# Gender issues



## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

There is a subject that is very big on Twitter but which has not, afaik, been discussed on here, and that is the current debate around gender and trans issues. 

I come from a position of left wing/liberal on most things, but am very concerned at the move to allow anyone who self-identifies as a woman to be given free access to women-only spaces. 

Your thoughts please.....


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

What does 'women only spaces' mean ... like public toilets, changing rooms, etc? I can't imagine many men dressing up as women simply to enter these places but then what does 'identify' mean?


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> What does 'women only spaces' mean ... like public toilets, changing rooms, etc? I can't imagine many men dressing up as women simply to enter these places but then what does 'identify' mean?


Women's refuges etc

I can. But that sort of man won't be identifying as female for genuine reasons and that is the danger. That's why it needs to be discussed. I'm far more worried about how discussions are being stopped so blatantly. As usual, there is no issue with 'genuine' cases, but those that aren't genuine...


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I've been burned by this topic before on PF... I've got to go out shortly but will see if I'm brave enough to contribute later.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

SpringDance said:


> Women's refuges etc
> 
> I can. But that sort of man won't be identifying as female for genuine reasons and that is the danger. That's why it needs to be discussed. I'm far more worried about how discussions are being stopped so blatantly. As usual, there is no issue with 'genuine' cases, but those that aren't genuine...


So is it happening now? Is this really a real worry? Sorry, am not being dismissive or anything like that as I genuinely don't know if this is or could be a problem?

How is it dealt with atm? Are genuine trans women turned away or accepted? Is it purely case-by-case assessment?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I've never understood the whole 'thing' about separate women's and men's toilets anyway. Remove the label off the door and no one would give a monkeys. I'm sure most of us have used/used mix sex toilets at work, at events, at festivals etc. I've never been keen on the whole undertone of men being potential perverts, or transwomen being something immediately to be suspicious of. But I suppose society focuses on the minority who go about their business with no bother rather than the overwhelming majority.......


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

labradrk said:


> I've never understood the whole 'thing' about separate women's and men's toilets anyway. Remove the label off the door and no one would give a monkeys. I'm sure most of us have used/used mix sex toilets at work, at events, at festivals etc. I've never been keen on the whole undertone of men being potential perverts, or transwomen being something immediately to be suspicious of. But I suppose society focuses on the minority who go about their business with no bother rather than the overwhelming majority.......


I'd rather have separate bathrooms! When me and my OH have to use public toilets, I think womens are generally ok and don't smell too bad. OH hates using the men's, as he says they are often dirty and smell awful :Wtf


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

HarlequinCat said:


> I'd rather have separate bathrooms! When me and my OH have to use public toilets, I think womens are generally ok and don't smell too bad. OH hates using the men's, as he says they are often dirty and smell awful :Wtf


Oh don't get me wrong, I don't think they shouldn't be separate, but I also don't get why it's such a big deal. How clean they are (or not) is usually a reflection of how often they are cleaned in relation to how much they are used. Public toilets (like in a park or whatever) are often vile regardless of the gender.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I went to The Pavillion at Brighton recently & their loos had some sort of sign on which I can't remember the exact image or wording but it was to imply they were non-gender specific (or something like that). Country bumpkin that I am had to ask someone if I could use them as I wasn't sure what it meant at first glance


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> So is it happening now? Is this really a real worry? Sorry, am not being dismissive or anything like that as I genuinely don't know if this is or could be a problem?
> 
> How is it dealt with atm? Are genuine trans women turned away or accepted? Is it purely case-by-case assessment?


Yes, there are men right now trying to get into women's spaces for all the wrong reasons. These men are not the same as trans men. Without being able to have the debate, it is not possible to separate the issues and really talk about it.

What about Ian Huntley trying to get into a women's prison? Maybe he doesn't pose a danger to women (!) but he wants to escape the male prison... should he be ale to by jumping on a bandwagon?

There are two issues, the rights of trans men, which I fully support and the issue of being so free and open that potential problems are not considered properly (sorry, struggling to word it correctly).


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

Of course not ALL men are a threat. I'm talking about being careful not to open the door to the small majority of men who will abuse the situation.


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

labradrk said:


> But I suppose society focuses on the minority who go about their business with no bother rather than the overwhelming majority.......


No. It's about focusing on the minority that will abuse the rights of another minority....... One minority needs supporting. The other needs ensuring that they won't use and abuse the rights of the other for their own gain.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm liking more and more the idea of gender fluidity and removing labels altogether. Creeps will always be creeps and I think that should be seen as a separate issue. I don't love it being lumped in as an add on to gender 'issues'.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

SpringDance said:


> No. It's about focusing on the minority that will abuse the rights of another minority....... One minority needs supporting. The other needs ensuring that they won't use and abuse the rights of the other for their own gain.


Which they'll do anyway if they are that way inclined.


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

labradrk said:


> Which they'll do anyway if they are that way inclined.


No point helping them and making it easier for them, is there? We should be making it harder for them. Preventing them.


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

havoc said:


> I'm liking more and more the idea of gender fluidity and removing labels altogether. Creeps will always be creeps and I think that should be seen as a separate issue. I don't love it being lumped in as an add on to gender 'issues'.


See, I think the gender debate/ gender fluidity polarises things more than ever. I never felt particularly 'female ' as opposed to 'male'. Never really thought about anyone other than a person. I feel these debates tend to put pop,e into boxes more than ever. I don't want to be ouninto anbox, I just want to get on with life. (Not sure whether we're saying the same thing or not).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

SpringDance said:


> I don't want to be ouninto anbox, I just want to get on with life. (Not sure whether we're saying the same thing or not).


I want everyone to be able to get on with life however they choose as long as it doesn't hurt me. That may at times challenge me, it may even sometimes make me uncomfortable - that's my problem. Just because someone chooses to be different doesn't mean they do so for nefarious reasons. I'm far more likely to be the victim of a 'respectable' looking criminal.


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

I am not talking about trans people! This is not my point. This is what people struggle to understand. My concern is that without proper debate, we could be causing as many problems as we solve. Slowing down and thinking through a solution would mean that potential problems are headed off.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

SpringDance said:


> I am not talking about trans people! This is not my point. This is what people struggle to understand. My concern is that without proper debate, we could be causing as many problems as we solve. Slowing down and thinking through a solution would mean that potential problems are headed off.


What potential problems? This may be a glass half full/glass half empty thing.


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

I've already said. 'Bad' men using the laws to get themselves into women's safe spaces for 'bad' reasons. Nothing to do with the rights of 'genuine' trans people.

And at this point, we're going to go round in circles.

What frustrates me about this debate is the fact that it's to polarised and either/or.

Either you have to fully support everything about trans rights or you are a trans hating bigot. It seems that shades of grey are not allowed in the conversation. That you are not allowed to support trans rights without also wanting to protect the rights of vulnerable women. Not saying that there will absolutely definitely be a problem, but I want to be able to discuss it.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

picaresque said:


> I've been burned by this topic before on PF... I've got to go out shortly but will see if I'm brave enough to contribute later.


Apologies - didn't know it had been previously discussed. It's partly in response to the recent complaint that the forum is 'too quiet' and 'boring' (although it is genuinely a topic I'm engaged with, because it keeps making me re-evaluate what I think, which I see as a positive thing).


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

SpringDance said:


> I've already said. 'Bad' men using the laws to get themselves into women's safe spaces for 'bad' reasons. Nothing to do with the rights of 'genuine' trans people.
> 
> And at this point, we're going to go round in circles.
> 
> ...


Exactly how I feel.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

havoc said:


> I'm liking more and more the idea of gender fluidity and removing labels altogether. Creeps will always be creeps and I think that should be seen as a separate issue. I don't love it being lumped in as an add on to gender 'issues'.


'Gender fluidity' is great. Biological sex and gender are completely different things however. I don't identify with the 'feminine gender' in the slightest. And yet somehow, I remain a woman. Frankly I find the current trans movement is itself obsessed with labels.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

One of the recent issues that's arisen is in the Guiding movement (according to Twitter; I have no inside sources): they want to be equality-minded and so have mooted the idea that men who self-identify as women can be helpers at Guide meetings and events. Clearly, this raises some potentially worrying possibilities.

Ian Huntley, the school caretaker who murdered two little girls, is saying that he now identifies as a woman, and is thus demanding to be moved to a women's prison.....

Some people have argued that a man would not be prepared to wear make-up and dress as a woman simply to get access to women/girls - this is complete nonsense; a determined abuser will plan and plot for years if necessary, and will stop at nothing to achieve his intention.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> Apologies - didn't know it had been previously discussed. It's partly in response to the recent complaint that the forum is 'too quiet' and 'boring' (although it is genuinely a topic I'm engaged with, because it keeps making me re-evaluate what I think, which I see as a positive thing).


No worries, I'm glad to see it brought up by someone else tbh as the last time I was very much on my own and called a bigot and hateful and my sanity was called into question... because I know there is no such thing as a female penis.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If Ian Huntley thinks he’ll have an easier time in a women’s prison then by definition he doesn’t truly identify as a woman.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

There is already a trans identified male child rapist in a women's prison in this country
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39337805


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

havoc said:


> If Ian Huntley thinks he'll have an easier time in a women's prison then by definition he doesn't truly identify as a woman.


The problem, and presumably the reason this thread was started, is that under self ID which is likely to be made into law and already is in practise in many organisations, any man can say he's a woman and be accepted as one. This is obviously a crazy idea open to abuse and puts women, children and genuine trans people at risk.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Maybe it's my age, but there is no way I would be happy to use gender free toilets. To come out of a cubicle and to be confronted by a whole load of men is not something I would ever get used to, so that is a huge no way whatsoever for me and I wouldn't use them at all.
Self ID is a worrying issue, would a man saying he identifies as a woman be allowed into a womans refuge for instance? Many of the women in refuges have been violently abused by men and can only feel safe in the refuge, to allow a man to reside there just because he says he identifies as a woman is not going to make any of the women there feel as safe as they did before. Is that fair?


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

picaresque said:


> No worries, I'm glad to see it brought up by someone else tbh as the last time I was very much on my own and called a bigot and hateful and my sanity was called into question... because I know there is no such thing as a female penis.


You are not a bigot and you are not insane
I may be old fashioned but to my mind all the time a body has a penis attached to it, it is male, until such times it is surgically removed even if the owner thinks otherwise
It can still be used to abuse people


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Siskin said:


> Self ID is a worrying issue, would a man saying he identifies as a woman be allowed into a womans refuge for instance? Many of the women in refuges have been violently abused by men and can only feel safe in the refuge, to allow a man to reside there just because he says he identifies as a woman is not going to make any of the women there feel as safe as they did before. Is that fair?


This is already happening I'm afraid. In the US (or possibly Canada) fairly recently two homeless women were kicked out of a women's shelter for objecting to sharing accommodation with a pre-op transwoman. I'll see if I can find a link to the story.



Bisbow said:


> You are not a bigot and you are not insane
> I may be old fashioned but to my mind all the time a body has a penis attached to it, it is male, until such times it is surgically removed even if the owner thinks otherwise
> It can still be used to abuse people


Thank you, good to hear I'm not mad


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Aren't mix gender toilets used elsewhere without issues?

I don't see a problem - if someone has it in their mind to abuse someone, they aren't only going to do it if they can pretend to be another gender.

Having a penis - doesn't automatically make someone dangerous. Likewise having a vagina - doesn't automatically make someone dangerous either.

Having been in a women's refuge as a child - they don't just let all and sundry in because they say so. There are safe places for men too because they can also be abused - it's not just a woman's issue.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

ShibaPup said:


> Aren't mix gender toilets used elsewhere without issues?
> 
> I don't see a problem - if someone has it in their mind to abuse someone, they aren't only going to do it if they can pretend to be another gender.
> 
> ...


Where are the mixed gender toilets? I have no recollection of using any. I'm not expecting to be physically abused by some bloke in the loo, I just don't want them to be there in what I consider a woman's space, maybe rightly or wrongly but that's who I feel and so do many of my age, or do we not have any rights.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Siskin said:


> Maybe it's my age, but there is no way I would be happy to use gender free toilets.


I'm not a fan either, but then I used to clean toilets for a living and some men seem to lose any sense of aim when they aren't responsible for the mess they leave behind!:Vomit:Hungover

I'm not sure what the OP is getting at TBH.:Bored I'm happy for people to call themselves whatever they want but I don't think that 'self identifying' is enough for situations where you are going to be near vulnerable people or in positions of power.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

ShibaPup said:


> Aren't mix gender toilets used elsewhere without issues?
> 
> I don't see a problem - if someone has it in their mind to abuse someone, they aren't only going to do it if they can pretend to be another gender.
> 
> ...


Our local women's aid works to help both women and men who are victims of domestic abuse. I think because of the name people presume it doesn't help the men.

What I do wonder and going off tangent her slightly... In one town I go to if you go to toilets there is information on cubicle doors always... Domestic violence related numbers please call. I guess this means if you are struggling it's an ideal place to grab the information in private... Do wonder if this same information is there in the men's toilets. It should be! Ideal ramblings off topic!


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

picaresque said:


> This is already happening I'm afraid. In the US (or possibly Canada) fairly recently two homeless women were kicked out of a women's shelter for objecting to sharing accommodation with a pre-op transwoman. I'll see if I can find a link to the story.


https://globalnews.ca/news/3300518/concerns-over-transgender-client-at-okanagan-shelter/


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> Our local women's aid works to help both women and men who are victims of domestic abuse. I think because of the name people presume it doesn't help the men.
> 
> What I do wonder and going off tangent her slightly... In one town I go to if you go to toilets there is information on cubicle doors always... Domestic violence related numbers please call. I guess this means if you are struggling it's an ideal place to grab the information in private... Do wonder if this same information is there in the men's toilets. It should be! Ideal ramblings off topic!


The only time I used a men's toilet, purely by accident you understand, was when I was about 20 out with a boyfriend and desperate to go. He drove me to some toilets at a bus station at around about midnight, dry dark and not a soul about. I ran in and into a cubicle. As I was sat there I started to read the graffiti on the door and was rather shocked that such graphic things about women should be in a women's loo. It was only as I came out and spotted the urinals.........

So that's what's in men's loos it seems, very graphic graffiti.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Siskin said:


> The only time I used a men's toilet, purely by accident you understand, was when I was about 20 out with a boyfriend and desperate to go. He drove me to some toilets at a bus station at around about midnight, dry dark and not a soul about. I ran in and into a cubicle. As I was sat there I started to read the graffiti on the door and was rather shocked that such graphic things about women should be in a women's loo. It was only as I came out and spotted the urinals.........
> 
> So that's what's in men's loos it seems, very graphic graffiti.


There is one pub in my town that I nearly always walk in the men's toilet...and have to go errr sorry..then get some drunken yob saying ahhh you got the wrong toilet..although it's a common occurrence most women do it...as they swapped men and women over years ago...can tell I don't go out much!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> I'm happy for people to call themselves whatever they want but I don't think that 'self identifying' is enough for situations where you are going to be near vulnerable people or in positions of power.


Don't people have to be checked anyway for that - male or female? Self identification doesn't exempt anyone from such checks.

I get that someone who has never been to places or events where the loos are the loos cannot fathom such a thing working but it's one of those things people get used to. In small workplaces it's the norm, at festival campsites it's the norm - all sorts of places. Nobody makes a big thing of it.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Siskin said:


> Where are the mixed gender toilets? I have no recollection of using any. I'm not expecting to be physically abused by some bloke in the loo, I just don't want them to be there in what I consider a woman's space, maybe rightly or wrongly but that's who I feel and so do many of my age, or do we not have any rights.


Apparently they are trialling them in schools in Scotland... but they are in some US states, Canada, China, mainland Europe.

They are often at festivals here too or places where the space is too small for gender specific toilets.

It's not always about trans people - often it's simply to save space or to reduce waiting times or to be more inclusive for those who need help from a friend, family member or carer, such as disabled people, elderly or children.

I dislike all public toilets equally. I don't understand why the genitalia you have should determine where you go to the toilet - a toilet, is a toilet.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Regarding 'gender' (or sex) segregated toilets, in many parts of the developing world women and girls don't have adequate access to public toilets for females and are subject to sexual assault and rape as a result. We will acknowledge the risk they face and their need for their own spaces but the western world is supposed to be different? Is the suggestion that western men are less likely to rape? That's kind of dodgy ground.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-11...lets-leaves-women-vulnerable-rape-and-attacks

Also, transwomen are said to be unable to use men's toilets due to fear of violence. Why is their fear legitimate but ours not? Gender neutral toilets generally are just a bad idea (and don't say 'but everyone has a gender neutral bathroom in their house hurr hurr', I don't think it needs explaining why that is a stupid comparison). For me anyway I am far less concerned about toilets, more about prisons etc, this is a area where vulnerable women are really being thrown under the bus. Twas ever thus.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

picaresque said:


> https://globalnews.ca/news/3300518/concerns-over-transgender-client-at-okanagan-shelter/


I struggle with this simply because the trans people I know really are to me female rather than male. Not that I know huge amounts of trans people.. you can count on one hand those I know personally.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

picaresque said:


> For me anyway I am far less concerned about toilets, more about prisons etc, this is a area where vulnerable women are really being thrown under the bus.


On the Huntley thing I'm sort of with you there in that my first thought when it was mentioned was that he has history of manipulating vulnerable women and he probably is arrogant enough to believe that's what he'll continue to do given half a chance.


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

I don't believe that an individual that has a penis is a woman. (Or that someone with ovaries,uterus etc is a man). 
I will always respect someone's choices on what their gender is, but I don't identify as a gender. 

I believe that self-ID means exactly that, people will be able to tick a box and legally be classified as the opposite sex. Self-ID will exempt people from any checks. If a person with a penis can legally be a woman, what check could possibly be valid?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Biffo said:


> Self-ID will exempt people from any checks


It will not exempt them from the same checks everyone else has to complete to work with vulnerable people or children.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

havoc said:


> It will not exempt them from the same checks everyone else has to complete to work with vulnerable people or children.


I suppose that's the crux of the matter. If you believe in gender equality then there are going to be very few situations where your gender is going to be relevant.
In the case of prisons I would imagine someone would have undergone psychological evaluation before they could be sent to another prison.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

picaresque said:


> Regarding 'gender' (or sex) segregated toilets, in many parts of the developing world women and girls don't have adequate access to public toilets for females and are subject to sexual assault and rape as a result. We will acknowledge the risk they face and their need for their own spaces but the western world is supposed to be different? Is the suggestion that western men are less likely to rape? That's kind of dodgy ground.
> 
> https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-11...lets-leaves-women-vulnerable-rape-and-attacks
> 
> Also, transwomen are said to be unable to use men's toilets due to fear of violence. Why is their fear legitimate but ours not? Gender neutral toilets generally are just a bad idea (and don't say 'but everyone has a gender neutral bathroom in their house hurr hurr', I don't think it needs explaining why that is a stupid comparison). For me anyway I am far less concerned about toilets, more about prisons etc, this is a area where vulnerable women are really being thrown under the bus. Twas ever thus.


I don't think anyone bats an eyelid at the trans lady who uses the women's toilet in the local pub I go to infrequently. She's dressed impeccably as a woman. Guessing she's probably about 60.. I have no idea if she's had a sex change but I think some men would be put out if she used the male toilets and would probably get a barrage of abuse for it if am honest. I don't know her personally but she smiles at everyone who passes, seems to have many friends.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There are workplaces already where interviewees or new employees are asked to tick boxes stating what gender they consider themselves etc. To be honest that's about as far as it goes - nobody gets into involved discussions about which loo they're going to use etc. Tick the box - get on with doing your job - no big deal.


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

havoc said:


> It will not exempt them from the same checks everyone else has to complete to work with vulnerable people or children.


 Absolutely, but, for instance, that won't cover people for are patients in same sex hospital wards. There will be no checks for anyone using these services.

And DBS or other checks aside, some people would still prefer to have a same sex nurse, or personal care provider, which will be meaningless.



catz4m8z said:


> I suppose that's the crux of the matter. If you believe in gender equality then there are going to be very few situations where your gender is going to be relevant.
> In the case of prisons I would imagine someone would have undergone psychological evaluation before they could be sent to another prison.


But I don't think gender is relevant, sex is relevant. And under self-ID legally there would be no medical evaluation. If a person states they are a gender, then they are.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Biffo said:


> And DBS or other checks aside, some people would still prefer to have a same sex nurse, or personal care provider, which will be meaningless.


Do people currently get to choose their nurse in NHS hospitals? My father is in a private care home and there's no chance of demanding a same sex carer. I do get that people might prefer certain things but if they aren't available now then what would change?


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> I don't think anyone bats an eyelid at the trans lady who uses the women's toilet in the local pub I go to infrequently. She's dressed impeccably as a woman. Guessing she's probably about 60.. I have no idea if she's had a sex change but I think some men would be put out if she used the male toilets and would probably get a barrage of abuse for it if am honest. I don't know her personally but she smiles at everyone who passes, seems to have many friends.


Please don't think that I want genuine (and I'm going to use the old-fashioned term here) transsexuals, who have dysphoria and just want to get on with their lives in peace living as women to not be able to use women's spaces. It's more some of the modern and frankly quite scary transactivists (the 'I Punch TERFs' kind) and autogynephiles that I have a problem with accepting as women, and of course the whole idea of self ID.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

All they need to do with the 'loo issue' is to start building ones where the toilet and handbasin are in the same cubicle which opens directly into a public area. Many places already have this. It makes sense for many reasons.

I'm more worried about the risks to vulnerable people from those who would claim to 'self identify' in order to prey on them. As others have said, anyone who doesn't 100% support any and every self identification gets labelled as a bigot, which doesn't bode well for anyone who is being abused by someone in this position and needs help. I can foresee situations where people will pretend to identify as the opposite gender to give them opportunities for abuse or manipulation and those in charge will be so terrified of being seen as discriminatory that they won't dare do anything. Workplaces, hospitals, prisons, hostels...

I'm also concerned by the number of young children who are supposed to identify as another gender and whose parents want them to be able to transition while they are still children. I suspect 5 year olds who say that want to be a boy or a girl are really saying that they want to be able to do the same things/play with the same toys/wear the same clothes as the boys/girls they see around them. When I was a little girl, I 'wanted to be a boy' because I hated dresses, dolls and pink and loved trainsets, dungarees and climbing trees. Boys had more fun and were allowed greater freedom in their behaviour. Back then, I was labelled 'tomboy' and left to get on with my life. These days, I'd probably have people campaigning for me to be helped to transition, with disastrous results!


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

havoc said:


> Do people currently get to choose their nurse in NHS hospitals? My father is in a private care home and there's no chance of demanding a same sex carer. I do get that people might prefer certain things but if they aren't available now then what would change?


A patient at an NHS GP can currently choose a male or female doctor or nurse to see. Smear tests, prostate exam, IUD etc. It was about that type of care I was referring. In a hospital I don't know if this would be possible or not, I believe people can choose to not have a male midwife though.

But again, I am talking about other patients, so other in-patients on a ward for example. Not health care professionals. My gynaecologist is male and I have no issue with that. It would be ridiculous to think he had studied and worked for years to become a gynaecologist oncologist so that he could then deviously misgender himself and get access to women!

It is not so ridiculous to think that a person with a penis insisting that they are a woman is less than genuine.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

CuddleMonster said:


> I'm also concerned by the number of young children who are supposed to identify as another gender and whose parents want them to be able to transition while they are still children


And i am with you there. Boys shouldn't be allowed to wear pink dresses to school - any more than girls should. Uniforms should be gender neutral and rules about jewellery/make up etc. should apply to all. A bit of common sense takes a lot of drama and panic out of any situation.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Biffo said:


> It is not so ridiculous to think that a person with a penis insisting that they are a woman is less than genuine.


Not that they are a woman but that they identify as a woman. Just because we have anatomical definitions doesn't mean there aren't other factors at play. Who knows what affects brain chemistry in a developing foetus? Between those of us happy in the skin we're in and those absolutely convinced they were born in the wrong body there may be many levels of questioning.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Biffo said:


> But again, I am talking about other patients, so other in-patients on a ward for example


Now I really do get the theory of what you're saying but in the real world patients are surrounded by strangers they have no control over - other patients' visitors. Nobody bats an eyelid at men visiting female wards and medical staff continue to treat patients just drawing curtains round.


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

@havoc your statement that transwomen ( or men etc) are not woman would be labelled as trans phobic and trans exclusionary. Trans women are real women.

Morning on a hospital ward, curtains are whipped open. Sitting in gown having breakfast, shuffle to shower in gown or towel. Dressed or pyjamas back on. I for one don't wear a bra in hospital as the iv thingy in the arm means you can't get it on or off. And yes I would feel self conscious in a bed with a male patient opposite me or next to me.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

havoc said:


> And i am with you there. Boys shouldn't be allowed to wear pink dresses to school - any more than girls should. Uniforms should be gender neutral and rules about jewellery/make up etc. should apply to all. A bit of common sense takes a lot of drama and panic out of any situation.


Are school unforms gender neutral though? For example there is a slight variation between boys/girls blazers not just the way they fasten but at the back too... I have known of bullying incidents in schools which have been dealt with simply because a child has worn a hand me down blazer and it's the wrong gender... I think many things are hard to be gender neutral per se


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

lullabydream said:


> I think many things are hard to be gender neutral per se


Absolutely but it's what we should be aiming for. We don't have to have blazers that button at all. We don't have to have blazers at all.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

picaresque said:


> Please don't think that I want genuine (and I'm going to use the old-fashioned term here) transsexuals, who have dysphoria and just want to get on with their lives in peace living as women to not be able to use women's spaces. It's more some of the modern and frankly quite scary transactivists (the 'I Punch TERFs' kind) and autogynephiles that I have a problem with accepting as women, and of course the whole idea of self ID.


I actually find it quite scary how trans seems to be someone of a 'phase' to some people... You only have to flick through YouTube to see 'why I am detransitioning' videos..there are many. I feel there either isn't the support or its actually people are fickel..and I honestly feel fickel is a common denominator.

I think you are going to get the lowest of the low do anything to get their kicks..


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Biffo said:


> @havoc your statement that transwomen ( or men etc) are not woman would be labelled as trans phobic and trans exclusionary. Trans women are real women


Fair enough. Should that concern me


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I think a lot of people are unaware of what we're supposed to accept as fact now re: transgender. They think of lovely Hayley from Coronation Street who had fully transitioned and just wanted to be allowed to live happily and have the same rights as everybody else. Nobody should oppose this. However there are very vocal transactivists who insist that biological sex isn't real, women can have penises and men can give birth (pregnant women should now be referred to as pregnant people to avoid offence). The Female in FGM is offensive to them. Lesbians who are sexually and romantically attracted to females are called bigots and other slurs for not wanting to sleep with transwomen. Google the Cotton Ceiling. How is this progressive? Funnily enough the right-on leftie bros who insist transwomen are women are allowed to make a distinction when it comes to their own sex lives. It's Orwellian.

And don't get me started on children being effectively sterilised by puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones when they're too young to consent to anything else (but this is fine).


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

picaresque said:


> Please don't think that I want genuine (and I'm going to use the old-fashioned term here) transsexuals, who have dysphoria and just want to get on with their lives in peace living as women to not be able to use women's spaces. It's more some of the modern and frankly quite scary transactivists (the 'I Punch TERFs' kind) and autogynephiles that I have a problem with accepting as women, and of course the whole idea of self ID.


Again, exactly this.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

picaresque said:


> I think a lot of people are unaware of what we're supposed to accept as fact now re: transgender. They think of lovely Hayley from Coronation Street who had fully transitioned and just wanted to be allowed to live happily and have the same rights as everybody else. Nobody should oppose this. However there are very vocal transactivists who insist that biological sex isn't real, women can have penises and men can give birth (pregnant women should now be referred to as pregnant people to avoid offence). The Female in FGM is offensive to them. Lesbians who are sexually and romantically attracted to females are called bigots and other slurs for not wanting to sleep with transwomen. Google the Cotton Ceiling. How is this progressive? Funnily enough the right-on leftie bros who insist transwomen are women are allowed to make a distinction when it comes to their own sex lives. It's Orwellian.
> 
> And don't get me started on children being effectively sterilised by puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones when they're too young to consent to anything else (but this is fine).


Quite frankly all that is totally scary and worries the life out of me


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

picaresque said:


> I think a lot of people are unaware of what we're supposed to accept as fact now re: transgender. They think of lovely Hayley from Coronation Street who had fully transitioned and just wanted to be allowed to live happily and have the same rights as everybody else. Nobody should oppose this. However there are very vocal transactivists who insist that biological sex isn't real, women can have penises and men can give birth (pregnant women should now be referred to as pregnant people to avoid offence). The Female in FGM is offensive to them. Lesbians who are sexually and romantically attracted to females are called bigots and other slurs for not wanting to sleep with transwomen. Google the Cotton Ceiling. How is this progressive? Funnily enough the right-on leftie bros who insist transwomen are women are allowed to make a distinction when it comes to their own sex lives. It's Orwellian.
> 
> And don't get me started on children being effectively sterilised by puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones when they're too young to consent to anything else (but this is fine).


And again, this! (Are we related??!!)


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Siskin said:


> Quite frankly all that is totally scary and worries the life out of me


I'm hoping people are becoming more aware now of the reality of what's happening and there will be some resistance (note: by this I don't mean abuse and harassment of trans people or the scaling back of their rights, just that women and children won't be thrown under the bus to prop up some of the bizarre ideology).



Blaise in Surrey said:


> And again, this! (Are we related??!!)


Haha, just people with critical thinking skills by the looks of it.


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

Should we then punish and blame transwomen for wanting to live their life comfortably out of fear of abusive men with horrible intentions, or should we be going at the matter with a different mindset and instead be working on methods to punish the rapists and predators by creating safe spaces for both transwomen and cisgender women? I think the answer should be pretty clear.

I think it’s also worth mentioning that trans individuals experience a plethora of their own issues in day to day life such as sexual harassment and abuse, and I find it would be more helpful to have a mindset of working to protect both transwomen and ciswomen instead of working to exclude transwomen for the sake of ciswomen. This is a good example of what being a trans inclusive feminist is about.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

soya said:


> Should we then punish and blame transwomen for wanting to live their life comfortably out of fear of abusive men with horrible intentions,


Who on this thread said that? It's comments like this IMO that make people afraid to air their own (usually) valid views.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

While I agree with @soya on most of the above (it's so easy to blame everyone but the perpetrators) I just have to say this: I am not a CISwoman, and neither was I a 'pregnant person' when expecting my daughter!


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

MilleD said:


> Who on this thread said that? It's comments like this IMO that make people afraid to air their own (usually) valid views.


Air away, I think it's valid for me to offer my opinions on the matter just as well as yours, as by not allowing honest transwomen into safe spaces for women while they experience so much hate and danger themselves on the daily, I believe this is punishing them for the act of men, as it's a decision made by the fear of man doing something with bad intentions.

I didn't point fingers, I simply offered my opinion just as others have offered theirs.


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> While I agree with @soya on most of the above (it's so easy to blame everyone but the perpetrators) I just have to say this: I am not a CISwoman, and neither was I a 'pregnant person' when expecting my daughter!


CIS just means you identify with the gender you were assigned with at birth. I have no idea what gender you identify as, nor do I expect or need you to tell me. I want to add my post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a thought thrown onto the thread as anyone else has.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

soya said:


> CIS just means you identify with the gender you were assigned with at birth. I have no idea what gender you identify as, nor do I expect or need you to tell me. I want to add my post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a thought thrown onto the thread as anyone else has.


1. Gender isn't assigned at birth, the midwife/doctor doesn't say 'right well I've delivered three girls today so I'll make this one a boy'. The sex of the baby is recognised and noted (intersex conditions of course do exist but they are not the same as transgender).

2. I do not identify with any gender least of all the female one which ultimately is nothing but a bunch of stereotypes. However I am female, that is a biological fact. I'm with @Blaise in Surrey, don't call me cis, it implies that I'm happy with all the bullshit that comes with being a woman.


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

soya said:


> Should we then punish and blame transwomen for wanting to live their life comfortably out of fear of abusive men with horrible intentions, or should we be going at the matter with a different mindset and instead be working on methods to punish the rapists and predators by creating safe spaces for both transwomen and cisgender women? .


No one anywhere has talked about punishing transwomen. What about transmen? Surely they are the most at risk group as they will need access to men only spaces. Why is the focus so much on transwomen?

Also I am not a cis woman. I was female at birth and spent my teen years miserable as I developed into a short curvy women, who was no longer fastest kid in the school, or as strong as my class mates. I am happy as I am, but I want to be stronger and have the physical advantages men have. I am heterosexual. I know a lot of people like this, who are happy as they are biologically, but are not stereotypically feminine and are tomboys, or whatever the adult equivalent is. I lift weights, I live in jeans and usually my husbands t shirts. My all time favourite person that I wanted to look like as a kid was Vasquez from Aliens 2. I am a woman. Not cis. I'm an individual and it's offensives to box me up like this to fit some theory about gender.


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

Biffo said:


> No one anywhere has talked about punishing transwomen. What about transmen? Surely they are the most at risk group as they will need access to men only spaces. Why is the focus so much on transwomen?
> 
> Also I am not a cis woman. I was female at birth and spent my teen years miserable as I developed into a short curvy women, who was no longer fastest kid in the school, or as strong as my class mates. I am happy as I am, but I want to be stronger and have the physical advantages men have. I am heterosexual. I know a lot of people like this, who are happy as they are biologically, but are not stereotypically feminine and are tomboys, or whatever the adult equivalent is. I lift weights, I live in jeans and usually my husbands t shirts. My all time favourite person that I wanted to look like as a kid was Vasquez from Aliens 2. I am a woman. Not cis. I'm an individual and it's offensives to box me up like this to fit some theory about gender.


Because the original post was regarding transwomen going into female spaces I thought? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ah I see. I apologize if I offended you, it wasn't my intention. Luckily gender is a fluid thing, and you're free to identify however you'd like. Cisgender is simply the technical term, however if it's offensive to others here I can find a different word to use. I think I relate personally to how you feel about your own gender.


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

The first time I was allowed to go to the hairdresser on my own as a kid I had all my hair cut off like hers. It was amazing. Just thinking about it now puts a huge grin on my face. My mother was past furious, apparently I had such pretty hair.


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

Biffo said:


> The first time I was allowed to go to the hairdresser on my own as a kid I had all my hair cut off like hers. It was amazing. Just thinking about it now puts a huge grin on my face. My mother was past furious, apparently I had such pretty hair.


I shaved my head into a buzz cut this last year and my poor nana tried to hide the shaver from me. She ended her fury by confessing I actually "had the face" for a shaved head. Gotta love them!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Biffo said:


> No one anywhere has talked about punishing transwomen. What about transmen? Surely they are the most at risk group as they will need access to men only spaces. Why is the focus so much on transwomen?
> .


I think its limiting to just include trans people and not those who just identify as another gender. Maybe someone feels the wrong gender but is scared of surgery or medical treatments so doesn't transition. Id hate to think they were victimised because they weren't taken seriously.



soya said:


> I shaved my head into a buzz cut this last year and my poor nana tried to hide the shaver from me. She ended her fury by confessing I actually "had the face" for a shaved head. Gotta love them!


Personally I go for long hair because you can tie it back and forget about it and chop it yourself! My identity is based on whatever is easiest! So no make up, trousers (a lot of blokes clothes actually coz they are comfy). I'm also asexual though so the whole confusion around gender often just passes me by!LOL


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

picaresque said:


> 1. Gender isn't assigned at birth, the midwife/doctor doesn't say 'right well I've delivered three girls today so I'll make this one a boy'. The sex of the baby is recognised and noted (intersex conditions of course do exist but they are not the same as transgender).


It is assigned in that it's determined only by physical characteristics. What if we discover at some point that there's more to it?


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

picaresque said:


> 1. Gender isn't assigned at birth, the midwife/doctor doesn't say 'right well I've delivered three girls today so I'll make this one a boy'. The sex of the baby is recognised and noted (intersex conditions of course do exist but they are not the same as transgender).
> 
> 2. I do not identify with any gender least of all the female one which ultimately is nothing but a bunch of stereotypes. However I am female, that is a biological fact. I'm with @Blaise in Surrey, don't call me cis, it implies that I'm happy with all the bullshit that comes with being a woman.


It's assigned by your genitals. That's what it means. If there's a better way I should be describing it, I'm all ears. Transgender is a spectrum, it just means you don't feel you were born with the correct gender or sex as society sees it. It also usually comes along with the mental disease body dysphoria and / or body dysmorphic disorder, in which individuals experience extreme discomfort, hatred, aversion, and dysphoria about the way their body looks in relation to the sex they were born as. IE, a trans male may feel extremely uncomfortable about having breasts and therefore use a binder or get surgery to feel more comfortable in their own body, their appearance, and in the clothing they wear. Not all people who identify as trans feel this way but most do.

Again, if you think there's a better way to describe this in this thread other than the terms I'm using or if you think it's offensive, I'm open to suggestions.

I don't believe the term cisgender is at all meant to override any woman's struggle or hurdles in being a woman, it's just a way to describe someone who feels comfortable with the sex and / or gender they were assigned with. I respect your aversions to being called cisgender however and won't refer to you as so.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

havoc said:


> It is assigned in that it's determined only by physical characteristics. What if we discover at some point that there's more to it?


Like what? A female brain (the idea of which has been used for millennia to oppress women)? A female soul?? This is where this stuff gets increasingly like religion. I'm supposed to take it all on faith.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> I think a lot of people are unaware of what we're supposed to accept as fact now re: transgender. They think of lovely Hayley from Coronation Street who had fully transitioned and just wanted to be allowed to live happily and have the same rights as everybody else. Nobody should oppose this. However there are very vocal transactivists who insist that biological sex isn't real, women can have penises and men can give birth (pregnant women should now be referred to as pregnant people to avoid offence). The Female in FGM is offensive to them. Lesbians who are sexually and romantically attracted to females are called bigots and other slurs for not wanting to sleep with transwomen. Google the Cotton Ceiling. How is this progressive? Funnily enough the right-on leftie bros who insist transwomen are women are allowed to make a distinction when it comes to their own sex lives. It's Orwellian.
> 
> And don't get me started on children being effectively sterilised by puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones when they're too young to consent to anything else (but this is fine).


I just Googled this & am actually quite shocked... I honestly had no idea that this was the sort of stuff people were getting all shouty about. That is truly unbelievable. How can people dictate to others how they should 'feel' or who they should be attracted to ....FFS this is scary stuff


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

picaresque said:


> Lesbians who are sexually and romantically attracted to females are called bigots and other slurs for not wanting to sleep with transwomen.


Don't forget men who aren't attracted to transwomen are transphobic apparently.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I do think it's a problem that just self identifying as a woman means that you are classed as a woman - I think that simplifies a complex issue. I saw this in The Times yesterday:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/93833/why-trans-on-wednesdays-activist-was-suspended-by-labour

That is a problem.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

They say there aren’t enough women fire officers, police officers etc. One way of solving positive discrimination I suppose. When employers fill out their forms showing that they don’t discriminate against women, the disabled, or none whites, they can just ask half of their staff to self identify. Yeah mate, you can have the job, but you have to say you’re a woman for our statistics.


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> I do think it's a problem that just self identifying as a woman means that you are classed as a woman - I think that simplifies a complex issue. I saw this in The Times yesterday:
> 
> http://www.theweek.co.uk/93833/why-trans-on-wednesdays-activist-was-suspended-by-labour
> 
> That is a problem.


I agree, there is a very important difference between being a woman and being a transwoman in society and I think there should be a distinction in relation to the protection those individuals receive based on their own respective struggles. Which wouldn't at all undermine either parties struggles, simply makes it more affective to protect them efficiently and in a way that makes sense as they do both experience oppression.


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

Elles said:


> They say there aren't enough women fire officers, police officers etc. One way of solving positive discrimination I suppose. When employers fill out their forms showing that they don't discriminate against women, the disabled, or none whites, they can just ask half of their staff to self identify. Yeah mate, you can have the job, but you have to say you're a woman for our statistics.


This would be a pretty extreme thing for an employer to do Id think? And easily someone could file for discrimination


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

MilleD said:


> Don't forget men who aren't attracted to transwomen are transphobic apparently.


I don't think many are claiming that. I'm more concerned about the fetishization of the trans community


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## Chellie (Jul 30, 2015)

I know someone who is ‘gender fluid’ and sometimes relates as a woman and sometimes a man depending on how ‘they’ (can’t say she or he as this is offensive but they sounds so impersonal) feel when they get up. They dress according to how they feel and use different names depending on whether they relate to female/male. Get the wrong name and you get a barrage of abuse and accused of being gender phobic. I couldn’t care less how ‘they’ want to relate but it’s too much hard work so I avoid contact if at all possible which is a shame.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It would, but if it’s legal there’d be nothing anyone could do about it. I believe that transgenders should be accepted as transgender and not discriminated against, but I don’t think men and women should just be swapping. If you’re trans say so.


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

Hmmm, I think a lot of what’s being looked at are the extremes, and there are extremes in any party so I don’t find it to be very helpful or necessary, and I personally haven’t experienced many extremes living in a very liberal, very trans positive area of the world.


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

Elles said:


> It would, but if it's legal there'd be nothing anyone could do about it. I believe that transgenders should be accepted as transgender and not discriminated against, but I don't think men and women should just be swapping. If you're trans say so.


I personally find that mindset to be harmful to those that would like to transition and feel comfortable in their lives and own bodies as the gender they feel they are. It's creating segregation I would think


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

Chellie said:


> I know someone who is 'gender fluid' and sometimes relates as a woman and sometimes a man depending on how 'they' (can't say she or he as this is offensive but they sounds so impersonal) feel when they get up. They dress according to how they feel and use different names depending on whether they relate to female/male. Get the wrong name and you get a barrage of abuse and accused of being gender phobic. I couldn't care less how 'they' want to relate but it's too much hard work so I avoid contact if at all possible which is a shame.


I've met some who are like this. The vast majority in my experience are not. I wouldn't bother being friends with someone like this if they were being abusive, that's a fair reaction and not everyone will get along, some people are less easy going than others and such is life. If someone was like this I'd think theyd have a difficult time making many friends, as would someone who behaved like this with any other situation


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

soya said:


> I personally find that mindset to be harmful to those that would like to transition and feel comfortable in their lives and own bodies as the gender they feel they are. It's creating segregation I would think


It's not creating segregation, any more than calling men and women, men and women is. Be comfortable in your skin as trans. Don't lie and say you think you're a woman therefore you are. Be who you are. There should be absolutely nothing wrong or shameful in being transgender, any more than I'm ashamed of being a woman.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Elles said:


> It's not creating segregation, any more than calling men and women, men and women is. Be comfortable in your skin as trans. Don't lie and say you think you're a woman therefore you are. Be who you are. There should be absolutely nothing wrong or shameful in being transgender, any more than I'm ashamed of being a woman.


Some trans people don't mind being called trans. Others hate it - they prefer to be known as the gender they identify with.

The recent Channel 4 documentary Genderquake was an eye-opener.


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

Elles said:


> It's not creating segregation, any more than calling men and women, men and women is. Be comfortable in your skin as trans. Don't lie and say you think you're a woman therefore you are. Be who you are. There should be absolutely nothing wrong or shameful in being transgender, any more than I'm ashamed of being a woman.


I don't think it's fair for one person to decide how any other should feel about themselves or bodies


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

interesting views and of course everyone is entitled
but i wonder how many of you, who are scared that transpeople are somehow abusers in disguise would refuse
a male gynaecologist 
a male midwife
a male nurse
a male carer who needs to bathe you or toilet you
would refuse to acknowledge a hermaphrodite who had been brought up as a boy, saying they actually identified as a woman, when old enough to choose?
Is Caster Semenya really to be seens as a man because she is XXY? she has TWO female genes, surely two outweigh one every time?

trans women ( in particular) dont want to abuse you, they want to BE you, too many blinkered views ( but again, youre entitled to your own, im not going to argue with you, its a futile exercise) but i do wish people would stop thinking Cissie and Ada
yes, at birth, there are two choices of gender and you are assigned one or the other, deep brain thinking, of your own sexuality and gender, are different things, and, yes you CAN have those thoughts a young as four, five or as old as 50, 60 + after many years of marriage
what next
no dogs,
no irish
no blacks
no trans

Im old enough to remember those signs and when homosexuality was illegal, now 50 something yrs on we look back with shame and horror
give it another few and we'll be doing the same re trans people


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Well... no one really checks our privates in private place?
So most transgender people simply go as they seem fit.

Just live and let live.Which also applies to any militant trans, fortunately majority are not. 
But yes, my friend who to work dresses as a man - and acts as “ he” , but at leisure wears frocks and hills complained that his work place has issues with his nail extensions - obviously cannot be taken off for work. He works as a plumber - so why cannot he have any nails he wants?

They are costly!!! Once done have to stay put for a month!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> interesting views and of course everyone is entitled
> but i wonder how many of you, who are scared that transpeople are somehow abusers in disguise would refuse
> a male gynaecologist
> a male midwife
> ...


In the past 18 months I have been examined by approximately I think 12 gynaecologists...mainly men all but 2 were women. However they all have a chaperone regardless of gender for safeguarding. Might just be my local authority but at least they are covering themselves.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

soya said:


> I don't think it's fair for one person to decide how any other should feel about themselves or bodies


I don't get what you mean? No one should be made to feel ashamed of who they are. To me it feels as though some feel the need to hide it and I don't think that's right. You'd rather I say it's ok that people feel ashamed about their bodies and who they are? And it's ok for society to make them feel that way? Say what you will, a transgender person is a transgender person, pretending otherwise is just that, pretending. In some parts of Thailand no one thinks twice about it. Anyway, it doesn't effect me personally. People can do what they like. I don't use public facilities, so I don't give a damn about those. I'd rather not be in a mixed hospital ward and my doctor is a woman. If trans want the choice to use female facilities, then so do I.

On the one hand it's all up in arms, trans women should be able to use female only facilities, but none trans females are being told facilities should be mixed as all men arent perverts. Make your mind up. :Hilarious


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

lullabydream said:


> they all have a chaperone regardless of gender for safeguarding. Might just be my local authority but at least they are covering themselves.


hope you reallise its for their safeguarding not yours?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> hope you reallise its for their safeguarding not yours?


Not strictly true... As a someone who used to teach safe guarding there is something called 'whistle while you work'. Safeguarding protects everyone.

This means as even a lower hierarchy worker you should always whistle if you see something inappropriate.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

soya said:


> I don't think many are claiming that. I'm more concerned about the fetishization of the trans community


Is this the theory that all men want to sleep with a transwoman by 'accident' and it be a sexual fantasy?

I read that on a transwoman's blog by the way, I didn't make it up in case anyone is offended.


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## soya (May 23, 2018)

MilleD said:


> Is this the theory that all men want to sleep with a transwoman by 'accident' and it be a sexual fantasy?
> 
> I read that on a transwoman's blog by the way, I didn't make it up in case anyone is offended.


Yeah that's not what I meant. I feel a little uncomfortable talking about another entire group of people, some of which may see this thread and feel alienated or gawked at, so I think I may opt out of the convo. Interesting thread


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

If we had true equality between genders would it not be obsolete to assign genders to individuals? It would become a totally private matter like other life choices which should only affect private relationships and it would become an infringement of privacy to make it a public issue. We would simply accept people as they want to be seen. As for abusers, I am afraid separate public facilities may give some women a sense of safety but unsegregated ones might mean that we could influence men into a more respectful attitude towards women by exposing laddish behaviour for the unacceptable relic it should be. Anything that fosters a clique mentality among groups of people tends to foster intolerant attitudes, all 'men only' or 'women only' organisations give a sense of entitlement and do nothing to promote tolerance and understanding.

I realise we are a long way from this utopia but hope we can dream of a better society and take steps towards achieving it.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Four very good articles on the subject which i have just used to educate myself on the up to date discussions ....

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ified-trans-women-all-women-shortlists-labour

I don't know a lot about 'women only spaces' as, like most men I suspect, I have very little interest in them. And I don't really care who uses the same toilet as I do so long as they are respectful but that would apply whatever gender the person was.

'Self- identity' is the catalyst that has re fuelled the debate. Allowing someone to decide how they see themselves without having to 'prove' it. How can you 'prove' how you feel anyway as it's something that actually is not scientifically, medically or emotionally provable. So I would welcome 'self identity'. I actually find it rather interesting.

Of course, if we are talking potential crimes - well, I don't welcome criminals and assault/attack/rape and threatening behaviour upon another person is a crime. But let's not look for a causal link where there is unlikely to be one.

And as for concern as to what 'might happen' if self- identity is allowed - I suspect many, many of you have already shared women only space with self- identified women (and men by the way) and with Transwomen and Transmen who have not fully transitioned. When I first met my wife (15 years ago) she had a (self identified) women friend as part of her crowd. They would all go off to the Ladies together. They were young and no one cared. 

J


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

planete said:


> If we had true equality between genders would it not be obsolete to assign genders to individuals? It would become a totally private matter like other life choices which should only affect private relationships and it would become an infringement of privacy to make it a public issue. We would simply accept people as they want to be seen. As for abusers, I am afraid separate public facilities may give some women a sense of safety but unsegregated ones might mean that we could influence men into a more respectful attitude towards women by exposing laddish behaviour for the unacceptable relic it should be. Anything that fosters a clique mentality among groups of people tends to foster intolerant attitudes, all 'men only' or 'women only' organisations give a sense of entitlement and do nothing to promote tolerance and understanding.
> 
> I realise we are a long way from this utopia but hope we can dream of a better society and take steps towards achieving it.


Very well put. What would be dangerous though is behaving as though the utopia were existent when it isn't. In other words, striving for true equality but without controls will expose vulnerable people. I would equally, say, like to see a world with no theft or cybercrime but, until then, I'll lock my doors and keep my passwords safe. This doesn't cast every stranger as a criminal but merely recognises that a certain percentage are and will seek to leverage vulnerabilities. Same reason I would likely not my allow my young daughters on a residential Guiding event knowing that there nowadays could be teenage lads sharing bedroom/bathroom facitlities with them.


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I don't know a lot about 'women only spaces' as, like most men I suspect, I have very little interest in them.
> 
> And as for concern as to what 'might happen' if self- identity is allowed - I suspect many, many of you have already shared women only space with self- identified women (and men by the way) and with Transwomen and Transmen who have not fully transitioned. When I first met my wife (15 years ago) she had a (self identified) women friend as part of her crowd. They would all go off to the Ladies together. They were young and no one cared.
> 
> J


I agree with you completely here. However I do not support self-ID. Any woman who has been sexually assaulted should have the legal right to insist upon a female dr, nurse, rape counselor. A transperson should absolutely not have to tell their employer that they are trans. Many trans people will also have experienced sexual assaults, they should have this legal,protection.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

mrs phas said:


> interesting views and of course everyone is entitled
> but i wonder how many of you, who are scared that transpeople are somehow abusers in disguise would refuse
> a male gynaecologist
> a male midwife
> ...


Firstly, I think you've missed the point - the concern is that if you only have to say you identify as female/male to be given access to female/male only spaces, it would be an easy matter for abusers to make that statement falsely so as to be given access to those spaces. E.g. any man could announce 'I identify as female' and march into a female changing room and probably no one would dare challenge him in case they were accused of a hate crime!

Secondly, many women would very much prefer to be treated by female doctors/nurses/carers. And some will actually decline to receive medical treatment if it cannot be provided by another woman. If it is made difficult or impossible for a female patient to guarantee being seen by a female doctor or nurse, some women may potentially die due to lack of medical care.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

planete said:


> If we had true equality between genders would it not be obsolete to assign genders to individuals? It would become a totally private matter like other life choices which should only affect private relationships and it would become an infringement of privacy to make it a public issue.


What do you mean by assigning genders? If you mean all the gendered rubbish boys and girs currently grow up with I am totally with you. Lets kids dress in what clothes they like, play with the toys they like, read the books they like, do the activities they like. Part of the problem imo with so called trans kids today is that a boy for example who likes dolls and wearing pretty clothes gets effectively punished for it by society and ends up feeling like maybe he should be a girl instead. Look up how common this sort of thing is in conservative societies, especially if it looks like a child might grow up to be gay. There are actually quite a lot of American conservative Christian families who are very proud and public about their transgender 'daughter'. They'd be less happy with a gay son.
If you mean ignoring biological sex, we could pretend but everyone will somehow magically know which class of people are the ones capable of pregnancy and birth and everything would carry on as normal...
Claim to eliminate 'gender' and hey, no sexism. Very convenient anyway.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Just to pick up on the point of wanting a doctor etc the same gender I absolutely believe people should be entitled to ask this without getting judged. Whether they be female or male. I wish people would think about it from the abuseds point of view sometimes, it doesn't matter to them that that male identifies as a female for example. If they have been abused/sexually assaulted by a male before then of course they may be scared to a degree to be around someone who still outwardly presents as male. Of course in cases where someone refuses a doctor of whatever gender it isn't always to do with reasons like this and I think its a good idea to ask their reasons why instead of just shouting bigot 

I support trans rights. I think there's room for discussions like these though, it may be uncomfortable but I think they are needed to achieve equality for all


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Chellie said:


> I know someone who is 'gender fluid' and sometimes relates as a woman and sometimes a man depending on how 'they' (can't say she or he as this is offensive but they sounds so impersonal) feel when they get up. They dress according to how they feel and use different names depending on whether they relate to female/male. *Get the wrong name and you get a barrage of abuse and accused of being gender phobic. *I couldn't care less how 'they' want to relate but it's too much hard work so I avoid contact if at all possible which is a shame.


I do think this is a problem, too. Especially with gender fluid people.

This is a subject that interests me a lot, mainly because I find myself questioning my own gender identity a lot - or did, not so much now (this might just be me, but I find sexuality is a completely separate subject - I know full well that I'm a-sexual). On the one hand, on a personal note, if there are only Male/Female options on the form, I tick Female and am happy for people to refer to me as "she/her" etc, which is typical cis-woman, but when someone refers to me as woman or lady (example, parents telling their kids to "mind the lady and her dog", or a shop assistant pointing me out and describing me as "this woman here"), I actually wonder who they're talking about and have to stop myself from looking round for someone else, because my mind just doesn't accept those when describing me - doesn't accept the word "man" in relation to me either. I was stuck in limbo until gender fluid/gender neutral came along - I didn't identify as Male, Female _or_ Trans.

So I describe myself as gender neutral, and will tick that box on forms when and where available.

I don't need to change my name to reflect whether I'm more male or female, because my name _is_ gender neutral, and, although I didn't find this out until a few years ago, the spelling of my name is actually the "boy's" spelling (not a conscious thought on my parents' part - mum just asked the midwife for a popular spelling of my name, and went with what the she said . . . No wonder I'm messed up. :Hilarious ).

But, if I (just using myself as an example, it's not how I identify) don't know if I'm going to wake up more female than male, or more male than female, then how can I possibly expect others to get the pronouns right? For want of a better word, it's my "problem" - no one else's. No one should be having a go at another because they can't read their minds.

If ever a can of worms was opened, it's the gender debate.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Boxerluver30 said:


> Just to pick up on the point of wanting a doctor etc the same gender I absolutely believe people should be entitled to ask this without getting judged. Whether they be female or male. I wish people would think about it from the abuseds point of view sometimes, it doesn't matter to them that that male identifies as a female for example. If they have been abused/sexually assaulted by a male before then of course they may be scared to a degree to be around someone who still outwardly presents as male. Of course in cases where someone refuses a doctor of whatever gender it isn't always to do with reasons like this and *I think its a good idea to ask their reasons why* instead of just shouting bigot


I don't agree. If someone says they don't feel comfortable being seen by a particular doctor/nurse, that should be sufficient. They shouldn't have to explain why. They may have very valid reasons which are too painful/private to discuss. Medical staff should be professional enough to understand that they may be 'rejected' for reasons that have nothing to do with themselves and everything to do with the patient's past experiences.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

CuddleMonster said:


> I don't agree. If someone says they don't feel comfortable being seen by a particular doctor/nurse, that should be sufficient. They shouldn't have to explain why. They may have very valid reasons which are too painful/private to discuss. Medical staff should be professional enough to understand that they may be 'rejected' for reasons that have nothing to do with themselves and everything to do with the patient's past experiences.


Good point, I meant more from a viewpoint of understanding but I can understand why someone may not want to tell. I agree medical staff should be professional and not take these things personally


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

It's something I feel strongly about and not making assumptions even when you think you know why someone is reacting a certain way. I know a lady who will not be seen by male doctors from a particular ethnic background and of course, she is always branded racist for that. What none of her critics realise is that she was gang raped by a group of men from that particular background - being seen by any male is difficult, but males who physically resemble/sound like the ones who attacked her is impossible. But she has to choose between either recounting a very traumatic incident in her life to total strangers or being branded racist.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Regardless of who THEY think they are due to mental health issues if they have a male anatomy they should use facilities intended for people with male anatomy! That's why they have urinals in their toilets and the ladies toilets don't!


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

CuddleMonster said:


> It's something I feel strongly about and not making assumptions even when you think you know why someone is reacting a certain way. I know a lady who will not be seen by male doctors from a particular ethnic background and of course, she is always branded racist for that. What none of her critics realise is that she was gang raped by a group of men from that particular background - being seen by any male is difficult, but males who physically resemble/sound like the ones who attacked her is impossible. But she has to choose between either recounting a very traumatic incident in her life to total strangers or being branded racist.


That's awful, poor lady . Why do people not think it could be for reasons such as this instead of being racist/bigoted etc. People jump to conclusions far too easily/quickly


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

CuddleMonster said:


> And some will actually decline to receive medical treatment if it cannot be provided by another woman.


Tricky though is it not? Depends on what is meant by "woman". How about this scenario.....

You: "I would like to make an appointment for a smear test please."
Receptionist: "Certainly. "The earliest we can fit you in is Thursday morning."
You: "I would like to be seen by a female doctor please."
Receptionist: "Ah, ok, let's see, Dr Smith is a Man on Thursdays. How about next Tuesday? Dr Smith is a Woman on Tuesdays."

Not too far fetched given the current trajectory of thought on this issue. The six foot six bearded person with the big package is a woman if she says she is. Will you be allowed to ask instead for a Doctor without a penis I wonder?


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Well, as I started this mainly in response to comments elsethread about the forum being too quiet, I'm delighted with the number of replies.

Just to clarify - back a few pages, someone referred to my opening post as being anti-trans people: if you care to read it again you will see that it is not  I have no difficulty whatsoever with genuine transwomen being treated as the women they are/are becoming. My issue is with the self-identification madness that is currently hitting the headlines: this gives every abuser the opportunity to get easy access to women and girls. And to those who say that no man would do this (the faff of dressing up, make-up, pretending etc) I say this: just read up about how determined predatory men are to achieve their wishes - they will groom their potential victims for YEARS if necessary.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

.Also, since many women don't wear makeup and wear neutral clothing such as jeans and jumpers, a man wouldn't even have to go to that effort. I was born female and identify as female but I'm currently wearing jeans and a man's t-shirt (off topic - WHY do clothes manufacturers make women's tops so short?!!), so if a bloke dressed the same claimed to identify as female, wouldn't it be discriminatory to insist he wears a skirt and makeup?!!


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> Well, as I started this mainly in response to comments elsethread about the forum being too quiet, I'm delighted with the number of replies.
> 
> Just to clarify - back a few pages, someone referred to my opening post as being anti-trans people: if you care to read it again you will see that it is not  I have no difficulty whatsoever with genuine transwomen being treated as the women they are/are becoming. My issue is with the self-identification madness that is currently hitting the headlines: this gives every abuser the opportunity to get easy access to women and girls. And to those who say that no man would do this (the faff of dressing up, make-up, pretending etc) I say this: just read up about how determined predatory men are to achieve their wishes - they will groom their potential victims for YEARS if necessary.


I would be really surprised if anybody could view you as anti-trans but this topic is a difficult one to discuss without some risk of misinterpretation. Fwiw, I thought you were quite brave to kick off the thread given how easily it could have gone off the rails. I am glad you did. It is encouraging to see a thread on a potentially controversial topic being discussed in a balanced way.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

CuddleMonster said:


> .Also, since many women don't wear makeup and wear neutral clothing such as jeans and jumpers, a man wouldn't even have to go to that effort. I was born female and identify as female but I'm currently wearing jeans and a man's t-shirt (off topic - WHY do clothes manufacturers make women's tops so short?!!), so if a bloke dressed the same claimed to identify as female, wouldn't it be discriminatory to insist he wears a skirt and makeup?!!


Same here. I'm pretty sure I don't have a dress or a skirt anymore. If I needed to look extra smart for a wedding or something I would look for something like a trouser suit or similar.
I often wear men's shoes as I can't find comfortable women's ones as my feet are so flipping big. Mountain warehouse do a good line in women's tee shirts now which are longer, otherwise it would have been men's tees.
Born a women and have remained one although one hell of a tomboy as a child.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Same here. I'm pretty sure I don't have a dress or a skirt anymore. If I needed to look extra smart for a wedding or something I would look for something like a trouser suit or similar.
> I often wear men's shoes as I can't find comfortable women's ones as my feet are so flipping big. Mountain warehouse do a good line in women's tee shirts now which are longer, otherwise it would have been men's tees.
> Born a women and have remained one although one hell of a tomboy as a child.


Ditto
I can't remember the last time I wore a skirt' but I am a woman and will be until I die


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Siskin said:


> Mountain warehouse do a good line in women's tee shirts now which are longer, otherwise it would have been men's tees.
> Born a women and have remained one although one hell of a tomboy as a child.


Totally off topic but thanks for the recommendation - I will check out mountain warehouse!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> Tricky though is it not? Depends on what is meant by "woman". How about this scenario.....
> 
> You: "I would like to make an appointment for a smear test please."
> Receptionist: "Certainly. "The earliest we can fit you in is Thursday morning."
> ...


Lets not mix up transgenderism with transvestitism
No transgender person I know ( and i know quite a few having, platonically, lived with one) would EVER want to face the world as you have described above
Also
not having a penis would encompass many transgender women 

* edit as I mistakenly used a wrong word as shown in following posts


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> Lets not mix up transgenderism with transexualism
> No transgender person I know ( and i know quite a few having, platonically, lived with one) would EVER want to face the world as you have described above
> Also
> not having a penis would encompass many transgender women


Transgender is an umbrella term that covers all sorts of gender variance including the 'I'm a woman on Wednesdays' type. This is what LGBT organisations are teaching, I'm not making it up








Transsexual is considered an old fashioned term these days but refers to those who have dysphoria and seek full transition including surgery.

The majority (about 80%) of transwomen do retain their male genitalia btw (information from GIRES)


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I'll just leave this here. This person has won awards, including the Financial Times Award for Champions of Women in Business. So a place lost for an actual woman. Because this guy is not a woman, any more than Rachel Dolezal is black. Truth isn't hate speech, the earth is not flat.
https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

picaresque said:


> Transgender is an umbrella term that covers all sorts of gender variance including the 'I'm a woman on Wednesdays' type. This is what LGBT organisations are teaching, I'm not making it up
> View attachment 355770
> 
> 
> ...


A transvestite, amongst the lgbtq etc community at large, ( ie the grunts on the ground, not the organisations who, like, for example. stonewall, have their own agenders), are those who dress for 'pleasure'
the term transgender encompasses those who have body dysmorphia and wish to be seen and viewed as the gender ( or not) they believe they should be
Also
If you read that which i did wrote, I said many, not all

* edit as mistakenly used a wrong word, as seen in following posts


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> A transexual, amongst the lgbtq etc community at large, ( ie the grunts on the ground, not the organisations who, like, for example. stonewall, have their own agenders), are those who dress for 'pleasure'


You must be thinking of transvestite.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

picaresque said:


> You must be thinking of transvestite.


May I deeply apologise to you @picaresque
Three times i read and reread those posts, and, each and every time, I read transvestite, where I had put transexual
I could blame oramorph and pain, but that would be disingenuous of me
I simply saw what I thought I wrote, not what I actually did, and in TWO posts at that 
thank goodness you knew what I meant

*going to change the previous posts, so as to not cause confusion if anyone comes searching in the future*


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

I find myself torn in so many ways regarding this. I know a handful of trans women and only one trans man, I have no issue with the toilet thing... I mean we use cubicles. I don't care who is next door to me.

I have felt very uncomfortable in a changing room before though, it was open plan and she was very very early in her transition. I knew her as a male colleague. I knew her as a straight male colleague. Then she was a lesbian trans woman, pre hormones. I felt very much like I was sharing a shower room with a male colleague.
She was considerate and probably felt as awkward as us, while we tried to change with some dignity in tact. But it did feel a little like her rights superseded mine at that point, I am ashamed to admit that, and didn't want her to feel like she wasn't welcome or like she could express who she felt she was. But from my position (wrapped in a towel) she was a 6ft tall, broad, male bodied person who is attracted to women. My instincts and my lefty liberal mindset were well and truely in battle.
I can't imagine how it would feel to be a vulnerable woman in refuge facing that...
I understand her not wanting to use a male room through fear of abuse, but unisex accessible changing rooms were available which could have been used instead of passing on that discomfort.

Also, a lot about "oppression" or patriarchal influence (whatever you want to call it) on all sides is societal.
A trans woman will not have the shared experience of social pressures growing up as a girl. A trans man will not have Experianced the "toxic masculinity" of growing up a boy.
They will not have a shared biological experience of having a womb, the risks and joys associated with pregnancy, or the complications surrounding being the owner of a woman's body (like periods!)

I will never fear being "found out" by men who may be attracted to me. I will also never have the social stigma attached to trans-life.
I don't know what it means to be a woman...I don't know what it feels like to be in the wrong body and the mental trauma that can cause.

Also I thoroughly disagree with the cotton ceiling concept. No one is owed sexual relationships with anyone else. You cannot demand it based on your perceived gender (trans or cis!) trans women can't demand lesbians entertain them as sexual partners in the same way Cis men cannot demand it of hetero-cis or trans women.

Our differing experiences do make us different. The mantra "trans women are women" may be true, they are women but they are not the _same_, and we have to accept our differences too in order to make it work.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

grumpy goby said:


> I find myself torn in so many ways regarding this. I know a handful of trans women and only one trans man, I have no issue with the toilet thing... I mean we use cubicles. I don't care who is next door to me.
> 
> I have felt very uncomfortable in a changing room before though, it was open plan and she was very very early in her transition. I knew her as a male colleague. I knew her as a straight male colleague. Then she was a lesbian trans woman, pre hormones. I felt very much like I was sharing a shower room with a male colleague.
> She was considerate and probably felt as awkward as us, while we tried to change with some dignity in tact. But it did feel a little like her rights superseded mine at that point, I am ashamed to admit that, and didn't want her to feel like she wasn't welcome or like she could express who she felt she was. But from my position (wrapped in a towel) she was a 6ft tall, broad, male bodied person who is attracted to women. My instincts and my lefty liberal mindset were well and truely in battle.
> ...


If I could like this one hundred times I would!


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> I find myself torn in so many ways regarding this. I know a handful of trans women and only one trans man, I have no issue with the toilet thing... I mean we use cubicles. I don't care who is next door to me.
> 
> I have felt very uncomfortable in a changing room before though, it was open plan and she was very very early in her transition. I knew her as a male colleague. I knew her as a straight male colleague. Then she was a lesbian trans woman, pre hormones. I felt very much like I was sharing a shower room with a male colleague.
> She was considerate and probably felt as awkward as us, while we tried to change with some dignity in tact. But it did feel a little like her rights superseded mine at that point, I am ashamed to admit that, and didn't want her to feel like she wasn't welcome or like she could express who she felt she was. But from my position (wrapped in a towel) she was a 6ft tall, broad, male bodied person who is attracted to women. My instincts and my lefty liberal mindset were well and truely in battle.
> ...


That is probably the best post I have read on petforums, ever.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Really great post @grumpy goby !!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> I find myself torn in so many ways regarding this. I know a handful of trans women and only one trans man, I have no issue with the toilet thing... I mean we use cubicles. I don't care who is next door to me.
> 
> I have felt very uncomfortable in a changing room before though, it was open plan and she was very very early in her transition. I knew her as a male colleague. I knew her as a straight male colleague. Then she was a lesbian trans woman, pre hormones. I felt very much like I was sharing a shower room with a male colleague.
> She was considerate and probably felt as awkward as us, while we tried to change with some dignity in tact. But it did feel a little like her rights superseded mine at that point, I am ashamed to admit that, and didn't want her to feel like she wasn't welcome or like she could express who she felt she was. But from my position (wrapped in a towel) she was a 6ft tall, broad, male bodied person who is attracted to women. My instincts and my lefty liberal mindset were well and truely in battle.
> ...


I agree with the others - this is a great post, and you out it way better than I could.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I think people are obsessed with labels nowadays and I don't even understand what some of the labels even mean. As far gendered toilets, I've come to view gendered toilets as silly. How does one even really know the sex of anyone around you unless you're checking their "junk"? That's especially true with strangers. Gendered toilets are something that I think people have taken for granted for a long time and never really questioned. All toilets should have full privacy, IMO.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

DogLover1981 said:


> I think people are obsessed with labels nowadays and I don't even understand what some of the labels even mean. As far gendered toilets, I've come to view gendered toilets as silly. *How does one even really know the sex of anyone around you unless you're checking their "junk"?* That's especially true with strangers. Gendered toilets are something that I think people have taken for granted for a long time and never really questioned. All toilets should have full privacy, IMO.


Well, if you're talking biological sex, then in the majority of cases it's pretty easy to distinguish between male and female humans just from looking at the head alone. Archeologists and pathologists can usually determine gender from a skull alone, remember. And that's just one of many clues available long before you get to more private aspects. 

Gendered toilets are also something of a practicality in most situations. Individual self contained cubicles are more difficult and expensive to accomodate into a larger building plan for many reasons, and take up more space per cubicle due to planning regulations. For example, consider a motorway services or a sports ground - or anywhere which handles large volumes of people that currently has the sort of arrangement where you have two or more loo cubicles for each wash basin. If you suddenly have to accomodate a wash basin in each cubicle, you need to significantly increase the size of each cubicle and add a whole lot more plumbing. But you can't reduce the number of toilets available, as there is a legal minimum to be met, and the chances are there won't be enough space freed up by removing the existing wash basins - so where do you put the rest? Not so much of a problem if you're doing a new build (despite being a horribly inefficient use of space), nightmare if you're working with an existing floorspace. Perhaps adding one or two individual cubicles outside the main gendered areas (along the lines of many disabled facilities) would be a more sensible solution if it came to it.

Leaving biological sexual identity considerations (including trans) aside, I have to confess I just can't get my head around all this multiple/fluid gender stuff. Probably because I myself am a biological female who has generally trodden her own path and never conformed much to anything her life and is happy that way (favourite phrase - 'normal is boring!'), but doesn't see that as not being female gendered. As a kid I much preferred building Lego castles to playing with dolls, and building dens to having tea parties. I spent far more time hanging out with my brother and his friends than I did with girls, if only because they were round ours so much! I was the one who wanted to climb trees and go rock scrambling and ride horses and learn archery, and wasn't fussed about shopping or sunbathing or sitting around chatting aimlessly. I'd much rather be taking my brother's razor apart to fix it! So I was very much a tomboy in many ways - but I also liked some girly stuff too. Cross stich, crochet, quilting, craft in general really. Pretty clothes as well as active clothes. Make-up and nail varnish. Baking with Mum. And it's never really changed. I'm not a 'girly girl', never will be. But I'm certainly 100% girl as far as I am concerned, and enjying doing things regarded as 'bloke stuff' doesn't change that for me 

Come to think of it, maybe it's the whole labelling of various things as 'bloke stuff' and 'girl stuff' that's played a large part in getting society to this point in the first place...


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

DogLover1981 said:


> I think people are obsessed with labels nowadays and I don't even understand what some of the labels even mean. As far gendered toilets, I've come to view gendered toilets as silly. How does one even really know the sex of anyone around you unless you're checking their "junk"? That's especially true with strangers. Gendered toilets are something that I think people have taken for granted for a long time and never really questioned. All toilets should have full privacy, IMO.


Actually women had to fight for 'gendered toilets' as previously there were no provisions for them, women were by and large excluded from public life. This, along with many other hard-won rights for women, is indeed taken for granted by people who have no knowledge of history and how far we've come. The reality of male violence and voyeurism is why some spaces need segregating by sex, then and now. I am so confused by what is supposed to be the 'right-on' stance on this now - is it 'men are terrible so transwomen cannot be expected to use the male toilets or they will literally be murdered' or 'all gender bathrooms are the answer, anything else is bigoted and ridiculous'?
No one is proposing genital screening obviously and trans people will continue using the bathroom they choose but it's usually easy to tell someone's sex at a glance. It's a survival tactic for most mammals. Mama bears can recognise a male bear from quite some distance, she needs to to protect her cubs.


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## Bebe1 (Feb 24, 2017)

A very close friend of mine, who has been "trapped" in the wrong body for almost 40 years, is in the process of becoming the Woman she always knew she is. Born a Man, she Is living as a Woman now to be allowed to transition fully, and she is one of the bravest people I've ever known, I wish _everyone_ who was trapped in the wrong body could have the bravery and support to be who they know they are. Why shouldnt they!

But the way shes been treated is bordering on inhumane at times. Her family have disowned her, so-called "friends" cross the street when they see her coming so they dont have to speak to her, she is still working in a supermarket where she was known as a man and some colleagues still call her by her former name and say "he" and " him" even though shes been living as a Woman for over a year now, although she does realise a lot of that is just habit, and people either blatently stare at her, or mutter things as they walk by. She even had eggs thrown at her by a group of dumb teenagers.

One person even said it wouldnt be so bad if my friend "looked more feminine" but that because she is over 6 feet tall and has "masculine" features, she should just accept shes a man and only "dress up" in private. I said that would be fine if she was a transvestite, but she not...shes a woman born in a mans body.

I cant imagine the pain, struggle, confusion, and even at times, shame, shes gone through, especially in her younger years and Im sad its taken this long before she felt able to be herself, but Im also proud of her and in awe of her strength. Shes lost a lot, but found a lot at the same time and I think shes amazing.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Turns out, after my long post, I have more to say on the matter  I will call it "_and another thing..._."

And another thing....about being a woman and "womanhood".

A few people have said this, and it is what prompted me to write again I suppose. I am a woman. I was born with female anatomy, and socialised as a girl growing up. I was a massive tomboy despite the adults around me trying their best to encourage my otherwise.

I dont wear makeup. I rarely wear a dress (unless its formal and therefore kinda expected). As a child I played football, raced bikes, climbed trees and built treehouses. I played videogames, wrestled with my friends and lived a life in jeans and oversized check-shirts (oh the grungey 90s). I was, to my mother and grandmothers despair, decidedly un-ladylike - now I am an engineer I still am thoroughly un-ladylike. Men find me....difficult to engage with at work because I do not act how they expected women to act and refuse to play the submissive shrinking violet they expect in the boardroom (Acting in a traditionally "male" manner [read: confident] from a woman is seen as bossy, not assertive)

So, with all that in mind, I have no idea what a TW means when she says she_ feels like a woman. _I literally have zero idea what that means. I am a woman, and I dont feel like anything other than me - is that feeling like a woman? I really dont know. I have never been a man so have no basis for comparison. It really is a concept I struggle to get to terms with.

Whilst I am a full blown Feminist, I appreciate that whilst technically I can compete with a man (and trust me when I say I do) men and women _are_ different. I am a stocky build (not overweight but in no manner petite) and average height at 5ft7 - but a man of a similar size is physically stronger than me. He has testosterone on his side.
Also, mentally men and women are wired differently. 1000s of years of evolution has made that happen - women in general carry more skills around developing relationships, empathy, our soft skills are better developed from a younger age. I dont know if its societal or biological, but we do have differently wired brains. 
Is this what Trans-men feel when they feel more like a woman? Do they have heightened soft skills compared to their male counterparts? I need to better understand that I guess....

The clothes thing is a red herring in this argument I think. TW are often criticised for expressing as a stereotypical woman in their clothes and makeup - like thats what it means to be a woman. I dont think any TW believes that their clothes make them a woman. What they believe (and I believe them in this) is that unless they take these steps, society wont accept them as women. They have male bodies and features - they need to disguise these with their clothes in order to pass. They also need to "live" in their chosen sex for a few years before they are eligible for further treatment (hormones or ops? Im not sure, many TW skip the ops as it can be problematic) - mooching about in checkshirts and jeans would probably tell the world they arent "really" a woman.
We cannot beat them with the clothes pole, because it is a societal pressure to be accepted - not a genuine idea of womanhood. It is our shared expectation on how the outside world expect women to present.

Sex organs.... well this is a whole barrel of monkeys we don't want to open.
1: TW dont have a womb.... nor does my mum she had hers out.
2: TW cant have babies..... nor can millions of Cis-women
3: TW have penis'...until they don't - then where do we draw a line? Are they a man pre-op but woman post op? are they still a man post op, in which case do we leave a dotted line around their old penis' location and still allocate them a man - how would you ever know?
4: We stick with our "assigned at birth" gender - but where does that leave intersex people... sometimes the doctor gets it wrong, assigns an individual as a boy based on the external organs - but the internal organs are releasing hormones and really mucking up the assignment!
4: Ignore the easily identifiable sex organs and stick to our building blocks...Chromosomes :XX and XY - SIMPLE! - but its not, theres also XXY, XYY. D'oh.

Then Trans-men really upset the argument - if we exclude TW from female spaces do we welcome in TM who have been taking testosterone, grown up, bulked out, gotten stronger and grown facial hair!

Conclusion:
I have no idea, what to think or feel on the matter.
The whole argument comes down to feelings I guess, A TW's feeling that she is in the wrong body (I dont think there is a biological/medical answer as to what causes this yet) and then the inherent want to be in womans places as a result; as they perceive a danger in male spaces. 
And a Cis-woman's feeling of percieved danger by having a male bodied individual (that you have no idea about - all you know is they are bigger, stronger and male bodied - it uncomfortable) in a womans safe-space. (I exclude toilets in that btw due to cubicles.. more like womens prisons, refuges, communal shower spaces etc - places where there is an inherent vunerability)

Who's feelings trumps the other in that? Its a very tricky situation. And despite my long rambling posts, I dont know where I should sit.
I want TW to feel accepted, and happy and "womanly" (whatever that means) - but at the same time, as a woman, I want to feel comfortable and safe in spaces designed for exactly that...


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

grumpy goby said:


> The clothes thing is a red herring in this argument I think. TW are often criticised for expressing as a stereotypical woman in their clothes and makeup - like thats what it means to be a woman. I dont think any TW believes that their clothes make them a woman. What they believe (and I believe them in this) is that unless they take these steps, society wont accept them as women. They have male bodies and features - they need to disguise these with their clothes in order to pass.


A lot of lesbians, when they first come out, feel the need to make themselves look "butch" or some way "look like a lesbian". I think some of this has to do with the need to fit in and show the world what you are. It could be a similar situation for trans women when they first "come out" perhaps?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Sairy said:


> A lot of lesbians, when they first come out, feel the need to make themselves look "butch" or some way "look like a lesbian". I think some of this has to do with the need to fit in and show the world what you are. It could be a similar situation for trans women when they first "come out" perhaps?


I absolutely think it is. I know a TW who doesnt present "femme"; but she said she felt immense pressure to do so at first - especially before hormones changed her structure and hair growth! Now her face has softened, she looks alot more like a middle aged woman (actually like her sister!) than previously she is alot more comfortable in casual clothing - jeans and the like. But she feels like she "passes" in these clothes. She said she felt no one would ever see her, or accept her, as a woman, call her by her name, or use her pronouns unless she did the skirt/heels/makeup thing.
It was all about everyone else' perception and her desire to fit in, to be "femme" - now shes more comfortable in her place and in her chosen outfits!


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

The thing that never happens has happened again
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/68044...s-days-after-arriving-at-west-yorkshire-jail/



> her erect penis


It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

picaresque said:


> The thing that never happens has happened again
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/68044...s-days-after-arriving-at-west-yorkshire-jail/
> 
> It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words




I hope the women will be ok. I really don't know what to suggest to stop this, thing is I support trans rights however I think in cases like this they shouldn't be allowed near women. So contradicting myself really, it's a tough one to figure out what would be best. Best thing I can think of would be a seperate unit away from women.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I thought of this thread when I read the news that Ruth Hunt had resigned for Stonewall. I always used to support Stonewall (despite not being LGBT myself) but after reading more about how trans issues were being promoted above those of gay or (particularly) lesbians, shutting downs discussions, etc I completely lost respect for how the organization seemed to be heading. Wonder who the successor will be & hope they can get back on track.

I had no idea about how any discussion or criticism of trans people was deemed 'transphobic', had no idea that women were being silenced or their rights pushed to one side to support those of a minority group. It honestly shocked me when I started reading more but also made me feel quite sad. I think this thread really made me think & read a lot more about an important subject that I hadn't really considered before …. especially posts by @SpringDance & @picaresque


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I thought of this thread when I read the news that Ruth Hunt had resigned for Stonewall. I always used to support Stonewall (despite not being LGBT myself) but after reading more about how trans issues were being promoted above those of gay or (particularly) lesbians, shutting downs discussions, etc I completely lost respect for how the organization seemed to be heading. Wonder who the successor will be & hope they can get back on track.
> 
> I had no idea about how any discussion or criticism of trans people was deemed 'transphobic', had no idea that women were being silenced or their rights pushed to one side to support those of a minority group. It honestly shocked me when I started reading more but also made me feel quite sad. I think this thread really made me think & read a lot more about an important subject that I hadn't really considered before …. especially posts by @SpringDance & @picaresque


I hadn't heard of this so went and looked it up, and wow . As I've said in this thread previously I support lgbtq+ completely and trans rights however not to the expense of someone other group/person. Extremism like this woman was promoting in any form worries me so I'm glad that she has resigned.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I thought of this thread when I read the news that Ruth Hunt had resigned for Stonewall. I always used to support Stonewall (despite not being LGBT myself) but after reading more about how trans issues were being promoted above those of gay or (particularly) lesbians, shutting downs discussions, etc I completely lost respect for how the organization seemed to be heading. Wonder who the successor will be & hope they can get back on track.
> 
> I had no idea about how any discussion or criticism of trans people was deemed 'transphobic', had no idea that women were being silenced or their rights pushed to one side to support those of a minority group. It honestly shocked me when I started reading more but also made me feel quite sad. I think this thread really made me think & read a lot more about an important subject that I hadn't really considered before …. especially posts by @SpringDance & @picaresque


Martina Navratilova is a good current example - legendary sportswoman and a lesbian icon who dared to voice an opinion on biological males competing in women's sport, now she's a nasty transphobe.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Along similar lines, the show below is fantastic and showing the issues and stigma LGBTQ people face.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p057nfy7


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## Gallifreyangirl (Feb 11, 2015)

This is shocking and I don't agree with it. I support LBGTQ and trans but not on expense of women's rights.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Martina Navratilova -This news made me sad when i heard it but other athletic heroines have come out in support whixxh at this stage is exactly what we need.

I cannot see how TRAs see it as fair game to allow people who have undergone full male puberty, developed denser bones, larger frames, more muscle mass, larger lung capacity to compete in women's sports. Some even suggesting that you don't actually need to "transition" with hormones as a mans body can be a woman's body if they feel it is... if I see the word "girl-d*ck" one more time I will scream.
Yes their bodies "change" but not to the point where advantage based on biology is altered. Karen Malone said on a C5 interview last week that she stopped as a boxing promoter because her girl-brain wasn't capable of it anymore (I was less driven.. etc) .... how f'cking insulting is that?!?

I read a lot about this stuff as it genuinely worries me. Vulnerable women are continuously being put at risk for the sake of men's feelings. We are becoming the sacrificial lambs to "woke"ness.

I fear for young gay and lesbian kids who are being convinced they are trans instead of accepting who they are. I fear for young butch girls and feminine boys who have TRA groups telling them they are in the wrong body.
I fear for lesbians who are being bullied and coerced into accepting people with penises accusing them of bigotry for not wanting to have sex with them (incel much?)

I fear men with autogynephelia who are having the doors to our spaces flung open and anyone who speaks up is monumentally shut down.

And I feel for genuine people with body dismorpia who's lives are being hijacked.

This rant would get me a twitter ban. That's the scary thing.

Men can present as women, and I don't particularly care about what pronouns they wish to use... but they can never be _female_. And they should not be allowed to take our hard fought rights from us. 
The concept of having a "female brain" is actually an abhorrent idea to me.

My name is Claire. I am an adult human female. I do not like makeup or dresses. I own 2 pairs of shoes. I can't cook and am a useless housewife. I am an engineer. I like motorsports and cars. I am stocky and strong. I am not meek nor submissive. My biological reality does not match societal expectations of my gender and that's OK.
*I am a woman.*


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

@grumpy goby excellent post. If you don't mind me saying so you seem to have had quite a change of opinion on the subject, remembering past threads.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

picaresque said:


> @grumpy goby excellent post. If you don't mind me saying so you seem to have had quite a change of opinion on the subject, remembering past threads.


I do. I am by nature a liberal lefty! And I personally know TW in the wild as it were.. and I don't have an issue with them presenting as they do and want them to be able to live happy and safe lives.... but the world has gone beyond a reasonable and fair point now and it's totally at our expense...

I guess the difference is I see it a "presenting as female" whereas they see it as "Being female" - with the family jewels in tact.

I fear for the future of non gender conforming kids who are having their bodies tinkered with in potentially irreversible ways... a lot of girls are transitioning, being prescribed testosterone and binding... what happens if they want to detransition?? Which we are now seeing...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> Martina Navratilova is a good current example - legendary sportswoman and a lesbian icon who dared to voice an opinion on biological males competing in women's sport, now she's a nasty transphobe.


Yes, I remember the 'outrage' she seemed to provoke … unbelievable!!

On Woman's Hour a few months ago they were discussing trans issues & the woman from Stonewall (I can't remember her name now) refused to debate with another woman who wasn't anti trans at all but was bringing up issues & wanted to debate them …. Stonewall refused to share a platform with her & would not discuss ….. I honestly do not understand this mentality at all. Surely we should all be having conversations so we can debate & understand, etc. No discussions & then labelling those who do have queries as being 'transphobic' is so very wrong & very worrying.

Edited to add: Excellent post @grumpy goby


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

picaresque said:


> @grumpy goby excellent post. If you don't mind me saying so you seem to have had quite a change of opinion on the subject, remembering past threads.


I don't think I was ever on the "let them do whatever" train. I didn't care so much about bathrooms, I didn't enjoy having to share communal changing areas last time I posted here I don't think...
I don't think I ever considered they would be putting themselves up in powerlifting competitions....


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

grumpy goby said:


> I do. I am by nature a liberal lefty! And I personally know TW in the wild as it were.. and I don't have an issue with them presenting as they do and want them to be able to live happy and safe lives.... but the world has gone beyond a reasonable and fair point now and it's totally at our expense...
> 
> I fear for the future of non gender conforming kids who are having their bodies tinkered with in potentially irreversible ways... a lot of girls are transitioning, being prescribed testosterone and binding... what happens if they want to detransition?? Which we are now seeing...


I've never agreed with parents forcing that decision on their kids. Kids say they want to be the opposite gender all the time, and you can also get girls being tomboys (me) and boys being feminine. That doesn't necessarily translate to them literally wanting to be the opposite gender.. i think parents should wait until they are older, say around puberty when hormones start and they start becoming more aware of their bodies.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> I am by nature a liberal lefty!


Me too! That's what makes it hard in a way when you voice your concerns and everyone assumes you must be a right-winger and a homophobe because hey it's LGBT innit. I was on board with it all until a few years ago, would have parroted 'TW are W' with the rest (even if I didn't really believe it deep down). I think I peaked over two words - female penis. Closely followed by -and this is horrible and ties into all sorts of safeguarding issues with 'transkids' - finding out that there is a company manufacturing 'packers', i.e. fake penises, for little girls who wanted to be boys to put in their underwear. The blog GenderTrender (since taken down by the thought police) did a whole investigative post on this, that was me gone down the rabbit hole.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxerluver30 said:


> I've never agreed with parents forcing that decision on their kids. Kids say they want to be the opposite gender all the time, and you can also get girls being tomboys (me) and boys being feminine. That doesn't necessarily translate to them literally wanting to be the opposite gender.. i think parents should wait until they are older, say around puberty when hormones start and they start becoming more aware of their bodies.


There was a programme on Panorama recently discussing this & puberty supressing drugs, etc. So worrying that children as young as 12 were taking these with no real scientific evidence regarding the implications of these drugs.

What I always find odd is people saying they 'knew' they wanted to a girl (for example) as they liked playing with dolls & wanted to wear dresses ….. I can't think that is a reason or even relevant but this again was mentioned on the programme. I never played with dolls, never wore pink, never really conformed to a gender stereotype so this confuses me.

What got me recently was watching YouTube videos by a transgender woman & being told that a woman can have a penis …. NO THEY BLOODY CAN'T!!!!!!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

picaresque said:


> Me too! That's what makes it hard in a way when you voice your concerns and everyone assumes you must be a right-winger and a homophobe because hey it's LGBT innit. I was on board with it all until a few years ago, would have parroted 'TW are W' with the rest (even if I didn't really believe it deep down). I think I peaked over two words - female penis. Closely followed by -and this is horrible and ties into all sorts of safeguarding issues with 'transkids' - finding out that there is a company manufacturing 'packers', i.e. fake penises, for little girls who wanted to be boys to put in their underwear. The blog GenderTrender (since taken down by the thought police) did a whole investigative post on this, that was me gone down the rabbit hole.


Man, that packers thing is so wrong on every level.

You're not wrong it has safeguarding issues


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

@Cleo38 They won't debate because they know they don't have a leg to stand on. Hence the censorship, no-platforming and labelling of anyone who disagrees with the latest newspeak as a hateful bigot.

And wait until you hear about womb transplants for transwomen. Apparently it really is that simple, just bung some (dead?) woman's uterus into a male body and boom, they can carry and birth a baby too.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> @Cleo38 They won't debate because they know they don't have a leg to stand on. Hence the censorship, no-platforming and labelling of anyone who disagrees with the latest newspeak as a hateful bigot.


And that very reason has drastically changed my viewpoint tbh.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

picaresque said:


> @Cleo38 They won't debate because they know they don't have a leg to stand on. Hence the censorship, no-platforming and labelling of anyone who disagrees with the latest newspeak as a hateful bigot.
> 
> And wait until you hear about womb transplants for transwomen. Apparently it really is that simple, just bung some (dead?) woman's uterus into a male body and boom, they can carry and birth a baby too.


Womb transplants, what the actual f . They make it sound so simple too, never mind the hormones, space to actually put a uterus etc etc. It's not a ****ing doll which you can just mess around with. Some people's stupidity actually amazes me


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxerluver30 said:


> Womb transplants, what the actual f . They make it sound so simple too, never mind the hormones, space to actually put a uterus etc etc. It's not a ******* doll which you can just mess around with. Some people's stupidity actually amazes me


Will be dying to see if they can squeeze it out of their lady dicks!!!


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> There was a programme on Panorama recently discussing this & puberty supressing drugs, etc. So worrying that children as young as 12 were taking these with no real scientific evidence regarding the implications of these drugs.
> 
> What I always find odd is people saying they 'knew' they wanted to a girl (for example) as they liked playing with dolls & wanted to wear dresses ….. I can't think that is a reason or even relevant but this again was mentioned on the programme. I never played with dolls, never wore pink, never really conformed to a gender stereotype so this confuses me.
> 
> What got me recently was watching YouTube videos by a transgender woman & being told that a woman can have a penis …. NO THEY BLOODY CAN'T!!!!!!


I remember my mum mentioning that panorama programme I think but I never watched it myself. I can guess what is in it though. I've never conformed to gender stereotypes either, even now I consider myself a female but don't do typically girly things. The only really girly things I do with my body are get my hair dyed/styled, paint my nails occasionally and wear the odd girly thing (you can usually find me in jeans/trackies with a hoodie/jacket). I like a lot of men's styles over women's too. I just don't see the need to label it either gender really. I like what I like, the gender it's supposed to conform too doesn't even register with me most of the time


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Will be dying to see if they can squeeze it out of their lady dicks!!!


OMG :Hilarious. That'd be an interesting birth for sure!!


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Will be dying to see if they can squeeze it out of their lady dicks!!!


Careful now 

The sad part is the transed teens who are led to believe (by adults who should know better) that they really can transcend reality and change sex. Instead of the reality of painful surgery and a lifetime as a medical patient. What's happened to Jazz Jennings for example is child abuse dressed up as progressive. Honestly could weep for her.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

picaresque said:


> Careful now
> 
> The sad part is the transed teens who are led to believe (by adults who should know better) that they really can transcend reality and change sex. Instead of the reality of painful surgery and a lifetime as a medical patient. What's happened to Jazz Jennings for example is child abuse dressed up as progressive. Honestly could weep for her.


I just googled and there was only articles about them as a YouTube personality and Wikipedia staying They are an activist for trans rights. Could you elaborate please ?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> Careful now
> 
> The sad part is the transed teens who are led to believe (by adults who should know better) that they really can transcend reality and change sex. Instead of the reality of painful surgery and a lifetime as a medical patient. What's happened to Jazz Jennings for example is child abuse dressed up as progressive. Honestly could weep for her.


I've not heard of her so just looked her up on Wikipedia …. 'gender assigned at birth' … that phrase winds me up! So at 5 yrs old she was able to determine that she wanted to be female then at 18 had gender reassignment surgery that then had complications …


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> I've not heard of her so just looked her up on Wikipedia …. 'gender assigned at birth' … that phrase winds me up! So at 5 yrs old she was able to determine that she wanted to be female then at 18 had gender reassignment surgery that then had complications …


I honestly think the poor kid was messed up by the family - fame hungry mum, sisters who use their sexuality and bodies for fame and money, and Caitlin... - I wouldnt be suprised if she grew up feeling like she would be more "loved" if she were a girl. The way her mum was about the whole thing was gross and borderline fetishising...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> I honestly think the poor kid was messed up by the family - fame hungry mum, sisters who use their sexuality and bodies for fame and money, and Caitlin... - I wouldnt be suprised if she grew up feeling like she would be more "loved" if she were a girl. The way her mum was about the whole thing was gross and borderline fetishising...


 That is awful but I suppose for fame & money some people will do anything .... even if it means messing their kids up

I'll have to read up on her a bit although tbh it sounds quite sad


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

So if I'm understanding correctly from the above she was born a female however her parents assigned her the male gender. Why? I read a bit on the wiki article but it was only brief and quite confusing to me.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxerluver30 said:


> So if I'm understanding correctly from the above she was born a female however her parents assigned her the male gender. Why? I read a bit on the wiki article but it was only brief and quite confusing to me.


No, she was born male .... no one is 'assigned' a gender regardless of what some people try to infer ..

So yes, statements like that can then be confusing 
.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Boxerluver30 said:


> So if I'm understanding correctly from the above she was born a female however her parents assigned her the male gender. Why? I read a bit on the wiki article but it was only brief and quite confusing to me.


She was born male and reidentified as female as a youngster, and has just had her "bottom" surgery which had complications. They (parents) decided when she was 3....hormones at 11 (puberty blockers), surgery at 17


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> No, she was born male ....


Ohh I see, ok that makes more sense now seeing pictures and you saying she's had surgery. Wikipedia can be so confusing sometimes.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxerluver30 said:


> Ohh I see, ok that makes more sense now seeing pictures and you saying she's had surgery. Wikipedia can be so confusing sometimes.


I think this whole subject can be tbh


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

grumpy goby said:


> She was born male and reidentified as female as a youngster, and has just had her "bottom" surgery which had complications. They decided when she was 3....


Thanks for explaining that. So sad they couldn't be happy with how she was born .


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I think this whole subject can be tbh


Yeah, I still get confused as to all the different labels. Like trans woman has been mentioned here and I've had to sit for a minute and think which way round that refers too.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Boxerluver30 said:


> Yeah, I still get confused as to all the different labels. Like trans woman has been mentioned here and I've had to sit for a minute and think which way round that refers too.


When I started reading more about this subject I was constantly having to look up terminology/acronyms as I had no idea.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Boxerluver30 said:


> I just googled and there was only articles about them as a YouTube personality and Wikipedia staying They are an activist for trans rights. Could you elaborate please ?





grumpy goby said:


> I honestly think the poor kid was messed up by the family - fame hungry mum, sisters who use their sexuality and bodies for fame and money, and Caitlin... - I wouldnt be suprised if she grew up feeling like she would be more "loved" if she were a girl. The way her mum was about the whole thing was gross and borderline fetishising...


Think you might have got Jazz Jennings mixed up with the Kardashians/Jenners. Easy to do tbh but they're a whole different car crash.
Jazz is the poster child for transkids. She was born male but showed a preference for 'girl' things from a young age. Nowadays that tends to be interpreted as a problem, which can be fixed by transitioning. Instead of just letting them be a boy who likes dollies and dresses or a girl who likes football and cars. Jazz was 'raised as a girl' from a young age and put on puberty blockers asap. When the time came for her to have 'bottom surgery', because of her delayed development there wasn't enough penile tissue available to create a neo-vagina which is how it's usually done. All of this, consultations with doctors and intimate conversations about this child's genitalia was broadcast on the family's reality tv show for the world to see. Stuff about whether or not she will ever be able to have a normal sex life and feel sexual pleasure due to what's been done to her body. Jazz is barely eighteen now and this has been going on in the public eye for years. Informed consent? Pah, who needs it.
Anyway the op has since been performed, using part of her bowel to create her neo vagina. There was a follow up surgery due to complications. There are clips on youtube of Jazz in agony post surgery, after having what should have been a healthy body part removed and a cavity hollowed out in its place.
The above sounds pretty damn grim, makes me feel like a creep writing it. But it's all out there, and most liberal leftie types are too concerned with appearing woke to face up to it. There are people on this forum who won't neuter their dogs but puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for kids get a thumbs up.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> Think you might have got Jazz Jennings mixed up with the Kardashians/Jenners. Easy to do tbh but they're a whole different car crash.
> Jazz is the poster child for transkids. She was born male but showed a preference for 'girl' things from a young age. Nowadays that tends to be interpreted as a problem, which can be fixed by transitioning. Instead of just letting them be a boy who likes dollies and dresses or a girl who likes football and cars. Jazz was 'raised as a girl' from a young age and put on puberty blockers asap. When the time came for her to have 'bottom surgery', because of her delayed development there wasn't enough penile tissue available to create a neo-vagina which is how it's usually done. All of this, consultations with doctors and intimate conversations about this child's genitalia was broadcast on the family's reality tv show for the world to see. Stuff about whether or not she will ever be able to have a normal sex life and feel sexual pleasure due to what's been done to her body. Jazz is barely eighteen now and this has been going on in the public eye for years. Informed consent? Pah, who needs it.
> Anyway the op has since been performed, using part of her bowel to create her neo vagina. There was a follow up surgery due to complications. There are clips on youtube of Jazz in agony post surgery, after having what should have been a healthy body part removed and a cavity hollowed out in its place.
> The above sounds pretty damn grim, makes me feel like a creep writing it. But it's all out there, and most liberal leftie types are too concerned with appearing woke to face up to it. There are people on this forum who won't neuter their dogs but puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for kids get a thumbs up.


Poor kid, that sounds horrific


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

My Sister has a four year old Grandson. He used to come here once a week until he started school. He loved toy cars, footballs, water pistols, the usual, but arrived one week with a pram containing two dolls. Mercifully, his Parents have not interpreted that as him being truly a girl. The truth is that he liked the look of his Sister's dolls and fancied playing with them for a while.

It is truly ridiculous that children as young as him are being offered counselling now to decide what sex they want to be.

For Heaven's sake, allow them to grow up and make their own decisions.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

picaresque said:


> Think you might have got Jazz Jennings mixed up with the Kardashians/Jenners. Easy to do tbh but they're a whole different car crash.
> Jazz is the poster child for transkids. She was born male but showed a preference for 'girl' things from a young age. Nowadays that tends to be interpreted as a problem, which can be fixed by transitioning. Instead of just letting them be a boy who likes dollies and dresses or a girl who likes football and cars. Jazz was 'raised as a girl' from a young age and put on puberty blockers asap. When the time came for her to have 'bottom surgery', because of her delayed development there wasn't enough penile tissue available to create a neo-vagina which is how it's usually done. All of this, consultations with doctors and intimate conversations about this child's genitalia was broadcast on the family's reality tv show for the world to see. Stuff about whether or not she will ever be able to have a normal sex life and feel sexual pleasure due to what's been done to her body. Jazz is barely eighteen now and this has been going on in the public eye for years. Informed consent? Pah, who needs it.
> Anyway the op has since been performed, using part of her bowel to create her neo vagina. There was a follow up surgery due to complications. There are clips on youtube of Jazz in agony post surgery, after having what should have been a healthy body part removed and a cavity hollowed out in its place.
> The above sounds pretty damn grim, makes me feel like a creep writing it. But it's all out there, and most liberal leftie types are too concerned with appearing woke to face up to it. There are people on this forum who won't neuter their dogs but puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for kids get a thumbs up.


your totally right! I am not good at tracking faux celebrities haha.... reality shows all merge into one big mess for me!!


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

picaresque said:


> Think you might have got Jazz Jennings mixed up with the Kardashians/Jenners. Easy to do tbh but they're a whole different car crash.
> Jazz is the poster child for transkids. She was born male but showed a preference for 'girl' things from a young age. Nowadays that tends to be interpreted as a problem, which can be fixed by transitioning. Instead of just letting them be a boy who likes dollies and dresses or a girl who likes football and cars. Jazz was 'raised as a girl' from a young age and put on puberty blockers asap. When the time came for her to have 'bottom surgery', because of her delayed development there wasn't enough penile tissue available to create a neo-vagina which is how it's usually done. All of this, consultations with doctors and intimate conversations about this child's genitalia was broadcast on the family's reality tv show for the world to see. Stuff about whether or not she will ever be able to have a normal sex life and feel sexual pleasure due to what's been done to her body. Jazz is barely eighteen now and this has been going on in the public eye for years. Informed consent? Pah, who needs it.
> Anyway the op has since been performed, using part of her bowel to create her neo vagina. There was a follow up surgery due to complications. There are clips on youtube of Jazz in agony post surgery, after having what should have been a healthy body part removed and a cavity hollowed out in its place.
> The above sounds pretty damn grim, makes me feel like a creep writing it. But it's all out there, and most liberal leftie types are too concerned with appearing woke to face up to it. There are people on this forum who won't neuter their dogs but puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for kids get a thumbs up.


. Parents like this need a slap. Why the hell do they think that's ok to mutilate their own kid?!


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

The problem with society is we are too quick to want to put a label on everything. Everyone has to slot nicely into a category and if they don't then there must be a new category made for them


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sairy said:


> The problem with society is we are too quick to want to put a label on everything. Everyone has to slot nicely into a category and if they don't then there must be a new category made for them


I also think that discussion & debate is now being seen as too challenging so is being stifled. This is what is creating so much tension & unease in many communities IMO.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

@molly and any who've experienced baby loss - please be careful reading this: might be triggering....

When I started this thread, all those months ago, I had no idea how bad things would get. I follow a lot of people on Twitter who are involved in women's rights and the stuff that aggressive transactivists post is truly shocking. I've recently reported a post containing vile suggestions regarding stillborns,,,,,, frankly shameful and inhuman nastiness.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> @molly and any who've experienced baby loss - please be careful reading this: might be triggering....
> 
> When I started this thread, all those months ago, I had no idea how bad things would get. I follow a lot of people on Twitter who are involved in women's rights and the stuff that aggressive transactivists post is truly shocking. I've recently reported a post containing vile suggestions regarding stillborns,,,,,, frankly shameful and inhuman nastiness.


Me neither, I honestly thought that some people were over reacting & (shamefully I admit this) being a bit 'transphobic' 

I am shocked, horrified & saddened as to what is going on; women being silenced, dictated to, their views & safety completely disregarded, women & children being put at risk from sexual predators (& this is not to say that I think all trans people are this way … sad that I feel I have to say this but I do), women have been arrested by the police for airing their opinions regarding biology, biology being ignored, violent crimes being committed & the perpetrator's gender misreported as female therefore skewing statistics, violent crime by trans women being ignored & not reported in certain areas of the media, sports women having to compete against biological males despite the unfair advantage simply because these people 'identify' with being female, people being told who they should consider as sexual partners, lesbians particularly, & if they don't consider 'women' with penises then they are transphobic ….. I can't believe this has happened 

I am not against the trans community at all, I have very sympathy with those people who suffer with gender dysmorphia, I realise that a lot of people who feel this way suffer from depression & other MH issues. I also recognise that these people can be victims of harassment & crime themselves so I am not 'anti trans' but more anti the way women's rights, concerns & spaces have been invaded. Surely this can't continue …… 

I've been reading a lot from all different sectors trying to ensure I get a balance but it's depressing & made me so angry. Having said that I have now discovered the wonderful Magdalen Berns


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> women being told who they should consider as sexual partners, lesbians particularly & if they don't consider 'women' with penises then they are transphobic …..


Does this really happen? Holy hell, where has the world ended up??


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Just a few tasters of what's actually going on

https://medium.com/@josephinebartosch/lesbian-pride-lesbian-protest-cea2c1404cc0

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...d-children-calling-transgender-woman-man.html (The Mail, yeah I know. The left wing press is pretending this isn't happening and the Times has a paywall)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45650462


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Having said that I have now discovered the wonderful Magdalen Berns


Magdalen Berns is a true shero. From her I learnt not to bother mincing my words.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

It is so worrying ... even the other week there was this story https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ng-guest-discussion-transgender-athletes.html

So debate again being stifled & a woman denied her voice. It is disgusting that the BBC caved in to Rachel McKinnon who compared sharing a platform with Dr Williams as that of a black person sharing one with a KKK member …. so ridiculous!

Instead of offering Dr Williams a spot 'later' in the show McKinnon should have been dropped … but then that would probably have been 'transphobic'


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

What? A male who is physically male, calls himself a woman and beats female cyclists? That would be like Usain Bolt calling himself disabled and entering the Paralympics. Sorry mate, born male and still with male genitals, you are still male and not only are you cheating, why would you want to. I hope the changing rooms are individual. A 15 year old gymnast shouldn’t be looking at you naked and vice-versa. A woman does not have a penis and a woman is a woman is a woman. Unfortunately he’s not. 

Ridiculous. I can hardly believe it. My trans friend just wanted to be accepted quietly, not making a big song and a dance about it and silencing women. Do these people realise that they are actually behaving as misogynist men who bully and belittle women? The only difference is they're doing it under a trans banner and getting away with it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Elles said:


> What? A male who is physically male, calls himself a woman and beats female cyclists? That would be like Usain Bolt calling himself disabled and entering the Paralympics. Sorry mate, born male and still with male genitals, you are still male and not only are you cheating, why would you want to. I hope the changing rooms are individual. A 15 year old gymnast shouldn't be looking at you naked and vice-versa. A woman does not have a penis and a woman is a woman is a woman. Unfortunately he's not.
> 
> Ridiculous. I can hardly believe it. My trans friend just wanted to be accepted quietly, not making a big song and a dance about it and silencing women. Do these people realise that they are actually behaving as misogynist men who bully and belittle women? The only difference is they're doing it under a trans banner and getting away with it.


You would think wouldn't you?! I was reading about a transwoman called Hannah Mouncey who has dropped out of Aussie rules football as she claims she has been worn down by 'unfair' rules & demands by the governing body. Google a picture of her & you will see how ironic it is that she feels she has been treated 'unfairly'.

She wrote an article for The Guardian in which she stated that she agreed with certain criteria set (regarding testosterone levels ..... but these were only within a set period, as a biological man she would have benefited from years of the hormone to build/maintain her physique up until she decided to transition, etc) she disagreed with other policies regarding build & weight & commented " ….. being heavy is not necessarily an advantage and think about the message it sends to women and girls about their bodies: if you're too big, you can't play. That is incredibly dangerous and backward."

Erm … no it's not telling women & girls anything about 'their' bodies but telling them that a biological man is too big & heavy to compete against them as it is unfair


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Regarding the sports thing and trans women being allowed to compete under the female brackets , I agree that is unfair. Especially when they haven't undergone any surgery / bodily changes, so are still in an outwardly male body. Male bodies are stronger than females biologically, so for sports that require strength of course they will already have an unfair advantage.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Things we can’t change in bodies...

Lung capacity ( higher in male bodies )
Bone density (higher in male bodies)
Narrower Pelvis/hips - lower Q angle even in narrow hipped men (The Q angle formed by the vector for the combined pull of the quadriceps femoris muscle and the patellar tendon, is important because of the lateral pull it exerts on the patella. Any alteration in alignment that increases the Q angle is thought to increase the lateral force on the patella.)

They keep talking about hormones like it’s the only thing that matters... physiology unaffected by hormones matters! Muscle mass changes on HRT but I’m yet to see anything which suggests it takes it to a level of an equivalent woman who has been through female puberty.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Something that ground my gears this week... I was sent a “hooray women in STEM at uni” mail this week. It said “48% of people identifying as female...” how many were actually born and socialised as girls, that’s the stat that matters.

That doesn’t mean the problem of low numbers of women in STEM (8% were the last figures I saw from the IET ) is going away, but these stats indicate it is... like our work is done. I know men who transitioned in their 40s in engineering... they did not suffer the same socialisation which prevents girls doing STEM work or getting ahead in the field. (It’s TOUGH at the bottom) They should not be included in these stats, they don’t represent an indication that women are picking up the trade...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> Something that ground my gears this week... I was sent a "hooray women in STEM at uni" mail this week. It said "48% of people identifying as female..." how many were actually born and socialised as girls, that's the stat that matters.
> 
> That doesn't mean the problem of low numbers of women in STEM (8% were the last figures I saw from the IET ) is going away, but these stats indicate it is... like our work is done. I know men who transitioned in their 40s in engineering... they did not suffer the same socialisation which prevents girls doing STEM work or getting ahead in the field. (It's TOUGH at the bottom) They should not be included in these stats, they don't represent an indication that women are picking up the trade...


Agreed, & figures will be skewed because of this.

Stupid question maybe …. but what is wrong with being defined as a trans woman? Why are certain individuals so against being labelled as such?

(And I do mean some trans women as I've yet to read the same amount of aggression, sense of entitlement from trans men)


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

I actually read a few posts recently (twitter, reddit et al) which suggests that Ciswomen (ie natal born women) are "less" of a woman than tran-women (who are the REAL women) because we dont "understand" what its like to feel like a woman.

One even suggested that a "butch" female who is mis-gendered as a man is less of a woman than a passing trans woman because she doesnt _exist in this world _as a woman or some such nonsense... like her outward appearance and others opinions of her femininity is what define her gender rather than her chromosomes and sexual organs... not to mention the fact that she would have been socialised as a female.

These opinions, in the whole, are very extreme and I dont believe most TW believe it... but the ones who are extreme are very vocal!

All in all, the whole thing has taken a really wierd turn.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> Things we can't change in bodies...
> 
> Lung capacity ( higher in male bodies )
> Bone density (higher in male bodies)
> ...


Here's rapper Zuby proving the point by effortlessly beating the British women's deadlift record in five seconds

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1100348562041462784
In 2014 male-to-female MMA fighter Fallon Fox put opponent Tamikka Brents in hospital when they were pitted against each other. Just another woman being battered by a man.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> I actually read a few posts recently (twitter, reddit et al) which suggests that Ciswomen (ie natal born women) are "less" of a woman than tran-women (who are the REAL women) because we dont "understand" what its like to feel like a woman.
> 
> One even suggested that a "butch" female who is mis-gendered as a man is less of a woman than a passing trans woman because she doesnt _exist in this world _as a woman or some such nonsense... like her outward appearance and others opinions of her femininity is what define her gender rather than her chromosomes and sexual organs... not to mention the fact that she would have been socialised as a female.
> 
> ...


It's so utterly backwards and reliant on old fashioned stereotypes, isn't it.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

picaresque said:


> It's so utterly backwards and reliant on old fashioned stereotypes, isn't it.


It's also interesting to note that it only seems to work the one way - somehow I (100% natural born female) don't think I could now expect to be allowed to join some of those remaining 'men only' organisations simply by saying 'I've decided I'm a man...' (I won't use the bathroom/changing room example, as although I've accidentally used the gents at least once in my life, I wouldn't want to do it intentially except in an emergency!)

A friend of mine took this notion a little further by suggesting one of the less obvious driving forces behind this mess could be the desire by some groups to reassert a more traditional patriarchal heirarchy in society - they don't like the progress made in womens rights and the associated lowering of overall male priviledge (even though there are still so many shortcomings), so by claiming womans rights are also mens rights now if they decide they want them on (without reciprocation), they re-tilt the playing field back towards men.

Personally, I'm blessed in that I've never experienced anything other than routine casual sexism in my life, but I can fully understand why many women who haven't been so fortunate would be very worried by some of the things being proposed - I wouldn't be happy to find anyone with intact male genitalia in supposedly biologically female changing rooms. I also found this article rather interesting:

https://excelpope.wordpress.com/2019/02/28/the-unaskable-question/

Which is a direct response to some of the genuine advice being given to schools on how to accomodate kids who consider themselves transgender (basically, stop complaining and move over, girls...) :


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I think your friend might have a point @Jesthar! Scary stuff when you think about it tho. It seems to have happened so quickly, or maybe I just didn't notice as I tend to avoid the news a lot as it's just so depressing.

I was reading something the other day that spoke of how trans inclusion was being implemented at schools & Tran Inclusion Schools Toolkit was mentioned so I took a look just to see for myself. It also mentions several worrying instances for inclusion regarding toilets, changing rooms & sleeping arrangements for residential trips (none of which mention any considerations for cisgenders apart from 'training') & also the scenarios you posted above.

So concerns raised regarding a biological male changing for sports with girls & them maybe being uncomfortable with this are basically ignored & played down . Surely these concerns are normal. At school PE lessons I felt uncomfortable enough doing this with other females let alone someone from another sex.

How can this be ignored & be seen as a 'training' issue?? It might not support the 'trans inclusion' policy but what about the feelings of females ??… Oh wait, they're not as important … I forgot 

I fully understand that schools need to support pupils especially those who may be having a difficult time (for whatever reason), I understand that trans children might need special provisions at times (as other children might) but not to the expense of others feelings/concerns being overloooked


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Yep, the message is 'move over, girls. Lads, carry on because lets face it transmen/boys aren't really a threat to you in any sense of the word so you lose nothing by putting on a show of inclusivity. Win, win for you.'
Funnily enough there are no transmen treading all over men's sports and beating records left and right, nor are there transmen convicted of crime insisting they be allowed into men's prison. I wonder why. It's very easy for men to shove gender non-conforming males into the female category, instead of maybe facing their own prejudice and accepting them as their own.

Here's the rapist who now goes by Karen White, before and after















Moved to a women's prison after transitioning, then, you won't believe this it's so unexpected, sexually assaulted female inmates
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838

Here's child rapist Martin Ponting, now female-identifying and incarcerated in the female estate
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/transgender-rapist-who-attacked-two-10065681

Another violent male Paris Green, moved to the female estate after transitioning and guess what happened
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ng-life-will-receive-80k-gender-reassignment/

Don't think that I'm saying violent crime is a trans thing, it's not. It's a 'dangerous men given an easy way to access their victims because the world has gone insane' thing.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

picaresque said:


> Yep, the message is 'move over, girls. Lads, carry on because lets face it transmen/boys aren't really a threat to you in any sense of the word so you lose nothing by putting on a show of inclusivity. Win, win for you.'
> Funnily enough there are no transmen treading all over men's sports and beating records left and right, nor are there transmen convicted of crime insisting they be allowed into men's prison. I wonder why. It's very easy for men to shove gender non-conforming males into the female category, instead of maybe facing their own prejudice and accepting them as their own.
> 
> ....snip...
> ...


I guess this is one of my major issues. TW don't want to be in male spaces through fear of violence. I get that. I am sure most women would understand how men can make us feel intimidated or threatened.

However, we are not *allowed* to feel that same threat from TW without the accusation of bigotry. I have met a handful of TW and they were perfectly pleasant however they were also clearly at a physical advantage to me. Usually 6ft plus, larger, and more broad. If threatened I would be unable to defend myself. And as a female who has faced male violence in my own life I acutely feel that difference...

TE response to this is that we can't assume they are all violent predators because of a few individuals. But hey... not all men are violent predators who will beat up trans people the vast majority of men are good guys, so why the double standard?

Why are TW allowed to fear male violence but we are not?

In cases of prisons and shelters, I really don't know what the solution is. These people need somewhere safe to go as much as anywhere else but not at the risk or expense of other vulnerable people.

Recently a (trans)woman in Fife who was caught filming and threatening young teenage girls in public toilets, she was a vulnerable person herself and was put into a woman's shelter in the meantime. She was being dealt with for a crime against girls, how was it she was then put with other vulnerable women?? Clearly she couldn't go to a male shelter, she would herself be at risk, but the system shouldn't endanger women for her benefit.. so I really don't know what the solution is. Do we set up specific "non conforming" areas ?? It's a real tough one...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> Yep, the message is 'move over, girls. Lads, carry on because lets face it transmen/boys aren't really a threat to you in any sense of the word so you lose nothing by putting on a show of inclusivity. Win, win for you.'
> Funnily enough there are no transmen treading all over men's sports and beating records left and right, nor are there transmen convicted of crime insisting they be allowed into men's prison. I wonder why. It's very easy for men to shove gender non-conforming males into the female category, instead of maybe facing their own prejudice and accepting them as their own.
> 
> .


This is exactly what I was discussing with my sister regarding trans men ….

I was also wondering if a female child was at school & identified as being a boy so was treated as one would that child then be expected to use the changing room for males? Again I could understand that potentially being problematic for that child, but according to the school rules the child is expected to use the facilities according to the gender they identified with.

I read about that case recently @grumpy goby, yet another example of a crime being committed in a female only space. And as listed by @picaresque there are more occurring than we realise, something we were told wouldn't happen ….

This was quite an interesting website that looks at crimes & statistics - http://transcrimeuk.com/2017/11/16/trans-homicides-in-the-uk-a-closer-look-at-the-numbers/


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Welp


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> Why are TW allowed to fear male violence but we are not?


Have never had a satisfactory answer to this question. 
'They're just toilets you hysterical old bigot, let people pee' - 'Sooo transwomen are safe in the mens?' - 'No they will be murdered' - 'So male violence is real and it's legitimate for women not to want males in women's sex segregated spaces (public toilets included)' - They're just toilets you hysterical old bigot, let people pee'



grumpy goby said:


> In cases of prisons and shelters, I really don't know what the solution is. These people need somewhere safe to go as much as anywhere else but not at the risk or expense of other vulnerable people.
> 
> Recently a (trans)woman in Fife who was caught filming and threatening young teenage girls in public toilets, she was a vulnerable person herself and was put into a woman's shelter in the meantime. She was being dealt with for a crime against girls, how was it she was then put with other vulnerable women?? Clearly she couldn't go to a male shelter, she would herself be at risk, but the system shouldn't endanger women for her benefit.. so I really don't know what the solution is. Do we set up specific "non conforming" areas ?? It's a real tough one...


There needs to be a third option in some cases, like this one. Nobody should be thrown to the wolves.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

picaresque said:


> Have never had a satisfactory answer to this question.
> 'They're just toilets you hysterical old bigot, let people pee' - 'Sooo transwomen are safe in the mens?' - 'No they will be murdered' - 'So male violence is real and it's legitimate for women not to want males in women's sex segregated spaces (public toilets included)' - They're just toilets you hysterical old bigot, let people pee'
> 
> There needs to be a third option in some cases, like this one. Nobody should be thrown to the wolves.


I saw in a paper, maybe the Times (so behind a pay wall) that a "third option" is being trialled in a womans prison in the UK somewhere, following the Karen White incident - I forget where. When 41% of trans women are in for sex related crimes, and so an elevated number when compared to the 19% of the general prison population, a solution is required!

The trans-segregated unit seems like a possible solution, but as its a prison within a prison, and recreationally will still be with the general population, I wonder if its fair for them to use the female prison as experimentation grounds for Male bodied prisoners.... its really tricky to toe the line on this.

ETA found it: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47434730


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

On the subject of changing facilities, my OH was bullied terribly at school and it got worse when people found out she was gay. When changing for P.E. there was a group of girls who tried to campaign so that she couldn't change with the rest of the girls in case she "had a look". That didn't work so they made her face the wall when getting changed


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Sairy said:


> On the subject of changing facilities, my OH was bullied terribly at school and it got worse when people found out she was gay. When changing for P.E. there was a group of girls who tried to campaign so that she couldn't change with the rest of the girls in case she "had a look". That didn't work so they made her face the wall when getting changed


Sorry she had to go through that @Sairy although not surprised.
The amount of young lesbians transitioning to male in such increasing numbers has a lot to do with homophobia imv.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

picaresque said:


> Sorry she had to go through that @Sairy although not surprised.
> This homophobia has a lot to do with young lesbians transitioning to male in such increasing numbers imv.


I don't think it was in this case. This was going back almost 20 years ago now. It affected my OH deeply and will probably always stay with her, along with the other bullying she went through. I believe that it was due to people not understanding and also lack of support from the school (the teacher's reaction was to tell the girls it wasn't possible to move her, not to try and educate people). I'm not going to lie, I do wonder after reading some of the arguments on here whether people would have supported my OH being moved to a seperate changing room on her own. After all, other girls were uncomfortable about her being in the changing rooms with them. I really hope this is not the case though.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> I saw in a paper, maybe the Times (so behind a pay wall) that a "third option" is being trialled in a womans prison in the UK somewhere, following the Karen White incident - I forget where. When 41% of trans women are in for sex related crimes, and so an elevated number when compared to the 19% of the general prison population, a solution is required!
> 
> The trans-segregated unit seems like a possible solution, but as its a prison within a prison, and recreationally will still be with the general population, I wonder if its fair for them to use the female prison as experimentation grounds for Male bodied prisoners.... its really tricky to toe the line on this.
> 
> ETA found it: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47434730


And presumably transmen offenders would not be put in male prisons regardless of their sincerely held gender identity. It would obviously be totally unsafe. So the whole ideology where identity trumps sex is flimsy.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Sairy said:


> I don't think it was in this case. This was going back almost 20 years ago now. It affected my OH deeply and will probably always stay with her, along with the other bullying she went through. I believe that it was due to people not understanding and also lack of support from the school (the teacher's reaction was to tell the girls it wasn't possible to move her, not to try and educate people). I'm not going to lie, I do wonder after reading some of the arguments on here whether people would have supported my OH being moved to a seperate changing room on her own. After all, other girls were uncomfortable about her being in the changing rooms with them. I really hope this is not the case though.


I can't speak for everyone on this thread but gender critical feminists absolutely would not condone excluding lesbians from women's spaces, it's the exact opposite of what they stand for. Probably the majority of the most vocal women in opposition of current trans dogma are lesbian themselves.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sairy said:


> I don't think it was in this case. This was going back almost 20 years ago now. It affected my OH deeply and will probably always stay with her, along with the other bullying she went through. I believe that it was due to people not understanding and also lack of support from the school (the teacher's reaction was to tell the girls it wasn't possible to move her, not to try and educate people). I'm not going to lie, I do wonder after reading some of the arguments on here whether people would have supported my OH being moved to a seperate changing room on her own. After all, other girls were uncomfortable about her being in the changing rooms with them. I really hope this is not the case though.


That's terrible but there used to be so much bullying at my school, I don't think it mattered what the reason was there was always something that certain kids would pick up on.

I doubt any feminist would advocate separation in this instance at all as it is all about women only spaces … for women not men.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

A rather interesting article in the Guardian today:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/06/sport-trans-martina-navratilova

Neatly sums up the ongoing sports debate and why biological sex is more important than psychological gender in the sporting arena.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jesthar said:


> A rather interesting article in the Guardian today:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/06/sport-trans-martina-navratilova
> 
> Neatly sums up the ongoing sports debate and why biological sex is more important than psychological gender in the sporting arena.


I was just coming on here to share Martina Navratilova's blog post:
https://www.martinanavratilova.com/

I think she handles it well. It is a difficult topic, but we have to talk about it, and as she says, we have to be very careful about eliminating discrimination in one are giving rise to discrimination in another.

I know there is a way to talk about these things, but I don't think the usual media "debates" is the place to do it, or for that matter, even on a forum like this. 
I just spent some time at a conference talking about exactly these sorts of things, how to be inclusive to all. I was inspired by how well the very difficult conversations were handled, it's okay to be uncomfortable, in fact maybe even necessary as part of change. I hold out hope for the future that we will figure out a way forward. We're not there yet, but that's okay, we're moving in the right direction


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Just a random aside on the women in sports conversation, I used to compete in equestrian sports, one of the few where men and women compete equally. I've heard it said that women rock-climbers are pretty comprable to men also as their flexibility gives them an advantage. 
I'm also interested in some research coming out on ultra endurance events where it appears women are starting to catch up to men and even overtake them. It seems us women have muscles that endure a little bit better than men's. More research is needed though


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> I was just coming on here to share Martina Navratilova's blog post:
> https://www.martinanavratilova.com/
> 
> I think she handles it well. It is a difficult topic, but we have to talk about it, and as she says, we have to be very careful about eliminating discrimination in one are giving rise to discrimination in another.
> ...


I dont agree, I think the only way forward is to have conversations no matter how difficult they are in the mainstream media. Everyone should be able to ask questions, everyone's opinion should be listened to, no one should feel afraid to discuss or to question but unfortunately that seems to be the way we are going.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I agree, holding conferences behind closed doors with a select few isn't the way forward. 

https://www.the42.ie/paula-radcliffe-4526632-Mar2019/

Paula Radcliffe has also spoken out.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Sairy said:


> I don't think it was in this case. This was going back almost 20 years ago now. It affected my OH deeply and will probably always stay with her, along with the other bullying she went through. I believe that it was due to people not understanding and also lack of support from the school (the teacher's reaction was to tell the girls it wasn't possible to move her, not to try and educate people). I'm not going to lie, I do wonder after reading some of the arguments on here whether people would have supported my OH being moved to a seperate changing room on her own. After all, other girls were uncomfortable about her being in the changing rooms with them. I really hope this is not the case though.


I really hope so too. It was like the crackers idea that if someone was gay they immediately fancied EVERYONE of their sex. Which is plainly bonkers.

A good friend of mine who later came out as gay used to work with me in a late night health club. We would regularly change together and I know that if she had told me how it was for her (I'm sad she didn't, but it was a long time ago) it wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Here is another story that shows how complex the issue is, and how we really need to figure out how to be fair to ALL participants in the sport.

Mack Beggs is currently transitioning to male, and asked to compete as a male, but the rules as written state he has to compete under the sex on his birth certificate. So despite his testosterone treatments as part of his transition, he's competing against women and winning - a lot. 
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...r-wins-second-high-school-girls-title-n851106

Now, personally I don't think it's fair to make him compete with men either. Though I do think it shows good sportsmanship on his part that he asked for it.

As already mentioned, a male to female transgender competitor in the women's division of MMA beat the snot out of her opponents, and according to the commentary I heard, she wasn't particularly skilled, just stronger (disclaimer, I know nothing about fighting sports). Joe Rogan who is knowledgeable about MMA, though he is not very sensitive in how he discusses these things, but he does have a point. Basically he says that legally, people should be recognized as the gender they want, but sport has to address this issue differently. And he came from a place of huge concern for the cisgender women having the shit beat out of them (his words).


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Here is another story that shows how complex the issue is, and how we really need to figure out how to be fair to ALL participants in the sport.
> 
> Mack Beggs is currently transitioning to male, and asked to compete as a male, but the rules as written state he has to compete under the sex on his birth certificate. So despite his testosterone treatments as part of his transition, he's competing against women and winning - a lot.
> https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...r-wins-second-high-school-girls-title-n851106
> ...


Once he has a GRC ( in UK at leastdont know about other countries) it supercedes the birth certificate and then he will be able to compete in the gender he presents as

not saying anything else on the subject other than to say this, 
as someone who has had a trans partner, who was male to female, this thread has made me very sad, and, shown me that _*some*_ really havent come very far, from the days of homosexuality being an imprisonable offence, to the end that I firmly believe _*some*_, who have commented, would advocate electric and conversion therapy, rather than share a cubicled area, with a transperson
I would hate to be a transitioning person or parent of, and, read this thread, talk about being left with a feeling of vilification and not being able to be who I happened to be
mind i suppose they would see straight out that no matter how deep an animal lover, theyre not welcome from the get go


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

mrs phas said:


> Once he has a GRC ( in UK at leastdont know about other countries) it supercedes the birth certificate and then he will be able to compete in the gender he presents as
> 
> not saying anything else on the subject other than to say this,
> as someone who has had a trans partner, who was male to female, this thread has made me very sad, and, shown me that _*some*_ really havent come very far, from the days of homosexuality being an imprisonable offence, to the end that I firmly believe _*some*_, who have commented, would advocate electric and conversion therapy, rather than share a cubicled area, with a transperson
> ...


I am sorry you feel like that about this thread, personally I don't think anyone has been disrespectful at all but discussed issues, concerns & cases in the media. I don't think anyone has or would advocate any aversive 'therapies' to anyone but I do think that some people would feel uncomfortable sharing female only areas with biological males & that has been discussed… some may not but those that do should not silenced & told they are 'transphobic' for expressing their concerns.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Sadly for the majority of reasonable Tran* people, there is a real feeling of trans-activism being *forced* upon women to "put up and shut up", and damn anyone who has an opinion - to the point of being removed from debates, no-platformed and removed from positions held for many years. That kind of silencing is what bubbles up ill feeling amongst the general populous. If we are not allowed to voice our concerns; then where are we left?

I do think alot of the silencing tactics are from extremists of the Trans* community - but man are they loud and they appear to be gaining traction and power which continues to drive the conversation underground.
Trans* people online talking about things like "lady brains" is going backwards wrt equality, focusing on the looks of Cis-women and aesthetics does zero for their cause - it just riles people up (Rachael McKinnon recently said Sharron Davis wouldnt pass the "eye test" - exactly what is she implying here?). One woman went around trying to *sue *beauticians for refusing to wax her male genitalia...

And we also need to address the very real issue of gender non-conforming, and LGB youths being encouraged to transition too early, because they are confusing gender stereotypes with gender identity and there are de-transitioned youth who are also trying to speak out on this and being silenced. Trans* people who dont tow the party line are also verbally attacked - India Willoughby isnt popular this week for being on the wrong side of the sports debate. Miranda Yardley and Debbie Hayton were already pretty unpopular.

I personally have *zero* issues with a male bodied individual wanting to be known as a woman, I know a handful of TW and a TM and fully support them in their choice of pronouns and identity. And they should not face violence or prejudice as a result. They should be able to work, live and breathe as the rest of us. The general bathroom conversation is a bit of a storm in a teacup.. but that is different to the vulnerable spaces, and elements like sport which reward inherent physiological advantage.
However, they cannot change biological reality - male puberty gives men different hips, more muscle mass, higher red blood cell count, broader chests, denser bones - they literally are the stronger sex and transition does not change that, but any cis or trans* person who dares discuss that fact is shut down.

There are issues which need sensible, and open, debate. The debate needs to be inclusive of women who are affected directly by the changes being introduced - excluded female athletes from the sports conversation is exclusionary, and attacking those brave enough to speak up is no better. Excluding women from debates who have experiance in domestic violence shelters is exclusionary.
No-platforming women who are academics in the social and equality legal environment from debates surrounding the impact of trans-activism of equality laws is exclusionary - and none of this helps us solve the issues and concerns at hand, it just makes us feel like our experiences and expertise bare no importance when someones feelings are involved.

I would love to be an "ally" to the Trans community, however at the current state of affairs and the manner in which women with reasonable opinions are being hounded, attacked and cautioned is holding me back. Way back. Because I don't feel like I can ask any questions, and that is counter-productive.

Questioning current events is not an attack on trans people. It is not taking away their rights to exist, and its not akin to conversion therapies or any such thing. It is asking that the rights and safety of women are considered when male bodied individuals are included into female spaces. Especially when it comes to venerable womens spaces - when criminals who idetify as trans are disporportiatly in for sexual violence then we need to address that as an issue.
This *isnt *saying all Transwomen are rapists, but it does need to address that amongst the criminal trans community, it is a disproportionate factor we need to consider when looking at housing them. Similarly, TW from difficult backgrounds that are being investigated for sexually charged crimes - housing them in female shelters with women who are already vunerable seems unfair on the current residents (ie the incident in Fife)
Common sense needs to prevail sometimes...


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

It's kind of expected that people will conflate trans issues with (mostly) past (in the west at least) treatment of homosexuality, except being LGB doesn't involve any medicalisation, whereas young trans-identified people, many of whom are same sex attracted, are 'fixed' by being given puberty blockers followed by synthetic hormones (long term use of which has consequences we don't even fully know yet) and major surgery involving the removal of healthy body parts.* What was that about conversion therapy

*again, many PFers won't do this to their _dogs, _certainly not ones still developing

(warning, graphic)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1101874650299097090


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

@grumpy goby Amazing post which entirely and clearly explains the current situation - a thousand likes!


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