# Dangerous dog act



## rottweiler1 (Nov 7, 2007)

What does people think if Gordon Brown brings this new dog act in that all Rotties, pit bulls, doberman etc will have to be muzzled and kept on leads all the time.

I am dead against I have a rottie and I think it will be very cruel to the dog I have signed a petition against it happening.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2008)

I went to our country park and we passed two seperate Rotties along the path with my and other dogs going both directions and people with babies on their Sunday river walk, and no-one acted off towards the Rotts or their owners and the dogs themselves were just mooching along good naturedly, so glad to see that at lest the public down the river walk where most people walk their dogs were not taking the breed hype on board. 

I live in North East Bristol


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## Solitaire (Jan 6, 2008)

Rotties and Dobes have to be muzzled and on leads over here as they are in Category 2 under the dangerous dogs law, you also have to register them with the local mayor and Gendarmes, who have the right to shoot your dog if it is thought the be dangrous and out of control. The was a case recently where dogs were shot dead in their own garden while the owner was out.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

Solitaire said:


> Rotties and Dobes have to be muzzled and on leads over here as they are in Category 2 under the dangerous dogs law, you also have to register them with the local mayor and Gendarmes, who have the right to shoot your dog if it is thought the be dangrous and out of control. The was a case recently where dogs were shot dead in their own garden while the owner was out.


that's awful!! It amazes me that people in positions of power do not have the basic intelligence to realise it's all down to ownership and they continue to genralise an entire breed...


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## Solitaire (Jan 6, 2008)

There have quite a few dog attacks over here lately but it's the responsible owners that get penalised as usual.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

there just trying to cover there own backs ! I like rottys but i have never known one that couldent be fierce towward someone if it wanted to ! the way they look at it is if a dogs that fierce then it should be muzzled !


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## Solitaire (Jan 6, 2008)

dh.dti because over here the French don't consider themselves bad owners , their attitude to "pets" is totally different, some thngs I have read would make you cry but I don't think they will ever change.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2008)

As I have said before and will continue to do so the DDA/BSL doesn't work,it is a totally useless piece of legislation.It is unenforceable and unworkable.It doesn't get to the root cause of the problem,it targets the wrong end of the lead.Until the Issue of Poor Irresponsible Ownership is addressed we will continue to see dog attacks and still fatal ones.The DDA/BSL was bought in because of a spate of similar attacks in the late 80's early 90's yet has made no impact whatsoever,the evidence was there for all to see New Years Day 2007.

We need legislation brought in that makes ALL dog owners accountable for their dogs actions regardless of breed.
All dogs in the wrong hands have the potential to be dangerous,regardless of breed.

As for muzzling in public,I don't believe in it.There will always be an irresponsible moron who doesn't play by the rules.A dog can't defend itself wearing a muzzle.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> As I have said before and will continue to do so the DDA/BSL doesn't work,it is a totally useless piece of legislation.It is unenforceable and unworkable.It doesn't get to the root cause of the problem,it targets the wrong end of the lead.Until the Issue of Poor Irresponsible Ownership is addressed we will continue to see dog attacks and still fatal ones.The DDA/BSL was bought in because of a spate of similar attacks in the late 80's early 90's yet has made no impact whatsoever,the evidence was there for all to see New Years Day 2007.
> 
> We need legislation brought in that makes ALL dog owners accountable for their dogs actions regardless of breed.
> All dogs in the wrong hands have the potential to be dangerous,regardless of breed.
> ...


but why does a dog as fierce as lets say rottie need to defend himself in a public place ! thats a silly statement if you ask me ! any dog breed thats been known to be fierce toward people should be muzzeled by law !


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

garryd said:


> but why does a dog as fierce as lets say rottie need to defend himself in a public place ! thats a silly statement if you ask me ! any dog breed thats been known to be fierce toward people should be muzzeled by law !


i agree, i think any dog that has been known to be agressive should be muzzled, though i do disagree with tarring them all with the same brush...


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

garryd said:


> but why does a dog as fierce as lets say rottie need to defend himself in a public place ! thats a silly statement if you ask me ! any dog breed thats been known to be fierce toward people should be muzzeled by law !


I don't think Rotties are Fierce,any dog whether it be a JR or a Rottie has the potential to kill,we need better tighter legislation that legislates for ALL BREEDS & making owners accountable for there dogs actions.
I'm talking about if any dog was to attack it,It has no way of defending itself if it's muzzled.
Dogs that are Dog Aggressive are not necessarily aggressive towards humans,the two do not go hand in hand.


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

dh.dti said:


> Are you both refering to a breed of dog which is known to be fierce?
> (sorry for repeating myself But...)
> In reality a dog that is not socialised should be muzzled regardless of the breed.


im talking about any breed that shows any kind of aggression towards humans or other animals


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

dh.dti said:


> Thank you
> 
> This is why i think a system like this would work:
> 
> ...


yep i agree, at the end of the day owners are responsible for their own dogs, if the cant look after them and train them properly then they arent fit to have them in the first place and should be prosecuted.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

bullyb said:


> im talking about any breed that shows any kind of aggression towards humans or other animals


My bitch is ok with some dogs others she hates with a passion.She has been well trained & socialised since a young puppy.
Take for example what happened to her,walking back from our walk,a loose JR run towards her & attacked her,no owner in sight,now if she was muzzled there is noway she could have defended herself.

I have her under control on-lead at all times,I know she won't tolerate some dogs,but if my dog is under control on-lead I see no reason to muzzle her.I shout to other owners if there dogs are loose to put them on-lead.Most of them have poorly trained dogs with no recall.
We have had many close scrapes - which none have been our fault.If dogs are trained correctly and kept under proper control they don't need muzzles.


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> My bitch is ok with some dogs others she hates with a passion.She has been well trained & socialised since a young puppy.
> Take for example what happened to her,walking back from our walk,a loose JR run towards her & attacked her,no owner in sight,now if she was muzzled there is noway she could have defended herself.
> 
> I have her under control on-lead at all times,I know she won't tolerate some dogs,but if my dog is under control on-lead I see no reason to muzzle her.I shout to other owners if there dogs are loose to put them on-lead.Most of them have poorly trained dogs with no recall.
> We have had many close scrapes - which none have been our fault.If dogs are trained correctly and kept under proper control they don't need muzzles.


i agree with you that they should be on a lead but as far as im concerned you could have the nicest dog in the world but if it has or has had a tendancy to go for other animals....muzzle it


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

bullyb said:


> i agree with you that they should be on a lead but as far as im concerned you could have the nicest dog in the world but if it has or has had a tendancy to go for other animals....muzzle it


But Why if they are under proper control?

Staffords are well known not to tolerate other dogs,it's part of the breed & history.I won't muzzle my bitch because she dislikes some other dogs.It doesn't make me irresponsible.The irresponsible ones are those who have off lead dogs with no recall, which by all accounts are poorly trained .ALL dogs should have reliable recall before been allowed off-lead.


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> But Why if they are under proper control?
> 
> Staffords are well known not to tolerate other dogs,it's part of the breed & history.I won't muzzle my bitch because she dislikes some other dogs.It doesn't make me irresponsible.The irresponsible ones are those who have off lead dogs with no recall, which by all accounts are poorly trained .ALL dogs should have reliable recall before been allowed off-lead.


all im saying is...if im out with my dog and you come along with your dog 'on a lead' and it goes for my dog (on a lead) then your dog should be muzzled, simple as that


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

bullyb said:


> all im saying is...if im out with my dog and you come along with your dog 'on a lead' and it goes for my dog (on a lead) then your dog should be muzzled, simple as that


She wouldn't be allowed to do that,as she is under proper control all the time.As I said,she dislikes some, others she's ok with.She's usually fine unless the other dog challenges her,or is aggressive towards her. I can read her body language and I act accordingly.


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> She wouldn't be allowed to do that,as she is under proper control all the time.As I said,she dislikes some, others she's ok with.She's usually fine unless the other dog challenges her,or is aggressive towards her. I can read her body language and I act accordingly.


i think on this one we are just gonna have to agree to disagree... what i will say is i breed dogs and strive to make them good, obediant pets. if they ever went or showed aggression toward another dog i would muzzle them.
i think we should end this here, we are never gonna agree on this subject


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

Animal aggression in dogs is a tricky one. I have socialised my dog from a pup with other dogs from a pup to try and prevent this and so far so good. However you can have a dog that is not at all animal agressive but he only has to have a minor tiff in a park with another dog and it can change his attitude towards other dogs. I've seen this before but luckily not in my dogs.

I always put my dog on a lead when in a park if children are around. Ok I trust my dog with children but I shoudln't expect other parents to so I do it out of respect for them and think all dog owners should regardless of how your dog is around children. I think a good solution would be to have dog parks like they do in the States.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

Magik said:


> Animal aggression in dogs is a tricky one. I have socialised my dog from a pup with other dogs from a pup to try and prevent this and so far so good. However you can have a dog that is not at all animal agressive but he only has to have a minor tiff in a park with another dog and it can change his attitude towards other dogs. I've seen this before but luckily not in my dogs.
> 
> I always put my dog on a lead when in a park if children are around. Ok I trust my dog with children but I shoudln't expect other parents to so I do it out of respect for them and think all dog owners should regardless of how your dog is around children. I think a good solution would be to have dog parks like they do in the States.


Great Post!
I had a dog come back to us, a complete nightmare he was with other dogs.
He was attacked when he was a young puppy,he never seemed to get over it.
He was aggressive to all dogs,but it was based purely on fear.We had him back because his owners could no longer cope with him.Now O/h turned him around and worked with him,he was eventually rehomed to a good close family friend and lived in harmony with a JR.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

In my book in some breeds a muzzel should be as important as a lead ! Why i circle out the rotty is because my bull terrier was running lose in a feild once when a loose rotty came over allso running loose ! The owner at first was nowhere to be seen  the dog started barking at me wich i gotta say scared the poo outa me then it barked at my bull terrier but started trying playing vey rough ,the dog became more and more fierce snapping at my dog ! then all hell broke out and enevitavle fight started ! my dog started ripping lumps and lumps of black hair out of this rotty ! so i dived in between them trying my hardest to stop it! by this time my dog had locked his jaw on the rottys ear and wasnt letting go ! my heart was pounding as ever time i tryed to get my dog off the other dog went for me ! then the owner showed up who was a girl and all of about 8st and about 18yrs  with no lead ! when managed to get them apart the rottys ear was in a bad way ! it was bleeding and needed to go to the vet whom at to stich it back on! mmy dog wasnt hurt atall but did loose the tip of one of his teeth !


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

garryd said:


> In my book in some breeds a muzzel should be as important as a lead ! Why i circle out the rotty is because my bull terrier was running lose in a feild once when a loose rotty came over allso running loose ! The owner at first was nowhere to be seen  the dog started barking at me wich i gotta say scared the poo outa me then it barked at my bull terrier but started trying playing vey rough ,the dog became more and more fierce snapping at my dog ! then all hell broke out and enevitavle fight started ! my dog started ripping lumps and lumps of black hair out of this rotty ! so i dived in between them trying my hardest to stop it! by this time my dog had locked his jaw on the rottys ear and wasnt letting go ! my heart was pounding as ever time i tryed to get my dog off the other dog went for me ! then the owner showed up who was a girl and all of about 8st and about 18yrs  with no lead ! when managed to get them apart the rottys ear was in a bad way ! it was bleeding and needed to go to the vet whom at to stich it back on! mmy dog wasnt hurt atall but did loose the tip of one of his teeth !


totally agree!!


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

if that dog would have been muzzeled then it couldent have started the fight ! my dog just protected himself and hes never started a fight in his life ! for the record i like rottys but i dont think some people should own them ! the owner of the rotty wanted me to pay there £300 vet bill and was quick to point out that my dog was not injurerd in the fight ,i told them were to go


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

garryd said:


> if that dog would have been muzzeled then it couldent have started the fight ! my dog just protected himself and hes never started a fight in his life ! for the record i like rottys but i dont think some people should own them ! the owner of the rotty wanted me to pay there £300 vet bill and was quick to point out that my dog was not injurerd in the fight ,i told them were to go


this is the piont i was trying to put accross to sallyanne earlier in the thread...


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

If both dogs had been under total control and had leads on,the fight would not have occurred either.

I would say that was 50/50 both to blame.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2008)

dh.dti said:


> Maybe if your Bull Terrier had been on a lead the whole thing may not have happened, as it did happen you can't lay the blame solely on the Rottie, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
> Both Dogs with bad reputations off the lead is a recipe for disaster.
> IMHO...


  my bull terrier and me dident make the first move did we !?? the rotty came over to me and my dog and started not just on me but on my dog ! bang it started ! my dog was with me its owner ! and my dog is not people or dog aggresive ! in fact my dog is so frendly he would go home with the mikman!
And the last time i looked a bull terrier hasent killed any kidds have they !


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> my bull terrier and me dident make the first move did we !?? the rotty came over to me and my dog and started not just on me but on my dog ! bang it started ! my dog was with me its owner ! and my dog is not people or dog aggresive ! in fact my dog is so frendly he would go home with the mikman!
> And the last time i looked a bull terrier hasent killed any kidds have they !


Both dogs were to blame as both were off lead and not under total control.
Maybe a Bull Terrier hasn't killed a child recently but there have been incidents in the past involving this breed,as there have with numerous other breeds.

Been friendly with people doesn't guarentee anything,it doesn't automatically make them friendly with other dogs.If your dog had been onlead and you thought the other dog was a threat you could have turned and walked the other way.Some dogs are naturally vocal,it doesn't mean they are about to launch a full blown attack.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

I think we should have dog parks where people can take there dogs and have them off lead - everyone there would know what to expect. Other than that I would be happy to keep my dog on the lead. Regardless of how much we trust our dogs I think it shows respect and responsible ownership to keep your dog leashed when other people/dogs are near.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

I don't see how you can say all dogs of a certain breed should be muzzled because some dogs of this breed have shown aggression. As a dog trainers we have dealt with thousands of dogs over the years who are showing aggression to dogs and/or people, of all different breeds. However I would always recommend to our clients that until we stop the aggressive behaviours the dogs should wear a correctly fitting baskerville muzzle when out in public. My problem with having the dog just on a lead is this is only as secure as the person holding the lead, some people are able to keep hold of the lead, others let go as the dog flies. Sallyanne is correct the dog is classed in law as under control when on lead, and someone like her who is experienced and physically able would rather die than let her lead go, for those who are not this responsible a muzzle provides safety.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> I don't see how you can say all dogs of a certain breed should be muzzled because some dogs of this breed have shown aggression. As a dog trainers we have dealt with thousands of dogs over the years who are showing aggression to dogs and/or people, of all different breeds. However I would always recommend to our clients that until we stop the aggressive behaviours the dogs should wear a correctly fitting baskerville muzzle when out in public. My problem with having the dog just on a lead is this is only as secure as the person holding the lead, some people are able to keep hold of the lead, others let go as the dog flies. Sallyanne is correct the dog is classed in law as under control when on lead, and someone like her who is experienced and physically able would rather die than let her lead go, for those who are not this responsible a muzzle provides safety.


I agree but with how things are at the moment what else can be done and if it saved one childs life and one dogs life wouldn't it be worth it?


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

but i allways thought rottys had to be muzzeled by law??? know my dog doesnt does he????


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

but doesnt the rotty come under the dangerous dog act!


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

garryd said:


> but doesnt the rotty come under the dangerous dog act!


Any dog who is out of control in a public place and likely to cause injury comes under the DDA regardless of breed. Rotties are not one of the breeds who have to be muzzled under the DDA.


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

personally... if i had a rotty i would muzzle it, if nothing else just to put peoples minds and my own at ease


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## bullyb (Nov 2, 2007)

dh.dti said:


> Responsibility
> 
> This is why i keep my Akita's on their long leather leads, to reasurre the public they are under control


yep me too with my bullys


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

agree with you... it's about respecting others. We dont have a right to gamble with other peoples kids/pets no matter how sure we are about our dogs!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

i aint scared of much on 2 legs but rottys scare the crap outa me  i do prefer the akita to a rotty though! much better looking than the devil dog anyday


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Any dog can be aggressive with the right provocation/stimulus. All but the most tiny and toothless can cause injury and death, as can cattle, horses, well maybe not sheep?

As for training. My friend who used to compete in Obedience at the highest levels until ill health prevented her from being able to walk a course at different speeds and on rough ground.

She runs a Pet training class, and we get a lot of referrals from Bristol Dogs home.

We were very fortunate to find a hall that would allow dogs in after loosing the Local Authority hall due to refurbishment. this is a private hall owned by a group of old chaps (Moose), and we were allowed to have the hall as long as we cleaned it throughout after class (saves him employing a cleaner).

My friend told me the other night that she doesn't know how much longer we can keep going as on occasions we don't have enough training to pay for the hall and people are not willing to pay more than £2 a lesson.

Until the authorities provide some kind of facilities for dog training, with reliable trainers then any scheme that made people go to training classes would fail.

Also there are many people experienced in dogs who will do their own training and socialisation without recourse to any class or scheme.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> but doesnt the rotty come under the dangerous dog act!


It's very suprizing how many people think certain breeds fall under the DDA/BSL but No the Rottie isn't one of them.

In the mainland Great Britain, four breeds are currently subject to BSL under the Dangerous Dogs Act (DDA):

The Japanese Tosa
The Pit Bull Terrier
The Dogo Argentino
Fila Braziliero
We must, however, also be aware that 'types' of these dogs are also affected. This means that your dog doesn't have to be a Pit Bull or Tosa to be subject to the DDA: it simply has display physical and behavioural characteristics similar to those displayed in breeds covered by the act.
The addition of the word 'type' complicates classification, because the guidelines are based predominantly on appearance and are open to misinterpretation, whether deliberate or accidental. According to these guidelines, a labrador could be described as 90% pit bull due to the broadly described physical categories - and no guidelines are offered to help officials decide whether behaviour is synonymous with a breed or type. These guidelines - and the room they leave for interpretation - is a real cause for concern in the climate of fear and paranoia, as under British law it is an offence to own, keep, gift, breed from or sell any of the dogs mentioned above.

However, the 1991 Act was amended by the Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) Act of 1997. This amendment has been widely welcomed, as it acknowledges the fact that not all dogs who are deemed to be of a 'type' mentioned in the Act pose a threat to the public, and as such need not always be put to sleep. We cannot over-emphisise the importance of this amendment: it states that no dog need be destroyed if the court is satisfied that it constitutes no danger to public safety. Instead, once the court is satisfied of their suitable temperament and their owner's commitment to responsible care, dogs may be registered on the Index of Exempted Dogs, microchipped, neutered and returned to their owner's care.

After the introduction of the DDA, many owners applied to add their dogs to the Index of Exemption. In the years that followed, not a single one injured another animal or person. However, in the years following the DDA, the rate of incidents and deaths involving dogs have not decreased: a clear indication that BSL isn't working, and that it's time for a different approach.


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## rottweiler1 (Nov 7, 2007)

I was also told today while I was taking my rottie for a walk that if this law comes into effect you will not be allowed to have any dog within this act with children under the age of 16 that will mean I will have to do something with my Rottie.

In plymouth where I live we have a doggie meeting every morning where all sorts of dogs are of leads and not muzzled at one time there was 15 dogs on the field and they all get on really well. I think it is wonderful to see so many dogs of all breeds and ages getting on.

It is ok though to have a drunk or a junkie bringing up children in their home.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Tragic as any attack especially a fatal one on a child is I think people forget to get this in proportion. 

There were 6,575 Rottweiler pups registered with the Kennel club in 2006 making them the the 11th most popular breed registered with the Kennel club. I don't now what proportion of the breed are also bred without registrations too. 

Assuming an average lifespan of 10 years that would give us at least 65 and a half thousand of the breed in the UK, almost all living blame free lives in loving families.

How many children are killed crossing the road each year? How may killed by their own parents?

I don't see it at all reasonable for all the lovely well mannered dogs and their responsible owners should suffer for the actions of a few.

Every one of these recent dog attack cases resulted from human error.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

rottweiler1 said:


> I was also told today while I was taking my rottie for a walk that if this law comes into effect you will not be allowed to have any dog within this act with children under the age of 16 that will mean I will have to do something with my Rottie.
> 
> In plymouth where I live we have a doggie meeting every morning where all sorts of dogs are of leads and not muzzled at one time there was 15 dogs on the field and they all get on really well. I think it is wonderful to see so many dogs of all breeds and ages getting on.
> 
> It is ok though to have a drunk or a junkie bringing up children in their home.


I think the 16 thing relates to someone being in charge of a dog. Though I may be wrong, who knows what draconian restrictions they will dream up for law abiding sensible dog owners to follow knowing full well the irresponsible will ignore them anyway.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

if you have a breed of dog attacking/maiming /killing kids and offten, then as the owners arent sensible enough the breed should be banned as a precaution to protect the public ! we are talking about kids !


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> if you have a breed of dog attacking/maiming /killing kids and offten, then as the owners arent sensible enough the breed should be banned as a precaution to protect the public ! we are talking about kids !


Sorry but I don't agree with that at all,we have endured 16yrs of the DDA/BSL it simply doesn't work.It doesn't protect the public either! 
85% of dog attacks occur on Private Property.
The reason the DDA/BSL was brought in was because of a spate of dog attacks on children,this has not decreased under the DDA.

The idiots that choose breeds for an image ego status will simply move on to another,so end result,ALL BREEDS BANNED.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> if you have a breed of dog attacking/maiming /killing kids and offten, then as the owners arent sensible enough the breed should be banned as a precaution to protect the public ! we are talking about kids !


We are talking banning over 65 thousand dogs becasue of a few tragic events caused by people. Any dog in the wrong hands can become dangerous or be put into a situation where it becomes dangerous.

With that logic the motor car should have been banned long ago, or car engines should be limited to 50mph to make them safer.

There have been fatal attacks by many dog breeds, including Jack Russel terriers.

This site gives the fatal dog attacks in the USA over many years. Fatal dog attacks United States

Bear in mind their population Population: 301,139,947 compared to UK 60,776,238.

More US statistics here: Facts & Stats about Dog Bites that point out that the breeds involved in bite attacks change with their popularity.

Seem to be very few statistics for the UK by breed.

It is interesting that apart from Pit bulls and rottweilers the breeds in the US with most fatalities are then Chows and Huskies?

So how many breeds would you want banned?

Surely it is about responsible ownership and especially ethical responsible breeding and homing of dogs in the first place.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

As Brainless has already pointed out most attacks happen in peoples own home or garden, unless all dogs are muzzled at all times I don't see how it will help. Caution must always be uppermost in your mind when dealing with dogs and children. Although I am a dog owner, when my children where young I was always extremely careful around other peoples dogs, if I didn't trust someones dog, my children would not visit their house.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

Brainless said:


> We are talking banning over 65 thousand dogs becasue of a few tragic events caused by people. Any dog in the wrong hands can become dangerous or be put into a situation where it becomes dangerous.
> 
> With that logic the motor car should have been banned long ago, or car engines should be limited to 50mph to make them safer.
> 
> ...


 look i dont wanna ban the rotty or anybodys pet but if only one breed continued attacking people then what do you wanna do ??? surley its not only the rottys owners faut !? its breed specific surly ! OR THEN WHY DONT WE LET ALL OWNERS ALLSO HAVE LARGE MOUNTAIN CATS ON LEADS TO WALK AROUND OUR STREETS WITH ???? THAT WOULD BE OK THEN!?? AS LONG AS WE ARE RESPONSIBLE


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2008)

garryd said:


> look i dont wanna ban the rotty or anybodys pet but if only one breed continued attacking people then what do you wanna do ??? surley its not only the rottys owners faut !? its breed specific surly ! OR THEN WHY DONT WE LET ALL OWNERS ALLSO HAVE LARGE MOUNTAIN CATS ON LEADS TO WALK AROUND OUR STREETS WITH ???? THAT WOULD BE OK THEN!?? AS LONG AS WE ARE RESPONSIBLE


Right firstly there are hundreds of dogs that attack all different breeds,It is NOT BREED SPECIFIC.
We have BREED SPEIFIC LEGISLATION in place has this done anything to prevent attacks,if it worked why have we still got Pitts in the UK.This STUPID piece of legislation did nothing to prevent Ellie been Killed.

The media will have you believe it's breed related but it's not,not every dog of a certain breed will attack,so when you say breed speific,you are stating all dogs of that breed are dangerous,when that is not the case.
The dogs that bite most frequently in the uk are Collies and Labs,but these do not have the impact in the press that the bull breeds & Rotts have.

You have answered your own question,it's the owner and we need tighter legislation to cover all breeds & make owners accountable for there dogs actions regardless of breed,if a dog kills a child charges of murder/manslaughter should be brought.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

where i used to live, you had to walk down an alley to get to the park,, and the house there had a rotty,, and every time someone walked down there it flew at the fence,going crazy,,,,it could fit its head out the fence,, my god it made you jump,, every time i walked down there i was on edge,, i knew it was there, and that it would fly at the fence,,but it still frightened the life out of me,,and i used to think, my god if that got out, it would rip me to bits,,, i was terrified of it,, and it was BIG, and it belonged to a vicar, i have had a fear of rottys ever since,,,,,


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Getting back to subject Garry does have a point. If it saves just one childs life and one dogs life a ban would be worthwhile. But it's not the answer... I think new laws should be introduced to regulate ownership of large breeds. I think all responsible owners would support this.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Magik said:


> Getting back to subject Garry does have a point. If it saves just one childs life and one dogs life a ban would be worthwhile. But it's not the answer... I think new laws should be introduced to regulate ownership of large breeds. I think all responsible owners would support this.


Magik you hit the nail firmly on the head ! at last a sencible veiw point!


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

yes... but there are less attacks from pitbulls these days as they are harder to get hold of... well not hard at all really. there's even a couple for sale on pets4homes...they are renamed as 'IRISH STAFFS'. 

There's no easy answer... the only real solution is to get rid of the scum who buy these digs for the wrong reasons


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

garryd said:


> Magik you hit the nail firmly on the head ! at last a sencible veiw point!


 thank you...


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Magik said:


> yes... but there are less attacks from pitbulls these days as they are harder to get hold of... well not hard at all really. there's even a couple for sale on pets4homes...they are renamed as 'IRISH STAFFS'.
> 
> There's no easy answer... the only real solution is to get rid of the scum who buy these digs for the wrong reasons


So how do you suggest we do that ? Actually no, please don't tell me.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

I think we should get the scum bags... drag them out to the country side... give them a 1 minutes start and let the fox hunters chase them with their dogs and horses and hunt them down... they'll stop moaning about losing their so called sport and we'll get rid of the scum bags... everyone's a winner!


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Thought it might be something like that, don't think you'll get it passed by parliament though.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

dh.dti said:


> It isn't just owners of large breeds which are a problem, this really should be for all owners full stop!


yes but only the large breeds have the capability of killing someone and are the only breeds which are bought for fighting etc


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

dh.dti said:


> Oh come on...
> 
> Thought even you had more sense than that, Any dog regardless of size is capable of killing / maiming


Agreed they are, especially when children are involved, and I'd hardly describe a pit bull (or irish Bull) as a large breed. Although I agree a larger dog with a larger bite can do more damage in a short space of time.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

dh.dti said:


> Oh come on...
> 
> Thought even you had more sense than that, Any dog regardless of size is capable of killing / maiming


agreed. but it's not any dog that does attack. It tends to be the same ones! why? because certain large breeds attract bad owners causing this behaviour. And can you imagine trying to police the ownership of all breeds of dogs.. it would be an impossible task. But if you were to regulate ownership of the larger breeds it would be much easier to control.

Most (not all) dog attacks are down to bad owners who have bought and trained their dog for the wrong reasons! They need to be targeted!


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Magik said:


> ....... I think new laws should be introduced to regulate ownership of large breeds. I think all responsible owners would support this.


Trouble is that has been done already and unduly restricts the lives of so many people and their dogs.

In some parts of Germany All dogs that reach a shoulder height of over 40 cm (approximately 16 inches) at full maturity or a weight of over 20 kg (44 pounds) are subject to dangerous dog regulations in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia.

All these dogs have to be kept on lead at all times.

This includes many breeds that are most popular in the UK.

Of the 20 most popular breeds in the UK of 2006 this would cover:

2006 Top 20 Breed Registrations
23-Jan-07

Ranking, Breed, No. of registrations

1. Retriever (Labrador) 45,700 
2. Spaniel (Cocker) 20,459 
(well large male could just reach the 40cm,as standard is up to 39cm)
3. Spaniel (English Springer) 15,133 
4. German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian) 12,857 
5. Staffordshire Bull Terrier 12,729 
7. Retriever (Golden) 9,373 
9. Boxer 9,066 
11. Rottweiler 6,575 
16. Bulldog 3,522 
17. Dobermann 3,388 
18. Bull Terrier 3,361 
19. Weimaraner 2,744

Now multiply the annual registration figures by 10 at least and you will have an idea of the number of dogs that could be affected.

Out of interest breeds that are actually listed as dangerous (the ones with a star are subject to outright ban) requiring special regulation in Germany are (I have enboldened those I know are present in the UK and underlined those subject to an outright ban):

*- Akbas (known here under the Anatolian shepherd umbrella)*)
- Alano
- American Staffordshire Terrier *
*- Bandog (bullbreed crosses with staff)*- *Berger de Beauce (Beauceron)*
-* Berger de Brie (Briard)*
*- Bullmastiff*
*- Bull-terrier **
*- Cane Corso*
- Carpatin
- Chinesischer Kampfhund (Chinese fighting dog)
*- Dobermann*
- Dogo Argentino 
*- Dogue de Bordeaux*
-* Estrela-Berghund*
- Fila Brasileiro
*- Kangal (known here under the Anatolian shepherd umbrella)*
- Karakatschan
- Karshund
- Kaukasischer Owtscharka
*- Komondor*
- Kraski Ovcar
*- Kuvasz*
- Liptak (Goralenhund)
*- Maremmaner Hirtenhund*
*- Mastiff*
- Mastin de los Pirineos
- Mastin Espanol
-* Mastino Napoletano*
- Mioritic
- Mittelasiatischer Owtscharka
*- Perro de Presa Canario*
- Perro de Presa Mallorquin
*- Pit-bull terrier**
- Polski Owczarek Podhalanski
- Pyrenäenberghund
- Raffeiro do Alentejo
*- Rhodesian Ridgeback*
- Römischer Kampfhund
*- Rottweiler*
- Sarplaninac
- Slovensky Cuvac
*- Staffordshire Bull-terrier**
- Sürdrussischer Owtscharka
*- Tibetanischer Mastiff*- Tornjak
- Tosa Inu

The breeds of dogs listed here are classified as generally or potentially dangerous under the regulations of one or more of Germany's states. Other breeds not listed might also be subject to regulations. Dog owners interested in bringing their dogs with them to Germany are advised to contact state authorities for more information.

*These breeds are prohibited under all circumstances

A link to this information here: Germany.info : Information Services: Consular Services: Customs Information


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Magik said:


> yes but only the large breeds have the capability of killing someone and are the only breeds which are bought for fighting etc


Not true a few years ago a dog reportedly a Jack Russel killed an infant in the UK. I have been googling it for ages trying to find it.

It was reported either on the Radio or TV news.

The most common victims of dog attack are children.

There are two main reasons. Many dogs are not used to and frightened or hurt by the child, and secondly their fast movements and high pitched voices often screaming bring out the predatory drives in dogs, who again may not associate a child as human.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Another reason is when it is a child involved because of the size of them the injury is greater, so is more likely to be reported and/or need medical treatment. As adults we are also more able to protect ourselves, except in a ferocious attack, which thankfully are very rare. As people who have worked with dogs over a number of years myself and my husband have recieved numerous dog bites, we have never had any medical treatment, so would not appear on any statistics, if my children had ever been bitten, which they weren't, I would have taken them straight to A & E.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

I wouldn't totally object to making my dog wear a muzzel while out walking in PUBLIC places because i know she is good but just because she is a big dog other people are sometimes scared and if it ment she was seen as less of a threat to anyone or made other people (mainly children) feel more secure in light of recent dog attacks i dont mind.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2008)

a jack russel may have killed an infant but lets face it fatal attacks from such breeds are rare and it would be impossible to regulate the ownership of all breeds. It makes sense to regulate the usual suspects - which might I add isn't because of the breed nature it's because of the type of owners they attract. They buy these animals for the wrong reasons! It wouldn't stop fatal dog attacks completely but it would reduce them and the one that happened recently wouldn't have been prevented.

I own a large american bulldog and would be happy to be approved for owning that type of dog... I think all responisble owners wouldn't have a problem.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2008)

i agree but i think just to be safe dogs like rottys ect ect should allso be muzzeled and not alloud to roam off the lead ,that should envoke fine/imprisonent or both and allso the dog taking off of them! harsh maybe but lets protect our kids/public with an a abuse it you lose it law!


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2008)

Thing is a large dog like a rottie does need to run. So if such restrictions were put in place I think pupose built dog parks should be built so dogs can be free but in a controlled environment where everyone who's there knows what to expect. This works in the US.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2008)

Magik said:


> Thing is a large dog like a rottie does need to run. So if such restrictions were put in place I think pupose built dog parks should be built so dogs can be free but in a controlled environment where everyone who's there knows what to expect. This works in the US.


I do like the rotty to look at but i gotta say magik that they scare the poo outa me ! I do boxing and am just about to go on a run and in a minute i will go past this house thats got one in the garden and i am telling you that thing wants to kill some body ! it gos crazy at anyman woman or chid that passes !


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2008)

garryd said:


> i agree but i think just to be safe dogs like rottys ect ect should allso be muzzeled and not alloud to roam off the lead ,that should envoke fine/imprisonent or both and allso the dog taking off of them! harsh maybe but lets protect our kids/public with an a abuse it you lose it law!


We already have laws in place for roaming dogs etc,but they are not enforced.The dog attacks the last few fatal ones involving Rotties & a Pitt have happened on private property so the current DDA did nothing to protect those children,as it doesn't legislate for it.

85% of dog attacks happen on private property,I must stress though fatal dog attacks are rare,far more children die in RTA's every year,we deal with the Drivers of the car,and punish them accordingly(not harshly enough in my book) so the same should be applied to dog owners.
The last 3 fatal dog attacks were due to negligence of the owner,charges of manslaughter were brought against one,which I & many others agreed with.


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## Esined (Nov 2, 2007)

Magik said:


> that's awful!! It amazes me that people in positions of power do not have the basic intelligence to realise it's all down to ownership and they continue to genralise an entire breed...


I also think it is down to breeders to socialise the dogs before they leave home. A responcable breeder checks pedigree compatability and rear mums and pups in their homes to ensure socialisation and be aware of pups personality to ensure they are placed in the right home, also if pup when placed in a home should be told to return pup if things do not work out.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2008)

garryd said:


> I do like the rotty to look at but i gotta say magik that they scare the poo outa me ! I do boxing and am just about to go on a run and in a minute i will go past this house thats got one in the garden and i am telling you that thing wants to kill some body ! it gos crazy at anyman woman or chid that passes !


Sounds like the Jack Russell's next door. 
But they are far more likely to bite than any of the Rotties I know.

The Labrador across the road acts the same way as you describe as he has nothing better to do.

Mind you mine give a good impression of guarding effectively when behind the gate, would lick you to death and vie for your kisses if they could get to you.

The fatal attacks that have occurred would not have been prevented by any muzzling and on leash restrictions, they have all occurred in their owners homes.

As another poster pointed out these tragedies are very rare, especially when you consider the population of the usual suspects which are?

At a guess Rotts?, probably at least a population of 65000 KC registered, GSD's 128000 KC registered (we all know there are probably as many not registered with the KC), Dobermans? 33000.

So you would seriously restrict the freedom of all these dogs and their owners.

They banned Pit bulls over 16 years ago and there are as many and as many biting people as there were in 1991.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

garryd - have a look at these

21 month Old - killed - Great Dane
8 month Old - killed - Doberman
18 day old - killed - Pit x Lab and GSD x Husky
6 week old - killed - POMERANIAN
2 weeks old - killed - Chow Chow
2 weeks old - killed - Husky

How anyone who owns a bull breed dog can be so breedist is absolutely beyond me. Why dont we just ban all dogs because EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM is capable of killing. The responsibility for any incident lies fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the dog owners. I have two beautiful Rotties and yes they are both capable of doing serious damage. Anyone who owns one of these dogs needs to do their homework and realise they are taking on a breed that is bold, confident, territorial and require training - dont blame the breed cos some people dont know how to look after it.
I walk my dogs on the moors daily - away from everyone - I choose to share my life with this magnificent breed - I didnt get them to please anyone else - I got them to please myself - and they do please me - I LOVE them to bits and it p***es me right off when people slate the breed as a whole.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

Where did you fidn those stats, as I ahd a eal job.

Agree with every word you wrote.

I Find Garry's stance strange as I have met far more aggresive and one downright human dangerous, examples of his breed than any Rott.

I am sure it is down to bad breeding and or ownership.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I just googled 'dog kills baby' - and they were only the replies of the first few pages!!
I'm not living with my head in the clouds - I know my breed is in serious trouble and if it comes down to it I will walk my dogs on a 2 metre lead and I will muzzle them(they are both castrated anyways) - but IMHO the cases in the press recently were all down to human error. The dogs in the pub were let in when someones mind wasnt on the ball, the latest incident happened when a young child thought it a good idea to stroke a guard dog - those poor families have paid the highest price possible and I am truly gutted for them - HOWEVER these terrible deaths didnt need to happen


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I think your language is appalling. This is a public forum where people can voice their opinions perhaps you havent got the hang of that - telling people to shut up does nothing for the debate does it.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

garryd said:


> *****!


Well what a disGusting ill mannered person you are!!!!!! You seem to have more aggression than ten Rottweilers put together. I have owned this breed for 30 years+ and believe there has been not one ounce of aggresion from any of them just ashame we can't say t5he same about you. I personally feel that YOU AND YOUR FOUL MOUTH ARE THE ONE WHO NEEDS BANNING


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

perhaps you might like to read the forum rules

Use of Language 
Light profanity is allowed. HOWEVER, excessive profanity and profanity directed at others in an insulting manner will not be tolerated, nor will obscene, vulgar, hateful, threatening or language violative of any laws.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

Jo P said:


> I think your language is appalling. This is a public forum where people can voice their opinions perhaps you havent got the hang of that - telling people to shut up does nothing for the debate does it.


i am sorry but lets have it fair the facts are my breed is not a man /kidd killer unlike the rotty wich have killed afair few kids in the past five years 
! facts .heres the links Dog kills boy, 4, in backyard 
Dog Rips Child From Mother Arms (Rottweiller Kills Girl)
BBC NEWS | England | West Yorkshire | Family dog kills one-year-old boy i could go on !


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

If you want to get into 'breed' mud slinging have a read of this - obviously all EBT's need banning, muzzling too - the maid was lucky she didnt end up like the corgi wasnt she!!!!!!!!!

Anne's bull terrier must see the shrink - Independent Online Edition > This Britain


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

I very much doubt the queens dogs are socialized and around a home enviroment and other dogs like our bullys.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

Very Polite Garry. Raw nerve eh. So how can you slag off other breeds just because they make you nervous, plenty of people feel that way about Bull Terriers (just wanted to point out I don't), or even any dog.

I am sure the breed are as likely to have been involved as any other breed especially a powerful one capable of crunching up hedgehogs.

Sadly most of the statistics are American (there your breed is not as prevalent as other bull breeds) and Australian, it seems breed stats for these incidents are not kept in the UK.

If you really need me to I am sure such statistics can be found.

Are you afraid of chows? They seem to have one of the worst percentage of the breed bite statistics of any breed in the USA.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

HERE YA GO GARRY - GET RID OF YOUR DOG MATE - ITS A KILLER

Baby is killed by pet terrier | Independent, The (London) | Find Articles at BNET.com


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

Jo P said:


> If you want to get into 'breed' mud slinging have a read of this - obviously all EBT's need banning, muzzling too - the maid was lucky she didnt end up like the corgi wasnt she!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Anne's bull terrier must see the shrink - Independent Online Edition > This Britain


look how many kidds the rotty has killed ! look how many familys have lost there kidds due to your child killing breed ! not bull terriers ! ROTWEILERS ! HERE AGAIN ARE THE LINKS FOR ALL TO SEE
Dog kills boy, 4, in backyard 
Dog Rips Child From Mother Arms (Rottweiller Kills Girl)
BBC NEWS | England | West Yorkshire | Family dog kills one-year-old boy i could go on !


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

To tell the truth i think the lot of you should finished this up right now.
This is just getting pathetic.

Your all obviously trying to prove a point and to tell the truth its gonna get more and more heated so why don't u all just leave the thread for abit and go look in another post?.

ps.. be4 i go 
A spokeswoman for the RSPCA described the event as a "tragedy" but added: "The English bull terrier is not intrinsically a dangerous dog. It is not named under the dangerous dogs act. What we do not want is knee-jerk legislation with serious flaws like the current act. We want to look at what happened and see what lessons can be learned 

And i think that should count for all dogs .


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

Her you go a site that wants breeds restricted Dangerous dogs in the UK

has various attacks including one by a Stafford and one by an English bull terrier in a playground.

Playground attack by an English Bull Terrier

The attack took place at Maerdy infants school on the 22nd of June 2000, where an English bull terrier attacked children in a south Wales school playground - the English Bull Terrier was later put down.

A six-year-old girl is recovering in hospital after she and three other children were attacked by the dog at lunchtime on Wednesday at Maerdy school.

Mike Power below, who needed 13 stitches as a result of being bitten by the English Bull Terrier:


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

HERE YA GO GARRY - SNAP!!!!!!!!!

Baby is killed by pet terrier | Independent, The (London) | Find Articles at BNET.com

and I shall say no more on the subject


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

It is NOT about Breed.

Deed NOT Breed.

So Garry on your assumptions your breed bit a child, has attacked dogs,are all Bull Terriers the same,with your reasoning it appears so.Lets add them to the DDA then,Would this solve the problem?
Of course not.

Far more children die in car accidents,I wonder what colour car has the most fatalities,should we ban that colour car,sound stupid - get the gist of it.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> To tell the truth i think the lot of you should finished this up right now.
> This is just getting pathetic.
> 
> Your all obviously trying to prove a point and to tell the truth its gonna get more and more heated so why don't u all just leave the thread for abit and go look in another post?.
> ...


Just so if dog lovers and owners can't understand that it isn't breed, but bad breeding and irresponsible ignorant ownership that leads to tragedies, then what chance have any of our breed got against the anti dog lobby, who would prefer to see dogs extinct, or reduced to lapdogs only.

they already did that with the fear tactics and exaggerations over toxacara which we are still living through.

Try and rent a hall or field for training.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2008)

JUST HEAR ME OUT! We are not talking about one isolated incident are we !We are talking about a patten from one breed ! ONE WOULD SUSPECT YOU COULD FIND AT LEAST ONE FATALETY IN EVERY BREED ! BUT LETS HAVE IT FAIR WE ARE NOT TALKING ONE UNFORTUNATE INCIDENT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT LOTS OF THEM AND JUST FROM ONE BREED! 
I AM SORRY IF I HAVE COME ACROSS LIKE A RICHARD BUT ONE INCIDENT IS DIFFERENT THEN TEN ! DONT YOU THINK!


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