# British shorthair breeders info needed



## Jash192 (Nov 15, 2020)

Hi All
Looking for some information from anyone who breeds BSH cats.
Buying a male shortly and debating buying a female too (not related) Purely for company but we’re debating potentially letting them mate and was wondering what costs we need to take into consideration from start to finish?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

@Jash192: There is a section on ''cat breeding'' where your post might get some replies.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Neuter, or better yet the breeder will have them done prior to adoption, and keep them as the pets they are intended for.

Breeding is not an after thought, it takes years of dedication, learning, mentoring.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

This is not scaremongering but make sure you have £4000 in a savings account you can access at short notice. 

An out of hours c-section which whilst rare does happen will easily be around £3k. I paid 18 months ago for a planned c-section around £1k, a breeder friends was just under £3k. One of the kittens from the c-section litter ended up with a bowel obstruction and ended up needing a late night treatment. I am lucky as one of my vet and vet nurse friends treated him so I didn’t have to pay the emergency vets huge premium but it was still an expensive bill.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> This is not scaremongering but make sure you have £4000 in a savings account you can access at short notice.
> 
> An out of hours c-section which whilst rare does happen will easily be around £3k. I paid 18 months ago for a planned c-section around £1k, a breeder friends was just under £3k. One of the kittens from the c-section litter ended up with a bowel obstruction and ended up needing a late night treatment. I am lucky as one of my vet and vet nurse friends treated him so I didn't have to pay the emergency vets huge premium but it was still an expensive bill.


Defo not scare mongering.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

There's a sticky thread at the top of the cat breeding page - The cost of breeding. It was written a few years ago so any figures mentioned will be out of date but breeding isn't just about the financial cost. It's not about just putting a male and female together either.
If you are really interested in breeding talk to the breeder you are buying a kitten from - be honest with them. Your cats must be on the active register and only their breeder can do that. 
Breeding is an emotional committment as well as a financial one. Research, research and do more research into all the aspects. In normal times I would suggest going to shows and talking to different breeders, showing a cat of your own too. Sadly this isn't possible at the moment but you could try emailing or calling. Be clear in your reasons for wanting to breed and don't be surprised or offended if you cannot get an active registered kitten. Please don't just buy a male and female, it's going to cost me x,y and z and think that's all there is to it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I started on a document about wanting to breed, I didn't finish, but this is what I wrote. In my view you need to be able to say YES to the top 5, and preferably to all of them. I'm sure this isn't an exhaustive list, and I've swithered about changing £3k upwards.

So you want to breed cats. Great, but before you jump in there are some very important questions to ask yourself. Be as honest as you can with your answers as being economical with the truth is not only cheating yourself, it's cheating any cats you might get:

What breed? If you are having to choose a breed, take a step back, visit some shows, look around and find the breed that captures your heart.
Will a very large (£3k or more) vet bill be unmanageable?
Can I cope emotionally if I lose kittens, or even a breeding queen?
Can I bear seeing any kittens go to new homes?
Am I prepared to offer ongoing support to my kitten owners?
Have I shown 'my' breed?
Am I prepared to pay the price for a good quality girl registered active? This can be well over£1,000 for some breeds.
Can I find one from a breeder prepared to support and help me?
Do I know what health tests are advised for my breed? Don't confuse health checks at the vets with health tests, most of which are DNA tests. Some breeds should also be scanned to check for HCM.
Is my home suitable? A queen with kittens needs peace & quiet, and homes where doors are forever being accidentally left open are inviting trouble. This is even more the case if you have an entire male living indoors as well.
Do I have any previous experience with queens & kittens?


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## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

If you’re buying a male - is he registered? Most reputable breeders won’t sell you a kitten/cat that is not neutered. and I can tell you as a relatively new breeder you’ll have more luck winning the lotto then obtaining a pure bred cat WITH registered paperwork that is entire (not neutered).

I loathe to advise you this but breeding isn’t fun. Hearing a female cat yowling in heat is worse than nails being dragged down a blackboard! When a female cat goes on heat it’s distressing. Your neighbours will hear her screaming at all crazy hours, you won’t get a wink of sleep. Boys pee and spray EVERYWHERE and it stinks so if you don’t mind your furniture and home stinking then you’re half way there.

Then when your cat has kittens - yes it’s beautiful but let’s be honest here: it’s gross too. There’s blood and weird revolting oozy stuff everywhere. Did you know that the mother cat not only eats the babies placenta she also eats the kittens poo?! Not very cute anymore, is it? You have to change her bedding bc of all the blood and gunk.

if you go ahead with it good luck - research lots of info on google and find a breeder that will support and mentor you.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Fendi said:


> If you're buying a male - is he registered? Most reputable breeders won't sell you a kitten/cat that is not neutered. and I can tell you as a relatively new breeder you'll have more luck winning the lotto then obtaining a pure bred cat WITH registered paperwork that is entire (not neutered).
> <snip>


Sadly in the UK many breeders don't neuter kittens before they leave, sometimes because they can't find a vet who will do it for them. Hopefully it's different in NZ. However the chances of getting a registered active kitten is minimal.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Fendi said:


> Most reputable breeders won't sell you a kitten/cat that is not neutered


Reputable being the key word, in the UK it's extremely easy to find Brits sold to just anyone for breeding on free ad sites.
Not EN also makes it easy for byb's to cycle along selling breeding cats.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Reputable being the key word, in the UK it's extremely easy to find Brits sold to just anyone for breeding on free ad sites.
> Not EN also makes it easy for byb's to cycle along selling breeding cats.


That's not fair to the UK breeders who want to en & can't find a vet who will do it, and I'm sure it's not the only country in the world with breeders who only care that the buyer has the money


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> That's not fair to the UK breeders who want to en & can't find a vet who will do it, and I'm sure it's not the only country in the world with breeders who only care that the buyer has the money


I didn't say it was the only country, BSH are extremely popular in the UK and easy to find, this is a UK based forum as we are so often reminded. 
The facts are ESN is the only surefire way to ensure a kitten is never bred from.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> I didn't say it was the only country, BSH are extremely popular in the UK and easy to find, this is a UK based forum as we are so often reminded.
> The facts are ESN is the only surefire way to ensure a kitten is never bred from.


Agree 100% about ESN


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## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Sadly in the UK many breeders don't neuter kittens before they leave, sometimes because they can't find a vet who will do it for them. Hopefully it's different in NZ. However the chances of getting a registered active kitten is minimal.


Wow that's amazing. In NZ and Australia if you sell a pure breed kitten that's no desexed you risk the chance of being struck off registered cat organisations. They're really strict. I know this is a UK site but I would have thought the UK would be more regimental than NZ a& OZ.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Fendi said:


> Wow that's amazing. In NZ and Australia if you sell a pure breed kitten that's no desexed you risk the chance of being struck off registered cat organisations. They're really strict. I know this is a UK site but I would have thought the UK would be more regimental than NZ a& OZ.


Is that actually a rule of the NZ registry / registries?

No, it's not stricter here, and there are now a great many ersatz 'pedigree' breeders so changing the GCCF rules wouldn't make much difference. It affects some breeds more than others - BSH, MCO, RAG, and to a degree SIA. Also, in the case of the BSH, it's the British landrace cat... Years ago I saw a lovely cat very much like a BSH who was a domestic.


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## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

Here's a copy of our codesc. 
*Sale of cats or kittens*

_I will transfer all kittens or cats not intended for breeding within two weeks of pick up (if already desexed) or within two weeks of receiving proof of desexing (if sold with a desexing contract).

I will ensure that all kittens not intended for breeding are desexed, either by desexing prior to leaving my home, or by selling with a desexing contract and following up to ensure this is complied with_.

maybe we're a tad stricter because of our agricultural farming and wildlife?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Fendi said:


> Here's a copy of our codesc.
> *Sale of cats or kittens*
> 
> _I will transfer all kittens or cats not intended for breeding within two weeks of pick up (if already desexed) or within two weeks of receiving proof of desexing (if sold with a desexing contract).
> ...


I have no idea why you are stricter, but quite a few of the cats used by BYBs here were sold with a desexing / neutering contract which wasn't kept to. BYBs don't care if they don't have papers for their cats, or if they aren't in their names. Does your desexing have any force in law where you are? Here contracts are pretty much unenforceable whatever one woman says about hers, so ESN is the only way to protect one's kittens.


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## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

Orientalslave; I'm not sure by laws however you can be struck off registered bodies.* IF* that happens then it's very hard to sell kittens as pedigrees (as you don't have papers to support your claim of pedigree) and consequently without the relevant papers you cant sell them for $$$.

I think Oz is stricter than us New Zealanders.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Fendi said:


> Orientalslave; I'm not sure by laws however you can be struck off registered bodies.* IF* that happens then it's very hard to sell kittens as pedigrees (as you don't have papers to support your claim of pedigree) and consequently without the relevant papers you cant sell them for $$$.
> 
> I think Oz is stricter than us New Zealanders.


Shockingly people here seem, at the moment, to pay almost as much for ersatz pedigrees as for the real thing, and bubs seem to have no problems selling their unregistered and unregisterable kittens as the real deal goes for.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Fendi said:


> I think Oz is stricter than us New Zealanders.


Yes, we have desexing laws (among others)


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## Jash192 (Nov 15, 2020)

Hey guys,
Thanks for the replies, sorry for the delayed response!
So we have purchased a active gccf male and female from different breeders.
We are still unsure if we’re going to breed or not and we are doing our upmost to gather as much knowledge as possible before we come to decision.
So the kittens have been bought as pets and we bought two so they’ve got company but we are also interested in breeding.
My question is how you keep a queen and stud together year around in the same house. Thanks all


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Jash192 said:


> <snip>
> My question is how you keep a queen and stud together year around in the same house. Thanks all


I don't. My stud has a insulated heated stud house in my back garden with an outside run and during the day access to my enclosed garden. My stud sprays, so keeping him in the house isn't an option - it was no fun having to put clingfilm over electric sockets and start each morning mopping up.


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## Jash192 (Nov 15, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> I don't. My stud has a insulated heated stud house in my back garden with an outside run and during the day access to my enclosed garden. My stud sprays, so keeping him in the house isn't an option - it was no fun having to put clingfilm over electric sockets and start each morning mopping up.


Are they pretty much guaranteed to spray then? What about stud pants etc?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Jash192 said:


> Are they pretty much guaranteed to spray then? What about stud pants etc?


Most studs spray, most stud spray smells vile, stud pants are not a 24-hour thing. It's OK for a few hours, but also some boys are very good at wriggling out of them. You can't rely on them for contraception either.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

While none of my boys have sprayed, I would never keep them with girls loose in the house 'for company', that is unrealistic and irresponsible.

As above stud pants are not for 24 hour use, nor contraception. They are useful on spraying boys to get some short inside time.

The boys have each other and neuters for company, along with us of course. Keeping a stud is not for a novice, hormonal boys are often not easy to keep, some can be unpredictable in behaviour, along with the spraying, yowling, needing enough girls to be happy (more than 1 female).


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Jash192 said:


> Hey guys,
> Thanks for the replies, sorry for the delayed response!
> So we have purchased a active gccf male and female from different breeders.
> We are still unsure if we're going to breed or not and we are doing our upmost to gather as much knowledge as possible before we come to decision.
> ...


I'm somewhat gobsmacked at a breeder selling an active registered male to a novice.


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## Jash192 (Nov 15, 2020)

Once again thanks for all of the advice.
We haven’t got either cats yet so it’s still just a decision we’re considering But it looks like if we do decide to breed then a stud house would have to be the case. Although we want the cats to live in the house therefore would probably still get both but get a neutered boy and just pay for the queen to visit a stud if we decide to breed her.


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## Jash192 (Nov 15, 2020)

How old are the males when they start spraying and mating with a female if in their presence?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

The breeders you are buying off, who ideally you've built a great friendship with over time, should be mentoring you.
Things don't end at the purchase of a kitten, it's on the beginning.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Jash192 said:


> How old are the males when they start spraying and mating with a female if in their presence?


It's highly individual but from 6 months onwards is possible.



> pay for the queen to visit a stud if we decide to breed her.


This is a far, far better idea for a complete novice. Come to that, the only reason I keep a stud is I live several hundred miles from a suitable one.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I bred for years before I kept a boy. You can't even ask the breeder what age their boys start to spray and/or mate because it varies so much. I had a boy who was frightened of girls until he was over a year old but his son was all for it by nine months. I also did not keep a boy until I knew I had a line that was not likely to spray but stud wee smells vile wherever it is, even in a tray. Many of the kittens I bred initially were smelly and showing signs of maturity by five months even in their pet homes. I really would not advise a novice to have a boy except as a neutered pet.


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## Fendi (Nov 14, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> I'm somewhat gobsmacked at a breeder selling an active registered male to a novice.


I'm somewhat peeved!! I had to jump thru hoops for a few years before I was sold an entire girl

and I agree with others: keeping a boy is a nightmare. Girls on heat isn't easy or fun either. It's horrible. But hey, good luck. You really should try to get a breeder help mentor you.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Fendi said:


> I'm somewhat peeved!! I had to jump thru hoops for a few years before I was sold an entire girl


You will be all the better for it. I wouldn't trade my learning years before breeding for anything


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Fendi said:


> I'm somewhat peeved!! I had to jump thru hoops for a few years before I was sold an entire girl
> 
> and I agree with others: keeping a boy is a nightmare. Girls on heat isn't easy or fun either. It's horrible. But hey, good luck. You really should try to get a breeder help mentor you.


There are plenty of breeders where where you would have to jump through hoops to get an active-registered kitten, but sadly some just see £££ for them. Most of them won't be seen for dust once the kitten & money are exchanged.

And yes, calling girls can be very noisy and some of them spray & urinate as much as boys do.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Oh yes Miss Piddle pants, every corner would be peed in. One girl would pee on husband when she was in screaming call, he loved that.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Thankfully all our girls are very well behaved when it comes to toileting when they are calling lol but they do all have a habit of synchronisation when it comes to calling. 4 girls in the house all screaming at the same time can be deafening at times. Our boy has his own heated stud house. He doesnt spray but if you disturb a pissbomb in his litter tray and break it when scooping out . Hell it stinks and the smell lingers up your nose. Now ontop of the screaming girls and smelly boys you also need to think about not only the cost of rearing and vaccinations of a litter but the cost to feed them alm for 13 weeks and also all the cost for cat litter then on top of that there are heating Bill's and other vets Bill's that will come up. Breeding isnt cheap and can go tits up big time.


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