# Could play fighting encourage agression towards dogs?



## SecondInCommand (Jun 16, 2009)

Hi everyone,
Im looking for advice on conditioning a staffy cross puppy not to be aggressive and bite other dogs.
I am wondering if the current situation is going to lead to a problem and Id like to hear what others think.
We live in an apartment (my partner, me and Rollo the pup) with a shared yard going around the building. Rollo (12 weeks today) and a 7 month old maltese-shitzu (Harris  our neighbours dog) share the yard when we let them outside (they stay inside separate apartments when no one is home and for sleeping).
Rollo and Harris have a grand old time play fighting continuously, but Rollo (at 12 weeks!) is already pretty much the dominant one and is showing occasional signs of aggression (eg biting until Harris yelps, and a few occasions of grab and shake tactics).
Harris is fluffy, not tiny, a lot of energy and under exercised, so completely hyperactive all the time. Hes submissive by nature (rolls on back, licks all dogs chins etc), but cant get enough of the play fighting. I dont think he really bites  but play bites Rollo to the point of soaking him in drool. He bites Rollo to get him to play  eg pulls his ears, bites his legs, bites his scruff. He is still bigger so he stands over rollo often and moves his head in a shake  but I think hes pretty much just tickling.
When Rollo bites him (eg bites and pulls his tail) he loves it and doesnt snap. If he gets hurt he will yelp but come back for more less than a second later.
Unfortunately, Rollos agression to Harris seems worst when he is bored or tired or hungry or too lazy to compete for a toy  not in reaction to Harriss rough play.
SURELY THIS SITUATION COULD ENCOURAGE ROLLO TO BE AN AGRESSIVE DOG AND SHOULD BE MAGAGED???
What should I do?
Further info:
Rollo is my first dog. Puppy kindy started last week and goes for three more one hour sessions this month. I started taining when I got him at almost 8 weeks old, he is 75% Obedient on first command and improving (sit, stay, drop, rollover, come). He responds to growling NO!. As a correction I sometimes yank his collar or grab his scruff, if he doesnt respond to NO. He generally doesnt bite us (humans)(although did in first week), will now mouth occasionally but always gets told NO and stops. He's confined to a sunroom for 3 days per week ~6 hours, part of this time he cries and howls (not used to it yet). He sleeps in a closed crate in our bedroom. We eat first and he takes himself away to sulk. Doesnt demand his food. Eats on command (ie. waits for the command). Has displayed no sign of aggression over food. Drinks from his water bowl at the same time as Harris. They eat chicken necks side by side, sometimes cuddle and lie together, often lick each other. I walk them together  although only half the time because training Rollo is more difficult with Harris (poorly trained) in the way.
He is very confident (sort of aloof) but friendly and calm. Has met 40 dogs and plays well. Holds back if theyre more interested in a ball than him and is excellent at running and playing with most  when they want to play. He does not try to dominate (eg paws on back)much more than other dogs, although he is much younger.
Two incidents of signs of aggression (apart from with Harris):
1st a 5 month puppy (called Rowdy!)bowled him off his feet over and over again and jumped on him  Rollo escaped with his tail between his legs and at the first opportunity ran up to Rowdy showing his teeth and snapping and biting (dont know if Rowdy even noticed!).
2nd A tiny white fluffy puppy (maybe the same kind as Harris but a new baby) was running between its owners. Rollo ran with it and stood over it repeatedly even though it didnt want to play. I removed him.
What have I tried?
I have given them toys to compete over instead of biting, which works temporarily.
Yesterday I started yelling NO more consistently when things got crazy and used a squirt bottle in Rollos face.
Supervising them every second to correct at the point when playful play fighting becomes aggressive play fighting is not that practical  but I could restrict their playing if thats important.
I praise them when they are being gentle with each other. I make them sit together for a treat.
Rollo has tug toys that we use to play with him and shaking bell toys that are fun if you lock your jaws on them and shake your head from side to side (eeek). Should I get rid of these?
My partner razzed him up a few times (rough play) but has stopped now because it made him psycho.
Any other ideas?
Many thanks!!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi. Welcome to the forum. It is great to see responsible owners, especially with breeds like yours.

Having only had adult rescue dogs, I am not familar with puppys. However, what I get from your post, it was rather long lol! is that the other dog is very hyper and bagers your dog to play and your dog gets a bit rough. Is that the gist of it?

In my opinion, and again hopfully somebody with more experience with puppys can give better advice, is it is good for them to play. They learn boundries, bite inhabition and burn off energy. 

I would just say that you should intervene when it gets too rough. The shaking is not good and should be discouraged, but other than that, I don;t see a problem.

I have a staffi x and he plays very rough with my sister's bulldog. The noises they make can be quite frightening. However, they are both adult dogs and I let them get on with it.

Sorry it has not been much help. 
Best of luck x


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Personally I try to limit the amount of time my dogs play with other dogs. All I want them to be is sociable with other dogs and know their doggy manners. As for play - predominantly I want them to play with ME.

I certainly wouldn't be encouraging prolonged sessions, especially with a smaller dog who may get hurt. My dog, who is very well socialised and pretty much ignores other dogs in favour of me, is a Collie X, and with small, fast moving dogs she can become too highly aroused for my liking and a bit "chasey" and I tend to stop such sessions before they get going.

IMO, yelling and squirting water at him is likely to excite him even more.

Tug toys are fine, and a great way for dogs to expend energy and learn that YOU provide more fun than other dogs. As long as you teach them that the game ends when YOU say so, they are great fun and a valuable motivator for training/teaching.

Giving them toys to "compete" over is, IMO, a bad idea and asking for trouble.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Very much agree with Colliepoodle's first paragraph, Rollo should be focused on you more than anything, and his recall might be good now, but give him time, they all go through phases of pushing those training boundaries, in fact mine have one long phase 

I don't have Staffies, I have Labs, but have had them from pups and they can be quite mouthy. 

One thing I don't subscribe to is the training method of sticking a toy in their mouth to stop them biting, imo this is rewarding your dog for something it shouldn't be doing. Nor do I leave the room when they get too hyperactive, if the 'No' didn't work, they got crated or put in a separate room to calm down, then the door was opened and they were allowed to join back in, without any interaction at all (verbal or physical) at first to keep it all calm and not make an issue out of the episode.

I'd be tempted to keep play (particularly with smaller more submissive dogs) to a minimum if Rollo is dominating, hopefully at your puppy classes you'll be taught how to read situations and what to do. At the puppy classes I took mine to, any dominant behaviour was stopped.

Six hours is quite a long time to leave a pup, its a shame you can't get someone to pop in and sit with him/let him out in the middle of that time, four hours is usually the maximum time I'd leave a dog.

You're right (I think) to stop the rough play between humans and Rollo, a pup/dog can't be expected to know when its appropriate to play like that, and when it isn't. It's the same as giving dogs toys to chew on, they don't know the difference between that and a chair leg, so I never encouraged chewing at all with toys, they didn't get any left out for them, just kong toys which they associate with food.

Nor do I subscribe to the eating first rule, in fact the only rule I subscribe to is the 'it's not a democracy' one, ie they are just expected to do as they're told, and enjoy being dogs.

I'll leave it to other Staffie owners to advise about tuggy toys, mine don't play tuggy as a rule (Gundogs aren't meant to), although unofficially they still do play this occasionally :blushing:


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

personally i think playfighting is perfectly fine and it doesnt lead to agression. sounds to me like your pup is just learning how hard he can bite when playing, thats why the other dog yelps and then comes back again to play, the other dog knows yours is just a pup playing. went through this with my two and they enjoy playfighting with each other. its perfectly natural, doesnt sound like you have a problem to me. 

the aggression with the other two dogs sound normal to me too. in the first case the other dog had no manners and must of really upset rollo and in the second case rollo was being a bit rude and upseting the other dog. this is perfectly natural behaviour at this age. he hasnt uite got all his doggy mannors yet and it will be a while before he does, hes still learning. you sund like your doing a good job socialising him with other dogs and his classes so just carry on with what your doing and he should grow up into a well mannerd dog


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi, I have a staffy cross and I'm trying to get him and my other dog to stop playfighting, as it's all they seem to do, especially with brother pup next door!
My pair are always getting scabs from bitemarks, and filthy from rolling about on the floor.

I don;t like to encourage it, as if the dog is alowed to do it at home, he may try it with a dog in the park or something, and get badly hurt!
My pup is getting better but when brother next door comes over I have to stand next to them with a spray bottle and squirt whenever they start biting and say ''no biting''.

I prefer my dogs to socialise calmly, with eachother and with other dogs, don't like them being rough and tumble.. when we had the pups mum it caused a few arguments in the park as she just wanted to playfight all the time, when the other dogs didn't and one guy threatened to kick her.

xx


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Staffie types can play quite rough and be intimidating to other breeds. It sounds like puppies learning their manners from what you describe though. Id work on a good recall and make sure he has some command to stop playing when you decide he has to stop.
As long as he backs off if the other dog yelps and only growls or barks to defend himself (without pursuing the other dog) then it sounds like he is becoming a polite freindly boy. Also make sure he doesnt develop the habit of dominating other dogs when he's older. My chihuahua gets fairly irritated when staffs stomp on top of him after he's already submitted. They usually get a nip for their trouble..


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## SecondInCommand (Jun 16, 2009)

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for such useful tips  I think you are right and Im relieved. Rollo seems to be learning to be more gentle  he is fake biting Harris which
is funny and sweet, and your tips for managing how rough it gets are working.

Some this puppy stuff is so counter intuitive: let them bite each other so they learn not to bite, deprive
them of status so theyre happier, etc!

My strategy now:

Teaching them to stop when I say enough (not yelling NO), by rewarding them if they separate and settle down.

I will quarantine them if they are naughty.

Plus Ill only let them play together for a certain fraction of the day.

Every second walk I take Harris along, so they get used to
more than one mode of fun together, but to make sure Rollo is still bonded to his humans more than Harris and that we get lots of training in.

Truthfully though, I really want Rollo to have lots of fun
with other dogs (including Harris)  what are the consequences if he finds them more fun than his humans?

Will he be harder to control, harder to train or are you just saying its a lazy way to stimulate him and threatens our pack hierarchy?

Cheers


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

some dogs will just enjoy playing with other dogs more then people. theres not usually any problem with this as long as they are still loved and cared for by people. only if the dog is only with other dogs and gets no affection from people at all might a problem develop. i think what you are doing sounds good. just keep it up and you should do fine.


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