# Kick cruelty out of crufts



## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

This link was posted on another thread,so I thought I would post it in dog chat.

What a bunch of morons,
Kick Cruelty Out of Crufts 8/03/2009 : Veggies new Animal Rights Calendar


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks foe the warning, I'll let our breed club know they are showing on sunday.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

There's another group, Uncaged, who'll be there every day. Their main issue is Iams though.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

Looks like all the idiots are going to be out in force then 

I had also heard rumors,whether or not they are true is anybodies guess,that people working for JH will be there.Now we know how she can cleverly edit and twist peoples comments don't we.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I won't be speaking to anyone or letting anyone near my dog. In fact the benching areas should solely be for exhibitors IMO.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

They remind me of football hooligans = they are out purely for a fight!
Get prepared everyone - remember your rights, you are able to make a citizens arrest if these morons are breaking the law!

DT

Not actually fully certain of this as this sort of incident would maybe be dealt with by the NEC security!!!! BUT - if it were my dog that were targeted I would certainly be looking at some action against the offender!


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

You will all now realise what the people in country sports have had to endure for years now.
None of us would be against people with true concerns, as you also shouldn't, with those, it is best to chat and try and educate, the more defensive you are the worse things will get.
Sensible friendly interaction is the best way forward, unless of course it is with the rent a mob, in which case you should just ignore them


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

As I have already posted if they come near my dog they will leave with an injury. cannot be bothered with these type of people they need to go get a life. I am taking my son with me this year and he will also keep an eye on the benching


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

I think these people are going Rona with causing havoc in mind! I doubt very much that reasoning with such mindless morons would have the desired effect, they have probably been planning their onslaught for months now and are planning maximum disheavel
DT


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

They want to provoke a reaction and will doubtless be filming the proceedings to use and sell the footage. There is a good thread on champdogs about it.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

The problem is, if you put everyone in the same category, that has concerns, then you may alienate some that should not be lumped together with these morons


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

If it were a peaceful protest whereby they all stood at the IAMS stand with placards educating the public as to why NOT to use the IAMS brand Rona I would have not problem!

But that is not what this mob will have in mind! Many will be travelling down in larger groups on buses etc and will be baying for trouble! I repeat - nothing less then football hooligans.
DT


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Whether the majority are peaceful or not, extremists can simply tag along on the transport provided or may simply be there anyway. Those actively protesting against crufts concern me more than the iams ones and all are meant to be a the public entrance, not the exhibitors entrance.


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

rona said:


> The problem is, if you put everyone in the same category, that has concerns, then you may alienate some that should not be lumped together with these morons


I agree. I understand their concerns and along with many who care about animals and their welfare believe something needs to be done to stop things like animal testing, bad breeding, puppy farming and the numerous other ways we manage to be cruel to animals. They obviously feel the way they can do their bit is to draw attention to this particular aspect by demonstration. That is their right. I, on the other hand, write letters, sign petitions, donate money and food when I can, save small creatures etc. I see that as helping out in my own way.

Everyone is allowed their opinion and as they are an animal welfare group, they have stated that NO animals will be hurt or scared or disturbed during their demonstration. So while it is your right to take part in Crufts, it is also their right to demonstrate.

It is only a shame that these things often do get taken over by the trouble makers and detract from their original purpose.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Guinevere13 said:


> I agree. I understand their concerns and along with many who care about animals and their welfare believe something needs to be done to stop things like animal testing, bad breeding, puppy farming and the numerous other ways we manage to be cruel to animals. They obviously feel the way they can do their bit is to draw attention to this particular aspect by demonstration. That is their right. I, on the other hand, write letters, sign petitions, donate money and food when I can, save small creatures etc. I see that as helping out in my own way.
> 
> Everyone is allowed their opinion and as they are an animal welfare group, they have stated that NO animals will be hurt or scared or disturbed during their demonstration. So while it is your right to take part in Crufts, it is also their right to demonstrate.
> 
> It is only a shame that these things often do get taken over by the trouble makers and detract from their original purpose.


Well said.

I am quite frankly appalled that the kennel club do not themselves make a stand against a company that experiment on the very animals that they feed, and in the most horrific way! I honestly do not feel that they do themselves any favours by their association with Iam's.

Like Guinevere, I do what I can to highlight these issues through petitions, letters, my blog and now twitter, but I would NEVER want to be associated with groups who act like hooligans. They only give further ammunition to the very people that they are lobbying against


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## King dog (Feb 12, 2009)

oh thanks for the warning:yikes:


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

have posts beeen deleted from this thread?


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

DoubleTrouble said:


> have posts beeen deleted from this thread?


Glad mine are still there DT


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## sharon783 (Mar 3, 2009)

Hi There,
Im going to crufts on Thursday with my mum but weve just heard today about the protesters that are meant to be there. Does anyone have any more information? Weve heard alot of bad things and wondering if its safe to go or not now. Please someone reply as soon as possible, Thank you.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

sharon783 said:


> Hi There,
> Im going to crufts on Thursday with my mum but weve just heard today about the protesters that are meant to be there. Does anyone have any more information? Weve heard alot of bad things and wondering if its safe to go or not now. Please someone reply as soon as possible, Thank you.


Are you showing a dog or going as public? I'm going on Thursday too with my college class 

Don't worry, no harm should come to you. Nobody can promise anything, but it's highly unlikely that you will be hurt 

if I was you, i'd definately still go - don't let a few potential trouble makers spoil a wonderful experience for you! :thumbup:


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## sharon783 (Mar 3, 2009)

Thanks for your reply, My mum is showing. Not necessarily harm to us we are worried about, more the dog and upsetting him. What have you heard about it? Its all very strange.
Are you looking forward to going?


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

They may be organising a harmless protest... but was there not a thread warning people about a group going to crufts who were going to go round and let dogs loose? 
I don't call that peacefull. That is just asking for trouble, the dogs would get lost, stressed, fight, injured..

If I was showing a dog at crufts he would not be left alone at all.. And yeah, if someone wanted to ask me questions I would answer them politely, but the instant someone made a wrong move- they would know about it! 

x


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## sharon783 (Mar 3, 2009)

Hey, Yeah thats what we heard too that they are going to let them loose and also try and scratch the cars outside with knives wrapped up in something too. Also they are going to try and close off the road from the motorway? Thanks for replying guys.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

sharon783 said:


> Thanks for your reply, My mum is showing. Not necessarily harm to us we are worried about, more the dog and upsetting him. What have you heard about it? Its all very strange.
> Are you looking forward to going?


ooh what breed are you showing?

i've heard the one about people going around and letting dogs out of cages, and egging/flouring the exhibitors, as well as the peaceful protests. A friend of mine who shows Irish Setters also told me some of these 'activists'  were planning on poisoning people's dogs, but it could all just be scaremongering - you never know how true to their word these people are. Everyone is on alert this year and people in your breed will look out for each other in the stalls while you are away, but i'd definately be on higher alert this year - try not to leave your dog if you don't need to. But as I say, the exhibitors around you will all be looking out for each other and doing shifts at watching, im sure 

I can't wait to go! It'll be my third one this time, and I never ever get any less excited! I like Crufts more than Christmas


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> We've heard alot of bad things and wondering if its safe to go or not now.To tell the truth no one really knows.


This year at Crufts it is completely different from other years.
The protests may end up to be a damp squib, but it may escalate into something very serious.

It is a focus for all sorts of animal rights/welfare groups to join in on, so I would think there will be a lot of protestors.
Whether it ends in violence really depends on how it is managed by the police and the security at the NEC and the mood of the protestors.

I would think you are unlikely to see anything. Hopefully it will all be kept completely separate from the dogs and the showing and judging areas.
It will not be in the protestor's best interests to be seen frightening the very animals they want to "protect", I wouldn't have thought.

I think the scare stories are probably to try and dissuade people from turning up with their dogs at all.


> If I was showing a dog at crufts he would not be left alone at all..


 An excellent idea.


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Animal rights activists are nothing like football holigans, that is a seriously unfair remark.
And if you stopped listening to rumors and actually read what that link had to say, you'll know that - 

Q. Won't the demo be frightening to the dogs

A. Dont be silly.

-The demo will be outside Crufts

-The demo starts after dogs have arrived into Crufts

-The demo is organised with West Midlands Police

I have no problem with crufts but as an animal rights activist myself, i think some of you are being needlessly unfair


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> Animal rights activists are nothing like football holigans, that is a seriously unfair remark.
> And if you stopped listening to rumors and actually read what that link had to say, you'll know that -
> 
> Q. Won't the demo be frightening to the dogs
> ...


You must be in a different organization to the ones that I have seen then.
They have definitely been rent a mob


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## sharon783 (Mar 3, 2009)

The bread my mum is showing is a Beagle. Ive never been before so really looking forward to it.
I hope nothing will come of it, hopefully the rumours are just to try and get people not to turn up. 
Fingers crossed things will be fine though.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I understand what you're saying Chris, most activists like yourself like to make their point peacefully, but as with most things, there are always a few idiots there to spoil it, and it often spoils it for everyone, and then everyone is tarred with the same brush 

There will probably be mostly peaceful protests like the one organised on that website, but there is also a real threat of people who do not have such peaceful intentions turning up and causing trouble, and I think they are what everyone is most worried about.

I don't have a problem with the peaceful protestors, they have every right to voice their opinions, but when those few turn up to cause trouble, it just ruins it for everyone


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Portia Elizabeth said:


> I understand what you're saying Chris, most activists like yourself like to make their point peacefully, but as with most things, there are always a few idiots there to spoil it, and it often spoils it for everyone, and then everyone is tarred with the same brush
> 
> There will probably be mostly peaceful protests like the one organised on that website, but there is also a real threat of people who do not have such peaceful intentions turning up and causing trouble, and I think they are what everyone is most worried about.
> 
> I don't have a problem with the peaceful protestors, they have every right to voice their opinions, but when those few turn up to cause trouble, it just ruins it for everyone


I do agree with you, there are people out there who want to spoil it for everyone which is pretty pathetic . I'm a peaceful demonstrator. I don't believe in using force to get word across.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Well as a peacefull demonstrator then that is fine.
But you are not going to be the ONLY demonstrator there.. therefore you cannot tell us we are being unfair.. We have all heard rumours, about different 'organisations' planning different things.

I hardly think it is unfair to think bad things about demonstrators who have threatened to endanger the dogs?!

If you look carefully at this thread, most of us have said it is ok for the silent demonstrators 
(someone has said if it were a silent protest with placards telling why not to us a crtain brand than that would be fine. Go near my dog and you leave injured -not word for word but u get the jist)
it's the IDIOTS who do not listen to both sides of the argument/story and just believe every single word that pedigree dogs exposed program said.. that dont think about the individuals, and who do not realise that there ARE good breeders, showers and owners. The Complete Morons, who have threatened to let dogs loose, poison them, damage property. These are the demonstrators we are getting at.

x


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

i won't be there, i have far more importent things to do with my time. No true animal rights activist would harm an animal


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> I do agree with you, there are people out there who want to spoil it for everyone which is pretty pathetic . I'm a peaceful demonstrator. I don't believe in using force to get word across.


Good  if only more of them were like you, these sort of things would be much less worrying to people.

I don't see the sense in people protesting against cruelty to animals and animal welfare issues, if all they are going to do is harm people and more specifically, animals. It just defies the point of their protests, and makes them look as bad, or even worse than the people they protest against!


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> Animal rights activists are nothing like football holigans, that is a seriously unfair remark.
> And if you stopped listening to rumors and actually read what that link had to say, you'll know that -
> 
> Q. Won't the demo be frightening to the dogs
> ...


Many animal rights activists are just like football hooligans! And I am not being unfair. I also indicated that if they were content with standing quitely at the IAMS stand with placards displaying the atrocities that IAMS have commited then i'll stand with em!!

but somehow I don't think many will be content with that.
So i'll draw my conclusions on Sunday thank you!
DT


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## sharon783 (Mar 3, 2009)

well thanks for your replies guys. Just spoke to my Mum, she said there going to phone to NEC tomorrow to see what kind of security there will be there etc. 
Good luck to you all that are showing!!


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## Varkhond (Mar 1, 2009)

WTF is their problem?  Damm retards find anykind of excuse to make unrest. They should all be send with the next marsproject, we need some testsubjects anyway.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

poisongirl said:


> They may be organising a harmless protest... but was there not a thread warning people about a group going to crufts who were going to go round and let dogs loose?
> I don't call that peacefull. That is just asking for trouble, the dogs would get lost, stressed, fight, injured..
> 
> If I was showing a dog at crufts he would not be left alone at all.. And yeah, if someone wanted to ask me questions I would answer them politely, but the instant someone made a wrong move- they would know about it!
> ...


Look, I am no fan of Crufts as you all know, but if people keep away surely they are allowing these idiots to win!

I knew of one lady who used to show here Old English Sheepdog until he was actually poisoned! So I would NEVER leave a dog alone at any event that concerned showing 

I also think that there are many genuine people who will be at the demonstration, so please do not lump them all together. Surely all pet owners should be standing together at the Iams stall handing out leaflets, but acting in a peaceable manner.

In my opinion, Crufts do themselves no favors at all by being associated with this company. But then I am not a fan of Crufts either.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

Well there have been plenty of email's going around that have been sent to exhibitors stating things like,A dead dog is better than a showdog etc.

I think it's appaulling,who knows what these so called protesters are capable of.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Are Iams actually sponsoring Crufts? I haven't seen them mentioned in the list of sponsors.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Well there have been plenty of email's going around that have been sent to exhibitors stating things like,A dead dog is better than a showdog etc.
> 
> I think it's appaulling,who knows what these so called protesters are capable of.


I have heard so much Sal it is shocking. Seemingly letting dogs out etc..
They attended Westminster and one was dressed as a Klu Klux Klan member Jeez now what has that got to do with dogs!!!! I would have swiftly removed him and placed him in the middle of Harlem or Queens and let the people there sort him out LOL See how brave he was then


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

clueless said:


> I have heard so much Sal it is shocking. Seemingly letting dogs out etc..
> They attended Westminster and one was dressed as a Klu Klux Klan member Jeez now what has that got to do with dogs!!!! I would have swiftly removed him and placed him in the middle of Harlem or Queens and let the people there sort him out LOL See how brave he was then


Lol,
It's disgraceful and these sort of protesters want to be taken seriously.

Apparently the letting dogs out of the crates,benches etc was also contained in the same email sent to exhibitors.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> i won't be there, i have far more importent things to do with my time. No true animal rights activist would harm an animal


Exactly. Sadly there are people who will join in any campaign for the sake of a argument. It happened with the anti-vivi, the hunt, dads for justice and now this. Personally I'm not a million miles away from their thinking but I'll protest with my money and not by causing a fight.


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## firstforpets (Sep 8, 2008)

From the link I thought they made it clear that they would not be harming any animals as they go to great lengths to try and prevent animal cruelty? I didnt read anywhere that they would harm or frighten the dogs...

I was really surprised to hear ppl comparing activists to football hooligans, I think the intentions of each group do not really coincide (i.e. the main objective of the activists is to raise awareness yet I believe the intentions of the football hooligans is to cause trouble)

I dont think many people will realise the health effects of breeding animals for their looks (you know, smaller gene pool etc) dont get me wrong, we have a rottie, but I wasnt aware of these issues until recently so I like the idea of bringing about awareness - often people who love dogs dont realize just how many rescue dogs are out there or the potential health side effects of breeding for looks etc.

This has certainly broardened my mind and next time I go to buy I dog (or a friend or family member) we can chat about this and make a more informed decision.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> Well there have been plenty of email's going around that have been sent to exhibitors stating things like,A dead dog is better than a showdog etc.
> 
> I think it's appaulling,who knows what these so called protesters are capable of.


I do not disagree Sallyanne and as I said before, these people are as bad as Iams in my humble opinion. All they are doing is alienating the very people that the leaflets should be targeting, and are not genuine animal lovers.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

Nina said:


> I do not disagree Sallyanne and as I said before, these people are as bad as Iams in my humble opinion. All they are doing is alienating the very people that the leaflets should be targeting, and are not genuine animal lovers.


Nina you have a real bee in your bonnet about Iams don't you


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

JSR said:


> Exactly. Sadly there are people who will join in any campaign for the sake of a argument. It happened with the anti-vivi, the hunt, dads for justice and now this. Personally I'm not a million miles away from their thinking but I'll protest with my money and not by causing a fight.


JSR PLEASE do not lump genuine animal lovers together with the mindless minority, it is NOT fair.

My o/h and I, used to go on hunts to protest against blood sports (although I went only once) and believe me, some of these huntsmen were disgusting the way they would lash out at anyone holding a placard. They can and did cause serious injury and were certainly NOT blameless.

I am just sorry that I cannot be at Crufts to join a PEACEFUL demonstration, which in my opinion, should actually be held OUTSIDE. This way no dogs would be spooked or upset. After all, the protest should be aimed at the owners. The poor dogs do not have a say


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Both th Iams and Vegiies protests will be outside at the main entrance.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Nina said:


> JSR PLEASE do not lump genuine animal lovers together with the mindless minority, it is NOT fair.
> 
> My o/h and I, used to go on hunts to protest against blood sports (although I went only once) and believe me, some of these huntsmen were disgusting the way they would lash out at anyone holding a placard. They can and did cause serious injury and were certainly NOT blameless.
> 
> I am just sorry that I cannot be at Crufts to join a PEACEFUL demonstration, which in my opinion, should actually be held OUTSIDE. This way no dogs would be spooked or upset. After all, the protest should be aimed at the owners. The poor dogs do not have a say


Oh don't get me wrong, I too was heavily involved in hunt protests and anti vivisection during the 80's but it all became too extreame when certain people joined for the pure reason of a fight and that's on both sides!! Like I said it's happened not just with animals protestors, father's for justice, greenpeace etc have all seen the wrong elements get involved. I stopped my direct action because I refuse to be involved in anything that will hurt animals. The only way you can truly make a change in this country is by hitting them where it hurts and thats the pocket, no company or event can survive if we don't let them.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

JSR said:


> Oh don't get me wrong, I too was heavily involved in hunt protests and anti vivisection during the 80's but it all became too extreame when certain people joined for the pure reason of a fight and that's on both sides!! Like I said it's happened not just with animals protestors, father's for justice, greenpeace etc have all seen the wrong elements get involved. I stopped my direct action because I refuse to be involved in anything that will hurt animals. The only way you can truly make a change in this country is by hitting them where it hurts and thats the pocket, no company or event can survive if we don't let them.


Absolutely and totally agree 

Yes Sally, I do have a bee in my bonnet about Iams


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

clueless said:


> As I have already posted if they come near my dog they will leave with an injury. cannot be bothered with these type of people they need to go get a life. I am taking my son with me this year and he will also keep an eye on the benching


i`ll be keeping an eye too lol we got none of are`s there so i will be everyones else dog watchers lol...they wanna start we will go out in force too...


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> i`ll be keeping an eye too lol we got none of are`s there so i will be everyones else dog watchers lol...they wanna start we will go out in force too...


Yeah a Crested sitter as I now have pesuaded my son not to go LOL


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Nina said:


> JSR PLEASE do not lump genuine animal lovers together with the mindless minority, it is NOT fair
> 
> I am just sorry that I cannot be at Crufts to join a PEACEFUL demonstration, which in my opinion, should actually be held OUTSIDE. This way no dogs would be spooked or upset. After all, the protest should be aimed at the owners. The poor dogs do not have a say


I am a person who feels demonstartions are okay for people's believes as long as they are peaceful.
What I do not get is These demonstrators are lumping all the show people together just as that programme did. Some will probably not even own a dog let alone anything about Breeding!!!


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

clueless said:


> I am a person who feels demonstartions are okay for people's believes as long as they are peaceful.
> What I do not get is These demonstrators are lumping all the show people together just as that programme did. Some will probably not even own a dog let alone anything about Breeding!!!


I agree clueless.

As a said previously, I am not a fan of Crufts, although I do love the fly ball, agility and the demonstrations.

I have nothing to do with the show world, but do feel that Crufts are doing very little to stem the control of over breeding or strengthening blood lines and the recent BBC programme only added to their problems.

I also agree that it is WRONG to tar everyone with the same brush. I should know, being a vegetarian I am often called mad 

I neither know nor care when Crufts takes place this year, but I pray to God that any demonstrations against either Crufts or Iam's, is conducted in a peaceable fashion and causes NO distress to either the dogs or their owners


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

A couple of links,
Birmingham Post - News - West Midlands News - Crufts to see 28,000 dogs on show despite protests
Kennel Club defies Crufts protests


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Nina said:


> JSR PLEASE do not lump genuine animal lovers together with the mindless minority, it is NOT fair.
> 
> My o/h and I, used to go on hunts to protest against blood sports (although I went only once) and believe me, some of these huntsmen were disgusting the way they would lash out at anyone holding a placard. They can and did cause serious injury and were certainly NOT blameless.
> 
> I am just sorry that I cannot be at Crufts to join a PEACEFUL demonstration, which in my opinion, should actually be held OUTSIDE. This way no dogs would be spooked or upset. After all, the protest should be aimed at the owners. The poor dogs do not have a say


I applaud you :yesnod: with regards to bloodsports. I hope the ban stays.

Anyway, i would love to help with the demonstration at crufts (but peacefully). Just to get the word out aboiut responsible breeding/iams etc. But i certainly would do no harm to anyones dog, i love dogs


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

_Breeding unhealthy dogs for aesthetic purposes is morally wrong._

have to say I agree with that one! just hope they don't mess up their interesting points by acting like prats!


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> That's pretty offensive to this forums members who are going don't you think,
> I am alerting one of the mods to your post.


Haven't the protesters been called similar?


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't think there are any on the forum Rona,
But why would anyone want the protesters to cause as much disruption as possible ?

I have friends that are going that are certainly not Scum nor are any of Pet Forums members.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

Maybe you agression should be directed in other channels! May I suggest you maybe look a little closer to home! The cruelty I have seen in the country which you currently reside has been pretty horrific!
DT


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Your absolutely, right that the cruelty and attitude towards animals in Turkiye is rife with problems but with the valued support of RSPCA etc.... A great deal of work has been done: Although there is a long way to go. What Turkiye does not have is the organised exploitation of animals through such events as crufts or blood sports.

İ do not condone any form of animal cruelty or the use of animals that is exploitative. The concept of the use of animals for either working purpose (ie guide dogs etc), food, experimentation (medical or otherwise) or the use of animal products (leather, milk etc). Yes my views may seem extreme but i have no understanding of people who proclaim there '*love'*
whist exploiting them for there own comfort or entertainment.

İf people are offended by that then so be it - i find the contradiction of stating a *love for animals * whilst exploiting them morally offensive.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> Your absolutely, right that the cruelty and attitude towards animals in Turkiye is rife with problems but with the valued support of RSPCA etc a great deal of work has been done although there is a long way to go. What turkiye does not have is the organised exploitation of animals through such events as crufts or blood sports.


I think you on the wrong forum :Yawn: :Yawn:

RSPCA,Please don't make me laugh!


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

Crufts is not just about showing dogs! And many show dog owners will tell you that their dogs enjoy showing. 
regards
DT


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## widgetdog35 (Apr 25, 2008)

i look forward to crufts every year. our club has agility and flyball dogs going and i have a friend showing, i myself will be working on a friends stand every one is worried we all know how these things can end up noone wants to leave there dog alone while they run the other, they are scared of there animals getting hurt by the stupidity of some people. go find the puppy farms and protest i could point them in the direction of some just look in the papers of on puppy sale site why are they not doing anything about it too???

i'll stop myself before i really start going on


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

widgetdog35 said:


> i look forward to crufts every year. our club has agility and flyball dogs going and i have a friend showing, i myself will be working on a friends stand every one is worried we all know how these things can end up noone wants to leave there dog alone while they run the other, they are scared of there animals getting hurt by the stupidity of some people. go find the puppy farms and protest i could point them in the direction of some just look in the papers of on puppy sale site why are they not doing anything about it too???
> 
> i'll stop myself before i really start going on


Puppy farms wont get the publicity that crufts will.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> I think you on the wrong forum :Yawn: :Yawn:
> 
> RSPCA,Please don't make me laugh!


Yes the RSPCA are not my favourite organisation but there money has been used for good purposes here.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> İ do not condone any form of animal cruelty or the use of animals that is exploitative. The concept of the use of animals for either working purpose (ie guide dogs etc), food, experimentation (medical or otherwise) or the use of animal products (leather, milk etc). Yes my views may seem extreme but i have no understanding of people who proclaim there '*love'*
> whist exploiting them for there own comfort or entertainment.
> 
> İf people are offended by that then so be it - i find the contradiction of stating a *love for animals * whilst exploiting them morally offensive.


Your not a member of Peta by any chance are you ?


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Your not a member of Peta by any chance are you ?


Thought exactly the same:thumbdown:


----------



## widgetdog35 (Apr 25, 2008)

very true but how many puppy farmers will have dogs there?
its that hole one rotten apple thing that gets me i'm 110% behind healthy dogs and good keeping and breeding. but they are going to abuse everyone who enters when 99.9% of people that go just want to go dog shopping (as in toys and beds) and enjoy seeing all dogs no matter what breed shape or colour.


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## Domoniques (Feb 7, 2009)

turkeylad
You like a lot of the other morons going to crufts to cause a slight disruption 
have no ideal what you are talking about , The other people who show cats ,rabbits , pigs , horses ,birds , ducks , and another animal that is shown at any show ) you might think of if you can or do .
YOU cannot say every one is the same you get good and bad in all walks of life but morons don't have many brain cells to start with so find it hard to engage brain .


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

widgetdog35 said:


> very true but how many puppy farmers will have dogs there?
> its that hole one rotten apple ting that gets me i'm 110% behind healthy dogs and good keeping and breeding. but they are going to abuse everyone who enters when 99.9% of people that go just want to go dog shopping (as in toys and beds) and enjoy seeing all dogs no matter what breed shape or colour.


Good post,

I fear the wrong people will be affected by the actions of the majority of these so called animal lovers! I prefer to call them something else but will keep that to myself! juust for the time being
DT


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> No I dont think so - the mindless who attend crufts as visitors and the scum who show there dogs in this evil and offensive way are on a par with countryside alliance and those who condone blood sports and offensive pactices.
> So long as the animals are protected i personally have no regard for peaceful protest against humans who exploit animals either through animal testing or for so called entertainment purposes.


Yadda yadda yadda LOL What do you feed your dogs!!!!!


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

Trying to follow this this thread - forgive my ignorance but what is PETA??


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Not a member of any organisation now but support aims of ALF etc but dont always support actions.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

Sampuppy said:


> Trying to follow this this thread - forgive my ignorance but what is PETA??


An organization that supposedly has the interest of animals at heart - it seems that 90% of animals in its care were PTS last yuear.
Sally will no doubt explain better then I have as to be honest I'm pretty fed up with the whole issue atm.
DT


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

Sampuppy said:


> Trying to follow this this thread - forgive my ignorance but what is PETA??


PETA UK: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

PETA stands for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, 
They don't believe in dogs or other animals been kept as pets,etc
This link will explain PETA Kills Animals | PetaKillsAnimals.com


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

OMG - you learn something new every day!!!! Thank you for enlightening me - I am just a thicko who cares about animals without really understanding the 'big wide world'. Gutted about any abuse of animals!!!!


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Hang on a sec. Turkeylad has a right to say whatever he wants about crufts, he is entitiled to an opinion wether you agree or not. I personally don't like crufts myself, i have said though, i wouldn't want any dogs to get hurt, nor would i want anything other than a peacefull demonstration by the activists.

And can we all stop slagging PETA off please?! There are supporters of PETA here as well as non supporters, PETA arn't even attending crufts, so there's no need to bring them up! 

I do admire the fact that Turkeylad has the balls to voice an opinion as strong as that. Wether you agree with him or not, or wether your a fan of PETA or not, please bair in mind that it's not nice to belittle someone for having different views to you.


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## widgetdog35 (Apr 25, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> No I dont think so - the mindless who attend crufts as visitors and the scum who show there dogs in this evil and offensive way are on a par with countryside alliance and those who condone blood sports and offensive pactices.
> So long as the animals are protected i personally have no regard for peaceful protest against humans who exploit animals either through animal testing or for so called entertainment purposes.


your just the sort of person that has not got all the facts and looked from all angles.

I forgot my dogs hate agility and as for feeding them on a natual diet that god or what/who ever designed them for ... well, F**K me!! i really don't need all the s**t that people like u bring to everyone else that just go for the love of dogs and all things doggie no one is saying that the bad people don't want to be stopped but look at some real facts, wake up lifes not that black and white bad breeders will always be about thats the floor in humans some are just bad and its not just dog that get the ruff end of it.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> Hang on a sec. Turkeylad has a right to say whatever he wants about crufts, he is entitiled to an opinion wether you agree or not. I personally don't like crufts myself, i have said though, i wouldn't want any dogs to get hurt, nor would i want anything other than a peacefull demonstration by the activists.
> 
> And can we all stop slagging PETA off please?! There are supporters of PETA here as well as non supporters, PETA arn't even attending crufts, so there's no need to bring them up!
> 
> I do admire the fact that Turkeylad has the balls to voice an opinion as strong as that. Wether you agree with him or not, or wether your a fan of PETA or not, please bair in mind that it's not nice to belittle someone for having different views to you.


He has no right to insult our forum members by referring to them as scum!
Yes gve your point of view but do we really need to resort to those members who are showing and attending crufts as scum ?
I don't think so!
Please bear in mind that name calling belongs in the playground!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> Hang on a sec. Turkeylad has a right to say whatever he wants about crufts, he is entitiled to an opinion wether you agree or not. I personally don't like crufts myself, i have said though, i wouldn't want any dogs to get hurt, nor would i want anything other than a peacefull demonstration by the activists.
> 
> And can we all stop slagging PETA off please?! There are supporters of PETA here as well as non supporters, PETA arn't even attending crufts, so there's no need to bring them up!
> 
> I do admire the fact that Turkeylad has the balls to voice an opinion as strong as that. Wether you agree with him or not, or wether your a fan of PETA or not, please bair in mind that it's not nice to belittle someone for having different views to you.


Opinions are opinions But do you really thing his post calling people SCUM was appropriate. People who go to Crufts are from all walks of life, young people go as well


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

Oh dear - time for bed I think????


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Yes, Scum was harsh, i had forgotten that he said that but still, this topic is getting ugly. What should have been a friendly chat/debate/discussion is slowly turning into childish name calling and patronising.


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

Please note some posts have been deleted from this thread which could have been insulting to many of our members.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

clueless said:


> Yadda yadda yadda LOL What do you feed your dogs!!!!!


My dogs are not Vegetarian to make them so would be exploitative.:cursing:


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> Hang on a sec. Turkeylad has a right to say whatever he wants about crufts, he is entitiled to an opinion wether you agree or not. I personally don't like crufts myself, i have said though, i wouldn't want any dogs to get hurt, nor would i want anything other than a peacefull demonstration by the activists.
> 
> And can we all stop slagging PETA off please?! There are supporters of PETA here as well as non supporters, PETA arn't even attending crufts, so there's no need to bring them up!
> 
> I do admire the fact that Turkeylad has the balls to voice an opinion as strong as that. Wether you agree with him or not, or wether your a fan of PETA or not, please bair in mind that it's not nice to belittle someone for having different views to you.


You are beginning to seriously annoy me!!!! As I have often suggested to others I am now going to press my ignore button so any posts you make will be invisable!!! anyone else not wanting to engage in a scrap can always do likewise, Yes,, I said scrap because the word discussion hardly applies since you joined forces with your cronie!
Have fun
DT


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

Ditto DT!!!!


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

You are such a lovely person lol


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

&#304;n no way do &#304; apologise for my view of Crufts I will apologise to those people who were offended by the use of the word scum. :confused5:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> My dogs are not Vegetarian to make them so would be exploitative.:cursing:


LOL Always wondered why Vegans always fed their dogs Meat!!!


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Crufts is not just about showing dogs! And many show dog owners will tell you that their dogs enjoy showing.
> regards
> DT


PROVE İT!!


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> İn no way do İ apologise for my view of Crufts I will apologise to those people who were offended by the use of the word scum. :confused5:


Turkeylad

Has it ever occured to you that you are targeting the wrong people with your extremeist point of view!
The members of this forum are all animal lovers! who are you to tell them they should not be allowed to enjoy crufts? 
DT

The word scum does not offend me - ~I've heard far far far worse infact scum is one of the milder ones!


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

That's fine you are entitled to your views the same as other members but there is no need to offend our forum members.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> PROVE İT!!


You are the one claiming crufts is expoliting dogs,so can you prove that dogs do not enjoy it ?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

well at the end of the day i know i love my dogs & will be showing one at crufts (who really enjoys it) & like many others who will be going i also care about animal welfare. Really sad that people think we're scum & we've all been tarred with the same brush


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## widgetdog35 (Apr 25, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> well at the end of the day i know i love my dogs & will be showing one at crufts (who really enjoys it) & like many others who will be going i also care about animal welfare. Really sad that people think we're scum & we've all been tarred with the same brush


Well done for you and your dogs they look stunning hope you enjoy yourself and me and my dogs wish you lots of luck


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> PROVE İT!!


No point! you're obviously a tile short of a roof and would never understand it!
I have your mate on ignore!!! you're just joined him!!
byebye sunshine


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

widgetdog35 said:


> Well done for you and your dogs they look stunning hope you enjoy yourself and me and my dogs wish you lots of luck


aww thankyou very much


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> well at the end of the day i know i love my dogs & will be showing one at crufts (who really enjoys it) & like many others who will be going i also care about animal welfare. Really sad that people think we're scum & we've all been tarred with the same brush


Well said Noushka. Mine love the attention at Crufts, seem to like the ooh and aah's from the Public LOL. I will also be there this year as one of the so called Scum. Good Luck


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Turkeylad
> 
> Has it ever occured to you that you are targeting the wrong people with your extremeist point of view!
> The members of this forum are all animal lovers! who are you to tell them they should not be allowed to enjoy crufts?
> DT


Totally agree,
Yes there are bad breeders,yes there will probably be some at crufts but these will be in the minority,if you care about animal welfare you would target puppy farmers and BYB's etc,not an event where the majority are damn good breeders who own healthy animals in tip top condition.

EDITED TO ADD: To all of those attending,Good luck and best wishes,do the dog world proud by not responding to these animal extremists.Treat them with the contempt they deserve!


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> PROVE İT!!


Whats up?

Are you having a bad hair day?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

clueless said:


> Well said Noushka. Mine love the attention at Crufts, seem to like the ooh and aah's from the Public LOL. I will also be there this year as one of the so called Scum. Good Luck


thanx Clueless xxx have a great day & Good luck to you too:thumbup:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Totally agree,
> Yes there are bad breeders,yes there will probably be some at crufts but these will be in the minority,if you care about animal welfare you would target puppy farmers and BYB's etc,not an event where the majority are damn good breeders who own healthy animals in tip top condition.
> 
> EDITED TO ADD: To all of those attending,Good luck and best wishes,do the dog world proud by not responding to these animal extremists.Treat them with the contempt they deserve!


i totally agree, everyone would be 100% behind them if they targeted the real scum!


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Does anyone know when it's on tv?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

its not.....


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

isn't it usually broadcast on tv?


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> isn't it usually broadcast on tv?


You on a wind up ?
Surely you heard the BBC pulled the plug because the KC refused to be bullied.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

the bbc & the KC have mutually agreed to terminate the contract which would have ended in 2010


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> isn't it usually broadcast on tv?


 BBC will n ot be there this year Woo Hoo. If you feel sad about that though you can watch Estenders as there is a Showdog on there. Hope they filmed episodes in advance as He will be at Crufts


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

No i am not. I usually watch it every year. i didn't realise that the bbc had pulled out, thanks for the update


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Lily's Mum said:


> Whats up?
> 
> Are you having a bad hair day?


No not at all just find peoples defence of Crufts unbelievable:mad2:


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> No not at all just find peoples defence of Crufts unbelievable:mad2:


Perhaps you should give your reasons for thinking what you do about Crufts,,,but try putting it across in a balanced, non judgemental manner.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

GOOD ON THE BBC


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> No not at all just find peoples defence of Crufts unbelievable:mad2:


Did you say you supported ALF ?

They are supported by Peta so my assumption wasn't far out was it ?

During the 1990s, PETA paid $70,200 to Rodney Coronado, an Animal Liberation Front (ALF) serial arsonist convicted of burning down a Michigan State University research laboratory. In his sentencing memorandum, a federal prosecutor implicated PETA president Ingrid Newkirk in that crime. PETA vegetarian campaign coordinator Bruce Friedrich has also told an animal rights convention that blowing stuff up and smashing windows is a great way to bring about animal liberation, adding, Hallelujah to the people who are willing to do it.

Disgusting and you are complaining about crufts,honestly don't understand what makes some people tick.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> GOOD ON THE BBC


Yep it's great as exhibitors will tell you,the coverage was pretty pants anyway.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> GOOD ON THE BBC


LOL Show exhibitors are soooo pleased they will not be there. So Good on the BBC Haha


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

clueless said:


> LOL Show exhibitors are soooo pleased they will not be there. So Good on the BBC Haha


Ditto


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Did you say you supported ALF ?
> 
> Disgusting and you are complaining about crufts,honestly don't understand what makes some people tick.


Maybe he swallowed a clock Sal! like the croc in Treasure ~Island

the way he keeps banging his head on that wall is worrying me:mad2: he'll give himself brain damage if he's not careful
DT


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> Not a member of any organisation now but support aims of ALF etc but dont always support actions.


This is the actual quote



sallyanne said:


> Did you say you supported ALF ?
> Disgusting and you are complaining about crufts,honestly don't understand what makes some people tick.


Not quite as bad as at first seemed


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Maybe he swallowed a clock Sal! like the croc in Treasure ~Island


I love that film lol


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2009)

rona said:


> This is the actual quote
> 
> Not quite as bad as at first seemed


Thanks Rona 
It was a few posts back and I've had a beer so couldn't be bothered to go backwards.


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

I do not support animal testing, exploitation etc. However, neither do I support extremists who, through their actions, completely turn any support people may have given to them away (you just have to read the thread to see that although people do love animals, the way ideas have been put across completely alienates them). 

I admire the fact that they are dedicated to their cause but it upsets me when extremists do things like setting Mink from fur farms loose in the countryside without thinking what these voracious killers would do to the natural fauna. If they had relocated them sensibly that would have been different and may even have gained more support. Instead it caused the mink to be hunted and the natural wildlife to be decimated and people to forget the real plight of the animals involved. 

I know this has nothing to do with Crufts, but I am just trying to let people know that there are ways and ways of doing things. You catch more bees with honey...


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2009)

Apparently there were no protesters at crufts today and people have throughly enjoyed themselves


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Apparently there were no protesters at crufts today and people have throughly enjoyed themselves


Good.  Hope all goes well tomorrow.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Apparently there were no protesters at crufts today and people have throughly enjoyed themselves


Yeah They must have found something better to protest about Hopefully


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Guinevere13 said:


> Good.  Hope all goes well tomorrow.


Thats a great shame! Oh well the exploiters win again.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

clueless said:


> LOL Always wondered why Vegans always fed their dogs Meat!!!


Hi Clueless, Vegans (well most!) have no problem feeding animals meat as they were designed to hunt/kill/eat others animals. They are vegans because they are against killing animals for human consumption and that is in regards to meat, dairy etc. 
The way i look at it us humans were not designed for killing animals as it is US who invented such lethal weapons such as spears, knives, guns etc. It was not the way 'God' made us nor is it in our genetic make up to fight another animal.........we have nothing to fight with naturally!!!!!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> No point! you're obviously a tile short of a roof and would never understand it!
> I have your mate on ignore!!! you're just joined him!!
> byebye sunshine


That had me in stitches!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for bringing something funny to this thread!!! 
I am trying to follow it but seem to be lagging behind!!!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> Thats a great shame! Oh well the exploiters win again.


I don't agree with the way some breeds have been changed over the years just for aesthetic reasons but the people on here on obviously animal lovers?!?!?! Or they wouldn't be on here, this is not just a show related forum but an Animal LOVERS one 
As said in a previous post there will be bad breeders there but there will also be good. Don't tar everyone with same brush, its very unfair. 
For some breeds if there wasn't showing they may become very vunerable as their orginal purpose isn't done anymore i.e deerhounds don't hunt deer anymore, and St Bernards aren't needed in the mountains like in the 1800's. Well this is true as far as i know  
The exhibitors have a huge passion for there dogs, surely this is obvious??? Do you know the amount of work that gets put in to achieve such a show dog???? The amount of money??? I am sorry but generally speaking here no one would do all that if they didn't care. Ok so some might be completely ignorant to their dogs welfare and happiness but your looking in the wrong place here if you are trying to find them


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> Hi Clueless, Vegans (well most!) have no problem feeding animals meat as they were designed to hunt/kill/eat others animals. They are vegans because they are against killing animals for human consumption and that is in regards to meat, dairy etc.
> The way i look at it us humans were not designed for killing animals as it is US who invented such lethal weapons such as spears, knives, guns etc. It was not the way 'God' made us nor is it in our genetic make up to fight another animal.........we have nothing to fight with naturally!!!!!


Well said. Although i do have to pick you up on something if i may 
It was not the US that came up with spear, knives, guns etc. It was in fact the British. After all, all Americans are decended from the one British man who discovered America


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> Thats a great shame! Oh well the exploiters win again.


Who rattled your cage?
DT


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> Well said. Although i do have to pick you up on something if i may
> It was not the US that came up with spear, knives, guns etc. It was in fact the British. After all, all Americans are decended from the one British man who discovered America


Sorry i meant 'us' as in humans i put it in captital letters thats all


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> Hang on a sec. Turkeylad has a right to say whatever he wants about crufts, he is entitiled to an opinion wether you agree or not. I personally don't like crufts myself, i have said though, i wouldn't want any dogs to get hurt, nor would i want anything other than a peacefull demonstration by the activists.
> 
> And can we all stop slagging PETA off please?! There are supporters of PETA here as well as non supporters, PETA arn't even attending crufts, so there's no need to bring them up!
> 
> I do admire the fact that Turkeylad has the balls to voice an opinion as strong as that. Wether you agree with him or not, or whether your a fan of PETA or not, please bare in mind that it's not nice to belittle someone for having different views to you.


Just seen the latter part of this thread and I have to agree with Chris here. We all have opinions, right or wrong and Peta do a hell of a lot of good work. Where would we be without the RSPCA, Peta and other animal organisations who's members work tirelessly to promote animal welfare!! YOU CANNOT and SHOULD NOT lump everyone in the same category, this is morally wrong.

Unfortunately some of these threads look to be extremely biased and are giving the opinion that anyone demonstrating at Crufts are animal activist which is simply not true. Please let us have some fairness here :001_smile:


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Nina said:


> Just seen the latter part of this thread and I have to agree with Chris here. We all have opinions, right or wrong and Peta do a hell of a lot of good work. Where would we be without the RSPCA, Peta and other animal organisations who's members work tirelessly to promote animal welfare!! YOU CANNOT and SHOULD NOT lump everyone in the same category, this is morally wrong.
> 
> Unfortunately some of these threads look to be extremely biased and are giving the opinion that anyone demonstrating at Crufts are animal activist which is simply not true. Please let us have some fairness here :001_smile:


Crufts is just another dog show,one of many all breed CH Shows through the year,so why target just Crufts ?

I personally have no time for either Peta or the RSPCA,animal welfare,Nina you must be joking.
They may promote animal welfare, pity they don't do, as they promote,is it a case of do as we say,not as we do!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I read on another forum that a can of paint was thrown over a dog as it was between the car park and building yesterday. Apparently it was an agility dog, not a show dog. I guess it may have even been a crossbreed, too.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> I read on another forum that a can of paint was thrown over a dog as it was between the car park and building yesterday. Apparently it was an agility dog, not a show dog. I guess it may have even been a crossbreed, too.


How disgusting is that 

Hope the dog and owner was ok ?


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> I read on another forum that a can of paint was thrown over a dog as it was between the car park and building yesterday. Apparently it was an agility dog, not a show dog. I guess it may have even been a crossbreed, too.


Do you have proof that this had happened? Was it mentioned in any news article?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

No, I've googled it but got nothing so far.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> I read on another forum that a can of paint was thrown over a dog as it was between the car park and building yesterday. Apparently it was an agility dog, not a show dog. I guess it may have even been a crossbreed, too.


How appaling - these clowns will never get my sympathy
If that had been my dog I would bring a civil claim for damages, easier then a private prosecution, there'd be no way i'd walk away!
DT


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Obviously, if it is true, then they had no right to do it. Also i hope they punch the person responsible. But as there's no proof...yet, we shouldn't bad mouth until we find the facts out


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Have just heard that a collie had been spayed with paint but as yet don't know if the scource is 100% reliable.
DT


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Is this the same dog or are we talking about a different dog? What source did you get this info from if you dont mind me asking?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

I've seen the post too,
Aparently it was aimed at the handler, dispicable people :mad5:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

If it's a collie then that would most likely be an agility dog on a Thursday.


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## Laice2009 (Mar 4, 2009)

you all dont have a clue what you are talking about! The RSPCA are hipocrits as they are cruel to animals themselves. If a dog goes to the rspca and they dont have room for it then they put it down! I for one, am glad they arent backing crufts anymore, because they are crap! Most people who breed dogs are good at it and really care for the animals and will find them good homes, its only the small minority that are bad breeders who dont care. All you animal rights activists obviously dont know what youre talking about and dont have first hand expeirence in this. Im not for animal crueltly but come on! Crufts is not cruel. Youre all deluded. :mad2:


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

Laice2009 said:


> you all dont have a clue what you are talking about! The RSPCA are hipocrits as they are cruel to animals themselves. If a dog goes to the rspca and they dont have room for it then they put it down! I for one, am glad they arent backing crufts anymore, because they are crap! Most people who breed dogs are good at it and really care for the animals and will find them good homes, its only the small minority that are bad breeders who dont care. All you animal rights activists obviously dont know what youre talking about and dont have first hand expeirence in this. Im not for animal crueltly but come on! Crufts is not cruel. Youre all deluded. :mad2:


There was no need for that. We are all having a peacefull discussion now, and please stop with the childish name calling, we're all adults here 
And you say that we're all deluded, only one person on here has said that crufts is cruel, so aim that at him please, not at everyone else.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Laice2009 said:


> Most people who breed dogs are good at it and really care for the animals and will find them good homes, its only the small minority that are bad breeders who dont care. QUOTE]
> 
> Calm down, it's a polite and educated conversation going on.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Laice2009 said:


> you all dont have a clue what you are talking about! The RSPCA are hipocrits as they are cruel to animals themselves. If a dog goes to the rspca and they dont have room for it then they put it down! I for one, am glad they arent backing crufts anymore, because they are crap! Most people who breed dogs are good at it and really care for the animals and will find them good homes, its only the small minority that are bad breeders who dont care. All you animal rights activists obviously dont know what youre talking about and dont have first hand expeirence in this. Im not for animal crueltly but come on! Crufts is not cruel. Youre all deluded. :mad2:


Well welcome to the forum Laice, I think before you just jump in with both your big feet and your even bigger mouth that maybe you should read a few of the posts on the forum.
You will find that a lot of us, myself included had absolutely no time whatsoever for the RSPCA - our views are as it happens pretty much the same as those you display!

DT


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Snoringbear said:


> I read on another forum that a can of paint was thrown over a dog as it was between the car park and building yesterday. Apparently it was an agility dog, not a show dog. I guess it may have even been a crossbreed, too.


I absolutely agree that this is appalling and IF true and it was my dog, I would prosecute.

Sally, you cannot in all conscious say that everyone within the RSPCA is awful, or Peta. There are good and bad in every organisation and I for one, could not deal with some of the cruelty cases that these people deal with. I have to agree with JSR here.

I think Crufts are being targeted as they are a large organisation and responsible for the breed standard.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Nina said:


> Sally, you cannot in all conscious say that everyone within the RSPCA is awful, or Peta. There are good and bad in every organisation and I for one, could not deal with some of the cruelty cases that these people deal with. I have to agree with JSR here.


I wasn't saying that Nina,I have my own opinions,I will not support extremists like Peta,who don't believe in dogs been kept as pets etc,as for the RSPCA I have no time for them whatsoever.



Nina said:


> I think Crufts are being targeted as they are a large organisation and responsible for the breed standard.


Nina Crufts is not an organisation,it is a Championship dog show end of!

They are in no way responsible for the breed standards nor are the KC,the breed standards are set by Breeders and Breed Clubs.So if you don't agree with certain standards complain to the breed club responsible.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally I have long said that I know nothing about showing since it does not interest me at all.

My pets are just that, pets and I have no desire to watch beauty pageants, but that is my choice but I respect their decisions.

You cannot blame me for having a bad taste in my mouth when I have a year old GSD from show lines, who is badly cow hocked. I am also appalled when I see footage of last years show where one GSD was tottering around the ring to rapturous applause, which I find sickening. It really upsets me to see what has been done to the breed I love. I also understand that it is the KC who dictate standards, so that was my mistake, however isn't Crufts run by the KC. As I said, I am rather ignorant of the show world.

I have been taking part in this discussion like everyone else and offering my opinion, just as you are doing. The RSPCA get it wrong just like every other organisation but where would we be without them. I have met some wonderful people within this organisation and I would never tar everyone with the same brush.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Nina said:


> I absolutely agree that this is appalling and IF true and it was my dog, I would prosecute.


I am afraid if it was my dog, my reaction would be immediate and direct - forget about prosecution!!!



Nina said:


> , you cannot in all conscious say that everyone within the RSPCA is awful, or Peta. There are good and bad in every organisation and I for one, could not deal with some of the cruelty cases that these people deal with.


I kind of agree as regards the RSPCA. While I have a lot of respect for some of the RSPCA's local workers (although by no means all), I have little or none for them as a national organisation. I have no respect or time for* anyone* who would align themselves with PETA - a truly disgusting organisation.



Nina said:


> think Crufts are being targeted as they are a large organisation and responsible for the breed standard.


Neither Crufts nor the Kennel Club are responsible for Breed Standards. The Breed clubs are the people who write the standards. Crufts is just a dog show - a big famous dog show, but just a dog show. 
Crufts is targetted simply because the animal rights nutters know that they can be assured of maximum publicity. Demonstrating at a breed club committee meeting would not have quite the same "sexy" appeal to the media.

On Laice2009's point, I am afraid that it is no longer true that good breeders outnumber bad ones. Far from it! Good, responsible, ethical breeders are outnumbered 10 times or more by the money oriented puppy farmers, backyard breeders and naive/greedy "pet" breeders. Ironically, though the breeders represented at Crufts are likely to be the good, responsible, ethical breeders and the idiots are targetting the wrong people completely!!!

Mick


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Mick I don't disagree with you when you say that you would do more than prosecute someone targeting your dog. I think we would all be in danger of being prosecuted ourselves 

As I have stated so many times, I honestly do not know that much about the show fraternity, neither do I want to, but I do so enjoy agility, fly ball and demonstrations, since it is watching dogs having fun.

My previous GSD's come from working lines, and I wish to God that I had held out for another instead of getting a puppy from show lines. Please do not get me wrong, I absolutely adore Luika, but he is so limited in what he can do and the amount of exercise he has. My feelings are that he will not make old bones and we have spent an absolute fortune on him in the past year.

As I sad previously, cow hocked dogs can be seen in the show ring which I think is utterly appalling


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Nina said:


> Sally I have long said that I know nothing about showing since it does not interest me at all.
> 
> My pets are just that, pets and I have no desire to watch beauty pageants, but that is my choice but I respect their decisions.
> 
> ...


Yes the RSPCA get it wrong but there money can fund great work. Like you İ am appalled that dogs are exploited in the ring for human entertainment.:cursing:


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Hi Nina,

I wouldn't disagree with you that some breeds have gone in directions which are not good for the dogs. I do think that they are in a tiny minority however, and, again, it is the responsibility of breed clubs rather than "Crufts" or even the Kennel Club.

Mick


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> Yes the RSPCA get it wrong but there money can fund great work. Like you İ am appalled that dogs are exploited in the ring for human entertainment.:cursing:


you've obviously never been to a show because the dogs that go love it, its a great way to socialise them when theyre puppies it gives them confidence, but i have 1 that dosent enjoy it so i wont take her. If dogs arnt happy in the ring you cant make them look as though theyre enjoying it


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

raindog said:


> Hi Nina,
> 
> I wouldn't disagree with you that some breeds have gone in directions which are not good for the dogs. I do think that they are in a tiny minority however, and, again, it is the responsibility of breed clubs rather than "Crufts" or even the Kennel Club.
> 
> Mick


I agree Mick,
And you will always get dogs which have faults been shown,this lies with the judge on the day as to whether or not the dog is placed,to be fair the judge can only judge the dogs they have infront of them.

Nina - I have had dealings with the RSPCA,needless to say I was not impressed by how downright rude and obnoxious this person was,I don't tar everyone with the same brush but I have no time for them and I certainly would not give my money to them.


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

My Lily has a Mum from Show lines and a Dad who works 6 months and shows 6 months.

So we could say she is mainly from show lines.

Her breeder who shows is an ambassador for dog breeders. Health checks, gives any prospective puppy owner the third degree,,,,and actively campaigns for animal welfare and has successfully helped get a local puppy farm shut down.

And as for Lily she is perfectly healthy, has a temperament that I have never seen in a dog before. In a nut shell we cannot tar all show dogs/ lines/ breeders with the same brush.


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> you've obviously never been to a show because the dogs that go love it, its a great way to socialise them when theyre puppies it gives them confidence, but i have 1 that dosent enjoy it so i wont take her. If dogs arnt happy in the ring you cant make them look as though theyre enjoying it


I agree, from what i have seen yesterday and today on Crufts tv, the dogs do look like their having a great time


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> İ am appalled that dogs are exploited in the ring for human entertainment.:cursing:


When did you last go to crufts?


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally,like you I have had a couple of run ins with the RSPCA, but my point was that you cannot tar them all with the same brush. 

We do an awful lot for animal rescue centres and so I do get to know a lot of people from within certain organisations. In fact I have just returned from Southridge in Potters Bar and they have some absolutely wonderful people working for them, including a really lovely RSPCA Inspector (he is also quite dishy ), so I do like to think that its the minority.

As for the show part. It is not something that I enjoy at all, but then I do not like beauty pageants of any kind. Truth be told I have always secretly harboured a wish to see one of those judges being bitten on the bum  especially when they are poking and prodding the dogs. I guess that's the devilment in me


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> When did you last go to crufts?


İ have never been and wouldnt go and before anyone argues that without seeing it İ cannot judge. İ have not been to a fox hunt or animal testing lab. but i know that in regards to my morality and belief structures they are of an equal nature to Crufts in that they exploit animals for the entertainment of humans.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> İ have never been and wouldnt go and before anyone argues that without seeing it İ cannot judge. İ have not been to a fox hunt or animal testing lab. but i know that in regards to my morality and belief structures they are of an equal nature to Crufts in that they exploit animals for the entertainment of humans.


OMG how can you compare!


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> İ have never been and wouldnt go and before anyone argues that without seeing it İ cannot judge. İ have not been to a fox hunt or animal testing lab. but i know that in regards to my morality and belief structures they are of an equal nature to Crufts in that they exploit animals for the entertainment of humans.


There is no comparison between crufts and fox hunting! Fox hunting is barbaric, cruel, needless, inflicts severe suffering, the list is endless. None of the dogs at Crufts are being cruely treated


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Very easily!:hand:


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

ChrisTheGerbilGuy said:


> There is no comparison between crufts and fox hunting! Fox hunting is barbaric, cruel, needless, inflicts severe suffering, the list is endless. None of the dogs at Crufts are being cruely treated


Crufts is also cruel and needless.


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## ChrisTheGerbilGuy (Aug 9, 2008)

No, Crufts is not cruel.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> Crufts is also cruel and needless.


Blimey you have some strange ideas :idea: :crazy:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> Crufts is also cruel and needless.


the sad thing is i actually think people like yourself could do a lot of harm to animal welfare organisations with your militant,blinkered attitude. If People think these charities are supported by extremists they will loose donations, & just incase you didnt realise "dogs dont get killed at Crufts"


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> the sad thing is i actually think people like yourself could do a lot of harm to animal welfare organisations with your militant,blinkered attitude. If People think these charities are supported by extremists they will loose donations, & just incase you didnt realise "dogs dont get killed at Crufts"


Didnt say they got killed - what İ said wwas that it was cruel and needless!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> Dnt say they got killed - what İ said wwas that it was cruel and needless!


No but you compared it to fox hunting & vivisection


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> Dnt say they got killed - what İ said wwas that it was cruel and needless!


Why is it cruel ?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Could i ask what the attatched picture is meant to show?

I see what looks like a mongrel (feel free to correct me - i dont know every dog breed lol), standing outside a wall in somewhere that looks like barcelona?, how does that compare to crufts?

Crufts is just a championship dog show, a bit like the supreme for cats, nothing more. Its famous which is whyit gets so much publicity.

Dogs enjoy the experience of a show, if a dog did not like it, for a start it would not place (as part of the judging is how well the dog performs), secondly an experienced and responsible breeder/owner/handler wouldnt take it to another show - and therefore it wouldnt qualify for crufts.

I do agree that there are some breeds, who's standards need revising as I personally feel that to conform to the standard is to the detriment of the breeds overall health. HOWEVER it is the breed clubs that set the standard (although the KC do have the power to make adjstments, or refuse to sanction areas that would be detrimental to health). It is true thought that the KC is making steady (if slow) progress as suggesting changes to the standards - I know of one breeder in particular closer to me who'sstandard has been changed to make sure the dogs nostrils are of an adequate size (and its not a brachiocephalic breed), to make sure the dogs can breathe well and clearly.

I really dont see dog shows as exploitation, if that were the case then we should ban all agility, flyball, cani-cross, sledding, scootering, gundogs, field trials, drug sniffer dogs, search and rescue dogs, guide dogs, hearing dogs, dogs for the disabled, PAT dogs, autism dogs, psych dogs, any other assistance dogs, carriage dogs, police dogs, guard dogs, heck we would even be banning SHEEPDOGS!!

To me a dog show is just an extention of what would have been traditional competitions between workin dog owners. From the sheepdogs in the fields and one farmer talking to another to sheepdog trials, working gundogs retrieving/flushing more than the other mans dog to field trials..... Its much easier to say "my dog is better than yours" if you have a rosette to prove it!  Including pet dogs was a natural progression to be part of that competition and the drive to improve! Remember most pet breeds (including toy) have their roots as working animals. Surely if showing a pet is exploitation, then so would any working animal?


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

It exploits the dogs and is needless in terms of being purely for the benefit of human entertainment.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

I really dont see dog shows as exploitation, if that were the case then we should ban all agility, flyball, cani-cross, sledding, scootering, gundogs, field trials, drug sniffer dogs, search and rescue dogs, guide dogs, hearing dogs, dogs for the disabled, PAT dogs, autism dogs, psych dogs, any other assistance dogs, carriage dogs, police dogs, guard dogs, heck we would even be banning SHEEPDOGS!!


But then in terms of my beliefs and moral standards &#304; would ban all of the above.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> It exploits the dogs and is needless in terms of being purely for the benefit of human entertainment.


If you think that crufts and dog shows/breeding is purely for the entertainment of others then you must then agree that other forms of "showing" is wrong? sheepdog trials etc etc etc


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> If you think that crufts and dog shows/breeding is purely for the entertainment of others then you must then agree that other forms of "showing" is wrong? sheepdog trials etc etc etc


Absolutely!!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

sorry i see you have answered that already. 

I dont see arguing with you is going to benefit me or anyone else - apart from exploiting us both for needless human entertainment.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> İ have never been and wouldnt go and before anyone argues that without seeing it İ cannot judge. İ have not been to a fox hunt or animal testing lab. but i know that in regards to my morality and belief structures they are of an equal nature to Crufts in that they exploit animals for the entertainment of humans.


OK then so we also ban the eating of all meat, as it's cruel to eat it, do you think the farmers would bother to breed them just to look at them ???? Before you know it they'd be as extinct as dodo's. 
DT


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

:laugh::devil:


billyboysmammy said:


> sorry i see you have answered that already.
> 
> I dont see arguing with you is going to benefit me or anyone else - apart from exploiting us both for needless human entertainment.


:lol: But its fun all the same!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> I really dont see dog shows as exploitation, if that were the case then we should ban all agility, flyball, cani-cross, sledding, scootering, gundogs, field trials, drug sniffer dogs, search and rescue dogs, guide dogs, hearing dogs, dogs for the disabled, PAT dogs, autism dogs, psych dogs, any other assistance dogs, carriage dogs, police dogs, guard dogs, heck we would even be banning SHEEPDOGS!!
> 
> But then in terms of my beliefs and moral standards İ would ban all of the above.


do you do nothing at all to stimulate your dogs? or are they just couch potatoes?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> It exploits the dogs and is needless in terms of being purely for the benefit of human entertainment.


Can I ask why you keep dogs as pets then,surely that is expoilting dogs for your own selfish entertainment and enjoyment ?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> I really dont see dog shows as exploitation, if that were the case then we should ban all agility, flyball, cani-cross, sledding, scootering, gundogs, field trials, drug sniffer dogs, search and rescue dogs, guide dogs, hearing dogs, dogs for the disabled, PAT dogs, autism dogs, psych dogs, any other assistance dogs, carriage dogs, police dogs, guard dogs, heck we would even be banning SHEEPDOGS!!
> 
> But then in terms of my beliefs and moral standards İ would ban all of the above.


Not that is the biggest load of cr*p iv'e read in a long time!! I reckon your a brick short of a wall myself!
DT


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> OK then so we also ban the eating of all meat, as it's cruel to eat it, do you think the farmers would bother to breed them just to look at them ???? Before you know it they'd be as extinct as dodo's.
> DT


As much as İ would like to see the banning of any form of killing i have at no time said İ would ban the eating of meat. i choose not to eat meat use any animal products and would not agree to certain surgical procedures for myself in the same way i would not partake of entertainments that were cruel and needless. ie Crufts hunting boxing fishing etc.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Not that is the biggest load of cr*p iv'e read in a long time!! I reckon your a brick short of a wall myself!
> DT


DT try not to be offensive!!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> As much as İ would like to see the banning of any form of killing i have at no time said İ would ban the eating of meat. i choose not to eat meat use any animal products and would not agree to certain surgical procedures for myself in the same way i would not partake of entertainments that were cruel and needless. ie Crufts hunting boxing fishing etc.


But boxing has nothing to do with animals - only fully adjusted human beings - OK some may be a bit lacking in the brain department, but they do it because they want to!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> As much as İ would like to see the banning of any form of killing i have at no time said İ would ban the eating of meat. i choose not to eat meat use any animal products and would not agree to certain surgical procedures for myself in the same way i would not partake of entertainments that were cruel and needless. ie Crufts hunting boxing fishing etc.


All I can say is you must lead a very dull and boring life,

Can you answer this please, Can I ask why you keep dogs as pets then,surely that is expoilting dogs for your own selfish entertainment and enjoyment ?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> DT try not to be offensive!!


Sometimes it's the only way to speak to some people ! you've had your say, maybe it's time you changed the record, you may find the forum has something to offer you and your animals!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> All I can say is you must lead a very dull and boring life,
> 
> Can you answer this please, Can I ask why you keep dogs as pets then,surely that is expoilting dogs for your own selfish entertainment and enjoyment ?


Hear Hear!!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hear Hear!!


Double standards here me thinks DT


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

<< GRABS POPCORN   

Mind you i would also like that question answered.

I would also like to know what products you dont use?, i presume silk, leather, wool etc, but what about the plant based fibres - surely we are exploiting the insects that pollonate them? or dont creepy crawlies count in your perfect world.

Can i ask what you feed your dogs too? - are they on a vegan diet?

IF so why?, as its definatly not the way that nature intended them to eat?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

btw i really enjoyed crufts today, and pleased that the sweet, gutsy little papillion won the toy group.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> As much as İ would like to see the banning of any form of killing i have at no time said İ would ban the eating of meat. i choose not to eat meat use any animal products and would not agree to certain surgical procedures for myself in the same way i would not partake of entertainments that were cruel and needless. ie Crufts hunting boxing fishing etc.


Well all I can say to this is that you have a very stange prespective! (not being offensive like:mad2::mad2

But I am going to ask you one more question before putting you back where you belong!

Do you feed you dogs live food? i'e baby bunnies etc??
DT


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well all I can say to this is that you have a very stange prespective! (not being offensive like:mad2::mad2
> 
> But I am going to ask you one more question before putting you back where you belong!
> 
> ...


NO Absolutely not!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> NO Absolutely not!


Well I hate to be the one to tell you - but maybe you are exploiting your dogs!!!

Dogs are not born with tin openers, neither can they go on to the takaway to buy food!! dogs were born with teeth - especially sharp ones at that, certain teeth are for ripping & tearing, others for biting & crunching, why do you think they have those?
Nothing to do with the fact that they would have had to hunt for their food do you think?
DT


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Do you feed you dogs live food? i'e baby bunnies etc??
> DT


That's going a little too far. He already said the dogs ate meat.

I think everyone needs a cuppa and a lie down.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> << GRABS POPCORN
> 
> Mind you i would also like that question answered.
> 
> ...


As İ have said previously my dogs are not vegetarian to make them so would be cruel and exploitative. İn terms of my belief structures no i would not use silk leather wool etc nor would i eat milk, honey etc


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

please turkey would you answer my questions.

I understand vegans dont use products that have been derived from an animal source, or from any type of use of animals - but how far does that go?

I'm sure your aware that certain fruits and nuts can only be pollinated by bees (brazil nuts for example), so what is the stance of a vegan on that.

What about other plant materials that rely on insects to pollinate? cotton, flax, hemp etc

Could you also please address the question about why you keep pet companion animals?, and what you feed them?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Guinevere13 said:


> That's going a little too far. He already said the dogs ate meat.
> 
> I think everyone needs a cuppa and a lie down.


just trying to gt a point across actually, sorry if it has offended certain people!
DT


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

ahh you must have replied while i was typing - but what about the other vegan beliefs, what about the plant based materials - surely the fact that the insects are pollinating them is exploitation?

i know thats completly OT too - just curious.


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

Dogs can survive on a vegetarian diet. A dog I know lacked the enzyme to break down meat. So has a vegetarian diet - it is a dry foo d. The dog is 12 years old and as fit as a green grocers dog.


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> I'm sure your aware that certain fruits and nuts can only be pollinated by bees (brazil nuts for example), so what is the stance of a vegan on that.
> 
> What about other plant materials that rely on insects to pollinate? cotton, flax, hemp etc


I am not a vegan but I understand that bees do the pollinating for their own purpose and as such it is ok to use the results of their pollinating. So I would think that the above would be ok. I stand ready to be corrected


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> please turkey would you answer my questions.
> 
> I understand vegans dont use products that have been derived from an animal source, or from any type of use of animals - but how far does that go?
> 
> ...


As İ live in a country where things like Brazil nuts are not imported. Much of food is locally grown and yes is pollonated and in terms of clothing etc i would wear cotton. As i said my animals are not vegetarian and do not have the option of making choices so they are fed on meat. :mad2:


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

thanks - if you read further down, i think we must have been typing at the same time, when i re-ased about what the dogs were fed...

i was curious about things like cotton, hemp flax, linen etc as to what a vegans stance is as naturally insects pollonate the plants - along with many plants we eat such as brazil nuts (where they are essential). I was also under the impression that brazil nuts were kind of essential in a vegan diet due to their high concentration of certain vitamins/minerals...


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

i wasnt refuting effectivness of a dog being fed a vegetarian diet, just wondering what a vegans stance on it would be...


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> i wasnt refuting effectivness of a dog being fed a vegetarian diet, just wondering what a vegans stance on it would be...


Oh yeah I know..
just that turkeylad was saying that it would be cruel to feed a vegetarian diet to a dog,..when in actual fact a dog can survive perfectly well on it..


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well I hate to be the one to tell you - but maybe you are exploiting your dogs!!!
> 
> Dogs are not born with tin openers, neither can they go on to the takaway to buy food!! dogs were born with teeth - especially sharp ones at that, certain teeth are for ripping & tearing, others for biting & crunching, why do you think they have those?
> Nothing to do with the fact that they would have had to hunt for their food do you think?
> DT


BUT then i would not feed any of my animals on the rubbish that comes from either tinned or dried foods. All my animals food is cooked by myself fromthe raw ingredients any animal treats are also, made in the same way. The junk that is in processed foods would not be something i would eat nor would i inflict it upon my animals. I also, have little regard for the pet industry so would not want to purchase there products


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> BUT then i would not feed any of my animals on the rubbish that comes from either tinned or dried foods. All my animals food is cooked by myself fromthe raw ingredients any animal treats are also, made in the same way. The junk that is in processed foods would not be something i would eat nor would i inflict it upon my animals. I also, have little regard for the pet industry so would not want to purchase there products


Let me bow before you and kiss ur feet....

Please oh mighty one where do u get your recipes from?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Turkeylad can you please answer my question,I won't hold my breath waiting .........


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

Lily's Mum said:


> Let me bow before you and kiss ur feet....
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Hope he ain't trod in anything yuccy!!! better check em first coz I don't reckon he agrees with using soap!


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Can I ask why you keep dogs as pets then,surely that is expoilting dogs for your own selfish entertainment and enjoyment ?


İf i had to purchase my animals from the pet industry i would not keep amimals at all. My animals are off the streets where without them being taken in. They would either die of starvation after the tourists leave, be shot. My 4 dogs and cats have had horrific injuries prior to them coming to live with us.

See my thread 'Hello İ am Mutlu'


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Lily's Mum said:
> 
> 
> > Let me bow before you and kiss ur feet....
> ...


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Lily's Mum said:
> 
> 
> > Let me bow before you and kiss ur feet....
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> BUT then i would not feed any of my animals on the rubbish that comes from either tinned or dried foods. All my animals food is cooked by myself fromthe raw ingredients any animal treats are also, made in the same way. The junk that is in processed foods would not be something i would eat nor would i inflict it upon my animals. I also, have little regard for the pet industry so would not want to purchase there products


Actually i can kid of see where your coming from with that, although my views are nowhere near as extreeme. I do think there are some cheap and nasty pet foods out there, but i do believe there are some good ones, and for convenience and the assurance of a balanced diet, they are the right thing for most owners and pets. Some of my reasoning for the bad pet foods comes from the less than human grades given to the meat products, the high uses of grains (totally not natural), and the nasty preservatives, colours etc.

However my cats (and at the moment my pup - he wont eat the dried food) are fed on a raw diet. My cats have a good quality biscuit available at all times, and they have one large raw meal a day. Thats where we differ more though, as you mentioned that you cooked your foods? - raw is the most natural way to feed, and the easiest to get right (other than a commercially produced high quality balanced diet), as cooking removes so many nutrients. My butcher makes my mince up fresh each week, and i freeze it in fist sized meatballs. each bag contains - £6lb fresh beef steak mince, lambs lungs, ox heart, lamb/ox kidney, oxtail, chicken wings, diced chicken, lambs liver, washed prepared tripe all minced in his industrial mincer. He will occasionally add things like duck, turkey necks, pheasant carcass etc into the mix too. High in taurine, high in the better "pet" meats of things like heart, lung, kidney etc, high in bone content, and balanced! I will occasionally add pureed vegetables that are leftover from meals at home to the mince, but more often than not it comes AS IS. I am looking into either naturediet or a totally BARF diet for my pup at the moment. Have you considered feeding raw? rather than cooked?


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> All I can say is you must lead a very dull and boring life,
> 
> Can you answer this please, Can I ask why you keep dogs as pets then,surely that is expoilting dogs for your own selfish entertainment and enjoyment ?


I must admit that I thought I'd avoid posting here as opinion's seem to be frowned upon, but would like to say that, I don't box, hunt or fish and manage to have a quite exciting life and I believe the member in question stated his dogs were rescues, so he has "rescued" them and does not have them for entertainment.

I won't comment on Crufts or the activities of the protesters.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Actually i can kid of see where your coming from with that, although my views are nowhere near as extreeme. I do think there are some cheap and nasty pet foods out there, but i do believe there are some good ones, and for convenience and the assurance of a balanced diet, they are the right thing for most owners and pets. Some of my reasoning for the bad pet foods comes from the less than human grades given to the meat products, the high uses of grains (totally not natural), and the nasty preservatives, colours etc.
> 
> However my cats (and at the moment my pup - he wont eat the dried food) are fed on a raw diet. My cats have a good quality biscuit available at all times, and they have one large raw meal a day. Thats where we differ more though, as you mentioned that you cooked your foods? - raw is the most natural way to feed, and the easiest to get right (other than a commercially produced high quality balanced diet), as cooking removes so many nutrients. My butcher makes my mince up fresh each week, and i freeze it in fist sized meatballs. each bag contains - £6lb fresh beef steak mince, lambs lungs, ox heart, lamb/ox kidney, oxtail, chicken wings, diced chicken, lambs liver, washed prepared tripe all minced in his industrial mincer. He will occasionally add things like duck, turkey necks, pheasant carcass etc into the mix too. High in taurine, high in the better "pet" meats of things like heart, lung, kidney etc, high in bone content, and balanced! I will occasionally add pureed vegetables that are leftover from meals at home to the mince, but more often than not it comes AS IS. I am looking into either naturediet or a totally BARF diet for my pup at the moment. Have you considered feeding raw? rather than cooked?


in this country my choices are much more limited 2 of my dogs will eat raw but 2 will not and my cats will not touch anything uncooked (unless they catch it themselves) like you make up meals and freeze them for convenience. The other problem with raw food here is the heat and insects in the summer are night time temprature does not drop below 35. With both cooked and raw foods İ have to so much more hygiene conscious especially with one of my girls who was so starved she now tries to bury any food left.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Clueless - that thread you posted was both rude and unnecessary and by the way &#304; am an English 'plonker' and whatever you think of my belief systems &#304; have ever right to air them. &#304;f youy dont like what &#304; say DONT BOTHER READ&#304;NG!


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Oh dear, it seems that once again a thread has deteriorated to a slanging match and personal digs

What on earth happened to friendly debate. I give up


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> Clueless - that thread you posted was both rude and unnecessary and by the way İ am an English 'plonker' and whatever you think of my belief systems İ have ever right to air them. İf youy dont like what İ say DONT BOTHER READİNG!


What thread or do you mean post!!!! also I gave you bad rep and a comment for a reason. I do not like getting called SCUM from someone who does not even know my dogs or myself personally.
You aired your "belief system" and I aired my opinions


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> I read on another forum that a can of paint was thrown over a dog as it was between the car park and building yesterday. Apparently it was an agility dog, not a show dog. I guess it may have even been a crossbreed, too.


and these people say they want to protect animals, they should all be locked and the key thrown away they drive me mad there just what the publicity and aren't we giving it to them we are just playing in to there hands talking about them.

If people want to show their dogs, what has it got to do with anyone else, most breeders love their dogs and would never do anything to harm them, and a lot of the show dogs are family pets. There may be a few idiots around the dog world, but there is in any walk of live.

I'm glad the BBC has not covered this year, Crufts TV on-line is brilliant.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

clueless said:


> What thread or do you mean post!!!! also I gave you bad rep and a comment for a reason. I do not like getting called SCUM from someone who does not even know my dogs or myself personally.
> You aired your "belief system" and I aired my opinions


YOU REALLY DO LİVE UP TO YOUR NAME!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> YOU REALLY DO LİVE UP TO YOUR NAME!


Why Thank You------------Whatever LOL
Can I now ask you how you feel about people who have bought their Pets rather than their pets picking them whilst living on the Streets.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

clueless said:


> Why Thank You------------Whatever LOL
> Can I now ask you how you feel about people who have bought their Pets rather than their pets picking them whilst living on the Streets.


Whilst i am quite happy debating my views opinions with other members who are rational and reasonable. İ dont intend dicussing anything further on any subject with you.

I HAVE APOLOGİSED FOR THE USE OF THE WORD SCUM BOTH ON THİS THREAD AND OTHERS _ ALSO, TO THE ADMİNİSTRATOR WHO RAİSED İT WİTH ME: I DONT APOLOGİSE FOR MY VİEWS ABOUT CRUFTS OR THE FACT THAT İ MAY HAVE VİEWS THAT OTHERS DO NOT LİKE:

İf you review the posts İ have made you will notice that İ have avoided contraversial issues thats not to say İ always will. :cursing::cursing::cursing::cursing:


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2009)

clueless said:


> Why Thank You------------.


Hey don't worry about living up to your name clueless - your in good company - with me - some say I live up to my name also!!: can't think why like
lol
DT


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> İf i had to purchase my animals from the pet industry i would not keep amimals at all. '


Okay LOL. I will just make my mind up about your opinion going by your above post. Maybe you should not be on a Pet Forum where the majority of members have BOUGHT their Pets.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey don't worry about living up to your name clueless - your in good company - with me - some say I live up to my name also!!: can't think why like
> lol
> DT


Haha I just love my username and love the fact I can help members out as it gives them something to quote when struggling to answer questions LOL


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey don't worry about living up to your name clueless - your in good company - with me - some say I live up to my name also!!: can't think why like
> lol
> DT


Do İ need the permission of administrator to re post unpleasant messages?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> Do İ need the permission of administrator to re post unpleasant messages?


Read the rules Simon it may help ya


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I think it's about time this Thread was* LOCKED* I just don't see where it's going any more.


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

totally agree!


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