# Phenotypes



## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Just a quick question, if somebody refers to a kitten as a Burmese Phenotype what do they mean?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

It means it looks like a Burmese. So it could be an Asian variant or a "solid" Tonkinese or a 1/2 (or more) pedigree. The key is shorthair and two Cb genes.

Some examples

































Liz


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## broccoli (Jul 1, 2011)

phenotype is what shows

for example in humans the brown eye gene is dominant to the blue eyed gene
so someone with one of each will have brown eyes (phenotype)

they can 'carry' a blue eyed gene - and their children could have blue eyes if they get two blue eye genes


I dont know cat dominant and recessive colours/markings to give an example :lol:


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Thank you very much for the info, so many of the breeders seem to breed Burmese alongside Tonks/Asians/Burmilla that it gets a bit confusing. A lady I inquired with (but not the breeder I have chosen) said she had an Asian litter that was a Burmese phenotype but I really just want a regular, traditional Burmese. Is this kind of thing standard among the foreign breeds and the people that breed them?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Very common, and to give you an idea of how similar they are, here is my best Asian variant girl









Apart from her eye colour she is actually better Burmese type than any of my Burmese girls.

Burmese are very popular and the difficulty is that Asians are far less popular, hence many breeders try to emphasise how Burmese they are - and they are. They look exactly the same as the silver Burmese accepted by WCF and most have hardly any Chinchilla blood left in them.

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Burmese are very popular and the difficulty is that Asians are far less popular, hence many breeders try to emphasise how Burmese they are - and they are.


I think this shows the double standards which mean we breeders just can't win. Buyers want 'pure' version (as they see it) of the breed they've chosen but also want a cat bred for robust genetic health with as little inbreeding as possible. There comes a point with every breed where it simply isn't possible to do both.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Aurelie said:


> Thank you very much for the info, so many of the breeders seem to breed Burmese alongside Tonks/Asians/Burmilla that it gets a bit confusing. A lady I inquired with (but not the breeder I have chosen) said she had an Asian litter that was a Burmese phenotype but I really just want a regular, traditional Burmese. Is this kind of thing standard among the foreign breeds and the people that breed them?


Asians have come from an accidental cross between a Chincilla (Persian) and a Burmese. They come in just about any colour except white all over, any pattern except pointed (Siamese), and never have white. The type (shape) is like a Burmese, but the kittens that pop up from time to time that are a Burmese colour can't be shown - they can be used in breeding and are just as good as pets as any Burmese. There is also a semi-longhair version, the Tiffanie.

The few Asian breeders I know all started out breeding Burmese and it's a very natural progression. The kittens the lady had apart from the registration would have been exactly what you are looking for.

Burmilla is a type of Asian, as is a Bombay.

The Asian Group Cat Society (UK) - GCCF Affiliated Club catering for the Asian breed group.
http://www.gccfcats.org/regpols/asianregpol.pdf
Asian Group Breed Advisory Committee

"The Asian Group is the name used for cats of Burmese type, but non-Burmese coat colour, pattern or length."

I had a caramel self Asian quite a few years ago, and he came with a 5-generation pedigree and every cat 'way back' was either a Burmese or a Chincilla. He was also the most delightful cat who loved playing with small children!

Burmese are still an allowed breed in an Asian's pedigree, so someone with a Burmese stud can use him with both Burmese and Asian girls.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

havoc said:


> I think this shows the double standards which mean we breeders just can't win. Buyers want 'pure' version (as they see it) of the breed they've chosen but also want a cat bred for robust genetic health with as little inbreeding as possible. There comes a point with every breed where it simply isn't possible to do both.


Very true!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> Burmese are still an allowed breed in an Asian's pedigree, so someone with a Burmese stud can use him with both Burmese and Asian girls.


And indeed we do, and one fo the problems this brings is that the more you keep going back to Burmese, the less silver and full expression and longhair you have, but you try persuading the shorthair breeders to actually use Asian studs rather than Burmese, it really is an uphill struggle. And yes I am guilty myself, I have a Tiffanie girl who is rather a miserable so and so as far as other cats are concerned and won't live happily in the house or with any boy except my Burmese boy so of course she has his kittens. However it turns out now that she carries the gene for hypokalemia so her breeding days are numbered.

Early on, one set of breeders took the Burmilla in another direction and so it is now that the FIFe Burmilla is quite different from the GCCF version - I have one FIFe boy whom I hope to breed from soon. He is very much gentler and quieter than my GCCF Asians.

To further complicate matters, in Australia they went down the route of breeding Tiffanies back to Chinchillas and ended up with an Australian Tiffanie that is rather like an early Chinchilla. Then on the continent of Europe they came up with Burmese in different colours and patterns from mating with Singapuras. It all gets very complicated!

Liz


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

havoc said:


> I think this shows the double standards which mean we breeders just can't win. Buyers want 'pure' version (as they see it) of the breed they've chosen but also want a cat bred for robust genetic health with as little inbreeding as possible. There comes a point with every breed where it simply isn't possible to do both.


I agree with you that its a double standard and it must be frustrating for breeders, however as a buyer it can feel like a bit of a minefield.

I have done my breed research, met some examples of the breed and decided that that is the one for me. A very nice, respectable breeder has said she had Asians that are Burmese phenotypes and I had no idea what that meant.

My initial thoughts were that the main reason for looking for a Burmese was the personality, so if the characteristics that the breed is known for are not there but it just looks like one then thats not what I was hoping for. Obviously with that does come the issue that I do want a healthy cat with good bloodlines and this cannot be acheived with constant inbreeding.

It just comes down to knowledge, luckily it makes interesting reading and now that it has been explained to me it makes perfect sense and my red flags have gone down. But to a lot of people, who are not interested in looking further than 'I want one of those', (and thats not a terrible way to be) its all a bit confusing.


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Asians have come from an accidental cross between a Chincilla (Persian) and a Burmese. They come in just about any colour except white all over, any pattern except pointed (Siamese), and never have white. The type (shape) is like a Burmese, but the kittens that pop up from time to time that are a Burmese colour can't be shown - they can be used in breeding and are just as good as pets as any Burmese. There is also a semi-longhair version, the Tiffanie.
> 
> The few Asian breeders I know all started out breeding Burmese and it's a very natural progression. The kittens the lady had apart from the registration would have been exactly what you are looking for.
> 
> ...


Thank you, thats very helpful.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The new gene test is very good news for Burmese & Asian breeders, and all the Asian cats I've met have had lovely personalities. Well the neutered girl I had was a bit grumpy with the other cats, but she was delightful with me. The neutered boy was brilliant with children and cats, as well as grown-ups.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> luckily it makes interesting reading and now that it has been explained to me it makes perfect sense and my red flags have gone down


I thought they might 
As it happens, in this case you had a breeder who was completely honest and it understandably raised red flags. Yeah, it can be frustrating.

The GCCF are requiring every breed to nominate a permitted outcross but I'll bet very few breeders will bother outcrossing. When breeders say their motives are to 'improve' the breed they often mean to fix or concentrate a type in their own lines rather than improve the genetic health of the breed in general. It takes a very confident and/or established breeder to do anything different. You only have to look to the dog world and that breeder of Dalmations who had such a fight with the KC.


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