# dog training cheshire area - nightmare!



## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

first of all
im really struggling with my giant pup, just simply because i dont know what to do, ive read all the books, watched the tv stuff, read forums and so on and there are so many different methods of doing things, hes having problems with submissive urination, out of control, wont come stay or sit, gets out of control starts darting around, chewing and stealing stuff, jumping up on kitchen work surfaces, knocking the baby over, just basically out of control, and its hard when you have a baby and a partner who is timid and scared of him already, he must weigh over 25kg now at 16 weeks ish.

first of all i paid £50quid for a trainer to come out, spend 2 hrs, first 30 mins trying to sell me stuff, last 30 mins reading out things that were printed from the internet..the most disorganised person i have come across, on the phone it was umm arr eerr welll errmm ill call you back at least she turned up i guess?? - that person i found from the apdt website, me and my partner both thought it was useless, we learned the 'leave it' game which our dog knows very well, however he wont leave anything else when the game is not in motion, no matter how much you try with different variations of the game.

next, paid 65£ to join the local club for training, honestly this was the biggest shambles, it felt like we just stood there for an hr and wasted our time, way too many dogs around 12 i think, absolutely nothing learned, we just decided that it was ok for the social aspect in a guarded environment, but more money we wouldnt have spent.

also
i had found someone else from the web who has a website, in the local area and claims to be a trainer, had a few emails with her she seemed to be very confident and made arrangements promptly to come and meet us and have some training. She did not turn up and after a few emails got a reply via email with her number, and an excuse of the car having broken down, we called the number got no reply so left another email, eventually we tried to make another arrangement we called her and she rang back, made an arrangement for Sunday this morning over the phone at 11. She didnt turn up, no phonecall, no email, unbelievable people run a business this way.

were both sick and tired and struggling with the situation, love the dog, just dont love the stress, I think i have managed to sort out the submissive urination problem from reading and how i approach him, he hasnt done it today so it seems to be working, but how do you find someone reliable? the first person had all the letters after her name...and??????????????? just too expensive to keep trying out different people who claim to know what they are doing and dont seem to have a clue, ie you leave feeling you learned nothing new.

I will add the names of the person who didnt show up later because simply not showing up is unacceptable, i think naming and shaming the first person is not right because its our personal opinion


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

It is possible that your pup senses that you are both stressed and one of you is afraid of him; Kilo is very good at sensing my moods and if he comes across someone that is afraid of him he acts differently. I know it is extremely difficult to change the way you are both feeling, but try to project an aura of calm around him, especially when he has the puppy crazies and don't raise your voice; when training him try to have an air of authority - I have found that tome of voice and especially body language make an immense difference. When he achieves whatever it was you were after, go mad with praise and make it fun for him...the more fun he is having, the more he will want to please you.

For those out of control moments I have found that by putting Kilo in his crate (with a treat and toy, so not a punishment) just for up to ten minutes works wonders. 9 times out of 10 he sleeps as the cause of any craziness is usually being overtired / overstimulated. If he doesn't fall asleep, he comes back out much calmer.

It does sound as if you have had terrible luck with trainers; I have never tried to find one beyond puppy classes bu word of mouth is usually a reliable way - maybe ask at your vets or someone on here might live close to you.

Maybe if you are more specific about your problems, some of the very knowledgeable forum members will be able to advise you


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Dogless said:


> It is possible that your pup senses that you are both stressed and one of you is afraid of him; Kilo is very good at sensing my moods and if he comes across someone that is afraid of him he acts differently. I know it is extremely difficult to change the way you are both feeling, but try to project an aura of calm around him, especially when he has the puppy crazies and don't raise your voice; when training him try to have an air of authority - I have found that tome of voice and especially body language make an immense difference. When he achieves whatever it was you were after, go mad with praise and make it fun for him...the more fun he is having, the more he will want to please you.
> 
> For those out of control moments I have found that by putting Kilo in his crate (with a treat and toy, so not a punishment) just for up to ten minutes works wonders. 9 times out of 10 he sleeps as the cause of any craziness is usually being overtired / overstimulated. If he doesn't fall asleep, he comes back out much calmer.
> 
> ...


I agree with Dogless. Is this the St Bernard again? I know how hard it is, but you really do need to be calm around a giant puppy. How often is he walked? You can't, obviously, do too much with him at his age but a few walks per day should calm him down a bit. Also, what are you feeding him? Something low in protein might help. Mine are on Barking Heads which has no additives at all, and they do a puppy range.

The first "trainer" you had out sounds very much like the one who I had out when Ferdie was about ten months to try to overcome his fear of the car. Far more interested in selling me things and didn't know one end of a dog from the other. I was lucky enough to be recommended to another lady who was great. Whereabouts are you?

I think this dog needs proper training from the very beginning, instead of simply trying to sort out the individual problems. I don't mean back to toilet training and stuff, but if he is urinating then he is probably scared. If your partner is scared the dog can either go two ways: he can be scared as well but not know why, or he could take advantage. Being this breed (if I am right) he is likely to be scared.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I agree with Dogless. Is this the St Bernard again? I know how hard it is, but you really do need to be calm around a giant puppy. How often is he walked? You can't, obviously, do too much with him at his age but a few walks per day should calm him down a bit. Also, what are you feeding him? Something low in protein might help. Mine are on Barking Heads which has no additives at all, and they do a puppy range.
> 
> The first "trainer" you had out sounds very much like the one who I had out when Ferdie was about ten months to try to overcome his fear of the car. Far more interested in selling me things and didn't know one end of a dog from the other. I was lucky enough to be recommended to another lady who was great. Whereabouts are you?
> 
> I think this dog needs proper training from the very beginning, instead of simply trying to sort out the individual problems. I don't mean back to toilet training and stuff, but if he is urinating then he is probably scared. If your partner is scared the dog can either go two ways: he can be scared as well but not know why, or he could take advantage. Being this breed (if I am right) he is likely to be scared.


Kilo is on BH puppy and does very well on it; I try not to give him anything sugary or full of additives; I really believe that it makes a difference.

I also agree that training from the beginning is wise if you are not feeling confident; I don't have a giant puppy, but Kilo is only slightly lighter than yours at 21kg and 17 weeks...he is a real handful. I am just fortunate to devote all my time to him as I do not have children and my husband is away for the majority of the time.

Kilo definately takes advantage of anyone who is scared or unsure; he plays up enormously - although it does sound as though your pup may be scared but not sure why as Newfiesmum said above. If he is knocking your child over already I would be concerned about unintentional injury and also your child becoming afraid of the pup too. I do not subscribe to the dominance thing in that all dogs are trying to gain supremacy but I do believe they are clever enough to take advantage of a situation. I also firmly believe that they need structure and consistently enforced rules so that they know what is expected of them which can give a feeling of security.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Here is a list of Kennel Club Good Citizens trainers. Go to a class without your dog and watch them before you pay any money.
Dog Training Clubs in Cheshire - The Kennel Club


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## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

hi all, thanks for the messages, the person from today still didnt ring or email so pretty peed off about that! havent got details on me to post though.

Yes the first person was pretty much just like that, more interested in selling me stuff than actually doing anything.

the food the breeders put me on is purina pro plan puppy robust they suggested i stayed on it because they had had the best results with it so i have just followed what they say...everyone ive met has suggested something totally different ie they all have their own opinions..so ive just stuck with what the breeders recommended, does anyone have bad experience with this brand?

i definitely do need some help and a decent trainer, i dont mind paying if i get the right training so any direction is more than welcome, would prefer people only recommend what they have experienced because opinions...well everyone has one, no offense  

thanks


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## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Here is a list of Kennel Club Good Citizens trainers. Go to a class without your dog and watch them before you pay any money.
> Dog Training Clubs in Cheshire - The Kennel Club


interesting that one of the people i mentioned is on there! so shows realy that either i dont have a clue or being on the list is kinda meaningless


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't have any experience with this food, but it is a fact that puppy food contains a higher protein level than adult food. It may be worth putting him on to a Junior or even an adult food; he is a big boy so could probably take it. Look at the ingredients, see what it contains. Barking Heads adult salmon and potato which is what I use is just that, fish and potatoes. Fish4dogs is also good. First I would take him off the puppy food, though do it gradually.

You already have the Kennel Club list, also try for someone off this site:

Becoming a Member | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

The one who has not turned up and not got back to you is taking the pee. If I cannot get to a pupil, or even if I am going to be a bit late, I always ring or text. That is, as you say, no way to run a business and does not inspire you with confidence. I would not bother with her any more.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

jason4656 said:


> interesting that one of the people i mentioned is on there! so shows realy that either i dont have a clue or being on the list is kinda meaningless


The people on the site I gave you should be the best. They have all got degree level animal behaviour, but of course hands on practical is a different matter. I wish you were nearer; I could put you on to the wonderful lady who not only persuaded Ferdie that the car was not a scary place, but would not accept payment the first time she came because she could not get him to go in.


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## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

will give it a shot thanks, see if i can find one thats within reasonable distance


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## Statler (Jan 3, 2011)

ask a daft question but isnt your breeder able to offer assistance and support, be it paid or otherwise?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Statler said:


> ask a daft question but isnt your breeder able to offer assistance and support, be it paid or otherwise?


Not a daft question. Some breeders are dead keen to help out, others don't want to know. Ferdie and Joshua came from the same breeder, and they were very keen to keep in touch with Ferdie. Of course he was a bit older when we got him so they had got attached, and I had never had a newfie before, but still since I got Joshua they have not even asked how he is. Even when I told them about his early arthritis, they were not that interested and have never once asked how he is.

Might be worth a try for Jason though.


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## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

the breeders are great have spent many hrs on phone with me but live a long way away so not really able to help, thanks


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## nykea (Jan 27, 2011)

Hi, I would be scared of putting a giant puppy on junior or adult food too early. He's still got loads of growing to do, and that protein lack might cause really bad problems later  
I don't envy you, I had a similar problem with finding a good trainer. I don't really have problems with my boy, but wanted to find a place where I could train in front of other dogs, which he likes a bit too much. One of the "trainers" from the KC list was an absolute nightmare. But if I can suggest something, look for a better one, but still go to the group thing until you find it. And just do your thing, what you read in the internet and books. It's always better to go out and see what other people do, also the dog will learn to concentrate more on you.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Oscar was on Purina when i got him and i found his slightly more "manic" behaviours did calm down when i took him off it, i would definately recimmend a gradual food change for a start 

Is there a possibility of over stimulation here  Puppies can often be at their most unruly when they are overtired and some "time out" can work wonders.

This does all sound like normal puppy behaviour but is amplified by his size and i can understand your frustrations. 

The Perfect Puppy book by Gwen Bailey is a great read and i agree never sign up to a puppy class that you havent been and checked out first.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

At sixteen weeks he could well be on a junior food. Check the ingredients, make sure there are no cereals or fillers. Barking Heads do a puppy and junior range I think, so do fish4dogs.


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## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

all my thinking on the food thing relates more to him being healthy than his behaviour, the breeders suggested this is the best food for a long healthy life and i think thats more important than my problems....even if it means eventually i cant keep him..i guess i just have a fear of changing it.

i will try someone else i guess

the person who messed me about the most was Rachel Ward - w w w. h e l p m y p u p. c o. u k (link removed, dont wanna be boosting anyones links)

quite scary how the website actually looks like they may well look to help people like me, however treatment as above is pretty dismal eh


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Jason, food and behaviour are linked. Why is behavioural health considered less important than physiological health?

If the food you are feeding your dog is having contributing to behavioural issues than changing it is looking out for your dog's lifelong health.

I am sorry that you have been let down by trainers. If any are certified/assessed/members of professional organisations please complain to the organisation and log a written complaint with the trainer/s. Sometimes feedback is all people need to improve their standard of work but other times..... 

I have a blog series on teaching and understanding teaching calm behaviour and self control. It will take a structured approach so be prepared!!
Crazy Canines | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

This is a month long, day by day and step by step training program:
TYD Month | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

Best of luck


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## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

excellent stuff thank you, lots of good info on there, bit information overload though, think i would need a few days for day 1, dont know anyone that has time to do that all in a day, why when people talk about dog training do they say things like 'just' ....'just' when talking about getting a dog to do something can be taking 10-20 mins repeating yourself to the point of frustration or just not getting anywhere at all, dog training is all written in a way that makes u think wow thats good.. but in practice its alot different!

as for the food, as ive said, the only people i can trust are the breeders, they told me to stick with this food, anyone can say anything on a website, id be changing foods weekly if i listened to them all...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jason4656 said:


> the food the breeders put [my pup] on is *purina pro plan puppy robust* they suggested i [stay] on it


Ingredients:
*Chicken* (18%), *wheat, corn gluten*, *dehydrated poultry proteins*, *corn, rice* (7%), *animal fat*, *vegetable fibre*, autolysate, *beet pulp*, *dehydrated fish protein*, *powdered egg*, calcium phosphate, *fish oil*, potassium chloride, sodium chloride, minerals, *colostrum*, L-lysine, DL-methionine
----------------------------------------------

CEREALS: wheat, corn [difficult for dogs to digest and not well-absorbed], 
rice [low protein, poor nutrition for dogs], veg-fibre - WHAT vegetable? and it's a filler; 
beet-pulp: byproduct, another filler, bulks the stool.

*proteins* include chicken - fine; *poultry* protein, NOT fine: species should be listed: goose, duck, turkey? - 
fish protein [spp?], egg [spp?], colostrum [spp?]. *way too vague for good quality* - this bag could be 
duck-protein and mackerel, the next one could be turkey and whiting. this exposes the dog to many proteins, 
but we do not know *what they are - * if he later develops an allergy [1 in 5 dogs has one or more food 
allergies - prime-time for affected symptoms is 18-MO to 2-YO], finding a novel protein will be extremely difficult.

*fats* include 'animal fat' - WAY too-vague, and possibly reprocessed waste 
[globs of chicken-skin, etc, heated, fat extracted and cooled] and fish-oil - No species for either. 
*the less information the maker gives, the easier it is to substitute what is cheap this week - or change ratios, 
with more corn in this bag and more wheat in the next batch, and more rice in another.*

Additives:
Vitamin A (15.000 IU/kg), vitamin D3 (750 IU/kg), 
vitamin E (170 mg/kg), vitamin C [L-ascorbic acid] (70 mg/kg), 
taurin (1000 mg/kg), L-carnitin (200 mg/kg), 
copper [copper sulphate] (12 mg/kg).

With antioxidants: (EG additives): 
Vitamin quality guaranteed until the best before date.

Analysis
fiber 2 %
ash 7.5 %
calcium 1.2 %
fat 15 % <=== too high
phosphorus 1%
protein 29 % <=== too high

giant-breed pups can be fed adult-formula dog food as early as 12-weeks without worry - 
in fact *slower growth is better growth - * a long ramp is better than a steep mountain. 
the pup will still get there, and leaner is better than plump for young, soft, cartilaginous joints.


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## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

hi, thanks for that, i totally understand all that stuff, i work in sports nutrition so reading ingredient labels and understand 'human' protein/ macro rartios is 2nd nature to me, just never really thought about it too much with my dog.

the thing is, i have been reading forums for many years and i know how many opinions you get, where as the breeders like i said are the only people i know who havent read what they think is good, they have real life reared 8 fully grown st bernards and a fair few pups...they have tried and tested and found the most healthy dogs from their experience, i am sure thats come at the cost of many lives too during the process of learning.

what are the recommended daily amouunts of protein/carbs/fats for a dog and at what ages do they change (giant breed)?

we have talked about producing our own foods actually because i have access to and sell all raw materials inc colostrum, protein, all different types of carbs and fats so i could very easily provide the ingredients at whatever ratio was required, do u think this would be a better way to go?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jason, you may not realise it, but breeders have a contract with these feed companies and will feed within reason, the best deal. My dogs are giant breed, but they were raised (as per breeder recommendation for Ferdie) on Royal Canin giant breed, baby, puppy, and junior. When I bought Joshua from the same breeder, they had changed to something else. I do not remember what as I had already bought Royal Canin. Since discovering about ingredients, that is not the best either but my two did very well on it whilst they were growing. Joshua, however, came off it at about 8 months.

As Tripod said, the food does have a lot to do with behaviour and behaviour has a lot to do with health. Not all foods will suit all dogs, no matter what they were started off on.

What about going on to a junior food to start with? Probably less protein than the puppy, but you should be thinking a bit about this and looking carefully at the ingredients.

I am also not sure it is a good idea to put the name of this trainer on here.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I can completely understand what you say about the food and Purina isn't the worst food your dog could be on however from being on here i have noticed quite a few cases of very hyper puppies on it and if you are able to disect the ingredients then do take a look at the Barking Heads food 

Dry Dog Food | Best Additive free Dogs Food

Obviously you trust your breeders judgement so maybe print off the ingredients list of both foods and discuss a possible change with your breeder highlighting that your puppy does seem super hyper and the Barking Heads list of ingredients on paper is better.

Having said that puppies are mad wee things and nothing quite prepares you for the onslaught of a new pup and that is magnified with a large breed.

I found when i was at the end of my tether with Oscar it helped to write a list of the issues in order of priority and then tackle the things one at a time.

If you have specific problems then a seperate thread for each under Training and Behaviour on here will get you a wealth of suggestions and help then its a case (and i cant stress this enough) of chosing ONE method that you feel suits you best and sticking with it rather than throwing 5 or 6 different solutions at the problem .

Hope this helps


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Have you been to puppy classes? I would forget the tv shows, books are fine, but it is much better to go to classes where they will teach you how to handle it.

Have a look here.

Local Dog Trainers in Cheshire UK


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## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

lol thanks, 2 things, i tried the classes but how far do you go paying for more and more when its unsuitable..

also i did name the trainer who let me down earlier and posted the website so other people can be aware


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Hi again Jason, I also notice that you say you do things for 10 - 20 minutes to the point of frustration when you do some training. I am certainly no expert but have found that if Kilo doesn't get something on the first couple of tries I end that session (may only have been 2 mins) on a positive note ie something he can do, then have a play or another distracting activity THEN try again....he gets frustrated too and certainly picks up when I feel like that and then all training value is lost.

Instead of mammoth sessions, I do loads of very short (5 mins or so) sessions throughout the day and also train opportunistically ie if we need to cross a road it requires a 'sit' and a 'wait', if I am going to play with Kilo it requires something each time e.g., a 'down' before he gets the toy. In other words, he works for everything he gets so that it becomes natural to him.

Hope that makes some sense


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## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

looking at the BH puppy food, it has same protein higher fat than is already acceptable according to leashedforlife's post

Protein 28%, Fat 18%

although i do admit the list of ingredients looks better also including chondoitin and msm which are good for joints, but doesnt have colostrum which is good for growth, its also more expensive and i think purina is already too expensive, its just all a big marketing game same as the industry i work in


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## jason4656 (Jan 21, 2011)

hi thanks, i didnt mean i literally do that, im just pointing out that writing about how to do something, using the words 'just' do this or that with no explanations of what to do if your dog doesnt play ball is not best helpful to me in this situation


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Sorry Jason I didn't read all the posts or you first. If you were unhappy with the trainer from the apdt, and felt they spent half the time (you were paying for) selling you stuff, then I would contact the apdt to report them (or at least give feedback). 

Unfortunately, many claim to be trainers and the www does make it easy to for people to advertise and appear to be good trainers. I would call a few and talk to them so you get a feel. You could also ask your vet for recommendations.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

jason4656 said:


> hi thanks, i didnt mean i literally do that, im just pointing out that writing about how to do something, using the words 'just' do this or that with no explanations of what to do if your dog doesnt play ball is not best helpful to me in this situation


I think if your dog doesn't play ball (and I have a very independent wilful puppy who can be hard work!!) you just have to persevere in finding out exactly how his mind works. Not particularly easy.

I can practically hear Kilo thinking 'so what's in it for me then?' when we do things


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Unfortunately popular belief suggests that the analysis of nutrients are the thing to base food choices on - this is not so. Protein levels have in very few studies shown to have an impact on aggression etc. in dogs (and other animals) but these studies were not particularly well carried out IMO. There was, for example, no testing protein types, sources or qualities. So this is a glaring misstep in sceintific understanding of the activity of protein in the body.
But we do know that certain amino acids help greatly in the body's use of serotonin which is a neuro-transmitter that helps among other things learning, concentration, impulsivity.

Protein quality is the most important thing. Protein source should be listed in teh top three ingredients, ideally in 'meat' form and meal form. The protein source should be from a named species e.g. chicken meal, chicken etc.

The likes of chondrotin added to foods are added in such small amounts that you would have to greatly overfeed the dog for him to benefit from the levels of supplementation in the food. If you are concerned about these supplemenetary addidtives add them to the dog's diet in the form of a good supplement instead. These supplements are put on the label of dog foods so as to sell the food rather than offer great feeding for your dog.

Plus feeding is not breed specific only. There are lots of reasons that certain breed people feed certain diets, tradition being a lot to do with IME. Diet is a contributor to life long health not the be all and end all. Narrow down a food on quality first, then on breed/lifestyle suitability and then do food trials to see how it suits your individual dog. If you like you can message me an e-mail address and i will send you a handout I use for students on choosing and analysing a great food for your dog and being cynical about food labels!

Other than diet please review some of the links and info given so far as regards training, particularly self control. Your puppy is a teenager and is also going to be giant so thorough work on this now is urgent.


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