# Breeding Regulations/Restrictions/Laws



## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

One thing I have never understood is why there isnt any sort of laws or regulations regarding the breeding of cats (or any animal). 

I'm sure most of you understand why there is a need, all you have to do is look at rescue center web pages to see the amount of cats need a home. Most of these are moggies that have been bred for absolutely rediculous reasons such as "All females should have at least one litter" or "Kittens are soooo cute". 

If I had my way lol I would bring in fines for those breeding from unhealth tested cats. IE you would need all documentation for both the mother and father proving that they have had the necessary health tests etc otherwise you recieve a fine of £XXX. 

What do you think needs to be done? If anything? 

I may get frowned upon for making this thread as I have never owned a cat, let alone bred from one but even I know its stupid, dangerous and can even be considered cruel to breed moggies with unknown tom cats.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I would to see regulations brought in for breeding any animal. Every person breeding their animal would need a licence and all necessary health tests. But it would be difficult to police and probably wouldn't stop the idiots who just want one litter out of Fluffy because she wants to be a mum


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

As I'm currently too tired to articulate myself properly at the moment, I'm just going to tell you to get off your freaking high horse. I'll give a proper reply on tuesday if I haven't been banned. G'night.


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## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

Gratch said:


> As I'm currently too tired to articulate myself properly at the moment, I'm just going to tell you to get off your freaking high horse. I'll give a proper reply on tuesday if I haven't been banned. G'night.


That was a bit random... I think, unless of course you're one of those who has got a pregnant moggie??

I dont tend to pay attention to usernames, certainly where new members are concerned so if I've slated you in another thread I dont remember doing so.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Gratch: Can't wait to see the reasons why everyone should be allowed to breed from their unhealthy cats/animals without any repercussions! Hope you realise Purple Crow doesn't mean all breeding should stop, just should make it harder for bad breeding to happen.
I would love to see some regulations in place. Great post.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Gratch said:


> As I'm currently too tired to articulate myself properly at the moment, I'm just going to tell you to get off your freaking high horse. I'll give a proper reply on tuesday if I haven't been banned. G'night.


NO need to speak to anyone like this


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## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

Gratch said:


> As I'm currently too tired to articulate myself properly at the moment, I'm just going to tell you to get off your freaking high horse. I'll give a proper reply on tuesday if I haven't been banned. G'night.


Thanks, you really put your point across and in such a lovely manner too!

This thread is to discuss what laws/relagulations people believe should be brought in (or not), discussions usually involve lots of different opinions, which therefore means not everyone will agree.

Just because my opinion is different to yours doesnt mean I'm right, nor am I on a "high horse". I highly doubt anyone will take your posts seriously (within this thread at least) after that pointless, frankly aggressive, post. I do hope you get treatment for the bullet hole in your foot.

Happy Valentines Day to you sweetie


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I think that at a minimum:

kittens to go to new homes Fully vacd and wormed litter trained, weaned with a vets card at *12*weeks of age, no earlier, with a kitten pack/sample of food etc whether its a moggie or a cross.

I think that this will hopefully put people off of having 'acidental litters' and 'one litter' 'fluffy kittens' etc and bring the popluation down, as alot of them see it as extra money and 'get rid' of kittens at 5-8weeks before it becomes to expensive to feed/do other things for them.

Or better yet to stop these 'accidents' neuter your kittens at 5-6months old! problem solved!

But then who is policing this? maybe selling sites could put things on there, or a place where people can report kittens being sold under a certain age? I dont know really.

Just makes me raelly sad/angry, I had someone call me about using my boy as a stud, a ragdoll, when I asked if she was HCM tested they said 'whats that then never heard of it?'  I said 'is she fiv/felv (HIV / lukemia)tested' again 'sorry no idea what that is either'  so I said 'whats her pedigree? 'no idea love she has no papers but im sure she is a pedigree ragdoll the lady said she was who i got her from' 

I said that no reputable breeder would accept that cat without the health tests but they could find someone who doesnt give a toss happy to take their money, they said they would keep looking!!! 

WHY do they want to breed from that cat? It isnt improving or furthering a breed? if they are interested why not buy a cat on active and do it all properly? I hear that alot the answer normally is 'but i dont want to be a breeder just want a few litters of kittens' 'i think she will make a good mum' 'just want 1litter than spay her' 'shes cute i want one just like her' or 'I fancy getting some money back on what I paid for my kitten' do they realise that they wont even break even, Oh thats only if its done properly, or they need £700 for a c-section, it doesnt alway go plain sailing, far from it  

WELL to me That is breeding! do it properly or dont do it at all! :frown2: it isnt a game or something to look lightly upon you are bringing a liv
fe into the world, some people just do not get it


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I dont think Moggie/mixed breed cat breeding should be completely stopped. Some people just want your an average cat without rescuing.

I dont know much about breeding so am not sure about rules. I do believe in health testing tho.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't think moggie breeding should be stopped but I think it should be regulated as well. So they're not bred too young, don't have too many litters and are kept in good conditions and are healthy before being bred


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I don't think moggie breeding should be stopped but I think it should be regulated as well. So they're not bred too young, don't have too many litters and are kept in good conditions and are healthy before being bred


You said it better then me.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

it's a nice idea but you would never ever enforce it. The only people who would really be hurt by legislation would be breeders who do things properly, because you can guarantee there will be rules in there that we won't like - licensing, perhaps, maximum number of queens, perhaps.

Liz


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Great post purplecrow, cat breeding should have to fall under the same jurisdiction as dog breeding ... naively I thought it did?

That should apply to those breeding moggies to sell :thumbup:
Cat breeding is quite a little "cottage industry" now for many ... It shocks and saddens me that so many people are happy to let their in season cat roam, to be chased and mated by any marauding Tom Cat that happens to be in the area, ignorant or just uncaring that he may be passing on life threatening disease ... Who wants to buy kittens form a poor litter like that  

Rep for you and well deserved :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I agree with the sentiment, but if we're talking about regulating the breeding of non-pedigrees and health testing, what are they going to be health tested for? Okay, at a minimum, FeLV and FIV which are the basic pre-mating tests for pedigree cats but there are myriad, countless other (genetically) inherited conditions which cause ill-health and congenital defects. Those are easier to pinpoint and test for in many cases with pedigree cats for obvious reasons but it would be nigh on impossible with a moggy where, in 99% of cases, their ancestry is completely unknown.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I agree with the sentiment, but if we're talking about regulating the breeding of non-pedigrees and health testing, what are they going to be health tested for? Okay, at a minimum, FeLV and FIV which are the basic pre-mating tests for pedigree cats but there are myriad, countless other (genetically) inherited conditions which cause ill-health and congenital defects. Those are easier to pinpoint and test for in many cases with pedigree cats for obvious reasons but it would be nigh on impossible with a moggy where, in 99% of cases, their ancestry is completely unknown.


I think realistically all you could test moggies for would be the FeLV and FIV test, anything else? A general health check by vet prior to mating would be essential too.

Another good prerequisite that everyone wanting to breed a litter of moggies should spend a week working at a cat rescue centre/charity, because that alas is where some of their kittens are highly likely to end up, at some point, as adults.

(This of course applies to pedigree cat breeders too unfortunately.)

It horrifies me how many owners seem to have no understanding that allowing their supposedly much loved cats to mate with any male cat that happens to be hanging around thier house, could KILL their girl. These Tom cats may be feral and at HIGH risk of carrying lethal disease. Of course even domesticated Toms can have it too ...

They should be ashamed ... And educate themselves, or don't they care


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> It horrifies me how many owners seem to have no understanding that allowing their supposedly much loved cats to mate with any male cat that happens to be hanging around thier house, could KILL their girl. These Tom cats may be feral and at HIGH risk of carrying lethal disease.


Yes they are, but the risk of passing it on by mating is very close to zero.

Liz


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes they are, but the risk of passing it on by mating is very close to zero.
> 
> Liz


Do you ensure the studs you use for breeding are FIV Felv free


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Do you ensure the studs you use for breeding are FIV Felv free


No, I use my own and don't test first. I do vaccinate everyone against FeLV. If I used someone else's stud and they insisted on blood tests for my girl, I would certainly expect to see a recent blood test for their boy.

Liz


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> No, I use my own and don't test first. I do vaccinate everyone against FeLV. If I used someone else's stud and they insisted on blood tests for my girl, I would certainly expect to see a recent blood test for their boy.
> 
> Liz


So you obviously think it is important and even if you think it is low risk, something that must be done for the health of the cats concerned.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> So you obviously think it is important and even if you think it is low risk, something that must be done for the health of the cats concerned.


Honestly the risk of catching FIV from mating is miniscule - last time I checked the studies, there was not one single known case of it. Don't forget that the overwhelming majority of moggies who are allowed to breed are simply let out, and yet the high risk group for FIV is free ranging TOMS, not free ranging entire cats generally. As for FeLV, I have always vaccinated my cats against this and would recommend that everyone does so, but it isn't something that is generally passed on by mating, but by sharing of food and water bowls.

Liz


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Honestly the risk of catching FIV from mating is miniscule - last time I checked the studies, there was not one single known case of it. Don't forget that the overwhelming majority of moggies who are allowed to breed are simply let out, and yet the high risk group for FIV is free ranging TOMS, not free ranging entire cats generally. As for FeLV, I have always vaccinated my cats against this and would recommend that everyone does so, but it isn't something that is generally passed on by mating, but by sharing of food and water bowls.
> 
> Liz


I know rescue friends have taken in a couple of pregnant queens recently who tested FIV positive, so this puzzles me  They weren't feral by any means and unlikely to be from same home given area found. Both were spayed and eventually re-homed as house cats on long term foster. They don't release feral cats which are infected, sad but I can understand why ...

Strange ... I will ask my friends for more info and what vet told them.


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## baby2love (Apr 7, 2009)

great thread and well worth reading. 
I have often wondered about the licence route and think something should be in place to control the amount of bad breeding. : :nono:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have often wondered about the licence route


I think dog breeding does require a form of licensing once a breeder has more than so many breeding dogs or litters per year - I'm not sure of the details.

I'd like it to be illegal to sell any kitten unless the seller has paid for a licence to do so. I'd see it more like buying the dog licence used to be rather than involving checks. It could be sold over the counter at vets and they'd get to keep a cut.

Anyone whose cat has that accidental litter can then either pay up for a licence to sell the kittens or they have to give them away. I'd put the (yearly) fee at a figure that would make it very attractive to have a pet cat neutered instead - somewhere around £100 maybe.

It wouldn't be so onerous for any cat owner to pop into their vet would it? Presumably all cat lovers do visit a vet anyway for yearly health checks, boosters, wormers, flea treatments........ it's not as if anyone with kittens to sell would be forced to go anywhere they wouldn't be going anyway.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I know rescue friends have taken in a couple of pregnant queens recently who tested FIV positive, so this puzzles me


Word is that FIV is on the rise. Could be that routine testing is on the rise of course but there does seem to be a worrying trend.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

havoc;2461270
I'd like it to be illegal to sell any kitten unless the seller has paid for a licence to do so. I'd see it more like buying the dog licence used to be rather than involving checks. It could be sold over the counter at vets and they'd get to keep a cut.
Anyone whose cat has that accidental litter can then either pay up for a licence to sell the kittens or they have to give them away. I'd put the (yearly) fee at a figure that would make it very attractive to have a pet cat neutered instead - somewhere around £100 maybe.
[/QUOTE said:


> the thing with this is...those people arnt going to spend money on kittens they cant sell... theres just going to be more kittens getting dumped/drowned/killed or given to shelters


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> the thing with this is...those people arnt going to spend money on kittens they cant sell


The point is that they *can* sell them if they purchase a permit to sell. I see moggie kittens advertised at ridiculous prices, sold when they are just about weaned so long before they've cost the seller any of the real expenses involved in raising kittens.

Those who expect kittens to be pure profit will obviously object to spending any money. They're the ones we need to stop.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Shayden said:


> the thing with this is...those people arnt going to spend money on kittens they cant sell... theres just going to be more kittens getting dumped/drowned/killed or given to shelters


But it might well deter those who deliberately allow their cat to become pregnant with a view to selling the kittens.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But it might well deter those who deliberately allow their cat to become pregnant with a view to selling the kittens.


I'd hope so. I don't see too many people with 'accidental' litters claiming that sales are the main objective but whenever I suggest selling permits it's amazing how many of these cat 'lovers' object in the strongest terms. The first argument is always that these supposed cat lovers would rather drown kittens than give them away to good homes :


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

i agree with the idea. i just dont think its feesable! for people who make a mini business from breeding moggies or pedigrees for pure profit then yes they would pay but i see loads of kittens on gumtree etc for $20 or $30 and its those people who i dont feel would pay. they would either give away the kittens at a really young age (on the blacck market so to speak) in which the new owners may have the financial problems if anything goes wrong or you would see alot of cardboard boxes/binbags full of kittens. or even more of the kittens at rescues.

hopefully people would think twice and just spay ther cat but the reality is.... people wouldnt think to buy a licence until there cat is pregnant...and alot of people are aganist nutering pregnant cats


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> people wouldnt think to buy a licence until there cat is pregnant


Of course they wouldn't - they wouldn't need to until they had kittens. Then they have a choice as to whether they spend out on a permit to charge money for them.



> they would either give away the kittens at a really young age (on the blacck market so to speak)


That 'black market' already exists, quite legally with people charging money for young kittens.

There is no way of enforcing neutering (at least here in the UK). The alternative is to make it financially attractive to do so.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> for people who make a mini business from breeding moggies or pedigrees for pure profit then yes they would pay


These are the very people who at present operate under the radar - the kitten farms. Even though the price of a permit would not deter them they would at least become 'known'. Any decent breeder is already known to their own vet and nobody would query them purchasing a permit to sell. Any cat owner should have their cat registered with a vet so there wouldn't be any problem for them.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

admittedly it would be great... pity its probably not gonna happen in our lifetime lol . especially if these back yard breeders were registered it would be easier to keep an eye on them via rspca etc. be able to know how many queens studs kittens they have at any one time and be able to do spot checks and make sure all animals were well cared for and not just row apon row of cages and kittens


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Shayden said:


> admittedly it would be great... pity its probably not gonna happen in our lifetime lol .


I actually don't think it would take too much of a push by any organisation with enough clout. I see it working in a very simplistic way, as pointed out by Havoc. If you wish to sell kittens, buy a licence from the vet. Thinking about it even more, I can see the veterinary profession as a whole backing the idea themselves for obvious reasons.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

when you put it that way... vets would probably back it. especially if it ment kittens would need to be vet checked twice and at the very least mum be up to date with vacs etc.... they would be making money at the same time


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> vets would probably back it. especially if it ment kittens would need to be vet checked twice and at the very least mum be up to date with vacs etc.... they would be making money at the same time


I wasn't even thinking of going that far - much as I'd love to and further. My thoughts with it are deliberately not to judge or impose checks etc. Vet's could make a bit from the admin and it would be great if in return they gave out money off vouchers to pet owners so they would return to get a pet spayed. This would at least help prevent further 'mistakes' and yes, I guess it would bring in a bit of business.


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

I think in cat and dog breeding there should be a law...

The breeder should apply for a licence from the council (gccf or other) and the council should inspect the premises regularly to ensure the animals are being looked after. If a breeder (in dogs especially) is pumping out excess amounts of litters inspections should be made more regularly. 

All breeding stock should be fully health tested and vet checked regularly so any conditions can be picked up on early.

Any breeding stock not health tested results in a fine and the licence being revoked if they continue to breed from unhealth tested dogs/cats.

______________________________________________________

The main issue I have found is that (in dogs) some of the top breeding kennels are less than great. They breed to many litters, do not fully health test yet they get the most custom because they have so many litters. And dont ask questions to the potential owners.

I once went to buy a pedigree cat, the kitten was everything I wanted GCCF registered the colour I wanted and I arrived at the house in a less than great area but some great people live in not so great area's. 

Being a pedigree breeder I expected the house to be clean and the cats to be looked after. This was not what I found....

The cats were forced to live on the stairs (which were not very roomy) the mum had apparnetly died in birth but dad was there, from what I saw of him (he was very anti-social) his eyes were so infected he could berely open them and his skin was in bad condition. The kitten was only young, I was told he was 12 weeks he was not....the vet thought 5 weeks. I took the kitten (I was very nieve) the lady told me to keep feeding it lactol because it was not used to kitten food yet so I basiclly weaned it. I took it to the vet the vet said it was infected with cat flu, I took the cat back to the breeder she took it back after I threatened solicitors but the point to the story is....

If regular checks were done these breeders would not keep the animals in that condition. 

In the next few years I am going to get a pedigree cat, knowing what I know now? I know what to avoid but its so easy to walk away with an animal out of pity or worry.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Here in Sweden cat breedíng is regulated by law. Except from the obvious, that it's illegal to breed animals that may pass on defects/diseases you need a permit to keep more than 9 adults, breed more than 2 litters a year, sell more than 3 cats bred by other one than you, sell kittens from more than 2 litters etc. It's also illegal to take kittens away from their mother before tha age of 12 weeks.

So has this made any difference? No. Serious breeders have always taken these things for granted and we are the ones that apply for permits (and are granted them). The common cat owner who just wants to breed a litter still don't care. The farmers that should have permits don't bother to apply for them even though *it's free*.

Sure, if a cat owner or breeder is reported to the authorities they have greater possibilities to do something but people don't report. Common people who buy kittens from other common people who just wanted one litter before spaying their female 1) don't know the laws 2) don't care about them.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

This wouldn't work here in the UK either. I can't see how we'd get a workable definition of 'breeding'. Is someone who has an 'accidental' litter breeding? I'm fairly sure most of the thousands of non-pedigree kittens advertised for sale each year come from people who would never agree they were breeders. It's exactly because of this difficulty that my mind turned to the sale of kittens as the point of regulation. It saves all the arguments as to who is/isn't a breeder and whether we could ever enforce neutering for cats not specifically intended for breeding. It also allows for anyone to make an honest 'mistake' - just not to profit from it.


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## Emma-Jayne (Apr 23, 2011)

Sorry to revive an old thread but I wanted to cross post a thread I started on cat chat. (Just trying to reach as many people as possible)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/167733-proposing-campaign.html

I would love your thoughts on this.

Em xxx


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