# Holding a dog down ?



## Guest (Jun 26, 2009)

Do you pin your dog to the floor ?
Would you ?

I have read posts on the forum of late saying they pin there dog to the floor,even young puppies 

Why do owners feel it's necessary ? Surely there are better more postitive ways to train ?

I have never done this with either of my dogs and never would,I actually think it's quite dangerous for the novice owner to attempt and a damn sure way of getting bitten.

Thoughts ?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I can't see I'd ever be in the situation where I'd have to with either of my girls, although I did have to grab (not technically pin) one of my rescues who tried to bite someone (fear aggression issues) and calmly remove her to another room.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2009)

I wouldnt pin my dog on the floor but I occasionally roll him on his side and have him stay this way for a very short while..this is mostly when he becomes over excited in games and starts nipping (very rare now) just to get him it calm down...and it works just fine 

I dont think its ever safe for humans to engage is actual violence with any animal so if pinning down involves violence it should be avoided...however you can roll a dog on his side (submissive state some will say) without the use of violence at all...


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

I've never done it to a dog nor would I ever do it. There are far better ways to train dogs than alpha rolling them.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

never done it, never will.... i cant think of an situation why this would be of any benefit to the dogs behaviour?  

I think some people think that makes them dominant over their dog but i think its more dangerous than anything else ...


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

No never i get him to lay down on his bed if hes behaving in a way i dont like 

OH sometimes play pins him but hes always able to get up e.t.c


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

I have to say that at the time my last gsd was going through his ''teenage years'' i was working at Scampers dog training school in soham and had witnessed behaviourists 'pinning' dogs. I used this technique on him when he snapped at my face one day in 'cocky boy' mode and i only ever had to do it that once, he never challenged me again and we had a fantastic relationship all his life, he was my soulmate and this never undid that bond we had just seemed to help get us through that situation.
It really doesnt hurt and it is just the same as mum when she pushes a dominant pup down and holds them by the scruff until they become calm submissive, it is just a better way of telling them off than smacking (which many people still do, i don't).

It just depends on the dog i have a 2and a half year old labx now who i would never have to use that on as he would never dream of challenging any of us or being dominant! My gsd pup i have now is also very laid back at the mo so hasn't needed any form of telling off yet so we will wait and see but if he does go through that phase i wouldn't hesitate in 'pinning' him!!(which is just lying him on his side and holding until he is calm/submissive)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natik said:


> never done it, never will.... i cant think of an situation why this would be of any benefit to the dogs behaviour?
> 
> I think some people think that makes them dominant over their dog but i think its more dangerous than anything else ...


Sometimes you've got little choice, not one of my dogs, but quite some time ago someone's dog tried to go for my friend when we were minding our own business walking down a beach. She isn't particularly doggy minded and had no idea what to do, the dog (a GSD X) just wouldn't go away and kept trying to get to her, the owner was a large lady sunbathing on a towel oblivious to what her dog was up to, just calling its name without even looking to see where it was. I had to pin and hold the dog until someone else came along to help, there wasn't really any other option.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Never done it and never will. I can see NO good reason to or any benefit in doing so.

I am alarmed that this advice is given out on the forum and have had to bite my tongue a few times. It is dangerous advice to give and just because someone has done it to their pet dog and the dog has accepted it it does not mean that it has worked as a method. Anyone who does this and gets bitten is asking for it IMO.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sometimes you've got little choice, not one of my dogs, but quite some time ago someone's dog tried to go for my friend when we were minding our own business walking down a beach. She isn't particularly doggy minded and had no idea what to do, the dog (a GSD X) just wouldn't go away and kept trying to get to her, the owner was a large lady sunbathing on a towel oblivious to what her dog was up to, just calling its name without even looking to see where it was. I had to pin and hold the dog until someone else came along to help, there wasn't really any other option.


That's a different situation to pinning a dog down to teach it a lesson or express dominance thats holding a dog to help someone.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2009)

By pinning I think most (reasonable) owners mean only laying down a dog on his side and holding him there applying minimal force. The whole process should be quite smooth really, it shouldnt involved actually physically fighting with the dog and normally should carry very little risk of a bite quite the contrary as it is meant to deflect an aggressive or somewhat dangerous attitude from the dog...
Thats the way I see it anyway


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## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

I've never done it but I do occasionally slip a finger in his collar to stop him lunging at visitors in excitement when I'm answering the door and don't want him to run outside the house! Idk if that's the same thing.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Sleeping_Lion
> Sometimes you've got little choice, not one of my dogs, but quite some time ago someone's dog tried to go for my friend when we were minding our own business walking down a beach. She isn't particularly doggy minded and had no idea what to do, the dog (a GSD X) just wouldn't go away and kept trying to get to her, the owner was a large lady sunbathing on a towel oblivious to what her dog was up to, just calling its name without even looking to see where it was. I had to pin and hold the dog until someone else came along to help, there wasn't really any other option.
> 
> That's a different situation to pinning a dog down to teach it a lesson or express dominance thats holding a dog to help someone.


I agree - restraining a dog until help comes is different to using pinning down to teach a dog something.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sometimes you've got little choice, not one of my dogs, but quite some time ago someone's dog tried to go for my friend when we were minding our own business walking down a beach. She isn't particularly doggy minded and had no idea what to do, the dog (a GSD X) just wouldn't go away and kept trying to get to her, the owner was a large lady sunbathing on a towel oblivious to what her dog was up to, just calling its name without even looking to see where it was. I had to pin and hold the dog until someone else came along to help, there wasn't really any other option.


protecting urself or someone else is different to "training out" unwanted behaviour or just simply wanting to be "the dominant one" by using this techinique.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Never done it and never will. I can see NO good reason to or any benefit in doing so.
> 
> I am alarmed that this advice is given out on the forum and have had to bite my tongue a few times. It is dangerous advice to give and just because someone has done it to their pet dog and the dog has accepted it it does not mean that it has worked as a method. Anyone who does this and gets bitten is asking for it IMO.


I agree,I feel that it's not necessary and has no place in training.

Where does it have a place in training a 12 week old pup not to bite ?

Those breeder's who have had pups,have you seen your bitch repremand her pups in this way ?


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## jlushh (Jun 22, 2009)

I sometimes do the "alpha-rolling" thing, but very rarely. I feel kinda mean doing it, it's always a last resort.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

i have, under instruction from a "trainer", when Oscar was about two, and when i knew no better. It was the one and only time Oscar has EVER lifted his lip to me. Im thankful that i am physically stronger than him, as i think he would have bitten me.

I can put both my dogs on their sides and back, but that because of trust and not through force. I dont think pinning a dog actually achieves anything, but infact sets training and bonding back.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sorry Sallyanne, should have read your original post a bit more thoroughly, no worries, the 'edit' police got me :blushing:

To be fair, in the situation with the GSD, it was the blinkin' woman who deserved pinning down and lecturing, she obviously had no idea about responsible dog ownership.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> The whole process should be quite smooth really, it shouldnt involved actually physically fighting with the dog and normally should carry very little risk of a bite quite the contrary as it is meant to deflect an aggressive or somewhat dangerous attitude from the dog...


Anyone who has allowed a dog to get to the 'aggressive or somewhat dangerous attitude from the dog' stage shouldn't be training/owning dogs, much less use methods like these. Besides, there are far more effective methods for dealing with problems.

I have not seen one post on this forum that justifies using this method and certainly where it has been recommended there has been no aggression or danger, simply an owner who doesn't know how to train properly. I despair at some of the advice that is given on this forum sometimes.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry Sallyanne, should have read your original post a bit more thoroughly, no worries, the 'edit' police got me :blushing:
> 
> To be fair, in the situation with the GSD, it was the blinkin' woman who deserved pinning down and lecturing, she obviously had no idea about responsible dog ownership.


LOL,
No worries,I am amazed at the number of dog owners who just don't have a clue when it comes to training.I think another common one is a "dominant" when infact the dog is poorly trained.

I think the pinning has become more common since CM.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Anyone who has allowed a dog to get to the 'aggressive or somewhat dangerous attitude from the dog' stage shouldn't be training/owning dogs, much less use methods like these. Besides, there are far more effective methods for dealing with problems.
> 
> I have not seen one post on this forum that justifies using this method and certainly where it has been recommended there has been no aggression or danger, simply an owner who doesn't know how to train properly. I despair at some of the advice that is given on this forum sometimes.


Again I agree,some of the advice is downright dangerous.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I have never done it on my current dogs, I have used it recently though but not in a dominance way, I had to otherwise the situation could have got alot worse!

I was asked to help train a gsd. Zeus was a ''junk yard dog'' and had been chained up his whole life, when he was around 3 he was rescued by some friends, he was just skin and bones.
Anyway, they wanted me to help train him, I was walking him in their enclosed yard, he heard two dogs walk by, one of them was ''chatting'' to its owner, whining and yipping. Out of no-where he suddenly flew into a frenzy and turned to where my friend was standing watching us. If I hadn't twisted his collar and pinned him until he calmed down, when an emergency muzzle was immediately put on he would have either attacked me or her. He still wears a muzzle, still lives in their yard in a seperate enclosure to their other dog but he is getting better. That was the only time this dog was pinned, plenty of other dogs had walked past with no reaction so it was completely out of the blue.

That is the only time I have done it, other than that I have rolled a dog onto its side and made it lie there until it calmed down, like when they have got far too exited.

x


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> LOL,
> No worries,I am amazed at the number of dog owners who just don't have a clue when it comes to training.I think another common one is a "dominant" when infact the dog is poorly trained.
> 
> I think the pinning has become more common since CM.


Completely agree, some owners just don't seem to understand cause and reaction with their dogs. I remember a conversation with another dog walker I used to bump into regularly, she wanted to buy an E-collar to put on her springer dog to stop him barking. In the same conversation she told me how cute her little corgi pup was, and how he was already 'talking' to her, barking to ask to be let up on the couch, barking for his tea 

I did tell her in no uncertain terms that an E-collar was not the answer, and pointed out how she was actually training her dogs to bark for attention in the first place, in as polite a way possible.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2009)

Unfortunately there are a lot of idiotic owners (and generally people) and almost anything used badly can be dangerous and cruel...
And nobody is their right mind should attempt to "reform" a truly aggressive dog without expert knowledge or advice!

As far as im concerned "pinning" a dog can be useful if used reasonably depending on the circumstances. 
It can be used gently to help a dog calm down and can sometimes be a good way (or the only way) to deflect an aggression... some also see it as a way to assert leadership over their pet dog...
all in all if its done properly, without violence or harm to the dog I dont see a problem.

Any form of violence against a dog (or any animal) is likely to end badly thats for sure.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

never have , never would. ..................


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## mag&me (May 6, 2009)

I would never, ever pin or hold a dog down ever.

Asides from the theory behind it being completely flawed I think it's a sure fired way of getting bitten and making the dog worse.
I think when people see it having worked, what they are actually seeing is a dog that has shut down somewhat, and that to me is a potentially dangerous situation.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I think the pinning has become more common since CM.


I agree - it used to be referred to as an 'alpha roll' and the reason then was to counteract 'dominance' by becoming the 'alpha'. It was based on erroneous conclusions that the alpha dog did this to subordinate dogs to 'dominate' them, and in spite of this being disproved people still maintain the myth.

Nowadays, though, I hear more people stating that it's a 'calming technique' a la CM


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I only do it when my dogs are already calm, so i can rub their bellies and check for ticks etc. They both seem to enjoy it.


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## amy trotters mum (Jun 5, 2009)

Interesting debate! My dog has always been a little grumpy round other dogs, and, since she can no longer go training to mix properly, and because of leg problems, can't walk far, she is now very short tempered with dogs which look like they may be exited, when she gets in a state, the only thing I find works is gently rolling her on her side and keep her facing the opposite direction from the dog, (ones we have met before and know are ok with her!) after doing this for a minute or so, she calms herself down and carries on with her digging/playing etc. I wouldn't even try to pin a dog down, especially a greyhound x, they just bend!:smilewinkgrin:


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## Birdie Wife (Mar 30, 2009)

I'm ashamed to say I have done it a couple of times on my puppy , out of a misguided bit of information I received that parent dogs are supposed to do this to their puppies when they get too out of hand. It didn't work - I now do escalating volume of "No" followed by exclusion for a few minutes, which is working so much better that I'm really kicking myself for not having done it before. :blushing: now after a couple of No's my pup generally stops what she's doing 'cos she knows that if she continues that she'll be excluded.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

Oblada said:


> By pinning I think most (reasonable) owners mean only laying down a dog on his side and holding him there applying minimal force. The whole process should be quite smooth really, it shouldnt involved actually physically fighting with the dog and normally should carry very little risk of a bite quite the contrary as it is meant to deflect an aggressive or somewhat dangerous attitude from the dog...
> Thats the way I see it anyway


Well exactly and that is all i have ever done *once before and like i said i wouldn't hesitate to do it again if i felt the need!*[/B]


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I dont think it helps in training, if the puppy/dog was trained from the start of its life.....it wouldnt be needed on a pup/adult 'out of control' dog would it?


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Pinning a dog down or Alpha Rolling is an outdated punishment technique.

Anyone who who uses these methods is a bully in my opinion and has very little respect for their dogs.

Relationships with animals are based on respect and mutual trust, those techniques are niether of these.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Nicci said:


> Pinning a dog down or Alpha Rolling is an outdated punishment technique.
> 
> Anyone who who uses these methods is a bully in my opinion and has very little respect for their dogs.
> 
> Relationships with animals are based on respect and mutual trust, those techniques are niether of these.


It is not meant as a punishment per say.
It depends how it is done and what are the circumstances.
I wouldnt call anyone a bully without actually seeing what they do and their relationship with the dog, and by the same token I wouldnt just call anyone using a crate cruel...


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nicci said:


> Pinning a dog down or Alpha Rolling is an outdated punishment technique.
> 
> Anyone who who uses these methods is a bully in my opinion and has very little respect for their dogs.
> 
> Relationships with animals are based on respect and mutual trust, those techniques are niether of these.


I totally agree with you


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## bichonsrus (May 16, 2009)

Oblada said:


> I wouldnt pin my dog on the floor but I occasionally roll him on his side and have him stay this way for a very short while..this is mostly when he becomes over excited in games and starts nipping (very rare now) just to get him it calm down...and it works just fine
> 
> I dont think its ever safe for humans to engage is actual violence with any animal so if pinning down involves violence it should be avoided...however you can roll a dog on his side (submissive state some will say) without the use of violence at all...


this is the method i use occasionally, if ceaser says its ok , then id go with it, its just reminds the dog that you are incharge if the dog forgets, it doesnt hurt and you dont need to be heavy handed at all when this is done.


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## mag&me (May 6, 2009)

I don't understand in what situation people feel the need to use this on their own dogs and what your reasoning is behind it?


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

mag&me said:


> I don't understand in what situation people feel the need to use this on their own dogs and what your reasoning is behind it?


see the previous posts 

It seems that people like to get all shocked by it whilst in actual fact it does not involve violence or harm (unless misused like anything else!) so really IMO as long as the dog is happy and cared for, to each is own!


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## mag&me (May 6, 2009)

I think I'm just always going to be shocked at the number of people who see it as acceptable, especially when based on a flawed theory.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

Nicci said:


> Pinning a dog down or Alpha Rolling is an outdated punishment technique.
> 
> Anyone who who uses these methods is a bully in my opinion and has very little respect for their dogs.
> 
> Relationships with animals are based on respect and mutual trust, those techniques are niether of these.


I think you are very unfair to make such a judgemental comment about this if you have never witnessed it being performed, my previous gsd was at risk of biting us out of cockiness in his teenage phase and as i said previously i was working at a dog behaviour centre and used this technique only once, he did not get upset or show any signs of pain i just rolled him and held him until he was calm and he never snapped again. He was well trained and under control and we had 10 fantastic years together so don't ever come on here and call people like myself a bully when you don;t even know me or my dogs and have never witnessed the relationship i have with my dogs.


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## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

I have been watching Fey with her pups to see what language she speaks to them when they get out of hand she puts one paw accross their sholders and pulls them towards her so they are lying on their side she then places the other paw underneath them and proceeds to lick their muzzle, when she is done she lets them up, it is all very gentle and effective lol

When fey was a pup I was told by a very well respected dog trainer to pin her in a similar way, hold her shoulders in a down it made her worse to be fair and I wouldn't recommend using it.

I found that Fey responded to me when she was getting lots of love and caressing, letting her feed from my hand, stroking her gently all over her body, playing gentle games and rewarding her progress.


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## mag&me (May 6, 2009)

She was only stating her opinion.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

mag&me said:


> She was only stating her opinion.


There are better ways to express one's opinion than name calling and passing judgments on others out of ignorance.

All in all, for me it depends how and why it is done.
It can be as gentle as the bitch with her pups...
It depends on the dog and temperament.
With my boy I dont think I have ever needed to do it to purely assert my leadership (most dogs, brought up from pups esp, will never ever be truly "dominant" in my opinion) but it is the best way I have found to have him calm down when he going overboard and its very gently and softly done.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

mag&me said:


> She was only stating her opinion.


There are better ways of doing that to be fair than calling people bullies!!


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Matrix/Logan said:


> I think you are very unfair to make such a judgemental comment about this if you have never witnessed it being performed, my previous gsd was at risk of biting us out of cockiness in his teenage phase and as i said previously i was working at a dog behaviour centre and used this technique only once, he did not get upset or show any signs of pain i just rolled him and held him until he was calm and he never snapped again. He was well trained and under control and we had 10 fantastic years together so don't ever come on here and call people like myself a bully when you don;t even know me or my dogs and have never witnessed the relationship i have with my dogs.


I don't think I am being unfair, I've had 18 years of independantly being a dog owner these methods are outdated, I've owned STRONG bull breeds for many years and NEVER felt the need to use these methods.

If you don't like my posts or my straight talking, there is always the report button


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

Nicci said:


> I don't think I am being unfair, I've had 18 years of independantly being a dog owner these methods are outdated, I've owned STRONG bull breeds for many years and NEVER felt the need to use these methods.
> 
> If you don't like my posts or my straight talking, there is always the report button


I don't dislike your posts, we are all entitled to our opinions i just don't think you need to add the name calling to get your point accross!!


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

I was merely giving my opinion based on what I feel and have learned through owning large dominant dogs in the last 18 years. 

Alpaha Rolling/Pinning dogs down, call it what you like can teach a dog to become fear aggressive and with big dominant breeds, things like that are not needed and can infact become quite dangerous.
I for one don't encourage these methods, nor would I advise that anyone should do them especially to folk that come here looking for advice that don't have much experience when it comes to owning dogs.

I see no valid reason to bully a dog into submission when other methods can be used to encourge the kind of behaviour you want from your dog.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nicci said:


> I was merely giving my opinion based on what I feel and have learned through owning large dominant dogs in the last 18 years.
> 
> Alpaha Rolling/Pinning dogs down, call it what you like can teach a dog to become fear aggressive and with big dominant breeds, things like that are not needed and can infact become quite dangerous.
> I for one don't encourage these methods, nor would I advise that anyone should do them especially to folk that come here looking for advice that don't have much experience when it comes to owning dogs.
> ...


I must have misread this i can't see where you've called anyone names But have to say i call it bullying as well.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

The forum has been so calm for the last few days with people behaving themselves extremely well 

Its that kind of quick judgment and name calling however (and those coming after them to "pour oil on the fire" ) that drives people to argument.

I can understand it being a "sensitive" topic however generalising and categorising people without listening to what they have to say is not a very dignified way to move a discussion forward.
Not everyone who rolls their dog on their side to calm them down is a bully, and if done gently there is no reason why it should spark up aggression. It does not have to be used because of total adherence to the pack and dominance theory, it can be done merely to control and pacify a dog who is crossing boundaries. It is not about bullying a dog into submission but putting him in a position where he can achieve a calmer state of mind. 

If it is used wrongly, with violence and aggression, of course it is dangerous.
But so is the wrongful use of crates...

xx


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

christine c said:


> I must have misread this i can't see where you've called anyone names But have to say i call it bullying as well.


I don't believe I have called anyone on the thread names I was giving my opinion on pinning dogs down/alpha rolling and in my opinion you are placing your dog in an un-natural postion in order to gain submission, not only is it dangerous it is downright irresponsible to advise that new owners do this in order to gain control over their dog.

I for one wouldn't put any of my dogs in that position because I would expect to get bitten and it wouldn't be my dogs fault, it would be my own.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Nicci said:


> I was merely giving my opinion based on what I feel and have learned through owning large dominant dogs in the last 18 years.
> 
> Alpaha Rolling/Pinning dogs down, call it what you like can teach a dog to become fear aggressive and with big dominant breeds, things like that are not needed and can infact become quite dangerous.
> I for one don't encourage these methods, nor would I advise that anyone should do them especially to folk that come here looking for advice that don't have much experience when it comes to owning dogs.
> ...


I agree with you Nicci,as I said I believe it's become more common since CM,who trains, rehabilitates whatever you want to call it through fear,flooding and bullying and the dog starts to shut down.

I also think it's bullying a dog,when there is absolutely no need for it and it has no place in my training with my dogs.
I want my dogs do do what I ask of them because they want to please,not through fear.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Oblada said:


> The forum has been so calm for the last few days with people behaving themselves extremely well
> 
> Its that kind of quick judgment and name calling however (and those coming after them to "pour oil on the fire" ) that drives people to argument.


I haven't come on this thread to pour oil on the fire, I've expressed an opinion of which I am entitled, sorry I don't agree with your or anyone elses methods of pinning/alpha rolling their dogs 

Newcommers could easily read and attempt to try such bad advice and end up getting bitten in the process, is that what we all want?

No, don't think so.


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## mag&me (May 6, 2009)

I think this is this biggest problem. People are out there copying what they see some guy do on the telly without understanding what they are doing or why.

It's so dangerous and completely based on a nonsense theory which is why I asked what people's reasoning was behind doing it and no one has really answered that question.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Nicci said:


> I haven't come on this thread to pour oil on the fire, I've expressed an opinion of which I am entitled, sorry I don't agree with your or anyone elses methods of pinning/alpha rolling their dogs
> 
> Newcommers could easily read and attempt to try such bad advice and end up getting bitten in the process, is that what we all want?
> 
> No, don't think so.


I did not mean you for the "oil on the fire" thing 

But yes as much as I accept your views I personally feel it may not be necessary to call everyone a bully based on limited facts. It would be like me calling everyone who used a crate (which I personally disagree with) cruel...not fair!

I certainly disagree with "training" a dog through fear or violence but I dont think that rolling a dog to its side necessarily entails bullying, fear or violence. I think it can be done gently to calm a dog down, without any sort of harm and without upsetting the dog - if you dont agree this can be done then fair enough, we disagree, but dont label me as a bully or someone who works my dog through fear as I am assuring you that whatever I do to train my dog NEVER involves any form of violence or fear on his part.

xx


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nicci said:


> I don't believe I have called anyone on the thread names I was giving my opinion on pinning dogs down/alpha rolling and in my opinion you are placing your dog in an un-natural postion in order to gain submission, not only is it dangerous it is downright irresponsible to advise that new owners do this in order to gain control over their dog.
> 
> I for one wouldn't put any of my dogs in that position because I would expect to get bitten and it wouldn't be my dogs fault, it would be my own.





Nicci said:


> I haven't come on this thread to pour oil on the fire, I've expressed an opinion of which I am entitled, sorry I don't agree with your or anyone elses methods of pinning/alpha rolling their dogs
> 
> Newcommers could easily read and attempt to try such bad advice and end up getting bitten in the process, is that what we all want?
> 
> No, don't think so.





Oblada said:


> I did not mean you for the "oil on the fire" thing
> 
> But yes as much as I accept your views I personally feel it may not be necessary to call everyone a bully based on limited facts. It would be like me calling everyone who used a crate (which I personally disagree with) cruel...not fair!
> 
> ...


Sorry Nikki it me she's getting at again Another red blob on the way? Please pm me rather cause trouble on a thread


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Oblada said:


> I did not mean you for the "oil on the fire" thing
> 
> But yes as much as I accept your views I personally feel it may not be necessary to call everyone a bully based on limited facts. It would be like me calling everyone who used a crate (which I personally disagree with) cruel...not fair!
> 
> ...


Where did I single one person out on this thread in terms of being a Bully?

Pinning a dog down/Alpha Rolling IS in MY opinion bullying your dog into the act of submission.

I for one would expect to have my face chewed off if I ever attempted to do such a thing with my dogs, getting your dogs to gently roll over and forcing/pinning your dog to gain submission are two totally different things.
All my dogs will gently roll over if asked to, but I wouldn't dream of forcing them to do it in ways that are really not appropriate.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

You should watch the dogs whisperer. It's great. He pins the dogs down but he is ever so gentle with them and the dogs calm down. I have never had to do it wiht any of my dogs. I only do it if we are playing but with Chance being blind I don't do it to him. I pin Dixie down but she gets up and gently does the same to me and starts licking me. Chance will pin me down if I call him over and lick me to. The dogs don't hurt though.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Nicci said:


> getting your dogs to gently roll over and forcing/pinning your dog to gain submission are two totally different things.
> All my dogs will gently roll over if asked to, but I wouldn't dream of forcing them to do it in ways that are really not appropriate.


EXACTLY - that we agree on - and in my opinion the "alpha roll" should be about being gentle, not forcing, no violence, whatever you want to achieve with it (submissive, calm state of mind...).
I would never condone violence against a dog unless completely necessary (self-defence I suppose..) and certainly not as a training method.
On that at least we agree  But its on what the "roll" entails that we seem to diverge in opinion..
Some see it as a useful tool to assert leadership, some dont, fair enough but whatever the beliefs on leadership are, there is NO NEED for violence.

You did not single one person as a bully but just broadly stated that anyone using that technique, regardless of how it was done, was a bully...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

for those who pin their dogs down...do u also hold them down at their neck imitating a bite?

I roll my dogs over too if i want to tickle their belly and some make it sound like that their pinning down is relaxing their dog just like u would tickle them and show affection. Which of course isnt....


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> for those who pin their dogs down...do u also hold them down at their neck imitating a bite?
> 
> I roll my dogs over too if i want to tickle their belly and some make it sound like that their pinning down is relaxing their dog just like u would tickle them and show affection. Which of course isnt....


I agree i do that with mine I never hold and they are free too go when they want


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Oblada said:


> EXACTLY - that we agree on - and in my opinion the "alpha roll" should be about being gentle, not forcing, no violence, whatever you want to achieve with it (submissive, calm state of mind...).
> I would never condone violence against a dog unless completely necessary (self-defence I suppose..) and certainly not as a training method.
> On that at least we agree  But its on what the "roll" entails that we seem to diverge in opinion..
> Some see it as a useful tool to assert leadership, some dont, fair enough but whatever the beliefs on leadership are, there is NO NEED for violence.
> ...


Thing is though, I don't alpha roll or pin my dogs down 

If I ask them to lie down they will, I don't have to use these methods to gain control of my dogs (all of which are large Bull Breeds with the exception of two).

All my methods have been positive and in no way degrading to the point of terrifying my dogs into submitting to me I trust my dogs and they trust me, there is no need or reason why my dogs would fear me and I certainly don't agree to pinning/alpha rolling dogs as a way of getting them to take notice of me or submitting to me.

Whilst I agree a dog should know it's place there are other methods of getting your dog to do what you want it to and pinning/forcing down/alpha rolling my dogs has never been one of them.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Nicci said:


> Thing is though, I don't alpha roll or pin my dogs down
> 
> If I ask them to lie down they will, I don't have to use these methods to gain control of my dogs (all of which are large Bull Breeds with the exception of two).
> 
> ...


I dont know what language I have to use to make it clear that alpha rolls dont have to be degrading, violent, aggressive, instigating fear or breaching any sort of trust. In my opinion it should not be forceful and use only minimal force. You can use the image of the mother doing (or how she would do it) it to her pups if you want.
I think all the members who came here acknowledging the use of this method expressed clearly that it was done gently, except maybe in the very rare case of an actually dangerously aggressive dog...

My boy is very well trained so never had to use it to assert my leadership, only to calm him down in his most boisterous times and now a command will normally suffice, so im no expert but as far as I see it if done gently and with respect for the dog I dont have a problem. 
I have more of a problem with the use of crate lol but even then I accept some may use them well and they should be respected for that...
Anyway leaving it at that..well ive tried!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Oblada said:


> In my opinion it should not be forceful and use only minimal force


im confused about the above lol it still counts as forceful even if u use minimal force


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Natik said:


> im confused about the above lol it still counts as forceful even if u use minimal force


forceful = use of full force.............

force = physical energy (not violence in this context)

Sorry I said I was leaving it at that..


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Oblada said:


> forceful = use of full force.............
> 
> force = physical energy (not violence in this context)
> 
> Sorry I said I was leaving it at that..


thanks for explaining though :idea:


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## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

I would never bitch roll Drym he would probably let me but he wouldn't be happy about it at all, if someone else tried to do it they would probably lose their face to be fair


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

Now, now you lot, we have all expressed our opinions on this subject lets just agree to disagree eh?

Anyway like i said previously i was working at a dog behavioural centre when i rolled/pinned my gsd and i took professional advice. I would never 'advise' anyone to do this as i am not a qualified dog behaviourist which is why i merely answered the original enquiry with a 'yes i had done it' and not a step by step explanation as to how to do this, unless they had a proffessional to advise them on how to perfom the technique properly then i don't think anyone should attempt it. 

Shall we leave it there guys and move on!!?? :001_tt2:


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## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

Matrix/Logan said:


> Now, now you lot, we have all expressed our opinions on this subject lets just agree to disagree eh?
> 
> Anyway like i said previously i was working at a dog behavioural centre when i rolled/pinned my gsd and i took professional advice. I would never 'advise' anyone to do this as i am not a qualified dog behaviourist which is why i merely answered the original enquiry with a 'yes i had done it' and not a step by step explanation as to how to do this, unless they had a proffessional to advise them on how to perfom the technique properly then i don't think anyone should attempt it.
> 
> Shall we leave it there guys and move on!!?? :001_tt2:


Your dogs are beautiful


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

So are yours! Is Bear a gsd? I love Merlyn, so pretty!! You must be very proud of them all!!

I think mine are too but then i am biased!!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think that most training methods work for the right person and the right dog at the right time. I hate daft terms like alpha roll, they sound stupid. But scruffing or pinning a dog in exceptional cirucumstances is perfectly acceptable. If you dont like it then you probably dont know when or how to use it in which case you are absolutely right to say you would never do it.
It is highly unlikely to work with a very dominant adult dog though as it will fight back so again owners of dominant bull breeds are quite right to say they would never do it.
Can people on here not accept that there are some very skilled trainers who successfully use methods that the average dog owner probably wouldnt want to or shouldnt do. And yes, there are also some less than skilled trainers who read the dog completely wrong and make huge errors.
I am a great believer in using the quickest method though, whether it be dogs, horses or children. Why faff around for months training something when one quick sharp lesson will do the trick.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

The only time I pin Sky down is when we're play fighting. If she's laying on the bed I'll pin her down then bounce her up and down.

She loves it


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I personally choose not to although I had to once to stop Maya attacking another dog that was trying to attack her.


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## mag&me (May 6, 2009)

I would never trust any trainer who has to resort to pinning in any circumstance because usually attached to this method is that horrible "D" word which from my own experience is hugely damaging.

I honestly don't think there is any justification for using it, especially in a training environment.


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## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

Matrix/Logan said:


> So are yours! Is Bear a gsd? I love Merlyn, so pretty!! You must be very proud of them all!!
> 
> I think mine are too but then i am biased!!


Bear is a collie he has a tiny bit of New Zealand Huntaway in him which is where his colouring comes from 

Merlyn looks like his daddy and it is breaking my heart to part with him to be honest


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## jenny873 (Jan 5, 2009)

I wouldnt do this either, i think if there is a good 'relationship' with dog and owner, then training is pretty straight forward without the need for things like this, ive always found persistance gets better results than being pysical with a dog x


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2009)

mag&me said:


> I think this is this biggest problem. People are out there copying what they see some guy do on the telly without understanding what they are doing or why.
> 
> It's so dangerous and completely based on a nonsense theory which is why I asked what people's reasoning was behind doing it and no one has really answered that question.


He's not just some guy on the telly. His name is Cesar Millan. He rehabilitates dogs, he trains people, he is the dog whisperer. Like I have already said. I omly pin my dogs down if we are playing and they are always able to get up. Watch the dog whisperer on nat geo wild. You'll understand then.
Danielle.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

danielled said:


> He's not just some guy on the telly. His name is Cesar Millan. He rehabilitates dogs, he trains people, he is the dog whisperer. Like I have already said. I omly pin my dogs down if we are playing and they are always able to get up. Watch the dog whisperer on nat geo wild. You'll understand then.
> Danielle.


I think the point he/she was trying to make that you shouldn't do it without completely knowing what you are doing. You can watch a tv show, but if you haven't been shown by a professional who has watched you whilst doing it, it's very dangerous.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2009)

danielled said:


> He's not just some guy on the telly. His name is Cesar Millan. He rehabilitates dogs, he trains people, he is the dog whisperer. Like I have already said. I omly pin my dogs down if we are playing and they are always able to get up. Watch the dog whisperer on nat geo wild. You'll understand then.
> Danielle.


I have watched it,only a few times,I don't like him or the way in which he treats dogs.
I think he is a bully as I've stated on numerous CM threads before,he trains through fear,uses E-Collars,floods dogs,so they eventually shut down.

Sorry definatly not for me.

I also think it's a matter of time before a person gets seriously injured by copying and trying what he does.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Watch the dog whisperer on nat geo wild. You'll understand then.


I've watched it and I don't like his methods. He certainly has authority with dogs (and certainly the cases that I've seen the owners of these dogs are absolutely pathetic, haven't got the first clue and really shouldn't own dogs) but I agree with Sallyanne, he's a bully. American methods and thoughts are quite different on training from ours. Gundog training is a good example. E-collars are the norm when gundog training in the US, here it is not commonly used (although I won't say it's not used at all, but those that do use them tend not to be seen in a particularly good light).

YouTube - Day After Da Big Piss'n Match: Force To Fecth Command

This is a typical of US training - I can see how Cesear Milan has appeal when this is the norm in training methods (and CM himself uses ecollars). I don't see any place in this kind of training and would hate to see the UK following these kinds of methods. I have been saddened by the number of people that follow Cesear Milan's methods on the board and think them perfectly acceptable ways to train dogs.

Danielle - go and watch a good trainer at work - then you will see why people don't like Cesear Milan's methods.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2009)

This man is frightening, we are going back to the old methods that were used in the first part of the 20th century, it was called dog breaking 
And that's exactly what is happening now, breaking dogs spirits


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i feel so sorry for that dog in the vid and knowing that people think that thats the right way to train a dog is very upsetting 

That poor dog looks so scared and frightened


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't watch anything on the T.V that relates to people claiming they can work miracles with problem dogs as I usually find something that I don't like about them relating to the way the dogs are handled.

I've seen enough within two minutes anyway, same old story it isn't the damn dogs that need training, it's the owners and their old fashioned ways of thinking.

Most of the folk you see on the T.V with problem dogs are those that think dogs can become humanized, there lies the problem.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Never have and never would. 

Sounds like the stupid thing Cesar Milan would do.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I cannot see the point


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## MuddyPuppies (Jun 24, 2009)

Pinning a dog down isn't just as cruel as caging, crating or shutting them in a room to calm down. You are restricting the freedom of the dog, just as any negative stimulus will do in training. I use both negative and positive stimuli in training. And I have to say that I have pinned once and pinning is/was a last resort, and that it does work. Although there are caveats. 
My border terrier was really trying to test the boundries, when he decided to go on a mental jumping and biting spree (and before you say "well if it got to that stage then you shouldn't be allowed to have a dog", this was an otherwise very well behaved dog, that would very rarely try and see what he could get away with(10 month)). So I pinned him down, till he calmed down, and also made sure he remained down without force. After this episode he never pushed it as far again. (he will still be naughty, but not nasty, he is a border after all)

Caveats are: Last resort, big and strong enough to attempt it, accept that you may get bit, once he is pinned s/he doesn't move till you say so.

This is no way as cruel as smacking or electric collars. And is a last resort. If your scared of getting bit by your dog. Then I would say the dog already rules the house.

Most of the posts on here attacking any form of pinning are then followed by loads of pictures of dogs with kisses and love hearts. They are not kids, they are dogs.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Most of the posts on here attacking any form of pinning are then followed by loads of pictures of dogs with kisses and love hearts.


On the contrary, those that are against pinning are from the more experienced owners that are competent trainers. I love my dogs, but they are dogs. I work and compete with them and I use corrections as well as positive training methods, however, I see no benefit in pinning a dog down, except the owner thinks they've cured the dog of something - it is only detrimental to the relationship and carries risks.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

MuddyPuppies said:


> Most of the posts on here attacking any form of pinning are then followed by loads of pictures of dogs with kisses and love hearts. They are not kids, they are dogs.


There is nothing wrong with loving your dog. Yes they are animals, but why do people have pets if they're not meant to love them and treat them like one of their own?


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## mag&me (May 6, 2009)

MuddyPuppies said:


> Caveats are: Last resort, big and strong enough to attempt it, accept that you may get bit, once he is pinned s/he doesn't move till you say so.
> 
> This is no way as cruel as smacking or electric collars. And is a last resort. If your scared of getting bit by your dog. Then I would say the dog already rules the house.


It is cruel to hold a dog down, especially a struggling one until it doesn't move. The chances are that it ceases moving because it has shut down and that for some owner can be misunderstood as a dog submitting. It's dangerous and a state of mind I would never wish to see any dog.

Again, no one has answered my question on the reasoning behind pinning, when it's based on a theory which has been found to be a nonsense?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2009)

MuddyPuppies said:


> Pinning a dog down isn't just as cruel as caging, crating or shutting them in a room to calm down.


So pinning/alpha rolling a dog isn't restricting the freedom of the dog?



> If your scared of getting bit by your dog. Then I would say the dog already rules the house.


What complete and utter nonsense.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

danielled said:


> He's not just some guy on the telly. His name is Cesar Millan. He rehabilitates dogs, he trains people, he is the dog whisperer. Like I have already said. I omly pin my dogs down if we are playing and they are always able to get up. Watch the dog whisperer on nat geo wild. You'll understand then.
> Danielle.


The American Humane society sent a letter to national geographic a few years ago asking them to stop showing his shows. They considered the programme to be inhumane. 
'Dog Whisperer' Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful

Terri


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2009)

Personally I wouldnt pin my dog, he is stubborn and strong minded and I cant see how this would help him at all. I think it is also potentially dangerous for inexperianced owners to see people like CM doing it and trying to replicate this with troubled dogs.

PS whoever mentioned about bouncing their dogs on the bed lol...my OH does this with buster it drives me nuts


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Savahl said:


> Personally I wouldnt pin my dog, he is stubborn and strong minded and I cant see how this would help him at all. I think it is also potentially dangerous for inexperianced owners to see people like CM doing it and trying to replicate this with troubled dogs.
> 
> PS whoever mentioned about bouncing their dogs on the bed lol...my OH does this with buster it drives me nuts


Sky enjoys it


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

danielled said:


> He's not just some guy on the telly. His name is Cesar Millan. He rehabilitates dogs, he trains people, he is the dog whisperer. Like I have already said. I omly pin my dogs down if we are playing and they are always able to get up. Watch the dog whisperer on nat geo wild. You'll understand then.
> Danielle.


Ok here's the thing. I love the dog whisperer. I will never watch another trainer. Cesar is the only person who understands dogs like I do. Leave Cesar Millan alone. He looks after his two pits Junior and Daddy. He looks after all his pack. He loves dogs just like me.
Danielle.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

I for one wouldn't do it, I do make my dogs go 'down' if they have done something wrong, but that's more a control issue than me physically pinning them to the floor. It's dangerous and quiet frankly I can't see any reason why anyone would find it necessary. I do play fight with my dogs and roll them on their backs but that's playing and I certainly don't pin them down!ut:


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## MuddyPuppies (Jun 24, 2009)

Nicci said:


> So pinning/alpha rolling a dog isn't restricting the freedom of the dog?


Sorry I meant to put is rather than isn't.



Nicci said:


> What complete and utter nonsense.


I don't think so. There are lots of dog owners about that have a dogs that rule the roost through intimidation. They go along with being submissive to a dog in thier (edit: mis-spelling, although there is probably plenty more) house just have a quiet life.

Anyway who says this technique is proved to be rubbish, doesn't seem like something that could be trialed scientifically? It would be all based around empirical evidence and circumstance. 
Anyhow it worked for me, and I still have a dog, not a robot or a broken dog.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

danielled said:


> Ok here's the thing. I love the dog whisperer. I will never watch another trainer. Cesar is the only person who understands dogs like I do. Leave Cesar Millan alone. He looks after his two pits Junior and Daddy. He looks after all his pack. He loves dogs just like me.
> Danielle.


And that's fine for you to have an opinion, but other people don't like him and they're allowed to voice their opinion too.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Ok here's the thing. I love the dog whisperer. I will never watch another trainer. Cesar is the only person who understands dogs like I do. Leave Cesar Millan alone. He looks after his two pits Junior and Daddy. He looks after all his pack. He loves dogs just like me.
> Danielle.


Danielle you shouldn't believe all you see on TV. Cesear Milan uses the ecollar to condition the dog first (did you watch the video) - what you see when he uses 'his two fingers to calm them' and the 'laying them on their side' is only after having conditioned them with the ecollar. He is a showman and top trainers and behaviourists like Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar are all worried by the impact on gullible members of the public who use his techniques on their dogs.

If you enjoy watching him on tv that's fine, but I wouldn't advise using his training methods and especially, I wouldn't give others advice based on his methods either.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> I have watched it,only a few times,I don't like him or the way in which he treats dogs.
> I think he is a bully as I've stated on numerous CM threads before,he trains through fear,uses E-Collars,floods dogs,so they eventually shut down.
> 
> Sorry definatly not for me.
> ...


I've seen his techniques work on a gazzillion dogs. It's all about being calm and assertive. The trick is exercise, discipline and then affection in that order. Another thng is he is not a bully. I read your reply to my two dogs and they growled at it. They like Cesar Millan to. The dogs growled at your reply. This is why dogs bite people not that my dogs ever would. He doesn't train through fear either. He never causes the dogs to shut down. The dogs shut down because they choose to shut down. I'm Cesar Millan's number one fan. I know every episode by heart right from the beginning to now.
Danielle. He even celebrated his 100th episode not long ago. I watched it.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Never have and never would.
> 
> Sounds like the stupid thing Cesar Milan would do.


Leave Cesar Millan alone. I'm his number one fan. It's not a stupidthing to do. It's all about the energy and staying calm and assertive. Exercise, discipline and then affection in that order.
Stay calmand assertive.
Danielle. He loves dogs.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

danielled said:


> I've seen his techniques work on a gazzillion dogs. It's all about being calm and assertive. The trick is exercise, discipline and then affection in that order. Another thng is he is not a bully. I read your reply to my two dogs and they growled at it. They like Cesar Millan to. The dogs growled at your reply. This is why dogs bite people not that my dogs ever would. He doesn't train through fear either. He never causes the dogs to shut down. The dogs shut down because they choose to shut down. I'm Cesar Millan's number one fan. I know every episode by heart right from the beginning to now.
> Danielle. He even celebrated his 100th episode not long ago. I watched it.


Your dogs growled at a reply typed at a forum?


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

danielled said:


> I've seen his techniques work on a gazzillion dogs. It's all about being calm and assertive. The trick is exercise, discipline and then affection in that order. Another thng is he is not a bully. I read your reply to my two dogs and they growled at it. They like Cesar Millan to. The dogs growled at your reply. This is why dogs bite people not that my dogs ever would. He doesn't train through fear either. He never causes the dogs to shut down. The dogs shut down because they choose to shut down. I'm Cesar Millan's number one fan. I know every episode by heart right from the beginning to now.
> Danielle. He even celebrated his 100th episode not long ago. I watched it.


Danielle,
I have an opinion which I am entitled to.
I consider him to be a Bully,my opinion and one I will stick too!
Your dogs growled at my post Please,how mature is that ?

How long have you kept dogs for Danielle and have you owned any with behaviour issue's ?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Okay, in from the cat forum, there is obviously a great deal that upsets/ annoys many people about CM. I actually really like him but . . . I'm talking about the way he trains owners and dogs that aren't last chance cases. Those I leave to him and other experts. I've seen te two offending videos and yes they don't look good but no-one is perfect and 99% of the dogs on here and their owners are not talking abot these cases, they want simple advice abot simple problems. 

For example, he sees people with yappy snappy lap dogs that poop in the house and chew and fight each other. The owners think it is the dogs fault and then CM asks when they were last walked. 'Walk! We never walk them they are little why would they need a walk?' comes the reply. A lot of dog problems are caused by owner ignorance and in these cases CM helps owners realise the responsiblity of dog owning. Dog won't let you take it's bone, Ceasar shows you how without getting bitten. Body language and attitude in the owner are key and CM teaches that too. I've owned 4 dogs in my vast life and all of them have been trained by me, all have been complimented on how well trained they are. How have I done it? I've always be the boss (this doesn't mean I dominate them but I am in charge). I can take food awy as well as give it. If I want to go through the door first I will, they have always eaten after the family, they don't sleep on the bed or are allowed upstairs, if they do something wrong usually a raised eyebrow and a small throaty grumble is enough to stop them. I have never 'alpha rolled', but have held my collie in a down position when she picked up a kitten by it's head in her mouth and wouldn't 'drop it', I then opened her jaws and rescued the unharmed but very soggy bundle. No time for positvie rewards or soft tactics the kitten would have suffocated or drowned in the copious salvia the dog was producing. I also knew it was her mothering instincts kicking in and she meant no harm but I still needed that kitten back. 

I think the concentation on the 'bad' bits of CM is unhelpful as he does a lotof good with normal dogs and normal people. ANd yes, it does seem that a lot of Americans that own dogs are a lotof dozzy moo's with very little common sense and to most of us what CM teaches is second nature (and maybe that is why a lot of you don't see or notice that part of it). 

I mean, guys, anything has got to better than Barbara Woodhouse!!!!!!!!!!:001_tt2: SEEEERRRRRRIT!


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

danielled said:


> The dogs growled at your reply. This is why dogs bite people not that my dogs ever would.


This statement has me slightly worried,dogs bite for all sorts of reasons,I think your post shows alot of immaturity.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Your dogs growled at a reply typed at a forum?


Clever dogs!!
I do roll and pin one of mine. Dont see anything wrong with it. My chihuahua can get over excited and try to dominant the other dogs in the house. If I roll him and hold him til he relaxes he is much calmer. He doesnt object to this, he always greets strange dogs by rolling onto his back and pretty much falls over with the slightest pressure. It is relaxing FOR HIM. 
Any dog that you have to struggle with should not be rolled coz he clearly has issues with trust or fear and will probably bite you!
My whippet doesnt like to roll when greeting or playing, if he gets too excited (6months old so he is like zebedee at times) then I just stand over him and stroke his head to 'switch off' the excitability. This is calming TO HIM, he likes to stick his head through your legs to get affection when out walking(not in a weird way honest!!!). Although it does freak out the people you've stopped to talk to when a whippet appears between their legs!!! 
I prefer using their own preferences and behaviours to get want I want out of them, it just so happens that rolling and holding appeals to one of mine. Like some people would like a big hug, others (me!) would run screaming for the hills and possible punch the hugger..


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> Clever dogs!!
> I do roll and pin one of mine. Dont see anything wrong with it. My chihuahua can get over excited and try to dominant the other dogs in the house. If I roll him and hold him til he relaxes he is much calmer. He doesnt object to this, he always greets strange dogs by rolling onto his back and pretty much falls over with the slightest pressure. It is relaxing FOR HIM.
> Any dog that you have to struggle with should not be rolled coz he clearly has issues with trust or fear and will probably bite you!
> My whippet doesnt like to roll when greeting or playing, if he gets too excited (6months old so he is like zebedee at times) then I just stand over him and stroke his head to 'switch off' the excitability. This is calming TO HIM, he likes to stick his head through your legs to get affection when out walking(not in a weird way honest!!!). Although it does freak out the people you've stopped to talk to when a whippet appears between their legs!!!
> I prefer using their own preferences and behaviours to get want I want out of them, it just so happens that rolling and holding appeals to one of mine. Like some people would like a big hug, others (me!) would run screaming for the hills and possible punch the hugger..


Haha your dog sounds like my mum's JRT, all you have to is look at her and she'll roll over


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> The dogs growled at your reply. This is why dogs bite people not that my dogs ever would.


Your dogs growled at a reply?!?!??

I think you are putting human emotions on your dogs which is something Cesear Milan would NEVER do !


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

How can dogs growl at a reply on the forum? Sure I'd say that jokingly say when someone said Buster was a PRT he sighed but still I don't believe that was because of what the person had said they DON'T understand English and Cesar himself is very adamant about that. I only pin the dogs down when play wrestling and they love it.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

danielled said:


> I've seen his techniques work on a gazzillion dogs. It's all about being calm and assertive. The trick is exercise, discipline and then affection in that order. Another thng is he is not a bully. I read your reply to my two dogs and they growled at it. They like Cesar Millan to. The dogs growled at your reply. This is why dogs bite people not that my dogs ever would. He doesn't train through fear either. He never causes the dogs to shut down. The dogs shut down because they choose to shut down. I'm Cesar Millan's number one fan. I know every episode by heart right from the beginning to now.
> Danielle. He even celebrated his 100th episode not long ago. I watched it.


lol, that made me laugh! Just had this image in my head of your dogs sitting infront of comp growling at it!! Get real!!

As for Cesar Mila, yes he may work wonders on 'gazillions' of dogs but as someone said earlier (sorry cant remember who), you are only seeing what they want you to see on the programme...not what he does beforehand or inbetween to get the dog to 'obey' him!

Anyway, back to the topic....no I have never pinned my dog to control him and never would...IMO, if you have to resort to this then you really dont have any control over your dog at all!

x


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

OMG :lol:

I've heard it all now, dogs growling at replies on petforums :lol:


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nicci said:


> OMG :lol:
> 
> I've heard it all now, dogs growling at replies on petforums :lol:


thought you going to stick your thumb up then


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

MuddyPuppies said:


> I don't think so. There are lots of dog owners about that have a dogs that rule the roost through intimidation. They go along with being submissive to a dog in thier (edit: mis-spelling, although there is probably plenty more) house just have a quiet life.
> 
> Anyway who says this technique is proved to be rubbish, doesn't seem like something that could be trialed scientifically? It would be all based around empirical evidence and circumstance.
> Anyhow it worked for me, and I still have a dog, not a robot or a broken dog.


It is rubbish, I couldn't afford to allow my dogs to rule the household, especially with the breeds I own and the fact I have two children one of whom is only just coming up to 17 months old.

I haven't and never have had to resort to hard handed tactics to get my dogs attention or to stop them doing what I don't want them to. I have perfectly happy stable family dogs, who are happy being part of the family and anyone who tried to do these things to my dogs, whether it be me or anyone else I would expect them to get bitten because my dogs would be being placed totally out of their "comfort" zones.

However, just because I say that does not mean I have dogs the "rule" the roost as you put it, like I say I couldn't afford for them to do that with young children in the house. They know their place without anyone here having to resort to such drastic outdates measures.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

christine c said:


> thought you going to stick your thumb up then


Well I won't deny that I laughed when I read it 

I've never known dogs that could read  I know they are capable of doing many clever things but danielled must know something we all don't 

I'd like to employ her dogs actually to go through all my bills and let them growl at ones they don't think are worth paying, saves me the bother of having to read them.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

This whole thread is really silly. Of course you shouldnt pin a dog down. if someone pinned you down would that make you calm and submissive?? If it was me id probably nut whoever did its teeth out!!!! Its completely unnatural. Many dogs wont even go onto their backs themselves. My ridgeback has never lie completely on his back because it freaks him out!! Its mean to force a dog into any position and it doesnt teach them anything except that people are mean and shouldnt be trusted.

Despite what many people think wild dogs do not pin each other down forcefully. Its a complete myth. Someone saw a wolf do it once and somehow its been made a miracle cure for dog behaviour. Its not a common wolf behaviour and it certainly isnt a natural dog behaviour. The idiot that noticed it first probably didnt realize the wolves were playing, as thats the only time Ive ever seen any similar behaviour. i.e. one of them roles over and the other pulls the skin around their neck. Just the same as my dogs do. Being aggressive towards an animal doesnt calm it down it scares it. Personally I dont want my dogs to be afraid of me. I want them to like me. And I have never seen any problem that cant be solved with some love and treats.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> This whole thread is really silly. Of course you shouldnt pin a dog down. if someone pinned you down would that make you calm and submissive?? If it was me id probably nut whoever did its teeth out!!!! Its completely unnatural. Many dogs wont even go onto their backs themselves. My ridgeback has never lie completely on his back because it freaks him out!! Its mean to force a dog into any position and it doesnt teach them anything except that people are mean and shouldnt be trusted.
> 
> Despite what many people think wild dogs do not pin each other down forcefully. Its a complete myth. Someone saw a wolf do it once and somehow its been made a miracle cure for dog behaviour. Its not a common wolf behaviour and it certainly isnt a natural dog behaviour. The idiot that noticed it first probably didnt realize the wolves were playing, as thats the only time Ive ever seen any similar behaviour. i.e. one of them roles over and the other pulls the skin around their neck. Just the same as my dogs do. Being aggressive towards an animal doesnt calm it down it scares it. Personally I dont want my dogs to be afraid of me. I want them to like me. And I have never seen any problem that cant be solved with some love and treats.


If it's not common behaviour than can you please explain to me why my smaller dog pins my gsd to the floor? (they only do this when playing)


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

danielled said:


> I've seen his techniques work on a gazzillion dogs. It's all about being calm and assertive. The trick is exercise, discipline and then affection in that order. Another thng is he is not a bully. I read your reply to my two dogs and they growled at it. They like Cesar Millan to. The dogs growled at your reply. This is why dogs bite people not that my dogs ever would. He doesn't train through fear either. He never causes the dogs to shut down. The dogs shut down because they choose to shut down. I'm Cesar Millan's number one fan. I know every episode by heart right from the beginning to now.
> Danielle. He even celebrated his 100th episode not long ago. I watched it.


Hahahahahahahahaha
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

SORRY :blushing:


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

sequeena said:


> If it's not common behaviour than can you please explain to me why my smaller dog pins my gsd to the floor? (they only do this when playing)


thats what i meant, its not a common behaviour in a nasty agressive way its a play thing and so by people doing it to dogs in an aggressive mannor it does nothing but scare your dog. someone at some point down the line got play confused with aggression and has tried to use it to dominate their dogs even though its not a natural behaviour for a dog to pin another one down to show dominance. its been used in the wrong context for years and has probably messed up a lot of dogs.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> thats what i meant, its not a common behaviour in a nasty agressive way its a play thing and so by people doing it to dogs in an aggressive mannor it does nothing but scare your dog. someone at some point down the line got play confused with aggression and has tried to use it to dominate their dogs even though its not a natural behaviour for a dog to pin another one down to show dominance. its been used in the wrong context for years and has probably messed up a lot of dogs.


Ah right sorry  Even when my two get a bit aggressive they never resort to pinning.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Ah right sorry  Even when my two get a bit aggressive they never resort to pinning.


exactly. i really need to improve my english me thinks. im getting worse at explaining things. maybe its the heat?? lol.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> exactly. i really need to improve my english me thinks. im getting worse at explaining things. maybe its the heat?? lol.


Lmao I think the heat is getting to everyone today, I feel stick and get extremely grumpy when I'm too warm lol x


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2009)

sequeena said:


> And that's fine for you to have an opinion, but other people don't like him and they're allowed to voice their opinion too.


Other people can feel free to voice their opinion. I'm just tryinjg to make a point but your not getting it. My uncle is friends with Cesr Millan. He lives not far from Cesar's dog rehabilitation centre you know. He rollls the dogs on their side.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Danielle you shouldn't believe all you see on TV. Cesear Milan uses the ecollar to condition the dog first (did you watch the video) - what you see when he uses 'his two fingers to calm them' and the 'laying them on their side' is only after having conditioned them with the ecollar. He is a showman and top trainers and behaviourists like Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar are all worried by the impact on gullible members of the public who use his techniques on their dogs.
> 
> If you enjoy watching him on tv that's fine, but I wouldn't advise using his training methods and especially, I wouldn't give others advice based on his methods either.


I'm blind. I have little vision and I did try to watch it but couldn't see ti at all. I have got gloakoma. I don't use his techiques to punih the dogs. I just play pin them. They can always get up. I love watching him. It takes my mind of everything and helps me deal with the loss of my 3 year old cat Toby who died nearly 3 months ago after being run over.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2009)

Yes they did. They are asleep now. They like Cesar Millan too. They are very clever dogs.
Danielle.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

danielled said:


> Other people can feel free to voice their opinion. I'm just tryinjg to make a point but your not getting it. My uncle is friends with Cesr Millan. He lives not far from Cesar's dog rehabilitation centre you know. He rollls the dogs on their side.
> Danielle.


Yeah. Okay....


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

danielled said:


> Other people can feel free to voice their opinion. I'm just tryinjg to make a point but your not getting it. My uncle is friends with Cesr Millan. He lives not far from Cesar's dog rehabilitation centre you know. He rollls the dogs on their side.
> Danielle.


So what exactly is your point?


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

Nicci said:


> Well I won't deny that I laughed when I read it
> 
> I've never known dogs that could read  I know they are capable of doing many clever things but danielled must know something we all don't
> 
> I'd like to employ her dogs actually to go through all my bills and let them growl at ones they don't think are worth paying, saves me the bother of having to read them.


I read it to the dogs and they growl. They growl at some of my bills to. I do know something you all don't. I can understand why you laughed. I got my pay monthly phone bill last month and they growled at that. There goes another growl this time at a blank piece of paper. Dixie quiet. She eats everything too. She even eats her leads and collars.
Danielle.


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

danielled said:


> I read it to the dogs and they growl. They growl at some of my bills to. I do know something you all don't. I can understand why you laughed. I got my pay monthly phone bill last month and they growled at that. There goes another growl this time at a blank piece of paper. Dixie quiet. She eats everything too. She even eats her leads and collars.
> Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

rona said:


> Hahahahahahahahaha
> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> SORRY :blushing:


Are you laughing at me there?
Danielle.


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

Is it just me or is everyone


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> Is it just me or is everyone


lol think we all are


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

christine c said:


> lol think we all are


Glad its not just me


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

danielled said:


> I'm blind. I have little vision and I did try to watch it but couldn't see ti at all. I have got gloakoma. I don't use his techiques to punih the dogs. I just play pin them. They can always get up. I love watching him. It takes my mind of everything and helps me deal with the loss of my 3 year old cat Toby who died nearly 3 months ago after being run over.
> Danielle.


im so sorry to hear about the loss of your cat Danielle, my Nan had glaucoma her eyesight was very poor but i get the impression that your quite young so im very sorry to hear this too.x

im not a fan of Ceasar training techniques i prefer the likes of Ian Dunbar & Jean Donaldson thats just my opinion


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

This thread has turned quite bizarre  

Or is that just me??

Ignoring the argument of cruelty...
In my mind if you feel the need to pin a dog, whatever reason that may be, doesnt it just highlight that there is something else wrong that needs attention...treating the symptom not the root of the problem...

If a dog is reacting to another dog...do you pin it, or work on eliminating the reason why it is reacting...is it fear, anxiety, nerves? Treat these rather than putting the dog in a position where it cant (or encouraged not to) react naturally - which could come back later with bad results..

If a dog is over excited and uncontrollable... do you pin it to "calm it down", or work on whats making the over excitement? Dietry problems? Over or under excercised? under stimulated mentally...

I find the whole thing a bit too "quick fix".. there is no true quick fix with dogs. Everything has a root cause, and all pinning seems to do is sedate the dog for that period of time, but all it does is mask a problem


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

Savahl said:


> This thread has turned quite bizarre
> 
> Or is that just me??


myself and christine both thought the same


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> myself and christine both thought the same


Same here


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Same here


Glad its not just me lol ut:


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> Is it just me or is everyone


Lol Totally


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> This whole thread is really silly. Of course you shouldnt pin a dog down. if someone pinned you down would that make you calm and submissive?? If it was me id probably nut whoever did its teeth out!!!! Its completely unnatural. Many dogs wont even go onto their backs themselves. My ridgeback has never lie completely on his back because it freaks him out!! Its mean to force a dog into any position and it doesnt teach them anything except that people are mean and shouldnt be trusted.
> 
> Despite what many people think wild dogs do not pin each other down forcefully. Its a complete myth. Someone saw a wolf do it once and somehow its been made a miracle cure for dog behaviour. Its not a common wolf behaviour and it certainly isnt a natural dog behaviour. The idiot that noticed it first probably didnt realize the wolves were playing, as thats the only time Ive ever seen any similar behaviour. i.e. one of them roles over and the other pulls the skin around their neck. Just the same as my dogs do. Being aggressive towards an animal doesnt calm it down it scares it. Personally I dont want my dogs to be afraid of me. I want them to like me. And I have never seen any problem that cant be solved with some love and treats.


If somebody pinned me down I would calm down very fast. I've had to be pinned down in the past to calm me down and it worked. Within two minutes I was calm enough to be let up again. It didn't hurt.
Danielle.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

danielled said:


> If somebody pinned me down I would calm down very fast. I've had to be pinned down in the past to calm me down and it worked. Within two minutes I was calm enough to be let up again. It didn't hurt.
> Danielle.


I've been pinned down (never serious only through "play fighting" :blushing and I've always become aggressive and edgy. I do not like the feeling of being trapped.

Everyone is different.

If you pin a dog down and it reacts like I do you had better watch out.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I've been pinned down (never serious only through "play fighting" :blushing and I've always become aggressive and edgy. I do not like the feeling of being trapped.
> 
> Everyone is different.
> 
> If you pin a dog down and it reacts like I do you had better watch out.


Ditto. Eventually you are likely to stop moving/fighting, but thats not due to being calm - its more of a resignation; but still aggitated. Just realisation that fighting isnt going to work when in that position - like i said this does not mean the initial problem is solved!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Savahl said:


> Ditto. Eventually you are likely to stop moving/fighting, but thats not due to being calm - its more of a resignation; but still aggitated. Just realisation that fighting isnt going to work when in that position - like i said this does not mean the initial problem is solved!


Exactly  as soon as you let it up the dog's probably going to lunge at you


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

Savahl said:


> Ditto. Eventually you are likely to stop moving/fighting, but thats not due to being calm - its more of a resignation; but still aggitated. Just realisation that fighting isnt going to work when in that position - like i said this does not mean the initial problem is solved!


If it was me i would stop trying to escape through pure fear of thinking whats going to happen next 
not only that we are talking about a person and a dog look at the size/weight difference.
All i can say is i never want my dogs to fear me.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

danielled said:


> If somebody pinned me down I would calm down very fast. I've had to be pinned down in the past to calm me down and it worked. Within two minutes I was calm enough to be let up again. It didn't hurt.
> Danielle.


i think kinder methods of training are best Danielle i dont think its nice to force an animal to submit, you can explain things to a person but i must be very frightening to a dog.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> If it was me i would stop trying to escape through pure fear of thinking whats going to happen next
> not only that we are talking about a person and a dog look at the size/weight difference.
> All i can say is i never want my dogs to fear me.


I would never do it but in terms of weight difference it really depends on the breed how much bigger the human is. I would stop eventually out of fear not submission


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> If somebody pinned me down I would calm down very fast. I've had to be pinned down in the past to calm me down and it worked. Within two minutes I was calm enough to be let up again. It didn't hurt.
> Danielle.


I no you say it didn't hurt, but wern't you scared? how old were you?. i think they used to call it tough love. i could never see where the love part came in


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

By the way I'm in a band just so you know. My dogs love me. I've been on the radio and in the Salford advertiser. The single is called Hero. We were on Salford city raido 94.4FM. They played the single. Cesar Millan is my hero. Well him and my two dogs and the goldfish Dasher and Comet and Toby my cat who sadly died at the age of 3 years old as I have said in the rainbow bridge section of this site. Going to see a wienmarana puppy at 4.30. His name is Cordy.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

danielled said:


> By the way I'm in a band just so you know. My dogs love me. I've been on the radio and in the Salford advertiser. The single is called Hero. We were on Salford city raido 94.4FM. They played the single. Cesar Millan is my hero. Well him and my two dogs and the goldfish Dasher and Comet and Toby my cat who sadly died at the age of 3 years old as I have said in the rainbow bridge section of this site. Going to see a wienmarana puppy at 4.30. His name is Cordy.
> Danielle.


Hi Danielle!
Do you mean you are going to see a weimaraner tonight? How old is he?
DT


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

christine c said:


> lol think we all are


The heat is getting to me a bit. The dogs are asleep at the minute. No doubt they will wake up soon though. I've never punished them by pinning them down. Like I have already said I only play pin them.
Danielle.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> The heat is getting to me a bit. The dogs are asleep at the minute. No doubt they will wake up soon though. I've never punished them by pinning them down. Like I have already said I only play pin them.
> Danielle.


Think the heat is getting to all of us


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Yeah. Okay....


Yeeah ok to you but to me Cesar is awesome but I would never use his techniques on my two dogs.
Danielle.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

danielled said:


> Yeeah ok to you but to me Cesar is awesome but I would never use his techniques on my two dogs.
> Danielle.


Weren't you just singing praises about his techniques? I'm confused now, do you or do you not use his techniques?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

danielled said:


> Yeeah ok to you but to me Cesar is awesome but I would never use his techniques on my two dogs.
> Danielle.


Why wouldnt you?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> So what exactly is your point?[/QUOT
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is taht even though I am Cesar's number one fan and love watching him on telly I would never use any of his techniques on my two dogs Chance and Dixie. Do you get the message yet? Do you understand what I'm trying to say now?
> Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> Is it just me or is everyone


I'm not sad I'm happy. I just don't like being laughed at is all.
Danielle.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

danielled said:


> The point I'm trying to make is taht even though I am Cesar's number one fan and love watching him on telly I would never use any of his techniques on my two dogs Chance and Dixie. Do you get the message yet? Do you understand what I'm trying to say now?
> Danielle.


If you had actually said that, then yes. But you didnt, you just defended him, saying how wonderful he is.

I dont understand why you think he is so wonderful, yet you wouldnt use his methods on your own dogs. Surely you either agree with his training methods or you dont?


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

danielled said:


> I'm not sad I'm happy. I just don't like being laughed at is all.
> Danielle.


Honestly i was not laughing at you i am just confused as are other members.Some members do not agree with Ceaser Millans "ways" and "methods" you have said your his number one fan but you would never use his "methods"


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

danielled said:


> Nonnie said:
> 
> 
> > So what exactly is your point?[/QUOT
> ...


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> danielled said:
> 
> 
> > Wheres Janice??! i'm sure shes Ceasars No 1 fan!
> ...


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## Birdie Wife (Mar 30, 2009)

I think I'd like to stick up for danielle on this point (though I'm sure she would do just fine by herself) - on all of Cesar's programmes there is a warning to not try his techniwues at home without consulting a professional first - the programme that we see is just a part of the story with the retraining/rehabilitation process and there is no time in the half-hour slot to fully explain some of the whys and wherefores of the techniques he uses. So I can see why danielle would not use his techniques even though she may agree with his methods, they certainly seem to work.

Would just like to add a caveat that I am neither Cesar's no. x fan nor do I think he's an idiot!


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i think kinder methods of training are best Danielle i dont think its nice to force an animal to submit, you can explain things to a person but i must be very frightening to a dog.


I never pin my two dogs down. Well only play pin them. If any of my two dogs do anything wrong I make them lie down on their bed. That works with me. They behave after that.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

christine c said:


> I no you say it didn't hurt, but wern't you scared? how old were you?. i think they used to call it tough love. i could never see where the love part came in


I was 20 and now I am 23. No it didn't hurt and no I wasn't scared. Nothing scares me. I was cool with it.
Danielle.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> I was 20 and now I am 23. No it didn't hurt and no I wasn't scared. Nothing scares me. I was cool with it.
> Danielle.


Oh i'm really pleased to hear that


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hi Danielle!
> Do you mean you are going to see a weimaraner tonight? How old is he?
> DT


Tha'ts what I meant. Thank you. Did I spell it wrong? I can't remember how old he is. He is a cute puppy. His name is Cordy.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Weren't you just singing praises about his techniques? I'm confused now, do you or do you not use his techniques?


Sorry I didn't mean to confuse you. I'm not explaining it right. I don't use is techniques. There is only one techique of his I use and that is when the dogs pull me instead of pulling back I pull up to the side. I sing praise to some of his techniques not all of them. Is that clearer for you?
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

danielled said:


> Are you laughing at me there?
> Danielle.


Not laughing at you, just your dogs barking at the forum 
They obviously have some telepathy with you


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

danielled said:


> I never pin my two dogs down. Well only play pin them. If any of my two dogs do anything wrong I make them lie down on their bed. That works with me. They behave after that.
> Danielle.


ok Danielle that sound a good way to teach them then.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> im so sorry to hear about the loss of your cat Danielle, my Nan had glaucoma her eyesight was very poor but i get the impression that your quite young so im very sorry to hear this too.x
> 
> im not a fan of Ceasar training techniques i prefer the likes of Ian Dunbar & Jean Donaldson thats just my opinion


I was born with a visual impairment and then two years ago I found out I had pressure in my left eye which is the only eye I can see out of that could turn into glaucoma and now it's happened. I'm only 23. Turned 23 last week. Who are Ian Dunbar and Jean Donaldson when they're at home? Never heard of them. It's a bit too hot today. It's too hot beyond the joke. I'm roasting and none of the fans in my house work. I have tried opneing a window but I just get hotter if I do that. I think I need to live in my old water goldfish tank haha. That's how hot I am.
When I was a child I got called a blind bat and every name under the sun an I still get it now.
Danielle. Wy don't you visit my section on rainbow bridge on this site. It's called My 3 year old cat Toby died. I have another thread too called My cat Toby in the same section. I'll even tell you all about Toby.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I've been pinned down (never serious only through "play fighting" :blushing and I've always become aggressive and edgy. I do not like the feeling of being trapped.
> 
> Everyone is different.
> 
> If you pin a dog down and it reacts like I do you had better watch out.


Now you've got me lost. What do you mean if a dog reacts like you do? You'e got me confused. I don't mind the feeling of being trapped. I'm cool with it. My dogs pin me down when we are playing.
Danielle.


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

Hi Danielle sorry to read about your cat.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

danielled said:


> Tha'ts what I meant. Thank you. Did I spell it wrong? I can't remember how old he is. He is a cute puppy. His name is Cordy.
> Danielle.


Are you buying him from the breeder or will you be his second home!!! Interested in learning more! Have you done any homework regarding weimaraners??? 
DT


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

Ian & Jean are both dog trainers by the way!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

danielled said:


> I was born with a visual impairment and then two years ago I found out I had pressure in my left eye which is the only eye I can see out of that could turn into glaucoma and now it's happened. I'm only 23. Turned 23 last week. Who are Ian Dunbar and Jean Donaldson when they're at home? Never heard of them. It's a bit too hot today. It's too hot beyond the joke. I'm roasting and none of the fans in my house work. I have tried opneing a window but I just get hotter if I do that. I think I need to live in my old water goldfish tank haha. That's how hot I am.
> When I was a child I got called a blind bat and every name under the sun an I still get it now.
> Danielle. Wy don't you visit my section on rainbow bridge on this site. It's called My 3 year old cat Toby died. I have another thread too called My cat Toby in the same section. I'll even tell you all about Toby.


im really sorry about your eyesight, i thought you were only young, do you have to use drops for your glaucoma? my Nan did.
i'll go take look at the Rainbow bridge section you obviously loved your cat very much xx

Ian Dunbar & Jean Donaldson believe training should always be a positive experience for the dog rather than trying to dominate the animal....heres a link with a bit of info theres loads on the internet & theyve done some excellent books...The Anti-Cesar Millan / Ian Dunbar's been succeeding for 25 years with lure-reward dog training; how come he's been usurped by the flashy, aggressive TV host?

i know what you mean about the heat!! that chest freezers looking very tempting!!


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> on all of Cesar's programmes there is a warning to not try his techniwues at home without consulting a professional first - the programme that we see is just a part of the story with the retraining/rehabilitation process and there is no time in the half-hour slot to fully explain some of the whys and wherefores of the techniques he uses.


I think that is a very valid point - and why it is so wrong to give out advice on methods they have seen Cesear Milan using on his programme as is so often the case.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

danielled said:


> Now you've got me lost. What do you mean if a dog reacts like you do? You'e got me confused. I don't mind the feeling of being trapped. I'm cool with it. My dogs pin me down when we are playing.
> Danielle.


Dogs don't like feeling threatened (just like humans) and if they're backed into a corner (ie pinned down when they're being naughty/aggressive) they can and will turn if they want to. It doesn't matter how long you've had the dog or if it has a calm nature. If you happen to be in the position where you pin a dog down when it's being aggressive you should be very careful. A dog could rip your hand off if it wanted to or felt threatened enough.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Why wouldnt you?


Because I know kinder techniques and they respond to a simple no or lie down or bed. I love my two dogs.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

Birdie Wife said:


> I think I'd like to stick up for danielle on this point (though I'm sure she would do just fine by herself) - on all of Cesar's programmes there is a warning to not try his techniwues at home without consulting a professional first - the programme that we see is just a part of the story with the retraining/rehabilitation process and there is no time in the half-hour slot to fully explain some of the whys and wherefores of the techniques he uses. So I can see why danielle would not use his techniques even though she may agree with his methods, they certainly seem to work.
> 
> Would just like to add a caveat that I am neither Cesar's no. x fan nor do I think he's an idiot!


Thank you you have just told everyone what I have been trying to say since I joined. The warning not to try any of his techniques at home is the reason I don't use them.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> Honestly i was not laughing at you i am just confused as are other members.Some members do not agree with Ceaser Millans "ways" and "methods" you have said your his number one fan but you would never use his "methods"


Oh good. I'm being laughed at enough with my visual impairment and losing my cat.
Danielle. There is a warning telling yu not to try any of his techniques at home without seeing a proffessional first and that's why I don't use them.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> noushka05 said:
> 
> 
> > *I'm here lol you might have known i wouldn't be far away.People know my views on Cesar i think he's great.but i thought i'd sit back on this one.
> ...


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> The warning not to try any of his techniques at home is the reason I don't use them.


Then why do people recommend them and tell people to use them on this forum?


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Weren't you just singing praises about his techniques? I'm confused now, do you or do you not use his techniques?


I am singing praises for his techniques but I con't use them because the warning says not to without consulting a proffessional.
Danielle.


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

danielled said:


> Oh good. I'm being laughed at enough with my visual impairment and losing my cat.
> Danielle. There is a warning telling yu not to try any of his techniques at home without seeing a proffessional first and that's why I don't use them.
> Danielle.


Thats good you dont use his "methods" Danielle.Nobody here is laughing at you and its very sad you have lost your cat you obviously loved your cat very much.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

danielled said:


> I am singing praises for his techniques but I con't use them because the warning says not to without consulting a proffessional.
> Danielle.


So you would be happy to physically restrain your dog if you had the guidance of a professional?

Personally i wouldnt. I dont think its an effective training method at all, and imo any trainer who uses such methods needs to do some further studying. It may get results, but to the detriment of the animal. I think Cesar is quite cruel and a bully at times.

Training methods based on the dominace theory are outdated, and highly flawed.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Then why do people recommend them and tell people to use them on this forum?


*my personal oppion on that is, they warn people not to try certain things at home because in america they will sue for anything, so by putting out a warning they are covering themselves.*


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

danielled said:


> JANICE199 said:
> 
> 
> > Your a Cesar Millan fan to? He culd rehabilitate my two dogs too.
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

rona said:


> Not laughing at you, just your dogs barking at the forum
> They obviously have some telepathy with you


Can I ask you to please try not to laugh at the dogs. It upsets me. Thank you. They do have a telepathy with me.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

danielled said:


> Can I ask you to please try not to laugh at the dogs. It upsets me. Thank you. They do have a telepathy with me.
> Danielle.


I was laughing in a nice way I can assure you, I think it's quite sweet


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

You guys have been caught out. Somebody emailed me saying they are really annoyed and at how rude your being to me. I just thought you should know. Please get off your high horse. Maybe then my dogs willl get off their high horse too. Animals have been on this planet longer than we have you know.
Danielle. I'll be back to stick up for Cesar Millan, I promise. I'm famouse guys. Well I've already been in the salford advertiser and on the radio for being in the band.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> If you had actually said that, then yes. But you didnt, you just defended him, saying how wonderful he is.
> 
> I dont understand why you think he is so wonderful, yet you wouldnt use his methods on your own dogs. Surely you either agree with his training methods or you dont?


I'm defending Cesar and saying how wonderful he is because he is wonderful. I do agrre with his techniques. Cesar Millan is the best trainer I have seen. Can I ask why your being like this with me? It upsets me the way you guys are being with me.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

I don't think anyone would be able to pick on you, you seem a very capable person, it's just some people have a different opinion.
I think it is a good thing that we are all different.
Nobody can change your mind on Cesar, and that's ok but you have to realise that not every one agrees with him.
If you do that's fine


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## cherrie_b (Dec 14, 2008)

Having caught up this thread this morning, I would just like to say how rude I think many of you have been to Danielle. Who are you laugh at her or her dogs? She clearly cares for her dogs as much as any of you do...why do you think it is ok for you to laugh at them?? She would never laugh at you and your dogs. 

As she has explained, she doesn't agree with some of Cesar's method but if she chooses to idolise him it is her choice. 

You all go on about having your own opinions but if someone comes on here with a different opinion you are all quick to judge. 

There are people doing far worse to animals and people in this world and you want to have a go at a 23 year old girl for playing with her dogs. I don't think Danielle is the immature one here. 

Maybe you should cut her a bit of slack and advise forum members rather than judge and blame them all the time. 

This is not intended for argument, just an observation and my own personal opinion.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

cherrie_b said:


> Having caught up this thread this morning, I would just like to say how rude I think many of you have been to Danielle. Who are you laugh at her or her dogs? She clearly cares for her dogs as much as any of you do...why do you think it is ok for you to laugh at them?? She would never laugh at you and your dogs.
> 
> As she has explained, she doesn't agree with some of Cesar's method but if she chooses to idolise him it is her choice.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the help. Like you said I'm only play pinning the dogs. Am I not allowed to play with them. Lets see what they say to that. Be careful though. You've seen their comments with me. Hopefully that worked fingers crossed.
Danielle.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

rona said:


> I don't think anyone would be able to pick on you, you seem a very capable person, it's just some people have a different opinion.
> I think it is a good thing that we are all different.
> Nobody can change your mind on Cesar, and that's ok but you have to realise that not every one agrees with him.
> If you do that's fine


Now that last part of your comment was taking it a bit too far.
Danielle. Just quit judging me.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> danielled said:
> 
> 
> > Danielle,you will have a fight on your hands with janice over Ceaser
> ...


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

danielled said:


> Now that last part of your comment was taking it a bit too far.
> Danielle. Just quit judging me.


I am getting very confused by your replies to members. IMO No one is judging, laughing or extracting the urine (so to speak) YOU Maybe you should read the posts again as I have twice


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

danielled said:


> Now that last part of your comment was taking it a bit too far.
> Danielle. Just quit judging me.


I don't understand 
I'm being nice 
I wouldn't judge you ever


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

danielled said:


> animallover111 said:
> 
> 
> > Your taking it a step too far now but thanks for the warning. Maybe Janice could be his number 1 fan and I could be his number 2 fan?
> ...


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## cherrie_b (Dec 14, 2008)

animallover111 said:


> danielled said:
> 
> 
> > It was a joke,everyone knows on here that Janice adores Ceaser.
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

cherrie_b said:


> animallover111 said:
> 
> 
> > How was Danielle supposed to know this?
> ...


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## animallover111 (Apr 25, 2009)

animallover111 said:


> danielled said:
> 
> 
> > Danielle,you will have a fight on your hands with janice over Ceaser
> ...


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> cherrie_b said:
> 
> 
> > I think the smilies give it away
> ...


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## cherrie_b (Dec 14, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> rona said:
> 
> 
> > *i think my sig. picture says how i feel. when i believe in something or someone i'm not moved easily.*
> ...


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I think it would be best if this thread was closed. Its gone way off track, and is now going around in circles.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

danielled said:


> You guys have been caught out. Somebody emailed me saying they are really annoyed and at how rude your being to me. I just thought you should know. Please get off your high horse. Maybe then my dogs willl get off their high horse too. Animals have been on this planet longer than we have you know.
> Danielle. I'll be back to stick up for Cesar Millan, I promise. I'm famouse guys. Well I've already been in the salford advertiser and on the radio for being in the band.


Nobody was laughing at you, everyone has told you that (including myself) and whoever told you we were is an idiot 

I was just genuinely confused at why you wouldn't use Cesar's techniques and then you explained it to me so now I understand


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