# for and against breeding pedigree cats



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

my sis in laws(she is a total cat lady  ) and her friends were having a discussion about breeding pedigree cats - it got quite heated as sis in law feels that there are enough cats in the world that are homeless without breeding some just for "lines" (not sure what this meant) looks etc etc. she also said she abhors the idea of cat shows - could go on and on -but since I have never really thought about this and really don't know much about why cats are bred I was wondering what you all thought about it here.

Obviously the breeders here have done so after making an informed choice - but I'd love to hear (as I'm sure others who are in the dark like me) how it is a justified choice given that there are so many cats not just in this country but all over the world who live less than satisfactory lives.

I am not on any "side" but would just like to hear more about this so I can educate myself a bit on the subject


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I am 120% pro rescue and mog, but I do think there is a place for responsible breeding. People who buy pedigrees from responsible ethical breeders are not the source of the thousands of unwanted litters every season (check the cat breeding thread for details of lots of "oops" litters). Lazy stingy and ditzy people who couldn't be bothered to spay or neuter are the root of the problem.


----------



## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

Would she say the same about dogs?


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

yes i know - well aware of oops litters - but apart from them there are still more cats than homes

I have never considered getting a ped cat so was just wondering how and why it is justified -


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Jansheff said:


> Would she say the same about dogs?


yes she would - she has 2 rescue dogs too and an army of other rescued animals


----------



## zippie161 (Jan 21, 2012)

I wouldn't say im 'against' breeding cats as i understand some people do want specific breeds but I personally wouldn't buy one (especially at the prices some go for!) because there are so many cats in shelters/fosters who need rescuing, all the cats ive ever had have been either rescue cats or ive taken in before knowing they would end up in a shelter.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I am for breeding cats as there will always be somebody who wants a certain type of cat, with moggies there is more uncertainty of how they will turn out. Generally speaking, somebody who goes to the trouble of researching a breed, researching a responsible breeder and paying hundreds of pounds is not likely to be the type that dumps it at the first opportunity or let it mate with any old cat and have kittens. 

Having said that, both of my cats come from CP, we didnt have the money at the time to spend on a pedigree cat and the breeder I wanted to go with wouldnt sell one to us as we wanted it to be outdoor/indoor so we decided to go down the rescue route. I prefer to know at least a basic health history of my cats which is why I chose rescue over free kittens in newspapers etc. 

Nobody should feel pressured to go to a rescue, it is a shame that cats are taken into a rescue, especially for the genuine ones but a lot are just people who I am sure got bored and I dont think other people should be blamed for that. 

When people heard about us wanting a pedigree there was all sorts of "but there are lots of cats needing homes in rescues" My response as harsh as it sound was "that isnt my problem" because at the end of the day I didnt put them there and if I want a particular breed for whatever reason it is my right to get one.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There is one argument against which I can guarantee has no merit. Any suggestion that people who choose to buy a pedigree kitten would have a moggy instead if there was no choice is utterly spurious. Breed characteristics are as much to do with character as looks and it's this that attracts my buyers to the breed. I've never had one kitten buyer who just wanted a cat - they wanted a specific breed of cat. Buying a kitten from me does not deprive a rescue of a home. 99.999999999% of homeless cats, rescue cats, cats in general are the result of moggy owners not neutering their animals. Breeders of pedigrees are an easy target but stop all pedigree breeding tomorrow and it will make no difference at all.






























.


----------



## danniandnala (Aug 31, 2012)

Not against breeding breeders usually have homes lined up for them....its the irresponsible moggy owners who don't neuter and have a few litters yearly...
Neuter neuter neuter neuter neuter xxx


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Most definitely agree with Havoc's post above. Every kitten I have bred has gone to a home where the owner/family has actively researched breeds for the one they felt most suitably matched to them/their lifestyle. Obviously, the 'look' has to appeal also but this comes, in my experience, a close second. 

It's interesting to see another comment above about "the prices that they (pedigree cats) go for". Whilst it's not relevant to this discussion, kittens can cost a whole lot more to raise than an equally well and properly raised litter of pups. Yet you still see people raise an eyebrow at the price of a pedigree kitten yet not at the cost of a pedigree pup. It's odd how 'cat breeder' still, in some people's minds, conjures up an image of a slightly batty old lady with wall to wall cats... and yet pedigree dog breeder doesn't seem to hold a similar connotation.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> stop all pedigree breeding tomorrow and it will make no difference at all.


Agree with all of Havocs post, especially this last part.

There are so few pedigree kittens compared to moggies, I believe it's less than 3% of the cat population that stopping pedigree breeders will have no effect at all.

Also, as all my pet kittens are sold neutered I can guarantee they are not used in breeding.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Not only are pedigrees a very small percentage of the cat population, they are an even smaller percentage of those at rescues except obviously for the specialist breed rescues.

And of the alleged pedigrees in rescues, I wonder how many are genuine registered pedigrees and how many are the product of BYBs? We know that in some countries any shorthair pointed cat is labelled a Siamese and so on.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Great question Crispycat!! 

I would love a ped but have always had rescues just for the simple reason that there are so many needy cats out there and the peds will always find an owner more easily. In an ideal world we would have only responsible breeders and no cat excess. I think we need to focus on getting the excess moggie population and the bybs under control: sadly responsible breeders only contribute a tiny percentage of the total number of cats. 

The ethics of interbreeding and breeding for extreme features are a whole different issue, and I do have a problem with that.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

ah well her arguement to this was - people want a pedigree as a status symbol and its like choosing to have a designer baby rather than a god given one.

Her background to this arguement was that she lived in Madrid for a few years - and that the streets were ful of cats and dogs as rescues were few are far between nad yet all her neigbhours had expensively bred cats and dogs to compete with each other while others languished on the streets and she felt they couldnt really be animal lovers as they didnt give two hoots - they didnt so much as pick up their own animal litter even though they are provided with free poo bags 

so I can see where she's coming from!

.[/QUOTE]


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

meant to quote havocs post but it vanished off my post above!


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Tao2 said:


> Great question Crispycat!!
> 
> I would love a ped but have always had rescues just for the simple reason that there are so many needy cats out there and the peds will always find an owner more easily. In an ideal world we would have only responsible breeders and no cat excess. I think we need to focus on getting the excess moggie population and the bybs under control: sadly responsible breeders only contribute a tiny percentage of the total number of cats.
> 
> The ethics of interbreeding and breeding for extreme features are a whole different issue, and I do have a problem with that.


excellent point! I suppose and really the crux of the matter - the ethics!


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

crispycat said:


> ah well her arguement to this was - people want a pedigree as a status symbol and its like choosing to have a designer baby rather than a god given one.
> 
> Her background to this arguement was that she lived in Madrid for a few years - and that the streets were ful of cats and dogs as rescues were few are far between nad yet all her neigbhours had expensively bred cats and dogs to compete with each other while others languished on the streets and she felt they couldnt really be animal lovers as they didnt give two hoots - they didnt so much as pick up their own animal litter even though they are provided with free poo bags
> 
> so I can see where she's coming from!


How many pedigrees were there, and how many street cats & dogs? Do people in Spain routinely neuter their pets? I bet it's exactly the same problem - people don't neuter, or neuter too late, plus in the UK a lot of ferals get treated to TNR.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

I agree that it is a status thing, and I think you responsible breeders are being naïve if you think that everyone who buys a kitten from you is doing it for the love of the breed and not just as a status item. This may be more of an issue for dogs but definitely happens with cats too, and it's those ped cats that end up in rescues when superceded by a new status symbol be it a dog/baby/job in Saudi Arabia.....

Edit: Sorry having reread that, worded it badly: It is sometimes a status thing, I'm sure most ped owners get them for all the right reasons.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Tao2 said:


> I agree that it is a status thing, and I think you responsible breeders are being naïve if you think that everyone who buys a kitten from you is doing it for the love of the breed and not just as a status item. This may be more of an issue for dogs but definitely happens with cats too, and it's those ped cats that end up in rescues when superceded by a new status symbol be it a dog/baby/job in Saudi Arabia.....


and this is exactly why the discussion started as one of her friends was thinking of getting a pedigree as "it was cute and kids would love it" even though this poor cat would be locked in a large cage all day outside incase of theft!! :

This person clearly hadn't done any research on breeds!


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Her background to this arguement was that she lived in Madrid for a few years - and that the streets were ful of cats and dogs as rescues were few are far between


What's that got to do with pedigree breeders though? Stopping pedigree breeding wouldn't suddenly result in rescues springing up.

The other argument against pedigrees in general is the assumption that they are 'inbred'. It's a term used in ignorance when any comparison is being made with moggies. While ethical breeders can and do ensure they don't mate cats which are closely related the same is not true of wandering mogs. They don't wander far, there will be only one or two entire toms on any housing estate or in any given area and it's inevitable that very quickly resulting unplanned kittens will be the result of father/daughter or brother/sister matings. Ignorance of lineage can never be a reason to feel morally superior but for some reason it is oft cited as one.


----------



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't see peds as status items but do agree that looks count. Pedigrees look 'special' and 'pretty' and that might be a reason why people go for them. I chose a pedigree because I like 'fat' cats and I don't like pointy faces. Furthermore, I wanted a really sweet, dependent cat so I ended up getting a British Shorthair. 

In my case, if I hadn't found a pedigree, I would have probably adopted a moggie but that would have been the end of it (2 cats). Instead, now I have 3 and will probably have more soon as I discovered an interest for breeding (responsibly). Besides that, when I searching for a kitten, I could NOT find a moggie kitten. The rescues didn't have any and the ones on craiglist/community boards were 80 or even 100 euros (not vaccinated, 9 weeks etc.). It was during this search on the community boards etc. that I first saw a picture of a BSH and fell in love. 

I support animal shelters/rescues but I really do despise people who have accidental litters (not even accidental, as it is a given since the cats weren't neutered!) so I now think that getting a kitten from them is just supporting this!


----------



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

crispycat said:


> and this is exactly why the discussion started as one of her friends was thinking of getting a pedigree as "it was cute and kids would love it" even though this poor cat would be locked in a large cage all day outside incase of theft!! :
> 
> This person clearly hadn't done any research on breeds!


Any good pedigree breeder wouldn't allow any of their kittens to go out nor be locked in a cage anyway Plus most have to go through rigourous 'interviews' before breeders agree to let them have the kitten (I have minimum standards when it comes to food fed and such for example). However, this is probably only for the countries like UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany etc. where animal welfare is at a high standard.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> This person clearly hadn't done any research on breeds!


Which is why any half decent breeder will refuse her. I (gently) refuse around three enquiries for every one I accept.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

with all due respect to breeders - I would still like to hear why some cats should be bred rather than pointing at moggies and their accidental litters!


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Well, wouldn't responsible pedigree breeders have their cats tested for hereditary diseases? And bred for good bone structure, proportion, general good health? If I were ever to get a pedigree, that would be the main reason for me: that at least, said cat would have a better chance of being free of some of these diseases, at least. I think the risk of inbreeding is equally high with many moggie litters. Kittens rescued from feral colonies, for instance, are often inbred as the colonies are closed to new cats. Serial moggie "breeders" often have brother and sisters/ fathers/daughters living together and breeding. The local tom that gets hold of yet another female "escapee" is also likely local to the area and may be related. It's not as if any care is taken by perpetrators of "accidental" litters to widen the gene pool.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I would still like to hear why some cats should be bred rather than pointing at moggies and their accidental litters!


Pure numbers.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

This is an argument that has been on here many times before and it doesn't matter what is said you can't change people's minds. If they feel that having a pedigree cat is a status symbol and that all owners of peds never pick up their dog poo etc (must remember to stop doing that ) and keep cats in cages in case of theft (must remember to do that as well ) and are snooty b*tches then we can't change that view. 

I COULD invite that person to my house to see how that isn't true - but actually I wouldn't want them to step through the front door as our views are so polarised. 

Peds makes up 3% of the feline population; what happens in Spain isn't what happens here; many ped breeders also have moggies; ped breeders most often take back their own cats when owners find they can't keep them so not adding to the 'rescue' population; many rescues won't home to very good people for obscure reasons (me for example as my hubby is military, and despite the fact he could be called to die for his country a lot of rescues think we routinely abandon cats and dogs every time we move and are the scum of the earth) - should we be denied a cat because of hubbies job?; many people are allergic to moggies but not peds should they be denied a cat too?; is it not better to buy from reputable breeders that raise their kittens well etc rather than buying a fraudulently advertised kittens at immense prices unwell and far too young and perpetuating the cycle of bybs?

Looks count - but even in moggies - everyone prefers a certain look. I love black cats, many don't. I love long haired cats, many don't. I don't really prefer white with small splodges of colour but I've owned cats like that. I LUUUURRRRVE torties - don't have a single one in my house at the moment. I AM SO led by looks! 

What I dislike about these conversations is the judgement of those that have never even met me or discussed ethics sensibly with me: if you can have a deep and profound conversation sensibly with me where you prove you are as ethical as I am on many aspects of life (not just cat breeding) I might be swayed to listen to arguments against ped breeding. But until then . . . . walk on by, please.

EDIT: why should people not only choose the unethical bybs? - because it's ethically wrong - letting your underage cat cat out to be impregnated by two or three males (one of whom could be her brother or her father) with no thought about diseases, or genetics. Selling those kittens at 6 weeks old, flea ridden with a huge worm burden and cat flu - is ethically wrong. Just because you don't want a ped doesn't mean you condone breeding of cats in such an unethical manner.


----------



## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

I Visited with my friend yesterday who breeds Siamese and has done since 1998 so a good while. For her 'lines' are very important as all breeders know. She lost one of her older studs the other month ( about 10 years old) so these kittens she has now are very important to her, to enable her to continue the family tree.With Each generation she is constantly striving to improve the breed. Doesn't just stick a male and female together to get kittens to sell. It's a heck of a lot more than that. 

As for the new slaves having choosing pedigrees as a status symbol! What a load of rubbish. When you choose to have a pedigree over going to a rescue shelters it's because you know what you are getting. You know the temperament, you generally just know how the next 16 years will go. Especially if you've had this breed in your life for a while.


----------



## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Personally I don't think its a status thing ... I would say ppl that wish to purchase a ped from a reputable breeder do so because they know that it has been bred correctly and tested for everything under the Sun and been socializing in the correct manner ... we breeders can guarantee that every kitten that leaves us has been bred ethically.. temperment also cones into it too.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

spid said:


> This is an argument that has been on here many times before and it doesn't matter what is said you can't change people's minds. If they feel that having a pedigree cat is a status symbol and that all owners of peds never pick up their dog poo etc (must remember to stop doing that ) and keep cats in cages in case of theft (must remember to do that as well ) and are snooty b*tches then we can't change that view.
> 
> I COULD invite that person to my house to see how that isn't true - but actually I wouldn't want them to step through the front door as our views are so polarised.
> 
> ...


spid
1. i am sorry and angered to hear about rescues attitudes towards you - sadly have heard this many times before.

2. I am not sure whether you specifically mean me in terms of condoning - I am not condoning anyone as I made clear in my first post.

3. Really just wanted to have a sensible discussion and not sit judgement on either side.


----------



## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

I think people do pay for the look of a breed as well as the temperament and I actually don't have a problem with this.

It seems a shame though that ethical breeders and the people who buy the pedigree kittens are being judged as terrible people because they aren't now cleaning up the mess made by back yard breeders. In an ideal world every moggy would be spayed and not have unplanned litters. I think its wrong to expect somebody who wants a pedigree kitten or a breeder of pedigree cats, to be blamed or held responsible for the actions of others.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Not 'you' but plural general populous 'you'. However, you (singular Crispycat) did say why not get a kitten from an accidental litter instead.

As I said these arguments never get anywhere - and just get people's backs up. I get very angry at people assuming (general populous you) that because I breed a) I make a lot of money - nope lost lots last year, b) sell at an amazingly high price - not when you add up all that's involved I sell at a loss ad c) am an upper class rich cow with nothing better to do - only interested in status etc. Really pees me off.

Before people (general populous people) start pointing the finger at reputable pedigree breeders they should go and look at the some of the conditions those moggies kittens are kept in, how many people there are that are deliberately breeding moggies for money and ripping off the public. £100+ for a moggy sold at 6 weeks with no health tests, no vacs, no worming, etc is appalling.'Rare' colours extra when it's fever coat, no come back, no breeder support for the rest of the cat's life. That's where the problem lies.

The most important figure though is 3%, we account for 3% that's all. A drop in the ocean.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

According to my vet they see one pedigree for around every 300 cats so in my area pedigrees don't make up 3% but 0.3%.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

I really do understand why ethical breeders would get upset about this.

Although I have always adopted from rescues I would never tell someone where to get their cat from although I do actively discourage adoptions from "free to good home sites" and/or anything that reeks of a byb!

I really don't think sis in law was having a go at ethical breeders but was just looking objectively at ratio of cats/homes given the situation - as no matter how much is said there will still be folk who don't neuter and then ofcourse there are the feral colonies.

I think her arguement was also more about why cats/dogs etc are bred like designer babies - as it is unethical to do that with humans!

Getting angry gets us nowhere really as I think objectively speaking there will always be eithical issues for and against.


----------



## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Well said spid... If they only knew .. make money .. pmsl.. sorry yeah forget we only feed supermarket food and cheap litter and jobs a good UN...

I don't think ppl realise the hard work that goes behind breeding pedigree cats, the cost, planning, testing,showing and vets and time ...

Ppl also don't think of all the extra bits we offer

After care, insurance, and registration etc

Do you get all that with a mogg.. nope,,!


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Cosmills said:


> Well said spid... If they only knew .. make money .. pmsl.. sorry yeah forget we only feed supermarket food and cheap litter and jobs a good UN...
> 
> I don't think ppl realise the hard work that goes behind breeding pedigree cats, the cost, planning, testing,showing and vets and time ...
> 
> ...


i didnt question cost at all - realise that there are huge costs involved

as for after care,insurance etc shouldnt that apply to any responsible cat owner?

To me personally numbers don't matter a great deal - was more interested in the ethics.


----------



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

At the end of the day, it's about education and money. 

When something costs a lot of money (like a pedigree. Good breeders don't make money but no matter what, it is a significant amount of money in the sense that you can buy a washing machine or more), people think twice about getting one. They do more research, take care of it better and so on. It is a conscious decision which requires lots of emails, a lot more effort (travelling 2 hours to visit the breeder and to meet the kitten and then later again, to pick it up), waiting (months or at the very least, weeks) and so on. 

A moggie you get for free or almost free with minimal effort, people think "whatever, it's just a cat and frankly, it's lucky to even get fed". 

Insurance (or at least proper access to medical care), vaccinations, good food whatever should be for all cats, not just pedigrees but unfortunately, for many people, the expense for 'just a moggie' is not worth it. Actually, it's not the fact that it's 'just a moggie' but it's more that the majority of people who take in a moggie don't take the whole cat pet thing 'seriously'. Not sure if you understand my point but hope you do!


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

"I think her arguement was also more about why cats/dogs etc are bred like designer babies - as it is unethical to do that with humans!"





My breed are a naturally occuring animal with a strong cultural heritage going back hundreds of years in their native country and historic spiritual and religious links...... not exactly 'designer babies'????

Surely it would be far more unethical to not recognise and celebrate their diversity and unique traits and refuse them the right to carry on for future generations to love and appreciate......hence pedigree breeding is needed to preserve them or the breed would be lost.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

crispycat said:


> and this is exactly why the discussion started as one of her friends was thinking of getting a pedigree as "it was cute and kids would love it" even though this poor cat would be locked in a large cage all day outside incase of theft!! :
> 
> This person clearly hadn't done any research on breeds!


Nor on cats in general. That's no way to look after any cat.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

crispycat said:


> i didnt question cost at all - realise that there are huge costs involved
> 
> as for after care,insurance etc shouldnt that apply to any responsible cat owner?
> 
> To me personally numbers don't matter a great deal - was more interested in the ethics.


Well if you're after ethics - then you should only ever buy from a ped breeder or go to a rescue and NEVER EVER buy from someone who let their moggy out and had an oops litter. If the market was taken away - there wouldn't be a rescue problem. If all kittens were sold on or taken from rescue ready neutered there wouldn't be any more kittens.

The ethical reasons have already been gone into.

As for designer babies . . .well again . . . that's what a minute percentage of babies that are 'made' (or is she talking IVF) but we can't actually choose for eye or hair colour etc, that's science fiction, only screening out hereditary life threatening diseases. Sounds like your SIL is one to avoid personally. Likes to spout off about things she doesn't know about.


----------



## Mark Walden (Mar 31, 2013)

I can really only account for dogs but I've been to many pet shows and seen a whole range of Pedigree Cats all shapes and sizes!

Of course with limited knowledge I feel that there isn't a problem in my mind. Providing the breeding is ethical and nothing should be bred that would enhance any health problems. Of course with any industry breeding should be controlled to an extent.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Dog body shapes have been altered far more than cats - apparently dogs have the largest range in body size of any mammal which hasn't been to their advantage.


----------



## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm not sure that Pedigree cats are a viable status symbol - they are usually indoor cats so unless the owner is actively showing people a photo and saying this is my cat - the only people that know about it are likely to be friends and family. The majority of people I know are vaguely aware I have cats but nothing else. 

With the best will in the world, your sister in law sounds like she made a big sweeping statement based on something she read ithe Daily Fail. 

Anyone that breeds unethically should be stopped in my view. Thats backyard breeders, oops litters from lazy or misinformed owners, people that buy a Ped (inactive) and then sneakily mate it to sell xkittens. Breeders looking to improve the health and lineage of a breed are not the enemy here, nor are the owners looking for a particular trait or breed characteristic. 

Designer babies don't really exist to be honest, as Spid says choosing features your baby will have is science fiction. I certainly don't see IVF, IUI or any other assisted conception as creating a designer baby.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

i don't think she meant designer babies in that they exist - she was trying to say that infact they don't so why do people do it with cats.

as for the daily fail - can assure u she doesn't get anywhere near one - she is a uni maths professor - so i don't think a complete numpty or ill informed lol! just has an opinion!


----------



## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

crispycat said:


> i didnt question cost at all - realise that there are huge costs involved as for after care,insurance etc shouldnt that apply to any responsible cat owner? To me personally numbers don't matter a great deal - was more interested in the ethics.


But the cost does come into ethical breeding, whether breeders choose to do something or not has a impact ..

I was taking about breeder aftercare and the things we do to ensure your kitten has the best possible start with its new owners , cos once then kitten leaves the breeder a number of things could happen, so we like to give free insurance to put new owners piece of mind, if the new owners don't continue with insurance that's up to them.. but its something I would strongly advise they do..

There will always be moggs in high numbers


----------



## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

crispycat said:


> i don't think she meant designer babies in that they exist - she was trying to say that infact they don't so why do people do it with cats.
> 
> as for the daily fail - can assure u she doesn't get anywhere near one - she is a uni maths professor - so i don't think a complete numpty or ill informed lol! just has an opinion!


I didn't say anything about her being a numpty - I said it sounded as though she was making a big sweeping statement based on something she had read in the Daily Fail. I am happy to change it to the Guardian 

Just out of interest, and I am not trying to be difficult (please read this in a nice, smiley tone ). What does she think about breeds such as Siamese, Persians and British Shorthairs being allowed to die out?

Crispycat what is your opinion on it all?


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

I've had/have both moggies and pedigree cats. Never once have I felt my peds were status symbols. I've never told any friends or family I have pedigree cats, and really the only ones who know are those on PF. I was fortunate to have a probable Manx find me who. I fell in love with the breed's look and temperament and when he died, I did a lot of research and found a registered breeder. I have bought three purebred Manx from her over the past 14 years. To me they are like any other cat only with a documented bloodline, predictable temperament and guaranteed health. 

Without the responsible breeding of these wonderful cats, breeds would become extinct and that would be a shame.

Manx are a natural breed native to the Isle of Man. They are rare and indeed in danger of becoming extinct without those who dedicate their lives for the love and enhancement of the breed. The island once ran a government run cattery for this purpose.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> i don't think she meant designer babies in that they exist - she was trying to say that infact they don't so why do people do it with cats.


They do in as much as we all make deliberate choices who we mate with and those choices are made on exactly the same criteria as any animal breeding. Humans react positively to those they see as a complement to themselves with traits they would like in their own offspring. The only humans which are bred truly randomly are the IVF babies where the donor is completely unknown - and then it isn't really the case because donors are screened.

Choice is always there, even with rescue animals so why it's seen as so worthy always escapes me. Very few (if any) people go to a rescue facility and just ask for the animal which has been there the longest regardless of looks, age or temperament.


----------



## danniandnala (Aug 31, 2012)

Aurelie said:


> I didn't say anything about her being a numpty - I said it sounded as though she was making a big sweeping statement based on something she had read in the Daily Fail. I am happy to change it to the Guardian
> 
> Just out of interest, and I am not trying to be difficult (please read this in a nice, smiley tone ). What does she think about breeds such as Siamese, Persians and British Shorthairs being allowed to die out?
> 
> Crispycat what is your opinion on it all?


Was going to ask the same. ...what was your 'opinion' when your sil said hers xx


----------



## vivien (Jul 20, 2009)

Tao2 said:


> I agree that it is a status thing, and I think you responsible breeders are being naïve if you think that everyone who buys a kitten from you is doing it for the love of the breed and not just as a status item. This may be more of an issue for dogs but definitely happens with cats too, and it's those ped cats that end up in rescues when superceded by a new status symbol be it a dog/baby/job in Saudi Arabia.....


You are so wrong I have a moggy and 2 Ragdolls soon getting an MC. But I feed 4 strays every day I love cats whether they are moggies or peds I just love the breeds I have it is not a status thing as no one but me and the pictures I share on here see them they are my family and I love them very much. My boys are spoilt and have everything they could possibly want and I wouldn't want it any other way. It's irresponsible people who don't get their pets spayed or neutered that are the problem not the breeders. Simba was neutered by his breeder before I got him. Sorry but your post has made me cross
Viv xx
Edit sorry I meant to say that 2 of the strays I feed were deliberately left behind when their owners moved one was born in the compound while the new houses were being built and the last boy just won't accept being in a house as someone has tried to home him and even put a collar on him but he has been on the streets to long to accept their home. Also the CPL will not help these boys either.


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

crispycat said:


> i don't think she meant designer babies in that they exist - she was trying to say that infact they don't so why do people do it with cats.
> 
> as for the daily fail - can assure u she doesn't get anywhere near one - she is a uni maths professor - so i don't think a complete numpty or ill informed lol! just has an opinion!


Does your sister in law read the Telegraph then....see below for a very infactual and shockingly innacurate article on pedigrees.

Designer breeds are new cats' whiskers - Telegraph

Cant believe you Selkirk breeders perm your cats!!!! How do you get them to sit still with the rollers in!!!! 

Especially like the part about them 'costing thousands of pounds'....presume this is the cost to breeder to keep them healthy and happy as definitly not the average cost to purchaser!!!!

If your sister in law is a bit of a whiz in the calculus department she should be able to quickly see what the correlation between a reasonably steady pedigree population and a spiking non-ped deluge into rescues and shelters actually equals....the need for neutering of non-peds to bring numbers more in to line with the numbers of homes available.....uni lecturer myself - Management!!!!


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

lisajjl1 said:


> Does your sister in law read the Telegraph then....see below for a very infactual and shockingly innacurate article on pedigrees.
> 
> Designer breeds are new cats' whiskers - Telegraph
> 
> ...


That's what I did wrong with Bomber - forgot to perm her hair! What a hoot!


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Some breeds have been around for hundreds of years. Should we just allow them to become extinct?


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

spid said:


> That's what I did wrong with Bomber - forgot to perm her hair! What a hoot!


Trying to get my meezers in for a Marcel Wave......going to call them Kinkies, sell loads, buy a yacht and a small Caribean Island and sack the day job off!


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Cant believe you Selkirk breeders perm your cats!!!!


:lol: :lol:
I can't really see the point they are trying to make. All the figures are from the GCCF registration lists which are meaningless and then they go on to mention the Scottish Fold -a breed the GCCF won't recognise.

I'm also very confused at the mention of LaPerms on this 'designer' list. I don't know much about them but I certainly haven't heard of them commanding high prices or being known for particular health problems. Would love input from someone who knows.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

vivien said:


> You are so wrong I have a moggy and 2 Ragdolls soon getting an MC. But I feed 4 strays every day I love cats whether they are moggies or peds I just love the breeds I have it is not a status thing as no one but me and the pictures I share on here see them they are my family and I love them very much. My boys are spoilt and have everything they could possibly want and I wouldn't want it any other way. It's irresponsible people who don't get their pets spayed or neutered that are the problem not the breeders. Simba was neutered by his breeder before I got him. Sorry but your post has made me cross
> Viv xx
> Edit sorry I meant to say that 2 of the strays I feed were deliberately left behind when their owners moved one was born in the compound while the new houses were being built and the last boy just won't accept being in a house as someone has tried to home him and even put a collar on him but he has been on the streets to long to accept their home. Also the CPL will not help these boys either.


OK, OK, I admit it, I've just reread my own post and it comes across completely wrong. I meant to say that pedigree cats ARE SOMETIMES bought as status symbols. I appreciate that may have got the backs up of lots of ped owners who adore their cats. As I said in an earlier post, I would love one myself.

The fact is that SOME people buy a pedigree cat or dog because they think it says something about them and not because they love the animal. 2 of my neighbours have rehomed their pedigree cats ( a maine coon and a ragdoll) because they replaced it one with a dog the others a baby. To see a cat as an item that can be passed on when something 'better' comes along is disgusting, I know their owners they are not cat lovers, they just wanted something to show off and name drop. But apologies am not tarring all ped owners with that brush, just worded my post badly....soz....


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'm not sure that Pedigree cats are a viable status symbol


Even if they are in some cases
a. what's it got to do with anyone else as long as the cat is loved and properly cared for?
and 
b. how is a rescue mog any less a status symbol if the owner uses it to try and make the world think they are some sort of hero?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> To see a cat as an item that can be passed on when something 'better' comes along is disgusting


Who could disagree with that  It happens mostly with non-peds though. That's why the rescues are full of them.


----------



## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Well I must be common as muck with my BSH,s top status... 

Am an owner of an entire male, I must have the top status of being stinky too ... Bonus lol


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

havoc said:


> Who could disagree with that  It happens mostly with non-peds though. That's why the rescues are full of them.


Sadly it happens all too often with moggies, but as you said yourself earlier: people who come to you for a pedigree kittens would not want a moggy. The people I am referring to would never dream of taking on a moggy. For them, it's all about the label.


----------



## vivien (Jul 20, 2009)

Tao2 said:


> OK, OK, I admit it, I've just reread my own post and it comes across completely wrong. I meant to say that pedigree cats ARE SOMETIMES bought as status symbols. I appreciate that may have got the backs up of lots of ped owners who adore their cats. As I said in an earlier post, I would love one myself.
> 
> The fact is that SOME people buy a pedigree cat or dog because they think it says something about them and not because they love the animal. 2 of my neighbours have rehomed their pedigree cats ( a maine coon and a ragdoll) because they replaced it one with a dog the others a baby. To see a cat as an item that can be passed on when something 'better' comes along is disgusting, I know their owners they are not cat lovers, they just wanted something to show off and name drop. But apologies am not tarring all ped owners with that brush, just worded my post badly....soz....


 I can understand your point of view I would be angry too, to hear of an animal being rehomed for another  as I said before I feed these poor strays because owners moved and left them tomtom I don't know where he came from but he is the one that won't accept home life. As for the boy that was born in the compound bless him I cannot get near him to put some flea drops on him even he has that much lack of trust.

Viv xx


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The people I am referring to would never dream of taking on a moggy. For them, it's all about the label.


Even if it is, the reasons for wanting that particular label can be many and varied just as with anything else. My car could be considered a status symbol but I didn't buy it for the benefit of the neighbours nor do I care what they think of it. I bought it for me because it's what I wanted.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Aurelie said:


> Guardian


Grauniad, please!


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

How about we compromise and say that getting a cat (pedigree OR moggy) for WHATEVER reason and treating it like an inanimate object, that can be replaced on the whim of the owner, is not the right way to behave?

Am off now to start yet another thread boasting about how heroic I am......


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

A good reputable breeder will take back a cat if the owner is stupid enough to 'replace' it. ANd curse herself for not realising what that person was like initially. The peds that end up in rescue aren't because the reputable breeder was remiss but because the owners either a) didn't get it from a reputable breeder in the first place or b) couldn't be bothered to contact the breeder. I would sincerely hope that if any of mine ever ended up in rescue the rescue would seek me out and give them back - but . . a lot of rescues rub their hands at the chance of a ped rescue as they could charge more for it.

Out of the people that ring me - about 60% make it onto my waiting list, of those that email it's less than 10%. Then they have to pass my interrogation and a good 20% don't get any further than that (having been grilled beforehand also). I would say for every 10 serious enquiries I have I home 1 kitten. SOme leave before the kittens are born (had one only last week)- some to bybs and some to reputable breeders, some just lose contact, etc

For me my status symbol object is my camera (if I *had* to choose) - as in I had to have that brand etc not a cheap version. With everything else I couldn't care less as long as it does the job it's made for.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Tao2 said:


> Sadly it happens all too often with moggies, but as you said yourself earlier: people who come to you for a pedigree kittens would not want a moggy. The people I am referring to would never dream of taking on a moggy.* For them, it's all about the label.*


I think people who are only looking for a label would buy from a back yard breeder vs a registered breeder. They are not looking for the breed but rather as you say a label. And most responsible breeders state in the contract they are to be contacted before any re homing is considered. These homes are also vetted before the cat is sold to hopefully circumvent anyone looking for just a label.

There are also those who are disappointed to hear what they think might be a pedigree and find out they aren't. To me that's crazy. If they love the cat what the hell difference does it make? Why do people insist on placing their cat into a neat and tidy category when chances are almost nil they have any pedigree blood in them?

No one has addressed the extinction issue regarding cat breeds.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

havoc said:


> Choice is always there, even with rescue animals so why it's seen as so worthy always escapes me. Very few (if any) people go to a rescue facility and just ask for the animal which has been there the longest regardless of looks, age or temperament.


Definitely not, I went with an age in mind and I purposely viewed those cats that fit the age criteria and from there went with personality.

I do really want to go back and ask them for the cat that has been there the longest and bring it home however the likelihood of that happening is pretty slim as I am not allowed a 3rd cat and the cat may not fit in with our home.

That again is another criteria those who already own cats have which is why many veer towards pedigrees who are known to be sociable with other cats as a general breed standard.

Just looking on the CP website, so many come in pairs or can only go as a solo cat or outdoor home. For someone wanting to add just one cat to their current feline family, wanting to keep it indoors then many of the cats on that list would be unsuitable.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

for those asking what my opinion is well I am still a bit unsure - I posted this question here as I'd never really thought about it mainly as we have never considered getting a pedigree -so I have been listening to what everyone has to say.

I haven't read all the later posts as i am just finishing a work project and will come back a bit later hopefully with an informed opinion!


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Most definitely agree with Havoc's post above. Every kitten I have bred has gone to a home where the owner/family has actively researched breeds for the one they felt most suitably matched to them/their lifestyle. Obviously, the 'look' has to appeal also but this comes, in my experience, a close second.
> 
> It's interesting to see another comment above about "the prices that they (pedigree cats) go for". Whilst it's not relevant to this discussion, kittens can cost a whole lot more to raise than an equally well and properly raised litter of pups. Yet you still see people raise an eyebrow at the price of a pedigree kitten yet not at the cost of a pedigree pup. It's odd how 'cat breeder' still, in some people's minds, conjures up an image of a slightly batty old lady with wall to wall cats... and yet pedigree dog breeder doesn't seem to hold a similar connotation.


There is an explanation why dog breeds are more generally accepted..

Dog breeds were developed for a particular purpose: retriever dogs, sled dogs, guard dogs, rat hunters, rabbit hunters, game hunters, etc. the specific characteristics of a breed ultimately come from their use as working dogs.
Cats were just mousers and ratters, no specialization required.
The exception being temple cats and dogs, which were bred for their looks, which were supposed to have relevance to their being sacred....

Most cat breeds were developed purely for their looks by concentrating and exaggerating the natural diversity of cats from various regions.

But cat breeds have their own characteristics, too, and some are more suited to certain lifestyles than others.

Another point is that some people do not want to take the risk of getting a traumatized, diseased or otherwise unhealthy cat. You can never be totally sure, of course, but good, ethical breeders will do everything within their power to produce healthy litters from healthy parents. So the chance of getting a cat with unknown and unexpected issues is much smaller.

So there will always be people who will not have a rescue cat, but will buy from a breeder they trust.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Let's not forget there are several breeds that are a local variety of a domesticated cat which developed largely by natural processes and adaptation to the natural environment it lived in. Included in this category are the British Short Hair, Maine Coon and Manx. There are several others.

Not all purebreds have been selectively bred to deliberately conform to a standard of traits. Some occur naturally.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Toby Tyler said:


> Let's not forget there are several breeds that are a local variety of a domesticated cat which developed largely by natural processes and adaptation to the natural environment it lived in. Included in this category are the British Short Hair, Maine Coon and Manx. There are several others.
> 
> Not all purebreds have been selectively bred to deliberately conform to a standard of traits. Some occur naturally.


BSH were created by crossing domestic cats with Persians. You can still see many of the original Persian features in the BSH, what they were like before they were bred to show the extreme feartures, and it is where the long hair gene originates from.


----------



## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

I have a lovely photo of my two cats at work and love it when people ask me about them and tell them they are Oriental Shorthairs, Siamese in pyjamas! Does that make them status symbols? Possibly, but frankly, I don't give a flying cats tea towel holder what anyone else thinks 

Obviously, I am for breeding pedigree cats for all the reasons already stated. :biggrin:


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> BSH were created by crossing domestic cats with Persians. You can still see many of the original Persian features in the BSH, what they were like before they were bred to show the extreme feartures, and* it is where the long hair gene originates from*.


I believe you might be confusing BSH with British Long Hair, ...

"Unlike that of many breeds, the origin of the British Shorthair is not lost in legends and myths. Its ancestral stock traces directly back to the domestic cats taken from Egypt to Europe. The Romans, in particular, greatly valued the cat's abilities to safeguard corn and other foods from rodents. The fact that some emperors, such as Augustus (63BC-14AD), were cat lovers no doubt enhanced their status and ensured their onward popularity. As the conquering Roman legions marched through Europe, cats were taken in their wake to protect the homes and military food stores from rodents. It is not known exactly when the cat arrived in Britain. The most likely time would be after the second century AD, by which time the Roman colonisation in Britain was well established"

Taken from the following link: The British Shorthair - breed characteristics


----------



## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Lunabuma said:


> I have a lovely photo of my two cats at work and love it when people ask me about them and tell them they are Oriental Shorthairs, Siamese in pyjamas! Does that make them status symbols? Possibly, but frankly, *I don't give a flying cats tea towel holder* what anyone else thinks
> 
> Obviously, I am for breeding pedigree cats for all the reasons already stated. :biggrin:


Ooh my life is missing one of them!


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

I have been thinking a bit more about what my point of view is - i have never been so on the fence before! 

generally in life I form my opinions based on personal experience,others experience, studies and any form of intelligent information.

Saying that whatever my opinion is I do always try and appreciate and accept that there will be opinions that differ completely from mine and that is the beauty of life - wouldn't the world be a boring place if we all agreed on everything! 

I think for me what it boils down to is given both options would I consider adopting a pedigree cat and for me the answer is no. 

I may be quite influenced in my decision by living in places on this earth where I saw both humans and animals living in horrific conditions so for me making an informed decision of bringing more animals into this world (or humans) is almost worse than bringing them in due to ignorance.

like i said this is a very personal opinion based on my life experience. Compared to some of the places I have lived in I think this would be considered one of those "first world issues" and just would not even arise.

again i respect everyones choice and opinion here and i hope you will accept mine - i don't expect you to agree ofcourse


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Toby Tyler said:


> I believe you might be confusing BSH with British Long Hair, ...


BSH are not descendants of the Egyptian Mau but of the original Persians, which may well have been imported via Egypt.

British longhair is just a variant of British shorthair, a recessive longhair gene which will occur in litters of BSH if both parents are carriers of the gene.
BLH isn't even universally recognized as a breed, and strictly speaking it isn't a separate breed, just like Scottish fold isn't a breed, strictly speaking. The difference is that the fold gene is dominant and the longhair gene is recessive. A BLH is per definition homozygous, while you should never breed a homozygous fold, as the fold gene also carries an immune deficiency syndrome that causes disability - sometimes quite severe - in homozygous cats.


----------



## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I have both two moggies and a pedigree cat, that's my choice and I prefer it that way.

I am for good and reputable breeders, breeding pedigree cats.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

oops meant to add in my above post - how much I have learnt from this post - especially from all you breeders! thank you for sharing have really enjoyed this thread - nothing like a healthy discussion!


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> BSH are not descendants of the Egyptian Mau but of the original Persians, which may well have been imported via Egypt.
> 
> British longhair is just a variant of British shorthair, a recessive longhair gene which will occur in litters of BSH if both parents are carriers of the gene.
> BLH isn't even universally recognized as a breed, and strictly speaking it isn't a separate breed, just like Scottish fold isn't a breed, strictly speaking. The difference is that the fold gene is dominant and the longhair gene is recessive. A BLH is per definition homozygous, while you should never breed a homozygous fold, as the fold gene also carries an immune deficiency syndrome that causes disability - sometimes quite severe - in homozygous cats.


BSH are considered a natural breed cat and were recognized as a breed long before they were bred with Persians to introduce the longhair gene... "Between 1914 and 1918 cross-breeding was done with Persians and the longhair gene was introduced. The shorthair cats were part of their own breeding programs whilst the longhair cats were made part of the Persian breeding programs."

Taken from...The British Shorthair Cat Breed

Cross breeding is no longer allowed.


----------



## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Jiskefet said:


> BSH are not descendants of the Egyptian Mau but of the original Persians, which may well have been imported via Egypt.
> 
> British longhair is just a variant of British shorthair, a recessive longhair gene which will occur in litters of BSH if both parents are carriers of the gene.
> BLH isn't even universally recognized as a breed, and strictly speaking it isn't a separate breed, just like Scottish fold isn't a breed, strictly speaking. The difference is that the fold gene is dominant and the longhair gene is recessive. A BLH is per definition homozygous, while you should never breed a homozygous fold, as the fold gene also carries an immune deficiency syndrome that causes disability - sometimes quite severe - in homozygous cats.


Correct....... Although the BSH colourpoint was crossed with Himalayan... Some BSH you can tell there Persian lines. Also this is mainly bred out ...


----------



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

crispycat said:


> I have been thinking a bit more about what my point of view is - i have never been so on the fence before!
> 
> generally in life I form my opinions based on personal experience,others experience, studies and any form of intelligent information.
> 
> ...


It's a choice and I see you've made yours You will not be judged nor flamed for it, just like one shouldn't be judged for opting for a pedigree. We all love cats and want the best for them (no matter the breed)


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Not read the rest of the responses yet but thought I'd offer my opinion 

I'm very much pro-rescue. I work in rescue, I see the neglect and the abandonment first hand and I often feel upset, angry and frustrated at the way animals are treated. Each and every cat, rabbit, dog that comes through our doors is deserving of a forever, loving home.

HOWEVER

I also advocate good pedigree breeders. It's an 'imbalance' according to many- they don't see how I can approve of both. But here's why:

*a) Temperament.
*
If I was to add another cat, I'd realistically need a cat with a predictable temperament. A cat who would tolerate Spooks and vice versa. He's a sensitive soul with a lot of behavioural issues. He needs a stable playmate (if any!)

*b) Preservation*

Many breeds have been around for hundreds of years- whether naturally occurring or not- and the thought of those breeds essentially dying out is awful. People are very passionate about their particular choice of breed and cannot imagine living without them.

*c) Lineage *

Knowing a cat's lineage is beneficial as you're able to see if there are any hereditary conditions (though of course, good breeders wouldn't breed from cats with known conditions anyway...)

*d) Rescue Restrictions*

Rehoming policies of many rescue centres are highly exclusive. People are rejected due to areas they live in or lifestyle- they need other options. Surely, a well bred ped from good lines is better than a BYB seeing an easy profit.

Breeders, for me, are not a problem. The ones who invest all their time, money and energy into doing it properly, to preserve a breed, and not for profit.

It's the ones who see cats as money-making opportunities you need to be concerned about. Unfortunately, I fear they'll always be in existence :frown2:


----------



## Velcro (May 20, 2013)

oggers86 said:


> I am for breeding cats as there will always be somebody who wants a certain type of cat, with moggies there is more uncertainty of how they will turn out. Generally speaking, somebody who goes to the trouble of researching a breed, researching a responsible breeder and paying hundreds of pounds is not likely to be the type that dumps it at the first opportunity or let it mate with any old cat and have kittens.
> .


This pretty much sums it up for me!

after a bit of research, we decided we wanted a ragdoll, as we were looking specifically for a laid back kitty that was affectionate - we ended up with Cloud who was the lovliest little thing ever (clearly too perfect as shes over rainbow bridge now ): )

we already have a moggy and although shes an indoor cat (She refuses to go any further than the garden lol) shes very independent and only really wants a fuss on her terms and for not very long

I dont think there is a problem with pedigree kitties, its not the (responsible)breeders fault there are so many irresponsible people out there - they shouldn't have people looking down their noses at them and nor should the people wanting pedigree kitties.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

There is also an unpleasant side to rescues, several of the big well known organizations are so crooked and corrupt I'd never support them.
Private rescues here often do a better job, kittens leave at a more appropriate age as well.

There are health issues in many rescues, herpes and cat flu being the main ones.
There are horrific conditions in some rescues, overcrowding, cats kept in cages, health issues due to lack of quarantine areas, I've seen conditions on par with the worst puppy mills, yet being a rescue excuses it.

Private moggy breeders continually adopt out underage kittens, who then tend to grow up with undesirable behaviors and are surrendered. 
There's people on here who adopt underage kittens "because that's the common age in this area" as though that makes it right, supply and demand...


My pedigrees, I was absolutely first drawn to the breed for its look, further research showed they had the personality and temperament I was looking for in a pet, which was also to be a show neuter - a hobby I was interested in.

If I went to a rescue I'd be drawn to certain looks, colour and markings, I don't see anything wrong with that.

My peds are not status symbols, nor have i come across pet buyers who think that way, not everyone who enquires gets a kitten from me, I'm not a pet shop.

I do have a rare breed, and it's actually much more work and expense than more common breeds (importing cats, promotion etc) more comparable to stupidity than something to brag over


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> There is also an unpleasant side to rescues, several of the big well known organizations are so crooked and corrupt I'd never support them.
> Private rescues here often do a better job, kittens leave at a more appropriate age as well.
> 
> There are health issues in many rescues, herpes and cat flu being the main ones.
> ...


I have to agree with this.

I know I'm biased, but the SAA where I volunteer is fantastic- there are strict quarantine rules, all animals are chipped, neutered, vaccinated, health checked etc. Also strictly no-kill (unless of course, they are unbearably poorly).

Now, we are full to the brim, and have many wanting to be put on our waiting lists due to our scrupulous procedures. A few local rescues refuse elderly or poorly cats. Many will euthanise healthy animals. As such, we tend to get a lot of oldies in, a lot with long-term health problems and many with behavioural issues (some are released into our feral colony).

Yes, rescuing a cat from one of these terrible places- who shouldn't be calling themselves 'rescue centres' in my view- will save them from a certain death (blunt but true). However, in the same way, should such centres be worthy of supporting any more than your typical BYB?


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Every species that has lived with humans has been selectively bred for characteristics that humans like. It is why we have friendly cats, year round eggs, cute dogs, pretty mice, very woolly sheep, shire horses and on and on. The same happens in agriculture. So I have no problems with things not being god-given.

Why breed pedigrees? To preserve those characteristics that please us. What is wrong with that?


----------



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

I'll just go and give my status symbols a snuggle before I go to bed then....

I am really happy that most people get a choice on whether to rescue or not - some of us dont get that choice.

Apparently if you live on a houseboat you are not fit to be a cat slave. Even moreso if you only have a catrun, and dont want to let them free roam.

Although, you would then be turned down because the bridge over the canal you live on has a school either side, so a lot of traffic.

Maybe I just shouldn't be allowed to have any cats because of where I live?

Luckily there are breeders of pedigree cats that think I am a good slave - because of the love and care I give my cats, the food I research, to make sure they have the best diet, and the consideration of outside space, even though I wont let them free roam.

But hey, I took away a home from a rescue cat (in a rescue that wont actually _let_ me rescue) so I am a bad person!

I will wear that badge with pride. Let me tell you, most breeders take a _lot_ more care, thought and consideration into where they let their cats go than most rescues.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Jonescat said:


> Every species that has lived with humans has been selectively bred for characteristics that humans like. It is why we have friendly cats, year round eggs, cute dogs, pretty mice, very woolly sheep, shire horses and on and on. The same happens in agriculture. So I have no problems with things not being god-given.
> 
> Why breed pedigrees? To preserve those characteristics that please us. What is wrong with that?


and this is what I meant by it perhaps being one of those first world issues


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

oh meant to ask one more thing why are cat owners referred to as slaves? not heard this before - i certainly would not consider myself anything of the sort - prefer to be their mommy


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

MCWillow said:


> I'll just go and give my status symbols a snuggle before I go to bed then....
> 
> I am really happy that most people get a choice on whether to rescue or not - some of us dont get that choice.
> 
> ...


I wasn't trying to discuss merits or demerits of rescues to justify pedigress cats! I am more than happy to accept that peoples values and judgements differ widely.

yes not all rescues are perfect - but then what is in this world?

with all due respect I find your post a bit defensive - "give my status symbol a snuggle" points can be made without the sarcasm


----------



## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

Having lived in Spain for 4 years, I can totally understand where crispycat's SIL is coming from. Before we moved here, I had plans to get 2 Burmese kittens when we reached the point of being cat-free. Now I know we will never be cat-free because there will always be another one that just turns up needing to be cared for, and even if we were, there's no way I could get a pedigree cat or dog when the rescues are overflowing, and there are so many strays out on the streets needing a decent meal and somewhere safe to sleep.

The vast majority of Spanish people don't neuter their animals, and won't take animals that have been neutered. The local rescue doesn't rehome to Spanish people for that reason. (In fact, most of the animals they rehome go out of the country because the British have a reputation here for just leaving their animals behind when they "go home" permanently.)

I do see some pedigree cats here, usually not neutered, and mixing with the strays in town. It's the same with dogs. Lots of people own small pedigree dogs, which they allow to roam, and - surprise, surprise - there are lots of small, mixed breed dogs living on the streets.

If crispycat's SIL has seen what we see here, then I'm not surprised she feels the way she does. However, I think she's taking what we would see as a cultural "problem" in Spain, and looking in the wrong place for the cause. I don't think what she saw in Spain has anything to do with breeders, or people's desire for pedigree animals. It has 2 causes:

1. Many Spanish people see animals as things rather than lives, leading to the attitude that a pet is equivalent to a piece of artwork of a handbag (something that you pay good money for), and an animal living on the street is vermin.

2. Catholicism is the main religion in Spain, and it discourages birth control (contraception for humans is not free in Spain). Therefore, animals are often not neutered because it's considered to be against God's will.

The problems here are not the same as in the UK. The end result is the same - overpopulation - but the cause of the overpopulation is different. Either way, I think breeders get fingers pointed at them unfairly because they're visible. Even if you just break it down by numbers, and don't take into account the kind of homes pedigree cats go to, the contribution ethical breeders make to the total population is small. The problem in the UK is one of education (making people aware of how important it is to neuter their cats) and probably some degree of regulation and enforcement to control bybs. The problem in Spain is a much deeper cultural and religious one, and explains why animal charities are able to do little more than clear up the mess.


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

crispycat said:


> and this is what I meant by it perhaps being one of those first world issues


Animal husbandry is one of the the behaviours that got humans out of hunter/gathering. Ethics are complex. All other things being equal, we will always choose the animal that best suits our personal or cultural aesthetic.

Selfishness is not the unique preserve of the first world. My peds prefer my selfish ownership to the selfishness of people who would think they were vermin.

And to address the defensive point - a discussion about moggies v pedigrees forces people to defend their postion. Needling people about doing so looks provocative.



crispycat said:


> yes not all rescues are perfect - but then what is in this world?


My cats


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> yes not all rescues are perfect


Neither are all breeders. The point is that one has nothing to do with the other just as the breeding of pedigree cats has nothing to do with the fact that the feral population is ever increasing and rescues are overflowing.

I do wonder what would happen if we did manage to stop all non managed breeding. Imagine that halcyon day when all cats are neutered before producing an 'accidental' litter. Where will people go for their cheap kittens?


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

crispycat said:


> my sis in laws(she is a total cat lady  ) and her friends were having a discussion about breeding pedigree cats - it got quite heated as sis in law feels that there are enough cats in the world that are homeless without breeding some just for "lines" (not sure what this meant) looks etc etc. she also said she abhors the idea of cat shows - could go on and on -but since I have never really thought about this and really don't know much about why cats are bred I was wondering what you all thought about it here.
> 
> Obviously the breeders here have done so after making an informed choice - but I'd love to hear (as I'm sure others who are in the dark like me) how it is a justified choice given that there are so many cats not just in this country but all over the world who live less than satisfactory lives.
> 
> I am not on any "side" but would just like to hear more about this so I can educate myself a bit on the subject


This is the original opener which enquired about the reasons for breeding without taking any particular side. I thought it was an interesting thread just asking for more information about the pros and cons of breeding. It has obviously pushed a lot of buttons and veered into a peds v mogs debate. I am surprised by the strength of feeling about this, as a cat lover I admire the whole lot of them but am constantly heartbroken by the terrible lives many cats have, no matter what their lineage.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Tao thank you for pointing that out.

as adults I like to think we can have a discussion no matter how different peoples points of views are without getting defensive. 

I do find a lot of comments (not pointing to anyone here) on this forum in general either very childish or almost offered as a bait to start an arguement  Perhaps some folk view that as entertainment.

There are lots of posts here I haven't agreed with but still "liked" as I felt the poster deserved merit for the way the point was brought across.

If you read my post a couple of pages back where I answered peoples query of what my point of view was I mentioned that I respected other views and in doing so would like it to be reciprocal - I even thanked the breeders for their very informative posts  to then continue in a childish vein just seems so pointless.

yes it is a contencious issue but it needs to be idscussed in a manner that respects all views - no one is going to change the world by angry discourse or playground tactics


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

crispycat said:


> oh meant to ask one more thing why are cat owners referred to as slaves? not heard this before - i certainly would not consider myself anything of the sort - prefer to be their mommy


Who feeds your cats? Who cleans up after them? Who obeys their every command?
What do they pay you for these services?

Definition of slave Oxford):

Definition of slave
noun 
(especially in the past) *a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them: *
*a person who works very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation:*

My OH and I are unashamedly happily enslaved slaves.
:thumbup1:


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

lulubel said:


> Having lived in Spain for 4 years, I can totally understand where crispycat's SIL is coming from. Before we moved here, I had plans to get 2 Burmese kittens when we reached the point of being cat-free. Now I know we will never be cat-free because there will always be another one that just turns up needing to be cared for, and even if we were, there's no way I could get a pedigree cat or dog when the rescues are overflowing, and there are so many strays out on the streets needing a decent meal and somewhere safe to sleep.
> 
> The vast majority of Spanish people don't neuter their animals, and won't take animals that have been neutered. The local rescue doesn't rehome to Spanish people for that reason. (In fact, most of the animals they rehome go out of the country because the British have a reputation here for just leaving their animals behind when they "go home" permanently.)
> 
> ...


I have to disagree on the birth control and Spain here as I also live here and am a practising catholic. Spain is a catholic country by tradition but as of today the percentage of those people who really follow the teachings of the church is very very low and a lot of them do use birth control not approved by the church. To my knowledge animals being sterilized or not is not one of the church´s policies. Though I have heard one or two people give this reason, most of the uneutered animals are around because their owners just coudn´t care less and feel money should not be wasted on animals.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

crispycat said:


> oh meant to ask one more thing why are cat owners referred to as slaves? not heard this before - i certainly would not consider myself anything of the sort - prefer to be their mommy


As a slave/mommy to both humans and felines, I must say the distinction is lost on me!! Although, I think the cats are slightly more appreciative of my unpaid services than the kids are.....:biggrin:

Merlin12: I agree, have never heard any Papal edict on birth control in animals. Besides.....Catholics have enough guilt to carry round with them without shouldering the burden of irresponsible cat breeding as well!!


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

On this topic I would like to say the following being one of the people who do live in Spain which is not a cat friendly country.
We have so many cats in shelters and on the street here, it´s incredible just how many cats are roaming about. My shelter has almost 200 cats , all moggies and that is just the tip of the iceberg. Why is this? because people are just too irresponsible here, they dont consider cats (it´s more of a dog country) to be worth taking care of, spending money on, feeding properly and why neuter when you can abandon? So all the cats looking for food in dumspters and reproducing left, right and centre are down to us.
Now when I was finally allowed to have a cat I researched breeds and decided on 3 BSH, MC and Raggdolls, everyone gave me a piece of their minds, no one supported my paying for a breed with so many cats in shelters. Are they right to say this? well yes and no. Yes because the number of cats we have in shelters is just ridiculous and a lot of cats are being pts due to lack of space so I would be saving one. No because it is my money and I can spend it on what I want, the same way those people who gave their many opinions have spent almost 1000 euros on a trip or whatever they wanted. Maybe we should all access what we overspend on as there are people who dont have what to eat in the world (this is not ironic but it makes me wonder how we justify our expenses and not those of others).
In the end I got Merlin from a shelter he cost my aunt (it was my xmas present) 90 euros instead of the 750 my neutered raggie was going to cost me.
Do I think breeding is wrong? not if it is responsible. Unfortunately there are a lot of irresponsible humans in this world. I also have to say that the breeders I have interacted with in PF are normally quite helpful towards the lovely Justa breed.
What I don´t like is when I feel people look down on moggies or treat them differently because they are not breeds or when people give the reason to neuter as not to put a cat through a pregnancy. Then I think, it´s the sae things that is done in breeding, more monitored and better taken care of but it´s also stressing the cat be it a breed or a justa. people should neuter because it is healthier and because we just can´t take care of more unwanted cats, it is cruel to have them living on the streets the way they are in this country.


----------



## Ayla (May 3, 2012)

I'm just going to copy what Vancouver Humane Society says about this topic, because It's exactly what I think:

_When you buy an animal instead of adopting one, it means another homeless animal remains languishing in a shelter. When you buy an animal online or from a pet store its likely youre supporting this cruel trade. While it may be tempting to buy from a breeder, remember that there is no regulatory system to guarantee reputable breeding. There are no independent inspections of breeders and being registered with a kennel club only ensures a breeder has agreed to a members code of ethics._


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

koekemakranka said:


> Who feeds your cats? Who cleans up after them? Who obeys their every command?
> What do they pay you for these services?
> 
> Definition of slave Oxford):
> ...


well i do all that for my kids too - think the cats might be a bit more grateful than the sulky teenager at present and i am mama to them all 

just a difference in opinion!


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Ayla said:


> I'm just going to copy what Vancouver Humane Society says about this topic, because It's exactly what I think:
> 
> _When you buy an animal instead of adopting one, it means another homeless animal remains languishing in a shelter. When you buy an animal online or from a pet store its likely youre supporting this cruel trade. While it may be tempting to buy from a breeder, remember that there is no regulatory system to guarantee reputable breeding. There are no independent inspections of breeders and being registered with a kennel club only ensures a breeder has agreed to a members code of ethics._


very well put  i imagine one has only the breeders word to go on - and some might paint a very pretty picture which might be quite different to the truth!

i can't imagine anyone can go investigating what really happens unless hidden cameras are placed!


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'm just going to copy what Vancouver Humane Society says about this topic


All of that quote is presumably true for Vancouver, maybe even for the whole of Canada. It cannot be speaking for regulatory systems throughout the whole world.



> When you buy an animal instead of adopting one, it means another homeless animal remains languishing in a shelter


This is exactly what doesn't happen in my experience. I've often suggested when someone comes to me for two that they have one of mine and another from a rescue. People don't want that, they want two from the same litter.


----------



## jasminex (Oct 16, 2012)

Ayla said:


> I'm just going to copy what Vancouver Humane Society says about this topic, because It's exactly what I think:
> 
> _When you buy an animal instead of adopting one, it means another homeless animal remains languishing in a shelter. When you buy an animal online or from a pet store its likely youre supporting this cruel trade. While it may be tempting to buy from a breeder, remember that there is no regulatory system to guarantee reputable breeding. There are no independent inspections of breeders and being registered with a kennel club only ensures a breeder has agreed to a members code of ethics._


That may be true in some cases, but not all. I wouldn't have got a cat from a shelter (or a BYB), so whether or not I bought a pedigree cat from a reputable breeder has no effect on the hypothetical cat languishing in the shelter. If I was to get a second cat I may well go to a shelter, but each decision is independent. (In fact, my getting a cat has benefitted a local shelter as I have donated a large amount of food and other bits, which I wouldn't have done if I didn't have my cat). People who buy pedigrees often just wouldn't get a cat if they didn't get the pedigree. Perhaps, this is more relevant to people buying moggies from BYBs rather than paying a shelter for a moggie - in this I agree that the money is far better going to the shelter and taking that cat out of the shelter.

Is the actual argument that people shouldn't own a cat unless it is a feral bred moggie?


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

so out of interest who or what is the regulatory body here that actually has the power to intervene should an adoption go wrong with a breeder? that is if the breeder and adopter just cannot come to an agreeable conclusion and the adopter wants to take it further?


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Ayla said:


> I'm just going to copy what Vancouver Humane Society says about this topic, because It's exactly what I think:
> 
> _When you buy an animal instead of adopting one, it means another homeless animal remains languishing in a shelter. When you buy an animal online or from a pet store its likely youre supporting this cruel trade. While it may be tempting to buy from a breeder, remember that there is no regulatory system to guarantee reputable breeding. There are no independent inspections of breeders and being registered with a kennel club only ensures a breeder has agreed to a members code of ethics._


Hi Ayla,

Am in no way challenging your opinions at all but just wondered if your 'quote' was direct from the Vancouver Humane Society or if you have paraphrased.

Was interested to know more about them so have trawled their website but can only find segmented parts of your statement embedded in a much longer article about the risks of buying from internet and pet shops and the terrible experiences people have with BYBs of dogs and also puppy mills...maybe me not looking in the right place so if directly from the website would you be able to send me a link to the page?

Many thanks.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Ayla said:


> I'm just going to copy what Vancouver Humane Society says about this topic, because It's exactly what I think:
> 
> _When you buy an animal instead of adopting one, it means another homeless animal remains languishing in a shelter. When you buy an animal online or from a pet store it's likely you're supporting this cruel trade. While it may be tempting to buy from a breeder, remember that there is no regulatory system to guarantee "reputable" breeding. There are no independent inspections of breeders and being registered with a kennel club only ensures a breeder has agreed to a members' code of ethics._


But for those that are turned away by shelters it doesn't mean another cat lies 'languishing'. It means, if they don't buy, that they are to remain catless all their lives. And the cat they would have rescued is still 'languishing'.

That's a very generic cover all statement - that has a basis in truth but a basis only. And uses emotive language to make a point.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

crispycat said:


> so out of interest who or what is the regulatory body here that actually has the power to intervene should an adoption go wrong with a breeder? that is if the breeder and adopter just cannot come to an agreeable conclusion and the adopter wants to take it further?


GCCC, TICA, FiFE - GCCF certainly has the power to suspend breeders and impose fines. After that or as well as, the law - small claims court etc. *Works both ways though* There are bad buyers as well - I know of someone who took an adoptee through the costs to make her stick to the contract and neuter the cat, and another who got possession back of the cat as it was being mistreated.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> so out of interest who or what is the regulatory body here that actually has the power to intervene should an adoption go wrong with a breeder? that is if the breeder and adopter just cannot come to an agreeable conclusion and the adopter wants to take it further?


Exactly the same as if they get an animal from any other source. Do you believe we are somehow not subject to the law? There are other extra (not instead of) organisations sitting in between for breeders and for dog breeders councils can be involved in licensing. I have a rescue mog from the RSPCA so I know what their contracts say. Under NO circumstances do they refund if an animal turns out to be 'unsuitable' and is returned. My local branch had a dog which was paid for four times and returned because it wrecked furniture - they failed to mention this to interested parties.

It's a less likely scenario with a breeder because you get to see the home, meet the breeder, know the background and how an animal has been raised before making any decision. Our lives and homes are open to anyone thinking of getting an animal from us. We have a deeper continued relationship with our buyers. It's something that makes us different from pet shops or any other source. Kittens are booked weeks before they are ready to leave so impulses are avoided. Even when I occasionally have a kitten still available and old enough to leave I'd never let someone turn up and take it in one visit.

None of this alters the fact that their are too many cats and too many irresponsible owners but don't confuse cause and effect. The problem needs dealt with and as far as I can see the only way it ever will be is to make neutering of animals not intended for breeding compulsory. There would be uproar and people screaming about their human rights - and they'd win


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

crispycat said:


> so out of interest who or what is the regulatory body here that actually has the power to intervene should an adoption go wrong with a breeder? that is if the breeder and adopter just cannot come to an agreeable conclusion and the adopter wants to take it further?


The GCCF Disciplinary Committee which has powers to ban, suspend, discipline and fine breeders.

The UK juducial system such as the Small Claims Court to award compensation etc.

The RSPCA with its enforcement powers for welfare and the power to prosecute.

Trading Standards and UK Consumer Law which protects the purchaser.

All of the above off the top of my head and no personal experience with any of the above in twenty years I am happy to say.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

crispycat said:


> very well put  i imagine one has only the breeders word to go on - and some might paint a very pretty picture which might be quite different to the truth!
> 
> i can't imagine anyone can go investigating what really happens unless hidden cameras are placed!


Oh my; again the same could be said for the buyers! Or the rescues! Or the bybs!

SO many people come on here stating 'I had to get that kitten out of there' and then it has issues, is 5 weeks old, is full of worms, has cat flu etc. They rescue this poor little mite but create a market. They now nothing about the 'breeder' the 'breeder' knows nothing about them. They just want rid and money.

When people come to my house to view the kittens, they are welcome to look around, they sit in my house, drink tea, eat biscuits, see the kittens, go and see the chickens (if it's not raining and they'd like to), meet all the other cats, meet hubby, meet the kids, be there on average for an hour and a half. Yes, I hoover and tidy before they come, but I do that for everyone. I don't live in a mansion so no-where to HIDE my dirty dealings. Then they go away without a kitten and think about it, we both do, and then weeks later they collect a kitten.

So no not just the breeders word - people come to visit, form their own opinions, they can talk to other people who have had my kittens if they want to (the option is there if they want). No breeders who are reputable will just hand a kitten over at the door after 2 mins of meeting and take the cash.

As always it's buyer beware (and for us, seller beware too) - do your research, just as you would for a rescue too. Expect to answer questions about your life, expect to ask them too.

If you think hidden cameras are a good idea at breeders at least extend the courtesy to the new owners too. They need checking out just as much as the breeder. New owners are quite capable of 'painting a pretty picture' too.

Much as you say you want an unbiased discussion etc - you do come across as very heavily on the side of anti breeder. That's what put people's backs up. Using emotive language and sitting on the fence with both legs dangling over the anti side doesn't help to engender a feeling of openness. If people feel under attack it's because of the way things are said. And rightly those with 'status' symbols feel the need to defend themselves.

However, I feel it was quite nicely summed up - those that are vehemently anti breeder and rescue only, have their own status symbols and wear their hero status on their sleeves all too often. If someone has both ped and mog that is conveniently waived aside and forgotten. If a breed helps out with rescue that doesn't count either. Can't do right for doing right.

The real issue to help get rescues under less pressure is to stop moggy owners having 'oops' litters, and those offspring having 'oops' litters, and those offspring having 'oops' litters etc. And also to tackle the serial moggy breeders breeding pretend peds, or crosses, that just aren't. No health tests, sold too early, often ill, barely eating etc. That's where the real issue lies. Taking issue with ped breeders is just a smoke screen and doesn't address the real issue which is hard, it's a huge issue and will take an awful lot of work to sort out - and no-one has the gall it seems. It takes guts to attack/ change those others rather than the easy targets of ped breeders.


----------



## Ayla (May 3, 2012)

lisajjl1 said:


> Hi Ayla,
> 
> Am in no way challenging your opinions at all but just wondered if your 'quote' was direct from the Vancouver Humane Society or if you have paraphrased.


Hi,
No, I haven't paraphrased, those are the words they says



lisajjl1 said:


> Was interested to know more about them so have trawled their website but can only find segmented parts of your statement embedded in a much longer article


No, my statement is not segmented parts, is a paragraph as a whole, and yes it is embedded in a much longer article, that article is entitled: *"Please ADOPTdont BUY"*, a campaing of Vacouver Human Society,

they are trying to make people aware of what you are really doing when you buy an animal, and that includes buy them online, pet stores, or breeders:

_Many pet stores also obtain their stock from puppy mills and other unregulated, uninspected sources where animals may be suffering. It is virtually impossible to trace these sources to check on the conditions the animals are raised in. The stores rely on impulse buying, showing cute puppies in the window that will instantly appeal to animal-loving consumers, especially children. CBC Televisions Marketplace program exposed the truth behind animal sales at pet stores. The pet trade is a huge industry in North America and around the world. Breeders often supply the animals to brokers who warehouse the animals before shipping them to retailers. An undercover investigation by PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) exposed the cruelty of one such broker. 
*When you buy an animal online or from a pet store its likely youre supporting this cruel trade. Only adopt from shelters and rescue groups. When you buy an animal instead of adopting one, it means another homeless animal remains languishing in a shelter. While it may be tempting to buy from a breeder, remember that there is no regulatory system to guarantee reputable breeding. There are no independent inspections of breeders and being registered with a kennel club only ensures a breeder has agreed to a members code of ethics. *
If you are determined to adopt a specific breed of dog you can contact a number of rescue groups that specialize in particular breeds...._

(By the way, here, in Spain PACMA has a similar campaign 



lisajjl1 said:


> would you be able to send me a link to the page?


Please ADOPT...don't BUY. - Vancouver Humane Society | Vancouver Humane Society



lisajjl1 said:


> Many thanks.


You are welcome.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Tim Minchin on human logic - YouTube

clic the link - for logic

This argument is a bit like this - a fallacy of causation and correlation - we assume that when we notice one event after an event that the first event caused the second event. Cum hoc ergo procter hoc.

_So we notice rescues are full and then we notice that people are deliberately breeding pedigrees. Therefore ped breeders are causing full rescues._

But of course there could be no causal relationship between them all, it could be a coincidence, or there could be a third factor that has a causal relationship with both other events, but doesn't imply a relationship between them.

_SO the bybs, and oops litters are the third event and they have a causal relationship with a) the rescues as they fill them up and b) the ped breeders as they stick as stigma to them causing them to get the blame._

But actually ped breeders have nothing to do with rescues being full. The casual relationship is false.

You're welcome!


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Many pet stores also obtain their stock from puppy mills and other unregulated, uninspected sources where animals may be suffering


But here in the UK those sources are regulated and inspected. The problem lies in the woefully inadequate minimum standards required. They are the same standards required of rescues.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Following on from Spids' post about people paying for kittens: what I would love to see is a rigidly enforced system of LICENSED breeders that could sell peds and LICENSED shelters that could sell rescue animals. Any other selling of animals would be illegal. Sites such as Pets4HOmes could still exist but they would only run ads for licensed breeders/shelters. 
Even if the market for BYBs was taken away though, what about the Whoops litters? When I was a child there wasn't really a market for these cats and they would be given away, but giving away a cat for nothing doesn't seem like a very good idea. Anybody got any answers?


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Tao2 said:


> Following on from Spids' post about people paying for kittens: what I would love to see is a rigidly enforced system of LICENSED breeders that could sell peds and LICENSED shelters that could sell rescue animals. Any other selling of animals would be illegal. Sites such as Pets4HOmes could still exist but they would only run ads for licensed breeders/shelters.
> Even if the market for BYBs was taken away though, what about the Whoops litters? When I was a child there wasn't really a market for these cats and they would be given away, but giving away a cat for nothing doesn't seem like a very good idea. Anybody got any answers?


Which bit of which post - could you quote please - I don't want to be taken out of context?

However - there wouldn't be whoops litters as all kittens/ cat would be rehomed as neuters. Get caught out selling unlicensed cats then you lose all your 'stock' and they are all neutered and rehomed. IN less than 10 years there would only be peds left.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

This bit:
*SO many people come on here stating 'I had to get that kitten out of there' and then it has issues, is 5 weeks old, is full of worms, has cat flu etc. They rescue this poor little mite but create a market. They now nothing about the 'breeder' the 'breeder' knows nothing about them. They just want rid and money.[/B
Sorry couldn't be bothered to quote, don't believe I was taking anything out of context.

I think there would still be cats coming into shelters, and obviously feral problem would not be resolved. But it would definitely help. And be a much more humane system.*


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Ayla said:


> Hi,
> No, I haven't paraphrased, those are the words they says
> 
> No, my statement is not segmented parts, is a paragraph as a whole, and yes it is embedded in a much longer article, that article is entitled: *"Please ADOPT…don't BUY"*, a campaing of Vacouver Human Society,
> ...


Thanks Ayla,

Yes that now makes sense....was reading your original post a little out of context at first read I'm afraid and did miss the part you quoted as was looking for something that related to pedigree cat breeding.

Now see it relates to the source of puppies and dogs that are sold in pet shops not being regulated in Canada.

Many thanks, Lisa.


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I often suspect that people who are against the breeding of pedigree animals (of what ever species) will not have their minds changed by reasoned arguments on the matter  

The fact is that it is moggies that fill rescue centres not pedigrees. Those moggies were created by people too lazy to neuter / too keen to have a litter of cute kittens / too eager for their children to see the miracle of birth. :nono:

It is foolish to think that if no pedigree animals were bred then rescue centres would be empty because people too lazy to neuter / too keen to have a litter of cute kittens / too eager for their children to see the miracle of birth. Animals will still suffer, rescues will still be overfull regardless. :glare:

Rescue organisations want you to buy animals from them so will go out of their way to tell you that you are condemning an animal to life in rescue or even death (depending on the country/organisation) if you buy one from a breeder. People who want a cat/dog will go to rescue, only people who want a specific breed will go to a breeder. 

Moggies are often more inbred than pedigrees. My own moggie was the result of a father/daughter mating and the father also happened to be his daughters half brother. My Mums moggie had a litter by her brother while in rescue.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Tao2 said:


> This bit:
> *SO many people come on here stating 'I had to get that kitten out of there' and then it has issues, is 5 weeks old, is full of worms, has cat flu etc. They rescue this poor little mite but create a market. They now nothing about the 'breeder' the 'breeder' knows nothing about them. They just want rid and money.[/B
> Sorry couldn't be bothered to quote, don't believe I was taking anything out of context.
> 
> I think there would still be cats coming into shelters, and obviously feral problem would not be resolved. But it would definitely help. And be a much more humane system.*


*

Ta - just wanted to check as didn't remember a whole post about paying for kittens. Slightly out of context (in the context of the whole post as wasn't about paying) as peds are paid for too, those paying for a byb just line pockets, whereas after 7 years of breeding I still have yet to break even. You also pay for cats from rescue - even if they call it an adoption fee.*


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

spid said:


> Tim Minchin on human logic - YouTube
> 
> clic the link - for logic
> 
> ...


Agree 100% with this....if someone could tell me that rescues were having to turn away non peds as they were full to the brim of unwanted pedigrees I could understand the breeder bashing on this thread.

As this doesnt seem to be the case and no one so far had quoted a single known and detailed case of a ped taking away a promised home from a non-ped or preventing a non-ped from entering a rescue I am at a loss to understand some of the comments and mentality.


----------



## Ayla (May 3, 2012)

lisajjl1 said:


> Thanks Ayla,
> 
> Now see it relates to the source of puppies and dogs that are sold in pet shops not being regulated in Canada.
> 
> Many thanks, Lisa.


¿¿??  No, not only read it again!, 
here is how the article starts:

_Whenever animals are bought and sold, they are vulnerable to abuse. Charlies story serves as a warning to anyone wanting to purchase a pet. *Please adopt  never, ever buy animals*. There are thousands of [cats and dogs available through shelters and rescue groups. Every time a *puppy or kitten* is purchased from a pet store, an internet ad *or a breeder*, usually because someone wants a particular breed or size of animal, a homeless animal goes without a home. As long as there are homeless pets available for adoption, *the Vancouver Humane Society feels that its unethical and cruel to breed more*._

as I said before,
they are trying to make people aware of what you are really doing when you buy an animal, and that includes buy them online, pet stores, or breeders


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

I am honestly quite tired of people quoting and requoting the "status symbol" thing - i'll say it again this was not said by me but another individual i met.

also whether you like it or not there are and will always be people who will buy cats,dogs etc for a status symbol just like a designer handbag - that does not imply that everyone does and it is just so childish to go on about it.

as for being on the fence - spid - i don't know if you read my post after that - the reason i said that was because i wanted to think about it instead of just spouting off stuff.

i did give a very definate opinion of what i believe it may be different from your and I ask that you respect mine as i respect yours. i don't notice anyone breeder bashing - besides if you believe what you do noone can make you feel otherwise.

I don't expect to convert people and don't expect people to convert me - just live and let live.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> they are trying to make people aware of what you are really doing when you buy an animal


What are this particular rescues's criteria for rehoming? Do they ever turn away someone they consider unsuitable? My local Cat's Protection League considers me a completely unsuitable home for a cat whereas I'm approved by the RSPCA  When the local CPL refuse to rehome a rescue with me because they will only condone free roaming cats who exactly is condemning an animal?


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Ayla said:


> ¿¿??  No, not only read it again!,
> here is how the article starts:
> 
> _Whenever animals are bought and sold, they are vulnerable to abuse. Charlie's story serves as a warning to anyone wanting to purchase a pet. *Please adopt - never, ever buy animals*. There are thousands of [cats and dogs available through shelters and rescue groups. Every time a *puppy or kitten* is purchased from a pet store, an internet ad *or a breeder*, usually because someone wants a particular breed or size of animal, a homeless animal goes without a home. As long as there are homeless pets available for adoption, *the Vancouver Humane Society feels that it's unethical and cruel to breed more*._
> ...


And as I've said before - this isn't the whole truth. It's a snapshot of some buyers. Not all. It's a generalisation. I can't adopt from a shelter - my hubby is RAF so that's apparently enough to stop me. So should I go catless or dogless because of that? I won't have left an animal languishing - *they did that when they refused me*. So their attempt at emotional blackmail backfires back on themsleves. And I have a brain I know how to tell a good ethical breeder from a byb or puppy farm.

The Vancouver Humane Society may feel it's unethical and cruel to breed more but they aren't the only society in the world. And they don't speak for a lot of people. They too are taken in by the fallacy of causal relationships. Their logic is fundamentally flawed.


----------



## Bloodraine5252 (Jan 13, 2013)

Ayla said:


> ¿¿??  No, not only read it again!,
> here is how the article starts:
> 
> _Whenever animals are bought and sold, they are vulnerable to abuse. Charlies story serves as a warning to anyone wanting to purchase a pet. *Please adopt  never, ever buy animals*. There are thousands of [cats and dogs available through shelters and rescue groups. Every time a *puppy or kitten* is purchased from a pet store, an internet ad *or a breeder*, usually because someone wants a particular breed or size of animal, a homeless animal goes without a home. As long as there are homeless pets available for adoption, *the Vancouver Humane Society feels that its unethical and cruel to breed more*._
> ...


But as has been said before that is not true. I had two rescue cats (one was a Persian but it wasn't a breed rescue). When my Persian died I decided I wanted another satellite faced baby. So I went to breeder. Loki never took the place of a rescue as I wasn't wanting a rescue this time around.

It would be different if I went to get a byb moggie instead of going to a rescue. People who buy pedigrees tend to want them, not a rescue be it for looks, temperament, whatever. They are not taking the place that a rescue might have had as many prospective owners don't want a rescue cat.

Also, getting a cat from a rescue or a breeder isn't mutually exclusive. I have both as do many others on the forum.


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Ayla said:


> ¿¿??  No, not only read it again!,
> here is how the article starts:
> 
> _Whenever animals are bought and sold, they are vulnerable to abuse. Charlies story serves as a warning to anyone wanting to purchase a pet. *Please adopt  never, ever buy animals*. There are thousands of [cats and dogs available through shelters and rescue groups. Every time a *puppy or kitten* is purchased from a pet store, an internet ad *or a breeder*, usually because someone wants a particular breed or size of animal, a homeless animal goes without a home. As long as there are homeless pets available for adoption, *the Vancouver Humane Society feels that its unethical and cruel to breed more*._
> ...


Hi Ayla,

Yes I have re-read and agree with the ethics behind the statement but the only way this could be enforced would be to close down each and every pet shop, all internet sites and stop anyone breeding any more and make mandatory adoption of animals the only way to get an animal. This would be fantastic in a lot of ways as animal loving people would be forced into adopting as their only option to obtain a pet.

But then after a few years there wouldnt be any left as no-one would be breeding any more of them and they would have all died out having much shorter lifespans than us and presume all these rescue animals would be leaving neutered as no one should be breeding????? .....

Surely its more about responsible managed breeding practices and ensuring that demand for homes isnt exceeded by numbers being bred than suggesting people shouldnt be buying from breeders?

Looking at the types of animals that are in such huge numbers that there simply arent enough homes for them....in this country and looking purely at cats this is non-ped cats and kittens.

If I give up breeding tommorow it wont reduce the number of non-ped kittens being born this season, or the next or the next.

I dont drag people in off the streets and force them to buy one of my kittens and I dont hang around outside my local RSPCA twisting peoples arms to come and get a pedigree and not look at the rescues.

What I do have is a waiting list of vetted people which just gets longer and not shorter who want a Siamese kitten, they are prepared to wait sometimes up to 18 months for one, many people approach me after scouring the country from end to end for a Siamese kitten that is ready now.....they cant find one so will now wait. These people will not head off to their local shelter to adopt if they cant find a kitten of the breed they want.

We need to get the population explosion of non-peds down so that they can also be assured of safe vetted permanant homes to go to in the same way and the numbers being born reflect the number of homes available.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

crispycat said:


> I am honestly quite tired of people quoting and requoting the "status symbol" thing - i'll say it again this was not said by me but another individual i met.


If you don't want it mentioned then don't bring it up in the first place - it's a contentious thing got say,Tao2 then agreed with you - though she then realised what she had written wasn't worded perfectly. People will get riled when they feel attacked (status symbol) and not everyone will then calmly read the WHOLE rest of the thread to see how things changed, they react there and then. They have as much right as you to defend themselves. Whether you said it or not - you were the first person (page 2) to mention status symbols. And without you saying whether you agree or not, human nature will do that old false causal relationship thing and assume as you said a) and didn't deny it you believe it.



crispycat said:


> also whether you like it or not there are and will always be people who will buy cats,dogs etc for a status symbol just like a designer handbag - that does not imply that everyone does and it is just so childish to go on about it.


Again, I state the point that when attacked - real or perceived people will defend themselves. As, at that point, you sat in the fence you were the perceived attacker. To constantly call people childish and talk about playground bullying is in itself childish and take the subject off issue.



crispycat said:


> as for being on the fence - spid - i don't know if you read my post after that - the reason i said that was because i wanted to think about it instead of just spouting off stuff.
> 
> i did give a very definate opinion of what i believe it may be different from your and I ask that you respect mine as i respect yours. i don't notice anyone breeder bashing - besides if you believe what you do noone can make you feel otherwise.


But I don't believe you do respect mine. I believe you may accept it, but I certainly don't feel you respect it - it's a cop out way of saying I don't want to listen any more. If you respected it, you would listen and you would discuss, not just say I respect you. It's like that old 'no offence meant' phrase. Conciliatory tones that actually mean nothing. You can't respect my view when you bandy words like childish and playground around. But hey, I actually don't need you to respect me or my views. I don't 'respect' yours as that would imply agreement, I accept them, and I will defend you right to hold them to the death, but I can't respect them.

You don't find this that you said quite contentious then? _for me making an informed decision of bringing more animals into this world (or humans) is almost worse than bringing them in due to ignorance._

I actually find it very judgemental. I do. As both a breeder and a mother. You didn't just state that for you, you wouldn't buy a ped, you followed up with a judgemental reason.

And no, no-one can make me change my beliefs (except by rational, reasoned, ethical arguments that address all issues I bring up) but doesn't mean I can't defend them, or explain them.



crispycat said:


> I don't expect to convert people and don't expect people to convert me - just live and let live.


I would like answer to a lot of the questions that have been posed here and not answered.

What about endangered species? What about cats whose heritage goes right back to the Egyptians? What about selective breeding in other animals horse etc? What about controls on bybs etc? Why should people go to a byb instead of a breed? What about secret cameras in rescues and buyers homes? How do we combat buyers hoodwinking breeders (and or rescues)? What about people who are allergic to moggies and not peds? What about those who what an indoor only cat?etc.

Anyhow too many circles being navigated now - I'm out.


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

But at the end of the day we are not addressing the real problems.

Why are they so many cats in shelters?
Why do people just let their cats reproduce and then try to get money out of them, without any research or care at all?
If the percentage of breed cats is just 3% then we have another source of the problem.

For me the answer is so clear. *Human beings are just too irresponsible.*

Just take a walk around some streets here in Spain, the number of cats in garbage áreas, none are pedigree. I´m not against breeding at all but for sure not everyone should breed, there has to be laws 8which I think reputable breeders follow).

Also, why are rescue so strict? isn´t it better an indoor cat tan one in a cage?


----------



## Ayla (May 3, 2012)

You need to see the entire image. Hundred of persons buy hundreds of dogs and cats each year. If those persons choose adopt instead of buying, hundred of animals will find a family, ¡every year!. And other animal could take its place in the shelter (when you adopt 1 you are actually helping 2 animals)

That's one reason why all associations dedicated to defending and protecting animals are devoted to make people think in adopt rather than buy.

My opinion is that not everyone can have any animal. I'd wish that animal welfare experts dictate the requirements that have to have a person to take care of this or another animal. And it would be necessary that the requirements were an unified approach. And if these requirements are not met, that person could not have that animal, neither adopted nor buyed.

(by the way, I do not think that a cat need to be a roaming cat to be happy, but it is just my point of view, I'm not an expert  )


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

To be fair, had I bought 2 Bengals then it would mean I wouldnt have my two rescues so I suppose I would have been taking a home away from a rescue. 

In the end things didnt work out with the Bengals, we werent going to be in the right financial position to pay for them and unexpected vets bills for a while and the breeder I had my eye on wasnt happy to sell to someone who let the cats roam so that is when we made the decision to go to our local CP to find the right cats for us. 

Not everybody is happy to do that, some people are very certain on what breed they want and are willing to be catless until they can get it, thus no rescue cats are being overlooked. 

Just want to add that if we had been turned down by the rescues for whatever reason then we would most likely have waited another year and got Bengals and never looked at rescues again. I was never willing to buy a kitten from an ad.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If those persons choose adopt instead of buying


What about the hundreds who first approach rescues and are refused? Some have a blanket ban on people with small children, some by postcode or location. All have criteria which may well differ from rescue to rescue but ALL do refuse people who would be accepted by another. It simply isn't as black and white as you'd like it to be. There's no point anyone trying to find the rescue that will accept them if it's too far away because they all have limitations on how far they'll travel to do home checks.


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Ayla said:


> You need to see the entire image. Hundred of persons buy hundreds of dogs and cats each year. If those persons choose adopt instead of buying, hundred of animals will find a family, ¡every year!. And other animal could take its place in the shelter (when you adopt 1 you are actually helping 2 animals)
> 
> That's one reason why all associations dedicated to defending and protecting animals are devoted to make people think in adopt rather than buy.
> 
> ...


I think a cat free in a natural undisturbed environment is happy, for me a cat roaming in a city with the dangers of the road, no protection from weather hazards, very few drinking wáter outlets and searching for food in the garbage is not living how it should. Cats that are roaming the streets of Spain not being that their natural hábitats are there thanks to us. It is our fault. They lead very difficult lives. But a cat in a farm or a forest, where nature takes care of it is happy.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

I have read through most of the posts and find that those advocating rescue good,pedigree bad,have a very odd view of the situation.
Yes I have a Ragdoll my last 3 cats were moggies 2 taken on as strays.
After the last one died I eventually took myself off to a local rescue to find another furry friend and was totally gobsmacked by the reaction when I said I would not be allowing my cat to roam.I was refused a cat on the grounds that all their cats had to be adopted to homes with outdoor access 
I found this to be quite a widespread reaction so decided that as I was not prepared to risk the life of my cat I would have to look elsewhere.
Please explain to me who was responsible for 1 possibly 2 cats still in rescue because I didnt take a cat/kitten from a rescue centre,it sure as hell wasnt me


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

buffie said:


> I have read through most of the posts and find that those advocating rescue good,pedigree bad,have a very odd view of the situation.
> Yes I have a Ragdoll my last 3 cats were moggies 2 taken on as strays.
> After the last one died I eventually took myself off to a local rescue to find another furry friend and was totally gobsmacked by the reaction when I said I would not be allowing my cat to roam.I was refused a cat on the grounds that all their cats had to be adopted to homes with outdoor access
> I found this to be quite a widespread reaction so decided that as I was not prepared to risk the life of my cat I would have to look elsewhere.
> Please explain to me who was responsible for 1 possibly 2 cats still in rescue because I didnt take a cat/kitten from a rescue centre,it sure as hell wasnt me


The rescue, the rescue. I just can´t understand how they prefer having them in cages, pts when someone is willing to care enough for them to not let them roam.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Ayla said:


> If those persons *choose* adopt instead of buying.


Yes, let's just take away free choice while were at it. :frown2: It still won't stop irresponsible moggy breeding, nor will it lessen the suffering or overcrowding of animals in shelters or strays roaming the streets. It doesn't address the problem. You are free to adopt, no one is telling you that's unethical but you are implying those who buy a ped are unethical. That is utterly ridiculous and only emphasizes how misguided your argument is.

Let's let breeds who's lineages go back hundreds of years die out to make room for more moggies while we're at it.

By that same token, why not mandate people adopt children to solve the overcrowding in the world?

Exactly where would you draw the line in telling people what their own personal choices should be?

By the way, I have both rescue and purebred and always will.


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

spid said:


> Tim Minchin on human logic - YouTube
> 
> clic the link - for logic
> 
> ...


It feels like I have stepped into a cat version of The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Wish it were so, what I would pay for a babel fish so I could understand what the hell my cats are on about....


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> When I was a child there wasn't really a market for these cats and they would be given away, but giving away a cat for nothing doesn't seem like a very good idea. Anybody got any answers?


Some time ago I gave my thoughts on this on another thread. I do believe the internet has played a large part in the problem as people saw the price of pedigree kittens and thought they'd have a slice of the (perceived) action.

It would be simple to make it illegal to sell any animal under a certain age without a permit - let vets give out the permits so they are easily available. Let the choice be £100 for a permit or (and this bit is new in my thoughts) you can have one for free if the mum is spayed instead. This ensures the kittens can't be sold too young as the mum can't be spayed too quickly after having them. Of course this doesn't stop anyone giving the kittens away but it does ensure the irresponsible can't profit from that one time their cat got out  As spaying is cheaper than a permit to sell it would probably stop a lot of repeat offenders too.


----------



## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Ok, I admit I'm one of those people that adores cats but never stepped foot in a rescue! I see lots of posts from pedigree owners that were refused rescues because of location or refused because they wanted an indoor cat. Then I also see posts of rescue owners refused pedigrees because they wanted to let the cat out. If the rescues were more relaxed and the pedigree breeders were more relaxed, pedigrees would go to pedigree wanters and vice versa!! Everyone Would get what they would really prefer :thumbsup:

I wanted Siamese and Siamese only. Not only do I want Siamese, but I like them to be kittens, to have them in my life as long as possible. I could have gone to a rescue and adopted 2 gorgeous justas but no, must have Siamese!


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I agree there is a huge problem with unwanted cats, but to me blaming the breeders and owners of pedigrees is ointless and inaccurate.

Where do all these homesless cats come from for a start? 

The vast majority are random bred moggies - not pedigrees. Thus the first people to blame are the moggy breeders. Both the deliberate "wanted to let her have a litter" or out to make a quick buck, and the "oops" litters from unneutered cats being allowed to roam. 
You may have to wait months to find a kitten of a particular breed, yet so many moggies are produced every year that the "surplus" are given away, abandoned, dumped in rescue, killed etc.

Secondly, regardless of how many are being bred - this doesn't actually matter if all the kittens go to good, premanent homes. The people responsible for the vast majority of unwanted cats are the owners - and as the majority of said unwanted cats are moggies - it tends to be moggy owners that are responsible*. The people who decide they can't be bothered, got bored, bought a cat on impulse or for the kids, didn't expect it to behave like a cat etc etc.... Bad owners, not breeders.

*Just to clarify; I'm not saying moggy owners are worse than pedigree owners; as already mentioned this bias is most likely simply a numbers game. There are bad owners of mogs and peds, there are just more mogs.

Of course, I also think we should blame any and all irresponsible breeders and owners, of both peds and mogs. there are some nasty kitten-farmer types around churning out poorly bred peds and selling to any old numpty who may later dump them. BUT, again these peds make up only a tiny minority of unwanted cats, so their breeders are the tip of the iceburg.

The rescues.... 
Now I do not believe the rescues are to blame for the rescue crisis at all - they are simply doing their best to clear up other people's messes. I am very pro-rescue / rehome. 
That said, there are many rescues that make life difficult and prevent cats getting perfectly good homes. As has been mentioned, arbitrary rules like must be allowed to roam / no other pets or kids / postcode lotteries etc. do nothing to help the cats, or to encourage people to adopt. I'm not suggesting they allow any old numpty to get a cat; but turning away good homes is just senseless IMO.

As for why bother with peds... free choice?

I love moggies; I currently have three. Two "oops" litter mates, and a private rehome. Rescues round here don't want me - rented, flat, main road 

But we all have preferences in terms of looks, temperament and health. Sure just people just want a certain look; but others choose a breed with a temperament to suit them and their lifestyle. With adoption, especially private rehomes, there are going to be health risks. With a well bred, well raised ped these can be minimised.

I someone chooses to adopt rather than buy then great; good for them! But to suggest that responsible ped owners and breeders are to blame for all the random mogs being dumped is ridiculous.


----------



## danniandnala (Aug 31, 2012)

Just wondering if you've done same thread in dog chat xx


----------



## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

crispycat said:


> I am honestly quite tired of people quoting and requoting the "status symbol" thing - i'll say it again this was not said by me but another individual i met.


This is the problem when you start a debate using someone else's opinion or viewpoint because you don't have one of your own on the subject. You can't then hide behind the 'it wasn't me that said it' argument, you chose what to type and those particular points were what you chose to represent from your sister in laws views on the subject. You put them there, so don't complain when people quote and repeat them.


----------



## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Ayla said:


> You need to see the entire image. Hundred of persons buy hundreds of dogs and cats each year. If those persons choose adopt instead of buying, hundred of animals will find a family, ¡every year!. And other animal could take its place in the shelter (when you adopt 1 you are actually helping 2 animals)
> 
> That's one reason why all associations dedicated to defending and protecting animals are devoted to make people think in adopt rather than buy.
> 
> ...


So what about people with very specific circumstances? Severe allergies would ordinarily mean that a person may not be able to have a cat in the home, however certain breeds such as a Siberian are far less likely to trigger allergies than other breeds. Are these people not allowed a cat?

I don't meet most rescue's criteria purely because I have small children, those are not my reasons for having pedigrees but it counts me out of the running as far as adoption would be concerned and quite a few other cat owners I know.


----------



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

crispycat said:


> I wasn't trying to discuss merits or demerits of rescues to justify pedigress cats! I am more than happy to accept that peoples values and judgements differ widely.


Why do pedigree cats need to be justified?

And I think you _do_ have to look at the merits and demerits of rescues, because if more rescues had a more common sense approach to rehoming the animals, more of them would be rehomed instead of being left 'languishing' in a cage.



> yes not all rescues are perfect - but then what is in this world?


No-one said they were. But if people are refused an animal from a rescue are they meant to never have a pet?



> with all due respect I find your post a bit defensive - "give my status symbol a snuggle" points can be made without the sarcasm


With all due respect, if I feel I am being attacked because I have paid for my cats, and have pedigrees instead of rescue moggies, then I will defend myself. Especially when rescue centres turned me away, so I couldn't rescue a cat anyway!

And if I want to use sarcasm, I will. Last time I looked we still had freedom of speech


----------



## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Aurelie said:


> So what about people with very specific circumstances? Severe allergies would ordinarily mean that a person may not be able to have a cat in the home, however certain breeds such as a Siberian are far less likely to trigger allergies than other breeds. Are these people not allowed a cat?
> 
> I don't meet most rescue's criteria purely because I have small children, those are not my reasons for having pedigrees but it counts me out of the running as far as adoption would be concerned and quite a few other cat owners I know.


That is so true Aurelie! I forgot about that side of things.

My friend is highly allergic to cats, she wanted one. So she went out and bought 2 sphynx!! This was about 5 years ago as well  ££ No status symbol, she just wanted cats


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Aurelie said:


> This is the problem when you start a debate using someone else's opinion or viewpoint because you don't have one of your own on the subject. You can't then hide behind the 'it wasn't me that said it' argument, you chose what to type and those particular points were what you chose to represent from your sister in laws views on the subject. You put them there, so don't complain when people quote and repeat them.


that is just silly as i did post my opinion a couple of pages ago - i started this whole thread based on a conversation someone else was having - i have lots of opinions just tired of sharing them here as it just goes round in circles and the usual moggie neutering thing that we all have heard time and time again - thats not what i wanted to talk about here - really ccan't see this getting anywhere -


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

crispycat said:


> that is just silly as i did post my opinion a couple of pages ago - i started this whole thread based on a conversation someone else was having - i have lots of opinions just tired of sharing them here as it just goes round in circles and *the usual moggie neutering thing that we all have heard time and time again - thats not what i wanted to talk about here* - really ccan't see this getting anywhere -


_We_ may have, but if everone out there had got the message then we couldn't even be having this debate as there would be no need... 

Anyway, which aspects DID you want to talk about, crispy? This is a forum, you'll have to be specific or things will go off at a tangent!


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

So what is it you want to discuss exactly?

You presented someone's opinion about breeding peds being unjustified given the number of homeless cats. You asked for debate and info on why people breed (and presumably keep) peds, and if it can be justified.

That's exactly what I've been reading on this thread???


----------



## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

crispycat said:


> that is just silly as i did post my opinion a couple of pages ago - i started this whole thread based on a conversation someone else was having - i have lots of opinions just tired of sharing them here as it just goes round in circles and the usual moggie neutering thing that we all have heard time and time again - thats not what i wanted to talk about here - really ccan't see this getting anywhere -


Yes you posted your opinion a few pages AFTER you started the thread, I didn't dispute that. What did you want to talk about?

This entire subject is something that is and has been brought up on an almost cyclical basis on here - surely you must have seen this dicussed before? It always goes in circles because there is always someone (not you) who comes in banging the drum and demanding a halt to Pedigree breeding because the Ped breeders and owners are apparently killing all the rescue cats.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Aurelie said:


> Yes you posted your opinion a few pages AFTER you started the thread, I didn't dispute that. What did you want to talk about?
> 
> This entire subject is something that is and has been brought up on an almost cyclical basis on here - surely you must have seen this dicussed before and it always goes in circles because there is always someone (not you) who comes in banging the drum and demanding a halt to Pedigree breeding because the Ped breeders and owners are apparently killing all the rescue cats.


why keep posting here if it has been brought up time and time again?

have had enough of the so called getting backs up, etc etc - just as u have ur views on breeding i and several others who by the way don't even want to post here as they can't bear the usual arguements.

i gave my opinion - thanked everyone for theirs and yet it goes round in circles - i certainly have better things to do now as must all of you.


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

MCWillow said:


> Why do pedigree cats need to be justified?
> 
> And I think you _do_ have to look at the merits and demerits of rescues, because if more rescues had a more common sense approach to rehoming the animals, more of them would be rehomed instead of being left 'languishing' in a cage.
> 
> ...


ah yes the old trick on this forum - lets feel sorry for ourselves - someone is being so nasty to me - come everyone rally round! really - one sees this time and time again - and for the record - i am saying what a lot of people are thinking but can't be bothered getting into an arguement over.

its so out of context and plain silly - neither u or i believe that everyone who owns a ped has one for a status symbol - but cold daylight fact is some do whether u like it or not.

enjoy the rest of ur eve folks!


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I dont have much to say and have been avoiding posting on this thread but thought i would add that although i breed i also rescue, all rescue cats/kittens are finding homes and my own breeding kittens are finding homes, so i havent noticed a for or against in this subject.

People either ask for a rescue or a pedigree, both equally are loved, played with, and have everything and each find a home easily.


----------



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

crispycat said:


> ah yes the old trick on this forum - lets feel sorry for ourselves - someone is being so nasty to me - come everyone rally round! really - one sees this time and time again - and for the record - i am saying what a lot of people are thinking but can't be bothered getting into an arguement over.
> 
> its so out of context and plain silly - neither u or i believe that everyone who owns a ped has one for a status symbol - but cold daylight fact is some do whether u like it or not.
> 
> enjoy the rest of ur eve folks!


Erm actually I am not feeling sorry for myself, and if I truely felt someone was being 'nasty' to me, I would have reported the post to a mod.

I certainly don't need anyone to 'rally' round me either.

What was that you said earlier about being childish......


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

catcoonz said:


> I dont have much to say and have been avoiding posting on this thread but thought i would add that although i breed i also rescue, all rescue cats/kittens are finding homes and my own breeding kittens are finding homes, so i havent noticed a for or against in this subject.
> 
> People either ask for a rescue or a pedigree, both equally are loved, played with, and have everything and each find a home easily.


As should be


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> I dont have much to say and have been avoiding posting on this thread but thought i would add that although i breed i also rescue, all rescue cats/kittens are finding homes and my own breeding kittens are finding homes, so i havent noticed a for or against in this subject.
> 
> People either ask for a rescue or a pedigree, both equally are loved, played with, and have everything and each find a home easily.


exactly - thank you for your dignified response cc - i have no problem with peds like i said it is a deeply personal view whether i would adopt one as explained earlier thats all - most threads here turn into a circus here as things are picked on out of context,

i wouldn't have come back here if i wasnt the original poster - sadly many have told me that they don't want to post here for all the reasons displayed on this thread


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Bit lost now - I expect I have missed something but it looks like a fairly calm thread to me.


----------



## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

crispycat said:


> sadly many have told me that they don't want to post here for all the reasons displayed on this thread


So you keep saying


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Jonescat said:


> Bit lost now - I expect I have missed something but it looks like a fairly calm thread to me.


yes it was till some people decided they wanted a bit of entertainment  why do things calmly when u can make a song and dance :lol:


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

MCWillow said:


> Erm actually I am not feeling sorry for myself, and if I truely felt someone was being 'nasty' to me, I would have reported the post to a mod.
> 
> I certainly don't need anyone to 'rally' round me either.
> 
> What was that you said earlier about being childish......


to be fair i have really appreciated your posts in the past but just felt this was taken out of contaxt as it wasn't an attack on anyone here at all - i didn't think i needed to explain myself as it was so clear to see


----------



## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

crispycat said:


> exactly - thank you for your dignified response cc - i have no problem with peds like i said it is a deeply personal view whether i would adopt one as explained earlier thats all - most threads here turn into a circus here as things are picked on out of context,
> 
> i wouldn't have come back here if i wasnt the original poster - sadly many have told me that they don't want to post here for all the reasons displayed on this thread


Was this the purpose of your thread, and what you wanted to discuss? Get everyone that has an opinion on forum matters posting by getting their backs up?


----------



## crispycat (Apr 2, 2013)

Aurelie said:


> So you keep saying


and a roll eyes to you too - only stating what i know to be true as they have told me 

its not just this thread it applies to but sadly several i think where the so called big hitters come on say things and no one wants to argue with them


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I have been on the sidelines following this thread. I have not given any opinion as I think it's probably quite clear where my thoughts on the matter lie.
However, I see no reason for some of the back-biting comments.
This thread was started in the manner of a debate - for and against and there is no need for any antagonism on the part of either side. If anyone feels they are being treated unfairly or don't want to post because opinion may be against them, then report the post.


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

It just doesn´t have to be a battle of peds against moggies. It is true that if you don´t buy a ped you rescue a moggie, no one disputes that but sadly the Justa breed is the one that is overflowing in rescues, it is the breed that for some reason a lot of people feel they can treat in a way they would not treat a ped. This is what angers me. A justa is just as important as a ped, and sincerely speaking that is a mentality we need to fight to change. Also since any Tom, Dick or Harry can get a cat with a lot of people being just plain ignorant about cat care, they abandon them whenever they want, they don´t take care of them and of course it´s one litter after the other. So I really don´t feel like breeders are the reason why rescues as overfull, in my case in Spain, most of my friends with cats have Justas, yet rescues are bursting at the seams and some happily pts healthy cats when they are not claimed. This is the real problem, while people still maintain that archaic mentality of "it´s a cat, I can leave it at that corner and it will survive" things are not going to change.
Merlin is a ped and he was still abandoned and I love his little chunky self to bits, I can´t want him not to have existed.


----------



## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

This has been a really interesting thread. There does seem a strange contradiction though - byb's and oops litters are to blame for the rescue crisis, that isn't in doubt - yet people still demand photos and coo over the oops litters that appear on the forum.


----------



## Tao2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Laurac said:


> This has been a really interesting thread. There does seem a strange contradiction though - byb's and oops litters are to blame for the rescue crisis, that isn't in doubt - yet people still demand photos and coo over the oops litters that appear on the forum.


You are right, we are all cat lovers and love to coo over kittens but at the same time, disapprove of irresponsible breeding. I think (don't all swoop on me at once....) that the intense responses posted on here and clearly strong feelings that have been ignited may have been for the same reason? We love cats, hence we want to have them as pets, maybe even to show and breed them, but at the same time are uneasy about contributing to the problem of not enough loving homes for the number of cats in the country? OK, finished now, your turn.......:yikes:


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Ayla said:


> I'm just going to copy what Vancouver Humane Society says about this topic, because It's exactly what I think:
> 
> _When you buy an animal instead of adopting one, it means another homeless animal remains languishing in a shelter. When you buy an animal online or from a pet store it's likely you're supporting this cruel trade. While it may be tempting to buy from a breeder, remember that there is no regulatory system to guarantee "reputable" breeding. There are no independent inspections of breeders and being registered with a kennel club only ensures a breeder has agreed to a members' code of ethics._


This is so hyperbolic and overgeneralised it's unreal!

Many turn to peds because they've been let down by rescues. I VERY nearly didn't get Spooks and it tore me apart. Luckily, I found a way round the strict rehoming policies and was able to take him on.

If that hadn't been the outcome, my only other option would have been a good pedigree breeder. I would NEVER buy from an irresponsible breeder, who lets their cats breed willy nilly and don't care who their kittens go to. I would be supporting the 'trade' and would be making way for the next 'batch'.

It's THESE breeders that add to the rescue crisis, NOT good ped breeders.

To be honest- and this is coming from someone who volunteers their time up to 5 days a week at a shelter- a lot of rescues don't help themselves. They need to wake up and see that roaming isn't essential. That catflaps are not a necessity. That a nice house and quiet cul-de-sac is not the definition of 'good' ownership.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

crispycat said:


> my sis in laws(she is a total cat lady  ) and her friends were having a discussion about breeding pedigree cats - it got quite heated as sis in law feels that there are enough cats in the world that are homeless without breeding some just for "lines" (not sure what this meant) looks etc etc. she also said she abhors the idea of cat shows - could go on and on -but since I have never really thought about this and really don't know much about why cats are bred I was wondering what you all thought about it here.
> 
> Obviously the breeders here have done so after making an informed choice - but I'd love to hear (as I'm sure others who are in the dark like me) how it is a justified choice given that there are so many cats not just in this country but all over the world who live less than satisfactory lives.
> 
> I am not on any "side" but would just like to hear more about this so I can educate myself a bit on the subject


Right, first time I've had a bit of time to give this some proper thought.

First things first, I'm not a breeder, but as I understand it breeding 'lines' are basically the family tree of a pedigree cat. Pedigree breeders spend many, many hours studying them working out how best to mate their animals to improve the breed, widen the gene pool and avoid hereditary health issues.

As others have mentioned, some pedigree cat breeds have been around for hundreds of years, and to throw all that away would be a great shame. And as pedigrees do make up such a small percentage of the whole cat population, with the majority of homeless cats being Justas, then I don't think one can look to the pedigree breeders as being a problem. Good pedigree breeders only produce a limited number of litters (usually one per queen per year at most) and each queen is retired (spayed) at only a few years old. Kittens never leave their mums before 12 weeks of age, are homed with the greatest possible care and a detailed contract for the owners to sign regarding their welfare. Retired queens may also be rehomed, again with the utmost care.

As far as owners are concerned, choosing a pedigree may be for several reasons. Some may enjoy the look of a particular breed. Others may desire a certain kind of personality - good with children/lively and talkative/placid lap cat etc., and pedigrees are far more reliable in this aspect than Justas. There are also certain breeds which produce less allergens than many other breeds, allowing those who would normally be allergic to own a cat. Then there are people who can't have a rescue cat because although they would make loving owners, rescues refuse to rehome with them due to policies like the cat must be allowed outdoors, no children, no busy roads nearby, no other pets etc. I doubt I would qualify for a rescue cat myself in many places, as I live alone and am at work during the day, and don't have a cat flap.

Having said that, my Charlie-girl IS a second hand Justa, but adopted from friends when their new landlord decided they couldn't take their cats after it was too late for them to pull out of the move. I'd never go to a BYB, that's for sure, as in this country they are one of the major causes of the problem your sis-in-law detests so much.

Although, I wonder what your sis-in-law would have to say about my Charlie-girl being entered in the household pet section of cat shows - and that she's made Grand Champion? 

~Jes


----------



## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

JordanRose said:


> This is so hyperbolic and overgeneralised it's unreal!
> 
> Many turn to peds because they've been let down by rescues. I VERY nearly didn't get Spooks and it tore me apart. Luckily, I found away round the strict rehoming policies and was able to take him on.
> 
> ...


Completely spot on. I also got turned down for a rescue due to having to work!

But at the risk of labouring the point - once the oops litters have been guided through birth by the people with the patience of saints, are the cutesy pictures that might encourage others really necessary?


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> It just doesn´t have to be a battle of peds against moggies.


Exactly this.

Irresponsible breeders who churn out huge numbers of kittens that they can't home and irresponsible owners that dump them are the ONLY people to blame IMO.

Not the pedigree breeders who want to keep a kitten or two for themselves and have waiting lists of homes lined up. Not the responsible owners who source well-bred kittens from the responsible breeders and keep them for life.

How many ped owners can say they have never bred a litter, never dumped a cat for no good reason, never contributed for the rescue crisis? MOST!!

Not being part of the solution (i.e. adoption) for whatever reason - be that personal preference, circumstances, or crap rehoming policies - does NOT make someone part of the problem.


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Laurac said:


> Completely spot on. I also got turned down for a rescue due to having to work!
> 
> But at the risk of labouring the point - once the oops litters have been guided through birth by the people with the patience of saints, are the cutesy pictures that might encourage others really necessary?


I'll be honest and say I don't tend to comment on Oops litter picture threads 

I do take and post pics of kittens at the shelter- many of which are 'oops litters'- but that's not supporting or encouraging others, I don't think. It's to try and get them rehomed, primarily, and I like to emphasise the importance of neutering and the direct correspondence of not doing so with rescues being full to the brim.

I know you weren't aiming your point directly at me- I'm not having a go, I agree with what you're saying- I just want to clarify my standpoint in case I appear to have double standards


----------



## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Colette said:


> How many ped owners can say they have never bred a litter, never dumped a cat for no good reason, never contributed for the rescue crisis? MOST!!
> 
> Not being part of the solution (i.e. adoption) for whatever reason - be that personal preference, circumstances, or crap rehoming policies - does NOT make someone part of the problem.


Agree with most of your post - but would also guess that the vast majority of moggy owners have also never bred a litter, or dumped a cat.


----------



## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

JordanRose said:


> I'll be honest and say I don't tend to comment on Oops litter picture threads
> 
> I do take and post pics of kittens at the shelter- many of which are 'oops litters'- but that's not supporting or encouraging others, I don't think. It's to try and get them rehomed, primarily, and I like to emphasise the importance of neutering and the direct correspondence of not doing so with rescues being full to the brim.
> 
> I know you weren't aiming your point directly at me- I'm not having a go, I agree with what you're saying- I just want to clarify my standpoint in case I appear to have double standards


I am sure no one begrudges those rescue cats getting some publicity.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> Agree with most of your post - but would also guess that the vast majority of moggy owners have also never bred a litter, or dumped a cat.


Oh absolutely; but as it's pedigree breeders and buyers that are being blamed I was just trying to point out that they haven't actually done anything to CAUSE cats to be in rescue, even if they haven't got one out.

That said, I would guess the majority of moggy owners (not on here but across the country as a whole) have supported and funded the breeders that ARE part of the problem. Buying kittens from pet shops, internet ads, oops litters and the like.

But as I quoted before, peds vs moggies is not the issue. There are certainly bad breeders and owners of peds too - but given that tiny 3% statistic they can hardly be blamed for the crisis of the other 97%.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Now I'm going to go against my bit of educative Minchin, and assume that a lot of the annoyance from Crispycat is directed at me. An old timer swinging lots of weight around who no-one dare contradict, one of the _so called big hitters come on say things and no one wants to argue with them_ - lmfao - oh, and I've had a fair few PMs too of the positive nature. 

However, none of my questions have been answered - if you want a debate debate! Don't just tell everyone they are going in circles, answer some questions, invest a few mins on engaging a few brain cells and instead of popping at everyone, engage in the topic and make a few valid points.


----------



## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

I think breeding for all animals should be left to responsible breeders. Top breeders have homes lined up and even waiting lists on top of that. I think in order to reduce the amount of cats and dogs in rescue centers it's important for pet owners to be well educated on just how huge the population of animals without homes is. 
No one should breed their pet just on a whim, it should be set up with a lot of planning and forethought especially in making sure their pups or kittens will be able to get to good homes. 
A lot of puppies that end up at rescue centers are from accidental breeding, in fact one of my own rescue dogs is one of them. Her parents owners never thought a Jack Russell and a German Shepherd would be able to mate. Well trust me they can.
Neutering is vital to reducing the population of animals with no homes. But I don't think it should extend to those breeders who are responsible and have set up a system to ensure that good homes are in the waiting.


----------



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

crispycat said:


> to be fair i have really appreciated your posts in the past but just felt this was taken out of contaxt as it wasn't an attack on anyone here at all - i didn't think i needed to explain myself as it was so clear to see


I never said it was an attack on anyone here. But I did feel the need to respond to it.

When you have been refused by rescue after rescue, on silly details, it starts to gall when you read time after time 'Oh I could never get a cat from a breeder when there are so many in rescue', 'people gets pedigrees as a status symbol', 'people who buy their cats from breeders have let another rescue languish in a cage'.

I have read this a _lot,_ and its a sweeping generalisation of people that don't have rescue cats.

How would all the owners of rescue cats feel if they read loads of posts from pedigree owners stating 'well you only got a rescue because you couldnt afford a pedigree', 'people that have rescue cats only got them to show other people much they help animals', people who rescue cats help make real cat breeders bankrupt'

None of those statements would be fair or accurate, yet it seems such sweeping statements of people that dont have rescue cats is acceptable.

Fact is, I couldnt get a rescue cat from the places I tried - all those places I tried were before I joined here. I never knew such things as small private rescues even existed. Pretty sure I would be OKed for a cat from a small private rescue, without all the rules of 'must have a catflap, must be allowed to free roam, must live nowhere a road, must not work more than 2 hours a day and definitely must not live on a canal!'

So before you mention it, this is *NOT *a 'woe is me, everyone rally round me because someone is being nasty to me' post.

This is a post telling people I couldn't rescue cats, due the rescues policies. So I 'went private'. I have paid money to breeders for cats. Luckily I was in a position to be able to do that, and my breeders saw past all the 'negative' things and trusted me to care for their babies.

That doesn't make me a bad person, or a person that doesnt believe in helping cats. It just means I love cats, I love _my_ cats to the moon and back.

It means that the only way for me to have cats in my life was to go to breeders and pay cold hard cash for them.

And just so you know, Rowan, the cat that has been so ill - he is a cross breed, so a moggy, and I got him from a BYB (yes, you _are_ allowed to slate me for that, I was ignorant, but slate away, I should have researched a lot more).

He has had the best care and attention I could give him. No less than my two purebred pedigrees would have received. He will continue to get that care even when his insurance runs out (which wont be too far away!), and he gets treated exactly the same as the others. In fact he gets treated the same way any cat I might have been allowed to rescue would have been treated.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

danniandnala said:


> Just wondering if you've done same thread in dog chat xx


Diving into cat section, I wish they would, I think they'd get the same response.

Dashing off back to dog section......


----------



## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

For Jordan rose really. There's a rescue called snowball cat rescue that rescues street cats from Spain. They have some siamese and siamese x kittens for a donation. Strange there are pedigree kittens roaming the streets? A beautiful litter of siamese x rag dolls as well.


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Dear me this thread has been rattling along 

Having read the number of posts from people saying they were or would be refused cats from rescue I think this highlights the second biggest problem to overfull rescues after irresponsible pet ownership where cats are left unneutered and allowed to reproduce at will.

My sister wanted a couple of cats and applied to all of the rescue centres - RSPCA, CPL and the local cat rescue associations. She was turned down by all of them because her son was 8 years old and all required children to be at least 12 years old ... 12!!!!!! So what did she do? Not wanting a pedigree she bought a couple of kittens that were advertised in the local paper. These kittens were the result of a person not neutering their Moggie and letting it out with the intention of having kittens. I recall the cat had 5 kittens. So in this case two cats lost out on a lovely home with my sister because none of the rescues would accept her, they didn't even bother to come and see her or see how her son acted around cats  Very sad as two cats in rescue missed out on a caring home :sad:


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

MollyMilo said:


> Then I also see posts of rescue owners refused pedigrees because they wanted to let the cat out. If the rescues were more relaxed and the pedigree breeders were more relaxed, pedigrees would go to pedigree wanters and vice versa!! Everyone Would get what they would really prefer :thumbsup:
> !


Won't be relaxing here, I don't breed kittens to send them out to be road kill, hated by neighbours, bitten by snakes etc. My kittens are to be kept indoors (enclosure or harnessed outdoor access is fine), if you can't abide by that then go elsewhere, simple.

Just wanting a kitten from me doesn't mean a darn thing, I get final say.


----------



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Am glad pedigree breeders aren't so relaxed because if they were, we'd end up with the same problem as moggies (oops nests etc.).


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Just wanting a kitten from me doesn't mean a darn thing, I get final say.


With you there


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Laurac said:


> But at the risk of labouring the point - once the oops litters have been guided through birth by the people with the patience of saints, are the cutesy pictures that might encourage others really necessary?


I see your point, but the fact of the matter is that these kittens didn't ask to be born, so it's not their fault.


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Tigermoon said:


> Dear me this thread has been rattling along
> 
> Having read the number of posts from people saying they were or would be refused cats from rescue I think this highlights the second biggest problem to overfull rescues after irresponsible pet ownership where cats are left unneutered and allowed to reproduce at will.
> 
> My sister wanted a couple of cats and applied to all of the rescue centres - RSPCA, CPL and the local cat rescue associations. She was turned down by all of them because her son was 8 years old and all required children to be at least 12 years old ... 12!!!!!! So what did she do? Not wanting a pedigree she bought a couple of kittens that were advertised in the local paper. These kittens were the result of a person not neutering their Moggie and letting it out with the intention of having kittens. I recall the cat had 5 kittens. So in this case two cats lost out on a lovely home with my sister because none of the rescues would accept her, they didn't even bother to come and see her or see how her son acted around cats  Very sad as two cats in rescue missed out on a caring home :sad:


This is just a shame.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The thing rescues want least of all is cats / kittens being returned, and a lot of the rules and regulations about who they will home to have grown up from that.


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

And of course, heaven forbid that they should rehome to a home which is later found to be unsuitable. All kinds of nasty reports in the Daily Mail. All rescues have to be very careful to guard their reputations. They can lose donors and be forced to close from one mistake.


----------



## Ayla (May 3, 2012)

All nonprofit asociations that are devoted to protect and defend animals agree: due to the animal situation nowadays, adopt instead of buy and neuter are the more responsible choice. All of them agree! and that associations has not interest but protect and defend animals. Think about it.

Not everything is perfect is shelters world, that's right, so i*f your first choice (or if you know someone in the same situation) was adopt a cat/dog and they refuse to give you one for no good reasons, please don't give up. **Contact me*,* I'd love to help you to find the perfect friend for you*. There are so many animals, so we will find the one with the character, size and so on you need. When there is a will there is a way, contact me, please. I'm not around this forum often, but in any case you can contact Merlin, and she will contact me (we are in touch any time).

Adopt is always the more caring choice. And also adopting a rescue dog/cat for your family presents a wonderful opportunity to teach your children basic values of compassion and caring, and also about the value of second chances.


----------



## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Ayla said:


> All nonprofit asociations that are devoted to protect and defend animals agree: due to the animal situation nowadays, adopt instead of buy and neuter are the more responsible choice. All of them agree! and that associations has not interest but protect and defend animals. Think about it.
> 
> Not everything is perfect is shelters world, that's right, so i*f your first choice (or if you know someone in the same situation) was adopt a cat/dog and they refuse to give you one for no good reasons, please don't give up. **Contact me*,* I'd love to help you to find the perfect friend for you*. There are so many animals, so we will find the one with the character, size and so on you need. When there is a will there is a way, contact me, please. I'm not around this forum often, but in any case you can contact Merlin, and she will contact me (we are in touch any time).
> 
> Adopt is always the more caring choice. And also adopting a rescue dog/cat for your family presents a wonderful opportunity to teach your children basic values of compassion and caring, and also about the value of second chances.


Ayla you are just repeating your crusade over and over on this thread without acknowledging any other points of view - thats not a debate. Forgive me if I am wrong but I think I remember this happening with you on previous thread.


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I don't understand what the argument is. "Don't breed or buy while shelter animals die" is my mantra, but my understanding of "breed" and "buy" is BYBs, petshops, and my-unspayed-cat-escaped-and-now-I'm-stuck-with-a-litter -of-kittens- going-cheap.
I don't think anyone in their right mind would think that this message is "targeting" responsible pedigree breeders.
I personally know very few people who do keep pedigree cats. Those that did not adopt rescue cats bought them at petshops or from ads in the newspaper, and these are precisely the people the message is meant for. The average man on the street, not the careful buyer of pedigrees.
I don't know how anyone can realistically propose that responsible breeding is contributing to the problem.

With my rescue, the stats look more or less like this:
Cats awaiting adoption
Litters from feral colonies 50% (our rescue focuses on feral cats)
Cats from from oops litters: 25%
Abandoned/distressed cats/cats given up: 25%
Cats from pedigree breeders: 0%


----------



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't really get it either. I'm the only pedigree owner I know (later, when I became a breeder, I met other breeders but among my 'normal' friends/family/community, I'm the only one with a pedigree cat). The few pedigree kittens I sold are ALL neutered. 

Amongst the people I know with cats, none were from the shelter- they were all from farmers/private people. I think this is the topic which the general public should be educated about and it would be more effective if animal shelters consider these as their target audience. Often, when someone posts in a forum online (not here, but some Dutch forums) about looking for a pedigree, they get a lot of posts from people who say "Why don't you just adopt when there are so many homeless cats? Go find a farmer and get a kitten for free rather than pay hundreds for a sickly pedigree", it's like they're 'fighting' for exactly the people they so despise! (in other words, people who don't neuter their cats, let them roam around intact, have nests continuously year after year etc.). There are so many families who think "so nice for the kids to have a nest of kittens once and we can find good homes for them" (this cycle perpetuates). 

At the end of the day, everyone makes their own choices but personally, I don't think that good pedigree breeders or owners should be made to feel guilty about them opting for a pedigree as opposed to a moggie.


----------



## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

I can't work out why only 3% of the cat population are pedigrees? Surely it's more than this? Lots of people I know when discussing cats say to me. Oh I'd love a ragdoll or ooh a white Persian with blue eyes. I'm perplexed why these people then go to a moggie byb and take home kittens that are not socialised etc. these pedigree wanters, then add to the moggie over population problem. 

Do they see them as sickly? As the previous poster said? If its the initial cost, that's a silly excuse tv's, tablets, phones ect. Cost the same.  

I think I know what I'm trying to say, but it doesn't make any sense

As you were..


----------



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> I can't work out why only 3% of the cat population are pedigrees? Surely it's more than this? Lots of people I know when discussing cats say to me. Oh I'd love a ragdoll or ooh a white Persian with blue eyes. I'm perplexed why these people then go to a moggie byb and take home kittens that are not socialised etc. these pedigree wanters, then add to the moggie over population problem.
> 
> Do they see them as sickly? As the previous poster said? If its the initial cost, that's a silly excuse tv's, tablets, phones ect. Cost the same.
> 
> ...


No idea about the 3% thing.

The initial cost and the effort it takes to get a proper pedigree is more of a deterrant (so if you finally make it and get one, you're usually pretty sure you want and can take of a cat by then). Anyway I would think most people don't spend $1000 on a TV or an iPad and then leave it on the street. It'd be in their house, protected by their walls or in a bag(iPad) or something.

On the whole though, I think even BYBs, evil as they are, still release relatively little cats into the general population compared to random moggies (farm cats/ stray cats/ private families/ oops nests).

This is a topic which will never end to be honest. Everyone will think what they do and life continues!


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

I know that some people think that peds have shorter lifespans and are prone t more illness than Justas, I don´t know if this is a reason. I feel it is out of ignorance as tests are done.


----------



## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> I have to disagree on the birth control and Spain here as I also live here and am a practising catholic. Spain is a catholic country by tradition but as of today the percentage of those people who really follow the teachings of the church is very very low and a lot of them do use birth control not approved by the church. To my knowledge animals being sterilized or not is not one of the church´s policies. Though I have heard one or two people give this reason, most of the uneutered animals are around because their owners just coudn´t care less and feel money should not be wasted on animals.


Do you not think a culture that doesn't encourage birth control is a contributing factor in people not considering birth control as an option for their pets?


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2013)

My 2c is pedigree cat breeding should happen because those breeders are protecting the species of domestic cat as a whole (not just that particular breed), by breeding the healthies kittens possible. By only breeding animals free from disease and all the genetic issues they can test for, the species has a good change of continuing and not dying out.

Also, they're filling a gap in the market. There are people out there who wish they could have a pet cat with a certain personality or coat type or just an aesthetic look, and pedigree breeders have answered that call.


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

merlin12 said:


> I know that some people think that peds have shorter lifespans and are prone t more illness than Justas, I don´t know if this is a reason. I feel it is out of ignorance as tests are done.


My own personal view which is quite sweeping is that there are unfortunatley some peds out there that may be expected to have shorter lifespans but lay much of this blame firmly in the realms of BYB's and irresponsible people who breed from non-active cats who dont health test or vaccinate, know nothing about pedigrees, breed cats to the point of exhaustion, feed rubbish diets to kittens and queens, cut corners and costs and interbreed....hardly a recipe for a long lived healthy animal.

My own experiences are what inform me and my original breeding girls lived to 16 and 17 respectively, their sons to 16 and 14 and I am in touch with a lady who got a kitten from me 17 years ago and she is still going strong! These are my 'lines' that I breed from....for good reason of being proven over time for health, temperament and longevity for anyone who may think breeding 'lines' is a cosmetic issue alone.

I also believe as pedigree owners may be more involved with their cats i.e in indoor environments they may notice subtle things earlier and be more likely to consult a vet and conditions therefore be diagnosed that may otherwise be overlooked....again just a personal observation from me.

I would agree on the face of it that non peds should be hardier from their increased genetic diversity, maybe someone knows more about this than me?


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

lulubel said:


> Do you not think a culture that doesn't encourage birth control is a contributing factor in people not considering birth control as an option for their pets?


No, because most people do not follow it. If they don´t accept it how can they want to implement it?. My experience here with cat owners is that they feel it´s a cat, or the don´t want to deprive it of the right to reproduce but most of the people I know are not church goers.


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

lisajjl1 said:


> My own personal view which is quite sweeping is that there are unfortunatley some peds out there that may be expected to have shorter lifespans but lay much of this blame firmly in the realms of BYB's and irresponsible people who breed from non-active cats who dont health test or vaccinate, know nothing about pedigrees, breed cats to the point of exhaustion, feed rubbish diets to kittens and queens, cut corners and costs and interbreed....hardly a recipe for a long lived healthy animal.
> 
> My own experiences are what inform me and my original breeding girls lived to 16 and 17 respectively, their sons to 16 and 14 and I am in touch with a lady who got a kitten from me 17 years ago and she is still going strong! These are my 'lines' that I breed from....for good reason of being proven over time for health, temperament and longevity for anyone who may think breeding 'lines' is a cosmetic issue alone.
> 
> ...


Sincé Spain was the country mentioned by the OP and I live here I can say that if I have 10 friends with cats the 10 are justas and people have very Little information about cat breeds. You see a few siamese and persians, a few adventorous might have MC and I know of someone that had 2 sphynx but that is as far as it goes. When I got Merlin, none of my friends (except my aunt that knows a lot about cats) had seen on before. So the problema I see here in Spain is general ignorance when it coms to cat care, a lot of people have ancient mentalities of how they can fend for themselves, they don´t need too much care, buy supermarket food, feed what the vet says, dont question anything. I speak from experience of the number of arguments I´ve had and ended up looking mad and carzy. People see tem as animals that last what they last.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Ayla said:


> All nonprofit asociations that are devoted to protect and defend animals agree: due to the animal situation nowadays, adopt instead of buy and neuter are the more responsible choice. and that associations has not interest but protect and defend animals. Think about it..
> 
> Adopt is always the more caring choice. And also adopting a rescue dog/cat for your family presents a wonderful opportunity to teach your children basic values of compassion and caring, and also about the value of second chances.


You are painfully incorrect.  What they are referring to are pet shops, BYB's and moggy breeders. * No *legitimate association devoted to protect and defend animals would advocate letting breeds die out to alleviate the moggy over population. If you truly believe cat breeds should be allowed to go extinct you are even more ignorant than I thought.

And not to confuse you with facts, but all the recognized registries do a lot to support shelter animals.

You are spouting nothing but a bunch of sanctimonious bullshit and it's apparent what your true agenda really is.


----------



## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> sadly the Justa breed is the one that is overflowing in rescues, it is the breed that for some reason a lot of people feel they can treat in a way they would not treat a ped


I believe, in a lot of cases, it's because they didn't pay a lot of money for it. It's sad that, for many people, the more money you paid for something, the better you look after it, and this goes for animals too.


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

lulubel said:


> I believe, in a lot of cases, it's because they didn't pay a lot of money for it. It's sad that, for many people, the more money you paid for something, the better you look after it, and this goes for animals too.


Very true but then they don´t want to pay for cats. When I was going to buy a Raggdoll here for 750, I got alots, lots and lots of comments. True they all told me to go to the shelter instead of buying but they woudn´t spend that amount buying a cat, strangely a dog yes, here everybody buys their dog breeds, except the few that go to the shelter.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Cricket was "free". He's a moggy who was found in a child's backpack at school along with his sister at approximately age 4 weeks.  I adopted him before he was placed in a shelter. The result of an irresponsible breeder, be it an ooops litter or whatever.

He gets the same love and care as my others. I don't consider him any different than my two pedigrees. I disagree that people who would pay more would care for them better in most instances.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I disagree that people who would pay more would care for them better in most instances.


Sadly I don't think you're correct. You, and others who frequent this forum, are not representative. There's an old saying that people get a puppy for the dog it's going to grow into and a kitten because kittens are cute. It's all too easy to pay a few quid over for a kitten because the kids want one etc. It's still considered quite normal to leave a cat to it's own devices, to roam free and do as it pleases and all too easy to come up with any excuse as to why it's never been near a vet. A kitten is the least expensive, least troublesome pet to buy on impulse - you don't even need to spend money on a cage or a fish tank.


----------



## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Yes, I am for breeding of pedigree cats from reputable breeders. 

I have 2 rescue Moggies and my previous cat was also. I have been researching a particular breed for sometime now and have also visited a couple of breeders. 

My OH and I have made the decision that we will be adding a pedigree kitten to our family later in the year. 

Yes, the pedigree kitten will cost more money than I paid for my rescue Moggies, but will not be, treated any differently, loved any more or have more attention, they will all be treated equally 

Am I a bad person or wrong for wanting a pedigree cat? I certainly don't think I am


----------



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Toby Tyler said:


> Cricket was "free". He's a moggy who was found in a child's backpack at school along with his sister at approximately age 4 weeks.  I adopted him before he was placed in a shelter. The result of an irresponsible breeder, be it an ooops litter or whatever.
> 
> He gets the same love and care as my others. I don't consider him any different than my two pedigrees. I disagree that people who would pay more would care for them better in most instances.


I totally agree that moggies should not be treated any worse than peds and am glad you treat your moggie well. Unfortunately, as you well know, not everyone is a truly 'good' owner to their cats. This word 'good' owner will open a can of worms haha

People I know- they are all decent human beings but when it comes to their cats, they just have a different mindset. They don't abuse their cats but do feed cheap crappy food (many even think Whiskas is expensive and special), let them out (even think it's cruel to not let them out), have few toys, is not vaccinated annually (only the first vaccinations at most), not chipped, are sterilised/castrated (but only at a slightly later age, maybe around 1+ years), will deny medical care if it's expensive ("it's just a cat"), will abandon it if needed (for eg. when moving abroad, if moving and the new rental will not allow cats, don't have time for it anymore, cat has behavioral problems etc.) and so on.

In my eyes, I do not really consider them excellent owners but see, this shows I 'judge' (just like everyone else I guess). My point is, everyone has their own interpretation of what being a pet owner is and in the case of pedigrees, the standard laid by the breeder for the new owners is high. Moggies unfortunately can't command this kind of standard because of the overabundance of supply (it's like, the moggie should be bloody grateful it even gets fed regularly) so it's really sheer luck for them.


----------



## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> No, because most people do not follow it. If they don´t accept it how can they want to implement it?. My experience here with cat owners is that they feel it´s a cat, or the don´t want to deprive it of the right to reproduce but most of the people I know are not church goers.


I didn't say religion; I said culture.


----------



## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Back on this thread again. Probably for another rant 



rose said:


> For Jordan rose really. There's a rescue called snowball cat rescue that rescues street cats from Spain. They have some siamese and siamese x kittens for a donation. Strange there are pedigree kittens roaming the streets? A beautiful litter of siamese x rag dolls as well.


It's very odd that this is the case, isn't it 

Although, I'm a member of a Siamese Cat Facebook page where a lot of posters are American. There seems to be a lot of stray Siamese/ Siamese crosses over there too, there's a lot talking about rescue Meezers. They seem to be in rescues quite commonly across the pond 



Ayla said:


> All nonprofit asociations that are devoted to protect and defend animals agree: due to the animal situation nowadays, adopt instead of buy and neuter are the more responsible choice. All of them agree! and that associations has not interest but protect and defend animals. Think about it.
> 
> Not everything is perfect is shelters world, that's right, so i*f your first choice (or if you know someone in the same situation) was adopt a cat/dog and they refuse to give you one for no good reasons, please don't give up. **Contact me*,* I'd love to help you to find the perfect friend for you*. There are so many animals, so we will find the one with the character, size and so on you need. When there is a will there is a way, contact me, please. I'm not around this forum often, but in any case you can contact Merlin, and she will contact me (we are in touch any time).
> 
> *Adopt is always the more caring choice*. And also adopting a rescue dog/cat for your family presents a wonderful opportunity to teach your children basic values of compassion and caring, and also about the value of second chances.


So it'd be more caring for me to get Spooks- a cat who has behavioural issues and sensitivities- a rescue kitten as a companion; a moggy with no predictability whatsoever?

It'd be more caring for me to get a rescue who may not have been well socialised and may have behavioural problems of a similar nature?

No. It wouldn't. It would be potentially damaging for him and would be selfish. Selfish in that I like the idea of another rescue but it wouldn't be in his best interests.

I feel you blanket claims and don't think about individual circumstances.


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

lulubel said:


> I didn't say religion; I said culture.


But no artificial birth control is catholic not cultural. Being a tradutionally catholic country some people followed it nany, many years ago. Now only devout catholics do. Not wanting to digress from the topib. All Im trying to explain is that those who dont neuter cant say it's because of this as most of them only enter churches for baptisms, weddings, communions and funerals. People just dont give the animal care because they dont consider them a priority.


----------



## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I haven't read all the replies - just responding to the OP's question. I think if you want a particular "breed" of cat say a Burmese for example then it's best to buy one from a reputable breeder who knows the parentage, history, health history etc.

We always had moggies as we grew up and once we all flew the nest my mum wanted something "a bit different" and spent months researching different breeds and found that a Burmese would suit her and her lifestyle down to the ground and she bought one from a proper breeder when Coco was 14 weeks old.

Not everyone can afford to pay top dollar for a pedigree cat so there will always be a space for moggies. All our moggies have come from either word-of-mouth about someone who has kittens available, family who's cat has had kittens, or families with young children who's cat has had kittens.

Most breeders both pedigree and moggy "usually" have no problems finding homes its only those who let their cats have litter after litter after litter who cause problems.

There is a woman down my road who owns 16 cats! I'm sure half of them aren't "done" and the other day I was passing one of the pet shops and had a quick nose at the notice board and sure enough was an as for "kittens available now! 8 weeks old. Fully weaned. £40 each Call D on -------". I bet that was her! Those are the kind of breeders that annoy me!


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> What they are referring to are pet shops, BYB's and moggy breeders. * No *legitimate association devoted to protect and defend animals would advocate letting breeds die out to alleviate the moggy over population. .


Unfortunately over here, the AR fanatics do not differentiate between registered breeders and byb's. They want all breeding stopped.

They do not understand at all that registered breeders are not the problem. Our government would also rather shut down registered hobby breeders and allow puppy farms instead, with regulations, but they create income for the government while registered breeders run at a loss. 
There are similar issues threatening in the US at present.

As to the 3% of cats are pedigrees, there are stats by CFA and GCCF that record how many pedigree kittens of each breed were born. 
While moggie numbers likely have never been counted, there are estimates that can be compared. 
3% seems to be the general accepted number, though I've heard it as high as 5%. Which still leaves a massive 95% of cats as moggies.


----------

