# INFO: Emergency Protests against Trumps Muslim Ban & May's complicity



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Protests are going to be taking place right across the UK today. Please share - https://www.facebook.com/events/359732827741189/


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

And let’s be clear, Trump’s restrictions do not extend to countries where he has business dealings. Like UAE or Saudi Arabia. 
Yes, *that* Saudi Arabia where the 911 terrorists came from. 

Why you might ask? I’m sure it’s just a coincidence but those are the countries Trump has business interests with....

Just in case anyone was thinking this was really about keeping people safe and all that.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I would love to go but I'm too skint for the fare.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Would love to go, but it wouldn't be easy for me to get there and I'm no good in crowds.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

ouesi said:


> And let's be clear, Trump's restrictions do not extend to countries where he has business dealings. Like UAE or Saudi Arabia.
> Yes, *that* Saudi Arabia where the 911 terrorists came from.
> 
> Why you might ask? I'm sure it's just a coincidence but those are the countries Trump has business interests with....
> ...


You are surely not suggesting the President Trump might not want to piss off countries where he has business interests!! Perish the very thought, Mr Trump only wishes to keep his people safe, looking after his own concerns would never enter his head

I think his people might be somewhat safer if they flee to Mexico and build a very big Trump proof wall!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Apparently the list on "banned" countries is where the terrorists were trained, the list was compiled by Obama's people a few years back, so claims that Trump is favouring certain countries are unfounded.

Not sure why a very small minority feel the need to protest against another country's democratically elected leader. 63 million UK residents have shown no opposition to Mr Trump's visit.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Not sure why a very small minority feel the need to protest against another countries democratically elected leader.


Odd isn't it that we do sweet FA about Syria where people were tortured, raped, starved and killed, but feel we can interfere with another countries democratically elected leader


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't agree with Trumps policies, I would hope the US legal system will be able to reverse this .
If people in the UK want to protest that's up to them . The cost of policing the marches would be better spent
Im not able to do protests now but wouldn't do this one. I would rather the train fare went to help refugees in camps or help the people of yemen . starving to death , one child dies every 10 minutes.
The protest outside the russian embassy last year against the bombing of aleppo I think was worth while .

I think these protests follow trends and Trump is trending at the moment .

Was just googling to see what Eu leaders have said about the ban and found that Angela Merkel called fora burhka ban and regrets the open door policy . I'm shocked at that , though it was in the Telegraph so perhaps its not true .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> The protest outside the russian embassy last year against the bombing of aleppo I think was worth while .


How few turned out for that? Just a few hundred


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Was it that low ?  Depressing .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Was it that low ?  Depressing .


Even the papers estimated 300 and they usually go high


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

List of state visits received by Queen Elizabeth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_visits_received_by_Queen_Elizabeth_II

Trump was spanked for talking to taiwan president and accused of being undiplomatic and upsetting China.

I think theresa may was being diplomatic , its wise not too say too much in a live interview being shown around the world . She could have said a little more though e.g suggest more discussion with him and other leaders .


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> terrorists were trained, the list was compiled by Obama's people a few years back, so claims that Trump is favouring certain countries are unfounded.


Unfounded? Yeah... Okay. And I have ocean front land in Arizona for sale.

Anyone who thinks Trump is going to serve any interests but his own is going to be sorely dissaponted.

You said it yourself, Obama complied the list of countries under the guidance of the State Department, the Department of Homeland security, Department of Defense, you know, people in the know. 
Trump did not. He didn't consult anyone who actually knows what's up. (Probably just his alt-right puppeteer Bannon *shudder*)
He just bulldozed through with an executive order that no one knew how to implement or what to do with, hence the massive confusion at airports and people being detained completely unnecessarily. People with permanent visas, university students on grant research trips, translators who risked their lives for American interests. It's shameful and republican senators like McCain and Graham are denouncing what he did.

Oh and the 911 highjackers were trained in Saudi Arabia. A country exempt from the ban. But, also a country Trump has a hotel (or several) in. What a crazy coincidence huh?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> And I have ocean front land in Arizon for sale


Not going to get into a argument with a fellow George Strait fan


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Apparently the list on "banned" countries is where the terrorists were trained, the list was compiled by Obama's people a few years back, so claims that Trump is favouring certain countries are unfounded.
> 
> Not sure why a very small minority feel the need to protest against another country's democratically elected leader. 63 million UK residents have shown no opposition to Mr Trump's visit.


Because our government are shamefully appeasing this tyrant.



rona said:


> Odd isn't it that we do sweet FA about Syria where people were tortured, raped, starved and killed, but feel we can interfere with another countries democratically elected leader


I went on a demo against Cameron bombing Syria. Did you?

You're engaging in whataboutery again.



kimthecat said:


> I don't agree with Trumps policies, I would hope the US legal system will be able to reverse this .
> If people in the UK want to protest that's up to them . The cost of policing the marches would be better spent
> Im not able to do protests now but wouldn't do this one. I would rather the train fare went to help refugees in camps or help the people of yemen . starving to death , one child dies every 10 minutes.
> The protest outside the russian embassy last year against the bombing of aleppo I think was worth while .
> ...


I'd love the government to spend more money on refugees, & allow more refugees in - protests will make no difference to the amount of money they will spend on refugees. This government is pandering to the hard right who even complain about bringing in a few refugee children from Calais.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> whataboutery


New favorite word. I shall be stealing that one, thanks


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

ouesi said:


> New favorite word. I shall be stealing that one, thanks


It is a great word I first heard it used by a naturalist I admire very much.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dams posted this on the other Trump thread. Just come back from Cambridge city centre - about 300 of us to start and easily more than twice that when I left and it's got another hour or so to run. Lots of people from the University speaking very very well about how it'll affect them, MPs from all sides turning out too. Really good show of support for our friends across the world affected by this and some moving words. Here's a pic from when I got there.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Because our government are shamefully appeasing this tyrant.


63 million UK residents are unconcerned with his visit. Is it possible you are wrong?

I don't go to protests, most are pointless and achieve nothing, and there is always the real fear that Bob Geldof will show up.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> there is always the real fear that Bob Geldof will show up.


HaHaHa


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This is what makes me proud of my country. Apparently tens of thousands of protestors are outside Downing Street, the entirety of Whitehall has been shut down.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> 63 million UK residents are unconcerned with his visit. Is it possible you are wrong?
> 
> I don't go to protests, *most are pointless and achieve nothing*, and there is always the real fear that Bob Geldof will show up.


If you don't got to protests then how do you know?!

I've heard some very powerful stories in the brief time I was there - I can't stay too long as a disability prevents me from marching - but I absolutely believe in first person education through speeches from real people affected - not politicians - and shows of support.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> This is what makes me proud of my country. Apparently tens of thousands of protestors are outside Downing Street, the entirety of Whitehall has been shut down.
> 
> View attachment 298949


'uckin' awesome!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> 63 million UK residents are unconcerned with his visit. Is it possible you are wrong?
> 
> I don't go to protests, most are pointless and achieve nothing, and there is always the real fear that Bob Geldof will show up.


You have any evidence 63 million residents are unconcerned?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Glasgow


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

> 63 million UK residents are unconcerned with his visit. Is it possible you are wrong?


I don't know but you certainly are. Don't think the millions of children under the age of 10 in the UK have signed the petition.

Do you write for the Daily Mail? I only ask because you seem to have a similar grasp of statistics.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

More from Whitehall


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Exeter










Oxford










Sheffield


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Apparently tens of thousands of protestors are outside Downing Street, the entirety of Whitehall has been shut down.


Fantastic!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Mirandashell said:


> I don't know but you certainly are. Don't think the millions of children under the age of 10 in the UK have signed the petition.
> 
> Do you write for the Daily Mail? I only ask because you seem to have a similar grasp of statistics.


Exactly. I think its already over 2% of the electorate that have signed that petition.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Leeds










More from Downing Street. OMG Incredible scenes


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> You have any evidence 63 million residents are unconcerned?


I haven't signed any petition nor attended any demonstration and I'm concerned. I was concerned when I saw those images of May being led by the hand by Trump (thought it looked one step away from him leading her by a ring through her nose) and I'm concerned now.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Manchester.

Aw look at this poor guy.



















Brighton


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Think..not everyone uses fb or net...or emails...so it is quite significant number...enough to prepare great welcome party if Orange Bully came...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

havoc said:


> I haven't signed any petition nor attended any demonstration and I'm concerned. I was concerned when I saw those images of May being led by the hand by Trump (thought it looked one step away from him leading her by a ring through her nose) and I'm concerned now.


Yes, there must be loads of concerned people haven't signed the petition or gone to the protests.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> I'd love the government to spend more money on refugees, & allow more refugees in - protests will make no difference to the amount of money they will spend on refugees.


Yes , they should spend much more, I wisht hey would , but what I really meant was the money the protesters spend , they could have donated that , it would have raised a fortune and ave lives but the thing with that is they don't get so much satisfaction back from that as they do when they join a crowd to protest . Less back slapping etc . less shared experience.
Also the policing cost much be thousands and that mean less resources else where .

Love or hate him , this is an official state visit and he represents the USA , so in that sense I think it would be insulting to the country if it is cancelled.

I would say it would be more effective for those to protest when he is on his visit , it will get much more publicity around the world and be more embarrassing for him and in your face as he is in the country and not far away in the US.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I'm sure that if he does come here there will be protests. It's not really an either/or.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> If you don't got to protests then how do you know?!
> 
> .


 You don't have to go protests to know the effect and the result it had. I went to many and it takes more than demos to stop bad things .


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Yes , they should spend much more, I wisht hey would , but what I really meant was the money the protesters spend , they could have donated that , it would have raised a fortune and ave lives but the thing with that is they don't get so much satisfaction back from that as they do when they join a crowd to protest . Less back slapping etc . less shared experience.
> Also the policing cost much be thousands and that mean less resources else where .
> 
> Love or hate him , this is an official state visit and he represents the USA , so in that sense I think it would be insulting to the country if it is cancelled.
> ...


But these protests are showing solidarity with the good people of America. We are standing with America against Trump. And if he comes for a visit the protestors will be there - 10 fold, I imagine. I will definitely make arrangements so I can go.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

But that's no reason to stop having them. Protest is important.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

> I will definitely make arrangements so I can go.


I'm saving up so I can go.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Mirandashell said:


> I'm saving up so I can go.


Hey maybe we could meet up


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Mirandashell said:


> I'm sure that if he does come here there will be protests. It's not really an either/or.


 yes I'm certain there will be but my point is that I think the demos being held _now_ are waste of time and money that could be put to a better use and i think they will be more effective when he is in the country and will attract more attention .


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> I would say it would be more effective for those to protest when he is on his visit , it will get much more publicity around the world


Ya think? By the time he comes here (and he will come) it could be illegal in this country to protest. If not it will be illegal to report it. I'd reckon Ms May is secretly jealous of his ability to wield a powerful pen. We've stopped her first attempt at dictatorship, I doubt we'll continue to be so successful.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I don't think they are. It's us using our democratic right to tell the Government how we feel. And there are a lot of Americans who are scared right now about the future. This is us, in an age of global social media, letting them know they are not alone. 

You keep saying that it's a waste of time. What do you think we should do instead?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> But these protests are showing solidarity with the good people of America. We are standing with America against Trump.


That's what twitter is for. 



> And if he comes for a visit the protestors will be there - 10 fold, I imagine. I will definitely make arrangements so I can go.


 Yes , Ive already covered this in to other posts .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

havoc said:


> Ya think? By the time he comes here (and he will come) it could be illegal in this country to protest. If not it will be illegal to report it. I'd reckon Ms May is secretly jealous of his ability to wield a powerful pen. We've stopped her first attempt at dictatorship, I doubt we'll continue to be so successful.


  :Hilarious


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious


 What is this a reply to?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> But that's no reason to stop having them. Protest is important.


There are many ways to protest


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> You don't have to go protests to know the effect and the result it had. I went to many and it takes more than demos to stop bad things .


Indeed but it can help those who are the victims to know that they are thought of. With a toe in several minority groups (not related to Trump yet), I can vouch that knowing that people are thinking and listening, took the time to go out means a lot. That's not to say that social media and forums like this aren't effective in sharing facts, far from it. It's all important.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Mirandashell said:


> I don't think they are. It's us using our democratic right to tell the Government how we feel. And there are a lot of Americans who are scared right now about the future. This is us, in an age of global social media, letting them know they are not alone.
> 
> You keep saying that it's a waste of time. What do you think we should do instead?


 yes absolutely , it is your right , fair enough .if you want to do that , do it .

BTW Protests have been around centuries , its not a new global social media thing . Global social media is Twitter and what not and very effective for spreading the word .

The on- line petition for trump to be banned has been successful , its being discussed in parliament . Far more successful than a demo .

I'm not against all demos , there are millions of people all round the world right now , suppressed women , people being tortured and killed , etc etc , forgotten about now , they need help , they're forgotten about .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Mirandashell said:


> What is this a reply to?


To what Havoc said . Its below her quote in my post .


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> yes I'm certain there will be but my point is that I think the demos being held _now_ are waste of time and money that could be put to a better use and i think they will be more effective when he is in the country and will attract more attention .


In the coverage I have seen so far online and the event I've just come from in Cambridge has people talking. That's actual people who are affected by this rule speaking to people like me who are not. That's direct evidence that isn't twisted by the media or Facebook, but real life stories and that's so important. Protest can provide a huge educational resource. My PhD proposal is about the power of protest and I can share many examples of when protest has failed and when it has worked but in all cases they were educational and powerful at sharing information in a way that no other medium can.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> To what Havoc said . Its below her quote in my post .


Oh right, sorry. I can't see her posts so didn't realise there was one.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> yes absolutely , it is your right , fair enough .if you want to do that , do it .
> 
> BTW Protests have been around centuries , its not a new global social media thing . Global social media is Twitter and what not and very effective for spreading the word .
> 
> ...


Protest have been around for a long time yes and did you know that in very recent research by Goldsmiths University on Brexit, that the poster is still the most powerful protest medium over anything else. In the Paris uprising of 1968, the police placed themselves at the School of Fine Arts. The work of Atelier Populaire shows the history of protest power when strikes and protests seemed set not only to bring down the government of France but to bring in a politics of a very different kind. De Gaulle, the French President, went into hiding and fled to Germany while other political figures made plans to leave the country, believing that the government was on the brink of being overthrown by violent revolution.

I don't think online or in person are exclusive. The research I've done on protest graphics indicates that protests in person fuel online and vice versa. I would imagine that almost everyone who went to the protests also signed the petition. And, as Trump was so quick to argue with the media in the USA, the quantity of who turns out clearly bothers him. And bothering Trump can only be a good thing.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> Indeed but it can help those who are the victims to know that they are thought of. With a toe in several minority groups (not related to Trump yet), I can vouch that knowing that people are thinking and listening, took the time to go out means a lot. That's not to say that social media and forums like this aren't effective in sharing facts, far from it. It's all important.


Yes I see your point , though there has been condemnation of Trump on the media, TV etc not just social media. If people who went on the demos donated the costs to charities that helped minorities , it could have a bigger impact too , perhaps more directly helping people


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Mirandashell said:


> Oh right, sorry. I can't see her posts so didn't realise there was one.


 Oh right . That must have looked odd . I can see why you asked .


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> If people who went on the demos donated the costs to charities that helped minorities ,


It is possible to do both.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Yes I see your point , though there has been condemnation of Trump on the media, TV etc not just social media. If people who went on the demos donated the costs to charities that helped minorities , it could have a bigger impact too , perhaps more directly helping people


I think many do. I certainly donate to specific charities and the groups that organise the marches in Cambridge certainly are involved supporting minority groups, it's all very closely related. The march last Sat about Trump wasn't organised by those wearing the pussy hats though there were many but by global support groups for many minorities.

Edited to say that the majority of the organisation in Cambridge is through either Anglia Ruskin University or Cambridge University, both of which have a very strong support for minority groups and do a lot of academic and awareness group in those areas. Like I said, protests are about education and sharing information. If you take a look at the women's marches online and I would predict the many protests to come, you'll see banners for many groups because Trump's policies can fuel a lot of misinformation and phobias, for many.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> Protest have been around for a long time yes and did you know that in very recent research by Goldsmiths University on Brexit, that the poster is still the most powerful protest medium over anything else. In the Paris uprising of 1968, the police placed themselves at the School of Fine Arts. The work of Atelier Populaire shows the history of protest power when strikes and protests seemed set not only to bring down the government of France but to bring in a politics of a very different kind. De Gaulle, the French President, went into hiding and fled to Germany while other political figures made plans to leave the country, believing that the government was on the brink of being overthrown by violent revolution.
> 
> I don't think online or in person are exclusive. The research I've done on protest graphics indicates that protests in person fuel online and vice versa. I would imagine that almost everyone who went to the protests also signed the petition. And, as Trump was so quick to argue with the media in the USA, the quantity of who turns out clearly bothers him. And bothering Trump can only be a good thing.


 That's very interesting. I didn't know that . 
Yes . I do believe Trump will gets his comeuppence . I trust the US legal system and the political opposition will keep him in check and stop the damage .


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> That's very interesting. I didn't know that .
> Yes . I do believe Trump will gets his comeuppence . I trust the US legal system and the political opposition will keep him in check and stop the damage .


I'm afraid I don't have your faith - wish I did! And I don't think that necessary is the answer - going back to that word 'education' again. Men like Trump will be elected again until the implications of why he was elected are understood. Even impeachment doesn't really help. The legacy of revolution and uprisings is knowledge.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Funny to think over the years there's been many demos, the Poll Tax and the Iraq War are two that come to mind, now the Trump event.

I don't recall any demos against the EU in the UK unless I've missed something!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

"_Say it loud, say it clear, refugees are welcome here!" _I love Leeds <3


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)




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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Mirandashell said:


> I'm saving up so I can go.


Follow your dream.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> Funny to think over the years there's been many demos, the Poll Tax and the Iraq War are two that come to mind, now the Trump event.
> 
> *I don't recall any demos against the EU in the UK unless I've missed something*!


It was called a referendum.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Telegraph: 
_Barack Obama launched a stinging rebuke of Donald Trump's immigration orders and refugee ban on Monday evening, warning that "American values" were at stake. The former president re-entered the political fray just ten days after he handed power over to Mr Trump and stated that he supported mass protests against the "extreme vetting" orders. "The President fundamentally disagrees with the notion of discriminating against individuals because of their faith or religion," Mr Obama's spokesman said in a statement that was the former president's first since leaving office. "Citizens exercising their Constitutional rights to assemble, organise and have their voices heard by their elected officials is exactly what we expect to see when American values are at stake." _


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Gary Lineker in the Westminster crowd


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Nice one!


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Satori said:


> Follow your dream.


You can mock but it's bloody difficult on £80 a week.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> I think many do. I certainly donate to specific charities and the groups that organise the marches in Cambridge certainly are involved supporting minority groups, it's all very closely related. The march last Sat about Trump wasn't organised by those wearing the pussy hats though there were many but by global support groups for many minorities.
> 
> Edited to say that the majority of the organisation in Cambridge is through either Anglia Ruskin University or Cambridge University, both of which have a very strong support for minority groups and do a lot of academic and awareness group in those areas. Like I said, protests are about education and sharing information. If you take a look at the women's marches online and I would predict the many protests to come, you'll see banners for many groups because Trump's policies can fuel a lot of misinformation and phobias, for many.


I've done demos from 70s to 90s . save the seals , whales , anti vivisection , against export of live animals , anti fur They would trend and then forgotten about by most of the demonstraters . The seal rally outside canadian embassy , not even a hundred people turned up . Even today , I still boo when I pass it . 
Black lives matter didn't have much impact here despite the best efforts of the organisers and the shootings of black people in America . perhaps it didn't catch the moment or maybe people here weren't worried enough .

The women's demo , Why just make it just about Trump , we have problems in this country , FMG for example . Receives little attention, I bet many people don't even know what it is . A demo would help draw attention to it .


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> The women's demo , Why just make it just about Trump , we have problems in this country , FMG for example . Receives little attention, I bet many people don't even know what it is . A demo would help draw attention to it .


The women's march was not just about Trump at all. It was about women, all sorts of women's rights issues. Domestic violence, health, rights, equal pay, body autonomy, which yes, includes FGM, etc., etc., etc. It was not an anti-Trump rally, it was a pro-women rally. It just so happens that the two intersect.

As for FGM (put the acronym in order), you'd have to be living under a rock to not be aware of that issue. Unless there are more rocks in the UK than here?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

The Scots say it succinctly. :Hilarious


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

ouesi said:


> As for FGM (put the acronym in order), you'd have to be living under a rock to not be aware of that issue. Unless there are more rocks in the UK than here?


There are a lot of rocks here


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> You have any evidence 63 million residents are unconcerned?


Yes, the 63 million that DIDN'T sign the petition. Don't claim there are millions of others all against his visit posting on social media, they'll be the same million that signed, you can't count them twice more.

If you run a poll abide by its result. Less than 2% in your favour means you are in a very small minority.

Has Geldof turned up yet? (I've not been watching the news so if he has I apologise for the redundant question).


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes, the 63 million that DIDN'T sign the petition.


What is your evidence that they are unconcerned? Not signing a petition doesn't mean you're not concerned. It just means you haven't signed the petition. 
I'm concerned about many things, doesn't mean I sign a petition for all of them or any of them.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

samuelsmiles said:


> It was called a referendum.


The point I'm making is there hasn't been any mass anti EU demos before and after the referendum that Farage said would happen.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Yes well... Nigel Farage.....


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

> The women's demo , Why just make it just about Trump , we have problems in this country , FMG for example . Receives little attention, I bet many people don't even know what it is . A demo would help draw attention to it .


It wasn't originally anything to do with Trump. It was first mooted and organised when everyone thought Clinton would win. It got overtaken by events.

And FGM does get attention. There are people working to end it in this country. There are laws against it and guidelines for people who work in the NHS. There just aren't any marches.


----------



## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> Yes , they should spend much more, I wisht hey would , but what I really meant was the money the protesters spend , they could have donated that , it would have raised a fortune and ave lives but the thing with that is they don't get so much satisfaction back from that as they do when they join a crowd to protest . Less back slapping etc . less shared experience.


Ok, so this isn't scientific proof, but the vast majority of those I know who have gone on protest marches tonight are those who are already giving loads of time and money to help refugees (in a couple of cases, having refugees staying in their homes too) Just because someone goes on a march, it doesn't mean they don't do anything else. Likewise, it doesn't follow that those who don't march don't care.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> What is your evidence that they are unconcerned? Not signing a petition doesn't mean you're not concerned. It just means you haven't signed the petition.
> I'm concerned about many things, doesn't mean I sign a petition for all of them or any of them.


It means 98% of the population are so unconcerned by his visit they don't even bother to spend thirty seconds signing a online petition. It's a insignificant issue to the vast majority. If, however, you seek out the minority and join in with all their social media hysteria, then I can see how you might think you are, mistakenly, with the majority. You can't argue with such a vast difference in numbers.

Let's face it, a 4% majority won Brexit, which apparently is going ahead. Do you really think a 98% majority will be ignored regarding Mr Trump's visit? As I said before, people shouldn't start a poll if they are going to ignore the result when it doesn't go their way?


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> It means 98% of the population are so unconcerned by his visit they don't even bother to spend thirty seconds signing a online petition.


I think you're confused.
Not signing a petition means... not signing a petition. Nothing more, nothing less.

I didn't sign the petition, doesn't mean I'm not concerned. I doubt I am the only one in this position.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

The only petition I've seen was one protesting Trump's visit as it would be embarrassing for the Queen. Well, I couldn't sign that as it trivialises the whole issue. I don't think Trump should be honoured with a state visit because I don't think a man who behaves as he does is worthy of ANY honour. Honouring him is condoning his behaviour and saying it's ok. If I'd found a petition for that, I'd have signed it, but I can't sign one based on avoiding embarrassment to the Queen (who is far too strong-minded to be embarrassed by him - in fact, she might give him a piece of her mind as she is very determined lady!)


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

It's gone way beyond embarrassment to the Queen.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

ouesi said:


> What is your evidence that they are unconcerned? Not signing a petition doesn't mean you're not concerned. It just means you haven't signed the petition.
> I'm concerned about many things, doesn't mean I sign a petition for all of them or any of them.


 So what do you do when you're concerned about something? What will you being doing to show your concern about Trump ?


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Hmmm... not really a fair question when you didn't answer mine about what you think people should do instead of protest.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> So what do you do when you're concerned about something? What will you being doing to show your concern about Trump ?


I have contacted my senators and representatives at the state and federal level. For some I made direct phone calls, not emails.

I have thanked John McCain and Lindsey Graham for going against their party stance and standing up for what's right. I have shared their personal statements on the matter on FB where I am friends with people who don't agree with me politically and will probably be very interested to see me share a republican's statement 

And that's just a start....


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@ouesi and a very good start too.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

Oh, and I'm also supporting the Alt National Parks Service and the Association of National Park Rangers. The National Park service was "muzzled" by the Trump administration after they posted comparison photos of Trump's inauguration vs. Obama's. (The Mall in Washington is run by NPS.) The photos came out, were quickly deleted, and an apology sent out. Then it comes out that that the NPS received a memo specifying what they could and could not post about on social media. So the workers all created "Alt" accounts that can't be muzzled. It's seriously the best thing ever, makes me smile every time I see a post from them 










https://www.facebook.com/AltUSNationalParkService/

And a statement:
"This morning former Director Jon Jarvis made this statement about recent events involving the National Park Service:

"I have been watching the Trump administration trying unsuccessfully to suppress the National Park Service with a mix of pride and amusement. The NPS is the steward of America's most important places and the narrator of our most powerful stories, told authentically, accurately, and built upon scientific and scholarly research. The Park Ranger is a trusted interpreter of our complex natural and cultural history and a voice that cannot not be suppressed. Edicts from on-high have directed the NPS to not talk about "national policy", but permission is granted to use social media for visitor center hours and safety. The ridiculousness of such a directive was immediately resisted and I am not the least bit surprised. So at Martin Luther King Jr. National Historic Site in Atlanta should we not talk about his actions to secure the rights to vote for African Americans in the south, or is that too "national policy"? At Stonewall National Monument in New York City, shall we only talk about the hours you can visit the Inn or is it "national policy" to interpret the events there in 1969 that gave rise to the LGBT movement? Shall we only talk about the historic architecture of the Washington, DC home of Alice Paul and Alva Belmont or is it too "national policy" to suggest their decades of effort to secure the rights of women can be linked directly to the women's marches in hundreds of cities last weekend? And as we scientifically monitor the rapid decline of glaciers in Glacier National Park, a clear and troubling indicator of a warming planet, shall we refrain from telling this story to the public because the administration views climate change as "national policy"? These are not "policy" issues, they are facts about our nation, it is how we learn and strive to achieve the ideals of our founding documents. To talk about these facts is core to the mission of the NPS. During the Centennial of the National Park Service, we hosted over 300 million visitors (now that is huge) to the National Parks and most came away inspired, patriotic and ready to speak on behalf of the values we hold most dear. The new Administration would be wise to figure out how to support the National Park Service, its extraordinary employees and their millions of fans."


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Oh that is so cool!


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

For those who wish to do something tangible and boycott Trumpy's businesses and those of the people who supported him, there's an app for that.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/boycotttrump/id1171663655?mt=8

ETA: Don't use that app yet. I'm hearing rumours of data collection. Will let you know what I find out.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

And here's a list of organisations that need support:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...76?v4gtris0aafua6ecdi&section=us_queer-voices

Just in case you think protests don't change anything.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Some more good signs out there 










The Scots have some belters, most of which are not family friendly sadly, but not all:



















You KNOW the Welsh are getting serious at this point:










Even the English are starting to use some pretty strong language:










And my personal favourite so far:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I think this tweet says it all:

London organised this in a day.

Imagine what's going to be waiting for you when you arrive for a State visit


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Scenes from Liverpool


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Massive credit to wonderful Owen Jones for organising this at such short notice 








*Owen JonesVerified account*‏@*OwenJones84* 10h10 hours ago

Wow. Just wow. Unbelievable turnout at London's #*StandUpToTrump* demo - against

racism and against weak, weak, weak, Theresa May's complicity


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

London last night. Londoners came out in force to protest against Donald Trump's travel bans.

Outside Downing Street

















Outside Whitehall


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes, the 63 million that DIDN'T sign the petition.


I didn't sign it. This assumption that anyone who doesn't make some tangible sign of agreeing with X must mean they don't care or agree with Y is ridiculous. I'm very grateful that those who could made the effort to get to demonstrations on my behalf and in my name.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

May was told LAST WEEK that a US refugee ban was coming! https://www.channel4.com/news/by/gary-gibbon/blogs/theresa-may-told-a-us-refugee-ban-was-coming


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

Is it me or does his face look like its been rolled in wotsit dust pmsl


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Creativecat said:


> Is it me or does his face look like its been rolled in wotsit dust pmsl


Its not just you lol


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

A great tweet from an environmental hero of mine, Bill Mckibben.








*Bill McKibben* ‏@*billmckibben* 14h14 hours ago

Looking at pictures of giant anti-Trump rallies across the UK. 
The guy is uniting the world!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> So what do you do when you're concerned about something? What will you being doing to show your concern about Trump ?


Just been chatting this one through with OH. He's too infirm to go to a demo and I would have to organise stand in care for my father to be able to take the time. So when there's one with a bit more notice we've decided to fund a few people who want to go but can't afford it.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> It means 98% of the population are so unconcerned by his visit they don't even bother to spend thirty seconds signing a online petition. It's a insignificant issue to the vast majority. If, however, you seek out the minority and join in with all their social media hysteria, then I can see how you might think you are, mistakenly, with the majority. You can't argue with such a vast difference in numbers.
> 
> Let's face it, a 4% majority won Brexit, which apparently is going ahead. Do you really think a 98% majority will be ignored regarding Mr Trump's visit? As I said before, people shouldn't start a poll if they are going to ignore the result when it doesn't go their way?


Nope - I haven't signed it - because I don't believe it will do any good....... the eejit is coming - even if ALL the UK signed it, he'd still be coming

Also May isnt holding his hand..... apparently he suffers from Bathmophobia and grabbed May to steady himself going down a slope.......


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

[QUOTE="noushka05, post: 1064764212, member:

Looking at pictures of giant anti-Trump rallies across the UK. 
The guy is uniting the world!][/QUOTE]

Not in the way May and Trump intended!


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> Nope - I haven't signed it - because I don't believe it will do any good....... the eejit is coming - even if ALL the UK signed it, he'd still be coming.......


Yes we know but the more signatures that can be obtained will show both May and Trump's policies aren't welcomed by all.

They didn't listen when the Poll Tax was introduced initially. People didn't sit down and accept it.

So why should we sit down and accept the dreadful Brexit proposals and Trump's visit?

May and Trump believed they could unite everyone with their vile policies.

How wrong they were.....


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

KittenKong said:


> Yes we know but the more signatures that can be obtained will show both May and Trump's policies aren't welcomed by all.
> 
> They didn't listen when the Poll Tax was introduced initially. People didn't sit down and accept it.
> 
> ...


Well you sit down and accept it because both Brexit and Trump are the results of a democratic process. The poll tax wasn't.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

My new favourite protest sign:


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

FFS he's sacked his attorney general !

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38805944


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Well you sit down and accept it because both Brexit and Trump are the results of a democratic process.


By that logic opposition MPs should never disagree with or vote against a government - they should just accept whatever is put forward because a government was elected by democratic process.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> FFS he's sacked his attorney general !
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38805944


Well, that was likely to happen anyway, being as it was Obama's nominee. Doing it before he has a nominee of his own approved is unusual, though.

However, I don't think any of us are surprised - he's a non-mature millionaire playboy bully not used to people who will not only say 'No' to him and mean it but also stand their ground afterwards, so he doesn't know how to handle disagreements with anything other than a blunt instrument.

The only real question is how he's going to act when he finally realises the rest of the world isn't going to kowtow and toe the line just because he says so...


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Jesthar said:


> The only real question is how he's going to act when he finally realises the rest of the world isn't going to kowtow and toe the line just because he says so...


I don't think he is going to realise any time soon. He said he was going to do these things and he's carrying out election promises. That's how he and presumably plenty of Americans who voted for him will see it.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

havoc said:


> By that logic opposition MPs should never disagree with or vote against a government - they should just accept whatever is put forward because a government was elected by democratic process.


No, that's why you get to vote every five years. If you don't like the current government you vote for someone to oppose them and hopefully gain power. That's exactly why the opposition are called such.

What you don't do is go onto the streets to protest against democracy. We have Brexit, we have Trump, and it's up to our elected government, and opposition, to now work with that.


----------



## Guest (Jan 31, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> What you don't do is go onto the streets to protest against democracy. We have Brexit, we have Trump, and it's up to our elected government to now work with that.


I am quite fascinated at this mentality. 
So because that's the way the vote swung (both incredibly close votes, and in the case of Trump a very clear majority did NOT vote for him), we should just sit back and do nothing.

Since when does being a responsible citizen include not making your voice heard?

Nobody is in the streets protesting *against* democracy. What a ludicrous interpretation of the marches. 
People are in the streets as a show of solidarity with those who are directly and indirectly affected by Trump's poorly thought out and executed immigration policy. 
It is a celebration of democracy to practice your right to free speech in a peaceful way - which these protests have been.


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Yes we know but the more signatures that can be obtained will show both May and Trump's policies aren't welcomed by all.
> 
> They didn't listen when the Poll Tax was introduced initially. People didn't sit down and accept it.
> 
> ...


It was voted for..... it was democratic...... its how it works. No I don't like it, but then it was plain to see this is what he was going to do, so I believe this is actually way too late (I mean what has he got to do to get booted???) - he still got VOTED in. I also never said I was doing nothing, just that I had not signed the pointless petition. I believe we are still paying some version of Poll Tax....... albeit by another name, thankfully IMO.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> No, that's why you get to vote every five years. If you don't like the current government you vote for someone to oppose them and hopefully gain power.


So do you believe there shouldn't be an opposition? That there should be no checks and balances, that an elected government should never be questioned or criticised? Most governments come to power on little more than a third of the possible vote. I don't have too much sympathy with those who don't bother to vote but they're still entitled to their opinion, to voice that opinion in whatever legal way they choose.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

havoc said:


> So do you believe there shouldn't be an opposition? That there should be no checks and balances, that an elected government should never be questioned or criticised? Most governments come to power on little more than a third of the possible vote. I don't have too much sympathy with those who don't bother to vote but they're still entitled to their opinion, to voice that opinion in whatever legal way they choose.


He has opposition in SPADES........ doesnt seem to be doing a great deal to stop him sadly :Jawdrop:Inpain:Jawdrop


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

havoc said:


> So do you believe there shouldn't be an opposition? That there should be no checks and balances, that an elected government should never be questioned or criticised? Most governments come to power on little more than a third of the possible vote. I don't have too much sympathy with those who don't bother to vote but they're still entitled to their opinion, to voice that opinion in whatever legal way they choose.


Please point me in the direction where I said there shouldn't be an opposition, because I must be getting Alzheimer's as I can only recall pointing out there is an opposition.

Actually if you don't bother to vote I don't really think you have a leg to stand on if you're not happy with the current parliament.

Anyhow, I'll leave this thread now as it seems some people are just looking for a pointless argument.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Anyhow, I'll leave this thread now as it seems some people are just looking for a pointless argument.


Why walk away? Why not continue to debate? It's only become a 'pointless' argument in your mind because so far you haven't made your point.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer and let them think you are friends


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Please point me in the direction where I said there shouldn't be an opposition, because I must be getting Alzheimer's as I can only recall pointing out there is an opposition.
> 
> Actually if you don't bother to vote I don't really think you have a leg to stand on if you're not happy with the current parliament.
> 
> *Anyhow, I'll leave this thread now as it seems some people are just looking for a pointless argument.*


Yes, you 

Some people don't vote because they don't like any of the candidates available in their area.

Some people didn't vote because they were too young to vote, perhaps by a matter of days.

Some people may have changed their mind after voting.

Some people may not have voted due to an unexpected medical emergency.

And so on...

"We voted, end of!" is not how a true, mature democracy works. Nor is "We won, so you don't get a say."

Incidentally, protest is what won the common man and eventually women the right to vote. And also a lot of other important things, such as safe working conditions and many workers protections. Or are those bad things too?


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

havoc said:


> Why walk away? Why not continue to debate? It's only become a 'pointless' argument in your mind because so far you haven't made your point.


Oh go on then 

My point is simple, Brexit and Mr Trump are both the results of a democratic process.

You can either like or dislike the results. You can't change them because that's democracy for you.

By protesting against either you are effectively protesting against the will of the majority and/or democracy.

Whether you want Mr Trump to visit the UK is irrelevant. He's the elected leader of our closest ally, as such he will need to visit to maintain and progress cooperation between our countries. It seems odd some people are so fearful of exiting the EU but keen to piss off, and possibly break ties, with the USA.

I think that's about it, and I look forward to your questions (sorry watched Dragons Den last night)!


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> My point is simple, Brexit and Mr Trump are both the results of a democratic process.


And you say in an earlier post that the poll tax wasn't.


Dr Pepper said:


> Well you sit down and accept it because both Brexit and Trump are the results of a democratic process. *The poll tax wasn't*.


Last night's protests were against a policy introduced by a democratically elected leader. Isn't that what the poll tax was?


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh go on then
> 
> My point is simple, Brexit and Mr Trump are both the results of a democratic process.
> 
> ...


And there, in a nutshell, is where your logic is flawed. The right to dissent and protest and campaign for change are essential cornerstones of democracy. Without them, you don't have democracy, you have a dictatorship masquerading as democracy - at best.

Incidentally, the suppression of protest and the labelling of it as anti-<insert your country here>/a crime against the will of the people/treason is a key step in the establishment of a dictatorship.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

havoc said:


> And you say in an earlier post that the poll tax wasn't.
> 
> Last night's protests were against a policy introduced by a democratically elected leader. Isn't that what the poll tax was?


No, people are protesting about a elected leader, and close ally, entering the country and meeting with our head of state and politicians. That's different to protesting about his policies. If it's the policy they dislike then protest to him directly when he's here, I'm ok with that.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> No, people are protesting about a elected leader, and close ally, entering the country. That's different to protesting about his policies.


The objection is only there because of his policy - or at least it's only there in such numbers because of the policy. It isn't an objection against the office of President coming on a state visit.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

It's because of his policies that people are protesting about him coming here. So yes, they are protesting about his policies


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Jesthar said:


> And there, in a nutshell, is where your logic is flawed. The right to dissent and protest and campaign for change are essential cornerstones of democracy. Without them, you don't have democracy, you have a dictatorship masquerading as democracy - at best.
> 
> Incidentally, the suppression of protest and the labelling of it as anti-<insert your country here>/a crime against the will of the people/treason is a key step in the establishment of a dictatorship.


Yes for sure, protesting for the right to vote, workers rights etc was correct because they were protesting for new laws and reforms. Protesting against Brexit, which was voted for recently by the majority, and not even implemented yet, is undemocratic simply because you want to go against the will of the majority.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

havoc said:


> The objection is only there because of his policy - or at least it's only there in such numbers because of the policy. *It isn't an objection against the office of President coming on a state visit.*


Correct, it's against the evil man that is in the office at the moment.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

havoc said:


> The objection is only there because of his policy - or at least it's only there in such numbers because of the policy. It isn't an objection against the office of President coming on a state visit.


Yes but he IS the office of President, one and the same, you can't separate the office from the man and the policy.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Protesting against Brexit, which was voted for recently by the majority, and not even implemented yet, is undemocratic simply because you want to go against the will of the majority


What does that have to do with Trump's recent actions?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes but he IS the office of President, one and the same, you can't separate the office from the man and the policy


I can. I can in this particular instance because he's acted to introduce policy without going through democratic process.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes but he IS the office of President, one and the same, you can't separate the office from the man and the policy.


Yes you can, you absolutely can and people do. Hence the protests. They're not anti the Americans or the American President. They're not out there burning American flags, they're protesting Mr. Trump. A person not dignified for the office he holds.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> They're not anti the Americans or the American President


I'm relieved you recognise this  I'd take a wild guess Mr Trump doesn't agree.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

I give up. It's President Trump as democratically elected by his country (who they elect President has **** all to do with you or I) You are objecting to the current President of the USA entering the UK. Whatever your reasoning that is the long and short of it.

And all he's actually doing is what he was voted in to do. So by objecting to this policy you are actually protesting against the citizens of the USA as they voted him in on the back off it.

If nothing else, whatever your views of him, you have to admit it's amazing to see a newly elected head of state implement his election policies so quickly.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> If nothing else, whatever your views of him, you have to admit it's amazing to see a newly elected head of state implement his election policies so quickly


It's far from amazing. We're not amazed at all.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

C


Dr Pepper said:


> I give up. It's President Trump as democratically elected by his country (who they elect President has **** all to do with you or I) You are objecting to the current President of the USA entering the UK. Whatever your reasoning that is the long and short of it.
> 
> And all he's actually doing is what he was voted in to do. So by objecting to this policy you are actually protesting against the citizens of the USA as they voted him in on the back off it.
> 
> If nothing else, whatever your views of him, you have to admit it's amazing to see a newly elected head of state implement his election policies so quickly.


Citizens of Germany elected Hitler.
What he did next surpassed expectations of many of them.

Trump is another dangerous egotist and I believe he might lead America to war if left to his own devices .


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> It's President Trump as democratically elected by his country (who they elect President has **** all to do with you or I) You are objecting to the current President of the USA entering the UK.


That's the point - the people of the UK objecting to a UK state visit which is not the same as just entering the country.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

cheekyscrip said:


> C
> Citizens of Germany elected Hitler.
> What he did next surpassed expectations of many of them.
> 
> Trump is another dangerous egotist and I believe he might lead America to war if left to his own devices .


I don't think is right to liken him to Hitler.

"Lead America to war"!!!! Well shit, that'd make him no different from previous Presidents, it's those recent President's (and our own PM's) that contributed to the current terrorist situation.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> You are objecting to the current President of the USA entering the UK. Whatever your reasoning that is the long and short of it.


I think you're missing some nuances here. 
The reason people are objecting to Mr. Trump's visit is because of the travel ban (sorry, restrictions) he has put on specific countries. It's not about the American President, it's about the executive order he put in place that affects not just Americans but people throughout the world. It's a show of solidarity. Letting these people affected know that they are not alone and not everyone agrees they should be treated like this. It's a social message to the Muslim community that *we* the people don't consider you the enemy, our president does not speak for us.



Dr Pepper said:


> And all he's actually doing is what he was voted in to do. So by objecting to this policy you are actually protesting against the citizens of the USA as they voted him in on the back off it


The majority of US citizens did not vote for Trump. He won the electoral college, not the popular vote. No one thinks this is against the US citizens except you. US citizens are very happy to see the UK join them in their objection to US policy. This US citizen for sure is.



cheekyscrip said:


> Trump is another dangerous egotist and I believe he might lead America to war if left to his own devices .


You are not the only one who is afraid of this. Senator John McCain (republican) is making some strong statements against Trump and his policies. He is a knowledgeable and respected statesman, and I hope he continues to stand up to Trump and gain more and more support.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> Well you sit down and accept it because both Brexit and Trump are the results of a democratic process. The poll tax wasn't.


You are wrong. The Poll Tax (as the Community Charge) was clearly proposed in the 1987 Conservative Party manifesto. The Tories won that election so the Poll Tax was indeed, "The will of the people".

The same argument is being used by Trump supporters. He made no secret of his stance on immigration and the Mexican wall. I'm sure they're using the, "Will of the people" argument there too.

Adolf Hitler was democratically elected. Do you think the world should have sat down and accepted that as his victory was the result of a "Democratic process"?

Just because something is, "The will of the people", doesn't make something right.

No, I will NOT sit down and accept it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer and let them think you are friends


and then offer them your NHS as a little gift?. https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/nhs-theresa-mays-dowry-gift-to-donald-trump

*'If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the* *oppressor*' - Desmond Tutu


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> I think you're missing some nuances here.
> The reason people are objecting to Mr. Trump's visit is because of the travel ban (sorry, restrictions) he has put on specific countries. It's not about the American President, it's about the executive order he put in place that affects not just Americans but people throughout the world. It's a show of solidarity. Letting these people affected know that they are not alone and not everyone agrees they should be treated like this. It's a social message to the Muslim community that *we* the people don't consider you the enemy, our president does not speak for us.
> 
> The majority of US citizens did not vote for Trump. He won the electoral college, not the popular vote. No one thinks this is against the US citizens except you. US citizens are very happy to see the UK join them in their objection to US policy. This US citizen for sure is.
> ...


Look it's simple (re UK protest), and tell me where I've got this wrong.

Trump ran an election campaign on the policies he thought would get him elected. Those policies included, to a big degree, a restriction on Muslims entering the USA and a friggin big wall. He got elected on those policies. That's why he is now president.

Now let's presume his election campaign instead promised a ban on all firearms, open borders and a multi-billion dollar project to combat global warming so he could save that polar bear who's forever floating around. Who would be President today, Trump or Clinton? Now unless you can say with all honesty it would still be Trump then you have to admit the UK protesters are protesting about the USA's citizens and the policy they voted for, rather than the man. Unless of course people are protesting just because they don't like Trump and have taken this policy as the route to do it, na, couldn't possibly be that.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> I've done demos from 70s to 90s . save the seals , whales , anti vivisection , against export of live animals , anti fur They would trend and then forgotten about by most of the demonstraters . The seal rally outside canadian embassy , not even a hundred people turned up . Even today , I still boo when I pass it .
> Black lives matter didn't have much impact here despite the best efforts of the organisers and the shootings of black people in America . perhaps it didn't catch the moment or maybe people here weren't worried enough .
> 
> The women's demo , Why just make it just about Trump , we have problems in this country , FMG for example . Receives little attention, I bet many people don't even know what it is . A demo would help draw attention to it .


The coverage I saw on the news and the woman's march I attended, did include many women's issues - I felt it was a call to arms on many things that simply culminated with Trump's abortion policy and general attitude to feminism. I can't think that rights for women globally will get any better with Trump in power.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Look it's simple (re UK protest), and tell me where I've got this wrong.


In your assumption that the of the timing of protests and the subject are just coincidental. They may be for some, it may be that the most recent events are that step too far for others. Waiting until someone does something bad before reacting isn't reacting to the person. If these protests had happened in the U.K. before he'd done anything which affects us I'd understand your objection more. What can't be denied is the right to protest.


----------



## Guest (Jan 31, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Now let's presume his election campaign instead promised a ban on all firearms, open borders and a multi-billion dollar project to combat global warming so he could save that polar bear who's forever floating around. Who would be President today, Trump or Clinton? Now unless you can say with all honesty it would still be Trump then you have to admit the UK protesters are protesting about the USA's citizens and the policy they voted for, rather than the man. Unless of course people are protesting just because they don't like Trump and have taken this policy as the route to do it, na, couldn't possibly be that.


Why can't it be both? 
Both protesting the man and protesting his policies?
The man is a disgrace, his policies just add to him being a disgraceful human being.

For what it's worth, I agree with you about him keeping his campaign promises. This is exactly what he said he would do and he's doing it. What is frightening is that he is making unilateral, unresearched decisions without the support of the people who will be charged with enforcing these policies. That is, dare I say it? Not how a democracy works.


----------



## Guest (Jan 31, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Trump ran an election campaign on the policies he thought would get him elected. Those policies included, to a big degree, a restriction on Muslims entering the USA and a friggin big wall. He got elected on those policies. That's why he is now president.


Yeah, meant to reply to this part too...

Again, you are way oversimplifying something that is much more complex. 
First off, there is a very real possibility that Trump won, not because of his policies, but because of Russian intervention in our political system. Let's not forget that rather important detail. 
Secondly, I know many people who voted for Trump who assumed that his talk of walls and Muslim bans were a lot of bravado and not something he was *really* going to do once in office. Or if he did, it would be a watered-down version of his big talk on the campaign trail. These people have gone very quiet lately. 
Yes, of course, there is also the Neanderthal component of our population who really do want a wall and really do want those godless Muslims gone. But should we really be pandering to the will of people who are openly racist and bigoted? People of the Alt-right persuasion who want to see schools going back to being segregated (under the guise of "choice" of course) and other policies that Americans have worked so hard to overcome?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Why can't it be both?
> Both protesting the man and protesting his policies?


In many cases I'm sure it is. I do however, have some sympathy with Dr Pepper's argument that your electoral process is your business. Where our paths diverge (big time) is the idea that democratic process begins and ends with an election. I find the whole concept that once elected, someone should have the power to do as they choose without fear of scrutiny or opposition totally abhorrent. Election should be the start of democratic process, not the end.


----------



## Guest (Jan 31, 2017)

havoc said:


> In many cases I'm sure it is. I do however, have some sympathy with Dr Pepper's argument that your electoral process is your business. Where our paths diverge (big time) is the idea that democratic process begins and ends with an election. I find the whole concept that once elected, someone should have the power to do as they choose without fear of scrutiny or opposition totally abhorrent. Election should be the start of democratic process, not the end.


Exactly, part of the democratic process is holding elected officials accountable. You don't just elect them and leave them to it!


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> Look it's simple (re UK protest), and tell me where I've got this wrong.
> 
> Trump ran an election campaign on the policies he thought would get him elected. Those policies included, to a big degree, a restriction on Muslims entering the USA and a friggin big wall. He got elected on those policies. That's why he is now president.
> 
> Now let's presume his election campaign instead promised a ban on all firearms, open borders and a multi-billion dollar project to combat global warming so he could save that polar bear who's forever floating around. Who would be President today, Trump or Clinton? Now unless you can say with all honesty it would still be Trump then you have to admit the UK protesters are protesting about the USA's citizens and the policy they voted for, rather than the man. Unless of course people are protesting just because they don't like Trump and have taken this policy as the route to do it, na, couldn't possibly be that.


Well said Dr. Unlike the majority of members on this thread, I have greater respect for the American people than to assume I know better than they do. Trump is delivering on his election promises. Simple. Would that more elected leaders followed his example.


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

Just read 91% of yesterday's protesters where remainers in last yrs referendum. And tht the protestors tht signed the petition had to give a post code and it shows loads reside in Brighton Oxford london Cambridge and Edinburgh . And mostley students great swathes of the country didnt give a flying f**k
This was relayed by Nigel farage . I'm still trying to make sense of all this tbh


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

LOL! 91%? Really? Do you have any actual evidence?

Oh sorry, I just noticed you got this from Nigel Farage. Tells us all we need to know.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> Whether you want Mr Trump to visit the UK is irrelevant. He's the elected leader of our closest ally, as such he will need to visit to maintain and progress cooperation between our countries. It seems odd some people are so fearful of exiting the EU but keen to piss off, and possibly break ties, with the USA.!


US "our greatest ally"?, then you said this:



Dr Pepper said:


> "Lead America to war"!!!! Well shit, that'd make him no different from previous Presidents, it's those recent President's (and our own PM's) that contributed to the current terrorist situation.


Hmmmm.........

I don't recall the EU ever leading the UK to a war.


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

Tbh I'm more shocked at the arab icountries tht haven't accepted any Syrian refugees atall and ban Jewish people from entering there borders I think them issues deserve to be highlighted more and acted upon there is so much hypocrisy with every nations values its eye watering . Im No flag waving fan of America but how can they have so much levelled at them when the acusing countries don't even follow there own moral compass


----------



## Guest (Jan 31, 2017)

Creativecat said:


> Just read 91% of yesterday's protesters where remainers in last yrs referendum. And tht the protestors tht signed the petition had to give a post code and it shows loads reside in Brighton Oxford london Cambridge and Edinburgh . And mostley students great swathes of the country didnt give a flying f**k
> This was relayed by Nigel farage . I'm still trying to make sense of all this tbh


Is this a sarcastic post? I can't tell.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Creativecat said:


> Tbh I'm more shocked at the arab icountries tht haven't accepted any Syrian refugees atall and ban Jewish people from entering there borders I think them issues deserve to be highlighted more and acted upon there is so much hypocrisy with every nations values its eye watering . Im No flag waving fan of America but how can they have so much levelled at them when the acusing countries don't even follow there own moral compass


But do two wrongs make a right?

The US should be leading by example and be critical of such countries, not becoming like them.


----------



## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Is this a sarcastic post? I can't tell.





ouesi said:


> Is this a sarcastic post? I can't tell.


No it was true not verbatim but if u go to lbc radio Internet thingy it's on there with graphs stats n bits


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Creativecat said:


> Just read 91% of yesterday's protesters where remainers in last yrs referendum


Did they have to sign in and answer a question about the referendum to join the protest? If so - why?


----------



## Guest (Feb 1, 2017)

Creativecat said:


> No it was true not verbatim but if u go to lbc radio Internet thingy it's on there with graphs stats n bits


I know this is in English, but I seriously do not understand any of it.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Creativecat said:


> No it was true not verbatim but if u go to lbc radio Internet thingy it's on there with graphs stats n bits


:Jawdrop


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Creativecat said:


> No it was true not verbatim but if u go to lbc radio Internet thingy it's on there with graphs stats n bits


I had a look at the website but I didnt know where to look for it . I couldn't see it .
If you could find it and copy and paste a link , it would help .


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

The map data is on the petition site - showing the link between the number of people who signed and this constituency data
Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale
Rt Hon David Mundell MP
Conservative
2,153 signatures
2.47% of 86,993 constituents

However to jump from there to how people who signed voted in the referendum is just a guess as there was no question within the process to link the two. Not quite sure how it would invalidate the petition though, unless people are now trying to say you were on the losing side of the referendum therefore your opinion doesn't count on any topic?


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/178844



kimthecat said:


> I had a look at the website but I didnt know where to look for it . I couldn't see it .
> If you could find it and copy and paste a link , it would help .


http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=171928


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

For all of the faults of trump and his administration like him or loath him he pretty much puts our government 
To shame . Look wht can be done in 
Less than two weeks . I don't agree with some of his views but look at our health tourism when a women from over seas can run up a bill of £500.000 and walk away wht ever ur view tht can't be right surely .


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Creativecat said:


> For all of the faults of trump and his administration like him or loath him he pretty much puts our government
> To shame . Look wht can be done in
> Less than two weeks . I don't agree with some of his views but look at our health tourism when a women from over seas can run up a bill of £500.000 and walk away wht ever ur view tht can't be right surely .


One individual being able to surround themselves with like thinking buddies in positions of power is a dictatorship. I really don't know how American politics work but I hope the Americans can depose him if they feel he's gone too far.

We don't want that here, an individual with that much power is never a good idea


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> One individual being able to surround themselves with like thinking buddies in positions of power is a dictatorship. I really don't know how American politics work but I hope the Americans can depose him if they feel he's gone too far.
> 
> We don't want that here, an individual with that much power is never a good idea


Do you think we should be forging trade deals with this burgeoning dictator?

Brian Cox has a point.








*Brian Cox* ‏@*ProfBrianCox* Jan 29

A lot of people voted to leave the EU last
year in good faith. Now the world has changed.
Now we have a choice to make. Europe or Trump?

1,151 replies 7,242 retweets 11,014 likes


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Creativecat said:


> For all of the faults of trump and his administration like him or loath him he pretty much puts our government
> To shame . Look wht can be done in
> Less than two weeks . I don't agree with some of his views but look at our health tourism when a women from over seas can run up a bill of £500.000 and walk away wht ever ur view tht can't be right surely .


You really want our country to become even more bigoted then it already is? Trump is a dangerous fascist. Our government are shaming us by not condemning his actions in the strongest terms. We look weak.


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

noushka05 said:


> You really want our country to become even more bigoted then it already is? Trump is a dangerous fascist. Our government are shaming us by not condemning his actions in the strongest terms. We look weak.


Thts true but we are stuck between a rock and a hard place . It's a shame how countries are tearing themselves apart from such decisive decisions . It's truley sad but innevetable


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Creativecat said:


> Thts true but we are stuck between a rock and a hard place . It's a shame how countries are tearing themselves apart from such decisive decisions . It's truley sad but innevetable


I disagree. We can choose to align ourselves with an unhinged madman or stay where we are. Not a difficult decision for me.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Creativecat said:


> For all of the faults of trump and his administration like him or loath him he pretty much puts our government
> To shame . Look wht can be done in
> Less than two weeks .


Don't executive orders have to be approved by Congress? They can be implemented immediately but aren't automatically law. They're also subject to Judicial review but of course he can just sack anyone who tries that.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Creativecat said:


> Just read 91% of yesterday's protesters where remainers in last yrs referendum. And tht the protestors tht signed the petition had to give a post code and it shows loads reside in Brighton Oxford london Cambridge and Edinburgh . And mostley students great swathes of the country didnt give a flying f**k
> This was relayed by Nigel farage . I'm still trying to make sense of all this tbh


Well, using Farage's logic 9% were leave voters in his referendum.

That's more than enough to overturn his victory.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Creativecat said:


> . I don't agree with some of his views but look at our health tourism when a women from over seas can run up a bill of £500.000 and walk away wht ever ur view tht can't be right surely .


I thought you were referring to Theresa May on first reading your post!


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

Oh ok I meant his ways but how it made our pm look inept tbh


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Farage and Trump must have discussed immigration and I can quite imagine them both convincing themselves that Britain would be right behind Trump's plans. Farage needs to save face now if he's to stay Trump's BFF (at least in his head).


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Creativecat said:


> Oh ok I meant his ways but how it made our pm look inept tbh


Would be interesting to hear how much May's visits far and wide are costing the tax payer!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

KittenKong said:


> Would be interesting to hear how much May's visits far and wide are costing the tax payer!


The same as any other Prime Minister in the same situation . PMs visit other countries , if she didn't visit other countries at this time . she wouldnt be doing her job. If she sat at home , she would be criticised for that.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Would be interesting to hear how much May's visits far and wide are costing the tax payer


In money or reputation? Travel costs are insignificant.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Our government are shaming us by not condemning his actions in the strongest terms. We look weak.


Well according to the cartoons and comments you post here , we already look stupid so I don't think looking weak will make much difference.


----------



## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)




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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Well according to the cartoons and comments you post here , we already look stupid so I don't think looking weak will make much difference.


Do you think we look good on the world stage at the moment? We've always punched above our weight and I do think it's going to be hard work to maintain that image.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@havoc TBH I dont really know . perhaps individual countries think different things . I think it will be hard work too.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@havoc I think if Brexit doesn't go ahead , I think that will make us look indecisive and weak .


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> @havoc I think if Brexit doesn't go ahead , I think that will make us look indecisive and weak .


It goes ahead. It makes us look arrogant and stupid.


----------



## Guest (Feb 1, 2017)

After today’s performance in honor of Black History Month, I wouldn’t be worried about him coming to the UK. I’d be worried about him being able to articulate a coherent sentence that’s not insulting while here.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Still refusing to condemn Trump's immigration policy May has the cheek to suggest Corbyn is insulting Trump, the "UK's "Greatest ally". Says it all about her own politics.

I'm no fan of Corbyn but surely he's entitled to his opinion?


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Still refusing to condemn Trump's immigration policy May


I heard her condemn it yesterday.



KittenKong said:


> Corbyn is insulting her,


What did he say?


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

According to the BBC red button Corbyn asked, " Just what President Trump has to do", for his UK state invitation to be withdrawn?"

In which May accused Labour of insulting the UK's most important ally.

Did May really condemn it? Why did it take her a few days to say anything?!

Ahem, I meant insulting him (ie Trump) not her! Original post corrected.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Why did it take her a few days to say anything?!


Because she's not like Trump


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rona said:


> Because she's not like Trump


Perhaps not in personality but her politics appear to be remarkably similar.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Well according to the cartoons and comments you post here , we already look stupid so I don't think looking weak will make much difference.


Looking stupid's one thing, looking like a lap dog to a fascist is quite another. She looks totally pathetic amongst principled & courageous leaders of other countries who have condemned Trumps actions in the strongest terms. She shames not only herself but Britain too. History wont be kind to her or our country.

I totally as agree with Caroline Lucas (as per) -
*Theresa May's Disgraceful Cowardice Has Let Britain Down*

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/caroline-lucas/donald-trump-protest_b_14492852.html?1485782280&


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps not in personality but her politics appear to be remarkably similar.


Absolutely! Heres an interesting article highlighting those similarities. -
*

Of course May backed Trump's Muslim ban - she's as bad as he is*

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...backs-trump-s-muslim-ban-she-s-as-bad-as-he-i


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> @havoc I think if Brexit doesn't go ahead , I think that will make us look indecisive and weak .


A principled leader would not impose a disastrous hard brexit on us. It was not on the ballot paper.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Absolutely! Heres an interesting article highlighting those similarities. -
> *
> 
> Of course May backed Trump's Muslim ban - she's as bad as he is*
> ...


Always thought so with her anti immigration stance since she was Home Secretary.

This had been forgotten about by many: Quote taken from Noushka's politics.co.uk link in #192


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Always thought so with her anti immigration stance since she was Home Secretary.
> 
> This had been forgotten about by many:
> View attachment 299224


You really should quote your sources, without them these quotes are just propaganda

Oh yes I remember, Yvette Cooper said it, while May was attempting to stop *illegal *
immigration

Isn't Yvette now using similar language but from a different angle? 
"There are so many things you can look back on doing; there was getting the figures wrong in the first place; the need to look at the impact on the labour market, particularly on low-skilled employment; to look at the need for support, she said

"I don't think that we should equate Donald Trump and Brexit," she said. "I think that it's really important not to get sucked into doing that, because people did not vote for Nigel Farage. They voted in a referendum about EU institutions, for all kinds of reasons."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...debate-on-immigration-as-she-launches-inquiry


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> You really should quote your sources, without them these quotes are just propaganda


Seriously? Theresa May's 'Go Home' vans were well reported in the media I tend to read - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/22/go-home-billboards-pulled


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rona said:


> You really should quote your sources, without them these quotes are just propaganda
> 
> Oh yes I remember, Yvette Cooper said it, while May was attempting to stop *illegal *
> immigration
> ...


Sorry for the oversight, was a screenshot from Noushka's link in #192 from politics.co.uk. Post amended.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Seriously? Theresa May's 'Go Home' vans were well reported in the media I tend to read - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/22/go-home-billboards-pulled
> 
> View attachment 299226


I'd actually forgot about that until you reminded me, like so many others have.

Talk about despicable, "106 arrests in your area last week".

Something I'd expect from the National Front. And to think EU citizens could be the next targets in addition post Brexit....


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Martin Shovel's on the ball as always.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> I'd actually forgot about that until you reminded me, like so many others have.
> 
> Talk about despicable, "106 arrests in your area last week".
> 
> Something I'd expect from the National Front. And to think EU citizens could be the next targets in addition post Brexit....


May is responsible for inciting hatred. Tories created the austerity crisis to destroy public services then scapegoated immigrants. Many people voted leave believing the EU and Immigrants were the problem. Real problem the tories policies - & the Neoliberals are still there - only now even more extreme. This is hard right government we have now. Things are set to get a whole lot worse.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rona said:


> "I don't think that we should equate Donald Trump and Brexit,"


I was a bit confused earlier in the thread when a poster kept bringing up Brexit as I was seeing them as completely separate issues too. I do though see a connection in that once we don't have Europe we'll be very isolated and it is leaving the EU that will force us into closer ties than many of us may wish with the USA. When we voted in our referendum I don't think anyone thought we'd end up in this position with Trump. The more Teresa May insists on either saying nothing or defending him the more I'm concerned that our position is even more precarious than most of us imagine.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

havoc said:


> The more Teresa May insists on either saying nothing or defending him the more I'm concerned that our position is even more precarious than most of us imagine.


She has condemned his policy on immigration. She actually said it was "divisive and wrong". I saw her say it with my own eyes but the press have never picked up on it

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rumps-travel-ban-divisive-and-wrong/97330620/


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> She has condemned his policy on immigration. She actually said it was "divisive and wrong". I saw her say it with my own eyes but the press have never picked up on it
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rumps-travel-ban-divisive-and-wrong/97330620/


Too little too late. Shes just scrabbling not to look like a fascist sympathiser. Weak!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Really interesting short video of the protest on Monday. There are some very clued up compassionate people out there. They give me some hope.
*
"We can't let fascism become mainstream*"


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> May is responsible for inciting hatred. Tories created the austerity crisis to destroy public services then scapegoated immigrants. Many people voted leave believing the EU and Immigrants were the problem. Real problem the tories policies - & the Neoliberals are still there - only now even more extreme. This is hard right government we have now. Things are set to get a whole lot worse.


Absolutely. Those vans targeted areas with a high "immigrant" population, ignoring the fact many are legally in the UK where others were born and bred here. How very insensitive I doubt it was seen in predominantly "white" areas.

May has bleated on about reducing immigration since she became Home Secretary.

Well, it looks like its already started with the report that EU students studying in the UK has reduced by 7%. Whether people think this is a good or bad thing is down to personal opinion.

Personally I think it's sad but I don't blame them for taking their studies to a country that welcomes them.









http://www.independent.co.uk/news/e...cent-brexit-latest-news-figures-a7558131.html


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rona said:


> She has condemned his policy on immigration


As Noush said - too little and definitely too late. She's certainly not blessed with the gift of timing.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> It was not on the ballot paper


To be honest, @noushka05, I don't think there was anything much on the ballot paper other than a) are you in, or b) are you out (not in those exact words exactly, of course).


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

havoc said:


> As Noush said - too little and definitely too late. She's certainly not blessed with the gift of timing.


Also I suspect the massive backlash with the protest & the petition had something to do with her saying anything at all. Maybe that's just my cynical mind lol


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Calvine said:


> To be honest, @noushka05, I don't think there was anything much on the ballot paper other than a) are you in, or b) are you out (not in those exact words exactly, of course).


My point exactly.

We should have a 2nd referendum on the type of brexit we want. It should have been made crystal clear we were voting to make ourselves a hell of a lot poorer. The extreme brexit we're heading for means no nhs - never mind all the money we were promised for it. Even less money for already severely slashed public services. I'm sure people didn't vote for this.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Even Prince Charles expressed his concerns before Christmas.

The sooner his mother retires and gives him the throne the better I say.









http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...m-dark-days-thought-for-the-day-a7489876.html


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

havoc said:


> As Noush said - too little and definitely too late. She's certainly not blessed with the gift of timing.


I believe it was a measured response, far better than the hysteria that's gripped some.
She is behaving like a leader not a back room brawler


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

rona said:


> I believe it was a measured response, far better than the hysteria that's gripped some.
> She is behaving like a leader not a back room brawler


Theresa May has a different approach to being a leader/Prime Minister. She thinks about things before responding or putting things in action.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Well, it looks like its already started with the report that EU students studying in the UK has reduced by 7%.


And a 5% fall in British applicants............maybe the government initiative on apprenticeships is the main reason.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/civil-service-fast-track-apprenticeship-who-can-apply#nationality
*Your nationality*
You can apply for the Fast Track apprenticeship if you're a:


European Economic Area (EEA) national, including a British citizen
Commonwealth citizen
Swiss national
Turkish national, in some circumstances
Eligibility requirements are explained in the Civil Service nationality rules.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> I believe it was a measured response, far better than the hysteria that's gripped some.
> She is behaving like a leader not a back room brawler





stockwellcat said:


> Theresa May has a different approach to being a leader/Prime Minister. She thinks about things before responding or putting things in action.


Is that why shes rolling out the red carpet as fast as she can?

(Letter to Times from Lord Ricketts, former permanent secretary at the Foreign Office)


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rona said:


> I believe it was a measured response,


I don't necessarily disagree with that Rona, I just think she backs herself into a corner with bad timing and doesn't come out looking particularly statesmanlike because of it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

How many boxes do the USA tick in the wake of Trump? How many do we tick now? Very worrying so many people seem to be oblivious we are hurtling towards fascism. History will judge the apologists & the fence sitters, as it did once before.

http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm

*The 14 Defining 
Characteristics Of Fascism*

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and
the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders,
even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed
to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Even Prince Charles expressed his concerns before Christmas.
> 
> The sooner his mother retires and gives him the throne the better I say.


Oh god I hope not. If the Queen has any sense she will pass it down to William, that is of course if she wants the Royal family to continue!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

So many heartbreaking stories. Where has the compassion gone? What are we becoming?? Muslims are human beings - just like we are. THEY are terrified.

Do we really want to form an alliance with a tyrant like Trump over our European neighbours?

BBCs John Simpson. 
*
John Simpson* ‏@*JohnSimpsonNews* 18h18 hours ago

_I've had some nasty experiences at US airports over the years but am
haunted by story of handcuffing of half-Iranian 5 yr-old. Disgraceful





_


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> And a 5% fall in British applicants............maybe the government initiative on apprenticeships is the main reason.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/civil-service-fast-track-apprenticeship-who-can-apply#nationality
> *Your nationality*
> ...


 The rise in fees I think would put people off. I believe that students nursing bursaries were being stopped, I dont know if that went a head .

The Bank of England has upgraded its growth forecast by 2% .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

It seems ironic that nearly 4oo years ago the Mayflower set said to America from our shores in pursuit of religious freedom.

I wonder if any Christians from the the banned countries have arrive in the US since the ban and if they had any problems . 

It seems nowadays that there is much negativity about religion in recent years , people saying it should be banned and blaming it for all the problems in the world , its good to see so many defending religious people and their freedom.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> The rise in fees I think would put people off. I believe that students nursing bursaries were being stopped, I dont know if that went a head .


Still nothing to do with Brexit or immigration though eh?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> Oh god I hope not. If the Queen has any sense she will pass it down to William, that is of course if she wants the Royal family to continue!


Why on earth not? I'm no fan of the monarchy, but if the UK must have one it's about time Charles had his turn.

Is it because he speaks his mind rather than sit back and quietly enjoy the life of luxury as most of them do?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rona said:


> And a 5% fall in British applicants............maybe the government initiative on apprenticeships is the main reason.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/civil-service-fast-track-apprenticeship-who-can-apply#nationality
> *Your nationality*
> ...


Using your argument these include the EEA area which includes, shock horror, the EU!

The UK is soon leaving that and the EEA as we know so that could change......


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Using your argument these include the EEA area which includes, shock horror, the EU!
> 
> The UK is soon leaving that and the EEA as we know so that could change......


I'm not arguing, just pointing out alternative views


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Why on earth not? I'm no fan of the monarchy, but if the UK must have one it's about time Charles had his turn.
> 
> Is it because he speaks his mind rather than sit back and quietly enjoy the life of luxury as most of them do?


Well tbh if he was to become king he would likely become less out spoken.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

havoc said:


> I was a bit confused earlier in the thread when a poster kept bringing up Brexit as I was seeing them as completely separate issues too. *I do though see a connection in that once we don't have Europe we'll be very isolated and it is leaving the EU that will force us into closer ties than many of us may wish with the USA.* When we voted in our referendum I don't think anyone thought we'd end up in this position with Trump. The more Teresa May insists on either saying nothing or defending him the more I'm concerned that our position is even more precarious than most of us imagine.


I think Brexit is closely linked as Britain is a very small country and likely to be dominated either by the USA or the EU. Now that we are leaving the EU, we are more closely affected by the USA than ever before. And with the relationship between Trump and May as it is, I don't think it is possible to imagine a future that is more precarious than the reality is likely to be.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> Odd isn't it that we do sweet FA about Syria where people were tortured, raped, starved and killed, but feel we can interfere with another countries democratically elected leader


Some people have problems prioritizing


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> 63 million UK residents are unconcerned with his visit. Is it possible you are wrong?
> 
> I don't go to protests, most are pointless and achieve nothing, and there is always the real fear that Bob Geldof will show up.


Gob geldof,


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

There is another petition doing the rounds for those supporting trumps visit last time I looked it it's gone just over a quarter of a million signatures it started on the 30th of Jan


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> Well tbh if he was to become king he would likely become less out spoken.


You're probably right.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Trumps coming..

Putin came, so did Chinese President Xi Jinping..............both been in power many years..

Give Trump a chance


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Comment from a friend of a friend on FB: 

"OK, I've changed my mind. We SHOULD have Donald Trump come on a state visit, but ONLY on the condition that he agrees to do an hour long live interview with Jeremy Paxman.

Because I've got £20 that says Paxman can make him cry inside of 10 minutes..."

I think I'd be up for watching that...


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## Laylah63 (Jan 18, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> I'm sure that if he does come here there will be protests. It's not really an either/or.


Or an assassination!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Laylah63 said:


> Or an assassination!


Little point to putting Trump on a pedestal, he isn't worth a bullet.:Hilarious


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

its that old "we dont agree with a democratic vote" syndrome....

boo hoo we lost


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2017)

Are they covering his fiasco at the National Prayer Breakfast on that side of the pond?

That was the most disrespectful display at a religious gathering. I just cringed... And I'm not one to defend religion or the religious. But this wasn't even making any point about anything. It was just gross. 
He bragged about his ratings on the Apprentice, said Arnold Schwarzenegger caused the ratings to tank, asked the fellow participants to pray for the ratings to improve, said "to hell with it" (again, not appropriate considering the audience or the event). Just disgusting. 

This is on the heels of his equally disgusting display at a Black History Month event, where he seemed to not even know who Frederick Douglass was. Yes, WAS, he's not still alive!! Ugh!!!! 

Give him a chance? You "give him a chance" people are nucking futz. We're barely 2 weeks in and he has already appointed an oil king with ties to Russia as Secretary of State, has a climate change denier in line to head the Environmental Protection Agency, a woman who is barely qualified to be a substitute teacher in line to be Secretary of Education, has undone the DAP ban, executive ordered the wall, a muslim ban, and that non profits don't have to stay out of politics, has the National Parks Service going rogue - yes, park rangers who are as involved in politics as you can get! There is so much more, I can't even keep up. 

Give him a chance? Might as well give a monkey a loaded machine gun and stand there while he figures it out.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Are they covering his fiasco at the National Prayer Breakfast on that side of the pond?
> 
> .


 Awful !

The 6pm news is starting in a minute so I will see if its mentioned .


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)




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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> Awful !
> 
> The 6pm news is starting in a minute so I will see if its mentioned .


 The news was mainly about the EU meeting with in Malta .
They did mention Trumps comments about the Iran nuclear deal, though .

He's making so many faux pas that it would need a whole news programme to cover them.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> He's making so many faux pas that it would need a whole news programme to cover them.


Or News 24!

And there's a random thought, maybe it's time to retire the phrase "Gordon Bennett!" and replace it with "Donald Trump!"

I mean, all Gordon did was turn up late and drunk to a party at his fiance's family home and widdle into a fireplace...


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Jesthar :Hilarious


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