# Feeding 3 week old pups



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Hello, some of you might remember by girl having pups - 3 weeks 2 days ago now. They are fantastic huge bundles! I should have known things wouldn't go according to plan with this litter. Mum is refusing to let pups feed, and has been like this for about 5 days now. I have been pretty much having to sit by the box and make sure she lies down, and stays put, while the pups feed. I have to order her to do this. If left alone, she goes into the pups, and walks around and around while the poor pups frantically try to latch on to the moving milk bar above their heads. If she does lie down, she's up again in 30 seconds, dragging latched on pups behind her, and then jumps out of the box. 

I've started the pups on goats milk and they lap it up like mad! yesterday I gave some ground up chicken breast which they gobbled up like mad. (Im raw feeding mum and weaning on to raw food too) Today I gave some lightly scrambled egg in goats milk for breakfast which was at 8am and mum has nursed them for about 3 minutes since under my supervision. It's now 11.30am.

I need some advice though - how often should I be feeding some solid food at this point? Should I also be giving them 'drinks' ie. goats milk or just water? Should I just take over completely from mum now? Can anyone help with tips or ideas or things to look out for. I don't want to give them too much, or too little. 
thanks everyone for helping. 

J


----------



## lucylou432 (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm not experienced enough to advise re feeding your pups hun but it occurred to me that mum may have some difficulty feeding them. Have you had her checked out for mastitis or a possible fungal infection on her teats?


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I would think that ringing the vet for advice would be a good idea. Did you not do any research before the puppies were born so you had some of the knowledge required to raise a litter? Don't think it's something that you can guess at.

Hope someone with sound knowledge can offer you some advice very soon.


----------



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> I would think that ringing the vet for advice would be a good idea. Did you not do any research before the puppies were born so you had some of the knowledge required to raise a litter? Don't think it's something that you can guess at.
> 
> Hope someone with sound knowledge can offer you some advice very soon.


Yes, I have read everything ever written. And more besides. And use this forum for ADVICE and also support that what I'm doing is right. Because people on here are usually very helpful in offering advice based on their years of experience, which is why they join a forum. Isn't it? Have you anything constructive to say?

I have checked her teats for heat, swelling, hardness, lumps, they're fine. I've clipped the pups nails. Her temperature is normal. Mum has never been very maternal. That's just the way it goes sometimes.

I've also read loads about weaning early, and it's not that uncommon given this situation. Apparently it's quite common for mums to want to stop nursing around this time, as these pups have very big teeth and it's quite painful. I am in touch with a few breeders by email also, from other forums, who offer helpful advice.

I have several options. 1. bottle feed, to supplement mums milk. I could use a proprietary puppy milk, or goats milk, or evaporated milk, or a special mixture with egg yolk and goats milk etc. etc. 2. I can start on something like scrambled egg with milk, and keep offering soft mushy foods. 3. some raw feeders start with ground meats. Should I start this early? if so, how many times a day....

So, if anyone has been through this, can they tell me what they did and how it worked? I don't think that's guessing, do you?

Jeez.:rolleyes5:


----------



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

lucylou432 said:


> I'm not experienced enough to advise re feeding your pups hun but it occurred to me that mum may have some difficulty feeding them. Have you had her checked out for mastitis or a possible fungal infection on her teats?


I'm popping her to the vets later today to check that everythings OK. Will come back later! 

cheers.
Scarlettsmum


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I obviously completely misunderstood your original post. 

Glad you are taking the dog to the vet


----------



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Just given her a bit of a bathe prior to going to the vets and there is actually a very small lump the size of a pea on one side on one milk sac. Don't know whether it's just appeared or I missed it yesterday. It's very small. Would definitely be going to vets anyway having found that. Will post results later. 

J


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

It's a bit early for a mum to be reluctant to feed them, but as you've clipped the pup's nails, it's unlikely to be that, could be that she's just not a good mum.
Is mum producing plenty of milk? How much are you feeding her and how many pups are there?


----------



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

Hello. Just got back from the vet, who thought her undersides looked a little inflamed in general. She wasn't worried about the little lump, but gave her an anti-inflammatory shot and some antibiotics 'just in case'.She confirmed her temperature is normal. So got it all covered.(It's funny when I had horses we used to joke about the vets - every single time you called them out, they'd prescribe anti inflammatory shots and antibiotics, no matter what it was. I think it's a 'covers everything' strategy. Seems it's the same with dogs ). I think a few days off the pups will help anyway and we'll see what happens then as to whether she lets them feed or not. Thanks to those who suggested it might be more than just 'not a good mum'. 

Oh and the vet suggested painting the ends of the clipped nails with nail varnish to cover the sharp ends. Good tip! Now what colour shall I use? Good job they're all girls I've only got pink and red 

rocco33 - she has three pups and tons of milk, and she's actually gained weight since having them, so I guess she must be getting enough to eat. She looks wonderful actually. I follow Tom Lonsdale's Raw Meaty Bones diet for her and will also do so for the pups. 

So, I shall feed a replacement milk formula which I've read about using goats milk, yoghurt, egg yolk and a bit of glucose powder, and just carry on with that every fours hours, or as the pups are hungry. Vet is in agreement with that. And hope mum starts feeding them again soon. 

Scarlettsmum


----------



## bluegirl (May 7, 2012)

You can start weaning at 3 wks. I feed a raw diet so I can only tell you what I do. 

If you have puppy milk start with that, if not I just go straight to goats milk. My first meal is just a dish of warmed goats milk or cooled puppy milk this is presented to the pups and it gets them used to lapping. Be aware this a messy time when pups are weaning. I usually do a day or two with just milk, I also start to offer a low dish of water too.
After a day or two I offer the same milk but with crushed oats and barley in it, its more like a semolena mix. So probably in the first week following the start of the weaning all I offer is milk for one of two meals and porridge mix for one or two meals. It doesn't take them long to get going but I never offer solids until they are good at lapping.
After that I start to offer raw meat as one meal. I have cockers so first meal is only a teaspoonful. After a few more days I'll add a second meat meal and once they get used to that routine I'll start to add more meats, offal and crushed bones into the mix.
At the end of the weaning process they are on 4 meals a day. Milk meal in morning, porridge at dinner, meat meal at 4pm and meat meal at 8pm.
Hope that helps a bit, even if you don't fed raw it should give you ideas.


----------



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

bluegirl You are a star! That is exactly the kind of detail I have been missing in all of the information I've read. I am feeding raw, so it's perfect. Hopefully mum will start feeding again, but if she doesn't I know how to start, with gradual introduction of the different foods etc. Mine do lap expertly already. Brilliant. thank you so much. Feel much better now.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Scarlettsmum said:


> Hello, some of you might remember by girl having pups - 3 weeks 2 days ago now. They are fantastic huge bundles! I should have known things wouldn't go according to plan with this litter. Mum is refusing to let pups feed, and has been like this for about 5 days now. I have been pretty much having to sit by the box and make sure she lies down, and stays put, while the pups feed. I have to order her to do this. If left alone, she goes into the pups, and walks around and around while the poor pups frantically try to latch on to the moving milk bar above their heads. If she does lie down, she's up again in 30 seconds, dragging latched on pups behind her, and then jumps out of the box.
> 
> I've started the pups on goats milk and they lap it up like mad! yesterday I gave some ground up chicken breast which they gobbled up like mad. (Im raw feeding mum and weaning on to raw food too) Today I gave some lightly scrambled egg in goats milk for breakfast which was at 8am and mum has nursed them for about 3 minutes since under my supervision. It's now 11.30am.
> 
> ...


You can get her checked out by the vet to ensure there is no infection there - but my first guess would be - the puppies have got their teeth - and mum doesn't want any of it - and TBH - you can't really blame her.

My last litter - the pups were trying to get at mums food at 2 weeks old - so I started weaning them with mushed up puppy food and Lactol - good job I did - because the first sight of those teeth - mum was off.

She would drop food she was given into the whelping box and be out of there faster than the speed of light before they could get at her.

Also, have you been cutting the pups nails regularly? a combination of long nails and teeth could cut poor mums tums to shreds. Some bitches will carry on regardless - others won't.

At this age - If she is point blank refusing to feed them at all - then possibly 6 or 7 smaller meals a day working down to 5 by around 6 weeks and 4 by 8 weeks.

Are you confident the new owners are going to continue with raw feeding - and that they are going to be capable of delivering a diet sufficiently balanced in protein and calcium not to accelerate their growth - potentially resulting in joint problems.

A lot of the people I know feeding raw - also wean using puppy food - I've always been of the view that if dogs are not exposed to grains early on - doing so later could potentially provoke sensitivities and allergies if the owners switch to commercial foods later on.

------------------

The above are NOT criticisms - merely observations - partly based on personal experience and partly on what I know quite a large number of breeders feeding raw generally wean their pups.

----------------------------------

It would be good if you can get mum to "top them up" for now as generally tends to happen once they start weaning - but if she really doesn't want to - then she will become cleverer at finding ways to side-step getting into the whelping box.

Forcing her to do it for any length of time, will unquestionably make life more stressful for you, her and potentially the pups.


----------



## wee man (Apr 8, 2012)

If your puppies are looking well and full I would not worry too much, at this stage mum does not want to stay with her puppies 24/7 but she can still do her job very well. It is quiet normal for her to just visit for a quick feed check all is well and clean up and then quickly get out. A bitch can "turn the taps on" pretty quickly and the puppies can fill up fast, but she may not always want to stay and cuddle them. You may not even notice the job has been done ! 
I note that mum has recently been checked by your vet and all is ok, Phew thats good !

At 3 + weeks of age your puppies are well ready to start eating some solid food, and the best in my mind is raw mince (as you are already doing ). It is now your responsibility to start providing these puppies with some good quality solid food in preparation for their lives ahead. Sloppy milky feeds are not always needed as they will still be getting a supply from mum and I am sure they know how to eat their minced chicken by now!
You have to look at this from a natural point of view, no mother can bring along a bowl of sloppy food but she will sick up some partly digested meat or solids for them. (all part of the natural process).
Leave the puppies a shallow bowl of water and you can offer 4 small feeds daily, increase amount as the pups grow, but cut back on the milky/sloppy feeds as soon as possible.
By the time your puppies are 8 weeks of age they should be on 4 quality solid feeds per day and totally independant of mum.
Have fun weaning your puppies onto solids, this is where your hard work now starts.

I am sure mum is doing a grand job but you don't always notice it happening.


----------



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

swarthy said:


> You can get her checked out by the vet to ensure there is no infection there - but my first guess would be - the puppies have got their teeth - and mum doesn't want any of it - and TBH - you can't really blame her.
> That was my first thought too, hence the questions about feeding the pups myself. But I have to say her tum does look less pink today, so perhaps there was some infection, definitely some inflammation, and she did give the pups something this morning. Hurray!
> My last litter - the pups were trying to get at mums food at 2 weeks old - so I started weaning them with mushed up puppy food and Lactol - good job I did - because the first sight of those teeth - mum was off.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input.


----------



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

wee man said:


> If your puppies are looking well and full I would not worry too much, at this stage mum does not want to stay with her puppies 24/7 but she can still do her job very well. It is quiet normal for her to just visit for a quick feed check all is well and clean up and then quickly get out. A bitch can "turn the taps on" pretty quickly and the puppies can fill up fast, but she may not always want to stay and cuddle them. You may not even notice the job has been done !
> I note that mum has recently been checked by your vet and all is ok, Phew thats good !
> 
> At 3 + weeks of age your puppies are well ready to start eating some solid food, and the best in my mind is raw mince (as you are already doing ). It is now your responsibility to start providing these puppies with some good quality solid food in preparation for their lives ahead. Sloppy milky feeds are not always needed as they will still be getting a supply from mum and I am sure they know how to eat their minced chicken by now!
> ...


A few days ago mum picked up her toy slipper and dropped it into the pen. Then a few hours later she dropped her ball in with the pups too. She got very excited and danced around outside the pen. I wonder if this was her feeding instinct kicking in, and what she really wanted to do was bring them food, but she didn't get it quite right. I don't think she was really expecting them to get up and play! I have heard of raw fed mums bringing their pups a bit of their meaty bones as well as vomiting up their dinner.

She's definitely not very maternal, as even at the start when she was feeding well, she wouldn't stay with them after they fell asleep.

Ready for the 'fun' to start.


----------



## bluegirl (May 7, 2012)

Yes one of my raw fed girls used to regurgitate meals for the pups. Some of the chunks were quite big though so I used to have to pick up the "vomit" before the pups got a whiff and cut it up smaller with some scissors, it also allowed me to check the size of the bone splinters.

Not all will regurgitate though, and for my other bitch who didn't, I used to get things like chicken wings and thighs, put them in a plastic bag and hit them with a hammer until all the bone was broken into very tiny pieces and then separate the meal into small portions for each pup. 

As the pups grow they can eat whole wings and thighs on their own but I continue to bash the bones because as young pups they don't digest the bones as older dogs do and as they really do eat with gusto they would swallow them whole if unchecked. Trick was to hold flappy end of a wing firmly with a pair of pliars and only let go when they had eaten most of it.

Feeding raw to young pups reminds me of a pirahna feeding frenzy.


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i don't feed raw to puppies as most pet owners won't go down that route. how many of you do?

to OP i start feeding my pups a sloppy mix of scrambled egg and goats milk between 17-21 days.


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

i havent read the whole thread so i dont know if this has been posted but this is a great read. Raw weaning litter diary - The Dog's Dinner - by Ann Ridyard


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

I'm just reading this in fascination and since instructions have been provided I just wanted to comment - off topic.

I've helped raise five spaniel litters - and every mom nursed the pups well past 10 weeks of age and without even a hint at diminishing their time with the pups before 8 weeks. If pups were kept back you could find them suckling on occasion even to 14-15 weeks - - - and dams that would sidle up beside them and offer at that age! The Cavaliers were especially soft to their youngsters, even moreso than the Cockers.

I had noticed this was different than my Mom's Collie litters and my friend Terrier litters where the dams started naturally weaning at 4-5 weeks in.

I imagine this is because Spaniels are 'soft mouthed' compared to other types (maybe). I can't think of any other reason.

CC


----------



## bluegirl (May 7, 2012)

dexter said:


> i don't feed raw to puppies as most pet owners won't go down that route. how many of you do?
> 
> to OP i start feeding my pups a sloppy mix of scrambled egg and goats milk between 17-21 days.


I considered this dilemma long and hard and decided that although most pet owners would not go down the raw diet route, my responsibility as a breeder was also to provide a diet that I believed would be most beneficial to maintaining good health. I believe in raw feeding, I raised my dogs on raw, I raw feed through pregnancy because I believe it is the best, so why fail my pups by weaning them onto a commercial food? I decided I would do my best as I saw fit for the pups, and the new owners if they so chose, could feed their pup as they saw fit after they left me.

I pre warned every potential owner that I would be weaning to raw without exception. I provided each of them with the book I use, with all the cereals, herbs, coconut, bran, wheatgerm, oils,seeds etc they would need to continue with the breakfast for at least 8 wks and I provided individual portion sized bagged meat meals including bones to last for 5 days plus personal written diet sheets and provided my telephone number so they could ring anytime for further help and advice. Each puppy pack probably sets me back £20. Most breeders I know just send the pups off with the free puppy samples from the manufacturers.


----------



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

That diary is really really useful, so thanks! A good read like you say. My pups are GSDs too so totally relevant. 

The other day when mum wouldn't feed them I gave scrambled egg in goats milk too. It went down a treat. I am very pleased to report that mum has started feeding them more now, so i can relax a bit about weaning early. I'm just 'topping up' with one little meal of minced chicken a day. They wolf it down. Feeding frenzy is right!

I think there's very little possibility of my new owners feeding raw. But I'm torn. Instinct tells me to wean to raw because it's just so natural and when you see the little 3.5 week old carnivores holding down their chicken carcasses with their paws and tearing into it with their sharp teeth, it's hard to imagine feeding them anything else. They just know what to do. I don't want to deny them that natural behaviour, which is also extremely good for their development, physically and mentally. 

I still haven't decided! I've ordered a bag of high quality kibble, Orijen, which is grain free, just in case. And I've got a French and Italian copy of Tom Lonsdales Raw Meaty Bones on pdf to send out, in the hope that it will convince people to feed raw. So, should I start raw and hope they stay on it, or start kibble and try to persuade them to switch. Argh. Indecision indecision..I've got to make my mind up pretty soon!

Bluegirl - just seen your post, it must have crossed with mine. I think I must go with my conscience and instincts, for exactly the reasons you state. It's best for the pups, and while they're with me I will do what's best for them. OK, done.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

bluegirl said:


> I considered this dilemma long and hard and decided that although most pet owners would not go down the raw diet route, my responsibility as a breeder was also to provide a diet that I believed would be most beneficial to maintaining good health. I believe in raw feeding, I raised my dogs on raw, I raw feed through pregnancy because I believe it is the best, so why fail my pups by weaning them onto a commercial food? I decided I would do my best as I saw fit for the pups, and the new owners if they so chose, could feed their pup as they saw fit after they left me.
> 
> I pre warned every potential owner that I would be weaning to raw without exception. I provided each of them with the book I use, with all the cereals, herbs, coconut, bran, wheatgerm, oils,seeds etc they would need to continue with the breakfast for at least 8 wks and I provided individual portion sized bagged meat meals including bones to last for 5 days plus personal written diet sheets and provided my telephone number so they could ring anytime for further help and advice. Each puppy pack probably sets me back £20. Most breeders I know just send the pups off with the free puppy samples from the manufacturers.


I agree. I give them enough for a couple of weeks and if they want to change after that, then it is their choice but they have enough to keep them on it and then change gradually.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Scarlettsmum said:


> Thanks for your input.


Aha - I didn't realise you were in France - I was going to suggest Simpsons Premium - they go a grain free range of foods and a puppy food salmon and potatoes All my dogs bar one are on their grain free foods - I did it originally because I have coeliac and handling their food was playing my hands up - but without question, short of going onto raw, which isn't really feasible for me - all I can say is good things about it - from the dogs condition to the amount of waste we get which has dropped dramatically since the switch.

I am helping out with a friends litter atm - and the pups are going nuts for the Simpsons puppy salmon and potato all mushed up (I don't like salmon and it smells vile - but the pups are going mad for it - they aren't three weeks yet).

But Simpsons now also do their own meat / veg and fish /veg 80/20 - which isn't cheap - but would most certainly be cheaper on their breeder scheme than Orijen - the principle is the same as Orijen and similar foods.

Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware - they don't deliver outside the UK - and if they did - chances are the delivery costs would outweigh any financial benefits of using them.

Hope mum is OK - I would be leaning towards teeth and maybe a little bit of a break has made mums tum less sore- but if you do think there is any type of infection there, it might be worth checking her over at the vets for early signs of mastitis which can make them quite ill and be really painful - if mum continues to feed - it is usually fine to allow them to feed through both the mastitis and the antibiotics.

Good luck - I will be interested to hear which way you do eventually go with the food and what feedback you get (if any) from owners switching over to more commercially available foods (I know the majority of pet only owners would rather get their food from a physical shop rather than having to rely on delivery systems but of course it may be completely different in France.


----------



## Scarlettsmum (Jul 5, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Aha - I didn't realise you were in France - I was going to suggest Simpsons Premium - they go a grain free range of foods and a puppy food salmon and potatoes All my dogs bar one are on their grain free foods - I did it originally because I have coeliac and handling their food was playing my hands up - but without question, short of going onto raw, which isn't really feasible for me - all I can say is good things about it - from the dogs condition to the amount of waste we get which has dropped dramatically since the switch.
> 
> I am helping out with a friends litter atm - and the pups are going nuts for the Simpsons puppy salmon and potato all mushed up (I don't like salmon and it smells vile - but the pups are going mad for it - they aren't three weeks yet).
> 
> ...


thanks for the info about simpsons, but I've just had a look and I can't get it here. There's only Zooplus who deliver all the 'special' foreign foods like Orijen and Arcana (both grain free), so not a lot of choice. Im lucky to get that!! And don't worry, I've taken her to the vet and she's already on antibiotics. So far, about 9 days after my concerns started, she's feeding quite happily but only about three times a day. Im giving the pups a meal and then asking mum to come in and top up with a drink. (I still have to ask her to do it!) So they aren't putting much strain on her and don't feed for too long. Seems to be working so far so that's what counts. Pups are now happy and gaining weight steadily.

I'll let you know what happens with owners if I can. One has shown an interest in reading the book, and another is very interested after commenting on what a wonderful coat mum has. The other is Italian, so that's an unknown quantity!


----------

