# Question for Siamese breeders



## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

Hey all,

I've got a question that is purely out of curiosity - the answers won't change anything in regards to how we care for, or feel towards our boy, Logi.

Out of interest, how does the Havana female affect the breed line, if bred with a Siamese male? Does it make the kittens any less of a Siamese? Do characteristics/temperament change?

I ask because Logi was born of a Havana female - who had 4 chocolate points and 1 Havana kitten (I seem to remember)

Although he was totally cream from birth, his points became darker as he grew, and now he's also becoming fairly brown in his body too*. We also feel that he's not your 'typical' Siamese, in the sense that all the other Siamese we've heard about, are nothing like Logi - he's jealous yes, but he's not what you would call the brightest spark. Obviously I know that every cat is different, but it does surprise me just how laid back and dim he is! (don't get me wrong - we love him for this! )

Do you think much of this comes from the mum? (especially the colouring bit)

I'm just curious!

*Thought pics might explain this better: -









Logi getting a darker body









A very bad pic of Logi's mum (didn't want to use a flash)


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm not a breeder but i dont think it would effect the colours.


Siamese colouring is a form of albinism which is heat sensitive. This means that the first area that colour shows is in their extremeties. 

Its perfectly normal for their body to get more shaded and darker in as they mature. So no need to worry!

Apparently if you live in a hot country their body will stay paler lol - although i have no idea if that is true or not.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Colourpointed cats that go outside or live in homes where it's cool do go darker. My seal tabby went very dark across the saddle of his back this winter because we don't use the heating much & it was obviously a cold winter! It isn't a fault at all.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Logi's colour looks fine to me and having Havana in his pedigree won't make any difference to how dark he goes.
Mai Tai is getting darker as she gets older and is darker in winter than summer, though not to a great degree as she spends 99% of her time indoors.
The mating with an oriental (like Havanas) doesn't alter the temperament either as oriental characteristics are not that dissimilar to Siamese.
Over the years I've had very bright ones and some rather dim ones too


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Apparently if you live in a hot country their body will stay paler lol - although i have no idea if that is true or not.


I heard this too, but wasn't sure how true it was. It's fairly warm in our house, but he does go outside so he could be cooling himself off and changing colour when we're not looking 
Out of interest again, if he moved to a hot country, would he then get lighter again, or is the colour 'set'?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lol i have no idea if the colour is fixed or not... i am guessing it would stay fairly fixed until the next moult!

If he has access to the outside, then he is likely to remain darker, than say an indoor cat who's owners have the heating on 24/7.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

lymorelynn said:


> The mating with an oriental (like Havanas) doesn't alter the temperament either as oriental characteristics are not that dissimilar to Siamese.
> Over the years I've had very bright ones and some rather dim ones too


Ah thanks for this! I did assume that they were so close anyway that it would make no difference, but it has surprised me as to how silly he is.

As an example, Logi's main bowl is on the left, and Lance's on the right. The other day the autofeeder went off (which is just one large dish for both) and Lance got there first and stood on the left. Because Logi couldn't fit in the gap, he 'couldn't' eat! (or didn't know how to) Out of frustration, he instead stood over the top of Lance (forming a sort of cat X shape) so that his head was on the left again and he 'could' then eat! I had to pick him up and move him..

And I thought Siamese were meant to be clever!
Lol


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Colour looks fine to me, my Siamese stud looks very simalar in terms of markings his saddle is going slightly more coffee coloured the older he gets.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

tellingtails said:


> Colour looks fine to me, my Siamese stud looks very simalar in terms of markings his saddle is going slightly more coffee coloured the older he gets.


I saw your pic somewhere before and the first thing I thought was 'Logi'!
They look very similar indeed!
I'm not worried about the colour - as I said it was more curiosity if it was to do with the Havana mum, or if it is just a Siamese thing anyway.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Not to put a spoke in the works (and maybe it's just the picture or my monitor), but Logi looks to be a definite Seal point to me, not Chocolate. Also, that would explain the body darkening: Chocolates are known for keeping their light bodies, Seals often go darker as they age. TLC, do you have any other pictures of him?

As far as the darkening and the Oriental mother, I'd would have said exactly the same things that have been said, so I won't repeat them.  

Mushu went horribly dark p not really horrible, just detrimental to his show career ) last winter when he was at the cattery and spent all his time outside watching the birds hop around in the snow. I came back and couldn't believe the difference 3 weeks made to his colouring. A year later, he's still considerably darker than he was before. In my experience, they don't really lighten all that much once they darken, although they might go slightly lighter in summer.

And the breed is no guarantee of smarts, either.  When I was a teenager we had a red-point who was not the brightest button on the shirt. A real love bug, the sweetest, cuddliest boy imaginable, but really not all that smart!


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

My male carrys havana in his bloodline, however he is virtually identical in character to my other Siamese that dont, except a little more impatient we have to feed him first or he goes in a huff:lol::lol:


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Have you looked at his roots? Are they the same colour?


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

Atlantys said:


> A real love bug, the sweetest, cuddliest boy imaginable, but really not all that smart!


 Yup! that's the same as Logi! I think I prefer it this way though, because we were initially worried that a super smart cat would set booby traps for Lance (generally just be a pain)

Here are some other pics, taken just before he started to get a really dark bum: -


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> Have you looked at his roots? Are they the same colour?


This is going to sound daft, but do you mean the actual roots of his hair? I first believed you meant for me to check his roots as in family history - we do have that info at home, given to us by the breeder. I never paid much attention to it because it was never that important, plus I didn't/don't understand the generation info. I'm thinking you do mean his hair though - but can never be too sure! (I'll have a look when I get home either way)


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

No, sorry, I meant his hairs.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> No, sorry, I meant his hairs.


 I will check when I get home!

Do you think he looks more like a seal point than chocolate?

I always thought the seals had a more grey colour in their fur. He def looks more brown to me - but then I'm used to him. It's interesting to hear what others see though.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

He looks like a dark chocolate to me. Seals are almost black rather than, well, chocolatey brown. I went through a phase of thinking my little seal tabby was a chocolate tabby but nah, just gets darker with age.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I was thinking dark choci to, he looks like a normal siamese me to me...sounds like one to haha 

My seal tortie girl has changed sooo much in the years we have had her, one min she is pale cream with her dark points then she has a dark saddle, she currently is a pale chocolate all over with her seal points.......its lovely to watch her change.

I dont think that colours matter with reguards to personality, with bengals, the seal lynx (blue eyed snow) is from the siamese gene, the seal mink (green eye) is from the burmese gene, and the speia (gold eye) is from a mix of both!!! 

Yet all the snows seem to act like a 'bengal' outgoing vocal and loopy :lol:


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

thelioncub said:


> I will check when I get home!
> 
> Do you think he looks more like a seal point than chocolate?
> 
> I always thought the seals had a more grey colour in their fur. He def looks more brown to me - but then I'm used to him. It's interesting to hear what others see though.


No, Seal points aren't grey. They're a very dark brown, and can be almost black at the very tips of their points.

Of course, there is the possibility that Logi is a dark chocolate (he definitely looked more like a chocolate when he was young, if that's his kitten pic in your banner?), and you can make sure of this by doing one of two things: knowing his dad's colour, or looking at his nose and his toes! 

To quote the CFA:


> Check the nose leather and paw pads. A chocolate point has cinnamon pink, the seal point has sealbrown.


When you get home and check his fur, check his nose and toes too. I'm very curious to find out what he is, now.


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Hahaha how amusing that I am watching QI and stephen fry just asked what happens when you put a Siamese in the fridge? And the answer is that it will turn brown/black all over. And then when you heat it up again it will return to normal! :lol:


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

they go shaded. its normal


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm not too sure about siamese, I have Ragdolls. Ragdolls coats don't tend to "set" until they're about 2. My neuter has been fairly shaded since kittenhood, my queen was very pale until a few months ago but she's gradually been darkening as the weathers become colder.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Chez87 said:


> Hahaha how amusing that I am watching QI and stephen fry just asked what happens when you put a Siamese in the fridge? And the answer is that it will turn brown/black all over. And then when you heat it up again it will return to normal! :lol:


:lol::lol: What happens if you put a Siamese in the fridge? It eats all the food


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

Sorry for delay with answers! I wanted to take a picture but the boys were being wriggly at the times we were home.

Anyway.. Logi's fur is the lighter beige colour at the roots. His feet look more of a pinky brown to me, but no way near as pink as Lance's.

I'm putting up a picture of both, as I've always found Lance's feet to be really cute: -










Chocolate-point do you reckon?


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I'd say so!!


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Yes, I agree.  

According to his toes (and both sets of toes are super-cute, by the way ) he's definitely a dark Chocolate point.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

I've just dug up Logi's pedigree certificate, and it says that he's been registered with the GCCF as a chocolate point (24b) - whatever the 24b means?!

Sire was a seal point (24)
Dam a Havana (29)

Can anyone translate the numbers for me? 

The certificate goes right back to the great, great grandparents, and I can see that the sire's mum and grandfather were chocolate points, whereas the sire's father and grandfather were both seals. Very confusing if you ask me!

Also.. some of the names are in red - I never thought to ask the breeder what that meant. Is it something obvious that all breeders do? I thought it might be the ones which the breeders had in their homes, only the mum isn't in red and I know that she was definitely one of theirs.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Each colour for each breed has it's own number. It doesn't really affect anything unless you breed or show, to be honest, as it is for paperwork. Like my boy is a seal tabby point Birman so is a "13c11". Much shorter than typing & writing out "seal tabby point Birman" everywhere!

If some names are in red, do they have "CH" or even "GR CH" before their names? Sounds like your cat's got a pedigree with some show winners in it.  Pedigrees are often written with names in red to emphasise those who have show titles.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> If some names are in red, do they have "CH" or even "GR CH" before their names? Sounds like your cat's got a pedigree with some show winners in it.  Pedigrees are often written with names in red to emphasise those who have show titles.


Ah-ha! Yes.. that's it! Thank you.

There are a few reds in the sire line from the great grandparents up, but loads of reds in the dame - including both grandparents, 3 out of 4 great grandparents, and all but 2 in the great, great grandparents.

It's about half and half between GR CH and CH throughout all the family.

Mind you.. I don't think any show-winning qualities in the blood line ever made it down to Logi! hehe.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

You never know...


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> You never know...


Um.. If they have a 'special' show for 'special' boys, then Logi would win paws down!

You see, he has a weird hollow nose where one side has none of the usual 'stuff' in it. The X-ray's we saw were fantastic! Very odd indeed. As a consequence, he suffers terribly from a snotty face and very bad breath (due to the junk running down the back of his throat because it's not being sorted by the nose)

That with his darkening hind, little tubby belly from someone down the street feeding him dog biscuits, and his habit of standing with one paw in the air like its lame.. well.. I'm not sure he'd win any prizes. Ah.. but we love him. Such a strange little cardboard chewer he is.


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