# Idiots @ [email protected]



## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

THEY WERE GIVING THE BEARDED DRAGOND CABBAGE!!!! CABBAGE IS PIOSONOUS!! AS IS ICEBERG LETTUICE (ALSO BEING GIVEN) FOR GOD'S SAKE DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE GETTING THINGS LIKE THAT IN STOCK! i'm ten years old and know more than those idiots!


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## doogpoh (Jan 8, 2010)

I know how you feel, they know nothing in that place, my oh sister used to work there and she thinks shes an expert on all animals :lol: yeah right expert on the fastest way to kill your pet more like


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## loops25 (Apr 6, 2010)

They know nothing about fish either, I am always cringing at what I hear them telling people "leave the tank a few days before adding fish and buy some ammolock!, then you can add them" 
I wish I could warn everyone about how to care for fish


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2010)

serpentseye said:


> THEY WERE GIVING THE BEARDED DRAGOND CABBAGE!!!! CABBAGE IS PIOSONOUS!! AS IS ICEBERG LETTUICE (ALSO BEING GIVEN) FOR GOD'S SAKE DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE GETTING THINGS LIKE THAT IN STOCK! i'm ten years old and know more than those idiots!


i give my dragon cabbage he loves it he is 3 years old never thought it was bad for them


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## doogpoh (Jan 8, 2010)

They are awful they really are, my oh sister brought a beardy about a year ago now and after having it set up for a while i asked why it didn't have a uv light only to be told they didn't need one  the next time we went round surprise surprise she had one, must have done some proper research, shows how much good working there does for you. i don't think they should sell live stock at all  or at least train there staff properly


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## doogpoh (Jan 8, 2010)

borderer said:


> i give my dragon cabbage he loves it he is 3 years old never thought it was bad for them


I think it gives them wind and lizards can't fart  so not to good for there tummies


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## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

loops25 said:


> They know nothing about fish either, I am always cringing at what I hear them telling people "leave the tank a few days before adding fish and buy some ammolock!, then you can add them"
> I wish I could warn everyone about how to care for fish


one near me 9 out of 10 times there fish tanks allways have dead fish in them or u see the ones that have whitespot ect ....



doogpoh said:


> They are awful they really are, my oh sister brought a beardy about a year ago now and after having it set up for a while i asked why it didn't have a uv light only to be told they didn't need one  the next time we went round surprise surprise she had one, must have done some proper research, shows how much good working there does for you. i don't think they should sell live stock at all  or at least train there staff properly


this is the difference between petshops and pets at home .... petshops ( the goodones have the training and do not sell animals like reptiles without the right set up )


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2010)

I visit my local [email protected] on a fairly regular basis, not to buy anything (I get my dog food from the vet and my fishkeeping equipment online or from North Lakes aquatics), but out of curiosity. 

My local store has just started to stock reptiles, of course it's fairly typical: young, emaciated Leopard geckos being kept on sand and bullsh!t (excuse me) recommendations from the staff.

I've sent countless anonymous e-mails of complaint to their customer services, and have received the same crappy responses from some business graduate in their marketing department claiming that animal welfare is of 'the utmost importance'.


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

borderer said:


> i give my dragon cabbage he loves it he is 3 years old never thought it was bad for them


please stop you can't give them brassicas, it sucks out the calcium in them 
give him rocket and corriander, mine love grated carrot 
give him lots and lots of calcium and full UV exposure - post a pic to me please, he might have MBD.it's ok you didn't know, as long as he has a UV bulb and extra calcium powder he should be fine but please PM me a pic so i can see if he has MBD. he should be ok but just in case.


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

SerpentsEye.... where are you getting your information from that cabbage is poisionous???

In the years I have kept reptiles, I have never heard that.

In fact, the staple veg of a beardies diet should be spring greens - which is essentially cabbage - because of the high calcium levels.

Spinach is what binds calcium.

And borderer, please don't worry about yours. No need to post any photo's.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

MissG said:


> SerpentsEye.... where are you getting your information from that cabbage is poisionous???
> 
> In the years I have kept reptiles, I have never heard that.
> 
> ...


sooooooooooo cabbage is ok?


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

RockRomantic said:


> sooooooooooo cabbage is ok?


Absolutely.


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

the last forum i had an argument on i was banned from shortly afterwards, so my reply is that cabbage is not alright and i am suprised that missg's beardie has not died, and can a moderator please delete this thread? i do not wish to get banned again.


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

serpentseye said:


> the last forum i had an argument on i was banned from shortly afterwards, so my reply is that cabbage is not alright and i am suprised that missg's beardie has not died, and can a moderator please delete this thread? i do not wish to get banned again.


Why on earth would you get banned from saying that?!? Was it RFUK?

I can not find any information on any website that says that cabbage shouldn't be fed. And that's why I asked where you found that information out.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2010)

serpentseye said:


> the last forum i had an argument on i was banned from shortly afterwards, so my reply is that cabbage is not alright and i am suprised that missg's beardie has not died, and can a moderator please delete this thread? i do not wish to get banned again.


There is absolutely no reason as to why this thread should be deleted or closed, you are simply expressing your opinion which you are entitled to in a healthy debate, you certainly won't receive a ban for expressing your opinion. 

I am no 'expert' on reptiles (I don't like the term 'expert', it conjures up all sorts of wild notions) however I will add my two-cents. A few sources indicate that cabbage contains oxalates (usually disodium oxalate or dimethyl oxalate), which can lower calcium absorption, however some suggest that the risk of problems arising from this are minimal so long as the animal is healthy and receives a sufficient calcium intake and a sufficient vitamin D3 intake from exposure to UVB rays.

Please note, that the above does not reflect my opinion on the matter, as I have never kept Bearded Dragons and therefore I have no experience with these animals, however it does provide food for thought.


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

Green cabbage is not a good food for a bearded dragon to eat as it can cause problems with their thyroid. Its important to get her eating other greens.

As part of a varied diet, Green Cabbage is OK for a Beardy, but if you feed the cabbage to the dragon all the time, itll get Diarrhea and die. So, yes, its OK to feed your Dragon, but only with a varied diet. Figured I'd share that little bit of info.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

serpentseye said:


> the last forum i had an argument on i was banned from shortly afterwards, so my reply is that cabbage is not alright and i am suprised that missg's beardie has not died, and can a moderator please delete this thread? i do not wish to get banned again.


You wont get banned for having an opinion


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

sorry, it was RFUK.i got the info from a breeder (she had to be closed down due to financial probs, because lizards were not popular in her area. that's why MissG couldn't find anything) she had fed cabbage to her first beardie, and she was warning everyone not to because unfourtunately her beardie died - the cabbace sucked out his calcium and he got MBD. the vet confirmed that it was the cabbage and advised people not to feed. my reptile shop said this also. (bites n strikes, welling)


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2010)

serpentseye said:


> sorry, it was RFUK.i got the info from a breeder (she had to be closed down due to financial probs, because lizards were not popular in her area. that's why MissG couldn't find anything) she had fed cabbage to her first beardie, and she was warning everyone not to because unfourtunately her beardie died - the cabbace sucked out his calcium and he got MBD. the vet confirmed that it was the cabbage and advised people not to feed. my reptile shop said this also. (bites n strikes, welling)


By the sound of things, it's quite possible that there was another factor that caused the death, such as inadequate environmental conditions, incorrect calcium supplementation or insufficient UV exposure (which would explain the MBD, as vitamin D3 produced from the UVB rays is required for the absorption of calcium).


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

there was a uv bulb in the setup, and she did use calcium powder every feed, that's what she says anyway, and the vet.


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## Fishyfins (Feb 28, 2009)

Pets at Home know nothing. i worked there for nearly 3 years. ive always kept fish and reptiles, and so know quite a lot about them (at least id like to think so). at our store, we went against their rules slightly to try and make life better for the reptiles, and get customers onto the right track, but head office clamped down hard on us. 
best of all, when i complained that the reptiles (especially the tortoises) wernt being cared for properly, and being kept in unsuitable vivariums.... they fired me.

way to go Pets at Home, you just keep getting better


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

Fishyfins said:


> Pets at Home know nothing. i worked there for nearly 3 years. ive always kept fish and reptiles, and so know quite a lot about them (at least id like to think so). at our store, we went against their rules slightly to try and make life better for the reptiles, and get customers onto the right track, but head office clamped down hard on us.
> best of all, when i complained that the reptiles (especially the tortoises) wernt being cared for properly, and being kept in unsuitable vivariums.... they fired me.
> 
> way to go Pets at Home, you just keep getting better


let's ALL complain to the RSPCA about them - if they get loads and loads of complaints they might do somthing.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2010)

I worked there to for a year, they don't know alot about fish let alone reptiles. They are all blank!! They just are there and work they don't know nothing about those poor pets  I went in there the other day and one of the bearded dragons glass doors were half open!!! :O:O:O:O:O x


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

in my one the beardie cages are really tall, not much floor space at all, too unnatural, they are desert dwellers!!! and now my one is getting in poor little crested geckos!!!


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## kelseye (Aug 16, 2009)

i agree the store by us got closed down and was not allowed to sell many animals i think we should help put a stop towards it im in for phoning the rspca :thumbup:


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## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

Pleccy said:


> I visit my local [email protected] on a fairly regular basis, not to buy anything (I get my dog food from the vet and my fishkeeping equipment online or from North Lakes aquatics), but out of curiosity.
> 
> My local store has just started to stock reptiles, of course it's fairly typical: young, emaciated* Leopard geckos being kept on sand *and bullsh!t (excuse me) recommendations from the staff.
> 
> I've sent countless anonymous e-mails of complaint to their customer services, and have received the same crappy responses from some business graduate in their marketing department claiming that animal welfare is of 'the utmost importance'.


what kind of sand was it ? the same you use for birds or proper reptile sand ?


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2010)

smudge2009 said:


> what kind of sand was it ? the same you use for birds or proper reptile sand ?


Good old calcium sand, complete with commendations on the stuff from [email protected] employees... 

What I do find to be rather amusing, is that a large number of [email protected] employees who are put in charge of looking after these animals have absolutely zilcho experience prior to getting the job. [email protected] simply ships them off on a mediocre training course, effectively turning them into self-proclaimed 'experts' in a matter of weeks. Most of them couldn't boil an egg, let alone look after a hamster or goldfish.


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## Fishyfins (Feb 28, 2009)

Pleccy said:


> Good old calcium sand, complete with commendations on the stuff from [email protected] employees...
> 
> What I do find to be rather amusing, is that a large number of [email protected] employees who are put in charge of looking after these animals have absolutely zilcho experience prior to getting the job. [email protected] simply ships them off on a mediocre training course, effectively turning them into self-proclaimed 'experts' in a matter of weeks. Most of them couldn't boil an egg, let alone look after a hamster or goldfish.


Problem is, people who do genuinly know stuff dont apply for work there usually. if they do, then they are hired, but 99% of applicants have no knowledge of animals besides maybe a childhood pet. they cant hire what doesnt apply 

however, that doesnt excuse the fact that their training is absolutely shockingly bad. i was lucky in the i already knew the truth about it all, and wasnt taken in by it all, i still had to sit it out though, which wasnt so nice. they really need to start training people better!


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

I dont think you can blame the staff working at PAH its a job they have been given by the company and they need a wage like us all.
Its the the men at the top that are in the wrong here....not training there staff adequately for the job.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2010)

Fishyfins said:


> genuinly know stuff dont apply for work there


Nobody with a sane mind and who does know what they're doing wouldn't apply. One thing's for certain, I'd rather work in a dump...


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

I would really really love to see them go down. I've been sending emails to them, they've been sending me their BS back about how they'd go into a full investigation, I've pestered them twice about it since October and haven't heard anything since. There's something seriously dodgy going on in the top ranks and they don't want us to know - I know that the store staff majority are idiots, but sometimes a caring staff member will admit it's just the 'rules and regs' they have to follow as standard, even if they're wrong.


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## clg86 (Apr 20, 2010)

Is it true that they have some pets stored away in the back somewhere ready to bring out when the others on the shop floor sell? Or is that just a rumour to put people off buying pets from there?:scared:

My friend bought 4 fish off them and they all died within a week. She did everything they told her to do but I'm not sure whether the fish were compatable??? 

I've never bought a pet from them but sounds like I should stay away!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

clg86 said:


> Is it true that they have some pets stored away in the back somewhere ready to bring out when the others on the shop floor sell? Or is that just a rumour to put people off buying pets from there?:scared:


No its very true 

You will never ever see an understocked [email protected] They even return some unsold rodents to the mass/warehouse breeders they buy them from. They are either used as breeding stock, or mass euthanised, often for reptile food.


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

It is a shame that the staff have no idea.
I'll admit I bought a hamster from there last week, but I took one of the rejects so to speak. (White with red eyes) There were many of this colour left behind  
However, the member of staff that served me was very knowledgeable and is probably the only member of staff I like in my local store.

I buy my dog food and toys and most things from there too because all our other pet stores have closed down


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Most of the staff at PAH have no idea I've been told so many wrong things it's not even funny anymore. I had to stop someone buying a tiny cage for a syrian the other day on the staff's recommendation. It was barely big enough for a dwarf but apparently they don't need much room because they have the wheel


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

clg86 said:


> My friend bought 4 fish off them and they all died within a week. She did everything they told her to do but I'm not sure whether the fish were compatable???
> 
> I've never bought a pet from them but sounds like I should stay away!


My sister and I went in to P& H at Masfield last week and she looked at the fish as they had completely refurbished the tank set up since last week. Every tank had whitespot which is not surprising as they use a mass filtering system instead if filtering each tank seperately. So what one tank goes down with, the others get it too. However the fish were still on sale even though treatment would take at least 7 days......



Nicky10 said:


> Most of the staff at PAH have no idea I've been told so many wrong things it's not even funny anymore. I had to stop someone buying a tiny cage for a syrian the other day on the staff's recommendation. It was barely big enough for a dwarf but apparently they don't need much room because they have the wheel


The Mansfield P&H has no large hamster cages now, only smaller ones.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Mine has some of the bigger cages but most people don't bother. Rabbits apparently don't need exercise, much hay and toys are optional extras too.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

serpentseye said:


> THEY WERE GIVING THE BEARDED DRAGOND CABBAGE!!!! CABBAGE IS PIOSONOUS!! AS IS ICEBERG LETTUICE (ALSO BEING GIVEN) FOR GOD'S SAKE DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE GETTING THINGS LIKE THAT IN STOCK! i'm ten years old and know more than those idiots!


after readig what they did in the grooming palour at [email protected] nothing surprises me from that place any longer.....damn fools if you ask me....undertrained and lazy staff who blindly work through the day not knowing what they're doing....


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## clg86 (Apr 20, 2010)

It's crazy to think that a store as big as [email protected] don't have the right training procedures in place. :scared:

As somebody mentioned earlier, it's not really the staff's fault that they haven't been trained correctly, however, if I was working there, I would be questioning all the things I see wrong. It's upsetting to think of all those poor animals kept there until somebody saves them. :crying: 

If they need staff to sit on the tills or to stock up the shelves then fine, but don't hire ramdom people off the street who haven't a clue about the basic well being of animals and expect them to know what advice to give!

The only reason I would buy a pet from [email protected] is to save it from the danger of being couped up in the dark, cold warehouse until one of the lucky ones upfront got sold!


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2010)

clg86 said:


> As somebody mentioned earlier, it's not really the staff's fault that they haven't been trained correctly,


They are still partly to blame, as they should know well not to apply for a job which entails caring for live animals if they have no prior experience. They should be able to use their common sense, these are fully-grown adults, not five year-olds...


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Sadly, as my granny used to say, "There's nowt so uncommon as common sense!"

There are, unfortunately, a lot of not too bright folks around who won't think of acting on their own initiative.


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## Fishyfins (Feb 28, 2009)

clg86 said:


> if I was working there, I would be questioning all the things I see wrong.


Yeah, this is what i did.... and i was fired for it

problem is, you cant stand up to them, they just dont listen. all the staff at my store knew what was wrong, and complained about it, and they just didnt listen. everyone needs a job in this day and agem hence why i originally applied. but even if the staff do complain, nothing gets done, or, in my case, quite the reverse of what should be done.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Fishyfins said:


> but even if the staff do complain, nothing gets done, or, in my case, quite the reverse of what should be done.


That's typical though. Anyone with real knowledge in keeping small pets would end up shot down in flames - or fired as in your case.  What a shame for the animals. That is what always put me off applying for a job with them back when I could work. I knew it would all end in tears because I just cannot keep my mouth shut when I see things being done wrong where pets are concerned. They ought to put on their adverts for staff 'Knowledgable pet owners need not apply.'


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> That's typical though. Anyone with real knowledge in keeping small pets would end up shot down in flames - or fired as in your case.  What a shame for the animals. That is what always put me off applying for a job with them back when I could work. I knew it would all end in tears because I just cannot keep my mouth shut when I see things being done wrong where pets are concerned. They ought to put on their adverts for staff 'Knowledgable pet owners need not apply.'


The other sad thing is, the managers probably have business degrees, not formal qualifications in animal management. In this case, if you try to rant about something, it will be thrown right back in your face...


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## Jonansi (Nov 20, 2009)

I looked at 5 young rats that were for adoption in Pets at Home and all five had infected and/or broken fingers and tails, each rat had at least 3 fingers missing and infected stumps. It was gross and apparently the people working there hadn't noticed. I was told they couldnt sell them and they would be sent to another store to be seen by a vet, as the boy serving me picked each one up by it's tail and took it out the back!!! I said I wanted to know which store they'd be taken to cos I would adopt them once they'd seen the vet. They refused to tell me saying it wasn't company policy!!WTF!! I was so annoyed. I reckon they just killed them out the back. Pets at Home should have regular, unnanounced RSPCA inspections.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Jonansi said:


> I looked at 5 young rats that were for adoption in Pets at Home and all five had infected and/or broken fingers and tails, each rat had at least 3 fingers missing and infected stumps.


That tends to happen where there are wild or escaped rats - they bite the toes of the ones in the cage through the mesh when they climb up. So the breeder/supplier must have loose rats in their sheds... or wild ones, which is much more serious.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

serpentseye said:


> THEY WERE GIVING THE BEARDED DRAGOND CABBAGE!!!! CABBAGE IS PIOSONOUS!! AS IS ICEBERG LETTUICE (ALSO BEING GIVEN) FOR GOD'S SAKE DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE GETTING THINGS LIKE THAT IN STOCK! i'm ten years old and know more than those idiots!


I am in shock that you are only TEN :scared: you are very wise for your age  :thumbup: I am impressed with your caring heart towards animals at such a young age you are only one year older then my son


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

Doberma'am said:


> Green cabbage is not a good food for a bearded dragon to eat as it can cause problems with their thyroid. Its important to get her eating other greens.
> 
> As part of a varied diet, Green Cabbage is OK for a Beardy, but if you feed the cabbage to the dragon all the time, itll get Diarrhea and die. So, yes, its OK to feed your Dragon, but only with a varied diet. Figured I'd share that little bit of info.


they were feeding cabbage all the time, and when i stormed up and told them they said it was spinach to save their own skin

I think i can tell the difference between spinsch and cabbage! (it was the one at footscray.)


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## Pets pets pets (Mar 22, 2010)

the one where i live isn't so bad the only thing that is bad is that the tank of the one beardie im gonna buy has a tank about 6ft tall 2ftlong 2ft wide but ive got a tank that is 3 1/2 ft long 2ft wide and 1 1/2 ft high which is ok because i have 2 other beardie with about the same measuements which are really active and happy:thumbup:im 10 aswel


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

serpentseye said:


> they were feeding cabbage all the time, and when i stormed up and told them they said it was spinach to save their own skin
> 
> I think i can tell the difference between spinsch and cabbage! (it was the one at footscray.)


Blimey. Well spinach should not be given to reptiles full stop. It binds calcium.
Spring greens should be the staple of a beardies diet, which means they should eat it every day.


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

It really does baffle me why anyone would buy an animal - especially a reptile - from the likes of Pets at Home.

Do you know where these animals come from? Breeding farms.

Not from knowledgable, experienced breeders, but from a farm purely there to make money.
What you will more than likely end up with is a an animal with a shorter life span than normal, various health issues, possible aggression and a ton of vets bills.
Not to mention you will be financing the above so it keeps in business.

Pets Pet Pets - The _minimum_ (that means it should ideally be bigger) length of vivarium for 1 adult beardie is 48inches (4ft)


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## Guest (May 2, 2010)

MissG said:


> It really does baffle me why anyone would buy an animal - especially a reptile - from the likes of Pets at Home.
> 
> Do you know where these animals come from? Breeding farms.
> 
> ...


well said! this goes for their rodents aswell, supplied by rodent farms, then shoved in tiny tanks with nothing to stimulate them


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## Jonansi (Nov 20, 2009)

To my mind, the life of a lamb is no less 
precious than that of a human being. The 
more helpless the creature, the more 
that it is entitled to protection by 
man from the cruelty of man. 
Mahatma Gandhi

Just wanted to say that I love this quote...it made me stop and think of why humane hunting to control the fox population is important...to save newborn lambs from sly, needless slaughter for the sick pleasure of a vicious animal who kills for fun, not just for food. It's a shame not all foxes live in urban areas where there is rich, easy pickings from the abominable food waste that us humans create.


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

MoonShadow said:


> I am in shock that you are only TEN :scared: you are very wise for your age  :thumbup: I am impressed with your caring heart towards animals at such a young age you are only one year older then my son


thank you


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## Guest (May 3, 2010)

Jonansi said:


> To my mind, the life of a lamb is no less
> precious than that of a human being. The
> more helpless the creature, the more
> that it is entitled to protection by
> ...


i think you've misunderstood what Gandhi was meaning altogether despite him plainly stating *man* as the animal we should be protecting the lamb from!


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## Jonansi (Nov 20, 2009)

Shamen said:


> i think you've misunderstood what Gandhi was meaning altogether despite him plainly stating *man* as the animal we should be protecting the lamb from!


What I actually was trying to put across was the irony in one 'man' protecting lamb but mostly for use by other 'man' who lamb needs protection from. Hope that sounds a bit clearer. Probably not:001_unsure:


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## Guest (May 4, 2010)

Jonansi said:


> What I actually was trying to put across was the irony in one 'man' protecting lamb but mostly for use by other 'man' who lamb needs protection from. Hope that sounds a bit clearer. Probably not:001_unsure:


lol i think thats probably what Gandhi was meaning aswell


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

doogpoh said:


> I think it gives them wind and lizards can't fart  so not to good for there tummies


I think that's got to be one of the funniest quotes I've seen in a while.
Has anyone ever heard a lizard fart?

It's the basic lectuce varieties which have no nutritional value. There's plenty of people who feed cabbage to their reptiles. I've never heard there's a problem with it before.

Miss G
"It really does baffle you why anyone would buy an animals". I think most people on this forum would be stunned by that statement.
There are always areas of interest which a great number of people can't understand why anyone would be interested in that. Some people hate sport or certain kinds of music. It's whatever hits you hot button, whatever get you excited. Whatever turns your head when it's on TV.


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## Guest (May 6, 2010)

Paul Dunham said:


> Miss G
> "It really does baffle you why anyone would buy an animals". I think most people on this forum would be stunned by that statement.
> There are always areas of interest which a great number of people can't understand why anyone would be interested in that. Some people hate sport or certain kinds of music. It's whatever hits you hot button, whatever get you excited. Whatever turns your head when it's on TV.


I think you need to read the other part of MissG's sentence, she is asking why anyone would buy any animal from pets @ home. This is a very good question with a logical meaning, going by [email protected]'s track record of churning out poor quality specimens, many of which probably die several months later, however maybe I'm speculating.

My commiserations to anyone who has handed over their hard earned cash for one of these animals, myself included as I will bitterly admit...


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

Paul Dunham said:


> Miss G
> "It really does baffle you why anyone would buy an animals". I think most people on this forum would be stunned by that statement.
> There are always areas of interest which a great number of people can't understand why anyone would be interested in that. Some people hate sport or certain kinds of music. It's whatever hits you hot button, whatever get you excited. Whatever turns your head when it's on TV.


Well baring in mind that you have only quoted half a sentence, and actually changed it yourself - I am guessing they would too!


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

Sorry Miss G,

I did misread your post. Your absolutely right about pets at home. They should be prosecuted.

Thanks for pulling me up. I'll be more careful next time.


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

Paul Dunham said:


> Sorry Miss G,
> 
> I did misread your post. Your absolutely right about pets at home. They should be prosecuted.
> 
> Thanks for pulling me up. I'll be more careful next time.


No worries


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## chunderingbadger (May 7, 2010)

I never thought cabbage was a big no no. as far as i know iceburg lettuce is only bad because of the type of pesticide they use on it, along with the fact that all lettuces being 90 something % water don't actually contain any real benefit for the dragon nutritionaly. 
As far as slating pets at home...what the hell??? ive got one near me thats awesome. I think your referring to a specific branch. Ive got another pet shop near me that put adult locust in with baby beardies, yes the locust are nearly as big as the dragons. wtf? And every pet shop ive ever been into sells poxy calci-sand.

On a similar note, i think pets at home have like courses or something they can go on. theirs a girl in my one who says she did a reptile course through them...having been a beardie keeper myself for years i can tell you she def knew what she was talking about!! so maybe you just spoke to the weekend kid who is only their for the money?
you get those in every shop, lol...i dont think you can condemn a whole company for one branch dude


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

Blimey a Pets at Home with someone who knows about animals? Now thats a rarity. I would say your very lucky. The testaments here and in my experience it appears to be the norm.
I and many of my friends who know something about animals have on occasion applied for work in Pets at Home and have found the last thing they seem to be interested in is your knowledge of animals. It's a disgrace.
Their training courses seem to be just fulfiling a criterior.

Animals are just a commodity to them.


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

chunderingbadger said:


> I never thought cabbage was a big no no. as far as i know iceburg lettuce is only bad because of the type of pesticide they use on it, along with the fact that all lettuces being 90 something % water don't actually contain any real benefit for the dragon nutritionaly.
> As far as slating pets at home...what the hell??? ive got one near me thats awesome. I think your referring to a specific branch. Ive got another pet shop near me that put adult locust in with baby beardies, yes the locust are nearly as big as the dragons. wtf? And every pet shop ive ever been into sells poxy calci-sand.
> 
> On a similar note, i think pets at home have like courses or something they can go on. theirs a girl in my one who says she did a reptile course through them...having been a beardie keeper myself for years i can tell you she def knew what she was talking about!! so maybe you just spoke to the weekend kid who is only their for the money?
> you get those in every shop, lol...i dont think you can condemn a whole company for one branch dude


Having better staff at one branch and not another is besides the point.

It's where the animals, that they sell, come from that's the topic in question here.


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

Is that a Pigmy Hedgehog you got there Miss G?


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

Paul Dunham said:


> Is that a Pigmy Hedgehog you got there Miss G?


Yeah - cute isn't she?


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

Yeah they are cute. I had a couple of males, "Benson & hedges". There brilliant pets. Not very smelly either.


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

Paul Dunham said:


> Yeah they are cute. I had a couple of males, "Benson & hedges". There brilliant pets. Not very smelly either.


LOL, cool names? What colours were they? Holly's a champagne. Well yeah, any animal is going to begin to smell if you don't clean them out often enough, but their poo does stink!


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

My two spent a good deal of time wandering around the house using a cat litter tray. That's how I noticed they didn't smell, otherwise I wouldn't have put up with it. I never caught them doing their business anywhere else. 
Mine weren't as pale as yours, a little darker. I never really got into the different colour morphs.
I used to love sitting down at night watching them wiz back a forth when I was watching TV.

One of them wrecked my printer because he kept going inside and falling asleep.


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## chunderingbadger (May 7, 2010)

surely they get them from well established breeders?? they sell enough animals. i mean your all saying they need to be shut down because of how they treat animals but my one cleans em out everyday, and by the looks of it replace the water and food daily too, and the only time i saw a dead fish this guy with a beard was removing it. 
i was in their for a while talking to someone when pickin up live food...i got my beardie from a small place where as i say, adult locust were put with baby beardies. and they recomended me calci-sand as a substrate come to think of it.

if lots of people have bad experience with them fair play, i'm not arguing some of them may not be doing their job properly i just think that the RSPCA or animal welfare people would have already stepped in if their was an issue???
Theirs no way a company that treated the animals that badly would be able to stay in business...in my experience people REALLY complain about animals not being treated properly.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

A month or so ago a pets at home opened in our area... Me and my daughter went to have a look about... There were goldfish floating on the top of the tanks the ones that were alive were sitting on the bottom not looking too healthy at all ... And they were still selling them to people.. I told two young girls that they all looked rather Ill and not bother..but they continued to look and buy


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## chickenrun (Jan 31, 2010)

i would agree with the fish part of it everyone i speak to about fish they say dont buy from pets at home as they die soon after you get home... i have had fish from there and died within a hour of being in my tank


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

My sister runs an aquatic shop and has a quarantine area at home, a HUGE brick built outbuilding actually, where all fish are quarantined and fed well etc before being taken to the shop to go up for sale. If fish in the shop fall sick then that tank is put in darkness and a 'Not for sale' sign goes on until those fish are completely cured. P&H do not seem to have the same policy....


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

chunderingbadger said:


> surely they get them from well established breeders?? they sell enough animals. i mean your all saying they need to be shut down because of how they treat animals but my one cleans em out everyday, and by the looks of it replace the water and food daily too, and the only time i saw a dead fish this guy with a beard was removing it.
> i was in their for a while talking to someone when pickin up live food...i got my beardie from a small place where as i say, adult locust were put with baby beardies. and they recomended me calci-sand as a substrate come to think of it.
> 
> if lots of people have bad experience with them fair play, i'm not arguing some of them may not be doing their job properly i just think that the RSPCA or animal welfare people would have already stepped in if their was an issue???
> Theirs no way a company that treated the animals that badly would be able to stay in business...in my experience people REALLY complain about animals not being treated properly.


I don't think any well established breeder would want to see their well-thought out babies go off to some superstore at such a very young age. Good breeders don't breed en masse either - there's never a lack of animals at [email protected]

Have you seen a warehouse breeding operation? I'll find you a link to a thread all about one if you want to know where they most likely come from. The staff always tell you they come from a 'local breeder' because it sounds nicer and management won't let them know any details either (presumably so you can't track down the mass breeder and buy all your animals for the pennies that they're stocking them in for)


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

chunderingbadger said:


> surely they get them from well established breeders?? they sell enough animals. i mean your all saying they need to be shut down because of how they treat animals but my one cleans em out everyday, and by the looks of it replace the water and food daily too, and the only time i saw a dead fish this guy with a beard was removing it.
> i was in their for a while talking to someone when pickin up live food...i got my beardie from a small place where as i say, adult locust were put with baby beardies. and they recomended me calci-sand as a substrate come to think of it.
> 
> if lots of people have bad experience with them fair play, i'm not arguing some of them may not be doing their job properly i just think that the RSPCA or animal welfare people would have already stepped in if their was an issue???
> Theirs no way a company that treated the animals that badly would be able to stay in business...in my experience people REALLY complain about animals not being treated properly.


That's a very common sense point of view you have there. You would think they would buy from reputable dealers, but they don't. There a commodity. It's about profit not animal welfare. They claim they don't sell wild caught, but I seen them in these establishments on many occasions.

As far as the RSPCA is concerned and the animal welfare institutions, I have never in my life come accross a more useless group of organisations as these.
They know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about exotic animals and refuse to engage with exotic animal lovers which would improve the quality of life of animals in captivity.
They are completely against anyone keeping anything exotic in captivity. They will not employ anyone with experience with exotic animals because by virtue of the fact you have kept them you are a cruel person.

Imagine having an electrician coming to to your house and he know nothing about electrics. That's the RSPCA.


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## serpentseye (Feb 20, 2010)

absoloutely agree. The RSPCA is currently running ONE reptile rescue centre.... While millions of beautiful animals are being tortured all around the world!!


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

I don't think I really need to comment as Argent and Paul have said everything.


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## C_G (Aug 23, 2010)

Old thread, just jumping on here....

I keep a collared lizard and shop at my local reptile place. They were talking to me about bearded dragond from pets at home and told me that although PAH do use some reputable breeders, they also source bulk breeders depending on how fashionable dragons are at the time. Las week they told me PAH were expecting 1000 babies to be distibuted throughout the stores, all of which have been bred purely to supply demand, transported in poor conditions and will not recieve the proper start in life as a consequence. 

My local store charges LESS for their livestock and equipment, so are not speaking to make a profit, I believe the care more for the animals they handle and always try to source local 'for the love of the breed' suppliers.

The same store provided all my tropical fish for the years I kept an aquarium, with on hand help and advice if any problems were to come up.

I rescued a rabbit from the 'adopt me' section in [email protected], assured it had been thoroughly vet checked, the poor thing gave birth at my house 3 days later, then they would not accept the rabbit and babies back when i said I was not in the position to look after 9! I ended up having to take them to the rescue centre so the could recieve the proper care they needed.

I would source locally, especially now the internet and forums like this make it so much easier


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

A prime example of why people should not shop at Pets at Home. The animals are purely a comodity to them. I thought I would try to get a job with them, but when I walked around their store and saw the cruel eqiupment they sell to keep the poor animals in I knew I couldn't bring myself to do it. Their attitude towards caging is the same as Sea Monkeys were to Toys "R" US. Just a toy to be played with and disguarded.


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## tigerseye (Aug 20, 2010)

and now one of he ones near me are keeping fully grown crested geckos in a cage the size of a shoebox


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## Allana (Jul 7, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> No its very true
> 
> You will never ever see an understocked [email protected] They even return some unsold rodents to the mass/warehouse breeders they buy them from. They are either used as breeding stock, or mass euthanised, often for reptile food.


I used to work here when i finished my 3 year HND on animal care, welfare & management. I was taken on as a supervisor in a brand new store and just out of college i was so naive! They were terrible to work for and the people that they took on even worse! They wanted me to become assistant manger but i walked out, i'm sure i had to sign some sort of disclosure thing when they hired me.

Anyway i fell out with them due to the fact that if animals were ill i had to fight to have them taken to the vets, as anything like that affected the 'SALES FIGURES' for the week as we had spent on vet treatment!!
We did buy small furries off decent local breeders and also finches etc but they started buying in bunnies and piggies from some dump in Glasgow and they were always sick! That was the pushing point for me!

I liked my job as i tried to help new owners the best i could but PAH weren't interested in me and what i had to offer or the welfare of the animals, its all about the ££££££ to them!

Plus their wages were absolutly terrible considering their prices!


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

On the issue of surplus animals being returned and eventually used for reptile food. There are many negative aspects to keeping animals in captivity. If keepers want to continue keeping animals then they must understand and accept certain practices. The fact is many baby animals do go past their best sell by date for becoming ideal pets, and are no longer wanted by the general public. These animals often get given away or passed around and eventually die from neglect. If people want to keep snakes and other canivores in captivity then their food has to come from some where. It's better to make use of surplus stock for food than allow the cruel neglect which inevitably would happen. 

This is not an issue of cruelty, although it cruel to kill any animal for what ever reason. Even if it's to feed ourselves it's still cruel to the animal in question. This is an issue of practical use of surplus stock.


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## xXhayleyroxX (Apr 18, 2008)

Paul Dunham said:


> That's a very common sense point of view you have there. You would think they would buy from reputable dealers, but they don't. There a commodity. It's about profit not animal welfare. They claim they don't sell wild caught, but I seen them in these establishments on many occasions.
> 
> As far as the RSPCA is concerned and the animal welfare institutions, I have never in my life come accross a more useless group of organisations as these.
> They know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about exotic animals and refuse to engage with exotic animal lovers which would improve the quality of life of animals in captivity.
> ...


what... the RSPCA are the only organisation actually doing something physically to help animals. At my college, one of the specifications is looking after exotics (in captivity) and that helps us get the job we want. Many of us have gone to the RSPCA, and want to also. The RSPCA is not PETA.

I agree about pets @ home though -- although its the only place we can buy animal feed.


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

xXhayleyroxX said:


> what... the RSPCA are the only organisation actually doing something physically to help animals. At my college, one of the specifications is looking after exotics (in captivity) and that helps us get the job we want. Many of us have gone to the RSPCA, and want to also. The RSPCA is not PETA.
> 
> I agree about pets @ home though -- although its the only place we can buy animal feed.


I'm 50 years old and have had a lifetime observing the RSPCA. I've written articles critisising the RSPCA in National magazines read by many eminent experts, book writers and zoologists, who have been in complete agreement with the views which I have written. I have never come accross a single RSPCA officer who knows anything about exotic animals. They refuse to employ animal keepers and experts who devote their entire lives and income to animals. Instead they employ people with almost no knowledge of animals, get them to attend a course which teaches almost nothing. And then they indoctrinate them into their own way of thinking. Which enevitably will lead to more cruelty and the extinction of species kept in captivity.

How can a animal care course be a substitute for many years of actual hands on experience? How can a animal care course be a replacement for someone who lives and breeds animals and understands their welfare? Animal lovers such as these are excluded from working in animal protection by the RSPCA because they disagree with exotic animals in captivity.

What were left with is an organisation which hasn't got a clue what it's doing and helps to perpetuate cruelty through their ignorance.

If there's a representative of the RSPCA out there somewhere? I would be very happy to to argue this point with them.


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Paul Dunham said:


> I'm 50 years old and have had a lifetime observing the RSPCA. I've written articles critisising the RSPCA in National magazines read by many eminent experts, book writers and zoologists, who have been in complete agreement with the views which I have written. I have never come accross a single RSPCA officer who knows anything about exotic animals. They refuse to employ animal keepers and experts who devote their entire lives and income to animals. Instead they employ people with almost no knowledge of animals, get them to attend a course which teaches almost nothing. And then they indoctrinate them into their own way of thinking. Which enevitably will lead to more cruelty and the extinction of species kept in captivity.
> 
> How can a animal care course be a substitute for many years of actual hands on experience? How can a animal care course be a replacement for someone who lives and breeds animals and understands their welfare? Animal lovers such as these are excluded from working in animal protection by the RSPCA because they disagree with exotic animals in captivity.
> 
> ...


Completely agree!!


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

crofty said:


> Completely agree!!


Same I'm afraid. I have little faith in them anymore - and I used to watch Pet Rescue every day in the hopes of becoming one of these heroes that does animals justice every day.
[email protected] are a sick joke IMO, it's all a facade with them.


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## xXhayleyroxX (Apr 18, 2008)

Thats really surprising :/ But don;t bad mouth my animal care course :/ Its very successful and it has loads of hands on experience. I will research more into this.


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

xXhayleyroxX said:


> Thats really surprising :/ But don;t bad mouth my animal care course :/ Its very successful and it has loads of hands on experience. I will research more into this.


Sorry, I don't mean to bad mouth the animal care courses or their providers. They provide an essential service for beginners. A service which has been long over due for many years. But the RSPCA seem to use these limited qualifactions as a replacement for genuine hands on experience from vocational people who understand animals. (you get black balled by them for keeping exotics).

They seem to employ too many people where it's just a job and don't have any interest in animals outside of work. They would provide a service a thousand times better if they employed true animal lovers. The sort of people who would still be pursuing their animal hobbies even if they won the lottery.


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## xXhayleyroxX (Apr 18, 2008)

At the end of the day I want to be helping/saving/rescuing animals and an animal cruelty inspector in the RSPCA fits all those areas for me, although I am considering vetinary work or working in a zoo/animal enclosure. And for whats its worth, if I won the lottery; I'd create my own animal shelter, continue work rescuing animals and keep them myself


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I used to have dealings with the RSPCA inspectors when I was a dog warden. I often detected frustration and despondency in them when Head Office made decisions against the Inspectors better judgement leaving them doing their jobs with one hand tied behind their backs. The one I knew best could not look me in the eyes when he told me that HO had decided only to issue a written caution to a woman who had allowed a dog to become so sick with mange that I had to carry it straight to my van to be put down as it was maggot ridden and near death! It was not HIS decision but that of Head Office. 

But as for P&H, I shop there for dry goods but I refuse to buy an animal from them as they are mass bred and poorly handled for the most part so why encourage the trade? The staff, well...what can you say? Some are good (but they tend to get frustrated and move on) and some would be better off working at MacDonalds for all the knowledge they have. I was in there once buying 'Chin-Chillers' for my chinchillas!  They are granite tiles that the chins can lie on to keep them cool. The sales assistant could not understand why chinchillas needed them yet they had chinchillas for sale??? I just gave her a withering look and suggested she try reading one of the chinchilla books they had on sale during her break.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2010)

In all [email protected] stores, I for one would like to see a complete ban on the sale of live fish. The staff who manage the aquatics are poorly trained, have very little fishkeeping experience and have the attitude that the animals in their care are mere expendables.

On most visits to my local store - purely out of being nosy - I see tanks littered with dead or diseased fish. Infections are rife in the aquariums, all of which are joined together as part of a centralized filtration system, so disease can spread from tank to tank in a vicious circle in a matter of hours.

What I also find to be completely unnacceptable is the fact they keep fish with others which are total unsuitable, given dietary, habitat and temperamental differences. I've seen a _Metriaclima lombardoi_ (an aggressive species of Malawi cichlid) beat the hell out of a Parrot cichlid (a hybrid derived from two cichlid species originating from South America) in the same tank. When I went to inform the staff, I was greeted with an unconcerned "We'll look into it".


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Chillinator said:


> In all [email protected] stores, I for one would like to see a complete ban on the sale of live fish. The staff who manage the aquatics are poorly trained, have very little fishkeeping experience and have the attitude that the animals in their care are mere expendables.
> 
> On most visits to my local store - purely out of being nosy - I see tanks littered with dead or diseased fish. Infections are rife in the aquariums, all of which are joined together as part of a centralized filtration system, so disease can spread from tank to tank in a vicious circle in a matter of hours.


My sister has owned her own aquatics business for years and absolutely despairs of the way P&H fish are kept! The advice people are given there is dreadful at times and she ends up having to totally re-educate people who end up at her shop asking for help when things go wrong. I can always locate her in P&H when we are in there by the tutting sounds as she examines the fish!


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## Full-Iron (Jul 3, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> My sister has owned her own aquatics business for years and absolutely despairs of the way P&H fish are kept! The advice people are given there is dreadful at times and she ends up having to totally re-educate people who end up at her shop asking for help when things go wrong. I can always locate her in P&H when we are in there by the tutting sounds as she examines the fish!


:lol: That made me laugh :thumbup:


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

xXhayleyroxX said:


> At the end of the day I want to be helping/saving/rescuing animals and an animal cruelty inspector in the RSPCA fits all those areas for me, although I am considering vetinary work or working in a zoo/animal enclosure. And for whats its worth, if I won the lottery; I'd create my own animal shelter, continue work rescuing animals and keep them myself


I sincerely hope you go for the exotic animal vet. Given your love of animals I think you would be good at it. That's what I wish I had done.

I think the RSPCA would frustrate and disillusion you and eventually P**S you off. Every animal lover feels empathy with the values the RSPCA profess. But in practice their ineffective a pretty useless. I don't think today's RSPCA represents the values it once had. Todays RSPCA is more about money and power than cruelty to animals. It's more politcally driven and we all know how useless and ineffective any organisation is using government methods.


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## CandySwap (Sep 3, 2010)

The problem with reptiles (and reptile forums) is that there are so many pseudo-experts out there that spout second hand information without any real experience themselves.

As far as feeding cabbage to Beardies is concerned, dark leafy cabbage is okay and spring greens are fine too (in my opinion). I have fed spinach too with no ill effects but only rarely.

I avoided iceberg lettuce, not because it is poisonous more due to the fact that it is so high in water content it provided little nutritional value and caused upset stomachs resulting in runny stools.

As for supplements, the full spectrum UV lighting provided much needed benefits and I dusted all foods lightly (crickets and salad/greens) with calcium Mon-Friday and with nutrabol multi vit on weekends.

The RFUK forum is a good forum but there are people on there so set in their ways that they practically go for the throat of anyone who states anything they deem to be incorrect.

I think any 10 year old who has clearly spent time researching a subject as complex, confusing and downright incorrect much of the time reflects your commitment to finding the truth. Good on you but dont be so hard on peoples ignorance (although people selling reptiles should be EXPERTS in their successful care).

Whenever you get advice NEVER take it as face value or take it as gospel otherwise you will end up confused and frustrated. Just read, read and read some more and then learn from your experience.


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## xXhayleyroxX (Apr 18, 2008)

Paul Dunham said:


> I sincerely hope you go for the exotic animal vet. Given your love of animals I think you would be good at it. That's what I wish I had done.
> 
> I think the RSPCA would frustrate and disillusion you and eventually P**S you off. Every animal lover feels empathy with the values the RSPCA profess. But in practice their ineffective a pretty useless. I don't think today's RSPCA represents the values it once had. Todays RSPCA is more about money and power than cruelty to animals. It's more politcally driven and we all know how useless and ineffective any organisation is using government methods.


I will certaintly consider it! I have a lot to consider


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

CandySwap said:


> The problem with reptiles (and reptile forums) is that there are so many pseudo-experts out there that spout second hand information without any real experience themselves.
> 
> As far as feeding cabbage to Beardies is concerned, dark leafy cabbage is okay and spring greens are fine too (in my opinion). I have fed spinach too with no ill effects but only rarely.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree totally. There are plenty of so called EXPERTS spouting misinformation and some very dubious wives tales as if there fact and much of this information appears in books too. I read many articles and books which contain total rubbish even from the scientific community.

DOUBLE AND TRIPLE CHECK EVERYTHING. If something doesn't sound right, it probably isn't.


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## julyyoyo (May 22, 2009)

it's true that some people think that they know everything about the pets
but the truth is that they don't know how to feed the unusual and unpredictable pet properly
sometimes they just won't listen to your advice :frown:


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

julyyoyo said:


> it's true that some people think that they know everything about the pets
> but the truth is that they don't know how to feed the unusual and unpredictable pet properly
> sometimes they just won't listen to your advice :frown:


It's impossible to know everthing about animals. There are too many species for anyone to remember. Let alone know how their all kept and whatever individual idiosyncrasies they have. I remember a time when they were discovering between 15-20,000 new species of insect every year. Yet if you can memorise just a couple of hundred species then your considered an expert.

There's no such thing as an animal expert. There are just people who know a little more about animals than other people. Anyone who thinks they know everything is an idiot and don't listen to them. They never admit their wrong. Often the information we have on keeping animals is an evolving process and techniques for keeping them changes as we learn more about them. Which ever animal you keep there is always a better way of keeping it.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

julyyoyo said:


> it's true that some people think that they know everything about the pets
> but the truth is that they don't know how to feed the unusual and unpredictable pet properly
> sometimes they just won't listen to your advice :frown:


True. I have lost count of the times I have seen people come onto forums to ask "Does anyone know anything about this type of animal because I've just bought one, blah blah"  Do your homework BEFORE buying - for the animals sake!



Paul Dunham said:


> There's no such thing as an animal expert. There are just people who know a little more about animals than other people. Anyone who thinks they know everything is an idiot and don't listen to them. They never admit their wrong. Often the information we have on keeping animals is an evolving process and techniques for keeping them changes as we learn more about them. Which ever animal you keep there is always a better way of keeping it.


I would also agree. No-one can ever be an expert on living beings as there is always something else to learn. For instance, dog training methods evolve and change, mostly for the better, yet a lot of people do not evaluate their learning and update their methods despite bettter ways of doing it coming along!


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2010)

The problem with the term 'expert' is that how can anyone judge someone to be an expert? There is no limit to the amount of knowledge that can be acquired in whatever field this person is an 'expert' in, and it is imposible for someone to acquire all of this knowledge.


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## xXhayleyroxX (Apr 18, 2008)

Hmmm that is true. I would consider myself to know a lot about animals, because I'm studying level 3 animal management, have had work experience, have kept animals all my life and am being trained to care and cater for the most popular animals which are kept as pets/livestock. But I would not say I am an expert.

There's a guy in our class who believes he is an expert  He's really not.


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

xXhayleyroxX said:


> Hmmm that is true. I would consider myself to know a lot about animals, because I'm studying level 3 animal management, have had work experience, have kept animals all my life and am being trained to care and cater for the most popular animals which are kept as pets/livestock. But I would not say I am an expert.
> 
> There's a guy in our class who believes he is an expert  He's really not.


EXPERT! EXPERT! EXPERT! It's an expression which frightens me more than any other. There's nothing more frightening especially when you here the words "GOVERNMENT EXPERT". Then you know for sure they've got it wrong.

When I was a teenager I throught I pretty much knew everything after memorising all four volumes Delacours book of Ducks Geese & Swans of the world. His book of Pheasants. Brown and Andamons Eagles Hawks and Falcons of the World. and countless specialist bird books proporting to contain every species on the planet. Yeah everyone called me an EXPERT. Now I've reached 50, I think I know absolutely nothing after all these years of keeping and study. I feel I know less now than I did then.


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## caninemad (Oct 4, 2010)

Thought this might help, its a link to a bearded dragon nutrition/rescue site

Untitled Document

it clearly states that cabbage can be fed occasionally, collard/spring green can be used as a staple.

:thumbup:


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## XtrmJosh (Nov 30, 2010)

Oh dear oh dear.

I need to tell you something that you really ain't gonna like.

Cabbage isn't poisonous to beardies, nor is iceburg.

Sorry.

The only reason it's not good for them, is because it doesn't have any nutritional value for them. It won't "hurt" them at all, nor do any harm. All it will do is be eaten, digested, and pooped out. The only reason it can cause diorreah is because it's got no nutritional value, so the beardie won't digest it at all, it'll just slip through his system.

I can agree with you though, pets at home "experts" aren't very well trained.


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## fuzzymum (Nov 29, 2010)

Hmmm cabbage is fine, the darker the better. Curly kale is pretty awesome for them. Lettuce is not poisonous, it just doesnt hold any nutritional value so not much point in giving it to them, and can give them a dicky tummy. 
Seriously would doubt that giving cabbage would cause MBD so dont panic! 
However, do agree that pets at home are useless xx


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## cat001 (Apr 12, 2008)

From what I've read cabbage is actually a goitrogenic vegetable, and binds to iodine preventing its absorption, so should be fed sparingly, but can still be part of a healthy diet.

Iodine deficiency causes goitre and fluid retention and is often encountered in giant terrestrial tortoises, which will exhibit goitre by swelling of the neck.

It's not 'poisonous' per se, but does posses iodine binding properties which reduce the availability of dietry iodine, preventing its absorption through the gut.

I've entered this thread a little late!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I was fuming at petsathome a few months back, the lady at the till had the cheek to give me 'advice' I didnt ask her for any (why would I?) and what she came out with was total crap! When I asked 'how many cats do you own?' She said 'none I own dogs!!'

Bloody cheek I was SO annoyed!


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2010)

I was pretty impressed when i last went into P&H in Reading (oxford road). 

Someone wanted to buy two rabbits and the sales person asked what the living arangements were to which he replied that he would not sell to them with an outdoor hutch as its winter and the rabbits havent built up a winter coat. He also told them that the hutch they had was too small for one rabbit let alone two and he wishes [email protected] didnt sell them. he also went into a detailed convo about the cost of keeping a pair of rabbits vaccines neutering etc and telling them what they needed to stay happy and healthy. Then the customer said thanks and that she didnt think a rabbit was a suitable pet after all and whether she could send the hutch back for a refund (so im guessing it wasnt even set up )

Just wanted to say this so that people know that [email protected] staff arnt all idiots giving out bad advice.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

This is another Thread about [email protected] Just about sums it up......

http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/133775-pets-home-ha-ha.html


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

Whats this? Are Rabbits now suddenly an inside pet? Last time I looked almost everyone kept them outside. As an ex pet shop owner I would normally expect pretty much all the rabbits I sold to be kept outside in a hutch. Pets at home should know this and should never keep them indoors in the first place. Ultimately at some point someone's going to buy one and thoughtlessly put it out in the cold. Rabbits have evolved to live outside and to keep them indoors produces a weaker and a more illness prone animals. The fact of the matter is on the whole they have no consideration for the the animals they sell. Just take a look round one of their stores. Much of the the equipment they sell has more in common with Toys R Us, and the tiny cages people are expected to keep animals in are quite simply cruel. The RSPCA would be more productive chasing and prosecuting pet product manufacturers and retailers instead of pursueing the individual pet owner who has only taken the advice given to them by these idiots.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Paul Dunham said:


> Whats this? Are Rabbits now suddenly an inside pet? Last time I looked almost everyone kept them outside. As an ex pet shop owner I would normally expect pretty much all the rabbits I sold to be kept outside in a hutch. Pets at home should know this and should never keep them indoors in the first place. Ultimately at some point someone's going to buy one and thoughtlessly put it out in the cold. Rabbits have evolved to live outside and to keep them indoors produces a weaker and a more illness prone animals. The fact of the matter is on the whole they have no consideration for the the animasls they sell. Just take a look round one of their stores. Much of the the equipment they sell has more in common with Toys R Us, and the tiny cages people are expected to keep animals in are quite simply cruel. The RSPCA would be more productive chasing and prosecuting pet product manufacturers and retailers instead of pursueing the individual pet owner who has only taken the advice given to them by these idiots.


A lot of rabbits are kept inside rather than outside in a hutch and they do great it's not producing sick animals . The cages there are far too small but so are most of the hutches they sell.


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## squeaker (Nov 29, 2010)

i goota laugh really. Just called RSPCA on them yesterday . Beardie had no water, dried up poop in food bowl with crusty old cabbage looking stuff, a dangerous plastic loop tag on a plastic plant to get tangled up in and a swollen eye. 

Idiots can't even provide basic needs evidently. Water, safety, fresh food and veterinary attention?

And the rabbit thing lol. I asked what breed the giant house rabbit was. It's a giant house rabbit! Yeah, but what breed? It's a French Lop she said. As i looked down at the conti cross i said mmmmm... Got a very long face and upright ears. Yeah she said. Cute isn't it? Jeez! 

i have an issue with the place, absolutely. Now they are inventing breeds that live indoors :lol:


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> A lot of rabbits are kept inside rather than outside in a hutch and they do great it's not producing sick animals . The cages there are far too small but so are most of the hutches they sell.


I would agree there are many Rabbits kept indoors which do very well. As long as their kept indoors. The problem begins if someone decides they want to keep them outside. There are many problems re-aclimatising animals to the outside environment simply because their immune system has weakened due to the pampered indoor environment. I did not say it produced sick animals. I was saying it produiced animals with a weaker immune ststem.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Paul Dunham said:


> I would agree there are many Rabbits kept indoors which do very well. As long as their kept indoors. The problem begins if someone decides they want to keep them outside. There are many problems re-aclimatising animals to the outside environment simply because their immune system has weakened due to the pampered indoor environment. I did not say it produced sick animals. I was saying it produiced animals with a weaker immune ststem.


No just means they don't develop a winter coat because they're not out in the cold. They shouldn't just be thrown outside in the middle of winter but neither should an outdoor rabbit be brought inside into the heat from it being very coldr


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## squeaker (Nov 29, 2010)

It's a crazy place.

They raise money for other animal chairties by rehoming nwanted pets and their own that have grown too big too sell or been returned etc.

Would it not be more help to not sell the friggin animals in the first place??!

It's all backwards as far as i can see.

I'm not a lizard specialist by any means but i know one that needs attention and water! 

Stupid shop!


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## DaniKitten (Dec 7, 2010)

Earlier this year I wandered into my local [email protected] for some bits and bobs to give the menagerie and spotted some gorgeous looking baby rats. Went home to have a think and ended up going back the following week to have another look, spoke to a girl in there (after she had the "you deal with her" "no, you deal with her" argument with a collegue) who told me thy were all born in the shop as they didn't know they had a pregnant female, I brought two home, george and Sebastian...could I hell as handle them, for them to be off spring of an animal that would have been up for sale had she not been up the duff they were more like young wild rats I'd found in a field. 

Mum works at our vets so when I walked in to the room where we kept the rats (away from moggys) and found one of them dead at 6 months of age she spoke to one of the vets who said he was most likely the runt and maybe just had an underlying problem, however, for the other one to go downhill within two weeks, he lost very ounce of weight, couldnt get warm, he looked aincient!!! I took him straight into the vets after spending the night warming him up and trying to get fluids into him...turns out it was a tuma, he had to be put down there and then as he was so ill, I was told by the vet that it was a very unlikely coincidence for them both to die within weeks and that it was most likely their breeding, as soon as I told her where I bought them she just shook her head...

I was under the impression the dead fish in the tanks were decorations as every tank has one...

I will never buy any animal from [email protected] again, the majority of staff have no real knowledge and you can't garauntee the health or temperment of the animals, too much cost and heartache


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## squeaker (Nov 29, 2010)

My lil Babies said:


> I was pretty impressed when i last went into P&H in Reading (oxford road).
> 
> Someone wanted to buy two rabbits and the sales person asked what the living arangements were to which he replied that he would not sell to them with an outdoor hutch as its winter and the rabbits havent built up a winter coat. He also told them that the hutch they had was too small for one rabbit let alone two and he wishes [email protected] didnt sell them. he also went into a detailed convo about the cost of keeping a pair of rabbits vaccines neutering etc and telling them what they needed to stay happy and healthy. Then the customer said thanks and that she didnt think a rabbit was a suitable pet after all and whether she could send the hutch back for a refund (so im guessing it wasnt even set up )
> 
> Just wanted to say this so that people know that [email protected] staff arnt all idiots giving out bad advice.


I agree to a point. But why does the customer have to consider all these things but the retailer doesn't have to?! Worming, vaccinations, all the preventative care, some of which can and is expected to be carried out before sale isn't, putting many rabbits at risk. One rule for one! and pairs etc. They recommend two but will happily sell you one, even though the animal welfare act 2006 expects the owners to provide their pets with company of own kind if necessary. Big fat joke!

Good advice should be backed up with good practice and a good example in accordance with government guidlelines for the vending of pets.

It's an interesting one if anyone would like to join me?


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## morsel (Dec 22, 2010)

Neither cabbage or iceberg lettuce is poisonous. I think you have misinterpreted, dietary advice.Hi. Collard greens (spring greens) is basically a cabbage and is very good for Beardies. Where pets at home definitely falls short, is in their UV provision. Unfortunately, it is hard to tell them because there set ups are signed off by a vet, At least they provide D3 with their supplements.


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## Abster92 (Feb 10, 2011)

I can't comment on how pets at home treat their animals because i rarely go in there, i usually get all my pet supplies from the internet and i tend to rescue pets or take on older animals from a owners that can't keep them anymore. which is how i got my BDs. I've had them for a few months now and to be honest i've never fed cabbage. I've done my research and i've never read or heard anything about it being toxic to them. the only reason i don't feed it to them is because the people I got them from said it makes their poo smell worse and obviously, then their viv smells worse. thats the only reason I don't give mine cabbage.


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## Abster92 (Feb 10, 2011)

Yes rabbits can be kept indoors, it does them no harm what so ever, I know several rabbits that are kept as indoor rabbits with access to the garden. It keeps them much fitter as they have moore room to move around. 
As for the cages being sold being too small, I totally agree with that, if their main priority is the animal's health and welfare then they should bare this in mind when selling animals housing!



Paul Dunham said:


> Whats this? Are Rabbits now suddenly an inside pet? Last time I looked almost everyone kept them outside. As an ex pet shop owner I would normally expect pretty much all the rabbits I sold to be kept outside in a hutch. Pets at home should know this and should never keep them indoors in the first place. Ultimately at some point someone's going to buy one and thoughtlessly put it out in the cold. Rabbits have evolved to live outside and to keep them indoors produces a weaker and a more illness prone animals. The fact of the matter is on the whole they have no consideration for the the animals they sell. Just take a look round one of their stores. Much of the the equipment they sell has more in common with Toys R Us, and the tiny cages people are expected to keep animals in are quite simply cruel. The RSPCA would be more productive chasing and prosecuting pet product manufacturers and retailers instead of pursueing the individual pet owner who has only taken the advice given to them by these idiots.


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## miniloo (Feb 7, 2011)

our local pets at home have started an adoption centre, i have been in to see if i can get a gerbil and was told that it was a young one and that it was just unable to move with its owners to there new home. on looking closer the poor thing was close to the end of its life, it had oviously had a hard life and was covered in old wounds. knowing that it was for my daughter and not me i desided that i couldn't take it on, and went to look at some of the other pets. 
i wanted some toys for my cockatiles but they had so little to choose from i was shocked. when i asked they said that they don't have any call for toys as parrots don't play  

i got the the checkout with my new spinner plate for my pregnant mouse and was god smacked to see that they were sexing a hamster that a lady was buying with cage and everything and they told her she couldn't take it. 
aparently it was a female and had been in the cage with a male, duh, would you not have thought to check this earier, ok so she was right to not sell it but it doesn't exsuse that they were put in the wrong tanks in the beginning. 
when i asked what was going to happen to it she wouldn't tell me. 

i went from there to a petshop that i haven't been in before and was looking at there stock the man in the shop was very helpfull, telling me all about the fish and the hamsters. i was very impressed and will be going again soon. 

Well as soon as my bann from petshops is lifted lol. 

i did come home with 2 gerbils that day from another petshop, really only wanted one but hey the tanks big enough for 4 so i shouldn't moan i left that to my fella lol.


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## AngieB (Feb 9, 2011)

we got advised to feed green foods to our Beardie, and she loves it any veg salad we give she loves didnt realise this was bad food for them.


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## 0123456789 (Feb 17, 2011)

You guys seem to know a lot
http://www.petforums.co.uk/lizards/148338-leopard-gecko-bearded-dragon.html

Please can you check out my thread any opinions appreciated takk 
Tom


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## morsel (Dec 22, 2010)

AngieB said:


> we got advised to feed green foods to our Beardie, and she loves it any veg salad we give she loves didnt realise this was bad food for them.


THat's because it is not, as long as it is supplemented. One of the issues is goitrogens. Substances which can affect thyroid function. Some veg. has more than others. But this can be an issue for human beings too. It's a problem for those that suffer from hypothyroidism. But not everybody does. Lettuce doesn't contain nutrients. So people advise against it. Wouldn't be very filling though and is a good source of water; so I don't see the problem, if your dragon is a healthy weight and eats other things besides.


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## davidc (Dec 15, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> My sister and I went in to P& H at Masfield last week and she looked at the fish as they had completely refurbished the tank set up since last week. Every tank had whitespot which is not surprising as they use a mass filtering system instead if filtering each tank seperately. So what one tank goes down with, the others get it too. However the fish were still on sale even though treatment would take at least 7 days......
> 
> The Mansfield P&H has no large hamster cages now, only smaller ones.


Wilkinsons sells some tiny hamster cages and they state incorrectly that they are also suitable for gerbils. I emailed them about it stating why they are not suitable for gerbils. They insisted the RSPCA had advised them that the cages were suitable. I f9ound that hard to believe.


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