# pet corrector spray opinions?



## LittleHolly (Jun 15, 2015)

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/pet-corrector-spray-50ml

My SIL has just posted this on fb recommending it as its apparently helping her crazy rescue British bulldog

im quite lucky in that both my dogs are quite well behaved but ive spent alot of time trqining with them but know some rescues come with some unwanted learnt behaviours.Woukd you use this spray though? Do you think it works or just some ploy to make money also do you think it positively teaches the dog or negatively?

just interested to hear other peoples opinions really 

sorry for any typos im on my tablet and its always misspelling everything!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

LittleHolly said:


> http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/pet-corrector-spray-50ml
> 
> My SIL has just posted this on fb recommending it as its apparently helping her crazy rescue British bulldog
> 
> ...


I want my dogs to trust me, my hands and whatever I have in them. Frightening a dog does not teach it anything


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## LittleHolly (Jun 15, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> I want my dogs to trust me, my hands and whatever I have in them. Frightening a dog does not teach it anything


Sorry my tablet posted blank reply! I completely agree with you. reading the description it says it makes a hissing sound I don't know why people cant just use a noise with their mouth such as CHHH, TSSS, AH etc. I'm not sure whether the noise itself from this bottle just makes the dog go 'what the hell is it that noise' taking their attention away from what their doing or whether the noise scares them.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> I want my dogs to trust me, my hands and whatever I have in them. Frightening a dog does not teach it anything


Totally agree. One of the reasons we have no squeaky toys in the house is because the noise used to terrify my little Tibbie. She'd hide away for hours and wouldn't let anyone near her!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I saw Victoria Stillwell use something like that once, it does depend on the dog (some are fearful, some are just like 'What was that' and some don't pay the blind bit of notice), she does say it is a 'when all else has failed' and the behaviour is a/could become a dangerous one (she used it on a dog that would run out the front door as soon as it was opened and jump on guests and other training methods had failed) , you also are supposed to not let the dog see it's you causing the noise and very importantly, don't spray it at the dog.
I don't like the idea but as it is just compressed air I guess it is a better alternative to some things that could be used instead.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

As a person who has tried products like this (positive punishment) I would absolutely not recommend it. Choke chain, shock, spray citronella, high pitched noise, whatever you want to call it, unless you're extremely trained in how to use the product you're likely to cause your dog extreme stress and create other potentially worse or psychological and hard to fix problems in your dog. While it may "work" your dog may gain a lack of confidence, and or become fearful of you or situations surrounding what's happening to them. Example, using spray on a dog to get them to stop eating from people's plates may be affective, but if not done at the EXACT PRECISE MOMENT could cause your dog to become irrationally fearful of the table the plate is on or the couch the table is near. Your dog may also notice that this only happens when you're around, and begin to associate you with negative things happening to him, which results in fearfulness, lack of trust, lack of confidence, and potentially more disobedience (ie not coming to you in fear of you causing that bad thing to happen)


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

Animallover26 said:


> I saw Victoria Stillwell use something like that once, it does depend on the dog (some are fearful, some are just like 'What was that' and some don't pay the blind bit of notice), she does say it is a 'when all else has failed' and the behaviour is a/could become a dangerous one (she used it on a dog that would run out the front door as soon as it was opened and jump on guests and other training methods had failed) , you also are supposed to not let the dog see it's you causing the noise and very importantly, don't spray it at the dog.
> I don't like the idea but as it is just compressed air I guess it is a better alternative to some things that could be used instead.


This is an interesting way of looking at it. I think some dogs CAN handle it but it takes a trained professional to be able to determine that imo to avoid psychological damage to your dog. I certainly wouldn't trust my judgement, dogs are sometimes silent about their distress and hard to read. Also if the behavior is life threatening and needs to be ended immediately I can see where a very quick fix would be needed, but precautions could also be taken to keep the dog safe while working on better more positive training enforcement. Like if your dog bolts out the door, put up a gate and place the dog behind said gate or in another room when you have to open the door to let yourself out or strangers in until you can train basic commands like "come" "stay" "stop" "sit" etc which would all work in keeping your dog from running out the door.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> This is an interesting way of looking at it. I think some dogs CAN handle it but it takes a trained professional to be able to determine that imo to avoid psychological damage to your dog. I certainly wouldn't trust my judgement, dogs are sometimes silent about their distress and hard to read. Also if the behavior is life threatening and needs to be ended immediately I can see where a very quick fix would be needed, but precautions could also be taken to keep the dog safe while working on better more positive training enforcement. Like if your dog bolts out the door, put up a gate and place the dog behind said gate or in another room when you have to open the door to let yourself out or strangers in until you can train basic commands like "come" "stay" "stop" "sit" etc which would all work in keeping your dog from running out the door.


Fully agree with that. I watched the programme a long time ago so I can't remember exactly why they went with the spray, but I agree that it's best to only use something like that if you have professional help and it's even better to avoid using that type of thing all together, I may be remembering wrong but I think baby gates weren't working in the V.S. case.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

Animallover26 said:


> Fully agree with that. I watched the programme a long time ago so I can't remember exactly why they went with the spray, but I agree that it's best to only use something like that if you have professional help and it's even better to avoid using that type of thing all together, I may be remembering wrong but I think baby gates weren't working in the V.S. case.


Ah I see. I remember liking VS so I'm sure she had a good reason! And she is a trained professional, I would never hand just anyone a citronella or spray collar and tell them "use this when your dog is bad" because the results would most likely be horrendous.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Ah I see. I remember liking VS so I'm sure she had a good reason! And she is a trained professional, I would never hand just anyone a citronella or spray collar and tell them "use this when your dog is bad" because the results would most likely be horrendous.


Oh it's not a citronella spray, just air.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

Animallover26 said:


> Oh it's not a citronella spray, just air.


Ah! Ok. I'm not too familiar with air ones. Do they spray air into the dogs face? :/ Many dogs hate being blown on which I guess is the point but I wouldn't do that to my dog for same reasons already stated and also because it just seems rude.

I'd also be worried about him inhaling compressed air every time.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

chickenfoot said:


> Ah! Ok. I'm not too familiar with air ones. Do they spray air into the dogs face? :/ Many dogs hate being blown on which I guess is the point but I wouldn't do that to my dog for same reasons already stated and also because it just seems rude.
> 
> I'd also be worried about him inhaling compressed air every time.


No, you spray away from the dog, it's designed so it just makes a hiss sound so the dog hears the sound and stops what they are doing to see what made that noise. 
I'll have to see if I can find the programme.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

Animallover26 said:


> No, you spray away from the dog, it's designed so it just makes a hiss sound so the dog hears the sound and stops what they are doing to see what made that noise.
> I'll have to see if I can find the programme.


Oh okay! Thank you for explaining.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I would class it an aversive and really all it does is frighten the dog into a different behaviour IMO.

Far better to find out what is triggering the dog into the particular behaviour, and work on teaching the dog that it has no reason to react to it.

If a dog is reacting to a trigger out of fear, then it is doubly cruel to basically scare and punish the dog. Better to teach the dog not to be scared.

IMO the aversive merely masks the real problem, and can make the dog simply shut down or push it into more extreme behaviour.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> I would class it an aversive and really all it does is frighten the dog into a different behaviour IMO.
> 
> Far better to find out what is triggering the dog into the particular behaviour, and work on teaching the dog that it has no reason to react to it.
> 
> ...


I agree, aversive is better class than positive punishment. I thought it was citronella, which is positive punishment. (Names a bit misleading because theres really nothing positive about it) Guess the air would better be considered negative reinforcement and aversive.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

It's designed to work as positive punishment. Positive as in adding something the dog dislikes, punishment as in reducing the frequency of a behavior.

No, I would not use something like that. One, the way I've trained my dogs to be neutral to surprising stimuli, they probably wouldn't think anything of it to begin with. My dogs are family dogs first and foremost, and the last thing I want is for them to think surprising noises are something to be wary of. They live with two kids in a busy household, there are going to be surprises and loud noises, and weird stimuli, and I want them to take it all in stride and not stress about any of it.

Bears mentioning that therapy dogs are tested by seeing how they react to loud, surprising sounds or visual stimuli. AKC CGC test includes the same. Things like popping open an umbrella, dropping a pair of metal crutches, dropping a can full of stones etc., I've seen all these used in these tests and the dogs are expected to react minimally, if at all, and if they do react, recover right away. If you're using this sort of thing as a correction, you're effectively teaching your dog to react to this sort of stimuli.

Two, like @smokeybear said, things like this erode trust - it's one of the many pitfalls of positive punishment, and for me, just not worth it. Especially when there are so many other more effective ways of dealing with unwanted behavior. 
BTW, a professional IMHO should know these other ways of dealing with unwanted behavior and I would not be too impressed with a professional who resorted to positive punishment. Judicious use of negative punishment sure, but deliberate P+, not so much. And VS is not a professional - not a professionally trained dog trainer, at least. I give her kudos for educating herself, but she's a trained actress, not a dog trainer.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> I agree, aversive is better class than positive punishment. I thought it was citronella, which is positive punishment. (Names a bit misleading because theres really nothing positive about it) Guess the air would better be considered negative reinforcement and aversive.


No. Both the pet corrector compressed air, and citronella collars are aversive, and both are positive punishment.
The name is not misleading at all, it's the scientific terms used in learning theory. Positive means adding something. Punishment means the subsequent behavior is reduced or eliminated.

Both negative reinforcement and positive punishment require the use of something the animal wishes to avoid - an aversive. In positive punishment you add an aversive to reduce the frequency of a behavior, in negative reinforcement you remove an aversive to increase the frequency of a behavior.

And it's always the dog who decides what is aversive. Mine would not find a puff of air aversive. One would likely thing it was a new game.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

ouesi said:


> It's designed to work as positive punishment. Positive as in adding something the dog dislikes, punishment as in reducing the frequency of a behavior.
> 
> No, I would not use something like that. One, the way I've trained my dogs to be neutral to surprising stimuli, they probably wouldn't think anything of it to begin with. My dogs are family dogs first and foremost, and the last thing I want is for them to think surprising noises are something to be wary of. They live with two kids in a busy household, there are going to be surprises and loud noises, and weird stimuli, and I want them to take it all in stride and not stress about any of it.
> 
> ...


While VS is an actress as well, she began dog walking after moving to the states I think and with that began Dog training in 1999. She's trained and certified by the Animal Behavior and Training associates and is also a member of the U.S. Association of Pet Dog Trainers. (APDT) And also didn't start the television show until 2010 which gives her 11 good years to be training dogs before the show even began.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

ouesi said:


> No. Both the pet corrector compressed air, and citronella collars are aversive, and both are positive punishment.
> The name is not misleading at all, it's the scientific terms used in learning theory. Positive means adding something. Punishment means the subsequent behavior is reduced or eliminated.
> 
> Both negative reinforcement and positive punishment require the use of something the animal wishes to avoid - an aversive. In positive punishment you add an aversive to reduce the frequency of a behavior, in negative reinforcement you remove an aversive to increase the frequency of a behavior.
> ...


I was saying people may get confused by the name. I know I did before I knew the meanings.
Here's a photo I found for example on the website below. These are examples as if you came into the room and the consequences of sitting on a chair.
http://4pawsu.com/trainingmethods.htm









Personally I think it fits better with the second under negative reinforcement because it's not meant to be used on the dog physically.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

chickenfoot said:


> While VS is an actress as well, she began dog walking after moving to the states I think and with that began Dog training in 1999. She's trained and certified by the Animal Behavior and Training associates and is also a member of the U.S. Association of Pet Dog Trainers. (APDT) And also didn't start the television show until 2010 which gives her 11 good years to be training dogs before the show even began.


And Fred Hassen is a member of APDT, it doesn't mean much.
There are no requirements for membership other than your check cashing. I don't know the requirements for Animal Behavior and Training associates, so I won't comment on that.
Fact is, a good trainer will have far more tricks up their sleeve that a pet corrector. Just because a TV trainer uses one, doesn't mean it's okay or advisable.


chickenfoot said:


> Personally I think it fits better with the second under negative reinforcement because it's not meant to be used on the dog physically.


It sounds like you're still slightly confused then. Just because something isn't used on a the dog physically doesn't make it not positive punishment. Pet corrector is adding the sound and sensation of compressed air in order to reduce/eliminate a behavior. 
Adding the air = positive. Reducing behavior = punishment. 
Anything that is reinforcement strengthens behavior. Pet corrector wouldn't be reinforcement in any way unless the dog found it rewarding (which weirdo dogs like mine might). But in that case it would not be working as advertised.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

ouesi said:


> And Fred Hassen is a member of APDT, it doesn't mean much.
> There are no requirements for membership other than your check cashing. I don't know the requirements for Animal Behavior and Training associates, so I won't comment on that.
> Fact is, a good trainer will have far more tricks up their sleeve that a pet corrector. Just because a TV trainer uses one, doesn't mean it's okay or advisable.
> 
> ...


Alright well anyway either way my point is I disagree with the use of these methods.

Also if you've ever watched the show VS focuses on using positive reinforcement training and I personally think is a very good trainer with a lot of helpful tips and who I usually agree with. Nothing like say, Caesar, who I personally disagree with most of the time. Also not saying anyone should listen to one specific trainer on television, just my opinion on watching.

Also I am in no way saying because she uses it anyone should? I specifically mentioned that unless you're a trained behaviorist these shouldn't be used and either way I don't agree with using them because as I said there's other ways to train your dog by teaching basic commands (ie sit stay stop come if your dogs bolts out of the door which is where this whole VS thing came from) and incorporating that into your training instead of jumping to using things like sprays and shock.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I wouldn't recommend it because you can actually make problems worse in a lot of cases. Just as an example a quite common problem where a dog barks and lunges and even shows teeth or snarls when another dog passes, because of the behaviour the average person if asked will probably automatically say the dog is "aggressive" and doesn't like other dogs.

The real problem is that when you see this sort of behaviour a good deal of the time its not classic aggressive how people think it is. A lot of dogs will show this sort of behaviour more so on lead, the reason you often see it, is not because the dog is aggressive they are often unconfident and fearful. On a lead with a dog approaching or passing, a dog hasn't got the time or space to
avoid the situation, they cant run away or give themselves more space to weigh up the situation, they usually havent got the time to exhibit normal calming body language to defuse what they may see as a threat, so the quickest way in a small space when they are stuck is to bark, lunge, maybe even show teeth, in an effort to ward the dog off and make it go away. Its more just a display of what looks like aggression from not being confident/anxiety /or fear known more as fear aggression. The problem is usually that when they display this behaviour, the owner removes them, the other owner removes their dog, or the other owner and dog were going to pass by on the other side of the road anyway, they certainly will ensure they pass at a good distance anyway. The dog then believes that the "show" has made the dog go away, and not bother it, so to them the display has worked, what works gets repeated the next time and the next and becomes a learned behaviour but one you don't want, that's unless the problem is acted on quickly and the dogs behaviour and fear or lack of confidence that's actually causing it is dealt with properly.

A pet corrector is basically an aerosole can that emits a hiss and air, which the dog finds at least unpleasant and at worst frightens it causing more fear to a dog that is already anxious and fearful in a situation, the above is only one example.
It may appear to work because the sudden shock stops the dog, but what it can do is cause more anxiety and discomfort when the dog is in a situation which already makes it fearful and anxious. So using it then makes an already anxious or fearful situation worse and also teaches the dog (using the above example) that something even more unpleasant is going to happen/ happens when another dog approaches. So your not actually dealing with the dogs problem and the situation that makes it anxious and fearful in the first place, you can be making it worse for the dog.

That's why positive re-enforcement is so much better and often works longer term, as you are teaching the dog an alternative acceptable behaviour and a way for them to deal with a situation too usually, and by using positive re-enforcement the dog will learn to make good associations with things that may be causing the behaviour in the first place instead of bad ones.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

Sled dog hotel said:


> That's why positive re-enforcement is so much better and often works longer term, as you are teaching the dog an alternative acceptable behaviour and a way for them to deal with a situation too usually, and by using positive re-enforcement the dog will learn to make good associations with things that may be causing the behaviour in the first place instead of bad ones.


Yup...
Every time we teach a behavior, we are also conditioning an emotional response along with that behavior. Using positive reinforcement (done right) teaches a positive emotional response to the cue which can help tremendously with fear or stress based behaviors.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

chickenfoot said:


> While VS is an actress as well, she began dog walking after moving to the states I think and with that began Dog training in 1999. She's trained and certified by the Animal Behavior and Training associates and is also a member of the U.S. Association of Pet Dog Trainers. (APDT) And also didn't start the television show until 2010 which gives her 11 good years to be training dogs before the show even began.


Until quite recently, (I think 2012), Victoria Stillwell had never owned a dog.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I have very limited knowledge of training and would never presume to give advice about it.

Surely though, using a Pet Corrector is conditioning the dog to be afraid of or react negatively to noise? How can the dog be expected to know that it should fear the Corrector but not fear fireworks?

Doesn't make sense to me.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LittleHolly said:


> I'm not sure whether the noise itself from this bottle just makes the dog go 'what the hell is it that noise' taking their attention away from what their doing or whether the noise scares them.


Depends on the dog. My current one would likely try to steal it to figure out how to make it make the fantastic noise, he's fascinated by the compressed air my hubby uses to clean his keyboard.

And although it's "just" compressed air it could have a huge, huge effect on a sound sensitive dog and cause major problems.


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