# Long term Metacam usage



## lindseybayley (Oct 25, 2014)

Hi all! Im new on here (have already posted an intro in the General section and in Cat Chat!) We have a 5/6 year old rescue GSD called Kizzy! About 2 1/2 months ago she was diagnosed with Hip Dysplasia  She is on a 40kg (  ) dose of Metacam once a day and has has three Hydrotherapy sessions so far, with more to follow. However, my concern is with the Metacam. Kizzy has done really well on it so far - she no longer scuffs her hind feet along the ground on walks, she is getting up a lot easier from lying down and generally seems 'bouncier', although she has never really been a bouncy girl  She still crosses her hind legs and sometimes looks 'wobbly' but is definitely a lot better than she was. I am concerned, given that she isn't paticularly old, about the long term implications of it. Our vet is happy for her to stay on it and is keen to keep her on it as it has obviously helped. I am also finding it a tad awkward to mention other options, such as homeopathic treatments or more natural treatments as I work at the same vets so see the vet everyday and, when I have mentioned other treatments before I have been met with a negative reaction. What would you guys suggest? Carry on with the Metacam? Or does anyone have any good recommendations? I don't really want to keep her on Metacam to find in 1 or 2 years time this has caused damage to her liver/kidneys as, in my opinion, she isn't very old! But of course, if it is the only thing that benefits her than of course she will be staying on it


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Previcox is supposed to be a good alternative to Metacam - kinder to the kidneys.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I have a similar dilemma with my rottie Indie who is only 2.5 years old and has been on Rimadyl for management of her painful joints (mainly due to elbow dysplasia/arthritic changes) for over a year now, she will need to be on some form of pain relief long term at least until she undergoes joint replacement. She has gastro protectant meds 3 times a day and regular blood tests to make sure her liver/kidneys are OK. I have tried a few other options including tramadol and Yumove but nothing works as well as the NSAIDs. I don't like her having them but her quality of life is more important. 

Why not have another chat with your vet and tell them your concerns.


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## lindseybayley (Oct 25, 2014)

Thank you both for the suggestions. I'm off work this week (woohoo!!!) but am back to work on Saturday so will have a chat with our vet then. Rottiepointerhouse, I completely agree - her quality of life is far more important and it is still early days re. the metacam. I think I worry far too much! I will definatley mention my concerns again though and see what is suggested


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

It may be worth looking at Mobile Bones supplement, Ive personally had good results with it and so have a few other people Ive mentioned it too when they have tried it. Ones a collie with HD. If you want have a look at that.

Mobile Bones | Pooch & Mutt


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

My last Lab was on it for about 3 years

We tried other things before that & they all upset his tum

In the end it came down to his quality of life - he was a bouncy happy boy on the metaam so that made the decision easy for us


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2014)

I give my dog GOPO it's a rose hip supplement. She's eighteen. She tried metacam but it zonked her out. I know metacam works for others but it didn't for her. She just takes GOPO now and she's doing fine. Walks in the park every day.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Trocoxil has saved my dogs from an early grave, for without it he would surely have been PTS. He has arthritis.

If the metacam is working, I'd say stick with it.

No "alternative medicine" or suppliments can replace the likes of NSAIDs.


And homeopathy? There's nothing in it.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> Trocoxil has saved my dogs from an early grave, for without it he would surely have been PTS. He has arthritis.
> 
> If the metacam is working, I'd say stick with it.
> 
> ...


Really pleased to hear your dog is doing well on Trocoxil. The trouble is, some dogs and indeed some humans have adverse reactions to certain medications and they need to look for alternatives. To say nothing else works is a bit of a sweeping statement when clearly other people are saying that some alternative medicines and therapies have worked for them.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> Trocoxil has saved my dogs from an early grave, for without it he would surely have been PTS. He has arthritis.
> 
> If the metacam is working, I'd say stick with it.
> 
> ...


Sadly some of us have to find alternatives. I've had two rotties who had serious gastric bleeds from taking NSAIDs (my OH did too from taking them relatively short term). NSAID's are great if your dog tolerates them but what if they don't?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Not all NSAIDs cause gastric irritation. There are other proper alternative which can be prescribed by a vet ( just like humans!). Steroids could also be considered, in the event of nothing else.

I will reiterate: NO "alternative" will be as good as proper medicine. Otherwise it would be prescribed instead, wouldn't it?

If you want to spend money on alternatives AS WELL as proper prescribed medicine, well that's fine. 
But to use them INSTEAD of proper medicine when a dog is in pain, without investigating all other prescribed drugs, is inhumane. 


If a dog is in constant pain and there are no medicines which will help, then no amount of *insert name of miracle cure* will be of much help.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> Not all NSAIDs cause gastric irritation. There are other proper alternative which can be prescribed by a vet ( just like humans!). Steroids could also be considered, in the event of nothing else.
> 
> I will reiterate: NO "alternative" will be as good as proper medicine. Otherwise it would be prescribed instead, wouldn't it?
> 
> ...


Arthritis UK seems to disagree.

What are the possible side-effects of NSAIDs? Back to Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs)Possible side-effects of NSAIDs include: stomach upsets heartburn indigestion rashes headaches wheeziness fluid retention, which can cause swelling of the ankles. There's also some concern about small increases in the risk of heart attacks and strokes when NSAIDs are used for a long time. - See more at: What are the possible side-effects of NSAIDs? | Arthritis Research UK

What should I look out for?

If you develop any new symptoms you should stop taking the drug and tell your doctor or rheumatology nurse specialist as soon as possible.

NSAIDs can damage the lining of your stomach and cause bleeding, particularly if they're taken in higher doses or over a long period. You should use them with caution and only continue taking them if they're controlling your symptoms.
- See more at: What are the possible side-effects of NSAIDs? | Arthritis Research UK

What are the possible side-effects of NSAIDs? | Arthritis Research UK

If you look up the side effects from any NSAID dog or human and even the newer type ones they will list all the same possible side effects. In fact most if not all manufacturers state on the Canine ones anyway, that a blood test should be carried out prior to initiation anyway, as they cant be used with kidney, liver and a lot of other conditions, its also well known that the can cause gastric problems including stomach ulceration, perforation and bleeding.
They usually also recommend that regular monitoring blood tests are done regularly to check for any problems with organ function. Steroids can cause the same problems plus others.

While I agree that sometimes you don't have the luxury of choice and NSAIDs and even steroids are sometimes the only thing that you can use in certain conditions and illnesses as that is the only thing that will work. 
It doesn't mean either though, that you need to always rush in and dose them up for every twinge and limp that's put down to the beginnings of arthritic changes for example, and keep them forever on it, like some owners are led to believe. In some instances other things can and do work.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I was being rather simplistic in lumping all no steroidal analgesia as NSAIDs. Which, technically is not accurate.

Paracetamol is an anti inflammatory and does not cause gastric irritation.

There are others, but I'm going offline at the moment as the site is infuriatingly slow!

I'll check in later to see if it's sped up at all.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Of course not all NSAID's cause gastric irritation and not every person or dog that takes NSAID's suffers any problem as a result but the advice from professionals is usually if you have had a problem not to take any form of NSAIDs ever again. Having watched my two have a true bleed believe me its not something you would want to risk repeating.

I understand the scientific point of view that if its not been proven then it doesn't work but I do think we should trust the judgement of the owners to be able to tell whether an alternative is helping or not. As I've mentioned elsewhere I'm trialing Indie on Yumove Advance and have reduced her dose of Rimadyl but within a week I could tell she was not nearly as comfortable so put her Rimadyl back up. I will try again in a few more weeks and if the same things happen will give up. Many owners do find acupuncture for instance offers some relief and thousands of people now swear by turmeric with its anti inflammatory properties.

In my own experience which sadly has been pretty extensive now being on my 8th, 9th & 10th dogs, I've found some non drug alternatives have helped and some have not. If they don't then I don't hesitate to bring on the big guns that veterinary medicine has available even if that does ultimately reduce the lifespan of the dog but I see no harm in trying alternatives first as long as the owner is prepared to be honest in their evaluation of whether it helps or not.

Re Paracetamol/NSAIDs this explains it fairly well 
Paracetamol vs Ibuprofen: Difference Between Paracetamol and Ibuprofen


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Cox-2 inhibitors are much less likely to cause gastric irritation than other, older NSAIDs.

We're kinda going off topic, my point (same as you have said) is that because one or two anti inflammatory drugs have caused gastric irritation doesn't mean they all will and it's worth exploring all the possibilities with your vet.


My problem with "alternative" treatments (I can hear you all groaning from here!) is when people either don't even go to their vet at all, or withdraw vet treatment before all options have been explored and give inferior (at best) or useless "treatments" to their pets when there are better, evidence based treatments available from their vet.

I have known (personally) people who [email protected] about with all sorts of useless miracle cures they heard about on the internet while their poor dog got sicker and sicker. All because they thought it best their dog had "natural" treatments.

One such dog was a mass of open sores they had for months before they went to th vet for proper treatment. Turned out he had an allergy, which was relatively easily treated ( though he remained on medicated washes for the rest of his life). He was a beautiful, calm, stoic dog and deserved to see a vet long before it got to the stage of multiple open wounds.

Sorry. Don't really mean to lecture, but that particular dog haunts me as I feel I ought to have done more.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> Cox-2 inhibitors are much less likely to cause gastric irritation than other, older NSAIDs.
> 
> We're kinda going off topic, my point (same as you have said) is that because one or two anti inflammatory drugs have caused gastric irritation doesn't mean they all will and it's worth exploring all the possibilities with your vet.
> 
> ...


Your argument seems to rest purely on flimsy, anecdotal evidence and your own opinions. Nothing more.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I don't continue discussions people who are incapable of rational thought and seem intent on debasing arguments to ad hominem


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> I was being rather simplistic in lumping all no steroidal analgesia as NSAIDs. Which, technically is not accurate.
> 
> *Paracetamol* is an anti inflammatory and does not cause gastric irritation.
> 
> ...


You cant use paracetomol with dogs though as it has a toxicity same as ibuprofen too. I have heard of using a one off emergency dose of parcetomol under veterinary advice but even then the dosage is no where near what a human can tolerate.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> You cant use paracetomol with dogs though as it has a toxicity same as ibuprofen too. I have heard of using a one off emergency dose of parcetomol under veterinary advice but even then the dosage is no where near what a human can tolerate.


Yes, I know.:thumbsup:

we were talking about anti inflammatory in general.

We got a bit side tracked talking about meds for humans too.

This is so slow it's driving me nuts!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

OP. Have a chat about Cartrophen injections and hydrotherapy 
I think your vet may approve


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> Cox-2 inhibitors are much less likely to cause gastric irritation than other, older NSAIDs.
> 
> We're kinda going off topic, my point (same as you have said) is that because one or two anti inflammatory drugs have caused gastric irritation doesn't mean they all will and it's worth exploring all the possibilities with your vet.
> 
> ...


Onsior is one of the newer cox 2 inhibitors that are said to be gentler on the gut the older conventional NSAIDs

They still can cause problems and side effects and you still cant give them to dog with certain conditions.

What is the risk associated with Onsior?
The side effects of Onsior are similar to those seen with other NSAIDs. The most common side effects of the tablets and solution for injection are mild and transient effects on the stomach and gut, seen as vomiting, soft faeces and diarrhoea. In dogs, an increase in liver enzymes after long-term treatment with the tablets is common (affecting 1 to 10 animals in 100). In very rare cases, lethargy may be observed.

The solution for injection can also cause pain on injection. For a full list of all side effects reported with Onsior, see the package leaflet.

Onsior tablets must not be used in dogs or cats with existing problems affecting the stomach and gut, such as stomach ulcers or bleeding, or in dogs with liver problems. It must not be used in animals that are pregnant, nursing puppies or kittens or being used for breeding, or that are hypersensitive (allergic) to robenacoxib or any of the other ingredients. Care should be taken when treating cats or dogs with known heart or kidney problems, animals that are dehydrated and cats with liver problems. Onsior must not be used with other NSAIDs or with glucocorticosteroids.

Aboves from the Europen Medicines Agency so Im assuming the source of information will be acceptable to you.

European Medicines Agency - Veterinary medicines - Onsior


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> I don't continue discussions people who are incapable of rational thought and seem intent on debasing arguments to ad hominem


I am not directing my argument at you, I am directing my argument at the position you are maintaining, which seems to be unfailingly:

*'No "alternative medicine" or suppliments can replace the likes of NSAIDs.'* (Your words).

You also seem to maintain that NSAID's are perfectly harmless and do not cause any complications whatsoever, (in spite of evidence to the contrary). All other therapies are a waste of time as are all other supplements. and make sweeping statements such as the above with little fact to back them up.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> Cox-2 inhibitors are much less likely to cause gastric irritation than other, older NSAIDs.
> 
> We're kinda going off topic, my point (same as you have said) is that because one or two anti inflammatory drugs have caused gastric irritation doesn't mean they all will and it's worth exploring all the possibilities with your vet.
> 
> ...


Mine can't have NSAIDs again, not any kind, there's stomach irritation and there's quite suddenly and spectacularly trying to die...none of his vets will let him have them again, it's not worth the risk.

I'm not seeing an issue with using supplements alongside drugs with consultation with a vet to see if they work well enough to lower the dose or even stop them altogether.

Obviously you don't stop NSAIDs and just give supplements and hope for the best, but with veterinary care as well, it's not bad advice.



Sled dog hotel said:


> You cant use paracetomol with dogs though as it has a toxicity same as ibuprofen too. I have heard of using a one off emergency dose of parcetomol under veterinary advice but even then the dosage is no where near what a human can tolerate.


Um, Brock's been on paracetamol and codeine (among other things) for about 7 or 8 months and is likely to be on them forever.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

tabulahrasa said:


> Mine can't have NSAIDs again, not any kind, there's stomach irritation and there's quite suddenly and spectacularly trying to die...none of his vets will let him have them again, it's not worth the risk.
> 
> I'm not seeing an issue with using supplements alongside drugs with consultation with a vet to see if they work well enough to lower the dose or even stop them altogether.
> 
> ...


That's a new one on me then because everything Ive ever read or been told is the exact opposite.

It's always best to assume all human medications are poisonous to your pet, unless instructed otherwise by your veterinary surgeon. Some everyday, over the counter human medications such as paracetamol and ibuprofen are highly toxic and can lead to stomach ulceration, kidney or liver failure and death.

Human NSAIDs can be toxic to all animals, but particularly to dogs where they can cause severe and acute kidney or liver failure.
Dangers Of Human Pain Killers To Pets | Ibuprofen & Paracetamol | VetsNow

How Safe is Paracetamol for Dogs?

The above are just a couple of websites on the subject.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> That's a new one on me then because everything Ive ever read or been told is the exact opposite.
> 
> It's always best to assume all human medications are poisonous to your pet, unless instructed otherwise by your veterinary surgeon. Some everyday, over the counter human medications such as paracetamol and ibuprofen are highly toxic and can lead to stomach ulceration, kidney or liver failure and death.
> 
> ...


My dog was on them for a couple of months, (suggested by the vet), when metacam was having a bad effect. Whe had to stop the Metacam straight away and we gradually weaned her off the paracetamol when the supplements started kicking in.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I gave paracetamol to of of my dogs on the advice of a vet, though it was only I. The short term till I could get in to the surgery. I forget the details. It must have been a weekend.

Sorry, that's maybe not adding much to the discussion!


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> I gave paracetamol to of of my dogs on the advice of a vet, though it was only I. The short term till I could get in to the surgery. I forget the details. It must have been a weekend.
> 
> Sorry, that's maybe not adding much to the discussion!


I think the key thing is that it has to be *on the advice of a vet*.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> That's a new one on me then because everything Ive ever read or been told is the exact opposite.
> 
> It's always best to assume all human medications are poisonous to your pet, unless instructed otherwise by your veterinary surgeon. Some everyday, over the counter human medications such as paracetamol and ibuprofen are highly toxic and can lead to stomach ulceration, kidney or liver failure and death.
> 
> ...


Oh I know - they're on prescription from a pain specialist vet - I always thought dogs couldn't tolerate it at all, but it turns out there is a dosage that's ok, they are not the same strength as the ones people are given though.

I wasn't offering them as an alternative you could give yourself, they're not as effective as NSAIDs anyway, but they are an option vets can use if NSAIDs aren't reccomended.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Dina karen said:


> I think the key thing is that it has to be *on the advice of a vet*.


:thumbsup:

Well spotted! That's exactly what we're talking about!


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

My girl has been on Metacam for around 12 months to treat Arthritis pain, with no visible side effects. It works.

To be fair, she is getting on so long term side effects (liver etc) weren't so much of an issue. Even so I did a fair amount of research & found that Liver damage is quite rare & that gastrointestinal problems were more common with easily indentified symptoms.


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## lindseybayley (Oct 25, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies everyone, it has given me food for thought  I'll have a chat with our vet on Monday about the Catrophen Injections too - I know it has worked wonders for a few of our clients. Kizzy has had no obvious upset tummy or vomiting so we will probably keep up with the Metacam and Hydrotherapy, it's just nice to know of alternatives (medicinal/natural etc.) Like I said in the OP I think i'm just worrying over it too much  As long as she is comfortable that is the main thing - we will just have to keep up with the 6 monthly blood tests to make sure all is OK! 

ETA: sorry it has taken so long to reply, my laptop would't let me onto petforums.co.uk but i' back now!


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

BlackadderUK said:


> My girl has been on Metacam for around 12 months to treat Arthritis pain, with no visible side effects. It works.
> 
> To be fair, she is getting on so long term side effects (liver etc) weren't so much of an issue. Even so I did a fair amount of research & found that Liver damage is quite rare & that gastrointestinal problems were more common *with easily indentified symptoms*.


Unless...you have a dog with food intolerances and on other painkillers for a different condition as well that mask other things and then presents atypically for a perforated ulcer - 3 vets he'd seen before they worked out that's what was going on.

But yes it's stomach upsets you really need to be looking out for, my advice would be if you're getting recurrent stomach issues...even if you think it's something else, go to the vet and make sure it's not the Metacam doing it.


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