# is my cat pregnant?



## amberpearl66 (Jan 11, 2010)

hello, im just not sure, i have a curly selkirk rex girl aged 20 months, ive had her 15 months, 12months ago i bought a male rex for her, but nothing happened, now after over a year ithink she may be pregnant, 2 days ago when she was on sofa, i noticed all her nipples were enlarged and very pink, and her belly looks fat, it sways from side to side, she seems to be asking for more food too, always after something when igotothe kitchen, could she be pregnant? im not sure how far along. the male rex is 15 month old. not sure waht to do next


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Yes, definately sounds like she's pregnant. Can you remember when she called last?

I'd change her (slowly over a few days) onto a good quality kitten food to ensure she's getting enough calories to meet her needs and the needs of the growing kittens and start thinking of preparing a birthing box she could settle in to give birth when the time comes.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

amberpearl66 said:


> not sure waht to do next


Start reading as much as you possibly can about cat pregnancy and birth etc. If both your cats are registered pedigrees, have you gone back to their breeders for advice. If you have never had a litter before, they would be the best point of contact for you.


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## amberpearl66 (Jan 11, 2010)

yes there both pedigrees selkirk rex, from different breeders. i havent heard her call in months. the male has been after her pretty much all the time regardless if she calls or not. she has attacked him on numerous occasions, she was most interested in him duirng summer, when she did call. i thought one ofthem was infertile, as id had them over a year and nothing happened.
im not sure how many weeks she is, she was not showing at xmas, i just noticed her nipples and bigger belly 2 days ago
is there anyway to know how far along she is? i have a covered cat bed. all my cats are indoor cats. would i need to keep the male away when she has kittens? do i need to take her to a vet? she is fed whiskers and gocat biscuits, plus always after ham and cheese!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Is the girl on the GCCF active register? If so the breeder should be very willing (indeed eager) to help you - assuming that the boy is also on the active. If she's not, or if she is but the boy isn't, you are about to make yourself extremely unpopular!

But yes, she is highly likely to be pregnant. It is entirely possible not to actually notice if she lives with the boy.

I find they normally become visibly pregnant somewhere between 4 and 5 weeks. There's not a lot of point in going to the vet, all they will tell you (from about 3 weeks) is whether or not she is pregnant, they seem unable to tell how far along.

Liz


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Are they both on the active register then ? As I said before, speaking directly to someone you already know - like one of the breeders you purchased your cats from, would be the best source of information.

If her teats are pink and you can see a slight belly, then she is defintely more than 3 weeks gone, other than that, unless you know when they mated, its going to be a guessing game.


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## amberpearl66 (Jan 11, 2010)

she is registered on gccf but her papers say non active reg. he is not registered breeder said not enough time. id like to register him, but do not know how to go about it. 
she def has an obvious bulge and very large pink nipples, bit why has it taken over a year for this to happen? id like to keep them all, bit hubby says no.
any idea how many kittens there would be? she is healthy, and a red colour point the male is black


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

just a question - but if you bought her on the non active why are you breeding from her? Why not do it properly and breed cats whose kittens can be registered and be 'proper' pedigrees? 

colour wise - you are going to get tortie girls and red or black boys.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I can see your reluctance to go back to the breeders now. There is little point in registering your boy, if your girl is on the non active register and her breeder refuses to transfer over to the active for you. You will not be able to register the kittens.

No black boys - they will all be red (or cream if both carry dilute)


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

O boy.

A pedigree cat should be registered - if it's just a matter of time (papers still with the GCCF - that happens, certainly was happening a lot at the time you would have bought the boy) you can go back and ask for them. Is it a Selkirk boy? However, you won't be able to register the kittens anyway, to do that you need to have BOTH parents on the active register (or one parent, with the other declared simply as "unknown" and no reference to the breed of the kittens, which is of little practical use).

It is JUST possible (but not very likely) that if you approach the breeder of the girl and tell her what you have done, if you also manage to get the boy's papers (which is multiplying the "ifs"), that you could persuade the breeder to change the cat to the active register, some breeders might do that rather than have you breeding unregistered Selkirks. But I wouldn't be very hopeful!

The bottom line is that cats registered on the non-active register should not be bred from. It is unlikely that there is anything wrong with the cat, it is just very common (like, almost universal) practice for breeders to register kittens on the non-active register unless the buyer has specifically made it clear they want to breed and the breeder approves.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I suppose you *could* contact each Breeder but be prepared to to pay them for changing to the active register or they may just be very peed off (with you and say no.

How many kittens would there be? *could be 1, could be 9, 10, 11 even 12. I think the 12 was with HCG though. * My girls first litter was 6. Then one died (that also happens sometimes).

Should I keep the male away from kittens? *I would, until they are older*.

If you bought him for her you really should have started reading then but just start reading LOTS now.

Go to you.tube watch a few births.

Best of luck to you.

Start by reading the stickies at the top of this page. Very informative.


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## amberpearl66 (Jan 11, 2010)

i do not understand why my girl was put on non active reg or why the boy wsnt registered. iknow since i got my girl the breeder has had more kittens, and has shown them and put them on active reg. do i need permission to put her on active reg? yes they are both purebred selkirk rex she is curly he is shorthaired, i have his sister too, she is long haired, but i got her spayedin case he tried to mate his sister. i do not know much about the gccf. my girl had a very stupid name, and a huge pedigree, i have her papers, but got none for the boy and his sister. why do some breeders reg some cats but not others? can i still registerthem all now? i thought about showing the, but would not kno where to start.
not sure what colour the kittens would be, or if id get curly or straight, wouldnt i get some black?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I would go back to the breeder of your girl and talk over the whole situation with them - see what they say.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

You cannot register a cat/kitten without the breeders permission, nor can you change a non active to active without her permission either. You will probably have to pay the difference between non active and active price if the breeder will let you do it in the first place. 
I am presuming you got both as pets so the fact you are breeding them will not go down well with either breeder.
You will need to tread very carefully when you speak to the girl's breeder and try and get her on your side. She will probably be angry that you attempted to breed from a cat that is on the non-active in the first place, so try and keep it friendly. There is no point in getting aggressive and demanding anything as the ball is firmly in her court. It is the same with the "unregistered" boys breeder, they are in complete control and if he/she will not or cannot register the litter then there is nothing you can do about it.

You need to sort out the pedigrees of both cats too, just because you got them from different breeders doesn't necessarily mean they are unrelated.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

OK, I am going to have a rant!

The GCCF registers cats both on the active and non-active registers. Active register means for breeding, non-active means not for breeding. When selling kittens, breeders are supposed to supply a copy of the GCCF code of ethics which specifically states that non-active register cats must not be bred from. They must also draw the attention of the buyer to the fact that the cat is on the non-active register and explain what that means. If the seller failed to do either of these things then she is partly to blame for you not realising that you should not be breeding from this cat.

However you will have had a transfer form (pink or blue) and that will clearly say that the cat is on the non-active register and no progeny will be registered. So that should have made it clear to you that you should not be breeding from this cat and so you too are partly to blame.

That said, it is only reasonable to expect a breeder to know far more than a new owner, especially an owner new to pedigree cats, and therefore it seems to me that the breeder needs to make it very clear, verbally and in writing, that the cat is not to be bred from. For a new owner, there is a lot to think about and it is hardly surprising that people will misunderstand or get things wrong. Many breeders say "pet only" in their adverts but I think a lot of buyers do not realise that "pet only" means "not for breeding" since, after all, people do have kittens from their pet cats!

Speaking personally, it seems to me that if any breeder is really keen that the cat should not be bred from, the best solution by far is to find a vet who will do early neutering and make sure the kittens are neutered before sale, that solves the problem! I myself don't do that because (at the risk of sounding totally pathetic) I am very squeamish about neutering and I hate doing it at all, so I'm certainly not going to do it more often than I really have to, but the plain fact remains that it does solve the problem.

Also speaking personally (and from experience) if someone is going to breed from one of my cats I would far rather know about it! I want to know about any kittens produced by one of "my" cats, I want them to have proper pedigree names and be registered. For this reason I do not make it at all difficult for people and would certainly change the registration in a case like this. I suspect though that I am in a tiny minority and that most breeders would be very upset that you were breeding from a cat they sold as a pet. 

There is someone near me who regularly breeds from a boy she bought from me as a pet at a very low price. As soon as I found out she was breeding from him I offered to sort the registration out but she refused (her girl is not registered so I guess there would be no advantage in having the boy on the active register but I wasn't asking her to pay for it!). I am far more offended by the fact that she continues to breed unregisterable kittens, and sells them unvaccinated for about five times what she paid for the boy, than I am by the simple fact that she is breeding from him.

As to why the default position with most breeders is the non-active register, that is an interesting one. There are some cases where a breeder might be happy for someone to have a pet kitten but not to breed (for example, person working long hours with no-one else at home, or small children in the house) but in most cases it seems to me that it is about keeping people out rather than welcoming them in. Personally I'd rather welcome them in - if they are only in it for the (imagined) money they won't last long!

Cue the red blobs!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> You cannot register a cat/kitten without the breeders permission


Yes you can. If a breeder sells a pedigree kitten unregistered she is required to supply the pedigree and a mating certificate. The buyer can then register the kitten on either register. Of course in practice most people who sell a kitten unregistered are doing so because the kitten is in fact unregisterable. But if by any chance the OP has the pedigree and the mating certificate, she can indeed register the cats as long as the breeder has not already done so. But it won't help in this case because the girl is on the non-active.

Liz


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## amberpearl66 (Jan 11, 2010)

i know where the breeder of my girl is, they have a website, and always seem to have kittens available, there in crewe, but the boy, i not sure if the breeder has a website, as they were advertised on pets4homes. when i went to see them, they had 22 cats in pens outside. i dont approve of cats outside, all mine would be indoors. they in boston, his dad was a lovely red longhaired curly rex and his mum a shorhaired tortie


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

22 cats outside in pens & not registering them? That sounds a tad suspicious to me. I don't think you could get your papers but I am being a bit judgemental in this.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

lizward said:


> Yes you can. If a breeder sells a pedigree kitten unregistered she is required to supply the pedigree and a mating certificate. The buyer can then register the kitten on either register. Of course in practice most people who sell a kitten unregistered are doing so because the kitten is in fact unregisterable. But if by any chance the OP has the pedigree and the mating certificate, she can indeed register the cats as long as the breeder has not already done so. But it won't help in this case because the girl is on the non-active.
> 
> Liz


If the breeder of the unregistered boy doesn't want to register him then she is unlikely to give the OP his pedigree nor his mating certificate.


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## amberpearl66 (Jan 11, 2010)

yes 22 cats outside, i dont know if any of those were registered, just that my boy and his sister were not, all i got with them was a hand written piece of paper,from them and apparantly their vet, saying what vaccines they had and what food they like. iwas told their pc was broke, thatswhy itwas handwritten, she also said that its impossible to breed from the male, i didnt think anything of it at the time, but isnt it odd to say that? he is def rex, i saw his parents, he def entire,so of course he can breed. does not make alot of sense. she also bred british shorthairs and dogs and horses.
as for the owner ofthe girl, idid get pedigree and papers and itdid say progeny not to be registered. i just dnt undertsand why not? my thoughts was because they only care about money and dont want competition. 
i changed her name, as she has a silly reg name. she is the spitting image of her dad


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

99% of kittens are not to be bred from. Usually to stop poor quality kittens breeding out all the standards. If you wanted to breed & told the breeder I am sure she would have told you who had a kitten of that quality or suggested one of her own kittens that would be better suited.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> If the breeder of the unregistered boy doesn't want to register him then she is unlikely to give the OP his pedigree nor his mating certificate.


O yes, that is perfectly true - it is a longshot, to say the least.

Liz


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## amberpearl66 (Jan 11, 2010)

my girl is healthy and looks good quality to me and so is the boy, he went to vets last week for his vaccines and was told how good he looks


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

amberpearl66 said:


> yes 22 cats outside, i dont know if any of those were registered, just that my boy and his sister were not, all i got with them was a hand written piece of paper,from them and apparantly their vet, saying what vaccines they had and what food they like. iwas told their pc was broke, thatswhy itwas handwritten, she also said that its impossible to breed from the male, i didnt think anything of it at the time, but isnt it odd to say that?


She just meant that he is unregistered and that she could not or would not provide the necessary papers to register him. I'm afraid she is what is called a back yard breeder. It's not impossible to breed from him, it is impossible to register the kittens.



> as for the owner ofthe girl, idid get pedigree and papers and itdid say progeny not to be registered. i just dnt undertsand why not? my thoughts was because they only care about money and dont want competition.


It might be a matter of money, if this breeder charges significantly more for active register cats. More likely it is about not wanting to let the cat go to a breeder - sometimes people do this because they are nervous about trusting a new breeder, sometimes it is a condition imposed on them by the owner of the stud they used, sometimes it is simply a new breeder not feeling confident or knowledgeable enough to support another new breeder, because a breeder who sells an active register cat needs to support the buyer when that buyer starts breeding.

You should not have bred from that cat, and when the breeder finds out you may find yourself getting a nasty phone call / email. There's nothing you can do about it now though, you will simply have to ride it out. There might be some mileage in getting in touch with that breeder now (because you have said where she lives, and it is a small breed, she will know!) and apologising, explaining that you didn't understand (if indeed you didn't). But that is a decision only you can make.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

amberpearl66 said:


> my girl is healthy and looks good quality to me and so is the boy, he went to vets last week for his vaccines and was told how good he looks


"Quality" in this context refers to how closely he matches the breed standard.

Liz


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## amberpearl66 (Jan 11, 2010)

how can the breeder of the girl know my cat is having kittens if i dont tell her? and if i did, doed it really matter? i doing this for love, not money, ithinkmthe breeders that lock the outside are in it for money, not love. i presumed the boys breeder was registered, i have been unable to find any website or info on them though, i paid £330 for the male and his sister, apparantly there was another kitten that died.
if im not allowed to reg the girl how can the breeder find out? plus i not using the name on her papers. the girls pedigree has won many awards etcand goes back 5 generationson the paperwork


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

amberpearl66 said:


> how can the breeder of the girl know my cat is having kittens if i dont tell her?


Because you have said it loud and clear on this site!



> and if i did, doed it really matter?


Well that depends on what you mean by "matter". If you mean, can she do anything about it, the answer is no.



> i presumed the boys breeder was registered, i have been unable to find any website or info on them though, i paid £330 for the male and his sister


That (if you mean £330 for the two) is about half the price of the cheapest registered pedigree, so at least you were not overcharged.



> if im not allowed to reg the girl how can the breeder find out?


Well, before the days of the internet, she probably wouldn't ...

Liz


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## amberpearl66 (Jan 11, 2010)

incidently, i bought a ragdoll kitten from a breeder in doncaster,the ad wason pets4homes, no website, iwas never asked about my home life or if i have any other pets or what iintendto do with him. the kittens were outside in a shed and she just said pick one up give me £150 and he s yours. i never got kitten pack or 6 weeks insurance orany paperwork like i did with the girl rex, the ragdoll male has no paperwork. i dt think any of her ragdolls are registered, is she what you call a backyard breeder? my girl was £300 and wastold that was a reduced price as she was 6 months old!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

amberpearl66 said:


> incidently, i bought a ragdoll kitten from a breeder in doncaster,the ad wason pets4homes, no website, iwas never asked about my home life or if i have any other pets or what iintendto do with him. the kittens were outside in a shed and she just said pick one up give me £150 and he s yours. i never got kitten pack or 6 weeks insurance orany paperwork like i did with the girl rex, the ragdoll male has no paperwork. i dt think any of her ragdolls are registered, is she what you call a backyard breeder?


Yes



> my girl was £300 and wastold that was a reduced price as she was 6 months old!


That sounds more like it - I would expect Selkirks to be more than that at the usual 13 weeks.

So is the ragdoll a male or female - or to put it another way, are you sure the kittens will be selkirks?

Liz


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## amberpearl66 (Jan 11, 2010)

the ragdoll is male and ive only had him 9 days and the girl is maybe 4 weeks pregnant so yes def selkirks. my ragdoll is 16 weeks so doubt he fertile yet.
the breeder may not even come on this site


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

amberpearl66 said:


> the breeder may not even come on this site


That's true but the cat fancy is quite close knit - everyone knows everyone else - well almost, I have no idea who your breeder is.

Liz


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

amberpearl66 said:


> the ragdoll is male and ive only had him 9 days and the girl is maybe 4 weeks pregnant so yes def selkirks. my ragdoll is 16 weeks so doubt he fertile yet.
> the breeder may not even come on this site


Maybe not but like Liz said the cat fancy is a very close world and chances are that someone either on here or maybe another person who knows about the kittens may well tell them.

I must say if I found out it was one of my kittens I would be FUMING!!

I am actually looking into early neutering to prevent this happening.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

amberpearl66
I see that you are offering your unregistered rex cat's stud services on another thread to a potential moggie breeder.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/81240-finding-unspayed-tom.html#post1291454


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Amberpearl how many cats do you have??

You mention 3 rex cats, a NFC that sadly passed away, a Ragdoll and now 2 Bengal/Burmese mixes?

I make that 7, and it seems like most of these are un-neutered.

I am sorry but I see that as no better than the person with handreds of cats locked in sheds.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

The Bengal / Burmese are someone else's aren't they - the OP on that other thread?

Liz


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

lizward said:


> The Bengal / Burmese are someone else's aren't they - the OP on that other thread?
> 
> Liz


Sorry yes you are right, getting mixed up, apologies to Amberpearl!


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## beardsmith (Jan 11, 2010)

I am the breeder of the girl.She was not sold for breeding and this was made perfectly clear to you at the time of sale.
I only sell kittens for breeding to people I know or people that have been reccommended to me.
I do sometimes sell to novice breeders but only when I have got to know them and feel they understand fully what it entails.
As for your comment about lots of kittens on my website you are mistaken.I have had 3 litters this year.
I DO NOT DO IT FOR THE MONEY as any reputable breeder will tell you you donot make any money if you do it properly!!!!
YOU PAID £195 for the girl and you assured me she would be speyed after she had settled in.
As somebody else has said I cannot do anything about it but you cannot register the kittens.
I will buy the girl back for the money you paid for her as I never intended her to have kittens.
I am very concerned that you have un neutered cats running together and feel that you appear to be unaware of what breeding entails
ONCE AGAIN I AM PREPARED TO BUY THE GIRL BACK


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

amberpearl66 said:


> i doing this for love, not money,


Thats good because you should prepare yourself for a possible emergency visit to the vets for a caesar at midnight - out of hours cost on top of the normal £300 - £400 for the op - a Mum that can not feed her kittens that you either have to watch die one by one because you have no idea how to feed them properly, or if you can 4 weeks + of 2hrly feeds day and night..........With pedigree cats its really not as simple as letting 2 cats have sex.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

wow cant believe u did this when u were asked to spay the queen!! u obviously have no idea what ur doing either!!! poor cat


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

beardsmith said:


> I am the breeder of the girl.She was not sold for breeding and this was made perfectly clear to you at the time of sale.
> I only sell kittens for breeding to people I know or people that have been reccommended to me.
> I do sometimes sell to novice breeders but only when I have got to know them and feel they understand fully what it entails.
> As for your comment about lots of kittens on my website you are mistaken.I have had 3 litters this year.
> ...


i hope she gives u her back sorry to hear about this


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

It sounds as if the OP doesn't have any excuse.

Liz


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

beardsmith said:


> I am the breeder of the girl.She was not sold for breeding and this was made perfectly clear to you at the time of sale.
> I only sell kittens for breeding to people I know or people that have been reccommended to me.
> I do sometimes sell to novice breeders but only when I have got to know them and feel they understand fully what it entails.
> As for your comment about lots of kittens on my website you are mistaken.I have had 3 litters this year.
> ...


I for one certainly hope you get the cat back, I was disgusted that they have un-neutered cats of opposite sexes and different breeds in the house, that poor girl will end up pregnant her whole life.


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## anniem (Jan 11, 2010)

Saikou said:


> Thats good because you should prepare yourself for a possible emergency visit to the vets for a caesar at midnight - out of hours cost on top of the normal £300 - £400 for the op - a Mum that can not feed her kittens that you either have to watch die one by one because you have no idea how to feed them properly, or if you can 4 weeks + of 2hrly feeds day and night..........With pedigree cats its really not as simple as letting 2 cats have sex.


 In addition to the above a cat that will be terrified as a first time mum, kittens getting stuck on birth, kittens that will die if its a mixed blood group mating ,

I think in your shoes I would take up the breeders offer and return the cat to spare yourself some horrendous heaertache and bills and think if you want to breed about joining a group to get advice on all the preparation needed before a cat breeds and also some one to advise when you hit all the potential problems with first time mums which can be soul destroying when things go wrong and they can and go very very badly wrong resulting in lossing not only the kittens but the mum as well


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

beardsmith said:


> I am the breeder of the girl.She was not sold for breeding and this was made perfectly clear to you at the time of sale.
> I only sell kittens for breeding to people I know or people that have been reccommended to me.
> I do sometimes sell to novice breeders but only when I have got to know them and feel they understand fully what it entails.
> As for your comment about lots of kittens on my website you are mistaken.I have had 3 litters this year.
> ...


Do you have her address ? I would take her back.

I have to say though I am not the best person to answer this thread as I did this with Misty, since then I have had nothing but trouble with her and have learned from my mistakes.

She cannot eat anything without having scoots and is not a well girl. She is just about to start a course of steroids which she will have to take for the rest of her life.

I don't know if she was bred too closely but if I could go back I would have had her spayed at 5/6 months.

I don't mean a little bit of scoots I am talking *EVERY *poo, she is also skin and bone and completely ravenous at all times and I am thoroughly ashamed of that. Poor girl. Never should have been bred from, she didn't have scoots prior to this.

She also looks twice her age, her tail is going grey and she has grey hairs on her little face.

Once again I admit, she should never have had kittens. the only way I feel a little better is that I am on the right track now and all my cats will be GCCF registered and * assessed for breeding, before I buy.*

Fingers crossed steroids will help.

Regarding this girl, give her back if BeardSmith is the RL breeder and not a troll that is.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mellowma said:


> Do you have her address ? I would take her back.


Tempting perhaps, but VERY dodgy legally unless you have an absolutley cast-iron contract. Not to mention the fact that you have to have a court order and send the bailiffs round unless the person will just let you in.



> She cannot eat anything without having scoots and is not a well girl. She is just about to start a course of steroids which she will have to take for the rest of her life.
> 
> I don't know if she was bred too closely but if I could go back I would have had her spayed at 5/6 months.
> 
> I don't mean a little bit of scoots I am talking *EVERY *poo, she is also skin and bone and completely ravenous at all times and I am thoroughly ashamed of that. Poor girl. Never should have been bred from, she didn't have scoots prior to this.


This can't be from breeding her I am sure so please don't feel too badly - besides which, if I remember rightly, weren't you "done" by a BYB? Regarding your poor cat, what investigations have been done? There has to be something wrong.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

lizward said:


> Tempting perhaps, but VERY dodgy legally unless you have an absolutley cast-iron contract. Not to mention the fact that you have to have a court order and send the bailiffs round unless the person will just let you in.
> 
> *Yes I suppose with Oscar it was different I just kind-of Barged in! :blush2: That was a happy ending though.*
> 
> ...


My Vet has said he has tested her for everything he can and has put it down to IBS, we have been through around 4/5 different dry foods some veterinary some not but she still has terrible scoots.

They are a tad better when I bought some Hills I/D from VioVet but still not a proper colour/texture poo.

Vet advised steriods is the next route to take, other than that i just hope it isn't something more sever. She runs around and plays with Poppy so isn't lying lethargic but she just cannot eat *anything* which is very sad.

She actually did have scoots when we first got her but gave her Royal Canin and it seemed to disappear, then she had the kittens and since then no foods have worked, I have tried slippery elm bark in food, pumpkin, turnip, pro-biotics every few days but I feel she detests me as I have to squeeze her cheeks to do this.

The only time she done a solid poo was after a particularly bad spout (all over kitchen floor + sickness) she was given an antibiotic injection and she done 1 solid normal coloured poo. (Sorry if TMI).

I wonder if it something else. It's very strange her turning grey these last few months. I know ragdolls colours develop over the years but she is only around erm.... 2 and half years old and I am not sure this colour is supposed to be on her at all. I don't even know if she is a real ragdoll to be honest. Looking at poppy and other ragdolls, she is so tiny.

I think I am scared it may be something very bad hence my fears for more tests, although he hasn't offered as he said the last set covered everything.

He only meant, virally though.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amberpearl I have just tried to send you a PM saying roughly this:

At the end of the day, yes you have done wrong and the breeder has the right to be angry, but the concern now needs to be for your cat and her precious cargo. Everyone else, this is a new breeder. Whatever the circumstances - and I fully agree she should not have done this - she now needs advice and it is possible that she may need more advice and maybe even practical help around the time of the birth. Chances are all will go smoothly, but if it doesn't, advice from experienced breeders could make a big difference.

If Amber does not give the cat back and if the breeder is too angry to have any further dealings with her (and none of us will blame the breeder for feeling like that), amber still needs to have somewhere other than the vet where she can turn for advice, perhaps in the early hours of the morning if she needs to. Let's not drive her away please, for the sake of the cat and the kittens.

Amber, if you need advice nearer the time, you are wlecome to get in touch with me. My email address is [email protected] and if you need advice I will try hard to say no more about the background to this.

We need to help now, there are little lives at stake!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Mellowma - at the risk of sounding as if I am jumping on a fashionable bandwagon - have you tried raw food at all? I ask because it has worked like magic for my Mau. Though admittedly my Mau was not ill at all apart from the chronic diarrhoea.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

lizward said:


> Amberpearl I have just tried to send you a PM saying roughly this:
> 
> At the end of the day, yes you have done wrong and the breeder has the right to be angry, but the concern now needs to be for your cat and her precious cargo. Everyone else, this is a new breeder. Whatever the circumstances - and I fully agree she should not have done this - she now needs advice and it is possible that she may need more advice and maybe even practical help around the time of the birth. Chances are all will go smoothly, but if it doesn't, advice from experienced breeders could make a big difference.
> 
> ...


That's nice. How it should be, it is very difficult as people are just so passionate about their cats. I know I would be a tad angry if someone bred from one of mine when we do eventually have some, well Poppy not me but you know...... its done now though, as I said before *read all the stickies at the top of the page. Very very useful. *



lizward said:


> Mellowma - at the risk of sounding as if I am jumping on a fashionable bandwagon - have you tried raw food at all? I ask because it has worked like magic for my Mau. Though admittedly my Mau was not ill at all apart from the chronic diarrhoea.
> 
> Liz


Yes, I tried it, admittedly only for a wekk but it went down the same as anything else, went right through her, if she eats a bit a of chicken/boiled/raw/fish/any wet food, 10 -20 mins later her tummy makes noises and off she trots again. I am very envious of people why try raw and it works, I was sure it would for her. 

I might try it again. I am very worried about her weight at the moment.


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## beardsmith (Jan 11, 2010)

Amber pearl I cannot send a private message has I have not posted enough.
The girl is a B bloodgroup as both parents are tested.If your boy is A you could potentially loose some or all of the kittens due to mis matched bloodgroup.
This can be overcome by taking the kittens away from the girl and feeding them yourself for 24 hours. I have done this quite a few times in my 15 years of breeding it is not easy especially if you haven.t done it before.
For the sake of the girl and the kittens please let me have her back.
To check the boys blood group take him to the vets and have him tested and then if he is a B evrything will be fine but if he is an A you will loose some if not all of the kittens.


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## anniem (Jan 11, 2010)

lizward said:


> Amberpearl I have just tried to send you a PM saying roughly this:
> 
> At the end of the day, yes you have done wrong and the breeder has the right to be angry, but the concern now needs to be for your cat and her precious cargo. Everyone else, this is a new breeder. Whatever the circumstances - and I fully agree she should not have done this - she now needs advice and it is possible that she may need more advice and maybe even practical help around the time of the birth. Chances are all will go smoothly, but if it doesn't, advice from experienced breeders could make a big difference.
> 
> ...


I dont think the breeder is angry- Just very concerned for her girl which from the posts was sold in good faith as a pet with expectation of spaying, once settled. Im sure if it was known at the time the cat would not be spayed but running around with other unneutered males of different breeds the cat would not have gone- The breeder is rightly concerned for her girl and as such has offered to buy her back but not angily - Most selkirks are blood group A and this is likely to be a mismatched blood group mating if the girl is B which the minority are so a very heartbreaking loss for a novice who wont know what to do.

If Amber wants to breed she should do it right making sure all males of different breeds are neutered or kept separately and make sure her girl is fed properly and she will now need to know exactly when the kittens are due so will need to visit a vet as with a blood mismatch kittens mustnt feed from mum for 1st 16 to 24 hours .

Im sure everyone here has the cats interests at heart and if Amber has done it for love not money, which she has said she, should return the girl, for love, to the breeder who knows what she is doing regard to mismatched blood matings


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> where she can turn for advice, perhaps in the early hours of the morning if she needs to. Let's not drive her away please, for the sake of the cat and the kittens.
> 
> Amber, if you need advice nearer the time, you are wlecome to get in touch with me. My email address is [email protected] and if you need advice I will try hard to say no more about the background to this.
> 
> We need to help now, there are little lives at stake!



A very noble sentiment, but when does the OP start to take responsibility for her actions ? This isn't an unfortunate mistake, the OP bought a boy especially to mate with the queen. Surely if you go to all that bother, the very least you should do is take responsibility for making sure you know what to expect in the way of pregnancy, birth and kitten care, before the deed is done - if you are truely doing it for love.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

beardsmith said:


> Amber pearl I cannot send a private message has I have not posted enough.


Amberpearl is not accepting PMs unfortunately - I tried.



> The girl is a B bloodgroup as both parents are tested.If your boy is A you could potentially loose some or all of the kittens due to mis matched bloodgroup.
> This can be overcome by taking the kittens away from the girl and feeding them yourself for 24 hours. I have done this quite a few times in my 15 years of breeding it is not easy especially if you haven.t done it before.
> For the sake of the girl and the kittens please let me have her back.
> To check the boys blood group take him to the vets and have him tested and then if he is a B evrything will be fine but if he is an A you will loose some if not all of the kittens.


Amberpearl, you need to take note of this. Please get the boy bloodtyped. It's horrible losing kittens :nonod:

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Saikou said:


> A very noble sentiment, but when does the OP start to take responsibility for her actions ? This isn't an unfortunate mistake, the OP bought a boy especially to mate with the queen. Surely if you go to all that bother, the very least you should do is take responsibility for making sure you know what to expect in the way of pregnancy, birth and kitten care, before the deed is done - if you are truely doing it for love.


Well, she needs to take responsibility now, that's for sure - or let the girl go to someone who will. It is now clear that there is a high chance of blood group incompatibility 

Liz


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Feline Blood Groups

Amberpearl PLEASE read the info on the link, the other posters on this thread are absolutely correct that if you breed cats that come from these genetic back grounds without testing for blood type you could have a tragedy on your hands.
They are telling you for the good of the girl and for the kittens.

You have gone ahead against advice with this mating, and haven't even educated yourself about how to care for your cat while she's pregnat.  The info is freely available, you have internet, you only have to search.

Please please check the blood type of the male.

Please please think about what you are doing. You bred these cats in ignorance. Who are you going to sell any kittens to? Will they be breeding too? Will they be like you and decide to put cats together without learning about the hows and whys first?

Breeders are protective of their kittens and use the inactive register precisely because of this situation. You have put your Queen at risk by not educating yourself, and there is a very real possibility of losing the kittens. If they survive and you sell them on, then the blood incompatibility potential will still be there, and an educated aware breeder will not be buying unregistered kittens, they will only go to people like yourself, and if they also have not learnt about their cats then it could happen over and over again.

Breeding is a serious responsibility, please think about what you are doing.

You have offered the boy to stud, and you have no idea what his blood group is or how that could affect a future mating, you could land someone else with a litter of dead kittens


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

anniem said:


> Im sure everyone here has the cats interests at heart and if Amber has done it for love not money, which she has said she, should return the girl, for love, to the breeder who knows what she is doing regard to mismatched blood matings


I agree, this is not at all a good situation for a first time breeder to cope with. My concern now is that Amber may not be reading the forum any more and will not know about this incompatibility :nonod:

Liz


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

If thats the case, i'm hoping the breeder of the girl still has ambers contact details and could let her know about the potential dangers lying ahead. What a sad situation for all concerned, especially the poor queen.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Hopefully if Amber is reading she will see about the blood types, I think/hope she will be reading. What a nightmare situation.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

It looks as though she has changed her profile to hide her online status - you can see the activity bar for people that haven't. If that is the case, I would say she is still reading, if she was going to just leave she wouldn't have bothered doing that. Hopefully the message re blood types has got through.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

mellowma said:


> She cannot eat anything without having scoots and is not a well girl. She is just about to start a course of steroids which she will have to take for the rest of her life.
> 
> I don't know if she was bred too closely but if I could go back I would have had her spayed at 5/6 months.
> 
> ...


Get her tested for TF - get your vet to do the PCR test, if it hasn't been already done.
See
http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/docs/documents/ownersguide_tfoetus_revised_120909.pdf
and
Tritrichomonas foetus infection in cats
TF is a common cause of unresponsive diarrhoea in cats.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Ok everyone, I have had an email from Amber. She says the boy has been blood tested and is type B, also that he will now be neutered.

Liz


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> Ok everyone, I have had an email from Amber. She says the boy has been blood tested and is type B, also that he will now be neutered.
> 
> Liz


I really hope that is true but with my cynical head on and knowing where she probably got the boy from and the lines behind him, if he is a B blood group she has been very lucky.

I hope the girl and kittens come through the rest of the pregnancy and delivery safely. I really feel for the breeder in all of this - how awful to have been deceived in such a way.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Soupie said:


> I really hope that is true but with my cynical head on and knowing where she probably got the boy from and the lines behind him, if he is a B blood group she has been very lucky.


Well, one thing is sure, at least we now know she has read the thread and is well aware that blood type is an issue in this breed.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Get her tested for TF - get your vet to do the PCR test, if it hasn't been already done.
> See
> http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/docs/documents/ownersguide_tfoetus_revised_120909.pdf
> and
> ...


Sorry to keep taking over the thread. I asked if she had been tested for this and Vet said she had, although he did look a tad vague when I first mentioned it, he assured me this would have shown up in tests she had had done and we have sent a stool sample.

It's good Amber seen the thread and the boy is B. Although I am tad cynical also.

I am cynical all the time now I think so that means zero to be honest.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Mellowma
I would ask again, as it sounds like the vet did a normal stool sample to me, the PCR test is specifically for TF and is a separate test.

Getting back to Amberpearl66, so the boy has already had his blood group tested??? 
I do hope he has, as blood group incompatibility is not something someone just made up to scare the OP. 

Kittens die due to this. It is not "just nature", as it is very preventable.
Breeding well is not just about "love", it is about knowledge and commitment.


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## beardsmith (Jan 11, 2010)

lizward said:


> Ok everyone, I have had an email from Amber. She says the boy has been blood tested and is type B, also that he will now be neutered.
> 
> Liz


I find this very hard to beleive.Amberpearl posted yesterday for the first time asking for advice about if her cat was pregnant.She would appear to no nothing so would not know about bloodgrouping.
This was only mentioned at lunch time by me.
I am a veterinary nurse and even if she took the boy this afternoon she would not know the result yet.
I have left messages on Amberpearls phone and asked her to contact me but as yet she has not done so.
I find this very irresponsible and very underhand.She has all my contact details so no excuse!!!
I AM STILL WILLING TO BUY HER BACK OR AT LEAST HAVE HER UNTIL SHE HAS HAD THE KITTENS.
If you are now having the boy neutered PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ALSO HAVE THE GIRL SPEYED AFTER SHE HAS HAD THE KITTENS.THINKABOUT THE GIRL


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

beardsmith said:


> I find this very hard to beleive.Amberpearl posted yesterday for the first time asking for advice about if her cat was pregnant.She would appear to no nothing so would not know about bloodgrouping.
> This was only mentioned at lunch time by me.
> I am a veterinary nurse and even if she took the boy this afternoon she would not know the result yet.


I got the impression (though she didn't actually say this) that it was done some time ago, presumably with a view to breeding. There is no question of it having been done this afternoon, she mailed me at midday.

I didn't realise you could expect to lose the entire litter with this if the stud is homozygous A and the queen is B!

Liz


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## anniem (Jan 11, 2010)

most brreds dont have the problem but it is in the British short Hair and selkirks and again knowing the lines the cats come from i would be extemely surprised if he was B as the majority of the lines the boy came from have A blood group which is dominant over B and the problem lies with kittens of a queen with blood group B mated to a boy of A blood group because of antibodies resulting in the kittens just fading away


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## anniem (Jan 11, 2010)

lizward said:


> I got the impression (though she didn't actually say this) that it was done some time ago, presumably with a view to breeding. There is no question of it having been done this afternoon, she mailed me at midday.
> 
> I didn't realise you could expect to lose the entire litter with this if the stud is homozygous A and the queen is B!
> 
> Liz


The blood grouping is not something most breeders would think of so as Amber doesnt even appear to know whether her cat is pregnant or when it happened i wouldnt have thought she would have been aware of blood group incompatibility as some of you who are experinced breeders have just admitted you didnt kknow . If amber has children it will be heartbreaking for them to watch so Amber if you truly love your cat it might be wisest to take the breeder up on her offer of having the cat back for the time being


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

anniem said:


> If amber has children it will be heartbreaking for them to watch


O gosh yes, there is not much that is worse than seeing your longed for litter die one by one and knowing there is not a thing you can do about it! :crying:

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

anniem said:


> again knowing the lines the cats come from i would be extemely surprised if he was B as the majority of the lines the boy came from have A blood group which is dominant over B


Recessive genes can carry for a very long time of course - but I agree she has been terribly lucky if the boy is B when he comes from mainly A lines.

Liz


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> I got the impression (though she didn't actually say this) that it was done some time ago, presumably with a view to breeding. There is no question of it having been done this afternoon, she mailed me at midday.
> 
> I didn't realise you could expect to lose the entire litter with this if the stud is homozygous A and the queen is B!
> 
> Liz


Sorry I agree with all the above replies - blood grouping shows research and preparation for breeding and a good knowledge of this breed, something which her previous replies to me show she has not done and does not have  so I doubt the boy was blood grouped.

As Anniem and Beardsmith know I have been preparing for breeding this breed for 18 months and have owned and shown the breed for longer. I am still learning about blood grouping and breeding and my breeding cats have all been blood grouped so I can hopefully avoid the heartache of losing a whole litter (which Liz can and does happen). I find it hard to believe someone would know all about the intricacies of blood grouping (which many more knowledgeable people don't know about) but not know about registration and the meaning of 'active' and 'non-active'.

I hope Amber takes Beardsmith up on her offer so that any heartache is avoided.


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

I have to agree with Soupie et al, especially when I read that the pregnancy was thought to have occurred when the cats were in a cattery over Xmas.... doesn't sound much like a planned mating


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## beardsmith (Jan 11, 2010)

lizward said:


> I got the impression (though she didn't actually say this) that it was done some time ago, presumably with a view to breeding. There is no question of it having been done this afternoon, she mailed me at midday.
> 
> I didn't realise you could expect to lose the entire litter with this if the stud is homozygous A and the queen is B!
> 
> Liz


If the boy is homozygous A ie AA and the girl is B ie bb the possibility of losing all the kittens is high.
If the boy is heterozygous A ie Ab a percentage of the kittens will surrvive but sometimes this is not the case as all the kittens born in a litter might all be mismatched


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I didn't think Catterys took entire cats? My local one doesn't. 

Yeah, I'm sorry but there is no way Amber has had her boy Blood Tested. 

If I were in Amber's shoes I'd give the cat back, for free, it's for the best Amber and you know that! So, please!!!! do the correct thing.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Soupie said:


> I am still learning about blood grouping and breeding and my breeding cats have all been blood grouped so I can hopefully avoid the heartache of losing a whole litter (which Liz can and does happen).


O yes I know - when I said "I didn't realise" what I meant was that I hadn't really taken it in. Having looked it up, it is perfectly clear.

Liz


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## beardsmith (Jan 11, 2010)

This will be my last post on here it is too upsetting for me to follow any more.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LET ME HAVE HER BACK
There will be no recriminations about what has happened I can't change it and being angry is no use to any one.
I am only thinking about the welfare and well being of my girl and the kittens.
I will have her until she has had the kittens and then give her back to you.
Iam sure you love her but it is very soul destroying even to long standing breeders when kittens die one after the other and even more so if children see this.
Please think about what I have said and if you can't contact me contact someone else on the thread and they can contact me.
She is a maiden queen who doesn't know what is happening to her and you are a novice who hasn't birthed before anything could happen.
I am sure you would not want anything to happen to her so please give her back for a short time.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

It can easily be rectified by taking the kits away from mum as soon as they are born and hand feeding for ~24 hours.
However for the novice that may be difficult and I suppose you always have the risk of a new inexperienced and frightened new mum not being happy with that arrangement and abandoning her whole litter which will need to be hand reared.

I think your breeder has made you a very good, kind and genuine offer. It is the most sensible thing to do in the circumstances, and gives the kittens and mum the very best chance. It will also give you an opportunity to learn a lot from an experienced breeder, something which you can use in the future if you do decide to breed again.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

My first queen had a litter with someone else before I had her, they didnt blood type her, 3 out of 5 kittens died and the surviving two lost the tips of there tails Turns out she was a B, 

Amberpearl, if you havnt had the boy blood typed you really need to get it done asap for the sake of these kittens, 

You've had a very good offer from the breeder of your cat, I really hope you see sense and accept


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## poshmog (Mar 2, 2009)

beardsmith said:


> This will be my last post on here it is too upsetting for me to follow any more.
> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LET ME HAVE HER BACK
> There will be no recriminations about what has happened I can't change it and being angry is no use to any one.
> I am only thinking about the welfare and well being of my girl and the kittens.
> ...


Having read all of this thread,I think this is a very kind and generous offer.
For the sake of all concerned ,especially mum and babies,please consider this,it will be heartbreaking if this goes badly and there is loss of life.
Your little girl didnt ask to be pregnant,and clearly shouldnt be,but the fact is she is,and has to have the best of care,which as a novice you will find difficult
If you love your cat ,let the breeder have her back ,or at least be involved


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Handrearing newborn kitts is a near on impossible task for a complete novice!and listening to the heartwrenching cries of a fading kitten is unbearable


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> listening to the heartwrenching cries of a fading kitten is unbearable


O gosh yes! One of the worst sounds ever!

Liz


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

I am sorry, I have to agree with the rest, let Beardsmith have the girl back asap! She is probably going to need the very best of care and attention when she has these babies as the odds are that the blood type will be incompatible and I have serious concerns that you will be able to give her the care and attention she will need. Beardsmith, as a caring, responsible and experienced breeder will be able to. By keeping her you are putting the lives of your girl and her unborn babies at risk and, if you really DO care about her as you say you do then you have no option but to do the very best you can for her, which is to return her. Think yourself lucky that you have such a responsible breeder as her, many do not want to know once the kitten has been sold, she is showing that her cats mean more to her than anything by being so willing to do anything she can to ensure the safety of this girl and her future kittens.

I do, however, seriously doubt your motives in all this. If, as you pretend, you wanted to breed for the love of the cat etc, then why go about it in such a backstreet fashion by using a queen on the non-active register and an unregistered stud for kittens that cannot be registered, cannot be shown and can do nothing at all to further the good of the breed? Only backstreet breeders, in it solely for the money, (buy cats on the cheap, save money on registration then sell via private ads at exhorbitant amounts for "posh pets") do it that way, RESPONSIBLE and HONEST breeders first buy non-active cats to show as neuters, do hours and hours of research, ask questions, find out everything they can about the breed, pedigree lines, blood groups etc, and then they pay proper money for a good quality, active register queen, pay proper money to go to, or buy, a good, active registered, stud, and do things correctly. You, on the other hand, bought "cheap" cats not intended for breeding, totally ignored the advice of a well known and respected breeder in the breed, obtained another cat from dubious sources, failed to do any of the important research into compatibility, did not even know enough to know that your cat was pregnant but had to ask us and can't even afford to buy decent top quality cat food! Goodness knows how you will be able to afford the necessary vet fees when it all goes pearshaped, I worry for that poor little girl, I really do


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

carolmanycats said:


> Think yourself lucky that you have such a responsible breeder as her, many do not want to know once the kitten has been sold, she is showing that her cats mean more to her than anything by being so willing to do anything she can to ensure the safety of this girl and her future kittens.


This is certainly true - had Amber set about breeding in the right way and got a girl from this breeder, she would clearly have chosen a very good way to get started, with all the right support.

Liz


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## anniem (Jan 11, 2010)

well i hope for ambers sake he is B - If not it will mean she will have to stay awake all night to make sure no kittens are born and sucke any milk as that will be fatal to them.

Also with a girl who has not given birth before the kittens may get stuck or she may not break the bags and they will suffocate - Its not easy for a maiden queen- some have no problems but many have a lot of problems- In addition the mum may not have enough milk and if she tries to handraise them unless you know what you are doing you can get milk on their lungs and they will suffer from aspiration pneumonia .

Please Amber if you love your girl let the breeder have her back while she gives birth and raises the kittens for at least the first few weeks just to make sure she is safe and you dont lose her - watching kittens die is heartbreaking and hearing their final breaths as you are totally herlpless to do anything about it- watching a girl struggling with a kitten stuck in the bitrth canal which then means the other kittens can die is also heartbreaking.

Think of your girl and the love you have for her and make sure she is safe


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

anniem said:


> watching kittens die is heartbreaking and hearing their final breaths as you are totally herlpless to do anything about it


It's that cry isn't it, like no normal kitten cry, they only make it when they are dying and you've got the choice of taking them into the vet to be PTS (at emergency rates, as like as not) which involves sticking them with a (for their size) large needle but at least it's quick, or taking them out of the nest and putting them somewhere warm to die in whatever comfort they can find (because they won't be with the others any more at that stage) or ... well I would never contemplate the other option. It's absolutely horrible. How you cope with that when it's a whole litter, well, I just can't imagine :crying:

Liz


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

I wish I'd never read this! 
Not only is the thought of un-neutered different breed type cats running around together horrifying enough but to then see a complete novice attempt to birth and rear kittens which may or may not be in good health is heartbreaking. 

I feel so badly for the breeder I think she should make an attempt to retrieve the queen as from the sounds of it the current owner is completely irresponsible and selfish and has no compassion or care for the mother or her kittens.

How very very sad this whole thread is, it makes no sense to me at all to take any risk which may have the slightest chance of upsetting any of my girls. My cats are my babies and I'd walk over hot coals for them.

I hope mum and babies all come through this well, but I fear similar situations arising in the future, maybe a call to the RSPCA regarding animal welfare may be in order?


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

claire17480 said:


> I wish I'd never read this!
> 
> How very very sad this whole thread is, it makes no sense to me at all to take any risk which may have the slightest chance of upsetting any of my girls. My cats are my babies and I'd walk over hot coals for them.


Could not agree more, Claire. We have a girl here on the active register, a Selkirk too as it happens, she was not bought for breeding, she had been given back word on, we fell in love with her, and the breeder (from whom we had already had 2 others, both now neutered males) let us have her at pet price as we were not intending to breed but said if we did decide to, to let her know so (a) we could sort out an additional payment or a kitten back etc - which is fair enough as the breeding queen rate is obviously a lot higher than the pet rate - and (b) for advice and support.

I would actually love to have at least 1 litter from her but sadly circumstances do not allow (my partner is disabled and almost blind so would be unable to help and my work hours are too long to give the cat and any kittens the right amount of time and care) and so I accept that much as I would like to it is just not feasible. In addition I would be terrified of anything going wrong and losing the kitttens, or, far worse, our girl and so she will be neutered in the near future. A shame, as she has good lines behind her, but at the end of the day it is her health and well-being that are paramount.

Carol


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## anniem (Jan 11, 2010)

amberpearl66 said:


> yes there both pedigrees selkirk rex, from different breeders. i havent heard her call in months. the male has been after her pretty much all the time regardless if she calls or not. she has attacked him on numerous occasions, she was most interested in him duirng summer, when she did call. i thought one ofthem was infertile, as id had them over a year and nothing happened.
> im not sure how many weeks she is, she was not showing at xmas, i just noticed her nipples and bigger belly 2 days ago
> is there anyway to know how far along she is? i have a covered cat bed. all my cats are indoor cats. would i need to keep the male away when she has kittens? do i need to take her to a vet? she is fed whiskers and gocat biscuits, plus always after ham and cheese!


From the above Amber you are asking for advice and help- You are being given this willingly from the breeder who let you have the cat as a pet-
She has promised no recriminations even though you decided to breed from the girl by getting a boy for her and she just wants to make sure her cat comes through this and also her kittens safely .

i cannot for the life of me see why you are not taking up this offer from a trained veterinarian nurse who knows what she is doing, knows how to cope with all possible problems that may arise and, if anyone can, will make sure your girl and kittens are safe - a breeder with years of experience , experience of dealing with things when they go wrong-someone who really really loves the girl you have and doesnt want her to suffer - you are being given something on a plate anyone who is a new breeder would snap their hands off as it is something that believe me is very rarely offered to new breeders - Think of your girl above all and make sure she comes through this safely


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

claire17480 said:


> I hope mum and babies all come through this well, but I fear similar situations arising in the future, maybe a call to the RSPCA regarding animal welfare may be in order?


They won't want to know and indeed at this stage there is no welfare issue involved. The issue would come if she was breeding a type A boy to a type B girl but she says the boy was bloodtyped before she ever started breeding and that he is type B. That is clearly beginner's luck since it seems certain that he came from A lines, but unless she has made a mistake, there is no reason for this to be a high risk litter.

Liz


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Umpteen un-neutered cats from un-known lines all romping around the same house is surely a welfare issue is it not? 
Breeding when you clearly have absolutely not the first clue about breeding is a welfare issue is it not?

Chances are all will be fine, mother will do a grand job with the babies and soon as she's back in call she'll be pregnant to another of her un-neutered house mates, maybe one of the kittens will be lucky enough to be kept back for breeding maybe back to her dad?

I know animal charities have a lot to deal with but I feel this is a welfare issue and should be treated as such.


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## anniem (Jan 11, 2010)

lizward said:


> They won't want to know and indeed at this stage there is no welfare issue involved. The issue would come if she was breeding a type A boy to a type B girl but she says the boy was bloodtyped before she ever started breeding and that he is type B. That is clearly beginner's luck since it seems certain that he came from A lines, but unless she has made a mistake, there is no reason for this to be a high risk litter.
> 
> Liz


I'm afraid i disagree even if blood groups are compatible I dont think not a high risk litter can be guaranteed- Maiden queens are always high risk - of not bursting bags, kittens getting stuck etc especially for someone new to breeding


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think that the RSPCA and like minded charities are more concerned with dog and cats being totally abandoned or left with no food or water or in dangerous and/or seriously dirty situations.
Uncontrolled breeding although it does impact on their work is only a problem if the animals are not being cared for well. ie no vet care or no food.
If dogs/cats were seized because the owners were clueless then we would have an RSPCA shelter on every street.



Anniem said:


> Maiden queens are always high risk - of not bursting bags, kittens getting stuck etc especially for someone new to breeding


They can also abandon kittens or trail them around the house if they are uncertain of what has happened to them.
I think the general thoughts among non-breeders are that cats just manage all by themselves and that if anything nasty happens it is "just nature's way".
That is a myth. Often breeders have to pull out all the stops otherwise kittens die and occasionally mothers too. It is great to see litters of 6 healthy babies but the photos don't show the sleepless nights, the vet visits, the topping up of new-borns and the sweating of blood in order to get them all to survive


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

claire17480 said:


> Umpteen un-neutered cats from un-known lines all romping around the same house is surely a welfare issue is it not?
> Breeding when you clearly have absolutely not the first clue about breeding is a welfare issue is it not?


Well, not as far as the RSPCA is concerned, no - but that could take us to a whole new thread!

liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

anniem said:


> I'm afraid i disagree even if blood groups are compatible I dont think not a high risk litter can be guaranteed- Maiden queens are always high risk - of not bursting bags, kittens getting stuck etc especially for someone new to breeding


I suppose it depends on the definition of high risk. Most new breeders start with a maiden queen after all. It's a pity this hasn't been done in circumstances where the expected date is known and there is an experienced breeder at the other end of a phone, but if the blood groups are both B hopefully things will be OK as long as Amber reads up thoroughly and knows when to call a vet.

Amber now tells me the vet found no evidence of pregnancy.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Well thank goodness for that then, should it be true.


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## tilsie (Jun 15, 2009)

lizward said:


> Ok everyone, I have had an email from Amber. She says the boy has been blood tested and is type B, also that he will now be neutered.
> 
> Liz


The boy wasn't tested until just before the kittens were born and he is Group A. Jayne (this is the name she gave me) told me this herself in panic.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes, that much is clear from the other forum!

Liz


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## tilsie (Jun 15, 2009)

Beardsmith can you empty your inbox so I can send you a message, Thanks


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## beardsmith (Jan 11, 2010)

tilsie said:


> The boy wasn't tested until just before the kittens were born and he is Group A. Jayne (this is the name she gave me) told me this herself in panic.


Jayne is the name she gave me.This lady has been offered loads of help and has not taken any of it.She knew at the very begining that there was a blood incompatability with the kittens and refused to act.
She has told numerous lies about this cat.
This cat has gone through HELL AND SO HAVE THE KITTENS when it could possibly have been prevented.
She will no longer post now as she has been found out again.This is what she did last time.
she is not concernd about her cats welfare this has been clearly proven


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes, Jayne is the name she gave me too, probably is genuine.

Liz


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