# Gundog trainer hangs dog by its ears



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Do not watch this if you are of a sensitive nature. About 1 min in, the trainer picks the dog up by its ears and throws it backwards.

This man needs to be picked up by his own ears!***It's been reported to r $ pca but people power works best.

Has been downloaded just in case it vanishes.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=102007...p_comment_reply


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

The link doesn't work but that sounds horrific. Disgusting that anyone would think it's acceptable to treat a dog like that.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Dog abuser - YouTube


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Disgusting monster. 

Who is this man? name and shame time.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

He's in Saltash, Cornwall... he may have removed the vid, RSPCA are aware but want more complaints, apparently you can complain via their website but I'm buggered if I can find it... sigh*


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

MerlinsMum said:


> He's in Saltash, Cornwall... he may have removed the vid, RSPCA are aware but want more complaints, apparently you can complain via their website but I'm buggered if I can find it... sigh*


so video evidence isn't enough for them?  the rspca are a joke, didn't click the link but I hope something is done.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

just scrambled to find a free download / app to save the video!
i was sure it would be gone b4 i solved the issues, but i snagged it.

Whew... & what a rotten thing to do to any dog; the poor thing is so constantly appeasing, 
& him with his "i'll just touch him to reassure him..." What a crock of manure. :mad5:


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2013)

It never ceases to blow my mind what dogs will put up with and still do the job...

Just goes to show that the whole "he wouldn't work for me if I mistreated him" line is a total crock.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> It never ceases to blow my mind, what dogs will put up with & still do the job...
> 
> Just goes to show that the whole, "he wouldn't work for me if I mistreated him" line, is a total crock.


yup.  It's on par with the "they only breed if they're HAPPY" line, which is often another crock!

It's true that there are -some- species who are quite picky, but it's just as possible for them to be
picky about humidity, water-level in the stream, salinity, SPACE - like F-cheetah -- adequate food, 
etc, as opposed to something as vague & amorphous as the emotion, 'happy'. Many animals will breed 
when they're utterly mizrable; poorly-fed, under-wt, crowded, have untreated injuries, are malnourished,
& so on.

Lions in captivity will breed, over & over, even when the lioness loses every litter to resorption cuz she's 
too scrawny to carry a litter to term. :nonod: Only the wilfully blind could say such big-cats are 'Happy'.  
There are, of course, also captive lions who are in excellent condition, healthy, sleek, fit... & they, too, 
breed like bunnies in spring.  Most big-cats are on contraceptives in captivity, unless they're 
breeding endangered-spp for release, or swapping for the SSP.

To return to Mr Suave  i was amazed when he announced he'd been _"waiting for the dog to show
'I wanna train'..."_ for a couple of weeks. So far as i could tell, yes, the dog wanted the bumper - 
but no, the dog wasn't enamored of his, a-hem!... _'partner'_.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The kennel club are aware of this footage.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Wow. How cruel.


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## JessIncaFCR (Oct 1, 2012)

That's horrendous


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## leannelatty (Aug 14, 2009)

Un-fricking-believeable!!!!!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Awful, wonder how he'd like?


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Thats awful. 

Who owns the dog, the Trainer?


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## patterdalelass (Dec 7, 2012)

Oooh id love to be able to do that to him.What a complete and utter muppet.


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2013)

Disgusting man. I'd love to hang him by his ears.


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## Kingly Pet (Jun 12, 2013)

Why are some humans so horrible.............? This kind of this just breaks my heart!

He will get his own one day - lets hope.

KP


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

there is now a link to his facebook posted under the video


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

He obviously see nothing wrong with it. Far worse than that happens. Not sure how it can be an rspca case. It is mild compared with how a lot of dog trainers treat dogs, and a lot of pet owners. What has it got to do with the kernel club.

I am not condoning but have seen far worse and it certainly used to be normal to pick a dog up by loose skin and return it to where it should be staying. Training methods have changed so much but some people have kept to the methods they have always always used.

You often see people remarking on older people having such attentive dogs and that unusually the reason why.

Again I am not condoning lifting a dog by its ears


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

What a sick sick man! And a poor poor dog!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

And these people supposedly 'love' their dogs, well, that's a funny way of showing it, what a disgusting man. Poor little dog 

It's been scientifically proven that pain & fear cause stress, which impair learning, surely it's about time these sort of people come out of the dark ages & stop abusing their dogs


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Can't watch it. Can see by the responses of you guys that it's as ghastly as it sounds.

Perhaps we should start commenting on his FB page....? I think I'll head over there shortly...

What does the RSPCA actually NEED to ACT


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Blitz said:


> He obviously see nothing wrong with it. Far worse than that happens. Not sure how it can be an rspca case. It is mild compared with how a lot of dog trainers treat dogs, and a lot of pet owners. What has it got to do with the kernel club.
> 
> I am not condoning but have seen far worse and it certainly used to be normal to pick a dog up by loose skin and return it to where it should be staying. Training methods have changed so much but some people have kept to the methods they have always always used.
> 
> ...


My sister used to appear to be a very attentive wife, but you would be wouldn't you? when you didn't know when the next act of violence was coming.


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## Holtie (May 30, 2012)

The RSPCA are a bliddy joke! 

I just find it appalling that the 'so-called gun-dog trainer' can treat his dog like that in front of others! If the others in his group think that it is acceptable to do that then they are just as vile as him!



I find it heart-breaking that the dog is still so eager to please him even after being punished.



I wouldn't be at all surprised that if this carries on and the dog still 'dis-obeys' him, he is a callous b*****d and will discard the dog!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Blitz said:


> He obviously see nothing wrong with it. Far worse than that happens. Not sure how it can be an rspca case. It is mild compared with how a lot of dog trainers treat dogs, and a lot of pet owners. What has it got to do with the kernel club.
> 
> I am not condoning but have seen far worse and it certainly used to be normal to pick a dog up by loose skin and return it to where it should be staying. Training methods have changed so much but some people have kept to the methods they have always always used.
> 
> ...


He obviously see's nothing wrong with it? oh that's ok then, all forgiven. The main thing is that he see's nothing wrong with it.

Far worse than that happens. Oh, that makes it ok then?

Good grief.

I had to leave one gundog training group because of prehistoric men like this.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I'd like to see him apply this unique training method on a Zara or Oscar.

It would be the last dog he ever abused and after the long stay in ICU he'd probably have to find someone else to wipe his dumb fat 4R53 for the remainder of his days.

As for this [email protected]@kin' creature :

[youtube_browser]hpPkOtOV550[/youtube_browser]

I'd like to invite him into Zara's and Oscar's enclosure, start a fight with him and then let Zara and Oscar finish the job for me.


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2013)

Blitz said:


> He obviously see nothing wrong with it. Far worse than that happens. Not sure how it can be an rspca case. It is mild compared with how a lot of dog trainers treat dogs, and a lot of pet owners. What has it got to do with the kernel club.
> 
> I am not condoning but have seen far worse and it certainly used to be normal to pick a dog up by loose skin and return it to where it should be staying. Training methods have changed so much but some people have kept to the methods they have always always used.


Of course you see far worse... And you're right, sadly this is not rare or unusual treatment of a dog. But that doesn't mean it's okay!
That's like the drunk driver saying "hey officer, at least I'm not as drunk as some people who drink and drive!"



Blitz said:


> You often see people remarking on older people having such attentive dogs and that unusually the reason why.
> 
> Again I am not condoning lifting a dog by its ears


I know a lot of "older" people and the ones I hang out with have moved on to more humane and effective training methods. 
Robert Millner is a fabulous example of an "old" guy, a gun-dog trainer, who used old-school ways for decades, and when presented with new information, he moved on and embraced better ways. Not all "old" people are stuck in the dark ages.

BTW, there is a huge difference between attentive, engaged and focused, and the hyper, nervous appeasement that this dog was showing. Mistreating a dog does not make him more attentive, it makes him appease you more in an attempt to avoid more mistreatment.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Of course you see far worse... And you're right, sadly this is not rare or unusual treatment of a dog. But that doesn't mean it's okay!
> That's like the drunk driver saying "hey officer, at least I'm not as drunk as some people who drink and drive!"
> 
> I know a lot of "older" people and the ones I hang out with have moved on to more humane and effective training methods.
> ...


I used to see a lot of dogs like this at gundog training. They were not happy dogs at all. They looked well behaved on the surface but were actually petrified.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

JeanGenie said:


> Disgusting man. I'd love to hang him by his ears.


I'd like to hang him and the man in the other film up by another part of their bodies the evil B*****ds. :  :  :


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Zaros said:


> I'd like to see him apply this unique training method on a Zara or Oscar.
> 
> It would be the last dog he ever abused and after the long stay in ICU he'd probably have to find someone else to wipe his dumb fat 4R53 for the remainder of his days.
> 
> ...


Oh dear god!!....I'm in floods of tears, couldnt watch past a few seconds either....I'm sure I would be in prison now if I had witnessed this cos I would have shot the [email protected] of a [email protected]!!!!!...

I liked your post for what you said you want to do to them too....

My heart is literally aching at such diabolical cruelty


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2013)

FWIW, I don't think wishing ill will or harm to this trainer is much better than what he's doing... Wishing violence on someone for doing violence doesn't make much sense to me.

The combative, confrontational attitude he has met on FB certainly aren't going to make him change his ways.
"An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."

Positive methods work on people too....


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Zaros said:


> I'd like to see him apply this unique training method on a Zara or Oscar.
> 
> It would be the last dog he ever abused and after the long stay in ICU he'd probably have to find someone else to wipe his dumb fat 4R53 for the remainder of his days.
> 
> ...


I watched the first few seconds of that then had to turn it off. Now I'm crying. What the **** is wrong with some people?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

redroses2106 said:


> so video evidence isn't enough for them?  the rspca are a joke, didn't click the link but I hope something is done.


RSPCA will be too busy bullying an old woman of 83 because her cat has a flea or two.


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## Huskylover1 (Jul 1, 2013)

I know what i would do with him. These sort of people make me sick.:


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Blitz said:


> He obviously see nothing wrong with it. Far worse than that happens. Not sure how it can be an rspca case. It is mild compared with how a lot of dog trainers treat dogs, and a lot of pet owners. What has it got to do with the kernel club.
> 
> I am not condoning but have seen far worse and it certainly used to be normal to pick a dog up by loose skin and return it to where it should be staying. Training methods have changed so much but some people have kept to the methods they have always always used.
> 
> ...





moonviolet said:


> My sister used to appear to be a very attentive wife, but you would be wouldn't you? when you didn't know when the next act of violence was coming.


I know you say you arent condoning Blitz, it but your post does read as excusing it, as moonviolet points out we dont allow men to be violent to their wives any more, just because we used to turn a blind eye to such treatment (of dogs and wo/men) doesn't mean to say with better education we cant shouldn't stand up to them now.

I agree with you, I have seen far worse , but is it OK for one to slap their spouse, as long as they arent beating them senseless and placing them in hospital, or, while we are at it is it ok for one to shout abuse at ones spouse as long as you dont raise a finger to physically punish them.

Of course it isn't and its about time we started treating our animals with the same respect we would hope to be given ourselves.

On a different note I admit I first thought how sad that the dog is still so eager to 'please' him, its no wonder people find this sort of treatment acceptable.

After reading Ouesi's post I realise that should read how eager to 'appease' two very very different words .


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

ouesi said:


> FWIW, I don't think wishing ill will or harm to this trainer is much better than what he's doing... Wishing violence on someone for doing violence doesn't make much sense to me.
> 
> The combative, confrontational attitude he has met on FB certainly aren't going to make him change his ways.
> "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."
> ...


Of course your right, but its an instant natural human reaction to seeing something as bad as this!....when we calm down we do come back to our senses and would never in a million years do what we have said in that "moment" of feeling despair on what we witness.......


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MyMillie said:


> Oh dear god!!....I'm in floods of tears, couldnt watch past a few seconds either....I'm sure I would be in prison now if I had witnessed this cos I would have shot the [email protected] of a [email protected]!!!!!...
> 
> I liked your post for what you said you want to do to them too....
> 
> My heart is literally aching at such diabolical cruelty


I always find it odd that these events are being filmed by someone...are they wanting to use it as evidence? Or in the first instance, the trainer...was he not aware that he was doing something which some people might find unacceptable? Both incidents totally unacceptable.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

GingerRogers said:


> I know you say you arent condoning Blitz, it but your post does read as excusing it, as moonviolet points out we dont allow men to be violent to their wives any more, just because we used to turn a blind eye to such treatment (of dogs and wo/men) doesn't mean to say with better education we cant shouldn't stand up to them now.
> 
> I agree with you, I have seen far worse , but is it OK for one to slap their spouse, as long as they arent beating them senseless and placing them in hospital, or, while we are at it is it ok for one to shout abuse at ones spouse as long as you dont raise a finger to physically punish them.
> 
> ...


Yep, well said. I was wondering how long it would take before someone would condone that lame excuse for a mans actions as being "old school" and that somehow being acceptable. Surprise surprise, it didn't take long.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

As someone who has been on the receiving end of abusive from an ex and was unfortunate to meet a trainer for whom 'old school' is the best method recently, I think going on to prove one's success with kindness is the most irritating thing for them. There's nothing wrong with imagining smacking the living daylights out of irrational exe's, well for me anyway, but as long as it remains a thought observation that merely drives one onto do well. Just don't be so low to take that action. Marrying a great man who is worth a universe more than my ex is worth so much. Abuse is words, is physical and mental.

There is a campaign called the Real Man Campaign that we're supporting and you can sign a pledge. The words are
A 'Real Man' doesn't hit, abuse or control
A 'Real Man' doesn't hurt the ones he loves
A 'Real Man' makes a difference

I think it applies to all species and it's a crying shame it even needs to be a 'campaign' it ought to be natural.

(BTW The unfortunate, and yes a gun dog, 'trainer' has twice tried to rearrange a follow up, thinking it's fine to bully potential clients too. I sent him the accolade on my other thread last night and told him no really does means no, we're doing fine thanks. He has finally got the message.)


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> FWIW, I don't think wishing ill will or harm to this trainer is much better than what he's doing... Wishing violence on someone for doing violence doesn't make much sense to me.
> 
> The combative, confrontational attitude he has met on FB certainly aren't going to make him change his ways.
> "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."
> ...


Sadly I'm not a saint and never have been and although I agree with you to a certain extent the law doesn't protect all animals.

Two or four legged.

Instead it goes to great lengths to ensure some get a fair trial after subjecting their pets and their fellow man to the most cruel and unnecessary suffering.

Did you see the photo of Oscar's injury?

Inflicted by yet another couldn't give a to55 about lower order animals.

The law claims it cannot do anything about it and the detritus responsible knows this which gives them free licence to do it all over again.

Next time I'll be more aware of the despicable lengths these low life specimens are prepared go to for their own twisted pleasure and amusement. Then I'll meter out my own brand of justice instead of standing idly by while some delinquent abuses an animal in my care.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Isn't local law prosecution enough to do something ie, stop him working with dogs?

ThisIs


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2013)

Zaros, I understand completely why you feel the way you do. Other than that, I don't know what response you're looking for form me. 
While I personally don't agree that meeting violence with more violence is the answer, I understand that we each do what we feel is right. For me, I am an educator not a fighter. That's just me...

I've also known way too many people like this trainer, and I know from experience that any form of confrontation will only solidify him in his beliefs even more. It's human nature really.

Call me naive, but I would guess that the trainer in the OP genuinely likes dogs. He is just very misinformed from probably a lifetime of indoctrination in to "it's for their own good" way of thinking. Not much unlike the attitudes on a thread in general chat about smacking kids. 
Just taking from discussions I've had with other gun dog trainers, I would also guess that this guy genuinely believes this dog is better off with a few smacks than accidentally shot because he broke a stay. 

So telling him he's a jerk really doesn't accomplish much. But showing him a rock solid stay, the product of more humane and effective methods, just might get his attention. 
If I approached every owner who did this sort of thing and worse to their dog by telling them they're sick bastards, I loose their ear and the dogs in their care continue to suffer. However, if you show them a better way in a non-confrontational, respectful way, you have a much better chance of effecting long-term change.


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2013)

dandogman said:


> I've just realised I'm on a fb group with this dude. There is a discussion about it where he posted the video, most comments are negative, he's just arguing with them.


He's also getting a good bit of support too though...
Lots of "this isn't pet dog training," "treat bribery," and "different dogs need different methods" counter arguments...

All the more reason to get out there and show off what can be accomplished with force-free, rewards-based methods.


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Can't watch it. Can see by the responses of you guys that it's as ghastly as it sounds.
> 
> Perhaps we should start commenting on his FB page....? I think I'll head over there shortly...
> 
> *What does the RSPCA actually NEED to ACT*


a camera crew


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## spoiltmadam (May 21, 2013)

www.rspca.org.uk/myrspca

Vile creature, i have reported him but wont hold my breath on them doing anything!!


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> And these people supposedly 'love' their dogs, well, that's a funny way of showing it, what a disgusting man. Poor little dog


TBH I think a lot of people own dogs because they like the power of dominating them. I think that seeing a dog deferring to them makes them feel powerful.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm not condoning what the man is doing at all, I find it totally disgusting and unnecessary but I have to say it doesnt shock me at all. I've seen treatment of gundogs on par with this and is still seen as a relatively normal and acceptable way of training gundogs.


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## spoiltmadam (May 21, 2013)

I had a reply from the RSPCA, but i am pretty sure its just their bog standard reply to everything, just saying thank you and there is an ongoing investigation into it.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Sadly I'm not a saint and never have been and although I agree with you to a certain extent the law doesn't protect all animals.
> 
> Two or four legged.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2013)

dandogman said:


> he knows all about more positive gundog training though, as the trainer who runs the fb page doesn't treat dogs like that. Also if you Google gundog training, the vast majority of it is mire positive gundog training.
> His argument to others saying that they've trained gundogs without force is his success in the field trial events and he has trained with the police, army, best in the world etc.


Knowing about positive training and *knowing* about it is different  Sorry, don't know how to express what I mean without gestures and facial expressions 

I'm sure you know, but his argument holds no water as more and more police, army, etc. switch to more humane and more effective methods.

And gosh, I disagree that the vast majority of gundog training is positive... They might not use the collars that we can't mention, but that doesn't mean the training is force-free or rewards based!

You have to remember too, with this kind of venue and this kind of trainer, they don't have to live with the dog they create. Plus, they are very selective about the breeds, the lines from that breed, and temperaments that they will work with. Training fails? Simply wash the dog from the program. 
You can't tell someone like this that some dogs won't put up with that treatment, because they simply don't work with that kind of dog.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> He obviously see nothing wrong with it. Far worse than that happens. Not sure how it can be an RSPCA case.
> It is mild compared with how a lot of dog trainers treat dogs, and a lot of pet owners. What has it got to do
> with the kernel club.
> 
> ...


Then what are U doing? :blink:

it's not an RSPCA case? Why not? Aren't they the official authorities who decide if specific treatment
of an animal is acceptable, or in fact, constitutes abuse, cruelty, or neglect?

My maternal grandfather bred hunting-hounds in the 1920s & 30s; he had dog-whips, & used them.
Just like a quirt for horseback-riding, or a buggy-whip, U could buy them at any feed-&-grain store.
They didn't call them anything cute or invent clever euphemisms to hide their general purpose - they 
were dog-whips, pure & simple, & if U used one on Ur kid, Ur spouse, or Ur dog, ppl might not approve,
but they were unlikely to challenge it - particularly if the dog was the one U whipped, as that was the norm - 
let alone take U to court over it. *Times have changed - practices have changed.*

Saying, _"but he's old..."_ doesn't excuse him. He's a hired professional, not a hobbyist, & not a geriatric 
building model-airplanes & sniffing the glue, reminiscing on his lost youth. His behavior affects others - 
first & foremost, the dog, but what about the on-scene audience?
Are they supposed to go & do likewise? How many 20- or 30-somethings are in that group, walking the field, 
noting what he says & does, & taking it as gospel? HOW LONG will they carry it forward?
At some point, we make a decision - what's acceptable, what's preferable, & what's intolerable.

As for, _'older people having such attentive dogs'_, that's grotesque, in this context.
That dog isn't 'attentive' - he's a quaking bundle of frazzled nerve-ends, appeasing, frantic, & ditzy.
If he's an example of attentive & well-trained compliance, then to quote Dorothy Parker, 
"I am Marie of Roumania".
:thumbdown:


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> I mean if you Google it or go on a forum, the vast majority of trainers claim to train *with a much positivity as possible. *I know because I've been there first hand after going to a bully of a trainer.


 what is that supposed to mean 'as possible'

Gun dogs despite, what some gun dogs owners think are not some special snowflake breed that need treating differently to other dogs, pet or working, in actual fact they are amongst the most biddable breeds so surely should be even easier to train with positivity


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2013)

dandogman said:


> I mean if you Google it or go on a forum, the vast majority of trainers claim to train with a much positivity as possible. I know because I've been there first hand after going to a bully of a trainer.


"claim" is the operative word 
I'm not even sure what "as much positivity as possible" even means. There is never a need to resort to force, fear, pain, or intimidation in the name of training. Not meant as a dig to anyone who does resort to those, just saying it's not a necessity.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Leanne77 said:


> I'm not condoning what the man is doing at all, I find it totally disgusting and unnecessary but I have to say it doesnt shock me at all. I've seen treatment of gundogs on par with this and is still seen as a relatively normal and acceptable way of training gundogs.


Sadly this is very much true. In one of the groups I had to leave, the trainer wasn't a problem but some of the attendee's were. I saw plenty of dogs being scruffed, smacked across the rump/chest with sticks, dogs being physically pushed into positions, people grabbing the dogs by the jowls and screaming at them etc. One women with a Weim even grappled her dog, pinning it down in the mud because it didn't want to sit. I mean seriously, what is the point? you have to question what enjoyment the owners get from "training" like this. They must find it stressful and the dog most certainly finds it stressful. So apart from some sick self satisfaction they get from dominating and being 'in control' of the animal, why do they even bother?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dandogman said:


> he knows all about more positive gundog training though, as the trainer who runs the FB page doesn't treat dogs
> like that. Also if you Google gundog training, the vast majority of it is more positive gundog training.
> 
> *His argument to others* [who say] that they've trained gundogs without force *is his success in... field trial events,
> & he has trained with the police, army, best in the world, etc.*


nothing succeeds like excess, eh? :nonod:

BTW i'm getting a rash of those _"I've trained with the Army, police, Border Patrol,
Schutz / Mondo / Ring-sport, SAR, [__add hairy-chested K9 group of choice here___"_ 
codswallop on two Linked-IN forums where I'm a member; sorry, fellas, we're training *pet dogs*, 
not Maligators who are going to chase down armed perps & hold them for SWAT-teams. 

I don't need to hurt a dog to teach her or him to sit on cue, come when called, greet politely, 
& behave nicely in public or private. In fact... IME it works much-better if i don't cause pain, 
worry or fear, as the dog learns faster, learns to love training, & has a powerful trust in people 
that makes her or him approachable, easily handled, & fairly bombproof in most circumstances.

Meanwhile, some military- & cop-K9s wash out before they even finish training, due to harsh methods 
that damage the dog - all that money & effort, & the dog was ruined in the process before ever deploying.

Thank DoG, most military-handlers & even instructors have outgrown the p*ssing contests about how tough 
they are, or ought to be! The police are straggling along behind; APOs are divided, some understanding that
rewards create trust & teaching builds understanding, others stuck on, "What's good enuf for my Da..."
:glare:

We don't use our grandparent's party-line hardwired phones, they've evolved into something else - 
nor Franklin stoves, hurricane lamps, or rag-rugs except as nostalgic accent pieces, or rural comforts.
i think it's about time pet-dog & gundog training evolved from Neandertal to humane - don't U?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

40+ years in the world of shooting, game fairs and gundogs and I have only seen two individuals do something like that.............One who claimed to be a trainer and some rich bod who had bought his dog fully trained


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Never picked my dogs up by their ears, and it's not something I see anyone else do either. I have come across bullies who use harsh training methods I don't agree with and any of the training clubs I'm involved with certainly do not condone, any member resorting to this would be out on their ear.


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

I can't bring myself to watch these videos but I can guess what they're like


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

In the process of getting Ember good enough to try for the working gundog certificate, using clicker training  I go to monthly toller gundog training and only reward based methods are used. A few of the dogs that go work on shoots 

On a toller FB page there is a 'discussion' going on about using e collars for field training. The majority are from america and canada and it seems most use the collars  . Saying if you don't use it your dog won't be good enough! Luckily there's enough people from europe with working dogs proving what a load of rubbish that is!


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

That video sickened me, what a cruel, disgusting way to treat any animal. I really hope this man is prosecuted for cruelty.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

I cant look at the video Bertie was "trained" in the same way and daren't even think what he went through Ive heard so much about the Gamekeeper that had Bertie the way he so called trained his dogs, he was of the old school and thought beating them and throwing them around was the way to train.

I just hope this so called "man" gets some sort of punishment!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> That video sickened me, what a cruel, disgusting way to treat any animal.
> 
> *I really hope this man is prosecuted for cruelty.*


*That's* the key, for me; being upset by seeing a dog's whole body-weight dangled from his ears 
is one thing, but if no-one prosecutes this flamboyant, public display of 'abuse as training', IMO the RSPCA's 
reputation as the guardian of animal-welfare will pretty much be flushed down the toilet.

*Some authority* needs to bring charges - local, national, regional, i don't really care. But if they fail utterly 
to prosecute this case, my faith in UK standards of animal-welfare will take a very severe body-blow.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> *That's* the key, for me; being upset by seeing a dog's whole body-weight dangled from his ears
> is one thing, but if no-one prosecutes this flamboyant, public display of 'abuse as training', IMO the RSPCA's
> reputation as the guardian of animal-welfare will pretty much be flushed down the toilet.


It's pretty much there already isn't it?


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

me-

The dog trainer, Christopher Upton has posted this video Dog abuser - YouTube where he grabs a spaniel by its ears and picks it up, then hits it hard repeatedly and advises others to do this. 
this is his facebook account, on which there are more videos and comments on the cruel method. https://www.facebook.com/christopher.upton3
Sent 04/07/2013, 08:44:38
US

reply from rspca uk

Dear Miss Taylor

Thank you for contacting the RSPCA with your concern.

We can confirm that we are aware of the situation and there is currently an ongoing investigation into the matter.

Thank you for your time.

Kind regards

RSPCA National Control Centre
0300 1234 999

 x


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I couldn't view the link, and don't know it the thug has been named and shamed but if he hasn't then he should be!


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Having just browsed through this thread and seen a few comments relating to '' Older people'' using old fashioned methods such as those described. (Didn't see the video.) I'd just like to say that, as a very old person who has been around dogs, like Rona, for 40 yrs od more, I, and no one I know, uses methods so described. No dog of mine has ever been hard handled, the reason being that I want my dogs to work for me because they want to, not because they're afraid not to. This way I get dogs that are happy to put in a full day on one of the toughest woodcock shoots you could imagine, they do it because they want to, and for me that's important. I'm sure that there are many dogs out there who may be a little sharper on the whistle, dogs who never ''run in'', I'd be lying if I said that none of my lads have not jumped the command when there's been a bird to pick, but I dont care, the dogs I've had, whilst perhaps not perfect, have all been happy, and have never felt anything but a gentle hand on them. I just wanted to point out that not all of us '' Old Gits''Are hard on our dogs.


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

What a horrible man. 

I hope there comes a day he trys that with a dog that wont tollerate his s***.
A bit of respect wouldn't go a miss.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> I hope there comes a day he trys that with a dog that wont tollerate his s***.


If he would behave this appalingly to a dog for something as minor as breaking a stay I can't imagine what he would do to a dog that bit him 

Have sent my message to the RSPCA. Fingers crossed we get a result on this one.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

springerpete said:


> Having just browsed through this thread and seen a few comments relating to '' Older people'' using old fashioned methods such as those described. (Didn't see the video.) I'd just like to say that, as a very old person who has been around dogs, like Rona, for 40 yrs od more, I, and no one I know, uses methods so described. No dog of mine has ever been hard handled, the reason being that *I want my dogs to work for me because they want to, not because they're afraid not to*. This way I get dogs that are happy to put in a full day on one of the toughest woodcock shoots you could imagine, they do it because they want to, and for me that's important. I'm sure that there are many dogs out there who may be a little sharper on the whistle, dogs who never ''run in'', I'd be lying if I said that none of my lads have not jumped the command when there's been a bird to pick, but I dont care, the dogs I've had, whilst perhaps not perfect, have all been happy, and have never felt anything but a gentle hand on them. I just wanted to point out that not all of us '' Old Gits''Are hard on our dogs.


I say "Hallelujah" to your comment big time Pete!! and I for one APPLAUD you!.... 
when I first saw the sickening video this morning, and the even more heatrbreaking one that was posted a little after I went on my usual mortified crying self, I'm classed as one of those "Empathic's" that cant cope with the hurt of this world ..... and yes, maybe they are right? I do suffer so much at the knowing of whats happening to our beautiful animals, even though I havent witnessed this sick sort of things personally .....but it doesnt stop me from knowing its out there, and this is what affects me always!! my heart aches so much because of it....I just SO need to find a way that I personally could maybe help with this, and even in my late years and disabilities I really long to find a way I could.....feel a bit deflated at mo, my health is not good but my spirit craves the end of cruelty to our beloved animal friends 

after a lot of thought all day I realised that me being of "the so called generation who trained in this despicable way" I have never been part of this, I hate and will always hate this type of sick abusive type of training.... I just know deep down in my heart ALL dogs (all animals) deserve the utmost understanding and kindness in all training!!...


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

MyMillie said:


> I say "Hallelujah" to your comment big time Pete!! and I for one APPLAUD you!....
> when I first saw the sickening video this morning, and the even more heatrbreaking one that was posted a little after I went on my usual mortified crying self, I'm classed as one of those "Empathic's" that cant cope with the hurt of this world ..... and yes, maybe they are right? I do suffer so much at the knowing of whats happening to our beautiful animals, even though I havent witnessed this sick sort of things personally .....but it doesnt stop me from knowing its out there, and this is what affects me always!! my heart aches so much because of it....I just SO need to find a way that I personally could maybe help with this, and even in my late years and disabilities I really long to find a way I could.....feel a bit deflated at mo, my health is not good but my spirit craves the end of cruelty to our beloved animal friends
> 
> after a lot of thought all day I realised that me being of "the so called generation who trained in this despicable way" I have never been part of this, I hate and will always hate this type of sick abusive type of training.... I just know deep down in my heart ALL dogs (all animals) deserve the utmost understanding and kindness in all training!!...


They're not right though, for sure my way of training my dogs doesn't involve any 'Quick fixes' and therefore it may take a little longer, but trust me, when my boys bring in a bird they're so pleased with the fact that they've done something for me you can see it as plain as the nose on your face.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

springerpete said:


> They're not right though, for sure my way of training my dogs doesn't involve any 'Quick fixes' and therefore it may take a little longer, but trust me, when my boys bring in a bird they're so pleased with the fact that they've done something for me you can see it as plain as the nose on your face.


Reminds me of my first gundog. I remember so well, a woman saying to me, "your dog always looks so happy when she comes back to you" 

Me like you, have always had a dog that can think for itself


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

springerpete said:


> They're not right though, for sure my way of training my dogs doesn't involve any 'Quick fixes' and therefore it may take a little longer, but trust me, when my boys bring in a bird they're so pleased with the fact that they've done something for me you can see it as plain as the nose on your face.


Oh you are SO right! there really is never ever any quick fixes in any walk of life, just wish more people would realise this....your way of training is "so up my street".... and Im certain you will know the feeling that your dogs have done their job purely out of respect for you! is the ONLY best feeling ever!! to WANT to do the best for you! and deservedly so because you train them with love and respect!, I'm just grateful for the ones out there like you!....I just long for the day you are the majority type of person in training working dogs come to understand this.....and TRULY love their dogs for it...


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

springerpete said:


> Having just browsed through this thread and seen a few comments relating to '' Older people'' using old fashioned methods such as those described. (Didn't see the video.) I'd just like to say that, as a very old person who has been around dogs, like Rona, for 40 yrs od more, I, and no one I know, uses methods so described. No dog of mine has ever been hard handled, the reason being that I want my dogs to work for me because they want to, not because they're afraid not to. This way I get dogs that are happy to put in a full day on one of the toughest woodcock shoots you could imagine, they do it because they want to, and for me that's important. I'm sure that there are many dogs out there who may be a little sharper on the whistle, dogs who never ''run in'', I'd be lying if I said that none of my lads have not jumped the command when there's been a bird to pick, but I dont care, the dogs I've had, whilst perhaps not perfect, have all been happy, and have never felt anything but a gentle hand on them. I just wanted to point out that not all of us '' Old Gits''Are hard on our dogs.


And good for you


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

springerpete said:


> Having just browsed through this thread and seen a few comments relating to '' Older people'' using old fashioned methods such as those described. (Didn't see the video.) I'd just like to say that, as a very old person who has been around dogs, like Rona, for 40 yrs od more, I, and no one I know, uses methods so described. No dog of mine has ever been hard handled, the reason being that I want my dogs to work for me because they want to, not because they're afraid not to. This way I get dogs that are happy to put in a full day on one of the toughest woodcock shoots you could imagine, they do it because they want to, and for me that's important. I'm sure that there are many dogs out there who may be a little sharper on the whistle, dogs who never ''run in'', I'd be lying if I said that none of my lads have not jumped the command when there's been a bird to pick, but I dont care, the dogs I've had, whilst perhaps not perfect, have all been happy, and have never felt anything but a gentle hand on them. I just wanted to point out that not all of us '' Old Gits''Are hard on our dogs.


Great post


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2013)

> Paula07 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope there comes a day he trys that with a dog that wont tollerate his s***.
> ...


That's what I would worry about too...

I won't lie, there's a part of me that would like to see him try to something like that on my old rescue dane boy who doesn't suffer fools lightly.
It's a small part though. One, I'd never do that to my dog, and two, I'd rather someone like this trainer evolve and in turn share their new found knowledge with others of the same mindset.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Paula07 said:


> I hope there comes a day he tries that with a dog that won't tolerate his s***.


unfortunately, gundogs are generally biddable & tolerant, & that makes it unlikely that he'll encounter a dog
who treats the trainer just as nastily as the trainer treats the dog. :nonod: Of course, that begs the Q of what 
possible rationalization he could have for this harsh handling, since the dog would work to fetch the bumper 
for the sheer pleasure of it, given the opp, & be crushed to lose that opportunity as a consequence of
breaking the down / stay... Simple, safe, & pain-free. 

Clipping the dog to a tether & having another dog work while he lusted in his heart, watching enviously, 
would be a nonphysical but very potent punishment, for such gundogs.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Not going to jinx it, but there are certain people taking a keen interest in this bloke's video. :closedeyes:


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

MerlinsMum said:


> Dog abuser - YouTube


Just watched this. NO EXCUSE for handling a dog like that. All this "training" is great for this mans ego_ "Look how hes looking at me blah blah blah"_.

Disgusting, he seems so smug and proud of his "training ability"


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

God I'd like to hang that bloke up by something and it wouldn't be his ears!


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## Golden6 (Mar 2, 2013)

I haven't watched the video as I find things like this upsetting but having read through all your comments I really feel that this man either gets some sick kind of kick out of the way he treats dogs or he knows that he is being cruel and is trying to justify his actions to himself and others! 

I do not believe for one second that this man does not know that what he is doing is abuse. Saying that get gets better results s no justification!!!


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> unfortunately, gundogs are generally biddable & tolerant, & that makes it unlikely that he'll encounter a dog
> who treats the trainer just as nastily as the trainer treats the dog. :nonod: Of course, that begs the Q of what
> possible rationalization he could have for this harsh handling, since the dog would work to fetch the bumper
> for the sheer pleasure of it, given the opp, & be crushed to lose that opportunity as a consequence of
> ...


Realistically, your right. The chances of him encountering such dog is highly unlikely. Dogs are saints for putting up with some of the scum on this earth.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2013)

Hrm... perusing his fb page today has made for some interesting reading....


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> unfortunately, gundogs are generally biddable & tolerant, & that makes it unlikely that he'll encounter a dog
> who treats the trainer just as nastily as the trainer treats the dog. :nonod: Of course, that begs the Q of what
> possible rationalization he could have for this harsh handling, since the dog would work to fetch the bumper
> for the sheer pleasure of it, given the opp, & be crushed to lose that opportunity as a consequence of
> ...





Paula07 said:


> Realistically, your right. The chances of him encountering such dog is highly unlikely. Dogs are saints for putting up with some of the scum on this earth.


Maybe he should try it on some of the HPR breeds, I can think of a couple which would be far less tolerant of such treatment.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> Maybe he should try it on some of the HPR breeds, I can think of a couple which would be far less tolerant of such treatment.


I know a Goldie who fought back!

He had an electric collar after that 

My friend got hold of him after the "trainer"   had finished with him. Took my friend over a year to gain trust and stop being attacked when the dog thought he was under threat, and another year or so before the dog relaxed completely 

Absolute BAR STEWARDS


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Hrm... perusing his fb page today has made for some interesting reading....


Very interesting! 
I wonder if he health tests his breeding dogs and bitches! :lol:


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2013)

Tollisty said:


> Very interesting!
> I wonder if he health tests his breeding dogs and bitches! :lol:


LOL is right...

Let's just say the way he's choosing to handle this bad press speaks volumes. And none of it is very favorable...


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

I have seen this video and as a trainee gundog trainer, with my partner we have a gundog training business and know a good few trainers and just want to say that it really isnt indicative of how the vast majority work.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Rolosmum said:


> I have seen this video and as a trainee gundog trainer, with my partner we have a gundog training business and know a good few trainers and just want to say that it really isnt indicative of how the vast majority work.


But one is one too many and sadly I've seen a local gundog trainer lift a springer bitch by the loose skin either side of her neck, lift her to head height bawl in her face and propel her backwards.... all for retrieving too slowly, can't say I'd be in a rush to get back to him either.

The whole community has to stand up and say this is unacceptable.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Rolosmum said:


> I have seen this video and as a trainee gundog trainer, with my partner we have a gundog training business and know a good few trainers and just want to say that it really isnt indicative of how the vast majority work.


I have trained with a few gundog trainers over the last few years and I think there is probably only one who would never treat a dog that way. This particular guy is very fair and believes there is no use getting angry with the dog or even shouting at it as it's failings are that of the handler. I was once listening to a conversation where one trainer was telling his 'audience' about how to get the dog to trust you when you handle it onto a blind. You send it out for the blind when in actual fact there is nothing there for the dog to retrieve. When it fails, you give it what for whilst at the same time slipping a dummy down. Then you send the dog back out again, it find the dummy and it's supposed to think "bloody hell, it was here all along, i'm stupid and the human is brilliant". I personally dont believe in setting the dog up to fail in a big way like that, and then punishing it when it does fail.

I'm afraid in my limited experience, I have seen far, far more harsh handling of dogs than fair and just handling. And thats not just coming from the trainers either, the trainees are all for those methods as well.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> I was once listening to a conversation where one trainer was telling his 'audience' about how to get the dog to trust you when you handle it onto a blind. *You send it out for the blind when in actual fact there is nothing there for the dog to retrieve. When it fails, you give it what for whilst at the same time slipping a dummy down*. Then you send the dog back out again, it find the dummy and it's supposed to think "bloody hell, it was here all along, i'm stupid and the human is brilliant". I personally dont believe in setting the dog up to fail in a big way like that, and then punishing it when it does fail..


This is the complete opposite of anything I've ever read or seen


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

rona said:


> This is the complete opposite of anything I've ever read or seen


It's supposed to teach the dog that you know everything and it should trust what you say. Personally, i've always been taught that you dont allow the dog to fail as it loses faith, so you must always ensure that it finds what it's looking for, especially if the dog is young or inexperienced. It was the first time i'd ever heard anybody setting the dog up to fail.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> It's supposed to teach the dog that you know everything and it should trust what you say. Personally, i've always been taught that you dont allow the dog to fail as it loses faith, so you must always ensure that it finds what it's looking for, especially if the dog is young or inexperienced. It was the first time i'd ever heard anybody setting the dog up to fail.


I've never seen that or heard of it, not even sure how it would work, it's just bullying your dog for the sake of it, absolutely no need if you train your dogs to go out on a blind, you just build up distance??


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> It's supposed to teach the dog that you know everything and it should trust what you say. Personally, i've always been taught that you dont allow the dog to fail as it loses faith, so you must always ensure that it finds what it's looking for, especially if the dog is young or inexperienced. It was the first time i'd ever heard anybody setting the dog up to fail.


Well yes. If my young dogs have hunted for a ball/dummy and seem to be get sluggish or fed up, I've always dropped another and made sure they found it.

It's the way it's always been done in my world and knowledge


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Hrm... perusing his fb page today has made for some interesting reading....


how do you find his facebook page - didn't work when I clicked on the link.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2013)

moonviolet said:


> The whole community has to stand up and say this is unacceptable.


Yes.

If this guy's fb is any indication, he's not at all alone.

JMO, but instead of saying "oh this doesn't happen in MY circle," the gundog community needs to face the fact that this is more common than you would like to believe/admit, and take necessary steps to stop it from happening, be that through education, codes of conduct, etc.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Yes.
> 
> If this guy's fb is any indication, he's not at all alone.
> 
> JMO, but instead of saying "oh this doesn't happen in MY circle," the gundog community needs to face the fact that this is more common than you would like to believe/admit, and take necessary steps to stop it from happening, be that through education, codes of conduct, etc.


To be fair, some of us do, I meet up with a few people and we organise local training for beginners. I don't doubt things like this do happen, but I don't associate with people who treat their dogs like this, I have no desire to be any part of it.

Edited to add, I'm also a member of a number of gundog clubs in the UK, and they do not at all condone hard handling, ie anything hands on at all. They are very much about positive training methods and finding ways for dogs to succeed.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Yes.
> 
> If this guy's fb is any indication, he's not at all alone.
> 
> JMO, but instead of saying "oh this doesn't happen in MY circle," the gundog community needs to face the fact that this is more common than you would like to believe/admit, and take necessary steps to stop it from happening, be that through education, codes of conduct, etc.


I started training with a national gundog training organisation. Their rules stipulated they only had trainers who used positive methods and harsh handling wasnt tolerated. Ok, maybe the trainer didnt use harsh methods on the dogs he was training, or even advocate the use of them, but I certainly saw him pick his spaniels up by the skin on their necks, hold them in front of him and shout in their faces before throwing them back to the floor.

In fact, the group I train with now state on their forms that harsh handling will not be tolerated yet that is all I see week after week. Maybe my version of harsh and theirs is different


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> I started training with a national gundog training organisation. Their rules stipulated they only had trainers who used positive methods and harsh handling wasnt tolerated. Ok, maybe the trainer didnt use harsh methods on the dogs he was training, or even advocate the use of them, but I certainly saw him pick his spaniels up by the skin on their necks, hold them in front of him and shout in their faces before throwing them back to the floor.
> 
> *In fact, the group I train with now state on their forms that harsh handling will not be tolerated yet that is all I see week after week. Maybe my version of harsh and theirs is different :confused*:


And I think that is probably where the problem is.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I can honestly say that the training groups I'm involved with just wouldn't tolerate that at all. The *hardest* thing we do is put dogs back on the spot, and it's not at all what you describe, dogs are taken back to where they were sat, and told firmly (verbally) to sit/stay. There's no point in handling your dog in the way that's being described, because if you touch your dog in that way in a working test or field trial, you are instantly out.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I can honestly say that the training groups I'm involved with just wouldn't tolerate that at all. The *hardest* thing we do is put dogs back on the spot, and it's not at all what you describe, dogs are taken back to where they were sat, and told firmly (verbally) to sit/stay. There's no point in handling your dog in the way that's being described, because if you touch your dog in that way in a working test or field trial, you are instantly out.


You can't use clickers, food, choke chains or prong collars in the obedience ring either but people still use them to train. Just because you can't do it in competition doesn't mean it can't be used in training.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Oh wow.....this type of thing never happens with any other type of trainers does it...it's only them bloody gundog people   

If you think that then you need to open your eyes!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> You can't use clickers, food, choke chains or prong collars in the obedience ring either but people still use them to train. Just because you can't do it in competition doesn't mean it can't be used in training.


No, but speaking from experience, I can honestly say the people I train with do not use the sort of training in the video. Yes, I have come across people like that, I just don't want anything to do with them. Are they in a majority? Not in the experience I have with the people I know, maybe I know the wrong, or right people, depending on which way you look at it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> I started training with a national gundog training organisation. Their rules stipulated they only had trainers who used positive methods and harsh handling wasnt tolerated. Ok, maybe the trainer didnt use harsh methods on the dogs he was training, or even advocate the use of them, but I certainly saw him pick his spaniels up by the skin on their necks, hold them in front of him and shout in their faces before throwing them back to the floor.
> 
> In fact, the group I train with now state on their forms that harsh handling will not be tolerated yet that is all I see week after week. Maybe my version of harsh and theirs is different


Does depend what you class as harsh. I want to cry for some of those dogs I've seen in videos on here that are made to repeat and repeat a trick that they are obviously bored rigid with. Mental abuse is just another sort of abuse.
See plenty of that in a pet world too


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rona said:


> Oh wow.....this type of thing never happens with any other type of trainers does it...it's only them bloody gundog people
> 
> If you think that then you need to open your eyes!!


I would think it happens in all disciplines to be honest. I know of agility people who use extremely harsh methods, flyball people, obedience people so it's not limited to any one sport. And of course there are the pet owners who see certain trainers doing this sort of thing and copy it. Grabbing a dog by the skin at the side of the neck and lifting its front legs off the floor is something I see a lot of


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> Oh wow.....this type of thing never happens with any other type of trainers does it...it's only them bloody gundog people
> 
> If you think that then you need to open your eyes!!


But we're not talking about them now.

How often on this forum are the methods and equipment used in pet dog training discussed. No one has said any other area is squeaky clean and without the use of force or intimidation.

I just happened that this thread is about gundog training ... inspired by video of a gundog trainer. lets not try to deflect the focus.

I know of a pet dog trainer that broke the leg of a GSD pinning it down in a class, for this and other offences he has been banned from keeping dogs for life.

lets face it CM has had plenty of thread time here too.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2013)

rona said:


> Oh wow.....this type of thing never happens with any other type of trainers does it...it's only them bloody gundog people
> 
> If you think that then you need to open your eyes!!


I can't speak for the UK, but in the US, yes, the gun dog trainers and the breed ring (and groomers) seem to be the furthest behind when it comes to embracing more humane methods. 
Honestly, even military and police dog training is more open to change than the gundog community. 
Not gonna lie, the obedience ring is not a pretty place either, but there is a lot of crossover from rally and agility that is helping to change things.

Obviously the above is all general statements, not meant to define any individual in each area.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Honestly, even military and police dog training is more open to change than the gundog community.


Disagree with this, because it has to be remembered that the gundog community is huge and very varied. I can't get onto the facebook page, but would doubt I have heard of this guy as I don't have spaniels. But, there are trainers of all sorts and a large growing number of gundog trainers that are using clicker training. Helen Philips and Philippa Williams are both very influential (Philippa's Levengyhl kennels has made up many FTCH), and trainers who have trained with them are now changing their methods. Even before them, positive methods were widely used - at least as much as the harsh methods.

The thing to remember is it is a very varied community. From those who train from books, who may go to club training, who train with friends, who may go to a professional trainer etc. You have those who want to do nothing more than rough shoot, to those who want to have the next FTCH and everything in between.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

No one is denying there are some great gundog trainers out there but increasing awareness that ( like in other areas) all trainers are not equally good has to be a good thing.

Mental cruelty has been mentioned regarding other forms of training, Do not be fooled into thing physically punishing a dog stops at the physical, it also causes dogs to shut down and only do exactly what they are directed to do in a form of learned helpless or to switch off training all together.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> You can't use clickers, food, choke chains or prong collars in the obedience ring either but people still use them to train. Just because you can't do it in competition doesn't mean it can't be used in training.


Sadly you can use 'check' chains in the obedience ring.
and most people leave food in a pot just outside the ring to reward as soon as the round is finished.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Tollisty said:


> Sadly you can use 'check' chains in the obedience ring.
> and most people leave food in a pot just outside the ring to reward as soon as the round is finished.


But neither can be used in the ring itself as they would be in training.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> But neither can be used in the ring itself as they would be in training.


Your dog can be wearing a check chain, and you could use it between exercises. Although alot of judges would mark you for rough handling!


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Disagree with this, because it has to be remembered that the gundog community is huge and very varied. I can't get onto the facebook page, but would doubt I have heard of this guy as I don't have spaniels. But, there are trainers of all sorts and a large growing number of gundog trainers that are using clicker training. Helen Philips and Philippa Williams are both very influential (Philippa's Levengyhl kennels has made up many FTCH), and trainers who have trained with them are now changing their methods. Even before them, positive methods were widely used - at least as much as the harsh methods.
> 
> The thing to remember is it is a very varied community. From those who train from books, who may go to club training, who train with friends, who may go to a professional trainer etc. You have those who want to do nothing more than rough shoot, to those who want to have the next FTCH and everything in between.


I'm talking about the US, not the UK. Clearly I can't speak for the UK gun dog community, but I can speak for what exists in the US. 
As already mentioned on this thread, you'd be hard pressed to find a US gundog trainer who does not use e-collars for one. The ones who don't exist of course, but they are true anomalies. Ear pinches and toe pinches are still widely used as well. 
You are far more likely to find a clicker trainer in the bite-sport community than in the gun dog world. I'm speaking in generalities of course, but in general, the military and police forces appear more open to changing their ways. I think it's in part because they also do so much detection work and that has to be force-free or you'll ruin the dog, so they have more experience with the idea of letting the dog figure things out. And I think it's also in part because of bleed-over from the bite sports world where lure/reward and clicker training has really trumped more traditional methods as far as the dog it produces.



Tollisty said:


> Your dog can be wearing a check chain, and you could use it between exercises. Although alot of judges would mark you for rough handling!


In the AKC any corrections in the ring will get you dismissed from the ring. Granted, that doesn't stop folks from leaving the ring and checking the snot out of their dog, but there is no checking allowed in the ring. Besides, after the first novice class your dog is going to be off leash anyway. 
In rally you can't even touch the dog.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I'm talking about the US, not the UK. Clearly I can't speak for the UK gun dog community, but I can speak for what exists in the US.
> As already mentioned on this thread, you'd be hard pressed to find a US gundog trainer who does not use e-collars for one. The ones who don't exist of course, but they are true anomalies. Ear pinches and toe pinches are still widely used as well.
> You are far more likely to find a clicker trainer in the bite-sport community than in the gun dog world. I'm speaking in generalities of course, but in general, the military and police forces appear more open to changing their ways. I think it's in part because they also do so much detection work and that has to be force-free or you'll ruin the dog, so they have more experience with the idea of letting the dog figure things out. And I think it's also in part because of bleed-over from the bite sports world where lure/reward and clicker training has really trumped more traditional methods as far as the dog it produces.


Yes, I can understand the difficulty. From what I know, the use of the e-collar and force-fetch has actually removed a lot of the natural working ability of gundogs in the US. It's one of the reasons why our working Labradors are highly prized over there. There are a few who are importing our bloodlines and methods (the average working lab would be too sensitive to respond well to e-collar methods)


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Yes, I can understand the difficulty. From what I know, *the use of the e-collar and force-fetch has actually removed a lot of the natural working ability of gundogs in the US. * It's one of the reasons why our working Labradors are highly prized over there. There are a few who are importing our bloodlines and methods (the average working lab would be too sensitive to respond well to e-collar methods)


Yes, it very much has. Robert Millner has a good article about it.

There is another oldie but goodie article about using e-collars on herding dogs and the same danger of losing the natural working ability because of forceful training methods that mask the dog's real abilities. It's to me a fascinating discussion but we can't haven it here because it centers around e-collar use.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> *Bold* added as emphasis -
> 
> *I can't speak for the UK*, but *in the US*, yes, the gun dog trainers & the breed ring
> (and groomers) seem... furthest behind, when it comes to embracing more humane methods.
> ...


Agreed - 
the military finally got the message, & K9-cops are making real progress, but the gundog world in the USA 
is still as pain-addicted as the Marquis De Sade. Stuff from 1930 is still worshipped as absolute truth;
at least, unlike dog-fighting #$%@&!s, gundog trainers & handlers don't lace the dogs' food with gunpowder.
one small mercy...


rocco33 said:


> Disagree with this, because it has to be remembered that the gundog community is huge & very varied.
> ... [SNIP]
> ...there are trainers of all sorts, & a large growing number of gundog trainers [use] clicker training.


Clicker-training for gundogs *in the USA* is barely beginning; the overwhelming majority of gundogs
are trained with hefty doses of aversives, from choke-, prong-, & [U know what] collars, to toe hitches,
ear-pinches, & other forced-fetch classics. :nonod:

toe-hitch session: 1985; 
NOTICE it was posted in 2007 by his adult-son, who 
brags that 'forced fetch hasn't changed' - 
Force Fetch Training 1985 Pt 1 - YouTube

ear-pinch session:
NOTICE the dog wears a buckle-collar [purple], an unmentionable [Intl orange], AND a choke-chain, 
while his left pinna, facing the camera, is smashed between the trainer's thumb & a FOURTH collar of leather;
he wraps the lower end of the dog's ear around the strap & clamps his thumb on it like a vise, shutting off 
circulation & very quickly causing severe pain. The ear will often be swollen & tender for several days, 
& may form a hematoma that must be lanced, drained, & stitched with mesh to keep it from refilling.
Intro to force fetch..Ear Pinch Method - YouTube

If U think i'm in any way exaggerating, type FORCE FETCH into UTube's search box, & see what U get;
i see ~20,400 results, which may not ALL be gundog training, but with 20 per page, only one clip on the 
first 3 pages isn't forced-retrieve training for gundogs. 

throwing a dog who doesn't honor another dog's point, or who leaps forward to bust birds from the brush,
by putting on a body-harness & long-line, then violently jerking the dog off her / his feet with a sudden yank, 
is still common.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Never even heard of force fetch until I came on here with you Americans.

Soft mouth is one of the main breeding criteria in the UK for gundogs, what use is a retrieving dog that chomps it's retrieves  Harsh treatment is only more likely to create a hard mouth when the nervous dog stresses as it approaches it's owner.
This is what most (not all unfortunately) uk gundog people work by. If a dog is hard mouthed you don't force it to be soft or give up it's find. In most instances you keep as a pet or you rehome. 
It's something you can see fairly early in a dogs life. It doesn't happen often now luckily, due to selective breeding.
Our dogs are bred with the instinct to complete the task asked of them, no need for force anything................

Those videos are horrendous and if I'd seen anything like that or even heard of it in our gundog fraternity I wouldn't have stayed in that world for all those years. 
Yes I've seen the odd pillock but generally all I've witnessed is people who love and respect their dogs out have a wonderful day together, be that shooting, trialing or just having fun at a scurry


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

It really is a difficult subject. Those people that use the harsher methods can see nothing wrong with it and there is no doubt in the US it happens even more.
I was looking at a video someone had put on of Tennessee Walking Horses. It was unbelievable. As you have noticed I am not totally against some harder methods (never harsh though) but this was frightful. The pain those horses were in was unbelievable,they could hardly move. One of the methods was even known as soring. And yet the video had been put on by proud owners.
It happens in this country in other ways too. I was talking to a well known and respected horse trainer. He is lovely and when he is teaching he is never harsh in his methods. But he was very matter of factly telling me how he has sorted out various horses and I was shocked.

When I first started training dogs over 40 years ago methods were different but dogs were happy and enjoyed and understood what they were being asked. But like handling children there is not one fit for all. I still remember when I first took club beginner classes and there was a bloke taking the one after mine. He had a GSD who he was fairly hard on and he treated every single dog in the class the same way - it was horrible to watch. He was not cruel, he was not harsh but his method of handling was totally inappropriate for 90 percent of the dogs. 

Surely the first thing you do when training any animal is to assess what it needs and treat it as an individual. Also admit to yourself if you read it wrong and start again.
I am lazy with training my dogs at the moment and am not taking classes but I have been training a young pony. I am not afraid to admit that I had a stand up fight with him. It was not nice to have to do but someone was going to get badly hurt if he did not learn respect. After a couple of minutes he backed off and he has been an angel ever since. If I had done the same thing with the last youngster I would not have had a pony left that could ever be handled again.

I have never used clicker training but I imagine that with the 'modern' methods of training with both horses and dogs they can be applied to any animal and either work or not but do no harm so an average owner who is not able to read their animal cannot do harm and may well have great success.

Sorry, very off the subject of gun dog training but I do feel it can be applied to the training of any animal for anything.

oh and by the way, sheep dog trainers can be VERY hard. I know someone who was having problems with a dog not recalling - he went out with the dog and a gun and said if it disobeyed it would be the last time it did it. That is not illegal either, he had a gun licence and you are allowed to humanely destroy your own animal as far as I know. I had a dog from him once and it was in such a disgraceful state I had to bath it before I could bear to put it in the van to take to the sheep. Sadly it was totally wild when it worked so I had to give it back as I did not want to start training it from scratch. I felt awful putting it back to him and seeing it chained in filth again. Yet he is well respected.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2013)

rona said:


> Harsh treatment is only more likely to create a hard mouth when the nervous dog stresses as it approaches it's owner.


Absolutely! And the crazy thing is that the better (US) gundog trainers know this and are very careful about how they apply pressure via e-collar or ear pinch to lessen the chance of making the dog clamp down. 
I say crazy, because to me, if you know the tool/method causes hard mouth issues, why don't you just NO USE it?!?!

I have had SO many frustrating conversations with folks who use force fetch, and their entire argument is based on "at some point the dog must know that the retrieve is not optional, that he HAS to retrieve." There are even many trainers who have embraced the motivational retrieve, but they'll still "finish" it with force just to make sure the dog knows it's not optional. The rationale being, unless the dog knows there is an "or else" he will never be 100% reliable on the retrieve.

The irony of course, is that you can go to any obedience trial, field trial, IPO trial, etc., and see failed retrieves. IOW, force fetch trained dogs fail the retrieve all the time for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they're sentient creatures with a mind of their own and no amount of force will ever change that.

Suzanne Clothier wrote an entire article on the justifications for using force in the retrieve. One of my favorite parts "The reality is that the worst that will happen when a dog fails to retrieve is this: he fails to retrieve."

My muttdog has a clicker trained retrieve. He is not a natural retriever at all. He loves to chase things and kill them, not bring them back to me. But since learning a clicker trained retrieve, he offers it. The other day I was in the training building chatting with a few friends, and one of them dropped a pen. Bates looked at me and then at the pen. I thought "huh... let's see what happens..." I told him to get it, and sure enough, he went over to the pen, figured out how to pick it up (he has an undershot jaw, and is missing a lower canine, so that was no easy task), and he brought it back to me in a straight front. Love it.

This is Suzanne Clothier's article:
Reliability and the Retrieve: Justifying the Ear Pinch? | Suzanne Clothier


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Absolutely! And the crazy thing is that the better (US) gundog trainers know this and are very careful about how they apply pressure via e-collar or ear pinch to lessen the chance of making the dog clamp down.
> I say crazy, because to me, if you know the tool/method causes hard mouth issues, why don't you just NO USE it?!?!
> 
> I have had SO many frustrating conversations with folks who use force fetch, and their entire argument is based on "at some point the dog must know that the retrieve is not optional, that he HAS to retrieve." There are even many trainers who have embraced the motivational retrieve, but they'll still "finish" it with force just to make sure the dog knows it's not optional. The rationale being, unless the dog knows there is an "or else" he will never be 100% reliable on the retrieve.
> ...


Yes, and breeding is considered key in the UK. Gundog work requires a balance between obedience and the dog working independently and using it's brain so natural ability, temperament and biddability is key. Quite honestly, I've never had a lab that didn't retrieve naturally, ever. So that part doesn't need to be trained. It's the control when they are out there doing what comes naturally to them. I guess using an ecollar is the easy and lazy way to achieve this rather than building the partnership between you and the dog. I notice the US also expect their gundogs to be 'ready' much earlier than we would here.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> But we're not talking about them now.
> 
> How often on this forum are the methods and equipment used in pet dog training discussed. No one has said any other area is squeaky clean and without the use of force or intimidation.
> 
> ...


Reading that has made me so sad. Poor dog, thank goodness the ba$tard has been banned from keeping dogs. I despair at anyone who could do that to their dog.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Reading that has made me so sad. Poor dog, thank goodness the ba$tard has been banned from keeping dogs. I despair at anyone who could do that to their dog.


what about the person who watched them do that to their dog?

People, who do not research for themselves, do trust the trainer they are paying and believe what they say and do to be the right thing to do and not damaging to their dog. This is why trainers who behave in like the one I've mentioned and the one this thread, whatever field in they maybe, in need to be brought to account not swept under the rug. Weed out them out and they can't tar all the good ones .


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Some years ago, watching a hunt-trial on TV, a male Lab who'd been doing brilliantly was being whistle-halted
over & over, to redirect him on a blind retrieve. His point-lead was eroding, & the dog's confidence was, also - 
tho he stopped cold & sat with acute attention to find where he was to look / scent next, his tail was lowered
[it had been up & waving eagerly thru-out, now it was level with his spine & still], & he seemed frantic, not
happy and methodical in his casting.

The handler decided to whistle him in, regretfully, & he came running back, then suddenly took a hard left,
diving toward the spectators off-camera, raced over to a wire-mesh cage containing pheasants, & *began to 
drag it backward to his handler, with his teeth clamped around the upper corner of the cage; the wire had to 
be cutting his gums, the cage caught on the grass & on rough spots in the ground, but he wouldn't give up.*

That brilliant, biddable dog, so happy to be doing what he was literally born to do, was terrified of returning
to his handler *without something in his mouth -* & the birds to be set out for the next upland segment, 
as this was ducks & marsh, were his 'something'. :nonod:

The gallery erupted in laughter, & the commentator made some lighthearted remark about the dog "finding 
a substitute", but i felt sick at heart; it was proof positive that he'd been trained using force-fetch, & his
desperation to avoid punishment was awful to see. I'm sure the handler was embarrassed, but the cameranik,
who'd had to re-position to find the dog when he darted off on his detour, went back to the next contender
before we saw the resolution - the trial went on to the next dog & handler.

I wonder if the handler punished him for trying so desperately to retrieve a 4-ft long wire crate with 4 to 6
pheasants across rough ground. I'd bet he did; i doubt the handler thought it was funny. I'd also bet he didn't 
find the dog's desperation heartbreaking, but i did.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Some years ago, watching a hunt-trial on TV, a male Lab who'd been doing brilliantly was being whistle-halted
> over & over, to redirect him on a blind retrieve. His point-lead was eroding, & the dog's confidence was, also -
> tho he stopped cold & sat with acute attention to find where he was to look / scent next, his tail was lowered
> [it had been up & waving eagerly thru-out, now it was level with his spine & still], & he seemed frantic, not
> ...


That is so sad. From what little I know, the US trials are more obedience orientated.

By comparison, a wonderful retrieve from Phil Parkin's dog FTCh Twixwood Shooting Star of Fernshot in the championships a few years ago. The dog was sent on a hard runner (lightly injured bird) which you can see at the beginning of the video. The dog follows the scent with no interference from the handler - doing what this dog was bred for. It was under control if need by, but it did all the work itself - keeping on the scent for around 200yards.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> By comparison, a wonderful retrieve from Phil Parkin's dog, FTCh Twixwood Shooting Star of Fernshot,
> in the championships a few years ago. The dog was sent on a hard runner (lightly injured bird) which
> you can see at the beginning of the video. The dog follows the scent with no interference from the handler -
> doing what this dog was bred for. It was under control if need by, but it did all the work itself -
> keeping on the scent for around 200-yards.


a gorgeous performance -

Rocco, do U know how this dog was trained? I'd love to know if that was reward-training, 
so that i can pass on the clip, on a thread where a certain aversive is being bitterly defended 
[a UK trainer, BTW - he says he trains dogs in falconry?... Initials CC].


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> a gorgeous performance -
> 
> Rocco, do U know how this dog was trained? I'd love to know if that was reward-training,
> so that i can pass on the clip, on a thread where a certain aversive is being bitterly defended
> [a UK trainer, BTW - he says he trains dogs in falconry?... Initials CC].


Surely you can tell by the dogs body language  :laugh:

Sorry.....couldn't resist


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I don't sorry - I can hazard a guess and do know someone who's trained with him but don't know sufficient to say for sure. I know he likes to bring his dogs on slowly using positive methods but I can't say that he would never correct the dog, so can't be specific.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I don't, sorry -
> I can hazard a guess and do know someone who's trained with him, but don't know sufficient to say
> for sure. I know he likes to bring his dogs on slowly using positive methods but I can't say that he would
> never correct the dog, so can't be specific.


thank U kindly - 
I've already posted both of these clips of gundog displays from Crufts,

Gundog Display - Adrian and Caroline Slater - Kipperidge Gundogs - Crufts 2013 - YouTube

Gundog Display - Philippa Williams - Levenghyl Gundogs - Crufts 2013 - YouTube


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I have had SO many frustrating conversations with folks who use force fetch, and their entire argument is based on "at some point the dog must know that the retrieve is not optional, that he HAS to retrieve." There are even many trainers who have embraced the motivational retrieve, but they'll still "finish" it with force just to make sure the dog knows it's not optional. The rationale being, unless the dog knows there is an "or else" he will never be 100% reliable on the retrieve.


This is the bit I really don't get  Even with using positive methods - and clicker as an example, the clicker is used to train the obedience side of gundog training. The heel work, the sit, the stop whistle and steadiness, the directions and even if clicker isn't used, positive methods can still teach this. There comes a point however, when the retrieve itself becomes the reward - why would a gundog that has the desire to retrieve running through it's veins not want to retrieve. You want a dog who will keep going to retrieve even if they don't find it at first. The video is a good example, because sugar beet is not easy. The scent swirls all over the place and it's noisy - the dog has to work hard and not give up, but I wouldn't expect anything else from a dog that loves retrieving. With training comes the confidence too. And as Rona has said, a forced delivery is the easiest way to create a hard mouth.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Emphasis added in *bold* -
> 
> This is the bit I really don't get [proofing with aversives]
> 
> ...


yes - 
in any reward-training, any behavior that has a history of reward *itself* becomes rewarding;
e-g, If the dog is taught to sit with treats as a lure & reward, the lure can be quickly faded to a hand-cue 
or verbal cue, the treats can be readily reduced or other rewards than food substituted, & physical 
rewards can even be replaced entirely by praise - but the cue & its attached behavior will continue to 
be rewarding, happy events, *because* they have a past history of happy things associated.

That's why if something scary happens, a quick & easy way to help reassure & calm an animal is to ASK 
for a highly-fluent, familiar behavior, with a deep history of reward. The mere sight of that familiar 
signal, or sound of a familiar cue, is something to hold onto in the current fright, & it carries all sorts 
of well-established, glad associations.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> yes -
> in any reward-training, any behavior that has a history of reward *itself* becomes rewarding;
> e-g, If the dog is taught to sit with treats as a lure & reward, the lure can be quickly faded to a hand-cue
> or verbal cue, the treats can be readily reduced or other rewards than food substituted, & physical
> ...


But our gundogs do not need to be taught to retrieve........it's just something they do.
Yes the finer points like the delivery may need tweaking if you are going to compete, but to go, fetch and bring back is something most do naturally


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> But our gundogs do not need to be taught to retrieve...


i didn't refer only to retrieving, nor only to gundogs - 
i referred to any behavior with a history of reinforcement.
:yesnod:

& BTW, as Ouesi's post about her muttdog attests, many non-Retrievers can become 
very reliable, even addicted 'fetch-monsters', with pos-R training.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i didn't refer only to retrieving, nor only to gundogs -
> i referred to any behavior with a history of reinforcement.
> :yesnod:
> 
> ...


I'm well aware of that but the highlighted text you were referring to from Rocco33 post was 

What I was saying is our gun dogs don't need training to do what come naturally. The fact that other dogs can also love retrieving is not in question


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> I'm well aware of that, but the highlighted text you [referred] to from Rocco33's post was





rocco33 said:


> There comes a point however, when *the [trained behavior] itself becomes the reward*...


There ya go! :thumbup: All better. Rocco wasn't talking about puppy fetch games or instinct, 
he spoke of training & the result of training.

the point is that any *reinforced* behavior - one that has been rewarding in the past - BECOMES 
rewarding; whatever it is, sit on cue, settle nicely without a cue in the vet's waiting-room, anything, 
anywhere, that has paid-off or had happy associations, becomes self-rewarding.

The longer the history of reinforcement, the more potent the self-reward associated with that behavior.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> There ya go! :thumbup: All better. Rocco wasn't talking about puppy fetch games or instinct,
> he spoke of training & the result of training.
> 
> the point is that any *reinforced* behavior - one that has been rewarding in the past - BECOMES
> ...


I see your point, although I was saying what Rona is saying. Our dogs are bred to love retrieving - therefore a retrieve is always a reward, always something positive. I guess it goes with my point about the ecollar and forced training methods that actually cause the breed to lose these natural abilities. Similar to the show dogs that have lost the natural abilities. Doesn't mean they can't be trained, but the are a world away from a natural working gundog. That is why so many will use positive methods, even those who use corrections later, will still start with positive methods. All you're doing is starting with the right raw materials and moulding it to how you want.

I'm not saying harsh methods aren't used here, there are. And I've seen some harsh correction that has made me want to take the dog home with me, too. But generally, positive training methods are used and used more and more.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Our dogs are bred to love retrieving - therefore a retrieve is always a reward, always something positive.


i know loads of USA-bred, pet-lines Labs & Goldens, as well as show-bred VHDs like Weims or GSPs, 
who don't have a single hunt-titled dog in the past 10-generations, but they still meet U at the door with
a stuffed toy, ball, bumper, or chew-toy in their mouths, & parade around with it for the next 10-minutes, 
:lol: celebrating the homecoming.

Fetch & oral-fixations are very common in the retrievers, or gundog breeds in general - the tendency to retrieve 
goes very deep, & it's not restricted to hunting-lines, altho for competition level, that's a better option than a 
show- or pet-lines pup.

What surprised me, some 3 or 4 years back, was a study which found that *unless* Cockers were allowed 
an opportunity to fetch =Before= the pups were 7-WO, they wouldn't become good retrievers later without 
massive help. That means breeders are key, for Cockers to bloom. In the USA, they're rarely hunting-dogs, 
probably 85 or 90% or more are pets; but it would be nice to have them adore a happy game of fetch, 
for if nothing else, it's wonderful to exercise a dog in a small area.


rocco33 said:


> I'm not saying harsh methods aren't used here, there are. And I've seen some harsh correction that
> has made me want to take the dog home with me, too. But generally, positive training methods
> are used, & used more and more.


thank DoG for that! :thumbup: I'll be thrilled when i don't have to caution ppl to please check the methods 
& tools of a trainer before engaging them to work with Ur dog.

I can't believe it's been more than 40-years since i trained my first puppy in 4-H, & we're STILL using 
choke-chains, prong-collars, & other unmentionables, Plus! we still have folks who subscribe to the 'wolf pack,
dominance theory, dogs are rebellious, they're trying to take over as leader'... hooey, more than 30-yrs 
after Mech disproved his own theory. :nonod: Some memes are apparently un-killable by logic.

i honestly thought that we'd have stopped manufacturing 'training collars' that need batteries by 1990, 
at the latest, & that only some old-fashioned die-hards would still use them. I was wrong - & i'm so very,
very sorry.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

A US president got voted out of office after picking a dog up by its ears.

President Johnson's Dogs

And quite right, too.rrr:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i know loads of USA-bred, pet-lines Labs & Goldens, as well as show-bred VHDs like Weims or GSPs,
> who don't have a single hunt-titled dog in the past 10-generations, but they still meet U at the door with
> a stuffed toy, ball, bumper, or chew-toy in their mouths, & parade around with it for the next 10-minutes,
> :lol: celebrating the homecoming.
> ...


Unless you've actually seen the difference, it's a very difficult thing to grasp. The void between a show/pet bred dog playing ball and a well bred gundogs drive to retrieve.

It's even harder to explain.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> i know loads of USA-bred, pet-lines Labs & Goldens, as well as show-bred VHDs like Weims or GSPs,
> who don't have a single hunt-titled dog in the past 10-generations, but they still meet U at the door with
> a stuffed toy, ball, bumper, or chew-toy in their mouths, & parade around with it for the next 10-minutes,
> celebrating the homecoming.
> ...


Yes, they do often carry things I agree and they retain certain traits. As Rona says, unless you've experienced it you can't understand it - look how many show folk have argued their dogs could do anything a working dog could . The difference in the time it takes to train is marked - the methods used have to be reinforced far more, and probably most importantly, they lack the drive. Yes, they will retrieve, but the determination to keep hunting until a bird is found is lacking.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lostbear said:


> A US president got voted out of office after picking a dog up by its ears.
> 
> President Johnson's Dogs
> 
> And quite right, too.rrr:


actually, Lyndon finished his term; he arrived as POTUS only because Kennedy was assassinated.
Then he ran for Prez on his own, with Humphrey as Veep. He served from November 22, 1963 
to January 20, 1969.
He graduated from Southwest Texas State Teachers College in 1930, & was known as a down-N-dirty 
campaigner in politics for many years in Texas, & a 'good ol' boy'.  The down-home persona 
masked a very driven, clever man. He did love his dogs, but hefting his Beagles was a truly stoopid 
thing to do - as well as being blatantly hurtful to the dogs.

Her, the F Beagle, died after she swallowed a rock while on the White House lawn; Him, the M, was hit 
by a limo in the White House drive, & killed instantly. He was chasing a squirrel.
LBJ's Beagle Run Over and Killed in White House Driveway | Ghosts of DC

His favorite was probly Yuki - a mutt found by daughter Lucy at a gas-station on T-day in 1966.
Yuki would sing with him...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> ... unless you've experienced it, you can't understand it...


umm, i think i've mentioned my younger-sis for some unknown reason, bought a hunting-lines Lab?...

 Believe me, i've experienced retriever-mania. Her dog is a bloody pain-in-the-arse,
i wouldn't take him free, with all his food, vet-bills, etc, paid for his lifespan.
He can't settle in the house, paces, whines under his breath, incessantly hunts for moving objects, 
chases birds, golf-balls, bikes, horseback riders, joggers, falling leaves, & if he's desperate, points of light 
or moving shadows - the curtain waving when the window's ajar, etc.

he will fetch till yer arm falls off, & be ready to do it again in 20-mins - as soon as he catches 
his breath, & gets a drink. Brody is a maniac. He is jogged for miles, swims every day that the water 
isn't literally frozen-over all year round, & carries anything smaller than his head. 


rocco33 said:


> ...look how many show folk [argue that] their dogs could do anything a working dog could.


& there are many who have dual titles. :001_smile:

Yes, there are show-line dogs who can't do diddly of the traditional job for their breed - 
there are others who do very nicely. It's not cut & dried - many Flab-Labs of the blocky Brit type 
from show-lines are hopeless as hunters, but lots of show or pet bred Labs are great pot-hunters 
in pet-families, they don't compete for titles, but they bring in the game.

if i wanted a dog to get an FTCH, i'd get one from hunting lines; if i wanted a dog to hunt with me, 
i'd get a healthy pup from screened parents who was sociable, biddable, & would chase a toy.
After that, i could install what i wanted.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> umm, i think i've mentioned my younger-sis for some unknown reason, bought a hunting-lines Lab?...
> 
> Believe me, i've experienced retriever-mania. Her dog is a bloody pain-in-the-arse,
> i wouldn't take him free, with all his food, vet-bills, etc, paid for his lifespan.
> ...


Exactly - that is everything I have heard of regarding American working bred labs. But British working labs are almost another breed again. Steadiness, quietness (the smallest whine will get a dog eliminated here - it won't in the US) are all bred for.

Have a read of this - it may go some way of explaining the difference, why they are highly prized and why they are being imported.

Wildwind British Labradors

http://www.wildwindbritlabs.com/training.php

and another one 

http://www.uklabs.com/about_british_labs.php

http://www.uklabs.com/about_british_field_trials.php



> i'd get a healthy pup from screened parents who was sociable, biddable, & would chase a toy.
> After that, i could install what i wanted


.

Ah, but that's the whole point of our british working labs - you don't need to install anything - it's already there in the genetics


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Exactly - that is everything I have heard of regarding American working bred Labs.
> But British working Labs are almost another breed again. Steadiness, quietness (the smallest whine
> will get a dog eliminated here - it won't in the US) are all bred for.


if i had UNLIMITED funds & wanted a great Lab, i'd get a canoe Lab from Robt Milner - 
Robert Milner's DuckHill Kennels - Canoe Labradors

his dogs are Brit-lines, & i prefer the compact models.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Wildwind British Labradors


BTW one of his sires is a Wild Rose-bred dog, 
Wildwind British Labradors

that's Robt Milner's original kennel, which he founded in 1972, then left field-trials to do gundogs 
& began to import Brit-Labs in 1983; he also switched from USA-style to reward-training around 
that time. :yesnod:

In 1995 he sold it to a fella, who sold it to Mike Stewart in 1999; Robt mentored Mike for a few years 
on Brit-Labs & gentle training, & Mike has now published 
_'Sporting Dog & Retriever Training: The Wildrose Way': 
Raising a Gentleman's Gundog for Home & Field'_
Sporting Dog and Retriever Training: The Wildrose Way: Raising a Gentleman's Gundog for Home and Field: Mike Stewart, Paul Fersen, John Newman: 9780789324467: Amazon.com: Books

Glad to see a 3rd book in the roster of reward-trained gundogs! :thumbup:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> BTW one of his sires is a Wild Rose-bred dog,
> Wildwind British Labradors
> 
> *that's Robt Milner's original kennel, which he founded in 1972, then left field-trials to do gundogs
> ...


He must have spent some time with British trainers and looking at their training methods. As I said, harsh handling is not necessary, nor will it get the best out of the dog.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> He must have spent some time with British trainers and looking at their training methods.
> As I said, harsh handling is not necessary, nor will it get the best out of the dog.


_"...Maj. Morty Turner-Cooke, a Field trial & gundog trainer and breeder. 
Morty was my principle source for British Labradors at Wildrose Kennels. Maj. Turner-Cooke 
remains my principle advisor on all things concerning British field trial dogs & British gundogs. 
He is aided today by Robin Watson of Tibea Gundogs... _

Robert Milner's DuckHill Kennels - About Us


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> if i had UNLIMITED funds & wanted a great Lab, i'd get a canoe Lab from Robt Milner -
> Robert Milner's DuckHill Kennels - Canoe Labradors
> 
> his dogs are Brit-lines, & i prefer the compact models.


Fortunately, you can get a beautifully bred one for considerably less over here


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Fortunately, you can get a beautifully bred one for considerably less over here


but how would i walk it home?... 
.
.
.
.
.


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

the most evil animal in the world is the one called a human


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I have had SO many frustrating conversations with folks who use force fetch, and their entire argument
> is based on, "at some point, the dog must know that the retrieve is not optional, that he HAS to
> retrieve". There are even many trainers who have embraced the motivational retrieve, but they'll
> still "finish" it with force, just to make sure the dog knows it's not optional. The rationale being, unless
> ...


just found my quote of the day...

& that poppycock about _THEY MUST, OR ELSE..._ is precisely the same crapola they dish about horses, 
pet-dogs, SAR-dogs, SDs, cop-K9s, military-K9s, bite-sports, etc, etc; it;s all the same twaddle, 
THEY MUST because we demand it, period.  Hell's bells, if they can teach wasps to alert on 
explosive traces, why in DoG's name are we having trouble teaching a dog to behave politely, or hunt, 
fetch, etc?

I agree with Monty Roberts, _"At heart, I'm saying that no one else has the right to say 
'you must' to an animal - or to another human."_


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Just wanted to say how much I have been enjoying reading this thread - I don't and never have had a working dog - mine have always been pets from pet lines, but even I have seen the difference in dogs bred from working lines and (for want of a better term) 'beauty' lines.

I know people who have bought border collies, jack russels, spaniels, labs etc from working strains to keep as pets, and bragged about how intelligent etc their dog is (and I don't doubt that for a minute), and then six months down the line have got rid of them because they have so much energy, physical and mental, and the owner can't cope. The dog has needed more than two 20 min walks a day, and has become destructive and in some instances (particularly a border collie I knew, and almost every farm-bred jack russel I've ever encountered) snappy. Just had all of that pent up energy and keen intelligence and independence, and nothing to do with it.

This thread describing the intense drive these dogs have to work/fulfil their rinstincts has been fascinating to me.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i've been trying to find out more about Mr Suave, but this is all i've found 
My views: Corleone gundogs

there's zero text - What sort of 'blog' has only 10 photos, with minimal captions?
As to "views", there aren't any, unless it's a view of a motorcycle, a woman in leathers, 
& a few dogs - including a litter of Labs, no adult Labs, & assorted Spaniels.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> i've been trying to find out more about Mr Suave, but this is all i've found
> My views: Corleone gundogs
> 
> there's zero text - What sort of 'blog' has only 10 photos, with minimal captions?
> ...


His FB page is far more interesting


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ouesi said:


> His FB page is far more interesting


It certainly is.... 
Never was the old saying, Empty vessels make the most noise, more true...:blink:
Animal Rights Activists... Obsessive trainers.... Violence.... Punishment.... its an interesting read.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

Ive spotted this on facebook too,.. hes been banning people from his page,.. closed comments and still defending his way of practice. 

Looking at Perry, he must be special as he does a perfect stay with no harsh training! he loves to do what i ask him. not because he has yto,.. its because he wants to,.. and that is the right balance because dogs have feelings too


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Seems he's back in the news on FB - promoting a Training Day. I've no idea what became of the RSPCA investigation or if he has changed his ways.

Hmmm....


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I saw this on FB this afternoon.

He did pick the dog up twice by it's ears, put it back down, and slapped it hard, saying "He has to learn to stay until I tell him to move".

I think he may very much regret that video.

I have a JR from generations of working dogs and she hasn't been an absolute pleasure, she's been an absolute little witch! Hours and hours of work to even get her to listen and even now, if she doesn't want to listen, she won't.

She's a darling though and a huge character, even though she's had me on the point of tears many times.

A big achievement for us this week when she walked past a snapping and snarling Collie and ignored him, looking up at me for her treat and with the "Watch Me" command. She was offlead, but never took her eyes away or looked at the Collie. I was so proud of her and all the praise she got made her start gambolling round, grinning from ear to ear.

I think these dogs with high prey drive instinct can be the hardest, but so rewarding when you do make breakthroughs with them.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Sweety said:


> I saw this on FB this afternoon.
> 
> He did pick the dog up twice by it's ears, put it back down, and slapped it hard, saying "He has to learn to stay until I tell him to move".


There was a big hoo-hah about it when first seen. 54 people reported him to the RSPCA. Whatever investigation was done, it didn't go far enough.

Just noticed that letter is dated 2009 - seems people have reported him before.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Blitz said:


> oh and by the way, sheep dog trainers can be VERY hard. I know someone who was having problems with a dog not recalling - he went out with the dog and a gun and said if it disobeyed it would be the last time it did it. That is not illegal either, he had a gun licence and you are allowed to humanely destroy your own animal as far as I know. I had a dog from him once and it was in such a disgraceful state I had to bath it before I could bear to put it in the van to take to the sheep. Sadly it was totally wild when it worked so I had to give it back as I did not want to start training it from scratch. I felt awful putting it back to him and seeing it chained in filth again. Yet he is well respected.


Who was this? (PM if you prefer).

Thankfully I haven't witnessed any cruel training methods in sheepdogs myself, but I have absolutely no doubt it goes on


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Very glad to see this is now going viral on FB. Not before time.


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

I've not read the whole thread, I watched the first 2 vids but it's too much to take in at this time of night. I just wanted to make a comment in case it gets locked.
I know absolutely nothing about gun dog training, it's not something I need to know about. But I do know that picking a dog up by its ears and then slapping it so hard the sound can be heard on the vid is cruel. It must hurt them. Logic alone says it must hurt, the dogs taking it's whole weight on its ears! I really hope this man stops using this kind of training method.

As for the second vid, why on earth didn't the woman in the car do something. Ok she had a child with her which is limiting, but she could have phoned the police or someone to come and stop the abuse. Film a bit for evidence, yes, but then call for help. Get the abuse stopped and the man arrested.

We all love animals here on PF, that's why we're all here, to learn, to help, and to show off our lovely pets. But there are many people out there to whom a pet is just a thing, a commodity to be bought and sold, to be discarded when the novelty has worn off. To be abused, coz it's only a dog, it's got no feelings. Well it may not have complicated emotional feelings in the same way as a human, but it does feel. It feels pain when hurt. Why in the name of all that's holy can't these people understand that. Just, why???


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Almost 5,000 signatures in 24 hours!

Petition | Prosecute UK dog trainer Christopher Upton for mistreating animals! | English


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## Guest (May 14, 2014)

I watched a trainer hand a bottle of water to a pregnant lady with a staffie and watched her drench the poor in water like he was being interogated for a 2 hour lesson the lessons run over. 

I also saw him yank a lot of dogs leads and try to force my dog (I told him off) on an agility course when she had never seen one before. 

I reported him to my local branch they said he is known to them as others have made complaints but as long as people pay him their is little they can do.

He uses harsh techniques of training and shows little understanding of dog behaviour. Their is another local trainer who approves of prong collars and is very popular.

I'm not at all suprised they haven't prosecuted the trainer in the video their are a lot of trainers nearly as bad as he is. Seeing him prosecuted may help raise the awareness that its time to set guidelines for acceptable training methods.


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## CurlyLarrynmo (May 15, 2014)

I am working on a petition to 10 Downing Street, in an attempt at getting this 'trainer' (said in the most contemptuous manner I can do), prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Yes there is a petition currently doing the rounds, but this one, will go to the government. If I receive a minimum of 100,000 signatures, then they will act.

I will post more, once I am given the go ahead from the Government, together with a link for the e-petition.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Prowl said:


> ... Seeing him prosecuted may help raise... awareness that it's time to set guidelines for *exceptable*
> training methods.


I "liked" Ur comment, but just a small quibble -

"exceptable" means it's the *exception*, which would mean that it's NOT banned / inapropos / too harsh,
it's allowed. 

i think U meant to say "acceptable" methods - those that we are willing to approve / permit?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

There's a big backlash from the gundog community about this video, a small minority of people are defending this trainer, the vast majority have roundly said it's absolutely unacceptable. Unfortunately you get complete twonks in any walk of life.


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