# Planned burning of the Quran



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i refuse to name him; i have no intention of getting him more attention. 
IMO this narrow-minded man is making incredibly rude and inflammatory remarks, 
and his plans to BURN copies of the Quran on Sept-11 are ridiculous and hateful.

this pastor no more 'represents' the USA than *glenn beck* represents politics, 
or *nancy grace* represents 'justice' - they are just ranting talking-heads. 
in the pastor's case, he is IMO a very poor Christian; he not only judges, 
but demonizes others.

this is so disheartening and at the same time, it angers me; this man claims to SPEAK for me? 
how dare he; i can speak and think for myself, thanks, and my views are not his.

then he uses the civil-rights granted by our legal and governmental system to **defend** 
HIS faith, and besmirch the faith of others - how cowardly. FIFTY-ONE people do not speak for the USA, 
and burning the Quran is no more defensible than burning the Talmud, the Torah, or the Bible. 
imagine how much knowledge was lost when the library of Alexandria was burned, or when the 
Emperor of China destroyed *every book and scroll* of every era before him, forcing scholars 
to begin libraries from scratch.

fools burn books; wise people read them.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I was also shocked when I heard this Terry. I had written a whole long page, then reread it and it was totally weird...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> I was also shocked when I heard this Terry.


 how can a man who claims to teach his congregation, and theoretically aspires to a life of compassion, 
see this action as *being a role model?* 
how sad. i hope no other religious-leaders decide to join his micro-movement.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Ok. I really need to watch the news more often.

Mind you if this is what's going on in the world I'd be best off keeping my tv switched off


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Pastors, Reverends and other religious leaders are supposed to teach peace, and harmony. Be kind to mankind but apparently this guymissed that day in class Terry. I hope and pray he doesn't get too many followers. People need to remember that 9/11 was a few extremists on a whole the religion consists of peaceful way of life....Jill


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

canuckjill said:


> Pastors, Reverends and other religious leaders are supposed to teach peace, and harmony.


Like Ian Paisley and the Ayatollahs?? The worse thing man ever did when sitting in his cave thousands of years ago was invent religion.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Awful, it must be a difficult enough time for everyone who lost loved ones on this date without some idiot hijacking this day of remeberence to spout out garbage!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Good grief! What a twit!
Surely if you want to make a pertinent point about 9/11 you should just hold a huge multi faith BBQ and party!!:thumbup:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I've just read the article and find this a bit hypocritical,the guy is wearing a gun?

"The Rev. Terry Jones said he has received more than 100 death threats and has started wearing a .40-caliber pistol strapped to his hip but still did not back off his plan Tuesday to burn the book Muslims consider the word of God and insist be treated with the utmost respect. "
The Associated Press: Fla. minister: Quran burning still planned*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I've just read the article and find this a bit hypocritical,the guy is wearing a gun?*


IMO everything about him is hypocritical - my hope is that any gods who have the time + inclination, 
take a moment to strike him voiceless - *chronic-laryngitis* - until such time as he finds compassion, 
and THEN he can speak it; not before. *when he can talk about reconciliation, forgiveness, mercy, 
-then- i'll listen.*

as it is, he sows anger, dissension, the seeds of violence, hurt, deliberate misinformation by painting 
a whole FAITH of millions worldwide as 'responsible' for the actions of fewer than the 50 members 
of his backwater congregation - how is this helpful, kind or redemptive?

instead, *reach out to others of all faiths* to remember those we lost forever, and the pain that we all shared - 
Jew, gentile, Muslim, Buddhist, any flavor of Christian, pagan, atheists - *they all died that day.* 
children lost parents and parents lost their children; friendships and families were shattered forever. 
religion is immaterial in the face of death; loss and grief are universal experiences.

the people who are dying -now- when someone sets off a bomb have families, friends, co-workers, 
neighbors - they are mourned, too; this round of endless retribution has to STOP; 
more killing will not make anyone 'feel better', it only makes more pain for more survivors.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

I was gobsmacked when I read about this the other day. How could someone be so stupid? Just think of all the people he is putting in danger. He is a complete and utter lunatic.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2010)

Some religious group are planning to burn the Quran on the anniversary of sept 11th.

Hope this act is not detremental to our troops over there!

Your views!!!


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## lozb (May 31, 2010)

Bloody sad world we live in 

I heard on radio today that he has a 'following' of 50 people at his church... so I'd equate his views to be 'extreme'.... so, therefore, not the views of the huge majority of Christians.

bit like the 'extreme' views of the terrorists who committed the 9/11 horrific events...and not the views of the majority of Muslims.

Kettle/pot?

Very worried about the potential 'backlash' this could unleash


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## Carla-Jade (Jul 28, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Some religious group are planning to burn the Quran on the anniversary of sept 11th.
> 
> *Hope this act is not detremental to our troops over there*!
> 
> Your views!!!


sadly i beleive it will massively have a negative impace  its a disgrace that it should be even thought about. i strongly beleive in the bible- it would be so disrespectful if somebody was to do a mass burning if those. not every muslim is a terrorist so how awful to disrespect a whole religion of people based on the actions of the minority.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2010)

This had to be religious extremist, why on earth would anyone want to stir up even more trouble 
Oh dear Oh dear


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2010)

The group is a small group by all accounts in the USA! really is a danger that this could have terrible repercussions for US troops


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

They are burning it to mark the anniversary of 9/11. I have just heard it too, on the news.

There are much much better ways of doing it...........:frown:


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Its quite disturbing the power some believe they can weild over the people once they have been influenced by ancient superstition and ghost stories.
Religion as it is represented in todays world is no more than a dangerous philosophy which everyone is in danger of. Believers and non believers alike. The crusade does not discriminate.
Im sure he has his own exclusive ideals of justification and attempts to cloak them in the hallowed flag of America to gain support .
Im learned enough to understand that his followers are just as misguided and although his views, and theirs, dont represent the mainstream opinions of the American nation it still illustrates an earlier attitude the nation used to incubate against the remaining world outside of that country.
Ive stated this before and will always maintain the belief that America believes itself to be the new Rome and almost every American desires to be Caesar.
The question now remains which of his congregation is finally going to realise that his downfall is theirs?
Which of the wisest ones will decide to be Cassius, Trebonius, Casca, Ligarius, Cinna, Metallus and most notorious of all Brutus?
If a man is prepared to die for his beliefs then so be it.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

As this is evidently a repeat thread I believe I'm wholly justified in submitting a repeat post.

Its quite disturbing the power some believe they can weild over the people once they have been influenced by ancient superstition and ghost stories.
Religion as it is represented in todays world is no more than a dangerous philosophy which everyone is in danger of. Believers and non believers alike. The crusade does not discriminate.
Im sure he has his own exclusive ideals of justification and attempts to cloak them in the hallowed flag of America to gain support .
Im learned enough to understand that his followers are just as misguided and although his views, and theirs, dont represent the mainstream opinions of the American nation it still illustrates an earlier attitude the nation used to incubate against the remaining world outside of that country.
Ive stated this before and will always maintain the belief that America believes itself to be the new Rome and almost every American desires to be Caesar.
The question now remains which of his congregation is finally going to realise that his downfall is theirs?
Which of the wisest ones will decide to be Cassius, Trebonius, Casca, Ligarius, Cinna, Metallus and most notorious of all Brutus?
If a man is prepared to die for his beliefs then so be it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Zaros said:


> ...America believes itself to be the new Rome and almost every American desires to be Caesar.


oh, for pity's sake - thats nearly as bigoted as the narrow-minded pastor of the teeny-weeny church.

nobody that i know 'wants to be' *caesar augustus* - he's just a historical figure, not a role-model 
which people would love to imitate or personify in real-life; people who THINK they are *napolean* or *jesus* 
generally live in mental-institutions, but i believe *caesar* is less-popular.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Zaros said:


> As this is evidently a repeat thread I believe I'm wholly justified in submitting a repeat post.
> 
> Its quite disturbing the power some believe they can weild over the people once they have been influenced by ancient superstition and ghost stories.
> Religion as it is represented in todays world is no more than a dangerous philosophy which everyone is in danger of. Believers and non believers alike. The crusade does not discriminate.
> ...


But you are also judging a whole country by the actions of one Pastor, there are some Americans that may think as you believe, but there are also other Nationalities whom think they are the best, when in reality no one of us is better than the other we all have faults.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I think this could be very bad for all the troops. Hopefully people understand it is the action of a very small group compared to the size of the country...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

that every M-Brit wants to be *elton john*, or *anthony hopkins*, except younger... 
is that truthful or ridiculous? :huh: or perhaps i could just claim they'd like to have their money + fame; 
forget the persona or image or fashion-sense.  or the WORK - just the attention and the moola. 
would that be accurate? kind? or dumb, wildly untrue, and rude?

claiming they are all just money-grubbing attention-seekers would not make me popular - 
adding that i think they are all LAZY and want the wealth without the work would make me hateful.

and BTW - for anybody who doesn't get this, it's *hypothetical* + i certainly don't believe it.  
just in case...


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2010)

I think this is not only provocative to known extremists, putting our troops at further risk, but also extremely disrespectful to the religion as a whole - a majority of which are peaceful, normal people.

They are been publicly condemned by Obama, saying it is a disgrace, or words to those effect.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Its a slight against a whole religion, disrespectful to some, provocative to others and putting alot of people at risk from extreemist violence.

The people at risk could be people of any other faith (or none) to that of muslims, but it could equally be putting other peace loving muslims at risk. Setting an example like this gives carte blanche for any white extreemist group to step up their game against muslims (or any other person of colour).

Disgusting full stop.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*To be totaly honest if this has a bad effect then the people that respond to this "preachers" actions are stupid.I believe in the bible but i wouldn't get up in arms if a group of idiots decided to burn a load.Once again religion is being used for all the wrong reasons.*


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, for pity's sake
> 
> nobody that i know 'wants to be' *caesar augustus*





canuckjill said:


> But you are also judging a whole country by the actions of one Pastor,


Arent you both selectively reading?
Every country has a jaded history and one that often has many old humiliations still surface in the world today. 
No country can deny that past, even though they might refuse to accept certain shameful aspects of it. But you simply cannot ignore the fact that this individual does not help the realisation that the nation itself has had problems with just about every race of people on the planet. From the exploitation of the blacks and their appalling treatment through the years of American apartheid to the communist witch hunts and now we have the war on the Muslim nation.
Some folks fervently believe that yesterday justifies what we do today. They never learn from it they exploit it to their own ends.
Instead of cowardly hiding behind the falsehood of religion why doesnt he simply don a white sheet and carry a burning cross. At least hed be more honest about his apparent beliefs. 
Its no longer simply a case of God bless America its more the plea of God help America
Oh, and the rest of us who want no part in the ideals of political madmen and religious lunatics.

_The harmless art of knucklebones has seen the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of the United States._Robert Louis Stevenson


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Arent you both selectively reading?
> Every country has a jaded history and one that often has many old humiliations still surface in the world today.
> No country can deny that past, even though they might refuse to accept certain shameful aspects of it. But you simply cannot ignore the fact that this individual does not help the realisation that the nation itself has had problems with just about every race of people on the planet. From the exploitation of the blacks and their appalling treatment through the years of American apartheid to the communist witch hunts and now we have the war on the Muslim nation.
> Some folks fervently believe that yesterday justifies what we do today. They never learn from it they exploit it to their own ends.
> ...


Surely though, the same "ideals" of every american wanting to be cesar could be held for us brits? Maybe underneath everything we are still nursing the old wound that those impudent yanks decided to declare indepandance. I do see your point, prejudice lasts, as do bigoted views. It takes just one person to spark a war, the spark will always grow into given enough oxygen.One persons actions will be viewed as the opinion of a nation, when enough people follow their example. The western world has after all been at war with muslim nations many times over throughout the centuries. Religion, land, and rescources will always be instigators of war.... usually its the 3 combined. America might be the loudest voice in the current western world, but we should not forget the part britain played in producing that nation.

Hmmm the slave trade was ENGLISH (and many other european countries!).... it started long long before america became indepentant. Therefore its our cross to bear too, many brits seem to forget that little nugget.

Equally we have our own bigotry, it might be said in jest now, but the welsh are often given stick (sheep shaggers etc), the scottish (long pockets short arms), the irish (paddys)... all those names started off as insults. They started off during times of war, one nation against another if not one religion against another. Perhaps we english secretly nurse the view that we are "better" than everyone else. Not a comfortable thought, and not one most of us share, yet those phrases are still common now. I wonder how quickly a spark would become an inferno here...


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> Hmmm the slave trade was ENGLISH (and many other european countries!).... it started long long before america became indepentant. Therefore its our cross to bear too, many brits seem to forget that little nugget.


A couple of other 'nuggets' that need to be remembered are that slavery was the norm in Africa long before Europeans muscled in.The Islamic nations to the North used slaves for centuries.
Most of the slaves loaded onto ships were not captured by whites but sold to them by the more powerful African tribes to whom the trade was endemic.

Lets also not forget the trade in 'bondsmen' where tens of thousands of British citizens were shipped to the West Indies to die on plantations alongside their black compatriots.
And what was transportation to Australia for stealing pennies, apart from a form of slavery?
It wasn't just the black races that were evily treated by the then British Government and landowners.
I haven't noticed any white people mentioned in any of the recent 'apologies' 
for the slave trade.


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Hi,

I seriously hope it does not go ahead. Not all Muslims are hellbent on terrorism and are disgusted as we are to what happened on 9/11. They shouldn't be all tarred with the same brush. I agree I think it will antagonise the terrorists and actually make it very dangerous for our remaining troops out there. It is hugely disrespectful to burn such a precious book as the Kuran,it won't teach anyone any lessons,it will just stir up more bad feeling,who needs that.

I think 9/11 needs to be remembered in a much more peaceful way,afterall isn't that what we are trying to acheive World wide peace and no more terrorism and the terrible price that people pay for that?

Izzie


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Izzie999 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I seriously hope it does not go ahead. Not all Muslims are hellbent on terrorism and are disgusted as we are to what happened on 9/11. They shouldn't be all tarred with the same brush. I agree I think it will antagonise the terrorists and actually make it very dangerous for our remaining troops out there. It is hugely disrespectful to burn such a precious book as the Kuran,it won't teach anyone any lessons,it will just stir up more bad feeling,who needs that.
> 
> ...


I agree. It seems so disrespectful not only to muslims in general but also to the families of those who died that day.

It should be more of a day of rememberence for the victims & a celebration of their lives not some crackpot preacher who is obviously intent on stirring things up & achieving media attention for himself.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

poohdog said:


> A couple of other 'nuggets' that need to be remembered are that slavery was the norm in Africa long before Europeans muscled in.The Islamic nations to the North used slaves for centuries.
> Most of the slaves loaded onto ships were not captured by whites but sold to them by the more powerful African tribes to whom the trade was endemic.
> 
> Lets also not forget the trade in 'bondsmen' where tens of thousands of British citizens were shipped to the West Indies to die on plantations alongside their black compatriots.
> ...


i was making no apologies, I accept that our history has an amount of blame for the slave trade, however i do completely agree with your post. However as the post is about america, then the use of black african slaves in the americas and west indies is an entirely european phenomenon.

The clearing of the scottish highlands sent many of them to america and the west indies, transportation of convicts to any country of the outer "empire" provided cheap labour, along with the labour of native peoples of those countries.

Slavery wasnt just endemic to africa and asia though. Back in our history slaves were traded long before the roman empire invaded britain and made it a fashion statement.

Slavery hasnt died out, even in the western world. The recent media surrounding ghurkas has highlighted that. Bring them here from their native country, use them, then discard them... wrong wrong wrong. And lets not talk about sex traffiking... slavery is alive and well.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Izzie999 said:


> Hi,
> I think 9/11 needs to be remembered in a much more peaceful way,afterall isn't that what we are trying to acheive World wide peace and no more terrorism and the terrible price that people pay for that?
> 
> Izzie


Until the Jew/Palestinian festering sore is resolved I fear there is no end to this stupidity.
Islam can be held at bay in Christian countries by the churches bonding together and promoting their way of life. Not by idiot factions breeding hatred.

And I'm an atheist by the way...


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## Amy&Ted (Jul 14, 2010)

This is the whole reason i am a non believer. Religion causes war. I'm all for having faith but not in an entity. I believe in what i can see, touch and feel. Also in things that can be scientifically proven to exist. Until someone can give me scientific proof that God does in fact exist... i cannot put my faith in him.

I believe many use it as a crutch and as a reason to blame others for their actions... Oh so and so committed murder... not because he's an evil barsteward but because he's Muslim. Did you know that she beat her children... not because she's a nasty piece of work but because she's a Catholic...

We cannot keep blaming a person's faith for what they do. It is the LEADERS of said faiths that encourage others to act in extremist and down right evil ways that need slamming.

This guy needs his head re-arranging... not because he's religious but because he's a hypocritical bigot.

Two wrongs do not and never will make a right.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> that every M-Brit wants to be *elton john*, or *anthony hopkins*, except younger...
> is that truthful or ridiculous? :huh: or perhaps i could just claim they'd like to have their money + fame;
> forget the persona or image or fashion-sense.  or the WORK - just the attention and the moola.
> would that be accurate? kind? or dumb, wildly untrue, and rude?


Not at all. But it would make you appear juvenile.



billyboysmammy said:


> Surely though, the same "ideals" of every american wanting to be cesar could be held for us brits?


Lets get one thing perfectly clear here. I did not claim 'every' I stated 'almost all' and, just for the record, my original post was not intended to be anti-American but, in evidence, as a direct result of selective reading and words taken out of context, it would appear that is exactly how some wish to view it.

Wittgenstein was bloody right language is a trap!

Nevertheless, this idea didn't just appear in a deluded dream the misfit might have had one night the man is from an era where this type of behaviour was common place. It worked then and he sees no just reason why it shouldn't work now. He simply exploits the controversy of 9/11 as a prime opportunity for a revival.
The only thing *UN*american about this thread is the Pastor himself.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

100 people have now googled 'Wittgenstein'


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Some religious group are planning to burn the Quran on the anniversary of sept 11th.
> 
> Hope this act is not detremental to our troops over there!
> 
> Your views!!!


This is my fear too  that twot is targeting the wrong peeps he needs to shut his piehole before our men get the repercussions from this


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *To be totaly honest if this has a bad effect then the people that respond to this "preachers" actions are stupid.I believe in the bible but i wouldn't get up in arms if a group of idiots decided to burn a load.Once again religion is being used for all the wrong reasons.*


yep same here mate I wouldnt react in a rioting way either, some peeps just get too over the top with been offended. However I believe in the bible but "men" like this lunatic give normal christians a bad name, he needs to be shot in the gob before his church causes irreversible damage.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*in return for moving the proposed Muslim-center in NYC farther from Ground Zero, 
after meeting with the imam of that NYC-congregation, the Saturday-burning has been canceled. *
the imam in NY claims there was no meeting - i need not mention which of the 2 men i believe. :thumbdown:

to say nothing of the imitators who may take up the idea of a book-burning; i think i'll burn a dollie - 
a wax-dolly with grey hair... :laugh: and a few pins thru its body.


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

_Horrifyingly_ stupid.

What happened to the last guy who attempted something as stupendously bigotted as this...Berlin, May 1933 anyone?

Unbelievable.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *To be totaly honest if this has a bad effect then the people that respond to this "preachers" actions are stupid.I believe in the bible but i wouldn't get up in arms if a group of idiots decided to burn a load.Once again religion is being used for all the wrong reasons.*


I think this has been blown out of all proportion by the media Jan to be honest! I posted this thread yesterday and my concerns are that it COULD put many other lives in jepody!
This congregation has a mere 50 - had they not have had the publicity they have it would have gone unnoticed.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think this has been blown out of all proportion by the media Jan to be honest! I posted this thread yesterday and my concerns are that it COULD put many other lives in jepody!
> This congregation has a mere 50 - had they not have had the publicity they have it would have gone unnoticed.


*I agree with you DT, i ask myself this.If they know this sittuation is going to get peoples backs up (to say the lest),why the hell don't the media leave stories like this alone? By speading this story they are as bad as the moron preacher.*


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## Amy&Ted (Jul 14, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I agree with you DT, i ask myself this.If they know this sittuation is going to get peoples backs up (to say the lest),why the hell don't the media leave stories like this alone? By speading this story they are as bad as the moron preacher.*


News sells unfortunately


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

Caught a piece whereby it said that the planned burning had been postponed at the very least or maybe even cancelled!
DT


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Caught a piece whereby it said that the planned burning had been postponed at the very least or maybe even cancelled!
> DT


*From what i heard on the news this preacher is a liar as well as a sh*t stirrer.He had stated that he would stop the burning of the books if the people that wanted the mosque (sp) build at the 9/11 site found a different site.He has since said they had agreed to do so.But apparently thats not the case.*


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

The Imman for the proposed 9/11 site says he hasn't spoken to the pillock.So he's a liar.
He says he's waiting for a message from God...Yeah right!....another lying evangelist.Trouble is many Americans in the Bible Belt will believe him.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

poohdog said:


> The Imman for the proposed 9/11 site says he hasn't spoken to the pillock.So he's a liar.
> He says he's waiting for a message from God...Yeah right!....another lying evangelist.Trouble is many Americans in the Bible Belt will believe him.


no mate only the lil knobs in his church will, normal christians think he is on the road to hell


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## Amy&Ted (Jul 14, 2010)

If i burn pictures of David Cameron... will he move countries? :lol:


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> no mate only the lil knobs in his church will, normal christians think he is on the road to hell


Really?....moving to Alice Springs is he??


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Should Quran not be Koran?:confused1:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> Should Quran not be Koran?:confused1:


*this might help.*
Qur'an - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

cheers janice lol


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

It almost makes them as bad as the people who attacked the trade centers. 

They are preaching inequality and hatred and we've got more than enough of that in the world without this 'pastor' preaching it in the name of God.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> But you are also judging a whole country by the actions of one Pastor, there are some Americans that may think as you believe, but there are also other Nationalities whom think they are the best, when in reality no one of us is better than the other we all have faults.


Unfortunately - the whole of American culture and its policies support the right wing religous groups.


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

so what do you guys think of the muslim temple being built right by the twin towers sight?


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

Mum2Alfie said:


> so what do you guys think of the muslim temple being built right by the twin towers sight?


Think it should NOT be allowed! Purely becasue I think it would be of bad taste for all those who lost their loved ones! spect there will be a lot disagreeing with me on this as by saying such it sounds like I am judging all to be the same!! I'm not!

As for the pastor! as I said earlier, think there has been too much publicity here the whole stint should have been ignored! and if he gets any satifaction from burning the Quran (or the bible for that matter) then he must have a very warped mind!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Mum2Alfie said:


> so what do you guys think of the muslim temple being built right by the twin towers sight?


*I personaly don't see the problem.The muslim community can't be held responcible for a few mindless morons.*


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Mum2Alfie said:


> so what do you guys think of the muslim temple being built right by the twin towers sight?


A number of Muslims died in the twin towers - so unless ALL religıous ideology is too be banned then whats the problem.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Mum2Alfie said:


> so what do you guys think of the muslim temple being built right by the twin towers sight?


oh for pity's sake - 
its TWO BLOCKS AWAY, it will not be visible from Ground-Zero nor will Ground-Zero be visible from ITS ROOF. 
'right by' is just another media-spread exaggeration from zealots who seized on it as a rallying-cry. 

also its *not a TEMPLE nor a MOSQUE - its a community-center*, the Muslim equivalent of a YMCA/ YWCA. 
nursery-school, swimming-pool, etc - not a 'church'. it is planned to have 13 floors, ONE area will be a mosque. 
it is planned for the site of the former Burlington Coat Factory, vacant since 2001 - see this link: 
http://tinyurl.com/23fc5f4

even if it were, so what? 
i see no reason to get so het-up about it; if a Buddhist congregation wants to build a meditation center 
and hospice across the street or side by side with Ground-Zero, would we even have this conversation?

if born-again Bible-thumping Baptists wanted to build right beside Ground-Zero, *i would be more concerned* 
than by an actual mosque, in the same place.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosquemap/articleInline.jpg

thats one graphic - at the time, the closed Coat-Factory was being used as overflow space for prayers [2009].

to get a current map, enter *45 park place, NYC, NY* on Google maps - 
U will notice that it is *2 blocks from Vessey + Church streets, and SIX FULL BLOCKS 
from Church + Liberty streets, * where the anti-brigade held their protest the other day; 
how do U measure? *the main site is a solid 4-blocks from the proposed Muslim community-center. *

this is hardly cheek by jowl development; Manhattan is a very crowded urban space, 
and 45 Park Place is approx *half a mile* from Liberty + Church Streets intersection.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Didn't Hitler burn books? I say no more........


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Does anyone know what the families of the victims think about the leasure centre? I am curious is all.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> oh for pity's sake -
> its TWO BLOCKS AWAY, it will not be visible from Ground-Zero nor will Ground-Zero be visible from ITS ROOF.
> 'right by' is just another media-spread exaggeration from zealots who seized on it as a rallying-cry.
> 
> ...


You have to remember in the UK (which most of us members are from!) we do not work in blocks! We can only listen to the media and make our minds up at to how much of the story they have got right and how much is exaggerated!

And the way you put things does not always come across as friendly! We are not a bunch of idiots 'for goodness sake' perhaps your people skills need a bit of polishing Terry!"


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think in a free country then anyone is entitled to burn any book that they see fit.

I do not really get than in 2010, people get so upset to the point of killing others or being killed themselves all over a few bits of paper. If it was a holy relic or a koran that was centuries old and could not be replaced then fair enough, but I don't think it is.

It is symbolic gesture, I get that, but surely all religions and religious people know that someone, somewhere will be in complete disagreement with them and to think otherwise is unrealistic.

Thus I feel the significance of the burning is being blown up out out of all proportion by those whose main aim is to promote disharmony.

If someone burns my Bible I will go down to a bookshop and buy a new one, it doesn't alter anything as to my beliefs.

As for the Muslim centre being placed so near the Twin Towers, in a perfect world no big deal, but in the life we live in, and the way things are, and the still raw wounds of 9/11, it perhaps wasn't the best decision ever made.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Mum2Alfie said:


> Does anyone know what the families of the victims think about the leasure centre? I am curious is all.


a few are vocally loud and against it - most do not mind at all, and a number think it's a good idea. 
the majority of the protestors were from 2 anti-Islamic groups [one named *stop the Islamasization of America*, which is an extreme statement in and of itself - i am much more likely to be harassed on the street by a born-again Christian, or in my home by Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses] -

another chunk of protestors came from the right-wing political faction, the *tea-party*. 
they aren't exactly progressive folks, either.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I find IMO that religion preaches peace and love each other, yet it is the biggest if not the only reason for war, it is a cause of great evil...


But also understand that different faiths bring great comfort to what ever one you follow.

People do strange things in the name of religion.

I have no faith, I have looked at the hubble telscope pictures. we are nothing and I honestly find it incrediable hard to believe that one entatey was supposes to have made it all.. but I have complete respect for others point of view..
 sorry for the spelling mistake chaps:lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> You have to remember in the UK... we do not work in blocks!


if U gave someone directions in London, U would not say, _exit the hotel at the main lobby, turn right and walk 3 blocks..._? 
city-blocks is an approx measure of distance - any city in the world with cross-streets has 'blocks' of buildings 
framed by streets cutting between them. 


DoubleTrouble said:


> We can only listen to the media and make our minds up at to how much of the story they have got right and how much is exaggerated!


well, MOSQUE is one exaggeration - 
"The building would include a prayer room, a basketball court, art exhibitions, as well as '... an auditorium, swimming pool, restaurants, and child care facilities - all aimed at revitalizing Manhattan's financial district by providing 150 full-time jobs, 500 part-time jobs, and pouring $100 million in infrastructure." 
quote from *Carma Hassan, "New Yorkers Come Out to Level Proposed Ground Zero Mosque," 
Illume, 2010-MAY-27, at: ILLUME - Breaking News, U.S., World, Culture, Politics, Entertainment, Videos, Photo Essays & Podcasts - Muslim Magazine *



DoubleTrouble said:


> And the way you put things does not always come across as friendly! We are not a bunch of idiots 'for goodness sake' perhaps your people skills need a bit of polishing Terry!


between my abysmal people-skills and Ur unquestioning gullibility,  we should get along famously :lol:

i was exasperated by someone simply repeating without questioning, 'facts' which are easily ascertained - 
i entered *proposed Muslim community center in NYC* into Google, and got dozens of more-accurate 
articles than 'right beside' Ground Zero.

U can also google *map of NYC and proposed Muslim center*. passing on unverified 'facts' 
only spreads more misinformation, which is not helpful. 
all my best, 
- terry


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> if U gave someone directions in London, U would not say, _exit the hotel at the main lobby, turn right and walk 3 blocks..._? /QUOTE]
> 
> No, we wouldn't. Nobody would know what we were talking about! Except the American tourists, of course! We never use the term "blocks" to describe anything, except lego bricks. As I understand it, a block in the US can be an enormous distance, whereas in London it might be one small building. Some of these buildings are ancient, some are modern, glass monstrosities. Your description of "exiting the lobby (actually foyer) and turning right........." is far more realistic.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> leashedForLife said:
> 
> 
> > if U gave someone directions in London, U would not say, _exit the hotel at the main lobby, turn right and walk 3 blocks..._? /QUOTE]
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> Unfortunately - the whole of American culture and its policies support the right wing religous groups.


no, it doesn't - 
but unfortunately, the RIGHT wing + in particular, religious AKA church groups are better organized.

progressive people or the un-churched have no corresponding meeting point weekly, to a church. 
they are inevitably more scattered and must *make an effort* to be informed, participate, etc.

in contrast, members of any congregation of any faith, have their congregation and religious leader 
to spread news items, disseminate info, solicit volunteers, organize letter campaigns, *fund-raise 
for political campaigns, pass petitions, organize a public protest, etc.*

progressive political individuals have to find facts and act on them - vs be spoon-fed the church position 
and whatever facts or opinion the church hierarchy provides.

the scattered + diffuse, disorganized + underfunded NONreligious individuals and groups are 
at a distinct disadvantage; people do not *tithe* to political causes, i know religious citizens 
who tithe as much as 20% of their income to their church - which can use it for re-painting or paying 
for buses to a political rally, it is up to church-leaders how that $$ is used.

but that liberals and progressives are underfunded and disorganized does not mean they do not exist; 
it is unfortunate that the right-wing religious conservatives have massive campaign-chests for media 
saturation, which only makes the situation worse.  they take advantage of the open democratic structure 
to send bulk-mail campaigns for pennies, buy TV-ads, take out news-ads in print and on-line, 
have websites, etc; the liberal, progressive and un-churched are often individuals, not organizations. 
their resources are limited, especially financially.

on-line resources for liberal or progressive Americans include: 
* Mother Jones mag 
* Harrington Post 
* Christian Science Monitor 
* the Progressive mag 
* Ms mag 
* Utne mag

there are also *progressive churches - * like the Unitarians, Quakers / Society of Friends, 
Buddhist groups, and loose non-church groups - meditation, etc.

progressive churches and non-religious orgs are greatly-outnumbered by conservative or classically 
hierarchical churches, such as Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Baptist, Eucharistic, and many Protestant 
faiths, plus of course, Mormon, Jehovahs and other smaller churches.

this is a relatively-new website - Progressive American Media - TV, Radio, Internet, Books, Magazines, Newspapers... 
Air-America, a name-brand radio-station, died in January 2010; the on-air commentators 
are scattered to the winds, but still broadcasting.

here is a handy *directory - * 
Magazines < U.S. Progressive Politics in the Yahoo! Directory


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i was exasperated by someone simply repeating without questioning, 'facts' which are easily ascertained


I wasnt repeating anything. A muslim "social centre" or what ever you want to call it is being built nearby the twin towers which thousands of people died in when the taliban decided to do a terrorist attack. I dont care how close it is, I think its disrespectful to everyone whos lives were taken, and mocks the war and all the people who have died in that aswell. This is not gonna get good reviews, but this is how I feel. I dont understand why they are doing it. After everything its a bad move.

As for the post asking if it were another religious group we wouldnt bat an eyelid.....another religious group hasnt killed thousands of people just around the corner!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Mum2Alfie said:


> I wasnt repeating anything. A muslim "social centre" or what ever you want to call it is being built nearby the twin towers which thousands of people died in when the taliban decided to do a terrorist attack. I dont care how close it is, I think its disrespectful to everyone whos lives were taken, and mocks the war and all the people who have died in that aswell. This is not gonna get good reviews, but this is how I feel. I dont understand why they are doing it. After everything its a bad move.
> 
> As for the post asking if it were another religious group we wouldnt bat an eyelid.....another religious group hasnt killed thousands of people just around the corner!


I dont see it as disrespectful at all.... now if it was a taliban social centre... that would be very different!

The islam religion has so many different factions, just like the christian churches. We have baptists, catholics, CoE, protestants, methodists, and everything in between, from the slightly amusing to the down right dangerous. Why would the muslim religion be any different?

Should we tar all muslims with the same brush?, should all christians be punished because the KKK and nazi's are part of the christian society?


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> I dont see it as disrespectful at all.... now if it was a taliban social centre... that would be very different!
> 
> The islam religion has so many different factions, just like the christian churches. We have baptists, catholics, CoE, protestants, methodists, and everything in between, from the slightly amusing to the down right dangerous. Why would the muslim religion be any different?
> 
> Should we tar all muslims with the same brush?, should all christians be punished because the KKK and nazi's are part of the christian society?


Lets have one of em all then BBM! (places of worship that is!!) Unfortunately! there will be some who have lost loved ones who will not want reminding everyday (not that they are likely to forget) by seeing the mosque! And sadly!! t'is religion that is often the route of all evil - whatever way you look at it! Bl**dy hell! almost every war ever fought involved it!
lol
DT


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> I dont see it as disrespectful at all.... now if it was a taliban social centre... that would be very different!
> 
> The islam religion has so many different factions, just like the christian churches. We have baptists, catholics, CoE, protestants, methodists, and everything in between, from the slightly amusing to the down right dangerous. Why would the muslim religion be any different?
> 
> Should we tar all muslims with the same brush?, should all christians be punished because the KKK and nazi's are part of the christian society?


Alot of people dont agree with the muslim way, how they treat their women and the fact they train their children in warfare at a very early age...thats muslim, thats no different group....talliban were muslim and come from that background. I know alot of muslim people who ar really nice, I agree that not all are like that, but I do believe that it shouldnt be anywhere near the site.


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Lets have one of em all then BBM! (places of worship that is!!) Unfortunately! there will be some who have lost loved ones who will not want reminding everyday (not that they are likely to forget) by seeing the mosque! And sadly!! t'is religion that is often the route of all evil - whatever way you look at it! Bl**dy hell! almost every war ever fought involved it!
> lol
> DT


Excactly! Thats why I am now a believer in the ole Mother nature and nothing else! I hate that religion is used as a way to start a war!


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

Mum2Alfie said:


> Alot of people dont agree with the muslim way, how they treat their women and the fact they train their children in warfare at a very early age...thats muslim, thats no different group....talliban were muslim and come from that background. I know alot of muslim people who ar really nice, I agree that not all are like that, but I do believe that it shouldnt be anywhere near the site.


And you (like everyone else) are entitled to those views without having to explain the reason why!


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

The Taliban didn't attack the twin towers...Al Qaeda did.And most of the terrorists were Saudis...but we're 'friends' with them aren't we? Even though they don't allow Christian churches in their country.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

so... what about the muslim victims of 9/11?

And what the hell has the western attitude towards the way muslims treat women, got to do with 9/11?

out of interest i googled the location!


Its not exactly next door.

There are at least 3 christian churches and an amish centre within the same distance, it is also not next to the wtc visitors tribute centre.

I really fail to see the problem.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I think it would be a good step for America to actually have that Mosque built.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

sequeena said:


> I think it would be a good step for America to actually have that Mosque built.


But are they really ready for it, that is the big question?

9/11 was a big, big, big event in US history, it shook so many to the core that they were actually so vulnerable. 
They lost a bit of the bravado that they had built up as a super power.
They lost it to an extreme act of violence perpetrated by Muslims. I think that although of course all Muslims cannot be blamed, there is perhaps a feeling that it will, if it goes ahead definitely always be a running sore and a source of tension.

I personally do not feel that they are really ready for a Muslim centre so close to where so many died, hence the heated opposition.



> _Donald Trump has offered to buy the piece of ground, from the developers.
> _"I am making this offer as a resident of New York and citizen of the United States, not because I think the location is a spectacular one (because it is not), but because it will end a very serious, inflammatory, and highly divisive situation that is destined, in my opinion, to only get worse"
> ​



​


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

The media has to take the blame for the near on hysteria that this act in encouraging! IT should never ever have had the coverage it has! The Pastor is a fruitloop BUT!!! the way the muslins all over the world are reponding to his stupid threat gives the whole world reason for concern! Those of you who say that not all muslins are the same and that we should not tar then with the same brush! Yep you are right! we shouldn't!! but judging the behaviour of a large proportion of them I think it is evident that they stick together, and from listening to what some are saying (In the UK) they are certainly not as people as some would have us believe! 'peaceful' infact!! to me they ouze aggression!

And regarding the building of the Mosque they can built em where they damd well like so long as I ain't got to look at em!! but why do they want so badly want to build one there?? The way things are going it Won't be long before we have one at Wooton Bassett!! or have we already got one Billyboysmam?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Mum2Alfie said:


> I wasnt repeating anything.


no - DT was, and my post was a direct reply.  the particular phrase was, _*"right by" Ground Zero.*_ 
4 to 6 city blocks, depending upon where one measures from, is not "right by" anything. 
45 Park Place is approx 1/2-mile from the former Twin-Towers site.

let's be accurate, please. cheers, 
- terry


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> no - DT was, and my post was a direct reply.  the particular phrase was, _*"right by" Ground Zero.*_
> 4 to 6 city blocks, depending upon where one measures from, is not "right by" anything.
> 45 Park Place is approx 1/2-mile from the former Twin-Towers site.
> 
> ...


Next time I wanna post i'll run it by you ma'am to check the facts first!
But there are more important things going on in the world then splitting hairs over this sh*te! You don't have to really look far to see why the worlds at war do you when there are such argumentive folk walking amongst us!
DT


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

poohdog said:


> The Taliban didn't attack the twin towers...Al Qaeda did.And most of the terrorists were Saudis...but we're 'friends' with them aren't we? Even though they don't allow Christian churches in their country.


*Or it could have been down to the American goverment at the time.The 9/11 conspiracy theories have a lot of valid points.*


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I don't know, I'm not American. I just think it's a good step to take - whenever they're ready.

America doesn't need this sh*t when tomorrow it is the anniversary when thousands of peoples lives were cruelly cut short.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I think it would be a good step for America to actually have that Mosque built.


so do i - please see this article - 
"Muslim Prayers and Renewal Near Ground Zero ," New York Times, 2009-DEC-08, at: The New York Times - Breaking News, World News & Multimedia 
http://tinyurl.com/yzkgvcw

for those who do not know, there was a Muslim prayer-center *in the World Trade Center, 
when the towers were standing and busy. *

Park51

not EVERYbody thinks this is shocking, etc - many find the objections worse than the proposed building - 
Franken: Opposition to Manhattan Muslim center disgraceful « Minnesota Independent: News. Politics. Media.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Or it could have been down to the American goverment at the time.The 9/11 conspiracy theories have a lot of valid points.*


Janice I'm surprised you haven't been turned upon by angry American dogs and savaged half to death for the above scurrilous remark. 
No one knows the true events leading up to the atrocity of that dreadful day (except the perpetrators themselves) because the absolute truth was buried in the tons of pulverised building materials. Although to some, the authoritative tools of science and the natural laws of physics speak volumes for themselves.
I find the entire controversy somewhat iniquitous because not only does it illustrate the complete lack of respect some have for their fellow man it also represents the plain and simple fact we are all potential targets in the killing game played by governments.


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## holly1 (Aug 10, 2010)

Would the rest of the world be bothered if 9/11 had happenend in the UK.I very much doubt it.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Janice I'm surprised you haven't been turned upon by angry American dogs and savaged half to death for the above scurrilous remark.
> No one knows the true events leading up to the atrocity of that dreadful day (except the perpetrators themselves) because the absolute truth was buried in the tons of pulverised building materials. Although to some, the authoritative tools of science and the natural laws of physics speak volumes for themselves.
> I find the entire controversy somewhat iniquitous because not only does it illustrate the complete lack of respect some have for their fellow man it also represents the plain and simple fact we are all potential targets in the killing game played by governments.


*Well please or offend i always speak my mind,as i've stated many times on hear i like to question everything and will continue to do so.*


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Well please or offend i always speak my mind,as i've stated many times on hear i like to question everything and will continue to do so.*


As is your right Jan
But personally I think it is a little far fetched!


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2010)

Havn't put the news on yet! but spect the news will be domination by the coverage of the raving pastor and his mere congregation of thirty! Seriously guys!! had they have been left alone they would hardly have made an impression would they!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Trouble is DT some morons will take up arms against others for the silliest of excuses.*


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Mum2Alfie said:


> Alot of people dont agree with the muslim way, how they treat their women and the fact they train their children in warfare at a very early age...thats muslim, thats no different group....talliban were muslim and come from that background. I know alot of muslim people who ar really nice, I agree that not all are like that, but I do believe that it shouldnt be anywhere near the site.


can use the same arguement for all religions - Catholics Now thats another thread!!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Raina Wallens: My Husband Didn't Stand for Hate

this 9/11 widow thinks the developers were naive, not badly-intended.

she's also appalled that radical-right politicians and ultra-conservative religious groups have seized 
on the Muslim "Y" as a divisive wedge to split social opinion and spread racist and culturally condemning rhetoric.

as she says, *her husband did not stand for hate* - when the anniversary of so much loss is only an opportunity 
to capitalize on shock and distress, and foment anger and resentment, that is IMO wicked in the old-fashioned sense: 
evil - inexcusable, cruel, using any means at hand to reach a goal, with no regard for others.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> can use the same arguement for all religions - Catholics Now thats another thread!!!!


??????.......nothing wrong with us Catholics(most of us anyway).


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

speaking of Froot-Loops in the news...:crazy: from *raina wallen's* Huff-post article - 


> _ ...one of Pamela Geller's great claims to fame is her propagation of the claim
> that President Obama might be the illegitimate son of Malcolm X. _


if that's an example of her brilliant insight and factually informative gems for the edification of her fellow citizens, 
i can only say that ignorance [up until now] was relative bliss - i can almost be embarrassed for her, this is so 
incredibly, fantastically wrong  it's a marvel, like a Victorian folly in the garden: 3 or 4 architectural styles 
mashed in one unlikely fake 'ruin' for dramatic effect - Lord knows what future archelogists will make of them.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

leashedForLife
I feel that your views are admirable, however some have it in their hearts and minds to forgive, to see things totally rationally and to give others the benefit of the doubt and to accept the perpetrators of murder, wars and atrocities with open arms for the greater good.

However others will never forgive, they will never be in a position to accept their loss and will never accept a person, race, religion or a country that has taken their loved ones from them.

Both sides need to be taken into consideration here, 9/11 was only a matter of 9 years ago, soldiers are still dying on foreign soil because of it, the hurt of many, many people is still there.

Of course every Muslim in the world is not responsible for the horrific tragedy of 9/11, but they are the scapegoats, they are a tangible entity for those who are angry to target. It is not right, but that is the way the world works.

It is *only* a Muslim centre but it signifies so much more, it signifies forgiveness and a conclusion, an end to the matter. 
Rightly or wrongly that is something, some do not want to do, the hurt is too raw, the wounds too deep.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> ?????? ...nothing wrong with us Catholics (most of us anyway).


let's not get that started; there are few faiths on Earth that have not sometime been judgemental, 
cruel, arbitrarily unjust, etc; i think the Buddhists and Jains are the only faiths that have not had wars, 
just to kill people who were members of another religion... except for atheists and pagans, of course.

the Pope sent thousands and thousands of 'crusaders' to invade, sack and destroy villages + cities; 
he even sent children as young as 9-YO on foot to "free the Holy Land", thus condemning those innocent children 
to a painful death far from home, of disease, starvation and exposure or thirst.

the Pope refused to speak-out against the concentration camps + ghettoes of Nazi Germany, to condemn 
the eviction of peaceful citizens and the wholesale slaughter of children and adults alike, the theft of property 
by and for the State, the whimsical denial of citizen-rights... he was appealed to, and ignored that appeal.

there is plenty of blame to go around; atheists who have no 'church' to represent them, and pagans 
who are their own minister, congregation and religious-edifice, are among the few untainted. 
Buddhists who refuse to engage in violence, and Jains who avoid killing anything down to an ant, 
are likewise innocent.

the rest can look back over centuries of good *and* bad things their church has done, 
in the name of 'our religion'... like the Inquisition, witch-hunting, the extermination of indigenous peoples 
around the globe by missionaries and commercial interests, and more.

the natives of Tierra del Fuego got along just fine without clothes, thanks; 
missionaries insisted they clothe themselves, and they died in troops. 
nudity is not fatal, and Victorian respectability is not life-saving, either.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> let's not get that started; there are few faiths on Earth that have not sometime been judgemental,
> cruel, arbitrarily unjust, etc; i think the Buddhists and Jains are the only faiths that have not had wars,
> just to kill people who were members of another religion... except for atheists and pagans, of course.
> 
> ...


excuse me!!!....when did i say my church was better....???

there is nothing wrong with catholics....nothing wrong with muslims or any other religion in my opinion...but i did not say my church is better...i do not belive my church is better than any other..


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> let's not get that started; there are few faiths on Earth that have not sometime been judgemental,
> cruel, arbitrarily unjust, etc; i think the Buddhists and Jains are the only faiths that have not had wars,
> just to kill people who were members of another religion... except for atheists and pagans, of course.
> 
> ...


You forgot the wide spread torture of children by priests and nuns from sexual to physical abuse.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> ...to accept the perpetrators of murder, wars and atrocities with open arms for the greater good.


i did not say that criminals should not be prosecuted - but that innocent people around the world 
should not be lumped in with the criminals as equally guilty, only because they share the same faith.

that's as outrageous as labeling all blue-eyed children retarded, all brown-eyed kids future geniuses, 
and all green-eyed children as misanthropes who will grow-up to be mass-murderers. 
it's not true, and worse, it's divisive and embittering. *it's also self-fulfilling if U tell teachers, 
"so-and-so has test-scores that indicate tremendous potential".* the teacher will perceive 
THAT child differently, teach TO that child, encourage and support that child.

the power of suggestion is enormous - it should be used with great care. 
painting an entire cultural-group as 'bad' is not a good or reasonable action, IMO.


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## k4r4 (Sep 20, 2009)

I do not believe in a god and this thread has made me realize i was right in doing so.....

sorry random outburst but also true.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> You forgot the wide spread torture of children by priests and nuns from sexual to physical abuse.


no, i didn't - i just didn't mention it, as i did not mention the long-standing tradition of joy-boys 
in the Middle-East, taken from families who sell them, taught to dance and entertain, 
and often pawns in bitter rivalries between wealthy, powerful men - their clientele.

it is not unknown for these boys and later, young men, to die by suicide, or be murdered.

what about conservative Muslim clerics who would refuse all education to girls and women? 
starving a brain is no less wicked IMO than starving a body - and one at least ENDS sooner.

or clerics and politicians who speak FOR the unaesthetized, unsanitary cutting of girls' genitals, 
so that they must be cut-open for sex or for childbirth? many girls die every year, of shock, blood-loss 
and infection - but it's _"tradition"._

as i said - there is plenty of blame to go around.


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

k4r4 said:


> I do not believe in a god and this thread has made me realize i was right in doing so.....
> 
> sorry random outburst but also true.


yes very true..because whatever god you belive in it is Never the right God...but each to the own...the only problem i have is when people call other religions...that is why we have the problems in this world that we do..
I'm off to bed anyway..to pray to whoever...


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> i did not say that criminals should not be prosecuted - but that innocent people around the world
> should not be lumped in with the criminals as equally guilty, only because they share the same faith.


I didn't mention prosecution at all, I spoke about forgiveness. As for lumping people together....
As I said



Lauren001 said:


> Of course every Muslim in the world is not responsible for the horrific tragedy of 9/11, but they are the scapegoats, they are a tangible entity for those who are angry to target. It is not right, but that is the way the world works.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Of course every Muslim in the world is not responsible for the horrific tragedy of 9/11,
> but *they are the scapegoats*... a tangible entity for those who are angry, to target.
> It is not right, but *that is the way the world works.*


i very much disagree - *the WORLD* is neither more nor less, in this context, than all the humans in it. 
i am not *the world - * i am one human, but my feelings matter, too, and saying THE WORLD 
believes in scapegoating the innocent is a defeatist and ultimately destructive belief.

THE WORLD of human behavior is made up of individuals - we each act, and feel; we have a moral 
and ethical responsibility to act appropriately; *a mob has no conscience, but the people who make it up, 
do - *exercising our conscience, *thinking + acting consciously*, is part of being an adult.

don't excuse inaction or falling in with a popular but immoral opinion with being 'just one person' - 
ethics begins with individuals, but can become a social force; all it takes is will.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I didn't mention prosecution at all, I spoke about forgiveness.


actually, U said...


lauren001 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...some have it in their hearts and minds to forgive, to see things totally rationally and to give others the benefit of the doubt and *to accept the perpetrators of murder, wars and atrocities with open arms* for the greater good.


so what 'perpetrators of murder, war and atrocities' do U refer to, exactly?


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Lets try and put some things into perspective shall we?


1 - should we close all catholic schools because some of the priests in a few schools "went bad" and abused their pupils?

2 - Perhaps there should be no catholic churches in manchester or warrington because the IRA bombed them, and they are catholic?

3 - Perhaps there should be no protestant churches due to the irish loyallists killing and displacing thousands of catholics.

4 -Not entirely sure how we would resolve the palestine/israeli problem.... perhaps a nuke... i can see both sides of their argument even if i do not condone the violence.

5 - maybe we should condemn all muslims because of 9/11 or one of the other atrocious acts that certain groups of muslims have committed.

6 - hitler and the nazis after all were christian... perhaps there should be no christian churches anywhere near a the site of the concentration camps ever again.

The muslim religion is as varied in its teachings and styles of worship as christianity. Should all christians be condemned because of the actions of some? NO! so why should all muslims be condemned for the actions of some?


----------



## Guest (Sep 13, 2010)

I like the sound of the nuke myself

DT runs like bl**dy hell!


----------



## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> DT runs like bl**dy hell!


i'm right behind you!


----------



## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I like the sound of the nuke myself
> 
> DT runs like bl**dy hell!


So long as we get to do the bloody Catholics as well Bye Bye Vatican!!!:lol::thumbup::lol:


----------



## holly1 (Aug 10, 2010)

I wondered when it would get round to the nazis
I think religion is a crock,fairy tails.If people said those things happened today,they would be in the nuthouse.
My thoughts...


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

personally don't see what the big hoohaa is about, it's just a book.

put into perspective:

one side burns some material 'belonging' to the other side;
the other side retaliates by burning a book 'belonging' to said first side.

How f'ing old are these people?

but of course, i'm not religious.


----------



## Guest (Sep 13, 2010)

owieprone said:


> personally don't see what the big hoohaa is about, it's just a book.
> 
> put into perspective:
> 
> ...


What a fantastic attitude!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Can I join you gang please?


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> What a fantastic attitude!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> Can I join you gang please?


lol, sure, erm.. as long as you aren't expecting to be told how to act, dress, worship etcetc cos this is a 'gang' and not a sect or cult like those other ones dotting about just now.

i'm not the messiah.


----------



## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I think the correct response to the hysterical threats from both sets of extremists is.....
bovvered?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

personally, i hope they build it - and then invite EVERYbody to come: 
use the other prayer + meditation rooms, use the classrooms, play B-ball, 
exercise in the gym, etc, etc. 

i have helped to build 4 houses for Habitat for Humanity - if i lived close enuf to volunteer, 
i'd help build this, too. :thumbup: U cannot blame 'everybody' for actions by a few.


----------



## Guest (Sep 13, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> personally, i hope they build it - and then invite EVERYbody to come:
> use the other prayer + meditation rooms, use the classrooms, play B-ball,
> exercise in the gym, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


Dunno if you know anything about this Terry!
But in the UK one of the news channels broadcast a speech from one of the relatives of the 9/11 victims! They were (I believe) the appointed spokesperson! They begun with saying That they could NOT speak for All as feelings were split!
But basically the spokesperson was saying that they had no objection to the building of a mosque near ground zero ! but there were other relatives that were very against this.
Do you know anything of this,? and you opinions are??!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

survivors cannot be the sole determinants, either, DT.  New York is an enormous multicultural 
and multiethnic cosmopolitan metropolis - one group can't say Yea or Nay. 


DoubleTrouble said:


> ...a speech from one of the relatives of the 9/11 victims! ...
> They begun with saying That they could NOT speak for All as feelings were split!


yes, i have already posted about this above. *also* did U read - 
Raina Wallens: My Husband Didn't Stand for Hate

many survivors have already expressed their opinions, and there are at least 3 or 4 organizations 
of 9/11-survivors for widowed spouses, children, co-workers, etc; *nobody has The Opinion.*

just like the general-public, some think it's good, some think it's terrible, some don't care, 
some think it's immaterial as it is a half-mile away, and landing-gear falling 2 stories thru the building 
did not make the Burlington Coat Factory 'hallowed ground'.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> U cannot blame 'everybody' for actions by a few.


Yo*u mean the*
thieves, liars, cheats and murderers! 

The two greatest malignant and terminal social ills in society today are Politics and Religion and if it wasn't for the Political madmen and Religious zealots spreading propaganda and rumour this discussion would not be taking place.
Therefore, I think it's only right to say that those with the privilege of opportunity to do the greater good in this world often commit the greater evil.

Its *always* the minority (politicians and religious leaders) who are equally guilty of causing both the unrest and the indifference across the face of this planet. They are the ones solely responsible for stirring the proverbial 'sh1t' and then taking a back seat to watch everyone else do the mucking out.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think it depends on where you measure the Muslim centre to Ground Zero as to the distance, Ground Zero is a big site.
From Vesey Sreet which is the northernmost boundary of the site to 51 Park Place is 190m. 
That I think is the closest measurement, and the one that should be used when describing the proximity of the site.


----------



## Guest (Sep 13, 2010)

So the Mosque is planned to be just 190m from the site? NOT the half mile???


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Zaros said:


> You *mean the* thieves, liars, cheats and murderers!


yes, i suppose i do - 
as *most* people do not steal, many lies are minor, 'cheating' covers anything from kiddy-games 
to sexual infidelity in marriage, and thankfully, *very few* people murder.

i cannot get excited about somebody telling another, _"oh that looks nice..."_ when truth to tell, 
the model is not suited by the style or color - the liar tries to be kind, tho it's a lie. 
many lies are attempts to avoid argument or avoid hurting the other person.

if U think someone has done something truly unforgivable, *that person* needs to be accountable - 
not 'everybody'.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> So the Mosque is planned...


A - it's not "*a mosque*" - its a 13-story building which will contain, AMONG other things, 
a basketball-court, classrooms, a gym, etc, AND a mosque - PLUS other prayer-rooms for other faiths. 


DoubleTrouble said:


> ...to be just 190m from the site? NOT the half mile???


_#[email protected]*&% !_ please load Google-Maps, *enter 45 Park Place* and look at the map.

*B - * GROUND ZERO the footprint of the Twin-Towers, is approx a half-mile away. 
U can if U wish, measure from the NEAREST corner of the over-16-acre site. 
the *towers* did not cover 16-acres.


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

i posted the map before... but here it is again...


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

The Muslim centre is 45-51 Park Place, if you calculate to 45 Park Place it is 210m.

I have got both my figures from Google Maps. 
I am measuring from the middle of Vesey Street not some corner.
Vesey Street appears to be the upper boundary of the entire site.

File:WTC Building Arrangement and Site Plan.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This map also shows 45 Park Place


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> ...it depends on where you measure [from]... Ground Zero is a big site.


i have already said that - several times. *2 and a half city-blocks* is not 'next to'. *the site covers 16-acres.*

to anyone reading this - 
there is *a strip-joint* around the corner, between Ground-Zero and the former Burlington Coat Factory - 
is that *a shocking intrusion*, appalling, terrible, should it be closed forthwith? sheesh. :thumbdown: 
there are shops, offices, bars, restaurants, grungy dives and multimillion-dollar corporations there.

it's not the stable in Bethlehem, or the po-tree in India - *it's a commercial district.* 
it's expensive land by the square-foot; there are hundreds of uses within a half-mile. 
please SEE Google-Maps and use the *search nearby* function for Urself. 
again - the ADDRESS of the former Coat-Factory building + proposed "Muslim-Y" is *45 Park Place.*


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I am measuring from the middle of Vesey Street not some corner.
> Vesey Street appears to be the upper boundary of the entire site.


Vesey + Church is the intersection at the upper-right corner of the 16-acre site.

how many meters is it from the footprint of the nearest former-Tower?


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Leashed for life you are splitting hairs. 
So if someone plants a huge tree right in front of my front window, instead of measuring the distance from the tree to my window, I am supposed to measure it from my back garden wall. 
My problem and source of complaint is that it is 1m from my window not that it is 20m from my back garden wall.

I am not sure about the truth of the news articles but is seems more and more are calling the project a Muslim centre *and mosque.

*


----------



## Guest (Sep 13, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i have already said that - several times. *2 and a half city-blocks* is not 'next to'. *the site covers 16-acres.*
> 
> to anyone reading this -
> there is *a strip-joint* around the corner, between Ground-Zero and the former Burlington Coat Factory -
> ...


Half a mile or 210 metres?
My other half just told me that everyone can see half a mile!!!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

did U look at the *map*, DT? 


DoubleTrouble said:


> My other half just told me that everyone can see half a mile!


not when it's covered with buildings, wall to wall. *even the roof of a 13-story bldg* 
will not let the viewer see the Ground-Zero site, from 45 to 51-Park Place.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Leashed for life you are splitting hairs.


no - i point-out that where we measure from and to, Vesey + Church 
or the actual tower-footprints, makes a massive difference.

2.5 city-blocks [nearest] vs 6-blocks [Liberty + Church Streets] 
or approx a half-mile *to the actual tower-footprint.*

BTW - 5,280-feet = 1 mile; a half-mile is therefore 2500-ft + 140-ft = 2,640-ft.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I am not sure about the truth of the news articles but [it] seems more and more
> are calling the project a Muslim centre *and mosque.*


why don't they call it *a basketball-court and mosque*? 
or a *meditation-center and mosque*? 
how about *child-care center and mosque*? 
or *restaurant and mosque*? *art museum and mosque*?

feel free to read the entire article - 
"The building would include a prayer room, a basketball court, art exhibitions, 
as well as '... an auditorium, swimming pool, restaurants, and child care facilities - 
all aimed at revitalizing Manhattan's financial district by providing 150 full-time jobs, 
500 part-time jobs, and pouring $100 million in infrastructure." 
quote from *Carma Hassan, "New Yorkers Come Out to Level Proposed Ground Zero Mosque," 
Illume, 2010-MAY-27, at: ILLUME - Breaking News, U.S., World, Culture, Politics, Entertainment, Videos, Photo Essays & Podcasts - Muslim Magazine *

note that it is from May-2010, before the current hoopla.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> yes, i suppose i do -
> as *most* people do not steal, many lies are minor, 'cheating' covers anything from kiddy-games
> to sexual infidelity in marriage, and thankfully, *very few* people murder.
> 
> if someone has done something truly unforgivable, *that person* needs to be accountable.


And politicians and men of faith commit all of the above ilustrating a prime example of how man abuses/exploits the power given to him.
But man is easily illusioned and, I suppose just as easily disillusioned, and it is a terrible realisation that this world is freely given over to the privileged few in the far flung hope that circumstances may turn out for the better, when in truth the wholesome fabric of the world continually deteriorates at their hands and becomes a less safe place with each passing day.

Themically, in the book of *Romans* it quotes; *Let us do evil, that good may come*
Tell me what good ever comes from the wanton slaughter of innocent people? Because quite frankly Im at a loss. :confused1:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i've never been a believer in END justifying MEANS. 
U'll have to ask somebody else. [shrug]


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> So long as we get to do the bloody Catholics as well Bye Bye Vatican!!!:lol::thumbup::lol:


i really hope that's a joke mate

Burning the Koran is wrong imo. All religions inc my own (catholic) teach love and tolerance as their basis, but sadly this seems to have been lost in amongst all the things that have been added afterwards 
There are always bad apples in every barrel who will abuse what others identify with

To burn something someone considers sacred is wrong to me, I'd be upset at burning a St George or Saltire flag as it represents alot of things people believe in - GOOD things

I think its in poor taste to have the mosque near the 9/11 site and it is disrespectful to those who died.

have you seen the tags for this thread also? 
*anti-Muslim, bigot, burning books, narrow-minded, small sect* :O


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Perhaps its not in such poor taste for these people and their families.

Muslim Victims of 9/11: Incomplete


Shabbir Ahmed - 47 years old - Windows on the World Restaurant 
Tariq Amanullah - 40 years old - Fiduciary Trust Co. 
Michael Baksh - 36 years old - Marsh & McLennan 
Touri Hamzavi Bolourchi - 69 years old - retired nurse on United #175 
Abul K. Chowdhury - 30 years old - Cantor Fitzgerald 
Mohammad Salahuddin Chowdhury - 38 years old - Windows on the World 
Jemal Legesse De Santis - 28 years old - World Trade Center 
Simon Suleman Ali Kassamali Dhanani - 63 years old - Aon Corp. 
Syed Abdul Fatha - 54 years old - Pitney Bowes 
Mon Gjonbalaj - 65 years old - Janitor, World Trade Center 
Nezam A. Hafiz - 32 years old - Marsh & McLennan 
Mohammed Salman Hamdani - 23 years old - NYPD Cadet 
Zuhtu Ibis - 25 years old - Cantor Fitzgerald 
Muhammadou Jawara - 30 years old - MAS Security 
Sarah Khan - 32 years old - Forte Food Service 
Taimour Firaz Khan - 29 years old - Carr Futures 
Abdoulaye Kone - 37 years old - Windows on the World 
Abdu Ali Malahi - 37 years old - WTC Marriott 
Nurul Hoque Miah - 35 years old - Marsh & McLennan 
Boyie Mohammed - 50 years old - Carr Futures 
Ehtesham U. Raja - 28 years old - TCG Software 
Ameenia Rasool - 33 years old - Marsh & McLennan 
Mohammad Ali Sadeque - 62 years old - newspaper vendor at WTC, reported missing 
Rahma Salie & child - 28 years old (7 months pregnant) - American #11 
Khalid M. Shahid - 25 years old - Cantor Fitzgerald 
Mohammed Shajahan - 41 years old - Marsh & McLennan 
Gary Shamay - 23 years old - Cantor Fitzgerald 
Nasima Hameed Simjee - 38 years old - Fiduciary Trust Co. 
Michael Theodoridis - 32 years old - American #11 
Abdoul Karim Traore - 41 years old - Windows on the World 
Karamo Trerra - 40 years old - ASAP NetSource 
Shakila Yasmin - 26 years old - Marsh & McLennan


These people were not terrorists, they were victims just like the thousands of others who died, survived and all their families. 

Considering there is 3 churches within equal distance, a synagog being opened on the 10th anniversary ( think anyway lol) I still fail to see why a whole religion should be condemned by the actions of a few.


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Starlite said:


> i really hope that's a joke mate


I actually don't think it was..by earlier comments

juliex


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> I actually don't think it was..by earlier comments
> 
> juliex


of course it was!


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i've never been a believer in END justifying MEANS.
> U'll have to ask somebody else. [shrug]


Tut tut!
Now why couldn't you have simply admitted _'you didn't know the answer'_ to my question without the snide and disrespectful comment?
Quite evidently you seem to have inadvertantly (or conveniently) forgotten that if it wasn't for the people *YOU* claim I'm moaning about *YOU* wouldn't have had the foundation for a thread.
Now stop being juvenile, there's a good girl.

In the meantime perhaps you might like to listen to the following track and take a few notes?

YouTube - Dreamer - Ozzy Osbourne (Standard C)


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Starlite said:


> have you seen the tags for this thread also?
> *anti-Muslim, bigot, burning books, narrow-minded, small sect* :O


I don't think Terry is any of those things, just describing the article (pastor being anti muslim, a bigot etc)


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Janice I'm surprised you haven't been turned upon by angry American dogs and savaged half to death for the above scurrilous remark.
> No one knows the true events leading up to the atrocity of that dreadful day (except the perpetrators themselves) because the absolute truth was buried in the tons of pulverised building materials. Although to some, the authoritative tools of science and the natural laws of physics speak volumes for themselves.
> I find the entire controversy somewhat iniquitous because not only does it illustrate the complete lack of respect some have for their fellow man it also represents the plain and simple fact we are all potential targets in the killing game played by governments.


have you watched this Zaros
YouTube - 911 Loose Change (full-length)



paddyjulie said:


> I actually don't think it was..by earlier comments
> 
> juliex





billyboysmammy said:


> of course it was!


what is Turkeylads problem with catholics? I wouldnt say such defamatory things about his religion :confused1:


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I don't think Terry is any of those things, just describing the article (pastor being anti muslim, a bigot etc)


ahh right i was wondering why the thread was labelled as such, i joined kinda late and read back


----------



## Guest (Sep 14, 2010)

This thread has done nothing other then to prove to me that I was right all along!

Religion CAN BE the route of all evil!


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Starlite said:


> ahh right i was wondering why the thread was labelled as such, i joined kinda late and read back


LOL no worries


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Starlite said:


> have you watched this Zaros
> YouTube - 911 Loose Change (full-length)
> 
> what is Turkeylads problem with catholics? I wouldnt say such defamatory things about his religion :confused1:


*Possibly because of all the bad press the catholics faith has had over the years,and even more recently. Thats not to say all catholics are the bad no more than saying all muslims are bad because of a few evil ones.*


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I cant answer for him, but his response was indirectly a response to my sarcastic comment about nuking the west bank to "solve" the problem of the muslims (palestines) and jews (israelis).

I am not religious in any degree or shape, and think that most of the wars we have ever been involved in have had religion at their root. However i do respect anyones right to have whatever faith they choose.

The point being made by turkeylad (i think), myself and others was that members of EVERY religion including christianity (of which catholicism is the biggest church) have committed atrocities and that you cannot just use a blanket rule to dismiss a whole faith. 

There are some whacko christians (jonestown, nazis, KKK), and there are some whacko muslims (taliban, al quaeda etc) and i expect if you look into every faith there are some whacko members. 

What you cant do is tell someone they are not good enough to worship in a place (which remember lost its mosque when the twin towers fell) just because some terrible members of their faith were responsible. 

As i posted earlier, the muslim community lost many people during the bombings, they also lost their "church" and nearly every one of them is against extreemism (just like nearly every christian is against extreemism).


----------



## holly1 (Aug 10, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> This thread has done nothing other then to prove to me that I was right all along!
> 
> Religion CAN BE the route of all evil!


I agree.If god created us in his image,he must have an evil streak himself.
How can there be so much sufferring in the world?

My thoughts


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

holly1 said:


> I agree.If god created us in his image,he must have an evil streak himself.
> How can there be so much sufferring in the world?
> 
> My thoughts


God, Allah, Buddha, whatever you call Him upstairs
gave humans free will, so were all responsible for our own actions. None of this "God made me do it crap"


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

poohdog said:


> Really?....moving to Alice Springs is he??


Lmao yeah mate must be :arf:



lauren001 said:


> I think in a free country then anyone is entitled to burn any book that they see fit.
> 
> I do not really get than in 2010, people get so upset to the point of killing others or being killed themselves all over a few bits of paper. If it was a holy relic or a koran that was centuries old and could not be replaced then fair enough, but I don't think it is.
> 
> ...


couldnt have put it better.
I think its a bad idea so many people died in the name of Allah whether it be from fanatics or not its just too raw to place a muslim centre there in that vicinity.



Starlite said:


> God, Allah, Buddha, whatever you call Him upstairs
> gave humans free will, so were all responsible for our own actions. None of this "God made me do it crap"


Exactly, its about time knobs started taking responsibility and stopped blaming God.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Starlite said:


> have you seen the tags for this thread also?
> *anti-Muslim, bigot, burning books, narrow-minded, small sect*


i chose the tags, starlite - i felt then, and still do, that they are accurate. 
the Florida dingb... errrmmm, pastor *is,* IMO narrow-minded, and his threatened actions 
were those of, IMO, a bigot; he has repeatedly made anti-Muslim statements, etc.

if U think the tags are radically inaccurate, or even slightly inaccurate, why is that? 
i am happy to listen...  what tags would fit better? 
- terry


----------



## jessiegirl (Apr 24, 2009)

religion is the cause of most of the shi t in this world


its got so much to answer for


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> The point being made by turkeylad (i think), myself and others was that members of EVERY religion including christianity (of which catholicism is the biggest church) have committed atrocities and that you cannot just use a blanket rule to dismiss a whole faith.
> 
> There are some whacko christians (jonestown, nazis, KKK), and there are some whacko muslims (taliban, al quaeda etc) and i expect if you look into every faith there are some whacko members.
> 
> ...


makes sense to me.  BTW - when are they going to ban strip-joints + betting-parlors within X-distance 
of ground-Zero? *of course, they were there before the Towers, too.* does that make them 'sacred'? 
or 'historic'? or simply a long-standing part of the NYC scene?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Zaros said:


> ...why couldnt you have simply admitted _you didnt know the answer'_ to my question...?


because i do know the answer - *the end does not justify the means.*  
why OTHER people may believe it does, is not for me to answer; but they can, or should.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Starlite said:


> have you watched this Zaros
> YouTube - 911 Loose Change (full-length)


No I havent and Im sure it makes interesting viewing.

Unfortunately the endeavours of those who seek to find the absolute truth are invariably handicapped by the nuisance of Conspiracy theorists who, ironically, prove themselves to be allies to no one but corrupt and deviant governments. Stupified and stifled by their own ignorance, they inadvertantly assist to bury the absolute truth beneath more lies and preposterous allegations with the sole intention and purpose to undermine and overthrow, and any effort to trace the elusive creature thereafter is completely futile.
Nevertheless, with respect, this thread isnt about finding the truth behind what man does and why he does it, its about discovering the truth behind what he did and why he did it.
Its about being mislead by the great illusion of an afterlife suggesting it doesnt matter what we do in the real world or what we do to mortal man because this God, whoever he is, forgives all our sins and providing we atone for what we do we wont be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone for all eternity.

All religion is just as believable as the next one.
Can any one follower of any faith honestly say he personally knows this God?
Moreover, can any one atheist emphatically disprove God's existence?

Superstitious hoodlums flogging ghost stories have set man against man since his ancestors gave the natural elements names so that he was better able to understand how the planet interacted with itself, and in evidence it appears we havent progressed very far from those times when we were afraid of the dark and huddled together in caves for safety.

In essence, it would seem that those who have a faith and a belief in a God have just enough religion to make them hate, but not enough to love their neighbour or forgive him.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i chose the tags, starlite - i felt then, and still do, that they are accurate.
> the Florida dingb... errrmmm, pastor *is,* IMO narrow-minded, and his threatened actions
> were those of, IMO, a bigot; he has repeatedly made anti-Muslim statements, etc.
> 
> ...


I thought it was aimed at the posters not the topic, brain freeze lol :blush:



Zaros said:


> No I havent and Im sure it makes interesting.. viewing.
> 
> _Moreover, can any one atheist emphatically disprove God's existence?.._
> 
> In essence, it would seem that those who have a faith and a belief in a God have just enough religion to make them hate, but not enough to love their neighbour or forgive him.


Its an interesting documentary Zaros, my OH showed me it and it made me think 
_
I always say that to people who mock my faith, prove He's not there _

Well you've not been to Glasgow Zaros, we'll be pals with anyone as long as your not standing in the way of our flight to Magaluf :lol:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> All religion is just as believable as the next one.
> Can any one follower of any faith honestly say he personally knows this God?
> Moreover, can any one atheist emphatically disprove God's existence?
> 
> ...


well said Zaros!

i was brought up a Christian and use to believe but i dont anymore....but if im wrong and there is some God out there who has chosen us as the superior being on this planet then i think hes gunna be well pi$$ed off with his choice!

what a shame we wernt all brought up with the same belief as the Native Americans...to love and respect ALL living things and to care for Mother Earth, i think i might start worshiping Wakan Tanka he sounds a much more caring and sensible God to me:thumbup:

The Indian loved to worship. From birth to death, he revered his surroundings. He considered himself born in the luxurious lap of Mother Earth, and no place was to him humble. There was nothing between him and the Big Holy (Wakan Tanka). The contact was immediate and personal, and the blessings of Wakan Tanka flowed over the Indian like rain showered from the sky. Wakan Tanka was not aloof, apart, and ever seeking to quell evil forces. He did not punish the animals and the birds, and likewise, he did not punish man. He was not a punishing god. For there was never a question as to the supremacy of an evil power over and above the power of Good. There was but one ruling power, and that was Good."

-Chief Luther Standing Bear -
Teton Sioux, Born 1868


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> noushka05:
> Wakan Tanka... sounds a much more caring and sensible God to me :thumbup:
> 
> _"The Indian loved to worship. From birth to death, he revered his surroundings.
> ...


i think many indiginous religions are less divisive and more-inclusive than such 'flavors' 
as Roman or Greek Catholicism, or Judaic or Islamic faiths - they insist U *PICK ONE* 
whereas Buddhism or the Shinto faith can be grafted onto anything - U can be Protestant AND Buddhist, 
but the Protestant church-hierarchy would not see it that way; they want an all-or-nothing devotion.

but do bear in mind - the Sioux-languages had no word for '*friend*'; there were all the many 
and varied forms of relationship, clan, family, parents, uncles, cousins, marriage, and so on, 
but No Word for a person to whom they had no blood-tie or obligation by marriage, clan, or tribe. 
*U could however be adopted - which solved this nagging problem; * then everybody knew 
how to treat U, what Ur status was, who was Ur clan, and so on.

many black-men were adopted into native-tribes with full 'civil-rights' there, a century and more 
before black-MEN had civil and legal rights beyond slavery, in the USA.

children or women taken from other tribes [including white, black, etc] were often taken as wives 
or children to replace those who had died, and again they had the same rights and status 
as the child or wife they replaced; *but some were taken as slaves, and unless someone 
offered a bride-price or they showed special talent - hunter, tanning skins, sewing or beading, etc - 
they led a mizrable existence.*

it is also true that the Sioux, like other tribes and the Inuit, tortured those they captured in battle; 
or who trespassed on their hunting-grounds, were caught stealing horses or women, etc. 
but counting coup was more impressive than counting bodies - the native tribes did 
not try to wipe-out other tribes, genocide was not the idea; and women + children were not 
legitimate targets, either - nobody bragged about killing a woman in her longhouse or teepee, 
until Europeans came along - they fought to exterminate. 
[women who took up weapons were another issue - there were European women who fought 
against King George's redcoats, there were native women who killed warriors from other tribes; 
it wasn't common, but there were some.] 
despite Wakan-Tanka's benignant theology, life was not without social-conflict.

*many Inuit slit the underside of a boy's penis, to prevent one of the most-popular tortures: 
tying a cord of sinew around it to prevent urination*, which is not only excruciatingly painful, 
but can be fatal. with the penis slit, it was impossible to shut-off the urine-stream entirely. 
not being able to write in the snow was a minor flaw; the Inuit had no written language.

i like the creation-myths of White Buffalo Woman and Grandmother Spider, myself. 
Corn Woman has some good stories, too - and Trickster Coyote.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Starlite said:


> _
> I always say that to people who mock my faith, prove He's not there _
> 
> Well you've not been to Glasgow Zaros, we'll be pals with anyone as long as your not standing in the way of our flight to Magaluf :lol:


*And almost every one when age,
Disease, or sorrow strikes him,
Inclines to think there is a God
Or something very like him.*  (Clough)

Incidentally, I can quite imagine it to be similar to the running of the Bulls at pamplona.:scared:



noushka05 said:


> i was brought up a Christian and use to believe but i dont anymore....but if im wrong and there is some God out there who has chosen us as the superior being on this planet then i think hes gunna be well pi$$ed off with his choice!


Yes Mary Shelley only wrote Frankenstein whereas this alleged God created him!

*There is no God the wicked saith,
And truly tis a blessing,
For what he might have done with us
Tis better only guessing *  (Clough)


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> i think many indiginous religions are less divisive and more-inclusive than such 'flavors'
> as Roman or Greek Catholicism, or Judaic or Islamic faiths - they insist U *PICK ONE*
> whereas Buddhism or the Shinto faith can be grafted onto anything - U can be Protestant AND Buddhist,
> but the Protestant church-hierarchy would not see it that way; they want an all-or-nothing devotion.
> ...


thats so interesting thanks

and i didnt realise the Inuit worshipped Wakan Tanka i thought it was just the plains Indians.

i stick by what i believe tho that the planet would be in a much better state if only everyone believed everything has a spirit and that we are not some superior being who has the God given right to 'lord' it over all other creatures as the main religeons would have us believe... and that we have every right to take from the earth whatever we want, religeons have elevated us until we have become seperate from nature and every other living thing.

personally i think the main religeons have a lot to answer for so i'm sticking with Wakan Tanka


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> ...i didnt realise the Inuit worshipped Wakan Tanka i thought it was just the plains Indians.


they don't  oops - forgot to mention that. Inuit worship an animistic theology, 
and their shamans have the power to travel to the spirit-world and come back with advice. 


noushka05 said:


> ...the planet would be in a much better state if only everyone believed everything has a spirit
> and that [humans] are not... superior beings [with] the God-given right to 'lord' it over all
> other creatures as the main religions would have us believe...
> and that we have every right to take from the earth whatever we want,
> [the Judeo-Christian] religions have elevated us until we [are] separate from nature and every other living thing.


yes  the split of humans from 'nature' and our world + other species, being UNIQUE 
and having DOMINION has been a disaster. 


noushka05 said:


> personally i think the main religions have a lot to answer for  so i'm sticking with Wakan Tanka


sounds like a plan... :thumbsup:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> they don't  oops - forgot to mention that. Inuit worship an animistic theology,
> and their shamans have the power to travel to the spirit-world and come back with advice.
> 
> yes  the split of humans from 'nature' and our world + other species, being UNIQUE
> ...


nice one!

right now im off to have a smoke on my peace pipe...shall i pass it round?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

can i join you?

Out of all the religions one which is purely about respect for all life is the one that appeals to me the most!

We can start out own uk worship! eeek... would that make us a cult?!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jessiegirl said:


> religion is the cause of most of the shi t in this world
> 
> its got so much to answer for


*I don't think its religion that causes the problem,its a lack of people not showing respect for other peoples beliefs.*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> can i join you?
> 
> Out of all the religions one which is purely about respect for all life is the one that appeals to me the most!
> 
> We can start out own uk worship! eeek... would that make us a cult?!


woo hoo i think we could have something here:thumbup:....and it'd be a good cult cos we're not wierdos are we:lol:


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

exactly! 

weirdo free cult!

i vote you as tribal leader!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> exactly!
> 
> weirdo free cult!
> 
> i vote you as tribal leader!


:scared: oohh No! im a follower


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't think its religion that causes the problem,its a lack of people not showing respect for other peoples beliefs.*


In other words "religion causes" most of the trouble in the world.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> In other words "religion causes" most of the trouble in the world.


i agree! plus they have played a massive part in wrecking our environment...imo they were 'invented' to supress people.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> In other words "religion causes" most of the trouble in the world.


No, religion is a faith people are the ones killing in the name of religion.But most religions i know of state killing is wrong.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> No, religion is a faith people are the ones killing in the name of religion.But most religions i know of state killing is wrong.


Where does an eye for an eye come into it then! or did I get that wrong?


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2010)

Religion contridicts itself I am afraid!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I dont think its Religion that causes the problems its the people who "use" religion to justify what they are doing even though its wrong - I have seen this first hand and it will always be exploited by some people.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I think some of the problems with people exploiting religion is the people that wrote the books themselves. So many things are contradicted its ridiculous!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> I think some of the problems with people exploiting religion is the people that wrote the books themselves. So many things are contradicted its ridiculous!


I agree - its very easy for someone to use certain passages in the bible for example and twist it so it can be used in other ways - often negatively etc -but the person thinks its ok cos its in the bible doesnt always mean its right what they are saying or doing though imo.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't think its religion that causes the problem,its a lack of people not showing respect for other peoples beliefs.*


Exactly, religion is a belief its people who use it and twist it for there own benefit and those peeps are not followers but plain moronic fanatics giving religion a bad name, simple as that..



Happy Paws said:


> In other words "religion causes" most of the trouble in the world.


No People do  as they do in most of the **** of this world whether it be politics, wars or religion.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Where does an eye for an eye come into it then! or did I get that wrong?





DoubleTrouble said:


> Religion contridicts itself I am afraid!


'God is great' or so they exclaim, and juxtaposition his prophet!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> I think some of the problems with people exploiting religion
> is the people that wrote the books themselves.
> So many things are contradicted its ridiculous!


it doesn't help that in many cases, the 'book' came centuries after 'the events'. 
its estimated that the Bible's old-testament was written some 250 - 400 years after the events, 
and that the new-testament was written approx 300 years after Christ's execution. 
that's a long TIME to 'remember' things, as the people who were there are long-dead.

then it was translated - from Aramaic to Hebrew, Hebrew to Latin, Latin to Greek, 
Greek to German, German to archaic French, French to English - *and mistakes in translation 
were made at each step.* one BIG error was translating G-d as 'He' - 
G-d has no gender in the Aramaic.

but over the centuries, the image of the Christian G-d 
has become indelibly MALE - so much so, priests being female is 
shockingly controversial. 
yet Christ had 3 long-term, devoted followers who were female - 
the 3 Marys - the epistle of Mary was later expunged from the 
Bible, along with other chunks that became politically un-popular 
with the early-church hierarchy. 
when questioned about a woman's duty, Christ is said to reply to 
*margaret that *mary had "chosen the better portion" - 
not washing the dishes, but listening to the lessons and talk. 
how did the later-church become so mysogynist? 

for my part, i wish Saul / Paul had been born Jewish and then converted to Dervish, 
or joined the vegetarian + visionary Essenes - he'd have done a lot less damage. 
as it was, he was born Roman + persecuted Jews - then he was converted by a celestial bolt, 
and spent the remainder of his life persecuting women - and is revered for it to this day. :thumbdown:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> can i join you?
> Out of all the religions one which is purely about respect for all life is the one that appeals to me the most!
> We can start out own uk worship! eeek... would that make us a cult?!


good idea :thumbup: worshiping the Good, having a dual-faced Divine with a male and female persona 
as well as an androgynous selfhood, and celebrating the change of the seasons sounds good. 

i have always liked the cyclic faiths; the Christians hijacked the Oestre and Equinox celebrations, 
we should take them back.  i think the Buddhist, Shinto and indigenous concepts of the Divine within 
every living thing, makes a lot of sense - and *water* BTW is living, until it is killed - so is soil, 
which can be more or less healthy, like any living being.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2010)

THE world was breathing a sigh of relief as the self-appointed head of a tiny church decided he had had enough attention for the time being.



It wasn't even the real Terry Jones Pastor Terry Jones said he would return to exploiting workers in his faith-based furniture business after getting the entire planet to stop what it was doing and listen to his idiotic nonsense for over a week.

He said: "That was remarkably easy. In fact it sort of feels like a wasted opportunity. Oh well. 

"I don't suppose anyone would like to buy a dining table?"

But as Jones went back to being a lonely fruitcake, thousands of other people who represent no-one unveiled their plans to be phoned-up by President Obama and told they are a threat to world peace. 

Bill McKay, from Grantham, said: "I've just set up the Global Church for Love and Freedom. At the moment it's me, my blow-up wife, our two beautiful DVD players and my invisible friend Stephen.

"It's currently based behind my fridge, but we are hoping to move to the downstairs lavatory if Stephen brings along some of his chums.

"Anyway, this weekend, as an act of protest, myself and my wife are going to set fire to this drawing of Buddha because I hate Buddha. His values offend me and he is also the Devil.

"Now, which microphone would you like me to speak into? Shall we start by talking about the kind of person I am and what motivates me?"

Helen Archer, founder of the International Centre for a Global World, currently based on the passenger seat of her Honda Jazz, said: "To mark the 164th anniversary of the invention of the sewing machine, I am going to take an electric sander to this statue of the Virgin Mary, because it looked at me strangely.

"I will not back down until Princess Anne takes me to see Toy Story 3 and buys me a strawberry Cornetto."


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## holly1 (Aug 10, 2010)

I work with the elderley,and one wise lady said this to me.(who was an atheist)
2 subjects that will spoil a party
Religion and politics.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

holly1 said:


> I work with the elderley,and one wise lady said this to me.(who was an atheist)
> 2 subjects that will spoil a party
> Religion and politics.


And the other two...
We're out of beer...
The toilets locked...


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

poohdog said:


> And the other...
> We're out of beer...


I wouldn't worry too much about running out of Beer, there's bound to be someone there who can turn water into wine. Cheers:thumbup: Hic!..Hic!


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## holly1 (Aug 10, 2010)

Zaros said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about running out of Beer, there's bound to be someone there who can turn water into wine. Cheers:thumbup: Hic!..Hic!


Hahahahaha


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