# Obedience and aggressive behaviour - help!



## RobbieH (Jun 17, 2011)

Hi all, firstly, sorry for not making my first post an introduction. I signed up to get help with a problem, but hopefully I'll stick around too.

I have a 10 month old male tibetan terrier and am having serious problems. He lives with me, my girlfriend and our 6 year old daughter. His early training was a hard slog, as with most dogs. Plus obviously TTs are notoriously stubborn.

We have him toilet trained fine, plus he is very sensible with regards to respecting the house. The problem we have is his dominating. When I am home alone with him he is very relaxed and sensible - even very loving. However when my girlfriend and/or daughter are home, regardless of whether I am there or not, he is out of control.

He constantly tries to overpower them both - he will jump up at them with his heavy paws, bark at them, bite, try and steal food, climb all over them - just tonight he jumped into my daughters face with all four paws - he looks like a crazed cat. When he is really bad he will even turn on me. If I try to control him he wont listen. If I have to grab him in an emergency, he will go into a death-roll like a crocodile - wrapping his paws around my forearm and biting into my hand. If I try to get him off, his 'thumb' claws rip my arms to shreds.

Because of this he still has his training cage for safety reasons, and when we lock him in it, or the garden, he will bark constantly.

We have tried all the correct techniques for his upbringing - rewarding good behaviour, ignoring bad. We never respond to his barks. He never gets punished in any way that could make him retaliate agressively. He has plenty of toys and stimulation and exercise. We dont feed him junk. We have alot of consideration for the fact that he is a puppy still, and a male one at that. I work shifts which are 4 days on, 4 days off, so there are times when he is alone for a few hours a day, but I dont think it is a seperation issue as he is like this consistently.

I am a lifelong animal lover, specifically dogs, but I am finding my self disliking him and this upsets me. I am very anxious about him harming my daughter (although I never let my guard down for a second and never leave him alone with her) and myself and my girlfriend are constantly arguing over him. The house is very stressful to the point where, if I am home alone, I start to panic when its almost time for my girlfriend and daughter to come home from work/school.

We have considered giving him up, but there is something there that stops me going through with it - when I see his nice behaviour he is the sweetest dog you will ever meet. Unfortunately we are at our wits end, and I think soon we may have to give up on him. As a last resort I'm hoping some of you might have some recognition of this specific behaviour, and some advice on controlling it. My personal opinion is that he does not respect my girlfriend and daughter in the pecking order, but I'm no expert.

Sorry for going on so long, thanks for taking the time to read.


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## jayne5364 (Oct 21, 2009)

Really have no ideas, but sorry to hear things are so stressful. I am assuming you do the feeding/care ect? Is there a safe way that your girlfriend and daughter could give food/ treats safely, say through the bars of his crate. Or from behind a baby gate so he can't get to them. 
When we got Anya, hubby was upset because she only sat with me for cuddles, followed me everywhere and would just ignore him. He now does half her feeds/walks and the relationship is much better.
Sadly I don't think a solution will be so easy for your situation and would suggest a behaviourist to help out.
Hope you can sort something out so that you can all enjoy him.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Great that you have recognised that you need help with this. Your dog is still very young and the problems you have described sound quite serious. I really think that to try to give advice on a forum could be dangerous as no one here can see the dog and the situation. You should really seek help from a behaviourist urgently. Have a look at the APBC website for a qualified behaviourist in your area.


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## RobbieH (Jun 17, 2011)

jayne5364 said:


> Really have no ideas, but sorry to hear things are so stressful. I am assuming you do the feeding/care ect? Is there a safe way that your girlfriend and daughter could give food/ treats safely, say through the bars of his crate. Or from behind a baby gate so he can't get to them.
> When we got Anya, hubby was upset because she only sat with me for cuddles, followed me everywhere and would just ignore him. He now does half her feeds/walks and the relationship is much better.
> Sadly I don't think a solution will be so easy for your situation and would suggest a behaviourist to help out.
> Hope you can sort something out so that you can all enjoy him.


Hi. We all try to do our share. I probably do around 95% of his walks though. To be honest he will cease his aggression if my girlfriend or daughter give him a treat, but it makes no impact on how he behaves with them long term, things quickly descend out of control after the treat to the point where there in no further opportunity for a follow-up treat for him to learn from. In fact what seems to occur is that he will become more demanding afterwards, whereas if I give him a treat he will recognise the behaviour that resulted in him being rewarded.



lucylastic said:


> Great that you have recognised that you need help with this. Your dog is still very young and the problems you have described sound quite serious. I really think that to try to give advice on a forum could be dangerous as no one here can see the dog and the situation. You should really seek help from a behaviourist urgently. Have a look at the APBC website for a qualified behaviourist in your area.


Hi. I was hoping for some general behaviour control advice that I may not have thought of. I totally understand what you say though about the danger of giving advice on the unknown.

Part of me feels that it is a dominance thing that can be adjusted, and part of me thinks maybe he's just not a very nice dog, and he can just about sustain respect for my place in the pecking order. I suppose you can get dogs with personality defects just like humans. (Although he does have an excellent pedigree so I dont think its a problem from that angle).

You both suggested a behaviourist - I may look into that. Thanks.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I would consider getting in a behaviourisst to assess him and help you put a programme in place to sort him out CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers should find one in your area.

In the meantime, its likely he is now maturing and pushing at his boundaries and seeing what he can get away with. Is he still entire and are you thinking about getting him neutered? They can also get to a point where they get so hyper and over excited it can manifest in biting growly behaviour where they literally cant switch off and wind down. Is he still on a puppy food? when they get to a certain age and have finished growth or its really slowed down too much protein can make them hyper and wild, as can artificial additives colourings and certain fillers, Dont know what food he is on but its best to put him on one with natural listed ingrediants and nothing artificial, some of the super market ones like bakers etc have been known to make dogs hyper.

I would also look at his exercise levels and maybe think about upping them maybe, That usually gets rid of excess energy making them calmer.
I would also start making him work for things, if you havent already maybe think about doing 2 or 3 10/15 minute a day with him getting him to do the basics, sit down stay wait recall etc. Upping his training should help you get control. If he jumps up and attention seeks, fold your arms turn your back and as you are doing it tell him off, and just walk away and ignore, him and carry on until he has calmed down. If he stays calm then get him to sit and then reward him. If he carries on anytime or wont calm, then pop him out in another room, leve him to calm down for 5/10 minutes let him out and ignore him for a bit longer and if he stays calm then get him to sit and reward and give attention.
If he starts again out he goes and keep repeating it. You need to act quickly with timing, before he really gets into the bad behaviour, follow through and be consistant.

In the meantime until you get a behaviourist if you are considering one, hope this might help. Only other thing I would mention is maybe getting him into a training class most are only an hour a week, then you practice at home. For a training class near you Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK should find you one.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RobbieH said:


> I have a 10 month old male tibetan terrier and am having serious problems. He lives with me, my girlfriend and our 6 year old daughter. His early training was a hard slog, as with most dogs. Plus obviously TTs are notoriously stubborn.
> 
> We have him toilet trained fine, plus he is very sensible with regards to respecting the house. The problem we have is his dominating. When I am home alone with him he is very relaxed and sensible - even very loving. However when my girlfriend and/or daughter are home, regardless of whether I am there or not, he is out of control.
> 
> He constantly tries to overpower them both - he will jump up at them with his heavy paws, bark at them, bite, try and steal food, climb all over them


First off Tibetan Terriers are known for very vocal barking.

Secondly, at early puppy stage, I sorted the kind of behaviour you describe in a very vigorous BC pup, by basic obedience training, the rattle of training treat box meant that all in contact with the puppy could gain control of the situation and calm it.

How does your girlfriend and daughter react to this boisterous behaviour?

I think it is *very important* to have such a pup understand it is working for treats in a mini-training session. Teach that *Obedience pays off*.

From the description of the problem, it sounds like the treating was more akin to "Danegeld", so I would guess they've rewarded the wrong things. That the pup behaves well with you suggests as much.

Agree that it would likely benefit you, to have an objective expert observer, who can then make suggestions. The Glossary has section on UK Behaviorist organisations, should you not find someone suitable from CABT-COAPE in your area - http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/168383-glossary-explanation-abbreviations-acronyms-jargon.html


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I'd also recommend a behaviourist. In the meantime, so the dog can be removed safely when he goes OTT, a short length of lead attached to his collararound the house, with the hand-loop cut off so it can't snag - about 15 inches long - gives you something you can get hold of without getting clawed.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

The only trainer & behaviourist organisation I would suggest you try is The Guild Of Dog Trainers (2008), they are new but the trainers were already established in their own right. The member trainers are very mixed as to what methods they use but of utmost value to you is their rule 10. They will not tolerate a trainer taking money from a client when the dog is not responding to whatever method an individual is trying, so I suggest you contact one of them near you, if they think your dog is outside their own training knowledge or methods they will refer you to someone who is. Please be carefull of behaviourst and trainers theres lots of increasing controversy about them, read the users video feeback below, one of them, APBC is the largest commercial behaviourist organisations & it has beein in existance for 21 years. It has only has 49 members in 21 years, there are 10 million dogs in UK (Bristol uni survey) & they are so unpopular APBC has only managed to find occasional PT work for 49 members in UK. There are no recognised qualifications for trainers or behaviourists by the way.

Guild Of Dog Trainers
The Guild of Dog Trainers - Dog Training, Dog Training and Behaviour, Dog Training Courses, Dog Behaviour Courses


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> The only trainer & behaviourist organisation I would suggest you try is The Guild Of Dog Trainers (2008), they are new but the trainers were already established in their own right. The member trainers are very mixed as to what methods they use but of utmost value to you is their rule 10. They will not tolerate a trainer taking money from a client when the dog is not responding to whatever method an individual is trying, so I suggest you contact one of them near you, if they think your dog is outside their own training knowledge or methods they will refer you to someone who is. Please be carefull of behaviourst and trainers theres lots of increasing controversy about them, read the users video feeback below, one of them, APBC is the largest commercial behaviourist organisations & it has beein in existance for 21 years. It has only has 49 members in 21 years, there are 10 million dogs in UK (Bristol uni survey) & they are so unpopular APBC has only managed to find occasional PT work for 49 members in UK. There are no recognised qualifications for trainers or behaviourists by the way.
> 
> Guild Of Dog Trainers
> The Guild of Dog Trainers - Dog Training, Dog Training and Behaviour, Dog Training Courses, Dog Behaviour Courses
> ...


The CAPBT Link I gave you does have to have qualifications to join, even the stage 1 takes a year of study, which has to be passed before carrying on to the next lot of qualifications. If the courses are not passed, then a person cannot be a member. If you are not happy with any member, then you can report them to the governing body, much as you would a vet to the RCVS.

Unlike the Poster, who seems to use shock collars, for even basic obdience training, the CAPBT dont. Incidently the use of shock collars and such things are Banned in wales and if caught, there are heavy fines and even imprisonment I believe. DRFRA are just about to do a study too on the use of shock collars associated with the welfare of dogs, so its possible that they will eventually be Banned UK wide, I believe but you would have to double check certain EEC countries already have a ban in place.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi
your dog doesn`t know about pecking orders. Pecking orders don`t happen among dogs. 
He also doesn`t know your daughter is a child. How could he? He`s never seen one grow up. To him she`s a short unpredictable human. Dogs have to be taught about kids. 
There seems to be a very basic mis-communication here and really you need a properly qualified person to come and observe the situation in the house, and the relationships. 
For nw, I would use safety gates to keep him separate from the child.
Have you read Jean Donaldsons` The Culture Clash? It`s very good on basics. 
Perhaps if you say what area you are in, someone can recommend a trainer?


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

I second the recommendation for "The Culture Clash" A must read book for dog owners. Clear and easy to follow too. Doesn't get bogged down in technical and scientific jargon.


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## RobbieH (Jun 17, 2011)

Thanks for everyones input. I've been closely observing and it looks like part of the problem is that my girlfriend and daughter avoid and moan at his behaviour, rather than using communication to let him know he is doing wrong (Its probably too much to expect a young child to be disciplined in dog training anyway). It is something I've discussed in the past but for whatever reasons I seem to be the only one consistently doing it.

I have taken on board everything from here, and we are going to have a family talk about where to go next.

I've a feeling that it may be in everyones best interest, including his, if he goes to a home where he will get more focused and consistent training.

Thanks again everyone.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RobbieH said:


> rather than using communication to let him know he is doing wrong (Its probably too much to expect a young child to be disciplined in dog training anyway). It is something I've discussed in the past but for whatever reasons I seem to be the only one consistently doing it.
> 
> I have taken on board everything from here, and we are going to have a family talk about where to go next.
> 
> I've a feeling that it may be in everyones best interest, including his, if he goes to a home where he will get more focused and consistent training


All they likely need to do is engage the pup/young dog on controlled terms ie if he's over boisterous, reach for rewards box and get him calmed down by puppy push-ups (lie down, stand, sit etc). They don't need to be expert dog handlers who have the timing, detachment and proportionality to do effective punishment.

The reason to engage an impartial expert, is for them to be person who explains what the dog needs from your partner and daughter. Re-homing is not easy, presumbably you got a dog for good reasons and behaviour is normally modifiable when everyone is consistent. This dog is effectively passively trained to behave the way he does, by the people involved, so he will learn and is not stupid.

Dogs do need attention and just like children, if they don't get attention for good behaviour, they learn that acting out often does get the attention they crave (even though it's unpleasant it's better than feeling ignored).

Your Daughter like any young person needs supervision with a dog, until they have thorough grasp of basic rules and show consistent responsibility.


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## Helskibeat (Sep 5, 2011)

HI there RobbieH, just reading through your responses as we have a TT who is one year (have 2 children aged 4&7) and are experiencing similar problems. 

We're about to start researching into a behaviourist and wondered how you got on? Did you manage to work things out?


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

TT's are actually pretty intelligent dogs, rather than stubborn I would say they will do what you want but only if they can see the point ie something in it for them. They don't like being left alone and are well known for barking, with a pretty big bark for a not so big dog! 

Obviously hard to say without seeing the OPs dog but would seriously doubt he was trying to "dominant" anyone and probably not aggressive either, just a young dog wanting attention/to play and had not been taught not to bite or jump on people.


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

HI RobbieH,
Sorry to hear you are having such a bad time. I know how you feel, having gome through a big slump with my 15 month Sporting Lucas x Jack Russell Terrier. Terriers seem to be a bit prone to these sorts of problems, but maybe that's just a generalisation. I am no expert at all but things that have helped me have been this website first and foremost, for all the help and support I have got - see my post 'aggressive to Other Dogs'. Other things have been:
1. Getting him neutered - this really helped reduce his 'attitude' without spoiling his personality. YOu could ask the vet to take off his dewclaws at the same time, which is quite straightforward and avoids them getting ripped in a squirmish
2. I've just started him on Bach Essence Cherry plum, 2 drops 3xdaily. He has only been on it 3 days and already I can see he is much calmer and more focused
3. Using an H harness but fastening it at the front, at his chest. It is now much easier to turn him away from things and walk him without having my arm pulled out of the socket. I praise him for complying with my request to come here, as I lead him towards me
4. I would definitely consider a Behaviour therapist - although I haven't used one myself. 
5. Books 'Click to Calm' by Emma Parsons, and 'Think Dog' & 'Why does my Dog?' by John Fisher are really helpful - you can usually get 2nd hand on ebay.
6. I would try and knacker him with loads of exercise. I have got a bike and I bought a running harness for Muffin that attaches to the back wheel and keeps him safely at my side. He is able to run alongside while i pedal along. I thought he would pull me off the bike but it doesn't happen that way - apparently even with big dogs. 
7. I changed Muffin from tinned food and BAkers (full of e numbers) to a dried type -plain chicken and rice. Apparently dried food is more bland and calming. 
8. Have you tried making him work for all his food? No actual meals for free but a small handful of the dried food when he complies with a request to 'sit' or 'down' for a short time. 
9. Get your daughter and girlfriend to become the carers. They give the request and the handful of food, not you. You try to reduce your attention to the dog and give lots of attention to the girlfriend and daughter (maybe that'll help them and you too:wink Get your daughter to sit on a nice high comfy place - maybe the best seat in the house kinda thing. Also serve the child's meal and girlfirends meal first, and all eat your food while the dog waits. Then a few training commands for him to obey to get some of his food.
10. Have a look at my post re use of Pet Corrector. THere are very mixed opinions to this item, but I can only say that if it is used sensitively and specifically for a short and controlled time I think it can be helpful rather than destructive. But it MUST be used in conjunction with asking your dog to do something else instead of the behaviour he is showing, so that he learns 'not like this, like that' rather than just 'no no NO!' If you decide to try it I would decide on one behaviour that you want to work on (maybe not the worst one first) and just see if you can change that one first. Every little helps. Also be aware that if you over use the spray it will cease to have any effect - its value is in the initial shock effect only and you have to build in a command and new behaviour asap with a reward for his compliance.
11. YOu can reduce his thinking that he is Kingpin by having all his toys and belongings in one box/cupboard etc, and only dole out one at a time for a short time and then put it away. Get your daughter to be the one to take it out and put it back so that she becomes the Keeper of all things Nice. Obviously if he is showing any guarding type aggression you would need to think carefully about this one, and take expert advice. I agree that your daughter needs to be under constant supervision anywhere near the dog, and I think the idea about safety gates is a very good one.
I must emphasise that I am a total newbie to all this stuff and certainly no kind of expert whatever, and last week this time I was at my wits' end with Muffin. My problem is by no means cleared up, but I can see light at the end of the tunnel, which has really helped me. I am taking the Cherry Plum myself and it is brilliant for me too!
Good luck and keep positive. Remember your dog can be a sweet and lovely little mate, and that's the bit of him that you want to hang onto - don't give up, it CAN be sorted!


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## Wagtime (Mar 21, 2011)

Interested to read your post and surprised that you think TT's are stubborn. They are actually very bright and the ones I have worked with have been very quick to learn and respond to positive training. But it has to be consistent and if everyone isn't doing the same thing, then the training won't work.

At 10 months old, he's getting into the teenager stage and is definitely beginning to push his boundaries. However, it's not about pecking orders or dominance, he really doesn't want to take over the world! It's more about him turning into a "Kevin"!!

Would definitely suggest you find a local training class or trainer to help you and include your girlfriend and daughter in the class too as this will help them build a relationship with your dog too that is based on having fun and working together. It's not the same as working with a behaviourist, but I find that I get good behaviour as a result of the training sessions I do so it's a bonus. But bear in mind that this will take some work on everyone's part and it's not going to be a quick fix.

Good luck and keep in touch,
Sara.


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

<Profanity Self Censored> !

Dogs are the family protectors - not home grown terrorists and bullies.

With you all feeling anti this dog the training might best address the whole family together rather then just training the dog. I think your pecking order theory is right and as a family you need to look at strategies that increase their status within the family. As a man you have a deep tone of voice and the power to instil your will on him and he will be testing the limits to see where his place is. Wife and daughter might be in control of his food supply, and he had to work for it with good behaviour. Just because he should get xxx grams of food per meal does not mean that you can not break that into two halves for which he has to be well behaved to get the first one - then repeat that good behaviour to get seconds.

If this means he misses a whole meal does not mean you are a bad parent and the dog with die of starvation over night.

You say he has plenty of toys, does he have free access to them?

Have you considered that play is an earned pleasure not his right to play with a toy at will. Having your wife be seen to get the toy and give to him when he sits for it en-stills that she is the master of giving.

For one of my dogs to growl at one of the kids or their friends that visit they would get a human bite (slap) and isolated from the pack at once, but it's not happened. Before the dogs lived with kids full time they were only really exposed to them at family parties and BBQs where the kids would like playing with and feeding the dogs, it established that feel good relationship.

Good luck with your mission, IMHO to get the love and dedication that your family deserve from this dog some tough love would help communicate in a language the dog understands. As his application of force seems to be working as he is getting food and toys.


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Wagtime said:


> Interested to read your post and surprised that you think TT's are stubborn. They are actually very bright and the ones I have worked with have been very quick to learn and respond to positive training. But it has to be consistent and if everyone isn't doing the same thing, then the training won't work.


Exactly! I'm working with one of them. She is 6 mo and she is brilliant. I never saw a puppy so focused and wiling to work. Of course she still will loose her focus but after few minutes of rest she is ready to work 
She will jumps and barks, but this is a part of her. 
TT are active breed, they need mental and physical stimulation, so opened door to the garden and toys on the floor is not enough for them (okay not only for them)
You can use interactive toys, but they need supervision when they "play" with them. This can be fun for your daughter as well

Interactive Dog Toys - Training Lines

To feed him you can use treat ball:
Kibble Nibble Ball Treat Dispensing Dog Toy - Training Lines
Hide-A-Treat Giggler Ball Treat Dispensing Dog Toys

Attach puppy line to dog collar, that will give you more control over him, but don't leave a puppy unsupervised , he can hurt himself. If he will misbehave you pick up a line (no talk, no touch no eye contact  ) and give your puppy time out. 30 sec in a place with no toys and nothing to destroy.By stepping on line you can prevent puppy from jumping up.
Set up clear rules and everybody in family have to stick with them. Do some training especially impulse control. 
Take a puppy on the lead, toss a toy on the floor far from puppy, he cannot reach it. You walking towards a toy only if a dog is walking nicely. He learns that to have something he has to let it go at first. You can wait till he looks at you and prise him for that (clicker is really useful) using food or other toy.

This should helps as well, but with this protocol you have to be patient, really patient. It isn't so easy to do even if look so. 
Champion of My Heart » Relaxation Protocol MP3 Files


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Don't know how to do them fancy quote boxes, but from post above:
*For one of my dogs to growl at one of the kids or their friends that visit they would get a human bite (slap)* 
I thought we weren't supposed to smack them??!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> EDITED & *bold added - *
> 
> [*If] one of my dogs [growled] at one of [my] kids or their friends [who] visit, [the dog] would get a human bite*
> (a slap) & [be] isolated from the pack [AKA family] at once...


for many reasons which have been repeatedly explained on PF-uk, it is a very bad idea to *punish* a growl.

however, that is Ur dog, Ur children, & Ur children's friends; if U choose to slap the dog, or otherwise punish 
a dog for trying to communicate their fear, worry, or anxiety, U may succeed in SILENCING the dog's growl. 
If the dog later bites WITHOUT growling, please don't blame us - it was Ur choice & Ur decision. 
:001_smile:

here is a search on PF-uk for more details: 'growls are good' 
http://tinyurl.com/3h2k5j9

an article by Charlotte Peltz, IAABC - _'GRRrrrr, one more time...'_
http://tinyurl.com/3jwua85

the entire collection of Ms Peltz' articles: 
Listing of Articles


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## stevemilw (Nov 10, 2014)

Hello

Sorry to post on an old thread but this comes up in google as one of the first posts about dog aggression in Tibetan terriers.

Just wandering how you got on, and whether you still have him.

Thanks


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

stevemilw said:


> Hello
> 
> Sorry to post on an old thread but this comes up in google as one of the first posts about dog aggression in Tibetan terriers.
> 
> ...


You may need to start a new thread if you are having problems as the OP last came onto the forum almost 3 1/2 years ago if you look at their profile so are unlikely to come back and reply.


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