# Arrived Here in Desperation; RE Dog Behaviour Towards Other Dogs & People



## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

Hello to all on the forum. This is my first post - I literally came across this site during an internet search worded 'help with dog behaviour'. I apologise if this first post is rather lengthy, but I'll try to give you a brief background and explain our problems without writing an essay!

Back in 2010, my husband and I adopted a (then) 7-month-old female Border Collie (Sammie) from a local dog 'rescue' centre (a centre which we later learned has a dubious reputation, to say the least). At the time of adoption, we were misinformed by numerous staff members that Sammie was 'fine' with other dogs, and people. We were soon to learn that, not only was this incorrect, but in fact, Sammie had actually only been at the rescue centre for TWO DAYS before they allowed us to adopt and take her home; not nearly enough time for them to have assessed her as fully as they told us they had. All they knew about her (or were willing to tell us?) is that she had come from another rescue home in another part of the country. In hindsight, we rushed into the adoption without fully checking the centre and their practices. In our defence, we were still grieving over the loss of our old dog (to cancer) and our judgement was clouded. If we could turn back time, we would not have gone through with the adoption - but we cannot turn back time and we are _trying_ to deal with things the best way we can.

To cut a long story short; Sammie is very nervous of all other dogs, and most people. We have spent the last three years referring to her problems as 'nervous-aggressive', but, after spending a little time browsing this forum, I now wonder if some of you would use the term 'reactive'..?

Walking - or attempting to walk - Sammie has been nothing but a chore for the past three years, and unfortunately, is not something any of us find to be an enjoyable activity. At the mere sight of another dog, Sammie will start to growl. Her hackles will go up, she growls loudly and barks continuously, standing on her hind legs and lunging on the lead. Until recently we have only ever dared to walk her with a basket muzzle on - more from the fear of being approached by an off-lead dog and being uncertain about what may happen if that situation arose.

Initially, we tried various things which we thought may help Sammie. We tried getting her used to seeing other animals and people by taking her out in the car with us (she is a model car passenger; she travels beautifully) and taking her to fairly public places. We'd never leave the car, but rather sit in public places, and just let her 'take in' her surroundings. We would reward her with treats for sitting calmly in the car if someone passed closely by; we would tell her 'no' if she growled at someone. I can't tell you the amount of hours we've spent sitting in supermarket car-parks!!

We've tried walking her and ignoring the 'bad' behaviour. We've tried walking her and saying 'no' to the bad behaviour. We've tried every ludicrous idea we could come up with, all the while, feeling like failures when no real progress has been made.

In May this year, we enlisted the help of a dog trainer/behaviourist. His methods involve an 'aversion technique'; basically, we reward and treat Sammie for walking calmly on the lead. If and when we approach another dog whilst out walking, we stop and wait for the dog to pass by. If Sammie starts to growl, we position ourselves between her and the other dog and make her take a step back. If she growls again, we either repeat this action (to interrupt the behaviour) or - and I'm not sure how this is going to sit with those of you who have more experience than us! - we squirt Sammie with water. As the behaviourist explained it to us, the quick squirt of water (which must be directed at the head/face) is a short, painless shock, which interrupts the unwanted behaviour. Sammie doesn't see the water is coming from us, and the water is never used to threaten or intimidate her.

I'm not too sure about using this method, though. Aside from what Sammie may or may not think about it, we now not only have the embarrassment of an anti-social dog on our lead, but also the added embarrassment of people looking at us gone-out when we squirt water at our growling companion!

In all seriousness, my husband and I have spent most of our time seriously regretting taking on Sammie, although we never knew we were adopting a dog with behavioural problems. We know that, as soon as her problems became apparent, we could have taken her back to the 'rescue' centre and that would have been the end of it for us. But by that time, even after those first few days, not only were we already attached to Sammie, but we were also extremely reluctant to take her back to a place that doesn't seem to care much about where they send their dogs. We didn't want to give up on Sammie, even though we knew we weren't equipped to deal with her issues and we'd never intended on owning a dog with problems. It's not as though we knowingly took on a dog that needed specialist help and then failed to provide it; we found ourselves trapped in a situation we genuinely didn't know how to handle.

Does anyone have any hints, tips, or advice for us? Recently we have been talking more and more about the possibility of re-homing Sammie (although not quite sure how that could/would ever happen) because we feel we are not the best owners for her - we feel we just can't give Sammie the help she needs - we don't know _how_.

Are we right? Or should we persevere?

We're at the end of our tether and feel like complete failures. I often find myself in tears these days because I feel 'trapped' in the situation. I feel like all this stress and anxiety is going to be never-ending... If anyone feels they can offer any helpful advice, it would be most appreciated... even if it may be advice on the best ways to try re-homing Sammie safely...


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

This might sound a bit off-the-cuff given the seriousness of Sammie's behaviour, but have you tried teaching her a really strong "Watch me" (getting her to look at your face) or "Touch" (using a target stick or just the inside of your hand) cue? If you can do this she'll be totally focused on you, or nuzzled into your hand whilst other dogs walk past, so she'll be able to walk past other dogs without a problem. (Although it won't help if she actually has to meet other dogs rather than just walk past them). Sometimes it's easier to train and cue a better behaviour than trying to un-train old habits.


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## lotlot (Mar 28, 2011)

I'm so sorry you feel trapped. It must be very tough. It seems to me that she really requires some good, positive socialisation. Do you have many visitors to your house? If so, how is she with them? Could you get some friends to help you out, by giving her treats from a distance and creating a positive association with new people?

My dog is three years old now and he has been through phases of being reactive to everything from plastic bags, people, dogs, bikes, lampposts...the list is endless. I spent soo much time socialising him, getting strangers to give him treats but being quite bossy with them too, as I found that if they lent over him even slightly then it'd set him off. He has a brilliant heel command and used this when walking past something he may react to. mostly it worked well. I spent every walk being so aware of what may be round the corner and would creep crossing roads to avoid dogs. Once he was ok at a certain distance, I reduced this. It was a very slow process but he is always improving. There are days that he is worse, but these are very few and far between.

I would stop splashing her with water, it'll just create more anxiety. Think about making everything positive for her! 

I hope this helps


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## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

Lizz1155 said:


> ...have you tried teaching her a really strong "Watch me" (getting her to look at your face) or "Touch" (using a target stick or just the inside of your hand) cue? Sometimes it's easier to train and cue a better behaviour than trying to un-train old habits.


Thank you for your reply - no, we had not thought about trying something like this. Would you recommend a particular website, article or book to help me put something like this into practice..? I will look into it and discuss with my husband doing something like this, thank you again x


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## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

lotlot said:


> Do you have many visitors to your house? If so, how is she with them? Could you get some friends to help you out, by giving her treats from a distance and creating a positive association with new people?
> 
> I would stop splashing her with water, it'll just create more anxiety. Think about making everything positive for her!
> 
> I hope this helps


Thanks very much for your understanding - I was worried about even making this thread in case people judged us for the mistakes we've (unintentionally) made...

We recently re-located 90-miles away from our home town, so at the moment we receive VERY few visitors to our house. When we DO have visitors we usually have to put Sammie in a separate room behind a pet safety gate, sometimes with the door closed aswell, as she will bark and growl at the person or people. Even if she can't see them, if she hears them moving around or they talk loudly, she'll still bark and growl.

We regularly have my Dad come out to stay with us for two or three weeks at a time. Initially, when he first arrives, she will always grumble and bark at him, even though she knows him. Luckily, my Dad absolutely adores her - he really does love her to pieces - so he just ignores her anti-social behaviour. He talks to her and gently strokes her (even as she's growling) and after a few hours, she settles down and from then on, she's like his shadow. She follows him around, plays ball with him, sits with him and lets him fuss her... they always end up like the best of friends. It's just that first couple of hours, and then she's OK.

I haven't been at all sure about the water-squirting. I know the behaviourist gave it a fancy name; aversion technique... but even so, I haven't been convinced about its effectiveness. Yes, it does stop the behaviour in the first instance, but we haven't really noticed any long-term improvement. And we are still finding ourselves wanting to avoid all other dogs, _especially_ ones we see that are off-lead...


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## lotlot (Mar 28, 2011)

Do you know anything about her past at all? She desperately needs more socialisation. She doesn't know how to react to new people or dogs and therefore becomes overly stressed. Could you maybe take her to your vets and get everyone to offer treats, or a local pet shop? It's all about building positive associations with everyone she meets.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm not a behaviourist/trainer, but if I was one, I'd be inclined to test her with a stooge dog (obviously muzzled for safety) but this sounds like she's so frightened she knows growling and barking gets them away. She needs walks with a regular group of dogs to really understand that they will do her no harm.
My golden retriever is a less extreme example of your girl - she's way too neurotic for a golden because she was undersocialised as a puppy, we went into getting her with clouded judgement really same as you thinking she'll be fine, and she was kind of a shock to our systems after our first golden. Having said that, she did want to socialise, she just wasn't sure. It took a good few weeks for her to get used to walking with our regular group of dogs - she was particularly afraid of the leonberger because he was so big and tall, and just kept giving a scared bark at him, but because she was off lead, she had the time and space to deal with it on her own.
I spent quite a bit of time training her as a result - she knows 'watch me' and has a recall, although I do need to make sure I've got her before she sees another dog in the distance as the recall can then get a bit dodgy. She wouldn't do any physical harm to the other dog, she just barks at them but if the owner decides to put their dog on the lead, it gets worse as the other dog can sometimes get wound up and she starts trying to intimidate them.
Teaching 'watch me' is very easy - just get the dog's attention with a treat and hold it to your eyes, when they hold that look, praise and treat. Have you tried seeing if you can get her distracted with food around dogs? I presume you have, but you haven't mentioned it.


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## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

lotlot said:


> Do you know anything about her past at all? She desperately needs more socialisation. She doesn't know how to react to new people or dogs and therefore becomes overly stressed. Could you maybe take her to your vets and get everyone to offer treats, or a local pet shop? It's all about building positive associations with everyone she meets.


All we know about her past is that she was bred in Wales for sheepdog training. For whatever reason, she, like many pups bred for this purpose, didn't make the grade and she was marked for 'destruction'. She was taken from the breeder by a rescue centre in Wales who then immediately gave her seven days; seven days to find a home for her, or put her to sleep. On the sixth day she was taken by the rescue centre we adopted her from. That's literally all we know.

When we saw her in the rescue, she was in a kennel with another Collie, and surrounded by other dogs in other pens, so she has been around other dogs. At the time, she was showing no signs of aggression - although she didn't seem particularly happy, she wasn't really reacting to the dogs and/or people around her - but, in hindsight, we now think this was because she just felt so overwhelmed by everything going on around her.

We did try taking her to the vets where we used to live, just to sit in the waiting area and try to get her used to the other animals and people around us, but even that gets difficult when people just won't respect your requests to 'please call your dog away' or 'please don't let your child scream at my dog' etc etc... people who don't have dogs with social problems just don't usually understand your need for a little distance. They think because their dog is 'friendly', that it's ok, and if your dog's nervous or aggressive, it's not their problem! For this reason we've gradually found ourselves avoiding other people - I KNOW this only adds to the problem and doesn't help, the only thing it does help is our own stress levels...

These are all more reasons why we've been considering re-homing Sammie with someone who is 'better' at this than we are; someone who knows what they're doing and can offer her more than we feel we can :sad:


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

CMLW2013 said:


> Thank you for your reply - no, we had not thought about trying something like this. Would you recommend a particular website, article or book to help me put something like this into practice..? I will look into it and discuss with my husband doing something like this, thank you again x


Hiya, Karen Pryor has a useful introduction to target training here: Target Training | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

She likes to use an aluminium wand for targeting, which makes sense if you need to do something specialized with your dog, like getting it to go over hurdles or perform a dance routine(!) However for walking I would suggest using the palm of your hand, since it ensures that your dog will remain close to you, will semi-obscure the dog's vision from anything approaching her, and she should find the scent of her owner reassuring. Many people also use the target/touch command as an emergency recall, since it's always associated with lovely things (whereas "come here" can involve having a lead clipped on and going home).

There's also a good training guide to targeting (along with many other things) in Pat Miller's "The power of positive dog training". (Title's a bit cliched but the content is really useful).

Teaching the "watch me" command usually starts with getting your dog to sit in front of you, then raising the treat to your eye level so that the dog makes eye contact with you (or something very close to eye contact, since not all dogs like to make direct eye contact to begin with). You then click and treat, and repeat numerous times.

Once you know your dog will look at your eyes/face when you hold the treat up at eye level, you begin using whatever command you want to apply to the behaviour. Hold the treat at eye level, say your command, then click and treat. Repeat numerous times.

If your dog is really clever and works out what the command means, begin using it in a non-distracting environment. Say the command, wait for your dog to look at you, then click and treat: This time, you do not hold the treat up at eye level, you just give it. Repeat many times.

If your dog is unsure what the command means but recognizes the "holding the treat up at eye level" gesture, continue to hold the treat up at eye level but move on to training the command when she's not already sitting facing you. Use a non-distracting environment, (usually indoors somewhere), wait until she's a little distracted sniffing something else, say the command, hold the treat at eye level, click and treat when she makes eye contact/looks at your face. And repeat many times.

As she gets to learn the command, delay the click and treat - ie. get her to look at you, pause, then click and treat. Now you're only treating her for really good "watch me's". Gradually increase the time you ask her to watch you for, but alternate it with shorter "watch me's" so that she doesn't get bored at not being treated: E.g a 2-second watch me, a 10-second watch me, a 3-second watch me, 11 seconds... etc

Then you gradually move on to more distracting environments - back garden, front garden, 100 yards down the road etc...

It's likely your dog will pick up one of these commands quicker than the other, so I'd work out which one your dog is best at and focus on training that one. Maybe still train the other command as a back-up, but only after the other command is pretty good.


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## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

Wiz201 said:


> She needs walks with a regular group of dogs to really understand that they will do her no harm.
> 
> Teaching 'watch me' is very easy - just get the dog's attention with a treat and hold it to your eyes, when they hold that look, praise and treat. Have you tried seeing if you can get her distracted with food around dogs? I presume you have, but you haven't mentioned it.


Thank you for your advice. I believe I've seen a large-ish group of dogs being walked on the park behind my house... I may be able to ask the walkers if I could tag along, although the dogs are always off-lead and I'm not sure how I - or Sammie - would deal with that?!

We have tried to distract her with food treats around other dogs but a) most of the time she isn't interested, and b) we were 'admonished' for doing this by a vet who quite rightly pointed out that Sammie would see these treats as a reward for the growling (based on our timing of actually giving the treats)... once again an example of our inexperience :closedeyes:


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## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

Liz1155 - We do actually have a clicker, so I think I could really get on to this today. Thanks for the tips and guidance.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I feel for you, I really do. I also took on a rescue dog who turned out to have serious issues. Rupert was people friendly but other animals were another matter entirely. Walks were a chore and a stressful chore at that. His reactions to other dogs were embarrassing at best, downright scary at worst. Sadly you have to learn to be very assertive, even rude, when it comes to protecting your dog from the "friendly" dogs and people you'll encounter. I walked Rupert at anti social times to minimise how many other dogs we met, we stuck to on leash areas (not that that helped much, we were often accosted by loose dogs on the main road) and I learned to use my voice and body language to see other dogs off.

The last thing I would be doing with a dog as fearful as yours sounds is throwing her in at the deep end with a group of dogs and people. She'll be way WAY over threshold that way and could go one of two ways, either shut down completely and seem fine but inside be absolutely petrified. Or become even worse than she is now. Neither of which you want. You need to start off with one neutral dog (not one who wants to be best buddies, one who'll ignore her) at a distance SHE is comfortable with and start there.

Whereabouts are you (general area, I'm not some creep after your address lol), perhaps somebody will know of a good behaviourist in the area. I really do think you need in person help with this sort of problem. None of us can see your dog and see exactly what's going on, when exactly she becomes anxious etc.

I would absolutely NOT be spraying her with water or using any other sort of punishment for the behaviour. She's frightened, punishing her for reacting when frightened isn't going to do anything to make her less frightened and is more than likely going to make her even more worried as she'll associate the punishment with the other dog or person appearing. She needs to know that you will protect her, not that you will punish her for her fear. I'd be trying to stay at a distance where she doesn't feel the need to react (easier said than done I know) and if you do find yourself in a situation where she's over threshold and reacting then just get out of it ASAP. When she's reacting she's not going to learn anything so it's a case of just minimising the reaction by getting out of there as soon as you possibly can.

Watch me can be an excellent thing for some dogs. For others being asked to not look at what is worrying them can actually make them more worried. If I blocked Ruperts view of another dog, whether by asking for a watch me or by physically blocking him, he panicked massively. There's also the Look at That game which teaches the dog to look at the trigger and look back to you for a reward. Again, works with some dogs and not others. Another option is to teach her to hide behind you while you see off the invading dog or person.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

CMLW2013 said:


> Thank you for your advice. I believe I've seen a large-ish group of dogs being walked on the park behind my house... I may be able to ask the walkers if I could tag along, although the dogs are always off-lead and I'm not sure how I - or Sammie - would deal with that?!
> 
> We have tried to distract her with food treats around other dogs but a) most of the time she isn't interested, and b) we were 'admonished' for doing this by a vet who quite rightly pointed out that Sammie would see these treats as a reward for the growling (based on our timing of actually giving the treats)... once again an example of our inexperience :closedeyes:


I don't know your dog & am not a trainer but large group of dogs may be intimidating for her. When we foirst got Roxy (rescue GSD) she was very reactive towards other dogs (amongst other problems) yet when presenbted with a situation of lots of other dogs was very quiet. It was because she was obverwhlemd by the situation & although looked as if she was 'behaving herslelf' she wasn't at all - she had sort of shut down.

Initially (despite not having had any meals) she would not take food as 'rewards' as she was too over threshold & almost couldn'treat as she was so wound up. Once we distanced ourselves from the trigger & she could relax a bit more then we could start to work on training exercises. It can take so long to gradually build up & so easy to push things too early on.

I think it's great that you are loking for advice but after such a long time tof this behaviour continuing I woudl think you would really benefit form seeking professional advice. At times, the advice & training tips we pick up through books, internets, etc are very beneficial but it's the way we deliver them that is crucial. Having someone watch you (as well as your dog) will be very helpful.

Where are you based, someone may be able to recommend someone who could help?


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## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

Blimey...

So much to think about. So many options and possibilities and suggestions. So many 'right' ways and so many 'wrong' ways - I would never have intentionally taken on a dog who needs helps like this. It just feels like whatever we try, someone will tell us 'that's wrong it won't work' or 'don't do it like that, do it like this'... I thank you all immensely for the advice you've already given, and on 'paper' it all makes good sense... but the prospect of trying to put it into practice leaves me feeling bewildered and not knowing what to do for the best.

Sarah, I'm in North Wales (Wrexham)... Know anyone who wants to take on a troubled Border Collie..? (only half-joking).


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## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> ...when presenbted with a situation of lots of other dogs was very quiet. It was because she was obverwhlemd by the situation & although looked as if she was 'behaving herslelf' she wasn't at all - she had sort of shut down.


This is EXACTLY what we think was happening with Sammie when we first saw her in the rescue. And, seeing as they had only had her for two days, they had not made the time to properly assess her and realise for themselves that, actually, she was NOT comfortable around other dogs!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> The last thing I would be doing with a dog as fearful as yours sounds is throwing her in at the deep end with a group of dogs and people. She'll be way WAY over threshold that way and could go one of two ways, either shut down completely and seem fine but inside be absolutely petrified. Or become even worse than she is now. Neither of which you want. You need to start off with one neutral dog (not one who wants to be best buddies, one who'll ignore her) at a distance SHE is comfortable with and start there.
> 
> I would absolutely NOT be spraying her with water or using any other sort of punishment for the behaviour. She's frightened, punishing her for reacting when frightened isn't going to do anything to make her less frightened and is more than likely going to make her even more worried as she'll associate the punishment with the other dog or person appearing. She needs to know that you will protect her, not that you will punish her for her fear. I'd be trying to stay at a distance where she doesn't feel the need to react (easier said than done I know) and if you do find yourself in a situation where she's over threshold and reacting then just get out of it ASAP. When she's reacting she's not going to learn anything so it's a case of just minimising the reaction by getting out of there as soon as you possibly can.
> 
> Watch me can be an excellent thing for some dogs. For others being asked to not look at what is worrying them can actually make them more worried. If I blocked Ruperts view of another dog, whether by asking for a watch me or by physically blocking him, he panicked massively. There's also the Look at That game which teaches the dog to look at the trigger and look back to you for a reward. Again, works with some dogs and not others. *Another option is to teach her to hide behind you while you see off the invading dog or person.*


I agree with Sarah's post entirely. The part in bold I use with my own dogs. I won't bore you with my eldest dog's history but he can be afraid and sometimes reactive to dogs or a few people who come at us head on.

The idea with "Hide" is to teach a dog to step behind you and let you deal with the oncoming trigger. It has several advantages - you can body block oncoming dogs, your dog cannot see the trigger and any posturing etc and cannot posture in return.

I start by teaching hide statically. It is an advantage if your dog is clicker trained or you have a marker word but it can be done without.

1. Stand facing your dog.
2. Let him know you have some tasty titbit and lure him round behind you. Bring your other hand round behind you at the same time so the dog doesn't become confused.
3. When you feel him nuzzling for the food and he is behind your legs click or use your word and release the food. If you have a large dog like I have I bring my leg on the same side of the dog forward by a step to allow him to come comfortably into position. Then step forward with the other one.
4. Repeat the above a few times.
5. Once you are sure that your dog knows what the hand signals mean I introduce the command word. I use "Hide" but in retrospect something a little less barmy sounding as someone approaches you might be better!!!
6. Once your dog has mastered the hide from one position I then turn to face the dog as soon as one rep has been done and do it again - keep turning and turning about if that makes sense?
7. Once you are sure that "Hide" is solid statically I then start to add a sit in and a down still behind me and take it on the move, walking with the dog still in behind me - this is where hand targetting is a good thing. 
8. I do each step in the garden and then gradually start to practise them on walks.

Does that make any sense whatsoever? I will try and get a video of me doing it if I can at some point today or tomorrow if needed.

ETA: Use a stick or some sort of marker in the garden and practise approaching it from all sorts of directions then turning so for example you approach with the marker on your right hand side and dog heeling on the left so the dog goes to the left for "Hide". Then turn and come the other way so practise your dog heeling on your right and stepping in behind from the right - the idea being that you always put the dog on the furthest side from the trigger. It's useful to practise changing sides until that seems smooth.


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## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

Dogless - yes it makes sense, and a video would be really useful. I appreciate the time you've taken to reply - Thank you.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

CMLW2013 said:


> Dogless - yes it makes sense, and a video would be really useful. I appreciate the time you've taken to reply - Thank you.


The dogs are sparked out after spending pretty much all day in the forest so when the eldest beastie stirs I will see what I can do (or tomorrow).


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

CMLW2013 said:


> Thank you for your advice. I believe I've seen a large-ish group of dogs being walked on the park behind my house... I may be able to ask the walkers if I could tag along, although the dogs are always off-lead and I'm not sure how I - or Sammie - would deal with that?!
> 
> We have tried to distract her with food treats around other dogs but a) most of the time she isn't interested, and b) we were 'admonished' for doing this by a vet who quite rightly pointed out that Sammie would see these treats as a reward for the growling (based on our timing of actually giving the treats)... once again an example of our inexperience :closedeyes:


No your vet is wrong. Food is seen as a positive experience for most dogs, so if they smell the scent of the food around other dogs, they will start making positive associations with other dogs.
I don't think throwing her in with other dogs is going to work with her, she sounds way more stressed than my golden ever was. I know Victoria Stilwell on TV did a good method with dogs where she used dogs on a television screen to start the process of positive associations with dogs using treats. And when I say treats, I mean really tasty smelly varieties. When the dog looks at the ones on the screen, she says 'dog' and treats.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

CMLW2013 said:


> Blimey...
> 
> *So much to think about. So many options and possibilities and suggestions. So many 'right' ways and so many 'wrong' ways - I would never have intentionally taken on a dog who needs helps like this. It just feels like whatever we try, someone will tell us 'that's wrong it won't work' or 'don't do it like that, do it like this'...* I thank you all immensely for the advice you've already given, and on 'paper' it all makes good sense... but the prospect of trying to put it into practice leaves me feeling bewildered and not knowing what to do for the best.
> 
> Sarah, I'm in North Wales (Wrexham)... Know anyone who wants to take on a troubled Border Collie..? (only half-joking).


You "just"  need to find the best method for you and your dog. It will probably take trial and error but what I try to do is choose a method that will do no harm even if it doesn't work for you.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

CMLW2013 said:


> This is EXACTLY what we think was happening with Sammie when we first saw her in the rescue. And, seeing as they had only had her for two days, they had not made the time to properly assess her and realise for themselves that, actually, she was NOT comfortable around other dogs!


Roxy was assessed as being a 'bit reactive' towards other dogs when she first went in to the rescue centre but (I think) she then shut down so they thought she had gotten over it (now I fail to see how they reached that conclusion!)

She has been hard work but I have been lucky in that I have had alot of support (although there were still many days when I would end up crying as I felt so useless )

I too would never have taken on a dog like this had I known. In fact when I look at my posts on this forum regarding what I wanted in my second dog I can't help but laugh at the dream compared to the reality!  

It's funny as although Roxy was a nightmare at first (people, other animals as well as dogs) but has always been a 'model passenger' - I hadn't thought about it until now, I wonder of that was also due to shutting down & her getting nervous about leaving the safety of her home 

At first, it seemed as though one problem would start become more controllable & then another would appear (apprently this is quite normal), she also went through a period of snapping at people (which was so worrying) & was muzzled when out as I could not take the risk of her harming someone.

She has been a handful for me (I am a completely inexperienced dog owner) but have learnt alot through her (& got alot wrong!) but she has improved alot & we now attend obedience/agility classes & are going on our first dog holiday in Sept.

There are lots of useful books that may help but I honestly believe that finding a good trainer who can look at you, your body language & help build your confidence is so helpful.

A couple of great books I have read are: 'Feisty Fido: Help for the Leash-Reactive Dog' & 'The Cautious Canine' both my Patricia McConnell


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## evuze (Jun 12, 2013)

Just thought I'd mention because it might help...

If you search for "it's me or the dog" on YouTube, there's a full season on there and I've seen Victoria deal with this kind of issue. Maybe you could use her techniques as it seemed to work for all her cases.

Also, if he's not interested in food, find some food he's really interested in, the really smelly tasty type 

best of luck and well done for not giving up.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Is she interested in food when she is in the house and not stressed? If she isn't then I would try different types of food until you hit on something she likes and if not then you need to find something else to reward her (toys/sniffing/removing her from the scary thing). If she likes food in the house but isn't taking it outside then that would suggest that she is far, far too stressed - in this case she isn't going to be able to learn anything and you need to remove her from the situation.

Sarah1983 and Dogless have given you some good advice but you need to remember that your dog has had 3 years to practice this behaviour - she doesn't know any other way to act. This is most likely going to take a long time to fix and the first thing you need to fix is your relationship with her. She needs to trust that you will listen to her and take her away from the thing that is scaring her so much - not punish her for her coping strategy.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Welcome to the doghouse!! We too ended up with a dog who was not what we expected. It is a great shock when what you might have been expecting is a grateful loyal companion.

We gave Jackson two weeks off seeing dogs, or people, even walking up the road because this put him into hyper mode.
In those two weeks we played with him indoors and in the garden (v. small) when neighbours were out because even a door slamming next door was too much stimulation.
We started practising Dr Karen Overalls relaxation protocol
http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/OverallRelaxationProtocol.pdf
It looks complicated but it isn't. We also used TTouch and slow massage - the one thing that relaxes Jackson is slow massage on the back of his neck but every dog is different.
As your dog travels okay I would take him to really dog free walking areas to start with so you can practice whichever ideas suggested that appeal to you. 
A very good easy read to help you understand the jargon and help you understand your boy is "Scaredy Dog" understanding and rehabilitating your reactive dog. It's by Ali Brown. It's not too long or complicated, I got it on my Kindle.
We had 2 years of inappropriate behaviour to sort out and after over a year with us Jackson is still a "work in progress". Like you and yours we love him to bits. 
I would definitely seek the help of a professional if you can. Having said that if they suggest something that your gut says is not right for your dog do question or go elsewhere. I accepted the advice of an excellent trainer ( positive rewards and ideal for our previous dog) thinking what she was suggesting was not appropriate but believing she had more experience than me which she certainly has. It was a disaster.
Jackson would pass for a "normal" badly behaved dog now!! 
I also try and keep a diary because you forget the strides you will be making.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Bagrat said:


> I also try and keep a diary because you forget the strides you will be making.


This. A thousand times this! I honestly think this has been the best advice anyone has ever given me. Sounds stupid really keeping a diary of your dogs behaviour but sometimes progress can be so slow and in such small increments that you don't actually see it happening until you look back over a few weeks or months. It's also very helpful for figuring out what works, what isn't working, whether you need to give something a bit more time or tweak something slightly etc. It doesn't have to be a long, wordy novel, just a brief description of what happened each day and how you and your dog reacted.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Firstly, I think you are fabulous for trying so hard to make Sammy overcome her various issues!

Secondly, many of us have been there. Really. When we tried so hard and our dog doesn't seem to make any progress. in fact, it seems to get progressively worse! An exasperating feeling where we start to doubt our suitability as owners, we doubt our dogs for EVER getting better and we are just worn out and demoralised. But take heart - it CAN and WILL get better!

Thirdly, and I don't say this lightly or flippantly.....your behaviourist/trainer is incompetent, deeply moronic and should go back to school. Aversives can have their place when used judiciously, but THAT is not the way to do it. How would spraying a dog with water help her overcome her dislike for other dogs???? She already doesn't care for them and/or is afraid of them, how would adding a punishment help her to overcome that and feel more benevolent towards them?

My advice, off the cuff, is to cease the water squirting immediately. If it is financially viable, interview some other behaviourists. Where are you located ? Perhaps someone could offer a personal recommendation.


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## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Aversives can have their place when used judiciously, but THAT is not the way to do it. How would spraying a dog with water help her overcome her dislike for other dogs????
> 
> If it is financially viable, interview some other behaviourists. Where are you located ? Perhaps someone could offer a personal recommendation.


Thank you again to all of you for taking the time to try and help us. I came here feeling completely bewildered and right at the end of my tether. I'm not saying I feel much better now, BUT, I don't feel like we're (husband and I) the only ones going through this kind of struggle.

There is a lot to get my head around. I need to study this thread again and remind myself what you've all advised, and then I need to devise some kind of action plan for us and Sammie. I'm going to nip out later and get myself a notebook which I'll use as our diary. Today will be a new start. Day one.

It isn't financially possible for us to enlist the help of another trainer at the moment. We had to save for two months for the last one we used, so it would be a while before we could go down the 'professional' route again.

Our recent trainer spent four hours with us - approximately one hour was spent asking questions about our daily routine, about Sammie's routine, and Sammie's behaviour in general. Another hour was spent explaining 'dog psychology' and 'pack mentality' to us... and then the remaining two hours was spent out on the streets and the park putting his methods into practice.

Regarding the squirt of water, we were told more than once that the water should be a strong spray directed at the face, and should last for 3-4 seconds...

... the water bottle has now been chucked in the bin - I wish I'd come here first 

I feel I should mention some of the positive things we've achieved with Sammie, on our own, without help from a trainer.

When we first adopted Sammie (believing she was dog-friendly), we did (and still do) have another dog. He's a terrier, called Bobby (and I feel I should add that Bobby is very well socialised and doesn't have any issues, apart from sometimes being over-friendly and over-eager to meet new people!). We decided, on bringing Sammie home, that we'd introduce them on neutral ground, so chose the local park to do this. Hah! Weren't we in for a shock!

Sammie reacted like she wanted to kill Bobby the moment she laid eyes on him. Barking, growling, lunging and snarling. She was NOT interested in meeting him up close AT ALL.

Rather than give up and return her to the rescue, as we could have done, we spent the next two months using two crates in our home. We made sure the dogs knew that their crates were nice places to be, and not a form of punishment. We then rotated the two dogs for an hour at a time, all day, every day - one in the crate, one out. We continued this for two months, until the dogs were very used to each other and were showing very clear signs that they wanted to play and be together.

It worked, because now Sammie and Bobby are the very best of friends - two peas in a pod. Where there's one, there'll always be the other not far behind.

We discovered very quickly that Sammie also did not like to be touched or have her personal space invaded. We would be stroking her on the head, and she would either growl or wet herself. Touching her back end or her back legs was completely out of the question, as was trying to cuddle her; she would growl and jump away from us - again, it took us a long time of patience and perseverance to help her overcome whatever issues she was having. She still has her moments, but we are now able to stroke her WHEREVER we want, we can cuddle her, and we can kiss her head. Only very occasionally will she grumble about it.

So we _have_ made some very positive progress with Sammie already. The only real bug-bear we still have is the issue of walking her safely and enjoyably...


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

The advise from Dogless is spot on, (pun intended)
I use a very similar method...

You have found a good place to come for help. You will find what works for you. Good Luck


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Some videos on youtube that might help. The first is about training the LAT (look at that) game. The other two links are kikopup and tab289 clicker training channels with lots of videos.

Clicker Training &#39;Look at That&#39; LAT Game -teaching dogs to focus and eye contact - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup

Dog training explained - YouTube


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

CMLW2013 said:


> I'm going to nip out later and get myself a notebook which I'll use as our diary. Today will be a new start. Day one.
> 
> It isn't financially possible for us to enlist the help of another trainer at the moment. We had to save for two months for the last one we used, so it would be a while before we could go down the 'professional' route again.
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity - do you ALWAYS walk the 2 dogs together ( as most multiple dog owners do, including myself).

Reason I am asking, Sammy's reason for disliking other dogs may have changed. She may not have cared for any of them in general, but is it possible that she now guards her canine BFF? If you think about it - we are considerably more generous in socially sharing our friends - in terms of introducing them to others - when we have lots of them, instead of only one or two.

As to trainers/behaviourists: EVERY good trainer will tell you that any behaviour modification is a process. We are creatures of habit and our dogs are, too. It takes a while to change a behavioural pattern.

EVERY good trainer will also ONLY ever resort to aversives as a last resort and if all reward based methods haven't worked. Personally, I like the suggestions of teaching "watch me!".Sammy can't focus on you AND the other dog simultaneously.

And, lastly, every decent trainer/behaviourist would reasess a client if their method isn't right for that dog, or the owner not comfortable with it. It is a matter of professional integrity and/or pride not to charge the client twice for it. I really don't know what to say about the water spray directed at her face. Surrepticiously spraying a die-hard lusty barker or dedicated chewer...or even to break up a dog fight ( even though you'd need a hose or a bucket, not a dainty spray) ...is one thing. But for lunging and dog-dog aggressiin I can't get my head round which behavioural principle this would adhere to. Hmm, weird.

The only thing I am a bit confused by is you saying that she lunges at other dogs. Have you already tried a Halti or Gentle Leader? Many years ago I had an unsociable lunger and walking him on a Halti transformed my life. Seriously. There is no way he COULD have lunged at another dog wearing it and I am thinking that since it prevented a 100 lbs. + dog from pulling and lunging, it will accomplish the same for a reactive Border Collie.

But as you said - today is a brand new day. With opportunities galore to improve things. That's the spirit ! Incidentally, have you ever tried one of the yahoogroups aimed at shy-aggressive dogs? Well worth researching them.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Hello CMLW2013 you have found a great place for advice.

You are not alone, lol, as you have seen, I and many others totally understand how you feel. I dont think anyone chooses to take on a dog with issues, unless perhaps they have already had one, you learn so much you might feel you can help others I guess.

I came here nearly a year ago with similar tales of using a water spray and was severely admonished 

There has been some improvement not necessarily noticeable to the outside world, but I can see it, but more importantly I think have learnt to cope and manage Ginge's stress.

The effect of 'taking a week or two off' & keeping the dog calm are also invaluable.
Reactive Champion: The Stress Bathtub

Keeping the dog calm might also seem boring, when we talk about stress I think a better term is arousal, so not just avoidance of nasty things but nice things too! So restrict arousing play, fetch, chase etc even grooming can arouse a dog. In the house as well as outside. If I play tug with ninja before we go for a walk she is sky high already so ultra reactive.

Its also worth looking at food, it wont work miracles but food can affect a dogs comfort levels, changing food can help enormously, certain foods include certain chemicals that help keep a dog relaxed eg tryptophan high in turkey amongst other things.

There are also many calmatives available, we use Nupafeed Stressless, Nupafeed Superior Supplements for Dogs as do several other members with great help. This is absolutely not a sedative which was important to me. I know if I forget a dose. However we started using Dorwest valerian and skull cap a month ago I think we are finally seeing results with although I fear the school holidays might be setting us back somewhat 

I can highly recommend Scaredy Dog by Ali Brown as well, I dont know if you have looked at canine body language as well as this is key I think to attempting any behaviour modification. You need to be able to read the dog to understand what they do or dont want, Turid Rugaas has two interesting books IMO/E. On talking terms with dogs: Calming Signals and Barking; The sound of a language.

Just some food for thought on things I have found helpful. It is a very daunting task but when you get results its amazing  http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/314735-breakthrough-little-encouragement-owners-problem-dogs.html


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Hi OP, 
Just popping my two-pennies-worth in here. 
I'm very sorry to hear that this rescue centre let you and the dog down so much in their eagerness to place the dog without really assessing her properly. Not good practice. 
I think you should be commended though for how hard you have worked with her. 
I'm also very sorry to hear of your encounter with the dog trainer who gave you inappropriate advice (using an aversive and pairing it with conflicted filled situations will worsen the way the dog feels). Unfortunately the dog training/behaviour industry is not standardized and this means that people can wake up one day and decide that they want to be a dog trainer, with no real knowledge, experience or anything really behind them. 
Unsuspecting pet owners pay lots of money for 'advice' which is essentially wool-fluff and that is not backed by animal behaviour science or even with any proper consideration for animal welfare. 
I'm glad you've ditched the water spray and had the presence of mind to know that this is not the way forward for your dog. Many people don't. You did good for Sammie.

I'll give you my initial thoughts re the difficulties you are having for what it's worth. 

With regards to how to classify her behaviour to other dogs; reactive/ aggressive. Either or. She is scared enough that she uses big displays to try to frighten off the things that scare her. Dogs feel this way and do this, will have a threshold for each level of reaction. They will have a threshold (usually a distance at which... upon seeing the dog/person), they will tense up, a threshold for their hackles going up, a growl threshold (maybe increased proximity, plus any eye contact given), a bark/lunge threshold etcetera. These same dogs will have a threshold at which, if their previous warnings are not heeded, they will snap. Then bite etc.

I think you are right to muzzle her. In doing so you are protecting her from any idiots and showing yourselves to be responsible and conscientious.

Make sure that she has been desensitized to the muzzle. By this I mean that she is comfortable wearing it and actually enjoys doing so because she knows it means good things happening. 
Many many dogs naturally are uncomfortable with things on or around their face. If you can take away this aspect and any additional stress this may put on her, this will help reduce her stress levels, even the slightest bit which will make her issues a bit easier to work with.

Tips here:
Teaching A Dog To Wear A Muzzle (Muzzle Training) - YouTube
Muzzle Training- focusing on calmness - clicker dog training - YouTube

Is she walked on a flat collar and lead or a harness?
I tend to recommend harnesses especially to people with reactive or aggressive dogs. 
Kikopup goes into lots of detail in this handout, so I'll save the typing and let you have a read of this. 
Is it harmful to attach a leash to your dog

Put simply when a dog pulls against it's neck on a flat collar (due to opposition reflex) aside from initial discomfort, higher concentrations of stress hormones are also released, which is certainly far from useful for reactive, aggressive (fearful dogs). 
Harnesses with both front (chest) and back attachments are best and provide good control (used with double ended lead attached to both points of attachment) and show reduced incidence of opposition reflex and related problems.

Example harnesses are the mekuti, kumfi, xtra dog, dog-games harness, t-touch harness. 
Changing little things like this that will reduce overall stress levels is going to be beneficial.

Where do you walk her? At what times?
In cases such as hers, our initial priorities are to start reducing her stress levels, so that she can get past being chronically stressed, start to enjoy walks and then, you can start to work on counter-conditioning her emotional response to other dogs/people and changing the way she feels, as much as is feasibly possible.

Could you walk her anywhere where it is less likely that you will come across other dogs/people? Or could you walk her at more anti-social times?
Are there any farmers fields or tennis courts you could take her to at anti-social times, to exercise her? Etc.

If you don't think you can guarantee walking her without coming into contact with triggers at threshold level every day then NOT walking her much for the moment is an option.

I know that might seem like a shock statement, but if the dog is being exposed to scary things every day, reacting (inevitable) and stressing out, it becomes a vicious circle in which her stress levels continue rising, she rehearses reacting to things and you guys continue to have stressful walks too. 
Not walking her doesn't mean she doesn't get exercise. 
Do you have a garden?
If so you can give her plenty of stimulation (including mental stimulation- which collies, a strong working breed, need). 
Ideas include scent games (hiding her dinner in the garden for her to find- you can make it difficult- stuff it into the bark of trees if you have one in your garden). Playing games like these cater to instinctive hard-wired behaviour patterns that all dogs find naturally rewarding (and endorphins releasing). If you can give her opportunities to invest in naturally rewarding games that increase her emotional bank balance (more good hormone release, whilst reducing stress elsewhere), you can start to increase her ability to learn which will be useful when start to work on counter conditioning and desensitization. 
Tracking on a harness and a long line is another (destressing) fun game
Some ideas here:
Treat tree

K9 Nose Work: Training For Sadie's ORT - YouTube
First Longer Track- Khuma - YouTube

Another thing worth mentioning is a word about border collies. 
I don't know how worky your dog is BUT it's always important to consider breed specific hard wired behaviours. If we can cater to instinctive behaviour rather than suppressing it, we make for a less stressed, more contented dog who copes better with the struggles of urban life.

To save myself more typing, Kay Laurence summarizes it perfectly in this article:
Sheepdog?

This video gives you an idea of a game you could play with your girl to cater to her need to control movement. She would be controlling a safe target in doing so, and ticking her "need to herd" box for the day or week. Collies that have suitable outlets for work are happier collies. 

Celebrating Urban Sheepdogs - YouTube
(More advanced stuff here)

Eventual aim, in the longterm (after lots of work around people elsewhere) could be to be able to get someone else to play sheepballs with her maybe?  
In addition to limiting her walks to quiet times/places for a while to let her stress levels recover, there would be a few initiatives I would be taking.

1. Take a portion of her dinner on walks to give to her as treats to reward good choices. 
2. Think about her thresholds. If she is growling or tensing up you are too close. Don't tell her "no". Dogs that growl are good dogs. Just move her away ASAP. Ideally you want to be aware of her thresholds and stay at a distance that she can cope with. Avoid people/dogs when needed by making large arcs around them, crossing the road or walking away in the opposite direction. 
3. Open bar/closed bar. when trigger appears sub threshold distance (when dog/person appears at a distance which Sammie can cope (and feel safe) with good things rain from the sky- feed, feed, feed. When the person goes out of vision, you stop feeding). 
A few bits of terminology here
4. Cut short walks if things are getting too much. 
5. The car idea is a nice one. But I would be fine tuning it a bit by lessening your expectations of her for the meantime. 
Take her to a quietish location (low density public place). Make sure you stop/park the car somewhere that ensures that people/dogs will not be passing close by your car so that she is subthreshold. If she is growling she is too close and she doesn't feel safe. 
Provided she is at a safe distance, let her take in her surroundings for a moment, then present her with something like a kong with a portion of her dinner in it and something yummy and easily accessible (not frustrating- natural yoghurt is a good one). Let her eat that. If she can eat it and calmly settle in the back of the car it's a success. If not, quieter places still first then build it up. Leave once she's finished (or you can do a tiny bit of open/closed bar if she is coping ok and you have treats then leave). Build up from there. 
In order to counter condition, the dog always needs to feel safe at each stage. That's the essential bit. 
5. Have a protocol for visitors. Have you got a safe space away from where the visitors will come into, that she can go to when the doorbell goes?
Placing a pack of high value chews (dried tripe is a good one) in an accessible place is a good idea, so that you can send her to her place when the doorbells and leave her with one of those to munch. Helps to the counter conditioning process. She feels safe away from the scary strangers AND gets a goodie whilst she hears them come in.
Turns a potentially high stressful situation into a more positive one for her.

Check out this link, which you should find has a wealth of useful info:
www.fearfuldogs.com

What is she fed on?
Has she had any health checks down to rule out any medical nasties that could be having any effect on her behaviour?

I hope that the above makes some kind of sense and might help a bit. 
All the best


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## CMLW2013 (Aug 7, 2013)

Afternoon all, I'm in a rush this afternoon but didn't want to just read and run. I quickly wanted to 'show my face' and let you know that every single one of your helpful comments and observations have been noted and I'll be studying this thread again in much more detail over this weekend.

To try and answer just a few of the questions I can remember off the top of my head:

Sammie and Bobby have always been walked together, although there has been a prolonged period when we tried walking them separately - Sammie's behaviour was no different being walked alone to being walked alongside Bobby.

Both dogs are fed on a dry diet (Chappie) twice a day (morning and night). Chappie dry was recommended to us by a ton of people, including two vets and, to be honest, our tight budget these days wouldn't really allow us to swap to anything more expensive...

We do have a garden, although it is tiny. It allows us to play ball games with the dogs outside, but is in no way ideal for stretching their legs!

We used to walk both dogs on harnesses, with Sammie muzzled. They both pulled on lead like a devil. However, since we had the trainer in, both dogs are now walked on a Gen-Con head collar, and Sammie isn't muzzled when wearing the head collar - since switching to the head collars, both dogs walk much more nicely and barely pull at all. We'd prefer to be able to continue muzzling Sammie, however we'd be very reluctant to have to put her back on a harness...

We usually walk our dogs around the local streets and lanes, occasionally crossing the local park if there aren't other dogs around. We walk them between 6.30am-7.00am, which seems to be the most anti-social time around here where we live.

I'm going to butt heads with my husband this weekend and see if we can come up with an area where we could walk the dogs without Sammie coming into contact with any triggers. As we're relatively new to the town, this might take a bit of investigative work... I'll let you know on that one!

As always, I thank you all again for your input. I honestly can't tell you how much your replies are appreciated x


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm pleased you're using a gencon, its a good headcollar. Just as a further thing are you using the all in one gencon? It should be able to fit over a muzzle, although I think muzzles make some dogs worse and the gencon alone should provide you with enough control on the dog providing its used correctly. You shouldn't jerk on the headcollar, if the dog lunges towards a trigger like another dog, I'd try turning and walking in the opposite direction to redirect. I'm not accusing you of using it incorrectly, I'm just reiterating how it should be used.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Just a thought on walking kit; everyone has their own personal favourites but I would be wary of using a headcollar with unlimited tightening possibility on a reactive dog just in case trigger = lunge = pain = even more wary of trigger = greater reactivity.

I have just started to use a bright yellow "I Need Space" vest for my eldest dog who is exceptionally jittery and anxious following a serious attack by another dog. Although it clearly doesn't prevent loose dogs from running up it did mean that an overenthusiastic small child was prevented from bombing up to us today. There is a rumour around that by putting one on your dog you are admitting liability should anything happen. The Scottish rep of Yellow Dog UK - Some Dogs Need Space has assured me that the legal aspect has been clarified and using a vest will not put you in a disadvantageous position legally.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

This is Kilo reluctantly pausing in our game of tug to model his vest for you in case it's an idea you're interested in. The scars on his neck are from an attack a few weeks ago.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Dogless said:


> This is Kilo reluctantly pausing in our game of tug to model his vest for you in case it's an idea you're interested in. The scars on his neck are from an attack a few weeks ago.


Damn George that's a nasty old bite the big lad received. I'd have gone ballistic. Hows he doing now????


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

springerpete said:


> Damn George that's a nasty old bite the big lad received. I'd have gone ballistic. Hows he doing now????


Yes, considering we're almost three weeks on and it's healing well. Got one on his shoulder the other side and a small one on one stifle too :mad5:. Honestly? He is fine in the forest as he has never had a bad experience there. Around home he is not doing well at all.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I really relate to your situation. I really hope the following may offer some consolation and also some hope 

When I rehomed Dex he'd only been at the rescue for 24 hours and had not been properly assessed. I was told he was 'fine' with dogs and people and as I was smitten, I adopted him that same day.

It soon transpired that Dex had NOT been socialised and was scared of so many things - anything that looked 'odd' to him. His default response was a violent lunge, barking, growling, and often going *beserk*.

The first six months were hellish. Walks were somewhat terrifying as Dex was 14 months and getting bigger. I could not manage him and tried several trainers and classes - I too was told to squirt water and yank the lead and I wasn't happy.

I was constantly in tears and would arrive home trembling. And I empathise with that 'trapped' feeling. However I adored him and could not even contemplate his not being with me.

Now for the good news!

I was advised on this forum and another one to train a 'watch me'. I paired this with a Dogmatic headcollar and double ended lead. It took a lot of work but to my amazemennt - it worked!

It took time, and a lot of work, but the 'watch me' really can help with a reactive dog.

A headcollar or front attaching harness can also be really useful. 

I use food rewards for pretty much everything with Dex - it works and if some folk want to call it 'bribery', so be it.

I too would advise against throwing Sammie in with a lot of dogs - she sounds really tense. With Dex I built up the stimulation gradually; I began with low key, local walks, quiet roads. After six months, we went to a busier high street. We took it slowly and you may have to also 

It will take time for Sammie to 'unlearn' her habits - but with patience and kindness things can improve


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Hi  I couldn't just read and leave.. I'm sorry to hear about your struggles, but please know, you have come to the right place for advice/hints&tips 

I had a similar problem, still working on it, towards other dogs. Alot of things you'll try and might not work.. i hope you find something that really suits you both.

I could go through all the things i've found useful on my journey, but you've already had wonderful advice from, probably more experienced/knowledgeable, members  

I just wanted to say good luck, there is always light at the end of the tunnel and the feeling you get once you achieve wanted behaviors is well worth the time and patience


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

Please go to a vet to rule out any medical reasons for the behaviour 

The vet will then (if nothing medical is found) give you a referral form for a qualified behaviourist in your area. The professional will assess your dog properly (something n Internet forum can't do) and support you with altering your dogs undesirable behaviours.

There is some good advice in the posts above, however 3 years of ingrained repeated behaviours really need one to one time with a professional. No one that has given advice so far has met you or your dog, so I'm afraid that, despite best intentions, you may not have a quick fix from the Internet.

It is likely your insurance will cover the behaviourists costs if referred by a vet


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Dogless said:


> I have just started to use a bright yellow "I Need Space" vest for my eldest dog who is exceptionally jittery and anxious following a serious attack by another dog. Although it clearly doesn't prevent loose dogs from running up it did mean that an overenthusiastic small child was prevented from bombing up to us today. There is a rumour around that by putting one on your dog you are admitting liability should anything happen. The Scottish rep of Yellow Dog UK - Some Dogs Need Space has assured me that the legal aspect has been clarified and using a vest will not put you in a disadvantageous position legally.


I think he looks exceptionally cute and fetching in his bright yellow vest.

But....I would also like to point out....unless I had seen your photo and read the background story, had I met a dog beforehand with a "I need space" vest on - it would have meant nothing to me. As I wouldn't have understood the meaning of it. Honestly? I would have thought the owner wanted to make some kind of humorous statement akin to "I need hugs".

Wouldn't it be better, and clearer, and, most importantly, safer for your boy and everybody else if the vest featured the unambiguous slogan "I bite when scared"? Or "Stay away please"?

Since that is a lot less confusing than "I need space".


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## Mollythedog (Nov 1, 2012)

I can empathise as Molly is reactive to other dogs, especially small ones. We feel she got worse lately and I just had a bad encounter on leash too close so bit frustrated. 
There are so many good advices here. I agree that positive reinforcement works much better with my Molly. I also hand-feed her during the walk so she focuses on me more than anything else. I give her a kibble when she looks at me, or when she sits by me waiting to cross a road etc When I feel she is getting anxious or stressed, I scatter her kibbles on the ground and do "find it" game. Sniffing is soothing for dogs. In emergency I even toss kibbles over her. Maybe 6 out of 10 times she'd be distracted by kibbles and stop herself from reacting. 
We practice Grisha Stewart's behaviour adjustment training. We swear by it and if we religiously practice we believe Molly is in much better place. Unfortunately you need other dogs help so we have not managed to do proper set up trainings. 
Official Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) site: humane help for aggression, frustration, and fear in dogs, horses, and other animals.
We just set our goals each day - Molly must "see" from a distance of her threshold at least 5 dogs a day. By doing this we are getting better response from her when she sees the trigger. She is learning the connection - trigger = look at us = she hears "yes" = run away from trigger = treats.

it is good to hear some success stories on this thread! Very encouraging  
Hope things will get better for you too!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I think he looks exceptionally cute and fetching in his bright yellow vest.
> 
> But....I would also like to point out....unless I had seen your photo and read the background story, had I met a dog beforehand with a "I need space" vest on - it would have meant nothing to me. As I wouldn't have understood the meaning of it. Honestly? I would have thought the owner wanted to make some kind of humorous statement akin to "I need hugs".
> 
> ...


So far those who have read it have let me know that they understood it. I do take on board your point that it might seem humorous and remember that should folk see it as an invitation to bring themselves and kids over. Hopefully not!

I don't think that Kilo is a risk for everyone and I would be afraid of the legal implications of anything like "I bite" or "stay away please". At least I know that the legal ramifications (or lack of) "I Need Space" have been clarified by yellowdog which gives me reassurance. I thought about "No Dogs" - not because he bites but because he currently tends to curl up into a crying ball when jumped on. I tell people approaching at speed to stop and explain why and if I am going anywhere crowded where I suspect that sticky fingered grabbing kids who have parents who have no control might be I use a headcollar or a muzzle to try and "scare" them into thinking twice and to protect Kilo and them.

I know that dogs can't read but was hoping their owners might read it and not let their dogs bomb over - not that they should be offlead by the road where he wears it, but they often are!

ETA: He doesn't wear it offlead either!


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