# Need bit of help with new kittens



## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Hi All,

Really sorry for such a long post. 

I have spent quite some time on the internet but not getting right information I need. 

On Thursday we went and bought 2 kittens a boy and a girl. They are not brother and sister. The lady had a few cats and she said 2 of her females gave birth 1 day apart. So even though my new kittens are not brother and sister, they have grown up together. 
The lady said they are just over 9 weeks old. We chose the Tom first a beautiful Ginger boy and was immedialy drawn to the tortoise shell female he was playing with. 

The Tom seemed adventurous and quite confident. 
All the way home he cried but she was silent. I joked maybe she was the laid back one. 
Once home the girl was full of life and SO confident... He was quite scared and hid behind couch etc. 
Went to vets the next day to get vaccines and they were not heavy enough for them. Vet said give it a couple of more weeks. 
She said they were very healthy and no reason to doubt lady when she said they were 9 weeks. Just maybe a bit small. They were I think 0.6kg each.
Vet said its fine.

Anyway the tom is gradually coming out of his shell but nothing like the female. She wants to be involved in EVERYTHING. It is like she has to always upstage him r be involved. Very cute 
She uses litter tray but he doesn't. We have 2 trays but as soon as we put anther down she finds reason to get in both of them lol. 
I am not sure if she putting off litter tray but I noticed he peeing on the floor. He made a lot of noise walked around then started to scratch floor. I put him in tray and he runs off and then did a pee on floor. Then straight away he walked in the card board box where litter tray is and did a pooh in the cardboard 'not the actual litter tray. It is like he is half litter trained??
He keeps messing on floor and don't know how to help him?
Is female kitten putting him off. Sometimes if he goes nearly litter tray she will run over and try and play fight. Not all the time though as she was asleep when he peed on floor today. 

Will he gradually become as confident as her with stuff? He getting better but still a bit timid? When we saw him in his own home he was full of life 
Also she is VERY agile, where as he tries to be but not as good at climbing or jumping on to where we sitting. Is that normal for a tom?We have a cat tree which she loves and she goes to the top yet he scared on lower level. 

They play fight all the time and also snuggle up to each other and they seem to get on well. 

Another thing he a little bit smaller than her. They both eat well Yet if he has had enough she then goes onto his food then goes back to hers?? or sometimes she will start eating his food while he still eating even though she has food left. 
Is this dominance or normal?

I have water out yet not seen them drink at all. I am hoping they do it when I am not around. 

Anyway sorry for such long post I just want to give them the best start i can. 
They both so cute...


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Hi  
I wonder if you two kittens are actually the same age as your little tom sounds a bit behind in his development. 
He may not like the feel of the litter you are using - is it the same one as he was used to where you got him from? Or it maybe that his 'sister' is putting him off. Be persistent in putting him on the tray and clean wherever he has been with either a branded product like Simple Solution or a bio washing detergent. 
Don't worry about them sharing food - they don't know one's hers and one's his  If they are having wet food don't be concerned about not drinking but make sure there is always water available. Cats do not tend to drink much which is okay when they are getting all they need from their food but if fed a dry diet it can lead to kidney and other urinary problems.
Your tom may become more bold as he gets older but 'Nortie Tortie' is a very well known expression among cat people and not without good reason :smilewinkgrin: - you may have a little Miss Mischief on your hands with her


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you very much for your reply.
As I type this the tortie is curled up asleep on my shoulder! She so cute! Tom is on other sofa asleep.

I have same feeling the tom may be a bityounger than her. He is a bit smaller and as you said he seems a bit behind in his stuff. The woman said they were a day apart. Of course she could be lying but makes me wonder why. Still if he was a bit younger would that possibly explain him not being quite as agile and the toilet stuff and being a bit less confident. 

The litter I have is a good quality clumping one it looks like white grit but not a cheap one. His owner looked like she was using maybe a cheap wood based one. So could it be that even though Tortie is fine with the litter he maybe does not like?

I am really scared about cleaning products as dont want to harm them . I am off to supermarket and pet store tomorrow. Not heard of the ones you suggested before. 

Do you think as the 2 kittens grew up together 'sort of' means they will always have a bond? Or does it not work that way with cats? Its lovely seeing them play. In past only had a single cat. 

Thanks again. 

PS> Naughty Tortie is what the vet said lol. I do love her as she seems different and very affectionate! I just hope she keeps that lol.


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

You could try providing more litter trays. The general rule is to start with one litter tray per cat plus one extra - so with two cats you really need to start with at least three trays. And place the trays in different places - not next to each other.

Do you know what type of litter they were used to? I recently had a kitten from rescue and the first night he urinated in a cardboard box rather than use his litter tray. I then remembered the rescue were just using sheets of newspaper in the trays instead of cat litter and so he had no idea what cat litter was for! It might be worth calling the woman you had the cats off to ask what she was using.

All cats have different personalities so your ginger tom may always be a bit quiet. I have a male and female kitten and the female is far bolder and more adventurous than the male. However, if your boy is less agile than your girl, it does sound as though he may be a bit younger - as Lynmorelynn has already suggested.

Don't forget that female cats can get pregnant at a _very_ young age - as little as 4 months old. If your kittens are 9 weeks old they will need neutering or separating very soon!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

You might find that it's the litter then. It may be a little hard under his paws. There are some good clumping ones that are corn based which you might like to try.
Simple Solution is safe for animals and good for cleaning up after accidents - most pet shops sell it.
I have sold kittens in pairs several times and they do tend to remain close - though I'm sure, like all siblings, they have their spats 
Good luck with your new fur babies - and pictures are an absolute must


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Hi and welcome 
Some great advice already. You could get some wood pellet litter and maybe try that in one of the trays and see if the male kitten uses it? Then you could gradually transition him onto the better litter.
It does sound like your naughty tortie is the boss right now, but that could change as they grow up a bit. It sounds like they get on very well so I wouldn't worry about their relationship.
I'd love to know their names and see a photo


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you both.
The vet said to get them Neutured in around a couple of months time. 
She nor the vet nurse she asked could tell there age. So I am thinking maybe the lady was not quite honest about there age as they are smaller. But again the vet said there is nothing wrong and they were fine to leave her. 

I will look into a different litter and will get a third tray. I just know as soon as it is down the female will be in there in seconds lol. 
That product you suggested, is that just for mopping up accidents? I also want to mop the laminate flooring daily with something safe. Some say bleach diluted is fine but I am not so sure. 

Our last cat was beautiful but after 17 years we had to put her to sleep last year due to cancer. I guess it has made me want to be so careful with the new guys as losing last kitty was hard. I just want them to be healthy. 

I am feeding them whiskers kitten food 'wet' doing around 4-5 small meals a day. I was thinking of in a couple of weeks weaning them onto Purina One Dried food. I know a lot say its rubbish, yet our last cat had it for years ' i thought it was a decent food but maybe i was wrong' Her coat always was so beautiful and she loved the food. Surely it is better than whiska dried food which our last cat would not touch lol. 

Anyway once again thank you for your help.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Will see if it lets me attach any pics. 
The Tortie is very dark and quite hard to show in some pics. 
The one of them sleeping was taken at vets. They played around a bit them both climbed onto scales lol.

She is called Kiteye and he is Archie.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

One more. Also if he is a bit younger. Will he learn from the female things?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

kash80 said:


> Thank you both.
> The vet said to get them Neutured in around a couple of months time.
> She nor the vet nurse she asked could tell there age. So I am thinking maybe the lady was not quite honest about there age as they are smaller. But again the vet said there is nothing wrong and they were fine to leave her.
> 
> ...


You can buy special pet safe detergents for cleaning the floor - I use a steam mop though :thumbup1:
There will always be a debate about wet and dry food and there will always be cats that do well on just dry but as I said, cats do not drink a lot and this can lead to problems. Also the majority of dry food has cereal as its main ingredient and this is something which cats do not need in their diets. Whiska's isn't a brilliant food - contains sugars among other things - and you would be better looking for a wet food with a higher meat content. Have a look at HiLife or Natures Menu - available in pet shops - or go online to Zooplus and look at their range of wet. It might seem more expensive but if you look at the price per kg you can work out whether it is or not. If you are feeding a better quality food they will eat less too - though you should feed kittens as much as they want and little and often as you are already doing :thumbup1: You could always look at raw feeding too :thumbup1:
They are little sweeties by the way and I love their names 
ETA - yes, he will learn from Kiteye


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Your cats are stunning :biggrin: 
I will look into the food you suggested. As you said there is always debate about which food is better. I only thought of Purina One as I knew my last cat did so well on it. However all cats are different I guess.

The name we choose took some time hehe. 

Thanks again for the advise.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Gorgeous wee babies :001_wub:
Thanks for the photos - I love Archie's spots.
When you do move them onto better food just do it gradually and perhaps wait until they are fully settled in, perhaps a couple of weeks time. You don't want upset tums


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you :biggrin: 
The Ginger is a beautiful colour a bit different from a lot of gingers I have seen. I am hoping he will keep that colour or will he get darker as he ages?

Just looking at foods now. Yea I will give them time to settle in for a while before I switch foods. 
Even though whiskers kitten food not the best, will they be ok on it for a couple of weeks? I am guessing it will give them enough protein and minerals etc.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Tortie has just eaten and went straight to litter tray and did a wee. Then went straight to second litter tray and did a pooh. Is that normal? Why not do it in first tray after a wee? It is like she wants both trays for her lol. I will get a 3rd tray tomorrow!


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Whiskas kitten food will be fine for now 

Aha Kiteye is a feline that likes one tray for wee and another for poop - very common! Just another thought - make sure the trays aren't placed right next to eachother - if you are going to have 3 or even 4 spread them around the house if possible.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi Kash, your kittens are very cute! They both look younger than 9 weeks to me. The tortie looks more like 6 or 7 weeks old to me. 

In your photo it appears the boy has blue eyes, which would usually mean he'd be less than 6 weeks old, as the blue eyes change after that into amber or green. An adult blue eyed ginger cat is very rare in most countries, though perhaps in the part of the world where you live they are not so rare.

I agree with the good advice the others have given^^. You need more litter trays, preferably 2 litter trays each, spread around your home. Especially important as your little boy has not yet been fully trained to use one. It is quite likely his female companion will 'teach' him what to do, cats are very good at copying from each other. 

Well done for starting them off on a wet food diet, it is so much better for them than dry food!:thumbup1: It would be a shame to spoil that good start by feeding them dry food  with all the potential risks to their kidney and bladder functions. 

You were lucky your last cat survived on dry food to a good age without any serious health issues. Perhaps she was an exceptionally good drinker (which most cats are not) and was able to keep herself properly hydrated, or if she went outdoors she may well have supplemented her diet by hunting. Anyway why take the risk with your two gorgeous little babies - feed them wet food to safeguard their health.

In the UK good wet foods in the stores for kittens are HiLife Natures Essentials, Natures Menu, Wainwrights pots. More choice of good quality foods on line from Zooplus or The Happy Kitty Company. Not sure whether you have access to those?


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks for the replies again. 

I knew when I saw them they were a bit small but she said 9 weeks 3 days lol. The Vet could not tell but said they could be small for there age. I did ask the vet if they were ok that we took them and she said yes.. I was a bit worried. 
The vet said they woudl liek i think its 0.1 of a kg per week of there life. They were 0.6kg i think. She said may be small or bit younger hence why we waiting couple of weeks for vaccines. 

I will never get to know there true age it seems. I am a bit concerned if Archie is in fact about 6 weeks, has he missed something important? I think 8 weeks meant to be minimum? Does it help he has a 'non blood sister' to teach him still? Will he be ok do you think? He is eating well, not as much as her but still.
Also I kept putting him in litter tray for him to run away. Then 2 mins later he went in and did something .
Kiteye then went and kept tapping him with her paw as he was having a pooh lol. 
I am very glad he at least used it once. 

Interesting what you said about the blue eyes. I mean the blue is GORGEOUS on him. I knew it would probably fade. Yet surly the vet would have thought he about 6 weeks by his eyes?
I am from UK so don't see many gingers with blue eyes. 

I am still looking into the food thing. Yea last cat did well on dried. Yet dont vets try and sell dried food all the time? Will do more research!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I bred siamese and orientals for 20 years. My expectation for their weight was 1lb (about 450grams) per month or about 1kg at 9 weeks. Some would be a little less but many of them would be heavier especially the boys.

If your little boy is younger than you were told, he could be one who is still making mistakes with the litter tray. (There is often one!) If he does it on the floor again, perhaps you should treat him as though you are training him. Wipe up the wee with kitchen towel and put it in the tray. Don't keep the tray too clean until he is fully trained. Kittens learn to use the tray because it smells more than surrounding areas so make sure no smell remains on the floor. You should really keep to the type of litter he has been used to until he has completely setted in his new home and then only gradually add some of the new litter to the original one to avoid any confusion. If you find he prefers to wee in a different place cover his favoured spot with a litter tray and when he stops making mistakes gradually (a few inches at a time) move the tray to your preferred location.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

kash80 said:


> I knew when I saw them they were a bit small but she said 9 weeks 3 days lol.


I think the breeder was telling you porkie-pies about their age I expect she just wanted to be rid of the kittens a.s.a.p, as they were costing her money to feed them.

Your vet should most certainly know about kittens being born with blue eyes and the colour changing by the time they are 6-7 weeks old. It is common knowledge amongst anyone who knows much about kittens. (Perhaps your vet is a dog person!)

In the UK you are highly unlikely to see an adult ginger cat with blue eyes - they are as rare as hens' teeth!! :frown2: Siamese cats keep their blue eyes into adulthood, and as I recall a couple of other pedigree breeds. But not moggies.

So you can say for sure the boy is only 6-7 weeks, and you are right, he SHOULD have stayed with his mum until at least 8 weeks, preferably a bit longer, as mum does quite a lot of socialising of her kits from 6 weeks to 8 weeks. Also, he would no doubt have learnt to use the litter tray if he'd stayed longer.

Hopefully he will soon catch up, and he has his companion (your girl) to learn from. But you will need to be his surrogate mum for a while, e.g. gently and patiently teaching him how to play without biting and scratching.



> Also I kept putting him in litter tray for him to run away. Then 2 mins later he went in and did something . Kiteye then went and kept tapping him with her paw as he was having a pooh lol.


Sounds as though he is getting the idea of using the tray.  Don't allow Kiteye to bother him when he is using the tray as it may start to put him off. (Just quietly lift her out of the way). Most cats & kittens like privacy when they are using the toilet.



> I am still looking into the food thing. Yea last cat did well on dried. Yet dont vets try and sell dried food all the time? Will do more research!


Yes, you're right vets try and sell dry food all the time! Most vets are not trained in pet nutrition, it is not part of their undergraduate course. The exceptions are those vets who have done a post-grad course in pet nutrition (as one of the vets at my vet practice has done) or they have done a lot of their own research (like one of the vets on this forum). When they have that knowledge they all recommend a wet food diet (or a raw food diet) as do the veterinary experts who write about feline nutrition.

Sales reps visit veterinary surgeries regularly and give them the marketing spiel about dry food being "good" for cats and unfortunately lots of vets believe it! 

Please have a look at these links from veterinarians writing about feline diet:

Why Cats Need Canned Food | Little Big Cat

Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health

And if you want an excellent book on the subject, buy a copy of the well-known highly reputable veterinarian Elizabeth M. Hodgkins' book "Your Cat", the 'cat bible' on good feline care.

Your Cat: Simple New Secrets to a Longer, Stronger Life: Amazon.co.uk: Elizabeth M. Hodgkins: 9780312358020: Books


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Quite a few cats are attracted by a faint smell of bleach so stick to normal floor cleaner. Steam mops are all very well but if it's a wood or laminate floor I'd be wary about adverse results from long term use.

Only change their food gradually as you don't want tummy upsets.

They can and should be wormed now and again in a few weeks and are old enough & heavy enough for milbemax kitten (1/2 at present) which isn't cheap but is much easier than panacur.

Hope you checked for fleas!

As for neutering its more important to get her neutered in the short term.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Also while toilet training is iffy don't give them too much freedom in the house. It can be worth confining them to a large dog crate while you are out with a bed, a tray, water and maybe food.


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

In my experience some vets can be pretty hopeless at working out the age of kittens. 

I asked two different vets in my local practice to try to estimate the age of my first kitten. Both of them squirmed and admitted they were hopeless at estimating kitten ages and this is a vet practice that cares for all the cats for our local Cat's Protection branch!

One of them estimated my kitten to be 16 weeks. I now know she was actually about 9 weeks!

Your kittens are beautiful and have clearly found a very loving home. 
I hope you have many happy years together


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you all for the help you have offered. 

I feel pretty bad that I have taken some kittens away from there mum so early. Yet if the vet who see's cats ALL the time could not tell me there age how would I know? I just thought maybe they were just a bit smaller but would soon grow. 
It is sad that the lady lied but nothing I can do about that. 

They have a great home with us and they are full of life when they are not sleeping :biggrin: They play with each other so much. 

Will Archie learn from the tortie about how hard to bite etc? It is very rare for either of them to make any noise when they play fighting. Actually its more like wrestling lol. sometimes it looks quite rough but they seem happy. 

All our visitors love Archie the best. I think it is because he is a striking ginger kitty! Yet for me Kiteye has such a great personality. She has to get involved with everything and is so affectionate. 

I am very pleased to say Archie seems to be using the litter tray more often on his own now. Maybe it was because I kept putting him in it a few times like someone suggested. 
Also I have noticed last 2 days he seems to want to eat more. His apetite has increased. 

Any idea what cold be the result of him leaving his mum so early? Anything lasting? We will be patient with him. He does bite a bit at times but not all the time. How can we stop this? His confidence is growing each day and he is a bit more agile past couple of days. 

Thanks again for all the help. Will read those links later.

PS. they were scratching a bit when they came home even tho lady claims she used front line. 
Vet gave them a wormer and flea treatment in one as a spot on. Forget what it w but she said its safe for young kittens.
By the way. Vet says front line is not very good anymore. We used to use it for our old cat. Is it true that its not a great product anymore?


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Aw don't worry, you are doing great with the two babies. It's not your fault if they are too young, what matters is what you do now which is fine 
Feed them as much as they want right now, lots of play and cuddles and when they want space let them have it 
All is well, kittens can be a real worry and stressful at times but go with the flow and you will all be just fine xx


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks 
They are so beautiful and still growing in personalities as well as growth. 
It can be a bit stressful and hard to not over think things.

Archie is doing very well and been going into litter tray on his own  I stop her as she goes to annoy him now. 
Both of them not so great at the burying of there mess. It is like they make a feble effort in the wrong area to kick a bit of cat litter then walk off lol. The never actually cover the pooh etc. 
That said I am just thrilled they both using the tray!!


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## m1xc2 (Mar 19, 2015)

kash80 said:


> Both of them not so great at the burying of there mess. It is like they make a feble effort in the wrong area to kick a bit of cat litter then walk off lol. The never actually cover the pooh etc.


You should be grateful - Lily likes to divide her poo into four separate pieces and hide each one deep down in different parts of the litterbox!


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

lizbsn said:


> You should be grateful - Lily likes to divide her poo into four separate pieces and hide each one deep down in different parts of the litterbox!


lol 

Beautiful cats you have!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Kash, not all cats bury their business, it is very much an individual thing and may depend partly on what their mum taught them to do. But sometimes with siblings in the same litter you can get some who bury and some who don't.

Torties are known for having oodles of personality. One of our family cats during my childhood was a tortie, and she was a really amazing cat, full of character, funny, & highly intelligent. She made a big impression on me and I have never forgotten her.

Like many people I also have a soft spot for ginger cats. I have a semi long-haired ginger cat myself, and he is very special. 

So I think you have done well to have two such gorgeous kitties.

No, it's not your fault you were hoodwinked by the breeder, as sadly too many moggie 'breeders' behave irresponsibly towards their kittens. We never allow kittens from the Shelter to be adopted until 8 or 9 weeks old, and in some cases 10 weeks if they are behind in their development.

There should be no lasting damage to Archie and Kiteye from leaving their mums a few weeks before they should have. Luckily they have each other for companionship and moral support; it'd be much worse if you'd only got one kitten on their own at too young an age.

Archie and Kiteye will learn from each other not to bite. But it is a good idea to have a couple of Kong Kickeroos you can immediately substitute for your hand if either kitty is getting a bit rough in their play with you. Rather than give the Kickeroos all the time, save them for times when you really need them, so they retain their charm for the kitties.

Kong Kickeroo Pattern 3: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

You can get smaller sizes for kittens, but mine never liked the small ones much.

Rod toys such as Flying Frenzy are excellent too, as they keep your hand at a safe distance from a kitty's claws.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you again for the nice post. I appreciate all the help I have been offered. Even though we had a cat for many years, it was so long ago that we got to experience the kitten stage. 
Also having 2 kittens this time is amazing. We love seeing them play with each other. So glad we opted for 2, especially with them being under age after all. 

Archie is growing in confidence each day! You can see the difference and he is even more agile!! Not to Kiteye standard which she prob loves to show off lol. Still they love the Cat tree we got them. They climb up a lot and he is getting braver! 

He seems to want more attention that he previously wanted. I am guessing that is a good thing? He seems to want to be near one of us more. Where as before he would try to keep away a bit. 
He is doing really well with the litter tray also. 
It is amazing how much can change in a day or so with kittens. 

By the way Archie's eyes are losing the blue. I noticed it today. Still a bit blue but it is fading. 

Thanks again for all your help


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Losing the blue is quuite normal. All kitten eyes are blue when they're born, then they start to change to the adult colour.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

kash80 said:


> Thank you again for the nice post. I appreciate all the help I have been offered. Even though we had a cat for many years, it was so long ago that we got to experience the kitten stage.
> Also having 2 kittens this time is amazing. We love seeing them play with each other. So glad we opted for 2, especially with them being under age after all.
> 
> Archie is growing in confidence each day! You can see the difference and he is even more agile!! Not to Kiteye standard which she prob loves to show off lol. Still they love the Cat tree we got them. They climb up a lot and he is getting braver!
> ...


Kittens change from day to day, including growing! Please keep us posted on how they get on, sounds like all is good x


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

They are beautiful - I love those flecky tortoiseshells. It's my favourite cat colour. Ginger is my second favourite (we have two ginger boys at the moment)


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Hi all,
I am a little concenred. The past couple of days Kiteye has been a bit more quiet. She does still play but just a bit more quiet than she has been. May sound silly but she sometimes looks a bit sad or something 
Archie has really grown in confidence but maybe a bit much for her?
He is being VERY rough with her 'to me it seems rough.' For example last night she was trying to sleep and he went over to her and started biting her a lot. I was expecting her to put him in his place but she wasn't. He would not leave her alone and I was a bit concerned as she was SO passive. I was going to seperate them but thought they will learn?
Today he is being rough with her, she putting up a bit more of a fight but she is sometimes making a high pitched noise sometimes when he bites her. 
Can she look after herself even tho she seems a bit more passive at the moment? She has been the bossy one till a couple of days ago. 
Before she wanted to be involved with everything!! Now she seems to stay back a bit. 
Is Archie becoming a bit of a bully or is this VERY normal kitten behavoir? I am trying to remember they younger than we think. 

Another thing. I fed them this morning and food bowls were a bit apart. She went to her bowl and started to eat. He came along and even tho he could see the other bowl he shoved her away. She grabbed a bit of food and ate it on the floor. I was suproised as she used to be the one that would stop him stealing her food. 
Then she went back and he would not let her near his food. 
I picked her up and took her to the other bowl. 
Am I over thinking all of this? Will she start to put him in his place again sometime soon? I dont want him to hurt her. 
Just seems a bit like there role reversed last couple of days. 

This said, Archie really is coming to life. He is the first one to come and say hello if you enter the room. She now hangs back a bit. Used to be her that was the first to say hello. 

Do you think they are ok?

I hope you guys don't mind all the questions. 

Btw. Archie really enjoying his food now. I am feeding little and often but do want to make sure they get enough.

Small update. Just fed them again. Put there bowls about a meter apart and each one was eating there food. Archie has a bit left on his plate but goes up to kiteye's. He then makes some sort of growling noise it sounded like. And when to swipe Kiteye with his paw a few times. Guessing to stop her eating. 
Why is she not sticking up for herself anymore? Maybe this is normal but it sees Archie is getting bit big for his little boots past couple of days with her lol. 
Do I ignore it all and trust that they will sort it out? I don't want her to lose her beautiful outgoing personality. Just seems strange that she now backs down where as she used to be bossy! 

Thanks for any more help.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

lostbear said:


> They are beautiful - I love those flecky tortoiseshells. It's my favourite cat colour. Ginger is my second favourite (we have two ginger boys at the moment)


Thank you 
Archie is striking but I love Kiteye to bits. She is a dark Tortie where as some I have seen are lighter. She is quite hard to show in pics lol.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm sure it's fairly normal behaviour as they sort out the hierarchy now both have settled in.
Remember Archie was the confident one in their previous home? I think perhaps when you first got them Kiteye was taking advantage of Archie's initial shyness and got her time to shine so to speak. Now after a few days things have returned to 'normal' perhaps?
Regarding the biting and squealing this is perfectly normal. They are both so young they need to learn what is acceptable play and what isn't. If you feel that Kiteye is being hurt by Archie you could try distracting him with a toy.
With regards to the food - I wouldn't worry too much unless you think Kiteye is not getting enough. In my house Sam scoffs his food really fast, goes over to Dex and eats his. Dex allows this and just lets him, but both cats are good weights.
Try not to worry too much and enjoy them. Remember it's still very early days and they are both so little xx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi again Kash, I daresay some may disagree with me but I have never fed any of my cats alongside each other, not even as kittens. I've found the cats or kittens are happier if fed either on opposite sides of the room, or at different heights, e.g. one on the floor and one on a table, or shelf. That way they seem more respectful of each other's boundaries, and don't push in and take food from each other. 

I agree with Moggie14, try and distract Archie if he starts biting Kiteye and making her squeal. He is too young to be exhibiting sexual behaviour towards Kiteye, so it sounds more like straightforward dominance, perhaps because he is physically bigger than Kiteye. 

Usually at their age kittens do sort things out between themselves fine, but I wouldn't want Kiteye to feel she had to give way to Archie all the time, or lose any of her exuberant self-confidence. So if there are times you aren't able to distract Archie (with a toy) from being too rough with her, I don't think it'd do any harm to redress the balance a bit, by calmly lifting one kitty out of the fray, then feeding both of them treats as a pleasant distraction.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Hi.,
Thank you both for the reply. 

You could be spot on what you said about Archie seeming the confident one in his original home. 
That was something that made him appealing. I guess when he went so quiet and she was full of life, we just forgot about that. 

I do want to think that Kiteye is able to defend herself, or put him in his place. We have all noticed she is a it more reserved past couple of days. Maybe it is not connected at all. 
Yet it is the past couple of days he seems to be bossy. 
As said she used to be bossy one. I loved that Kiteye wanted to be involved in everything Archie was doing. now it seems the roles have reversed! lol 

I will keep an eye on the play fighting. When she squeals, isnt that meant to teach archie that he bitting too hard? I know that is meant to be the case with puppies. So why does he not stop?

I was just bit worried may be aggressive to her from now on, and she would be not so happy. 
I loved the bond they had. I am sure they still do. Just seems a bit scary seeing him hurt hurt. 
Anyway probably over thinking again lol. We do love having them!!

Will try to feed them in different area's.

Thanks again for all the help. 

BTW. Physically he is still a bit smaller than her


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If these babies really are as young as we suspect, this is all part of the rough amd tumble of normal kittens. A litter of eight can be shocking with their fighting and rough play. (I don't know how many other kittens they were living with in their previous home.) This is how they learn their boundaries, although you need to replace the missing mother as final arbiter.

I see nothing wrong with giving them separate bowls of food since that is what you want to do when they are older but there again, you have to remember they have probably had a large plate to share with food always available. That is always how I fed my kittens. Separate bowls when they are tiny would be totally impractical. 

I think your little girl probably has the strength of character to hold her own in this situation but you need to make sure you give her plenty of indidvidual attention to ensure she does not withdraw into herself.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

> Physically he is still a bit smaller than her


Oops!  I thought I'd seen your photo of them together and she looked smaller than him! But I must be mistaken!

Tbh, I don't think you are "over thinking" things. Much of good kitty care when you first get kittens is based upon being able to be in tune with them and sensitive to their needs, and it sounds as though that is what you are doing, in your role as their surrogate mum. 

I have adopted quite a few kittens over the years, and I would always intervene if I felt one kitty was continually being treated more roughly by the other kitty. Because it is easy for such behaviour to become a habit, even with kitties as young as yours. I am not talking about equal rough and 
tumble play, but persistent roughness from one kitty to the other, to such an extent one kitty appears subdued by it.

However, there is just a slight possibility that Kiteye's sudden subdued air might be due to her not feeling quite well. Though if she's eating OK and peeing and pooing normally, then I wouldn't worry.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

I will keep an eye on Kiteye. 
So if the play looks mutal then I leave them too it. What about if she trying to sleep and he wont leave her alone? I want her to fight her own battles if poss.
I don't want her to become scarred or anything though. So would there mother step in when the fighting was a bit too much?

It is just knowing when to step in and when it is ok to leave them too it. The squeak she sometimes make sounds worrying. Yet I read somewhere it probably sounds worse than it is lol. 
All this said they can also be a lot of fun to watch. A lot of the time it does seem mutual play. 

Yea Archie is a bit smaller than her  Maybe the pic made him look a bit bigger though hehe


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Sam bites Dexter on his back legs, tail and spine - they are adult cats and Dex doesn't get hurt  Just keep an eye on them to make sure there is no broken skin or injuries, I'm sure Kiteye will be fine


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

The squeal is intended to be a warning and the offending kitten gradually learns when to stop but yes, mum does step in sometimes. Being a cynic, I would say it is usually when they are fighting too close to her! However you can intervene when/if you are concerned that he might really hurt her.

I expect Archie has simply regained his previous confidence. Kiteye took advantage of the fact that he was nervous in his new home to be more dominant but I expect she will be the boss in the end. The girls usually are.

If you are concerned that he is taking Kiteye's food and she is not having enough then you have to give them more food. Very young kittens eat unbelievable amounts of food because they are so active and growing rapidly.

They sound lovely kittens to me and it makes me quite nostalgic for all my years of breeding. I love this age when their personalities are beginning to form. Usually the boys get over their obnoxious behaviour (a bit like humans!)


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

I tend to place my two kittens' food bowls a little distance apart and I provide one extra bowl - so for two kittens, there are three bowls in different places. They do swap bowls whilst eating and my younger kitten does not like sharing a bowl - like yours she will grab food and eat it off the floor if the older one starts eating out of her bowl. If this happens I just move her on to the spare bowl.

They also play-fight very roughly. And the smaller one does sometimes squeak a bit. But no one ever gets injured and when the squealer is released she immediately throws herself straight back into the battle! So although it all looks and sounds a bit brutal - even to the point where I can't bear to watch sometimes - it is all just play. As long as your kittens aren't getting injured and both seem to be enjoying the fight and your girl isn't constantly trying to get away or looking distressed - I wouldn't worry.

My older kitten does have more energy than the younger one and sometimes wants to play when the smaller one has had enough and wants to sleep. I think this is the time to intervene and play individually with the livelier kitten.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you all for your help. 

They seem to have settled in very well. Yea Archie can be a bit bossy but she seems ok. 
Speaking of Archie. His name has been changed to Wesker lol. I liked Archie but hey ho sometimes you have to concede. 

They are getting micro chipped tomorrow. A local shelter has an offer on of £5 per cat. That is awesome as vets want to charge me £26.50 each cat! 
Not being a scrouge as I love the kittens but that is a big saving! 

Here are a few more pics. I can tell they have grown especially Kiteye. Now she is a very unusual looking cat. Yet there is something about her and even tho Wesker is stunning and very cute, I cannot but help be drawn to her. 
That said he seems more affectionate. She really can be but really does seem on her terms! She does not seem to want to sit on your lap, if anything she wants to be as close to your face as poss lol.

In the pics they may look a bit bigger than they are. Stretching etc lol. 
We been thinking it is poss that they could be half brother and sister. The woman had 2 seperate litters. We saw Weskers mum and dad. The dad was a beautiful fluffy ginger. Mum standard ginger. 
Now Kiteye seems to have bits of ginger in her. Also her back paw is kinda ginger 'ish' lol. So now we wondering if maybe they had same father.. 

We going to make sure he gets done before her just in case.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

If you get your boy neutered first remember that he will could be fertile for several weeks after.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

They are such an adorable pair :001_wub:
I'd get them neutered at the same time if you can, as early as the vet will do it. If you want to get them done separately I'd recommend getting Kiteye spayed first, as lymorelynn is right


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Kash, they are such dear little cuties!:001_wub::001_wub: I think they're both going to be stunning adult cats! You will be so proud of them


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you   They are so cute and adorable!!

Yea vet said last week in around a couple of months time they will be ready. That said that was when we assumed they were 9 weeks. 
Will ask next week when we go for first vaccine what she thinks is best. 

Do males recover fast from OP?
Our female we had pulled all her stitches out and was in a right sorry state. All her insides came out which was horrible. She had to go back under and get re stitched then they gave us a collar. 
Is that common for cats to do that? 

Will get them done as soon as vet says its ok.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Hey all,
Quick question. 
They are eating loads more than they previously did. In the morning's they are like little maniacs wanting food, running round scratching door and Climbing up me basically like they are on speed lol. Wesker eats his food really fast and she is eating a lot more. 
Even 45 mins today after a big fed a large meal they seem hungry again. Is this normal now for there age? Should I feed them again so soon if they seem hungry? Will there tummies be ok. 
I have noticed past few days there appetite has really increased. 
Just surprised me how hungry all of a sudden they seem! 

BTW they are not being under fed. Well by Whisker directions anyway. I feed them several meals during day.


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## idris (Feb 19, 2015)

The general rule with kittens is to feed often and pretty much as much as they want, obviously gorging themselves until they are sick is not a good idea. Kittens seam to have an inbuilt ability to self regulate their food intake. I was sceptical of this statement, my kitten was putting on 200g + a week for about 6 weeks and I worried that this was too much too fast. He was having a massive growth spurt. He is now choosing to eat less and he seems to be in a growth rest. When he starts asking for more again I know growth is back on. If they are hungry feed them x


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## m1xc2 (Mar 19, 2015)

idris said:


> The general rule with kittens is to feed often and pretty much as much as they want, obviously gorging themselves until they are sick is not a good idea. Kittens seam to have an inbuilt ability to self regulate their food intake. I was sceptical of this statement, my kitten was putting on 200g + a week for about 6 weeks and I worried that this was too much too fast. He was having a massive growth spurt. He is now choosing to eat less and he seems to be in a growth rest. When he starts asking for more again I know growth is back on. If they are hungry feed them x


^ What she said.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Sorry for late reply. Life has been hectic. 

Thanks for the input. Still learning what is what with them. 
They are getting bigger even if I am the only one that seems to notice lol. 

Wesker really is a lovely boy even if slightly behind Kiteye a bit in some ways. Yet his confidence has grown so much. 

Kiteye she is a bit more adventurous but she seems to have a changed a bit. 
She plays with him a lot and seems healthy. Yet she does not seem the same affectionate kitten we had at first. 
Maybe When Wesker lacked confidence she took over as some have suggested. 
But she seems a bit reserved and will only come and say hello when it suits her. Where as before she was always eager to see you and crawl on you and lie down. 
Now she still a bit friendly but a bit stand off ish. Very hard to explain but she seems more reserved. She will sit on you still but again only very ocassionally now. Never the lap always the chest or shoulder. 

Seems a shame as she was my favourite as her personality was second to none. She had to be involved in everything and wanted attention and loved us. Now its seems a very very watered down her. 
Again I do not think she is ill, maybe just not as outgoing with us as we first thought. 
Still love her and try to give her solo attention but seems like she not very interested unless I am feeding her lol. 
Maybe this is her or maybe its because she is Tortie. Is this her personality to stay now? 

Her and Whesker get on well 'barr the odd fight' and often sleep together. But also quite often she will go and sleep away from him. I guess she will be quite independant.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

My parents have a tortie cat and she is very independent. She has NEVER sat on a lap or cuddled. However she likes to lay on the back of the sofa if my Mum is there. Funny girl, very friendly but not the cuddly type.
I wonder if its a tortie thing and Kiteye may grow up to be the same? 
I wouldn't worry too much, act the same as you do usually around her - maybe it's a phase


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

She is cute though  Just not as out going as him. But they are both different in good ways  
They had thee first jabs yesterday which I am pleased about. 


Kiteye does something strange with the bowls of water. She kind of looks like she wants to drink some but is maybe scared. She will watch Wesker drink and then sort of keeps going to then stops. 
I have tried saucers cups and bowls. I wonder if she is scared of water of something lol.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

It may be the reflection on the surface of the water that puts her off. But if you are feeding a wet food diet (with only a few dry pieces as treats) then she probably doesn't need to drink water anyway, as she is getting her fluids in her food, as nature intended with cats.

But if you are feeding her more than a few pieces of dry feed a day then she needs to be encouraged to drink, and so I would recommend getting a pet water fountain, as the water keeps moving slightly.

Cat Mate Pet Fountain: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

Ceramic fountains for pets are much nicer but they are more expensive and as you don't know how well your kitties will take to a fountain it may not be worth spending the extra on a ceramic one right now.

PetSafe Drinkwell Ceramic Avalon Pet Fountain: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Again I am sorry for delay in posting! Life been so busy. 
Thank you for your suggestions. 
It seems Kiteye prefers a saucer rather than a bowl after all lol. Nice to see her drink!

Kiteye eating well and playing loads with Wesker. Yet again she is a fraction of the kitten we had the first few days. 
It is like the amazing personality we saw for the first few days was another kitten. I know some of you said maybe as Wesker was quiet she took advantage. 
Still though she went from wanting our attention and coming up to us all the time and being really involved with everything, to quite stand off. 
Don't get me wrong she is friendly but she often likes to do her own thing, when she not playing with Wesker. 


Just a shame as she had such an adorable personality and it is like someone swapped the cat! We do love her and I don't mean to sound mean, but she just not a warm kitten at all. 
The vet said tehy both seemed well when they were vaccinated last week. She eats and drinks and plays with him a lot. 
I know Torties can be stand offish. but man what a change from when we first got her. 
She is cute in her little way though. I do hope I am not coming off as mean. 
Its just she seems like she likes to be on her own more than see us.


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## kash80 (Mar 29, 2015)

Cute pic I took today. They were sleepy.


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## CarerQuie (Apr 23, 2015)

I've just come to this thread,having joined the forum today. Your kittens are adorable. I've joined because I've got a 10 week old kitten who just will not use a litter tray at all. She seems to like going behind furniture.

I've now gone out and bought some different litter to try and a high sided litter tray. I wondered if she felt exposed with a conventional tray.

The lady I got her from said a couple of the kittens were going behind the settee to do their business but she didn't know which ones.

In every other way, belle is the most lovely kitten so I'd be grateful for any tips.

Is Simple Solution in a spray or a bottle?xx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

CarerQuie said:


> I've just come to this thread,having joined the forum today. Your kittens are adorable. I've joined because I've got a 10 week old kitten who just will not use a litter tray at all. She seems to like going behind furniture.
> 
> I've now gone out and bought some different litter to try and a high sided litter tray. I wondered if she felt exposed with a conventional tray.
> 
> ...


Hi there, welcome to Pet Forum It sounds possible your kitten has never been properly trained to use the litter tray, as I think it's likely she was one of the kittens the 'breeder' said had been soiling behind the sofa. It is good of you to take her on knowing that it might be the case.

Basically you need to start from scratch with litter tray training.

First buy some cat litter called Cat Attract. It is very expensive but is very successful in training kitties to use the tray. You will only need to use it until she has the hang of using the tray, so one bag might be enough.

Next provide as many trays as you can, (at least 4 for now) make them open trays, spread around the house, not all together in one room. For the moment put one behind the sofa.

Clean up any wee with Urine Off or Simple Solution, or make a solution of bio laundry liquid (which contains enzymes that break down body fluids such as urine) . If she has weed on carpet, you will probably need to roll back the carpet and clean the underlay and scrub the floor underneath. Let the carpet dry before laying it down again. If the underlay is badly soiled you will need to cut out the damaged part and replace it.

If kitty wees on the floor, use kitchen paper towel to soak it up, put the wet paper in the nearest tray. Then calmly pick up kitty and gently show her the wet paper in the tray. This is a training exercise not a punishment, so it is important she sees your action as something positive and doesn't get stressed.

You may need to keep up this training for a couple of weeks to see if she gets the hang of it. If she doesn't then you need to crate train her for a few weeks. That would involve buying or borrowing a folding dog crate big enough for kitty and her bed, litter tray, food and water, no bigger. This then gives her less choice of where to pee, and in most cases she would use the litter tray. But it may not come to crate training.

At night I would keep her in one room at the moment with a couple of trays, so there is more likelihood she will use the trays. If you can safely leave her in the kitchen at night where wee is easier to clean off the hard floor, then so much the better.

It is possible she may have feline cystitis which can be stress-related. She may be associating the tray with pain or discomfort when she pees and so is avoiding it for that reason. You need to avoid her urine being too concentrated so you should increase her fluid levels making her urine more dilute and easier to pass, so her bladder is being flushed out more often. Do not feed any dry food. A wet food diet is by far the best way to increase fluid levels as it is natural for a cat to get most of their fluids in their food, they are not great drinkers.

Is she using the tray for pooing BTW?

Good luck, would appreciate some feedback.


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## CarerQuie (Apr 23, 2015)

Thank you. I just feel that the kitten missed out on that part of the socialisation process. She is adorable but clueless!

I prefer feeding her wet food. My previous cat loved wet food and so that's what I'm going with.

The Vet is happy with her general health but offered no tips about the issue. She's started her vaccinations and will be neutered at 6 months.xx


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