# Skin problems / steroids help advice wanted



## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Hi All,

We have a little patterdale terrier who's coming up to 12 months in May.

He was constantly itching himself unless we occupied him and he's ended up with little scabs and sores and some of his fur has started to bald.

We checked for all the suspect things and we also tried to change things that may cause it ie food, washing powders etc etc but to no avail.

We finally took him to the vet who said he prob has a skin allergy and obviously to find out what can cost thousands and sometimes doesn't end up finding out much. So they put him on steroids for a week and gave us some shampoo to put on his sores once a day and some drops for his eyes. As soon as we stopped the steroids he started itching non stop again  

We took him back to the vet again who has put him on steroids for another month but just a bit wary about keeping him on them long term as we've read quite a few bad things about him.

They suggested some calming shampoo to buy but just wondered if anybody had and alternative treatments / things we could try? or anything that may have helped your dog in the long run if hes had a skin condition.

I would be grateful for any help as I dont want him to go back to scratching all the time the poor little love.

Thank in advance x


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Also just reading through some posts and read that somebody said that if steroids are working then it's not likely the food they are eating? 

Is this correct does anybody know?

Cheers


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

nadinejane said:


> Hi All,
> 
> We have a little patterdale terrier who's coming up to 12 months in May.
> 
> ...


Although allergies will cause itching and scratching and there can be a variety of things that can cause it from environmental things to intolerances in food there are also mites that can cause it too, that are not visible to the naked eye.

One of the most common and is incredibly itchy and will drive a dog mad is sarcoptic that live and burrow in the skin which is where they lay their eggs.
The eggs and the burrowing in the skin causes an intense itchiness and inflammatory response just like you can get with allergies and allergy dermatitis. It often starts where the hair is thinnest places like the belly, ear flaps, elbows and then as more eggs are laid it can spread to all over the body.
Scabbing and hair loss can be seen as with allergy conditions too. Because of the itch scratch cycle you often get secondary bacterial infection too with both ot any itchy skin condition. The steroids are anti inflammatory and they also suppress the immune systems response to the allergen or irritant, but if the allergen is still present or if its something like the mites causing the inflammation and flare ups, then when its withdrawn it will come back.

Sarcoptic unlike some other mites is often missed even if they do skin scrapes.
in fact only a small percentage is diagnosed that way, most are missed, there is a blood test called sarcoptic mange antibody test, that's accurate but that has to be done 4/8 weeks post symptoms starting to give the chance for the antibodies to become detectable. If the first is border line then you usally have to do another 2 weeks later.

What flea treatment is he on? Some wont do sarcoptic and other mites. Advocate does sarcoptic and demodex mites as well as ear mites which can also be found on the body and things like biting lice as well as fleas. Stronghold does sarcoptic mites too.

Some vets will do skin scrapes which although as mentioned may be successful in finding other mites like demodex, but not sarcoptic, there is the blood test or some vets will just treat on the clinical symptoms and rule it out that way to see if it makes a difference especially with sarcoptic. 
Some dogs can actually be allergic to the saliva in fleas too which will cause flea allergy dermatitis. So treating the home and dog can help with that. You don't always see the fleas but what you do see is specks that look like dirt or grit in the coat which if you brush onto white kitchen towel and drip on a cople of drops of water they turn a reddish brown, which means there have been fleas on the dog and feeding.

Whatever the problem is if the problem is still there really steroids are only a sticking plaster to treat the symptoms not a cause and if the problem remains it will just come back whatever it is.

It could be allergies but it could also be other things too. If he isn't on any of the products mentioned for flea treatment which will treat mites or some of them then it could be more possible perhaps that's what it is.

Generally for itchy skin there is dermacton which has helped a lot of dogs. 
Dermacton - Skin Relief for Dogs with Itchy Skin
That comes in shampoo bar, spray and cream form and may help depending on what it is.

A coat and skin supplement may help there is yumega plus for itchy skin
Dog Skin Problems? YUMEGA PLUS for Skin Conditions in Dogs

Or vet strength ones like efavet and viacutan plus that are sometimes used with allergy problems as well as being a general coat and skin supplement. Those you can buy on line or maybe get your vet to prescribe in which case although more expensive may be covered on insurance.

It may be allergies its possible, but there are other things that can cause itchy skin conditions too.


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks for that 

Why would the vet just re put him back on steroids if when they stop it will start again? I know obviously it helps the dog but like you said it's just like a plaster so never going to cure him.

Ronnies on the bob martin double action spot on.

Sometimes it seems worse when he comes in from been outside? Itching wise he just itches everywhere  

Im sure my partner tried the kitchen towel & water thing on grit from the coat before but will double check when he's home.

The vet also suggested that yumega stuff too so think might investigate that too. We did change his food to dry wainwrights salmon & potato to remove meat and rice to see if that helped but hard to tell as they started him on the steroids a bit after that.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

nadinejane said:


> Also just reading through some posts and read that somebody said that if steroids are working then it's not likely the food they are eating?
> 
> Is this correct does anybody know?
> 
> Cheers


Usually all an allergy is, is the bodies immune system going overboard and reacting to the specific allergen what ever it is. Steroids have an antiflammatory response which will calm down any inflammation and stop things like itching. It also suppresses the bodies immune system so that it doesn't respond and go over board. In doing so it can also lead them open to other infections if used long enough too, and have side effects, like excessive, peeing, drinking and it also stimulates the appetite so they can act like they are hungry all the time too. Long term it can actually mess up the adrenal system in different ways and cause further side affects. They often give it for inflammatory gut problems sometimes too, so whatever the allergen environmental, contact, or food assuming it is an actual allergy to the food in theory it should work or so far as Ive been lead to believe.

If you want to look more into actual allergies, which from what I can gather he has just assumed it could possibly be there is some details on biolife home.

http://resources.monomatic.co.uk/bio-life/atopic-dermatitis-or-eczema.pdf

http://resources.monomatic.co.uk/bio-life/nature-of-skin-conditions-in-dogs.pdf

They do a range of skin care products for dogs too, and also allergen neutralisers, there is some more PDFs on dog skin conditions at the end too you can click on.

Skincare for dogs

Allergy Preventatives

As said though at the moment it has not been confirmed as allergies or if it is as to what, but the PDFs may be of interest to read and gain information on allergies and things that may help.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

nadinejane said:


> Thanks for that
> 
> Why would the vet just re put him back on steroids if when they stop it will start again? I know obviously it helps the dog but like you said it's just like a plaster so never going to cure him.
> 
> ...


If it were mites like the ones mentioned then Bob martin wouldn't do them anyway, I should imagine if you check that it may only be for fleas and ticks. Some dogs haven't had a good response to the stuff itself on here or others of the same manufacture.

If he is worse after coming in from outside, then it could be an allergy to something like pollens, grasses etc. Certain plants will do it too in some dogs, it doesn't have to be a contact thing, you can actually get an allergic response from inhaling things like pollen, fungal spores and all sorts.

It could well be just an allergy, so worth reading the PDFs Ive linked you to on allergens and allergy preventatives. The post about mites etc was just so you are aware that skin problems can be caused by a variety of things that may or may not have already been ruled out either.


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

It shouldn't cost £1000's for allergy tests though do environmental as well as food


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> If it were mites like the ones mentioned then Bob martin wouldn't do them anyway, I should imagine if you check that it may only be for fleas and ticks. Some dogs haven't had a good response to the stuff itself on here or others of the same manufacture.
> 
> If he is worse after coming in from outside, then it could be an allergy to something like pollens, grasses etc. Certain plants will do it too in some dogs, it doesn't have to be a contact thing, you can actually get an allergic response from inhaling things like pollen, fungal spores and all sorts.
> 
> It could well be just an allergy, so worth reading the PDFs Ive linked you to on allergens and allergy preventatives. The post about mites etc was just so you are aware that skin problems can be caused by a variety of things that may or may not have already been ruled out either.


Thanks so much I will have a look at those all this is such a great help esp when we don't really have a clue about these things. Going to read them all now 

Thank you so much for taking time to explain and help with all the above really appreciate your time. x


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

victoria171168 said:


> It shouldn't cost £1000's for allergy tests though do environmental as well as food


Really I might ask at the vets. My friend got one done and she said it cost nearly £1000  so just assumed.


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## BobbyC (Jan 12, 2010)

My boy developed a similar thing. We tried every food we could get but that didn't work. He had several different medications from the vets ending up on atopica which costs a fortune and hes only a small dog. We have recently changed him to raw and its like magic. He has stopped scratching doesn't smell like he did and we no longer need to bath him every 1-2 weeks.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

victoria171168 said:


> It shouldn't cost £1000's for allergy tests though do environmental as well as food


I second this - an allergy blood test isn't cheap but it's not thousands. Usually £200-300.

Don't bother with blood tests for food, though. Only a food trial can diagnose a food allergy. Environmental allergens - definitely.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Sled dog hotel has covered most of the issues here regarding possible underlying causes, other than allergies, that ideally need to be ruled out.

If you do decide to continue treatment for allergies, ask your vet about Apoquel. Fewer long-term side effects than steroids and seems to be pretty effective.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I did have one dog that was allergic to wheat and gluten and her hair used to fall out, she was also allergic to salmon and potato.


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## BananaBassett (Apr 24, 2012)

nadinejane said:


> Really I might ask at the vets. My friend got one done and she said it cost nearly £1000  so just assumed.


i recently had an extended environmental allergy test done which cost £190. it would have been an additional £60 per positive test to find out HOW allergic he was to it. it test all types of grass, leaves, trees, dust etc etc..

they ALL came back negative. he was on atarax and Apoquel (quite expensive), with symptoms such as peeling blackening skin; thin skin; scabs on his back, sparse hair. i have since taken him off of them as seemed unnecessary. his condition is the same, not worsened, and i am quite baffled! we too have tried different foods, with different meat contents over time to no avail. am thinking of trying raw too, but frightened of making that leap.

good luck x


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

What foods have you tried for your dog ?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

We had Cian allergy tested and it was just over £100 it came back as dust and storage mite allergy, he's fed raw! We give him coconut oil every day and that helps all chair covers are washed in kennel cleaner as are his towels we also give him hay fever tablets if he is ichy. He has the odd flare up but other than that he's grand, cocono oil really helped.


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## winter (Dec 16, 2012)

My german shepherd had skin problems and was on steroids, antihistamines and antibiotics which made him feel unwell the vet did blood tests which cost £300 and found he was allergic to beef,chicken, house dust mites, storage mites and four different types of pollen.
I recommend blood tests if your dog hasn't had them as there are so many different things they can be allergic to.
I changed my dogs food to grain free orijen and his skin has cleared up he know longer scratches and I use Indorex spray for house dust mites.
I hope you manage to find what is causing your dogs itching.


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## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

We're in the process of finding out and easing Bears allergy problems
He's due to have allergy testing bloodwork in 2 weeks ( costs just over
£300 btw) when the steroid injection he had 6 weeks ago is fully out 
Of his system. 

Bear is now on Apoquel and I have to say they are amazing....quite
Expensive but the side effects are next to none compared to other allergy
Meds. Plus they don't mess with the results of any testing. 

The downside is that they are very new to the market and Also our vet sAys 
They could stop working when the meds have reached there peak but
Will take effect again after a week or so when continuing the tablets. 

I would recommend Apoquel......Bear is doing fantastic on them so far.


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## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

Meezey said:


> We had Cian allergy tested and it was just over £100 it came back as dust and storage mite allergy, he's fed raw! We give him coconut oil every day and that helps all chair covers are washed in kennel cleaner as are his towels we also give him hay fever tablets if he is ichy. He has the odd flare up but other than that he's grand, cocono oil really helped.


I've just sTarted both Bear and Bubs on coconut oil a couple of 
Weeks ago so glad I've seen your post that it helps Cian.


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

BobbyC said:


> My boy developed a similar thing. We tried every food we could get but that didn't work. He had several different medications from the vets ending up on atopica which costs a fortune and hes only a small dog. We have recently changed him to raw and its like magic. He has stopped scratching doesn't smell like he did and we no longer need to bath him every 1-2 weeks.


Sorry for delayed response not had internet for week.

It's so weird as now I'm starting to wonder if it is food even though I previously thought wrong. I moved him onto wainwrights potato and salmon dry food to see if it might be the grains in the meaty wainwrights food. He still seemed to itch but maybe it wasnt enough time for it to settle with him not sure if the itching would stop instant?

At the same time as changing foods he went on the steroids so itching stopped. He wasn't really into the dry food so we decided to just put him back on the meat stuff him still been on steroids.

But now Ive noticed that he's itching a little bit of the steroids and now I'm wondering if it's the meaty food with rice in it.

Just so hard to test while he's on steroids


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> I second this - an allergy blood test isn't cheap but it's not thousands. Usually £200-300.
> 
> Don't bother with blood tests for food, though. Only a food trial can diagnose a food allergy. Environmental allergens - definitely.


Thanks for this 

I think when he's off steroids Im going to try a proper food trial as Ive just changed him back to meaty wainwrights from Salmon and potatoes and he seems to be itching a bit whilst still on the steroids.

So hard working things out


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

babycham2002 said:


> What foods have you tried for your dog ?


All we've given him since having him was wainwrights wet meat & rice food then replaced it with wainwrights Salmon & potato dry food which he didnt seen to like as guess it was a bit more boring to him.

But now Ive changed him back to the meaty stuff he seems like hes itching a bit on the steroids so now Im wondering if it is the food arghhhh! So hard knowing.


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Meezey said:


> We had Cian allergy tested and it was just over £100 it came back as dust and storage mite allergy, he's fed raw! We give him coconut oil every day and that helps all chair covers are washed in kennel cleaner as are his towels we also give him hay fever tablets if he is ichy. He has the odd flare up but other than that he's grand, cocono oil really helped.


Where do I get the coconut oil or is it like our coconut oil we would buy in supermarket or oriental stores?? Might try that  We tried hayfever tabs but didnt work.

What's Kennel cleaner too? Sorry for all questions xxx


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## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

I bought mine from Ebay.......

Biona Virgin Coconut Oil 800g | eBay

AAlso Wainwrights do grain free wet now with no potato in...just sweet potato and veg...maybe worth giving that a go.

I tried Bear on it but it made him quite "loose" and going around 6 times a day and with our vet been quite positive that his allergies weren't food related I've popped him back on the rice version as he only has a small amount to mix in with his dry.

Wainwright&#039;s Grain Free Lamb and Vegetables 395g | Pets At Home

Hope the links help.


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## excellium (Apr 25, 2014)

By all means try to find out what is causing an allergy. I have a 4 year old Black Labrador who has had mild to very severe itching and skin problems since he was six months old. I have tried everything and everything, steroids (which I have tried to limit) shampoos, herbal remedies, hibi scrub, piriton, anti-histamines. All the treatments I have tried, only anti-histamines like piriton work but I have to give him so much it makes him lethargic and constantly sleeping. Two weeks ago I went to my vet and I had never seen here before. She mentioned a new drug called Apoquel that had only been released in January. She asked me to think about it as it had little or no side effects. Over the Easter bank holiday weekend Barney itched and scratched until his paws bled. Usually at this stage it would be another steroid injection. 
The vet told me she had only tried it on one dog so far and it had made no difference. I decided I had nothing to lose so decided to give it a try. Within an hour Barney's itching and scratching had subsided. Within 4 hours it had stopped. That night for the first time in weeks his constant licking never woke me up. Its now day 4 and I really cannot emphasize the change in him. I have a new dog, its absolutely incredible. 
The vet said he may get vomiting and diarrhea but apart from one bout of being sick he is fine. Faeces have remained normal, he has a lot more energy and is clearly a lot happier. I am so relieved to see him now. 
One thing I have found out is that the dog being treated has to have certain skin receptors for it to work and obviously Barney has them. The manufacturers claim it works in 85% of dogs.  Well it has certainly worked on Barney.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

nadinejane said:


> Thanks for this
> 
> I think when he's off steroids Im going to try a proper food trial as Ive just changed him back to meaty wainwrights from Salmon and potatoes and he seems to be itching a bit whilst still on the steroids.
> 
> So hard working things out


I disagree. Intradermal skin testing is the most accurate test for environmental allergens. Blood testing pales in comparison! Skin testing only cost £200 for my lad a couple of years ago. It really is the gold standard of allergy testing, blood testing is not. Just make sure it's a vet who has done it before it has some kind of dermatology experience.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> I disagree. Intradermal skin testing is the most accurate test for environmental allergens. Blood testing pales in comparison! Skin testing only cost £200 for my lad a couple of years ago. It really is the gold standard of allergy testing, blood testing is not. Just make sure it's a vet who has done it before it has some kind of dermatology experience.


I think you were meant to quote me in that?

If so then yes, I agree - I think an intradermal test would be the best option if the OP can find a vet who can carry it out.

I just wanted to be clear that although blood tests for food allergy exist, I wouldn't bother with those.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> I think you were meant to quote me in that?
> 
> If so then yes, I agree - I think an intradermal test would be the best option if the OP can find a vet who can carry it out.
> 
> I just wanted to be clear that although blood tests for food allergy exist, I wouldn't bother with those.


I quoted them as they were replying to you, too difficult to go back and find your post to quote off an iPhone! 

Blood allergy testing is just less accurate but as far as food goes it is better than nothing I think. Quite a few vets have a certificate in dermatology or can recommend somewhere that can do it. My dog's specialist did it in the end but my own usual vets were able to do it. I just used the specialist as they were doing other stuff too.


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

So I'm on with doing a few things suggested by you all 

I took Ronnie back to the vets today as the steroids had finished and as soon as they did he's back to itching like crazy! So I went to the vets we are with Pdsa as we are on a low income. Anyway I found the vet really unhelpful today I asked about the new tablets a few people have mentioned the Apoquel ones. She said she'd never heard of them and that I should go to a proper vets? I thought Pdsa was still a proper vets but just for people who were unable to afford a private vets? I also asked if they did allergy tests and she again told me to go to a private vets as they don't do them. She wasn't helpful in anyway at all  

Ronnie's only just started itching again after the steroids stopped and has a few sores already and really itchy eyes. The vet was like he's not that bad! I'm like well he's only just stopped the steroids if I left him like this he will get really really bad sores.

She fobbed me off with more steroids which I don't want to give him. I should have some epi-soothe arriving in the next few days which I hope might help? 

Anyway just a bit fed up today as the vet was just really unhelpful and poor Ronnie is just itching and itching  

Xxx


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

nadinejane said:


> So I'm on with doing a few things suggested by you all
> 
> I took Ronnie back to the vets today as the steroids had finished and as soon as they did he's back to itching like crazy! So I went to the vets we are with Pdsa as we are on a low income. Anyway I found the vet really unhelpful today I asked about the new tablets a few people have mentioned the Apoquel ones. She said she'd never heard of them and that I should go to a proper vets? I thought Pdsa was still a proper vets but just for people who were unable to afford a private vets? I also asked if they did allergy tests and she again told me to go to a private vets as they don't do them. She wasn't helpful in anyway at all
> 
> ...


Unfortunately it is the case that the PDSA will only supply a certain level of care. They are a charity and allergy testing and apoquel don't come cheap. The drugs costing three times as much as steroids, although of course we can argue the problems that can then be caused by longterm steroid use.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

One of my boys has a grass allergy.

Collodial silver http://www.ukcolloidalsilver.co.uk/ukpaypalorder.htm

Is the difference between him looking like this




and like this



I'd say at £18 a bottle it's definitely worth a go. It has worked miracles for my boy.

Best of luck

Vicki


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks for that Vicky I so hope it works in him 

Xx


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

babycham2002 said:


> Unfortunately it is the case that the PDSA will only supply a certain level of care. They are a charity and allergy testing and apoquel don't come cheap. The drugs costing three times as much as steroids, although of course we can argue the problems that can then be caused by longterm steroid use.


Aww I didn't realise that I wish she would have said it like that she was just so rude and abrupt she scared me ha ha.

I guess il have to see how I get on with everyone's advice and if no luck get saving for a private vet visit to get some allergy test done.

Thanks for your help xxx


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

No problem, I hope you can find a solution. Keep us updated.

Vx


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

babycham2002 said:


> One of my boys has a grass allergy.
> 
> Collodial silver http://www.ukcolloidalsilver.co.uk/ukpaypalorder.htm
> I'd say at £18 a bottle it's definitely worth a go. It has worked miracles for my boy.
> ...


Reading this with interest - Maisie's steroids have been reducing down & she's unfortunately started itching again (not unsurprisingly but we had hoped whatever it was outside had maybe flowered / would be dead by the time she was finished them)

Will be going back to vets but wondering if the Collodialsilver is worth a try

Can I ask a really silly question - is it applied to the skin & do you do it every day?

(she hates being bathed / groomed / stuff done to her )


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Nadinejane whilst you are in process of saving for allergy testing etc...

I would recommend that you keep a diary of when his allergy seems worse etc... and you may be able to identify a pattern and possible trigger. Pollen can be another trigger especially at this time of year, so washing paws after every walk can help.

I would give him a grain free diet as that is often one things that can cause itchies.
Also watch what treats you are giving too and steer clear of high sugar, grains and processed treats.

I would suggest you try coconut oil. Get some organic Virgin unrefined coconut oil and start off with 1/4 teaspoon a day and build up to a teaspoon.Don't give too much at once as can cause bum explosions! : http://coconut-oil-dogs.com/

I would bathe him in cooled green tea. You buy this cheaply at Tesco ( just get their own brand teabags). Bathe his eyes in it too. Use a separate cotton pad for each eye. Tea contain Tannin which is a natural anti inflamm and is really soothing for them, especially the eyes.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Lilylass said:


> Reading this with interest - Maisie's steroids have been reducing down & she's unfortunately started itching again (not unsurprisingly but we had hoped whatever it was outside had maybe flowered / would be dead by the time she was finished them)
> 
> Will be going back to vets but wondering if the Collodialsilver is worth a try
> 
> ...


Not a silly question at all, you can give topically or internally

I give it to him internally, about 5-10ml a day on his food


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

babycham2002 said:


> I give it to him internally, about 5-10ml a day on his food


Ohhhhh that's fantastic  will def get some to give it a try then as she's generally OK having things added to her food & much easier than trying to apply it 

(although I did find one of her Evening Primrose Oil capsules on the floor the other day )


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Lilylass said:


> Ohhhhh that's fantastic  will def get some to give it a try then as she's generally OK having things added to her food & much easier than trying to apply it
> 
> (although I did find one of her Evening Primrose Oil capsules on the floor the other day )


Because it's basically just water it's super easy 

I also have used it with great success on my mums dog who has had recurrent ear infections. A couple of drops fixes him up perfect when he has one coming on.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

My daughter had Teebs bloods allergy tested and it came back as allergic to house dust and storage mites, which are found in abundance in kibble particularly at the bottom of the bag. 
The tests were carried out in Belgium and the desensitising serum is also made there. The initial tests and bottle of serum came to £864 but there's a good ten months of serum in the bottle. He's built up to 1ml of serum per month now and his itching has virtually stopped. Although he's mostly raw fed he did used to have the occasional kibble meal, not any more though and as I only have carpet on the stairs our house doesn't gather dust around the edges of rooms. Dust mite are things we all have to live with, so desensitisation was the best treatment plan. Much as it is in humans with known allergies.


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Hi All,

Just thought I would update you on Ronnie. We sent off for allergy test but whilst waiting used the epi-soothe and other remedies mentioned but to no avail.

His tests came back and seems he's allergic to a lot of food related thing which happen to appear in nearly every single food I look at  feel a bit lost on it now.
People have mentioned doing the raw diet and Ive had a bit of a read but would need to fully sit down and go through it all properly. 

The only thing that came out for outside was insecticides and fungicides and we don't really take him near farmland etc

I just think he's going to have to go on raw.

The test also says he's the arteries & veins are inflamed as well as the hypothalamus gland and the parathyroid gland going to have to research these. Looks like there's allsorts to sort


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

nadinejane said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just thought I would update you on Ronnie. We sent off for allergy test but whilst waiting used the epi-soothe and other remedies mentioned but to no avail.
> 
> ...


I'd seriously consider a food trial for him if you're concerned about a food allergy. I haven't yet met a veterinary dermatologist who has said a blood test is a satisfactory way of diagnosing a food allergy.

Out of interest, what was this test? It shows arterial inflammation and hypothalamic / parathyroid inflammation? :blink: :blink:


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

If food allergens have been indicated then raw could well help, but it takes a lot of research and commitment to get right. It doesn't suit every dog and a lot of people struggle not only with getting the balance right, but also with the practicalities of handling raw meat, storage and all the planning and preparation that has to be done. 

The most common contributors to problems with commercial foods, especially with allergies, are the cereals that are used to bulk up the food, maize, wheat and barley are considerably cheaper than meat so it makes sense for the manufacturers to use them. There can also be problems with some of the additives and preservatives that are used. Raw cuts all of these out, so you could potentially see a positive result very quickly, but it is also not uncommon for dogs to be allegic to specific protein sources, like chicken or beef. A raw diet would allow you to work around that, but it is a process of elimination, so you could also make the problem worse before you make it better.

Read the sticky on 'Raw Feeding, everything you need to know' to get some idea of what is involved.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Nadinejane. Was this test something you did via the internet?

It's a bit odd that it picked up arteritis and hypothalamus and parathyroid issues. It's also bit odd to talk about "inflammation" of the hypothalamus and parathyroid. I've never heard that term used.
Arteritis (inflammation of the arteries) can be a serious condition and I'm not aware of a blood test which would diagnose this. Usually imaging is required.

Where were the tests done and what tests were done?


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Hi All,

It was a hair test done by the natural medicine man via facebook hes a doctor in bioregulatory medicine & homeotherapeutics.

It said in the comprehensive analysis test indicated that the following organs and glads are inflamed: The arteries & veins, The hypothalamus gland, the kidneys and the parathyroid gland. Then said vitamin deficiency B-3 and he has lack of dopamine and serotonin he supplied a homeopathic remedy for this which is given to the dog for 10 weeks.

The dietary allergies and environmental are the ones we have to work on.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

nadinejane said:


> Hi All,
> 
> It was a hair test done by the natural medicine man via facebook hes a doctor in bioregulatory medicine & homeotherapeutics.
> 
> ...


I'd approach this with caution.

If your hypothalamus was inflamed (remarkable that this can be found by looking at a hair), you'd have a fair few more signs than itchy skin. Trust me.

ETA: If I'm looking at the right guy on Facebook, he is not a medical doctor. Not even a human one, let alone a veterinary surgeon.


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> I'd approach this with caution.
> 
> If your hypothalamus was inflamed (remarkable that this can be found by looking at a hair), you'd have a fair few more signs than itchy skin. Trust me.
> 
> ETA: If I'm looking at the right guy on Facebook, he is not a medical doctor. Not even a human one, let alone a veterinary surgeon.


 we was recommended him by a few people looks like we've been had


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

This is the guy I just googled him x

Holistic Remedies UK - Info


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

nadinejane said:


> we was recommended him by a few people looks like we've been had


Based purely on what you've said here, and what I've quickly read online, I would say so, yes.  I hope you didn't pay too much.

Itchy skin is so frustrating and I feel for you. There's some good advice on this thread about allergy testing. I still can't see that your dog has had any actual hands-on samples for mites, _Malassezzia_ infection, cytology etc (apologies if he has and I've missed this).

Get these done. If they're all clear, look into the intradermal or blood tests for environmental allergens and an exclusion diet trial for food allergy.

And/or ask to see a veterinary dermatologist. Where are you based?


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Based in Leeds


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> Based purely on what you've said here, and what I've quickly read online, I would say so, yes.  I hope you didn't pay too much.
> 
> Itchy skin is so frustrating and I feel for you. There's some good advice on this thread about allergy testing. I still can't see that your dog has had any actual hands-on samples for mites, _Malassezzia_ infection, cytology etc (apologies if he has and I've missed this).
> 
> ...


No was £35 and was all we could afford hence going to him and not a proper vet as we are with pdsa and all they do is give us steroids. Couldn't afford full tests at the moment but might have to just save and put away each month.

Could have had that £35 to go towards


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Okay, IIRC Anthony Chadwick practices up that way. He's supposed to be pretty good. 

I really hope you can get this sorted xxx


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

nadinejane said:


> No was £35 and was all we could afford hence going to him and not a proper vet as we are with pdsa and all they do is give us steroids. Couldn't afford full tests at the moment but might have to just save and put away each month.
> 
> Could have had that £35 to go towards


Ah, right. Cytology and skin scrapes etc should not be too expensive. It's a matter of a few glass slides, a bit of sellotape and the vet's time to look under the microscope.

A food trial is not expensive either. You can do a home-cooked one or buy one of the hydrolysed commercial ones. You just have to be really strict with the diet.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Why do people go to witch doctors and shamans?

I just find it unbelievable how easy it is to part people from their money?

I suppose the logic is the same as all those people who spout "I do not care or want someone with paper qualifications to (insert relevant job)"

Could you not send the money to someone to hang on a tree in the Amazon?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

nadinejane said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just thought I would update you on Ronnie. We sent off for allergy test but whilst waiting used the epi-soothe and other remedies mentioned but to no avail.
> 
> ...


The hypothalamus and Parathyroids are part of the endocrine system.
Everything starts in the hypothalamus with production of things like corticotropin releasing hormone and thyrotropin releasing hormone and others. That then goes down to the pituitary gland where other hormones are released for various things, like adrenocorticotrophic hormone ACTH which goes to the ardrenal glands that then produce cortisol amongst other things, 
Thyroid secreting hormone which goes down to the Thyroid to tell it to produce the various thyroid hormones. There are others too but just to name a few.

The parathyroids are next to the thyroid gland but not influenced by the thyroid gland itself conditions of the parathyroid gland are not related to the thyroid itself, they produce something called parathyroid hormone, the parathyroid hormone regulates calcium.

Just a thought too when you said the only outside factors were insecticides and fungicides, what flea and worming treatments are used on him because certain things that are in some flea treatments are actually used in agriculture and farming too even though it may be marketed under a different brand name for the different uses like crops its still the same actual generic ingredient.

Advocate just as an example contains Imidacloprid in it see below how its other uses.
Imidacloprid

Fipronil that is used as a flea treatment in things like fiprospot, Frontline etc
is also used as an agricultural insecticide.

Fipronil

Some dogs especially if genetically predisposed can develop varying immune responses and immune mediated conditions, although they usually require a trigger. There are some articles on the canine immune system below.

Canine immune system and the relation to disease including seizures and cancer in dogs

There is also a good list of the various immune mediated conditions that can be possible below.

Bichon Frise Club of America | Health Resource Center | Articles: Definition of Autoimmune Disease


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

nadinejane said:


> Hi All,
> 
> It was a hair test done by the natural medicine man via facebook hes a doctor in bioregulatory medicine & homeotherapeutics.
> 
> ...


Now you have said that then Im sceptical. Ive got dogs with endocrine problems and Im actually going through a load of endocrinology tests myself
and so far everything is based on proper specialist laboratory blood tests and specific endocrinology blood tests some of which I still have to have done, and an MRI on the pituitary and hypothalamus.

Would be interested though on the details of the test and how they come to the conclusions of the finding he has made.


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> The hypothalamus and Parathyroids are part of the endocrine system.
> Everything starts in the hypothalamus with production of things like corticotropin releasing hormone and thyrotropin releasing hormone and others. That then goes down to the pituitary gland where other hormones are released for various things, like adrenocorticotrophic hormone ACTH which goes to the ardrenal glands that then produce cortisol amongst other things,
> Thyroid secreting hormone which goes down to the Thyroid to tell it to produce the various thyroid hormones. There are others too but just to name a few.
> 
> ...


We have used is it bob johnson spot on hope Ive got it right. Thanks for all this


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Now you have said that then Im sceptical. Ive got dogs with endocrine problems and Im actually going through a load of endocrinology tests myself
> and so far everything is based on proper specialist laboratory blood tests and specific endocrinology blood tests some of which I still have to have done, and an MRI on the pituitary and hypothalamus.
> 
> Would be interested though on the details of the test and how they come to the conclusions of the finding he has made.


Maybe I should ask him he's included a phone number for me to call him on if I want to ask anything to do with the results. Feel like a right idiot now but wanted to try solve poor ronnies itching X


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## nadinejane (Jan 22, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> Why do people go to witch doctors and shamans?
> 
> I just find it unbelievable how easy it is to part people from their money?
> 
> ...


It's nothing to do with that. Like I said he was recommended by a few people on a page that I'm on, I currently am not in a financial situation to get these tests done through a proper vets we are with the pdsa and all they keep doing is giving us steroids.

I did it because I thought it might help my dog. If I really knew it was chucking money away do you think I would have done it???


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> *Why do people go to witch doctors and shamans?*
> 
> I just find it unbelievable how easy it is to part people from their money?
> 
> ...


Desperation.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

nadinejane said:


> Maybe I should ask him he's included a phone number for me to call him on if I want to ask anything to do with the results. Feel like a right idiot now but wanted to try solve poor ronnies itching X


Some alternative therapies can have merit, there are some vets that have trained as conventional vets and practiced and then gone on to become alternative therapy vets, so they have both a grounding in scientific conventional veterinary practice as well as studying further and qualifying in alternative medicine, in which case that's different.

As you say, when your stuck between a rock and a hard place and don't know how to help your dog and finances are tight, then sometimes in desperation you look for help within your means in hope. Im just lucky because both me and the dogs are insured. I certainly dread to think what mines coming too certainly way beyond what I could afford otherwise. So don't beat yourself up,
your obviously not the first and you likely wont be the last.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

My cat has a flea allergy and was put on low dose steroids but I don't like them long term. I bought a product from this website to help soothe itchy skin. Its mainly for dogs so you might like a look

Petnat Natural Healthcare Products for Dogs


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I do feel for you. These charlatans prey on people who are only trying to do their best for their pets. You are not stupid or gullible - these people have it down to a fine art and can sound extremely convincing.

I know I get on a lot of peoples t*ts here when I bang on and on about alternative medicine! but this is the reason I do. People are taken advantage of.



I do hope you get this sorted out. There are tons of good people on here with lots of good advice.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> I second this - an allergy blood test isn't cheap but it's not thousands. Usually £200-300.
> 
> Don't bother with blood tests for food, though. Only a food trial can diagnose a food allergy. Environmental allergens - definitely.


my friend's dog had an allergy test that identified food. Poor dog is quite sore a lot of the time.

I just looked up apoquel tablets on viovet to get an idea of price and I see there are manufacturing difficulties and they are not available/in very short supply.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Blitz said:


> my friend's dog had an allergy test that identified food. Poor dog is quite sore a lot of the time.


Blood tests do exist that supposedly identify food allergens. I know vets who use them but I won't. I have never read anything (other than marketing stuff from the makers of the test) that has a good word to say for them. Allergy tests aren't cheap and I don't want to waste people's money.



Blitz said:


> I just looked up apoquel tablets on viovet to get an idea of price and I see there are manufacturing difficulties and they are not available/in very short supply.


I know, it's gutting.  They completely underestimated demand. We had a bunch of letters from the company last week that we're supposed to give to clients whose dogs have started on it, explaining why they now can't have it for a while.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Just a quick q as I know a few of the experts are here ATM .
That holistic vet says he can/will do acupuncture for pets. I thought you was only allowed to do acupuncture on domestic animals if you had already qualified as a vet also?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

babycham2002 said:


> Just a quick q as I know a few of the experts are here ATM .
> That holistic vet says he can/will do acupuncture for pets. I thought you was only allowed to do acupuncture on domestic animals if you had already qualified as a vet also?


You have to be a vet. If he is, strange how he does not have any letters relating to any veterinary qualifications after his name. Plus you need to be a MRCVS to legally practice, and he does not have those letters after his name.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

That's him - lots of postnominals but nothing veterinary.

Mark Pooley:-
FIDiagE, FRSPH, PG Dip. Bioregulatory Medicine and Homeotherapuetics, MBRCP, MBSBM, MSocHAT, MIACE

That's me:

>I removed my identity from this post - trolls about you see<

His site also states this:
_
RE: ANIMAL TESTING.
This Hair Test is not intended, nor should it be regarded, as veterinary medical advice. Before administering any course of therapy to your pet, you should consult your vet. It is your vet's function to diagnose your pet's medical problem and prescribe the appropriate medicine, dosage, and course of therapy._


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## astra (Sep 27, 2010)

I had the hair testing done for my mum's dog by Mark Pooley, it came up with a whole host of problems. I showed Poco's vet who said there is no scientific evidence to the hair testing. He then took bloods for allergy testing and they came back that Poco has allergies to 2 different types of storage mites and dust mites. We are now waiting for a vaccine to be made up for him. 

In the meantime he is on a steroid every other day, and an Apoquel every day, thankfully I've got a 3 month supply. 

I've just started him on Nutriment raw, Just Duck at the moment, to make sure he has no food allergies, to help with the storage mites, and what bit of kibble that's left has all gone in the freezer.

It's been a long and painful process getting to this point, so the hair test was out of desperation.

I'm just hoping that the vaccine is going to help, and the poor boy can live life without a cone stuck round his head.

Just to add that the hair test didn't pick up on Poco's allergies to dust and storage mites, but he also has a problem with his Hypothalamus and pituitary gland.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

You usually find at people offering these "tests" also sell you all sorts of rubbish to cure the "problems" they have identified.

One of my friends, an intelligent graduate, went to see a "nutritionist" who diagnosed multiple allergies (including some which don't actually exist!) and them sold her £200 worth of "supplements" and a follow up appointment at a further "reduced price" of £60.

As is usual in these circumstances, she didn't actually have any real symptoms before she went, just a vague feeling of unwell ness (the term "worried well" comes to mind). 

There is a whole industry set up to relieve people of their money.


It really pis*es me off!


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> You usually find at people offering these "tests" also sell you all sorts of rubbish to cure the "problems" they have identified.
> 
> One of my friends, an intelligent graduate, went to see a "nutritionist" who diagnosed multiple allergies (including some which don't actually exist!) and them sold her £200 worth of "supplements" and a follow up appointment at a further "reduced price" of £60.
> 
> ...


 in the old west they'd sell you snake oil bit more intricate operation their running nowadays lol.


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## astra (Sep 27, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> You usually find at people offering these "tests" also sell you all sorts of rubbish to cure the "problems" they have identified.
> 
> One of my friends, an intelligent graduate, went to see a "nutritionist" who diagnosed multiple allergies (including some which don't actually exist!) and them sold her £200 worth of "supplements" and a follow up appointment at a further "reduced price" of £60.
> 
> ...


The cost was £35 which included a remedy to rebalance the body, and special delivery. So really, it sounds great value for money, and so many people on the facebook page swear their animals have been helped, so it wasn't something I went into completely blind for Mum's dog.

Some of the findings I did think was quite spot on, as Poco was on a very strict diet, but one of the food allergies identified was salmon, and he was allowed Yumega plus which contains Salmon, I've got leather sofas, which was identified as an allergy, as was cotton, and of course he sleeps on the beds which are cotton duvet covers, and we put cotton socks on him to prevent the biting, so of course I thought that was the reason he was still scratching, and biting his feet any chance he can.

The other was under the heading of Circulatory Disturbances:- symptoms of muscle tightness and discomfort. Again I did think wowww, as Poco has luxating patella in both of his back legs.

But when the blood tests at the vets come back, and the dust and storage mites hadn't been listed by the hair test, I was quite disappointed, as I do like to believe natural medicine can work, along side scientific. But perhaps not incase.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm sorry, but these tests are useless.

The results are full of sciency sounding nonsense. For example "rebalancing the body" is completely meaningless. 


Trust your vet. That way you get what you pay for.


Good luck with it all!


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## astra (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks, I'm just hoping the immunisation vaccine works.

My Mum was given Poco, a Bichon Frise last year in the April, to start with he was fine. His last owner had a marriage breakdown, and was working long hours, so Poco was left alone for up to 12 hours a day, and his food was just piled into a bowl (Bakers)  

So my Mum agreed to home him, as we thought he would be great company for her, as she is on Kidney Dialysis, and I've got a Bichon so we know the breed.

Come late August last year, all hell let loose and Poco just started licking, biting and scratching himself. I had already changed to his food to Acana the same as my dog, so thought it perhaps was harvest mites, as my mum lives surrounded by fields and the tractors were up and down her lane. But sadly he didn't get better, if anything by Christmas it was at the point that she couldn't even have her dog living with her as he became so vicious through pain. 

In the New Year we changed vets, and since then he's has skin scrapes, and his feet completely shaved, his nail beds were badly infected, so a course of antibiotics cleared up the infection. To cut a long story short, he has come along way in the last 6 months, he's a lot better natured and will now enjoy cuddles, if he does get chance to get down on his feet then he is still quite nasty when trying to stop him, and he also has food aggression, but I'm guessing this is from being left for long periods of time. 

All in all it's been a nightmare, I feel for my Mum as she loves her dog, but can't have him living full time with her just yet as he requires a lot of attention, and like she says, she's high maintence herself with her illness, so I've been having him with me and taking him to visit. 

Hopefully one day Poco will be cured, and he can be reunited with Mum, as he would be the perfect little companion for her.


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## cassie53 (Nov 18, 2010)

Hi,

I feel for you, it must be really difficult when you are short of money and you know your dog needs help. We can tell you love your dog and you are doing all you can - keep it up! There are many people out there who would not bother. I am surprised with the PDSA being so unhelpful - if they cannot give you treatment at least try to help with information!


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## cassie53 (Nov 18, 2010)

Hi Nadinejane

Hi,

I feel for you, it must be really difficult when you are short of money and you know your dog needs help. We can tell you love your dog and you are doing all you can - keep it up! There are many people out there who would not bother. I am surprised with the PDSA being so unhelpful - if they cannot give you treatment at least try to help with information!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

astra said:


> The other was under the heading of Circulatory Disturbances:- symptoms of muscle tightness and discomfort. Again I did think wowww, as Poco has luxating patella in both of his back legs.


Bit weird though, as luxating patella is absolutely nothing to do with 'circulatory disturbances'. It's all a bit vague, isn't it?

By the same logic I could have symptoms of muscle tightness and discomfort. My neck is a bit sore sometimes, after all. And my knees click when I walk upstairs.

The 'results' are always vague enough to apply to almost everyone in some way.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Shoshannah said:


> Bit weird though, as luxating patella is absolutely nothing to do with 'circulatory disturbances'. It's all a bit vague, isn't it?
> 
> By the same logic I could have symptoms of muscle tightness and discomfort. My neck is a bit sore sometimes, after all. And my knees click when I walk upstairs.
> 
> The 'results' are always vague enough to apply to almost everyone in some way.


It's similar to "cold reading" that so called psychics do.


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## astra (Sep 27, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> It's similar to "cold reading" that so called psychics do.


That's basically what Poco's vet said.


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