# Bella's puppies [pic's]



## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

scrol down for photobucket link.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Can't see the pics it keeps saying invalid attachment specified.


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

i know im crap at this i will try again.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Wouldn't have been so bad but i got a bad gateway notice come up and i couldn't get back on the forum.


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

Pictures by 371195 - Photobucket

sorry about that it happened to me too.
I hope this works.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Very cute

What breed are they?


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Now that's much better,they are rather cute.


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

cavajak x shitzu


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Was it an accidental breeding?


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

why


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Apart from the fact that they are basically mongrel puppies, I can't see any point in breeding that combination of dog.

Sorry that's my opinion sorry if it's offended.


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

No, dont care what you say. :thumbup:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I can't see any point in breeding that combination of dog.


Money?
Because they want to experience the joys of breeding? 
Because they want their children to experience the joys of breeding?

Any website against byb breeding will give a fuller list.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Bit sad, really.


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

And theres me thinking people on here would like to see some pictures of puppies no matter what mix or breed.
And you call yourselves dog lovers....:nono:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Beautiful puppies Gayle. You will have your hands full in a few weeks when they are getting around


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

gayle38 said:


> And theres me thinking people on here would like to see some pictures of puppies no matter what mix or breed.
> And you call yourselves dog lovers....:nono:


The problem being that there are so many mongrels born accidently and in rescue that to breed more intentionally seems very irresponsible.

Plus they are obviously unhealth tested and unproven dogs in every way possible.

What was your reason for breeding??


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> The problem being that there are so many mongrels born accidently and in rescue that to breed more intentionally seems very irresponsible.
> 
> Plus they are obviously unhealth tested and unproven dogs in every way possible.
> 
> What was your reason for breeding??


Its not only mongrels in rescue centres. most are staffs.
My puppies will be going to vetted homes only as family pets.
Why does anyone breed? dont give me "improve the line" "breed" ect.


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

Due to the over posting on the subject of the so called 'Designer Dogs', cross breeds, mongrels whatever you wish to call them on the forum, The Moderators have felt that its time to put an end to these threads, which are not only repetitive, and go nowhere, but are upsetting the members that are owners of these dogs.

We know that there are pros and cons to owning a dog such as these, as it is with any dog whether pedigree or otherwise.

We ask all our members to refrain from starting any more threads on this subject as it is only causing upset and arguments, and in some cases members withdrawing there membership from the forum. Something i think you would agree, none of us want.


If you feel inclined to abuse this new rule, you will be given a warning and an Infraction, continued abuse with result with a permanent ban.

This also includes the threads about backyard breeders in both cats and dogs, we all know they are out there and that some of us at sometime have been there, done it, got the t-shirt - but this is where it all stops all dogs are dogs and all cats are cats.

We don't mind people talking about their pets or what cross they are but don't go anywhere towards knocking the cross etc. No longer allowed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes the moderators do feel very strongly on the subject and there will be no 2nd chances.
Thank you for your cooperation on this subject
The Forum Team


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

and so with that you are basically calling yourself a back yard breeder or puppy farmer!

anyway you started the thread.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

gayle38 said:


> Its not only mongrels in rescue centres. most are staffs.
> My puppies will be going to vetted homes only as family pets.
> Why does anyone breed? dont give me "improve the line" "breed" ect.


why not give you to improve the breed as that is why most do breed!

alot of thought and care goes into picking the right match for their bitch to correct her flaws, you obviously know nothing of breeding so should have stayed away.

and its not just staffs in rescues.


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

I know alot about breeding, my mother bred and showed cavaliers for many years. and yes they were KC reg. She had a bitch qualified for crufts once.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

gayle38 said:


> I know alot about breeding, my mother bred and showed cavaliers for many years. and yes they were KC reg. _She had a bitch qualified for crufts once_.


PMSL - even though I don't show, I know that qualifying for crufts is not _that_ difficult.


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

Like you said you dont show, say that to someone who does. Im sure they will tell you otherwise.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

gayle38 said:


> Like you said you dont show, say that to someone who does. Im sure they will tell you otherwise.


Not if your good at it.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

gayle38 said:


> Like you said you dont show, say that to someone who does. Im sure they will tell you otherwise.


I said _I_ don't show. What I didn't say was that I know a lot who do


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

op you cannot know much about showing either with a 'cavajack' not even a breed!!!!!:mad2:


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## kate_7590 (Feb 28, 2009)

What are the pups 'breed' going to be...shihcavajack???

Oh dear...


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## BumbleFluff (Jul 23, 2011)

*Head-Desk* Why are people so fecking stupid these days :mad2: :mad2:


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

kate_7590 said:


> What are the pups 'breed' going to be...shihcavajack???
> 
> Oh dear...


cavajacket ?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Gayle....I would ask for the thread to be closed if I were you. I am afraid it wont get any better and I dont want to see you get upset. 

The pups are here now so I dont see the point in raking over the rights and wrongs of it but you will get many opposed to deliberate crossbreeding. Its just the way it is and despite the forum not allowing discussion over crossbreeds because of the upset it causes to crossbreed owners....that rule is likely to be less stringent on a breeding thread. Maybe you could ask for the thread to be moved to a photo/gallery section?

Hope this post is taken in ths way it was meant....to be helpful.... not to put anyone down at all....not Gayle or the people opposed to crossbreeding x


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

The pups are beautiful.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

kate_7590 said:


> What are the pups 'breed' going to be...shihcavajack???





Gertrude said:


> cavajacket ?


Mongrels?


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

Originally Posted by kate_7590 
What are the pups 'breed' going to be...shihcavajack??? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertrude 
cavajacket ? 


No there not going to be a breed, dont you lot know anything
There going to be beautiful puppys that will go to loving homes as pets.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

gayle38 said:


> Originally Posted by kate_7590
> What are the pups 'breed' going to be...shihcavajack???
> 
> Quote:
> ...


Does that mean you are getting them spayed and neutered before they go???

Or are you putting a contract in place that they are not going to be breed and you need proof of neutering and spaying?????


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

petloverjo, I think youre getting bred & breed mixed up.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

PetloverJo said:


> Does that mean you are getting them spayed and neutered before they go???
> 
> Or are you putting a contract in place that they are not going to be breed and you need proof of neutering and spaying?????


Please read carefully before you have a go at the op!! She said "they are not going to be a breed" not that they aren't going to breed!! :001_cool:


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

I think the pups are very cute! X



I have to say I used to enjoy this forum, then had a year off of all of you because you were so opinionated and bitchy! Seems things haven't changed much! :mad2:


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

Can I just say also, a lot of the dog owners on here including me, have cross breeds and I'm sure you didn't all go and 'rescue' them from kennels or off the streets, I have followed over the years many people buying and rearing their xbred pups on here and getting oohs and ahhhs and being given people's blessings!!!! So why is it that suddenly pedigrees are the only dogs that are allowed to be bred with everyone's blessings?!?! :mad2::mad2:

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with a good old litter of mongrels being bred and found loving homes! :thumbup::thumbup: :thumbup:


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

Matrix/Logan said:


> Can I just say also, a lot of the dog owners on here including me, have cross breeds and I'm sure you didn't all go and 'rescue' them from kennels or off the streets, I have followed over the years many people buying and rearing their xbred pups on here and getting oohs and ahhhs and being given people's blessings!!!! So why is it that suddenly pedigrees are the only dogs that are allowed to be bred with everyone's blessings?!?! :mad2::mad2:
> 
> I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with a good old litter of mongrels being bred and found loving homes! :thumbup::thumbup: :thumbup:


HERE HERE, im going off this forum rapidly,with over opinionated people who think that they know everything.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

button50 said:


> HERE HERE, im going off this forum rapidly,with over opinionated people who think that they know everything.


Just ignore them, there's far more nice members than those that feel the need to shove their opinions down everyones throat.

Just been having a lovely chat with Gayle via pm. 
Nice lady


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

How on earth would you begin to assess any conformation issues that might arise from this sort of cross bred litter? We are only just getting to the bottom of health issues with pedigrees, and the issues with cross breeds are shown to be just as complicated, and that includes how a dog is built. 

Sorry, but I think it's highly irresponsible to breed a litter like this, and then shout victim just because they're not pedigrees. All puppies are cute, but look in the eyes of a dog being put to sleep, and tell me that's cute, no matter what breed or cross breed.


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## button50 (Apr 16, 2012)

rona said:


> Just ignore them, there's far more nice members than those that feel the need to shove their opinions down everyones throat.
> 
> Just been having a lovely chat with Gayle via pm.
> Nice lady


Thanks Rona, i come on here for tips and photos and all i seem to read is people claiming they know better than others. Nice to know there are more interesting people on here.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

button50 said:


> Thanks Rona, i come on here for tips and photos and all i seem to read is people claiming they know better than others. Nice to know there are more interesting people on here.


I only venture into the breeding and training sections a few times a year


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Very cute photos.

Facebook, gumtree, pet sites are full of staffy, staffy crosses, unhealth tested litters, crazy cross breeds all because 'people can' no reason for it, other than to have cute pups and sell them to friends and via the Internet for £50! 

I can completely understand why people are on the op's case as a lot are conscientious decent health testing breeders with sales contracts, endorsements etc.

I don't think anybody has posted they know more than anybody else they just don't agree with your decision to breed unhealth tested mongrels that can be found ten a penny in rescues and selling on the Internet, the pups will go to like minded people, who will most likely stud & have litters themselves


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## caitlinwade (Jan 8, 2012)

awh! they are really cute! mongrels are actually quite a lot better in my eyes, they done have as many medical issues and they are very unique but yes, i do still love pure bred dogs and i myself have 2 purebred kittens.. i cant say anything haha


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

caitlinwade said:


> awh! they are really cute! mongrels are actually quite a lot better in my eyes, they done have as many medical issues and they are very unique but yes, i do still love pure bred dogs and i myself have 2 purebred kittens.. i cant say anything haha


What a silly thing to say, so no mongrel has any medical issues?

If they are crossed with unhealthy dogs then yes you are going to get medical issues just more undefinable ones!!


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Backyard Breeder she may be, *but puppy farmer is being rather harsh*. Yes there are plenty of backyard breeders. It doesn't mean that the pups won't be cared for.

Bella's pups on the photo's look lovely and look like they are being well looked after. They don't look like they are in a barn on a bed of straw with a heat lamp. (My KC registered cocker was! No wonder he has social issues) Yes some of you may be saying that I'm an hypocrite.

Gayle does not deserve to be called a puppy farmer. I still don't agree with the mix but if they are being looked after properly and get wormed and flea-ed and homes vetted then that's better than some.

I can also see the point of the breeder they pay to have their dogs health tested and pay a stud fee. Then they find these designer un health tested breeds for sale for more than they are selling their pups for.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

PetloverJo said:


> Backyard Breeder she may be, *but puppy farmer is being rather harsh*. Yes their are plenty of backyard breeders. It doesn't mean that the pups won't be cared for.
> 
> Bella's pups on the photo's look lovely and look like they are being well looked after. They don't look like they are in a barn on a bed of straw with a heat lamp. (My KC registered cocker was! No wonder he has social issues) Yes some of you may be saying that I'm an hypocrite.
> 
> ...


Ah I didn't call her puppy farmer, she quoted the part about not mentioning BYB'S or puppy farms and i just responded with you must be one of these to quote that reference.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2012)

Well all I`m saying is you lot are being very harsh. I really do feel for Gayle, she was just sharing pictures of her pups and I bet she wished she never bothered. Yes they might not be purebreds, but it looks like they are very well looked after. And if Gayle is only letting them go to a home where they will be looked after well and encourage the new owners not to breed the pups, I don`t see what the problem is. Shelter dogs aren`t for everyone including myself, so as long as the pups get a good home and are well looked after then I really don`t see what the problem is. I think making up breed names was very rude, because Gayle even said they aren`t a breed, just mutts. Purebreds are just as likely to land in a shelter as a mutt is, I must admit I see more staffies, JRT and rotties in shelters than mutts. Not saying anyone here is right or wrong, I just basically wanted to say accept the pups are here now, nothing can fix that and let Gayle breath for a minute  Cute pups by the way Gayle 

@emmaviolet- I think PetloverJo meant that if 2 mutt parents that are healthy dogs with little health issues are crossed the pups could well be healthier than a purebred puppy. Same with purebred pups really. It depends on the dogs that are selected for breeding IMHO. :thumbup:


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Very cute photos.
> 
> Facebook, gumtree, pet sites are full of staffy, staffy crosses, unhealth tested litters, crazy cross breeds all because 'people can' no reason for it, other than to have cute pups and sell them to friends and via the Internet for £50!
> 
> ...


Youre jumping to lots of conclusions here...


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

gayle38 said:


> Youre jumping to lots of conclusions here...


Mmm I beg to differ (did you start up a waiting list like most breeders do? If so I retract all conclusion jumping points as all your pups will already have well vetted expectant homes) please feel free to enlighten me as to where I jumped to conclusions, I genuinely would be interested to find out.

Just maybe you have found an oober niche market of puppy buyer, looking for the type of cross you have chosen to produce?...buyers conscientious when it comes to finding a fastidious breeder of quality and well bred mongrels?

(Admittedly crossing with the shitzu was a good move as you can bump the price up by maybe £100)

Really hope you don't end up punting them on the Facebook pet sites/ papers/ school playground/ friend of friends etc & find people that have genuinely been researching the right dog for there family.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I am not saying I agree with deliberate crossbreeding but I think some are being overly harsh on Gayle.

I look at it this way.....the pups are here....like it or not....Gayle is definitely not ignorant when it comes to breeding...caring for and loving her dogs...so I have no doubt that she will search for loving homes and hopefully will give her puppy buyers support and make sure she keeps in touch.

A dog being pedigree only shows a dogs breeding...it doesnt guarantee a dog is healthy nor that the breeder is ethical...nor anything else tbh. 

I wish Gayle luck with the pups and hope she come to PF if she needs any help as the pups get older or any support when the pups are being rehomed....which can be an upsetting time for any breeder.....whether the pups are pedigee or cross most caring breeders feel a great sense of loss as the pups leave for their new lives....I dont think anything Gayle has said would have us thinking she is anything other than caring and that loves her dogs very much.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Mmm I beg to differ (did you start up a waiting list like most breeders do? If so I retract all conclusion jumping points as all your pups will already have well vetted expectant homes) please feel free to enlighten me as to where I jumped to conclusions, I genuinely would be interested to find out.
> 
> Just maybe you have found an oober niche market of puppy buyer, looking for the type of cross you have chosen to produce?...buyers conscientious when it comes to finding a fastidious breeder of quality and well bred mongrels?
> 
> ...


AND

Why should she have to answer any of these questions?

Just to stop you thinking badly of her?

I don't think so


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

rona said:


> AND
> 
> Why should she have to answer any of these questions?
> 
> ...


Why even bother with coming onto a forum :arf:

Most people are pretty up front with the real facts


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Why even bother with coming onto a forum :arf:


To show off her much loved pups ask advice and chat about her pets 
It's what a lot come on here for


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

rona said:


> To show off her much loved pups ask advice and chat about her pets
> It's what a lot come on here for


Sorry thought it was for discussing dog breeding, my mistake.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I think some members dont realise that criticism can be harsh in the breeding section. That was why I suggested earlier that Gayle have the thread moved. As soon as I saw the thread I thought... Oh Dear. ..because I guessed Gayle would get a tough time. Looking back..maybe I should of pm'd her but I didnt think. Anyway if the criticism doesnt hurt her I suppose its not a problem. She has stood up for herself pretty well


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Sorry thought it was for discussing dog breeding, my mistake.


That's what she's been doing in all of her threads


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

chichi said:


> I think some members dont realise that criticism can be harsh in the breeding section. That was why I suggested earlier that Gayle have the thread moved. As soon as I saw the thread I thought... Oh Dear. ..because I guessed Gayle would get a tough time. Looking back..maybe I should of pm'd her but I didnt think. Anyway if the criticism doesnt hurt her I suppose its not a problem. She has stood up for herself pretty well


Yeah maybe not the best place...I wasn't even harsh :aureola: lol


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

gayle38 said:


> cavajak x shitzu


Photobucket is incredibly hard on my computer so I've only glanced but its been lovely, lovely, looking at the pups.

With a Shih Tzu on one side I am going to imagine they are mostly going to be wirecoated. With the Cavajak carrying the long coat allele you might also end up with one with a fully bearded long coat.

Is Mum the Cavajak?

This is a classic old postcard of Cavajack puppies (yes, breeders have taken it upon themselves to mix these types for a long time). Its a combination I find incredibly attractive.












> Mmm I beg to differ (did you start up a waiting list like most breeders do?


Where do you get the idea that 'most' breeders start up a waiting list. I know a TON of breeders of small dogs (pure and mixed) and I'm going to beg to differ with the suggestion that MOST start up a waiting list.

Many do not and for many great reasons.

With regard to this litter, personality wise mixbred pups are varied. A SMART breeder waits until the pups are a bit older and determines personalities before advertising them and vetting for the right match for a home.

CC


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

chichi said:


> I look at it this way.....the pups are here....like it or not....Gayle is definitely not ignorant when it comes to breeding...caring for and loving her dogs.


I have to beg to differ with you, she is clearly VERY ignorant to breeding as she put mongrels together for no particular reason.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Yeah maybe not the best place...I wasn't even harsh :aureola: lol


Mmmmmm.....you were a tad harsh 

I took it you were suggesting she was in it for the money and any breeder will tell you that money can only be made if you cut corners. Pedigree or Mongrel....the cost of rearing the litter...vet fees...worming meds and so on....all the same just no KC registration fees.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> I have to beg to differ with you, she is clearly VERY ignorant to breeding as she put mongrels together for no particular reason.


I would suggest that putting purebreds together for many stated reasons is much more ignorant than putting mongrels together. . . and you are assuming she had 'no particular reason'. Her reasons do not have to match your, or anyone else's, approval.

Do you want to argue the scientific basis and the genetics behind these opinions of mine? I seem to be a bit scrappy today and am up for it.

CC


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I have to beg to differ with you, she is clearly VERY ignorant to breeding as she put mongrels together for no particular reason.


Hi EmmaV. I probably didnt make myself clear. I meant with regard posts Ive seen previously where Gayle appears clued up on whelping and general breeding queries asked by other members


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

chichi said:


> Mmmmmm.....you were a tad harsh
> 
> I took it you were suggesting she was in it for the money and any breeder will tell you that money can only be made if you cut corners. Pedigree or Mongrel....the cost of rearing the litter...vet fees...worming meds and so on....all the same just no KC registration fees.


or stud fees either!!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> I would suggest that putting purebreds together for many stated reasons is much more ignorant than putting mongrels together. . . and you are assuming she had 'no particular reason'. Her reasons do not have to match your, or anyone else's, approval.
> 
> Do you want to argue the scientific basis and the genetics behind these opinions of mine? I seem to be a bit scrappy today and am up for it.
> 
> CC


Dont really want a row, bit busy today but mixing many breeds means there is a chance they can be exposed to all the health problems from all the breeds.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> Dont really want a row, bit busy today but mixing many breeds means there is a chance they can be exposed to all the health problems from all the breeds.


EVERY breed and EVERY litter produced has a chance of being exposed to ALL the health problems found in dogs as these problems do not just lurk in individual breeds. EVERY breed has them lurking. Some have identified problems that are more prevalent but that does not mean the other ones aren't there too.

Every litter in EVERY breed is susceptible to patella luxation, epilepsy, cancer, eye problems, heart problems . . . etc. and when looking is done we even find syringomyelia in almost all the small ones. It is PREVALENCE that we worry about and it has been proven many times over that the odds of PREVALENCE increases when we are breeding related dogs.

So what health problems are you more worried about with regard to mixing breeds than when breeders breed purebred litters?

-----------

I might have missed the mention but how many lovely pups were there and what were the colors of the batch?

I have a particular interest in color genetics and will have to try to access the photos through my son's computer, but I'd love a run down from those in the know.

I remember glancing at at least one parti sable and another beautiful solid sable from a tricolor mum . . . just two pups I thought. I'm curious if the dad might have carried the black/tan allele. He obviously carried parti. If there were just two we won't be able to tell as he passed his sable on to both this time.

CC


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> or stud fees either!!


Some people will fork out for stud fees to produce crossbreeds. Ive had people approach me for stud services that are willing to pay a relatively high fee to use my boy with their bitch. I dont stud my boy out but its not for lack of offers from owners of all sorts of breeds.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> EVERY breed and EVERY litter produced has a chance of being exposed to ALL the health problems found in dogs as these problems do not just lurk in individual breeds. EVERY breed has them lurking. Some have identified problems that are more prevalent but that does not mean the other ones aren't there too.
> 
> Every litter in EVERY breed is susceptible to patella luxation, epilepsy, cancer, eye problems, . . . etc.
> 
> So what health problems are you more worried about with regard to mixing breeds than when breeders breed purebred litter


Well if it is genetically so much better to cross the breeds why, if they are exposed to as many problems as pedigree/purebred dogs?


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

chichi said:


> Mmmmmm.....you were a tad harsh
> 
> I took it you were suggesting she was in it for the money and any breeder will tell you that money can only be made if you cut corners. Pedigree or Mongrel....the cost of rearing the litter...vet fees...worming meds and so on....all the same just no KC registration fees.


If its not for the money what's the reason behind the litter? Cute cuddly pups just because she could.

No respectable Shizu stud owner would of allowed there dog to be used on a cavajack simples! So she must of gone to a less scrupulous route  be it friend, family or other


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> Well if it is genetically so much better to cross the breeds why, if they are exposed to as many problems as pedigree/purebred dogs?


Are you asking why cross the breeds? (I also did not say it was necessarily genetically better . . . although it CAN be).

Why do we eat muffins for breakfast one day and choose cereal the next?

Breeders have ALWAYS used their own discretion to decide what to breed and what to cross, and that is how our breeds were developed and how dogs HEALTHILY evolved beside man . . . until the umbrella registries came around in the late 1800s and early 1900s and, in order to make their business have value, promoted the idea that purebred breeding was the more 'correct' way to go. The then enlisted breed clubs in order to help them do so as well.

So the 'why do it' is as varied as the breeder who decides to do it.

I will not sit on a high horse and decide a breeder is right/wrong for doing so as long as a breeder is careful about the dogs they use and their pairings and is vetting homes and placing with care as well.



> If its not for the money what's the reason behind the litter? Cute cuddly pups just because she could.
> 
> No respectable Shizu stud owner would of allowed there dog to be used on a cavajack simples! So she must of gone to a less scrupulous route be it friend, family or other


What does it matter to you what the reason is behind the litter? Do you imagine that breeders need approval of others and groups of others for their plans? There looks to be two pups . . . a great money maker then.:rollseyes:.

About your declaration about 'respectable' stud owners . . . just cuz you say so doesn't make it the truth.

CC


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

comfortcreature said:


> Are you asking why cross the breeds? (I also did not say it was necessarily genetically better . . . although it CAN be).
> 
> Why do we eat muffins for breakfast one day and choose cereal the next?
> 
> ...


Your posts seem to be standing up for someone just for the sake of it


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

I mentioned I'm scrappy today.

Your posts seem to be about condemnation of a breeders choices that are different than what you'd make . . . just for the sake of it.

CC


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

comfortcreature said:


> I mentioned I'm scrappy today.
> 
> Your posts seem to be about condemnation of a breeders choices that are different than what you'd make . . . just for the sake of it.
> 
> CC


It just smacks of stay at home mum pimping out the pets that's all 

Kittens, pups etc

Seems to me forum's are where we can all make our own judgments and come to our own conclusions  nobody is right or wrong...but I know what I think with the given facts & piccys


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

And your posts smack of purebred snobbery.

I was raised to believe that until the facts are known . . . assumptions and condemnations are to be withheld. It is only the tiniest courtesy.

So far there has not been one fact presented that merited the assumptions and sarcastic condemnations on this thread, even such as this last post and the use of the word 'pimping'.

Did the breeder of your dog 'pimp' her girl? You breed . . . does that make you a 'pimp' as well?

CC


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> It just smacks of stay at home mum pimping out the pets that's all
> 
> Kittens, pups etc
> 
> Seems to me forum's are where we can all make our own judgments and come to our own conclusions  nobody is right or wrong...but I know what I think with the given facts & piccys


Haha, pimping out the pets!!!!


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## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

Maisymoomin, I'm glad you like my photos. 
As the pups get older I will post some more.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

gayle38 said:


> Maisymoomin, I'm glad you like my photos.
> As the pups get older I will post some more.


Your pups are lovely 

***

Purebred snobbery all the way :smilewinkgrin:


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Your pups look healthy and well cared for, which is more than I think we can say for a large majority of puppies being churned out these days. As for crossing why not? There's surely enough badly bred pedigrees out there these days and I love mongrels and am proud to own one and my next will be too. Good old fashioned mutts.  And well done for vetting homes and finding them loving homes, I'm sure in the future you would take them back if needed, which again is better than most.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I really don't think any of the "opposition" are going to get a rise out of Gayle.....hard as they might try

As for pimping out the pets; that's a bit low, have to say:hand:


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

If we look at it from a human point of view then on my birth certificate I should have non active on it, as I have a family history of diabetes and heart disease.

No matter how much people argue on here, these pups are here end of story.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

chichi said:


> I really don't think any of the "opposition" are going to get a rise out of Gayle.....hard as they might try
> 
> As for pimping out the pets; that's a bit low, have to say:hand:


Silence speaks volumes 

I don't think anyone is after a rise out of Gale, she knows what she's done, she knows all the facts


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

PetloverJo said:


> If we look at it from a human point of view then on my birth certificate I should have non active on it, as I have a family history of diabetes and heart disease.
> 
> No matter how much people argue on here, these pups are here end of story.


I have bad knees and need glasses. My parents were obviously very irresponsible to breed me.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> I have to beg to differ with you, she is clearly VERY ignorant to breeding as she put mongrels together for no particular reason.


Very ignorant?!?! So the people that 'developed' your breed must have been 'very ignorant' too eh?! 

I think she has been far from ignorant and has obviously made an informed choice to breed these two dogs and produce this litter with the knowledge also of her mothers breeding history so how can you possibly call Gayle ignorant?!?! :mad2::scared:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Silence speaks volumes
> 
> I don't think anyone is after a rise out of Gale, she knows what she's done, she knows all the facts


It does.
She doesn't need your approval :thumbup:


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

rona said:


> It does.
> She doesn't need your approval :thumbup:


Yes let's hope that's the reason


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Yes let's hope that's the reason


Having had a nice chat to her via pm, I'm sure it's true


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Couldn't care less what she breeds, but anyone who breeds ought to carry out all health tests for all breeds in the mix or they are an irresponsible byb who is no better than a puppy farmer.

Earlier in the thread, breeding for betterment of the breed/lines was mentioned, I _think_ by Gayle herself. Yes, this _*is*_ the only reason puppies should be bred, not for profit, not because you can or because they're cute. Just pop to your nearest rescue and look at the myriad unidentifiable crosses begging for homes. Bet they were really cute puppies too.

Forum rules say we ought not to be detrimental about cross breeds, but nor do I think we ought to celebrate no health tested anything being bred: positive discrimination or what! Funny how it gets turned around and how it's all ok because oh, the pictures are so cute. Big deal.

This forum is very fluffy, which of course, I like when it suits, but boy, do I love escaping to other forums where people who work in rescues and vet surgeries are allowed to say it how it is without being banned because they see at first hand the health problems, unwanted puppies and rehoming problems that are engendered by thoughtless breeding. I hope Gayle is ethical and offers a lifetime back up support service to all of her puppies' new owners, including taking back any problem dogs for the duration of their lives.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> Earlier in the thread, breeding for betterment of the breed/lines was mentioned, I think by Gayle herself. Yes, this is the only reason puppies should be bred,


One reason? And who gets to decide what that reason is? What gives these decision makers that privilege?

Please describe what 'betterment of the breed' means?

I don't believe a 'breed' can be 'bettered' in a genetically closed gene pool such as are currently operating for MOST breeds - many of them already compromised. Every closed gene pool leads to a slow demise (some faster than others) unless breeders find a way of getting new genes in.

I have seen American Cocker Spaniels absolutely phenotypically ruined as a sporting dog by those who are claiming to 'better' it. I have seen the same with Cavaliers.

By your own ideals then we should stop breeding the majority of purebred dogs in the majority of breeds altogether . . . right now . . . instead of waiting for their slow painful demise, as we are not bettering them in our current pedigree systems. EVERY single pairing made in most breeds, right now, carries with it a heightened risk of specific health related issues due to the relatedness of the ancestral dogs.

I would suggest 'the only reason' you have decided upon is not one that any purebred breeder can live up to unless and until they go back to the ORIGINAL meaning of what a 'breed' is and begin to advocate and embrace outcrossing projects within their own breeds.

Or perhaps maybe we need to recognize that striving for breed maintenance is a fantastic goal for those that want to be involved in purebred preservation. For others their goals are fine too . . . such as the original reason for the breeding of dogs. That is because humans like to have them as pets and workers.

CC


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Dear me, love the quote you wrote that misses out my word 'lines' which encompasses cross breeds, *not* just pedigrees. Again, health testing is key, not necessarily the breeding of pedigree to pedigree.

I'm aware you aren't in the UK, I know that you have also said that the majority of dogs in your area of Canada appear to be 'mutts'. However, here, we are experiencing an enormous crisis of rescue dogs, as I imagine exists also in Canada. The majority of dogs in rescue here are non health tested staffies, some of whom have (no surprise) big medical issues. Another large proportion of rescue dogs are random unidentifiable crosses, maybe accidental, maybe not. There is, as you know, a fascination with poodle crosses currently and this has spread to other breeds now so that they can be sold for silly money because of their cool names 

To breed, surely you do so in order to produce healthy, _improved_ progeny, hopefully the culmination of careful planning with sire and dam picked for their amazing conformation and stunning temperaments. This surely incorporates thorough health testing, never mind the 'breed' or lack thereof. Never mind the KC/AKC recommendations and breed standards, health is paramount, so that the dog is suitable as a pet or worker.

Outcrossing is going to be necessary in many breeds (dalmatians are benefitting now) and many breeds were outcrossed in recent history. I'm not a mad proponent of pure breeds, simply a motivated dog over who, in an ideal world, would prefer to only see health tested dogs used for breeding.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

If you check back I left the word 'lines' in the quote.

With regard to health testing . . . I refuse to make assumptions about whether it has or has not been done.

Are you making those assumptions?

What I have found to be so completely rude from many posting on this thread is that assumptions have been made and condemnations given without knowledge, SIMPLY on the fact that the pups are crossbred progeny.

I have followed many purebred litter announcement threads here and then checked the KC record to see missed health testing . . . yet questions remain unasked and the same assumptions are not made on those threads BECUZ the litter was pure. Why do you think that difference happens? When I check the KC health database and find odd results I give the purebred breeder the benefit of the doubt. Possibly the testing results aren't showing up for a reason. I give the same consideration to those that crossbreed.



> To breed, surely you do so in order to produce healthy, improved progeny, hopefully the culmination of careful planning with sire and dam picked for their amazing conformation and stunning temperaments. This surely incorporates thorough health testing, never mind the 'breed' or lack thereof. Never mind the KC/AKC recommendations and breed standards, health is paramount, so that the dog is suitable as a pet or worker.


Absolutely agree . . . and what has given you the impression that the pups produced in this cross by this breeder are not going to be an improvement?

---------

With regard to an 'enormous crises of rescue dogs' in the UK, what justifies the use of the word 'crises' to you?

The situation IS better, both in North America AND in the UK than it was two decades ago or even one. This is a url to a graph from the UK showing the downward trend from the last 20 years. - http://www.rspca.org.uk/webContent/staticImages/Microsites/Pledges/images/infographic2.png

Numbers to mull over.

There are ~8 million dogs owned in the UK. Owners are looking to find about 800,000 new dogs each year just by calculating attrition. The KC registers ~ 250,000 each year.

The last figures I have found show that across all animal welfare and the RSPCA about 200,000 are rehomed. - http://www.politicalanimal.org.uk/key-facts-and-figures/pet-animal-indicators/euthanasia-of-dogs - http://pspettags.com/blog/pets-in-the-uk-the-statistics/

There is LOTS of room to improve on the number of dogs rescued and LOTS of room for each and every adoptable rescue dog to find a home. Matches are not being made to the available homes. Why do you think that is when we KNOW that 50,000 commercially bred dogs are trafficked in from Wales, as just one source (approx. 50,000 more come in from Ireland)?

One REMIT of rescue is to influence the community and diminish intake. Another is to market their dogs. What has made rescuing a dog so undesirable or impossible that healthy dogs are euthanized while many go to commercial breeders instead? If the desire is to improve adoption numbers then THOSE areas need to be addressed . . .

I don't believe that the aim of ANY dog lover is to discourage caring people from breeding and to then send purchasers to find a dog bred by a substandard commercial breeder . . . but evidense is that customers are going there instead of to rescue. Why is that? I think before the 'breeder vilification' tactic is continued with THAT best be thought through and addressed. If it cannot be then we know that backyard breeder labelling just makes things worse for dogs. I KNOW that is what I have faced, here in Alberta, as someone involved in dogs and in rescue for 30 years plus. More and more commercial establishments cropping up proves the breeder vilification propaganda touted is not helping . . . just the opposite in fact. That needs to change.

The recession has thrown difficulty in but the crux of the rescue problem lies in the 'tough dog' crosses and that problem is a problem everywhere. It is a societal problem that we've battled with both pure and crosses for longer than I remember moving from German Shepherds to Dobermans to Rottweilers on forward to bullbreed crosses now. The problem won't be affected by declaring breed improvement as the only true aim of breeding. It is one that needs specific fixes.

_"A key reason for euthanasia is that the dog is a type banned in the U.K."_

Rescue center sets standard for animal care - Toledo Blade

_He says: "Last year we reunited over 2,000 dogs to members of the public, those dogs which came in as strays. We re-homed 3,000 dogs, just over. But, sadly, over 2,800 dogs were put to sleep."

That's around a third of the total number of dogs Battersea Dogs & Cats Home took in last year.

Of the 2,815 that were put down, 1,931 of them were healthy *but were judged to be too much of a risk to be offered* to the public for re-homing because of their temperament or behaviour.

By far the biggest single group of dogs coming into Battersea Dogs & Cats Home are bull breeds and bull breed crosses - many of them Staffordshire Bull Terrier types known as "Staffies". They account for more than half of the home's longer term residents. _

BBC - Press Office - Panorama: Battersea Dogs & Cats Home puts down record number of dogs​
With regard to 'cool names' on dogs and exorbitant prices charged for something that is a novelty . . . well isn't that what purebred breed names are all about? Is that not the same modus operandi used by those that treat their purebred dogs like products? The marketing tool used here is the 'purebred' one as they are more rare, albeit there are some 'popular' crossbreeds that can command a good price as well. Again, throwing around a disgruntlement about what a seller or buyer wants to call their dog or what others want to pay makes not a jot of difference with regard to the rescue situation. I don't know why anyone would think it does.

My decision to look more closely at the propoganda being thrown MY way, as a foster caregiver, began with my rescue/foster of a purebred Shih Tzu and as well a purebred Cavalier - both ex breeders from commercial kennels that bred them half to death to make money off of their very saleable offspring. The prices they charged never would have flown here 25-30 years ago, but start to vilify home-breeders and mutt breeders and 15 years ago we get commercial establishments cementing their market here. Please do not imply to me that crossbreeding has changed this up. It simply has changed up the product. Does anyone truly believe it would be better if these commercial kennels were just selling purebreds instead of all kinds?

Aiming to vilify homebreeders that crossbreed OR breed pure with the idea that that message will help rescue is nonsensical. What has been PROVEN, over and over again, is that the demand end is what needs to be tackled. Education toward responsible pet ownership is the way to swing around a community so that the number of animals coming into rescue diminishes to a point of being manageable.

CC


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## toryb (Jul 11, 2011)

Cute pups 

Wow there are some very rude people on here...


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Cc how can they be an improvement on the breed when they are no breed with no standard?!!!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> Cc how can they be an improvement on the breed when they are no breed with no standard?!!!


Well it's got to improve the Cav side just by out crossng the state they are in


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rona said:


> Well it's got to improve the Cav side just by out crossng the state they are in


But the dogs are not going to be bred back in so there will be no improvement to the breed and the pups could still suffer from the health issues of a cav.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

rona said:


> Well it's got to improve the Cav side just by out crossng the state they are in


But it would be sensible to outcrossing that breed although I agree that it's not going to be bred back into pure cav lines so pointless in this case.

And yes, CC, I _am_ assuming lack of health tests in this case. Call me cynical, but I sincerely doubt there were any carried out because despite your example of the boxer/corgi cross (what the heck was the point of that?!), it is almost unheard of for even big/known breeders in the UK to do this and people do breed just because they can with zero thought for the good of the puppies or health testing. Even the KC still does not insist on health testing for registration, which it damn well should.

The cute name thing has been debated to death and last time I provided examples from a well known puppy selling site, both of pedigrees and their far more expensive cutesy name cross bred counterparts. I'm sure you can find some yourself, no doubt including the 'non shedding because they're crossed with a poodle' nonsense people like to include.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> But the dogs are not going to be bred back in so there will be no improvement to the breed and the pups could still suffer from the health issues of a cav.


So, just for arguments sake. Take it that the parents have been tested in this instance.
You are telling me that breeding a Cav that is better than average but still has a few minor issues that could be bred out in time, would be better than breeding completely healthy mongrels just because it's a "breed"?


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

cinammontoast said:


> Couldn't care less what she breeds, but anyone who breeds ought to carry out all health tests for all breeds in the mix or they are an irresponsible byb who is no better than a puppy farmer.
> 
> Earlier in the thread, breeding for betterment of the breed/lines was mentioned, I _think_ by Gayle herself. Yes, this _*is*_ the only reason puppies should be bred, not for profit, not because you can or because they're cute. Just pop to your nearest rescue and look at the myriad unidentifiable crosses begging for homes. Bet they were really cute puppies too.
> 
> ...


And pedigree breed resues are NOT FULL of their breed waiting for homes too then?!?!?! :mad2:  ... I think you'll find that there are many, many 'pedigree' dogs in rescue too and maybe some are health tested and maybe some are not?! NOT ALL BREEDERS TAKE BACK THEIR HEALTH TESTED PUPPIES WHEN FAMILES FALL APART OR THE DOG BITES OR IT'S COLOUR CHANGES AND IT NO LONGER MATCHES THE FURNITURE!!!!!! :mad2: 
It's not just xbreeds and mongrels that end up in rescue you naive person you!! :scared:



toryb said:


> Cute pups
> 
> Wow there are some very rude people on here...


Sadly there are which is why I left them to it for a year, came back on recently and had a warm welcome from a handful of people but most are offensive, rude and far too opinionated!!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Matrix/Logan said:


> It's not just xbreeds and mongrels that end up in rescue you naive person you!! :scared:


First 3 pages of dogsblog have a total of 14 purebreds. Wonder how they ended up in rescues?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I don't care what anyone says, your puppies are so cute. :001_wub: :001_wub:

*If people want to argue about cross breeding 
*
*This is not the THREAD to be doing it on *

this is about pictures of very cute puppies


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Matrix/Logan said:


> And pedigree breed resues are NOT FULL of their breed waiting for homes too then?!?!?! :mad2:  ... I think you'll find that there are many, many 'pedigree' dogs in rescue too and maybe some are health tested and maybe some are not?! NOT ALL BREEDERS TAKE BACK THEIR HEALTH TESTED PUPPIES WHEN FAMILES FALL APART OR THE DOG BITES OR IT'S COLOUR CHANGES AND IT NO LONGER MATCHES THE FURNITURE!!!!!! :mad2:
> It's not just xbreeds and mongrels that end up in rescue you naive person you!! :scared:
> 
> Sadly there are which is why I left them to it for a year, came back on recently and had a warm welcome from a handful of people but most are offensive, rude and far too opinionated!!


breed rescues are full Only in the breeds where BYBs have jumped on the popularity band wagon!..such as my breed the Siberian husky...thats why we have a crisis, its not because of the reputable breeders...who ALWAYs take back their dogs, ...& who do you think run our recognised breed rescues? picking up the pieces of all the unscrupulous breeders out there??????? why THE ethical breeders/owners from the show and working scene thats who!!

sadly while ever the general public support the bybs and the puppy farmers the crisis will continue to get worse!!!!...its about time people did their homework before buying a puppy, fgs some people arnt even educated enough to spot a puppy farm when it smacks them in the face! 

.

.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Matrix/Logan said:


> And pedigree breed resues are NOT FULL of their breed waiting for homes too then?!?!?! :mad2:  ... I think you'll find that there are many, many 'pedigree' dogs in rescue too and maybe some are health tested and maybe some are not?! NOT ALL BREEDERS TAKE BACK THEIR HEALTH TESTED PUPPIES WHEN FAMILES FALL APART OR THE DOG BITES OR IT'S COLOUR CHANGES AND IT NO LONGER MATCHES THE FURNITURE!!!!!! :mad2:
> It's not just xbreeds and mongrels that end up in rescue you naive person you!! :scared:
> 
> Sadly there are which is why I left them to it for a year, came back on recently and had a warm welcome from a handful of people but most are offensive, rude and far too opinionated!!


Dear me, calm down! At no point did I say rescues have no pedigrees. Fortunately, breed rescues do alleviate (but don't eradicate) the problem and not all breeders take back puppies: what I think is that they *should* if they are halfway decent. Please show where I said that _all_ pedigree breeders take back pups. Please read properly if you're then gong to slam me for being naive. Duh. :mad2:

The point is that if people breed, they ought to fully health test, have a waiting list and be doing it to improve the progeny, regardless of pedigree/crosses/whatever and be prepared to give a lifetime guarantee to all buyers.

As Noushka says, some breeds are popular and are taken on by _naive_ people who haven't done their research hence my favourite rescue currently has an Akita in.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I think a lot of people have many opinions on what breeders should or shouldnt do. All seem to assume we make pots of cash too.......errrrr no. Not the case at all. If breeding is so damned easy and profitable then perhaps you should all breed your own pets but be set for heartbreak...lots of grey hairs...your homes getting affected...24 hour working days and having to deal with the GP which...in itself....can be a bloody nightmare at times. I guarantee the majority would only breed one litter and then take their hats off to breeders who give their all to breeding....because their dogs are their passion. Of course there are the breeders that take advantage if their dogs and use them to supplement their income but thats because the GP continue to line their greedy pockets.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

emmaviolet said:


> Cc how can they be an improvement on the breed when they are no breed with no standard?!!!


. . .



> But it would be sensible to outcrossing that breed although I agree that it's not going to be bred back into pure cav lines so pointless in this case.


For thousands of years prior to the umbrella registries and breed clubs people bred their own 'lines' of dogs using their own discretion. That is how dogs were improved upon and how types became defined. It was ALSO the way I was brought up to breed and is still common outside of those countries where the registries have taken hold.

It doesn't matter one bit that there is not a 'standard' when two dogs are bred together. It does not matter one bit whether or not a breeder wants to cross back toward a breed or whether they want to continously breed forward on mutts.

Improvement can happen without a standard. That is not a hard concept to grasp.



> sadly while ever the general public support the bybs and the puppy farmers the crisis will continue to get worse!!!!...its about time people did their homework before buying a puppy, fgs some people arnt even educated enough to spot a puppy farm when it smacks them in the face!


Noushka, sadly you have the wrong end of the stick here. Somehow you seem to perceive that the number of puppies produced can be somehow altered. Please explain how you think this can happen . . . as I don't believe it can. There is not a LEGAL way of making it happen.

Rescue difficulties cannot be resolved by discouraging breeders . . . as there is no WAY to stop those that are lo-lives from taking up all the slack and just producing more and more. We cannot diminish supply . . . it just shifts and that is WHY we have an even greater puppyfarm problem now than we ever have.

I have no appreciation for looking at operations that have 4 barns and keep 100-200 dogs, such as the ones that have grown up here partially CAUSED by well intentioned people who attack the wrong end of the stick without thinking the implications through.

What has been PROVEN to work with regard to keeping the rescue situation manageable (no-kill of healthy and adoptable) is to have rescue systems that utilize resources to educate and help toward responsible pet ownership. It is about educating people that aren't responsible away from acquiring animals and then keeping the ones acquired IN A HOME once they are there. THOSE are not issues governed by diminishing supply.

For the sake of the OP I am starting a new thread titled "Can we realistically expect to diminish the number of pups produced" where this discussion can take place.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-bree...nish-number-pups-produced.html#post1062246697



> And yes, CC, I am assuming lack of health tests in this case.


There ya go proving the bigotry that has gotten me riled on this thread. It is especially clear when this assumption is skipped when those involved in the fancy brag on litters and they get a pass on these kinds of assumptions.



> Call me cynical, but I sincerely doubt there were any carried out because despite your example of the boxer/corgi cross (what the heck was the point of that?!),.


And there ya go again running down the goal of another impassioned and well qualified breeder (a geneticist) who had an imagination and did the work . . . but it seems you don't have any appreciation for efforts that are outside of the box.



> it is almost unheard of for even big/known breeders in the UK to do this and people do breed just because they can with zero thought for the good of the puppies or health testing. Even the KC still does not insist on health testing for registration, which it damn well should.
> 
> The cute name thing has been debated to death and last time I provided examples from a well known puppy selling site, both of pedigrees and their far more expensive cutesy name cross bred counterparts. I'm sure you can find some yourself, no doubt including the 'non shedding because they're crossed with a poodle' nonsense people like to include.


What you are not getting here is that cute names and marketting tools used by those that breed small crossbreeds will not make A JOT OF DIFFERENCE with regard to what drives euthanasia in rescues. These do not MATTER. Small crossbred (or purebred) non shedding puppies are NOT what the problem is for rescue. Rescue dogs of this type continue to be manageable in numbers and in MOST places are in demand (waiting lists) from rescue.

I don't like dogs bred in bulk operations . . . but implying that we need to rail against all crossbred litters as if it would make a difference and as if small crossbreeds are what has driven the rescue crises is just dishonest.

The use of he strawman 'rescue' argument to justify bigotry against the idea of crossbred dogs does not fly on this thread or any other.

If health testing is the argument against this litter . . . then that is what it is for you and you have already admitted you are running on a bigotted assumption for that one . . . and that has been my complaint about the contributing deliberately oppositional posters from the start.

I refuse to make that kind of assumption myself and will call others out on doing so.

CC


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

CC. Want to give you rep but not allowed 

Would just like to say that I agree with your previous post 100%


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

Noushka05!!


Sarcasm really isn't your strong point!! :arf:

My thread was deleted by the 'important people' on here because it was classed as advertising!! I never once disputed them being a puppy farm on it either so don't have a sarcastic dig at me via someone else's thread until you have the facts straight!!! But let's not bring that thread into this one as they aren't related at all! 

And again, not all reputable breeders take back their own dogs! Some put them straight into their breed rescue!! FACT!!!


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

cinammontoast said:


> Dear me, calm down! At no point did I say rescues have no pedigrees. Fortunately, breed rescues do alleviate (but don't eradicate) the problem and not all breeders take back puppies: what I think is that they *should* if they are halfway decent. Please show where I said that _all_ pedigree breeders take back pups. Please read properly if you're then gong to slam me for being naive. Duh. :mad2:
> 
> The point is that if people breed, they ought to fully health test, have a waiting list and be doing it to improve the progeny, regardless of pedigree/crosses/whatever and be prepared to give a lifetime guarantee to all buyers.
> 
> As Noushka says, some breeds are popular and are taken on by _naive_ people who haven't done their research hence my favourite rescue currently has an Akita in.


That's your opinion, your entitled to it but it doesn't make you right!! 

So an Akita is in rescue!! Oooohh big deal, that just proves everything then doesn't it?!?!!  And that has no bearing on my argument previously that breed rescues are full as well as the rescue kennels for whatever reason!!

How do you know that isn't from a reputable breeder that is maybe no longer breeding, has no room, etc. etc. like any other pedigree dog out there runs a risk from??

Breeders may well only ever breed to improve their line but then again why the hell improve a 'pedigree breed' and keep breeding when the kennels and breed rescues are full?? Doesn't that make you reputable breeders as 'irresponsible' and 'uncaring' as poor Gayle?? Maybe when someone rings you to put their name on a waiting list for a puppy you should say "I'm sorry but I'm no longer going to breed to improve the breed of my chosen pedigree dog as there are too many homeless dogs in the uk, I think you should go to a rescue centre and rescue a poor defenceless little dog who through no fault of its own has ended up homeless"


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rona said:


> So, just for arguments sake. Take it that the parents have been tested in this instance.
> You are telling me that breeding a Cav that is better than average but still has a few minor issues that could be bred out in time, would be better than breeding completely healthy mongrels just because it's a "breed"?


No one going to answer this question?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Closing this to see how it changed from a picture of puppies thread to an all out row on breeding


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