# Springer Spaniel with a taste for blood!



## clairedarr (Dec 19, 2015)

I have an 8 month old male Springer Spaniel. He is loving, friendly and well socialised. He is the star of the puppy training classes and I have always walked him off lead. He is generally obedient when off lead but if he starts to chase a bird or rabbit he completely ignores commands. It is as though a 'red mist' descends on him. In the last couple of weeks he has killed a partridge on two occasions. Yesterday while out on a walk he spotted a deer, gave chase, ignored all commands and ended up in someone's garden where he killed a chicken.
I have had Springers for 30 years and have never come across this behaviour. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can correct this? I don't want to stop him walking off lead because he has so much energy.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2015)

clairedarr said:


> I have an 8 month old male Springer Spaniel. He is loving, friendly and well socialised. He is the star of the puppy training classes and I have always walked him off lead. He is generally obedient when off lead but if he starts to chase a bird or rabbit he completely ignores commands. It is as though a 'red mist' descends on him. In the last couple of weeks he has killed a partridge on two occasions. Yesterday while out on a walk he spotted a deer, gave chase, ignored all commands and ended up in someone's garden where he killed a chicken.
> I have had Springers for 30 years and have never come across this behaviour. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can correct this? I don't want to stop him walking off lead because he has so much energy.


For those of us with dogs who will kill prey, we have to be very cautious as being in someone's garden killing their animals is a great way to end up shot. 
The options are basically training and management. Management as in leash/long line to prevent running off in the first place, and training to a level where the dog will call off of a chase. 
IME dogs who are highly predatory like this are not likely to respond reliably to aversive techniques so the training has to be rewards based if you ever hope to compete with the thrill of the hunt. 
Hopefully @smokeybear will be along shortly with some recall links. 
Others can also suggest good trainers in your area, what area are you located in?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

You cannot allow him to continue this behaviour unchecked. He must be on the lead. It's not fair on the wildlife or your neighbours chickens. Get a long lead, as long as you can handle safely, and keep him on it. Practice and practice recall until he doesn't think twice about coming back to you when called. Don't let him off the lead again until you have an excellent recall.


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## clairedarr (Dec 19, 2015)

You are absolutely right and I am now keeping him on lead but I feel bad that he doesn't have the chance to run. What do you think of the idea of putting a basket muzzle on him so that he cannot kill?


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## clairedarr (Dec 19, 2015)

I am in Suffolk.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2015)

clairedarr said:


> You are absolutely right and I am now keeping him on lead but I feel bad that he doesn't have the chance to run. What do you think of the idea of putting a basket muzzle on him so that he cannot kill?


Do you mean muzzling him and still letting him run with the possibility of him taking off? No, I don't think that's a good idea. 
For one, a muzzled dog can still injure and even kill a smaller animal. But also, it's not preventing him from being shot or run over in his efforts to go things.

I would really work on getting a good recall on him and then consider letting him off in safe areas.

Now, I do think it's useful to muzzle train any dog, but especially one like this who could be a danger to others if he gets away from you. So in that context, yes, do work on getting him used to a muzzle and wearing one happily.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

There is no red mist, he's just doing what a lot of dogs would do if/when given the opportunity. If my Slovak got into someone's garden and there were chickens, you bet she'd kill them. When you have a dog like this you need to be really careful about where you let them off the lead - being anywhere near residential gardens there is always the real risk of being caged animals, birds, cats, etc, which as you've seen spells disaster. Chalk it up to a lesson learned.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

clairedarr said:


> I have an 8 month old male Springer Spaniel. He is loving, friendly and well socialised. He is the star of the puppy training classes and I have always walked him off lead. He is generally obedient when off lead but if he starts to chase a bird or rabbit he completely ignores commands. It is as though a 'red mist' descends on him. In the last couple of weeks he has killed a partridge on two occasions. Yesterday while out on a walk he spotted a deer, gave chase, ignored all commands and ended up in someone's garden where he killed a chicken.
> I have had Springers for 30 years and have never come across this behaviour. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can correct this? I don't want to stop him walking off lead because he has so much energy.


Hi, I can personally recommend Sue Hough http://www.k9magic.co.uk/

There is no "red mist" he is carrying out parts of the predatory sequence Scan, Eye, Stalk, Chase, Grab-bite, Kill-bite, Dissect, Consume.

The more he practises this behaviour the better he will get as he is being reinforced for chasing.

An ESS was built to flush birds, and, after they are shot, to retrieve them and they must have an outlet for their working instincts.

You can harness this chase instinct and redirect it onto toys eg balll, frisbees etc.

You can also keep the dog occupied by harnessing his scenting instincts to build a reliable recall.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

*Why can't I get a reliable *recall*?*

'Come' is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.

Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…

At some point in time, usually from around 6 - 10 months, depending on the individual, "Velcro" dog will morph into "Bog off" dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

*How and when do I start with a puppy?*

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:

• Come from across the room. 
• Come from out of sight 
• Come no matter who calls
• Come even if you are busy doing something else
• Come even if you are asleep. 
• Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
• Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2. Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

• Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
• Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
• If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
• Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
• Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the "value" of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog's life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

*What about an older or rescue dog?*

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the day's food ration up into small bags (between10 - 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying "too bad" and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………

*How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?*

Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your "helper" simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it's getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog's name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

*Seminars*

21 May 2016 David Ryan Manchester

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/predatory-chase-seminar-manchester/

6 - 9 August 2016 John Rogerson Ultimate Recall Course Nottingham

http://inlinedogtraining.co.uk/course details-2.html

*Books*

Teach your Dog to Come when Called

By Katie Buvala

Line Training for Dogs
By Monika Gutman

Total Recall
By Pippa Mattinson

Teach your Dog to Come When Called
By Erica Peachey

Training your Dog to Come When Called
By John Rogerson

The Dog Vinci Code

By John Rogerson

Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
by David Ryan

Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts
By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

*DVDs*

Line Training for Dogs
By Monika Gutman

Really Reliable Recall
By Leslie Nelson

Training the Recall
By Michael Ellis

Training the Whistle Recall

By Pamela Dennison

Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called
By Sarah Whitehead

Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name?

Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park.

If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you.

Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training.

Including:
• How to know what's rewarding for your dog and what's not
• Five times when you shouldn't call your dog!
• Using your voice to call versus using a whistle
• What to do if you call and your dog doesn't come to you
The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah

http://www.dogtrain.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=80&osCsid=kguat02fdk6a8q00ma31k228n1

*

Website articles:*

How to use a long line properly here (under information to download)

http://www.dogpsyche.co.uk/

http://www.apdt.co.uk/content/files/training-tips/RECALL.pdf

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

http://www.clickerdogs.com/perfectrecall.htm

http://www.clickerdogs.com/listofreinforcers.htm

http://www.clickerdogs.com/distracti...yourrecall.htm

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/20...call-collapse/

http://www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htm

http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_f...e%20recall.pdf

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/teaching-come/

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/come-at-the-park

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/te..._to_you_on_cue

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/be...me-when-called

http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/The_First_Steps_to_Teaching_a_Reliable_Recall.html

http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/More_on_the_Reliable_Recall.html

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/lessons/Lesson6.html

http://denisefenzipetdogs.com/2015/09/21/recall-training/


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

*Scentwork Resources*

*Books*

Anne Lill Kvam The Canine Kingdom of Scent

Martina Nau Snooping Around

Pam McKinnon Talking Dogs Scentwork; The Manual

Roy Hunter Fun Nosework for Dogs

Vivian Theby Smellorama; nose games for dogs

*DVDs*

Scent 1 Pam Mackinnon

Scent 2 Pam Mackinnon

*Website*

http://talkingdogsscentwork.co.uk/Talking_Dogs_Scentwork/Welcome.html

http://suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/scent-games-educating-your-dogs-nose


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## chissy 15 (Mar 13, 2013)

I to have a springer who likes to chase birds/wild life and his recall goes out the window. Fortunately he has never caught or killed anything but because he blows his recall when he sees anything (which is 100% when nothing is around), I have to keep him on lead unless in a completely fenced and secure area. I use a 20 metre lead (heim lead) so he can still run around and burn off energy.


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## clairedarr (Dec 19, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> *Why can't I get a reliable *recall*?*
> 
> 'Come' is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.
> 
> ...


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## clairedarr (Dec 19, 2015)

Wow Smokeybear - thank you so much for all your very helpful and supportive information! You have given me hope. I have springers for 30 years and never had this problem before.
Just as you predict, my spaniel is in the 6-10 month bracket. His recall can be good for an hour off lead (as it was on the 'chicken day') and then he completely ignores me - it is very frustrating! I am careful about where I let him off lead, but I live deep in the countryside and would never let him off lead in a built up or residential area. On the 'chicken day' he found a remote house with chickens in the garden.
Thank you for all the resources you have listed. I will certainly use them. I have a large garden so my husband and I can practise the exercises there.


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## clairedarr (Dec 19, 2015)

chissy 15 said:


> I to have a springer who likes to chase birds/wild life and his recall goes out the window. Fortunately he has never caught or killed anything but because he blows his recall when he sees anything (which is 100% when nothing is around), I have to keep him on lead unless in a completely fenced and secure area. I use a 20 metre lead (heim lead) so he can still run around and burn off energy.


It sounds like we have a similar problem! I will get a helm lead and also use the very helpful advice and resourses posted by smokeybear


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't know why you sound so surprised that your springer is killing things, he is a hunting dog after all. I have a wirehaired pointer who used to be well experienced in killing things, chickens included (although he has never gone into gardens, these chickens were in a field with a footpath through it) and absolutely the more they practice it, the more skilled and intent they become at the task.

I simply managed him so that if there were farms in the near vicinity, or small holdings then he would be on a lead as I learned my lesson about chickens very quickly. I used to walk him in places that were fairly safe so should he decide to take off after something there were no roads or train lines etc nearby. Thankfully now he is older and we don't walk so much in places that have lots of game about he isn't much of a hunter.

I also did a lot of focus work that involved toys and treats so I can very easily get his attention back on to me by revealing a tennis ball.


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## clairedarr (Dec 19, 2015)

Leanne77 said:


> I don't know why you sound so surprised that your springer is killing things, he is a hunting dog after all. I have a wirehaired pointer who used to be well experienced in killing things, chickens included (although he has never gone into gardens, these chickens were in a field with a footpath through it) and absolutely the more they practice it, the more skilled and intent they become at the task.
> 
> I simply managed him so that if there were farms in the near vicinity, or small holdings then he would be on a lead as I learned my lesson about chickens very quickly. I used to walk him in places that were fairly safe so should he decide to take off after something there were no roads or train lines etc nearby. Thankfully now he is older and we don't walk so much in places that have lots of game about he isn't much of a hunter.
> 
> I also did a lot of focus work that involved toys and treats so I can very easily get his attention back on to me by revealing a tennis ball.


Springers are supposed to flush out the birds, not kill them. I have had Springers for 30 years and have never encountered this problem before, hence my surprised tone. My previous Springers never even harmed a wounded bird. I had always been very careful not to let him off lead anywhere where he would come into contact with domestic animals or roads. On the day in question we were in open heathland in deepest countryside and he saw a muntjac deer and gave chase. I will be working on his recall skills.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

clairedarr said:


> Wow Smokeybear - thank you so much for all your very helpful and supportive information! You have given me hope. I have springers for 30 years and never had this problem before.
> Just as you predict, my spaniel is in the 6-10 month bracket. His recall can be good for an hour off lead (as it was on the 'chicken day') and then he completely ignores me - it is very frustrating! I am careful about where I let him off lead, but I live deep in the countryside and would never let him off lead in a built up or residential area. On the 'chicken day' he found a remote house with chickens in the garden.
> Thank you for all the resources you have listed. I will certainly use them. I have a large garden so my husband and I can practise the exercises there.


In the mean time, is there a nearby field that you can rent for an hour occasionally, so that he can zoom around all he likes with no risk of him doing a Houdini?


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

clairedarr said:


> Springers are supposed to flush out the birds, not kill them. I have had Springers for 30 years and have never encountered this problem before, hence my surprised tone. My previous Springers never even harmed a wounded bird. I had always been very careful not to let him off lead anywhere where he would come into contact with domestic animals or roads. On the day in question we were in open heathland in deepest countryside and he saw a muntjac deer and gave chase. I will be working on his recall skills.


Yep, we require them as working dogs to only 'act out' part of the predatory sequence but what comes naturally after the flush is catching, killing and eating the prey. Generally we cut that part out by shooting the prey and then asking the dog to retrieve it unharmed, all quite unnatural really and thats why I wonder why you are surprised. In many ways we ask too much because we expect them to hunt and flush, all that excitement is built up inside them, and then we expect an intact, often live bit of game at the end. A hunting gundog that kills...desirable? No. Natural? Yes.


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## A springer girl (Dec 25, 2015)

Hi. ( first post here) I have a springer as well he is 11 months old. His recall is wonderful until there is something around. Though one thing I did teach him was a command to turn him in a different direction. This one works better than his name and most of the time better than his whistle. 

I taught him The command ' your going the wrong way' sounds a long command but it has worked brilliantly. 

When he is getting too far away from me or I want to go in the other direction I shout this and he spins round and follows what ever way I am going. He knows that he doesn't have to come back to my side but he has to move in my general direction and get closer to me. I tend to use this one for several reasons.... I can see something in the distance that I don't want him to go near, ( stops a few stands offs with rabbits and dogs etc) but also it keeps him watching me all the time. I suddenly go in a different direction and shout this and he comes running as well. Sometimes I shout it from behind a tree and hide. So he spins round and has to find me. 

I have started to teach him left and right followed by Co ordinating hand signals which is going well. 

All is good until I see a rabbit or a dog ( which is a whole other post and problem in its own right ). 

When we go out now though I tend to stay off the paths and go deep into the woods. You meet less dogs, people, rabbits etc. He much prefers walking through the trees and running though the ferns and sniffing everything. As we are still working on our recall with distractions this has been a life line for him and me and I have managed to get him off the long lead and lots of exercise. When we walk the paths he just trots along. But in the actual forest he zooms around and does what a springer does best.


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