# TICA experimental new breed



## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

I know this is controversial but I wanted to post here for honest answers as I know there are a lot of people who use this section with a lot of experience who will give frank and honest advice. 
Although I don't mind hearing opinions I would like it if we could keep this thread on a sensible level as I would rather not be the cause of any arguments. Thanks all in advance. 

I am planning on creating a new hybrid between my sand cat and a domestic female. I would like to breed for domestic temperament but for the large wide set ears and the colouring of a sand cat. I have not fully explored what other traits I would like to retain but I think it would be very hard to decide that without first seeing what a well planned mating would produce. 

As you do not require a dangerous wild animal license to own a sand cat, the hybrid kittens would not require one either (in early generation savannah cats and bengals a license is required) . Also due to the small size they would be much more suited to the average household than say a large early generation savannah.

I have been investigating as to if I could register the kittens and have realised the only way to do this would be for me to register with TICA and to apply for the kittens to be placed on the experimental new breed register. I would then plan litters based on temperament and physical traits, of course if the kittens showed any signs of being too "wild" or any ill health as the result of genetics (although I cannot foresee this being an issue) I would discontinue breeding and any kittens that would not be suitable as pets would remain with me for the rest of their lives. I do want to do this as responsibly as possible and I do understand the implications ethically with breeding any type of cat, let alone a hybrid. If anybody has any information on the experimental new breed register I would be interested to hear your experiences. I have read the details of how a new breed progresses before it is considered recognised and know that in the future for the breed to continue it would require more than just me. 

I would like to think that I am in a position where breeding cats is an educated choice. I have plenty of time to give and I have a lot of experience in rescue work and from this a broad spectrum of knowledge. I will be the first to admit though that I don't know everything. I would like information if anybody has it on how to get a mentor, I know usually it is through programmes set up by the breed society but as this is a new breed I'm not sure how I would find somebody suitable who would be willing to give guidance. Any ideas or information on this would be very much appreciated. 

I have found a vet whom I trust and who has many years experience. He also used to breed early generation and then later generation bengals some 20 years ago. So he has no problem handling any potential kittens. He also does call out and emergency out of hours services. If you can think of any other ways I should prepare in regards to medical treatment again it would be very much appreciated. 

I have planned that my kittens will not be sold to just anybody. I will do home checks regardless of where the owners are from and only offer kittens to people who are suitable and will offer an indoor only home. These cats are early generation hybrids and as such I think it would be completely irresponsible for them to be let outside. I will also make sure that all kittens are neutered or spayed before leaving me as I could not live with myself if any ended up in the hands of people who wanted them only to produce litter after litter. I will also be keeping the first litter for longer than just until they could be spayed so that I can see how they develop, log their progress and get a firm gauge of the characteristics they have inherited. I also think that early neutering could help to make the kittens more suitable pets, as this way they will hopefully not develop any bad behavioural habits such as spraying. I will also need time to put a care guide together so that potential homes have a complete guide to the care requirements of these kittens. I will also be able to asses each kitten's personality as an individual and from this hopefully place them in the most suitable home. They will also of course be vaccinated, wormed and vet checked multiple times. 

I do not want to fall into the rank of an unscrupulous breeder and I am fully prepared to put myself into this wholeheartedly with the welfare of my pets being the priority. I do realise the years of time, money and dedication it requires to responsibly create a new breed. I am also fully prepared to receive any criticism over this decision and I will welcome any questions anybody may have. I will answer as honestly as I can given that this is new ground and I may not be able to predict all eventualities. I am keeping a very open mind as I know this subject will raise a lot of issues and I expect there might be a multitude of concerns I will need to address. 

I am not expecting everybody on here to agree with my choice, however I'm hoping to get the correct help I need to do this in the most educated way I can so any support or constructive criticism would be hugely appreciated. 

Thank you all for reading.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I've not read all of your post (I'm cooking dinner  ) but will do.. one of my first thoughts is are there any other sand cat owners who want to join in? My feeling is that you would find it extremely difficult, if nigh on impossible, to 'fix' a certain unique look based on a developing breed having only one 'wild cat' ancestor.

Have you done any research into fertility of hybrids?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

I cannot understand why you would want to do this... 

What benefits are your hoping to achieve cos I cannot see any at all , I could see it if you was enhancing the sand cat but you are just going to mate with a mogg

Sorry I don't get it .. 

To register with TICA both cats have to be registered with them, as far as I am aware ... Experience registered breeders should only be doing this not someone who has never breed before


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

The research I have done indicates that there should be no problem in creating the hybrids. Also that the early generation males would all be fertile (in early savannahs and bengals this is not the case). In theory there should be no birthing problems as the kits are of similar size if not smaller than domestic cat kittens. 

I have researched into getting him a female sand cat, but this has proved impossible. I know many people in the exotic pet circle and mine is sadly the only one in private hands currently. I have even tried to source a sand cat female for him from Czechoslovakia! They were the last breeders I know of who had sand cats in private hands, however they do not any longer and could not direct me to anybody who still had any.

I do share your concerns with fixing traits from one male. I have started to research line breeding as this does involve some related matings but far less than most lines that contain a mutation. I certainly do not want to start inbreeding as it would create problems of its own. I also know that if you double up on the good traits you will also double up on any bad traits with these type of matings, even if those traits are health problems. This is why after a generation I would be having tests done on all cats I planned to use to contribute to a breeding programme. 

I would certainly not be breeding any cats that run the risk of inheriting any health issues regardless of how small the issue was.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Cosmills said:


> I cannot understand why you would want to do this...
> 
> What benefits are your hoping to achieve cos I cannot see any at all , I could see it if you was enhancing the sand cat but you are just going to mate with a mogg
> 
> ...


Wild cats do not have to be registered according to TICA. Outcrosses that are not eligible for registration have a letter put before their name on the pedigree and that can influence if a cat can or cannot be shown at the later stages if the breed becomes recognised.

I cannot register with the GCCF as they do not accept hybrids between wild and domestic anymore, but TICA do. The idea is not to enhance sand cats but to work slowly towards a new breed with a very similar look, that would be suitable for a domestic home environment.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> The research I have done indicates that there should be no problem in creating the hybrids. Also that the early generation males would all be fertile (in early savannahs and bengals this is not the case). In theory there should be no birthing problems as the kits are of similar size if not smaller than domestic cat kittens.
> 
> I have researched into getting him a female sand cat, but this has proved impossible. I know many people in the exotic pet circle and mine is sadly the only one in private hands currently. I have even tried to source a sand cat female for him from Czechoslovakia! They were the last breeders I know of who had sand cats in private hands, however they do not any longer and could not direct me to anybody who still had any.
> 
> ...


For me, the sand cat is one of the *the* most attractive small, wild cats and I can appreciate why someone might want to create a hybrid look-a-like - that after all was the aim with the Bengal.

Whilst I'm reasonably good on genetics knowledge very generally, in NO way could I profess to know anywhere near enough with regard to what you're hoping to do... but my gut feeling is that working with only one sand cat is going to be woefully inadequate. You obviously cannot repeatedly mate back to the one founding wild cat ancestor and to be able to 'fix' any sort of look, type and colour (which is obviously the aim).


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> Wild cats do not have to be registered according to TICA. Outcrosses that are not eligible for registration have a letter put before their name on the pedigree and that can influence if a cat can or cannot be shown at the later stages if the breed becomes recognised.
> 
> I cannot register with the GCCF as they do not accept hybrids between wild and domestic anymore, but TICA do. The idea is not to enhance sand cats but to work slowly towards a new breed with a very similar look, that would be suitable for a domestic home environment.


Personally I would leave well alone ... There are plenty of suitable domestic cat without trying to create more from wild cats ... Ethical nah

Sorry am out on this one....


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Sand cats are beautiful. Mine is truly stunning and a wonder to behold. They have even more presence in person. He's also good fun. He has his moments of complete stubborn catlike strops but also he can be very affectionate. In fact I think he acts this way just to keep me on my toes! He is not a pet at all though and as such would not be suitable for just anybody. 

However the look is something I would love to try and capture, with a toned down domestic personality. My plan was to use suitable outcrosses. I have seen a few breeds that I feel could contribute well. 

I do know what you mean about the genetic pool being very limited. I have done some research though and it seems a lot of cats have been created from only one cat carrying a mutation. It is possible but it will require very selective breeding and a great deal of consideration on my part.

I will always be on the look out for another sand cat, male or female that could contribute. This is very unlikely though so I'm not holding my breath!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I'm not quite sure how you are going to do this - one male isn't going to be enough. I know when Bengals started it was incredibly costly for the foundation breeders and incredibly hard work. 

You will need a few males otherwise you are going to seriously end up in a genetic nightmare. 

Is it a project worth doing? I don't know, I've never met a sand cat, have no idea what genetic problems they might have and you would have to genetically screen and Domestic cat for every know deficient gene before breeding otherw ise you could introduce something horrid.

Not sure I want to undertake something like this on my own - you really need a few people together working towards the same goal or you will go mad.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

spid said:


> I'm not quite sure how you are going to do this - one male isn't going to be enough. I know when Bengals started it was incredibly costly for the foundation breeders and incredibly hard work.
> 
> You will need a few males otherwise you are going to seriously end up in a genetic nightmare.
> 
> ...


 I'm sharing your thoughts exactly on the genetic nightmare front. I do plan to screen all potential queens and then again all F1 kittens to be sure. I also would not feel happy homing a kitten that was carrying any potential problems as it would not be fair on the cat or any potential owners.

With regard to cost, I do know the cost will be high. I have considered the price for selling the kittens, and although I have in the past received considerable offers for potential matings before this was even planned, and even If I sold many of these kittens for prices higher than I was offered I would not even begin to break even with the amount I have spent on enclosures, heating bills, food, replacing various things in my home, modifying my home and lifestyle etc. And that is before I have factored in the cost of actually raising the kittens.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> my gut feeling is that working with only one sand cat is going to be woefully inadequate. You obviously cannot repeatedly mate back to the one founding wild cat ancestor and to be able to 'fix' any sort of look, type and colour (which is obviously the aim).


This just about sums up my reaction. I don't have quite the same kneejerk 'don't even think about it' response as some others but I do have a lot of questions.
What breed of 'domestic' female are you considering? Why? Is there something lacking in your sand cat that you're hoping to bring into a hybrid line? What exactly is the unique trait which you hope to breed true? How many breeders do you hope to include in this programme? At what point will you consider the hybrids a true breed in their own right? Will you consider other outcrosses? If so which breeds and why?


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Cosmills said:


> I cannot understand why you would want to do this...
> 
> What benefits are your hoping to achieve cos I cannot see any at all , I could see it if you was enhancing the sand cat but you are just going to mate with a mogg
> 
> Sorry I don't get it ..


Just to play devil's advocate perhaps, but if everyone thought this way, we wouldn't have Savannahs or Bengals, or Ragamuffins, or any number of other accepted breeds that came from some outcross or hybridization programs. Aren't Muffins and Exotics the result of something of the sort, for instance?

Or now that people have done that, we should just stop and stick with the set number of accepted breeds we have right at this moment?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> if everyone thought this way, we wouldn't have Savannahs or Bengals, or Ragamuffins, or any number of other accepted breeds that came from some outcross or hybridization programs


Very true. There's an awful lot of NIH (Not Invented Here) so not a good idea in cat breeding. My only issue is that you have to think many generations on to work out what you want to do at the start. If the thinking hasn't got past a first gen then it's going nowhere.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I have no objection to programs involving domestic cats (Ragdolls, RagaMuffins and Exotics for example), but not adding in various species. It does nothing to help conserve the species, and if you could get enough sand cats to input into a program then I feel you would have enough to breed sand cats rather than hybrids.

My other reservation is that if I remember correctly sand cats need quite a specific environment to do well - very dry. I wonder how much of that will go to any kittens?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

dagny0823 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate perhaps, but if everyone thought this way, we wouldn't have Savannahs or Bengals, or Ragamuffins, or any number of other accepted breeds that came from some outcross or hybridization programs. Aren't Muffins and Exotics the result of something of the sort, for instance?
> 
> Or now that people have done that, we should just stop and stick with the set number of accepted breeds we have right at this moment?


Yes I understand we wouldn't have these wonderful breeds if it was not for outcrossing , but this has been done by selected breeders with deep knowledge and years of experience and with more than one cat ...

Breeding a domestic breed is hard enough never mind trying to create one .


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks for the reply havoc,
I will try to answer your questions as best I can. 

The breeds of domestic I was considering could vary a little but mostly cats that would not have traits too dominant. I think that golden british shorthairs have a very similar look in colour and the stocky body but ear size could be an issue, however the coat pattern could be ideal. I also like the looks of abyssinian cats (I'm a sucker for a ticked or shaded coat anyway), however I do not want to add too much of an energetic breed to the line if possible as a calmer disposition from the kittens is a priority.

I honestly can't think of much my sand cat is lacking, he is physically well, has lovely proportions and has a very unique movement. I have given this thought previously and although I understand everybody thinks that their pet is perfect no matter what, I myself can't see much I would like to change. His personality is the main issue, although he is tame enough with me and his regular family members he can be cagey and aloof with strangers. I would like to calm the wild temperament and make an all round more social cat that was happier in a domestic setting, without compromising the overall appearance.

The unique traits I hope to retain so far are his coat pattern, he has a stunning coat not unlike a golden shaded, but much more subtle. It varies through from bright golds to soft amber and grey, the pictures of mine and other sand cats I have seen do not capture the true coat but show a duller version. I also love his two dark black stripes at the top of his forelegs. I would love to retain these as I think they really do make the appearance. Other things I would like to breed into this line would be the typical characteristic kittenish expression of the sand cat. The large wide set ears would absolutely have to stay, and hopefully the large head and bright inquisitive eyes. I would like dark pads on the feet like the sand cat, he does not have skin pads like most cats, instead the whole underside of his foot is covered in course hair. I would not breed to keep this as I don't think it would serve any benefit to a domestic cat but a dark under paw would be preferable.

With regard to including other breeders - I just don't know yet. I have met people who wanted me to breed my sand cat simply to acquire a kitten from me for breeding ( who I would never sell a breeding cat to!!!). I would only be interested in including other breeders if they had similar breeding goals to me and were already registered and experienced. Although I may not have been breeding cats for many years I do have a lot of knowledge about caring for wild cats and as such any potential breeder of these new cats would need to be fully prepared for something very different! 
I would obviously expand the breed over time. Tica requires that in the experimental new breed stage there be 10 cats and two litters of kittens in the first 2 years registered with them, however to progress the breed further there needs to be a set numbers are registered breeders. For this reason I would like to find suitable breeding homes for kittens carrying the correct traits for breeding, but only to very special homes with registered, well reputed catteries. But this will be a long way off.
I would also not be selling any kittens for breeding from the first few litters. I think to do so would be irresponsible of me. I need to establish the kittens' long term health (all the correct tests still can't predict an unusual fluke) and that the temperament of kittens remains sound after maturity.

The basis for choosing breeds for outcrossing will be personality and similar traits to a sand cat. I would not like to add savannah or bengal to the breed because I think one wild cat species' genetics is enough. 

I would actually only consider them a true breed in their own right once they were officially recognised through TICA and once later generation cats produced kittens of uniform looks and consistent personality. I think only then could they be considered a real "breed". I would like to register all kittens born though so that they are on paper with TICA for future breeding programmes.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> My other reservation is that if I remember correctly sand cats need quite a specific environment to do well - very dry. I wonder how much of that will go to any kittens?


 Yes they do. I have a dehumidifier running to help with damp and wet (we had extreme heat yesterday but 45% humidity). He copes well with most things though and in american zoo's they even have sand cats outdoors throughout winter with a heated indoor area. I'm a worrier by nature so I am constantly fussing about temperature through the winter and the like (much to my partner's dismay!). I supply heat lamps in my home and a radiator of his own in his outdoor run (where he spends most of his time as it is his "area" and he seems to know this). In winter it can make the cost quite staggering. However I believe a hybrid kitten will be fine in a warm house. The temperature in the desert can be scorching in the day and even frost at night so I do not think that there is too much to worry about on those fronts.

My concern is potential homes feeding dry food. Dry food is bad enough for domestic cats but with a sand cat it could be fatal. They do not drink at all, I have seen mine drink once (I always leave water down). So my only worry would be kittens eating dried food and not drinking enough to compensate for this. I think I would have to have details in the care guide and even in the sales agreement for the kittens that they would not be given dry food under any circumstances.

Again this is something I will assess based on the first litter. Another good reason for keeping them longer. Thank you as that is something I will really need to consider and I'm glad you brought that issue up.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I would also not be selling any kittens for breeding from the first few litters.


Let me get this right. You have a male you wish to use. You do intend to use another breed of cat so you have two choices. You either persuade a reputable breeder to let you have a female kitten for breeding with your sand cat or you find a breeder with a good breeding queen with all the traits you want but you'll own the kittens and have a 100% say where they go and what happens. Whoever the breeder is who has provided the queen, by whichever method, will not necessarily be allowed to be part of the breeding programme.

Good luck.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

havoc said:


> Let me get this right. You have a male you wish to use. You do intend to use another breed of cat so you have two choices. You either persuade a reputable breeder to let you have a female kitten for breeding with your sand cat or you find a breeder with a good breeding queen with all the traits you want but you'll own the kittens and have a 100% say where they go and what happens. Whoever the breeder is who has provided the queen, by whichever method, will not necessarily be allowed to be part of the breeding programme.
> 
> Good luck.


That's a very extreme reaction. What I meant was that I would breed myself for the first few litters to gauge if these hybrids are something that is worth producing. Once somebody else had their own line from my sand cat, I would have no control over where their kittens went and to what homes and if the potential kittens from them left already spayed or not. Which is why at first I will not be involving anybody else. After a few litters are born, that have proved healthy, suitable cats will be available to good registered breeders.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Doesn't that mean you have to buy in a breeding queen of your own? To have total control of the kittens I mean.

I think Havoc means good luck in finding someone that is willing to sell you a quality breeding queen to start a new hybrid breed, of which they will have no input or control over.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

They have very broad heads - would the hybrid kittens be able to be born normally?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I think Havoc means good luck in finding someone that is willing to sell you a quality breeding queen to start a new hybrid breed, of which they will have no input or control over.


Got it in one!


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

I have always been intrigued by your beautiful and awesome sand cat  That said may I add my 2 cents?

You would be taking on an incredible challenge, especially by yourself in such an uncharted territory. There are so many potential health and ethical considerations. They do require specific dietary and environmental considerations as you've posted before.

I'm curious about why you wouldn't at least start by breeding sand cats? They are so rare, if you love them why not work toward further enhancing the breed? Then you could _possibly_ go from there. I would love to learn more sand cats, they seem incredible. But I have to agree with the others.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Ahhh. Sorry I understand now. Yes it does mean that. I have seen a few suitable queens advertised. One I actually phoned about, she was active registered and seemed like a good candidate. I turned her down due to blood typing issues but they were willing to sell to me. I know a lot of breeders will only sell active registered cats to people who have a registered cattery name though. So I do see this concern. I have also been looking at imported lines from europe as I have seen a few overseas that I have taken a shine to.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Jonescat said:


> They have very broad heads - would the hybrid kittens be able to be born normally?


 I too have been worried about this. I have read though that sand cat kittens are born weighing just 40 to 60 grams. This means that they would be about half the size of a normal kitten. I of course would not be taking any risks and would be having my vet on stand by in case of an emergency. I think this is something that would not truly be known until delivery and could vary birth to birth.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> I have always been intrigued by your beautiful and awesome sand cat  That said may I add my 2 cents?
> 
> You would be taking on an incredible challenge, especially by yourself in such an uncharted territory. There are so many potential health and ethical considerations. They do require specific dietary and environmental considerations as you've posted before.
> 
> I'm curious about why you wouldn't at least start by breeding sand cats? They are so rare, if you love them why not work toward further enhancing the breed? Then you could _possibly_ go from there. I would love to learn more sand cats, they seem incredible. But I have to agree with the others.


 I'm afraid it as not as simple as breeding sand cats. They are not really a breed but a species and despite my best efforts I have not been able to locate a female for him. That said they are not considered endangered in the wild, the species status is "near threatened".

I do understand that this is a huge undertaking, I would like help but obviously it would have to be somebody with the same breeding goals and that I felt I could trust 100%.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I actually find this interesting.

Out of interest do sand cats have blood group issues.

Defo think its something you need help with from other sand cat breeders who are interested in your idea.

Id be interested to hear how you get on with this.

What breed do you have in mind to cross the sand cat too?

Failing this as it does seem like a lot of long hard work what about sand cat breeding would this interest you is this allowed also.

Good luck with what ever you decide.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Do you actually have any experience in breeding? I really don't want this to come across as arrogant or condescending but I'm pretty sure that experience serves me, my queens and the odd struggling newborn well. If you've never bred cats at all this would be a huge undertaking. Crossing with another breed means you'd have no idea of expected numbers in a litter or size of kittens. There's a part of me saying a maiden queen wouldn't be the best choice.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> Do you actually have any experience in breeding? I really don't want this to come across as arrogant or condescending but I'm pretty sure that experience serves me, my queens and the odd struggling newborn well. If you've never bred cats at all this would be a huge undertaking. Crossing with another breed means you'd have no idea of expected numbers in a litter or size of kittens. There's a part of me saying a maiden queen wouldn't be the best choice.


Good point,something to think about too op.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> I'm afraid it as not as simple as breeding sand cats. *They are not really a breed but a species and despite my best efforts I have not been able to locate a female for him.
> *
> That said they are not considered endangered in the wild, the species status is "near threatened".


I think you just explained why it isn't a good idea to breed this cat...

unless you really know what you're doing.

TBH, that you won't know if the queen will or won't need to be c-sectioned until delivery should be a huge concern.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Just been thinking too how would you be able to test your stock as what exactly would you know to test for.Would tests come about after a few generations when you see some sort of pattern in some illnesses etc or would you have to test for everything from the off.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

This COULD be an exciting project - BUT it needs at least a good 6 months in detailed planning minimum, I think - otherwise you are going to get to F2 status and no where to go. FInding breeders with the cash to help AND the right ethical attitude might be hard too. ANd you would HAVE to early neuter otherwise these kittens could end up in the wrong hands and in dire conditions once the bybs get a hold. 

Get the panning right, get other breeders on board, draw up aims and objective and what happens when you hit each one. No point starting a new hybrid if it ends up dying out after 4 years due to lack of interest or suitable outcrosses.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> This COULD be an exciting project - BUT it needs at least a good 6 months in detailed planning minimum, I think - otherwise you are going to get to F2 status and no where to go. FInding breeders with the cash to help AND the right ethical attitude might be hard too. ANd you would HAVE to early neuter otherwise these kittens could end up in the wrong hands and in dire conditions once the bybs get a hold.
> 
> Get the panning right, get other breeders on board, draw up aims and objective and what happens when you hit each one. No point starting a new hybrid if it ends up dying out after 4 years due to lack of interest or suitable outcrosses.


yep agree.

I think op you have done right thing in asking opinions/advise you can get a lot of breeders input and things you may not have thought of could pop up.

I also wonder if some of the offspring may have fertility probs as I know some cats do when they are hybrids something to do with the number of chromosomes not matching up I think it is.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Thank you all for the replies. 
Before we go any further I would like to add that I can see how people would think, from what I have said, that I am trying to monopolise breeding these kittens. The reason that it would only be me breeding to start with is because I would need to check how all the kittens were progressing before deciding if the breed was sustainable, again health and temperament wise.

I alone would be totally responsible if these kittens fell into the hands of people who wanted to breed them for money, or to another breeder who did not early neuter and relied only on neuter contracts. I would be mortified at the idea of any of these kittens ending up in breeding runs forced to produce litter after litter. This is why I say I would need a breeder I can trust. At the end of the day it would be me who created these cats and if even one was to suffer I will be completely responsible. 
I'm sure a lot of you can sympathise with this sentiment as breeders and I know that you all would do anything to protect your kittens and find them the best homes possible. 

Hi we love bsh's, 
I have answered some of those questions in earlier posts, but just to recap, sand cats are blood type A according to my research however certain colours of the british shorthair is an ideal cross for cobby body and temperament. Hence the blood typing issues with the female cat I called about (she was a BSH). 
I cannot find other sand cat breeders who are interested because there are barely any sand cats in private hands in the world. I have searched for a female all over the globe and have never found one. 

Havoc, 
with regards to breeding I have only a little experience I'm afraid. I worked for a boarding kennels and cattery where I also cared for the owners ragdoll cats, she had many many kittens at a time, from many queens, all bred outdoors in heated runs so this was a daily routine for me (about 7 years ago). I have witnessed the actual birth first hand a fair few times but only trouble free births aside from one breech kitten. I have guided a farm cat that we inherited through birth a few years ago and have also bottle fed kittens in rescue. I do have experience with british shorthairs as well, but this was when I was much younger and although I remember the births I was not allowed to be too involved ( my mother used to breed many moons back). Again I would say I am a complete novice and I will admit I do not know everything. 
I think given the experience I have I am better prepared than the average person but I do not know anywhere near enough to go for this completely alone. This is when I started to talk to my vet about breeding cats and he told me of his experience and said that he would be willing to treat kittens and do emergency work etc.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

spid said:


> This COULD be an exciting project - BUT it needs at least a good 6 months in detailed planning minimum, I think - otherwise you are going to get to F2 status and no where to go. FInding breeders with the cash to help AND the right ethical attitude might be hard too. ANd you would HAVE to early neuter otherwise these kittens could end up in the wrong hands and in dire conditions once the bybs get a hold.
> 
> Get the panning right, get other breeders on board, draw up aims and objective and what happens when you hit each one. No point starting a new hybrid if it ends up dying out after 4 years due to lack of interest or suitable outcrosses.


 I can't like this post enough spid. You have summed up some of my most massive concerns. X


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> yep agree.
> 
> I think op you have done right thing in asking opinions/advise you can get a lot of breeders input and things you may not have thought of could pop up.
> 
> I also wonder if some of the offspring may have fertility probs as I know some cats do when they are hybrids something to do with the number of chromosomes not matching up I think it is.


 This in theory isn't an issue for sand cat hybrids (practice could be different though ). It is a much more similar cat genetically to a domestic than say a serval. In early generation savannahs and bengals the males are usually sterile.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

You might have answered this question before, I can't remember. 

How did you come about getting one?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> Thank you all for the replies.
> Before we go any further I would like to add that I can see how people would think, from what I have said, that I am trying to monopolise breeding these kittens. The reason that it would only be me breeding to start with is because I would need to check how all the kittens were progressing before deciding if the breed was sustainable, again health and temperament wise.
> 
> I alone would be totally responsible if these kittens fell into the hands of people who wanted to breed them for money, or to another breeder who did not early neuter and relied only on neuter contracts. I would be mortified at the idea of any of these kittens ending up in breeding runs forced to produce litter after litter. This is why I say I would need a breeder I can trust. At the end of the day it would be me who created these cats and if even one was to suffer I will be completely responsible.
> ...


Ah right sorry I only briefly read though.

In that case you would need a group A girl/s
Interesting the brits are the cross to you'd like choose wonder how those offspring would look as brits have small ears and if I remember correctly sand cats have big ears correct me if im wrong.

You mentioned certain colours of the brit would be ideal out of interest what is that.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

There are some pics on OP's visitor page.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Ah right sorry I only briefly read though.
> 
> In that case you would need a group A girl/s
> Interesting the brits are the cross to you'd like choose wonder how those offspring would look as brits have small ears and if I remember correctly sand cats have big ears correct me if im wrong.
> ...


 The ear size is a big problem, the huge sand cat ears is a trait I would not want to lose, however the golden shaded BSHs are stunning and close to a sand cats colour in a way. I would certainly keep one as a pet even if I did not breed. I really love that type of coat colour.

Yes the girl I called about was B blood type and I was worried that if I used her I would need to bottle feed the whole litter for about the first 24 hours. That's if mum wanted them back by then. I would rather not have a distressed queen and kittens that need round the clock care if it's avoidable!

I have considered other crosses but would like to keep the coat as pattern free as possible. I also don't want to add any more wild blood from say a savannah. I like abyssinians but I want a more placid breed as the calmer the kittens are the better.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> The ear size is a big problem, the huge sand cat ears is a trait I would not want to lose, however the golden shaded BSHs are stunning and close to a sand cats colour in a way. I would certainly keep one as a pet even if I did not breed. I really love that type of coat colour.
> 
> Yes the girl I called about was B blood type and I was worried that if I used her I would need to bottle feed the whole litter for about the first 24 hours. That's if mum wanted them back by then. I would rather not have a distressed queen and kittens that need round the clock care if it's avoidable!
> 
> I have considered other crosses but would like to keep the coat as pattern free as possible. I also don't want to add any more wild blood from say a savannah. I like abyssinians but I want a more placid breed as the calmer the kittens are the better.


Ah right you do seem to have put some thought into where you would like to go,maybe choose a golden brit which has a fault for example too big of ears for a bsh breed standard...maybe.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I don't agree with wild crosses, and don't see the need for another new hybrid. 
The beginnings of the Bengal breed is a very sad and tragic tale for the domestics, E.Maus and others used. 

There must be a reason you can't find another Sand Cat to breed with, perhaps zoos or wildlife parks with breeding programs don't think the average joe should be breeding them? Let alone crossing them with domestic cats


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> I don't agree with wild crosses, and don't see the need for another new hybrid.
> The beginnings of the Bengal breed is a very sad and tragic tale for the domestics, E.Maus and others used.
> 
> There must be a reason you can't find another Sand Cat to breed with, perhaps zoos or wildlife parks with breeding programs don't think the average joe should be breeding them? Let alone crossing them with domestic cats


 All sand cats in the UK are descended from 2 pairs brought over. Zoo's do not often trade to private owners, as it has led to some very bad press in the past (I was reading some shocking articles about it just last week).

I have searched but never found another sand cat in private hands. Also in the exotic pet trade you have to be very careful where the animals have come from. Somebody can seem very nice and tell you that they can find you any animal you wish, but it will probably be wild caught and that is a route I do not wish to go down or a trade I will ever support.

I know that in the early stages domestic cats were treated very very badly in the hope of creating a cross. Again this is something I am completely against.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> I have searched but never found another sand cat in private hands. Also in the exotic pet trade you have to be very careful where the animals have come from. Somebody can seem very nice and tell you that they can find you any animal you wish, but it will probably be wild caught and that is a route I do not wish to go down or a trade I will ever support.


How did yours end up in private hands if I may ask?


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> How did yours end up in private hands if I may ask?


 This is something that I have long wondered myself. I first found out about him by accident and decided that I would like to own him even though he was not at all what I was looking for at the time.

He was actually in a pet shop, an exotic pet shop I should add, so not your run off the mill place.

From what I have gathered he was brought over for a private collection from saudi arabia. Once the owner of the collection realised that finding a female was an impossibility he no longer wanted him. From there he was given to the owner of the shop. They could not keep him as they had other animals and obviously he is a huge responsibility on his own. He also can't be kept close to anything he might want to eat or that he is terrified of (if he dislikes how another animal smells he becomes very upset indeed, for example he hates ferrets).

Apparently he was captive bred in 2010 and we acquired him in 2011.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Sorry to be so inquisitive, I'm just very intrigued by this cat. Did you mention on a thread a while back you have to take him to an exotic vet?


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> Sorry to be so inquisitive, I'm just very intrigued by this cat. Did you mention on a thread a while back you have to take him to an exotic vet?


 He has an exotic vet and he has normal vets as well. The local one is more in case of an emergency or to deliver treatment that the exotic vet tells them is safe. The exotic vet is for checking he can have the normal things and if he needs anything specialised. He very rarely see's a vet and so far *touch wood* we have only had routine visits. I use call out as although I could get him into the box and to the vets, I don't think I would be able to get him back in once we got there as he hates new places and he dislikes strangers. He has never hurt anybody at all, and I can pick him up etc, but if he gets stressed he can really show you that he isn't your average house cat. He mostly gets stressed when somebody new is around and he takes a dislike to them, he likes women a lot more than most men as well.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If he is the only sand cat in private hand in the UK then unless you can find some in the right hands in another country I don't think you have an adequate genetic basis - all F1 cats would be full or half sibs. I would also be very wary of using a golden without knowing a lot more about his color. 

You can get some answers if you can take a check swab and send it to Langford and get it tested for everything.


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## Citrineblue (Sep 28, 2012)

This thread is fascinating to follow..... With regards to working from one genetic source as you know is extremely difficult but can be done.

From my understanding all Selkirk Rex cats are from one female known as Miss de Pesto showing a unique mutation in coat type. However the cat characteristics were agreed on early in that a more stocky Rex should be desired and out crosses chosen to enhance that type. Through very careful breeding they now have a low mean Inbreeding co efficient of 0.057 meaning they have a diverse genetic foundation. This did require a lot of breeders agreeing to type and ensuring pedigrees were thoroughly researched to maintain true diversity.

Selkirk Rex: morphological and genetic chara... [J Hered. 2012 Sep-Oct] - PubMed - NCBI


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Yes Selkirk Rex (and Devons and Cornish) all descend from one cat. However the curly gene is a dominant one and so by using outcrosses it was possible to grow the genepool quickly.

I don't think you can compare growing a gene pool with a dominant gene for the trait for the defining characteristic with OP's current situation. Jeri had a group of dedicated founder breeders working with her from the start which you don't - she also knew from previous rex breeds how they had been developed. Pest only had four litters - 1 with a moggie when she escaped and 3 others with Persians. From there those offspring were mated to lots of outcross breeds so even early on there was little 'inbreeding'. She was only mated to one off her offspring once - Noface Oscar Kawalski a mating which provded Pest carried the CP gene. Only one offspring IIRC from that mating ever had kittens so quite early on diversity was achieved.

In fact more inbreeding occurs now with a minority of breeders than ever did at the start!

OP is not breeding for one defining characteristic and also wants the type of the Sand Cat - to achieve that she will need more sand cats or to inbreed heavily to fix type.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I don't think you can compare growing a gene pool with a dominant gene for the trait for the defining characteristic with OP's current situation


Ain't that the truth. Are the traits the OP is looking to retain or create dominant, recessive, polygenic? It isn't as simple as mixing a red cat and a blue cat to get a purple cat. Most hybrid breeds have arisen from completely unexpected results of a cross, you only have to look at Ocicats for that.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Citrineblue said:


> This thread is fascinating to follow..... With regards to working from one genetic source as you know is extremely difficult but can be done.
> 
> From my understanding all Selkirk Rex cats are from one female known as Miss de Pesto showing a unique mutation in coat type. However the cat characteristics were agreed on early in that a more stocky Rex should be desired and out crosses chosen to enhance that type. Through very careful breeding they now have a low mean Inbreeding co efficient of 0.057 meaning they have a diverse genetic foundation. This did require a lot of breeders agreeing to type and ensuring pedigrees were thoroughly researched to maintain true diversity.
> 
> Selkirk Rex: morphological and genetic chara... [J Hered. 2012 Sep-Oct] - PubMed - NCBI


The curly coat is a single gene. The look of a sand cat is all it's genes for size, shape, colour, fur texture... Getting something that looks remotely like it with a single male sand cat strikes me as very, very difficult.

I also feel the sand cat is probably a ticked tabby and an Abysinnian would be a far better match than a BSH. I'm thinking of a heavily barred Aby, not a show stopper.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Whatever breed of domestic cat is used any resultant kittens would probably look like neither parent. They'd be half 'wild' moggies with extremely special (but as yet unknown) requirements. They couldn't be sold or even given away as pets at normal age so without a network of fellow breeders working together they'd all have to be kept by the OP until they were much older than normal for rehoming. You can't send out kittens of unknown temperament to pet homes.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

havoc said:


> Whatever breed of domestic cat is used any resultant kittens would probably look like neither parent. They'd be half 'wild' moggies with extremely special (but as yet unknown) requirements. They couldn't be sold or even given away as pets at normal age so without a network of fellow breeders working together they'd all have to be kept by the OP until they were much older than normal for rehoming. You can't send out kittens of unknown temperament to pet homes.


 I absolutely agree with what you are saying about them not being suitable to find homes for until I know enough to ensure that they are sound and enough to be able to educate prospective owners about the care of these kittens.

I was considering that any kittens might look like neither parent as well. I think it is something you could only ever be able to asses after seeing the resulting kittens and possibly also resulting kittens from other breeds of cat that could make suitable outcrosses.

I have actually received swabs and a form from langford vets, I'm not sure which tests I should be getting done though. I haven't looked through them all yet. I understand the health tests, but I'm not sure if the genetic tests for colour would apply, although they would show some kind of result, what if he was carrying things that the tests could not pick up? Or something that produces a similar colour to an existing cat coat but it produced this pattern with a different gene than what is the norm? ( I hope that makes sense). I could always submit a sample and have some health tests performed as I read that they keep the sample for 2 years, and then request more tests if I needed them later. I would actually be interested in doing this even if I did not have any kittens from him.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

And here is a picture of him taken this morning. I'm in part of his run and the area he is in has a door that leads out to where I'm standing, but for some reason he likes to climb behind the curtain to watch what I'm doing. His ear doesn't usually look like that either, its just bent over because it is on the wire. As you can see from the picture he is actually quite small.


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

I am amazed that this hasn't been attempted before, when I google Sand Cat Hybrid there is discussion site on mating a BSH or Bengal with a Sand cat and it then goes into bizarre suggestions of using Munchkins and tea cup Persians but it seems nothing was attempted.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> when I google Sand Cat Hybrid there is discussion site on mating a BSH or Bengal with a Sand cat and it then goes into bizarre suggestions of using Munchkins and tea cup Persians but it seems nothing was attempted.


Not attempted or not successful? I can only pray it's the former.


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

havoc said:


> Not attempted or not successful? I can only pray it's the former.


From what I could gather after reading it through, an attempt with a Bengal mixed in with lots of really dreadful advice from others such as not letting the breeder of the potential queen know what its for in case they refuse. Someone thought a Singapura would be an ideal breed to cross with a Sand cat but I'm not sure why.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Aurelie said:


> From what I could gather after reading it through, an attempt with a Bengal mixed in with lots of really dreadful advice from others such as not letting the breeder of the potential queen know what its for in case they refuse. Someone thought a Singapura would be an ideal breed to cross with a Sand cat but I'm not sure why.


Was certainly an interesting discussion.

A cream brit was suggested but wouldn't have been a good choice colour wise as kits would be red not a sandy colour,so singapura was suggested but there are hard to come by so abbysinion (sp) was suggested.Chinchilla was too but the person didn't want the flat face trait.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> He has an exotic vet and he has normal vets as well. The local one is more in case of an emergency or to deliver treatment that the exotic vet tells them is safe. The exotic vet is for checking he can have the normal things and if he needs anything specialised. He very rarely see's a vet and so far *touch wood* we have only had routine visits. I use call out as although I could get him into the box and to the vets, I don't think I would be able to get him back in once we got there as he hates new places and he dislikes strangers. He has never hurt anybody at all, and I can pick him up etc, but if he gets stressed he can really show you that he isn't your average house cat. He mostly gets stressed when somebody new is around and he takes a dislike to them, he likes women a lot more than most men as well.


While I admire how much thought you have put into this, yours is a cat that was never meant to be in captivity. How are you going to breed that out? There is only one in private hands that you can trace. There is obviously a reason these cats have not been domesticated and crossed.

They also made hybrid wolves. Look where that led. For the most part they are not able to be with people or other animals and are in sanctuaries.

This is an experiment. Unfortunately you would be experimenting with lives in order to achieve a certain looking cat. You don't even know if it would work. Sounds like a very bad idea the more I think about it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I really can't get a grasp on the objective. Is it to create a sand cat? If so why? They already exist and they aren't great pets. If there was some unique trait expected out of some cross with a domestic cat I'd understand it but I'm not getting that so far.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Let's be fair though. With most of the hybrids, the first cats used were never meant to be in captivity. I think the cat fancy is very quick to say no, and not quick enough to say "Ok, it's very far fetched, but here's what you need to consider and get together before you start". As for the kittens' heads being too broad, well the same could be said of Persians, Exotics and BSH, but still, they're bred, and many births go just fine.

In terms of only breeding from one male, I think this is the sticking point for me at the moment. As Soupie said, had it been just to focus on one trait then fair enough, but as you're wanting to produce his exact phenotype, you really do need more than one to start off. now, I know you've said that zoos won't sell to private collections, but would they allow you to stud with one of their boys? If so, that widens your gene pool immediately, doesn't it? might be worth exploring that, as without another specimine, you really haven't got firm ground to start on. To put the type in with only one male, you'd need to line breed daughter back to dad which might stamp a bit more type, but will get you no closer to that domestic personality that you seek as would the first mating of the unrelated cat. Furthermore, what do you do when she has a kitten? If it's a girl, then she'd need to be bred back again. If a boy, then even if bred with another kitten, the mating genetics are just too close. There's line breeding and there's in-breeding, and unfortunately, with only one boy, you'd end up doing the latter.

So for now, I wouldn't say no, not at all. What I'd say is that you need to lay more ground work before embarking ont this very exciting adventure.

I'd suggest colour testing him anyway. Bear in mind that I can't see the pictures, but have you been able to name his colour or pattern yet? Ideally, you need to know this so that you can only work with cats who approximate this as closely as possible.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

<snip>
I really can't get a grasp on the objective. Is it to create a sand cat? If so why? They already exist and they aren't great pets. If there was some unique trait expected out of some cross with a domestic cat I'd understand it but I'm not getting that so far.
<snip>
Leopards exist and aren't great pets, yet we have the look-a-likes. Then you have the Savannas. Then the Toygers. On that basis, the argument is flawed. Plenty of people like the look of a cat and want to breed that into a pet, otherwise the above breeds wouldn't exist either.

Every time you breed, don't you breed for looks as well as temperament? Every one of us are striving fo that perfect cat, the one who fits the SOP most closely, has no genetic defects and has a temperament to die for. Don't we pet most of the cats we breed who don't conform closely enough to the SOP?

I think the super trait from a cross with a domestic that the OP is looking for is the personality.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Leopards exist and aren't great pets, yet we have the look-a-likes


Yes we do but they aren't leopard crosses. If the objective is to breed a domestic cat which looks like a sand cat is it necessary to start with a sand cat?


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

carly87 said:


> I think the super trait from a cross with a domestic that the OP is looking for is the personality.


If personality is the trait desired, why would one start with a wild species?


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

I haven't gone anywhere, my laptop shut down unexpectedly while I was just finishing a massively lengthy post. Typical. Will work on typing it up again.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Lots of very interesting points form both sides of the fence. Interesting indeed.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

I will just let you all know, hopefully before my laptop shuts down again, that my charger has decided to stop working properly. My battery isn't charging at all and the connection from the charger is so bad it cuts out and then turns off as there is no battery life left. I will get a new one tomorrow when the local computer shop is open again. I may be able to post replies on my phone though, but will have to see and they may be much shorter.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

To be fair, I don't know what a sand cat looks like. Do we have anything similar? Again, please bare in mind that I can't see the pictures.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

carly87 said:


> ...please [bear] in mind that I can't see the pictures.


Can U see photos on Google Images?

if so, i'd search for "sand cat".


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Can U see photos on Google Images?
> 
> if so, i'd search for "sand cat".


Carlys blind LFL - she needs a description


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Here is a link that describes this species and gives lots of information as to habitat, appearance, etc. Even if you can't view the pictures there's good descriptions.

Sand Cat | Pictures of Cats


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

This is the description from Wiki, Carly

The sand cat is a small, stocky cat with short legs and a relatively long tail. The fur is of a pale sandy color usually without spots or stripes. The lower and upper lips, chin, throat and belly are white. The ears are tawny brown at the base with a black tip. The lower part of the face is whitish, and a faint reddish line runs from the outer corner of each eye, angling down across the cheek. The large and greenish yellow eyes are surrounded by a white ring, and the naked tip of the nose is black. There are blackish bars on the limbs, and the tail has a black tip with two or three dark rings alternating with buff bands. In northern regions, the sand cat's winter coat can be very long and thick, with hairs reaching up to 2 in (5.1 cm) in length.[6]

Its head and body length ranges from 39 to 52 cm (15 to 20 in), with a 23.2 to 31 cm (9.1 to 12 in) long tail. It weighs from 1.35 to 3.2 kg (3.0 to 7.1 lb). The auditory bullae and the passages from the external ears to the ear drums are greatly enlarged relative to other small felids. The undersides of the paws are protected from extreme temperatures by a thick covering of fur. The head is broad. The pinna of the ears is triangular, and the ear canal is very wide, giving the cat an enhanced sense of hearing.[7] The ears are large and more pointed than in the manul.[6] They are set low, giving a broad flat appearance to the head.[5] This trait may protect the inner ears from wind-blown sand and aid detection of movements of subterranean prey. A highly developed hearing capacity is important for locating prey, which is not only sparsely distributed in arid environments, but also found underground.[3]

The long hairs growing between its toes create a cushion of fur over the foot pads, helping to insulate them while moving over hot sand. The claws on the hind feet are small and blunt, and combined with the fur over the foot pads, makes the animal's tracks obscure and difficult to follow.[6] The sand cat's claws are not very sharp, as there is little opportunity to sharpen them in the desert; impressions of the claws are often visible in the tracks.[3]


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

carly87 said:


> To be fair, I don't know what a sand cat looks like. Do we have anything similar? Again, please bare in mind that I can't see the pictures.


 Why can't you see pictures? is it just on here? Sorry if I have missed something, if you google "sand cat" or "african sand cat" in images you will see them, they all look about the same.


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## muffin789 (Jan 28, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> Why can't you see pictures? is it just on here? Sorry if I have missed something, if you google "sand cat" or "african sand cat" in images you will see them, they all look about the same.


See #72 taflc


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

I had no idea carly. Sorry for the reply, I'm struggling here with a laptop on the blink and I did not get chance to read everything.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> The long hairs growing between its toes create a cushion of fur over the foot pads, helping to insulate them while moving over hot sand. The claws on the hind feet are small and blunt, and combined with the fur over the foot pads, makes the animal's tracks obscure and difficult to follow.[6] The sand cats claws are not very sharp, as there is little opportunity to sharpen them in the desert; impressions of the claws are often visible in the tracks.[3]


 I would just like to add that not all of these things are true in my experience. The entire foot (even pads) is covered with a coat of bristle like fur. Also the claws are incredibly large. The front claws are slightly more hooked than a normal cat but the back claws are almost straight with a sharp underside. I will just add that I do not trim them, although I think he would let me, I think that it would be bad form on my part to do this. He has scratching opportunities but will only use wood or stone and has never shown an interest in a scratching post (except as something to spray up!).

I have also read online that sand cats being a species that mostly lives on the ground are bad at climbing and jumping. In the case of my sand cat this is not true at all and he is more nimble and agile than any other cat I have met.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> (except as something to spray up!).[/B]


How are the both of you handling this by the way? It can't be easy living with a sexually frustrated wild animal.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MCWillow said:


> Carly's blind, LFL - she needs a description


Ah! :001_smile: _Now,_ i perceive! 
[heh-heh, U thought i'd say, "now i see..."  Read the "Mother Tongue" sci-fi trilogy for clues.]


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> I would just like to add that not all of these things are true in my experience. The entire foot (even pads) is covered with a coat of bristle like fur. Also the claws are incredibly large. The front claws are slightly more hooked than a normal cat but the back claws are almost straight with a sharp underside. I will just add that I do not trim them, although I think he would let me, I think that it would be bad form on my part to do this. He has scratching opportunities but will only use wood or stone and has never shown an interest in a scratching post (except as something to spray up!).
> 
> *I have also read online that sand cats being a species that mostly lives on the ground are bad at climbing and jumping. In the case of my sand cat this is not true at all and he is more nimble and agile than any other cat I have met*.


Can I ask you again (I understand you have pc problems, so may not have seen my previous post) - is it ethical to breed a sand cat to a domestic cat, when they are different species?


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

I know you've probably posted this in another thread as well, but what the heck do you feed him? :lol:

Here is something cut from the link I posted which talks about their appetite.

"Sand cats have big appetites.* In captivity one cat was fed 15 mice and would have eaten more if given them*.* Normally they eat about 10% of their body weight per night.* Perhaps a good proportion of this is burned off on hunting, judging by the distances traveled to find prey".

What kind of habitat do they require in captivity? It seems they would need a lot of space like an outdoor enclosure with a big sand box. Doesn't he want to roam, especially being intact? I am seriously asking out of genuine curiosity.


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## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

This thread makes for interesting reading.

I'm not knowledgeable about breeding but for me, I don't see the benefits either, especially with them being technically another species.

I find it difficult to understand why you would want a Sand Cat- for all they are beautiful- given that they need very specific care. For me, if you're having to change humidity and they're unable to live in a normal domestic setup, they're not really meant to be kept as pets. [Yes, I understand other species such as reptiles and fish are similar but you're able to simulate their natural habitats more readily through tanks and vivariums. You can't create a desert in your home!]

I guess that breeding them with domestic cats may reduce their need to live in hot, humid environments but given that it's only you at the moment, I don't find it a very compelling idea :blushing:


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> I know you've probably posted this in another thread as well, but what the heck do you feed him? :lol:
> 
> Here is something cut from the link I posted which talks about their appetite.
> 
> ...


 I will reply to this first as it is far easier to answer.

My sand cat has no "off" button. He will eat and eat and eat. This is common in wild animals where prey is scarce and they would need to gorge themselves if they stumbled upon a borrow or nest.

Mine would eat until he is unwell. I give him a set amount of food a day and only deffer from this if he seems to be losing or gaining weight. I use a body score similar to what a vet would use. I see if I can feel the ribs, feel down his back and check his overall look. If I feel he is too thin then I start to up his feed and for too fat I lower it. In most captive wildcats over feeding and the cats being overweight is more common than under feeding.

His diet is mostly mice, rats and chicks. He has whole raw prey and this so far has served him well. I sometimes give him quail or other small rodents for a change and he will have chicken wings too. I feed a whole prey diet as it is easy for him to understand this food and seems more natural. When I clean his litter tray his poops are usually dry and odorless. His teeth are perfect (I check occasionally as poor dental health is common in captive wildcats). The raw diet is fantastic even for domestic cats. I won't lie though, if this is all you feed the cost can quickly escalate.

He has an outdoor run that is pretty substantial and he chooses to spend more time there than indoors. I think it is really important to allow him his own space where he can do "wild cat" things.

I do not give him a sand area. We did try this a long time ago, but as he is litter trained he spent no time at all digging in it, but instead treated it as one big litter tray.

I hope that has covered the basics.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> Can I ask you again (I understand you have pc problems, so may not have seen my previous post) - is it ethical to breed a sand cat to a domestic cat, when they are different species?


 This I have been struggling to write a reply to. I do not yet know if it is ethical I only know that there is probably a right and wrong way to go about this.

I was about to write a long post about the previous poor ethics that were demonstrated when creating the bengal and savannah by some (NOT ALL BY ANY MEANS) breeders in early generations but I felt it was too upsetting to post here. I do not agree with some of the ways hybrids were created in the past.

In the past large male wild cats were put with domestic females and the resulting matings were sometimes fatal. Again as said I absolutely do not agree with this.

I think the question of ethically crossing wild cats to domestic all boils down to if any animals suffer during the process or if it is done simply to line somebody's pockets. Obviously a sand cat, being small would be much more similar to a domestic mating compared to using a much larger wild species.

I honestly cannot say if this would be completely ethical because somebody can always start with the best of intentions but if kittens ended up in the wrong hands it could rapidly escalate to unregistered breeding simply to make quick easy money and turn the idea into another pet trend.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> Well I have asked twice now on the ethics of breeding two separate species - guess I won't get an answer on it, which kind of speaks for itself.


 Sorry I was writing the reply but not as quickly as I had hoped. x


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> *I think the question of ethically crossing wild cats to domestic all boils down to if any animals suffer during the process* or if it is done simply to line somebody's pockets. Obviously a sand cat, being small would be much more similar to a domestic mating compared to using a much larger wild species.
> 
> *I honestly cannot say if this would be completely ethical *because somebody can always start with the best of intentions but if kittens ended up in the wrong hands it could rapidly escalate to unregistered breeding simply to make quick easy money* and turn the idea into another pet trend.*


But unless you can answer the question of ethics with an emphatic _yes_, why would you do it? You can't guarantee there won't be suffering from the very beginning when you can't say for sure they'll even be born normally.

Of course people would turn the idea into another pet trend. Then they would realize the special care and habitat needed and many of these 'pets' will end up in zoos or wildcat sanctuaries.

See the thread up in general chat about domesticated foxes.  I also know someone with a wolf hybrid rescue, it takes a lot of work to have these animals. Why do people want to breed a different species into a domestic animal? Certainly it's not for the benefit of the species.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

No apology needed - just thought the question was being ignored - so apologies for being impatient!! :blush:

I think you will run into problems, purely because the sand cat is so rare. You personally would have to find 4 or 5 girls and least one other boy, to start a proper breeding programme, where the cats arent being interbred wouldn't you?

You would have to keep all of the kittens from the first breedings, just to see how they grow and develop into adults, to properly gauge their temperaments and how they grow.

Then surely you would have to keep the kittens bred from your first generation hybrids, for the same reason.

You would have to keep generation, after generation of kittens, until you got what you were looking for - a sand cat hybrid that could be adopted as a family pet, without specialist care.

Tha sand cat is now protected in many areas, I would hope if any kind of breeding programme involved them, it would be to keep the breed we currently have.

By the same token I really dislike that people have bred hybrid lions and tigers. Give it a cute name (Liger I think) and show pics of cute cubs, and so many people think its OK - they are beautiful animals in their own right, why try and be 'better' than Mother Nature?


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Sorry if this is slow or mistyped. I'm on my phone now. I think that no breeder if any animal can give a one hundred percent guarantee that no animal they have ever bred will not suffer. I think all good breeders understand that you need to do your best to prevent this but once any cat or kitten has left your care it us up to the new owners to ensure the creatures safety. Even early neutered cats can end up in the wrong hands, let alone unspayed cats with breeding potential. It is an ethical minefield for all breeders. You want to be responsible for any animal you create but at the same time you cannot do much if you lose contact.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> Sorry if this is slow or mistyped. I'm on my phone now. I think that no breeder if any animal can give a one hundred percent guarantee that no animal they have ever bred will not suffer. I think all good breeders understand that you need to do your best to prevent this but once any cat or kitten has left your care it us up to the new owners to ensure the creatures safety. Even early neutered cats can end up in the wrong hands, let alone unspayed cats with breeding potential. It is an ethical minefield for all breeders. You want to be responsible for any animal you create but at the same time you cannot do much if you lose contact.


I agree 100% with what you have written above - but that isn't what I was asking......


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> I think that no breeder if any animal can give a one hundred percent guarantee that no animal they have ever bred will not suffer.I think all good breeders understand that you need to do your best to prevent this but once any cat or kitten has left your care it us up to the new owners to ensure the creatures safety. Even early neutered cats can end up in the wrong hands, let alone unspayed cats with breeding potential. It is an ethical minefield for all breeders. You want to be responsible for any animal you create but at the same time you cannot do much if you lose contact.


You are comparing breeding cats to breeding a domestic cat to a wild cat, two different species. There is no ethical comparison.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I've just looked at some images of sand cats and personally I don't like them - they look mean.

However, I appreciate that this is my opinion an others will think differently. BUT - I can't see why you want to do it in the first place - there are millions of cats out there - why create a new variety. 

Just sayin'


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Thanks for the description, folks. It sounds like a bi-colour but with tabby only evident on the points from the description. Would others agree? if so, this is going to be very, very hard to reproduce.

As for matings, have you been able to see footage of two sandcats mating? Mating is violent enough in two domestics, but if it is more-so in the sandcats, then you may have the same death and injury results on your hands.

Regardless of what's been said so far, you still come back to the same problem. You only have one. One isn't enough to breed for type no matter how hard you try. So before you even can think about going further, you need to source your other sandcats.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

carly87 said:


> Thanks for the description, folks. It sounds like a bi-colour but with tabby only evident on the points from the description. Would others agree? if so, this is going to be very, very hard to reproduce.


Very muscular, much smaller than than most cats, with a wide head and large wide set ears and of course more 'wild' looking. They are beautiful cats IMO. But I don't personally believe they should be domesticated for human 'pets'.

OP got her cat from a pet store from someone who gave him up, and he's the only one in private hands that she can find.

I commend her for taking this cat from the awful life he no doubt had prior to finding her 

One question that hasn't been answered is how does OP cope with having an intact wild male cat in captivity?


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> Very muscular, much smaller than than most tabbies, with a wide head and large wide set ears and of course more 'wild' looking. They are beautiful cats IMO. But I don't personally believe they should be domesticated for human 'pets'.
> 
> OP got her cat from a pet store from someone who gave him up, and he's the only one in private hands that she can find.
> 
> ...


 I won't lie. He sprays and he smells like death warmed up. I have smelt entire tom cats before and this does not compare to what an entire male wildcat smells like. It is pungent to put it mildly.

I think that he probably copes better than the average entire male or stud as in the wild african sand cats would rarely meet and if they did matings would be brief.

I treat him as an individual and so far he has never shown any signs of being unhappy. He does call but apparently this is common even in cat's kept in pairs in the zoo.

Another fact you might be interested in is that sand cats bark. They don't meow. I have been meaning to get a recording for some time as I can't find one.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Not a bi colour Carly - that would be far too much white. Some seem to have the normal white you get on a basic tabby only (specs/ ear rims/ chin) and others have a white chest. I've seen pictures of mackerel, spotted or ticked tabby, all with greater barring on the legs especially the first two barrs which are jet black and strong. Barring over the majority of the rest of the body is much more subtle in most.etc. Not uniform at all. 

Almond shaped eyes, with black rims (as well as the white spectacles) - could indicate an inhibitor gene at work - maybe it is golden. Mouth has a black inner to lips too. Nose is brick as it should be in tabbies but with a black rim too. All 
eyes seem to be green in colour, most pale almost aqua like. 

Almost an oval shaped head, reminiscent of Devon rexes, especially in kittens. Large widely spaced ears. Head looks over large in proportion to the body in the pics I've seen, but could be an illusion because of the widely spaced ears on an oval head.No heavy muzzle, but long and narrow. NO sharp nose break but a gentle slope. Very small whisker pads but wide cheeks (but not jowls like BSH).

Colours seem to range from apricot to fawn to caramel to light sand colour - but photos aren't always the easiest to tell by - all with the black tabby markings. The ticked tabby looking ones are missing the "M" on their foreheads. 

Tail is long and well marked but quite skinny in most of the photos - though there is one with a bushy tail. 

Body is rectangular, no extreme and seems well muscled. Not quite as cobby as a BSH. Heavy boned legs by the look of it. Looks like there may be a few different strains.

Hope that helps a bit.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> Another fact you might be interested in is that sand cats bark. They don't meow. I have been meaning to get a recording for some time as I can't find one.


I read about that in one of the links. I think this thread is fascinating. It's nice that it's both civil and informative.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

spid mentioned potential different strains, there are 6 different sub species of african sand cat. They live over such a vast expanse that they cover east africa through the middle east and even some parts of asia. Differences between them are very hard to pinpoint but there are subtle changes depending on where they are from.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Why do you want to create a hybrid breed?

Is it because yours brings you so much joy you want others to enjoy it on an easier level?

Its kind of like Bengals - you can get some diamonds, but then you get the ones that have more of the 'wild' genes. These cats need very special owners, ones that understand and appreciate what they are taking on.

I do fear, that a sand cat hybrid would turn into a 'status' cat - a bit like staffies have turned into a 'status' dog.

They will (or could) attract the kind of owner that doesnt give a fig about the animal, just about how owning the animal makes them look to their peer group 

I do agree with what you said about breeders not having any control of what the new owners do - but saying that, I guess you would not have quite so many worries about someone paying £400 for a Ragdoll or a Golden Retriever, as you maybe would about someone paying the same amount for a Sand Cat or a Staffy - Ragdolls and Golden Retrievers are (mainly) bought for the love of the breed - unfortunately some breeds are just bought for the breeding potential, or 'ego' boost


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

carly87 said:


> [The sand-cat] sounds like a bi-colour, but with tabby only evident on the points from the description.
> Would others agree? if so, this is going to be very, very hard to reproduce.


The tail is a thick, round, densely-furred otter tail, but ends in a blunt round tip - not an otter's tapered point.
The slightly-longer hair on the tail is so dense, it has a slight bottle-brush appearance. The upper tail 
is more densely & darkly ticked; the last fourth has a rapidly-darkening smoke to black tip.

The body coat is short, fine, & very dense, with a plush appearance; longer on the spine & sides, 
flanks & shoulders, very short on the breast & legs, with slight petticoats & longer belly hair.

The entire haircoat that isn't countershaded pale [the underside] is ticked; the hair is darker along the spine,
as the ticking is both denser on each hair & darker in color.
The whole underbody, whisker pads, cheeks, chin, throat, breast, belly, & inner legs, are ashy cream.
The upper body is overall, buff, fading to the underside & at the wrists / hocks - paws are ashy cream.

The upper body has a cream undercoat & base color on the hair-shafts, ticked with pale buff, clay, red,
or fox-grey; there are light tabby stripes on the sides & back, not only the legs & points, but they're widely
separated - not moire pattern, but not the near-tiger stripes we think of as classic tabby.

Whiskers are cream; inner edges of the ears have long pale hairs, but the opening is nude.
Head is wide, a flattened wedge - large eyes, set frontally & level; they're pale gold to deep gold.

Dark half-bracelets decorate the upper arms. The outer-edges & backs of the pinnae are rich fawn, 
with a reddish tinge; light chocolate pencil markings camouflage the eyes, out across the cheek.
The face is heavily-ticked cream, shading to fawn down the nose; the leather can be smudge gray,
rose brick, dark brick, or charcoal, all with a darker contrasting edge meeting the fine short pale hair. 
The eyes are are lined with near-black mascara - pigmented edges of the lids, not hair. Lips are black, 
& tight.

The face can have more distinct or faded markings, a partial M on the brow; ticking can be bands of red, 
grey, buff, fawn, sand, or clay. Individuals can be pale biscuit stripes on a cream ground, or fox grey 
ticked on a pale fawn ground, or deeper fawn ticked stripes on a biscuit ground - IOW, overall darker, 
or overall paler.

The ears are wide at the base, widely set, & angle outward; the ear is long, with a rounded tip, 
& no tuft; the inner edge of the ear is longer than the distance from the inside-base of the ear 
to the inner-corner of the eye, below. Pronounced stop at the eye break; nose & forehead in profile 
are parallel. Chin is small & flat; mouth wide, jaw deep, & teeth very long in relation to the skull size. 
Whisker pads are pronounced, & males have a longer forward-facing near-ruff, framing the face - 
the head is a strong oval in both sexes, with 2/3 of the the ears breaking that oval outline.

They are compact, slightly cobby, well-proportioned, but the head appears a bit too large & too wide;
the muttonchops exaggerate this further. Legs are relatively short, but muscular, tho the bone is not 
heavy. The body is a near-cylindrical oval, deeper top to bottom than side to side; deepest at the heart girth.
Thighs are deep & very well-muscled, as are the shoulders. Paws are round, high knuckled; the claw tips 
are visible even when retracted on the forepaws. A fringe of sparse long hair edges the underside of the 
paws, when they stand.

In terms of color & pattern, an Abby or Siamese type comes close, particularly a Lynx-point 
apple-head Siamese with some fawn ticking. These are Lynx-points:


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> The tail is a thick, round, densely-furred otter tail, but ends in a blunt round tip - not an otter's tapered point.
> The slightly-longer hair on the tail is so dense, it has a slight bottle-brush appearance. The upper tail
> is more densely & darkly ticked; the last fourth has a rapidly-darkening smoke to black tip.
> 
> ...


the cat you have put up are seal tabby cp by the looks of it of it,which pic has some fawn ticking?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> the [cats] you've put up are seal tabby ==> cps <=== by the looks of [them],
> which pic has some fawn ticking?


all 5 are Lynx-points; the amount of ticking, stripes, & open body vary in each.
The 2nd photo down has more ruddy ticking - the others are mostly grey & black ticking 
on cream, making a grey-tabby effect.

The 1st pic is a chocolate Lynx.
The queen seated on the mosaic table has the least ticking & most open body.
The male lying with his tail toward the camera has the densest ticking of all, on his body.

What's 'c p s'?


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

A bushy tail is not normal. Although some can have thicker fur on the tail, mine has a skinny spindley excuse for a tail  It can puff up to quite a size though, but I haven't seen him this upset in a long while.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

This is a Lynx ....

Lynx, Lynx Pictures, Lynx Facts - National Geographic

They were re-introduced in Colorado some years ago. There have been sightings in my area, tho I never had the pleasure of seeing one in person.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> A *bushy* tail is not normal.
> Although some can have thicker fur on the tail, mine has a skinny spindley excuse for a tail
> It can puff up to quite a size, tho, but I haven't seen him this upset in a long while.


sorry, it's hard to describe; i was referring to the density of the hairs per square-inch, they grow thickly
& are slightly longer than the hair on the body - giving the impression that the hair "stands off" the tail, 
with an somewhat open appearance, rather than a sleek closed surface.

Does that make more sense? 
Not a literal bottle-brush, like an angry or terrified cat - just a thick, dense, round tail.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> all 5 are Lynx-points; the amount of ticking, stripes, & open body vary in each.
> The 2nd photo down has more ruddy ticking - the others are mostly grey & black ticking
> on cream, making a grey-tabby effect.
> 
> ...


Hard to say from pics alone I would have said those cats are all tabby points.

CP is colourpoint.

Could be a chocy pt in there they are very close to seal heres my choc tabbt pt.


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## thatsafunnylookingcat (Apr 21, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> Why do you want to create a hybrid breed?
> 
> Is it because yours brings you so much joy you want others to enjoy it on an easier level?
> 
> ...


 I'm not sure that they would turn into a status cat. I'm unsure also what you mean by that. I know in dogs it is usually breeds that have been used as fighting dogs in the past or associated breeds, that they buy with the idea of an image. With a cat I can't really see anything similar.

Yes, with regards to breeding, it would be so that others could enjoy all the best parts of a sand cat, without having the worry, difficulty or responsibility of a wild animal in their home.

I have come across many people who are intrigued and in awe of him. I have had lots of people offering to buy him and asking for kittens or if I could instruct them on how to get their own sand cat. A lot of these people do not really understand what it would actually take to own one, all they see is a small cat and in their minds I think they believe it can't be too different from a domestic cat. What I would like to do is create a manageable counterpart to the sand cat, with as much of the unique traits as possible but without some of the more difficult care requirements or the typical, difficult, wildcat nature.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> What I would like to do is create a manageable counterpart to the sand cat, with as much of the unique traits as possible but without some of the more difficult care requirements or the typical, difficult, wildcat nature.


Would you necessarily need to have a sand cat in order to accomplish this?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> CP is colourpoint.


Solid Siamese-points are the classics: Seal, dilute Blue; & Chocolate, dilute Lilac.

Color-point Siamese include Red (Flame-point), Cream, Apricot, Cinnamon, Caramel & Fawn - 
not all are 'recognized' colors per all registries, either.

Lynx-points & Tortoiseshell-points have patterned points, so color is a modifier of the pattern, Lynx.
Tortie can contain more red, more buff, or more black - so has a wide range of contrast & pigments.

From Siamese Cat Colors



> _
> 
> The CFA classifies the other colors - Red (Flame), Apricot, Cream, Cinnamon, Caramel and Fawn points,
> as well as all the Tortie & Tabby (Lynx) varieties - as 'Colorpoint Shorthair' hybrid cats.
> ...


Specific to Lynx AKA Tabby-point:


> _
> 
> The Tabby or Lynx Point colors
> The Lynx-Point or Tabby-Point colors came about through mating a purebred Seal-point Siamese
> ...


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Solid Siamese-points are the classics: Seal, dilute Blue; & Chocolate, dilute Lilac.
> 
> Color-point Siamese include Red (Flame-point), Cream, Apricot, Cinnamon, Caramel & Fawn -
> not all are 'recognized' colors per all registries, either.
> ...


yep I get all that.....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> yep, I get all that...  ...


well, obviously others didn't grok it, or we wouldn't have a link to info on an approx 25# native wildcat,
the Lynx of N-America, which is a specialized predator on snowshoe hares.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> well, obviously others didn't grok it, or we wouldn't have a link to info on an approx 25# native wildcat,
> the Lynx of N-America, which is a specialized predator on snowshoe hares.


My point was that it's another wildcat, the same species I believe as the sand cat. One that I wouldn't want to see hybridized.  I didn't see any resemblance to a sand cat in the colorpoint pics you posted either btw. 

We also have mountain lions here.  and I have seen one....from a distance.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> My point was that it's another wildcat... One that I wouldn't want to see hybridized.
> I didn't see any resemblance to a sand cat in the colorpoint pics you posted either btw.


i'm wounded. :cryin: No-one appreciates the hard work i've done, poring over pages of Siamese pics, avoiding 
the ax-faced bats who impersonate Siamese in the fancy, passing by the lavender-eyed Flame-points 
& trying to ignore Seal-points with eyes as blue as October skies, all to find various compatible Lynx types 
with ticked coats...

i type my fingers to the cuticles, & for *what*?... :sniffle: *Criticism!...* :waah:
.
.
.
.
.
. i'll go pout, now. C U later.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> i'm wounded. :cryin: No-one appreciates the hard work i've done, poring over pages of Siamese pics, avoiding
> the ax-faced bats who impersonate Siamese in the fancy, passing by the lavender-eyed Flame-points
> & trying to ignore Seal-points with eyes as blue as October skies, all to find various compatible Lynx types
> with ticked coats...
> ...


:lol: Not to take it too off topic but more specifically it's the Canadian Lynx that we find here. One was spotted just a few miles away.

Canada Lynx - National Wildlife Federation


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> Not attempted or not successful? I can only pray it's the former.


Assuming the person on the other forum posting about mating is the same as this one (that posters other cats happen to have the same name and breeds as this poster and happens to live in the UK and purchased the SC from an exotic pet shop) there was a mating between the Sand Cat and a Chinchilla cross who became pregnant and was posted about July 6th as starting to fill out.

If not the same person, then there's another privately owned Sand Cat in the UK you may be able to contact by that forum with your breeding ideas...


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ooooo, you sleuth!


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I just found a sandcat breeder via google, though not in the UK.

I think there are a few traits already mentioned that would be challenging for future owners to manage - tendency to overeat, possibility of respiratory issues, territorial behaviour and spraying. Elsewhere on the web it is described as "fragile", and "hard to keep alive". 

I can't think that a persian is the best cross for this experiment but it seems to be done now.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> I'm not sure that they would turn into a status cat. I'm unsure also what you mean by that. I know in dogs it is usually breeds that have been used as fighting dogs in the past or associated breeds, that they buy with the idea of an image. With a cat I can't really see anything similar.
> 
> Yes, with regards to breeding, it would be so that others could enjoy all the best parts of a sand cat, without having the worry, difficulty or responsibility of a wild animal in their home.
> 
> I have come across many people who are intrigued and in awe of him. I have had lots of people offering to buy him and asking for kittens or if I could instruct them on how to get their own sand cat. A lot of these people do not really understand what it would actually take to own one, all they see is a small cat and in their minds I think they believe it can't be too different from a domestic cat. What I would like to do is create a manageable counterpart to the sand cat, with as much of the unique traits as possible but without some of the more difficult care requirements or the typical, difficult, wildcat nature.


By status cat I mean anyone with more money than sense that wants one just because its rare.

If people are intrigued and want a domesticated wild cat wouldnt it be more responsible to point them towards Bengals or Savannah Cats - the ones that have already been hybridised, instead of trying to hybridise another wild cat?

Hybrid Cat Facts, Photos, Videos, Stories


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

This has played on my mind so much I actually dreamt about it. ANd I can to these dream conclusions.

Selkirks were indeed derived from one foundation cat BUT only one gene was wanted to be replicated - the curly gene. As it was dominant this was relatively easy. Looking at Mis DE Pesto (that first naturally occurring cat) she looks absolutely nothing like our modern day Selkirks. It took a lot of hard work and cooperation with lots of breeders etc to make the one breed that relied on the one foundation gene. 

With sand cats you are after so many different genes being replicated that I am stumped as to how you are going to go about it. Basically you want a sand cat with a personality implant and less need for specialised conditions, food etc. I just can't see how you are going to maintain 'coat type' without using Somali type cats (and not sure if Somali have golden) and body type you need a bad BSH, and facially you need Devons Rexs. All of these are going to introduce (potentially) undesirable genes. Rexs the dominant curly gene. BSH and SOmali can carry long hair, the golden gene isn't fully understood yet and you may end up with silvers instead. The strange variation in tabby markings and what looks like a very specific white spotting gene (which may be new again - from either the normal white spotting gene or the Birman white gloving gene) are going to be hard to replicate. 

I wonder how many generations of these cats you are going to have to produce, that you will ned to provide specific conditions for - and you say they are solitary animals with a large range, before you even get to one that doesn't need special conditions. Say you manage to get another male (without which I think you fail immediately) so you have your first male mated to 3 queens (to get a good representative sample of kittens - to see type etc), each queen has 4 kittens - that's 12 cats you need to house in specific conditions now. YOu take 3 of those girls (assuming there are three good ones) and mate them to your second male - 4 more kittens each. ANd you now have 26 cats. All possibly needing very specialised housing and feeding. Maybe none of these are going to be able to be rehomed to a 'normal' family. They may still be too wild. SO you have 24 F1 kittens. YOu now know if a) any deformities are occurring beyond a normal variance b) you are able to study how they grow and develop. YO can work out whether you need a different domestic cat in the mix to lay down different traits. SO you may have started with a BSH golden as they are the nearest colour wise, but now you have lost the strong barring (present in Abbysinians) and the face and ear shape. SO you have a choice of what breed to add next into the mix. 

SO you take your F1 girls and you go down the Abyssinian route because you really want to steer clear of that dominant curly gene in the Devons. Colouring comes back but the body shape lengthens too much, however ears are a bit better, but face shape is thrown completely. YOu could now go back to the first male to try type again - but makes resulting kittens F1 again.
Or you have a stud boy from the first litter with the first male used on a girl from the second litter with second female and second males and then you have F2s there. But now where? Where will more diverse genes comes from? Where is the next new set of F1 or F2 sandcat/hyrid genes coming from. YOu need another breeder with another unrelated set of cats to do a swap with. And there aren't any. YOu can't even get a second stud cat for you to have.

I just see it as far too complicated. Keeping the sandcat shape and look is just going to be incredibly difficult. Even finding a golden BSH that is the right basic colour under the golden (would need to be black golden) and not carry any other interfering genes, that is a bad example of the breed that a breeder is going to let you use for breeding, is blood group A, HCM clear lines etc. is going to be very hard. You want a cat that doesn't carry CP or silver or choc etc as you don't want any chance of third generation cats etc throwing you undesirable colours. 

And the resulting kittens in the early years may not be house-able to all but the most dedicated owners and I'm not sure that there are enough out there. SO you are going to be overrun.

With the existing stock you have (1 boy) I don't see how it's feasible! Sorry.

Now if you want to develop just one trait - (like the Selkirks with the curly gene) then you have much more chance of making it work - but then have to think about the ethics again.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> i'm wounded. :cryin: No-one appreciates the hard work i've done, poring over pages of Siamese pics, avoiding
> the ax-faced bats who impersonate Siamese in the fancy, passing by the lavender-eyed Flame-points
> & trying to ignore Seal-points with eyes as blue as October skies, all to find various compatible Lynx types
> with ticked coats...
> ...


Us Great Minds are often sadly under-appreciated . . .


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Just a comment: as far as I am aware (and I'm preparing to be shot down in flames here!) no-one has managed to domesticate British Wildcats, or their half-domesticated progeny (which I believe occasionally occur). Is there any reason to expect the sandcat to be different.

OP states that she doesn't think her 'entire' tom is suffering. because he would rarely meet a lady cat in his natural environment - but he isn't in his natural environment, and the delicious scent of unneutered lady cats (albeit domestic or feral) may actually be driving him bananas if he can't get to them.

It generally takes many thousands of years to breed the 'wild' out of an animal. Dunno if I would want to try it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It did occur to me that a Devon Rex was more like a Sand Cat than an abysinnian in many ways, and a varient (straight coat) even more so.

However I don't think a Golden of any breed would be the best coat pattern / colour to use by a long chalk. I suspect the Sand Cat is simply an unusual black ticked tabby. That would account for the pale chin & throat - tabby cats are commonly pale to white in those areas without any white spotting or gloving genes. The evidence for this in my view is the similarity of a barred (poor!) Abysinian to a Sand Cat.

However the Devon Rex gene is recessive, not dominant (unlike the Selkirk Rex gene) so you could easily end up with cats with the Devon Rex coat unless you gene test to get rid of it... Though small they are quite solid cats, usually with a very outgoing temprement and a streak of naughtyness. However I have a feeling that since colour is a non-issue with them that finding a suitable one for breeding (let along lots of suitable ones) would be hard. I don't think I've ever seen a ticked tabby DR, and you would want to be sure you weren't introducing dilution, chocolate, cinnamon, white spotting, Siamese colour restriction, Burmese colour restriction and anything I've forgotten. They also have blood type issues, so you can bet the single DR or DR Variant you can find who is the right colour (black ticked tabby) will be the wrong blood group.

Aside from any ethical issues about crossing a wild species with a domestic, I think the post from Spid outlines the numerical problems with attempting to develop a breed from your cat.

I feel the best thing is to get him neutered and enjoy him for what he is.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Here's a new idea. See if you can get permission to develop a normal-coated DR that looks as much like a Sand Cat as possible!


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

thatsafunnylookingcat said:


> I'm not sure that they would turn into a status cat.


Unfortunately anything that is considered exclusive, expensive, unusual, niche or hard to get hold of it becomes a status symbol. This is why I was surprised that a Sand cat hybrid hasn't been attempted before. Looking at the prices of the Serval and Savannah - someone somewhere must have done the maths and realised that a Sand Cat hybrid is going to command a pretty impressive price.


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Assuming the person on the other forum posting about mating is the same as this one (that posters other cats happen to have the same name and breeds as this poster and happens to live in the UK and purchased the SC from an exotic pet shop) there was a mating between the Sand Cat and a Chinchilla cross who became pregnant and was posted about July 6th as starting to fill out.
> 
> If not the same person, then there's another privately owned Sand Cat in the UK you may be able to contact by that forum with your breeding ideas...


Is that from the same search? - I must have missed that, I saw that a Bengal mating was vaguely attempted but not the chinchilla.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> It did occur to me that a Devon Rex was more like a Sand Cat than an abysinnian in many ways, and a varient (straight coat) even more so.
> 
> However I don't think a Golden of any breed would be the best coat pattern / colour to use by a long chalk. I suspect the Sand Cat is simply an unusual black ticked tabby. That would account for the pale chin & throat - tabby cats are commonly pale to white in those areas without any white spotting or gloving genes. The evidence for this in my view is the similarity of a barred (poor!) Abysinian to a Sand Cat.
> 
> ...


I concur.

I was walking on thin ice with the golden thing and did almost go down the ticked tabby Abby instead. The heavy barring does indeed look Abby like.

I did do a search on DR and found they were homozygous for curl - hadn't realised it was a recessive gene though. Should really research more thoroughly. If there are DR variants then that would be a good ish starting point - and if a ticky tabby could be found then that would also be a good start. However, if the curl is recessive then even a curly Devon would only produce straight haireds with a sand cat. Then only if mating back to a Devon would you end up with the possibility of curlies, unless to a variant Devon.

Any incongruities in my rather large previous post I blame on dreaming!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Aurelie said:


> Is that from the same search? - I must have missed that, I saw that a Bengal mating was vaguely attempted but not the chinchilla.


I think you may have only read page one of a three page thread


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

And hey neutering him will probably make him a happier, calmer pet to own ....

I have THE most laidback stud boys - all 3 live together - ask Spid about them. Even so, their hormones affect them and sometimes they react 'out of character' .....


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> I think you may have only read page one of a three page thread


Yes - going back to it I hadn't read it to the end. I wonder what the outcome was.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And the resulting kittens in the early years may not be house-able to all but the most dedicated owners and I'm not sure that there are enough out there. SO you are going to be overrun.


So true and what's more you may *never* produce a kitten which makes a good domestic pet.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Assuming the person on the other forum posting about mating is the same as this one (that posters other cats happen to have the same name and breeds as this poster and happens to live in the UK and purchased the SC from an exotic pet shop) there was a mating between the Sand Cat and a Chinchilla cross who became pregnant and was posted about July 6th as starting to fill out.
> 
> If not the same person, then there's another privately owned Sand Cat in the UK you may be able to contact by that forum with your breeding ideas...


I never read that bit either..interesting.

Iv been dreaming about it too lol,iv been dreaming about best not to put a normal tabby queen into the mix as it would dominate the ticked pattern,no idea if this is right but for some reason this is what I dreamt haha.

anyone know if its right though?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> I never read that bit either..interesting.
> 
> Iv been dreaming about it too lol,iv been dreaming about best not to a normal tabby queen into the mix as it would dominate the ticked pattern,no idea if this is right but for some reason this is what I dreamt haha.
> 
> anyone know if its right though?


Your dreams deceive you on this occasion  Ticked is dominant to all other forms of tabby pattern.

I did think, at first look, the the sand cat was a ticked tabby. Looking at more and more pictures on-line (what beautiful little cats they are) though the patterning (or lack) is highly variable. Some have tiger-like striping to the body, some have none, and the residual tabby (?) patterning elsewhere on the body is also extremely variable. I wonder if it's age related (sand cat kittens look *very* spotted which a ticked tabby would not) or perhaps sub-species related. Anyway, it just left me wondering if they really are genetically ticked tabby or possess some entirely different genotype in that respect.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spid said:


> I concur.
> 
> I was walking on thin ice with the golden thing and did almost go down the ticked tabby Abby instead. The heavy barring does indeed look Abby like.
> 
> ...


You know the old saying - 'recessives are forever'. Unless cats are gene tested to eliminate the DR gene eventually curly kittens will crop up as eventually DR carriers from the foundation cats will get mated to each other.

I also looked closely at some Sand Cat images and so far as I can see they have black pads and the typical reddish with a black outline of a tabby cat's nose. Kittens seem to have more barring as well.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Have just checked and neither UC Davies or Langford have tabby gene tests so there is no way of seeing if he is any of the known ones. Got sidetracked into an email to UC Davies about PRA in Orientals while I was about it...


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Your dreams deceive you on this occasion  Ticked is dominant to all other forms of tabby pattern.
> 
> I did think, at first look, the the sand cat was a ticked tabby. Looking at more and more pictures on-line (what beautiful little cats they are) though the patterning (or lack) is highly variable. Some have tiger-like striping to the body, some have none, and the residual tabby (?) patterning elsewhere on the body is also extremely variable. I wonder if it's age related (sand cat kittens look *very* spotted which a ticked tabby would not) or perhaps sub-species related. Anyway, it just left me wondering if they really are genetically ticked tabby or possess some entirely different genotype in that respect.


Thanx D that's really interesting.

Its brought another question to mind.As LFL mentioned ticked cps I was wondering if anyone had seen one in RL? Iv not and id not even thought of them till it was mentioned and im guessing you could get one from mating a cp to a ticked cat carrying cp for example.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> Thanx D that's really interesting.
> 
> Its brought another question to mind.As LFL mentioned ticked cps I was wondering if anyone had seen one in RL? Iv not and id not even thought of them till it was mentioned and im guessing you could get one from mating a cp to a ticked cat carrying cp for example.


I've seen some photos (continental breeders on Facebook) of what are said to be ticked based colourpointed. With self cp's (i.e. not tabby cp's) I think anyone would be hard pushed to know - if you were just going on guesswork - whether the cp was ticked based or not, given that you only have minimal colouring at the points.. though the tail might be a giveaway or perhaps if it was a dominant coloured cp when the body, as is often the case, shades up with age. Doubt anyone would bother with the ticked gene as far as tabby cp's go.. kind of defeats the object lol.

I know one or two cp breeders in the UK who *think* they may have ticked based cp's lurking but until relatively recent years in the UK ticked (whether being masked by a self or an actual ticked tabby) wasn't really seen until the introduction of imported British from the continent.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I've seen some photos (continental breeders on Facebook) of what are said to be ticked based colourpointed. With self cp's (i.e. not tabby cp's) I think anyone would be hard pushed to know - if you were just going on guesswork - whether the cp was ticked based or not, given that you only have minimal colouring at the points.. though the tail might be a giveaway or perhaps if it was a dominant coloured cp when the body, as is often the case, shades up with age. Doubt anyone would bother with the ticked gene as far as tabby cp's go.. kind of defeats the object lol.
> 
> I know one or two cp breeders in the UK who *think* they may have ticked based cp's lurking but until relatively recent years in the UK ticked (whether being masked by a self or an actual ticked tabby) wasn't really seen until the introduction of imported British from the continent.


Thanx for that very interesting.


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

If am reading right as have only just skimmed the last few posts there is a query over whether CP's with Ticked Tabby based pattern are commonly found.

In Siamese Tabby Points can be Spotted, Classic or Ticked Tabby based and this is allowed for in the GCCF SOP as will affect the patterning on the points particularly if Ticked based. 

This is my Seal Tabby Point Siamese boy, Ticked Tabby based...think pics are good enough to make out the Ticked features i.e skullcap markings, tail ring pattern etc. His body shading is also ticked with no other underlying tabby pattern showing as often happens with Spotty and Classic based. He is now slightly older than in pics and his body shading is even ticking all over. 

He has produced a Spotted Tabby with a self but spotty carrier and a Ticked Based CP in the same litter if that helps with the Ticked genetics.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lisajjl1 said:


> If am reading right as have only just skimmed the last few posts there is a query over whether CP's with Ticked Tabby based pattern are commonly found.
> 
> In Siamese Tabby Points can be Spotted, Classic or Ticked Tabby based and this is allowed for in the GCCF SOP as will affect the patterning on the points particularly if Ticked based.
> 
> ...


That's interesting,so I guess its possible for a ticked tabby to produce the other types of tabby?


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> That's interesting,so I guess its possible for a ticked tabby to produce the other types of tabby?


This is a what I believe as was told by those in the know quote but yes Ticked is able to carry the other patterns....proof in real life this is his son - defo a spotted!!!!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lisajjl1 said:


> This is a what I believe as was told by those in the know quote but yes Ticked is able to carry the other patterns....proof in real life this is his son - defo a spotted!!!!


aww very cute


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lostbear said:


> I appreciate you, LFL. You are truly an artist (of what type shall remain unsaid . . .)
> 
> Us Great Minds are often sadly under-appreciated . . .


thank U, L-B. :001_smile: 
i don't think i'm a Great Mind, but i did *hunt* to find those photos! 
cheers, hun.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lisajjl1 said:


> This is a what I believe as was told by those in the know quote but yes Ticked is able to carry the other patterns....proof in real life this is his son - defo a spotted!!!!


Those kittens are FABULOUS! Those ears!!!!!! Magic!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> <snip>
> In terms of color & pattern, an Abby or Siamese type comes close, particularly a Lynx-point apple-head Siamese with some fawn ticking. These are Lynx-points:


But the Sand Cat isn't a colourpoint cat, so no Siamese colour and pattern is anything like a Sand Cat.


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## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

I just knew there was something 'fishy' about this thread. In my opinion, you should leave Sand Cat breeding to the conservationists, where they work to ensure purebred Sand Cats remain in existence. I really feel hybrids are unnecessary...



lisajjl1 said:


> This is a what I believe as was told by those in the know quote but yes Ticked is able to carry the other patterns....proof in real life this is his son - defo a spotted!!!!


And can I just say- Eeek!! Spotted Ori :001_tt1: :001_tt1: :001_tt1:


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Found a fairly academic description of tabby pattern inheritance:
Tabby Pattern Genetic Breakthrough

However they have a summary:
If the cat has a copy of the Ta gene it will be a ticked tabby.

Otherwise, TM (mackerel) and tb (blotched - classic) come into play.

And if they have a copy of TS then the TM and tb patterns are broken up into spots.

BTW this side also has a great article about kittens with twisted legs.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Found a fairly academic description of tabby pattern inheritance:
Tabby Pattern Genetic Breakthrough

However they have a summary:
If the cat has a copy of the Ta gene it will be a ticked tabby.

Otherwise, TM (mackerel) and tb (blotched - classic) come into play.

And if they have a copy of TS then the TM and tb patterns are broken up into spots.

BTW this side also has a great article about kittens with twisted legs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> But the Sand Cat isn't a colourpoint cat, so no Siamese colour and pattern is *anything like* a Sand Cat.


a ticked Lynx-point has a ticked body, with markedly-less density toward the core, & markings that are more 
definite & deeply-pigmented on the head & tail, as ticking is densely distributed on those extremities... similar to, 
tho not identical to, the Sand Cat. Faint stripes also can be seen on shoulders & rumps of Lynx-point Siamese - 
again, resembling Sand Cats.

i didn't say they were "the same" - only that they resembled one another, & that a Lynx-point applehead 
might be a possible mate for color & pattern, with a somewhat-similar body type. Obviously, a sleek head, 
upright ears, no muttonchops, no long hairs line the upper cone of the pinnae, etc.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

A good Siamese has a pale body so the pattern isn't obvious there. Then there is the matter of the blue eyes... And I bet Sand Cat kits are not white when they are born.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> a ticked Lynx-point has a ticked body, with markedly-less density toward the core, & markings that are more
> definite & deeply-pigmented on the head & tail, as ticking is densely distributed on those extremities... similar to,
> tho not identical to, the Sand Cat. Faint stripes also can be seen on shoulders & rumps of Lynx-point Siamese -
> again, resembling Sand Cats.
> ...


But you wouldn't want to introduce the colour pointed gene into sand cat genes - not all lynx (tabby) point have a shaded body and are often a pale white-ish colour over their body, not a uniform cream. My blue tabby colour-point has NO tabby markings on her body or her flanks or her shoulders. Not all tabbies (even seal) will exhibit these markings. You are jut changing the coat pattern with that gene. Not needed if this mating did ever go ahead.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> A good Siamese has a pale body so the pattern isn't obvious there. Then there [are] the blue eyes...
> And I bet Sand Cat kits aren't white, when they are born.


I wasn't even suggesting show-quality Siamese - particularly as the extreme-wedge heads of the current 
popular show-type are even more-radically different than Sand Cats' skulls, compared to appleheads.

blue eyes, like all the Siamese-typical traits *including* the pale body / pigmented points, 
are *recessive.* To show phenotypically, they must be inherited as more than 75% of the total - otherwise, 
they are invisible, carried genotypically.

Only the skull, large ears, Oriental body type, & slight slant of the eyes are apparent in F1 progeny 
of a Siamese x anything; one of our queens had 4 litters of 6 kittens each, by the same brown-tabby tom, 
over a 4-year period; the only way to distinguish the kittens was by the # of socks they had [if any], 
& how tall a sock on each foot - some had no white, some had white toes, others wore anklets.

IOW, cross ANYthing with a Siamese, & aside from a moderated body-type, U get the "other parent".

re kittens - 
Yes, we bred Siamese; just like Dals, coat pigment comes in later -
& no, Sand Cat kittens are spotted as neonates, & change pattern as they age.

Why do i feel as if i'm sitting a multiple-choice exam?...  Did i pass?
Is there an essay Q for bonus points?


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

lisajjl1 said:


> If am reading right as have only just skimmed the last few posts there is a query over whether CP's with Ticked Tabby based pattern are commonly found.
> 
> In Siamese Tabby Points can be Spotted, Classic or Ticked Tabby based and this is allowed for in the GCCF SOP as will affect the patterning on the points particularly if Ticked based.
> 
> ...


My, my, he is just gorgeous. I already have a favourite pf cat but maybe I need too have best boy and best girl. It's his stripy stockings that get me.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

It seems that plenty of people find it totally ethical once the breed has become established and recognized officially, but what about in the beginning?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

dagny0823 said:


> but what about in the beginning?[/QUOTE
> 
> Sorry.. what *about* the beginning?


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> dagny0823 said:
> 
> 
> > but what about in the beginning?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree it is there to be drawn. No difference in ethics between creating the Bengal and creating a new hybrid.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> dagny0823 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the explanation. I don't know what "corollary" means so I guess I'll look that one up for myself
> ...


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

dagny0823 said:


> I'm still working through this thread, but this, and all the likes jumped out at me. I apologize if this is brought up later. I'm not picking on you, TT, at all, but this is a nice succinct expression of what a lot of people have been saying so far, so it makes for a good quotation to pull.
> 
> How many of you who liked this, and thus agree with the statement, also are fans of/slaves of/breeders of Savannah cats and Bengals? Both are the result of breeding a domestic cat to a wild cat, two different species. They are certainly now considered ethical breeds by all sorts of people, but by the very definitions given in this thread, they are entirely unethical and the first breeders of them should never have bothered?


No, I don't think the first people should have bothered - there are many instances especially of F1 and F2s where the cats are basically still wild and vicious - reading some of the US rescue site is quite sobering. I know they are now so far down the line that we do have nice natured cats, but was it worth it. Just for some glitter in the coat and rosetting?

How many times do you hear the anecdotal - 'oh, my friend has one of those - it's vicious!'. My hubby's work mate had one. It WAS vicious and ended up living in a pen outside as is was so wild. They couldn't let it wander (which was what it really wanted to do) as it attacked anyone and thing it saw. It was an F3 I believe. SO no, I don't think they should have done it really.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> but it has seemed to me that most folks on here are pretty positive about these hybrid breeds


Ah. Think there may be confusion over terms. Many of us breed 'hybrid' breeds in that they were derived from crosses between established domestic breeds. I suspect you may have seen enthusiasm for these.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

I agree (ref to post 221) and I think Dagny had raised the pivotal question.

For me, this has been the most educational post I have ever seen on the forum. Through the course of the post I have gone from: OMG, I want one; please put me on the waiting list - to, what a stupid (albeit well-intentioned idea) - to, what a t*sser this is clearly mal-intentioned.

Honestly, we didn't get Bengals because the current house is a wee bit too small. I am now thankful for that decision. An F1 Savanah has been seriously planned for when we move to a bigger place with enough safe land. It is now completely off the cards. As much as the idea still tugs at my heart strings, I just would not have one. Wouldn't have a Bengal either. Just because something is beautiful that does not give one the right to posses it; perhaps quite the reverse.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I also think that just because people were discussing genes etc doesn't mean that they condoned the action - more were intellectually theorising at the possibility.

I would really like to hear back from the OP as she approached me via PM to go and see her sand cat. Now, I can't and neither am I interested in helping her 'project' work, so would love to hear a response.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

havoc said:


> Ah. Think there may be confusion over terms. Many of us breed 'hybrid' breeds in that they were derived from crosses between established domestic breeds. I suspect you may have seen enthusiasm for these.


Both Savannahs and Bengals came from a cross between a wild cat and a domestic cat. I've seen a lot of enthusiasm for both.

I do wish Telling Tails still posted here--isn't she/he a breeder of Bengals? All those cats are adorable and and I'm sure have great temperaments, but I would assume that's the result of careful breeding and it would be useful to hear from someone who actually breeds this sort of cat themselves.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I've never seen a Savannah and I'm not a fan of Bengals. As Spid suggested, I was discussing possible mates from a theoretical point of view. The best thing for Trevor (think that's the Sand Cat's name) would be to neuter him.

He has come up before, I think both here and on another forum, and if i remember correctly he doesn't have the documentation of genetic origin he would need to become part of an existing captive breeding program. Without that even if the owners could get a female their kittens would still not be acceptable for captive breeding.

People mentioned licences. There would be one to import him, and I believe one to keep him.

Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976



> Felidae, except the species Felis catus - The bobcat, caracal, cheetah, jaguar, lion, lynx, ocelot, puma, serval, tiger and all other cats (the domestic cat is excepted)


However he is smaller than a lot of domestic cats and I imagine it's fairly easy to convince one's local authority that he is being keep securely.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dagny0823 said:


> I don't talk to many people about cats & cat breeds, outside of this forum, but it's seemed to me that most folks
> on here are pretty positive about these hybrid breeds. They are beautiful and have their own unique appeal.
> And there has never been a peep about the ethics of their origins.
> 
> ...





havoc said:


> Ah. Think there may be confusion over terms. Many of us breed 'hybrid' breeds... derived from crosses
> between established domestic breeds. I suspect you may have seen enthusiasm for these.


i don't think that's the bullseye, Havoc - i think that Dagny is questioning the ethics of the several breeds, 
*now established & mostly accepted*, which began with F1 progeny of domestic x wild-species.

The *Serval* was bred to domestic cats, creating the Savannah. 
The *Asian Leopard Cat* was bred to domestic cats, creating the Bengal.

The *Bengal* was further used as 1 of 7 breeds blended & winnowed for the California Spangled.
The History of the California Spangled Cat | Pictures of Cats



> ...in 1971 on a wildlife safari in East Africa with a companion, [Paul Casey] heard about the killing & skinning
> of a leopard (the common leopard), the best known of all spotted cats. Paul Casey had a world vision.
> His thoughts and concerns were on a world-wide level. I feel that I must quote his words from the 1989
> "California Spangled Cat Calendar" :
> ...


i think Paul Casey was delusional; i think he developed his spotted breed as a lucrative sideline. :skep:
Keeping a spotted cat from a wild X domestic hybrid lineage isn't going to make the owner "environmentally 
conscious" - & selling the kittens via the *1986 Neiman-Marcus Xmas catalog as "the ultimate Hers 'n His gifts"
was grotesque, but garnished plenty of headlines & stoked demand.*

He was a bad liar, but a terrific salesman. :glare:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> i think that Dagny is questioning the ethics of the several breeds,
> now established & mostly accepted,


Fair enough. I just know it's a term I use quite a bit and probably with some enthusiasm. Never do I intend it to imply enthusiasm for crossing domestic cats with wild species.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

True, but regardless of if they are aware or not he was never going to help the species in the wild from the moment he left wherever he was exported from. And given his size I suspect it is relatively easy to keep him without people knowing, apart from the vet(s).


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i don't think that's the bullseye, Havoc - i think that Dagny is questioning the ethics of the several breeds,
> *now established & mostly accepted*, which began with F1 progeny of domestic x wild-species.
> 
> The *Serval* was bred to domestic cats, creating the Savannah.
> ...


Yes, you've got it exactly. 
If it's unethical to create a new breed from a sand cat x ???????, then it must be equally unethical to create a Serval x ????? or an Asian Leopard Cat x ?????????. Yet, many people on here don't seem to think about origins when they see pictures of the latter two (and some others I can't think of right now) and express a desire to one day have one.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If it's unethical to create a new breed from a sand cat x ???????, *then it must be equally unethical to create a Serval x ????? or an Asian Leopard Cat x ?????????. *Yet, many people on here don't seem to think about origins when they see pictures of the latter two (and some others I can't think of right now) and express a desire to one day have one.


It is in my mind and however beautiful they may be to look at I couldn't own one.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> ...if i remember correctly, he [lacks] documentation of genetic origin he'd need to [sire kits in] an existing
> captive breeding program. Without that, even if the owners could get a female, their kittens would still
> not be acceptable for captive breeding.


most wild-cat species can now be DNA-tested to determine origin, which is why so many ppl, myself included, 
are doggone angry with the *Virginia Zoo*, which confiscated 2 female tigers when they were just 3-MO.

Not only did they fail utterly to keep up their human-tolerance & train them for husbandry behaviors [they were 
the pets of a drug-dealer, & lived on a houseboat - they were very human-affiliative & bottle-reared], BUT they 
absolutely & resolutely refused to even test these cats for origin, so they can be included in the SSI plans.
:nono: Now, they must sedate the cats for the simplest of gross exams, or any intervention whatever.

AND - they are genetic dead-ends. They're among the few zoo-captive tigers that AREN't 'white'.
White tigers are a ticket-sales ploy, they have crap genetics, they're line-bred from ONE tom... 
*Aaarrrgggh... * :cursing:


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

dagny0823 said:


> If it's unethical to create a new breed from a sand cat x ???????,


I believe it's unethical for a private citizen to be keeping a threatened species in captivity.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Okay--in the interest of a debate, rather than statements of opinion, why is it unethical for private citizens to breed wild animals? Why is it more ethical for zoos (if it is--I think LFL has raised an interesting point here)? Why might it be ethical for private citizens to breed (for anyone who is on the other side of the issue), or why is it ethical to breed Bengals or Savannahs? I think there's a really interesting discussion to be had here, and since it doesn't look like OP will be back any time soon, we might as well discuss amongst ourselves


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Just to clear up that it isn't illegal in the UK to keep a sandcat - they don't need a licence as they are listed as a specific exception in the schedule to the dangerous animals act. 

Most of the small cats are  So the OP doesn't need to hide the cat, and the exotic vet is probably fair enough given the specialist needs to the cat. 

This thread has been very educational - I looked up skunks after they were mentioned above - there's a dodgy trade if ever there was one. Easy to buy, dodgy practices in "descenting" - medically removing the relevant glands (illegal here) and enough of them here to have specialist rescues and occasional skunks found out and about.

I am guessing there are probably raccoons out there too?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

A starter for ten, unless anyone types faster than me


dagny0823 said:


> Okay--in the interest of a debate, rather than statements of opinion, why is it unethical for private citizens to breed wild animals?


 Nothing inherently unethical about it if done well, everything if not



dagny0823 said:


> Why is it more ethical for zoos (if it is--I think LFL has raised an interesting point here)?


 I think this is about good zoos and bad zoos - with bad zoos breeding white tigers and good zoos breeding exotic slugs, and zoos are mostly owned by private citizens when they start, although they may turn into trusts later on


dagny0823 said:


> Why might it be ethical for private citizens to breed (for anyone who is on the other side of the issue)


 Because exotic snails need friends and some of the animal husbandry knowledge we have comes from private citizens


dagny0823 said:


> why is it ethical to breed Bengals or Savannahs?


 Not sure but I *think* I don't agree with deliberate inter-species breeding


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

dagny0823 said:


> How many of you who liked this, and thus agree with the statement, also are fans of/slaves of/breeders of Savannah cats and Bengals? Both are the result of breeding a domestic cat to a wild cat, two different species. They are certainly now considered ethical breeds by all sorts of people, but by the very definitions given in this thread, they are entirely unethical and the first breeders of them should never have bothered?


As I posted earlier in the thread, I don't agree with those wild hybrid breeds.

The Aus government doesn't either, Bengals must be F5 before they're allowed in the country, we don't have any early gen or Asian Leopard Cats.
Savannah's were banned before the first breeding cats landed in the country, no other wild crosses have been proposed but I'd assume the government would have the same bans or regulations on them as well.



havoc said:


> Ah. Think there may be confusion over terms. Many of us breed 'hybrid' breeds in that they were derived from crosses between established domestic breeds. I suspect you may have seen enthusiasm for these.


Agree there is confusion. Difference between hybrid and wild hybrid.

Mine are a hybrid breed, Abysinian, Siamese and American Shorthair.


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## Busy bee (May 24, 2013)

• View topic - Sand Cat

Don't know if this is the thread you have already seen but thought I would put it on anyway


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I have been following this thread and do think it is time to draw it to a close.
Threads like this just become gossip in the end and whether or not the OP is as black as she has been painted I do not think it is fair to continue to debate her motives without her input - and I doubt very much that she will feel able to post anything without feeling rather hounded at the moment.


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