# Is this Racist?



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

While camping last weekend, I left OH with dogs and went for a walk on my own.
Walking up the side of heathland with a hedge between me and the road, I could hear young voices, they were speaking in a foriegn language that I couldn't understand.
I knew that on the other side of the road there was a secluded car park and just up ahead I would come into full view. I stopped to listen, as I would if the had been speaking English, however I couldn't tell from their tone and voices, if they were larking around or doing something like torturing a kitten (example only).
If they had been speaking English I could have had more of a clue because I would have understood what they were saying. As it was I felt quite uncomfortable about showing myself and crept as quickly as possible to a place out of view.

I think it's possibly fear of the unknown, though I'm not one to dwell on these things normally and had I seen them first rather than heard them, I probably would have been much more comfortable


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

No 

If they had been speaking English, but quiet enough that you couldn't hear what they were saying, you would surely have felt the same?

It had nothing to do with their ethnicity IMO, but more to do with the circumstances.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

I don't think it was racist, I think it was common sense. I would have reacted the same way I'm sure.

It is better to be safe than sorry these days


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rona said:


> While camping last weekend, I left OH with dogs and went for a walk on my own.
> Walking up the side of heathland with a hedge between me and the road, I could hear young voices, they were speaking in a foriegn language that I couldn't understand.
> I knew that on the other side of the road there was a secluded car park and just up ahead I would come into full view.* I stopped to listen, as I would if the had been speaking English, however I couldn't tell from their tone and voices, if they were larking around or doing something like torturing a kitten (example only).*If they had been speaking English I could have had more of a clue because I would have understood what they were saying. As it was I felt quite uncomfortable about showing myself and crept as quickly as possible to a place out of view.
> 
> I think it's possibly fear of the unknown, though I'm not one to dwell on these things normally and had I seen them first rather than heard them, I probably would have been much more comfortable


Not racist, but I am wondering why you'd stop to listen to a conversation that didn't include or involve you in any way - regardless of language?  Isn't that eavesdropping?


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## stargren (Jul 24, 2014)

if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language


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## IrishEyes (Jun 26, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> No
> 
> If they had been speaking English, but quiet enough that you couldn't hear what they were saying, you would surely have felt the same?
> 
> It had nothing to do with their ethnicity IMO, but more to do with the circumstances.


^^^^ What she says...


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## IrishEyes (Jun 26, 2012)

stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language


So, one shouldn't be free to speak their own language?


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

In no way racist. You were just acting instinctively to keep yourself safe, because you couldn't tell from where you were what was happening.

Maybe you subconsciously picked up more from the tones/volume of voice than you consciously realised.

Had they been English spoken, you would have been able to build up a better picture. You acted on what you had. 

I think you were being sensible.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

No Rona that is not racist, especially as you say you would have done the same regardless of the language 
I'd class it more self preservation myself 



stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language


However, that is racist :frown2:
You do know it is perfectly possible to speak more than one language right? You do know it is perfectly possible that the people you refer to were learning English whilst here right?

Do you learn the language of everywhere you visit?


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## stargren (Jul 24, 2014)

IrishEyes said:


> So, one shouldn't be free to speak their own language?


yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!

seems as in our nursery has both kids and parents who can not speak english but yet they expect to mix with english kids and adults not knowing what they are going on about .


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## stargren (Jul 24, 2014)

However, that is racist :frown2:
You do know it is perfectly possible to speak more than one language right? You do know it is perfectly possible that the people you refer to were learning English whilst here right?

Do you learn the language of everywhere you visit?[/QUOTE]and

i learnt french on and german at school but i don't go abroad i got to center parks for my holidays if you must know .

and no i am not racist !


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language


Might they be visitors for instance? As a nation we don't have a very good reputation abroad for bothering to learn other languages so I don't think we can expect everyone visiting our country to speak ours necessarily.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

It often bugs me that my neighbours dont speak english. mainly when they are standing outside the front of our houses talking/shouting at each other. I can never work out if I step outside Im going to be walking into the middle of someones arguement and I cant tell if they are drunk so usually I hide indoors until they go!
Also one of the guys shouts and trashes the house quite often...the lady/ies dont sound scared so I keep out of it but I would be much happier if I knew I wasnt living next door to a domestic abuse case!

Sometimes there are reasons why you want someone to be speaking english!


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## stargren (Jul 24, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Might they be visitors for instance? As a nation we don't have a very good reputation abroad for bothering to learn other languages so I don't think we can expect everyone visiting our country to speak ours necessarily.


no as i see them most weeks in the supermarket .on the other hand i do know there is people who do make the effort to speak english .


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

stargren said:


> yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!
> 
> seems as in our nursery has both kids and parents who can not speak english but yet they expect to mix with english kids and adults not knowing what they are going on about .


Oh, I wouldn't get too upset about it... It seems even those who grew up speaking English can't speak it, or write it.... 

FWIW, I speak 3 languages fluently, and am proficient in two more. I often break in to another language if the situation calls for it, maybe I don't want to be understood, maybe I see someone struggling in a language foreign to them and can be of help, maybe I just feel like talking in that other language. Has nothing to do with what's right or wrong, just my own personal preference at that moment.


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## Pixel (May 13, 2011)

It sounds to me like your natural defence mechanism kicked in, just as it would to any unexpected ocurrence, so nothing to do with race. If we are unable to get more clues from our senses then our instinct is to err on the side of caution.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

stargren said:


> yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!
> 
> seems as in our nursery has both kids and parents who can not speak english but yet they expect to mix with english kids and adults not knowing what they are going on about .


My God!! You really are serious.

When I worked at a Pre-School, we had children who joined us who couldn't speak English. But not for long.

Of course they were entitled to be there. They picked up the language quickly - everything is very visual in Early Years.

Granted, their parents were at a disadvantage, but we had parents who always made them very welcome.

Sometimes they came in to read familiar stories in different languages, which the children loved. (You can buy dual language books you know)

And it was fantastic when our theme was "around the World" or similar. We would include the countries they came from, and those parents could help s with things like counting, Hello and Goodbye, cooking, clothes, etc.

Enriching for all the children.

The only thing I consider rude, is when I am in a shop, say, where I know they speak English, yet they chatter in front of me in their first language. That seems unnecessary, and it makes you feel they are talking about you.

Yes, when I shop at Tescos nowadays, I often feel I am in another country when I hear people chattering around me , but I'm sure I would do the same if I were abroad, because my schoolgirl french and English would get me nowhere.

Out of interest, what is your opinion of BSL? (British Sign language?) Is that rude? it's quite excluding.

It is a rich and exciting world out there, with wonderful people who live varied lives. I think we should seize any opportunity to learn all we can.

Totally off topic, Rona. Sorry.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> It often bugs me that my neighbours dont speak english. mainly when they are standing outside the front of our houses talking/shouting at each other. I can never work out if I step outside Im going to be walking into the middle of someones arguement and I cant tell if they are drunk so usually I hide indoors until they go!
> Also one of the guys shouts and trashes the house quite often...the lady/ies dont sound scared so I keep out of it but I would be much happier if I knew I wasnt living next door to a domestic abuse case!
> 
> Sometimes there are reasons why you want someone to be speaking english!


Yes, that is different. Your gut is telling you, even without understanding what is being said, that things are not good.

Spoken language s only a very small part of communication anyway.



ouesi said:


> Oh, I wouldn't get too upset about it... It seems even those who grew up speaking English can't speak it, or write it....
> 
> FWIW, I speak 3 languages fluently, and am proficient in two more. I often break in to another language if the situation calls for it, maybe I don't want to be understood, maybe I see someone struggling in a language foreign to them and can be of help, maybe I just feel like talking in that other language. Has nothing to do with what's right or wrong, just my own personal preference at that moment.


Oh, I do like your posts.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Just because you pass people speaking in a foreign language then does not mean they cannot speak English.

It is only natural to speak in your native tongue.

For example. If you lived in, say, France you would speak to other English people in English. And then perhaps speak French when you are around those who speak it as a first language.

Nothing wrong with that.

And, Rona, not racist. Nosy maybe a little but not racist.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

Summersky said:


> My God!! You really are serious.
> 
> When I worked at a Pre-School, we had children who joined us who couldn't speak English. But not for long.
> 
> ...


To the bolded, so true!!
I feel so lucky to have had the opportunity to experience other languages and other cultures.

Makes me laugh really when people complain about 'foreigners'. English is not my first language, yet no one would ever know it hearing me speak or even online seeing me write. And honestly, it's kind of shameful that those who tend to complain the loudest about people not speaking English, don't even speak it or write it properly themselves. If you're going to get uppity about your language, at least respect your own language enough to learn it properly :lol:


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language


Do you visit Wales at all? and if so do you make an effort to speak Welsh while you are there?

And if you hear a foreign language do you automatically assume that they are citizens of the Uk? if you don't know that person how do you know they aren't tourists?

Not trying to be awkward I just think we are too quick to judge and make assumptions based around how we perceive a situation. Why can we not just take a step back and look at the bigger picture.


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## stargren (Jul 24, 2014)

nope don't go to wales and i am aware there are people who are here on there hols as well .
i was on about people who live here not visit .


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language


a) i wouldnt assume they hadnt learnt, or more pertinently, arent in the process of _learning_ our language, so b) i wouldnt give a **** if i heard people speaking a different language in a supermarket, i have better things to worry about 


stargren said:


> yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!
> .


quite so, just as much as its only 'rite' that people born in _our country_ know how to spell_our language_


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

RONA: I take it the voices were male to make you feel a bit vulnerable? Presumably if it had been a couple of female tourists chatting to each other it would not have worried you?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

stargren said:


> yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!
> 
> seems as in our nursery has both kids and parents who can not speak english but yet they expect to mix with english kids and adults not knowing what they are going on about .


think you hit the nail on the head.

i cant really imagine the situation from the way rona described it, other than just thinking i would just think there are some blokes having a chat


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## stargren (Jul 24, 2014)

yes i am aware my reading and writing is not up most peoples standards on here!


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

stargren said:


> nope don't go to wales and i am aware there are people who are here on there hols as well .
> i was on about people who live here not visit .


Forgive me, but how would you know the difference between someone here as a tourist or someone living over here? unless you know every single person speaking in a foreign language that you hear. Do you hear all foreign accents and assume? or just the ones who you know to be citizens. Can't see how it matters to be honest.

And even if you do know them to be living here how do you know they are not learning the language? What if they were conversing with family who are visiting them from abroad who do not sepak English.

I speak Welsh, I speak Welsh when I can when I'm working (Work in a Welsh speaking environment) and shopping in Wales, however my family do not. So for ease of understanding if we are together and time I use English.

Like I say, not trying to be awkward, just interested in as to why we canot look at the bigger picture.


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## stargren (Jul 24, 2014)

MissShelley said:


> Forgive me, but how would you know the difference between someone here as a tourist or someone living over here? unless you know every single person speaking in a foreign language that you hear. Do you hear all foreign accents and assume? or just the ones who you know to be citizens. Can't see how it matters to be honest.
> 
> no i do not hear all foreign accents and assume .i was going on about the people who live in the ares by me as there is a lot of them in the council estate who do not work and not not speak English !


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## CheekyRio (Apr 26, 2014)

A couple of months back I had a large group of teens walking towards us so I walked over to the other side of the path as I felt a little uncomfortable. I felt mortified when one of them said to the others 'see I told you people are scared of blacks'. I hadn't even noticed their skin colour just that it was a group of boys. He sounded really upset about it. Wish I'd had the guts to go back and explain myself but I didn't. Poor kid


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

stargren said:


> i learnt french on and german at school but i don't go abroad i got to center parks for my holidays if you must know .
> *
> and no i am not racist* !


What would you call the following, then?



stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language





stargren said:


> yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!
> 
> seems as in our nursery has both kids and parents who can not speak english but yet they expect to mix with english kids and adults not knowing what they are going on about .


Both of those posts, to me, scream intolerance of ethnic minorities, i.e. racism. I do find it rude when the local shop keeper and his family are _serving me_ and talking in their own language, because I'm well aware that they can all speak passable English, but talking in their own language while I'm just browsing, makes no difference to me. I'm not interacting with them in any way, so I don't presume that they have any reason to include me in their conversations or to speak to each other in my native language, just so I know what they're saying.



stargren said:


> no as i see them most weeks in the supermarket .on the other hand i do know there is people who do make the effort to speak english .


You see the same people in the same supermarket most weeks? To the point where you recognise them? :huh: I mustn't take any notice of my surroundings then, because I can honestly say, unless it's a relative, friend or acquaintance (and even then, most of the time they have to call my name because I'm too busy looking through the products on offer), I'd never recognise the people around me to the point where I know they were at that supermarket last week and the week before.

As an aside, I don't go abroad much, but when I do, I do at least try to learn some of the local language so that, even though I might not be able to have a full-blown conversation in their language, I can learn the basics and ask questions, say hi, bye, thanks, etc.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

stargren said:


> yes i am aware my reading and writing is not up most peoples standards on here!


So.... even though you can't be bothered to speak and write your own language properly, you would be okay with judging someone like me? I speak, read, and write English fluently and correctly. Yet you might run in to me at the grocery store with my family and hear me speaking a language other than English. And you're just going to assume I can't be bothered to learn English? Oh, and let's add to the fun - my mediterranean heritage makes me look 'ethnic' 

Pretty amusing stuff....


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

stargren said:


> yes i am aware my reading and writing is not up most peoples standards on here!


irony alert


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

stargren said:


> no i do not hear all foreign accents and assume .i was going on about the people who live in the ares by me as there is a lot of them in the council estate who do not work and not not speak English !


This is good that you such an interest into the lives of others. Personally I do not know if the people around me work or not because I am too busy minding my own business.

On the other side, there are lots of people who have come to Britain to find a better life, yet are stuck here through no fault of their own.

I know one lady, she is Polish, a Solicitor in her own country, moved over with her husband. Not long after her Husband left her for another Woman, she was stuck here, no family no money, just her girls. Her qualifications counted for nothing here. She is now a care assistant working for minimum wage.

She didn't want to claim benefits, because she knew she would be judged by people thinking she is scrounger. How sad that in our society we can't support the vulnerable and those in need. I am not disputing that there are not some raping the system, and if you know this to be so then do something about it. Just saying that in life, nothing is rarely as it seems

What is that saying "walk a mile in their shoes"


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

CheekyRio said:


> A couple of months back I had a large group of teens walking towards us so I walked over to the other side of the path as I felt a little uncomfortable. I felt mortified when one of them said to the others 'see I told you people are scared of blacks'. I hadn't even noticed their skin colour just that it was a group of boys. He sounded really upset about it. Wish I'd had the guts to go back and explain myself but I didn't. Poor kid


oh, that is abit embaressing! Id be the same though, groups of lads always make me abit nervous so I tend to avoid them.

I can pass several groups of people here on my way to the shops and sometimes dont hear a word of english being spoken! In this country though you can get away with not knowing much as long as you know hello, goodbye and basic manners (please and excuse me go a long way!).


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> No Rona that is not racist, especially as you say you would have done the same regardless of the language
> I'd class it more self preservation myself
> 
> However, that is racist :frown2:
> ...


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I, too, would have gone a bit out of my way to avoid confrontation. Not because of ethnicity or anything other than my own sense of paranoia about meeting strangers alone in a secluded place.

As for the crossing the street from the teens I sympathize with that too, and would also have felt bad hearing such a comment.

I live and work in a college town. One time going for a walk, these two boys came up behind me. They walked behind me for a while, not passing, and their conversation stopped. It was nerve wracking so I stopped and turned to them and asked them to walk past me because it made me nervous to have them back there. They were nice about it and kind of jokey because after they passed and we all started walking again one of the boys called "now you're making US nervous" LOL!

As for stargen...wow. Please take a close look at your posts here and pay attention to what you are saying. You are judging others for "not learning the language" but you can't be bothered to learn it yourself? Don't you see the contradiction there?

Why not learn to live and let live? Why does it matter to you so much what language people speak? It's not anything to do with _you_ or your family.


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

no not racist, people are too worried these days about coming across as racist imo, if ever something makes you feel uneasy then just walk away, it's called instinct, and even if it's wrong, better safe than sorry, nobody will of known you avoided them so no upset caused really. 


I do agree that if someone chooses to live in another country they should learn the language, but I also don't see why people shouldn't talk to each other in their first language when together, in the supermarket or anywhere else, I imagine it is easier for them to do, what is annoying is when foreign people who can speak perfectly good English start talking their first language around you when they know you can't understand it, used to have a friend that done this all the time, we would be talking then one of her relatives would come over and they would both start talking Chinese, would just be left standing there like :001_huh: when some of us asked her about it and told her it was a bit rude she said she had never thought about it and it was just habit because their family never spoke to each other in English


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Not racist, but I am wondering why you'd stop to listen to a conversation that didn't include or involve you in any way - regardless of language?  Isn't that eavesdropping?





Blackcats said:


> And, Rona, not racist. Nosy maybe a little but not racist.


I don't want to listen to others conversations, they don't interest me at all, but if I'm in a vulnerable position I'd rather check that I'm not actually putting myself in an even more vulnerable position, and if that means I listen in surreptitiously, then so be it!



Calvine said:


> RONA: I take it the voices were male to make you feel a bit vulnerable? Presumably if it had been a couple of female tourists chatting to each other it would not have worried you?


It was a mixed group



Summersky said:


> Totally off topic, Rona. Sorry.


No problem, I like my threads to meander


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

rona said:


> I don't want to listen to others conversations, they don't interest me at all, but if I'm in a vulnerable position I'd rather check that I'm not actually putting myself in an even more vulnerable position, and if that means I listen in surreptitiously, then so be it!
> 
> I just don't know how you make out a group of people chattering makes you fear and become vunerable???


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Blackcats said:


> I just don't know how you make out a group of people chattering makes you fear and become vunerable???


I do. Not sure of Rona's age, but the older I get the more cautious I am about exposing myself, alone in an isolated place, to a group of strangers.

I hike alone, a lot. I notice over the past few years, depending on where I am hiking, if I can hear people coming up a trail, but not see them yet, I am just as likely to step off the trail a bit and let them pass, as I am to continue forward.

My cats have only me. That is ever in my mind. Everything I do, their need of me is behind my actions.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Coming across people out in the middle of nowhere and you don't know what they're saying, yes I'd be nervous too. Nothing to do with race or what language they were speaking.

I do find it hilarious when native speakers with seemingly a very tenuous grasp of English run around screeching that everyone should learn their language within days of being here and speak it all the time. So what if they speak their own language among themselves, how do you know they don't speak english as well? There was a Italian kid came into my school just before our gcses, barely spoke any English he was fluent by the end of the year. Surely school or nursery is the best place to learn it


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language


Why?
When we are on holiday in France we always speak english to each other wherever we are, only french when needed, is that wrong as well???????


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## Chillicat (Jan 14, 2012)

redroses2106 said:


> no not racist, people are too worried these days about coming across as racist imo, if ever something makes you feel uneasy then just walk away, it's called instinct, and even if it's wrong, better safe than sorry, nobody will of known you avoided them so no upset caused really.
> 
> I do agree that if someone chooses to live in another country they should learn the language, but I also don't see why people shouldn't talk to each other in their first language when together, in the supermarket or anywhere else, I imagine it is easier for them to do, what is annoying is when foreign people who can speak perfectly good English start talking their first language around you when they know you can't understand it, used to have a friend that done this all the time, we would be talking then one of her relatives would come over and they would both start talking Chinese, would just be left standing there like :001_huh: when some of us asked her about it and told her it was a bit rude she said she had never thought about it and it was just habit because their family never spoke to each other in English


We live in a multi-cultural society and hearing different languages is just as common as hearing different accents, I so got the mickey taken out of me when I first moved (I only moved one county up ). 
My ex-SIL is German and when she married my brother she already had an 8 yr old son and they used to often sit in the same room as all of us when my brother wasn't around laughing and giggling in their own language (they could speak perfect English) it used to make us very paranoid because we had no clue what they were saying and my brother always told her to speak English as they were staying in his Mum's house, this always seemed to happen even more whenever my Mum asked questions or made comments and I always thought it was quite rude, but on the flip side I used to love hearing my young nieces getting to grips with duel languages and the results when my niece was trying to teach us German. 
As for Rona as most have said it wasn't being racist you were aware of your own vulnerability and self preservation kicked in.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Chillicat said:


> We live in a multi-cultural society and hearing different languages is just as common as hearing different accents, I so got the mickey taken out of me when I first moved (I only moved one county up ).
> My ex-SIL is German and when she married my brother she already had an 8 yr old son *and they used to often sit in the same room as all of us when my brother wasn't around laughing and giggling in their own language* (they could speak perfect English) it used to make us very paranoid because we had no clue what they were saying and my brother always told her to speak English as they were staying in his Mum's house, this always seemed to happen even more whenever my Mum asked questions or made comments and I always thought it was quite rude, but on the flip side I used to love hearing my young nieces getting to grips with duel languages and the results when my niece was trying to teach us German.
> As for Rona as most have said it wasn't being racist you were aware of your own vulnerability and self preservation kicked in.


That's just plain rudeness. In any culture, in any language, that's just plain obnoxious.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

rona said:


> While camping last weekend, I left OH with dogs and went for a walk on my own.
> Walking up the side of heathland with a hedge between me and the road, I could hear young voices, they were speaking in a foriegn language that I couldn't understand.
> I knew that on the other side of the road there was a secluded car park and just up ahead I would come into full view. I stopped to listen, as I would if the had been speaking English, however I couldn't tell from their tone and voices, if they were larking around or doing something like torturing a kitten (example only).
> If they had been speaking English I could have had more of a clue because I would have understood what they were saying. As it was I felt quite uncomfortable about showing myself and crept as quickly as possible to a place out of view.
> ...


I often walk or cycle through under passes, walk the dogs in the evening or just pop out. I never have reason for concern. I consider myself quiet sensible and able to judge situations keeping myself safe.
A little while ago I was walking through the underpass close to my home. In front of me were two men walking towards me . Behind me were a few others following the same route.. Both parties started conversing with each other.Talking in excited raised voices over me. I could not understand the language and for the first time ever I felt nervous. I was angry at myself and unnerved about the situation.
It was not racism just realisation for once I may have actually been vunerable because I could not read the situation.
ETA That as I passed the group coming towards me one chap greeted me. That instant did really get me though and I was cross at myself for feeling that way..


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

stargren said:


> nope don't go to wales and i am aware there are people who are here on there hols as well .
> i was on about people who live here not visit .


Wow. You really need to bin those blinkers and get out of England. There is world out there, you know.

How embarrassing.


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'll likely be doing my masters in Sweden, most people speak better English than a lot of native speakers do and the course is taught in English, but I'm still learning the language. Doesn't mean that if say my sister came to stay I wouldn't be speaking English to her. People can know and use multiple languages at once you know


----------



## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language


This attitude irritates me. So when you are in France on holiday you speak French all the time? or Germany? or Italy?

My friend who works in Sainsbury's says the same thing as you that when in England they should speak English but woe betide anyone that can't speak English in a foreign land when they are on holiday! pmsl!


----------



## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

shamykebab said:


> Wow. You really need to bin those blinkers and get out of England. There is world out there, you know.
> 
> How embarrassing.


So how do you know they live here and aren't visiting relative on holiday?


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Iheartcats said:


> This attitude irritates me. So when you are in France on holiday you speak French all the time? or Germany? or Italy?
> 
> My friend who works in Sainsbury's says the same thing as you that when in England they should speak English but woe betide anyone that can't speak English in a foreign land when they are on holiday! pmsl!


She doesn't go abroad for hols - she goes to Centre Parks.

Nope, not racist at all, is she?


----------



## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

shamykebab said:


> Wow. You really need to bin those blinkers and get out of England. There is world out there, you know.
> 
> How embarrassing.


So how do you know they live here and aren't visiting relative on holiday?

Sorry this is mean to be a reply to a previous comment!


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> She doesn't go abroad for hols - she goes to Centre Parks.
> 
> Nope, not racist at all, is she?


What are the Centre Parks?


----------



## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

My friend went to France on holiday and moaned as it was all full of "foreigners" lol! You just can't educate some people.....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ouesi said:


> What are the Centre Parks?


Holiday parks sort of like camping sites but with more activities
Short Breaks, Weekend Breaks and Family Holidays UK | Center Parcs


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language


Who said they *couldnt* speak English? if 5 Poles want to converse in Polish in Tesco's why shouldnt they, it doesnt mean they CANT speak English

never assume, it makes an ASS out of U and ME


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Holiday parks sort of like camping sites but with more activities
> Short Breaks, Weekend Breaks and Family Holidays UK | Center Parcs


Yeah, I thought that's how you spelled the Center in Center Parcs. Spell checker is reminding me I'm made an error.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Iheartcats said:


> My friend went to France on holiday and moaned as it was all full of "foreigners" lol! You just can't educate some people.....


It was France, all rants and moans are OK


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

stargren said:


> and no i am not racist !


The only person this can possibly convince is you. Others will come to their own conclusion based on the other content of your posts.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

stargren said:


> yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!
> 
> *seems as in our nursery has both kids and parents who can not speak english but yet they expect to mix with english kids and adults not knowing what they are going on about .*


I can't see the harm in that, when I lived in Riyadh I went to a nursery where I was the only one who spoke English, all the rest of the children spoke Arabic, according to my mam I picked it up incredibly quickly & I still remember my best friends from that far back. Kids that age just seem to get on with it, it's the adults who fuss.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> While camping last weekend, I left OH with dogs and went for a walk on my own.
> Walking up the side of heathland with a hedge between me and the road, I could hear young voices, they were speaking in a foriegn language that I couldn't understand.
> I knew that on the other side of the road there was a secluded car park and just up ahead I would come into full view. I stopped to listen, as I would if the had been speaking English, however I couldn't tell from their tone and voices, if they were larking around or *doing something like torturing a kitten (example only).*If they had been speaking English I could have had more of a clue because I would have understood what they were saying. As it was I felt quite uncomfortable about showing myself and crept as quickly as possible to a place out of view.
> 
> I think it's possibly fear of the unknown, though I'm not one to dwell on these things normally and had I seen them first rather than heard them, I probably would have been much more comfortable


The mind boggles at someone whose first thought is that people may be torturing kittens???????????????????????????????????????????????

At best bizarre at worst................. well words fail me.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

shamykebab said:


> Wow. You really need to bin those blinkers and get out of England. There is world out there, you know.
> 
> How embarrassing.


This is almost as judgmental as stargen's posts. What's it to you whether she gets out of England or not?

So much intolerance for differences, sheesh.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> The mind boggles at someone whose first thought is that people may be torturing kittens???????????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> At best bizarre at worst................. well words fail me.


AKA argument from ignorance.

I dont know what these people are saying so from there I conclude that they must be torturing a kitten.

Where logically, the sentence should stop at I dont know.

You cant conclude something from not knowing, you can only conclude from knowing.

Its the same thing with I dont understand what theyre saying but I know theyre talking about me. No you dont, you just said you dont know what theyre saying.

"it is a sign of great inner insecurity to be hostile to the unfamiliar. ~Anais Nin


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> It was France, all rants and moans are OK


Now that's nasty.


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I've been to France three times including Paris and never had any issues even with my rather limited French. It helps if you at least try to speak the language. I'm sure the snobby, superior stereotype holds true for some but then again the stereotype of the chav just shouting slowly in English and expecting the world to speak English does for some English people as well.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> I've been to France three times including Paris and never had any issues even with my rather limited French. It helps if you at least try to speak the language. I'm sure the snobby, superior stereotype holds true for some but then again the stereotype of the chav just shouting slowly in English and expecting the world to speak English does for some English people as well.


hmm, I resorted to shouting loudly in english after all my attempts at speaking in french were met with derision, laughing and rudeness. Im sure not all french people are like this...just the ones who I met and tried to communicate with!
(oh, and I dont think its racist to hate the french is it?? unless they are actually a different race to you!)


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> hmm, I resorted to shouting loudly in english after all my attempts at speaking in french were met with derision, laughing and rudeness. Im sure not all french people are like this...just the ones who I met and tried to communicate with!
> (oh, and I dont think its racist to hate the french is it?? unless they are actually a different race to you!)


Oh, right, because getting louder in a language someone doesnt understand makes it all that more comprehensible. :lol:

If your French was difficult to understand, the laughing and perceived rudeness may have been a sign of frustration. All of us generally want to be able to understand and be understood, and sometimes the frustration at not achieving communication comes off as rudeness or dismissiveness. Or it could just be that you met a rude French person or two. Rude people exist in all nationalities and cultures.

Hating the French is not racist, no. Hating a group of people just because they are a certain nationality is prejudiced, and I guess also xenophobic to an extent.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

My friends are Greek, they were born in the UK and their parents too, but they keep up with speaking Greek in the Greek community.
They all speak excellent English and always have.

I have always said if I could speak another language fluently with family and friends I would in public to stop nosey people from eavesdropping, as do my Greek friends. I think it comes in handy when people are listening in on things that have nothing to do with them.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> It was France, all rants and moans are OK





Happy Paws said:


> Now that's nasty.


Agreed nasty
however
had you said
'it was Parisians all rants and moans are ok'
then that would have been verging on the truth
as even the French dislike Parisians 



lorilu said:


> This is almost as judgmental as stargen's posts. What's it to you whether she gets out of England or not?
> 
> So much intolerance for differences, sheesh.


I think [ I hope]what was meant was to go visit other countries/cultures and widen her horizons a little
rather than a nasty
'get out of England!!'


----------



## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

lorilu said:


> This is almost as judgmental as stargen's posts. What's it to you whether she gets out of England or not?
> 
> So much intolerance for differences, sheesh.


Because it's people with this sort of attitude who breed intolerance in this country and in the rest of the world.

My parents will speak in another language to each other when out and about, yet in her role as an NVQ assessor my mother's English was better than many of the (native English) speakers she was instructing. She is fluent in four other languages and can easily switch between them.

What harm is being done to the native speakers of this country if someone prefers to speak in their mother-tongue in a supermarket? I'm so sick of intolerance in this world.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

shamykebab said:


> Because it's people with this sort of attitude who breed intolerance in this country and in the rest of the world.
> 
> My parents will speak in another language to each other when out and about, yet in her role as an NVQ assessor my mother's English was better than many of the (native English) speakers she was instructing. She is fluent in four other languages and can easily switch between them.
> 
> What harm is being done to the native speakers of this country if someone prefers to speak in their mother-tongue in a supermarket? I'm so sick of intolerance in this world.


What is a native speaker in the UK anyway? Aren't there several other native languages in the UK aside from English?


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

shamykebab said:


> Because it's people with this sort of attitude who breed intolerance in this country and in the rest of the world.
> 
> My parents will speak in another language to each other when out and about, yet in her role as an NVQ assessor my mother's English was better than many of the (native English) speakers she was instructing. She is fluent in four other languages and can easily switch between them.
> 
> What harm is being done to the native speakers of this country if someone prefers to speak in their mother-tongue in a supermarket? I'm so sick of intolerance in this world.


You have misunderstood my comment. I agree with you about stargen's intolerance for people speaking another language.

What I find difficult to reconcile is your ridiculing of stargen for never having been out of England. You are exhibiting the same kind of intolerance as stargen. What difference does it make where stargen has been or not been in his/her life? Lack of travel does not necessarily mean closed minded or intolerant.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

It conjures a rather amusing image in my mind.... Rona (who I imagine to be a respectable, country lady) sneaking along a hedgerow looking befuddled 

FWIW, I am not that comfortable with people talking in another language, especially when serving me in shops... I went in with a friend from Pakistan and she told me they making derogatory comments about female customers


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Muze said:


> It conjures a rather amusing image in my mind.... Rona (who I imagine to be a respectable, country lady) sneaking along a hedgerow looking befuddled
> 
> FWIW, I am not that comfortable with people talking in another language, especially when serving me in shops... I went in with a friend from Pakistan and she told me they making derogatory comments about female customers


I've been in shops (New Look & Toys R Us!!) where English speaking shop assistants have made derogatory comments about their customers whilst the said customers are standing right in front of them


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

I do find it sad that our society today are so fearful, suspicious and cautious of other people 

When I am walking in the countryside the last thing I think when I see a group of people is that they may want to hurt me or have some form of confrontation. I just think, like me, they are a walking group having a good time. Not having a walk in the countryside wanting to hurt someone.

To be honest if I heard a group of people chatting behind a hedge and I felt cautious and vuberable then surely I would continue walking away as they cannot hear me. Not stand and listen.

I will admit I am cautious of young teens in big groups if they are displaying drunk behaviour. However, I just walk past them and be on my way. Never any problem.

If I am ever cautious of someone I pass, I usually avoid eye contact and just keep walking.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Blackcats said:


> I just don't know how you make out a group of people chattering makes you fear and become vunerable???


Oh for the invincibility that is youth 



smokeybear said:


> The mind boggles at someone whose first thought is that people may be torturing kittens???????????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> At best bizarre at worst................. well words fail me.


I was trying to get something for effect  :lol:

If you could see me and I was telling you all this, you would realise that it's slightly jovial


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> hmm, I resorted to shouting loudly in english after all my attempts at speaking in french were met with derision, laughing and rudeness. Im sure not all french people are like this...just the ones who I met and tried to communicate with!
> (oh, and I dont think its racist to hate the french is it?? unless they are actually a different race to you!)


I'm sorry you had a bad experience.

As most people of another language respect the fact you give it a go and try.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

If I was out in the countryside I would feel uncomfortable if they were talking in a language I did'nt understand but if they were talking and I understood then I would know if I needed to make a quick exit.Most of the folk that work for me speak Polish and a bit of English but we seem to muddle along OK.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Blackcats said:


> I do find it sad that our society today are so fearful, suspicious and cautious of other people
> 
> When I am walking in the countryside the last thing I think when I see a group of people is that they may want to hurt me or have some form of confrontation. I just think, like me, they are a walking group having a good time. Not having a walk in the countryside wanting to hurt someone.
> 
> ...


I've lived and walked alone in the countryside for double the time you have been in existence. Passed probably up to a million people in that time and can count only a handful of times I've felt even the slightest uncomfortable.....go figure


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> Why?
> When we are on holiday in France we always speak english to each other wherever we are, only french when needed, is that wrong as well???????


Yes, I expect so. :frown2:

However the poster in question only ever holidays in England, so they are never in such a position themselves. 

Never mind the fact that most of us, traced back far enough, are immigrants anyway. There was once a time when much of the English population spoke French.

I must admit I quote Hanlon's razor to myself when reading stargren's posts.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

rona said:


> I've lived and walked alone in the countryside for double the time you have been in existence. Passed probably up to a million people in that time and can count only a handful of times I've felt even the slightest uncomfortable.....go figure


Just trying to wrap ny head around the fact you were uncomfortable on the walk when the people were talking, you could not see them and they you, but you stopped to listen.

Baffling.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

stargren said:


> yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!
> 
> seems as in our nursery has both kids and parents who can not speak english but yet they expect to mix with english kids and adults not knowing what they are going on about .


funnily enough, my response to this was going to be...

this.


Summersky said:


> Out of interest, what is your opinion of BSL? (British Sign language?) Is that rude? it's quite excluding.


this is my pet hate- people who dislike 'foreigners' not speaking english constantly when they are not trying to tlak to anyone who doesn't understand their first language... but do you know how many people here in UK are deaf? you're being rude and excluding them by not learning BSL- which stands for BRITISH SIGN LANGUAGE. please note the word British there.
as a kid i was fluent- now even though i have my level 1 i am ashamed to say that i cannot sign as fast as i could when younger (out of practice).
as my mum works in a school for the deaf and blind she felt it was only right i learned to communicate- and i am soo happy she did!

so next time you are complaining about someone not speaking our own language fluently even though they are living here, just think of all the deaf community that you are discluding by not learning the (still British) language they communicate with. (they are expected to lip read and attempt speech regardless of whether they are completely deaf, have a cochlear implant etc.)

but Rona- if that is your normal response to that situation regardless of language then nope, absolutely not racist. but i am wondering why you personally felt you needed to check it wasn't? did you wonder to yourself after the incident if it was racist or not? x


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

A certain stretch of the River Wissey I walk has a few Polish fishermen at times, never occurred to me to wonder what they are saying to each other ....

Probably 'there's that annoying woman with the horrible dog that barks all the time' .... as Roxy used to do when we walked past them


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

mrs phas said:


> Agreed nasty
> however
> had you said
> 'it was Parisians all rants and moans are ok'
> ...


The same as here if people are honest, most us don't like Londoners.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Blackcats said:


> Just trying to wrap ny head around the fact you were uncomfortable on the walk when the people were talking, you could not see them and they you, but you stopped to listen.
> 
> Baffling.


Rona, sorry for speaking in your place:

Blackcats, she didn't stop to _listen_, she stopped to_ hear._

She wanted to _hear_ if the voices had any threatening (from her point of view) connotations to them.


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> The same as here if people are honest, most us don't like Londoners.


personally, i'm just not overly fond of city people! (or maybe it's just cities and those that make the place into a city!)


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> The mind boggles at someone whose first thought is that people may be torturing kittens


Youve not heard bagpipes i take it?


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> The same as here if people are honest, most us don't like Londoners.


are there any left?

gawd bless yer mary poppins!


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> The same as here if people are honest, most us don't like Londoners.


Oh yeah Londoners. Who could possibly like them.


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

lorilu said:


> Rona, sorry for speaking in your place:
> 
> Blackcats, she didn't stop to _listen_, she stopped to_ hear._
> 
> She wanted to _hear_ if the voices had any threatening (from her point of view) connotations to them.


Still do not understand.

Yes, they weren't speaking in English. Irregardless. It would not make me want to stop and 'listen' to see if there is any threatening connotation, as you put, to them.

Now if I were walking and heard a group of people talking behind a hedge, English or not, what would make me stop and try to listen? Don't get it, aside from wanting to know what someone is talking about which I wouldn't because I have better things to do than worry about what a group of people are saying.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Blackcats said:


> Still do not understand.
> 
> Yes, they weren't speaking in English. Irregardless. It would not make me want to stop and 'listen' to see if there is any threatening connotation, as you put, to them.
> 
> Now if I were walking and heard a group of people talking behind a hedge, English or not, *what would make me stop and try to listen? Don't get it, aside from wanting to know what someone is talking about which I wouldn't because I have better things to do than worry about what a group of people are saying*.


I don't know ... depends what they are talking about .....


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Some of the comments on this thread are incredulous.

I am a Londoner living in the Countryside pmsl.

Living in London I learnt alot about different cultures, met life long friends whom are greek, indian, turkish, jamaican to name a few.

How boring to not open yourself up to enjoy what you can learn from different cultures.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> Oh yeah Londoners. Who could possibly like them.


Well I don't


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Blackcats said:


> Still do not understand.
> 
> Yes, they weren't speaking in English. Irregardless. It would not make me want to stop and 'listen' to see if there is any threatening connotation, as you put, to them.
> 
> Now if I were walking and heard a group of people talking behind a hedge, English or not, what would make me stop and try to listen? Don't get it, aside from wanting to know what someone is talking about which I wouldn't because I have better things to do than worry about what a group of people are saying.


People are different. You don't feel vulnerable in an isolated place with unknown, unseen group of people nearby, someone else does.

_She had no interest in "what they were talking about"_. *She was trying to judge if she was at risk.*

You may understand someday, maybe you won't. It doesn't matter. People are different. Some feel vulnerable, some don't, and everything in between.


----------



## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Well I don't


Why dont you like us:sad:


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

lorilu said:


> So what? People are different. You don't feel vulnerable in an isolated place with unknown, unseen group of people nearby, someone else does.
> 
> She had no interest in "what they were talking about". *She was trying to judge if she was at risk.*
> 
> You may understand someday, maybe you won't. It doesn't matter. People are different. Some feel vulnerable, some don't, and everything in between.


Please don't patronise me.

I completely understand.

What I don't understand is how Rona felt at risk when a hedge was hiding her and the people didn't even know she was there.

Hell of a risk there.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

lorilu said:


> Rona, sorry for speaking in your place:
> 
> Blackcats, she didn't stop to _listen_, she stopped to_ hear._
> 
> She wanted to _hear_ if the voices had any threatening (from her point of view) connotations to them.


Okay, I get feeling vulnerable.

But I guess what Im struggling with her, is how can you tell from a conversation in a language that you dont understand, if someone is behaving in a threatening or potentially threatening way? Or is torturing kittens for that matter?

What does threatening sound like in a foreign language?

OH was telling me something that happened at work and he was quite worked up about it, he sounded very angry because he was - at the situation at work. Had someone been listening in on the conversation without understanding the language, who knows what they would have concluded.

Im all for listening to that gut instinct and taking intelligent precautions when it comes to our safety, but as in so many things, there is a balance. And assuming the worst about someone based on them speaking a different language lacks balance IMO.


----------



## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> Some of the comments on this thread are incredulous.
> 
> I am a Londoner living in the Countryside pmsl.
> 
> ...


Totally!!! Raciscm is still rife though unfortunately. I don't have a racist bone in my body but when we we went camping back in July the campsite was full when we arrived and I noticed a family leaving so asked if we could use their spot when they left. They were Eastern European - Polish I think anyway they asked if they could leave their tent there to dry out and I said of course anyway my husband is VERY suspicious of Eastern Europeans and said to me "Huh! Don't be surprised if some of your belongings are missing when you get back" as we were spending the day at the beach and I was horrified! I really let rip and said how dare he use such sweeping generalisations and not all Polish/Romanian etc are pick pocketing criminals and living off the state!

As it happened all of my belongings were as they were left!


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Well I don't


That is your (ignorant) choice but why make a sweeping statement saying most dont like Londoners?

Look personally dont give a hoot if you like me or not pmsl but sweeping statements make me


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Blackcats said:


> Please don't patronise me.
> 
> I completely understand.
> 
> ...


But, at times, if you are feeling a bit vunerable, logic doesn't come in to it

I used to be fearless when I was younger, nothing worried me & I would go anywhere without feeling any fear. As I've gotten older things have changed & I am far more aware of potential dangers, at times they can be a bit far fethched... especially where the dogs are concerned.


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Well I don't


Thats horrible and unnecessary


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> Well I don't


That's rather harsh.



suewhite said:


> Why dont you like us:sad:





ClaireLouise said:


> Thats horrible and unnecessary


Quite. I was born in London, as were my parents, and we're all really nice people. 

Luckily, I don't base whether or not I like someone on where they were born. Needless intolerance is one of my biggest pet hates.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Blackcats said:


> Please don't patronise me.
> 
> I completely understand.
> 
> ...


I'm not patronizing you. However, your refusal to understand makes me wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse, because, in general, your posts strike me as coming from someone with intelligence.

You either obviously don't "completely understand" or are deliberately trying to make a fuss. I am responding to your harping on Rona stopping to listen to the voices in an effort to judge if she felt safe exposing her solitary position to the people on the other side, while you continue to focus on the fact that she stopped to "hear to a conversation that was not her business."

She didn't stop to "hear the conversation". She stopped to listen, to judge if she felt safe exposing her self to a group of strangers. She decided she did not feel safe in that situation, so she went another way.

Whether you would choose to feel safe or not, is not the point. The point is, she did not.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Intolerance if one of my pet peeves too. My son is learning Japanese off his own bat. He's doing it just for fun because he loves the people (from who he's personally met), the culture and everything else he's learnt through the internet but my step-dads first reaction was "why the dickens does he want to learn the language of the Japs for? They are very cruel people". Now he is basing his opinion on how the Japanese treated the POW's in the second world war! He married a German! The Nazis were just as bad historically.

I think alot of racism comes from family values.

Fortunately for me my kids are mature enough to realise that we live in a multi-cultual society these days.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

suewhite said:


> Why dont you like us:sad:


Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Blackcats said:


> I do find it sad that our society today are so fearful, suspicious and cautious of other people
> 
> *When I am walking in the countryside the last thing I think when I see a group of people is that they may want to hurt me or have some form of confrontation.* I just think, like me, they are a walking group having a good time. Not having a walk in the countryside wanting to hurt someone.
> 
> ...


Re bold - for me that would depend on the group and how they were behaving, again an instinctual reaction.

I don't suppose that Rona stood and listened for a length of time, just paused and listened to try and gauge who was there and what was happening.

Not nosiness, just self preservation.



kodakkuki said:


> personally, i'm just not overly fond of city people! (or maybe it's just cities and those that make the place into a city!)





gorgeous said:


> Oh yeah Londoners. Who could possibly like them.


This makes me sad.  I was born in London, now live in a village. my Mum was born in London, my Dad in Durham.

What's the matter with Londoners; and what is a typical Londoner for that matter?



Happy Paws said:


> Well I don't


Why not? That just seems so narrow. Salt of the earth we are.  My Mum would help anyone and everyone, and I'm the same.

What do you perceive the typical Londoner to be?



Cleo38 said:


> But, at times, if you are feeling a bit vunerable, logic doesn't come in to it
> 
> I used to be fearless when I was younger, nothing worried me & I would go anywhere without feeling any fear. As I've gotten older things have changed & I am far more aware of potential dangers, at times they can be a bit far fethched... especially where the dogs are concerned.


That's life experience versus the naivety of youth that is.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


Oh wow, youve met that many Londoners and know enough about them to judge their personality and world knowledge? Im impressed!


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well you made I laugh that's for sure.

Strangely enough, even though I was born and grew up in London, we still ventured all the way up north to Durham to see my Dad's family.

Surely, people are people everywhere, and everywhere there are good and bad.

Self centred I am not. Arrogant?? Oh wow. I am almost speechless.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Blackcats said:


> Please don't patronise me.
> 
> I completely understand.
> 
> ...


Because I was coming up to a place that put me in their view. I did say that in the first post


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


WRONG!!! I'm neither self-centred nor arrogant, and I live in Staffordshire so hardly think the world ends at Watford.   :cornut:



ouesi said:


> Oh wow, youve met that many Londoners and know enough about them to judge their personality and world knowledge? Im impressed!


As I said, needless intolerance.

Hanlon's razor... Hanlon's razor...


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


   Terrible thing to say,


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


Not all of 'them' surely? Have you met every persob who lives in London and comes from there?

Bad generalisation.


----------



## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

ClaireLouise said:


> Terrible thing to say,


On the basis of Happy Paws' comments, I could say that all Brummies are callous, ignorant and narrow-minded.

Luckily I know enough people from the Midlands to know that just isn't true, and I refuse to tar all people with the same brush just because of the part of the country in which they popped out of the womb.


----------



## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


I am actually lost for words have you had a bad experience with one of us Londoners.:biggrin:


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

suewhite said:


> I am actually lost for words have you had a bad experience with one of us Londoners.:biggrin:


Even so, one swallow doesn't make a summer.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Rona, sorry for speaking in your place:
> .


No problem, you've put it better than I anyway.
Thankyou 



kodakkuki said:


> but Rona- if that is your normal response to that situation regardless of language then nope, absolutely not racist. but i am wondering why you personally felt you needed to check it wasn't? did you wonder to yourself after the incident if it was racist or not? x


No I didn't think it was, just wondered what others thought because I know I'm very out of step with what is the norm.
To be honest, I have such little to do with people, it's only this forum that keeps me "connected" in any way.
I do know that some think of me as racist and homophobic, purely because neither has been a part of my life and therefore make me slightly uncomfortable at times.
Then again, people with kids make me uncomfortable as do social climbers, I've not mixed with them either



Iheartcats said:


> Intolerance if one of my pet peeves too. My son is learning Japanese off his own bat. He's doing it just for fun because he loves the people (from who he's personally met), the culture and everything else he's learnt through the internet but my step-dads first reaction was "why the dickens does he want to learn the language of the Japs for? They are very cruel people". Now he is basing his opinion on how the Japanese treated the POW's in the second world war! He married a German! The Nazis were just as bad historically.
> 
> I think alot of racism comes from family values.
> 
> Fortunately for me my kids are mature enough to realise that we live in a multi-cultual society these days.


One of my uncles was extreme in his hatred for the Japanese. I could understand and even sympathize with his stance as he'd been a POW. No one ever knew what he'd been through


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


Aww bless you. So sweet. Would you like to come round for some pie and mash and we could have a right old knees up my dear!


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

suewhite said:


> I am actually lost for words have you had a bad experience with one of us Londoners.:biggrin:


No, many of them over the years.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> No, many of them over the years.


May I ask if you're calling me self-centred, arrogant and geographically challenged? Bearing in mind you've never met me?


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> Well I don't


Aw thanks, I'm full of the warm fuzzies now!

That's a bit harsh, there's an awful lot of people living in London and I think we're all quite different.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


We all hate Breed Specific Legislation, I assume?

Condemning an entire Breed as all being the same we've all spoken out against.

So everyone who lives in London is an a**e basically?

So intolerance in the dog world isn't on, but it's okay to despise the inhabitants of an entire City?


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> Aw thanks, I'm full of the warm fuzzies now!
> 
> That's a bit harsh, there's an awful lot of people living in London and I think we're all quite different.


Nope, apparently London is a microcosm of 8.3 million identical, inherently dislikeable people.


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> No, many of them over the years.


But you cannot then say all people from London display that behaviour.

Been to London myself and hated it (Sorry guys  I found it too fast paced and unsociable. Rush. Rush. Rush. Busy and overcrowded. I was visiting the tourist places so that would definitely be a factor.

I did find some of the people I passed to be rude. However, the people who served me in the pub were friendly enough.

I do come from a small town though where you pretty much know everyone so it is tight knit and bunched together. Probably why I found London so difficult.

But then I didn't personally interact with anyone from there, and went during the day and summer hols which would be naturally hectic.

So I personally disliked London but I don't then assume that what I experienced is always like that.


----------



## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

This thread has certainly given me food for thought, I have never been to a non-English speaking country (unless Wales counts)... so I suppose I have not had to give it much thought.


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> Nope, apparently London is a microcosm of 8.3 million identical, inherently dislikeable people.


The thing is, it's so diverse that different parts are like different parts of the country.
It's not all Oxford street and Covent Garden and all rush, rush, rush. Here we are very like the countryside.

I don't understand how anyone can say they hate all eight million of us in London when you haven't barely scratched the surface of us even in say ten trips.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> The thing is, it's so diverse that different parts are like different parts of the country.
> It's not all Oxford street and Covent Garden and all rush, rush, rush. Here we are very like the countryside.
> 
> I don't understand how anyone can say they hate all eight million of us in London when you haven't barely scratched the surface of us even in say ten trips.


Ignorance? Jealousy? Fear? Plain old 'you're different from me so I don't like you'?

Dunno, really. People of all sorts live together in London and, for the most part, get on pretty well it seems.


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Iheartcats said:


> Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.


True I guess.



Happy Paws said:


> No, many of them over the years.


But not me, or mine.

A the age of 85, my great aunt, living in the cheap end of the Monopoly board, would still go out and get the papers and shopping "for the old people" nearby. She was hard working and would always help anyone out.

My Mum was the same.

Me too for that matter.

Families lived side by side like extended families back then.

I would never judge the Welsh or the Glaswegians or anyone else by a few I had met.



Blackcats said:


> But you cannot then say all people from London display that behaviour.
> 
> Been to London myself and hated it* (Sorry guys  I found it too fast paced and unsociable. Rush. Rush. Rush. Busy and overcrowded.
> *
> ...


Yes, it is hard and fast.

I loved the pace of life when I worked in the city, but I have slowed down a bit now I live in a village.

And yes, you don't say hello to everyone on the street as you walk along, the way we do round here, and are more wary of "strangers". But in the confines of a shop, at the bus stop etc people do still chat to people they don't know.

HP, that doesn't make us self centred or arrogant or rude, you just have to be more aware and careful in cities - any cities.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

Sweety said:


> We all hate Breed Specific Legislation, I assume?
> 
> Condemning an entire Breed as all being the same we've all spoken out against.
> 
> ...


IIRC this particular poster does not oppose BSL either.
Hey, at least she's consistent!


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> The thing is, it's so diverse that different parts are like different parts of the country.
> It's not all Oxford street and Covent Garden and all rush, rush, rush. Here we are very like the countryside.
> 
> I don't understand how anyone can say they hate all eight million of us in London when you haven't barely scratched the surface of us even in say ten trips.


I adore Covent Garden. The street entertainers, Royal Opera House, great restaurants and pubs!

Did not realise that it was full of self centred arrogant and geograohically challenged people!


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

My sister's working in London at the minute, she had such a culture shock the first couple of weeks. So many people and so much activity. But she's enjoyed it so far and apparently all the Londoners she's met have been friendly. Must be her accent


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Blackcats said:


> But you cannot then say all people from London display that behaviour.
> 
> Been to London myself and hated it (Sorry guys  I found it too fast paced and unsociable. Rush. Rush. Rush. Busy and overcrowded. I was visiting the tourist places so that would definitely be a factor.
> 
> ...


But that's different from what Happy Paws is saying. You are expressing an opinion about a _place_. That's just personal preferences, everyone has them. I see nothing wrong with that! HP has decided that 8 million _people_ are to be hated. :biggrin:

I dislike cities in that I would not want to live in a big city. but visiting..that's a bit different, after all. I went to London on my honeymoon. I loved it, it was fun and beautiful and different! I liked being called "mum".


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> I adore Covent Garden. The street entertainers, Royal Opera House, great restaurants and pubs!
> 
> Did not realise that it was full of self centred arrogant and geograohically challenged people!


Me too! I love covent garden and all of it's little nooks and crannies and theatre land.

TBH I don't think it is, everyone has always been lovely everywhere I ever go and quite embracing.

In my little town everyone says hello when you walk down the street, especially walking the dog. We all do favours for each other and there's a closeness and a helpfulness for those in need too. Us horrible Londoners huh?


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Blackcats said:


> But you cannot then say all people from London display that behaviour.
> 
> *Been to London myself and hated it (Sorry guys  I found it too fast paced and unsociable. Rush. Rush. Rush. Busy and overcrowded.* I was visiting the tourist places so that would definitely be a factor.
> 
> ...


To the bit in bold: That is how I feel when I visit London, my cousin lives there and a couple of days staying over is enough for me tbh...Everyone is in such a rush 

But then I am Cornish and in Cornwall it is a case of things will get done...eventually - or dreckley as the Cornish say 
So for me, even Suffolk is a much faster pace of life :lol:


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

IrishEyes said:


> So, one shouldn't be free to speak their own language?


The big supermarkets all have the same rule: English on the shop floor. It is still the majority language (just ) I confess, I get annoyed at shop assistants having obviously personal conversations in whatever language because I find it makes it hard to interrupt/approach them when they should be working, not having a social.

Talking of Wales, having lived in various parts for years, I would walk into a shop and having heard them speaking English, they'd switch to Welsh when they saw a stranger. Saying that, I'll speak French or Spanish in the Staffroom when speaking to my French or Spanish girls. It's a private conversation, I'm sick of being in bother for saying whatever and it's extremely tiring to operate in a foreign language constantly, so it gives them a break. If someone joins us for lunch, we all switch to English.



Happy Paws said:


> Well I don't


I think it's very disappointing to hear that. Saying that is very prejudiced and I'm really surprised that you can dismiss an entire city. I mean, I dislike many Geordies for their total drunkenness and very poor behaviour at football matches etc, but as a Geordie, I know an awful lot so I can say this with authority. However. I would never say I hate them _all_ because I'm never going to meet them all, they're all individuals and that's a mad thing to say.

I strongly believe that if you move to a country, you should make every possible effort to learn the language, it's the proper thing to do. It does worry me that parents don't make the effort and rely on using their kids as their translation service and taking them out of school. I know it's what many do, but they create non-English speaking ghettos by choosing to live near each other-naturally-but it hinders their ability to learn the language.


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Me too! I love covent garden and all of it's little nooks and crannies and theatre land.
> 
> TBH I don't think it is, everyone has always been lovely everywhere I ever go and quite embracing.
> 
> In my little town everyone says hello when you walk down the street, especially walking the dog. We all do favours for each other and there's a closeness and a helpfulness for those in need too. Us horrible Londoners huh?


I was born and brought up in London , spent over 30 years there. Still have family and friends there.

There are good and bad in everyone.

Poor Happy Paws to hate us all! Dont know what she is missing!:biggrin5:


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> The big supermarkets all have the same rule: English on the shop floor. It is still the majority language (just ) I confess, I get annoyed at shop assistants having obviously personal conversations in whatever language because I find it makes it hard to interrupt/approach them when they should be working, not having a social.
> 
> Talking of Wales, having lived in various parts for years, I would walk into a shop and having heard them speaking English, they'd switch to Welsh when they saw a stranger. Saying that, I'll speak French or Spanish in the Staffroom when speaking to my French or Spanish girls. It's a private conversation, I'm sick of being in bother for saying whatever and it's extremely tiring to operate in a foreign language constantly, so it gives them a break. If someone joins us for lunch, we all switch to English.
> 
> ...


Most people who move here do try to learn our language, probably making a far better job than us should we move to their Country.

Howver I do not see a problem with them still speaking their language amongst their family and friends, after all it is part of their identity.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> IIRC this particular poster does not oppose BSL either.
> Hey, at least she's consistent!


Really?

You're right then, she is consistent and bitter, in my opinion.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> Most people who move here do try to learn our language, probably making a far better job than us should we move to their Country.
> 
> Howver I do not see a problem with them still speaking their language amongst their family and friends, after all it is part of their identity.


Nor do I, never said I did and tbh, meeting probably far more parents than the average person, my experience is still that they don't actually learn the language. Parents' Evenings can be slow and difficult!


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Summersky said:


> This makes me sad.  I was born in London, now live in a village. my Mum was born in London, my Dad in Durham.
> 
> What's the matter with Londoners; and what is a typical Londoner for that matter?
> 
> ...


Pretty much what black cats said. 
I don't like cities. I don't like any size of crowd and locked myself in my house for 4 years to avoid crowds. When people are in a crowd they become overwhelming. I like that the city has shops with nice things, I don't like that they are full of crowds, so avoid them. (And crowds are made of people- I don't dislike them individually, but can't cope with them in large numbers)
I hadn't even been thinking about London! Belfast is too crowed for me!

It wasn't me at as a rude comment! Simply a comment on how badly I cope with any number of people at the same time!


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> To the bit in bold: That is how I feel when I visit London, my cousin lives there and a couple of days staying over is enough for me tbh...Everyone is in such a rush
> 
> But then I am Cornish and in Cornwall it is a case of things will get done...eventually - or dreckley as the Cornish say
> So for me, even Suffolk is a much faster pace of life :lol:


:lol:

Fortunately I came to sunny Suffolk via Bristol, so had time to adjust to the slower pace of life.



kodakkuki said:


> Pretty much what black cats said.
> I don't like cities. I don't like any size of crowd and locked myself in my house for 4 years to avoid crowds. When people are in a crowd they become overwhelming. I like that the city has shops with nice things, I don't like that they are full of crowds, so avoid them. (And crowds are made of people- I don't dislike them individually, but can't cope with them in large numbers)
> I hadn't even been thinking about London! Belfast is too crowed for me!
> 
> It wasn't me at as a rude comment! Simply a comment on how badly I cope with any number of people at the same time!


Understand that fully - the pace of life is fast and furious, and wouldn't be for everyone. But that is the volume of people not the people themselves.

I wouldn't want to live there now, even though I was born there.

The thing though, is I am the same person, Londoner born and bred, wherever I live. I wonder what HP Thinks of that?


----------



## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

Ive been in the position where those around me are speaking a different language that i dont understand. It was my husband and 2 of his bangladeshi friends who didnt speak very good english. If they had spoken in english they wouldnt have been able to understand each other, so they spoke bengali instead. I was fine with it. Dosent bother me one bit. 

Same at my work. I work in an indian restuarant. I am the only female and one of two white people who work there. Many of the bangladeshi men speak english, but not fluently. And obviously when speaking to me they speak english. When talking to each other they do it in bengali. again i dont mind this, if at a busy tea time i just get on with work so dont have time to chat with anyone other than customers. At a less busy lunch time i still wouldnt care as i like to get on with work and daydream to myself. 

I wouldnt know about your situation rona as ive never been it. But i dont like big groups of people whether they are speaking another language or not.


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

When I meant I didn't like London it was because of my experience with how busy it was. Just in case I was misunderstood. 

It was also my first time in a big city so definitely overwhelming for me. I got hit in the head by handbags several times and banged into. Had quite a few bruises. I had strangers get into my face and demand I buy things, had people shove flowers into my hand and when I said I didn't want to buy, had it viciously taken from me.

Mind you, the people who banged into me might not have even been Londoners but tourists visiting like myself.  so I don't make the assumption.

It was an awful experience because I just could not keep up with the pace.

God knows what I would be like visiting New York, which I want to do. Something I would definitely have to get used to. 

I do find it sad Happypaws has generalised her feelings to all Londoners based on a few she met who may have been unpleasant.


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Blackcats said:


> When I meant I didn't like London it was because of my experience with how busy it was. Just in case I was misunderstood.
> 
> It was also my first time in a big city so definitely overwhelming for me. I got hit in the head by handbags several times and banged into. Had quite a few bruises. I had strangers get into my face and demand I buy things, had people shove flowers into my hand and when I said I didn't want to buy, had it viciously taken from me.
> 
> ...


Fully understand what you were saying - and what a horrible experience. That's a real shame.


----------



## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

not racist, just nosy.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

lorilu said:


> People are different. You don't feel vulnerable in an isolated place with unknown, unseen group of people nearby, someone else does.
> 
> _She had no interest in "what they were talking about"_. *She was trying to judge if she was at risk.*
> 
> You may understand someday, maybe you won't. It doesn't matter. People are different. Some feel vulnerable, some don't, and everything in between.


But that's the thing, isn't it? She had the advantage in that she knew they were there. Presumably, they couldn't see, or hear her so couldn't possibly have been any threat to her.

And, surely, even if they were speaking in a different language, you'd still be able to pick up clues as to whether it was conversation, something urgent, or something potentially life threatening simply by the tone of voice.

You also don't have to stop to "hear" - it's automatic - happens despite ourselves, rather than because of it. EG, I can hear the fish tank filters, the clock ticking and (not right now but) I can hear when the dog outside barks or when mine start playing. I don't have to stop what I'm doing to hear any of them. I would have to stop to _listen _though.



lorilu said:


> I'm not patronizing you. However, your refusal to understand makes me wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse, because, in general, your posts strike me as coming from someone with intelligence.
> 
> You either obviously don't "completely understand" or are deliberately trying to make a fuss. I am responding to your harping on Rona stopping to listen to the voices in an effort to judge if she felt safe exposing her solitary position to the people on the other side, while you continue to focus on the fact that she stopped to "hear to a conversation that was not her business."
> 
> ...


Yes, she stopped to listen, but she also said she'd stop to listen if it had have been in English. Now, let's say, for argument's sake, the people were talking in English. She stopped to listen. Now let's say you come round the corner and catch her listening to the conversation on the other side of the hedge. You don't know how long she's been there.

What would your reaction be? "Oh, it's clear she's stopped to judge whether she's at any potential risk if she shows herself to the group", or "_She's _eavesdropping"?



rona said:


> Because I was coming up to a place that put me in their view. I did say that in the first post


OK, so, as above, they would have had no reason to know you were there, until you came into their view, so how would they be any threat to you? Or how would they be discussing anything that would threaten you?


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

LinznMilly said:


> But that's the thing, isn't it? She had the advantage in that she knew they were there. Presumably, they couldn't see, or hear her so couldn't possibly have been any threat to her.
> 
> And, surely, even if they were speaking in a different language, you'd still be able to pick up clues as to whether it was conversation, something urgent, or something potentially life threatening simply by the tone of voice.
> 
> ...


GAH you are missing the point! LOL! Did you read the first post?

She had to make a choice whether to continue on and expose herself as a woman alone in an isolated spot to the group, or go a different way and not pass by them. She stopped to listen to determine, to herself, _which she felt most comfortable doing._

Because she couldn't understand the language, she listened to the tone of the voices. Did they sound drunk, or raucous, like a gang of kids or adults looking for trouble? Did they sound like a quiet group pausing on their hike to look at the view or to have a snack? And so on.

It's a perfectly understandable caution to take, in my opinion.

She wondered if her hesitation was brought on by the fact that she couldn't understand their words, or if she would have been hesitant in any case.

_I_ would have been hesitant, in any case. Not when I was younger., and never thought about if harm could come to me. Heck, I hitchhiked everywhere when I was a teenager. In my twenties I hung out in bars and crashed in people's living rooms I never met before. But with age has come wisdom and caution, and the knowledge that if anything should happen to me, my cats would be homeless.

So no, I do not think Rona's reaction was based on racism. I think it was based on good sense of self preservation.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> OK, so, as above, they would have had no reason to know you were there, until you came into their view, so how would they be any threat to you? Or how would they be discussing anything that would threaten you?


I was a woman alone in an isolated place with an unknown but obviously young group of people being rather loud on the other side of a hedge. I was trying to assess the risk to my safety. if they were drunk etc.
I'd do the same with visual and have sometimes had my phone ready and my finger ready to make a call. That's been with lone men usually.

If it had been a family group or even a quieter older group then I probably wouldn't have given it a thought.

I had another encounter with a group of youngsters that same weekend, on that occasion I was also on my own in a reasonably isolated place but they were sitting chatting. I past the time of day with them and ended up having a chat. Not once did I think that they may be a threat to my safety


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

rona said:


> If it had been a family group or even a quieter older group then I probably wouldn't have given it a thought.


A family group with kids? I thought they made you nervous too?



rona said:


> Then again, people with kids make me uncomfortable as do social climbers, I've not mixed with them either


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Nor do I, never said I did and tbh, meeting probably far more parents than the average person, my experience is still that they don't actually learn the language. Parents' Evenings can be slow and difficult!


I think people sometimes forget, that learning a language can be very difficult when you're an adult. It's even harder if you come to a foreign country just with your small family without knowing the language. How do people learn a language? You can start with learning grammar from books and listening to CDs etc. But in the end there is no better way to learn a language than actually using it in every day life. Of course it's all great to just suggest that in this case all these immigrants who come here should get over themselves and push themselves every day to speak to english people in order to learnt the language. In real life, these people have no one apart from each other. So obviously at home they will speak in their language. They will meet some people of their own nationality and most of the time these families will choose to 'hang-out' withing the same nationality circle. Why? Because they have similar backgrounds, they are in the similar situation because they all have come to a new country, they have similar or the same cultural backgrounds AND they find it easy to speak to someone about their every day problems when the other person speaks the same language. Immigrants who don't know the local language will inevitably end up being outsiders and without the language many locals will not even bother to try and make a conversation with them. So there's the path to learn the language by using it every day closed to them. Yes, they will probably learn the basic phrases like "I'd like one ticket to *******" but that won't get them far. It's a different case when the husband or wife is local or fluent in the language and can help because he will have his/her friends over and the spouse will eventually have to learn and will learn a lot of english because they constantly hear it in a social context. 
Now, I found this thread very interesting... and sometimes funny. When I was 3 me and my parents moved to my father's country of birth. Since I started talking I had a mixed vocabulary of my mum's and my dad's languages. When we moved I went to a local nursery. I didn't know the language and since everything was so unfamiliar and I was a shy girl it really didn't help that other kids didn't want to play with me because I didn't speak their language. However, one day after about 2 months I came home and announced to my mum that from that day I will never speak to her in her language and from now on I will only speak the new language: So here my poor mum was stuck in a new country where she didn't speak the language and her baby girl tells her to shove her language... So my mum started learning. it really helped that we lived in my dad's town so we had his whole extended family there and my mum learnt the language while communicating with them. My dad also helped. However, in the 22 years of our family living there she never became fluent. She just doesn't have the potential to get to that level. Languages are hard for her. Meanwhile I was lucky and got the talent from my dad and I am fluent in 3 languages and proficient in another 2. When I lived in Belgium I went to a european school where you had kids from 8 different european countries. Yet you didn't get offended by italian kids sitting at one table and speaking italian while the french were speaking french even though everyone in school could speak english. When me and my friends were out in town we would speak english and not french. Why because we didn't feel like strangers that were surrounding us had any business in what we're chatting about. Sometimes even while sitting at one table there would be some moments when suddenly the swedish would start chatting to each other in swedish, finnish in finnish and english/irish/scottish would have a moment in english. No one minded. 
Now that I live in scotland and work in a restaurant full of people from spain, poland and UK no one has any drama over someone chatting in a different language. Just because a couple of polish guys start chatting in polish i don't get paranoid that they're discussing me. Couldn't care less to be honest. Then again, me and another co-worker have our moments of chatting in russian. We're both from different countries but are both fluent in russian. We both can speak in english too. Why we like to chat in russian? Because it's nice to use another language that is sort of 'closer to home'. Because that sometimes gives us a chance of saying something that you wouldn't want others to understand e.g. start talking of period cramps while there's some guys at the bar.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Just popped in to see how this thread has progressed and it has

from downright ignorant prejudice to total baseless bigotry dressed up as reasonable fear but actually verging on paranoia


How very very sad


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Just popped in to see how this thread has progressed and it has
> 
> from downright ignorant prejudice to total baseless bigotry dressed up as reasonable fear but actually verging on paranoia
> 
> How very very sad


Walk a mile dear Smokey.......walk a mile


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


there is no world at watford. i have been there


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

rona said:


> Walk a mile dear Smokey.......walk a mile


thats what got you into bother in the first place, innit?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> thats what got you into bother in the first place, innit?


Didn't have no bovver bruv......took avoidin action


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

lorilu said:


> GAH you are missing the point! LOL! Did you read the first post?
> 
> She had to make a choice whether to continue on and expose herself as a woman alone in an isolated spot to the group, or go a different way and not pass by them. She stopped to listen to determine, to herself, _which she felt most comfortable doing._
> 
> ...


Yes, I read the first post, and if Rona had have said that she heard raised young voices and decided, in self preservation, to choose a path that would avoid her being seen, I would have completely understood and wouldn't be questioning it. What I'm having trouble seeing, is that she stopped to _listen_.

And I notice you haven't answered my question: If you caught Rona (or another woman), listening to a group of people who obviously didn't know she was there, what would be your kneejerk reaction? What would be the first thought that entered your head? Would you immediately think "She's listening to the tone of the voice for reasons of self preservation", or would you think she was eavesdropping?

So you were stupid when you were young. You played with fire - you don't say if you ever got burned, but if not, you were extremely lucky. But do not presume that, just because you were stupid enough to get into a stranger's car, or wake up in a stranger's living room (and I make no apology for calling you stupid, because that's exactly what you were), that all young people are like you. I'm not, and I never was. I was at the opposite end of the scale to you. I was overly cautious, especially with strangers and groups of people were to be avoided at all costs. To some extent, I'm still the same. If I see a group of youngsters hanging out, I still prefer to find an alternative route.

However, I have never had to stop to listen to a group talking to assess their tone of voice.



rona said:


> I was a woman alone in an isolated place with an unknown but obviously young group of people being rather loud on the other side of a hedge. I was trying to assess the risk to my safety. if they were drunk etc.
> I'd do the same with visual and have sometimes had my phone ready and my finger ready to make a call. That's been with lone men usually.
> 
> If it had been a family group or even a quieter older group then I probably wouldn't have given it a thought.
> ...


Rona, I'm not judging you. I wasn't there, I don't know what was going on. All I'm saying is if that had have been me, as soon as I heard a group of youngsters talking with raised voices, I would have altered cause so as not to come into their view. I wouldn't have needed to listen to them for long enough to realise they were speaking in a foreign tongue.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> However, I have never had to stop to listen to a group talking to assess their tone of voice.
> 
> Rona, I'm not judging you. I wasn't there, I don't know what was going on. All I'm saying is if that had have been me, as soon as I heard a group of youngsters talking with raised voices, I would have altered cause so as not to come into their view. I wouldn't have needed to listen to them for long enough to realise they were speaking in a foreign tongue.


I don't want to change my route if there is no good reason. It's like coming across a field of cows. I'll stand and assess them for a while before I decide how much of a risk they might pose 

I don't like to prejudge and have had some delightful encounters with noisy, raucous youngsters. I don't like the stereotyping that seems to go on both sides of the age divide and do all I can to dispel it in my own little way.

When I first spoke to the other group I met, one of them didn't pick up on what I'd said and instantly became guarded and slightly aggressive in reply.
Reactions are usually to do with past experiences. Either ones own or to someone close.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

By the way......I did take the route that took me into their view, I just hurried that bit and looked back a couple of times. They were too busy in whatever they were doing to even see me speed past 

I stopped, for probably 30 seconds, assessed and continued on my way 

They didn't seem drunk and although loud and using a rather gruff tone there didn't seem to be any anger involved.

Had they spoken English I could have done a much better assessment in my 30 second eavesdrop, or maybe I wouldn't have had to stop because then the assessment could have been achieved on the move.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

suewhite said:


> If I was out in the countryside I would feel uncomfortable if they were talking in a language I did'nt understand but if they were talking and I understood then I would know if I needed to make a quick exit.Most of the folk that work for me speak Polish and a bit of English but we seem to muddle along OK.


Pull the other one Sue, bet you would have yelled through hedge "oi what yer talking about"


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language


So tourists are not allowed to visit England unless they can speak English and will not converse in their own tongue with their partner and children???

Have you ever been on holiday in, say, Holland, Italy, Spain or Portugal?
If so, did you speak the lingo, and did you converse in the native tongue of the country you were visiting while going shopping with your relatives?

I think it is extremely silly to suppose that everyone who happens to be in your country is making a living there, and should have learned the language before entering the country. And even if they do live there, they may not be able to speak the language well enough yet.

I do, however, agree I find it very rude if foreigners are talking very loud and obviously making fun of someone or something in their own language, in a shop or restaurant, for instance. But I would also find it rude if I _could_ understand what they were saying.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2014)

Also worth walking a mile in the shoes of those who are wrongly judged and viewed with suspicion and outright fear just because they speak a different language - or hail from London


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Also worth walking a mile in the shoes of those who are wrongly judged and viewed with suspicion and outright fear just because they speak a different language - or hail from London


I wouldnt lend my shoes to anyone!


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2014)

gorgeous said:


> I wouldnt lend my shoes to anyone!


Is it because youre from London that youre too selfish to lend out your shoes?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Also worth walking a mile in the shoes of those who are wrongly judged and viewed with suspicion and outright fear just because they speak a different language - or hail from London


I work in London.... Londoners are pretty scary sometimes


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

LinznMilly said:


> Yes, I read the first post, and if Rona had have said that she heard raised young voices and decided, in self preservation, to choose a path that would avoid her being seen, I would have completely understood and wouldn't be questioning it. What I'm having trouble seeing, is that she stopped to _listen_.
> 
> And I notice you haven't answered my question: If you caught Rona (or another woman), listening to a group of people who obviously didn't know she was there, what would be your kneejerk reaction? What would be the first thought that entered your head? Would you immediately think "She's listening to the tone of the voice for reasons of self preservation", or would you think she was eavesdropping?
> 
> ...


Your reply to _me_ makes no sense so I have nothing to say toward it.

So you would have done something different. so what? Does that make you right and Rona (and myself) wrong? No it does not. It makes us different.

What's with all the judging? Learn tolerance why don't you, not everyone thinks like you.

To answer your question, if I saw someone standing quietly by herself I would smile and keep walking and think nothing of it. Or ask her if she needed help. I don't judge other people's actions. As long as there is no harm going on, why should I care?

Why should you?

<edit> Oh and if I'd asked her if she was okay and she told me what she was doing I would have thought she had good sense. In fact I would have stopped to listen too, since I was going the same way. Perhaps we would have decided to walk along together, there being a feeling of safety in numbers.

This obsession with Rona's so called "eavesdropping" is bordering on the ridiculous now. LOL.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm totally bemused at the way this thread has gone :blink: From the OP taking a perfectly reasonable course of action at the beginning of thread to the completely random character assassination of 8 million people :confused1:

(This coming from the perspective of a country born person living in London for over 30 years in a mixed race (& language) relationship in multi-cultural neighbourhood!)


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Pull the other one Sue, bet you would have yelled through hedge "oi what yer talking about"


True! maybe because I am a Londoner.:thumbup1:


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Your reply to _me_ makes no sense so I have nothing to say toward it.
> 
> So you would have done something different. so what? Does that make you right and Rona (and myself) wrong? No it does not. It makes us different.
> 
> ...


No, it doesn't make me right and you wrong, but equally it doesn't make YOU right and ME wrong. You willingly put yourself in open danger, you admit as much on this forum, and you then take offence because someone openly calls you stupid. What did you expect? "Ah, well, you were young, so that's OK then"? Hand-holding?

I've openly said to Rona that I wasn't judging her, simply that I was struggling to understand why she had to stop to listen, when IMO she could easily have gauged from the tone of voice whether or not she was in any danger.

I can and do tolerate others and their differences of actions and opinions, but you don't seem to accept that I also have a difference of opinion. But of course, I'M the intolerant one! I'M the one missing the point - and so is anyone who agrees with me.

You said yourself, it's difference of opinion. It doesn't make you right and me wrong, any more than it makes ME right and YOU wrong.

You're on Ignore, Lorilu.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

:thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

LinznMilly said:


> No, it doesn't make me right and you wrong, but equally it doesn't make YOU right and ME wrong. You willingly put yourself in open danger, you admit as much on this forum, and you then take offence because someone openly calls you stupid. What did you expect? "Ah, well, you were young, so that's OK then"? Hand-holding?
> 
> *I've openly said to Rona that I wasn't judging her, simply that I was struggling to understand why she had to stop to listen, when IMO she could easily have gauged from the tone of voice whether or not she was in any danger. *
> 
> ...


I didn't take offense at your comments and name calling to me. Your words had no meaning to me at all. But your habit of pointing fingers and name calling shows that you aren't tolerant of differences.

She stopped to listen to gauge the tone of voice. As has been explained. LOL!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

suewhite said:


> True! maybe because I am a Londoner.:thumbup1:


oooh, you know the Big Horse song!?
'maayby its big horse Im a lahndahna...
that I luv lahndahn taaaaaaan!'
:lol:


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I hate Bucknall in Stoke-on-Trent and everyone in it. Everyone in it is stupid, immature and dishonest.

How do I know?

Well, I knew someone from there who was stupid, immature and dishonest. I've got a big pot of tar here and a very big brush to go with it.


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

suewhite said:


> True! maybe because I am a Londoner.:thumbup1:


Because you love London Town!! 

C'mon gang, le's have a righ' owd knees up aroun' e owd joanna!

Altogether now!!!

Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:Singing:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I have had a fair amount to do with Romanians and the French. While listening to them talk in there own tongue what strikes you is the tone. You can only judge a tone from what you are used to.
The Romanians I found had very soft tone to their voices and even when getting wound up over something, rarely sounded angry, whereas nearly all the French people I know (mainly Parisians), they sounds angry all the time when they are just having a chat


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

rona said:


> Walk a mile dear Smokey.......walk a mile


If the home lets you out


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MissShelley said:


> Because you love London Town!!
> 
> C'mon gang, le's have a righ' owd knees up aroun' e owd joanna!
> 
> ...


[youtube_browser]DUb_IGT_qYo[/youtube_browser]


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

rona said:


> I have had a fair amount to do with Romanians and the French. While listening to them talk in there own tongue what strikes you is the tone. You can only judge a tone from what you are used to.
> The Romanians I found had very soft tone to their voices and even when getting wound up over something, rarely sounded angry, whereas nearly all the French people I know (mainly Parisians), they sounds angry all the time when they are just having a chat


Reminds me of this - scene at 12:40 (I could only find the whole episode):

The Simpsons Season 9 Episode 24 â Lost Our Lisa | Seek Cartoon


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

rona said:


> [youtube_browser]DUb_IGT_qYo[/youtube_browser]


Lovely Rona I have been singing full throttle dogs even started howling.:thumbup1:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

oliviarussian said:


> *I'm totally bemused at the way this thread has gone :blink:* From the OP taking a perfectly reasonable course of action at the beginning of thread to the completely random character assassination of 8 million people :confused1:
> 
> (This coming from the perspective of a country born person living in London for over 30 years in a mixed race (& language) relationship in multi-cultural neighbourhood!)


Good innit? :laugh:


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

rona said:


> Good innit? :laugh:


Yeh!! and we havent even done "Knee's up muvver Brown yet"


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

suewhite said:


> Yeh!! and we havent even done "Knee's up muvver Brown yet"


Here you go.................
[youtube_browser]UdRxWZ5-mvg[/youtube_browser]


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

LinznMilly said:


> Yes, I read the first post, and if Rona had have said that she heard raised young voices and decided, in self preservation, to choose a path that would avoid her being seen, I would have completely understood and wouldn't be questioning it. What I'm having trouble seeing, is that she stopped to _listen_.
> 
> And I notice you haven't answered my question: If you caught Rona (or another woman), listening to a group of people who obviously didn't know she was there, what would be your kneejerk reaction? What would be the first thought that entered your head? Would you immediately think "She's listening to the tone of the voice for reasons of self preservation", or would you think she was eavesdropping?
> 
> ...


Bit harsh don't you think? I'd say more the naivety of youth, combined with that belief of being invincible. Life is a learning curve.

As for Rona? Well, I'm assuming she cocked an ear, rather than craned through the fence to hear what was going on. it seems to have got wildly exaggerated.



grumpy goby said:


> I work in London.... *Londoners are pretty scary sometimes *


Oh but not all of us. The same has to go in any city doesn't it?



LinznMilly said:


> No, it doesn't make me right and you wrong, but equally it doesn't make YOU right and ME wrong. You willingly put yourself in open danger, you admit as much on this forum, and you then take offence because someone openly calls you stupid. What did you expect? "Ah, well, you were young, so that's OK then"? Hand-holding?
> 
> I've openly said to Rona that I wasn't judging her, simply that I was struggling to understand why she had to stop to listen, when IMO she could easily have gauged from the tone of voice whether or not she was in any danger.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing there is a history here then?...................... as this seems all out of proportion.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I wouldn't say its the people in a town/city that cause the problem but more like the noise and hustle and bustle.

I prefer open fields and sandy beaches and mountains rising up in the background to a city any day. Best thing about having to go into the city for any reason is the journey back to familiar and more pleasing surroundings...

On the other hand, some people find the slow pace drowning and can't wait to get back to civilization...each to their own.

I was in upstate New York for a week...absolutely beautiful, driving down into New York City was an eye opener, The Husdon river is so big, the civilsiation beyond so fast.

Nobody smiled in NYC......just like they don't in London or Manchester.

Stayed in a hotel in NYC....read a message in the bathroom that said about not having to wash towels etc more than is necessary so if not used, please leave them hung up...save the planet and all that...then took a look out of the bedroom window and laughed at the millions of lights on all over the city....that was the irony.

Some strange people walking about in NYC...weird and wacky and some normal.A scantily dressed cowboy in Times square doing a weird dance in the afternoon.

So many different languages, dialects and different coloured and diiferently dressed people. Harlem on a bus ride on Sunday morning and women all dressed in the brightest outfits going to church....amazing.

Interesting trip....loved going home.


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

This is the first time I've ventured out of cat chat since I joined the site... delightful!

I don't think the OP is racist, just a sensible risk assessment of her surroundings.

Some of the following comments are racist and I particularly take (a tongue in cheek (because let's face it, a person with those opinions can't be taken seriously)) offence to the comments about Londeners. I am Londoner who no longer lives in London so unless I am floating free in the atmosphere, I am very well aware the world doesn't end at Watford.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Aubrie30 said:


> This is the first time I've ventured out of cat chat since I joined the site... delightful!
> 
> *Quick, go back in! It's not safe out here!* :lol:
> 
> ...


Yes, Rona's original thread was somewhat derailed by the whole London thing and I was one of those involved.

I apologise, Rona.


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> Yes, Rona's original thread was somewhat derailed by the whole London thing and I was one of those involved.
> 
> I apologise, Rona.


Don't worry, what with all the talk of supermarkets and France, it was off track way before London was brought into it.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Contact Us

look a french supermarket in London. perhaps we should areange a pf day out!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> Yes, Rona's original thread was somewhat derailed by the whole London thing and I was one of those involved.
> 
> I apologise, Rona.


No problem. I'm not precious about my threads


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

grumpy goby said:


> I work in London.... Londoners are pretty scary sometimes


the people seem fine to me, the place is a bit of a dump though


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Aubrie30 said:


> I am very well aware the world doesn't end at Watford.


no, it starts after watford


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

I know one thing for sure, the world doesn't start or end in Wiltshire. Good for cats though because there's absolutely nothing here!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Aubrie30 said:


> I know one thing for sure, the world doesn't start or end in Wiltshire. Good for cats though because there's absolutely nothing here!


Wiltshire is an amazing county. You have such ancient history and a wonder of the world.
One of the best canals goes through.
An ancient forest full to the brim with ancient trees
One or two very picturesque rivers
etc etc


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

You weren't being racist IMO,just cautious and that's always a good thing


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

rona said:


> Wiltshire is an amazing county. You have such ancient history and a wonder of the world.
> One of the best canals goes through.
> An ancient forest full to the brim with ancient trees
> One or two very picturesque rivers
> etc etc


That's true. But I live on an army base which isn't very picturesque! :lol:


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> the people seem fine to me, the place is a bit of a dump though


A dump how can you say that, It is a beautiful city. I love just wondering around. The architecture, the Parks.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...v&sa=X&ei=dfgNVM37EPHy7AbLkYDQBg&ved=0CC0QsAQ


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

northnsouth said:


> A dump how can you say that, It is a beautiful city. I love just wondering around. The architecture, the Parks.
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...v&sa=X&ei=dfgNVM37EPHy7AbLkYDQBg&ved=0CC0QsAQ


It is a beautiful city. Of course it's got an ugly backside - all cities do and so do most towns. But the central parts are lovely and there is such a history there.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> A dump how can you say that, It is a beautiful city. I love just wondering around. The architecture, the Parks.
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...v&sa=X&ei=dfgNVM37EPHy7AbLkYDQBg&ved=0CC0QsAQ





Shoshannah said:


> It is a beautiful city. Of course it's got an ugly backside - all cities do and so do most towns. But the central parts are lovely and there is such a history there.


I've been there 3 times in my life.
Once as a child to the natural history museum, madam tussauds etc.
The second time as a teenager with school and almost got myself bundled into a doorway by some blokes 
On a protest march in my 40s

My over riding impression was the stench. I came away with a sore throat and stinging eyes


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## stargren (Jul 24, 2014)

for the people who have been bitching about me and putting words in my mouth !

A- i do not dis like foreigners being in the uk!

B-i am not racist ! 

C- my comment was aimed at the local people by me who i know have been in this country a while now and not bothered to learn the language and i know this for a fact !

D- i also stated not all foreigners are like this and i also stated i know people do come to England for holidays !

so take a chill pill will y'all :thumbup1:


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

stargren said:


> for the people who have been bitching about me and putting words in my mouth !
> 
> A- i do not dis like foreigners being in the uk!
> 
> ...


A - Do you want brownie points for this? You're not _supposed_ to care, that's the point.

B - The comment you made _was_ racist though, so can you really blame people for putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 4?

C. How do you know this for a fact? Maybe they do know English as a second language but choose not to speak it to each other? And even if they don't know English perfectly, I'm sure they know enough to get them through each day living here. And even if they don't, why do you care? What business is it of yours?

D - Ohhh that's all right then! Has it ever occurred to you that they might not be foreigners? They might be second, third or fourth generation and be bilingual?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

rona said:


> I've been there 3 times in my life.
> Once as a child to the natural history museum, madam tussauds etc.
> The second time as a teenager with school and almost got myself bundled into a doorway by some blokes
> On a protest march in my 40s
> ...


Yeah, one does have to wash their hair more often in the city - but I doubt that's exclusive to London.

I lived in central London for 2 years when I was younger. Nothing bad ever happened to me - guess I was lucky. I used to get loads of people offering me drugs in the street, but if I just ignored them and walked past they never tried to pursue it.

That said - when I went on a school trip to France we stopped in a very pretty small market town and I had two French guys offering me drugs, so there you go!


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## stargren (Jul 24, 2014)

B - The comment you made _was_ racist though, so can you really blame people for putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 4?

you show me a comment i made where i was being racist !


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

I'm not entirely sure why you need it pointed out again, enough people have already quoted you and responded.



stargren said:


> if say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language





stargren said:


> yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!
> 
> seems as in our nursery has both kids and parents who can not speak english but yet they expect to mix with english kids and adults not knowing what they are going on about .


I'm not going to argue with you, I'm not naive enough to think I can change your mind about any of it. But I find it hard to 'take a chill pill' when reading comments like that.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

stargren said:


> B-i am not racist !


I did not call you racist, the comment that you made was. Well, more xenophobic really 

No one needed to put words in your mouth, you did that all by yourself :frown2:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> It is a beautiful city. Of course it's got an ugly backside - all cities do and so do most towns. But the central parts are lovely and there is such a history there.


nah, its a dump :biggrin:


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

No , it is not racist...natural instinct..
I lived in countries where I did not understand much (Hull, south of Spain) and I was vary of people...
Till I learnt and felt more confident and able to judge what was going on..


I am still vary of some ethnic group X who mainly gather round our frontier and smuggle..though I am not afraid of Spanish gitanos...because I understand them...


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

rona said:


> My over riding impression was the stench. I came away with a sore throat and stinging eyes


me too

i always feel dirty and grubby


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Tails and Trails said:


> nah, its a dump :biggrin:


Tell me... have you ever been to Stoke on Trent? :lol:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> Tell me... have you ever been to Stoke on Trent? :lol:


if its another concrete urban sprawl, i may be glad to give it a miss as well?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Tails and Trails said:


> if its another concrete urban sprawl, i may be glad to give it a miss as well?


Yeah - believe me, it's worse than London. I find the people lovely, but the city itself is most uninspiring.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> Yeah - believe me, it's worse than London. I find the people lovely, but the city itself is most uninspiring.


bradford and newcastle are pretty grim too

edinburgh is quite nice though


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Tails and Trails said:


> bradford and newcastle are pretty grim too
> 
> edinburgh is quite nice though


York is the city for me.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

London is a fantastic place to live. I worked for social services there and used to be out and about around Peckham and Camberwell doing home visits. Never had any problems. Some of the huge estates can be intimidating with big groups of youngsters hanging about but they never bothered us. I really miss the parks, the history, the theatres and even the shops (given that I hate shopping). 

Also love Wiltshire, went to school there from 12 - 16 years, Salisbury Cathedral is one of my favourite places and some of the villages are so pretty especially those on the edge of the New Forest. 

I guess we all feel anxious or scared sometimes, what one person takes in their stride and is fine with might freak out another so I don't think we should judge someone whether on their fears, their nationality, their language or indeed their literacy :thumbup1:


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> Yeah, one does have to wash their hair more often in the city - but I doubt that's exclusive to London.
> 
> I lived in central London for 2 years when I was younger. Nothing bad ever happened to me - guess I was lucky. I used to get loads of people offering me drugs in the street, but if I just ignored them and walked past they never tried to pursue it.
> 
> That said - when I went on a school trip to France we stopped in a very pretty small market town and I had two French guys offering me drugs, so there you go!


Blimey Shosh I wouldn't say you look as though you partake so why are you targetted by all these drug pushers 



Shoshannah said:


> Tell me... have you ever been to Stoke on Trent? :lol:


Cheeky mare suppose its a plus you mustn't have been offered mind altering substances or you would have said!

I will admit the towns are a bit rubbish and there are some skanky parts but 5 minutes in the car and you are in countryside. Have you had a wander round Biddulph Grange Gardens and the country park on your door step


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

London is a wonderful place. I love all the different parts, they're all so individual. The mix of cultures and different ways of life makes it interesting and vibrant. The architecture and history is just fascinating.

Yes there are bad parts, but that is true of every town and city across the country. Yes it is noisy and busy and there's pollution but it's a small price to pay for living in such a great place.

Wiltshire is lovely too... for a holiday. Salisbury is beautiful and the cathedral is magical. But living here is different, the population is too big for the facilities. They keep building housing without expanding the city and it will only get worse once SPTA nearly doubles in size next year.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I guess we all feel anxious or scared sometimes, what one person takes in their stride and is fine with might freak out another so I don't think we should judge someone whether on their fears, their nationality, their language or *indeed their literacy* :thumbup1:


Oh Im Judgy McJudgerson on literacy. Yep, Im a grammar nazi and literacy snob. Especially in certain contexts. If youre wanting me to buy your products or use your services, you best know how to formulate a correct sentence and know the difference between there, theyre, and their.

If you try to tell me your pure bread dog has been spade Im going to judge you, and it wont be pretty.

And if you start bitching about the damned foreigners not bothering to learn English, you best be bitching in correct English. (Though Ill still judge, I judge harsher for the illiterate rantings than the literate ones.)


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Oh Im Judgy McJudgerson on literacy. Yep, Im a grammar nazi and literacy snob. Especially in certain contexts. If youre wanting me to buy your products or use your services, you best know how to formulate a correct sentence and know the difference between there, theyre, and their.
> 
> *If you try to tell me your pure bread dog has been spade* Im going to judge you, and it wont be pretty.
> 
> And if you start bitching about the damned foreigners not bothering to learn English, you best be bitching in correct English. (Though Ill still judge, I judge harsher for the illiterate rantings than the literate ones.)


Ahem, it's "spaded" :yesnod:. 
So igrant!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> Ahem, it's "spaded" :yesnod:.
> So igrant!


I thought it was spayed in Britain 

You dig with a Spade


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> A dump how can you say that, It is a beautiful city. I love just wondering around. The architecture, the Parks.
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...v&sa=X&ei=dfgNVM37EPHy7AbLkYDQBg&ved=0CC0QsAQ


Yup, it's got a very pretty Eye 

I think, perhaps, this link might be better evidence for your argument:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...YDQBg&ved=0CC0QsAQ#tbm=isch&q=London&imgdii=_

Stargren, you've been repeatedly quoted as to your racist comments on this thread - I should know, I'm one of them. However [sigh] I present Exhibits A,B and C ... Again :



stargren said:


> if *say i am in a super market and i hear it i find it rude because its like you move to our country and you don't learn our language *





stargren said:


> *yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!
> 
> seems as in our nursery has both kids and parents who can not speak english but yet they expect to mix with english kids and adults not knowing what they are going on about *.





stargren said:


> MissShelley said:
> 
> 
> > Forgive me, but how would you know the difference between someone here as a tourist or someone living over here? unless you know every single person speaking in a foreign language that you hear. Do you hear all foreign accents and assume? or just the ones who you know to be citizens. Can't see how it matters to be honest.
> ...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> A dump how can you say that, It is a beautiful city. I love just wondering around. The architecture, the Parks.
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...v&sa=X&ei=dfgNVM37EPHy7AbLkYDQBg&ved=0CC0QsAQ





LinznMilly said:


> Yup, it's got a very pretty Eye
> 
> I think, perhaps, this link might be better evidence for your argument:
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...YDQBg&ved=0CC0QsAQ#tbm=isch&q=London&imgdii=_


I'm so pleased some of you think the place is beautiful, interesting and fun. 
Can't see it myself!! The more that do the happier I am 
Keeps you away from what I find beautiful :001_tt2:


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> York is the city for me.


I love York....


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rona said:


> I'm so pleased some of you think the place is beautiful, interesting and fun.
> Can't see it myself!! The more that do the happier I am
> Keeps you away from what I find beautiful :001_tt2:


Never been to London in my life  :001_tt2: 

Well ... I have once ... passing through to get to our connection bus which would take us to South Hampton for the Hovercraft to Isle of Wight. 

Just letting my Patriotic side out for a bit.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I think (and I could be completely wrong) but when it comes down to it, the best way to gauge if it's racist or not is simply this: Ask yourself, would you say/do/behave the same thing to people of your own race/nationality - and be honest with yourself about the answer.

If you would say/do exactly the same with your own race/nationality/religion, then it's unlikely to be racist. If not, chances are, it probably is.

Like I said, I'm prepared to be corrected, but that's how I would judge my actions or comments.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ouesi said:


> about the damned foreigners not bothering to learn English,


well, Im going to bitch! Had one the other day shouting and carrying on in foreign speak..no clue what they were saying and being elderly I imagine that they probably made no effort to learn but instead only spoke to and through their families.
Unfortunately families dont stay in the hospital with them so when they are shouting at me I have no idea if they are in pain, hungry, desperate for the toilet or about to collapse and die! By the time Ive found an interpreter they could be seriously ill. Fair enough if you are a tourist, I wouldnt expect you to know the language but if you are living here then you should try and learn basic english. Emergencies happen after all and you wont get any help if nobody knows what you are saying.
Even in day to day life. How do you report a gas leak or a crime if nobody can understand you??


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Perhaps this patient has tried to learn, but has found it difficult.

Not everyone is capable of learning a new language, and English is more difficult than most.

Perhaps this patient _has_ learned some basics, but in her/his extremity is unable to express her/his needs in English.

There are just too many "perhaps" scenarios to list. That's why tolerance is so important. So I hope that, even as you rant here, when you are in those situations you are sympathetic and compassionate and try to help. I'm sure you are


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

rona said:


> I thought it was spayed in Britain
> 
> You dig with a Spade


Course you don't, you dig with a shovel


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

DoodlesRule said:


> Course you don't, you dig with a shovel


i confused an irishman once.
i handed him a bunch of shovels and told him to take his pick


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Course you don't, you dig with a shovel


Blimey, if you are trying to dig with a shovel it's blooming hard work.

A shovel is like a scoop, it picks things up, hence *snow shovel & coal shovel,*


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

rona said:


> Blimey, if you are trying to dig with a shovel it's blooming hard work.
> 
> A shovel is like a scoop, it picks things up, hence *snow shovel & coal shovel,*


Rona's right Doodles its a spade,this thread is so good we are certainly covering alot of subjects.:001_tt1::001_tt1:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

suewhite said:


> Rona's right Doodles its a spade,this thread is so good we are certainly covering alot of subjects.:001_tt1::001_tt1:


nonsense, rona knows shovel about spades


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> nonsense, rona knows shovel about spades


:yikes::yikes:she does she passed her exam in shovels and spadesSinging:


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> well, Im going to bitch! Had one the other day shouting and carrying on in foreign speak..no clue what they were saying and being elderly I imagine that they probably made no effort to learn but instead only spoke to and through their families.


Nice ageist attack added in there  Do you assume all elderly people make no effort to learn new things, or just foreign ones?
Listen, once you go through puberty, the brain changes to where aquiring a new language is much more difficult. As many things it becomes even more difficult with age. 
Have you ever tried to aquire fluency in a foreign language? It's not easy, and even if you are profficient in that language, in times of stress or upset, it is not at all uncommon to revert back to one's native language. 
You know that saying about being so upset you couldn't think straight? It works that way with language too, sometimes it's just too much to try to find the words in that other language.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

suewhite said:


> :yikes::yikes:she does she passed her exam in shovels and spadesSinging:


I did too


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rona said:


> I did too


17+ years on the end of a sh*t shovel :lol:


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Oh Im Judgy McJudgerson on literacy. Yep, Im a grammar nazi and literacy snob. Especially in certain contexts. If youre wanting me to buy your products or use your services, you best know how to formulate a correct sentence and know the difference between there, theyre, and their.
> 
> If you try to tell me your pure bread dog has been spade Im going to judge you, and it wont be pretty.
> 
> And if you start bitching about the damned foreigners not bothering to learn English, you best be bitching in correct English. (Though Ill still judge, I judge harsher for the illiterate rantings than the literate ones.)


See I don't get that. If we are to be tolerant of people then we should be tolerant full stop. Not everyone has had the benefit of a good education and some may have particular difficulties that make literacy a problem. Doesn't mean they are bad people. Not everyone can pick up spelling and grammar and be as eloquent as others


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> See I don't get that. If we are to be tolerant of people then we should be tolerant full stop. Not everyone has had the benefit of a good education and some may have particular difficulties that make literacy a problem. Doesn't mean they are bad people. Not everyone can pick up spelling and grammar and be as eloquent as others


Not everyone has had the chance to either...................or they've been too busy earning a crust


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

lorilu said:


> Perhaps this patient has tried to learn, but has found it difficult.
> 
> Not everyone is capable of learning a new language, and English is more difficult than most.
> 
> ...


This has happened several times over the years and of course I dont think people should be fluent in a strange language (Im in awe of anybody who is as I know Im not clever enough to be!) but I dont understand why people cant at least try to help you out with a couple of phrases that they know they will need. heck...if they want to teach me the <insert language> for something they might need then I will happily try and use it.
Ironically last night the person thought that shouting at me very loudly in their language would make me understand!LOL (dont worry though....after a conflab with about 5 staff, 3 patients and several visitors we finally understand what was going on and the patient didnt hold my denseness againest me!:lol



ouesi said:


> Nice ageist attack added in there  Do you assume all elderly people make no effort to learn new things, or just foreign ones?


sorry, Im not assuming anything just going through my own personal experience. 2 things I can tell for sure though....
1. this has only ever happened with elderly people or foreign tourists
2. everybody can understand the phrase 'cup of tea'!
Its not right or wrong...just what Ive found over the years.


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> See I don't get that. If we are to be tolerant of people then we should be tolerant full stop. Not everyone has had the benefit of a good education and some may have particular difficulties that make literacy a problem. Doesn't mean they are bad people. Not everyone can pick up spelling and grammar and be as eloquent as others


This is true and while I agree generally, it kind of misses the point for this specific situation.

It's a pot, kettle thing. So if person X is going to berate and vilify person Y for not being able to speak the language correctly, they should be in full grasp of the language themselves. Otherwise, they just come across as hypocritical.

And people pointing put the irony of the aforementioned situation usually have no problem with either person not being able to use English correctly, they are just trying to alert person X to the ridiculousness of their argument.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> See I don't get that. If we are to be tolerant of people then we should be tolerant full stop. Not everyone has had the benefit of a good education and some may have particular difficulties that make literacy a problem. Doesn't mean they are bad people. Not everyone can pick up spelling and grammar and be as eloquent as others


But it's OK for a certain member on here to show intolerance who come here and are unable to speak fluent English, whilst at the same time, being unable to spell words such as "right" correctly?



Aubrie30 said:


> This is true and while I agree generally, it kind of misses the point for this specific situation.
> 
> It's a pot, kettle thing. So if person X is going to berate and vilify person Y for not being able to speak the language correctly, they should be in full grasp of the language themselves. Otherwise, they just come across as hypocritical.
> 
> And people pointing put the irony of the aforementioned situation usually have no problem with either person not being able to use English correctly, they are just trying to alert person X *to the ridiculousness of their argument*.


Not to mention sheer the hypocrisy of that member.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Aubrie30 said:


> This is true and while I agree generally, it kind of misses the point for this specific situation.
> 
> It's a pot, kettle thing. So if person X is going to berate and vilify person Y for not being able to speak the language correctly, they should be in full grasp of the language themselves. Otherwise, they just come across as hypocritical.
> 
> And people pointing put the irony of the aforementioned situation usually have no problem with either person not being able to use English correctly, they are just trying to alert person X to the ridiculousness of their argument.


Yes I understood that. So taking that argument on board does that mean that we can't comment on anything that we are not excellent at ourselves? I'm a bit of an armchair football pundit at times and lets not even get on to Strictly and the dancers  Can't do either myself but I think I'm still entitled to express an opinion on them. I just think its a tad insensitive to berate people for their lack of literacy - when you say they should be in full grasp of the language themselves how do we know they don't have special educational needs or problems?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> But it's OK for a certain member on here to show intolerance who come here and are unable to speak fluent English, whilst at the same time, being unable to spell words such as "right" correctly?
> 
> Not to mention sheer the hypocrisy of that member.


I don't believe I said it was OK for anyone to show intolerance to anyone else and think if you read back you will find I challenged those views myself. However two wrongs don't make a right and I dislike the lacking of tolerance and understanding shown in a thread which is meant to be all about tolerance and understanding. Its fine to challenge the views but not the literacy IMO


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I understood that. So taking that argument on board does that mean that we can't comment on anything that we are not excellent at ourselves? I'm a bit of an armchair football pundit at times and lets not even get on to Strictly and the dancers  Can't do either myself but I think I'm still entitled to express an opinion on them. I just think its a tad insensitive to berate people for their lack of literacy - when you say they should be in full grasp of the language themselves how do we know they don't have special educational needs or problems?


Of course we can comment on it. 'It must be really hard for them living here and not being able to speak English very well' is completely different from 'if they can't be bothered to learn English they should sod off home' type comments.
By passing comment on a football match or the lack of skill exhibited by this years Strictly contestants is not a crime, racism and inciting racial hatred is.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Aubrie30 said:


> Of course we can comment on it. 'It must be really hard for them living here and not being able to speak English very well' is completely different from 'if they can't be bothered to learn English they should sod off home' type comments.
> By passing comment on a football match or the lack of skill exhibited by this years Strictly contestants is not a crime, racism and inciting racial hatred is.


Whilst I don't agree with the "views" expressed earlier in the thread I do not believe they were inciting racial hatred - if anyone else believes they were then they should have reported them and I have no doubt the thread would have been closed and the poster banned. They are not very nice views but sorry IMO picking on educational attaintment isn't very nice either.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Well I think it must be very lonely for folk that can't speak the language of the country they are in and not easy to grasp the older you get,as for spelling again not everyones strong point (mine) but in the great scheme of things not a big deal.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Whilst I don't agree with the "views" expressed earlier in the thread I do not believe they were inciting racial hatred - if anyone else believes they were then they should have reported them and I have no doubt the thread would have been closed and the poster banned. They are not very nice views but sorry IMO picking on educational attaintment isn't very nice either.


I picked up on the spelling mistake.

Usually i dont do this, as i dont care. I dont like grammar nazis, and this is only a casual internet chat forum, so its not important enough to make any effort beyond basic comprehension, its not like a job

I didnt concern myself with considering that member's educational attainment.
I didnt give them such seriousness.

For me, if i were an english nationalist concerning myself with making comments on the internet complaining about foreigners not speaking english, then, obviously, I would proof read my own post for grammar and spelling before pressing send. I would have my credibility to consider at such a time. Otherwise, instantly, I would sabotage my own argument! 
But its a wonder how many times one does read comments from these people regarding poor English skills whilst displaying poor English skills 

This has always been such a mystery to me.
Then I realised that if anyone that was bright, rational, consistent, substantial, and analytical enough to think thru such a post in such a way, wouldnt really be the sort of persone to be expressing knee jerk snap judgements in the first place, would they


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> I picked up on the spelling mistake.
> 
> Usually i dont do this, as i dont care. I dont like grammar nazis, and this is only a casual internet chat forum, so its not important enough to make any effort beyond basic comprehension, its not like a job
> 
> ...


But that is assuming the person is capable of proof reading their own post for grammar and spelling. If they don't know they are making errors they won't know to check and correct or perhaps they do know they are making errors but don't know how to correct them  Of course the other option is they do know they are making errors and fail to see the relevance.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But that is assuming the person is capable of proof reading their own post for grammar and spelling. If they don't know they are making errors they won't know to check and correct or perhaps they do know they are making errors but don't know how to correct them  Of course the other option is they do know they are making errors and fail to see the relevance.


Your last sentence is probably the truth. This is the irony, also.
If they were positioning themselves to be a judge and critic of foreigners and their english language skills, credibility of argument would naturally motivate them to consider the quality of their own english language skills, so even if they think their standard is fine, they would still think to double check with a friend, or with their online grammar and spell checker, to be on the safe side. But as i said, if they were an 'aware' enough type of person to see the relevance/make the connection, and how to think these things out for them-self, they probably wouldnt hold such views in the first place 

Re the rest of your post, quite right too - exactly the same sort of sentiment everyone else communicated to our friend in regards to his views upon folk speaking foreign in the supermarket


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

There's a difference between genuinely not being able to proofread and the gibberish that is text speak and that's what they were doing. They're choosing to mangle the English language then whining about foreigners not speaking it 

English is supposedly the hardest language in the world to learn as a non-native speaker. I can understand that but I do think immigrants should make an effort. I don't expect them to speak English among themselves though


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Slightly worried about a group of youngsters to......................

people who live here should be able to speak English to..................

racism and it's not so definite definitions to......................

all people in London are horrid to....................

the views of London and the opinions of London to................

Spelling nitpicking to.......................

What to dig with to.....................

open your minds on possible scenarios and reasons...................

What next? 

Love meandering :thumbup:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

rona said:


> Love meandering :thumbup:


didnt stan collymore get caught out for that?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> didnt stan collymore get caught out for that?


Dunno...who is he?


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

I couldnt believe my eyes when I got my daily Calvin and Hobbes 
thought this thread was the very perfect home for it 

read and enjoy :tongue_smilie:

Calvin and Hobbes Comic Strip, September 09, 2014 on GoComics.com


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Blimey Shosh I wouldn't say you look as though you partake so why are you targetted by all these drug pushers


I dunno, I got stopped for joyriding once too. I must have a suspicious face. :lol:



> I will admit the towns are a bit rubbish and there are some skanky parts but 5 minutes in the car and you are in countryside. Have you had a wander round Biddulph Grange Gardens and the country park on your door step


Oh God yes, Biddulph Grange is lovely, I'm often down there. Mow Cop, Trentham, lots of nice places. I guess I'm thinking more of Burslem and Tunstall and places like that... I was spoilt, I grew up in a Georgian market town.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> See I don't get that. If we are to be tolerant of people then we should be tolerant full stop. Not everyone has had the benefit of a good education and some may have particular difficulties that make literacy a problem. Doesn't mean they are bad people. Not everyone can pick up spelling and grammar and be as eloquent as others


See, all of those reasons you could use and then some for learning a foreign language. So even more ironic for someone who might have difficulty with spelling, grammar, writing, and language in general, to give someone a hard time for not learning a foreign language!

So yes, if someone rants away in poor English about the damned foreigners not speaking English, I judge. Like I said in my initial post, clearly languages are a difficulty for many of us. 
So really it's not having difficulty with language that I'm judging, it's the total lack of empathy, and the inability to make a connection with another human being. 
Instead of thinking to themselves "hey, that's a struggle for me too, languages are hard aren't they?" you have someone dehumanizing another person for not learning English.

It's not just irony, it's total lack of empathy, and while I joke about being judgy (I'm really not), I DO have a huge issue with those who lack empathy or fail to see how we humans are really all the same - suffering, imperfect beings, trying to muddle this world out as best we can.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

or you could argue that empathy would make you imagine how isolating and scary it must be in a strange country where you cant communicate with anybody and tell them how you feel....
then wonder why they havent at least picked up a few easy and key words and phrases to help them interact.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Ouesi, out of interest, what is your mother tongue? Since you write so eloquently in English, I'm curious.

(Also what does your user name mean?!)


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2014)

That English is not my first language is not exactly accurate  I started speaking English at 4 or 5 years, I literally don't remember learning it. That is a prime age for language acquisition, so it was really easy for me to pick up. I spoke Spanish first.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> See, all of those reasons you could use and then some for learning a foreign language. So even more ironic for someone who might have difficulty with spelling, grammar, writing, and language in general, to give someone a hard time for not learning a foreign language!
> 
> So yes, if someone rants away in poor English about the damned foreigners not speaking English, I judge. Like I said in my initial post, clearly languages are a difficulty for many of us.
> So really it's not having difficulty with language that I'm judging, it's the total lack of empathy, and the inability to make a connection with another human being.
> ...


Yeah I get all of that and I agree with all of that but for me (and this might be largely due to my nursing background) empathy applies across the board. I might not like someone elses opinions and I'm happy to challenge those opinions but I'll never be happy to belittle someone else for their lack of education and/or literacy. Also some people do have a lack of empathy, perhaps they have a personality disorder which may cloud how they look at things.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

rona said:


> I'm so pleased some of you think the place is beautiful, interesting and fun.
> Can't see it myself!! The more that do the happier I am
> Keeps you away from what I find beautiful :001_tt2:


Oh no you don't, as much as I like the city, I prefer the woods, the early morning mist and the smell of the earth when a dog digs it up. The late sun shining through the trees dappling on the path in front . The stillness after a hot summer day when the still dry air and the silence of the forest is suddenly broken as a deer breaks from it's cover and runs ahead of you. The sharp snap of a frozen twig when you step on it. The splinter of ice as you step on a frozen puddle.... shove over Rona


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> or you could argue that empathy would make you imagine how isolating and scary it must be in a strange country where you cant communicate with anybody and tell them how you feel....
> then wonder why they havent at least picked up a few easy and key words and phrases to help them interact.


What if they could speak passable English, and developed Alzheimer's? People who have lived here for years and spoken English for decades have sadly lost the ability to speak English and had to refer to their mother tongue.

One thing's for sure. This thread has increased my resolve to at least try to learn another language.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

There are a group of people here who dont speak the language or at least they try to avoid doing so. 
They have lived here for over 30 years but still talk about their birth land as home and go back every 6 months for dental check up because they explained 'you cant trust forgien dentists'

They stick together in a little cliq have more or less taken over one of the local pubs and constantly run down the country that has been their home for 30 +years saying.. in my country this is better/ that is better / in my country we would do it that way / back home we wouldnt put up with that..

I just wish they would all bu66er off back,, To England where they came from, they give the rest of the English people a bad name.

You have to wonder why on earth they bother to live here if they think England is so wonderful and perfect?


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

dorrit said:


> There are a group of people here *who dont speak the language* or at least they try to avoid doing so.
> They have lived here for over 30 years but still talk about their birth land as home and go back every 6 months for dental check up because *they explained 'you cant trust forgien dentists'*
> 
> They stick together in a little cliq have more or less taken over one of the local pubs and constantly run down the country that has been their home for 30 +years *saying.. in my country this is better/ that is better / in my country we would do it that way / back home we wouldnt put up with that..*
> ...


If they don't speak the language, how do you know this is what they are saying?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Aubrie30 said:


> If they don't speak the language, how do you know this is what they are saying?


Probably because dorrit is fluent, or at least speaks and understands English??


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> Probably because dorrit is fluent, or at least speaks and understands English??


Oh yeah, just realised Dorit is from the Netherlands. Apologies, Dorit


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Aubrie30 said:


> If they don't speak the language, how do you know this is what they are saying?


Because Im British born but moved here to the Netherlands 24 years ago. I speak read and write the languge and have taken my business exams here too.
I realise not everyone has a language talent, my OH still finds it hard and he goes to night school every Tuesday evening to help polish up his Dutch.

The way some of the English here behave is exactly the way that many people complain about foreigners behaving in the UK.. ie not learning the language or customs, expecting everyone to adjust to them, disrespecting the country that is thier guest and comparing everything to home and finding that 'home 'is better..

Then they are surprised/schocked /angered when someone says 'well why dont you go back home' yet this is exactly what is said to many people on a daily basis in the UK..

Lead by example, if Brits expect people to speak English and learn English customs when in the UK then its high time they learned to do the same when abroad..

( I know some do but there is a high number who dont)


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

LinznMilly said:


> What if they could speak passable English, and developed Alzheimer's? People who have lived here for years and spoken English for decades have sadly lost the ability to speak English and had to refer to their mother tongue.


yup, that is hard. Trying to calm down and reason with a patient (who doesnt speak english) with dementia only to have their family come in and tell you that they arent in fact talking any sense at all! I think that is another thing entirely though as if someone is confused then they obviously arent going to be able to communicate.

If I was living in another country I would certainly make the effort to learn some of the language (Id be terrible, but Id try!). I think its very rude to bad mouth another country when you are living there as well. It must be nice to find a group of people who are from the same country as you to talk with but you should always be polite to your host...its just basic manners!


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Aubrie30 said:


> If they don't speak the language, how do you know this is what they are saying?


I would have thought the answer to that is obvious from Dorrit's posts.


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

northnsouth said:


> I would have thought the answer to that is obvious from Dorrit's posts.


Yes, it was my mistake. It was early and I wasn't quite awake, I hadn't realised Dorrit lived in the Netherlands. I did apologise for not reading the post properly!


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## Donut76 (May 15, 2013)

Rona - I wouldn't worry ..either that or i should too hmmmm as i have done exactly the same thing - the only difference was that I stood still for what seemed about 5mins lol ONLY because the only other path i could take was back the way i came & another 40mins walk & they were speaking English & just laughing & joking - I was unsure how many were there & they were (as far as i could tell) all grown men, I eventually carried on & was ok - I was a new dog owner so wasnt used to being out & about by myself in an evening. I also did similar when i had my children with me & it went dark quicker than i was expecting & could again here laughing & loud behaviour in the distance - that time (same place lol) i did almost turn back & it was just that it would have been pitch going back thru the wood.

We had a LOVELY Polish lady at work who spoke quite good English until her husband died  she then slowly started to revert back to Polish  her family couldn't understand her as she had only ever spoke English to them & Polish with her husband at home. When she had fall after fall she got steadily worse until she couldn't/wouldn't speak any English at all. I had a telephone operator in a rather nasty tone say to me (when he had asked to speak to the lady & i explained she only spoke Polish) SO HOW do you talk to her then if she doesnt understand/speak English - give her the phone - I had to hold the phone to the ladies ear while He tried to ask her questions to which my poor lady was just "babbling" in Polish (to her husband we think as we heard his name spoken on a few occasions) - I then took the phone back & had a go at the phone operator & demanded he sent an Ambulance & her family was on the way too. Sadly a LOT of elderly revert back to mother tongue when Ill injured or sick (dying) dementia or not  - Doesn't mean they cant understand US just that we cant understand THEM - which to me even in the UK makes it MY problem not theirs..I have seen the same with young children who can speak perfectly well struggle to make themselves understood when ill


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> Because I find them self centred, arrogant and think the world ends at Watford.


Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa...............

The world DOESN'T end at Watford... That's it, my self-centered, arrogant mind is officially blown!   

For what it's worth, I have worked and lived in and around London all my life, and I think it's a wonderful city. It's fast paced, and as I am getting older (at the ripe old age of 24 ) I have come to realise I appreciate the slow pace of suburbia a lot more, but to tar an entire group of people just because they hail from a city you don't like? I find that "citi-ist" 

I personally don't like Paris, but more as a city. I find it too sprawling. I have also lived in Paris. I don't mind Parisians. But then each person is unique.

And to Rona, no I don't personally think what you did was racist. My grandparents are getting on bless them, and I know that they feel vulnerable when there is a large group of anybody nearby, regardless of what language they talk. So don't feel bad about your actions. If you had said you avoided them purely because they spoke a different language, that may be a little different. But no, I wouldn't say you're racist.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

It's not racist - it's a natural human reaction which by current circumstance will probably become more common - the difference is - most people won't admit to it.



stargren said:


> yeah but still you move to our country it's only rite you speak our language!
> 
> seems as in our nursery has both kids and parents who can not speak english but yet they expect to mix with english kids and adults not knowing what they are going on about .


Whilst in principle I agree with you - the absolute worlds WORST when it comes to moving abroad and not learning their language - it's the British - there are ex-pat British across the globe, and the large majority of them continue to speak English - congregate in English communities and do very little (if anything) to integrate into the local community and cultures. 
-------------------

There are always exceptions to the rule - but typically - British people don't tend to learn multiple languages - they just expect everyone to speak English

If a law was brought in that people not speaking the language had to leave the country - there'd be a lot of suntanned people returning to the UK

===================

Many of our Northern European mainland neighbours speak English and in some countries like Holland, it's not unusual for residents to speak 5/6 different languages


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think its a consequence of living on an island and previously having had an Empire that spanned many countries.
It means that alot of other countries use english as a second language and we dont have any other countries bordering us whose language it would be helpful to learn.
I dont think I could pick a language to learn that would be more helpful then any other TBH!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

swarthy said:


> It's not racist - it's a natural human reaction which by current circumstance will probably become more common - the difference is - most people won't admit to it.
> 
> Whilst in principle I agree with you - the absolute worlds WORST when it comes to moving abroad and not learning their language - it's the British - there are ex-pat British across the globe, and the large majority of them continue to speak English - congregate in English communities and do very little (if anything) to integrate into the local community and cultures.
> -------------------
> ...


I think part of the problem is that so many people in various places do speak such good english that when some people go on holiday or indeed move they don't feel the need to learn the local language. There was an episode of world's strictest parents where they went to Amsterdam and she had them helping out in a day centre for teenagers with autism etc. Most of them spoke better english than the two british teens did :sosp:. And where you have big expat communities like in Spain there's little need in some people's eyes. Just stay with British people, eat British food and imagine you're still there just a bit warmer


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I think part of the problem is that so many people in various places do speak such good english that when some people go on holiday or indeed move they don't feel the need to learn the local language. There was an episode of world's strictest parents where they went to Amsterdam and she had them helping out in a day centre for teenagers with autism etc. Most of them spoke better english than the two british teens did :sosp:. And where you have big expat communities like in Spain there's little need in some people's eyes. Just stay with British people, eat British food and imagine you're still there just a bit warmer


I agree with you - my OH speaks 5 languages - I can understand a reasonable amount of spoken and written German but can no longer speak it save for the absolute basics

English and Spanish are the 2nd and 3rd most spoken languages in the world - so it is easy for us to go almost anywhere and be able to get by

My point really is that as a nation we consistently overlook it yet are quick to criticise others doing exactly what British people are doing across the globe


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