# Margaret Thatcher has died



## suewhite

She had a huge stroke so they are saying on the radio


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## JANICE199

*I for one won't shed any tears.*


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## Waterlily

Oh well...shite happens


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## YorkshireMuppet

omg... it's actually weird to read that!
I have no idea why nobody is saying RIP, then again I know nothing about her.. so i'll say R.I.P


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## Happy Paws2

I won't be shedding any tears for her.


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## SammyJo

who??



....... horrid woman


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## Guest

can't say i'll miss her.


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## MoggyBaby

Just seen this on BBC website.... 

I know many will disagree but she was an amazing woman who was not afraid to stand up and defend the rights of this country against those in Europe. If today's MP's had half of her b*lls, we'd be in a far better position within the EU. Instead, they just wipe their feet on us and treat us like a doormat.

She may have made mistakes - well, she was a human being so it's allowed - but by golly, she was not the she-devil so many try to make her out to be.

RIP Maggie - you were one awesome lady!!


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## harley bear

OMG i feel terrible! But when i read the title this ran through my mind.....


Ding dong the witch is dead!...which old which?....the wicked witch! 

Im now going to sit in a dark room and prey for my soul


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## tincan

Love her or hate her .... She was a force to be reckoned with ... Took no sh1t..... stood by her guns ... and as a woman i admired her for that  RIP Maggie ...


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## Guest

MoggyBaby said:


> I know many will disagree but she was an amazing woman who was not afraid to stand up and defend the rights of this country against those in Europe. If today's MP's had half of her b*lls, we'd be in a far better position within the EU. Instead, they just wipe their feet on us and treat us like a doormat.
> 
> She may have made mistakes - well, she was a human being so it's allowed - but by golly, she was not the she-devil so many try to make her out to be.


agree with this. i couldn't bring myself to actually like her though


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## Mark Walden

MoggyBaby said:


> I know many will disagree but she was an amazing woman who was not afraid to stand up and defend the rights of this country against those in Europe. If today's MP's had half of her b*lls, we'd be in a far better position within the EU. Instead, they just wipe their feet on us and treat us like a doormat.
> 
> She may have made mistakes - well, she was a human being so it's allowed - but by golly, she was not the she-devil so many try to make her out to be.
> 
> RIP Maggie - you were one awesome lady!!


Totally agree, she stood up her herself and her ideas to change the country around in many ways and I respect that, whether you agree with that or not. Not to mention standing up for the Falkland Islands when most said no.


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## MontyMaude

I feel saddened by the loss, plus she was still just a person and will have left behind family who loved and adored her and that has to be respected surely.


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## Waterlily

MontyMaude said:


> I feel saddened by the loss, plus she was still just a person and will have left behind family who loved and adored her and that has to be respected surely.


Thats true.


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## newfiesmum

MoggyBaby said:


> Just seen this on BBC website....
> 
> I know many will disagree but she was an amazing woman who was not afraid to stand up and defend the rights of this country against those in Europe. If today's MP's had half of her b*lls, we'd be in a far better position within the EU. Instead, they just wipe their feet on us and treat us like a doormat.
> 
> She may have made mistakes - well, she was a human being so it's allowed - but by golly, she was not the she-devil so many try to make her out to be.
> 
> RIP Maggie - you were one awesome lady!!


I agree. I liked the way she never gave in, the lady is not for turning. I shall miss her RIP Maggie.


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## suewhite

I hated her when she was in government she lost me my house, marriage and job,but not now she was a old lady of 87 years of age suffering from dementia so I will say.

Rest in Peace Maggie


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## Jenny1966

Such a formidable lady ......


RIP Maggie


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## simplysardonic

I'll admit she had the _cojones_ to stand up for what she believed in (not that I think what she stood for is right) & at least she had a backbone unlike most of the current rabble, at the end of the day she's still a human being with a family who will grieve for her.


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## DoodlesRule

You may not have agreed with her but she had a damn sight more backbone and principles than any of the shower since.

Plus to anyone who hates her and is dancing on her grave - she wasn't hitler and in the end she was an old lady with dementia


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## koekemakranka

The end of an era. RIP Maggie.


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## x PIXIE x

Throughout the 80s I know my dad hated her. His mum was one of the victims of thatcher Britain. I think it's sad that anyone has died, regardless of political opinion. She made Britain great, she fought for what she believed in and showed what a woman could do with hard work and belief.

It's very sad -RIP Lady Thatcher


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## Goblin

I wonder how many women in politics around the world there would be if she didn't push herself forward into house of commons. If nothing else she should be remembered positively for that.

RIP Maggie


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## cheekyscrip

agree with her ..or not..at least she had integrity and principles..some of her decisions were right ..some came at formidable price...
she stood for Falklands..which in turn saved Gibraltar as it seems there was a a plot to take over...

but I wish she was at the helm now...in this crisis...

RIP 
right or wrong she she was a strong leader...and did not swindle petty cash...


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## suzy93074

tincan said:


> Love her or hate her .... She was a force to be reckoned with ... Took no sh1t..... stood by her guns ... and as a woman i admired her for that  RIP Maggie ...


Ditto this - not a huge fan - but she was a woman in a mans world who made it acceptable for women to be taken seriously in this field - and for that I have huge respect

RIP


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## Bisbow

I agree she was a woman to admire, she had guts and did not back down when the going got tough, not like the lot in the house of commons now, both sides

She was one formidable lady, we need more like her

R.I.P Maggie


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## JANICE199

suewhite said:


> I hated her when she was in government she lost me my house, marriage and job,but not now she was a old lady of 87 years of age suffering from dementia so I will say.
> 
> Rest in Peace Maggie


*So many people were in the same boat as you Sue, and for that reason i don't give a damn that she was old frail ect.
*


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## gem88

MoggyBaby said:


> Just seen this on BBC website....
> 
> I know many will disagree but she was an amazing woman who was not afraid to stand up and defend the rights of this country against those in Europe. If today's MP's had half of her b*lls, we'd be in a far better position within the EU. Instead, they just wipe their feet on us and treat us like a doormat.
> 
> She may have made mistakes - well, she was a human being so it's allowed - but by golly, she was not the she-devil so many try to make her out to be.
> 
> RIP Maggie - you were one awesome lady!!


i agree. yes she made mistakes, yes she screwed the country but for a woman to do half of what she did she has to be admired to some extent

i'm too young to know first hand what she did and completely understand why she's despised but as you said, if our MP's now had half the guts/balls/courage she did we wouldnt be in this mess now. or at least not as big a one

*ETA just realised i was 2 when John Major became PM i didnt realise she was PM for that long*


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## Blondey

MoggyBaby said:


> Just seen this on BBC website....
> 
> I know many will disagree but she was an amazing woman who was not afraid to stand up and defend the rights of this country against those in Europe. If today's MP's had half of her b*lls, we'd be in a far better position within the EU. Instead, they just wipe their feet on us and treat us like a doormat.
> 
> She may have made mistakes - well, she was a human being so it's allowed - but by golly, she was not the she-devil so many try to make her out to be.
> 
> RIP Maggie - you were one awesome lady!!


Well said I agree with every word.

Baroness Thatcher was an inspiration to many females in this world. Also there is one thing that sticks in my mind. When she came to power the interest on my mortgage was 17.75%, interest rates in general were running wild, she said she would get it down to single figures but we wouldn't like what would need to be done to achieve that. She did it. She put in place wages freeze but also price freeze. Everyone moaned, but never praised her when it worked.

R.I.P Baroness Thatcher, there are some people who admire you and thank you.


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## LolaBoo

Oh well i wont be shedding no tears over it!


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## JANICE199

Blondey said:


> Well said I agree with every word.
> 
> Baroness Thatcher was an inspiration to many females in this world. Also there is one thing that sticks in my mind. When she came to power the interest on my mortgage was 17.75%, interest rates in general were running wild, she said she would get it down to single figures but we wouldn't like what would need to be done to achieve that. She did it. She put in place wages freeze but also price freeze. Everyone moaned, but never praised her when it worked.
> 
> R.I.P Baroness Thatcher, there are some people who admire you and thank you.


*It was MT that made the interest rates that high..I know because i bought my house under her government. It went from 15. something to 17+% in next to no time.
*


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## tinaK

I might not have liked her, but I admire all she did as a woman is a mans world


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## newfiesmum

gem88 said:


> i agree. yes she made mistakes, yes she screwed the country but for a woman to do half of what she did she has to be admired to some extent
> 
> i'm too young to know first hand what she did and completely understand why she's despised but as you said, if our MP's now had half the guts/balls/courage she did we wouldnt be in this mess now. or at least not as big a one
> 
> *ETA just realised i was 2 when John Major became PM i didnt realise she was PM for that long*


Three terms I seem to remember. For all everyone moaned about her, they still kept voting her back in. The labour party at the time were bordering on communism. In fact during one party conference I watched, they were calling each other "comrade" and people did not want that, no matter how bad they thought she was. Unfortunately Tony Blair turned it into a mini tory party so we don't actually have a labour party at all any more. I don't think we have had one since Harold Wilson.

I remember best that she would not give in to Arthur Scargill who declared that he was going to bring down the government, the same government that the public had voted in, because he didn't like them. Another communist pratt and I was very pleased that Margaret Thatcher did not let him get away with it.


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## WelshOneEmma

JANICE199 said:


> *So many people were in the same boat as you Sue, and for that reason i don't give a damn that she was old frail ect.
> *


let's hope that should the same happen to you people will be a little nicer. we are all still people after all and failure to show compassion is not a very nice trait.



LolaBoo said:


> Oh well i wont be shedding no tears over it!


that's a double negative, so you will be shedding tears then!


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## poohdog

Couldn't give a flying f***


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## Waterlily

*ponders if hitler had of developed dementia and started dribbling, would he get sympathy too.


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## Julesky

I have no opinion save for acknowledging an old lady has died and history and her politics remains in the past...


Facebook has gone bananas up here though- a mixture of people rejoicing and planning citywide celebrations and a few condoning the glee.


Goodness. Awaiting this evening to see if the crowds converge.

Safe to say she was a wee bit disliked.


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## JANICE199

WelshOneEmma said:


> let's hope that should the same happen to you people will be a little nicer. we are all still people after all and failure to show compassion is not a very nice trait.
> 
> that's a double negative, so you will be shedding tears then!


*If it happens it happens, that's life.
MT ruined so many peoples lives, and she didn't give a sh*t..Now those people can say they don't give a sh*t about her going.*


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## suewhite

Julesky said:


> I have no opinion save for acknowledging an old lady has died and history and her politics remains in the past...
> 
> Facebook has gone bananas up here though- a mixture of people rejoicing and planning citywide celebrations and a few condoning the glee.
> 
> Goodness. Awaiting this evening to see if the crowds converge.
> 
> Safe to say she was a wee bit disliked.


Tee shirts are on sale celebrating her death


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## WelshOneEmma

Waterlily said:


> *ponders if hitler had of developed dementia and started dribbling, would he get sympathy too.


you can't really compare the two though can you?

dementia is a horrible illness. you could always argue that should they have dementia when they died they aren't the same person and therefore the hate should not really apply (playing devil's advocate here, although i admired maggie)


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## Jenny1966

JANICE199 said:


> *If it happens it happens, that's life.
> MT ruined so many peoples lives, and she didn't give a sh*t..Now those people can say they don't give a sh*t about her going.*


.... and today's government is doing such a fantastic job. She might of been harsh in everything she did, but at least she fought for what she believed in. I was actually better off back then


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## Julesky

suewhite said:


> Tee shirts are on sale celebrating her death


Yeah, they've been on a countdown here- there's parties being organised across Glasgow- no joke

Give's you an idea at the level of dislike


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## porps

good riddance, i guess we can expect street parties in the next few days to celebrate her demise


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## tincan

Tee shirts are on sale celebrating her death
.....
Omg i think that is going a bit far ...... Curious to see what materialises in the next few days ... disgusting making a buck off the back of a dead person


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## Waterlily

WelshOneEmma said:


> you can't really compare the two though can you?
> 
> dementia is a horrible illness. you could always argue that should they have dementia when they died they aren't the same person and therefore the hate should not really apply (playing devil's advocate here, although i admired maggie)


point was, just because someone becomes frail and old, doesnt mean their sins should be just forgotten about.


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## Bisbow

Jenny1966 said:


> .... and today's government is doing such a fantastic job. She might of been harsh in everything she did, but at least she fought for what she believed in. I was actually better off back then


I was better off under her than labour. I was a single parent and struggling Her 
leadership gave me a better way of life and I thank her for it


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## JANICE199

Jenny1966 said:


> .... and today's government is doing such a fantastic job. She might of been harsh in everything she did, but at least she fought for what she believed in. I was actually better off back then


*She might have fought for what SHE believed in, but people forget, governments are there to represent the people. As for this crowd we have in now, i have always said, Cameron will finish off what MT started.*


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## WelshOneEmma

Waterlily said:


> point was, just because someone becomes frail and old, doesnt mean their sins should be just forgotten about.


I understand the point. Surely the fact that she ended up like that in the end, compared to what she was in her prime, would have been more upsetting for some than her actual death.

and i think t-shirts and street parties to celebrate is pretty disgusting.


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## smiler84

Waterlily said:


> point was, just because someone becomes frail and old, doesnt mean their sins should be just forgotten about.


i agree with that. i still don't think you can compare her with hitler though. even if you disagree with her political decisions they weren't exactly on a par with hitler!


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## JANICE199

tincan said:


> Tee shirts are on sale celebrating her death
> .....
> Omg i think that is going a bit far ...... Curious to see what materialises in the next few days ... disgusting making a buck off the back of a dead person


*They were talking about these t-shirts weeks ago on the radio..one has a picture of MT on it with the logo, " dind dong maggies gone".*


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## LolaBoo

She runied lives, she destroyed familys she brought the country to its knees she im afraid IMO set the ball rolling on how the country is in the state it is in now


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## Jenny1966

Well personally I think the sale of such t-shirts and the talk of street parties 'celebrating' her death are a true reflection on what this country has become 

Yes she upset many people in the 'job' she was doing, but she was also a wife, a mother and a grandmother ..... her real job!!

I would hate to be part of her family and have to read the hate of so many people.

Give them some respect.


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## suewhite

Jenny1966 said:


> Well personally I think the sale of such t-shirts and the talk of street parties 'celebrating' her death are a true reflection on what this country has become
> 
> Yes she upset many people in the 'job' she was doing, but she was also a wife, a mother and a grandmother ..... her real job!!
> 
> I would hate to be part of her family and have to read the hate of so many people.
> 
> Give them some respect.


With you there,to me it will just show peoples ignorance


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## Fleur

I might not of agreed with all of her political views but she will in my mind remain a woman that changed history - the 1st (and so far only) woman to be Prime Minister.
She had the guts to stand up for what she believed in, admit when she was wrong and never be a push over.


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## Mese

She was a human being who must have family who love and miss her 

And whether we agreed with her decisions or not no-one can say she wasnt a strong independant woman who reached the top in her field , which couldnt have been easy given that politics was/is a mans game for the most part

So for those reasons 

RIP Mrs Thatcher


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## porps

if hitler had been female would you lot admire him for being strong and independant and for changing history? So much for equality eh? men are judged on their actions but it doesnt matter what a woman does, so long as she does something it deserves respect and admiration?

Yeah she might have been an evil bitch, but at least she was a strong independant evil bitch and she became a high ranking evil bitch despite this being a man worlds so that makes it somehow a good thing that we should admire!

i dont buy that at all. Female solidarity should have limits.



from my facebook....

"THE WITCH IS DEAD!

FREEPARTY THIS SATURDAY!"

yay


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## harley bear

Looks like they will be going all out for her funeral.


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## Jenny1966

:nonod: :nonod: :nonod: :nonod:


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## poohdog

Have a look at Germany's manufacturing industries and economy...booming.

We haven't got much left thanks to that woman..all her ambitions for the nations wealth were centered on the City and banking...lot of good that's done us.

As for her family on a personal note ...condolences...but it's just another old lady died...there will be thousands of others today,many in abject poverty.Not surrounded with the very best of care and protection.


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## hazel pritchard

R I P ,,Margaret Thatcher
During her days as prime minister my husband was in the forces, she gave them a wage increase that meant for the 1st time they had a living wage, she treated the forces with the respect they deserved , so i respected her , 
Thoughts are with her children who have lost their mother, must be heartbreaking while they are trying to deal with their grief to see splashed all over the press and social network sites people horrific nasty comments about her.


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## tincan

Porps your entitled to your opinion .... 
I admired her as a woman i do not deny that , equally i would admire a man in the same position if he had a spine like Maggie did .... 

The woman is not even cold yet fgs and the sh1te is being flung ...
Street parties , T-Shirts .... honestly i find it distasteful and quite frankly i am not suprised given the mentality of some of this Countries inhabitants  

You cannot compare Maggie to Hitler


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## Mese

porps said:


> if hitler had been female would you lot admire him for being strong and independant and for changing history? So much for equality eh? men are judged on their actions but it doesnt matter what a woman does, so long as she does something it deserves respect and admiration?
> 
> Yeah she might have been an evil bitch, but at least she was a strong independant evil bitch and she became a high ranking evil bitch despite this being a man worlds so that makes it somehow a good thing that we should admire!
> 
> i dont buy that at all. Female solidarity should have limits.
> 
> from my facebook....
> 
> "THE WITCH IS DEAD!
> 
> FREEPARTY THIS SATURDAY!"
> 
> yay


tbh I think its disgusting that Hitler and Mrs Thatcher are being linked 
Im not a fan of hers , I was too young to care or know what was going on back then

But Hitler was an evil man with a vendetta against the Jews which he used his position to carry out .... Mrs Thatcher was a woman who was just trying to do the right thing for her country , whether it was the right thing or not she doesnt deserve to be as vilified as Hitler so rightly is


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## Julesky

tincan said:


> Porps your entitled to your opinion ....
> I admired her as a woman i do not deny that , equally i would admire a man in the same position if he had a spine like Maggie did ....
> 
> The woman is not even cold yet fgs and the sh1te is being flung ...
> Street parties , T-Shirts .... honestly i find it distasteful and quite frankly i am not suprised given the mentality of some of this Countries inhabitants
> 
> You cannot *compare Maggie to Hitler*


Cannot quote original post where this was mentioned so borrowing yours to say ... NOOOOOOOOOO GODWIN'S LAW!!!!!!! NOOOOOOO

(Diefenbaker- wherever you are, I hope you're proud  )

Of course it's distasteful, I agree. There's a lot of simmering anger in this country- in my country alone she is loathed for 'trialling' the poll tax on us Scots.

I know there will be parties, they are all over facebook- at least they're not riots


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## Sacrechat

Blondey said:


> Well said I agree with every word.
> 
> Baroness Thatcher was an inspiration to many females in this world. Also there is one thing that sticks in my mind. When she came to power the interest on my mortgage was 17.75%, interest rates in general were running wild, she said she would get it down to single figures but we wouldn't like what would need to be done to achieve that. She did it. She put in place wages freeze but also price freeze. Everyone moaned, but never praised her when it worked.
> 
> R.I.P Baroness Thatcher, there are some people who admire you and thank you.


It makes you wonder, if she had been a man, would the reaction to her policies have been quite so vehemently expressed.


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## Bisbow

In my opion it was Arther Scargill and his ilk that brought this country to it's knees

T-shirts, parties and dancing on her grave just shows how low some people have got. It is disgusting and chidish beyond words


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## Julesky

Sacremist said:


> It makes you wonder, if she had been a man, would the reaction to her policies have been quite so vehemently expressed.


Eh...... Yes.


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## porps

Mese said:


> tbh I think its disgusting that Hitler and Mrs Thatcher are being linked
> Im not a fan of hers , I was too young to care or know what was going on back then
> 
> But Hitler was an evil man with a vendetta against the Jews which he used his position to carry out .... Mrs Thatcher was a woman who was just trying to do the right thing for her country , whether it was the right thing or not she doesnt deserve to be as vilified as Hitler so rightly is


i did not compare the 2. I asked the question of hitler because everyone knows of him and i felt it was the best way to illustrate that just because someone is female you shouldnt automatically respect everything they do.

At no point did i either say or imply that hilter and maggie are similar. It was hypothetical and your disgust is just a way of avoiding the question.


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## smiler84

anyone who thinks Maggie Thatcher was even in the same league of evilness as Hitler needs to get themselves down to a library. I can't see how anyone can make that link unless they are grossly ignorant of the atrocities that Hitler was responsible for.


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## Zayna

RIP Mrs Thatcher x


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## koekemakranka

The point is, she has family and friends who loved her. Imagine if your grandmother died and the neighbours threw a celebration party? It's poor taste and disrespectful to the ones left behind.


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## Colliebarmy

smiler84 said:


> anyone who thinks Maggie Thatcher was even in the same league of evilness as Hitler needs to get themselves down to a library. I can't see how anyone can make that link unless they are grossly ignorant of the atrocities that Hitler was responsible for.


ignorant, ill-informed and in many cases too young to have witnessed her tenure at No 10 themselves, just following what theyve been told

she is blamed for school milk supplies ending but many schools get EU "milk money" to this day but dont buy milk

she is blamed for pit closures, but gas, floods, explosions, geological faults and simple reserve exhaustion closed most pits

she introduced the council tenant right to buy (2,000,000 houses sold)

but for those so happy remember she had a family who have just lost their mother


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## welshjet

Rip Maggie - such a strong lady and character

Thoughts are with your family. X



As for politics, theres always rights and wrongs, and political parties and their.leaders, no matter who they are will never please everyone.


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## Colliebarmy

koekemakranka said:


> The point is, she has family and friends who loved her. Imagine if your grandmother died and the neighbours threw a celebration party? It's poor taste and disrespectful to the ones left behind.


well said...........


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## porps

bad taste or not theres no sense in wasting an opportunity for a party


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## Waterlily

WelshOneEmma said:


> I understand the point. Surely the fact that she ended up like that in the end, compared to what she was in her prime, would have been more upsetting for some than her actual death.
> 
> and i think t-shirts and street parties to celebrate is pretty disgusting.


I agree with that, not giving a crap is one thing, even resenting her.. But to celebrate it is beyond hideous.


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## Bisbow

porps said:


> bad taste or not theres no sense in wasting an opportunity for a party


Then have a party to celebrate her life, not her death


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## porps

Bisbow said:


> Then have a party to celebrate her life, not her death


No.

(10 chars)


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## Mark Walden

In terms with foreign relations, she put Great Britain on the map again. 

There's no doubt she made mistakes, plenty of them, but she made terrific decisions too. She stood up with the Falklands like any man would if his home was invaded even when the majority said no.

The problem with this government is that they are trying to please everyone, washy washy policies that change every week, a country that's on it's knees to the EU and a country that's almost bankrupt. God knows what shed be thinking about it all...


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## Bisbow

porps said:


> No.
> 
> (10 chars)


Just proved my point about being childish


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## MoggyBaby

As I expected, this thread is bringing the true characters of members to the fore. :001_unsure:


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## DoodlesRule

Waterlily said:


> I agree with that, not giving a crap is one thing, even resenting her.. But to celebrate it is beyond hideous.


Totally agree

You are a bit of a softy really aren't you


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## chichi

I think it's actually disgraceful that people are thinking about t-shirts and street parties celebrating MT's death. They should remember, she has family, friends, ex-colleagues, that will be upset by her parting....it's awful that humans can be so unfeeling when people will be in mourning

As for MT.....she made mistakes, thats for sure, but at least she wasn't like this current lot; taking money from the poor and disabled, whilst keeping the rich happy in their privileged lives....and let's face it....they are only picking up the pieces from the last useless bunch of spineless twits

Rest in Peace Margaret Thatcher.


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## chichi

MoggyBaby said:


> As I expected, this thread is bringing the true characters of members to the fore. :001_unsure:


Absolutely MB and I am actually surprised that a couple of members I usually respect have showed themselves up.

There's nothing wrong with saying that MTs death is not of interest to you but to want to celebrate her death ...... that is very low to me


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## porps

Bisbow said:


> Just proved my point about being childish


Oh no some random keyboard warrior called me childish, however will i survive?

Why on earth would i celebrate her life?
besides which all the parties i've seen are to celebrate her demise, there are none ive been invited to to celebrate her life.


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## Colliebarmy

porps said:


> Oh no some random keyboard warrior called me childish, however will i survive?
> 
> Why on earth would i celebrate her life?
> besides which all the parties i've seen are to celebrate her demise, there are none ive been invited to to celebrate her life.


The miners cannot accept that THEY shut the pits by not working....


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## JANICE199

*I never had a good word for the woman while she was alive, i sure as hell am not going to be a hypocrite and praise her now she['s dead. Yep i'm one that's proud to show my true colours.
I wonder how many actually lived under her iron fist.*


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## Jenny1966

porps said:


> Oh no some random keyboard warrior called me childish, however will i survive?
> 
> Why on earth would i celebrate her life?
> besides which all the parties i've seen are to celebrate her demise, there are none ive been invited to to celebrate her life.


You dont have to celebrate her life, but neither should you celebrate her death.

What you should do is respect her family in their loss.


----------



## Jenny1966

JANICE199 said:


> *I never had a good word for the woman while she was alive, i sure as hell am not going to be a hypocrite and praise her now she['s dead. Yep i'm one that's proud to show my true colours.
> I wonder how many actually lived under her iron fist.*


Well I'm certainly old enough


----------



## MoggyBaby

porps said:


> Oh no *some random keyboard warrior* called me childish, however will i survive?


Hmmmmmmmmmm...... I wonder why the words "pot" "calling" "kettle" and "black" are line-dancing across my mind at this moment!!!!


----------



## Colliebarmy

Jenny1966 said:


> Well I'm certainly old enough


you have to have been of working age between 19791990 to have known what she was like as a PM, thats when she was in power


----------



## porps

Jenny1966 said:


> You dont have to celebrate her life, but neither should you celebrate her death.
> 
> What you should do is respect her family in their loss.


im not gonna miss out on a free party...

funny how i didnt see anyone calling the iraqis hideous when they celebrated saddams death, noone was telling them not to celebrate the death of a hated figure...

what that tells me is it's ok to celebrate but people draw their lines in different places.


----------



## Colliebarmy

porps said:


> im not gonna miss out on a free party...
> 
> *funny how i didnt see anyone calling the iraqis hideous when they celebrated saddams death, noone was telling them not to celebrate the death of a hated figure...*
> 
> what that tells me is it's ok to celebrate but people draw their lines in different places.


oh i forgot Thatcher slaughtered, butchered and gassed 1000's of her own countrymen...


----------



## Jenny1966

Colliebarmy said:


> you have to have been of working age between 19791990 to have known what she was like as a PM, thats when she was in power


Well as I started working in 1984 then yes unfortunately I'm still old enough


----------



## Colliebarmy

Jenny1966 said:


> Well as I started working in 1984 then yes unfortunately I'm still old enough


I was a miner......


----------



## porps

Colliebarmy said:


> oh i forgot Thatcher slaughtered, butchered and gassed 1000's of her own countrymen...


way to miss the point.


----------



## Sacrechat

Colliebarmy said:


> you have to have been of working age between 19791990 to have known what she was like as a PM, thats when she was in power


It's official then? I'm an old fart.


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *I never had a good word for the woman while she was alive, i sure as hell am not going to be a hypocrite and praise her now she['s dead. Yep i'm one that's proud to show my true colours.
> I wonder how many actually lived under her iron fist.*


I lived under her "iron fist" :bored: and managed to make a good start to adult life as did most people that surrounded me at that time. We are working class.

I don't deny there were some decisions she made that weren't exactly great but then again, that could be said for any PM through the years.

I wonder how people will remember Tony Blair and Cameron in years to come......cos both have done SO much good for the UK, haven't they


----------



## Colliebarmy

porps said:


> way to miss the point.


t'was you who compared Thatcher to Saddam, not me


----------



## suewhite

chichi said:


> I lived under her "iron fist" :bored: and managed to make a good start to adult life as did most people that surrounded me at that time. We are working class.
> 
> I don't deny there were some decisions she made that weren't exactly great but then again, that could be said for any PM through the years.
> 
> I wonder how people will remember Tony Blair and Cameron in years to come......cos both have done SO much good for the UK, haven't they


We best not leave Mr Brown out


----------



## harley bear

I dont know what all the fuss is about tbh...shes dead and gone, just forget about her.


----------



## WelshOneEmma

porps said:


> Oh no some random keyboard warrior called me childish, however will i survive?
> 
> Why on earth would i celebrate her life?
> *besides which all the parties i've seen are to celebrate her demise, there are none ive been invited to to celebrate her life*.


you can come to the one I'm throwing if you like 

In all seriousness its just crass. How will we look to the next generation? Are we not trying to teach them the value of life and even if you disagree with someone you do it in a polite and informed manner?

Someone also made the comment about the celebration of Saddam Hussein's death in his country - that to me was crass too. Its one thing to celebrate the end of a dictatorship, another the end of someone's life, regardless of how 'evil' they are - what does it make you if you do that? do we not try to imply that our society is more civilised than some of these others currently with the dictatorship issues? I also think it was crass the way the Americans celebrated Osama Bin Laden's death too.


----------



## porps

Colliebarmy said:


> you compared Thatcher to Saddam, not me


actually no, i compared the celebrations that followed saddams death to the celebrations that will follow maggies death.


----------



## newfiesmum

JANICE199 said:


> *I never had a good word for the woman while she was alive, i sure as hell am not going to be a hypocrite and praise her now she['s dead. Yep i'm one that's proud to show my true colours.
> I wonder how many actually lived under her iron fist.*


I did. And I voted for her three times and I would vote for her again if she were to get reincarnated. I can't say she did everything right, in fact there are lots of things she did wrong like sending up the interest rates so people simply could not afford them and selling off all the council houses.

But look at the alternative? Michael Foot wanted to close everything private, not just schools and hospitals, but employment agencies so everyone had to go to the labour exchange. He even wanted to restrict how many cars a family could have.

Given the choice between Margaret Thatcher and Botchitt and Scarper that we have now, I know who I would choose.


----------



## chichi

suewhite said:


> We best not leave Mr Brown out


Thanks Sue; forgot he even existed ........ how could I be so forgetful when he was such a great leader, lol


----------



## chichi

harley bear said:


> I dont know what all the fuss is about tbh...shes dead and gone, just forget about her.


Why should we "forget" about a women who is such a massive part of British political history?


----------



## JANICE199

chichi said:


> I lived under her "iron fist" :bored: and managed to make a good start to adult life as did most people that surrounded me at that time. We are working class.
> 
> I don't deny there were some decisions she made that weren't exactly great but then again, that could be said for any PM through the years.
> 
> I wonder how people will remember Tony Blair and Cameron in years to come......cos both have done SO much good for the UK, haven't they


*If she was so well liked, why do you think people are glad to see the back of her?
She will be remembered that's for sure, but it won't be for the good she did.*


----------



## Mese

porps said:


> i did not compare the 2. I asked the question of hitler because everyone knows of him and i felt it was the best way to illustrate that just because someone is female you shouldnt automatically respect everything they do.
> 
> At no point did i either say or imply that hilter and maggie are similar. It was hypothetical and your disgust is just a way of avoiding the question.


I didnt use the word compare I used the word linked

And im not avoiding anything , regardless of sex respect is earned

I neither respect nor disrespect Mrs Thatcher as I dont know much , if anything , about her or what she did 
I know quite a bit about Hitler as the extermination of the Jews is an interest of mine

Linking those two people is disgusting for the reasons I gave earlier


----------



## harley bear

chichi said:


> Why should we "forget" about a women who is such a massive part of British political history?


Whats the point in arguing over a dead woman?


----------



## Blondey

JANICE199 said:


> *It was MT that made the interest rates that high..I know because i bought my house under her government. It went from 15. something to 17+% in next to no time.
> *


You are possibly right, but who got it to 15% in the first place nd who got it down


----------



## LolaBoo

End of day shes dead, and im sure there a lot nicer people who have passed today who are not even getting a second thought,many will not even have familys so to them i say R.I.P 
To Thatcher i say thank gawd 
Dont care what others think i have my views you have yours!


----------



## newfiesmum

JANICE199 said:


> *If she was so well liked, why do you think people are glad to see the back of her?
> She will be remembered that's for sure, but it won't be for the good she did.*


But Janice, not everyone is glad to see the back of her. I was quite upset when she resigned, felt it was the end of an era, and I think had she run again she would have been voted in again. Shame John Major didn't really get a chance to show his worth; it was like the whole tory party went with her.

I shall remember her for her courage and backbone if nothing else.


----------



## WelshOneEmma

JANICE199 said:


> *If she was so well liked, why do you think people are glad to see the back of her?
> She will be remembered that's for sure, but it won't be for the good she did.*


well it's not exactly PC to say you liked her now is it? those who dislike her are quite loud and like to shout down those who think she did do a good job.

I will say though, I have always known you hated Thatcher so it doesn't 'bother' me (thats not the right word but can't think of it) that you have commented as like you said, you have always been honest about it and can't fault you for that!


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *If she was so well liked, why do you think people are glad to see the back of her?
> She will be remembered that's for sure, but it won't be for the good she did.*


*Some* people will be glad to see the back of her This thread alone proves that not EVERYBODY feels the same as you and a few others on here.


----------



## Julesky

Just to give you an idea- 805 people say they are going to a party on a facebook group- and counting......


----------



## chichi

harley bear said:


> Whats the point in arguing over a dead woman?


I don't think the arguing is over "a dead woman" it's more the lack of respect and understanding of decency where I'm concerned.

Celebrating the DEATH of an elderly person who is leaving behind generations of family/friends, is appalling to me. It's quite sickening, tbh


----------



## Mese

porps said:


> do you understand the concept of "hyopthetical questions"?


Of course I do , but a woman has passed on , her family are grieving ... lets leave it at that shall we


----------



## Jenny1966

Julesky said:


> Just to give you an idea- 805 people say they are going to a party on a facebook group- and counting......


I wonder how many of them are of a certain age ........ or are they just jumping on the FB bandwagon???


----------



## JANICE199

newfiesmum said:


> I did. And I voted for her three times and I would vote for her again if she were to get reincarnated. I can't say she did everything right, in fact there are lots of things she did wrong like sending up the interest rates so people simply could not afford them and selling off all the council houses.
> 
> But look at the alternative? Michael Foot wanted to close everything private, not just schools and hospitals, but employment agencies so everyone had to go to the labour exchange. He even wanted to restrict how many cars a family could have.
> 
> Given the choice between Margaret Thatcher and Botchitt and Scarper that we have now, I know who I would choose.


*Not only did she sell off the council houses she also told people to start up their own businesses, then she hiked up the interest rates which lead to people loosing everything.*


----------



## Julesky

Jenny1966 said:


> I wonder how many of them are of a certain age ........ or are they just jumping on the FB bandwagon???


Indeed.

I will be waiting to see if there even is this big gathering and even more so to see if media cover it.


----------



## Blondey

JANICE199 said:


> *I never had a good word for the woman while she was alive, i sure as hell am not going to be a hypocrite and praise her now she['s dead. Yep i'm one that's proud to show my true colours.
> I wonder how many actually lived under her iron fist.*


I did and was better off for it.


----------



## JANICE199

newfiesmum said:


> But Janice, not everyone is glad to see the back of her. I was quite upset when she resigned, felt it was the end of an era, and I think had she run again she would have been voted in again. Shame John Major didn't really get a chance to show his worth; it was like the whole tory party went with her.
> 
> I shall remember her for her courage and backbone if nothing else.


*Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't she voted out by her own party?*


----------



## Jenny1966

JANICE199 said:


> *Not only did she sell off the council houses she also told people to start up their own businesses, then she hiked up the interest rates which lead to people loosing everything.*


And of course that doesn't happen today .......... how many companies have gone into liquidation, how many people have been made redundant, almost impossible to get a mortgage ......... times haven't really changed that much!

I will say again, this thread shouldn't be about the wrongs and rights of a polictical leader, it should be about respect for a family mourning the loss of a much loved friend, mother and grandmother.


----------



## Guest

Jenny1966 said:


> And of course that doesn't happen today .......... how many companies have gone into liquidation, how many people have been made redundant, almost impossible to get a mortgage ......... times haven't really changed that much!
> 
> I will say again, this thread shouldn't be about the wrongs and rights of a polictical leader, it should be about respect for a family mourning the loss of a much loved friend, mother and grandmother.


Completely agree with this.


----------



## Bisbow

Blondey said:


> I did and was better off for it.


Me too as I have said before


----------



## Goblin

chichi said:


> I lived under her "iron fist" :bored: and managed to make a good start to adult life as did most people that surrounded me at that time. We are working class


Same here. It obviously depends on where you lived though and what the local industry was. Would the coal mines still be open even if MT was never around? How viable was "old industry" in the long term?

As seems the case when a government picks up from labour she inherited a poor economy:

Inflation in double figures
Trade unions pushing wage inflation.
Unemployment increasing to a post war record
High levels of government debt that required borrowing from the IMF. Almost like Greece is doing now.

She may not have done everything right, certain areas were certainly hit hard but overall the average person was better off. One example is that after 1982 inflation never reached double figures.


----------



## LolaBoo

JANICE199 said:


> *Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't she voted out by her own party?*


Yes she was voted out by her own party


----------



## tincan

Aye they basically knifed her in the back .... i actually felt quite sad that , that was the stance they took .... she resigned.... The party lost the spark when she left it has never recovered..... It was their own undoing , that brought the ruin


----------



## JANICE199

Jenny1966 said:


> And of course that doesn't happen today .......... how many companies have gone into liquidation, how many people have been made redundant, almost impossible to get a mortgage ......... times haven't really changed that much!
> 
> I will say again, this thread shouldn't be about the wrongs and rights of a polictical leader, it should be about respect for a family mourning the loss of a much loved friend, mother and grandmother.


*The thread title, said Margaret Thatcher has died. It was bound to have good and bad replies.
As for her family, i'm sure they will not be reading this on a pet forum, but they can hear the bad things being said on the radio.*


----------



## smiler84

Jenny1966 said:


> I wonder how many of them are of a certain age ........ or are they just jumping on the FB bandwagon???


people jumping on a bandwagon? on facebook? surely not!


----------



## Nicky10

Regardless of her politics she was an amazing woman and it must be such a horrible loss to her friends and family.


----------



## Blondey

I was following this thread, I am no longer, I have never read so much nastiness towards a dead person certainly on a 'supposed' pet forum. Have your opinion that's not a problem, but the sheer vitriol IMO is both unacceptable and unnecessary.


----------



## Julesky

Jenny1966 said:


> And of course that doesn't happen today .......... how many companies have gone into liquidation, how many people have been made redundant, almost impossible to get a mortgage ......... times haven't really changed that much!
> 
> I will say again, this thread shouldn't be about the wrongs and rights of a polictical leader, it should be about respect for a family mourning the loss of a much loved friend, mother and grandmother.


Actually I think it should just be respect for the dead, rather than her family.

Any famous figure will court fans/foes- it's part and parcel.

Ultimately she has her place in history and her policies remain in the past.

I do agree that plenty seem to be jumping on the bandwagon.

I'm neither sad she is dead nor happy. But life is life and anyone who passes should be given respect.

I sure hope none of you being sad about celebrating death were baying for Philpott to hang last week------ pots getting kettles all black everywhere.


----------



## chichi

Blondey said:


> I was following this thread, I am no longer, I have never read so much nastiness towards a dead person certainly on a 'supposed' pet forum. Have your opinion that's not a problem, but the sheer vitriol IMO is both unacceptable and unnecessary.


Exactly how I feel. I don't expect people to be sad or to say nice things about MT if they feel otherwise... but some of the comments on here have been nasty to the point of inappropriate...considering we are discussing an elderly lady that has passed on


----------



## welshjet

JANICE199 said:


> *Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't she voted out by her own party?*





LolaBoo said:


> Yes she was voted out by her own party


She wasn't the first and she certainly won't be the last in any political party, conservative, labour or other.

Umm I seem to recall didnt the same happen yo.Blair by Brown and Co, oh not forgetting what happened to Brown  that politics


----------



## newfiesmum

Jenny1966 said:


> I wonder how many of them are of a certain age ........ or are they just jumping on the FB bandwagon???


Most of those people will have no idea who she was anyway I shouldn't think.



JANICE199 said:


> *Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't she voted out by her own party?*


I believe so, because she made the final straw mistake of the dreaded poll tax. That is what finished her, as the voters were getting niggly about that.


----------



## JANICE199

welshjet said:


> She wasn't the first and she certainly won't be the last in any political party, conservative, labour or other.
> 
> Umm I seem to recall didnt the same happen yo.Blair by Brown and Co, oh not forgetting what happened to Brown  that politics


*I think you have quoted me wrongly..i asked the question in reply to another poster.*


----------



## Space Chick

Love her or hate her, she is an icon of the twentieth century.

I feel really sad at her passing, she was a wife and a mother and will have loved ones that are grieving.

All these people who are celebrating, how would you feel if they were celebrating the death of your loved one... Hideous lack of human decency and shame on you!


----------



## ladydog

Blondey said:


> I did and was better off for it.


I wasn't living in England when she was in power, but I remember vividly how us French people disliked her for what she was doing to the UK at the time. I also remember sending food parcels to the families of miners through our school because they were starving.:sad: 
If I recall correctly, she was elected with 30% of the votes. This is hardly a majority and her beliefs that there was no such thing as a society speaks volume to me. She encouraged greed and selfishness.
Don't get me started on the Falklands! Starting a war knowing that you are going to win it is a wonderful way to get re-elected. I shall not mention her views on Nelson Mendala and her refusal to severe her links with South Africa is despicable.
So no I won't be mourning her nor do I rejoice at her passing. I will be very sad when Nelson Mendala dies. A man who has as strong beliefs and principles as Thatcher's but with a love of humanity with it and the wish to unite not divide.


----------



## chichi

Julesky said:


> Actually I think it should just be respect for the dead, rather than her family.
> 
> Any famous figure will court fans/foes- it's part and parcel.
> 
> Ultimately she has her place in history and her policies remain in the past.
> 
> I do agree that plenty seem to be jumping on the bandwagon.
> 
> I'm neither sad she is dead nor happy. But life is life and anyone who passes should be given respect.
> 
> I sure hope none of you being sad about celebrating death were baying for Philpott to hang last week------ pots getting kettles all black everywhere.


Have to say that I am sickened by the fact that MT's death has been likened to some of the most vile people in history. MT didn't kill anyone...she wasn't a mass murderer, a racist, a terrorist or an arsonist that killed his own children.

FWIW I didn't wish that Philpott was given the death penalty (not that the death penalty is even an option in this Country of course). Death is far too good for him:devil: Living his life looking over his shoulder is far better punishment for that evil waste of space


----------



## Knightofalbion

Irrespective of wheter one agreed or disagreed with her policies she was a giant of the political scene and along with the noble, peace seeking Neville Chamberlain and the great war leader Winston Churchill, Margaret Thatcher was one of the greatest political leaders this country has ever produced.


----------



## dougal22

Blondey said:


> I was following this thread, I am no longer, I have never read so much nastiness towards a dead person certainly on a 'supposed' pet forum. Have your opinion that's not a problem, but the sheer vitriol IMO is both unacceptable and unnecessary.


I agree ^^^^ I've just read through the thread and to say I'm shocked is an understatement. It's digusting and beyond any comprehension why MT is being compared to Hitler and Saddam Hussain 

MT wasn't everyone's cup of tea; however *NO* prime minister will ever meet the needs of the entire population. Ever.

I hope her family/friends etc are avoiding ALL social networking sites right now as this talk of street parties, t-shirts etc - abhorrent 

RIP Margaret Thatcher.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MoggyBaby said:


> Just seen this on BBC website....
> 
> I know many will disagree but she was an amazing woman who was not afraid to stand up and defend the rights of this country against those in Europe. If today's MP's had half of her b*lls, we'd be in a far better position within the EU. Instead, they just wipe their feet on us and treat us like a doormat.
> 
> She may have made mistakes - well, she was a human being so it's allowed - but by golly, she was not the she-devil so many try to make her out to be.
> 
> RIP Maggie - you were one awesome lady!!





x PIXIE x said:


> Throughout the 80s I know my dad hated her. His mum was one of the victims of thatcher Britain. I think it's sad that anyone has died, regardless of political opinion. She made Britain great, she fought for what she believed in and showed what a woman could do with hard work and belief.
> 
> It's very sad -RIP Lady Thatcher





newfiesmum said:


> Three terms I seem to remember. For all everyone moaned about her, they still kept voting her back in. The labour party at the time were bordering on communism. In fact during one party conference I watched, they were calling each other "comrade" and people did not want that, no matter how bad they thought she was. Unfortunately Tony Blair turned it into a mini tory party so we don't actually have a labour party at all any more. I don't think we have had one since Harold Wilson.
> 
> I remember best that she would not give in to Arthur Scargill who declared that he was going to bring down the government, the same government that the public had voted in, because he didn't like them. Another communist pratt and I was very pleased that Margaret Thatcher did not let him get away with it.


MB - What planet do you live on,
Pixie - We didn't need a woman (I use the lightly) like her to make Britain great.
Newfiesmom - The only thing that brought the miners down is they decided to strike in the summer, if only they waited a until the winter they would have brought the government down.


----------



## FEJA JUODAS

tincan said:


> Love her or hate her .... She was a force to be reckoned with ... Took no sh1t..... stood by her guns ... and as a woman i admired her for that  RIP Maggie ...


*HEAR HEAR !!!! *

:dita:

some memorable quotes...just a few...the only one i didnt like that she is attributed with is the one that goes...there is no alternative...because i dont like that idea for anything in life but people did like to pick on that one.. she had so many great ones....

"If you want something said, ask a man...if you want something done, ask a woman." :dita:

"I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end."

and i LOVE THIS ONE MOST OF ALL ! many people should take note hey !!!

*"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't."*

why do i like it ? because many people once they get power abuse it. and keep telling others how important they are due to whatever they think they have or have as experience titles etc...i always think of the motto of prince charles prince of wales also in this area ICH DIEN meaning I SERVE ! not i rule ! he SERVES ! and many in power or just trying to bully others forget this important matter...calling oneself a LEADER or an ALPHA does not give the RIGHT TO RULE WELL ! in anything unless it is earned...having the title is easy sometimes...using it to get results is another matter...

Margeret Thatcher...voted into power several times...by the people...by the nation...not many manage that...


----------



## Sacrechat

JANICE199 said:


> *The thread title, said Margaret Thatcher has died. It was bound to have good and bad replies.
> As for her family, i'm sure they will not be reading this on a pet forum, but they can hear the bad things being said on the radio.*


People have been saying bad things about MT for years, I seriously doubt anything they hear now will come as a surprise really. Not saying it is right, of course, I actually don't give a damn either way, to be honest.


----------



## suzy93074

I cannot say im surprised but I am sad by some of the awful things being said ...not just on here but on FB etc.....

I know many people disliked her - hated her even but to rejoice in someone's death just does not sit right with me...I simply cannot do that no matter how much I may not agree with some of her policies.

End of the day she was somebody's wife,mother,daughter,grandmother...and no matter what she did in her past as a career people should at least respect that and think of her loved ones - say you dont like her by all means and that you disagreed with how she ran the country - but some of the vile things being said on these social sites portrays IMO just what sort of society we have ....many people commenting dont even know what she stood for they are just getting on board the hate train  - really they should be ashamed of themselves


----------



## dougal22

FEJA JUODAS said:


> Margeret Thatcher...voted into power several times...by the people...by the nation...not many manage that...


Gives me hope that the haters are in a minority. I hope it pIsses down with rain/hail for all street parties


----------



## Sacrechat

newfiesmum said:


> Most of those people will have no idea who she was anyway I shouldn't think.
> 
> I believe so, because she made the final straw mistake of the dreaded poll tax. That is what finished her, as the voters were getting niggly about that.


I still remember that effigy of her being hung from a building: can't remember where it was but I do recall it was over the poll tax.


----------



## auspiciousmind

Haven't read all the way through this thread but wanted to comment after seeing a few statuses on Facebook.

I am in the "real world" (as in not on PF) fairly outspoken about my political views and have so many debates with my family , friends and complete strangers that wanted to have a debate with me about it.

I am no fan of Margret Thatcher but I'm quite appalled by some of the statuses that my friends/ family have put on facebook about her.



> "Thank you god for finally putting this disgusting human being out of our existence


To actually be thankful that a human being has died?? I don't get it. It's not like she was the Camden or Jack the Ripper.. She wasn't a paedophile..

I think David Cameron is an absolute cock but I wouldn't wish death on him...


----------



## Jenny1966

How can people be so disrespectful 

What a sad, sad world we live in .......


----------



## Knightofalbion

I've joined this thread late and have just been reading back through some of the posts and frankly I've been shocked by some of the malicious comments that have been made.

Regardless of what one thought of her policies and her political ideals, she was still a human being - wife, mother and friend (and at the end, a frail elderly lady suffering from dementia) - who passed away only a few hours ago...

Either show respect or maintain a dignified silence.

[For the record, no, I never voted for her.]


----------



## Nicky10

It's hard to believe the comments to be thankful that a human being is dead :001_unsure:. It's not like she murdered millions or was a paedophile or anything.


----------



## suewhite

Jenny1966 said:


> How can people be so disrespectful
> 
> What a sad, sad world we live in .......


Putting it bluntly I think because they just have "sh*t for brains"shame but thats humans.


----------



## Goblin

Happy Paws said:


> [/COLOR]
> The only thing that brought the miners down is they decided to strike in the summer


Wasn't the fact they were being led by people whose only agenda was their own power at all of course. Didn't Scargill have the joy of living, when retired, in a £1.5m three-bedroom flat at least until the National Union of Mineworkers decided they couldn't afford to pay his rent last year? Seems strange that lessons haven't been learned. Bob Crow of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT) lives in a rented Housing Association property earning more than £140,000 per year from what I can tell. Far easier to blame someone like MT than look at things like that.

I'll ask again in case you missed it.. do you honestly believe the mining industry still be going now if the strikes had succeeded?


----------



## FEJA JUODAS

suzy93074 said:


> I cannot say im surprised but I am sad by some of the awful things being said ...not just on here but on FB etc.....
> 
> I know many people disliked her - hated her even but to rejoice in someone's death just does not sit right with me...I simply cannot do that no matter how much I may not agree with some of her policies.
> 
> End of the day she was somebody's wife,mother,daughter,grandmother...and no matter what she did in her past as a career people should at least respect that and think of her loved ones - say you dont like her by all means and that you disagreed with how she ran the country - but some of the vile things being said on these social sites portrays IMO just what sort of society we have ....many people commenting dont even know what she stood for they are just getting on board the hate train  - really they should be ashamed of themselves


i joined this thread late so havent read all the posts...but see shock at some reactions to the death of an ex prime minister voted in several times by the people democratically who to my knowledge did no tortures no financial swindles and was honest above all things as far as i could see

that some make such negative comments targeting even the frail old person she was does not surprise me there is always a pack of hyeenas in the human world that make hyeenas seem pleasant ...at least some eat dead meat to live on ! that is yes the difference...some do it for kicks if human. no surprises.


----------



## porps

Nicky10 said:


> It's hard to believe the comments to be thankful that a human being is dead :001_unsure:. _It's not like she murdered millions or was a paedophile or anything_.


this post and others like it seem to imply that if she was a pedo or she had murdered millions then it would be ok to be thankful that she is dead, whilst at the same time saying how disguested they are that anyone can be thankful that another human is dead.



suewhite said:


> Putting it bluntly I think because they just have "sh*t for brains"shame but thats humans.


if thats humans then why shoudlnt we be glad about one less?


----------



## Nicky10

I wouldn't be thankful anyone was dead but it would be easier to understand if she was the sort of person people are comparing her to :001_unsure:


----------



## Bisbow

After reading some of the dreadfull things on here I feel ashamed to know they are from the same country as me

I can't stand the lillyliversd Milliband and his bunch of idiots but I would never wish him dead or say some of the vile things said.

It is disgusting behaviour and I wonder what sort of world my grandchildren will be living in after I am gone


----------



## JANICE199

suewhite said:


> Putting it bluntly I think because they just have "sh*t for brains"shame but thats humans.


*Well i for one haven't got sh*t for brains. I have always said what i think and always will.
I'm not out to please anyone, never have been.
Going back to MT..why would anyone show her respect when she's dead, but not when she was alive?
People earn respect, it's not handed out on a plate.*


----------



## Guest

suzy93074 said:


> I cannot say im surprised but I am sad by some of the awful things being said ...not just on here but on FB etc.....
> 
> I know many people disliked her - hated her even but to rejoice in someone's death just does not sit right with me...I simply cannot do that no matter how much I may not agree with some of her policies.
> 
> End of the day she was somebody's wife,mother,daughter,grandmother...and no matter what she did in her past as a career people should at least respect that and think of her loved ones - say you dont like her by all means and that you disagreed with how she ran the country - but some of the vile things being said on these social sites portrays IMO just what sort of society we have ....many people commenting dont even know what she stood for they are just getting on board the hate train  - really they should be ashamed of themselves


 I was going to write something in response to this thread but you've pretty much written what I would have.
I wasn't alive when she was prime minister so I can't comment on that side of things, however having seen some of the comments dotted around here and on facebook etc I am pretty shocked at some people. Having a laugh because she's passed away just doesn't sit right with me. 
Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion etc but some comments really are uncalled for. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular on this thread btw.


----------



## JANICE199

Bisbow said:


> After reading some of the dreadfull things on here I feel ashamed to know they are from the same country as me
> 
> I can't stand the lillyliversd Milliband and his bunch of idiots but I would never wish him dead or say some of the vile things said.
> 
> It is disgusting behaviour and I wonder what sort of world my grandchildren will be living in after I am gone


*But nobody on here did wish her dead. It happened and people are airing their views.*


----------



## lozzibear

I was never a fan on Thatcher, and maybe I don't have the same hate for her as others because she was a bit before my time. However, I think the jokes and comments about her death are absolutely disgusting. She was still a human, a mother, a grandmother... She may have made some wrong decisions, but she was hardly an evil, mass murder...


----------



## Jenny1966

JANICE199 said:


> *Well i for one haven't got sh*t for brains. I have always said what i think and always will.
> I'm not out to please anyone, never have been.
> Going back to MT..why would anyone show her respect when she's dead, but not when she was alive?
> People earn respect, it's not handed out on a plate.*


I think this thread has shown that MANY people did respect her.


----------



## Magnus

JANICE199 said:


> *People earn respect, it's not handed out on a plate.*


Earning something rather than having it handed to them.......?

You're a Thatcherite after all.

R.I.P. Baroness Thatcher. Thank you.


----------



## JANICE199

Magnus said:


> Earning something rather than having it handed to them.......?
> 
> You're a Thatcherite after all.
> 
> R.I.P. Baroness Thatcher. Thank you.


*Do you have to be a Thatcherite to give respect?*


----------



## Magnus

JANICE199 said:


> *Do you have to be a Thatcherite to give respect?*


Why don't you show some?


----------



## Phoolf

Well thank god for that - evil, twisted woman. Makes me wish I believed in hell for the likes of her to rot in.


----------



## suewhite

JANICE199 said:


> *Well i for one haven't got sh*t for brains. I have always said what i think and always will.
> I'm not out to please anyone, never have been.
> Going back to MT..why would anyone show her respect when she's dead, but not when she was alive?
> People earn respect, it's not handed out on a plate.*


I was'nt meaning on here I was meaning on FB and Twitter in reply to the post


----------



## JANICE199

Magnus said:


> Why don't you show some?


*Believe me i am showing respect..I haven't said exactly what i think.*


----------



## JANICE199

suewhite said:


> I was'nt meaning on here I was meaning on FB and Twitter in reply to the post


*Sue my post was not aimed at you, although i used your quote.*


----------



## WelshOneEmma

someone has posted the following on FB which i think is a nice way to say it - 

I see Thatcher has breathed her last. Not seen the news. At the gym and the other half phoned. I'm not in mourning. I know many will be. I have empathy for her final years as dementia is a cruel disease and I work in dementia. But the Thatcher who came to power when I was ten was an unsympathetic tyrant and only got worse. She was also an impressive brave woman with balls bigger than any man. She will be remembered for a long time for all the best and worst reasons. I can't resent anyone though who lived their final years demented. Perhaps I have the heart she lacked?


----------



## tincan

I respect her in Death as i did when she was PM ....... 

I think she was totally unique , and no matter what peoples feelings are on her , she will remain a part of our Political History and rightly so .....
She changed this country , whether it good or bad people have their own opinions , I have mine , but nastiness , and vitriol within this thread is pretty shocking ..... where has our empathy gone ? I will be raising a glass to the old girl tonight in celebration of her life and what she achieved


----------



## Sacrechat

Link to report on demonstration against poll tax at Trafalgar Square:

20 years ago today - the protest that brought down Thatcher and her Poll Tax! | BARRYKADE


----------



## dorrit

To me she is and will always be known as Maggie Thatcher , milk snatcher.

Way back in the 1970's, she was education minester and she decided to cut costs by stopping the free milk for children above a particular age.. Eventually milk was cut altogether.

Many may not have liked milk but to some children it was a luxury.


----------



## JANICE199

Sacremist said:


> Link to report on demonstration against poll tax at Trafalgar Square:
> 
> 20 years ago today  the protest that brought down Thatcher and her Poll Tax! | BARRYKADE


*People went turned out in their thousands a couple of weeks ago in protest against the bedroom tax. But the news chanels didn't cover it.*


----------



## dougal22

dorrit said:


> To me she is and will always be known as Maggie Thatcher , milk snatcher.
> 
> Way back in the 1970's, she was education minester and she decided to cut costs by stopping the free milk for children above a particular age.. Eventually milk was cut altogether.
> 
> *
> Many may not have liked milk but to some children it was a luxury*.


Surely a luxury that should have been provided by parents who made the choice to have these children and not expect luxuries at the expense of the Education Dept?


----------



## Julesky

chichi said:


> Have to say that I am sickened by the fact that MT's death has been likened to some of the most vile people in history. MT didn't kill anyone...she wasn't a mass murderer, a racist, a terrorist or an arsonist that killed his own children.
> 
> FWIW I didn't wish that Philpott was given the death penalty (not that the death penalty is even an option in this Country of course). Death is far too good for him:devil: Living his life looking over his shoulder is far better punishment for that evil waste of space


I haven't likened her to anyone or indeed given any celebration at her passing- my point was that we should respect the dead and life in general and that there is no glory in celebrating the death of anyone.

Infact I bemoaned the example of Godwin's law.

Incidently- there is a very reasonable argument that politicians, leaders of countries can be described as murderers- just saying (but not about mags before you reply )


----------



## Jenny1966

dougal22 said:


> Surely a luxury that should have been provided by parents who made the choice to have these children and not expect luxuries at the expense of the Education Dept?


But it's easier to blame MT!

I enjoyed my free bottle of milk, but I certainly never missed it when it stopped!


----------



## Julesky

dougal22 said:


> Surely a luxury that should have been provided by parents who made the choice to have these children and not expect luxuries at the expense of the Education Dept?


What an ACTUAL nonsense.

Yeah sure- will they also save up for their vaccinations and get them insured? Geez-o.


----------



## haeveymolly

dougal22 said:


> Surely a luxury that should have been provided by parents who made the choice to have these children and not expect luxuries at the expense of the Education Dept?


Exactly, thats the difference between then and now. Not a lot is parents responsibility these days.


----------



## dorrit

dougal22 said:


> Surely a luxury that should have been provided by parents who made the choice to have these children and not expect luxuries at the expense of the Education Dept?


It was provided as a nutritional supliment to the children as many post war children will also remember the cod liver oil and malt that was given out regularly ..
The point was poverty was real and rife and these luxuries were not really luxuries at all.


----------



## Julesky

dorrit said:


> It was provided as a nutritional supliment to the children as many post war children will also remember the cod liver oil and malt that was given out regularly ..
> The point was poverty was real and rife and these luxuries were not really luxuries at all.


Bravo- some common sense


----------



## nutty

Waterlily said:


> *ponders if hitler had of developed dementia and started dribbling, would he get sympathy too.


To intimate that Thatcher was even anything like Hitler is completely unjust. Baroness Thatcher did have dementia, true, and naturally it is sad when anyone sufferers in later life. However, she WAS actually respected by many, and had the courage of her convictions. Any failings she had did not stem from being callous, bigotted and contemptuous as with Hitler. She had no side to her either, and was not seduced by public office - misguided at times yes, but she was not malicious.

I cannot believe how mercenary you lot are!


----------



## Julesky

haeveymolly said:


> Exactly, thats the difference between then and now. Not a lot is parents responsibility these days.


Hi!

I don't quite understand your post- that was then, when the milk was stopped... what has that got to do with now??

Apologies if i'm misreading!


----------



## Sacrechat

School milk gave me great teeth. My good teeth have saved the NHS a fortune over the years.


----------



## dougal22

dorrit said:


> It was provided as a nutritional supliment to the children as many post war children will also remember the cod liver oil and malt that was given out regularly ..
> The point was poverty was real and rife and these luxuries were not really luxuries at all.


MT stopped milk in the 70's, so post war poverty was hardly applicable then.


----------



## haeveymolly

Julesky said:


> Hi!
> 
> I don't quite understand your post- that was then, when the milk was stopped... what has that got to do with now??
> 
> Apologies if i'm misreading!


It was in reply to the member that said surely wasnt the luxury down to the parents, yes it was, today we seem to have taken a lot of responsibility off parents.....more of a nanny state now than the 70's


----------



## JANICE199

dorrit said:


> It was provided as a nutritional supliment to the children as many post war children will also remember the cod liver oil and malt that was given out regularly ..
> The point was poverty was real and rife and these luxuries were not really luxuries at all.


*Oh i remember the cod liver oil and malt supplements.
Parents of young children could also go to the clinic and get, milk, rosehip syrup and pure orange juice.
There are many children that could do with this coming back.*


----------



## Julesky

Dougal- there was a recession

HMolly- thanks! Was confused, read it the other way around


----------



## Colliebarmy

I bet it will at least 30 years before we have another woman PM....or never


----------



## Julesky

Colliebarmy said:


> I bet it will at least 30 years before we have another woman PM....or never


Never say never!


----------



## LolaBoo

JANICE199 said:


> *Well i for one haven't got sh*t for brains. I have always said what i think and always will.
> I'm not out to please anyone, never have been.
> Going back to MT..why would anyone show her respect when she's dead, but not when she was alive?
> People earn respect, it's not handed out on a plate.*


I actually commented on FB early, why should i respect her when shes dead,when i didnt when she was alive, im not a hypocrite and im same i say what i think im not out to please anyone


----------



## nutty

JANICE199 said:


> *Oh i remember the cod liver oil and malt supplements.
> Parents of young children could also go to the clinic and get, milk, rosehip syrup and pure orange juice.
> There are many children that could do with this coming back.*


There are some who could do with a regular run around of exercise and fresh air too, but it simply isnt going to happen. Perhaps we should blame that on the State too...


----------



## Colliebarmy

JANICE199 said:


> *Oh i remember the cod liver oil and malt supplements.
> Parents of young children could also go to the clinic and get, milk, rosehip syrup and pure orange juice.
> There are many children that could do with this coming back.*


Diets were generally poorer when the above items were availabe FOC at clinics, they were also relatively expensive, kids now get a big mac instead....


----------



## Jenny1966

Colliebarmy said:


> I bet it will at least 30 years before we have another woman PM....or never


After this thread I wouldn't wish being PM on anyone :lol:


----------



## Colliebarmy

nutty said:


> There are some who could do with a regular run around of exercise and fresh air too, but it simply isnt going to happen. Perhaps we should blame that on the State too...


of course

and thats despite all the hype, money and promo of London 2012...


----------



## JANICE199

nutty said:


> There are some who could do with a regular run around of exercise and fresh air too, but it simply isnt going to happen. Perhaps we should blame that on the State too...


*Not sure what your point is. I was just pointing out that there are children in this day and age that are worse off than i was in the 50's.
I had 3 meals a day, without fail, how many kids can say that today?*


----------



## Colliebarmy

Jenny1966 said:


> After this thread I wouldn't wish being PM on anyone :lol:


its very much a poison chalice, the skill is to pass it on quickly

Blair ---- Brown, etc


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *Not sure what your point is. I was just pointing out that there are children in this day and age that are worse off than i was in the 50's.
> I had 3 meals a day, without fail, how many kids can say that today?*


My kids could say that and all the kids of my family, extended family and friends (3 meals a day). There is also plenty of milk, fruit and snacks available too.

And for the record (the Big Mac comment somebody made) I cannot abide giving my kids McDonalds but do so once in a while as a treat. Not all parents today give their kids fast food. Chicken Nuggets and the like is complete trash to me. All meals are prepared from fresh products and cooked from scratch in this house


----------



## JANICE199

Colliebarmy said:


> Diets were generally poorer when the above items were availabe FOC at clinics, they were also relatively expensive, kids now get a big mac instead....


*I was born 1950, now remember that rationing didn't stop in this country until 1954 ( if my memory is correct). We had 3 meals every day without fail.As for the items i named, they were free.*
eta. not sure what you meant by FOC.


----------



## Kitty_pig

Cant say I hated HER as such as I never knew her. But what she did to this country and especially the miners, steel workers etc I could never forgive her for. She was a strong woman but in my eyes and many eyes of others she was an awful leader who crippled this country (admittedly no more than the current shower of toffs are doing). 

A mother, An ex prime minister, an old lady. Shes gone, as others have said no tears to be shed here.


----------



## JAChihuahua

> We will laugh the day that Thatcher dies,
> Even though we know it's not right,
> We will dance and sing all night.
> 
> I was blind in 1979, by '82 I had clues,
> By 1986 I was mad as hell.
> 
> The teachers at school, they took us for fools,
> They never taught us what to do,
> But Christ we were strong, we knew all along,
> We taught ourselves the right from wrong.
> 
> And the punk rock kids, and the techno kids,
> No, it's not their fault.
> And the hip hop boys and heavy metal girls,
> No, it's not their fault.
> 
> It was love, but Tories don't know what that means,
> She was Michelle Cox from the lower stream,
> She wore high-heeled shoes while the rest wore flat soles.
> 
> And the playground taught her how to be cruel,
> I talked politics and she called me a fool,
> She wrapped her ankle chain round my left wing heart.
> 
> Ding dong, the witch is dead, which old witch?
> The wicked witch.
> Ding dong, the wicked witch is dead.


Lyrics from Hefner - The Day that Thatcher Dies

Sums my feelings up pretty well really!

the day that thatcher dies - YouTube


----------



## nutty

JANICE199 said:


> *Not sure what your point is. I was just pointing out that there are children in this day and age that are worse off than i was in the 50's.
> I had 3 meals a day, without fail, how many kids can say that today?*


The point is that we simply cannot blame the government for all the country's ills. Some of this - a lot of it in fact, is down to society and the way we raise our children.


----------



## Guest

Margaret Thatcher Did It Her Way - Spitting Image Clip Included


----------



## Julesky

nutty said:


> The point is that we simply cannot blame the government for all the country's ills. Some of this - a lot of it in fact, is down to society and the way we raise our children.


Ummmm a lot is also down to the opportunities given to those most in need and bringing people out of poverty. You cannot raise a child properly if the area you live in has a dreadful school, you have to work all hours of the day and childcare is unaffordable.

Don't get me wrong- I think society has to shake itself up- but those who want to help themselves are often overlooked.

It's a matrix of issues- some state, some mentality- but it's a vicious circle- don't believe the hype, poverty occurs on our doorstep.


----------



## Magnus

JAChihuahua said:


> Lyrics from Hefner - The Day that Thatcher Dies
> 
> Sums my feelings up pretty well really!
> 
> the day that thatcher dies - YouTube


Disgraceful. You are beneath contempt for even posting that.


----------



## Phoolf

Magnus said:


> Disgraceful. You are beneath contempt for even posting that.


In your opinion


----------



## Bisbow

Magnus said:


> Disgraceful. You are beneath contempt for even posting that.


How I agree with that

I can't stand Tony Blair and all he stands for but I would not jump up and down in glee if he died tomorrow.

He and his goverment did more to ruin this country than Maggie ever did but no way would I rejoice if he died.

I hope I am not so ignorant as that as some seem to be about Maggies death.


----------



## JAChihuahua

Magnus said:


> Disgraceful. You are beneath contempt for even posting that.


its a song! released and published by a band.

To be honest, I am happy to be below contempt for those who would defend her.


----------



## JAChihuahua

Bisbow said:


> How I agree with that
> 
> I can't stand Tony Blair and all he stands for but I would not jump up and down in glee if he died tomorrow.
> 
> He and his goverment did more to ruin this country than Maggie ever did but no way would I rejoice if he died.
> 
> I hope I am not so ignorant as that as some seem to be about Maggies death.


Not ignorant... a deep down and personal hatred born from personal experience and a personal family members death. I refuse to post the details, as that would seem like I am after a sympathy vote or to justify myself, which I am not. I have nothing to justify myself about.

This is a public forum, and I respect your views are very different from mine, but that is simply the nature of a forum... we all get to air our views, regardless of whether we agree or not!


----------



## MissShelley

Love her or hate her, at least she had the balls to stand up and fight for what she believed in. 

Thoughts with her family, as they have lost someone very valuable to them. I think it's easy to forget that underneath the Iron Lady persona, she was just a woman.


----------



## Phoolf

MissShelley said:


> Love her or hate her, at least she had the balls to stand up and fight for what she believed in.


So did Stalin

We're lucky she's the closest we ever came to a tyrant


----------



## wind1

Whatever we all feel about her, like her or hate her, some of these comments are disgusting. Those of you who hated her so much, that is fine, we all have our own ideas, opinions and views but couldn't you just be a little respectful and say you didn't like her and leave it at that?


----------



## Magnus

JAChihuahua said:


> Not ignorant... a deep down and personal hatred born from personal experience and a personal family members death. I refuse to post the details, as that would seem like I am after a sympathy vote or to justify myself, which I am not. I have nothing to justify myself about.
> 
> This is a public forum, and I respect your views are very different from mine, but that is simply the nature of a forum... we all get to air our views, regardless of whether we agree or not!


Have you never been taught not to speak ill of the dead?


----------



## Phoolf

wind1 said:


> Whatever we all feel about her, like her or hate her, some of these comments are disgusting. Those of you who hated her so much, that is fine, we all have our own ideas, opinions and views but couldn't you just be a little respectful and say you didn't like her and leave it at that?


If your family members died because of her policies would you 'leave it at that' I wonder - The lack of respect for those who suffered through her reign is disgusting imo


----------



## Phoolf

RIP to the woman who didn't want sanctions against apartheid in South Africa.

I think not


----------



## JANICE199

MissShelley said:


> Love her or hate her, at least she had the balls to stand up and fight for what she believed in.
> 
> Thoughts with her family, as they have lost someone very valuable to them. I think it's easy to forget that underneath the Iron Lady persona, she was just a woman.


*She should have been thinking about what " her" people believed in. It's all well and good her standing up and saying, " this lady is not for turning", but how many people suffered because of her selfish attitude?
I will say again, those that are putting her on a pedestal, Cameron WILL finish what she started. I wonder how many will hail her the hero then.*


----------



## JAChihuahua

Magnus said:


> Have you never been taught not to speak ill of the dead?


Oh yes, but there is always one exception to every rule!


----------



## JANICE199

Magnus said:


> Have you never been taught not to speak ill of the dead?


*Better to be a hypocrite then?*


----------



## Phoolf

Ken Livingstone:

"She created today's housing crisis. She created the banking crisis. And she created the benefits crisis. It was her government that started putting people on incapacity benefit rather than register them as unemployed because the Britain she inherited was broadly full employment. She decided when she wrote off our manufacturing industry that she could live with two or three million unemployed, and the benefits bill, the legacy of that, we are struggling with today. In actual fact, every real problem we face today is the legacy of the fact that she was fundamentally wrong."


----------



## LolaBoo

JANICE199 said:


> *Better to be a hypocrite then?*


You must never say anything that you dont believe in, just incase you upset people didnt you know that


----------



## MissShelley

JANICE199 said:


> *She should have been thinking about what " her" people believed in. It's all well and good her standing up and saying, " this lady is not for turning", but how many people suffered because of her selfish attitude?
> I will say again, those that are putting her on a pedestal, Cameron WILL finish what she started. I wonder how many will hail her the hero then.*


Maybe she should of, but she didn't. And who knows the reasons behind her decisions.

I haven't given my opinion of her, no point. She is dead and gone.

Out of respect for her family, I will make no more comment about her.

The world will carry on turning, leaders will carry on doing what they do...It's the way of the world, however unfair.


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *She should have been thinking about what " her" people believed in. It's all well and good her standing up and saying, " this lady is not for turning", but how many people suffered because of her selfish attitude?
> I will say again, those that are putting her on a pedestal, Cameron WILL finish what she started. I wonder how many will hail her the hero then.*


Janice did Blair or Brown do a better job than Thatcher did? Cameron is sorting out the sh!t Labour left behind them. They are all out for themselves yet I only see you slating Conservative leaders....Getting a bit old now tbh *yawn*


----------



## JAChihuahua

chichi said:


> Janice did Blair or Brown do a better job than Thatcher did? Cameron is sorting out the sh!t Labour left behind them. They are all out for themselves yet I only see you slating Conservative leaders....Getting a bit old now tbh *yawn*


The Common People - YouTube

This was before the election! we were warned!

No I dont think blair or brown did a great job, but I do think labour were much much better than any Tory gvt. Again my opinon, and I realise its different than yours!

Cant see cameron sorting out any Sh!t myself, more like leaving a bigger mess to sort out later!


----------



## Sacrechat

Julesky said:


> Ummmm a lot is also down to the opportunities given to those most in need and bringing people out of poverty. You cannot raise a child properly if the area you live in has a dreadful school, you have to work all hours of the day and childcare is unaffordable.
> 
> Don't get me wrong- I think society has to shake itself up- but those who want to help themselves are often overlooked.
> 
> It's a matrix of issues- some state, some mentality- but it's a vicious circle- don't believe the hype, poverty occurs on our doorstep.


For some bizarre reason, this post has reminded me of MT's words when she told people to get on their bikes to find work.


----------



## Kirkland

I find some comments here, on facebook, twitter and other forums very shocking. If you disagreed with her policies fine but there are other ways of voicing that opinion other than being offensive and showing a lack of respect towards the family.


----------



## chichi

JAChihuahua said:


> The Common People - YouTube
> 
> This was before the election! we were warned!
> 
> No I dont think blair or brown did a great job, but I do think labour were much much better than any Tory gvt. Again my opinon, and I realise its different than yours!
> 
> Cant see cameron sorting out any Sh!t myself, more like leaving a bigger mess to sort out later!


Well at least you agree that Labour left plenty of sh1t behind them. Like I said..they are all out for themselves but get sick of people banging on about how bad Conservative Government is. The Country is in the biggest [email protected] state its been in for years and Conservative havent been in long enough to blame it all on them.


----------



## wind1

Phoolf said:


> If your family members died because of her policies would you 'leave it at that' I wonder - The lack of respect for those who suffered through her reign is disgusting imo


I would on a public forum yes, and I can't speak for anyone else but I am certainly not showing a lack of respect for those who suffered


----------



## JANICE199

chichi said:


> Janice did Blair or Brown do a better job than Thatcher did? Cameron is sorting out the sh!t Labour left behind them. They are all out for themselves yet I only see you slating Conservative leaders....Getting a bit old now tbh *yawn*


*My honest opinion? Well Blair i thought was as bad as Cameron. Now Gordon Brown imo had the peoples interest at heart. His downfall was, he didn't have a pretty face. He was, imo. a great chancellor.
Cameron WILL be worse than Thatcher. He will be the ruin of this country.*


----------



## JANICE199

Sacremist said:


> For some bizarre reason, this post has reminded me of MT's words when she told people to get on their bikes to find work.


*Wasn't that Norman Tebbit?*


----------



## MoggyBaby

Julesky said:


> Dougal- there was a recession


There was a recession in 2009 - I don't recall the Labour incumbents rushing to re-instate the free milk then....



Colliebarmy said:


> I bet it will at least 30 years before we have another woman PM....or never


I dunno why - We've had a plethora of male PM's over the centuries and none of them seem to have been any good!!!

Or maybe it will be because women actually DO have bigger b*lls when it comes right down to it.


----------



## Magnus

JANICE199 said:


> *Better to be a hypocrite then?*


No, better to keep your mouth shut.


----------



## Magnus

JANICE199 said:


> *My honest opinion? Well Blair i thought was as bad as Cameron. Now Gordon Brown imo had the peoples interest at heart. His downfall was, he didn't have a pretty face. He was, imo. a great chancellor.
> Cameron WILL be worse than Thatcher. He will be the ruin of this country.*


Do you actually believe any of the total ******** you write on here?


----------



## Burrowzig

harley bear said:


> OMG i feel terrible! But when i read the title this ran through my mind.....
> 
> *Ding dong the witch is dead*!...which old which?....the wicked witch!
> 
> Im now going to sit in a dark room and prey for my soul


Me too, exactly that song! But I don't feel terrible, I just think about what she did to British industry, and the poor. I'm glad she's gone.

And another song. Oh Happy Day. Good riddance to her.


----------



## Kirkland

> My honest opinion? Well Blair i thought was as bad as Cameron. Now Gordon Brown imo had the peoples interest at heart. His downfall was, he didn't have a pretty face. He was, imo. a great chancellor.


A great Chancellor? You are talking about the man who said he had "abolished boom and bust", claimed he saved the world and sold off half the UK gold reserve when gold was at it's lowest price in 20 years at $252 per ounce..... gold is now worth over $1000 per ounce. He was as clueless as the current lot but thats what you get from career politicians.


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *My honest opinion? Well Blair i thought was as bad as Cameron. Now Gordon Brown imo had the peoples interest at heart. His downfall was, he didn't have a pretty face. He was, imo. a great chancellor.
> Cameron WILL be worse than Thatcher. He will be the ruin of this country.*


You really think just Browns looks let him down.....

The Country is already in ruins....its just whether it can be re-built. Sadly I dont hold out much hope but I dont blame one party. Gradually...along the way they have all added to the state we are in now.


----------



## JAChihuahua

Magnus said:


> Do you actually believe any of the total ******** you write on here?


I do!

Thats why I stand up to be counted! Its why I excercise my right to (almost!) free speech, and my right to vote!

Rather immature your comment dont you think?
You disagree, thats fine, and I will defend your right to have and voice your own opinion... but dont belittle others for theirs!

If my or others opinions offend you so much.... you know where the ignore button is!


----------



## Burrowzig

Phoolf said:


> So did Stalin
> 
> We're lucky she's the closest we ever came to a tyrant


And she was so close to Pinochet.


----------



## Magnus

So you can dish it out but you can't take it. 

I think you have the immaturity thing well covered.

Grow up and don't speak ill of the dead.


----------



## Starlite

Ding Dong the bitch is dead! 

Parties on the streets!


----------



## JAChihuahua

Magnus said:


> So you can dish it out but you can't take it.
> 
> I think you have the immaturity thing well covered.
> 
> Grow up and don't speak ill of the dead.


I wont dignify you with a proper reply, as that just descends this into a slanging match - which is not what it is!

As for speaking ill of the dead... there are lots of dead out there that people are happy to speak ill of, so why should she be an exception?


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

I have to say even tho I don't live in Britain and therefore deal with the same problems I have to say I'm well shocked at people opinions and lost a lot of respect for members.


----------



## Phoolf

wind1 said:


> I would on a public forum yes, and I can't speak for anyone else but I am certainly not showing a lack of respect for those who suffered


You don't think it's disrespectful to think people should 'just leave it' or pretend not to be happy when someone who ruined so many lives is dead - I wonder if you tell murder victims families not to rejoice when their families killers go down or die - Got to respect the dead after all - right


----------



## Starlite

JAChihuahua said:


> I wont dignify you with a proper reply, as that just descends this into a slanging match - which is not what it is!
> 
> As for speaking ill of the dead... *there are lots of dead out there that people are happy to speak ill of,* so why should she be an exception?


we should rail it in a bit. Apparently Hitler was a really nice guy. . :ihih:


----------



## Magnus

Burrowzig said:


> And she was so close to Pinochet.


Chile's radar stations during the Falklands War saved thousands of British lives. We owed him. In real life (as against the theoretical world) you sometimes have to be friendly with people you'd rather not be for the greater good. It's called politics.


----------



## tincan

Starlite said:


> Ding Dong the bitch is dead!
> 
> Parties on the streets!


........

Poor taste Starlite ..... would be better placed on the other thread amongst the rest of the guff being spewed forth ...


----------



## Phoolf

Magnus said:


> So you can dish it out but you can't take it.
> 
> I think you have the immaturity thing well covered.
> 
> Grow up and don't speak ill of the dead.


I suppose you'll say the same when Mick Philpott or Ian Huntley die then - got to respect the dead!!

Blood is on that witches hands just like they're on Camerons


----------



## JANICE199

Magnus said:


> Do you actually believe any of the total ******** you write on here?


*LMFAO is it really that bad, or is it you just don't like the truth? Either way your opinion of me means nothing.*


----------



## jenny armour

what amazes me is if she had been a he, would there be so many people who hated her. if she had been a man, she would have been one of the many male prime ministers we have had and probably forgotten about.
no I didn't agree with a lot of what she did, but boy she had balls sorry b...s which a lot of male prime ministers never seem to have


----------



## Starlite

tincan said:


> ........
> 
> Poor taste Starlite ..... would be better placed on the other thread amongst the rest of the guff being spewed forth ...


Not really, there ARE parties tonight and a few planned. I know of a fair few here and in Ireland that have kicked off already.

She brought the country and many lives to dust, Id have handed here personally to the Devil had I had the option. Her own kids didnt even want anything to do with her!


----------



## Nicky10

:yesnod: Margaret Thatcher killed millions of her own people because a voice in her head told her they were betraying her and caused a famine in a whole country or killed 6 million people because they were an inferior race :Yawn:. Totally on the same level as Stalin or Hitler.


----------



## Phoolf

I wonder how many people who supposedly 'respect the dead' also chime in on threads about people saying they should hang or 'bring back the death penalty' etc 

Shocking double standards


----------



## Colliebarmy

Kirkland said:


> sold off half the UK gold reserve when gold was at it's lowest price in 20 years at $252 per ounce..... gold is now worth over $1000 per ounce.





> Between 1999 and 2002 Brown sold 60% of the UK's gold reserves shortly before gold entered a protracted bull market, since nicknamed by dealers as Brown Bottom.
> 
> *The official reason for selling the gold reserves was to reduce the portfolio risk of the UK's reserves by diversifying away from gold. *
> 
> The UK eventually sold about 395 tons of gold over 17 auctions from July 1999 to March 2002, at an average price of about US$275 per ounce, *raising approximately US$3.5 billion*. By 2011, that quantity of gold *would be worth over $19 billion*, leading to Brown's decision to sell the gold being widely criticised.


Gold is the one true constant world wide, there is only a small amount (171,300 tonnes) has been produced in the history of mankind, why is Fort Knox inside the biggest US army base in the world, a country is only worth its gold reserves and squinty sold 60% of ours off cheap

who bung him, who bought it....


----------



## Phoolf

Colliebarmy said:


> Gold is the one true constant world wide, there is only a small amount (171,300 tonnes) has been produced in the history of mankind, why is Fort Knox inside the biggest US army base in the world, a country is only worth its gold reserves and squinty sold 60% of ours off cheap
> 
> who bung him, who bought it....


And how much gold is in Fort Knox exactly

Oh yeah that's right - you haven't a clue :lol:


----------



## Julesky

Colliebarmy said:


> Gold is the one true constant world wide, there is only a small amount (171,300 tonnes) has been produced in the history of mankind, why is Fort Knox inside the biggest US army base in the world, *a country is only worth its gold reserves *and squinty sold 60% of ours off cheap
> 
> who bung him, who bought it....


The bit in bold??? WHAT?
Water and fertile land is probably the greatest commodity a country is worth. Both are limited resources and also finite.

We can have all the gold in the world- but if no one wants to trade with us- we can't very well eat it can we.


----------



## wind1

Phoolf said:


> You don't think it's disrespectful to think people should 'just leave it' or pretend not to be happy when someone who ruined so many lives is dead - I wonder if you tell murder victims families not to rejoice when their families killers go down or die - Got to respect the dead after all - right


I'm not asking anyone to pretend not to be happy or even not to post their dislike, it is the disgusting vile way in which some are expressing themselves that I find disrespectful.


----------



## Phoolf

Julesky said:


> The bit in bold??? WHAT?
> Water and fertile land is probably the greatest commodity a country is worth. Both are limited resources and also finite.
> 
> We can have all the gold in the world- but if no one wants to trade with us- we can't very well eat it can we.


Let us not forget oil - the blessed black gold that Blair loved so much he killed thousands of innocents over


----------



## Julesky

Should add to that- it's difficult for people who live in a big city (cough-politicians-cough) to appreciate where their food and drinks come from- not from industry- from natural resources- buck stops with them- and you can bet your ass when they start to run out all the gold in fort knox ain't gonna persuade a country to give theirs to another


----------



## Phoolf

wind1 said:


> I'm not asking anyone to pretend not to be happy or even not to post their dislike, it is the disgusting vile way in which some are expressing themselves that I find disrespectful.


So again - I suppose you will say the same when an infamous murdered dies in prison

Thought not

Perhaps have some respect for the thousands of families who are celebrating today now that she's finally kicked it - for the misery she caused - for the deaths she covered up - for those she didn't give two hoots about


----------



## jenny armour

gem88 said:


> i agree. yes she made mistakes, yes she screwed the country but for a woman to do half of what she did she has to be admired to some extent
> 
> i'm too young to know first hand what she did and completely understand why she's despised but as you said, if our MP's now had half the guts/balls/courage she did we wouldnt be in this mess now. or at least not as big a one
> 
> *ETA just realised i was 2 when John Major became PM i didnt realise she was PM for that long*


she was the longest serving and only woman prime minster to date


----------



## nutty

Phoolf said:


> And how much gold is in Fort Knox exactly
> 
> Oh yeah that's right - you haven't a clue :lol:


Ummm.... 5,046.3 metric tons?


----------



## Phoolf

jenny armour said:


> she was the longest serving and only woman prime minster to date


So what  You think she can be forgiven for being a woman - you think someone who tried their best to act as masculine and as heartless as possible does the female cause any good


----------



## Sacrechat

JANICE199 said:


> *Wasn't that Norman Tebbit?*


It might have been, I can't remember. I thought it was MT but it might have been Norman Tebbit. I know it was all part and parcel of the Tory policy.


----------



## Phoolf

nutty said:


> Ummm.... 5,046.3 metric tons?


Oh really - got pictures - got proof

Nope

Nobody knows what's in there - it does America good to say they have it though


----------



## hazel pritchard

JANICE199 said:


> *I never had a good word for the woman while she was alive, i sure as hell am not going to be a hypocrite and praise her now she['s dead. Yep i'm one that's proud to show my true colours.
> I wonder how many actually lived under her iron fist.*


I did , i was a newly wed to a serving soldier, we had £7 per week to live on, when MT came to power she raised the wages of the Armed Forces to a living wage for the job they were doing, as she kept her promise to give them a yearly wage rise, i know some will say as they do today about our troops that they "are not forced to join up" but at least she gave them respect, she didnt cut their pension as goverments have done since , neither did she kick so many troops out of a job. 
R I P MT, xx


----------



## haeveymolly

There will always be people that thought she did a lot of good, she was voted in 3 times. 

Cant blame anyone for being for her, i was brought up conservative and things for my dad was at its best when conservative was in power which obviously during the time i was growing up benefited me.

For whatever reason [eople have for disliking her, i think the things ive read on here and facebook it absolutely shocking and disrespectful, i could never imagine myself hating anyone enough to say such things, i find it very sad.


----------



## Kirkland

Julesky said:


> Should add to that- it's difficult for people who live in a big city (cough-politicians-cough) to appreciate where their food and drinks come from- not from industry- from natural resources- buck stops with them- and you can bet your ass when they start to run out all the gold in fort knox ain't gonna persuade a country to give theirs to another


Yeah but my original post about the gold was that what Gordon Brown did was wrong. Of course natural resources are very important and investment in them are key but we didn't have to sell off half our gold for record low prices and it defies all economic logic.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Phoolf said:


> So again - I suppose you will say the same when an infamous murdered dies in prison
> 
> Thought not
> 
> Perhaps have some respect for the thousands of families who are celebrating today now that she's finally kicked it - for the misery she caused - for the deaths she covered up - for those she didn't give two hoots about


Just curious but where is the evidence to support these facts. I don't believe in the death penelity and I wouldn't dance on anyone's grave no matter who they were


----------



## jenny armour

Waterlily said:


> *ponders if hitler had of developed dementia and started dribbling, would he get sympathy too.


perhaps you didn't read your history regarding hitler, not quite the same as the history of Margaret thatcher


----------



## Phoolf

> Wouldn't be cheaper to bring back hanging instead of the tax payer having to pay for prisoners (murders) to live the life of Riley in prison. Perhaps the government should consider this to help the country get out of debt.





> If they are guilty, with absolutely no doubt, then they should hung within the month.





> I wasn't talking about death row, the system used to work in the UK that if without a doubt you were guilty you were sent to the gallows within a few days or a month later, no messing around on death row like America do. Now though they have human rights, more rights than their children had, and they get to live in luxury whilst we struggle to make ends meet on the outside world to keep this scum in prison. It would be cheaper to give them a summary execution.


Sanctity of life and respect for the dead

Yeah right :dita:


----------



## JAChihuahua

haeveymolly said:


> There will always be people that thought she did a lot of good, she was voted in 3 times.
> 
> Cant blame anyone for being for her, i was brought up conservative and things for my dad was at its best when conservative was in power which obviously during the time i was growing up benefited me.
> 
> For whatever reason [eople have for disliking her, i think the things ive read on here and facebook it absolutely shocking and disrespectful, i could never imagine myself hating anyone enough to say such things, i find it very sad.


You have the right to your own views, I wonder though.... would you blame the family of a murder victim for hating the murderer?

Well that is EXACTLY how much hate I hold for this woman. The difference here is that its not just one family or one individual that holds that hate, its big enough chunk of the population that feel the same way that its become rather public.


----------



## Spellweaver

I extend to her as much respect and compassion as she extended to my father, husband, brothers, cousins and friends who were miners or steelworkers fighting to earn a decent wage to keep their families alive. 

Her policies, ideals and beliefs were always in direct contradiction to mine and to pretend otherwise just because she has died would be hypocritical.


----------



## JAChihuahua

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Just curious but where is the evidence to support these facts. I don't believe in the death penelity and I wouldn't dance on anyone's grave no matter who they were


I dont believe in the death penalty either (although I would prefer prisons were a more horrible place to be), but I would dance on her grave!


----------



## Phoolf

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Just curious but where is the evidence to support these facts. I don't believe in the death penelity and I wouldn't dance on anyone's grave no matter who they were


I won't name names but here's a posts from someone who is upset by the 'disrespect' about the witch who also happen to think the state should kill people



> I think where there is no shadow of a doubt that a person has commited murder ect then yes the death penalty could have a place, what place have these people got in society or our prisons, if in prison we are the ones paying for them, if in society as in done their time and then allowed to walk free the chances are we are still paying for them.


Perhaps being Canadian you mightn't understand why she is such a divisive witch but as they say: Sorrow in the South - Party in the North


----------



## Phoolf

JAChihuahua said:


> I dont believe in the death penalty either (although I would prefer prisons were a more horrible place to be), but I would dance on her grave!


Not sure where she'll be buried but if it's back home Grantham it's only a stones throw away from here


----------



## chichi

Perhaps those members who are celebrating the death of this elderly Mother/Grandmother should open a thread to share their lack of respect and rejoice together in the death of an old lady

That way...those of us that are respectful of the dead can AVOID the thread.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

JAChihuahua said:


> I dont believe in the death penalty either (although I would prefer prisons were a more horrible place to be), but I would dance on her grave!


Well good luck to you, I'm sure you'll enjoy your prison stay



Phoolf said:


> I won't name names but here's a posts from someone who is upset by the 'disrespect' about the witch who also happen to think the state should kill people
> 
> Perhaps being Canadian you mightn't understand why she is such a divisive witch but as they say: Sorrow in the South - Party in the North


Yes but I'd like to see some evidence of being dying etc that your so called claiming has happened?


----------



## JAChihuahua

chichi said:


> Perhaps those members who are celebrating the death of this elderly Mother/Grandmother should open a thread to share their lack of respect and rejoice together in the death of an old lady
> 
> That way...those of us that are respectful of the dead can AVOID the thread.


you too can avoid the comments by putting myself and others who's feelings contradict yours on ignore.


----------



## Burrowzig

jenny armour said:


> she was the longest serving and only woman prime minster to date


Only *British* woman Prime Minister - other countries have had plenty.


----------



## Phoolf

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Yes but I'd like to see some evidence of being dying etc that your so called claiming has happened?


You know - If I could be bothered I'd explain but I don't think you'd truly understand the pain and suffering she caused - She ruined the working class - She had contempt for the North - she conspired to cover up the dead of the ninety six dead at Hillsborough - She had people killed in Northern Ireland and had no heart about the hunger strikes or the occupation

Evil woman


----------



## haeveymolly

JAChihuahua said:


> You have the right to your own views, I wonder though.... would you blame the family of a murder victim for hating the murderer?
> 
> Well that is EXACTLY how much hate I hold for this woman. The difference here is that its not just one family or one individual that holds that hate, its big enough chunk of the population that feel the same way that its become rather public.


I value my family a lot more than anything mrs thatcher could have done, i could never imagine anything coming even close to a member of my family been murdered. so when i say i cant imagine hating anyone that much a murderer of my family wasnt a thought.


----------



## chichi

JAChihuahua said:


> you too can avoid the comments by putting myself and others who's feelings contradict yours on ignore.


I am quite Capable of using the ignore button without instruction...thanks.

Just because there is an "ignore" facility...doesnt entitle members to spew out vile comments using the "put me on ignore" comment as if that makes it okay.


----------



## tincan

Phoolf said:


> Not sure where she'll be buried but if it's back home Grantham it's only a stones throw away from here


.....

That is utterly disgusting ..... and uncalled for , mind you small minds , blinkered eyes , makes for the minority ... whatever would we do without the likes of you all


----------



## Phoolf

haeveymolly said:


> I value my family a lot more than anything mrs thatcher could have done, i could never imagine anything coming even close to a member of my family been murdered.


How about if a family member was killed and she covered it up - What if she conspired with the powers that be and said nothing when they got OBE's for the part in a cover up of your family members death - What if it took 20 odd years for the truth to come to light

I hope Anne Williams is happy today despite her suffering


----------



## Phoolf

tincan said:


> .....
> 
> That is utterly disgusting ..... and uncalled for , mind you small minds , blinkered eyes , makes for the minority ... whatever would we do without the likes of you all


A minority indeed - Go to Liverpool and see the minority

Perhaps you'd like public flogging or hanging for 'the likes' of me - then you can respect the dead

Hypocrite


----------



## JANICE199

Phoolf said:


> Not sure where she'll be buried but if it's back home Grantham it's only a stones throw away from here


*According to the radio she will be cremated.*


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Phoolf said:


> You know - If I could be bothered I'd explain but I don't think you'd truly understand the pain and suffering she caused - She ruined the working class - She had contempt for the North - she conspired to cover up the dead of the ninety six dead at Hillsborough - She had people killed in Northern Ireland and had no heart about the hunger strikes or the occupation
> 
> Evil woman


Ok but I've read up about her in the past and nothing that your saying has ever come up in searches or even debates in class about her. Which is why curious as to where this information can be found and the factss.

My dad dislikes Steven Harper and my gran hated him for raising taxes and for cutting my dads benefits etc but I would lose respect for them if they said anything like people on here are saying.

The way I see it this is what goes on with governments in every country, so unless you can buy your own tropical island. Suck it up.


----------



## Phoolf

JANICE199 said:


> *According to the radio she will be cremated.*


If I was religious I'd be happy in the hope she'll be cremated for thousands of years to come


----------



## Phoolf

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Ok but I've read up about her in the past and nothing that your saying has ever come up in searches or even debates in class about her. Which is why curious as to where this information can be found and the factss.
> 
> My dad dislikes Steven Harper and my gran hated him for raising taxes and for cutting my dads benefits etc but I would lose respect for them if they said anything like people on here are saying.
> 
> The way I see it this is what goes on with governments in every country, so unless you can buy your own tropical island. Suck it up.


Perhaps you could tell the families of those who killed themselves because of her cruelty to suck it up


----------



## Colliebarmy

Phoolf said:


> And how much gold is in Fort Knox exactly
> 
> Oh yeah that's right - you haven't a clue :lol:


The United States Bullion Depository, often known as Fort Knox, is a fortified vault building located adjacent to Fort Knox, Kentucky, used to store a large portion of United States official gold reserves and occasionally other precious items belonging or entrusted to the federal government.

The United States Bullion Depository holds 4,578 metric tons (5,046.3 short tons) of gold bullion (147.2 million oz. troy). This is roughly 3 percent of all the gold ever refined throughout human history.


----------



## tincan

Phoolf said:


> A minority indeed - Go to Liverpool and see the minority
> 
> Perhaps you'd like public flogging or hanging for 'the likes' of me - then you can respect the dead
> 
> Hypocrite


..... Calm down .... you will give your self a burst blood vessel at this rate


----------



## Starlite

tincan said:


> .....
> 
> That is utterly disgusting ..... and uncalled for , mind you small minds , blinkered eyes , makes for the minority ... whatever would we do without the likes of you all


the minority, are you reading a different thread? :lol:


----------



## MoggyBaby

Spellweaver said:


> *I extend to her as much respect and compassion as she extended to my father, husband, brothers, cousins and friends who were miners or steelworkers fighting to earn a decent wage to keep their families alive. *
> 
> Her policies, ideals and beliefs were always in direct contradiction to mine and to pretend otherwise just because she has died would be hypocritical.


These would be the same people striking every five minutes and producing shoddy, low-grade work because they thought good hard work was beneath them. The same people who didn't realise that there was world-wide compition for the same commodities and the world-wide competition was producing them cheaper and better. These would be the same people holding the country to ransom over pay instead of actually knuckling down and doing their best to make sure they WERE the best and to ensure that the world wanted to buy British.

The Unions and their ludicrous demands ruined this country. The only thing Maggie did 'wrong' was to stand up against them and tell them to get stuffed - the UK was no longer going to be held to ransom by these people.

I grew up under Thatcher, I worked under Thatcher and, I'll tell you for free, I had more money in my purse under Thatcher!!!

When Labour got in, my wages increased and so did my outgoings. I actually have less disposable cash now than I did 20 yrs ago. Labour got in and taxes went up -that is history repeating itself.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Phoolf said:


> Perhaps you could tell the families of those who killed themselves because of her cruelty to suck it up


no facts then? can you support your claims?


----------



## Kirkland

> According to the radio she will be cremated.


I believe her wishes are for her ashes to buried next to her husband in the cemetery at Royal Chelsea Hospital, though I can't remember, I read about it a couple of years ago.


----------



## Magnus

JANICE199 said:


> *LMFAO is it really that bad, or is it you just don't like the truth? Either way your opinion of me means nothing.*


The truth!!   

Now that's funny. Mind you, I should have expected comedy from someone who thinks Gordon Brown was a good chancellor.


----------



## Colliebarmy

moggybaby said:


> these would be the same people striking every five minutes and producing shoddy, low-grade work because they thought good hard work was beneath them. The same people who didn't realise that there was world-wide compition for the same commodities and the world-wide competition was producing them cheaper and better. These would be the same people holding the country to ransom over pay instead of actually knuckling down and doing their best to make sure they were the best and to ensure that the world wanted to buy british.
> 
> The unions and their ludicrous demands ruined this country. The only thing maggie did 'wrong' was to stand up against them and tell them to get stuffed - the uk was no longer going to be held to ransom by these people.
> 
> I grew up under thatcher, i worked under thatcher and, i'll tell you for free, i had more money in my purse under thatcher!!!
> 
> When labour got in, my wages increased and so did my outgoings. I actually have less disposable cash now than i did 20 yrs ago. Labour got in and taxes went up -that is history repeating itself.


*hear hear....*


----------



## jenny armour

Phoolf said:


> So what  You think she can be forgiven for being a woman - you think someone who tried their best to act as masculine and as heartless as possible does the female cause any good


actually I was saying she was the only woman and longest serving prime minister to date, literally, but having said that if she had been a man, I bet people would be more forgiving about what she did. if she had backed down, there is no way that she would have been pm for 11 years


----------



## Phoolf

Colliebarmy said:


> The United States Bullion Depository, often known as Fort Knox, is a fortified vault building located adjacent to Fort Knox, Kentucky, used to store a large portion of United States official gold reserves and occasionally other precious items belonging or entrusted to the federal government.
> 
> The United States Bullion Depository holds 4,578 metric tons (5,046.3 short tons) of gold bullion (147.2 million oz. troy). This is roughly 3 percent of all the gold ever refined throughout human history.


You know wikipedia isn't a source right :lol:


----------



## tincan

Starlite said:


> the minority, are you reading a different thread? :lol:


........ nope just this one 

same old same old ...... yep i do feel within this thread it's a minority , just my observation


----------



## JANICE199

MoggyBaby said:


> These would be the same people striking every five minutes and producing shoddy, low-grade work because they thought good hard work was beneath them. The same people who didn't realise that there was world-wide compition for the same commodities and the world-wide competition was producing them cheaper and better. These would be the same people holding the country to ransom over pay instead of actually knuckling down and doing their best to make sure they WERE the best and to ensure that the world wanted to buy British.
> 
> The Unions and their ludicrous demands ruined this country. The only thing Maggie did 'wrong' was to stand up against them and tell them to get stuffed - the UK was no longer going to be held to ransom by these people.
> 
> I grew up under Thatcher, I worked under Thatcher and, I'll tell you for free, I had more money in my purse under Thatcher!!!
> 
> When Labour got in, my wages increased and so did my outgoings. I actually have less disposable cash now than I did 20 yrs ago. Labour got in and taxes went up -that is history repeating itself.


*All those that went out on strike made working conditions better for people. Now who is taking away all they fought for? The same, the tories.*


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Phoolf said:


> Perhaps you could tell the families of those who killed themselves because of her cruelty to suck it up


I'd first like to see evidence supporting these claims, I don't take just one persons opion as evidence and fact sorry. There are a lot of contributing factors when it comes to taking someone's life.


----------



## Starlite

jenny armour said:


> actually I was saying she was the only woman and longest serving prime minister to date, literally, but having said that if she had been a man, I bet people would be more forgiving about what she did. if she had backed down, there is no way that she would have been pm for 11 years


Her gender is irrelevant. Tony Blair is a man from what ive been told and hes still a murdering delusional bastard


----------



## Phoolf

Colliebarmy said:


> no facts then? can you support your claims?


Laughable

I expect no better from a contempable man like you


----------



## Phoolf

JANICE199 said:


> *All those that went out on strike made working conditions better for people. Now who is taking away all they fought for? The same, the tories.*


I suppose the suffragettes were just trouble makers


----------



## Phoolf

tincan said:


> ........ nope just this one
> 
> same old same old ...... yep i do feel within this thread it's a minority , just my observation


Location: Somerset

I can see why you feel it's a minority


----------



## JANICE199

Magnus said:


> The truth!!
> 
> Now that's funny. Mind you, I should have expected comedy from someone who thinks Gordon Brown was a good chancellor.


*Like it or not, he WAS a good chancellor. But hey, we are ALL entitled to our opinions.*


----------



## Colliebarmy

Phoolf said:


> Perhaps you could tell the families of those who killed themselves because of her cruelty to suck it up


Thatcher was PM fron 75-97, total (M+F) suicide rates were lower when she left No 10


----------



## Phoolf

Colliebarmy said:


> Thatcher was PM fron 75-97, suicide rates were lower when she left No 10


What's that - a spike in the suicide rate of males from 75 to the mid 80s

Colour my shocked!!!

ETA: LOL til 97 was it :lol:

Try 1990

ETAD: Oh I see you edited your image- perhaps you realised your mistake :lol:


----------



## Colliebarmy

Phoolf said:


> Laughable
> 
> I expect no better from a contempable man like you


then you will get no better


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *All those that went out on strike made working conditions better for people. Now who is taking away all they fought for? The same, the tories.*


Please...Janice...when will you wake up...smell the coffee...and see that the Torys arent to blame for everything!

You have to give balanced argument if you want to be taken seriously.


----------



## JANICE199

Phoolf said:


> I suppose the suffragettes were just trouble makers


*Sorry but i'm confused by your post.*


----------



## Mark Walden

JANICE199 said:


> *Like it or not, he WAS a good chancellor. But hey, we are ALL entitled to our opinions.*


Not trying to cause a stir, but didn't he sell ALL of our gold at a fraction of it's price? :001_huh:


----------



## Colliebarmy

Phoolf said:


> What's that - a spike in the suicide rate of males from 75 to the mid 80s
> 
> Colour my shocked!!!
> 
> ETA: LOL til 97 was it :lol:
> 
> Try 1990


she got the rates down, be thankfull


----------



## Phoolf

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry but i'm confused by your post.*


I was implying that those who fight for rights are awful people - in essence agreeing with you


----------



## Colliebarmy

Mark Walden said:


> Not trying to cause a stir, but didn't he sell ALL of our gold at a fraction of it's price? :001_huh:


no, only 60%.....


----------



## Phoolf

Colliebarmy said:


> she got the rates down, be thankfull


Your very helpful graphic says otherwise

:lol:


----------



## haeveymolly

MoggyBaby said:


> These would be the same people striking every five minutes and producing shoddy, low-grade work because they thought good hard work was beneath them. The same people who didn't realise that there was world-wide compition for the same commodities and the world-wide competition was producing them cheaper and better. These would be the same people holding the country to ransom over pay instead of actually knuckling down and doing their best to make sure they WERE the best and to ensure that the world wanted to buy British.
> 
> The Unions and their ludicrous demands ruined this country. The only thing Maggie did 'wrong' was to stand up against them and tell them to get stuffed - the UK was no longer going to be held to ransom by these people.
> 
> I grew up under Thatcher, I worked under Thatcher and, I'll tell you for free, I had more money in my purse under Thatcher!!!
> 
> When Labour got in, my wages increased and so did my outgoings. I actually have less disposable cash now than I did 20 yrs ago. Labour got in and taxes went up -that is history repeating itself.


Just what i was thinking, couldnt have put anywhere near as good as this, repped, brilliant post!!!
like them all she made mistakes but she did a lot of good for this country.


----------



## Spellweaver

MoggyBaby said:


> These would be the same people striking every five minutes and producing shoddy, low-grade work because they thought good hard work was beneath them.


You have spoken eloquently against people who are bad-mouthing Thatcher on this thread.

Please be good enough to extend that same sensibility to people like my father, who worked very hard all his life down the mine, sometimes having to work a double and even a treble shift in order to put food on the table because his wages were so low.

He died at 60 with his lungs shot to pieces by the conditions in which he worked.

Now he WAS someone who deserved your compassion, and did not deserve the lies you state above. (I know your remarks were not directed directly about my father, but he was a miner, worked hard, and produced excellent work just as his fellow miners did, and your remarks are just as hurtful to their families as some remarks on this thread would be to Thatcher's family))

This compassion works both ways - you extend it to a leader, but refuse to extend it to a normal worker.

Now that speaks volumes.


----------



## JAChihuahua

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I'd first like to see evidence supporting these claims, I don't take just one persons opion as evidence and fact sorry. There are a lot of contributing factors when it comes to taking someone's life.


Just a short list, and google can find you the sources.

Belgrano
Falklands
Hillsborough
Miners (and steel workers, dockers etc etc etc etc etc) - life expectancy went DOWN during the strike years and the years immediatly following. Suicide went UP
Apartheid

The buck stopped with her!


----------



## Phoolf

Colliebarmy said:


> then you will get no better


I don't think anybody ever will from the likes of you and what I've seen your keyboard spout


----------



## Colliebarmy

Phoolf said:


> Your very helpful graphic says otherwise


i like to help

figures fell didnt they?, thats why the ends lower than the start...

if they peaked in 1990 it was because we lost MT as leader...


----------



## Phoolf

Colliebarmy said:


> i like to help


Shame you're helping the opposing side of your argument :lol:


----------



## Mark Walden

Colliebarmy said:


> no, only 60%.....


Oh.. then thats okay then? 

I saw an article of how much that gold would be worth now. Jaw dropping, unbelievable.


----------



## suewhite

Mark Walden said:


> Not trying to cause a stir, but didn't he sell ALL of our gold at a fraction of it's price? :001_huh:


Sure did,also tried to nick the 10% tax off the low paid and then when he thought he was off mic called a lady a bigott for asking a simple question,lovely man:sneaky2:


----------



## Lel

Surprised this thread is still going TBH given some of the vile comments made.

Of course not everyone agrees about political matters, but for people to say that they rejoice now she is dead?!  This is a woman who has not been in a position of power for over 20 years. Why rejoice that she is dead?! Why not rejoice in 1990 when she was no longer PM?! How are you better now with her being dead? what difference does this make to your life now? 
I just find these sort of comments bizarre....


----------



## tincan

Phoolf said:


> Location: Somerset
> 
> I can see why you feel it's a minority


......

Do some homework eh .... I'm actually a Northerner thru and thru .... moved here for work , as you do to survive .....

Working class background , working class family .... 

So don't try the North/ South divide stuff with me it does not wash


----------



## Phoolf

tincan said:


> ......
> 
> Do some homework eh .... I'm actually a Northerner thru and thru .... moved here for work , as you do to survive .....
> 
> Working class background , working class family ....
> 
> So don't try the North/ South divide stuff with me it does not wash


I'm sure your family are proud you're part of the love in

PS You can thank maggie for the great divide


----------



## JAChihuahua

Spellweaver said:


> You have spoken eloquently against people who are bad-mouthing Thatcher on this thread.
> 
> Please be good enough to extend that same sensibility to people like my father, who worked very hard all his life down the mine, sometimes having to work a double and even a treble shift in order to put food on the table because his wages were so low.
> 
> He died at 60 with his lungs shot to pieces by the conditions in which he worked.
> 
> Now he WAS someone who deserved your compassion, and did not deserve the lies you state above. (I know your remarks were not directed directly about my father, but he was a miner, worked hard, and produced excellent work just as his fellow miners did, and your remarks are just as hurtful to their families as some remarks on this thread would be to Thatcher's family))
> 
> This compassion works both ways - you extend it to a leader, but refuse to extend it to a normal worker.
> 
> Now that speaks volumes.


You can add 2 uncles who were miners to that list too, a grandfather who took his own life after his farm was destroyed during the chernobyl crisis and he was offered no compensation to get back on his feet, and another uncle who lost his life in the Falklands. 3 Children left without fathers, families torn apart and whole communities destroyed.


----------



## Kirkland

JANICE199 said:


> *Like it or not, he WAS a good chancellor. But hey, we are ALL entitled to our opinions.*


How was he a good chancellor, can you back that up with specific policies? Also can you explain why he sold half the gold at rockbottom prices. He was also so arrogant that he claimed that he had abolished boom and bust. Also he may not of caused the financial crisis but he didn't help matters by being an advocate of further banking deregulation. So can you please explain what exactly makes him a 'good chancellor'.


----------



## tincan

Phoolf said:


> I'm sure your family are proud you're part of the love in
> 
> PS You can thank maggie for the great divide


..... so why are you promoting it still ???


----------



## Mark Walden

Kirkland said:


> How was he a good chancellor, can you back that up with specific policies? Also can you explain why he sold half the gold at rockbottom prices. He was also so arrogant that he claimed that he had abolished boom and bust. Also he may not of caused the financial crisis but he didn't help matters by being an advocate of further banking deregulation. So can you please explain what exactly makes him a 'good chancellor'.


Not trying to disagree with you, but I came up with one thing. He kept the Pound Sterling and didn't change to the Euro. Otherwise, he's been pretty hopeless.


----------



## Sacrechat

If it wasn't for the trade unions:

Coalmining Accidents and Deaths - Raleys - Maps, Poems and Searchable Databases for Mining in the UK

How many more would have died?


----------



## jenny armour

Starlite said:


> Her gender is irrelevant. Tony Blair is a man from what ive been told and hes still a murdering delusional bastard


is it, sounds to me like Margaret thatcher was the worse pm to you regardless of gender


----------



## Kirkland

Mark Walden said:


> Not trying to disagree with you, but I came up with one thing. He kept the Pound Sterling and didn't change to the Euro. Otherwise, he's been pretty hopeless.


Gordon Brown was actually more pro-Europe than Tony Blair it was probably more Ed Balls who kept us out of the Euro.

John Major and Ed Balls top list of five Britons who kept UK out of euro | Politics | guardian.co.uk

Even if he did keep us out of the Euro he made up for it as PM by signing the Treaty of Lisbon without giving the people a referendum.


----------



## jenny armour

Colliebarmy said:


> Thatcher was PM fron 75-97, total (M+F) suicide rates were lower when she left No 10


sorry she was pm from 1979 to 1990


----------



## nutty

In the few short weeks I have been a member of PF I have witnessed some of the most vile postings that I have ever seen on a forum. Out and out nastiness.


----------



## Sandysmum

I'm not a fan of Maggie, never have been, but I think that all the talk of throwing parties and dancing on her grave is in bad taste. Whatever you think of her, there is a family who is grieving. Why not leave them alone, let them lay her to rest and then throw your parties if you feel the need.


----------



## 1290423

Mark Walden said:


> Oh.. then thats okay then?
> 
> I saw an article of how much that gold would be worth now. Jaw dropping, unbelievable.


we don't need reminding which muppet sold that


----------



## 1290423

RIP Margaret Thatcher -The Iron Lady 

You will certainly never be forgotton

if some of these weak ar*ed muppets in power now had half the balls you had we'd be laffing


----------



## jenny armour

nutty said:


> In the few short weeks I have been a member of PF I have witnessed some of the most vile postings that I have ever seen on a forum. Out and out nastiness.


don't worry they will probably get bored and go away, but it makes interesting and exciting reading while they are here


----------



## ClaireLouise

Some people should really be ashamed! I have read some terrible comments on this thread.  

RIP Margaret Thatcher


----------



## JANICE199

jenny armour said:


> don't worry they will probably get bored and go away, but it makes interesting and exciting reading while they are here


*lol this lady isn't going anywhere.*


----------



## nutty

jenny armour said:


> don't worry they will probably get bored and go away, but it makes interesting and exciting reading while they are here


That may be so, but This isnt getting my other sock knitted


----------



## JordanRose

I'm sure most people get fed up of me piping up, but I'll share my viewpoint here:


For all I find it distasteful to celebrate a death; any death of anybody or anything- no matter what the circumstances- I have to say I find the idea of a state funeral wounding to all of those affected by Thatcherism and the legacy it left. (Admittedly not my era).

Nevertheless, most grieving families are left devastated- even more so- by the sheer amount of money and time needed to plan the burial of their loved ones. 

The Thatchers are not a struggling family, but one with great wealth. 

If they wish to be honourable, they will pay for her burial themselves. They will put the money back into the 'kitty' as it were, to help society. 

Somehow, I doubt that will happen.


----------



## jenny armour

JANICE199 said:


> *lol this lady isn't going anywhere.*


great I can keep reading lol



nutty said:


> That may be so, but This isnt getting my other sock knitted


must be hard to knit and read pf at the same time, never mind keep going lol


----------



## Goblin

JANICE199 said:


> *All those that went out on strike made working conditions better for people. Now who is taking away all they fought for? The same, the tories.*


Yep, Scargill got a 1.5m flat. Miners got... but then the fact the miners got what they did was all Thatchers fault for standing up to them.

As nobody has said otherwise, they obviously believe, coal mines would still be going now as major industries which were profitable. Even if they did close, say because coal wasn't profitable with cheaper alternatives or sources available, other industries would be appear encouraged by the fact the unions would dictate exactly what went on.

Strikes drove up inflation and unions pushed the idea of we deserve and will get more, not what was practical. Unions made sure pay rises were given which sold well to their members, product prices went up to cover it. Then nobody, especially outside the UK wanted to buy the items. Costs reductions requirements meant some losing jobs but unions didn't allow that and would fight against it.. strike time... whole firm collapses. That was the unions of the time.

Unions had and in my mind still have their place but they went too far and needed to be reigned in.


----------



## nutty

jenny armour said:


> great I can keep reading lol
> 
> must be hard to knit and read pf at the same time, never mind keep going lol


Yes...thats why only one sock done so far!


----------



## tincan

nutty said:


> In the few short weeks I have been a member of PF I have witnessed some of the most vile postings that I have ever seen on a forum. Out and out nastiness.


......

Please , please do not let it put you off  .....

It's a really good place to come for help and info ... but sadly as in any other forum it does get heated ... 
There are some really decent folk in here ... honest


----------



## LolaBoo

I would really love for you people that are all not a bad word spoke about the woman to sit down with the miners and familys and extended familys who to this day are still effected by what that woman did and talk to them and see what she did i know of familys destroyed because proud men who worked all their lives were dragged down to a point that they took their own lives, it wasnt just the miners mind you but that is an example of what this so called wonderfull woman and her goverment did, so before you all go calling us who remember and not blinded by what little good she didnt do Morons take a long hard realistic think back and take your blinkers off!


----------



## Colliebarmy

nutty said:


> In the few short weeks I have been a member of PF I have witnessed some of the most vile postings that I have ever seen on a forum. Out and out nastiness.


stick around, this is quite mild for some...


----------



## suewhite

Well I'll say one thing for Maggie she's kept us lot going all day


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Unions had and in my mind still have their place but they went too far and needed to be reigned in.


Oh you don't get me I'm part of the union
You don't get me I'm part of the union
You don't get me I'm part of the union
Till the day I die, till the day I die.

They certainly messed with the wrong broard here!


----------



## MoggyBaby

nutty said:


> That may be so, but This isnt getting my other sock knitted


Getting a cold foot here lady..............


----------



## 1290423

MoggyBaby said:


> Getting a cold foot here lady..............


mines getting itchy! as Hilary would say


----------



## nutty

LolaBoo said:


> I would really love for you people that are all not a bad word spoke about the woman to sit down with the miners and familys and extended familys who to this day are still effected by what that woman did and talk to them and see what she did i know of familys destroyed because proud men who worked all their lives were dragged down to a point that they took their own lives, it wasnt just the miners mind you but that is an example of what this so called wonderfull woman and her goverment did, so before you all go calling us who remember and not blinded by what little good she didnt do Morons take a long hard realistic think back and take your blinkers off!


Just because some PF members are not berating MT or else berating other PF members, it doesnt mean they necessarily uphold all that MT stood for, nor does it necessarily denote their political views. Some people just prefer not to spew out venomous posts left right and centre.


----------



## JAChihuahua

DT said:


> Oh you don't get me I'm part of the union
> You don't get me I'm part of the union
> You don't get me I'm part of the union
> Till the day I die, till the day I die.
> 
> They certainly messed with the wrong broard here!


lol and I am still proud to be a union member!  funny that aint it!


----------



## ladydog

Magnus said:


> Chile's radar stations during the Falklands War saved thousands of British lives. We owed him. In real life (as against the theoretical world) you sometimes have to be friendly with people you'd rather not be for the greater good. It's called politics.


As long as thousands of British lives were saved then it was ok to cosy up to a dictator? What makes British lives more important than Chileans lives? Please do not include me in your " we owed him". I find this offensive.


----------



## 1290423

nutty said:


> Just because some PF members are not berating MT or else berating other PF members, it doesnt mean they necessarily uphold all that MT stood for, nor does it necessarily denote their political views. Some people just prefer not to spew out venomous posts left right and centre.


An excellent post, how anyone can want to celebrate the death of another is beyond me!
Unless it is one of the philpotts of course


----------



## ClaireLouise

LolaBoo said:


> I would really love for you people that are all not a bad word spoke about the woman to sit down with the miners and familys and extended familys who to this day are still effected by what that woman did and talk to them and see what she did i know of familys destroyed because proud men who worked all their lives were dragged down to a point that they took their own lives, it wasnt just the miners mind you but that is an example of what this so called wonderfull woman and her goverment did, so before you all go calling us who remember and not blinded by what little good she didnt do Morons take a long hard realistic think back and take your blinkers off!


No blinkers here. I live in a ex mining town. My Dad and Grandads worked down the pit. My grand parents lost everything around that time. I am not saying she was a "wonderful" woman and that she did no wrong because she did do wrong. However I am not silly enough to think that all changes (good and bad) that happened when Margaret Thatcher was in power were 100% her decision and I dont believe in holding so much hatred towards someone for doing their job. The woman suffered dementia and then a stroke, I think she suffered enough.


----------



## LolaBoo

Im glad the woman is dead i really am and i hope she has fun playing in the devils playground and i hope she dont rest at all !


----------



## 1290423

JAChihuahua said:


> lol and I am still proud to be a union member!  funny that aint it!


You can be a member of any club you like, no skin off my nose and I definitely am not going to lose no sleep over it, I even agree with unions as it happens, they have 'their place' 
But the unions 'then' were getting too big for their boots!


----------



## 1290423

LolaBoo said:


> Im glad the woman is dead i really am and i hope she has fun playing in the devils playground and i hope she dont rest at all !


You really are a rather sad person !


----------



## MissShelley

nutty said:


> Just because some PF members are not berating MT or else berating other PF members, it doesnt mean they necessarily uphold all that MT stood for, nor does it necessarily denote their political views. Some people just prefer not to spew out venomous posts left right and centre.


Exactly my feelings. Some of us have a little more dignity and a respect for other people's views than to lower ourselves to that level


----------



## Zaros

Margaret Thatcher. 

What a truly amazing woman. 

Capable of dividing families and entire communities in life and still every bit as capable from beyond the grave.


----------



## Starlite

DT said:


> An excellent post, how anyone can want to celebrate the death of another is beyond me!
> Unless it is one of the philpotts of course


why are the Philpotts any different than her, they are individuals who made mistakes also, or is it just the MT supporters who can pick and choose who can be mocked


----------



## 1290423

Zaros said:


> Margaret Thatcher.
> 
> What a truly amazing woman.
> 
> Capable of dividing families and entire communities in life and still every bit as capable from beyond the grave.


you forgot the dividing forums bit


----------



## JANICE199

Goblin said:


> Yep, Scargill got a 1.5m flat. Miners got... but then the fact the miners got what they did was all Thatchers fault for standing up to them.
> 
> As nobody has said otherwise, they obviously believe, coal mines would still be going now as major industries which were profitable. Even if they did close, say because coal wasn't profitable with cheaper alternatives or sources available, other industries would be appear encouraged by the fact the unions would dictate exactly what went on.
> 
> Strikes drove up inflation and unions pushed the idea of we deserve and will get more, not what was practical. Unions made sure pay rises were given which sold well to their members, product prices went up to cover it. Then nobody, especially outside the UK wanted to buy the items. Costs reductions requirements meant some losing jobs but unions didn't allow that and would fight against it.. strike time... whole firm collapses. That was the unions of the time.
> 
> Unions had and in my mind still have their place but they went too far and needed to be reigned in.


*I think it has already been said, but i believe if the miners had done their strike in the winter and not the summer they would have broken the government. I may be wrong though.
I cannot for the life of me understand some peoples views. They moan about how this country is going downhill, but then moan about the working folk that stood up to previous governments.
Nowt so strange as folks i guess.*


----------



## Zaros

DT said:


> you forgot the dividing forums bit


No I didn't DT the key word was community as in PF's. :sneaky2:


----------



## 1290423

Starlite said:


> why are the Philpotts any different than her, they are individuals who made mistakes also, or is it just the MT supporters who can pick and choose who can be mocked


MT may have broken a few balls
but she never deliberately set out to murder anyone
Many were just pawns in the game between here and AS 
I am not supporting MT either, just amazed at some of the vile spew being voiced by some!


----------



## Magnus

LolaBoo said:


> Im glad the woman is dead i really am and i hope she has fun playing in the devils playground and i hope she dont rest at all !


Shame on you.


----------



## Goblin

LolaBoo said:


> Morons take a long hard realistic think back and take your blinkers off!


Would you care to answer.. would the coal mines still be open today and be profitable without MT breaking the unions? None of you have answered that yet, let alone being honest with themselves.

Would we have had the wave of foreign investment, lead by Nissan to try to counter the decline of traditional industry? The fact MT traveled to Japan trying to ensure this investment personally, to push for future industry capability is ignored by some with blinkers on.


----------



## 1290423

Anyway
its getting hot in here!
and I have a manifesto to prepare
so goodnight all,


----------



## 1290423

LolaBoo said:


> Im glad the woman is dead i really am and i hope she has fun playing in the devils playground and i hope she dont rest at all !


And I hope karma comes and gets you"!
you are not only sad you are pathetic too!


----------



## MCWillow

JANICE199 said:


> *I think it has already been said, but i believe if the miners had done their strike in the winter and not the summer they would have broken the government. I may be wrong though.
> I cannot for the life of me understand some peoples views. They moan about how this country is going downhill, but then moan about the working folk that stood up to previous governments.
> Nowt so strange as folks i guess.*


I think people are 'moaning' about the fact that other people are rejoicing in the death of another human being.

You (collective you, not personal you) may have disliked, or even hated her policies, but to rejoice in the fact she is dead (over 20 years after she has had any power or voice in how this country is run), and to say you are holding parties and would dance on her grave, IMO, is horrible, nasty, and totally uncalled for.


----------



## Magnus

JANICE199 said:


> *I think it has already been said, but i believe if the miners had done their strike in the winter and not the summer they would have broken the government. I may be wrong though.
> I cannot for the life of me understand some peoples views. They moan about how this country is going downhill, but then moan about the working folk that stood up to previous governments.
> Nowt so strange as folks i guess.*


It was the striking folk that were the problem, the working ones were fine.

This country always goes downhill when a Labour government has successive terms. Unfortunately there are enough ovine Labourites around to allow them to do this on occasion; it does ensure that the following government is unpopular because it always has to make cuts to clear up the mess. 'Twas ever thus.


----------



## JANICE199

*There is an old saying, " we reap what we so ".. MT caused a lot of heartache and i believe people are now finally getting their hatred ( call it what you like) for the woman out of their systems for what she did to them.
Did someone mention KARMA?*
Just to add, when i mentioned karma it wasn't in reply to anyone. it was said tongue in cheek.


----------



## 1290423

JANICE199 said:


> *There is an old saying, " we reap what we so ".. MT caused a lot of heartache and i believe people are now finally getting their hatred ( call it what you like) for the woman out of their systems for what she did to them.
> Did someone mention KARMA?*


Yes I did! I mentioned Karma!


----------



## Bisbow

LolaBoo said:


> Im glad the woman is dead i really am and i hope she has fun playing in the devils playground and i hope she dont rest at all !


That is the most disgusting, vindictive and immature thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## Bisbow

I think I will go now before I say something that I will regret and has me thown of the forum


----------



## JAChihuahua

> News of Margaret Thatcher's death this morning instantly and predictably gave rise to righteous sermons on the evils of speaking ill of her. British Labour MP Tom Watson decreed: "I hope that people on the left of politics respect a family in grief today." Following in the footsteps of Santa Claus, Steve Hynd quickly compiled a list of all the naughty boys and girls "on the left" who dared to express criticisms of the dearly departed Prime Minister, warning that he "will continue to add to this list throughout the day". Former Tory MP Louise Mensch, with no apparent sense of irony, invoked precepts of propriety to announce: "Pygmies of the left so predictably embarrassing yourselves, know this: not a one of your leaders will ever be globally mourned like her."
> 
> This demand for respectful silence in the wake of a public figure's death is not just misguided but dangerous. That one should not speak ill of the dead is arguably appropriate when a private person dies, but it is wildly inappropriate for the death of a controversial public figure, particularly one who wielded significant influence and political power. "Respecting the grief" of Thatcher's family members is appropriate if one is friends with them or attends a wake they organize, but the protocols are fundamentally different when it comes to public discourse about the person's life and political acts. I made this argument at length last year when Christopher Hitchens died and a speak-no-ill rule about him was instantly imposed (a rule he, more than anyone, viciously violated), and I won't repeat that argument today; those interested can read my reasoning here.
> 
> But the key point is this: those who admire the deceased public figure (and their politics) aren't silent at all. They are aggressively exploiting the emotions generated by the person's death to create hagiography. Typifying these highly dubious claims about Thatcher was this (appropriately diplomatic) statement from President Obama: "The world has lost one of the great champions of freedom and liberty, and America has lost a true friend." Those gushing depictions can be quite consequential, as it was for the week-long tidal wave of unbroken reverence that was heaped on Ronald Reagan upon his death, an episode that to this day shapes how Americans view him and the political ideas he symbolized. Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.
> 
> Whatever else may be true of her, Thatcher engaged in incredibly consequential acts that affected millions of people around the world. She played a key role not only in bringing about the first Gulf War but also using her influence to publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq. She denounced Nelson Mandela and his ANC as "terrorists", something even David Cameron ultimately admitted was wrong. She was a steadfast friend to brutal tyrants such as Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein and Indonesian dictator General Suharto ("One of our very best and most valuable friends"). And as my Guardian colleague Seumas Milne detailed last year, "across Britain Thatcher is still hated for the damage she inflicted  and for her political legacy of rampant inequality and greed, privatisation and social breakdown."
> 
> To demand that all of that be ignored in the face of one-sided requiems to her nobility and greatness is a bit bullying and tyrannical, not to mention warped. As David Wearing put it this morning in satirizing these speak-no-ill-of-the-deceased moralists: "People praising Thatcher's legacy should show some respect for her victims. Tasteless." Tellingly, few people have trouble understanding the need for balanced commentary when the political leaders disliked by the west pass away. Here, for instance, was what the Guardian reported upon the death last month of Hugo Chavez:
> 
> To the millions who detested him as a thug and charlatan, it will be occasion to bid, vocally or discreetly, good riddance."
> 
> Nobody, at least that I know of, objected to that observation on the ground that it was disrespectful to the ability of the Chavez family to mourn in peace. Any such objections would have been invalid. It was perfectly justified to note that, particularly as the Guardian also explained that "to the millions who revered him  a third of the country, according to some polls  a messiah has fallen, and their grief will be visceral." Chavez was indeed a divisive and controversial figure, and it would have been reckless to conceal that fact out of some misplaced deference to the grief of his family and supporters. He was a political and historical figure and the need to accurately portray his legacy and prevent misleading hagiography easily outweighed precepts of death etiquette that prevail when a private person dies.
> 
> Exactly the same is true of Thatcher. There's something distinctively creepy - in a Roman sort of way - about this mandated ritual that our political leaders must be heralded and consecrated as saints upon death. This is accomplished by this baseless moral precept that it is gauche or worse to balance the gushing praise for them upon death with valid criticisms. There is absolutely nothing wrong with loathing Margaret Thatcher or any other person with political influence and power based upon perceived bad acts, and that doesn't change simply because they die. If anything, it becomes more compelling to commemorate those bad acts upon death as the only antidote against a society erecting a false and jingoistically self-serving history.


Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk


----------



## Sacrechat

jetsmum said:


> I'm not a fan of Maggie, never have been, but I think that all the talk of throwing parties and dancing on her grave is in bad taste. Whatever you think of her, there is a family who is grieving. Why not leave them alone, let them lay her to rest and then throw your parties if you feel the need.


You needs balls of steel to be a member of this forum. Lol!


----------



## tincan

Bisbow said:


> I think I will go now before I say something that I will regret and has me thown of the forum


.....

Rise up it's only comments as nasty as they are, all it shows is a total disregard for compassion and empathy .... LIke i said Love or Hate her , our opinions will always differ regarding her time in office..... You won't get thrown out lovely , just take a deep breath , if it is causing you anguish , then try not to come in and have a beak


----------



## ClaireLouise

tincan said:


> .....
> 
> Rise up it's only comments as nasty as they are, all it shows is a total disregard for compassion and empathy .... LIke i said Love or Hate her , our opinions will always differ regarding her time in office.....


I totally agree.

I honestly believe that the vile comments say more about the people posting them than it does about their intended target!


----------



## Knightofalbion

You cannot blame Margaret Thatcher for the demise of the coal industry.

The truth is the power stations could acquire coal cheaper from Poland than they could from British mines - and that despite transportation costs.
And it was a reliable supply. The British supply was constantly being disrupted by strikes.

Bear in mind too that Labour were in power for many years. They could have reopened the mines, they didn't. Because it wasn't economic or practical to do so.

It was Mr Scargill who was following his own Trotskyist agenda and sought to overthrow the government (A government that had been democratically elected.) who sealed the fate of the British coal industry.


----------



## Knightofalbion

ClaireLouise said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> I honestly believe that the vile comments say more about the people posting them than it does about their intended target!


Quite right. Hate is hate. It has to be in 'you' to come out.

I cannot believe some of the things that have been said on here.


----------



## haeveymolly

LolaBoo said:


> Im glad the woman is dead i really am and i hope she has fun playing in the devils playground and i hope she dont rest at all !


Cant believe anyone could say such a thing you ought to be ashamed of yourself. 20yrs since she was in power is it, you must have a very charmed,easy comfortable life since because so much will have happened to people in their lives since this, what happened 20 yrs ago would just pale into insignificance. Very sad  but a very lucky person.


----------



## WelshOneEmma

JANICE199 said:


> *There is an old saying, " we reap what we so ".. MT caused a lot of heartache and i believe people are now finally getting their hatred ( call it what you like) for the woman out of their systems for what she did to them.
> Did someone mention KARMA?*


What about the Karma for being so vindictive about an old ladies death and the pain that may cause her family? Its ok because other families have felt pain in the past due to her policies? An eye for an eye and all that!

Holding on to hate, especially for so long, doesn't do anyone any good (and before anyone jumps on me I have had some horrible things happen to me but I don't hold on to hate as the only person it hurts is me - I pick up the pieces and move on).

And with that in mind, I have decided with all the bitching on her about BOTH parties (who have both monumentally f*cked up) we need a new PM, so I am running. Will get rid of BSL, sort out immigration and benefits (although people won't like it) and reduce MPs expenses. Will have to start a new party though - the Pet Forums Party perhaps?

I can guarantee if that ever happened ALOT of you would hate my policies and most likely me, but when I die I will still have a family left behind to pick up the pieces and it would be heartbreaking to read some of these things.

Even though it wouldn't upset me when Philpott died, I wouldn't be spilling out this vitriol as he still has kids alive and thats not nice for the family left behind. And before anyone asks I am anti-death penalty.

I fear I have gone off on a tangent here...........


----------



## Jenny1966

LolaBoo said:


> Morons take a long hard realistic think back and take your blinkers off!


So all the people who have stood their ground and said their piece about showing a little bit of respect are Morons?? Cheers!

Just about sums this thread up .......... people with a LACK OF RESPECT who have to resort to name calling to get their point across!!!


----------



## tincan

ClaireLouise said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> I honestly believe that the vile comments say more about the people posting them than it does about their intended target!


....

Absolutely Claire , it's a mentality thing , there have been a lot of suprises with well respected Pf's over the past few weeks that have made many gasp by their bigoted comments .... All part of forum life lovely


----------



## Sacrechat

ClaireLouise said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> I honestly believe that the vile comments say more about the people posting them than it does about their intended target!


Why do people say this? Pointless!


----------



## ClaireLouise

Sacremist said:


> Why do people say this? Pointless!


whats pointless?


----------



## Kirkland

LolaBoo said:


> Im glad the woman is dead i really am and i hope she has fun playing in the devils playground and i hope she dont rest at all !


What a vile comment


----------



## dougal22

Sacremist said:


> Why do people say this? Pointless!


Why pointless? People are entitled to say what they like, within reason.

If Clairelouise's post was pointless, your post is pointless, the whole thread is pointless. In fact, the entire forum is pointless.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

LolaBoo said:


> Im glad the woman is dead i really am and i hope she has fun playing in the devils playground and i hope she dont rest at all !


I honestly hope that when your times comes at your funeral people treat you with respect and dont snigger and dance on your grave being happy you finally kicked the good olde bucket.

To be honest you just sound vile writing that and cannot understand the hatred behind it. People you hold on to grudges from the past need to let go and move on with the future.

I highly disliked my gran for what she put my mother thru all her life and more so to the last few years she was alive, she was a right old grouch and made sure she stirred a good **** pile before she left. Shes even causing problems from grave.

But at her funeral I respected her, I said my goodbyes even tho I had no emotional connection to her. I said no bad word nor after the fact and have kept any feeling a dislike to myself tho my mom is clear that I didnt nor ever did see her as a grandma figure in my life.

If from the posts on here is what the our current generation acts and thinks like I really do fear for our future generations.

and Im not ignore any posts on the information I asked for but Im running between classes and buses so will get back to you when Im free


----------



## lymorelynn

I really think this thread has gone on for long enough. There will always be disagreements over politics but there is no need for any members to get nasty with each other because they don't share the same views.


----------



## 1290423

Magnus said:


> The truth!!
> 
> Now that's funny. Mind you, I should have expected comedy from someone who thinks Gordon Brown was a good chancellor.


awh! the muppet who sold the gold
when I add gold was at an ALL time low


----------



## Zaros

dougal22 said:


> Why pointless? People are entitled to say what they like, within reason.
> 
> If Clairelouise's post was pointless, your post is pointless, the whole thread is pointless. In fact, the entire forum is pointless.


So I guess it's pointless me being here then?:001_unsure:


----------



## Sacrechat

ClaireLouise said:


> whats pointless?


I've just never understood the saying, 'it says more about them than her.' I just think its a pointless phrase. It's said a lot by people more as a substitute saying in place of anything constructive. It's not like the people it's aimed at give a damn about what others think of them, so I see the whole saying as a cliche.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Zaros said:


> So I guess it's pointless me being here then?:001_unsure:


Not pointless at all, were else am I gonna see two big gorgous teddy bear dogs!


----------



## auspiciousmind

Jenny1966 said:


> So all the people who have stood their ground and said their piece about showing a little bit of respect are Morons?? Cheers!
> 
> Just about sums this thread up .......... people with a LACK OF RESPECT who have to resort to name calling to get their point across!!!


For once I'm happy to be called a moron.
Rather that than be so full of hate I would be happy that someone died and want to throw a party about it.


----------



## Sacrechat

dougal22 said:


> Why pointless? People are entitled to say what they like, within reason.
> 
> If Clairelouise's post was pointless, your post is pointless, the whole thread is pointless. In fact, the entire forum is pointless.


It probably is pointless.


----------



## dougal22

Zaros said:


> So I guess it's pointless me being here then?:001_unsure:


Let's all be pointless together 

But where's the point in that?


----------



## Sacrechat

Zaros said:


> So I guess it's pointless me being here then?:001_unsure:


Probably! Lol!


----------



## Zaros

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Not pointless at all, were else am I gonna see two big gorgous teddy bear dogs!


Have you tried Hamley's:wink:


----------



## tincan

lymorelynn said:


> I really think this thread has gone on for long enough. There will always be disagreements over politics but there is no need for any members to get nasty with each other because they don't share the same views.[/QUOTE.......
> 
> I agree Lynne ..... but i honestly believe it is a good thread , with valid points from both sides , the nastiness just shows ignorance would be a shame to close it , can you not just remove what you feel is cruel and unkind
> 
> apologies i understand that may mean you shutting it down for the moment


----------



## 1290423

tincan said:


> lymorelynn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really think this thread has gone on for long enough. There will always be disagreements over politics but there is no need for any members to get nasty with each other because they don't share the same views.[/QUOTE.......
> 
> I agree Lynne ..... but i honestly believe it is a good thread , with valid points from both sides , the nastiness just shows ignorance would be a shame to close it , can you not just remove what you feel is cruel and unkind
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto Ditto
Click to expand...


----------



## JANICE199

lymorelynn said:


> I really think this thread has gone on for long enough. There will always be disagreements over politics but there is no need for any members to get nasty with each other because they don't share the same views.


*To be fair, feelings for some are bound to be running high. But i don't see that is a good reason to say the thread has gone on long enough. Surely if members still feel the need to add to this thread they should have the chance.*


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> These would be the same people striking every five minutes and producing shoddy, low-grade work because they thought good hard work was beneath them. The same people who didn't realise that there was world-wide compition for the same commodities and the world-wide competition was producing them cheaper and better. These would be the same people holding the country to ransom over pay instead of actually knuckling down and doing their best to make sure they WERE the best and to ensure that the world wanted to buy British.
> 
> The Unions and their ludicrous demands ruined this country. The only thing Maggie did 'wrong' was to stand up against them and tell them to get stuffed - the UK was no longer going to be held to ransom by these people.
> 
> I grew up under Thatcher, I worked under Thatcher and, I'll tell you for free, I had more money in my purse under Thatcher!!!
> 
> When Labour got in, my wages increased and so did my outgoings. I actually have less disposable cash now than I did 20 yrs ago. Labour got in and taxes went up -that is history repeating itself.


I wasnt going to post on this thread because i was no fan of Maggie, but i am because im rather offended by your post MB, many members of my family worked down the pit, including my Dad,hubby(then boyfriend) & my lovely Grandad. My Grandad grafted down that mine from being a boy of 14 until he retired at 65..51yrs He was bent double from working in stalls so low they couldnt stand up, he was buried and was very lucky to be dug out & survive, he was off work for 14 weeks without a penny pay..they didnt get anything in those days! He suffered pneumoconiosis and my Nan use to have to punch him in the back when he started coughing & choking! Im not going into the ins and out but without the unions conditions would never have improved for these men. He was already retired in the miners strike but he hated Scargil & didnt agree with how he'd gone about calling a strike without even balloting the men. Scargil & Maggie between them used the miners like pawns in a game. They were both equally to blame for the demise of the pits....& the suffering of thousands of people.

& Sheffield steel was known throughout the world for quality lol


----------



## Knightofalbion

Re closing the thread:

What price dignity and honour? Enough is enough.


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *To be fair, feelings for some are bound to be running high. But i don't see that is a good reason to say the thread has gone on long enough. Surely if members still feel the need to add to this thread they should have the chance.*


What...the chance to spew out hateful comments about an old lady that passed away. I agree with closing a thread when the haters keep on hating....

Glad thd other thread re MT was closed. Mods did good:thumbup1:


----------



## rocco33

While not a fan of Thatcherism, she was exactly what was needed when she came to power. The country was in a terrible state and at the mercy of the unions - (I wonder how many on here actually remember the rubbish in the streets, the power cuts when we had days without electricity). She did some good things initially, but like others who were in power too long, the longer they go on, the longer the good they did morph into damaging things.

I am however, disgusted at some of the comments on here. Sadly, members are showing their low IQs and a mentality that doesn't bode well for the country with them as citizens


----------



## rocco33

JANICE199 said:


> *Like it or not, he WAS a good chancellor. But hey, we are ALL entitled to our opinions.*


Are you happy living in your dreamworld? We had a healthy economy when he took power, but were practically bust when he lost power. Where do you get the idea he was a good chancellor?


----------



## JANICE199

rocco33 said:


> While not a fan of Thatcherism, she was exactly what was needed when she came to power. The country was in a terrible state and at the mercy of the unions - (I wonder how many on here actually remember the rubbish in the streets, the power cuts when we had days without electricity). She did some good things initially, but like others who were in power too long, the longer they go on, the longer the good they did morph into damaging things.
> 
> I am however, disgusted at some of the comments on here. Sadly, members are showing their low IQs and a mentality that doesn't bode well for the country with them as citizens


*With respect i bet there are less on here that actually lived under her rule than did.But they have had their say,but are the ones that don't know the truth.
And yes myself and my kids remember the power cuts, we found them fun and that's the truth.*


----------



## lymorelynn

JANICE199 said:


> *To be fair, feelings for some are bound to be running high. But i don't see that is a good reason to say the thread has gone on long enough. Surely if members still feel the need to add to this thread they should have the chance.*


Which is why I haven't closed it. 
Adding to the thread is one thing though- vitriol towards members who disagree is something else entirely. I am not going to share my political views with anyone - even my husband doesn't know which way I vote - but surely this can be discussed without the personal unpleasantness towards the late Margaret Thatcher or towards other members.


----------



## Calvine

Nagini said:


> agree with this. i couldn't bring myself to actually like her though


Today's lot aren't especially 'likeable' tho'...at least I didn't think she was deliberately corrupt, the ones around at the moment are like something from the Rogues' Gallery.


----------



## JANICE199

rocco33 said:


> Are you happy living in your dreamworld? We had a healthy economy when he took power, but were practically bust when he lost power. Where do you get the idea he was a good chancellor?


*pmsl yep i am very happy thank you.
Erm did you just trip over your own words? I thought TB was in power when GB was chancellor.*


----------



## Calvine

x PIXIE x said:


> Throughout the 80s I know my dad hated her. His mum was one of the victims of thatcher Britain. I think it's sad that anyone has died, regardless of political opinion. She made Britain great, she fought for what she believed in and showed what a woman could do with hard work and belief.
> 
> It's very sad -RIP Lady Thatcher


Pixie, you are right, she was true to herself and you have to admire that.


----------



## DogLover1981

I only know a little bit of about Margaret Thatcher. People idolize and vilify politicians too much and take politics way too seriously at times, IMO (It's so true here in the states). You would have a hard time getting sane politicians to run for elections, if they all end up so hated they fear for their personal safety.


----------



## Kirkland

JANICE199 said:


> *pmsl yep i am very happy thank you.
> Erm did you just trip over your own words? I thought TB was in power when GB was chancellor.*


So Janice why was he a good chancellor? Where's your evidence? I have given my evidence in previous posts as to why he was a bad prime minister such as selling half the UK gold reserve for rockbottom prices and advocating banking deregulation which helped fuel the economic crisis in the UK (even Gordon Brown admitted it).


----------



## rocco33

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect i bet there are less on here that actually lived under her rule than did.But they have had their say,but are the ones that don't know the truth.
> And yes myself and my kids remember the power cuts, we found them fun and that's the truth.*


Well perhaps that's says more about you than anything else! 

Oh, and I remember them too.


----------



## rocco33

JANICE199 said:


> *pmsl yep i am very happy thank you.Erm did you just trip over your own words? I thought TB was in power when GB was chancellor.*


I realise that from your replies - I guess you must enjoy living in ignorance.


----------



## auspiciousmind

I don't have a problem with reading:

Margret Thatcher was crap because she did X , Y , Z. Even use the word hate if you must.

I did not have to live through her reign but have heard many stories from my parents, grandparents, uncles , aunties etc etc that have all been negative when explaining her reign.

I just don't want to read people saying how happy they are about her being dead.. and talk of throwing parties etc.
I think that's what the majority of people are wound up about in this thread rather than wanting people to lick ass and say "She was a great PM . she made a real difference to the world"

I have yet to find a politician that I genuinely think is a good person that has OUR best interests at heart. But I don't want them to all die , go to hell and have parties celebrating it. :sosp:


----------



## porps

rocco33 said:


> Well perhaps that's says more about you than anything else!


lol theres that cliche again


----------



## porps

auspiciousmind said:


> *I just don't want to read people saying how happy they are about her being dead.. and talk of throwing parties etc.*
> I think that's what the majority of people are wound up about in this thread rather than wanting people to lick ass and say "She was a great PM . she made a real difference to the world"
> :


then dont read it.


----------



## auspiciousmind

porps said:


> then dont read it.


Sorry I didn't realise that you got to dictate who replies and reads this thread.

I'm reading this thread because I'm in my early 20's I never experienced Thatchers reign so I don't know what it was like.. However by reading people like Janices posts about her experiences (listening to my parents, grandparents etc) I can see why people would 'hate' her. If I had to live through it and watch family members suffer I'd probably hate her too.. I still wouldn't want to dance on her grave and have a party though.

Neither would my family that HAVE experienced living during her time in power.


----------



## Sacrechat

porps said:


> lol theres that cliche again


I wish I had a pound for every time I read it on here. Lol!


----------



## DogLover1981

lymorelynn said:


> I am not going to share my political views with anyone - even my husband doesn't know which way I vote - but surely this can be discussed without the personal unpleasantness towards the late Margaret Thatcher or towards other members.


I do discuss politics on here and offline. I don't, however, consider it anyone's business who I may vote for and I try to avoid stating it. There is a reason that there are anonymous elections.


----------



## porps

auspiciousmind said:


> Sorry I didn't realise that you got to dictate who replies and reads this thread.


apology accepted.


----------



## rocco33

I think the Telegraph put it the best*

As her aide Ferdinand Mount once said of her  and he was by no means blind to her faults  she made Britons believe that things were possible: that we could revive ourselves through a sheer act of will and by blocking our ears to the enemies of progress. The intensity of the hatred she inspired was, paradoxically, a tribute to her. No one who changes the way a country works, to put it bluntly, can do so without implementing policies that hurt people*

Clearly there is still a lot of bitterness from those who were hurt and, I suspect, even more from their offspring


----------



## rocco33

Sacremist said:


> I wish I had a pound for every time I read it on here. Lol!


Well, it's a polite way of saying what I could - so will do for me!


----------



## tincan

Has anyone had a brick thru their window, had malicious phone calls from family threatening to kill you , your disinherited , your not my son , brother ,.....SCAB SCAB SCAB ... Well we did , my youngest son was born 3wks early ... 6lb 1oz good weight thank heavens ... And why did that happen because the shipyard had gone on strike my O/H had just been promoted , was not a member of a union , worked his fricking arse off , did not agree with the strike it was futile in the end , no-one won , people suffered ,families seperated .... So i know that my o/h's family wanted to go in , but as they were union members they did'nt , it is a stupid , stupid mentality carried on through those who's families are sucked in .... Unions did have a valid place, still do , however they used their so called power to the detriment of those who paid into a trade union believing they were doing the right thing ..... and in those days you were literally bullied into joining a union , In our case i can honestly say , that the mentality of our family and others was literally passed down thru the generations .... So if you don't comply then you are ostrasized ... Mud sticks , how glad am i we were not in that mindset forever damned as the "Black Sheep" well so be it , and has been for 25yrs ... rant rant rant .... sorry


----------



## Goblin

JANICE199 said:


> They moan about how this country is going downhill, but then moan about the working folk that stood up to previous governments.



So you believe unions should drive businesses bankrupt by pushing pay rises over and above what companies can pay based on what the company is bringing in? You believe people who should be let go through incompetence should be kept on?

Here in Germany we had a teacher teaching our daughter suffering from Schizophrenia, supported by the system. She was simply moved from school to school. Previous schools took 4years and 2 years to have her moved and replaced. Due to our protests, kids being removed from school despite legal threats etc she was put onto sick leave and early retirement within 2 weeks from the time parents realized how bad the situation was. What's this got to do with unions.. Well just to let you know I agree standing up is sometimes necessary.

Anyhow when investigating possible ways of getting rid of bad teachers due to the above I looked for the UK system. Not talking about anything as bad as Schizophrenia I add. I would like to think any union wouldn't condone such a person continuing teaching and would try to get them help. This was also before the latest changes making it "easier" to get rid of incompetent teachers which from a quick look changed last year. Between 2001 and 2011 only 17 teachers were "struck off". Does this mean there are no incompetent teachers. Nope it means the unions used to make deals.. give the teacher a good reference and we'll move them to a different school quickly. Don't and you'll have a fight on your hands which will drag the schools rating down. Didn't matter if the complaint was justified, if the person was competent or not. Is this the type of "standing up" you condone? I'm a parent, shouldn't the welfare of the children these people are teaching come first if the person is really incompetent?

You'll notice nobody that I know has said unions do not have a place. They certainly do. Being blind to the mistakes and failings simply as they also do things right is also to be avoided.


----------



## MollySmith

I lived through her time (reign is a misnomer, she thought she was Queen but let's not get that wrong). Everyone has a different viewpoint mine is less than favourable but I liked Robert Preston's tweet which alluded to a politician who defined a generation by who was for or against her.

The political landscape was different then. Labour had given the country the legacy of the Winter of Discontent and even union members were unhappy with Wilson. I don't think anyone knew what a megalomaniac she was. 

I am conscious of inheriting my parents politics who were hurt by her policies (my dad lost his job). But I think that in an age where it's easier than ever to look up manifestos at a. Election, I did check each one and confident that history was right and I shan't change yet.

It strikes me that those partying and tweeting aren't old enough to know what it was like.


----------



## northnsouth

There are two quotes I remember from Thatcher... 
There is no such thing as society and the Lady is not for turning....

Sums her up IMO.


----------



## Sacrechat

It's gone eerily quiet in here. Lol!


----------



## Magnus

To put the "there is no such thing as society" quote in context, here it is :-

"They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation"

Now explain to me why that is wrong.


----------



## JANICE199

Kirkland said:


> So Janice why was he a good chancellor? Where's your evidence? I have given my evidence in previous posts as to why he was a bad prime minister such as selling half the UK gold reserve for rockbottom prices and advocating banking deregulation which helped fuel the economic crisis in the UK (even Gordon Brown admitted it).





rocco33 said:


> Are you happy living in your dreamworld? We had a healthy economy when he took power, but were practically bust when he lost power. Where do you get the idea he was a good chancellor?





rocco33 said:


> I realise that from your replies - I guess you must enjoy living in ignorance.


*You state that when GB took over we had a healthy economy. Am i not right in saying Tony Blair was in power when Gordon Brown took over?
I did not say he was so good at being PM.*


----------



## Magnus

auspiciousmind said:


> Sorry I didn't realise that you got to dictate who replies and reads this thread.
> 
> I'm reading this thread because I'm in my early 20's I never experienced Thatchers reign so I don't know what it was like.. However by reading people like Janices posts about her experiences (listening to my parents, grandparents etc) I can see why people would 'hate' her. If I had to live through it and watch family members suffer I'd probably hate her too.. I still wouldn't want to dance on her grave and have a party though.
> 
> Neither would my family that HAVE experienced living during her time in power.


Living through the years prior to Mrs Thatcher coming to power you would have seen a nation held to ransom by unions with bodies remaining unburied, rubbish piled high in the streets, our national industries subsidised to ludicrous levels, a country absolutely ravaged by socialism. She solved the problem, beat the unions that promised to destroy her and raised our status in the world again.


----------



## rocco33

JANICE199 said:


> *You state that when GB took over we had a healthy economy. Am i not right in saying Tony Blair was in power when Gordon Brown took over?
> I did not say he was so good at being PM.*


As pedantry is the only valid thing you have to say, then I will correct my post  'When he took over as Chancellor the country had a healthy economy and the country's coffers were doing well. When he left power, the country's coffers were empty.' Tony Blair gave him a pretty free rein when it came to finances so it one could suggest that he held power over the finances


----------



## northnsouth

northnsouth said:


> There are two quotes I remember from Thatcher...
> There is no such thing as society and the Lady is not for turning....
> 
> Sums her up IMO.





Magnus said:


> To put the "there is no such thing as society" quote in context, here it is :-
> 
> "They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation"
> 
> Now explain to me why that is wrong.


*Where did I say it was wrong*!! I said it summed her up in IMO.


----------



## dougal22

Sacremist said:


> I wish I had a pound for every time I read it on here. Lol!


And I wish I had a pound for every oops litter of kittens on this forum, but that's a whole other story 

Inane comments, *pointless *comments, total bullshIte comments - par for the course on a forum.

Now what was the point ..........................


----------



## tlewis

It's really interesting to read that full quote Magnus - thanks. Yes, society exists through each of us rather than as some separate, unique entity.

And may she RIP.


----------



## Sacrechat

dougal22 said:


> And I wish I had a pound for every oops litter of kittens on this forum, but that's a whole other story
> 
> Inane comments, *pointless *comments, total bullshIte comments - par for the course on a forum.
> 
> Now what was the point ..........................


Just making an observation. 

I never get involved in oops litter threads. I can't even be bothered to read them. I love making inane comments on contentious threads in which I have no intentions if getting involved. It amuses me.


----------



## Kirkland

JANICE199 said:


> *You state that when GB took over we had a healthy economy. Am i not right in saying Tony Blair was in power when Gordon Brown took over?
> I did not say he was so good at being PM.*


That does not answer my question all the things I stated in my post were when Gordon Brown was chancellor. Here's some more facts about messiah Brown's excellent job as chancellor, in 1997 Britain had the 13th largest deficit of OCED countries by 2008 we had the 5th highest deficit of OCED countries, before Gordon Brown took over as chancellor average real disposable income was increasing by 3.2% but during Gordon Brown's term as chancellor that went down to 2.6% and of course as I have said several times in this thread he sold half the UK's gold reserves for about 1/8th of what they are worth today. So again I will ask what did he do which made him a good chancellor?

As I said I don't think Osborne is any better to be honest he is worse but Gordon Brown was a rubbish chancellor and to be honest until we get a chancellor who understands finances that is not going to change. I mean why are we putting people with degree's in history who have never worked in any economic based job in charge of the finances?


----------



## MCWillow

Sacremist said:


> Just making an observation.
> 
> I never get involved in oops litter threads. I can't even be bothered to read them. * I love making inane comments on contentious threads in which I have no intentions if getting involved. It amuses me.*


Ditto.........


----------



## Sacrechat

MCWillow said:


> Ditto.........


Nice to know we think alike for once.


----------



## rocco33

Magnus said:


> Living through the years prior to Mrs Thatcher coming to power you would have seen a nation held to ransom by unions with bodies remaining unburied, rubbish piled high in the streets, our national industries subsidised to ludicrous levels, a country absolutely ravaged by socialism. She solved the problem, beat the unions that promised to destroy her and raised our status in the world again.


Exactly - it was thought that Britain at that time was largely ungovernable. Although I don't like the legacy of greed she started (although I don't think that was her intention), I can't see any other politician of that time able to do what she did when she first got in.


----------



## dougal22

Sacremist said:


> Just making an observation.
> 
> I never get involved in oops litter threads. I can't even be bothered to read them. *I love making inane comments on contentious threads in which I have no intentions if getting involved. It amuses me.*


Wind up merchant then?


----------



## Sacrechat

dougal22 said:


> Wind up merchant then?


When the mood takes me, yes. Today, I'm in the mood.


----------



## rocco33

dougal22 said:


> Wind up merchant then?


But there are also wind up merchants who think they're talking sense too


----------



## Sacrechat

rocco33 said:


> But there are also wind up merchants who think they're talking sense too


We all think we talk sense at the time of speaking.


----------



## dougal22

Sacremist said:


> When the mood takes me, yes. Today, I'm in the mood.


Ooh err, from your tone, you sound like you could take on the world


----------



## dougal22

rocco33 said:


> But there are also wind up merchants who think they're talking sense too


Doesn't that apply to 99% of the forum :lol:


----------



## Sacrechat

dougal22 said:


> Ooh err, from your tone, you sound like you could take on the world


Today the world, tomorrow the universe.


----------



## dougal22

Sacremist said:


> Today the world, tomorrow the universe.


What, you planning on doing your spring clean tomorrow


----------



## Sacrechat

dougal22 said:


> What, you planning on doing your spring clean tomorrow


You bet I am!


----------



## CRL

right after reading 46 pages of utter [email protected] i think i need a good lie down. 

i was born while MT was in power, 1988 to be presice, so i havent got a personal opinion as to what she was like as a prime minister. i can understand from what ive heard on the news and read on this thread that some people whose families were torn apart by MT's government would hate her. i can also understand that some people idolised her, she was a figurehead for women, very empowered (if thats the right word). but after reading the whole thread i can safely say that i am appalled at some of the comments by some members. to wish someone dead, to wish them to suffer, to party and to say you will dance on her grave is disgusting, and i sincerely hope none of your family members or yourself get talked about and treated like this after they have died. 

just to wish anybody pain while they die is sickening. have you seen anybody die in pain? because its not something you would be wishing on anybody if you had. the same with dementia, its a horrible disease. 

RIP Margaret Thatcher, and condolences to the family she left behind.


----------



## dougal22

Sacremist said:


> You bet I am!


Go girl, start now while the mood takes you 

Me, I'm totally deflated, waiting patiently for the meds to kick in :Yawn:


----------



## Sacrechat

dougal22 said:


> Go girl, start now while the mood takes you
> 
> Me, I'm totally deflated, waiting patiently for the meds to kick in :Yawn:


Bed time for me too, I think. :Yawn: reading this thread has worn me out.


----------



## K9Steve

All I can say is that this lady really lived up to her nickname, "Iron Lady", in British politics. However, I think she helped bring the Cold War to a closing end by getting then American President Ronald Reagan and the new former Soviet Union Mickal (sorry about spelling) Gorbachev to speak to one another, where as before, it seems when any leader of these two countries get together to talk, it ended up like a chess game. 

So, thank you, Margaret Thatcher and may you rest in peace!


----------



## Malmum

YorkshireMuppet said:


> I have no idea why nobody is saying RIP


She should have RIP years ago - would have saved a lot of people the considerable hardship she brought with her 'reign'!


----------



## DogLover1981

She was Prime Minister more than 20 years ago. If you don't like some of things she did, is any of the rude talk really going to change anything and undo it? It's trashy to post things that almost wish death on people, IMO.

I think people need to avoid the whole us vs. them silliness with politics.


----------



## LinznMilly

Haven't read all the replies - simply because I don't have time, but after 14 pages, I think I've read enough anyway. 

I said this on the other MT thread, and I'll say it on this one:

Regardless of our politcal views, regardless of your own opinions of Lady Thatcher, there's an innocent family/friends grieving for the loss of their loved one. 

Imagine it was YOUR mother/grandmother/wife/daughter/sister/aunt etc, and you saw T-shirts celebrating her death, parties being arranged in the streets? How would you feel? I'm sure her family know about the mixed opinions she created but do they REALLY deserve this?

Whether you respect her (alive or dead) or not, respect her family and their right to mourn without knowing people like you are attending street-parties.


----------



## Phoolf

DogLover1981 said:


> She was Prime Minister more than 20 years ago. If you don't like some of things she did, is any of the rude talk really going to change anything and undo it? *It's trashy to post things that almost wish death on people, IMO*
> 
> I think people need to avoid the whole us vs. them silliness with politics.


I sincerely hope you pipe up with that snippet next time someone thinks the death penalty is a good idea


----------



## Phoolf

How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts | Politics | guardian.co.uk

And for the people glad she was a woman - she was an opponent of feminism and did nothing for women.


----------



## koekemakranka

porps said:


> im not gonna miss out on a free party...
> 
> *funny how i didnt see anyone calling the iraqis hideous when they celebrated saddams death, noone was telling them not to celebrate the death of a hated figure...*
> 
> what that tells me is it's ok to celebrate but people draw their lines in different places.


I didn't like seeing the celebration of his death and wondered how his family felt to see that. It made me feel sick, even though I would agree that he was an evil man. 
There are a number of politicians I would like to see dead, but I won't join in any celebrations. I don't see it a hypocrisy to keep my feelings to myself. Not every single thought that runs through my head has to be spurted out for all to hear. It's called discretion.


----------



## IrishEyes

I wasn't going to post on here but I have been following it. Whilst I am not a fan of MT, I can understand and sympathise with those who have suffered as a result of her leadership but street parties and nasty comments I think are really unneccesary. 
She was a Mother and I can only imagine what her children must be going through at the moment, dealing with their grief whilst at the same time having to deal with such a reaction from the public.. and yes they will most certainly be heartbroken that people are celebrating the death of their mum.

Nobody has to lie and say that they liked her but why the need to attend a party? Why celebrate and make such a big deal? Is it not enough that she's dead?

Holding onto anger is the same as drinking poison and expecting it to kill the other person.


----------



## bird

Phoolf said:


> How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts | Politics | guardian.co.uk
> 
> And for the people glad she was a woman - she was an opponent of feminism and did nothing for women.


That's because she believed in people getting on in life by merit and ability not by the sex they were born. Which is how it should be.


----------



## Colliebarmy

IrishEyes said:


> .
> 
> Nobody has to lie and say that they liked her but why the need to attend a party? Why celebrate and make such a big deal? Is it not enough that she's dead?
> 
> *Holding onto anger is the same as drinking poison and expecting it to kill the other person.*


Bad Karma always comes back at ya


----------



## Colliebarmy

When she came to power the UK was losing 30,000,000 days a year to strikes, when she left power that figure was 2,000,000, she made Britain Great again...

unlike the no-neck whimps who followed her into No 10


----------



## Colliebarmy

Phoolf said:


> How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts | Politics | guardian.co.uk
> 
> And for the people glad she was a woman - she was an opponent of feminism and did nothing for women.


do you want help based on your sex? thats positive discrimination now....lol


----------



## nutty

"'Be kind whenever possible. Its always possible."
The Dalai Lama


----------



## Goblin

Colliebarmy said:


> do you want help based on your sex? thats positive discrimination now....lol


Isn't that what feminism is all about. It's not equality. Okay.. another topic


----------



## grumpy goby

Goblin said:


> Isn't that what feminism is all about. It's not equality. Okay.. another topic


Dont get me started lol.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Knightofalbion said:


> You cannot blame Margaret Thatcher for the demise of the coal industry.
> 
> The truth is the power stations could acquire coal cheaper from Poland than they could from British mines - and that despite transportation costs.
> And it was a reliable supply. The British supply was constantly being disrupted by strikes.
> 
> Bear in mind too that Labour were in power for many years. They could have reopened the mines, they didn't. Because it wasn't economic or practical to do so.
> 
> It was Mr Scargill who was following his own Trotskyist agenda and sought to overthrow the government (A government that had been democratically elected.) who sealed the fate of the British coal industry.


I watched the MT programme last night - Neil Kinnock more or less said that it was Scargill who finished it for the mines not Mrs Thatcher



JANICE199 said:


> *I think it has already been said, but i believe if the miners had done their strike in the winter and not the summer they would have broken the government. I may be wrong though.
> I cannot for the life of me understand some peoples views. They moan about how this country is going downhill, but then moan about the working folk that stood up to previous governments.
> Nowt so strange as folks i guess.*


And that Janice hits the nail on the head, the strikes were about breaking the government not pay or conditions. The government were democratically elected by the country, the miners were not (well it wasn't really about the miners it was the union leaders, the likes of Scargill). Various unions went too far and were holding the country to ransom, she broke that cycle to get the UK back on its feet.

She did seem to turn into a megalomaniac in the end and ploughed through the poll tax despite her other MPs telling her it was wrong - it was the poll tax that finished her because it was blatantly unfair.

On a lighter note always thought getting rid of the school milk was the best thing she ever did, it was bleedin horrible and always made me want to puke


----------



## Magnus

Can somebody explain to me why the Poll tax was unfair?

Take a couple of two bedroomed houses, one occupied by a single old lady and the other occupied by two couples. The Community Charge included all of the elements which were until then subsidised by rates - bin collections, police, libraries, swimming pools and other council funded facilities.
Does it not make sense that the four people in one house are going to use four times as much of those facilities as the single lady? Income tax dealt with inequalities in pay, the Community Charge was for the community services. If you were on £50k a year or £10k a year your bin weighed the same.

Bloody good idea obviously not liked by those who had managed to plot a course through life without contributing, the same type who are now whinging about having their benefits cut because there's bugger all wrong with them.

As the Iron Lady said "_the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money_". How very true.


----------



## JANICE199

DoodlesRule said:


> I watched the MT programme last night - Neil Kinnock more or less said that it was Scargill who finished it for the mines not Mrs Thatcher
> 
> And that Janice hits the nail on the head, the strikes were about breaking the government not pay or conditions. The government were democratically elected by the country, the miners were not (well it wasn't really about the miners it was the union leaders, the likes of Scargill). Various unions went too far and were holding the country to ransom, she broke that cycle to get the UK back on its feet.
> 
> She did seem to turn into a megalomaniac in the end and ploughed through the poll tax despite her other MPs telling her it was wrong - it was the poll tax that finished her because it was blatantly unfair.
> 
> On a lighter note always thought getting rid of the school milk was the best thing she ever did, it was bleedin horrible and always made me want to puke


*lol God i'm going to get slaughtered for this, but here goes anyway.
Even if a government is elected but the people are against them strongly, then i say, why not bring the government down.
I'm not saying the unions were/are angels but who else stands up to the governments when they are blatently (sp) doing harm to the people and the country?
It's like the crowd we have in now, they do not want to hear what the people have to say, they don't care how much harm they are doing.Why should we put up with it?
This is just my opinion 
Oh as as for school milk, haha in the summer i would drink 2 or 3 bottles, so it made me feel sick, then i could go home. lol*


----------



## nutty

Magnus said:


> Can somebody explain to me why the Poll tax was unfair?
> 
> Take a couple of two bedroomed houses, one occupied by a single old lady and the other occupied by two couples. The Community Charge included all of the elements which were until then subsidised by rates - bin collections, police, libraries, swimming pools and other council funded facilities.
> Does it not make sense that the four people in one house are going to use four times as much of those facilities as the single lady? Income tax dealt with inequalities in pay, the Community Charge was for the community services. If you were on £50k a year or £10k a year your bin weighed the same.
> 
> Bloody good idea obviously not liked by those who had managed to plot a course through life without contributing, the same type who are now whinging about having their benefits cut because there's bugger all wrong with them.
> 
> As the Iron Lady said "_the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money_". How very true.


Great post


----------



## suzy93074

DoodlesRule said:


> I watched the MT programme last night - Neil Kinnock more or less said that it was Scargill who finished it for the mines not Mrs Thatcher
> 
> And that Janice hits the nail on the head, the strikes were about breaking the government not pay or conditions. The government were democratically elected by the country, the miners were not (well it wasn't really about the miners it was the union leaders, the likes of Scargill). Various unions went too far and were holding the country to ransom, she broke that cycle to get the UK back on its feet.
> 
> She did seem to turn into a megalomaniac in the end and ploughed through the poll tax despite her other MPs telling her it was wrong - it was the poll tax that finished her because it was blatantly unfair.
> 
> On a lighter note always thought getting rid of the school milk was the best thing she ever did, it was bleedin horrible and always made me want to puke



I LOVED milk at break time! in the little glass bottles with blue straws  brings back great memories of child hood for me 

I was a child and young teen when Maggie T was in power - my family have always voted conservative - but I personally as an adult did not agree with all her policies and those of the conservative ....I also grew up in Cotgrave a small mining village just out of Nottingham - although none of my family were miners and we did not live on the "mining estate" as it was called back then - I came from the "posh area" - there was a huge divide where I lived between the people esp at the time of the mining dispute - I remember it well - I had many friends who's fathers were down the mine - I did feel for them....it was heartbreaking to see some of them so broken 

As I have said there were many policies I dont agree with from her day in power - BUT I can still say RIP - that does not make me a hypocrite as some seem to think - it makes me a decent human being .....my parents raised me that way!


----------



## cheekyscrip

She talked to Gorbatchov, she had been influential in stopping falling giant of communism from crushing Poland in thier struggle to free from Soviet opression... war was hanging over our heads...war that would have destroyed our country and took many , many lives...much more than martial law introduced on 13.12.81, 
my firends were armed and ready to fight Russian army...I was ready to do whatever was expected of me...
It did not happen...not more than few arrests and I was let out without a charge anyway...

considering all...she might in a way help to save cheeky and her lot...therefore I owe her one...

but I lived in Hull too..so understand were it went so wrong....


----------



## Magnus

JANICE199 said:


> *lol God i'm going to get slaughtered for this, but here goes anyway.
> Even if a government is elected but the people are against them strongly, then i say, why not bring the government down.
> I'm not saying the unions were/are angels but who else stands up to the governments when they are blatently (sp) doing harm to the people and the country?
> It's like the crowd we have in now, they do not want to hear what the people have to say, they don't care how much harm they are doing.Why should we put up with it?
> *


The problem with this is what an individual's perception of "doing harm" is. You will, I imagine, think that the current government is "doing harm" through austerity, by making harsh cuts to benefits. Whereas I think that the last government did the harm by financial mismanagement and, once they realised it was coming to an end, deliberately increasing the spending and borrowing to leave a bigger mess. (Thanks Ed Balls)

This bigger mess needs harsher measures to fix it, ensuring the unpopularity of the incoming government. Maggie had the same problems in '79 coupled with a country being run by Jack Jones, Red Robbo and Arthur Scargill. Labour had seen inflation rise to 23.7% in 1975 under their tenure and tried to bring it down with "wage restraints" - the unions didn't like that so they held the country to ransom. The three day week, regular strikes, bodies not buried, litter filling the streets. That's what the unions did for us.

The UK was the poor man of Europe and through conviction politics, tough tactics and some luck Maggie was able to mend us over time. This time around the ovine, benefit culture, something for nothing brigade are already stamping their greedy fat feet because they've had a few years of cuts. 
What this country must not do is go back to Labour after just one term away because the next time they f*ck up our finances may well be the last.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Magnus said:


> Can somebody explain to me why the Poll tax was unfair?
> [/I]"


It replaced Rates (now council tax) which is and always has been based on the size of your property. Under the poll tax someone in a one bedroom flat could be paying the same as someone in a mansion.

When it first came in I was recently divorced with a baby, I earned about 6k then. Marital home was closer to town, 2 bed semi on my wage I couldn't stay there as couldn't afford the rates. I moved back to closer to my parents, semi rural so rates were less there and into a small two bed terraced the rates were just over £70 a year. Wham soon as I move in, changed to the poll tax and it was over £300 a year


----------



## JANICE199

Magnus said:


> The problem with this is what an individual's perception of "doing harm" is. You will, I imagine, think that the current government is "doing harm" through austerity, by making harsh cuts to benefits. Whereas I think that the last government did the harm by financial mismanagement and, once they realised it was coming to an end, deliberately increasing the spending and borrowing to leave a bigger mess. (Thanks Ed Balls)
> 
> This bigger mess needs harsher measures to fix it, ensuring the unpopularity of the incoming government. Maggie had the same problems in '79 coupled with a country being run by Jack Jones, Red Robbo and Arthur Scargill. Labour had seen inflation rise to 23.7% in 1975 under their tenure and tried to bring it down with "wage restraints" - the unions didn't like that so they held the country to ransom. The three day week, regular strikes, bodies not buried, litter filling the streets. That's what the unions did for us.
> 
> The UK was the poor man of Europe and through conviction politics, tough tactics and some luck Maggie was able to mend us over time. This time around the ovine, benefit culture, something for nothing brigade are already stamping their greedy fat feet because they've had a few years of cuts.
> What this country must not do is go back to Labour after just one term away because the next time they f*ck up our finances may well be the last.


*Whilst it wasn't a nice time, i for one admired what the strikers were aiming for. I can see things getting that bad again under this government but for different reasons.
As for our finances this crowd we have in now are doing nothing to improve our financial situation. Again, just my opinion.*


----------



## koekemakranka

Well, if she was so evil at the time, why didn't all the people rise up against her, not only the miners? 20 years is too late to complain and too long to carry around all this hate, surely.


----------



## MisguidedTree

For 3 million you could give everyone in Scotland a shovel, and we could dig a hole so deep we could hand her over to Satan in person (on Margaret Thatcher) 
&#8213; Frankie Boyle

I'm kinda hoping he follows through with this because it sounds like £3 million well spent.


----------



## JANICE199

koekemakranka said:


> Well, if she was so evil at the time, why didn't all the people rise up against her, not only the miners? 20 years is too late to complain and too long to carry around all this hate, surely.


*The people did rise up against her when she brought in the poll tax. As for hatred, i don't believe everyone that didn't like her, hated her. That fact the people still have strong feelings about her, shows what affect she had on some.*


----------



## Sacrechat

Sorry ClaireLouise about my pointless comment. I just wanted to see how many people would start to argue over something intended to be pointless and which people would jump in with their likes for someone's post arguing against something pointless. It wasn't personal against you. For those who did: it's nice to know who you are. Lol! I shall leave this thread now, it's wearing me out.


----------



## Magnus

DoodlesRule said:


> It replaced Rates (now council tax) which is and always has been based on the size of your property. Under the poll tax someone in a one bedroom flat could be paying the same as someone in a mansion.
> 
> When it first came in I was recently divorced with a baby, I earned about 6k then. Marital home was closer to town, 2 bed semi on my wage I couldn't stay there as couldn't afford the rates. I moved back to closer to my parents, semi rural so rates were less there and into a small two bed terraced the rates were just over £70 a year. Wham soon as I move in, changed to the poll tax and it was over £300 a year


Under the "rates" 4 adults living in a 2 bed semi-detached house would pay the same as one person living in a similar house next door. 
The point was that it should not be based on value of your property but on how much the inhabitants of a property would utilise facilities. Inequalities of wealth and pay are dealt with by other elements of the tax system.

In your example if the POll Tax had been in place before you moved you would not have been penalised for the value of your 2 bed semi, you would have paid only for one person and wouldn't have had to move.


----------



## Magnus

MisguidedTree said:


> For 3 million you could give everyone in Scotland a shovel, and we could dig a hole so deep we could hand her over to Satan in person (on Margaret Thatcher)
> ― Frankie Boyle
> 
> I'm kinda hoping he follows through with this because it sounds like £3 million well spent.


You're well named Misguided.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Magnus said:


> Under the "rates" 4 adults living in a 2 bed semi-detached house would pay the same as one person living in a similar house next door.
> The point was that it should not be based on value of your property but on how much the inhabitants of a property would utilise facilities. Inequalities of wealth and pay are dealt with by other elements of the tax system.
> 
> In your example if the POll Tax had been in place before you moved you would not have been penalised for the value of your 2 bed semi, you would have paid only for one person and wouldn't have had to move.


No you are wrong there, I would have moved back to my parents! Under the rates system you had options, move away from town (less facilities so rates were less in semi rural areas) move to a smaller property etc.

Inequalties in wealth etc were not covered by the tax system back then because you did not get all the working tax credits, housing benefit etc that you do now


----------



## Colliebarmy

MisguidedTree said:


> For 3 million you could give everyone in Scotland a shovel, and we could dig a hole so deep we could hand her over to Satan in person (on Margaret Thatcher)
> ― Frankie Boyle
> 
> I'm kinda hoping he follows through with this because it sounds like £3 million well spent.


they have a head start, Scotland is already a hole....PMSL


----------



## Magnus

DoodlesRule said:


> No you are wrong there, I would have moved back to my parents! Under the rates system you had options, move away from town (less facilities so rates were less in semi rural areas) move to a smaller property etc.
> 
> Inequalties in wealth etc were not covered by the tax system back then because you did not get all the working tax credits, housing benefit etc that you do now


As a single adult you would have paid less Poll tax than you would have paid rates in your two bed semi, had the Poll tax been in place before you moved back to your parents.

Inequalities in pay were dealt with by the tax system taking more off people who earned more; I know that today's obsession is with benefits and tax credits but I was not talking about those. They are not part of the tax system, they are part of the benefit system.


----------



## suewhite

JANICE199 said:


> *The people did rise up against her when she brought in the poll tax. As for hatred, i don't believe everyone that didn't like her, hated her. That fact the people still have strong feelings about her, shows what affect she had on some.*


I rose up over the poll tax and got carried away hit a policeman with my placard on a broomstick:001_tt1::001_tt1:


----------



## DoodlesRule

Magnus said:


> As a single adult you would have paid less Poll tax than you would have paid rates in your two bed semi, had the Poll tax been in place before you moved back to your parents.
> 
> Inequalities in pay were dealt with by the tax system taking more off people who earned more; I know that today's obsession is with benefits and tax credits but I was not talking about those. They are not part of the tax system, they are part of the benefit system.


Married home a) near town the rates were £300 ish, terraced b) in the back of beyond £70 ish - poll tax £300 ish in either a) or b) . Salary circa 6k taxed the same whether in a) or b)


----------



## welshjet

suewhite said:


> I rose up over the poll tax and got carried away hit a policeman with my placard on a broomstick:001_tt1::001_tt1:


Just glad it wasnt the spud Sue :ihih: :devil:


----------



## suewhite

welshjet said:


> Just glad it wasnt the spud Sue :ihih: :devil:


I was'nt into spuds then,I could have done damage with a sack of them:ihih:


----------



## suzy93074

suewhite said:


> I rose up over the poll tax and got carried away hit a policeman with my placard on a broomstick:001_tt1::001_tt1:


Can just imagine u Sue!! xxx

I have been hit with a potatoe  .....it bloody hurts !! in fact it nearly knocked me out! - I was in rural science at school and we were digging spuds up - one lad decided to throw em and yep I was in the way pmsl!!!:ihih:


----------



## Magnus

DoodlesRule said:


> Married home a) near town the rates were £300 ish, terraced b) in the back of beyond £70 ish - poll tax £300 ish in either a) or b) . Salary circa 6k taxed the same whether in a) or b)


So Poll tax for 1 person was £300 a month and for 3 people in a rural area it was £900 a month!!!!


----------



## DoodlesRule

Magnus said:


> So Poll tax for 1 person was £300 a month and for 3 people in a rural area it was £900 a month!!!!


Lol no, a year! Or might have been 6 monthly, was a long time ago and have drunk a lot of wine since then !


----------



## DoodlesRule

suewhite said:


> I rose up over the poll tax and got carried away hit a policeman with my placard on a broomstick:001_tt1::001_tt1:


So you have always been a bit firey then Sue


----------



## Magnus

Thought it was a bit steep.

However the point remains, are you saying that the Poll tax bill in the rural terraced house was £900 per year (£300 per person) and the poll tax bill in the semi was also £300 per person?


----------



## suewhite

DoodlesRule said:


> So you have always been a bit firey then Sue


I was so ashamed my picture and the court fine was plastered over the local paper,wish I had'nt bothered now we have the community charge:001_unsure::thumbdown:


----------



## DoodlesRule

Magnus said:


> Thought it was a bit steep.
> 
> However the point remains, are you saying that the Poll tax bill in the rural terraced house was £900 per year (£300 per person) and the poll tax bill in the semi was also £300 per person?


Rates were per property, poll tax was per person.

The poll tax per person was the same where ever you lived, one bed hovel or buckingham palace.

Rates were different based on the area you lived, posh affluent areas with lots of facilities rates were higher than run down areas or simply areas away from towns and any facilities. Then it was also based on the size of your property

Thats why people revolted, think they were actually called the poll tax riots


----------



## MoggyBaby

Maggies intention for the poll tax was that every person would pay EXACTLY the same sum regardless of where they lived. This was the theory behind it.

A flat rate price, across the board for all working adults. There is nothing unfair about that. In fact, it is pretty damn reasonable. 

Unfortunately, the govt allowed the councils to manage it and some took the p!ss by whacking the charge right up and making the whole thing totally unworkable. 

The Labour councils were the worst for it. I had the misfortune to live in a few Labour parishes back then and every one of them was more expensive for poll or council tax than the nearby Conservative areas. Even when Labour took over in govt, the Labour councils continued to charge over and above all others.


----------



## Julesky

Colliebarmy said:


> they have a head start, Scotland is already a hole....PMSL


Running as part of the 'better together' campaign?


----------



## Magnus

DoodlesRule said:


> Rates were per property, poll tax was per person.
> 
> The poll tax per person was the same where ever you lived, one bed hovel or buckingham palace.
> 
> Rates were different based on the area you lived, posh affluent areas with lots of facilities rates were higher than run down areas or simply areas away from towns and any facilities. Then it was also based on the size of your property
> 
> Thats why people revolted, think they were actually called the poll tax riots


Well, as you say, actually the level of poll tax was set by your local authority so it wasn't the same everywhere. Which is why I can't understand how the poll tax at your semi was £300 and was £300 per person at the terraced house in the sticks.

In fact the Labour Councils were always more expensive for rates too.


----------



## DoodlesRule

MoggyBaby said:


> Maggies intention for the poll tax was that every person would pay EXACTLY the same sum regardless of where they lived. This was the theory behind it.
> 
> A flat rate price, across the board for all working adults. There is nothing unfair about that. In fact, it is pretty damn reasonable.
> 
> Unfortunately, the govt allowed the councils to manage it and some took the p!ss by whacking the charge right up and making the whole thing totally unworkable.
> 
> The Labour councils were the worst for it. I had the misfortune to live in a few Labour parishes back then and every one of them was more expensive for poll or council tax than the nearby Conservative areas. Even when Labour took over in govt, the Labour councils continued to charge over and above all others.


Always wondered why it went so wrong, bit busy with a baby at the time to study it lol.

In theory then everyone should have paid loads less because if its per person rather than per property more money would be collected overall?

Makes sense on the cost thing, married home was under conservative council the smaller place I moved to was labour, I should have bought one across the road instead then as that was conservative too


----------



## MoggyBaby

Magnus said:


> Well actually the level of poll tax was set by your local authority so it wasn't the same everywhere. Which is why I can't understand how the poll tax at your semi was £300 and was £300 per person at the terraced house in the sticks.


It works if both locations were under the same local authority....... 

Outside of London, Local authorities cover a far greater area. 

ETA: Or you could have moved from a cheaper Conservative area to a more expensive Labour one.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Magnus said:


> Well actually the level of poll tax was set by your local authority so it wasn't the same everywhere. Which is why I can't understand how the poll tax at your semi was £300 and was £300 per person at the terraced house in the sticks.


All now made clear by Moggybaby


----------



## Magnus

No, in theory the same amount should have been collected but divided by the number of qualifying adults rather than on an estimate worth of a property.


----------



## Julesky

Magnus said:


> Well, as you say, actually the level of poll tax was set by your local authority so it wasn't the same everywhere. Which is why I can't understand how the poll tax at your semi was £300 and was £300 per person at the terraced house in the sticks.
> 
> In fact the Labour Councils were always more expensive for rates too.


The poll tax was introduced that everyone in a community pay the same

It did not take into account income

It was called the poll tax because they used the electoral register to track people for payment

People who could not afford it or didn't want to pay dropped off the register

Now- regardless of personal political fervour- any system whereby you can 'afford' to be a voter compared to those who cannot afford to- misrepresents the population and undermines democracy and more dangerously can skew future party elections.

Simples.


----------



## catz4m8z

I cant believe that people are holding death parties...and trashing their own town centres in the process!
What total scumbags!! She wasnt a mass murderer, nazi war criminal or child molester FFS and to the best of my knowledge was just a politician trying to make this country a better place to live (wether she suceeded or not is beside the point). 
Maybe she was horrible and destroyed the country but there has been enough years gone by for this country to have been turned around. So we must have a much better standard of living now right?
*very small voice* I cant help but wonder if we would be in the mess we are now if we had someone like her at the top presently.


----------



## CRL

all those saying they would be a hypocrite to even say RIP to MT because they hated her while she was alive, thats not being a hypocrite, thats just damn rude. this is being a hypocrite....


----------



## Starlite

Celebrations in the Rock bar on the Falls, I do love this pub 

https://www.facebook.com/WeeShee20?ref=tn_tnmn#!/photo.php?v=618179938196275

We lit off the rest of our fireworks last night as well, jelly and ice cream! na na na na, hey! Na na na na...


----------



## Jenny1966

I read this on the BBC website, I think it sums it up how some people have behaved quite well ..... 


"It's very easy to make caustic remarks in a few words, instantaneously. So for some people there's a great temptation to be direct and lack sensitivity."



Just my opinion of course


----------



## LolaBoo

catz4m8z said:


> I cant believe that people are holding death parties...and trashing their own town centres in the process!
> What total scumbags!! She wasnt a mass murderer, nazi war criminal or child molester FFS and to the best of my knowledge was just a politician trying to make this country a better place to live (wether she suceeded or not is beside the point).
> Maybe she was horrible and destroyed the country but there has been enough years gone by for this country to have been turned around. So we must have a much better standard of living now right?
> *very small voice* I cant help but wonder if we would be in the mess we are now if we had someone like her at the top presently.


I have expressed my views on here about the woman, but i do agree that holding death parties and trashing our cities and towns is disgusting something i would never do is condone that sort of violence


----------



## catz4m8z

LolaBoo said:


> I have expressed my views on here about the woman, but i do agree that holding death parties and trashing our cities and towns is disgusting something i would never do is condone that sort of violence


I suppose I just dont understand that attitude..it frightens me TBH. A mob is a mob is a mob!!
I was glad when she was booted out and if someone had posted a picture of her getting pelted with eggs or walking into a lamp-post I might have had a chuckle but I cant agree with people gleefully celebrating the death of an old lady with dementia!! (who may not have even known who she was at the end.).

People need to have more class IMO...:frown2:


----------



## Waterlily

LolaBoo said:


> I have expressed my views on here about the woman, but i do agree that holding death parties and trashing our cities and towns is disgusting something i would never do is condone that sort of violence


lol I know, Im kinda appalled and at some members here, The hatred is akin to savages. To glorify the death of her is beyond words its ...shameful.


----------



## LolaBoo

Waterlily said:


> lol I know, Im kinda appalled and at some members here, The hatred is akin to savages. To glorify the death of her is beyond words its ...shameful.


Having these parties is taking the i hated maggie a bit 2 far


----------



## Guest

wow! 52 pages long!!

can't say i really liked the woman but i wouldn't wish pain and suffering or death on anyone , whatever her misgivings were in life - she's paid her dues , she's dead.
death parties , hate parties or anything like that are disgusting , and had she been alive and in power , she'd have steam rolled the lot of them - now that's what i actually liked about her , she never backed down , she never gave in and there's no one been in office since her that was like that.
she made some really tough decisions , but she had to - can't say i would have liked her job.


----------



## JANICE199

*Perhaps people feel the need to have a final say. She did ruin many peoples lives.*


----------



## MoggyBaby

At the time of making this post, this thread has had 1975 likes!!!! :lol: :lol:


----------



## CRL

JANICE199 said:


> *Perhaps people feel the need to have a final say. She did ruin many peoples lives.*


ofcourse they are going to have the final say, she is dead, aint like she's going to answer back


----------



## Bisbow

I wonder what the rest of the civilized world think about us now. The parties etc are not the busuiness of civilized people, and those celebrating where not being civilized 
It was just mob culture, I am disgusted by the behaviour


----------



## Knightofalbion

JANICE199 said:


> Even if a government is elected but the people are against them strongly, then i say, why not bring the government down.
> 
> It's like the crowd we have in now, they do not want to hear what the people have to say, they don't care how much harm they are doing.Why should we put up with it?


Point of order, Janice. These are governments, like them or not, that were democratically elected.

Mrs Thatcher (no, I never voted for her) won three general elections. The 1983 election win was by an unprecedented landslide - and this AFTER four years of Thatcherism. (The miners strike was 1984-85)
So those who voted for her knew exactly what she stood for and what they would get.


----------



## catz4m8z

JANICE199 said:


> *Perhaps people feel the need to have a final say. She did ruin many peoples lives.*


wow, and it wasnt enough for them that she had dementia, a horrible and debilitating illness that would of stripped her of her identity and health??
They essentially have to dance on her grave and upset her family?

well, I hope I never meet those people!! I dont think we would get on at all!!


----------



## Waterlily

JANICE199 said:


> *Perhaps people feel the need to have a final say. She did ruin many peoples lives.*


I understand that, but she is dead already she cant hear it, all it does is show how we are backward evolving.


----------



## Goblin

Knightofalbion said:


> Mrs Thatcher (no, I never voted for her) won three general elections. The 1983 election win was by an unprecedented landslide - and this AFTER four years of Thatcherism. (The miners strike was 1984-85)
> So those who voted for her knew exactly what she stood for and what they would get.


In my experience, people vote governments out, not governments in when it comes to general elections. Even more the case when there were really only two parties. Memories were still vivid of the effect of old labour in government in 1983 and didn't want it. It's not people were necessarily content with what MT was doing.


----------



## JANICE199

CRL said:


> ofcourse they are going to have the final say, she is dead, aint like she's going to answer back


*You have misunderstood what i meant. It's obvious she can't answer back.
What i meant was, by showing their feelings as they are doing, in their minds this might be final closure for them.*


----------



## Knightofalbion

Goblin said:


> In my experience, people vote governments out, not governments in when it comes to general elections. Even more the case when there were really only two parties. Memories were still vivid of the effect of old labour in government in 1983 and didn't want it. It's not people were necessarily content with what MT was doing.


And she went on to win the 1987 election as well...


----------



## suzy93074

catz4m8z said:


> I suppose I just dont understand that attitude..it frightens me TBH. A mob is a mob is a mob!!
> I was glad when she was booted out and if someone had posted a picture of her getting pelted with eggs or walking into a lamp-post I might have had a chuckle but I cant agree with people gleefully celebrating the death of an old lady with dementia!! (who may not have even known who she was at the end.).
> 
> People need to have more class IMO...:frown2:


Spot on!! rep for you xx


----------



## WelshOneEmma

Bisbow said:


> I wonder what the rest of the civilized world think about us now. The parties etc are not the busuiness of civilized people, and those celebrating where not being civilized
> It was just mob culture, I am disgusted by the behaviour


I don't think it helps some of the MPs are leading the way. Scary when some of the people in power behave like this. Before long we will be having mob rule - what sort of world have I brought my daughter into.

*scuttles off to watch Revolution to get tips for the future*


----------



## Goblin

Knightofalbion said:


> And she went on to win the 1987 election as well...


Still doesn't mean they voted for her though. Just the alternative was worse. Maybe that's why one of her legacies is New Labour. The majority would never accept old labour.


----------



## Julesky

LolaBoo said:


> Having these parties is taking the i hated maggie a bit 2 far


I doubt that these so called parties have anything to do with Maggie- the small number of people that turned up in Glasgow city centre (it was live on webcam)- were the same mob protesting the bedroom 'tax' (it's not a tax incidently  )- how do I know cause the pics everyone was sharing, they had the same megaphones with their protest emblazoned on it and the same banners....

They had gone by around 7pm

They attracted the usual crowds of jakies with their booze (soon moved off as we're not allowed to drink on the streets here- so they were lifted)

The images from here were of a handful of numpties trying to make a point about something else.

Ironically the Scots like to hold themselves up as the number one or at least close second (argentina) target for MT's worst policies, but there was only a teensy number of affected individuals out on the streets- granted many more blowing hot air over the www.

The violence etc is just like the riots- give folk an excuse , any excuse and they'll flex their anger at a country that is cutting back. Whilst obviously MT is linked into that by policy, it's not about her death it's about showing frustration at a system.


----------



## suewhite

As I said early in this thread I lost my house,marriage,and my job soley because of her,but moved on long ago.I just think people that have to have parties because of anyones death are really quite sick and showing there ignorance or maybe just born attention seekers:001_unsure:


----------



## CRL

JANICE199 said:


> *You have misunderstood what i meant. It's obvious she can't answer back.
> What i meant was, by showing their feelings as they are doing, in their minds this might be final closure for them.*


having parties to celebrate her death
threatening to dance on her grave
saying she deserved to get dementia
wishing her pain
and alot more things that have been said on this thread alone, let alone the thousands of other forums and internet sites, you think that is 'final closure'. no that is disgusting, you may not have liked her but for people to say those things isnt closure, its just rude and shows people have no manners and respect for the dead.

if a member of your family died and you found out someone was having a party to celebrate them dying, that they were threatening to dance and desecrate her grave, saying they were glad she got such and such disease and hoping that she died in pain i doubt you would be this calm about saying its closure. so imagine for a moment what her family are feeling.


----------



## JANICE199

CRL said:


> having parties to celebrate her death
> threatening to dance on her grave
> saying she deserved to get dementia
> wishing her pain
> and alot more things that have been said on this thread alone, let alone the thousands of other forums and internet sites, you think that is 'final closure'. no that is disgusting, you may not have liked her but for people to say those things isnt closure, its just rude and shows people have no manners and respect for the dead.
> 
> if a member of your family died and you found out someone was having a party to celebrate them dying, that they were threatening to dance and desecrate her grave, saying they were glad she got such and such disease and hoping that she died in pain i doubt you would be this calm about saying its closure. so imagine for a moment what her family are feeling.


*As i said way back, people earn respect. Now nowhere i have i personally said i'm glad she is dead, i haven't said the people are right or wrong to act as they are. But i do understand why some people are acting as they are.
As for her family, why bring them into this? I'm sure they knew how much some people hated her.*


----------



## CRL

JANICE199 said:


> *As i said way back, people earn respect. Now nowhere i have i personally said i'm glad she is dead, i haven't said the people are right or wrong to act as they are. But i do understand why some people are acting as they are.
> As for her family, why bring them into this? I'm sure they knew how much some people hated her.*


alright so because they know people hated their mother they are going to be all hunky dory with the abuse she is getting now she is dead. said no person ever.


----------



## Magnus

Starlite said:


> Celebrations in the Rock bar on the Falls, I do love this pub
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/WeeShee20?ref=tn_tnmn#!/photo.php?v=618179938196275
> 
> We lit off the rest of our fireworks last night as well, jelly and ice cream! na na na na, hey! Na na na na...


The only word I can bring to mind is "scum".


----------



## loubyfrog

I live and was brought up in what once was a entire mining town.Everyone had a job of some sort at the pits.

The local council has decided NOT to fly the town hall flag at half mast and i honestly think that if they did the flag wouldn't stay on the pole for too long.

The town feels like MT didn't respect them so why should they respect her.


----------



## LinznMilly

JANICE199 said:


> *As i said way back, people earn respect. Now nowhere i have i personally said i'm glad she is dead, i haven't said the people are right or wrong to act as they are. But i do understand why some people are acting as they are.
> As for her family, why bring them into this? [/COLOUR] I'm sure they knew how much some people hated her.*




Probably because it's her family that have to face all this.

Love her, hate her, or even if you're unbiased - she's not going to hear any of this. Her family have to. That's why I said in an earlier post on this thread that, even if you don't/can't respect _her _- as a person, or as a politcian - at least respect her family's right to mourn her loss without needing to defend her.


----------



## Magnus

loubyfrog said:


> I live and was brought up in what once was a entire mining town.Everyone had a job of some sort at the pits.
> 
> The local council has decided NOT to fly the town hall flag at half mast and i honestly think that if they did the flag wouldn't stay on the pole for too long.
> 
> The town feels like MT didn't respect them so why should they respect her.


I expect the town thinks that Scargill was right to refuse the NUM a ballot? Or that it was right for the tax payer to subsidise the already failing mining industry?
I expect the town ignores the fact that more pits were closed by Labour? Did the town enjoy the power cuts? Does the town like the fact that unions tried to bring down a second government?

You know, some will always fall on stoney ground.


----------



## tincan

A few hundred P1ssed up hooligans dotted up and down the Country , hardly conveys the outpouring of hatred that was being thrown about yesterday... In fact you see more of the same every weekend in every town and city ... 
Just an excuse to get leathered and behave like the low-lives they are


----------



## DoodlesRule

Magnus said:


> The only word I can bring to mind is "scum".


I thought disrespectful and offensive, glad I don't live there :001_unsure:


----------



## Knightofalbion

Goblin said:


> Still doesn't mean they voted for her though. Just the alternative was worse. Maybe that's why one of her legacies is New Labour. The majority would never accept old labour.


They could have voted Liberal.


----------



## rocco33

Goblin said:


> Still doesn't mean they voted for her though. Just the alternative was worse. Maybe that's why one of her legacies is New Labour. The majority would never accept old labour.


The same could be said for Tony Blair who had taken us into an illegal war, got in bed with the bankers and big business and spent any money any money this country had and borrowed more to give the illusion that he was looking after the poorest. For a party that is so critical of MT, Labour did nothing to reverse anything she brought in when they had three terms of power!


----------



## Starlite

catz4m8z said:


> wow, and it wasnt enough for them that she had dementia, a horrible and debilitating illness that would of stripped her of her identity and health??
> They essentially have to dance on her grave and upset her family?
> 
> well, I hope I never meet those people!! I dont think we would get on at all!!


Her own kids didnt want anything to do with her - family card VOID
Dementia is not a get out card - illness card VOID

Hitler had Parkinsons when he died, do you feel bad for him?

Because you dont have actual blood on your hands doesnt mean you arent responsible for your policies and consequences of them



Magnus said:


> The only word I can bring to mind is "scum".


:dita:
Id pay good money for you to go into the pub and say that, but its much easier to mutter online isnt it?

God Bless them, be shaking the landlords hand next time im in


----------



## CRL

Starlite said:


> Id pay good money for you to go into the pub and say that, but its much easier to mutter online isnt it?


yeah because thats something to be proud of


----------



## Starlite

CRL said:


> yeah because thats something to be proud of


tis indeed  It's one thing being a keyboard warrior, another actually standing up for your views


----------



## DoodlesRule

Starlite said:


> Id pay good money for you to go into the pub and say that, but its much easier to mutter online isnt it?
> 
> God Bless them, be shaking the landlords hand next time im in


You associate yourself with this type of behaviour

Margaret Thatcher death parties: The Left's sick 'celebration' on Brixton's streets | Mail Online

How nice


----------



## tincan

It's not something i would like on my CV .... 
Nor is it something to boast about !!!! 

ho hum


----------



## rocco33

Starlite said:


> Her own kids didnt want anything to do with her - family card VOID
> Dementia is not a get out card - illness card VOID
> 
> Hitler had Parkinsons when he died, do you feel bad for him?
> 
> Because you dont have actual blood on your hands doesnt mean you arent responsible for your policies and consequences of them
> 
> :dita:
> Id pay good money for you to go into the pub and say that, but its much easier to mutter online isnt it?
> 
> God Bless them, be shaking the landlords hand next time im in


Good grief - if you and those who act like this are the future of this country, God help us. It makes you wonder why MT even bothered to save it!


----------



## DoodlesRule

Starlite said:


> tis indeed  It's one thing being a keyboard warrior, another actually standing up for your views


I might be wrong but think from previous posts you are fairly young with a young child? So you were probably not even affected one way or another when she was PM, if thats the case why the vitriol?


----------



## Starlite

DoodlesRule said:


> You associate yourself with this type of behaviour
> 
> Margaret Thatcher death parties: The Left's sick 'celebration' on Brixton's streets | Mail Online
> 
> How nice


lol I dont live in Brixton nor would i wreck my own city, that is just vandals jumping on the bandwagon! Always nice to laugh at the daily fail tho



tincan said:


> It's not something i would like on my CV ....
> Nor is it something to boast about !!!!
> 
> ho hum


Always stand up for your beliefs even if you are the only one standing.

Also, I think "staunch Thatcher hater" might appeal to alot of employers :lol:


----------



## Starlite

DoodlesRule said:


> I might be wrong but think from previous posts you are fairly young with a young child? So you were probably not even affected one way or another when she was PM, if thats the case why the vitriol?


Her legacy still infiltrates our lives. Saying I have no view on her would be like saying I should have no views on history and its consequences :sosp:


----------



## porps

interesting article here for all you "dont speak ill of the dead" folk to read.

Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

if you cant be arsed reading here is a snippet....



> Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.


----------



## Starlite

porps said:


> interesting article here for all you "dont speak ill of the dead" folk to read.
> 
> Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
> 
> if you cant be arsed reading here is a snippet....


Scratch that, Props said it better!


----------



## DoodlesRule

Starlite said:


> *Her legacy still infiltrates our lives*. Saying I have no view on her would be like saying I should have no views on history and its consequences :sosp:


How exactly, please elaborate and explain why Labour did nothing to change this "legacy" in the intervening years ?


----------



## myshkin

porps said:


> interesting article here for all you "dont speak ill of the dead" folk to read.
> 
> Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
> 
> if you cant be arsed reading here is a snippet....


Things is.....I fully agree with the viewpoint in that article, and I won't be mourning her. I don't think he's arguing that partying to celebrate her death is acceptable though.
No love for the woman here, I'm a Scouser with an Irish working class background - I wouldn't dance on anyone's grave out of respect for myself, if not the deceased.


----------



## Magnus

Starlite said:


> I'd pay good money for you to go into the pub and say that, but its much easier to mutter online isnt it?
> 
> God Bless them, be shaking the landlords hand next time im in


I'd like one of them to walk into my pub and celebrate the death of someone's mother!

As I said SCUM!


----------



## rocco33

DoodlesRule said:


> How exactly, please elaborate and explain why Labour did nothing to change this "legacy" in the intervening years ?


They had three terms to do something about it and did nothing! To me that's a greater betrayal than anything MT did. She did good things and bad things and her policies were a catalyst for the greed that followed (although I that wasn't her intention), that was embraced by and got far worse under Labour.


----------



## DoodlesRule

porps said:


> interesting article here for all you "dont speak ill of the dead" folk to read.
> 
> Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
> 
> if you cant be arsed reading here is a snippet....


Criticise away, nothing wrong with that. But glee that some one is dead and some of vile comments being made, no that is not acceptable in a civilised society.

To say "I for one will not shed any tears" is one thing, but "I am glad, burn in hell, hope she suffered, lets have a party"


----------



## rocco33

porps said:


> interesting article here for all you "dont speak ill of the dead" folk to read.
> 
> Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
> 
> if you cant be arsed reading here is a snippet....


There's a big difference between criticising someone's policies and actions and rejoicing in their death by having parties, trashing places and dancing on someone's grave.


----------



## JAChihuahua

porps said:


> interesting article here for all you "dont speak ill of the dead" folk to read.
> 
> Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
> 
> if you cant be arsed reading here is a snippet....


I posted this earlier in the thread....but twas ignored by those who were in their glass houses.


----------



## rocco33

JAChihuahua said:


> I posted this earlier in the thread....but twas ignored by those who were in their glass houses.


Because it has no relevance to some of the vitriolic, low-life behaviour that has been going on.


----------



## Magnus

I hadn't realised that The Guardian was now setting the rules for society.


----------



## porps

myshkin said:


> Things is.....I fully agree with the viewpoint in that article, and I won't be mourning her. I don't think he's arguing that partying to celebrate her death is acceptable though.
> No love for the woman here, I'm a Scouser with an Irish working class background - I wouldn't dance on anyone's grave out of respect for myself, if not the deceased.


thats fair enough, i can see the distinction you are making but theres still PLENTY of posts in this thread claiming that you simply shouldnt speak ill of the dead.

For me it's quite simple - theres a party this weekend. I like parties, so i will attend. I couldnt honestly say i'd be attending just because its a party to celebrate maggies demise, but that sure as hell wont stop me going either.


----------



## harley bear

I think it is in bad taste to have a party after someone has died...but only because it makes the people having the party look bad. 

I can tell you now when my dad eventually kicks the bucket i shall be having a party and ill only go to his funeral to make sure the bastard is in the box!


----------



## JAChihuahua

rocco33 said:


> Because it has no relevance to some of the vitriolic, low-life behaviour that has been going on.


To be honest it's very difficult to be objective when so personally involved. I hold her ultimately responsible for the deaths of two family members. Their blood may not have been spilled by her but it was spilled because of her. That and the destruction of other family branches and their communities.

I have never hidden my hatred for Thatcher, and i refuse to make myself a hypocrite by pretending to be sorry for her death. I am GLAD shes dead, and i refuse to apologise for my feelings. Thatcher is the only human being i can say i truly hate, it's not an emotion to be taken lightly.

You are entitled to voice your disapproval with my opinion, but i am entitled to hold that opinion and to voice it too.

I don't condone destroying city centres or property, but to celebrate her death? Yeah, i had a glass of red last night to toast the devil in his new recruit. I'm not about to invite her children to toast in celebration, and i doubt I'll be invited to the wake. I do not understand why it's so acceptable to the public to celebrate the death of a dictator from another country, but to criticise and celebrate the death of thatcher makes us scum?

As someone else on this thread said.... I'll stand up for my beliefs, even if i am the only one standing.

Let her be mourned for by those who wish to, but respect those who's lives, families and communities she destroyed by allowing them their chance to criticise and rejoice in the death of the person they hold responsible.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Ok so from the information that was posted, there's one graph that shows that there was a possible connection between sucide rates and her coming into power. But not a definite report for one.

Still working thru the other information.

You do have a right to your opinion but I think respect and tact would go along why.


----------



## JAChihuahua

Respect is earned. I dont remember her showing much respect.


----------



## rocco33

JAChihuahua said:


> To be honest it's very difficult to be objective when so personally involved. I hold her ultimately responsible for the deaths of two family members. Their blood may not have been spilled by her but it was spilled because of her. That and the destruction of other family branches and their communities.
> 
> I have never hidden my hatred for Thatcher, and i refuse to make myself a hypocrite by pretending to be sorry for her death. I am GLAD shes dead, and i refuse to apologise for my feelings. Thatcher is the only human being i can say i truly hate, it's not an emotion to be taken lightly.
> 
> You are entitled to voice your disapproval with my opinion, but i am entitled to hold that opinion and to voice it too.
> 
> I don't condone destroying city centres or property, but to celebrate her death? Yeah, i had a glass of red last night to toast the devil in his new recruit. I'm not about to invite her children to toast in celebration, and i doubt I'll be invited to the wake. I do not understand why it's so acceptable to the public to celebrate the death of a dictator from another country, but to criticise and celebrate the death of thatcher makes us scum?
> 
> As someone else on this thread said.... I'll stand up for my beliefs, even if i am the only one standing.
> 
> Let her be mourned for by those who wish to, but respect those who's lives, families and communities she destroyed by allowing them their chance to criticise and rejoice in the death of the person they hold responsible.


It is difficult to be objective, I understand that, but we are supposed to be an intelligent race!

I'm sorry for your losses, and although I don't know why, I could guess, but won't.

There are plenty of people hurt and who have died under Tony Blair's term in office, due to his policies, but I haven't heard the same vitriol about him? MT did good and bad things, but no other politician at the time, could have brought this country back from the destruction and destitution that it was suffering at the time. Hatred will not change that.


----------



## JANICE199

*I honestly don't understand the mentality that says you shouldn't be glad that who you think was an evil self righteous bigot is dead.
Did she give a second thought to all the people she made suffer? No she didn't. She had her mind set, and didn't give a damn about the consequences.*


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

JAChihuahua said:


> Respect is earned. I dont remember her showing much respect.


That's true in most aspects but my dad raised me in respecting the living and you damn well respected the dead, god help me if acted out I was given a smack in the back of the head, told to sit down and stop being a smart ass.


----------



## JAChihuahua

rocco33 said:


> It is difficult to be objective, I understand that, but we are supposed to be an intelligent race!
> 
> I'm sorry for your losses, and although I don't know why, I could guess, but won't.
> 
> There are plenty of people hurt and who have died under Tony Blair's term in office, due to his policies, but I haven't heard the same vitriol about him? MT did good and bad things, but no other politician at the time, could have brought this country back from the destruction and destitution that it was suffering at the time. Hatred will not change that.


My hate won't bring my family back, or put together their communities. However the sense of satisfaction knowing she is dead and gone. Having another chance to toast their memories and be proud of the stands and the sacrifices they made, and yes to celebrate the demise of the Person responsible is very very cathartic to my soul.


----------



## catz4m8z

wow, this thread has really sorted out the human beings from the scumbags hasnt it?
oh, and if you think that Thatchers death is an excuse to have a party, eat jelly and ice cream or batter policemen and loot charity shops then you are a scumbag!!
If you were personally and adversely affected by her policies then Im sure you are welcome to your feelings. Unfortunately I doubt this applies to the majority.


----------



## porps

catz4m8z said:


> wow, this thread has really sorted out the human beings from the scumbags hasnt it?
> oh, and if you think that Thatchers death is an excuse to have a party, eat jelly and ice cream or batter policemen and loot charity shops then you are a scumbag!!


(in your opinion, which im sure the majority dont care about)


----------



## rocco33

JAChihuahua said:


> My hate won't bring my family back, or put together their communities. However the sense of satisfaction knowing she is dead and gone. Having another chance to toast their memories and be proud of the stands and the sacrifices they made, and yes to celebrate the demise of the Person responsible is very very cathartic to my soul.


How sad  I feel sorry for anyone who has such blinkered bitter hatred eating away at them.


----------



## suewhite

catz4m8z said:


> wow, this thread has really sorted out the human beings from the scumbags hasnt it?
> oh, and if you think that Thatchers death is an excuse to have a party, eat jelly and ice cream or batter policemen and loot charity shops then you are a scumbag!!
> If you were personally and adversely affected by her policies then Im sure you are welcome to your feelings. Unfortunately I doubt this applies to the majority.


Sometimes for some people any excuse will do,harbouring such hate only ruins your life.Some hated her, some loved her, some were indifferent to her she has now gone.


----------



## JAChihuahua

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> That's true in most aspects but my dad raised me in respecting the living and you damn well respected the dead, god help me if acted out I was given a smack in the back of the head, told to sit down and stop being a smart ass.


Lol as was i.....and yet we all toasted her death last night, at home, in private.

The only way i can explain it, is this and it doesn't convey it properly.

A victims family celebrating the death of the murderer. Except this time it's not one family it's thousands of individuals, for a multitude of crimes. It feels like justice has finally been done and for those if us who have lost loved ones, we feel like they can finally rest in peace, and the communities she murdered can finally feel free'er of her legacy.

It's not an eloquent explanation, there is so much more to it than that. It's so emotional, and so close to home i don't have the words to explain.


----------



## rocco33

JAChihuahua said:


> Lol as was i.....and yet we all toasted her death last night, at home, in private.
> 
> The only way i can explain it, is this and it doesn't convey it properly.
> 
> *A victims family celebrating the death of the murderer. Except this time it's not one family it's thousands of individuals, for a multitude of crimes..*


Oh FFS 



> It feels like justice has finally been done and for those if us who have lost loved ones, we feel like they can finally rest in peace, and the communities she murdered can finally feel free'er of her legacy.
> 
> *It's not an eloquent explanation*, there is so much more to it than that. It's so emotional, and so close to home i don't have the words to explain.


No it's not! And I suppose MT was the only one responsible? mmm.....


----------



## Colliebarmy

JAChihuahua said:


> Lol as was i.....and yet we all toasted her death last night, at home, in private.
> 
> The only way i can explain it, is this and it doesn't convey it properly.
> 
> A victims family celebrating the death of the murderer. Except this time it's not one family it's thousands of individuals, for a multitude of crimes. It feels like justice has finally been done and for those if us who have lost loved ones, we feel like they can finally rest in peace, and the communities she murdered can finally feel free'er of her legacy.
> 
> It's not an eloquent explanation, there is so much more to it than that. It's so emotional, and so close to home i don't have the words to explain.


So sad - im welling up

When will the unions admit they cut their own throats?


----------



## JAChihuahua

rocco33 said:


> JAChihuahua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol as was i.....and yet we all toasted her death last night, at home, in private.
> 
> The only way i can explain it, is this and it doesn't convey it properly.
> 
> *A victims family celebrating the death of the murderer. Except this time it's not one family it's thousands of individuals, for a multitude of crimes..[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Oh FFS
> 
> No it's not! And I suppose MT was the only one responsible? mmm.....
> 
> 
> 
> The buck stopped with her.
> 
> I'm not defending the unions and their greed (and yes i am a union member but i can recognise the destruction they caused), and yes scargill and heseltine amongst others bear some of the responsibility....not denying that. Still, the buck stopped with her. Her govt, her responsibility.
Click to expand...


----------



## catz4m8z

porps said:


> (in your opinion, which im sure the majority dont care about)


the fact that you dont find assault and looting objectionable makes you one of the scumbags Im afraid.....and of course you dont care about my opinions (scumbags very rarely care about how their actions effect the human beings...)



JAChihuahua said:


> Lol as was i.....and yet we all toasted her death last night, at home, in private.
> 
> The only way i can explain it, is this and it doesn't convey it properly.
> 
> A victims family celebrating the death of the murderer. Except this time it's not one family it's thousands of individuals, for a multitude of crimes. It feels like justice has finally been done and for those if us who have lost loved ones, we feel like they can finally rest in peace, and the communities she murdered can finally feel free'er of her legacy.
> 
> It's not an eloquent explanation, there is so much more to it than that. It's so emotional, and so close to home i don't have the words to explain.


It sounds like an eloquent explanation to me! I can understand why you would feel this way and dont think for one minute that anyone has the right to tell you how you should feel. She was representative of an era that spelled the death knell to many industries so it must bring up alot of feelings for those affected.


----------



## Colliebarmy

JAChihuahua said:


> My hate won't bring my family back, or put together their communities. However the sense of satisfaction knowing she is dead and gone. Having another chance to toast their memories and be proud of the stands and the sacrifices they made, and yes to celebrate the demise of the Person responsible is very very cathartic to my soul.


Get counselling, she left Downing street over 20 years ago, did Blair change what she did?....no


----------



## JAChihuahua

Colliebarmy said:


> So sad - im welling up
> 
> When will the unions admit they cut their own throats?


I'm not defending the unions in their greed. It's never been part of the debate fir me. The unions did lot of good, but they and scargill lined the coffins.


----------



## cheekyscrip

JANICE199 said:


> *I honestly don't understand the mentality that says you shouldn't be glad that who you think was an evil self righteous bigot is dead.
> Did she give a second thought to all the people she made suffer? No she didn't. She had her mind set, and didn't give a damn about the consequences.*


Ironic...then she saved the dockers and miners in Poland from being crushed by Russian invasion...
and the Gibraltarians, and Falklands...

she really helped to bring Cold War to relatively peaceful end...few of my friends lost lives, many were arrested...or their families...but if it was war...we are might have died...

yet I sympatise with your crisicism of poll tax , or not doing enough for the north and east of Britain...


----------



## skip

JANICE199 said:


> *I honestly don't understand the mentality that says you shouldn't be glad that who you think was an evil self righteous bigot is dead.
> Did she give a second thought to all the people she made suffer? No she didn't. She had her mind set, and didn't give a damn about the consequences.*


I agree with you there and i am not going to apologise for the fact that i couldnt care less about her demise. 
I remember all to well the effects she had on my family and community.

I f you dont respect someone in life how can you respect them in death?


----------



## DoodlesRule

JAChihuahua said:


> Lol as was i.....and yet we all toasted her death last night, at home, in private.
> 
> The only way i can explain it, is this and it doesn't convey it properly.
> 
> A victims family celebrating the death of the murderer. Except this time it's not one family it's thousands of individuals, for a multitude of crimes. It feels like justice has finally been done and for those if us who have lost loved ones, we feel like they can finally rest in peace, and the communities she murdered can finally feel free'er of her legacy.
> 
> It's not an eloquent explanation, there is so much more to it than that. It's so emotional, and so close to home i don't have the words to explain.


It's clear you feel strongly about this, but Margaret Thatcher did not commit any crime and certainly did not murder anyone


----------



## Colliebarmy

catz4m8z said:


> She was representative of an era that spelled the death knell to many industries so it must bring up a lot of feelings for those affected.


yes, the industries loosing millions and having strikes every week

good riddance I say


----------



## Bisbow

I don't know why all the blame is being put at MT's door.

Arther Scargill did much more to ruin families than she did, living in his ivery tower while calling the miners to strike and letting the families suffer He wanted to rule the country and lead us all to distruction.

No-one has villified him I notice, will these who hate MT dance on his grave as well. I bet the answer is no.

Only her strengh of will saved us from a fate worse than Russia


----------



## JAChihuahua

DoodlesRule said:


> It's clear you feel strongly about this, but Margaret Thatcher did not commit any crime and certainly did not murder anyone


In your opinion


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

just let the woman have her dignity in death - and get over it x


----------



## DoodlesRule

JAChihuahua said:


> In your opinion


No sorry in fact


----------



## JANICE199

DoodlesRule said:


> It's clear you feel strongly about this, but Margaret Thatcher did not commit any crime and certainly did not murder anyone


*With respect Doodles she might not have pulled the trigger but imo what she did to many, she might as well have done.*


----------



## Colliebarmy

Bisbow said:


> I don't know why all the blame is being put at MT's door.
> 
> Arther Scargill did much more to ruin families than she did, living in his ivery tower while calling the miners to strike and letting the families suffer He wanted to rule the country and lead us all to distruction.
> 
> No-one has villified him I notice, will these who hate MT dance on his grave as well. I bet the answer is no.
> 
> Only her strengh of will saved us from a fate worse than Russia


Scargill is STILL in his Ivory tower................Leech

No better than the MP's



> It was customary for retired union leaders to have a house effectively bought for them near the union's London office, to be used not only while in office, but after retirement as well.
> 
> But Mr Scargill also had a mortgage paid for him by the NUM on a house in Yorkshire and it was also known at the time of his election that the union was likely to be moving its headquarters outside London, which it duly did.
> 
> When Mr Scargill first occupied the flat the NUM numbered several hundred thousand members. Now it has less than 2,000, all of whom are paying around £20 a year for their former leader's housing.
> 
> The rent and associated expenses were paid by the union until 2011, except for a period between 1985 and 1991 when Mr Scargill met them.


Arthur Scargill ordered to pay rent as he loses fight to have union pay for London flat for life - UK Politics - UK - The Independent


----------



## rocco33

JAChihuahua said:


> I'm not defending the unions in their greed. It's never been part of the debate fir me. The unions did lot of good, but they and scargill lined the coffins.


They brought down two governments before MT, one of which was Labour. They had their own agenda, they were bankrupting a country and the mining industry was not only a dying industry but being subsidised at unaffordable levels.

Many paid the price for the union's arrogance, but someone had to stand up - how many more governments should they have been able to bring down in the pursuit of their own aims?


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect Doodles she might not have pulled the trigger but imo what she did to many, she might as well have done.*


annnnnnd vilifying her in death can make this all different, of course not, allow her the respect of any dead person - if you cant then walk away as this vitriol is making you bitter as the saying goes "you cant make a dead man repent" x

I have no opinion of her - just that I am mature enough to show her the respect and her family do in her death x

and thats not directly aimed at you Janice x but I used your quote as an example x


----------



## JAChihuahua

I have made my own reasons for my feelings clear and do not want to be accused of trying for the sympathy vote...thats not how debates work so colliebarmy you won't get me to rise to the bait. My post was personal but in an effort to illustrate perhaps why do many people feel so strongly against thatcher and all she stood for.

Suffice to say that i do not judge you all on your own opinions, and respect your right to them. I would hope you also respect my right to my own.


----------



## porps

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> *vilifying her in death can make this all different, of course not, allow her the respect of any dead person*


i assume this applies to hitler too? To the 9/11 bombers? To jack the ripper? Now that they are dead we must respect them regardless of the actions they carried out while alive?


----------



## Magnus

JAChihuahua said:


> In your opinion


No. It's a fact.

You insist on alluding to some deaths in your family which you want to blame Maggie for, as you haven'r said I'm going to make an assumption that these people were engaged in either mining or another primary industry and lost their jobs.

If that is the case it definitely isn't murder and it's certainly not Maggie Thatcher's fault.


----------



## Magnus

porps said:


> i assume this applies to hitler too? To the 9/11 bombers? To jack the ripper? Now that they are dead we must respect them regardless of the actions they carried out while alive?


They committed crimes. Maggie Thatcher did not. As far as I can tell the only Prime Minister to have committed any crime is Tony Blair but he got away with it.


----------



## DoodlesRule

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect Doodles she might not have pulled the trigger but imo what she did to many, she might as well have done.*


But Janice you yourself have admitted the union agenda and indeed the reason for the miners strike was to bring the elected government down - basically anarchy! So she was determined not to let that happen and stop the possibility in the future, crush the unions if you like.

Cause & effect - if the unions had stuck to what they were supposed to do and not let greed and lust for power take over things may have been different.

Most of big industry was dying on its feet, we produced shoddy expensive stuff and were unreliable because someone was always on strike. No one asked all the other people if they minded constantly being laid off work, without pay because unions they were not members of were holding the reins to the country.

I have no idea if she chose to go so far because it was necessary or out of spite, but if mining, steel, ship building etc were still viable industries then Labour would have started them up again wouldn't they?


----------



## Magnus

We had ailing industries being pushed further and further towards collapse by the Unions. Red Robbo, Jack Jones, Scargill and the like used their clammy grip on the workforces to impose undemocratic strike action. They had brought down Heath's goverment and in 1975 with inflation at 27.6% the Labour goverment realised that they had to get it under control and put into place austerity measures in the form of wage restraints. (Like the new lot are having to do now). The unions chiefs reacted to this by forcing more strikes; bodies could not be buried, rubbish was piled up in the streets, power cuts were commonplace - they held the country to ransom and Labour caved in. We went cap in hand to the IMF to bail us out. The poor man of Europe was at death's door.
Maggie inherited that state of affairs in 1979 and she fought them. They tried to get rid of her and failed, she was a tougher prospect than anything they'd faced before. 
The industries you mentioned by now were limping along only by way of huge subsidies paid for by us, they were uncompetitive and rife with self-serving union chiefs feathering their own nests (Scargill is still fighting for a free second home paid for by the NUM!!)
She might have been a bit of a cow, a tough old bird but by God she is exactly what this country needed at the time if we were to avoid complete meltdown. She allowed hundreds of thousands of people to buy their own council houses (at a third of their value) to escape a life of debt, to enable them to get mortgages, to start businesses, to make something of themselves. 
She, along with Reagan, worked with Gorbachev to end communism, to bring a divided Berlin together. Ask the Polish if she was good, she saved them from a war with the Red Army and saved thousands of lives in doing so - unlike Blair who spent lives like pennies to buy himself a wealthy retirement plan.
If you are going to criticise this woman then do it from a basis of fact, don't just hop onto the bandwagon driven about by the leftist workshy masses that hated the fact that she rewarded graft and penalised the lazy. 
Ask the Falkland Islanders if she was a cow. Speak to Americans about how they viewed her. She turned this country from laughing stock to a globally recognised power, from a rusty bucket of has been industries to a financial world leader. 
She didn't bow down before the Eurocrats, she maintained our independence and made us the envy of Europe with our retained independent currency and the power of veto. The value of our pound wasn't decided in Frankfurt or Brussels but in London.

To understand why she was so very good for us you have to know how very bad it was before her and just how far we had fallen.


----------



## JAChihuahua

Magnus said:


> No. It's a fact.
> 
> You insist on alluding to some deaths in your family which you want to blame Maggie for, as you haven'r said I'm going to make an assumption that these people were engaged in either mining or another primary industry and lost their jobs.
> 
> If that is the case it definitely isn't murder and it's certainly not Maggie Thatcher's fault.


I have said, in this or another Maggie thread, i see no point in repeating myself. However just as your so curious those who died were a chernobyl affected farmer and a falklands victim. Yes we had miners in the family who lost jobs send communities destroyed, but they were not who died.


----------



## Julesky

What about the 323 souls on board the ship belgrano


She gave the order- they knew they would be drowned.

323.

Politicians are supposed to talk.

The ship was drowned in anger.

Now this is answer to murderer. Same as Blair. Same as Bush. 

War crimes.

Different to open battle
Murder


----------



## Magnus

JAChihuahua said:


> I have said, in this or another Maggie thread, i see no point in repeating myself. However just as your so curious those who died were a chernobyl affected farmer and a falklands victim. Yes we had miners in the family who lost jobs send communities destroyed, but they were not who died.


So a meltdown of a nuclear reactor thousands of miles away and an uppity Argentinian General make Maggie a murderer? Sorry, explain.


----------



## porps

Magnus said:


> They committed crimes. Maggie Thatcher did not. As far as I can tell the only Prime Minister to have committed any crime is Tony Blair but he got away with it.


doesnt matter.
The post i was responding to (and many others on here) seem to think that as soon as someone dies you automatically must respect them. If thats the case then you must extend that to all the dead, not just those who you happen to like.


----------



## DogLover1981

Hitler? I think he was an evil man but I'm not rejoicing about his death. I didn't take pleasure from the death of the hijackers.


----------



## Valanita

*RIP* Maggie.


----------



## Julesky

Valanita said:


> *RIP* Maggie.


I love your bird at your name btw- keep meaning to say when I see you post- v.nice 
The kingfisher, although the raptor lower down is nice too


----------



## DoodlesRule

JAChihuahua said:


> I have said, in this or another Maggie thread, i see no point in repeating myself. However just as your so curious those who died were a chernobyl affected farmer and a falklands victim. Yes we had miners in the family who lost jobs send communities destroyed, but they were not who died.


Am trying to be sensitive to your feelings but struggling to understand. Margaret Thatcher had zilch to do with chernobyl, why don't you blame the head of the country it was in for their dire nuclear safety? The Falkands - Argentina invaded so why don't you blame the head of Argentina at that time?


----------



## Magnus

Julesky said:


> What about the 323 souls on board the ship belgrano
> She gave the order- they knew they would be drowned.
> 323.
> Politicians are supposed to talk.
> The ship was drowned in anger.
> Now this is answer to murderer. Same as Blair. Same as Bush.
> War crimes.
> Different to open battle
> Murder


It has been proved that the Belgrano was heading back into the 200 mile exclusion zone armed with Exocet missiles. Also on 23rd April - 9 days before the Belgrano was sunk, Britain had told Argentina (via Switzerland as mediator) the following:
_any approach on the part of Argentine warships, including submarines, naval auxiliaries or military aircraft, which could amount to a threat to interfere with the mission of the British Forces in the South Atlantic will encounter the appropriate response_

Both sides recognised that this had in effect turned the entire South Atlantic into a battle ground. When the task force arrived from Britain it was potentially caught between an Argentinian carrier and the Belgrano and thousands of British lives were therefore at risk. The deed was done.

It was war. Argentina started it. Maggie was strong enough to deal with it. Thank God for her.


----------



## Magnus

porps said:


> doesnt matter.
> The post i was responding to (and many others on here) seem to think that as soon as someone dies you automatically must respect them. If thats the case then you must extend that to all the dead, not just those who you happen to like.


Of course it matters. Don't be silly.


----------



## Julesky

Magnus said:


> It has been proved that the Belgrano was heading back into the 200 mile exclusion zone armed with Exocet missiles. Also on 23rd April - 9 days before the Belgrano was sunk, Britain had told Argentina (via Switzerland as mediator) the following:
> _any approach on the part of Argentine warships, including submarines, naval auxiliaries or military aircraft, which could amount to a threat to interfere with the mission of the British Forces in the South Atlantic will encounter the appropriate response_
> 
> Both sides recognised that this had in effect turned the entire South Atlantic into a battle ground. When the task force arrived from Britain it was potentially caught between an Argentinian carrier and the Belgrano and thousands of British lives were therefore at risk. The deed was done.
> 
> It was war. Argentina started it. Maggie was strong enough to deal with it. Thank God for her.


It hasn't been proved- just because the government says so doesn't mean it was proved. And a treaty had been set up- just 'not looked at'
Hmmm sure.

I doubt us minions will ever know.

I still don't agree with celebrating her demise- but let's face it... between the argies and calling Mandella a terrorist... puts her up there with the best of them, bush and blair etc. etc.


----------



## JAChihuahua

Magnus said:


> So a meltdown of a nuclear reactor thousands of miles away and an uppity Argentinian General make Maggie a murderer? Sorry, explain.


Seriously ?

You want me to go into the full details of the 12months without compensation for the farmers, who were stranded on their farms with the decomposing bodies of the stock that had taken generations to build, and the suicide that followed losing everything. Or perhaps the loss of a young man killed when hostilities intensified in the aftermath of the belgrano leaving 3 children without a father and for a part if the conflict that wouldn't have occurred had thatcher not sunk the belgrano sending another 300 men to their deaths.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Magnus said:


> Of course it matters. Don't be silly.


LOL "don't be silly" is such a great put-down, so much better than insults, swearing etc


----------



## Goblin

DoodlesRule said:


> Margaret Thatcher had zilch to do with chernobyl


UK Farmers didn't get subsidies from what I understand to cope with the fallout. Other than that can't remember details or how bad it was.

Simon Weston (suffered 46% burns on his body in the falklands) actually says the falklands war was the right thing to do and MT was the right leader at the time. A veteran who physically suffered and probably still suffers.


----------



## Magnus

It has been confirmed by Switzerland that the cable extending the threat outside of the exclusion zone was sent on 23rd April, 9 days before the Belgrano was sunk.
That's what you call proof. You know the Swiss, they don't like to take sides!


----------



## Julesky

Magnus said:


> It has been confirmed by Switzerland that the cable extending the threat outside of the exclusion zone was sent on 23rd April, 9 days before the Belgrano was sunk.
> That's what you call proof. *You know the Swiss, they don't like to take sides*!


True story- hahahaha. made me chuckle. Nice one

Anyway back on (or rather off topic still) Wikipedia is not a source!!! Anyone can write anything on it!!


----------



## Julesky

If you could justify her stance on Mandella too , that'd be great

You know terrorist and all, not like the colonialists


----------



## JANICE199

DoodlesRule said:


> But Janice you yourself have admitted the union agenda and indeed the reason for the miners strike was to bring the elected government down - basically anarchy! So she was determined not to let that happen and stop the possibility in the future, crush the unions if you like.
> 
> Cause & effect - if the unions had stuck to what they were supposed to do and not let greed and lust for power take over things may have been different.
> 
> Most of big industry was dying on its feet, we produced shoddy expensive stuff and were unreliable because someone was always on strike. No one asked all the other people if they minded constantly being laid off work, without pay because unions they were not members of were holding the reins to the country.
> 
> I have no idea if she chose to go so far because it was necessary or out of spite, but if mining, steel, ship building etc were still viable industries then Labour would have started them up again wouldn't they?


*To be fair to the workers/ strikers, if they were producing shoddy work, do you not think that should have been addressed by the government? Had it been then things would/could have turned out differently.
My father was a shipwright but i never knew him to strike. lol He would have a fit i think if he knew my views.
I was listening to a Welsh miner on the radio today, and hand on heart i could have cried.
I don't hate MT, but i hate what she did.
I might add, the government we have now will get us into more trouble. And i believe it will be because Cameron has every intention of " trying " to be another MT.*


----------



## Magnus

JAChihuahua said:


> Seriously ?
> 
> You want me to go into the full details of the 12months without compensation for the farmers, who were stranded on their farms with the decomposing bodies of the stock that had taken generations to build, and the suicide that followed losing everything. Or perhaps the loss of a young man killed when hostilities intensified in the aftermath of the belgrano leaving 3 children without a father and for a part if the conflict that wouldn't have occurred had thatcher not sunk the belgrano sending another 300 men to their deaths.


I'm genuinely sorry for your losses but your reasoning is twisted totally out of focus; possibly because the real "culprits" are thousands of miles away.


----------



## Magnus

JANICE199 said:


> *To be fair to the workers/ strikers, if they were producing shoddy work, do you not think that should have been addressed by the government? Had it been then things would/could have turned out differently.
> My father was a shipwright but i never knew him to strike. lol He would have a fit i think if he knew my views.
> I was listening to a Welsh miner on the radio today, and hand on heart i could have cried.
> I don't hate MT, but i hate what she did.
> I might add, the government we have now will get us into more trouble. And i believe it will be because Cameron has every intention of " trying " to be another MT.*


Talking about twisted out of focus......


----------



## DoodlesRule

JANICE199 said:


> *To be fair to the workers/ strikers, if they were producing shoddy work, do you not think that should have been addressed by the government? Had it been then things would/could have turned out differently.
> My father was a shipwright but i never knew him to strike. lol He would have a fit i think if he knew my views.
> I was listening to a Welsh miner on the radio today, and hand on heart i could have cried.
> I don't hate MT, but i hate what she did.
> I might add, the government we have now will get us into more trouble. And i believe it will be because Cameron has every intention of " trying " to be another MT.*


If we put aside the shoddy work bit (can't really produce a shoddy ship or coal) - ship building had been retracting for years, if no one is buying no point in producing. Very sad for the craftsmen who did a good honest days work for many years but if the market is gone what can you do.

I don't think it was the individual miners but the unions using them as pawns in their power struggle but even without seams were running out or it was no longer cost effective. The unions would never have accepted pay freeze let alone pay cuts so the end was all to clear to see


----------



## porps

Magnus said:


> Of course it matters. Don't be silly.


what a well reasoned argument you make! :dita:

Statement 1 - All people deserve respect after death
Statement 2 - Hitler was a person
Statement 3 - Hitler is dead.
Statement 4 - Therefore hitler deserves respects.

If you disagree with 4 then you must surely disagree with 1 too.


----------



## rocco33

> if they were producing shoddy work, do you not think that should have been addressed by the government?


You're absolutely right, Janice. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before  What a brilliant idea. Anyone who does shoddy work should be sent to the Houses of Parliament to get sorted


----------



## rocco33

> the government we have now will get us into more trouble.


And what of the Labour government that got us into trouble in the first place


----------



## JANICE199

Goblin said:


> UK Farmers didn't get subsidies from what I understand to cope with the fallout. Other than that can't remember details or how bad it was.
> 
> Simon Weston (suffered 46% burns on his body in the falklands) actually says the falklands war was the right thing to do and MT was the right leader at the time. A veteran who physically suffered and probably still suffers.


*I agree the Falklands war was right. As much as i hate wars. But they were British people and they needed our help.*


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

porps said:


> i assume this applies to hitler too? To the 9/11 bombers? To jack the ripper? Now that they are dead we must respect them regardless of the actions they carried out while alive?


really!! there is no comparison what so ever - intentionally cleansing the Jews to fulfill your ideologies, murdering prostitutes for sexual gratification this is not a fair slant at being dogmatic in policy.

All prime ministers (kings and queens for that matter/heads of state) have made decisions that have affected some in one way or another, good and bad x


----------



## JANICE199

rocco33 said:


> You're absolutely right, Janice. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before  What a brilliant idea. Anyone who does shoddy work should be sent to the Houses of Parliament to get sorted


*lmao i KNOW i'm right. You can take the pee as much as you like, but all you will achieve is getting this thread closed. Well done you.*


----------



## porps

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> really!! there is no comparison what so ever - intentionally cleansing the Jews to fulfill your ideologies, murdering prostitutes for sexual gratification this is not a fair slant at being dogmatic in policy.
> 
> All prime ministers (kings and queens for that matter/heads of state) have made decisions that have affected some in one way or another, good and bad x


i am not comparing their actions but if you'd like to pretend that i am so that you can ignore the logic then i cant stop you from doing that. i dont think i can put it in simpler terms than i already have so can only assume that you are puposefully ignoring the actual point.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

porps said:


> i am not comparing their actions but if you'd like to pretend that i am so that you can ignore the logic then you are free to do so.


then there is no comparison then - as people are complaining that she should not be respected in death due to her actions!


----------



## JANICE199

DoodlesRule said:


> If we put aside the shoddy work bit (can't really produce a shoddy ship or coal) - ship building had been retracting for years, if no one is buying no point in producing. Very sad for the craftsmen who did a good honest days work for many years but if the market is gone what can you do.
> 
> I don't think it was the individual miners but the unions using them as pawns in their power struggle but even without seams were running out or it was no longer cost effective. The unions would never have accepted pay freeze let alone pay cuts so the end was all to clear to see


*The miner i heard on the radio today was saying the mines WERE making money.
There is one thing that springs to mind in this debate, and that's how the media let us know what they think we should know.*


----------



## porps

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> then there is no comparison then - as people are complaining that she should not be respected in death due to her actions!


but you concede that it is not right to respect people simply because they are dead? that the actions of their life SHOULD influence the way they are remebered after death? as that is my point, nothing to do with wether maggie and hitlers actions are comparable.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

porps said:


> but you concede that it is not right to respect people simply because they are dead? that the actions of their life SHOULD influence the way they are remebered after death? as that is my point, nothing to do with wether maggie and hitlers actions are comparable.


I never said that all should be respected - quote from me on another thread

*All Prime ministers who are in office at the time of war are entitled to a ceremonial funeral, as they are know as a War minister, this also means that Blair is also entitled - its part of our constitution x

I have n feelings on the matter, neither love nor loathe just show the respect that the departed deserved, she was no Saddam, Pol pot or 'ahem him of Germanic origin'!!

dignity x*

which I stand by - so not too sure what I am supposed to concede tbh x


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

JANICE199 said:


> *The miner i heard on the radio today was saying the mines WERE making money.
> There is one thing that springs to mind in this debate, and that's how the media let us know what they think we should know.*


and that whom ever the media sees are in favour at the time - as if you are in the dog house thats when the bad press comes out, when the sun shines out of the orifice then they love you - also different press support different ideals/partys x

(big example the Sun and Hillsborough)


----------



## DoodlesRule

JANICE199 said:


> *The miner i heard on the radio today was saying the mines WERE making money.
> There is one thing that springs to mind in this debate, and that's how the media let us know what they think we should know.*


Can't claim to know all the ins & outs as I was only 18 when she first became PM. A simplistic view of how I think things were - gas & electricity nationalised back then, they paid whatever for the coal from the nationalised coal industry effectively meaning it was subsidised - expensive all round making other industries equally expensive. Unions used that to control the country by striking for whatever they wanted.

Once gas & electric were privatised they were free to get coal from cheaper sources so no one wanted the british coal. Presumably she privatised to break the monopoly and power of the unions, but without change the country would have been bankrupt.

If she did it just to break the miners/unions and it was still a viable business then why didn't labour revert to how it was before once they got back into office?


----------



## porps

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> I never said that all should be respected
> [/B]
> 
> which I stand by - so not too sure what I am supposed to concede tbh x


i know you didnt. but the post which i quoted, did.
The fact that you decided to jump on me as though i had claimed that hitler and maggies actions were the same is not something i control, i made myself quite clear and cannot be held responsible for peoples poor reading comprehension.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

porps said:


> i know you didnt. but the post which i quoted, did.
> The fact that you decided to jump on me as though i had claimed that hitler and maggies actions were the same is not something i control, i made myself quite clear and cannot be held responsible for peoples poor reading comprehension.


nope no jumping here - just responding hey di ho x


----------



## JANICE199

DoodlesRule said:


> Can't claim to know all the ins & outs as I was only 18 when she first became PM. A simplistic view of how I think things were - gas & electricity nationalised back then, they paid whatever for the coal from the nationalised coal industry effectively meaning it was subsidised - expensive all round making other industries equally expensive. Unions used that to control the country by striking for whatever they wanted.
> 
> Once gas & electric were privatised they were free to get coal from cheaper sources so no one wanted the british coal. Presumably she privatised to break the monopoly and power of the unions, but without change the country would have been bankrupt.
> 
> If she did it just to break the miners/unions and it was still a viable business then why didn't labour revert to how it was before once they got back into office?


*It was probably too late bye then.I believe she could have done more for the industries of this country. But she chose to fight the workers instead of listening to them. Nothing new there i guess with any party.*


----------



## DoodlesRule

JANICE199 said:


> *It was probably too late bye then.I believe she could have done more for the industries of this country. But she chose to fight the workers instead of listening to them. Nothing new there i guess with any party.*


Don't think there is that much too choose between any of them to be honest, whether it was tory, labour, unions all had their own agenda.

Well going off to cook now and think about something other than strikes and Mrs Thatcher. Thank you for debating - we may not agree but we play nicely


----------



## mollydog07

Cant remember too much about her era,the poll tax inflicted on scotland caused riots,what i will say in her favour was enabling people to buy their house,,,,mines was a steal 4apt just over 11k....bought it cheaper than renting! although seeing the misery and conflict with the destruction of workforces in scotland was heartbreaking.springburn a once bustling area became a ghost town.....it has now declined even further! chemists,bookies,payday loans,charity shops....well done conservatives.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Mrs T, let people buy their council houses, but wouldn't let the council use the money to build new ones, so now there aren't enough homes for people who really need one.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

Happy Paws said:


> Mrs T, let people buy their council houses, but wouldn't let the council use the money to build new ones, so now there aren't enough homes for people who really need one.


but those who live in ones that have 3 beds and are on their own refuse to give them up for families and downsize and are now bemoaning the bedroom tax - we can go round and round in circles with the good the bad and the ugly - no one is being forced to join in with the ceremony - I for one wont watch it, but then did not watch Di's as it does not interest me x


----------



## suewhite

I really dont think we can blame all the woes of the country on MT we have had Major, Blair and Brown and Cameron and a few in between since then which should have been ample time to put a few things straight.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

suewhite said:


> I really dont think we can blame all the woes of the country on MT we have had Major, Blair and Brown and Cameron and a few in between since then which should have been ample time to put a few things straight.


and those prior - have to agree there are worse out there tbh x


----------



## Lel

I genuinely think that some of the people who are saying they want to have a party to celebrate her death, want to dance on her grave, and hated her with a passion etc have got some serious issues which are not going to be resolved and in some cases appear incapable of rational or logical discussion.

We *supposedly* have a civilised society. We live in a democracy. We vote for our leader. If we are not happy with how they run the country, then at the next general election we can vote for a different party.

If we feel they have let us down then we can celebrate *when they lose their position of power*. What on earth is there to celebrate after they are no longer in government?!

I do not agree with how Tony Blair ran the country. I disagree with almost everything that happened under his rein. Gordon Brown was, in my view, no better, therefore I was pleased when the running of the country changed hands. (We won't get into the issues with the current government and that is another subject altogether!!) Now they are not in charge, what difference does it make to me whether they are alive or dead?! I really do not understand why people are bothered by this.

If they were to die, I might say, "I don't agree with the policies they put in place". This is a million miles from "I hate her, glad she is dead, will be buried close enough to dance on her grave". etc

There are not many people in the history of the world which warrant the sort if hatred displayed in this thread. As he has been mentioned already, I will say that Hitler is, in my opinion, one of them.

Generally speaking, when most balanced people hear that someone they disliked is dead, they would probably not express their joy at the death.

I am shocked at some of the comments made in this thread and am pleased that I do not personally know anyone who would spout such vile hatred for a person they do not even know.


----------



## catz4m8z

At least we dont live in North Korea!:thumbup:


----------



## mollydog07

Happy Paws said:


> Mrs T, let people buy their council houses, but wouldn't let the council use the money to build new ones, so now there aren't enough homes for people who really need one.


True....i sold mine,once my children up and left house was to big....and did make a wacking profit!...helped my son set up buisness with profit.i rent again it suits me dont have the income to pay for new roofs,cladding,re-wiring etc.wether people see this as good or bad will be because of personal experience,my home was £300p/m rent....£160 to buy.


----------



## Happy Paws2

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> and those prior - have to agree there are worse out there tbh x


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Magnus

porps said:


> what a well reasoned argument you make! :dita:
> 
> Statement 1 - All people deserve respect after death
> Statement 2 - Hitler was a person
> Statement 3 - Hitler is dead.
> Statement 4 - Therefore hitler deserves respects.
> 
> If you disagree with 4 then you must surely disagree with 1 too.


If you change 1 to All people who have not been criminals deserve respect after death.........

Arguing with you is like trying to polish a turd....... A waste of time and energy.
:dita:


----------



## Magnus

Julesky said:


> If you could justify her stance on Mandella too , that'd be great
> 
> You know terrorist and all, not like the colonialists


He blew people up.


----------



## tincan

Magnus said:


> He blew people up.


I nearly came in with this Magnus , People forget to easily ... However i did not want to distract from the thread


----------



## porps

Magnus said:


> If you change 1 to All people who have not been criminals deserve respect after death.........


which is exactly my point - your actions in life determine how you will be remembered in death.



Magnus said:


> Arguing with you is like trying to polish a turd....... A waste of time and energy.
> :dita:


Is that the best you can do? How old are you? 12?


----------



## Guest

porps said:


> which is exactly my point - your actions in life determine how you will be remembered in death.


And apart from porps being Gestapo in a former life?


----------



## porps

jon bda said:


> And apart from porps being Gestapo in a former life?


we only get one life.


----------



## Guest

porps said:


> we only get one life.


I bet you own a Landy...


----------



## porps

jon bda said:


> I bet you own a Landy...


how much are you willing to wager?


----------



## Guest

porps said:


> how much are you willing to wager?


A big hug???


----------



## porps

jon bda said:


> A big hug???


then you owe me a big hug.


----------



## Starlite

An obituary of sorts.

It's been a funny sort of day. And I feel like crying. But I don't know what for. Like so many I'd vowed to mark the passing of Mrs. Thatcher with a party, and sworn to urinate on her grave should an opportunity arise. But I don't feel like doing that now. An old woman died. That's what they do, old women. They die. It's not a happy occasion, and neither is it a sad occasion. It's what's supposed to happen. Otherwise the world would be littered with skinbags full of splintered calcium, crying out in pain through eternity. The death of the elderly is not a tragedy.

And as has been written eloquently by others, unless you're a guest at her funeral then you shouldn't feel the need to be respectful either. That's true of anyone, I'd say. If you hated her you hated her. Why not say it. She can't hear you. And she didn't care what you thought when she was alive. It's also important to make sure history records the people's true feelings about her as a politician. It might even be undemocratic to stay silent at times like these. Be heard.

What I feel about Thatcher as a politician is how I feel about any adult who harms others. That might be what's making tears gather just behind my face, deciding what they want to do with themselves. The person that has died today was my abuser. Good riddance. But not just mine. The people who suffered under her ideology and actions were the victims of a national abuse. A sustained campaign of relentless cruelty because the way we wanted to live was not the way she wanted us to live. Our lives didn't suit her purpose. And so she crushed us.

Margaret Thatcher and her Conservative government crushed workers in every conceivable vital industry. They crushed the poor, the sick, the elderly and the unemployed. They crushed immigrants and the children of immigrants. They crushed gay people. They crushed asylum seekers. They crushed protestors. They crushed us all. All of us.

And again the tears regroup and think about the quickest exit.

When I was seven or eight years old, my mum took me to the statue of Emmeline Pankhurst in Westminster. And I watched her fight through sobs as she spoke to a lump of bronze on a plinth. "We did it," she said. "But this probably wasn't what you had in mind."

In later years I've argued that Thatcher's victory in politics is what women's suffrage was for, whether she'd like that conclusion or not. It can be chalked up as a win, regardless of the consequences. Equal rights means the right to be an ******** too.

But what my mother felt was betrayed. Abandoned. Helpless. Crushed.

We were really poor. My dad made the foolish mistake of getting a job in the public sector. He worked for the DHSS. I think perhaps the policy was to keep the pay low so they could sympathise with claimants. I didn't want for anything but that's because I didn't ask for anything they couldn't afford.

We lived first in a bungalow my parents rented from the church (where they were also caretakers to bring in a little extra). When I was about 12, the bungalow was condemned. It had dry rot, damp, mould, six inches of water under the floorboards and rats in the wall cavities. And the occasional slug (I once put my school shirt on, only to find one was attached and was being squashed against my back.)

After forcing the church to evict us so that we were technically homeless, we got rehoused on a nearby council estate. It felt like luxury by comparison (something I hear from so many who were rescued by the miracle of social housing). My mum got a job and things should've been easier. But my dad admitted we were massively in debt and had been for years, so there still wasn't much to go round.

I'm not going to tell the story of my life. It's just that… growing up like that. Growing up poor under Thatcher, I know my place. To have been poor during the period Thatcher was in office was to be the lowest of the low. My family were not part of her vision for Britain. The fact that any spare time my mum and dad had was spent in voluntary work - in youth clubs, and disability groups, in adult literacy and local coffee mornings… all those tiny little things that make society work. They meant nothing to her. She didn't believe in society. I can't forgive her for that.

As a child I knew I would die and how I would die. It would be in a nuclear war, because Thatcher allowed American missiles to be deployed on our soil. No child should grow up thinking they're going to die.

And as a teenage pacifist I watched her wage a war she was warned about before it even began. And I watched how acting too late and causing the deaths of 907 people won her an election. And as a student I stood with so many others in Trafalgar Square, protesting the Poll Tax (one of her lesser offences, but one that affected so many). I watched the police break up a peaceful protest with violence (I'd never believed the reports from the miners that this happened. I couldn't believe such a thing). I watched them charge into the people quietly listening to the speeches, causing them to flee down every road - only to be forced back by horses and batons. I watched a protest deliberately turned into chaos and knew it was done at her command. The next day she condemned the lawlessness and ignored the democracy of so many people demanding fair treatment.

I don't feel like crying anymore. What we have now isn't Thatcherism. It isn't even Conservatism. We have an unelected government, populated by a self-interested ruling class. They believe in nothing but their own profit. 
And I already feel crushed.
_
Tim Chipping_


----------



## Guest

porps said:


> then you owe me a big hug.


Okay then, still think the Hitler reference sucks ass though...


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## porps

jon bda said:


> Okay then, still think the Hitler reference sucks ass though...


as is your right. I still dont care what you think, as is my right.


----------



## Guest

porps said:


> as is your right. I still dont care what you think, as is my right.


I think the number he killed probably equates to the number out of work under Maggie...


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## MoggyBaby

mollydog07 said:


> Cant remember too much about her era,the poll tax inflicted on scotland caused riots,what i will say in her favour was enabling people to buy their house,,,,mines was a steal 4apt just over 11k....bought it cheaper than renting! although seeing the misery and conflict with the destruction of workforces in scotland was heartbreaking.*springburn a once bustling area became a ghost town.....it has now declined even further! chemists,bookies,payday loans,charity shops....well done conservatives*.


With all due respect, Springburn was on its way to being a sh!thole before Maggie came along. It was never going to win any awards for being 'Prettiest Area in Glasgow' was it???

Furthermore, there was a Labour govt for 15yrs and Labour councils in Scotland for longer than that, so why have none of them invested the money to regenerate the area? It's been managed with plenty of others - in Glasgow, in Scotland and in the UK.

There comes a point where your 'arguments' against Maggie are failing to hold any water.


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## nutty

Goblin said:


> Still doesn't mean they voted for her though. Just the alternative was worse. Maybe that's why one of her legacies is New Labour. The majority would never accept old labour.


What a load of utter rubbish.


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## porps

jon bda said:


> I think the number he killed probably equates to the number out of work under Maggie...


so what? you're still completely missing the point.


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## Guest

porps said:


> so what? you're still completely missing the point.


Your upset because Maggie didn't send the Welsh or the Scots to the chambers? What colour are your hair and your eyes?


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## tincan

jon bda said:


> Your upset because Maggie didn't send the Welsh or the Scots to the chambers? What colour are your hair and your eyes?


....... Oh be Jesus don't be going there .....

All rehead / blue -eyed folk ... an assumption on my part here


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## Guest

tincan said:


> ....... Oh be Jesus don't be going there .....
> 
> All rehead / blue -eyed folk ... an assumption on my part here


I'm just trying to work out where porps is coming from...not getting far...


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## cheekyscrip

jon bda said:


> I'm just trying to work out where porps is coming from...not getting far...


lets say he is an eager supporter of legalising weed and all other drugs...look at cannabis thread jon...(promise..you may like it...)

hmmm...is that an answer?:ihih:


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## Pupcakes

I feel sad that people can laugh and party over the fact someone has died. Regardless of what she did, I can think of a hell of a lot more people who have died who have been genuinely evil and no-one threw parties over their deaths.

My dad hates her. I didn't grow up under her reign, but regardless, at the end of it all she was an old, ill woman. I work with elderly people with dementia and they are very vulnerable and confused. She may have screwed people over in the past, but who on here hasn't? I've been a cow in the past before and made bad descions that have affected other people.

Something very upsetting about people celebrating the death of an old woman.


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## porps

jon bda said:


> Your upset because Maggie didn't send the Welsh or the Scots to the chambers? What colour are your hair and your eyes?


i'm not upset at all, i'm a bit dissapointed by your lack of intelligence and inability to comprehend what you read, but im not upset by it. I have explained myself but im not gonna do it again, if you dont get it by now you're never going to.



cheekyscrip said:


> lets say he is an eager supporter of legalising weed and all other drugs...look at cannabis thread jon...(promise..you may like it...)
> 
> hmmm...is that an answer?:ihih:


no its not an answer, its just you acting like a 12 year old, unable to accept that not everyone shares your uninformed opinions.


----------



## Guest

porps said:


> i'm not upset at all, i'm a bit dissapointed by your lack of intelligence and inability to comprehend what you read, but im not upset by it. I have explained myself but im not gonna do it again, if you dont get it by now you're never going to.
> 
> no its not an answer, its just you acting like a 12 year old, unable to accept that not everyone shares your uninformed opinions.


So Maggie started a World War, committed genocide AND introduced the poll tax...bitch...


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## Guest

porps said:


>


Typing something witty was beyond you for that post?


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## chichi

Porps..........

You might want to get rid of the "retarded" comment......its inappropriate *smh*


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## Guest

chichi said:


> Porps..........
> 
> You might want to get rid of the "retarded" comment......its inappropriate *smh*


porps doesn't have a BIG p...

in his name...


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## chichi

I am sad to see that the death of a sick and elderly lady has brought out the TROLL in some usually decent members.....


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## porps

jon bda said:


> Typing something witty was beyond you for that post?


either that or i just got bored of your idiocy. Putting you on my block list now, cos this is tedious.



chichi said:


> Porps..........
> 
> You might want to get rid of the "retarded" comment......its inappropriate *smh*


i thought it was very appropriate, but no problem i will remove the post (its been quoted now anyway )


----------



## chichi

jon bda said:


> porps doesn't have a BIG p...
> 
> in his name...


He does today :sneaky2:


----------



## Guest

porps said:


> either that or i just got bored of your idiocy.


I'm going with 'either that' tbh...you bought the stupid to the party before i got there...


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## cheekyscrip

jon bda said:


> I'm going with 'either that' tbh...you bought the stupid to the party before i got there...


say his mind works in a different way...far off beaten tracks...sometimes he is getting a bit lost...but as it seems it is of his own choice...no sympathy for me...her also thinks that cars and trains should be banned if drugs are banned...as both can kill?
how one may argue with such logic?????

((dear folks who still do not agree that say weed may affect you : read and judge for yourself...)
))


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods

cheekyscrip said:


> say his mind works in a different way...far off beaten tracks...sometimes he is getting a bit lost...but as it seems it is of his own choice...no sympathy for me...her also thinks that cars and trains should be banned if drugs are banned...as both can kill?
> how one may argue ?????
> 
> (*dear folks who still do not agree that say weed may affect you : read and judge for yourself...
> )*


what could you possibly mean  what like paranoia or assume that people are jumping on you specifically when making a general point CS you are bonkers


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## koekemakranka

My sister committed suicide in 1992. I'm just thinking who was president then so I can blame him.....
:sosp:


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## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> say his mind works in a different way...far off beaten tracks...sometimes he is getting a bit lost...but as it seems it is of his own choice...no sympathy for me...her also thinks that cars and trains should be banned if drugs are banned...as both can kill?
> how one may argue with such logic?????
> 
> ((dear folks who still do not agree that say weed may affect you : read and judge for yourself...)
> ))


No dog in this fight, but that isn't even close to what porps said  
Like how you hide the last stupid comment tho :Yawn:


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## cheekyscrip

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> what could you possibly mean  what like paranoia or assume that people are jumping on you specifically when making a general point CS you are bonkers


no...just refered to another thread...as to being bonkers...i am on this forum?:dita:

(and been far from saint as to this and that..but at least repenting sinner!)

anyway as it comes from you i will take it as a compliment...:devil:
(CHEEKY DOES LIL CRAZY DANCE..AS BEING OFFICALLY BONKERS NOW...)
coming back to the thread; putting MT as personage as evil as Hitler or Stalin is not fair...
she saved Britian a bit like saving patient's life by amputating a hand...

we will never know how Britain would have been if Unions got their way...but it did not look promising though...
yet I understand the bitterness of those who feel betrayed and left for dead...
Churchll ldid similar thing...betrayed his ally...
sold out many innocent people to communist regime...in Jalta, in Teheran, my family lost all and ended in comunist prison...
yet I would not call him Hitler?


----------



## Waterlily

koekemakranka said:


> My sister committed suicide in 1992. I'm just thinking who was president then so I can blame him.....
> :sosp:


snicker*


----------



## Guest

koekemakranka said:


> My sister committed suicide in 1992. I'm just thinking who was president then so I can blame him.....
> :sosp:


That would be the lovely John Major


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## koekemakranka

porps said:


> what a well reasoned argument you make! :dita:
> 
> Statement 1 - All people deserve respect after death
> Statement 2 - Hitler was a person
> Statement 3 - Hitler is dead.
> Statement 4 - Therefore hitler deserves respects.
> 
> If you disagree with 4 then you must surely disagree with 1 too.


This is not the point! Many of the posters here disliked Maggie, disliked her policies, but still think it is disrespectful to her family to say you want to dance on her grave and hold celebration parties. It is not about her...it is about the ones left behind ONLY. Nobody is saying everyone should suddenly say they loved Maggie, thought she was great etc etc. You've missed the point completely. She's DEAD, why whinge now..why didn't you go and visit her or write a letter to get all the bile out or take up a political career when she was alive? Lay off the dope for a while m'boy.


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## Colliebarmy

koekemakranka said:


> This is not the point! .........She's DEAD, why whinge now..*why didn't you go and visit her or write a letter to get all the bile out or take up a political career when she was alive?* Lay off the dope for a while m'boy.


Cos they hadnt got the balls...


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## Colliebarmy

B3rnie said:


> That would be the lovely John Major


When was he *President of South Africa*?


> About koekemakranka
> 
> Location
> South Africa


That JUST shows who reads what....


----------



## Guest

Colliebarmy said:


> When was he *President of South Africa*?
> 
> That JUST shows who reads what....


When did I say he was????
Hmmmm???
hmmm.......?????

No one asked who was the president of a particular country :dita:

Bless ya, I guess you need more sleep :Yawn:


----------



## DoodlesRule

B3rnie said:


> When did I say he was????
> Hmmmm???
> hmmm.......?????
> 
> No one asked who was the president of a particular country :dita:
> 
> Bless ya, I guess you need more sleep :Yawn:


We don't have presidents in the UK


----------



## Guest

DoodlesRule said:


> We don't have presidents in the UK


Same thing, different name


----------



## Magnus

porps said:


> which is exactly my point - your actions in life determine how you will be remembered in death.
> 
> Is that the best you can do? How old are you? 12?


I can obviously do significantly better than you little fella, go back and read the posts, when you're not mashed. My rather crude analogy should give you the clues as to why there is very little point.


----------



## Colliebarmy

B3rnie said:


> When did I say he was????
> Hmmmm???
> hmmm.......?????
> 
> No one asked who was the president of a particular country :dita:
> 
> Bless ya, I guess you need more sleep :Yawn:


You did at 9.21....



B3rnie said:


> That would be the lovely John Major


----------



## Colliebarmy

B3rnie said:


> Same thing, different name


excuses....excuses....



> A prime minister is the most senior minister of cabinet in the executive branch of government in a parliamentary system


We elect a government by political party

A President is elected by the voting public


----------



## koekemakranka

Colliebarmy said:


> excuses....excuses....
> 
> We elect a government by political party
> 
> *A President is elected by the voting public*


Well, sometimes, if you are lucky


----------



## Colliebarmy

koekemakranka said:


> Well, sometimes, if you are lucky


well, in theory at least

I almost came to SA about 35 years ago when they came recruiting at the pit


----------



## JANICE199

*So Parliament is recalled to discuss her..7 and half hours have been set aside for this.
Pity they can't put their time to better use.*


----------



## DoodlesRule

JANICE199 said:


> *So Parliament is recalled to discuss her..7 and half hours have been set aside for this.
> Pity they can't put their time to better use.*


It does seem a bit odd to me, why and discuss what?


----------



## JANICE199

DoodlesRule said:


> It does seem a bit odd to me, why and discuss what?


*It's to debate her legacy and pay tribute..i would have thought they could do that at her funeral.*


----------



## DoodlesRule

JANICE199 said:


> *It's to debate her legacy and pay tribute..i would have thought they could do that at her funeral.*


So really it will be a bit like on here then


----------



## Lavenderb

DoodlesRule said:


> So really it will be a bit like on here then


Getting on for 48 hrs here, Maggie would be proud :lol:


----------



## DoodlesRule

Lavenderb said:


> Getting on for 48 hrs here, Maggie would be proud :lol:


Now that would be good if they were made to continue as long as this thread - but not be allowed to digress onto waccy baccy & presidents lol


----------



## JANICE199

DoodlesRule said:


> Now that would be good if they were made to continue as long as this thread - but not be allowed to digress onto waccy baccy & presidents lol


*I hate to burst your bubble but i think Presidents will be mentioned.*


----------



## Colliebarmy

Lavenderb said:


> Getting on for 48 hrs here, Maggie would be proud :lol:


and in charge


----------



## DoodlesRule

JANICE199 said:


> *I hate to burst your bubble but i think Presidents will be mentioned.*


Oh yes of course the special relationship with the actor :001_unsure:


----------



## suewhite

Well I tell you one thing I dont have any sympathy with her kid (adults)they havent been near her for months not even at Christmas.I would'nt have wanted my mum dying in a hotel (mind it would'nt be the Ritz more a local Travel Lodge)none so strange as folk:rolleyes


----------



## JANICE199

suewhite said:


> Well I tell you one thing I dont have any sympathy with her kid (adults)they havent been near her for months not even at Christmas.I would'nt have wanted my mum dying in a hotel (mind it would'nt be the Ritz more a local Travel Lodge)none so strange as folk:rolleyes


*Perhaps they got on with their lives just like she did. ( that's not meant in a nasty way )..But how much time would she have actually been a mother to them. Her son Mark, i think is a plonker, but from what i saw of her daughter Carol i thought she seemed ok.*


----------



## myshkin

koekemakranka said:


> This is not the point! Many of the posters here disliked Maggie, disliked her policies, but still think it is disrespectful to her family to say you want to dance on her grave and hold celebration parties. It is not about her...it is about the ones left behind ONLY. Nobody is saying everyone should suddenly say they loved Maggie, thought she was great etc etc. You've missed the point completely. She's DEAD, why whinge now..why didn't you go and visit her or write a letter to get all the bile out or take up a political career when she was alive? Lay off the dope for a while m'boy.


I've been trying to put into words why I find cheering death so distasteful, and I read this today (from a very unlikely source!):

.._...that if you opposed Thatcher's ideas it was likely because of their lack of compassion, which is really just a word for love. If love is something you cherish, it is hard to glean much joy from death, even in one's enemies._

It articulates why I'm not throwing a party.


----------



## Mese

After seeing videos of parties held in the street over her death and some of the remarks in this thread im firmly convinced the human race is de-evolving


----------



## Magnus

JANICE199 said:


> *So Parliament is recalled to discuss her..7 and half hours have been set aside for this.
> Pity they can't put their time to better use.*


They're on their Easter break, it's additional time in parliament and isn't wasting any official parliament time.

However if they were to quickly pass a law which allowed decent people to shoot the scum that are partying over her death, that would be good also.


----------



## Bisbow

Mese said:


> After seeing videos of parties held in the street over her death and some of the remarks in this thread im firmly convinced the human race is de-evolving


It certainly seems that way.

Never thought I would be ashamed to call myself British but after some of the mindless comments on here and the mindless idiots partying in the streets I am beginning to feel that way


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

I just put it down to bad manners personally - dislike is not an excuse for disrespect x


----------



## Happy Paws2

myshkin said:


> I've been trying to put into words why I find cheering death so distasteful, and I read this today (from a very unlikely source!):
> 
> .._...that if you opposed Thatcher's ideas it was likely because of their lack of *compassion,* which is really just a word for love. If love is something you cherish, it is hard to glean much joy from death, even in one's enemies._
> 
> It articulates why I'm not throwing a party.


I don't think she ever knew the means of that word, I never saw any from her in the time she was PM, just a power crazed women.


----------



## JANICE199

Magnus said:


> They're on their Easter break, it's additional time in parliament and isn't wasting any official parliament time.
> 
> However if they were to quickly pass a law which allowed decent people to shoot the scum that are partying over her death, that would be good also.


*And they can claim £3,750 for coming back.*


----------



## cheekyscrip

JANICE199 said:


> *And they can claim £3,750 for coming back.*


MT would not agreed toTHAT...


----------



## myshkin

Happy Paws said:


> I don't think she ever knew the means of that word, I never saw any from her in the time she was PM, just a power crazed women.


But that's my point, HP. I feel that she quite deliberately set out to destroy compassion for the weak, the sick, the old, the poor, by her statement that "there is no such thing as society".

If I act without compassion, she has achieved her aim in my view.


----------



## LolaBoo

So before her death she asked that Marks Ex wife and present wife both attend her funeral, yeah i agree that Marks children from his 1st marriage attend, but seems a bit strange that both past and present wives attend :/ well imo it is anyway


----------



## tincan

LolaBoo said:


> So before her death she asked that Marks Ex wife and present wife both attend her funeral, yeah i agree that Marks children from his 1st marriage attend, but seems a bit strange that both past and present wives attend :/ well imo it is anyway


.......

I don't see anything strange in that .... Seems perfectly normal to me ... MT had relationships with both of these woman , why should'nt they both attend


----------



## DoodlesRule

LolaBoo said:


> So before her death she asked that Marks Ex wife and present wife both attend her funeral, yeah i agree that Marks children from his 1st marriage attend, but seems a bit strange that both past and present wives attend :/ well imo it is anyway


She might just have got on with them both? I have been divorced for donkeys years but still get on with my ex MIL, we always have a laugh and she loves my son dearly so I like her just for that if nothing else! She always gives me a hug & kiss when I see her, since my son moved into his own house she rings me regularly because she hated it when her 3 left home and wants to make sure I am ok (bless her he only lives 15 minutes away).

You might not have liked her policies LolaBoo but I would presume you didn't know her personally


----------



## Bisbow

Quote

"MT expressed delight that stalls at the Trade Union Congress were selling "party packs" to those that despised her for use when she died"

" It was a tribute that they remembered her after so long"

So, it's
! to MT
0 to the mobs

She had the last laugh, good on you Maggie


----------



## Colliebarmy

The main point is she dont give a monkey's who thinks or says what now


i dont think she ever did though

St Maggie, like King Arthur will arise when England needs her!


----------



## IrishEyes

DoodlesRule said:


> I have been divorced for donkeys years but still get on with my ex MIL, we always have a laugh and she loves my son dearly so I like her just for that if nothing else! She always gives me a hug & kiss when I see her, since my son moved into his own house she rings me regularly because she hated it when her 3 left home and wants to make sure I am ok (bless her he only lived 15 minutes away).


I just wanted to say, how very lovely!


----------



## Tinder

myshkin said:


> I've been trying to put into words why I find cheering death so distasteful, and I read this today (from a very unlikely source!):
> 
> .._...that if you opposed Thatcher's ideas it was likely because of their lack of compassion, which is really just a word for love. If love is something you cherish, it is hard to glean much joy from death, even in one's enemies._
> 
> It articulates why I'm not throwing a party.


Thanks Myshkin. You've helped me to articulate why I've also been unable to comment on a thread I've been reading with equal measures of disgust and disbelief for 2 days.

I must admit my disgust _has_ been aimed mainly at the Thatcher sympathisers and the crap spouted about her "legacy" on this thread... but even so why would I want to celebrate the death of a very ill old woman who died surrounded by paid staff, her children not even in the same country as her?

That would be sinking to the level of the Thatcherite would it not? To show such lack of compassion, callousness, ruthlessness and self interest in the face of great emotional pain...like Thatcher displayed whilst obliterating northern industries, communities and lives. Northern towns like mine that are now ghost towns that have never recovered aren't worth weeping over though are they? We were the "few eggs" that needed breaking for the economic good of the country....or the prosperous South at least.

To those who want to organise parties and celebrate the death of "Thatch" (wooo 80's nostalgia) why not put all your hatred and bitterness to good use and organise in protest against the bastards we currently have in instead?


----------



## JANICE199

Tinder said:


> Thanks Myshkin. You've helped me to articulate why I've also been unable to comment on a thread I've been reading with equal measures of disgust and disbelief for 2 days.
> 
> I must admit my disgust _has_ been aimed mainly at the Thatcher sympathisers and the crap spouted about her "legacy" on this thread... but even so why would I want to celebrate the death of a very ill old woman who died surrounded by paid staff, her children not even in the same country as her?
> 
> That would be sinking to the level of the Thatcherite would it not? To show such lack of compassion, callousness, ruthlessness and self interest in the face of great emotional pain...like Thatcher displayed whilst obliterating northern industries, communities and lives. Northern towns like mine that are now ghost towns that have never recovered aren't worth weeping over though are they? We were the "few eggs" that needed breaking for the economic good of the country....or the prosperous South at least.
> 
> To those who want to organise parties and celebrate the death of "Thatch" (wooo 80's nostalgia) why not put all your hatred and bitterness to good use and organise in protest against the bastards we currently have in instead?


*People have protested, but hey did you not know we only now get to see what the powers the be want us to see?
How much if any, coverage of the protests over the bedroom tax was shown?
Thank god for FB.*


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

Both my parents are seperated but many people think that they are still together. Even divorced people can get along. My dad even came to my grans funeral and she dispised him, i thought she'd jump out of the casket knowing he was there lol


----------



## JANICE199

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Both my parents are seperated but many people think that they are still together. Even divorced people can get along. My dad even came to my grans funeral and she dispised him, i thought she'd jump out of the casket knowing he was there lol


*Totally agree..My ex. myself and my hubby stayed very good friends until he died. He was a lovely person.*


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat

JANICE199 said:


> *Totally agree..My ex. myself and my hubby stayed very good friends until he died. He was a lovely person.*


To me if that is possible its lovely. My parents still buy each other holiday/birthday gifts and my dad comes over weekly for our walking dead episode or Sunday night tv shows.

But my mom has made it clear that she won't go back to him and my dad enjoys a active dating life, my mom will even advise him lol

That's not to say they still don't have disagreements but for the most part they get along.


----------



## Tinder

JANICE199 said:


> *People have protested, but hey did you not know we only now get to see what the powers the be want us to see?
> How much if any, coverage of the protests over the bedroom tax was shown?
> Thank god for FB.*


Yeah i know they have Janice and media misrepresentation is hardly anything new. But when i said 'protest' i meant it in a looser sense...educating people about the welfare reform changes...doing what you can to spread the word and prepare people. Some people still, even at this late stage, don't really know how massive an impact these reforms could have. I work in a homeless hostel and work with some of those likely to be worst affected. It's scary. When our boss 'jokes' about us building an extension in readiness she really isn't joking.


----------



## FEJA JUODAS

a quote from Shakespeare...spellt variously i add even in GB...comes to mind when any leader dies...

"The evil that men do" is a quotation from Act 3, scene ii of Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare (Mark Antony: 

"The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones".)


----------



## suewhite

Apparently there is a party at Trafalgar Square on Saturday where an effigy of MT will be hung and then a football match using her head as the football,this should be stopped sick morons,I heard this on the radio


----------



## rocco33

suewhite said:


> Apparently there is a party at Trafalgar Square on Saturday where an effigy of MT will be hung and then a football match using her head as the football,this should be stopped sick morons,I heard this on the radio


This is a very sad reflection on parts of our society. How did we get we get to become a society like this


----------



## Spellweaver

Well, I've been doing my usual 3 x 13hr shifts so I've not been on here much in the last 3 days - surprised the thread's still open, tbh!

I think now that the dust has begin to settle, the question we should all be asking ourselves is this: why has this woman in particular engendered so much hatred? I'm 58 years old and have lived through several successive conservative and labour governments. There have been good leaders, bad leaders and indifferent leaders - but in all that time there has never been so much hatred shown towards a leader as the hatred shown towards Thatcher. In fact, looking back through history, you would be hard put to find anything like it since the civil war.

Even though I did not respect the woman in life and I do not respect her now just because she is dead, I don't condone the street parties and celebrations - but the fact that they _are_ happening shows the depths of some people's feelings, and it is that depth of feeling that we should all be looking at, asking ourselves why it is there. It is easy to dismiss it as mindless, distasteful, inhuman etc etc - but these are real people expressing real feelings. Instead of condemning these feelings, should we not be looking at why these feelings are as high as they are, and seeing what lessons we can learn from the acts and policies that engendered them?


----------



## Colliebarmy

suewhite said:


> Apparently there is a party at Trafalgar Square on Saturday where an effigy of MT will be hung and then a football match using her head as the football,this should be stopped sick morons,I heard this on the radio


----------



## paddyjulie

Ding- dong the witch Is dead, is at no2 for iTunes downloads .... Dunno what I think about that tbh. :bored:

Apple - iTunes - iTunes Store - Charts - Top 10 Songs


----------



## rocco33

I understand your point, but I don't think it has anything to do with it. There are plenty of people who disagreed with her policies but wouldn't act like this. I think sadly, poor, aggressive behaviour has become normal and acceptable for some members of society. I remember when my kids were little, seeing the behaviour of some of the mothers in the playground. People have been attacked for giving the 'wrong' look at someone and 'dissing' them! 

Whether you agreed with her or disagreed, she was a formidable, determined leader, unlike any of the other lily livered leaders we've had since or after, so would, of course, polarised opinion. I'll bet if Arthur Skargill had won and the country had gone down the pan, he would have been spoken about in similar terms.


----------



## suzy93074

I DO understand that for some older generations there are genuine reasons why they hate MT - I have no issue with people saying their views on how much they dislike her either ....esp those that suffered from her time in office....

But street parties and the venom coming out of some of the younger generations who never even were under her government??? well that just puzzles me ....its the hype mentality of getting on a band wagon and getting all excited about it which I find quite disturbing ...the hate from these people is unbelievable and not called for imo ....its distasteful ...and shows what a load of ignorant twonks we have in this country.


----------



## Colliebarmy

paddyjulie said:


> Ding- dong the witch Is dead, is at no2 for iTunes downloads .... Dunno what I think about that tbh. :bored:
> 
> Apple - iTunes - iTunes Store - Charts - Top 10 Songs


but nowadays 10 downloads makes a number 1 hit....


----------



## Colliebarmy

This one is quite funny seeing as most of those moaning aint paying tax!


----------



## paddyjulie

Colliebarmy said:


> but nowadays 10 downloads makes a number 1 hit....


Just shows what I know :lol:


----------



## JANICE199

*Glenda Jackson gave a brilliant speech yesterday.*
Glenda Jackson launches tirade against Thatcher in tribute debate - YouTube


----------



## DoodlesRule

suewhite said:


> Apparently there is a party at Trafalgar Square on Saturday where an effigy of MT will be hung and then a football match using her head as the football,this should be stopped sick morons,I heard this on the radio


Some people have no dignity - it won't affect Mrs Thatcher one bit but sure as hell shows what low lifes they are


----------



## Colliebarmy

Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
Buddha

It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.
Buddha

You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
Buddha


----------



## Supasilvfoxy

JANICE199 said:


> *Glenda Jackson gave a brilliant speech yesterday.*
> Glenda Jackson launches tirade against Thatcher in tribute debate - YouTube


Two different sides to the same coin imo. Both Margeret Thatcher and Glenda Jackson had/have balls and both have their own supporters.

Seriously, politics apart, both these ladies made it in a man's world and both need to be admired if only for that.

But, come on folks - respect for the dead please, or is respect itself dead in this sad, sad place that this world has become.


----------



## JANICE199

Supasilvfoxy said:


> Two different sides to the same coin imo. Both Margeret Thatcher and Glenda Jackson had/have balls and both have their own supporters.
> 
> Seriously, politics apart, both these ladies made it in a man's world and both need to be admired if only for that.
> 
> But, come on folks - respect for the dead please, or is respect itself dead in this sad, sad place that this world has become.


*I have respect but not for MT, i didn't respect her in life i won't change the way i feel about her just because she died.*


----------



## Bisbow

I think these "parties" are being put on by people who just want to cause mayhem and destruction for mayhems sake, MT is just an excuse to cause a riot and disrupt peoples lives. It gives them enjoyment and a chance to have a go at the police and the laws of the country, and loot shops and property.

If someone from the royal familyhad died they did not like the results would have been similar


----------



## haeveymolly

Spellweaver said:


> Well, I've been doing my usual 3 x 13hr shifts so I've not been on here much in the last 3 days - surprised the thread's still open, tbh!
> 
> I think now that the dust has begin to settle, the question we should all be asking ourselves is this: why has this woman in particular engendered so much hatred? I'm 58 years old and have lived through several successive conservative and labour governments. There have been good leaders, bad leaders and indifferent leaders - but in all that time there has never been so much hatred shown towards a leader as the hatred shown towards Thatcher. In fact, looking back through history, you would be hard put to find anything like it since the civil war.
> 
> Even though I did not respect the woman in life and I do not respect her now just because she is dead, I don't condone the street parties and celebrations - but the fact that they _are_ happening shows the depths of some people's feelings, and it is that depth of feeling that we should all be looking at, asking ourselves why it is there. It is easy to dismiss it as mindless, distasteful, inhuman etc etc - but these are real people expressing real feelings. Instead of condemning these feelings, should we not be looking at why these feelings are as high as they are, and seeing what lessons we can learn from the acts and policies that engendered them?


I can only think the reason for this is because of the pit closures, which i think anyone with any backbone getting into power when she did would have done the same thing, the trade unions put the pits down that route. We have had hardships under other p.m's many business's have gone but individually didnt effect the amount of people at one time.


----------



## JANICE199

Bisbow said:


> I think these "parties" are being put on by people who just want to cause mayhem and destruction for mayhems sake, MT is just an excuse to cause a riot and disrupt peoples lives. It gives them enjoyment and a chance to have a go at the police and the laws of the country, and loot shops and property.
> 
> If someone from the royal familyhad died they did not like the results would have been similar


*I agree with you in as much " some " people will only be out for trouble.
The police, well that's another matter.*


----------



## Colliebarmy

haeveymolly said:


> I can only think the reason for this is because of the pit closures, which i think anyone with any backbone getting into power when she did would have done the same thing, the trade unions put the pits down that route.


*Wilsons Labour government closed more pits than Thatcher ever did!*


----------



## Tinder

The 'rent-a-mob' element will be there yes but they attend all such gatherings don't they? Just read the reasons given by Romany Blythe - the teacher behind the facebook street party campaign - as to why she felt the need to organise it and I can relate to all of them personally.

Woman behind street parties to 'celebrate' death of Margaret Thatcher named - Telegraph

The same article reveals that miners from Derbyshire & South yorkshire are attending. Should they be begrudged their day of protest?

I wouldn't attend anything like this because: 
(a) the rent-a-mob student element will no doubt spoil it and render it redundant as they always do and 
(b) I'm having my owm personal tribute that day to my dad, who died 22 years ago on 17th April. 
He despised Thatcher with a passion. My childhood memories are littered with him & his older sister (Thatcher supporter) constantly arguing about her. I know people have been mocked on this thread for blaming Thatcher for ruining their relatives lives in various ways but I do hold her policies responsible for the stress, cancer and 3 strokes my dad suffered in the years following being made redundant from a job he'd had 30+ years. He _was_ eaten up with hatred for her so yeah posters are right when they say it's not good for you to hold onto anger. I'll be placing on his grave the biggest bunch of red roses i can find and having my own quiet anti-Thatcher moment with him.


----------



## Colliebarmy

heres hoping for water cannon and baton rounds for the great unwashed as they riot

popcorn on stanby, stella in the fridge


----------



## Tinder

Spellweaver said:


> I think now that the dust has begin to settle, the question we should all be asking ourselves is this: why has this woman in particular engendered so much hatred?





haeveymolly said:


> I can only think the reason for this is because of the pit closures..


Can you seriously not think of anything else?
Were you one of the ones who profited under her rule then?


----------



## rocco33

> He was eaten up with hatred


I'm sorry for your father's illness, but this is a sad reflection. Being eaten up with hatred can never be blamed on anyone else.


----------



## Colliebarmy

haeveymolly said:


> I can only think the reason for this is because of the pit closures


1964-1979 (Labour - Wilson+Callaghan) 326 pits closed
1979-1990 (Tories) 154 pits closed


----------



## Tinder

rocco33 said:


> I'm sorry for your father's illness, but this is a sad reflection. Being eaten up with hatred can never be blamed on anyone else.


True but seeing as my dad was a glassmaker and not an alternative therapist with his own meditation tent and personal masseuse he didn't know odf any other way to express that hatred other than to hate the bitch whose policies were responsible for ruining his life and that of thousands of his townsfolk.


----------



## myshkin

Tinder said:


> True but seeing as my dad was a _glassmaker_ and not an alternative therapist with his own meditation tent and personal masseuse he didn't know odf any other way to express that hatred other than to hate the bitch whose policies were responsible for ruining his life and that of thousands of his townsfolk.


I think you are probably from my neck of the woods. A town built on industry that had its foundations ripped out from under it


----------



## Tinder

Yes Myshkin you're right. Our biggest employer used to be the glassworks my dad worked at. We also lost 3 pits. Tthe cruelest thing of all i think was that these workers from manufacturing, mining etc really were just thrown on the scrapheap - no retraining, no "service jobs" ring-fenced especially for any of them, lives just thrown away. 
I grew up _expecting_ not to have a job in Thatcher's britain! For men like my dad and his generation that was unthinkable.


----------



## JANICE199

Colliebarmy said:


> heres hoping for water cannon and baton rounds for the great unwashed as they riot
> 
> popcorn on stanby, stella in the fridge


*That will be about right. Police are probably looking forward to it.*


----------



## Colliebarmy

JANICE199 said:


> *That will be about right. Police are probably looking forward to it.*


They might be able to teach the "London Rioters" the lesson they missed last time round


----------



## Colliebarmy

Tinder said:


> We also lost 3 pits.


The fact most folk miss is that a pit isnt a factory, from the day it opens its closure is certain, it only has a finite amount of coal it can mine economically, they work outwards from the shaft, we used to go down the pit at 7am and not reach the face till almost 8.30am, to be up the pit by 2.30pm we had to leave at 1pm, take 20 minutes meal break off that and whats left to actually mine coal? and the longer a pit was open the further from the shaft the workings went (even if it was a return longwall face)


----------



## myshkin

Tinder said:


> Yes Myshkin you're right. Our biggest employer used to be the glassworks my dad worked at. We also lost 3 pits. Tthe cruelest thing of all i think was that these workers from manufacturing, mining etc really were just thrown on the scrapheap - no retraining, no "service jobs" ring-fenced especially for any of them, lives just thrown away.
> I grew up _expecting_ not to have a job in Thatcher's britain! For men like my dad and his generation that was unthinkable.





Colliebarmy said:


> The fact most folk miss is that a pit isnt a factory, from the day it opens its closure is certain, it only has a finite amount of coal it can mine economically, they work outwards from the shaft, we used to go down the pit at 7am and not reach the face till almost 8.30am, to be up the pit by 2.30pm we had to leave at 1pm, take 20 minutes meal break off that and whats left to actually mine coal? and the longer a pit was open the further from the shaft the workings went (even if it was a return longwall face)


What is repeatedly ignored is that there was still coal in the pits. In our home town the pits were estimated to have about forty years' worth of coal in each - that was around the 90s, when the last one closed. For them to have been closed for idealogical reasons was not only a terrible blow to the town, but seems pretty short-sighted when we are held to ransom in the present day due to our dependence on exports for fuel.


----------



## Tinder

This is the 'tribute to the miners' we now have on the site of the last pit to close...the Dream statue...a big head that has been christened amongst other things 'The Nob of The North':

http://www.suttonbeauty.org.uk/blog_files/dream_sthelens01.jpg

Some tribute eh?


----------



## myshkin

Tinder said:


> This is the 'tribute to the miners' we now have on the site of the last pit to close...the Dream statue...a big head that has been christened amongst other things 'The Nob of The North':
> 
> http://www.suttonbeauty.org.uk/blog_files/dream_sthelens01.jpg
> 
> Some tribute eh?


Makes me laugh every time I see it....the hardest part is keeping a straight face when my Dad gets himself annoyed about it. The Head is a standing joke...


----------



## Tinder

But Myshkin if you don't like it you're a philistine and a dinosaur living in the past who doesn't appreciate the arts pfft!


----------



## Colliebarmy

myshkin said:


> What is repeatedly ignored is that there was still coal in the pits. In our home town the pits were estimated to have about forty years' worth of coal in each - that was around the 90s, when the last one closed. For them to have been closed for idealogical reasons was not only a terrible blow to the town, but seems pretty short-sighted when we are held to ransom in the present day due to our dependence on exports for fuel.


theres *having coal* left and theres *having coal that can be got at no more than the cost of imported coal* and burned in power stations at todays "eco-green" emissions levels, do you advocate massive tax payer subsidies for mines running at a loss, and would YOU crawl on hands and knees to dig it out?

oh, and would you mind a pit+power station built by your house?...


----------



## koekemakranka

Spellweaver said:


> I think now that the dust has begin to settle, the question we should all be asking ourselves is this: why has this *woman* in particular engendered so much hatred?


Sadly, I think primarily because she is one. I think many people are secretly threatened by a ballsy, tough woman and tend to hold them to higher standards than their male counterparts. She didn't behave' like a laydeeee, in other words.


----------



## myshkin

Colliebarmy said:


> theres *having coal* left and theres *having coal that can be got at no more than the cost of imported coal* and burned in power stations at todays "eco-green" emissions levels, do you advocate massive tax payer subsidies for mines running at a loss, and would YOU crawl on hands and knees to dig it out?
> 
> oh, and would you mind a pit+power station built by your house?...


Err...we _had _pits built by our houses. They employed the majority of the town, along with the glass factories before they were closed.

The economic argument for closing those pits weakens when you start trying to count the cost of the mass unemployment that resulted and the fact that the imports aren't so cheap anymore, now that we have no option because we can't produce our own fuel.


----------



## JANICE199

koekemakranka said:


> Sadly, I think primarily because she is one. I think many people are secretly threatened by a ballsy, tough woman and tend to hold them to higher standards than their male counterparts. She didn't behave' like a laydeeee, in other words.


*As Glenda Jackson said yesterday, what about all the hard working women that kept this country going during the war. They had balls of steal imo. They were raising their kids and keeping the country going and such a bad time.
So i don't see why MT has been put a pedestal.*


----------



## myshkin

Colliebarmy said:


> theres *having coal* left and theres *having coal that can be got at no more than the cost of imported coal* and burned in power stations at todays "eco-green" emissions levels, do you advocate massive tax payer subsidies for mines running at a loss, *and would YOU crawl on hands and knees to dig it out?*
> 
> oh, and would you mind a pit+power station built by your house?...


Would I? What meaning does that even have? They didn't employ women for a start. But I'm from generations of miners on my father's side, so cut the BS.


----------



## Tinder

koekemakranka said:


> Sadly, I think primarily because she is one. I think many people are secretly threatened by a ballsy, tough woman and tend to hold them to higher standards than their male counterparts. She didn't behave' like a laydeeee, in other words.


But she _was_ seen as a lady by all those 'conservative with a small c' batty old women who voted for her just because she was a woman.


----------



## Bisbow

Colliebarmy said:


> 1964-1979 (Labour - Wilson+Callaghan) 326 pits closed
> 1979-1990 (Tories) 154 pits closed


Isn't it strange that everyone is blaming MT for pit closures and not a word is being said double the number labour closed.

But because they were closed by men and by labour means that it is OK


----------



## Colliebarmy

myshkin said:


> Err...we _had _pits built by our houses. They employed the majority of the town, along with the glass factories before they were closed.
> 
> The economic argument for closing those pits weakens when you start trying to count the cost of the mass unemployment that resulted and the fact that the imports aren't so cheap anymore, now that we have no option because we can't produce our own fuel.


and what happens when you vector in the deaths and accidents that have occurred down the pits in the UK because trust me, Iraq and Afghanistan pale into insignificance ...

The UK has lost 441 soldiers in Afghanistan, at ONE pit, in ONE incident 439 men died*, then theres Pneumoconiosis, Sillicosis...

*Senghenydd


----------



## Knightofalbion

Colliebarmy said:


> Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
> Buddha
> 
> It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.
> Buddha
> 
> You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
> Buddha


Good post.

Hate is an energy. Spin the wheel of hate if you wish, but see where it gets you.


----------



## Tinder

Bisbow said:


> Isn't it strange that everyone is blaming MT for pit closures and not a word is being said double the number labour closed.
> 
> But because they were closed by men and by labour means that it is OK


Well no actually that's not what we're saying at all. The main point i made about pit closures was not that they ckosed / whether they were viable etc but why the workers involved were not given more help to readjust to the massive changes forced on them.

Pit closures were just one example of the industry she destroyed. I don't think any government before her had targeted working class industry in the ruthless & systematic way she did.


----------



## Colliebarmy

myshkin said:


> Would I? What meaning does that even have? _They didn't employ women for a start_. But I'm from generations of miners on my father's side, so cut the BS.


very handy

So would you work 600ft underground given the chance? answer the question

im from generations of truckers but wouldnt want to drive long distance or tramp like dad did


----------



## myshkin

Tinder said:


> Well no actually that's not what we're saying at all. The main point i made about pit closures was not that they ckosed / whether they were viable etc but why the workers involved were not given more help to readjust to the massive changes forced on them.
> 
> Pit closures were just one example of the industry she destroyed. I don't think any government before her had targeted working class industry in the ruthless & systematic way she did.


That's the point - previous to Thatcher, successive governments aimed to increase demand and make the pits more profitable (it seems the fact that most countries in Europe subsidised their pits is conveniently forgotten) by closures - the ultimate aim being to keep the "home grown" energy sources viable.
Thatcher was different because her purpose was to destroy the mining and other industries entirely, for the purpose of breaking the unions. Entire towns suffered for her ideological spite.


----------



## myshkin

Colliebarmy said:


> very handy
> 
> So would you work 600ft underground given the chance? answer the question
> 
> im from generations of truckers but wouldnt want to drive long distance or tramp like dad did


Given the chance? No, I don't need to. 
If I _had_ to, I'd take *any* job I could get.
What do you think you are proving here?


----------



## Spellweaver

suzy93074 said:


> I DO understand that for some older generations there are genuine reasons why they hate MT - I have no issue with people saying their views on how much they dislike her either ....esp those that suffered from her time in office....
> 
> But street parties and the venom coming out of some of the younger generations who never even were under her government??? well that just puzzles me ....its the hype mentality of getting on a band wagon and getting all excited about it which I find quite disturbing ...the hate from these people is unbelievable and not called for imo ....its distasteful ...and shows what a load of ignorant twonks we have in this country.


I don't think it's all people jumping on the bandwagon Suzy - although I do believe that the usual rent-a-mob trouble-makers *will* be in there somewhere; they always are. But Thatcher's monetarist polices resulted in the decimation of our manufacturing substructure and left us with an economy based entirely on monetary market forces. _That_ is the reason we were so affected by the global economic crisis set in motion by the sub-prime mortgage scandal. That is, in fact, the reason why the country is in the state it is in today - and, as such, is affecting everyone of every age. People who were not even alive during her government are being still affected by the fall-out from her policies and, as such, have a right to protest about them and to want them to end.

But the celebrating of a death - and the depth of the feeling in these celebrations - is something else, and furthermore something that has never been seen in this country since the civil war. In fact, the nearest thing I can equate to what is happening now is what happened in France - ie the French revolution. The depth of feeling about her is akin to the depth of feeling the French people had towards the aristocracy. In fact, from some of the reports of celebrations that have taken place or are going to take place - beheading an effigy etc - there seem to be a lot of similarities now I come to think of it.

And, warming to my theme as I type - Thatcher's indifference to the plight of the people whose lives she decimated and destroyed could be seen as a parallel of Marie Antionette's "let them eat cake" remark.

Hmmm. Not sure I like where this analogy is going.


----------



## cheekyscrip

one point on the mines ; they always die of natural causes as simply the viable coal comes to the end........the deeper you go the more costly the coal...more or less...or it runs out..or it is not worth it...

so they have to be closed...in France, in Poland.. in Germany and so on....

yet governments should prepare a back up plan for those who always eventually will end unemployed....

West of Poland, very prosperous in 70-ties took a dive as mines closed...same miners who fought to bring capitalism back..found themselves unemployed...


----------



## Colliebarmy

cheekyscrip said:


> one point as the mines ; *they always die of natural causes as simply the viable coal comes to the end..*......the deeper you go the more costly the coal...more or less...or it runs out..or it is not worth it...
> 
> so they have to be closed...in France, in Poland.. in Germany and so on....
> 
> West of Poland, very prosporous in 70-ties took a dive a mines closed...same miners who fought to bring capitalism back..found themselves unemployed...


HEAR HEAR.....but lets still blame Thatcher eh?


----------



## Spellweaver

Colliebarmy said:


> HEAR HEAR.....but lets still blame Thatcher eh?


The difference was that Thatcher's closure of the pits (and the steelworks) had nothing to do with whether or not they were viable. Her agenda was to break the power of unions so that she could have a free reign in her policies of privatisation, deregulation and allowing economic market forces to control the country's economy.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

if they were so viable then why have they not survived now? (genuine question)

as if they were so profitable they would all be open, its a bit like China where they build roads just to keep people in work - pump money into something thats not viable to save jobs - sorry but in my own head that does not make sense x


----------



## cheekyscrip

in those times many Europeans countries faced the same situation: their coal was getting too expensive to mine...!!!

Polish miners were displeased, beause that was affecting their good salaries...they were employed still..but paid less..
then ...it burst open in !980...when dockers went on strike ...
Britain could have gone on for few more years pumping money in...but eventually coal has to run out!!!!


----------



## Sacrechat

Colliebarmy said:


> very handy
> 
> So would you work 600ft underground given the chance? answer the question
> 
> im from generations of truckers but wouldnt want to drive long distance or tramp like dad did


I know plenty of ex-miners who would. They miss the camaraderie which existed amongst mine workers.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

ahhhhhhhh!! I just assumed this was the case but thought I would get facts before putting my foot in it x


----------



## Sacrechat

Colliebarmy said:


> They might be able to teach the "London Rioters" the lesson they missed last time round


I hope the police learn from the lessons they needed to learn both at the riots and Hilsborough.


----------



## JANICE199

cheekyscrip said:


> in those times many Europeans countries faced the same situation: their coal was getting too expensive to mine...!!!
> 
> Polish miners were displeased, beause that was affecting their good salaries...they were employed still..but paid less..
> then ...it burst open in !980...when dockers went on strike ...
> Britain could have gone on for few more years pumping money in...but eventually coal has to run out!!!!


*But the coal didn't run out, and there were many mines that could have carried on.
When MT sent in the Met. police to stop food getting to the miners, the miners never stood a chance. And she called that a democracy.*


----------



## cheekyscrip

JANICE199 said:


> *But the coal didn't run out, and there were many mines that could have carried on.
> When MT sent in the Met. police to stop food getting to the miners, the miners never stood a chance. And she called that a democracy.*


I never said I supported the way it was done..it might have been done with some back up plan for miners...in stages...
but Unions were far from reasonable too...


----------



## JANICE199

cheekyscrip said:


> I never said I supported the way it was done..it might have been done with some back up plan for miners...in stages...
> but Unions were far from reasonable too...


*But the likes of the miners got us better working conditions for today. And once again the tories are taking them away.
eta...i wasn't having a dig at your post.*


----------



## DoodlesRule

Spellweaver said:


> The difference was that Thatcher's closure of the pits (and the steelworks) had nothing to do with whether or not they were viable. Her agenda was to break the power of unions so that she could have a free reign in her policies of privatisation, deregulation and allowing economic market forces to control the country's economy.


Genuine question, why were the mines nationalised in the first place? Presumably by Labour though I don't know. If they had all still been in private ownership then Mrs T couldn't have shut them


----------



## myshkin

Sacremist said:


> I hope the police learn from the lessons they needed to learn both at the riots and *Hilsborough*.


Thatcher was complicit in the cover up...refused to endorse the original enquiry, specifically because it criticised the police.
There won't be any minute's silence at Anfield FC....to do so would be deeply upsetting and offensive.


----------



## Goblin

JANICE199 said:


> *But the coal didn't run out, and there were many mines that could have carried on.
> When MT sent in the Met. police to stop food getting to the miners, the miners never stood a chance. And she called that a democracy.*


However by striking, many mines which could have been left open actually were forced to close. Mines needed a minimum amount of maintenance, flood prevention etc. Even after the strikes if mines could have been profitable they would have kept going. Trouble was they weren't. I keep seeing this again and again, the impact of globalization is ignored by many. To be profitable you need to be able to compete in a global market. Most can probably remember "buy british". Why was this necessary?


----------



## Magnus

JANICE199 said:


> *Glenda Jackson gave a brilliant speech yesterday.*
> Glenda Jackson launches tirade against Thatcher in tribute debate - YouTube


Glenda Jackson's speech was like most of her parliamentary contributions; utter shite.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Magnus said:


> Glendale Jackson's speech was like most of her parliamentary contributions; utter shite.


I really cannot listen to her, sets my teeth on edge :bored:


----------



## Magnus

The NUM membership never even got to vote for strikes which made them illegal. She didn't kill the unions she gave them back to the membership and took power away from the likes of Scargill.

Miners who wanted to work were threatened, some had their pets killed, a taxi driver taking "scab" miners to work was killed. Don't let these one dimensional socialists tell you that the strikers were the good guys.

Labour closed more mines than the Conservatives - FACT. They don't spout about that very often. Mining was uneconomic, the industry was not viable without massive subsidies. It might have been viable for longer if it hadn't been wrecked by consisting striking.

Turn your bile on Scargill; he forced the miners to strike in an attempt to bring down a democratically elected government. He didn't suffer. He still got two houses from the NUM, a massive salary agreed with Harold Wilson's government. He is still arguing in the courts to get his free second home for life out of the NUM. It's easier to blame Maggie - Tory, posh voice etc. but the real evil was those pretending to be the worker's friends. Red Robbo, Jack Jones and Arthur Scargill to name just three of their type. If Maggie had been Michael and had spoken with a northern accent you'd still be applauding.

A field won't have a minute's silence - big bloody deal. Derek Hatton screwed Liverpool much more than Maggie ever did. 
Prescott buggered Hull docks by constantly calling all out strikes. 

These people then get fat in cushy jobs and turn around and start blaming the Tories for the demise of our industries. 

JEEZ - what a joke.


----------



## myshkin

Magnus said:


> Glendale Jackson's speech was like most of her parliamentary contributions; utter shite.


The power of your faultless logic and incisive reasoning compels me to agree.

Not really.


----------



## Magnus

Other than predictive type on an iPad I have no interest in what Glenda (not Glendale) Jackson says - she is soaked in the same skewed logic that you are. It's total rot.


----------



## Bisbow

Thank you Magnus for telling the truth much better than I could put it.

Not the you will be believed by those brain washed by lefty lovers of course


----------



## rocco33

Magnus said:


> The NUM membership never even got to vote for strikes which made them illegal. She didn't kill the unions she gave them back to the membership and took power away from the likes of Scargill.
> 
> Miners who wanted to work were threatened, some had their pets killed, a taxi driver taking "scab" miners to work was killed. Don't let these one dimensional socialists tell you that the strikers were the good guys.
> 
> Labour closed more mines than the Conservatives - FACT. They don't spout about that very often. Mining was uneconomic, the industry was not viable without massive subsidies. It might have been viable for longer if it hadn't been wrecked by consisting striking.
> 
> Turn your bile on Scargill; he forced the miners to strike in an attempt to bring down a democratically elected government. He didn't suffer. He still got two houses from the NUM, a massive salary agreed with Harold Wilson's government. He is still arguing in the courts to get his free second home for life out of the NUM. It's easier to blame Maggie - Tory, posh voice etc. but the real evil was those pretending to be the worker's friends. Red Robbo, Jack Jones and Arthur Scargill to name just three of their type. If Maggie had been Michael and had spoken with a northern accent you'd still be applauding.
> 
> A field won't have a minute's silence - big bloody deal. Derek Hatton screwed Liverpool much more than Maggie ever did.
> Prescott buggered Hull docks by constantly calling all out strikes.
> 
> These people then get fat in cushy jobs and turn around and start blaming the Tories for the demise of our industries.
> 
> JEEZ - what a joke.


Absolutely. People seem to forget (or don't realise) that unions then were completely different. They were a closed shop. If you didn't belong to the union you didn't get a job and if you didn't know someone within the union you didn't get to join. It was worse than the old school tie network. And those at the top had their own agendas and used their members to do what they wanted. They brought down two governments, including a Labour one, and the idea that a woman could stand up to them didn't even occur to them.

The country was on it's knees - something had to be done. And the idea that it was a woman Tory with a posh voice that could end their power infuriated them, I'm sure. The irony was that she was a grocer's daughter brought up in the flat above the shop and (for all her misguided and wrong policies) wanted opportunities available to all.


----------



## Tinder

Bisbow said:


> Thank you Magnus for telling the truth much better than I could put it.
> 
> Not the you will be believed by those brain washed by lefty lovers of course


Brainwashed? By whom exactly. I base my opinions of MT on my experiences as a child of Thatcher's Britiain.

I didn't imagine having no job to go to when I left school despite good qualifications unless you count a succession of YTS and ET schemes - working a 40 hr week for sweet F.A. - as my 'job'. 
It really happened.

I didn't imagine my dad's descent into depression and worthlessness after losing the job that had shaped his identity and defined him as a man for decades. 
It really happened.

I didn't imagine all of my town's major industries either closing altogether or being sold off bit by bit - that really happened too and the decline continues today as no money and investment was put in to replace what was lost.


----------



## Guest

Interesting read Grace Dent: Thatcher&#039;s children we may be, but these death parties are just childish - Comment - Voices - The Independent


----------



## JANICE199

Magnus said:


> Other than predictive type on an iPad I have no interest in what Glenda (not Glendale) Jackson says - she is soaked in the same skewed logic that you are. It's total rot.


*lmao Nice to see someone who can have an adult debate. But hey, you are still entitled to your opinion.*


----------



## Bisbow

Brain washed by the unions rhetoric blaming MT for all the wrongs, and the left press

The unions ruined peoples lives, not MT. I was alive when she came to power so I do know about it. She did more for me and mine than any labour goverment. Giving a poor single mother a better way of life. No way can I be called rich and privalliged, just a working class family.


----------



## Tinder

Bisbow said:


> Brain washed by the unions rhetoric blaming MT for all the wrongs, and the left press
> 
> The unions ruined peoples lives, not MT. I was alive when she came to power so I do know about it. She did more for me and mine than any labour goverment. Giving a poor single mother a better way of life. No way can I be called rich and privalliged, just a working class family.


Why is everyone banging on about the unions and not acknowledging ANY of the damage her policies did to this country?

I'll probably be shot down for this but I wonder (not for the first time on here the last couple of days) how much of this really is a north/south divide thing?

(As i've read Thatcher posts I am clocking up a tally of where posters are from or live now...can't help it really 'cause i do think overall the south faired much better under her than northern England, Scotland & wales).

You're obviously one of the ones who had "more money in your purse" under her. Most people *I* know, see, say every time they been long term unemployed it's always been a tory government in power. Have they been brainwashed by the left wing press do you think?


----------



## JANICE199

Tinder said:


> Why is everyone banging on about the unions and not acknowledging ANY of the damage her policies did to this country?
> 
> I'll probably be shot down for this but I wonder (not for the first time on here the last couple of days) how much of this really is a north/south divide thing?
> 
> (As i've read Thatcher posts I am clocking up a tally of where posters are from or live now...can't help it really 'cause i do think overall the south faired much better under her than northern England, Scotland & wales).
> 
> You're obviously one of the ones who had "more money in your purse" under her. Most people *i* know, see, say every time they been long term unemployed it's always been a tory government in power. Have they been brainwashed by the left wing press do you think?


*People that say some of us were/are brain washed only use that as an excuse. No doubt they believe all that the " unbias" bbc feed us.*


----------



## Bisbow

Yes, she made mistakes, just like every goverment since the beginning of time.

Blaming her for all the ills and not the unions is wrong. If more people in the north followed the unions more than southeners that was not her fault either

I was a union member in my working days but did not think the sun shone out of their backsides They made mistakes as well


----------



## rocco33

What people don't seem to realise as that she was there BECAUSE of the unions. Had they not had their own political agenda she would never have got to power! So she was a product of what they did! Ironic really.


----------



## rocco33

JANICE199 said:


> *People that say some of us were/are brain washed only use that as an excuse. No doubt they believe all that the " unbias" bbc feed us.*


No, I lived through it.


----------



## Supasilvfoxy

Tinder said:


> Why is everyone banging on about the unions and not acknowledging ANY of the damage her policies did to this country?
> 
> I'll probably be shot down for this but I wonder (not for the first time on here the last couple of days) how much of this really is a north/south divide thing?
> 
> (As i've read Thatcher posts I am clocking up a tally of where posters are from or live now...can't help it really 'cause i do think overall the south faired much better under her than northern England, Scotland & wales).
> 
> You're obviously one of the ones who had "more money in your purse" under her. Most people *I* know, see, say every time they been long term unemployed it's always been a tory government in power. Have they been brainwashed by the left wing press do you think?


Can't get where your north/south divided trollop is coming from. I'm a southerner, and moved up north when I was 20 - which makes me a northener for the last 52 years.

I remember the 'Thatcher years' very, very well. Personally, they didn't do me any harm whatsoever. I was a single, working mother - who lived in a house owned by the council. When Mrs Thatcher left power I was in a position to buy the house which gave me independence and equality with any other home owner. I took on the responsibilty of maintaining the house and paying the mortgage from that day. I was never unemployed under any government I worked hard to keep my independence and to raise my daughter with the same values as myself. 
She worked hard and got herself a law degree and now works for the council as a family solicitor, she has never been unemployed. She doesn't vote Tory either.

It really doesn't pay to stereotype people, especially people you don't know.


----------



## Spellweaver

Bisbow said:


> Thank you Magnus for telling the truth much better than I could put it.
> 
> Not the you will be believed by those brain washed by lefty lovers of course


Well, you're right in one thing - Magnus' version of what happened in the miners' strike is an extremely right wing version of the truth and as such definitely would not be believed by anyone with any left-wing tendencies. However, that does not mean the people who do believe him are brain washed. Rather, it means that people who do not believe his version of the truth can actually think for themsleves instead of believing tory spin.

Where he sees Thatcher as giving union members back their membership, everyone without tory-tinted spectacles sees the erosion of human rights. He speaks of miners who wanted to work being threatened, and forgets to omit that Thatcher brought in the police to prevent food getting through to striking miners. He erroneously calls socialists one-dimensional in order to somehow belittle them. He pretends strikers were not the good guys - strikers were men and women from all walks of life, ordinary men and women who were fighting for a decent wage in order to feed their families.

He speaks of labour closing more mines than the tories, but doesn't go on to the logical extension that that was done with no trouble from the unions because it was done for economic reasons. Thatcher's closures, on the other hand, were merely to try to break the unions, which was why they caused the strife they did.

He speaks of Scargill and villifies his salary and pension arrangements - well, the less said about the tory view on wealthy people with high pensions and two houses the better. It's ok in his view for the wealthy bankers to have pesnions for screwing up their jobs and the country's economy, but not for a trade union leader? Typical tory two-facedness.

He tries to pull the "class card" to make out that people were against Thatcher because she was "posh" - well, it's easier to do that than admitting the real reason people were against her was that she was at fault for decimating and destroying peoples lives and whole communities so that she could wrest power away from the unions in order to further her free market policies.

Magnus' version of the truth is mere tory propaganda. And the vitriol which he spits out at anyone who does not fall in line with his peculiar tory-tainted version of the truth - from politicians, through football clubs, to posters on here - mirrors the way in which Thatcher herself used to act.

No wonder he thinks she was so marvellous - but while ever he is regurgitating her spin he is miles away from the real truth.


----------



## Tinder

Supasilvfoxy said:


> Can't get where your north/south divided trollop is coming from. I'm a southerner, and moved up north when I was 20 - which makes me a northener for the last 52 years.
> 
> I remember the 'Thatcher years' very, very well. Personally, they didn't do me any harm whatsoever. I was a single, working mother - who lived in a house owned by the council. When Mrs Thatcher left power I was in a position to buy the house which gave me independence and equality with any other home owner. I took on the responsibilty of maintaining the house and paying the mortgage from that day. I was never unemployed under any government I worked hard to keep my independence and to raise my daughter with the same values as myself.
> She worked hard and got herself a law degree and now works for the council as a family solicitor, she has never been unemployed. She doesn't vote Tory either.
> 
> It really doesn't pay to stereotype people, especially people you don't know.


How was i stereotyping anyone? I was speculating as to where people were from and how far this has affected theirs views and experiences...I didn't say i knew for sure anything about anyone else so please don't say i've written things i haven't ok?

For one thing you're about 30 yrs older than me so presumably was at a very different stage in your life to where i was when she came to power. You weren't just starting out in life when there were 3 million unemployed and a plethora of government training schemes awaiting school leavers like me in the 80's.

To go on about how you've never been unemployed and how your daughter has a law degree... so what? I too was raised by parents with a good strong work ethic who would've expected me to go out and get a job after school. Guess whaqt though? There were none.

I've never been unemployed either...I was placed on "schemes" as a youngster along with the rest of my generation so that we wouldn't show up in the umemployment figures. I have a degree and so does my brother...big deal... we still hate Thatcher and have nothing to thank her for!

And of course you bought your council house. Which is one of the reasons you did very well under her. Hope you still live in it and didnt sell it on for a profit. The homeless people i work with could do with all those houses that were sold off as a result of her right to buy policy.


----------



## Spellweaver

rocco33 said:


> What people don't seem to realise as that she was there BECAUSE of the unions. Had they not had their own political agenda she would never have got to power! So she was a product of what they did! Ironic really.


But this is not true. She believed that the best way to take the country forwards was to adopt a free-market policy and the unions were in her way, so she had to get rid of them.

And why were they in her way? Because adopting a free market policy not only meant the closure of our industrial framework and putting in its place a monetary framework, it also meant that millions would be out of work and the unions would fight for their jobs. So she had to get rid of them.

And who was right? Well, Thatcher took away people's rights, broke the unions, got her own way, put her monetary based policies into place - and then he global crisis casued by the sub-prime mortgage fiasco lead to a collapse of many monetary markets, including our own.

So, pehaps if people's rights hadn't been eroded, perhaps if she hadn't managed to break the unoins and we still had a solid manufacturing base, then the country would not be in the mess it is in today.


----------



## Kitty_pig

Spellweaver said:


> But this is not true. She believed that the best way to take the country forwards was to adopt a free-market policy and the unions were in her way, so she had to get rid of them.
> 
> And why were they in her way? Because adopting a free market policy not only meant the closure of our industrial framework and putting in its place a monetary framework, it also meant that millions would be out of work and the unions would fight for their jobs. So she had to get rid of them.
> 
> And who was right? Well, Thatcher took away people's rights, broke the unions, got her own way, put her monetary based policies into place - and then he global crisis casued by the sub-prime mortgage fiasco lead to a collapse of many monetary markets, including our own.
> 
> *So, pehaps if people's rights hadn't been eroded, perhaps if she hadn't managed to break the unoins and we still had a solid manufacturing base, then the country would not be in the mess it is in today.*


We can dream


----------



## rocco33

Spellweaver said:


> But this is not true. She believed that the best way to take the country forwards was to adopt a free-market policy and the unions were in her way, so she had to get rid of them.
> 
> And why were they in her way? Because adopting a free market policy not only meant the closure of our industrial framework and putting in its place a monetary framework, it also meant that millions would be out of work and the unions would fight for their jobs. So she had to get rid of them.
> 
> And who was right? Well, Thatcher took away people's rights, broke the unions, got her own way, put her monetary based policies into place - and then he global crisis casued by the sub-prime mortgage fiasco lead to a collapse of many monetary markets, including our own.
> 
> So, pehaps if people's rights hadn't been eroded, perhaps if she hadn't managed to break the unoins and we still had a solid manufacturing base, then the country would not be in the mess it is in today.


Long before Thatcher came to power the unions had brought down two governments - including a Labour one. The country was on it's knees, bankrupt - we had to go cap in hand to the IMF. I hate Thatcherism and I agree that what she started morphed into the financial crisis we have now. She should never have stayed in, however, Labour had 13 years to correct the damage she had done but did NOTHING except carry on - that wasn't her fault - they could have done so much to reverse it.

However, back to the Unions - if they hadn't got rid of two governments for their own ends, she would never have come to power. In fact, she was pretty much elected leader of the Tory party because they thought she'd fail and no one else had any solutions to the problems the country was in.


----------



## Goblin

We keep hearing jobs were lost under MT however how many of those jobs were going to be lost anyway? 

What was the reputation of standard british cars at the time? Fine if you could afford a Rolls, but standard cars.. England was renown for individual craftsmanship but that cost and most people wouldn't buy it. 

People ignore the effort MT took to bring sustainable, long term industry into the country. I remember how many people were against foreign business coming here and potentially competing with existing companies yet those existing companies weren't competitive in the global market.. I remember industrial robots becoming practical in factories and the resistance to them. They will replace people was the argument. Yes, but without them companies didn't stay competitive and everyone in the company would lose out. It was a time of substantial change. 

MT is just a scapegoat, a failure to recognise that some industry types were doomed without substantial changes and people weren't going to accept the changes necessary. Without change companies will fail, the rise of computers have caused the loss of how many jobs? Narrowing it down to a more detailed level, desktop publishing is now dying out. Desktop publishers can recognize that and plan ahead, retraining if necessary or they can say "nope I'll be okay. I'm irreplaceable". Who will have a job in 10 years time? When in 10 years time the "I'm irreplaceable" person no longer has employment should they say "it's the PM's fault".


----------



## Magnus

Spellweaver said:


> Magnus' version of the truth is mere tory propaganda. And the vitriol which he spits out at anyone who does not fall in line with his peculiar tory-tainted version of the truth - from politicians, through football clubs, to posters on here - mirrors the way in which Thatcher herself used to act.
> 
> No wonder he thinks she was so marvellous - but while ever he is regurguitating her spin he is miles away from the real truth.


Tripe Spellweaver, total tripe.

As the son of an Irish immigrant and the grandson of a Durham miner mine was not a Tory upbringing in Labour dominated Teesside. My recollection of the facts are clear and my memories of the hardships prior to Maggie also.

Without rhetoric or opinion I will give you five statements:


The TUC did not back the miners strike

Scargill refused to have a National ballot to vindicate the strike.

Margaret Thatcher asked the NUM to hold a ballot to legalise the strike.

Approx 290 pits closed under Wilson and 160 under Thatcher.

Miners were striking against closures before Maggie came to power.

Right - I make no political statement no rhetoric just 5 basic truths. Can you tell me that any of those five statements are wrong?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Oh dear

Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead headed for Official Top 5

Ding Dong The Witch is Dead - YouTube

Now I shouldn't laugh


----------



## Waterlily

Happy Paws said:


> Oh dear
> 
> Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead headed for Official Top 5
> 
> Ding Dong The Witch is Dead - YouTube
> 
> Now I shouldn't laugh


yeh... how many days this has been going on.. blah blah.. kinda stopped being funny... hm I dunno........ when it started :shrug:


----------



## JAChihuahua

Spellweaver said:


> But this is not true. She believed that the best way to take the country forwards was to adopt a free-market policy and the unions were in her way, so she had to get rid of them.
> 
> And why were they in her way? Because adopting a free market policy not only meant the closure of our industrial framework and putting in its place a monetary framework, it also meant that millions would be out of work and the unions would fight for their jobs. So she had to get rid of them.
> 
> And who was right? Well, Thatcher took away people's rights, broke the unions, got her own way, put her monetary based policies into place - and then he global crisis casued by the sub-prime mortgage fiasco lead to a collapse of many monetary markets, including our own.
> 
> So, pehaps if people's rights hadn't been eroded, perhaps if she hadn't managed to break the unoins and we still had a solid manufacturing base, then the country would not be in the mess it is in today.


Dont forget that unemployment tripled when she took power, by 1981 it had exceeded even the record setting unemployment figures of the 1930's!

By 1985 the UK had become a net importer, meaning we had to import (and still do) almost all our goods and began to import coal as a fuel at a huge rate. According to hm parliament documents (google them!) and hm treasury documents, we were importing over 55billion pounds worth of coal in 1985, yet in 1984 we were importing less than 40 million pounds worth. Ahhh, and the costs of the coal (including the strikes!) from the uk? less than 5 billion pounds.... No denying that the NCB made a £100 million loss, still doesnt explain the need to begin importing coat at such high amounts in 1985, except to say that it certainly doesnt look cheaper to me!

I'll leave you with the final quote of the treasury document!



> For the time being I am sure you are right to suggest that we should avoid being drawn on the 1985-1986 costs. If we ever need to render an account for that element, I suggest it might be sensible to do so in the budget next year or at some other time where it might be drowned out by other news. We can deal with that if the time comes.


----------



## Supasilvfoxy

Tinder said:


> How was i stereotyping anyone? I was speculating as to where people were from and how far this has affected theirs views and experiences...I didn't say i knew for sure anything about anyone else so please don't say i've written things i haven't ok?
> 
> For one thing you're about 30 yrs older than me so presumably was at a very different stage in your life to where i was when she came to power. You weren't just starting out in life when there were 3 million unemployed and a plethora of government training schemes awaiting school leavers like me in the 80's.
> 
> To go on about how you've never been unemployed and how your daughter has a law degree... so what? I too was raised by parents with a good strong work ethic who would've expected me to go out and get a job after school. Guess whaqt though? There were none.
> 
> I've never been unemployed either...I was placed on "schemes" as a youngster along with the rest of my generation so that we wouldn't show up in the umemployment figures. I have a degree and so does my brother...big deal... we still hate Thatcher and have nothing to thank her for!
> 
> And of course you bought your council house. Which is one of the reasons you did very well under her. Hope you still live in it and didnt sell it on for a profit. The homeless people i work with could do with all those houses that were sold off as a result of her right to buy policy.


Ach! My daughter was 17 in 1981 and I well remember unemployment and lack of jobs. Guess what! she made use of her degree - she got a job - in fact she had 3, was going to college for her degree, Saturday's in a fish shop and a paper round. I was a riding school teacher, I also looked after other peoples dogs and worked in a local garage on my days off to make ends meet. We didn't waste energy weeping and wailing thinking the world owed us a living, we got off our arses and got stuck in. Wasn't easy I admit, but we did it. Yep! Mrs T wasn't the only lady that had balls in those days.

Nope! I don't live in the house we brought from the council, but my daughter does. So...we didn't sell it for a profit. Buying it did take us off the housing list though, which freed up space for others...just saying.


----------



## 1290423

Keeping out of this one
But just wanna say!
If the NEXT prime minister has just HALF the balls Maggie had then they WILL be gifted

And FIT to run our country


and whilst you are dissing Maggie! remember Arthur wern;t an angel either!
The miners were just a pawn in there game! sad but true!

hope you;ll be dancing on his grave too


----------



## Colliebarmy

Spellweaver said:


> The difference was that Thatcher's closure of the pits (and the steelworks) had nothing to do with whether or not they were viable. Her agenda was to break the power of unions so that she could have a free reign in her policies of privatisation, deregulation and allowing economic market forces to control the country's economy.


so whats the difference between not viable and economic forces?

none


----------



## Tinder

Supasilvfoxy said:


> Ach! My daughter was 17 in 1981 and I well remember unemployment and lack of jobs. Guess what! she made use of her degree - she got a job - in fact she had 3, was going to college for her degree, Saturday's in a fish shop and a paper round. I was a riding school teacher, I also looked after other peoples dogs and worked in a local garage on my days off to make ends meet. We didn't waste energy weeping and wailing thinking the world owed us a living, we got off our arses and got stuck in. Wasn't easy I admit, but we did it. Yep! Mrs T wasn't the only lady that had balls in those days.
> 
> Nope! I don't live in the house we brought from the council, but my daughter does. So...we didn't sell it for a profit. Buying it did take us off the housing list though, which freed up space for others...just saying.


Your daughter was fortunate then wasn't she to have not just 1 but 3 jobs at a time of mass unemployment when competition for those jobs would've been at an all-time high? Oh sorry no she probably just had "balls" and was prepared to "get stuck in" unlike all those weeping, wailing unemployed people.

Your tone is unbelievably patronising. Just saying.


----------



## 1290423

JANICE199 said:


> *It's to debate her legacy and pay tribute..i would have thought they could do that at her funeral.*


She did you a favour Jan wiff your council house
you gonna give it back?


----------



## Spellweaver

[


rocco33 said:


> . The country was on it's knees, bankrupt - we had to go cap in hand to the IMF.


But the country wasn't really in the kind of mess pre-Thatcher that some people are trying to make out. I lived through it all too - and what I saw and experienced was nothing like what you have said above. The facts about the state of the country would seem to support my view. Apologies for the long quote below, but Neil Clarke says it much more eloquently than I can:

_It's true that inflation hit 27 per cent in 1975, but this was largely a consequence of the Yom Kippur War oil price shock, which saw oil prices quadruple, and not a sign that the economy model had collapsed.

By 1978, the British economy was rapidly improving. Inflation was down to single figures and unemployment was falling too. Productivity was rising, including in the nationalised industries. North sea oil revenues were starting to transform the balance of payments, which showed a surplus of £109m in 1977. And in December 1978 Britain recorded a massive trade surplus of £246m

During 1978, Britain's standard of living rose by 6.4 per cent to reach its highest ever level

"The outlook for Britain is better than at any time in the postwar years," was the verdict, not of a Labour party propagandist, but of Chase Manhattan bank's chief European economist, Geoffrey Maynard.

Bernard Nossiter, a Washington Post journalist, argued in his 1978 book Britain- the Future that Works, that Britain, unlike the US, had created a contented society that had managed to get the balance right between work, leisure and remuneration.

Far from having had enough of Labour and the post-war consensus, opinion polls show that the party would have won a General Election, had Prime Minister James Callaghan called one, as expected, for October 1978. _

_The so-called 'Winter of Discontent' of 1979 - which ushered in Thatcherism - is also shrouded in myth. James Callaghan never said 'Crisis, what crisis' - that was an invention of The Sun. The strikes themselves only lasted for a comparatively short period and were largely over by February 1979. _

_One might ask why all this matters. It does, because if we are going to break with neoliberalism, we need to shatter the myths put forward by Thatcherite ideologues. We need to understand the truth which was that the British economy performed far better 30 years ago than is commonly believed. The mixed economy model didn't fail. We were no more in need of Mrs Thatcher's 'painful medicine', than someone suffering from a common cold needs a course of chemotherapy. _

_Acknowledging the truth about the 1970s is important, because it means that we can then return to an economic model that served the great majority of Britons extraordinarily well for over 30 years after World War Two. It was a model under which large sections of the economy - including transport, energy and most major industries - were in public ownership; capitalism was strictly regulated and made to work for the common good and manufacturing was regarded as more important than finance. _

_In no other period in British history was there such a rapid rise in living standards. The gap between rich and poor was significantly reduced. As the One Nation Tory Harold Macmillan, one of the architects of the post-war consensus, famously declared, we never had it so good_.

_Since 1979 we have followed a very different economic path: one of deregulation, privatisation and allowing 'market forces' to rule the roost. And we all know where that has led us._

Neil Clark: Don't believe the myth- Margaret Thatcher ruined egalitarian 1970s Britain



Magnus said:


> Tripe Spellweaver, total tripe.


No vitriol there then!



Magnus said:


> As the son of an Irish immigrant and the grandson of a Durham miner mine was not a Tory upbringing in Labour dominated Teesside. My recollection of the facts are clear and my memories of the hardships prior to Maggie also. ;


Surely you can't be saying that anyone born into a working class background cannot have tory values?



Magnus said:


> Without rhetoric or opinion I will give you five statements:
> 
> 
> The TUC did not back the miners strike
> True - but your point is?
> 
> Scargill refused to have a National ballot to vindicate the strike.
> Wrong - the delegates democratically voted for no national ballot. Scargill had expected the opposite:
> 
> Arthur Scargill: 'We could surrender - or stand and fight' | Politics | The Guardian
> _McGahey, Heathfield and I had done the arithmetic beforehand, and were truly surprised that when the vote was taken, delegates rejected calls for a national strike ballot and decided instead to call on all miners to refuse to cross picket lines - and join the 140,000 already on strike. We later learned that members of one area delegation had been so moved by the arguments put forward in the debate that they'd held an impromptu meeting and switched their vote in support of the area strikes in accordance with Rule 41_.
> 
> Margaret Thatcher asked the NUM to hold a ballot to legalise the strike.
> The delegates had voted democratically not to have a national bellot
> 
> Approx 290 pits closed under Wilson and 160 under Thatcher.
> With none of the problems Thatcher encountered. So what's your point here?
> 
> Miners were striking against closures before Maggie came to power.
> That's what happens - strikes are taking place today over unfair governmental policies - again, what's your point?


----------



## 1290423

Spellweaver said:


> [
> 
> But the country wasn't really in the kind of mess pre-Thatcher that some people are trying to make out. I lived through it all too - and what I saw and experienced was nothing like what you have said above. The facts about the state of the country would seem to support my view. Apologies for the long quote below, but Neil Clarke says it much more eloquently than I can:
> 
> _It's true that inflation hit 27 per cent in 1975, but this was largely a consequence of the Yom Kippur War oil price shock, which saw oil prices quadruple, and not a sign that the economy model had collapsed.
> 
> By 1978, the British economy was rapidly improving. Inflation was down to single figures and unemployment was falling too. Productivity was rising, including in the nationalised industries. North sea oil revenues were starting to transform the balance of payments, which showed a surplus of £109m in 1977. And in December 1978 Britain recorded a massive trade surplus of £246m
> 
> During 1978, Britain's standard of living rose by 6.4 per cent to reach its highest ever level
> 
> "The outlook for Britain is better than at any time in the postwar years," was the verdict, not of a Labour party propagandist, but of Chase Manhattan bank's chief European economist, Geoffrey Maynard.
> 
> Bernard Nossiter, a Washington Post journalist, argued in his 1978 book Britain- the Future that Works, that Britain, unlike the US, had created a contented society that had managed to get the balance right between work, leisure and remuneration.
> 
> Far from having had enough of Labour and the post-war consensus, opinion polls show that the party would have won a General Election, had Prime Minister James Callaghan called one, as expected, for October 1978. _
> 
> _The so-called 'Winter of Discontent' of 1979 - which ushered in Thatcherism - is also shrouded in myth. James Callaghan never said 'Crisis, what crisis' - that was an invention of The Sun. The strikes themselves only lasted for a comparatively short period and were largely over by February 1979. _
> 
> _One might ask why all this matters. It does, because if we are going to break with neoliberalism, we need to shatter the myths put forward by Thatcherite ideologues. We need to understand the truth which was that the British economy performed far better 30 years ago than is commonly believed. The mixed economy model didn't fail. We were no more in need of Mrs Thatcher's 'painful medicine', than someone suffering from a common cold needs a course of chemotherapy. _
> 
> _Acknowledging the truth about the 1970s is important, because it means that we can then return to an economic model that served the great majority of Britons extraordinarily well for over 30 years after World War Two. It was a model under which large sections of the economy - including transport, energy and most major industries - were in public ownership; capitalism was strictly regulated and made to work for the common good and manufacturing was regarded as more important than finance. _
> 
> _In no other period in British history was there such a rapid rise in living standards. The gap between rich and poor was significantly reduced. As the One Nation Tory Harold Macmillan, one of the architects of the post-war consensus, famously declared, we never had it so good_.
> 
> _Since 1979 we have followed a very different economic path: one of deregulation, privatisation and allowing 'market forces' to rule the roost. And we all know where that has led us._
> 
> Neil Clark: Don't believe the myth- Margaret Thatcher ruined egalitarian 1970s Britain
> 
> No vitriol there then!
> 
> Surely you can't be saying that anyone born into a working class background cannot have tory values?


Fact is Val we were well and truly knackered before Maggie took the reins!
YEP she did some wrong! but she sure as hell stood up for us too!
This dancing on her grave malarkey is just been passed on from generation to generation, you know the drill! each generation just add a little more to it!

And arfa scargal weren't so daft as he made out either!!
it were a game and the miners were just pawns!
sad but true! without #HIM there would never have been a problem!
BUT then it were too late for the miners - those that really suffered, no one heard nor cared what they had to say!


----------



## MoggyBaby

Tinder said:


> *I'll probably be shot down for this but I wonder (not for the first time on here the last couple of days) how much of this really is a north/south divide thing?*
> 
> *(As i've read Thatcher posts I am clocking up a tally of where posters are from or live now...can't help it really 'cause i do think overall the south faired much better under her than northern England, Scotland & wales)*.





Tinder said:


> *How was i stereotyping anyone? I was speculating as to where people were from and how far this has affected theirs views and experiences...
> 
> You weren't just starting out in life when there were 3 million unemployed and a plethora of government training schemes awaiting school leavers like me in the 80's.
> 
> To go on about how you've never been unemployed and how your daughter has a law degree... so what? I too was raised by parents with a good strong work ethic who would've expected me to go out and get a job after school. Guess whaqt though? There were none.
> 
> I've never been unemployed either...I was placed on "schemes" as a youngster along with the rest of my generation so that we wouldn't show up in the umemployment figures. I have a degree and so does my brother...big deal... we still hate Thatcher and have nothing to thank her for! *


I left school in 1983 - totally under the 'regime' of that 'evil witch of a woman'. I lived in Glasgow, a place very much in Scotland. I was brought up in a one parent family so no privilidge there.

My first full-time job came from my Saturday job. I was a good worker so when I 'asked' to be taken on full-time, I was.

When I decided to change jobs, I walked into the next place and 'asked' for a job. I got one.

And the same for the next one after that. I walked in and 'asked' for a job. And got one!!

Getting a job in the 'Thatcher' years came down to your attitude - wait for a job to be presented to you and you got nothing. Pull on yer boots and go out and find one - result!!!!


----------



## Colliebarmy

MoggyBaby said:


> Getting a job in the 'Thatcher' years came down to your attitude - wait for a job to be presented to you and you got nothing. Pull on yer boots and go out and find one - result!!!!


Those who expected a "job for life" got the biggest shocks, like pits/dockyards/steel/railways....


----------



## cheekyscrip

wish though that MT was there to negotiate british position in EU...wouldn't we all?........

neither France nor Germany will push her around...she will not pay for laziness and corruption in other countries either...she will not let Spain bully British !!!! Gibraltar lending Spain 10 bln or more at the same time...?...and invade our waters accusing British navey that tthey bully poor fishermen!!!



I much rather she was doing the job Blair supposedly doing ! 

( have nothing to do with Tories..swear!!!)


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> wish though that MT was there to negotiate british position in EU...wouldn't we all?........
> 
> neither france nor gaermany will push her around...she willnot pay for laziness and corruption in other countries either...she willnot let spain Bully British !!!! Gibraltar lednding Spain 10 bln or more?
> 
> I much rather she was doing the job Blair supposedly doing !
> 
> ( have nothing to do with Tories..swear!!!)


Think meself that if MT were here today we would not be in half the **** we are in
still wish they would enforce a law whereby they seized ALL the council houses they sold though


----------



## cheekyscrip

we cannot bring back MT...
but maybe DT can step in???


:devil:
EU :


TREMBLE!!!


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> we cannot bring back MT...
> but maybe DT can step in???
> 
> :devil:
> EU :
> 
> TREMBLE!!!


you really do not know how close from the truth you are there


----------



## Tinder

MoggyBaby said:


> I left school in 1983 - totally under the 'regime' of that 'evil witch of a woman'. I lived in Glasgow, a place very much in Scotland. I was brought up in a one parent family so no privilidge there.
> 
> My first full-time job came from my Saturday job. I was a good worker so when I 'asked' to be taken on full-time, I was.
> 
> When I decided to change jobs, I walked into the next place and 'asked' for a job. I got one.
> 
> And the same for the next one after that. I walked in and 'asked' for a job. And got one!!
> 
> Getting a job in the 'Thatcher' years came down to your attitude - wait for a job to be presented to you and you got nothing. Pull on yer boots and go out and find one - result!!!!


I don't remember any of my friends leaving school in 85/86 and going straight into a job. It was all YTS YTS YTS that was pushed onto us. Maybe the world was my oyster but I certainly didn't feel like it was. Not sure why my experience would differ so much from yours MB. I was certainly never brought up to believe the world owed me a living or that things would just be handed to me. I lost both parents before the age of 21. No-one has ever had to wipe my arse for me either.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> you really do not know how close from the truth you are there


I do wish you unleash your power of persuasion :devil: on Spanish chorizos...the corruptionn in PP stinks to high heaven...and Gibraltar is abused as a diversion...sort of "kick the dwarf"

you never lacked "cohones"so off ya go...

or else we may get the Miliband The Younger..and I am not overly turn on by that one...not even if he was covered in chocolate...


----------



## tincan

Perhaps it would have been better to use the cash from council house sales , to build more social housing , I hold my hand up we bought ours in the 80's 87 i think , would have been a fool not to.......
If not for MT's policy on that i doubt we would have got on the ladder , well maybe not as quickly .... when we sold we did not make a massive profit , none-the-less a profit was made , but that was 8yrs after .... 

However what we spent in fixing it up , windows, heating , kitchen, internal building etc took any profit to a minimum ..... even so whether people like it or not ,we did it and it was all down to Maggie


----------



## Happy Paws2

tincan said:


> Perhaps it would have been better to use the cash from council house sales , to build more social housing , I hold my hand up we bought ours in the 80's 87 i think , would have been a fool not to.......
> If not for MT's policy on that i doubt we would have got on the ladder , well maybe not as quickly .... when we sold we did not make a massive profit , none-the-less a profit was made , but that was 8yrs after ....
> 
> However what we spent in fixing it up , windows, heating , kitchen, internal building etc took any profit to a minimum ..... even so whether people like it or not ,we did it and it was all down to Maggie


That's why the housing stock is so low and councils weren't allowed to use any of the money from selling houses to built new ones.


----------



## Meezey

Not one for Politics, other than the fact she is someones Mother first and foremost I'm sure her kids would rather her still be here...........

I am an Army Brat, and she was good to the forces, very good 30% pay increase over night. 

Lets face it OUR OWN government of late has done something that no other country has ever managed to do and that's bring our Forces to their knees..... I find that so sad............ She might have sent them to War ( as have many PM's) but she bloody made sure they were looked after....

That's my bit.......


----------



## tincan

Happy Paws said:


> That's why the housing stock is so low and councils weren't allowed to use any of the money from selling houses to built new ones.


.... I totally agree .... new housing stock should have been built from the income of sales .... but even labour when they came in didn't change that policy .... why ? ... You can't blame (not you) people for taking advantage of something that if within their means , they could possibly never dream of .....


----------



## Tinder

You can't blame people at all for taking advantage of RTB. You also can't blame people like me though for thinking it was just another cynical ploy on behalf of her government to secure working class support that she'd probably never had got otherwise.
ETA ...and deluding working class people into thinking as property owners they were now middle class instead of what they really were...working class people now saddled with 25 years of debt.


----------



## nutty

tincan said:


> .... I totally agree .... new housing stock should have been built from the income of sales .... but even labour when they came in didn't change that policy .... why ? ... You can't blame (not you) people for taking advantage of something that if within their means , they could possibly never dream of .....


My parents too, bought their council house. They would never have been able to buy otherwise. My father is no longer alive, but mum sold 2 years ago because she was no longer able to get up the stairs. No doubt some would argue that they were wrong to buy, but they had worked damn hard all their lives- they moved south when I was young so my dad could find work. My dad, I remember worked 2 jobs. Mum also worked full time. They wanted for us children better than they had, and I guess their wishes came true in a way. Yes, they had a council house, but they didnt have benefits- not at all.

I remember my grandad being out of work for a few weeks when I was young, and he made it his job every day to go out and look for work. He would go to all the factories and shops and companies, and keep going round the same ones. He stayed out for hours looking for work. He didnt just apply once to each place and then give up. That way, they got to know him and he did get his job in the end. I cannot see people doing this today, I really cannot, no matter how hard they think they try for jobs, who can say they stay out all day every day trying to secure work, and knocking on doors and not taking no for an answer? He didnt care what he did either. He was not a young man...well in to his 60s but he didnt give up. I am not comparing this to area where there is no work- the issues there are well documented, but comparing his philosophy with others today, is there something to be learned? I dont know, I am posing the question, not necessarily coming up with any answers...


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

call me daft but how can a bit of jobless hardship be in any comparison to the conditions of many other countries - even at our worst (not necessarily under MT) we were not threatening to freeze/take peoples savings!! 

I am not saying that all that glitters is gold - but the reality is it could have been worse, worse has been done by others

the reality is no matter what was done its done - grow up and deal with it geeze I would be a right bitter old bat if I allowed the things that happened in my past marr my life (I was physically abused by my mum), do I use that an excuse for bitterness hell no, I use it as an excuse to be better and I refuse to let it consume me x


----------



## MCWillow

I bought my house on the RTB scheme, and I've never thought myself to be in any class at all.

Were all these 'working class' people that stupid that they could be deluded so easily into thinking they were now 'middle class' because they owned a house?

I never have understood all that 'class' nonsense - people are people, some have more than others, some have less than others.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

MCWillow said:


> I bought my house on the RTB scheme, and I've never thought myself to be in any class at all.
> 
> Were all these 'working class' people that stupid that they could be deluded so easily into thinking they were now 'middle class' because they owned a house?
> 
> I never have understood all that 'class' nonsense - people are people, some have more than others, some have less than others.


I find class is used as a bit of 2x4 to batter people over the head (either way up or down) to make people feel guilty x


----------



## JANICE199

MCWillow said:


> I bought my house on the RTB scheme, and I've never thought myself to be in any class at all.
> 
> Were all these 'working class' people that stupid that they could be deluded so easily into thinking they were now 'middle class' because they owned a house?
> 
> I never have understood all that 'class' nonsense - people are people, some have more than others, some have less than others.


*My neighbour thought she was middle class when she bought her council house,lol. *


----------



## tincan

Tinder said:


> You can't blame people at all for taking advantage of RTB. You also can't blame people like me though for thinking it was just another cynical ploy on behalf of her government to secure working class support that she'd probably never had got otherwise.
> ETA ...and deluding working class people into thinking as property owners they were now middle class instead of what they really were...working class people now saddled with 25 years of debt.


......

You have your opinion , that's fine , i have mine.....

No one more cynical than me ... I don't blame you for your opinion ....

we were certainly not deluded , knew exactly what we were doing , and we do not class ourselves as anything , other than hard grafters , and a standard mortgage for anyone is 25yrs ,in fact they allow longer now ....

don't lump everyone into a catagory , you have no idea of folks personal finances/lifestyle , we've had it tough , and we've had it good , but we've bloody worked hard to be where we are now .... feckin hell i despair


----------



## Tinder

MCWillow said:


> Were all these 'working class' people that stupid that they could be deluded so easily into thinking they were now 'middle class' because they owned a house?


Possibly. I dunno McWillow what do you think? Some were deluded in that way. Some weren't. I'm not sure if it was stupidity or if they were just blinded by greed.



MCWillow said:


> I never have understood all that 'class' nonsense...


Perhaps have a read of this then...

Seven new categories of social class: How the markers have changed - Comment - Voices - The Independent


----------



## Tinder

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> ...grow up and deal with it geeze I would be a right bitter old bat if I allowed the things that happened in my past marr my life (I was physically abused by my mum), do I use that an excuse for bitterness hell no, I use it as an excuse to be better and I refuse to let it consume me x


Who is this aimed at?


----------



## MCWillow

Tinder said:


> Possibly. I dunno McWillow what do you think? Some were deluded in that way. Some weren't. I'm not sure if it was stupidity or if they were just blinded by greed.


Why do you think its greed to want to own your own home?
Are you saying that anyone who bought their council house on the RTB scheme were either stupid or greedy?



> Perhaps have a read of this then...
> 
> Seven new categories of social class: How the markers have changed - Comment - Voices - The Independent


Oh I did this when it was posted earlier this week (?)

Apparently I am established middle class 

I wonder if I am a stupid established middle class person, or a greedy established middle class person.....


----------



## tincan

Tinder said:


> Who is this aimed at?


it's aimed at the ignorant and blinded ,,,,, for crying out loud ... LOads of working class (ffs ) made it good ..... and not off the bleeding back of MT ... we all , well some of us carried on regardless, doing what we needed to . To survive , still doing it now , move where the work is , leave your family. friends , people you love , it has to be done ..... so don't blame her .... life has always been like this .... I hate it tbh but in the end it will work out right for us ...


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

Tinder said:


> Who is this aimed at?


any one who deems themselves worthy as cannon fodder 

as for the class link posted

I am 'lower elite class'

yet my dad, mum, grandfather/mother on my fathers side and grandmother on my mums working class eh?


----------



## Supasilvfoxy

Tinder said:


> Your daughter was fortunate then wasn't she to have not just 1 but 3 jobs at a time of mass unemployment when competition for those jobs would've been at an all-time high? Oh sorry no she probably just had "balls" and was prepared to "get stuck in" unlike all those weeping, wailing unemployed people.
> 
> Your tone is unbelievably patronising. Just saying.


Patronising???? I hardly call what I posted patronising. Sorry! Was just saying like it was, is and ever shall be. I can't abide whingers.

Nuff said! afore I spoil me manners - as me old mum used to say. BTW she had balls as well, needed to to have a dozen kids and she worked, guess it rubs off. Yeah! in my day 'working class' meant just that - voted Labour too, not Tory, even if we were Southerners.


----------



## Wobbles

RIP Lady Thatcher. 

You did good. We need another like you again.


----------



## Spellweaver

Interesting question just been posed on "Question Time" - if Thatcher was so marvellous and so well-liked, why did the tory party get rid of her in her prime?

Why indeed? Good question - answers, anyone?


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

Spellweaver said:


> Interesting question just been posed on "Question Time" - if Thatcher was so marvellous and so well-liked, why did the tory party get rid of her in her prime?
> 
> Why indeed? Good question - answers, anyone?


because she was past it x doh!! why does any leader go? I have no allegiance to MT or any other political leader for that matter, but like they say what happened in the 80's stays in the 80's x


----------



## Tinder

MCWillow said:


> Why do you think its greed to want to own your own home?


No. I do think it's greedy to buy it with the intention of profiting from it though as many have.
What's the figure now? Something like a third(?) of all ex council houses are now in the hands of private landlords renting them out? Surely that wasn't the intenton behind RTB was it?



> Are you saying that anyone who bought their council house on the RTB scheme were either stupid or greedy?


Again no. But wonder how many would've still bought them had they known the social housing crisis we would have today? Would they have cared if they had known?


----------



## 1290423

well she got our attention then
And she's getting it now


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

Tinder said:


> No. I do think it's greedy to buy it with the intention of profiting from it though as many have.
> What's the figure now? Something like a third(?) of all ex council houses are now in the hands of private landlords renting them out? Surely that wasn't the intenton behind RTB was it?


no but its the right of a free economic community - what cake and eat it!!

so - does she have the right to be interned with dignity?


----------



## tincan

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> no but its the right of a free economic community - what cake and eat it!!
> 
> so - does she have the right to be interned with dignity?


.....

Absolutely regardless of whatever , ..... DIGNITY has fek all to do with politics , or her life , dignity in death is a rite of passage imo ....


----------



## MCWillow

Tinder said:


> No. I do think it's greedy to buy it with the intention of profiting from it though as many have.
> What's the figure now? Something like a third(?) of all ex council houses are now in the hands of private landlords renting them out? Surely that wasn't the intenton behind RTB was it?


I would imagine anyone that buys a house hopes to make a profit when they sell it. Or should people that bought their houses on the RTB scheme be expected to live in them until they die?

Anyone that bought a house on the RTB scheme should stay exactly where they are and not be allowed to move _up_ the property ladder?

I doubt many people ask prospective buyers of their houses if they are landlords buying it to rent out, or if they will live in it themselves.

Without a crystal ball, or seance, I guess we won't know what the intention behind the scheme was. Unless it was to give more people a chance to get on the property ladder, which would be my guess.



> Again no. But wonder how many would've still bought them had they known the social housing crisis we would have today? Would they have cared if they had known?


I would imagine anyone that had a chance to buy their own homes would.

I bought my house so I could make sure my son had a roof over his head. I can't worry about other peoples sons or daughters until I know mine is OK.


----------



## 1290423

Tinder said:


> No. I do think it's greedy to buy it with the intention of profiting from it though as many have.
> What's the figure now? Something like a third(?) of all ex council houses are now in the hands of private landlords renting them out? Surely that wasn't the intenton behind RTB was it?
> 
> Again no. But wonder how many would've still bought them had they known the social housing crisis we would have today? Would they have cared if they had known?


Maggie made it possible for many to get onto the housing ladder .
And no it was not greedy buying with the intention of profiting! DO any of us buy houses with the intention f losing money?? do we?
The mistake she made were NOT allowing the councils to re invest the profits from thoses sales into new houses.

Yes we have a housing crisis now!! BUT our population has increased since the 80's and the influx from the EU in certainly not helping the housing crisis!
BUT then many don't seem to want to talk about that


----------



## Spellweaver

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> because she was past it x doh!! why does any leader go? I have no allegiance to MT or any other political leader for that matter, but like they say what happened in the 80's stays in the 80's x


But she wasn't past it - she was in her prime 

And as for what happened in the 80s staying in the 80s - well, if only that were true. The sad thing is, Thatcher's monetarist policies from the 80s are driectly rsponsible for the financial situation of the country today. Had she not destroyed our manufacturing base and replaced it with a free-market monetary base, we would have been much better placed to survive the global financial crisis.


----------



## 1290423

Spellweaver said:


> But she wasn't past it - she was in her prime
> 
> And as for what happened in the 80s staying in the 80s - well, if only that were true. The sad thing is, Thatcher's monetarist policies from the 80s are driectly rsponsible for the financial situation of the country today. Had she not destroyed our manufacturing base and replaced it with a free-market monetary base, we would have been much better placed to survive the global financial crisis.


And had we not had a muppet selling off all our gold reserves when gold were at an all time low didn't help either
what would those gold reserves be worth now I wonder?


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

Spellweaver said:


> But she wasn't past it - she was in her prime
> 
> *And as for what happened in the 80s staying in the 80s* - well, if only that were true. The sad thing is, Thatcher's monetarist policies from the 80s are driectly rsponsible for the financial situation of the country today. Had she not destroyed our manufacturing base and replaced it with a free-market monetary base, we would have been much better placed to survive the global financial crisis.


according to who?


----------



## Colliebarmy

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> according to who?


Spellweaver

you read it here first


----------



## 1290423

We are not rebuilding the countries gold reserves


----------



## Colliebarmy

DT said:


> And had we not had a muppet selling off all our gold reserves when gold were at an all time low didn't help either
> what would those gold reserves be worth now I wonder?


Not sure about todays price but....

update --- USD 1560



> Gold prices remained relatively low until 2001, when the price began consistently rising in a protracted bull market. By 2007, the price of gold had reached US$675, and the loss to the UK taxpayer was estimated at more than £2 billion, as the Euros bought with the proceeds had also risen in value.
> 
> The gold price briefly passed US$1,000 per ounce in March 2008, before reaching all-time highs of $1,043.77 on 6 October 2009 and $1,048.40 on 7 October 2009, by which time the loss to the UK taxpayer was approximately £4 billion. Gold prices continued to rise, reaching a new all-time high of US$1,896.50 per ounce at the London morning Gold Fix of 5 September 2011.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

Spellweaver said:


> *But she wasn't past it - she was in her prime*
> 
> And as for what happened in the 80s staying in the 80s- well, if only that were true. The sad thing is, Thatcher's monetarist policies from the 80s are driectly rsponsible for the financial situation of the country today. Had she not destroyed our manufacturing base and replaced it with a free-market monetary base, we would have been much better placed to survive the global financial crisis.


according to who?

there is no way we could ever compete with manufacturing and that was before the NMW - how could we even compete against China/india with or without MT, maybe MT could see that and there is no pain with no gain x

my last point - my mum was not nice, she made her sole decisions and acted on them, MT was surrounded by advisors and officials, do you really believe ONE person is responsible x


----------



## tincan

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> according to who?


.....

I re-iterate labour has been in power since Maggie , so why if it was so ,frickin bad did they not reverse her so called sh1t policies ... jesus christ :mad2:

Jods soz that was not aimed at you , i just could'nt do the quote thing properly


----------



## 1290423

MCWillow said:


> I would imagine anyone that buys a house hopes to make a profit when they sell it. Or should people that bought their houses on the RTB scheme be expected to live in them until they die?
> 
> Anyone that bought a house on the RTB scheme should stay exactly where they are and not be allowed to move _up_ the property ladder?
> 
> I doubt many people ask prospective buyers of their houses if they are landlords buying it to rent out, or if they will live in it themselves.
> 
> Without a crystal ball, or seance, I guess we won't know what the intention behind the scheme was. Unless it was to give more people a chance to get on the property ladder, which would be my guess.
> 
> I would imagine anyone that had a chance to buy their own homes would.
> 
> I bought my house so I could make sure my son had a roof over his head. I can't worry about other peoples sons or daughters until I know mine is OK.


 Well lets face those who didn't buy their council house when offered a 60% discount must be three sheets to the wind
AND the mortgage were less then the rent!


----------



## 1290423

tincan said:


> .....
> 
> I re-iterate labour has been in power since Maggie , so why if it was so ,frickin bad did they not reverse her so called sh1t policies ... jesus christ :mad2:


do they have backbones?
any of them?


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

Colliebarmy said:


> Spellweaver
> 
> you read it here first


ha ha darn puter and having to share x yet I am the lower elite (darn one laptop in my house) doh!! I am the numpty alert tonight


----------



## MCWillow

DT said:


> Well lets face those who didn't buy their council house when offered a 60% discount must be three sheets to the wind
> AND the mortgage were less then the rent!


60%?? And people are asking if they would have still bought them if they knew what the housing would be like today?? 

I got 29%, and my mortgage was the same as my rent, and I knew _that_ was a good deal!

Buying my house was the best thing I ever did :yesnod:


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

tincan said:


> .....
> 
> Jods soz that was not aimed at you , i just could'nt do the quote thing properly


I dont think I was doing any better tbh


----------



## Magnus

Political parties change their leaders when they believe that they can't win the next election with them in place.
After the poll tax riots the party obviously felt they had to change leader to have a chance in the next election.
It's the same reason why Labour ditched Kinnock and why Gordon Brown is no longer selling off our gold reserves for two and sixpence.

She was the longest serving PM for 150 years despite inheriting a total mess with the measures needed to fix it making her unpopular. Same thing is happening now and, it pains me to say it, the same thing will always happen after the ovine majority vote in a Labour government who will inevitably leave a mess.
Following Labour is like following a muck cart.

I wish we had another Maggie to turn to now.


----------



## Colliebarmy

DT said:


> We are not rebuilding the countries gold reserves


bit late for that, we sold ours for Euro's

theres a story about that, cow --- beans ----


----------



## 1290423

MCWillow said:


> 60%?? And people are asking if they would have still bought them if they knew what the housing would be like today??
> 
> I got 29%, and my mortgage was the same as my rent, and I knew _that_ was a good deal!
> 
> Buying my house was the best thing I ever did :yes nod:


the discounts were up to 60%
you did well! and I no one can blame you - its human nature to want the best for your family xx


----------



## tincan

DT said:


> do they have backbones?
> any of them?


..... spineless the lot of them  ...

she had the courage of conviction to follow her policies thru , liked or hated she did what she thought was right , to bring this country back to where it should have been ..........

and the sh1t that flies about now , will soon be forgotten .... Maggie won't


----------



## MCWillow

Bliddy ell CB, stop it! I've 'liked' loads of your posts tonight, it just doesn't seem natural! 

PS: Glad you didn't fracture your skull.....  :lol:


----------



## 1290423

Magnus said:


> I wish we had another Maggie to turn to now.


don't we all
Now I finally understand 'why' I am standing for UKI~P


----------



## Tinder

DT said:


> The mistake she made were NOT allowing the councils to re invest the profits from thoses sales into new houses.


Well yeah obviously i agree. As I stated earlier _I don't blame anyone for buying their council house_ Just expressing the opinion that it was Thatcher's way of gaining support from people who may not traditionally have voted for her. She was very clever I'll give her that.


----------



## Colliebarmy

MCWillow said:


> Bliddy ell CB, stop it! I've 'liked' loads of your posts tonight, it just doesn't seem natural!
> 
> PS: Glad you didn't fracture your skull.....  :lol:


landed on a soft spot

my x-rays gone....


----------



## tincan

MCWillow said:


> Bliddy ell CB, stop it! I've 'liked' loads of your posts tonight, it just doesn't seem natural!
> 
> PS: Glad you didn't fracture your skull.....  :lol:


..... 
I will second that ... dear CB has been in top form say what , steady on lad , you may get a reputation


----------



## 1290423

tincan said:


> .....
> I will second that ... dear CB has been in top form say what , steady on lad , you may get a reputation


scrolls back to see what Cb.s been up too


----------



## Colliebarmy

tincan said:


> .....
> I will second that ... dear CB has been in top form say what , steady on lad , you may get a reputation


too late

got one.... :devil:


----------



## tincan

DT said:


> don't we all
> Now I finally understand 'why' I am standing for UKI~P


..... UKIP :yikes::yikes::yikes:


----------



## Colliebarmy

DT said:


> scrolls back to see what Cb.s been up too


wasnt me i swear


----------



## Tinder

DT said:


> don't we all
> Now I finally understand 'why' I am standing for UKI~P


Weren't they on about re-opening some of the closed coal mines a few years back?

Future is nuclear, says UKIP - UK Independence Party


----------



## paddyjulie

My parents bought their council home ...still live there ..and if the become ill and need to go in a home .it will be sold..and the money then goes back to the government /council or whatever ...if they had nothing ... They would still be cared for.....


----------



## 1290423

They should have cloned her
we'd be laffing now and Europe would have been stuffed


----------



## Nicky10

Whatever her politics were, and I don't agree with a lot of what she did, for such a strong woman to die in such a terrible way dementia and then a stroke is heartbreaking whoever it is.

She had bigger balls than most of the politicians nowdays and that's to be admired.


----------



## tincan

Bed for me guys  hubby's foot seems to be connecting with the ceiling ???? 

take care ... sleep well ... see you on Friday .... CB you get a green berry from me tonight x


----------



## 1290423

Nicky10 said:


> She had bigger balls than most of the politicians nowdays and that's to be admired.


Is there a Politian in office today that has a pair off balls?


----------



## 1290423

tincan said:


> Bed for me guys  habby's foot seems to be connecting with the ceiling ????
> 
> take care ... sleep well ... see you on Friday .... CB you get a green berry from me tonight x


red! red beret


----------



## tincan

DT said:


> red! red beret


.....

red red wine


----------



## Nicky10

DT said:


> Is there a Politian in office today that has a pair off balls?


:frown2: They're all as useless as each other


----------



## Colliebarmy

tincan said:


> .....
> 
> red red wine


Bob Marley Red Red Wine - YouTube


----------



## Wobbles

tincan said:


> ..... UKIP :yikes::yikes::yikes:


Yes, why not? At least they want the UK for the UK.

China looks after the Chinese
Japan looks after the Japanese
Canada looks after the Canadians 
America looks after the Americans
Australia looks after the Australians
Russia looks after the Russians
France looks after the French
Germany looks after the Germans
Ireland looks after the Irish
Britain looks after the whole world at the detriment and expense of its own

When somewhere in the world suffers a natural disaster like flooding what do we do? Raise money, release charity records and have a whip round. When somewhere in Britain suffers a natural disaster like flooding, what does the rest of the world do? Sweet FA. We're nothing to do with them. So why should they be something to do with us?

We need someone in charge who will look out for us, who has our interests at heart, who wants to run our country not sort out every bugger under the sun but us. It's prime minister of GREAT BRITAIN not prime minister of the whole bloody world. I would vote in anyone who remembered, respected and adhered to that fact. At least Maggie had a backbone and gave us one too, unlike the utter t0$$3rs that came after her who are more spineless than a jellyfish.


----------



## ozrex

> Australia looks after the Australians


Absolutely everyone in Australia says exactly what you're saying the Poms say about the UK but about Australia.

As for our attitude to refugees.... it sux and if I said what I really thought I'd be banned. We're a xenophobic bunch of 1#*!s with the compassion of rattlesnakes.

I just hope Mrs Thatcher has a seat close to the fire.....


----------



## porps

Wobbles said:


> When somewhere in the world suffers a natural disaster like flooding what do we do? Raise money, release charity records and have a whip round. When somewhere in Britain suffers a natural disaster like flooding, what does the rest of the world do? Sweet FA. We're nothing to do with them. So why should they be something to do with us?


i think thats true in regards to less advanced countries than our own but not for countires at the same level or beyond. To me it makes absolute sense that we get involved in something like the haiti earthquake but pretty much let america sort out their own problems when they get hit by hurricanes or whatever.


----------



## Colliebarmy

ozrex said:


> Absolutely everyone in Australia says exactly what you're saying the Poms say about the UK but about Australia.
> 
> As for our attitude to refugees.... it sux and if I said what I really thought I'd be banned. We're a xenophobic bunch of 1#*!s with the compassion of rattlesnakes.


I think your immigration dept (airport staff) are great, and the customs, we have a show about them here on TV, how I wish the UK Border control was as strict, maybe we wouldnt have 2 million illegals and foot and mouth coming in...

but why do aussies (especially the female staff) end a sentence by going up a octave?.....lol

why are you coming to austRALIA?


----------



## JANICE199

Spellweaver said:


> Interesting question just been posed on "Question Time" - if Thatcher was so marvellous and so well-liked, why did the tory party get rid of her in her prime?
> 
> Why indeed? Good question - answers, anyone?


*Totally agree it was a good question, i watched question time also. It might be just me, but i thought it was pretty much one sided.*


----------



## Knightofalbion

JANICE199 said:


> *Totally agree it was a good question, i watched question time also. It might be just me, but i thought it was pretty much one sided.*


The Tory grandees thought (rightly) that Mrs Thatcher had made an error of judgement introducing the Poll Tax and feared (very probably) that it would cost them the next election or lose them a working majority in Parliament. They were so power-hungry they stabbed Mrs Thatcher in the back. "Left to the mercy of her friends" as Mr Tebbit brilliantly described it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

JANICE199 said:


> *Totally agree it was a good question, i watched question time also. It might be just me, but i thought it was pretty much one sided.*


ssay: she was made of steel..but itis not flexible...
mines have to be closed..such is the nature non-renovable resources...
yet then there should be a plan as what then with the workers?...benefits are not the answer..and there she failed to grasp the problem...
Germans had the same problem and did better...

she was made of steel...nowadays we get guys made of rubber...which has its uses.....

yet the way Spain demands Gibraltar to be Spanish (why??? they gtraded it to Britian over 300 years ago???)...making frontier queues, choking our tourist industry..invading our waters...

and Britan cares so much more about what Spain thinks than own people here...it is disgusting..
and Tories are notmuch more joy than Labour or Lib....

If UKIP wins...ha,ha,ha,,....


----------



## poohdog

Colliebarmy said:


> but why do aussies (especially the female staff) end a sentence by going up a octave?.....lol
> 
> why are you coming to austRALIA?


I reckon they have a Duracell Bunny hidden in the nether regions that gives a mild electric shock to their lady bits at the end of every sentence..


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

Knightofalbion said:


> The Tory grandees thought (rightly) that Mrs Thatcher had made an error of judgement introducing the Poll Tax and feared (very probably) that it would cost them the next election or lose them a working majority in Parliament. They were so power-hungry they stabbed Mrs Thatcher in the back. "Left to the mercy of her friends" as Mr Tebbit brilliantly described it.


"et tu Brutus"


----------



## Colliebarmy

the poll tax was (roughly) use more/pay more

now at least there is a 25% reduction for single occupancy...


----------



## JAChihuahua

YouTube


----------



## MoggyBaby

Colliebarmy said:


> *the poll tax was (roughly) use more/pay more*
> now at least there is a 25% reduction for single occupancy...


A concept that is completely fair!!! It beggers belief that people had a problem with that issue.

I can fully understand them being p!ssed off though with the costs but this was the fault of their local councils for making the charges so damned ridiculous. However, the irony here is that it was the Labour run councils who instilled the highest charges but everyone prefers to blame the Tories. The Tory councils actually kept their charges extremely reasonable. 

But hey, god forbid any Labour supporter should be able to see how their party likes to rip them off time and again....!!!!


----------



## Spellweaver

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> according to who?





Colliebarmy said:


> Spellweaver
> 
> you read it here first


Well, you said it! But if this is really the first time either of you have read something of such political importance that is affecting your lives today, the fact that you read it first on a pet forum speaks volumes.



reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> there is no way we could ever compete with manufacturing and that was before the NMW - how could we even compete against China/india with or without MT, maybe MT could see that and there is no pain with no gain x


Absolute twaddle. British industry and manufacturing before Thatcher was widely held up as the best example of its kind in the world:

_By 1978, the British economy was rapidly improving. Inflation was down to single figures and unemployment was falling too. Productivity was rising, including in the nationalised industries. North sea oil revenues were starting to transform the balance of payments, which showed a surplus of £109m in 1977. And in December 1978 Britain recorded a massive trade surplus of £246m

"The outlook for Britain is better than at any time in the postwar years," was the verdict, not of a Labour party propagandist, but of Chase Manhattan bank's chief European economist, Geoffrey Maynard.

Bernard Nossiter, a Washington Post journalist, argued in his 1978 book Britain- the Future that Works, that Britain, unlike the US, had created a contented society that had managed to get the balance right between work, leisure and remuneration._
Neil Clark: Don't believe the myth- Margaret Thatcher ruined egalitarian 1970s Britain

We could have and did compete with any country in the world before Thacther destroyed it all.



reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> my last point - my mum was not nice, she made her sole decisions and acted on them, MT was surrounded by advisors and officials, do you really believe ONE person is responsible x


Thatcher was a megalomaniac who ignored advice unless it fit in with her plans and views.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Spellweaver said:


> Thatcher was a megalomaniac who ignored advice unless it fit in with her plans and views.


she was a woman, did anyone expect different?


----------



## Colliebarmy

MoggyBaby said:


> A concept that is completely fair!!! It beggers belief that people had a problem with that issue.
> 
> I can fully understand them being p!ssed off though with the costs but this was the fault of their local councils for making the charges so damned ridiculous. However, the irony here is that it was the Labour run councils who instilled the highest charges but everyone prefers to blame the Tories. The Tory councils actually kept their charges extremely reasonable.
> 
> But hey, god forbid any Labour supporter should be able to see how their party likes to rip them off time and again....!!!!


*Why do you think LABOUR councils put such obstacles to a CONSERVATIVE Poll Tax plan?

its quite obvious really*


----------



## MoggyBaby

Colliebarmy said:


> *Why do you think LABOUR councils put such obstacles to a CONSERVATIVE Poll Tax plan?
> 
> its quite obvious really*


Well, it is to SOME of us!!!!!!


----------



## JANICE199

Spellweaver said:


> Thatcher was a megalomaniac who ignored advice unless it fit in with her plans and views.


*And i think many of those that worked with her would admit to this.
I'm fed up with people putting her on a pedestal. Other women have achieved as much if not more than she did.So the best some can come up with was that she was a woman PM.*


----------



## poohdog

JANICE199 said:


> *And i think many of those that worked with her would admit to this.
> I'm fed up with people putting her on a pedestal. Other women have achieved as much if not more than she did.So the best some can come up with was that she was a woman PM.*


Why were there no women in her cabinet? Surely that is suspect.

And why didn't she (And most other politicians) realise how stupid they look when posing for the photo opportunity.During an anti litter campaign there was Maggie picking litter up and putting it in a bin...accompanied by a picture of a minion who seconds before had scattered the said litter in the first place...clean litter mind...no dog muck.

And as for her riding on a tank playing at 'look at me I'm an iron lady'...Well.


----------



## JANICE199

poohdog said:


> Why were there no women in her cabinet? Surely that is suspect.
> 
> And why didn't she (And most other politicians) realise how stupid they look when posing for the photo opportunity.During an anti litter campaign there was Maggie picking litter up and putting it in a bin...accompanied by a picture of a minion who seconds before had scattered the said litter in the first place...clean litter mind...no dog muck.
> 
> And as for her riding on a tank playing at 'look at me I'm an iron lady'...Well.


*My personal opinion as to why she had only one woman in her cabinet is she thought she needed to show men she was better than them. As for the one woman, MT was showing her she was top dog.*


----------



## northnsouth

JANICE199 said:


> *And i think many of those that worked with her would admit to this.
> I'm fed up with people putting her on a pedestal. Other women have achieved as much if not more than she did.So the best some can come up with was that she was a woman PM.*


It is very hard to respect MT for being a Prime Minister and even less as an example of a strong woman... Some of her policies were good many were not. We are reaping the benefits from some. Still paying for others.

People seem to forget she was not voted out, she was got rid of by her own government.


----------



## hutch6

Spellweaver said:


> Well, you said it! But if this is really the first time either of you have read something of such political importance that is affecting your lives today, the fact that you read it first on a pet forum speaks volumes.
> 
> Absolute twaddle. British industry and manufacturing before Thatcher was widely held up as the best example of its kind in the world:
> 
> _By 1978, the British economy was rapidly improving. Inflation was down to single figures and unemployment was falling too. Productivity was rising, including in the nationalised industries. North sea oil revenues were starting to transform the balance of payments, which showed a surplus of £109m in 1977. And in December 1978 Britain recorded a massive trade surplus of £246m
> 
> "The outlook for Britain is better than at any time in the postwar years," was the verdict, not of a Labour party propagandist, but of Chase Manhattan bank's chief European economist, Geoffrey Maynard.
> 
> Bernard Nossiter, a Washington Post journalist, argued in his 1978 book Britain- the Future that Works, that Britain, unlike the US, had created a contented society that had managed to get the balance right between work, leisure and remuneration._
> Neil Clark: Don't believe the myth- Margaret Thatcher ruined egalitarian 1970s Britain
> 
> We could have and did compete with any country in the world before Thacther destroyed it all.
> 
> Thatcher was a megalomaniac who ignored advice unless it fit in with her plans and views.


Coem on Spellweaver, which biased site did you gather that guff from? The British manufacturing industry was on it's knees before Maggs got in on the act. We made poor quality stuff using poor quality tools and equipment and because of all of the strikes by the manufacturing folk (which filtered down to the tool makers and engineering firms - if manufacturing wasn't happening then they didn't need tools as often or repairs) the wages were wayover what was sustainable so the products were sold vastly overpriced and nobody bought them. We lost our motorcycle industry to Asia because our bikes were far more expensive and made out of bread. Our car industry went the same way (but who wanted a beige Cortina anyway or Meastro)
The maufacturing industry was lead by the unions and because they funded the Labour government at the time they had no choice but to be dictated to hence why wages were ridiculously high. Income tax was also around 35p/£.

When the Tory government got voted in they weren't backed by the Unions but by private investors so they didn't have to beg for the workers to go back to work and adhere to union demands that were crippling the whole industry from the inside out. Maggie was just the front person but she also could see what the unions were doing to british industry - billins fo public money had been invested in manufacturing schemes that bled money and cost the general public, well, billions. Income tax was now at 20-22p/£. VAT may have gone up from 8% to 15% but that is a increase of just 7% and realative to the goods you buy. Your income tax actually came down 15% across the board no matter what.

Scargill came in and wasn't one for backing down so the government knew they had a stand-off coming as Scargill was gunning for a fight more than the other guy, Gorm-less. Maggs did what anyone woud do if they saw a crisis coming and so the government started buying in coal from abroad to stockpile it as it was cheaper and actuallly more efficient (see the manufacturing with old kit and making crap again). 
Scargill pushed the workers to walk out and not return until demands were met and they followed him thinking they would grind the country to a halt due to a large portion of coal not being mined. What actually happened was the government wished them a nice year off and used the opportunity to buy in coal from over seas to see how that worked out as like I said it was cheaper and more economical (arrive don time pretty much). It worked out great so we didn't need the mines anymore trying to hold the country to ransom so Scargill shafted the miners (like the pun?) not Maggie.

Research the de-regulation of the banks and see what benefits it brought to this country, sure it brough a load of grief with it but it turned our national debts around ten fold and the UK hadn't had so much money before. Come 12years of Labour and everyone out of control debts with a system so arseabout face with the human rights legislation that tax payer's money again is bleeding away intot he gutter. Oh hang on a minute, why was the Human Rights Bill brought in again? That's right some sour faced barrister was a whizz, an expert, a guru in Human Rights in the courts of law. Who was this amazing barrister? Mrs Blair of course.

Now what have we got? Well we have a Tory party with their dumb puppy Liberal lapdogs but still singing from the New Labour hymn Sheet, even the Labour leader when told to move towards the New Labour referendum, as "that's what the public loved", has said he will only go away from that because that is not healthy for the country and the economy.

She may have seemed evil or callous or a bit of an arse to some or most but I bet you'd take her in power now instead of these pussyfoot oiks that change their minds every 30secs on something.


----------



## porps

still dont know why people assume that just because you dont agree with the tories you must automatically be a labour supporter. I'm sure there are many of us out there who beleive they are both useless.


----------



## cheekyscrip

porps said:


> still dont know why people assume that just because you dont agree with the tories you must automatically be a labour supporter. I'm sure there are many of us out there who beleive they are both useless.


right ..you might be Lib supporter!! and believe in Clegg....

rrr:.....


----------



## porps

cheekyscrip said:


> right ..you might be Lib supporter!! and believe in Clegg....
> 
> rrr:.....


classic cheekyscrip "logic"


----------



## cheekyscrip

porps said:


> classic cheekyscrip "logic"


gotcha!!!

was only joking..........
:devil:

_own up,porps..don't be shy...._

BP anyone?


----------



## Luz

Well I have always been a Thatcher hater. Wouldn't have a party to celebrate her death though; she was in the end an old lady with dementia.

I was 17 when she first came to power, I remember friends being very upset and saying 'She says she will make the rich richer and the poor, poorer.' 
Whether she really said that I don't know but it was to prove prophetic. She brought the country to its knees, sold off all its assets, making her cronies rich in the process and causing devastation for most of the 'working' classes: Many of whom certainly weren't working by the time she fell from grace. 

The 80's were a very bleak time for those of us not blessed by having, family wealth, land and or titles. And yes I do blame Thatcher for that.

I am the only one in my family who would watch 'The Iron Lady', no one else could bear to watch something which would paint her in a human light.


----------



## Tinder

MoggyBaby said:


> A concept that is completely fair!!! It beggers belief that people had a problem with that issue.
> 
> I can fully understand them being p!ssed off though with the costs but this was the fault of their local councils for making the charges so damned ridiculous. However, the irony here is that it was the Labour run councils who instilled the highest charges but everyone prefers to blame the Tories. The Tory councils actually kept their charges extremely reasonable.
> 
> But hey, god forbid any Labour supporter should be able to see how their party likes to rip them off time and again....!!!!


How was it "completely fair" that a very poor person would be paying the same as a millionaire? Please explain that to me.

The poll tax took no account of people's income, ability to pay or any special circumstances that might affect this.

The example bandied around my area at the time was that Lord Derby (who owns a vast estate) would be paying the same as individuals on my council estate. That to my 18year old mind seemed vastly unjust. Lord Derby, I was certain at the time, wasn't living hand to mouth as i was.

Maybe we would've been paying less in the long run than we now pay in council tax but to be honest i'd rather stick to my principles of what I feel is fair and right and just than support something just because it leads to more dosh in my back pocket. The "I'm alright Jack" mentality has never really appealed to me.


----------



## Tinder

porps said:


> still dont know why people assume that just because you dont agree with the tories you must automatically be a labour supporter. I'm sure there are many of us out there who beleive they are both useless.


Brilliant point. I hate how these debates always boil down to Tory verssus Labour. All the points raised here about why Blair and New Labour didn't overturn any of MT's policies if they were so bad? 'Cause he was a Tory-lite w***** that's why!


----------



## hutch6

Luz said:


> The 80's were a very bleak time for those of us not blessed by having, family wealth, land and or titles. And yes I do blame Thatcher for that.


Eh? How do you mean "Not blessed by having family wealth, land and or titles"?

My parents came from the two roughest estates in West Yorkshire, their parents were glamorous career driven folk with one being a sheet metal welder and gambler, the other being a driver and my grandma's doing general production line work in the factories.

My dad started out cleaning out chicken pens, de-beaking and generally feeding them and then after a couple of years he joined BT as a junior engineer. He stayed there until he retired but he attended night school every year to study something to better his chances of promotion. He became a specialist in what he did by the end and was on an average wage.

My mum used to take us to school, go work at a catalogue firm (Grattan - her first ever job), pick us up, wait for dad to get home and then go work at a garage, when the garage closed for the night she then walked to a club to look after their cloakroom.

A right life of priviledge my childhood was, yet we lived through it, didn't blame anyone else when money was short, my parents just went out and took any opportunity they could to better themselves and provide for their children. We even sold veg or bartered for other things with it.


----------



## Colliebarmy

I think this thread has run its course now

MT is dead, she will have a state funeral

end of


----------



## JANICE199

Colliebarmy said:


> I think this thread has run its course now
> 
> MT is dead, she will have a state funeral
> 
> end of


*You don't have to reply to it...People will still be interested until after her funeral.
*


----------



## Spellweaver

hutch6 said:


> Coem on Spellweaver, which biased site did you gather that guff from?


No biased site at all. Follow the refrence link I posted - the quotes are from the blog of Neil Clark, a journalist whose work has appeared in publications of all different political stances.



hutch6 said:


> The British manufacturing industry was on it's knees before Maggs got in on the act. We made poor quality stuff using poor quality tools and equipment and because of all of the strikes by the manufacturing folk (which filtered down to the tool makers and engineering firms - if manufacturing wasn't happening then they didn't need tools as often or repairs) the wages were wayover what was sustainable so the products were sold vastly overpriced and nobody bought them. We lost our motorcycle industry to Asia because our bikes were far more expensive and made out of bread. Our car industry went the same way (but who wanted a beige Cortina anyway or Meastro)
> The maufacturing industry was lead by the unions and because they funded the Labour government at the time they had no choice but to be dictated to hence why wages were ridiculously high. Income tax was also around 35p/£.
> 
> When the Tory government got voted in they weren't backed by the Unions but by private investors so they didn't have to beg for the workers to go back to work and adhere to union demands that were crippling the whole industry from the inside out. Maggie was just the front person but she also could see what the unions were doing to british industry - billins fo public money had been invested in manufacturing schemes that bled money and cost the general public, well, billions. Income tax was now at 20-22p/£. VAT may have gone up from 8% to 15% but that is a increase of just 7% and realative to the goods you buy. Your income tax actually came down 15% across the board no matter what.
> 
> Scargill came in and wasn't one for backing down so the government knew they had a stand-off coming as Scargill was gunning for a fight more than the other guy, Gorm-less. Maggs did what anyone woud do if they saw a crisis coming and so the government started buying in coal from abroad to stockpile it as it was cheaper and actuallly more efficient (see the manufacturing with old kit and making crap again).
> Scargill pushed the workers to walk out and not return until demands were met and they followed him thinking they would grind the country to a halt due to a large portion of coal not being mined. What actually happened was the government wished them a nice year off and used the opportunity to buy in coal from over seas to see how that worked out as like I said it was cheaper and more economical (arrive don time pretty much). It worked out great so we didn't need the mines anymore trying to hold the country to ransom so Scargill shafted the miners (like the pun?) not Maggie.
> 
> Research the de-regulation of the banks and see what benefits it brought to this country, sure it brough a load of grief with it but it turned our national debts around ten fold and the UK hadn't had so much money before. Come 12years of Labour and everyone out of control debts with a system so arseabout face with the human rights legislation that tax payer's money again is bleeding away intot he gutter. Oh hang on a minute, why was the Human Rights Bill brought in again? That's right some sour faced barrister was a whizz, an expert, a guru in Human Rights in the courts of law. Who was this amazing barrister? Mrs Blair of course.
> 
> Now what have we got? Well we have a Tory party with their dumb puppy Liberal lapdogs but still singing from the New Labour hymn Sheet, even the Labour leader when told to move towards the New Labour referendum, as "that's what the public loved", has said he will only go away from that because that is not healthy for the country and the economy.
> 
> She may have seemed evil or callous or a bit of an arse to some or most but I bet you'd take her in power now instead of these pussyfoot oiks that change their minds every 30secs on something.


I've posted references to show that in 1978 Inflation was down to single figures, unemployment was falling, poductivity was rising, the balance of payments showed a surplus of £109m in 1977, and there was a trade surplus of £246m.

I notice you don't supply any references at all to support your claims. Without references your "facts" are just so much more rhetoric - the kind of "facts" spewed forth by the the sensationalist media. It's easy for anyone to type anything - harder to prove it by backing it up with references.

As for taking Thatcher in power now - either you have not read any of my posts properly or you are joking. There is no way I could ever endorse that. No matter how bad the Ant and Dec team we have now (and they are dire!) she was worse.


----------



## rocco33

JANICE199 said:


> *And i think many of those that worked with her would admit to this.
> I'm fed up with people putting her on a pedestal. Other women have achieved as much if not more than she did.So the best some can come up with was that she was a woman PM.*


I haven't heard anyone on here put her on a pedestal!

She did some good things and some bad and her policies were a catalyst for the greed we have today (although I don't think that was her intention - she was too single minded and naïve to realise). But the one thing she wanted more than anything is for people to take responsibility for themselves. From reading some of the comments on here it is clear that people are either not capable or do not want to do so. It's easier to blame someone else, so they hold her responsible for all the difficulties that befall them.


----------



## Spellweaver

Colliebarmy said:


> I think this thread has run its course now
> 
> MT is dead, she will have a state funeral
> 
> end of


You don't get to declare a thread closed just because you have no reply to any of the counter arguments people are putting to you.

And Thatcher isn't having a state funeral - just a very expensive funeral paid for by us mugs - sorry, taxpayers. We've already paid her cronies nearly 4K each to gather together to eulogise her and now they're sticking us with this. The 10 million for the funeral (plus however much the MPs total payments came to) would have been much better spent on helping the poor or the disabled or the elderly.


----------



## Magnus

Anyone who says (and actually believes) this:-

*British industry and manufacturing before Thatcher was widely held up as the best example of its kind in the world*

Should be made to drive a Morris Marina (all the way to the Funny Farm)


----------



## Magnus

Spellweaver said:


> You don't get to declare a thread closed just because you have no reply to any of the counter arguments people are putting to you.
> 
> And Thatcher isn't having a state funeral - just a very expensive funeral paid for by us mugs - sorry, taxpayers. We've already paid her cronies nearly 4K each to gather together to eulogise her and now they're sticking us with this. The 10 million for the funeral (plus however much the MPs total payments came to) would have been much better spent on helping the poor or the disabled or the elderly.


Labour spent £80 million refurbishing the offices of the National Audit Office - an organisation meant to keep an eye on public spending!!

They spent £50 million on promoting ballet.

Obviously countless billions were wasted on an illegal war (not to mention the lives lost) and £12.7 billion on an NHS computer system that didn't work. That would have paid the wages off 60,000 nurses for ten years!

£10 million to bury the longest serving PM for 150 years - it's a snip. They'll save that pretty quickly taking the Mobility cars off people with f*ck all wrong with them.

(Don't mention the Gold reserves sell off by Gordon "Prudence" Brown either!)


----------



## Spellweaver

Magnus said:


> Anyone who says (and actually believes) this:-
> 
> *British industry and manufacturing before Thatcher was widely held up as the best example of its kind in the world*
> 
> Should be made to drive a Morris Marina (all the way to the Funny Farm)


Ah yes, reasoned argument as usual


----------



## Spellweaver

Magnus said:


> Labour spent £80 million refurbishing the offices of the National Audit Office - an organisation meant to keep an eye on public spending!!
> 
> They spent £50 million on promoting ballet.
> 
> Obviously countless billions were wasted on an illegal war (not to mention the lives lost) and £12.7 billion on an NHS computer system that didn't work. That would have paid the wages off 60,000 nurses for ten years!
> 
> £10 million to bury the longest serving PM for 150 years - it's a snip. They'll save that pretty quickly taking the Mobility cars off people with f*ck all wrong with them.
> 
> (Don't mention the Gold reserves sell off by Gordon "Prudence" Brown either!)


If you are reduced to justifying the atrocities of one political party by speaking about the atrocities of another, your argument is lost before you start. It's like trying to justify smoking in public places because car exhausts are carcinogenic. Two wrongs don't make a right.

(Friendly hint to prevent you making yourself look silly - it's already been said on here that just because someone is against tory policies it does not mean they agree with labour policies  )


----------



## chichi

I would much rather this Country spend 10 million pounds on a worthy funeral for a former PM who is known and respected by millions worldwide and is a massive part of British political history...than some of the other trivial tosh that millions are wasted on.

Lets also not forget that much if that money will be spent on security to keep the yobs and scum in order...those that have no sense of decency and will use a funeral as their ideal place to make mugs of themselves in order to make a (worthless) point. 

Sometimes I am ashamed to be British when I see/hear what some believe is acceptable.


----------



## Spellweaver

chichi said:


> I would much rather this Country spend 10 million pounds on a worthy funeral for a former PM who is known and respected by millions worldwide and is a massive part of British political history...than some of the other trivial tosh that millions are wasted on.
> 
> Lets also not forget that much if that money will be spent on security to keep the yobs and scum in order...those that have no sense of decency and will use a funeral as their ideal place to make mugs of themselves in order to make a (worthless) point.
> 
> Sometimes I am ashamed to be British when I see/hear what some believe is acceptable.


But if she had a smaller private funeral paid for by her family, then none of the above expense would be necesary. Having a huge funeral paid for by the taxpayers at a time when the government is enforcing draconian cuts will not only attract the mobs, it will also make them feel their celebrations are justified.

Do you really think that in times of such austerity, spending 10million on a funeral for a mere prime minister is justified?


----------



## chichi

Spellweaver said:


> But if she had a smaller private funeral paid for by her family, then none of the above expense would be necesary. Having a huge funeral paid for by the taxpayers at a time when the government is enforcing draconian cuts will not only attract the mobs, it will also make them feel their celebrations are justified.
> 
> Do you really think that in times of such austerity, spending 10million on a funeral for a mere prime minister is justified?


How can a former PM who is such a big part of British history have a quiet little funeral somewhere in the suburbs? That is just ridiculous. The yobs would still be there to show themselves up...wherever the funeral is to be held. We have seen on here the venom and vileness that some people will resort to....

10 million...though a lot of money...is a drop in the ocean to the money that has been wasted/used by Government and let us not forget why so much....policing....because of expected behaviour from some lowlife Brits *smh*


----------



## JANICE199

rocco33 said:


> I haven't heard anyone on here put her on a pedestal!
> 
> She did some good things and some bad and her policies were a catalyst for the greed we have today (although I don't think that was her intention - she was too single minded and naïve to realise). But the one thing she wanted more than anything is for people to take responsibility for themselves. From reading some of the comments on here it is clear that people are either not capable or do not want to do so. It's easier to blame someone else, so they hold her responsible for all the difficulties that befall them.


*With respect, i didn't say on here. I listen to the radio and watch the tv. And yes where debates about MT have taken place. Even some youngsters believe all the hype they are being fed.
An example was last nights question time. I find it sad, that young women can only think of MT as a woman to look up to.*


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect, i didn't say on here. I listen to the radio and watch the tv. And yes where debates about MT have taken place. Even some youngsters believe all the hype they are being fed.
> An example was last nights question time. I find it sad, that young women can only think of MT as a woman to look up to.*


Well sure as heck nobody will look up to any male PMs in power in recent years....they dont possess a pair of testicles between the bunch of spineless turds.....

They could do a lot worse than looking up to MT.....who else in politics should women look up to in your opinion?


----------



## Spellweaver

chichi said:


> How can a former PM who is such a big part of British history have a quiet little funeral somewhere in the suburbs?


Just like every other prime minister who has played a big part in British history has had a private funeral. Other prime ministers have served the country well and have had popular policies and unpiopular policies . Her only claim to uniqueness was the hatred of her that her policies and attitude engendered in so many. And that is no reason to spend 10 milion on her funeral and, in doing so, further justify the hatred felt.



chichi said:


> . We have seen on here the venom and vileness that some people will resort to....


I agree - both against Thatcher _and_ against the miners, steelworkers, dockworkers, union members (and in Magnus' case the disabled who, in his wisdom, he has judged as having "F--- all wrong with them) etc etc. But I guess that in some eyes they don't count because they're just ordinary people?


----------



## JANICE199

chichi said:


> Well sure as heck nobody will look up to any male PMs in power in recent years....they dont possess a pair of testicles between the bunch of spineless turds.....
> 
> They could do a lot worse than looking up to MT.....who else in politics should women look up to in your opinion?


*lol You have just proven my point. Why does it have to be anyone in politics? *


----------



## chichi

Spellweaver said:


> Just like every other prime minister who has played a big part in British history has had a private funeral. Other prime ministers have served the country well and have had popular policies and unpiopular policies . Her only claim to uniqueness was the hatred of her that her policies and attitude engendered in so many. And that is no reason to spend 10 milion on her funeral and, in doing so, further justify the hatred felt.
> 
> I agree - both against Thatcher _and_ against the miners, steelworkers, dockworkers, union members (and in Magnus' case the disabled who, in his wisdom, he has judged as having "F--- all wrong with them) etc etc. But I guess that in some eyes they count because they're just ordinary people?


We will have to agree to disagree because I dont think MT was just any old PM. I believe mistakes were made and I sympathise with those connected to the miners...etc....that suffered at thd time MT was PM but I dont think that particular problem was down solely to MT.....jmho

With regards what you have accused another member of saying re disability claimants...I can honestly say Ive seen nothing of the sort but admit Ive probably missed several pages....with it being a long thread. Will be disappointed if what you have said is true though.


----------



## Spellweaver

chichi said:


> With regards what you have accused another member of saying re disability claimants...I can honestly say Ive seen nothing of the sort but admit Ive probably missed several pages....with it being a long thread. Will be disappointed if what you have said is true though.


Here you go:



Magnus said:


> £10 million to bury the longest serving PM for 150 years - it's a snip. They'll save that pretty quickly taking the Mobility cars off people with f*ck all wrong with them.


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *lol You have just proven my point. Why does it have to be anyone in politics? *


As Question Time is a political debate programme...I assume that if one of the young women said they looked up to Madonna or Katie Price....they may havd been viewed as missing the point....the point being they were discussing politics....no???

If someone were to ask a contestant on The Voice...who they looked up to...they would likely state somebody who was a famous Vocalist....

Its fairly obvious to me why MT would be brought up on QT...she is the only female in politics to have ever really been taken seriously in this Counytry....imho.

Who do you think the young women of today should be looking up to Janice?


----------



## JAChihuahua

chichi said:


> Well sure as heck nobody will look up to any male PMs in power in recent years....they dont possess a pair of testicles between the bunch of spineless turds.....
> 
> They could do a lot worse than looking up to MT.....who else in politics should women look up to in your opinion?


Jmho but one of the most admirable women in politics was Barbara Castle, she too was a ballbreaker. I'm not saying I'd always agree with her political stance, but she engendered respect even from the opposition, and more importantly from the public.


----------



## hutch6

Spellweaver said:


> No biased site at all. Follow the refrence link I posted - the quotes are from the blog of Neil Clark, a journalist whose work has appeared in publications of all different political stances.
> 
> I've posted references to show that in 1978 Inflation was down to single figures, unemployment was falling, poductivity was rising, the balance of payments showed a surplus of £109m in 1977, and there was a trade surplus of £246m.
> 
> I notice you don't supply any references at all to support your claims. Without references your "facts" are just so much more rhetoric - the kind of "facts" spewed forth by the the sensationalist media. It's easy for anyone to type anything - harder to prove it by backing it up with references.
> 
> As for taking Thatcher in power now - either you have not read any of my posts properly or you are joking. There is no way I could ever endorse that. No matter how bad the Ant and Dec team we have now (and they are dire!) she was worse.


Here you go. HArd facts drawn from the national databases as aposed to a blog.

Check out the manufacturing graph. 1979 - 1990 a drop of 2.44%. UNder New LAbour 1990 - 2010 - a drop of 5.5% over twice as much because Blair and Brown wanted to make the UK the European centre for e-commerce.

Public spending was higher than Old Labour and New Labour depsite New Labour bringing in countless council officials to run one role.

Equal pay for women started it's rise.

House prices weren't ridiculous as they were under the labour "free-for all mortgages" - the main cause of this recession we are in.

Less people living in poverty.

How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts | Politics | guardian.co.uk


----------



## chichi

Spellweaver said:


> Here you go:


I had completely missed that post *smh*

Magnus has made so many valid points on this thread....then goes and spoils himself with such ignorance....

Perhaps Magnus should take a look at the changes being made to DLA (now PIP) and the awful and devastating effect it will have on GENUINE disabled people in the UK.

NOTE TO MAGNUS.....

Just cos ATOS say somebody isnt entitled to PIP (was DLA)...doesnt mean F--- all is wrong with said disabled person....FAR FROM IT


----------



## JANICE199

chichi said:


> As Question Time is a political debate programme...I assume that if one of the young women said they looked up to Madonna or Katie Price....they may havd been viewed as missing the point....the point being they were discussing politics....no???
> 
> If someone were to ask a contestant on The Voice...who they looked up to...they would likely state somebody who was a famous Vocalist....
> 
> Its fairly obvious to me why MT would be brought up on QT...she is the only female in politics to have ever really been taken seriously in this Counytry....imho.
> 
> Who do you think the young women of today should be looking up to Janice?


*I'll have to disagree there, Mo Mowlam was taken serious as was Barbara Castle.
As to who i think young women should look up to, surely that is for them to decide. *


----------



## chichi

JAChihuahua said:


> Jmho but one of the most admirable women in politics was Barbara Castle, she too was a ballbreaker. I'm not saying I'd always agree with her political stance, but she engendered respect even from the opposition, and more importantly from the public.


I dont think she was really taken very seriously tbh. That is where MT made her mark....the men in politics HAD to take her seriously. She was what was needed at that time but. ....she made some mistakes...like all PMs.


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *I'll have to disagree there, Mo Mowlam was taken serious as was Barbara Castle.
> As to who i think young women should look up to, surely that is for them to decide. *


They did decide Janice. They chose MT....you just didnt like the choice. I can see that their choices were very limited when looking at female politicians to look up to.


----------



## suewhite

If I had the energy I would green rep everyone on this thread as it has been a good debate from both sides without getting closed :thumbsup:


----------



## JAChihuahua

chichi said:


> I dont think she was really taken very seriously tbh. That is where MT made her mark....the men in politics HAD to take her seriously. She was what was needed at that time but. ....she made some mistakes...like all PMs.


Lol, no not seriously at all....she was only one of the most influential politicians to campaign and more importantly set the precedent for equal pay for women!


----------



## JANICE199

chichi said:


> I dont think she was really taken very seriously tbh. That is where MT made her mark....the men in politics HAD to take her seriously. She was what was needed at that time but. ....she made some mistakes...like all PMs.


*" Tipped as a future Prime Minister before Margaret Thatcher came to prominence, Barbara Castle is arguably the most prominent women politician in the history of the Labour party."

BBC News - How Barbara Castle broke the glass ceiling of politics

Might be worth a read.*


----------



## rocco33

Some sense at last!

Love Whatcha Got: The Thatcher Tears


----------



## Spellweaver

hutch6 said:


> Here you go. HArd facts drawn from the national databases as aposed to a blog.
> 
> Check out the manufacturing graph. 1979 - 1990 a drop of 2.44%. UNder New LAbour 1990 - 2010 - a drop of 5.5% over twice as much because Blair and Brown wanted to make the UK the European centre for e-commerce.
> 
> Public spending was higher than Old Labour and New Labour depsite New Labour bringing in countless council officials to run one role.
> 
> Equal pay for women started it's rise.
> 
> House prices weren't ridiculous as they were under the labour "free-for all mortgages" - the main cause of this recession we are in.
> 
> Less people living in poverty.
> 
> How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts | Politics | guardian.co.uk


None of this shows anything at all about what I was saying about the state of the country BEFORE Thatcher took over. But it is certainly an interesting indictment on her time in power:

Unemployment hit a record high

Steep decline in manufacturing

Huge fall in public spending

Increase in the pay gap between men and women

Interest rates at record highs

Union memberships at an all time low

Strikes at an all time high - over twice as many in 1984 as in the so-called winter of discontent

Poverty (ie people below the poverty line) risen from 10% to 22%  *22% of the country under the poverty line - think I've answered the question why so many hate Thatcher and her policies *

Inequality rising

Your graphs did not prove a thing you meant them to, but they sure as hell have proved a lot of my points! Thank you for posting this link


----------



## MCWillow

Spellweaver said:


> *Just like every other prime minister who has played a big part in British history has had a private funeral*. Other prime ministers have served the country well and have had popular policies and unpiopular policies . Her only claim to uniqueness was the hatred of her that her policies and attitude engendered in so many. And that is no reason to spend 10 milion on her funeral and, in doing so, further justify the hatred felt.
> 
> I agree - both against Thatcher _and_ against the miners, steelworkers, dockworkers, union members (and in Magnus' case the disabled who, in his wisdom, he has judged as having "F--- all wrong with them) etc etc. But I guess that in some eyes they don't count because they're just ordinary people?


Thats not true actually.

William Gladstone and Winston Chruchill both had full state funerals.
Banjamin Disraeli was offered a full state funeral but refused (via his will).

Margaret Thatcher is having a ceremonial funeral as she didn't want a full state funeral either.


----------



## JANICE199

MCWillow said:


> Thats not true actually.
> 
> William Gladstone and Winston Chruchill both had full state funerals.
> Banjamin Disraeli was offered a full state funeral but refused (via his will).
> 
> Margaret Thatcher is having a ceremonial funeral as she didn't want a full state funeral either.


*Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought it was only serving PMs that got state funerals.*


----------



## Meezey

Old Maggie was better than the spineless Prats that are in power now, and better than the previous Prats that were in Power....

Don't care which party is in power, as long as they do something to sort the country out, and not be such spineless wishy washy gutless arses...

I'd have Maggie over anyone we've had in after her


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *" Tipped as a future Prime Minister before Margaret Thatcher came to prominence, Barbara Castle is arguably the most prominent women politician in the history of the Labour party."
> 
> BBC News - How Barbara Castle broke the glass ceiling of politics
> 
> Might be worth a read.*


Janice......is it just coincidence that the two names you dragged up both stood for Labour  somewhat predictable if you dont mind me saying :sneaky2:


----------



## chichi

JAChihuahua said:


> Lol, no not seriously at all....she was only one of the most influential politicians to campaign and more importantly set the precedent for equal pay for women!


So obviously became PM ... became a name known all over the world ... just like MT ... errrrrrm no

And please....dont come the old "she is known all over the world for the hate people have for her" chestnut.....cos that wont wash Im afraid:bored:


----------



## JANICE199

chichi said:


> Janice......is it just coincidence that the two names you dragged up both stood for Labour  somewhat predictable if you dont mind me saying :sneaky2:


*lol I can see where people might think i'm labour, but those that have been here long enough to know me ( that have read my posts ) will know i'm not anything, never have been. But i will confess, that during the last election i was leaning towards Clegg.*


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *" Tipped as a future Prime Minister before Margaret Thatcher came to prominence, Barbara Castle is arguably the most prominent women politician in the history of the Labour party."
> 
> BBC News - How Barbara Castle broke the glass ceiling of politics
> 
> Might be worth a read.*


Thanks Janice....was interesting reading and I agree....from what was said in that piece...she does sound a remarkable lady of her time...certainly would give the Labour clowns of today a sort out by the sounds of it


----------



## MCWillow

JANICE199 said:


> *Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought it was only serving PMs that got state funerals.*


Winston Churchill died in 1965, when Harold Wilson was Prime Minister


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *lol I can see where people might think i'm labour, but those that have been here long enough to know me ( that have read my posts ) will know i'm not anything, never have been. But i will confess, that during the last election i was leaning towards Clegg.*


Janice I always read and often take part in your threads re political issues. Never once has it ever entered my head that you are anything other than a massive Labour supporter. Youre not in denial are you

Either way...I always enjoy a good old debate with you


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

JANICE199 said:


> *Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought it was only serving PMs that got state funerals.*


she was a PM during a war, thus a war minister, thus due to our constitution entitled to a state as was Churchill and as will Blair x


----------



## suewhite

JANICE199 said:


> *lol I can see where people might think i'm labour, but those that have been here long enough to know me ( that have read my posts ) will know i'm not anything, never have been. But i will confess, that during the last election i was leaning towards Clegg.*


In my time here I've seen you give them all a bashing Jan


----------



## poohdog

What constitution is that then?...Where can I read it!


----------



## MCWillow

The honour of a state funeral is usually reserved for the sovereign as head of state. Spouses and widows of monarchs usually receive a ceremonial funeral, which differs only in the fact that the gun carriage bearing the coffin is drawn by horses, as opposed to sailors, as well as an action of Parliament not being required.

However, a few historical civilians of profound achievement, exceptional military leaders, and notable politicians have also been honoured with a full state funeral.

Sir Philip Sidney (1586)
Admiral Robert Blake (1657)
Sir Isaac Newton (1727)[4]
The Viscount Nelson (1806)
The Duke of Wellington (1852)
The Viscount Palmerston (1865)
Lord Napier of Magdala (1890)
The Rt Hon William Gladstone (1898)
The Earl Roberts of Kandahar (1914)
The Earl Haig (1928)
The Lord Carson (1935)
The Rt Hon Sir Winston Churchill (1965)

It doesn't say (that I have found, anyway) that you are entitled to a state funeral if you were PM during wartime.


----------



## chichi

suewhite said:


> In my time here I've seen you give them all a bashing Jan


Arrrrrrrrh well I am a PF toddler compared to some of you round here.....so give it time.....I may see a whole other Janice lol


----------



## JANICE199

chichi said:


> Janice I always read and often take part in your threads re political issues. Never once has it ever entered my head that you are anything other than a massive Labour supporter. Youre not in denial are you
> 
> Either way...I always enjoy a good old debate with you


*lol Nope i'm definitely not in denial. I look at all sides and base my opinions on what i see.
If i believed that strongly about any of them i would vote, but i don't, well never have yet. But that's another topic.*


----------



## chichi

JANICE199 said:


> *lol Nope i'm definitely not in denial. I look at all sides and base my opinions on what i see.
> If i believed that strongly about any of them i would vote, but i don't, well never have yet. But that's another topic.*


I think we have all suffered when trying to vote for the "best" party in recent years! I think now its a case of choosing who may do the LEAST damage....because as far as I can see....they are all losers....sadly


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods

cant find it, found it the other day when googling it, was a complicated search (with roots followed from site to site) sorry x and I have had a horrid day fencing my horses back in in the rain so am knackered and thus have a bad case of the cba's x


----------



## JANICE199

MCWillow said:


> The honour of a state funeral is usually reserved for the sovereign as head of state. Spouses and widows of monarchs usually receive a ceremonial funeral, which differs only in the fact that the gun carriage bearing the coffin is drawn by horses, as opposed to sailors, as well as an action of Parliament not being required.
> 
> However, a few historical civilians of profound achievement, exceptional military leaders, and notable politicians have also been honoured with a full state funeral.
> 
> Sir Philip Sidney (1586)
> Admiral Robert Blake (1657)
> Sir Isaac Newton (1727)[4]
> The Viscount Nelson (1806)
> The Duke of Wellington (1852)
> The Viscount Palmerston (1865)
> Lord Napier of Magdala (1890)
> The Rt Hon William Gladstone (1898)
> The Earl Roberts of Kandahar (1914)
> The Earl Haig (1928)
> The Lord Carson (1935)
> The Rt Hon Sir Winston Churchill (1965)
> 
> It doesn't say (that I have found, anyway) that you are entitled to a state funeral if you were PM during wartime.


*Thank you for clearing that up. The subject was being debated on the radio the other day and someone that had phoned in, mentioned about the state funeral being only for PMs during wartime..Perhaps that was their opinion.*


----------



## Goblin

Never heard of Barbara Castle. Can appreciate her.. The Cabinet Papers | Industrial unrest



> By April 1968, relations between the Labour Party and the unions were strained. The Secretary for Employment and Productivity, Barbara Castle, wanted unions to move away from the defence of sectional interests and towards corporate responsibility for national economic and social development. She developed her ideas in the 1969 White Paper 'In place of strife'.


She tried to implement a bill but..



> In April 1970, Castle presented a watered down Industrial Relations Bill to parliament, but Labour was defeated in a general election before the second reading


So she was defeated by her own party who didn't want to stand up to the unions. MT did stand up.

Seems as though she wasn't popular either for the Beeching cuts, closing thousands of miles of rail network. The Beeching report stated..


> The industry must be of a size and pattern suited to modern conditions and prospects. In particular, the railway system must be remodelled to meet current needs, and the modernisation plan must be adapted to this shape.


My.. doesn't the gist of that sound familiar. We have someone closing things which aren't profitable. We have someone who calls for restricting the unions and this from Labour and before MT. However she failed.



JANICE199 said:


> *I'll have to disagree there, Mo Mowlam was taken serious as was Barbara Castle.
> As to who i think young women should look up to, surely that is for them to decide. *


Mo Mowlam who became an MP after another party had had a woman prime minister. After the powers that be had no choice but to accept women and women in parliament. No party could now claim to represent the people without actually showing women taking seats.

Not lessening the impact Mo Mowlam had or any of the women entering politics and representing their constituents. It was made far easier by the fact MT had brought the walls against women crashing down. Others may have breached those walls on occasion, none before had torn them down.

You also have to consider visibility, again not lessening the impact Mo Molam had, she wasn't Prime Minister. As Prime Minister MT was simply more visible and more people will at least know her name if nothing else.


----------



## JAChihuahua

chichi said:


> So obviously became PM ... became a name known all over the world ... just like MT ... errrrrrm no
> 
> And please....dont come the old "she is known all over the world for the hate people have for her" chestnut.....cos that wont wash Im afraid:bored:





chichi said:


> Thanks Janice....was interesting reading and I agree....from what was said in that piece...she does sound a remarkable lady of her time...certainly would give the Labour clowns of today a sort out by the sounds of it


Erm , you do realise this is the same person don't you? Very different replies for the same woman.

Barbara castle is very well known. In fact she was studied as part of my son's project on equality which included racism, discrimination and tolerance....he is 9. Just because you have not encountered her before, doesn't make her any less well known or influential.

And whilst Maggie may be only known by their contempt in some circles, i do understand she is held in reverence in others. I was chatting to a couple of American tourists only yesterday who have Maggie placed firmly on a pedestal for her stance on communism and the cold war.

Unlike some i do respect others views even if i vehemently disagree with them.


----------



## 1290423

on a serious not!
I vote,
I always have voted!
And I always shall vote!
whom I vote for is my business
BUT whom I am voting for this time is based on Europe, I for one do not agree that we in the UK should be governed by the EU and just hope that others agree and use their vote wiselY


----------



## chichi

JAChihuahua said:


> Erm , you do realise this is the same person don't you? Very different replies for the same woman.
> 
> Barbara castle is very well known. In fact she was studied as part of my son's project on equality which included racism, discrimination and tolerance....he is 9. Just because you have not encountered her before, doesn't make her any less well known or influential.
> 
> And whilst Maggie may be only known by their contempt in some circles, i do understand she is held in reverence in others. I was chatting to a couple of American tourists only yesterday who have Maggie placed firmly on a pedestal for her stance on communism and the cold war.
> 
> Unlike some i do respect others views even if i vehemently disagree with them.


Of course I realise its the same person

I was being polite to Janice...who was good enough to post a link for me to read and I genuinely did not know a couple of points that were contained in that link.

Comparing the lady to the later LABOUR reps in parliament....she sounds amazing. Though still doesnt come anywhere near MT for making a statement in British politics. Thats my opinion.


----------



## Luz

hutch6 said:


> Eh? How do you mean "Not blessed by having family wealth, land and or titles"?
> 
> My parents came from the two roughest estates in West Yorkshire, their parents were glamorous career driven folk with one being a sheet metal welder and gambler, the other being a driver and my grandma's doing general production line work in the factories.
> 
> My dad started out cleaning out chicken pens, de-beaking and generally feeding them and then after a couple of years he joined BT as a junior engineer. He stayed there until he retired but he attended night school every year to study something to better his chances of promotion. He became a specialist in what he did by the end and was on an average wage.
> 
> My mum used to take us to school, go work at a catalogue firm (Grattan - her first ever job), pick us up, wait for dad to get home and then go work at a garage, when the garage closed for the night she then walked to a club to look after their cloakroom.
> 
> A right life of priviledge my childhood was, yet we lived through it, didn't blame anyone else when money was short, my parents just went out and took any opportunity they could to better themselves and provide for their children. We even sold veg or bartered for other things with it.


So it doesn't exactly sound like the life of Riley? Whereas those with plenty of money managed to line their pockets by buying shares in all the national industries that were sold off.
We lived through it too and worked, but it was bloody bleak.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Luz said:


> So it doesn't exactly sound like the life of Riley? Whereas those with plenty of money managed to line their pockets by buying shares in all the national industries that were sold off.
> We lived through it too and worked, but it was bloody bleak.


a vast number of shares were bought by pension funds, many of which were operated for the benefit of workers


----------



## nutty

Spellweaver said:


> Friendly hint to prevent you making yourself look silly - it's already been said on here that just because someone is against tory policies it does not mean they agree with labour policies  )


No of course not...it otherwise means that there are a bunch of people who dont want to make any use of their vote, but still want to exercise the right to blame politicians for all their woes


----------



## Bisbow

nutty said:


> No of course not...it otherwise means that there are a bunch of people who dont want to make any use of their vote, but still want to exercise the right to blame politicians for all their woes


So true.

I vote because I feel if I don't then I have no right to complain about the goverment or council when I do't agree with then and thier policies.


----------



## Tinder

nutty said:


> No of course not...it otherwise means that *there are a bunch of people *who dont want to make any use of their vote, but still want to exercise the right to blame politicians for all their woes


A bunch of people where? As fas as i'm aware only one person on this thread has said they don't vote. I do and always have.


----------



## MCWillow

A bunch of people in the entire country I imagine. Unless you think the only person in the country that doesn't vote is the one that has said so on here?


----------



## JANICE199

nutty said:


> No of course not...it otherwise means that there are a bunch of people who dont want to make any use of their vote, but still want to exercise the right to blame politicians for all their woes


*I did say in a previous post that me, or anyone else choosing not to vote was a matter for another thread.
That topic has been done and i've said what i think about the matter. As for wanting to blame politicians for all my/ our woes, that doesn't even come into it.
Some people forget, politicians are there to REPRESENT the people. But we all know they don't.*


----------



## 1290423

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> she was a PM during a war, thus a war minister, thus due to our constitution entitled to a state as was Churchill and as will Blair x


Yep! the falklands

she earned her stripes


----------



## Spellweaver

nutty said:


> No of course not...it otherwise means that there are a bunch of people who dont want to make any use of their vote, but still want to exercise the right to blame politicians for all their woes


If you vote you are making use of your vote and as such have the right to talk about anything the politicians do. I have *always* voted since I was 18 (40 years ago now!) - my right to vote is something I feel extremely strongly about and am grateful for all the men and women who worked and died so that the country I live in allows me a free vote. You can probably find many posts on here by me around the last election time exhorting people to vote.

It doesn't mean I have to agree with the policies of the tories or the new tories - sorry, new labour - though ... and it _definitely_ means that anyone on a pet forum who doesn't know me from Adam and tries to tell me that my vote has been wasted will get extremely short shrift!


----------



## 1290423

nn


JANICE199 said:


> *I did say in a previous post that me, or anyone else choosing not to vote was a matter for another thread.
> That topic has been done and i've said what i think about the matter. As for wanting to blame politicians for all my/ our woes, that doesn't even come into it.
> Some people forget, politicians are there to REPRESENT the people. But we all know they don't.*


You gonna vote for me then Jan


----------



## JAChihuahua

JANICE199 said:


> *I did say in a previous post that me, or anyone else choosing not to vote was a matter for another thread.
> That topic has been done and i've said what i think about the matter. As for wanting to blame politicians for all my/ our woes, that doesn't even come into it.
> Some people forget, politicians are there to REPRESENT the people. But we all know they don't.*


I have always voted as is my right, however with that right comes the right not to vote too.

I personally have no issue with those who CHOOSE not to vote, but i will never understand those to lazy to vote. Not voting because you cannot find a candidate or party which fits with your beliefs is imo perfectly acceptable, and doesn't mean you have no right to express displeasure at the current govt.

Of course, those who do attend also have another option to display their lack of confidence in the candidates....they can spoil their ballot. Spoilt ballots are counted and as most are spoilt not by mistake but on purpose it's a very good way to tell the politicians that you don't want any of those on offer.

Like the other poster i will not say who i vote for, that's my business alone (not even my hubby knows for sure), but i will admit to spoiling my ballot for the first time ever in the last local elections as i had no faith in any of the candidates or their parties.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> nn
> 
> You gonna vote for me then Jan


I would have done...but British Citizens who live in gibraltar..evenn if with London issued passport! ...have no vote!!!
sadly thoughbritish gov has right ot decide about us...
France gave rights to vote to what is left of their "colonies" ..like Aruba (if rememeber rightly)

I wish , rulyy wish that if British gov decides about us..we have right to ecide about that gov?

It is illegal to deprive anyone of their vote!


----------



## Spellweaver

DT said:


> nn
> 
> You gonna vote for me then Jan


What's your manifesto then DT? You'd certainly stir 'em up in the House of Commons, that's for sure!


----------



## 1290423

Spellweaver said:


> What's your manifesto then DT? You'd certainly stir 'em up in the House of Commons, that's for sure!


I.m keeping it under wraps Val
If the big boys see it the will steeeelll it from me and claim it for their own


----------



## JAChihuahua

100 pages debate....and it's still open! That's democracy!


----------



## JANICE199

*As i have the right to vote i also have the right not to.. I've never been so 2 faced as to hide this fact.
I will say this though, if anyone like myself thought.thinks that ukip is the answer, they had better think again. I would rather ( if i had to ) vote BNP than hide behind ukip.
So once again, if those of you that value your vote, as you say i should, imho you have only 2 choices. Labour or Tory. That's how i see it. No white wash ect. But again, imo. The race is ONLY between these 2.*


----------



## 1290423

JANICE199 said:


> *As i have the right to vote i also have the right not to.. I've never been so 2 faced as to hide this fact.
> I will say this though, if anyone like myself thought.thinks that ukip is the answer, they had better think again. I would rather ( if i had to ) vote BNP than hide behind ukip.
> So once again, if those of you that value your vote, as you say i should, imho you have only 2 choices. Labour or Tory. That's how i see it. No white wash ect. But again, imo. The race is ONLY between these 2.*


you really are so full of crap its laffable!


----------



## bordie

DT said:


> you really are so full of crap its laffable!


:thumbup::thumbup::yesnod::yesnod:


----------



## JANICE199

bordie said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::yesnod::yesnod:


*here comes the cavalry.:thumbdown: Want the thread closed?:Yawn:*


----------



## Tinder

MCWillow said:


> A bunch of people in the entire country I imagine. Unless you think the only person in the country that doesn't vote is the one that has said so on here?


Yes, yes McWillow... that must obviously be what i think...


----------



## MCWillow

Tinder said:


> Yes, yes McWillow... that must obviously be what i think...


Wasn't obvious to me, hence the punctuation showing it was a question 

Seems a bit blinkered to me....

Thanks for answering though


----------



## poohdog

1000 posts on the death of our beloved leader...The North Koreans would be proud...


----------



## Spellweaver

JANICE199 said:


> *As i have the right to vote i also have the right not to.. I've never been so 2 faced as to hide this fact.
> I will say this though, if anyone like myself thought.thinks that ukip is the answer, they had better think again. I would rather ( if i had to ) vote BNP than hide behind ukip.
> So once again, if those of you that value your vote, as you say i should, imho you have only 2 choices. Labour or Tory. That's how i see it. No white wash ect. But again, imo. The race is ONLY between these 2.*


You are right Jan - and that's the trouble with our so-called democracy. The way our election system is set up, unless you vote for either of the two main parties then all your vote does is dilute the numbers of one of them and we end up with the ridiculous situation we have now - a coalition decimating the country without a mandate. 

The whole system is a mockery - we should scrap it and bring in a proportional representation system. We'd probably still end up with a coalition - but at least it would be a coalition that represented voters' decisions and not one that no-one either voted for or wanted.



poohdog said:


> 1000 posts on the death of our beloved leader...The North Koreans would be proud...


Too right - they would especially be proud of the sycophants who believe and regurgitate everything she told people to believe, whilst ignoring the actual truth. We've even had one poster on here posting a graph that showed 22% of the population were under the poverty line during her term and tried to say the graph showed poverty was decreasing. Not even North Korea could beat that!


----------



## dorrit

JANICE199 said:


> *As i have the right to vote i also have the right not to.. I've never been so 2 faced as to hide this fact.
> I will say this though, if anyone like myself thought.thinks that ukip is the answer, they had better think again. I would rather ( if i had to ) vote BNP than hide behind ukip.
> So once again, if those of you that value your vote, as you say i should, imho you have only 2 choices. Labour or Tory. That's how i see it. No white wash ect. But again, imo. The race is ONLY between these 2.*


I have often said this when the choice is the devil or the deep blue sea what to do???

I would like to see a box that states * none of the above* or * no confidence in the above* something that would allow you to show that it wasnt that you didnt want to vote but more that you felt you were not represented in candidates available.


----------



## Tinder

That's where the spoiled ballot paper can be used as JaChihuahua has said.

Those arguments I mentioned earlier between my dad and my Maggie loving aunt drummed it into me from an early age that i should exercise the right others had fought and died for. This aunt supported Thatcher but never actually bothered to vote...giving my dad even more fuel for his fire. Thanks to these arguments I knew who the suffragettes were from the age of about 5


----------



## JANICE199

Tinder said:


> That's where the spoiled ballot paper can be used as JaChihuahua has said.
> 
> Those arguments I mentioned earlier between my dad and my Maggie loving aunt drummed it into me from an early age that i should exercise the right others had fought and died for. This aunt supported Thatcher but never actually bothered to vote...giving my dad even more fuel for his fire. Thanks to these arguments I knew who the suffragettes were from the age of about 5


*I have never go along with that argument. Nobody moans about men that don't vote. Also did not the suffragettes fight for the choice for women to vote? Each to their own.*


----------



## Tinder

JANICE199 said:


> *I have never go along with that argument. Nobody moans about men that don't vote. Also did not the suffragettes fight for the choice for women to vote? Each to their own.*


I'm not moaning or judging anyone Janice, just explaining the history behind my own voting practice. I'm not sure if they fought for women's right _not_ to vote. All i know about the women's suffrage movement is that they were fighting to get women the vote and it's good enough for me that I honour that.


----------



## Luz

Where I live, I feel my vote is a waste of time anyway. Its always 90% Tory, 5% Labour and 5% other parties. I voted tactically (Lib Dem) last time and it was still similar to the above. 

If I had voted for the person not the party, it would have been UKIP as the man was incredibly nice- even held my dogs while I went in to vote.


----------



## JANICE199

Tinder said:


> I'm not moaning or judging anyone Janice, just explaining the history behind my own voting practice. I'm not sure if they fought for women's right _not_ to vote. All i know about the women's suffrage movement is that they were fighting to get women the vote and it's good enough for me that I honour that.


*I didn't think you were judging, sorry if my post came across wrong.*


----------



## Supasilvfoxy

True that! 

The Suffragettes fought for the right for women to be able to vote, which doesn't mean that you have to vote if you dont want to.

That said, in order to maintain a democratic society it is the 'duty' for everyone over the age of 18 (used to be 21 when I was young) to vote. Even if that results in a spoiled ballot paper - being the only way you can voice your dissatisfaction with the candidates on offer.


----------



## hutch6

Spellweaver said:


> None of this shows anything at all about what I was saying about the state of the country BEFORE Thatcher took over. But it is certainly an interesting indictment on her time in power:
> 
> Unemployment hit a record high
> 
> Steep decline in manufacturing
> 
> Huge fall in public spending
> 
> Increase in the pay gap between men and women
> 
> Interest rates at record highs
> 
> Union memberships at an all time low
> 
> Strikes at an all time high - over twice as many in 1984 as in the so-called winter of discontent
> 
> Poverty (ie people below the poverty line) risen from 10% to 22%  *22% of the country under the poverty line - think I've answered the question why so many hate Thatcher and her policies *
> 
> Inequality rising
> 
> Your graphs did not prove a thing you meant them to, but they sure as hell have proved a lot of my points! Thank you for posting this link


What steep decline in manufacturing? It dropped 5.39 between 1970 - 1990, that's 20years. In Thatcher's reign it dropped only 2.44% of GDP whereas during the 70's it dropped 2.95% so as I stated earlier, UK Manufacturing was already on its way out. The following political leaders smashed the bottom out of it as in the next 20yrs (predominantly a Labour government) it dropped 5.5%.
Which is more of a drop 5.39% or 5.5%? 2.44% or 2.95%? Simple maths really. So during Thatcher's tenure manufacturing, as a percentage of UK GDP, showed a decent state of stability but as is clearly indicated with the fall in previous years to her tenure it was on the decline.

Huge fall in public spending? Perhaps that was a consequence of the huge rises to allow benefits to fall in line with inflation (something that not a lot of other ministers agreed with).

Public spending as a percentage of GDP went from 44.6% in 1979-1980 to 48.1% 1982-1983 and then hit the original level it was when she took over at 45% in 1995-86 (6yrs after taking over on an 11yr tenure - for over 50% of her tenure was public spending higher than it was before she came to power). It then declined granted down to 39.2% in 1989-1990 but then under Labour it dropped to a low of 34.5% in 2000-2001 - that is 4.7% less than the lowest percentage during Thatcher's premiership. Labour increased public spending until 2009-2010 when it reached 47.7% at its highest.

1982-1983 - 48.1%
2009 - 2010 - 47.7%

Which is the highest percentage?

Reference - How public spending rose under Thatcher

In 2007 - 2008 Labour spent £550.2bn on public spending which equated to 40.9% of the UK GDP. In 2008 -2009 they increased the percentage of UK GDP to 41% - an increase of 0.1% - this increased the financial pot to £583.7bn. So 0.1% increase equated to a £33.5bn increase.

In 1982 -1983 Thatcher spent £128.3bn on public spending which equated to 48.1% of the UK GDP.
A year later during all of the strikes etc (thanks to Scargill making the miners believe they could hold the country ransom) public spending dropped from 48.1% to 47.8% but that actually meant an increase to £149.7bn. So a 0.3% DROP of UK GDP under Thatcher actually meant an increase of £21.4bn. Taking LESS out of the UK GDP and increasing public spending. What a cruel sod she was.

UK public spending since 1963 | UK news | guardian.co.uk

Interest rates at a record high.

Interest rates may have been high but so they were across the board. Borrowing was at an average of 11.4% from 1979 - 1990 and saving was at 9.4%. From 1997 - 2010 interest rates were at an average 4.69% and savings were just 4.5%. A nice difference you may think but when folk took the opportunity to borrow, borrow and borrow because there was no return on money saved (so what's the point, live for now).

Interest Rates on Savings Accounts since 1960

To match these the average weekly wage was increased right across all sectors during Thatcher's tenure. The average weekly top women's wage went from approx £380p/w to £570p/w a difference of £190. From 1997 to 2011 the same demographic saw an increase from £625p/w to £790p/w a difference of £165. There was a £25 extra increase in Thatcher's 12 years than there was in 14years of the Labour government. If you put this in terms of inflation then £1 today was worth £2.94 on average from 1979-1990 whilst it was worth only £1.28 on average between 1997-2010. The differences today would mean the pay increase during Thatcher would be £558.60p/w and £211.20p/w from 1997-2010 going by rate of inflation. You got an increase difference of £347.40p/w with Maggie.
The lower earning females went from (approx) £190 to £200 with Maggie and £200 - £210 with Labour. £10 each way but with inflation that makes £12.80p/w with labour and £29.40p/w with Maggie - over 100% extra. 
The average male went from £380p/w to £410p/w with Maggie. With Labour it was £500p/w to £560p/w. A difference of £30p/w and £60p/w but with inflation, under Maggie it was the equivalent to day of £88.20p/w and with Labour it was £76.80. More of an increase with Maggie yet again.
Average female wage was approx £205p/w in 1979 and £250 in 1990. In 1997 it was £380 and in 2008 it was just over £400p/w. So an increase of £45p/w with Maggie and an increase of just £20p/w with Labour. With inflation Maggie gave you £132.30p/w extra over her years and Labour gave you just £25.60p/w. Hmmmm. Would you like a £25.60 pay rise or a £132.30 pay rise?

All wages increased significantly under Maggie's tenure than they have in the last 14yrs

Here's where you can work it all out:
Historical UK Inflation And Price Conversion
Bank of England Statistical Interactive Database | Interest & Exchange Rates | Official Bank Rate History
Poor Got Richer Under Thatcher - Guy Fawkes' blog

Strikes at an all time high? I don't think so in terms of the number of strikes it was just "the big one". That graph showed how many lost hours due to strikes were incurred and after Scargill promised the Union would win and wouldn't back down to the National Coal Board and Thatcher the members believed him despite the closures that had been happening since the early 1970s. They all walked out, the government trialled the import of coal, found it be to be more economical and when the miners finally went back a year or so later the NCB shut the pits anyway. Scargill shafted the miners because he thought he could shout down a lady prime minister and he took the miners with him so not only did they not get paid for a year they then lost the jobs they were going to lose anyway. Scargill was still drawing off rent for his apartment in London from the National Union of Miners and even went to court to dispute that he was entitled to a property from the NUM in his retirement. Oh yes, a man that is always thinking of others and not power hungry himself regardless of who he takes with him.
BBC News - Arthur Scargill in NUM court battle over London flat costs

Foreign aid spending has rocketed. Under Maggie it averaged at £2153.39M whereas under Labour it averaged £7666.38M. If you go by inflation rates then From 1979-1990 it averaged £6330.966M and from 1997 - 2009 it was £9812.97 - an increase of over 50%.

I can't find the exact figures for the amount spent on welfare but the approximate figure from 1988 as an example was £173.6Billion. IN 2002 it was £389.1Billion. After inflation though that puts 1988 at £510.384Billion and 2002 at £498.048Billion.

As for people below the poverty line, I think you'll find things were much worse in 2008 than they ever were in the 1980's.

Here's a snippet:

In 2008/09, 13½ million people in the UK were living in households below the 60% low-income threshold after deducting housing costs. This is around a fifth (22%) of the population.

This 13½ million figure for 2008/09 is unchanged from 2007/08, and is 1½ million more than the low point in 2004/05. The increases over the last four years follow six uninterrupted years of decreases from 1998/1999 to 2004/05 and are the first increases since 1996/97.

The number of people living in low-income households is still lower (just) than it was during the early 1990s but is much greater than in the early 1980s.

UK: numbers in low income - The Poverty Site

Do you need any other facts or evidence to back up what I was saying or does this help explain it all now?


----------



## Magnus

Spellweaver said:


> I agree - both against Thatcher _and_ against the miners, steelworkers, dockworkers, union members (and in Magnus' case the disabled who, in his wisdom, he has judged as having "F--- all wrong with them) etc etc. But I guess that in some eyes they don't count because they're just ordinary people?


Read it again "some of them", I can name a few if you like, they're in my family.
Friendly hint so you don't make yourself look silly., don't make partial quotes to justify your argument.


----------



## Magnus

hutch6 said:


> What steep decline in manufacturing? It dropped 5.39 between 1970 - 1990, that's 20years. In Thatcher's reign it dropped only 2.44% of GDP whereas during the 70's it dropped 2.95% so as I stated earlier, UK Manufacturing was already on its way out. The following political leaders smashed the bottom out of it as in the next 20yrs (predominantly a Labour government) it dropped 5.5%.
> Which is more of a drop 5.39% or 5.5%? 2.44% or 2.95%? Simple maths really. So during Thatcher's tenure manufacturing, as a percentage of UK GDP, showed a decent state of stability but as is clearly indicated with the fall in previous years to her tenure it was on the decline.
> 
> Huge fall in public spending? Perhaps that was a consequence of the huge rises to allow benefits to fall in line with inflation (something that not a lot of other ministers agreed with).
> 
> Public spending as a percentage of GDP went from 44.6% in 1979-1980 to 48.1% 1982-1983 and then hit the original level it was when she took over at 45% in 1995-86 (6yrs after taking over on an 11yr tenure - for over 50% of her tenure was public spending higher than it was before she came to power). It then declined granted down to 39.2% in 1989-1990 but then under Labour it dropped to a low of 34.5% in 2000-2001 - that is 4.7% less than the lowest percentage during Thatcher's premiership. Labour increased public spending until 2009-2010 when it reached 47.7% at its highest.
> 
> 1982-1983 - 48.1%
> 2009 - 2010 - 47.7%
> 
> Which is the highest percentage?
> 
> Reference - How public spending rose under Thatcher
> 
> In 2007 - 2008 Labour spent £550.2bn on public spending which equated to 40.9% of the UK GDP. In 2008 -2009 they increased the percentage of UK GDP to 41% - an increase of 0.1% - this increased the financial pot to £583.7bn. So 0.1% increase equated to a £33.5bn increase.
> 
> In 1982 -1983 Thatcher spent £128.3bn on public spending which equated to 48.1% of the UK GDP.
> A year later during all of the strikes etc (thanks to Scargill making the miners believe they could hold the country ransom) public spending dropped from 48.1% to 47.8% but that actually meant an increase to £149.7bn. So a 0.3% DROP of UK GDP under Thatcher actually meant an increase of £21.4bn. Taking LESS out of the UK GDP and increasing public spending. What a cruel sod she was.
> 
> UK public spending since 1963 | UK news | guardian.co.uk
> 
> Interest rates at a record high.
> 
> Interest rates may have been high but so they were across the board. Borrowing was at an average of 11.4% from 1979 - 1990 and saving was at 9.4%. From 1997 - 2010 interest rates were at an average 4.69% and savings were just 4.5%. A nice difference you may think but when folk took the opportunity to borrow, borrow and borrow because there was no return on money saved (so what's the point, live for now).
> 
> Interest Rates on Savings Accounts since 1960
> 
> To match these the average weekly wage was increased right across all sectors during Thatcher's tenure. The average weekly top women's wage went from approx £380p/w to £570p/w a difference of £190. From 1997 to 2011 the same demographic saw an increase from £625p/w to £790p/w a difference of £165. There was a £25 extra increase in Thatcher's 12 years than there was in 14years of the Labour government. If you put this in terms of inflation then £1 today was worth £2.94 on average from 1979-1990 whilst it was worth only £1.28 on average between 1997-2010. The differences today would mean the pay increase during Thatcher would be £558.60p/w and £211.20p/w from 1997-2010 going by rate of inflation. You got an increase difference of £347.40p/w with Maggie.
> The lower earning females went from (approx) £190 to £200 with Maggie and £200 - £210 with Labour. £10 each way but with inflation that makes £12.80p/w with labour and £29.40p/w with Maggie - over 100% extra.
> The average male went from £380p/w to £410p/w with Maggie. With Labour it was £500p/w to £560p/w. A difference of £30p/w and £60p/w but with inflation, under Maggie it was the equivalent to day of £88.20p/w and with Labour it was £76.80. More of an increase with Maggie yet again.
> Average female wage was approx £205p/w in 1979 and £250 in 1990. In 1997 it was £380 and in 2008 it was just over £400p/w. So an increase of £45p/w with Maggie and an increase of just £20p/w with Labour. With inflation Maggie gave you £132.30p/w extra over her years and Labour gave you just £25.60p/w. Hmmmm. Would you like a £25.60 pay rise or a £132.30 pay rise?
> 
> All wages increased significantly under Maggie's tenure than they have in the last 14yrs
> 
> Here's where you can work it all out:
> Historical UK Inflation And Price Conversion
> Bank of England Statistical Interactive Database | Interest & Exchange Rates | Official Bank Rate History
> Poor Got Richer Under Thatcher - Guy Fawkes' blog
> 
> Strikes at an all time high? I don't think so in terms of the number of strikes it was just "the big one". That graph showed how many lost hours due to strikes were incurred and after Scargill promised the Union would win and wouldn't back down to the National Coal Board and Thatcher the members believed him despite the closures that had been happening since the early 1970s. They all walked out, the government trialled the import of coal, found it be to be more economical and when the miners finally went back a year or so later the NCB shut the pits anyway. Scargill shafted the miners because he thought he could shout down a lady prime minister and he took the miners with him so not only did they not get paid for a year they then lost the jobs they were going to lose anyway. Scargill was still drawing off rent for his apartment in London from the National Union of Miners and even went to court to dispute that he was entitled to a property from the NUM in his retirement. Oh yes, a man that is always thinking of others and not power hungry himself regardless of who he takes with him.
> BBC News - Arthur Scargill in NUM court battle over London flat costs
> 
> Foreign aid spending has rocketed. Under Maggie it averaged at £2153.39M whereas under Labour it averaged £7666.38M. If you go by inflation rates then From 1979-1990 it averaged £6330.966M and from 1997 - 2009 it was £9812.97 - an increase of over 50%.
> 
> I can't find the exact figures for the amount spent on welfare but the approximate figure from 1988 as an example was £173.6Billion. IN 2002 it was £389.1Billion. After inflation though that puts 1988 at £510.384Billion and 2002 at £498.048Billion.
> 
> As for people below the poverty line, I think you'll find things were much worse in 2008 than they ever were in the 1980's.
> 
> Here's a snippet:
> 
> In 2008/09, 13½ million people in the UK were living in households below the 60% low-income threshold after deducting housing costs. This is around a fifth (22%) of the population.
> 
> This 13½ million figure for 2008/09 is unchanged from 2007/08, and is 1½ million more than the low point in 2004/05. The increases over the last four years follow six uninterrupted years of decreases from 1998/1999 to 2004/05 and are the first increases since 1996/97.
> 
> The number of people living in low-income households is still lower (just) than it was during the early 1990s but is much greater than in the early 1980s.
> 
> UK: numbers in low income - The Poverty Site
> 
> Do you need any other facts or evidence to back up what I was saying or does this help explain it all now?


The Spellweavers of this world have little interest in facts.


----------



## JAChihuahua

happy to continue the debate Magnus... but the more recent thread for maggie is here...

http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/302258-police-margaret-thatchers-funeral.html


----------



## JANICE199

Magnus said:


> The Spellweavers of this world have little interest in facts.


*Nothing could be further from the truth. Spellweaver will ALWAYS back up her facts.*


----------



## koekemakranka

Ag, she is 6 feet under. Let the sleeping auntie lie. :nonod:


----------



## JAChihuahua

koekemakranka said:


> Ag, she is 6 feet under. Let the sleeping auntie lie. :nonod:


sure she was cremated?


----------



## koekemakranka

Oh, OK, in an urn on a mantlepiece somewhere. Let it go people!.


----------



## hutch6

koekemakranka said:


> Oh, OK, in an urn on a mantlepiece somewhere. Let it go people!.


Don't worry, we're not mourning her, it's just people claim this and that when it obvously wasn't the facts, Nothing to do with her death just when she was in power and what she did for the country either send it down the pan or grab it by the scruff of the neck.


----------



## Spellweaver

Magnus said:


> Read it again "some of them", I can name a few if you like, they're in my family.
> Friendly hint so you don't make yourself look silly., don't make partial quotes to justify your argument.


Hmmm. Seems as though the Magnuses of this world have little interest in facts.

Below is the quote from you in full. Nowhere do you mention "some". You lump all disabled into the same category. My quoting part of your post or all of your post does not alter the sense or meaning of what you said. Here it is:



Magnus said:


> Labour spent £80 million refurbishing the offices of the National Audit Office - an organisation meant to keep an eye on public spending!!
> 
> They spent £50 million on promoting ballet.
> 
> Obviously countless billions were wasted on an illegal war (not to mention the lives lost) and £12.7 billion on an NHS computer system that didn't work. That would have paid the wages off 60,000 nurses for ten years!
> 
> £10 million to bury the longest serving PM for 150 years - it's a snip. *They'll save that pretty quickly taking the Mobility cars off people with f*ck all wrong with them.*
> (Don't mention the Gold reserves sell off by Gordon "Prudence" Brown either!)


Friendly hint so you don't make yourself look silly: don't try to put the blame for what you have said on someone partially quoting you when that partial quote was accurate and the sense of it unaltered.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Hadn't realised this thread was still active 

Just wanted to answer this:



Luz said:


> So it doesn't exactly sound like the life of Riley? Whereas those with plenty of money managed to line their pockets by buying shares in all the national industries that were sold off.
> We lived through it too and worked, but it was bloody bleak.


It wasn't like that actually - small investors were given preference (and yes I know that for a fact as the firm I worked for acted as a share shop dealing with the apps when BT was privatised)


----------



## MoggyBaby

Nice to see Maggie still being discussed 2 weeks after she popped her clogs!!!

She would have been over the moon about that!! :thumbup: :thumbup:


:lol: :lol: :lol:


.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MoggyBaby said:


> Nice to see Maggie still being discussed 2 weeks after she popped her clogs!!!
> 
> She would have been over the moon about that!! :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> .


That's just what the silly cow would do, but she wouldn't like most of what is been said about her.


----------



## hutch6

Happy Paws said:


> That's just what the silly cow would do, but she wouldn't like most of what is been said about her.


You actually think she'd care what people say about her after everything she supposedly did to people? The media had it that she was hated whilst she was in office and she still got on with things unphased. She never lost an ellection though, funny that eh?


----------



## haeveymolly

hutch6 said:


> You actually think she'd care what people say about her after everything she supposedly did to people? The media had it that she was hated whilst she was in office and she still got on with things unphased. She never lost an ellection though, funny that eh?


Agree she would have cared one bit,


----------



## Happy Paws2

hutch6 said:


> You actually think she'd care what people say about her after everything she supposedly did to people? The media had it that she was hated whilst she was in office and she still got on with things unphased. *She never lost an ellection though*, funny that eh?


I know, her own party turned on her, that must say something about the bl**dy women. I still can see her in tears leaving No, 10 made my day.


----------



## hutch6

Happy Paws said:


> I know, her own party turned on her, that must say something about the bl**dy women. I still can see her in tears leaving No, 10 made my day.


It freaked me out, I always thought Dennis would be the one chopping the onions.


----------



## chichi

Happy Paws said:


> I know, her own party turned on her, that must say something about the bl**dy women. I still can see her in tears leaving No, 10 made my day.


Get over yourself....the woman is dead and gone...look forward not back...your bitterness is ugly


----------



## Spellweaver

hutch6 said:


> You actually think she'd care what people say about her after everything she supposedly did to people? The media had it that she was hated whilst she was in office and she still got on with things unphased. She never lost an ellection though, funny that eh?


Nothing funny about it at all - her party got rid of her before she could lose an election for them. Typical tory ruthlessness.


----------



## Spellweaver

chichi said:


> Get over yourself....the woman is dead and gone...look forward not back...your bitterness is ugly


But if we don't look back and learn the lessons of the past, we run the risk of the same kind of things happening all over again.

_"Whoever wishes to foresee the future must consult the past; for human events ever resemble those of preceding times. This arises from the fact that they are produced by men who ever have been, and ever shall be, animated by the same passions, and thus they necessarily have the same results." _
Machiavelli

_"History cannot give us a program for the future, but it can give us a fuller understanding of ourselves, and of our common humanity, so that we can better face the future." _
Robert Penn Warren


----------



## hutch6

Spellweaver said:


> Nothing funny about it at all - her party got rid of her before she could lose an election for them. Typical tory ruthlessness.


She lost by 4 votes after her last remaining old guard left, hardly a landslide and they were still ahead inthe polls hence why they won the next election as well.

For what it's worth, I don't think any of the political parties has a "Ruth" in them so that makes them all Ruthless.


----------



## sskmick

Well I'm not going to be popular but for me and the majority of people in the Country who voted for her three times, she was the only one at the time with any backbone.

Let me just remind folks, we had shocking winters because of the miners strikes prior to her getting into power. People (not involved in the coal industry) were on three day weeks (including both my parents), they couldn't claim anything because you had to be laid off for more than three days at that time. There were electric cuts throughout the day to conserve what fuel there was.

My parents house was all electric so we had to make do with sandwiches in the midst of winter with no heating - my parents used to take us out shopping to get warm. I am not joking either. It wasn't just us who suffered the whole bloody Country did, not just for one year or two years either. The last winter pre Margaret Thatcher was known as the winter of discontent.

When Mrs Thatcher became PM, yes she stock piled coal from Europe or where ever and for the first time in years we had a lovely warm winter, hot food in our bellies and my parents were able to work a full week.

Okay her downfall was the Poll Tax which was never abolished just renamed to Council Tax (originally called rates). I was laughing all the way to the bank I paid £350 per year rates but under Margaret Thatcher being one person over the age of 18 it dropped for me to £250 - however my parents having three people over 18 living in the house it cost them £750.00 and this was the problem there should have been a ceiling of a maximum of say 2 adults imo. 

I don't give a dam about politics I only care about what affects me and under Maggie I did very well - Thank you Maggie and god rest your sole.


----------



## haeveymolly

sskmick said:


> Well I'm not going to be popular but for me and the majority of people in the Country who voted for her three times, she was the only one at the time with any backbone.
> 
> Let me just remind folks, we had shocking winters because of the miners strikes prior to her getting into power. People (not involved in the coal industry) were on three day weeks (including both my parents), they couldn't claim anything because you had to be laid off for more than three days at that time. There were electric cuts throughout the day to conserve what fuel there was.
> 
> My parents house was all electric so we had to make do with sandwiches in the midst of winter with no heating - my parents used to take us out shopping to get warm. I am not joking either. It wasn't just us who suffered the whole bloody Country did, not just for one year or two years either. The last winter pre Margaret Thatcher was known as the winter of discontent.
> 
> When Mrs Thatcher became PM, yes she stock piled coal from Europe or where ever and for the first time in years we had a lovely warm winter, hot food in our bellies and my parents were able to work a full week.
> 
> Okay her downfall was the Poll Tax which was never abolished just renamed to Council Tax (originally called rates). I was laughing all the way to the bank I paid £350 per year rates but under Margaret Thatcher being one person over the age of 18 it dropped for me to £250 - however my parents having three people over 18 living in the house it cost them £750.00 and this was the problem there should have been a ceiling of a maximum of say 2 adults imo.
> 
> I don't give a dam about politics I only care about what affects me and under Maggie I did very well - Thank you Maggie and god rest your sole.


brilliant post, i couldnt agree with you more,I remember the strikes too, schools closed and only emergency ops done in hospitals,the trade unions took the coal industry down.


----------



## chichi

Spellweaver said:


> But if we don't look back and learn the lessons of the past, we run the risk of the same kind of things happening all over again.
> 
> _"Whoever wishes to foresee the future must consult the past; for human events ever resemble those of preceding times. This arises from the fact that they are produced by men who ever have been, and ever shall be, animated by the same passions, and thus they necessarily have the same results." _
> Machiavelli
> 
> _"History cannot give us a program for the future, but it can give us a fuller understanding of ourselves, and of our common humanity, so that we can better face the future." _
> Robert Penn Warren


There is a vast difference between looking back..discussing ..debating etc AND just parrotting insults and bitterness towards a women who has passed on.

We have had over 100 pages full of discussion but these..bloody woman (aka whinging about MT)..posts are just getting pointless..its all been said a hundred times on here by the haters.....


----------



## Happy Paws2

chichi said:


> Get over yourself....the woman is dead and gone...look forward not back...your bitterness is ugly


Nasty, Nasty, anyone would think I was talking about you.


----------



## chichi

Happy Paws said:


> Nasty, Nasty, anyone would think I was talking about you.


Not nasty....just expressing that I am fed up with the MT whinging....


----------



## Happy Paws2

chichi said:


> Not nasty....just expressing that I am fed up with the MT whinging....


well don't come on to this thread then, "Simples"


----------



## chichi

Happy Paws said:


> well don't come on to this thread then, "Simples"


What....just because you are in parrot mode ...


----------



## Spellweaver

chichi said:


> Not nasty....just expressing that I am fed up with the MT whinging....


Everyone has right to express their opinions whether you are fed up of it or not. If you are fed up, then don't read the thread any more. If you want to continue to read the the thread, then accept that people are going to make you fed up.

Your choice!


----------



## hutch6

Spellweaver said:


> Everyone has right to express their opinions whether you are fed up of it or not. If you are fed up, then don't read the thread any more. If you want to continue to read the the thread, then accept that people are going to make you fed up.
> 
> Your choice!


Has your opinion changed at all from all of the facts I laid out to explain that she was pretty good for the country and got a lot of stuff moving in the right direction?


----------



## chichi

Spellweaver said:


> Everyone has right to express their opinions whether you are fed up of it or not. If you are fed up, then don't read the thread any more. If you want to continue to read the the thread, then accept that people are going to make you fed up.
> 
> Your choice!


I have a right to express that some of us are sick of the prolonged whinging regarding MT .....thought the direct post might make some realise that they are making themselves sound like a broken record. Yeah we get it...the haters think MT ruined lives...blah blah and blah.....nothing new has come to light so it is all getting a bit old tbh.

Can the haters come up with something new...something that hasnt already been whinged about...because its difficult to debate on the already debated to death points:blink:


----------



## JAChihuahua

chichi said:


> I have a right to express that some of us are sick of the prolonged whinging regarding MT .....thought the direct post might make some realise that they are making themselves sound like a broken record. Yeah we get it...the haters think MT ruined lives...blah blah and blah.....nothing new has come to light so it is all getting a bit old tbh.
> 
> Can the haters come up with something new...something that hasnt already been whinged about...because its difficult to debate on the already debated to death points:blink:


feel free to correct me, but I am certain it was one of her supporters who committed the act of threadomancy! It was Magnus I believe?








:hand:

I'm happy to bring something new, I will if you will!


----------



## chichi

JAChihuahua said:


> feel free to correct me, but I am certain it was one of her supporters who committed the act of threadomancy! It was Magnus I believe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :hand:
> 
> I'm happy to bring something new, I will if you will!


Oh....how dramatic......

I am happy to let the woman rest in peace. Her policies and actions have been ripped to bits on here. Most of the haters complaints have been exposed by members here as being unfounded...yet still the badmouthing goes on:nonod:

I dont need to bring something new...the last 100 odd pages have said it all. I dont see a need to go raking through the same old..same old

If the haters have anything new to bring I would gladly "listen" and respond appropriately:smile:

Personally...I am happy that the lady had a wonderful send-off...one she would have been proud of. I cannot see any point in harbouring hatred for a woman who is dead and gone.


----------



## Spellweaver

hutch6 said:


> Has your opinion changed at all from all of the facts I laid out to explain that she was pretty good for the country and got a lot of stuff moving in the right direction?


Errrm - I've not seen any post of yours that has laid out facts to prove she was good for the country?  

Oh hang on a bit - do you mean post 1010 where, in a totally illogical and unstructured mish-mash you seem to a) move backwards and forwards from Thatcher's terms of office to the present day and somehow claim that that proves she was better for the country than the preceeding labour government and b) manipulate some statistics and omit others to "prove" your points?

No - none of that ridiculousness has changed my opinion that Thatcher was bad for the country - and here is why:



hutch6 said:


> What steep decline in manufacturing? It dropped 5.39 between 1970 - 1990, that's 20years.


A decline whichever way you look at it. No reason to change my opinion there.



hutch6 said:


> In Thatcher's reign it dropped only 2.44% of GDP whereas during the 70's it dropped 2.95% so as I stated earlier, UK Manufacturing was already on its way out. The following political leaders smashed the bottom out of it as in the next 20yrs (predominantly a Labour government) it dropped 5.5%.
> Which is more of a drop 5.39% or 5.5%? 2.44% or 2.95%? Simple maths really. So during Thatcher's tenure manufacturing, as a percentage of UK GDP, showed a decent state of stability but as is clearly indicated with the fall in previous years to her tenure it was on the decline.


No - what it actually showed was that she spent less on things such as the NHS and education. Not good for the country at all - so no need to change my opinion yet.

_"Thatcher squeezed spending on public services such as health and education, mass unemployment"_
How public spending rose under Thatcher



hutch6 said:


> Huge fall in public spending? Perhaps that was a consequence of the huge rises to allow benefits to *fall *in line with inflation (something that not a lot of other ministers agreed with).


Benefits *rose* in line with inflation according to the lnk you posted:

_" ... mass unemployment and the consequent increase in spending on benefits (which, unlike the current government, she allowed to rise with inflation)"_
How public spending rose under Thatcher

So the fact that you are wrong here means I still have no reason to alter my opinion



hutch6 said:


> 1982-1983 - 48.1%
> 2009 - 2010 - 47.7%
> 
> Which is the highest percentage?
> 
> In 2007 - 2008 Labour spent £550.2bn on public spending which equated to 40.9% of the UK GDP. In 2008 -2009 they increased the percentage of UK GDP to 41% - an increase of 0.1% - this increased the financial pot to £583.7bn. So 0.1% increase equated to a £33.5bn increase.
> 
> In 1982 -1983 Thatcher spent £128.3bn on public spending which equated to 48.1% of the UK GDP.


My argument was about Thatcher's policies compared with the preceeding government's policies and nothing to do with policies of succeeding governments - so this is largely irrelevant and, as such, is once again no reason for me to change my opinion.



hutch6 said:


> A year later during all of the strikes etc (thanks to Scargill making the miners believe they could hold the country ransom) public spending dropped from 48.1% to 47.8% but that actually meant an increase to £149.7bn. So a 0.3% DROP of UK GDP under Thatcher actually meant an increase of £21.4bn. Taking LESS out of the UK GDP and increasing public spending. What a cruel sod she was.


In 1983 interest rates were around 9.5%. In 1984 they were around 11%. Factor these into your equation and you will see that the increase in interest rates more than accounts for the increase in public spending. So your manipulation of the statistics is wrong and you still have given me no reason to change my opinion.



hutch6 said:


> Interest rates may have been high but so they were across the board. Borrowing was at an average of 11.4% from 1979 - 1990 and saving was at 9.4%. From 1997 - 2010 interest rates were at an average 4.69% and savings were just 4.5%. A nice difference you may think but when folk took the opportunity to borrow, borrow and borrow because there was no return on money saved (so what's the point, live for now).


Again, comparing interest rates during Thatchers terms to interest rates during succeeding governments has no relevance on my argument and as such you have still given me no reason to change my opinion.



hutch6 said:


> All wages increased significantly under Maggie's tenure than they have in the last 14yrs


Sigh. Again, comparing wages during Thatchers terms to wages during succeeding governments has no relevance on my argument and as such you have still given me no reason to change my opinion.

And all the rest of your post continues in the same vein - comparing what Thatcher did to what has happened since, not to what preceeded her. It is all irrelevant to my argument - but is interesting that you have shown just how things have declined since she was in power - which goes a long way towards my argument that Thatcher started a rot that successive governments have not been able to halt and is still continuing to the present day.

But as for convincing me to change my opinion that she was better than what preceeded her - no, you have given me no facts at all to prove that, so my opinion remains unchanged.


----------



## Spellweaver

chichi said:


> Most of the haters complaints have been exposed by members here as being unfounded...
> .


Really? You must be reading a different thread to the rest of us then!


----------



## JAChihuahua

Spellweaver said:


> Really? You must be reading a different thread to the rest of us then!


well spotted! I must have missed that statement!

Lets see what has supposedly been disproved?

1 - interest rates were falling when she took power
2 - unemployment reached record highs, higher than ever before and higher than the great depression of the 1930's
3 - she supported the Khmer rouge, and helped train them AFTER the "killing fields"
4 - she supported the far right gvt which committed genocide in Guatemala
5 - she destroyed communities and lives.
6 - despite her initial reservations, she took us into europe
7 - her policies paved the way for the succeeding gvts to allow the modern banking and property crisis'.

Just a few to get you started! 

I keep hearing it parroted that the previous gvt closed more mines, yep - and without all the unemployment issues! Succeeding governments made huge mistakes too - not one person I believe has ever refuted that!

AGAIN! WHY do people seem to assume that those who object to Thatchers regime are labour supporters?

Why do people keep comparing her atrocities of other governments? - it doesnt justify their actions! Its why I have systematically ignored all such posts.

Just because I (and others) hated Thatcher, doesnt mean I (we) liked the terms of Blair, Brown, Cameron, or Wilson!


----------



## chichi

Spellweaver said:


> Really? You must be reading a different thread to the rest of us then!


No not "the rest of us" just the few on here that refuse to acknowledge the facts


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## chichi

JAChihuahua said:


> well spotted! I must have missed that statement!
> 
> Lets see what has supposedly been disproved?
> 
> 1 - interest rates were falling when she took power
> 2 - unemployment reached record highs, higher than ever before and higher than the great depression of the 1930's
> 3 - she supported the Khmer rouge, and helped train them AFTER the "killing fields"
> 4 - she supported the far right gvt which committed genocide in Guatemala
> 5 - she destroyed communities and lives.
> 6 - despite her initial reservations, she took us into europe
> 7 - her policies paved the way for the succeeding gvts to allow the modern banking and property crisis'.
> 
> Just a few to get you started!
> 
> I keep hearing it parroted that the previous gvt closed more mines, yep - and without all the unemployment issues! Succeeding governments made huge mistakes too - not one person I believe has ever refuted that!
> 
> AGAIN! WHY do people seem to assume that those who object to Thatchers regime are labour supporters?
> 
> Why do people keep comparing her atrocities of other governments? - it doesnt justify their actions! Its why I have systematically ignored all such posts.
> 
> Just because I (and others) hated Thatcher, doesnt mean I (we) liked the terms of Blair, Brown, Cameron, or Wilson!


I think we have covered the points raised above at some point during this 100+ page thread (or the other MT threads..of which there were a few)...or would the MT haters like to whine a little more about nasty MT spoling lives...all over again.....


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## Spellweaver

chichi said:


> No not "the rest of us" just the few on here that refuse to acknowledge the facts


Hmm - speaking about refusing to acknowledge facts and giving that you earlier said



chichi said:


> Most of the haters complaints have been exposed by members here as being unfounded...


perhaps you could point out to where the following have been exposed as unfounded:

(apologies for stealing shamelessly from JAChihuahua's previous post )

1 - interest rates were falling when she took power and then soared to an all time high
2 - unemployment reached record highs, higher than ever before and higher than the great depression of the 1930's
3 - she supported the Khmer rouge, and helped train them AFTER the "killing fields"
4 - she supported the far right gvt which committed genocide in Guatemala
5 - she destroyed communities and lives.
6 - despite her initial reservations, she took us into europe
7 - her policies paved the way for the succeeding gvts to allow the modern banking and property crisis'

Good luck!


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## chichi

Spellweaver said:


> Hmm - speaking about refusing to acknowledge facts and giving that you earlier said
> 
> perhaps you could point out to where the following have been exposed as unfounded:
> 
> (apologies for stealing shamelessly from JAChihuahua's previous post )
> 
> 1 - interest rates were falling when she took power and then soared to an all time high
> 2 - unemployment reached record highs, higher than ever before and higher than the great depression of the 1930's
> 3 - she supported the Khmer rouge, and helped train them AFTER the "killing fields"
> 4 - she supported the far right gvt which committed genocide in Guatemala
> 5 - she destroyed communities and lives.
> 6 - despite her initial reservations, she took us into europe
> 7 - her policies paved the way for the succeeding gvts to allow the modern banking and property crisis'
> 
> Good luck!


Ha...you really think I have the time or inclination to go trawling through 100 pages of a thread just to prove a point:hand: if only I had so much time spare to carry out such a task...sadly I do not.


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## MoggyBaby

Dear gawd is this thread STILL dragging on......................????





















.


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## JAChihuahua

chichi said:


> Ha...you really think I have the time or inclination to go trawling through 100 pages of a thread just to prove a point:hand: if only I had so much time spare to carry out such a task...sadly I do not.


There is a wonderful button called "thread tools". Within that you can search a thread. I have just done so for the points I raised on this thread and the funeral thread (the ones I participated in, and can be sure I knew that the points were previously raised on at least one of them). Its interesting reading - and still not one of them has yet been disproved. Funnily enough its hard to disprove Facts!

BTW - it took me less than 5min to check each point on 2 threads.

Of course there is another way for you to prove your point! As you have obviously read elsewhere that all the "haters" points I raised have been disproved, perhaps you could spend less than a minute and give me a summary of what you learnt? This doesnt have to be you of course, it could be any other poster - not specificially aimed at you...just in reply to you!


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## haeveymolly

well,well,well to say theres a lot of members that hate her they certainly love talking about her, amazes me until she died i cant ever remember seeing anything on any political threads about MT to say she has ruined so many lives i find that unbelievable.


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## Happy Paws2

haeveymolly said:


> well,well,well to say theres a lot of members that hate her they certainly love talking about her, amazes me until she died i cant ever remember seeing anything on any political threads about MT to say she has ruined so many lives* i find that unbelievable*.


speak to the miners and people that lost there jobs when she sold off the gas, electric and water


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## haeveymolly

Happy Paws said:


> speak to the miners and people that lost there jobs when she sold off the gas, electric and water


I meant i find it unbelievable that she had never featured in any political threads that i have seen if so not many to say she ruined so many lives.

Dont have tell me to speak to miners anyway, i come from one of the biggest mining communities in the country, i also had family that were miners.


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## JAChihuahua

haeveymolly said:


> I meant i find it unbelievable that she had never featured in any political threads that i have seen if so not many to say she ruined so many lives.
> 
> Dont have tell me to speak to miners anyway, i come from one of the biggest mining communities in the country, i also had family that were miners.


Sure she has had her own thread before - when she was hospitalised at christmas.

As for other political threads, I couldnt say - I would guess it would depend on whether mentioning Thatcher was relevant to the topic ... rather like Blair, Brown and Cameron only get passing coments here as they arent really relevant.


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## Spellweaver

haeveymolly said:


> I meant i find it unbelievable that she had never featured in any political threads that i have seen if so not many to say she ruined so many lives.


Not true HM - I can remember just before the last election there was loads about her and her atrocities. I can distinctly remember Janice and I warning that this lot would be even worse than her - and we are being proved right!

Have a look at this thread for example - which you posted on btw 

http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-...ction-whos-everyone-voting-4.html#post1523821

It's a funny thing, the human memory. It allows people to believe exactly what they want to believe


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## haeveymolly

Spellweaver said:


> Not true HM - I can remember just before the last election there was loads about her and her atrocities. I can distinctly remember Janice and I warning that this lot would be even worse than her - and we are being proved right!
> 
> Have a look at this thread for example - which you posted on btw
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-...ction-whos-everyone-voting-4.html#post1523821
> 
> It's a funny thing, the human memory. It allows people to believe exactly what they want to believe


I did say what "i have seen" I actually believe what i believe through experience and my families experience not just what i want to believe, in response to your last comment


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## JAChihuahua

Just did an advanced search...

keyword : Thatcher
Date: 1 month ago and older (to avoid all the recent mentions surrounding her death).

6 pages of threads!!!!

Some threads dedicated to her alone, others sending her into the jungle :devil:, the attitudes of the young (a "me me me" ethic inherited from her apparently), a moment of boris :yikes: talking sense  about reintroducing manufacturing, council housing threads, and my personal favourite... a rant about maggies £535k expenses for ex-pm duties, 6 years AFTER she withdrew from the public on doctors orders. Another reason for me to hate the old cow - now I know she too was in on the expenses scandle!

editing to say... this isnt an attack on you HM, just wanted to see for myself what discussion there had been!


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