# Nail trimming game on position



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I have started training at last! This is part of my susan garratt course and, if i ever get near Tilly's foot, it will be progress.

So i got started last week and got a dremmel and nail clippers. Then i realised i needed a target stick to teach the game on position. Susan uses a game on position so the dog can signal when he is up for nail clipping. And when he has had enough.

Murph already has a game on position for grooming and i thought he is pretty stoic so i havent gone through susan's programme for him.

Basically, i did the exact thing susan says not to do. Got hold of his foot and took the end of his nail off with the clipper. Nearly lost an eye!

Game off all right! Murph does *not* like clippers. However, the dremmel is ok if someone holds a kong full of peanut butter at his nose.

First time i have dremelled his nails ever. I have been doing it all wrong always.

After stumbling upon an article headed "top 5 mistakes dog owners make with dog nails" or something like that, i realised i make every mistake going.

Including leaving it to the groomer twice a year:Bag

Anyway, we got round his nails over a couple of nights and now he doesnt tip tap on the kitchen floor at all.

Holding a distractor at nose level is _not _advised by susan either but it seemed to work ok for murph.

Tills will be a whole different ball game.

However we have started with promise today. Good thing is i have never tried to clip her nails so no negative bad experience. Bad thing i only now realise i should have started as a puppy getting her used to this. Oh well.

So she isnt scared of the sight of the dremmel switched off or on low speed. High speed she doesnt like. But she doesnt like the hoover either so no surprise there.

Game on position. Yes she can do that easily. But as soon as i hold a paw it is game off!!

Still, only day one so i will go very slowly and see if i can get her comfortable with it.

And, as with all training, it has fried both dogs' brains and they are now fast asleep.

Though next door has started drilling the wall. Maybe the dogs will dream of dremmels . . .


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

At the moment we can get one nail trimmed a day before she’s had enough which is at least progress on no nails a day


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

One nail a day will be massive for Till. In fact one nail in a life time will be an achievement.

She has only had them clipped once in her whole life. A woman in the pdsa mobile van did them without tilly even noticing. Just bent down whilst till stood and clipped the whole lot.

They arent really, really long as she is well exercised every day. But they do tap on the kitchen floor. Which i never even realised was such a problem til susan educated me. This is how i have left it so long. Complete ignorance! Was bliss!


I think it will be weeks before i try the dremmel near tilly's paw. There is a lot of work to be done on handling her feet yet. She is very different from murphy. He is cool as a cucumber. She is so touch sensitive. She likes a good shoulder massage and belly rub but not her feet touched.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

It takes 2 people to just clip afew nails for Whisp, 1 to clip and 1 to shove treats in her face. She has enough very quickly and gives us a growl.

Walks are usually in sticky mud at the moment so don't wear her claws down.

We are still desensitizing her to the nail grinder but it's a very slow wal to clip long nails.

Will look in to Susan Garratt.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm still trying to get Penny to let me dremel her nails. I'm banned from using clippers in the house. I tried to un-do my ban and poor Bates bled for a good 30 minutes on a nail I quicked. Talk about horrible dog owner @Boxer123 I totally have you beat - I have never owned a dog I haven't quicked 

Anyway, I am pretty handy with a dremel and I can get nails a lot shorter that way. Penny is fine having her nails clipped now, she's definitely not fine with the dremel and she really needs her nails shorter than we've been able to clip them. 
So far I can touch her gently with the dremel but that's it. It's a LONG process. I'm glad she will let me clip her nails in the meantime!

It's so worth doing it right though. The danes were all fine being dremeled and it makes life SO much easier. Little dogs not that big of a deal to clip them, but clipping big dog nails sucks and you just can't get them short enough for the dog to be comfortable IME. Particularly oldies, it breaks my heart to see old dogs on too long nails


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> She has enough very quickly and gives us a growl.


That's what murph did. Omg i nearly had heart failure. I wear glasses for distance but can see perfectly well close up with no glasses. So i practically had my face pressed against his foot (i am very short sighted) Got the clippers in position. Back foot. He is lying down calmly.

I squeezed the clipper handles together. I think he let out a growl and bark simultaneously. And his head came flying up with teeth bared

I hadnt even drawn blood! Anyway i wont be trying that again


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

tabelmabel said:


> I have started training at last! This is part of my susan garratt course and, if i ever get near Tilly's foot, it will be progress.
> 
> So i got started last week and got a dremmel and nail clippers. Then i realised i needed a target stick to teach the game on position. Susan uses a game on position so the dog can signal when he is up for nail clipping. And when he has had enough.
> 
> ...


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

tabelmabel said:


> That's what murph did. Omg i nearly had heart failure. I wear glasses for distance but can see perfectly well close up with no glasses. So i practically had my face pressed against his foot (i am very short sighted) Got the clippers in position. Back foot. He is lying down calmly.
> 
> I squeezed the clipper handles together. I think he let out a growl and bark simultaneously. And his head came flying up with teeth bared
> 
> I hadnt even drawn blood! Anyway i wont be trying that again


I've never drawn blood, unfortunately the vet did one fateful night and ever since she sees clippers and hides like a beaten waif.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I don't know if Susan Garrett includes this in her course, but one thing I recommend is having a nail grooming "place" and make it a very comfortable and rewarding place for the dog to be. 
I find it also helps to wear a headlamp for light (particularly with black nails) and I wear my reading glasses. 

A good desensitization program is the way to go for sure, but honestly if your dog has really long nails, it might be worth a quick restrain (and sedation if needed) and get them knocked down. Nails that are constantly touching the ground make the feet themselves painful which in turn makes handling painful, which makes regular clipping painful, and it becomes a vicious cycle. Once the nails are a good length, a lot of dogs become less fussy about having their paws handled. 

And a quick restrain and clip won't scar your dog for life either. If you can be quick and matter of fact, the dog won't even know what happened. With Penny, I picked her up, OH clipped one nail, we jollied her up, woo hoo party party, put her down, gave her treats, done. 
Did that about 5 times, now she lets me hold her while he does all 4 feet. She gets squirmy towards the end, but not because she's upset, just because she doesn't like to be still for that long 

With the dremel I'm being much more methodical, but she doesn't hold the restrained nail clips against me either.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Im a whizz with guinea pig nails. Super simple. Ive drawn blood on some of my pigs past with black nails but a bit of flour is enough for a pig's nail. The pigs i have just now have clear nails so it is really easy to see the blood line.

Same as in dogs, it recedes with regular clipping. I bet murphs' bloodline was right close to the end and that is why he saw fit to rearrange my features.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> I don't know if Susan Garrett includes this in her course, but one thing I recommend is having a nail grooming "place" and make it a very comfortable and rewarding place for the dog to be.
> I find it also helps to wear a headlamp for light (particularly with black nails) and I wear my reading glasses.
> 
> A good desensitization program is the way to go for sure, but honestly if your dog has really long nails, it might be worth a quick restrain (and sedation if needed) and get them knocked down. Nails that are constantly touching the ground make the feet themselves painful which in turn makes handling painful, which makes regular clipping painful, and it becomes a vicious cycle. Once the nails are a good length, a lot of dogs become less fussy about having their paws handled.
> ...


So you think cutting the quick is the way to go?, I'd think that's the way to get bitten with an already nervous dog.

Whisp winces when her foot is pulled up, any pain and she would have her teeth bared.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> So you think cutting the quick is the way to go?, I'd think that's the way to get bitten with an already nervous dog.
> 
> Whisp winces when her foot is pulled up, any pain and she would have her teeth bared.


No, that's not at all what I said.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Kakite said:


> So we had an interesting day.
> 
> Multiple earthquakes off the NZ coast and we got evacuated from the CBD while I was at work and move to higher ground. Thankfully we could get to Nova. All ended up being okay and we are at Home and Safe.
> 
> ...





O2.0 said:


> it might be worth a quick restrain (and sedation if needed) and get them knocked down.


Sorry I must have read it wrong.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Beth78 said:


> Sorry I must have read it wrong.


I though quick restrain meant cutting the quick, totally not what you typed.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> No, that's not at all what I said.


Given your expertise of cutting the quick


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Lost in translation


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> I though quick restrain meant cutting the quick, totally not what you typed.


Oh I see! 
No, I meant restrain the dog quickly LOL!

Whisp's nails are pretty long. I imagine her feet hurt just being touched because those nails are hitting the ground every time she walks and her toes are just sore, much like your feet would be sore if your nails were too long inside a tight shoe. 
So just touching her feet is sore, which makes it hard to desensitize her to having her feet touched. 
If she were mine, I'd get the vet to sedate her and knock the nails back. That will give her feet a chance to not be so sore, from there you can work on desensitizing her. But if you get them back first it will give you a real leg up because they won't be so sore being touched.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> Given your expertise of cutting the quick


Well I've quicked Bates more times than I can count and he still falls asleep while I'm dremeling him. 
I quicked Breez twice, she still had no issues letting me dremel her or clip her nails. 
I've never quicked Penny, but I am the one who grabs her, holds her still while OH clips her nails, and she is getting better and better about having her nails done. 
If you don't freak out about it, they won't.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> Lost in translation


What I understand @O2.0 is saying is what I do. Isla is always giving a paw, it's a default with her, so we hold the paw and snip her nail quickly as possible certainly not too the quick, just a small amount. A vet once said to me that regularly snipping off the tips was a useful thing to do


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Ashamedly bowed head.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

No, cutting the quick is not the way to go @Beth78 - i didnt mean that at all. But little and often on guinea pig nails causes the blood to recede further and further back so you can cut shorter.

So, with murph, as i hadnt ever cut his nails (and im not sure the groomer did in october tbh) his blood line will be right down close to the nail tip.

I didnt draw blood but i bet i was so close to that quick!

I think, when the nails have never been done before, you cant just hack them short. You have to take a tiny bit off over a few days and weeks til the blood line recedes.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh im lost in this thread @Beth78 - sorry, the convo has moved on and im well out of it now:Hilarious


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I don't understand either. I've got lost.

I cut my dogs nails on her terms and haven't yet resorted to sedation.


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## Nicola234 (Nov 10, 2020)

Charlie will lie down and let me cut his nails with no dramas, not what I was expecting as if you go near him with a tooth brush he’ll freak out and growl


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Nicola234 said:


> Charlie will lie down and let me cut his nails with no dramas, not what I was expecting as if you go near him with a tooth brush he'll freak out and growl


Opposite to Whisp, toothbrush, great. Nail clipper, No.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

*sigh*

I'm just trying to give helpful tips. 

Penny came to us with long nails, I get it, sometimes it's out of your control. But once a dog has long nails it becomes a vicious cycle of the nails/toes hurting, dog doesn't want to be touched on his feet, gets harder to clip and the nails stay long and the dog stays uncomfortable. 

It's not "resorting" to sedation. If the dog won't let you clip one nail, there's nothing wrong with a good amnesia inducing anesthetic and knocking the nails back. Vets do this all the time. 

Once the nails are more manageable, and the dog is in less pain, you can be much more successful at desensitization and getting a good nail routine going.


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## Nicola234 (Nov 10, 2020)

Beth78 said:


> Opposite to Whisp, toothbrush, great. Nail clipper, No.


lol well I definitely thought I'd have more problems with the nails


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> I cut my dogs nails on her terms and haven't yet resorted to sedation.


Tbh that is all im aiming for. To get tilly's nails cut at all will be a flag day for me lol. Im going to give susan's way the best chance as, ideally, it will be nice if she can accept it.

But if you're getting Whisp's nails done at all, you are streets ahead of me. I cant even hold a paw yet!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Weirdly nails have never been an issue for my lot. I'm not saying they are perfect and it's easy, but I just don't have the fuss. 
Puzzle is easy and although he doesn't enjoy it, I just get him when he's chilling out at my feet or on the sofa and get them all done. They grow quickly too so we do it every couple of weeks (if I remember!) He'll fidget, but I just chat to him and he's an amiable chap so we get it done then he gets to relax. 
Nooka has allergies and when they flare up her feet get sore so this means she doesn't like me touching her feet, but she is not the type to tell me off she just tries to get away. I can get both front feet done by doing nail - treat, nail - treat etc then I will go over them tidying them up. I do need someone to have her head end giving treats when I do her back feet though. I don't do them too often because of her foot issue but they aren't too bad.
Fly is different. His aren't long for a lurcher really, and so I only take a bit off at a time. He's the type where you stop when they tell you. I can usually do 2 feet then he gets nippy and silly, which tells me he has had enough which is fine. I can go back to him later. With him as he's food OBSESSED I do a foot before he gets a few treats or he gets a bit too focused on food. He's fairly good though. 
As I can clip them all OK I don't see the need for a dremel, but if I had a dog with really hard nails I would definitely invest. 
I have clipped a lot of nails over the years, the worst are chihuahuas... little bitey devils!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

OH also does my nails, I think I know how Isla feels now


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Sarah H said:


> New Weirdly nails have never been an issue for my lot. I'm not saying they are perfect and it's easy, but I just don't have the fuss.


Did you start yours as pups @Sarah H ? I think this was where i went wrong. Murph is great on grooming generally as i started him from early days. But i never bothered with Tilly short hair. Mistake i feel.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

tabelmabel said:


> Did you start yours as pups @Sarah H ? I think this was where i went wrong. Murph is great on grooming generally as i started him from early days. But i never bothered with Tilly short hair. Mistake i feel.


Only Nooka. And when she was a few months old I remember vividly cutting her quick just before we were headed off to lunch with the neighbours! I was petrified she was going to bleed out :Hilarious:Hilarious She didn't even notice....lol
Nowadays I don't know if it's just because I'm used to doing different dogs that I don't worry too much about it and just get on with it. Puzzle and Fly I didn't get till they were older and I've always just got on with it. I'm sure had they been really stressed I'd have done something to try and counter condition nail trimming, but I literally grab the clippers, grab the treats, and grab their feet! I do acknowledge any signs of discomfort and give them short breaks to reset, and I will stop if they really want to, but generally we just get on with it and they understand that once it's done then it's done. Nooka and Fly both have black nails so maybe it's that too, I just don't worry about it too much and if I'm not stressing they don't.
My boss's belgians are complete drama queens about it. I once went up to their yard to check what was going on as I heard a dog screaming - she shouted down to me it was fine and they were just doing nails. She hadn't even clipped the nail but just picked her foot up and the dog screamed, it was hilarious :Hilarious Honestly...


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Sarah H said:


> She hadn't even clipped the nail but just picked her foot up and the dog screamed, it was hilarious :Hilarious Honestly...


I can well imagine as Tills is the ultimate drama queen. When she went for her spay, i told them they'd probably have a job getting a needle in her for the anaesthetic. They smiled like "don't worry, we are professionals"

I left. 20 mins later they called me on my mobile. Most difficult dog he had ever come across. She was finally under but if she needed any vaccinations doing, he would do them whilst she was under as he didnt think any vet would get a needle in her ever again. (They have) Never thought to ask about nails lol and she didn't need any jags.

Went to collect her later. Vet appeared with his arms scratched to ribbons (those nails!!)

For the size of her, my goodness she is _strong_. She twists like a writhing eel.

Anyway, i should really have started to do something about the situation ages ago but better late than never i suppose.

I was trying to show OH what id taught her today. First bit, she has nailed that.

I say "game on" and she goes right to position. That is all good. Click and treat, lies there perfect just as in Susan's demo vid.

Touch a foot. Just lightly with a hand. No dremmel anywhere in sight and she is up and away!! It could take a long time at this rate . . .


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Touch a foot. Just lightly with a hand. No dremmel anywhere in sight and she is up and away!! It could take a long time at this rate . . .


You may have to click and reward for reaching for the foot first before you touch it.

Always look for a way to break it down even more. 
Some dogs react to the hand reaching, so you have to click and treat before that point. 
Some dogs can't get past the hand reaching to the paw so you have to teach them to put their paw in your hand.

Once they're comfortable putting a paw in your hand or letting you put your hand on their paw, work on pressure, squeezing the foot, manipulating individual toes, etc.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I can't bear cutting nails even my own. For some reason it sends shivers down my back and always has. 

The Schnauzer boys get their nails cut either by the groomer of the vet. They were trained as puppies to stand still so having their nails cut doesn't worry them one bit.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Magyarmum said:


> The Schnauzer boys get their nails cut either by the groomer of the vet.


I left it up to the groomer for murph - problem is he only goes to the groomer twice a year. I only ever send him to the groomer just before we go on holiday as i like to have him lovely and clean for the accomodation. I can groom him perfectly well myself as regards keeping him mat free but we dont have a bath and it takes an age to rinse him through in our shower.

I only discovered recently that the nails are supposed to be done every week. I dont know why this never occured to me before as i have always done the guinea pigs once a week so it makes total sense really.

Maybe i thought they'd wear naturally but the fact i can hear them on the hard floor shows that isnt the case.

If i thought the vet or groomer could get near tilly's feet, id send her there but i dont think they will have any more luck than me.

I wish id known this once a week thing when she was a small pup but you live and learn i suppose.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

tabelmabel said:


> I left it up to the groomer for murph - problem is he only goes to the groomer twice a year. I only ever send him to the groomer just before we go on holiday as i like to have him lovely and clean for the accomodation. I can groom him perfectly well myself as regards keeping him mat free but we dont have a bath and it takes an age to rinse him through in our shower.
> 
> I only discovered recently that the nails are supposed to be done every week. I dont know why this never occured to me before as i have always done the guinea pigs once a week so it makes total sense really.
> 
> ...


I've never heard that dog nails need to be cut once a week. In fact it's only in the past 10 years my dogs have had their nails clipped at all and only when they go to the groomer or when I ask the vet to trim them. That's not to say I don't check them regularly but normally their daily walks and running around outside most of the day are sufficient to keep them at a reasonable length.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Yes, once a week to keep that blood line right receded and the nails good and short.

My dogs are both out running free for at least an hour each day and Tilly an hour and a half more often but its on grass, woodland mainly. They arent doing enough street walking as the nails are still audible on the hard floor.

They arent terribly long, i will try to get a pic of Tilly's up later. But they do tip tap.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

https://youdidwhatwithyourweiner.com/top-5-mistakes-people-make-when-cutting-their-dogs-nails/

Check out #3 @Magyarmum - you and me both are making "the biggest fatal flaw"

Hopefully the author of this article has misunderstood the meaning of 'fatal' my old dog lived perfectly well til 16yrs without a single nail trim and it wasnt his feet that finished him off lol.

It does make sense though, a lot of points made here.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

The dremel scares me a bit, what if the dog moves and it touches them?
Do they do dog ones that are less noisy?
Can you see easily when to stop? Tilly's nails are brown and some are stripy so I can't the quick well.

I try to clip a bit off Tilly regularly, with her back problems I want to reduce any other impact as much as possible.
But my tiny bits probably aren't doing an awful lot.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Arny said:


> The dremel scares me a bit, what if the dog moves and it touches them?


I do far less damage with a dremel than I can do with clippers.

I've dremeled my own knuckles multiple times, it's fine, it just roughs up the skin. You're not going to hurt the dog with an accidental touch of the dremel. 
The only issue I would see with a dremel is long hair - long haired dog or long haired person. I always tie my hair back when dremeling and if you have a dog with long hair near the paws, take an old stocking, put it over the foot, push the nails through the stocking and pull it up effectively trapping the hair under the stocking and leaving the nail exposed. Or simply keep the foot hair well trimmed before dremeling.

When you quick a dog with the dremel, it's a teeny tiny pinprick of blood. I've only done it once with Bates and he didn't even notice. 
I think bigger dogs find the dremel much more comfortable because the nail never gets squeezed like clippers will even if you keep them sharp.

The mechanics take some getting used to, you have to keep the toe very still, I put my index finger on the toe pad, and my thumb on the top of the nail and push it out a little (like getting a cat to push out their claws) and that helps keep the toe still. Otherwise I do think it tickles a little.

And for the dogs who don't tolerate clippers or dremel, you can always teach them to use a scratch board to help get the nails down. I'd still work on paw handling though because as the dog gets older it becomes even more important to keep those nails short and old dogs may not be able to use a scratch board. 
I think about my Bates, his nails grow even faster these days (he's 12), and now more than ever he needs them kept short for his own comfort and stability. There's no way he could use a scratch board, he just doesn't have the stability anymore. But he is perfectly happy to snooze on the sofa while I dremel him.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Falcor has 'hare feet' it's a recognised breed trait
I could trim his nails back to his toes (I wouldn't ) and they'd still be clicking on the floor
He's an absolute nightmare to have his feet done, as soon as he sees those clippers he freaks and the crestie scream has to be heard to be believed
Grooming is fine, he falls asleep whilst at the groomers, but twice now he's emptied his an glands everywhere, when she tries to clip them, through fear
Matt and I have been trying to show him that clip =treat by using a tube of primula/ a tube of paste he was sent for Christmas on a thing you normally stick to the door, but we have no doors so one of us holds it, and whilst the other takes a teeny bit off at a time
Foglia's ok-ish, except for the outside toe, on each front foot, which is a hammer toe and we have to keep on top of it.
When she first arrived they were both curled right into the pads, and she had to go to be sedated so vet could get them out of the pads, which crumbled as they came away and clip it back, she must've been in so much pain
She just gets bored very easily as she's like a kid on blue smarties most of the time


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> I do far less damage with a dremel than I can do with clippers.
> 
> I've dremeled my own knuckles multiple times, it's fine, it just roughs up the skin. You're not going to hurt the dog with an accidental touch of the dremel.
> The only issue I would see with a dremel is long hair - long haired dog or long haired person. I always tie my hair back when dremeling and if you have a dog with long hair near the paws, take an old stocking, put it over the foot, push the nails through the stocking and pull it up effectively trapping the hair under the stocking and leaving the nail exposed. Or simply keep the foot hair well trimmed before dremeling.
> ...


That's great. She's short haired so won't have that problem. I'll have to watch some demos and see how she is with the sound, she doesn't care about the hoover but from memory dremel is higher pitched than that. It might make the cats go running though.
She doesn't care about her feet being touched luckily but I think more gets bored with me faffing about taking slivers off the same nail multiple times.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Arny said:


> The dremel scares me a bit, what if the dog moves and it touches them?
> Do they do dog ones that are less noisy?
> Can you see easily when to stop? Tilly's nails are brown and some are stripy so I can't the quick well.
> 
> ...


You can get quieter ones. I got a 2 speed one with a light. Murph did move the first time i tried it. I dropped it and it wound up into his hair

It switched itself off though and i got it out of his hair all right. Mine both have black nails. As i look end on at murphy's nail, i can see the pulp (a jet black circle in the middle) getting bigger. When it is as wide as the nail, stop as the quick is right there next.

The dremmel is easy to use but you can only hold it on a few seconds at a time as it heats up and that can hurt. I think it might be tickly for dogs but not painful.

Murph tolerates it really well on his back feet. His front are more sensitive to handle but we have managed to distract him on a licky mat.

Much easier than clippers


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Here are Tilly's nails. Her front 2 feet are on the paper. Her left back foot is on the floor. She stood really well for me to get this pic

So she hasnt had a clipper or dremmel near her for 3 yrs at least:Bag

And likely could be another 3 yrs before i do get her "dremmel ready"

















It seems to be the middle nail on each foot that are really long. The others arent too bad (considering!)


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Arny said:


> That's great. She's short haired so won't have that problem. I'll have to watch some demos and see how she is with the sound, she doesn't care about the hoover but from memory dremel is higher pitched than that. It might make the cats go running though.
> She doesn't care about her feet being touched luckily but I think more gets bored with me faffing about taking slivers off the same nail multiple times.


Well you're all going to think me an awful owner when I admit this, but since I've already apparently won the worst owner prize, I'll tell you  
We've recently started running the vacuum while dremeling because the dremeling on a big dog's nails creates so much dust. We just put the nozzle attachment next to the foot being dremeled and it sucks the dust away. Bates doesn't care and I wonder if the vacuum helps drown out the noise of the dremel?

I think the sensation of the dremel is harder for the dogs to get used to than the actual noise of it. Some of the newer ones are pretty quiet.

One thing you can try is getting the dog used to the 'feel' of the dremel by holding the dremel in your hand, and then using a finger from that hand to touch the dog's paw. It gets them used to how the dremel feels without the full effect. And then you build from there.

And a good nail shot that also proves my dogs aren't completely tortured! Both are due for a trim, I won't wake them up but today is a nail day. If I can get a good after photo I'll share that.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2021)

Nova has mainly black nails - there are literally just 2-3 nails where I can see the quick. We hardly ever walk on surfaces that wear her nails down naturally and they seem to grow rather fast. I was shown how to trim her nails at puppy classes when she was about 10 weeks and have been clipping them regularly since then. She is pretty used to it and normally relaxed. Recently she has not been too happy for me to clip but I just started back from scratch conditioning her and she is now fine again. She prefers having it done outside in the garden where she’ll lie on her side on the grass and I can clip all of her nails or at least most of them in one go. 

They also showed us how to brush our pups teeth at puppy school and nova again is very used to it. I’m grateful we started early and kept up with it. I clip a few of my friends dogs nails to or show them how to do it on their pups. I’m not an expert but I actually find it so satisfying


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

tabelmabel said:


> You can get quieter ones. I got a 2 speed one with a light. Murph did move the first time i tried it. I dropped it and it wound up into his hair
> 
> It switched itself off though and i got it out of his hair all right. Mine both have black nails. As i look end on at murphy's nail, i can see the pulp (a jet black circle in the middle) getting bigger. When it is as wide as the nail, stop as the quick is right there next.
> 
> ...


That's really helpful thank you.



O2.0 said:


> Well you're all going to think me an awful owner when I admit this, but since I've already apparently won the worst owner prize, I'll tell you
> We've recently started running the vacuum while dremeling because the dremeling on a big dog's nails creates so much dust. We just put the nozzle attachment next to the foot being dremeled and it sucks the dust away. Bates doesn't care and I wonder if the vacuum helps drown out the noise of the dremel?


:Hilarious I was thinking oh I wonder if it drowns the sound out before reading on.
She quite likes the hoover, well she always ends up plonking herself in front of it so it might be calming.
My dremel, well my dads, is ancient so maybe I should invest in a new one. Once I test what's she's like with the feel of it, thanks for the tips.
This is last picture I took that has her feet in it.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Arny said:


> That's really helpful thank you.
> 
> :Hilarious I was thinking oh I wonder if it drowns the sound out before reading on.
> She quite likes the hoover, well she always ends up plonking herself in front of it so it might be calming.
> ...


Tilly is an older dog isn't she? Her nails look pretty good to me but I think you may both like the dremel better. They're not terribly expensive, may be worth getting one 

My general rule is for the nail to not touch the floor when the dog is standing normally, even leaning forward a bit. Basically the dog should be able to stand on the floor, shift his/her weight and not have any pressure on his/her nails. I've heard the penny rule before, you should be able to slide a penny under the nail when the dog is standing.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Tilly is an older dog isn't she? Her nails look pretty good to me but I think you may both like the dremel better. They're not terribly expensive, may be worth getting one
> 
> My general rule is for the nail to not touch the floor when the dog is standing normally, even leaning forward a bit. Basically the dog should be able to stand on the floor, shift his/her weight and not have any pressure on his/her nails. I've heard the penny rule before, you should be able to slide a penny under the nail when the dog is standing.


She's 10
The back I've thought are ok but looking at Penny's could go even shorter.
I've just had a look and they're surprisingly cheap and cordless!
I will buy one today as its just my confidence with clippers that's holding us back.
Thanks @tabelmabel for starting this and giving me the push to finally buy one! Hopefully your Tilly will be trained in no time.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sarah H said:


> My boss's belgians are complete drama queens about it. I once went up to their yard to check what was going on as I heard a dog screaming - she shouted down to me it was fine and they were just doing nails. She hadn't even clipped the nail but just picked her foot up and the dog screamed, it was hilarious :Hilarious Honestly...


I just saw this on FB and thought of this comment 



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2233732640091511


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I just saw this on FB and thought of this comment
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2233732640091511


Ahahahaha it was almost exactly like that :Hilarious


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Some progress with Till today. It is slow but measurable lol. So i can now switch the dremmel up to top speed and there is no negative reaction at all. She flew out of the room the first time. This is nowhere near her foot. This is literally just pulling an assortment of objects out of a bag and click treat for dremmel.

She stayed close to the bag throughout and even with dremmel switched on, she stayed close and showed no fear.


Game on position is good still and i made some tiny progress in being able to touch the top of one paw whilst she stayed in position. But only for seconds, then her head came up.

It will be slow going i think. If i manage to get her to the stage of ever being able to dremmel each nail whilst she lies there calmly, it will be my greatest dog training achievement ever. Hopes are high but reality lurks round every corner. I will just need to take it very very slowly and see what we can achieve.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I hope @tabelmabel doesn't mind if I piggyback here too rather than starting a whole new thread.

I got inspired and ordered a quieter dremel with a light, should be here Tuesday. 
In the meantime some photos to see if I can show progress:

Penny's nails the day I caught her:









So much for hard surfaces wearing nails down. She was on a road mainly and hard-packed sun-baked ground, wandering around most of the day, and her nails still looked like this!

Nails today after about 6 months of taking little bits off once a week. 









And hind feet:









There is plenty of ground clearance, but she definitely clicks on the laminate floor when she walks. 
Here are her front feet from the side:
















Penny has nice, tight cat feet so her nails pull in when she stands, but like I said, she still clicks on the laminate, so I'm going to see if I can get them a little shorter. And she jumps up on my legs and that's not going to be as cute in the summer when we're all in shorts. I know I know, shite dog trainer isn't bothered by dog jumping up :Bag

I don't want to go dog-show short though because she is a digger and a climber and she does need some nail. We'll just see how it goes


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

No, i dont mind at all. We can try communications on the nail thread and see if small steps work as well for us as they do for our dogs:Hilarious:Hilarious


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Here are Fly's nails. I don't do them as often as I should, and they could do with a trim, but for a sighthound they are good and I do allow some length as he needs the traction.

Front feet. The outer toe nails are always longer as they don't wear down naturally as much as the middle 2 toes.









Back feet. Naturally wear down more than the front as he pushes off with his back legs. Again the out 2 toes are slightly longer.









And here just to show the length when relaxed.









Granted I am quite on top of nipping the ends off when needed so they look fairly good for a hound if I do say so myself! All the lurchers and sighthounds I see tend to have super long nails, and considering they are prone to corns and foot issues I'd have thought people could at least try and keep the nails slightly shorter. 
@Beth78 what are Whisp's like lengthwise? If they are super long and you are struggling I'd honestly get the vets to cut them back so you can start afresh. Or if you have a groomer friend who could have a go? Sometimes people who do it all the time and are super confident can just get on with it without the dog worrying. I do it at work all the time when people come in and ask us to do the nails while the dog stays. They can't do it at home and we just spend 5 mins and get them done no fuss! Never have an issue!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Fly's feet are a good example of hare feet 
Yeah, those side nails are hard to keep short.

I'll try to get a shot of Bates' feet, I hate how long they are compared to what they used to look like back when he was younger.
I swear old dog nails grow harder and faster than young dog nails, and of course diminished activity doesn't help either.
I still manage to keep them well off the ground though.

I did find an old photo of what it looks like when you quick them with a dremel. Like I said, none of my guys even flinch when I've quicked them with a dremel, they don't even notice, and you don't need anything to stop the bleeding. I think dremeling helps the quick recede better too as you can get a lot closer to it without any discomfort to the dog.

This is a dane foot, it's easy to see everything, you can see the shell that wraps around, the pulpy part inside, and within the pulpy part is the quick. 
You can still clip or dremel that top part of the nail above the quick to help it recede.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

The new dremel came!! Well, it came yesterday and I had to charge it. Today I used it. 
OMG!!! The right tool for the job makes a massive difference. It took me half as long to dremel Bates this afternoon. Fastest job yet.

This is the dremel I got and it's got enough power to grind though Bates super tough nails and the lower speed was fine for Penny. I even managed a few toes on her. It's as quiet as an electric toothbrush. She didn't mind the noise at all. And if she is busy eating I can get a few touches in before she even notices. 
Yay!!

Bates nails today after a quick dremel. 
Front feet:









Rear feet:
In this first photo below, you can really see how even when he leans forward to shift his weight, his nails clear the ground well, and all of his toe pad can make contact with the ground without interference. For old guys who don't have the best balance anyway, that's so important.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh yes very nice nails indeed Excellent job!



O2.0 said:


> This is the dremel I got


Did you forget to post a pic of your dremmel

Not much progress with Tilly. She is totally not scared of the dremmel - even trying to sniff it in the high speed position today and she could probably do with a few inches taken off that nose of hers. Gets her into so much bother.

It hasnt been anywhere near a paw of course - we're nowhere near that. Im just trying to get her more relaxed in her position. I was getting somewhere yesterday, then my daughter came in and up jumped Till. She is like a cat on hot bricks.

Today i made mention of the game on position to tilly and out pops murph from behind his chair! Any chance of a treat and out he comes. He is an expert at demonstrating the relaxed position.

Bit worried about these treats i got. Really cheap - i just picked up a few bags of junk cheapy treats at B&M. Both dogs had about 5 each yesterday. And later Tilly was very quiet and subdued - had taken herself off to a room on her own.

And that is not normal behaviour at all for her.

So i started to use the same ones today and then it dawned on me.

In the frame for potential causes are

A) these treats

B) a rotten fish she rolled in on Monday. Though she was fine all Monday.

If she subdues to the point of unconsciousness, i will whip off all her nails before getting her along to the vet


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Did you forget to post a pic of your dremmel


Oh gosh I did!!
Here we go!
https://www.amazon.com/Casfuy-Dog-N...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Freeze dried beef liver cut up in to tiny cubes is a hit around here. 
Penny lets us touch her feet no problem. Today I got a few toes dremeled with a 3 person team. OH held her, daughter gave her treats, and I dremeled. Daughter held the treats so Penny had to root and dig a little to get at it. Dremel = treats happen, stop dremeling, treats go away. She's quickly making the association and learning that she's not going to lose a toe


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Snap! Exactly the same as mine - that is SG's recommended beginner one - she also uses a branded dremmel dremmel.

Jo told me you had a new dog last summer i think. I cant remember. This year has been a bit of a blur. I think i did know. Maybe.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Snap! Exactly the same as mine - that is SG's recommended beginner one - she also uses a branded dremmel dremmel.
> 
> Jo told me you had a new dog last summer i think. I cant remember. This year has been a bit of a blur. I think i did know. Maybe.


I just re-read her nail blog and yup, that's exactly the one I got. The diamond tip is nice too. I did buy a diamond tip for my dremel years ago for the danes because I was having to change sandpaper after two toes. Plus the sandpaper gets a lot hotter than the diamond tip does.

Nail blog post for anyone who hasn't seen it:
https://susangarrettdogagility.com/2013/08/cutting-your-dogs-nails-how-important-is-it-really/
The video is well worth a watch. She's very right about old dogs, Bates nails at times have been longer than I would like and it absolutely makes a difference in how much he's willing to do and even where he's willing to walk. I know it's time for nails when he starts getting reluctant to cross the stream or walk on the gravel driveway.

And yup, have a new dog, a little swamp rat meth puppy thing we found on the side of the road and I spent about a week getting close enough so I could finally catch her. She's a hot mess as the kids would say, but she's a ton of fun too


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> The new dremel came!! Well, it came yesterday and I had to charge it. Today I used it.
> OMG!!! The right tool for the job makes a massive difference. It took me half as long to dremel Bates this afternoon. Fastest job yet.
> 
> This is the dremel I got and it's got enough power to grind though Bates super tough nails and the lower speed was fine for Penny. I even managed a few toes on her. It's as quiet as an electric toothbrush. She didn't mind the noise at all. And if she is busy eating I can get a few touches in before she even notices.
> ...


I see, very good. I will strive to get Whisps like that.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I've done well with murphy's back ones. I cant say he is that comfortable with having it done. We just went for the distraction technique. I have been at his front ones but he is not as willing on those and pulled away so they need another go.

Tilly is going to be a tricky customer. She is ok with ears and mouth inspection. But her feet and bottom end are super sensitive. If she gets and brambles or anything stuck in her butt hair when walking, she wont let me pull them out; she has to bite them out herself. I should have started on this years ago. But she is still only 3 so there is time yet hopefully.

I keep looking at her nails now though and want them lopped off but im going to have to keep calm and slowly slowly. The only way with tilly is going to be getting her on side. Im not going to risk any distraction techniques. Im sticking to working on getting her relaxed with handling.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> I see, very good. I will strive to get Whisps like that.


If you're starting with really long nails that put pressure on her toes when she's standing I would take @Sarah H advice and maybe see if your vet can help you get them knocked back enough to take some pressure off. 
Once they're shorter, Whisp will probably be less fussy about having her feet messed with because the toes themselves won't be as sore.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> If you're starting with really long nails that put pressure on her toes when she's standing I would take @Sarah H advice and maybe see if your vet can help you get them knocked back enough to take some pressure off.
> Once they're shorter, Whisp will probably be less fussy about having her feet messed with because the toes themselves won't be as sore.


D'you think this is a vet job?








Shes absolutely fine with the nail grinder and the odd treat, so hopefully if a vet can clip them I can just maintain their shortness.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

If she is fine with the grinder @Beth78 - just grind them shorter. Some of murphy's were pretty long but the grinder is pretty effective if you kind of rotate your hand in a back and forth arch as you go over the nail top.

I have got murphy's back ones really good over about 3 sessions.

It's trusting your vet too isnt it - im pretty sure my vet would just go right to murph with the clipper and he'd come out set right back.(as in nail clipper terror!)

How sedated are they at the vet @Sarah H - could that work for Tilly?

I think she would need a full knock out. She would fight with all her might.

Is whisp good and chilled at the vet, beth?


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

tabelmabel said:


> If she is fine with the grinder @Beth78 - just grind them shorter. Some of murphy's were pretty long but the grinder is pretty effective if you kind of rotate your hand in a back and forth arch as you go over the nail top.
> 
> I have got murphy's back ones really good over about 3 sessions.
> 
> ...


Yes I grind her nails twice a week, maybe I just need to do it every day as they are still long.

Whisp is ok at the vets, the only trouble she has had was the cut quick which she squealed at the vet for.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> Shes absolutely fine with the nail grinder and the odd treat,


That's great! 
Your other posts on here made me think she wouldn't even let you touch her paws, but if she's fine with the grinder, keep grinding. 
When she stands are the nails off the ground?


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> That's great!
> Your other posts on here made me think she wouldn't even let you touch her paws, but if she's fine with the grinder, keep grinding.
> When she stands are the nails off the ground?


Yeah just about off the ground, looking at her quick on her 1 light nail the claw is about 1mm off the quick so I dont know how much shorter they will actually go.








But will change to daily trimmings and see how we go.
Yeah she will let you do anything with her feet, massage, wash, grind, but once the clippers come out she freaks.

Sorry if I offended you back there by the way, I haven't and wont read it back but think I was in a "weird" mood back there.
So yeah, no offense meant.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> But will change to daily trimmings and see how we go.


Sorry to butt in, but thought I'd mention that to get the quick to recede you want to do the nails every 3 or 4 days and you will want to use the alternative cut line https://www.positivedoghusbandry.com/alternative-cut-line


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> Yeah she will let you do anything with her feet, massage, wash, grind, but once the clippers come out she freaks.


Oh okay I totally misunderstood then. It sounded like she wouldn't let you touch her feet which is why I suggested a sedation and knocking them back so you can start fresh.

A lot of dogs don't like clippers. They squeeze even if you keep them very sharp, they can make a loud noise, and they're really just not as comfortable as a grinder. I've spent years telling people who's dogs hate clippers to try a dremel and they think I'm crazy because surely if the dog hates the clippers they'll really hate the dremel but IME, that's usually not the case. I think the dremel can actually feel good if you stabilize the toe enough, kind of like a gentle stimulation, get the blood flowing.

Anyway, yes, I would put the clippers away and just use the grinder with her. 
To help the quick recede more, try grinding them at an angle. I've tried to mark on your photo, I hope it makes sense. 
All the white nail shell on the underside can go, grind that all off. Then on the top you can angle it a little too, but if you get that bottom stuff off, it will help the quick recede, and the next time you can knock more off. 









I wouldn't grind her nails every day, give them at least 3 days between grinding for that quick to move back. You'll know she's ready for another session when you look at her nails and see the pulpy part inside the outer shell has dried up some and it makes the shell look like it's longer, knock the shell back again so the pulp is exposed and then wait for the pulp to dry up and recede. The quick is inside the pulpy part so if the pulp is moving back, the quick will too


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

StormyThai said:


> Sorry to butt in, but thought I'd mention that to get the quick to recede you want to do the nails every 3 or 4 days and you will want to use the alternative cut line https://www.positivedoghusbandry.com/alternative-cut-line


Sorry I cant look at the photos as I'm not on facebook


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> Sorry I cant look at the photos as I'm not on facebook


If you google alternative cut line there will be plenty of resources for you to check out


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Sorry to butt in, but thought I'd mention that to get the quick to recede you want to do the nails every 3 or 4 days and you will want to use the alternative cut line


Is that better than daily then to get the blood receding? Im not on facebook either.

Edit - just seen o2s post subsequent to reading yours so i see the 3 to 4 day thing is better, thank you


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Major progress with tilly today. For the first time she was able to lie in her position with her head down and be stroked all over, including right down each leg to all paws!!!

That is massive for her! I cant say she was floppy and jelly like relaxed but i think she was starting to enjoy it! I cant believe how far we have come just in a few days.

Still miles to go of course but that was the best by far just now


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Lols - i think murph is trying to tell me he is ready for that front paw:










Murphs' nose was well out of joint when till cracked what he already finds easy.

So now he has his front foot over mine with his nails proferred ready for grinding!

He always had to go one better than Till. Such a show off!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Success with murphs!! He is silent now on the kitchen floor! It's so weird to see him walking about with no tip tapping at all.

He will feel so much better for that, im sure.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

They look fab @Beth78 , in an older pic somewhere they looked really long, but if they're like that I'd just grind them every few days as suggested (no point doing too often as you won't give the quick time to recede).

@tabelmabel I think it would depend on the dog as to how much sedative they would need? Some might be OK lightly dozing whereas others would need to be knocked out. If you are making progress I'd not worry about it for now, but it's something I'd think about if you think it's going to be an issue.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Thanks @Sarah H - i think tills would need fully knocked out. Im really encouraged by her progress today so who knows, though it seems impossible right now, she might well one day love her nail trims!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

tabelmabel said:


> Thanks @Sarah H - i think tills would need fully knocked out. Im really encouraged by her progress today so who knows, though it seems impossible right now, she might well one day love her nail trims!


None if mine love it! But the for sure will just let me get on with it which is all I want really.
Have you tried a scratch board? Get some sandpaper and attach it to a bit of wood and teach her to file her own nails.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Sarah H said:


> Have you tried a scratch board? Get some sandpaper and attach it to a bit of wood and teach her to file her own nails.


No. (I havent tried anything else) This programme im following is part of my susan garratt recallers. When i signed up for recallers, susan said this full nail trim course would be chucked in as an extra. Anyway, nothing appeared for ages and now it has.

But it's being delivered in small stages so we can all follow along. Susan has made us do 'brownies honour' that we will not try to rush ahead. She is sooooo persuasive, i had my tablet it one hand and im actually doing brownies honour with the other:Hilarious:Hilarious

So it is slow and step by step and i just have 2 things to work on. And it looks like tilly will achieve both. We arent even to go near nails just now. We are to just focus on achieving a dog that is under threshold during handling..

So, let's see if i can achieve any results with tilly . . . . .


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Success with murphs!! He is silent now on the kitchen floor! It's so weird to see him walking about with no tip tapping at all.
> 
> He will feel so much better for that, im sure.


Yay for no clicking! 
It is nice isn't it? I loved the sound of the danes padding about the kitchen, you could hear their pads but never the toes. Bates sometimes gets long enough that I hear a few nails click, but it's a dull sound because his nails are so big. Penny's constant tip tip tip tip as she scavenges about at least isn't annoying, but I'm ready for her nails to be short enough that we don't hear her either.

And I'm interested if you notice any difference in his comfort levels.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> And I'm interested if you notice any difference in his comfort levels


I'm keen to see if it makes a difference too and im very hopeful it will. Because, when murph does walk on tarmac, his back feet do sort of look like he is walking with his feet scrunched up.

I just assumed it was pain from his hips but im thinking more likely the poor lad had really sore toes!!

It has been quite an eye opener for me, this. Both my dogs are out every single day whatever the weather. Never miss a single day and murph does at least at hour off lead. And Tills too - she puts in a good mileage every single day. It just shows that their nails really dont stay short enough with exercise.

How has it taken me 8 years to learn this?!

Out of interest, @O2.0 - does your nail grinder say 'cusfuy' anywhere on it? I got mine through Amazon u.k. and it works fine and looks identical to the picture shown but it came in a plain white box with no brand name. The instructions were written in very poor English. As well as lots of other languages.

And i instantly thought 'fake product' It wasnt expensive and it all works really well. Just interested to know if yours came in a box with the brand name or if it has the brand name anywhere marked on it. I want to know if i have been scammed:Sour


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

tabelmabel said:


> No. (I havent tried anything else) This programme im following is part of my susan garratt recallers. When i signed up for recallers, susan said this full nail trim course would be chucked in as an extra. Anyway, nothing appeared for ages and now it has.
> 
> But it's being delivered in small stages so we can all follow along. Susan has made us do 'brownies honour' that we will not try to rush ahead. She is sooooo persuasive, i had my tablet it one hand and im actually doing brownies honour with the other:Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> ...


Sounds like a great programme. I know she's hot on nails.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Out of interest, @O2.0 - does your nail grinder say 'cusfuy' anywhere on it?


No, it doesn't, came in a plain white box too. 
My only worry is that the battery will die and not charge, that's been my issue with rechargeable electronics from unknown sources. But I'm happily shocked at how well it works on Bates' nails, I definitely did not think it would have enough power for them. I've tried non corded grinders before, and they hit his nails and literally stop spinning LOL. So that it worked and held enough charge to do all 4 feet in one go is a small miracle! 
Penny's nails are so little I could probably use a human file, but the grinder once she accepts it fully will be faster and more comfortable.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I think it will charge ok. Mine arrived with plenty charge in it but i charged it up fully and the blue flashing light did stop flashing and stay on once charged so it must be charging all right.

Have been out with murphs and cant see any difference in his walking pattern as yet - in fact he started out very stiffly but the weather is wet and damp and that really affects him. He loosened up as we got going.

It is funny though not hearing him tapping. Usually i can hear him running up behind me on hard ground, not any more!



Sarah H said:


> Sounds like a great programme. I know she's hot on nails.


Honestly, it has been just what i needed during the lockdown. Mind you, i gelled with Susan straight away. I had never heard of her before my friend with the collies sent me a link to that free Home School the Dog programme during the first lockdown back in March.

My friend knows susan (only online of course!) with her agility stuff. I loved the home school the dog as it really brought easy and great results, as well as giving me things to work on each day.

I dont find Susan in the least bit irritating. I absolutely love her motivation, enthusisam and drive. I like how she explains things so well, everything really is perfect for what i need. For someone like me who wasnt at all taken with online dog training at all, i have had a complete turn around all because of susan!

I have learned more through her than my actual classes, im sure. The course is vast. That is my only negative about it. If i could match susan's drive and energy, it would be nice! There is a full library section in it as well as lots of mini courses.

She has everything covered - even a pep talk on how to get yourself motivated when you're not motivated!

Before i bought the recallers course, i searched around online for negative course reviews and was instantly suspicious when i couldnt find any. I found a couple of negative comments about susan herself but really no negative reviews of the course. But no wonder; it is brilliant!

Im glad i went ahead with it. In fact, i wouldnt be at all surprised if i stay in recallers for another year.

I dont think there is anything earth shatteringly new in there. Im probably the perfect target audience for a course like that as i love training, and can implement things well enough to see progress with Tilly but i still need a helping hand every day lol

Tilly responds well enough to show the methods work - but she always keeps me on my toes enough to shatter my confidence on a regular basis!!

So someone like susan who beams into my home like the guiding light of wisdom is exactly the person i need in my life at all times i think!!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm the opposite and don't gel with her at all! It doesn't help that in the back of my mind I always have the comments about her that my very good friend made when she attended one of her workshops. Let's just say it wasn't a great experience...so she isn't my favourite go-to trainer! I don't hate her or anything, she's just not quite my style and although I like her work I don't like her way of teaching or personality.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I like a lot of SG's stuff, her blogs are very informative, but she's a little too "this way is the only way" for me. 
But I definitely identify with her obsession with nails. 
I can't remember when I started my own nail obsession, but I do remember knocking back my old man's nails and seeing how much better he was, that was late 90's maybe? But I've been obsessed ever since. 
I've let Bates' nails get too long at times and I feel awful about it, particularly when I get them back down and he's a thousand times better on the very next walk. 

Penny's nails are well of the ground and there are definitely no mobility issues there either, but she does click on the floor. 
I'm not sure how short I want to go with her, she climbs trees and digs to China looking for rodents. I'll just have to see how things go.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Sarah H said:


> It doesn't help that in the back of my mind I always have the comments about her that my very good friend made when she attended one of her workshops.


I can well believe it - i came across some talk on a forum where someone overheard her mean spirited comments about a fellow agility competitor. I dont think she suffers fools gladly and i think she would be very intimidating irl.

She scares me enough online tbh! Apart from having me do brownies honour, she made me jump out of my skin once when she looked into her lens and called my name!!!

Omg i thought i had accidently stumbled into a live chat!! (I hadn't, someone else same name)

But, for someone like me whose attention to detail is poor, the brilliant thing about susan is how she tightens up all those little details in the mechanics which i would never ever notice on my own. And i am the sort of person that likes a no nonsense direct approach.

Also, the way i have my two in the house was already aligned with susan's methods. My dogs were already sorted with place training, crate training, waiting politely to be fed and all that stuff. The basics were well established but susan's stuff really helped me push all those skills further.

I do really like her - and Tilly definitely does!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Yes she's very straight talking and to the point, which I can see works for some people, but she's probably a bit intimidating for me!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> but she's a little too "this way is the only way" for me.


Im very much like this myself:Hilarious

She probably has a total belief that her way is the best. And i can totally identify with that feeling


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

My dremel arrived earlier in the week.
Have had it on, and attracted a cat who wanted to stick her face on it!, and Tilly didn't bat an eye.
Moved it back and forth on her nails without it on and she didn't care although she does get bored easily and I'll probably find she wanders off a lot.
She also didn't care with me 'pinching' each toe.
Now I just need to work up the courage to use it! People make it look so easy.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Arny said:


> Now I just need to work up the courage to use it! People make it look so easy


If your Tilly is co operative already, you're there! It is super simple to use. Just hold it against each nail. I did a kind of moving arc motion over each nail tip. You will be surprised how easy it is!

Good luck


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

tabelmabel said:


> If your Tilly is co operative already, you're there! It is super simple to use. Just hold it against each nail. I did a kind of moving arc motion over each nail tip. You will be surprised how easy it is!
> 
> Good luck


Thank you
You've certainly given me the motivation to try.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I will try to get a video up at some point this weekend. 
I'm off to do some kids/dogs stuff, then I'll be gone all day tomorrow but maybe Sunday I can get something going. 
Bates is so cooperative, and now that I have a quiet dremel I can talk and explain while dremeling


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> I will try to get a video up at some point this weekend.


Ooh that sounds good It's like PF nail club on here now with resident expert in situ! How wonderful!


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

That'd be great, thank you.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Okay, hopefully this isn't too terrible of a video and it makes some sense!


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks - that’s really helpful. He is such a patient lad.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

What a masterclass! Very helpful, thank you. Loving Bates' facial expressions - classic:Hilarious

His nails look identical to murphs' as they are black too so that was useful to see what will happen around the black pulp part in a few days. I have kept the guard on my grinder for now.

Murphs isnt anything like as relaxed as Bates but, compared to Tills, he is positively zen-like.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Loving Bates' facial expressions - classic:Hilarious


I love that the thumbnail ended up being him giving me the side-eye :Hilarious

Glad it was helpful!


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

I haven't properly read all of this thread, just sort of skimmed it. So just replying to various comments that particularly stood out to me rather than quoting specific people.

1) Like @tabelmabel I dremel my piggy nails, and they're farrrrrr easier than dog nails, even black piggy nails. But this is partly due to how they grow - there's is some shaping on the underneath of the nail that grows over the bottom when overgrown, much like the cleats of goats/sheep/cows. So you can flatten that off first, and then that gives you the angles to show where the quick will be in the remaining triangle shape - again exactly how you'd trim ruminants and pigs. Dogs do not come with this hack! I use the rotary tool of the design @O2.0 linked to, because the dimensions/ size is small enough to be flexible enough with the smaller scale. There's a tonne of brands that make them to the same design.

2) Someone said you need to do little and often to get the quick to back up, stating every 3-4 days. I would add to this that this time interval is very dependent on dogs, as I have to do Cad's every other day to get the quick to recede as every 3 days is too long an interval. My advice if you're doing a dremel or scratchboard would be to start at every day, and then when you've caught up with the quick and nail growth after a few days of this and each day you're taking basically nothing off, drop it to every 2 days. And then again drop it to every 3 etc. This method will allow you to find the perfect interval for your individual dog. If you're using clippers you can do this if you're experienced, but the risk of accidentally quicking before you figure out the interval is higher. It can really help if the 'off' days when you're not doing nails, if you still do foot handling stuff and pretend nail clipping.

3) Dogs are better at wearing down their own back nails than their fronts. Because each stride of when they run they're pushing off with their back feet. I like to use the analogy of pushing off from the wall in a swimming pool. Obviously if your dog is only running on mud this won't do much due to how soft it is, but any sort of dry/ hard surface will help friction-wise. So when you're figuring out the intervals of how frequently you need to go, you gotta treat the front feet as one thing and the back feet as another. It's unlikely that there'll be the same interval for getting the quick to back up for both pairs.

4a) People with fluffy dogs where the dogs nails are only barely longer than the fluff, it can be a good idea to desensitise your dog to having one of those nets you get citrus fruit in over their paw. This sort of works like a hairnet and pulls most of the hair back giving you better sight lines and ensuring that slippery hair doesn't knock your angles off.
4b) People with WH dogs may be better off trimming the toehair, as the wireyness of the hair shaft doesn't always get pulled back from the nail with the net hack. This hack was shared with me by the owner of a WH PRT who I now go to for all my Cad grooming questions! I've found that I only really need to trim Cad's toehair while I'm actively backing the quick past the end of the hair length - once it's got a bit shorter I can let it grow and it doesn't impede, cos the end of both hair and nails is staggered again. I use blunted thread snips for Cad, as only having to press to have the blades meet and then they automatically open again is much easier for me.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Thanks for that great post, Torin. So many great tips on there I'm going to be an oracle on nails before Tilly lets me near hers:Hilarious

I dont dremmel my pig's nails (yes, that is still pig singular; i'm having a heck of a job with bondings)

I use human nail clippers. What is so easy with pigs though is that they dont struggle against it - pick them up, position and snip snap snip!

Going to try Belle with a 5week old later today @Torin. This will be her final chance at a proper friend.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Torin. said:


> I would add to this that this time interval is very dependent on dogs,


In the video I posted and my post to @Beth78 where I tried to show the alternate cut line, I mention that you can tell if the nails are ready for another trim by feeling for outer shell part of the nail to be longer than the center pulpy part. Penny's nails are to small for me to actually see the difference, but I can feel it. 
When you first dremel and smooth the nail bottoms off, it will be level. Feel the nail every day and when you can tell that the inner pulpy part has receded, you can dremel again.

Of course this system only works if you're really smoothing the bottoms, rounding out the sides, and knocking the top off. I think of it like sharpening a pencil with a knife. You file the wood parts away at an angle so you can get that inner part sticking out. Obviously you're not going to sharpen nails to a sharp tip, but you do want to file away at the sides to get the pulp sticking out enough to encourage it to dry up and back up in to the nail.

This photo really shows the nail anatomy well.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Murphs' aren't showing any shell bit yet, i dont think?










Do you think they are ready for another go? These are the front ones and he is a bit more resistant to the front ones being done. In fact he was a bit suspicious of me taking this pic!

Done a decent job on my own nails, though maybe some hand cream could be in order!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

The part I've circled in red is the pulp, the shell is the part I've marked in purple,
Oops, hit reply too soon.

Okay, the top purple part you can knock a whole lot back on that. See how big that area is? You can dremel that all day long and he won't feel it, it's all dead 'shell' nail. 
See how it looks like all that purple part wraps around a center darker part? That's the shell. That's the part you can round out so that the middle darker part is more exposed. 
Then the bottom in blue, level that off as well. That's where you will feel the 'shell' push out in a few days, but you have to level it first.

You're no where near his quick, that center pulpy part will get more squishy and softer nearer the quick, you'll notice a marked difference in the texture. It's pretty dry and crumbly still so you're still safe


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> In the video I posted and my post to @Beth78


I've said it before on here, but I don't find videos without transcripts super accessible, so I didn't watch it when skimming the thread. I judge it on visuals though - you don't need to see the details because there's a light refraction change. Shiny (shell) vs matt (nail pulp)? More obvious in bright daylight than electric lighting.



tabelmabel said:


> Thanks for that great post, Torin. So many great tips on there I'm going to be an oracle on nails before Tilly lets me near hers:Hilarious
> 
> I dont dremmel my pig's nails (yes, that is still pig singular; i'm having a heck of a job with bondings)
> 
> ...


So with pig nails, those which are done with clippers are going to be relatively overgrown compared to those done with the dremel, as you just can't get close enough in to the quick to get it to back up effectively. Since it sounds like you already have the pig suitable dremel I really would have a go - it'll help you with your dog skills. Their nail 'shell' is much thinner compared to dogs and the change in texture and light refraction makes it super obvious. I can PM you some videos if it'd help?
Also oh no to the lack of bonding!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Great thanks @O2.0


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Torin. said:


> Since it sounds like you already have the pig suitable dremel I really would have a go - it'll help you with your dog skills.


I dont think i do have the pig suitable dremmel do i? I have the same as o2 - the cusfuy one.

But i do have a very friendly and handlable pig. She is friendly to humans, just other pigs she isnt keen on!

Yes pls to any helpful vids you can pm would be great thanks @Torin.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

tabelmabel said:


> I dont think i do have the pig suitable dremmel do i? I have the same as o2 - the cusfuy one.
> 
> But i do have a very friendly and handlable pig. She is friendly to humans, just other pigs she isnt keen on!
> 
> Yes pls to any helpful vids you can pm would be great thanks @Torin.


That rotary tool is the one I use for my pigs! Not that exact brand but there's about 28934872 versions of the same thing - they're all knockoffs of each other. It doesn't do jack for Cad's nails as his are hard as concrete so needs a more heavy duty rotary tool and head, but being physically smaller it's perfect for piggies. I'll take a video next time I do Hendra's (Perran doesn't enjoy handling and will probably shriek).


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh that's great thanks

Only a thread started by me could go so off topic it switches from dogs to guinea pigs:Hilarious


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

@O2.0 actually I have a question. Do you use the rotary tool on Penny yet? If so how the flip do you do the sides of the nail? I find it really tricky given how small everything is and so how close all the other nails are.
(Cad does his with a scratchboard, but then I help out extra with the 2 inside nails as he doesn't put even pressure on)



tabelmabel said:


> Only a thread started by me could go so off topic it switches from dogs to guinea pigs:Hilarious


To be fair, you mentioned pigs in your 2nd reply right back on page 1


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Torin. said:


> To be fair, you mentioned pigs in your 2nd reply right back on page 1


I did, for sure. Im very good at expanding out threads to incorporate all kinds of topics.

Look in later and i will likely have a video of a piggy bonding session on here

Who knows what route the thread could take:Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Torin. said:


> Do you use the rotary tool on Penny yet? If so how the flip do you do the sides of the nail?


Penny's not ready for a full pedicure with the grinder yet, I can just do a quick no-fuss grind on one or two nails.

But in answer to your question, you can move the toes out of the way. It takes some practice, and a cooperative dog, so like you say, lots of foot handling helps. 
Penny is fine with me moving her toes around, so what I'll do when she's ready is move the toe I'm working on either above, or below the others and work from there. 
I also take the whole cap off on the grinder, it just gives you more room to get in there and move it around to the angles you need. 
You can see in these photos, the toe I've pushed down I can reach all around it without touching the other toes.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Penny's not ready for a full pedicure with the grinder yet, I can just do a quick no-fuss grind on one or two nails.
> 
> But in answer to your question, you can move the toes out of the way. It takes some practice, and a cooperative dog, so like you say, lots of foot handling helps.
> Penny is fine with me moving her toes around, so what I'll do when she's ready is move the toe I'm working on either above, or below the others and work from there.
> ...


Oooh pushing up and down! I've been trying wiggling side to side, but never thought of up or down! I will try that next time, thank you


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Yay I did Tilly's nails!
She was licking her leg and I started and she didn't even notice. I did a couple but she then got up so we just did it where someone was handing out treats to keep her staying.
As she could do with a lot taking off she needed to wait for much longer than just maintaining.
Could still do with a lot going but for a first day I'm very pleased and already noticed a difference to nail scraping when on our walk.

Need more practice with trying to do the alternative cut as I found that tricky, I don't know if its because I have the guard on so you can't just move the dremel freely as it needs to be in a specific place.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Forgot to say really useful video @O2.0 . It helped to see exactly what I was looking at/should be looking for.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Yay @Arny !!!
Will be interesting to see if Tilly seems more comfortable with shorter nails.

I would definitely take the cap off, there's really no need for it that I can tell. 
I've taken a still from the video and you can see how close I have it to my own fingers, I've yet to lose one 
But seriously I don't even get the point of the cap other than to make the human feel less worried. So if you've already done her nails and she's fine, get rid of the cap


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Think i will get shot of the guard too. I cant see the point of it. I will have a go at murphs' nails tomorrow hopefully.

It has been all piggy focused today. I cant say it is looking 100% a match made in heaven for Belle and little baby black. Sepa
rating tonight as dont want a dead baby tomorrow.

Baby is just 5 weeks. Belle is the big piggy giving me headaches at the moment. We havent named baby yet as she might need to go back. Will know tomorrow if it can work or not.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

The pigs seem to have successfully bonded @Torin.  Yay!!! Attempt number 5.

Great to have piggy chit chat back again. Belle has been very silent since mike died.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

@tabelmabel which grinder did you end up buying ?

Was it a good buy ?

I have a Wahl grinder but the sanding rings wear down too quickly and it stops with the slightest bit of pressure despite changing batteries.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Casfuy-Dog-Nail-Grinder-Light/dp/B08CDT1YMZ

This one @Beth78 - identical to o2's. Yes, im pleased with it but i have only done a small amount of grinding on murphs' nails so far. There is a replacement barrel for it available on amazon too.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Well someone let me dremel 3.5 nails last night while licking some peanut butter. 
Yay for progress!

Can you tell which foot she let me dremel?


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Got some more off murphs' last night but he will insist on standing up which would be fine if he kept his foot still. Same peanut butter trick here though he seems to hold better for a hotdog sausage.

Will give it another shot tonight.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Got two more toes on Penny tonight and working on getting Bates' down a little more.

This is a great visual that shows what long nails do to the foot structure:









And this is my litmus test for how Bates feet feel. He starts getting reluctant to cross the stream here when I let his nails get too long. He worries about balance and footing. If you zoom in, you can see the structure of his foot even with weight on it, his toe joints are fully bent and he can use his paw pads to help him 'feel' when he is and balance better. 
This is why it's so important to keep those nails nice and short for the old guys, it makes a huge difference in their mobility


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Yes, it is very concerning to me how long nails affect the gait of the dog. Murphs was not in a particularly co operative mood tonight so only managed to get the back ones of one foot down a bit more.

He was, however, very tolerant to having a matt broken down and removed from over his hip so that was some progress at least. He's actually very good with grooming generally but he likes the same areas done over and over - and other parts he is not so keen on.

He is booked for the groomer in April so it is imperative i get him entirely mat free by then and keep him clear. I think there is just one more tangly bit in his collar area.

I might ask the groomer to take his foot hair back short so i can keep at the nails.

To think i was all worried about plucking his ear hair! That has turned out to be a piece of cake.

Not much happening with tilly. Well, not quite true as i have been able to handle her paws a bit actually. But she is like a coiled spring. 

I wish i'd known all this nail stuff 8 yrs ago when murph was a pup and i do hope some people with young pups join this nail club thread and get their pups started early.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

The more people the better! 
And even if you don't start with a puppy, it's still totally doable (and worthwhile) to get your dog comfortable with paw handling and nail trims, particularly since that dog is going to get old one day and will benefit even more from being okay with paw handling and nail trims. 

Bates didn't come to us as a puppy and learned to be fine with feet. And Penny is quickly getting there too. I'm with SG in that you really can teach ALL dogs to be okay with having their feet worked on no matter when you start. 

My rehab vet also taught me to stretch and massage their toes. Most learn to really like this. Like a foot massage


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I think the hardest part for me with Tilly is going to be patience. Her nails seem to be clacking ever louder all the time now because my focus is on them! Really, i just want to anchor her down and hack the whole lot right off

But i know i cant rush her or i will totally blow all the trust built up so far.

I have skipped all the prelim stages with murph, although he is very used to having his coat combed right through to the root and he seems to enjoy it unless i hit a mat. He is really patient at having various plant life picked out of his woolly undercoat.

I have just basically grabbed his foot and had someone hold some peanut butter at his mouth and gone for it!

Some sessions he has been pretty good and he is definitely really cool about his feet being handled. I have done the same stuff with him as with tilly with getting him used to the sound of the dremmel and he seems chilled with the sound.

But when he is lying down and the dremmel goes on, he is on his feet quick smart!

And i just have not had the patience to train him to lie there and relax with the dremel going.

SG would not be happy at all with my manhandling of murphles but i am going the gentle slow way with tills. Will be interesting to see if, in the end, Till gets properly comfortable with it more quickly than murph.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I've done a bit of both with Penny. 

The first time we clipped her nails, I held her, OH clipped one nail, we threw a party lots of treats, and called it a day. 
Next time we did two nails. She didn't like it but again, party party, right afterwards and she was fine. 
In between I do lots of paw handling which she is totally fine with. 
She now lets me hold her and OH gets all 4 feet with the clippers. She doesn't love it, but she tolerates it. 

With the dremel I've been more methodical. Dremel on, mark and treat. Dremel on grab a foot, mark and reward. Dremel on, grab a foot, move dremel to the foot, mark and reward. Slow progressions like that, then backing off in between progressions so it's not always harder and she can feel successful. 
In between the methodical desensitization, I also just put down a licky mat of peanut butter and have knocked out a few toes. She doesn't like it, and I make sure to stop before pushing her too far. But also as soon as I stop, the peanut butter goes away. I also make sure I'm not restraining her, that does help move things along a lot faster IME. 

Basically there's several approaches:
My dog doesn't like this so I don't do it. 
My dog doesn't like this but I make him do it.
My dog doesn't like this and I'm going to teach him to like it. 
And the classic, my dog doesn't like this, wait, what was that? Yay! You're done!

Other than not doing it at all, I tend to use each approach as needed. 
I think there's room in a healthy dog-human relationship for a certain element of "I know this isn't fun but you have to" 
I prefer not to use this approach if avoidable, but truly sometimes you just have to suck it up. 

I'm generally an impatient sort, so distraction and getting on with whatever needs to be done is my preferred approach for a lot of things. Like, Bates gets a monthly shot for his knees, he doesn't like it, but it's a minor thing to him and really not worth doing a whole desensitization protocol when I can give him a handful of treats and have his shot done before he even fully figures out what I'm doing.

But nails and basic grooming and handling are worth taking the time to desensitize properly and counter condition in to actually enjoying the process because you can't do it in 10 seconds before the dog notices what has happened and you will have to do it for the life of the dog.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Im sure i do use a variety of approaches too, but tend towards the " my dog doesnt like it but has to do it"

Probably not with murphy actually, not so much. There is a give and take there as i know his nature is generally stoic and he really does have a lot of pain in his hips at times (the vet said that) 

I also know he will put up with a lot but when he has had enough, he has ways of telling me that really is him at his limit.(i.e he really could give me a very nasty warning bite im sure)

With his nails, he is mainly just pulling his foot away so i carry on. I tend to know when he is building up into a dangerous rage position and know him well enough not to push him over the limit.


Tilly is the biggest drama queen going. She hates both her harness and her equafeece. I have done no conditioning at all. I just stick them on and away we go. She is very gentle. I cannot imagine her snapping, growling or biting me. Her position is always a flight one.

So it is very easy to secure her and just stick the harness on (once on, she seems fine in it) but she is far too wriggly to have any of her feet secured tight.

I will have to be very slow and patient indeed. She has always been like that. I remember the first time i put a lead on her as a puppy. I attached it and let her free to get used to the feel of it and she went off like a cat on hot coals, a real bucking bronco!


I must admit to being a tad jel towards you, Arny and everyone else on here that is sailing through this!

There must be someone else here with another dog like my Tills


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Lily prefers standing like a horse being shod? (not sure if that's a word) while I cut her nails - I don't mind because it gives me a great view of the underside of her nail.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ShibaPup said:


> Lily prefers standing like a horse being shod? (not sure if that's a word) while I cut her nails - I don't mind because it gives me a great view of the underside of her nail.


My danes preferred this too, and it was fine, I just sat there and put their foot on my leg 

@tabelmabel if the dog is constantly pulling their foot away, let them. It seems like it would make the pulling worse, but letting go eliminates 50% of the battle. Imagine playing tug. If you pull, they pull harder and it increases the pulling effort. But if you drop the tug, there's nothing to pull against. So when they pull away, don't grip harder and pull back, just let go. Then wait a beat (about 3 seconds), take the foot again. 
This is also part of consensual handling, ultimately, if they know they *can* pull away and you'll stop, it actually makes the pulling away happen less. 
If you watch the video with Bates, you'll notice every time he pulls away I let go of his foot completely, and just take it again.

The other thing is, depending on how reliable a helper you have, you can try timing the licky mat to only appear when the foot is in your hand, and as soon as the foot pulls away, the licky mat goes away too. They actually do figure this out.
Also, try not to pull the foot towards you, but work on the foot where they have it.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

We might join in here if it's ok with @tabelmabel 
I have a new grinder turning up today (thanks @O2.0 for spotting this one, £20 for a replacement really can't be sniffed at lol) so will be cracking on with getting my old boys nails back in shape.
I had really slacked off over lockdown and although they don't touch the floor, they are much too long for him to be comfortable so a spa day is in our future


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Honestly, no one needs to ask permission to join "nail club"

Everyone is welcome - as long as it can remain supportive and friendly

As it is "my" thread, rules are as follows:


1) Everyone welcome

2) supportive and friendly only comments.

3) Not too much showing off about how wonderful your own dogs are

4) Helpful demonstations are welcome though

5) Remember we are all at different stages and however long it takes each one of us to progress is not up for judgement. We are all trying our best.




Hopefully more and more will join in and the dogs will reap the benefits of shorter nails


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

ShibaPup said:


> Lily prefers standing like a horse being shod? (not sure if that's a word) while I cut her nails - I don't mind because it gives me a great view of the underside of her nail.


If there's 2 of us at work doing a dog then (unless it's a very small dog) we do it like this. One with the head end with food and the other doing the clipping. You get a good view of the nails this way.
I tend to do Nooka's back feet like this with someone on treat duty and me doing her feet.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> The other thing is, depending on how reliable a helper you have, you can try timing the licky mat to only appear when the foot is in your hand, and as soon as the foot pulls away, the licky mat goes away too. They actually do figure this out.
> Also, try not to pull the foot towards you, but work on the foot where they have it.


Yes, we are doing all this. I think we are doing a pretty good job, between us. My daughter and I are a better team than OH and I. Murph is more relaxed with us girls


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Got abit carried away just now and cut the quick with the grinder, she didn't react so hopefully theres no discomfort.








Will call it a day I think.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

That's great though to have got the nail so short I will be delighted when Murph gives me a drop or two of blood


Excellent job!


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

My sister just said cornflour or teabags can be used to stop bleeding, something about tannins. I don't think theres enough blood for that though


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> New My sister just said cornflour or teabags can be used to stop bleeding, something about tannins.


I can confirm the flour part - that is what i use on my pigs. Never heard of the teabag thing.

You can buy styptic powder but flour seems to do just a good a job.

Maybe @O2.0 knows if styptic powder does contain something to actively stop bleeding.

Or if flour is just as good?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> she didn't react so hopefully theres no discomfort.


Isn't it crazy? They don't even notice, and it barely bleeds. Entirely different than cutting the quick with clipper. Though in fairness, if you're taking off small shavings with the clippers they don't tend to notice a slight quick there either. 
I'd leave that front area alone, but in two days or so, you can knock more back off the top of that nail. Gosh her quicks are long aren't they?

I wouldn't bother with anything honestly. I bet it stopped bleeding shortly after you took the photo  
The times I've quicked with a dremel I simply push my own finger pad on to the nail for a few seconds and it's done.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> Isn't it crazy? They don't even notice, and it barely bleeds. Entirely different than cutting the quick with clipper. Though in fairness, if you're taking off small shavings with the clippers they don't tend to notice a slight quick there either.
> I'd leave that front area alone, but in two days or so, you can knock more back off the top of that nail. Gosh her quicks are long aren't they?
> 
> I wouldn't bother with anything honestly. I bet it stopped bleeding shortly after you took the photo
> The times I've quicked with a dremel I simply push my own finger pad on to the nail for a few seconds and it's done.


Yes she does have long quicks, hopefully they will gradually recede.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

https://bigdogmom.com/dog-nail-bleeding/

This is a useful and interesting link that explains what styptic powder is made from.

It contains an anti bleed agent that constricts blood vessels plus an antiseptic.

So flour isnt quite the same after all:Hilarious

Hopefully none of us will need it, but i was curious to know what exactly you got for your money.

It also says sticking the bleeding nail in a bar of soap can be used to stem bleeding too.

No mention of the teabag trick though @Beth78 . ..


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2021)

Alright I need to join nail club. I bought a dremel probably 5 years ago and have been too scared to ever use it! This is what I have - how do I know which attachment to use? I have absolutely no clue how it works.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Great to see you here @McKenzie - yours is a question @O2.0 will be able to answer.

I will hazard a guess that your top box, biggar compartment the grinder looks to be second from right with the long metal spike thing. That should push in.

Have a google of "Casfuy pet nail grinder" though as this is what we are all using. It is quieter than your dremmel there and only 20 quid in uk.

You can see a link to it further back in the thread (both o2 and i posted links) to see what it looks like.

It is not an essential though for nail club - welcome aboard


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

McKenzie said:


> Alright I need to join nail club. I bought a dremel probably 5 years ago and have been too scared to ever use it! This is what I have - how do I know which attachment to use? I have absolutely no clue how it works.
> 
> View attachment 464587


Welcome to nail club !

That looks like a super grinder you have there. They are very easy to use and safer than using clippers. 
Your gigs may need abit of desensitization, especially if it's abit noisy.
But just put gentle pressure on the claw with the grinder and it gradually wears down.
I did accidentally grind Whisp's quick yesterday but it just resulted in one spot of blood and she didn't even notice.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm just here have a stamp of my feet because my grinder should have turned up yesterday but due to it being sent to the wrong carrier I am sat here waiting for it today :Stop


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh no @StormyThai - hope you're wearing sturdy shoes; cant have you breaking a nail with your foot stamping:Hilarious


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

My nails are perfectly trimmed I'll have you know :Shifty:Shifty



:Mooning:Hilarious:Hilarious


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

McKenzie said:


> Alright I need to join nail club. I bought a dremel probably 5 years ago and have been too scared to ever use it! This is what I have - how do I know which attachment to use? I have absolutely no clue how it works.
> 
> View attachment 464587


Welcome  
Use the sandpaper attachment, but be careful as it will heat up the nail, don't hold it to the nail longer than 2 or 3 seconds without giving the dog a break. They do heat up pretty quickly. You can feel the nail itself and you'll notice and get a better idea of how long and what pressure you can hold on the nail before it gets hot. 
Stay away from the stone attachments, they don't take much nail off and they get even hotter than the sand paper!

If you become a dremel convert and the dogs love it, they make a diamond tip attachment for dremel (which doesn't get hot) but it might be cheaper to just buy a whole new grinder. 
But dremel will work fine. I used the sandpaper attachment for years. I did have to switch out to new sandpaper pretty often (great danes) but you may not have to with more normal sized dogs 

See what Kenzie and Elliot think once you attach the tip and turn it on. Then go from there. They may be fine with a lickimat and not even need a whole lot of desensitization. Most dogs are fine once they realize the noise and vibration are no big deal. The biggest thing is getting the dogs used to having the paw held fairly firmly (to minimize vibration) and having the toes moved around to get the dremel on just one toe. You may want to practice moving toes and holding feet without the dremel first.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

McKenzie said:


> Alright I need to join nail club. I bought a dremel probably 5 years ago and have been too scared to ever use it!


I was scared about using it, not even sure of what but maybe that I'd take a whole toe off just with one touch or something.
Its really easy to use and I'm pretty sure I touched Tilly's pad briefly and she didn't notice (and didn't do anything to it).


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Yay! I have drawn blood murph very co perative on the back feet nails. Didnt need a helper.

Still very protective of his front feet so will have a go another day. He did well today!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

LOL just to be clear the point is to NOT draw blood! 

You can get those quicks back without bloodshed! Alternate cut line folks, wait for the pulp to recede and then knock the shell back. No blood!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> New LOL just to be clear the point is to NOT draw blood!


Ha ha! There will be no raining on my parade today, thank you

It was like striking gold, i can tell ya! Only on one nail so far; I will continuing my search for drops of the red stuff in the days to come lol:Hilarious

In all seriousness, i know it's not the aim, but it still feels pretty good all the same

Murph didnt mind and it is just the one nail. So far!


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Got the new grinder yesterday its powerful isn't it, unfortunately Whisp is very suspicious of it so a bit of desensitization is in order.

Will probably keep to the lower setting for now as the quicks are so close to the end.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Still waiting for my sodding grinder....
They sent it to the wrong carrier (apparently it was my fault for having the wrong address, lets forget about the fact that I have had the same address since I first started my Amazon account and all other deliveries have got here perfectly fine) so now I have had to reschedule the delivery for tomorrow...not happy tbh and I think the seller will receive some choice feedback!


So I'm still here stamping my feet because I want to crack on ummy


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Still waiting for my sodding grinder....


How annoying! Is that the casfuy one from amazon? Did you follow o2s link and buy it from amazon state side or something

My link was the fast uk delivery option

I'm going great guns on murphs' nails now. He was pretty patient with the front ones last night. But they still could go much shorter . . .and they will!

Tilly is still stuck at stage one learning to relax in game on position and susan's team has asked for a vid of miss coiled spring to see if they can give me any tips to help.

She isnt scared of the sight of the grinder. That isnt the problem. She just finds relaxing in general a no go. She will hold the position for a few seconds but then she has to wriggle on her back or let out some sound of frustration which says 'im done here, can we crack on with something more interesting please!'

Be interesting to see what they suggest.

@Beth78 - i think murphs' bloodline is very long, like whisp's. The nail that bled isnt even that short. Thank goodness he warned me off using the clippers; he'd have sprung 4 little blood fountains from each paw had i made the cut where i wanted to!

I havent even found the dew claws yet - nested in all his hair somewhere!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

tabelmabel said:


> How annoying! Is that the casfuy one from amazon? Did you follow o2s link and buy it from amazon state side or something


Don't laugh but I nearly did until I spotted the $ sign :Bag
I ordered this one in the end https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08CDT1YMZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and I have prime :Muted

If it doesn't turn up on Tuesday then I'm going to cancel and find another seller...I really want this grinder or I'd just give up tbh


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

That is the exact same one i got and it turned up no problem so hopefully it should arrive.

I nearly bought it off the American site too as susan garratt's link led me there but i soon found the same one at amazon uk.

Susan garatt recommends this casfuy one as it is quiet but she herself uses a dremel branded dremmel too so maybe something like mckenzie's might be better for Thai - i cant imagine he is going to kick up a fuss like murphs and Tills:Hilarious


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Can I join? 

Just ordered the one most people recommend on here. Coming tomorrow.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> Just ordered the one most people recommend on here. Coming tomorrow.


Crikey, dont tell stormy that; her blood pressure might well rise to boiling and shatter all her nails!

Yes, of course you can join

It would be great if _everyone_ on pf with a dog joined nail club as it is an important thing for us all - from those with dogs who have perfect nails to show off to those at hurdle number one like my Tilly. Not yet ready to try.

We will all get there in the end.

Look at her - she looks asleep here doesnt she?! But she isnt. She can spring up in a nano second.










So, bottom of nail club class is Tills here. May everyone be inspired to join by her total lack of co operation


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

tabelmabel said:


> Crikey, dont tell stormy that; her blood pressure might well rise to boiling and shatter all her nails!
> 
> Yes, of course you can join
> 
> ...


Yay! Thank you. 

@StormyThai , if it's any consolation at all, I had a telephone call this morning from an automated American woman, "thanking" me for the £300 purchase of an iPhone 7. "Press 1 if you didn't make the purchase."

The fact that I've never, ever known Amazon to phone me up at all, least of all to "thank" me for a purchase, that I don't have £300 for an overpriced phone, and the fact that they don't have my landline number is beside the point, of course. 

I hung up.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> Will probably keep to the lower setting for now as the quicks are so close to the end.


Play around with the settings, the higher one is noisier, yes, but Whisp may like it better as it will vibrate less. Just see what she prefers. 
Were you able to flatten out the bottoms? That will help the quick recede too.



tabelmabel said:


> Be interesting to see what they suggest.


 I'll be interested to hear too!



StormyThai said:


> If it doesn't turn up on Tuesday then I'm going to cancel and find another seller...I really want this grinder or I'd just give up tbh


 Got my fingers and toes crossed for you! 

Little dog problems, I did a lot of training with Penny this weekend with freeze dried beef liver which resulted in some pretty rank gas and I didn't want to tempt fate with peanut butter on top of that, so thought I'd wait a day LOL :Yuck

I still do lots of paw handling and really getting her used to having her paws manipulated and held firm enough that I can dremel without tickling. She's totally fine with all that thank goodness.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> I still do lots of paw handling and really getting her used to having her paws manipulated and held firm enough that I can dremel without tickling. She's totally fine with all that thank goodness


If if known how tills would be, id have made a point of training paw handling from day one.

I hope many folks with brand new pups see this thread. And join it!

Tills has always been a drama queen. Maybe if i had been more sensitive to her dramatics; she'd trust me more but i usually go in with a no nonsense approach and i think she is very suspicious of my motives. She's not buying it.

I will stick with susan's way whilst im a member of recallers. Otherwise it's the murphy foot hold technique for her.

These nails will come off. I always get my aims met with whatever i set out to do. She has given me the runaround on recall but i will definitely win out on nails.

Might be full vet anaesthetic but the nails will come off. No doubt:Finger


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

tabelmabel said:


> I havent even found the dew claws yet - nested in all his hair somewhere!


The dew claws are fun to do 
Tilly's one foot, 3 more to go!
As you can see I struck gold with the end toe, oops! Gosh they keep bleeding don't they but she didn't notice. Maybe it should be renamed bloodbath club.
Please ignore the gross floor, it never seems to look clean anymore!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Arny said:


> Maybe it should be renamed bloodbath club.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious LOVE IT!!!! That is _funny!!_
_
_
You have done a superb job there well done, both of you!

Dont worry about your floor - mine is hardly pristine


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

Here we are to join in. When the boy arrived 6 months ago, his claws were pretty long - indeed he ripped off both his dew claws within the first couple of months as they were too long and we were not yet at the place I could trim them. We are therefore a bit too click clackety...

And... we’re a little odd. I can clip his nails without much bother, usually whilst he is upside down between my legs asleep on the sofa - just taking a little slice off at a time. Sometimes he wakes and gives me a look, so I give him a treat and back off, but usually he just rolls with it.

But the grinder is a very suspicious beastie and we don’t want that near our paws at all, thank you very much. We have started edging it closer for a treat, and it has made contact a couple of times for a treat and some brave boy points. So it is very much a work in progress with stuffing dog and no impressive photos of claws off the grounds just yet...


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Welcome, @Pricivius  yay! That is 2 new members of nail club in one day!

If your boy is ok with clippers, you might like to stick with them - a good result can still be achieved if you are able to clip reguarly enough and there are pros and cons of both the dremmel and the clippers.

Ideally of course, your dog will be totally comfortable with both!

Advantages of the nail grinder are that you are less likely to cause pain if you hit the quick. And that you are less likely to hit the quick (although in this nail club we seem to be hitting the quick with incredible accuracy!)

And getting the bloodline to recede further than it would with clippers.

O2 posted a vid earlier in this thread showing how she gets a dog used to the dremmel.

Im at an earlier stage with my Tilly in that i have successfully built up a positive association with the sight and sound of the dremmel for her. But now we are stuck as she is not ready to have my hand near her foot, let alone a dremmel.

However, o2's vid is a great demo and should help you to condition your boy to the nail grinder - if that is what you want to do.

But clippers, grinders, long nails, bleeding nails, messy floors - nail club is an open door to everyone


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

The first rule of nail club is.....you MUST talk about nail club!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Sarah H said:


> The first rule of nail club is.....you MUST talk about nail club!


Ha ha very funny Yes, nail club has to be bigged up as THE club to be in - nail club chat and banter will keep it rockin' and rollin'


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Arny said:


> Tilly's one foot, 3 more to go!


Yay! Looks great!
And welcome @Pricivius !

I did some work on Penny today, thought I would video some of it. 
It's all stuff you all already know, but I thought it would be helpful to see the more "amateur" version vs. the perfect dog in a perfect work with a perfect trainer. 

Penny is not 100% comfortable, I know her tail looks awful but her tail is a drama queen, the rest of her shows a lot more relaxation (body language taken as a whole not just one piece). But we're still making lots of progres. She's all over the dremel vs. the first time I turned it on, she left and didn't come back to investigate!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I will try this tomorrow @O2.0, thank you. Tilly is absolutely fine and relaxed in a sit position like that with the dremmel in my hand, switched on either speed. I can hold it against her back, chest and she has no fear or negative experience with the dremel.

It would be reaching for leg or foot that will see her back off, i'm sure (even without the dremmel in sight)

Havent really got any enlightning answers on how to progress yet on SGs forum. Only that she looks quite relaxed

She really isnt relaxed. She will hold the position as she understands it is what i want from her - but she's itching to get out of it.

You can see here how she wriggles on her back and then shakes off at the end, once back on her feet. Im sure that's her shaking all the tension out of her. What do you think?

And i cant touch her foot at all. She has never had dremel or clippers near her feet - absolutely nothing painful or negative has ever come from a human hand to her feet. She just seems very sensitive to touch.

Anyway, i dont mind doing nail club recruitment and promotion. Appointing you as resident expert. And - can i have my cat back, please

That Beryl cat of mine photo bombs pics and vids the world over! She is a law unto herself, that cat.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> I will try this tomorrow @O2.0, thank you. Tilly is absolutely fine and relaxed in a sit position like that with the dremmel in my hand, switched on either speed. I can hold it against her back, chest and she has no fear or negative experience with the dremel.
> 
> It would be reaching for leg or foot that will see her back off, i'm sure (even without the dremmel in sight)
> 
> ...


She doesn't look that bad, but I see what you mean, no she's not entirely relaxed, but she's not particularly worried either, just doesn't like having to lie still.

You actually did touch her feet a couple of times in passing, did you notice? What does she do if you hold her foot at the wrist? 
Is holding position part of the course? 
I can see the wisdom in teaching them to hold the position, but for a fussy dog who doesn't like their paws messed with or a busy dog who finds holding any position difficult, it can be a big ask, and just that level of difficulty can cause stress.

I switched to completely unrestrained handling (including not even asking for a sit or down) with our semi feral great dane and I see benefits in both systems. Yes, sometimes you have to be still and deal, but for nail trims, I'm okay with the dog choosing the position, the dog getting up and re-setting as needed, and even leaving the session if they decide they're done. Nails take a while and I want the dog to feel like they can get up and change position if they feel they need to.

Penny pops up and down a good bit, moves around, but notice she always comes back to generally sitting there and letting me touch her feet. That's absolutely good enough as far as I'm concerned, and her knowing she can move makes it a lot easier for her to feel successful in the whole game. 
When I do dremel a toe or two, it's still unrestrained. I have a helper hold food she either has to lick or root for in their hand, dremel comes on, food becomes available, I quickly get a toe, dremel off, food goes away. Rinse and repeat. I don't hold her in position - I do hold the foot still but let go pretty quickly, and she can choose to continue or leave.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Thanks for this @O2.0 - will pm you


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I think you have to go with whatever you think will work for your own individual dog. 
Like I said I see wisdom in holding position but I also know that for Penny that would be really hard, and she gains confidence from being "right" in operant conditioning, so for her, letting her pop up and move is the right choice right now. 

If you watch her in the video starting about 2:17, she pops up the first time the dremel comes at her, I click and treat anyway. The second rep, she sits down - for her an indication of being less worried, she's not in "ready" position to take off. By the 3rd rep, she's back to fully focused on the treats. She'll pop up again on another rep that I got closer to her, but again, not a big deal, she settles right back again. 

It's another of those counterintuitive things, once the dog understands they *can* leave and opt out, the less they feel like they need to. 
I've tested this out now on a lot of different dogs and they all respond the same.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Dremel's arrived. It's a lot quieter than I expected it to be. 

I've started working with Milly - grabbing a foot, treating, letting go, manipulating the toes... I'll work on pressure holding next I think.

Once Honey realises Milly's getting treats, she'll come in and see if she can figure out why Milly's getting treats and she isn't. 

It gives me something to do with them, if nothing else.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I will try what you're doing in your vid there with Tilly today and see what happens - i suppose if she absolutely loves the sight and sound of the dremmel, then it might be all plain sailing once she trusts me with her paws


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> New Dremel's arrived.


Great efficient delivery for you there @LinznMilly


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Progress has been made!

First of all copied @O2.0 's vid there and that was extremely successful - i even managed to get my hand around her leg and pick up a paw!

She doesnt like the grinder on the higher speed but fine with it on lower. Then of course murphles had to have his go, the show off! He is fine on both speeds and paw handling.

What was brilliant is that they were both sitting side by side when a parcel arrived and the doorbell rang.

Normally Till would bark but not a pip from either and they never budged a millimetre whilst i answered the door.

Next did the exercise with till shown in my vid there but i put a very high value treat back in place (cocktail sausage) and i actually managed to hold a front paw a few times. Only for seconds. And then she pulled away.

I think i got sausage delivery timed with foot hold ok

This feels like a breakthrough! I'm very pleased with results today so thanks for your help there, O2 and hopefully this is the start of Tills learning to be relaxed with paw handling


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I’m working on Jack’s nails.

His are very black and very hard with low blood lines.

I’m taking the easier route and have a lovely Groomer who is happy to clip them free of charge once a fortnight 

I was leaving too long in between, especially as only a small amount can come off each time.

Second trim yesterday and looking so much better already.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Progress has been made!
> 
> First of all copied @O2.0 's vid there and that was extremely successful - i even managed to get my hand around her leg and pick up a paw!
> 
> ...


That's wonderful! Very happy for you 
Remember, go slow! If she's successful with paw handling, just do that part without the dremel for a while. And remember to make it easier too. Leave her feeling confident and successful


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> Dremel's arrived. It's a lot quieter than I expected it to be


You can really fall out with some people :Shifty:Shifty










:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> You can really fall out with some people :Shifty:Shifty
> 
> View attachment 464794
> 
> ...


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious

Sooooo funny!

Great to see you @Lurcherlad - even though you're not committing to full membership

Once a fortnight is good but with a dremmel, you could save yourself that trip to the groomer's and join us here in Nail Club - much more fun.

Look at the lols we've had waiting on stormy's nail grinder arriving:Hilarious

We could take bets on the date yours might turn up

Definitely wont be pushing Tills, O2. I know with her fragile disposition, it could undo everything.

And she is safely tucked up in bed when we do murphs' so she can't get any neg vibes from him


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

tabelmabel said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> Sooooo funny!
> 
> ...


I'm too nervous to do it myself


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> I'm too nervous to do it myself


You're in good company here. A few of us are starting at the very beginning and we're not confident. We're all learning together - come on board

Honestly, murphy almost took my face off when i tried the clippers. I nearly had heart failure as he came at me like a monster from the deep, teeth bared, growling and ready to attack.

But this dremmel is much easier. I drew blood on murph and there was no response at all - never felt it.

Tills is only wussing because she is Till. I could drop a blob of cream cheese on her back and she'd be hopping about like a blue arsed fly.

Seriously, i think you could get good results @Lurcherlad - think it over. These dremels we're all using are only 20 quid


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

So apparently tantrums work:









:Smug


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Has it actually arrived @StormyThai ?


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

tabelmabel said:


> Has it actually arrived @StormyThai ?


Don't be daft...I'm not that lucky 
I'm 2 stops away...not that I'm sitting here tracking the driver or anything :Shifty


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh the lols:Hilarious


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> You can really fall out with some people :Shifty:Shifty
> 
> View attachment 464794
> 
> ...





StormyThai said:


> So apparently tantrums work:
> View attachment 464798
> 
> 
> :Smug





StormyThai said:


> Don't be daft...I'm not that lucky
> I'm 2 stops away...not that I'm sitting here tracking the driver or anything :Shifty


There's not enough :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious for this.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> There's not enough :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious for this.


Made all the funnier by the fact we all know Thai is going to be a model dog on this nail grinding business

I can imagine him now with his paw placed in readiness - i bet it's been there for days resting on a velvet cushion just waiting for this grinder to turn up!

He is such a patient lad - bet he's got a right face on though. Just too funny:Hilarious


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

OK so I caved and ordered this grinder a couple of days ago, it arrived last night while I was at work so I forgot about it! (sorry @StormyThai it was super quick being delivered ) Anyway today I got to grinding! I forgot how easy it was - I had an old Dremel years ago but Nooka hated it so I stopped using it. This is so much quieter and easier to use.
I trimmed the nails with clippers first, then went to grinding! Nooka still isn't keen on the actual sensation, but is much better with the noise than she was with the Dremel, so we will need to work on that. Fly was fine once he realised it was just nail time. I only did the front feet as he can't cope with the whole lot, and that's fine. The other 2 woofs I need to clip first to get the length off, but I'm sure Puzzle won't mind any more than he does with the clippers. Just Nooka as usual being her stressy self


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

:Woot :Woot :Woot

First session tonight went _much_ better than I anticipated! I concentrated on Milly. Started with treating for letting me grab/manipulate her foot with the grinder between us, then with it turned on, and by the end of the session, I managed to touch the grinder to a couple of her nails -, literally just a touch and then back off, but I never expected to get that far tonight!  :Woot

With Honey, I simply treated for being the presence of the grinder with it turned on.

Milly's now lying on my bed and Honey's on my lap.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Sounds brilliant @LinznMilly - what a great start


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Yay @LinznMilly !

Am I the only one waiting impatiently to find out if @StormyThai grinder came? 

Got a whole front paw and two back toes today with a lickimat. Will video next time if you aren't sick of videos yet :Bag


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Am I the only one waiting impatiently to find out if @StormyThai grinder came?


No, i am. But didnt want to mention it again as im feeling it might not have!

Keep the vids coming


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh it turned up...2 minutes later my phone crashes and dies spectacularly so I spent the next few hours looking for a new phone because I need one for work.
So I'll be doing Thai's nails later this morning but no videos until my new phone turns up...


Welcome to my life :Banghead


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Oh it turned up...2 minutes later my phone crashes and dies spectacularly so I spent the next few hours looking for a new phone because I need one for work.
> So I'll be doing Thai's nails later this morning but no videos until my new phone turns up...
> 
> Welcome to my life :Banghead


You have no luck.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> no videos until my new phone turns up...


Vids aren't compulsory in nail club! You have the dog, you have the nail grinder - away you go


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

tabelmabel said:


> Vids aren't compulsory in nail club! You have the dog, you have the nail grinder - away you go


Yeah I know...but damn it I wanted to do one 

Anyway...
I have just used the grinder for one side (will do the other side later) and OH MY GOD...I've used the Dremel before but this seems much easier for me for some reason.

I still need to knock more back off of his front (as I said, I had neglected them over lockdown) but it's so much easier than using nail files for large dogs with big black old nails 
I might take some pictures of his toe beans later


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> I might take some pictures of his toe beans later


That sounds more cheery already O2 is already doing an expert job of keeping us right with her demo vids for educational purposes.

Can we cast Thai in a more comedy role - I have visions of him casting an eye over his own nails, plodding off to get his own grinder, tapping you on the shoulder, looking at you, his nails, the grinder.

I think the velvet cushion is a must for Thai. He could present his foot on that and cast his gaze pensively into the distance, pulling a suitably contemplative expression as only Thai can whilst his nails are trimmed!

I have no doubt you can pull something like that off with Thai - trick nail trimming. He'd be in a class of his own with that one


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> I have just used the grinder for one side (will do the other side later) and OH MY GOD...I've used the Dremel before but this seems much easier for me for some reason.


Isn't it? I was shocked at what a better job this little cordless thing does!



Lurcherlad said:


> I'm too nervous to do it myself


If you ever want to take the plunge, we're here for support  It's really hard to mess up with a file or grinder, and despite appearances, you usually don't draw blood!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Just ordered one


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> Just ordered one


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious
We're like a bunch of dealers pushing drugs!

I'm excited for you though!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Right!
This is where we are at the moment:









I am so cross with myself for letting them get bad...Hopefully with a few short sessions every 4 days or so and they will be back to what they should be.
Many vets and groomers would be happy enough with this nail length (in fact the last time I asked the vet to knock them back after a split I was told that they were fine), but I know that his foot sits differently when the toes are able to sit properly so off with his nails it is!
It's no wonder that many, many, many dogs go for most of their lives with nails that are too long if vets and groomers think that this is right


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious
> We're like a bunch of dealers pushing drugs!
> 
> I'm excited for you though!


One of the schools that I train with alters Amazon searches (you know the bit that says "People often buy these things together") when we run a course...it's pretty funny to see...
I wonder if PF can do it too :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Many vets and groomers would be happy enough with this nail length (in fact the last time I asked the vet to knock them back after a split I was told that they were fine), but I know that his foot sits differently when the toes are able to sit properly so off with his nails it is!


Yep, a lot of people would be happy with that, but I agree with you, I'd take a good bit off still. Especially the older guys.

I did the same and let Bates' nails get way too long and I always feel so bad when I see what a difference it makes when I knock them back again 

I know some people go way too far to little nubs of nails, I don't advocate that either (though a nail nub is far less damaging than too long nails) but comfortably short for sure.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Just ordered one


Excellent news! Welcome to nail club


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> It's no wonder that many, many, many dogs go for most of their lives with nails that are too long if vets and groomers think that this is right


This nail cutting thing needs so much more education and promotion - honestly i never had a clue that normal walking didnt keep the nails short enough.

Neither of the breeders i bought from mentioned proper nail care (dew claw trim only) and nor have any vets ever mentioned the state of my dogs' nails.

My vet has mentioned plucking out murphy's ears, but not trimming his nails.

I bet a lot of pf folks that arent actually contributing to this thread will be looking at their dog's/dogs' nails for the first time and asking themselves the question:

" Should I join Nail Club?"

YES !!

Because you're going to get more help and support here than anywhere else at the moment. This is a wonderful opportunity to learn together and really benefit the health and comfort of your dog/s


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

Hey everyone, been following this thread with interest and will continue to do so! What age would you start the paw handling and nail trimming desensitisation? My pup arrives in less than 2 weeks and she'll be 8 weeks old


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

edinoodle said:


> Hey everyone, been following this thread with interest and will continue to do so! What age would you start the paw handling and nail trimming desensitisation? My pup arrives in less than 2 weeks and she'll be 8 weeks old


I would start from day one...well, give pup a couple of days to settle in but then you can start to condition handling the paws as soon as possible.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Welcome @edinoodle  Yes, I 100% agree with Stormy and then you will never get yourself into the position I now find myself in. I started at day one with my long haired dog (even though he was then a short haired pup!) on grooming his coat and I can honestly say he _loves_ being groomed. But I never started on his nails.

And my other dog, short haired, I have been very neglectful

Here is an example of how walking and running does _not _keep nails short.

This is the paw of my Tilly who is out every day, come rain or shine, hail or snow and runs an average 5 miles per day (mainly soft ground)










Quite shocking isnt it? And i cant dive in because I never started as a pup so i need to go very patiently.

Anyway, will be fabulous to have you here in Nail Club! Exciting times: new pup, neat nails


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

tabelmabel said:


> Welcome @edinoodle  Yes, I 100% agree with Stormy and then you will never get yourself into the position I now find myself in. I started at day one with my long haired dog (even though he was then a short haired pup!) on grooming his coat and I can honestly say he _loves_ being groomed. But I never started on his nails.
> 
> And my other dog, short haired, I have been very neglectful
> 
> ...


Thank you! I'm a combination of excited and overwhelmed! My puppy is a standard poodle so I'll be working with her to get her used to being groomed so hopefully it will be easy enough to get her used to her paws being handled too. That's the plan anyway, I'm hoping I can stick with all my good intentions when she actually arrives!

I had no idea that long nails could be detrimental, all the dogs I see have longer nails than your Tilly, I'm not sure I'll be able to look at them the same! Tilly is lovely - what breed is she?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

edinoodle said:


> I'm not sure I'll be able to look at them the same!


LOL one of the perils of becoming nail obsessed is that you look at every other dog's nails too and you start itching to get your hands on the dog 

Love a spoo! Lots of photos please!!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

edinoodle said:


> Tilly is lovely - what breed is she?


Thank you She is a Brittany (not Brittany spaniel, though you sometimes hear folk call them spaniels) They look like spaniels but are more akin to pointers - maybe I should get some sparkly nail varnish on Tills' nails so she could point out the pheasants stylishly:Hilarious

I'm hyper aware of her nails tip tapping on my kitchen floor - it's hard to ignore now!

Yes, just gentle handling and paw handling is perfect for your young pup. Grooming is a calming activity for pups and dogs too so it is beneficial all round


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

edinoodle said:


> Thank you! I'm a combination of excited and overwhelmed! My puppy is a standard poodle so I'll be working with her to get her used to being groomed so hopefully it will be easy enough to get her used to her paws being handled too. That's the plan anyway, I'm hoping I can stick with all my good intentions when she actually arrives!
> 
> I had no idea that long nails could be detrimental, all the dogs I see have longer nails than your Tilly, I'm not sure I'll be able to look at them the same! Tilly is lovely - what breed is she?


Do some research on cooperative handling/care
I love Spoos...we need more standards about


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

edinoodle said:


> I'll be working with her to get her used to being groomed so hopefully it will be easy enough to get her used to her paws being handled too. That's the plan anyway, I'm hoping I can stick with all my good intentions when she actually arrives!


Kikopup has some great handling videos





She tends to be much more methodical than most dogs would require, so don't feel overwhelmed by having to do all of this or exactly like she is, but it's a great tutorial. 
More realistically I tend to do gentle petting when the pup is settled next to me, and include paw, ears, mouth in that petting. I also make sure to include paws in play so that I keep that positive association with my hands on their feet. For example a lot of puppies will put their feet on you playing with a toy or tugging, perfect opportunity to quickly touch or even hold that paw - all part of the game. Then it just becomes part of the whole play experience and the dog has positive emotional connections with paw touching.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Im really making good progress with Tilly now - she is letting me hold each foot for a few seconds, whereas before she was snatching them away. 

Another great session rounded off with a game of tug and she's nicely relaxed and sleeping. Perfect as im just about to start work.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

edinoodle said:


> I'm not sure I'll be able to look at them the same!


Definitely a down side! I was looking at pictures of my old dog and all I could look at were his nails. 
He didn't particularly like his feet touched, I did occasionally manage to clip them but I definitely think he would have taken to a dremel had I known about them.

I adopted my current dog as a 9 year old (she's now 10) and she's doing really well with it, obviously I don't know what her previous owners did with her but she was neglected toward the end so even if you start to lapse with messing with the feet etc all may not be lost.


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> LOL one of the perils of becoming nail obsessed is that you look at every other dog's nails too and you start itching to get your hands on the dog
> 
> Love a spoo! Lots of photos please!!


Oh don't worry, I'm sure you'll be sick of photos within a week of her arrival! 



StormyThai said:


> Do some research on cooperative handling/care
> I love Spoos...we need more standards about


Thank you, will do!



O2.0 said:


> Kikopup has some great handling videos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, I've watched some of Kikopups videos but not that one! My list of puppy reading/viewing is increasing instead of getting smaller 



Arny said:


> Definitely a down side! I was looking at pictures of my old dog and all I could look at were his nails.
> He didn't particularly like his feet touched, I did occasionally manage to clip them but I definitely think he would have taken to a dremel had I known about them.
> 
> I adopted my current dog as a 9 year old (she's now 10) and she's doing really well with it, obviously I don't know what her previous owners did with her but she was neglected toward the end so even if you start to lapse with messing with the feet etc all may not be lost.


That's good to know. It's interesting that the dremel seems preferable to clippers, I wouldn't have expected that for some reason. Sorry to hear your dog was neglected


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

edinoodle said:


> It's interesting that the dremel seems preferable to clippers,


The noise of the handles slapping together seems to terrify some dogs! I think, also, if the clippers are held side on whilst on the nail, it causes pressure on the quick which the dog senses as pain.

And i suppose any mis cuts and snipped quicks arent ever going to be forgotten!

Whereas a nicked quick with the dremmel isnt painful (not if you stop at the first sign of blood anyway)

You seem to be well clued up in puppy prep - good to see! Will it be your first dog or have you already plenty experience?


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

tabelmabel said:


> The noise of the handles slapping together seems to terrify some dogs! I think, also, if the clippers are held side on whilst on the nail, it causes pressure on the quick which the dog senses as pain.
> 
> And i suppose any mis cuts and snipped quicks arent ever going to be forgotten!
> 
> ...


That makes total sense, I didn't even consider the noise of the clippers.

Thank you, that's made my day!  My partner and I have both been studying puppy books in preparation, she'll be our first dog but we've both had family dogs in the past. I've wanted a standard poodle for years and it's been a exciting process following the pregnancy and birth of the puppies, but these last couple of weeks are dragging! Just can't wait for her to arrive!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Today was Bates' nail day, Penny is getting a day off.

Front:
This is a good length for him, the side nail on his right foot needs to come off a little more, but otherwise this is good. Plenty of ground clearance, he can get all parts of his paw pads on the ground no matter which way he leans, and his toes can fully function. 
















And rear:
His rear paws are more cat shaped than his front paws, which make the nails retract a little when he stands. They look shorter than they actually are, particularly in the last photo. Same thing, the side nails could stand to come off a little more.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh dear: dremmel disaster!!!!


So it was all going great guns with Tilly in her game on position; no probs there.

Then murphs wants a shot. He is far further on in his training with this and is able to lie perfectly still whilst the dremel moves around him switched on. He can even have it touching his nails switched off (not on yet, or he moves)


However, i was using the high value cocktail sausage treats.

Was moving the switched-on dremel about him, with its guard on. When his head comes up to get a sausage.

Instantly, the dremel wound into his moustache!!! I have had a real job getting it out as i couldnt get the guard off at first.

Fortunately, murph is nice and steady. Had he had Tilly's personality, he'd have been flying about the house like one possesed!

After it was detatched, he was ready to continue. And he is still relaxing in the same spot now.

What a brave boy!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Oh dear: dremmel disaster!!!!
> 
> So it was all going great guns with Tilly in her game on position; no probs there.
> 
> ...


Oh Murph! 
Tell him I know exactly how he feels, I once used the hand I was holding the dremel in to put a lock of hair behind my ear. OH was no use attempting to rescue me because he was laughing so hard. enguin


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh no:Hilarious

They are quite lively, these dremels, aren't they


I have finally looked up the correct spelling. I have been alternating between double and single 'm' right through this thread as i have been too lazy to check out which is correct.

I've got a new respect for the spirited nail grinder - the way mine has been drawing blood and grappling with murphs' moustache is positively leech like.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I was actually going to post a warning in here for those of us with long hair to make sure it's tied back before starting...not that I've learnt the hard way or anything :Angelic
Cheers Murph's for proving the point :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Just ordered one


Arrived roughly 24hrs later, this morning 

(sorry @StormyThai

)

Jack's lying close to me on the sofa and I just tried switching it on and he didn't bat an eyelid. It's amazingly quiet ... I was surprised tbh.

I tried it against my thumb nail too and it was still very quiet.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Well, apparently the dremel is fine now. Got both front feet done. Will do rears tomorrow, didn't want to push our luck


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Lily's nails are too long - they touch the floor, well the two outer nails do but I'm working on it. She doesn't tap though oddly enough.

Zazu is rather good - he is a very chill pup, probably still settling in. He is happy to enjoy a chew while I play with his feet/nails and give them a trim.

Glad to have dogs with mostly white nails :Hilarious Although Lily has 4 brown nails, one on each paw and Zazu has 3 or 4 black nails - kinda just go for it with them, I can judge quick length by their white nails normally.

I'm a millers forge clippers person - I love them!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ShibaPup said:


> I'm a millers forge clippers person - I love them!


Until we convert you to the grinder and then you'll be saying "why did no one tell me sooner?!"


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Until we convert you to the grinder and then you'll be saying "why did no one tell me sooner?!"


I've tried one previously - it got caught in my hair and left a nice bruise on my forehead and I did more damage to my own nails :Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ShibaPup said:


> I've tried one previously - it got caught in my hair and left a nice bruise on my forehead and I did more damage to my own nails :Hilarious


Oh I'm so sorry but :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious
Talk about go big or go home! You really picked a fight with the dremel didn't you?


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Are you joining nail club @ShibaPup? Would be great to have you on board

Murph wasnt up for nails or grooming last night. He'd had a rough day, body slamming Tills in the morning and getting his ears boxed by Beryl in the evening. He just wanted to sign off, bless him.

I had prepared some little cocktail sausages in a plastic bowl but set them aside when i saw he wasnt up for it. Just on the settee.

This morning, i remembered id left them on the settee all night. And murph has free range of the room at night. I just knew they would still be there, untouched.

And they were

He is sooooo good at not taking food. He never does. Tilly cant be trusted and will thieve in plain sight, but murph never.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

In the interests of empathetic research, i dremelled my own fingernail last night. As murph, he seems to be ok with it and then suddenly there's a little yelp and he pulls away.

So, i think i might have felt what he is complaining about. As it wasnt painful, until i just got a small shooting pain senstation in one part. On a pain scale it was definitely no more than a one. But enough to make a tense dog pull away.

Didnt try murphs' nails last night. Had to give him 2 rimadyl as he is very sore at the moment. I am panicking a bit as he is booked in at the groomer in April and he has a bit of matting on one of his hips and a little at the back of his neck.

He is very adept at presenting the same areas for grooming and avoiding others. So one side combs through perfectly, and the other does not!

I definitely dont want his body clipped short. But i think i will get his feet clipped short so i can see how he is standing.

Post rimadyl, i got most of his matty hip sorted. Tills really doesnt help - she hangs of his hair, slavering all over him and matting him up as fast as i am de matting. Between her, the wet weather, and murphs' fondness for a good roll in the undergrowth, it's a full time job keeping up with his coat just now!

Have you tried with jack yet, @Lurcherlad ?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Not yet. Maybe over the weekend.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Had another crack at Thai's front left (my hands are too shakey to do anymore today).
This is where we are now:

















I still need to get more off when the quick recedes but you can already see the difference in the toes between the first picture and these...onwards and upwards


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> but you can already see the difference in the toes between the first picture and these


Yes you can! It literally changes the shape of your dog's foot. 
A lot of dogs with splayed feet don't really have splayed feet, they just have too long toe nails.

The change in Thai is very subtle but I've seen some dogs change dramatically. 
Do you notice any change in his movement?


----------



## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Did Tilly's other front, not my prettiest work.
She was even better this time round. 
Last time she did a fair bit of shuffling but didn't leave. This time she sat completely still and was very patient.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Arny said:


> Did Tilly's other front, not my prettiest work.
> She was even better this time round.
> Last time she did a fair bit of shuffling but didn't leave. This time she sat completely still and was very patient.
> View attachment 465101


Looking good!!! 
Great that she's so calm about it


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Looking fantastic @Arny - I'm well-jel!!!!


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Do you notice any change in his movement?


Less tripping and he isn't slowing down at the end of his walk...both of which I had put down to his arthritis playing up...honestly, I'm so cross with myself :Muted
I'm really glad for this thread though because it is keeping me accountable and giving me the kick up the ass I needed to get them back in shape


----------



## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> I'm really glad for this thread though because it is keeping acountable and giving me the kick up the ass I needed to get them back in shape


Yes, im glad this thread has picked up some momentum as it definitely is these sorts of threads that keep me working away on things every day.

It always seems to be me in the dunces' zone though - i loved sairy's heelwork thread and it was that that led me into rally but i remember putting a vid on that, expecting folk to be at a similar standard and then being blown away by some of the heelwork on there.

Same here - everyone joining seems to already have a dog that is fine with the nail grinder. Except me.

I dont mind being back of the pack but would be nice to have some company here in the first stage conditioning rung of the ladder!

On a positive note, tilly is coming on really well with her relaxing and paw handling and i have to say it was @O2.0 's vid there that was the bridge i needed from where i was stuck to where i am now - thanks again for that.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

It's not a competition, you will get there when you get there and in the mean time if you get stuck with anything you have your SG course or those of us here that have already been through the conditioning process to help and support you 

The fact that Tilly is coming along well shows how much work you are putting in and just how far you have come


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> New It's not a competition, you will get there when you get there and in the mean time if you get stuck with anything you have your SG course or those of us here that have already been through the conditioning process to help and support you


All true, thank you

Good job my dogs havent taken to it like ducks to water as I would be the most unbearable show off


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> I'm really glad for this thread though because it is keeping me accountable and giving me the kick up the ass I needed to get them back in shape


Same 



tabelmabel said:


> On a positive note, tilly is coming on really well with her relaxing and paw handling and i have to say it was @O2.0 's vid there that was the bridge i needed from where i was stuck to where i am now - thanks again for that.


Really glad it was helpful! Good girl Tilly


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

tabelmabel said:


> everyone joining seems to already have a dog that is fine with the nail grinder. Except me.


Hold ya horses, woman!  I'm the since of the group. Haven't even tried with Honey - a couple of (very gentle) foot grabs, and treating for being calm with the grinder on (not even at the same time) is about as far as I've got with her.

And I haven't had a chance to do any further training with Milly, either. She's had a bit of an upset tummy, according to bro, so held off on any training in case it was treat related, and last night, the girls spent the night over bro's.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

tabelmabel said:


> Yes, im glad this thread has picked up some momentum as it definitely is these sorts of threads that keep me working away on things every day.
> 
> It always seems to be me in the dunces' zone though - i loved sairy's heelwork thread and it was that that led me into rally but i remember putting a vid on that, expecting folk to be at a similar standard and then being blown away by some of the heelwork on there.
> 
> ...


Noooo Nooka really isn't keen on it either, though I did manage to do her back feet while my brother fed her. Her front feet are the ones that get sore and she chews if they are so they are more sensitive and she's less happy having them handled. 
I can have the grinder on and touch her feet, or touch them with it off, but can't grind her front nails just yet. 
Fly's the opposite and is funny about his back feet - I think they are ticklish though.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Second session tonight.

I took a step back with this session, and concentrated on holding Milly's feet and manipulating her toes, both with the grinder on, and off. By the end of the session she was offering her paw instead of letting me grab it. 

Made some progress with Honey too, and moved the grinder (switched on) to right beside her. Stroked her feet with my hand too.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

tabelmabel said:


> Looking fantastic @Arny - I'm well-jel!!!!


Thank you  I can't take the credit re handling, she came to me like this.
Probably because she's very used to having to be messed with.

I'm in awe of those that can do it without a helper acting as treat dispenser.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Sarah H said:


> Noooo Nooka really isn't keen on it either, though I did manage to do her back feet while my brother fed her. Her front feet are the ones that get sore and she chews if they are so they are more sensitive and she's less happy having them handled.
> I can have the grinder on and touch her feet, or touch them with it off, but can't grind her front nails just yet.


That sounds like Murphy's stage. I can get his done with distraction. And he is cool about having the switched off dremel touched to his nails.

Tilly is further back than that! She is just starting to accept paw handling.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Well done @LinznMilly !!! Milly has done amazing there offering a paw! Wow!

And Honey's session sounds really positive too! Awesome!


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I've been grinding away at Whisp's nails every sunday and Wednesday and they're looking nice and rounded now.

On our walk today my mum said she looked lighter on her feet so that's positive.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Got Penny's front feet done today. Happy with this length, she's still ticking on the floor but that may be her back feet. I'll do those tomorrow, baby steps! If she's still ticking, she's still ticking, I won't go shorter than this.


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

So we’ve progressed to the grinder touching a nail for a couple of seconds for a treat. We did this a few times tonight and then called it a day. It seems Paxo has been watching O2.0’s videos as he is doing very well at the “Bates Face”!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> Got Penny's front feet done today. Happy with this length, she's still ticking on the floor but that may be her back feet. I'll do those tomorrow, baby steps! If she's still ticking, she's still ticking, I won't go shorter than this.
> 
> View attachment 465200
> 
> ...


Rosie's nails are very short, but she 'ticks' on the laminate floor.

It's because she flicks her feet backwards when she walks, so her nails come temporarily in contact with the floor.

May be what Penny is doing? Many terriers do.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Rafa said:


> Rosie's nails are very short, but she 'ticks' on the laminate floor.
> 
> It's because she flicks her feet backwards when she walks, so her nails come temporarily in contact with the floor.
> 
> May be what Penny is doing? Many terriers do.


Yes, I think the foot shape, conformation, and how the dog walks has a lot to do with clicking. The danes could get their nails pretty long and not click, but their nails were too long. 
Penny doesn't really walk anyway, she trots most of the time and even her walk is very prancy, like you say, she definitely flicks her feet.

Susan Garrett's rule is no clicking but I don't think that's realistic for some dogs. Certainly get the nails off the ground, allow the whole pad of the foot to make contact with the ground, but if there is clicking beyond that, I'm not particularly worried about it.

With Penny my motives are purely selfish, she climbs on me and jumps on my legs, as long as her nails are short enough to not scratch me, we're good  
Plus the grinder makes them nice and smooth which helps too.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Rosie never walks. She either trots or moves at a sort of collected canter. 

I have never cut her claws, they stay very short and that can only be the way she moves.

She does have a very 'sprightly' action, and flicks her feet backwards.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

LOL these busy terriers! 
Penny will walk when she's scavenging for crumbs in the kitchen, but her general mode of transport from point A to point B is a trot or faster. She does have a lovely, efficient, ground covering trot, I actually love watching her move, it's so pretty :Angelic

You better not say you've not cut her claws too loud around these parts or we'll suck you in to nail club!  

I think most dogs would flick their feet or at least have a good wrist break-over if they had proper nail length. Bates loses his break-over when his nails are too long. I think that adds to old dog stiffness along with everything else too long nails do.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I do cut her dew claws.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I've done his left front and neatened up his back feet today:

























I want to get those outside nails down a bit more, but overall I'm pretty happy


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> I want to get those outside nails down a bit more, but overall I'm pretty happy


Those look really good!

Thai's nails grow almost straight down don't they? That will make it harder to keep them off the ground, but those are looking good


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Those look really good!
> 
> Thai's nails grow almost straight down don't they? That will make it harder to keep them off the ground, but those are looking good


Thanks 
Yeah they grow straight down so once I have those outside nails clear so that they aren't twisting out with pressure then I will be happy...I don't want them much shorter with his foot structure


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Looking good @StormyThai 

Exciting missive in my in box today - SG's next installment! However, now she has the clippers, some very long curved scissors to clip the hair that grows between the pads and an actual dremel brand dremel on scene!

So that is a lot to take in. Interestingly though, I think murphs' nails must be short enough just for now as he definitely does seem to have some sensitivity there. I have tried to get that shell bit back on the tops but he isnt too co operative with it. He does come to me when he hears the dremel so he definitely has got the sound associated with good things but he is acting as if it hurts.

He has the groomer mid april so i will get all his foot hair taken off and see what the situation is. He isnt tapping on the floor and i think he might well be walking better 

Might need to turn my attentions to Miss Tills . . . .


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh . . . .my. . . . .word!!!!!!!!!



MAJOR news of the most amazing magnitude! Stop press! I have managed to get a little shaving from every single nail on murphy's back feet and he never pulled away, flinched or nothing!


No helper. Just me, my dog and - well, ok - my slowcooker ceramic pot (crockpot to o2) which had the residue of yesterday's beef joint in it.

So, whilst murphs' head was in there, he just let me lift his feet and crack on!!


Maybe he is better at this time of day. Point one. Point 2 is i think i was holding the dremel at a better angle.

And point 3 there was natural daylight which made the whole thing much easier.


Im feeling top of the world with that success!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

If licking out the crockpot worked that well, you may need to try a lickimat with him


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> If licking out the crockpot worked that well, you may need to try a lickimat with him


Tried that - last night i even had a bit of beef residue on a lickimat but it was a no go.

I think he genuinely does get sore in the evenings. Depending on the weather and how much running about he has done that day. He absolutely loves being groomed for the attention it brings him. Most evenings he will turn onto his back, and he kind of crooks a front paw over and whines.

And that means 'groom me' It really relaxes him usually but if he is sore he actually flinches at the grooming spray anywhere near his hip area. That's before i even put a comb to him! There's no way that can hurt i dont think, but i suppose if he is is pain in that area, it makes sense that he is going to tense up and be on edge just waiting for pain to start.

And he just doesnt want me near it. Give him a couple of painkillers and we are good to go.

Given that he is a pretty tolerant kind of dog, im inclined to think he has either been suffering genuine pain (or just sensitivity) when i have been trying his nails during the evenings, maybe because he is just generally sore all over or because i have had the grinder at the wrong angle. Maybe both.

When he gets a professional groom, he tends to go in the morning and she always says he never shows soreness when she grooms him so maybe evenings just arent his time.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Well this is turning out to be nail day in my house! Tilly actually achieved the jelly like relaxed state where i could lift her limbs and have them flop back down!

Im saying 'could' rather than 'can' as it might be a one off. Some sort of lucky star must be on my horizon for sure


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I was hoping to get Milly's back feet done with the grinder while she scoffed down a lickimat tonight. She wasn't having any of it. She pulled her feet away if I simply stroked her foot with my hand, grinder on the floor. . Bit disappointed, I can't lie.

I let her finish the mat and tried again with treats, which went better, but still a bit reluctant to have her feet touched.

Bro said she's been "edgy" on walks today - which, from what he said, sounds like she was highly aroused and on the scent of a cat. Luckily for the cat she was on lead.

In hindsight, I think I should have left it. I'll give her the night off tomorrow.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Tilly has chosen to go to sleep on top of the nail grinder today. Not switched on.









Yesterday, when i was practising with murph, Till practically flung herself into her game on position and she was very good, waiting for her turn.

She has definitely cracked that bit










She looks quite whistful doesn't she?!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

tabelmabel said:


> Tilly has chosen to go to sleep on top of the nail grinder today. Not switched on.
> View attachment 465458
> 
> 
> ...


She certainly does.  I can only hope for my two to lie like that. 

Decided to have some quality time with my girls this morning, and part of that was Round 3. Milly was enthusiastically offering her paws and I got a few good paw holds and toe manipulation in, and managed to get the grinder close enough that the light shone on her nails, but that's as far as I got.

Honey was happy to sit and watch and get treats for being beside the grinder with it switched on.  

I think I'm going to have to ask a groomer or the vet to cut Milly's nails right back and see if that makes a difference.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

They don't lie like that when the grinder comes out @LinznMilly! Well, they do sort of. They can lie like that with it switched on and i can touch the base of it to their bodies and they wont move.

Murph can have the switched off grinder touched to a nail, and tapped gently on a nail but switched on near or on his nails and he is straight on his feet!

And Till is not at the stage of trying the on grinder near a nail, and not totally comfy yet with it tapped to a nail switched off. She isnt yet relaxed totally with the paw handling but she is massively better from where she started.

I think i will ask the groomer to take murphs' dew claws back. I have had a look at them but they aren't dremel suitable as his legs are so hairy. They will be better clipped off.

April 7th he goes. Im also asking her to clip back the hair on his feet. Had a disaster the other night where i tried the dremel with no guard on and it wound into his foot hair, the barrel detatched and the grinder was just clogged with his hair! It had wound between the plastic top of the dremel and base of the grinding barrel and forced off the barrel!!

He does lie like that for grooming. He is so good, very patient with any mats, not scared of scissors. I can cut bits out, or use the mat master blade and he will lie still for all that.

He is in pretty good comb through condition now for the groomer so she should manage to get him looking pretty good and sort his dew claws for me too.

One useful bit of feedback i did get on SG forum re Tilly that will stick in my head for all training is "What happens if you change some part of the picture for her?"

I really like that. So often, we try to train something and then practise the same, inefficient pattern even when progress stalls. But if we step back and just _ change_ a part of it - we move forward.

For murph, moving the time of day and to a different room in the house really helped. He was in the pattern of thinking 'im ok with this part . . . .and im ok with this next bit . . . but i dont like what comes after this and i know im getting up and leaving just before it happens!'

Dogs are so good at reading us, we do need to keep a step ahead and keep changing and adapting.

So i like that "change a part of the picture"


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2021)

So we tried something new today 

Nova was having a paw soak in the bath tub and I clipped her nails then. She was calm and it was easier to clip because the water had softened the nails. I have to take a photo later. Weirdly her back paws she doesn’t mind at all being clipped but she’s weary with her front paws, so today I got them the shortest they have been for a while. Was thinking of this thread all day so it bugged me so much I wanted to keep conditioning her to associate good things with grooming!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh that is great @Kakite 

I had a flash of genius this morning - at least i think it could be good (all my very own idea and not SG)

I thought, as an extra intermediate step before putting a dremel to Tills' nails switched on - what about an electric toothbrush?

That would give a sensation and sound but maybe less vibration that the dremel.

What does anyone think about that?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

tabelmabel said:


> Oh that is great @Kakite
> 
> I had a flash of genius this morning - at least i think it could be good (all my very own idea and not SG)
> 
> ...


You could do the same idea with the grinder to keep the same association. 
Hold the grinder, with it on, and instead of touching her with the grinder, touch her with a finger from the hand holding the grinder. She will feel the vibration through your hand, but it will be less.

I've been doing this with Penny's back feet that are proving more ticklish than her front feet. Touch, mark, treat. Touch, mark, treat. 
My only issue is she wants to investigate the grinder and keeps trying to get her nose dremeled off! Darned curious terriers! I'd put the cap back on, but I think I accidentally threw it away in a fit of tidying


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh yes, im maybe complicating things with the toothbrush step

Tills is the same sticking her nose near the dremel - she doesnt seem a bit scared of it but we are nowhere near getting it on her toes just yet. She just isnt relaxed enough with the paw handling but it is getting better from what it was, no doubt.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Well, not too bad at all touching a nail holding the grinder. Head shot up but she didnt panic and fly off.


1st nail trim for baby piggy though - so easy compared to dogs. Snip, snip, snip, job done.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I’ve just done two of Milly’s nails on her back foot! :Woot :Woot :Woot She was lying on the couch when I decided to grab her foot and the grinder. First she knew about it was when I made a huge fuss of her and told her what a good girl she is. 

Now she’s tucked her feet underneath her in case I act weird again. :Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> I've just done two of Milly's nails on her back foot! :Woot :Woot :Woot She was lying on the couch when I decided to grab her foot and the grinder. First she knew about it was when I made a huge fuss of her and told her what a good girl she is.


Ha ha! Stealth approach! I like it


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Ha ha! Stealth approach! I like it


 Think I'm in the bad books tonight - I gave the girls their flea and wormer too.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2021)

Ok so I FINALLY sat down to work this dremel out. Got the dogs on the grooming table (love that thing) and just held to to a couple of their nails. They didn't love it, but they tolerated it. Considering McKenzie thinks nail clippers are out to murder her, it was a significant improvement!

I haven't gone back to read the rest of the thread yet so it may have been answered, but wondering what sort of speed is best?

ETA oh and what fine-ness of sandpaper do I want?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

McKenzie said:


> I haven't gone back to read the rest of the thread yet so it may have been answered, but wondering what sort of speed is best?
> 
> ETA oh and what fine-ness of sandpaper do I want?


Slower speed is quieter, but tends to not have enough power if you push on it, faster speed tends to be less ticklish.
I'd play around and see what works best for you and the dogs.

I used a coarser grit sandpaper on the danes otherwise nothing came off. You may have to play around there too and see what works. 
Just be super careful with the sandpaper, it does get hot really fast, especially at faster speeds. 
I love the diamond tip doesn't dull and doesn't get hot. If you get along with your dremel may be worth investing in a diamond tip.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> Slower speed is quieter, but tends to not have enough power if you push on it, faster speed tends to be less ticklish.
> I'd play around and see what works best for you and the dogs.
> 
> I used a coarser grit sandpaper on the danes otherwise nothing came off. You may have to play around there too and see what works.
> ...


Thanks, I switched to the finest one and it worked well with McKenzie's nails but not so much with Elliot's so will keep trying.

It was bouncing off the nail quite a bit - am I not pressing firmly enough?

My knuckle got a good sanding too :Facepalm


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

McKenzie said:


> It was bouncing off the nail quite a bit - am I not pressing firmly enough?


For bouncing try changing the angle a bit or switching directions, like, if you're holding the dremel on the right of the foot, hold it on the left. 
You might need more pressure too, or higher speed.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I found this a few days ago which advises between 10 and 15 000 rpm. It's quite an interesting page so i will link it here

https://milesandemma.com/how-to-dremel-dog-nails/


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2021)

tabelmabel said:


> I found this a few days ago which advises between 10 and 15 000 rpm. It's quite an interesting page so i will link it here
> 
> https://milesandemma.com/how-to-dremel-dog-nails/


Oh that's helpful thanks. At first I tried 5 and then changed to 10 which worked well for McKenzie, could maybe go 15 for Elliot.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2021)

Ok here are Elliots nails in their current state. They don't touch the table when he's standing, but they do click. What am I aiming for?

Sorry, the pictures are rubbish and his feet are dirty and wet - just back from a walk!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

The rear ones look good (the first photo yes?)
Front ones, I'd knock the tips off along the green line I've put here: 









That's a guestimate on my part BTW, You'll have to see where his quick is, but you might be able to knock that all off in one session. From there his quicks should recede and you should be able to take more off.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Jack is lying next to me on the sofa so I tried turning on the sander to see how he reacted to the noise.

He didn’t, apart from raising his head so I tried stroking him with my finger while holding it in that hand. No reaction apart from laying his head back down.

So I tried holding a paw in my free hand and isolated a nail between two fingers and touched it with the grinding end. Again, nothing so I gave it a brief tinkle round the tip and took off about a millimetre. Did the same on another and then stopped.

Will try a bit more later.

Really pleased at his relaxed attitude to it


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Jack is lying next to me on the sofa so I tried turning on the sander to see how he reacted to the noise.
> 
> He didn't, apart from raising his head so I tried stroking him with my finger while holding it in that hand. No reaction apart from laying his head back down.
> 
> ...


That's what I did with Milly. . She wasn't having any of it with her front paws, but her back paws were fair game. I still need to take more off, but hey, still progress. 

Good boy Jack.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

That's excellent news @Lurcherlad - aren't you glad now that you joined nail club 

Great going for you too @LinznMilly - murph is better too with his back feet.

I'm focusing on keeping murph tangle free before he goes to the groomer on Wednesday. He is matting up on a daily basis atm. Really dont want him losing his lovely locks


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Managed to cut the hair around Honey's feet this afternoon I preparation for the grinder. Expected much more drama from my little diva, but apart from a look that said "WTF are you doing?"  she didn't react. 

I'm under no illusion that it'll be that easy with the grinder.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Amazing news!!!!!!! You know how i have just been using a distraction technique with murph and he has been standing up not at all happy really (except when he had his nose in the beef)


Well. MAJOR ADVANCE FORWARD i had him lying in the game on position. And i have been able to tap the switched off grinder against his nail before, but he has always shot up when it switches on.


So today, i tapped it against murphs' nail on a FRONT paw 3 times, saying 'tap' each time. So tap, tap, tap.

Then i told him i was switching on, talked him through it (murph does respond well to a human voice telling him how well he is doing)


And then i swiched on to low speed and tapped 3 times and HE DIDNT MOVE AT ALL!!!!!

Can you even believe that???!!!!!!


And i did it again!

Just one nail and didnt take anything much off at all but i really think this is a huge breakthrough.

Once he believes it wont hurt, i think i will actually get him loving his nails done like he loves being combed and brushed.

Very, very optimistic about this now.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Took some more off the nails off Milly's hind feet. I stopped when I caught her lick her lips out of the corner of my eye.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2021)

Today Elliot's decided he doesn't like the dremel  Kenzie will let me sit next to her on the sofa and do little bits on hers provided the treats keep coming, but Elliot's totally not on board. I've started sitting on the floor with a pile of treats and the dremel turned on and treating him if he approaches, which he will do if he sees Kenzie getting all the treats! :Hilarious


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

McKenzie said:


> Today Elliot's decided he doesn't like the dremel  Kenzie will let me sit next to her on the sofa and do little bits on hers provided the treats keep coming, but Elliot's totally not on board. I've started sitting on the floor with a pile of treats and the dremel turned on and treating him if he approaches, which he will do if he sees Kenzie getting all the treats! :Hilarious


FOMO can definitely help in these situations!


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Sarah H said:


> FOMO can definitely help in these situations!


It is definitely helping murph. He is showing off to tilly for definite so he gets more attention. He has seen me doing her calm training and he just wants to stay one step ahead. 2 dogs definitely helps!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

tabelmabel said:


> It is definitely helping murph. He is showing off to tilly for definite so he gets more attention. He has seen me doing her calm training and he just wants to stay one step ahead. 2 dogs definitely helps!


Even if you aren't actually doing their nails I find having them there with the noise and seeing the treats (and yes I'm a softy and the onlookers will get treats now and then too...:Shy ) makes them happier with the whole situation and helps them want to get involved. Any way to desensitise and make the whole thing better for them has got to be a good thing.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2021)

Update (it's possible I'm getting too emotionally involved in nail club...): McKenzie is a superstar. Elliot is good with the noise, good with me picking up his foot. Not good with me putting the switched off dremel to his nail, so that's our next step. Oh and picking up our diamond tip this morning


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> Update (it's possible I'm getting too emotionally involved in nail club...): McKenzie is a superstar.


I dont think it can be possible to get _too_ emotionally involved in such a great club as Nail Club can it? :Hilarious

Sounds like you're getting on brilliantly there

Managed to get another 3 taps on murphs' nail with the switched on dremel today. And that was him. But he was sore for grooming too. Im going to have to up his rimadyl i think to avoid the short clip on Wednesday. This cold weather i think. We are only 4 degrees here today. Brrrrrrr:Cold

Tilly was just a total wriggle bot today. Going to be a long haul with her


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2021)

tabelmabel said:


> I dont think it can be possible to get _too_ emotionally involved in such a great club as Nail Club can it? :Hilarious


Well, some people might beg to differ :Hilarious

Kenzie's actually offering me her foot now which is pretty cool


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Jack wasn’t so keen on Sunday when I tried, but I think I chose the wrong moment and angle.

He wasn’t sleepy enough and I wasn’t sneaky enough


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2021)

Eeek made more progress on novas front paws! They are even shorter now and I'm so pleased. Never had them this length. I'm now wanting to buy a dremel !!! This nail club is really egging me on 

She's not keen on paw photos though


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2021)

*Ordered a nail grinder*


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Kakite said:


> *Ordered a nail grinder*


You won't regret it !


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2021)

Beth78 said:


> You won't regret it !


Are Whisp' nails all black too? Nova only has two light nails.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Kakite said:


> Are Whisp' nails all black too? Nova only has two light nails.


Yes all black apart from 1 white claw. With the nail grinder it doesn't matter if you accidentally get the quick as you just get 1 spot of blood and no discomfort.

I find trimming with clippers so scary.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2021)

Kakite said:


> *Ordered a nail grinder*


Ooo which one did you get?

Elliot's nails are all black, that's why I've hit the quick so many times with clippers


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2021)

@McKenzie this one from Mighty Ape


















@Beth78 that sounds great! I've „only" cut into Novas quick a couple of times and it was only a Small nick each time so not much blood luckily


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Milly's definitely not happy with getting her front nails done, so I'm doing a mix of rewarding for offering paw, rewarding a gentle tap with the grinder in my hand, and occasionally for a tap of the grinder against a claw, but it's just that - a tap and off.



Sarah H said:


> Even if you aren't actually doing their nails I find having them there with the noise and seeing the treats (and yes I'm a softy *and the onlookers will get treats now and then too..*.:Shy ) makes them happier with the whole situation and helps them want to get involved. Any way to desensitise and make the whole thing better for them has got to be a good thing.


So does Honey. :Bag


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

We will have to give this a try again. We’ve had some bad experiences trying to cut nails lol.

I tried the clippers and got a muzzle punch to the hand. Since that she runs as soon as she sees the clippers so haven’t tried it since.

Tried the Dremel, she seemed pretty chill with the noise so I picked up her paw and touched the nail with it only for her to grab the top spinning bit with her mouth. No physical damage but she doesn’t like the dremel either now 

she’s recently learnt to dig on command though, I can tap the ground with my foot and say ‘dig dig’ and she’ll start digging lol. It does seem to be shortening the nails slightly but I expect I could get it done quicker with a grinder, so we will try again but start slowly this time  lol


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Jason25 said:


> We will have to give this a try again. We've had some bad experiences trying to cut nails lol.
> 
> I tried the clippers and got a muzzle punch to the hand. Since that she runs as soon as she sees the clippers so haven't tried it since.
> 
> ...


If she knows dig - you could potentially use a scratch board, while working on getting her comfortable with her paws and nails being handled.

It's basically a firm board, or clipboard, often held at an angle with sandpaper attached to it - so they file their own nails by scratching the board, it can be a little tricker for the back paws but useful for front paws.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Spa day today

Fronts


















Back









I'm pretty happy with those so back to just maintaining them now.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh Thai's nails look fab!! Yay!



Kakite said:


> *Ordered a nail grinder*


Muahahahahaha! Another convert. 
We should start taking kickbacks from that nail grinder company!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Had Jack at the vets today for an infected sebaceous cyst and to get some antibiotics and mentioned his nails to the vet and that I’m trying to get them shorter with a grinder.

She said his were actually not too bad for a greyhound 

She had a good look at them and advised grinding the tips at a 90 degree angle so the top edge was shorter (as the blood line runs under the nail). That should help improve the stance of the paw and encourage the line to recede with less risk of hitting it.

I’ll try later when he’s snoozing in the right position next to me, which worked well last time


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> She said his were actually not too bad for a greyhound


Oh high praise indeed! 



Lurcherlad said:


> She had a good look at them and advised grinding the tips at a 90 degree angle so the top edge was shorter (as the blood line runs under the nail). That should help improve the stance of the paw and encourage the line to recede with less risk of hitting it.


Yup, that's the alternate cut line - look at the photo I edited for McKenzie. I don't do a full 90* angle, but near to it. You'll get the feel for what is comfortable for Jack as you grind. But yes, once you have the bottoms ground, you can keep going at the top, and it does help the quick recede.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Vet has a greyhound herself so I figure she knows her stuff on them


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2021)

Okay I’m at work and the nail grinder just arrived. I’m so excited. Just in time for the weekend. Muahahahaha. Poor Nova!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Just a couple of videos to give some ideas:
- How to ease in to the sensation of the dremel by touching the foot with the hand holding the dremel.
- Different positions you can have the dog in.
- Working on duration, eventually you want the dog to be okay with you holding the paw for a more extended time.











Things to notice with your dog:
Penny is nervous/fidgety, but is able to eat, and chooses not to leave. She's not restrained in any way, if she wanted to leave, she could, but she doesn't.
I can restrain Penny and knock the nails back (2 person job), but I much prefer that she let me do it unrestrained and in the long term, that's really what you want to shoot for.

Bates did get treats! I promise


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Just a couple of videos to give some ideas:
> - How to ease in to the sensation of the dremel by touching the foot with the hand holding the dremel.
> - Different positions you can have the dog in.
> - Working on duration, eventually you want the dog to be okay with you holding the paw for a more extended time.
> ...


Now if it was either of my 2 they would have their snouts in the bowl and inhale the lot!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Now if it was either of my 2 they would have their snouts in the bowl and inhale the lot!


LOL I forgot to mention, yes, first you have to teach the zen bowl and variations of the zen bowl


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> LOL I forgot to mention, yes, first you have to teach the zen bowl and variations of the zen bowl


How do I do that please ? I need to teach that before i even buy a Dremel!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> How do I do that please ? I need to teach that before i even buy a Dremel!


I did this so automatically I forgot to even post about it in her thread! :Bag
Basically I teach a default leave it, where the dogs always know where the treats are, in a bowl, treat pouch, or on me. But if you bug me for treats you don't get treats. You have to not want the treat to get a treat  
Okay, not exactly not *want* a treat, but the treat doesn't happen unless you get a 'yes' or a click.

So with Penny I started out rewarding for eye contact. She knew I had treats in my hand, and as soon as she left my hand alone and made eye contact, I say 'yes' and give her a treat. With enough repetition, this transfers to them just knowing you don't get a treat for nothing and I can put a bowl down for training and they know not to mug the bowl.

I mean, I can't set the bowl in front of her and not expect her to go for it, but once I'm set up and it's clear we're training, she understands it's about earning the treat.

There are examples all over you tube of "doggy zen" or "It's yer choice" for a default leave it. I haven't messed around with that too much so far because she was hesitant at first to take treats from me so I had to work on getting her really comfortable with all forms of treat delivery. 
Now that she is comfortable, I've started with some "zen bowl" stuff which I can use to create a behavior chain for when/if I ever get her in a competition ring.

I'm also working on an actual 'leave it' (we say 'no bite') and today it worked with cat poop which was a giant win!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> I did this so automatically I forgot to even post about it in her thread! :Bag
> Basically I teach a default leave it, where the dogs always know where the treats are, in a bowl, treat pouch, or on me. But if you bug me for treats you don't get treats. You have to not want the treat to get a treat
> Okay, not exactly not *want* a treat, but the treat doesn't happen unless you get a 'yes' or a click.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'll try that. I think it will work with Reena but Bobby has problems with impulse control, or do I mean greed!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Thanks, I'll try that. I think it will work with Reena but Bobby has problems with impulse control, or do I mean greed!


You can also forgo all of that and just set the bowl out of reach


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## Nicola234 (Nov 10, 2020)

O2.0 said:


> You can also forgo all of that and just set the bowl out of reach


:Hilarious:Hilarious I've got to keep the treats out of site sometimes! I'm lucky with nails that he lets me do them but with other things he'll steal the treats lol


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> You can also forgo all of that and just set the bowl out of reach


That might be best.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2021)

Thank you @O2.0 I'll definitely start working with her this weekend. Even if it's Just getting familiar with it switched off. Nova can be very suspicious of new objects. Luckily food is her biggest weakness.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Did some more grinder training this morning, after a walk around the block. I've been concentrating on Milly's front nails and this is what I've got so far;





















Should have taken Before pics, as her nails were embarrassingly long, but I think I can see a change in her posture now.

There was a little avoidance going on, probably because I persisted a bit too long, but she was still taking treats, and I'd stop and give her a break once I noticed.

Meanwhile Honey's practically sitting on the grinder. With it turned on.  Try to grab her foot while holding the grinder though...  :Shifty


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

What grinder is everyone using? I don't know if I got one that's too big :Facepalm

I'm using this thing it's basically a dremel but a cheaper brand because I'm cheap :Hilarious









anyway I took it out the box and daisy went upstairs and lied on my bed :Hilarious

Im thinking of trying to make a scratch pad like @ShibaPup suggested lol


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Jason25 said:


> What grinder is everyone using? I don't know if I got one that's too big :Facepalm
> 
> I'm using this thing it's basically a dremel but a cheaper brand because I'm cheap :Hilarious
> View attachment 466341
> ...


This one;
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Casfuy-Dog...=Nail+grinder+for+dogs&qid=1618037250&sr=8-16

I used the scratch pad initially too, but it wasn't taking enough off Milly's nails. Maybe I didn't persistent enough.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> This one;
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Casfuy-Dog...=Nail+grinder+for+dogs&qid=1618037250&sr=8-16
> 
> I used the scratch pad initially too, but it wasn't taking enough off Milly's nails. Maybe I didn't persistent enough.


Yeah that's a lot smaller than mine I think I got the wrong size lol. Daisy took one look at it and ran off :Hilarious

I do think a scratch pad might be good, she loves to dig, but I don't know if she will like the feel of scratching her nails on it lol.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Jason25 said:


> Yeah that's a lot smaller than mine I think I got the wrong size lol. Daisy took one look at it and ran off :Hilarious
> 
> I do think a scratch pad might be good, she loves to dig, but I don't know if she will like the feel of scratching her nails on it lol.


Tbh, I think Milly would run a mile if she saw that. :Hilarious You must have added the pic in as I was typing, as I didn't see it initially.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Jason25 said:


> What grinder is everyone using? I don't know if I got one that's too big :Facepalm
> 
> I'm using this thing it's basically a dremel but a cheaper brand because I'm cheap :Hilarious
> View attachment 466341
> ...


Wow that looks heavy duty LOL.

Is it noisy ?


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2021)

Yay. Success! I worked with Nova today. Just letting her see and sniff the dremel switched off. She was fine so switched it on and after a few seconds she was happy sitting next to me while I had it switched on. Left it for a few hours and then touched her paws with it and it was switched off. No worries. Long story short she was fine with me having a go at all her nails. But I kept it a short session even though she wasn’t stressed. Do a little bit each day I think rather than a lengthy one go session. 

So proud of her. Didn’t think she’d give it a go. Once she realised it doesn’t hurt or anything she didn’t care about the noise or it touching her paws.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> Tbh, I think Milly would run a mile if she saw that. :Hilarious You must have added the pic in as I was typing, as I didn't see it initially.


Hmm, might have to get a smaller one then. I was always under the impression that the little cordless ones weren't really powerful enough, not sure where I read that to now :Facepalm And yeah I forgot to add the picture my bad lol


Beth78 said:


> Wow that looks heavy duty LOL.
> 
> Is it noisy ?


It is powerful I tried it on my nails first and it ground them down really easily lol. It's a bit loud, sounds like an electric whisker thing you use for making cakes


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jason25 said:


> Hmm, might have to get a smaller one then. I was always under the impression that the little cordless ones weren't really powerful enough, not sure where I read that to now :Facepalm And yeah I forgot to add the picture my bad lol


The big one you have is similar to the Black and Decker one I used for years on the great danes and Bates. I did have to get a diamond tip for it though because the sandpaper only lasted for about 2 dane feet then I had to switch it out.

Years ago, when I first started using a dremel (we're talking over 10 years), the cordless ones didn't have enough power and couldn't keep a charge long enough for what I needed so I never considered cordless until I got Penny. Now that I have a cordless one, this one does have enough power and holds a charge long enough to do all 4 of Bates' nails no problem. He's a big boy, big nails, and they're very hard.

The grinder @LinznMilly linked is the one I have too. It's much quieter than the Black & Decker one, like the difference between a hair dryer and an electric toothbrush. Big difference.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> The big one you have is similar to the Black and Decker one I used for years on the great danes and Bates. I did have to get a diamond tip for it though because the sandpaper only lasted for about 2 dane feet then I had to switch it out.
> 
> Years ago, when I first started using a dremel (we're talking over 10 years), the cordless ones didn't have enough power and couldn't keep a charge long enough for what I needed so I never considered cordless until I got Penny. Now that I have a cordless one, this one does have enough power and holds a charge long enough to do all 4 of Bates' nails no problem. He's a big boy, big nails, and they're very hard.
> 
> The grinder @LinznMilly linked is the one I have too. It's much quieter than the Black & Decker one, like the difference between a hair dryer and an electric toothbrush. Big difference.


Yeah mine has a few replacement sand paper bits, no idea where I'm supposed to get more of them lol. I think a hair dryer might be a better description for the noise. She really ain't keen on it lol.. the little cordless one you both have, do you need to replace the little diamond piece in it, like buy replacements or just buy a whole new one?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jason25 said:


> Yeah mine has a few replacement sand paper bits, no idea where I'm supposed to get more of them lol. I think a hair dryer might be a better description for the noise. She really ain't keen on it lol.. the little cordless one you both have, do you need to replace the little diamond piece in it, like buy replacements or just buy a whole new one?


No that's the great thing about a diamond bit - no replacing it, doesn't go dull


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2021)

Well after trying for a week to touch Elliot's feet with the dremel and not making any progress, I decided he was just being silly about it. Put him up on the grooming table, had lots of treats on hand, and just did it - and he was fine  I'll keep working on holding his feet as I think that's the bit he doesn't like. Kenzie will let me do them just sitting next to her on the sofa, which is huge for her.

I'm not sure the diamond tip I have is the right one - it doesn't seem to take off as much as the sandpaper was.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Took just the tips off all of Jack’s back nails this morning as he snoozed on the sofa


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2021)

Guys we are definitely converted! Today I got the grinder out and nova ran to her spot and waited for me to come do her nails. No fuss as she knew there’d be treats. I use a little bit of cheese which she never gets at any other time. So it’s a really high value reward for her. I managed to do each nail again and will have another session tomorrow. I’d rather not do it for too long and get more regularity in the beginning. That’s how I got her from running away from the toothbrush to getting excited for brushing teeth  so stoked!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I was checking Honey's nails this morning and realised they were beginning to curl.  :Bag. She got an emergency nail session. Put her on my lap, arm around her for light restraint, lots of praise, but a definite "this is happening" vibe. 

She coped really well! :Woot To the point where not only was she still taking treats, but she had a "what's the big deal?" Look on her face. . Got all 4 paws done, but suspect she needs quite a bit more off before we're at maintenance level. 

Much better than the screaming match we get with the clippers. :Smug


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2021)

LinznMilly said:


> I was checking Honey's nails this morning and realised they were beginning to curl.  :Bag. She got an emergency nail session. Put her on my lap, arm around her for light restraint, lots of praise, but a definite "this is happening" vibe.
> 
> She coped really well! :Woot To the point where not only was she still taking treats, but she had a "what's the big deal?" Look on her face. . Got all 4 paws done, but suspect she needs quite a bit more off before we're at maintenance level.
> 
> Much better than the screaming match we get with the clippers. :Smug


Well done you and Honey.

I feel so happy  I never thought Nova would allow me to grind her nails but because they're all dark I have started getting nervous with the clippers and she has picked up on it. With the grinder she is so relaxed.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2021)

LinznMilly said:


> a definite "this is happening" vibe.


I think that's the key for Elliot too.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I have the same grinder that @LinznMilly and @O2.0 
I charged it when it first turned up and so far I have done 3 sessions of all 4 feet without issue and Thai has big hard nails...If it wasn't for @O2.0 taking a risk I wouldn't have even looked at a cordless grinder...for £20 this is a very good buy


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> I have the same grinder that @LinznMilly and @O2.0
> I charged it when it first turned up and so far I have done 3 sessions of all 4 feet without issue and Thai has big hard nails...If it wasn't for @O2.0 taking a risk I wouldn't have even looked at a cordless grinder...for £20 this is a very good buy


I haven charged mine yet. At all. Used it straight from the box. :Wideyed


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> I haven charged mine yet. At all. Used it straight from the box. :Wideyed


Because Thai's nails are so hard and that I was a bit wary that it wouldn't cope I wanted to give it the best chance so gave it a full charge as soon as it turned up...I'm honestly impressed with how well the battery keeps it's charge


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

LinznMilly said:


> I haven charged mine yet. At all. Used it straight from the box. :Wideyed


Yeah I used mine straight away and it's still going.

Whisp has had our session today and she had her eyes closed for some of it so she obviously found it abit relaxing.
Although we did go on a new long walk this morning so maybe she's just tired.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Did a maintenance on Bates today and got a good shot of the before and after cleaning up the bottoms. You can really see here how the shell part moves out past the middle and the bottom is no longer flush on the untrimmed nail.










Here's his tootsies now 




























Front feet could use a little more off, particularly side nails, but rear feet look good.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Did some more of Honey's nails last night. Realised the reason I hadn't noticed how long her nails were was because the hair covered them so we'll, so cut them back. Caught a nail. :Bag 

She screamed. I immediately ended the session, put the scissors on the arm of my chair, from which they subsequently dived to the floor, and offered a consolation treat. Honey took the treat but scarpered when I leaned over to pick the scissors up. 

Meanwhile Milly's wondering where her treats are, so with Honey keeping her distance, I turned my attention on her. She decided she didn't like her feet being handled and kept pulling them away.  Quite happy to paw the grinder though. 

Anyway, after about half an hour, Honey got over it and we ended up all snuggled up on the couch. 

This morning, Honey decided it was too cold to get out of bed, so did a one to one walk with Mill. Managed to catch her in profile while she stood, regarding something in the distance. Her posture is definitely much better, although there is still some nail clicking going on (a lot duller, so suspect it's maybe one or two nails that need a bit more off), sounds, ironically, like it's a hind foot.

Getting there.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> She screamed. I immediately ended the session,


If at all possible, try to end on something really easy like her letting you touch a nail and praise and reward heavily that way the last thing she remembers about nails was something easy that she was able to be successful at. 
She probably screamed more in surprise than pain. 
Sounds like she recovered well though


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> If at all possible, try to end on something really easy like her letting you touch a nail and praise and reward heavily that way the last thing she remembers about nails was something easy that she was able to be successful at.
> *She probably screamed more in surprise than pain.*
> Sounds like she recovered well though


That, and the fact she's a right little diva. 

Ended with a treat. It was a minute or so later when I reached for the scissors and she bolted.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2021)

So we did another 2x sessions in the meantime. I think I’m going to be an addict  she runs to her place and waits patiently for me to get the dremel out and get her special treats. So enthusiastic. I did her dew claws today- was a bit scared of it but managed to get them nice and short.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Nail day today:
Front

















I want to get those two middle nails down a bit more, they don't click so not too bothered though.

Back









I'm going to video our next session


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Nail day today:
> Front
> View attachment 466594
> 
> ...


He looks good! I'm impressed he doesn't click, Bates still does!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Fly still clicks but the other 2 don't even though I think their nails are actually longer. It is just to do with the shape of his feet and how he walks I think. When he stands they look good.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

OMG talk about an nail obsession moment. 
I'm shopping for life jackets for Penny, and came upon this:
https://www.chewy.com/frisco-ripsto...FgeUEq3XhLC7-pZHkmcHz25vcNwaB66Fh7TZsf7ACO4aU










You may have to click on the site and hover over the photo to see the zoomed in version but those nails!!! :Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh
How can you use a doggy model with such atrocious nails?!!

Now I can't buy that life jacket. enguin


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> OMG talk about an nail obsession moment.
> I'm shopping for life jackets for Penny, and came upon this:
> https://www.chewy.com/frisco-ripsto...FgeUEq3XhLC7-pZHkmcHz25vcNwaB66Fh7TZsf7ACO4aU
> 
> ...


Eeeek that's cringeworthy!!!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Well, my new nail grinder has arrived! Today I will leave it out, cap on, and allow Reena to sniff it with treats for encouragement. Does that sound OK?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Kakite said:


> Eeeek that's cringeworthy!!!


Isn't it awful? And every dog model just about is as bad 
Just goes to show how normalized long nails are.



SusieRainbow said:


> Well, my new nail grinder has arrived! Today I will leave it out, cap on, and allow Reena to sniff it with treats for encouragement. Does that sound OK?


Sounds good to me, though she may be wholly uninterested and that's perfectly okay too. As long as she doesn't spook at it or seem fearful of it.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Isn't it awful? And every dog model just about is as bad
> Just goes to show how normalized long nails are.
> 
> Sounds good to me, though she may be wholly uninterested and that's perfectly okay too. As long as she doesn't spook at it or seem fearful of it.


Pretty 'meh' about it really.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

SusieRainbow said:


> Pretty 'meh' about it really.


That's good. 

Did another "those nails are being dremelled" session with Honey this morning before bro picked the girls up. Had to go by feel rather than sight because of her hair and only got one foot done, but it's the foot I've struggled to get her in position for, (this morning she was cradled in one arm like a baby). Still need more off before we get to maintenance level, but we're getting there. Slowly.

Both girls, are fine with the grinder, fine with it turned on, but I need to work on them being fine with their feet being held while the nails are being done. I joked to Milly this morning that if she got her foot any closer to the grinder, she'd be doing her own nails.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Milly definitely has a problem with her feet being held, so I compromised by just lightly holding her feet and grinding off a little at a time. Managed to do quite a bit that way, not perfect, and not in sequence, just doing whatever nail I could, but I managed 3 feet.

Honey. I held her pretty much like a baby. She gave mixed signals, as her tail was tucked, but when I paused, she gave her "carry on" signal, and when I finished, she not only took a treat, but had it opposite me.

She's clearly noticed and feeling the difference too. She's turned into a right cheeky little madam.  

Both girls have now taken themselves off to bed. :Smug


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

How's everyone doing? 
Penny just let me do a quick maintenance while getting belly rubs from a helpful teen  She was sort of wedged up against Bates who was also helpfully shoving his head in the way hoping for treats, but it also made it harder for her to get up :Hilarious
She's very relaxed about the dremel, I think the hardest thing for her at this point is having to be still!

















It doesn't seem like I've managed to take much more length off, but don't know how much I need to either.


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

I bought the same dremel and have been desensitising Bramble to it, although she's as good as gold and isn't fussed at all by the noise or the vibration near her feet, although it's so much quieter than I imagined! Her nails are so long already though!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Hi all. 

I come back with cap in hand, seeking advice. :Bag

I think I'm "poisoning" the girls to the grinder and/or food rewards. 

Milly isn't so bad as she still engages with the grinder when it's switched on (by engaging, I mean she paws the damn thing - no idea how she hasn't either ground her own nail or ground her paw pad before now. :Wideyed )So there's something to work with there, but she hates her feet being handled and pulls them away. I've gone right back to basics and treating for me holding her paws in turn, but she clearly isn't comfortable with it.

Honey's even worse. She's started running for her crate whenever I turn the grinder on.

Help? :Bag


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

LinznMilly said:


> Hi all.
> 
> I come back with cap in hand, seeking advice. :Bag
> 
> ...


Could you perhaps try the bucket game?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> Hi all.
> 
> I come back with cap in hand, seeking advice. :Bag
> 
> ...


Put the grinder away for now and just work on feet  
Go back to making it fun to have their feet touched. You may have to back up to clicking and treating for simply reaching for their feet (especially with Honey). Reach, but don't touch. Just reach, click & treat. If they get to where they will offer feet, even better.

Once they're okay with reaching, and touching, work on actually holding their feet and even holding firmly (like you will have to for the grinder). 
But always back up to an easier level as you build up to the harder ones. Don't always make it harder.

I also incorporate paw handling in to regular snuggles and play. If I can grab a paw in there while snuggling, it makes it more of a ho-hum event rather than something I only do when I'm about to do nails.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ShibaPup said:


> Could you perhaps try the bucket game?


I haven't played that game with them for ages, so I haven't proofed it to the point of using that as consent. It's another thing I could do with them though.



O2.0 said:


> I also incorporate paw handling in to regular snuggles and play. If I can grab a paw in there while snuggling, it makes it more of a


I do that anyway, certainly with Mill, as I just love holding their feet for some reason. But lately, they've started to take themselves off to bed, which I've put down to them decompressing after a busy (and noisy) day at bro's.

Honey just hates having her feet handled, so I've been working on her offering paw for now. Problem is, I really do need to get much more of her nails off. I might have to ask bro to clip them for me.

I'll do that. I'll click and treat just reaching for their paws. There is a window or two in which Milly in particular wants to play or engage before going to bed.

Thanks.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> I haven't played that game with them for ages, so I haven't proofed it to the point of using that as consent. It's another thing I could do with them though.
> 
> I do that anyway, certainly with Mill, as I just love holding their feet for some reason. But lately, they've started to take themselves off to bed, which I've put down to them decompressing after a busy (and noisy) day at bro's.
> 
> ...


Well, this time it's going well.  Honey comes running into the room whenever I turn the grinder on, although I'm not yet able to touch her feet with any kind of consistency, and when I _have_ had to take some off her nails with the grinder, she's not running off, and still happily taking treats. I'm wondering if the "poisoning" was trigger stacking, with what been going on with my niece - and not really to do with the grinder at all?

With Milly I'm _just_ starting to tap her nails with the grinder. She's much better with her front paws than with her hind ones, but we're getting there.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Today was nail day and since Penny's new trick is to paw at my face after my alarm goes off twice, I went a little shorter with her nails today. And ta-da! No tick tick on the floor anymore  

Speaking of tick tick, while doing Bates' nails I noticed a tick between his toes, yet another reason to make sure your dogs are totally okay with having their feet handled.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

I've become very lax with doing Tilly's nails to the point I was going to ask the vet to do them while she was under for surgery, only I forgot!
So today I got the dremel out but it had no charge argh! Since I was all ready and just know if I didn't do it then it'd fall to the bottom of the task pile again I got the clippers.
She was great, just my fear of not taking too much held us back but even with the amount I took off there's a big difference to the sound of walking on the hard floor.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

How's everyone doing? 
Penny's nails still tick on the floor, I really noticed it when we took the big rug out of the living room to wash it, and busy bee was just tick tick ticking all day long.

So I'm on a mission to get them to not tick. Right now the plan is one foot a night so it's not a giant chore, literally less than 5 minutes with someone feeding her cheese, I do one foot, woo hoo, good girl, done. And so far it has left her wanting to keep going which is perfect. We're only on day 3 and she saw me get the grinder and leaped in to OH's lap ready to go - I hadn't even gotten any treats out yet!

Sometimes I look at her nails and they look plenty short to me, other times I can see where she can have more off, I'm still rather torn on how short I want them to go because she really does use them out in the woods, she's a maniac. But they do tick, so ugh... IDK!!


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

Penny is such a superstar! I know nothing about nails but her nails don't look long!

Bramble is fine with the noise and feel of the the vibrations on her body including her legs, and I've been playing with her paws occasionally and she's never pulled away or anything but when I went to pick her up from the groomers a few days ago I heard her crying when having her nails clipped  I don't know why and I'd like to get the point where I can dremel her nails so that she doesn't have them clipped again but it's also having the confidence to do it. She has very hairy feet so I was thinking of spending time on desensitising her to wearing socks so that her hair can be kept out of the way? And then just doing small sessions with the dremel itself? I think it doesn't help that I'm nervous of using the dremel but I need to crack on with it now because I don't want her to have a negative association


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

edinoodle said:


> Penny is such a superstar! I know nothing about nails but her nails don't look long!
> 
> Bramble is fine with the noise and feel of the the vibrations on her body including her legs, and I've been playing with her paws occasionally and she's never pulled away or anything but when I went to pick her up from the groomers a few days ago I heard her crying when having her nails clipped  I don't know why and I'd like to get the point where I can dremel her nails so that she doesn't have them clipped again but it's also having the confidence to do it. She has very hairy feet so I was thinking of spending time on desensitising her to wearing socks so that her hair can be kept out of the way? And then just doing small sessions with the dremel itself? I think it doesn't help that I'm nervous of using the dremel but I need to crack on with it now because I don't want her to have a negative association


I don't have hairy dogs, but one tip I've heard it to take old nylon stockings, slip them on to the foot, poke the nails through, and that pulls all the hair out of the way.

Yes, I would want to get her happy having her feet done as it's such an integral part of grooming and so important to overall comfort and well-being. 
IME most dogs find clippers uncomfortable even if you're not taking too much off. Especially if you take the nail off in chunks instead of small shavings each time. 
I've yet to work with a dog who didn't eventually desensitize to a rotary grinder. They're just more comfortable, maybe even pleasant once the dog gets used to it. I imagine the vibration is almost massage-like LOL

If you're nervous using the grinder, get yourself a wooden pencil and practice on that. It will get you used to how you want to hold the grinder, keeping it steady, familiarizing yourself with how much pressure to apply to avoid it bouncing. And you won't have to be nervous


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> I don't have hairy dogs, but one tip I've heard it to take old nylon stockings, slip them on to the foot, poke the nails through, and that pulls all the hair out of the way.
> 
> Yes, I would want to get her happy having her feet done as it's such an integral part of grooming and so important to overall comfort and well-being.
> IME most dogs find clippers uncomfortable even if you're not taking too much off. Especially if you take the nail off in chunks instead of small shavings each time.
> ...


Yeah I totally agree, I thought I was moving at a good speed but in hindsight I've been going too slowly because I'm nervous of the dremel, but I'll be getting some nylon stockings tomorrow and finding a wooden pencil tonight and then the real desensitisation begins! Thank you for the help!


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

What are people's opinions of teaching nail trimming position of dog lying on their back on the floor between your legs? I've seen some people do it, but it's definitely a nope for Cad, so haven't considered it before.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> How's everyone doing?


They grow too fast!!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Torin. said:


> What are people's opinions of teaching nail trimming position of dog lying on their back on the floor between your legs? I've seen some people do it, but it's definitely a nope for Cad, so haven't considered it before.


I'd say it was totally dog dependent. If you have a dog who is happy with nail clipping and likes to chill out on their back, then why not? I can do it like this with Puzzle if he's chilled out enough.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Torin. said:


> What are people's opinions of teaching nail trimming position of dog lying on their back on the floor between your legs? I've seen some people do it, but it's definitely a nope for Cad, so haven't considered it before.


I've seen a couple people do it, but it's such a vulnerable position for a dog, none of mine have liked to be on their back for a long time anyway, and definitely not wedged in between your legs where it's harder to get up. 
Bates was too big for that position to be practical, the danes were way too big, Penny is a good size to do it that way, but she's not keen on being on her back like that unless it's bedtime and we're all going to sleep.

If the dog likes it, I'd say go for it, but if the dog doesn't, I wouldn't worry about getting them comfortable in that position.



Arny said:


> They grow too fast!!


I have no scientific evidence but I swear old dogs grow nails faster than anything!


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

We are managing to trim Rufus's nails one each day at the moment  He's getting better but still does not like it. I tried a few groomers to see if they would help with desensitisation as I assumed they'd be experts at it. But most didn't answer the phone, one said they weren't taking on new clients, and one said they because he was 9 months old it was too late and we'd be better off taking him to the vets for them to do it. Entirely unhelpful! So back to one a day with sausages


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Emlar said:


> We are managing to trim Rufus's nails one each day at the moment  He's getting better but still does not like it. I tried a few groomers to see if they would help with desensitisation as I assumed they'd be experts at it. But most didn't answer the phone, one said they weren't taking on new clients, and one said they because he was 9 months old it was too late and we'd be better off taking him to the vets for them to do it. Entirely unhelpful! So back to one a day with sausages


Most of the groomers I know are stacked, so they might not have time to help out someone with nails (though I'm sure it would just be easier to tell you that outright!)


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

We've settled in to a nice routine here, on Sundays I grind Whisp's claws whilst giving her the odd treat, when she sees the grinder she enthusiastically leaps onto her bed in anticipation of a tasty morsel.
I tried doing them twice a week but they ended up grinding the quick so it's once a week now.
I haven't seen any evidence of the quick receding but maybe that will take some time.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Bit embarrassed they got to this point but they're much better now!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Wow big difference! 
Penny's are getting long again, I swear they grow overnight!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Torin. said:


> What are people's opinions of teaching nail trimming position of dog lying on their back on the floor between your legs? I've seen some people do it, but it's definitely a nope for Cad, so haven't considered it before.


I think for some dogs not a problem at all .... mine would think we were starting a wrestling match tho!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Torin. said:


> What are people's opinions of teaching nail trimming position of dog lying on their back on the floor between your legs? I've seen some people do it, but it's definitely a nope for Cad, so haven't considered it before.


Our trainer now cuts the boys nails for me. Luckily they've both been trained from being tiny puppies to stand still and give a paw to have their nails trimmed. Grisha, but not Gwylim is quite happy to lie on his back as well between Gabor's legs.


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

Hi guys, looking for a bit of advice. I've been desensitising Bramble to wearing socks so it keeps her hair out of the way. She's not a fan when they first go on but she quickly forgets about them. She's also happy for me to touch her feet with the dremel and I've made contact with her nail a couple of times. She pulls back when I try and hold her toe/nail with my finger so I don't know how to move on further? Just keep trying this stage? 

Her nails have got a little too long again and she's at the groomers again tomorrow. Ideally I'd like to have been able to dremel them myself by now so that she wouldn't need them clipped, but I'm not there yet. Should I ask them to clip her nails and then continue with the dremeling practice at home, or just continue myself anyway? She didn't like having her nails clipped at the groomers last time, but I'm aware that her toes are probably a bit sensitive/sore at the moment so that could be causing the issue with me touching them. I'm not sure which is the best option.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

If the groomer is happy to do it, I'd let the groomer knock her nails back. Bramble won't like it, but if the groomer is clipping and you're grinding, hopefully there won't be too much of a negative association. 

I would practice all parts of how you will have to handle her feet without the dremel and get her really comfortable with individual toes being handled, nails squeezed, everything, then add in the dremel.


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> If the groomer is happy to do it, I'd let the groomer knock her nails back. Bramble won't like it, but if the groomer is clipping and you're grinding, hopefully there won't be too much of a negative association.
> 
> I would practice all parts of how you will have to handle her feet without the dremel and get her really comfortable with individual toes being handled, nails squeezed, everything, then add in the dremel.


Thanks! Unfortunately the groomer said her nails are fine even though they're definitely too long so she didn't clip them. I'm hoping if I continue working on it then I can get them shorter fairly quickly. I'll work more on each individual toe for a few days and see where we're at then. She's usually fine with her feet being handled and is fine with the vibration of the dremel on her paw so it seems we've taken a step backwards but that's okay. I just hate the idea of her nails causing her to be sore. I'll try and take a photo of her nails but with all her hair and her hair and nails being black it's not the easiest! Thanks for the help!


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

This is the best I can do when it comes to pics, will try and get some of all four feet later but only one paw was on offer today


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

edinoodle said:


> View attachment 475016
> View attachment 475017
> 
> 
> This is the best I can do when it comes to pics, will try and get some of all four feet later but only one paw was on offer today


I'd definitely want to take some off, I'm really surprised the groomer didn't. They're not overlong, but they could have used a trim for sure!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Thought I'd update. 
I scrolled back and found Penny's literal gotcha photo and you can see how very long her nails were. Even though she was living on the streets, middle of summer, running around on paved roads and packed, hard dirt, this is how long her nails were. And she was only a year old, 18 months at most.


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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










Clearly she needs more than pavement walks to keep her nails down. 
Here she is today. We have a regular routine of at least once a week trims, usually twice a week. I was doing one nail a night but she's just a fidget monkey and it's easier to have OH hold her and get on with it. She's not stressed about it at all, going off her body language and how happily she takes treats, just fidgety. So we have our routine doing all 4 paws and she's done in less than 5 minutes. 
This is a much better length.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

It was nail day for Thai so thought I'd grab a picture...
All nails are off the floor now... it's interesting to see how messed up the angle of some of his nails are... just imagine how bent and painful those angles would be if they were only trimmed occasionally.

















All done without food on me or even in sight or smell...cos apparently announcing that food wasn't used is a thing


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> All done without food on me or even in sight or smell...cos apparently announcing that food wasn't used is a thing


:Hilarious:Hilarious

One of Penny's things is we do "hop hop" on the kids' backs when they're doing their post-run core work and stretches. She was on one of the teens' backs - bare skin, his shirt was off, and he temporarily lost position and Penny slid and had to scramble to stay in place. My fellow coach couldn't understand how she didn't leave any scratch marks on his back. Good old dremel and appropriate length nails!

When you're in shorts 9 months a year and you have a dog who jumps up and paws as much as Penny does, you are definitely inspired to keep those nails short and smooth 

Yeah yeah I could train her not to jump, but she's easier to pick up when she's half way there already.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I’ve ordered a grinder arriving tomorrow. Sox nails are embarrassing but I just can’t find a groomer anywhere. As a general rule he’s a good boy with feet but the noise might freak him out (although it says it’s quiet I’ve never heard one any suggestions?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

If it's the same one that myself and @O2.0 has then it is really quiet so I wouldn't worry too much. If Sox does freak out over the noise then just take time conditioning the sound before putting it anywhere near his feet.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

It's quieter than an electric toothbrush, Penny doesn't mind the noise at all. And she's weird about all sorts of noises.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> It's quieter than an electric toothbrush, Penny doesn't mind the noise at all. And she's weird about all sorts of noises.


We will see how we get on he's pretty good with his feet and will do anything for cheese.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Thought that I would finally add a video of our nail day...honestly, this is the best £20 I have spent on a grinder:


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Thought that I would finally add a video of our nail day...honestly, this is the best £20 I have spent on a grinder:


That's really helpful to see one how quiet, and how the dog can move around and you can come at the nail from different angles.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sox has been a very brave boy has a licky plate of cheese and I get on. Next job Loki


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Sox has been a very brave boy has a licky plate of cheese and I get on. Next job Loki


WTG Sox!! 
Penny got her nails done today too, it's crazy to me how much they grow in just one week. OH says her food must be too nutritious we need to feed her cheaper stuff :Hilarious


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> WTG Sox!!
> Penny got her nails done today too, it's crazy to me how much they grow in just one week. OH says her food must be too nutritious we need to feed her cheaper stuff :Hilarious


Your probably similar to me and don't walk her on concrete or hard surfaces for them to wear down we are always off road. Loki is suspicious of trimmer but also tried to kiss it.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I finally succumbed and invested in a nail grinder for the Schnauzer boys. Yesterday the most part of our training session was spent with Gabor clipping their nails and getting them accustomed to the grinder. (We did stop for a coffee and pizza, all part of the boys education says she)

Grisha no problem. He happily allowed Gabor to trim a couple of his nails. Gwylim though was very suspicious so a bit more work needed building up his confidence. I'll carry on with someone else clipping their nails when necessary, but hopefully before long I'll be able to trim them myself!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> I finally succumbed and invested in a nail grinder for the Schnauzer boys. Yesterday the most part of our training session was spent with Gabor clipping their nails and getting them accustomed to the grinder. (We did stop for a coffee and pizza, all part of the boys education says she)
> 
> Grisha no problem. He happily allowed Gabor to trim a couple of his nails. Gwylim though was very suspicious so a bit more work needed building up his confidence. I'll carry on with someone else clipping their nails when necessary, but hopefully before long I'll be able to trim them myself!


Yay another nail club member! 

With hairy feet a good trick is to take an old stocking (panty hose), put it over the foot, and then push the nails through the hosiery. This keeps the hair out of the way and frees you up to trim without worrying about caught hair


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