# Do I give up with recall and exept she is untrainable?



## Betsysmum (Sep 27, 2013)

Im so upset right now. Ive had dogs my whole life. I grew up with spaniels and Labs and I have owned both cocker and springer spaniels as an adult.
I took on a pup over a year ago, I bottle fed her as she had been dumped in a box and left for dead with her siblings and mum who had all died. She has been a fantastic dog. She is so so loving and sweet and gentle. Her mum was a bichsion frise (?sp) but she looks like a small terrier (she is really quite small).
I took her to puppy classes and she did ok, I mainly needed her to be good on a lead as we do lots of walking as a family (I have a 2 and 5yr old) and i wanted some general advice as Id never had a small breed/terrier.
When we got her good on the lead we moved onto re call (just a few basic bits) and it was useless. Her attention span is zero. She has no desire to be treated with anything, we tried food and play. She loves a love but not when she is out and about. 
We live on a farm and our house is on about 7acres. She has an outdoor run which is 8ft by 20ft plus an indoor area. My problem is she runs off. We try not to let this happen, she is on a lead too and from the run, she is always on a lead when we go out etc but sometimes (and it is rare) she gets out. She will not come back. She started doing it about 6m ago but would come back at dark. The kids would cry and I would be worried sick. In the last few months she has gotten out 3 times. Twice she has run down to our neighbours farm and played with their 2 dogs (we have to trick her and corner her to catch her) and then earlier today she ran the opposite way to another neighbours and was chasing his geese. He said she wasnt nipping them but looked like she thought it was a great game.

She is so flighty. She wants to chase everything and completly ignores calls/whistles etc. The puppy trainers said they thought she was untrainable in re call. 

Does anyone know what Im doing wrong here??? Are they some dogs who just cant be trained in re call? I love her so so much and she is perfect apart from this. Do I just have to accept that she wont be trotting round the farm by my side all day (like i had hoped).

Thanks in advance for any advice/words of wisdom x


----------



## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

well first of all look at your dog run and see how she's getting out. I can't make an assessment without a picture but smaller dog, smaller holes in fencing needed. I have a golden retriever who lives at mum's who will get out if she can, so my mum had to rethink on the fencing and now we keep her in sucessfully with a solid 5ft wooden fence with wide slats. The reason she got out? Grass is always greener on the other side, she loved going to find anything edible, or even just sniffing around in other gardens.

Your dog does sound like he'll need walking on a long line for much of the time - terriers are notoriously difficult to train, but not impossible. Terriers like prey chasing and hunting, so buy a toy that enhances that instinct (I suggest a furry tug toy on a long rope) With the dog on a long line, let her walk along for a bit, then call her. If she comes, lavish with vocal praise and start running back with her to reinforce her interest in you. If she ignores you, or starts losing interest, get that toy out and start waving it around, and when she comes have a good old tug session with her and then let her go again.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I don't think you have to accept that she's untrainable but maybe find another way? 

My dog is going through a phase of chasing birds in the sky, squirrels - loads of things. We're not there yet.

My main source book has been 'Total Recall' by Pippa Mattinson. I have also taken a few tips from David Ryan's 'Stop! How to Control Predatory Prey Drive in Dogs'. Pippa's book is very helpful as we've got a lapsed recall as I worked hard to train Molly to whistle and my OH lost his whistle, began to chat to people on a walk, treat her by routine and Molly went self employed over fences. I hope I've caught it in time.

Despite my best efforts we've found that in an environment with distractions it's impossible to train so I've fenced off the area of the garden where she was barking at squirrels. I don't walk her around our regular walk but stick to the large field at the start of the walk, David Ryan suggests removing the dog from distractions whilst following his plan. In the field we practice recall particularly with my husband who she escaped from often. I accept that when faced with a squirrel she's off but I now try to control it by also building up her impulse control. I'm also adding in scent work to increase her interest. Honestly these two books have been so helpful in just two weeks and I would suggest reading them, particularly Total Recall and try a formal plan of recall. 

There is a huge difference between puppy trainers in a hall and trainers who work in a real environment so many see if you can find someone else who works outdoors. Our trainer does one to one in our homes, in fields all sorts of places which helps. It does sound like she's a bit bored and gone self employed like Molly or just hasn't been taught. I've learned that recall is a constant thing that needs maintenance like any area of training. I've also learned that I need to keep training this with my husband but that's another story


----------



## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

She sounds bored. You could try doing more with her? I mean challenge her with training and sports? 
My dogs have a high prey drive but I use it in training. I use a ball when out. They constantly seek / fetch / retrieve etc. Their reward is to get The Toy. They compete for The Toy. So our walks have a lot of interaction when training in a new dog. After a while they are happy to trot round with just the occasional game. 
She sounds like a bright dog - maybe she just needs more to occupy her? It`s so easy to forget that young dogs are like young people - they need constant guidance to ensure they go the right way.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

No dog is untrainable and no dog cannot be trained to recall.

Quite a few owners are lacking in the skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience to train it, as well as the consistency and relentlessness required.

If you want something badly enough you will achieve it.

*Why can't I get a reliable recall?*

'Come' is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.

Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…

At some point in time, usually from around 6 - 10 months, depending on the individual, "Velcro" dog will morph into "Bog off" dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

*How and when do I start with a puppy?*

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:

• Come from across the room. 
• Come from out of sight 
• Come no matter who calls
• Come even if you are busy doing something else
• Come even if you are asleep. 
• Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
• Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2. Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

• Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
• Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
• If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
• Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
• Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the "value" of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog's life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

*What about an older or rescue dog?*

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the day's food ration up into small bags (between10 - 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying "too bad" and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………

*How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?*

Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your "helper" simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it's getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog's name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Courses

How to Change Predatory Chase Behaviour in Dogs with David Ryan

Date: Saturday 30th November
Time: 9:30am - 4:30pm
Cost: £40 per person
Venue: Weston Primary School, Runcorn, WA7 4RA 
Limited spaces. Must be pre-booked. 
For more information or to book:
email [email protected] or call 07825 119 188.

Books

Line Training for Dogs
By Monika Gutman

Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts 
By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
by David Ryan

Teach your Dog to Come When Called
By Erica Peachey

Teach your Dog to Come when Called
By Katie Buvala

Training your Dog to Come When Called
By John Rogerson

Total Recall
By Pippa Mattinson

DVDs

Line Training for Dogs
By Monika Gutman

Really Reliable Recall 
By Leslie Nelson

Training the Recall
By Michael Ellis

Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called 
By Sarah Whitehead

Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name?

Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park.

If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you.

Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training.

Including:
• How to know what's rewarding for your dog and what's not
• Five times when you shouldn't call your dog!
• Using your voice to call versus using a whistle
• What to do if you call and your dog doesn't come to you
The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah

Dogtrain.co.uk

Website articles:

How to use a long line properly here (under information to download)

www.dogspsyche.co.uk

http://www.apdt.co.uk/content/files/training-tips/RECALL.pdf

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

Deposits into the Perfect Recall Account

List of Reinforcers

http://www.clickerdogs.com/distracti...yourrecall.htm

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/20...call-collapse/

How to Create a Motivating Toy

http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_f...e recall.pdf

Teaching Come | Ahimsa Dog Blog

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/

Train a

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/te..._to_you_on_cue

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/be...me-when-called


----------



## sbonnett76 (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm attending David Ryan's seminar tomorrow on how to change predatory chase behaviour in dogs so I'll report back with anything that could help you!


----------



## Betsysmum (Sep 27, 2013)

Thanks so much for the replies, lots to look at and think about.
Sorry my original post wasnt very clear, she doesnt get out of her run, it is very secure and she doesnt go in it that often, mainly if Im out all day and cant get back to let her out for the toilet. Its running out the back door when one of the kids accidently opens it without checking where she is (although my husband is just as guilty of this!!)

She gets walked at least once a day but maybe this isnt enough for her. Unfortunatly we live in a very rural area and now its dark Im a bit reluctant to take her out for a walk at night. She has a few tuggy toys which she will play with with me but isnt that fussed with toys. She isnt interested in food either which is a weird thing for me as Ive always had dogs who thought with their bellies! This dog is just so alien to me but just as loved as any Ive ever had.
A few times earlier on when she got out she caught a couple rats and mice from the barn which she seemed to LOVE doing.
I take her with me wherever I go so she is a socialble little thing but maybe I do need to do more with her.
Thanks, I will go away and have a good read!!


----------



## Betsysmum (Sep 27, 2013)

sbonnett76 said:


> I'm attending David Ryan's seminar tomorrow on how to change predatory chase behaviour in dogs so I'll report back with anything that could help you!


That would be amazing! Thank you, I hope you find it usefull!!


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

sbonnett76 said:


> I'm attending David Ryan's seminar tomorrow on how to change predatory chase behaviour in dogs so I'll report back with anything that could help you!


I'd love to hear how you get on, I simply can't get there at the moment.


----------



## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Betsysmum said:


> Sorry my original post wasnt very clear, she doesnt get out of her run, it is very secure and she doesnt go in it that often, mainly if Im out all day and cant get back to let her out for the toilet. Its running out the back door when one of the kids accidently opens it without checking where she is (although my husband is just as guilty of this!!)


I'd put a child gate up near the back door so every time someone opens the back door they check she's behind the child gate before doing so, then you can leave the door open if you want. Other than that its tougher training required for the humans as much as the dog I'm afraid!  I presume the back door doesn't lead out into an enclosed garden then?


----------



## Betsysmum (Sep 27, 2013)

Wiz201 said:


> I'd put a child gate up near the back door so every time someone opens the back door they check she's behind the child gate before doing so, then you can leave the door open if you want. Other than that its tougher training required for the humans as much as the dog I'm afraid!  I presume the back door doesn't lead out into an enclosed garden then?


It leads out into a little garden that is fenced but only one gate at one end so dog and children can escape! My husband promises he will have it finished by xmas!! Then the rest is the farm which would be impossible to keep Betsy in.
We have a child gate on the kitchen door but my 5yr old has just worked out how to use it 

Ive just spent 30 mins with her having a play and doing a bit of training and she has really gone backwards and that is due to me  Ive been lazy with her training and i can see that now so Im going to do some reading and get the clicker out of the drawer. Ive been spending the last few months working on getting my little boy ready for school and I think Ive neglected her a bit. Plus I think Ive been a bit of a defeatest after being told she was untrainable


----------



## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

There is no untrainable dog - every dog wants something (even if just their freedom!). Bolters are usually bored, so you will struggle to get her back if she runs off even if she did have a recall. I think you need to look at her whole life, not just the recall problem.

I find terriers easy to train, and although they are independant thinkers, you can still work with them. If Mum was a Bichon they are a very clever breed, so if you do not give your little dog something to do with her brain she will find her own entertainment.

With a family it can be hard to fit in dog walks and training, but I think you need to exercise both mind and body. If it's not possible now to fit this in, then I would think about fencing in some of your land close to the house, so she can't get far if she does bolt, and get her some interactive toys she can play with alone, and try to 'schedule' in some time you can build up for training. If she is terrier, then 30 mins is probably too long for training. I'd suggest 5 min sessions throughout the day, so she never knows what's coming, or when. Boiling the kettle is good training time I find - 2 or 3 minutes of something, then send the dog away again for a while. Keeps their attention span working - I think terriers don't have short attention spans, they have *too much* attention, so find it hard to concentrate on one thing for long. But if you start with short sessions you will be able to build up. And it's easier to fit in short sessions than longer ones.

Good luck!


----------



## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

I seriously doubt your dog is untrainable, what a horrible thing to be told!

However, not all dogs are created equal when it comes to how much work it takes to produce and maintain a good recall. 

The first thing you need to do to address any behaviour problem is to prevent the dog from having the opportunity to rehearse the undesirable behaviour, in this case bogging off and ignoring your recall. I am sure that hunting rats, chasing geese or playing with other dogs is EXTREMELY reinforcing for your dog. When you reinforce a behaviour, it gets stronger, and therefore you can expect an increase in bogging off and ignoring your recall. Better management is required.

Secondly, you need to manage the training environment so that it is appropriate for the dog's currently level of training and you can reasonably expect the dog to succeed. It may be that you need to train in your garden, in the lounge, in a quiet tennis court or similar until you have installed a really fantastic response to your recall, then gradually add difficulty in terms of distraction level (probably initially on a long line).

Thirdly it sounds like you have a challenge in finding a way to reinforce this particular dog. You may need to consciously build toy or food drive and there are various ways to do this, or simply to explore different types of toy or food. When you get to the more advanced proofing stage, you may be able to engineer set ups where you send your dog to go play with another dog, or release her to go hunt the mice as your reinforcer, but to get the basics you really need something much easier to work with. 

Additionally, since you have identified a specific issue with bolting through doorways, you can spend time teaching your dog to sit and wait at external doorways - not to proceed until given a verbal release. Make waiting a highly reinforcing game (although again you will need to find an effective reinforcer for this to work).


----------



## springfieldbean (Sep 13, 2010)

How sad that your trainer said she was untrainable! Don't let that get to you - it's hard enough anyway but putting effort in when you think there's a high chance none of it will work would be really hard 



Riff Raff said:


> Thirdly it sounds like you have a challenge in finding a way to reinforce this particular dog. You may need to consciously build toy or food drive and there are various ways to do this, or simply to explore different types of toy or food.


I just wanted to say I really like Riff Raff's advice to consciously build toy drive - that is what we (almost inadvertently) did with our cocker who had a massive prey chase drive, particularly with birds. We ended up making him pretty much tennis ball obsessed, so he prefers a tennis ball to anything else, and that sorted out his recall completely.

As your girl's a terrier and you already play tug with her, that might be a good toy to choose. And just play it loads with her, with a lot of enthusiasm and rewards involved! It took Sherl a couple of months I think, and then something just seemed to switch in him and the ball suddenly took priority over everything else! If we'd known what we were doing we probably could have done it quicker too 

Good luck - don't give up, I'm sure something will work for her


----------



## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I personally have accepted defeat and decided, at the moment, my girls Lucy and Katy are untrainable when it comes to recall. Breaks my heart but I've been trying to 2 years and made very little progress. For the moment have decided they will stay on lead and I'll try again in a few years when they are older and *hopefully* more sensible.

I believe its very few, but I do believe some dogs absolutely cannot learn recall, Lucy is one of them, and Katy copies!


----------



## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

I absolutely disagree, every dog has willing, you just need to find the motivation. 

Its been mentioned quite a lot on PF recently but theres a book called Terrier Centric Training which has some great ideas. Its all about finding out what makes her tick and working on it.

Saying that I am still working on it but we are getting there.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

happysaz133 said:


> I personally have accepted defeat and decided, at the moment, my girls Lucy and Katy are untrainable when it comes to recall. Breaks my heart but I've been trying to 2 years and made very little progress. For the moment have decided they will stay on lead and I'll try again in a few years when they are older and *hopefully* more sensible.
> 
> I believe its very few, but I do believe some dogs absolutely cannot learn recall, Lucy is one of them, and Katy copies!


Rubbish, no dog "cannot learn recall" however many owners do not have the skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience to teach it. However ALL owners have access to those who have.

Keeping your dogs on a lead is responsible but it will not teach your dogs anything and age alone does not impart wisdom to a dog.


----------

