# EU Referendum - Are You In or Out?



## MoggyBaby

With approx 7 weeks to go till we have to make our marks on the EU Referendum papers, have you made up your mind yet on which way you are voting?

I've put up this poll just to see if the forum comes in with the same results as the other polls which seem to be almost 50/50 with maybe a slight swing each way depending which ones you look at.

I've kept it anonymous so no-one can see who is voting on what option as this is something that is personal and folks shouldn't be having to justify their choices.

If anyone does want to speak freely on their choice, all opinions are most welcome.


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## Mr Gizmo

Out,because I'm fed up with the EU dictating to us.


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## Hanwombat

Out.


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## Bisbow

Mr Gizmo said:


> Out,because I'm fed up with the EU dictating to us.


Me to


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## MoggyBaby

I'm definitely out. People are saying we'll be worse off with a Tory govt free to do what they like but currently we have an EU delegation which seems to be able to do what they like and we have to pay £130m a week for the pleasure! 

The more Scameron bleats on about how we're better being in, the more I want out because I don't trust that slimey little oik as far as I could throw him!


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## noushka05

Currently voting IN. If France stops TTIP, I will definitely be voting IN. I am far more afraid of being at the mercy of ultra right wingers than staying in the EU which at least offers us some protection. The far rights rabid obsession with 'deregulating' everything that protects us & our environment is terrifying. Many of the key leavers (Johnson, Gove, Lawson. Farage, Paterson & so on) don't even believe in climate change. There is no hope at all of saving our environment if we leave the EU.


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## kathryn773

im in, we are too vulnerable to war if we're alone.


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## rottiepointerhouse

Definitely OUT.


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## chissy 15

Still unsure but mostly for family reasons. Swaying towards out though.


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## labradrk

100% in.


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## Little Zooey

I really wasn't sure for ages, but then I plumped for out and will stay that way without a really good reason. I believe if you go into something it should be wholeheartedly and we've only ever stayed on the edges, sucking our teeth and going "but... but...". Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should pile in and agree to everything the EU stands for either. I just think our reservations are only going to get worse. Financially we are one of the few countries who could go it alone at the moment...


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## Brrosa

Currently thinking out, but waiting for more fact based information to fully decide.


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## Satori

Oh, I though it was a belly button thread. Hmmm. As regards the EU though I am passionately on the OUT side. When you are in a hole, stop digging.


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## Happy Paws2

Definitely IN


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## Jackie C

Definitely IN. 
I want to keep the working times directive, and other workers rights the EU have provided us, as well as human rights legislation. The EU is far from perfect, but sometimes I do think it's "better the devil you know". I think the Tories would remove some elements of the WTD and I think we need that protection. I think we are stronger together. I feel Yorkshire, I feel English and British. But I also feel European. 
I certainly feel closer to Europe than America. 
I also enjoy being able to bring back cheaper wine and whisky when we go on holiday! 
I think being united is the future, and leaving would be a step backward. 

I can understand why people want to leave, but I disagree.


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## Goblin

Think the following was a great sketch.






I don't actually get to vote.


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## Jackie C

Goblin said:


> Think the following was a great sketch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't actually get to vote.


Yes, I saw this a few days ago, it's excellent!


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## ZoeM

I'm in - due to the amount of funding my city gets which has made a huge difference. Also I really doubt any of that 'extra' money people seem to think we'll get if we go out will go on anything in our country, apart from being siphoned off into fat cats' pockets. No offence to any fat cats out there in the cat forums.

It does, however make me feel dirty inside to know I actually agree with David Camoron.


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## Lilylass

Out ..... when you weigh up what it costs us and what we could actually do with that money - and all the things that are 'dictated' to us, no contest imho


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## Jackie C

ZoeM said:


> It does, however make me feel dirty inside to know I actually agree with David Camoron.


I feel I have to self-flagellate as a form of punishment for agreeing with the sociopathic weasel.


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## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> Currently voting IN. If France stops TTIP, I will definitely be voting IN. I am far more afraid of being at the mercy of ultra right wingers than staying in the EU which at least offers us some protection. The far rights rabid obsession with 'deregulating' everything that protects us & our environment is terrifying. Many of the key leavers (Johnson, Gove, Lawson. Farage, Paterson & so on) don't even believe in climate change. There is no hope at all of saving our environment if we leave the EU.


I am currently In, I was anyway, I have to say the fact that being In and the press with TTIP and essentially that was the trade agreement Obama was talking about, it did make me less certain. However I am sure TTIP would still be going ahead if we were out of Europe too, our government have already put a lot into place for it anyway and it benefits them personally.
I think I will have to read more about it with regards to TTIP, but otherwise, I am not in favour of it just being a Tory government who has total power over us and we won't have anywhere else to appeal to if they decide to become more extreme.



ZoeM said:


> I'm in - due to the amount of funding my city gets which has made a huge difference. Also I really doubt any of that 'extra' money people seem to think we'll get if we go out will go on anything in our country, apart from being siphoned off into fat cats' pockets. No offence to any fat cats out there in the cat forums.
> 
> *It does, however make me feel dirty inside to know I actually agree with David Camoron*.


Yes me too, but then I wouldn't like to agree with IDS either! Six of one hey!


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## stuaz

kathryn773 said:


> im in, we are too vulnerable to war if we're alone.


May I ask what your reasoning behind that statement is?


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## Jayne31

stuaz said:


> May I ask what your reasoning behind that statement is?


^^^ I was going to ask this as well. We weren't in the EU during World War I or II so I'm not sure how being out could make us more vulnerable than we already are.

What I would like is a simple, straightforward pros and cons list for staying in or opting out.


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## marasmum

Unusually for me I am undecided. I do think that, especially with a Tory Govt, that for such things as employment law etc even though the EU is crackers sometimes it does, to a degree, give a check and balance. BUT at the same time I think the EU model is an outdated bureaucratic gravy train for far too many with too much power over us.

As for TTIP, well, too much smoke and mirrors there isn't there?

So much like most people, I would like a real, rational, unemotional debate between the ins/outs to really get to the facts.


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## kathryn773

id rather be with europe than being attacked by those who are currently our allies


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## stuaz

kathryn773 said:


> id rather be with europe than being attacked by those who are currently our allies


I'm sorry I still don't understand. Are you implying that being in the EU prevents a country like France for example, waging war on the UK? If so I am afraid being in the EU does not stop that. And tbh it's very very very very very very unlikely a European country would or even could (or even want to :s) attack the UK, regardless of our status in the European Union.


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## Honeys mum




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## MilleD

I'm voting out, but I almost changed my mind when that weasel Gove added his voice to the out campaign (I'm involved in education finance).


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## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> I am currently In, I was anyway, I have to say the fact that being In and the press with TTIP and essentially that was the trade agreement Obama was talking about, it did make me less certain. However I am sure TTIP would still be going ahead if we were out of Europe too, our government have already put a lot into place for it anyway and it benefits them personally.
> I think I will have to read more about it with regards to TTIP, but otherwise, I am not in favour of it just being a Tory government who has total power over us and we won't have anywhere else to appeal to if they decide to become more extreme.
> 
> Yes me too, but then I wouldn't like to agree with IDS either! Six of one hey!


I think you & I are pretty much on the same wave length Emma. TTIP is the only think that is making me slightly less certain about voting in. But having listened to those who have been fighting tooth & nail against this dreadful trade deal, we have more chance of defeating it collectively with the millions in the EU who oppose it - and France is threatening to block it now . If we stay in the key brexiteeers support unfettered capitalism anyway so they will only tie us to some other awful deal that benefits only the capitalist vultures. Have you seen this Emma?  They are rigging our democracy. http://www.thecanary.co/2016/05/03/david-cameron-planning-crackdown-free-speech-silence-dissent/ Out of Europe we will have no one to turn to.

Cameron, Osborne, Truss - IDS, Farage, Hunt, Johnson: they are all morally bankrupt, I would never trust a single word that comes out of any of their lying mouths (and I suspect you feel the same lol) Although I am Green, John McDonnell sums up perfectly why I am voting IN. I'm voting in out of hope. Climate change is the single greatest threat facing the world. We have a tiny window of opportunity to address it before catastrophic climate breakdown. Non of the pro - brexit camp even believes in climate change. God help us if we are left at the mercy of a bunch of right wing extremists.


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## foxiesummer

Out. A recent newspaper article said we have 1.5 million people destitute and 300 thousand children living in poverty. Despite this we are still bringing more people into this country. No thought for the strain on the already struggling services. Too much of our money is being given away. To India who can afford a space programme. To the Chinese to train little boys to play football, the list goes on. Bringing Turkey in is a gateway to terrorists.


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## Happy Paws2

ZoeM said:


> I'm in - due to the amount of funding my city gets which has made a huge difference. Also I really doubt any of that 'extra' money people seem to think we'll get if we go out will go on anything in our country, apart from being siphoned off into fat cats' pockets. No offence to any fat cats out there in the cat forums.
> 
> It does, however make me feel dirty inside to know I actually agree with David Camoron.


Birmingham has also benifited (sorry spelling) as well new roads and for cause New street Station none of which we would have had let to the government.

and I agree with what you said about the PM.


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## CuddleMonster

No idea. I'm being bombarded with reasons to stay & reasons to leave, but don't trust any of the people who are giving me those reasons and I don't feel I have sufficient knowledge myself, so how on earth do I decide?

Wondering how the leave campaign managed to recruit Obama to their cause though. I'm assuming that's what they've done, as having the US President telling us what to do is guaranteed to make a lot of people decide to vote the opposite! Brexit fans must have been cheering!

Here in Wales we are having to decide on WAGxit...!!!


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## Happy Paws2

CuddleMonster said:


> No idea. I'm being bombarded with reasons to stay & reasons to leave, but don't trust any of the people who are giving me those reasons and I don't feel I have sufficient knowledge myself, so how on earth do I decide?
> 
> Wondering how the leave campaign managed to recruit Obama to their cause though. I'm assuming that's what they've done, as having the *US President *telling us what to do is guaranteed to make a lot of people decide to vote the opposite! Brexit fans must have been cheering!
> 
> Here in Wales we are having to decide on WAGxit...!!!


The thing is he was making a lot of sense, at first I was a little annoyed with him interfering in what we should do or not do, but after listening to him a few times I must say I agree with a lot of what he said.


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## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> I think you & I are pretty much on the same wave length Emma. TTIP is the only think that is making me slightly less certain about voting in. But having listened to those who have been fighting tooth & nail against this dreadful trade deal, we have more chance of defeating it collectively with the millions in the EU who oppose it - and France is threatening to block it now . If we stay in the key brexiteeers support unfettered capitalism anyway so they will only tie us to some other awful deal that benefits only the capitalist vultures. Have you seen this Emma?  They are rigging our democracy. http://www.thecanary.co/2016/05/03/david-cameron-planning-crackdown-free-speech-silence-dissent/ Out of Europe we will have no one to turn to.
> 
> Cameron, Osborne, Truss - IDS, Farage, Hunt, Johnson: they are all morally bankrupt, I would never trust a single word that comes out of any of their lying mouths (and I suspect you feel the same lol) Although I am Green, John McDonnell sums up perfectly why I am voting IN. I'm voting in out of hope. Climate change is the single greatest threat facing the world. We have a tiny window of opportunity to address it before catastrophic climate breakdown. Non of the pro - brexit camp even believes in climate change. God help us if we are left at the mercy of a bunch of right wing extremists.


Yes, I do believe we are.

TTIP is very scary, but so is being alone with the conservatives. To not have the NHS there for us and access to drugs we need without payment for it, it's essential for us all.

I really despair at how the country is changing, to destroy the NHS as they are is frightening, so are the many other changes.

I hadn't seen the article, I'm not surprised, soon we will be living like Russia once was or Korea, however we, as a whole, do not see it. I think it's already happening anyway, the media pushing Labours racial issues and yet not talking about the fact the Tories are running a campaign based on racism against Khan. Then there was the media not discussing the culture secretary's affair with a call girl. I am not surprised that the country is leading to this direction, really I am not. It's worrying though. I think we all have to find our voice, and quickly.


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## Calvine

CuddleMonster said:


> No idea. I'm being bombarded with reasons to stay & reasons to leave, but don't trust any of the people who are giving me those reasons and I don't feel I have sufficient knowledge myself, so how on earth do I decide?
> 
> Wondering how the leave campaign managed to recruit Obama to their cause though. I'm assuming that's what they've done, as having the US President telling us what to do is guaranteed to make a lot of people decide to vote the opposite! Brexit fans must have been cheering!
> 
> Here in Wales we are having to decide on WAGxit...!!!


Surely it was the _remain_ campaign who got Obama to tell us what to do and what would happen if we didn't? And yes, I know a few ''undecided'' people whose minds were made up by some of his comments!


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## westie~ma

Currently voting out but could change mind. 
I need more hard facts before deciding. 

Labour members of my family think I'm mad for even considering out but I refuse to just follow the herd.


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## Calvine

If I was undecided, I would think it better not to vote at all; but it is difficult for the undecided to get TRUE facts - I don't trust or believe much of what I hear or read any more to be honest.


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## MontyMaude

I think I'm out but again I'm not sure, and don't believe or trust the politicians at all.


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## LinznMilly

I'm undecided. So far, the only bit of actual documentation I have is from the gov trying to persuade me to vote In, and that alone makes me want to vote Out, just for devilment's sake and sheer childish stubbornness.

But, of course I realize that this decision is far too important to be stubborn, so I want some propaganda-free information, and that is woefully lacking. I think, what makes it harder is that no one really knows what will happen either way.

I have toyed with the idea of not voting at all, which if I don't get some facts and figures, I might do.

I'll go back and read the rest of the replies (read the first page) I haven't voted on the poll yet, will do later.


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## LinznMilly

westie~ma said:


> Currently voting out but could change mind.
> I need more hard facts before deciding.
> 
> Labour members of my family think I'm mad for even considering out but I refuse to just follow the herd.


My go-to voice of reason is my dad... Except when it comes to politics. He's voting Out because he "doesn't want to be ruled by Brussels". But then, he reads The Sun (or used to - don't know about now) so a lot of his political beliefs are media-inspired.


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## Arnie83

In.

We pay a lot into the EU but all independent studies conclude that we get more back than we pay in, which is overlooked by those who claim that we can spend the money better elsewhere since we won't have it to spend.

I'm not bothered about laws being made in Brussels rather than Westminster and can't think of one that has affected me to any great extent in the last 40 years. I hear lots of people talk about making our own laws, but when I ask they can't name an EU one which has really affected them. The biggest external decision influencing my life has been that of the mortgage rate, and that's set by a completely unelected body in London under the Chairmanship of a Canadian national. 

Immigration has benefited the economy, and puts less pressure on services than is too often claimed. And without it the NHS would fall over. And we're all descended from immigrants anyway. And more immigrants come from outside the EU than inside, so I can't see the numbers changing too much anyway. Something should be done about the concentration of immigrants in some areas, though. Don't know what.

But most of all, because I think the world is on a better course if nations come together rather than splitting up. Too many of the world's problems are caused by tribalism, and the more we can do to lessen it, the better, in my opinion.


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## Jesthar

I have to confess I have no idea, and so currently probably won't vote. Which will be a rarity for me on big issues, but anything other than scaremongering is hard to come by, and I don't like to cast a vote when I don't understand the consequences.

For similar reasons I'm not going to vote in the Police Commissioner election today, either, as I've never heard of any of the candidiates until they wanted electing...


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## Mrsred

Most definitely OUT!

For a start, the EU is completely undemocratic, the unknown and the unelected make decisions that directly effect us all the time. If it's not fiddling about with what wattage of vacuum cleaners and hair dryers we should be allowed to use (it would be laughable if it wasn't such a colossal waste of time, money and busy bodying) it's enabling violent, convicted criminals to waste even more money complaining their human rights have been infringed in some ludicrous way whilst they are in prison.

Greece and Spain now have massive unemployment and a lot of Greece now have quite early retirement, bolstered by whom, I wonder??? Yet today in the papers I read Britain had to fire a warning flare at the Spanish in the waters off Gibraltar as they were in, poking around. Yes, we are all in it together, what age do men now have to work to here before they receive state pension??? 

I don't quite understand the sentiment that without the EU, we will all suddenly be at the mercy of the Tory overlords. They were democratically voted in and we (well, I can't I'm in NI but can vote in the EU referendum) can democratically vote them out again - the Torys back tracked on the whole family credit debacle and that had nothing to do with the EU whatsoever. 

I hate the whole, 'safer in' spiel, safer from what exactly? It's almost like we are infants in a nursery that need watched over, guided and will make a mess of things if left to our own devices.

My husband and I were discussing the referendum and it made me think of when London held the Olympics. The world and his wife were all out saying it was going to be a disaster, we couldn't organise something so big, we would be a laughing stock and just look how it turned out. We can do anything! How sad we have a leader who gives his people so little faith in themselves and their country. 

If we leave, I think Holland may well be next to hold a referendum, we are needed because we are a wealthy country, end of.


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## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> We pay a lot into the EU but all independent studies conclude that we get more back than we pay in.


We pay in £18bn each year. We get a rebate of £5bn. We get £4bn out as subsidies. So our net membership fee is £9bn per year and growing. Simple facts. Not so hard to grasp.


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## Sh N

As the situation currently stands, I'm going to vote in- I don't like how much money we lose and what we stand to lose- but here is my reasoning, and the only reason there is.
As a person who is directly affected by the manufacturing industry, we need the freedom of movement and trade to be able to export our services (we can only export engineering services) with manufacturing dying in this country- as it is no longer viable to manufacture here.
If we were out of the EU as it stands now, science and engineering would die in this country, and die a rotten, neglected death- because we don't have enough funding for them. Whatever is being propped up at the minute is because of cooperation within the EU countries. Without this cooperation, I would lose my livelihood, and because my movements are restricted (if we would be out), I would struggle to get something else in this country- and all the investment I have made (paying NI and Taxes and pension) could be a big waste.
Any livelihood then in this country will be reduced to a financial/ banking type thing which is London centric.
Once, my profession used to be very high in demand and specialism, and I have spent most of my life working and qualifying to this level- with the oil and the steel industry failing and no one trying to resuscitate it- there is not much demand left to what I do. After reaching such levels of specialism (working towards three degrees and accreditations), I cannot afford to retrain myself to the next job that is in vogue.
We could downgrade our membership, yes, but wanting it out is extremely perilous.


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## Goblin

Satori said:


> We pay in £18bn each year. We get a rebate of £5bn. We get £4bn out as subsidies. So our net membership fee is £9bn per year and growing. Simple facts. Not so hard to grasp.


Hardly. Lots of other grants etc come from the EU coffers including research etc which are not covered by your subsidy figure.

MrsRed, As for undemocratic, house of Lords has more power with making things law than any bureacrat in the EU. Only governents (elected) and MEPs (elected) can make something legally binding to member states. As an alternative to the EU we could join the WTO whose paperwork/rules/regulations are expanding rapidly. You don't vote them in either.

You mention vacuum wattage etc but fail to consider the fact the UK now has clean beaches thanks to similar regulations. How about employee protection, I am sure you count them as a nuisance. Then there's the "imposed" human rights which were created and introduced by the UK to the EU.Why is it only the UK seems to suffer from them?

Are we not powerful enough to stand up on our own. How when we cannot even seem to stand up to the rest of the EU?


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## Arnie83

Satori said:


> We pay in £18bn each year. We get a rebate of £5bn. We get £4bn out as subsidies. So our net membership fee is £9bn per year and growing. Simple facts. Not so hard to grasp.


We do a lot of business with the single market that we wouldn't do if we weren't members of the EU. (It is the main reason why both employer and employee organisations are in favour of Remaining.) That business increases our GDP, profits, personal income, and thereby tax income. The studies conclude that this outweighs the bald fees paid to the EU by quite a lot.

Also, leaving the EU does not necessarily mean that the payments will cease. Norway is not a member and still pays considerable fees. If we enjoy the benefits of the single market, it is not unreasonable to expect to pay something towards the administration of that market. The estimates I have seen suggest that our contribution would maybe halve. I don't suppose we would get the subsidies, though.

Not quite such simple facts, but still not hard to grasp.

It isn't the case that we would just be able to spend our 'subscription' money on something else, because the available money would fall.


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## MoggyBaby

I'm really glad I started this thread because we are getting far better, comprehensive information here - on both sides - than the politicians and spin doctors are giving us. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post their views and opinions.


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## Lurcherlad

Satori said:


> We pay in £18bn each year. We get a rebate of £5bn. We get £4bn out as subsidies. So our net membership fee is £9bn per year and growing. Simple facts. Not so hard to grasp.


Not to mention all the obscene waste that goes on. MEP's benefit from a ridiculous "expenses" system which doesn't always require receipts and certain things are set. Such as flying from London to Brussels has been costed at X, but if an MEP manages to buy their ticket for Y which is considerably less, they still get X!

They also get an extra amount of £1,300 which they can spend even though everything is supplied for them, office space, stationery, etc.

And there is a third EU parliament building in Luxembourg lying redundant but costing a fortune to mothball!


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## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> We do a lot of business with the single market that we wouldn't do if we weren't members of the EU.


That's just an assumption that some have built into their models. I do not accept it for a minute. The countries of Europe will still exist if we leave the EU. Our goods and services will continue to sell in other countries so long as we continue make attractive offers.


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## Sh N

foxiesummer said:


> Out. A recent newspaper article said we have 1.5 million people destitute and 300 thousand children living in poverty. Despite this we are still bringing more people into this country. No thought for the strain on the already struggling services. Too much of our money is being given away. To India who can afford a space programme. To the Chinese to train little boys to play football, the list goes on. Bringing Turkey in is a gateway to terrorists.


Yes, India can afford a space programme, agreed, but it is done on a shoestring budget. We've never had NASA's budget. And to the aid, it doesn't go to the government- most of it goes to Non Government Organisations. As far as I am aware, NGOs and Non Profits can get funding from where they want- and its peanuts- its always been peanuts. 
India doesn't get aid anymore. End of.

I'm sorry if this sounds defensive, but all work visa holders (people within the points based system) in the UK don't get any benefits or credits. It took me 8 years of being an immigrant and lots of hoop jumping (and spending thousands of pounds in visa fees every two years) to prove my loyalty to this country and get citizenship. I am well integrated into british society and I have done my bit to be here. I have a very respectable job and pay in a lot to the NI contribution- which I'm not allowed to use if I lose my job. Immigrants from outside the EU lead a very restricted life. Please don't tar them with the "bloody immigrant taking our jobs" brush.

If native Brits are not bothered to slog for six years through uni and keep their accreditations up to date in a shortage skill occupation- like engineering or nursing, don't blame the few who honestly eke out a living.

Why I chose to come here? I chose to come here because my chosen field had a lot of promise, and I can work in a hugely male dominated industry without experiencing harassment, sexism and discrimination. I earned everything I have by my own merit and sheer hard work. I didn't steal any one's job.


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## Sh N

Satori said:


> Our goods and services will continue to sell in other countries so long as we continue make attractive offers.


I've first hand experienced what will happen. My company has begun outsourcing work to offices in India and far east to keep costs down. You pay those engineers half the price because their cost of living is low and they churn out the same job to an acceptable standard.

What is going on in the UK office? We're all being made redundant because there are engineers in India who can be trained. Thats whats happening.


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## Satori

Goblin said:


> Hardly. Lots of other grants etc come from the EU coffers including research etc which are not covered by your subsidy figure.


That's interesting. Do you have a source? Here's what the treasury show for 2015


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## Satori

Sh N said:


> I've first hand experienced what will happen. My company has begun outsourcing work to offices in India and far east to keep costs down. You pay those engineers half the price because their cost of living is low and they churn out the same job to an acceptable standard.
> 
> What is going on in the UK office? We're all being made redundant because there are engineers in India who can be trained. Thats whats happening.


Good response, but to what point I don't know. What your company is doing sound like a perfectly sensible business strategy but what has it to do with UK exports to EU countries?


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## Sh N

Satori said:


> Good response, but to what point I don't know. What your company is doing sound like a perfectly sensible business strategy but what has it to do with UK exports to EU countries?


Sorry I should have finished 

We're being allocated to EU projects, and to support EU businesses when they bid for projects- because there is free movement and free trade. People are able to spend 3 days in Copenhagen/ Milan and 2 days here- because we're able to move and be fluid about our location. If we begin to sell our services to non EU countries, we- as an office would have to massively undercut our prices to bid- because industry bids for the lowest price! We don't have the edge that we used to have anymore! We're already gripping with pay freezes and things, and undercutting will send us into loss. It is unsustainable to undercut here.

You may ask, why don't you sell services in UK- we can't because there is hardly any industry left here- thats all been slaughtered already. Whatever is surviving is also slowly being done with. If you look at physical proximity, the only reason we exist as an office is to provide support to manufacturing in EU- you can't expect us to still operate if free movement is cut off.

For the company, it is a business strategy. For me, if I will be made redundant, it is a deluge of other engineers into the already flooded job market (thanks Oil and Gas, and steel) and it will be near impossible to move elsewhere because my movements will be restricted.

Bottom line: Lots of companies will cease operations because free trade and free movements will be restricted.


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## Arnie83

Satori said:


> That's just an assumption that some have built into their models. I do not accept it for a minute. The countries of Europe will still exist if we leave the EU. Our goods and services will continue to sell in other countries so long as we continue make attractive offers.


It certainly assumes that post-Brexit we will not have the same access to the single market. But I for one can't see any outcome where that won't be the case.

What is the point of the EU if it gives the same trade terms to non-members as members? And asks the members to pay for the privilege while letting non-members to get it for free?

How can Germany, France, Italy & Spain protect the EU which they cherish so much for its own sake if they let members leave without any negative consequences?

Yes of course there will still be trade; it won't just stop. But it will, in some cases, be more expensive, and that means it will reduce. And in some cases it will be reduced by quotas. How big those reductions are depend on negotiations over the next X years, during which uncertainty in the financial markets will also disrupt (reduce) trade. And Japan has just become the latest nation to say that their investment in the UK will reduce because they use us as a gateway to the single market.

There is simply no way that we will not see a reduction in trade (= business) and thereby a reduction in comparative income. It's daft to suggest otherwise.


----------



## LinznMilly

Sh N said:


> I didn't steal any one's job.


It must be hard, being an immigrant and hearing this kind of nonsense slung around by those who read the papers and don't bother to put their brains in gear.



Sh N said:


> If native Brits are not bothered to slog for six years through uni and keep their accreditations up to date in a shortage skill occupation- like engineering or nursing, don't blame the few who honestly eke out a living.


Meh. Some just don't try hard enough to get a job, then blame those who do commit themselves and make a success of it. Some people just like to blame others for their misfortune, and not stopping to think what they might have done differently to make their situation better for themselves. It's easier to blame others than turn the blame finger inwards and change what you (general you) don't like about yourself.



Satori said:


> That's interesting. Do you have a source? Here's what the treasury show for 2015
> 
> View attachment 270089


I found that chart useful. Thank you for posting it.


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> That's interesting. Do you have a source? Here's what the treasury show for 2015


Look at the title of your chart. Notice the "public sector receipt" ? This from your source:

"...The EU makes some payments directly to the private sector, for example to carry out research activities. These payments do not appear in the public sector's accounts. It is estimated
that in 2013, these receipts were worth £1.4 billion. *These payments are not included in Tables* 3.A or 3.C-F, which provide data on public sector receipts only..."

Do you have the 2015 figures for private sector funding including joint cross border projects? I do not.

You may also be interested in http://www.universitiesforeurope.co...nions-contribution-to-UK-higher-education.pdf and consider future knock on costs in terms of innovation etc.


----------



## Mrsred

I most certainly have never said anywhere, ever about 'bloody immigrants taking our jobs' and have never used 'bloody immigrants' as YOU put it for my reasoning in voting out and find it a disingenuous ruse used by many in the in camp that you are somehow racist for wanting out of the EU. 

My daughter is mid A levels and has constant careers meetings, visits to uni's etc and they are crying out for STEM related qualifications now. A few of the degrees she has been looking at, all science based have final year in America, not a one have I seen have a darn thing to do with Europe, unless you are studying a language. The U.K.'s largest cyber security firm is here, in NI, part of the U.K and housed in a new science park, with massive employment via America. And I will be the first to say NI milked the EU for all it was worth. 

There's another lovely subsidy for you, EU pouring money into NI, peace, reconciliation - what we really got was the paramilitaries of both persuasions removing their balaclavas, holding their hands out for money for 'community' projects in their respective segregated areas and funnelling it off to fund racketeering, drugs, punishment beatings that are still going on right now. Delightful.


----------



## Sh N

Goblin said:


> You may also be interested in http://www.universitiesforeurope.co...nions-contribution-to-UK-higher-education.pdf and consider future knock on costs in terms of innovation etc.


That is my BIGGEST fear!!! Everything research based will be culled, slaughtered and de funded. We can't live with a few banks having their HQs in London!! Without university research, industry and engineering/ science based services will never survive!


----------



## Sh N

Mrsred said:


> I most certainly have never said anywhere, ever about 'bloody immigrants taking our jobs' and have never used 'bloody immigrants' as YOU put it for my reasoning in voting out and find it a disingenuous ruse used by many in the in camp that you are somehow racist for wanting out of the EU.


First, I apologise, but I didn't quote your post. Second- Posts I believe are quoted for context- to let people know what I am taking about. Third. I've had this said to my face by someone- who is not a very great person. Fourth, I have not accused anyone of being racist, I have not even made the implication. No one is racist when it comes to truly choosing what is best for their country. I have just spoken for myself.


----------



## Satori

Sh N said:


> Sorry I should have finished
> 
> We're being allocated to EU projects, and to support EU businesses when they bid for projects- because there is free movement and free trade. People are able to spend 3 days in Copenhagen/ Milan and 2 days here- because we're able to move and be fluid about our location. If we begin to sell our services to non EU countries, we- as an office would have to massively undercut our prices to bid- because industry bids for the lowest price! We don't have the edge that we used to have anymore! We're already gripping with pay freezes and things, and undercutting will send us into loss. It is unsustainable to undercut here.
> 
> You may ask, why don't you sell services in UK- we can't because there is hardly any industry left here- thats all been slaughtered already. Whatever is surviving is also slowly being done with. If you look at physical proximity, the only reason we exist as an office is to provide support to manufacturing in EU- you can't expect us to still operate if free movement is cut off.
> 
> For the company, it is a business strategy. For me, if I will be made redundant, it is a deluge of other engineers into the already flooded job market (thanks Oil and Gas, and steel) and it will be near impossible to move elsewhere because my movements will be restricted.
> 
> Bottom line: Lots of companies will cease operations because free trade and free movements will be restricted.


I don't accept the premise that companies such as your will be unable to conduct business, bid for projects and run projects in Euroean countries if we leave the EU. Lots of American companies, for example, do exactly that and US is not a member of the EU.


----------



## Mrsred

I apologise also @Sh N , I didn't mean literally that you were accusing me - oh, sometimes things come across very badly online!


----------



## Sh N

Satori said:


> I don't accept the premise that companies such as your will be unable to conduct business, bid for projects and run projects in Euroean countries if we leave the EU. Lots of American companies, for example, do exactly that and US is not a member of the EU.


Well, acceptable or not- I'll be the first one to see knock on effects if we ever vote out- and it scares me. Pay freeze this year, made redundant next because the UK office operations are unsustainable. Unable to move because some country will want to impose the whole 'work permit' route for me again. I've done this for eight years with the hope that I will be rid with for life- I don't want to do it again!
Free trade and movement are important, and affect me at a very basic level. I know that because I have jumped hoops at every stage.

PS: I work for an American company, and so does my OH. We're both a little scared of our future here after investing so much of our time, energy and resources.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> It certainly assumes that post-Brexit we will not have the same access to the single market. But I for one can't see any outcome where that won't be the case.
> 
> What is the point of the EU if it gives the same trade terms to non-members as members? And asks the members to pay for the privilege while letting non-members to get it for free?
> 
> How can Germany, France, Italy & Spain protect the EU which they cherish so much for its own sake if they let members leave without any negative consequences?
> 
> Yes of course there will still be trade; it won't just stop. But it will, in some cases, be more expensive, and that means it will reduce. And in some cases it will be reduced by quotas. How big those reductions are depend on negotiations over the next X years, during which uncertainty in the financial markets will also disrupt (reduce) trade. And Japan has just become the latest nation to say that their investment in the UK will reduce because they use us as a gateway to the single market.
> 
> There is simply no way that we will not see a reduction in trade (= business) and thereby a reduction in comparative income. It's daft to suggest otherwise.


Yes of course there will be a short term reduction trade. Long term.... We would both be guessing and I assume we would make different guesses. However, if there is a short term trade reduction that is in both directions and proportional to today's trade then that just means a reduction in our balance of trade deficit with the EU. The UK runs the worst balance of trade deficit of any member state. Reducing that short term is fine by me.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Look at the title of your chart. Notice the "public sector receipt" ? This from your source:
> 
> "...The EU makes some payments directly to the private sector, for example to carry out research activities. These payments do not appear in the public sector's accounts. It is estimated
> that in 2013, these receipts were worth £1.4 billion. *These payments are not included in Tables* 3.A or 3.C-F, which provide data on public sector receipts only..."
> 
> Do you have the 2015 figures for private sector funding including joint cross border projects? I do not.
> 
> You may also be interested in http://www.universitiesforeurope.co...nions-contribution-to-UK-higher-education.pdf and consider future knock on costs in terms of innovation etc.


Thank you.


----------



## Sh N

Mrsred said:


> I apologise also @Sh N , I didn't mean literally that you were accusing me - oh, sometimes things come across very badly online!


We're all good here- all this is a healthy debate!



Mrsred said:


> My daughter is mid A levels and has constant careers meetings, visits to uni's etc and they are crying out for STEM related qualifications now. A few of the degrees she has been looking at, all science based have final year in America, not a one have I seen have a darn thing to do with Europe, unless you are studying a language. The U.K.'s largest cyber security firm is here, in NI, part of the U.K and housed in a new science park, with massive employment via America. And I will be the first to say NI milked the EU for all it was worth.


Women in STEM is a cause extremely close to my heart- as I overcame a lot of personal and professional obstacles to get to my goals in life. I am so happy she is inclining to a career in STEM. We need more girls (even guys) in there!


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Yes of course there will be a short term reduction trade. Long term.... We would both be guessing and I assume we would make different guesses. However, if there is a short term trade reduction that is in both directions and proportional to today's trade then that just means a reduction in our balance of trade deficit with the EU. The UK runs the worst balance of trade deficit of any member state. Reducing that short term is fine by me.


Long term (post Brexit) my guess (I'm an economics graduate, so it's a bit of an educated guess) would be that we will be trading a bit less than we would had we stayed in the EU, but with so many other factors in play over that time period it would be difficult to attribute.

From a purely personal point of view I stand more chance of getting work over the short and medium term if we stay in, as, on average, will most others.

But I'll be voting In because I think it's better for the world, not just for me.


----------



## porps

Definitely in if they send me postal vote. For selfish reasons since im a brit living in another eu country, and because i think you can wave good bye to your human rights if the tories don't have eu laws to keep them at least a little in check


----------



## Arnie83

It's also worth pointing out that those studies which show a small economic gain by leaving the EU rely heavily on a 'bonfire of regulations' to make the figures favourable. The LSE (among others) point out that by far the most onerous of those regulations are the ones that protect workers rights, health & safety in the workplace, and the environment. Keep those protections in place and every study shows that the UK loses out; the debate is by how much.

Of course, there are other factors which should influence voting intentions.


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> Yes, I do believe we are.
> 
> TTIP is very scary, but so is being alone with the conservatives. To not have the NHS there for us and access to drugs we need without payment for it, it's essential for us all.
> 
> I really despair at how the country is changing, to destroy the NHS as they are is frightening, so are the many other changes.
> 
> I hadn't seen the article, I'm not surprised, soon we will be living like Russia once was or Korea, however we, as a whole, do not see it. I think it's already happening anyway, the media pushing Labours racial issues and yet not talking about the fact the Tories are running a campaign based on racism against Khan. Then there was the media not discussing the culture secretary's affair with a call girl. I am not surprised that the country is leading to this direction, really I am not. It's worrying though. I think we all have to find our voice, and quickly.


I feel real despair too. Everything I hold dear is being destroyed for greed. What an awful country we are becoming. And the msm are a disgrace. The BBC especially so because people trust it.

Jeremy Corbyn blows his nose - the media are all over it. The tories lie, cheat, asset strip our country, national debt spirals out of control, the party rip bits of each other - and its tumble weed. The tories are now being investigated for ELECTORAL FRAUD This is about as big as it gets. So why isn't it all over the news? Where is the BBC?  This is conclusive proof the BBC is biased - as if more proof were needed! It looks like we have an illegitimate government and the once respected BBC are now reduced to propaganda & filthy smears for the tories. While ever the msm is a mouthpiece for right wing propaganda we can never have a true democracy. Its exactly the same over in the USA with Bernie Sanders. He's either sidelined or smeared. The establishment will do all in its power to maintain the status quo.

Maybe the BBC will mention the Tory Party electoral fraud scandal now the elections are over? http://www.thecanary.co/2016/05/04/bbcs-pro-tory-bias-twitter-users-arms-tweets/ http://evolvepolitics.com/twitter-erupts-bbc-struggle-keep-tory-election-fraud-wraps-may-elections/



Calvine said:


> Surely it was the _remain_ campaign who got Obama to tell us what to do and what would happen if we didn't? And yes, I know a few ''undecided'' people whose minds were made up by some of his comments!


There are two camps in the remain campaign. Cameron's - who wants to give more power to corporations via TTIP. The trade deal Obama was talking about. And the Green party & Labour who want to remain to make a better europe where people and the environment are represented NOT corporate interests.

So you will find many in the remain camp are fiercely opposed to TTIP So when Obama said the trade deal is less likely if we leave the EU, it had the opposite effect & actually made people consider voting out.


----------



## grumpy goby

Mrsred said:


> I most certainly have never said anywhere, ever about 'bloody immigrants taking our jobs' and have never used 'bloody immigrants' as YOU put it for my reasoning in voting out and find it a disingenuous ruse used by many in the in camp that you are somehow racist for wanting out of the EU.
> 
> My daughter is mid A levels and has constant careers meetings, visits to uni's etc and they are crying out for STEM related qualifications now. A few of the degrees she has been looking at, all science based have final year in America, not a one have I seen have a darn thing to do with Europe, unless you are studying a language. The U.K.'s largest cyber security firm is here, in NI, part of the U.K and housed in a new science park, with massive employment via America. And I will be the first to say NI milked the EU for all it was worth.
> 
> There's another lovely subsidy for you, EU pouring money into NI, peace, reconciliation - what we really got was the paramilitaries of both persuasions removing their balaclavas, holding their hands out for money for 'community' projects in their respective segregated areas and funnelling it off to fund racketeering, drugs, punishment beatings that are still going on right now. Delightful.


/offtopic

Can I ask what fields she is looking at? I am a STEM ambassador and a member of a few industry groups which is always sending out positions, graduate opportunities, apprentice and education opportunities in the UK/Europe I may be able to send forward 

We do need more people (men and women) going into the "hard" subjects - its not easy for anyone and as a girl there will be a whole 'nother set of challenges ahead for her, but totally rewarding!


----------



## noushka05

Most of the talk coming from the brexit camp has been about 'deregulating' & cutting red tape. Like its a good thing!I find that terrifying. These regulations protect us, our environment & animals. This is what the EU has done for us.


----------



## Satori

Case closed....

*EU referendum: Donald Trump backs Brexit*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36219612


----------



## Honeys mum

Five Countries Join

Just another reason, IMO if you read this article.


----------



## Blaise in Surrey

I have read, and read, and read on this subject and still have not made up my mind. So, feel free to convince me one way or the other! (Btw, I am not politically naive or disinterested - had the radio on by the bed all night so I could drift in and out of the local election results!)


----------



## LinznMilly

noushka05 said:


> Most of the talk coming from the brexit camp has been about 'deregulating' & cutting red tape. Like its a good thing!I find that terrifying. These regulations protect us, our environment & animals. This is what the EU has done for us.


That reads like the closing credits of a film. :Wideyed

I think I could be swayed ... But reading the BBC link above, got me thinking ... If we join the EU, where would it end? It would be naive to think that the United States of Europe would be the end of the matter.

I just can't decide if that would be a good thing or bad. Good because it unifies the people. Bad because the Powers that Be will eventually have world domination... :Wideyed ..

Conspiracy, anyone?


----------



## Mrsred

OFF TOPIC! 
@grumpy goby daughters main interest is pathology but looking seriously at biochemistry or genetics. 
A Levels are chemistry, maths, biology and ICT. A real hard slog!


----------



## Mrsred

Back on topic, did anyone watch question time last night? 
Again, Brexit was top topic, the show unfortunately ended up with Michael O'leary promoting the EU via stupendous advertising of RyanAir. Without him or the EU we would still be paying £500 in flights to Paris supposedly which, having flown Ryanair myself they work out no cheaper when you factor in high season, baggage and taxes. 
Another member of the panel put it to them that EU suits big business like him but kills the small businessperson and people agreed. 
I should also point out that Michael O'leary refused to put Ryanair into Belfast many years ago as they would not capitulate to his demands. This ended in a flounce that he would be doing all his business in ROI (he is an Irishman, don't forget and not British) but has changed his tune last week that he will indeed start flights from Belfast after all these years. Not to tourist destinations, but three separate destinations in Poland. Why? Because it is financial viable for him, his interests certainly aren't the average joe on the streets. 

It was also brought up that we would like to end the transport of live cattle to other EU nations. Unfortunately the EU won't allow this. 

My honest view is that we may hit a few bumps on the road if we leave but we will be ok, remain and we are swallowed by a behemoth that we will never be able to hold to account.


----------



## Sh N

grumpy goby said:


> /offtopic
> 
> Can I ask what fields she is looking at? I am a STEM ambassador and a member of a few industry groups which is always sending out positions, graduate opportunities, apprentice and education opportunities in the UK/Europe I may be able to send forward
> 
> We do need more people (men and women) going into the "hard" subjects - its not easy for anyone and as a girl there will be a whole 'nother set of challenges ahead for her, but totally rewarding!


Fellow STEM ambassador here!!


----------



## Calvine

LinznMilly said:


> I'm undecided. So far, the only bit of actual documentation I have is from the gov trying to persuade me to vote In, and that alone makes me want to vote Out, just for devilment's sake and sheer childish stubbornness.


 @LinznMilly :The amount of money they spent on that ''information'' actually convinced many people to vote OUT. I believe it was in excess of £9 million....maybe more, I always take what they say with a pinch of salt (or two).


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Just another reason, IMO if you read this article.


All it takes is one country to say no to another country joining. Turkey has been wanting to join for ages but has been prevented from doing so at least until they demonstrate commitment to human rights. This is yet another example of the BREXIT fear campaign rather than trying to base the discussion on facts.



Mrsred said:


> My honest view is that we may hit a few bumps on the road if we leave but we will be ok, remain and we are swallowed by a behemoth that we will never be able to hold to account.


Funny how with all our clout to enable us to make it alone, we cannot hold clout within the EU. Maybe if we actually participated instead of using MEP elections simply as protest vote to the current government. Maybe if we participated in thing like the Fishery Commision (Farage as a member attended 1 out of 42 meetings) instead of simply use the EU as a scapegoat for problems we cause ourselves. Maybe if we pushed for change within the EU which is already happening to reduce the bureacracy and red tape. You cannot complain about being "swallowed" when you don't do anything.


----------



## Mrsred

Ah yes, the fishery commission. The fishermen of Northern Ireland who are part of generations of that trade, the only source of income for areas such as portavogie are all sitting on their hands, doing nothing at all as they have watched their livelihoods, their heritage all but obliterated by the EU.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Mrsred said:


> Ah yes, the fishery commission. The fishermen of Northern Ireland who are part of generations of that trade, the only source of income for areas such as portavogie are all sitting on their hands, doing nothing at all as they have watched their livelihoods, their heritage all but obliterated by the EU.


The same for the islands in the north of Scotland!! My father lives in Shetland and he has told me several times about how bad it is up there now for fishing due to all the EU regulations. Small islands like these need to fish to live.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Five Countries Join
> 
> Just another reason, IMO if you read this article.


We have a veto. They don't join unless we - and all the other 27 members - say they can.

And I'd be very surprised if transitional arrangements were not very much changed between now and when they are in a position to join, which won't be for a while.

And f the arrangements aren't changed to our satisfaction .... we have a veto.


----------



## Colliebarmy

MoggyBaby said:


> The same for the islands in the north of Scotland!! My father lives in Shetland and he has told me several times about how bad it is up there now for fishing due to all the EU regulations. Small islands like these need to fish to live.


Meanwhile EU member state factory ships scoop up quotas and move on...


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> All it takes is one country to say no to another country joining. Turkey has been wanting to join for ages but has been prevented from doing so at least until they demonstrate commitment to human rights. This is yet another example of the BREXIT fear campaign rather than trying to base the discussion on facts.





Arnie83 said:


> We have a veto. They don't join unless we - and all the other 27 members - say they can.


Stated in that article is,

The U.K. goverment has agreed to send £2 billion of U.K. tax payers money to help them join the E.U. as quickly as possible.
Do you think that is the right thing to be doing.


----------



## ClaireLouise

Im offically on the fence and have no idea which side i will fall. Im reading all i can and trying to read undiased information which is near impossible


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Stated in that article is,
> 
> The U.K. goverment has agreed to send £2 billion of U.K. tax payers money to help them join the E.U. as quickly as possible.
> Do you think that is the right thing to be doing.


Hint.. just as you read it on the internet, doesn't mean it is true. Which document or agreement is this? Was this forced, if not why didn't the government simply say no? After all they were democratically elected and could do so.



Mrsred said:


> their heritage all but obliterated by the EU.


Yet the people who are part of the process and could change things don't even bother to attend. Yep, that's a sure way to influence things. How would you control overfishing by the way or shouldn't we bother to control it?


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> Hint.. just as you read it on the internet, doesn't mean it is true. Which document or agreement is this? Was this forced, if not why didn't the government simply say no? After all they were democratically elected and could do so.[/QUOT


 Thankyou for the advice Goblin, but I am not stupid enough to believe everything I read on the internet . But that statement was on the BBC news the end of. last month


----------



## emmaviolet

Honeys mum said:


> Thankyou for the advice Goblin, but I am not stupid enough to believe everything I read on the internet . But that statement was on the BBC news the end of. last month


I wouldn't believe much on BBC news any more!


----------



## porps

Honeys mum said:


> Thankyou for the advice Goblin, but I am not stupid enough to believe everything I read on the internet . But that statement was on the BBC news the end of. last month


the bbc is as far from a trustworthy source as you can get. It's controlled media and little more than a right wing propaganda machine these days (maybe it used to be different). They only report what fits thier agenda. events that don't will be ignored or respun to fit what they want you to think.


----------



## Honeys mum

porps said:


> the bbc is as far from a trustworthy source as you can get. It's controlled media and little more than a right wing propaganda machine these days (maybe it used to be different). They only report what fits thier agenda. events that don't will be ignored or respun to fit what they want you to think.


I do agree with you on that porps, you have only to watch Question Time to see that. I understand that the audiance for that is hand picked.
But IMO it comes across that the BBC are more for the In vote, than the out vote.

I made up my own mind from day one which way I would be voting. I don't need any one to tell me what's what, because no one really truly knows what will happen,, whether we stay in or out. I think it's a case of wait and see, and vote which ever way you chose to. I do hope people will take the time to vote.


----------



## Calvine

Honeys mum said:


> I do hope people will take the time to vote


@Honeys mum: I am always really shocked (and disappointed) when I read how very FEW people bother to turn out to vote for anything...sometimes not much more than 30%. They have excuses such as , ''It doesn't matter what anyone thinks 'they' will do as 'they' like'', or ''The voting is rigged, all the postal votes are always fiddled''. It took a lot of effort to get votes for women but I know a lot who won't get off their asses to go and fill out a ballot form. Then they whinge and whine about what they are stuck with.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Now that Donald Trump endorsed Brexit we can feel so much better about it..

...you don't say!


----------



## Bisbow

I see that our beloved PM is scare mongering again, if we leave we are in danger of war and terrorism he says. Aren't we anyway.

The more he screams IN the more I want OUT.

Scare mongering does not wash with me, it just puts y back up, when will he learn we want true but know one knows the true facts whatever way we go, only time will tell


----------



## Little-moomin

Definitely in.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Case closed....
> 
> *EU referendum: Donald Trump backs Brexit*
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36219612


So does Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen & Katie Hopkins. Hes in good(bad) company lol



LinznMilly said:


> That reads like the closing credits of a film. :Wideyed
> 
> I think I could be swayed ... But reading the BBC link above, got me thinking ... If we join the EU, where would it end? It would be naive to think that the United States of Europe would be the end of the matter.
> 
> I just can't decide if that would be a good thing or bad. Good because it unifies the people. Bad because the Powers that Be will eventually have world domination... :Wideyed ..
> 
> Conspiracy, anyone?


I know We owe the EU loads more than we realise. The environment is my priority - hence the main reason I am voting in. Most of the key players in the brexit camp are environmental vandals, are pro NHS privatisation not to mention the racists amongst them. I for one, do not want to be left in the hands of people like this. Things are bad enough as it is.



Mrsred said:


> Back on topic, did anyone watch question time last night?
> Again, Brexit was top topic, the show unfortunately ended up with Michael O'leary promoting the EU via stupendous advertising of RyanAir. Without him or the EU we would still be paying £500 in flights to Paris supposedly which, having flown Ryanair myself they work out no cheaper when you factor in high season, baggage and taxes.
> Another member of the panel put it to them that EU suits big business like him but kills the small businessperson and people agreed.
> I should also point out that Michael O'leary refused to put Ryanair into Belfast many years ago as they would not capitulate to his demands. This ended in a flounce that he would be doing all his business in ROI (he is an Irishman, don't forget and not British) but has changed his tune last week that he will indeed start flights from Belfast after all these years. Not to tourist destinations, but three separate destinations in Poland. Why? Because it is financial viable for him, his interests certainly aren't the average joe on the streets.
> *
> It was also brought up that we would like to end the transport of live cattle to other EU nations. Unfortunately the EU won't allow this.*
> 
> My honest view is that we may hit a few bumps on the road if we leave but we will be ok, remain and we are swallowed by a behemoth that we will never be able to hold to account.


Here is what the highly respected CIWF says about transportation of livestock if we leave the EU
*
If we chose to go, our trade with EU member states would be governed by the World Trade Organisation (WTO), which would stifle any attempts we make to restrict imports that don't meet UK animal-welfare standards and make the banning of live exports much harder for us.*

Pros & Cons of brexit >> 
http://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2016/03/brexit-and-farm-animals-should-we-stay-or-go



Mrsred said:


> Ah yes, the fishery commission. The fishermen of Northern Ireland who are part of generations of that trade, the only source of income for areas such as portavogie are all sitting on their hands, doing nothing at all as they have watched their livelihoods, their heritage all but obliterated by the EU.





MoggyBaby said:


> The same for the islands in the north of Scotland!! My father lives in Shetland and he has told me several times about how bad it is up there now for fishing due to all the EU regulations. Small islands like these need to fish to live.





Colliebarmy said:


> Meanwhile EU member state factory ships scoop up quotas and move on...


Without fishing quotas stocks would run out, species will be wiped out - then there will be no fishing industry whatsoever.. Not sure many people realise but the UK is allocated the second largest fishing quota in the EU.

Here Friends of the Earth explains fishing quotas.

*What has the EU done for UK fish?*

The history of the EU's fishing policy is one of criticism and improvement. It is therefore unclear why the UK would want to abandon ship at this point.










*About the Common Fisheries Policy*
The centrepiece of this system, the EU's *Common Fisheries Policy*, is particularly unpopular. Some scientists even argue it is designed to fail.

Opponents blame it for not only mismanaging Europe's highly productive seas, but also for giving away "our fish", with the subject recently taking centre stage in an unlikely viral Brexit campaign video.

You might think that the chance to take back control of the fish in UK seas would be one of the most solid reasons to vote "Out" in June's referendum on EU membership.

So what's the catch?

First, the idea that fish in British waters have been fished into near-extinction by pesky foreign boats simply doesn't match up with reality. At least not any more.

Yes, fish numbers aren't what they were in the time of Moby Dick. However, arecent analysis of 118 years of statistics revealed the vast majority of the decline occurred prior to the Common Fisheries Policy's implementation in 1983. In fact, the policy is now overall helping, not harming, the country's fisheries.

Since EU policy was reformed in 2002, the health of many fish stocks has improved. By 2011 the majority of assessed fisheries were considered to be sustainably fished. Take the case of North Sea cod: once the "poster child" for overfishing and all that was wrong with European policy, it is now recovering strongly and likely to be certified as sustainable next year.

The EU is now phasing out the discarding of unwanted fish and setting quotas more in line with scientific advice. The aim is to ensure maximum sustainable yield of all stocks by 2020.

*UK fishing quotas explained*

*Ownership of UK fishing quotas is controversial and often misunderstood. After total EU fishing limits are decided by the Council of fisheries ministers, it is up to each member state to distribute its share among its own fleet.*



**

*The Cornelis Vrolijk catches a good portion of the UK's entire fish quota. ©AlfvanBeem*



*This is not an EU decision. The fact that a single giant Dutch-owned vessel nets a quarter of the English quota (6% of the UK total) might be shocking, especially considering the UK's quota is in theory shared between more than 6,000 vessels.*

*But the UK government could easily change how it allocates fish. In fact, the alternative allocation systems suggested by some pro-Brexit groups are already in place elsewhere in Europe.*

*Your plaice or mine?*

**

*Britain has to share with its neighbours. Inwind / wiki*

*Another common argument for Brexit is that it would give the UK sole control of the fish in its waters. However, these fish are not "British"; they don't respect national boundaries. Mackerel, herring, cod and other commercial species are all highly mobile, and move easily across borders, especially in places such as the North, Celtic and Irish Seas, where "exclusive economic zones" are jammed together like sardines in a can.*

*So unlike more isolated countries such as Iceland and Norway, the UK was always going to have to share its fish with its neighbours, especially as we moved into an era of global maritime regulation.*

*Fencing out foreign fishermen*



*A post-Brexit UK might still have to agree quotas with its neighbours, but could it prevent foreign boats from fishing in its waters? Maybe. But only with huge investment in monitoring and control public bodies such as the Marine Management Organisation (MMO) - organisations which are being cut at present.*

*Whether the UK would want this sort of escalation is a different question, as it would also mean British boats could no longer fish in the waters of other European nations. This is a major concern in the fishing industry as 20% of the fish caught by the UK fleet is landed elsewhere in the EU.*


*







*

*Dutch herring fleet in the North Sea, c1700, protected by a naval vessel. Pieter Vogelaer*

*The reality is that a Brexit would require a complete re-negotiation of fishing rights, with uncertain outcomes. Some of these rights extend back to the Middle Ages and banning foreign vessels from UK waters may well be incompatible with international law.*

*Such negotiations may harm trading relationships with Europe. At present the UK exports around 80% of its wild-caught seafood, with 4 of the top 5 destinationsbeing European countries.*

*Remaining in the EU also has big benefits for the marine ecosystems that the fishing industry ultimately relies on.*

*The Habitats Directive protects key habitats and species such as reefs and Atlantic salmon, while the Water Framework Directive and Marine Strategy Framework Directive commit EU members to restore and protect the environment.*

*It seems unlikely that the UK's current Conservative government, at least, would continue similarly progressive measures after a Brexit.*

*It's no surprise the "In" campaign is gaining support from a range of environmental groups - the weight of evidence is on their side. In contrast, many fishermen have strong feelings about the EU, but the main industry organisations and decision makers are remaining neutral.*

*We've come a long way since the bad old days of excessive quotas and widespread illegal fishing. As things become more sustainable, fish numbers are rebounding, leading to increasing UK fishing quotas and growing profits (now the highest in the EU).*

*The history of the EU's fishing policy is one of criticism and improvement. It is therefore unclear why the UK would want to abandon ship at this point.*

For anyone interested in FOIs point of view on brexit here is their PDF on the subject. https://www.foe.co.uk/sites/default...-position-european-union-membership-81703.pdf All Green NGOs I have come across share their opinion. So if the environment is your priority IN seems to be the safest option for nature.




porps said:


> the bbc is as far from a trustworthy source as you can get. It's controlled media and little more than a right wing propaganda machine these days (maybe it used to be different). They only report what fits thier agenda. events that don't will be ignored or respun to fit what they want you to think.


Its because people trust the BBC to be impartial that makes it even worse. Ive just been reading this on twitter - http://linkis.com/www.thecanary.co/201/teDdB


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## Honeys mum

Bisbow said:


> I see that our beloved PM is scare mongering again, if we leave we are in danger of war and terrorism he says. Aren't we anyway.


I think he comes up with a new excuse evryday, but only tells us what he wants us to hear. I'm afraid we won't be changing our minds whatever he says.

MEP says Brussels army is 'only way' to protect Europe | Politics | News | Daily Express


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## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> I think he comes up with a new excuse evryday


Maybe you remember that guy Winston Churchill who nobody can say wasn't pro UK and proud to be british. He said 


> We must proclaim the mission and design of a united Europe, whose moral conception will win the respect and gratitude of mankind and whose physical strength will be such that none will dare molest her tranquil sway … I hope to see a Europe where men and women of every country will think of being European as of belonging to their native land, and wherever they go in this wide domain will truly feel, 'Here I am at home'.


There is no doubt that the EU with it's insistance on human rights and democracy (bear in mind MEP's have to be elected with proportional representation unlike the UK system for government) has been a stabilising force in europe as a whole. Sharing information is also critical with things like the European Arrest Warrent being a good practical example of something that works. The good friday agreement was also simplified due to being in the EU.

Not surprised at you using the Daily Express. A paper whose owner donates to UKIP, a party which has aligned itself in europe with the far right and whose leader doesn't even turn up to meetings to represent the people who elected him.


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## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> Not surprised at you using the Daily Express. A paper whose owner donates to UKIP, a pato our own opinionrty which has aligned itself in europe with the far right and whose leader doesn't even turn up to meetings to represent the people who elected him


I don't want to come across as being rude, but how dare you assume that I read The Daily Express. For your information, I don't buy the Express, I just look at a few news papers on the internet, the Express just happens to be one of them.I find that quite upsetting and rude. May I sugest if you don't like my posts,which I have come to the conclusion that you don't due to other remarks you have made. Then perhaps you shouldn't read them.

The only thing I am supporting is to come out of the EU., and surely we are all entitled to our own opinion.

Please don't tell me that if I, don't like it , not to come on a public forum, because there is no need to be rude, and since being on PF that is something I have never been to anyone.


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## Colliebarmy

Todays update

If we leave the EU there will be a world war!


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## Muze

A reluctant in.... as I simply don't trust either of our political parties to make a success of an independent UK.


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## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> how dare you assume that I read The Daily Express.


You contradict yourself..


> For your information, I don't buy the Express, I just look at a few news papers on the internet, the Express just happens to be one of them.


However my reference wasn't you reading the paper itself, I browse a wide variety of papers on the web including the telegraph, guardian even the daily fail. However you linked the Express which is what I was refering to.



> May I sugest if you don't like my posts,which I have come to the conclusion that you don't due to other remarks you have made. Then perhaps you shouldn't read them.


Sorry I thought people were allowed to discuss things on a forum which includes posting counter arguments when someone makes an argument to support their opinion.



> Please don't tell me that if I, don't like it , not to come on a public forum


Please show me one place where I have said anything like that.


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## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> You contradict yourself..


I am not contradicting my self Goblin, just trying to prove a point that I look at other papers.



Goblin said:


> Sorry I thought people were allowed to discuss things on a forum which includes posting counter arguments when someone makes an argument to support their opinion.


You can discuss all you like, but there is no need to be rude.



Goblin said:


> Please show me one place where I have said anything like that.


If you read my post properly, I didn;t say you personally had, I was just asking you not to say that.


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## Honeys mum

Colliebarmy said:


> Todays update
> 
> If we leave the EU there will be a world war!


David Cameron warns Brexit would lead to war and genocide | Daily Mail Online


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## stuaz

Honeys mum said:


> David Cameron warns Brexit would lead to war and genocide | Daily Mail Online


Oh geez "genocide". 

Has the general public now become so easy to scare?


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## Goblin

stuaz said:


> Oh geez "genocide".
> 
> Has the general public now become so easy to scare?


So you don't remember Srebrenica in the 1990's as part of the Bosnian Conflict. Wasn't that long ago or far away. Yes I do think it's an exaggeration but too easy to become complacent and dismissive.


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## stuaz

Goblin said:


> So you don't remember Srebrenica in the 1990's as part of the Bosnian Conflict. Wasn't that long ago or far away. Yes I do think it's an exaggeration but too easy to become complacent and dismissive.


But I don't think they can claim that being in or out of the EU would prevent another. Bosnia for example isn't even in the EU I don't think.


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## Goblin

Democracy and human rights are all part of joining the EU. It's one of the reasons Turkey is improving it's record in those regards yet still isn't a member. Bosnia has applied to join the EU and has to match the requirements. Wasn't that really that long ago you could have swapped Bosnia for Spain or Greece. I personally think the EU has to evolve but the UK should push for that within the EU not isolate itself. It needs to actually contribute emotionally as part of europe. We used to do that and at that time the EU implemented things like the human rights pushed for by the UK as a result. 

Another thing to consider.. Farage has joined a far right alliance within the EU and Gove is pushing the xenophobic and nationalistic agenda for Brexit. There's something going around facebook at the moment which states "...Remember, it didn't start with gas chambers. It started with politicians dividing the people with 'us vs them' It started with intolerance and hate speech and when people stopped caring, became desensitized and turned a blind eye..." Would you say pushing a xenophobic and nationalistic agenda leads to a healthy society?


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## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> I see that our beloved PM is scare mongering again, if we leave we are in danger of war and terrorism he says. Aren't we anyway.
> 
> The more he screams IN the more I want OUT.
> 
> Scare mongering does not wash with me, it just puts y back up, when will he learn we want true but know one knows the true facts whatever way we go, only time will tell


The trouble is, if there are a number of downsides to leaving the EU, are you supposed not to mention them? Scaremongering surely involves making stuff up.

The EU's contribution to continental peace is the main reason I want to stay in. That's not to say a war will start on 24th June, but the peace will have been weakened.


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## Bisbow

Arnie83 said:


> The trouble is, if there are a number of downsides to leaving the EU, are you supposed not to mention them? Scaremongering surely involves making stuff up.
> 
> The EU's contribution to continental peace is the main reason I want to stay in. That's not to say a war will start on 24th June, but the peace will have been weakened.


In or out will not stop terrorist doing what they want when they want, look where they have infiltrated already


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## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> In or out will not stop terrorist doing what they want when they want, look where they have infiltrated already


Most terrorists in the UK are actually british having been radicalised whilst in this country. Should we make anyone with a beard therefore a suspect as you never know...

As far as scare tactics, if you say don't jump off a cliff it's 1000m high, is that scaremongering? What about if that cliff is in reality only 500m high? At least it has a basis in fact, you'll still go splat at the bottom. If you say jump off that cliff, it will be okay, we're british is that really better? Yes the remain side politicians are exaggerating things a lot but what I've seen from people like Gove and even Boris are scare tactics and appeals purely to national pride. There's simply no real information as to what will happen if we left as a lot depends on negotiations.

To be able to make an informed decision about leaving the EU it would have been necessary to have a fixed strategy in place for leaving. To be informed what we could reasonably expect and the dangers involved. Instead we are getting the blatherings of politicians. No distinction between sides when I say that.


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## Satori

Goblin said:


> To be able to make an informed decision about leaving the EU it would have been necessary to have a fixed strategy in place for leaving. To be informed what we could reasonably expect and the dangers involved.


To be able to make an informed decision about staying in the EU it would have been necessary to have a fixed strategy in place for staying. To be informed what we could reasonably expect and the dangers involved.


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## Honeys mum

Bisbow said:


> Scare mongering does not wash with me, it just puts y back up, when will he learn we want true but know one knows the true facts whatever way we go, only time will tell


Well said Bisbow, totally agree with you.


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## Honeys mum

David Cameron is 'PANICKING' over European Union referendum, top Tories tell Newsnight | UK | News | Daily Express

Spotted this today, when browsing the Express on the webb.


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## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> David Cameron is 'PANICKING' over European Union referendum, top Tories tell Newsnight | UK | News | Daily Express
> 
> Spotted this today, when browsing the Express on the webb.


So tell me, how does leaving the EU strengthen rather than weaken europe? How does it strengthen the ties to democracy and human rights of the countries involved? What does it do in terms of Gibraltar and Spain? What would happen if Spain simply closed it's borders to Gibraltar, a border which wasn't fully open until 1985 and is still occasionally a source of tension? How many minor issues are simmering under the surface within europe? You may be as dismissive as David Davis but many who remember history and take lessons from it are not. Nowadays it doesn't have to be military warfare, economic and even electronic warfare can be just as effective.


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## jenny armour

emmaviolet said:


> I am currently In, I was anyway, I have to say the fact that being In and the press with TTIP and essentially that was the trade agreement Obama was talking about, it did make me less certain. However I am sure TTIP would still be going ahead if we were out of Europe too, our government have already put a lot into place for it anyway and it benefits them personally.
> I think I will have to read more about it with regards to TTIP, but otherwise, I am not in favour of it just being a Tory government who has total power over us and we won't have anywhere else to appeal to if they decide to become more extreme.
> 
> Yes me too, but then I wouldn't like to agree with IDS either! Six of one hey!


exactly what is the TTIPO?


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## Satori

jenny armour said:


> exactly what is the TTIPO?


Wrong place to ask. Pretty much everything posted on here about TTIP is lies.


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## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> So tell me, how does leaving the EU strengthen rather than weaken europe? How does it strengthen the ties to democracy and human rights of the countries involved? What does it do in terms of Gibraltar and Spain? What would happen if Spain simply closed it's borders to Gibraltar, a border which wasn't fully open until 1985 and is still occasionally a source of tension? How many minor issues are simmering under the surface within europe? You may be as dismissive as David Davis but many who remember history and take lessons from it are not. Nowadays it doesn't have to be military warfare, economic and even electronic warfare can be just as effective.


Thankyou for your quote Goblin, however I will not be replying to it. I feel I don't have to justiffy myself to you, and you know nothing about me. Not once have I made a comment on one of comments on this post, or made rude remarks, I believe we all have our own opinion on this subject. 
As from now I shall be putting you on ignore,and as you have clearly taken a dislike to me , may i sugest you do the same with me.
Thankyou.


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## MilleD

My other half was totally on the fence until David Cameron set off the World War 3 bomb.

Now he's out. He reckons that anyone so desperate to resort to that sort of tactic isn't worth supporting.

I wonder if Dave's little prediction may have had the opposite reaction to what he wanted.

And I vote Tory, just disgusted he would stoop this low.


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## Honeys mum

I think a lot of people may agree with you MilleD

David Cameron, the conquering hero a year ago, is in the fight of his life

If you read this article to the end, there are some reasons quoted for staying or leaving the E.U. which is very refreshing for a change.
However, we will never really know for sure, only time will tell.


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## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> My other half was totally on the fence until David Cameron set off the World War 3 bomb.
> 
> Now he's out. He reckons that anyone so desperate to resort to that sort of tactic isn't worth supporting.
> 
> I wonder if Dave's little prediction may have had the opposite reaction to what he wanted.
> 
> And I vote Tory, just disgusted he would stoop this low.


It's a personal reaction, of course, but is it really 'stooping so low'?

The European Coal & Steel Community was originally conceived as a way of strengthening the economic ties between European nations and thereby making conflict less likely. Although it is clearly not solely responsible, that Community, which has morphed into the EU, has overseen a continent at peace for 70 years.

If we leave - and especially if we are seen to do so without penalty - it makes the break-up of the EU much more likely. Why would you stay and pay when you can walk away and get everything for free?

Looking at the reaction to the migrant crisis and the rise of the far right in so many countries, it is very clear that tribal nationalism is as prevalent as it always was. Reduce the barriers to conflict by reinforcing national 'boundaries' (not merely physical ones) and you increase the chances of that conflict occurring. Or in the case of Europe, recurring.

The maintenance of peace (I'm not talking anti-terrorism here) is the main reason I'm voting in. I think the world will be a better place the more we tie ourselves together, and a more dangerous place the more we strive to be separate.


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## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> It's a personal reaction, of course, but is it really 'stooping so low'?
> 
> Looking at the reaction to the migrant crisis and the rise of the far right in so many countries, it is very clear that tribal nationalism is as prevalent as it always was. Reduce the barriers to conflict by reinforcing national 'boundaries' (not merely physical ones) and you increase the chances of that conflict occurring. Or in the case of Europe, recurring.


On your first point, yes I think threatening people with war if they vote out is stooping pretty low. There's no reason that some economic ties can't be kept, even without the EU.

On your second - but if the cause of that conflict is removed or at least reduced, then the conflict is less likely surely?

In some people's minds, isn't there is a fine line between tribal nationalism and patriotism?


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## HollynSmudge

Definitely IN, UK science would suffer much if we were not in the EU

EDIT: I alos hate that I have to agree with Cameron though


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## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> On your first point, yes I think threatening people with war if they vote out is stooping pretty low. There's no reason that some economic ties can't be kept, even without the EU.
> 
> On your second - but if the cause of that conflict is removed or at least reduced, then the conflict is less likely surely?
> 
> In some people's minds, isn't there is a fine line between tribal nationalism and patriotism?


(I haven't read what he actually said - did he actually threaten people with war?)

In my mind there is a very fine line between tribal nationalism and patriotism. Most of the conflicts in the world are caused by tribalism, be they national wars, religious conflicts, or even sects within religions, West Ham 'fans' throwing bottles at Manchester United team buses ...

That's why, for me, the more we're together the less we're apart! Maybe I'm just naive.


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## Honeys mum

Exclusive: David Cameron will not debate against any Tory ahead of EU referendum

IMO this article is well worth a read. It also contains a video explaining what happen on June 23rd polling day.


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## cheekyscrip

For those who live in England being British is just taken for granted.
But if you live in Gibraltar, Falklands or Ulster it is not so. The threat is always present.
Brexit will destroy us. Our economy. Our freedom. Those who vote out actually hand us away .
Desperate people would have to migrate back to UK. There would be no jobs. What would happen to our animals...I am trying not to think about it.


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## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> For those who live in England being British is just taken for granted.
> But if you live in Gibraltar, Falklands or Ulster it is not so. The threat is always present.
> Brexit will destroy us. Our economy. Our freedom. Those who vote out actually hand us away .
> Desperate people would have to migrate back to UK. There would be no jobs..


I feel terrible for the people that it would affect, and I know it sounds selfish, but I can't base my decision on that one issue.



cheekyscrip said:


> What would happen to our animals...I am trying not to think about it.


Surely it wouldn't happen overnight and things could be organised?


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## Mrsred

Donegal, which is part of the Republic of Ireland is part of Ulster.
Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. And has never been safer within it, the majority of people are more than happy remaining within the Uk, the dissidents have no support and we are governed by a unionist majority. The main party, the DUP are vehemently out re brexit. They are extremely fond of the Union Jack and would drape themselves in it if possible. No European ideals (or gay marriage, modern licensing laws, or access to safe abortions that our mainland counterparts have, including in cases of fatal foetal abnormality or rape) for them.
It is the nationalists and republicans (those that may wish to see a united Ireland) who are pro EU for obvious reasons.
The people of Ulster are certainly not afraid that they will be somehow cut off, as nothing will change.
The main concern is PERHAPS some sort of border control would be reinstated which would be ridiculously difficult to implement, we cross the border all the time and the only way you know you are over is that the road signs have changed from mph to kph and no one would want to fund it in any case.

And why has David Cameron vehemently refused to do a televised debate, such as they do pre general elections?


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## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> I feel terrible for the people that it would affect, and I know it sounds selfish, but I can't base my decision on that one issue.
> 
> Surely it wouldn't happen overnight and things could be organised?


Come here and see yourself. NOT if Britain is out. 
See:Spain does not care if thousands of Spaniards and others lose jobs if frontier is impassable.
Few days ago, when my dog was operated , dog needed his meds quickly , but the delivery was stuck on the frontier. Deliberately stopped till Monday. Elderly lady owner was crying, because could not go there leaving sick OH and sick dog behind.

Income from tourism will fall and that is our biggest source of money.

Yes. Very selfish as Gibraltar is national treasure , heritage and thousands died for it.
On another note: pound fell already. Will fall much more.
We import from EU. Already feeling the pinch.

Hope that if it came to the worst and we become refugees we manage to save our pets.
We will not be able to save the monkeys, the dolphins and so on.

Spain is quite famous for their respect of nature and fishing laws.....no one better.

Getting out of EU means also that UJ needs not to comply with any EU laws as to conservation or farming, or animal testing..

Do you care about that issue?


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## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Come here and see yourself. NOT if Britain is out.
> See:Spain does not care if thousands of Spaniards and others lose jobs if frontier is impassable.
> Few days ago, when my dog was operated , dog needed his meds quickly , but the delivery was stuck on the frontier. Deliberately stopped till Monday. Elderly lady owner was crying, because could not go there leaving sick OH and sick dog behind.
> 
> Income from tourism will fall and that is our biggest source of money.
> 
> Yes. Very selfish as Gibraltar is national treasure , heritage and thousands died for it.
> On another note: pound fell already. Will fall much more.
> We import from EU. Already feeling the pinch.
> 
> Hope that if it came to the worst and we become refugees we manage to save our pets.
> We will not be able to save the monkeys, the dolphins and so on.
> 
> Spain is quite famous for their respect of nature and fishing laws.....no one better.
> 
> Getting out of EU means also that UJ needs not to comply with any EU laws as to conservation or farming, or animal testing..
> 
> Do you care about that issue?


All this stuff you are talking about as being wrong is happening whilst we are still in the EU so it seems like it isn't perfect anyway.

And I understand Spain's animal rights record, I abhor it like I abhor other countries, but like I said, I can't make my choice based on this one issue.

I wish I could, wouldn't it be great if we could have a big cauldron and choose the things we want to keep from the EU?


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## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Spain is quite famous for their respect of nature and fishing laws.....no one better.


A note on this. I'm pretty sure that Spain has never respected the fishing quota business.

And the last time I visited spain (February) there were police smoking in the restaurants. So why is it ok for them to be in the EU and ignore all the laws while we lay down and take it everytime?


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## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> A note on this. I'm pretty sure that Spain has never respected the fishing quota business.
> 
> And the last time I visited spain (February) there were police smoking in the restaurants. So why is it ok for them to be in the EU and ignore all the laws while we lay down and take it everytime?


This is WHY we do not want to be Spanish!!!!






















Come here. Not Spain. See WHAT is going to be destroyed.

For you it is very theoretical. Whichever way might not affect you really.
Here , on the photo you can see my home.
My children, dog, cat.
What would happen to them all?
Imagine it was your own?
We are no different to say: Isle of Man. Or Jersey.
Or any British town for that matter.


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## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> A note on this. I'm pretty sure that Spain has never respected the fishing quota business.


The fishing industry is an interesting one. A lot of people seem to assume that if we leave the EU we can reimpose territorial waters rights and kick all foreign fishermen (& women) out. Yet according to the Leave people we are not going to face any such restrictions on all the other trade we do and that nothing will change to our detriment. It strikes me as unlikely that the only changes will be in our favour.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies

stuaz said:


> Has the general public now become so easy to scare?


Unfortunately the whole Remain campaign is being built on fear. If you believe all you read ; the Uk will be in financial collapse, no one will trade with us, everyone will make war with us, we will be unsafe and unloved and the world will end ......

J


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## Happy Paws2

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Unfortunately the whole Remain campaign is being built on fear. If you believe all you read ; the Uk will be in financial collapse, no one will trade with us, everyone will make war with us, we will be unsafe and unloved and the world will end ......
> 
> J


Now your talking silly and taking things out of content. There is worry that things would change if we left, we will not be treated as we are now.

It's the rubbish Boris and his cronies are saying that worries me.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies

Happy Paws said:


> Now your talking silly and taking things out of content.


Actually, no. Regardless of how one thinks to vote, the Remain campaign *is* being built on the bad things that will happen if we leave. Most people aren't particularly happy with the way the EU works, so if they simply built their campaign on 'You'll get more of the same', the UK would most probably vote to leave.

J


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## Happy Paws2

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> the Remain campaign *is* being built on the bad things that will happen if we leave.


And the Leave campaign are say just the same about thing that will happen if we stay in, and I can't believe anything Boris says.


----------



## Mrsred

I see that David Cameron is going to do a televised debate, but only with Nigel Farage. He won't face off to Boris, I wonder why? 
Apparently he will only go head to head with Farage as he is seen as a bit of a laughing stock and perhaps not as able for the debate. 
I find that disingenuous, a debate that's already stacked in one sides favour.


----------



## Lurcherlad

The point was made yesterday that it isn't the EU that has prevented war in Europe, but NATO.


----------



## MilleD

Lurcherlad said:


> The point was made yesterday that it isn't the EU that has prevented war in Europe, but NATO.


It's a valid point.


----------



## Honeys mum

Mrsred said:


> I see that David Cameron is going to do a televised debate, but only with Nigel Farage. He won't face off to Boris, I wonder why?
> Apparently he will only go head to head with Farage as he is seen as a bit of a laughing stock and perhaps not as able for the debate.


----------



## Honeys mum

Mrsred said:


> I see that David Cameron is going to do a televised debate, but only with Nigel Farage. He won't face off to Boris, I wonder why?
> Apparently he will only go head to head with Farage as he is seen as a bit of a laughing stock and perhaps not as able for the debate.


Exclusive: David Cameron will not debate against any Tory ahead of EU referendum

If you read this post I posted earlier Mrsred, he will not even agree to face NF , they will be on the screen at seperate times.
I think that says it all.


----------



## Mrsred

I'm watching Matthew Wright and they are discussing it now, it will be interview by interview! 
Nigel Farage is not even an official leave campaigner so the question being posed is, if you spend £9m of the public purse on one sided propaganda, shouldn't you properly debate it and back it up? 
I also didn't realise that initially, Cameron said that he would be out if the EU didn't meet his 'demands'.


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> And the Leave campaign are say just the same about thing that will happen if we stay in, and I can't believe anything Boris says.


Does that mean that you believe what D.C. is saying then Happy Paws.

Very interesting article in the Telegraph today.The gap between ONS migrant figures and the truth is as wide as the Grand Canyon. We are owed an apology


----------



## MilleD

Mrsred said:


> I'm watching Matthew Wright and they are discussing it now, it will be interview by interview!
> Nigel Farage is not even an official leave campaigner so the question being posed is, if you spend £9m of the public purse on one sided propaganda, shouldn't you properly debate it and back it up?
> I also didn't realise that initially, Cameron said that he would be out if the EU didn't meet his 'demands'.


I know, neat bit of backtracking right?

His 'demands' (you're right they should be in inverted commas ) were also pretty laughable and didn't actually address any of the issues people have with the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

Lurcherlad said:


> The point was made yesterday that it isn't the EU that has prevented war in Europe, but NATO.


Based on what facts in particular?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


> Does that mean that you believe what D.C. is saying then Happy Paws.
> 
> 
> 
> *Well more than I do the leave lot*
Click to expand...


----------



## Arnie83

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Unfortunately the whole Remain campaign is being built on fear. If you believe all you read ; the Uk will be in financial collapse, no one will trade with us, everyone will make war with us, we will be unsafe and unloved and the world will end ......
> 
> J


Except of course no-one in the Remain camp has said that the UK will be in financial collapse, merely that it will not be as well off - GDP will be lower - than if we stay in.

And no-one in the Remain camp has said that no-one will trade with us. Of course they will, but it is likely that the terms of that trade will be worse than before leading to a reduction in it.

And no-one in the Remain camp has said that everyone (or anyone) will make war with us, merely that the EU has been an influence for peace - as has NATO - and that its break-up, which is much more likely after Brexit, will weaken that influence.

What does seem to happen is that the Leave camp exaggerate the warnings, as you have done, and then ridicule their own exaggerations as though they were actually suggested by the Remain camp.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Arnie83 said:


> What does seem to happen is that the Leave camp exaggerate the warnings, as you have done, and then ridicule their own exaggerations as though they were actually suggested by the Remain camp.


It was a tongue in cheek comment ...but actually as an over view it is pretty much all doom and gloom predictions.

Interestingly enough I am not 'in the leave camp' as you have presumed .... I would prefer a more controlled EU ...but it isn't going to happen and so I look for what may be a viable alternative for the future. And not my future actually but that of my children and their children. I doubt the outcome will have little effect on me. Imo the EU is an out of control, directionless, top heavy, money swallower that needs a massive kick up the backside.

J


----------



## Lilylass

So - if we leave, does that mean we can stop making a complete & utter idiot of ourselves each year at the Eurovision?

I really can't think of a more pointless waste of money each year - its political voting & we're very unlikely to ever win it again (I know competition is about taking part but when it's so political voting then why waste our time & money) - not to mention the poor contestants time & efforts


----------



## MoggyBaby

Lilylass said:


> So - if we leave, does that mean we can stop making a complete & utter idiot of ourselves each year at the Eurovision?
> 
> I really can't think of a more pointless waste of money each year - its political voting & we're very unlikely to ever win it again (I know competition is about taking part but when it's so political voting then why waste our time & money) - not to mention the poor contestants time & efforts


I think last night was a very clear indicator on how Europe feels about the UK. The splitting of the vote between judges & the public was interesting. Personally, it left me feeling that Europe can go fark itself!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

U


Lilylass said:


> So - if we leave, does that mean we can stop making a complete & utter idiot of ourselves each year at the Eurovision?
> 
> I really can't think of a more pointless waste of money each year - its political voting & we're very unlikely to ever win it again (I know competition is about taking part but when it's so political voting then why waste our time & money) - not to mention the poor contestants time & efforts


Public did not like UK entry !

As to campaign...Is comparing EU to Hitler not actually"fearmongering"?

With threats from ISIS , belligerent Russia and Asia rising there is a reason behind united Europe.
Britain on its own?

Trading with China? Oh...that will go well...

I do.understand how appealing is Merkel and so on...

Just that alternative is playing to hands of those who do not wish EU well...Putin? Isis?
And more...
Leaving means Europe is weakened.

And , funnily Britain would still be in Europe. EU or not.
Geography and culture.

Why Britain should be interested in fall of EU?
Who gains then? Russia?China? Middle East?
Great, trusted allies of UK...great replacement.


----------



## Lilylass

cheekyscrip said:


> Public did not like UK entry !
> .


Every year?

The jury voting always has been & always will be political - that's why we will never win it

TBH I think the public vote is pretty much the same


----------



## diefenbaker

Seems all you need to win Eurovision is an anti-Russian song. I've just penned "Trotsky was an utter turd". I need some backing singers. Anyone interested ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lilylass said:


> Every year?
> 
> The jury voting always has been & always will be political - that's why we will never win it
> 
> TBH I think the public vote is pretty much the same


Public liked Austrian and Polish entries much more than judges? No one liked Germans....


----------



## Lilylass

cheekyscrip said:


> Public liked Austrian and Polish entries much more than judges? No one liked Germans....


Still a complete waste of time & money imho as, no matter what we do, it will always be political voting from the judges and makes the whole competition a complete farce and, until that's stopped, it always will be.

Yet another example of where we throw money down the drain in Europe


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lilylass said:


> Still a complete waste of time & money imho as, no matter what we do, it will always be political voting from the judges and makes the whole competition a complete farce and, until that's stopped, it always will be.
> 
> Yet another example of where we throw money down the drain in Europe


Best part of Eurovision was Terry Wogan!!! 
By the way Sweden last year had good song. Won and they are not in EU? Won many times and not just on votes from Scandinavian countries...
Germans tend to be rubbish and do not get much support....
Not to mention glorious beasts of Lordii ....political voting ??? For Finland?
Ukraine was not my cuppa but good vocal and visual effects.


----------



## Goblin

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Interestingly enough I am not 'in the leave camp' as you have presumed .... I would prefer a more controlled EU ...but it isn't going to happen and so I look for what may be a viable alternative for the future.


Yet change is being pushed for and happening. I still don't get how people can complain of being dictated to when the reality is we do not actively engage in the processes involved. I've asked the question, if we leave we apparantly have so much clout that everyone including Germany will bow down to our will and desires. How come we cannot use that clout within the EU as it is?


----------



## cheekyscrip

But Donald Trump supports Brexit...
And his twin.

Johnson was funny as quirky mayor. He is not funny trying to get the seat at any cost. 
Trump and Johnson have more in common than bad hair and populist tendencies.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Goblin said:


> Yet change is being pushed for and happening. I still don't get how people can complain of being dictated to when the reality is we do not actively engage in the processes involved. I've asked the question, if we leave we apparantly have so much clout that everyone including Germany will bow down to our will and desires. *How come we cannot use that clout within the EU as it is?*


We can on most important things.........

I see Boris is been an idiot again and trying to scare everyone again. 
Boris Johnson has compared the EU's aims to Hitler's, saying both involved the intention to unify Europe under a single "authority".

The pro-Brexit Tory MP said both the Nazi leader and Napoleon had failed at unification and the EU was "an attempt to do this by different methods".

Shadow foreign secretary Hilary Benn, who backs Remain, said the comparison was "offensive and desperate".

Meanwhile, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has backed Mr Johnson to be the next PM.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> We can on most important things.........
> 
> I see Boris is been an idiot again and trying to scare everyone again.
> Boris Johnson has compared the EU's aims to Hitler's, saying both involved the intention to unify Europe under a single "authority".
> 
> The pro-Brexit Tory MP said both the Nazi leader and Napoleon had failed at unification and the EU was "an attempt to do this by different methods".
> 
> Shadow foreign secretary Hilary Benn, who backs Remain, said the comparison was "offensive and desperate".
> 
> Meanwhile, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has backed Mr Johnson to be the next PM.


With NF as deputy? Match made in heaven. 
Add Donald and it is like Three Stooges or a clip from Village People.

Sorry...but Johnson sounds more and more outlandish...just like the other two.


----------



## MoggyBaby

The downside of the whole debate is that we seem to have complete muppets leading the campaigns for both sides! Rather than people more intent on their political careers and point scoring, we just need sensible, down-to-earth, folks stating the simple, straight-forward facts for both side of the argument.


----------



## jenny armour

out


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Goblin said:


> I still don't get how people can complain of being dictated to when the reality is we do not actively engage in the processes involved. I've asked the question, if we leave we apparantly have so much clout that everyone including Germany will bow down to our will and desires. How come we cannot use that clout within the EU as it is?


We have no clout. Cameron demonstrated that clearly when he tried to negotiate change a while ago. But then again why should we have. We are just a member along with Greece, Estonia, Lithuania etc etc ....I would have through that the fact that the EU can make decisions directly relating to this country and as Cameron has proved we can't do anything about it, is main issue with a lot of people and probably one of the reasons many people are reluctant to stay.

And the question is really do you stay somewhere where you do feel you have no say ('clout' as you call it) in how things are done?

Whether the UK can do better on it's own is a mute point ....and one I suspect that we will never know as I fully expect the vote to stay with safety. Better the devil you know and all that ...

J


----------



## Honeys mum

What if Britain HADN'T joined the EU? | Daily Mail Online 

Just found this old newspaper article.


----------



## cheekyscrip

World situation is far from stability. Western Europe and US lost lots of ground anyway...bitter in-fighting really helps. In Europe. In UK. In both leading parties. We have Middle East, Russia, climate change and our leaders care about their career first and outmost. Here I blame Johnston to the hilt. He wants to be PM. At any cost. Labour might leave their playground quarrels and maybe support leader they recently elected?
When people tire of that they worship dictators.....


----------



## MoggyBaby

Honeys mum said:


> What if Britain HADN'T joined the EU? | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Just found this old newspaper article.


Finally something which shows just how much the UK has lost by being stuck with Europe. And the fact this article dates back to 2007 excludes it from just being Brexit propoganda!


----------



## rona

MoggyBaby said:


> Finally something which shows just how much the UK has lost by being stuck with Europe. And the fact this article dates back to 2007 excludes it from just being Brexit propoganda!


I think you need to look more into the author


----------



## cheekyscrip

But , MB, with UK out and yes, recession! Scotland would promptly go independent and join the evil EU?
So where that leaves you?

Then Northern Ireland might do it...
Not mention the fate of Gibraltar.

That will England where exactly???


----------



## Mrsred

Northern Ireland, WILL NOT be leaving the United Kingdom, regardless of EU referendum. 
The Good Friday agreement clearly states the above would only happen if there was a majority that want it. The majority don't, regardless of their orange or green status, the biggest party here (who want out of EU) are rabid unionists.
A local BBC programme did a cross border poll and hour long show on NI and the majority don't want a break with uk mainland, don't see a united Ireland happening in their lifetime and ROI don't want us either!


----------



## MoggyBaby

cheekyscrip said:


> But , MB, with UK out and yes, recession! Scotland would promptly go independent and join the evil EU?
> So where that leaves you?
> 
> Then Northern Ireland might do it...
> Not mention the fate of Gibraltar.
> 
> That will England where exactly???


I very much doubt Scotland would 'promptly go Independant' - too many legalities for a start off - and I know many Scots who are just as hacked off with Europe as English & Welsh people. Just because the SNP are bleating on about this does not make it a reality. However, that aside, I live in England so - overall - Scotlands choices would not affect me.

As for Gibralter - I'd expect life to be better for you because the UK will be better positioned to protect its Commonwealth properties and far more inclined to do so. The UK has a history of kicking Spanish ass so, if needed to, I reckon we could manage it again.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MoggyBaby said:


> I very much doubt Scotland would 'promptly go Independant' - too many legalities for a start off - and I know many Scots who are just as hacked off with Europe as English & Welsh people. Just because the SNP are bleating on about this does not make it a reality. However, that aside, I live in England so - overall - Scotlands choices would not affect me.
> 
> As for Gibralter - I'd expect life to be better for you because the UK will be better positioned to protect its Commonwealth properties and far more inclined to do so. The UK has a history of kicking Spanish ass so, if needed to, I reckon we could manage it again.


As long as you stand in for PM and kick Johnson's backside off I would feel safe...

Scots would just sit on the fence and see how it goes...they are not stupid.
It goes pear shape and off they go...

With UK in turmoil Gibraltar or Falklands would be the least of their worries...

Unless England joins USA ....


----------



## Mrsred

I could be completely wrong and I'm happy to be corrected but because SNP didn't achieve a majority at the polls recently - that means a Scottish referendum is off the table now?


----------



## Satori

Mrsred said:


> I could be completely wrong and I'm happy to be corrected but because SNP didn't achieve a majority at the polls recently - that means a Scottish referendum is off the table now?


Not off the table no. Sturgeon intends to run another independence campaign this year and with the support of the Greens (who are pro-independence) and the permission of Westminster, she can run another referendum should she wish, However, current polls show that she would suffer a clear and decisive defeat. Oil prices have pushed opinion away from her cause.

In any case her threat to call a referendum if the UK votes to the leave the EU is based on her war cry that Scotland won't be forced to leave the EU against their will. This is turn is based on the romantic notion that Scotland is more pro-EU than the UK as a whole. The polls don't support that assertion however. It's just another convenient lie from Sturgeon.


----------



## Arnie83

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> We have no clout. Cameron demonstrated that clearly when he tried to negotiate change a while ago. But then again why should we have. We are just a member along with Greece, Estonia, Lithuania etc etc ....I would have through that the fact that the EU can make decisions directly relating to this country and as Cameron has proved we can't do anything about it, is main issue with a lot of people and probably one of the reasons many people are reluctant to stay.
> 
> And the question is really do you stay somewhere where you do feel you have no say ('clout' as you call it) in how things are done?


A lot of people are understandably concerned about the laws passed in the EU that apply to the UK without our being able to stop them.

The trouble is, I can't think of a single one in the last 40 years that has made any significant difference at all on my life.

Could you - or anyone - name, let's say just the top 3 EU laws (and that doesn't include free movement, which was one of the rules we signed up to in 1973) without which I would be happier?


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Arnie83 said:


> The trouble is, I can't think of a single one in the last 40 years that has made any significant difference at all on my life.


Oh the laws have made a difference …whether for the good or the bad or whether they have made us happier or sadder is exactly what is being argued over by the different camps! The European Commission has churned out laws (affecting the UK since 1973) about everything from farming to fishing to how we can advertise and what warnings we put on our ciggie packets! And of course it controls the trading between member states.

Now I am not saying that this is wrong …or even that I disapprove …. I'm a massive Francophile (I lived there for a while) lol and have travelled extensively in Europe … but we can't say that it doesn't make a difference. And we can't really say that we have control. In the UK, we talk of our parliament making laws. However, when English law contradicts EU law, EU law prevails. It's a bit like a card game.

J


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> A lot of people are understandably concerned about the laws passed in the EU that apply to the UK without our being able to stop them.
> 
> The trouble is, I can't think of a single one in the last 40 years that has made any significant difference at all on my life.
> 
> Could you - or anyone - name, let's say just the top 3 EU laws (and that doesn't include free movement, which was one of the rules we signed up to in 1973) without which I would be happier?


Without knowing what makes you happy that's difficult. I guess if you want to eat your pet horse under incandescent light and enjoy a post-prandial cigarette without a health warning, well there's three right there.

More seriously, if you have beaten your head against the EU money laundering directive (I have) then you will no-doubt be a very unhappy bunny. Maybe this year you will fall foul of the extended requirements of the mortgage credit directive?

Even more seriously, EU directives really tend to frustrate in a business context rather than a consumer context. When I think of the total waste of time energy and money that the EU directive on collective consultation of redundancy has caused, for example, and the misery it inflicts on both employers and staff it still makes me angry (and relieved that I don't work any more).


----------



## MoggyBaby

I take no credit for composing the following - I have copied it from a friends FB page. However, it is so well written, and makes such a good financial statement, it has to be shared here:

_We are locked into a Free Trade Agreement with the EU, being able to establish our own FTAs with the entire globe will massively increase our access to these new economies with rising GDPs - not sure how that disproves the argument completely.

The same arguments of financial collapse were predicted by economists when the UK considered adopting the Euro. Because we could control our currency, unlike the Greeks, we were able to recover from the recent financial crisis without having to default. It could easily apply to being locked into the Single Market, particularly one that is taking on members that will take more than they contribute. The EU is taking on "sub-prime" countries.

Again, Norway and Switzerland have had the option to become fully paid up members of the EU, they declined and they're doing fine just being part of the trading bloc. Switzerland has also taken measures to limit Freedom of Movement and the EU's response has been to just ignore it. No financial penalties, no boycotts, just trade as usual.

If the EU is hit by another recession, which is entirely possible based on the inequalities in it's Member States' economies, it's best if the UK is separate from the ensuing carnage and not being asked for more money to bolster the economies of Albania, Kosovo and Turkey. The ECB is printing money like it's going out of fashion, Greece is going to need another bailout and both the trade and the GDPs of the countries we trade with are falling.

Finally, if in future the EU wishes to impose taxes, regulations and business practices that harm the UK, there will be nothing we can do about it. Our singular vote will be lost against the other German led 27 Member States...soon to be 34 Member States._

I thought the 'sub-prime countries' was one of the best descriptions I've heard in a very long time.


----------



## westie~ma

From where I am (South Wales, West Wales, Greater London).

My husband is employed by an aeorospace industry, leaving the EU will make things difficult.

From what I've heard Switzerland aren't exactly having a ball atm so let's not get too excited *recent slump* on the news but not overtly broadcast. 

I'm voting out, but STILL need concrete opinion which seems sadly lacking. It's all patriotic vitriol.


----------



## Lilylass

Mrsred said:


> Northern Ireland, WILL NOT be leaving the United Kingdom, regardless of EU referendum.
> The Good Friday agreement clearly states the above would only happen if there was a majority that want it. The majority don't, regardless of their orange or green status, the biggest party here (who want out of EU) are rabid unionists.
> A local BBC programme did a cross border poll and hour long show on NI and the majority don't want a break with uk mainland, don't see a united Ireland happening in their lifetime and ROI don't want us either!





cheekyscrip said:


> But , MB, with UK out and yes, recession! Scotland would promptly go independent and join the evil EU?
> So where that leaves you?
> 
> Then Northern Ireland might do it...
> Not mention the fate of Gibraltar.
> 
> That will England where exactly???


There are also many former snp voters who are totally hacked off with the snp for not sticking to their word that they'd accept the results of the referendum & move on if it wasn't a yes vote - why do you think the conservatives did so well the other week! (Even Ruth Davidson said as much)

The snp are risking stability in Scotland by not letting it drop

They didn't get a yes last time because they didn't answer all the questions posed properly and said it'll' sort itself out' to a lot of them

Let's be honest, thank goodness it wasn't a yes vote as most of their plan for revenue came from oil so we'd have been bankrupt by now if they had got it!


----------



## Mrsred

If anyone has access to a DAB Radio or even on TV, radio ulster is having an extremely interesting debate about Brexit. 
Farmers, who are very prevalent here and worried about losing subsidies are being told that in the next decade, with so many other countries joining the EU that the subsidies WILL drop and that more competitive subsidies are practically guaranteed should we leave. 
Perhaps not so interesting for people from uk mainland but Sinn Fein are desperate to stay in as a United Ireland is more veasable through EU membership.


----------



## Arnie83

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Oh the laws have made a difference …whether for the good or the bad or whether they have made us happier or sadder is exactly what is being argued over by the different camps! The European Commission has churned out laws (affecting the UK since 1973) about everything from farming to fishing to how we can advertise and what warnings we put on our ciggie packets! And of course it controls the trading between member states.
> 
> Now I am not saying that this is wrong …or even that I disapprove …. I'm a massive Francophile (I lived there for a while) lol and have travelled extensively in Europe … but we can't say that it doesn't make a difference. And we can't really say that we have control. In the UK, we talk of our parliament making laws. However, when English law contradicts EU law, EU law prevails. It's a bit like a card game.
> 
> J





Satori said:


> Without knowing what makes you happy that's difficult. I guess if you want to eat your pet horse under incandescent light and enjoy a post-prandial cigarette without a health warning, well there's three right there.
> 
> More seriously, if you have beaten your head against the EU money laundering directive (I have) then you will no-doubt be a very unhappy bunny. Maybe this year you will fall foul of the extended requirements of the mortgage credit directive?
> 
> Even more seriously, EU directives really tend to frustrate in a business context rather than a consumer context. When I think of the total waste of time energy and money that the EU directive on collective consultation of redundancy has caused, for example, and the misery it inflicts on both employers and staff it still makes me angry (and relieved that I don't work any more).


Thanks for taking the trouble to answer.

I have to say, though, that none of what you've mentioned affects me in the slightest, and I suspect I'm in the majority.

In the last 40 years the decisions that have been most troublesome to me are some of the changes in the budget, and the decision on the BoE interest rate on which my mortgage repayments depend (and which are made by an unelected body chaired by a Canadian). I can't get as aerated about laws being made by an imperfect democracy in Brussels than I do about those made by an imperfect democracy in Westminster.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Thanks for taking the trouble to answer.
> 
> I have to say, though, that none of what you've mentioned affects me in the slightest, and I suspect I'm in the majority.


Ok I'll try one more, though I suspect we are troubled by different phenomena (not that I want to eat my pet horse of course). Ever had a luxury car with keyless entry broken into? Well you can thank the EU for that too.

Btw, as you well know, the directives that drag business down under a pile of unnecessary bureaucracy affect us all even if only inderectly in the form of cost of products, diminished investment returns etc.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Satori said:


> Btw, as you well know, the directives that drag business down under a pile of unnecessary bureaucracy affect us all even if only inderectly in the form of cost of products, diminished investment returns etc.


The more businesses & corporations are tied up in EU red tape and legislature, the more money it costs them. Businesses & corporations are not prepared to lose that money so the cost is passed on to the consumer. So whilst people may not 'think' they are affected, they are - in their pockets!


----------



## Goblin

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> And the question is really do you stay somewhere where you do feel you have no say ('clout' as you call it) in how things are done


And you can outside the EU when you are restricted by WTO rules (nuumber of rules growing quickly and no input in process) without any democratic process? As seen we do so well at negotiating with the 2003 extradition treaty being a great example. Want TTIP, government will fall over themselves to accept it if negotiating it on their own.



Mrsred said:


> Farmers, who are very prevalent here and worried about losing subsidies are being told that in the next decade, with so many other countries joining the EU that the subsidies WILL drop and that more competitive subsidies are practically guaranteed should we leave.


As if France will let them  Thats the crux isn't it though. France has 1 more MEP than we do but participates in debates and in the EU is seen as powerful. In reality we should have just as much power but we waste it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Britain does not give a toss about Gibraltar. Hence the constant harassment and even James Dutton resigned as governor in protest. Feeling just humiliated when Guardia Civil shoots jet skiers or arrests our little boats on our waters and takes them to Spain!
Spain has Russian submarines stationed in Ceuta, just miles from us. USA protests..
Britain does Nothing!!!
Tell me that we would be supported if Spain closes frontiers.

Not at all. Joe Bloggs would get another hols in Costa del Sol.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Ok I'll try one more, though I suspect we are troubled by different phenomena (not that I want to eat my pet horse of course). Ever had a luxury car with keyless entry broken into? Well you can thank the EU for that too.
> 
> Btw, as you well know, the directives that drag business down under a pile of unnecessary bureaucracy affect us all even if only inderectly in the form of cost of products, diminished investment returns etc.





MoggyBaby said:


> The more businesses & corporations are tied up in EU red tape and legislature, the more money it costs them. Businesses & corporations are not prepared to lose that money so the cost is passed on to the consumer. So whilst people may not 'think' they are affected, they are - in their pockets!


Thanks again. No I haven't had a luxury car stolen - chance would be a fine thing! - but if the EU legislation on coding information has had the unforeseen effect of making that easier then it should be changed. I can't help but think it's quite a small problem in 40 years of the overarching EU legislative behemoth.

Business red-tape I know is a problem for some, especially the smaller ones. And I am pleased that there is a proposal to exempt SME's from a lot of it, though not so happy that UKIP voted against the proposal.

If we leave, though, will it be the case that all these regulations will disappear? The most onerous, as I understand it - from the recent LSE report - are in the areas of workers' rights and safety in the workplace, and environmental issues. Are those advocating Brexit proposing to scrap these?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Ok I'll try one more, though I suspect we are troubled by different phenomena (not that I want to eat my pet horse of course). Ever had a *luxury car with keyless entry* broken into? Well you can thank the EU for that too.
> 
> Btw, as you well know, the directives that drag business down under a pile of unnecessary bureaucracy affect us all even if only inderectly in the form of cost of products, diminished investment returns etc.


Is EU responsible for you having luxury car? Or Mam Merkel targets you? I see. I can swap cars with you. 15 y old Hyundai and keys can be yours and no EU would touch it...dog's hair and sand thrown in gratis... :Angelic


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Is EU responsible for you having luxury car?


Partly. I have made a small fortune from long positions in the USD/GBP pair this year, all thanks to the referendum .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Partly. I have made a small fortune from long positions in the USD/GBP pair this year, all thanks to the referendum .


can imagine....pound went like lead balloon....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Britain would be so much better trading with China and USA...
Environment, animals rights, human rights, health care, industry...

Brexit would be expensive way of swapping one bunch of problems for another, maybe worse....
Not stronger


----------



## rona

Just got our voting cards with yet another propaganda leaflet telling us nothing of any relevance


----------



## scatchy

This video is not related to Brexit- it was made a few years ago but I thought it an interesting observation on the EU.


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> The downside of the whole debate is that we seem to have complete muppets leading the campaigns for both sides! Rather than people more intent on their political careers and point scoring, we just need sensible, down-to-earth, folks stating the simple, straight-forward facts for both side of the argument.


I agree. Its project fear from the key neoliberals in both camps - and its mostly centred around immigration and terrorism . The left wing campaign is one of hope rather than fear. These are two really interesting articles for lefties or for those who just what to see some lefty perspectives.

Paul Mason makes a powerful case for brexit (one day!) http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory

Yanis Varoufakis (I have a bit of a crush on Yanis lol ) urges the left to stay in. He'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose - but... - http://www.theguardian.com/politics...roufakis-tour-urging-leftwingers-vote-stay-eu The video on there with Owen Jones is well worth watching.



Satori said:


> Ok I'll try one more, though I suspect we are troubled by different phenomena (not that I want to eat my pet horse of course). Ever had a luxury car with keyless entry broken into? Well you can thank the EU for that too.
> 
> Btw, as you well know, the directives that drag business down under a pile of unnecessary bureaucracy affect us all even if only inderectly in the form of cost of products, diminished investment returns etc.





MoggyBaby said:


> The more businesses & corporations are tied up in EU red tape and legislature, the more money it costs them. Businesses & corporations are not prepared to lose that money so the cost is passed on to the consumer. So whilst people may not 'think' they are affected, they are - in their pockets!


But that red tape & bureaucracy protects us, workers rights, our environment etc. Please have a look at this article in the Ecologist - http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_a...k_could_again_be_the_dirty_man_of_europe.html Corporations will be free to pollute & poison as they please.


----------



## FeelTheBern

I would probably vote out, as the EU is costing the UK lots of money. And Boris says that the UK is better out than in. And so does Nigel. Both are great politicians in my opinion. Although I believe the UK should leave, I think the majority of people will vote to remain in the EU.
But as I cannot vote in Eurovote, what I think doesn't really matter.


Edit: My friend wrote this on my account but I won't remove it as I mainly agree with it.


----------



## MoggyBaby

noushka05 said:


> But that red tape & bureaucracy protects us, workers rights, our environment etc. Please have a look at this article in the Ecologist - http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_a...k_could_again_be_the_dirty_man_of_europe.html Corporations will be free to pollute & poison as they please.


Are you sure about that? The working environment may be safer, we may get better holidays and we may get better wages but the price that has to be paid in unpaid overtime negates some of that. Too many companies expect their workers to give more that they pay them for. They have cut job roles and farmed out the extra duties to the remaining staff. This results in people having to work earlier, later, through lunch and at home just to keep up. If they fall behind, they are not pulling their weight. They are not allowed to complain because that is frowned upon and they are 'not doing their bit.' More & more folks are finding their promotion opportunities slashed because they leave work on time. No-one stops to think of the home commitments they have to meet. In 2014, it was calculated that unpaid overtime had contributed almost £32 BILLION to the UK economy.

I think there are folks out there who would be happy to have lower wages, and less holidays, if it meant getting home at a decent time to see their kids before bedtime and spend some time with the wife. Or less stress on their shoulders from just trying to keep up with unreasonable demands.

Workers rights protected? Not really. They have just swapped one load of [email protected] for another. The employers are still getting their pounds of flesh.


----------



## noushka05

FeelTheBern said:


> I would probably vote out, as the EU is costing the UK lots of money. And Boris says that the UK is better out than in. And so does Nigel. Both are great politicians in my opinion. Although I believe the UK should leave, I think the majority of people will vote to remain in the EU.
> But as I cannot vote in Eurovote, what I think doesn't really matter.


I really surprised that a Bernie supporter would think Boris & Farage are great politicians. These two are a pair of lying fearmongers - akin to Donald Trump.



MoggyBaby said:


> Are you sure about that? The working environment may be safer, we may get better holidays and we may get better wages but the price that has to be paid in unpaid overtime negates some of that. Too many companies expect their workers to give more that they pay them for. They have cut job roles and farmed out the extra duties to the remaining staff. This results in people having to work earlier, later, through lunch and at home just to keep up. If they fall behind, they are not pulling their weight. They are not allowed to complain because that is frowned upon and they are 'not doing their bit.' More & more folks are finding their promotion opportunities slashed because they leave work on time. No-one stops to think of the home commitments they have to meet. In 2014, it was calculated that unpaid overtime had contributed almost £32 BILLION to the UK economy.
> 
> I think there are folks out there who would be happy to have lower wages, and less holidays, if it meant getting home at a decent time to see their kids before bedtime and spend some time with the wife. Or less stress on their shoulders from just trying to keep up with unreasonable demands.
> 
> Workers rights protected? Not really. They have just swapped one load of [email protected] for another. The employers are still getting their pounds of flesh.


The trade unions agree workers rights are best protected if we remain in the EU, MB.


----------



## FeelTheBern

noushka05 said:


> I really surprised that a Bernie supporter would think Boris & Farage are great politicians. These two are a pair of lying fearmongers - akin to Donald Trump.
> 
> The trade unions agree workers rights are best protected if we remain in the EU, MB.


Sorry about that-my friend was trolling on my account. BERNIE 4 PREZ!


----------



## noushka05

FeelTheBern said:


> Sorry about that-my friend was trolling on my account. BERNIE 4 PREZ!


lol No problem.

Go Bernie!  I'm doing my bit for him over on twitter. He has loads of fans this side of the pond


----------



## LinznMilly

Haven't read all the replies, and frankly, I have a 12hr shift tomorrow, so don't have the time to read 5 pages of them now, so just wanted to update my view.

I've read the booklet sent out by the Electoral commission, and dug a little deeper and visited both "camps" websites, plus read up what I can in the time I've had spare. If I vote at all, it will be to remain in the EU. I'm still not convinced it's the right decision, but the Leave Campaigners' arguments seemed to read like remaining in the EU would mean the comjing of the Apoloclypse, Armageddon, The End of The World is nighhhhhh. And my reaction to such reading was >>>>  :Shifty

*That's the official campaigners literature, not the views of this forum*.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> I really surprised that a Bernie supporter would think Boris & Farage are great politicians. These two are a pair of lying fearmongers - akin to Donald Trump.


You are sounding more and more like David Cameron.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> You are sounding more and more like David Cameron.


 How very dare you!

:Hilarious


----------



## FeelTheBern

@noushka05 I still think we're better out.


----------



## noushka05

FeelTheBern said:


> @noushka05 I still think we're better out.


One day maybe - http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ferendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## MoggyBaby

LinznMilly said:


> Haven't read all the replies, and frankly, I have a 12hr shift tomorrow, so don't have the time to read 5 pages of them now, so just wanted to update my view.
> 
> I've read the booklet sent out by the Electoral commission, and dug a little deeper and visited both "camps" websites, plus read up what I can in the time I've had spare. If I vote at all, it will be to remain in the EU. I'm still not convinced it's the right decision, _*but the Leave Campaigners' arguments seemed to read like remaining in the EU would mean the comjing of the Apoloclypse, Armageddon, The End of The World is nighhhhhh*_. And my reaction to such reading was >>>>  :Shifty
> 
> *That's the official campaigners literature, not the views of this forum*.


And David Camerons view that LEAVING the EU could result in World War 3 is ok then......??

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607

Both sides seem to be singing the same lyrics, just to a different tune!


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> And David Camerons view that LEAVING the EU could result in World War 3 is ok then......??
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
> 
> Both sides seem to be singing the same lyrics, just to a different tune!


Its only the neoliberals on both sides that are playing the fear & hate cards, MB. It is not happening in the progressives remain campaign. Theirs is a very different argument for remaining in the EU.


----------



## LinznMilly

MoggyBaby said:


> And David Camerons view that LEAVING the EU could result in World War 3 is ok then......??
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
> 
> Both sides seem to be singing the same lyrics, just to a different tune!


Is there any need to be so abrupt? Just because I happen to be currently leaning towards voting In? I found the Remain campaign's argument more persuasive. That is all. And for reasons I explained in the post you quoted, I didn't have time to read all the replies to this thread - all 5 pages of them.

I don't listen to a word Cameron says. I won't be persuaded by his argument. I have been, currently, more persuaded by the literature I have received and the websites I have visited which argue the case for remaining in the EU.

Personally, I find the thought of handing over pretty much total control to the Tories and Labour, to be mildly more terrifying than the United States of Europe.

I'm really considering taking my right to refrain from voting because I think we're screwed either way....

And if The Powers That Be (aka the Bankers) want another world war, being in Europe, or Brexit is not going to make an ounce of difference.


----------



## rona

LinznMilly said:


> Personally, I find the thought of handing over pretty much total control to the Tories and Labour, to be mildly more terrifying than the United States of Europe.


At least our political parties can be voted out. Federal state of Europe just rolls on and on and on answerable to no one


----------



## Mr Gizmo

I haven't looked it up but does anyone know if prisoners are allowed to vote ?


----------



## LinznMilly

rona said:


> At least our political parties can be voted out. Federal state of Europe just rolls on and on and on answerable to no one


And which of the main parties would you trust with absolute control? OK, we can vote them out, but nothing ever changes. That's why I spoil my general election ballots, or vote for someone who isn't likely to get in and which is why I'm tempted not to vote at all in the referendum.


----------



## rona

LinznMilly said:


> And which of the main parties would you trust with absolute control? OK, we can vote them out, but nothing ever changes. That's why I spoil my general election ballots, or vote for someone who isn't likely to get in and which is why I'm tempted not to vote at all in the referendum.


I wouldn't but I trust Europe less


----------



## Satori

Mr Gizmo said:


> I haven't looked it up but does anyone know if prisoners are allowed to vote ?


We're all prisoners.

(Unless we vote leave)


----------



## rona

Paxman has changed my mind from 95% out to 100% out


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> At least our political parties can be voted out. *Federal state of Europe just rolls on and on and on answerable to no one*


*We vote in our MEP don't we, and they are answerable to us aren't they.*


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> *We vote in our MEP don't we, and they are answerable to us aren't they.*


The council isn't


----------



## MoggyBaby

Just a wee note to say, at this time your votes on the poll can't be changed but, on the 1st of June, I'll amend that so you can change your vote. I think this will keep it all more interesting but lets folks change their minds if they have been swayed by the various discussions.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> The council isn't


Do you mean the European Council, made up mostly of the heads of government in each of the member states? Are they not answerable to their voters?


----------



## Colliebarmy

Arnie83 said:


> Do you mean the European Council, made up mostly of the heads of government in each of the member states? Are they not answerable to their voters?


Do you really need to ask? ok, in theory yes, in reality they dont give a ratsass


----------



## Colliebarmy

EU exit vote....no point voting to stay if you voted either way in the General Election because if we stay we are handing the country on a plate to Brussels and opening the floodgates to 2 million Turks to invade us.....

"The Former United Kingdom" headed stationery has been ordered


----------



## Lurcherlad

Still out. In fact I'm more out than I was before!


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> Do you really need to ask? ok, in theory yes, in reality they dont give a ratsass


If the members of the Council are elected by the voters in their own countries - which they are - then, whether they care or not, it gives the Council democratic legitimacy.



Colliebarmy said:


> EU exit vote....no point voting to stay if you voted either way in the General Election because if we stay we are handing the country on a plate to Brussels and opening the floodgates to 2 million Turks to invade us.....
> 
> "The Former United Kingdom" headed stationery has been ordered


In what way will a Remain vote hand the country on a plate to Brussels?

And Turkish accession to the EU is dependent on the UK (and all the other 27 members) not exercising their veto. Personally I would veto Turkish entry until they passed the 35 chapters - they've managed 1 since 1987, and since Erdogan took over in 2014 they've been going backwards rather than forwards - and until the transition arrangements were amended to ensure we weren't 'invaded' by large numbers. Why would we do anything else?

Given that a UK Brexit would very likely lead to the break-up of the UK, I would agree with your stationery comment.


----------



## havoc

I'm fed up with both sides scaremongering but I want to use my vote so I'm going to ask my (adult) children where they'd like me to place my X. It's going to affect the generation down far more than it will me.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Given that a UK Brexit would very likely lead to the break-up of the UK.....

The SNP tried once, got blown away by a NO vote, now want another vote, they want away anyway, et em go I say


----------



## Colliebarmy

havoc said:


> I'm fed up with both sides scaremongering but I want to use my vote so I'm going to ask my (adult) children where they'd like me to place my X. It's going to affect the generation down far more than it will me.


The harder HMG push, the greater the resistance ..... middle England will decide


----------



## FeelTheBern

Mr Gizmo said:


> I haven't looked it up but does anyone know if prisoners are allowed to vote ?


Don't you mean that you haven't "locked" it up?


----------



## jenny armour

I voted not to join in 1975 and I haven't changed my mind


----------



## Honeys mum

If it's left to the EU, we will have no countryside left soon.

EU tells Britain to build more migrant homes as open borders send population soaring | Daily Mail Online


----------



## Honeys mum

Saw this on a friends Facebook page.

piffle - YouTube


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Ifit's left to the EU, we will have no countryside left soon.
> 
> EU tells Britain to build more migrant homes as open borders send population soaring | Daily Mail Online


Please don't fall for DM scaremongering @Honeys mum. The tories are the greatest threat to our countryside, NOT migrants & NOT the EU. If the countryside & green issues are a priority of yours then please listen to those who genuinely care about & fight for our natural world - the Green NGOs & the Green Party.

http://mollymep.org.uk/2016/05/23/leaving-eu-threatens-iconic-conservation-sites-warns-mep/

https://www.foe.co.uk/blog/what-has-eu-ever-done-us

Former Environment minister Lord Deben hits the nail on the head.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Please don't fall for DM scaremongering @Honeys mum. The tories are the greatest threat to our countryside, NOT migrants & NOT the EU. If the countryside & green issues are a priority of yours then please listen to those who genuinely care about & fight for our natural world - the Green NGOs & the Green Party.


noushka, I have know which way I will be voting from day one. and nothing that anyone prints or says will make me change my mind on which way I vote.
I do relalise D.C. wants more houses, it's happening everywhere, even near us, spoiling the countryside where we live.
Howevr I do relalise that staying in the EU, will not help this situation. This is only one of the reasons I believe we should be leaving the E.U.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> noushka, I have now which way I will be voting from day one. and nothing that anyone prints or says will make me change my mind on which way I vote.
> I do relalise D.C. wants more houses, it's happening everywhere, even near us, spoiling the countryside where we live.
> Howevr I do relalise that staying in the EU, will not help this situation. This is only one of the reasons I believe we should be leaving the E.U.


Sorry from your post I assumed you might be interested in what was best for nature. Tory sell off of social housing has created the shortage & Cameron isnt building more social housing. The majority of EU migrants live in private rented accomodation - so migrants are once again being used to scaremonger by those who care nothing about our environment. http://www.housing-rights.info/renting-from-a-private-landlord.php


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Sorry from your post I assumed you might be interested in what was best for nature. Tory sell off of social housing has created the shortage & Cameron isnt building more social housing. The majority of EU migrants live in private rented accomodation - so migrants are once again being used to scaremonger by those who care nothing about our environment. http://www.housing-rights.info/renting-from-a-private-landlord.php


No need to say sorry noushka however, after just spending over 2 years trying to fight developers from building in the lovely country side around us, I do care about the environment. But that's another story.

But , no scaremongering from either side will make me change my mind.


----------



## havoc

If we leave the EU - and kick out all non-British citizens will there be enough good quality, affordable housing to go round? If the answer is yes then I understand those who will vote to leave for that reason. If not then it has to get struck off the list as an issue. I just wish someone would answer such questions with truthful figures instead of spinning generalisations. So far what we've been told is that house prices will go up or down, there will either be an increase or decrease in the number of jobs, interest rates will either increase or not etc. etc. etc.

What really surprises me is that Kent is an area most likely to have a very high proportion of 'leave' votes. If I lived in Kent I'd want that border kept firmly on the other side of the channel. If we do vote to leave I reckon property in and around Calais is going to be a smart investment as the Jungle moves across the water.


----------



## Honeys mum

Now we are being told this.Wonder what it will be tomorrow.?David Cameron warns Britons will pay hundreds more to holiday in Europe after Brexit | UK | News | Daily Express


----------



## havoc

Things like holidays aren't an issue for me. I'm more bothered about having to pay import duty on things like my Zooplus orders. If we leave will the same limits apply as currently for non EU stuff?


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Now we are being told this.Wonder what it will be tomorrow.?David Cameron warns Britons will pay hundreds more to holiday in Europe after Brexit | UK | News | Daily Express


Do you think the Remain side shouldn't mention things like this? Or do you disagree with the economics behind it?


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> Things like holidays aren't an issue for me. I'm more bothered about having to pay import duty on things like my Zooplus orders. If we leave will the same limits apply as currently for non EU stuff?


Maybe more will buy British if we have the same or equivalent product. That's a good thing as far as I can see


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> Do you think the Remain side shouldn't mention things like this? Or do you disagree with the economics behind it


I'm not saying they shouldn't say these things, but I do wonder where they get the percentage's from 
they quote. They never show you any evidence.


----------



## havoc

_Maybe more will buy British if we have the same or equivalent product. That's a good thing as far as I can see_
It's only good for me if it doesn't cost me more. All the arguments from both sides on the 'bigger picture' are pure speculation and scaremongering spin so I look to how it would affect me in my everyday life. I know how it will be if we remain, the only changes will be if we exit so it's things like whether consumer and employee protections will be affected and whether the choices I have now will be diminished which I can consider.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I would be happy to pay a little more for things that are produced here, just as I pay a bit more for free range food, etc.

If UK producers get paid enough to stay in business the knock on effect for the economy has to be positive, surely? More jobs, etc.


----------



## Satori

Lurcherlad said:


> I would be happy to pay a little more for things that are produced here, just as I pay a bit more for free range food, etc.
> 
> If UK producers get paid enough to stay in business the knock on effect for the economy has to be positive, surely? More jobs, etc.


There we go. This exactly. If only more people could see the obvious logic.


----------



## Honeys mum

Lurcherlad said:


> I would be happy to pay a little more for things that are produced here, just as I pay a bit more for free range food, etc.
> 
> If UK producers get paid enough to stay in business the knock on effect for the economy has to be positive, surely? More jobs, etc.


I would also be happy to pay more for British produce.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> No need to say sorry noushka however, after just spending over 2 years trying to fight developers from building in the lovely country side around us, I do care about the environment. But that's another story.
> 
> But , no scaremongering from either side will make me change my mind.


If your mind is made up I know nothing I, or anyone says, is going to change it  . But its only scaremongering if its untrue. And the reason developers are now allowed to build in lovely countryside (even irreplaceable habitat) is, again, solely due to ecocidal Tory policies. When they passed the monstrous Infrastructure Bill it removed 'red tape' that once protected our countryside from big business. Osborne & Cameron have been very busy 'getting rid of all the green crap'. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/nov/29/autumn-statement-george-osborne-green-policies

At least under the EU we are obliged to adhere to minimum standards that protect nature & the air we breath, the food we eat, etc. The brexit camp want rid of EU regulations which protect us & our environment. 'Cutting red tape' - in reality, often means releasing corporate interests from democracy. Disastrous for us and for the natural world. Climate change is the greatest threat we face, we should be terrified as we stand on the brink of catastrophic climate breakdown yet the EU & migrants are more worrying to a mass of people. I just don't get it :/ The science on climate change could not be clearer. Don't people want a habitable planet? Isnt saving our biosphere the most important thing we face?


----------



## Arnie83

Lurcherlad said:


> I would be happy to pay a little more for things that are produced here, just as I pay a bit more for free range food, etc.
> 
> If UK producers get paid enough to stay in business the knock on effect for the economy has to be positive, surely? More jobs, etc.





Satori said:


> There we go. This exactly. If only more people could see the obvious logic.


'Obvious logic' is rarely that simple in economics.

If consumers are spending a little more for things that are produced here, then they have a little less to spend on other things. So those producing and selling those other things see a reduction in demand, and that costs jobs.

It's more complicated than that as well, but suffice it to say that an increase in prices (which is the effect of more expensive products wherever they are made) does not lead to increased employment unless there is even more increasing demand, which is a function of the money in the economy. And no-one is suggesting that the money in the economy is going to leap upwards in the immediate aftermath of a Brexit especially while Osborne is looking to balance the budget by 2020.


----------



## Satori

^ nobody was suggesting there would be more jobs in the world. The implication is that there would be a transfer of jobs into the UK in the event that more consumption was from local sources.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> I'm not saying they shouldn't say these things, but I do wonder where they get the percentage's from
> they quote. They never show you any evidence.


Evidence for future events is hard to come by, especially where economic predictions are concerned.

If it helps, the Treasury assumed a decrease in the value of sterling of 12% over 2 years. A quick google shows that, by comparison, HSBC have predicted a 20% decline, Goldman Sachs predict 15-20%, UBS predicted a 20% fall, reaching parity with the Euro. The Treasury figures seem quite conservative by comparison.

After that it's just a calculation of the average price of a family holiday, and multiply.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> ^ nobody was suggesting there would be more jobs in the world. The implication is that there would be a transfer of jobs into the UK in the event that more consumption was from local sources.


I was referring only to the UK, not to the world.

If you have £10 to spend and you spend a little more of it on new home produced goods then you have less of it to spend on other home produced goods.

Though to take it internationally, if you still have to buy foreign produced goods with a worsening exchange rate (see above) then you have even less to spend.

For it to be good news for the UK, you have to ignore a lot of downsides.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I was referring only to the UK, not to the world.
> 
> If you have £10 to spend and you spend a little more of it on new home produced goods then you have less of it to spend on other home produced goods.


But the person you gave the £10 to can spend it on wages, cost of goods, taxes, profit and dividends. So it still ends up in the economy. It doesn't evaporate.

If the citizens of country A stop buying an imported product from country B and instead buy it from a company resident in country A you cannot seriously be trying to tell us that the economy of country A does not benefit. That's completely ridiculous.


----------



## havoc

What's stopped anyone who wants to support home industry buying British made products? I'd have thought the British appetite for cheap Chinese made goods has had far more effect on our manufacturing industry and that has nothing to do with the EU.


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> What's stopped anyone who wants to support home industry buying British made products? I'd have thought the British appetite for cheap Chinese made goods has had far more effect on our manufacturing industry and that has nothing to do with the EU.


Not according to data
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/OTS.aspx

We are often working at a huge disadvantage against EU countries as well as others too, just ask out farmers


----------



## havoc

So what has stopped people buying British goods and why will they start to do so if we leave the EU? Other than taking away the choice I don't understand why people will suddenly start to do something they could have done anyway but have chosen not to.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Saw this on Sky News ....made me smile because it's what a lot of people on this thread have been saying. 

http://news.sky.com/story/1702116/brexit-mp-slams-govt-psychological-warfare

J


----------



## noushka05

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Saw this on Sky News ....made me smile because it's what a lot of people on this thread have been saying.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/1702116/brexit-mp-slams-govt-psychological-warfare
> 
> J


Hes doing exactly what he did in the Scottish referendum, the general election & London mayoral election - lying & scaremongering. Even though I will likely vote to remain it will be NOTHING Cameron says that sways me. Like wise Farage, Johnson, Gove, Hunt & co use the exact same tactics. And I never trust the word of a pathological liar - from ANY camp.

That's why I am listening to Green NGOs, the health professionals, Caroline Lucas & the Green Party & other respected people & organisations. Ken Loach nails it for me. The far right are rising again, not just here but right across Europe.


----------



## Honeys mum

Brexit will make us richer. That's why Leave could still win

In the daily Telegraph today.


----------



## noushka05

This mural in Bristol is brilliant  It was created by We Are Europe. - http://weareeurope.org.uk/

...*the travel, our rights, better cities and clean air; 70 years of peace; women and men, parents and kids; the right to love whoever we want; science, art, music and culture; our spare time and our work time; action on climate change and the fight against global poverty; food and farmers, protected wildlife and beautiful beaches; our friends and our families; and the freedom to live, study, work and play in 28 countries…*


----------



## noushka05

Makes me laugh how the key bexit players suddenly care about our NHS. The brexit MPs voted with the government on every single destructive policy that has brought our precious NHS to its knees. Now they are using it in their campaign...

*Martin McKee* ‏@martinmckee  May 23
Does ex Education Secretary Michael Gove need a lesson in statistics before arguing for #Brexit ?My letter in Times


----------



## Hanwombat

I'm still voting out


----------



## Satori

333,000 !!!!!

That's three hundred and thirty three thousand.

Nobody can seriously imagine this is sustainable. It isn't. It just isn't.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Makes me laugh how the key bexit players suddenly care about our NHS. The brexit MPs voted with the government on every single destructive policy that has brought our precious NHS to its knees. Now they are using it in their campaign...
> 
> *Martin McKee* ‏@martinmckee  May 23
> Does ex Education Secretary Michael Gove need a lesson in statistics before arguing for #Brexit ?My letter in Times


While in charge of education, Gove said that he wanted the performance of every school to be above average.

Maths not really his strong suit!


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> But the person you gave the £10 to can spend it on wages, cost of goods, taxes, profit and dividends. So it still ends up in the economy. It doesn't evaporate.
> 
> If the citizens of country A stop buying an imported product from country B and instead buy it from a company resident in country A you cannot seriously be trying to tell us that the economy of country A does not benefit. That's completely ridiculous.


Certainly the multiplier effect would work in the way you suggest in some cases. It would, though, depend on where the raw materials came from, who owned the company and whether any profits were ploughed back into the UK economy as opposed to the various alternatives.

But we started this exchange with the assumption that the new company would be charging a higher price than what was currently available, and that necessarily imposes an opportunity cost on the rest of the economy. As I said, it isn't anywhere near as simple as you suggest, but I think I'll quit before I start quoting from my old economics textbooks!


----------



## Honeys mum

They show that more than ever, this country needs a majority Conservative government - one which aims to get net migration into the tens of thousands - and that remains our ambition. I said on the steps of Downing Street we would be a 'one nation' party. That means governing for every single person in Britain: for the mum worrying about her child getting a school place; for the pensioner fearing he won't get the hospital appointment he needs; for the Asian family whose business is being undercut by illegal traders; for the young couple praying that someone won't jump ahead of them on the housing list and yes - for the migrants trafficked here to live in appalling conditions on pitiful wages. We are for them. We are for working people. For them, we will control immigration.

The above is taken from a speech made by David Cameron on 21st May 2015.

EU Referendum: Record number of migrants arrive in UK without jobs, as Boris Johnson accuses David Cameron of "deeply damaging" faith in democracy

The above article is in the Daily Telegraph today.

My point being, why would you trust this man.


----------



## sharloid

I really wanted to vote but we'll be travelling at the time. I registered for a postal vote thinking it would come in time but nope. :'(


----------



## Arnie83

sharloid said:


> I really wanted to vote but we'll be travelling at the time. I registered for a postal vote thinking it would come in time but nope. :'(


Is it too late to arrange a proxy vote?

I would offer myself as that proxy but I'd be afraid that @Satori would take out a contract on me!


----------



## rona

Puppets, that's all we are 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...overnment-pledges-to-cut-vat-on-a7041516.html


----------



## sharloid

Arnie83 said:


> Is it too late to arrange a proxy vote?
> 
> I would offer myself as that proxy but I'd be afraid that @Satori would take out a contract on me!


The only person I trust is travelling with me sadly.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I just be glad when it's all over the whole thing is driving me mad. I can make my own mind up without the lies coming from both sides, and Boris is really doing my head in.


----------



## emmaviolet

I have changed to defiantly in now, however I am sick of both sides scaremongering.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> While in charge of education, Gove said that he wanted the performance of every school to be above average.
> 
> Maths not really his strong suit!


Maths is most definitely not his strongest point. No lol And to be fair, its not George Osbornes either. This clown inherited a debt of £760 billion. And "reduced" it to £1526 billion 



Honeys mum said:


> They show that more than ever, this country needs a majority Conservative government - one which aims to get net migration into the tens of thousands - and that remains our ambition. I said on the steps of Downing Street we would be a 'one nation' party. That means governing for every single person in Britain: for the mum worrying about her child getting a school place; for the pensioner fearing he won't get the hospital appointment he needs; for the Asian family whose business is being undercut by illegal traders; for the young couple praying that someone won't jump ahead of them on the housing list and yes - for the migrants trafficked here to live in appalling conditions on pitiful wages. We are for them. We are for working people. For them, we will control immigration.
> 
> The above is taken from a speech made by David Cameron on 21st May 2015.
> 
> EU Referendum: Record number of migrants arrive in UK without jobs, as Boris Johnson accuses David Cameron of "deeply damaging" faith in democracy
> 
> *The above article is in the Daily Telegraph today.
> 
> My point being, why would you trust this man*
> 
> .


I have NEVER trusted that man. Nor would I ever trust Farage, Johnson, Gove, Hunt.....

Dangerous, pathological liars the lot of em!



emmaviolet said:


> I have changed to defiantly in now, however I am sick of both sides scaremongering.


Same here. The right wingers in both camps will do & say ANYTHING to get votes. I do not want to be left solely in the hands of a bunch of right wing extremists. So unless something drastic happens to change my mind, I am definitely voting to stay.










Owen Jones sums up perfectly why I will be voting to remain. I urge pro brexiters to listen to what he has to say on TTIP . the NHS, Turkey etc


----------



## Honeys mum

Voters in the EU referendum 'told to vote for Remain in postal vote guide', prompting protests from Brexiteers

Any one had one of these.


----------



## CanIgoHome

I've just watched a film for the out vote on you tube called Brexit the movie it an hour &11 minutes long


----------



## Colliebarmy

Why should ex-pats living on the Costa del Crime since 1975 have a UK/EU vote?, they only worry about care homes and the NHS, some fly back for treatment!


----------



## kimthecat

Honeys mum said:


> Voters in the EU referendum 'told to vote for Remain in postal vote guide', prompting protests from Brexiteers
> 
> Any one had one of these.


I had a postal vote and sent it off already but didnt see anything about what to vote for .


----------



## Siskin

We've had our postal votes @sharloid, they came last week. So voted and all done and dusted. Speaking to friends who have also posted voted, they have voted opposite to what we have and have cancelled out each other's vote.


----------



## Honeys mum

Brexit campaign WILL win says academic | UK | News | Daily Express

Meddling EU will set the rules for the NHS if Britain votes remain, Commons chief warns | UK | News | Daily Express


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Brexit campaign WILL win says academic | UK | News | Daily Express
> 
> Meddling EU will set the rules for the NHS if Britain votes remain, Commons chief warns | UK | News | Daily Express


Good to see the Brexit side aren't scaremongering at all!


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> I just be glad when it's all over the whole thing is driving me mad. I can make my own mind up without the lies coming from both sides, and Boris is really doing my head in.


Yes. Boris and Cameron have covered themselves in sh1t; Osborne too. Hard to imagine any of them being the Conservative party leader this time next year.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Meanwhile...
It is just surreal here...
Like when someone is about to die.
Our little place that is our home....

In three weeks freefall will start....
Companies are folding down already..

After Brexit many British would have to go back...you cannot call them immigrants but still they would need place to live, schools, jobs, health care. 
If things get really bad we would have no option...


----------



## MoggyBaby

As promised, the poll has now been amended to allow folks to change their minds if they have been swayed from their original viewpoints.


----------



## MiffyMoo

MoggyBaby said:


> As promised, the poll has now been amended to allow folks to change their minds if they have been swayed from their original viewpoints.


I find this poll very interesting, as I would say that there is a huge cross section on here, so nobody could point to the results and say "oh well, you only asked x section of the community, so of course that would be their answer". I'm far more likely to believe this poll than any of the official ones


----------



## Satori

MiffyMoo said:


> I find this poll very interesting, as I would say that there is a huge cross section on here, so nobody could point to the results and say "oh well, you only asked x section of the community, so of course that would be their answer". I'm far more likely to believe this poll than any of the official ones


Hmmm. Don't forget the famous MoggyBaby poll from this time last year that predicted a runaway general election victory for the Labour Party.

(I hope you are right though).


----------



## MiffyMoo

Satori said:


> Hmmm. Don't forget the famous MoggyBaby poll from this time last year that predicted a runaway general election victory for the Labour Party.
> 
> (I hope you are right though).


Ahh, I wasn't on a year ago, but I'm hoping this one doesn't follow suit


----------



## MollySmith

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...al-battle-big-beasts-referendum-boris-johnson

Pretty much sums it up for me.


----------



## MollySmith

And Vivienne too. I want this t-shirt - it's spot on.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> And Vivienne too. I want this t-shirt - it's spot on.


The thing is, the older generation are the only ones that know what it can be like outside the EU. The younger generation could be voting through fear of the unknown.

Just look at what's happened to this country since 1973...........................


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> The thing is, the older generation are the only ones that know what it can be like outside the EU. The younger generation could be voting through fear of the unknown.
> 
> Just look at what's happened to this country since 1973...........................


What _has_ happened to this country since 1973?

And what would have happened had we not joined the EU?


----------



## Satori

Is anyone else irritated by the fact that the first official TV referendum debates of the campaign are being shown on SKY and only on SKY, thereby excluding millions of households from the democratic process?

Anyhow, the first one (from last night) is on YouTube and well worth watching. David Cameron gets a good battering.






Gove's turn tonight I think.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Satori said:


> Is anyone else irritated by the fact that the first official TV referendum debates of the campaign are being shown on SKY and only on SKY, thereby excluding millions of households from the democratic process?
> 
> Anyhow, the first one (from last night) is on YouTube and well worth watching. David Cameron gets a good battering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gove's turn tonight I think.


We watched about 40 mins of this and he got thumped!!!!! The young uni student was particularly eloquent "I'm an English Lit student and I know waffle when I hear it......" - way to go girl!!!!


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> The thing is, the older generation are the only ones that know what it can be like outside the EU. The younger generation could be voting through fear of the unknown.
> 
> Just look at what's happened to this country since 1973...........................


It would never be the same as it was back then. It is impossible, the world has changed, our country has changed with it. Those who say it will be like it was are very much mistaken. It's over and you cannot go back, for better or worse.


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> It would never be the same as it was back then. It is impossible, the world has changed, our country has changed with it. Those who say it will be like it was are very much mistaken. It's over and you cannot go back, for better or worse.


No, I agree, we can't go back 
We can have a better future though for those that can see past the gravy train of the EU


----------



## Guest

Like an interfering neighbour I`m putting my penny´s worth here. Here in the back of beyond we have a politician, who wants us to exit EU too. He also wants everything to be just like it was 30 years ago, as he claims all was so much better then. Was that true for most of us? Nope. Things were not that good, the only thing that was better that we were younger. Things were really bad for all the animals and poor people. Not much equality either. Things are better now, and especially the animals can thank EU for that. Naturally things are nowhere near as good as they should be, but better. And improving. Slowly, but still getting there. 

Turning back in time would mean genuinely losing so much that we have achieved. And doing that now, when we have huge problems with nature, wars and terrorism, refugees and unemployment. All of which would be much worse if we didn´t have European Union. Have we forgotten already what Europe was like before? 1939-1944 might ring a bell.


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> No, I agree, we can't go back
> We can have a better future though for those that can see past the gravy train of the EU


In what ways would it be better though? You was saying about how it was before, but now agree it can never be the same, so what exactly will it be like? I can't imagine it would be a happy and joyous place, if this government were given free reign, the economy will be worse off (this is from most sources) after we leave for a while, so more cuts go to the weakest in society to burden it.

I can't see a better future.


----------



## rona

MrsZee said:


> He also wants everything to be just like it was 30 years ago,


I don't want to turn back time and we were very poor but happy. No one is happy anymore


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> In what ways would it be better though? *You was saying about how it was before,* but now agree it can never be the same, so what exactly will it be like? I can't imagine it would be a happy and joyous place, if this government were given free reign, the economy will be worse off (this is from most sources) *after we leave for a while, so more cuts go to the weakest in society to burden it.*
> 
> I can't see a better future.


I didn't say about what it was like before, just what it's been like since
See I don't see it that way. All I see are fat cats getting fatter on the backs of the poor in the EU


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> I don't want to turn back time and we were very poor but happy. No one is happy anymore


It's because you are looking back. It's been proven when you remember something, it's usually with the thoughts that you was very happy then.
It's the way memory works.

If people want to be happy, they can choose it, but sometimes people are self destructive and look for ways to sabotague themselves and look for things to dislike and complain about, instead of enjoying life. We can all be happy if we choose.


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> It's because you are looking back. It's been proven when you remember something, it's usually with the thoughts that you was very happy then.
> It's the way memory works.
> 
> If people want to be happy, they can choose it, but sometimes people are self destructive and look for ways to sabotague themselves and look for things to dislike and complain about, instead of enjoying life. We can all be happy if we choose.


I'm not looking back with rose coloured specks, I just know what I've seen over the years that have been badly influenced by not just the EU but the single minded worship of money

PS. I'm happier now than I've ever been. Just wised up


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> I didn't say about what it was like before, just what it's been like since
> See I don't see it that way. All I see are fat cats getting fatter on the backs of the poor in the EU


You said the older generation are the only ones who know what it will be like, but it will nothing like that because it just cannot be.
Yes they are, but it does a lot of good too. Without it, it will just be the fat cats who are part of Cameron's gang getting fatter, it won't benefit any of the general population.


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> *You said the older generation are the only ones who know what it will be like*, but it will nothing like that because it just cannot be.
> Yes they are, but it does a lot of good too. Without it, it will just be the fat cats who are part of Cameron's gang getting fatter, it won't benefit any of the general population.


No I didn't!!!


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> The thing is, the older generation are the only ones that know what it can be like outside the EU. The younger generation could be voting through fear of the unknown.
> 
> Just look at what's happened to this country since 1973...........................





rona said:


> No I didn't!!!


Ok.


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> You said the older generation are the only ones who know what it will be like,





emmaviolet said:


> Ok.


I think you need to read my post again.


----------



## cheekyscrip

@MrsZee , I am with you.

Brexit will weaken our part of Europe, everything it stands for!
Tolerance, democracy, liberty, environment protection, human rights!

We have Russian submarines in Spanish Ceuta ...20 km from Gibraltar..where USA use British Navy base...

Weak EU plays into Putin's hands...he is WAITING to get back Ukraine, Pribaltika and Belarus!
Ok..you do not think it has anything to do with you?

This is what you though in 1938 about Anschluss of Austria, in 1939 about invasion of Poland...
Yet in 1941 it landed on your doorstep!!!

So yes. Cameron , like or not , is right on that one. Obama is right.

Trump is wrong. Johnson is wrong.
EU protects their countries from Chinese overcapacity...
You do not care about it?

Look at your steel industry! And others!

EU has to stand together when Middle East threat of terrorism is rising.

Brexit will just swap one he's of problems for another...
But if democratic European countries and USA lose their strength Britain would lose too!

It will land on your doorstep again!

Britain cannot move to Oceania and join Australia!

No matter what Johnson says you are put. In Europe.
You cannot just walk away while actually there is a real threat from Middle East and Russia, economic threat from Asia and TTIP...

Poland, Czech, Hungary and so on in long run made EU much stronger!

In those times we have to be united not divided.

It is not scaredmongering.
Just common sense people!

If Europe falls Britain will too.

There is no come backs in history.

No man is an island, and no country either.

Remain. Because we have one world, one planet and you cannot really walk away from that.


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> I think you need to read my post again.


It's ok Rona, I read it and understood it perfectly well thank you.


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> It's ok Rona, I read it and understood it perfectly well thank you.


How can you say that when the person that wrote it is telling you that you read and understood it wrong. Jeez.....is this what is happening with this campaign too 

If you can't understand something as simple as this god help us

And breath...........please explain what you believe I was saying and what point I was making?


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> How can you say that when the person that wrote it is telling you that you read and understood it wrong. Jeez.....is this what is happening with this campaign too
> 
> If you can't understand something as simple as this god help us
> 
> And breath...........please explain what you believe I was saying and what point I was making?


Don't worry Rona, I understand perfectly, everything. Thank you.


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> It's ok Rona, I read it and understood it perfectly well thank you.


Then please explain? I want to know how you read it 
I can then put you straight


----------



## MollySmith

I think it's very hard for anyone under the age of say 45 to understand what life was like before 1973. Its great to acknowledge and learn from what is now history (gulp!) but how useful is that context to this vote I wonder? This country won't ever be an 'Empire' again and thank goodness it won't because with that Empire were some horrific stories of slavery and self importance.

Yes, lots has happened since 1973. The internet, the mobile phone, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the Euro, the Lisbon treaty, invention of Apple and Microsoft, Thatcher, cable tv, women in space, ethnic 'cleansing' in the former Yugoslavia, human genome sequence, 9/11, Facebook, end of the IRA violence campaign..... loads of things that we have to contextualise to make a vote on 23rd.

What is useful about Westwood is reminding us all to vote. That's really important.


----------



## MollySmith

And here's Patrick Stewart on what happened before 1970s and why that matters too. 
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...war-europe-unite-reject-isolationism-leave-eu


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> I think it's very hard for anyone under the age of say 45 to understand what life was like before 1973. Its great to acknowledge and learn from what is now history (gulp!) but how useful is that context to this vote I wonder? This country won't ever be an 'Empire' again and thank goodness it won't because with that Empire were some horrific stories of slavery and self importance.


Have you missed my point too?

The 1973 was only in reference to when we joined the EU, not as a point in time held up as something better. Though I hate how the EU interferes in every day life. 
The thing about age was to highlight that youngsters have no possible idea of how it can/could be not how it will be, and therefore must hold more fear, whereas the oldies hold less fear having lived outside the institution.
The only usefulness to the vote is the decades of experience and knowledge


----------



## cheekyscrip

Today dd asked me what will happen to us if Britain leaves EU.
My youngest asked "Will we be homeless on the street? Will Spanish throw us out?"
"Why British are so selfish and just care about themselves?"
He is nine and I have no answers.


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> Then please explain? I want to know how you read it
> I can then put you straight


It's ok Rona, I get it, I get you very clearly.
It's all good, I'm happy, all is well.


----------



## Lilylass

Well ...... I have my ballot paper


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit will just trade one sets of problems for another.

While it will be good for Russia, IS, TTIP...
Every power that gains when Europe loses...
Guess what?
You would not be better off in alliance with Russia or China.
Neither on your own.


----------



## emmaviolet

Lilylass said:


> Well ...... I have my ballot paper


I sent mine off in the post this morning.


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> Have you missed my point too?
> 
> The 1973 was only in reference to when we joined the EU, not as a point in time held up as something better. Though I hate how the EU interferes in every day life.
> The thing about age was to highlight that youngsters have no possible idea of how it can/could be not how it will be, and therefore must hold more fear, whereas the oldies hold less fear having lived outside the institution.
> The only usefulness to the vote is the decades of experience and knowledge


No, I understood the meaning of the date and my response was that lots of good things have happened and some of those things give context and useful knowledge to those of us who are a little younger. For both sides of the debate


----------



## MollySmith

I'll confess I don't yet know the way I will vote. I sort of think I do but I'm really struggling to cut out the dick waving egos of the politicians!


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> I'll confess I don't yet know the way I will vote. I sort of think I do but I'm really struggling to cut out the dick waving egos of the politicians!


I feel that I know which way I'm voting but I'm still listening to anything that's not just scaremongering. It's far too important not to keep an open mind


----------



## cheekyscrip

MollySmith said:


> I'll confess I don't yet know the way I will vote. I sort of think I do but I'm really struggling to cut out the dick waving egos of the politicians!


Well...what would you rather have as work leading powers?
Russia?
China?
Or EU with USA flawed as they are...
Like thinking about human rights ..environment...animal rights...democracy...


----------



## MollySmith

cheekyscrip said:


> Well...what would you rather have as work leading powers?
> Russia?
> China?
> Or EU with USA flawed as they are...
> Like thinking about human rights ..environment...animal rights...democracy...


Yes good point and yours too @rona. I'm keeping an open (ish) mind until the last moment and yes still sticking to my principles.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MollySmith said:


> Yes good point and yours too @rona. I'm keeping an open (ish) mind until the last moment and yes still sticking to my principles.


If in doubt:


----------



## Lilylass

cheekyscrip said:


> Well...what would you rather have as work leading powers?
> Russia?
> China?
> Or EU with USA flawed as they are...
> Like thinking about human rights ..environment...animal rights...democracy...


Since the EU & USA aren't managing to stop China and Russia from doing what they want now I really can't see how us being in the EU makes any difference to that ....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lilylass said:


> Since the EU & USA aren't managing to stop China and Russia from doing what they want now I really can't see how us being in the EU makes any difference to that ....


They actually stop them quite a lot.
Imagine Putin on the loose...
Or Britain having more and more ties with Putin...or China...

Think environment and human rights...
Tibet
Lithuania, Ukraine and so on...
The world really.
EU without Great Britain loses lots of power to put in sanctions, restrictions etc...

Britain would be forced to let China and Russia in more as partners...

Then EU would have even less power.

So Brexit would have negative impact on distribution of world power.
That is why Obama wants you to remain.

Donald Trump thinks of pushing TTIP into Britain and EU.
Easier when they are divided.

United we stand. Divided we fall.
You think about Britain.
I think our work and Britain as a part of it. I am British by marriage...my children by birth.


----------



## Lilylass

cheekyscrip said:


> They actually stop them quite a lot.
> Imagine Putin on the loose...
> Or Britain having more and more ties with Putin...or China...
> 
> Think environment and human rights...
> Tibet
> Lithuania, Ukraine and so on...
> The world really.
> EU without Great Britain loses lots of power to put in sanctions, restrictions etc...
> 
> Britain would be forced to let China and Russia in more as partners...
> 
> Then EU would have even less power.
> 
> So Brexit would have negative impact on distribution of world power.
> That is why Obama wants you to remain.
> 
> Donald Trump thinks of pushing TTIP into Britain and EU.
> Easier when they are divided.
> 
> United we stand. Divided we fall.
> You think about Britain.
> I think our work and Britain as a part of it. I am British by marriage...my children by birth.


The EU will carry on if Britain isn't in it - if we did leave that doesn't mean the end to sanctions etc

Being entirely selfish, I think we need to think more about ourselves for a change - The 'powers that be' in the EU should've done more to give us more for our money when they had the chance ...... why should we pay in so much more than we get out? Why should we be one of the very few who do? They only want us for the money we put into it ......


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lilylass said:


> The EU will carry on if Britain isn't in it - if we did leave that doesn't mean the end to sanctions etc
> 
> Being entirely selfish, I think we need to think more about ourselves for a change - The 'powers that be' in the EU should've done more to give us more for our money when they had the chance ...... why should we pay in so much more than we get out? Why should we be one of the very few who do? They only want us for the money we put into it ......


EU is flawed and needs to improve a lot.
Problem with sanctions is: if Putin or China get hold of our market then that defies sanctions by EU?

I listen to Gove and of he is as knowledgeable about Britain as he is about Gibraltar..save us Lord!
Those who were warning about the war ..in 1938, 1939., 1940, were called pessimists and scaremongers too.

The world situation is very unstable and Brexit would be foolish and selfish.
Also self-destructive as there is no way Britain can be self-sufficient country in isolation.

So who our next bffs would be?

Putin? China?
Argentina?
Donald Trump?

Why all experts on economy have bad feeling?
What if pessimists are right?

Jobs lost mean homeless people.
Abandoned animals.
Gibraltar and Falklands in grave danger.
Their people and animals ?

EU is flawed. 
Brexit is not making Britain better. Just getting into worse mess.
Worse for us and Europe. And the planet Earth.
Britain is important among world leaders. But not in isolation.


----------



## MollySmith

cheekyscrip said:


> If in doubt:
> View attachment 272927


Haha!! Love it


----------



## Lilylass

& you can't know that leaving wouldn't be better for the uk

Trying to scaremonger - like a lot of the politicians have been doing - is in no way remotely denting my view we need to give it a try 

Anyway I've voted now .....


----------



## cheekyscrip

I do not scaremonger more than those who were warning Britain in 1938, 1939 and so on...
But it seems son politicians were telling the people not to worry....who accused of pessimism and scaremongering because there would be no war at all..

And actually Donald Tusk is a very bright man.

Not arrogant at all.


----------



## LinznMilly

rona said:


> I feel that I know which way I'm voting but I'm still listening to anything that's not just scaremongering. It's far too important not to keep an open mind


That's what scares me when I talk about the referendum with my dad. He is so Out he's practically locking the door behind him, but he won't listen to any argument for remaining.

I keep swinging from In to Out ànd back again, but if I do vote Out, it won't be because of immigration, the amount we send to Brussels, or choosing Brussels over London for making our laws. I have my own reasons for thinking of voting Out, and I won't share them on here.

I do wonder if those who are definitely voting Out because of immigration and "let's take back our borders" have ever looked an immigrant in the eye and told them to get the hell out of "our" country - especially those immigrants who work. Because I have visited 3 clients who are from different countries, and I couldn't just tell them they don't belong in this country, because I feel I don't have that right.


----------



## cheekyscrip

LinznMilly said:


> That's what scares me when I talk about the referendum with my dad. He is so Out he's practically locking the door behind him, but he won't listen to any argument for remaining.
> 
> I keep swinging from In to Out ànd back again, but if I do vote Out, it won't be because of immigration, the amount we send to Brussels, or choosing Brussels over London for making our laws. I have my own reasons for thinking of voting Out, and I won't share them on here.
> 
> I do wonder if those who are definitely got In Out because of immigration and "let's take back our borders" have ever looked an immigrant in the eye and told them to get the hell out of "our" country - especially those immigrants who work. Because I have visited 3 clients who are from different countries, and I couldn't just tell them they don't belong in this country, because I feel I don't have that right.


Imagine how it affects any mix couple . People marry for love.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> The thing is, the older generation are the only ones that know what it can be like outside the EU. The younger generation could be voting through fear of the unknown.
> 
> Just look at what's happened to this country since 1973...........................


Caroline Lucas has done an excellent article on brexit & the young.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-young-p...ons-let-britain-sleepwalk-into-brexit-1548191

*
EU: Young people must not sit by as older generations let Britain sleepwalk into Brexit*

As the debate on Britain's membership of the EU begins to dominate our front pages and TV screens, there are a number of voices conspicuous in this vital conversation only by their absence. Women, for a start. BME people. And of course, young people.

This vote is momentous for all of us - for our rights at work, our environment, our security. But it is deeply concerning that so far the debate has failed to engage those who have never in their lifetime had a say on the European question, and yet whose entire future will be affected by this vote.

For many younger people, there is simply no question when it comes to Europe. They have grown up in the era of peace and stability inaugurated by the creation of the EU; been protected from discrimination and unfair treatment by EU laws; studied and worked with friends and colleagues who have come to the UK from abroad. For some, being European is an instinctive part of their identity. For others, remaining in is simply common sense.

*We must consider too the thousands of EU nationals who have come to live and study in Britain, who will be denied a vote on the 23rd June - and yet face an uncertain future.*

Of course, there are clear material benefits for young people and students of being in the EU. To date, over 200,000 UK students have worked or studied abroad using the Erasmus programme; these opportunities halve graduates' chance of experiencing long-term unemployment and allow British universities to attract the brightest and best of European talent. The billions of pounds of funding pumped into our higher education institutions not only allow us to conduct groundbreaking research, but mean that far more students are able to go on to study at post-graduate level.

& so on ...



rona said:


> I don't want to turn back time and we were very poor but happy. No one is happy anymore


Perhaps no one is happy because of this government and its dreadful austerity policies? Its not the fault of the EU (or migrants) our NHS is in its death throes. And neither is it down to EU millions are suffering because of cuts to benefits & public services (did you know, the EU even offered money for foodbanks? - the tories rejected the offer!








}

And our environment isn't under threat because of the EU. This is all due to ideological tory policies.



MollySmith said:


> And here's Patrick Stewart on what happened before 1970s and why that matters too.
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...war-europe-unite-reject-isolationism-leave-eu


Great article. Once out of the EU protection for workers, food standards protection, pollution control etc will all go.

I loved the video on there lol



MollySmith said:


> I'll confess I don't yet know the way I will vote. I sort of think I do but I'm really struggling to cut out the dick waving egos of the politicians!


I've been looking at the opinions of the NGOs, environmentalists, the Trade Unions, the medical professionals, independent economistes & well respected individuals, Molly.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> If in doubt:
> View attachment 272927


To be fair, I only trust 3 of the 5 on the bottom row  (non on the top row though!) lol


----------



## noushka05

Rupert explains the reason billionaires who own much of our media want out. - Because it benefits THEM


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am definitely in the Out camp. Nothing is changing my mind


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Caroline Lucas has done an excellent article on brexit & the young.
> http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-young-p...ons-let-britain-sleepwalk-into-brexit-1548191
> 
> *
> EU: Young people must not sit by as older generations let Britain sleepwalk into Brexit*
> 
> As the debate on Britain's membership of the EU begins to dominate our front pages and TV screens, there are a number of voices conspicuous in this vital conversation only by their absence. Women, for a start. BME people. And of course, young people.
> 
> This vote is momentous for all of us - for our rights at work, our environment, our security. But it is deeply concerning that so far the debate has failed to engage those who have never in their lifetime had a say on the European question, and yet whose entire future will be affected by this vote.
> 
> For many younger people, there is simply no question when it comes to Europe. They have grown up in the era of peace and stability inaugurated by the creation of the EU; been protected from discrimination and unfair treatment by EU laws; studied and worked with friends and colleagues who have come to the UK from abroad. For some, being European is an instinctive part of their identity. For others, remaining in is simply common sense.
> 
> *We must consider too the thousands of EU nationals who have come to live and study in Britain, who will be denied a vote on the 23rd June - and yet face an uncertain future.*
> 
> Of course, there are clear material benefits for young people and students of being in the EU. To date, over 200,000 UK students have worked or studied abroad using the Erasmus programme; these opportunities halve graduates' chance of experiencing long-term unemployment and allow British universities to attract the brightest and best of European talent. The billions of pounds of funding pumped into our higher education institutions not only allow us to conduct groundbreaking research, but mean that far more students are able to go on to study at post-graduate level.
> 
> & so on ...
> 
> Perhaps no one is happy because of this government and its dreadful austerity policies? Its not the fault of the EU (or migrants) our NHS is in its death throes. And neither is it down to EU millions are suffering because of cuts to benefits & public services (did you know, the EU even offered money for foodbanks? - the tories rejected the offer!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> }
> 
> And our environment isn't under threat because of the EU. This is all due to ideological tory policies.
> 
> Great article. Once out of the EU protection for workers, food standards protection, pollution control etc will all go.
> 
> I loved the video on there lol
> 
> I've been looking at the opinions of the NGOs, environmentalists, the Trade Unions, the medical professionals, independent economistes & well respected individuals, Molly.


Same for me...just different ones! (possibly we might coincide on one!)...but as to most issues I agree...
Imagine the environment, human rights , animal welfare when world is lead by China or Russia instead of EU and USA however bad they might seem!

It is an illusion that after Brexit England would have charitable bankers, no cronies' elite in power, immigrants sent him and not coming back...
Pound would fall. Jobs would be lost.
Power of UK would shrink.
Falklands and Gibraltar lost.

Johnson and Farage are selling nostalgia postcard.Not reality.


----------



## Bisbow

I shall be so pleased when voting day has come and gone.
I am heartily sick of all the lies, scaremongering etc from both sides.
One "expert "says one thing, another "expert" says the exact opposite.
No one knows for sure what will happen whatever way the vote goes, it's all speculation.
Only time will tell


----------



## Honeys mum

Bisbow said:


> No one knows for sure what will happen whatever way the vote goes, it's all speculation.
> Only time will tell


Couldn't agree more Bisbow,









Saw this on a friends website, I do think it just about sums it up.

it up.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Have you missed my point too?
> 
> The 1973 was only in reference to when we joined the EU, not as a point in time held up as something better. Though I hate how the EU interferes in every day life.
> The thing about age was to highlight that youngsters have no possible idea of how it can/could be not how it will be, and therefore must hold more fear, whereas the oldies hold less fear having lived outside the institution.
> The only usefulness to the vote is the decades of experience and knowledge


I've asked this before, but how has the EU interfered in everyday life?

On the 1973 issue, I was a teenager and I was as happy as most teenagers ever are. I dare say life wasn't perfect, and joining the 'EU' wasn't enough to stop inflation topping 20% and a recession hitting us for 2 years, but things were okay.

I think teenagers now will be pretty much like I was then. Some things aren't perfect, some things are bad, some things are good. But it's okay, and they're as happy as teenagers ever are. Why would they want to change?

I don't think it's fear of being outside the EU, there's just no particular reason for being outside the EU. They're not interested in 'taking back control' because they're happy with the control we've got.

They live in a multicultural society and they're happy with it; why would they feel the need to try to create a mono-cultural society? Most of them will have friends all round the world; why would they feel the need for isolation?

What's so attractive about the alternative to what they've already got?


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Couldn't agree more Bisbow,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saw this on a friends website, I do think it just about sums it up.


"Everything _else_ is a maybe"? Let's see ...

'Surrender FOR ALL TIME your right to govern yourselves?'

The UK Parliament is still sovereign. If it wants to it can repeal the 1973 Act and, lo and behold, we're out of the EU. Any time it wants it can call another referendum. Surrender FOR ALL TIME? I don't think so.

And 'right to govern yourselves'? We have agreed to abide by the rules of the single market and to adopt the same regulations as other EU member nations in some other areas. The same as we have done in all the international institutions of which we are members, like the IMF, or NATO. Or the WTO, whose rules we might well follow rather than those of the EU if we leave. And in most areas we have full governance.

"Surrender your CHILDRENS BIRTHRIGHT"? Apart from the dodgy grammar - they really should learn English, these people - what,exactly, is our 'children's birthright'?

"Surrender any control over our communal life, finances, land, resources and borders'? What, all of it? We will have no control over our resources or finances? None? What utter nonsense.

"Be forever ruled by unelected bureaucrats following their own private agenda"?
'Forever'? See above and Parliament's sovereignty
'Ruled by unelected bureaucrats'? whose legislative proposals have to be passed by elections in the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers, whose members are elected by the people? 
'Private agenda'? which is set by the European Parliament in the directives which the Commission has to follow, and whose power to do so is ceded by that Parliament, the same way as the UK Parliament cedes power to the Bank of England to set our interest rates and money supply?

And they call these facts?

Vote Out by all means, but do so on real facts, not scaremongering nonsense.


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> Vote Out by all means, but do so on real facts, not scaremongering nonsense.


Thankyou for your reply Arnie, I did not write that. I just think it sums up that every thing that either side say is a maybe, or whatever you care to call it.

No one knows the true facts of how it will be either way. It's all just speculation.
I can asure you that my vote out will not be based on anything any one has said. I don't need anyone telling me which way to vote. I made that decision all by myself.


----------



## Bisbow

Honeys mum said:


> I don't need anyone telling me which way to vote. I made that decision all by myself.


Me neither, I made my mind up ages ago and no one can alter my mind, never mind all the spin in the world


----------



## Happy Paws2

Listening to Michael Gove last night on Sky has made my mind up that voting IN is still the right choice.

I still haven't heard one good reason to vote leave.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Couldn't agree more Bisbow,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saw this on a friends website, I do think it just about sums it up.
> 
> it up.


Exactly. Down to dodgy English and pack of lies.

Dangerous, populist propaganda with nothing to back it up.

Worth Farage and Trump.


----------



## MollySmith

Honeys mum said:


> Couldn't agree more Bisbow,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saw this on a friends website, I do think it just about sums it up.it up.


This entire thread is a gallery of poorly designed, threatening memes from each side. And this is about the most tragic of them all with it's war talk - surrender FFS? - and absolutely not one bit of evidence to support these claims.

It's this sort of bullcrap that makes me want to stay. It's the kind of rubbish that Farage speaks. I'm all for listening to both sides if some genius can show me evidence and facts but I fail to see any at the moment and that's largely down to the media hyping it all, plus threads like this, would be designers and Facebook et all sharing stuff like this.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Thankyou for your reply Arnie, I did not write that. I just think it sums up that every thing that either side say is a maybe, or whatever you care to call it.
> 
> No one knows the true facts of how it will be either way. It's all just speculation.
> I can asure you that my fault out will not be based on anything any one has said. I don't need anyone telling me which way to vote. I made that decision all by myself.


I wouldn't imply for a moment that the false 'facts' in what you posted would influence you; but I thought I should challenge them in case they influenced anybody less perspicacious.


----------



## noushka05

This by Professor Brian Cox tickled me lol









*Brian Cox* ‏@ProfBrianCox 
Happy that Boris et al will match the billion in EU science funding, although it looks like we'd be in a long queue


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> I wouldn't imply for a moment that the false 'facts' in what you posted would influence you; but I thought I should challenge them in case they influenced anybody less perspicacious.


Like I already said Arnie83, I didn't write that. I just think that the last sentance which quotes

Every thing else is a Maybe

Really does sum it up, because no matter what either side come up with, is only speculation.Only time will tell what will happen wether were in or out.


----------



## MollySmith

I've been looking for a guide. I know that during the General Election I was able to locate websites that scored ones principles and told you which manifestos best suited you, and published each manifesto so you could check too. I liked that because I do not believe in a party for life or voting the way my parents did. Life and the world moves on.

But I simply can't find one here, so if anyone has something can you please post?

So far I have this and I'm now decided on what way I am voting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32793642


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## Goblin

Another one to watch if you are interested in educating yourself before you vote.


----------



## Honeys mum

EU referendum debates: when and where to watch them | Politics | The Guardian

A list of debates for BOTH sides of the referendum from now until June 23rd. For anyone who is interested.


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Exactly. *Down to dodgy English and pack of lies.*
> 
> Dangerous, populist propaganda with nothing to back it up.
> 
> Worth Farage and Trump.


Do you know what the difference is between Flying Pigs and Politicians Scrippy?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
The letter F.


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Dangerous, populist propaganda with nothing to back it up.


I don't recall seeing any evidence to back up what the remain side have quoted, but maybe I have missed it.!! Because like I have said before, it's all speculation.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## Arnie83

As a passing thought, as Vote Leave keep telling me to "Take Back Control".

My constituency always returns a Tory MP. At the height of Blairism, the Tory still walked it. I have absolutely zero control over what happens in government in the UK.

In Europe, my vote for the MEP is proportional. It may not count for very much among all the other millions, but it counts equally as much as every one of those other millions. And those elected MEPs vote on all legislation proposed in the EU.

So where have I, personally, got more control?
Which one, I wonder, is more democratic?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> I don't recall seeing any evidence to back up what the remain side have quoted, but maybe I have missed it.!! Because like I have said before, it's all speculation.


Pound is falling already and investors pulling out...
Spain already declared they would move on Gibraltar.
Merkel made herself clear.
Obama made himself clear.
Trump made himself clear too.
Can all experts on economy be wrong?
Can all academics be wrong?

Maybe where I sit it is clear as we have busy finance sector and lots of international business.
Ask whoever you want: Indians. Chinese, American and all are suer Brexit would do British people no favours.
You will.gave control over Britain?
No way!

British greedy bankers and greedy cronies or power hungry would do whatever they want and what benefit them.
There will nothing to stop them. No environment regulation, worker rights, anything ...

What they want to sell, to build over, to let in..
HoneyMum...sorry I do not trust Johnson one bit. Very clever. Very dangerous man.
Brexit will nit benefit working class people. Their promises are just illusion. Just selling you stuff.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Can all experts on economy be wrong?


Erm http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/

Not all are for staying.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Erm http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/
> 
> Not all are for staying.


They're a bit like Scientists Against Climate Change; they both get way more publicity than their numbers deserve.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> They're a bit like Scientists Against Climate Change; they both get way more publicity than their numbers deserve.


I don't really care. I was pointing out that saying ALL experts on the economy want to stay isn't strictly true.


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Pound is falling already and investors pulling out...
> Spain already declared they would move on Gibraltar.
> Merkel made herself clear.
> Obama made himself clear.
> Trump made himself clear too.
> Can all experts on economy be wrong?
> Can all academics be wrong?


Thankyou for pointing that out cheekyscrip, but in my book that is by no means evidence, just people stating what they think



cheekyscrip said:


> sorry I do not trust Johnson one bit. Very clever. Very dangerous man.


As a matter of fact cheepyscrip, I didn't say any where that I trusted any off them, whatever side they are on. As I have said before, I make up my own mind thankyou, and am not influenced by any of them. Although some are better than others, aren't they much of a muchness.?



cheekyscrip said:


> Exactly. Down to dodgy English and a pack of lies.


Please forgive me, as I don't want to appear rude, but maybe you could read what you posted to me at 11-46 A.M. this morning


----------



## diefenbaker

Vote Brexit and put the Great back in Britain. Reinvade India, revert Australia to a penal colony, revoke US Independence and win Euro 2016. Three Lions !!!!


----------



## Honeys mum

diefenbaker said:


> Vote Brexit and put the Great back in Britain.


Couldn't agree with you more diefenbaker.


----------



## rona

I find it odd, insulting and rather annoying that people who are voting in seem to think they know why others are voting out.
Hardly anything put forward by the in crowd has a thing to do with my reasons for leaning towards out


----------



## diefenbaker

Honeys mum said:


> Couldn't agree with you more diefenbaker.


Can you give an example of what this actually means ? I'm struggling.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I find it odd, insulting and rather annoying that people who are voting in seem to think they know why others are voting out.
> Hardly anything put forward by the in crowd has a thing to do with my reasons for leaning towards out


So what are your reasons?


----------



## Honeys mum

diefenbaker said:


> Can you give an example of what this actually means ? I'm struggling.


Sorry, I mean that you were asuming that by voting out would put the Great back in Britain.Which I happen to think we have lost.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> So what are your reasons?


I'm sorry but I'm not willing to put those on an open forum. They are my own personal views from my own personal experiences and of no importance to anyone else.


----------



## Vanessa131

Arnie83 said:


> While in charge of education, Gove said that he wanted the performance of every school to be above average.
> 
> Maths not really his strong suit!


He also claimed that the was the first person to bring mathematics to primary school...

Then again at a recent head meeting Morgan said her action plan to fix the teacher shortage is to employ 17 year old school leavers to teach classes...


----------



## diefenbaker

Honeys mum said:


> Sorry, I mean that you were asuming that by voting out would put the Great back in Britain.Which I happen to think we have lost.


Well this is the whole point. It's a lovely sound-bite but what does it actually mean ? What did/does make Britain Great and how would a Brexit/nonBrexit influence that ?


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> *Pound is falling already and investors pulling out...
> Spain already declared they would move on Gibraltar.*
> 
> *Can all experts on economy be wrong?*


The pound is falling due to uncertainty. The finance markets are very sensitive and anything like this will likely result in currency falling.

It is very very highly unlikely that Spain will invade Gibraltar. They would be cutting off there nose, to spite there face. The EU and most of the civilised world would react very badly to such a move. There economy is also not really in the right place ether for them to suffer from trade deals and isolation that would result from such a colonial type move.

And no matter what you think of mainland UK, they wouldn't sit on the sidelines and watch Spanish troops marching through the streets.

As for the all the experts on economy.... are these the same experts who saw the last Economic crash coming as well?...


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I'm sorry but I'm not willing to put those on an open forum. They are my own personal views from my own personal experiences and of no importance to anyone else.


Fair enough. But if the Remain side haven't addressed the issues that you won't mention, that probably shouldn't make you feel insulted and annoyed.


----------



## Honeys mum

diefenbaker said:


> Well this is the whole point. It's a lovely sound-bite but what does it actually mean ? What did/does make Britain Great and how would a Brexit/nonBrexit influence that ?


Well you have lost me here diefenbaker, why would you say then vote Brexit and put the great back in Britain, all I was doing was agreeing with you.
I would imangine that could mean various things to many people. All I am willing to say is that i think Britain is no longer the great country it was. I too like Rona am not prepared to put my reasons on a public forum why I am voting out.


----------



## cheekyscrip

There is a third option now.
Welsh came up with this:







@MoggyBaby , please update the polls.


----------



## cheekyscrip

@Honeymum

My English is dodgy by default..lol.
Would not ever dream about publishing anything without giving it to proofreading...

I lived and worked in many countries. Now live in quite cosmopolitan place with many people quite versed in affairs of our world.

Maybe things have different perspective when looked on from distance?

I have some idea who would control Britain after Brexit...

Money. EU at least has some control over those big concerns, consortia and so on...
How clean that money is...

Where it comes from and where it goes...

Plus environment protection etc...you cannot just build whatever wherever.
Or ...fracking...just an example.

When I hear " We will control Britain"...I ask who is "we"?
Follow the money.....


----------



## MollySmith

I thought it worth mentioning that there was a programme on BBC Parliament about the 1975 debate. It's really worth watching, esp for those of us who are too young to remember the reason why we went into the EU. It's not as rosy in the early 70s as some might have us believe 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0074zkj/the-1975-referendum-result


----------



## MollySmith

Does anyone else feel utterly ill-equipped to make what is really the biggest decision of our generation - way bigger than a general election.


----------



## Arnie83

MollySmith said:


> Does anyone else feel utterly ill-equipped to make what is really the biggest decision of our generation - way bigger than a general election.


Which is why we should never be having this referendum. We vote in MPs to do the research and make the big decisions on our behalf, rather than leaving it to people (not you!) who will choose one thing that they like or don't and vote accordingly, whether that thing is true or not.


----------



## MollySmith

Arnie83 said:


> Which is why we should never be having this referendum. We vote in MPs to do the research and make the big decisions on our behalf, rather than leaving it to people (not you!) who will choose one thing that they like or don't and vote accordingly, whether that thing is true or not.


Totally agree, well put 

I think that there are too many influenced by untruths mostly driven by the media. I'm trying very hard to be balanced but I can't help think of 'out' as closet racism and it's doubtless more than this but it's hard to wade through the hyperbole - the only actual research surely is with the Government who need to make this decision. By farming out votes to Joe Public it's almost undermining the concept of a General Election.


----------



## Goblin

Also saw this recently:



> Did you know... according to research by Loughborough University, the top 10 individuals in the media in this referendum debate are all old, white, male politicians? And most of them are Conservatives. We know the opinions of these politicians already and their discourse is painfully narrow, sound-bitey and dubious. They are not champions of the people - they are just experts in spin, clogging up the real debate by saying whatever is advantageous to advance or protect their careers. Get them out of the way and let's, why we still have time, have a breather from them and get wider society talking to itself about these important issues


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## MollySmith

stockwellcat said:


> No I don't feel this way.
> 
> I am voting out purely because of what I previously said. I don't like the way the EU and this country is being run so that is why I am voting out/leave. This comment (I made) speaks for itself in my eyes and is a good enough reason to vote out/leave.
> 
> We will survive by ourselves as a country, we did it before and we can do it again. I ignore what rubbish Cameron is spouting and it is rubbish (because no one categorically knows and can say for sure what it is going to be like if we stay or leave the EU) the man doesn't know how to tell the truth and is a good waffler. Regarding the out/leave campaigners I like what they say but I am voting not because of what they say but what I have come to the conclusion of. I decided to vote out/leave before the referendum was announced.
> 
> The world won't fall to bits if Britain does leave the EU, www3 won't be the cause of us leaving Europe - it will happen even if we stay in Europe if it is going to happen and regarding the scaremongering over Britain's finances if we leave the EU - they are in a complete mess with us remaining in the EU and they will only get worse with us staying in the EU look at the state of our country. Regarding the migrant crisis, this was forced upon us by the EU or should I say the German chancellor and the only way we can stop the endless flow of migrants coming to the UK is to leave and stop migrants entering the UK. It is the only way. Cameron is not and will not tell us the truth about the amount of migrants being let in the UK and there is more than you think or are being told.
> 
> Cameron and his band of merry men (The Government) either way stay or leave needs to resign as they are a laughing stock and no longer fit for purpose. Cameron split his own party in two over this Referendum, and his party is being accused of election fraud (General Election Last year) on top of all this it seems that Osborne does not know simple mathematics as he made a complete mess of the last budget and over spent on last years budget leaving a black hole in the UK's finances.
> 
> Right I am finished now.
> 
> Please feel free to comment, like my comment, rip what I said to bits or whatever but I just wanted to vent this.
> 
> Vote leave and celebrate UK Independence Day on the 24th June.


No need to rip you apart. You're clearly certain of your views but I have an urge to call you Nigel 

I can't say this has encouraged me to vote out.


----------



## MollySmith

This...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## Goblin

I agree MollySmith. That is what the politicians are saying. What are the experts rather than the spin doctors saying?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron
http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v12/n6/full/nphys3797.html
https://socsocmed.org.uk/2016/05/24/brexit-a-risk-to-our-nations-health/

I wonder why Gove is so determined for people not to listen to experts. What will the idea of listen to politician spin, ignore the experts lead to I wonder.

Can anyone link a "body" of experts where the majority actually say the UK will be better off?

Off track slightly.. Personally I still like http://newsthump.com/2016/05/31/vot...te-pits-stephen-hawking-against-wetherspoons/ but then I admit, I'm biased.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> The pound is falling due to uncertainty. The finance markets are very sensitive and anything like this will likely result in currency falling.
> 
> It is very very highly unlikely that Spain will invade Gibraltar. They would be cutting off there nose, to spite there face. The EU and most of the civilised world would react very badly to such a move. There economy is also not really in the right place ether for them to suffer from trade deals and isolation that would result from such a colonial type move.
> 
> And no matter what you think of mainland UK, they wouldn't sit on the sidelines and watch Spanish troops marching through the streets.
> 
> As for the all the experts on economy.... are these the same experts who saw the last Economic crash coming as well?...


Please, do come here, read what Margallo says openly, then you will see what is likely what is not.
Shots have been fired already.
Our air space and territorial water are invaded all the time.
With Britain doing nothing . We can only complain to EU.
Ask distinguished military gen James Dutton, who resigned his post as governor of Gibraltar...why he did so!
He was angry and ashamed.
Spain planned taking over Gibraltar in 80 ties...just Falklands made them give it up. Documents published.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Please, do come here, read what Margallo says openly, then you will see what is likely what is not.
> Shots have been fired already.
> Our air space and territorial water are invaded all the time.
> With Britain doing nothing . We can only complain to EU.
> Ask distinguished military gen James Dutton, who resigned his post as governor of Gibraltar...why he did so!
> He was angry and ashamed.
> Spain planned taking over Gibraltar in 80 ties...just Falklands made them give it up. Documents published.


Margallo is doing nothing more than the usual sabre rattling that they have done in the past (while we have been in EU I might add).

Spain is not likely to invade Gibralter and by doing so effectively declare war on the UK, a fellow member of NATO.

The world has changed since the Falklands, the U.K. is preserving the Gibralter people's right for self determination and I don't think there is an international court in the world that can't see that.


----------



## westie~ma

My postal voting paper arrived this weekend, I'm still undecided but leaning to out.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Margallo is doing nothing more than the usual sabre rattling that they have done in the past (while we have been in EU I might add).
> 
> Spain is not likely to invade Gibralter and by doing so effectively declare war on the UK, a fellow member of NATO.
> 
> The world has changed since the Falklands, the U.K. is preserving the Gibralter people's right for self determination and I don't think there is an international court in the world that can't see that.


It is enough to practically block the frontier. Just as they do whenever they feel.like it


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> It is enough to practically block the frontier. Just as they do whenever they feel.like it


So what difference will either leaving or staying in the EU make then?


----------



## MiffyMoo

rona said:


> I find it odd, insulting and rather annoying that people who are voting in seem to think they know why others are voting out.
> Hardly anything put forward by the in crowd has a thing to do with my reasons for leaning towards out


You know what, you're right. A friend of mine told me that I'm only voting out because another friend of ours told me to. I was bloody furious!


----------



## MiffyMoo

stuaz said:


> The pound is falling due to uncertainty. The finance markets are very sensitive and anything like this will likely result in currency falling.
> 
> It is very very highly unlikely that Spain will invade Gibraltar. They would be cutting off there nose, to spite there face. The EU and most of the civilised world would react very badly to such a move. There economy is also not really in the right place ether for them to suffer from trade deals and isolation that would result from such a colonial type move.
> 
> And no matter what you think of mainland UK, they wouldn't sit on the sidelines and watch Spanish troops marching through the streets.
> 
> As for the all the experts on economy.... are these the same experts who saw the last Economic crash coming as well?...


A friend of mine is an economist, who did foresee the 2008 crash coming, and he is very firmly on the exit side


----------



## MiffyMoo

cheekyscrip said:


> @Honeymum
> 
> My English is dodgy by default..lol.
> Would not ever dream about publishing anything without giving it to proofreading...
> 
> I lived and worked in many countries. Now live in quite cosmopolitan place with many people quite versed in affairs of our world.
> 
> Maybe things have different perspective when looked on from distance?
> 
> I have some idea who would control Britain after Brexit...
> 
> Money. EU at least has some control over those big concerns, consortia and so on...
> How clean that money is...
> 
> Where it comes from and where it goes...
> 
> Plus environment protection etc...you cannot just build whatever wherever.
> Or ...fracking...just an example.
> 
> When I hear " We will control Britain"...I ask who is "we"?
> Follow the money.....


But we already have fracking in the UK


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> Oh no don't compare me to Mr F.
> 
> Don't worry I am not insulted it takes more than that to insult me.
> 
> Don't vote then if you can't make your mind up no one is forcing you.
> 
> For those that are using their right to vote don't forget to take a black pen to the polling booth, don't use a pencil, then it can't be rigged.


Nowt wrong with Nige. He's the only decent, honest UK politician I can think of off the top of my head.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## noushka05

Satori said:


> Nowt wrong with Nige. He's the only decent, honest UK politician I can think of off the top of my head.


Your sense of humour kills me sometimes:Hilarious


----------



## Milliepoochie

I will be voting remain.

I believe in these uncertain times a retreat is not the answer and is especially not the answer to showing your frustration at the current Conservative government...

I feel very uncomfortable with the Brexit advocates using the immigration argument continuously and cannot help but feel immigrants are being made the scapegoats for our country's ills. 

The fact the likes of Trump and Putin advocate Brexit doesn't fill me with confidence. 

The EU doesn't have all the right answers and has it issues of course but I feel remain is the lesser of two evils. 

The future generations will have a more secure future with more opportunities as part of the EU and it was 1974 or 1975 I believe we last had a say in this. We are making this decision not for ourselves but for our children and their children.


----------



## CRL

Milliepoochie said:


> I will be voting remain.
> 
> I believe in these uncertain times a retreat is not the answer and is especially not the answer to showing your frustration at the current Conservative government...
> 
> I feel very uncomfortable with the Brexit advocates using the immigration argument continuously and cannot help but feel immigrants are being made the scapegoats for our country's ills.
> 
> The fact the likes of Trump and Putin advocate Brexit doesn't fill me with confidence.
> 
> The EU doesn't have all the right answers and has it issues of course but I feel remain is the lesser of two evils.
> 
> The future generations will have a more secure future with more opportunities as part of the EU and it was 1974 or 1975 I believe we last had a say in this. We are making this decision not for ourselves but for our children and their children.


couldnt agree more, im also voting to remain.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> So what difference will either leaving or staying in the EU make then?


That when they blocked the frontier, or when they wanted to introduce fees to cross the frontier we complained to EU court that ruled it illegal as we have rights to free movement. Also free of charge. 
So that is why Rajoy promised to block the frontier as soon as Britain is out.
We also have problem with gutter carry refuse right next to our beach which unusable now and the refinery built by Franco right in front if us which is long outdated and does not comply with any norms of emission.

People in area affected by fracking can take it to EU court if lose against own government.
Similar actions were taken in other countries to stop destroying nature reserves and environmentalists won against their ministers!!!

I understand why people are fed up and want change.

But some rhetoric remind me of Hitler campaign..he just used anger and resentment of good, hard working people.
I am afraid Trump is doing the same.

Immigrants are the new Jews if you read some of the propaganda...

Who would rule after Brexit? People like Murdoch or Green? Farage?

Gove that is full of resentment because his father lost his business?
Brexit will make Britain weaker and EU weaker.
I can clearly see what is to be lost.
But no one can say really what is to be gained?
Just" trust me..it will be fine"...
For those who get the reins and their sponsors...
Do you realise how much of very dodgy money is already invested in empty flats in new luxury buildings in London?
EU has some check on persona non grata...but I see many more coming...
If you ever follow the money the people who back Putin ( see who is his daughter married to) already have their feet under the table...
And are close pals of few good lords, even some royal...

Money would rule Britain...good question..whose money?
Where from? What that money would buy?

I speak Russian and know few well off Russian businessmen who own huge chunk of most expensive apartments in Gibraltar.
They see Brexit as wonderful for Putin and Russian Abramowich type guys to just buy that little country...


----------



## MiffyMoo

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit will make Britain weaker and EU weaker.


How can you possibly know that?


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> But we already have fracking in the UK


Where?



stockwellcat said:


> Sorry didn't mean anything I said.* He works hard in Europe and in the UK*. Isn't he an MEP so knows what is going on inside Europe so yes we should listen to him.


Yeah he's positively grafting.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MiffyMoo said:


> How can you possibly know that?


Logic. EU will lose one of the strongest members. 70 mln strong. Essential as cradle of democracy industrial revolution and so on....
With very important voice.
Listened to more than you think. Role model for many new EU members.

Weaker...exposed to Putin, to Chinese overcapacity in production, to TTIP...while cut off the EU markets.
Pound will fall.
Unemployment will rise. As many EU oriented businesses will shut.

That is why it would be weaker.
More dodgy money backing more dodgy politicians.

I can read. I lived and worked in few countries. Russia included. USA too.
UK.

I try to see the big picture and Britain in it.
If pound falls British in power would be happy to accept any money ? Yes?
At what price? Who will our new bffs?

How do I know we should not trust advice by Putin or Trump?

Lets say they do not make the world better or safer place?

It was not EU that got us into Iraq War. 
EU were not making money on it. But our soldiers died.

Guess who made money on Iraq War...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## rona

Safer in eh?


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Where?


http://frack-off.org.uk/locations/


----------



## MilleD

MiffyMoo said:


> http://frack-off.org.uk/locations/


Most of those are still in planning or investigative stages, but yeah it's gonna happen and being in the EU hasn't prevented it.


----------



## scatchy

Am I the only one who is getting tired of seeing photos comparing one person with another-e.g. look Hugh Fearnely- Whitingstall good- Nigel Farage bad -which way are you going to vote? with my own mind actually after researching the facts, listening to debates, watching videos etc certainly not by such banal and simplistic propoganda. It amazes me how many people seem to be swayed by whether they like Cameron, or Farage or Johnson as if we were voting for them . We are not, we are deciding if we wish to remain in EU - politicians come and go and in a democracy can be voted out. We should look at the longer term - the Eu is anti-democratic. The power rests with a small number of unelected beaurocrats who initiate the laws- MEPs can only debate what is put to them. Personally I think the beaurocrats already have far too much power and are seeking more all the time. They have their own agenda they are working towards and are not interested in the opinion of the general population. It will take a lot to convince me we are safe in the hands of people we cannot remove from power- and how many of us even know who these people are and what their characters are like. I think knowing that is more useful than slating people representing the opposite campaign view.


----------



## MollySmith

"My mailbag's been drowning with questions and concerns. The biggest being:_ "Please just tell us the facts, what'll happen if we leave?" _I'm sorry, but the most important thing to understand is: there are no facts about what happens next.

*Anyone who tells you they KNOW what'll happen if we leave the EU is a liar. Predicting exact numbers for economic, immigration or house price change is nonsense. What's proposed is unprecedented. All the studies, models and hypotheses are based on assumptions - that's guesstimate and hope.*

So accept the need to wrestle with uncertainty. The EU referendum is far from a black and white issue; there are more shades of grey than E L James's bookshelf."

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/

Permission to call 90% of posts here lies?


----------



## LinznMilly

Right. My mind is made up.

I've looked at all the arguments, peeked behind the politicians and both camps' scaremongering. I think (I hope) I've looked at the bigger picture. I think I have a few facts and my personal opinion, that we're Damned either way, hasn't changed.

To me, it's a question of which side is the rock and which is the hard place.

I voted for the Greens in the election. I'll follow them now. I'm in.


----------



## MoggyBaby

scatchy said:


> Am I the only one who is getting tired of seeing photos comparing one person with another-e.g. look Hugh Fearnely- Whitingstall good- Nigel Farage bad -which way are you going to vote? with my own mind actually after researching the facts, listening to debates, watching videos etc certainly not by such banal and simplistic propoganda. It amazes me how many people seem to be swayed by whether they like Cameron, or Farage or Johnson as if we were voting for them . We are not, we are deciding if we wish to remain in EU - politicians come and go and in a democracy can be voted out. We should look at the longer term - the Eu is anti-democratic. The power rests with a small number of unelected beaurocrats who initiate the laws- MEPs can only debate what is put to them. Personally I think the beaurocrats already have far too much power and are seeking more all the time. They have their own agenda they are working towards and are not interested in the opinion of the general population. It will take a lot to convince me we are safe in the hands of people we cannot remove from power- and how many of us even know who these people are and what their characters are like. I think knowing that is more useful than slating people representing the opposite campaign view.


If we still had the rep system, you would have just received a great big green blobby!! Very well said! I am also sick of seeing meme's all over the shop and stupid people trying to score points. There is no right side or wrong side in this debate because BOTH are unknown entities. If we stay in Europe the rules will continue to change and we have no way of knowing if they WILL benefit us or not. If we come out, we STILL have no way of knowing if we will benefit or not.

People have to look at what is best for them, their families and their beliefs and vote accordingly. NOT because they have been guilt-tripped into a choice they are not comfortable with because some muppet has scared the bejesus out of them with their rhetoric & scaremongering.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> A friend of mine is an economist, who did foresee the 2008 crash coming, and he is very firmly on the exit side


The 2008 crash was due to neoliberal ideology & brexit will give absolute power to a bunch of ultra right wing neoliberals. Is your friend not concerned about this?



MiffyMoo said:


> http://frack-off.org.uk/locations/


That is where fracking licences have been granted @MiffyMoo. There has been no fracking in the UK for 5 years.



MilleD said:


> Most of those are still in planning or investigative stages, but yeah it's gonna happen and being in the EU hasn't prevented it.


The EU tried. But Britain & Poland vetoed EU-wide fracking controls. Individual member states already have bans. Right wingers on both sides of the debate support fracking & if we leave the EU we are going to be left in the hands of a bunch of climate change denying free marketeers.

If it happens its because the government are pulling out all the stops to enable the industry.



scatchy said:


> Am I the only one who is getting tired of seeing photos comparing one person with another-e.g. look Hugh Fearnely- Whitingstall good- Nigel Farage bad -which way are you going to vote? with my own mind actually after researching the facts, listening to debates, watching videos etc certainly not by such banal and simplistic propoganda. It amazes me how many people seem to be swayed by whether they like Cameron, or Farage or Johnson as if we were voting for them . We are not, we are deciding if we wish to remain in EU - politicians come and go and in a democracy can be voted out. We should look at the longer term - the Eu is anti-democratic. The power rests with a small number of unelected beaurocrats who initiate the laws- MEPs can only debate what is put to them. Personally I think the beaurocrats already have far too much power and are seeking more all the time. They have their own agenda they are working towards and are not interested in the opinion of the general population. It will take a lot to convince me we are safe in the hands of people we cannot remove from power- and how many of us even know who these people are and what their characters are like. I think knowing that is more useful than slating people representing the opposite campaign view.


Although that pic was a bit of fun - it is factual. So its not propaganda. And it amazes me how many people seemed to be swayed by whether they like Cameron, or Farage or Johnson as well  The progressive camp, Green NGOs, the NHA Party etc have swayed me. The EU offers us many benefits. Legislation which protects the air we breath, our seas, wildlife, environment,human rights, workers rights, food standards & so on. Johnson, Gove, Farage & co believe in deregulation & an unfettered free market. The EU is a far from perfect, but being left in the hands of these people terrifies me.



MoggyBaby said:


> If we still had the rep system, you would have just received a great big green blobby!! Very well said! I am also sick of seeing meme's all over the shop and stupid people trying to score points. There is no right side or wrong side in this debate because BOTH are unknown entities. If we stay in Europe the rules will continue to change and we have no way of knowing if they WILL benefit us or not. If we come out, we STILL have no way of knowing if we will benefit or not.
> 
> People have to look at what is best for them, their families and their beliefs and vote accordingly. NOT because they have been guilt-tripped into a choice they are not comfortable with because some muppet has scared the bejesus out of them with their rhetoric & scaremongering.


I'm not stupid MB. (just not very well educated)

I wasn't point scoring, it was just a quick way of posting a few facts - & quite funny I thought

Of course no one can foresee the future, but the key leavers have stated quite clearly they want to cut us loose of EU regulations. This will be catastrophic for the natural world & the whole environment. There will be nothing at all to protect it from exploitation.

I think its obvious the environment is my main priority & NGOs & renowned environmentalists are saying our environment is safer in the EU. The planet is in meltdown, we can't tackle climate change alone & time is very quickly running out. Climate breakdown will affect all life on earth & yet the environmental cost of brexit has been barely mentioned in the msm.

Farage & the brexit tory mps have no love for the natural world, only in expoliting it. They are pro fracking, climate change deniers. That isn't scaremongering, that is a fact. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/european-union-record-on-clean-beaches-and-dirty-air

This is what Stanley Johnson (Boris's environmentalist father) has to say on the matter -










.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> The 2008 crash was due to neoliberal ideology & brexit will give absolute power to a bunch of ultra right wing neoliberals. Is your friend not concerned about this?


No, clearly not, but I suspect he has far better insight than the man on the street. I would also question your claim that the current Government are "ultra right wing neoliberals" - you certainly do like your soundbites.



noushka05 said:


> That is where fracking licences have been granted @MiffyMoo. There has been no fracking in the UK for 5 years.





noushka05 said:


> The EU tried. But Britain & Poland vetoed EU-wide fracking controls. Individual member states already have bans. Right wingers on both sides of the debate support fracking & if we leave the EU we are going to be left in the hands of a bunch of climate change denying free marketeers.
> 
> If it happens its because the government are pulling out all the stops to enable the industry.


So basically it makes absolutely no difference whether we're in or out as to whether licenses or actual fracking goes ahead.

You may also want to rethink who you are solely blaming for this - if it was purely right wing, and Labour were so anti, why they did state, in their election manifesto, that they would support a regulated fracking industry?


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> The progressive camp, Green NGOs, the NHA Party etc have swayed me. The EU offers us many benefits. Legislation which protects the air we breath, our seas, wildlife, environment,human rights, workers rights, food standards


..... the Common Agricultral Policy 

Seriously though, I am shocked that your lot are not campaigning vigorously to get out and have a least a chance to reform the CAP which is both anti-environmental and the most ultra-right wing regressive tax in the history of so-called democracy.


----------



## Arnie83

MollySmith said:


> "My mailbag's been drowning with questions and concerns. The biggest being:_ "Please just tell us the facts, what'll happen if we leave?" _I'm sorry, but the most important thing to understand is: there are no facts about what happens next.
> 
> *Anyone who tells you they KNOW what'll happen if we leave the EU is a liar. Predicting exact numbers for economic, immigration or house price change is nonsense. What's proposed is unprecedented. All the studies, models and hypotheses are based on assumptions - that's guesstimate and hope.*
> 
> So accept the need to wrestle with uncertainty. The EU referendum is far from a black and white issue; there are more shades of grey than E L James's bookshelf."
> 
> http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/
> 
> Permission to call 90% of posts here lies?


Woo-hoo! One of the 10% ! :Joyful


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> ..... the Common Agricultral Policy
> 
> Seriously though, I am shocked that your lot are not campaigning vigorously to get out and have a least a chance to reform the CAP which is both anti-environmental and the most ultra-right wing regressive tax in the history of so-called democracy.


I don't follow that - how can we reform the CAP if we're not In?


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I don't follow that - how can we reform the CAP if we're not In?


Yes you do. You are just picking at semantics. We could implement a different form of agricultural subsidy, this time a genuine one.


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Yes you do. You are just picking at semantics. We could implement a different form of agricultural subsidy, this time a genuine one.


I often wonder where all that money is going?

I know a lot finds it's way into the pockets of those that own the land, not those that work it even tenants

http://www.barbers-rural.co.uk/blog/who-owns-land
"Amid fears that proceeds of foreign crime are being 'laundered' through the UK property market, Prime Minister David Cameron has called for more transparency and has announced proposals for the Land Registry to publish details of land held by foreign investment companies. The Financial Times has estimated that at least £122bn of property in England in Wales is owned by offshore companies and whilst most of this investment will be in commercial and residential property in London and the South East, some will be in agricultural property across the UK."


----------



## MilleD

I noticed something on my cycle home tonight. The only posters and signs I've seen are the 'Vote Leave' ones.

Are there any 'Vote Remain' signs? Why haven't I seen any? I wonder if it's because most of those wanting to leave are more vociferous than those happy with the status quo.

Note I said most, not all


----------



## MoggyBaby

noushka05 said:


> T
> 
> I'm not stupid MB. (just not very well educated)
> 
> I wasn't point scoring, it was just a quick way of posting a few facts - & quite funny I thought


My post was not directed at you Noush - I was talking generally. Facebook especially is full of memes and I know for a fact that some of the folks posting them most definitely are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. There are folks who can post stuff and make you think more on your opinions and there are folks who post stuff that just make you fearful about theirs.


----------



## Honeys mum

MilleD said:


> I noticed something on my cycle home tonight. The only posters and signs I've seen are the 'Vote Leave' ones.


I've never seen a Vote Remain poster, seen plenty of Vote Leave ones.
In fact have one in our window, and two in the car as well.That's vote leave of course.

I have just had this come in the form of an email, don't know how they came by my email address. Which in IMO is disgraceful, I am furious, and will be emailing them to tell them what i think.

Brenda --

Tonight leading Leave spokesperson Nigel Farage will be on ITV, unleashing his irresponsible lies and untruths about the EU.

Here are some of the things Nigel Farage has said over the years:


He described gay people as '****'
He told women if they want to breastfeed, they should do it 'in the corner'
He said foreigners with HIV should not be treated on the NHS - and thinks our health service should be privatised anyway
He told supporters to 'bully people' into voting to leave Europe
*Will you be bullied by Nigel Farage, Brenda? Donate today to take a stand against Farage and UKIP - and stop them dragging us out of Europe.*



Tonight Farage will be on ITV, from 9pm, and we need everyone to get out there on Twitter and Facebook to fight back against his dangerous lies.

Because what he won't mention tonight is that if we leave the EU, it's hardworking British families that will be hit the hardest - with jobs lost, prices rising and our economy hit.

*Brenda - we can't let Farage win. Donate now and let's take the fight to him, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson in this vital referendum. *

Thank you,
Lucy Thomas,
Deputy Director
Stronger IN Campaign


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat said:


> My round up of the EU Referendum.
> 
> Cameron lies so much he doesn't know what the truth is and has got so desperate he accuses everyone else of lying.
> 
> The UK channel has now become a free for all for all the migrants to take the risk of crossing the channel in dinghies (3 more caught today). As a result of being in Europe we aren't allowed to patrol our own territorial waters with armed navy ships and have to welcome the migrants in (called free movement). We don't know who these people are and are now wide open to terrorist attacks.
> 
> I have now banned the news from being broadcasted on my TV as I am sick to the back teeth of hearing Cameron bleeting on every day about rubbish.
> 
> Our country is being invaded and we are just smiling and saying please come in we can't stop you as we are part of the EU. The UK border force have said they don't have the capability to patrol the entire coastline and stop everyone making the crossing from Europe.
> 
> Like what I say, hate what I say but I have had enough.
> 
> Time to leave the EU and secure our country up.


You are aware than in Switzerland, despite not being in the EU, they still have to accept free movement of citizens. That's a fact, not a guess or a lie, conjecture and bollocks. 
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/19/eu-deal-switzerland-immigration-uk-eurosceptics

In order to be part of EU trade, Switzerland still has to pay into the European Union, and they still need to be open to free movement of people. The only way to avoid this is to remove EU trade which will do what for economy, even supermarkets, education? It is not possible to gain multinational free trade agreement on the scale of the EU while denying freedom of movement or coherent laws on trade goods.

Frankly I'm sick of Farage, Boris and Cameron, in fact all sides.

But most of all I'm sick of the patriot bullcrap about migration that seems to be largely stealth racism. You know, there's this hashtag doing the rounds about a UK woman on This Morning who wants to crowd fund her 13th pregnancy. Frankly I'd rather 13 people from another country than that waste of space. We are all guests on this planet.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat said:


> We a
> Let's see what happens in 16 days time. Until then I resign from saying anything else on this topic. The majority of the UK population has made themselves clear to Cameron and he is popping himself because he has realised he is losing the trust of the UK people.


I think the majority of scaremongers and alarmists have made themselves clear to Cameron...

I was listening to a group of very well educated academics from the university here who study politics, sociology and history, and they were saying how the Out campaign is playing on the fears and dumbs down the complexity of what leaving the EU would actually do. They agreed it was dangerous.


----------



## Vanessa131

stockwellcat said:


> To be a migrant they must register under international law in the first country they land/arrive in and that isn't the UK.


No they don't, a migrant is someone who has moved from one country to another, whether it borders their home country is of no relevance.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## jon.bda

stockwellcat said:


> So I love my country Great Briatin


It just gets worse...


----------



## Vanessa131

stockwellcat said:


> perhaps because we have a free health service, benefits, council housing


Free passage does not make them migrants, just as us allowing free passage of jewish refugees during WW11 didn't make them migrants. The europe continent and europe are two different things, i don't believe merkel gave permission for free movement through russia!

A health service, benefits and council housing that they can't access is very useful. To use the nhs you need eu citizenship, the uk then claims any costs directly back from their home country, just like spain who have lots of british people who don't even bother working.

Poverty in the UK, what a joke. So where are these starving people who cannot afford basics such as clothes or food? 
Our people, people who live here are in no way special, all human beings are equal.

Migrants become law breakers do they, some blatantly obvious racism there.

Also, care to show these people you claim to have been made homeless by an immigrant, a link would be handy.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> I often wonder where all that money is going?
> 
> I know a lot finds it's way into the pockets of those that own the land, not those that work it even tenants
> 
> http://www.barbers-rural.co.uk/blog/who-owns-land
> "Amid fears that proceeds of foreign crime are being 'laundered' through the UK property market, Prime Minister David Cameron has called for more transparency and has announced proposals for the Land Registry to publish details of land held by foreign investment companies. The Financial Times has estimated that at least £122bn of property in England in Wales is owned by offshore companies and whilst most of this investment will be in commercial and residential property in London and the South East, some will be in agricultural property across the UK."


Much of it goes to super-wealthy land-owners who do no farming at all. The duke of Westminster is a big recipient. I read that IDS has had about a million pounds iirc so kudos to him for voting out. I know of several ex-farmers in Scotland who just stopped farming because they make tonnes more money just owning the land and getting a cheque every month from the taxpayer and I am told this is very widespread. All of this is the biggest use of our EU contributions.

I don't know how to work the system exactly but, if we stay in, I'll figure it out and buy me some qualifying land somewhere. There are consultants who specialise in helping folk to rip-off the taxpayer this way. If I can't beat 'em I'll try to join 'em.


----------



## Lilylass

I see the website for people to register to vote crashed just before the deadline last night due to volume of people trying to register 

Seriously - how long have people known about the vote - why on earth would you leave it to the very last gasp to do it!!! 

It's their responsibility to ensure they're on it & not leave it to the very last gasp!


----------



## havoc

After talking to my offspring it will be easy for me because they've come to same decision I would have done on my own so my vote will go the way they want without reservation. We have different reasons for reaching the same conclusion. They are looking forward with hard economical heads while I, being old, tend to have a more historical and social perspective.


----------



## Vanessa131

stockwellcat said:


> When someone attempts to break into a country it is illegal and that is then when they become criminals. Only yesterday 3 people tried to do it via crossing the channel.
> 
> People are living on the poverty line around our country and they are. We aren't all rich you know.
> 
> I know of several people who have been forced out of there homes, said homes are now up for rent to Eastern European families for free in return for keeping the property clean. These properties are on gum tree.
> 
> Seriously you must have your eyes closed if you can't see what is going on.
> 
> People love pulling the racist card when real problems about our country are being discussed. I am not racist by the way what so ever so nice try. If I am not allowed to discuss things about the country I was born in, my grandfather fought for and I live in then it is a sad place this country has become. Plenty of people feel the way I do. Look at the bottom of news reports and read peoples comments and you will see how people actually feel.


Where are all these people in poverty? Someone not being rich does not mean they are in poverty, certainly people on benefits aren't in poverty, if I was on benefits I would be better off than I am working full time. So where are these people in poverty who are starving? Poverty isn't struggling to buy a fifty inch TV or a packet of ****.

Lets see these properties then, lets also see which MP or party have decided to evict over a landlords head.

You suggested that all immigrants become criminals, therefore you are discriminating against certain groups of people. So no, I'm not playing the race card as I wasn't the one making a racist post which was then quickly deleted.


----------



## Vanessa131

Lilylass said:


> I see the website for people to register to vote crashed just before the deadline last night due to volume of people trying to register
> 
> Seriously - how long have people known about the vote - why on earth would you leave it to the very last gasp to do it!!!
> 
> It's their responsibility to ensure they're on it & not leave it to the very last gasp!


Its bonkers isn't it, it must mean a lot of people missed out on recent local elections as well. Yet they'll be moaning if they don't like their elected representatives!


----------



## havoc

_Where are all these people in poverty?_
There will always be the same percentage of people 'in poverty' because it's a relative measure. That doesn't mean there aren't people in dire need but not all those classed as 'in poverty' are in dire need.


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat said:


> When someone attempts to break into a country it is illegal and that is then when they become criminals. Only yesterday 3 people tried to do it via crossing the channel.
> 
> People are living on the poverty line around our country and they are. We aren't all rich you know.
> 
> I know of several people who have been forced out of there homes, said homes are now up for rent to Eastern European families for free in return for keeping the property clean. These properties are on gum tree.
> 
> Seriously you must have your eyes closed if you can't see what is going on.
> 
> People love pulling the racist card when real problems about our country are being discussed. I am not racist by the way what so ever so nice try. If I am not allowed to discuss things about the country I was born in, my grandfather fought for and I live in then it is a sad place this country has become. Plenty of people feel the way I do. Look at the bottom of news reports and read peoples comments and you will see how people actually feel.


Well said and yes I agree. None of us own this country and we are all immigrants. Being born here is one thing but if you trace back all our family histories, at some point we arrived be that as Vikings or more recently.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Yes you do. You are just picking at semantics. We could implement a different form of agricultural subsidy, this time a genuine one.


Just for clarity, since you don't know me very well; when I say I don't follow something, it means I don't follow something, rather than that I'm lying. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I now understand that you didn't mean we would reform CAP, which would still be operating in the EU, but that we would replace it with something else. Thank you for clearing it up.

And we could always use some of Boris's magic £350 m a week to do so!


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> _Where are all these people in poverty?_
> There will always be the same percentage of people 'in poverty' because it's a relative measure. That doesn't mean there aren't people in dire need but not all those classed as 'in poverty' are in dire need.


Exactly. I was going to make the point that child poverty is measured as "if they live in a household with an income below 60% of the median for a household of two adults", which means that there will always be children in poverty. Surely it would be preferable to measure different causes of deprivation, such as drug and alcohol dependence, family breakdown and debt; which makes much more sense and would surely lead to better ways of trying to get those children out of poverty, rather than upping tax credits and hoping for the best.


----------



## Milliepoochie

MollySmith said:


> You are aware than in Switzerland, despite not being in the EU, they still have to accept free movement of citizens. That's a fact, not a guess or a lie, conjecture and bollocks.
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/19/eu-deal-switzerland-immigration-uk-eurosceptics
> 
> In order to be part of EU trade, Switzerland still has to pay into the European Union, and they still need to be open to free movement of people. The only way to avoid this is to remove EU trade which will do what for economy, even supermarkets, education? It is not possible to gain multinational free trade agreement on the scale of the EU while denying freedom of movement or coherent laws on trade goods.
> 
> Frankly I'm sick of Farage, Boris and Cameron, in fact all sides.
> 
> But most of all I'm sick of the patriot bullcrap about migration that seems to be largely stealth racism. You know, there's this hashtag doing the rounds about a UK woman on This Morning who wants to crowd fund her 13th pregnancy. Frankly I'd rather 13 people from another country than that waste of space. We are all guests on this planet.


Fully agree with you.

The immigrants are being used as scapegoats and some of the things being said are so close to barring on racist it's depressing.

Voting out does not mean our borders will be 'shut' and what about all those Brits who shock horror choose to live in other European countries? People seem to forget it's a two way flow of people all over the world and within the EU.

As for Farrage on TV last night well I lasted about two minutes listening to his gibberish - Life is to short to give him any air time.

Its not as simple as voting out but continuing to see the perks from the trade agreements as you say we will still pay into the EU / still have to meet criteria and shock horror still allow free movement of people.

I am so sick of seeing all this rubbish on social media mainly from the Leave campaign - it has changed my mind on a few of my friends who I actually thought were intelligent people


----------



## cheekyscrip

Milliepoochie said:


> Fully agree with you.
> 
> The immigrants are being used as scapegoats and some of the things being said are so close to barring on racist it's depressing.
> 
> Voting out does not mean our borders will be 'shut' and what about all those Brits who shock horror choose to live in other European countries? People seem to forget it's a two way flow of people all over the world and within the EU.
> 
> As for Farrage on TV last night well I lasted about two minutes listening to his gibberish - Life is to short to give him any air time.
> 
> Its not as simple as voting out but continuing to see the perks from the trade agreements as you say we will still pay into the EU / still have to meet criteria and shock horror still allow free movement of people.
> 
> I am so sick of seeing all this rubbish on social media mainly from the Leave campaign - it has changed my mind on a few of my friends who I actually thought were intelligent people


Problem is people just cannot see the big picture, how things work together,how things influence each other..
It is not about Cameron, any election can get him out. 
the power of other blocs are rising and their influence on the world market, military presence, effect on environment...
How much do Russia or China care about human rights or environment?
EU accepted new members to become in long run more powerful and more influential defending the values we stand for!!!

Freedom, human rights, so on...New members were poorer as direct result of being since 1945 exploited by Soviet Union, and it was not their choice...Blame the allies who gave them to Stalin.

Would you really want to sent them back to carry on feeding Russia? Forgot Cold War far too early!!

So after Brexit if you do not want to trade with EU and contribute..then who you trade with?

Look beyond your street, your town...you cannot just turn your back and say it will take care of itself...as you said in 1938...and then in it took just three years to land right bang in?

in some Leave leaflets replace "Immigrants" by "Jews" and it sounds exactly like Hitler's propaganda!! We all understand why angry and disappointed Germans...ordinary working people fell for it.

We now how it ended.

I know all about anti capitalist commie propaganda too.

Isolation will not make Britain stronger. Falling pound will make it weaker. I see Farage with # Take Control...
If he is in control......

united we stand . Divided we fall. We all live in Europe. In democracy. lets try to make it a better place. EU needs lots of improvement..True.But every man for himself is not going to make our world any better.


----------



## Milliepoochie

cheekyscrip said:


> Problem is people just cannot see the big picture, how things work together,how things influence each other..
> It is not about Cameron, any election can get him out.
> the power of other blocs are rising and their influence on the world market, military presence, effect on environment...
> How much do Russia or China care about human rights or environment?
> EU accepted new members to become in long run more powerful and more influential defending the values we stand for!!!
> 
> Freedom, human rights, so on...New members were poorer as direct result of being since 1945 exploited by Soviet Union, and it was not their choice...Blame the allies who gave them to Stalin.
> 
> Would you really want to sent them back to carry on feeding Russia? Forgot Cold War far too early!!
> 
> So after Brexit if you do not want to trade with EU and contribute..then who you trade with?
> 
> Look beyond your street, your town...you cannot just turn your back and say it will take care of itself...as you said in 1938...and then in it took just three years to land right bang in?
> 
> in some Leave leaflets replace "Immigrants" by "Jews" and it sounds exactly like Hitler's propaganda!! We all understand why angry and disappointed Germans...ordinary working people fell for it.
> 
> We now how it ended.
> 
> I know all about anti capitalist commie propaganda too.
> 
> Isolation will not make Britain stronger. Falling pound will make it weaker. I see Farage with # Take Control...
> If he is in control......
> 
> united we stand . Divided we fall. We all live in Europe. In democracy. lets try to make it a better place. EU needs lots of improvement..True.But every man for himself is not going to make our world any better.


Well said Cheeky.

A lot of people are not looking at the bigger picture and are believing for example the border / immigrant 'crisis' for our own country's failings or even worse using the EU leave vote to show dislike for the Conservative government...

I have to admit on a personal level depending on how things turn out in the next year or two it's made us Truly think if our future as a family would even be in the UK in the long run.

Guess that's one more immigrant gone then


----------



## MilleD

Milliepoochie said:


> I am so sick of seeing all this rubbish on social media mainly from the Leave campaign - it has changed my mind on a few of my friends who I actually thought were intelligent people


So anyone with a differing opinion to you is thick?


----------



## havoc

_I have to admit on a personal level depending on how things turn out in the next year or two it's made us Truly think if our future as a family would even be in the UK in the long run._
Has crossed my mind too. At least I'm in a position to be able to live wherever I want, not an option for many.

_So anyone with a differing opinion to you is thick?_
That's a single issue, knee jerk reaction and not what the poster said.


----------



## MollySmith

I watched some of it and was struck by the strange situation of not supporting either UKIP or Conservative and yet having to listen to both, in order to decide how to vote. It was unnerving and yet I didn't much care who won my opinion.

I think if the vote comes down to economics then Cameron may have nailed it but I think he and the big PR machine have no idea how poorly viewed he is these days. His assertion that we should vote for our children and grandchildren fails to impress me and 1 in four who can't have children, but also the younger votes. I felt he ignored the questions that could have helped to sway the voters and dealt with the past. A more spirited 'sale' about a brighter future would have been better but there lies the problem. Neither Cameron or Farage know any facts.

And Farage I think underminded those asked the questions by refusing to open the debate to wide issues. He seemed to take delight in trolling and focusing on Cameron's weak spot and the fears of immigration. He seemed to completely flounder when challenged about leaving the EU not meaning a closed door because it's lies.

The Guardian say that it's like the Joker and Lex Luthor out to battle and nobody cares who wins. That sums it up… and does this:

'Imagine that you see the wretched strangers.
Their babies at their backs and their poor luggage.
Plodding to the ports and coasts for transportation.
And that you sit as kings in your desires'.
William Shakespeare.


----------



## MollySmith

Anyone pulling the stealth racism card (or not at all quietly) needs to watch this
http://www.littlethings.com/amazing...om&utm_campaign=inspiring&utm_medium=Facebook

You can skip if you feel to challenged by the opinions… to 3.19, this man claimed it was 100% English. And the lady at 3.39.

In closing our borders (which the no Vote does not achieve - see Switzerland) you are very much cutting off your ancestory.


----------



## MiffyMoo

MilleD said:


> So anyone with a differing opinion to you is thick?


I saw a post on my FB a couple of days ago from a friend who is definitely voting to remain. It was along the lines of "Please ensure you tell your hairdresser / physiotherapist / neighbour etc. that they HAVE to vote to remain". That made me so cross that I pointed out that she ought to have stopped the sentence after vote, but she said there was only one right choice, so why should she tell everyone. She is also the one who told me that I'm only voting to leave because a mutual friend told me to. I am finding there is a common theme that anyone voting to leave is thick and ill informed.


----------



## havoc

_I am finding there is a common theme that anyone voting to leave is thick and ill informed._
No, you are finding a common theme that people have differing views and for different reasons. If the reason given by someone for voting any particular way isn't well thought through then it's either because they're too stupid to reason it out or they haven't looked properly at the issues. In those cases (no matter which way they're voting) then they certainly are thick and/or ill informed.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> _I am finding there is a common theme that anyone voting to leave is thick and ill informed._
> No, you are finding a common theme that people have differing views and for different reasons. If the reason given by someone for voting any particular way isn't well thought through then it's either because they're too stupid to reason it out or they haven't looked properly at the issues. In those cases (no matter which way they're voting) then they certainly are thick and/or ill informed.


No, I know what I meant, and I'm definitely finding a lot of disdainful posts about people who are voting "the wrong way".

There are an awful lot of people who are still on the fence, as they are finding it difficult to cut through the hyperbole from both sides and get basic facts - frankly, how dare you label them as "too stupid to reason it out".


----------



## havoc

_There are an awful lot of people who are still on the fence, as they are finding it difficult to cut through the hyperbole from both sides and get basic facts -frankly, how dare you label them as "too stupid to reason it out"._
I didn't. I said those who are already entrenched in a decision without being able to give good reason for being so are either stupid or ill informed. I never said a word about those still trying to come to a decision.


----------



## SurfCFC

I've found it very confusing to be honest, no-one seems to be able to give unbiased facts about what will happen either way, especially if we vote to leave. I think I'll be voting to stay; I don't see personally how leaving will actually benefit us and the fact I don't know what will happen if we leave makes me want to stay.

I can kind of see it from both sides, yes it would be great to be independent in one sense and I am sure there will be benefits (whether short term and/or long term) but actually IMO our economy will suffer for it and this is a big factor for what I am basing my opinion on. I am generally of the opinion that if we stay things will remain the same, which isn’t necessarily great but at least it's not venturing into the unknown.


----------



## Milliepoochie

MilleD said:


> So anyone with a differing opinion to you is thick?


Did I say that?

That may be your opinion but not mine.

But yes I do think a certain way of anyone who shares meme's which are so close to being pure racism under the intention of being 'British and Proud' just like I do those who share 'Britain First' statuses.

I mean come on the likes of those sharing the outline of the U.K. In filled with the Union Jack with the words 'Save Britain'...

What does that tell us?!? Save Britain from what?!?!


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> _There are an awful lot of people who are still on the fence, as they are finding it difficult to cut through the hyperbole from both sides and get basic facts -frankly, how dare you label them as "too stupid to reason it out"._
> I didn't. I said those who are already entrenched in a decision without being able to give good reason for being so are either stupid or ill informed. I never said a word about those still trying to come to a decision.


It is not for you to comment or decide on anyone's level of stupidity, whatever they vote or their reasoning. Their reason may be good enough for them, or maybe they just aren't as erudite as you, but either way, you have to respect that that is their decision and not slate them for not being able to give you a convincing argument.


----------



## havoc

Oh I respect their right to their own opinion just as I'm entitled to mine. If my opinion of somebody is that they aren't the sharpest tool in the box then I'm entitled to believe so.


----------



## MilleD

Milliepoochie said:


> Did I say that?
> 
> That may be your opinion but not mine.


It felt implied.



Milliepoochie said:


> But yes I do think a certain way of anyone who shares meme's which are so close to being pure racism under the intention of being 'British and Proud' just like I do those who share 'Britain First' statuses.


Oh, I agree on this one. People post Britain First stuff without the foggiest idea what they actually stand for.


----------



## cheekyscrip

@Milliepoochie ....that may mean more than one....if Gibraltar is going to collapse after frontier closure or given to Spain ....we would definitely rethink where we are to go...
My children are Mud blood so maybe UK under Farage and BNP ilk is not very good place for them?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## rona

MiffyMoo said:


> I am finding there is a common theme that anyone voting to leave is thick and ill informed.


and racist..........don't forget racist


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> No, clearly not, but I suspect he has far better insight than the man on the street. I would also question your claim that the current Government are "ultra right wing neoliberals" - you certainly do like your soundbites.
> 
> So basically it makes absolutely no difference whether we're in or out as to whether licenses or actual fracking goes ahead.
> 
> You may also want to rethink who you are solely blaming for this - if it was purely right wing, and Labour were so anti, why they did state, in their election manifesto, that they would support a regulated fracking industry?


Its an accurate description. Neoliberals are advocates of deregulation & privatisation. They believe in a small state. A free market. And this is the most extreme right wing government in my lifetime. They are devisive propagandists. Take a look at their campaigns & policies? Under this austerity con, we are witnessing the biggest transfer of public money into private hands. And many of those in the brexit camp are farther right still - akin to Americas Tea Party faction. Climate change deniers. Laissez faires purists. Xenophobes.

The far right is rising again - right across Europe - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...the-rise-of-far-right-politicians-everywhere/ God help us.

And you really didn't need to be an economist to predict the financial crash of 2008. Bernie Sanders predicted it in 1998. He has spoken out against neoliberalism throughout his political career. Neoliberalism is the doctrine of uncontrolled markets. If we do vote out, just wait till the brexiteers cut whats left of that red tape:Nailbiting








MiffyMoo said:


> So basically it makes absolutely no difference whether we're in or out as to whether licenses or actual fracking goes ahead.
> 
> You may also want to rethink who you are solely blaming for this - if it was purely right wing, and Labour were so anti, why they did state, in their election manifesto, that they would support a regulated fracking industry?


More to the point it disproves the leave campaigns argument that we a controlled by the EU. If we had a progressive government & more progressive MEPs fracking probably wouldnt even be on the agenda right now.

Sorry but I'm afraid I'm no apologist for labour. New labour have been disgraceful over this issue - & others. Hence the disillusionment felt by many that the party was not fully representing their best interests anymore. The party should have voted against fracking, instead they tried to negotiate with the tories to regulate the filthy industry. However Jeremy Corbyn did vote against it. Under Jeremy Corbyn true labour may once again emerge - if the neoliberal blairites tow the line or defect to the tory party!

Desmog the blog has the full story - http://www.desmog.uk/2015/08/07/what-do-labour-leadership-candidates-think-about-fracking

*Fracking Moratorium*

However, unlike Burnham, Jeremy Corbyn was the only candidate who defied the party whips' mass abstention, along with 19 other Labour MPs, and voted _for_ an 18 month moratorium on fracking when the opportunity presented itself back in January.

Corbyn says he is wholly against fracking and believes that more should be done to increase the country's renewable energy production.

Corbyn said: "Having looked at the evidence of the environmental damage and pollution caused by hydraulic fracturing, I am completely opposed to fracking."

"The further extraction of hard-to-reach fossil fuels is not compatible with the UK's national and international commitments. Instead, we should be ensuring greater investment in renewable energy generation.



MoggyBaby said:


> My post was not directed at you Noush - I was talking generally. Facebook especially is full of memes and I know for a fact that some of the folks posting them most definitely are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. There are folks who can post stuff and make you think more on your opinions and there are folks who post stuff that just make you fearful about theirs.


Thank you then, MB


----------



## rona

Voting out doesn't mean that Farage, Boris or any other out supporter will ever run this country. This isn't a popularity contest


----------



## Vanessa131

So I see they have extended the registration deadline.


----------



## CuddleMonster

Saw this on Facebook this week. A fairly accurate summing up of the information I've received from the two sides - is it any wonder so many people are having trouble making up their minds?!!


----------



## diefenbaker

CuddleMonster said:


> Saw this on Facebook this week. A fairly accurate summing up of the information I've received from the two sides - is it any wonder so many people are having trouble making up their minds?!!


All this tells us is that Ralph is in the "undecided" camp.


----------



## CuddleMonster

diefenbaker said:


> All this tells us is that Ralph is in the "undecided" camp.


Or maybe he is someone who has got fed up with people hassling him to vote 'their' way by using scaremongering & insults? I've had so many rude comments from people on both sides of the debate, that I'm seriously considering voting for a different kind of 'leave' (as in me leaving the UK because I'm getting so fed up with my fellow British citizens!)


----------



## havoc

_Disagreeing with someone doesn't make the other person stupid or thick and I resent being called this._
Nobody on here is suggesting that. Nobody on here has tried to bully anyone into voting one way or another by suggesting they are too stupid to make up their own minds. It is a feeling people are getting away from this forum (at least that's what was said in earlier posts) and I don't see anything wrong in asking someone to put forward a reasoned argument if they're trying to persuade you to vote one way or the other. If they can't then it's them who is stupid and ill informed, not you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## havoc

I couldn't have come to a decision on the issues taking centre stage. For example, would I prefer a chance for greater control over immigration - probably. Do I believe immigration at current levels affects the economy - yes but probably in a positive way. I have an opinion (be it heart or head) on each of the issues being thrust at me by both camps but none of them can be taken in isolation as they each affect others.

Wouldn't it be lovely if there were a right answer


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## cheekyscrip

Just to say, whether you agree with me or not I respect you all the same.
I can be friends with peeps who have different opinion on religion or drugs, or Even Brexit.

Only animal welfare and human rights are non negotiable.

Though environmental issues are close to that...


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## Blackadder

I've been watching, listening, reading both sides of the argument & have come to the conclusion that neither side knows what the outcome of a Leave win will be.
As no country has ever left the present EU there is no information to make any predictions on so it's all guesswork, assumptions &, yes, scaremongering to suit whichever side the "experts" support.
After all this time I still don't have a clue & unless something concrete is suddenly unveiled I won't be voting.


----------



## havoc

Please vote. Don't care where you put your X but please do it. This is the one and only time you can guarantee your vote will count. It won't be decided area by area, constituency by constituency so it doesn't matter if you go against the grain for your area. Every single vote will count on a national level.


----------



## Guest

http://www.npr.org/sections/paralle...ign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20160608

This is an article written for Americans to understand the remain/leave vote.


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## Brrosa

havoc said:


> Please vote. Don't care where you put your X but please do it. This is the one and only time you can guarantee your vote will count. It won't be decided area by area, constituency by constituency so it doesn't matter if you go against the grain for your area. Every single vote will count on a national level.


I'm not so sure that if someone is totally undecided, meaning they are not slightly leaning in any direction, that they should vote. I think no vote kind of gives no bias in any direction whereas if you insist on someone voting who is not already swayed in any direction it's just a coin toss (with potentially unintended consequences).

I agree if you are slightly preferring one vs the other then you should vote - at the end of the day nobody has all or even a fraction of the answers so I'm not sure anyone would have a good reason covering all aspects of what the answer should be (or at least they are not sharing them on the TV debates). But we live in a democracy and we have a democratic right to vote or not to vote.


----------



## Blackadder

havoc said:


> Please vote. *Don't care where you put your X but please do it.* This is the one and only time you can guarantee your vote will count. It won't be decided area by area, constituency by constituency so it doesn't matter if you go against the grain for your area. Every single vote will count on a national level.


That's the thing, I do care! There has to be something to sway me one way or another & both sides have failed in that respect, there just isn't any factual evidence to support any of the (sometimes hysterical) outcomes put forward.
To close my eyes & put a cross wherever my pen lands just to register a vote doesn't sit right.


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## cheekyscrip

I see a point in handing in empty vote.
But usually as a objection to your choices...

In this case as nothing is ideal I go with less harm done...

I see that Britain, Europe, world faces many problems...from terrorism to climate change to overpopulation and so on..

Just do not see how leaving EU would make it better...
For Britain, for Europe, for the world..

Democratic nations, more aware and caring about human rights, women rights, animal rights, environment should stand united and defend them against totalitarism, fanatics and shortsighted exploitation of natural resources.

Sorry, we may turn our back but it will only make things worse and reach us eventually.

Fighters not quitters.


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## havoc

I can't believe there wouldn't be something would give you a bit of a sway one way or another. Just because politicians are telling us we should be considering their preferred issues doesn't mean they're the only things we're entitled to take into account. This has the potential to affect so many aspects of everyday life.


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## noushka05

BlackadderUK said:


> That's the thing, I do care! There has to be something to sway me one way or another & both sides have failed in that respect, there just isn't any factual evidence to support any of the (sometimes hysterical) outcomes put forward.
> To close my eyes & put a cross wherever my pen lands just to register a vote doesn't sit right.


The progressive campaign isn't based on fear, lies & hate mongering. They don't use the devisive, scaremongering tactics favoured by the right. Have a look at what they are saying 

And be aware of the consequences of what happens if we do brexit. Have you heard of Article 50 ? http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/b...-horror-why-you-need-to-know-about-article-50

http://infacts.org/7-reasons-eu-exit-wont-be-easy/


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## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> The progressive campaign isn't based on fear, lies & hate mongering. They don't use the devisive, scaremongering tactics favoured by the right. Have a look at what they are saying
> 
> And be aware of the consequences of what happens if we do brexit. Have you heard of Article 50 ? http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/b...-horror-why-you-need-to-know-about-article-50
> 
> http://infacts.org/7-reasons-eu-exit-wont-be-easy/


I saw it in action... Spain wanted to rise on second homes ( and they are mostly own by foreigners...British the largest group)...EU stopped that.
Spain wanted to charge everyone for leaving or entering Gibraltar.
EU stopped that. Freedom of movement.

Spain made many hours frontier queues...at least got told off and ordered to improve the flow.
EU courts decided in favour of gay civil partnership in Gibraltar 2014.

Yes...you can actually take control and take your government to court and win.

Just examples.


----------



## noushka05

CuddleMonster said:


> Saw this on Facebook this week. A fairly accurate summing up of the information I've received from the two sides - is it any wonder so many people are having trouble making up their minds?!!
> 
> View attachment 273472





diefenbaker said:


> All this tells us is that Ralph is in the "undecided" camp.


I follow Ralph on twitter, hes a great champion of environmental & social justice as most of his cartoons portray. He is frustrated that we haven't had any decent coverage of the EU referendum - hence that particular cartoon. I wouldn't say he was undecided though. lol



















Ralphs cartoons are good at making you think.


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## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> I saw it in action... Spain wanted to rise on second homes ( and they are mostly own by foreigners...British the largest group)...EU stopped that.
> Spain wanted to charge everyone for leaving or entering Gibraltar.
> EU stopped that. Freedom of movement.
> 
> Spain made many hours frontier queues...at least got told off and ordered to improve the flow.
> EU courts decided in favour of gay civil partnership in Gibraltar 2014.
> 
> Yes...you can actually take control and take your government to court and win.
> 
> Just examples.


Exactly. The EU is far from perfect but it protects us on so many levels & we can make it better


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## CuddleMonster

noushka05 said:


> The progressive campaign isn't based on fear, lies & hate mongering. They don't use the devisive, scaremongering tactics favoured by the right. Have a look at what they are saying


The 'official' campaign may not be based on these things, but I have been told by many 'stay' voters that I will be selfish, greedy and racist if I vote 'leave'!

I'm concerned for our country whichever way we vote - judging by the number of angry & abusive people on both sides, it doesn't bode well for our future.


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## havoc

There do seem to be a lot of very angry and abusive people I agree. I do think the politicians are playing to the fears and prejudices of that sector of the population to whip up that anger - either side. There are no answers, we can't know until we decide and even then we'll always wonder 'what if'.
_I have been told by many 'stay' voters that I will be selfish, greedy and racist if I vote 'leave'!_
Then ask them to explain themselves. I don't understand selfish because I believe that individually we will be worse off if we leave. Greedy sort of follows on from that and racist, well if immigration isn't one of the key issues in your decision then it can't apply. If it is it doesn't automatically mean you are racist - though of course there are many racists who will vote a particular way on the immigration issue alone which doesn't help reasoned debate.


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## rona

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies

*Euroscepticism on the rise all across Europe ....*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ts-euroscepticism-on-the-rise-all-across-eur/

So it's not just the Uk? And I thought it was just us lol And it's thought if an 'exist' happens (which i think is unlikely) that others would also look to have a similar referendum in their own countries.

Wake up EU. You only get dissatisfaction to this level when you are doing something wrong.

J


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## MoggyBaby

The below is copied from Facebook. In my opinion, I think it is well written and very informative and debunks a few of the 'fears' some folks seem to be harbouring should the 'Leave' vote be the majority.





There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:

You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.

You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.

You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.

You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.


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## MollySmith

Is there a traceable source to the above @MoggyBaby ? Who wrote the words that appeared on FB, as there are lots of well written but still not necessarily always correct. Though this sounds better than most , I'm keeping in mind Martin Lewis's nobody knows post.


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## MoggyBaby

MollySmith said:


> Is there a traceable source to the above @MoggyBaby ? Who wrote the words that appeared on FB, as there are lots of well written but still not necessarily always correct. Though this sounds better than most , I'm keeping in mind Martin Lewis's nobody knows post.


https://www.facebook.com/summerwhite01


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## havoc

_ I'm keeping in mind Martin Lewis's nobody knows post._
Nobody does know, I'm sure if they did they'd tell us. It's always about how the money we pay in 'could' be re-routed rather than assurances it will be.


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## MollySmith

MoggyBaby said:


> https://www.facebook.com/summerwhite01


Thanks.


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Got this in the post today.


Still peddling the £350 million a week lie, then.


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## Arnie83

MoggyBaby said:


> The below is copied from Facebook. In my opinion, I think it is well written and very informative and debunks a few of the 'fears' some folks seem to be harbouring should the 'Leave' vote be the majority.
> 
> *You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.
> 
> The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.*


Some interesting opinions from a Leave point of view, a few of which are debatable.

The two above though:

The EEA point is interesting. Our membership of the EEA is separate from that of the EU, and agrees to free movement of labour. Will we have to have another referendum on leaving the EEA, or will the post Brexit government make that decision for us, I wonder.

And the second one is extremely unclear and probably extremely wrong.

When is the first year after we leave? 2017? Or is it after negotiations are completed a few years later? Presumably the latter, since we will still be members of the EU in 2017 whatever the vote, and still subject to all its fees, so we won't be benefiting at all. And if it's the latter, any money we might save on fees will be dependent on what the result of the negotiation is. If we choose to remain members of the single market, we will still be paying fees at some level. If not our reduction in trade and other knock-on economic conditions would almost certainly make a hole in our finances big enough to swallow any gains (£20 - £40 billion according to the IFS http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8296).

So I'm not sure where the writer got his or her information from, but when they refer to 'facts' I think they might be being a little economical with the verite.


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## noushka05

Satori said:


> ..... the Common Agricultral Policy
> 
> Seriously though, I am shocked that your lot are not campaigning vigorously to get out and have a least a chance to reform the CAP which is both anti-environmental and the most ultra-right wing regressive tax in the history of so-called democracy.


You're right about the CAP. It is a shocking piece of legislation And just guess which government is largely responsible for the worst of it? Why would a tory government do better outside the EU? As if they would ever cap a subsidy that benefits the rich . Or suddenly start caring for our environment lol I've become very familiar with how this lot tick lol



rona said:


> I often wonder where all that money is going?
> 
> I know a lot finds it's way into the pockets of those that own the land, not those that work it even tenants
> 
> http://www.barbers-rural.co.uk/blog/who-owns-land
> "Amid fears that proceeds of foreign crime are being 'laundered' through the UK property market, Prime Minister David Cameron has called for more transparency and has announced proposals for the Land Registry to publish details of land held by foreign investment companies. The Financial Times has estimated that at least £122bn of property in England in Wales is owned by offshore companies and whilst most of this investment will be in commercial and residential property in London and the South East, some will be in agricultural property across the UK."


What? Cameron said this in 2015! And now hes actually going to flog 'OUR' Land Registry!! And all the bidders have links to tax havens. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7db67062-22b7-11e6-840f-4c4661f34181 You couldn't make it up!

The duplicity of Cameron knows no bounds -- http://www.thecanary.co/2016/03/25/16830/

*With much of the say over land development moving to the Land Registry, we come to the next issue. The government is selling off the Land Registry to private, profit making interests.

The government has also ordered local authorities to transfer up to 90% of brown field sites (previously developed sites that have become vacant, contaminated but could be reused) into the hands of the Homes and Communities Agency (the latest quango) where Eric Pickles (and his successors) and just two inspectors will control the planning decisions.

The Infrastructure Bill contains a clause which will allow ALL public land to be privatised. There's no need to reference the Forestry Act 1967, the Countryside Rights of Way Act or any other protective law, because Schedule 3 of the Bill- states that "the property, rights and liabilities that may be transferred by a scheme include… property, rights and liabilities that would not otherwise be capable of being transferred or assigned."

In plain English, this means all preceding regulations, legislation and other protections for this site are null and void - fill your boots.

If this Bill passes, we will have the private sector deciding the sale price, planning requirements and development plans for publicly owned land. The government is taking our land - our communally owned parks, rivers, beaches, moors, mountains and fields - handing the lot over to the control of one private company, and removing any democratic mandate for decision making whatsoever.*



Satori said:


> Much of it goes to super-wealthy land-owners who do no farming at all. The duke of Westminster is a big recipient. I read that IDS has had about a million pounds iirc so kudos to him for voting out. I know of several ex-farmers in Scotland who just stopped farming because they make tonnes more money just owning the land and getting a cheque every month from the taxpayer and I am told this is very widespread. All of this is the biggest use of our EU contributions.
> 
> I don't know how to work the system exactly but, if we stay in, I'll figure it out and buy me some qualifying land somewhere. There are consultants who specialise in helping folk to rip-off the taxpayer this way. If I can't beat 'em I'll try to join 'em.


Just trying to work out whether people have 'liked' this because they think (millionaire benefit scrounger & grim reaper) IDS has suddenly developed principles. Or if they support your great idea to join the land owning robber barons :Hilarious



CuddleMonster said:


> The 'official' campaign may not be based on these things, but I have been told by many 'stay' voters that I will be selfish, greedy and racist if I vote 'leave'!
> 
> I'm concerned for our country whichever way we vote - judging by the number of angry & abusive people on both sides, it doesn't bode well for our future.


The official IN campaign is split into two very seperate groups. Camerons with his usual politics of fear & blame. And the progressive group - which is a factual based campaign of hope. I don't know which side of the campaign your abusers come from, but whichever, abusing people is out of order.

Have you seen the abuse Owen Jones has been getting from some nasty brexiters












stockwellcat said:


> Thanks for this.
> 
> Regarding the link to article 50 this is someone's view on it published on a media source (Prospect magazine), it is not the actual link to article 50. The persons view shouldn't be taken into consideration only hard facts. It was interesting to read but I'd rather see what article 50 says of the Lisbon Treaty, otherwise I wouldn't be tempted to sway from my decision (I am not planning to change my mind but was hypothetically speaking).
> 
> I don't trust the media outlets because they seem to spin things to make favour for the side they are backing that day and don't get there story's right telling us what they think we want to know.


Did you not read the other link? Here is their code of ethics - http://infacts.org/code-of-ethics/

No, I can see from your 'migrant' posts you don't trust media outlets - certainly not the gutter press



stockwellcat said:


> Thank you Rona for putting the link up. Had a read and the treaty seems fair to me. Won't be changing my mind.


Copied from Ronas link. It supports what the journalist in Prospect magazine said lol. The UK will have no influence over any deal the EU offers - or even the amount of time given to the talks! Are you not concerned about that?

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

.


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## cheekyscrip




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## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 273550


Yes and the EU is just one huge deceptive layer of the political system we could do without


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## CuddleMonster

havoc said:


> _I have been told by many 'stay' voters that I will be selfish, greedy and racist if I vote 'leave'!_
> Then ask them to explain themselves. I don't understand selfish because I believe that individually we will be worse off if we leave. Greedy sort of follows on from that and racist, well if immigration isn't one of the key issues in your decision then it can't apply. If it is it doesn't automatically mean you are racist - though of course there are many racists who will vote a particular way on the immigration issue alone which doesn't help reasoned debate.


The idea behind 'selfish & greedy' is that you vote leave because you believe you will be better off financially and never mind the rest of the world. The 'racist' abuse is based on the emphasis the leave campaign has put on immigration - therefore, you must hate immigrants.  I've found that asking people WHY they assume you have certain views if you vote a certain way is not very productive - you just get more knee-jerk reactions!

Some people have suggested making your mind up on the basis of whether or not you would vote 'in' if we were currently 'out', but I don't think it's that simple - starting something new is very different to undoing something that has already been done. If we were currently not in the EU, I would definitely NOT be voting to join, but that doesn't make me a 'vote leave' person now.


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I want to make something clear. I live in an area of the UK that has been hit hard with the influx of migrants. I do not have a problem with genuine migrants eg fleeing wars or abuse and I want to reiterate *I am not racist what-so-ever actually far from it*. I feel sorry for the migrants fleeing war as they are in a bad desperate situation what I disagree with is the economic migrants who have no reason to flee anything are using the current migrant crisis to get were they want to be and on top of this terrorists are exploiting the entire migrant crisis to get where they want to be to carry out harm on people. Doesn't this concern anyone? Then on top of this the EU is expanding it's borders to the door step of Syria, we can't deal with the amount of people already flocking through Europe to the UK.
> 
> There is no right or wrong answer to the EU referendum debate. It has been left to us to research on and vote on.


'Economic migrants who have no reason to flee anything'? Might their reason be to improve the lives of themselves and their families?

And may I ask what you think the situation will be in Syria when Turkey are granted full membership of the EU?


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## MoggyBaby

I live in an economic migrant heavy area - VERY heavy and my problem with this is that they are filling job roles which would normally be entry level onto the working/employment ladder for school leavers or the part-time positions mothers previously slotted into when their children went back to school. The current level of legal, economic migration needs to be curbed but no-one seems capable of doing this. Furthermore, far too many are sending their earnings back to their home country which means far too much money is going out of the UK rather than being put back into the system. I fully appreciate that people come here for a better life but that should not be at the detriment of our own young people who can't get jobs and are made to feel worthless.


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## Arnie83

This matter should never have been put to a referendum. And I think that's my final comment on it in here (you'll be pleased to hear! ).


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## CuddleMonster

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding Turkey they seem to be co-operating with the EU to get membership, let's see what happens.
> 
> Regarding the migrants *they have to make an attempt to integrate into the western way of life, the majority refuse to* and even in our own country they are segregating themselves from us and setting up there own communities transforming areas of the UK. It works both ways regarding coming to live in another country.


Sadly, it is often not the immigrants' fault that they are segregated. Recently, I met a lovely refugee mum and daughter who were so eager to integrate into British life. They had originally been settled in a part of town that had a lot of white British residents, but had to be moved to a predominantly Asian area due to the amount of physical and verbal abuse they were receiving from their white neighbours. I was so touched that even after the treatment they had received, they were so delighted to be able to talk to a white British person. This is not an isolated incident, just the most recent one to come to my attention.

Of course, not every reaction is as extreme. Example of a conversation I have regularly:

Other person "I wouldn't mind those people coming here if they would integrate into our culture. But they insist on living in their little ghettos and that's not right."

Me "Do you have any living in your area?"

Other person "Yes, but fortunately none of them have moved into our street yet. We like our neighbourhood the way it is and don't want it to change."

As you say, it works both ways...


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## CuddleMonster

@stockwellcat I hope you didn't think that my post was aimed at you? It wasn't meant to be. It's just that I've found a lot of people assume immigrants' non-integration is always the immigrants' fault/choice and in my experience, it isn't. Even those who chose to live in a segregated area often do so because they are afraid of the reaction if they moved into a more diverse area. In my experience, the majority would love to integrate but have either been denied the opportunity by those already living here or are too afraid to try.


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## rona

Andrea Leadsom in the debate on ITV. Brilliant...........


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## rona

I wish the in campaigners could convince me to vote in. I have a small private pension maturing next year, the only one I have and it's very small..............will be smaller if we vote out but no one has convinced me that to remain is anything but a mistake.
Am I mad to risk my own finances for this?


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## westie~ma

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...uk-receives-most-eu-funding-and-how-does-thi/

Leaning towards out but how do I know for certain (trust?!) that the politicians will continue to support Wales (and other poorer areas) with all the spare cash freed up from not paying a membership fee.

From the tv I hear all this cash can go on the nhs but in reality other areas of the country are in dire need too.

In an unusual position as I can see London (south) could survive anything but how will the rest of us cope?

I watched the itv dabate (part of it) Gisela Stewart just talks sense.

In two minds.



rona said:


> I wish the in campaigners could convince me to vote in. I have a small private pension maturing next year, the only one I have and it's very small..............will be smaller if we vote out but no one has convinced me that to remain is anything but a mistake.
> Am I mad to risk my own finances for this?


I've no pension Rona, its all in property, but the decision is similar me or others.


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## rona

I'm sure there will be instability for a while, particularly if we vote out


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## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


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## FeelTheBern

rona said:


> I'm sure there will be instability for a while, particularly if we vote out


I think this also, but I believe that although leaving the EU may not have a positive effect immediately, it will benefit the country in the long term.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> I missed it I am afraid. Will watch tomorrow.


Be sure to catch her final two facts


----------



## FeelTheBern

stockwellcat said:


> I missed it I am afraid. Will watch tomorrow.


Are you voting in or out?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## FeelTheBern

stockwellcat said:


> Out. Nothing changing my mind either.  What about you?


Definetly out. Because I have moderately right wing views, I have always liked Boris Johnson. I thought he was a good mayor of London and he makes very good points about why the UK is better on its own.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## FeelTheBern

stockwellcat said:


> It feels good to know I am not the only out supporter on here


You're definetly not-55 members have said that they are definetly voting out! Do you think that the UK will leave the EU?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed on 27th July 2017 as I no longer wish to be involved in this thread.


----------



## FeelTheBern

stockwellcat said:


> Yes I do, people in general not on here (petforums) are fed up, speaking to my neighbours of 92 houses 91 of them said they are voting out the other one is undecided. Does Britain have a future outside the EU of course, it's silly not to think this even Cameron admitted Britain would thrive outside of the EU (btw can't stand the man). It's not all doom and gloom as Cameron has told us for I don't know how many weeks for. His weakness is he lies to much. Britain has as much chance of succeeding as Finland, Switzerland and anyone else who wishes to leave.


My thoughts exactly. But is Switzerland actually in the EU? I don't believe it is. But I may be wrong as I'm not exactly interested in Swiss politics.


----------



## stockwellcat.

FeelTheBern said:


> My thoughts exactly. But is Switzerland actually in the EU? I don't believe it is. But I may be wrong.


It's not but it was and has survived outside the EU.

I am solidly in the out camp trust me. Can't wait to see the the faces in the European Power House when this Great country takes back what is rightfully ours.


----------



## FeelTheBern

stockwellcat said:


> It's not but it was and has survived outside the EU.
> 
> I am solidly in the out camp trust me. Can't wait to see the the faces in the European Power House when this Great country takes back what is rightfully ours.


Let's make June 23 the British independence day!


----------



## stockwellcat.

FeelTheBern said:


> Let's make June 23 the British independence day!


I have been reposting this since the referendum started on various media outlets, forums etc.


----------



## FeelTheBern

stockwellcat said:


> I have been reposting this since the referendum started on various media outlets, forums etc.


Good on you! Spread the word!


----------



## stockwellcat.

FeelTheBern said:


> Good on you! Spread the word!


I am one of the 55 voters on here as well  forgot to tell you.


----------



## Citruspips

In or out, I think the UK will probably do just fine. However, if we vote out what do you guys think will be the effect on Europe? I'm still wavering but really worry about this.

Two scenarios concern me. First, Brexit could trigger the beginning of the end of the European Union, with increasing feelings of nationalism and further break up possibly threatening the peace it was initially set up to protect. Secondly, Brexit gives Europe a good wake up call, it reforms, becomes more democratic and modernises but we are left on the outside of an organisation that many of us would have stayed with had reform come pre-referendum.


----------



## rona

Citruspips said:


> In or out, I think the UK will probably do just fine. However, if we vote out what do you guys think will be the effect on Europe? I'm still wavering but really worry about this.
> 
> Two scenarios concern me. First, Brexit could trigger the beginning of the end of the European Union, with increasing feelings of nationalism and further break up possibly threatening the peace it was initially set up to protect. Secondly, Brexit gives Europe a good wake up call, it reforms, becomes more democratic and modernises but we are left on the outside of an organisation that many of us would have stayed with had reform come pre-referendum.


I'm sure it will fall apart. Not immediately but once they've seen if we succeed. The EU institution has just become a haven for career politicians pumping out legislation after legislation, most of it useless, while living off the backs of tax payers


----------



## stockwellcat.

Citruspips said:


> had reform come pre-referendum.


 Cameron asked this to be one of the deals he wanted when he went to Europe to get Britain a deal on the table. Europe refused this. Although they said there are some areas they need to reform, this happened after Cameron got the lame deal he got. The EU are in no rush to reform anything or make any concrete decisions on anything as they are happy the way things are. So reform won't be coming anytime soon in the EU.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I really think with all lies we are told from both side, that none of us know enough about the truth to make a fair judgement n the subject and we should never have been put in this situation in the first place. But after last nights debacle on ITV I'm still voting in IN.


----------



## Satori

Citruspips said:


> In or out, I think the UK will probably do just fine. However, if we vote out what do you guys think will be the effect on Europe? I'm still wavering but really worry about this.
> 
> Two scenarios concern me. First, Brexit could trigger the beginning of the end of the European Union, with increasing feelings of nationalism and further break up possibly threatening the peace it was initially set up to protect. Secondly, Brexit gives Europe a good wake up call, it reforms, becomes more democratic and modernises but we are left on the outside of an organisation that many of us would have stayed with had reform come pre-referendum.


Like @rona I think it would fall apart. I think that would be a good thing in the long run for all involved (apart from the parasites who suck off the money). I hope to see it. The union is a failed project, flapping like a fish out of water and it is time to put it out of it's misery.

I do accept that the risk of tension between European countries would be greater in the absence of the EU; it was envisioned to stop Germany invading its neighbours after all. However, the fact that there has been relative peace since the EU was formed proves nothing; correlation is not causation. There are other factors. Anyway, at the end of the day I'd rather be at war that be a prisoner in the worst case.

If we stay, on the other hand, I hope it leads to a radical shake up of UK government.....

The major problems we face with the EU are not caused by the EU per se. Germany doesn't have the same problems, for example with excessive population growth. Our problems are caused by weak mis-management both of the UK and of our relationship with the EU.


----------



## Mr Gizmo

I'm voting for out. 
This country was alive and kicking before the EU and will be if we leave it. 
What I want to know is who voted "other" in the poll and what is the other ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Yes and the EU is just one huge deceptive layer of the political system we could do without


Why deceptive?
What we need is obviously coordination between all EU countries and body that supervises that cooperation . Instead of dual agreements etc...it should be more efficient, true, but the way taxes are controlled or access to the frontier, police work, many other matters .
Spain wants tax foreigners on second homes? Cannot tax EU folk higher than Spanish...Same for IVA etc...
That is a very good thing. Employment rules are the same. For everyone from EU. 
Britain is an asset to EU and model in many important legal.matters.

I do not see how the idea " every man for himself" is better when we face overpopulation, climate change, terrorism etc...

So many things are just taken for granted!!!!


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Voting out doesn't mean that Farage, Boris or any other out supporter will ever run this country. This isn't a popularity contest


Of course it isn't a popularity contest. But with so much garbage being spouted (by BOTH sides) we have to decide who do we trust. Do we trust a bunch of self serving individuals who are known for their lying & scaremongering? Or individuals who have spent their entire careers representing the best interests of ordinary people & the environment? Green NGOs, renowned environmentalists, the trade unions, a consensus of independent economists all warning against brexit. Are there any well respected individuals & NGOs that are actually advocating leave? This is a genuine question as I'm am very concerned that I haven't seen any.



rona said:


> Yes and the EU is just one huge deceptive layer of the political system we could do without


Which strangely enough offers us protection from our own government lol



stockwellcat said:


> I did have a nice reply (not sarcastic or anything) but took me a while to type it and as I went to post it I got signed out so the post is now lost.
> 
> This referendum has no right or wrong result. We the general public are being asked to make a huge decision and either staying or leaving has consequences (Junker did say when Cameron got the deal he got which was a lame deal, that the deal being offered can be revoked at anytime eg the day after the referendum leaving the UK at the mercy of the foreign powerhouse called Europe. If we leave article 50 is then in place, so you see that everything has consequences).
> 
> I disagree with the figures flying around about what we spend on Europe everyday, both sides have lied about this.
> 
> Regarding Britain being slipt up if we leave Europe is tosh because Cameron is already doing this - making Manchester the power house of the North and other areas want to do the same. Northern Ireland already has police check points with the South of Ireland so this won't make any difference although I agree it may make tensions flare up in Ireland (which is worrying).
> 
> I will answer the rest of the points in another post to prevent being signed out again.





stockwellcat said:


> I want to make something clear. I live in an area of the UK that has been hit hard with the influx of migrants. I do not have a problem with genuine migrants eg fleeing wars or abuse and I want to reiterate *I am not racist what-so-ever actually far from it*. I feel sorry for the migrants fleeing war as they are in a bad desperate situation what I disagree with is the economic migrants who have no reason to flee anything are using the current migrant crisis to get were they want to be and on top of this terrorists are exploiting the entire migrant crisis to get where they want to be to carry out harm on people. Doesn't this concern anyone? Then on top of this the EU is expanding it's borders to the door step of Syria, we can't deal with the amount of people already flocking through Europe to the UK.
> 
> There is no right or wrong answer to the EU referendum debate. It has been left to us to research on and vote on.





stockwellcat said:


> Yes they may but why do they need to use the migrants fleeing Syria to get here or Europe? Why don't they go through the official channels?
> 
> Where does it stop? We are only an island on the door step of Europe (which is a continent), we have limited space Europe don't. Merkel realised she made a mistake saying Germany's door was open to the migrants as she has lost alot of support in her own country and has tried to make the rest of Europe clean up the mess she has made by accepting migrants in. Then there's the crime rate which has sored since the migrants entered Europe, do we want this over here?
> 
> I hope my replies have been calm and sensible?
> 
> I am not falling out with anyone over the referendum. Now I will get back to life beyond petforums.





stockwellcat said:


> I agree about the jobs being taken by migrants and sending money back to there families etc. I am biting my tongue over the issue I really am. I am totally in agreement with what you have said. It's like all of a sudden people who have lived in this country all there lives come second which is wrong. We are being hit hard as well with hard deep financial cuts so our country can survive.


Immigration is an issue, but it isnt the main issue yet immigants are being used as scapegoats for everything that is wrong with this country.

Owen Jones nails it in his latest piece -*It's a cruel deceit to blame all our problems on immigration - and it lets politicians off the hook. *

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...l-deceit-problems-immigration-brexiters-truth










I know I whatever I say wont change your mind, but can I ask you to please listen to this by a 95 year old war veteran? Its about Syrian refugees. http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ant-abandon-them-today-video?CMP=share_btn_tw



rona said:


> Andrea Leadsom in the debate on ITV. Brilliant...........


Would that be Andrea 'fracking is an opportunity not to be missed' Leadsom? The one who benefits from offshore banking? You don't think she supports brexit because she has vested interests to leave maybe?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Mr Gizmo said:


> I'm voting for out.
> This country was alive and kicking before the EU and will be if we leave it.
> What I want to know is who voted "other" in the poll and what is the other ?


You obviously realise that Gibraltar with frontier impassable will not be economically viable and most it's British population would have to leave for UK?

Or else surrender to Spain if wanted frontier open.

Falklands the same.

British expats in EU would have to come back..their pensions will go down with falling pound, no free health care...those Brits who work in EU would need permits, paid education for their kids, paid health care...they would be going back....

If from over 2 mln Brits abroad half have to come back?
Easily happens...that is truth , not speculations!


----------



## noushka05

FeelTheBern said:


> Definetly out. Because I have moderately right wing views, I have always liked Boris Johnson. I thought he was a good mayor of London and he makes very good points about why the UK is better on its own.


I find it fascinating that someone who supports Bernie Sanders likes a politician who stands for everything Bernie hates lol. And Boris was an absolutely appalling major http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/01/boris-johnson-mayor-never-was-london-vote


----------



## MoggyBaby

stockwellcat said:


> I hope this answer, answers your question?
> The NHS is being used as an example in this referendum by the out campaigners of where the money can be spent, the money would be used to improve this country overall if we left the EU and not spent in one particular area. *I know it sounds as if the out campaign is saying it will be spent on the NHS *but this is an example as we will be saving an extortionate amount of money not being in the EU.


If you listen to the hyperbole carefully, they have been very clever ansd have used the word 'COULD' at all times. £350m a week 'could' be spent on the NHS..... 'could' be spent on more doctors & nurses...., 'could' build new hospitals........

They are targetting the NHS because it is a very British institution and one we are very proud of. Seeing it falling apart is causing upset to a lot of people and so they will do what is needed to keep it going.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I am sorry you feel this way. I was only expressing what I perceived from the referendum. It should have been something that was tackled. I am so sorry my comments may have offended I did not intend them to.


They didn't offend at all; don't worry.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just watched the ITV debate from last night. The remain campaigners had nothing new to say except scaremonger. The sensible comments came from the Leave side. I am not being biased but the nonsense the remain campaigners came out with. We will stay in the EEC this won't change so we will still be trading with Europe. Peoples jobs will not change and people won't lose them this is nonsense (I am not including the MEPs as they will lose their jobs), jobs will be as secure as they are now. We will also still be able to travel to Europe. Nothing much is going to change except we take back control of our country being able to make our own laws instead of abiding to Europe's laws and sorry this subject is tetchy for some people control migration to our country which is on the verge of being out of control.

Amber Rudd reminded me of Maggie Thatcher sorry but that's who sprang to mind when she was speaking.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Why deceptive?
> What we need is obviously coordination between all EU countries and body that supervises that cooperation . Instead of dual agreements etc...it should be more efficient, true, but the way taxes are controlled or access to the frontier, police work, many other matters .
> Spain wants tax foreigners on second homes? Cannot tax EU folk higher than Spanish...Same for IVA etc...
> That is a very good thing. Employment rules are the same. For everyone from EU.
> Britain is an asset to EU and model in many important legal.matters.
> 
> I do not see how the idea " every man for himself" is better when we face overpopulation, climate change, terrorism etc...
> 
> So many things are just taken for granted!!!!


The word was taken from your quote


----------



## Mr Gizmo

cheekyscrip said:


> You obviously realise that Gibraltar with frontier impassable will not be economically viable and most it's British population would have to leave for UK?
> 
> Or else surrender to Spain if wanted frontier open.
> 
> Falklands the same.
> 
> British expats in EU would have to come back..their pensions will go down with falling pound, no free health care...those Brits who work in EU would need permits, paid education for their kids, paid health care...they would be going back....
> 
> If from over 2 mln Brits abroad half have to come back?
> Easily happens...that is truth , not speculations!


Just to go off topic slightly. 
Me and my OH should be coming over to Gibraltar in March for a long weekend as part of my 50th birthday bash.  
ETA:-We will be staying on The Sunborn,no expense spared,cos I'm worth it.


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> If you listen to the hyperbole carefully, they have been very clever ansd have used the word 'COULD' at all times. £350m a week 'could' be spent on the NHS..... 'could' be spent on more doctors & nurses...., 'could' build new hospitals........
> 
> They are targetting the NHS because it is a very British institution and one we are very proud of. Seeing it falling apart is causing upset to a lot of people and so they will do what is needed to keep it going.


I agree with everything you say MB - except your last sentence Going on the evidence & not their words I totally disagree they will keep the NHS going.. Much as it galls me to say it but I agree with John Major when he says - " The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster is with a hungry python" lol. The principles of the NHS are totally opposed to their ideology. Gove co wrote a book (with Hunt) on privatising our NHS. Johnson wanted to charge people to use it, IDS wanted a private insurance system. Farage, Grayling, Hannan & so on - pro privatisation the lot of em.

The brexit Tory mps are shamelessly trying to pretend the EU is the reason for under-funding and dismantling of our NHS not legislation THEY VOTED FOR!

. http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-leave-attacks-david-cameron-letter-nhs-staff

And here is clear evidence from UK Faculty of Public Health that remaining in EU is the best option for everyone's health and wellbeing >>. http://www.fph.org.uk/remaining_in_eu_best_option_for_everyone's_health_and_wellbeing…

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mr Gizmo said:


> Just to go off topic slightly.
> Me and my OH should be coming over to Gibraltar in March for a long weekend as part of my 50th birthday bash.
> ETA:-We will be staying on The Sunborn,no expense spared,cos I'm worth it.


Nice. 
Have a nice time.


----------



## MoggyBaby

noushka05 said:


> I agree with everything you say MB - except your last sentence Going on the evidence & not their words I totally disagree they will keep the NHS going.. Much as it galls me to say it but I agree with John Major when he says - " The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster is with a hungry python" lol. The principles of the NHS are totally opposed to their ideology. Gove co wrote a book (with Hunt) on privatising our NHS. Johnson wanted to charge people to use it, IDS wanted a private insurance system. Farage, Grayling, Hannan & so on - pro privatisation the lot of em.
> 
> The brexit Tory mps are shamelessly trying to pretend the EU is the reason for under-funding and dismantling of our NHS not legislation THEY VOTED FOR!
> 
> . http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-leave-attacks-david-cameron-letter-nhs-staff
> 
> And here is clear evidence from UK Faculty of Public Health that remaining in EU is the best option for everyone's health and wellbeing >>. http://www.fph.org.uk/remaining_in_eu_best_option_for_everyone's_health_and_wellbeing…
> 
> .


If Brexit ARE successful and get the majority on the 23rd, I forsee another General Election not long after that because the current set-up is so fragile right now, it will take very little for it to all fall apart.

Should this be the case, I don't think the Tories stand a farts chance in hell of staying in power.

That might be wishful thinking but that is how I am reading the situation at this time. Cameron is on the downward slope and what little credability he had has been shot to bits in the run-up to this referendum.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> The word was taken from your quote


Now you beng naughty..
Lol...
That is why we need systems that mutually check each other...
That is why we need both: EU and own government.
Look at Poland..ultra right already started purges in media and fiddling with Constitution.
EU responded ... People on the street do not realise how dangerous that is if governing party takes over independent judicial system and media!

Rona...vast majority who are experts on economy see Brexit as pound falling..and recession..unemployment.

If the dog is sick you take it to the vet...if most vets agree you believe them?

Or ask random people on the street and go with what they think...

Same here. If those who have knowledge of economy, social sciences, political science, history are in agreement?

My Russian friend, scientist and businessman ( do not ask what he does in Geneva), who supports Putin and free market is very happy for Brexit...he just said " we will buy it all"...

This is a big, greedy world out there...
You really think Farage and Johnston are the people who will stand up to it?

Johnston just wants his former buddie's job.
Farage is nothing but populist scoring low points .

Peddling similar ideology to what Trump is selling in USA.

Every state, country or bloc needs systems of mutual supervision or else democracy will.be paper and big money would just grow bigger and working masses would just have to work harder...

Those who just care about profit would not care about what happens to environment or to people as long as money is being made.

Johnston or Trump looking after health care? Pensions?

A bit like fox looking after chicken coup...

Farage in charge of women rights?
Didn't he send us to clean.behind the fridge?

What Britain once was canny come back. Lesson learnt from WWII was clear...it is important what happens in Europe.
Since then NATO , EEC and then EU were established.

This is unstable world and easily could be tipped into ecological disaster or another war...

Europe needs to find ways to cooperate and stand united.

Brexit is dangerous. For Britain. For Europe and the world balance.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> vast majority who are experts on economy see Brexit as pound falling..and recession..unemployment.


Yes and most agree it will be short term



cheekyscrip said:


> Look at Poland..ultra right already started purges in media and fiddling with Constitution.


But the majority of their own people voted for them. That's democracy, not a vocal minority or some patched together council to interfer with democracy



cheekyscrip said:


> You really think Farage and Johnston are the people who will stand up to it?


This is not about them. They probably will never have power



cheekyscrip said:


> Johnston just wants his former buddie's job.
> Farage is nothing but populist scoring low points .


This is not about them. They probably will never have power



cheekyscrip said:


> Every state, country or bloc needs systems of mutual supervision or else democracy will.be paper and big money would just grow bigger and working masses would just have to work harder...


See that's what I see the EU doing,running the show and the workers suffering



cheekyscrip said:


> Those who just care about profit would not care about what happens to environment or to people as long as money is being made.


And the fat cats in the EU care about anything but money? I don't think so..............



cheekyscrip said:


> Johnston or Trump looking after health care? Pensions?


Agreed Trump is a worry but this whole issue is not about either having power, it's completely different issue



cheekyscrip said:


> Farage in charge of women rights?
> Didn't he send us to clean.behind the fridge?


Not about him...........he's so unlikely to gain power that it's not even worth thinking about



cheekyscrip said:


> Europe needs to find ways to cooperate and stand united.


I agree but it's made a balls up so far and won't admit it. That's the crux for me. Just too many egos for it to ever work


----------



## MoggyBaby

rona said:


> Yes and most agree it will be short term
> But the majority of their own people voted for them. That's democracy, not a vocal minority or some patched together council to interfer with democracy
> This is not about them. They probably will never have power
> This is not about them. They probably will never have power
> See that's what I see the EU doing,running the show and the workers suffering
> And the fat cats in the EU care about anything but money? I don't think so..............
> Agreed Trump is a worry but this whole issue is not about either having power, it's completely different issue
> Not about him...........he's so unlikely to gain power that it's not even worth thinking about
> I agree but it's made a balls up so far and won't admit it. That's the crux for me. Just too many egos for it to ever work


Dammit! We NEED a rep button!!!

Have a green blobbie on me love!!


----------



## FeelTheBern

noushka05 said:


> I find it fascinating that someone who supports Bernie Sanders likes a politician who stands for everything Bernie hates lol. And Boris was an absolutely appalling major http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/01/boris-johnson-mayor-never-was-london-vote


Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I have my reasons for liking both politicians. I think that Bernie would be a good president because he has pledged to make healthcare cheaper and he stands up for LBGT rights. I also think Boris makes good points about the EU and other issues. This is just my opinion and I am entitled to it. You want to stay in the EU, that is your opinion and I respect it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

@rona ...you think It will be short term recession , because Boris says so?

No one else ?

It is not what experts predict at all.
From what economists say It will affect my children....

Yes, EU has to.get better, so lets start working on it...

If you forgot the lesson of WWII..

NATO, EEC were created by those who learned from it. EU is the dream born by that horror.

EU making sure governments are not becoming too totalitarian, that rights and democracy are preserved and to sort out problems between members.

Governments are to.make sure EU does it job fairly...

It is like having residents' committee in your village.

Annoying when stops you from doing whatever, but very useful if can stop your annoying neighbours .


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Yes and most agree it will be short term
> 
> *But the majority of their own people voted for them. That's democracy, not a vocal minority or some patched together council to interfer with democracy*
> 
> This is not about them. They probably will never have power
> 
> This is not about them. They probably will never have power
> 
> See that's what I see the EU doing,running the show and the workers suffering
> 
> And the fat cats in the EU care about anything but money? I don't think so..............
> 
> Agreed Trump is a worry but this whole issue is not about either having power, it's completely different issue
> 
> Not about him...........he's so unlikely to gain power that it's not even worth thinking about
> 
> I agree but it's made a balls up so far and won't admit it. That's the crux for me. Just too many egos for it to ever work


The rise of the far right is the death of democracy Rona. Have we learned nothing from history?



FeelTheBern said:


> Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I have my reasons for liking both politicians. I think that Bernie would be a good president because he has pledged to make healthcare cheaper and he stands up for LBGT rights. I also think Boris makes good points about the EU and other issues. This is just my opinion and I am entitled to it. You want to stay in the EU, that is your opinion and I respect it.


Of course you're entitled to your opinion It just puzzled me. Boris doesn't believe in free health care & he is a bigot (& a xenophobe.) AND a liar. Not much different to Trump really lol


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> @rona ...you think It will be short term recession , because Boris says so?
> 
> No one else ?
> 
> It is not what experts predict at all.
> From what economists say It will affect my children....
> 
> Yes, EU has to.get better, so lets start working on it...
> 
> If you forgot the lesson of WWII..
> 
> NATO, EEC were created by those who learned from it. EU is the dream born by that horror.
> 
> EU making sure governments are not becoming too totalitarian, that rights and democracy are preserved and to sort out problems between members.
> 
> Governments are to.make sure EU does it job fairly...
> 
> It is like having residents' committee in your village.
> 
> Annoying when stops you from doing whatever, but very useful if can stop your annoying neighbours .


Then it's ok for the EU to be totalitarian?

Can't you see that?

I can't understand why you can't see that 

If they are there to sort out problems between members, they aren't doing a very good job are they? They seem to be creating more and more tension

What's that saying......."absolute power corrupts absolutely"


----------



## Jonescat

The company I work for lost its first significant order today because the French company placing it thinks that Brexit will win.....


----------



## rona

Jonescat said:


> The company I work for lost its first significant order today because the French company placing it thinks that Brexit will win.....


Sorry to hear that. Do they trade with EU countries a lot?


----------



## Jonescat

Yes. We just have to hope that they hold their nerve at least until we know the result.


----------



## Lilylass

I wish it would hurry up and be over with - it's the same as with the referendum was - having this long, drawn out uncertainty is very bad for the economy


----------



## Satori

MoggyBaby said:


> If Brexit ARE successful and get the majority on the 23rd, I forsee another General Election not long after that because the current set-up is so fragile right now, it will take very little for it to all fall apart.
> 
> Should this be the case, I don't think the Tories stand a farts chance in hell of staying in power.
> 
> That might be wishful thinking but that is how I am reading the situation at this time. Cameron is on the downward slope and what little credability he had has been shot to bits in the run-up to this referendum.


In or out, Cameron can never be an effective leader again. He has lost the support of half of his party, most of the country and all of Europe. He is truly running on empty. A principled man would stand down but I expect he will not.

If we vote out there will certainly be a no confidence motion. Cameron will threaten a general election to try and hold power. I don't know who will back down first but the drama will be riveting; reason enough to vote leave I'd say for the best tele in years.


----------



## havoc

My son has just moved his money out of a FTSE tracker and into a European fund while the uncertainty persists. It's all very well wanting businesses and individuals to hold their nerve but when it's everything you have you can't take the risk.


----------



## FeelTheBern

noushka05 said:


> The rise of the far right is the death of democracy Rona. Have we learned nothing from history?
> 
> Of course you're entitled to your opinion It just puzzled me. Boris doesn't believe in free health care & he is a bigot (& a xenophobe.) AND a liar. Not much different to Trump really lol


America needs cheaper healthcare. America needs Bernie Sanders.
However, the results of the recent primaries have shown that a Sanders win is impossible but he refuses to drop out of the presidential race.


----------



## havoc

_Boris doesn't believe in free health care & he is a bigot (& a xenophobe._
Politicians say what they believe people want to hear. He must feel he has an audience.


----------



## Zaros

I voted in simply because I am in Europe. I want to be a good European. Unlike Hitler or Wagner, who were good nationals but very bad Europeans.


----------



## Satori

havoc said:


> My son has just moved his money out of a FTSE tracker and into a European fund while the uncertainty persists. It's all very well wanting businesses and individuals to hold their nerve but when it's everything you have you can't take the risk.


I don't get that play. The Euro will likely weaken more than the pound in the event of a Brexit vote so where's the hedge in that? I sold all of my Euros last year but still hold USD and CHF for the long term and GBP for living on. Most equities NYSE therefore USD dollar denominated and for me the mid-term play continues to be yield. The short term play this year has been swing trading the cable (or oil if you have the nerve) and it will be for the next month or two. Money for nothing.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Just watched the ITV debate from last night. *The remain campaigners had nothing new to say except scaremonger. The sensible comments came from the Leave side. *I am not being biased but the nonsense the remain campaigners came out with. We will stay in the EEC this won't change so we will still be trading with Europe. Peoples jobs will not change and people won't lose them this is nonsense (I am not including the MEPs as they will lose their jobs), jobs will be as secure as they are now. We will also still be able to travel to Europe. Nothing much is going to change except we take back control of our country being able to make our own laws instead of abiding to Europe's laws and sorry this subject is tetchy for some people control migration to our country which is on the verge of being out of control.
> 
> Amber Rudd reminded me of Maggie Thatcher sorry but that's who sprang to mind when she was speaking.


*I think you were watching a different programme to me, I thought they were as bad as each, but Boris, well wards fail me.*


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> . We will stay in the EEC this won't change so we will still be trading with Europe. Peoples jobs will not change and people won't lose them this is nonsense (I am not including the MEPs as they will lose their jobs), jobs will be as secure as they are now.


Sorry, but I'm confused. As I understand it the leave campaign want out of the entire organisation unless I've missed something. One of the conditions of the EEA I think you might be referring to is the free movement of citizens as in Norway.


----------



## havoc

_The remain campaigners had nothing new to say_
What's new to say about staying in - we know what being in entails. Right from the start the 'sexy' arguments were always going to be about leaving because you can make any claim you like and it can't be proved right or wrong until afterwards.


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> _The remain campaigners had nothing new to say_
> What's new to say about staying in - we know what being in entails. Right from the start the 'sexy' arguments were always going to be about leaving because you can make any claim you like and it can't be proved right or wrong until afterwards.


Did you see the debate?


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is disgusting behaviour http://news.sky.com/story/1710114/tear-gas-fired-as-england-fans-clash-with-police and I wouldn't blame the French if English football fans are banned from going to France ever again after this.

Sorry for taking the thread off topic.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Regarding the debate on the Referendum I am giving myself a break from the topic until I vote on the 23rd June.

Most people know which way they are voting those that don't I hope you find the answers to the questions you are seeking answers for.


----------



## Citruspips

Well I've just watched last nights debate more confused than ever  Although I did think the three outies came across better than the innies who I thought were patronising and scripted.



havoc said:


> My son has just moved his money out of a FTSE tracker and into a European fund while the uncertainty persists. It's all very well wanting businesses and individuals to hold their nerve but when it's everything you have you can't take the risk.


That trade seems like jumping from the frying pan to the fire. I hedged with some big FTSE gold miners which has worked out well so far, although that might have more to do with the USA than BREXIT.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

I am actually more interested in what the rest of Europe thinks of the EU than the information and misinformation being peddled in this country which is quite simply propaganda for which ever vote they seek. And I am reading more and more that the UK rather than being isolationist, is actually being viewed as making a stand. And that other countries are waiting to see what happens before making moves themselves. The domino effect. I have already posted a link re the general dissatisfaction in Europe in regard to the EU. Sweden have actually shown this in a poll themselves.

I was also reading that the EU have to threaten to give Britain a bad deal if they leave to prevent this ‘domino effect,’ where more countries, most likely the Nordic countries would reconsider their EU membership.

And actually the more I think about it surely it is the EU that is being isolationist. There's a big world out there.

However, I did laugh at the comment I read that Juncker is quite possibly wishing that he had given David Cameron the deal that he wanted as in the scheme of things the demands were modest but without such a deal, Cameron was humiliated and the rest as they say, is history ..... or it will be after June 23rd lol 

Who knows. 


J


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> This is disgusting behaviour http://news.sky.com/story/1710114/tear-gas-fired-as-england-fans-clash-with-police and I wouldn't blame the French if English football fans are banned from going to France ever again after this.
> 
> *Sorry for taking the thread off topic*.


Don't worry about that.............

I watched in horror as well, I dread to think what will happen if we loose tonight,


----------



## Guest

I keep my fingers crossed for the Brits to stay in. Britain has gained so much by being part of EU and now some suggest that let´s leave it, all will be better. Bullocks. People will suffer, companies will win, as there will be able to do just about anything they want. In real life EU has made life better for us little people. 

Politicians can really say anything people want to hear, as long as they can blame someone else for their or incompetence or immoral actions. I wonder what they´ll blame, when their promises won´t come true, if you leave EU.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MrsZee said:


> I keep my fingers crossed for the Brits to stay in. Britain has gained so much by being part of EU and now some suggest that let´s leave it, all will be better. Bullocks. People will suffer, companies will win, as there will be able to do just about anything they want. In real life EU has made life better for us little people.
> 
> Politicians can really say anything people want to hear, as long as they can blame someone else for their or incompetence or immoral actions. I wonder what they´ll blame, when their promises won´t come true, if you leave EU.


Well said Mrs Zee,

The vote out campaign are just playing on peoples insecurities and fears of the EU which is something I just don't understand why myself.

And for Boris there's only one thing on his mind and that's moving into No.10........... god help us if he does.


----------



## jon.bda

Completely undecided myself if i'm honest. Was in town earlier doing the bits and bobs of shopping and there was a 'Leave' campaign stall set up in the middle of town on the main pedestrian street...I have to say it looked rather busy...


----------



## rona

https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out

Apparently I'm 69% out, that's less than I thought

1. Democracy 75% Out
2. Society 69% Out
3. Identity 69% Out
4. Economy 62% Out

I think it's rather simplistic


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out
> 
> Apparently I'm 69% out, that's less than I thought
> 
> 1. Democracy 75% Out
> 2. Society 69% Out
> 3. Identity 69% Out
> 4. Economy 62% Out
> 
> I think it's rather simplistic


I took the test
Democracy 100% 
Identity 100% 
Society 100% 
Economy 67% 

92% Out


----------



## stockwellcat.

If the football fans behaviour in France was the deciding factor of Britain being allowed to stay in Europe (Europe voting us to stay or leave) we would definitely be kicked out of Europe. There behaviour is appalling and shameful.


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding the debate on the Referendum I am giving myself a break from the topic until I vote on the 23rd June.
> 
> Most people know which way they are voting those that don't I hope you find the answers to the questions you are seeking answers for.


I know I said this last night but my two comments above where just passing comments on my way down the other end of petforums


----------



## MoggyBaby

stockwellcat said:


> I took the test
> Democracy 100%
> Identity 100%
> Society 100%
> Economy 67%
> 
> 92% Out


91% out here!!! 

And for the record - to those who think I am being 'swayed' by the Brexit campaign - I was an 'Outie' long before the politicians began their spin & scaremongering. Quite a few of us are capable of making the decision on our own merits and don't need Boris et al telling us where to put our cross on the 23rd.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just as I thought IN

1. Identity 83% In
2. Economy 75% In
3. Democracy 75% In
4. Society 67% In


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> If the football fans behaviour in France was the deciding factor of Britain being allowed to stay in Europe (Europe voting us to stay or leave) we would definitely be kicked out of Europe. There behaviour is appalling and shameful.


Yes it's crazy, the way our fans are behaving, last night the Welsh and Slovakia fans were partying together no trouble at all.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Yes it's crazy, the way our fans are behaving, last night the Welsh and Slovakia fans were partying together no trouble at all.


Apparently the English and Russian fans are getting on fine. A reporter said he was sitting having a coffee when a load of English fans ran past, they were being followed by a gang dressed in black with knives, then to the front the police threw teargas, trapping them in the middle ..............................


----------



## cheekyscrip

Pound fell sharply overnight...


----------



## CuddleMonster

I took the test - 69% out! As Rona says, it is quite simplistic - I hope no one uses this to make up their minds!!!!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

CuddleMonster said:


> I took the test - 69% out! As Rona says, it is quite simplistic - I hope no one uses this to make up their minds!!!!


Well its better than a pin or tossing a coin maybe. I thought it might give me some idea but it got me as 52% in so hasn't helped at all! For the first time in my adult life I am abstaining from voting, I always vote even for the bloody police commissioner but won`t be on this referendum. I think both sides have valid arguments I also think both sides talk a lot of old bull. I have been unable to come to any decision on what I feel would be the right way to vote and to be honest I don`t care overly much. Will be very glad when it is over.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Pound fell sharply overnight...


Yaay. Now for the tough decision. Audi R8 V10+ or Porsche 911 Turbo S ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Yaay. Now for the tough decision. Audi R8 V10+ or Porsche 911 Turbo S ?


For us means cancelled holidays. Food comes first.

If pound carries on falling this will in itself solve the problem of those pesky foreign nurses and builders....they will go to work elsewhere..yay!!!!
As soon as pound is below euro...and it will not be long.

The effect of falling pound: The poorer you ate the more it would hit you.
Surely Johnson has stashed enough...

The catastrophe is that those who vote in majority have no clue about economy.

EU would make sure that Britain has spectacular recession so no other country follows...

And if it is bad enough Scots may want to go solo and join EU...

And Johnson the new PM...
As he is the one who made promises he has to deliver.
And for everyone' s sake hope he does.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

cheekyscrip said:


> EU would make sure that Britain has spectacular recession so no other country follows...


Absolutely. I have read that and if that isn't holding a country to ransom I don't know what is. Toe the line or we'll break you in another words. And that's a reason to stay? The fact is the EU can do that every time the UK or in fact *any* country tries to take a stand over *any* issue. It's called a threat.

J


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Absolutely. I have read that and if that isn't holding a country to ransom I don't know what is. Toe the line or we'll break you in another words. And that's a reason to stay? The fact is the EU can do that every time the UK or in fact *any* country tries to take a stand over *any* issue. It's called a threat.
> 
> J


Not that I do not see you point. 
But lets say it is a warning?

If I tell you that according to the lastest "Economist" Brexit would lead to recession and Johnson has no plan is it a threat or a warning?

Yes..Mama Merkel is annoying.

Very.

But if she is right?

Johnson laughs at the same experts Tories always revered so much.

But if your cat is sick you trust the vet?
Or think they just want you to pay the bill?

I see very well EU shortcomings.
But still recession is not a good solution for Britain.

Especially for workers...


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> EU would make sure that Britain has spectacular recession so no other country follows...


True democracy eh?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> True democracy eh?


Exactly!!!

True democracy is that we can make the choice..and face the music..
It is all up to us.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Pound fell sharply overnight...


Yep that's the financial markets for you. Up and down, up and down.... The uncertainty of a referendum has this effect.

Similar things can happen around general elections or acts of terrorism for example.


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> EU would make sure that Britain has spectacular recession so no other country follows...


Can you provide a link or is this media blowing things up?

http://mobil.stern.de/panorama/scha...dons-wuerde--jeden-hart-treffen--6893920.html

Here Schäuble simply says the the UK will not be treated as anyone special and will get no special treatment for having previously been an eu member. Leave, and you leave and sever ties. The UK therefore will be treated the same as China, India, Russia, or Brazil, ie no special deal. Comments have been to reassure European partners as any special deal with the UK will affect a lot of people. Unfortunately, no doubt, it is likely to have a severe knock on effect to UK economy on leaving and it certainly affects a lot of the "we'll make a deal" propaganda from the leave campaign. Media have naturally blown up has it does make a brilliant headline. "EU threatens and will bully UK if they leave".


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Can you provide a link or is this media blowing things up?
> 
> http://mobil.stern.de/panorama/scha...dons-wuerde--jeden-hart-treffen--6893920.html
> 
> Here Schäuble simply says the the UK will not be treated as anyone special and will get no special treatment for having previously been an eu member. Leave, and you leave and sever ties. The UK therefore will be treated the same as China, India, Russia, or Brazil, ie no special deal. Comments have been to reassure European partners as any special deal with the UK will affect a lot of people. Unfortunately, no doubt, it is likely to have a severe knock on effect to UK economy on leaving and it certainly affects a lot of the "we'll make a deal" propaganda from the leave campaign. Media have naturally blown up has it does make a brilliant headline. "EU threatens and will bully UK if they leave".


I say whether a threat or a warning we will be no favour of the month and Mama Merkel will " I told you so..."..obviously euro will fall too if we leave...so you understand loved we would be not!

Wish it was over.

Just the worry of it ..

Ultra Tories promising they would take care of NHS...and workers' right...


----------



## scatchy

Jackie C said:


> Yes, I saw this a few days ago, it's excellent!


sorry but I think it is a very bad sketch- is this sketch seriously suggesting that without the the EU Britain would have racial/sex discrimination, slavery, no right to a fair trial, etc- that's laughable. we had all this before the EU.


----------



## diefenbaker

rona said:


> True democracy eh?


Yes if the Brexit happens. The recession will happen from effects such as a reduction in Foreign Direct Investment. For example companies such as Nissan are less likely to choose the UK as a manufacturing base for their European operations because the BrExit will make it more expensive for them to operate here. Of course I don't know for certain this would happen but the words that come out of the Nissan CEO's mouth suggest it could.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> True democracy eh?


Another point of view. Who is the EU responsible for if the UK leaves? It's own people or the people who have turned their backs on the rest of the population of the EU, stated we don't care, we want nothing to do with you and hope you fail? Can you explain what democracy has to do with protecting the EU's interest in that situation?


----------



## Goblin

diefenbaker said:


> Yes if the Brexit happens. The recession will happen from effects such as a reduction in Foreign Direct Investment. For example companies such as Nissan are less likely to choose the UK as a manufacturing base for their European operations because the BrExit will make it more expensive for them to operate here. Of course I don't know for certain this would happen but the words that come out of the Nissan CEO's mouth suggest it could.


Swiss banks will move. Most likely moving to Dublin, Frankfurt or Paris. Main reason to be in UK is to be in EU for regulatory reasons. Citibank, Goldman Sachs, Deutsch Bank, HSBC have all stated at least some "functions" will have to move on BREXIT. Citibank have already moved some to Dublin. Likely other banks will do the same thing to be "in the EU market" and to conform to EU regulation. UK and EU regulations may get a status of being equivalent. Dependent on negotiations.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Swiss banks will move. Most likely moving to Dublin, Frankfurt or Paris. Main reason to be in UK is to be in EU for regulatory reasons. Citibank, Goldman Sachs, Deutsch Bank, HSBC have all stated at least some "functions" will have to move on BREXIT. Citibank have already moved some to Dublin. Likely other banks will do the same thing to be "in the EU market" and to conform to EU regulation. UK and EU regulations may get a status of being equivalent. Dependent on negotiations.


The ability of London to passport financial services will very likely be hit.



> "I would be very tough [on this point]," said Sylvie Goulard, a French MEP who sits on the committee for economic and monetary affairs. "I see no reason to give passporting to a country that decides in a sovereign way to leave the EU… The day the U.K. leaves … you cannot consider the British supervising authority as an authority of the EU."


That is bound to encourage firms to relocate at least some of their operations.

The trouble is, ask the man or woman in the street what that means for the UK economy - or what it means, full stop - and the majority wouldn't have a clue. Another reason why we should never be having this referendum.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Another point of view. Who is the EU responsible for if the UK leaves? It's own people or the people who have turned their backs on the rest of the population of the EU, stated we don't care, we want nothing to do with you and hope you fail? Can you explain what democracy has to do with protecting the EU's interest in that situation?


Looking after your own by threatening others is never a good move


----------



## Goblin

Rona, if you actually read what has been said in it's original rather than that twisted by media, threats were not part of it. What was said was, either you follow the rules and gain the benefits or you don't follow the rules and forsake the benefits. Now how is that reality unjustified?


----------



## diefenbaker

rona said:


> Looking after your own by threatening others is never a good move


Straw man.


----------



## kimthecat

About immigration and refugees, I'm proud we have traditionally taken in refugees and we need immigrants as we are short of nurses and teachers for example but as has already been mentioned , when we have too many people coming in a short time it puts tremendous pressure on resources. It's shame it's seen as racist to be concerned. 

I've mentioned before that I'm on the outskirts of West London ,which was once the County of Middlesex, this once sleepy suburb with tiny estate roads is now a town, the last few years we have been under tremendous pressure , for example all the primary schools have had hundreds of extra places added and now they are having to build up the senior schools , a whole new school is being built on the playing fields of another school . Houses are being knocked down and flats built , some three stories high. Pubs and petrol garages are being knocked down to build flats. Green belt is bring eroded on. 

People I know are leaving in droves and not just white people who "don't want to be the stranger" . People just can't stand the pressure. The Asian family who run the newsagent upped and left, they'd been there for 15 years and they said its not the same any more, there's little sense of belonging or community. I saw their kids grow up and granny and grandad used to chat in the shop and they used to make a fuss of my old dog Dibby . It was part of my day to pop down the shops for a paper , I dont bother now . I get fed up with making the effort to be friendly and then people move on . I know life has changed and we are more busy nowadays but not enough to be the main cause of what is happening here.

I know you must think , well its London what do you expect . I used to think that about suburbs nearer to Central London and gasp at their houses prices but now its happening here and soon it will be where you live. you think it won't but it will one day.


----------



## stockwellcat.

11 Days to go.

12 Days and it will all be over.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I'm 77% out according to that questionnaire - which is probably pretty fair compared to how I'm feeling about the whole thing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The whole referendum has been drawn out to long and the climax too it all has as well. 

The campaign leaders In and Out must love to hear the sound of themselves sounding like a stuck record or CD on repeat.


----------



## Goblin

Kimthecat, nothing you have talked about deals with the issues of BREXIT and the EU does it? Certainly not directly with immigration unless I have missed something. Changes you have mentioned would happen in or out of the EU. Part of being part of "London" and expansion. Plenty of places in the UK would love to have the investment and the jobs to support growth "nearby".

Long, worth a read. Not my words and don't know the original author:



> Last year, 270,000 EU citizens immigrated to the UK, and 85,000 returned to the EU. So EU net migration was around 185,000 (1). Additionally, a similar number came from outside the EU, so 330,000 in total.
> 
> That was the highest ever level of EU migration - going all the way back to when we joined the EEC in 1975. Indeed during the 1980s the trend was the other way - British workers moved overseas, particularly to Germany, as their economy was doing better than ours at that time. You might remember the TV show 'Auf Wiedersehen Pet'. Currently our economy is doing better than many European ones so more people are coming than going. But there's no reason to think that will always be the case.
> 
> The Leave campaign claim that EU migration is putting unsustainable pressure on our public services, worsening the housing crisis, putting pressure on the NHS, on schools and on our roads. Their latest TV broadcast for instance shows a sick older lady receiving NHS treatment much faster in an imaginary hospital if we leave the EU. Are they right?
> 
> Imagine that we left the EU and banned EU immigration completely. Nobody else allowed - no footballers, no entertainers, no chefs, no businessmen, no nurses, no cleaners, nobody. And we kept that door shut for ten years. And for comparison let's say that we stayed in the EU and immigration continues at this year's record level (the highest ever) for the next ten years. How would that impact our population and our public services?
> 
> In terms of population, we'd end up with 1.85m fewer people living in our country after the 10 years. That sounds like a lot of people, which it is. But we're a big country - 64.6m in total at the moment (2). So even under these very extreme assumptions the difference is only 2.8%. Less than 1 in 35.
> 
> Would you notice the difference if there were 34 instead of 35 people in your doctors' waiting room? If there were 34 instead of 35 cars ahead of you in the traffic jam? Would your child's education suffer in a class of 35 instead of 34? I doubt it.
> 
> And don't forget that we're making crazily unrealistic assumptions about how much we could reduce immigration if we left the EU. Because even the most ardent Leave campaigners don't say that we should stop immigration altogether. They usually talk of using a points system to reach the government's net target of 100,000 per year. So the difference in population after 10 years wouldn't be anything like as much as 1 in 35.
> 
> Let's say we could hit the net target of 100,000 - half from the EU and half from non-EU countries for the sake of argument. In that case, the difference in population after 10 years would be 1.35m or 1 in 49.
> 
> And don't forget that we're also making another very aggressive assumption - that migration will continue at the same level as last year, our highest ever. It would be more realistic to take the average of the last five years migration (3). If we do that, then the difference in our population after ten years would be only 790,000 or 1 in 82.
> 
> 1 in 82.
> 
> I can't tell the difference between a crowd of 81 and 82 people (even when they were my own wedding guests!). Can you?
> 
> So here's the thing: however you feel about EU immigration, even under extreme assumptions the impact on our overall population just isn't very large.
> 
> Now at this point some of you might be thinking - "This can't be right - step outside and look with your own eyes! Britain is full of foreigners! The place I grew up is like another country! How can you claim that EU immigration is not significant?".
> 
> I live in inner London so I can sense where you might be coming from. A few things to bear in mind:
> 
> The overwhelming majority of immigration to the UK over the last 40 years has been from outside the EU (3). However you feel about that, it has nothing to do with our EU membership;
> Whether you like it or not, Britain has been a multicultural country for several generations at least. You can't tell whether somebody is an immigrant just by looking at them (sorry if this is an obvious point). You might hazard a guess at their ethnicity or race but that's a very different thing;
> Historically, immigrants have clustered in particular areas of the country, so your neighbourhood may not be representative of the country at large;
> British people from all backgrounds have become much more cosmopolitan in their tastes over the last 40 years. We drink in pubs much less, but enjoy wine at home or go to restaurants and cafes a lot more. Instead of just eating British food, we enjoy flavours from all over the world. So the retail and commercial landscape of our country has changed - to reflect our changing tastes, not just because of new arrivals.
> 
> "But wait! What when Turkey, Montenegro and Albania join the EU? We'll be swamped!"
> 
> No we won't.
> 
> Mainly because Turkey and Albania are nowhere near being eligible to join the EU, and Montenegro is tiny. Also don't forget there are 27 other countries in the EU to choose from if residents of those countries did fancy a change of scene.
> 
> And even if in the distant future many other countries did join and we did find ourselves swamped, Britain could leave. We're free to leave the EU whenever we want. But if we leave and then want to rejoin, we'd need the consent of all 27 other member states. Better to stay and keep our options open than leave in fear of something that is very unlikely to happen.
> 
> And so far we've also not factored in the contribution that immigrants make to our country, and specifically our public finances. EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they use in public services, as they are much more likely to be of working age than the general population (4). So if we used that extra tax revenue to hire more doctors, build more schools, invest in transport and so on, we'd actually have better public services than we would without any EU immigration.
> 
> It takes time to hire and train teachers and doctors, build schools and roads, and so forth. So it's true that a sudden influx of people into an area can put short-term pressure on services. But the fundamental reason for the issues we identified at the start - NHS pressure, oversubscribed schools, congested roads, the housing crisis - is not EU immigration.
> 
> We are now six years into a government austerity programme to attempt to balance the books. So it's not surprising that our public services are feeling the pinch.
> 
> An ageing population and new advances in medicine put particular strain on the NHS.
> 
> For the last thirty years, we have failed by a wide margin to build enough houses in the UK. Interest rates have been at an 'emergency' rate of 0.5% for the last seven years. That is why house prices are so high.
> 
> And this story of decades of underinvestment is repeated for our roads and railways too.
> 
> All of these issues are home-grown. And all of those policy areas are entirely within the control of our government in Westminster. They have nothing to do with the EU and are not the fault of EU migrants.
> 
> Finally, there's been plenty of academic research into this issue, including a summary paper just published by the London School of Economics (5).
> 
> The research shows, contrary to many tabloid headlines, that
> 
> 
> Immigrants do not take a disproportionate share of jobs created by our economy;
> There is no evidence of an overall negative impact of immigration on wages;
> There is no evidence that EU migrants affect the labour market performance of native-born workers (i.e. make it harder for native-born workers to get promoted, get a pay rise, etc)
> Now unlike BREXIT'ers.. some references:
> (1) https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/
> (2) https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates
> (3) http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics/#create-graph
> (4) http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ce-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us
> (5) http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/ea019.pdf


Most people will not read but to sum up. Problems brexit point to being fault of immigration aren't at the EU level, they are with the UK government level including with "austerity". Even if immigration held for 10 years at the current level we still wouldn't really be inundated and overstretched and numbers are record breaking at the moment. No evidence immigrants take a disproportionate share of jobs, no evidence they reduce wages and no evidence that they affect the market performance of native born worker. They do contribute more in taxes than they use in public services. The fear mongering from the leave campaign with turkey etc is simply that, fear. The countries are nowhere near ready to be accepted into the EU.

Personal feeling, UK is not the only country where the issue of immigrants is being raised. Surely we can work together to solve the problems, maybe even solve the base problems the west were responsible for which caused a lot of displaced people in the first place.


----------



## MoggyBaby

kimthecat said:


> About immigration and refugees, I'm proud we have traditionally taken in refugees and we need immigrants as we are short of nurses and teachers for example but as has already been mentioned , when we have too many people coming in a short time it puts tremendous pressure on resources. It's shame it's seen as racist to be concerned.
> 
> I've mentioned before that I'm on the outskirts of West London ,which was once the County of Middlesex, this once sleepy suburb with tiny estate roads is now a town, the last few years we have been under tremendous pressure , for example all the primary schools have had hundreds of extra places added and now they are having to build up the senior schools , a whole new school is being built on the playing fields of another school . Houses are being knocked down and flats built , some three stories high. Pubs and petrol garages are being knocked down to build flats. Green belt is bring eroded on.
> <snip>
> 
> I know you must think , well its London what do you expect . I used to think that about suburbs nearer to Central London and gasp at their houses prices but now its happening here and soon it will be where you live. you think it won't but it will one day.


When I moved into Moggy Towers 13 yrs ago, it was a quiet street and was showing signs of becoming a little up market - not a lot but the houses were reasonably priced for young house buyers to get on the ladder. These were people who worked and were committed to improving the properties. Then 'Buy-to-Let' went through the roof and all the developers bought up the reasonably priced houses and let them out to anyone. We now have a street where less than 50% have English as their first language and too many who don't speak English at all.

The town itself is changing too - the shops that are closing down are springing back up as Eastern European cafes and supermarkets. There have been times when I've popped into town and not heard any English being spoken by passers-by.  I am NOT racist - my immediate neighbours are very very nice although we cannot have a conversation because I don't speak their language and they don't speak mine.

In the street parallel to mine, there is a large mosque which they are planning to extend. Again, I am not racist, and the few Muslims I know are very nice but I cannot even begin to describe how intimidating it felt the morning I passed this mosque a few minutes after prayers had ended when the large, male, population was leaving and walking along the middle of the road en-masse - all around my car. I received many looks of disgust and what felt like hatred due to being a white woman, driving a car with her face and head uncovered.

I don't object to other nationalities coming to live & work in the UK but I do object to the numbers being so vast that I now feel like a stranger living here.

And don't even START me on the mass housing development around here........


----------



## Lurcherlad

On the Turkey issue....

They may not be ready to join for several years, but this is probably our only opportunity to get out before they do 

This is probably our only opportunity to get out - period.


----------



## Goblin

Lurcherlad said:


> On the Turkey issue....
> 
> They may not be ready to join for several years, but this is probably our only opportunity to get out before they do
> 
> This is probably our only opportunity to get out - period.


Shame that the UK would have to agree to Turkey membership. Takes all members to agree to a new member.

Here's a funny video from one of the main members of the Leave campaign:



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=977419255670243


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Shame that the UK would have to agree to Turkey membership. Takes all members to agree to a new member.


Not necessarily true, they can and do over rule countries that refuse to vote the way they want things to go. We get over ruled most of the time in the EU parliament. They can go for a majority vote.

I suggest watching this:
Paxman in Brussels Who Really Rules Us.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> We will also still be able to travel to Europe.


@stockwellcat: I read that about 15% of the population is (allegedly) worried that if we leave, they will no longer be able to holiday in Europe ... Benidorm mentality?


----------



## Goblin

Can you show me where is says about new membership, must have missed it? Maastrict treaty states each individual member state and the european parliament must agree to a new member. It is not part of normal EU process. Interesting that normal process: the european commision (unelected) produces proposals which only parliament (elected) and/or the council (elected governments) can actually agree to. The parliament or council can refuse them or amend them. So nothing decided and agreed to by unelected bureaucrats which is enforceable, takes people elected to decide that.

You don't get "Overuled" in democracy. EU parliament is democratic. Bit like saying the labour is currently always overuled in westminster. Indeed there are times the UK uses it's powers to stop changes. One example, the lifting of the lesser duty rule for example which, if lifted, could of allowed steel to be protected at the european level (tariffs imposed on chinese steel imports). The UK was seen being the leader of the group which stopped this happening. No idea what other effects it would have had.


----------



## Goblin

Here's a link to the english translation to the interview where Schaüble threatens the UK according to UK press:

http://www.spiegel.de/international...h-wolfgang-schaeuble-on-brexit-a-1096999.html

Would be interested how others percieve it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Here's a link to the english translation to the interview where Schaüble *threatens the UK *according to UK press:
> 
> http://www.spiegel.de/international...h-wolfgang-schaeuble-on-brexit-a-1096999.html
> 
> Would be interested how others percieve it.


Yes but when people make threats I tend to switch off.

Making threats to a member state (which we are at the moment) is an act of war against all member states isn't it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> @stockwellcat: I read that about 15% of the population is (allegedly) worried that if we leave, they will no longer be able to holiday in Europe ... Benidorm mentality?


Leaving the EU won't happen over night. You can't undo 40 years of membership in 24 hours it will take time to undo all the laws etc we are bound to in the EU. By the time they get around to sort out what you are asking above a new agreement will be in place.

This makes an interesting intelligent read:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ally-change-Britain-much-at-first-anyway.html


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Yes but when people make threats I tend to switch off.
> 
> Making threats to a member state (which we are at the moment) is an act of war against all member states isn't it?


So you think he made threats based on what he said? What do you classify as a threat specifically?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So you think he made threats based on what he said? What do you classify as a threat specifically?


The newspaper you are quoting is a German newspaper not an English one. It is translated into English. The paper is called De Spiegel. I quite frankly am not interested in what he has to say. He is not voting in our Referendum which I now can't wait until it is over as it has gone on to long. The opinion of the UK people is what I am interested in, those that can and will make a difference if we leave the EU.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Kimthecat, nothing you have talked about deals with the issues of BREXIT and the EU does it? Certainly not directly with immigration unless I have missed something. Changes you have mentioned would happen in or out of the EU. Part of being part of "London" and expansion. Plenty of places in the UK would love to have the investment and the jobs to support growth "nearby".
> 
> Long, worth a read. Not my words and don't know the original author:
> 
> Most people will not read but to sum up. Problems brexit point to being fault of immigration aren't at the EU level, they are with the UK government level including with "austerity". Even if immigration held for 10 years at the current level we still wouldn't really be inundated and overstretched and numbers are record breaking at the moment. No evidence immigrants take a disproportionate share of jobs, no evidence they reduce wages and no evidence that they affect the market performance of native born worker. They do contribute more in taxes than they use in public services. The fear mongering from the leave campaign with turkey etc is simply that, fear. The countries are nowhere near ready to be accepted into the EU.
> 
> Personal feeling, UK is not the only country where the issue of immigrants is being raised. Surely we can work together to solve the problems, maybe even solve the base problems the west were responsible for which caused a lot of displaced people in the first place.


Fine if all you care about is quantity. I care more about quality.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> This makes an interesting intelligent read:
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ally-change-Britain-much-at-first-anyway.html


Commonly known as the Nowegean option. The EEA means the UK would be required to implement Single Market policies, but have no voting in setting the rules of the Single Market. We would have to comply with rules of origin for exports to the EU and be subject to EU anti-dumping measures. We would also contribute to the EU budget and free movement, possibly, although would hope not, losing the idea of our own border controls. Within the EU this is protected by a UK veto.No guarantee this option would be acceptable.

http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Clement BREXIT entry_for web_0.pdf a much better read as to details.

Simpler is http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit01.pdf



stockwellcat said:


> The newspaper you are quoting is a German newspaper not an English one. It is translated into English. The paper is called De Spiegel. I quite frankly am not interested in what he has to say.


So you do not know what he said but still accuse him of threatening the UK during the interview.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> *Here's a link to the english translation to the interview where Schaüble threatens the UK according to UK press*:
> 
> http://www.spiegel.de/international...h-wolfgang-schaeuble-on-brexit-a-1096999.html
> 
> Would be interested how others percieve it.


You said the above (highlighted in bold). Firstly the paper you quoted is German not UK Press related so the UK press did not say that he threatened the UK, where's the proof? Secondly let's clear something up I saw what you wrote and replied accordingly. I have no interest in what this man has to say. Lastly stop picking on everything I say it's getting boring having petty debates on here. You are clearly trying to undermine the leave side of the Referendum, it's as petty as what Cameron said today about pensions and is getting annoying. People are allowed a say and allowed to make up their own minds on this referendum regardless of if it is right or wrong. What is showing is the desperate attitude of the remain side because they are losing ground regarding the referendum. It isn't about who can shout loudest it is about the future of this country.

I have nothing new to say on the referendum except I can't wait until it's over as it has dragged on to long. Everything seems to be getting repeated over and over again, we get it the remainders what to stay tied to the super state and foreign power house called Europe and the leavers see Britain independent again out of Europe. Other countries have left Europe and are thriving so why can't Britain. The whole debate around Britain's membership seems to be going around in circles.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> You are clearly trying to undermine the leave side of the Referendum, it's as petty as what Cameron said today about pensions and is getting annoying.


Facts are now petty and annoying.



> People are allowed a say and allowed to make up their own minds on this referendum regardless of if it is right or wrong. What is showing is the desperate attitude of the remain side because they are losing ground regarding the referendum. It isn't about who can shout loudest it is about the future of this country.


I'm prepared to take a stand for what I believe is right. I agree, it's not about shouting the loudest. It's making sure the facts are discussed.


----------



## kimthecat

MoggyBaby said:


> When I moved into Moggy Towers 13 yrs ago, it was a quiet street and was showing signs of becoming a little up market - not a lot but the houses were reasonably priced for young house buyers to get on the ladder. These were people who worked and were committed to improving the properties. Then 'Buy-to-Let' went through the roof and all the developers bought up the reasonably priced houses and let them out to anyone. We now have a street where less than 50% have English as their first language and too many who don't speak English at all.
> 
> The town itself is changing too - the shops that are closing down are springing back up as Eastern European cafes and supermarkets. There have been times when I've popped into town and not heard any English being spoken by passers-by.  I am NOT racist - my immediate neighbours are very very nice although we cannot have a conversation because I don't speak their language and they don't speak mine.
> 
> And don't even START me on the mass housing development around here........


 The local builders and decorators must be raking it in !

I would agree that Buy to let has affected house prices, some 3 bed semis are going for £500,000 and that is pushing up prices elsewhere because people are selling up and moving to places like slough and bracknell . I'm always on Rightmove and they're asking £30,000 more for houses there than 6 months ago. House rents are ludicrous but also high rent for offices , warehouses and shops are driving business away to cheaper areas , shops are closing in our town shopping centre all the time except the large stores like Boots and Sainsburys.

We do hear different languages being spoken but generally most people in my part of the road speak some English 
so its not too much of a problem yet.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> The newspaper you are quoting is a German newspaper not an English one. It is translated into English. The paper is called De Spiegel. I quite frankly am not interested in what he has to say. He is not voting in our Referendum which I now can't wait until it is over as it has gone on to long. The opinion of the UK people is what I am interested in, those that can and will make a difference if we leave the EU.


 Surely you get a more balanced view if you take into consideration all the opinions and information you can?

The UK press have taken their stances and are twisting the truth (as they always do) to suit their own agendas. A lot of people as has been stated before are making the decision on a single issue.

I read something over the weekend that made me think very hard about my choice. I had decided that I wouldn't read anything in detail until the end of the campaigns because I knew I would get fed up and that most of the factual info would come nearer the 23rd June


----------



## KittenKong

When I joined Pet Forums last November I was surprised to see political comments allowed. I'm on a couple more forums where discussing anything remotely political is strictly prohibited. Now I can understand why.
Quite frankly I'm appalled by this, "All about Britain, don't give a s*** what they think or say" attitude from some. It should be remembered the forum is available globally and not just in the UK.
I'm proud to be part of Europe, they are my friends. I am no better nor worse than anyone. I want the right to emigrate to another EU country when I retire should I wish to do so. 
Whether the UK opts to leave the EU or remain the damage this referendum has caused will take a long time to get over.
I accept the EU is far from perfect and people's opinions differ to my own. 
Now I'll get off my soapbox and go back to what I joined Pet Forum for.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> When I joined Pet Forums last November I was surprised to see political comments allowed. I'm on a couple more forums where discussing anything remotely political is strictly prohibited. Now I can understand why.
> Quite frankly I'm appalled by this, "All about Britain, don't give a s*** what they think or say" attitude from some. It should be remembered the forum is available globally and not just in the UK.
> I'm proud to be part of Europe, they are my friends. I am no better nor worse than anyone. I want the right to emigrate to another EU country when I retire should I wish to do so.
> Whether the UK opts to leave the EU or remain the damage this referendum has caused will take a long time to get over.
> I accept the EU is far from perfect and people's opinions differ to my own.
> Now I'll get off my soapbox and go back to what I joined Pet Forum for.


The EU and Europe are two completely different things. It is quite possible to like one and not t'other.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Whether the UK opts to leave the EU or remain the damage this referendum has caused will take a long time to get over..


The damage was done when we signed up to a Common Market and became a member of a European Union by stealth. We didn't vote to join the European Union . We live in a democratic country and it is our right to a referendum and to vote whether we stay in a European Union or not.


----------



## kimthecat

Whatever way the vote goes , I hope they can stop the cruelty to animals that abounds starting with this

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/live-animal-transport/uk-live-exports/


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## Jamesgoeswalkies

KittenKong said:


> I'm proud to be part of Europe, they are my friends.


I have no issue with being part of Europe ...I love Europe and have spent many months over many years travelling through and around France, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Poland, Hungary Croatia, Serbia (which were called Yugoslavia when i first went there lol) Germany etc etc ....I speak ( a smattering!) of a number of languages picked up when i traveled. I have crossed borders with checkpoints in the days before 'open' borders and tried to work out currency exchange in the days before the Euro. I love Europe.

It's the EU I have a problem with.

J


----------



## cheekyscrip

It is a bit " cut your nose to spite your face" situation....


----------



## CuddleMonster

Calvine said:


> @stockwellcat: I read that about 15% of the population is (allegedly) worried that if we leave, they will no longer be able to holiday in Europe ... Benidorm mentality?


Eh?!!!!  In that case, how come people holiday in Australasia, Asia & Africa? They're not part of the EU!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

I didn't say this: *: I read that about 15% of the population is (allegedly) worried that if we leave, they will no longer be able to holiday in Europe ... Benidorm mentality?* @Calvine did.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> The damage was done when we signed up to a Common Market and became a member of a European Union by stealth. We didn't vote to join the European Union . We live in a democratic country and it is our right to a referendum and to vote whether we stay in a European Union or not.


What's the difference between the two?


----------



## Calvine

CuddleMonster said:


> Eh?!!!!  In that case, how come people holiday in Australasia, Asia & Africa? They're not part of the EU!!!


@CuddleMonster : yes, you and I and many others know this, but the point I made...or tried to...is that there are apparently a lot of people who seriously think that voting out will limit their holidays and hence will vote remain. As clueless as they are, they will still be entitled to vote! No-one has to do an IQ test before they are allowed into a polling station, do they?


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> Yes but when people make threats I tend to switch off.


@stockwellcat: Totally 100% with you on that. The more they scaremonger, threaten, use bully-boy tactics and abuse the other side, the more I think people (be they remainiacs or Brexit) will see they are desperate and lacking the courage of their own convictions. I think most people I know made up their minds ages ago how they would vote and nothing has persuaded them to change their intentions.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> @CuddleMonster : yes, you and I and many others know this, but the point I made...or tried to...is that there are apparently a lot of people who seriously think that voting out will limit their holidays and hence will vote remain. As clueless as they are, they will still be entitled to vote! No-one has to do an IQ test before they are allowed into a polling station, do they?


No they do not and neither does anyone have to justify or answer any questions before they cast their vote. I`m sure lots of people will go out and vote based on all sorts of beliefs as is their right to do so. I agree that most people who are decided are not going to change their minds, I do know a number of people who are still totally undecided but are hoping to make up their mind one way or another by the 23rd, others like myself know that is very unlikely to happen so do not intend voting.


----------



## Sacrechat

Calvine said:


> @CuddleMonster : yes, you and I and many others know this, but the point I made...or tried to...is that there are apparently a lot of people who seriously think that voting out will limit their holidays and hence will vote remain. As clueless as they are, they will still be entitled to vote! No-one has to do an IQ test before they are allowed into a polling station, do they?


I don't usually join in with political debates, but what you have said highlights my greatest fear. There are people voting in this referendum who make no effort to understand the issues and are either unable or unwilling to consider all the facts. Whether that is due to a low IQ or a dogmatic mindset both are equally as dangerous and frightening to me.

I personally feel if I cannot reach an informed decision in time, then I will have no choice but to abstain from voting, but not everyone thinks this way and I fear some people will vote with their hearts and not their minds.

I find the debates mostly confusing and unhelpful, but I thank people for some of the links on here because they have proved to be far more useful in giving me a clearer idea about the issues etc., especially #350 and #623


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> @CuddleMonster : yes, you and I and many others know this, but the point I made...or tried to...is that there are apparently a lot of people who seriously think that voting out will limit their holidays and hence will vote remain. As clueless as they are, they will still be entitled to vote! No-one has to do an IQ test before they are allowed into a polling station, do they?


If my holidays cost more through increased administration costs for travel companies (as the Ryan air boss suggests) and / or through a depreciating pound (as practically all experts suggest), will that not limit them?

Some people think that by leaving the EU - and only by leaving the EU - we will be able to ignore human rights rules and deport any criminals we want.

Some people don't even consider the implications of a Brexit on passporting financial services before making up their minds.

There are different levels of cluelessness and very few of us would pass a test on all aspects of this subject.


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> If my holidays cost more through increased administration costs for travel companies (as the Ryan air boss suggests) and / or through a depreciating pound (as practically all experts suggest), will that not limit them?


@Arnie83 : these are people who believe that they will no longer be able to holiday abroad, either because there has been scaremongering to that effect or they do not realise or remember that people travelled to Europe before we joined whenever that was...(some time in the 70's).


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> @Arnie83 : these are people who believe that they will no longer be able to holiday abroad, either because there has been scaremongering to that effect or they do not realise or remember that people travelled to Europe before we joined whenever that was...(some time in the 70's).


Like I said, there are different levels of cluelessness, and I would bet that every one of us is on one or other of them.

We should never be having this referendum.

When he called it Cameron abdicated responsibility for running the country in favour of trying to run the Tory party.


----------



## Calvine

@3dogs2cats and @Sacremist: Totally with you on that, both of you...if I had no idea what I wanted I would abstain also. Most people I know seemed to know from the start what their intentions were. It will be interesting to see what % of the electorate turns out for this one. I know loads of people who don't normally bother to vote, but have said they will for this one. Generally, the turnout is very low; I was shocked with one ...can't remember which, that the turnout was only 30+%. Sometimes it even depends on the weather apparently!


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> The damage was done when we signed up to a Common Market and became a member of a European Union by stealth. We didn't vote to join the European Union . We live in a democratic country and it is our right to a referendum and to vote whether we stay in a European Union or not.


Surely the 1970 Conservative Party manifesto would've mentioned their intention to join the Common Market? Those who voted for them must've been aware? In 1975 the Labour Government had a Yes/No referendum whether to remain in the Common Market or not. The yes vote was unanimous. Memories of WWII were still fresh in many minds.
I respect your opinions and your right to express them even though I respectfully disagree.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> We should never be having this referendum.
> 
> When he called it Cameron abdicated responsibility for running the country in favour of trying to run the Tory party.


I seem to remember that a EU referendum was an election promise which Cameron has now fulfilled.


----------



## kimthecat

@Arnie83 : these are people who believe that they will no longer be able to holiday abroad, either because there has been scaremongering to that effect or they do not realise or remember that people travelled to Europe before we joined whenever that was...(some time in the 70's).[/QUOTE]

We joined in 1973. You didnt even need a full passport before that , I remember going on a day trip to france and having a card that folded , I think was from the post office and you put your photo on it . does anyone else remember that


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I seem to remember that a EU referendum was an election promise which Cameron has now fulfilled.


Indeed. And why was it an election promise? The same reason he promised to leave the EPP in order to become leader. He was pacifying his eurosceptic wing.


----------



## KittenKong

Yes, I remember the card.
Think most concerns are about the ability to emigrate to another EU country, a privilege once available to only the rich.
At present any one of us can retire to, say Spain and enjoy a good standard of living. Younger people have the right to work and live there in the same way EU citizens can come here.


----------



## cheekyscrip

We will be able to travel. Just bit more expensive if need health cover.
We will be able to work abroad. If we get permit.
We will not be able to chuck out immigrants.
If pounds falls low enough they would go ( get national income the level of Albania and problem solved).

We will get recession. Because if pound falling and investment..
Unemployment...but some get new jobs. (Johnson...)

I think it is worth to look through latest issues of The Economist if you want to read about the Brexit effects.

I feel some do not want to know...just wave the flag...


It would take many years till new treaties are in place and not necessarily better....
About at least ten to come back to what we have now...if!
Are those to want to leave ready to face consequences?

Did Leave leaders honestly explained the price ?

How many actually understand" passporting financial services"?...
And what effect it would have on their lives?

Or devaluation of our currency?

I wish I were younger and had time to see it through or older and past caring...


----------



## kimthecat

> kimthecat said The damage was done when we signed up to a Common Market and became a member of a European Union by stealth. We didn't vote to join the European Union . .





KittenKong said:


> Surely the 1970 Conservative Party manifesto would've mentioned their intention to join the Common Market? Those who voted for them must've been aware? In 1975 the Labour Government had a Yes/No referendum whether to remain in the Common Market or not. The yes vote was unanimous. Memories of WWII were still fresh in many minds.
> I respect your opinions and your right to express them even though I respectfully disagree.


I need to explain my statement. yes the UK government signed to join the European Economic Community or Common Market in 1973. With the next government there was a referendum in 1975 to stay or leave the European Economic Community (heavily biased publicity for stay ) The Stay vote won because people were persuaded that our country's economy would prosper financially, . that trading would be easier etc
The EEC was started after the war to try to unite Europe . While it ( the War) was fresh in the older generations minds , I think after the strikes and unrest of the early seventies , it wasn't so strong a factor or I don't remember it to be.

At that time , most members of the public were unaware the European leaders' aim was that the single market would eventually lead to a more powerful European Union and one day perhaps a Federal Europe . So while most people voted to stay in the Common market , they didn't vote for the Union we know today. Younger people haven't been given a chance to vote at all and they should have that chance.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> I need to explain my statement. yes the UK government signed to join the European Economic Community or Common Market in 1973. With the next government there was a referendum in 1975 to stay or leave the European Economic Community (heavily biased publicity for stay ) The Stay vote won because people were persuaded that our country's economy would prosper financially, . that trading would be easier etc
> The EEC was started after the war to try to unite Europe . While it ( the War) was fresh in the older generations minds , I think after the strikes and unrest of the early seventies , it wasn't so strong a factor or I don't remember it to be.
> 
> At that time , most members of the public were unaware the European leaders' aim was that the single market would eventually lead to a more powerful European Union and one day perhaps a Federal Europe . So while most people voted to stay in the Common market , they didn't vote for the Union we know today. Younger people haven't been given a chance to vote at all and they should have that chance.


Those were the times of Cold War too..
UK benefited from EEC.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> I wonder if this very well organised and premeditated attack of Russian on English fans was not supported by Putin?


Hasn't one of his MPs effectively said 'Keep up the good work lads' ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> Hasn't one of his MPs effectively said 'Keep up the good work lads' ?


Definitely lack of sense of shame and disgust with such behaviour.

Putin actively supports Russian nationalists...photographs himself with Night Wolves on motorbike in their gear..etc...
He also hates EU and openly supports Brexit.

Our prospective next best friend!.
He knows that attacks on fans would flare even more.nationalism and xenophobia in Britain...
Those attacks were professional and carried with military precision...


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Those were the times of Cold War too..
> UK benefited from EEC.


 Uk benefited from nato.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Definitely lack of sense of shame and disgust with such behaviour.
> 
> Putin actively supports Russian nationalists...photographs himself with Night Wolves on motorbike in their gear..etc...
> He also hates EU and openly supports Brexit.
> 
> Our prospective next best friend!.
> He knows that attacks on fans would flare even more.nationalism and xenophobia in Britain...
> Those attacks were professional and carried with military precision...


The EU referendum is about the future though and he won't be in power forever.

Of course, it could be someone worse, but it could also be someone far better.


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> If Brexit ARE successful and get the majority on the 23rd, I forsee another General Election not long after that because the current set-up is so fragile right now, it will take very little for it to all fall apart.
> 
> Should this be the case, I don't think the Tories stand a farts chance in hell of staying in power.
> 
> That might be wishful thinking but that is how I am reading the situation at this time. Cameron is on the downward slope and what little credability he had has been shot to bits in the run-up to this referendum.


I'm afraid I don't share your optimism MB. The tories have been so busy gerrymandering I can't see them getting voted out anytime soon. And the msm is biased in favour of the right , while hostile to Corbyn & Labour, and the Greens message is pretty much blocked out all together. Look at how the media has framed this issue for example?. People actually believe migrants are to blame for most of our problems - and not this government. They actually believe immigration is responsible for bringing our public services to its knees when the tories economically destructive & inhumane austerity is to blame. When the brexit camp talk about 'less burdens for business' this actually means less rights for workers. When they talk about deregulation & cutting red tape like its a good thing - this means unleashing corporate interests who care only about one thing - profit. If we leave we will be in the hands of a far right government. A bunch of selfserving climate change deniers. I really don't see how this can be anything but negative for ordinary people, our rights, jobs or our environment.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I'm afraid I don't share your optimism MB. The tories have been so busy gerrymandering I can't see them getting voted out anytime soon. And the msm is biased in favour of the right , while hostile to Corbyn & Labour, and the Greens message is pretty much blocked out all together. Look at how the media has framed this issue for example?. People actually believe migrants are to blame for most of our problems - and not this government. They actually believe immigration is responsible for bringing our public services to its knees when the tories economically destructive & inhumane austerity is to blame. When the brexit camp talk about 'less burdens for business' this actually means less rights for workers. When they talk about deregulation & cutting red tape like its a good thing - this means unleashing corporate interests who care only about one thing - profit. If we leave we will be in the hands of a far right government. A bunch of selfserving climate change deniers. I really don't see how this can be anything but negative for ordinary people, our rights, jobs or our environment.


Agreed

And further to this, on @MoggyBaby 's point - If there is a GE shortly after Brexit will the British public who chose to Leave not want a Brexit-leaning government negotiating the terms? Why would they vote in a government who doesn't believe we should have left and who might therefore concede more than the Leavers wanted? The next 5 years will be Boris, Gove, Grayling et al.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> The EU referendum is about the future though and he won't be in power forever.
> 
> Of course, it could be someone worse, but it could also be someone far better.


Putin is no more than loudspeaker for those who support him.

They are the ones in power. The ones who bought Knightbridge and so on...
Mega mega rich gangsters. 
Berezovsky was one of them..fell out with him and now is dead.

Putin is just a clever tool. He is backed by money and the army...
Handful of families now rule Russia and keep smaller ambitious gangsters in check.

Russia still has imperial ideas.

It is not Turkey we should worry and EU is not a threat.

I speak Russian, worked in Russia, have many Russian friends.

As I mention once one of them, very rich, very pro Putin , just laughed " We will but It" meaning Britain after Brexit.

To stop recession Johnson would Russian money in..
To compensate for lost trade with EU..
Then sanctions against Russia for invading Ukraine would be a joke.

Many Russians support Putin and those behind him. After all Russia is getting stronger by day...
Look, they invaded another country, took Crimea..
All that Ukraine did was to be closer to EU.

Who helped refugees, took wounded and homeless?

Poland. Took half a million people in just months!!!


----------



## KittenKong

Here we go again, a certain tabloid headline pleading with us to vote leave. This paper have proved to be highly influential in the past.
People should make up their own minds.
If the leave campaign is victorious I now fear they will be, should the experts be correct in their predictions for the economy they'll say it's all worth it. Wave your Union Jack, put up the bunting, be British and proud.......


----------



## cheekyscrip

Over all...
Remember Britain is not a world power house any more. No European country on its own is. None except Russia. 
The others are China, India and USA.
EU is a power as long as united enough.

Brexit will leave us to play on our own against Russia. Then USA and TTIP and Chinese overcapacity ...


I wish people looked further than the end of their street.

What is going on in the world would affect Britain, that mean you and your street.


----------



## kimthecat

TBH it will be very close but in the end I think the Stay will win .
Interestingly , last time the press were all for it even the Mail and Express, the only one against was the Morning Star.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Poland. Took half a million people in just months!!!


They have the room , all the Poles are over here. LOL

"European countries that are not part of the European Union include Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Albania, Switzerland, Turkey, Russia, Macedonia and Montenegro. Of these, two countries, Russia and Turkey, straddle Europe and Asia.
lthough Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein are not members of the EU, they have agreements with the EU that allow their citizens to live and work in member countries without work permits. Switzerland has a similar agreement, though its agreement is slightly more limited "

yes, russia could be a threat , it always has been , putin likes to show off and push buttons .
we are part of nato , we have nuclear weapons so they won't kick us out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO

Is India considered a power house? They're part of our commonwealth .


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Indeed. And why was it an election promise? The same reason he promised to leave the EPP in order to become leader. He was pacifying his eurosceptic wing.


Perhaps but I personally don't think it matters why he promised it. it is something that people have wanted for years not just members of his party.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Agreed
> 
> And further to this, on @MoggyBaby 's point - If there is a GE shortly after Brexit will the British public who chose to Leave not want a Brexit-leaning government negotiating the terms? Why would they vote in a government who doesn't believe we should have left and who might therefore concede more than the Leavers wanted? The next 5 years will be Boris, Gove, Grayling et al.


I wonder what happens to UKIP if we leave and there is a GE? If the UKIP party is over what happens to the millions of votes that went to them last time? It could actually be a great result for Labour.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> I wonder what happens to UKIP if we leave and there is a GE? If the UKIP party is over what happens to the millions of votes that went to them last time? It could actually be a great result for Labour.


Why do you think Corbyn is sitting on the fence smiling....?


----------



## kimthecat

Just seen the news , Corbyn urging Labour supporters to vote Stay and making a great show of it .

yet -
https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/4...den+opportunity+by+backing+the+European+Union

It's certainly true that the large majority of Labour MPs back Remain. But those who are for Leave point out that throughout their time in parliament both Corbyn and shadow chancellor John McDonnell backed anti-EU motions.

In this they were simply following the anti-EU position of their political mentor, Tony Benn.

During the 1993 debate on the EU's Maastricht treaty Corbyn said it "takes away from national parliaments the power to set economic policy and hands it over to an unelected set of bankers who will impose the economic policies of price stability, deflation and high unemployment throughout the European Community".

So whats changed?


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Just seen the news , Corbyn urging Labour supporters to vote Stay and making a great show of it .
> 
> yet -
> https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/4...den+opportunity+by+backing+the+European+Union
> 
> It's certainly true that the large majority of Labour MPs back Remain. But those who are for Leave point out that throughout their time in parliament both Corbyn and shadow chancellor John McDonnell backed anti-EU motions.
> 
> In this they were simply following the anti-EU position of their political mentor, Tony Benn.
> 
> During the 1993 debate on the EU's Maastricht treaty Corbyn said it "takes away from national parliaments the power to set economic policy and hands it over to an unelected set of bankers who will impose the economic policies of price stability, deflation and high unemployment throughout the European Community".
> 
> So whats changed?


Well the eurozone, for one. We're not in it, so the EU's bankers can't impose anything on the UK. While the system might not work in the most efficient fashion for some countries in the eurozone - and it doesn't - Corbyn should have the best interests of the UK in mind, which he does when he advises a vote to Remain.


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> Agreed
> 
> And further to this, on @MoggyBaby 's point - If there is a GE shortly after Brexit will the British public who chose to Leave not want a Brexit-leaning government negotiating the terms? Why would they vote in a government who doesn't believe we should have left and who might therefore concede more than the Leavers wanted? The next 5 years will be Boris, Gove, Grayling et al.


Dont forget IDS.


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> I wonder what happens to UKIP if we leave and there is a GE? If the UKIP party is over what happens to the millions of votes that went to them last time? It could actually be a great result for Labour.


I would imagine UKIP will fold, having served its purpose with its members (re) joining the Conservative Party.


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> Dont forget IDS.


I was trying to ... but now you've reminded me!


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> I was trying to ... but now you've reminded me!


It's hard for me to, he's my MP! 

We had a lovely town festival this past Saturday and it was a lovely day and then someone drove one of those advert car things with IDS says vote leave. 
Made me very sure of my choice in my postal vote.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Believe"The Sun"...believe Rupert Murdoch.....

Were they the paper who blamed the victims of Hillsborough?


----------



## KittenKong

What the Sun wants they get unfortunately. Past General Elections have been decided by this paper. It's on sale in countries where many UK expats live.
They must be worried sick.


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> What the Sun wants they get unfortunately. Past General Elections have been decided by this paper. It's on sale in countries where many UK expats live.
> They must be worried sick.


I agree the sun seems to get it's way.

I don't think expats need worry. I don't think their circumstances will change.


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> I agree the sun seems to get it's way.
> 
> I don't think expats need worry. I don't think their circumstances will change.


Really?

What about the EU citizens who are in the UK under free movement when we leave? Do they retain free movement even if they go back home for a while? Would theyb free to come back, or would they then be subject to PM Boris's new regulations? If they don't retain free movement, why should our immigrants - sorry, expats - to other EU countries should they return home for a visit?

How can you be so sure that they don't need to worry?


----------



## Goblin

Anthony Hilton of the Evening Standard:


> I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That's easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Well the eurozone, for one. We're not in it, so the EU's bankers can't impose anything on the UK. While the system might not work in the most efficient fashion for some countries in the eurozone - and it doesn't - Corbyn should have the best interests of the UK in mind, which he does when he advises a vote to Remain.


But at that time of the Treaty we were outside the ERM with a floating currency so what would the EU bankers been able to impose on us ? I'm not sure. We had our pound then and we had our pound now , thank you Gorden Brown.

Cameron was pressurised by his euro sceptics to have a referendum but he has always wanted to stay since he has been in power.
Corbyn has wanted to leave but is pressurised into backing stay by his MPs.

If Corbyn has the best interests of the UK in mind by backing Stay then so does Cameron

This is how Corbyn has been voting -
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133/jeremy_corbyn/islington_north/divisions?policy=1065

some examples of what he was against or was absent.

27 Feb 2008: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on Lisbon Treaty - Enshrine the Lisbon Treaty into UK law

3 Mar 2008: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on Lisbon Treaty - Increase of powers of European Parliament

4 Mar 2008: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on Lisbon Treaty - Clause on 'parliamentary control of decisions' to remain in the Bill

14 Dec 2010: Jeremy Corbyn voted against working closely with the European Commission to deliver a strong, principles-based framework for financial sector corporate governance.

25 Jan 2011: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on European Union Bill - Clause 6 - Referendum on Emergency Financial Assistance for EU Member States

23 Mar 2011: Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Stability Mechanism to give financial assistance to Eurozone countries in need.

23 Nov 2011: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on Deferred Division - Schengen Governance

24 Apr 2012: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on European Union - Data Protection in the Areas of Police and Criminal Justice (EU Directive)

31 Oct 2012: Jeremy Corbyn voted to call on the UK Government to seek a real terms cut in the European Union budget

6 Nov 2012: Jeremy Corbyn voted against the UK's involvement in a European Supervisory Authority, the European Banking Authority.

15 Jul 2013: Jeremy Corbyn voted against opting out of all EU police and criminal justice measures adopted before December 2009

4 Dec 2013: Jeremy Corbyn voted against an EU trade agreement with Colombia and Peru

7 Jan 2014: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on Benefit Entitlement (Restriction) Bill

22 Jan 2014: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on European Commission Work Programme 2014 and Support for Completion of the EU Single Market

27 Jan 2014: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on European Union (Approvals) Bill - Third Reading - European Archives and Europe for Citizens Programme

10 Nov 2014: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on Transposing European Union Criminal Justice and Data Protection Measures into UK Law

14 Dec 2015: Jeremy Corbyn was absent for a vote on European Union Documents - Relocation of Migrants in need of International Protection

14 Mar 2016: Jeremy Corbyn voted not to take account of carbon dioxide emissions traded via the European Union to Emissions Trading Scheme when calculating the state of the UK carbon account for periods from 2028 onwards

Maybe he had reasons for being absent but he doesnt seem a good track record at first glance.
If he becomes PM will he be against most of the bills , if he wants to change the EU from the inside, I don't think he will make much progress.

.


* *


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> I would imagine UKIP will fold, having served its purpose with its members (re) joining the Conservative Party.


Yaay. Nigel for PM :Cigar


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Really?
> 
> What about the EU citizens who are in the UK under free movement when we leave? Do they retain free movement even if they go back home for a while? Would theyb free to come back, or would they then be subject to PM Boris's new regulations? If they don't retain free movement, why should our immigrants - sorry, expats - to other EU countries should they return home for a visit?
> 
> How can you be so sure that they don't need to worry?


Vested rights.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Arnie83 said:


> How can you be so sure that they don't need to worry?


I must admit I have little knowledge of ex pats ...so I have been googling and reading.

Interestingly there are 1.3 million ex pats living in the EU and 3 million Europeans living in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/18/eu-facts-what-would-leaving-the-eu-mean-for-expats/

In short they are protected by "_the Vienna Convention of 1969, which says that the termination of a treaty "does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination." The House of Commons Library says that "withdrawing from a treaty releases the parties from any future obligations to each other, but does not affect any rights or obligations acquired under it before withdrawal."_

_J_


----------



## Goblin

Satori, not as simple as that, believe me I've looked  Most likely outcome is UK still agrees to free movement (makes the idea of stopping immigrants moot).
If not, the 1969 Vienna Convention "should" protect against the removal of “acquired rights” which protects expats. Never been tested under law. Not that simple though and life for expats could be made a lot harder through various "methods" such as taxing foreign housing ownership if any state decided to. The economy of some spanish towns are dependent on the expats living there and they will not want to rock the boat which means it's unlikely there. Overall I think it will not be an issue. There is a time limit before you gain protection, 3 year I think but cannot remember for sure. Biggest issue I think for expats is health and medical treatment.

Unfortunately for those looking for it, it would be a lot harder for people to "retire in the sun" in future.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Goblin said:


> Satori, not as simple as that, believe me I've looked  Most likely outcome is UK still agrees to free movement (makes the idea of stopping immigrants moot).
> If not, the 1969 Vienna Convention "should" protect against the removal of "acquired rights" which protects expats. Never been tested under law. Not that simple though and life for expats could be made a lot harder through various "methods" such as taxing foreign housing ownership if any state decided to. The economy of some spanish towns are dependent on the expats living there and they will not want to rock the boat which means it's unlikely there. Overall I think it will not be an issue. There is a time limit before you gain protection, 3 year I think but cannot remember for sure. Biggest issue I think for expats is health and medical treatment.
> 
> *Unfortunately for those looking for it, it would be a lot harder for people to "retire in the sun" in future*.


Hardly!! The state of the Spanish & Greek economy these days they will welcome anyone into their country who will be bring in their UK pension money and spending it there.


----------



## Goblin

MoggyBaby, rules are rules and redtape will still be red tape. It will still be possible, simply harder than it currently is. Healthcare will certainly need to be investigated and allowed for unless, as part of any BREXIT negotiations, reciprical health care is retained. Would have a lot of advantages for people if it was, including holiday makers in general from all sides but I don't really expect it to be. Free movement is something many people take for granted.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> MoggyBaby, rules are rules and redtape will still be red tape. It will still be possible, simply harder than it currently is. Healthcare will certainly need to be investigated and allowed for unless, as part of any BREXIT negotiations, reciprical health care is retained. Would have a lot of advantages for people if it was, including holiday makers in general from all sides but I don't really expect it to be. Free movement is something many people take for granted.


I would hope that reciprocal Healthcare is not part of exit negotiations. I much prefer the Swiss model. If one can afford to retire in the sun, one ought to be able to pay for health insurance.

Priorities.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Goblin said:


> MoggyBaby, rules are rules and redtape will still be red tape. It will still be possible, simply harder than it currently is. Healthcare will certainly need to be investigated and allowed for unless, as part of any BREXIT negotiations, reciprical health care is retained. Would have a lot of advantages for people if it was, including holiday makers in general from all sides but I don't really expect it to be. Free movement is something many people take for granted.


Reciprocal healthcare? God forbid! Getting out would hopefully see an end to the 'health holiday' that so many other nationalities seem to come to the UK specifically for - to take advantage of our free health service!

Those who can afford to retire abroad can also afford insurance.


----------



## Goblin

MoggyBaby, yet another Myth. Reciprical healthcare isn't simply the NHS paying for anyone who comes to the UK. The NHS claims the money back from the "country" involved. If a EU foreigner comes to the UK and asks for treatment, such as going to the doctors they have to give details of how they are covered financially (health insurance details from those from Germany) so the NHS can claim it back. I have personal experience of this. Other countries claim money back from the NHS for treatment given to people from the UK.

You may find http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/plannedtreatment/Pages/Introduction.aspx interesting.

Not a case of go to the UK, get all healthcare paid for by the UK taxman.


----------



## DogLover1981

I'm actually curious to see what happens with this vote.


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> Reciprocal healthcare? God forbid! Getting out would hopefully see an end to the 'health holiday' that so many other nationalities seem to come to the UK specifically for - to take advantage of our free health service!
> 
> Those who can afford to retire abroad can also afford insurance.


The National Health Action Party ( set up by Drs and other medical professionals to fight the tories demolition of our NHS), have busted the myth about health tourism. Costs to the NHS are negligible and easily offset by UK public receiving care in the EU. Again, its the tories that are the real danger - not health tourists.

*A handy factsheet about immigrants and health tourism to help counter the UKIP lies: http://nhap.org/a-handy-factsheet-about-immigrants-and-health-tourism/

*
And here is what the NHAP says about the impact of the EU vote on the NHS.

http://nhap.org/the-friday-surgery-13/

Conclusion -

*So the EU vote matters to the NHS. It's the difference between being sold off and starved quickly or being sold off and starved really quickly. No more, no less. The choice on the ballot paper is not fundamentally about immigration, democratic accountability, juridical control, and social and consumer protections, although these factors are certainly all implicated in, and relevant to, the debate. It is about which flavour of hyper-capitalism you prefer. If you prefer the version where Eurocrats funnel the blind desires of barely regulated financial institutions toward bringing indebted countries to their knees then stay in. Here you get to see other people's public services torn to pieces a little bit quicker than your own. Alternatively you can have Brexit hyper-capitalism and enjoy watching an upscaling of the UK war on the poor and the destruction of your own public services at a slightly faster rate than would otherwise be possible.

So take your choice on the 23rd June knowing that the NHS will continue to be destroyed either way.

What turkeys really need is a referendum on neoliberalism. But I don't think we'll see that on the side of the Boris battle bus any time soon.*


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> MoggyBaby, yet another Myth. Reciprical healthcare isn't simply the NHS paying for anyone who comes to the UK. The NHS claims the money back from the "country" involved. If a EU foreigner comes to the UK and asks for treatment, such as going to the doctors they have to give details of how they are covered financially (health insurance details from those from Germany) so the NHS can claim it back. I have personal experience of this. Other countries claim money back from the NHS for treatment given to people from the UK.
> 
> You may find http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/plannedtreatment/Pages/Introduction.aspx interesting.
> 
> Not a case of go to the UK, get all healthcare paid for by the UK taxman.


This may be true but our NHS is still a very big draw for many because they do not have any upfront costs as they do in other member states. This puts our NHS under enormous strain because of the sheer numbers wanting treatment here

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/health/planned-healthcare/right-to-treatment/index_en.htm

Also, what does it cost our NHS to process all these refunds?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> This may be true but our NHS is still a very big draw for many because they do not have any upfront costs as they do in other member states. This puts our NHS under enormous strain because of the sheer numbers wanting treatment here
> 
> http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/health/planned-healthcare/right-to-treatment/index_en.htm
> 
> Also, what does it cost our NHS to process all these refunds?


Everything the NHAP forewarned prior to the GE is coming to pass. If you care about the future of our NHS listen to them Rona. The NHS isnt in crisis because of health tourism or migrants. Its not the EU starving it of funding, dismantling it & selling it off - its the tories.

UK is a net beneficiary of health tourism. Immigrants account for 4.5% of the population in England, but they are responsible for less than 2% of NHS expenditure: https://www.rsm.ac.uk/about-us/medi...ion-bill-will-pose-risk-to-public-health.aspx


----------



## noushka05

I haven't fact checked this yet, but someone I have a great deal of respect for has just shared it twitter so I'm assuming its accurate.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> I haven't fact checked this yet


Why change the habits of a lifetime?

Lisa who ?


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Lisa who ?


Trump!:Hilarious

Not all Trumps are bad LOL


----------



## CuddleMonster

noushka05 said:


> Trump!:Hilarious
> 
> Not all Trumps are bad LOL


Though if I were her, I'd be changing my surname!


----------



## MilleD

Who is this Trump person? I work for a large local authority. I can assure you that we are not getting EU funding to run. Far from it, ERDF funding has reduced massively in recent years.

We have also not become a charity


----------



## kimthecat

@noushka05
The power stations and fracking and big business are already happening.
We're an over crowded island ,I mentioned this in an earlier post.

we're short on housing , the government want to build hundreds of thousands of houses each year
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/21/1m-more-homes-in-england-by-2020-government

Where are they going to build them?
If you have that many houses you need more energy , you need more jobs and business. more transport links , motorways , etc 
The government has relaxed planning rules and over rides the local authority and our precious green belt is being built on. .
For example Pinewood studios , massive expansion was refused at first by the slough council but the government over rode them maybe because they are building some houses too. Its beautiful country there.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...os-green-belt-expansion-gets-green-light.html

Pinewood Studios, currently hosting production of the new Star Wars films, will double in size after the Government overruled local councillors to allow it to build on green belt land.

Eric Pickles, the Communities Secretary, approved the £200m proposals for new stages and storage buildings on Thursday, citing "a strong national commitment to economic growth and support for the film industry". He stepped after South Buckinghamshire Council has rejected them for a second time amid vocal local opposition last year.


----------



## rona

The difference here and the reason the argument about what will happen if we leave the EU is mute...........if it gets too bad we can vote in Labour or even the Greens. We can't do that in Europe 

Doesn't answer the problems of the financial sector but just look at how we've been protected in the last few years by the EU in that sector  and the banks are still playing with peoples futures now!


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Pinewood Studios, currently hosting production of the new Star Wars films, will double in size after the Government overruled local councillors to allow it to build on green belt land.
> 
> Eric Pickles, the Communities Secretary, approved the £200m proposals for new stages and storage buildings on Thursday, citing "a strong national commitment to economic growth and support for the film industry". He stepped after South Buckinghamshire Council has rejected them for a second time amid vocal local opposition last year.


Eric Pickles, now there's a man who single handedly destroyed local authorities.


----------



## kimthecat

@MilleD Did he eat them ? LOL


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> @MilleD Did he eat them ? LOL


Yup.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> This may be true but our NHS is still a very big draw for many because they do not have any upfront costs as they do in other member states.


So, who is at fault for that. Not an EU problem but a government choice.



> Also, what does it cost our NHS to process all these refunds?


No more than it costs other countries who support UK citizens abroad.



rona said:


> The difference here and the reason the argument about what will happen if we leave the EU is mute...........if it gets too bad we can vote in Labour or even the Greens. We can't do that in Europe






has some interesting points about EU and democracy. Do you really expect the Greens to be voted into power in your lifetime. I certainly do not. The UK needs proportional representation similar to how MEP's are voted in.



> Doesn't answer the problems of the financial sector but just look at how we've been protected in the last few years by the EU in that sector  and the banks are still playing with peoples futures now!


Yet the EU is pushing for change and protection. It's trying to implement bank bonus restrictions. Guess which country is blocking these protections and restrictions. The good old UK which apparantly has no power whatsoever in the EU. Strange that they do for something like banks.


----------



## Goblin

Here's a fun one for people who don't want to look into details:

Who's for staying in the EU
• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• The idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke
• John Cleese

No wonder Gove says "we've had enough of experts".


----------



## MilleD

Goblin said:


> Here's a fun one for people who don't want to look into details:
> 
> Who's for staying in the EU
> • Governor of the Bank of England
> • International Monetary Fund
> • Institute for Fiscal Studies
> • Confederation of British Industry
> • Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
> • President of the United States of America
> • Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
> • President of China
> • Prime Minister of India
> • Prime Minister of Canada
> • Prime Minister of Australia
> • Prime Minister of Japan
> • Prime Minister of New Zealand
> • The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
> • Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
> • All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
> • Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
> • The Prime Minister of the UK
> • The leader of the Labour Party
> • The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
> • The Leader of the Green Party
> • The Leader of the Scottish National Party
> • The leader of Plaid Cymru
> • Leader of Sinn Fein
> • Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
> • The Secretary General of the TUC
> • Unison
> • National Union of Students
> • National Union of Farmers
> • Stephen Hawking
> • Chief Executive of the NHS
> • 300 of the most prominent international historians
> • Director of Europol
> • David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
> • Former Directors of GCHQ
> • Secretary General of Nato
> • Church of England
> • Church in Scotland
> • Church in Wales
> • Friends of the Earth
> • Greenpeace
> • Director General of the World Trade Organisation
> • WWF
> • World Bank
> • OECD
> 
> Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:
> 
> • Boris Johnson, who probably doesn't really care either way, but knows he'll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
> • A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
> • The idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
> • Leader of UKIP
> • BNP
> • Britain First
> • Donald Trump
> • Keith Chegwin
> • David Icke
> • John Cleese
> 
> No wonder Gove says "we've had enough of experts".


See this is the sort of rubbish that makes me want to vote leave.


----------



## noushka05

CuddleMonster said:


> Though if I were her, I'd be changing my surname!


It wasn't the best name even before Donald came along



MilleD said:


> Who is this Trump person? I work for a large local authority. I can assure you that we are not getting EU funding to run. Far from it, ERDF funding has reduced massively in recent years.
> 
> We have also not become a charity


Your authority is lucky. But as the government continue to shrink the state you may not be so fortunate.

Through 17 national and regional programmes, the United Kingdom has been allocated *EUR 16.42 billion* from ESI Funds over the period 2014-2020. With a national contribution of *EUR 10.87 billion*, the United Kingdom has a total budget of *EUR 27.29 billion* to be invested in various areas, from *SME support,* sustainable employment, the *low-carbon economy, *sustainable land management in agriculture and forestry, *energy efficiency, active inclusion *and* education and training*

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy...ctsheet/esi_funds_country_factsheet_uk_en.pdf

And your schools may not have rely on charitable status - yet. The governments goal is to turn all public schools into acadamies - http://www.thirdsector.co.uk/academ...status-tough-going/governance/article/1365012



kimthecat said:


> @noushka05
> The power stations and fracking and big business are already happening.
> We're an over crowded island ,I mentioned this in an earlier post.
> 
> we're short on housing , the government want to build hundreds of thousands of houses each year
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/21/1m-more-homes-in-england-by-2020-government
> 
> Where are they going to build them?
> If you have that many houses you need more energy , you need more jobs and business. more transport links , motorways , etc
> The government has relaxed planning rules and over rides the local authority and our precious green belt is being built on. .
> For example Pinewood studios , massive expansion was refused at first by the slough council but the government over rode them maybe because they are building some houses too. Its beautiful country there.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...os-green-belt-expansion-gets-green-light.html
> 
> Pinewood Studios, currently hosting production of the new Star Wars films, will double in size after the Government overruled local councillors to allow it to build on green belt land.
> 
> Eric Pickles, the Communities Secretary, approved the £200m proposals for new stages and storage buildings on Thursday, citing "a strong national commitment to economic growth and support for the film industry". He stepped after South Buckinghamshire Council has rejected them for a second time amid vocal local opposition last year.


I havent had chance to read all the posts Kim. Fracking isnt happening as yet. And this government vetoed EU attempts to control fracking. The green belt is only being trashed because this government is 'cutting red tape' that once protected it - it has nothing to do with migrants. They aren't even building social housing - they are selling off whats left of the social housing we've got. Most new migrants could never afford to buy a house, most live in rented accommodation - https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/uk-migrants-and-private-rented-sector They are being used as a scapegoat for everything & its just letting this government off the hook.

Eric Pickles is an absolute disgrace - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/sep/05/george-osborne-motorway-sustainable-development


----------



## kimthecat

@Goblin I'm not spending any more time googling but I'm pretty sure that there are more reputable Leave people than those on your list !

As to ex prime ministers ,well ,we have Tony Blair , who lied to the world and created a mess in the Middle east and Major who f+cked up and created a financial mess devaluing the pound in 1992 with Black Wednesday .

.https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/sep/13/black-wednesday-20-years-pound-erm


----------



## Goblin

MilleD said:


> See this is the sort of rubbish that makes me want to vote leave.


So you dispute all those people and experts all agree that we should stay in the EU? Or is it you dispute the descriptions of Johnson, IDS and Gove?



kimthecat said:


> As to ex prime ministers ,well ,we have Tony Blair , who lied to the world and created a mess in the Middle east


I agree, we also have Cameron, then again they will not be unelected people holding power after the referendum either.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Your authority is lucky. But as the government continue to shrink the state you may not be so fortunate.
> 
> Through 17 national and regional programmes, the United Kingdom has been allocated *EUR 16.42 billion* from ESI Funds over the period 2014-2020. With a national contribution of *EUR 10.87 billion*, the United Kingdom has a total budget of *EUR 27.29 billion* to be invested in various areas, from *SME support,* sustainable employment, the *low-carbon economy, *sustainable land management in agriculture and forestry, *energy efficiency, active inclusion *and* education and training*
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy...ctsheet/esi_funds_country_factsheet_uk_en.pdf
> 
> And your schools may not have rely on charitable status - yet. The governments goal is to turn all public schools into acadamies - http://www.thirdsector.co.uk/academ...status-tough-going/governance/article/1365012


An awful lot of European funding in the UK is to ensure we comply with EU law though. Just read the ERDF material.

My Authority has had to find millions of pounds worth of savings in the last few years, that's got nothing to do with leaving the EU. It's already happening. And our money is having to stretch further because of 'refugees' who should already have claimed asylum in the European country they landed in.

And don't get me started on academies. This makes me glad I don't have children. The 'Charity' status of the enterprises running them is an absolute sham and just a way to skim money off the schools that should be spent educating the kids. Shocking misuse of public money.


----------



## MilleD

Goblin said:


> So you dispute all those people and experts all agree that we should stay in the EU? Or is it you dispute the descriptions of Johnson, IDS and Gove?


I dispute the whole way it's portrayed. And really, those are the only people backing the leave campaign? It's the spread of misinformation that riles me. No wonder people are confused.


----------



## Goblin

MilleD said:


> I dispute the whole way it's portrayed. And really, those are the only people backing the leave campaign? It's the spread of misinformation that riles me. No wonder people are confused.


So immigrants are not being misrepresented, democracy and bureaucracy in the EU is not being misrepresented, the benefits of leaving the EU is not being misrepresented. All by the leave campaign at the top level. Tell me, 350million to be spent on the NHS. Is that true or blatantly false?

Name me one major body of experts who support the leave campaign. I can add letters from various academia groups to the remain list.


----------



## MilleD

Goblin said:


> So immigrants are not being misrepresented, democracy and bureaucracy in the EU is not being misrepresented, the benefits of leaving the EU is not being misrepresented. All by the leave campaign at the top level. Tell me, 350million to be spent on the NHS. Is that true or blatantly false?
> 
> Name me one major body of experts who support the leave campaign. I can add letters from various academia groups to the remain list.


What, people who aren't afraid for their jobs and lifestyles if we leave?


----------



## Goblin

So you can't list groups who support leave.

I am sure people groups like the church of england aren't worried by their jobs and lifestyles like many of those listed who support remain. You never answered the 350million question either.

What is disliked is the original post highlights a lot of the division in stark contrast.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> The green belt is only being trashed because this government is 'cutting red tape' that once protected it - it has nothing to do with migrants. They aren't even building social housing - they are selling off whats left of the social housing we've got. Most new migrants could never afford to buy a house, most live in rented accommodation - https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/uk-migrants-and-private-rented-sector They are being used as a scapegoat for everything & its just letting this government off the hook.


  Whoa ! I think we need to back up here . I don't have time at the mo to do a proper comment but I said we are an overcrowded island , we have 55 to 60 million people and not enough housing . I'm not apportioning blame here . There has never been enough decent housing for people going back hundreds of years .


----------



## MilleD

Pretty sure the £350m thing was a 'we could' spend it on the NHS. Misquoting doesn't help either you are correct.

Personally I don't give a toss what the church thinks. Maybe they should use some of their vast wealth to help the NHS?

Edited as I can't spell.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> So you can't list groups who support leave.
> 
> I am sure people groups like the church of england aren't worried by their jobs and lifestyles like many of those listed who support remain. You never answered the 350million question either.
> 
> What is disliked is the original post highlights a lot of the division in stark contrast.


Maybe the aggression that we get from Remainers helps to keep us on track. And personally I prefer the church to keep out of anything political. And Sinn Fein, really?

You are correct that there are no illustrious groups who are supporting Brexit, but there are enough business leaders and military heads to make me think that a lot of the Remain claims are Hyperbole. I'm perfectly happy with my choice, I just wish you lot would stop haranguing


----------



## Goblin

​How about blaming the people responsible for NHS funding, our government including some of those leading the leave campaign. At least leave the NHS out of the EU discussion as it's not relevant. Yet from the leave side you seem to support lies.

MiffyMoo, Sinn Fein, yes really. Don't you think they do not recognise the implications. http://www.theguardian.com/politics...irish-border-after-brexit-eu-northern-ireland


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> ​How about blaming the people responsible for NHS funding, our government including some of those leading the leave campaign. At least leave the NHS out of the EU discussion as it's not relevant. Yet from the leave side you seem to support lies.
> 
> MiffyMoo, Sinn Fein, yes really. Don't you think they do not recognise the implications. http://www.theguardian.com/politics...irish-border-after-brexit-eu-northern-ireland


I have zero respect for a party who use violence to further their agenda


----------



## KittenKong

A possible future situation to consider: Border controls introduced for Ireland. Scotland holds another independence referendum, win the yes vote and re-join the EU.
Border controls may then be needed between Scotland and England!


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> I have zero respect for a party who use violence to further their agenda


I agree, that's why Farage's alliance with Poland's Congress of the New Right (KNP), whose leader has said women are too stupid to vote and doubts that Hitler knew of the Holocaust should be a concern. As is the support for leave from the far right in the UK. In fact the whole immigrant issue is based on xenophobia when you come down to it rather than the EU. No wonder trump supports BREXIT, the are using basically the same campaign scripts.



kimthecat said:


> Whoa ! I think we need to back up here . I don't have time at the mo to do a proper comment but I said we are an overcrowded island , we have 55 to 60 million people and not enough housing . I'm not apportioning blame here . There has never been enough decent housing for people going back hundreds of years .


Preferential trade with EU = keep free movement. That will likely be non negotiable. So we go the WTO option which the Director General of the World Trade Organisation has warned about in terms of how easy it would be, length of time to get agreements and the end results.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Goblin said:


> Here's a fun one for people who don't want to look into details:
> 
> Who's for staying in the EU
> • Governor of the Bank of England
> • International Monetary Fund
> • Institute for Fiscal Studies
> • Confederation of British Industry
> • Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
> • President of the United States of America
> • Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
> • President of China
> • Prime Minister of India
> • Prime Minister of Canada
> • Prime Minister of Australia
> • Prime Minister of Japan
> • Prime Minister of New Zealand
> • The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
> • Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
> • All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
> • Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
> • The Prime Minister of the UK
> • The leader of the Labour Party
> • The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
> • The Leader of the Green Party
> • The Leader of the Scottish National Party
> • The leader of Plaid Cymru
> • Leader of Sinn Fein
> • Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
> • The Secretary General of the TUC
> • Unison
> • National Union of Students
> • National Union of Farmers
> • Stephen Hawking
> • Chief Executive of the NHS
> • 300 of the most prominent international historians
> • Director of Europol
> • David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
> • Former Directors of GCHQ
> • Secretary General of Nato
> • Church of England
> • Church in Scotland
> • Church in Wales
> • Friends of the Earth
> • Greenpeace
> • Director General of the World Trade Organisation
> • WWF
> • World Bank
> • OECD
> 
> Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:
> 
> • Boris Johnson, who probably doesn't really care either way, but knows he'll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
> • A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
> • The idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
> • Leader of UKIP
> • BNP
> • Britain First
> • Donald Trump
> • Keith Chegwin
> • David Icke
> • John Cleese
> 
> No wonder Gove says "we've had enough of experts".


I'm sorry but you lost my respect for your argument when you felt a need to make caustic remarks against those who want to leave but failed to do so against those wishing to stay. Many of whom - may I point out - are just as guilty of 'political crimes' against the country.

Your lack of ability to just present the facts, without adding your personal opinion, has undermined your post.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I think there is an air of panic in the remain camp at the moment as the polls are suggesting there is a significant increase in people wanting to vote leave. 

What people are sick of is the constant rhetoric and scaremongering from the remain camp. Osborne making threats so on and so on.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'd wish I could go to sleep and wake up next Thursday, all the lies on both side getting on my nerves.


----------



## MoggyBaby

stockwellcat said:


> I think there is an air of panic in the remain camp at the moment as the polls are suggesting there is a significant increase in people wanting to vote leave.
> 
> What people are sick of is the constant rhetoric and scaremongering from the remain camp. Osborne making threats so on and so on.


That would be the same George Osborne who has had the country on its knees under the guise of 'austerity' for the last 6 years and has still managed to increase the national debt to the highest it has ever been since records began......???

Yeah, I must take on board what he has to say!!! enguin


----------



## Goblin

Don't know you MoggyBaby so no skin off my nose. Facts are there. Those who support leave, which you've already claimed, ignore facts along with experts. They'll dismiss and blame anyone for presenting information using any excuse. Lines like "losing my respect", "you don't live here" and "biased" being the most common. Doesn't change the facts or message. Don't you find it ironic that those claiming they can save the NHS on leaving are ones who have a history of wanting to destroy it? At least Cameron isn't claiming he'll save the NHS if you agree to back them in the referendum.

Happy Paws, ignore policians, Johnson, Cameron, Gove, Osbourne, Farage etc etc. Look at the experts who are actually saying to leave and stay in. If this referendum has shown one thing, it's politicians are not to be trusted and they have contempt for the public.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> I agree, that's why Farage's alliance with Poland's Congress of the New Right (KNP), whose leader has said women are too stupid to vote and doubts that Hitler knew of the Holocaust should be a concern. As is the support for leave from the far right in the UK. In fact the whole immigrant issue is based on xenophobia when you come down to it rather than the EU. No wonder trump supports BREXIT, the are using basically the same campaign scripts.
> 
> Preferential trade with EU = keep free movement. That will likely be non negotiable. So we go the WTO option which the Director General of the World Trade Organisation has warned about in terms of how easy it would be, length of time to get agreements and the end results.


Farage is not the only politician championing out, and everyone I know who are voting out are not far right - in fact, you are a shining example of how the majority of those voting in seem to be far more prejudiced than those voting out


----------



## rona

.......................


----------



## MilleD

Goblin said:


> "you don't live here"


Don't you? I missed that.

So should I really trust the opinion of someone who has no vested interest in what actually happens IN this country, and is probably only looking after the rights to remain OUT of the country?


----------



## kimthecat

> kimthecat said: ↑
> Whoa ! I think we need to back up here . I don't have time at the mo to do a proper comment but I said we are an overcrowded island , we have 55 to 60 million people and not enough housing . I'm not apportioning blame here . There has never been enough decent housing for people going back hundreds of years .





Goblin said:


> Preferential trade with EU = keep free movement. That will likely be non negotiable. So we go the WTO option which the Director General of the World Trade Organisation has warned about in terms of how easy it would be, length of time to get agreements and the end results.


Erm , Sorry I don't understand your post in response to mine . I'm not sure if its relevant to the original point that Noushka made

Noushka said that without the EU to stop them , the Tories will give the go a head for fracking , nuclear power stations and big business etc and I said that we might need them because as we will lack resources and need jobs and houses for all the people that live here , and her response sidetracted and the above was my response.
Any way enough of I said , she said . I need to reply properly to her post.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> So, who is at fault for that. Not an EU problem but a government choice.


No it's a UK choice that's been taken advantage of by other EU citizens. I don't blame them but it's crippling our NHS



Goblin said:


> No more than it costs other countries who support UK citizens abroad.


Of course it does as many more come here for treatment.



Goblin said:


> Do you really expect the Greens to be voted into power in your lifetime. I certainly do not


Probably not but at least we have that option. No option with most running EU



Goblin said:


> Yet the EU is pushing for change and protection. It's trying to implement bank bonus restrictions. Guess which country is blocking these protections and restrictions. The good old UK which apparantly has no power whatsoever in the EU. Strange that they do for something like banks.


Mmmm didn't they have to change the regulations fairly recently because they had been badly drafted and they were hurting poorer countries?

Fine for the likes of Germany, France and even the UK................

Have you a link to show that the UK has been standing in the way of banking restrictions and for what reason they may have done so?


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> .......................


 The best comment I've read so far . LOL


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I'd wish I could go to sleep and wake up next Thursday, all the lies on both side getting on my nerves.


Readers of a certain newspaper or two will probably be waking up to an edition featuring a two page Union Jack with the logo of that paper in the middle to celebrate the leave victory. They'll be encouraged to display it in the window and encourage street parties to celebrate Britain's independence.
Oh, I forgot the free stickers to cover up the EU symbol on car number plates.
Oh, happy days ahead.......


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> I havent had chance to read all the posts Kim. Fracking isnt happening as yet. And this government vetoed EU attempts to control fracking. The green belt is only being trashed because this government is 'cutting red tape' that once protected it - it has nothing to do with migrants. They aren't even building social housing - they are selling off whats left of the social housing we've got. Most new migrants could never afford to buy a house, most live in rented accommodation - https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/uk-migrants-and-private-rented-sector They are being used as a scapegoat for everything & its just letting this government off the hook.


Its hard to keep up with everything!

I don't think your response here is relevant to my post.
If the government are cutting red tape and allowing the green belt to be trashed then being in Europe wont stop that .

Whatever houses need be built , social , affordable or otherwise they need to go somewhere, green belt or not They need to go somewhere where there are jobs so you need big business and they need to have electric and water supplies ,
wind farms wont sustain the amount of houses that need to be built. .

A nuclear power station is being built In the west country or was , the french were supposed to be investing in it . being in the EU hasn't stopped it .

will Labour cut red tape and trash green belt and the rest of the countryside with their plans to build 5 new towns ?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/24/labour-pledges-five-new-towns-housing

The new London mayor Sadiq khan pledged to build 80,000 houses a year in London.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...s-housing-crisis-how-khan-and-goldsmith-stac/

When they run out of pubs and garages and childrens parks to build on , where they will they build them . They will keep knocking down family homes , the semis and build three/four storey blocks of flats that dwarf the streets that block the skyline and not have enough parking for each flat thanks to that arselington red ken .

What do they mean by london anyway , one day the whole of the inside of the M25 will be one concrete block .

I have some photos that i will try to add of the building work opposite and the misery it has caused for 18 momths , before that it was the school down the road, before that etc etc . We have cross rail , HS2 and a third run way to look forward to.
The point was made that what do you expect its london, but soon it will be other cities and towns near you .
(Perhaps this is OT but I need to rant, sorry )

six days a week and bank holidays from 7 am , noise ,banging, dust, vibrations , road being dug up to reach water pipes and electric countless times.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Readers of a certain newspaper or two will probably be waking up to an edition featuring a two page Union Jack with the logo of that paper in the middle to celebrate the leave victory. They'll be encouraged to display it in the window and encourage street parties to celebrate Britain's independence.
> Oh, I forgot the free stickers to cover up the EU symbol on car number plates.
> Oh, happy days ahead.......


The problem is.....that some people so thick they believe everything certain news papers print.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Happy Paws said:


> The problem is.....that some people so thick they believe everything certain news papers print.


And there are equally thick people who believe everything OTHER newspapers tell them!


----------



## MiffyMoo

MoggyBaby said:


> And there are equally thick people who believe everything OTHER newspapers tell them!


Which is why it's so important to do your own research and not get bogged down in the "they don't agree with me, therefore they're thick" mentality. Everyone has their reasons for voting they way that they do, and if you discount anyone who thinks differently to you, you are going to miss out on some facts or viewpoints that could possibly give you pause to stop and think for a minute.


----------



## Lexiedhb

I think this sums my feelings up perfectly.......


----------



## westie~ma

Enjoyed watching Andrew Neil getting upperty with Ed Vaizey today on the politicking show, all cos he refused to answer the questions put to him. 

MP swerving questions, whatever next.


----------



## rona

https://audioboom.com/boos/4694349-david-handley-chairman-of-farmers-for-action

This is the farmers view......not the government run NFU or the fat cat land owners


----------



## MiffyMoo

rona said:


> https://audioboom.com/boos/4694349-david-handley-chairman-of-farmers-for-action


Oh boo, I'm at work, so can't listen to this


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> So you can't list groups who support leave.
> .


 Well , according to the Daily Mirror , Cameron says ISIS and Putin back Brexit !  

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/isis-backs-brexit-david-cameron-7988647

Blimey!


----------



## KittenKong

I wish the late great Warren Mitchell was still with us to reprise his role as Alf Garnett. A conversation between him, for Leave obviously and his son in law, for remain would've made fantastic comedy television.


----------



## kimthecat

> @noushka hey aren't even building social housing - they are selling off whats left of the social housing we've got. Most new migrants could never afford to buy a house, most live in rented accommodation -


You know whats make me laugh , is all the rabid labour supporters that lived on my estate who denounced Thatcher then bought their council houses , sold them at massive profit and then swanned off to private estates . Hypocrites. We bought ours but at least I still live here.

Most local people here cant afford to buy either and they cant get council houses or they are stuck in ones that are too small , or they are in temporary ones or living in bed and breakfast.

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/local-news/families-face-being-made-homeless-5968720

Housing associations own properties that they rent out at higher rate than the council ones , they also manage private rents on behalf of landlords and the rent is the same as for private rents .
My OH sister and her children lost their private home through her ex husbands debts , she was in temporary housing managed by a Housing association on behalf of a landlord and her rent was £1200 per month , she was there for 4 years and no offer of a council house m once her children were 18 she had no hope in hell of getting one . 
A neighbours daughter is in a two bed with two boys and a younger girl , they share a bedroom and wont be eligible for a three bed until the girl is 12 and her brothers will be 14 and 16. There is still no guarantee they will get one anyway.


----------



## MiffyMoo

And here is the ugly face of Remain. I'm quite happy to post this, given how much grief Brexiters get, as apparently we're racist and stupid. At least we're not calling hard working fishermen w*nkers

http://order-order.com/2016/06/15/remainers-disembark-geldofs-boat-in-disgust/


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> So you can't list groups who support leave.
> 
> .


 I know this wasn't aimed at me but a quick google and found this

http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/about-us/

I'm sure there's more .


----------



## stockwellcat.

MoggyBaby said:


> That would be the same George Osborne who has had the country on its knees under the guise of 'austerity' for the last 6 years and has still managed to increase the national debt to the highest it has ever been since records began......???
> 
> Yeah, I must take on board what he has to say!!! enguin


Yes that's who I meant and he is now threatening huge spending cuts if the UK does vote to leave on the 23rd June. His own party are prepared to oppose these cuts to stop him putting them through.

Talk about punish the British people because they want to vote to leave. 65 (they only need 50 signatures) Lords, Labour MPs, Conservative MPs and others have signed a letter to stop Osborne putting these cuts through, now being labelled "Punishment Cuts". This information is factually correct as from 16:39 this afternoon (Time and date stamped on this post).

Him and his pal Cameron may not be in power long after the Referendum if the UK votes to leave. There is alot of speculation and talk that the Referendum will trigger a General Election.


----------



## Honeys mum

kimthecat said:


> I'm sure there's more .


There's a few mentioned in this article as well.

Blow for George Osborne: 300 top business leaders SUPPORT Brexit | City & Business | Finance | Daily Express


----------



## Honeys mum

The latest scaremongering tactic.

George Osborne's 'emergency Brexit Budget' causes fury among Tory MPs | Politics | News | Daily Express


----------



## kimthecat

A lot of Labour supporters in the North are saying they will vote Leave according to the BBC news .

I haven't seen anyone put up Leave or Stay posters up in their windows or stickers on heir cars.
I'm surprised at that , perhaps they can't be bothered or don't feel strongly one way or another.


----------



## Sacrechat

This link takes you to a BBC website where you can put in your postcode to see if your MP is voting to leave or remain: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946

It only shows those MPs who have disclosed their intention, though.


----------



## Honeys mum

kimthecat said:


> I haven't seen anyone put up Leave or Stay posters up in their windows or stickers on heir cars.
> I'm surprised at that , perhaps they can't be bothered or don't feel strongly one way or another.


We have a Vote Leave poster in our window, and two in the car.

We have just spent a week on the Lincolnshire coast, there are Vote Leave posters everywhere there.
As soon as you hit Lincolnshire there 's lot's of them.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


> We have a Vote Leave poster in our window, and two in the car.
> 
> We have just spent a week on the Lincolnshire coast, there are Vote Leave posters everywhere there.
> As soon as you hit Lincolnshire there 's lot's of them.


I don't need someones silly poster to tell me how to vote.


----------



## kimthecat

@Honeys mum What a difference !


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> I don't need someones silly poster to tell me how to vote.


Neither do I Happy Paws, just wanted to have one, as we strongly believe we should be out, and knew long before all this started.


----------



## Honeys mum

kimthecat said:


> @Honeys mum What a difference !


Yes Kimthecat, we were ver suprised at how manywe saw.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


> Neither do I Happy Paws, just wanted to have one, as we strongly believe we should be out, and knew long before all this started.


That's why I won't try and push my opinion on other people to vote the same way as me, it's up to them how they vote.


----------



## MoggyBaby

kimthecat said:


> A lot of Labour supporters in the North are saying they will vote Leave according to the BBC news .
> 
> *I haven't seen anyone put up Leave* or Stay posters up in their windows or stickers on heir cars.
> I'm surprised at that , perhaps they can't be bothered or don't feel strongly one way or another.


They seem to have sprung up in my town overnight. Driving out to work this morning I saw about half a dozen on a 1 mile stretch. Hubs said he saw loads last night coming home from work on the other side of town.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MoggyBaby said:


> They seem to have sprung up in my town overnight. Driving out to work this morning I saw about half a dozen on a 1 mile stretch. Hubs said he saw loads last night coming home from work on the other side of town.


I had a letter from the Labour party a few days ago with a Remain poster in it and a 2nd class return envelope inside. Guess what I did???

I wrote out a note saying you are targetting the wrong house, please remove me from your mailing list and here is your poster back 

I haven't seen any posters around here yet.


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> That's why I won't try and push my opinion on other people to vote the same way as me, it's up to them how they vote.


I don't see having a poster in my window as pushing my opinion on other people Happypaws. I don't mind who knows which way I will be voting on this . But in a general election, I would never tell anyone except my family which party I vote for. That is between me and the ballot box.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

I have seen a few 'Leave' posters around. Part of my job is to visit peoples homes from time to time and a few are accosting me with their views (I give no opinion, I am not there to discuss politics!) and one lady (40 something ex East Ender - one tough lady lol) especially wanted to tell me exactly why she was voting leave ... which included a polish man she worked with who got a council house (he then brought his family over) whilst her son and his wife remained on the waiting list. Rightfully or wrongfully there is a lot of passion out there.

One thing i do know is that whatever the decision on June 23rd (and I do think that although it will be close the Remain camp will win out in the end) there are going to be some angry people and far from pacifying (and pleasing) the people by giving them a chance to vote in this referendum, Mr Cameron et al have inflamed a lot of feelings which aren't going to go away .....and what gets me is why on earth did he do it.........

What was he hoping to achieve? Did he really believe that everyone would touch their caps respectfully and vote remain because 'we know what's best for you'. Did he (has he) really put the future of the country at stake (to listen to the arguments against leaving) or does he actually believe that we would be ok either way. If it all *does* centre around the intricacies of finance then it should *never *have gone to public vote...that's akin to asking the voting public to set an inflation rate. But does it?

A fascinating bit of (socioeconomic) history in the making. I'm enjoying the watching.

J


----------



## kimthecat

Gove was on question time special last night , just him answering questions from the audience and he was impressive , very calm and polite and knowledgeable , no wonder cam didnt want to go head to head with him.


----------



## KittenKong

I guess Mr Cameron doesn't want to be seen falling out with his friends on TV. I agree though, he should go head to head with others from his own party. Jeremy Corbyn too should be prepared to share platforms with political opposites if united on this very important issue.


kimthecat said:


> You know whats make me laugh , is all the rabid labour supporters that lived on my estate who denounced Thatcher then bought their council houses , sold them at massive profit and then swanned off to private estates . Hypocrites. We bought ours but at least I still live here.
> .


Couldn't agree more. Many are now against the sale of council housing. Definitely a case of, "Do as I say, not do as I do"....


----------



## MiffyMoo

This has me crying with laughter. It could only happen in the UK

https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewe...tely-mad-today?utm_term=.abPjQBlwG#.vqLJ3eQ2K


----------



## Happy Paws2

Brilliant....sums it doesn't it


----------



## CanIgoHome

I was on Facebook yesterday the local gossip page was talking about the EU and most have said there voting in because the Gov scare tactics is working with them because the world will end if we leave
the one thing it confirms the me is that most people in that area are thick which is something i have know for years


----------



## KittenKong

That's a bit strong. There's been "scare" tactics from both sides of the debate. MiffyMoo is spot on here


MiffyMoo said:


> Which is why it's so important to do your own research and not get bogged down in the "they don't agree with me, therefore they're thick" mentality. Everyone has their reasons for voting they way that they do, and if you discount anyone who thinks differently to you, you are going to miss out on some facts or viewpoints that could possibly give you pause to stop and think for a minute.


Only time will tell if the "scare" stories are correct or not from whichever side that wins.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> whichever side that wins


Not getting at you but, so many people keep saying this type of thing. There isn't really a win situation. It's got so ridiculously nasty, whatever the outcome that we are all the losers


----------



## MiffyMoo

rona said:


> Not getting at you but, so many people keep saying this type of thing. There isn't really a win situation. It's got so ridiculously nasty, whatever the outcome that we are all the losers


I do think that, if we stay in, we will have lost any leverage we may have ever had, so any of our requests will be met with a "whatever" type attitude.


----------



## rona

MiffyMoo said:


> I do think that, if we stay in, we will have lost any leverage we may have ever had, so any of our requests will be met with a "whatever" type attitude.


Agreed


----------



## MiffyMoo

Excellent interview with Jim Mellon

https://audioboom.com/boos/4706044-...retweet&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook


----------



## kimthecat

MiffyMoo said:


> I do think that, if we stay in, we will have lost any leverage we may have ever had, so any of our requests will be met with a "whatever" type attitude.


yes , I think so too. TBH I think that attitude is already there.


----------



## CanIgoHome

Just find this on Facebook a picture says a thousand words


----------



## stockwellcat.

All campaigning for the referendum has been suspended due to the murder of Jo Cox MP who died today. She was attacked in her own constituency and sadly passed away due to the horrific injuries she sustained, they have the murderer in custody.

http://news.sky.com/story/1713039/mp-jo-cox-dies-after-being-shot-and-stabbed

RIP Jo Cox MP.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> I do think that, if we stay in, we will have lost any leverage we may have ever had, so any of our requests will be met with a "whatever" type attitude.


I think, if we stay in, that it will be by a wafer thin margin, and that will shake up the decision makers in the EU. There have already been comments by foreign EU officials / MEPs - I'm sure you've seen them - saying that this is a wake-up call and that they must address the issues.

Why would our position be weakened? A Remain vote does not close off the opportunity for another one later on. It is only a Leave vote that burns our bridges.


----------



## CanIgoHome

thats so sad I feel for her family and the kids she has left behind 

R.I.P Jo Cox MP


----------



## CanIgoHome

there a page on Facebook telling people to take a BLACK pen to the voting booth too on the 23rd to stop your vote being changed too


----------



## rona

CanIgoHome said:


> Just find this on Facebook a picture says a thousand words


I don't like that. I'm sure it's nothing to do with the forces, just someones toy.



Arnie83 said:


> Why would our position be weakened? A Remain vote does not close off the opportunity for another one later on. It is only a Leave vote that burns our bridges.


Yeah.........and what politician in the future will risk it?


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/about-us/
> 
> I'm sure there's more .


Yep, 12% of economists support BREXIT. There will be individuals in all fields who support it.

Let's look at http://academicsforbritainineurope.org/economists/ for comparison.



Honeys mum said:


> There's a few mentioned in this article as well.
> 
> Blow for George Osborne: 300 top business leaders SUPPORT Brexit | City & Business | Finance | Daily Express


Yep, CBI mentions the main problem red tape encountered. Main piece of red tape is called workers rights restricting maximum hours worked, allowing maternity leave etc. Free market with no checks on companies is a dream for many companies.


----------



## MoggyBaby

CanIgoHome said:


> there a page on Facebook telling people to take a BLACK pen to the voting booth too on the 23rd to stop your vote being changed too


Something I have never given any thought to but, given the importance of next weeks vote, Mr Mogs and I will be taking our own black pens. Why take the risk....? Do you have a link to this please?


----------



## CanIgoHome

Not of the link but here a picture of the page on Facebook


----------



## MoggyBaby

CanIgoHome said:


> Not of the link but here a picture of the page on Facebook
> View attachment 274338


Got it, thank you. Duly shared....


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Yep, 12% of economists support BREXIT. There will be individuals in all fields who support it.
> 
> Let's look at http://academicsforbritainineurope.org/economists/ for comparison.
> .


The % comparison isn't the point . A list of Stay and Leave supporters was posted and when it was pointed out that others apart from Farage and Boris supported Leave you said to another poster



> So you can't list groups who support leave.


Well, more names have been listed and the original list is biased and silly.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Yeah.........and what politician in the future will risk it?


That's an intriguing question: Why do you see it as a risk?


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> The % comparison isn't the point .


I'd agree if the % difference was not so high. 12% vs 88% is not insignificant which means that it is a point.



> Well, more names have been listed and the original list is biased and silly.


I'm sure you can continue to add more names to both lists. Will not change the fundamental that the majority of experts in a wide range of fields support Remain. There's a reason Gove was so keen to push the idea of ignoring experts. Question is simple.. Listen to spin and lies from politicians or listen to experts who base opinion on facts.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> That's an intriguing question: Why do you see it as a risk?


Purely because of all the bad feeling this time and the probability of a few politicians losing their jobs through it. Not many would put their head on the block.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

CanIgoHome said:


> there a page on Facebook telling people to take a BLACK pen to the voting booth too on the 23rd to stop your vote being changed too


Indeed EVERYONE who intends to cast a vote please do take a black pen. Whichever way the vote goes the losing side will immediately start saying the votes were changed. In vote wins, out declare votes where changed, Out wins, in declares votes where changed and it will go on for bloody weeks, please spare us from all that nonsense!


----------



## newfiesmum

Out, most definitely. My husband didn't work all his life and pay huge amounts of tax for it to be handed over to some bureaucracy in Europe to do with whatever the hell they like. Cameron is saying that he has made special agreements that if we stay in, immigrants won't be entitled to NHS or benefits for four years, but if someone is ill or dying, or falls under a bus, we are not going to turn them away because they can't pay. I say out and they can blow up the Channel Tunnel while they are about it before it is too late.:Spiderman


----------



## Arnie83

newfiesmum said:


> Out, most definitely. My husband didn't work all his life and pay huge amounts of tax for it to be handed over to some bureaucracy in Europe to do with whatever the hell they like. Cameron is saying that he has made special agreements that if we stay in, immigrants won't be entitled to NHS or benefits for four years, but if someone is ill or dying, or falls under a bus, we are not going to turn them away because they can't pay. I say out and they can blow up the Channel Tunnel while they are about it before it is too late.:Spiderman


Wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind, but ...

The increased business we do due to our membership of the EU brings in more extra taxes than we pay in membership fees (which of course is a lot less than the £350 m quoted, but I assume you already know that). So there is a net gain to our very own bureaucracy to do with whatever the hell they like.

And NHS treatment is not going to be withheld from short-term migrants; it's the in-work benefits which are not being paid for 4 years.


----------



## newfiesmum

Arnie83 said:


> Wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind, but ...
> 
> The increased business we do due to our membership of the EU brings in more extra taxes than we pay in membership fees (which of course is a lot less than the £350 m quoted, but I assume you already know that). So there is a net gain to our very own bureaucracy to do with whatever the hell they like.
> 
> And NHS treatment is not going to be withheld from short-term migrants; it's the in-work benefits which are not being paid for 4 years.


That is not what David Cameron said only last week on tv. He said NHS and benefits would be withheld. If you are right and they are still going to get NHS benefits, that's even more reason to get out. We were a wealthy country with our dealings with the Commonwealth and the rest of the world; we don't need Europe. We were a great nation before and we can be one again.

Every time there is something we disagree with, like the single currency and everything else, our prime minister has to spend weeks changing their minds instead of governing the country for which he was voted prime minister. I have never wanted to be part of Europe and I never will, no matter what. We had the best education system in the world, the best health services in the world, no more. My friend had a heart attack recently; she has to wait until August to get an appointment with a cardiologist. I hope she lives that long.

They have changed the rules of our driving test despite being unable to navigate a road safely themselves, and are even trying to tell us what size motor we can have on our vacuum cleaners.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> I'd agree if the % difference was not so high. 12% vs 88% is not insignificant which means that it is a point.
> .





> - What is disliked is the original post highlights a lot of the division in stark contrast.


No , the point is you posted a mocking inaccurate "fun" list ,( BTW if it was meant to be fun, why leave out good old Bob Geldof? ) with a good chance of annoying Leave members . That's what is disliked

You insisted "Name me one major body of experts who support the leave campaign "

and you've been given a financial one , who are far more expert than the majority of groups on that list.
The fact that it isn't large enough for you doesn't matter . You asked and you got .

There's mocking in general from both sides ( not just on forums ) and it doesn't help rational discussion .


----------



## Arnie83

newfiesmum said:


> That is not what David Cameron said only last week on tv. He said NHS and benefits would be withheld. If you are right and they are still going to get NHS benefits, that's even more reason to get out. We were a wealthy country with our dealings with the Commonwealth and the rest of the world; we don't need Europe. We were a great nation before and we can be one again.
> 
> Every time there is something we disagree with, like the single currency and everything else, our prime minister has to spend weeks changing their minds instead of governing the country for which he was voted prime minister. I have never wanted to be part of Europe and I never will, no matter what. We had the best education system in the world, the best health services in the world, no more. My friend had a heart attack recently; she has to wait until August to get an appointment with a cardiologist. I hope she lives that long.
> 
> They have changed the rules of our driving test despite being unable to navigate a road safely themselves, and are even trying to tell us what size motor we can have on our vacuum cleaners.


Okay.

As I said I'm not going to try to change your mind. As a matter of interest you might want to google some of the things you've mentioned, but that's up to you.

I'll just say that from my point of view Britain is pretty great as it is, and I'm sorry that it isn't for you.


----------



## newfiesmum

Arnie83 said:


> Okay.
> 
> As I said I'm not going to try to change your mind. As a matter of interest you might want to google some of the things you've mentioned, but that's up to you.
> 
> I'll just say that from my point of view Britain is pretty great as it is, and I'm sorry that it isn't for you.


Britain is indeed pretty great as it is. It is probably the greatest country to live in, which is why all the non British people want to come and live here. If I google the things I've mentioned, I will get a lot of propaganda put about the likes of Cameron and others who talk a lot of unsubstantiated twaddle to support their cause. Britain is great, but it was a lot greater before we joined Europe. Perhaps you are not old enough to remember that? I am. Geez, I've even seen posters that tell me if I vote to leave I must be racist! What are these people on?


----------



## newfiesmum

And another thing; while my preference is not solely about immigration, when I was working as a driving instructor I came across a lot of people who came from other countries and when asked why they had come here, their answers were very often for the education. So is Cameron also going to deny education to people who haven't been here for four years? We have a lot of services in this country which we have paid into and therefore get for 'free' - other countries have to pay for those services, which is another reason they are weighing down our little island.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> *I'll just say that from my point of view Britain is pretty great as it is, and I'm sorry that it isn't for you.*


I disagree that Britain is great at the moment. It is far from being great.

The in campaigners fail to realise or acknowledge that EU is moving towards creating one single Government and powerhouse where everything can be controlled from. Britain will be told that if we stay in the EU to be quiet and put up with the consequences of staying in the EU. Remember the so called deal Cameron got will be revoked and there is nothing we can do about it if it is. Yes we have a right to veto but that means naff as we will be told to put up with things as we decided to vote stay.

If we leave (which I hope this time next week we will have this result) we remove our country from the control of the EU (yes we can still travel and trade in Europe if we wish to) and stop them controlling us and make or country great again.

The EU have repeatedly told us we can't keep dipping our toes in the water and have the best of both worlds. We are either in the EU (committed to the EU and there rules and laws) or Out.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> Wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind


Now this is the funniest thing on this thread 

Apologies for the very slight misquoting


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> I disagree that Britain is great at the moment. It is far from being great..


Britain hasn't been great since we won WWII and I'm not so sure it was even then.

It has nothing to do with the EU.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Britain hasn't been great since we won WWII and I'm not so sure it was even then.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the EU.


I'm intrigued to know why you think that?

Would you rather live elsewhere and which country do you think has things mainly right?


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Would you rather live elsewhere and which country do you think has things mainly right?


If we were both younger with no doubt we would move to France we have friends who live there and we have spent holidays with them and if it wasn't for health reasons and the thought of packing up and moving is now beyond us.

Yes I know France has it's problems, but life would be so much better there.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> If we were both younger with no doubt we would move to France we have friends who live there and we have spent holidays with them and if it wasn't for health reasons and the thought of packing up and moving is now beyond us.
> 
> Yes I know France has it's problems, but life would be so much better there.


In what way? I know they aren't such a crowded country but apart from space, what is better?


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> In what way? I know they aren't such a crowded country but apart from space,* what is better?*


The vineyards and the sex shops.


----------



## kimthecat

If you're still not sure which way to vote watch the special edition of Eurotrash on channel 4. LOL

 
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...ash-is-back-for-one-night-only-follow-it-live


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> In what way? I know they aren't such a crowded country but apart from space, what is better?


Everything!!!!


----------



## newfiesmum

Happy Paws said:


> Everything!!!!


A cousin of ours moved to France when he retired some years ago because the property was so cheap compared to here. They seem to like it, but then I doubt they can afford the same lifestyle if they moved back here.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Happy Paws said:


> Everything!!!!


Well as France has the highest number of strikes ...many of which cripple their infrastructure ...the workers obviously don't think everything is so perfect 

Their unemployment level is also twice ours, too. (10% as opposed to 5%)

And their national wage is considerably lower ...less than Germany's and a lot less than ours. France still has lots of villages which I love and country life (and property) is cheaper (which is great if you have money and don't need a job or are doing the back to basics thing that so many Brits do when they go to live in France) but town life isn't so different. Or cheaper. In my experience.

And of course their health system requires mandatory insurance. And you pay for extras.

Maybe I am lucky but I am a happy bunny where I live ...with or without the EU.

J


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I disagree that Britain is great at the moment. It is far from being great.
> 
> The in campaigners fail to realise or acknowledge that EU is moving towards creating one single Government and powerhouse where everything can be controlled from. Britain will be told that if we stay in the EU to be quiet and put up with the consequences of staying in the EU. Remember the so called deal Cameron got will be revoked and there is nothing we can do about it if it is. Yes we have a right to veto but that means naff as we will be told to put up with things as we decided to vote stay.
> 
> If we leave (which I hope this time next week we will have this result) we remove our country from the control of the EU (yes we can still travel and trade in Europe if we wish to) and stop them controlling us and make or country great again.
> 
> The EU have repeatedly told us we can't keep dipping our toes in the water and have the best of both worlds. We are either in the EU (committed to the EU and there rules and laws) or Out.


We will be told to be quiet and put up with the consequences?

Cameron's deal will be revoked?

Our veto means naff?

Some might call that scaremongering, but not me; I'll assume it's prescience.


----------



## Arnie83

newfiesmum said:


> Britain is indeed pretty great as it is. It is probably the greatest country to live in, which is why all the non British people want to come and live here. If I google the things I've mentioned, I will get a lot of propaganda put about the likes of Cameron and others who talk a lot of unsubstantiated twaddle to support their cause. Britain is great, but it was a lot greater before we joined Europe. Perhaps you are not old enough to remember that? I am. Geez, I've even seen posters that tell me if I vote to leave I must be racist! What are these people on?


A lot greater in what way or ways?

(And I remember the 70s very well. The 60s are bit of a blur but that's a different story ...)


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> An awful lot of European funding in the UK is to ensure we comply with EU law though. Just read the ERDF material.
> 
> My Authority has had to find millions of pounds worth of savings in the last few years, that's got nothing to do with leaving the EU. It's already happening. * And our money is having to stretch further because of 'refugees' who should already have claimed asylum in the European country they landed in.*
> 
> And don't get me started on academies. This makes me glad I don't have children. The 'Charity' status of the enterprises running them is an absolute sham and just a way to skim money off the schools that should be spent educating the kids. Shocking misuse of public money.


Wow.



Arnie83 said:


> Agreed
> 
> And further to this, on @MoggyBaby 's point - If there is a GE shortly after Brexit will the British public who chose to Leave not want a Brexit-leaning government negotiating the terms? Why would they vote in a government who doesn't believe we should have left and who might therefore concede more than the Leavers wanted? *The next 5 years will be Boris, Gove, Grayling et al*.


Terrifying to think our future could soon be in their hands. People who believe in unfettered capitalism. Who are bankrolled by hedgefunders. When they've finished negotiating, the only ones who will benefit are the billionaires they represent.



kimthecat said:


> Whoa ! I think we need to back up here . I don't have time at the mo to do a proper comment but I said we are an overcrowded island , we have 55 to 60 million people and not enough housing . I'm not apportioning blame here . There has never been enough decent housing for people going back hundreds of years .


I've backed up lol Sorry if I've misunderstood, but when you spoke of over crowding/house building in relation to the EU, I automatically assumed you were referring to migrants. I'm a bit confused as to what relevance house building & overcrowding has to do with being in the EU then?. If we come out houses will still need to be built, we do have a massive social housing crisis - even the Green Party accept this & the environment is central to their policies. The reason for this burgeoning crisis is the simple fact the tories do not believe in social housing. All this building taking place across our countryside will do little to help those in dire need of an affordable home as it isnt social housing or affordable housing being built. And builders have been given free reign to build pretty much anywhere due to the dreadful Infrastructure Bill & subsequent ecocidal policies.



kimthecat said:


> Its hard to keep up with everything!
> 
> I don't think your response here is relevant to my post.
> If the government are cutting red tape and allowing the green belt to be trashed then being in Europe wont stop that .
> 
> Whatever houses need be built , social , affordable or otherwise they need to go somewhere, green belt or not They need to go somewhere where there are jobs so you need big business and they need to have electric and water supplies ,
> wind farms wont sustain the amount of houses that need to be built. .
> 
> A nuclear power station is being built In the west country or was , the french were supposed to be investing in it . being in the EU hasn't stopped it .
> 
> will Labour cut red tape and trash green belt and the rest of the countryside with their plans to build 5 new towns ?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/24/labour-pledges-five-new-towns-housing
> 
> The new London mayor Sadiq khan pledged to build 80,000 houses a year in London.
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...s-housing-crisis-how-khan-and-goldsmith-stac/
> 
> When they run out of pubs and garages and childrens parks to build on , where they will they build them . They will keep knocking down family homes , the semis and build three/four storey blocks of flats that dwarf the streets that block the skyline and not have enough parking for each flat thanks to that arselington red ken .
> 
> What do they mean by london anyway , one day the whole of the inside of the M25 will be one concrete block .
> 
> I have some photos that i will try to add of the building work opposite and the misery it has caused for 18 momths , before that it was the school down the road, before that etc etc . We have cross rail , HS2 and a third run way to look forward to.
> The point was made that what do you expect its london, but soon it will be other cities and towns near you .


We have minimum standards to adhere to in the EU - not good enough, but surely better than no standards at all? http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/ana...ave-uk-unrestrained-by-eu-environmental-rules And its the tory government that have been busy undermining EU legislation that protects us & our environment. Had we a progressive government things could be very different.

Labour acknowledge the desperate need for social housing & want to build houses to alleviate the problem. The tories on the other hand, just want to develop & industrialise our countryside for corporate profit.

We are the windiest country in Europe - Of course wind power (combined with other sources of renewable energy) will sustain the amount of housing needed. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...wind-windfarm-power-exceed-electricity-demand

Labour doesn't even come close when it comes to the tories and environmental vandalism - the tories are in a league of their own. They even stated they are 'getting rid of all the green crap'.

http://www.jonathonporritt.com/blog/infrastructure-bill

Did you know they intend to sell off OUR public land to private interests? Our forests, parks, beaches, moorland etc all up for grabs.

HS2 & a third runway are more tory brain waves. HS2 will directly affect my area. And the old mayor of London, Boris Johnsons, legacy? - Doubling homelessness & aiding social cleansing he once vowed to oppose. Also Unlike his predecessor, Sadiq Kahn opposes a third runway I believe.

Oh we've already got development all around here & they've got much worse planned for us in the 'desolate north'. Fracking licences have been dished out right across my county. The renewables industry was thriving under labour - the tories have trashed much of it as they are bankrolled by the fossil fuel industry. They are so greedy they will destroy anything for short term gain. Climate change is the greatest danger we (all life on earth) face, not overcrowding. Funny the key brexit players are all climate change deniers. How can we expect these morons to address this most urgent threat we face? At least under the EU we have climate targets to meet. The brexit idiots want to scrap all climate legislation. How can we even begin to combat climate change? People are sleepwalking over this issue. I fear by the time they wake up it will be too late. This SHOULD be what the debate is framed around not all this 'nationalist pride' & immigration [email protected]

For those who are concerned about environmental issues please watch this by the Green Party


----------



## Guest

You have clearly spend a lot of time getting the facts right. Respect, Noushka.


----------



## newfiesmum

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Well as France has the highest number of strikes ...many of which cripple their infrastructure ...the workers obviously don't think everything is so perfect
> 
> Their unemployment level is also twice ours, too. (10% as opposed to 5%)
> 
> And their national wage is considerably lower ...less than Germany's and a lot less than ours. France still has lots of villages which I love and country life (and property) is cheaper (which is great if you have money and don't need a job or are doing the back to basics thing that so many Brits do when they go to live in France) but town life isn't so different. Or cheaper. In my experience.
> 
> And of course their health system requires mandatory insurance. And you pay for extras.
> 
> Maybe I am lucky but I am a happy bunny where I live ...with or without the EU.
> 
> J


And in their capital city, there isn't a single vehicle which does not have a dent in it! I think if I lived anywhere near Paris, I might be tempted to give up driving. And the French traditionally do not like the English.


----------



## newfiesmum

Arnie83 said:


> A lot greater in what way or ways?
> 
> (And I remember the 70s very well. The 60s are bit of a blur but that's a different story ...)


I don't remember the seventies; I was too busy raising three children. I do remember the fifties and sixties, when children of a different religion were excluded from religious education lessons or assembly with hymns; nobody told the schools they had to stop having them in case they caused offence. I remember when the rules of this country were decided by our elected parliament, not some foreigners who don't have a clue.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I had to do a bit of fact finding myself. There seems to be a bit of misconception with regards to the veto aspect of the deal Cameron got with the EU. *Cameron did not get a veto *as many claim on here he in fact got a red card system for Britain to object on EU proposals but EU lawmakers can still make there proposals law regardless of the UKs objections. Here are the actual things Cameron managed to achieve with the deal he struck with the EU: 
https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-it-legally-binding/

https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-red-card/


> Explaining the EU deal: the 'red card'
> 
> The Prime Minister's renegotiation deal on the UK's European Union membership is a package of changes to EU rules. It was agreed by European leaders on 19 February 2016. In this series of articles, some of the country's leading experts in EU law explain the deal and what it changes.
> 
> In brief: *The "red card" system in David Cameron's EU won't quite allow national parliaments to veto European laws. EU lawmakers could still go ahead if they made changes to address the concerns raised by the red card. *But the deal stresses that EU laws should be used to tackle issues that cross borders, which isn't currently stated anywhere.
> The "new settlement" deal on Britain's place in the European Union includes a response to two linked proposals made by David Cameron last November.
> 
> The Prime Minister called for "a new arrangement where groups of national parliaments, acting together, can stop unwanted legislative proposals". This was the so-called "red card" proposal.
> 
> Mr Cameron also said that he wanted the "EU's commitments to subsidiarity to be fully implemented".
> 
> "Subsidiarity"
> Subsidiarity means that decisions are supposed to be taken at national level rather than at European level wherever possible.
> 
> The proposals are linked because the red card is aimed at blocking new European rules if they don't comply with subsidiarity.
> 
> In other words, the red card comes into play when national parliaments say that it's their job to make a particular set of rules.* It's not a blanket veto.*
> 
> Parliaments' powers at present
> 
> National parliaments already have some powers aimed at making sure that European lawmakers comply with subsidiarity. Commentators have likened these powers to the cards shown by football referees.
> 
> 10 of the EU's 28 national parliaments can ask the European Commission, or administration, to reconsider a proposed law if they think there's a subsidiarity problem. This is the so-called "yellow card."
> 
> The Commission has to reconsider after getting a yellow card, but can go ahead anyway. Critics say the yellow card will never make a difference because in practice this is what the Commission will always do.
> 
> Then there's the "orange card", which can be triggered by 15 national parliaments.
> 
> But unless the Commission agrees to drop a proposal, those national parliaments must also get the support of either 16 governments in the EU Council, or a majority in the elected European Parliament, for the orange card to work.
> 
> The orange card has never been used. That's probably because it wouldn't block anything that wouldn't get blocked anyway under the ordinary voting rules. Under those rules, 13 governments, or a majority in the European Parliament, are enough to block a draft law.
> 
> What does the EU deal change?
> 
> Enter David Cameron's "red card". What impact would this have on the current position?
> 
> You might call it a "pink" card rather than a red card, since it doesn't automatically block a draft European law.
> 
> The trigger for the red card against a proposed European law would be objections, for subsidiarity reasons, from "more than 55%" of national parliaments. That means the parliaments of 16 countries.
> 
> But *the red card wouldn't automatically block the proposal.* Government representatives on the EU's Council would discuss the objections of the national parliaments, and then either shelve the draft or amend it to take on board the objections raised.


----------



## Happy Paws2

newfiesmum said:


> And in their capital city, there isn't a single vehicle which does not have a dent in it! I think if I lived anywhere near Paris, I might be tempted to give up driving.* And the French traditionally do not like the English.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> *WHAT:Jawdrop......Where did you get that idea from.  We find them welcoming and very helpful we have never had a problem with them whether in bars, shops or in the street and our french isn't very good. Paris maybe different but then London isn't the friendliest place in the world, but I think all capital cities are the same. Plus the fact that you can take your dog with you where ever you go with in reason.*


----------



## Arnie83

newfiesmum said:


> I don't remember the seventies; I was too busy raising three children. I do remember the fifties and sixties, when children of a different religion were excluded from religious education lessons or assembly with hymns; nobody told the schools they had to stop having them in case they caused offence. I remember when the rules of this country were decided by our elected parliament, not some foreigners who don't have a clue.


What have school assemblies and hymns (which in my opinion should have been banned years ago as forced indoctrination, but that's by the by) got to do with the EU?


----------



## MollySmith

I was listening to lots of press reports about Jo Cox and the media representation (the excellent Johnathan Friedland from the Guardian was one) who were saying how the media and he cited his paper as one - need to step back and consider how they portray politicians. Hints, hyperbole are being taken as fact by social media and spreading as if they are the gospel. 

For me, reading back on this thread in the light of the news on Thursday, both sides have created monsters that they can no longer control, released facts that have no meaning and I wish the campaigns would stop. That they could begin again, based on facts.

We're making a massive decision and I count myself as ill qualified to make a vote I feel happy with because there's so little real information. It's a total shambles.


----------



## newfiesmum

Arnie83 said:


> What have school assemblies and hymns (which in my opinion should have been banned years ago as forced indoctrination, but that's by the by) got to do with the EU?


Probably nothing, but it is all the same whirlpool. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants our island back, and there is nothing forced about assemblies and RE lessons. What is forced is some education authority saying we can't admit that this is a Christian country without upsetting someone.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If you want to watch a movie this Saturday or Sunday, Brexit the movie has been released:






Sorry it has already been put on here, I must have missed it as this thread has got so long


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

newfiesmum said:


> And in their capital city, there isn't a single vehicle which does not have a dent in it! I think if I lived anywhere near Paris, I might be tempted to give up driving.




My car already had a dent or two .... but I have to say that the first time I drove round the Périphérique I was petrified. I thought I'd never get off lol

And Paris was the first time I was 'undertaken' by a car driving on the pavement 

But then that was before I travelled in Italy and my special favourite place for driving .... Naples ...but that's another (European) story!



Happy Paws said:


> *Plus the fact that you can take your dog with you where ever you go with in reason*


Yes shops and cafes are dog friendly ...in some ways that's nice but I wasn't too sure about seeing a dog in a cake shop ..anyway our Environmental Health is a little stricter than theirs ( mind you, I remember the days when dogs went everywhere over here).

I've given up worrying which way the vote will go ....que, sera sera and all that (seeing as we're in France).

J


----------



## diefenbaker

Arnie83 said:


> What have school assemblies and hymns (which in my opinion should have been banned years ago as forced indoctrination, but that's by the by) got to do with the EU?


Stop handing out the rope... or carry on... none of it's a surprise really.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Yes shops and cafes are dog friendly ..*.in some ways that's nice but I wasn't too sure about seeing a dog in a cake shop *..anyway our Environmental Health is a little stricter than theirs ( mind you, I remember the days when dogs went everywhere over here).
> 
> I've given up worrying which way the vote will go ....que, sera sera and all that (seeing as we're in France).
> 
> J


The last time we went to France 7 years ago apart from the large supermarkets we could id we had wanted to, have taken Amber into all sorts of shops.


----------



## kimthecat

What ever the result is , whatever happens in the future it will be blamed on the fact we stayed /left the EU.


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat said:


> If you want to watch a movie this Saturday or Sunday, Brexit the movie has been released:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry it has already been put on here, I must have missed it as this thread has got so long


Because it's good to have a balanced thread...

*
Who is on what side:*

_Remain_:
Former British Prime Ministers Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and John Major (1 - see Sources below)
The Labour party (2)
Every other major UK political party leader including Nicola Sturgeon (3) 
Barack Obama (4)
Hillary Clinton (5)
Angela Merkel (6)
Stephen Hawking and 83% of scientists (7)
Sir Richard Branson (8) 
40 religious leaders (9)
300 leading historians (10)
The Trades Union Congress and our six largest trades unions (11) 
88% of economists (12) 
The National Farmers Union (13) 
The Bank of England (14) 
The Chief Executive of NHS England (15)
The Royal College of Midwives (16)
Multiple businesses including Ford Motor Company (17) and Rolls Royce (18)

_Leave_:
The Sun Newspaper
The BNP
The UKIP Party
Nigel Farage
Boris Johnson
Michael Gove
Donald Trump

FAQs
_We shouldn't be governed by unelected bureaucrats, we should decide our own laws and how we spend our own money._
What % of our laws are actually generated by the EU versus our own country?? - can you guess? It's actually a hard number to derive, but according to the House of Commons Library Report, it's 7% (19). Yes, only 7%!!!
The UK manages its own Budget. Manages how it spends its income, how much to spend on Health versus Education etc… Oh, and the NHS is a British institution governed solely in the UK.

_We pay £350 million a week to the EU, that's £50 million a day, £18.8 billion a year!! If we leave, the money saved could save our NHS._
The following points are really, really important, the above statement cannot be considered in isolation:
- Those numbers are misleading because they don't take account of the rebate the UK gets from the EU or the spending by the EU on the UK. In 2014 following the rebate and spending in the UK from the EU, we paid £5.7 billion which equates to 0.3% of UK GDP, or £100 million per week, or £14 million a day. (20). Around 36 pence per day per person.
- The 0.3% is really important - take a look at the pie chart. It is a tiny slither of the total spending in the UK, which if saved, would make no significant difference to the spending on public services, like the NHS or Education.
- The amount the UK economy benefits from investments from EU countries is £66 million a day. (Source: Office of National Statistics).
- If we leave and save that £5.7 billion a year we pay to the EU, independent economic experts believe the economic damage to the UK will more than outweigh the savings made. It is hard to predict exactly what will happen and when (might take a couple of years to feel the effects), but independent experts predict the damage to the UK to be between £20 billion to £40 billion (20). The same report predicts that the deficit which is expected to be cleared by 2019/20, will not be cleared if Brexit happens.
- Yes we are net contributors to the EU, so we get back (directly) less than we give, but isn't it good to help poorer countries, if it leads to raising standards across Europe and avoiding wars, which the EU has avoided in Europe since the Second World War?
- Some claim we will continue to be able to access the single market in Europe if we leave, however Germany's finance minister has made it quite clear this won't be the case (21). Do we really want to risk rocking the boat here?

_Britain no longer feels like Britain, we're surrounded by foreigners!!! We have a massive immigration problem._
- The overwhelming majority of immigration to the UK over the last 40 years has been from outside the EU (22). However you feel about the above statement, it has nothing to do with our EU membership.
- Last year, 270,000 EU citizens immigrated to the UK, and 85,000 returned to the EU. So EU net migration was around 185,000 (23). Britain has a population of £64.6 million, the impact on our overall population just isn't very large!
- EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they use in public services, as they are much more likely to be of working age ("economic migrants" - who have come to Britain to work) than the general population (24). 
- Tax payments by EU migrants far outweigh welfare paid to EU migrants . They make a net contribution to the UK of £20 billion a year (25) 
- Many UK citizens choose to become immigrants in other countries; Spain, Australia, America, China, Germany, to name but a few. We like to call ourselves "ex-pats" but in fact, we are immigrants enjoying another country's culture, it's public services, it's weather! We don't see this as a problem, we see it as exciting, yet when others wish to come here, so many see it as a problem, which saddens me.

These are the likely effects on us all if we leave the EU:
- The pound will devalue due to uncertainty about the UK's economic future. It's already happening around fears of Brexit (26). Since the UK imports most of its good (you may have noticed we don't "make" or manufacture as much in this country as we used to (!), a normal basket of goods will simply cost you more, because the Pound won't buy as much. It would also become more expensive to take holidays abroad.
- Falling currency leads to higher inflation, again, normal basket of goods will cost more (26).
- Panic selling of the weakening Pound may force the Bank of England to raise interest rates, so your mortgage payments will go up (26).
- Unemployment will rise: a study commissioned by the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) has warned that leaving the EU could cost the British economy 950,000 jobs (27). 
- If you own a property in Europe, you will lose the tax perks of being an EU Citizen. France, for example, is notoriously tough on non-EU citizens, imposing a capital-gains tax of 49%, made up of its "impôt sur les plus values" and an added social charge. This compares to EU Citizens, who pay 19% on gains from renting or selling properties in France (28).

Sources:
(1) http://www.theguardian.com/…/inspiring-view-britishness-def…; Tony Blair http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36408239; John Major http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/John-Major-Voting-to-leave-wil…
(2) Jeremy Corbyn (Labour) http://labourlist.org/…/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-vo…/
(3) Tim Farron (Lib Dem) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…/Britain-impoverished-backwater…Caroline Lucas (Green) http://europe.newsweek.com/caroline-lucas-brexit-european-r…Nicola Sturgeon (SNP) http://www.thesun.co.uk/…/Nicola-Sturgeon-vows-to-back-argu…
(4) Barack Obama http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/as-your-friend-let-me-tell-you…
(5) Hillary Clinton http://www.theguardian.com/…/hillary-clinton-britain-should…
(6) Angela Merkel http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36436726;
(7) https://www.theguardian.com/…/stephen-hawking-donald-trump-… ; http://www.nature.com/…/scientists-say-no-to-uk-exit-from-e… 
(8) http://www.independent.co.uk/…/sir-richard-branson-warns-le…
(9) http://www.theguardian.com/…/religious-leaders-oppose-brexit
(10) http://www.theguardian.com/…/vote-to-leave-eu-will-condemn-… 
(11) http://uk.reuters.com/ar…/uk-britain-eu-unions-idUKKCN0V517D 
(12) http://www.itv.com/…/almost-nine-in-10-economists-believe-…/ 
(13) http://www.theguardian.com/…/british-farmers-uk-eu-nfu-brex… 
(14) https://www.theguardian.com/…/bank-of-england-keeps-interes…
(15) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36353145 
(16) https://www.rcm.org.uk/…/royal-college-of-midwives-supports…
(17) http://www.reuters.com/art…/us-britain-eu-ford-idUSKCN0YV1QL
(18) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36534172
(19) http://johnmccormick.eu/…/three-of-the-most-persistent-myt…/
(20) http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r116.pdf 
(21) http://www.theguardian.com/…/no-single-market-access-for-uk…
(22) http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-…/…
(23) https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/ 
(24) http://www.economist.com/…/21631076-rather-lot-according-ne…
(25) https://www.theguardian.com/…/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl…
(26) http://www.theguardian.com/…/would-the-pound-be-weakened-by…
(27) http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-could-cost-uk-million-jobs-…
(28) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/Brexit-what-would-it-mean-for-…​


----------



## stockwellcat.

MollySmith said:


> Because it's good to have a balanced thread...
> 
> *
> Who is on what side:*
> 
> _Remain_:
> Former British Prime Ministers Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and John Major (1 - see Sources below)
> The Labour party (2)
> Every other major UK political party leader including Nicola Sturgeon (3)
> Barack Obama (4)
> Hillary Clinton (5)
> Angela Merkel (6)
> Stephen Hawking and 83% of scientists (7)
> Sir Richard Branson (8)
> 40 religious leaders (9)
> 300 leading historians (10)
> The Trades Union Congress and our six largest trades unions (11)
> 88% of economists (12)
> The National Farmers Union (13)
> The Bank of England (14)
> The Chief Executive of NHS England (15)
> The Royal College of Midwives (16)
> Multiple businesses including Ford Motor Company (17) and Rolls Royce (18)
> 
> _Leave_:
> The Sun Newspaper
> The BNP
> The UKIP Party
> Nigel Farage
> Boris Johnson
> Michael Gove
> Donald Trump
> 
> FAQs
> _We shouldn't be governed by unelected bureaucrats, we should decide our own laws and how we spend our own money._
> What % of our laws are actually generated by the EU versus our own country?? - can you guess? It's actually a hard number to derive, but according to the House of Commons Library Report, it's 7% (19). Yes, only 7%!!!
> The UK manages its own Budget. Manages how it spends its income, how much to spend on Health versus Education etc… Oh, and the NHS is a British institution governed solely in the UK.
> 
> _We pay £350 million a week to the EU, that's £50 million a day, £18.8 billion a year!! If we leave, the money saved could save our NHS._
> The following points are really, really important, the above statement cannot be considered in isolation:
> - Those numbers are misleading because they don't take account of the rebate the UK gets from the EU or the spending by the EU on the UK. In 2014 following the rebate and spending in the UK from the EU, we paid £5.7 billion which equates to 0.3% of UK GDP, or £100 million per week, or £14 million a day. (20). Around 36 pence per day per person.
> - The 0.3% is really important - take a look at the pie chart. It is a tiny slither of the total spending in the UK, which if saved, would make no significant difference to the spending on public services, like the NHS or Education.
> - The amount the UK economy benefits from investments from EU countries is £66 million a day. (Source: Office of National Statistics).
> - If we leave and save that £5.7 billion a year we pay to the EU, independent economic experts believe the economic damage to the UK will more than outweigh the savings made. It is hard to predict exactly what will happen and when (might take a couple of years to feel the effects), but independent experts predict the damage to the UK to be between £20 billion to £40 billion (20). The same report predicts that the deficit which is expected to be cleared by 2019/20, will not be cleared if Brexit happens.
> - Yes we are net contributors to the EU, so we get back (directly) less than we give, but isn't it good to help poorer countries, if it leads to raising standards across Europe and avoiding wars, which the EU has avoided in Europe since the Second World War?
> - Some claim we will continue to be able to access the single market in Europe if we leave, however Germany's finance minister has made it quite clear this won't be the case (21). Do we really want to risk rocking the boat here?
> 
> _Britain no longer feels like Britain, we're surrounded by foreigners!!! We have a massive immigration problem._
> - The overwhelming majority of immigration to the UK over the last 40 years has been from outside the EU (22). However you feel about the above statement, it has nothing to do with our EU membership.
> - Last year, 270,000 EU citizens immigrated to the UK, and 85,000 returned to the EU. So EU net migration was around 185,000 (23). Britain has a population of £64.6 million, the impact on our overall population just isn't very large!
> - EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they use in public services, as they are much more likely to be of working age ("economic migrants" - who have come to Britain to work) than the general population (24).
> - Tax payments by EU migrants far outweigh welfare paid to EU migrants . They make a net contribution to the UK of £20 billion a year (25)
> - Many UK citizens choose to become immigrants in other countries; Spain, Australia, America, China, Germany, to name but a few. We like to call ourselves "ex-pats" but in fact, we are immigrants enjoying another country's culture, it's public services, it's weather! We don't see this as a problem, we see it as exciting, yet when others wish to come here, so many see it as a problem, which saddens me.
> 
> These are the likely effects on us all if we leave the EU:
> - The pound will devalue due to uncertainty about the UK's economic future. It's already happening around fears of Brexit (26). Since the UK imports most of its good (you may have noticed we don't "make" or manufacture as much in this country as we used to (!), a normal basket of goods will simply cost you more, because the Pound won't buy as much. It would also become more expensive to take holidays abroad.
> - Falling currency leads to higher inflation, again, normal basket of goods will cost more (26).
> - Panic selling of the weakening Pound may force the Bank of England to raise interest rates, so your mortgage payments will go up (26).
> - Unemployment will rise: a study commissioned by the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) has warned that leaving the EU could cost the British economy 950,000 jobs (27).
> - If you own a property in Europe, you will lose the tax perks of being an EU Citizen. France, for example, is notoriously tough on non-EU citizens, imposing a capital-gains tax of 49%, made up of its "impôt sur les plus values" and an added social charge. This compares to EU Citizens, who pay 19% on gains from renting or selling properties in France (28).
> 
> Sources:
> (1) http://www.theguardian.com/…/inspiring-view-britishness-def…; Tony Blair http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36408239; John Major http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/John-Major-Voting-to-leave-wil…
> (2) Jeremy Corbyn (Labour) http://labourlist.org/…/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-vo…/
> (3) Tim Farron (Lib Dem) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…/Britain-impoverished-backwater…Caroline Lucas (Green) http://europe.newsweek.com/caroline-lucas-brexit-european-r…Nicola Sturgeon (SNP) http://www.thesun.co.uk/…/Nicola-Sturgeon-vows-to-back-argu…
> (4) Barack Obama http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/as-your-friend-let-me-tell-you…
> (5) Hillary Clinton http://www.theguardian.com/…/hillary-clinton-britain-should…
> (6) Angela Merkel http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36436726;
> (7) https://www.theguardian.com/…/stephen-hawking-donald-trump-… ; http://www.nature.com/…/scientists-say-no-to-uk-exit-from-e…
> (8) http://www.independent.co.uk/…/sir-richard-branson-warns-le…
> (9) http://www.theguardian.com/…/religious-leaders-oppose-brexit
> (10) http://www.theguardian.com/…/vote-to-leave-eu-will-condemn-…
> (11) http://uk.reuters.com/ar…/uk-britain-eu-unions-idUKKCN0V517D
> (12) http://www.itv.com/…/almost-nine-in-10-economists-believe-…/
> (13) http://www.theguardian.com/…/british-farmers-uk-eu-nfu-brex…
> (14) https://www.theguardian.com/…/bank-of-england-keeps-interes…
> (15) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36353145
> (16) https://www.rcm.org.uk/…/royal-college-of-midwives-supports…
> (17) http://www.reuters.com/art…/us-britain-eu-ford-idUSKCN0YV1QL
> (18) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36534172
> (19) http://johnmccormick.eu/…/three-of-the-most-persistent-myt…/
> (20) http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r116.pdf
> (21) http://www.theguardian.com/…/no-single-market-access-for-uk…
> (22) http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-…/…
> (23) https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/
> (24) http://www.economist.com/…/21631076-rather-lot-according-ne…
> (25) https://www.theguardian.com/…/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl…
> (26) http://www.theguardian.com/…/would-the-pound-be-weakened-by…
> (27) http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-could-cost-uk-million-jobs-…
> (28) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/Brexit-what-would-it-mean-for-…​


It would be also good if the remain campaigners got there facts right. Repeatedly on this thread it has been said that we have a right to veto. Cameron did not achieve this in his renegotiations he only managed to get Britain a red card system which is far from a veto. See my post on page 41.

This is what I am on about: 
https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-red-card/

https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-it-legally-binding/


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## Lilylass

cheekyscrip said:


> And if it is bad enough Scots may want to go solo and join EU...
> .


She will not get a 2nd Scottish Referendum so that's not going to happen

Their whole economic business case was based on oil with absolutely no fall-back plan - if we'd gone independent we'd have been bankrupt by now ...... they've also really p'd off a lot of their even loyal supporters ....


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## kimthecat

Looks like Field Marshall Guthrie has switched to Leave
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36565036

Former defence chief Lord Guthrie has switched sides to the Leave campaign in the EU referendum, saying he is worried by the prospect of "a European army".

In February the ex-chief of the defence staff signed a Downing Street letter calling for the UK to stay in the EU.

But he has told the Telegraph that was "a mistake" and said he believed a vote to Leave "is better for defence".

A convey of aid for the Calais Migrants have been stopped at Dover on the request if the French authorities
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-36567396
Bit confused why we had to stop them here and why they didn't let them go to Calais and let the french customs stop them or why they wanted to stop them in the first place . Something to do with public order.

I spent some time in France c1980 , despite the french farmers blockading UK lorries , the French people in the South were very friendly and helpful to us . It is a beautiful country and I did enjoy living there .
The French farmers though ,  in 1990

"French farmers have also kept up their attacks on trucks carrying imported cattle, lambs and meat. British, Dutch and German truckers say they feel terrified when they drive into France, where the farmers have assembled roadblocks of hay, nails and burning tires.

French farmers set fire to one truckload of British sheep, killing 219 of them. They poisoned 94 sheep on one truck, slit the throats of sheep on another and doused animals on a third truck with insecticide to prevent their meat from being sold."

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/17/world/french-protest-of-sheep-imports-turns-ugly.html

.


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## rona

MollySmith said:


> What % of our laws are actually generated by the EU versus our own country?? - can you guess? It's actually a hard number to derive, but according to the House of Commons Library Report, it's 7% (19). Yes, only 7%!!!


But what about the regulations?


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## diefenbaker

rona said:


> But what about the regulations?


We don't need no Cub Scout Law. Who was this Baden Powell anyway ? I didn't vote for him.


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## rona

diefenbaker said:


> We don't need no Cub Scout Law. Who was this Baden Powell anyway ? I didn't vote for him.


I think this is the second time you've said this after one of my posts and I haven't a clue what you are on about

oh no......the other was Straw man...didn't understand that either


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## havoc

_In February the ex-chief of the defence staff signed a Downing Street letter calling for the UK to stay in the EU.
But he has told the Telegraph that was "a mistake" and said he believed a vote to Leave "is better for defence".
_
Well I'd already thought we'd have to increase spending on defence if we leave. We've cut our forces to the bone and if we have to build them back up it I'd guess it wouldn't break the heart of defence chiefs - past, present and future.
_
_


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## diefenbaker

rona said:


> I think this is the second time you've said this after one of my posts and I haven't a clue what you are on about
> 
> oh no......the other was Straw man...didn't understand that either


That's not my fault. There is a third option. Shake it all about.


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## MollySmith

Worth watching, better than Brexit.


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## Satori

rona said:


> I think this is the second time you've said this after one of my posts and I haven't a clue what you are on about
> 
> oh no......the other was Straw man...didn't understand that either


dnftt?


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## rona

Satori said:


> dnftt?


Don't you start :Mooning


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## MoggyBaby

MollySmith said:


> Because it's good to have a balanced thread...
> 
> *
> Who is on what side:*
> 
> _Leave_:
> The Sun Newspaper
> The BNP
> The UKIP Party
> Nigel Farage
> Boris Johnson
> Michael Gove
> Donald Trump​


Your 'Leave' list is looking a little bit thin on the ground so here's a further 250 to help you along. 

The full list of business leaders backing Vote Leave in a personal capacity:


















































































I should also add that James Dyson - of Dyson vacum cleaner fame - has also thrown his hat into the Leave ring since this list was compiled.

So that's 251 names - don't say I'm not good to you now!!


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## CanIgoHome

think you can say a fair few want out too


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## stockwellcat.

MoggyBaby said:


> Your 'Leave' list is looking a little bit thin on the ground so here's a further 250 to help you along.
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Don't forget British Army Field Marshal Lord Guthrie added his name to the list today 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rd-guthrie-why-i-now-back-the-leave-campaign/


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## CanIgoHome

have you notice that it all the international/globol company that want us to stay in like BMW Ford


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## stockwellcat.

JCB Chairman Lord Bamford is also backing the Leave Campaign.

http://www.expressandstar.com/busin...-highlights-jcb-chairmans-backing-for-brexit/

There are also a lot of millionaires backing the Leave Campaign as well.

I feel the more that the Leave campaigners are being undermined the more people are coming out backing the Leave Campaign.

Personally I can't wait for the results now as the build up to this has been to long.


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## MollySmith

It's not my list... it's been on social media like much of the stuff on here. What makes it different to most of the memes on here is that it has sources that can be tracked.

One name that struck me on this list was The Bridgeman Art Library. From speaking to image libraries at a conference recently, we guess that they would love to be out of the EU as it will probably affect global copyright law thus empowering their business whose main competitors are in the EU which has little to do with you or me but it will most certainly push up the price of books and educational material as publishers can't necessary afford the prices that Bridgeman charge unless the agreements post vote still allow some trade and that those businesses want to trade with UK businesses.

I think your list below was from the East Midlands Business group? Charles Wade is a member of this (he's the man who sold his furniture company for £20m - I'm sure we can all relate to that...) - there's a lot of businesses in the UK missing. Without evidence and reasons from the names quoted, it's just a long copy and paste image. Ditto James Dyson and Lord Guthrie.

And I'm yet to be convinced by either side. Both sides have unleashed monsters and lots of unsourced bollox.



MoggyBaby said:


> *Your* 'Leave' list is looking a little bit thin on the ground so here's a further 250 to help you along.
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> So that's 251 names - don't say I'm not good to you now!!


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## MollySmith

See what I mean?

"Vote Leave, which has just been designated as the official pro-Brexit campaign group, claims that business is evenly divided. Yet most polls by trade associations find big majorities for staying in the EU. A survey by the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) found 80% of members for Remain, with only 5% for Leave. In response to claims that it represents only big companies, the CBI points out that it speaks for 190,000 members, mostly small and medium-sized enterprises, and that 71% of SMEs want to stay. The Institute of Directors and the British Chambers of Commerce, with memberships that have a higher share of SMEs than the CBI, find most in favour. Even a majority of the Federation of Small Businesses narrowly backs Remain.

Specialist trade associations report similar results. TechUK, an IT group, finds 70% for staying in the EU. The EEF manufacturers’ association has 61% (see chart). A survey this week by the UK arm of the International Chamber of Commerce found 86% of international businesses supporting Remain. Groups as diverse as Universities UK, the Food and Drink Federation and the aerospace and defence association also report large support for Remain.

This is not to deny that some businessmen favour Brexit. James Dyson of the eponymous manufacturing firm is one. Like Alan Halsall of Silver Cross, a pram maker, he believes EU rules hamper the export of his products. Many small firms think that, since they do not export at all, they should be exempt from Brussels rules. Yet as Paul Drechsler, president of the CBI, notes, 25 years of single-market integration have created a supply-chain network so dense as to make such compartmentalisation impossible.

A good example of a business that benefits from the EU is the British car industry. Mike Hawes, the chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), says it was largely moribund in the 1980s and 1990s. But thanks to foreign ownership and investment attracted by a gateway into the EU single market, it has revived strongly. It accounts for 800,000 jobs and 12% of British exports (80% of its output goes abroad). Britain now produces more cars than France. Fully 77% of SMMT members favour Remain, not just because future investment depends on access to the single market but also to retain influence over the industry’s regulation. Mr Hawes cites the case of an exemption that British lobbying secured from EU emission rules for low-volume niche producers like Lotus and McLaren.

It is a similar story for financial services. Mark Boleat, the policy director of the City of London Corporation, says his outfit has come out strongly for Remain in line with the views of the overwhelming majority of City firms. Like many businesses, they complain about the burden of regulation, but Mr Boleat points out that much of this now comes not from the EU but from either domestic or global sources. He says that even hedge funds, several of whose richest bosses favour Brexit, have been unable to point to any benefits from leaving the EU.

Should business speak out more? Remain campaigners would like it to, as would the government. Mr Drechsler of the CBI says companies should be clear that it is not their job to tell people how to vote. But he says they would be negligent if they failed to spell out to customers, employees and suppliers the damage that Brexit will do to the economy and jobs. He does not want bosses to wake up on June 24th after a vote to leave feeling they had not done enough to spell out the risks.

Still, some business bosses are cautious. Airbus ran into heavy criticism when it wrote to all employees to warn them of the dangers of Brexit. Japanese firms in Britain are careful not to say explicitly that they might switch investment to continental Europe. Several supermarket groups refuse to talk publicly about Brexit for fear of alienating customers. The CBI itself is a favourite target of Brexiteers, who accuse it of being a Brussels puppet and wanting to join the euro. Yet for British businesses the Brexit referendum matters more than any general election. They must nerve themselves to stick their heads above the parapet if Remain is to win."

The Economist, 2016


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## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I had to do a bit of fact finding myself. There seems to be a bit of misconception with regards to the veto aspect of the deal Cameron got with the EU. *Cameron did not get a veto *as many claim on here he in fact got a red card system for Britain to object on EU proposals but EU lawmakers can still make there proposals law regardless of the UKs objections. Here are the actual things Cameron managed to achieve with the deal he struck with the EU:
> https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-it-legally-binding/
> 
> https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-red-card/


Doesn't affect our existing vetoes, though, does it. We can still, for example, block Turkey's accession, the budget - in fact every decision where unanimity is still required.


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## Arnie83

The odd thing about businesses is that Vote Leave always say that those who support EU membership "would say that, wouldn't they! It's in their interests!" I.e. that they will do better in than out.

Yet Vote Leave also say that the UK will be economically better off out. 

Do they think that the economic success of the UK is not dependent on the success of British business?


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## havoc

How do our British brands export to non EU countries presently? It's an honest question borne from this idea that being in the EU hampers exports outside it. Our luxury brands have long been favoured by the Japanese and in the USA so how did these goods end up in Tokyo and New York?

The one which really confuses me - manufacturing is often outsourced to China and other non EU countries. Even small start ups do so, how often do you hear 'landed price' in Dragon's Den? It's obviously been worthwhile for British companies to do this while we've been in the EU so what has membership affected there? Will it become easier or more difficult to outsource jobs overseas if we leave?


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## MollySmith

havoc said:


> How do our British brands export to non EU countries presently? It's an honest question borne from this idea that being in the EU hampers exports outside it. Our luxury brands have long been favoured by the Japanese and in the USA so how did these goods end up in Tokyo and New York?
> 
> _The one which really confuses me - manufacturing is often outsourced to China and other non EU countries. Even small start ups do so, how often do you hear 'landed price' in Dragon's Den? It's obviously been worthwhile for British companies to do this while we've been in the EU so what has membership affected there? Will it become easier or more difficult to outsource jobs overseas if we leave?_


Yes I'm confused by that too. Outsourcing meant massive changes in the publishing firm I work in - it closed down all the printing on the site and my husband - a printer by trade - and many of our friends lost their jobs. I work there now and all print is placed in China with just short runs and advance copies placed in the UK. The affects of the vote could affect this. I don't know how and my employers are being tight lipped about it.

I do not think that the UK has enough infrastructure to take back the outsourcing. I know that the company I work for would fail. Almost certain of it.

I guess the point I'm making in countering @MoggyBaby and @stockwellcat 's posts (and others) is that I personally feel absolutely ill qualified to make a vote I think is correct on the 23rd. Neither appeal to me as there are arguments on both sides that are worthy of argument. I'm only leaning to the remain because I detest Farage's racist politics and the collective Leave figureheads which isn't a proper reason at all.


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## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Doesn't affect our existing vetoes, though, does it. We can still, for example, block Turkey's accession, the budget - in fact every decision where unanimity is still required.


I think you may find it does over rule any existing vetoes:


> The "red card" system in David Cameron's EU won't quite allow national parliaments to veto European laws. EU lawmakers could still go ahead if they made changes to address the concerns raised by the red card. But the deal stresses that EU laws should be used to tackle issues that cross borders, which isn't currently stated anywhere.


If I am wrong and you can find where it says that this doesn't affect current vetoes please let me know and I apologise in advance. As far as I am aware this new deal Cameron got over rules all existing vetoes etc.


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## Happy Paws2

The more I hear Boris more I feel I'm right vote to stay IN.


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## MollySmith

"For weeks, months and years "politician" has been a word more spat out than said. MPs have been depicted as a form of pond life, routinely placed on the lowest rung of the ladder of esteem, trusted less than estate agents and journalists, the butt of every panel show gag, casually assumed to be venal, mendacious, vain, stupid or malevolent.

"They're all as bad as each other," we say. "They're only in it for themselves." "You can't believe a word they say." These complaints are repeated so often, we barely notice them. They're like moans about the weather, presumed to warrant no disagreement.

But then we are confronted with the fate, and the life, of Jo Cox. We learn that she was a devoted mother of two young children. We see the pictures of her putting shoes on her daughter's tiny feet. We hear that she fizzed with energy and commitment to those suffering, far away and closer to home. We learn that her friends loved her and hear them break down as they remember her. We see that she burned with a fierce idealism, that she was devoted to her home town of Batley, that she wanted to make life better for people other than herself.

And none of that quite fits with what we thought "politician" meant. Yet the funny thing is, this is what most of them are actually like. It's the dirty little secret of political life: that, yes, there are some politicians who are all about ego and vanity and hogging the camera; but there are countless more who get and seek little public attention, who toil away, knocking on doors, fielding complaints about broken drains and noisy neighbours, who work daytimes, evenings and weekends, and who are rewarded by little thanks - and often a downpour of abuse.

What accounts for this loathing of our elected public servants, the men and women we have chosen to represent us? Some of it they bring upon themselves, to be sure - and there's no denying that the standing of MPs plummeted after the expenses affair of 2009 (though they were hardly revered before then).

The media have certainly played their part. Think of the interviews conducted as if every politician belongs automatically in the dock, interrogations that proceed on a premise famously cited by Jeremy Paxman: why is this lying bastard lying to me?

Social media has intensified this hostility and made it even more sharply personal. The abuse directed at women - whether elected politicians or not - who dare to voice an opinion in public, the threats of rape and murder: all of it has further polluted the atmosphere.

We don't yet know what was in the mind of the man who killed Jo Cox. But even if we cannot locate a specific cause in the nation's political debate and claim this murder as its direct effect, we can say this: that if you inject enough poison into the political bloodstream, eventually somebody will get sick.

In the early 1990s I watched as it became a staple of US debate that all America's woes were the fault of the federal government. On the right, it became incontestable to blame "government bureaucrats" for any and every problem. On talk radio - the social media of that era - "government bureaucrats" were assailed daily as the enemy, worthy only of contempt. And then, on 19 April 1995, Timothy McVeigh planted a bomb in a building in Oklahoma City filled with government bureaucrats, and killed 168people. Perhaps McVeigh was mentally unstable, but that hardly weakens the point: even the mentally unstable hear the conversation around them.

And how has our national conversation sounded in recent weeks? As it happens, before Jo Cox was so brutally murdered I had a plan for the column I would write today. Its headline was to be "Behold the demons we have unleashed". It was to convey my deep anxiety about the darker loathings stirred by the debate over next week's EU referendum.

It would have cited the violence in France involving English football fans, who chanted the usual anti-French and anti-German songs but also "**** off, Europe - we're all voting out".

It would have mentioned the incident, witnessed by a Financial Times correspondent, in which England fans threw coins at child beggars in the streets, enjoying the children's humiliation as they bent down to pick them up. The same fans made one seven-year-old boy down a bottle of beer to earn his reward.

You could say those fans would always have behaved that way. But none of us is an island. We take our cues from the signals around us. And the recent signals have included a loathing of the European Union and a resistance to immigration that is clearly heard by many as nothing more than hostility to foreigners.

*The poster Nigel Farage unveiled on Thursday morning turned that dog-whistle into a foghorn: under the phrase "Breaking Point", it showed a snaking queue of conspicuously dark men, suggesting these were EU migrants descending on Britain. (In fact they were Syrian refugees arriving in Slovenia, with no chance of getting anywhere near Britain.) It was unambiguously racist.*

And throughout this campaign, there has been a drumbeat denouncing "the Westminster elite", castigating all politicians, along with anyone in authority or in a public position of expertise, as either a liar or the corrupt dupe of a wicked Brussels conspiracy.

Perhaps this had nothing to do with the cruelty that deprived two children of their mother yesterday. Maybe it's a coincidence that the killer struck at this moment. Maybe it's a coincidence that he targeted an MP who was a passionate advocate of remaining inside the EU, and whose signature issue had been a campaign to admit Syrians in desperate need of refuge.

Maybe it's a coincidence that she was a member of a political class that has been reviled for years and with heightened fervour in recent weeks. Maybe it's a coincidence that she was an advocate for a position depicted by its most fevered opponents as unpatriotic and verging on treason.

*We don't yet know. But what we do know is that this campaign has torn away at a fabric that took years to weave, one that ensured we could argue with each other without challenging the basic legitimacy of our opponents, one that had grown to accept diversity as a strength rather than a threat to be feared, one that allowed us to keep calm and civil even when we disagreed passionately.*

Whatever happens next Thursday, it will take time to repair that fabric. But repair it we must. For what we have learned this week is that the veil that separates civilisation from mayhem is thin. The tragedy is that it took the death of a devoted, admired and adored woman to teach us that lesson."

_I mentioned Jonathan Friedland in an earlier post and think his words in an interview on Jeremy Vine's show on Friday about accountability were very moving. So I've copied and pasted his article about it above._


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## rottiepointerhouse

Thanks for posting that @MollySmith, I'm not sure what the answer is but I think we all need to take a step back and try to be more accepting of other people's views and opinions. Its fine to have different opinions and there is no need to try and force everyone to accept that "our" opinion is the only and right one. Its one of the reasons I've kept out of this debate having learned the hard way in the General Election debates on here that being brave enough to admit you voted in the way most other members did not approve of would bring you nothing but vitriol and frankly hatred beyond anything I've experienced anywhere else. There are kind, compassionate and caring people in all walks of life and we should all learn to be a little more tolerant of other people's views otherwise these social media threats and the vile hatred behind them will lead to the loss of the freedoms we all hold dear.


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## havoc

_I guess the point I'm making in countering @MoggyBaby and @stockwellcat 's posts (and others) is that I personally feel absolutely ill qualified to make a vote I think is correct on the 23rd. Neither appeal to me as there are arguments on both sides that are worthy of argument._
We've been ill served by both sides - each taking a huge issue which nobody really understands and peddling figures to fit as they choose. Talk about 'the economy' and they can both make ridiculous claims one way or the other. Ask how being in has affected an individual business or how leaving will make it better or worse and nobody wants to answer. Well the economy IS those individual businesses and not one of the bosses who have put their names to one camp or the other has given any real reason for doing so. It's no use telling me it will be easier for them if we stay or leave without explaining exactly why they feel they've suffered or will suffer if things change - or don't.

And as for Boris - I'm completely convinced he would have taken any position which opposed Cameron in the hope of getting his job.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I think you may find it does over rule any existing vetoes:
> 
> If I am wrong and you can find where it says that this doesn't affect current vetoes please let me know and I apologise in advance. As far as I am aware this new deal Cameron got over rules all existing vetoes etc.


No need to apologise. In Cameron's 'renegotiation' he agreed not to block further integration of the eurozone, in exchange for any such changes not affecting the single market and the UK not having to bail out any eurozone members.

"But this does not change the formal voting rules, according to Steve Peers, EU law professor at the University of Kent. "We have a veto on further Treaty amendments relating to the euro zone or anything else, which was not given up", he explains."

So we agreed not to get in the way of the eurozone, but that was all. I think the easiest way to reassure yourself is to note that the likes of Gove and Johnson haven't been screaming from the rooftops that we've given up our vetoes on the budget, or the rebate, or EU expansion!


----------



## MollySmith

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thanks for posting that @MollySmith, I'm not sure what the answer is but I think we all need to take a step back and try to be more accepting of other people's views and opinions. Its fine to have different opinions and there is no need to try and force everyone to accept that "our" opinion is the only and right one. Its one of the reasons I've kept out of this debate having learned the hard way in the General Election debates on here that being brave enough to admit you voted in the way most other members did not approve of would bring you nothing but vitriol and frankly hatred beyond anything I've experienced anywhere else. There are kind, compassionate and caring people in all walks of life and we should all learn to be a little more tolerant of other people's views otherwise these social media threats and the vile hatred behind them will lead to the loss of the freedoms we all hold dear.





havoc said:


> _I guess the point I'm making in countering @MoggyBaby and @stockwellcat 's posts (and others) is that I personally feel absolutely ill qualified to make a vote I think is correct on the 23rd. Neither appeal to me as there are arguments on both sides that are worthy of argument._
> We've been ill served by both sides - each taking a huge issue which nobody really understands and peddling figures to fit as they choose. Talk about 'the economy' and they can both make ridiculous claims one way or the other. Ask how being in has affected an individual business or how leaving will make it better or worse and nobody wants to answer. Well the economy IS those individual businesses and not one of the bosses who have put their names to one camp or the other has given any real reason for doing so. It's no use telling me it will be easier for them if we stay or leave without explaining exactly why they feel they've suffered or will suffer if things change - or don't.
> 
> And as for Boris - I'm completely convinced he would have taken any position which opposed Cameron in the hope of getting his job.


Agree with you both here. Wise words.

I was hoping personally that both side would tone down the rats in a sack approach but I fear that it's not been the case. Only today Farage was recorded in an interview saying that Jo Cox's murder stopped the 'momentum' of the Leave campaign. I find that unspeakably awful and can't imagine what her family must think.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MollySmith said:


> Agree with you both here. Wise words.
> 
> I was hoping personally that both side would tone down the rats in a sack approach but I fear that it's not been the case. Only today Farage was recorded in an interview saying that Jo Cox's murder stopped the 'momentum' of the Leave campaign. I find that unspeakably awful and can't imagine what her family must think.


I found Farage's comments out of order today. Although I will still be voting what I believe is right the tone of both campaigns needs to be toned down a notch or two as both campaigns have been aggressive. People will vote what they are going to vote as the majority of people have made there decision by now there is no need at this stage to throw lots of information in peoples faces, we have heard both arguments and have made our minds up. The continuation of the previous aggression displayed by both parties of the referendum will end up causing long lasting damage within the conservative party (no I dont support them as a party or Cameron, in fact I can't stand them) and in society.

I made my decision from not what anyone has said but what I feel is correct. I did though listen to what other people have had to say and read what people had to say as well, but I still feel we are better off out of the EU. My reasons for making this decision are my own and no one has influenced me what-so-ever. Making this decision does not make me racist or ignorant it is my decision.

I respect other peoples decisions may differ and I am fine with that.


----------



## Lilylass

TBH it makes absolutely no difference who is on the stay or who is on the leave list to me 

Personally, I'm quite capable of making my own decisions - I fail to see how seeing how others vote should make any difference to the choice 

If people are making their decision because someone they like is on the leave or stay side then that's pretty poor imho


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> The more I hear Boris more I feel I'm right vote to stay IN.


I'd take Boris over Farage any day !


----------



## havoc

_I'd take Boris over Farage any day !_
I understand the sentiment but the thought of either doesn't delight me and the thought of either with absolute authority absolutely petrifies me


----------



## Goblin

MoggyBaby said:


> Your 'Leave' list is looking a little bit thin on the ground so here's a further 250 to help you along.


Actually around 300 according to some statistics. Split around 50%.

Not a shock really considering. Even the CBI who are pro EU point out the damage restrictions on working practices Have. It specifically mentions the working time directive. If fact how about looking at the Beecroft Report from 2012. Getting rid of rid tape to promote growth. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-18136227

In a letter to The Times, around 198 healthcare professionals defended the EU as an overall benefit to UK public health, the NHS and health research.


> Sir,
> 
> As health professionals and researchers we write to highlight the valuable benefits of continued EU membership to the NHS, medical innovation and UK public health.
> 
> We have made enormous progress over decades in international health research, health services innovation and public health. Much has been built around shared policies and capacity across the EU. The future for European citizens' health lies in international collaboration and teamwork.
> 
> EU trade deals will not privatise the NHS as the EU negotiating position now contains clear safeguards. Decisions on NHS privatisation are in UK government hands alone. EU immigration is a net benefit to our NHS in terms of finances, staffing and exchanges.
> 
> Finally, leaving the EU would not provide a financial windfall for the NHS. The UK's contribution to the EU budget is part of an agreement allowing access to the Single Market. If we pulled out, adverse economic consequences far larger than any nominal savings are widely anticipated. This would jeopardise an already cash-strapped NHS.
> 
> Our health services, health research collaborations and public health protection are more robust within the EU. Leaving would damage the progress we have made together. Brexit should carry a health warning.


Could provide a list of names but easily looked up for those who can be bothered.

Facts are always a problem. So why don't we look at EU expert, long but worth it.


----------



## Colliebarmy

If this was a "Join the EU" vote knowing we would wreck our fishing industry, allow in millions of migrants to decimate housing stocks, burden the NHS and pay out millions in benefits, plus losing control of our borders and hand over sovereignty in legal matters to Brussels, how would we vote?

oh, and knowing it would cost us billions per year to join....


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> And its the tory government that have been busy undermining EU legislation that protects us & our environment. Had we a progressive government things could be very different.


It seems they have  but not on their own

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jan/14/uk-defeats-european-bid-fracking-regulations
"Leaked documents from the European commission, obtained by the Euractiv news service and seen by the Guardian, show that attempts to safeguard the environment with a new legally binding directive have been defeated by the UK and its allies, which include Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic. Instead, a set of non-binding "recommendations" covering protection against water contamination and potential earthquakes will be published on 22 January. "

Even if a new government was voted in , that doesn 't mean to say the new rules would be passed.
( This was 2014 , I'm not sure if anything has changed since then . )



> Labour acknowledge the desperate need for social housing & want to build houses to alleviate the problem. The tories on the other hand, just want to develop & industrialise our countryside for corporate profit.


Corbyn said wants to rebuild and invest more in the North .

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-pledges-rebuild-north-6194921

"It's why I want a National Investment Bank to invest in new infrastructure across Britain: in affordable housing, rail and industry; and a national education service for lifelong learning and apprenticeships.
It means regulating bus services and public ownership of our railways to link up our Northern towns and cities."

Wouldn't the HS2 be a part of that? There are no clear plans in that link so its difficult to comment on.

ETA According to wiki , it was the Labour idea for HS2 back in 2009 not the Conservatives

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_2
In January 2009 the Labour government established High Speed Two Limited (HS2 Ltd), chaired by Sir David Rowlands,[11] to examine the case for a new high-speed line and present a potential route between London and the West Midlands.[12] The government report suggested that the line could be extended to reach Scotland.[13]

Drawing on consultations carried out for the Department for Transport (DfT) and Network Rail, HS2 Ltd would provide advice on options for a Heathrow International interchange station, access to central London, connectivity with HS1 and the existing rail network, and financing and construction,[14] and report to the government on the first stage by the end of 2009.[15]

Boris is against the third runway, as was Goldsmith the other contender for mayor, the Tory Richmond MP



> We are the windiest country in Europe - Of course wind power (combined with other sources of renewable energy) will sustain the amount of housing needed. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/10/denmark-wind-windfarm-power-exceed-electricity-demand .


I dont know whether we are the windiest country or not . I do know that Denmark is a third the size of the Uk and their population is about 5/6 million and UK about 65m so it is easier for them to provide enough electric with wind power. How much country land will we lose to wind farms ?
What other renewable sources would we combine them with.



> Oh we've already got development all around here & they've got much worse planned for us in the 'desolate north'. Fracking licences have been dished out right across my county.


 I'm sorry, must be a nightmare for you all.


----------



## Colliebarmy

whats the requirements of this vote for us to leave?

biggest vote NO and we leave?

leaving requires over 51%?

its a total count, not like a GE i guess


----------



## CanIgoHome

when are people going to realise that if we don't get out now its will be the end of the UK 

will never got this op again in our live time


----------



## Colliebarmy

The fracking decision in North Yorkshire last night gives a good illustration of the folly of EU membership.

The simple fact is, if residents don't like the decision they can vote to replace the councillors who support fracking in their area.

By way of contrast, if we in this country don't like an EU directive - and there have been more than 70 instances where the UK has opposed EU legislative proposals, and every single time our opposition has been voted down and our objection has been over rule, meaning we have been left to implement EU laws or rules against our wishes - we have no way of changing it or removing the people who imposed it on us.


----------



## Colliebarmy

can i vote on the 23rd?

we have moved 8 miles, we are still on the electoral register at old address, we have polling cards, we still live in the same district council area

we have 3 LEAVE votes to cast


----------



## Happy Paws2

CanIgoHome said:


> when are people going to realise that if we don't get out now its will be the end of the UK


What planet do you live on, I've never heard so much rubbish in my life.


----------



## havoc

_allow in millions of migrants to decimate housing stocks_
What did they do - blow them up, knock them down? If I though for one moment we wouldn't have our current housing crisis but for immigrants I'd understand the argument. It's more likely they're building houses rather than 'decimating' the current stock.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws said:


> What planet do you live on, I've never heard so much rubbish in my life.


It won't be the end of the UK.

But, we probably won't get another opportunity to leave.

I wish we had never gone in.


----------



## Colliebarmy

*How long will it take for Britain to leave the EU?*
This was a question asked by many people. The minimum period after a vote to leave would be two years. During that time Britain would continue to abide by EU treaties and laws, but not take part in any decision-making, as it negotiated a withdrawal agreement and the terms of its relationship with the now 27 nation bloc. In practice it may take longer than two years, depending on how the negotiations go.

*Could MPs block an EU exit if Britain votes for it?*
Michael, from East Sussex asks an intriguing question - could the necessary legislation pass the Commons if all SNP and Lib Dems, nearly all Labour and many Conservative MPs were in favour of staying?

The answer is that technically MPs could block an EU exit - but it would be seen as political suicide to go against the will of the people as expressed in a referendum. The referendum result is not legally binding - Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act.

The withdrawal agreement would also have to be ratified by Parliament - the House of Lords and/or the Commons could vote against ratification, according to a House of Commons library report.

It adds: _"If the Commons resolves against ratification, the treaty can still be ratified if the Government lays a statement explaining why the treaty should nonetheless be ratified and the House of Commons does not resolve against ratification a second time within 21 days (this process can be repeated ad infinitum)."_


----------



## Colliebarmy

havoc said:


> _allow in millions of migrants to decimate housing stocks_
> What did they do - blow them up, knock them down? If I though for one moment we wouldn't have our current housing crisis but for immigrants I'd understand the argument. It's more likely they're building houses rather than 'decimating' the current stock.


work it out

we have no housing stocks with millions of migrants in the UK, it might be good for BTL and HMO landlords but councils have no welfare stock now

remove 5 million migrants, free up housing stocks, let the BTL business collapse, let house prices fall....happy days


----------



## kimthecat

Corbyn today -

There can be no upper limit on the number of people coming into the UK while there is free movement of labour in the EU, Jeremy Corbyn has said.
Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr show, the Labour leader defended immigration, saying people should turn their anger towards Conservative austerity instead.

If poverty was allowed to increase in parts of Europe, people were bound to look for somewhere else to go, he said.

Asked if there could be an upper limit for immigration, Mr Corbyn said: "I don't think you can have one while you have the free movement of labour.

"I think the free movement of labour means you have to balance the economy so you have to improve living standards and conditions and so that means the European Union's appalling treatment of Greece, particularly the European Central Bank as well as the European Union, that is a problem.
"If you actually deliberately lower living standards and increase poverty in certain countries in south-east and eastern Europe then you're bound to have a flow of people looking for somewhere else to go.

"Surely the issue is an anti-austerity, a growth package all across Europe rather than this," he added.

"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36570383


----------



## Satori

havoc said:


> And as for Boris - I'm completely convinced he would have taken any position which opposed Cameron in the hope of getting his job.


Evidently Cameron's job doesn't need to be done at all. Cameron is doing Stuart Rose's job on a full-time basis atm.


----------



## Colliebarmy

The EU has wanted our gold reserves and our financial markets (London) and we cant leave for 2 years even with a LEAVE vote, what will they do in those 2 years?


----------



## Jonescat

Colliebarmy said:


> whats the requirements of this vote for us to leave?
> 
> biggest vote NO and we leave?
> 
> leaving requires over 51%?
> 
> its a total count, not like a GE i guess


Yes - Whichever side gets more than half of all votes cast is considered to have won.


----------



## Goblin

Colliebarmy said:


> We have no housing stocks


We will not get housing stock until we invest in the country. Unfortunately we've lost key industries which contributed money to be spent on that infrastructure. This had nothing to do with the EU or immigrants. Immigrants taking housing/NHS etc is a red herring considering the absolute % of people in the UK. Fact remains immigrants pay more into society than they take out.


----------



## havoc

How many Brits currently live in EU countries and will have to come back if we go down the route of kicking out EU migrants? Perhaps a whole new industry will spring up organising straight swaps of accommodation.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Unfortunately we've lost key industries which contributed money to be spent on that infrastructure.
> This had nothing to do with the EU..


 So if losing key industries is nothing to do with the EU , it wont make any difference if we leave.


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> So if losing key industries is nothing to do with the EU , it wont make any difference if we leave.


Great recent example, the steel industry, which Farage is only too keen to blame on the EU. Guess which country was instrumental on preventing the EU from imposing trading tariffs on Chinese Steel imports by refusing to remove something called the lesser duty rule? If something helps support industry, what happens when that support is removed?


----------



## CanIgoHome

Happy Paws said:


> What planet do you live on, I've never heard so much rubbish in my life.


the longer we stay in the EU the more more power we give it over OUR LAWS
EU laws out rule our laws

look what happened with vacuum cleaner nothing over a 1000 watts in power because its bad for the environment but your be doing the vacuum twice as long to clean the floor and double the power used
what will be next on the list ??

EU trade agreements are useless because you trade to the regulation of the countries you trade with

how many more people will came to the UK if the 6 counties on the list join the EU soon


----------



## HollynSmudge

CanIgoHome said:


> the longer we stay in the EU the more more power we give it over OUR LAWS
> EU laws out rule our laws
> 
> look what happened with vacuum cleaner nothing over a 1000 watts in power because its bad for the environment but your be doing the vacuum twice as long to clean the floor and double the power used
> what will be next on the list ??
> 
> EU trade agreements are useless because you trade to the regulation of the countries you trade with
> 
> how many more people will came to the UK if the 6 on the list join the EU soon


Purely from a scientific point of view I think we can all make do with a 999.9W hoover. Especially if it means helping to reduce the amount of damage humans are doing to the environment. Personally I believe we should go further, ban all shops from having lighting on after they shut, no electronic advert screens, basically any waste of electricity we should attempt to stop.


----------



## CanIgoHome

HollynSmudge said:


> Purely from a scientific point of view I think we can all make do with a 999.9W hoover. Especially if it means helping to reduce the amount of damage humans are doing to the environment. Personally I believe we should go further, ban all shops from having lighting on after they shut, *no electronic advert screens*, basically any waste of electricity we should attempt to stop.


every time I go shopping I alway see someone kid touching the screen because its parent can't control the kids and the kid thinking its a iPad or tablet 
I hate the things because I hate how bright the screen is


----------



## Satori

havoc said:


> How many Brits currently live in EU countries and will have to come back if we go down the route of kicking out EU migrants? Perhaps a whole new industry will spring up organising straight swaps of accommodation.


Who has ever suggested kicking out EU migrants?


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Great recent example, the steel industry, which Farage is only too keen to blame on the EU. Guess which country was instrumental on preventing the EU from imposing trading tariffs on Chinese Steel imports by refusing to remove something called the lesser duty rule? If something helps support industry, what happens when that support is removed?


 That's a great shame about the steel industry but about the lesser duty rule =.
It seems that a lot of other countries were against removing it , this was in 2014 . I do'nt know if it has changed since then,

"But the backers consider that the lesser principle rule is the "cornerstone" of a "balanced" approach.

In their view, restricting the use of this principle would harm other parts of the value chain, meaning that, at the end, the price would be paid by importers, users and consumers.

Ireland, Finland, Estonia, Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Latvia, Malta, the Netherlands Slovenia, Sweden and the United Kingdom are part of this group.

In the opposite camp, a small group led by France supported the efforts of the Italian Presidency, the Commission and the European Parliament to impose higher tariffs. "

"
http://www.euractiv.com/section/inn...vision-dilutes-efforts-against-steel-dumping/


----------



## Happy Paws2

havoc said:


> *How many Brits currently live in EU countries and will have to come back* if we go down the route of kicking out EU migrants? Perhaps a whole new industry will spring up organising straight swaps of accommodation.


That is *not* true, but live will not be so easy for them, their health care will chance for a start.


----------



## havoc

_Who has ever suggested kicking out EU migrants?_
Now I am confused. Are you suggesting that if we leave then the right to live and work here will stay unchanged for EU citizens and Brits will retain that same right for the rest of the EU?


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> That's a great shame about the steel industry but about the lesser duty rule =.
> It seems that a lot of other countries were against removing it , this was in 2014 . I do'nt know if it has changed since then


Which shows a couple of things:

The EU is a democracy. It isn't run by unelected bureaucrats as many believe or preach. (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/robin-lustig/eu-referendum-brussels-bureaucrats_b_10391770.html)

Efforts were made to save the industry. The UK blocked it.
Yet another lie by opportunistic Farage who doesn't let things like "facts" get in the way of good propaganda. After all he apparantly worked for the Steel industry so he knows what he is talking about. "Take back control" is another lie from the leave campaign. So that's 350 million to spend on the NHS lie and the take back control. Wait, apart from immigration, they are the cornerstones of the leave campaign. No wonder we should ignore the experts who may highlight the facts.

The other important issue about the steel issue an lesser duty rule is a fundamental one, We are not alone or unique. Most of the problems we face are ones other countries within the EU also face. Immigration being a prime example but industry threats another. Why not work together to solve the problems? When it comes to things like the environment, we cannot simply hide behind a wall/channel. What is done by neighbours can directly affect the UK and vice versa. I don't hear about it any more but anyone remember "acid rain"? The same goes for shared resources. Fish don't belong to a single flag and a lot of "UK fish" for the quota are actually caught in foreign, not UK waters.


----------



## havoc

I increasingly get the feeling a lot of people could end up very disappointed. There seems to be a misguided idea that any and all problems are the fault of EU membership and if we leave it will be sunshine and bluebirds all the way.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> In what way? I know they aren't such a crowded country but apart from space, what is better?


This country used to be known for our fairness and compassion - not anymore, thanks to all the fear & hate mongering.

Well said Owen -

*Owen Jones* ‏@OwenJones84  Jun 17
I love this country, but never have I been so scared about it. The growing bitterness, resentment and hatred is genuinely frightening.



MrsZee said:


> You have clearly spend a lot of time getting the facts right. Respect, Noushka.


Thats very kind of you, thank you Mrs Zee xx



stockwellcat said:


> If you want to watch a movie this Saturday or Sunday, Brexit the movie has been released:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry it has already been put on here, I must have missed it as this thread has got so long


Oh God, I've just realised Martin Durkin made this 'movie'  He is a known propagandist. He is the eejit responsible for the 'Great Global Warming Swindle' lol And just scanning through the movie I notice he has interviews with James "interpreter of interpretations" Delingpole:Hilarious & another climate change denying fruitcake, coal baron, Matt Ridley. This movie has zero credibility. Please don't fall for it. If you dont believe me just do a bit of research into the above names. They are a source of ridicule amongst environmentalists & scientists!



Colliebarmy said:


> If this was a "Join the EU" vote knowing we would wreck our fishing industry, allow in millions of migrants to decimate housing stocks, burden the NHS and pay out millions in benefits, plus losing control of our borders and hand over sovereignty in legal matters to Brussels, how would we vote?
> 
> oh, and knowing it would cost us billions per year to join....


So much misinformation in one paragraph. Without quotas fish stocks would collapse. How will that benefit fishermen - or biodiversity? Migrants are not decimating housing stocks - the tories are selling them off. Most migrants live in private rented accomodation. The NHS is deliberately being underfunded and privatised by the tories - its collapse has nothing to do with migrants.



kimthecat said:


> It seems they have  but not on their own
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jan/14/uk-defeats-european-bid-fracking-regulations
> "Leaked documents from the European commission, obtained by the Euractiv news service and seen by the Guardian, show that attempts to safeguard the environment with a new legally binding directive have been defeated by the UK and its allies, which include Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic. Instead, a set of non-binding "recommendations" covering protection against water contamination and potential earthquakes will be published on 22 January. "
> 
> Even if a new government was voted in , that doesn 't mean to say the new rules would be passed.
> ( This was 2014 , I'm not sure if anything has changed since then . )
> 
> Corbyn said wants to rebuild and invest more in the North .
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-pledges-rebuild-north-6194921
> 
> "It's why I want a National Investment Bank to invest in new infrastructure across Britain: in affordable housing, rail and industry; and a national education service for lifelong learning and apprenticeships.
> It means regulating bus services and public ownership of our railways to link up our Northern towns and cities."
> 
> Wouldn't the HS2 be a part of that? There are no clear plans in that link so its difficult to comment on.
> Boris is against the third runway, as was Goldsmith the other contender for mayor, the Tory Richmond MP
> 
> I dont know whether we are the windiest country or not . I do know that Denmark is a third the size of the Uk and their population is about 5/6 million and UK about 65m so it is easier for them to provide enough electric with wind power. How much country land will we lose to wind farms ?
> What other renewable sources would we combine them with.
> 
> I'm sorry, must be a nightmare for you all.


Cameron led intense lobbying to get support - http://www.swgreenerin.org.uk/standing-up-to-fracking-in-the-eu/ Thats why we need a progressive government. One that represents the best interests of the public & the environment & not corporate interests. This tory government terrifies me & the brexit tories are even more extreme. They are our biggest treat not the EU, not migrants - not even ISIS!

This government are not only destroying individual lives with their policies, but they are prepared to destroy our very life support system for short term gain. Did you know eco systems are collapsing ,now, in our lifetime, due to climate change? And this rotten government are doing everything in their power to speed up the process. Where will all the refugees displaced by climate change go? Will we turn our backs on them too?

*Wind Energy*
The UK is the windiest country in Europe and could power itself several times over using wind >

http://www.renewableuk.com/en/renewable-energy/wind-energy/

Renewable energy is now the main source of electricity in the EU, Kim, providing 44% of last years electrical capacity. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-in-2015-report-shows?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Jeremy Corbyn is a conviction politician his environmental credentials are far superior to Camerons. He's not in Caroline Lucas's league but hes been pretty good. And he wants to invest in a green economy. http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_a...corbyn_the_green_britain_i_want_to_build.html And as for social issues, Corbyn has always represented the 99%

David Cameron is the antithesis of Corbyn. Cameron serves the interests of big business & hedge funders who bankroll his party as his voting history proves. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10777/david_cameron/witney/votes

*How David Cameron voted on Environmental Issues #*

Voted a mixture of for and against measures to prevent climate changeShow votes
Has never voted on lower taxes on fuel for motor vehicles
Consistently voted for selling England's state owned forestsShow votes
Has never voted on higher taxes on plane tickets
Voted a mixture of for and against financial incentives for low carbon emission electricity generation methodsShow votes
Generally voted for culling badgers to tackle bovine tuberculosisShow votes
Generally voted for greater regulation of hydraulic fracturing (fracking) to extract shale gas

Aw thank you Kim, I am frightened. I don't want fracking on my doorstep or anyone else's - I am upset fracking is happening anywhere, it poisons everything. And they intend to dump the toxic waste in the sea. - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...dump-wastewater-in-sea-ineos?CMP=share_btn_tw



Colliebarmy said:


> The fracking decision in North Yorkshire last night gives a good illustration of the folly of EU membership.
> 
> The simple fact is, if residents don't like the decision they can vote to replace the councillors who support fracking in their area.
> 
> By way of contrast, if we in this country don't like an EU directive - and there have been more than 70 instances where the UK has opposed EU legislative proposals, and every single time our opposition has been voted down and our objection has been over rule, meaning we have been left to implement EU laws or rules against our wishes - we have no way of changing it or removing the people who imposed it on us.


Sorry but you are completely wrong - http://www.swgreenerin.org.uk/standing-up-to-fracking-in-the-eu/ The EU may be rubbish but it still better protects us & the environment than this government ever will.


----------



## noushka05

Has anyone read the last article Jo Cox wrote?

*Jo Cox: Brexit is no answer to real concerns on immigration*








*Jo Cox says immigration concerns are not a legitimate reason to vote for Brexit.*

IN the final days of the EU referendum campaign, the issue of immigration will high on the agenda of many voters.

Let me be clear from the start: it's fine to be concerned about immigration - many people are.

This doesn't mean to say they are racist or xenophobic - they are simply concerned about pressures on GP surgeries or schools, or how once familiar town centres are changing, or whether they'll be able to compete with migrant workers to get a job.

Most people recognise that there are positive sides of migration too. Whether it is providing the skilled workers we need for our economy, or the amazing doctors and nurses from abroad who help run our health service, the UK has reaped the benefits from immigration.

But I strongly believe that concerns about immigration - as legitimate as they are - are not a reason to vote for Brexit. This is why:

First, because leaving the EU won't solve the problem. Over half of all migrants to Britain come from outside the EU, and the result of this referendum will do nothing to bring these numbers down.

In fact, the leaders of the Vote Leave campaign have been promising that Brexit will allow Government to actually increase the amount of immigration from outside the EU, opening up a whole new tier of immigration to fill short-term vacancies.

Read more:http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ncerns-on-immigration-1-7956822#ixzz4C6hvhWOD

The Leave campaign has also already agreed that all EU migrants who are here legally should be able to stay in Britain even if we vote out. That's the right thing to do - but it's important that voters are not under any false illusion that a vote to leave would reduce the number of European migrants currently in Britain.

In addition, the Leave camp have called for an Australian-style points-based system for migrants, and yet Australia has twice as many migrants per person than we do.

What's more, the whole purpose of the Aussie system is to give businesses more control over who they bring into the country - which tends to be the cheapest workers - forcing down wages and doing absolutely nothing to address concerns about insecure employment.

And most important of all, voters need to know that the free movement of EU citizens to Britain would not automatically stop if we left. Countries that remain part of the EU's single market, such as Norway - a model often used by the "out" campaign - have a higher rate of immigration from EU countries than the UK because free movement is a mandatory part of having unfettered access to the single market. The other option is, of course, to leave the single market altogether, which all experts agree would be catastrophic for businesses and jobs in our region.

Read more: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ncerns-on-immigration-1-7956822#ixzz4C6hfkh00

Second, we can deal with migration while remaining in the EU.

It is right and fair that people who come to Britain pay something into the welfare system before they can take something out. That's why Labour has long pushed for an end to the payment of benefits to people who don't live permanently in this country, and for a major extension of the time EU migrants have to wait before being able to claim benefits - a commitment now secured by the Prime Minister as part of the renegotiation deal. It's also time to protect the going rate for skilled workers, and to stop the exploitation of cheap migrant labour. We can do all of this while remaining within the EU.

We can also do more to help communities facing the greatest pressures. We know that EU migrants who arrived in the UK since 2001 contributed £20 billion more to our economy than they've taken out in benefits. But this money shouldn't just disappear into the Treasury coffers. We need a clear formula to ensure that the taxes that migrants contribute go quickly to the areas where they are living, to make sure that local health services and schools get the funding they need when the population changes.

Read more: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ncerns-on-immigration-1-7956822#ixzz4C6hbMRW2

These practical changes will help ensure that people come to our country for the right reasons. They will know that when they work hard, speak English and play by the rules, they will find that Britain is the sort of country that welcomes them. And we will know that the system is fair, under control and works for the British people.

And finally - and perhaps most importantly - the overall benefits of EU membership are huge. While the leave camp are trying to distract voters, their economic case has been completely demolished by everyone from the President of the United States to small and medium businesses in Yorkshire. On this there is no doubt, leaving the EU would hurt Yorkshire businesses and hit our own pockets.

Please don't fall for the spin prior to June 23 that the only way to deal with concerns about immigration is by voting to leave - that simply is not the case.

Immigration is a legitimate concern, but it's not a good reason to leave the EU. I very rarely agree with the Prime Minister but on this he's right: we are stronger, safer and better off in.

Jo Cox is the Labour MP for Batley and Spen.

Read more: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ncerns-on-immigration-1-7956822#ixzz4C6hVbYTU


----------



## Colliebarmy

We are better out than in, they cant touch us if we leave, cant rule us, but wont wanna lose our market for Euro-goods including all the cars they sell here, they need us....so saying trade will be affected is cobblers

count how many French, German, Italian other Eur-cars are parked in your street or at the supermarket


----------



## Colliebarmy

anyway, the PF vote means we leave, in fact almost every real poll i see says the same

this one has only in/out as options

massive out vote (percentage wise)


----------



## havoc

_so saying trade will be affected is cobblers_

And demand for our goods will stay the same or increase within the EU if we leave?


----------



## ellenlouisepascoe

I am very late to this thread however I will be voting IN , much to the dismay of most of my family. 

I haven't really seen all the campaigns etc because I don't watch TV / The News and have only recently ventured back into the world of Facebook. 

From what I have read through my own independent research is we have more to lose out than we do in


----------



## havoc

_they cant touch us if we leave, *cant rule us, but wont wanna lose our market for Euro-goods *including all the cars they sell here_
So if we leave we'll then let the rest of Europe decide what they want to export into this country and on what terms???????


----------



## Goblin

Colliebarmy said:


> We are better out than in, they cant touch us if we leave, cant rule us, but wont wanna lose our market for Euro-goods including all the cars they sell here, they need us....so saying trade will be affected is cobblers


According to what actual facts rather than propaganda and wishful thinking? Sweden thought the same. Now has 120 bilateral agreements, equivalent to abiding to EU rules along with free movement. It's also not simply a matter of "wont wanna lose our market". It's a case of agreements being automatically nullified and replacements required which can take 10 years or so. Leaving the EU means all other trade agreements become null and void between the UK and countries all over the world. Every single one would have to be renegotiated and we cannot promise access to the EU as a bribe.

As to forum screen capture, I'm sure you count less than 40 as a credible sample size from a source you do not even reference. It's recognised that those who want to leave are more vocal in their opinions and actually more likely to vote.


----------



## petforum

Just to let you know, I've made this poll a sticky in the right and column on the homepage.


----------



## HollynSmudge

I'm afraid I'm not very eloquent with words and really struggle to write things are are in my head nicely, so I'll just leave this here. It sums up my views fairly well. I do believe if we work together there is so much good that could be done, we just need to embrace the fact that we are part of the EU and try to help instead of being apathetic or not liking something because someone not British suggested it.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Which shows a couple of things:
> 
> 
> 
> Efforts were made to save the industry. The UK blocked it.
> .


 Along with other countries but UK governments change and even if Labour didn't want to block it , it still would have been blocked by EU.


----------



## petforum

I think a lot of people are happy to stay in the EU because it's the safe thing to do. It's like working for a large company when you have a decent job. The majority of people wouldn't want to leave the safety of their job to start their own business for fear of failing. However, it's the few percent of people who have the guts and determination to go and start their own business that are the most successful and reap the most rewards. I think this is similar to the EU, we should leave and become even more successful on our own. We already have a great start.

We are being dragged down in the EU by countries that aren't as successful as our own, and being held back from our true potential.

I say vote leave.


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> Along with other countries but UK governments change and even if Labour didn't want to block it , it still would have been blocked by EU.


Not necessarily. 73 of the EU votes are held by the UK as well as the UK having influence in general. With the UK actually trying to persuade others to agree through debate it could of worked out totally different.


----------



## Colliebarmy

we should never have joined, we arent European, we are an island race, and i think that chunnel was a big mistake too


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> I increasingly get the feeling a lot of people could end up very disappointed. There seems to be a misguided idea that any and all problems are the fault of EU membership and if we leave it will be sunshine and bluebirds all the way.


 You could say vice versa. The E U will be able to make everything hunky dory in Syria so all the refugees will be able to return to their country etc etc .


----------



## havoc

_ Every single one would have to be renegotiated and we cannot promise access to the EU as a bribe._
That's something being carefully ignored. Does anyone really think firms like Toyota invested here and created so many jobs because they wanted to sell cars in the UK - or because it gave them access to the largest single market in the world in one hit? I know they won't close down and ship out the day after the vote if we leave but I doubt we'll attract the same level of investment from non EU countries in the future.


----------



## rona

Just watched Question Time with David Cameron. He made a good argument *but* what really stood out were the several awkward questions that he side stepped with repetitive drivel


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Not necessarily. 73 of the EU votes are held by the UK as well as the UK having influence in general. With the UK actually trying to persuade others to agree through debate it could of worked out totally different.


We have 73 votes , I don't know how many the other countries have , do you know ? Quite a few countries agreed with the UK. I cant do the maths .

@rona What questions did he ignore? Corbyn is doing one , I don't think he will sidestep.

i think its good to have discussions because whether you agree or not , you learn stuff! I'm all binged and googled out , I'll be glad when its all over.


----------



## Bisbow

I personally have yet to meet anyone who admits to be voting IN. Friends, family, people walking dogs and even on holiday last week not one person wanted to stay and that included young people
It is not immigration alone, a lot say but this is a small island and we just can't cope with the numbers without people from countries that want to join, we can't make the country bigger
One young person said "We will sink into the sea and drown at this rate" a bit of exaggeration but I get the point


----------



## stockwellcat.

My favourite moment of the referendum so far:


----------



## MollySmith

I have found this - it's very thorough as befits the Open University but I think it's best guide I've read - recommended and I've made up my mind.
http://www.open.edu/openlearn/people-politics-law/the-uks-eu-referendum-or-out

I counted 50 remain posters in one street on my way to work today, over half the houses.


----------



## kimthecat

We're a pet forum but not much discussion has a been about pets and livestock and how they benefit from EU rules.


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> We're a pet forum but not much discussion has a been about pets and livestock and how they benefit from EU rules.


I expect its a mixed bag , and perhaps not all countries stick to the law anyway 

I meant to edit my post but replied to it by mistake  God, am I tired !


----------



## kimthecat

What if the vote is 50 /50 . Will there have to be another vote ?


----------



## Guest

I have been following this thread with interest, just to get a feel for where people are. 
It's very interesting to me how so many of the arguments being made for IN vs. LEAVE are so similar to the arguments being made in the US presidential race. Fear mongering on both sides, creating fear of a common enemy to fight against, an "us" vs. "them" dichotomy. While a fascinating social/psychological study, it's also kind of depressing....



havoc said:


> I increasingly get the feeling a lot of people could end up very disappointed. There seems to be a misguided idea that any and all problems are the fault of EU membership and if we leave it will be sunshine and bluebirds all the way.


I think so too - but regardless of what the vote ends up being. I think either side will be disappointed if they get their way, thinking the simple solution is to either stay or leave. There are no simple solutions.

The truth is, stay or leave, (or on this side of the pond republican or democrat) things will go on as always, we will still be governed by a select few who are bought and paid for by big corporations and the elite few, we will still continue to destroy planetary resources, wage unnecessary wars, create divisiveness, blame the "other" for our problems and fail to see that we are being duped all along.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> What if the vote is 50 /50 . Will there have to be another vote ?


No is the answer to that as we have been told it is a once in a life time vote. So I don't know what would happen in this situation but no doubt Cameron will swing it in his favour to get his way if it ended up 50/50.

EDITED: I just wanted to add I would disagree if the above scenario happened and I think there would be uproar as well if this happened. Cameron done alot of dodgy things during his campaign and he even extended the registration period for people to register to vote which could be construed as rigging the vote if this isn't a fair vote.


----------



## havoc

_we will still be governed by a select few who are bought and paid for by big corporations and the elite few,_
Absolutely true. The difference will be whether the little man has the protection of a tier of justice outwith a system obsessed with secrecy.


----------



## MoggyBaby

And THIS is one of the main reasons I am voting out:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...nd-airfares-could-be-taxed-under-radical-pro/

There is a massive blackhole in the EU Budget - not exactly a secret I know - but the backhanded actions of postponing the discussion on this issue until after the Referendum means that many people will be voting to stay in, not realising just how they are going to be stitched up just a few months later.


----------



## MoggyBaby

And then this too:

http://capx.co/eu-officials-all-at-sea-over-ports-legislation/

It is becomming more and more clear that the UK is considered to be an EU Cash Cow with very few benefits in return.


----------



## Goblin

MollySmith said:


> I have found this - it's very thorough as befits the Open University but I think it's best guide I've read - recommended and I've made up my mind.
> http://www.open.edu/openlearn/people-politics-law/the-uks-eu-referendum-or-out


Interesting the disclaimer. *Please note: The opinions expressed in this hub are those of the individual authors, and do not represent the views of The Open University.*
So not the "befits the Open University" as you claim. Opinions with no detailed references. Able to recognise problems and misinformation in the first page I looked at.


----------



## Goblin

Just came across:
















Signed by over 5,500 scientists. So 88% economists, 94% research scientists and engineers...


----------



## stockwellcat.

> *Signed by over 5,500 scientists. So 88% economists, 94% research scientists and engineers..*.


A small minority in comparison to how many people live in the UK.

The scaremongering in the final days of the campaign is personally going over my head. Just wish tomorrow was Thursday so we could all vote and get this over with.

I am still voting leave so this country can exit the EU.


----------



## HollynSmudge

stockwellcat said:


> A small minority in comparison to how many people live in the UK.
> 
> The scaremongering in the final days of the campaign is personally going over my head. Just wish tomorrow was Thursday so we could all vote and get this over with.
> 
> I am still voting leave so this country can exit the EU.


A small minority, but in general I think people who don't work in these fields underestimate how much benefit they bring to the uk. And I believe collaboration with other countries, sharing money for projects etc is a good thing that we do not want to lose.


----------



## havoc

_A small minority in comparison to how many people live in the UK._
It is but they are people who make a difference. This country suffered from a 'brain drain' in the past - for different reasons but it hurt us to lose so much talent.


----------



## rona

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialSpectator/?fref=nf


----------



## kimthecat

Corbyn is only doing one live Q&A on the Referendum , its on Sky News tonight at 6pm (Mon 20th ). sky news is on freeview channel number 132 .

ETA Larry the downing street cat says on twitter
"Has anyone considered the possibility that the rest of the countries might chuck us out of the EU on Wednesday for a bit of a laugh? "

LOL I can imagine Angela Merkel et al are rolling their eyes saying For heavens sake , just go !


----------



## Goblin

Spectator is interesting. It believes in free unregulated markets. In otherwords companies should do as they wish as that is the way to achieve growth. They support initiatives like the Beecroft report. So what did the spectator support in the Beecroft Report:


"no fault dismissals" or "sack-at-will". This is a proposal to make it much easier for companies to just sack employees that are no longer needed, employees that complain about poor or dangerous working conditions, employees that are impertinent enough to ask for pay rises or employees they just don't like the look of.
Limit amount companies must pay for unfair dismissal.
removal of "carry-over legislation" which makes it easier for hedge funds etc to get rid of long established workers hedge funds, private equity firms etc aquire when asset stripping aquired companies.
Scrapping parts of the equality act making employers liable for claims from employees for "third party harassment".
companies not to be held responsible for checking foreign workers eligibility to work.
Do these sound like the people want to support? These are the sort of things protected under the EU. Will the government protect them? Ian Duncan Smith when asked said workers rights need to be "flexible".


----------



## diefenbaker

HollynSmudge said:


> A small minority, but in general I think people who don't work in these fields underestimate how much benefit they bring to the uk. And I believe collaboration with other countries, sharing money for projects etc is a good thing that we do not want to lose.


Oh no. Am I going to lose my access to the Large Hadron Collider ?


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, cheekyscrip:

Now that *Donald Trump* has endorsed Brexit, we can feel so much better about it..

...you don't say!

/QUOTE
.
.
a brief detour, then i'll reconnect it to the topic -
I'm not in the UK, so won't be voting In or Out, but if Frump, the Haircut that Ran for POTUS, is actually elected, i intend to claim political asylum in Canada.
.
I do not totally discount the possibility that Frump COULD be elected - after all, the Merikan electorate voted Ronnie in for a 2nd term, even after his godawful economic & political decisions during his 1st term. Ronnie was an actor - he was photogenic, could *act *presidential, & the media adored him for his ability to throw quotable quips.
While U chuckled at his turn of phrase, U were liable to forget that he'd just neatly avoided answering the question entirely & diverted the discussion.
.
Frump is, IMO, a narrow-minded bigot & an egomaniac who shamelessly self-promotes, while cheerfully forgetting his many failures. He likes to portray himself as a highly-successful businessman, but just recently an appeal court-case by former workers at *one* of his *multiple* shuttered Atlantic City casino-hotels, trying to get some pension payments, was once again denied - Trump would open a showplace, coin money briefly, begin losing $$, declare bankruptcy, & walk off.
Workers were left holding the (empty) bag.
.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/nyregion/donald-trump-atlantic-city.html
.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/05/supreme-court-considering-case-against-trump-taj-mahal
.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/po...rs-his-wake/b1sl0EADDtgm2rGcoAz3UK/story.html
.
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/10/30/trumps-big-atlantic-city-dump-385427.html
.
Yet he still portrays himself as a winner -
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/despite-bankruptcies-trump-defends-his-record-in-atlantic-city/
.
Ppl like the fact that he supposedly "tells it like it is", but even more-often he tells it like it ISN'T. He likes slogans & bumper-sticker quotes; let's face it, complex issues can't be discussed using only sentences that fit neatly on a bumper-sticker or a campaign button. He's simplistic & reductionist, & a passionate supporter of corporate & capitalist interests - not the welfare of the worker or the ordinary Joe / Jane. He's a multi-millionaire, with no comprehension of what life as a minimum-wage worker entails. SERVICE INDUSTRIES - like nursing, janitors, health aides, waitrons, dog walkers, etc - cannot be 'outsourced' to other countries.
Is the US doomed to a future of Haves employing Have-Nots, with the Haves served by the disempowered poor?
.
to be continued...
.
.
.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Spectator is interesting. It believes in free unregulated markets. In otherwords companies should do as they wish as that is the way to achieve growth. They support initiatives like the Beecroft report. So what did the spectator support in the Beecroft Report:
> 
> 
> "no fault dismissals" or "sack-at-will". This is a proposal to make it much easier for companies to just sack employees that are no longer needed, employees that complain about poor or dangerous working conditions, employees that are impertinent enough to ask for pay rises or employees they just don't like the look of.
> Limit amount companies must pay for unfair dismissal.
> removal of "carry-over legislation" which makes it easier for hedge funds etc to get rid of long established workers hedge funds, private equity firms etc aquire when asset stripping aquired companies.
> Scrapping parts of the equality act making employers liable for claims from employees for "third party harassment".
> companies not to be held responsible for checking foreign workers eligibility to work.
> Do these sound like the people want to support? These are the sort of things protected under the EU. Will the government protect them? Ian Duncan Smith when asked said workers rights need to be "flexible".


I can find no indication to support your statement. Can you show a link?


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I can find no indication to support your statement. Can you show a link?


Several are no longer accessible but:

In terms of support - http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2012/05/the-need-for-a-coalition-attitude-to-growth/
Beecroft report - http://www.bbc.com/news/business-18136227

You'll notice Cameron was pushing for it as well. EU said no.


----------



## MollySmith

Goblin said:


> Interesting the disclaimer. *Please note: The opinions expressed in this hub are those of the individual authors, and do not represent the views of The Open University.*
> So not the "befits the Open University" as you claim. Opinions with no detailed references. Able to recognise problems and misinformation in the first page I looked at.


Ouch! I'm human and therefore make mistakes...:!!

It's easy to assume it was endorsed by the OU, as it's being hosted and promoted by them. Despite that, it's still educational and more independent than most media sources.


----------



## rona

That's just reporting surely?


----------



## kimthecat

diefenbaker said:


> Oh no. Am I going to lose my access to the Large Hadron Collider ?


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> I personally have yet to meet anyone who admits to be voting IN


@Bisbow: I met up with a couple of friends for coffee today and all three of us said _exactly the same as you do._ I personally know only one person admitting to voting remain and she actually said, 'I know I should vote out really, but....''. And everyone I know says the same; for this reason I cannot work out why IN and OUT are supposedly ''neck and neck''.


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> Corbyn is only doing one live Q&A on the Referendum , its on Sky News tonight at 6pm (Mon 20th ). sky news is on freeview channel number 132 .


Its a bit lame, not the grilling I expected . The interviewer isn't Dimbleby , perhaps it will warm up a bit when the audience relax and find their voice.
He's basically saying there's a lot wrong with the EU but once hes prime minister he will try to change it from the inside.

ETA he was only on for half and hour . he had an easy ride perhaps because of the young audience. One sais to him . You're not keen on Europe , which was a bit of an understatement.


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> @Bisbow: I met up with a couple of friends for coffee today and all three of us said _exactly the same as you do._ I personally know only one person admitting to voting remain and she actually said, 'I know I should vote out really, but....''. And everyone I know says the same; for this reason I cannot work out why IN and OUT are supposedly ''neck and neck''.


Funny even though I live in another country I know quite a few people in the UK who are definately voting to remain for various reasons.


----------



## Goblin

MollySmith said:


> Ouch! I'm human and therefore make mistakes...:!!


I didn't notice until I realised there was quite a bit false and unsupported. Nature of the beast and half the problem. Everyone has an agenda, it's working out what the agenda is.


----------



## havoc

_ for this reason I cannot work out why IN and OUT are supposedly ''neck and neck''._
There are plenty of 'out' voters who have thought it through and are voting out on how they see an overall picture but there are quite a few who are either single issue voters or are just rabidly xenophobic and there's no chance of reasoned debate with them. It's pretty obvious in my local who is going to vote which way and I'd say it's about 50/50 - the 'in' voters just stay quiet while the vocal 'out' voters are giving forth on how immigrants are stealing their jobs and houses and how far this magical pot of money is going to stretch once we're not paying it into the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Funny even though *I live in another country I know quite a few people in the UK who are definately voting to remain for various reasons.*


You seem very vocal seeing as you live in a different country on issues that concern the UK. I guess with you living in another country you won't be voting in out referendum?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> You seem very vocal seeing as you live in a different country on issues that concern the UK.


Why shouldn't I be? I am British and will be until I die. English-British-European. Not simply English-British.

I have Family/Friends who live in the UK.

94% of Brits in Germany say they will be be personally affected by the Brexit vote. Only 52.5% are going to vote. The most common reason, 85.9% aren't eligible to do so.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Why shouldn't I be? I am British and will be until I die. English-British-European. Not simply English-British.
> 
> 94% of Brits in Germany say they will be be personally affected by the Brexit vote. Only 52.5% are going to vote. The most common reason, 85.9% aren't eligible to do so.


I have lived abroad for 12 months and moved back to the UK in 1999 but never once did I refer to myself as English - British - European nor did I get dual nationalship (I chose not to). I have always classed myself as British. See this is what I personally don't like is that everyone classes themselves as European nowadays and we aren't we are English or British which ever term you wish to use. Britain is having it's identity stripped away. BTW that isn't a racist remark I made.

I get lost with what you are saying when you throw percentages at me because it doesn't indicate how many people.

Can I ask have you asked how many German people like the amount of migrants going into there country? I heard alot don't like it. This isn't meant to be a racist comment I am just asking about an issue that Germans currently have.


----------



## MollySmith

Good programme on BBC 1 - 
*The Big EU Reality Check*


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I have always classed myself as British. See this is what I personally don't like is that everyone classes themselves as European nowadays and we aren't we are English or British


As I said I am English or British. It's simply the same thing expanded another level. If asked I never answer european however I count myself as being a person from Europe.



> Can I ask have you asked how many German people like the amount of migrants going into there country? I heard alot don't like it. This isn't meant to be a racist comment I am just asking about an issue that Germans currently have.


No they don't like it. It has, like the UK contributed to the rise of the far right as well as organisations such as Pegida (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida). Situation is improving. However there is recognition that the problems of the middle east was caused in no small part from the actions of America and Europe. There is also recognition that in general, immigrants contribute more to society and economy than they take out. Finally there is the point that if Germany is to be taken seriously internationally, it cannot simply bury it's head in the sand when problems arise which need to be solved.

One of the core things however that this proves, the problems of the UK are not unique. Why not work together to solve problems? Stronger together isn't simply a meaningless phrase. Being in the EU isn't simply Me Me Me.


----------



## MilleD

stockwellcat said:


> I have lived abroad for 12 months and moved back to the UK in 1999 but never once did I refer to myself as English - British - European


I lived in Germany for 2 years and I didn't feel European. Maybe a little more cosmopolitan....


----------



## MilleD

diefenbaker said:


> Oh no. Am I going to lose my access to the Large Hadron Collider ?


I'm afraid you'll just have to leave it to someone else to create a black hole and destroy the universe.


----------



## Satori

diefenbaker said:


> Oh no. Am I going to lose my access to the Large Hadron Collider ?


Not particularly.


----------



## Goblin

About british people living in europe and not your normal "expats":





Last phrase I think the important one.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> . However there is recognition that the problems of the middle east was caused in no small part from the actions of America and Europe.


A revolt in Tunsia started the Arab spring , people fighting for democracy against tyranical despots and regimes.
We invaded Iraq and Afghanistan before this started , How did we start an Arab uprising?
As to Syria , their Civil War started in march 2011, the UK voted against UK military strike in 2013 .
The civil war has been going on for five years , how has the EU helped resolve this war ?
It is a world problem , and the world needs to solve it . The UK will help try to resolve it whether they are in the EU or not

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring
http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2011/mar/22/middle-east-protest-interactive-timeline

Sadly there are also many African refugees in Europe too.

http://www.unhcr.org/uk/
UNHCR Global Trends report finds 65.3 million people, or one person in 113, were displaced from their homes by conflict and persecution in 2015.

What a sad place the world is .


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> As I said I am English or British. It's simply the same thing expanded another level. If asked I never answer european however I count myself as being a person from Europe.
> 
> No they don't like it. It has, like the UK contributed to the rise of the far right as well as organisations such as Pegida (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida). Situation is improving. However there is recognition that the problems of the middle east was caused in no small part from the actions of America and Europe. There is also recognition that in general, immigrants contribute more to society and economy than they take out. Finally there is the point that if Germany is to be taken seriously internationally, it cannot simply bury it's head in the sand when problems arise which need to be solved.
> 
> One of the core things however that this proves, the problems of the UK are not unique. Why not work together to solve problems? Stronger together isn't simply a meaningless phrase. Being in the EU isn't simply Me Me Me.


I have read the opposite regarding migrants causing problems in Germany eg fighting, mugging people, rioting at times in cities in Germany because they don't get there way, and raping women in Cologne. I am happy to provide plenty of links to news articles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...oman-they-were-harassing-on-Munich-metro.html

http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...nd-german-law-were-just-following-afghan-law/

These incidents aren't just isolated to Germany many other countries including France, Greece, Turkey, Macedonia have had similar problems and in Holland they have been assaulting and giving abuse to border agency staff.

People have to remember Germany has alot more space than we do in the UK as it is a massive country and Europe is a continent. The UK is only a small island.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> So not the "befits the Open University" as you claim. Opinions with no detailed references. Able to recognise problems and misinformation in the first page I looked at.


 For those who want to read it , can you give us a clue as to what the problems and misinformation is so we know what to lookout for ?


----------



## Colliebarmy

tonights "benefits" tv show was interesting, they come here, get a 16 hour a week job and qualify for WFTC of £100s per week which buys them half a town back in Romania


----------



## Lurcherlad

Hmm...? Still out!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Corbyn says EU has to change dramatically.
http://news.sky.com/story/1714862/corbyn-eu-has-got-to-change-dramatically
Did he miss Cameron's excuse of renegotiations recently? I don't think they will accept the UK going you must change this, you must change that. That won't happen anytime soon.


----------



## MollySmith

Still staying in.


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> A revolt in Tunsia started the Arab spring , people fighting for democracy against tyranical despots and regimes.
> We invaded Iraq and Afghanistan before this started , How did we start an Arab uprising?


So you don't feel attacking some countries, then pulling out with no long term recovery option destabilizing not simply to that country but the region? You think what happens in one country does not have knock on effects in any others? Middle east was a powder keg with shiite, sunni and other divisions under the surface. Iran obviously a counterpoint to west dabbling where possible. We dabbled in the area lighting the fuse. We encouraged the idea of democracy and freedom yet had no support structures in place to help countries achieve it. Wonder how many of those people fighting against tyranical despots and regimes actually feel safer and more secure now? Not saying it's all our fault but we were a significant factor. Immigrants from war torn areas are from Iraq, Afganistan and Syria. Even if you want to dispute Syria, we can agree I think we had an impact on Iraq and Afganistan.



stockwellcat said:


> I have read the opposite regarding migrants causing problems in Germany eg in fighting, mugging people, rioting at times in cities


What opposite? It caused problems. Your reaction as a Brexit supporter isn't a shock however. Project fear. Yes there have been problems which have been plastered all over the media. Lessons are being learned and procedures put in place. Those who really are interested : http://www.thelocal.de/20160610/why-refugee-crime-numbers-have-plummeted



> My point is we don't want this over here. It has happened in many countries including Germany, France, Greece, Turkey, Macedonia and in Holland they have been assaulting and giving abuse to border agency staff.


So stick your head in the sand. Can imagine that attitude in the past, Germans invading France, let's ignore it, nothing to do with us. Britain used to be and should still be greater than that. From about 1 minute in, an outsiders view:








> People have to remember Germany has alot more space than we do in the UK as it is a massive country and Europe is a continent. The UK is only a small island.


You considering limiting population growth as you have no room? Overall immigrants increase the economy and pay more into the system than they take out so maybe you can use some of that to increase things like housing, schools and infrastructure which have been neglected by previous and current governments. Infrastructure requirements are the same. What about development of 66,000 hectares of brownfield sites located in England for new housing etc not just for immigrants but for the current population?

Of course immigrants is another red herring. Unless the after BREXIT those in power decide to cut all ties with the EU and use the WTO option, free movement is likely to be a requirement of any deal. What does that mean : https://next.ft.com/content/745d0ea2-222d-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So you don't feel attacking some countries, then pulling out with no long term recovery option destabilizing not simply to that country but the region? You think what happens in one country does not have knock on effects in any others? Middle east was a powder keg with shiite, sunni and other divisions under the surface. Iran obviously a counterpoint to west dabbling where possible. We dabbled in the area lighting the fuse. We encouraged the idea of democracy and freedom yet had no support structures in place to help countries achieve it. Wonder how many of those people fighting against tyranical despots and regimes actually feel safer and more secure now? Not saying it's all our fault but we were a significant factor. Immigrants from war torn areas are from Iraq, Afganistan and Syria. Even if you want to dispute Syria, we can agree I think we had an impact on Iraq and Afganistan.
> 
> What opposite? It caused problems. Your reaction as a Brexit supporter isn't a shock however. *Project fear*. Yes there have been problems which have been plastered all over the media. Lessons are being learned and procedures put in place. Those who really are interested : http://www.thelocal.de/20160610/why-refugee-crime-numbers-have-plummeted
> 
> So stick your head in the sand. Can imagine that attitude in the past, Germans invading France, let's ignore it, nothing to do with us. Britain used to be and should still be greater than that. From about 1 minute in, an outsiders view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You considering limiting population growth as you have no room? Overall immigrants increase the economy and pay more into the system than they take out so maybe you can use some of that to increase things like housing, schools and infrastructure which have been neglected by previous and current governments. Infrastructure requirements are the same. What about development of 66,000 hectares of brownfield sites located in England for new housing etc not just for immigrants but for the current population?
> 
> Of course immigrants is another red herring. Unless the after BREXIT those in power decide to cut all ties with the EU and use the WTO option, free movement is likely to be a requirement of any deal. What does that mean : https://next.ft.com/content/745d0ea2-222d-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d


Project fear is Cameron's side of the referendum, the stay campaign.

Being a Leave supporter has nothing to do with how I commented. I was commenting on what I have read over and over again.


----------



## Satori

Colliebarmy said:


> tonights "benefits" tv show was interesting, they come here, get a 16 hour a week job and qualify for WFTC of £100s per week which buys them half a town back in Romania


Yes, there's a common scam that Romanian / EE immigrants are advised to pursue so long as they have lots of kids....

Firstly, the father comes to the UK and stays on the settee of someone who has previously worked the system this way. This gives him an address so that he can sign on. He must sign on for three months and be in receipt of JSA.

After three months the wife and brood fly to the UK to join him.

Of course, they can't all stay with the 'friend' so they are homeless. And because he is classified as active for three months they qualify for a council house or other accommodation provided by the council in the private market. Speaking English is not necessary and may even be inadvisable because the translator at the housing department knows how to put their case without getting them classified as voluntarily international homeless.

Now they settle into their luxury accommodation, comparatively, and get a free ride in the UK... Bed, board, food, clothing, schooling, health etc. Actually looking for a job is not necessary so long as they maintain the pretence of looking. After all they wouldn't want to become part of the squeezed middle who work their arses off for a life that is relatively impoverished.

Now before the bleeding hearts lefties start whining about various 'isms, you can wind your necks back right now. See, I don't blame the immigrant Fathers who are doing this. They are just looking after their wives and children. I would do the same if my my family was poor or even borderline malnourished and someone showed me a way to go live in a tolerant, safe, comfortable country that is legally obliged to give me a free ride for the rest of their lives. It doesn't make it right though. Oh, and btw, 71000 came in last year with no jobs to go to; the highest on record.


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## Goblin

Whereas, unless you can support yourself in Germany, you aren't going to be eligible for benefits, a position confirmed by the European Court of Justice just this year. So, not a problem with the EU but one with the UK benefit system. Common problems across countries.


----------



## HollynSmudge

diefenbaker said:


> Oh no. Am I going to lose my access to the Large Hadron Collider ?


You think that's all science is? Without even going into how many things have been created due to what I assume you think of as 'scientists messing about' there are plenty of other things you should be able to understand.

What about huge advances in medical imaging, medicine, water treatment, internet speeds, road surfacing, everything you can think of is created with the use of science. If you want to get less funding for things such as cancer, dementia whatever research or research into speeding up computing, funding for research into anything really. Then fine lets leave the EU.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> So you don't feel attacking some countries, then pulling out with no long term recovery option destabilizing not simply to that country but the region? You think what happens in one country does not have knock on effects in any others?


Countries affect others so you cannot ignore the domino effect of each North African and Middle East country joining The Arab Spring uprising and how that would encourage other countries. I would say the uprising was significant.

These are the countries that were involved in the Arab Spring .
"By the end of February 2012, rulers had been forced from power in Tunisia,[83] Egypt,[84] Libya,[85] and Yemen;[86] civil uprisings had erupted in Bahrain[87] and Syria;[88] major protests had broken out in Algeria,[89] Iraq,[90] Jordan,[91] Kuwait,[92] Morocco,[93] and Sudan;[94] and minor protests had occurred in Mauritania,[95] Oman,[96] Saudi Arabia,[97] Djibouti,[98] Western Sahara,[99] and Palestine

The reasons for the uprisings are given in the link in my previous post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring#Pressures_from_within



> Middle east was a powder keg with shiite, sunni and other divisions under the surface. Iran obviously a counterpoint to west dabbling where possible. We dabbled in the area lighting the fuse. We encouraged the idea of democracy and freedom yet had no support structures in place to help countries achieve it.


The Middle East has a long complicated history , Afghan has been in near constant conflict , UK fought them for the Khybur pass in the 1800s, Civil war , Russian invasion . also Iran -Iraq war , Iraq's invasion of Kuwait leading to the (1st)Gulf War, Israel 6 day war , and as you say tribal divisions, groups such as Taliban and the Invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan , the tensions are always there.

There were reasons why the allies invaded those two countries ,( that we now know weren't justified) the main reason wasn't to liberate the people but once there we tried to ensure stability and freedom with little success.
I assume these are the countries you are referring to when you said "We encouraged the idea of democracy and freedom yet had no support structures in place to help countries achieve it?

As I said before, whatever the causes and whoever is to blame , , this is a world problem , leaving the EU wont stop the UK from joining others to help stop the Syria conflict.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Milliepoochie:

...immigrants are being used as scapegoat, & some of the things said [border] on racist -- it's depressing.

Voting "out" does not mean our borders will be 'shut', & what about all those Brits who (shock! horror!...) choose to live in other European countries? People seem to forget, it's a two-way flow of people all over the world & within the EU. 
As for Farrage on TV last night... well, I lasted about two minutes, listening to his gibberish - Life is too short to give him any air-time.

It's not as simple as voting out but continuing to see the perks from the trade agreements - as you say, we'll still pay into the EU / still must meet criteria, & (shock! horror!...) still allow free movement of people.

I'm so *sick of seeing all (these untrue, inaccurate, outright misstatements) on social media - mainly from the Leave campaign -* it's changed my (impression) of a few of my friends, (ppl) I actually thought were intelligent. 

/QUOTE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

QUOTE, MilleD:

So anyone with a differing opinion to you is thick? 

/QUOTE
.
.
Whoa! - that's not what was said at all - The writer said that friends of theirs, who have repeated / re-posted / apparently believe obvious rubbish, are less intelligent than they'd previously thought.
That's a far cry from claiming that "anyone who disagrees with me is stoopid".
.
.
.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

> "Goblin, post: 1064573389, member: 1280644"]Whereas, unless you can support yourself in Germany, you aren't going to be eligible for benefits, a position confirmed by the European Court of Justice just this year. So, not a problem with the EU but one with the UK benefit system.


Absolutely. Which with open borders with all EU countries may indeed have to change. It simply isn't sustainable. Just as I suspect that being the only country with a free at source National Health Service will have to change as well.

I see that Corbyn (who is so not a lover of the EU lol) was questioned on the sustainability of the NHS by some young voters.

Whichever way the county votes there are some changing times ahead ..........

J


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> . What about development of 66,000 hectares of brownfield sites located in England for new housing etc not just for immigrants but for the current population?


Well around here 125 hectares of green fields have just disappeared under housing, another 50 hectares are about to be built on and next year if we can't stop them and it looks as if we can't, 83 hectares of not only green fields but green belt land will be built on.

Where do you get your info,..........come look for yourself and work out what are lies. 
Easy for those who live in the city and never set foot outside their office world and have private this and that to look at figures and say things are ok.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Cameron warned 4 years ago that we can't tackle migration whilst in the EU. Well I wonder who has been telling us the general public big fat porkies then, Mr Cameron.

http://news.sky.com/story/1714970/cameron-warned-on-immigration-four-years-ago


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Where do you get your info,..........*come look for yourself and work out what are lies*.
> Easy for those who live in the city and never set foot outside their office world and have private this and that to look at figures and say things are ok.


Goblin doesn't live in UK see other comments on page 47.
Land around were my Dad lives in Lancashire is being swallowed up to building new homes and it's sad because it's lovely where my Dad lives, he is nowhere near brownfield sites.


----------



## havoc

_Land around were my Dad lives in Lancashire is being swallowed up to building new homes and it's sad because it's lovely where my Dad lives,_
Who owned that land and sold it for building?


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> _Land around were my Dad lives in Lancashire is being swallowed up to building new homes and it's sad because it's lovely where my Dad lives,_
> *Who owned that land and sold it for building?*


Sorry I don't know that information as I wasn't involved in the sale of the land nor was I in Lancashire when this happened. My dad told me what happened and it didn't matter how much opposition the locals put up.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> Land around were my Dad lives in Lancashire is being swallowed up to building new homes and it's sad because it's lovely where my Dad lives, he is nowhere near brownfield sites.


The same is happening in our area, and there is brownfield sites down in the village. I'm afraid developers don't want to build on brownfield sites. The reason being, it costs them a lot more money.


----------



## havoc

*Who owned that land and sold it for building?*
_Sorry I don't know that information_

The point is it was probably a local lined their pockets. There isn't some grey 'they' doing this, it's individuals making money. There's demand for housing and where there's demand someone will always supply.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Still voting IN


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Where do you get your info,..........come look for yourself and work out what are lies.


Source: http://www.sustainablebuild.co.uk/brownfieldsites.html

Although http://www.cpre.org.uk/what-we-do/h...ld-land-could-provide-up-to-one-million-homes also interesting.

There's a difference between actually having options available and using them. Money both in clearing land and potential "sale" value all come into play. That is not the EU's fault but developers and those who allow contruction on that location. You also have to look up what kind of housing is being built. Is it housing to make the developer the most money? As well brownfield sites why not take advantage of urban renewal ideas, build blocks of flats instead individual homes which take more space for considerable less people. All comes down to money and how much developers can make.


----------



## Honeys mum

EU tax bombshell to cost each household over £2,600 - Vote Leave


David Cameron repeatedly refused to answer basic questions on Turkey - Vote Leave


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## rona

havoc said:


> Who owned that land and sold it for building?


If they don't sell the councils are putting in for compulsory purchase by putting in a road plan in a lot of cases. 
I don't blame the land owners, either take a few million and move somewhere nice or hold out with the chance you'll lose your land for a pittance.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> EU tax bombshell to cost each household over £2,600 - Vote Leave


So no source of the original information. Wait, this is the leave website. The ones who know 350million for the NHS is a blatant lie and continue using it. Oh wait Gove said "We'll invesigate". So much for credible source of information.

Wait we then have Turkey. What a shame that is rubbish as well. Serves the fear campaign as well though doesn't it if people are gullible. Who cares if Cameron vetos Turkey joining or not. He will not be in power by then regardless. Turkey is nowhere near ready or fulfilling the requirements to join the EU. It will be years before they are, IF they are. Then we need to sort out a minor issue with a little island called Cyprus and the recognition of the Greek Government. If not, Greece will veto anyway. Recently Germany annoyed Turkey and relationships are strained. Germany recognised a massacre of amenians in 1916 by ottomans as a genecide. Already recognised by many countries as such. So let's see, Germany opposed, Austria opposed, Greece opposed, France is also opposed. Think the issue is moot at the moment, don't you.

Still think it shows how hypocritical the leave campaign are and the fact they do not actually believe what they say:





Oops.


----------



## Honeys mum

It seems we are not the only ones, saw this on a friends facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/5881621446...41829.588162144620217/731367350299695/?type=3


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Goblin said:


> build blocks of flats instead individual homes which take more space for considerable less people.


Yes, if we build upwards we can indeed fit more people in per square metre. Though I am not sure that's the point. I am a little skeptical though ...the build them high, pack 'em in was tried in the 60's and we've only just finished pulling most of the high rise down as they proved an unmitigated disaster. Apartments work well in cities ....but then they tend to be expensive.

J


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> That is not the EU's fault but developers and those who allow contruction on that location


No it's down to EU policy and government policy. The developers are just running a business they don't make the problem or the rules.



Goblin said:


> As well brownfield sites why not take advantage of urban renewal ideas, build blocks of flats instead individual homes which take more space for considerable less people.


This is also happening here. A very large brown field site has had a large building demolished and a variety of homes being built on that site, some flats.
I think the UK learnt from the 60s that large quantities of large blocks of flats are not a good idea.


----------



## emmaviolet

Honeys mum said:


> It seems we are not the only ones, saw this on a friends facebook page.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/5881621446...41829.588162144620217/731367350299695/?type=3


This is just some woman writing in, it doesn't actually mean the whole of Finland does want out, only that she does.


----------



## emmaviolet

Happy Paws said:


> Still voting IN


Me too, well I've already sent my postal vote, no changing my mind now, so I wish people would stop with propaganda posters everywhere for out, the more I see them, the more I firmly believe in 'In'.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> No it's down to EU policy and government policy. The developers are just running a business they don't make the problem or the rules.


So you want the EU to set rules on everything. Some people want "freedom" from the EU as the already impose too much apparantly.

I agree developers are running a business. However business should have moral responsibilities not simply financial responsibilities, frequently forgotten. The whole BREXIT campaign is being driven by people like Gove, Johnson, Ian Duncan Smith and Farage who all believe in unrestrained market forces free from silly rules like workers rights. Who cares about the environment if it makes money.


----------



## Goblin

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Yes, if we build upwards we can indeed fit more people in per square metre. Though I am not sure that's the point. I am a little skeptical though ...the build them high, pack 'em in was tried in the 60's and we've only just finished pulling most of the high rise down as they proved an unmitigated disaster. Apartments work well in cities ....but then they tend to be expensive.
> 
> J


Who said it needs to be that dense? There's plenty of room for middle ground. ( pun not intended )


----------



## havoc

As it happens there's plenty of room for new housing, problem is nobody wants it near them. Those who own houses want high demand and high prices because it makes them feel rich while those who need a house want prices kept down - until and unless they get to buy one and then they're straight into nimbyism.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> So you want the EU to set rules on everything. Some people want "freedom" from the EU as the already impose too much apparantly.
> 
> I agree developers are running a business. However business should have moral responsibilities not simply financial responsibilities, frequently forgotten. The whole BREXIT campaign is being driven by people like Gove, Johnson, Ian Duncan Smith and Farage who all believe in unrestrained market forces free from silly rules like workers rights. Who cares about the environment if it makes money.


What!!!

Our local government have been told, as have all others, what housing they have to build and if they don't come up with a plan then the government will tell them where to build. All this with no need to consider services or infrastructure 
There are none/tiny brown field sites left around here and most of them are being built on. 
What has caused this problem, could it be the extra 300,000 making their way here every year?
Again, I don't blame the immigrants, they are doing the best they can by their families. I blame the institution that allowed this stupid situation to occur in the first place. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could have foreseen this happening


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> As it happens there's plenty of room for new housing, problem is nobody wants it near them. Those who own houses want high demand and high prices because it makes them feel rich while those who need a house want prices kept down - until and unless they get to buy one and then they're straight into nimbyism.


If the infrastructure went with it, then there wouldn't be such a problem. Our hospitals were at full stretch anyway, it's a huge area they cover and all villages and towns are increasing population by about 5%.
The schools are losing their playing fields.

I don't give a toss about house prices etc. I care about loss of natural habitat and care of our sick


----------



## havoc

You don't care about house prices, as it happens neither do I but most homeowners do. It doesn't seem to cross their minds it's about needing somewhere to live - only that they paid £x for their house and it's now worth £x+y. It isn't money in their pocket but they feel as though it is.

As to immigrants - well I do understand the frustration when one is seen to get a council house but they rarely do get to choose where. I live in an area with a high Eastern European population and I don't think there are many in HA properties. Maybe this area just happens to attract those with an independent mindset. It's far more likely they live in HMOs.


----------



## Honeys mum

emmaviolet said:


> This is just some woman writing in, it doesn't actually mean the whole of Finland does want out, only that she does.


No one is saying they do emmaviolet, but perhaps you should read the comments made by others .


----------



## MilleD

Goblin said:


> What opposite? It caused problems. Your reaction as a Brexit supporter isn't a shock however. Project fear. Yes there have been problems which have been plastered all over the media. Lessons are being learned and procedures put in place. Those who really are interested : http://www.thelocal.de/20160610/why-refugee-crime-numbers-have-plummeted


So the 'procedure' is to deport the refugees committing the crimes and surprise! the crime rate has fallen. That's hardly a success story.


----------



## Bisbow

A French lady living near me says we should be more like them and only apply the rules the EU set if it benefits us, the French do it all the time.
I think she is right, just look at the immigrant camps at Calais, the French don't want them so they let them stay in the hope we will take them.


----------



## MilleD

Bisbow said:


> A French lady living near me says we should be more like them and only apply the rules the EU set if it benefits us, the French do it all the time.


Like the Spanish police I saw smoking in a restaurant last time I was there (in Feb)?


----------



## emmaviolet

Honeys mum said:


> No one is saying they do emmaviolet, but perhaps you should read the comments made by others .


I did, it was a handful of people with an agenda, it's not spread to everyone in the country, not the people who want to remain, it's typical of that shared by those with the same agenda.

ETA, yes you did say that was the opinion of the country, you used it as an example to say other countries wanted out, when it was one woman writing in to the sun, I believe.


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat said:


> Corbyn says EU has to change dramatically.
> http://news.sky.com/story/1714862/corbyn-eu-has-got-to-change-dramatically
> Did he miss Cameron's excuse of renegotiations recently? I don't think they will accept the UK going you must change this, you must change that. That won't happen anytime soon.


What a terrifying thought, Corbyn going to fight for us. Will he be taking his instructions from Twitter, as he did on his first PMQs? Such a weak, weak man, definitely not PM material.


----------



## MollySmith

David Beckham is the remain camp. Well that's the only persuasion you all need... 

Honestly, I'm astounded that this is worth anything.


----------



## MoggyBaby

havoc said:


> As it happens there's plenty of room for new housing, problem is nobody wants it near them. Those who own houses want high demand and high prices because it makes them feel rich while those who need a house want prices kept down - until and unless they get to buy one and then they're straight into nimbyism.


What a load of codswallop!!! The town I live in has almost doubled in size since I moved there 13 years ago and still they keep building there!! But there are no extra roads to cope with the traffic. There are still only 2 exits from the main dual carriageway which means it is taking longer & longer to get anywhere and it is also beginning to back up on the dual carriageway itself, thus causing major problems for other traffic! We have just found out they are building another 2500 homes on the lovely green fields alongside the canal. Where is all that nature going to go?

I moved there because it was close to open fields and still had a nice rural feel to it. Not anymore! I rarely hear English being spoken when I go into the town, there are more and more shops opening up with signage in foreign languages and houses are being built on every available bit of space - green or otherwise. In 13 years, the town and vicinity has changed practically beyond recognition.

This is nothing to do with house prices and NIMBY'ism - it's about losing the very reasons we chose to live in the areas we live in.


----------



## kimthecat

I wonder if Leave does wins whether there will be demonstrations like after the last election when the Tories won.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> . You also have to look up what kind of housing is being built. Is it housing to make the developer the most money? As well brownfield sites why not take advantage of urban renewal ideas, build blocks of flats instead individual homes which take more space for considerable less people. All comes down to money and how much developers can make.


Towns are filled with blocks of flats, hardly a new idea . But yes, we will have to do that . 
I would think all housing is designed to make the most money , also the cost of building land is tremendous
In our area, most new builds are blocks , they fill the sky line and dwarf the other houses 
The blocks here are for sale but some are let to council, tennents , that is the condition planning was/is allowed, a percentage of flats must be for those on the housing list . I feel sorry for the children having to live in cooped up in flats and not having garden to run around in.


----------



## MoggyBaby

kimthecat said:


> I wonder if Leave does wins whether there will be demonstrations like after the last election when the Tories won.


Or vice versa....


----------



## kimthecat

@MoggyBaby lets hope not. I personally will except whatever the outcome is .


----------



## havoc

I only hope a leave vote isn't seen by extremists as a mandate for nasty behaviour.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Towns are filled with blocks of flats, hardly a new idea . But yes, we will have to do that .
> I would think all housing is designed to make the most money , also the cost of building land is tremendous
> In our area, most new builds are blocks , they fill the sky line and dwarf the other houses
> The blocks here are for sale but some are let to council, tennents , that is the condition planning was/is allowed, a percentage of flats must be for those on the housing list . I feel sorry for the children having to live in cooped up in flats and not having garden to run around in.


The trouble with flats is that the infrastructure is rarely upgraded to cope. So the schools and hospitals can't take the extra people and any road system turns into a car park at busy times.


----------



## kimthecat

MiffyMoo said:


> What a terrifying thought, Corbyn going to fight for us. Will he be taking his instructions from Twitter, as he did on his first PMQs? Such a weak, weak man, definitely not PM material.


I have said this before that he is not PM material , John mcDonald would have been a better choice.
Being principled isnt enough because politics is a dirty business, he isnt even PM yet but he has compromised , His heart isnt in Europe and he's backing stay to please his party . He is a genuine man He would be better off being free from the pressure of being PM .

@MilleD I believe in the south east , there will be a problem with supplying water if l large amounts of new builds are built here . There was a programme about it but unfortunately cant remember what it was called. .


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> @MoggyBaby I personally will except whatever the outcome is .


We'll have no choice what's it's done is done, there'll no way back.


----------



## havoc

_Being principled isnt enough because politics is a dirty business, he isnt even PM yet but he has compromised , *His heart isnt in Europe* and he's backing stay to please his party . He is a genuine man He would be better off being free from the pressure of being PM ._
That's interesting. I've gained the impression it is though maybe not on the issues in the foreground.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> _Being principled isnt enough because politics is a dirty business, he isnt even PM yet but he has compromised , *His heart isnt in Europe* and he's backing stay to please his party . He is a genuine man He would be better off being free from the pressure of being PM ._
> That's interesting. I've gained the impression it is though maybe not on the issues in the foreground.


He was pro exit until 6 months ago


----------



## havoc

Fair enough. It's just the comments he's made on aspects which interest me make me think he understands the implications.


----------



## Colliebarmy

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/20/cant-lesbian-gay-britain-leaves-eu-corbyn-suggests/


----------



## MiffyMoo

Colliebarmy said:


> http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/20/cant-lesbian-gay-britain-leaves-eu-corbyn-suggests/


I'm always very wary of Breitbart, and that was a shoddy article. An attention grabbing headline, wishy washy first paragraph, to tie into the headline, with not substantiation and then promptly moved onto immigration


----------



## havoc

Maybe Corbyn wanted to comment on the things he cares about before moving on to immigration.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> Maybe Corbyn wanted to comment on the things he cares about before moving on to immigration.


I doubt very much he would state the the UK will ditch all human rights the second we're out of the EU. If that's what he was hinting at, then he is as guilty of fearmongering as Cameron is.


----------



## MilleD

MiffyMoo said:


> I doubt very much he would state the the UK will ditch all human rights the second we're out of the EU. If that's what he was hinting at, then he is as guilty of fearmongering as Cameron is.


According to that article, he said no-one will be allowed to be gay OR straight


----------



## kimthecat

Tony Benn would have voted Leave, 
http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/tony-benn-on-britain-and-eu.html

"It is mystifying to me why so many people on the left in Britain are so bent on defending the EU and keeping Britain in it.

It is, first of all, a simple matter of democracy: why give up your sovereignty and democratic power to the EU and give away the power to change government policy on many substantive issues, when the EU is so clearly anti-democratic?

Secondly, the EU is a neoliberal train wreck: it was designed on economically conservative ideas and the worst neoclassical economics. It was designed to be a monetary union without a powerful central fiscal authority: an unworkable and disastrous idea. The Eurozone has led to catastrophe on the fringes of Europe in Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal and Baltic states. In the larger states like Germany and France the situation is somewhat better, but hardly anything to boast of.

."


----------



## MiffyMoo

MilleD said:


> According to that article, he said no-one will be allowed to be gay OR straight


Just such a load of b******s


----------



## Arnie83

MollySmith said:


> David Beckham is the remain camp. Well that's the only persuasion you all need...
> 
> Honestly, I'm astounded that this is worth anything.


Referendum Like Beckham !


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, KimTheCat:

We're a pet forum, but [there hasn't been] much discussion *about pets & livestock*, & how they benefit from EU rules.

/QUOTE

.
.
Actually, many posted about improved animal welfare in the UK under EU laws, which are fairly strict regarding humane care - not only EU livestock standards, i-e, rearing, husbandry, transport, slaughter, etc, but also re pets - everyday care, keeping, handling, & so on.
.
In particular, posters have repeatedly worried whether exiting the EU might mean being unable to stop live-shipment of UK cattle or other species to EU or non-EU countries for slaughter under inhumane conditions, an issue of increasing concern over the past 10-years. The popular momentum to halt live-stock shipment has been growing, & the political will to make it happen should reach a tipping point, soon.
.
.
.


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> I only hope a leave vote isn't seen by extremists as a mandate for nasty behaviour.


I think we all hope that



kimthecat said:


> I believe in the south east , there will be a problem with supplying water if l large amounts of new builds are built here . There was a programme about it but unfortunately cant remember what it was called. .


Also where is all that waste water going to be processed


----------



## MilleD

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> Actually, many posted about improved animal welfare in the UK under EU laws, which are fairly strict regarding humane care - not only EU livestock standards, i-e, rearing, husbandry, transport, slaughter, etc, but also re pets - everyday care, keeping, handling, & so on.
> .
> 
> .


Conditions for rearing veal (something I would never eat) are better in the UK than the EU law stipulates they should be. So I see no benefit from the EU in that.

The majority of the populace wouldn't accept a backward step over animal husbandry, and I doubt any political party would risk it if we exited.


----------



## kimthecat

[QUOTE="leashedForLife, post: 1064573774, member: 29929

In particular, posters have repeatedly worried whether exiting the EU might mean being unable to stop live-shipment of UK cattle or other species to EU or non-EU countries for slaughter under inhumane conditions, an issue of increasing concern over the past 10-years. The popular momentum to halt live-stock shipment has been growing, & the political will to make it happen should reach a tipping point, soon.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry i have must have missed some of the posts.

The French are allowed to force feed geese for foie gras (gavage) and I think Spain are too. When new rules were bought in , the countries already doing this were exempted.

We are unable to stop the live shipments to EU or non EU countries now. Campaigns to stop this started in the 1970s . I remember campaigning against it .
I dont think the EU rules we have now are adequate or perhaps are being disregarded

http://www.ihwt.ie/site2/welfare-campaigns/stop-live-horse-slaughter-2/

"Every year 65,000 horses are transported in horrific conditions across Europe for the purpose of slaughter. The terrible conditions endured during these long journeys often mean that horses travel for long periods of time without rest, food or water, suffer from disease, dehydration, exhaustion and injury. These journeys are not only inhumane but are totally unnecessary. The infrastructure already exists to make slaughter at source and a carcass only trade possible.

One slaughter route through Europe that has been identified by the U.K. charity, World Horse Welfare, passes 180 licensed horse slaughter yards before reaching its final destination. Horses should be slaughtered as close to the point of origin as possible and transported as meat, not forced to endure days of suffering. It also makes better economic sense to have horses slaughtered in their country of origin. "

http://www.equinerescuefrance.org/2011/09/export-and-import-of-horses-to-slaughter/

We have been asked about the traffic of horses to slaughter between the UK and Mainland Europe, so I have drafted this to try and help raise awareness of how the trading of horses destined for the dinner plate works.

At ERF, we are fully aware that despite public statements to the contrary from various official bodies, horses are still exported live from the UK to France. There are many myths put about to try and deflect from this, so this blog is to try and dispel them.

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/4037267/Export_of_live_animals_from_eu_to_noneu_countries.pdf

Warning upsetting photos on that link .

ThE EU Exports around 3 million live animals a
year To non-EU Countries.

Over 800,000 cattle and sheep are exported
annually from the EU to Turkey.

Around 80,000 EU cattle a year are sent on
lengthy journeys to the Lebanon, mainly from
France and Spain.

France also exports over 40,000 cattle a year
to Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco.

Lithuania and Hungary export around 45,000
cattle a year to Israel.

Ireland ships over 2,000 cattle a year to
Morocco and in 2013 has started exporting
cattle to Libya. Ireland plans to also send
cattle to Egypt and Lebanon.

In 2012, the EU sent over 800,000 sheep
to Libya, mainly from Romania and Spain.

Over 500,000 pigs are sent each year
from the EU to Russia, some all the
way from Denmark and Germany.

Germany exports over 100,000 pigs
annually to Ukraine and Moldova.


----------



## havoc

_I doubt very much he would state the the UK will ditch all human rights the second we're out of the EU. _

He knows it opens the door for it to happen bit by little bit though. Doesn't mean it will, just that it could and you wouldn't even know it was happening. I too doubt that the UK would suddenly go backwards on gay and lesbian rights. More likely it will quietly become illegal to report on matters using anti-terrorism laws - or make new ones. We wouldn't know the full story on Thalidomide if the Sunday Times hadn't gone to the ECHR. It's big business which gets protected on a national basis, not the individual.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> Conditions for rearing veal (something I would never eat) are better in the UK than the EU law stipulates they should be. So I see no benefit from the EU in that.
> 
> The majority of the populace wouldn't accept a backward step over animal husbandry, and I doubt any political party would risk it if we exited.


 Yes, Our standards for veal.

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/farm-animals/cows/veal-calves/are better than the EU .

Calves reared to UK standard are provided with bedding and younger calves receive double the amount of fibrous food compared to continental veal calves. Older UK calves have greater space allowance than stipulated in EU law. Their diet must provide a minimum amount of iron equal to the EU minimum.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> _I doubt very much he would state the the UK will ditch all human rights the second we're out of the EU. _
> 
> He knows it opens the door for it to happen bit by little bit though. Doesn't mean it will, just that it could and you wouldn't even know it was happening. I too doubt that the UK would suddenly go backwards on gay and lesbian rights. *More likely it will quietly become illegal to report on matters using anti-terrorism laws - or make new ones. *We wouldn't know the full story on Thalidomide if the Sunday Times hadn't gone to the ECHR. It's big business which gets protected on a national basis, not the individual.


This is all conjecture and scaremongering - again!

Going back to LGBT rights - only 13 countries in Europe recognise same sex marriage, Britain being one of them, so that clearly was not an EU directive, it came directly from us, and there is absolutely no proof or reason why we would suddenly hit reverse. This is a progressive society with a fully operational, democratic parliament - the suggestion that we will suddenly plunge into the dark ages just because we leave the EU is laughable


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, MilleD:

(standards) for *rearing veal (calves)*, a meat I'd never eat, *are better under UK law than EU law..*. So I see no benefit from the EU in that.

The majority of the [UK] populace wouldn't accept a backward step in animal husbandry, and I doubt any political party would risk [lower animal-welfare standards] if we left the EU.

/QUOTE
.
.
Veal is only a tiny segment of the larger beef / dairy market, dairy is enormous in terms of the # of animals kept, & beef is a huge market when compared to a specialty item like veal.
.
*Edited to correct my error:*
If UK animal-welfare laws **require better husbandry than the EU, not only for veal calves, but for all livestock species**, I'll be astonished - & thrilled! - to hear it.
.
I have a hunch that a few other species / ages of animals, aside from he already well-cared-for veal calves, positively benefit from EU standards of practice. Laying hens? Broiler chicks? Meat rabbits? Sows awaiting or nursing piglets? Farmed fish?
.
The problem with veal is that farmers want larger / older calves, who produce more yield - actual meat, to be sold - in relation to carcass weight. If they literally slaughtered calves who were very young, inherently tender, & free-nursing on their dams, they'd get very little meat per calf - but they'd also produce very little suffering. That was traditional, old-fashioned "veal calves".
.
Then modern marketing arrived, & farmers were told, _'Maximize Ur yield! - every veal-calf is a potential gold-mine, grow 'em *bigger*, get double or even triple the yield per carcass!...'_
 The problem with "grow 'em bigger" is that keeping veal-calves on a liquid diet well-past the age when they'd normally be weaned is innately cruel; the calves' growing bodies demand more nutrition & desperately need IRON for their larger blood-volume & bigger bodies, with more muscle-tissue, plus more calcium to lay down bone in their growing skeletons, etc.
They can't get that on a diet of milk-replacer delivered in buckets.
.
It was common in my youth to see anemic older veal-calves, licking urgently at empty buckets, sidewalls on water tanks, exposed pipes or pipe-fences, protruding nails, or any other potential source of IRON, because their deprived bodies craved it so. They'd nurse on the buckles of galoshes, suck at belt-buckles, & so on, if U entered their pens. Their near-white tongues were an instant telltale to their raging anemia.
.
From the time i was 5-YO until i was in college, the local dairy-farmer we bought our [raw] milk from, providing our own jugs & decanting it from the bulk tank ourselves, raised veal - but his veal calves were penned beside their mums & nursed between milkings, plus before Mum was milked, & he slaughtered them young.
This meant low-yield but very high-quality meat, & no anemia for the babies. He also ran his hogs on pasture, & his young beef [steers, excess males from the dairy operation] were grass-fed & grass-finished, slaughtered at 2-YO. I could drop by the pasture anytime when I went to get milk & see "our" hog or steer, out in the field - unless the weather was so soggy their hooves would cut up the turf. On those days, they were penned indoors, & fed hay, ensilage, & for the hogs, kitchen waste & leftover colostrum.
Every year, we bought a half-steer or half-hog, alternating beef & pork, cut to our preferences & packed in usable portions, to go in the family chest-freezer. That was the majority of our meat for the year, including sausage, chops / steaks / ribs for BBQ, ground meat, fresh hams, & so on. We'd buy chicken & turkey at the grocery store, as needed. We usually had a venison from fall hunting in the freezer as well, shot on our own land.
Being able to see how our steer or hog was kept was a huge incentive to buy from that dairyman, simply because we knew how well they were cared for. They didn't live -long- lives, but they lived very well.
We didn't buy veal at all, at the store or from the farm, it was too pricey; but at least his calves lived alongside their mamas, & didn't nearly knock U flat if U went near them, snuffling for any trace of iron like addicts looking for spilled dope.
.
I suspect if U look at such details as gestation crates, for sows, & the minimum space per laying hen, or the requirement for X-inches of litter as bedding underfoot in a rearing house for broiler chicks, there might be other EU animal-welfare benefits.
.
What does it say about foie-gras / forced feedings of ducks or geese? --- What about the use of captive bolts to stun livestock?
How much space must be allocated per pound of fish in farmed fish, & how much filtration is required - to keep the water clean, bacteria low, & reduce injuries? How is livestock waste, including the muck from drained fish-ponds & accumulated bunny-droppings, to be removed, safely contained, processed & used --- as compost / fertilizer / in irrigation?
.
The byproducts & side-effects of livestock-Ag include manures, runoff of urine, erosion, rain runoff contaminated by herbicides / pesticides / fungicides / fertilizers, hardpan in fields from heavy machinery & repeated traffic [ends of rows, where the plow / sprayer / combine, etc, turn], overflow from manure ponds or seepage from manure tanks, etc. All these secondary & tertiary effects must be dealt with, too, for human safety & to limit environmental degradation.
.
I would hope the EU has a plan already in use to limit antibiotic use in livestock of all species, including farmed fish & shellfish?
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
A sincerely appreciative _~Thank You~ _to KimTheCat, for the comprehensive stats on live-shipping of various livestock species within & beyond the EU by EU members. Please enjoy a virtual bouquet of thanks...










Obviously, there is much work to be done on this issue alone - but there is great hope, too.
I also hope that foie-gras, at least the force-fed version, is soon as extinct as the Triceratops.
.
.
.


----------



## MilleD

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, MilleD:
> 
> (standards) for *rearing veal (calves)*, a meat I'd never eat, *are better under UK law than EU law..*. So I see no benefit from the EU in that.
> 
> The majority of the [UK] populace wouldn't accept a backward step in animal husbandry, and I doubt any political party would risk [lower animal-welfare standards] if we left the EU.
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> Veal is only a tiny segment of the larger beef / dairy market, dairy is enormous in terms of the # of animals kept, & beef is a huge market when compared to a specialty item like veal.
> If the sole improvement in UK animal-welfare under EU law is better husbandry for veal calves, I'll be astonished to hear it.
> I have a hunch there are a few other species / ages of animals, who benefit from EU standards of practice. Laying hens? Broiler chicks? Meat rabbits? Sows awaiting or nursing piglets? Farmed fish?
> .
> The problem with veal is that farmers want larger / older calves, who produce more yield - actual meat, to be sold - in relation to carcass weight. If they literally slaughtered calves who were very young, inherently tender, & free-nursing on their dams, they'd get very little meat per calf - but they'd also produce very little suffering. That was traditional, old-fashioned "veal calves".
> .
> Then modern marketing arrived, & farmers were told, _'Maximize Ur yield! - every veal-calf is a potential gold-mine, grow 'em *bigger*, get double or even triple the yield per carcass!...'_
> The problem with "grow 'em bigger" is that keeping veal-calves on a liquid diet well-past the age when they'd normally be weaned is innately cruel; the calves' growing bodies demand more nutrition & desperately need IRON for their larger blood-volume & bigger bodies, with more muscle-tissue, plus more calcium to lay down bone in their growing skeletons, etc.
> They can't get that on a diet of milk-replacer delivered in buckets.
> .
> It was common in my youth to see anemic older veal-calves, licking urgently at empty buckets, sidewalls on water tanks, exposed pipes or pipe-fences, protruding nails, or any other potential source of IRON, because their deprived bodies craved it so. They'd nurse on the buckles of galoshes, suck at belt-buckles, & so on, if U entered their pens. Their near-white tongues were an instant telltale to their raging anemia.
> .
> From the time i was 5-YO until i was in college, the local dairy-farmer we bought our [raw] milk from, providing our own jugs & decanting it from the bulk tank ourselves, raised veal - but his veal calves were penned beside their mums & nursed between milkings, plus before Mum was milked, & he slaughtered them young.
> This meant low-yield but very high-quality meat, & no anemia for the babies. He also ran his hogs on pasture, & his young beef [steers, excess males from the dairy operation] were grass-fed & grass-finished, slaughtered at 2-YO. I could drop by the pasture anytime when I went to get milk & see "our" hog or steer, out in the field - unless the weather was so soggy their hooves would cut up the turf. On those days, they were penned indoors, & fed hay, ensilage, & for the hogs, kitchen waste & leftover colostrum.
> Every year, we bought a half-steer or half-hog, alternating beef & pork, cut to our preferences & packed in usable portions, to go in the family chest-freezer. That was the majority of our meat for the year, including sausage, chops / steaks / ribs for BBQ, ground meat, fresh hams, & so on. We'd buy chicken & turkey at the grocery store, as needed. We usually had a venison from fall hunting in the freezer as well, shot on our own land.
> Being able to see how our steer or hog was kept was a huge incentive to buy from that dairyman, simply because we knew how well they were cared for. They didn't live -long- lives, but they lived very well.
> We didn't buy veal at all, at the store or from the farm, it was too pricey; but at least his calves lived alongside their mamas, & didn't nearly knock U flat if U went near them, snuffling for any trace of iron like addicts looking for spilled dope.
> .
> I suspect if U look at such details as gestation crates, for sows, & the minimum space per laying hen, or the requirement for X-inches of litter as bedding underfoot in a rearing house for broiler chicks, there might be more EU animal-welfare benefits than "just for veal calves".
> .
> What does it say about foie-gras / forced feedings of ducks or geese? --- What about the use of captive bolts to stun livestock?
> How much space must be allocated per pound of fish in farmed fish, & how much filtration is required - to keep the water clean, bacteria low, & reduce injuries? How is livestock waste, including the muck from drained fish-ponds & accumulated bunny-droppings, to be removed, safely contained, processed & used --- as compost / fertilizer / in irrigation?
> .
> The byproducts & side-effects of livestock-Ag include manures, runoff of urine, erosion, rain runoff contaminated by herbicides / pesticides / fungicides / fertilizers, hardpan in fields from heavy machinery & repeated traffic [ends of rows, where the plow / sprayer / combine, etc, turn], overflow from manure ponds or seepage from manure tanks, etc. All these secondary & tertiary effects must be dealt with, too, for human safety & to limit environmental degradation.
> .
> I would hope the EU has a plan already in use to limit antibiotic use in livestock of all species, including farmed fish & shellfish?
> .
> .
> .


Please don't put words in my 'quotes' that I didn't type. And please stop misquoting by exclusion of words I did. At no point did I say veal conditions were the only thing the EU had improved, I actually said the EU hasn't affected veal conditions because in the UK we are better than EU law stipulates.


----------



## porps

kimthecat said:


> Tony Benn would have voted Leave,
> http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/tony-benn-on-britain-and-eu.html
> 
> "It is mystifying to me why so many people on the left in Britain are so bent on defending the EU and keeping Britain in it.
> 
> It is, first of all, a simple matter of democracy: why give up your sovereignty and democratic power to the EU and give away the power to change government policy on many substantive issues, when the EU is so clearly anti-democratic?
> ."


Democracy? Last election the right wing liberals jumped in bed with the right wing tories in order to form an extremely right wing government. The losers were a right wing labour party and a right wing racist party in UKIP. Oh and we had the greens if you fancied throwing your vote away on something with zero chance or success...That democracy? I'd be happy to give up that kind of illusion, if that were in fact what was happening. But in fact, even in the EU, you'll get to hold onto your illusion of having a choice of government and a say on government policy., though it is still of course an illusion.


----------



## MiffyMoo

porps said:


> Democracy? Last election the right wing liberals jumped in bed with the right wing tories in order to form an extremely right wing government. The losers were a right wing labour party and a right wing racist party in UKIP. Oh and we had the greens if you fancied throwing your vote away on something with zero chance or success...That democracy? I'd be happy to give up that kind of illusion, if that were in fact what was happening. But in fact, even in the EU, you'll get to hold onto your illusion of having a choice of government and a say on government policy., though it is still of course an illusion.


Our voting practice won't change, whether we're in or out


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, MilleD:

Please don't put words in my 'quotes' that I didn't type.

/QUOTE
.
.
I'm sorry that U are so upset by it, but i inserted the word CALVES because not everyone knows veal "comes from" calves, just as not everyone knows pork = pig, & beef = cow, bull, or steer. That U know it, & i know it, doesn't mean everyone else does - & i thought it was kinda important to acknowledge what specific animal 'becomes' this particular meat, whose name has no relation to the species' name, just as mutton has no connection to sheep, other than custom.
.
.
QUOTE, MilleD:

... At no point did I say veal conditions were the only thing the EU had improved,
I actually said the *EU hasn't affected veal (calves) conditions*, because... UK (standards) are better than EU law stipulates.

/QUOTE
.
.
U are absolutely right, I will immediately go back & correct my comment, & i sincerely apologize.
 I was wrong.
.
OTOH, a correction of my own:
veal - since it is unfeeling, insensate hunks of meat - does not experience "conditions", i-e, bodily or mental or emotional needs & wants, that must be met; veal _*calves*, _or indeed any calf, does - calves can be hungry, thirsty, hot or cold, lonely, bored, frightened, etc.
Veal calves require care, & thus minimum care standards; 'veal', the meat, requires only consistent, safe chilling temperatures & sanitary butchering / wrapping, followed by safe cooking, handling, & serve or store. Safe handling of raw veal is no different from any other meat - chill, wrap, refrigerate / freeze, same-same.
But living, a calf is not a chicken, pig, or sheep - they each have specific needs, which differ from other species', & we must provide for them appropriately. So we have standards for keeping / caring for veal calves - who aren't cared for the same way that dairy or beef calves are; we don't have care standards for "veal", which the calves only become after they're slaughtered.
.
.
.


----------



## porps

MiffyMoo said:


> Our voting practice won't change, whether we're in or out


Precisely the point i was making.


----------



## MilleD

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, MilleD:
> 
> Please don't put words in my 'quotes' that I didn't type.
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> I'm sorry that U are so upset by it, but i inserted the word CALVES because not everyone knows veal "comes from" calves, just as not everyone knows pork = pig, & beef = cow, bull, or steer. That U know it, & i know it, doesn't mean everyone else does - & i thought it was kinda important to acknowledge what specific animal 'becomes' this particular meat, whose name has no relation to the species' name, just as mutton has no connection to sheep, other than custom.
> .
> .
> QUOTE, MilleD:
> 
> ... At no point did I say veal conditions were the only thing the EU had improved,
> I actually said the *EU hasn't affected veal (calves) conditions*, because... UK (standards) are better than EU law stipulates.
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> U are absolutely right, I will immediately go back & correct my comment, & i sincerely apologize.
> I was wrong.
> .
> OTOH, a correction of my own:
> veal - since it is unfeeling, insensate hunks of meat - does not experience "conditions", i-e, bodily or mental or emotional needs & wants, that must be met; veal _*calves*, _or indeed any calf, does - calves can be hungry, thirsty, hot or cold, lonely, bored, frightened, etc.
> Veal calves require care, & thus minimum care standards; 'veal', the meat, requires only consistent, safe chilling temperatures & sanitary butchering / wrapping, followed by safe cooking, handling, & serve or store. Safe handling of raw veal is no different from any other meat - chill, wrap, refrigerate / freeze, same-same.
> But living, a calf is not a chicken, pig, or sheep - they each have specific needs, which differ from other species', & we must provide for them appropriately. So we have standards for keeping / caring for veal calves - who aren't cared for the same way that dairy or beef calves are; we don't have care standards for "veal", which the calves only become after they're slaughtered.
> .
> .
> .


It wasn't the word 'calves' that I object to.

You changed (amongst other things): Conditions for rearing veal (something I would never eat) are better in the UK than the EU law stipulates they should be

To: (standards) for rearing veal (calves), a meat I'd never eat, are better under UK law than EU law

Which is quite different . I was making the point that EU law wasn't driving the levels of conditions (or standards as you put).

Anyhow, not that upset just don't think it should be done. The rest is semantics.

Apology accepted.


----------



## havoc

_This is all conjecture and scaremongering - again!_
It is a perfectly valid concern based on how the UK was prior to us having somewhere to turn when we need it. It is a valid concern based on the attempts made since to curtail our freedom and privacy, usually in the name of 'security' but often mis-used.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> _This is all conjecture and scaremongering - again!_
> It is a perfectly valid concern based on how the UK was prior to us having somewhere to turn when we need it. It is a valid concern based on the attempts made since to curtail our freedom and privacy, usually in the name of 'security' but often mis-used.


Such as?


----------



## havoc

Well I gave the example of Thalidomide and how journalists were not allowed to report the full facts until they could go to the ECHR. On mis-use of laws - how about the elderly heckler who was removed from a party conference by police using ant-terrorism legislation. It isn't the obvious 'big' things like gay rights which worry me, it's that it will take very little for us to return to the days when everything was secret unless it was deemed we should be allowed to know. That's the way the UK worked and there was nowhere we could question it. When a farmer near me sprayed his crops one summer's day those of us who had washing out ended up with terrible skin problems. When the local GP tried to find out what was in the spray he couldn't because 'it was secret'.


----------



## diefenbaker

HollynSmudge said:


> You think that's all science is? Without even going into how many things have been created due to what I assume you think of as 'scientists messing about' there are plenty of other things you should be able to understand.
> 
> What about huge advances in medical imaging, medicine, water treatment, internet speeds, road surfacing, everything you can think of is created with the use of science. If you want to get less funding for things such as cancer, dementia whatever research or research into speeding up computing, funding for research into anything really. Then fine lets leave the EU.


Another one who could start a fight in a room on their own. There's only one thing for it....


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> W. On mis-use of laws - how about the elderly heckler who was removed from a party conference by police using ant-terrorism legislation. t'.


The one heckling Jack Straw about Iraq? I think he was removed by stewards . Disgraceful !


----------



## MollySmith

Can I ask about the abstainers? Why? Genuinely nosey.


----------



## havoc

_The one heckling Jack Straw about Iraq? I thinkhe was removed by stewards . Disgraceful !_

He was removed by stewards and then held by police
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Straw-a-liar-is-held-under-terrorist-law.html

That it happened was bad enough but at least nobody could stop it being reported, that's where my real concern lies.


----------



## kimthecat

@havoc  Shocking.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Well, it would seem that all of this discussion, conjecture and expense could all be for nothing.....  :Wideyed :Banghead

http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6


----------



## kimthecat

@MoggyBaby  ARRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH


----------



## stuaz

MoggyBaby said:


> Well, it would seem that all of this discussion, conjecture and expense could all be for nothing.....  :Wideyed :Banghead
> 
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6


I think it would be a very foolish Government to go against the outcome of the Referendum and one that would probably result in said Government's ultimate demise.


----------



## MoggyBaby

stuaz said:


> I think it would be a very foolish Government to go against the outcome of the Referendum and one that would probably result in said Government's ultimate demise.


Yes, it would be very foolish but the fact remains there is STILL a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card on the table......


----------



## Satori

Is Sadiq Kahn drunk out of his head?

Honesty, I expected banal ranting from Ruth Davidson and Frances O'Grady. They are a bit thick after all. But I have seen Sadiq Khan on much better form before. His low-life loutish behaviour is dreadfully embarrassing. He is completely out of his depth.

A huge win for the out side of the debate tonight I would say.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
the post i began yesterday, intending to connect USA national politics to Brexit, never got finished.
.
I don't think Prez Obama was "telling the British people what to do", altho i was helping my client while the speech was broadcast, & didn't hear every word. I got the overall impression that he expressed his feelings, his opinions, of what might be the consequences if Britain left the EU, vs what the outcome might be if the UK stayed in the EU - & that he thought staying was better both for the EU as a whole, & for Britain as a partner.
.
I'm not in the UK & cannot vote, but at the same time, it seems to me that being strongly connected to the other nations of western Europe is a good idea, if only because it spreads risk - an environmental disaster is unlikely to hit *all* 27 members, & the unaffected countries can help those who are overwhelmed by a flood, blizzard, wildfires, etc.
Climate instability means that bizarre events on both ends of the spectrum become more likely, flood / drought, blizzards / open winters, heatwaves / extreme cold, violent storms / hail / tornadoes, wind shear, downdrafts, & so on.
At the same time, outlier weather events are creating opportunities for alien species to reproduce madly in new habitats - molds, fungi, insects, rusts, arthropods, various fish / shellfish / snails, parasites, viruses, blights, & others.
If _Aedas Aegypti_ mosquitoes carrying malaria or Zika arrive in one country, it's not likely to arrive in all at the same time, & research, humanitarian aid, & action to limit the damage can begin quickly.
.
Similarly, a military threat to one country or adjoining neighbors is unlikely to bring them all to a crashing halt, & they can help defend one another from internal or external threats, such as home-grown terrorists, or incursions by Putin's 'local citizens' in mufti, via co-operative sharing of info, personnel, or hardware.
Mutual defense is a good strategy, employed by many species for millennia.
Sharing in peacetime can be equally beneficial, with research, science or Ag advances, job openings & workers seeking jobs, resorts & holiday-goers, culture, the arts, etc, moving back & forth between countries.
Life is made richer thru these close ties & mutual associations, IME.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Right. I am ready for the big referendum vote. I have my favourite black pen ready and I am planning to get up on Thursday and have a coffee and then go and vote (with my pen in hand) so it is done and out of the way. My polling station is literally 5 minutes walk away from where I live.

I need convincing I am not wasting my time and ink casting my vote  ( I am joking of course, I need very little convincing and every drop of ink used to cast my vote is worth it, I just hope there is a glimmer of hope the Leave campaign will win).

The only problem I see so far is there is still one whole day to go


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
I read this & thought, _"he *is* kidding - Right?..."_, but it seems he's serious. Incredible.
.
============ PASTED COPY =============

Michael Deacon

✔@MichaelPDeacon
I ask Nigel Farage why he's taken up cigarettes again.
Farage: "I think the doctors have got it wrong on smoking"

7:17 AM - 15 Jun 2016

====================================


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
sorry, no idea why that posted 2X - deleted duplicate. 
.
.
.


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Is Sadiq Kahn drunk out of his head?
> 
> Honesty, I expected banal ranting from Ruth Davidson and Frances O'Grady. They are a bit thick after all. But I have seen Sadiq Khan on much better form before. His low-life loutish behaviour is dreadfully embarrassing. He is completely out of his depth.
> 
> A huge win for the out side of the debate tonight I would say.


Still no facts though, just he said she said 

Ruddy Cameron said the other day in his appearance on question time "I won't baffle you with figures"

What an arrogant, condescending, stupid thing to say. It's facts and figures we need to make an informed decision


----------



## smokeybear

This thread has demonstrated once again that critical thought is not a major factor in any decision some people make which is a concern where decisions affecting the rest of us is concerned............................

Anyway, can't stop, just off to see Elvis who has at last been released from his cell by that secret cabal sponsored by a government agency .................


----------



## rona

smokeybear said:


> This thread has demonstrated once again that critical thought is not a major factor in any decision some people make which is a concern where decisions affecting the rest of us is concerned............................
> 
> Anyway, can't stop, just off to see Elvis who has at last been released from his cell by that secret cabal sponsored by a government agency .................


I assume you are voting in then?


----------



## MollySmith

I rather like this...

I'm 1, 5, 6, 9 and probably 10 if it goes horribly wrong!


----------



## kimthecat

I'm 2 4 7 9

I;m adding an extra one,
Leave but Cameron is still a dick


----------



## MiffyMoo

MoggyBaby said:


> Well, it would seem that all of this discussion, conjecture and expense could all be for nothing.....  :Wideyed :Banghead
> 
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6


Crikey, if they think the country is in uproar now, wait until they try and pull that little trick


----------



## MiffyMoo

Satori said:


> Is Sadiq Kahn drunk out of his head?
> 
> Honesty, I expected banal ranting from Ruth Davidson and Frances O'Grady. They are a bit thick after all. But I have seen Sadiq Khan on much better form before. His low-life loutish behaviour is dreadfully embarrassing. He is completely out of his depth.
> 
> A huge win for the out side of the debate tonight I would say.


Missed it


----------



## MiffyMoo

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> I read this & thought, _"he *is* kidding - Right?..."_, but it seems he's serious. Incredible.
> .
> ============ PASTED COPY =============
> 
> Michael Deacon
> 
> ✔@MichaelPDeacon
> I ask Nigel Farage why he's taken up cigarettes again.
> Farage: "I think the doctors have got it wrong on smoking"
> 
> 7:17 AM - 15 Jun 2016
> 
> ====================================


Of course he was joking


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> What a load of codswallop!!! The town I live in has almost doubled in size since I moved there 13 years ago and still they keep building there!! But there are no extra roads to cope with the traffic. There are still only 2 exits from the main dual carriageway which means it is taking longer & longer to get anywhere and it is also beginning to back up on the dual carriageway itself, thus causing major problems for other traffic! We have just found out they are building another 2500 homes on the lovely green fields alongside the canal. Where is all that nature going to go?
> 
> I moved there because it was close to open fields and still had a nice rural feel to it. Not anymore! I rarely hear English being spoken when I go into the town, there are more and more shops opening up with signage in foreign languages and houses are being built on every available bit of space - green or otherwise. In 13 years, the town and vicinity has changed practically beyond recognition.
> 
> This is nothing to do with house prices and NIMBY'ism - it's about losing the very reasons we chose to live in the areas we live in.





rona said:


> If the infrastructure went with it, then there wouldn't be such a problem. Our hospitals were at full stretch anyway, it's a huge area they cover and all villages and towns are increasing population by about 5%.
> The schools are losing their playing fields.
> 
> I don't give a toss about house prices etc. I care about loss of natural habitat and care of our sick


All this development & loss of natural habitat has nothing whatsoever to do with being in the EU. It is due to this government 'getting rid of red tape' that once protected our green belt. If we leave the EU, those left running the country have clearly stated they intend to deregulate, cut red tape, so how will this make things better for our countryside?

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-20199470

*Campaigners angry at Growth and Infrastructure Bill*
By Roger HarrabinEnvironment analyst

5 November 2012

From the sectionScience & Environment

525comments




http://www.facebook.com/dialog/feed...com/news/science-environment-20199470?SThisFB
https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?te...www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-20199470
https://www.linkedin.com/shareArtic... due to be debated in the Commons.&source=BBC









Image captionCampaigners fear the landscape will be spoiled by developers
Campaigners have accused the government of creating a developers' charter as its Growth and Infrastructure Bill was due to be debated in the Commons.

The government says the bill is needed to stimulate development.

But critics say it betrays ministers' promises to leave planning decisions to be made at local level.

They say it will rush through greenfield schemes for business and housing against the wishes of people living nearby.

Ministers have been persuaded that the planning system causes unnecessary delays to projects that will help the economy and create jobs.

The bill will create a fast-track for large-scale business and


----------



## kimthecat

We''re just repeating the same stuff now .


----------



## HollynSmudge

diefenbaker said:


> Another one who could start a fight in a room on their own. There's only one thing for it....


I wasn't trying to start a fight I'm just genuinely shocked that there are people who don't realise how much science does for our everyday lives... Even things that seem to have no practical application are very commonly adapted to improve some aspect of our life.


----------



## kimthecat

MiffyMoo said:


> Missed it


i saw a bit on the news and it seemed to be the same old thing , you're lying etc.

One Remain MP said that only 30% of our laws are EU ones , I wonder if that is correct. MY OH says that we adopt their laws before we legally have to which might make a difference to the %( I think i got that right )


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> One Remain MP said that only 30% of our laws are EU ones , I wonder if that is correct. MY OH says that we adopt their laws before we legally have to which might make a difference to the %( I think i got that right )


What are regulations but a law under a different guise?


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Tony Benn would have voted Leave,
> http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/tony-benn-on-britain-and-eu.html
> 
> "It is mystifying to me why so many people on the left in Britain are so bent on defending the EU and keeping Britain in it.
> 
> It is, first of all, a simple matter of democracy: why give up your sovereignty and democratic power to the EU and give away the power to change government policy on many substantive issues, when the EU is so clearly anti-democratic?
> 
> Secondly, the EU is a neoliberal train wreck: it was designed on economically conservative ideas and the worst neoclassical economics. It was designed to be a monetary union without a powerful central fiscal authority: an unworkable and disastrous idea. The Eurozone has led to catastrophe on the fringes of Europe in Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal and Baltic states. In the larger states like Germany and France the situation is somewhat better, but hardly anything to boast of.
> 
> ."


The EU is a neoliberal train wreck, but it offers us more social & environmental protection than a bunch of far right thatcherites would. That is the choice. A vote for the tory party is vote for neoliberal ideology. Thatcherism is neoliberalism.

George Monbiot nails it -

*The European Union is the worst choice - apart from the alternative*

*The EU is a festering cesspool. But it's a crystal spring compared with what the outers want to do - surrender Britain's sovereignty to the United States*

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/european-union-eu-britain-sovereignty


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> We''re just repeating the same stuff now .


Because no ones listening:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Because no ones listening:Hilarious


Does that include you ? heehee !


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> The EU is a neoliberal train wreck, but it offers us more social & environmental protection than a bunch of far right thatcherites would. That is the choice. A vote for the tory party is vote for neoliberal ideology. Thatcherism is neoliberalism.
> 
> George Monbiot nails it -
> 
> *The European Union is the worst choice - apart from the alternative*
> 
> *The EU is a festering cesspool. But it's a crystal spring compared with what the outers want to do - surrender Britain's sovereignty to the United States*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/european-union-eu-britain-sovereignty


You seem to be working on the assumption that the Tories will be in power for perpetuity. As much as I detest Labour, even I can see that that won't happen. Now if Thatcher were still leading the party, then I would be well up for it


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Is Sadiq Kahn drunk out of his head?
> 
> Honesty, I expected banal ranting from Ruth Davidson and Frances O'Grady. They are a bit thick after all. But I have seen Sadiq Khan on much better form before. His low-life loutish behaviour is dreadfully embarrassing. He is completely out of his depth.
> 
> A huge win for the out side of the debate tonight I would say.


 I am watching this now.


MollySmith said:


> I rather like this...
> 
> I'm 1, 5, 6, 9 and probably 10 if it goes horribly wrong!


I think I will vote 10 if the Leave campaign lose tomorrow, but if we win tomorrow the remain campaigners should opt for this option . I am joking of course.


----------



## rona

I forgot directives too

http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/legal-acts/index_en.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/applying-eu-law/index_en.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_directives


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> You seem to be working on the assumption that the Tories will be in power for perpetuity. As much as I detest Labour, even I can see that that won't happen. Now if Thatcher were still leading the party, then I would be well up for it


Are you aware the tories have been busy gerrymandering? The media will continue to undermine Corbyn & labour, the greens will never get a look in & the tories won't be held to account. They will be in power for years & the damage will be done. What about climate change? We know addressing this crisis it a matter of urgency.


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat said:


> I am watching this now.
> 
> I think I will vote 10 if the Leave campaign lose tomorrow, but if we win tomorrow the remain campaigners should opt for this option . I am joking of course.


I love the mentality of if we lose the right to stop people coming into our country, we will leave and move abroad! Seems pretty ironic.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Does that include you ? heehee !


No I do listen. But no one has given me any solid references. The infrastructure bill has ripped up red tape that once protected our green belt & that is a fact as you can see


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Are you aware the tories have been busy gerrymandering? The media will continue to undermine Corbyn & labour, the greens will never get a look in & the tories won't be held to account. They will be in power for years & the damage will be done. What about climate change? We know addressing this crisis it a matter of urgency.


Corbyn and Labour are making it ridiculously easy to undermine them


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Corbyn and Labour are making it ridiculously easy to undermine them


Still got to be better than a party that has trashed the economy, slashed public services , brought our NHS to its knees & asset stripped the country. Or hadn't you heard about all this?


----------



## stockwellcat.

emmaviolet said:


> I love the mentality of if we lose the right to stop people coming into our country, we will leave and move abroad! Seems pretty ironic.


People have pretty much made there minds up how they are voting tomorrow. What will be will be. Chill.

There isn't much else to cover with this referendum as it has been covered.

Friday everything will be back to normal and I can't wait.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> We're a pet forum but not much discussion has a been about pets and livestock and how they benefit from EU rules.


Like the environment, the tories record on animal welfare issues is dire. I honestly don't understand how any animal lover could ever consider voting for them.

Philip Lymbery of CIWF sent me this in a tweet.

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/philip-lymbery/blog/2016/06/brexit-through-the-eyes-of-farm-animals
*BREXIT THROUGH THE EYES OF FARM ANIMALS

*








Factory farming and the cruelty that it entails is not restricted to any one continent, country, or culture. It is a global predicament, being both the biggest cause of animal cruelty and a major driver of environmental harm.

The concept of the European Union was born of a newfound hope for a prosperous future, free from war and poverty. Now, on the 23rd June, British citizens face a crucial decision on whether to remain in this union of diverse countries, or to break away and strive to be independent once again.

My organisation, Compassion in World Farming, is apolitical: our sole ambition is to change our broken food system that treats animals as commodities and trashes the environment while doing so. I have made it my life goal to improve the lives of animals worldwide, so when such complex political questions as these arise, I feel it is my duty to examine what the outcome might be for those who are unable to vote, yet will still be undoubtedly affected by the decision.
*
In the past, the UK has often taken a strong lead on implementing legislation to benefit farm animal welfare. Sadly, the UK government appears to have very little appetite for improving the welfare of farm animals recently, instead preferring to maximise production, productivity, and exports. It is clear from the government's long-delayed 25-year plan for food and farming that animal welfare will not be a high priority when it comes to government policy going forward.*

Other EU countries have started to overtake us. In December 2014, the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark produced a Joint Declaration to call for substantial animal welfare improvements at EU level. *The UK did not sign*. At the same time, the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark produced a Joint Declaration calling for a strengthening of EU law on animal welfare during transport, including an 8-hour limit on journeys to slaughter, which would greatly reduce animal suffering. *The UK did not sign.*

The EU is often a driver for advances in farm animal welfare. The ban on the barren battery cage for laying hens, and the Lisbon treaty recognising animals as sentient beings both come from European legislation. But when faced with 28 countries, each with their own internal problems and priorities, enforcing these laws can be a huge challenge. Thirteen years after the EU law requiring provision of enrichment and banning routine tail docking of pigs came into force, a proportion of pig farmers in many EU countries, including the UK, are still not complying.

In our fight against live exports, we have been told time and again that since animals are legally considered 'goods', it would be unlawful under EU regulations to ban the trade of live animals. And yet, if we left the EU, the trade would most likely continue. Indeed, trade between the UK and member states would then be governed by World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules, which, just like the EU regulations, prohibit trade restrictions on 'goods'. Therefore, any attempt to ban live exports could face a challenge by the WTO, and without strong political will to see an end to the trade, any such move would be unlikely.

There are so many unknowns that it is impossible to say for certain whether animals would fare better inside or outside the EU. One thing I can say for sure, is that regardless of the outcome of the vote, Compassion in World Farming and myself will continue to do everything that we can to give the voteless a voice, and stand up for farm animals in the UK, the EU, and worldwide.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Still got to be better than a party that has trashed the economy, slashed public services , brought our NHS to its knees & asset stripped the country. Or hadn't you heard about all this?


Because Labour never did any of that.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Because Labour never did any of that.


I'm a member of the Green Party. I'm no apologist for labour, but in fairness to them the economy was growing, the NHS budget was in surplus, public services were better funded. And we had A LOT more assests!


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> I'm a member of the Green Party. I'm no apologist for labour, but in fairness to them the economy was growing, the NHS budget was in surplus, public services were better funded. And we had A LOT more assests!


Like the gold that they flogged at bottom dollar?


----------



## MilleD

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> I read this & thought, _"he *is* kidding - Right?..."_, but it seems he's serious. Incredible.
> .
> ============ PASTED COPY =============
> 
> Michael Deacon
> 
> ✔@MichaelPDeacon
> I ask Nigel Farage why he's taken up cigarettes again.
> Farage: "I think the doctors have got it wrong on smoking"
> 
> 7:17 AM - 15 Jun 2016
> 
> ====================================


Well, possibly an issue with what people tell you about quitting.

My mother is currently dying from terminal lung cancer.

She hasn't smoked for 25 years (40 a day while carrying me mind, which may explain a few things), but the consultant she saw said "that makes no difference, once you've smoked the damage is done".

So why the quit smoking campaigns? Should be don't start in the first place.


----------



## havoc

_http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6_
_Crikey, if they think the country is in uproar now, wait until they try and pull that little trick_
It's a Parliamentary vote. Would be interesting to see how all MPs vote and whether each would stick to the line they've taken through the lead up to the referendum, change to the national count or want details of how the vote went in their own area.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Like the gold that they flogged at bottom dollar?


I'm not defending anything they did. They sold our gold, this lot are selling off EVERYTHING. We're seeing the greatest transfer of public assets in private pockets with Osbornes Austerity. Selling everything off plus all these savage cuts. And hes still failed to eliminate the deficit or pay down the debt. Some would say we've been well and truly conned. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...uts-privatising-george-osborne-britain-assets


----------



## Pappychi

MollySmith said:


> I rather like this...
> 
> I'm 1, 5, 6, 9 and probably 10 if it goes horribly wrong!


I'm a big proud number 8 :Couchpotato Oh and the sick of hearing about it one as well :Smuggrin


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat said:


> People have pretty much made there minds up how they are voting tomorrow. What will be will be. Chill.
> 
> There isn't much else to cover with this referendum as it has been covered.
> 
> Friday everything will be back to normal and I can't wait.


I am pretty chill, I've already decided, sent off a postal vote.

Doesn't mean I don't see the obvious irony and hypocrisy, that leavers do not want any foreigners to enter Britain, should they lose, a good number of them want out of the country to become a migrant in another European country.


----------



## Catharinem

leashedForLife said:


> .
> I'm not in the UK & cannot vote, but at the same time, it seems to me that being strongly connected to the other nations of western Europe is a good idea, if only because it spreads risk - an environmental disaster is unlikely to hit *all* 27 members, & the unaffected countries can help those who are overwhelmed by a flood, blizzard, wildfires, etc.
> Climate instability means that bizarre events on both ends of the spectrum become more likely, flood / drought, blizzards / open winters, heatwaves / extreme cold, violent storms / hail / tornadoes, wind shear, downdrafts, & so on.
> At the same time, outlier weather events are creating opportunities for alien species to reproduce madly in new habitats - molds, fungi, insects, rusts, arthropods, various fish / shellfish / snails, parasites, viruses, blights, & others.
> If _Aedas Aegypti_ mosquitoes carrying malaria or Zika arrive in one country, it's not likely to arrive in all at the same time, & research, humanitarian aid, & action to limit the damage can begin quickly.
> .
> Similarly, a military threat to one country or adjoining neighbors is unlikely to bring them all to a crashing halt, & they can help defend one another from internal or external threats, such as home-grown terrorists, or incursions by Putin's 'local citizens' in mufti, via co-operative sharing of info, personnel, or hardware.
> Mutual defense is a good strategy, employed by many species for millennia.
> Sharing in peacetime can be equally beneficial, with research, science or Ag advances, job openings & workers seeking jobs, resorts & holiday-goers, culture, the arts, etc, moving back & forth between countries.
> Life is made richer thru these close ties & mutual associations, IME.
> .


All the above can be achieved without having our laws of the land approved or overruled by Europe.

In the event of environmental disaster such as fire or flooding, we would help each other anyway: we already send specialist rescue teams, shelter, food, water cleansing tablets and doctors over to stricken areas of the world when needed. It falls on us as human beings to help each other in our hour of need. We don't need to be part of the European Union to send aid to other countries. Though asking farmers effected by flooding to update their "soil protection reviews", as required for the Basic Payment Scheme overseen by Europe, seemed a little insensitive when farmers had enough to deal with already. We aren't part of Africa either, but we send aid.

We have "strong ties" to most of the English speaking world: Canada, Australia, New Zealand even share our Queen, and we like to think we are freinds with America, though not BFFs like in some schoolyard.

Dealing with alien species or disease together does not mean we have to be in the European Union together. When Ebola raised it's head scientists worked to find an effective vaccine, and doctors and nurses from Europe travelled to Africa at great personal risk. It's about humanity, not about being part of Europe. Ditto the Zika virus carried by Aedas aegypti ( not Aedas Aegypti !) mosquitoes is a concern at the moment. I don't beleive scientists will stop collaborating with each other whichever way the vote goes tomorrow.

Mutual defense? I thought Britain put quite a lot on the line to help France in WW2? In the event of an act of war against one of our neighbours I hope we would step up to the line again. Terrorism is harder to deal with, but there's no reason to not share information. However, stronger border controls might stop some ( not all) movement of terrorists between countries.

Animal welfare rules are a joke across Europe. Each country applies the laws in a timeframe it sees fit ( or applies for exemptions), we play by the rules and then people expect low supermarket prices for their meat to match cheap imports from lower welfare countries. And the really cheap meat ( chicken in supermarket curry for example) comes from places like China. I would have no imports of meat unless it could be shown that our need exceeded our production. I would also have no export/inport of live animals unless they were high quality breeding stock required for an improvement breeding programme.

Job opportunities will still exist for those with skills ( work permits as per eg Australia), and sabbaticals/ job swaps between departments of different universitys across the world should be easily achievable.

If I want to see art in France or art in America, I still need to sort housesitting, petsitting, replacement carer for farm livestock, change of currency, packing, transport and accommodation - an extra couple of hours either end of my holiday is neither here nor there.

Life is indeed made richer through close ties and mutual associations. We are a part of Europe, the continent, whether we vote to stay in or out of the European Union.


----------



## MiffyMoo

So it seems that Germany won't stop trading with us if we leave. Surprise, surprise

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060


----------



## havoc

I don't think there was ever a suggestion that trade would stop, only that the terms would have to be negotiated.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> I don't think there was ever a suggestion that trade would stop, only that the terms would have to be negotiated.


I've been told that nobody would trade with us if we left, hence the need to stay in


----------



## Honeys mum

EU referendum: Tate & Lyle Sugars joins campaign to leave EU - BBC News


----------



## DoodlesRule

MollySmith said:


> Can I ask about the abstainers? Why? Genuinely nosey.


My Dad was 86 a few weeks ago, he has voted in every general election since he reached voting age (think it was 21 back then). I was therefore genuinely shocked when he told me he would not be voting in the referendum and I asked him why not. He said that he feels he would be voting for a bed for someone else to lie in and its not like a general election where you can vote again in a few years time. In his view he thinks there should have been a maximum age because at his age any outcome years down the line are unlikely to affect him.


----------



## MiffyMoo

DoodlesRule said:


> My Dad was 86 a few weeks ago, he has voted in every general election since he reached voting age (think it was 21 back then). I was therefore genuinely shocked when he told me he would not be voting in the referendum and I asked him why not. He said that he feels he would be voting for a bed for someone else to lie in and its not like a general election where you can vote again in a few years time. In his view he thinks there should have been a maximum age because at his age any outcome years down the line are unlikely to affect him.


A friend of mine posted something along those lines on Facebook. She said 60 though, which I thought was unfair, as 60 is still really young. She is 68, so I couldn't tell her off for being ageist


----------



## noushka05

:Hilarious


----------



## MoggyBaby

Oh now, here's a wee surprise.

You know how Big Dave the Rave has insisted that Turkey won't join the EU in the next gizillion years....

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/31896584/eu-turkey-to-open-new-membership-talks-sources/#page1


----------



## rona

MoggyBaby said:


> Oh now, here's a wee surprise.
> 
> You know how Big Dave the Rave has insisted that Turkey won't join the EU in the next gizillion years....
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/31896584/eu-turkey-to-open-new-membership-talks-sources/#page1


What I can never understand with this argument is that the In campaign keep saying this is for your children and grand children and you should vote for them, but then say Turkey joining in 30 years time shouldn't concern anyone


----------



## DoodlesRule

Still relating to the referendum/voting but slightly different (most of us are all debated out on the usual issues I am sure!) Found out something yesterday that really shocked me and I wondered what you all thought.

You may or may not know that my mum has advanced dementia and has been in a care home for 12 months, the residents have all had their voting cards. She doesn't even know her own name, doesn't have a clue who I am etc let alone anything about European elections. It appears that care homes get a form to fill in with details of all the residents for the electoral register and having dementia doesn't stop you having a vote! I just think its really open to abuse - she can't sign her name anymore so in theory no one could apply for say a postal vote for her but who is to say it could not happen.


----------



## rona

DoodlesRule said:


> Still relating to the referendum/voting but slightly different (most of us are all debated out on the usual issues I am sure!) Found out something yesterday that really shocked me and I wondered what you all thought.
> 
> You may or may not know that my mum has advanced dementia and has been in a care home for 12 months, the residents have all had their voting cards. She doesn't even know her own name, doesn't have a clue who I am etc let alone anything about European elections. It appears that care homes get a form to fill in with details of all the residents for the electoral register and having dementia doesn't stop you having a vote! I just think its really open to abuse - she can't sign her name anymore so in theory no one could apply for say a postal vote for her but who is to say it could not happen.


That's worrying isn't it?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/22/section/73

Was it an EU directive?


----------



## DoodlesRule

rona said:


> That's worrying isn't it?
> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/22/section/73
> 
> I found it really bizarre - we are lucky its a really good care home and I am sure nothing untoward would occur there, but there are a lot of people in care homes and some could easily be coerced
> 
> Was it an EU directive?


Ha ha very likely


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> What I can never understand with this argument is that the In campaign keep saying this is for your children and grand children and you should vote for them, but then say Turkey joining in 30 years time shouldn't concern anyone


The economy, jobs, the NHS, environment are all in greater jeopardy if we brexit. And that Is according to the consensus of experts in all these areas - not me. So believe me people on the remain side ARE thinking of their childrens future. My children are young men now, old enough to vote themselves. They are voting to remain because they are fully aware what we risk if we leave - and I was really pleased to hear that most of their friends ('all' the ones they now work with plus the ones who they went to uni with ) are voting remain too. However from what I've seen & heard in my home town, most people don't feel the same. All they talk about is migrants :/. They actually believe they are to blame for everything. If its like this all over the country, I think leave will be a landslide. God help us. Its going to be like jumping off a cliff blindfolded.:Wideyed

Never mind though, at least multi millionaire Boris is 'humble' enough to apologise if it does all go **** up & the economy nose dives & we lose our jobs, homes ,nhs etc I'm sure we'll feel much better for that lol


----------



## noushka05

Everyone ought to check out Owen Jones latest article.

*David Cameron's fatal mistakes on immigration threaten our country's future*

*
A Brexit Britain would be down to the prime minister's fuelling of anti-immigrant sentiment and his impossible promises on targets*

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-on-immigration-threaten-our-countrys-future


----------



## Jonescat

It is the little things and the wild things that matter for me:
https://www.buglife.org.uk/blog/mat...-the-eu-–-it’s-about-responsibility-not-power

https://www.foe.co.uk/blog/what-has-eu-done-uk-bees

http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/EU-Ref-Position


----------



## noushka05

Jonescat said:


> It is the little things and the wild things that matter for me:
> https://www.buglife.org.uk/blog/matt-shardlow-ceo/wildlife-and-the-eu---it's-about-responsibility-not-power
> 
> https://www.foe.co.uk/blog/what-has-eu-done-uk-bees
> 
> http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/EU-Ref-Position


And me. When the leave campaigners champion deregulation & the cutting of red tape - my heart sinks. The EUs Habitats & Species directives legislation has protected our most vulnerable species.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> What I can never understand with this argument is that the In campaign keep saying this is for your children and grand children and you should vote for them, but then say Turkey joining in 30 years time shouldn't concern anyone


From my point of view it's because we have plenty of time to negotiate changes to the free movement regulations in the intervening 30 years, and if we don't, and the situation is not acceptable to us, we can leave the EU any time we want.

If we Leave tomorrow, then there's no coming back.

So as far as tomorrow's vote is concerned, Turkey's accession remains a complete red herring.


----------



## kimthecat

[QUOTE="noushka05, post: 1064574394, member: 2189"Like the environment, the tories record on animal welfare issues is dire. I honestly don't understand how any animal lover could ever consider voting for them.

Philip Lymbery of CIWF sent me this in a tweet.

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/philip-lymbery/blog/2016/06/brexit-through-the-eyes-of-farm-animals
*BREXIT THROUGH THE EYES OF FARM ANIMALS*
.[/QUOTE]

I read it on their website along with -

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/4037267/Export_of_live_animals_from_eu_to_noneu_countries.pdf
The EU has developed a ruthless
live export trade in which many
animals are transported over huge
distances and often suffer greatly
both during the journey and on
arrival at their destination.

There's still along way to go with animal welfare, I hope I live long enough to see the banning of livestock abroad .

The EU has done good in some cases but , as mentioned in an earlier thread to leashed for life , they allow France and Spain to carry the cruel practice of force feeding Geese for Foie gras.

We have strong animal campaigners and organisations in this country, we've had successes eg Labour banned hunting with dogs and Wales has banned shock collars . AFAIK this wasn't to do with the EU. I don't think we should underestimate what we can do if we leave the EU .

As Philip Lymbery said "There are so many unknowns that it is impossible to say for certain whether animals would fare better inside or outside the EU."


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
DoodlesRule,
i'd worry over that situation, too - my clients with advanced dementia were no more capable of logical reasoning to VOTE than to do anything else, & yes, they could be persuaded to let someone do it "for" them, & thus allow another person to use their votes to further someone's agenda.
I can see a caregiver being paid per vote to throw the impaired residents' votes a particular way. Heck, i could see a facility director using this as a way to help fund operations.
.
Very worrying. 
.
.
.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Arnie83 said:


> From my point of view it's because we have plenty of time to negotiate changes to the free movement regulations in the intervening 30 years, and if we don't, and the situation is not acceptable to us, we can leave the EU any time we want.
> 
> If we Leave tomorrow, then there's no coming back.
> 
> So as far as tomorrow's vote is concerned, Turkey's accession remains a complete red herring.


Read this morning that Junker has said there will be no further negotiations on anything - he says Cameron got the maximum he could get, the EU gave the maximum it could give. The so called concessions he did get will most likely be ripped up any way should the country vote to remain. I don't understand why any one can believe the "stay & get change from within line", we have never got anything changed in all the years we have been a member.

Oh, also read that Cameron has already confirmed he will not stand in the way of fast tracking Turkeys membership


----------



## stockwellcat.

DoodlesRule said:


> Read this morning that Junker has said there will be no further negotiations on anything - he says Cameron got the maximum he could get, the EU gave the maximum it could give. The so called concessions he did get will most likely be ripped up any way should the country vote to remain. I don't understand why any one can believe the "stay & get change from within line", we have never got anything changed in all the years we have been a member.
> 
> Oh, also read that Cameron has already confirmed he will not stand in the way of fast tracking Turkeys membership


More reasons to:


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Everyone ought to check out Owen Jones latest article.
> 
> *David Cameron's fatal mistakes on immigration threaten our country's future*
> 
> *
> A Brexit Britain would be down to the prime minister's fuelling of anti-immigrant sentiment and his impossible promises on targets*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-on-immigration-threaten-our-countrys-future


I just read it and have no idea what the end is meant to be. He did what he always does, had a pop at the Tory government, this time for their past broken promises, but then ends with "we'll all regret it". Ok fine, but Why? He really is an irritating little twerp


----------



## Honeys mum

MoggyBaby said:


> Oh now, here's a wee surprise.
> 
> You know how Big Dave the Rave has insisted that Turkey won't join the EU in the next gizillion years....


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> The media will continue to undermine Corbyn & labour, the greens will never get a look in & the tories won't be held to account. They will be in power for years


Every cloud has a silver lining.


----------



## havoc

_We have strong animal campaigners and organisations in this country, we've had successes eg Labour banned hunting with dogs and Wales has banned shock collars . AFAIK this wasn't to do with the EU. I don't think we should underestimate what we can do if we leave the EU ._
Amazing how that's happened really as so many people think countries within the EU have no control over their own laws.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Satori said:


> Every cloud has a silver lining.


And, when it comes to clouds, David Cameron is the biggest, ugliest, wettest one on the skyline!!!


----------



## Honeys mum

rona said:


> but then say Turkey joining in 30 years time shouldn't concern anyone


BREAKING: EU to told talks with Turkey over Brussels membership NEXT WEEK | World | News | Daily Express


----------



## Honeys mum

EU referendum - Brussels boss Juncker slaps down PM to insist he'll get NO more reform | Politics | News | Daily Express


----------



## MoggyBaby

havoc said:


> _We have strong animal campaigners and organisations in this country, we've had successes eg Labour banned hunting with dogs and Wales has banned shock collars . AFAIK this wasn't to do with the EU. I don't think we should underestimate what we can do if we leave the EU ._
> Amazing how that's happened really as so many people think countries within the EU have no control over their own laws.


I believe we can make our own laws as long as they don't conflict with any EU laws. The issue is that there are EU laws which may be beneficial to other European countries but not the Uk but we still have to adhere to them regardless.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> [QUOTE="noushka05, post: 1064574394, member: 2189"Like the environment, the tories record on animal welfare issues is dire. I honestly don't understand how any animal lover could ever consider voting for them.
> 
> Philip Lymbery of CIWF sent me this in a tweet.
> 
> http://www.ciwf.org.uk/philip-lymbery/blog/2016/06/brexit-through-the-eyes-of-farm-animals
> *BREXIT THROUGH THE EYES OF FARM ANIMALS*
> .


I read it on their website along with -

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/4037267/Export_of_live_animals_from_eu_to_noneu_countries.pdf
The EU has developed a ruthless
live export trade in which many
animals are transported over huge
distances and often suffer greatly
both during the journey and on
arrival at their destination.

There's still along way to go with animal welfare, I hope I live long enough to see the banning of livestock abroad .

The EU has done good in some cases but , as mentioned in an earlier thread to leashed for life , they allow France and Spain to carry the cruel practice of force feeding Geese for Foie gras.

We have strong animal campaigners and organisations in this country, we've had successes eg Labour banned hunting with dogs and Wales has banned shock collars . I don't think we should underestimate what we can do if we leave the EU .

As Philip Lymbery said "There are so many unknowns that it is impossible to say for certain whether animals would fare better inside or outside the EU."[/QUOTE]

*Yes of course the EU is far, far from perfect, but this is the CIWFs most recent article. But as you can see under a tory government things wont improve & If we brexit we will have an EXTREME right wing government who believe in unfettered capitalism. Livestock will suffer under a deregulated system. The risk is great.*

ETA oops dont know whats happened here :/ Will darken my reply


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I just read it and have no idea what the end is meant to be. He did what he always does, had a pop at the Tory government, this time for their past broken promises, but then ends with "we'll all regret it". Ok fine, but Wh*y? He really is an irritating little twerp*


He doesn't tend to irritate those of us who value social justice - funny that. Its not having a pop - its exposing the lies & the deceit of this toxic government. And he holds them to account - which is where our media has failed us! Here's his latest video, lets see how things pan out if (when?) we do brexit. I hope & pray hes wrong, but somehow, I doubt it...


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> From my point of view it's because we have plenty of time to negotiate changes to the free movement regulations in the intervening 30 years, and if we don't, and the situation is not acceptable to us, we can leave the EU any time we want.
> 
> If we Leave tomorrow, then there's no coming back.
> 
> So as far as tomorrow's vote is concerned, Turkey's accession remains a complete red herring.


We can only leave the EU if the politicians allow it.
I can't see free movement being stopped even though the people want it. The more fodder some of the rich have to screw the better they like it and they don't have to live with the consequences with their private health care, property in the countryside and no fear of not paying the bills.
They need as many tax paying hard working plebs as possible so that they can give themselves tax breaks and even better incomes

Christ they've even got Corbyn spinning the line now


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> We can only leave the EU if the politicians allow it.
> I can't see free movement being stopped even though the people want it. The more fodder some of the rich have to screw the better they like it and they don't have to live with the consequences with their private health care, property in the countryside and no fear of not paying the bills.
> They need as many tax paying hard working plebs as possible so that they can give themselves tax breaks and even better incomes
> 
> Christ they've even got Corbyn spinning the line now


I think that if they don't honour the leave vote if it goes that way there would be uproar and people protesting and riots.


----------



## kimthecat

[/QUOTE]

That's not a very good list , they forgot to add the four horsemen of apocalypse.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> I think that if they don't honour the leave vote if it goes that way there would be uproar and people protesting and riots.


I'm talking hypothetically about the future here if Turkey joins. They don't have to hold another referendum if this one says stay and they don't have to change free movement rules


----------



## noushka05

Why Germany banned referendums after Hitler ...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/21/brexit-euroscepticism-history


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


>


That's not a very good list , they forgot to add the four horsemen of apocalypse. [/QUOTE]

If all this comes to pass, I really wont enjoy saying 'Owen told you so' lol

.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> If all this comes to pass, I really wont enjoy saying 'Owen told you so' lol


I bet you will


----------



## Arnie83

I don't like doing this responding to every point thing, so please excuse me ...



DoodlesRule said:


> Read this morning that Junker has said there will be no further negotiations on anything - he says Cameron got the maximum he could get, the EU gave the maximum it could give.


I don't expect there will be any changes in the immediate future. That would send the wrong message to other EU members that throwing your toys out the pram is a good way of getting what you want, which I don't think is a good plan.



DoodlesRule said:


> The so called concessions he did get will most likely be ripped up any way should the country vote to remain.


Why? All the leaders of all the countries have accepted the changes. Do you have a reason to suspect that one or more of them is lying?



DoodlesRule said:


> I don't understand why any one can believe the "stay & get change from within line", we have never got anything changed in all the years we have been a member.


Off the top of my head we got the rebate, and Cameron helped to get the budget reduced last time round.

And we were not only involved in the negotiations for all the treaties, but they were then ratified by our Parliament, which is acceptance by the people's representatives that they were what we wanted.

The pro-democracy changes in the Lisbon Treaty were quite significant, wouldn't you say?



DoodlesRule said:


> Oh, also read that Cameron has already confirmed he will not stand in the way of fast tracking Turkeys membership


I've looked for this and can't find it anywhere. Do you have a source?


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> BREAKING: EU to told talks with Turkey over Brussels membership NEXT WEEK | World | News | Daily Express


I haven't read the Express - there are limits - but the EU agreed long ago to open 1 more of the 35 Chapters. This headline is the usual scaremongering by the Express.


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> I haven't read the Express - there are limits - but the EU agreed long ago to open 1 more of the 35 Chapters. This headline is the usual scaremongering by the Express.


Maybe ,who knows.Which ever way you look at it,, D.C. and the Remain camp do just as much scaremongering, and lies.
If you watched the debate on BBC 1 last night, the remain side said numerous times, that Turkey will not be joining the E.U. for decades.

Only time will tell, and by then it will be to late if the remain happen to win.


----------



## MilleD

Honeys mum said:


> Maybe ,who knows.Which ever way you look at it,, D.C. and the Remain camp do just as much scaremongering, and lies.
> If you watched the debate on BBC 1 last night, the remain side said numerous times, that Turkey will not be joining the E.U. for decades.
> 
> Only time will tell, and by then it will be to late if the remain happen to win.


But what they are effectively saying with that is that if countries like Turkey do join, it _will_ be a problem?

I wish they would make their minds up.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> I think that if they don't
> honour the leave vote if it goes that way there would be uproar and people protesting and riots.


I think I can remember D.C. saying that he would honour the leave vote if we won , but i can't remember where i read it.
But however, you can't believe anything he say's.


----------



## havoc

_I think I can remember D.C. saying that he would honour the leave vote if we wo_n 
It isn't up to him alone.


----------



## Satori

DoodlesRule said:


> Still relating to the referendum/voting but slightly different (most of us are all debated out on the usual issues I am sure!) Found out something yesterday that really shocked me and I wondered what you all thought.
> 
> You may or may not know that my mum has advanced dementia and has been in a care home for 12 months, the residents have all had their voting cards. She doesn't even know her own name, doesn't have a clue who I am etc let alone anything about European elections. It appears that care homes get a form to fill in with details of all the residents for the electoral register and having dementia doesn't stop you having a vote! I just think its really open to abuse - she can't sign her name anymore so in theory no one could apply for say a postal vote for her but who is to say it could not happen.


The whole process seems poorly controlled to me. The fact that you don't need your polling card or ID to cast your vote (or someone else's) is ludicrous.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> *Yes of course the EU is far, far from perfect, but this is the CIWFs most recent article. But as you can see under a tory government things wont improve & If we brexit we will have an EXTREME right wing government who believe in unfettered capitalism. Livestock will suffer under a deregulated system. The risk is great.*


The Tories will be out next election and I would hope that Labour would be willing to look at a law change.

This seems to suggest that the Eu could block any change of UK law that would stop exports

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/live-animal-transport/uk-live-exports/

*"We need a change in the law*
The Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act (1847) states that all ports must allow the free trade of 'goods', including farm animals. So, by law British public ports must allow lorries full of animals to pass through, even if the port authority doesn't agree with the trade. It's about time this law was updated so that ports can legally refuse consignments of live, sentient, animals without fear of legal repercussions.

The amendments we're calling for are not unreasonable. And if the UK does get challenged by the EU the Government should do the right thing and stand up for the animals facing export. The Government should take the case to the European Courts if necessary."

The EU law says that journeys must be limited to 8 hours , most journeys to parts of Europe are more than that . Even if the lorry isn't travelling , they must still have to stay in it until they reach their destination .


----------



## Satori

kimthecat said:


> The Tories will be out next election


Not a chance. Steptoe is sticking around for the duration and nobody's going to vote for that nutter.

I feel a poll coming on.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> *"We need a change in the law
> The Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act (1847) states that all ports must allow the free trade of 'goods', including farm animals. So, by law British public ports must allow lorries full of animals to pass through, even if the port authority doesn't agree with the trade. It's about time this law was updated so that ports can legally refuse consignments of live, sentient, animals without fear of legal repercussions.
> 
> The amendments we're calling for are not unreasonable. And if the UK does get challenged by the EU the Government should do the right thing and stand up for the animals facing export. The Government should take the case to the European Courts if necessary."
> 
> The EU law says that journeys must be limited to 8 hours , most journeys to parts of Europe are more than that . Even if the lorry isn't travelling , they must still have to stay in it until they reach their destination .*


I am afraid we won't be able to change anything whilst in the EU. Junker warned the UK today stay or leave there are no renegotiations as Britain got more than what the EU/Brussels was prepared to offer.

http://news.sky.com/story/1715890/eu-chiefs-referendum-warning-out-is-out


----------



## Blackadder

I still haven't got a clue, neither side has convinced me one way or the other.


----------



## MoggyBaby

All through this run-up, I have kept an open mind on all the options. I have come at it with an out position but have been prepared to listen to alternative views in the event of seeing something to make me re-evaluate my stance. Others have had their say, I have been happy to read them.

HOWEVER... there is one issue which is now REALLY beginning to get on my mammaries...

I am SICK of being called selfish because I am choosing to vote Leave as this doesn't fit in with other folks agenda! This vote is as much about MY future as it is others. WHY should I go against my preference because it suits someone else. If I choose to vote Stay, because it suits Joe Bloggs, is Joe Bloggs going to vote Leave because it suits me?? Is he feck as like! Joe Bloggs gets 2 votes and I get sod all.

So, by all means call me selfish because I am thinking about what I want but just remember, when you place your vote with YOUR preference, your selfishness is on par with mine!


----------



## Lurcherlad

And of course, voting Leave means you MUST be a racist!


----------



## stockwellcat.

This referendum has dragged on far to long.
I have been name called like everyone else voting leave (not directly but indirectly), I have been called racist (not directly but indirectly) because I was prepared to speak up on issues that affect Britain today. Well last time I looked this was meant to be a fair and open referendum and debate.
I am voting leave because I am patriotic and believe that Britain can be independent again.
I am voting leave because I believe in British values not European values.
I am voting leave for the future of our children and their children and so on.
I am voting leave because I believe in being called British not European.
I am voting leave because my grandfather fought for this country to be free and independent and not run by a foreign powerhouse or Governed by a foreign power.
I am voting leave not because anyone influenced me but because I believe it is right to claim back our own country.
I am voting leave so get over it.

I am not right winged, left winged, facist or support such groups. I am straight down the middle and will listen to everyone. I am strongly opinionated but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Good luck tomorrow everyone.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Just doing my bit to help with all the misinformation going around....


----------



## stockwellcat.

MoggyBaby said:


> Just doing my bit to help with all the misinformation going around....
> 
> View attachment 275038


They forgot to add if we vote leave:
WW3 will happen
The Apocalypse is going to happen
Aliens are going to attack us for leaving
The sky is going to fold in on us for leaving
The world economy will collapse
Cameron might be on the dole (wishful thinking)
Other countries are going to follow (France, Sweden, Spain, Greece others countries to join the list are pending)
The EU chiefs will have a hissy fit.
President Obama doesn't want to trade with us but he is out of a job in November 2016 
We have access to the rest of the world to trade with
Junker said no more renegotiations


----------



## MoggyBaby

stockwellcat said:


> They forgot to add if we vote leave:
> WW3 will happen
> The Apocalypse is going to happen
> Aliens are going to attack us for leaving
> The sky is going to fold in on us for leaving
> The world economy will collapse
> Cameron might be on the dole (wishful thinking)
> Other countries are going to follow (France, Sweden, Spain, Greece others countries to join the list are pending)
> The EU chiefs will have a hissy fit.
> President Obama doesn't want to trade with us but he is out of a job in November 2016
> We have access to the rest of the world to trade with
> *Junker said no more renegotiations*


I think the news breaking on the last point today has helped the Leave campaign to get more numbers on their side. as it is another classic case of EU pulling the Big Brother strings and this is what is upsetting most people. It's not the immigration, or the money being sent over, but people like this who decided - from their Ivory Towers - what is good for us and are not prepared to allow negotiation.

This is certainly one of the main points for my decision to vote Out.


----------



## KittenKong

I wonder how England would've treated Scotland had they won their independence referendum. Would England have come to their aid if it turned out to be disastrous or would they have said, "Your problem, not ours. You chose to leave us, get on with it"?
Don't expect any favours from our former EU allies should exiting prove to be a disaster!


----------



## MoggyBaby

KittenKong said:


> I wonder how England would've treated Scotland had they won their independence referendum. Would England have come to their aid if it turned out to be disastrous or would they have said, "Your problem, not ours. You chose to leave us, get on with it"?
> Don't expect any favours from our former EU friends should exiting prove to be a disaster!


'Former' being the word. Europe hasn't really been a friend to the UK for a very long time. Happy to take our monetary contributions but not giving us any respect or treating us nicely in any way.

As my old mum would say "With friend like that, who needs enemies?"


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Don't expect any favours from our former EU friends should exiting prove to be a disaster!


We aren't expecting any favours. Junker said there aren't any. Suits me. God help us how does Switzerland manage, oh they are richer now than they ever where in the EU, Australia and New Zealand are Islands and manage to cope. Really, disaster. Me thinks not. The only pending disaster is the EU. What happens when they have a stock market crash and the Euro is worth nothing. They'll be asking us to bail them out.

People fought in the second world war against tyrants (like my granddad did) and fought for the UK to be a free independent country. My grandad would be turning in his grave at the thought of Britain being ruled by a foreign country/continent and powerhouse.


----------



## MiffyMoo

MoggyBaby said:


> Just doing my bit to help with all the misinformation going around....
> 
> View attachment 275038


Bugger that, I'm terrified of clowns!


----------



## MollySmith

Just thought it was time for this (I've been waiting for 57 pages)


----------



## noushka05

Much of Brexit's appeal derives from biased reporting in British newspapers. This is a really well-informed article in the New York times. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/22/o...l?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

*The upshot is that Mr. Johnson and his fellow Brexit proponents are now campaigning against the caricature of the European Union that he himself helped create. They are asking the British people to part with a monster about as real as the one in Loch Ness. Mr. Johnson may be witty and amusing, but he is extremely dangerous. What began as a bit of a joke could inflict terrible damage on his country.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *may be witty and amusing, but he is extremely dangerous. What began as a bit of a joke could inflict terrible damage on his country.*


That about sums Cameron and Osborne up. Well done. But you missed two words off for these two clowns (Cameron and Osborne) "total liars".


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Much of Brexit's appeal derives from biased reporting in British newspapers. This is a really well-informed article in the New York times. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/22/o...l?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share
> 
> *The upshot is that Mr. Johnson and his fellow Brexit proponents are now campaigning against the caricature of the European Union that he himself helped create. They are asking the British people to part with a monster about as real as the one in Loch Ness. Mr. Johnson may be witty and amusing, but he is extremely dangerous. What began as a bit of a joke could inflict terrible damage on his country.*


Written by Martin Fletcher, former editor of the Times UK. He's a Brit who flogged his story in the US


----------



## kimthecat

@MoggyBaby 

If I'd had known I get a free puppy , I'd have voted Remain , damn it .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> @MoggyBaby
> 
> If I'd had known I get a free puppy , I'd have voted Remain , damn it .


I would have still voted out unless a free kitten was on offer, then and only then I might be persuaded


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> That about sums Cameron and Osborne up. Well done. But you missed two words off for these two clowns (Cameron and Osborne) "total liars".


Something we completely agree on. Cameron & Osborne 'are' total liars. Pathological liars - just like Johnson.



MiffyMoo said:


> Written by Martin Fletcher, former editor of the Times UK. He's a Brit who flogged his story in the US


And your point is? :/ Boris was sacked by the Times for lying - hes been caught out lying time & time again. I'm only amazed anyone takes him seriously.


----------



## noushka05

For people concerned about our NHS. A message from the NHA Party.

*Clive Peedell* ‏@cpeedell  2h2 hours ago
"Why it is safer for the NHS to remain in the EU" - the NHA Party position. There are clearly huge threats to... http://fb.me/15eGsGADZ

"Why it is safer for the NHS to remain in the EU" - the NHA Party position.

There are clearly huge threats to the NHS whether we choose to remain or stay in the EU because of chronic underfunding and increasing marketisation and privatisation. However, the National Health Action Party has taken the clear view that the best way to ensure the long term viability of a publicly funded and provided NHS is to remain in the EU.
We understand that remaining in the EU puts the NHS at risk of being locked into irreversible privatisation through the provisions of the proposed TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) deal. However, it is increasingly likely that the NHS will be exempted from TTIP. In fact, the whole TTIP process is under serious threat of collapse at present. There is a now good opportunity to defend our public services from this disgraceful undemocratic, secretive and unaccountable trade deal. We must therefore continue the campaign to scrap any notion of public services being written into this trade deal.
Some might argue that a simpler and more effective approach would be to vote to leave the EU and thus TTIP would no longer be a problem. However, the idea that the NHS would be safer and at less risk of privatisation by voting for Brexit is wrong headed. It completely fails to address the economic and political consequences of leaving the EU in an era of neoliberal global financialisation. The policy making powers of all nation states are curtailed by the fear of capital flight. Investors and the financial markets demand that nation states deliver low tax economies and price stability. That means cutting back on public spending - "rolling back the state", and liberalising labour laws ie forcing down wages and attacking the terms and conditions of ordinary working people to keep inflation down. Workers will be more at risk because they will lose the protections they had within the EU. We will be left in a long term downward spiral of austerity and will see a continued decline in our public services. The NHS will crumble and fall.
The only way to get out of the austerity trap is to invest in our public 
services, especially health and education, which have the strongest fiscal multiplier effects. We need strong health and education systems for a strong economy. The money could be raised by cracking down on tax avoidance and introducing a financial transaction tax, which are more likely to occur by remaining in the EU, because of the need for agreement at a supranational level.

There are many other reasons why the NHS would better off in the EU. The NHS relies on EU and foreign nationals who work in it. 10% of NHS staff are from the EU, whilst the general population is made up of only 5% EU nationals. You are more likely to be treated by an EU health professional than be behind one in a queue for treatment.
Furthermore, the EU has a major impact on public health through directives in food regulations, road safety, air pollution, tobacco control, and chemical hazards. Brexit would remove the obligation of the UK Government to implement European wide public health initiatives.
Another consequence of Brexit is the fact that UK travellers would lose their right to free or low cost healthcare in the EU, and the 2 million UK citizens who live permanently in other European countries would have their right to publicly funded healthcare threatened.
The EU is also major funder of research in the UK, with only Germany receiving more EU research funding than the UK. The UK's key role in a number of cross national research projects would be at risk according to senior members of the medical academic community writing in the British Medical Journal.
*
As a final point, just ask yourself this question. Will the NHS be safer under the stewardship of Brexiteers like Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage? They support more austerity and privatisation. Don't be fooled by their rhetoric. Do the right thing on June 23rd. Vote for protect your NHS, vote to remain.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

At this stage I don't have time to read swathes of information. I am preparing to cast my vote at 07:01am. Time for bed.

One last thing don't forget to:








*
For:*









*Make your vote count*


----------



## cheekyscrip

How ultraright Tories plus Farage are going to be good for NHS or any grass root people?

How British values can be pitched against. " European values"?

Like EU is against democracy and freedom? 
Or Britain is?
@stockwellcat I am totally confused?

How recession would provide jobs for anyone?

EU wants stronger Europe to keep Russia in check?

Is Britain going to join Putin?
Well..Farage shares the same values...

How isolation is patriotic?

If Leave wins there will be more violence and xenophobia.

More tension.

It may not end well at all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

> How recession would provide jobs for anyone?


 Like the last recession did. But we aren't heading into recession.



> EU wants stronger Europe to keep Russia in check?


 You're confused Nato keeps Russia in check not EU.



> Is Britain going to join Putin?


 Never in a million years. There is a world out there, China, Japan, Australia, Switzerland, Greenland, New Zealand, USA etc The world don't stop in Europe.


> Well..Farage shares the same values...


 I don't share values with this weasel.



> How isolation is patriotic?


 -Patriotic means a love and devotion for ones country not isolation.



> If Leave wins there will be more violence and xenophobia.


 - Scaremongering



> More tension


. - Scaremongering



> It may not end well at all.


How do you know this for sure. Please tell me.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Like the last recession did. But we aren't heading into recession.
> 
> You're confused Nato keeps Russia in check not EU.
> 
> Never in a million years. There is a world out there, China, Japan, Australia, Switzerland, Greenland, New Zealand, USA etc The world don't stop in Europe.
> I don't share values with this weasel.
> 
> -Patriotic means a love and devotion for ones country not isolation.
> 
> - Scaremongering
> 
> . - Scaremingering
> 
> How do you know this for sure. Please tell me.


I say it may...
Probability. It not sure...but very likely..

As to my knowledge...

Brexit will destroy Gibraltar and Falklands. But will do Britain no favours .. Just swapping some problems for others ...plus yes...that weasel Farage and his minions will #take control....

As recommended by " The Sun"....


----------



## kimthecat

@cheekyscrip The Falklands aren't in Europe. I'm not sure how they would be affected .


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
Ronnie [Ray-gun, former POTUS] & Maggie Thatcher were probly separated at birth -
they were both deeply indebted to corporate supporters, Ronnie was very pro-oil as well as pro-business; he slashed public funding for education, school lunch subsidies for kids in poverty, MedicAid for poor citizens, food stamps, & every other Govt social support EXCEPT the Ag subsidies, many of which go to non-farmers who just own massive holdings & plant no crops whatever. They get big chunks of tax-dollars for sitting on their real estates.
.
These big land-holders don't improve the watershed, plant game-feeding long-term species [nut trees for mast, berry bushes & small fruit for migratory & resident birds, native grains...], they don't restore the prairie or woodlands, they don't repair stream banks - they just squat, & collect a check for it.
When they're thru squatting & have milked as many years of tax-deductions & ag-subsidies as they wanted, they either sell it to another big squatter, or sell to a developer for a killing price - & the property is turned into a massive housing tract, or farmettes, or single "ranches", or 40 conjoined multi-million dollar homes on big acreage with a shared air-strip & off-the-grid solar or hydro-power.
.
Ronnie was also very big on De-Regulating - he was firmly of the opinion that Big-Biz was good for the USA, Big-Biz wouldn't do anything to hurt the economy or the citizenry, & what's good for Big-Biz is ultimately good for aMerika - because all those profits will "trickle down" & raise all the little rowboats at the same time that the rising tide of money lifts the container-ships & the ore-ships & the oil-tankers & coal-barges.
.
Ronnie's simple-minded adoration of de-regulating everything & everybody planted the seed of the 2008 global economic meltdown, because he deregulated the baking & securities industries - leaving the ethics of their business decisions to their own consciences, which weren't up to the task.
Persuading managers of big investment-funds to put good money on bad paper in bundled sub-prime mortgages in an over-inflated bubble market of housing stock, so that the investor took the risk & the banks made enormous profits, was merely the _coup de grace._
The derivatives market in particular was so complex & bizarre, no one who hadn't been part of designing it really understood how it worked. And when the whole house of cards collapsed, the big banks, investment firms, brokerages, etc, who'd *caused *this catastrophe, got a Federal bail-out, while poor Jane or Joe Public, who'd just lost the savings of a lifetime, the house over their heads, or their retirement fund, got,_ "Whoops! - sorry, but that's the market."_
Except that it wasn't "the market" - it was individuals & even entire companies, out to maximize their profit at the expense of anyone else. 'The market' had been rigged. 
.
Ronnie was also a strong proponent of free-market capitalism - despite growing up in the Great Depression, when his father, a door-to-door shoe salesman, had to leave them to work in a CCC camp, in order to feed & house his young family. Once Ron got into the Oval Office, he did his level best to gut social support programs - even tho they'd fed him as a kid, kept a roof over their heads, & meant they weren't sheltering mizrably under a bridge or camping in a derelict car, somewhere.
.
"The market" in the crash of '29 devastated the world economy, sent millions of able-bodied American adults onto breadlines, broke up families when fathers left to hunt for rumored work or mothers left to take the children & live with other relatives, & so on. Siblings were often split up, sent to multiple households as singletons.
Yet Ronnie, having seen all this destruction, deliberately removed the legal constraints put on the ethics-free market forces after that last catastrophic Crash, setting us up for another. It was a triumph of unreasoning faith over past evidence - & it had terrible consequences for the world.
.
De-regulating business & industry has resulted in horrifying pollution, the deliberate weakening of the Clean Air & Clean Water Acts of the 1970s, & currently, the deeply-entrenched resistance of fracking companies to revealing the ingredients in the toxic cocktails they force into the ground beneath our feet... after all, it's a 'trade secret' if they're shoving formaldehyde by the ton into the water table. :eyeroll
More likely, if the EPA knew what specific cr*p the various companies were introducing underground, they'd have a 'fingerprint' to charge specific companies with destroying the ground-water in communities where they've injected - & God knows, plausible deniability is cheaper than paying fines & legal costs, don'cha know.
.
De-regulating, IMO & IME, is a really *Bad Idea* - the only ppl who support it are industry shills & bought politicians.
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, stockwellcat:

...
I am voting leave because I believe in being called British, not European.
...

/QUOTE
.
.
Hunh?!...  ___ Has anyone recently told U that U're _*not *_British?
if so, who? - And why?
.
Also, FWIW, if U are British, or Scottish, Welsh, or Irish, U are *-also-* European - just as any person born in Spain, France, Portugal, Germany, Greece, et al, is European. Canadians are [North] Americans; Brazilians are [South] Americans; Costa Ricans are [Central] Americans.
Pretty much anyone not born on a Western Pacific atoll has a continental identity, as well as a national identity.
.
.
.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Happy Voting Everyone 

Whichever way the coin lands (and let's be honest with the info we've been given to vote on, I've a feeling this result is akin to flipping a coin) I am pretty sure we still have some more ructions to come as the politicians come to terms with how the result will effect them (not us btw).

Not another election for a while though please ...I'm not sure I could stand it 

J


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> how does Switzerland manage, oh they are richer now than they ever where in the EU.


To the best of my knowledge Switzerland has never been in the EU, besides they accept certain EU conditions such as free movement which isn't on the agenda with the Brexit camp here.

My grandparents were also in the war. I remember how worried my grandmother was over the 1975 referendum, recognising the contribution to peace. She remembered the war all right. Never wanted to experience anything like it again nor for future generations.

Some of the comments here have left me feeling very sad.

Oh yes, should Scotland vote Remain with the rest of the UK for leave they'll have every right to hold another independence referendum.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Maybe ,who knows.Which ever way you look at it,, D.C. and the Remain camp do just as much scaremongering, and lies.
> If you watched the debate on BBC 1 last night, the remain side said numerous times, that Turkey will not be joining the E.U. for decades.
> 
> Only time will tell, and by then it will be to late if the remain happen to win.


You may be right, except it won't be too late, because we can leave any any time. It is only a Leave vote today that is irrevocable.


----------



## Honeys mum

MollySmith said:


> Just thought it was time for this (I've been waiting for 57 pages)


Whether you agree with him or not (and I'm not saying that I do), let's not forget that he has been fighting for this referemdon since 2005. D.C. only promised it us before the last election, in order to help him get in.

Saw this last night, apperently it's the last speech N.F. made yesterday.

*NIGEL FARAGE'S SPEECH IN FULL

*

There are some people who think our best days are behind us.

They think we're too small, too weak, too worn down to hold our heads high and walk tall on the world stage.

They've lost faith in their country and they've lost faith in their own ability to make a success of it.

They think we're better off letting other people make our decisions for us.

They are wrong. We are a great country, a proud country, a brave country.

A country with an amazing history of entrepreneurialism, sporting greatness, and amazing science.

We are big enough to stand on our own two feet. We are strong enough to make our own mark on the world.

And we are brave enough to make our own decisions, live under our own laws, bear our own failures and forge our own success just like our friends in Australia and Canada and any other proper democracy anywhere else in the world.

Let's have peace, trade and honest friendship. Let's believe in ourselves and let's make June the 23rd independence day.


----------



## havoc

_Some of the comments here have left me feeling very sad. _
Not so many on here, elsewhere though, out in the real world I have been quite shocked at some people I know and thought I knew better. It has brought some very nasty traits to the fore in some.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> @cheekyscrip The Falklands aren't in Europe. I'm not sure how they would be affected .


The same as Gibraltar. Argentina would go for it. That is quite sure. Spain and Argentina always act together on this. 
We always stick together with Falklands.

So, yes, sure about that one.

Though it is not true Trump is the only politician from abroad who supports Brexit.

Putin does too.

So rest assured. What can go wrong...


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> I say it may...
> Probability. It not sure...but very likely..
> 
> As to my knowledge...
> 
> Brexit will destroy Gibraltar and Falklands. But will do Britain no favours .. Just swapping some problems for others ...plus yes...that weasel Farage and his minions will #take control....
> 
> As recommended by " The Sun"....


And don't forget Northern Ireland. Has anyone in the Brexit camp given a second thought to what the consequences of brexit would be on peace?

http://irishforeurope.org/share/



Honeys mum said:


> Whether you aagree with him or not (and I'm not saying that I do), let's not forget that he has been fighting for this referemdon since 2005. D.C. only promised it us before the last election, in order to help him get in.
> 
> Saw this last night, apperently it's the last speech N.F. made yesterday.
> 
> *NIGEL FARAGE'S SPEECH IN FULL
> 
> *
> 
> There are some people who think our best days are behind us.
> 
> They think we're too small, too weak, too worn down to hold our heads high and walk tall on the world stage.
> 
> They've lost faith in their country and they've lost faith in their own ability to make a success of it.
> 
> They think we're better off letting other people make our decisions for us.
> 
> They are wrong. We are a great country, a proud country, a brave country.
> 
> A country with an amazing history of entrepreneurialism, sporting greatness, and amazing science.
> 
> We are big enough to stand on our own two feet. We are strong enough to make our own mark on the world.
> 
> And we are brave enough to make our own decisions, live under our own laws, bear our own failures and forge our own success just like our friends in Australia and Canada and any other proper democracy anywhere else in the world.
> 
> Let's have peace, trade and honest friendship. Let's believe in ourselves and let's make June the 23rd independence day.


God Almighty. More nationalistic nonsense.

/


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> God Almighty. More nationalistic nonsense


Thankyou noushka05, but I believe we are all entitled to an opinion.


----------



## MollySmith

Honeys mum said:


> Whether you aagree with him or not (and I'm not saying that I do), let's not forget that he has been fighting for this referemdon since 2005. D.C. only promised it us before the last election, in order to help him get in.
> 
> Saw this last night, apperently it's the last speech N.F. made yesterday.
> 
> *NIGEL FARAGE'S SPEECH IN FULL
> 
> *
> 
> There are some people who think our best days are behind us.
> 
> They think we're too small, too weak, too worn down to hold our heads high and walk tall on the world stage.
> 
> They've lost faith in their country and they've lost faith in their own ability to make a success of it.
> 
> They think we're better off letting other people make our decisions for us.
> 
> They are wrong. We are a great country, a proud country, a brave country.
> 
> A country with an amazing history of entrepreneurialism, sporting greatness, and amazing science.
> 
> We are big enough to stand on our own two feet. We are strong enough to make our own mark on the world.
> 
> And we are brave enough to make our own decisions, live under our own laws, bear our own failures and forge our own success just like our friends in Australia and Canada and any other proper democracy anywhere else in the world.
> 
> Let's have peace, trade and honest friendship. Let's believe in ourselves and let's make June the 23rd independence day.


:Vomit I must have a better memory, I recall this gem. He claimed women with children were responsible for their own reduction in pay if they have children - because they take maternity leave and become less valuable to their businesses.

The man is a goat.


----------



## Honeys mum

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1064329840378943


----------



## MilleD

Happy voting everyone. 

Hope the decorum can be retained whichever way it goes.


----------



## MollySmith

Honeys mum said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1064329840378943


I can't bring myself to even click on a link that says Britain First.


----------



## noushka05

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> Ronnie [Ray-gun, former POTUS] & Maggie Thatcher were probly separated at birth -
> they were both deeply indebted to corporate supporters, Ronnie was very pro-oil as well as pro-business; he slashed public funding for education, school lunch subsidies for kids in poverty, MedicAid for poor citizens, food stamps, & every other Govt social support EXCEPT the Ag subsidies, many of which go to non-farmers who just own massive holdings & plant no crops whatever. They get big chunks of tax-dollars for sitting on their real estates.
> .
> These big land-holders don't improve the watershed, plant game-feeding long-term species [nut trees for mast, berry bushes & small fruit for migratory & resident birds, native grains...], they don't restore the prairie or woodlands, they don't repair stream banks - they just squat, & collect a check for it.
> When they're thru squatting & have milked as many years of tax-deductions & ag-subsidies as they wanted, they either sell it to another big squatter, or sell to a developer for a killing price - & the property is turned into a massive housing tract, or farmettes, or single "ranches", or 40 conjoined multi-million dollar homes on big acreage with a shared air-strip & off-the-grid solar or hydro-power.
> .
> Ronnie was also very big on De-Regulating - he was firmly of the opinion that Big-Biz was good for the USA, Big-Biz wouldn't do anything to hurt the economy or the citizenry, & what's good for Big-Biz is ultimately good for aMerika - because all those profits will "trickle down" & raise all the little rowboats at the same time that the rising tide of money lifts the container-ships & the ore-ships & the oil-tankers & coal-barges.
> .
> Ronnie's simple-minded adoration of de-regulating everything & everybody planted the seed of the 2008 global economic meltdown, because he deregulated the baking & securities industries - leaving the ethics of their business decisions to their own consciences, which weren't up to the task.
> Persuading managers of big investment-funds to put good money on bad paper in bundled sub-prime mortgages in an over-inflated bubble market of housing stock, so that the investor took the risk & the banks made enormous profits, was merely the _coup de grace._
> The derivatives market in particular was so complex & bizarre, no one who hadn't been part of designing it really understood how it worked. And when the whole house of cards collapsed, the big banks, investment firms, brokerages, etc, who'd *caused *this catastrophe, got a Federal bail-out, while poor Jane or Joe Public, who'd just lost the savings of a lifetime, the house over their heads, or their retirement fund, got,_ "Whoops! - sorry, but that's the market."_
> Except that it wasn't "the market" - it was individuals & even entire companies, out to maximize their profit at the expense of anyone else. 'The market' had been rigged.
> .
> Ronnie was also a strong proponent of free-market capitalism - despite growing up in the Great Depression, when his father, a door-to-door shoe salesman, had to leave them to work in a CCC camp, in order to feed & house his young family. Once Ron got into the Oval Office, he did his level best to gut social support programs - even tho they'd fed him as a kid, kept a roof over their heads, & meant they weren't sheltering mizrably under a bridge or camping in a derelict car, somewhere.
> .
> "The market" in the crash of '29 devastated the world economy, sent millions of able-bodied American adults onto breadlines, broke up families when fathers left to hunt for rumored work or mothers left to take the children & live with other relatives, & so on. Siblings were often split up, sent to multiple households as singletons.
> Yet Ronnie, having seen all this destruction, deliberately removed the legal constraints put on the ethics-free market forces after that last catastrophic Crash, setting us up for another. It was a triumph of unreasoning faith over past evidence - & it had terrible consequences for the world.
> .
> De-regulating business & industry has resulted in horrifying pollution, the deliberate weakening of the Clean Air & Clean Water Acts of the 1970s, & currently, the deeply-entrenched resistance of fracking companies to revealing the ingredients in the toxic cocktails they force into the ground beneath our feet... after all, it's a 'trade secret' if they're shoving formaldehyde by the ton into the water table. :eyeroll
> More likely, if the EPA knew what specific cr*p the various companies were introducing underground, they'd have a 'fingerprint' to charge specific companies with destroying the ground-water in communities where they've injected - & God knows, plausible deniability is cheaper than paying fines & legal costs, don'cha know.
> .
> De-regulating, IMO & IME, is a really *Bad Idea* - the only ppl who support it are industry shills & bought politicians.
> .
> .
> .


These two gave us the politics of greed. Yet ordinary people still support neocons. I've never been able to fathom why so many vote against their own best interests - & the best interests of our living world. It makes no sense to me.



Honeys mum said:


> Thankyou noushka05, but I believe we are all entitled to an opinion.


Of course we are HM  And that was my opinion on that frauds words. All Farage has got to offer is xenophobic nationalism along with his bogus & dishonest promises.



Honeys mum said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1064329840378943


Britain First. Wow, now that is scraping the bottom of the barrel. They are openly far right fascists. As dangerous as any terrorist organisation. God help us if this is what ordinary people are sharing.


----------



## havoc

_I can't bring myself to even click on a link that says Britain First._
Well I could because I am interested in the opinion of others. Didn't get far though as it calls on people to mobilise to save our country. Strange choice of language - you'd think we were gearing up for war.


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> And then this too:
> 
> http://capx.co/eu-officials-all-at-sea-over-ports-legislation/
> 
> It is becomming more and more clear that the UK is considered to be an EU Cash Cow with very few benefits in return.


Dan Hannan is not to be trusted MB. INFACTS have debunked this spin on ports -
http://infacts.org/hannans-post-remain-eu-bombshells-duds/

@Honeys mum Tory Dan Hannan is on that Britain First video (scarily shows how much in common they have)- this is what he thinks of our NHS. Now hes saying its safe in their hands. Every one of those brexit tories has voted to undermine it & privisatise it - every one! It wont last 2 minutes if they get their hands on it.


----------



## kimthecat

I had a quick peak , I was interested in the comments below the video , not as bad as I thought they would be.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> The Tories will be out next election and I would hope that Labour would be willing to look at a law change.
> 
> This seems to suggest that the Eu could block any change of UK law that would stop exports
> 
> http://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/live-animal-transport/uk-live-exports/
> 
> *"We need a change in the law*
> The Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act (1847) states that all ports must allow the free trade of 'goods', including farm animals. So, by law British public ports must allow lorries full of animals to pass through, even if the port authority doesn't agree with the trade. It's about time this law was updated so that ports can legally refuse consignments of live, sentient, animals without fear of legal repercussions.
> 
> The amendments we're calling for are not unreasonable. And if the UK does get challenged by the EU the Government should do the right thing and stand up for the animals facing export. The Government should take the case to the European Courts if necessary."
> 
> The EU law says that journeys must be limited to 8 hours , most journeys to parts of Europe are more than that . Even if the lorry isn't travelling , they must still have to stay in it until they reach their destination .


I was having a similar debate with another pro brexiteer lol And I said if we leave banning live exports wouldn't be that simple because of the WTO. CIWFs Philip Lymberry responded to my tweet and agreed with me - it wouldn't be that simple. He sent me that literature on brexit.


----------



## MoggyBaby

noushka05 said:


> God Almighty. More nationalistic nonsense.
> 
> /


Why, why WHY is being proud of your country or nation such a bad thing??? Why is believing in your nations ability to be something better so awful?

Maybe if more people DID believe in the UK, and what it could achieve, the country would be in a much better place instead of the demoralised hell-hole it is turning into!



MollySmith said:


> :Vomit I must have a better memory, I recall this gem. He claimed women with children were responsible for their own reduction in pay if they have children - because they take maternity leave and become less valuable to their businesses.
> 
> The man is a goat.


If Vote Leave are successful, Farage become surplus to requirements so his views on such matters remain irrelevent.


----------



## kimthecat

MoggyBaby said:


> Why, why WHY is being proud of your country or nation such a bad thing??? Why is believing in your nations ability to be something better so awful?
> Maybe if more people DID believe in the UK, and what it could acheive, the country would be in a much better place instead of the demoralised hell-hole it is turning into!


 Exactly. Other EU countries are proud of their country why can't we be. What have we done to ourselves!


----------



## Colliebarmy

The poll here on PF isnt right

Voting cards have only STAY or LEAVE

no dithering, no ifs/buts/maybes.....in or out


----------



## DoodlesRule

Just done my own exit poll at work 

........................ thought I had better remove this - apparently its illegal to publish the way people have voted (including on social media) before 10 pm, Section 66 Representation of the People Act 1983!


----------



## havoc

_The 1 Remainer is rich_
I've found the opposite. It's the rich landowners round me who want out. I did ask one if it wouldn't limit the workforce as they do use a lot of Eastern Europeans but he said he'd still be able to ship gangs in like he used to and wouldn't be constrained the same as now.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have two questions for the remain voters.


How are the remain campaigners going o react if the UK does vote to leave? Are they going to accept defeat?


----------



## havoc

_Are you going to eat your words if the UK does vote to leave and for not believing in that our country cannot stand on its own?_
Back up a minute. That's a very aggressive comment. Nobody has said the UK can't stand on it's own. The decision people are making is based on whether they believe it stands better in or out of the EU. There's no right or wrong answer and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


----------



## MollySmith

MoggyBaby said:


> Why, why WHY is being proud of your country or nation such a bad thing??? Why is believing in your nations ability to be something better so awful?
> 
> Maybe if more people DID believe in the UK, and what it could acheive, the country would be in a much better place instead of the demoralised hell-hole it is turning into!
> 
> If Vote Leave are successful, Farage become surplus to requirements so his views on such matters remain irrelevent.


His views might become irrelevant in context of a new set up, but they reflect a rather backwards facing opinion on many subjects including women's rights and immigration that are sadly believed by some.

Him spouting on about how great Britain doesn't make me feel at all proud to be British. It makes me rather sick. Shelia Hancock on Ch4 last night was far more worthy of airtime.

Edited to say that I have nothing against being proud of the UK but when Farage says this, it comes with an undercurrent of racism that has only been brought upon himself by his own words and actions.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> _Are you going to eat your words if the UK does vote to leave and for not believing in that our country cannot stand on its own?_
> Back up a minute. That's a very aggressive comment. Nobody has said the UK can't stand on it's own. The decision people are making is based on whether they believe it stands better in or out of the EU. There's no right or wrong answer and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


Ok I apologise if that was aggressive. I'll amend it.


----------



## Lurcherlad

havoc said:


> _The 1 Remainer is rich_
> I've found the opposite. It's the rich landowners round me who want out. I did ask one if it wouldn't limit the workforce as they do use a lot of Eastern Europeans but he said he'd still be able to ship gangs in like he used to and wouldn't be constrained the same as now.


Maybe the slack could be picked up by healthy, fit British people on Jobseekers Allowance? Not full time, but maybe 16 hours a week, which other claimants have to do to continue to qualify for their benefits?

Seems fair when many people are working 40+ hours a week to support themselves?


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat said:


> I just have one question for those that have negatively commented on everything the leave voters have said.
> 
> Are you going to apologise for all the insults that have been made towards the leave voters and all the negative speel you have cast over the leave voters if the UK does vote to leave and for not believing in that our country cannot stand on its own?


No. And I don't expect the Leave campaigners to apologise if we Remain. Why should they?

When I write about debates and arguments in academic papers, I don't apologise to both sides at the end of the essay. The argument isn't personal but taking the facts and analysing them, and making a case. It's not about individual people.


----------



## Lurcherlad

stockwellcat said:


> I just have two question for those that have negatively commented on everything the leave voters have said.


Who cares, really?

I don't! Skin like a Rhino!


----------



## havoc

_Maybe the slack could be picked up by healthy, fit British people on Jobseekers Allowance?_
I'm not sure how the work programme functions but I don't think employers can register seasonal work. I guess that could be changed though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat said:


> Ok I apologise if that was aggressive. I'll amend it.


Changed the post.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Lurcherlad said:


> Who cares, really?
> 
> *I don't! Skin like a Rhino!*


Face like one too if the rumours are to be believed!!!!


----------



## Honeys mum

MoggyBaby said:


> Why, why WHY is being proud of your country or nation such a bad thing??? Why is believing in your nations ability to be something better so awful?
> 
> Maybe if more people DID believe in the UK, and what it could achieve, the country would be in a much better place instead of the demoralised hell-hole it is turning into!


Well said MoggyBaby. We are just off to vote Leave now, and proud of it.


----------



## havoc

_Exactly. Other EU countries are proud of their country why can't we be. What have we done to ourselves!_
Well if the country votes leave we'll have nobody to blame but ourselves for things not being perfect - either way it can't be a perfect world and we Brits do love to moan.


----------



## Lurcherlad

MoggyBaby said:


> Face like one too if the rumours are to be believed!!!!


You're not wrong! 

Really starting to show my age - try to avoid mirrors if I can!


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> _Maybe the slack could be picked up by healthy, fit British people on Jobseekers Allowance?_
> I'm not sure how the work programme functions but I don't think employers can register seasonal work. I guess that could be changed though.


I think a lot of firms use people on Job seekers , a major shoe shop near me , the majority of the staff are jobseekers who each work a few hours a week but they never offer them permanent jobs. It is good experience and something they can get a reference for but I think its take advantage and saves the firm having to pay sick pay or holiday pay.


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> I think a lot of firms use people on Job seekers , a major shoe shop near me , the majority of the staff are jobseekers who each work a few hours a week but they never offer them permanent jobs. It is good experience and something they can get a reference for but I think its take advantage and saves the form having to pay sick pay or holiday pay.


But they do that now with zero hours contracts, don't they?

There are a number of ways of improving the "system" to the benefit of everyone, in my opinion.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Lurcherlad said:


> But they do that now with zero hours contracts, don't they?
> 
> There are a number of ways of improving the "system" to the benefit of everyone, in my opinion.


Well, if the remain scaremongering is to be believed, if Brexit win we'll be kicking out all non-UK citizens by 4pm tomorrow afternoon so there will be plenty of job vacancies to be filled. Zero contracts will be a thing of the past because the supply & demand requirement means workers will have the upper hand on the employers and will be able to request proper wages!


----------



## kimthecat

perhaps they can live with Bob Geldof , he has enough houses.


----------



## Honeys mum

EU referendum: After Jean-Claude Juncker rules out reform, seven Brussels pledges PM broke | Politics | News | Daily Express


----------



## stockwellcat.

I went to the shops just now and got hounded by vote remain campaigners one of whom was getting excited over a bunch of stickers. This little girl went up to one of the campaigners and said "my mummy and daddy are voting out" the look on the campaigners face was a picture


----------



## Jesthar

MoggyBaby said:


> Why, why WHY is being proud of your country or nation such a bad thing??? Why is believing in your nations ability to be something better so awful?
> 
> Maybe if more people DID believe in the UK, and what it could achieve, the country would be in a much better place instead of the demoralised hell-hole it is turning into!





kimthecat said:


> Exactly. Other EU countries are proud of their country why can't we be. What have we done to ourselves!


See, THIS is what I don't get - where did all the negativity and the belief that because of being in Europe you aren't allowed to be proud of your nationality come from? If that were the case, then surely other EU countries wouldn't be proud of their national identity either - and they obviously are! And we've been (and will remain) a part of the European continent since before the time of the dinosaurs - that's a matter of geography, not politics. Therefore logically the viewpoint has to be internally generated.

Now, don't get me wrong - the whole 'Fings Ain't Wot They Used Ta Be' feeling is something I've felt too. I think every generation in every country at any point in history does. But when you stop and think about _why_, the arguments of the Leave campaign (which basically seem to boil down to "it's all Europe's fault!" judging by every leaflets the local zealots have been pushing through my door) just don't add up. Or even check out as true facts and figures, when you actually start digging - go through an average Vote Leave leaflet with a pair of scissors and cut out the items that are either emotional political spin with no factual base, are a misrepresentation of the truth, or are outright falsehoods, and you have one very lacy doily with hardly any words left.

Not that the Remain campaign has been a paragon of factual clarity or immune to emotional manipulation, either. But they have been doing rather better percentage wise in supporting their claims with some actual evidence, which for a geek like me is a lot more important than flag waving posturing.

And as for migration snuffing out our 'National Identity' - for goodness sake, our whole history is one of conquest, re-conquest and economic imigration - both militarily and in trade. We're basically a patchwork of most of the known world from any point in history, and being that open to new peoples and their knowledge and skillsets has worked very much in our favour. Right now, migrants play a huge role in making the NHS work (and if you believe the money that goes to the EU would actually be spent on the NHS, can I have some of what you are smoking please?) and are also the backbone of the service industries and any other job groups which are regarded as less desireable.

So I suppose my core reaction to both side playing the 'Great' Britain card is - why does that depend on being in or out Europe? Whether we leave or remain, being great depends on what we do as a people. Does Europe stop us being Great? Not that I can see. Will remaining in Europe make us Great? Not that I can see. Will leaving Europe make us Great? Not that I can see. making/Keeping Britain great (depending on where you thing we are starting from) mainly depends on the British people deciding enough is enough of the cycle of negativity and deciding to get together as a community to do things that benefit the community (either local or national) at whatever level and to whatever capacity we each can. 

I suppose I should note I haven't voted yet and I'm still not sure if I will. I hate politics! The only certainty is that I won't vote Leave, as I value truth above all things, and I can't bring myself to vote for an option where every element of the campaign I have so far encountered has turned out to be a lie.


----------



## Calvine

I cannot believe how casual some people are about the whole thing. Today I went off to vote. A couple of guys were walking quite closely behind me and one of them said they were following me as I looked as tho' I knew where I was going. Started talking to them and one of them actually said as we went into the grounds of the polling station, ''You know what, I still haven't decided which side to vote for''. I had to wonder what exactly he was doing there.


----------



## kimthecat

> noushka05 said: ↑
> God Almighty. More nationalistic nonsense.





> MoggyBaby said: ↑
> Why, why WHY is being proud of your country or nation such a bad thing??? Why is believing in your nations ability to be something better so awful?
> 
> Maybe if more people DID believe in the UK, and what it could achieve, the country would be in a much better place instead of the demoralised hell-hole it is turning into!





> kimthecat said: ↑
> Exactly. Other EU countries are proud of their country why can't we be. What have we done to ourselves!





Jesthar said:


> See, THIS is what I don't get - where did all the negativity and the belief that because of being in Europe you aren't allowed to be proud of your nationality come from? If that were the case, then surely other EU countries wouldn't be proud of their national identity either - and they obviously are!


I'm not blaming Europe Our replies were in response to Noushkas post above , she is British. Its some of the British, Lefties and the PC brigade that cause these feelings of not being proud and not believing in ourselves . Flying flags , especially the English flag is seen as racist , ( except at football times )


----------



## MoggyBaby

Calvine said:


> I cannot believe how casual some people are about the whole thing. Today I went off to vote. A couple of guys were walking quite closely behind me and one of them said they were following me as I looked as tho' I knew where I was going. Started talking to them and one of them actually said as we went into the grounds of the polling station, ''You know what, I still haven't decided which side to vote for''. I had to wonder what exactly he was doing there.


This probably comes from the mind-set of "It doesn't matter who I vote for, the other side always win!"


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> I cannot believe how casual some people are about the whole thing. Today I went off to vote. A couple of guys were walking quite closely behind me and one of them said they were following me as I looked as tho' I knew where I was going. Started talking to them and one of them actually said as we went into the grounds of the polling station, ''You know what, I still haven't decided which side to vote for''. I had to wonder what exactly he was doing there.


I haven't completely made up my mind. I think I'll vote out but for selfish reasons I should be voting in............doesn't mean I haven't listened to both sides, looked at facts etc.
Many are voting on things as shallow as ease of holiday travel.................they are sure.......mines about my future finance......I'm not sure..........who's more worthy of voting?


----------



## Kyria

Im voting out. Fed up of all the lies David Cameron has been spouting and all the fear mongering. We are better off on our own.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I cannot believe how casual some people are about the whole thing. Today I went off to vote. A couple of guys were walking quite closely behind me and one of them said they were following me as I looked as tho' I knew where I was going. Started talking to them and one of them actually said as we went into the grounds of the polling station, ''You know what, I still haven't decided which side to vote for''. I had to wonder what exactly he was doing there.


Being confused is not the same as being casual . He might not be casual about it, he could have given it a great deal of though but all the lies and arguing from parties is confusing . My neighbour said the same , she reading stuff and watching the debates, she still wants to vote its her right to vote.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> I'm not blaming Europe Our replies were in response to Noushkas post above , she is British. Its some of the British, Lefties and the PC brigade that cause these feelings of not being proud and not believing in ourselves . Flying flags , especially the English flag is seen as racist , ( except at football times )


I didn't say you were  It just kicked off my own thought processes, and a lot of people do view it as being Europes fault without beuing able to say why. 



rona said:


> I haven't completely made up my mind. I think I'll vote out but for selfish reasons I should be voting in............doesn't mean I haven't listened to both sides, looked at facts etc.
> Many are voting on things as shallow as ease of holiday travel.................they are sure.......mines about my future finance......I'm not sure..........who's more worthy of voting?


Everyone is worthy of voting. if I do vote, my decision will have been made by which side have told the _most _lies and done the _most _scaremongering (the Leave campaign by some margin). Hardly the most in depth analysis going, but as I value truth above all, it will do for me and rules out voting Leave


----------



## rona

http://www.chemtrust.org.uk/tag/ttip/

http://corporateeurope.org/sites/de...tion_and_regulatory_cooperation_in_ttip_0.pdf

This type of thing may sway me


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> Why, why WHY is being proud of your country or nation such a bad thing??? Why is believing in your nations ability to be something better so awful?
> 
> Maybe if more people DID believe in the UK, and what it could achieve, the country would be in a much better place instead of the demoralised hell-hole it is turning into!
> 
> If Vote Leave are successful, Farage become surplus to requirements so his views on such matters remain irrelevent.


It isn't. Our country has done plenty of things for us to be proud of. It always fought against nationalism, bigotry & racism. It defeated right wing nationalism in 1945 I'm proud of that. But just like Trump over in the states, UKIP, Farage & the far right tories are stoking the fires of nationalism here. They are making me feel ashamed and horrified about the direction our country is taking. We're losing our empathy and compassion.

Believing in the UK won't stop tory austerity - the government will continue to shrink the state. And if we brexit cuts will only be ramped up. Nationalism doesn't solve anything - it lets the culprits off the hook. And it breeds hatred & resentment. Austerity fuels nationalism. We're being distracted to where the real problems in this county lie.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I didn't say you were  It just kicked off my own thought processes, and a lot of people do view it as being Europes fault without beuing able to say why.


 So I read through your really long post for nothing


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> the arguments of the Leave campaign (which basically seem to boil down to "it's all Europe's fault!" judging by every leaflets the local zealots have been pushing through my door) just don't add up


Are they only 'zealots' if they support Leave?


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> Are they only 'zealots' if they support Leave?


Nope. I've just had several thousand percent more 'Leave' literature through the door than 'Remain', and drive past a number of gardens festooned with 'Leave' banners and placards every day, versus no Remain.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Are they only 'zealots' if they support Leave?


No, but all the far right zealots support brexit.


----------



## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> Nope. I've just had several thousand percent more 'Leave' literature through the door than 'Remain', and drive past a number of gardens festooned with 'Leave' banners and placards every day, versus no Remain.


It's the reverse here, I've not had one leave leaflet though my door. My two mile cycle ride to work and back hasn't revealed any Leave publicity, it's all Remain. I guess there must be pockets of exclusively each in the country so I guess it will be very close to call.


----------



## Satori

As far as the markets are concerned it is all over. 84% chance of remain is what is priced in. We will not be getting exit polls because public mms has not stepped up to the mark. However, investment bankers and hedge fund managers have commissioned private exit polls and they are totally convinced that the vote will be for 'remain'.

If we do vote to leave there will be a lot of wealthy bankers taking a bath. Fingers crossed. Here's the pound today..


----------



## MoggyBaby

So all the talk about Europe turning its back on the UK if we leave is yet more scaremongering twaddle.

Most of Europe want out of the EU too!!!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-how-france-italy-and-the-netherlands-now-wa/


----------



## DoodlesRule

Satori said:


> As far as the markets are concerned it is all over. 84% chance of remain is what is priced in. *We will not be getting exit polls because public mms has not stepped up to the mark*. However, investment bankers and hedge fund managers have commissioned private exit polls and they are totally convinced that the vote will be for 'remain'.
> 
> If we do vote to leave there will be a lot of wealthy bankers taking a bath. Fingers crossed. Here's the pound today..
> 
> View attachment 275115


Have just been reading about exit polls - apparently how they work is they literally ask X number of voters as they leave polling stations in sample areas and compare to previous voting results. There are no previous referendum result to make any comparisons to it would be expensive to try to do and they would have no idea on accuracy so decided therefore not to bother.

Re the bankers etc - they are conducting their own polls to try and second guess the results, if they got it right they can make a killing on buying/selling sterling (so I read!)


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> As far as the markets are concerned it is all over. 84% chance of remain is what is priced in. We will not be getting exit polls because public mms has not stepped up to the mark. However, investment bankers and hedge fund managers have commissioned private exit polls and they are totally convinced that the vote will be for 'remain'.
> 
> If we do vote to leave there will be a lot of wealthy bankers taking a bath. Fingers crossed. Here's the pound today..
> 
> View attachment 275115


I am going off the perforum polls which suggests we are already on the way to leave. Just look at the results so far:
82 votes definitely out
60 votes definitely in
In the other poll being run on here leave are ahead as well:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/vote-now.429186/

Exit polls are looking really good for the out/leave voters on petforums. 

Let's hope when the first poll results come through on the news the vote leave campaign is ahead and they win.


----------



## Royoyo

I voted out...... :Woot


----------



## MoggyBaby

Royoyo said:


> I voted out...... :Woot


Geez!!! You're such a rebel.......


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just under 5 hours of voting left.


----------



## MilleD

If anyone is still undecided.

Very simplistic and slightly different to other one I've seen.

https://eudecision.uk/


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> If anyone is still undecided.
> 
> Very simplistic and slightly different to other one I've seen.
> 
> https://eudecision.uk/


Very simplistic not to mention VERY biased

This is very crafty (well not really) pro leave propaganda trying to appear neutral.

The questions are loaded to favour brexit - but here is the conclusive proof - they are blatantly parroting brexit LIES on here. https://journolink.com/blog/149-4-reasons-to-vote-in-amp-4-reasons-to-vote-out---y

For example -
_
To Take Back Control of Our Money

The EU costs us at least £350 million a week. We get less than half of this money back, and we have no control over how it's spent.If we vote to leave the EU we will be able to control where this money is spent. It could, as suggested, be spent on our NHS, but the fact of the matter is that it would be decided by British voters.
_
And the truth - http://infacts.org/vote-leave-lying-saying-send-eu-350-million-week/






Darren Staples/Reuters
*Why Vote Leave's use of £350m figure is a lie*
by Sam Ashworth-Hayes | 27.05.2016
The claim that we send £350 million a week to Brussels isn't just false. Vote Leave must by now know it's false. Peddling the untruth after respected voices - including today the chair of theUK Statistics Authority and the Treasury Select Committee - have highlighted the error is dishonest.

In its broadcast ads and on the side of the battle bus ferrying Boris Johnson around the country, Vote Leave says we "send" £350 million a week to the EU. This is not true. The £350 million figure doesn't account for the discount that Margaret Thatcher, a hero to so many eurosceptics, won for Britain. This discount - the so-called rebate - is never sent to Brussels.

There are things that Vote Leave could legitimately say about £350 million a week. It could, for example, call it our hypothetical or notional contribution. But it is a mistake to say we "send" it to Brussels.

Vote Leave must know this. InFacts has repeatedly pointed out that we do not send the rebateto Brussels. We have been explaining this to Vote Leave since February. We have also set out clearly here what we do send and how much of that comes back to the UK - as well as explaining how there would be no saving at all if we quit the EU because the economy would take a hit.

The Chair of the UKSA, Andrew Dilnot, warned Vote Leave in April that its use of the £350 million figure is "potentially misleading".

The Office for National Statistics, following pressure from InFacts, published a release on May 25 saying: "This amount of money was never actually transferred to the EU. Before the UK government transfers any money to the EU a rebate is applied".

The Institute for Fiscal Studies on May 25 said the £350 million figure "is equivalent to suggesting that were the UK to leave the EU and not make any financial contribution to the EU's budget then remaining EU members would continue to pay the rebate to the UK", which is "clearly absurd".

BBC Reality Check wrote in April: "We've said it before and we'll say it again - the UK does not send £350m a week to Brussels - the rebate is deducted before the money is sent".

Full Fact, the fact-checking website, had previously provided some intellectual cover for Vote Leave by saying "it's reasonable to describe £55 million as our 'membership fee'" - Brexiteers sometimes talk about £50 million or £55 million a day rather than £350 million pounds a week. After InFacts pointed out errors in its calculation in February, Full Fact corrected its piece. In April, it went further, saying Vote Leave's claim that "we send £350 million to Brussels every week….is not a fact".

Dilnot today put out a statement saying: "The UK Statistics Authority is disappointed to note that there continue to be suggestions that the UK contributes £350 million to the EU each week… As we have made clear, the UK's contribution to the EU is paid after the application of the rebate".

Dilnot also wrote today to Dominic Cummings, Vote Leave's campaign director, saying: "As I have made clear previously, this is not an amount of money that the UK pays to the EU each year".

The Treasury Select Committee, in a report published today, said £350 million "is not 'sent' to Brussels in the first place".

The committee added: "Vote Leave has subsequently placed the £350m figure on its campaign bus, and on much of its recent campaign literature. The public should discount this claim. Vote Leave's persistence with it is deeply problematic. It sits very awkwardly with its promises to the Electoral Commission to work in a spirit that reflects its 'very significant responsibility' and the 'gravity of the choice facing the British people'."

It is not credible that Vote Leave is making an honest mistake. It is telling a lie. The public should punish it accordingly.


----------



## kimthecat

I've just realised I don't know who my MEP is .

This thread is 61 pages long so far , by the time it finishes , I bet it will be the longest thread ever on Petforums


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> I've just realised I don't know who my MEP is .
> 
> This thread is 61 pages long so far , by the time it finishes , I bet it will be the longest thread ever on Petforums


I doubt it
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/the-naughty-step-bar-and-club-open-24-7-free-drinks.9234/


----------



## kimthecat

@rona. Blimey , shall we revive it ? :Jawdrop


----------



## Lilylass

kimthecat said:


> I've just realised I don't know who my MEP is .


Nope, neither do I - which just shows how much impact they've made here!

I think a lot of people will vote in because they're scared of change .....


----------



## MoggyBaby

Lilylass said:


> Nope, neither do I - which just shows how much impact they've made here!
> 
> I think a lot of people will vote in because they're scared of change .....


Spend most of their lives complaining about how sh*t everything is but too scared to change it because 'better the devil you know'....


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> @rona. Blimey , shall we revive it ? :Jawdrop


You can try but I don't think the dynamics of the forum are the same these days


----------



## kimthecat

Lilylass said:


> Nope, neither do I - which just shows how much impact they've made here!
> 
> I think a lot of people will vote in because they're scared of change .....


I'm still not sure who it is . I looked it up on the European parliament uk website and went to london Area , there are 8 for London but it doesnt say who is for west london .


----------



## Lilylass

kimthecat said:


> I'm still not sure who it is . I looked it up on the European parliament uk website and went to london Area , there are 8 for London but it doesnt say who is for west london .


Just looked mine up out of curiosity - 6 for the whole of Scotland ..... (wonder why Nicola is so keen to stay then!) and I've never heard of any of them!


----------



## kimthecat

@Lilylass That's not very many . I'm surprised there is so few.


----------



## Jesthar

MoggyBaby said:


> Spend most of their lives complaining about how sh*t everything is but too scared to change it because 'better the devil you know'....


Or maybe they just don't think that _Europe_ is the problem...


----------



## Blackadder

I decided to stay right out of this one, I abstained.


----------



## MollySmith

Lilylass said:


> Nope, neither do I - which just shows how much impact they've made here!
> 
> I think a lot of people will vote in because they're scared of change .....





MoggyBaby said:


> Spend most of their lives complaining about how sh*t everything is but too scared to change it because 'better the devil you know'....


Our MEP is Richard Howitt, I often see him on the train (and doing his bit to sort out the awful train service) and the one in my parents village is supporting a historical research project that the community are engaged in. She lives in their village and although not a party I support, I give her credit for engagement.

This sums it up.

- Until fairly recently I was strongly in favour of holding a referendum on leaving the EU, largely because it had become such a toxic political issue that it needed a genuine mandate from the people. Added to that I am strongly sceptical about the EU, largely because of the democratic deficit, because of the craziness of the CAP and the fishing policy, because of its neo-liberal underpinning.

However, I now realise that I was wrong wrong wrong. What has become crystal clear from this referendum is that our adversarial political system is totally unsuited to any kind of complex popular decision making, and that the campaign has muddied that process rather than clarifying.

Both sides have deliberately lied, exaggerated and obfuscated. To make matters worse, a faction of one side has stirred up a toxic mud of xenophobia. The result - a host of decisions being taken up and down the country based on uncorrected false premises and misunderstandings.

I cannot help thinking that this sort of campaign was inevitable from the start, because that sort of political behaviour is built into the structure of our politics. Just look at the childish antics of PMQs. Look at the total inability of either side to recognise the opposition's good points, which are then stolen when it is politically expedient.

This is at a time when trust in our politicians is at an all-time low. This referendum has, I believe, even more tarnished our democracy. The verdict of history will be scathing.

I still have the same very strong concerns about the EU, but I felt that the dangers of a far right government leading our exit negotiations were just too great, so I voted to Remain. -

Just as you've both voted Leave based on what you know. Please don't be so insulting - I expected better from both of you. Remain voters engage in politics just as much as the Leave voters have.

This entire process really has made me see General Chat and PF in a new light. I had thought it was an inclusive space and much improved but mostly I'm disappointed and that won't change whatever the outcome tomorrow. Doubtless it will become a childish playground again of who was right and wrong, littered with locked threads.


----------



## Guest

In. Been tonight actually with mum and she explained it to me. Then on the way out mum said in front of the lady and the man your very first tine voting and the man said congratulations.


----------



## emmaviolet

MoggyBaby said:


> Spend most of their lives complaining about how sh*t everything is but too scared to change it because 'better the devil you know'....


In all honesty, sometimes it is better the devil you know.

I'm not scared of change, I would love some change, just not the change on offer with a far right conservative party who is in total control.


----------



## Milliepoochie

MollySmith said:


> Our MEP is Richard Howitt, I often see him on the train (and doing his bit to sort out the awful train service) and the one in my parents village is supporting a historical research project that the community are engaged in. She lives in their village and although not a party I support, I give her credit for engagement.
> 
> Until fairly recently I was strongly in favour of holding a referendum on leaving the EU, largely because it had become such a toxic political issue that it needed a genuine mandate from the people. Added to that I am strongly sceptical about the EU, largely because of the democratic deficit, because of the craziness of the CAP and the fishing policy, because of its neo-liberal underpinning.
> 
> However, I now realise that I was wrong wrong wrong. What has become crystal clear from this referendum is that our adversarial political system is totally unsuited to any kind of complex popular decision making, and that the campaign has muddied that process rather than clarifying.
> 
> Both sides have deliberately lied, exaggerated and obfuscated. To make matters worse, a faction of one side has stirred up a toxic mud of xenophobia. The result - a host of decisions being taken up and down the country based on uncorrected false premises and misunderstandings.
> 
> I can not help thinking that this sort of campaign was inevitable from the start, because that sort of political behaviour is built into the structure of our politics. Just look at the childish, antics of PMQs. Look at the total inability of either side to recognise the opposition's good points, which are then stolen when it is politically expedient.
> 
> This is at a time when trust in our politicians is at an all-time low. This referendum has, I believe, even more tarnished our democracy. The verdict of history will be scathing.
> 
> I still have the same very strong concerns about the EU, but I felt that the dangers of a far right government leading our exit negotiations were just too great, so I voted to Remain. Just as you've both voted Leave based on what you know. Please don't be so insulting. Remain voters engage in politics just as much as the Leave voters have.
> 
> This entire process really has made me see General Chat and PF in a new light. I had thought it was an inclusive space and much improved but mostly I'm disappointed and that won't change whatever the outcome tomorrow. Doubtless it will become a childish playground again of who was right and wrong, littered with locked threads.


Excellent post Mollysmith.

Personally I don't think the EU is perfect far from it. BUT I don't think the EU is the cause of a lot of the now ingrained problems the UK finds.

I also couldn't personally vote for a group represented by a man who says he feels uncomfortable on trains when people speak another language (Remember his wife is a German native) and who thinks breastfeeding woman should sit in a corner and cover up.

I for one am not scared of change and do not moan about how bad life is but I am more scared of the impact of a far right group leading a EU exit.

Tomorrow is going to be interesting -whichever way people voted.


----------



## CanIgoHome

now the counting begin 

let see whats happens now


----------



## stockwellcat.

Voting has finished.

Counting begins.

Results available here as they come in:
http://election.news.sky.com/referendum

Good luck.

I am going to catch up on the results in the morning. No point losing sleep on it


----------



## Colliebarmy

The final turnout in Gibraltar - whose residents are voting in the UK's EU referendum - is 84%. 

That should be an interesting result


----------



## kimthecat

If anyone does Twitter , check out the trending #rubbergate , very funny jokes and photos .


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> If anyone does Twitter , check out the trending #rubbergate , very funny jokes and photos .


I did find the #usepens one funny as well.

It did make me laugh when a few people, rightly, pointed out that those who wanted out and believed they had to use pens were voting to give even more control to the people they couldn't trust not to erase and fix their votes!
Not to mention how long it would take to sit there and erase a vote. If they wanted it fixed, then stuffed ballot boxes would be used, no need to worry over a pen!


----------



## kimthecat

@emmaviolet I didnt see the #usepens trend. I'll have to check it out .


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Very simplistic not to mention VERY biased
> 
> This is very crafty (well not really) pro leave propaganda trying to appear neutral.
> 
> The questions are loaded to favour brexit - but here is the conclusive proof - they are blatantly parroting brexit LIES on here. https://journolink.com/blog/149-4-reasons-to-vote-in-amp-4-reasons-to-vote-out---y
> 
> For example -
> _
> To Take Back Control of Our Money
> 
> The EU costs us at least £350 million a week. We get less than half of this money back, and we have no control over how it's spent.If we vote to leave the EU we will be able to control where this money is spent. It could, as suggested, be spent on our NHS, but the fact of the matter is that it would be decided by British voters.
> _
> And the truth - http://infacts.org/vote-leave-lying-saying-send-eu-350-million-week/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darren Staples/Reuters
> *Why Vote Leave's use of £350m figure is a lie*
> by Sam Ashworth-Hayes | 27.05.2016
> The claim that we send £350 million a week to Brussels isn't just false. Vote Leave must by now know it's false. Peddling the untruth after respected voices - including today the chair of theUK Statistics Authority and the Treasury Select Committee - have highlighted the error is dishonest.
> 
> In its broadcast ads and on the side of the battle bus ferrying Boris Johnson around the country, Vote Leave says we "send" £350 million a week to the EU. This is not true. The £350 million figure doesn't account for the discount that Margaret Thatcher, a hero to so many eurosceptics, won for Britain. This discount - the so-called rebate - is never sent to Brussels.
> 
> There are things that Vote Leave could legitimately say about £350 million a week. It could, for example, call it our hypothetical or notional contribution. But it is a mistake to say we "send" it to Brussels.
> 
> Vote Leave must know this. InFacts has repeatedly pointed out that we do not send the rebateto Brussels. We have been explaining this to Vote Leave since February. We have also set out clearly here what we do send and how much of that comes back to the UK - as well as explaining how there would be no saving at all if we quit the EU because the economy would take a hit.
> 
> The Chair of the UKSA, Andrew Dilnot, warned Vote Leave in April that its use of the £350 million figure is "potentially misleading".
> 
> The Office for National Statistics, following pressure from InFacts, published a release on May 25 saying: "This amount of money was never actually transferred to the EU. Before the UK government transfers any money to the EU a rebate is applied".
> 
> The Institute for Fiscal Studies on May 25 said the £350 million figure "is equivalent to suggesting that were the UK to leave the EU and not make any financial contribution to the EU's budget then remaining EU members would continue to pay the rebate to the UK", which is "clearly absurd".
> 
> BBC Reality Check wrote in April: "We've said it before and we'll say it again - the UK does not send £350m a week to Brussels - the rebate is deducted before the money is sent".
> 
> Full Fact, the fact-checking website, had previously provided some intellectual cover for Vote Leave by saying "it's reasonable to describe £55 million as our 'membership fee'" - Brexiteers sometimes talk about £50 million or £55 million a day rather than £350 million pounds a week. After InFacts pointed out errors in its calculation in February, Full Fact corrected its piece. In April, it went further, saying Vote Leave's claim that "we send £350 million to Brussels every week….is not a fact".
> 
> Dilnot today put out a statement saying: "The UK Statistics Authority is disappointed to note that there continue to be suggestions that the UK contributes £350 million to the EU each week… As we have made clear, the UK's contribution to the EU is paid after the application of the rebate".
> 
> Dilnot also wrote today to Dominic Cummings, Vote Leave's campaign director, saying: "As I have made clear previously, this is not an amount of money that the UK pays to the EU each year".
> 
> The Treasury Select Committee, in a report published today, said £350 million "is not 'sent' to Brussels in the first place".
> 
> The committee added: "Vote Leave has subsequently placed the £350m figure on its campaign bus, and on much of its recent campaign literature. The public should discount this claim. Vote Leave's persistence with it is deeply problematic. It sits very awkwardly with its promises to the Electoral Commission to work in a spirit that reflects its 'very significant responsibility' and the 'gravity of the choice facing the British people'."
> 
> It is not credible that Vote Leave is making an honest mistake. It is telling a lie. The public should punish it accordingly.


Honestly, I don't have the attention span to read all the stuff you post.


----------



## MilleD

Colliebarmy said:


> The final turnout in Gibraltar - whose residents are voting in the UK's EU referendum - is 84%.
> 
> That should be an interesting result


Yeah, their vote was pretty much a 100% leave. Of course they have a bit of a personal vested interest so it was obvious the way it would go.

Interesting that that was the first declare to show on the BBC though


----------



## Satori

Wey aye man!


----------



## Satori




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Looks like Northern Ireland wants to leave the UK and rejoin Eire they are asking for a referendum.

I am really shocked but vote out are winning.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Honestly, I don't have the attention span to read all the stuff you post.


How convenient lol Well to cut a long story short, your EU quiz was nothing more than Pro brexit propaganda. What a surprise.


----------



## Lilylass

MollySmith said:


> Our MEP is Richard Howitt, I often see him on the train (and doing his bit to sort out the awful train service) and the one in my parents village is supporting a historical research project that the community are engaged in. She lives in their village and although not a party I support, I give her credit for engagement.
> 
> This sums it up.
> 
> - Until fairly recently I was strongly in favour of holding a referendum on leaving the EU, largely because it had become such a toxic political issue that it needed a genuine mandate from the people. Added to that I am strongly sceptical about the EU, largely because of the democratic deficit, because of the craziness of the CAP and the fishing policy, because of its neo-liberal underpinning.
> 
> However, I now realise that I was wrong wrong wrong. What has become crystal clear from this referendum is that our adversarial political system is totally unsuited to any kind of complex popular decision making, and that the campaign has muddied that process rather than clarifying.
> 
> Both sides have deliberately lied, exaggerated and obfuscated. To make matters worse, a faction of one side has stirred up a toxic mud of xenophobia. The result - a host of decisions being taken up and down the country based on uncorrected false premises and misunderstandings.
> 
> I cannot help thinking that this sort of campaign was inevitable from the start, because that sort of political behaviour is built into the structure of our politics. Just look at the childish antics of PMQs. Look at the total inability of either side to recognise the opposition's good points, which are then stolen when it is politically expedient.
> 
> This is at a time when trust in our politicians is at an all-time low. This referendum has, I believe, even more tarnished our democracy. The verdict of history will be scathing.
> 
> I still have the same very strong concerns about the EU, but I felt that the dangers of a far right government leading our exit negotiations were just too great, so I voted to Remain. -
> 
> Just as you've both voted Leave based on what you know. Please don't be so insulting - I expected better from both of you. Remain voters engage in politics just as much as the Leave voters have.
> 
> This entire process really has made me see General Chat and PF in a new light. I had thought it was an inclusive space and much improved but mostly I'm disappointed and that won't change whatever the outcome tomorrow. Doubtless it will become a childish playground again of who was right and wrong, littered with locked threads.


Where exactly have I been insulting?

The comment that I think many will vote to stay because they're scared is actually factual as it's reflected in what many people have said to me - that they want to leave but don't trust our politicians so will vote to stay - that's actually quite a sad state of affairs!

I have been called racist & many things along those lines which is quite frankly disgusting & very insulting


----------



## newfiesmum

We are out! We have voted to leave, by only 52% but now there is some pillock on the telly mumbling about, oh well, that gives us something to think about! He seems to think we won't be leaving right away, just talking about it. I think there will be a revolution; obviously the vote didn't go his way. Seems Scotland want another referendum as they don't like this one.


----------



## Lilylass

newfiesmum said:


> We are out! We have voted to leave, by only 52% but now there is some pillock on the telly mumbling about, oh well, that gives us something to think about! He seems to think we won't be leaving right away, just talking about it. I think there will be a revolution; obviously the vote didn't go his way. Seems Scotland want another referendum as they don't like this one.


Most in Scotland don't want another referendum - the snp won't let it drop despite promising to accept the results of the last one


----------



## newfiesmum

Lilylass said:


> Where exactly have I been insulting?
> 
> The comment that I think many will vote to stay because they're scared is actually factual as it's reflected in what many people have said to me - that they want to leave but don't trust our politicians so will vote to stay - that's actually quite a sad state of affairs!
> 
> I have been called racist & many thing along those lines which is quite frankly disgusting & very insulting


People who have been bandying about that if you vote to leave you must be racist have made my blood boil. The Nazis were racist; the Ku Klux Klan are racist; slave traders were racist; the South African government with their apartheid rules were racist. Are they seriously comparing us who want to leave with them? All I can say to those people is - grow up! Look at your history and discover the true meaning of racism.


----------



## Fleur

The Prime Minister now has to notify our intent to leave - there is no timescale for this.
Once Article 50 has been evoked we have 2 years to negotiate our exit - this can only be extended if all other state members agree. 

I feel we are now at a time of massive uncertainty and worry we will enter a recession like that of the 80's


----------



## stockwellcat.

newfiesmum said:


> We are out! We have voted to leave, by only 52% but now there is some pillock on the telly mumbling about, oh well, that gives us something to think about! He seems to think we won't be leaving right away, just talking about it. I think there will be a revolution; obviously the vote didn't go his way. Seems Scotland want another referendum as they don't like this one.


Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty needs to be activated for us to leave. Once activated we have two years to negotiate our exit from the EU. If no agreement is agreed they can extend this period or say there is no deal with Britain and the EU. We are leaving either way. Cameron needs to activate Article 50 asap.


----------



## Lurcherlad

That's it then. The majority voted out. The people have spoken!

Hopefully, we can look forward to a brighter future.


----------



## noushka05

Fleur said:


> The Prime Minister now has to notify our intent to leave - there is no timescale for this.
> Once Article 50 has been evoked we have 2 years to negotiate our exit - this can only be extended if all other state members agree.
> *
> I feel we are now at a time of massive uncertainty and worry we will enter a recession like that of the 80's*


So do I Fleur - only much worse ....

*Dr Paul Monaghan MPVerified account*‏@_PaulMonaghan
Japan has halted trading on the pound and UK stocks.* The financial meltdown underway is unparalleled*

Looks like Farage is getting the old Britain back right away - the Pound is already down 1985 levels .


----------



## newfiesmum

stockwellcat said:


> Cameron has to now set the wheels in motion for Article 50 as soon as possible and then it takes two years of negotiations with EU and
> Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty needs to be activated for us to leave. Once activated we have two years to negotiate our exit from the EU. If no agreement is agreed they can extend this period or say there is no deal with Britain and the EU. We are leaving either way. Cameron needs to activate Article 50 asap.


But we don't have to take two years and the remainers are in denial, saying it will take all this time and that there will still be loads of immigrants, that they won't close the borders. I think if we don't get out quickly, there will be a revolution. They seem to think this was just a trial run.


----------



## emmaviolet

Fleur said:


> The Prime Minister now has to notify our intent to leave - there is no timescale for this.
> Once Article 50 has been evoked we have 2 years to negotiate our exit - this can only be extended if all other state members agree.
> 
> I feel we are now at a time of massive uncertainty and worry we will enter a recession like that of the 80's


You are right Fleur, we will sink further in the hole and it won't be the super rich that suffer, it will be the poor and the weak. Furhter cuts to the poor.

Nigel has just been on the tv and said there isn't the money to spend on the NHS as 'leave' promised. That's a surprise!


----------



## rona

Reckon Cameron is feeling a little sick this morning. Poor man obviously thought it wouldn't end like this. Brave man but stupid


----------



## MiloandTazzy

The country is divided, financial markets are in turmoil and I've seen openly racist comments on twitter and fb. It's a sad day.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Reckon Cameron is feeling a little sick this morning. Poor man obviously thought it wouldn't end like this. Brave man but stupid


Brave? That con man has trashed this country.


----------



## Fleur

I believe the referendum was timed so article 50 could be evoked and the 2 year negotiations completed before the next general election 
This means 2 things negotiations aren't tied up due to political uncertainty and then used as part of the election campaign on all sides.
Secondly that Cameron is in charge and can negotiate a deal that means little actually changing so the whole thing would of been an expensive waste of time and in the meantime we are sent into a time of financial and political uncertainty.


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> So do I Fleur - only much worse ....
> 
> *Dr Paul Monaghan MPVerified account*‏@_PaulMonaghan
> Japan has halted trading on the pound and UK stocks.* The financial meltdown underway is unparalleled*
> 
> Looks like Farage is getting the old Britain back right away - the Pound is already down 1985 levels .


Sad sad times, @noushka05 thank you for your facts and figures. I'm signing out of GC today.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

newfiesmum said:


> But we don't have to take two years and the remainers are in denial, saying it will take all this time and that there will still be loads of immigrants, that they won't close the borders. I think if we don't get out quickly, there will be a revolution. They seem to think this was just a trial run.


Daniel Hannan, Liam Fox and the female Tory whose name I have completely forgotten have all said `It will take time, there will still be immigrants and borders will not close` All of these are Leave, now they may well be in denial through shock of winning but they are certainly not in denial because they are remainers!


----------



## MollySmith

Milliepoochie said:


> Excellent post Mollysmith.
> 
> Personally I don't think the EU is perfect far from it. BUT I don't think the EU is the cause of a lot of the now ingrained problems the UK finds.
> 
> I also couldn't personally vote for a group represented by a man who says he feels uncomfortable on trains when people speak another language (Remember his wife is a German native) and who thinks breastfeeding woman should sit in a corner and cover up.
> 
> I for one am not scared of change and do not moan about how bad life is but I am more scared of the impact of a far right group leading a EU exit.
> 
> Tomorrow is going to be interesting -whichever way people voted.


Thank you Milliepoochie and I agree with all you have said here too x


----------



## MollySmith

3dogs2cats said:


> Daniel Hannan, Liam Fox and the female Tory whose name I have completely forgotten have all said `It will take time, there will still be immigrants and borders will not close` All of these are Leave, now they may well be in denial through shock of winning but they are certainly not in denial because they are remainers!


There will always be human beings seeking immigration and movement of people, because the countries mostly affected aren't in the EU.

It's going to be interesting seeing the break down of truth and fact in the Leave campaign and what this really means. What did the leave voters let themselves in for.

Like this - the pound at an all-time low... Nice one chaps, well done.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36611512


----------



## Milliepoochie

Fleur said:


> The Prime Minister now has to notify our intent to leave - there is no timescale for this.
> Once Article 50 has been evoked we have 2 years to negotiate our exit - this can only be extended if all other state members agree.
> 
> I feel we are now at a time of massive uncertainty and worry we will enter a recession like that of the 80's


Indeed £ at its lowest in 30 years.

It will be interesting to see how the next few weeks and months pan out.

I also feel it's a time of uncertainty - the economy is going to slow down quite considerably I imagine.

I wonder how long for the Article 50 to be triggered - the two years of negotiations starts from that point.

Have to admit I am absolutely disgusted seeing the likes of Farage all over the TV already.

Wonder how long it will take for the 350ion extra a week to be visible... Guess that's the NHS sorted then


----------



## KittenKong

It's the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland I feel for the most. They voted for remaining yet will be forced to leave the EU against their wishes. England and Wales fair enough but not them....


----------



## havoc

I went to bed British - woke up Irish


----------



## noushka05

MollySmith said:


> Sad sad times, @noushka05 thank you for your facts and figures. I'm signing out of GC today.


Aw bless you Molly, but you will be sorely missed in GC. I really hope you reconsider. I for one will miss all your excellent & thoughtful posts. Stay


----------



## raebhoop

MollySmith said:


> Like this - the pound at an all-time low... Nice one chaps, well done


Predictable...
My worry is yet another clown will become PM...I thought the Yanks were bad but our choice of leaders is a damn sight worse.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> It's the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland I feel for the most. They voted for remaining yet will be forced to leave the EU against their wishes. England and Wales fair enough but not them....


Don't forget Cheeky & other Gibraltarians. They voted overwhelmingly to remain. Its being said Spain will now reclaim Gibraltar. Really hope this is just false speculation.


----------



## Fleur

I wonder if Scotland will follow Greenland's example - if it is even possible in reverse.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Don't forget Cheeky & other Gibraltarians. They voted overwhelmingly to remain. Its being said Spain will now reclaim Gibraltar. Really hope this is just false speculation.


It is not. My little boy is crying. All he understands is that something sad happened.

Gibraltar may just wait to see if Britain cares at all and take it from there.

Depending what Scotland and so on will do.

Most likely though companies will be moving out and I might be unemployed.

With many others.

It may well be epilog in history of British Gibraltar.

Not so much independence day here.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> It's the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland I feel for the most. They voted for remaining yet will be forced to leave the EU against their wishes. England and Wales fair enough but not them....


Beggars can't be choosers.


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> It's the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland I feel for the most. They voted for remaining yet will be forced to leave the EU against their wishes. England and Wales fair enough but not them....


That's democracy. The vote was for individual citizens of the UK, not the 4 countries. The majority of those individuals have voted to leave.

Had the Remain vote won, I would be disappointed but I wouldn't be slitting my wrists!

We shall have to wait and see - no need for hysteria.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> So do I Fleur - only much worse ....
> 
> *Dr Paul Monaghan MPVerified account*‏@_PaulMonaghan
> Japan has halted trading on the pound and UK stocks.* The financial meltdown underway is unparalleled*
> 
> Looks like Farage is getting the old Britain back right away - the Pound is already down 1985 levels .


----------



## Lurcherlad

Nobody knows what will happen in the medium to long term.

There is bound to be a knee jerk reaction everwhere to the result at first.

KEEP CALM BRITAIN, AND CARRY ON!


----------



## havoc

_It's the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland I feel for the most. They voted for remaining yet will be forced to leave the EU against their wishes. England and Wales fair enough but not them....
Beggars can't be choosers._
Maybe they can. We'll have to wait and see.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> How convenient lol Well to cut a long story short, your EU quiz was nothing more than Pro brexit propaganda. What a surprise.


Thank you for paraphrasing


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> View attachment 275188


But you supported Leave?

Lucky those who earn in dollars!!!
Or saved in yen.

Pound is in meltdown as experts predicted....

How Cameron is to deal with it?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> It's the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland I feel for the most. They voted for remaining yet will be forced to leave the EU against their wishes. England and Wales fair enough but not them....


and if Remain had won England an d Wales would have been forced to stay in against their wishes.


----------



## havoc

If remain had won it wouldn't have been against England and Wales wishes. That's how it works.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> But you supported Leave?
> 
> Lucky those who earn in dollars!!!
> Or saved in yen.
> 
> Pound is in meltdown as experts predicted....
> 
> How Cameron is to deal with it?


That's the money markets for you. They drive their own future unfortunately.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> But you supported Leave?


Oh yes indeed


----------



## Satori

Lurcherlad said:


> Nobody knows what will happen in the medium to long term.
> 
> There is bound to be a knee jerk reaction everwhere to the result at first.
> 
> KEEP CALM BRITAIN, AND CARRY ON!


Exactly. Just checked and it is still up there....


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> It is not. My little boy is crying. All he understands is that something sad happened.
> 
> Gibraltar may just wait to see if Britain cares at all and take it from there.
> 
> Depending what Scotland and so on will do.
> 
> Most likely though companies will be moving out and I might be unemployed.
> 
> With many others.
> 
> It may well be epilog in history of British Gibraltar.
> 
> Not so much independence day here.


Aw bless him. I'm really sorry xx I'm really hoping things wont turn out as bad as you fear they will. The company my hubby works for is (was?) in the process of being bought out by a Belgium company. They've kept moving the signing over date back & back - now its supposed to be monday. The cynic in me feels they were waiting to see the outcome of the referendum. 
Guess we'll soon find out.



Satori said:


> View attachment 275188


The face of nightmares:Wtf Can you believe hes younger than Brad Pitt?


----------



## Satori

Cameron just resigned. Good man. Only proper course of action.


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> If remain had won it wouldn't have been against England and Wales wishes. That's how it works.


I'm still half asleep !  But I hope the sentiment is understood. It was close , the Scottish and irish vote could have swung it for Remain .

Scotland voted to stay within the UK , it was known at the time that an EU referendum was promised by cameron , it was a chance they took .


----------



## stockwellcat.

Fleur said:


> I believe the referendum was timed so article 50 could be evoked and the 2 year negotiations completed before the next general election
> This means 2 things negotiations aren't tied up due to political uncertainty and then used as part of the election campaign on all sides.
> Secondly that Cameron is in charge and can negotiate a deal that means little actually changing so the whole thing would of been an expensive waste of time and in the meantime we are sent into a time of financial and political uncertainty.





kimthecat said:


> I'm still half asleep !  But I hope the sentiment is understood. It was close , the Scottish and irish vote could have swung it for Remain .


It's true:
Britain is leaving EU and Cameron has resigned as PM and will leave by October.
http://news.sky.com/story/1716798/cameron-resigns-after-eu-referendum-vote


----------



## noushka05

Lurcherlad said:


> Nobody knows what will happen in the medium to long term.
> 
> There is bound to be a knee jerk reaction everwhere to the result at first.
> *
> KEEP CALM BRITAIN, AND CARRY ON!*


It wont be easy LL, but for the sake of my blood pressure, I'm going to take your advice & try lol


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat yes i know .  My post was in response to .. oh never mind !


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> It wont be easy LL, but for the sake of my blood pressure, I'm going to take your advice & try lol


Bye bye Camoron. Look at it that way.


----------



## KittenKong

Lurcherlad said:


> That's democracy. The vote was for individual citizens of the UK, not the 4 countries. The majority of those individuals have voted to leave.
> 
> Had the Remain vote won, I would be disappointed but I wouldn't be slitting my wrists!
> 
> We shall have to wait and see - no need for hysteria.


Not only do I find the above patronising I find it deeply offensive. I maintained I respect the wishes of the English and Welsh but feel for the principalities who's voted the other way, not forgetting Gibraltar I was kindly reminded of.
And to be accused of hysteria and "slashing of wrists" , don't know if you were trying to be jovial but I wasn't amused....
I appreciate you'll be feeling elated at the moment and I don't wish to fall out with . There's been enough bad feeling over the past few months with this referendum. It's over, Time to move on.

With kind regards.


----------



## Blackadder

danielled said:


> Bye bye Camoron. Look at it that way.


Just hope it's not "Hello Boris"


----------



## Guest

BlackadderUK said:


> Just hope it's not "Hello Boris"


Yes not Boris please.


----------



## MoggyBaby

MollySmith said:


> Just as you've both voted Leave based on what you know. Please don't be so insulting - I expected better from both of you. Remain voters engage in politics just as much as the Leave voters have.
> 
> This entire process really has made me see General Chat and PF in a new light. I had thought it was an inclusive space and much improved but mostly I'm disappointed and that won't change whatever the outcome tomorrow. Doubtless it will become a childish playground again of who was right and wrong, littered with locked threads.


Just back up your truck there lady!! I haven't insulted anyone in this thread and have respected everyone's opinion even when they were very different to mine. I stated a fact - there ARE people who are scared of change even though they don't like the current situation. How anyone can consider that to be insulting is beyond me!!



noushka05 said:


> Brave? That con man has trashed this country.


I knew we'd finally find our way back to being in agreement.   xxx


----------



## havoc

_Cameron just resigned. Good man. Only proper course of action._

I know people like that - turn up, create absolute bloody mayhem and then piss off and let someone else sort out the mess.


----------



## westie~ma

Governor of Bank of England offering more reassurance than DC. 

What a coward DC is, he got it wrong, stuck it up and move on, show how strong a negotiator you are and help the country to hash out the best trade deals, announcing resignation now just causes even more chaos and uncertainty to the markets. 

Obviously he's not up to it and has put himself first.


----------



## havoc

It's time to get answers to the really important questions now guys - like will we still be able to play Euromillions?


----------



## MilleD

havoc said:


> It's time to get answers to the really important questions now guys - like will we still be able to play Euromillions?




Another one - will we get duty free once we are out?  BUT be restricted on quantity again?


----------



## rona

This is true democracy. The little people have spoken. Just a shame it was so close.

A bit scary but also exciting too


----------



## Satori

havoc said:


> It's time to get answers to the really important questions now guys - like will we still be able to play Euromillions?


No need. Just use dollars to buy a ftse tracker when it looks like it is bottoming out.


----------



## Hanwombat

I liked Cameron.. so sad to see him go but he couldn't have stayed as obviously he was 100% remain and it would be completely against his believes.

I think there are going to be some low points for us as a country for the next few years but then I think we will pick ourselves back up again - I am looking forward to seeing what happens really.

Thats my two cents - I am avoiding these threads and discussions on facebook really


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> The face of nightmares:Wtf Can you believe hes younger than Brad Pitt?


Come on now, that's hardly a fair comparison. Mmm Brad Pitt rool


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> Not only do I find the above patronising I find it deeply offensive. I maintained I respect the wishes of the English and Welsh but feel for the principalities who's voted the other way, not forgetting Gibraltar I was kindly reminded of.
> And to be accused of hysteria and "slashing of wrists" , don't know if you were trying to be jovial but I wasn't amused....
> I appreciate you'll be feeling elated at the moment and I don't wish to fall out with . There's been enough bad feeling over the past few months with this referendum. It's over, Time to move on.
> 
> With kind regards.


I'm sorry you feel patronised and offended, that certainly wasn't my intention.

I was trying to keep it lighthearted though 

I didn't say you were slashing your wrists, I said *I *wasn't 
Nor did I say you were hysterical 

However, you assume I am elated - I am not 

I look forward, but with some trepidation of the unknown.

Like I said, none of us know how this will pan out. I hope the decision turns out to be the right one for all of us Brits wherever we are in the World.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well I'm glad I'm almost at the end of my life than just starting it, by the time it's all sorted I might not be here 
David what have you done, now we'll probably going to get Boris.

2 own goals


----------



## Nicky10

And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.

Can't wait to see all the hospitals, oh wait, that was already forgotten


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> I knew we'd finally find our back to being in agreement.   xxx


I guess it was inevitable with our mutual hatred of Cameron & co & our shared love of wild animals


----------



## westie~ma

Nicky10 said:


> *And the angry racists have won*, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.
> 
> Can't wait to see all the hospitals, oh wait, that was already forgotten


Tad generalised 

Immigration was not my motivation for the way I voted.


----------



## Satori

Nicky10 said:


> And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.
> 
> Can't wait to see all the hospitals, oh wait, that was already forgotten


Just listen to yourself. You really think there are 17,410,742 angry racists? Get a grip.


----------



## kimthecat

Nicky10 said:


> And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.


So all Leave voters are angry racists ? I shall be sure to tell my Asian neighbours who voted Leave that!


----------



## Lilylass

westie~ma said:


> Tad generalised
> 
> Immigration was not my motivation for the way I voted.


Mine either!


----------



## Lilylass

Nicky10 said:


> And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.
> 
> Can't wait to see all the hospitals, oh wait, that was already forgotten


It's exactly comments like that, that in the end pushed me to vote leave so well done!


----------



## rona

Nicky10 said:


> And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.
> 
> Can't wait to see all the hospitals, oh wait, that was already forgotten


This just shows why the remain lost. They had no idea of the true reasons that majority wanted out.


----------



## Lurcherlad

havoc said:


> _Cameron just resigned. Good man. Only proper course of action._
> 
> I know people like that - turn up, create absolute bloody mayhem and then piss off and let someone else sort out the mess.


Yeah! Tony Blair springs to mind!


----------



## MoggyBaby

Nicky10 said:


> *And the angry racists have won*, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.
> 
> Can't wait to see all the hospitals, oh wait, that was already forgotten


Seriously??? 

There really are no words for such a narrow minded comment! :Meh


----------



## KittenKong

Lurcherlad said:


> I'm sorry you feel patronised and offended, that certainly wasn't my intention.
> 
> I was trying to keep it lighthearted though
> 
> I didn't say you were slashing your wrists, I said *I *wasn't
> Nor did I say you were hysterical
> 
> However, you assume I am elated - I am not .


Thanks very much. I appreciate it. Only fair for me to apologise if I misinterpreted anything.


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> Thanks very much. I appreciate it. Only fair for me to apologise if I misinterpreted anything.


We're all in it together!


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> It is not. My little boy is crying. All he understands is that something sad happened.
> 
> Gibraltar may just wait to see if Britain cares at all and take it from there.
> 
> Depending what Scotland and so on will do.
> 
> Most likely though companies will be moving out and I might be unemployed.
> 
> With many others.
> 
> It may well be epilog in history of British Gibraltar.
> 
> Not so much independence day here.


I'm so sorry, this must be very frightening for you and your family.

I do hope your fears are proved to be unfounded


----------



## DoodlesRule

Nicky10 said:


> And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.
> 
> Can't wait to see all the hospitals, oh wait, that was already forgotten


And that is exactly the attitude that has brought the country to this point. Shame on you


----------



## noushka05

Nicky may not have meant everyone who voted out is a racist - but that ALL racists will have voted out - so in effect shes right, they have won. The far right across the globe are celebrating. These are very scary times.


----------



## noushka05

Edward Snowdens thoughts -

*Edward SnowdenVerified account*‏@Snowden
No matter the outcome, #Brexit polls demonstrate how quickly half of any population can be convinced to vote against itself. Quite a lesson.


RETWEETS 27,665 LIKES 29,427


----------



## MollySmith

However you must be feeling, spare a thought for this woman...
http://uk.businessinsider.com/william-hill-says-londoner-lumped-100000-on-eu-referendum-2016-5


----------



## Blitz

havoc said:


> _It's the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland I feel for the most. They voted for remaining yet will be forced to leave the EU against their wishes. England and Wales fair enough but not them....
> Beggars can't be choosers._
> Maybe they can. We'll have to wait and see.


Erm, Scotland and Northern Ireland are part of the UK and it was a UK vote. What about London and the south, they voted to remain too so should they become a separate country. And of course nearly half of the whole UK voted to remain, are they going to start up a new Union.

I have to agree with Nicky up to a point. Not that every leave voter was a racist of course but that immigration is not such a huge factor in Scotland so one wonders if that made a difference. And London is so multi cultural a lot of voters must be from immigrant families so that could have slanted their vote a bit. I expect it depends how you look at it but, rightly or wrongly, I am of the opinion that immigration was far too high a factor in a lot of people's decision.


----------



## Catharinem

MollySmith said:


> However you must be feeling, spare a thought for this woman...
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/william-hill-says-londoner-lumped-100000-on-eu-referendum-2016-5


My first and only bet was £1, yup, one quid, one Desert Orchid to come in the first 3. He didn't! ￼


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Nicky may not have meant everyone who voted out is a racist - but that ALL racists will have voted out - so in effect shes right, they have won. .


 No , you *don't* know that all racist svoted out .

There's a petition for another referendum already . Everybody loves democracy except when the vote goes against them.

BTW I've asked around on line if my asian neighbours who voted leave are racist . I'm looking forward to the replies though no one has so far .


----------



## stockwellcat.

Nicky10 said:


> And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.
> 
> Can't wait to see all the hospitals, oh wait, that was already forgotten


What a load of tosh. How dare you indirectly brand me racist.
This is about taking our country back nothing to do with what you said. Get a grip.


----------



## simplysardonic

noushka05 said:


> Nicky may not have meant everyone who voted out is a racist - but that ALL racists will have voted out - so in effect shes right, they have won. *The far right across the globe are celebrating*. These are very scary times.


This has worried me more than anything, I have friends who have voted to leave & they are definitely not racist or right wing, I wouldn't be friends with them if they were & I am upset that they are lumped into the same category when they have had completely different reasons for their choices.

ETA: My other half voted differently to me, & we've managed to stay married!


----------



## Jesthar

westie~ma said:


> Governor of Bank of England offering more reassurance than DC.
> 
> What a coward DC is, he got it wrong, stuck it up and move on, *show how strong a negotiator you are and help the country to hash out the best trade deals*, announcing resignation now just causes even more chaos and uncertainty to the markets.
> 
> Obviously he's not up to it and has put himself first.


I suppose it depends on whether or not any other country would take him seriously as a negotiator though, or regard him as a laughing stock who can't even persuade his own country to vote the way he was supporting.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> No , you *don't* know that all racist svoted out .
> 
> There's a petition for another referendum already . Everybody loves democracy except when the vote goes against them.
> 
> BTW I've asked around on line if my asian neighbours who voted leave are racist . I'm looking forward to the replies though no one has so far .


I am sorry to inform you but there won't be another referendum on this.
Over 9,000 people ticked both boxes on the voting form even though it said only put one x in the box you are voting for. Over 2,000 people put blank voting sheets in the ballot box so these where null and voided. In London there was a poor turn out overall.
There will be no further referendums I'm afraid this was a one off vote that cannot be overturned.


----------



## JANICE199

*Can we not have any debate in this country without the damn racist card coming out? *


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> What a load of tosh. How dare you indirectly brand me racist.
> This is about taking our country back nothing to do with what you said. Get a grip.


Or perhaps the angry racists were the ones _running _the exit campaign, not necessarily those voting for it? Just a thought 

As for taking our country back, the EU accounts for about 13% of our laws and there's an opt out clause too for those (like France) who can be bothered to use it. Therefore I'm going to be amused if the turnout for this was higher than for the General Election, which determines who gets to make the other 87% of our laws...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Some remain campaigners seem to be sore losers.


----------



## Honeys mum

Nicky10 said:


> And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.


What are you on? How dare you call me a racist. My DIL, all though born in U.K. has Indian parents.
We love her to bits. You should be ashamed of yourselve.


----------



## Zaros

I've read some nonsense in my life, even posted my own fair share, but I have never before set my eyes upon such twaddle as blaming the Racists for Britain pulling out of Europe. 
Still, it's a refreshing thought that the usual culprits, the sick, the poor, the benefit scroungers and the unemployed haven't had to shoulder that responsibility.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> What a load of tosh. How dare you indirectly brand me racist.
> This is about taking our country back nothing to do with what you said. Get a grip.


Dont read twitter , it will make your blood boil . the stupid comments !


----------



## CanIgoHome

stockwellcat said:


> Some remain campaigners seem to be sore losers.


yep so much so now that on the Gov site is a petition calling for a new referendum and 81,000 + people have sign it talk about throw your toys out of the pram


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Some remain campaigners seem to be sore losers.


Maybe some remain campaigners have a lot to lose, or know a lot of people with a lot to lose. I'm sure it would be the other way around had the vote gone the other way, and we'd be seeing lots of posts about it being a vote for being a second rate red tape bound puppet state, or in favour of terrorism.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Dont read twitter , it will make your blood boil . the stupid comments !


Don't have Twitter.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> I am sorry to inform you but there won't be another referendum on this.
> Over 9,000 people ticked both boxes on the voting form even though it said only put one x in the box you are voting for. Over 2,000 people put blank voting sheets in the ballot box so these where null and voided. In London there was a poor turn out overall.
> There will be no further referendums I'm afraid this was a one off vote that cannot be overturned.


Yes , I know . I'm not asking for one, I mentioned it because it shows that lefties etc aren't as democratic as they like to think they are .


----------



## stockwellcat.

CanIgoHome said:


> yep so much so now that on the Gov site is a petition calling for a new referendum and 81,000 + people have sign it talk about throw your toys out of the pram


This wont happen though. We was warned this was a once in a life time referendum.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Very good speach by Boris and Gove. We aren't rushing to invoke article 50. We are now in the negotiation stage with the EU. We are going to remain part of Europe but not the EU.


----------



## Lurcherlad

MollySmith said:


> However you must be feeling, spare a thought for this woman...
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/william-hill-says-londoner-lumped-100000-on-eu-referendum-2016-5


Why?

Her money, her choice.

It's called gambling


----------



## Hanwombat

I voted leave... and I am certainly not racist! Christ I live in Peterborough and most of the people in my cul-de-sac are polish, romanian or korean and I don't treat them any differently and I am always happy to greet them / have a chat.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Very good speach by Boris and Gove. We aren't rushing to invoke article 50. We are now in the negotiation stage with the EU.* We are going to remain part of Europe* but not the EU.


Well, quite. We've been part of Europe since the time of the dinosaurs and beyond, that's Geography not politics!


----------



## Hanwombat

Lurcherlad said:


> Why?
> 
> Her money, her choice.
> 
> It's called gambling


I personally think the woman was stupid - I certainly do not feel for her.


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> However you must be feeling, spare a thought for this woman...
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/william-hill-says-londoner-lumped-100000-on-eu-referendum-2016-5


No. Sounds like a hedge to me. She's probably happy on balance.


----------



## westie~ma

Jesthar said:


> I suppose it depends on whether or not any other country would take him seriously as a negotiator though, or regard him as a laughing stock who can't even persuade his own country to vote the way he was supporting.


His version of "steadying the ship" is to put his gangplank out ready for him to disembark. Strength of character, DC obviously hasn't any.


----------



## newfiesmum

JANICE199 said:


> *Can we not have any debate in this country without the damn racist card coming out? *


Janice, as always you have taken the words right out of my mouth. As I said earlier, the Nazis were racist, the Ku Klux Klan are racist, British people who just want their island back are not racist, just British.


----------



## Jesthar

westie~ma said:


> His version of "steadying the ship" is to put his gangplank out ready for him to disembark. Strength of character, DC obviously hasn't any.


On the other hand, if he had annouced he intended to stay I'm sure we'd be seeing sentiments of "Why isn't he moving out the way" or "He's only staying to make it harder to leave" expressed.

I should add I didn't vote Conservative in the GE, so I have no axe to grind one way or the other. I just call it like I see it.


----------



## MollySmith

Lurcherlad said:


> Why?
> 
> Her money, her choice.
> 
> It's called gambling


I had no idea it was called gambling 

It's just an aside. Some other news. Stuff.


----------



## Guest

As an outsider looking in, this vote seems to have created chaos. It was so close, and if this thread is any indication, has really divided the country. 
It looks quite shocking from the outside, the headlines are “In stunning decision, Britain votes to leave the EU, PM resigns, British pound at 30 year low” 

In or Out, a divided country is not good... I hope whoever replaces Cameron will prioritize bringing the country back together again.


----------



## Arnie83

ouesi said:


> As an outsider looking in, this vote seems to have created chaos. It was so close, and if this thread is any indication, has really divided the country.
> It looks quite shocking from the outside, the headlines are "In stunning decision, Britain votes to leave the EU, PM resigns, British pound at 30 year low"
> 
> In or Out, a divided country is not good... I hope whoever replaces Cameron will prioritize bringing the country back together again.


Let's hope it's not Boris, then. Having lied to take us out, I for one will never trust him again.


----------



## Lurcherlad

ouesi said:


> As an outsider looking in, this vote seems to have created chaos. It was so close, and if this thread is any indication, has really divided the country.
> It looks quite shocking from the outside, the headlines are "In stunning decision, Britain votes to leave the EU, PM resigns, British pound at 30 year low"
> 
> In or Out, a divided country is not good... I hope whoever replaces Cameron will prioritize bringing the country back together again.


Don't worry about 'Old Blighty!

Everyone will calm down, eventually 

You've got bigger worries than us - Trump!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Junker is so inpatient. We have just had the results. He said he is upset with what Cameron done (step down as pm) and wants us to evoke article 50 now to stop other countries in the EU from wanting a referendum to leave. Chillax Junker.


----------



## Guest

Lurcherlad said:


> Don't worry about 'Old Blighty!
> 
> Everyone will calm down, eventually
> 
> You've got bigger worries than us - Trump!


Yes, Trump is a worry for us for sure, not sure Clinton is much better...

I didn't say I was worried, I said from the outside looking in, it looks frankly quite shocking. And the vote was so close, it has clearly divided the country nearly in half.

You basically have just as many people unhappy as you do happy with the result. That's not a healthy place for the country to be regardless of the result of the vote.


----------



## JANICE199

ouesi said:


> As an outsider looking in, this vote seems to have created chaos. It was so close, and if this thread is any indication, has really divided the country.
> It looks quite shocking from the outside, the headlines are "In stunning decision, Britain votes to leave the EU, PM resigns, British pound at 30 year low"
> 
> In or Out, a divided country is not good... I hope whoever replaces Cameron will prioritize bringing the country back together again.


*Sadly this country has been divided for quite a few years now. The British spirit died.*


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> Junker is so inpatient. We have just had the results. He said he is upset with what Cameron done (step down as pm) and wants us to evoke article 50 now to stop other countries in the EU from wanting a referendum to leave. Chillax Junker.


 if our leaving forces the EU to more democratic and in turn other countries will want to stay then perhaps we have done them a favour .


----------



## Lilylass

ouesi said:


> As an outsider looking in, this vote seems to have created chaos. It was so close, and if this thread is any indication, has really divided the country.
> It looks quite shocking from the outside, the headlines are "In stunning decision, Britain votes to leave the EU, PM resigns, British pound at 30 year low"
> 
> In or Out, a divided country is not good... I hope whoever replaces Cameron will prioritize bringing the country back together again.


Agree - if it's anything like the Scottish referendum it sadly won't happen though


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Everyone I have met this morning has greeted with the words ...did you hear, the Leave has won ...in kind of hushed tones as if no one can quite believe it ....much the same as i was when I saw the news this morning. Those that voted Leave are a little 'did we actually win?' Whilst those that voted Remain are more shrugging their shoulders muttering 'idiots'. The conversation then flows on to everyday things. My experience is that most people irl aren't actually that interested ......and are simply going to wait to see what happens next. I have not encountered any 'division'. 

Democracy is a strange beast ...it's not about facts ...it's about individual peoples opinions. Always has been. It's about what people see out of their windows, who they talk to in the street, how life is effecting them. And that was always going to be risky. Cameron gambled and lost.

J


----------



## kimthecat

ouesi said:


> Yes, Trump is a worry for us for sure, not sure Clinton is much better...
> 
> .


if its between the two , i hope its Clinton.
What is happening about the Congress sit in , our news is all about us . I really hope gun reform laws will be passed. So many want it .


----------



## Lurcherlad

ouesi said:


> Yes, Trump is a worry for us for sure, not sure Clinton is much better...
> 
> I didn't say I was worried, I said from the outside looking in, it looks frankly quite shocking. And the vote was so close, it has clearly divided the country nearly in half.
> 
> You basically have just as many people unhappy as you do happy with the result. That's not a healthy place for the country to be regardless of the result of the vote.


I'm sure it will all calm down in a few days.

The media is doing it's best to whip us into a frenzy!


----------



## MoggyBaby

stockwellcat said:


> Junker is so inpatient. We have just had the results. He said he is upset with what Cameron done (step down as pm) and wants us to evoke article 50 now to stop other countries in the EU from wanting a referendum to leave. Chillax Junker.


The silly old fool saying what he did on Wednesday - re no more concessions for the UK in Europe - was probably not his greatest moment. In doing so, he probably gave the Leave campaign the last final push to get them the majority. Had he kept his mouth shut, I reckon more of the 'Undecided' camp would have voted to stay.


----------



## Guest

Lurcherlad said:


> I'm sure it will all calm down in a few days.


The headlines will - I hope.

The feelings of the people? IDK...
You're in uncharted waters without leadership and with half of he population unhappy with where you're going.

I do very much hope that everyone takes a deep breath, sets their emotions aside and works together. But with the political climate everywhere, divisiveness seems to be the way to go sadly...


----------



## stockwellcat.

I think that Britain is done with the politics of the past. Today is a turning point in history. We should perhaps look at how Switzerland run their country as the people run the Politian's not the other way around. They are quite wealthy because of how there country is run.

Things can and will get better and Britain can put the word Great in front of Britain again.

Today is the beginning of a new future, an independent future and a positive future a future for Great Britain.


----------



## kimthecat

ouesi said:


> T
> You're in uncharted waters without leadership and with half of he population unhappy with where you're going.
> 
> ...


So whats new ?


----------



## Lurcherlad

I think many Brits have felt downtrodden and overruled for too long.

They got an opportunity to make a stand and they took it.

Westminster should take note!


----------



## kimthecat

I'm usually a pessimistic person but the pessimism being shown sees a bit OTT to me .
We leaving the EU not leaving for Mars.


----------



## JANICE199

Lurcherlad said:


> I think many Brits have felt downtrodden and overruled for too long.
> 
> They got an opportunity to make a stand and they took it.
> 
> Westminster should take note!


*So true. Sadly i can't see any government taking note though.*


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> No , you *don't* know that all racist svoted out .
> 
> There's a petition for another referendum already . Everybody loves democracy except when the vote goes against them.
> 
> BTW I've asked around on line if my asian neighbours who voted leave are racist . I'm looking forward to the replies though no one has so far .





simplysardonic said:


> This has worried me more than anything, I have friends who have voted to leave & they are definitely not racist or right wing, I wouldn't be friends with them if they were & I am upset that they are lumped into the same category when they have had completely different reasons for their choices.
> 
> ETA: My other half voted differently to me, & we've managed to stay married!


Please dont think I was suggesting everyone who voted out is racist, because I most certainly don't think that. We have really good friends who voted out, and they certainly aren't. But all the racists - UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, EDL were campaigning hard for brexit. And literally the ONLY people abroad now congratulating us are the far right. We should be very worried by this.

(glad you & your hubby are friends SS lol Families shouldnt fall out over politics or money! Isnt that a saying? Or have I made it up! lol)


----------



## simplysardonic

noushka05 said:


> Please dont think I was suggesting everyone who voted out is racist, because I most certainly don't think that. We have really good friends who voted out, and they certainly aren't. But all the racists - UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, EDL were campaigning hard for brexit. And literally the ONLY people abroad now congratulating us are the far right. We should be very worried by this.
> 
> (glad you & your hubby are friends SS lol Families shouldnt fall out over politics or money! Isnt that a saying? Or have I made it up! lol)


Oh I 100% agree with you Noush, I was more referring to Nicky's post about all the 'leave' voters being racists.

The far right have seized on it as an excuse for gloating, Britain First as usual have been particularly vocal (if not especially eloquent) on the subject in the last 12 hours or so.

But I wouldn't expect anything less from people that didn't even offer condolences on Jo Cox's death, instead preferring to behave like school kids who've been caught shoplifting in their desperation to be disassociate with the crime.

And that last sentence, my dad always had a saying 'As a general rule, you should never discuss religion, sex or politics at a dinner party.' I think he had a point!


----------



## emmaviolet

Noush, I likened it to all thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs!

So all racists voted out, but not all out voters are racists.


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> Noush, I likened it to all thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs!
> 
> So all racists voted out, but not all out voters are racists.


I like that comparison! lol Thats exactly what I was trying to say Emma x


----------



## noushka05

First Farage says it was a 'mistake, to say £350M will be spent on NHS. Then Daniel Hannan states people expecting immigration to fall will be disappointed. And its only day 1:Wideyed


----------



## Calvine

Any guesses on which of the remaining countries will start wanting a referendum of their own? I'm thinking Denmark or Netherlands (but I don't know why I think that).


----------



## Calvine

There's apparently a petition now for a second referendum as this was a close call. We might spend for ever having referenda if we aren't careful!


----------



## Jesthar

I've heard some reports that Sinn Fein are making noises on reuniting Ireland


----------



## Pappychi

Calvine said:


> There's apparently a petition now for a second referendum as this was a close call. We might spend for ever having referenda if we aren't careful!


We'll end up doing the Hokey Cokey. In. Out. In. Out. Shake it all about.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Nicky10 said:


> And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.
> 
> Can't wait to see all the hospitals, oh wait, that was already forgotten


 I'm neither angry nor a racist but I'm mighty glad we are going to be standing on our own two feet again without the EU telling us what to do and what to think.


----------



## Colliebarmy

"Nicky10 said: ↑
And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.

Can't wait to see all the hospitals, oh wait, that was already forgotten"


----------



## Colliebarmy

Angry? no, happy as larry

Racist? no, ive a Welsh friend


----------



## MollySmith

ouesi said:


> Yes, Trump is a worry for us for sure, not sure Clinton is much better...
> 
> I didn't say I was worried, I said from the outside looking in, it looks frankly quite shocking. And the vote was so close, it has clearly divided the country nearly in half.
> 
> *You basically have just as many people unhappy as you do happy with the result. That's not a healthy place for the country to be regardless of the result of the vote*.


I agree. Thank you for the observation, there are many who are upset and worried.

It feels like a very different country here today and not a very green and pleasant land at all.
At work (a global publishing house) we're all still stunned. With the exception of one person in our team of 50, we have voted remain. This I think speaks a lot about where we live and work, in a place that has benefited so much from EU investment and perhaps an investment bubble - affluent maybe. I admit a bit cut off and complacent. I suppose that if one lived somewhere that has no investment or benefit they would vote leave, why not. But the work done in Cambridge in medicine, research and science does benefit the wider population - indeed the world.That is hugely at risk now because those implications were lost in the hubbub of the bigger stuff.

The votes show the economic divides. This is one of many hidden implications that will only be realised in the near future. Much like Nigel Farage's admission that the investment in the NHS statement was a mistake. This was on UK television this morning. The first of many lies I feel. What worries me most is the 'I'm alright Jack and sod the rest' attitude. Tellingly 75% of voters who are a year away from voting age, said they would have voted to remain.

I appreciate that the vote out'rs will be victorious today but they need to pay extremely close attention to what actually has been voted for as the remain votes are doing. For me it sums up how unaware we are as a country of each other, from the people next door to the crippling economic problems that causes people from downturned areas to vote leave to pioneering hidden stuff that maybe affected but wasn't shouted about. It's all very well people claiming 'Great Britian' but much of what has made us great has been EU funded like life saving cures in Cambridge.

We do not have any excuse to not speak to each other and listen. But I feel that PF General Chat reflects the country - lots shouting, blaming, assumptions and very little listening. It makes me so sad. One side always had to lose but we could at least be kinder about it and we all take a responsibility in this. What concerns me more is that people are genuinely anxious and fearful and there is a huge lack of compassion. We should be mindful of people's mental health and valid concerns.


----------



## Dogloverlou

I do think there is some truth to it being a 'class' divide too. The majority of the counties that voted to remain are affluent and not as 'hard done by' ( as in some people's opinions ) and vice versa with those big votes to leave from 'working class' counties.

( Hope I haven't offended with those definitions. Was just something I heard a lot of last night, and could see the pattern myself emerging. I at least was not aware of such a divide so I found it very interesting and sad tbh )


----------



## emmaviolet

Dogloverlou said:


> I do think there is some truth to it being a 'class' divide too. The majority of the counties that voted to remain are affluent and not as 'hard done by' ( as in some people's opinions ) and vice versa with those big votes to leave from 'working class' counties.
> 
> ( Hope I haven't offended with those definitions. Was just something I heard a lot of last night, and could see the pattern myself emerging )


Edited, Lol, got it the wrong way round, never mind!


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> Things can and will get better and Britain can put the word Great in front of Britain again.
> 
> Today is the beginning of a new future, an independent future and a positive future a future for Great Britain.


Totally agree with you stockwell cat. I think it's obvious the pound would drop, it will recover given time, when things settle down. As it has done before.


----------



## Honeys mum

Calvine said:


> Any guesses on which of the remaining countries will start wanting a referendum of their own? I'm thinking Denmark or Netherlands (but I don't know why I think that).


I heard on the T.V. this morning, that the Netherlands & France want a referendum now.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> First Farage says it was a 'mistake, to say £350M will be spent on NHS. Then Daniel Hannan states people expecting immigration to fall will be disappointed. And its only day 1:Wideyed


It was said on T.V. also this morning, that nothing will change, until we are actually out of the E.U. Which I'm sure you know, could take up to two years. 
Only time will tell.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> It was said on T.V. also this morning, that nothing will change, until we are actually out of the E.U. Which I'm sure you know, could take up to two years.
> Only time will tell.


Don't forget:
Sweden
Spain
Greece
These countries also want out of EU


----------



## Guest

Regardless of your stance, I thought this was funny.


----------



## Calvine

Nicky10 said:


> And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.


@Nicky10: Why is one racist to want out of the EU? Farage has a German wife so I cannot understand why he is accused of racism; and Boris Johnson has immigrant ancestors. Like many other people they realise that immigration has undoubted benefits as long as it is controlled.


----------



## Jesthar

Honeys mum said:


> It was said on T.V. also this morning, that nothing will change, until we are actually out of the E.U. Which I'm sure you know, could take up to two years.
> Only time will tell.


I thought it would take a _minimum_ of two years? As that is the minimum notice period for leaving the EU?


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> Any guesses on which of the remaining countries will start wanting a referendum of their own? I'm thinking Denmark or Netherlands (but I don't know why I think that).





stockwellcat said:


> Don't forget:
> Sweden
> Spain
> Greece
> These countries also want out of EU


I have it on very good authority that the majority of French people want out, at least in one area they do. The powers that be of course do not



Dogloverlou said:


> The majority of the counties that voted to remain are affluent and not as 'hard done by' ( as in some people's opinions ) and vice versa with those big votes to leave from 'working class' counties.


Odd I thought the South East of the country voted out and they were seen as affluent


----------



## emmaviolet

Calvine said:


> @Nicky10: Why is one racist to want out of the EU? Farage has a German wife so I cannot understand why he is accused of racism; and Boris Johnson has immigrant ancestors. Like many other people they realise that immigration has undoubted benefits as long as it is controlled.


'I'm not racist, I cannot be racist, my best friend is black' say a huge number of racists.

Ironically, today one of the top things the UK is googling is 'what is the EU', possibly something many people should have been doing for the many months we have had in which to make up our minds, not leave it until it's too late and question what we have done, as is reported in the DM, people who voted leave and now regret it as they thought their vote wouldn't count.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> @Nicky10: Why is one racist to want out of the EU? Farage has a German wife so I cannot understand why he is accused of racism; and Boris Johnson has immigrant ancestors. Like many other people they realise that immigration has undoubted benefits as long as it is controlled.


Descendents of immigrants realise that immigration has to be controlled. Slough voted Leave, high percentage of Asian voters , high percentage of Polish who weren't eligible to vote in the referendum.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> 'I'm not racist, I cannot be racist, my best friend is black' say a huge number of racists.


Isn't it racist to assume that all racists are white? You're not aware that Asian and black gangs fight each other . You're not aware that Asians and Blacks are racist to whites?


----------



## Jesthar

Quite a slew of reports and comments kicking around now about people who voted Leave for a laugh as they thought Remain was bound to win, and are now starting to feel a bit shellshocked...


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> Isn't it racist to assume that all racists are white?


I don't believe all racists are white in the slightest, I am just repeating what I have heard many a time from racists.


----------



## Lurcherlad

noushka05 said:


> Please dont think I was suggesting everyone who voted out is racist, because I most certainly don't think that. We have really good friends who voted out, and they certainly aren't. But all the racists - UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, EDL were campaigning hard for brexit. And literally the ONLY people abroad now congratulating us are the far right. We should be very worried by this.
> 
> (glad you & your hubby are friends SS lol Families shouldnt fall out over politics or money! Isnt that a saying? Or have I made it up! lol)


But all those groups are still a very small minority in this country compared to the rest of us.


----------



## emmaviolet

Jesthar said:


> Quite a slew of reports and comments kicking around now about people who voted Leave for a laugh as they thought Remain was bound to win, and are now starting to feel a bit shellshocked...


I was shell shocked just this minute watching BBC news with a report from Hartlepool, who didn't really know why they voted out and some who barely knew anything about it, yet voted out.

A very worrying time.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> I don't believe all racists are white in the slightest, I am just repeating what I have heard many a time from racists.


Don't you ? You meet these racists in real life ? If they are not white , why are they saying I'm not racist my best friend is black .


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Isn't it racist to assume that all racists are white? You're not aware that Asian and black gangs fight each other . You're not aware that Asians and Blacks are racist to whites?


@kimthecat: Totally agree with you, also, as a white person you are more likely to be accused of racism than a black or Asian even if you made an identical comment.


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> Don't you ? You meet these racists in real life ? If they are not white , why are they saying I'm not racist my best friend is black .


Yes, I have met them and not every non black person is white either.

However, the two people who were accused of being racist and that typical excuse used, were actually, white.


----------



## Biffo

I feel it's quite sad really. For me personally, aside from the ramifications of the U.K. Leaving the EU, I've found out that some people I used to like and respect are actually ignorant racists. It's like the vote to leave has made them feel it's ok to be publicly racist and xenophobic now. 

I'm not saying at all that I think that all those who voted leave are racists, I'm only talking about a few individuals I know personally.


----------



## emmaviolet

A possible small glimmer of hope for fellow remainers on here.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...cle-50-lisbon-treaty-referendum-david-cameron

There is a possibility we may not leave, there is to be a period of negotiation before article 50 can be triggered and this is to last at least six months, in which time the EU could make another offer or offer another referendum.

Then of of curse it has to go through parliament, with the number of MP's wanting to stay in currently at 75%.


----------



## Jesthar

Biffo said:


> I feel it's quite sad really. For me personally, aside from the ramifications of the U.K. Leaving the EU, I've found out that some people I used to like and respect are actually ignorant racists. It's like the vote to leave has made them feel it's ok to be publicly racist and xenophobic now.


I did wonder if things like that might happen. I hope we don't start to see a return to the open assaults of some previous decades, that really would be a step backwards in so many ways.


----------



## FeelTheBern

Calvine said:


> @Nicky10: Why is one racist to want out of the EU? Farage has a German wife so I cannot understand why he is accused of racism; and Boris Johnson has immigrant ancestors. Like many other people they realise that immigration has undoubted benefits as long as it is controlled.


Boris himself is actually an immigrant, a quick google search reveals that he was actually born in New York, USA.


----------



## kimthecat

Emmaviolet


> 'I'm not racist, I cannot be racist, my best friend is black' say a huge number of racists.





emmaviolet said:


> Yes, I have met them and not every non black person is white either.
> However, the two people who were accused of being racist and that typical excuse used, were actually, white.


You have met a huge number of racists? 
yes , i know not every non black person is white. As i mentioned in my post , some Asian and blacks hate each other .

Not clear which two white people you mean , ? You post was in reply to Niki , she mentioned Boris and cam .
So you know them and you heard them say that my best friend is black ? You move in illustrious circles!


----------



## Hanwombat

emmaviolet said:


> A possible small glimmer of hope for fellow remainers on here.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...cle-50-lisbon-treaty-referendum-david-cameron
> 
> There is a possibility we may not leave, there is to be a period of negotiation before article 50 can be triggered and this is to last at least six months, in which time the EU could make another offer or offer another referendum.
> 
> Then of of curse it has to go through parliament, with the number of MP's wanting to stay in currently at 75%.


Was there much point to having a referendum then if theres the possibly of the majority vote being overturned?


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> You have met a huge number of racists? yes i know not every non black person is white. As i mentioned in my post , some Asian and blacks hate each other .
> 
> Not clear which two white people you mean , ? You post was in reply to Niki , she mentioned Boris and cam .
> So you know them and you heard them say that my best friend is black ? You move in illustrious circles!


Yes, I have spent a lot of time in certain places in Essex that are considered very racist and spent very many hours in the company of racists, all white, I may add.

Of course there is racism between all different races.

I was meaning Boris and Nigel, as mentioned and yes, the excuse was used, not by them but by others on here about them, they have a foreign wife or ancestry. And finally, yes I have met a certain number of them, but never heard them say as much, again, that was targeted at the previous posts.


----------



## StrawberryBlonde

I am still in shock. Old people screwing the younger generation over because they 'want their country back'. I cant believe the amount of people who voted leave & are now saying they change their minds & didn't think their vote would count :Banghead Best of 3 perhaps?
A vote to leave is a vote against wildlife, the EU Habitats Directive is so important in protecting vulnerable & important species. Who knows if we will adopt something similar. I am an ecologist so no Habitats Directive may mean no job for me...thanks Britain.


----------



## emmaviolet

Hanwombat said:


> Was there much point to having a referendum then if theres the possibly of the majority vote being overturned?


It wasn't ratified or legally binding, like a general election and we are so entwined with the EU that it's hard to just cut ties and walk away. This was to gauge people's opinions, but not legally.

Considering Boris seems likely for PM and he was actually on the side of remain a few months ago, it isn't entirely crazy to think that he may be tempted with an offer or go in trying to negotiate something.


----------



## Calvine

Dogloverlou said:


> I do think there is some truth to it being a 'class' divide too.


@Dogloverlou: I think there must be, too. I did read several times that (quote) the people most likely to vote out were _white _working class.


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> I have it on very good authority that the majority of French people want out, at least in one area they do. The powers that be of course do not
> 
> Odd I thought the South East of the country voted out and they were seen as affluent


Cambridge voted remain.

and @Calvine our city has a very broad demographic from many cultures due to the nature of the science and medical research and the university. I work for the latter and we've had several emails from heads of departments and researches today. We'll find out more about the implications in the following weeks but I know that a medical research partnership with the Welcom Trust has been pulled because of the vote. Small things - big effects and none of them taken into account.


----------



## MollySmith

StrawberryBlonde said:


> I am still in shock. Old people screwing the younger generation over because they 'want their country back'. I cant believe the amount of people who voted leave & are now saying they change their minds & didn't think their vote would count :Banghead Best of 3 perhaps?
> A vote to leave is a vote against wildlife, the EU Habitats Directive is so important in protecting vulnerable & important species. Who knows if we will adopt something similar. I am an ecologist so no Habitats Directive may mean no job for me...thanks Britain.


Not liking because you may lose your job (I do hope not) but that I echo the sentiment. According to Google, the term 'EU' has been searched more by Britons post vote than before...


----------



## FeelTheBern

My question is: When Cameron resigns, who will take over the duty of prime minister? I hear rumors that Theresa May could become PM.


----------



## Colliebarmy

anyone got a loan for the EU?


----------



## Colliebarmy

FeelTheBern said:


> My question is: When Cameron resigns, who will take over the duty of prime minister? I hear rumors that Theresa May could become PM.


Boris


----------



## HollynSmudge

StrawberryBlonde said:


> I am still in shock. Old people screwing the younger generation over because they 'want their country back'. I cant believe the amount of people who voted leave & are now saying they change their minds & didn't think their vote would count :Banghead Best of 3 perhaps?
> A vote to leave is a vote against wildlife, the EU Habitats Directive is so important in protecting vulnerable & important species. Who knows if we will adopt something similar. I am an ecologist so no Habitats Directive may mean no job for me...thanks Britain.


I have the same concern (not an ecologist but I care deeply about the environment and wildlife) people would rather their energy bill was 5 quid cheaper a year than help conserve the small amount of wildlife we have left it seems...

The age and vote correlation is also pretty shocking :/


----------



## FeelTheBern

Colliebarmy said:


> anyone got a loan for the EU?


A small loan of a billion euros?


----------



## Fleur

One question? Before anything happens article 50 has to be evoked then there is up to (possibly more) 2 years of negotiations - but that still doesn't mean we will exit then does it? Part of the agreement could be time scales in which we will withdraw from the EU? 
So does this mean we have no idea when economic stability will return? Why would any country want to invest in the UK during this time of uncertainty? 
Ok I admit this is more than one question


----------



## HollynSmudge

Fleur said:


> One question? Before anything happens article 50 has to be evoked then there is up to (possibly more) 2 years of negotiations - but that still doesn't mean we will exit then does it? Part of the agreement could be time scales in which we will withdraw from the EU?
> So does this mean we have no idea when economic stability will return? Why would any country want to invest in the UK during this time of uncertainty?
> Ok I admit this is more than one question


Doesn't matter we have "taken our country back" /sarcasm -_-
Seriously though I have no idea and it scares me.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Upcoming risky events in Europe: 
Brexit to be followed by Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Fruckoff. Czechout. Oustria. Finish. Slovlong. Latervia. Byegium, until EU reach the state of Germlonely.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> Yes, I have spent a lot of time in certain places in Essex that are considered very racist and spent very many hours in the company of racists, all white, I may add.


 Why is that ? Is it to do with your work or something? So you don't have any experience of other racism?



> I was meaning Boris and Nigel, as mentioned and yes, the excuse was used, not by them but by others on here about them, they have a foreign wife or ancestry. And finally, yes I have met a certain number of them, but never heard them say as much, again, that was targeted at the previous posts.


We have immigrants of all races here and from all countries , If white MPs want to limit migration and white people such as Eastern Europeans are included in that limit, why is that racist . ? If black and asian people want to limit migrants and include white people in that , are they racist?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Fleur said:


> One question? Before anything happens article 50 has to be evoked then there is up to (possibly more) 2 years of negotiations - but that still doesn't mean we will exit then does it? Part of the agreement could be time scales in which we will withdraw from the EU?
> So does this mean we have no idea when economic stability will return? Why would any country want to invest in the UK during this time of uncertainty?
> Ok I admit this is more than one question


We have two years once article 50 is evoked and if after two years no deal is agreed to time can be extended or we walk away with no deal. Either way we will be leaving the EU. The language coming from the EU today, Junker wants the UK to evoke article 50 asap but it will take time realistically to devoice ourselves from the EU (so to speak) as there is 40 years of history.


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> Why is that ? Is it to do with your work or something? So you don't have any experience of other racism?
> 
> We have immigrants of all races here and from all countries , If white MPs want to limit migration and white people such as Eastern Europeans are included in that limit, why is that racist . ? If black and asian people want to limit migrants and include white people in that , are they racist?


Yes, due to work mostly, there was an article recently where a woman went to the actual town it was in a full burka and received a lot of racism.

Sometimes it's not always racism, but most likely xenophobia.


----------



## Fleur

stockwellcat said:


> We have two years once article 50 is evoked and if after two years no deal is agreed to time can be extended or we walk away with no deal. Either way we will be leaving the EU. The language coming from the EU today it seems they want us to exit asap to stop other countries calling a referendum. Junker wants the UK to evoke article 50 asap but it will take time realistically to devoice ourselves from the EU as there is 40 years of history.


I understand it is up to 2 years to negotiate our leaving - but negotiations can be extended if all 27 other states agree.
And I understand the deadline to be for negotiations - not a date for us to leave but a date that negotiations will be completed. Who is to say when our final exit will be.
I understand Germany want to make a quick and mutually beneficial trade deal and that the president of the EU (is that the correct term?) has stated he wants a quick exit but again all 27 states have to be in agreement. our parliament has to go through 80,000 pages of laws and legislation to decide which ones we want to keep and get the agreement of the EU in the process - I can't see this being a quick turnaround and in the meantime I seriously doubt any countries would want to invest in an unknown quantity the UK is until all is finalised. 
I really hope I am proved wrong and everything is sorted quickly and smoothly - the majority won after all we are a democracy (something I am very proud about)


----------



## Jazmine

I keep seeing sentiments such as, "It's time we took our country back". "This is our island to reclaim" etc etc.

Can I ask those uttering such statements, why are you so keen to have a country that looks inwards? What is this obsession with "looking after our own?" Our own? Who are they exactly? Englishmen? Brits? Europeans? Residents of Earth?

Irrespective of the outcome of this vote, I am saddened that so many of us only care about what happens on our own front step. Sod everyone else.


----------



## Jesthar

Jazmine said:


> I keep seeing sentiments such as, "It's time we took our country back". "This is our island to reclaim" etc etc.
> 
> Can I ask those uttering such statements, why are you so keen to have a country that looks inwards? What is this obsession with "looking after our own?" Our own? Who are they exactly? Englishmen? Brits? Europeans? Residents of Earth?
> 
> Irrespective of the outcome of this vote, I am saddened that so many of us only care about what happens on our own front step. Sod everyone else.


What I was trying to work out how to say!

And can I add, what do those phrases even _mean_, anyway? It can't be a reference to EU laws, as that only accounts for 13% of our legislation, and most of that is concerned with higher level issues such as equality, health and safety, and human and animal welfare. Unless people are stull hung up on arguments about bananas and fishermans hair nets - which, of course, were never actually laws in the first place


----------



## Jazmine

Jesthar said:


> What I was trying to work out how to say!
> 
> And can I add, what do those phrases even _mean_, anyway? It can't be a reference to EU laws, as that only accounts for 13% of our legislation, and most of that is concerned with higher level issues such as equality, health and safety, and human and animal welfare. Unless people are stull hung up on arguments about bananas and fishermans hair nets - which, of course, were never actually laws in the first place


I just wish people would realise, those lines on the maps, they're not real. They are drawn on. We are all the same, we should be looking out for each other, irrespective of where we live.


----------



## rona

Jazmine said:


> I just wish people would realise, those lines on the maps, they're not real. They are drawn on. We are all the same, we should be looking out for each other, irrespective of where we live.


Tell that to the fat cats in power.........................


----------



## Jazmine

rona said:


> Tell that to the fat cats in power.........................


I'm not talking about the fat cats. I don't care about politicians and their lies. I'm talking about the voters who I have heard echo those sentiments day in day out since this campaign began. It would seem it is not just politicians who are only out for themselves.


----------



## MollySmith

Jazmine said:


> I keep seeing sentiments such as, "It's time we took our country back". "This is our island to reclaim" etc etc.
> 
> Can I ask those uttering such statements, why are you so keen to have a country that looks inwards? What is this obsession with "looking after our own?" Our own? Who are they exactly? Englishmen? Brits? Europeans? Residents of Earth?
> 
> Irrespective of the outcome of this vote, I am saddened that so many of us only care about what happens on our own front step. Sod everyone else.


Yes agree and I wonder who really wants this country anyway. The EU don't seem to want it much either. Great Britain, my arse. Nobody _owns_ this country.


----------



## rona

Jazmine said:


> I'm not talking about the fat cats. I don't care about politicians and their lies. I'm talking about the voters who I have heard echo those sentiments day in day out since this campaign began. It would seem it is not just politicians who are only out for themselves.


There was no mention of voters or even their views in the post of yours I quoted. It was just a personal statement from you


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> Yes, due to work mostly, there was an article recently where a woman went to the actual town it was in a full burka and received a lot of racism.
> .


 That's a shame .Poor woman 

There are many who assume that white people aren't Muslims . 
Islam is a religion , not a race and I think its racist to assume that all Muslins are black etc


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> That's a shame .Poor woman
> *
> There are many who assume that white people aren't Muslims .
> Islam is a religion , not a race and I think its racist to assume that all Muslins are black etc*


Yes, I know.


----------



## Jazmine

rona said:


> There was no mention of voters or even their views in the post of yours I quoted. It was just a personal statement from you


I am assuming you had read my first post which did refer to voters, as well as the one you had quoted. Apologies, I didn't realise we were here to nitpick.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Jazmine said:


> Irrespective of the outcome of this vote, I am saddened that so many of us only care about what happens on our own front step. Sod everyone else.


Is it any surprise?

In the last 10 years (about the time so many migrants started rolling up here) the welfare state has been crippled, the benefits squeeze and sanctions on DSS payments, the NHS snowed under with extra patients, schools full to bursting and a total lack of welfare housing, it cant be coincidence can it, as soon as the Tories got in they got the blame but it started under Blair and Brown, lets stabilise the country's operating systems and finances, instigate proper border controls (like Australia) and then we can do our bit for refugees (genuine ones, not just job seekers)


----------



## stockwellcat.

The leave voters managed to achieve what the majority of the UK wanted. Surprising everyone including me as we didn't think it was achievable.

The remain voters have responded to the referendum results with alot if negativity and verbal aggression.

We aren't having another referendum so we all have to live with the results.

It will be nice if now we could all come together in light of the results of the referendum and work together to make the exit from EU beneficial for everyone in the UK. The MPs need to also get together and sort themselves out. Cross party talks need to now take place and essentially talks in the EU so we get a good deal.

Arguing, sniping at each other, name calling each other and going I was right is only going to inflame the situation.

Lets all be sensible and work on the new future the majority of the UK people voted for.


----------



## kimthecat

I can't live, if living is without EU,
Can't give , can't give anymore.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I can't live, if living is without EU,
> Can't give , can't give anymore.



This song will be number one in the UK charts next week.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calais tell Britain to take back control of your border:
http://news.sky.com/story/1717209/calais-tells-britain-take-back-your-border


----------



## Jazmine

Colliebarmy said:


> Is it any surprise?
> 
> In the last 10 years (about the time so many migrants started rolling up here) the welfare state has been crippled, the benefits squeeze and sanctions on DSS payments, the NHS snowed under with extra patients, schools full to bursting and a total lack of welfare housing, it cant be coincidence can it, as soon as the Tories got in they got the blame but it started under Blair and Brown, lets stabilise the country's operating systems and finances, instigate proper border controls (like Australia) and then we can do our bit for refugees (genuine ones, not just job seekers)


So prior to 10 years ago there was no such thing as immigration? Really? People have been migrating all over the world since the dawn of time. My parents were migrants from India in the 60s. (Shock! Horror!) Like it or not, even for many of the so called "indigenous" people of Britain, if they cared to look back a few generations, they would find immigrants in their own ancestry. And it works both ways, off the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen of my British friends who now work abroad. Maybe we'd better take them back before we "secure our border?" I have no issue with a fair number of Leave voters, however, statements such as yours make the real issues get lost in a sea of bile and misinformation.

I'm sorry, but immigration is nothing new, despite what the media claims. And if you think today's result is going to put an end to it, I think you will be disappointed.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

While I don't believe for a second that everyone who voted Leave is a racist, it's sad that the only comments I have heard from Leave voters today (IRL, not on here) have included statements like 'it's time we got rid of them all'. 

I did not respond to any of them by asking who they mean by 'them' but the context suggests to me that they meant immigrants. It's a shocking attitude and I am glad it is not representative of all Leave voters. I am a third generation immigrant. I hope I don't count as 'them'; but then I'm sure I won't because I have an English accent.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Having said that, while I am English (born in London to two London-born parents), my name is not. And you may or may not be surprised by the casual racism I have encountered in my life purely because of my name. People who have not met me have made assumptions about how I will look or speak, based on the fact my name is Middle Eastern. Mad, isn't it?


----------



## MCWillow

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Having said that, while I am English (born in London to two London-born parents), my name is not. And you may or may not be surprised by the casual racism I have encountered in my life purely because of my name. People who have not met me have made assumptions about how I will look or speak, based on the fact my name is Middle Eastern. Mad, isn't it?


I didnt know you name was Middle Eastern - I just thought it was a cool name and was well happy that I was pronouncing it correctly 

My great great nan was Irish (dont know what part of Ireland) and my great great grandad was German. They moved to London, and subsequent family were Londoners.

I would have voted Out, but was too ill and in too much pain to actually go and vote. Me and D would have cancelled each other out, as he was an In voter. As it was, the In voters got an extra vote because i have a bad back!

We still love each other, respect each other, and like each other.

All this hatred thrown at people with opposite opinions has confounded me. 

I had my reason for wanting to vote out but racism and xenophobia were definitely not in that list.


----------



## Hanwombat

My dads side dads side were Irish and my dads mum was French.. and my surname is Scottish.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> @Nicky10: Why is one racist to want out of the EU? Farage has a German wife so I cannot understand why he is accused of racism; and Boris Johnson has immigrant ancestors. Like many other people they realise that immigration has undoubted benefits as long as it is controlled.


I can't speak for Nicky (I've already done that! lol) but no, you don't have to be racist to want out of the EU. But Farage & Johnson have both engaged in xenophobic campaigns. Scapegoating migrants for pretty much everything, telling blatant untruths is all their campaigns had to offer. They are a disgrace.. This has definitely fanned the flames of prejudice & sadly racism has become mainstream. An ex member of the BNP was one of the leave camps biggest donors, this shows just the vile types attracted by their hatemongering.

And Farages wife is a different nationality not a different race lol



Lurcherlad said:


> But all those groups are still a very small minority in this country compared to the rest of us.


They are, but I've been shocked by some of the things I've heard from ordinary people, people I know. The far-right here & across Europe are celebrating these referendum results. Right wing extremism is on the rise across Europe again. Dangerous times ahead indeed.


----------



## KittenKong

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Everyone I have met this morning has greeted with the words ...did you hear, the Leave has won ...in kind of hushed tones as if no one can quite believe it ....


I knew Leave would win as soon as The Sun backed them, however I was very surprised at some of the results in the traditionally Labour strongholds of the North of England.


----------



## noushka05

Colliebarmy said:


> Is it any surprise?
> 
> In the last 10 years (about the time so many migrants started rolling up here) the welfare state has been crippled, the benefits squeeze and sanctions on DSS payments, the NHS snowed under with extra patients, schools full to bursting and a total lack of welfare housing, it cant be coincidence can it, as soon as the Tories got in they got the blame but it started under Blair and Brown, lets stabilise the country's operating systems and finances, instigate proper border controls (like Australia) and then we can do our bit for refugees (genuine ones, not just job seekers)


Don't facts interest you at all? When labour left office the NHS was in surplus - now its in massive deficit. That has nothing whatsoever to do with migrants. And everything to do with Cameron & his rotten government. Cameron is deliberately underfunding & privatising it. Did you actually think leaving the EU would make things better?. Now the ultra right wing brexiteers have their hands on it - its finished - unless we all unite & fight to save it.

Who will you blame when its gone? You wont be able to blame labour or immigration or the EU now, will you 

Don't tell me you fell for this rubbish?? It was just a 'mistake' !


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I knew Leave would win as soon as The Sun backed them, however I was very surprised at some of the results in the traditionally Labour strongholds of the North of England.


Have you seen how they celebrated? With Billy Charlton a Combat18 Nazi on their front page.


----------



## Honeys mum

What David Cameron 'told inner circle after Brexit win' | UK | News | Daily Express


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Have you seen how they celebrated? With Billy Charlton a Combat18 Nazi on their front page.]


Didn't see that, I couldn't bring myself to look at any front pages. I'm surprised the headline wasn't, "It's the Sun wot won it".......


----------



## CuddleMonster

I've got good friends who voted leave for non-racist reasons and are very upset that people are assuming they are racist. But I've heard far more leavers boasting that now they can 'get rid' of foreigners/immigrants. Bizarrely, some of them have relatives living abroad...I hope they will be happy for their family members to be 'got rid of' too.

@Ceiling Kitty your story about people's assumptions reminded me of an Egyptian friend who moved to the UK when he was 2. He said people always assumed he spoke no English and who would do the typical British thing of speaking very LOUDLY and slowly...he'd look at them blankly, so they spoke even more loudly and slowly...and would then respond in a broad Mancunian accent  He said he loved seeing their reactions


----------



## Goblin

Well good luck UK. Hard times ahead I suspect as you try to repair the divisions this referendum has caused. Time for messages like the one Nicola Sturgeon posted on her facebook page:



> I want to take the opportunity this morning to speak directly to citizens of other European countries living here in Scotland - you remain welcome here, Scotland is your home and your contribution is valued"


I think the Financial Times summed everything up:


----------



## emmaviolet

Goblin, your post has made me very, very sad, excellent as it was.


----------



## Jazmine

Ceiling Kitty said:


> While I don't believe for a second that everyone who voted Leave is a racist, it's sad that the only comments I have heard from Leave voters today (IRL, not on here) have included statements like 'it's time we got rid of them all'.
> 
> I did not respond to any of them by asking who they mean by 'them' but the context suggests to me that they meant immigrants. It's a shocking attitude and I am glad it is not representative of all Leave voters. I am a third generation immigrant. I hope I don't count as 'them'; but then I'm sure I won't because I have an English accent.


Exactly, the Leave campaign had many reasons for wanting to break away from the EU, yet immigration is the main thing voters seem to tout as their reason for voting. For that reason, yesterday was a sad day.


----------



## MiloandTazzy

Couldn't agree with your post more Goblin, 75% of 18-24 year olds wanted to remain, including my daughter. The young are feeling very disenfranchised.


----------



## emmaviolet

This is ironic.

I live in a fairly openly racist area at times, sadly.

Me and my mother are very dark, dark hair and very ans eyes and tan naturally quite nicely.
Turkish and greek people and spanish usually ask us which part we are from. We're not, actually our family can be traced back in Wisbich through the gravestones to the opening of it.

Anyway, a man at the bus stop while walking Alfie said how glad he was about the result and did we vote, my Mother lied and said we didn't as it was so confusing, she felt ill placed to judge it. He then replied with, well you would wouldn't you, considering. We had no idea so asked him considering what? He said, well you know, us, no we don't know, well, you're not really from here are you, your clearly part foreign.
To which we replied with, not that it matters, but we are British by birth and generations back.

It does make you laugh. What are the true blue Brits afraid of?


----------



## rona

Just listened to Lord Digby Jones on BBC1 you know the one. British businessman and politician, who has been Director General of the CBI and Minister of State for Trade and Investment.
I think some of you doom and gloom merchants that are trying to make their predictions come true by talking our country down, should go and have a look see at what he says


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Well good luck UK. Hard times ahead I suspect as you try to repair the divisions this referendum has caused. Time for messages like the one Nicola Sturgeon posted on her facebook page:
> 
> I think the Financial Times summed everything up:


Whatever.


----------



## KittenKong

emmaviolet said:


> This is ironic.
> 
> I live in a fairly openly racist area at times, sadly.
> 
> Me and my mother are very dark, dark hair and very ans eyes and tan naturally quite nicely.
> Turkish and greek people and spanish usually ask us which part we are from. We're not, actually our family can be traced back in Wisbich through the gravestones to the opening of it.
> 
> Anyway, a man at the bus stop while walking Alfie said how glad he was about the result and did we vote, my Mother lied and said we didn't as it was so confusing, she felt ill placed to judge it. He then replied with, well you would wouldn't you, considering. We had no idea so asked him considering what? He said, well you know, us, no we don't know, well, you're not really from here are you, your clearly part foreign.
> To which we replied with, not that it matters, but we are British by birth and generations back.
> 
> It does make you laugh. What are the true blue Brits afraid of?


Having grown up in the North and South of England my accent is very mixed. I'm often mistaken for being Welsh down South and Irish on moving back North to the place where I was born in the early 1980s. Despite never visiting Ireland this was the time of the troubles and often encountered hostile reactions from some, someone in a pub tried to pick a fight over this. I grew sick and tired of comments like, "You're not from here are you" which I still occasionally get but not often now as things became more tolerant.
All this referendum has done is to revert back to the bad old days.......


----------



## Satori

Jazmine said:


> Exactly, the Leave campaign had many reasons for wanting to break away from the EU, yet immigration is the main thing voters seem to tout as their reason for voting. For that reason, yesterday was a sad day.


I don't give a toss if people voted for the wrong reasons. So long as we got the right outcome.


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> Just listened to Lord Digby Jones on BBC1 you know the one. British businessman and politician, who has been Director General of the CBI and Minister of State for Trade and Investment.
> I think some of you doom and gloom merchants that are trying to make their predictions come true by talking our country down, should go and have a look see at what he says


I loved his interview. One of the good guys.


----------



## havoc

_the Leave campaign had many reasons for wanting to break away from the EU, yet immigration is the main thing voters seem to tout as their reason for voting._
I think people may be disappointed then. Just listened to a UKIP spokesman on the radio and he was saying they'd never said they were going to do anything to reduce immigration - what they wanted was 'control' and now they have it but it doesn't mean they'll do anything.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Some of us voted leave because we think the UK will be better off - *for* the sake of our children.

*Nobody* knows what was the right decision to make.

To suggest I have deliberately and knowingly hung my child out to dry "cos I hate foreigners" is laughable, at best!


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> And Farages wife is a different nationality not a different race lol


@nouschka05: are you being just a tiny bit ''precious'' here?


----------



## stockwellcat.

We are now on a journey of leaving the EU. This decision will not be overturned.

We should be celebrating as we got two good things out of this:
1) We voted to leave the EU.
2) Cameron is resigning.

Time to get on with things.

I am sorry the remain campaigners didn't get what they want but it's tough luck there isn't going to be another referendum on leaving the EU.


----------



## Jazmine

Thank you for summing my point up so very nicely my dear.

Bigotry is never the answer, no matter how justified you feel it is.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> We are now on a journey of leaving the EU. This decision will not be overturned.
> 
> We should be celebrating as we got two good things out of this:
> 1) We voted to leave the EU.
> 2) Cameron is resigning.
> 
> Time to get on with things.
> 
> I am sorry the remain campaigners didn't get what they want but it's tough luck.


Lets hope you outers have got it right .... time will tell


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat said:


> We are now on a journey of leaving the EU. This decision will not be overturned.
> 
> We should be celebrating as we got two good things out of this:
> 1) We voted to leave the EU.
> 2) Cameron is resigning.
> 
> Time to get on with things.
> 
> I am sorry the remain campaigners didn't get what they want but it's tough luck there isn't going to be another referendum.


What exactly is there to celebrate?
Judging from the news, we are becoming an ignorant nation who want to fence ourselves off from the world.

As we lose money from the EU and conservatives become more far right, the poor will be hit over and over again.

Cameron may be resigning, I've never been his fan, but at least he was voted in and at least we had a leader, whatever I thought of him. Right now we don't know who is going to step in and at a time when we are distancing ourselves from the world.

I really don't see a celebration.


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> Having grown up in the North and South of England my accent is very mixed. I'm often mistaken for being Welsh down South and Irish on moving back North to the place where I was born in the early 1980s. Despite never visiting Ireland this was the time of the troubles and often encountered hostile reactions from some, someone in a pub tried to pick a fight over this. I grew sick and tired of comments like, "You're not from here are you" which I still occasionally get but not often now as things became more tolerant.
> All this referendum has done is to revert back to the bad old days.......


It's awful isn't it.

I really like being mistaken for a different culture, I get all sorts, but actually I'm quite boring. But at this time, it's a bit worrying in all honesty.

My town is more out, we are under IDS, however we were put in a borough that voted remain. However this morning there has been an article in a prominent paper about my town and some completely racist and xenophobic remarks were made and proudly. I feel truly, truly ashamed and feel it's not somewhere I want to live any more.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If this wasn't a fair vote why then did the following happen:
1) Over 2,000 people put blank ballot sheets in the ballot box making these votes null and void.
2) Even though it said in bold writing on the ballot sheet put one x in the box next to what you are voting over 9,000 people put an x in both boxes making these votes null and void.
3) People said they voted leave as a joke and now want to change their vote. Tough as this has been counted as a vote to leave.
4) Loads of people did not bother voting.
5) Loads of people did not register to vote.

Yesterday and today there is alot of verbal aggression from the remain voters and even a petition online.

This was a once in a life time vote and won't happen again. Cameron did warn everyone.

This was a fair vote.


----------



## KittenKong

Indeed, so very true Emmaviolet. While I accept not everyone who voted leave is racist I've heard some say that the only reason why Remain did so well in London is due to it being full of foreigners.
Surely they couldn't be so narrow minded as to think no British people voted for Remain in these areas?!


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> Indeed, so very true Emmaviolet. While I accept not everyone who voted leave is racist I've heard some say that the only reason why Remain did so well in London is due to it being full of foreigners.
> Surely they couldn't be so narrow minded as to think no British people voted for Remain in these areas?!


I said exactly that this to a friend this morning .... I was joking! 

I also said that when Scotland breakaway from the UK, I'll be sending the MIL back! Again ..... I was joking (sort of )


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat said:


> If this wasn't a fair vote why then did the following happen:
> 1) Over 2,000 people put blank ballot sheets in the ballot box making these votes null and void.
> 2) Even though it said in bold writing on the ballot sheet put one x in the box next to what you are voting over 9,000 people put an x in both boxes making these votes null and void.
> 3) People said they voted leave as a joke and now want to change their vote. Tough as this has been counted as a vote to leave.
> 4) Loads of people did not bother voting.
> 5) Loads of people did not register to vote.
> 
> Yesterday and today there is alot of verbal aggression from the remain voters and even a petition online.
> 
> This was a once in a life time vote and won't happen again. Cameron did warn everyone.


There is an awful lot of abuse from the Brexit side too, lets be honest here.

We'll see if there is another vote, it may not be In and Out, but it could be a vote about the future and the EU.
Some people seem pretty ignorant of what it means to actually leave and the fact we as a ****ry will still have to follow a lot of the rules of the EU anyway, if we wish to trade with them, we just won't have a seat at the table any more.


----------



## havoc

_This was a once in a life time vote and won't happen again. Cameron did warn everyone._
He did but they didn't listen. Our problem now is that there's no plan on going forward. The campaign to leave was all about what we 'could' do with no clear picture about how to manage a UK outside the EU. Both major parties are moving towards the right with the Tory leadership up for grabs and moves to oust Corbyn by Labour opportunists. It doesn't bode well for the very people who thought leaving was the cure for all ills.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> _This was a once in a life time vote and won't happen again. Cameron did warn everyone._
> He did but they didn't listen. Our problem now is that there's no plan on going forward. The campaign to leave was all about what we 'could' do with no clear picture about how to manage a UK outside the EU. Both major parties are moving towards the right with the Tory leadership up for grabs and moves to oust Corbyn by Labour opportunists. It doesn't bode well for the very people who thought leaving was the cure for all ills.


Yes I am a leave voter but it is worrying the state Politian's are in at the moment with no real leadership and no one willing to step up to the mark and EU leaders wanting us to invoke article 50 asap without delay. It's a very worrying state of affairs. I just hope the Politian's sort themselves out and get a shadow government sorted so we can start the process of invoking article 50 so we can start negotiating Britain's exit from the EU.


----------



## Bisbow

Lurcherlad said:


> Some of us voted leave because we think the UK will be better off - *for* the sake of our children.
> 
> *Nobody* knows what was the right decision to make.
> 
> To suggest I have deliberately and knowingly hung my child out to dry "cos I hate foreigners" is laughable, at best!


I voted out in the hope that my grandchildren will have the freedom to choose their own way of life and not live under EU's laws and orders and if house prices fall they may be able to buy a home that's not the terrible price that is askes for the 2 bedroom rabbit hutches built near me.


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## havoc

_if house prices fall they may be able to buy a home_
If house prices fall it will be because it becomes difficult/more expensive to borrow money.


----------



## emmaviolet

Bisbow said:


> I voted out in the hope that my grandchildren will have the freedom to choose their own way of life and not live under EU's laws and orders and if house prices fall they may be able to buy a home that's not the terrible price that is askes for the 2 bedroom rabbit hutches built near me.


But they won't have the option to live or work in Europe, should that be what they choose.

What EU laws were you worried about for them? I'm just curious, as people keep pushing the line about them ruling us, but I don't know what rules it is that impact our day to day life at all.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> _This was a once in a life time vote and won't happen again. Cameron did warn everyone._
> He did but they didn't listen. Our problem now is that there's no plan on going forward. The campaign to leave was all about what we 'could' do with no clear picture about how to manage a UK outside the EU. Both major parties are moving towards the right with the Tory leadership up for grabs and moves to oust Corbyn by Labour opportunists. It doesn't bode well for the very people who thought leaving was the cure for all ills.


Yes, many were taken in by the patriotic enthusiasm of "Believing in Britain". It rather reminded me of the Falklands war and how Margaret Thatcher's Conservative Government became from perhaps the most unpopular government ever to a very popular one overnight through the patriotism displayed by the media.

EDIT- Not in any way criticising the brave people who fought in that conflict. Just doubt the media would've been so enthusiastic had it been a Labour Government in power.


----------



## Bisbow

emmaviolet said:


> But they won't have the option to live or work in Europe, should that be what they choose.
> l.


Of course they will, they will not be barred from Europe anymore than they would any other country, we have something called a passport. That remark is what I call scaremongering

If my grandson wants to be a fisherman he could only catch what the EU tell him too, if he wants to farm he will have to follow EU laws telling him how to do it
Just a couple of examples for you


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> People said they voted leave as a joke and now want to change their vote.


@stockwellcat: Yes, there were people yesterday in the paper saying they wish they had taken it more seriously...one said that ''they did not think their vote would count'', don't ask me why. I already posted that I was talking to a guy _at the door of the polling station who still had not made up his mind. _But he went in and voted. Well, I always assumed he did, maybe he put in a blank form. Or maybe he was the person who drew an erect penis in the ''remain'' space. (And yes, it was counted as a vote apparently).


----------



## emmaviolet

Bisbow said:


> Of course they will, they will not be barred from Europe anymore than they would any other country, we have something called a passport. That remark is what I call scaremongering
> 
> If my grandson wants to be a fisherman he could only catch what the EU tell him too, if he wants to farm he will have to follow EU laws telling him how to do it
> Just a couple of examples for you


I'm sorry but you must be mistaken as to what having a passport actually means.
A passport allows you to visit, not work and live there. Canada, US, Australia, you are allowed to visit, not live and work. When we close our borders, we will not have access to just go and live and work in Europe. It's not scaremongering, this is the truth of the matter. Of course they can visit, but they will not have free access to jobs abroad as we do now, it will be very restricted.

Oh, so fishing and farming, ok, those restrictions are there for a reason, usually the animals rights.


----------



## Bisbow

OK so I wonder how my friends two sons managed to get jobs in the USA and New Zealand then

The EU has ruined the fishing industry in this country and many farmers have gone out of business because of the EU, nothing to do with animal rights
Tell that to the fishermen competing with the Spanish factory ships


----------



## stockwellcat.

Those petitioning for a second EU referendum vote read these:

Cameron said no to a 2nd EU Referendum vote on 17th May 2016 http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-cameron-idUKKCN0Y81VK

The EU also said this wouldn't be allowed to happen.

Nearly 1 million people are going to be upset in Parliaments response to the current petition.


----------



## KittenKong

I'm going to try and think positively now. Perhaps a compromise will be reached where the UK take on board the Norway option of becoming a member of the EEA. This would retain the free movement of citizens which I'm sure will disappoint those who voted leave thinking it would, "get rid of the foreigners". It would also be of benefit to the economy through EU wide trade agreements.


----------



## emmaviolet

Bisbow said:


> OK so I wonder how my friends two sons managed to get jobs in the USA and New Zealand then
> 
> The EU has ruined the fishing industry in this country and many farmers have gone out of business because of the EU, nothing to do with animal rights
> Tell that to the fishermen competing with the Spanish factory ships


It is very, very hard to move to the USA and New Zealand, many visas are denied every day. Unless you have a special skill, you are not eligible to go over. A passport does not provide you with access to live anywhere you so wish, on this you are very mistaken.


----------



## Guest

emmaviolet said:


> It is very, very hard to move to the USA and New Zealand, many visas are denied every day. Unless you have a special skill, you are not eligible to go over. A passport does not provide you with access to live anywhere you so wish, on this you are very mistaken.


Or unless you work for an international company that has an office in that country. 
It's not like you can get a passport and then come to the US and work or go to school. You have to have a visa and there are strict rules about visas including having to go back to your home country for a certain amount of time.


----------



## Bisbow

OK I will concede the point about passports but you can still get jobs abroad if you want, you don't have to be a EU member but I still maintain the EU has much to answer for regarding our farmers and fishermen and the fact so many of them have lost their lively hood.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

One thing that really pees me off is other people whether they are politicians/journalists/forum members deciding why people voted in a particular way. Its quite patronising. Whatever the issues were that people voted on they have made their choice and we have a result so now we need to get on and organise our exit and start looking to the wider world not just Europe. If some people voted with immigration as their main influence (I believe some of the highest exit votes were in areas with high immigrant numbers where the vote was as high as 70% out) then its time to stop calling them names and start addressing their concerns, their views might be different to yours but they are as entitled to a say on the future of their lives/their children's lives and their communities as everyone else is. I am sick to death of politicians scare mongering, being negative and telling lies and I'm even more sick of the opinions of actors/actresses/singers/models/footballers/bloggers etc as they try to tell us what we should think and how we should vote. I wish memes and tweets had never been invented and the people would say what they mean and mean what they say.


----------



## havoc

_Perhaps a compromise will be reached where the UK take on board the Norway option of becoming a member of the EEA._
Doesn't Norway pay more per head into the EU than we do. I can't see how continuing to pay in, maybe at an increased rate, with no say in decisions is beneficial.


----------



## emmaviolet

Bisbow said:


> OK I will concede the point about passports but you can still get jobs abroad if you want, you don't have to be a EU member but I still maintain the EU has much to answer for regarding our farmers and fishermen and the fact so many of them have lost their lively hood.


But that's the thing, you will not be able to get jobs abroad like you could, or say they wanted to go to live in Spain and start up a little shop or bar or boating trip place. You just won't be able to, it will be more like the US, if you are not skilled or have something to offer, you cannot come over. A UK resident cannot just decide to go over to the US to open up a little shop or bar, this will be the same when we shut down our borders.

And that's the thing, you said you did it so your grandchildren have more choice in their life, but in leaving the EU, we restrict such choices and you have just admitted you didn't even know this.


----------



## emmaviolet

ouesi said:


> Or unless you work for an international company that has an office in that country.
> It's not like you can get a passport and then come to the US and work or go to school. You have to have a visa and there are strict rules about visas including having to go back to your home country for a certain amount of time.


Yes, even then it can be hard, a friend of mine was asked if they wanted to go to the other branch in Aus, but they were turned down.


----------



## CanIgoHome

Did/Do people really think that all that £350 million a week or £1.4 billion a month would go just to the NHS 
OMG shouldn't laugh

I hope it goes were it should like 
road maintain 
local councils for local service
country flood deflect 
tourist 
buying back the rail system


----------



## Bisbow

I still believe they will have more freedom of choice outside the EU and I do not believe they will have been restricted in any way so I admit nothing of the sort
I might add that they agree with me without any prompting on my part

What have you to say about the farmers and fishermen losing their jobs 

Sorry for delays in answering, I am cooking and dodging in and out of the kitchrn


----------



## Vanessa131

havoc said:


> _Perhaps a compromise will be reached where the UK take on board the Norway option of becoming a member of the EEA._
> Doesn't Norway pay more per head into the EU than we do. I can't see how continuing to pay in, maybe at an increased rate, with no say in decisions is beneficial.


Yes, they pay More per head compared to us and are required to follow 95% of EU legislation with zero say as they have no MEPs etc.

They have a very good economy, but that comes with having oil which can be used for fuel (the oil the UK produces is used in plastics only), they also have a much smaller population that is generally educated to a higher level, which brings more earning potential.

We also cannot be compared to switzerland, a tax haven, incredibly expensive living costs and health care. The Iceland model also wouldn't suit us either.


----------



## havoc

_OK I will concede the point about passports but you can still get jobs abroad if you want_
You can get jobs abroad if you are young, healthy, able, have the qualifications and skill set of the country you want to move to. That's the situation worldwide now and there's nothing about the UK leaving the EU going to change that. Those without the requirements who aren't an asset aren't suddenly going to welcomed with open arms.


----------



## emmaviolet

Bisbow said:


> I still believe they will have more freedom of choice outside the EU and I do not believe they will have been restricted in any way so I admit nothing of the sort
> I might add that they agree with me without any prompting on my part
> 
> What have you to say about the farmers and fishermen losing their jobs
> 
> Sorry for delays in answering, I am cooking and dodging in and out of the kitchrn


To become insular will always restrict choices and movement. 
You did admit you didn't know that about passports.

I think the EU has actually helped some farmers, I know of some who received great help when their crops had flooded and wouldn't grow, they were actually bailed out of a hole. But there will be some who are worse off, as there will be many worse off being out.


----------



## Guest

rottiepointerhouse said:


> One thing that really pees me off is other people whether they are politicians/journalists/forum members deciding why people voted in a particular way. Its quite patronising. Whatever the issues were that people voted on they have made their choice and we have a result so now we need to get on and organise our exit and start looking to the wider world not just Europe. If some people voted with immigration as their main influence (I believe some of the highest exit votes were in areas with high immigrant numbers where the vote was as high as 70% out) then its time to stop calling them names and start addressing their concerns, their views might be different to yours but they are as entitled to a say on the future of their lives/their children's lives and their communities as everyone else is. I am sick to death of politicians scare mongering, being negative and telling lies and I'm even more sick of the opinions of actors/actresses/singers/models/footballers/bloggers etc as they try to tell us what we should think and how we should vote. I wish memes and tweets had never been invented and the people would say what they mean and mean what they say.


I'm with you on the memes and tweets. Like junk food. Empty calories 

I'm also with you on assuming you know why someone voted the way that they did. 
It's very possible for two people to look at the same information and come to different conclusions, doesn't mean one is right, one is wrong. Doesn't mean one person is stupid, the other not. Doesn't mean one is racist, the other not. Doesn't mean one cares about the environment, the other doesn't. It just means it was a lot of information to process, a lot of factors to address, and based on that, two people came up with two different conclusions.

However what worries me for you (Britain), for Europe, for us here in the US, for the rest of the world, is this sense of the country fracturing down the middle. 
48 to 52 percent may be a democracy, but in reality it's a country divided. Destabilized. 
Both campaigns were run on divisiveness and why the other guy is wrong/bad, which is politics everywhere these days. It's all about creating fear and distrust and why you should hate the other guy. Nothing good comes of that. In today's world more than ever we should be looking for ways we connect as people, not what separates us from the "others". That idea of "us" versus "them" in any context has historically never worked out well.

So yes, nationalism to the extreme worries me. Much of the leave rhetoric does sound like "take care of our own, screw the others." And it's not even clear who "our own" even is. 
Add to that a fractured, destabilized people, half of the country feeling disenfranchised, and you create history repeating itself over and over and over again, with no real progress towards unity as human beings and solving the problems that got us to this point to begin with.


----------



## MiloandTazzy

The overwhelming response from young people is that their oppurtunities have been taken away by the older generation voting to leave.


----------



## CanIgoHome

MiloandTazzy said:


> The overwhelming response from young people is that their oppurtunities have been taken away by the older generation voting to leave.


problem is people now days want everything like yesterday and same don't want to work toward it because it hard work
the young generation want it handed on a plate for them and think being in the EU will give them that

Yes the next 5 years are going to be hard but we as a country will come though it


----------



## MiloandTazzy

CanIgoHome said:


> problem is people now days want everything like yesterday and same don't want to work toward it because it hard work
> the young generation want it handed on a plate for them and think being in the EU will give them that
> 
> Yes the next 5 years are going to be hard but we as a country will come though it


What rubbish, my daughter is working hard on her business degree, she wants nothing handing to her on a plate. It's not about the eu giving them things, it's about having the opportunities that being part of the eu gave them.


----------



## emmaviolet

CanIgoHome said:


> problem is people now days want everything like yesterday and same don't want to work toward it because it hard work
> the young generation want it handed on a plate for them and think being in the EU will give them that
> 
> Yes the next 5 years are going to be hard but we as a country will come though it


Really, they have everything handed to them? Ironic as it's not their generation getting a free university education and grants to go with it.

How can you be so sure we can come out of it in the next five years? What real plans does anyone in leave actually have to help here? All I have seen since yesterday is admitting that they were lying.


----------



## Happy Paws2

CanIgoHome said:


> Yes the next 5 years are going to be hard but we as a country will come though it


You mean you hope the country will, from what I've over the last few days it could take a longer longer than that, if ever.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> _Perhaps a compromise will be reached where the UK take on board the Norway option of becoming a member of the EEA._
> Doesn't Norway pay more per head into the EU than we do. I can't see how continuing to pay in, maybe at an increased rate, with no say in decisions is beneficial.


Only trying to think of something positive. Been a lot of understandable negatively from so many, myself included and even from some leave campaigners now the euphoria has passed and reality is creeping in.
I do have a Plan B. They are benefits to living in the North of England!

As regards to visas I recall even an icon like John Lennon struggled to get his US one in the '70s.


----------



## CanIgoHome

MiloandTazzy said:


> What rubbish, my daughter is working hard on her business degree, she wants nothing handing to her on a plate. It's not about the eu giving them things, *it's about having the opportunities *that being part of the eu gave them.


which will alway be there people get jobs all over the world not just in the EU


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

ouesi said:


> I'm with you on the memes and tweets. Like junk food. Empty calories
> 
> I'm also with you on assuming you know why someone voted the way that they did.
> It's very possible for two people to look at the same information and come to different conclusions, doesn't mean one is right, one is wrong. Doesn't mean one person is stupid, the other not. Doesn't mean one is racist, the other not. Doesn't mean one cares about the environment, the other doesn't. It just means it was a lot of information to process, a lot of factors to address, and based on that, two people came up with two different conclusions.
> 
> However what worries me for you (Britain), for Europe, for us here in the US, for the rest of the world, is this sense of the country fracturing down the middle.
> 48 to 52 percent may be a democracy, but in reality it's a country divided. Destabilized.
> Both campaigns were run on divisiveness and why the other guy is wrong/bad, which is politics everywhere these days. It's all about creating fear and distrust and why you should hate the other guy. Nothing good comes of that. In today's world more than ever we should be looking for ways we connect as people, not what separates us from the "others". That idea of "us" versus "them" in any context has historically never worked out well.
> 
> So yes, nationalism to the extreme worries me. Much of the leave rhetoric does sound like "take care of our own, screw the others." And it's not even clear who "our own" even is.
> Add to that a fractured, destabilized people, half of the country feeling disenfranchised, and you create history repeating itself over and over and over again, with no real progress towards unity as human beings and solving the problems that got us to this point to begin with.


I don't know what the answer is, we have to hold elections and sometimes referendums, sometimes majorities will be large and sometimes small, there always has to be a winner and a loser. I think the general public are going through a stage of just not trusting politicians so in some ways it was good to have the power to make our own decision/choice and for them to have to listen to us for a change. I hope if nothing else it will make all politicians get back in touch with the grass roots members they are supposed to represent and truly listen to their concerns rather than just dismiss them (like Gordon Brown when he was PM and was famously caught not realising his mike was on in the car calling a labour party supporter a bigot because she dared to ask him about immigration). I do believe we need to "take care of our own" first and foremost, we can't cure the problems of the whole world but "our own" to me means everyone who lives here (legally) whatever their nationality, I believe its irresponsible to open our doors to more and more immigrants when we can't provide the homes/roads/schools/healthcare for the people already living here (whatever their original nationality) and that when we are able to help we should be able to choose who we help based on need not on whether they come from the EU or not. People complain about the exit voters being inward but I think the opposite - there is a whole world out there to visit/to trade with/to help give aid and shelter to not just Europe.


----------



## Jesthar

MiloandTazzy said:


> What rubbish, my daughter is working hard on her business degree, she wants nothing handing to her on a plate. It's not about the eu giving them things, it's about having the opportunities that being part of the eu gave them.


Exactly. I've never had any desire to work abroad, but I have plenty of desireable qualifications and if I had it would have been easy to get a job in the EU compared with the rest of the world, and it would cost both me and the overseas company less money to

I also suspect that we will find allowing free movement of European citizens in to the UK comes as a central condition of any trade agreement with the EU (and possibly other countries too as we also have to renegotiate any external agreements that are currently challened via the EU), and whether or not this is reciprocated will depend on the other party, not us. We need their trade more than they need ours, after all, as we are nowhere close to producing even all our own food, let alone fuels and technology.

I see Calais are already saying the border control agreement where passport control and other checks takes place in France needs to be re-negotiated. So logically that's either going to cost us more money to maintain (well, they wouldn't want to renegotiate it for _less_ would they?  ), or no checking will take place in France and we sort it all out ourselves once people arrive here.


----------



## Satori

Bisbow said:


> Of course they will, they will not be barred from Europe anymore than they would any other country, we have something called a passport. That remark is what I call scaremongering
> 
> If my grandson wants to be a fisherman he could only catch what the EU tell him too, if he wants to farm he will have to follow EU laws telling him how to do it
> Just a couple of examples for you


Thank you. I wish people would stop talking this rubbish about membership of the EU being what allows one to live elsewhere. It is having a job to go to or some other way to contribute to your chosen country that, by and large, dictates where yiu may reside. This is how it should be. Automatic right of residence in a country to which you cannot make a meaningful contribution is plain silly.

Outside of the UK, I have lived for extended periods in Belgium, Switzerland and the USA. So, one EU, one kind-of EU and one unrelated. None was more or less difficult than the other to get access to or find work in. The paperwork was a bit different in each case but nothing onerous apart from filing taxes which was a nightmare in all three countries. Membership or otherwise of some outdated, protectionist mega-bureaucracy had and has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> Those petitioning for a second EU referendum vote read these:
> 
> Cameron said no to a 2nd EU Referendum vote on 17th May 2016 http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-cameron-idUKKCN0Y81VK
> 
> The EU also said this wouldn't be allowed to happen.
> 
> Nearly 1 million people are going to be upset in Parliaments response to the current petition.


The petition will, rightly, be rejected as frivolous.


----------



## havoc

_I do have a Plan B_
I think many of us have. Luckily for my kids they're entitled to Irish passports so their options stay open.


----------



## Guest

Funny how now the focus seems to try to keep everything the same as when Britain was part of EU, like nothing should change. What was the point then to vote out then in the first place? It looks like that you don´t want to have anything to do with EU, but you still want to have the same rights and benefits you had before. Why should we want to give them to Britain? I´m sure EU companies can easily manage substituting the British products. Negotiating bilateral relationships will mean lots of extra work, for which Britain will pay, naturally. Why would EU-countries pay anything for Britain anymore? Our politicians would have hard time trying to convince us why we should help you, when all countries have their own problems too. 

If Britain didn´t seem to do so well within EU, how well you think you do outside it? I really think you got the wrong end of the stick, with Farage leading the way. What a pity, though. We all would have benefited, had Britain stayed in. Good luck with trying to keep everything the same.


----------



## MollySmith

I've wrote, edited and mucked about with this and this is my final words (and when I say social media, I also mean PF too).

There are many updates on Facebook and pleas online that are asking us all to get along. From holier than thou pleas from leave voters to rashes of badly designed memes. They make me feeling patronised, pissed off and queasy.

The thing that really gets me is that when I voted in the local elections, the people in the polling station said they were not expecting to be busy. That's a shameful reflection of all of us. Then there are cockwombles like Adam. Politics starts at a local level. It might seem a bit nimby to engage with your MP but that's why they are elected. It strikes me that this biggest outcome of this vote apart from the consequences (good or bad) is that we have a huge divide in this country.

It's worth saying that the biggest bunch of voters in the General Election was the apathy party - please spare me the bollocks about not liking the policies, or Balls or Cameron (it's not a presidential race btw). You should have got involved sooner, engaged much much earlier.

I voted remain because I thought it was best for Cambridge and the amazing research that goes on in this place, for the fantastic education in our universities, the friends I have made whilst I was an Anglia from all over the EU whose lives have changed, my interest in social design that embraces global culture and my life. I did not read any viable reason for leave for me and my husband (who also voted to remain). But if you live elsewhere, you probably had a valid reason to vote leave (unless you are like Adam). Or one of the Britons who googled EU after the polls closed. But I probably should have been more aware of others and maybe my view might have changed.

There's this great thing. It's called social media but it's been packed with lies lately. Some have encouraged others to believe people like Farage or Cameron. But I think we've stopped listening to each other. That the real reason were lost under the media and political bashing. I think we need to use Facebook better.

So can't we make a better promise that is more than the promises to work together? Can we promise to use social media to talk about our views in a more meaningful way? To communicate with our councillors? To join our communities? Talk a bit more so we never become this divided again. People blame politicians but to do that, you have to have been registered to vote for them in the first place. If politicians claim they were learn lessons after the tragic death of Jo Cox (apart from Farage of course) then so should we.

http://theslot.jezebel.com/man-who-voted-for-brexit-is-a-bit-shocked-his-vote-coun-1782553004


----------



## stockwellcat.

So who could we be possibly trading with when we leave the EU?
Switzerland
China
Japan
America
Canada
Mexico
Australia
New Zealand
Malaysia
Fiji
Pakistan
India
Greenland
South Korea
Scotland
Ireland
Turkey
Africa (North, South, East and West)
and even the EEA (European Economic Area)

There would be no chance of us trading with:
North Korea
Syria
Russia


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> I see Calais are already saying the border control agreement where passport control and other checks takes place in France needs to be re-negotiated. So logically that's either going to cost us more money to maintain (well, they wouldn't want to renegotiate it for _less_ would they?  ), or no checking will take place in France and we sort it all out ourselves once people arrive here.


The mayor of Calais can say what she likes, a French government spokesperson has said "On the question of immigration, to be clear, British exit from the European Union will not lead to changes in terms of immigration treaties with United Kingdom. These are bilateral treaties."


----------



## ForestWomble

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't know what the answer is, we have to hold elections and sometimes referendums, sometimes majorities will be large and sometimes small, there always has to be a winner and a loser. I think the general public are going through a stage of just not trusting politicians so in some ways it was good to have the power to make our own decision/choice and for them to have to listen to us for a change. I hope if nothing else it will make all politicians get back in touch with the grass roots members they are supposed to represent and truly listen to their concerns rather than just dismiss them (like Gordon Brown when he was PM and was famously caught not realising his mike was on in the car calling a labour party supporter a bigot because she dared to ask him about immigration). I do believe we need to "take care of our own" first and foremost, we can't cure the problems of the whole world but "our own" to me means everyone who lives here (legally) whatever their nationality, I believe its irresponsible to open our doors to more and more immigrants when we can't provide the homes/roads/schools/healthcare for the people already living here (whatever their original nationality) and that when we are able to help we should be able to choose who we help based on need not on whether they come from the EU or not. People complain about the exit voters being inward but I think the opposite - there is a whole world out there to visit/to trade with/to help give aid and shelter to not just Europe.


Excellent post. Consider yourself green blobbed.


----------



## Bisbow

This ns my last post on this subject, we are just going round and round and no. I am not admitting defeat , I still believe I did the best for my grand children's future.
I am just reading the same things put a different way and am getting dizzy
Call me what you like, I am out now and going to give the referendum a rest and see what happens, if I am wrong I will apologise when it is proven


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> 2) Cameron is resigning.


@stockwellcat: any guesses who will take over from DC?


----------



## emmaviolet

MrsZee said:


> Funny how now the focus seems to try to keep everything the same as when Britain was part of EU, like nothing should change. What was the point then to vote out then in the first place? It looks like that you don´t want to have anything to do with EU, but you still want to have the same rights and benefits you had before. Why should we want to give them to Britain? I´m sure EU companies can easily manage substituting the British products. Negotiating bilateral relationships will mean lots of extra work, for which Britain will pay, naturally. Why would EU-countries pay anything for Britain anymore? Our politicians would have hard time trying to convince us why we should help you, when all countries have their own problems too.
> 
> If Britain didn´t seem to do so well within EU, how well you think you do outside it? I really think you got the wrong end of the stick, with* Farage *leading the way. What a pity, though. We all would have benefited, had Britain stayed in. Good luck with trying to keep everything the same.


Ah yes, Farage, the man who couldn't even win his seat has caused all of this unrest and instability in the country and Europe. 
What an _ass_et he is for us all.


----------



## CanIgoHome

stockwellcat said:


> So who could we be possibly trading with when we leave the EU?
> Switzerland
> China
> Japan
> America
> Canada
> Mexico
> Australia
> New Zealand
> Malaysia
> Fiji
> Pakistan
> India
> Greenland
> South Korea
> Scotland
> Ireland
> Turkey
> Africa (North, South, East and West)
> and even the EEA (European Economic Area)
> 
> There would be no chance of us trading with:
> North Korea
> Syria
> Russia


you forget ALL the countries in the EU itself

because none these countries will not stop trading with us because 
20% of Brussels veg & fruit trade is us 
Spain we import fruit and veg from them too
we will just have to renegotiate own trade route with each country


----------



## stockwellcat.

CanIgoHome said:


> you forget ALL the countries in the EU itself
> 
> because none these countries will not stop trading with us because
> 20% of Brussels veg & fruit trade is us
> Spain we import fruit and veg from them too
> we will just have to renegotiate own trade route with each country


That's the EEA
Germany have said they already want to trade with us so that's a plus I guess.


----------



## CanIgoHome

I missed that bit sorry 

thats the point we are both trying to say
we as a world trade with each other all the time its not going to stop just because we left the EU


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

MrsZee said:


> Funny how now the focus seems to try to keep everything the same as when Britain was part of EU, like nothing should change. What was the point then to vote out then in the first place? It looks like that you don´t want to have anything to do with EU, but you still want to have the same rights and benefits you had before. Why should we want to give them to Britain? I´m sure EU companies can easily manage substituting the British products. Negotiating bilateral relationships will mean lots of extra work, for which Britain will pay, naturally. Why would EU-countries pay anything for Britain anymore? Our politicians would have hard time trying to convince us why we should help you, when all countries have their own problems too.
> 
> If Britain didn´t seem to do so well within EU, how well you think you do outside it? I really think you got the wrong end of the stick, with Farage leading the way. What a pity, though. We all would have benefited, had Britain stayed in. Good luck with trying to keep everything the same.


I'm not sure why you think we don't want to have anything to do with the EU - we voted to leave for a variety of reasons - each person no doubt has their own reasons but voting to leave a bureaucratic organisation doesn't mean we don't want anything to do with the countries of Europe. What benefits do you think we want? Other EU companies do a great deal of trade with us, we are big consumers of all sorts of goods from the EU so why would that change? Why would the Germans want to put jobs in their car making industry at risk by refusing to trade with us? I don't think we are asking your or any other country to help us we are talking about mutual trade arrangements that benefit all - our economy is the 2nd largest in Europe so why do you feel your politicians will have to convince you to help us? Why do you feel we got the wrong end of the stick and were led by Farage, most people don't take a blind bit of notice of Farage nor his nasty posters and are quite capable of making up their own minds.



emmaviolet said:


> Ah yes, Farage, the man who couldn't even win his seat has caused all of this unrest and instability in the country and Europe.
> What an _ass_et he is for us all.


Who says Farage has caused all this unrest? he is a member/leader of a tiny political party with no power, there has been growing concerns and opposition to the EU building up over many years which politicians have chosen to ignore, this referendum gave the citizens of this country the chance to make politicians listen to their concerns and now those same public servants will have to implement the decision that like it or not a majority of people who bothered to vote wanted.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> The mayor of Calais can say what she likes, a French government spokesperson has said "On the question of immigration, to be clear, British exit from the European Union will not lead to changes in terms of immigration treaties with United Kingdom. These are bilateral treaties."


Except it's not changes in the treaties being talked about, it's changes in the physical implementation of it 

Of course, another angle to be considered is that if the treaties aren't changing, there are likely to be some complexities when it comes to the rest of the promises regarting taking back control on immigration, too. Can't have it both ways, I suppose


----------



## Blackadder

MrsZee said:


> Funny how now the focus seems to try to keep everything the same as when Britain was part of EU, like nothing should change. What was the point then to vote out then in the first place? It looks like that you don´t want to have anything to do with EU, but you still want to have the same rights and benefits you had before. Why should we want to give them to Britain? I´m sure EU companies can easily manage substituting the British products. Negotiating bilateral relationships will mean lots of extra work, for which Britain will pay, naturally. Why would EU-countries pay anything for Britain anymore? Our politicians would have hard time trying to convince us why we should help you, when all countries have their own problems too.
> 
> If Britain didn´t seem to do so well within EU, how well you think you do outside it? I really think you got the wrong end of the stick, with Farage leading the way. What a pity, though. We all would have benefited, had Britain stayed in. Good luck with trying to keep everything the same.


To be fair it won't be the same, it can't be & I don't think those voting out expected it to be. Trade deals will be negotiated, it's in no ones interest to see the UK go under.
Are we going to be punished for voting out? I very much doubt it, the UK is a big market with 65 million people, are the Germans, French or anyone else going to shun us & throw their toys out of the pram? No.
Yes things will get a little more complicated but only as complicated as we want to make it.
I'll admit I didn't vote due to be being totally confused as to who to believe but if I'd seen this before the vote I'd have voted leave..



> *Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany*
> "We take note of the British people's decision with regret. *There is no doubt that this is a blow to Europe and to the European unification process*."


European unification process? What is that? A single super state?
When the UK joined in the 70s it was the "common market", a way to trade in a much easier way with our European neighbours but we've moved a long way away from that & not for the better.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> @stockwellcat: any guesses who will take over from DC?


I think it's unfair someone else has to clean up and be responsible for the mess Cameron made. But hey ho that's life.
In response to your question, personally I don't know.


----------



## rona

A lot of sour grapes since the vote.
It's democracy folks, the thing the EU is supposed to support

Suck it up and get on with it.

I've risked my pension for this because I believe democracy is more important than money and the EU is no longer democratic


----------



## stockwellcat.

Bye for now.


----------



## CanIgoHome

stockwellcat said:


> I think it's unfair someone else has to clean up and be responsible for the mess Cameron made. But hey ho that's life.
> In response to your question, personally I don't know.


I think Cameron and the new PM should be in the meeting together that way the new MP know the score from both sides


----------



## Moquette

I'm a french citizen currently living and working in England.

I benefitted from the EU Erasmus programme, which allowed me to study here for part of my Bachelor's; and from the conventions that made it easy for me to do my Masters here. I was in France when I got the job I'm working right now, and the only two things I needed to come and work here were a passport check by my manager and a NI number. Needless to say, the UK being part of the EU had TONS of advantages for me... but this worked the other way around, too! The UK leaving the EU will most definitely make this kind of experience much less accessible for UK residents, which is a damn shame. With the economy being what it is, having an experience studying or working abroad can be a massive asset, not to mention a great life experience. I can't help but think of the many young people who will be deprived of this kind of opportunity (not that this kind of opportunity won't be available anymore at all, but it won't be as easy or cheap as it has been all these years).

I'm hugely disappointed in the referendum results. Obviously I didn't get a say as I don't have the right to vote in the UK, but I really hoped, until the last moment, that the UK would opt to stay in the EU. I have wanted to live in England for many years, I worked hard towards this goal and planned to settle down here definitely... but I'm now thinking of moving to Scotland when my current contract ends.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
I pulled a 14-hr on call overnight shift, & my client had me up @ 3:30-am, so I turned on BBC-World & watched the summaries & a few interviews.
.
I agree, this is a very worrying time - after the final count was announced, the pound fell like a plummeting rock to 1985 values; the economy will be living in limbo for some time, & the markets - global, national, regional, or local - all HATE volatility & uncertainty in any form or degree.
And this is not a little uncertainty, nor a brief period of floundering - this is a *lot!* of uncertainty, which won't vanish like morning fog under the sun's rays - it will hang around for quite some time. 
.
This uncertainty is the half-ton gorilla in the middle of the living room, which no one wants to notice or admit is there - big, scary, potentially very destructive. What about housing values? Stocks & bonds? City or government bonds? Certificates of Deposit? Investment funds, which manage retirement savings for individuals, national or local companies, or pension funds?
.
Are we going to see a repeat of the Great Recession of 2008, where folks lost their retirement savings in a week or less, or saw their home's market value slashed by one-half or more?
I don't know - but i can see either as possible, & other knock-on economic effects, as well.
.
.
.


----------



## Blitz

emmaviolet said:


> I was shell shocked just this minute watching BBC news with a report from Hartlepool, who didn't really know why they voted out and some who barely knew anything about it, yet voted out.
> 
> A very worrying time.


Maybe it was a mistake to have a referendum that actually had a result. It might have been better to use it as an opinion poll and let the politicians make the final decision. I freely admit I was not particularly clued up on it and I voted out - and I am sure many that were not clued up voted to remain!



emmaviolet said:


> I'm sorry but you must be mistaken as to what having a passport actually means.
> A passport allows you to visit, not work and live there. Canada, US, Australia, you are allowed to visit, not live and work. When we close our borders, we will not have access to just go and live and work in Europe. It's not scaremongering, this is the truth of the matter. Of course they can visit, but they will not have free access to jobs abroad as we do now, it will be very restricted.
> 
> Oh, so fishing and farming, ok, those restrictions are there for a reason, usually the animals rights.


Not animal rights, just red tape.

I wish that everyone that wanted to come to the UK had to get a work visa and prove themselves before coming here - it would help a great deal.



Bisbow said:


> OK so I wonder how my friends two sons managed to get jobs in the USA and New Zealand then
> 
> The EU has ruined the fishing industry in this country and many farmers have gone out of business because of the EU, nothing to do with animal rights
> Tell that to the fishermen competing with the Spanish factory ships


I agree Bisbow. I have very many friends whose children are working and living in Australia, New Zealand, the Middle East and the US. I do not know of any working in Europe. My daughter is in Australia at the moment working with a visa for a year. She is entitled to increase that to a further year if she wants to. There seems to be a steady stream from UK and Europe working in Australia short term and many that stay there permanently.
We make it far too easy for people from all other countries to come to the UK and stay permanently. If we had the same rules as some other countries we would still have plenty of immigrants coming in and working but the non workers who just come here for a better life would find it more difficult - and what is wrong with that.


----------



## KittenKong

Blitz said:


> We make it far too easy for people from all other countries to come to the UK and stay permanently. If we had the same rules as some other countries we would still have plenty of immigrants coming in and working but the non workers who just come here for a better life would find it more difficult - and what is wrong with that.


I may have wanted to retire in Spain for a better life. What is wrong with that?!!! It works/worked both ways.
That will probably not happen now and please don't say it will. No one knows how things will be in the next 15 days let alone years.


----------



## emmaviolet

Blitz, red tape can keeps things safe for a reason.

Do you know who has little red tape, Rio, and people are dying putting up their stadiums. 
We had the red tape and nobody died.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, EmmaViolet:

...
Some people seem pretty ignorant of what it means to actually leave [the EU] & that we, as a country, must still follow
many EU rules, anyway, if we wish to trade with them; we just won't have a seat at the [decision-making] table, anymore.

/QUOTE

===========================

QUOTE, havoc:

...
Our problem now is that there's no plan... going forward.

The campaign to leave was all about what we '*could*' do, with no clear picture of how to manage a UK outside the EU.
Both major parties are moving... right, with Tory leadership up for grabs, & moves to oust Corbyn by Labour opportunists.

It doesn't bode well for the very people who thought leaving was the cure for all ills.

/QUOTE
.
Emma-Vi, yes - many EU regulations will persist as conditions of trade, just as USA manufacturers
must abide by EU regs to export to their markets. And yes, trading partners outside the EU have very
little say in EU decisions. They can express opinions, but no more than that.
.
Seeing this only from outside, yes, I agree, Havoc -
the Leave campaign was all about what *might* be, pie-in-the-sky possibilities - but no one laid out
what *Needs* to happen, once the UK actually exited. What now? - right now, at this moment?
.
What can be done to stabilize markets, prop the pound, prevent a rush of foreign biz-branches from
[EDIT, missing word!] *fleeing *the UK in an attack of nerves, encourage overseas investment,
slow a crash in housing values, etc?
.
.
.


----------



## havoc

I don't think foreign investment is something we should be hoping for in the foreseeable future. I don't think the housing market will crash overnight though, it will be a slower affair as demand slows if loans become scarce/expensive. If we do go into another recession then demand for everything decreases meaning we'll be buying less from everywhere, including EU countries, which means we'll not be nearly such an attractive trading partner and won't be able to negotiate the most favourable terms.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lets face it, we have open Pandora's Box and it's to later to close it now.


----------



## MollySmith

Found this, interesting to read. I still stick by remain but it's a bit easier to read than to watch the muppets on the news who didn't think their vote counted and we'd never leave but voted to leave anyway....
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> Found this, interesting to read. I still stick by remain but it's a bit easier to read than to watch the muppets on the news who didn't think their vote counted and we'd never leave but voted to leave anyway....
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu


I am with Tom, 23 of Glasgow.

I am delighted for the UK that we shall escape but my greater hope is that this is a catalyst for the annihilation of the EU.


----------



## MiloandTazzy

MollySmith said:


> Found this, interesting to read. I still stick by remain but it's a bit easier to read than to watch the muppets on the news who didn't think their vote counted and we'd never leave but voted to leave anyway....
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu


I don't agree with everything they're saying but it's good to read some intelligent reasons for voting leave. Sky news were interviewing voters this morning and immigration was the only reason they could give for voting leave.


----------



## noushka05

MollySmith said:


> Found this, interesting to read. I still stick by remain but it's a bit easier to read than to watch the muppets on the news who didn't think their vote counted and we'd never leave but voted to leave anyway....
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu


And look at some of these comments after this article as Daily Mail readers discover the awful truth how the rag duped them into voting brexit - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tgages-passports-health-cover.html#newcomment Oh dear ...


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> my greater hope is that this is a catalyst for the annihilation of the EU.


Why?

Surely if others want to be part of it, that's up to them


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> And look at some of these comments after this article as Daily Mail readers discover the awful truth how the rag duped them into voting brexit - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tgages-passports-health-cover.html#newcomment Oh dear ...


Oh godfathers. I hope Cameron's missive will be titled 'Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.'

I have no issue with those on here who were eloquent in their explanations and gave evidence but to believe in the Wail... if Brexit would have guaranteed it could imbue some of society with brains then I may have voted leave.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> OK I will concede the point about passports but you can still get jobs abroad if you want, you don't have to be a EU member but I still maintain the EU has much to answer for regarding our farmers and fishermen and the fact so many of them have lost their lively hood.


Without fishing quotas fishing stocks will collapse. No fish - no industry. We already had a very good deal in the EU Brisbow - here are the facts - https://www.foe.co.uk/blog/what-has-eu-done-uk-fish

Cornwall voted for brexit then pleads to keep millions EU funding Funding that helped its fishermen & farmers - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...erwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html They've no chance!
*
"Not only do Cornwall's many farmers and fishermen benefit from the Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy respectively, but the county receives tens of millions of pounds a year in structural and convergence funds to support local economic growth and communities.*


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> Without fishing quotas fishing stocks will collapse. No fish - no industry. We already had a very good deal in the EU Brisbow - here are the facts - https://www.foe.co.uk/blog/what-has-eu-done-uk-fish
> 
> Cornwall voted for brexit then pleads to keep millions EU funding Funding that helped its fishermen & farmers - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...erwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html They've no chance!
> *
> "Not only do Cornwall's many farmers and fishermen benefit from the Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy respectively, but the county receives tens of millions of pounds a year in structural and convergence funds to support local economic growth and communities.*


I lived in Cornwall for years and was stunned.

People assume it's the EU fishing quotas that are the problem but its years of over fishing. Mackerel fishing reached its peak in the 1970s when a so called 'mackerel bonanza' saw handline fishermen making a great living from winter shoals of mackerel. In 1976 seine netters arrived from Scotland. This boom created employment for many local fishermen, but devastated local mackerel stocks. When landings were too large for the demand prices fell and huge quantities of good fish were 'slipped' - thrown overboard and left to rot on the seabed. In the 1970s ICES fishery scientists estimated that the stock of mackerel in the North East Atlantic was over 30 million. By 1995 the stock was estimated at just 2 million. In the mid-eighties fishing in Cornwall collapsed because fishing in our waters had been too high. The EU introduced the 'Mackerel Box' an area of 6,7000km2 - a ban on targeted fishing for mackerel by trawlers and purse seiners, and where a hand-line fishery operates with a separate quota allocation. This meant a restriction and now stocks of mackerel 4.6million tonnes in the North East Atlantic (according to ICES).

The Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Growth Programme is the European economic regeneration programme for the region. Running from 2014-2020 it was planned to contribute to the EU ambition to deliver smart, sustainable and inclusive growth. 

*European Regional Development Fund (ERDF)* -The ERDF Programme is worth €437,472,735.
*European Social Fund (ESF)* - The ESF Programme is worth €166,234,129.
This must be at risk now?


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> I am delighted for the UK that we shall escape but my greater hope is that this is a catalyst for the annihilation of the EU.


Why all this venom and hatred? Can't you not just be happy the UK vote went your way?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, EmmaViolet:
> 
> ...
> Some people seem pretty ignorant of what it means to actually leave [the EU] & that we, as a country, must still follow
> many EU rules, anyway, if we wish to trade with them; we just won't have a seat at the [decision-making] table, anymore.
> 
> /QUOTE
> 
> ===========================
> 
> QUOTE, havoc:
> 
> ...
> Our problem now is that there's no plan... going forward.
> 
> The campaign to leave was all about what we '*could*' do, with no clear picture of how to manage a UK outside the EU.
> Both major parties are moving... right, with Tory leadership up for grabs, & moves to oust Corbyn by Labour opportunists.
> 
> It doesn't bode well for the very people who thought leaving was the cure for all ills.
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> Emma-Vi, yes - many EU regulations will persist as conditions of trade, just as USA manufacturers
> must abide by EU regs to export to their markets. And yes, trading partners outside the EU have very
> little say in EU decisions. They can express opinions, but no more than that.
> .
> Seeing this only from outside, yes, I agree, Havoc -
> the Leave campaign was all about what *might* be, pie-in-the-sky possibilities - but no one laid out
> what *Needs* to happen, once the UK actually exited. What now? - right now, at this moment?
> .
> What can be done to stabilize markets, prop the pound, prevent a rush of foreign biz-branches from
> the UK in an attack of nerves, encourage overseas investment, slow a crash in housing values, etc?
> .
> .
> .


Conversely the remain campaign was all about doom and gloom if we left. Of course we all expected there to be some reaction to the news in the City but they will soon get used to it and start looking to new opportunities and markets. The governor of the Bank of England issued this statement on Friday morning

"The people of the United Kingdom have voted to leave the European Union.

Inevitably, there will be a period of uncertainty and adjustment following this result.

There will be no initial change in the way our people can travel, in the way our goods can move or the way our services can be sold.

And it will take some time for the United Kingdom to establish new relationships with Europe and the rest of the world.

Some market and economic volatility can be expected as this process unfolds.

But we are well prepared for this. The Treasury and the Bank of England have engaged in extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I have been in close contact, including through the night and this morning.

The Bank will not hesitate to take additional measures as required as those markets adjust and the UK economy moves forward".

In full here

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/bank-englands-carney-speaks-uk-votes-brexit-080432220--finance.html

Our business is entirely dependent on the property market yet we both voted to leave the EU. I think the worse thing that could happen is for this to be a long and dragged out process because just as people start to settle back down and get on with their lives we will have anxiety and panic when they announce article 50 has been invoked, I can't see any point in leaving that until after October when the new Tory party leader is appointed, they need to get on with it and if David Cameron doesn't feel he can do that then he should step aside sooner so that the new leader can get on with it.

Even Merkel is saying no need for any nastiness

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said the European Union has "no need to be particularly nasty in any way" in the negotiations with Britain about its exit from the bloc.

She insisted that deterring other countries from leaving the EU should not be a priority in the talks.

And she added she was not in favour of pushing for a speedy withdrawal.

Britain narrowly voted to end its membership in a historic referendum last Thursday.

Mrs Merkel was speaking after several EU foreign ministers - including Germany's - had urged Britain to quickly implement its exit.

"It shouldn't take forever, that's right, but I would not fight for a short time frame," she said.

She added that she was seeking an "objective, good" climate in the talks with Britain, which "must be conducted properly".


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Why all this venom and hatred? Can't you not just be happy the UK vote went your way?


I haven't read any venom or hatred in this thread. If you think this one is bad you should have been around for the one after the general election, now that did get nasty


----------



## Blitz

KittenKong said:


> I may have wanted to retire in Spain for a better life. What is wrong with that?!!! It works/worked both ways.
> That will probably not happen now and please don't say it will. No one knows how things will be in the next 15 days let alone years.


I have some friends that are planning on going to Spain to retire. They put their house on the market on thursday, why would it stop them going.



havoc said:


> I don't think foreign investment is something we should be hoping for in the foreseeable future. I don't think the housing market will crash overnight though, it will be a slower affair as demand slows if loans become scarce/expensive. If we do go into another recession then demand for everything decreases meaning we'll be buying less from everywhere, including EU countries, which means we'll not be nearly such an attractive trading partner and won't be able to negotiate the most favourable terms.


Now one good result would be if loans became expensive because interest rates go up. All us oldies that had to pay 15 percent for mortgages and even more for business overdrafts and eventually came out the other side and accrued some savings, wouldn't it be great to actually get some return for all our hard work in the form of some decent interest.


----------



## MoggyBaby

MiloandTazzy said:


> The overwhelming response from young people is that their oppurtunities have been taken away by the older generation voting to leave.


I'm getting rather pissed off with all the comments on how the 'Leavers' have ruined the future of our young people - the 22 yr old in my office chose to vote Leave. He did his own research and figured he'd be better off out of the EU. Several of his chums did the same. Other parents have discussed this issue and also informed that their 'young' people had also voted leave.

In my opinion, the Remainers are just trying to lay a guilt trip on the Leave voters because they are hacked off with the situation and are now chucking their toys out the pram!



stockwellcat said:


> Germany have said they already want to trade with us so that's a plus I guess.


That's a relief! My cat food comes from there!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sorry for coming back but I have noticed that there are alot of angry sore losers out there.

I just want to point a fact out here then I am no longer contributing to this thread.

The official results showed that 25,359 people incorrectly filled their ballot sheets out. Although this is fact it would have not made an impact on the overall result. It just shows if you are going to vote on something do it properly.

I apologise if my numbers where wrong in previous posts, I have just found this website.

232 were rejected for no official mark.
9,084 were rejected as both answers were voted for
836 were rejected because of a writing or mark by which the voter could be identified
15,207 were rejected because they were unmarked or void for uncertainty.

Source of information:
http://www.electoralcommission.org....eclared-by-electoral-commission-in-manchester


----------



## MollySmith

People voted remain with good reason, I'm a bit naffed off that my reasons for voting to remain are apparently based on doom and gloom when I've worked very hard to find the best options based on my ethics. That I find insulting. Do please give some of us credit for having a brain.


----------



## KittenKong

Blitz said:


> Now one good result would be if loans became expensive because interest rates go up. All us oldies that had to pay 15 percent for mortgages......


It gets better doesn't it? They'll be comments praising the ration book and the days of digging for victory next.

Think it's time to withdraw from this thread and consider our opinions whether our long term future lies in England or further North.
Whatever your views I wish you good luck.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

MollySmith said:


> People voted remain with good reason, I'm a bit naffed off that my reasons for voting to remain are apparently based on doom and gloom when I've worked very hard to find the best options based on my ethics. That I find insulting. Do please give some of us credit for having a brain.


I didn't say that anyone voted remain based on doom and gloom but that a lot of the campaign was based on doom and gloom if we came out. It is no more insulting than people accusing most of the people who voted to leave of either being racist or not understanding the issues. Of course I give you credit for having a brain, I've never doubted the intelligence of the people who voted to remain but I do feel the campaign was based on a lot of doom and threats - George Osborne I'm afraid to say was very guilty of that.

From the BBC website - 8 reasons Leave won.

"The public was bombarded with warnings about how they would be poorer if they voted to leave the EU but, in the end, weren't convinced by what they were told and/or believed it was a price worth paying.

The CBI, the IMF, the OECD, the IFS - an alphabet soup of experts lined up to say economic growth would be hobbled, unemployment would go up, the pound would plummet and British business would be left in a no man's land outside the EU.

The Bank of England raised the prospect of a recession while The Treasury said it would be forced to put income tax up and slash spending on the NHS, schools and defence.

If that wasn't enough, President Obama suggested the UK would go to the "back of the queue" in terms of securing a trade deal with the US while top EU official Donald Tusk hinted at the end of Western political civilization".


----------



## MollySmith

Yes you did, I guess I'm still worried @rottiepointerhouse and stunned by the fallouts. Locally it may affect us a lot in terms of the science and research here - the University and Science parks have expressed huge concerns. I saw few positives on either side if I'm honest and I truly tried my best to look for them. I guess I'd still prefer to term the doom and gloom as realism 

My first post wasn't aimed at you - but generally.


----------



## Moquette

MoggyBaby said:


> I'm getting rather pissed off with all the comments on how the 'Leavers' have ruined the future of our young people - the 22 yr old in my office chose to vote Leave. He did his own research and figured he'd be better off out of the EU. Several of his chums did the same. Other parents have discussed this issue and also informed that their 'young' people had also voted leave.


That's just anecdotal evidence, though. I could argue that most of my coworkers are under 25 and they all voted Remain, but that would also be anecdotal evidence.

What is a fact, however, is that the majority of young people voted Remain... which means exactly what it means - that most young people did see a better future in the EU.


----------



## noushka05

MollySmith said:


> I lived in Cornwall for years and was stunned.
> 
> People assume it's the EU fishing quotas that are the problem but its years of over fishing. Mackerel fishing reached its peak in the 1970s when a so called 'mackerel bonanza' saw handline fishermen making a great living from winter shoals of mackerel. In 1976 seine netters arrived from Scotland. This boom created employment for many local fishermen, but devastated local mackerel stocks. When landings were too large for the demand prices fell and huge quantities of good fish were 'slipped' - thrown overboard and left to rot on the seabed. In the 1970s ICES fishery scientists estimated that the stock of mackerel in the North East Atlantic was over 30 million. By 1995 the stock was estimated at just 2 million. In the mid-eighties fishing in Cornwall collapsed because fishing in our waters had been too high. The EU introduced the 'Mackerel Box' an area of 6,7000km2 - a ban on targeted fishing for mackerel by trawlers and purse seiners, and where a hand-line fishery operates with a separate quota allocation. This meant a restriction and now stocks of mackerel 4.6million tonnes in the North East Atlantic (according to ICES).
> 
> The Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Growth Programme is the European economic regeneration programme for the region. Running from 2014-2020 it was planned to contribute to the EU ambition to deliver smart, sustainable and inclusive growth.
> 
> *European Regional Development Fund (ERDF)* -The ERDF Programme is worth €437,472,735.
> *European Social Fund (ESF)* - The ESF Programme is worth €166,234,129.
> This must be at risk now?


Its unbelievable how so many people can vote against their own best interests like that. Its the same in my county, Yorkshire. We stand to lose millions in EU funding - all thrown away. Check this out Molly - http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ver-the-future-of-european-millions-1-7982120 Had to laugh at some of the comments under the article - it was either that or cry! lol.

This one in particular -

_Dear Yorkshire,

Your turkeys voted for this Christmas.

Do one._

lol

There is no way any of us will get any funding now. The brexit camp had no plan just bogus promises.

Nick Cohens article in the Guardian is by far the best summary of this sad affair I have read. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-michael-gove-eu-liars?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I've just copied a segment, but the whole article is well worth a read 

*There are liars and then there's Boris Johnson and Michael Gove*

*
The Brexit figureheads had no plan besides exploiting populist fears and dismissing experts who rubbished their thinking
*

*
I am not going to be over-dainty about mendacity. Politicians, including Remain politicians lie the first plank of their campaign. Vote Leave assured the electorate it would reclaim a supposed £350m Brussels takes from us each week. They knew it was a lie. Between them, they promised to spend £111bn on the NHS, cuts to VAT and council tax, higher pensions, a better transport system and replacements for the EU subsidies to the arts, science, farmers and deprived regions. When boring experts said that, far from being rich, we would face a £40bn hole in our public finances, Vote Leave knew how to fight back. In Johnsonian fashion, it said that the truth tellers were corrupt liars in Brussels' pocket.

Now they have won and what Kipling said of the demagogues of his age applies to Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

I could not dig; I dared not rob: 
Therefore I lied to please the mob. 
Now all my lies are proved untrue 
And I must face the men I slew. 
What tale shall serve me here among 
Mine angry and defrauded young?

*


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> Its unbelievable how so many people can vote against their own best interests like that. Its the same in my county, Yorkshire. We stand to lose millions in EU funding - all thrown away. Check this out Molly - http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ver-the-future-of-european-millions-1-7982120 Had to laugh at some of the comments under the article - it was either that or cry! lol.
> 
> This one in particular -
> 
> _Dear Yorkshire,
> 
> Your turkeys voted for this Christmas.
> 
> Do one._
> 
> lol
> 
> There is no way any of us will get any funding now. The brexit camp had no plan just bogus promises.
> 
> Nick Cohens article in the Guardian is by far the best summary of this sad affair I have read. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-michael-gove-eu-liars?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> I've just copied a segment, but the whole article is well worth a read
> 
> *There are liars and then there's Boris Johnson and Michael Gove*
> 
> *
> The Brexit figureheads had no plan besides exploiting populist fears and dismissing experts who rubbished their thinking
> *
> 
> *
> I am not going to be over-dainty about mendacity. Politicians, including Remain politicians lie the first plank of their campaign. Vote Leave assured the electorate it would reclaim a supposed £350m Brussels takes from us each week. They knew it was a lie. Between them, they promised to spend £111bn on the NHS, cuts to VAT and council tax, higher pensions, a better transport system and replacements for the EU subsidies to the arts, science, farmers and deprived regions. When boring experts said that, far from being rich, we would face a £40bn hole in our public finances, Vote Leave knew how to fight back. In Johnsonian fashion, it said that the truth tellers were corrupt liars in Brussels' pocket.
> 
> Now they have won and what Kipling said of the demagogues of his age applies to Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.
> 
> I could not dig; I dared not rob:
> Therefore I lied to please the mob.
> Now all my lies are proved untrue
> And I must face the men I slew.
> What tale shall serve me here among
> Mine angry and defrauded young?
> *


I have seen that article and it's sobering reading.

I think the next few days will uncover a lot from both camps. I hope that I am proved wrong and leaving is the right thing to do. I am genuinely anxious and wish that someone apart from Farage (whom I've heard has appointed himself negotiator of the exit... I do hope that's not true), would step up from Leave and give some stability in a time of much turmoil.


----------



## white_shadow

'Just an observer here, from 'the other side of the pond'......

I'm reading so much finality in the commentary of this thread.....and, I'm left scratching my head because, as I understand it:


> A really crucial detail about the upcoming EU referendum has gone virtually unmentioned, and it is probably _the_ most crucial detail: *Parliament doesn't actually have to bring Britain out of the EU if the public votes for it.*
> 
> That is because the result of the June 23 referendum on Britain's EU membership is not legally binding. Instead, it is merely advisory, and, in theory, could be totally ignored by the UK government......
> 
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6


and...wait......no matter who promised/said whatever......isn't it your Parliament that's sovereign ?

So...........does no one see the _possibility_ of any alternative ?

(Probability would be a separate, second question)


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> Why?
> 
> Surely if others want to be part of it, that's up to them


Why: Because it is a festering cesspit of statism, bureaucracy, socialism and various other evils; a nasty stain on the global landscape and the grubby, grasping, second-hander denizens of its darkest institutions won't be missed when the whole thing implodes.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Why all this venom and hatred? Can't you not just be happy the UK vote went your way?


No venom other than that which you have imputed. I am deliriously happy; like the veritable dog with two dicks. But, I could be happier still; there are simply no limits to my potential for delight.

Wanna chill pill?


----------



## noushka05

MollySmith said:


> I have seen that article and it's sobering reading.
> 
> I think the next few days will uncover a lot from both camps. I hope that I am proved wrong and leaving is the right thing to do. I am genuinely anxious and wish that someone apart from Farage (whom I've heard has appointed himself negotiator of the exit... I do hope that's not true), would step up from Leave and give some stability in a time of much turmoil.


Same here - I want to be proved wrong, but in the hands of a bunch of climate change denying liars I'm finding it really hard to be positive lol And thats before I'd heard Farage may be doing the negotiating  Have you seen how appallingly hes behaved as an MEP in Europe? I don't think they will look upon his request very favourably at all.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> And look at some of these comments after this article as Daily Mail readers discover the awful truth how the rag duped them into voting brexit - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tgages-passports-health-cover.html#newcomment Oh dear ...


There's not much in that article that would warrent such an OTT reaction as the above . That's a bit strange .
The comments now seem to be nasty ones from the Remain campaign .


----------



## Jesthar

Some really unpleasant stories of post-vote behaviour are starting to surface. Quite a few stories from all over the country of foreign-looking people, even schookids, having random people come up to them in public places and shout variants of 'go home, we just voted you all out'. The police are involved in some of them, such as these cards posted through doors and handed out in Huntingdon:


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> I lived in Cornwall for years and was stunned.
> 
> People assume it's the EU fishing quotas that are the problem but its years of over fishing. Mackerel fishing reached its peak in the 1970s when a so called 'mackerel bonanza' saw handline fishermen making a great living from winter shoals of mackerel. In 1976 seine netters arrived from Scotland. This boom created employment for many local fishermen, but devastated local mackerel stocks. When landings were too large for the demand prices fell and huge quantities of good fish were 'slipped' - thrown overboard and left to rot on the seabed. In the 1970s ICES fishery scientists estimated that the stock of mackerel in the North East Atlantic was over 30 million. By 1995 the stock was estimated at just 2 million. In the mid-eighties fishing in Cornwall collapsed because fishing in our waters had been too high. The EU introduced the 'Mackerel Box' an area of 6,7000km2 - a ban on targeted fishing for mackerel by trawlers and purse seiners, and where a hand-line fishery operates with a separate quota allocation. This meant a restriction and now stocks of mackerel 4.6million tonnes in the North East Atlantic (according to ICES).
> 
> The Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Growth Programme is the European economic regeneration programme for the region. Running from 2014-2020 it was planned to contribute to the EU ambition to deliver smart, sustainable and inclusive growth.
> 
> *European Regional Development Fund (ERDF)* -The ERDF Programme is worth €437,472,735.
> *European Social Fund (ESF)* - The ESF Programme is worth €166,234,129.
> This must be at risk now?




I am half cornish , my mums family were cornish , we have weird family names. '

I don't understand why the EU didn't limit the over fishing , we were members then .

This is from 2015 , it seems then the EU Common Fisheries was reformed and our fishing quotas have increased against scientific advice.
Britain's fishermen will be allowed to increase their catch of cod and other key fish species next year after late-night wrangling between EU ministers in Brussels resulted in a new set of fishing quotas that flout scientific advice.
The quota for cod catches for 2015 will increase by 5% on last year, though scientific advice suggested that it should be cut by 20%.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/16/fishing-quotas-defy-scientists-advice


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> There's not much in that article that would warrent such an OTT reaction as the above . That's a bit strange .
> The comments now seem to be nasty ones from the Leave campaign .


Many people had no idea how some of the consequences of brexit might affect them prior to the vote. On most issues many people were misled, and that is thanks to a bunch of duplicitous politicians and a billionaire-owned media. Once again, we have been cheated of democracy. People are angry - a lot are regretting their decision . http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html



Jesthar said:


> Some really unpleasant stories of post-vote behaviour are starting to surface. Quite a few stories from all over the country of foreign-looking people, even schookids, having random people come up to them in public places and shout variants of 'go home, we just voted you all out'. The police are involved in some of them, such as these cards posted through doors and handed out in Huntingdon:


And so it begins


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> I am half cornish , my mums family were cornish , we have weird family names. '
> 
> I don't understand why the EU didn't limit the over fishing , we were members then .
> 
> This is from 2015 , it seems then the EU Common Fisheries was reformed and our fishing quotas have increased against scientific advice.
> Britain's fishermen will be allowed to increase their catch of cod and other key fish species next year after late-night wrangling between EU ministers in Brussels resulted in a new set of fishing quotas that flout scientific advice.
> The quota for cod catches for 2015 will increase by 5% on last year, though scientific advice suggested that it should be cut by 20%.
> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/16/fishing-quotas-defy-scientists-advice


And there in lies the confusion - claims and counterclaims. For all the good the internet does, it provides so many links and it's hard to know which are right and wrong. No wonder we're all a bit confused - well maybe just me!


----------



## MollySmith

Look , it's been a bit of pants day but I found this on Facebook and it make me laugh, I hope the leave voters do not take offence. Please don't, it's done all very tongue in cheek.

Right lads.

I know emotions are running high and we're all a bit worried about what the future will hold for the Irish economy and such now that brexit actually happened.

Luckily, I've been brainstorming and I think I've come up with a simple 12 point plan:

1) we save up all our pocket money and buy a giant scissors. Like one at least 2km long.

2) we take our scissors on the ferry over to Scotland as a gift for Nichola Sturgeon.

3) Nichola, on the sly, starts severing the English/Scottish border with the scissors

4) if the English notice and start kicking up a fuss we send in some craic squads of Irish football fans to distract them with cans and a sing-song

5) we attach the now free-floating Scotland to Paul O' Connell, who has been patiently floating off the west coast of Scotland

6) Paul tows Scotland over to the top of our Island and we swap it with the north (remember: we still have the scissors)

7) we glue Scotland to the top of Ireland while Paul tows the north up past buncrana towards sligo, where we use more glue to attach it there

8) we *maybe* repeat the whole process with Wales, still on the fence about this one, might have to take a vote

9) our newly formed country 'The Celtic Isles' remains in the EU

10) we win all the football forever and probably all the other sportsball too I guess

11) England has a big cry cos now it's basically that kid no one invites to the party cos he's kind of a dick

12) The Isle of Man is like 'guise whats going on lol' but no one answers because seriously, **** the Isle of Man, state of it

I don't think there are any objective flaws in this plan and I spent nearly three minutes coming up with it so it's probably rock solid.​


----------



## StrawberryBlonde

Jesthar said:


> Some really unpleasant stories of post-vote behaviour are starting to surface. Quite a few stories from all over the country of foreign-looking people, even schookids, having random people come up to them in public places and shout variants of 'go home, we just voted you all out'. The police are involved in some of them, such as these cards posted through doors and handed out in Huntingdon:


How dreadful! In Northern Ireland a friend-of-a-friends child has been slapped with the nickname 'The Illegal' at his school because his parents are Polish


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Many people had no idea how some of the consequences of brexit might affect them prior to the vote. On most issues many people were misled, and that is thanks to a bunch of duplicitous politicians and a billionaire-owned media. Once again, we have been cheated of democracy. People are angry - a lot are regretting their decision . http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html
> 
> And so it begins


Now that is just hilarious..

"Electoral services workers have reported calls from people asking if they could change their decision after Friday's result became clear, while some publicly admitted they intended to use a "protest vote" in the belief the UK was certain to remain in the European Union."

People voted out when they really wanted to stay in? As a protest? A protest against what; common sense?

Idiots.


----------



## CuddleMonster

This may be a dumb question, but can someone explain to me how they know which age groups voted which way? Because votes are anonymous. I get that if an area has 50% of voters under 25 and 60% of voters voted remain, then at least 10% of under 25s must have voted remain. But otherwise, how can they tell? I saw a table saying what percentage of which age group voted leave and there were about 5 age groups. How on earth can they tell? Not everyone answers polls and even if they do, they may not answer the same way as they end up voting.


----------



## porps

CuddleMonster said:


> This may be a dumb question, but can someone explain to me how they know which age groups voted which way? Because votes are anonymous. I get that if an area has 50% of voters under 25 and 60% of voters voted remain, then at least 10% of under 25s must have voted remain. But otherwise, how can they tell? I saw a table saying what percentage of which age group voted leave and there were about 5 age groups. How on earth can they tell? Not everyone answers polls and even if they do, they may not answer the same way as they end up voting.


 good question


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, KittenKong:

...
Can't you not just be happy the UK vote went your way?

/QUOTE
.
.
Double negative, KK - I think U *meant* to say, _"Can't U be *happy* the vote went Ur way?"_
or U could say, tho it's awkward, _"can U not be happy the vote went Ur way?"..._
_._
"Can't U not be happy" = "can't U be sad...", which I don't think U meant.
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
One thing no one has explained, or even elaborated on - exhorting ppl to,
_"Take Britain back!"... _or _"Take back the UK!"_
_._
Take it back from whom, exactly? -- U *enrolled *in the Common Market / EU;
Britain / the UK weren't invaded or held at gunpoint. It was a choice.
Implying that Britain had been stolen from the British is a load of codswallop.
_._
_._
_._


----------



## porps

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> One thing no one has explained, or even elaborated on - exhorting ppl to,
> _"Take Britain back!"... _or _"Take back the UK!"_
> _._
> Take it back from whom, exactly? -- U *enrolled *in the Common Market / EU;
> Britain / the UK weren't invaded or held at gunpoint. It was a choice.
> Implying that Britain had been stolen from the British is a load of codswallop.
> _._
> _._
> _._


i have come to realise that when they say "Take Britain back!" it actually means "Break Britain apart!"


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> I am half cornish , my mums family were cornish , we have weird family names. '
> 
> I don't understand why the EU didn't limit the over fishing , we were members then .
> 
> This is from 2015 , it seems then the EU Common Fisheries was reformed and our fishing quotas have increased against scientific advice.
> Britain's fishermen will be allowed to increase their catch of cod and other key fish species next year after late-night wrangling between EU ministers in Brussels resulted in a new set of fishing quotas that flout scientific advice.
> The quota for cod catches for 2015 will increase by 5% on last year, though scientific advice suggested that it should be cut by 20%.
> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/16/fishing-quotas-defy-scientists-advice


This is the significant paragraph -

*The UK's fisheries minister, George Eustice,* hailed the deal as a triumph for Britain's dwindling fishing fleets. He said: "*Although these were difficult negotiations, I am pleased that we were able to secure the best possible deal to ensure sustainable fisheries and a strong UK fishing industry*.

The tory government, once again, lobbied hard to weaken legislation that would have protected fishing stocks. Further proof of how powerful we were within the EU. We were the 3rd most powerful member. And George Useless Eustice is one of the tory brexiteers. Anyone who thinks this badger killer will do anything positive for our natural world or ordinary people is deluded. He represents the elite and industry - that is all.


----------



## noushka05

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> One thing no one has explained, or even elaborated on - exhorting ppl to,
> _"Take Britain back!"... _or _"Take back the UK!"_
> _._
> Take it back from whom, exactly? -- U *enrolled *in the Common Market / EU;
> Britain / the UK weren't invaded or held at gunpoint. It was a choice.
> Implying that Britain had been stolen from the British is a load of codswallop.
> _._
> _._
> _._


Pathetic isn't it. Its just a silly slogan to whip up national pride & anti EU sentiment.



porps said:


> i have come to realise that when they say "Take Britain back!" it actually means "Break Britain apart!"


We wont be Great Britain soon - we'll be little england.

Oops I think we're there already - http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/19/o...-britain-to-little-england.html?smid=tw-share We've become the laughing stock of the world.


----------



## Zaros

porps said:


> i have come to realise that when they say* "Take Britain back!" it actually means "Break Britain apart!"*


Yeah! Just look at the mess these self serving 845t4rd politicians have caused. Divide and conquer. They've conquered phuq all but they certainly have managed to divide an entire nation of people.

All I read is disappointment and uncertainty. All I see is the wrongful apportioning of blame and all I know is, those who stirred this sh1t up in the first place have now taken a back seat to watch the little people do the mucking out and squabble amongst themselves.

Whilst some get down to swabbing the decks of a crippled ship, others are aware of its list and how much deeper they are in that 5hit. For the moment it might appear the vessel is sinking, but jumping over board is not an option because it also appears to them that the sea is on fire.

If Britain remains divided, the kingdom will never be United and therefore Britain itself will never be Great.


----------



## noushka05

Editorial in the Süddeutsche Zeitung. Just about sums it up for me.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/...ngst-in-die-historische-katastrophe-1.3049120


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> Now that is just hilarious..
> 
> "Electoral services workers have reported calls from people asking if they could change their decision after Friday's result became clear, while some publicly admitted they intended to use a "protest vote" in the belief the UK was certain to remain in the European Union."
> 
> *People voted out when they really wanted to stay in? As a protest? A protest against what; common sense?*
> 
> Idiots.


I heard a man on the TV last night say...He voted out because he expect the remain vote to win, now he thinks he's voted the wrong way.

Just makes you wonder now many others did the same


----------



## havoc

I'm one of those oldies who is well cushioned to weather a storm in comfort and would benefit from high interest rates but I wouldn't wish the pain on others just because I once paid more for a mortgage. Our youngsters need a future, not constant harping about our past.


----------



## kimthecat

[


noushka05 said:


> Oops I think we're there already - http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/19/o...-britain-to-little-england.html?smid=tw-share We've become the laughing stock of the world.


 I think the US has that prerogative or should I say that the US have Trumped us for one number spot .


----------



## noushka05

CuddleMonster said:


> This may be a dumb question, but can someone explain to me how they know which age groups voted which way? Because votes are anonymous. I get that if an area has 50% of voters under 25 and 60% of voters voted remain, then at least 10% of under 25s must have voted remain. But otherwise, how can they tell? I saw a table saying what percentage of which age group voted leave and there were about 5 age groups. How on earth can they tell? Not everyone answers polls and even if they do, they may not answer the same way as they end up voting.


Its seems to be more to do with education, rather than old v young.


----------



## havoc

While we're on the stats - as I worked it out 63% of those eligible to vote didn't vote to leave. Now that doesn't mean we know how those who didn't bother would have voted but it is a statistic always worked out for general elections - and we get a chance to change the result of those every few years.


----------



## KittenKong

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, KittenKong:
> 
> ...
> Can't you not just be happy the UK vote went your way?
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> Double negative, KK - I think U *meant* to say, _"Can't U be *happy* the vote went Ur way?"_
> or U could say, tho it's awkward, _"can U not be happy the vote went Ur way?"..._
> _._
> "Can't U not be happy" = "can't U be sad...", which I don't think U meant.
> .
> .
> .


Quite right. Think many who celebrate now will end up being sad so perhaps my incorrect grammar had some hidden meaning!


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

CuddleMonster said:


> This may be a dumb question, but can someone explain to me how they know which age groups voted which way? Because votes are anonymous. I get that if an area has 50% of voters under 25 and 60% of voters voted remain, then at least 10% of under 25s must have voted remain. But otherwise, how can they tell? I saw a table saying what percentage of which age group voted leave and there were about 5 age groups. How on earth can they tell? Not everyone answers polls and even if they do, they may not answer the same way as they end up voting.


The information usually comes from the exit polls....which are notoriously unreliable ...in actuality they were predicting a Remain win as the polls closed.

As for now demographically knowing whether I have a degree or not, let alone how I voted. Or my neighbour who is a builder or the family across the road who have three small children .....hey I'd love to know. 

I do have to say that there are some very patronising articles being bandied around which tend to insinuate that those of a lower income and who may not have a degree didn't understand the complexity of the issues and voted leave. Maybe their life experiences gives them a different perspective to their better off counterparts. Everyone is entitled to an opinion ....that is called democracy.

Right or wrong the decision has been made. Once the drama and point scoring in the media has died down I will wait with interest to see what happens next .....

J


----------



## CuddleMonster

noushka05 said:


> Its seems to be more to do with education, rather than old v young.


I guess those with degrees are more likely to be higher earners, so have more to lose out of the EU. I heard someone on the radio yesterday saying that it's easier to take risks if you don't have much as you have less to lose. If you have a nice life and a holiday home abroad, you probably don't want to rock the boat. If you are unemployed or on minimum wage, it's easier to think 'can I be worse off?'

I wish people would stop assuming they know how someone voted based on their age or situation in life though. Because you don't know about individuals.


----------



## kimthecat

@CuddleMonster Absolutely. Couldn't have put that better myself.


----------



## noushka05

CuddleMonster said:


> I guess those with degrees are more likely to be higher earners, so have more to lose out of the EU. I heard someone on the radio yesterday saying that it's easier to take risks if you don't have much as you have less to lose. If you have a nice life and a holiday home abroad, you probably don't want to rock the boat. If you are unemployed or on minimum wage, it's easier to think 'can I be worse off?'
> 
> I wish people would stop assuming they know how someone voted based on their age or situation in life though. Because you don't know about individuals.


I've found the source of that graph - its the Financial Times. https://next.ft.com/content/1ce1a720-ce94-3c32-a689-8d2356388a1f

Votes were reported in each of 382 counting areas: 382 local government districts in England, Wales and Scotland, plus Northern Ireland as a single entity and finally Gibraltar. Between the UK's census and other official national statistics, data is available on the demographic and socio-economic characteristics of most or all of these areas, allowing us to identify common factors among regions which voted one way or the other.

Who voted which way?

Below are five of the most statistically significant of these factors. Polling ahead of the referendum had long since identified education as one of the fundamental drivers of voting intention, and the demographic data shows that this was absolutely the case.


----------



## emmaviolet

MollySmith said:


> I have seen that article and it's sobering reading.
> 
> I think the next few days will uncover a lot from both camps. I hope that I am proved wrong and leaving is the right thing to do. I am genuinely anxious and wish that someone apart from Farage (whom I've heard has appointed himself negotiator of the exit... I do hope that's not true), would step up from Leave and give some stability in a time of much turmoil.


Noush, I read that yesterday, I thought it was a perfect article to try to show them for what they are.
I do worry, however, that Boris gets away with murder, should he get in to number 10 and make endless cuts and blunders, the public would just roll their eyes because people (very wrongly) see him as a lovable buffoon.

I truly cannot believe Nigel Farage has so much power over the UK, yet he didn't even win his own seat as an MP.
I thought that was how democracy worked? He shouldn't have any say in the UK's future, yet somehow he is the man in charge and un-elected too. This just is not right. UKIP has one seat, Farage is not our PM and he isn't even an MP, so who put him in charge of the UK.

I am very surprised that the brexit people seem to have gone into hiding, no show of power, no explaining where they are going from here. Right now we are all in limbo and not one of them is coming out to tell us what our country will look like in a couple of years. I really think they didn't believe this would happen and don't have a true plan of what to do now.


----------



## CuddleMonster

@noushka05 I think it is more likely the link between higher education & better jobs than education itself. So much of the remain campaign was focussed on money and ease of travel in the EU - irrelevant if you are on minimum wage! They really seemed to ignore poorer people, which was a major mistake because in a referendum, everyone is equal and has the same power, regardless of income or background.

I made my decision based on my independent research. Neither the leave or remain campaign convinced me with their official literature.


----------



## emmaviolet

Happy Paws said:


> I heard a man on the TV last night say...He voted out because he expect the remain vote to win, now he thinks he's voted the wrong way.
> 
> Just makes you wonder now many others did the same


I have also read of some people who wanted to vote remain, they didn't want to go out in the rain so thought by not voting they would still count as a remain vote as it was the status quo.

I really feel it starts at school age, from he news I have seen people who have no idea about politics or voting. I was lucky, I went to a very good sixth form who told us an awful lot about voting, the importance of voting and how to vote. 
More needs to be done, so we have future generations who can think and research for themselves too, not just repeat soundbites.


----------



## CuddleMonster

Unfortunately, unless you give each person an IQ test before allowing them to vote, there is no way of avoiding stupidity in elections! 

In the past I have encountered someone who voted labour because she had grown up under a conservative government and thought it would be 'fun' to have a change. And another who decided to vote labour because Tony Blair was 'dishy' and then changed her mind in the queue at the polling station when a good-looking guy wearing a blue rosette walked past! Reasons I've heard for voting remain/leave have been equally trivial or ill-thought-out.


----------



## Happy Paws2

emmaviolet said:


> I have also read of some people who wanted to vote remain, they didn't want to go out in the rain so thought by not voting they would still count as a remain vote as it was the status quo.
> 
> I really feel it starts at school age, from he news I have seen people who have no idea about politics or voting. *I was lucky, I went to a very good sixth form who told us an awful lot about voting, the importance of voting and how to vote. *
> More needs to be done, so we have future generations who can think and research for themselves too, not just repeat soundbites.


Well I didn't. but I think I'm bright enough to work out why I should vote ( which is something I always do) and work out who I feel I should get my vote.


----------



## emmaviolet

Happy Paws said:


> Well I didn't. but I think I'm bright enough to work out why I should vote ( which is something I always do) and work out who I feel I should get my vote.


That's good, but it still stands many do not understand, many presume not voting means you have a vote that counts as staus quo.

I still believe education in the matter will only help.


----------



## emmaviolet

CuddleMonster said:


> Unfortunately, unless you give each person an IQ test before allowing them to vote, there is no way of avoiding stupidity in elections!
> 
> In the past I have encountered someone who voted labour because she had grown up under a conservative government and thought it would be 'fun' to have a change. And another who decided to vote labour because Tony Blair was 'dishy' and then changed her mind in the queue at the polling station when a good-looking guy wearing a blue rosette walked past! Reasons I've heard for voting remain/leave have been equally trivial or ill-thought-out.


Good idea, with the IQ test! 

Seriously though, it seems a common problem, I watched the Wright stuff on Friday and Matthew said his friend voted for the first time in his life, he voted , the reason, the sun told him to.


----------



## Happy Paws2

emmaviolet said:


> *That's good,* but it still stands many do not understand, many presume not voting means you have a vote that counts as staus quo.
> 
> I still believe education in the matter will only help.


and patronizing


----------



## CuddleMonster

Educating schoolchildren about politics would help as long as it was about the facts of elections/government only and not biased by the educator's political views. But even then, you have to contend with what the kids are being taught by their parents at home and they are still likely to vote the way their families do until they are older.

I have two friends with children 6 and under who claim their kids are distraught by the referendum result. One also claimed her child was in floods of tears when the Tories were voted in during the last election. There is no way children of that age can have a real understanding of politics - they are obviously distraught because their parents say the results are terrible. So they are likely to grow up strongly EU and strongly labour unless they go through a rebellious phase and go the opposite way to annoy their parents!


----------



## Vanessa131

Our area was very much out, it is a small minded, on the whole racist town with one of the largest council estates in the country, so anyone non-white who doesn't have a Grantham accent is generally hated. 

I have seen a few posters in peoples windows along the lines of "f*ck of Poles" or "job stealing scum go home". Our local BNP group is still going strong, they held talks in our pubs about how voting out will remove all of our foreign scum and we'll all get jobs, rather ironic considering many of these people have zero intention of ever working and can't speak without adding a list of swear words to whatever they say. 

They have also protested as they think all the benefits lost by immigrants (as they genuinely believe no immigrants work and get loads of free money) should be divided up and given to local unemployed people, so themselves. 

They made a rather amusing leaflet that was pro-brexit, I should have kept it so I could have scanned it, the spelling was fantastic, a 6 year old could do better!


----------



## havoc

_Good idea, with the IQ test!_
Mental capacity is covered under electoral law - and not required.


----------



## havoc

_In the past I have encountered someone who voted labour because she had grown up under a conservative government and thought it would be 'fun' to have a change._
I actually have no problem with that in a general election. There isn't the same potential for permanent damage.


----------



## emmaviolet

Happy Paws said:


> and patronizing


I'm sorry, how? It was never, I was stating a fact about those who do not understand how voting works, it is good that you do. I was in no way patronising you.


----------



## CuddleMonster

havoc said:


> _In the past I have encountered someone who voted labour because she had grown up under a conservative government and thought it would be 'fun' to have a change._
> I actually have no problem with that in a general election. There isn't the same potential for permanent damage.


Agreed it's not as permanent, but I still think it is irresponsible to use your vote as if it is some kind of party game! A party can do a lot of good or harm during its term in office, so election votes still need to be made sensibly.


----------



## havoc

_This may be a dumb question, but can someone explain to me how they know which age groups voted which way? Because votes are anonymous_
Not true. You get to *cast *your vote 'in secret' but that isn't the same thing as your vote being anonymous.


----------



## Happy Paws2

havoc said:


> _This may be a dumb question, but can someone explain to me how they know which age groups voted which way? Because votes are anonymous_
> Not true. You get to *cast *your vote 'in *secret*' but that isn't the same thing as your vote being anonymous.


How is it secret, when you hand in your card which has a number on it they write that number on your voting form. So of cause they know who's vote and which way.


----------



## havoc

Isn't that what I just said? You get to *cast* your vote in secret but it isn't anonymous


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Happy Paws said:


> How is it secret, when you hand in your card which has a number on it they write that number on your voting form. So of cause they know who's vote and which way.


There will always be conspiracy theories about the government cross checking every vote to see who voted for whom and then then cross checking again to get our age and yet again to get our income ...but I think in general they are just that conspiracy theories .....poor disposal after a year has come into the news before but that is a different subject.

This is the authority guidelines to what actually happens -

*If my vote is secret, why does the Poll Clerk write my elector number on the counterfoil?*

*The Poll Clerk writes your elector number on the list of the ballot papers to protect your vote. Imagine if someone came into your polling station before you and said that they were you. They would be given a ballot paper, vote on it and put it into the ballot box. How would you feel when you came to the polling station later and asked for your ballot paper, to be told that you had already voted!

The number helps us to ensure that any fraudulent voting can be discovered and discounted but it is only used if a fraudulent vote is suspected.

It is true, that technically it is possible to match up the elector number on the ballot paper with the list (called a Corresponding Number List). However, at the close of polling, the list is sealed in a separate packet from that of the actual ballot papers and only a court can open them.

All documents are also physically destroyed (by shredding) after 12 months.

In addition there is a very strong history and tradition of secrecy of the ballot in the UK and of the integrity of those who are responsible to organise and administer the whole election process.

No one should be the slightest concerned that how they have voted is anything but secret, unless they have fraudulently cast a vote.
*
J


----------



## Satori

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> There will always be conspiracy theories about the government cross checking every vote to see who voted for whom and then then cross checking again to get our age and yet again to get our income ...but I think in general they are just that conspiracy theories .....poor disposal after a year has come into the news before but that is a different subject.
> 
> This is the authority guidelines to what actually happens -
> 
> *If my vote is secret, why does the Poll Clerk write my elector number on the counterfoil?*
> 
> *The Poll Clerk writes your elector number on the list of the ballot papers to protect your vote. Imagine if someone came into your polling station before you and said that they were you. They would be given a ballot paper, vote on it and put it into the ballot box. How would you feel when you came to the polling station later and asked for your ballot paper, to be told that you had already voted!
> 
> The number helps us to ensure that any fraudulent voting can be discovered and discounted but it is only used if a fraudulent vote is suspected.
> 
> It is true, that technically it is possible to match up the elector number on the ballot paper with the list (called a Corresponding Number List). However, at the close of polling, the list is sealed in a separate packet from that of the actual ballot papers and only a court can open them.
> 
> All documents are also physically destroyed (by shredding) after 12 months.
> 
> In addition there is a very strong history and tradition of secrecy of the ballot in the UK and of the integrity of those who are responsible to organise and administer the whole election process.
> 
> No one should be the slightest concerned that how they have voted is anything but secret, unless they have fraudulently cast a vote.
> *
> J


Absolutely. It is in most cases illegal to store and use personally identifiable data for any purpose other than that for which it was explicitly collected. The demographic 'analysis' of this vote is not reliable because there were no significant exit polls; only the very crudest of assumptions can be made.


----------



## emmaviolet

IDS.
'The £350m was an extrapolation. It was never total.'

Great news! Whoever truly believed a word any of them said must live in another world!


----------



## havoc

Well they're going to have to get their heads round real figures now and lead us all into the bright new world.


----------



## MollySmith

emmaviolet said:


> That's good, but it still stands many do not understand, many presume not voting means you have a vote that counts as staus quo.
> 
> I still believe education in the matter will only help.





Happy Paws said:


> and patronizing


But when you see people on the news saying that they didn't think that voting leave would count and we'd never really do it, you do have to question the intelligence of some.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> But when you see people on the news saying that they didn't think that voting leave would count and we'd never really do it, you do have to question the intelligence of some.


I agree.... it was the remark made to me I found patronizing.


----------



## emmaviolet

Happy Paws said:


> I agree.... it was the remark made to me I found patronizing.


Was it 'that's good' you found patronising?
Because if it was, it's something I type a lot, just as an agreement if anything.


----------



## Happy Paws2

emmaviolet said:


> Was it 'that's good' you found patronising?
> Because if it was, it's something I type a lot, just as an agreement if anything.


I was just a bit touchy this morning. All forgotten now


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> Same here - I want to be proved wrong, but in the hands of a bunch of climate change denying liars I'm finding it really hard to be positive lol And thats before I'd heard Farage may be doing the negotiating  Have you seen how appallingly hes behaved as an MEP in Europe? I don't think they will look upon his request very favourably at all.


I have a horrible feeling that Farage can take a good advantage of this situation though  . Labour now in turmoil, the Tories all over the place too. He's in a favourable place to encourage stability as he's the only one speaking. His voters and possible voters might look kindly on that. Doubtless in 25 years of campaigning, he has plotted all the potential fallouts.


----------



## havoc

Dream team - Boris and Farage. Happy days.


----------



## MilleD

CuddleMonster said:


> Unfortunately, unless you give each person an IQ test before allowing them to vote, there is no way of avoiding stupidity in elections!
> 
> .


So which way was the 'stupid' way to vote in your opinion?


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws said:


> How is it secret, when you hand in your card which has a number on it they write that number on your voting form. So of cause they know who's vote and which way.


That's not how they work out the demographics of voting though. Can you imagine how long it would take?


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> I've found the source of that graph - its the Financial Times. https://next.ft.com/content/1ce1a720-ce94-3c32-a689-8d2356388a1f
> 
> Votes were reported in each of 382 counting areas: 382 local government districts in England, Wales and Scotland, plus Northern Ireland as a single entity and finally Gibraltar. Between the UK's census and other official national statistics, data is available on the demographic and socio-economic characteristics of most or all of these areas, allowing us to identify common factors among regions which voted one way or the other.
> 
> Who voted which way?
> 
> Below are five of the most statistically significant of these factors. Polling ahead of the referendum had long since identified education as one of the fundamental drivers of voting intention, and the demographic data shows that this was absolutely the case.


Thank goodness all those polls are accurate then eh?


----------



## emmaviolet

Faisal Islam on sky news just told them that he was talking to a Conservative MP who is close to Boris, on leave.
He asked where was the leave plan, he said there isn't one, we don't have one, it should have been number 10 making one.

Make of that what you will, but there is no plan from those who pushed for us to vote leave, there is no idea of the way forward.


----------



## Little-moomin

All I can say is I am very disappointed and not what I hoped, or expected.


----------



## havoc

It's disgraceful. I was a bit annoyed at DC when he first announced his resignation but then realised it's the leave campaigners who presumably had the plans and strategies so only right he lets them get on with it. Now we find out they never had any intention of doing the job at all. I suppose they planned on staying out of the way until the work was done and then they could spend years blaming others for not negotiating the right terms for our exit.


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> He asked where was the leave plan, he said there isn't one, we don't have one, it should have been number 10 making one.


Of course it should have been No 10 that had contingency plans, they are our elected government and they called the referendum. You can't go blaming others for the failings of our government.
Boris and Farage don't hold enough power to make any plans or decisions. Why should they even try? 
Hell, even the EU don't seem to know what to do and have lost control completely. Some are saying one thing and others another, even within the same countries.

They all just hid their heads in the sand and believed it wouldn't happen.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Boris and Farage don't hold enough power to make any plans or decisions.


Didn't stop Boris and Gove from making manifesto pledges public during the campaign through did it.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Didn't stop Boris and Gove from making manifesto pledges public during the campaign through did it.


I didn't hear them, what were they?

The only person to come out of this looking competent is the governor of the Bank of England


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, EmmaViolet:

Faisal Islam on Sky news [said] he was talking to a Conservative MP... close to Boris, [re Brexit].
He asked where's the leave plan, [MP] said there isn't one, ... it should have been number 10 making one.

... there's no plan from those who pushed for us to vote leave, ...no idea of the way forward.

/QUOTE
.
.
I didn't 'like' this b/c it's such delightful news, it's awful - but to thank U for the info, disturbing as it is. 
.
All the flailing about since the final tally, with no victorious, _"*Now*, we can ____(list of projects)___ ...", _
gave me the horrible feeling that we'd arrived in the middle of a swamp, complete with crocs & sinkholes, & no one had a map.
.
Why "we"? - B/c no nation can do something this enormous, & not affect the world as a whole. The UK has, for good or ill, done something that will have repercussions for a long time, major & minor - & not only for their own peoples.
.
Like it or lump it, we're all in the muck, now - the USA won't be standing dry-shod & smiling, watching from the bank. We might not be neck-deep, but we won't be clean & dry, either. And the rest of the world had no vote - but the referendum will have effects far beyond the UK's borders, many of which we can't predict.
.
.
.


----------



## westie~ma

MollySmith said:


> But when you see people on the news saying that *they didn't think that voting leave would count and we'd never really do it*, you do have to question the intelligence of some.


I thought this purely on the basis that everyone I came in contact with in real life were voting remain and I mean everyone, not one person I know was voting Leave and I have been scoffed at for saying I was going to be voting Leave.

Does that make me unintelligent or just naive for believing them? I live in a Labour stronghold in South Wales that voted Leave.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I didn't hear them, what were they?
> 
> The only person to come out of this looking competent is the governor of the Bank of England


Finance Bill:This would abolish the 5 per cent rate of VAT on household energy bills. Paid for by savings from the UK's contributions to the EU budget.

National Health Service (Funding Target) Bill: Requirement that by the next general election, the NHS receives a £100million per week real-terms cash transfusion on top of current plans. Paid for by savings from the UK's contributions to EU budget.

Asylum and Immigration Control Bill: Ends the automatic right of all EU citizens to enter the UK by the next election. Criminals refused entry and a 'non-discriminatory' Australian points-based system, based on skills, introduced for those wishing to enter from inside and outside the EU.

European Union Law (Emergency Provisions) Bill: This would end the European Court of Justice's control over national security, allow ministers to remove EU citizens whose presence is not conducive to the public good - including terrorists and serious criminals - and end the growing use of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights to overrule UK law.

Free Trade Bill: The UK would leave the EU's 'common commercial policy'. That would restore the UK Government's power to set its own trade policy. UK would take back seat on the World Trade Organization.

European Communities Act 1972 (Repeal) Bill: Ensures the European Communities Act 1972 - the legal basis for supremacy of EU law - is repealed. EU Treaties will cease to form part of UK law and European Court's jurisdiction will end. UK would cease to contribute to the EU budget. EU law to be transferred into domestic law with Parliament choosing what to keep, remove or amend.

Sounds as though they had it all planned out unless it was all a con and lies to get votes.

I agree about the Bank of England. Have been calls for his resignation from some Brexiters however as he was against the idea of brexit and "cannot be trusted".


----------



## emmaviolet

Leashedforlife, yes, the reporter didn't know what to say, she sat speechless for a few seconds.

He has put it on his personal twitter page also.


----------



## MollySmith

westie~ma said:


> I thought this purely on the basis that everyone I came in contact with in real life were voting remain and I mean everyone, not one person I know was voting Leave and I have been scoffed at for saying I was going to be voting Leave.
> 
> Does that make me unintelligent or just naive for believing them?


I am referring to those who took to Google to search for 'What is the EU' after the vote, to the 25,000 who spoilt their ballot paper, who didn't take a little time to research beyond the hyperbole.


----------



## Goblin

Well can all of those 90 people on this forum say they are happy with the result?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Didn't stop Boris and Gove from making manifesto pledges public during the campaign through did it.


C' Mon, now Farage denied any promises on NHS till it was pointed to him it was on his bus!

BJ said he never promised to cut immigration but to control it.
He does not seem like someone happy does he?
Like if he got caught in his own spin.

The only one who came up with a plan is Nicola and her plan is" lets get out of here"...

Meanwhile immigrant bashing in pogrom style started already.









If any political leader talks the talk should then if they win be allowed to walk the walk?

Or was clever BJ betting on Leave losing just slightly and him being called to replace DC as PM ...he outsmarted himself then...


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> Or was clever BJ betting on Leave losing just slightly and him being called to replace DC as PM ...he outsmarted himself then...


I think this is what happened. Time now to reap the harvest though. Not that I'm vindictive at all.


----------



## havoc

I'm not feeling vindictive but it does make more sense for the Brexit politicians to carry out the exit. It will still be no 10, it will still be the government, it will be those who knew how it was all going to work to our advantage.


----------



## Goblin

havoc said:


> it will be those who knew how it was all going to work to our advantage.


See I don't believe there were any really.


----------



## westie~ma

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, EmmaViolet:
> 
> Faisal Islam on Sky news [said] he was talking to a Conservative MP... close to Boris, [re Brexit].
> He asked where's the leave plan, [MP] said there isn't one, ... it should have been number 10 making one.
> 
> ... there's no plan from those who pushed for us to vote leave, ...no idea of the way forward.
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> I didn't 'like' this b/c it's such delightful news, it's awful - but to thank U for the info, disturbing as it is.
> .
> All the flailing about since the final tally, with no victorious, _"*Now*, we can ____(list of projects)___ ...", _
> gave me the horrible feeling that we'd arrived in the middle of a swamp, complete with crocs & sinkholes, & no one had a map.
> .
> Why "we"? - B/c no nation can do something this enormous, & not affect the world as a whole. The UK has, for good or ill, done something that will have repercussions for a long time, major & minor - & not only for their own peoples.
> .
> Like it or lump it, we're all in the muck, now - the USA won't be standing dry-shod & smiling, watching from the bank. We might not be neck-deep, but we won't be clean & dry, either. And the rest of the world had no vote - but the referendum will have effects far beyond the UK's borders, many of which we can't predict.
> .
> .
> .


This is why I was critical of DC's timing his resignation so disastrously. Plus our Chancellor has gone MIA, he's a chinless wonder anyway but when we need real leadership, the only voices I've heard are from the Bank of England and Lord Digby Jones. Nicola Sturgeon is offering leadership but only to her Scottish voters.

I'm furious that the politicians have turned this Leave vote about themselves and their in-fighting. Instead they should show true business hard nosed determination and negotiate for the best deals UK can get.

Am wondering if they are all afraid of being forced into negotiating positions because it could mean their own personal political suicide.


----------



## Blitz

Moquette said:


> That's just anecdotal evidence, though. I could argue that most of my coworkers are under 25 and they all voted Remain, but that would also be anecdotal evidence.
> 
> What is a fact, however, is that the majority of young people voted Remain... which means exactly what it means - that most young people did see a better future in the EU.


How is it fact - there was no way to check unless it was done illegally and I am sure it would take weeks to go through every vote and match it to a name then check their age! There is only one indisputable fact and that is that more people across every age that is allowed to vote and who did vote voted for leave. Everything else is conjecture.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

noushka05 said:


> And look at some of these comments after this article as Daily Mail readers discover the awful truth how the rag duped them into voting brexit - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tgages-passports-health-cover.html#newcomment Oh dear ...





noushka05 said:


> Without fishing quotas fishing stocks will collapse. No fish - no industry. We already had a very good deal in the EU Brisbow - here are the facts - https://www.foe.co.uk/blog/what-has-eu-done-uk-fish
> 
> Cornwall voted for brexit then pleads to keep millions EU funding Funding that helped its fishermen & farmers - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...erwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html They've no chance!
> *
> "Not only do Cornwall's many farmers and fishermen benefit from the Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy respectively, but the county receives tens of millions of pounds a year in structural and convergence funds to support local economic growth and communities.*





Jesthar said:


> Some really unpleasant stories of post-vote behaviour are starting to surface. Quite a few stories from all over the country of foreign-looking people, even schookids, having random people come up to them in public places and shout variants of 'go home, we just voted you all out'. The police are involved in some of them, such as these cards posted through doors and handed out in Huntingdon:


Frightening stuff; certainly puts a negative slant on Brexit.

It's disgusting in my view that so much emphasis was placed on 'sending immigrants home' by certain factions during the Leave campaign. There is so much more to Brexit than immigration and thankfully I'm in no doubt most Leave voters think the same - but it's an unpleasant fact that many did/do not and I wish that aspect of the Leave campaign was given a lower profile.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Do not despair..









We will always have Corbyn.


----------



## CuddleMonster

MilleD said:


> So which way was the 'stupid' way to vote in your opinion?


I didn't say there was a 'stupid way' of voting in the referendum, just that you will always get people voting for stupid reasons. Like the girl who decided to vote Tory because she saw a good-looking Tory supporter, because how is the looks of one person who isn't even an MP going to affect the county?!!!

If you voted *leave* because after thinking about it, you believed that is the best choice for your country, your family or for you personally, I would say that is a good reason. 
If you voted* remain* because after thinking about it, you believed that is the best choice for your country, your family or for you personally, I would say that is a good reason.


----------



## westie~ma

MollySmith said:


> I am referring to those who took to Google to search for 'What is the EU' after the vote, to the 25,000 who spoilt their ballot paper, who didn't take a little time to research beyond the hyperbole.


Oh well, that's a bit sad looking up facts as basic as that after the vote


----------



## cheekyscrip

CuddleMonster said:


> I didn't say there was a 'stupid way' of voting in the referendum, just that you will always get people voting for stupid reasons. Like the girl who decided to vote Tory because she saw a good-looking Tory supporter, because how is the looks of one person who isn't even an MP going to affect the county?!!!
> 
> If you voted *leave* because after thinking about it, you believed that is the best choice for your country, your family or for you personally, I would say that is a good reason.
> If you voted* remain* because after thinking about it, you believed that is the best choice for your country, your family or for you personally, I would say that is a good reason.


If our MPs etc...thought Joe Blogg on average had no understanding, no knowledge to grasp the full meaning of Leave and its implications then putting referendum on the table just to win election...how actually dangerous and stupid?

People fell for promises...their own.wishful thinking...
I do not blame the people.

I blame those who understood and assured the nation that Leave is good for Britain.

Now you cannot ask anyone but them to prove that it will work.

BJ and Gove have to stand up ( I excuse Farage...he honestly did not know what he was about).


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

MollySmith said:


> But when you see people on the news saying that they didn't think that voting leave would count and we'd never really do it, you do have to question the intelligence of some.


My Dad was proposing he was going to do this a few weeks ago. It's strange because he's (normally!) very intelligent and one of the most informed people I know, so I have to question his motivation. I don't actually know if he went through with it in the end; I have always had the impression he was/is very much in the Remain camp.



havoc said:


> It's disgraceful. I was a bit annoyed at DC when he first announced his resignation but then realised it's the leave campaigners who presumably had the plans and strategies so only right he lets them get on with it. Now we find out they never had any intention of doing the job at all. I suppose they planned on staying out of the way until the work was done and then they could spend years blaming others for not negotiating the right terms for our exit.


I agree.

I understand Cameron is not a popular PM in the eyes of many, but I don't think it's right to criticise him for 'leaving us in the lurch' any I certainly don't see any of this as his doing.

He went ahead with the referendum - belatedly, as promised; he did not support the Leave campaign. It's misguided to attribute to him the result just because he was the one who ordered the referendum - faulty logic.

If I want Indian takeaway for dinner and my companions want pizza, and I hand out the pens for a vote - should I be criticised for letting someone else order the pizza when noone else wants Indian?

Why shouldn't the figures who wanted to Leave lead us now?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Goblin said:


> Well can all of those 90 people on this forum say they are happy with the result?


Lets wait and see how long it lasts


----------



## MollySmith

westie~ma said:


> Oh well, that's a bit sad looking up facts as basic as that after the vote


I thought frightening.

Cameron did ask a stupid question in the first place.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> We will always have Corbyn.


So far.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> Lets wait and see how long it lasts


Gibraltar sacrificed for nothing.
More ..if we have to go as a result of collapsed economy we have no EU passports. Just British ones....


----------



## kimthecat

If Scotland becomes independent and join the EU could you live there and become a naturalised citizen and then get an EU passport ?


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Oh and if one more person labels the worried Remain voters as 'sore losers' I'll go spare. This wasn't a competition nor was it a game. People voted to Leave or Remain based on what was important to them. Presumably the Leave voters would be equally gutted or concerned for the future had the result gone the other way.

If you call me a sore loser then I'll just label you a gloating winner.


----------



## havoc

_ There is so much more to Brexit than immigration and thankfully I'm in no doubt most Leave voters think the same - but it's an unpleasant fact that many did/do not and I wish that aspect of the Leave campaign was given a lower profile._
But every Brexit politician I heard interviewed after the poll said that on the streets, talking to voters it was immigration, immigration, immigration which mattered. That's the message they were getting from the people. It's the biggest issue by far in some areas including mine.


----------



## emmaviolet

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Oh and if one more person labels the worried Remain voters as 'sore losers' I'll go spare. This wasn't a competition nor was it a game. People voted to Leave or Remain based on what was important to them. Presumably the Leave voters would be equally gutted or concerned for the future had the result gone the other way.
> 
> If you call me a sore loser then I'll just label you a gloating winner.


You have hit the nail on the head here.

The way I see it though, there are no winners, only Boris.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> If Scotland becomes independent and join the EU could you live there and become a naturalised citizen and then get an EU passport ?


Will stay in Gib with my OH. As long as possible. 
Then depends on who wants us..plus OH refuses any offer of EU passport from Spain.

As to Corbyn...you don't say!!!
Only party leader left standing ( or lying, drunk happiness and more...)..would be Farage?

Oh...hold on..Lib Dems are creeping out of woodwork...
Cannot belive it! Offering second referendum if they won...

So wish I were Russian and could just laugh heartily at all that....

Sadly I do not want to be Russian...
But better do not tell anyone I was born Polish...
It is like being a Jew in pre war Germany....


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Will stay in Gib with my OH. As long as possible.
> Then depends on who wants us..plus OH refuses any offer of EU passport from Spain.
> 
> As to Corbyn...you don't say!!!
> Only party leader left standing ( or lying, drunk happiness and more...)..would be Farage?
> 
> Oh...hold on..Lib Dems are creeping out of woodwork...
> Cannot belive it! Offering second referendum if they won...
> 
> ....


Farage doesn't have a seat , he cant stand in Parliament, thank goodness.
The Libs , unbelievable ! i used to vote for them before they put up uni fees.
( see young people , oldies do sometimes care for the young !)
Don't know who to vote for any more.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

havoc said:


> _ There is so much more to Brexit than immigration and thankfully I'm in no doubt most Leave voters think the same - but it's an unpleasant fact that many did/do not and I wish that aspect of the Leave campaign was given a lower profile._
> But every Brexit politician I heard interviewed after the poll said that on the streets, talking to voters it was immigration, immigration, immigration which mattered. That's the message they were getting from the people. It's the biggest issue by far in some areas including mine.


Do we have a consensus on whether the Leave voters on here chose to Leave primarily because of immigration?


----------



## havoc

_If Scotland becomes independent and join the EU could you live there and become a naturalised citizen and then get an EU passport ?_
Doesn't have to be Scotland. There are Brits all over Europe looking to become citizens of the country they live and work in. Heard an auditor in Poland saying that's what he'd do. He'd been there since before Poland was a member and said the thought of going back to standing in queues to get paperwork sorted isn't something he'd want to go back to.


----------



## emmaviolet

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Do we have a consensus on whether the Leave voters on here chose to Leave primarily because of immigration?


I wonder if the vote would have won had Farage come out with what he said today, that we will be in recession?

I don't see many people jumping on that bandwagon. They jumped at the 350 million.


----------



## havoc

_Do we have a consensus on whether the Leave voters on here chose to Leave primarily because of immigration?_
Sadly won't happen because concerns over immigration are automatically labelled as racist.


----------



## havoc

_Farage doesn't have a seat_
I know, ironic isn't it? The man who has claimed we're controlled by the unelected in Brussels couldn't get elected here and is somehow centre stage.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Do we have a consensus on whether the Leave voters on here chose to Leave primarily because of immigration?


This was posted earlier. It does give a wider view to why people voted Leave.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu

J


----------



## Guest

Ceiling Kitty said:


> This wasn't a competition nor was it a game.


Thank you for articulating something that has been niggling at me reading some of the responses on this thread (and others).
No, this was not a competition, or a game to be won or lost. Regardless of the outcome, guess what? As a country, you're all in this together. 
Enough already with dividing the country up in winners and losers, time now to work together as fellow countrymen and work this path out together.


----------



## havoc

Just seen - apparently flyers are being posted in Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire say 'Polish vermin out'.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

havoc said:


> Just seen - apparently flyers are being posted in Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire say 'Polish vermin out'.


That was posted further up @havoc. Abhorrent, isn't it?


----------



## Pappychi

havoc said:


> Just seen - apparently flyers are being posted in Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire say 'Polish vermin out'.


Vile.

This kind of attitude would make me laugh if it wasn't so disgusting. One does have to wonder if these people realise that the very language they speak is an amalgamation of several other languages? That it's a language which 'mugs' other languages for their grammar and words etc.

There is not such thing as 'Pure British'.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Do we have a consensus on whether the Leave voters on here chose to Leave primarily because of immigration?


It was one of the factors but not the main one in my decision to vote to leave.


----------



## havoc

I hadn't seen it on this thread but I do find it so sad. I said way back that I hoped a leave vote wouldn't be seen as a mandate for such behaviour - obviously a vain hope.


----------



## Blitz

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Do we have a consensus on whether the Leave voters on here chose to Leave primarily because of immigration?


It did not come into my thinking but it was the main reason a friend of mine voted leave. She was not being racist, she is concerned that the UK is going to collapse under the weight of an extra needy population wherever they might come from.



havoc said:


> _Do we have a consensus on whether the Leave voters on here chose to Leave primarily because of immigration?_
> Sadly won't happen because concerns over immigration are automatically labelled as racist.


As above why the heck should it be labelled as racist. Anyone thinking that is racist must be racist themselves to even consider it might be the reason for concern over immigration. Not saying a lot of people are not racist but that is a separate issue. And of course something like this is bringing out the racists as they must think they have free rein to say what they have always thought but kept a bit quiet over.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Finance Bill:This would abolish the 5 per cent rate of VAT on household energy bills. Paid for by savings from the UK's contributions to the EU budget.
> 
> National Health Service (Funding Target) Bill: Requirement that by the next general election, the NHS receives a £100million per week real-terms cash transfusion on top of current plans. Paid for by savings from the UK's contributions to EU budget.
> 
> Asylum and Immigration Control Bill: Ends the automatic right of all EU citizens to enter the UK by the next election. Criminals refused entry and a 'non-discriminatory' Australian points-based system, based on skills, introduced for those wishing to enter from inside and outside the EU.
> 
> European Union Law (Emergency Provisions) Bill: This would end the European Court of Justice's control over national security, allow ministers to remove EU citizens whose presence is not conducive to the public good - including terrorists and serious criminals - and end the growing use of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights to overrule UK law.
> 
> Free Trade Bill: The UK would leave the EU's 'common commercial policy'. That would restore the UK Government's power to set its own trade policy. UK would take back seat on the World Trade Organization.
> 
> European Communities Act 1972 (Repeal) Bill: Ensures the European Communities Act 1972 - the legal basis for supremacy of EU law - is repealed. EU Treaties will cease to form part of UK law and European Court's jurisdiction will end. UK would cease to contribute to the EU budget. EU law to be transferred into domestic law with Parliament choosing what to keep, remove or amend.
> 
> Sounds as though they had it all planned out unless it was all a con and lies to get votes.
> 
> I agree about the Bank of England. Have been calls for his resignation from some Brexiters however as he was against the idea of brexit and "cannot be trusted".


I watched the debates and never heard anyone claim these.

Where was this reported?

Oh found it, Daily Mail  Really reliable source

Even if it's true they said by 2020. That's obviously if one of them gets any power


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> Just seen - apparently flyers are being posted in Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire say 'Polish vermin out'.


 Maybe they should visit here and appreciate what the Poles did for us in the War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_War_Memorial


----------



## rona

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Do we have a consensus on whether the Leave voters on here chose to Leave primarily because of immigration?


Not for me, it was democracy. The EU is not anywhere near democratic


----------



## kimthecat

Blitz said:


> As above why the heck should it be labelled as racist. .


 I dunno but you could try asking on social media because the Remain supporters were saying that.


----------



## Honeys mum

Labour latest: 7 MPs QUIT in hours in HUGE cabinet coup to topple Jeremy Corbyn | Politics | News | Daily Express


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Maybe they should visit here and appreciate what the Poles did for us in the War
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_War_Memorial


Ironic..if they did not maybe then Battle of England would have been lost and no referendum...no attacks on Polish community...

Do not forget that the allies traded Poland to Stalin for over forth years of slavery that left that country in ruin.
They did not ask for communism.

That is why Poland, Czech etc...were less prosperous and EU was in a way repairing the wrongs done to those nations who fought on the sides of Allies.

EU was an attempt to unite divided Europe.
Pity it went this way...I see Merkel as contributing to it by her arbitrary decisions and ignoring protests from other members.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Goblin said: ↑
Well can all of those 90 people on this forum say they are happy with the result?



Happy Paws said:


> Lets wait and see how long it lasts


Well, if we are wrong, nobody will be laughing - not even you! 

Unfortunately, only the Remain voters seemed to have had the benefit if a crystal ball


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Not for me, it was democracy. The EU is not anywhere near democratic


Which is where you are wrong. Democracy takes many forms. The important rules and decisions are decided by those elected. The so called unelected bureaucrats are like civil servants only slightly enhanced with extremely limited powers in relation with the EU constitution. Love to see things run if we had to elect all UK civil servants. Nothing would be done. Instead we will have even less say on the global scale.

Lurcherlad, spin vs expert opinion and facts. Still maintain that was the choice. People voted for the spin.


----------



## kimthecat

Honeys mum said:


> Labour latest: 7 MPs QUIT in hours in HUGE cabinet coup to topple Jeremy Corbyn | Politics | News | Daily Express


yes , theres another thread about it with Hilary Benn in the title.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/hilary-benn-labour-mp-sacked.429314/page-2#post-1064578747


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> Goblin said: ↑
> Well can all of those 90 people on this forum say they are happy with the result?
> 
> Well, if we are wrong, nobody will be laughing - not even you!
> 
> Unfortunately, only the Remain voters seemed to have had the benefit if a crystal ball


1. No your right, we are all going to suffer.

2. No just good old common sense


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> *Which is where you are wrong.* Democracy takes many forms. The important rules and decisions are decided by those elected. The so called unelected bureaucrats are like civil servants. Love to see things run if we had to elect all of those. Instead we will have even less democracy on the global scale.


Oh so you are right are you? 
You are entitled to your opinion. Mine however is different. 
Does that makes you wrong instead of me?


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Well can all of those 90 people on this forum say they are happy with the result?


Can't speak for the other 89 but the corks are still popping here.

Labour ripping itself part was just the cherry on the cake.

Jaw ache from my permanent-grin.


----------



## Honeys mum

kimthecat said:


> yes , there another thread about it with Hilary Benn in the title


Sorry, I didn't see it, must have missed it.


----------



## Lurcherlad

havoc said:


> I hadn't seen it on this thread but I do find it so sad. I said way back that I hoped a leave vote wouldn't be seen as a mandate for such behaviour - obviously a vain hope.


That type of person doesn't need to wait for a referendum result to spread such purile hate. They would have done it anyway 

The vast majority of people in this country are, I believe, decent enough not to support such comments.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> 1. No your right, we are all going to suffer.
> 
> 2. No just good old common sense


Add knowledge. Reading what experts on those issues are actually saying and making decision not driven by fake promises of unelected moron or our own wishful thinking.

I just saw Brexit creating more problems than solving plus destruction of my Gibraltar for nothing to gain.
Britain will possibly just come off it just a bit shaken and a bit poorer...maybe losing Scotland...but definitely drowning us.
EU would be weaker too.

So classic of " cut your nose to spite your face".

The way to save the day would be GE and chosing MPs declaring their will to stop it.

If people wish so.

It almost looks like killing someone. And then trying CPR when we feel we actually may regret it.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> People voted for the spin.


I didn't


----------



## Vanessa131

Well, I have found out today that yet another friend has lost their job due to Brexit, so thats a total of seven now out of work. All of them have been in medical research, clearly not a vital service.


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Can't speak for the other 89 but the corks are still popping here.
> 
> Labour ripping itself part was just the cherry on the cake.
> 
> Jaw ache from my permanent-grin.


I can't smile at others worries and concerns


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> Can't speak for the other 89 but the corks are still popping here.
> 
> Labour ripping itself part was just the cherry on the cake.
> 
> Jaw ache from my permanent-grin.


Just waiting for the tory's to vote Boris as PM then he'll rip the country apart, will you laughing then.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Blitz said:


> It did not come into my thinking but it was the main reason a friend of mine voted leave. She was not being racist, she is concerned that the UK is going to collapse under the weight of an extra needy population wherever they might come from.
> 
> As above why the heck should it be labelled as racist. Anyone thinking that is racist must be racist themselves to even consider it might be the reason for concern over immigration. Not saying a lot of people are not racist but that is a separate issue. And of course something like this is bringing out the racists as they must think they have free rein to say what they have always thought but kept a bit quiet over.


Sadly, some posters on these threads have implied that very thing. Voted Leave - must be a racist 

I voted Leave and immigration was *one* of my concerns, however, I don't class myself as a racist.

I am of Italian descent and some of my family is black!


----------



## chissy 15

havoc said:


> Just seen - apparently flyers are being posted in Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire say 'Polish vermin out'.


This is so wrong  I voted leave and I struggled for weeks with my decision, the reason being my brother has a Swedish girlfriend and her future here is uncertain now. She has lived here years and always worked and contributed, hope it's true and she can stay!


----------



## Lurcherlad

Goblin said:


> Which is where you are wrong. Democracy takes many forms. The important rules and decisions are decided by those elected. The so called unelected bureaucrats are like civil servants only slightly enhanced with extremely limited powers in relation with the EU constitution. Love to see things run if we had to elect all UK civil servants. Nothing would be done. Instead we will have even less say on the global scale.
> 
> Lurcherlad, spin vs expert opinion and facts. Still maintain that was the choice. People voted for the spin.


In your opinion. Experts had varying opinions.

Even this morning on the political TV programmes both sides were arguing the toss - they didn't agree on anything.


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> I can't smile at others worries and concerns


Nor me. Maybe you should engage brain before typing.


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> Just waiting for the tory's to vote Boris as PM then he'll rip the country apart, will you laughing then.


I'll be fine, thanks.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Goblin said:


> spin vs expert opinion and facts. Still maintain that was the choice.


How I see it, the 'expert opinion and fact' only really refers to the short term. No one ..and I means no one, not even the most expert actuary, could totally predict what will happen ...that would require a crystal ball ...there are too many variables. It's the uncertainty that was actually predicted. And that didn't take rocket science.

And yes, we have uncertainty.

J


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Nor me. Maybe you should engage brain before typing.


Apparently I haven't got one


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> Apparently I haven't got one


Yes you have. You voted leave. :Mooning


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Not for me, it was democracy. The EU is not anywhere near democratic


Out of interest, what changes would you say it needs to make so as to pass the 'democracy' test?


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Out of interest, what changes would you say it needs to make so as to pass the 'democracy' test?


I don't think it's possible


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> I'll be fine, thanks.


I'm glad you think so!


----------



## Cleo38

havoc said:


> Just seen - apparently flyers are being posted in Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire say 'Polish vermin out'.


But are they really though or is this yet another internet myth (I've seen a few now)?

I really do not know what's wrong with people, I am shocked at some comments from certain friends who I thought were tolerant of other people's opinions .... as long as it's the same as theirs though .... & they are the remainers, which I was but have not blasted people for choosing this option or insulted them as it's their choice.

Some people I know who voted to leave are too worried to say this as there have been so many accustaions that they are stupid, uneducated, gulliable & selfish .... all because they ticked a different box.

This referendum has really shown just how divided we are & it is a shame that the mud slinging is still continuing amongst people who are supposed to be friends. We really should be just looking forward to the future now & seeing what this exit can do for us rather than scaremongering


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> I'm glad you think so!


You're so considerate. Thanks again.


----------



## havoc

_But are they really though or is this yet another internet myth_
My son lives there - he isn't an internet myth. I didn't find out about it from the net but from him which is why I was late to the party and didn't know it had already been mentioned on here.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> You're so considerate. Thanks again.


Now don't get to excited, remember "Pride always goes before a fall"


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> Now don't get to excited, remember "Pride always goes before a fall"


A fall is fine if you have a big enough cushion.


----------



## Colliebarmy

chissy 15 said:


> my brother has a Swedish girlfriend and her future here is uncertain now.


Hardly, and if he marries her she can stay whatever.....lol


----------



## Sacrechat

Satori said:


> Can't speak for the other 89 but the corks are still popping here.
> 
> Labour ripping itself part was just the cherry on the cake.
> 
> Jaw ache from my permanent-grin.


A sign of insanity maybe?


----------



## havoc

_I'll be fine, thanks.
I'm glad you think so!_
Satori will be fine as will I (and mine because I'll make sure they are). Much as a leave vote wasn't my choice I can see the opportunity to make money out of the uncertainty ahead and I'm sure I'm not alone. It will be conscience free because that opportunity has been deliberately created by a majority of voters.


----------



## Satori

Sacremist said:


> A sign of insanity maybe?


----------



## chissy 15

Colliebarmy said:


> Hardly, and if he marries her she can stay whatever.....lol


They don't seem to think this is so, I don't know, but they have apparently looked into it.


----------



## Siskin

Getting married to a someone from another country does not guarantee they can stay in this country as my son found out. His wife is from Georgia (former Russian state not USA state). It's been a long and expensive saga but now she finally has her residency card. Hopefully she will be able to apply To stay and become a UK citizen eventually.


----------



## MollySmith

Colliebarmy said:


> Hardly, and if he marries her she can stay whatever.....lol





chissy 15 said:


> They don't seem to think this is so, I don't know, but they have apparently looked into it.


I understand from close friends in a similar situation that this is not the case. They looked at this a while ago and it was another reason why I voted remain. Hardly a 'lol'  I'm rather surprised that this wasn't something all Leave voters were aware of. It affects many.

I hope that they find a resolution.


----------



## MollySmith

Lurcherlad said:


> That type of person doesn't need to wait for a referendum result to spread such purile hate. They would have done it anyway
> 
> The vast majority of people in this country are, I believe, decent enough not to support such comments.


Sadly in some cases it's given these awful people a voice - I'm sure not an intention of many leave voters but any excuse I imagine for these hateful people 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...r-referendum-vote_uk_576fccc4e4b0d2571149ca30

There are others and a FB group recording worrying sign but I'm loath to give it 'air time'.


----------



## cheekyscrip

My job is going bust...just a matter of time ...company may not wait two years to go...

I wish I had lots of pounds to convert to dollars before Brexit...
Surely @Satori did.

I think many foreigners would leave if they can. Especially those from EU.
The highly qualified ones whose skills are in demand.

Surely tourists would think twice...they might be taken for immigrants too..

We planned midterm hols in UK!
Ironic...
We are from Gibraltar but what if we have no time to show our passports?
And what is worse we voted to Remain.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

I've seriously got my doubts that we will actually leave, I am suspicious that they will find a way to wriggle out of it and not honour the results of the referendum.


----------



## MollySmith

I am utterly reffed out! 

My brain spent three weeks trying to keep up with the campaign before, then came the grief and upset of Friday and this weekend I have barely touched the house work, have an unfinished branding job for my own business and my dog thinks my face is a laptop and has left me for Coldplay on the telly which is a complete listening crime.

Thank you for making it a good discussion. I think we've all done rather well at not going too mad at each other and talked about it mostly like adults. Unlike my cousin (lawyer, lives in Thailand with a lovely £1m house on Greenwich Park) who is appalled that nobody agrees that Leave was the way to go and is now flouncing off FB as nobody is posting pictures of happy things and cute cats...

Lord only knows what tomorrow will bring. If a spaceship landed in Downing Street and Scotland sawed along Hadrian's Wall overnight, I'd be 'meh. I suppose we could all agree it's rather unpredictable if nothing else. 

Night!


----------



## stockwellcat.

I think it is incredibly sad how people have reacted to the Referendum Vote results by going around and being blatantly racist etc towards visitors and foreign residents in our country. The narrow mindedness and behaviour of these people is appalling.


----------



## CuddleMonster

I know that not every leave voter is a racist. I know that not every leave voter who voted based on immigration is a racist. But SOME leave voters were, and now feel the result justifies them in their behaviour.

Non-racist leave voters could really help by speaking out against this behaviour. I've heard a lot of leavers saying that accusations of racism against leavers are just 'made up' by remainers who are 'sore losers'. And a lot more saying 'how dare you call me racist' etc, etc, etc. I can understand people being hurt and upset if they feel they personally are being accused of racism, but the problem is that being so defensive just gives the impression of trying to cover up or excuse what is going on. I have huge respect for those leavers who've admitted the problem exists and who have spoken out against it.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
despite the rumors, _*no one on either side*_ has / had a crystal ball, & nobody knows what will happen in the next 48-hrs, let alone the next month, 6-mos, or year - & it won't all be played out & over in 12-mos, either.
.
The only utterly predictable part is the unpredictable -
the massive uncertainty that's been created, & that isn't a quickly-passing thing; it will take considerable time to move thru the body, by which i mean the *world*, not merely the UK; that body is both political & economic, & this big lump must move along from ingestion to digestion, & then exit, like a boa-constrictor digesting a massive meal.
.
Predicting huge uncertainty, especially for markets & investments, isn't rocket surgery.  I'm not sure that either campaign gave this after-effect enuf attention, truthfully.
.
.
.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

CuddleMonster said:


> I know that not every leave voter is a racist. I know that not every leave voter who voted based on immigration is a racist. But SOME leave voters were, and now feel the result justifies them in their behaviour.
> 
> Non-racist leave voters could really help by speaking out against this behaviour. I've heard a lot of leavers saying that accusations of racism against leavers are just 'made up' by remainers who are 'sore losers'. And a lot more saying 'how dare you call me racist' etc, etc, etc. I can understand people being hurt and upset if they feel they personally are being accused of racism, but the problem is that being so defensive just gives the impression of trying to cover up or excuse what is going on. I have huge respect for those leavers who've admitted the problem exists and who have spoken out against it.


If I saw or heard it then I most certainly would speak out, I'm not on facebook or twitter and have not come across any such hideous behaviour amongst people I know/neighbours etc but if I came across someone being racially abused in the street then I would stop and help them and report the idiots responsible.


----------



## kimthecat

*Adam Hills* ‏@*adamhillscomedy*  5h5 hours ago
Only 36% of 18-24 yo's voted in the EU referendum. Yet they complain that old people screwed them over. It's your own fault kids.

If that's the correct figure, he has a point.


----------



## kimthecat

*Adam Hills* ‏@*adamhillscomedy*  5h5 hours ago
Only 36% of 18-24 yo's voted in the EU referendum. Yet they complain that old people screwed them over. It's your own fault kids.

If that's the correct figure, he has a point.


----------



## Honeys mum

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I've seriously got my doubts that we will actually leave, I am suspicious that they will find a way to wriggle out of it and not honour the results of the referendum.


I wouldn't put it past them, but I hope that's not the case.

PM told to leave Downing Street immediately to stop Remain support | Politics | News | Daily Express


----------



## Honeys mum

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I've seriously got my doubts that we will actually leave, I am suspicious that they will find a way to wriggle out of it and not honour the results of the referendum.


I wouldn't put it past them, but I hope that's not the case.

PM told to leave Downing Street immediately to stop Remain support | Politics | News | Daily Express


----------



## rona

rottiepointerhouse said:


> If I saw or heard it then I most certainly would speak out, I'm not on facebook or twitter and have not come across any such hideous behaviour amongst people I know/neighbours etc but if I came across someone being racially abused in the street then I would stop and help them and report the idiots responsible.


This ^^^

There have been no reports of this in my local press


----------



## havoc

Deleted - seems to be double posting


----------



## havoc

It certainly is one unholy mess and it ain't going to sort any time soon. I can understand the panic in the Labour party as EU funding will stop in time to be felt by the next election and in the main it's areas where they're strong which will be hit. I shouldn't imagine No. 10 is seen as quite the des res it once was by anyone at the moment from any party.

A country in turmoil being run by a bunch of headless chickens - that must be how we're seen by the rest of the world at the moment.

I seem to be hit by a double posting error - sorry


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> I seem to be hit by a double posting error - sorry


 me too , perhaps it the site.


----------



## Honeys mum

Mine did as well


----------



## Colliebarmy

The pound has rallied, and it never hit the low achieved in Browns Banking Chaos


----------



## Colliebarmy

The pound has rallied, and it never hit the low achieved in Browns Banking Chaos


----------



## havoc

Well that's a shame - guy on the radio who helped fund the leave campaign has just said the best thing for business was the devaluation of the pound.


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> *Adam Hills* ‏@*adamhillscomedy*  5h5 hours ago
> Only 36% of 18-24 yo's voted in the EU referendum. Yet they complain that old people screwed them over. It's your own fault kids.
> 
> If that's the correct figure, he has a point.


Yeah - the rest of them are wollowing in the mud at Glastonbury. 

One even said that his gran shouldn't have had a vote because she's old and might die soon!

Possibly she lived through World War II or it's aftermath as well


----------



## Gemmaa

.


----------



## Gemmaa

.


----------



## MollySmith

My granny aged 94 voted remain.

I blame you leavers for me having to explain the concept of Twitter to her this weekend. Yeah!


----------



## MollySmith

The forum has been infected by a mad infection called Borisistis.


----------



## MollySmith

I strongly feel that rather than sinking into a debate about racism, let's at least try to be proactive, read this link and let's put an end to it on the forum.

I hope that no regular poster or indeed any lurker could guilty of such awful behaviour.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I knew Leave would win as soon as The Sun backed them, however I was very surprised at some of the results in the traditionally Labour strongholds of the North of England.


Leave won in traditionally labour strongholds in the North - with the exception of Liverpool. Where the Sun hasn't been sold in 27 years....


----------



## MollySmith

A Chief consultant for a leading finance firm is currently at the World Economic forum event. She reports that _Chinese Premier Li Keqiang told this event that China will focus on its economic relationship with the EU_. She also reports that _at least one Chinese and two Japanese company have put investment plans in the UK into the 'deep freezer'._

This is a real event, happening now with high level leaders of global banks, financing firms. That's her words, not made up by a politician and I do not know how she voted.

P.S. Don't shoot the messenger, I just think it's useful to share real time events that are not on the news and that affect real people.


----------



## emmaviolet

Well the leave people now need a holiday before they continue to sort out this mess.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arts-formal-process-quitting-EU.html#comments

Oh and the vote leave website has now been deleted, so nobody can now check on the website what they were promising if we left.


----------



## MollySmith

emmaviolet said:


> Well the leave people now need a holiday before they continue to sort out this mess.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arts-formal-process-quitting-EU.html#comments
> 
> Oh and the vote leave website has now been deleted, so nobody can now check on the website what they were promising if we left.


I'm sure that PF alone has enough screen grabs to reproduce it


----------



## cheekyscrip

Osbourne gave reassuring speech today about our strong economy.
As a result pound lost another percent to dollar and even some more to euro...


----------



## Milliepoochie

And now they need a holiday...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arts-formal-process-quitting-EU.html#comments

You actually couldn't make it up could you.


----------



## noushka05

Ceiling Kitty said:


> My Dad was proposing he was going to do this a few weeks ago. It's strange because he's (normally!) very intelligent and one of the most informed people I know, so I have to question his motivation. I don't actually know if he went through with it in the end; I have always had the impression he was/is very much in the Remain camp.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> I understand Cameron is not a popular PM in the eyes of many, but I don't think it's right to criticise him for 'leaving us in the lurch' any I certainly don't see any of this as his doing.
> 
> He went ahead with the referendum - belatedly, as promised; he did not support the Leave campaign. It's misguided to attribute to him the result just because he was the one who ordered the referendum - faulty logic.
> 
> If I want Indian takeaway for dinner and my companions want pizza, and I hand out the pens for a vote - should I be criticised for letting someone else order the pizza when noone else wants Indian?
> 
> Why shouldn't the figures who wanted to Leave lead us now?


It is Cameons fault though. The only reason he offered a referendum was to appease EU sceptics in his own party and see off the threat posed by ukip. Never believing he'd be voted back in office with a majority - he had to keep his promise. So this whole shambles is because he tried to buy off the Tory far right. What a legacy.


----------



## kimthecat

You'd have thought they would've had a Plan B 
I think they're meeting Wednesday.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I think it is incredibly sad how people have reacted to the Referendum Vote results by going around and being blatantly racist etc towards visitors and foreign residents in our country. The narrow mindedness and behaviour of these people is appalling.


Pity some people didn't think of that before posting "patriotic" banners seen earlier in the thread, the press and elsewhere. They so reminded me of those National Front stickers I used to see plastered everywhere including one that said, "Get Britain out of the Common Market".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising displaying the Union Jack and contrary to what some thought the EU had no plans to ban it.
Just that some narrow minded idiots misuse it to justify their behaviour.
I would say the same for other countries and organisations.


----------



## Jesthar

Automatic trading in RBS and Barclays shares suspended for a while today after their share prices dropped over 10% each (8% is a trigger point at which automatics failsafes kick in to allow an 'auction' sort of mechanism to determine a suitable trading value)


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I don't think it's possible


Okay - to ask it another way, what is it that currently makes it unacceptably undemocratic?


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> Pity some people didn't think of that before posting "patriotic" banners seen earlier in the thread, the press and elsewhere. They so reminded me of those National Front stickers I used to see plastered everywhere including one that said, "Get Britain out of the Common Market".
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising displaying the Union Jack and contrary to what some thought the EU had no plans to ban it.
> Just that some narrow minded idiots misuse it to justify their behaviour.
> I would say the same for other countries and organisations.


So, because of a minority of morons none of us can proudly wave our own flag? 

This is all getting ridiculous :Meh


----------



## havoc

_Osbourne gave reassuring speech today about our strong economy._
Apparently it's 'as good as it could be'. What does that mean?


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Okay - to ask it another way, what is it that currently makes it unacceptably undemocratic?


Mainly that all members do not have a vote on who runs it.
To be democratic all members should have a say on all the ruling individuals. That's democracy after all. 
There are about 750 MEPs only 70 odd are ours to elect, the others we have no say over. The same goes for all other countries and it's up to each individual to decide if they except that or not.

I only have to talk to my French BIL to know how different our countries can be, goodness knows how we ever agree on anything with places like Bulgaria. A lot of the decisions are actually detrimental to many countries

That's my main reason.


----------



## emmaviolet

havoc said:


> _Osbourne gave reassuring speech today about our strong economy._
> Apparently it's 'as good as it could be'. What does that mean?


31 year low....


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Pity some people didn't think of that before posting "patriotic" banners seen earlier in the thread, the press and elsewhere. They so reminded me of those National Front stickers I used to see plastered everywhere including one that said, "Get Britain out of the Common Market".
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising displaying the Union Jack and contrary to what some thought the EU had no plans to ban it.
> Just that some narrow minded idiots misuse it to justify their behaviour.
> I would say the same for other countries and organisations.


 Don't be so absurd. PF members are entitled to post a Union jack , they are not narrow minded idiots, if it reminds you of the NF that your problem . 
The Scots, welsh and irish can display their flags but the english are racist if they display the george cross or UJ thanks to Britain First.


----------



## Zaros

Lurcherlad said:


> So, because of a minority of morons none of us can proudly wave our own flag?
> 
> This is all getting ridiculous :Meh


That's incorrect.

Get yourself a ticket for the BBC proms and you can wave the union jack all night long if it makes you happy.


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> Mainly that all members do not have a vote on who runs it.
> To be democratic all members should have a say on all the ruling individuals. That's democracy after all.
> There are about 750 MEPs only 70 odd are ours to elect, the others we have no say over. The same goes for all other countries and it's up to each individual to decide if they except that or not.
> 
> I only have to talk to my French BIL to know how different our countries can be, goodness knows how we ever agree on anything with places like Bulgaria. A lot of the decisions are actually detrimental to many countries
> 
> That's my main reason.


Not to mention the European Commission, where the real power lies and whose members are not elected at all.


----------



## KittenKong

Lurcherlad said:


> So, because of a minority of morons none of us can proudly wave our own flag?
> 
> This is all getting ridiculous :Meh


I agree but I've yet to see, for example, a US flag with an added slogan, which could be taken by some to mean they are superior to others and to sod everyone else. That was the point I was making.

I apologise if anyone thought I was criticising them personally.

As I said I'm not criticising those who want to put up bunting, waving flags or whatever. I feel like doing that with the EU flag to show my solidarity with them actually!


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong 

Try Google 
warning offensive
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...bc1c9e1c6758275d435bb36770a6ffd2o0&ajaxhist=0

Wave the EU flag if you want , no ones stopping you .

Your posts dont make sense , you criticise people and then say you are not critising them


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36642662

Previous governor of the Bank of England Mervyn King talking a lot of sense.

I thought Cameron did a good job of reassuring people and explaining the processes being put in place

"David Cameron insists that the UK is "ready to confront what the future holds from a position of strength". Echoing what George Osborne said this morning, he says that while the markets may not have expected a Leave result, there are "robust contingency plans in place".

He also confirms the creation of a new Brexit unit in Whitehall comprised of officials and policy expertise across government to work on delivering the outcome of the referendum. It will report to the whole cabinet, he adds.

The PM says the devolved administrations will be fully involved in the negotiations

All key decisions will have to await for arrival of new prime minister but "a lot of work" can begin now, he says".

This from Labour MP Kate Hoey

"Labour MP Kate Hoey, who campaigned for a Leave vote, argues there has been some "hysteria" about what will happen to the country.

She also says that some MPs have implied that "decent people all over this country" who voted Leave "are somehow closet racists".

David Cameron pays tribute to her for breaking with her party's position of supporting Remain, saying: "I know it takes a lot of courage to stand out in the way that she has."

He adds that there are values of tolerance in people on both sides of the debate".


----------



## kimthecat

All this talk of divides the referendum has caused , they have always been there , the cracks were papered over and ignored .


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Not to mention the European Commission, where the real power lies and whose members are not elected at all.


Also if they can agree as a peace envoy and then employ that w**ker Tony Blair as chairman of the European Council on Tolerance and Reconciliation. What the F*ck................
How can you take them seriously


----------



## kimthecat

rottiepointerhouse said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36642662
> 
> ".
> 
> This from Labour MP Kate Hoey
> 
> "Labour MP Kate Hoey, who campaigned for a Leave vote, argues there has been some "hysteria" about what will happen to the country.
> 
> She also says that some MPs have implied that "decent people all over this country" who voted Leave "are somehow closet racists".
> 
> ".


yes , good for her but that was met with silence which is telling.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Also if they can agree as a peace envoy and then employ that w**ker Tony Blair as chairman of the European Council on Tolerance and Reconciliation. What the F*ck................


----------



## rona

rottiepointerhouse said:


> "David Cameron insists that the UK is "ready to confront what the future holds from a position of strength". Echoing what George Osborne said this morning,


Hoping he did it more convincingly than his woodentop chancellor

For those that don't know what a woodentop is


----------



## havoc

_31 year low...._

But he fixed the roof - he told us he'd fixed the roof. That makes everything OK doesn't it?


----------



## kimthecat

@rona

or like Bill and ben the Flower pot men. Who will be little weed.?


----------



## MollySmith

How this affects my line of work and education (all reasons why I vote to remain). Pentegram is, btw, a very important, global, leading design agency established for many years and someone that we've all been waiting to hear from. What they say is something _all_ creatives should listen to.

http://www.fastcodesign.com/3061279/how-brexit-could-impact-the-creative-industry

***

Professor Iain Martin, Vice Chancellor of Anglia Ruskin University, has issued the following statement:

"The referendum result to leave the EU is one of the most significant decisions taken in this country over a lifetime. It is an outcome that that will provide Anglia Ruskin University, like all higher education institutions, with challenges.

"It will take time for the full impact to become clear, but I want to reassure our current students and our staff, especially those from the EU, that at this point nothing has changed until the Government decides otherwise.

"We greatly value the education and research links that we have established across Europe, which have brought great value to many individuals, our university and the community more widely and we will be doing our utmost to maintain these.

"We will be working with our many colleagues and partners to ensure that people from around Europe can continue to come and study and work with us. We will also lobby to protect the funding that supports the diverse research and innovation that is taking place across the University.

***********

Professor Sir Leszek Borysiewicz, Vice Chancellor of the University of Cambridge (in a previous statement he was openly vote remain)

"We recognise that there is a great deal of uncertainty around the decision to leave the European Union. We would like to reassure our staff that a University working group has met this afternoon following the referendum result and various work streams are underway looking at staff, students, post docs, partnerships and nationality issues. I would like to stress again that, even though the result is in favour of leaving the European Union, there is no immediate change to the University's teaching, research and other activities. We will continue to work as normal.

It is not currently known what the impact of leaving the EU will have on UK policy on higher education tuition fees, loans and bursaries. However, the University can confirm that undergraduate EU students who are already studying at Cambridge, who have an offer to study at Cambridge, or who apply in 2016 to start their studies in 2017, will continue to be charged the UK fee rate applicable at the time, provided this continues to be permitted by UK law. Please note that the UK fee rate may be subject to increases, which may be annual.

The University will work with the Government to ensure it takes steps to ensure that staff and students from the EU can continue to work and study in this country. Cambridge thrives as part of a wide international community of academic staff and students, and we remain deeply committed to global cooperation and our dedicated staff who come from all over the world.

As I said this morning, there is work underway to consider how best to communicate internal developments with specific members of the University. Further information will be available next week on the University's website.

You may also be interested to read University UK's latest statement on the referendum result:

"Leaving the EU will create significant challenges for universities. Although this is not an outcome that we wished or campaigned for, we respect the decision of the UK electorate. We should remember that leaving the EU will not happen overnight, there will be a gradual exit process with significant opportunities to seek assurances and influence future policy.

"Throughout the transition period our focus will be on securing support that allows our universities to continue to be global in their outlook, internationally networked and an attractive destination for talented people from across Europe. These features are central to ensuring that British universities continue to be the best in the world.

"Our first priority will be to convince the UK Government to takes steps to ensure that staff and students from EU countries can continue to work and study at British universities and to promote the UK as a welcoming destination for the brightest and best minds. They make a powerful contribution to university research and teaching and have a positive impact on the British economy and society. We will also prioritise securing opportunities for our researchers and students to access vital pan-European programmes and build new global networks."


----------



## emmaviolet

So no Boris or Gove at the commons today.

Boris has admitted we need the free market, so borders will be open and we will still have to send them money, without getting as much back in terms of funding to the likes of Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall.

So really the only change that will happen is we won't have a seat at the table and a lot of instability, all for the option of being able to say 'we're free' because none of the other promises are going to come true.


----------



## havoc

To be fair they never were promises. They were always 'we could do this', 'we could do that'. Individuals decided what was important to them and assumed this money we pay to the EU would go wherever they most wanted.


----------



## MollySmith

I am not being 'doom and gloom'. This is the reality. I don't much give a rats bum who voted because it's too late (apart form that I am proud and will _always_ be proud to vote remain), but I would like to share factual, real accounts of what I've seen about the effects today.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Don't be so absurd. PF members are entitled to post a Union jack , they are not narrow minded idiots, if it reminds you of the NF that your problem .
> The Scots, welsh and irish can display their flags but the english are racist if they display the george cross or UJ thanks to Britain First.





KittenKong said:


> I agree but I've yet to see, for example, a US flag with an added slogan, which could be taken by some to mean they are superior to others and to sod everyone else. That was the point I was making.
> 
> I apologise if anyone thought I was criticising them personally.
> 
> As I said I'm not criticising those who want to put up bunting, waving flags or whatever. I feel like doing that with the EU flag to show my solidarity with them actually!


Atelier are already on the rough designs..
https://www.creativereview.co.uk/cr...t-would-a-uk-flag-look-like-without-scotland/


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="kimthecat, post: 1064579906, , if it reminds you of the NF that your problem . QUOTE]

If you can't accept my apology, that's your problem.

I personally found some of the slogan on flags offensive. I'm not necessarily including those I've seen on the forum but elsewhere.

Some low life are fueled by these statements to justify their motives. I certainly wasn't implying anyone here was, besides I respect the active leave campaigners posting their loathing and disgust at the discrimination suffered by some foreign people which has been on the increase since the leave victory.

. As I mentioned before I apologise for any unintentional offence caused.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Atelier are already on the rough designs..
> https://www.creativereview.co.uk/cr-blog/2014/august/what-would-a-uk-flag-look-like-without-scotland/


Already on them? That was posted before the Scottish independence referendum.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> Already on them? That was posted before the Scottish independence referendum.


The original work if you read the link was credited to Atelier. Also in this article.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> However, the University can confirm that undergraduate EU students who are already studying at Cambridge, who have an offer to study at Cambridge, or who apply in 2016 to start their studies in 2017, will continue to be charged the UK fee rate applicable at the time, provided this continues to be permitted by UK law. Please note that the UK fee rate may be subject to increases, which may be annual.


This quite amused me. Does he realise by saying this that he is confirming absolutely nothing?


----------



## MollySmith

"My father-in-law died at the Polish club that was reportedly targeted this weekend by Brexit-inspired racists creeping around in the night to daub "Go home" graffiti on its glass doors.

Zygmunt Nowicki, a second world war hero, shot down by the Germans, survivor of a terrifying air crash in an Italian vineyard after his crew's B-24 Liberator had completed a mercy drop of supplies on blockaded Warsaw.

Zygmunt Nowicki, who fought for freedom and then lived a long and purposeful life as a proud Londoner after escaping across war-torn continental Europe to survive and thrive, marry, and have three English children.

I don't know if I ever met a more contented man - richly continental in his habits (my own mother still speaks of the time he kissed her hand when they first met) - deeply English when it came to the pleasures of a lunchtime pint and the roses that grew in his garden.

He was awarded the Cross of Virtuti Militari - the Polish equivalent of the Victoria Cross - shortly after that mission in August 1944, which almost took his life before it had even really started. It is framed on the wall of the apartment in New York which I share with his youngest daughter, who I have been married to for 21 years. She still proudly retains her Polish surname, Nowicka, the feminised version of her father's Nowicki. It is from New York that two Brits living abroad (immigrants, you should call us) look back at a country revealing its worst instincts to the world, and shudder.

This weekend brought the return of racists standing in the centre of my hometown of Newcastle with banners bearing a message so sour and pitiful I won't repeat it. Now we hear of an attack on a place which should be venerated. It was built by people who were here before those miserable vandals were born. Its members did more to preserve all that Britons should hold dear - freedom from fascism, for instance - than feckless, poisonous graffiti-mongers ever will.

Let me assume that some people voted leave because they had well-considered, honestly held arguments. Let me hope that they join in this moment to take a stand and speak out against small-minded and divisive people who fear the future and want to turn away from engaging with the world.

A couple of years ago, my wife and I found an interview that her father had given to an author for a series of Polish air force memoirs. Between the hours of 7.15pm on 27 August 1944 and 5.20am the next day when he stumbled from the wreckage of his plane, he lived more, shared more and cared more, than many people alive today.

Zygmunt Nowicki: two words that would be worth spraying on somebody's building."

Source: Guardian


----------



## westie~ma

rottiepointerhouse said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36642662
> 
> Previous governor of the Bank of England Mervyn King talking a lot of sense.
> 
> I thought Cameron did a good job of reassuring people and explaining the processes being put in place
> 
> "David Cameron insists that the UK is "ready to confront what the future holds from a position of strength". Echoing what George Osborne said this morning, he says that while the markets may not have expected a Leave result, there are "robust contingency plans in place".
> 
> He also confirms the creation of a new Brexit unit in Whitehall comprised of officials and policy expertise across government to work on delivering the outcome of the referendum. It will report to the whole cabinet, he adds.
> 
> The PM says the devolved administrations will be fully involved in the negotiations
> 
> All key decisions will have to await for arrival of new prime minister but "a lot of work" can begin now, he says".
> 
> This from Labour MP Kate Hoey
> 
> "Labour MP Kate Hoey, who campaigned for a Leave vote, argues there has been some "hysteria" about what will happen to the country.
> 
> She also says that some MPs have implied that "decent people all over this country" who voted Leave "are somehow closet racists".
> 
> David Cameron pays tribute to her for breaking with her party's position of supporting Remain, saying: "I know it takes a lot of courage to stand out in the way that she has."
> 
> He adds that there are values of tolerance in people on both sides of the debate".


I saw Mervyn King's interview earlier, when GO first surfaced with his "panic budget" he lost what little credibility I had for him. Going MIA for so long just added to my opinion of him and now his lack lustre review of our economy, oh please give me strength!

If anyone who vote Leave thought that this was going to be in anyway easy they were deluding themselves. @MollySmith real life here too Tata Steel say potential bidders are dragging their feet.

Obviously things are uncertain, but markets and business have gone through uncertainty before whats added to it is the political uncertainty surrounding Tories and Labour.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> The original work if you read the link was credited to Atelier. Also in this article.


I know, I read it. I have no idea who Atelier are (I'm guessing you do by other things you've posted) but they did this in 2014.


----------



## emmaviolet

havoc said:


> To be fair they never were promises. They were always 'we could do this', 'we could do that'. Individuals decided what was important to them and assumed this money we pay to the EU would go wherever they most wanted.


Some things they said came with a 'will'. Or in one case 'let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> This quite amused me. Does he realise by saying this that he is confirming absolutely nothing?


He is reassuring students who have been worried about funding, education and prospects. I'd say as a VC that's probably his job in a time of turmoil, when most students are attempting to concentrate on submissions.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> I know, I read it. I have no idea who Atelier are (I'm guessing you do by other things you've posted) but they did this in 2014.


Yes I do and they would have because that's when the vote for independence was held. Scotland are of course holding another.

What's your next point .....?


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> Some things they said came with a 'will'. Or in one case 'let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week.


Who said that and when?


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> He is reassuring students who have been worried about funding, education and prospects. I'd say as a VC that's probably his job in a time of turmoil, when most students are attempting to concentrate on submissions.


I know what he's trying to do, but includes the fact the law could be changed and the prices could increase, so not really confirming anything.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Yes I do and they would have because that's when the vote for independence was held. Scotland are of course holding another.
> 
> What's your next point .....?


You answered the initial query with the fact that someone has already come up with designs as if it was a response to this referendum. So I wasn't sure you'd picked up the time frame.


----------



## rona

Our politicians aren't particularly trying to stabilize the country are they?

Lost the gravy train, maybe it won't be such a draw for those expecting money for nothing in the future and we might get more like Jeremy who do it with principles


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> I know what he's trying to do, but includes the fact the law could be changed and the prices could increase, so not really confirming anything.


Maybe you'd like to take it up with him? I'm sure he'd be very interested to hear from you. It's pretty much anyone can say until somebody in the Government start to make some factual decisions.

To be clear, I'm reposting the statements, they aren't my messages  in case they are of interest. I said in a post on Sunday morning why I voted remain and the university was one reason (I have many others), and the amazing research and education that goes on here. You can go back and find that post, I'm not going to post it all again but in summary, if we had all shared the actual grass roots issues that drove us to vote as we did maybe we'd all have been less divided in our votes.

I am sure that many would have no had any idea how leave would affect science, research, medicine and the arts in the country. I did, hence my vote but I work and live in close proximity to these two areas.



MilleD said:


> You answered the initial query with the fact that someone has already come up with designs as if it was a response to this referendum. So I wasn't sure you'd picked up the time frame.


Yes, I did pick the time frame correctly in the context in which I wanted to post.


----------



## havoc

_Lost the gravy train, maybe it won't be such a draw for those expecting money for nothing in the future and we might get more like Jeremy who do it with principles_
Do you mean Jeremy Corbyn? Seriously? I have no personal dislike of the man but principles don't work in politics. If the last few days have taught us anything they've taught us that.


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> _Lost the gravy train, maybe it won't be such a draw for those expecting money for nothing in the future and we might get more like Jeremy who do it with principles_
> Do you mean Jeremy Corbyn? Seriously? I have no personal dislike of the man but principles don't work in politics. If the last few days have taught us anything they've taught us that.


Yes. He seems to have more than any other politician that's spoken over the last few days. Even those trying to oust him say he's a decent man. Just because he seems weak, doesn't mean he isn't a man of principles.


----------



## havoc

I agree he is a man of principles and if you go back far enough in this thread you'll find that he and I share concerns on human rights. He's not a man who can unite a divided party while the less 'principled' work to improve their own positions though.


----------



## MollySmith

Oh this is promising... not (what was Boris saying about having time? I wonder if he was one of those people googling what is the EU after the vote?)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36644211?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

The European Union will not hold informal talks with the UK until it triggers Article 50 to leave, Germany, France and Italy have insisted.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel hosted talks with French President Francois Hollande and Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi in Berlin.

The leaders called for a "new impulse" in strengthening the EU.


----------



## havoc

There are 27 countries still in the EU (28 as we're still technically in), all full of individuals who vote in (or out) the politicians whose names we know. Just as our politicians need to listen to us if they want to keep their jobs, theirs have an electorate and it is on those voters the politicians depend for their positions. Those electorates are made up of the well and ill informed, the tolerant and the bigoted, the passionate and the not so bothered - just like us. The idea that EU leaders should see it our way is ridiculous. They will negotiate our exit from a position of what is best for their own just as we expect ours to push for what's best for us and we should expect nothing different.


----------



## Satori

havoc said:


> They will negotiate our exit from a position of what is best for their own


... or what is best for themselves.


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> I agree he is a man of principles and if you go back far enough in this thread you'll find that he and I share concerns on human rights. He's not a man who can unite a divided party while the less 'principled' work to improve their own positions though.


No, I'll agree with that.


----------



## havoc

_They will negotiate our exit from a position of what is best for their own
... or what is best for themselves._
Someone who can make the electorate believe they're one and the same is a successful politician


----------



## Little-moomin

I am so saddened by this referendum. Since the vote came through, I've had my mum in tears, worried and frightened. I've had friends on Facebook angry and even saying they want to unfriend Leave voters (which I think is a huge OTT reaction). It's horrid.


----------



## havoc

_ I've had friends on Facebook angry and even saying they want to unfriend Leave voters (which I think is a huge OTT reaction)_
Really? Stay off Facebook then.


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> If you can't accept my apology, that's your problem.


I didn't put up any banners so why would I need to accept an apology from you ?



> I personally found some of the slogan on flags offensive. I'm not necessarily including those I've seen on the forum but elsewhere.


You said this -



> Pity some people didn't think of that before posting "patriotic" banners seen earlier in the thread, the press and elsewhere.


Perhaps have a think before you post so you don't contradict yourself.Rushed post can become muddled and in heated debates its best to be clear what you mean .



> I wish everyone good luck for the future.
> 
> I'm resigning from this thread , and the forum.
> 
> Goodbye.


Good luck to you too.


----------



## Little-moomin

havoc said:


> _ I've had friends on Facebook angry and even saying they want to unfriend Leave voters (which I think is a huge OTT reaction)_
> Really? Stay off Facebook then.


Why should I? I'm just saying seeing the fall out is saddening.


----------



## Colliebarmy

havoc said:


> _ I've had friends on Facebook angry and even saying they want to unfriend Leave voters (which I think is a huge OTT reaction)_
> Really? Stay off Facebook then.


unfriend them first


----------



## Little-moomin

Colliebarmy said:


> unfriend them first


I'm just not going to respond to it. I voted Remain however I respect everyone has an opinion and that's democracy.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Little-moomin said:


> I'm just not going to respond to it. I voted Remain however I respect everyone has an opinion and that's democracy.


You have the right to vote because this is a democratic society

Germany didnt want that option for us not long ago


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Oh this is promising... not (what was Boris saying about having time? I wonder if he was one of those people googling what is the EU after the vote?)


 You're wicked !


----------



## Lurcherlad

Zaros said:


> That's incorrect.
> 
> Get yourself a ticket for the BBC proms and you can wave the union jack all night long if it makes you happy.


Is that the only place it's acceptable now?


----------



## Satori

emmaviolet said:


> Boris has admitted we need the free market, so borders will be open and we will still have to send them money, without getting as much back in terms of funding to the likes of Wales, Yorkshire, Cornwall.


If that is actually true, I suppose you can provide a source?


----------



## kimthecat

Little-moomin said:


> . I've had friends on Facebook angry and even saying they want to unfriend Leave voters .


 maybe their Leave friends want to unfriend them !


----------



## Colliebarmy

Look at the FTSE....its been a lot worse than today!


----------



## KittenKong

Little-moomin said:


> Why should I? I'm just saying seeing the fall out is saddening.


Looks like everyone is falling out in the forum too.

I'm backing out of it as I said, so please no petty comments like good riddance and get on with it.

I tried to be pleasant myself and just got sarcasm and no acceptance of an apology if my comments were taken the wrong way.

It takes a strong person to apologise and a stronger one for accepting one.

Looks like this is the way the country is going.

It's very sad.


----------



## rona

Colliebarmy said:


> Look at the FTSE....its been a lot worse than today!


Look at the 250


----------



## Little-moomin

KittenKong said:


> Looks like everyone is falling out in the forum too.
> 
> I'm backing out of it as I said, so please no petty comments like good riddance and get on with it.
> 
> I tried to be pleasant myself and just got sarcasm and no acceptance of an apology if my comments were taken the wrong way.
> 
> It takes a strong person to apologise and a stronger one for accepting one.
> 
> Looks like this is the way the country is going.
> 
> It's very sad.


Sorry if I came across rude - wasn't my intention! 

I think Jamie Oliver summed up everything well..

*A thought for Great Britain..... For the last two years, I have been filming all over the world in places where people live the longest, healthiest, happiest and most productive lives studying there food and culture. And now I finish my journey on the beautiful island of Sardinia, where at the end of the day's filming, as the sun set - I looked back and saw the European flag. For me.. symbolic and very sad. But in life you don't always get what you want. So guys, whether you voted In or Out, we are where we are. But at some point soon we all need to come back together and make the best of what will be a very bumpy 5 years. This referendum has fractured Europe, divided families and split the country. The divorce of our European marriage will be very costly and provoke a bitterness towards us as a trusted country in the world...However I do believe in democracy and Britain has spoken. In my own way I will now roll up my sleeves and work harder than ever to make this work. But I BEG YOU ONE THING GREAT BRITAIN ???? Give me Boris Fu*£$ing Johnson as our Prime Minister and I'm done. I'm out. My faith in us will be broken forever. So speak up people - let's stop being spectators! We can not let this happen- share the shit out of this !! #BuggerOffBoris 
Trust and building relationships with other country's is the only currency that really works. (Tune -- #TemperTrap)*


----------



## kimthecat

@Colliebarmy Its a bear market due to uncertainty . The shares go up and down all the time



KittenKong said:


> Looks like everyone is falling out in the forum too.
> 
> I'm backing out of it as I said, so please no petty comments like good riddance and get on with it.
> 
> I tried to be pleasant myself and just got sarcasm and no acceptance of an apology if my comments were taken the wrong way.
> 
> It takes a strong person to apologise and a stronger one for accepting one.
> 
> Looks like this is the way the country is going.
> 
> It's very sad.


You said Goodbye (again) a few posts ago and you are back already . No one has ever said Good riddance to you . You write confusing posts .


----------



## Colliebarmy

rona said:


> Look at the 250


----------



## Colliebarmy

share prices are for investors, its a gamble, just like the bookies, it means little to the actual firm involved, and brokers make money on markets that fall and rise, its what they do


----------



## MollySmith

@Little-moomin, it's not very pleasant is it? I've found that a friend is a UKIP supporter and it's tainted my view - his backstory about children is similar to mine and he's been a supporter of a writing forum I belong to. I thought I had surrounded myself with friends who were largely the same views in as much as you can be. There are a few leaves and my cousin who I mentioned last night has been all flouncy and silly because her lawyer chums voted differently to her.

It's natural to question it and feelings will be running high. This has a huge effect on our lives and I guess either get stuck in or keep well out and hide a view if it upsets you. As you can guess I just defriend and err.... get gobby!



KittenKong said:


> Looks like everyone is falling out in the forum too.
> 
> I'm backing out of it as I said, so please no petty comments like good riddance and get on with it.
> 
> I tried to be pleasant myself and just got sarcasm and no acceptance of an apology if my comments were taken the wrong way.
> 
> It takes a strong person to apologise and a stronger one for accepting one.
> 
> Looks like this is the way the country is going.
> 
> It's very sad.


I was thinking we've done remarkably well to get to day 4 without a locked thread  Feelings are running high and I think in posting we have to be a little more mindful that online it's easy to get the wrong interpretation of a post as is the way with written not spoken, all of the EU ones are running very fast too.


----------



## KittenKong

Very last word as I've PM'd to deactivate my PF account.
Little -Moomin, wasn't you I was referring too.

I asked for no petty comments like good riddance if anyone was tempted to post one. 

As I said before goodbye and good luck.


----------



## Little-moomin

MollySmith said:


> @Little-moomin, it's not very pleasant is it? I've found that a friend is a UKIP supporter and it's tainted my view - his backstory about children is similar to mine and he's been a supporter of a writing forum I belong to. I thought I had surrounded myself with friends who were largely the same views in as much as you can be. There are a few leaves and my cousin who I mentioned last night has been all flouncy and silly because her lawyer chums voted differently to her.
> 
> It's natural to question it and feelings will be running high. This has a huge effect on our lives and I guess either get stuck in or keep well out and hide a view if it upsets you. As you can guess I just defriend and err.... get gobby!
> 
> I was thinking we've done remarkably well to get to day 4 without a locked thread  Feelings are running high and I think in posting we have to be a little more mindful that online it's easy to get the wrong interpretation of a post as is the way with written not spoken, all of the EU ones are running very fast too.


Off course, I agree. Luckily for me most people I know share the same opinion but there are the odd few that do. I respect everyone's opinions. What frustrates me is those who voted Leave and then regretted it as I think surely you voted having taken the time to consider your vote. (And vice versa with remain voters). But everyone makes mistakes.

I think ultimately we need to come together, work hard and make our country a better one.


----------



## Little-moomin

KittenKong said:


> Very last word as I've PM'd to deactivate my PF account.
> Little -Moomin, wasn't you I was referring too.
> 
> I asked for no petty comments like good riddance if anyone was tempted to post one.
> 
> As I said before goodbye and good luck.


This makes me sad


----------



## rona

Colliebarmy said:


>


You have to do a proper representation or you are as bad as the politicians 

If you've done one over 1 year then the other should be too 

I know what you mean though. Panic for panics sake. It's happening everywhere. The only people not trying to panic everyone are the last and present Governors of the Bank of England


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

One shouldn't fall out about politics on a pet forum. Just stop talking politics and concentrate on pets!


----------



## havoc

_You have the right to vote because this is a democratic society

Germany didnt want that option for us not long ago_

It was a very long time ago and not relevant to today's world. There are many countries around the world prepared to look forward even though we have behaved abominably towards them in the past. You are entitled to base your view of current world events on a history of 'two world wars and one world cup' but it is abhorrent to attempt to poison the minds of a current generation.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Very last word as I've PM'd to deactivate my PF account.
> Little -Moomin, wasn't you I was referring too.
> 
> I asked for no petty comments like good riddance if anyone was tempted to post one.
> 
> As I said before goodbye and good luck.


You can just not login. You don't need to deactivate your account..

Though I will add it's a shame to lose different opinions regardless of if that person is wrong or right.


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> It was a very long time ago and not relevant to today's world.


 History is always relevant. We should learn from it.

Plus ca change , plus c'est la meme chose.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Very last word as I've PM'd to deactivate my PF account.
> Little -Moomin, wasn't you I was referring too.
> 
> I asked for no petty comments like good riddance if anyone was tempted to post one.
> 
> As I said before goodbye and good luck.


Oh no, please don't go. I don't know whats happened but whatever if it is it will blow over. Please don't do anything hastly & delete your account @KittenKong


----------



## kimthecat

yay ! Good news . The UK has a friend !

i guess we get more butter and lamb and they get more .. ..um I don't know !

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367
New Zealand First is pushing for Closer Commonwealth Economic Relations (CCER) between New Zealand and the United Kingdom.

Party leader Winston Peters said a trade deal with the UK is an absolute priority.

"In the wake of the 'Brexit Vote', New Zealand must be the first country in the queue for a trade deal with a liberated United Kingdom," he said.

"We already have the model of Closer Economic Relations (CER) with Australia... adding the UK would begin to transform this into Closer Commonwealth Economic Relations."

Peters said CCER is the means to bring in other Commonwealth states.


----------



## MollySmith

Little-moomin said:


> Off course, I agree. Luckily for me most people I know share the same opinion but there are the odd few that do. I respect everyone's opinions. What frustrates me is those who voted Leave and then regretted it as I think surely you voted having taken the time to consider your vote. (And vice versa with remain voters). But everyone makes mistakes.
> 
> I think ultimately we need to come together, work hard and make our country a better one.


I agree though I think it'll take time - I'm still cross and mostly cross for those who were foolled or maybe, like you, frustrated by them. Hard to tell.. I'm a storm of crossness at the moment 

Mind you, I also think of those who have been threatened with racial abuse and must be feeling so isolated too. I understand that calls to the police reporting abuse have increased by 57% in this area and whilst those reports are low, it's 57% too many. It's disappointing.


----------



## CuddleMonster

@KittenKong Please don't leave, or if it's too late to stop the leave process, think about rejoining. If you're finding the heat of this debate too much, you can always drop out of the referendum threads or just not log on to PF for a few days until it's all calmed down.

I understood what you were trying to say - I love a bit of flag waving & always put up the bunting for a party, but I've been saddened to see the flag used as a background for some very unpleasant slogans during the campaign.

This is a very sensitive issue - a lot of people on both sides have made some really nasty comments, so everyone is very twitchy and looking for insults where none are intended. It will calm down soon, so please don't leave.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Desperately resisting the urge to make a 'Leave' or 'Remain' forum joke here.... :Bag


----------



## Jonescat

MollySmith said:


> I'm a storm of crossness at the moment


Same here....


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> Look at the 250


Started averaging into it today using ishares MIDD ETF.


----------



## MollySmith

Jonescat said:


> Same here....


I'm currently taking it out on the football. I am assuming the England 'football' team have also googled 'What is the EU' and applied the leave vote to them.

Kane is awful - not worthy of Shearer's no 9 shirt.


----------



## Jonescat

MollySmith said:


> I'm currently taking it out on the football. I am assuming the England 'football' team have also googled 'What is the EU' and applied the leave vote to them.


Plenty to take it out on there! I gather we did quite well at Rugby over the weekend....


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Looks like everyone is falling out in the forum too.
> 
> I'm backing out of it as I said, so please no petty comments like good riddance and get on with it.
> 
> I tried to be pleasant myself and just got sarcasm and no acceptance of an apology if my comments were taken the wrong way.
> 
> It takes a strong person to apologise and a stronger one for accepting one.
> 
> Looks like this is the way the country is going.
> 
> It's very sad.


I don't know if you remember but I mentioned to you a few pages back that this thread really hasn't got as heated and nasty as some. General chat can be quite a sparky/spiky part of the forum and so some people avoid it and stick to dog or cat (or whatever pet they have) chat. Try not to take things personally. Over time you will find those of us locking horns on this thread are in complete agreement and supporting each other on other threads. I have totally opposite political views to some people on here but I still respect and admire them  Feelings are running high at the moment but everything will settle down again so just take a break or avoid General Chat for a while.


----------



## CanIgoHome

Commonwealth Economic/trade thats what we are on pet forums 
we trade information 
ideas 
find out what life is like for different members in different parts of the world 
and much more

but the best bit it free and we get most important things from it *friendship *


----------



## emmaviolet

MollySmith said:


> I'm currently taking it out on the football. I am assuming the England 'football' team have also googled 'What is the EU' and applied the leave vote to them.
> 
> Kane is awful - not worthy of Shearer's no 9 shirt.


I'm the same, but I don't 'do' football, so missed that, but I had a moan at Roger Federer earlier!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

I really do believe this has been a big con and that they have no intention of taking us out of the EU. I think they will delay invoking article 50 so that the general election can be held first and the parties will find a way to include holding another referendum or some loophole. Possibly they will negotiate some better deals with the EU to put to a referendum. Not sure but I don't think they are being honest with us.


----------



## kimthecat

Merkel et al wont give us better deals , they want to make an example of us so the other countries wont be encouraged to leave . 
The EU want us to invoke article 50 as soon as possible because they want to stablise the EU but the UK and The US agreed that it will take a few months to sort out what is best for the long term . if we make any mistakes now , it cant be undone.


----------



## Zaros

Lurcherlad said:


> Is that the only place it's acceptable now?


No.

Buckingham Palace has a tendency to fly the flag despite their ancestry.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Zaros said:


> No.
> 
> Buckingham Palace has a tendency to fly the flag despite their ancestry.


Indeed! 

We're all mongrels :Smuggrin

Where will it end? :Yawn


----------



## havoc

_Merkel et al wont give us better deals , they want to make an example of us so the other countries wont be encouraged to leave . 
The EU want us to invoke article 50 as soon as possible because they want to stablise the EU but the UK and The US agreed that it will take a few months to sort out what is best for the long term . if we make any mistakes now , it cant be undone._
If we wait we run the risk of being in a worse position to negotiate. Of course it could be better but it is a risk.


----------



## kimthecat

@havoc Its difficult , I can see both points of view.


----------



## Honeys mum

Pound And Stocks See Gains After Brexit Slump - Yahoo Finance UK


----------



## Satori

*George Soros says Brexit has made the disintegration of the EU practically irreversible*

*http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/george-soros-says-brexit-has-made-the-disintegration-of-the-eu-practically-irreversible-a7105321.html*


----------



## KittenKong

Sorry to log in again, I know what I said before but cannot ignore the many kind words of support I've received from many of you.

I decided I did act hastily in deciding to quit the forum with so many emotions running high at the moment. I've been overwhelmed by all and the support I've received.

I have therefore decided to remain if no one minds.

Please, not another Leave/Remain poll!

Thank you so much again.


----------



## jaycee05

France is wanting a referendum now, according to a french friend of a friend of mine, so that is another besides Holland, Italy, Denmark ,and Sweden


----------



## emmaviolet

jaycee05 said:


> France is wanting a referendum now, according to a french friend of a friend of mine, so that is another besides Holland, Italy, Denmark ,and Sweden


Well they won't have one any time soon and by the time it could happen we'll be in such a sorry state it will soon change their minds.


----------



## havoc

It's true they will have the luxury of seeing how we fare in the short term.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

There seems a change in the language being used, I am absolutely sure there will be a move towards negotiating a Norway type deal. I see now why Cameron decided not to invoke article 50 until after the change of Tory leadership/possible general election - that allows wriggle room for the future leader and leaders of other parties to campaign on either a new deal or on holding a 2nd referendum. I think the language of the EU ministers has softened too. And (sorry got to get all my theories out in one go) I think the reason George Osborne isn't standing for Tory leader is so that he can continue being the voice of the remain camp and issuing warnings. I think they've all been down the bunker for a few days planning how not to implement the referendum results.


----------



## havoc

_ I am absolutely sure there will be a move towards negotiating a Norway type deal_
If true then it's being studiously ignored in interviews. I just caught a bit of an interview on radio 4 in the car and an extremely patronising female MP was explaining how much we wouldn't be paying once we leave - the 'real' figures after we take away what we get back. She then said it's that £10 billion which 'can' be spent on the NHS. Do they really think they will get a Norway type deal for free? I'm sure they know full well it isn't possible but they don't want to admit we'll still be paying.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I really do believe this has been a big con and that they have no intention of taking us out of the EU. I think they will delay invoking article 50 so that the general election can be held first and the parties will find a way to include holding another referendum or some loophole. Possibly they will negotiate some better deals with the EU to put to a referendum. Not sure but I don't think they are being honest with us.


I think the same.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Lurcherlad said:


> We're all mongrels :Smuggrin


That doesn't sound very nice; surely we can think up some cutesy crossbreed name?


----------



## Calvine

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not sure but I don't think they are being honest with us


@rottiepointerhouse : they seldom are honest, so no surprises there, eh?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

havoc said:


> _ I am absolutely sure there will be a move towards negotiating a Norway type deal_
> If true then it's being studiously ignored in interviews. I just caught a bit of an interview on radio 4 in the car and an extremely patronising female MP was explaining how much we wouldn't be paying once we leave - the 'real' figures after we take away what we get back. She then said it's that £10 billion which 'can' be spent on the NHS. Do they really think they will get a Norway type deal for free? I'm sure they know full well it isn't possible but they don't want to admit we'll still be paying.


Jeremy Hunt was on BBC Breakfast News this morning, "considering his position" regards standing for Tory leadership. He mentioned a Norway type deal several times but with some extra protection for the UK over free movement of people.


----------



## havoc

Wales voted out and now insists the lost EU money is replaced from Westminster - as will all those other areas like Cornwall. Presumably farmers will still want their subsidies covered at least for the foreseeable future. There will be a cost to a Norway style deal. How does that leave the full £10 billion for the NHS? You just watch though as the politicians try to persuade us they negotiated a great deal and we only have to pay half as much to carry on trading leaving us exactly where we were but without the subsidies and other EU funding.


----------



## kimthecat

markets calming down . 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36648630
In late morning trading, the index was up 2.4% at 6,128.32, while the FTSE 250 had gained 2.9%.

The FTSE 100 lost 5.6% in the previous two trading sessions, while the more UK-focused FTSE 250 had slumped 13.7%.

The pound also showed signs of recovery, rising 0.8% against the dollar to $1.3328.

The pound had risen as high as $1.50 shortly before the result of the vote became clear on Friday morning.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> markets calming down .
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36648630
> In late morning trading, the index was up 2.4% at 6,128.32, while the FTSE 250 had gained 2.9%.
> 
> The FTSE 100 lost 5.6% in the previous two trading sessions, while the more UK-focused FTSE 250 had slumped 13.7%.
> 
> The pound also showed signs of recovery, rising 0.8% against the dollar to $1.3328.
> 
> The pound had risen as high as $1.50 shortly before the result of the vote became clear on Friday morning.


But still not good news from Richard Branson on investment from China or from my contact at the World Trade forum. Chinese companies still deep freezing investments in the UK and non too impressed by Farage appearing first.


----------



## emmaviolet

Anyone who hasn't seen it should watch Nigel Farage's address to the EU, well it's gold dust. The MEP's are laughing their heads off at him, also when one of them calls him out for being for the little man of Britain but Nigel has an offshore financial construction. 

Ironic he doesn't like the unelected telling the UK what to do, yet somehow he is in charge of this exit!


----------



## kimthecat

@MollySmith .Its early days .

Farage's speech


----------



## MollySmith

rottiepointerhouse said:


> There seems a change in the language being used, I am absolutely sure there will be a move towards negotiating a Norway type deal. I see now why Cameron decided not to invoke article 50 until after the change of Tory leadership/possible general election - that allows wriggle room for the future leader and leaders of other parties to campaign on either a new deal or on holding a 2nd referendum. I think the language of the EU ministers has softened too. And (sorry got to get all my theories out in one go) I think the reason George Osborne isn't standing for Tory leader is so that he can continue being the voice of the remain camp and issuing warnings.  I think they've all been down the bunker for a few days planning how not to implement the referendum results.


That seemed to come across in the speech from Cameron too. My brain had fried by the time Newsnight was on and I wasn't taking much in (what with the football, loosing a bid on eBay and then the Great British Sewing Bee).


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

emmaviolet said:


> Anyone who hasn't seen it should watch Nigel Farage's address to the EU, well it's gold dust. The MEP's are laughing their heads off at him, also when one of them calls him out for being for the little man of Britain but Nigel has an offshore financial construction.
> 
> Ironic he doesn't like the unelected telling the UK what to do, yet somehow he is in charge of this exit!


Who says he is in charge of this exit?


----------



## MollySmith

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Who says he is in charge of this exit?


It's entirely self appointed, like his assumed role as Chancellor in his assertion about the NHS money


----------



## emmaviolet

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Who says he is in charge of this exit?


Well he seems to.


----------



## MollySmith

"After sarcastically thanking his fellow MEPs "for the warm welcome", Farage said: "When I came here 17 years ago and said I wanted to lead a campaign to get Britain to leave the European Union you all laughed at me. Well I have to say, you're not laughing now are you?"

Oh this monster is well and truly unleashed.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Mainly that all members do not have a vote on who runs it.
> To be democratic all members should have a say on all the ruling individuals. That's democracy after all.
> There are about 750 MEPs only 70 odd are ours to elect, the others we have no say over. The same goes for all other countries and it's up to each individual to decide if they except that or not.
> 
> I only have to talk to my French BIL to know how different our countries can be, goodness knows how we ever agree on anything with places like Bulgaria. A lot of the decisions are actually detrimental to many countries
> 
> That's my main reason.


An interesting view, and not one I would disparage, though (you knew there would be a 'though' didn't you!) it seems much the same here, in that I get to vote for only one MP out of 650.

In fact, one of the things I like(d) about the EU was that my vote actually did count. It was added to all the others and had a very small, but real influence over which MEPs represented the UK in the Parliament.

In my UK constituency the Tory will get in, regardless of how I vote. Has done since I started voting, just after Magna Carta. My vote has no influence whatsoever, and the politicians know that, so I never even get a visit around election time. For me, the EU system is a better representation of democracy than the only one I now have.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

MollySmith said:


> It's entirely self appointed, like his assumed role as Chancellor in his assertion about the NHS money





emmaviolet said:


> Well he seems to.


Yes I get that but what power does he have? When asked if Farage would be involved in this committee Cameron mentioned yesterday to start planning for invoking article 50 he said that the UKIP MP (Douglas Carswell I think he is called) would be consulted but no mention was made of Farage being involved.


----------



## emmaviolet

MollySmith said:


> "After sarcastically thanking his fellow MEPs "for the warm welcome", Farage said: "When I came here 17 years ago and said I wanted to lead a campaign to get Britain to leave the European Union you all laughed at me. Well I have to say, you're not laughing now are you?"
> 
> Oh this monster is well and truly unleashed.


If you see the MEP number 123, it seemed he was crying laughing so hard!


----------



## MollySmith

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I get that but what power does he have? When asked if Farage would be involved in this committee Cameron mentioned yesterday to start planning for invoking article 50 he said that the UKIP MP (Douglas Carswell I think he is called) would be consulted but no mention was made of Farage being involved.


I've just had a look (now FB recommends I like a 'fan page' for UKIP... really?!). And I have no idea. Not the foggiest apart from he is under the illusion he speaks for all of us.


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> An interesting view, and not one I would disparage, though (you knew there would be a 'though' didn't you!) it seems much the same here, in that I get to vote for only one MP out of 650.
> 
> In fact, one of the things I like(d) about the EU was that my vote actually did count. It was added to all the others and had a very small, but real influence over which MEPs represented the UK in the Parliament.
> 
> In my UK constituency the Tory will get in, regardless of how I vote. Has done since I started voting, just after Magna Carta. My vote has no influence whatsoever, and the politicians know that, so I never even get a visit around election time. For me, the EU system is a better representation of democracy than the only one I now have.


My vote here means nothing. I have one of the safest seats ever, we have only had two MP's in out history, Norman Tebbit and now IDS, lord help us!


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> My vote here means nothing. I have one of the safest seats ever, we have only had two MP's in out history, Norman Tebbit and now IDS, lord help us!


 I can beat that . Ours is one of the safest seats and I give you three guesses who our Tory MP is . We need more help from the Lord than you !


----------



## MollySmith

I think PF has helped me to wind down a notch or too from this person but I can tell you that I was in this zone on Friday!
https://katyboo1.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/happy-now/


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> An interesting view, and not one I would disparage, though (you knew there would be a 'though' didn't you!) it seems much the same here, in that I get to vote for only one MP out of 650.
> 
> In fact, one of the things I like(d) about the EU was that my vote actually did count. It was added to all the others and had a very small, but real influence over which MEPs represented the UK in the Parliament.
> 
> In my UK constituency the Tory will get in, regardless of how I vote. Has done since I started voting, just after Magna Carta. My vote has no influence whatsoever, and the politicians know that, so I never even get a visit around election time. For me, the EU system is a better representation of democracy than the only one I now have.


You have still had the opportunity to vote though and if you feel strongly enough you can go and try to change minds. You can also vote for your local council.


----------



## kimthecat

Isn't Farage a French name , perhaps he has french ancestors.


----------



## Guest

MollySmith said:


> I think PF has helped me to wind down a notch or too from this person but I can tell you that I was in this zone on Friday!
> https://katyboo1.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/happy-now/


Several excellent points.

The democracy one resonates with me for sure. 
In this country many things were voted for democratically - things like segregation. I wonder if the same arguments were made then that we hear now? 
I wonder if people said things like segregation was voted for democratically so quit being a sore loser and accept that is the majority's choice?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> You have still had the opportunity to vote though and if you feel strongly enough you can go and try to change minds. You can also vote for your local council.


There's one flaw in your logic though - we're most likely going to end up with LESS democracy than we had before. No protection from corporate interests. Less rights. We were warned.


----------



## noushka05

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Jeremy Hunt was on BBC Breakfast News this morning, "considering his position" regards standing for Tory leadership. He mentioned a Norway type deal several times but with some extra protection for the UK over free movement of people.


After the rebate our EU membership worked out at £89 per person per year. Norway pays £134 per person per year to stay in the single market. If we join the single market like Norway , we will have to pay more, we'll have less say & we will have the same freedom of movement as we have now. So what was the point throwing away a far, far better deal? I do not get it.

I suspect Brussels are going to come down on us like a ton of bricks as an example to other member states. And tbh I don't blame them. The far right in other countries have been emboldened by this result & are demanding their own referendums. The EU cannot allow this extremism to spread. I think they will make us an example so ordinary people see what they stand to lose by leaving. Time will tell.


----------



## havoc

_I suspect Brussels are going to come down on us like a ton of bricks as an example to other member states_
That makes it sound like spite and I don't think that will be the reason at all. They all have their own electorates to please. Our politicians will (hopefully) be looking to do the best by us and we shouldn't expect others to be any different in looking to get the best for their own.


----------



## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> After the rebate our EU membership worked out at £89 per person per year. Norway pays £134 per person per year to stay in the single market. If we join the single market like Norway , we will have to pay more, we'll have less say & we will have the same freedom of movement as we have now. *So what was the point throwing away a far, far better deal? I do not get it.*


I think it was all so we could just say we was 'free of the EU laws', although I've yet to see one person say how it impacted their day to day life in any way that you would curse it. But boy they helped a lot of places that didn't realise it.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

MollySmith said:


> I think PF has helped me to wind down a notch or too from this person but I can tell you that I was in this zone on Friday!
> https://katyboo1.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/happy-now/


Excellent article. The continued use of adverbs instead of numbers (it's first, second, third etc - not firstly, secondly, thirdly grrr) jarred badly by the end but otherwise she wrote eloquently and I agree with most of what she has said.


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> My vote here means nothing. I have one of the safest seats ever, we have only had two MP's in out history, Norman Tebbit and now IDS, lord help us!


You have my sympathy vote, if that's any consolation!


----------



## MollySmith

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Excellent article. The continued use of adverbs instead of numbers (it's first, second, third etc - not firstly, secondly, thirdly grrr) jarred badly by the end but otherwise she wrote eloquently and I agree with most of what she has said.


Yes, Eighthly was very annoying!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> There's one flaw in your logic though - we're most likely going to end up with LESS democracy than we had before. No protection from corporate interests. Less rights. We were warned.


And if Scotland goes, a perpetual Tory government!


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> And if Scotland goes, a perpetual Tory government!


Don't you just love it when a plan comes together.


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> You have my sympathy vote, if that's any consolation!


Aw that's worth something.

I don't know what's worse, that IDS is my MP, or I live in a town that think he is a wonderful prospect for us.


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> I can beat that . Ours is one of the safest seats and I give you three guesses who our Tory MP is . We need more help from the Lord than you !


Hmmm, who is it? Is it Boris?

Or Gove or David or Hunt?


----------



## CuddleMonster

kimthecat said:


> Isn't Farage a French name , perhaps he has french ancestors.


Maybe someone should research his family tree - I'd love to be the one who told him that HE was actually one of those terrible mainland EU-ers that he is so worried about


----------



## CuddleMonster

I was at an English class for refugees this morning. During our free conversation period, I was asked by one young lady:
"When people were campaigning to leave the EU, why did they not already have a plan in place for leaving?"
and
"Why are so many politicians resigning at a time when stable government is so important?"

Comes to something when a teenage refugee who's only been here 3 months has more understanding of the UK situation than most of our MPs...


----------



## havoc

His wife is German so he can't hate all Europeans. After seeing his ill mannered performance today I do wonder if the man is ever sober.


----------



## CuddleMonster

I think some people have a kind of dividing line between the 'foreigners' they know and all the rest. A few years ago I remember a woman telling my Nigerian friend (who was a nurse) at great length how terrible it was that 'they let all these black people work in hospitals'. She was always singing my friend's praises, so it obviously wasn't designed to get at her - she just viewed people she knew as being in a different category to everyone else.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> You have still had the opportunity to vote though and if you feel strongly enough you can go and try to change minds. You can also vote for your local council.


As I have had in the Euro elections, only not as effectively. But I think we've made our points.


----------



## noushka05

havoc said:


> _I suspect Brussels are going to come down on us like a ton of bricks as an example to other member states_
> That makes it sound like spite and I don't think that will be the reason at all. They all have their own electorates to please. Our politicians will (hopefully) be looking to do the best by us and we shouldn't expect others to be any different in looking to get the best for their own.


Not out of spite, out of fear. Far right loony Geert Wilders is warning the EU not to punish us because he knows if the Dutch hold their own ref it will put ordinary people off voting out - http://news.sky.com/story/1718486/eu-warned-against-punishing-uk-for-brexit Thanks to the result of this referendum the far right is surging, not just here, but right across Europe. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...tremists-politics-terrorism?CMP=Share_iOSApp_ It is terrifying, but sadly it was predicted.



emmaviolet said:


> I think it was all so we could just say we was 'free of the EU laws', although I've yet to see one person say how it impacted their day to day life in any way that you would curse it. But boy they helped a lot of places that didn't realise it.


Seems like it. Well we've 'got our country back', only now we're at the mercy of a bunch of sociopaths who have proved time & time again they have NO mercy.



Arnie83 said:


> And if Scotland goes, a perpetual Tory government!


God help us. But I hope Scotland goes. Why should they be dragged down with us?


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> Aw that's worth something.
> 
> I don't know what's worse, that IDS is my MP, or I live in a town that think he is a wonderful prospect for us.


What is wrong with people? The man is a monster.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> Hmmm, who is it? Is it Boris?
> 
> Or Gove or David or Hunt?


Boris . 

I didn't mind him when he was mayor of London .
we've had two good MPs before him . Two local men who cared for the area , Michael Shersby who died of a heart attack and then John Randall who decided to retire before he died on the job .


----------



## havoc

I never thought I'd say this but thank goodness for the (current) leader of the Labour party. I just LOVE the way he's refusing to step down, barely even reacting while all around are all but foaming at the mouth with fury - the one bit of light relief among all the other chaos. If I were a Labour supporter I think I'd vote for him as leader again just to keep the entertainment factor going. His leadership skills may be rubbish but there's a man who can keep calm and carry on hey


----------



## kimthecat

If you can keep your head when all about you 
Are losing theirs ----


you don't know what the problem is !


----------



## cheekyscrip

Summing up: It is the biggest political disaster since American War of Independence. When Britain lost USA,Malta and if not Gibraltar holding on 3 years and seven months..bleeding Spanish and French coffers dry..England would have been invaded too.

Other countries have safe guards for those referendums that end in a draw..you need two thirds or like in Australia the sux main states must agree...
Else it is back to parlament.


Cameron: ambition to win election, Labour : chosing Ed over David and losing, then chosing Corbyn knowing he is Eurosceptic...
Generally Labour and Lib Dem treating it as in-Toru fighting...

Merkel insensitive and arbitrary decisions...

Leaders let people down

Let them follow moron who could not even get a seat in parliament.

Who definitely spout racist propaganda and lies. 

You might not be a racist yourself but if a man like him does not put you off?
If you happy to follow his lead?

Surely many kind, good natured Germans followed Hitler....


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> If you can keep your head when all about you
> Are losing theirs ----
> 
> you don't know what the problem is !


That's the polite version - slightly different one has been quoted in this house for days


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> I never thought I'd say this but thank goodness for the (current) leader of the Labour party. I just LOVE the way he's refusing to step down, barely even reacting while all around are all but foaming at the mouth with fury - the one bit of light relief among all the other chaos. If I were a Labour supporter I think I'd vote for him as leader again just to keep the entertainment factor going. His leadership skills may be rubbish but there's a man who can keep calm and carry on hey


Now he votes to Remain!!!


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> That's the polite version - slightly different one has been quoted in this house for days


 Ooh er ! So whats your version !


----------



## havoc

Can't use the language on here


----------



## Colliebarmy




----------



## Colliebarmy

Meanwhile Corbyn ignores his massive no vote.....good man, Labour party battle looms


----------



## kimthecat

@havoc 

Just been watching London news BBC , about attitude to Brexiteers . A comment from online media ." I wish I could kill the xenophobic Brexit voters (I've paraphrased that a I can't remember the exact words but he meant all Brexit people )

Is that a hate crime? I find it ironic the people who are against hate and violence think its ok for them to hate and to suggest violence.


----------



## Colliebarmy

kimthecat said:


> @havoc
> 
> Just been watching London news BBC , about attitude to Brexiteers . A comment from online media ." I wish I could kill the xenophobic Brexit voters (I've paraphrased that a I can't remember the exact words but he meant all Brexit people )
> 
> Is that a hate crime?


no just poor sportsmanship....true English play the game win or lose....


----------



## kimthecat

Massive demonstration In London "London Stays" 
I would support an Middlesex Independence referendum 

We used to be in County of Middlesex and then the Government decided to make us a Greater London Borough .
Middlesex doesnt exist any more yet it is part of our postal address because Royal mail refused to drop it .


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Massive demonstration In London "London Stays"
> I would support an Middlesex Independence referendum
> 
> We used to be in County of Middlesex and then the Government decided to make us a Greater London Borough .
> Middlesex doesnt exist any more yet it is part of our postal address because Royal mail refused to drop it .


Oh...that is simple. London can ask for independence or join Scotland to stay in EU.


----------



## shadowmare

I think I may be experiencing a dissociation episode... I keep reading about what is happening, comments on FB, all sorts of imbeciles spewing hatered in public... And today's clown act by Mr Farage just was the last thing I needed to convince me this is just a bizarre dream. This is surreal. In what world do people go out on the street and start randomly screaming into a stranger's face "Go home!". My friend was on the phone chatting to her boyfriend. She was speaking French. Some elderly lady came up to her and told her to go back to her shitty France because this is no longer her country! To which my friend then turned and went on to rant at her for next 5 minutes in a very much English accent. My friend was born and raised in England but apparently now even being able to speak more than one language makes you a target for abuse? In what world does someone like Farage is even allowed to speak in public? I love how he's back in his MEP seat, still getting paid after fighting so hard to free his country! Honestly, if this is what UK is turning into, I am just really happy that I still have over 20 countries that I can choose from. Ironically, if/when the cuts are made to various budgets and the 'simple' people end up in worse position than now... I don't think I will have much empathy. I know that not all of them have voted to leave, but you're getting what you voted for. I'm just sorry for the younger generations, because the voting was done by people who wanted a change, to build a new Great Britain or whatever... But a huge proportion of this won't even be doing any of the 'building' because they are either unemployed or retired. Meanwhile a lot of young people who didn't want any of this will be grafting for them... Or alternatively simply pack their bags and leave together with all those immigrants. As for those who like to say how there's no point in moaning now and everyone should move on and start working together, create a plan etc... Eh, no. The leave campaign wanted this chaos, they should be the ones sorting it out. After all, they wanted their country back. They got it back. Now go and show us what is it that you are planning to do with it. It would be genuinely interesting to see how UK would look like if you removed all the remain voters and all the immigrants. Return the ex-pats and set up new border control rules...


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Anyone remember 'Passport to Pimlico'?


----------



## cheekyscrip

shadowmare said:


> I think I may be experiencing a dissociation episode... I keep reading about what is happening, comments on FB, all sorts of imbeciles spewing hatered in public... And today's clown act by Mr Farage just was the last thing I needed to convince me this is just a bizarre dream. This is surreal. In what world do people go out on the street and start randomly screaming into a stranger's face "Go home!". My friend was on the phone chatting to her boyfriend. She was speaking French. Some elderly lady came up to her and told her to go back to her shitty France because this is no longer her country! To which my friend then turned and went on to rant at her for next 5 minutes in a very much English accent. My friend was born and raised in England but apparently now even being able to speak more than one language makes you a target for abuse? In what world does someone like Farage is even allowed to speak in public? I love how he's back in his MEP seat, still getting paid after fighting so hard to free his country! Honestly, if this is what UK is turning into, I am just really happy that I still have over 20 countries that I can choose from. Ironically, if/when the cuts are made to various budgets and the 'simple' people end up in worse position than now... I don't think I will have much empathy. I know that not all of them have voted to leave, but you're getting what you voted for. I'm just sorry for the younger generations, because the voting was done by people who wanted a change, to build a new Great Britain or whatever... But a huge proportion of this won't even be doing any of the 'building' because they are either unemployed or retired. Meanwhile a lot of young people who didn't want any of this will be grafting for them... Or alternatively simply pack their bags and leave together with all those immigrants. As for those who like to say how there's no point in moaning now and everyone should move on and start working together, create a plan etc... Eh, no. The leave campaign wanted this chaos, they should be the ones sorting it out. After all, they wanted their country back. They got it back. Now go and show us what is it that you are planning to do with it. It would be genuinely interesting to see how UK would look like if you removed all the remain voters and all the immigrants. Return the ex-pats and set up new border control rules...


All those flag wavers now are happy to say that Gibraltar is now on its' own, no longer defended by Britain and our economy without access to frontier and EU to keep Spain on leash..funny we would be non EU...so where can we go if no longer employed?
So much for promises from Leave campaign.


----------



## havoc

shadowmare said:


> Honestly, if this is what UK is turning into, I am just really happy that I still have over 20 countries that I can choose from. Ironically, if/when the cuts are made to various budgets and the 'simple' people end up in worse position than now... I don't think I will have much empathy.


I'm sad to say you've put into words how I feel. It isn't how I want to feel, it isn't what I want to be. I've never been an 'I'm all right Jack' sort of person until now. I can't see a single, vulnerable group who can benefit in their own lifetime but I keep being told the people have voted and it's what they wanted.


----------



## Colliebarmy

cheekyscrip said:


> All those flag wavers now are happy to say that Gibraltar is now on its' own, no longer defended by Britain and our economy without access to frontier and EU to keep Spain on leash..funny we would be non EU...so where can we go if no longer employed?
> So much for promises from Leave campaign.


Gib will be Spanish and in the EU, seems the 96% who wanted to be EU will be over the moon!


----------



## Satori

shadowmare said:


> The leave campaign wanted this chaos, they should be the ones sorting it out.


So what you are saying is that the leave campaign should form the UK government. This I hope for too. It it is up to the electorate however. That pesky democracy again.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Colliebarmy said:


> Gib will be Spanish and in the EU, seems the 96% who wanted to be EU will be over the moon!


We did not vote to be in EU. We are.

CB. You got it wrong. Referendum was not about whether you want to be in UK or EU.
Sorry. 
Then according to you half of Great Britain should be Spanish?

Gibraltar like many others wants to be British in EU.
For our survival it is vital. Not just convenient.


----------



## Colliebarmy

cheekyscrip said:


> We did not vote to be in EU. We are.
> 
> CB. You got it wrong. Referendum was not about whether you want to be in UK or EU.
> Sorry.
> Then according to you half of Great Britain should be Spanish?
> 
> Gibraltar like many others wants to be British in EU.
> For our survival it is vital. Not just convenient.


nope, sorry, you wanted Europe live with it, there simply wont be a EU/UK.....we voted out


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> So what you are saying is that the leave campaign should form the UK government. This I hope for too. It it is up to the electorate however. That pesky democracy again.


But absolutely.
Johnson and Gove have to accept the responsibility for what they caused.
If they did as career move hoping it will not happen or as a personal vendetta , they have to answer for it?

They would have to steer Britain through Brexit, their project, their execution then.
Till the worst is over. Like next twenty years?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Colliebarmy said:


> nope, sorry, you wanted Europe live with it, there simply wont be a EU/UK.....we voted out


When we voted there was. Still is.


----------



## havoc

Probably *at least* ten years before there's a hope of stability. I get the feeling people seem to think this two year Article 50 timescale will be the end of 'uncertainty'. I can't see how.

We are going to be a divided society for a long time. Things have to get worse before they get better. We 'eased' into the EU as it is now over a long time and we'll be jumping out relatively quickly - don't think there's much chance of a soft landing.


----------



## CuddleMonster

shadowmare said:


> I'm just sorry for the younger generations, because the voting was done by people who wanted a change, to build a new Great Britain or whatever... But a huge proportion of this won't even be doing any of the 'building' because they are either unemployed or retired. Meanwhile *a lot of young people who didn't want any of this will be grafting for them*... Or alternatively simply pack their bags and leave together with all those immigrants.


64% of 18-24s didn't vote. If they didn't want to leave the EU, they should have voted remain. Tired of hearing people blaming 'oldies' for ruining the lives of young people who couldn't be bothered to vote for themselves.


----------



## havoc

They'll get to feel much better about it soon enough. One early casualty will probably be the triple lock on the state pension and pension age could well rise again.


----------



## emmaviolet

havoc said:


> They'll get to feel much better about it soon enough. One early casualty will probably be the triple lock on the state pension and pension age could well rise again.


Yes, I feel the pensions will now not be off limits and there will be cuts to this and the extras they get like the fuel allowance, tv license and bus passes.


----------



## Colliebarmy

cheekyscrip said:


> But absolutely.
> Johnson and Gove have to accept the responsibility for what they caused.
> If they did as career move hoping it will not happen or as a personal vendetta , they have to answer for it?
> 
> They would have to steer Britain through Brexit, their project, their execution then.
> Till the worst is over. Like next twenty years?


Note how the state of the pound and share market has slipped into the background

funny that

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133


----------



## havoc

_Yes, I feel the pensions will now not be off limits and there will be cuts to this_

It's what they voted for.


----------



## Colliebarmy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/markets/europe/lse_ukx


----------



## havoc

_Note how the state of the pound and share market has slipped into the background
funny that_
Our credit rating hasn't - and won't.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Yen and gold retreat as Brexit shock fades

https://next.ft.com/content/e68fc24c-3cdd-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a


----------



## Colliebarmy

havoc said:


> _Note how the state of the pound and share market has slipped into the background
> funny that_
> Our credit rating hasn't - and won't.


mines fine


----------



## DoodlesRule

emmaviolet said:


> I think it was all so we could just say we was 'free of the EU laws', although I've yet to see one person say how it impacted their day to day life in any way that you would curse it. But boy they helped a lot of places that didn't realise it.


Two examples - car insurance, because young men have more accidents they always paid more. EU laws said could no longer do that, insurers are not going to lose so the upshot was women had to pay more. Annuities, statistically men die younger so always got a better annuity rate, again EU laws stopped that so men now get less


----------



## Colliebarmy

DoodlesRule said:


> Two examples - car insurance, because young men have more accidents they always paid more. EU laws said could no longer do that, insurers are not going to lose so the upshot was women had to pay more. Annuities, statistically men die younger so always got a better annuity rate, again EU laws stopped that so men now get less


bad risks pay more, thats insurance

otherwise it means low risk drivers are subsidising bad drivers


----------



## shadowmare

CuddleMonster said:


> 64% of 18-24s didn't vote. If they didn't want to leave the EU, they should have voted remain. Tired of hearing people blaming 'oldies' for ruining the lives of young people who couldn't be bothered to vote for themselves.


Oh, but that's the thing... The young ones have still got a chance for a better living. They just need to pack their bags and go. That is what a lot of the 'able' will do. Which may leave UK with a lot of elderly people and those young who are already unemployed or would struggle to get a job even in previous circumstance. Say whatever you want - some people really have put the rope around their necks. Those who don't agree with this new UK and have the opportunity to go, will do exactly that.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Colliebarmy said:


> bad risks pay more, thats insurance
> 
> otherwise it means low risk drivers are subsidising bad drivers


Yes its common sense, until EU law outlawed that claiming sexual discrimination


----------



## kimthecat

What happened to keep calm and carry on.



havoc said:


> Probably *at least* ten years before there's a hope of stability.


 What are you basing this on .


----------



## havoc

_ What are you basing this on ._
The two year timescale for Article 50 isn't the end, it's only the timescale for negotiations. After that it's a case of watching and waiting to see how the exit actually affects us. As in everything there will be short term winners and losers but no foreign company is going to look at moving to the UK, creating jobs here, investing here until they're sure it's a safe bet. Every single trade deal we have has to be re-negotiated because we are a different entity now and that can't happen until we know the details of our exit terms. Whether we are a more or less attractive proposition has yet to be seen but we are looking at years post actual exit for the position to become clear and in the meantime the world will carry on around us.


----------



## Honeys mum

EU referendum: Back of the queue? No, Britain's Commonwealth friends and allies will welcome Brexit | City A.M.


----------



## MollySmith

With apologies to @KittenKong  It's another petition link.

A petition asking for Farage to be removed from the EU parliament in case anyone wants to sign. Frankly I'm signing anything that shuts that monumental arsewipe up.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petiti...?source=facebook-share-button&time=1467151194


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> They'll get to feel much better about it soon enough. One early casualty will probably be the triple lock on the state pension and pension age could well rise again.


Its very likely the pension age will rise to eventually 68 in the future , nothing to do with leaving the EU .
Women in their fifties are already suffering due to changes in the State pension ,
http://www.waspi.co.uk/ They are demonstrating today.


----------



## Honeys mum

The pound is pushing higher - Yahoo Finance UK


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> The pound is pushing higher - Yahoo Finance UK


Wait till Brexit actually will be triggered ..

And when it actually happens....

At least expats coming back would have better access to property market as well as any foreigners if want to buy?

Pound crashed. Recovered minimally in comparison. 
So far prices are still based on pre- referendum supplies...
Wait till new prices of petrol, food, heating....

Few months from now....

@havoc ..you are such optimist! It might take a generation!!!


----------



## kimthecat

Petrol dropped to a very low price a few of months a go and then started going up each week and it had nothing to do with Referendum , but more to do with markets. I expect it will go up again .

I really don't think it will take a generation to sort out ! 

Perhaps the Leavers should try reading Feel the Fear and do it anyway and some CBT . I find it very helpful


----------



## havoc

Is a rising pound good or bad?


----------



## kimthecat

Good question . It depends. people will moan whatever it does !


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Good question . It depends. people will moan whatever it does !


Are your savings in pounds ? Your pensions?
But if you owe lots of money on no interest base....lucky!!!


----------



## havoc

If you're a business which exports - and provides jobs? There are business leaders who think the currency needs serious devaluation - or are they just moaning?


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> If you're a business which exports - and provides jobs? There are business leaders who think the currency needs serious devaluation - or are they just moaning?


Welsh MP asked today along with others if they get not a pound less from Leavers to replace EU subsidies. As promised.

Oh...that might be so!! Leave camp never made promises on the value of pound!!!!
Lol!!!!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Are your savings in pounds ? Your pensions?
> But if you owe lots of money on no interest base....lucky!!!


What I meant is that if it goes up , some people will benefit and others wont. If it goes down, the ones that benefited when it was up now wont and the ones that didn't benefit now will . So what ever happens to it , there will be people who will lose out . ( I hope that makes sense)

So again , is the pound rising a good or bad thing . It depends. It fell sharply and it it returns to its original state , will the business thing it need to be devalued , because AFAIK they didnt before.

Due to the low interest rates for years, saving haven't done well for years . It was discussed in this thread earlier. ..


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> What I meant is that if it goes up , some people will benefit and others wont and if it goes down the same but the ones that benefited wont and the ones that didn't will . So what ever happens to it , there will be people who will lose out .
> 
> So again , is the pound rising a good or bad thing . It depends. It fell sharply and it it returns to its original state , will the business thing it need to be devalued , because AFAIK they didnt before.
> 
> Due to the low interest rates for years, saving haven't done well for years . It was discussed in this thread earlier. ..


It is long way to return...

And no economy likes to be devaluated too much..

But it seems the recovery might be due to hopes that Brexit will not happen.
Wait till they pull the trigger....

No one died as yet...


----------



## DoodlesRule

MollySmith said:


> With apologies to @KittenKong  It's another petition link.
> 
> A petition asking for Farage to be removed from the EU parliament in case anyone wants to sign. Frankly I'm signing anything that shuts that monumental arsewipe up.
> 
> https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/block-nigel-farage-from-the-european-parliament?source=facebook-share-button&time=1467151194


Frankly that is ridiculous - he is an elected MEP he has every right to be there. Its like starting a petition to stop Jeremy Corbyn speaking in parliament because he is an idiot who talks outdated 1970's militant drivel


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> If you're a business which exports - and provides jobs? There are business leaders who think the currency needs serious devaluation - or are they just moaning?


 I don't make the rules , there will always be winners and losers . Maybe they should discuss devaluation with those who don't think it should be devalued and sort it amongst themselves .


----------



## KittenKong

Good point Doodles, but I never understood how those who loathe the EU could become, or want to become MEPs in the first place.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Good point Doodles, but I never understood how those who loathe the EU could become, or want to become MEPs in the first place unless it's to taunt others how " Britain is superior" than the rest of them". Ditto with Le Pen for France.
> 
> Before anyone says they were democratically elected, so I understand was Adolf Hitler....


Very much so.
Hitler was not elected by blood thirsty monsters.
He was elected by hard working, patriotic, ordinary people.
Who were disappointed. Who wanted a change.
There were experts and academics who warned them. Their books were soon burning.

Farage spouts nasty, vile, shameful propaganda.

He blames the EU.

While many problems are not made by EU.
Why some regions of UK are so desolate? Why benefit system gives you better living than actually working for minimal wages?

Housing crisis.

Illegal immigration. Non EU immigration. Radicalisation.

Lots of bureaucracy. Constant changes in education systems. Offsted.

Public transport.
London riots.

Poor performance in Euro 2016 and Eurovision.

Horrible weather just now.

Farage himself.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Good point Doodles, but I never understood how those who loathe the EU could become, or want to become MEPs in the first place.


To bring it down from the inside like he effectively told them yesterday?


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> .
> Hitler was not elected by blood thirsty monsters.


I have to say I find the constant references to Hitler a little grating.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> I have to say I find the constant references to Hitler a little grating.


My fault as I mentioned him as an example of how not all democratically elected persons can be considered desirable as we've seen the world all over.

I agree such a monster should not receive any publicity whether good or bad.

I have therefore edited my original post.


----------



## Satori

havoc said:


> Probably *at least* ten years before there's a hope of stability. I get the feeling people seem to think this two year Article 50 timescale will be the end of 'uncertainty'. I can't see how.
> 
> We are going to be a divided society for a long time. Things have to get worse before they get better. We 'eased' into the EU as it is now over a long time and we'll be jumping out relatively quickly - don't think there's much chance of a soft landing.


I doubt it will take even two years. The complexity is greatly exaggerated.

France and Germany have already ruled out a trade deal win the UK post-brexit, unless on BAU terms, so there's no need to waste any time at all on EU single market trade talks. So, it's basically a number of easily identified legal work-steams to get resourced and up and running. Any resources we had planned for commercial resources should be focussed on India, China, Australia, USA etc and there's no reason that work cannot begin there even before we trigger article 50.

I've no doubt that when we tell France and Germany that we are not interested they will be back asking for a trade deal before long. I'd stick them at the back of the queue for being so intransigent now.

I can't help but feel that the people who are making a mountain out of this molehill are politicians and bureaucrats who are used to a very sedate pace of work. Get some real business do-ers against this, pay them appropriately and get this thing time-boxed and it'll be over well before the two years imo.


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> I doubt it will take even two years. The complexity is greatly exaggerated.
> 
> France and Germany have already ruled out a trade deal win the UK post-brexit, unless on BAU terms, so there's no need to waste any time at all on EU single market trade talks. So, it's basically a number of easily identified legal work-steams to get resourced and up and running. Any resources we had planned for commercial resources should be focussed on India, China, Australia, USA etc and there's no reason that work cannot begin there even before we trigger article 50.
> 
> I've no doubt that when we tell France and Germany that we are not interested they will be back asking for a trade deal before long. I'd stick them at the back of the queue for being so intransigent now.
> 
> I can't help but feel that the people who are making a mountain out of this molehill are politicians and bureaucrats who are used to a very sedate pace of work. Get some real business do-ers against this, pay them appropriately and get this thing time-boxed and it'll be over well before the two years imo.


You forgot New Zealand


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Very much so.
> Hitler was not elected by blood thirsty monsters.
> He was elected by hard working, patriotic, ordinary people.
> Who were disappointed. Who wanted a change.
> There were experts and academics who warned them. Their books were soon burning.
> 
> Farage spouts nasty, vile, shameful propaganda.
> .


Hitlers rise to power began when they lost WW1 , the Germans were heavily punished by the allies , Treaty of Versaiiles there was the Great Depression which started after a financial collapse in America in 1929 , it went on for years, America called in its loans and Germany economy collapsed and 6 million became unemployed , communism was on the rise., The german goverment in chaos , The president came up with plan to get the Hitkers elected party on his side by offering him vice chancellor , he said no asked and got Chancellor, he then was able to make himself absolutely ruler using Article 48 plus his brown shirts stabbed to death his rivals .

Not quite the same situation here! 52% who voted Leave , are not all Nazis or racists !


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

CuddleMonster said:


> 64% of 18-24s didn't vote. If they didn't want to leave the EU, they should have voted remain. Tired of hearing people blaming 'oldies' for ruining the lives of young people who couldn't be bothered to vote for themselves.


Really? That figure surprises me; of course not everyone votes but I would have expected a higher turnout in that group.

Do we know what % of the so-called 'oldies' voted?


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> I have to say I find the constant references to Hitler a little grating.


But I think we can all learn from history, it's what makes us all to lesser and larger degree.

The ironic historical fact that I was reminded of yesterday in proof checking a history book is that most dictators have used referendums to bring themselves to power, by giving the illusion of control and to divide. Hitler had some votes on closed questions. In 1975, Thatcher called them 'a device of dictators and demagogues'. Anyone who knows me well, knows how hard it would be to quote that woman! But whilst I do not agree with her views on anything much, I think she had a point! As did Clement Atlee who first coined this phrase.

I am not saying that anyone apart from perhaps those involved in Jo Cox's murder share anything with Hitler but we should learn lessons from the past to build a better future.


----------



## MollySmith

DoodlesRule said:


> Frankly that is ridiculous - he is an elected MEP he has every right to be there. Its like starting a petition to stop Jeremy Corbyn speaking in parliament because he is an idiot who talks outdated 1970's militant drivel


I think the petition was started by a J-C Juncker...

But I still query why someone who has planned for 25 years ends up a place representing a country he want out of it.... and yet has offshore investment.

And why does he get paid to do this?




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153851902811939



I'll sign almost anything to appease the incandescent rage I feel in watching that awful man shame us.


----------



## samuelsmiles

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133

The FTSE 100 has finished today higher than at the close last Thursday, Germany's Angela Merkel said the EU must "respect the result" of the vote and David Cameron is now speaking calmly about still working closely with the EU countries.

Maybe it is time now to accept the referendum result, be positive and be excited about the future.

I hate the tub-thumping that Nigel Farage indulges in but also feel very lucky to have been born in Britain with the freedoms it gives us. It's far from perfect, but where is?

_

_


----------



## Satori

samuelsmiles said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133
> 
> The FTSE 100 has finished today higher than at the close last Thursday, Germany's Angela Merkel said the EU must "respect the result" of the vote and David Cameron is now speaking calmly about still working closely with the EU countries.
> 
> Maybe it is time now to accept the referendum result, be positive and be excited about the future.
> 
> I hate the tub-thumping that Nigel Farage indulges in but also feel very lucky to have been born in Britain with the freedoms it gives us. It's far from perfect, but where is?


Totally agree. This couldn't have played out better. The S&P500 is only down about 1%. The GBP/USD pair is down about 10%. The Labour Party is disintegrating. The EU is teetering. We are going to get a proper right-of-centre EU-sceptical Tory leadership for the next decade at least. The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!


----------



## MollySmith

Honeys mum said:


> The pound is pushing higher - Yahoo Finance UK





cheekyscrip said:


> Wait till Brexit actually will be triggered ..
> 
> And when it actually happens....
> 
> At least expats coming back would have better access to property market as well as any foreigners if want to buy?
> 
> Pound crashed. Recovered minimally in comparison.
> So far prices are still based on pre- referendum supplies...
> Wait till new prices of petrol, food, heating....
> 
> Few months from now....
> 
> @havoc ..you are such optimist! It might take a generation!!!


It may rise now, but that's not always a sign of confidence. Confidence will come if China and Japan don't deep freeze all their investments in UK. It's less about the EU now and more about the promised continuation of world investment. This from the World Economic Forum on 27th June:

"For Chinese firms that are going to invest or carry out mergers, entrepreneurs are smarter than me, and they will definitely wait and see," Xu Shaoshi, chairman of the National Development and Reform Commission, said at WEF on Sunday.

The "Brexit" decision "will cast a shadow over the global economy ... The repercussions and fallout will emerge in the next five to 10 years," said Lou Jiwei, China's minister of finance, at the first annual meeting of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank in Beijing.


----------



## kimthecat

Satori said:


> Totally agree. This couldn't have played out better. The S&P500 is only down about 1%. The GBP/USD pair is down about 10%. The Labour Party is disintegrating. The EU is teetering. We are going to get a proper right-of-centre EU-sceptical Tory leadership for the next decade at least. The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!


 No guts , no glory !

Seriously though , Great Britain will be blamed for everything that goes wrong in the future. Over half of the UK voted to leave , they /we voted ( rightly or wrongly) because they felt it best for the UK and/or for themselves. 
Other countries would do the same if they had a vote , they would put there own interests first .


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> It may rise now, but that's not always a sign of confidence. Confidence will come if China and Japan don't deep freeze all their investments in UK. It's less about the EU now and more about the promised continuation of world investment. This from the World Economic Forum on 27th June:
> 
> "For Chinese firms that are going to invest or carry out mergers, entrepreneurs are smarter than me, and they will definitely wait and see," Xu Shaoshi, chairman of the National Development and Reform Commission, said at WEF on Sunday.
> 
> .


@MollySmith China have invested in a lot of property in London and we joined the AIIB China world bank , we have invested money in it . I'm not sure what would happened about that if they freeze investments here .

.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...tional-interest-depsite-Washington-anger.html


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> @MollySmith China have invested in a lot of property in London and we joined the AIIB China world bank , we have invested money in it . I'm not sure what would happened about that if they freeze investments here .
> 
> .http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...tional-interest-depsite-Washington-anger.html


I'm pulling in info from a friend who is brainy and important enough to attend this important event. Almost all the investors from the far east that they've spoken to have said they are deep freezing investment plans in the UK and concentrating on the EU. That is not to say that's representative of all (just as the vote isn't accounting for everyone's opinion here).


----------



## Sacrechat

havoc said:


> _Yes, I feel the pensions will now not be off limits and there will be cuts to this_
> 
> It's what they voted for.


The pension age rose while we are in the EU, so in or out this government would still do what it likes.


----------



## CuddleMonster

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Really? That figure surprises me; of course not everyone votes but I would have expected a higher turnout in that group.
> 
> Do we know what % of the so-called 'oldies' voted?


According to the tables I've seen, 83% of over 65s voted and of them 60% voted leave.
36% of 18-24s voted and of them 73% voted remain.


----------



## Jobeth

A Singapore bank has suspended property loans to London and they were the biggest source of investment in the property market last year. We have also lost our AAA credit rating. I certainly think there should be concerns over the financial instability this has caused. The government should be showing decisive leadership. Instead both parties are focusing on internal politics.


----------



## Happy Paws2

CuddleMonster said:


> According to the tables I've seen,* 83%* *of over 65s voted and of them 60% voted leave.*
> 36% of 18-24s voted and of them 73% voted remain.


I didn't


----------



## kimthecat

Jobeth said:


> A Singapore bank has suspended property loans to London and they were the biggest source of investment in the property market last year. We have also lost our AAA credit rating. I certainly think there should be concerns over the financial instability this has caused. The government should be showing decisive leadership. Instead both parties are focusing on internal politics.


Its temporary . the other banks haven't stopped. But yes , our politics are a mess.

Foreign investment from Singapore, china etc has forced up London prices and helped to create a shortage of affordable prices and reasonable rents so perhaps this is a way of cooling the market down .
In my area in the outer suburbs , for example , three years ago , 2013, friend sold a three bed semi at £280,000. Semis are now for sale at between £450 to 500, 000, Rent would be about £1500 per month .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36670075

UOB told the BBC in a statement: "We will temporarily stop receiving foreign property loan applications for London properties."

"As the aftermath of the UK referendum is still unfolding and given the uncertainties, we need to ensure our customers are cautious with their London property investments."

*Exchange rate risks*
Singapore's biggest lender, DBS, is continuing to provide financing, but is advising its customers to be cautious.

"For customers interested in buying properties in London, we would advise them to assess the situation carefully," DBS executive director of secured lending, Tok Geok Peng, told the BBC.

"With foreign exchange risks, even if the value of the overseas property rises, any gains will be eroded if the country's currency depreciates against the Singapore dollar," Mr Tok explained.

Singapore's other big lender, OCBC bank, told the BBC it had not made any changes to its advisory policy.

Head of consumer secured lending Phang Lah Hwa told the BBC that OCBC was still making financing available for London properties and was "monitoring the situation closely".


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws said:


> I didn't


Yes, so you were in the 40% that voted remain.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> But I think we can all learn from history, it's what makes us all to lesser and larger degree.
> 
> The ironic historical fact that I was reminded of yesterday in proof checking a history book is that most dictators have used referendums to bring themselves to power, by giving the illusion of control and to divide. .


But the point is this is a totally different circumstance.

If Cameron wanted to be a dictator, he's not very good at it.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> But the point is this is a totally different circumstance.
> 
> If Cameron wanted to be a dictator, he's not very good at it.


The poor man was forced into it by UKIP and the far right of his party, not forgetting the press.

He was the puppet, they pulled the strings.

PM backs Remain. Press destroy him like others before him, (some didn't get a chance like Milliband and Corbyn).

I rather feel sorry for him.


----------



## havoc

_The pension age rose while we are in the EU, so in or out this government would still do what it likes._

You're right and I should have made it clear I was echoing the opinion of Peter Hargreaves who stated very quickly post referendum that the triple lock will go and pension age will need to rise further. I have assumed that the rich and powerful who will have the ear of government will be those who backed the leave campaign so it is their opinions I am taking note of.


----------



## kimthecat

Seems the EU are talking turkey !

*Brussels:* The European Union announced on Thursday it had opened a new negotiating chapter with Turkey on its long-stalled bid for membership of the bloc, as part of its migrant deal with Ankara.

This is the link , it has annoying pop up ads 
http://www.firstpost.com/world/eu-opens-new-chapter-in-turkey-membership-talks-2865036.html


----------



## havoc

Got nothing to do with us and there will be a spare seat at the table.


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> Got nothing to do with us and there will be a spare seat at the table.


 yes , it will be nothing to do with us but I pointed it out because there was doubt of how long it would be before Turkey joined. Some were suggesting many years and that the Btrexit campaign was scaremongering .


----------



## MollySmith

Homer ton University Hospital


----------



## cheekyscrip

Boris said about consequences" Project Fear"

So now stay "
positive and proud"...


----------



## MollySmith

deleted


----------



## MollySmith

Colliebarmy said:


> nope, sorry, you wanted Europe live with it, there simply wont be a EU/UK.....we voted out


Correction - *you* voted out. Not me and I am proud to have voted *in!!*.


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> I am proud to have voted out.


Now we get the truth.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Correction - *you* voted out. Not me and I am proud to have voted out.


So it's YOU who will be sending all those nurses home?!


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> So it's YOU who will be sending all those nurses home?!


Eeeeek!

I voted remain and I'll fix that now!!!

Ta!

(shudders)


----------



## Lurcherlad

MollySmith said:


> Homer ton University Hospital


I'm pretty sure that under current or future rules, none of those people pictured would be shipped out of the country.

Presumably, there aren't lots of highly qualified nationals on the dole who could fill these roles?

If there are, what is the solution?

Should they be looking for employment abroad, given that it will have cost our NHS a considerable sum of money to train them?


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Seems the EU are talking turkey !
> 
> *Brussels:* The European Union announced on Thursday it had opened a new negotiating chapter with Turkey on its long-stalled bid for membership of the bloc, as part of its migrant deal with Ankara.
> 
> This is the link , it has annoying pop up ads
> http://www.firstpost.com/world/eu-opens-new-chapter-in-turkey-membership-talks-2865036.html


Did you not know this before the referendum?

This article is from 15th June. There may be older ones; I didn't look very hard.

https://euobserver.com/tickers/133842

It doesn't mean Turkey are going to join any time soon. That was just another Leave .. let's call it an 'opinion'.


----------



## kimthecat

I get my info from Twitter . dont know how creditable this is bu it sounds hopefull.

http://heatst.com/uk/us-uk-trade-bill-in-congress-just-one-week-after-brexit-vote/
Despite claims that the US would banish Britain to the "back of the queue" if it dared to leave the European Union, Congress is already considering measures to boost trade with the UK.

A bill to lock down current trading arrangements, and fire the starting gun on a bilateral deal, was introduced to the US Senate yesterday.

The United Kingdom Trade Continuity Act mandates the US to keep trading on exactly the same terms after Britain leaves the EU.
It also urges the President to start fast-track talks with the UK, with the aim of concluding a bilateral trade deal in just one year.

The bill (full text below) was introduced by senators Mike Lee (R-UT) and Tom Cotton (R-AR), who said strengthening the so-called special relationship is in the interest of both nations.
It comes after a string of nations made positive noises about stepping up UK trade within days of it ditching the EU, which removes the ability of member states to strike their own deals.

The crucial section of the bill reads: "Not later than 30 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the President should initiate negotiations with the United Kingdom with the goal of reaching a final comprehensive bilateral trade agreement by the date that is one year after such date of enactment; and the President should make every effort to negotiate such an agreement expeditiously."

Such a timescale is in stark contrast to the beleaguered TTIP deal between the US and the EU, which has been under negotiation for more than a decade.

Some experts have suggested that Brexit may have destroyed the deal completely.

While the bill has no power to compel the President to do anything, it would be a strong sign that the US prioritizes closer economic relations with the UK.

In a statement on the bill, Senator Lee said: "Our nation's special relationship with the United Kingdom has promoted economic prosperity and security in both countries for over a hundred years.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Arnie83 said:


> Did you not know this before the referendum?
> 
> This article is from 15th June. There may be older ones; I didn't look very hard.
> .


It's not all 'old news'. This appeared on the BBC News page (dated one day ago 30th June). They are in talks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36672242

QUOTE 
*Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu tweeted that Turkey had met "almost all" of the criteria demanded by the EU under the March deal so, he argued, the EU should now fulfil the visa liberalisation pledge. It would mean Turks getting visa-free travel to most of Europe.*

They are way off becoming full members I suspect but by the looks of things negotiations are continuing .....
*
J*


----------



## Colliebarmy

QUOTE 
*Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu tweeted that Turkey had met "almost all" of the criteria demanded by the EU under the March deal so, he argued, the EU should now fulfil the visa liberalisation pledge. It would mean Turks getting visa-free travel to most of Europe.*
*
When he has full security at Ataturk airport THEN he can back up his claims...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Ataturk-airport-cause-multiple-injuries.html*


----------



## samuelsmiles

I found this speech from Daniel Hannan very convincing and rather stirring. He is talking purely about trading with the world and how being out of the EU will help us do this. I voted leave for trade reasons but on the Friday morning after the referendum felt as though I had been involved in some sort of dastardly racist triumph. We'll be OK if people pull together and get excited about the future instead of just raging and whining and fighting about everything. Theresa May, I think, would be a starting point to steady the ship a bit.

Great speech this -


----------



## Colliebarmy

why worry about trade with Europe when the other 84% of world trade is outside the EU, India owns Jaguar Land rover, China build the London Taxi, and the new MG, and Japan has at least 3 car factories here, Europe/EU wont want to lose their sales here


----------



## Colliebarmy

We run a massive trade deficit with the EU (but a surplus with the rest of the world). On the day we "left", we’d become the EU’s single biggest market, accounting for 21 per cent of its exports – more than its second and third largest markets (the US and Japan) combined.


UK trade with the EU is circa £144 billion exported and £240 billion imported giving a UK deficit of £96 billion. Not only is this trade in favour of the EU countries but they also benefit from up to 50% greater profits selling into the UK market, than in their own markets. From the factual trade figures it can be concluded that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.


----------



## Colliebarmy




----------



## MollySmith

I tend to trust academics more than a politician they tend to be much better experienced and educated, and have far more expertise in their areas than you or I. I quote A.C Grayling who wrote today to every single MP in the Houses of Parliament. In case you don't know who is is "Anthony Grayling MA, DPhil (Oxon) FRSL, FRSA is Master of the New College of the Humanities, and a Supernumerary Fellow of St Anne's College, Oxford. Until 2011 he was Professor of Philosophy at Birkbeck College, University of London. He has written and edited over thirty books on philosophy and other subjects; among his most recent are "The Good Book", "Ideas That Matter", "Liberty in the Age of Terror" and "To Set Prometheus Free". For several years he wrote the "Last Word" column for the Guardian newspaper and a column for the Times. He is a frequent contributor to the Literary Review, Observer, Independent on Sunday, Times Literary Supplement, Index on Censorship and New Statesman, and is an equally frequent broadcaster on BBC Radios 4, 3 and the World Service. He writes the "Thinking Read" column for the Barnes and Noble Review in New York, is the Editor of Online Review London, and a Contributing Editor of Prospect magazine.

In addition he sits on the editorial boards of several academic journals, and for nearly ten years was the Honorary Secretary of the principal British philosophical association, the Aristotelian Society. He is a past chairman of June Fourth, a human rights group concerned with China, and is a representative to the UN Human Rights Council for the International Humanist and Ethical Union. He is a Vice President of the British Humanist Association, the Patron of the United Kingdom Armed Forces Humanist Association, a patron of Dignity in Dying, and an Honorary Associate of the National Secular Society.

Anthony Grayling was a Fellow of the World Economic Forum for several years, and a member of its C-100 group on relations between the West and the Islamic world. He has served as a Trustee of the London Library and a board member of the Society of Authors. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. In 2003 he was a Man Booker Prize judge, in 2010 was a judge of the Art Fund prize, and in 2011 the Wellcome Book Prize. He was the chairman of the 2014 Man Booker Prize.

He supports a number of charities including Plan UK, Greenpeace, Médecins Sans Frontières, Amnesty International and Freedom from Torture. He is also a sponsor of Rogbonko School in Sierra Leone.

His latest books are "The God Argument" (March 2013), "Friendship" (September 2013) and "The Challenge of Things" (March 2015). Anthony Grayling's new book "The Age of Genius" will be published in March 2016."

In a nutshell - he knows a lot more stuff about the world and global relations than anyone on PF and I'd say any campaigner. @samuelsmiles, @Colliebarmy and all the leave supporters, it's why I will *not* shut up, why I'll march and why I fundamentally believe we have ALL been turned over. It's why platitudes like 'let's work together' are meaningless bits of irritating noise.

Professor A.C. Grayling
Many students at New College of the Humanities urged Professor A C Grayling, Master of the College, to express his views in light of the EU referendum result. Professor Grayling, who is a champion of the UK remaining in the EU, has written a letter asking Parliament not to support a motion to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. The letter, which is copied in full below, was physically delivered by two NCH students to all 650 MPs at Parliament this morning, 1 July 2016.

_29 June 2016_

_At the urging of many of my students - who come both from the United Kingdom and the European Union - and my own conscience, I write to you to express a respectful but strongly held view that, for the reasons set out below, Parliament should not support a motion to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. It is within your democratic remit and duty as a Member of our Parliament to vote on whether to initiate that procedure. By voting not to do so, you will keep the UK in the EU._

_The non-binding referendum, its circumstances, and its slim majority achieved in those circumstances, is not an adequate ground for the UK to leave the EU._

_The relevant factors and reasons are as follows._

_In order for the UK to begin the process of leaving the EU, Parliament has to vote in favour of invoking Article 50. It is possible that complex constitutional issues might have to be settled in advance of such a vote, for example repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act. This is a matter that legal expertise is required to settle. But the key matter in the end is a vote on whether to initiate the Article 50 procedure._

_Parliament as presently constituted has a substantial majority in favour of remaining in the EU. Given the following factors:_​

_that the referendum was advisory only and non-binding,_
_that the majority for 'Brexit' was small (3.8%),_
_that there are major questions about the circumstances of the respective Remain and especially Leave campaigns regarding probity of information, claims and promises made to voters,_
_that a serious risk of break-up of the UK impends upon a 'Brexit,'_
_that the economic consequences of a 'Brexit' are not in the UK's favour,_
_that a 'Brexit' would damage our neighbours and partners in Europe,_
_and that the future of the young of our country is focally implicated in the decision,_

_For all these reasons and more, there is a powerful case for Parliament to use its discretion to determine that it is not in the UK's interests to leave the EU._

_No doubt this will cause anxiety among those MPs who think that a simple majority in a referendum confers a moral, even though not legal, obligation to treat the referendum outcome as prescriptive and binding. This is far from being so, for the following reasons._

_First, in most jurisdictions major constitutional change requires a supermajority or two-thirds majority to effect them (as e.g. in the USA and Germany), whether in a legislature or in referendums. In Switzerland, which alone among developed nations employs frequent referendums in its 'semi-direct' democracy, major decisions require a double majority of the electorate and the cantons._

_For a very major change such as exiting the EU, it is not acceptable to have matters decided by a small simple majority. So great a change requires a significant degree of genuine consensus, at the minimum such as a 60% majority would reflect._

_Second, a referendum is in essence a decision by crowd acclamation. You will of course well understand that there is an excellent reason why most advanced and mature polities do not have systems of 'direct democracy' but instead have systems of representative democracy, in which legislators are not delegates sent by their constituents but agents tasked and empowered to investigate, debate and decide on behalf of their constituents. This reason is that rule by crowd acclamation is a very poor method of government._

_Consider: suppose that every item of proposed legislation were decided by referendums, which would therefore occur very frequently. Bills on health and safety in manufacturing industry, on reform of higher education, on the use of chemicals in water treatment plants, on regulation of air traffic over the nation's airports - bills proposed by government and drafted in detail by civil servants - would be presented to the public, who would then vote. Would that work?_

_Very obviously, not. The expertise, patience and time that most of the public could bring to the task would be extremely limited; the lack of expertise, especially, would be a serious, perhaps disastrous, handicap. And very soon turnouts in referendums would plummet to single figures, rendering their democratic value nugatory._

_Now I beg: really do consider the implications of the foregoing thought. Referendums are snapshots of sentiment at a given point in time. Government by referendum is government by crowd acclamation: not democracy, but ochlocracy. That is exactly why we have representative democracy. If referendums would be a poor way to decide on health and safety, air traffic control, or education, they are an exceedingly poor way to decide a matter as momentous as membership of the EU. This is and should be a matter for Parliament, taking all factors into account._

_Moreover: the circumstances of the campaigns and the consequences of the vote itself must be considered. There was a great deal of misinformation, distortion, and false promises, much of it quickly revealed in the immediate aftermath of the vote, and resiled upon even by those who had made those claims and promises. Tabloid urgings for Brexit were followed, in the very same tabloids, immediately after the vote by information on its consequences which shocked readers. We have seen much reported about the post-vote regrets of people who had voted for 'Brexit,' - including some high-profile individuals who before the vote had been urging it in their newspapers._

_These factors add up to this: that there are grave doubts about whether the basis on which votes were cast, especially among many who voted for 'Brexit,' are good grounds for Members of Parliament to resign their competence and duty to consider whether the UK should leave the EU. On the contrary: these considerations make it all the more imperative that Parliament should exercise its sovereign responsibility in the matter._

_There is a formal online petition requesting a second referendum. If this petition is genuine and not the result of fraudulent computer hacking, it is the most extraordinary phenomenon: as I write these words it stands, only a few days after the vote itself, at over four million signatures. However if Parliament were to exercise its responsibility in voting down a proposal to trigger the Article 50 procedure, no second referendum would be necessary._

_Some have suggested that a following general election, in which each MP made clear his or her standpoint on Remain or Leave, would provide a definitive conclusion to Parliament's decision on the matter. However this is not constitutionally necessary: Parliament is sovereign: an election would merely prolong uncertainty._

_One of the most important reasons why Parliament must take a bold sovereign stand on the outcome of this small-majority advisory referendum, is the interests of the young. We know that the Remain and Leave votes divided along the fault lines of age, educational level, and geography. There is every reason to urge that the wishes and interests of the young - the younger, more aspirational creators of the country's future - should be given most weight. Parliament should protect those interests and respect those wishes. Some say that any among the young who could vote but did not, have only themselves to blame. This argument will not do. Those young people might have legitimately thought that their elders would not be so foolish as to betray the future by a 'Brexit' vote. But punishing them with a 'Brexit' is not the right response. The sober judgment of Parliament should be on their side._

_You might think that Parliament's discretion not to trigger the Article 50 procedure would leave matters hanging in the air, with continued uncertainty and the instability and political upheaval that it would bring._

_Not so._

_In debating and voting on whether to trigger the Article 50 procedure, it can be made clear that Parliament has noted_​

_the outcome of the advisory referendum,_
_the small size of the majority of actual votes cast (thus, not the majority of the electorate),_
_the circumstances of the campaigns,_
_the consequences both already actual and in prospect, for the future interest, unity and prosperity of the UK,_
_and the impact on our neighbours in Europe:_

_and that it is exercising its democratic duty to take a view and to vote accordingly. If the vote is to not trigger the 'Brexit' procedure, our partners in Europe can be informed and normality can be restored._

_The EU is flawed and has problems. But as a powerful member of one of the three great blocs in the world, the UK can do much to help it get better, and to work within it to help all its members realize the great ideals of peace, prosperity and co-operation for which the EU exists._

_Let us not absent ourselves from this beautiful endeavour. Let us not injure it by refusing to be part of it, thereby also damaging ourselves and the hopes of our young._

_Please - you have both the ability and the duty to use your own discretion in this matter. I very respectfully urge you to use the first and obey the second. The future truly depends on it._

_Yours sincerely,_

_Professor A. C. Grayling_

_Master of the College_​


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> Did you not know this before the referendum?
> 
> This article is from 15th June. There may be older ones; I didn't look very hard.
> 
> https://euobserver.com/tickers/133842
> 
> It doesn't mean Turkey are going to join any time soon. That was just another Leave .. let's call it an 'opinion'.


That's as may be. But even DC insisted that it would be 'years' until Turkey join. So by saying that, he absolutely agreed that it would be a bad thing for the EU.


----------



## samuelsmiles

@MollySmith - I'm more than happy to take the word of a man who has worked within the EU, _has experienced _the corruption within and is content to champion an initiative that will ultimately cost him his job.

Yes, he'll do for me.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> I get my info from Twitter . dont know how creditable this is bu it sounds hopefull.
> 
> http://heatst.com/uk/us-uk-trade-bill-in-congress-just-one-week-after-brexit-vote/
> Despite claims that the US would banish Britain to the "back of the queue" if it dared to leave the European Union, Congress is already considering measures to boost trade with the UK.
> 
> A bill to lock down current trading arrangements, and fire the starting gun on a bilateral deal, was introduced to the US Senate yesterday.
> 
> The United Kingdom Trade Continuity Act mandates the US to keep trading on exactly the same terms after Britain leaves the EU.
> It also urges the President to start fast-track talks with the UK, with the aim of concluding a bilateral trade deal in just one year.
> 
> The bill (full text below) was introduced by senators Mike Lee (R-UT) and Tom Cotton (R-AR), who said strengthening the so-called special relationship is in the interest of both nations.
> It comes after a string of nations made positive noises about stepping up UK trade within days of it ditching the EU, which removes the ability of member states to strike their own deals.
> 
> The crucial section of the bill reads: "Not later than 30 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the President should initiate negotiations with the United Kingdom with the goal of reaching a final comprehensive bilateral trade agreement by the date that is one year after such date of enactment; and the President should make every effort to negotiate such an agreement expeditiously."
> 
> Such a timescale is in stark contrast to the beleaguered TTIP deal between the US and the EU, which has been under negotiation for more than a decade.
> 
> Some experts have suggested that Brexit may have destroyed the deal completely.
> 
> While the bill has no power to compel the President to do anything, it would be a strong sign that the US prioritizes closer economic relations with the UK.
> 
> In a statement on the bill, Senator Lee said: "Our nation's special relationship with the United Kingdom has promoted economic prosperity and security in both countries for over a hundred years.


My God, you think this is a good thing? This is a takeover of our country by corporate America. Do you not understand how terrifying this is Kim? Have you not heard of TTIP? And they said the remain experts were just scaremongering when they warned this would happen if we voted brexit Everything we were warned about is coming to pass.

,


----------



## MollySmith

Colliebarmy said:


> We run a massive trade deficit with the EU (but a surplus with the rest of the world). On the day we "left", we'd become the EU's single biggest market, accounting for 21 per cent of its exports - more than its second and third largest markets (the US and Japan) combined.
> 
> UK trade with the EU is circa £144 billion exported and £240 billion imported giving a UK deficit of £96 billion. Not only is this trade in favour of the EU countries but they also benefit from up to 50% greater profits selling into the UK market, than in their own markets. From the factual trade figures it can be concluded that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.


Conversely


*The Large Hadron Collider, the world's largest particle accelerator, was only possible through international approach to collaboration*. The envisaged upgrade to the machine in the next 15 years, requiring hundreds of millions of pounds, will rest even more on co-operation rather than a national venture.
Almost €1.4 billion (£1.11 billion) has been allocated to science research from the EU since 2014, "the equivalent to another Research Council", according to university officials.
Since 2007 Britain has won almost 1,400 of more than 5,000 grants from the European Research Council, receiving 22% of allocated funds. That support has backed achievements from 3D imaging for regenerative medicine to the understanding of proto-galaxies to the latest advances in nano-science.
Stephen Hawking and around 150 other members of the Royal Society at Cambridge University have said that a vote for Brexit would be a "disaster for UK science and universities.
The EU budgeted an estimated €120 billion ($134 billion) to directly support research and innovation projects from 2014 to 2020, and Britain has been a major beneficiary. From 2007 to 2013, the UK contributed an estimated €5.4 billion to EU research and development, according to the UK Office of National Statistics. During that time period, it received €8.8 billion in direct EU funding for research, development, and innovation (figures from the RS).
The EU Marie Slodowska-Curie mobility fellowships, which support EU scientists to come to Britain as postdoctoral fellows meant that British laboratories were awarded over €1bn between 2007 and 2014. Again, we receive more than we put in, as we received almost double the amount of money than the next best funded country, Germany.
The biggest impact is probably the Erasmus exchange studentships, which fund tens of thousands of undergraduate and diploma students to move in each direction every year. Many end up doing research in British labs, and those that go abroad bring back training and skills.
An additional £60 billion of funding has now been made available to EU countries through the successor Horizon 2020 programme. We needed to remain in the EU so we can compete for and win much more of those funds for mental health research. _This actually isn't true because we'll lose it now._
The UK received over £700million of funding for medical research projects from the European Union's FP7 programme (for mental health) more than any other EU country. Plus £192m funding into cancer cures... from the EU
*What does this have to do with you? What on earth goes on in science that affects me? Well, this research has pushed forward pioneering advances in Alzheimers, IVF and cancer. The EU has propped up UK cancer research to the tune of £126m in the past decade, amounting to more than 40% of public money poured into the work. So this AFFECTS ALL OF US!*

I have taken off my socks and counted it all up, and that sorta beats the alleged 'deficit'. Essentially in a tribute act to Farage you are playing chancellor when you have no idea of the wider picture. You cannot cherry pick.

The bit you forgot in your selective highlights of that blog post was the conclusion, which I think is useful to share..

"So how important would exporting to the UK be to the EU economy after Brexit? EU exports to the UK would represent about 3 percent of EU GDP; not negligible by any means, but equally perhaps not as dramatic as one might think. *The EU, and even more so the UK, would certainly have a strong incentive to negotiate a sensible trading arrangement post-Brexit. But no-one should imagine the UK holds all the cards."*


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> My God, you think this is a good thing? This is a takeover of our country by corporate America. Do you not understand how terrifying this is Kim? Have you not heard of TTIP? And they said the remain experts were just scaremongering when they warned this would happen if we voted brexit Everything we were warned about is coming to pass.
> 
> ,


 oh yeah , I forgot . The govermnemt are lying bastards.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> http://www.chemtrust.org.uk/tag/ttip/
> 
> http://corporateeurope.org/sites/de...tion_and_regulatory_cooperation_in_ttip_0.pdf
> 
> This type of thing may sway me





kimthecat said:


> I get my info from Twitter . dont know how creditable this is bu it sounds hopefull.
> 
> http://heatst.com/uk/us-uk-trade-bill-in-congress-just-one-week-after-brexit-vote/
> Despite claims that the US would banish Britain to the "back of the queue" if it dared to leave the European Union, Congress is already considering measures to boost trade with the UK.
> 
> A bill to lock down current trading arrangements, and fire the starting gun on a bilateral deal, was introduced to the US Senate yesterday.
> 
> The United Kingdom Trade Continuity Act mandates the US to keep trading on exactly the same terms after Britain leaves the EU.
> It also urges the President to start fast-track talks with the UK, with the aim of concluding a bilateral trade deal in just one year.
> 
> The bill (full text below) was introduced by senators Mike Lee (R-UT) and Tom Cotton (R-AR), who said strengthening the so-called special relationship is in the interest of both nations.
> It comes after a string of nations made positive noises about stepping up UK trade within days of it ditching the EU, which removes the ability of member states to strike their own deals.
> 
> The crucial section of the bill reads: "Not later than 30 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the President should initiate negotiations with the United Kingdom with the goal of reaching a final comprehensive bilateral trade agreement by the date that is one year after such date of enactment; and the President should make every effort to negotiate such an agreement expeditiously."
> 
> Such a timescale is in stark contrast to the beleaguered TTIP deal between the US and the EU, which has been under negotiation for more than a decade.
> 
> Some experts have suggested that Brexit may have destroyed the deal completely.
> 
> While the bill has no power to compel the President to do anything, it would be a strong sign that the US prioritizes closer economic relations with the UK.
> 
> In a statement on the bill, Senator Lee said: "Our nation's special relationship with the United Kingdom has promoted economic prosperity and security in both countries for over a hundred years.


"*We are heading for TTIP on steroids"

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership - also known as TTIP - could be the next casualty in the Brexit fallout. But not in the way you might expect. The controversial trade agreement between the EU and United States could well fall apart, only for the UK to pick up the pieces for its own trade deal.

For the UK, leaving the European Union means leaving the numerous trade deals it is party to. This includes the free trade it has with the 27 other EU members and the EU's agreements with 50 other countries. It also means exclusion from the deals currently being negotiated - an agreement with Japan and, of course, TTIP. But for the EU, Brexit could mean the end of TTIP altogether.

The idea behind TTIP, billed as an ambitious and comprehensive trade and investment agreement, is to promote growth in Europe and the US by opening up the US to EU firms and vice versa. It will do so by cutting the red tape of regulation that firms face when exporting, and would set new rules to make it easier and fairer to export, import and invest overseas.

Sounds like a great thing overall then? Not necessarily. Many have expressed concerns over the openness of the negotiations, the content of the deal and the influence of big business into drafting and approving standards.

Sticking points

The two main sticking points are a clause called the investor-state dispute settlement, which would allow companies to sue states directly for alleged violations of the terms of the deal, and also how it will affect the legal protections of agricultural products. It might sound trivial but trade in agricultural products is a major issue for negotiators trying to satisfy say, on the one hand, French wine and cheese producers and, on the other hand, American GM crop growers and enhanced meat producers.

The EU gives strong legal protection for numerous products - particularly in the form of designated origins (Cornish pasties must come from Cornwall and Feta cheese from Greece, for example). This gives them a competitive advantage in a big market - which is why the US opposes it.

There are also concerns about food safety and quality, especially around modified food products available in the US, but currently banned in Europe. These concerns have to be weighed up against the huge market that European exporters would have access to in the US. It is a market that currently has big restrictions to it - British lamb and venison cannot currently be exported to the US, for example.

Trade champions
Due to long and organised resistance, the project, which started in June 2013, has been faltering. No agreement has yet been reached, nor does it seem close to being found on the most contentious issues. Brexit might be the final nail in the coffin.

It is widely acknowledged that the main driver for TTIP has been the UK. The reason for this is that successive British governments have seen their role as the bridge between an economically liberal US and a protectionist and traditional EU.

The UK had been a foothold of Anglo-Saxon capitalism in a Europe that is dominated by governments which are very protective over their industries and generally play a large role in their economies. Once this bridge with the UK is severed, what is there to ensure that reluctant European policymakers will push through a deal in the face of widespread popular resistance?

Without the British push towards liberalisation the deal risks dying a quick death, contrary to recent proclamations from both the EU and the US that a deal is expected by the end of the year.

There is an ironic twist in the fate of TTIP, however. Once it leaves the EU, the UK is likely to pursue its own trade deal with the US. And it is extremely unlikely to differ from TTIP for a few reasons.

First, trade deals take a lot of time to negotiate. The EU is having such a hard time concluding deals not because it is bureaucratic and sclerotic, but because it has to negotiate a long series of contentious issues. Second, considering Britain's long history of championing openness and free trade, coupled with the economic struggles it will face in a post-Brexit world, who can seriously argue that issues like the environment and small farmers will be a negotiating priority?

We are heading for TTIP on steroids. Contrary to the hopes of some Leave supporters, Brexit might save Europe from TTIP, but not Britain.

*


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> "*We are heading for TTIP on steroids" *


Here's hoping.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> oh yeah , I forgot . The govermnemt are lying bastards.


The government didn't warn us. They have been the biggest champions of TTIP in the EU. Nothing to stop them now.


----------



## MollySmith

The more I read about the economics and TTIP, the more I have an irritating thought about Farage and his offshore interests. I don't know what it is but that man must have something to gain.


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> I don't know what it is but that man must have something to gain.


I do hope so. Time's person of the year for 2016 is already in the bag I would think. A knighthood would be appropriate too, though I don't know if that would float his boat.

His own net worth is reportedly rather modest but that doesn't seem to be his motivation anyway. Just the satisfaction of being one of the most effective and courageous change agents of modern times will likely suffice for one so competent and self-assured.


----------



## kimthecat

@Satori Are we in the same universe?


----------



## MollySmith

deleted


----------



## Satori

kimthecat said:


> @Satori Are we in the same universe?


Doubt it. I just popped my head through the wormhole to share my wisdom..... like endless rain into a paper cup.


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> which does make you wonder why we've all had to endure the pain for the last few years.


Speak for yourself.

We popped into our local garden centre for a bite of lunch today. The cafeteria there does nothing fancy, just good fresh simple fare but the prices are extraordinary, imo. Sandwiches are £10, a baked potato £7. It seats 900 people and we had to wait to get a seat at 2pm on a wet weekday.

Let's not start believing that the pf gc whinge-fest is a reflection of 'we all'. Austerity is a left wing media con. We all know it never really happened.


----------



## Jobeth

Maybe austerity just didn't impact on those within a certain wealth bracket? I know it has made no difference to me, but that doesn't mean I don't believe it has impacted on others.


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


>


Just so that we get a fuller picture, can you express those figures as a percentage of UK GDP and a percentage of EU (27) GDP?

The 'they need us more than we need them' mantra is fine - Farage even quoted it while he was insulting the MEPs with whom we have to negotiate the other day - but only if we are both the same size, which of course we are not.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Just so that we get a fuller picture, can you express those figures as a percentage of UK GDP and a percentage of EU (27) GDP?
> 
> The 'they need us more than we need them' mantra is fine - Farage even quoted it while he was insulting the MEPs with whom we have to negotiate the other day - but if we are both the same size, but of course we are not.


I was cringing watching him address those MEPs. Farage is a total embarrassment - he has helped drag this country into the gutter. God I've never been more ashamed to be British.

What a moron!


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> That's as may be. But even DC insisted that it would be 'years' until Turkey join. So by saying that, he absolutely agreed that it would be a bad thing for the EU.


It _will_ be years until Turkey join. They've opened 1 more chapter, as they said they would.

The story in the paper was supposed to show how duplicitous was the assurance that Turkey would not quickly join, and to create the impression that there is some sort of behind-the-scenes fast track to exactly that. Neither is factual.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Listening to a farmer who voted out, saying he expects our government to pay him the same subsidy as the EU gave him.
Now that made me laugh


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> Listening to a farmer who voted out, saying he expects our government to pay him the same subsidy as the EU gave him.
> Now that made me laugh


Another deluded soul lol

And look at this - Britains fishermen warned brexit wont mean greater catches - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ill-not-mean-greater-catches?CMP=share_btn_tw Oops.

I can't think of a single thing the brexit camp were honest about lol


----------



## Honeys mum

CZECH OUT: President calls for EU referendum as union crumbles | World | News | Daily Express


Tony Blair: I wouldn't write us out of Europe yet | UK | News | Daily Express


----------



## Happy Paws2

I still can't believe how many people fell for their lies.


----------



## havoc

The referendum asked only one question - do you want to stay or leave. The campaigns concentrated on the NHS, immigration etc. Nobody ever said the question and the campaign 'issues' were linked in any way - and they weren't. They were not policies or election promises - something made very clear within hours of a leave victory. I'll be delighted if farmers continue to be supported and the NHS gets an extra £10 billion a year - we have to wait and see.


----------



## CuddleMonster

havoc said:


> The referendum asked only one question - do you want to stay or leave. The campaigns concentrated on the NHS, immigration etc. Nobody ever said the question and the campaign 'issues' were linked in any way - and they weren't. They were not policies or election promises - something made very clear within hours of a leave victory. I'll be delighted if farmers continue to be supported and the NHS gets an extra £10 billion a year - we have to wait and see.


Oh? If the campaign issues and the referendum question were not 'linked in any way' then why were the two sides producing leaflets about these campaign issues to 'help' us decide which way to vote? All the leaflets I received from both sides were along the lines of 'vote this way because of...........(a list of reasons including employment, economy, immigration, NHS etc)'.


----------



## havoc

You never had the chance to vote on any of those issues. You only answered one question - stay or leave. Those who wished to influence you could, and did, say anything to try and persuade you to vote the way they wanted. Unlike an election those making the claims will never be held accountable.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> You never had the chance to vote on any of those issues. You only answered one question - stay or leave. Those who wished to influence you could, and did, say anything to try and persuade you to vote the way they wanted. Unlike an election those making the claims will never be held accountable.


Well they might be. Boris already has, and Gove and Leadsom told some whoppers to get where they are, so hopefully they will be too.

As for the one question we answered .. what exactly does 'Leave' mean? Hopefully no-one voted for it without knowing what they were voting for; that would be a bit daft. wouldn't it?


----------



## Colliebarmy

CuddleMonster said:


> Oh? If the campaign issues and the referendum question were not 'linked in any way' then why were the two sides producing leaflets about these campaign issues to 'help' us decide which way to vote? All the leaflets I received from both sides were along the lines of 'vote this way because of...........(a list of reasons including employment, economy, immigration, NHS etc)'.


I was disgusted with the government for choosing to support either vote, they should have presented a balanced view of remain AND leave options

they pushed too hard and and the branch flew back and smacked them in the face....


----------



## havoc

I find the whole thing an interesting exercise now. Elected politicians are there to represent the electorate and if your local MP happens to be in opposition you don't expect them to back government policy - so, if there is a Parliamentary vote should individual MPs vote as their area did or according to their individual preference? Should they truly represent their electorate?


----------



## Satori

Colliebarmy said:


> I was disgusted with the government for choosing to support either vote, they should have presented a balanced view of remain AND leave options
> 
> they pushed too hard and and the branch flew back and smacked them in the face....


Me too. Cameron's behaviour throughout this fiasco was despicable. Both he and Corbyn fouled this up. Cameron tried to coerce his cabinet into a party line and, despite gagging dissenters and withdrawing civil service support from them, failed utterly. Corbyn, seeing a Tory weakness made a big play about Labour having a united position, which it actually never had outside the PLP elites. Both of them should have STFU and stayed out of debate altogether.

At the end of the day, the remain campaign was de facto massively more resourced because Caneron took it over from Stuart Rose and threw taxpayers money at it,......and yet still he lost.

Personally, the campaigns didn't influence my vote in any way nor do I know anyone so stupid that they were so influenced.


----------



## Lurcherlad

One thing that was certain if we stayed in, was more of the same. 

The majority of us preferred a period of uncertainty to that!


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="Satori, post: 1064584525, member:

Personally, the campaigns didn't influence my vote in any way nor do I know anyone so stupid that they were so influenced.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. You can't persuade a strong Tory to vote Labour and vice versa.

It's an unfortunate fact many did take the advice of the press and were able to recount the basics of the Farage speeches in parrot fashion. (as BJ did). This is not a criticism of all Leave voters, I certainly understand what you are saying and respect you for doing so.

Sad to think had The Sun ran a front page urging it's readers to vote Remain they would have won it, many of their readers appear unable to think for themselves.


----------



## havoc

So what we can say with some degree of confidence is that this country is run by The Sun - that's not exactly news though is it


----------



## Arnie83

Lurcherlad said:


> One thing that was certain if we stayed in, was *more of the same. *
> 
> The majority of us preferred a period of uncertainty to that!


What does that mean, precisely?


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> I was disgusted with the government for choosing to support either vote, they should have presented a balanced view of remain AND leave options
> 
> they pushed too hard and and the branch flew back and smacked them in the face....





Satori said:


> Me too. Cameron's behaviour throughout this fiasco was despicable. Both he and Corbyn fouled this up. Cameron tried to coerce his cabinet into a party line and, despite gagging dissenters and withdrawing civil service support from them, failed utterly. Corbyn, seeing a Tory weakness made a big play about Labour having a united position, which it actually never had outside the PLP elites. Both of them should have STFU and stayed out of debate altogether.
> 
> At the end of the day, the remain campaign was de facto massively more resourced because Caneron took it over from Stuart Rose and threw taxpayers money at it,......and yet still he lost.
> 
> Personally, the campaigns didn't influence my vote in any way nor do I know anyone so stupid that they were so influenced.


I would have been disgusted if the government had not advised us how to vote, since they have a great deal of expertise at hand to advise on what is best for the country, following which advice is their whole raison d'etre.

On the other hand I remain disgusted that they put something this important to a referendum in the first place, and for exactly the same reason.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> It _will_ be years until Turkey join. They've opened 1 more chapter, as they said they would.
> 
> The story in the paper was supposed to show how duplicitous was the assurance that Turkey would not quickly join, and to create the impression that there is some sort of behind-the-scenes fast track to exactly that. Neither is factual.


I'm not talking about the potential fasttracking, I'm saying that DC who wanted us to stay in the EU thought it would be bad if Turkey joined.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Arnie83 said:


> I would have been disgusted if the government had not advised us how to vote


This was a referendum of the people, a free vote, our government would have exploited the result be it stay or go, look where their actions have landed us, the 2 political parties in disarray, leadership crumbling, voids between each section...

No sitting government has the right to lead voters by the nose except at a General Election.

As I said, HMG's stance that we should all vote stay might have been the very reason more voted leave, that and all the scare stories


----------



## Colliebarmy

Arnie83 said:


> What does that mean, precisely?


Quite simply that a bitter pill now for serious pain relief later

Pity we cant just walk away on the spot


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> Listening to a farmer who voted out, saying he expects our government to pay him the same subsidy as the EU gave him.
> Now that made me laugh


 Oh dear ,I hope this doesn't put him out of business. how much less will he receive ?


----------



## Colliebarmy

kimthecat said:


> Oh dear ,I hope this doesn't put him out of business. how much less will he receive ?


years ago we lived in Wales, sheep were a currency, and cheques not crossed could be traded meaning transactions could avoid a paper trail and HMRC might not get wind of exactly who had what and where, subsidies were based on some very vague accounting, rumour had it that farmers shunted sheep around to get them counted twice for extra subsidies, then.......rumours of a new satellite that could count sheep in fields caused a major panic and sizeable reduction in the actual/declared sheep population............


----------



## kimthecat

@Colliebarmy I feel sorry for the dairy framers being held to ransom by the supermarkets , they have put farmers out of business.


----------



## MollySmith

"I think maybe it's time to have a little word about democracy.

I appreciate that feelings are running high but I think some people are perhaps waving the wrong end of a very splintery stick about what democracy means. So let's start by sorting out what it DOESN'T mean.

_Democracy isn't a game of Monopoly. It isn't like a football match. It's not about winners and losers. If your team lost their match then that's tough I understand, but it doesn't result in uncertainty_

Democracy is not consequence-free.

_Democracy is where decisions are taken by officials who are elected by the people, who are held accountable by the people, who step up and understand the complexities that the rest of us cannot have sight of. And then we can ditch them if they mess up_.

But that's not what happened.

_This decision was taken by people who were told to IGNORE selected educated experts (I have posted letters and warnings from A.C.Grayling, Stephen Hawkings and many others). In a democratic situation, someone would face the consequences._

Democracy does not mean that you have no responsibility for your decisions. If you pressed the red button even though there were lots of big signs all around saying 'DO NOT PRESS THE RED BUTTON OR BAD STUFF WILL HAPPEN!' - well then you have the democratic right to press the button.

But I do not have to respect your democratic choice to press the button. I can think that you were wrong to press it, and all the bad consequences that stem from that for me and my country and my family - I can say that I do not want to pay the price for your reckless button pressing. It's not just your own head you stuck in the microwave oven all wrapped in foil and made it explode. It was lots of things I liked a lot before you made splatter all over the walls of the kitchen. I will not help you scrape them off.

And most of all, and this is very very important, I do not have to accept a decision just because it is democratic. Don't get me started on all the things that were set into law by the democratic process.

Apartheid. The Iraq War, Section 28. I thought those decisions were wrong. The decision to place missiles at Greenham Common was democratic. And wrong.

The democratic right you exercised was to dismantle our membership of the EU. I think that was wrong. The democratic right I have is to protest and seek to change that decision through all the democratic means that a democratic society has to offer. This referendum result doesn't trump anything. It's not the last word.

I certainly am not in any frame of mind to help you in the process of destroying all the things I value so much.

In interests of pulling together? Well we aren't together. Our aims are not the same. I don't think what has been sent hurtling down the hill can be fixed by an injection of positive thinking and cheery optimism.

And in the end it doesn't matter if I can change the decision, or if it's likely. The important thing is that I fight against it. The thing about protest is that it is powerful in ways that putting your X in a box can't really match. The power of protest is the power of solidarity and the shared power to not feel overwhelmed by - in this case - the daily grind of racist and xenophobic rhetoric.

You had a choice to make, and I have the choice to accept it or not.

Protest is not whining. Protest is a democratic right"

*Edited to show in italics my alts and indented to show it's a quote with a source as.

https://inthelastfiveyears.wordpress.com/2016/06/26/i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/

*​


----------



## kimthecat

Yes that's true , protest is a democratic right . A demo is happening right now in London .

ETA I'd like to add *peaceful* protest . Points need to be made but Its sad that often demos become nasty or bullying . Tory scum was a term bandied about after the last election and it shouldn't be that people who voted Leave keep quiet about it for fear of being labeled. That's not democracy.

@cheekyscrip That awkward moment when you've liked a post and then the OP adds more !


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> Quite simply that a bitter pill now for serious pain relief later
> 
> Pity we cant just walk away on the spot


Yes, but 'more of the same' and 'pain relief later' are just phrases without any substance. More of the same what? Pain relief from what?


----------



## havoc

I do think quite a few of those older people who voted to leave think we can turn the clock back 40 years and are looking to recreate a UK which doesn't exist. They are the generation with some frame of reference regarding the difference but the world isn't the same place, the EU isn't the same and this country isn't the same as it was when we joined.


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> I do think quite a few of those older people who voted to leave think we can turn the clock back 40 years and are looking to recreate a UK which doesn't exist. They are the generation with some frame of reference regarding the difference but the world isn't the same place, the EU isn't the same and this country isn't the same as it was when we joined.


The change is not always for the better.
Nothing much happened ss yet. Some companies contemplate leaving.
Interest rates cut. No surplus predicted for 2019/20.

I think the change, sadly, will bring new problems without solving the old ones.

Uncertainty might be replaced by rather harsh reality .
Culture and science would definitely suffer.


----------



## Satori

havoc said:


> So what we can say with some degree of confidence is that this country is run by The Sun - that's not exactly news though is it


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> Well we aren't together. Our aims are not the same.


Ain't that the truth.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> This decision was taken by people who were told to IGNORE experts.


But not all the "experts" agreed.

One thing I think we can agree on is that at the moment both sides of our government are running around like headless chickens and need to get their act together.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> But not all the "experts" agreed.
> 
> One thing I think we can agree on is that at the moment both sides of our government are running around like headless chickens and need to get their act together.


Yes, I agree and I have edited the post to show whom I meant in terms of experts. Thanks, it's a better post for your observation


----------



## MollySmith

Arnie83 said:


> Yes, but 'more of the same' and 'pain relief later' are just phrases without any substance. More of the same what? Pain relief from what?


Ah, you're also tired of these empty phrases  Me too!


----------



## Colliebarmy

kimthecat said:


> @Colliebarmy I feel sorry for the dairy framers being held to ransom by the supermarkets , they have put farmers out of business.


Who demands lower and lower prices?

the consumer


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> Ah, you're also tired of these empty phrases  Me too!


Aye. Some folk can talk empty phrases 'til the cows come home.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Financial forecasts are as accurate as weather forecasts

i.e. useless

Osbourne wont be in the job much longer


----------



## Satori

Colliebarmy said:


> Who demands lower and lower prices?
> 
> the consumer


Not me. I'd much rather pay a fair price for a decent product from a business I can trust.

In general though, I guess you are right. People get the high street they deserve.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Yes, I agree and I have edited the post to show whom I meant in terms of experts. Thanks, it's a better post for your observation


Ok will check that out .


----------



## Arnie83

MollySmith said:


> Ah, you're also tired of these empty phrases  Me too!


Like Take Back Control, and Make Britain Great Again. Yes I quickly grew tired of empty soundbite appeals that avoid the need for facts or plans.


----------



## Colliebarmy




----------



## Zaros

Colliebarmy said:


>


_YouTube is merely the host for some of the most absurd outpourings of a mentally crippled and doomed species._


----------



## kimthecat

Reasons why Remainers voted to stay.

Better the Devil you know. 
I dont like change , I dont think one will be truly better than the other.
Because I'm a Labour supporter 
Because it could affect my husbands business
It could affect my job .


----------



## MollySmith

University of Liverpool

Professor Michael Dougan, the leading EU lawyer whose criticism of the referendum campaign’s “industrial dishonesty” went viral, has assessed the UK’s position following the vote to leave the EU.

He says that this is now a “political crisis that needs a political solution” and that the Government has a “constitutional responsibility to protect the national interest”, with Parliament the ultimate decision-maker on whether the UK follows through and leaves the European Union.


----------



## kimthecat

How can our Parliament be the ultimate decision maker and make a political when they are in disarray and we have no leaders?

If they weren't all fighting and stabbing each other in the back and had a plan in the first place , it would have been less of a mess .

If this was in the Gallows Humour thread , I'd be wondering where Guy Fawkes was.


----------



## samuelsmiles

MollySmith said:


> I think maybe it's time to have a little word about democracy.
> 
> I appreciate that feelings are running high but I think some people are perhaps waving the wrong end of a very splintery stick about what democracy means. So let's start by sorting out what it DOESN'T mean.
> 
> Democracy isn't a game of Monopoly. It isn't like a football match. It's not about winners and losers. If your team lost their match then that's tough I understand, but it doesn't result in uncertainty
> 
> Democracy is not consequence-free.
> 
> Democracy is where decisions are taken by officials who are elected by the people, who are held accountable by the people, who step up and understand the complexities that the rest of us cannot have sight of. And then we can ditch them if they mess up.
> 
> But that's not what happened.
> 
> This decision was taken by people who were told to IGNORE selected educated experts (I have posted letters and warnings from A.C.Grayling, Stephen Hawkings and many others). In a democratic situation, someone would face the consequences.
> 
> Democracy does not mean that you have no responsibility for your decisions. If you pressed the red button even though there were lots of big signs all around saying 'DO NOT PRESS THE RED BUTTON OR BAD STUFF WILL HAPPEN!' - well then you have the democratic right to press the button.
> 
> But I do not have to respect your democratic choice to press the button. I can think that you were wrong to press it, and all the bad consequences that stem from that for me and my country and my family - I can say that I do not want to pay the price for your reckless button pressing. It's not just your own head you stuck in the microwave oven all wrapped in foil and made it explode. It was lots of things I liked a lot before you made splatter all over the walls of the kitchen. I will not help you scrape them off.
> 
> And most of all, and this is very very important, I do not have to accept a decision just because it is democratic. Don't get me started on all the things that were set into law by the democratic process.
> 
> Apartheid. The Iraq War, Section 28. I thought those decisions were wrong. The decision to place missiles at Greenham Common was democratic. And wrong.
> 
> The democratic right you exercised was to dismantle our membership of the EU. I think that was wrong. The democratic right I have is to protest and seek to change that decision through all the democratic means that a democratic society has to offer. This referendum result doesn't trump anything. It's not the last word.
> 
> I certainly am not in any frame of mind to help you in the process of destroying all the things I value so much.
> 
> In interests of pulling together? Well we aren't together. Our aims are not the same. I don't think what has been sent hurtling down the hill can be fixed by an injection of positive thinking and cheery optimism.
> 
> And in the end it doesn't matter if I can change the decision, or if it's likely. The important thing is that I fight against it. The thing about protest is that it is powerful in ways that putting your X in a box can't really match. The power of protest is the power of solidarity and the shared power to not feel overwhelmed by - in this case - the daily grind of racist and xenophobic rhetoric.
> 
> You had a choice to make, and I have the choice to accept it or not.
> 
> Protest is not whining. Protest is a democratic right


Your words make quite a strong case for the remainers. Your words are now trending on the internet and much quoted.

Well put.


----------



## Colliebarmy

The protesters must be facists to refute a democratic vote and a majority verdict


----------



## kimthecat

samuelsmiles said:


> Your words make quite a strong case for the remainers. Your words are now trending on the internet and much quoted.
> 
> Well put.


yes, posted on the internet a few days ago. .

https://inthelastfiveyears.wordpress.com/2016/06/26/i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/


----------



## Satori

samuelsmiles said:


> Your words make quite a strong case for the remainers. Your words are now trending on the internet and much quoted.
> 
> Well put.


Feel free to enjoy the original version again. 

https://inthelastfiveyears.wordpress.com/2016/06/26/i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/


----------



## kimthecat

@Satori I edited my post .


----------



## Happy Paws2

Colliebarmy said:


> The protesters must be facists to refute a democratic vote and a majority verdict


I think the protest is more about the lies from both sides, so lots of people didn't really no what they were voting for. In that way they don't think it was a fair vote.


----------



## Satori

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.


----------



## kimthecat

@Satori


----------



## MollySmith

@emmaviolet I hope you're okay, I thought of you reading this and wondered if it might be useful. @CuddleMonster were you also struggling with friends or family who had voted differently to you as well - apologies if I have the wrong PF'er!

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/discussion/how-to-start-healing-those-brexit-family-rifts


----------



## MollySmith

samuelsmiles said:


> Your words make quite a strong case for the remainers. Your words are now trending on the internet and much quoted.
> 
> Well put.





kimthecat said:


> yes, posted on the internet a few days ago. .
> 
> https://inthelastfiveyears.wordpress.com/2016/06/26/i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/


It's sourced to a FB friend with a tiny bit of editing so not my words at all and I thought PF had styled to show this with indents and quotes but clearly this isn't possible on my iPad.

It's been edited to show this as I don't believe in plagiarism.


----------



## Satori

kimthecat said:


> @Satori You're quick ! Could you delete my part of your post. Pretty please, ?
> It doesn't matter who wrote it , it is worth reading who ever wrote it.


Done.


----------



## samuelsmiles

MollySmith said:


> It's sourced to a FB friend with a tiny bit of editing from me for sense and grammar, so not my words at all. I'm not sure where she's copied it from or if she has written them herself.


Oh, ok - thanks for clarifying. So you didn't write it and your facebook friend _probably _didn't write it.

No probs - It gave me food for thought anyway.


----------



## MollySmith

samuelsmiles said:


> Oh, ok - thanks for clarifying. So you didn't write it and your facebook friend _probably _didn't write it.
> 
> No probs - It gave me food for thought anyway.


I'll find out - she's a journalist and writer (and a fire eater) so she may well have.


----------



## kimthecat

@MollySmith Perhaps its best to clarify at the time of posting , if you copied from an author , they might not have liked the fact that you changed it, and in some cases it could be be copyrighted .


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Perhaps its best to clarify at the time of posting , if you copied from an author , they might not have liked the fact that you changed it or in some cases it could be be copyrighted .


Indeed. She's been asked as she was opening inviting sharing. All quotes I attribute to source unlike a few posters on here - it's a bug bear of mine (too long studying Harvard referencing and working closely with permission clearing). Thank for the link to the source, that's great.


----------



## havoc

_Reasons why Remainers voted to stay.

Better the Devil you know. 
I dont like change , I dont think one will be truly better than the other.
Because I'm a Labour supporter 
Because it could affect my husbands business
It could affect my job ._

A great portion of this thread is given over to those who voted leave complaining at their motives being assumed and combined. Not a single one of the reasons given above is why I voted to remain.


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> _Reasons why Remainers voted to stay.
> 
> Better the Devil you know.
> I dont like change , I dont think one will be truly better than the other.
> Because I'm a Labour supporter
> Because it could affect my husbands business
> It could affect my job ._
> 
> A great portion of this thread is given over to those who voted leave complaining at their motives being assumed and combined. Not a single one of the reasons given above is why I voted to remain.


 Sorry i should have made it clear these are the reasons the people i know gave me ,

Top one sister
then 
niece
BIL
cousins daughter 
nephew.


----------



## Colliebarmy

kimthecat said:


> Reasons why Remainers voted to stay.
> 
> Better the Devil you know.
> I dont like change , I dont think one will be truly better than the other.
> Because I'm a Labour supporter
> Because it could affect my husbands business
> It could affect my job .


It could affect my house value....PMSL


----------



## MollySmith

Extreme protesting - we take it _very_ seriously in these parts

http://www.varsity.co.uk/news/10484


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> It's sourced to a FB friend with a tiny bit of editing so not my words at all and I thought PF had styled to show this with indents and quotes but clearly this isn't possible on my iPad.
> 
> It's been edited to show this as I don't believe in plagiarism.


----------



## MollySmith

havoc said:


> _Reasons why Remainers voted to stay.
> 
> Better the Devil you know.
> I dont like change , I dont think one will be truly better than the other.
> Because I'm a Labour supporter
> Because it could affect my husbands business
> It could affect my job ._
> 
> A great portion of this thread is given over to those who voted leave complaining at their motives being assumed and combined. Not a single one of the reasons given above is why I voted to remain.


None of my reasons are there either.


----------



## samuelsmiles

MollySmith said:


> It's sourced to a FB friend with a tiny bit of editing so not my words at all and I thought PF had styled to show this with indents and quotes but clearly this isn't possible on my iPad.
> 
> *It's been edited to show this as I don't believe in plagiarism*.


Phew - yes and dishonesty. We'll leave that to the politicians.


----------



## CuddleMonster

kimthecat said:


> Reasons why Remainers voted to stay.
> 
> Better the Devil you know.
> I dont like change , I dont think one will be truly better than the other.
> Because I'm a Labour supporter
> Because it could affect my husbands business
> It could affect my job .


None of these were my reasons for voting either.



MollySmith said:


> @emmaviolet I hope you're okay, I thought of you reading this and wondered if it might be useful. @CuddleMonster were you also struggling with friends or family who had voted differently to you as well - apologies if I have the wrong PF'er!
> 
> http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/discussion/how-to-start-healing-those-brexit-family-rifts


@MollySmith thank you so much for thinking of me! It's a really interesting article. It's true that a couple of friends were very upset with me for voting differently to them, but we've managed to clear the air and I think things are going to be ok given a little time. But this article has some useful ideas on what will help/hinder. I think one friendship has gone completely, but that's more because her treatment of other people has opened my eyes to what she is really like & I don't want a friend who can behave like that to others!


----------



## MollySmith

CuddleMonster said:


> None of these were my reasons for voting either.
> 
> @MollySmith thank you so much for thinking of me! It's a really interesting article. It's true that a couple of friends were very upset with me for voting differently to them, but we've managed to clear the air and I think things are going to be ok given a little time. But this article has some useful ideas on what will help/hinder. I think one friendship has gone completely, but that's more because her treatment of other people has opened my eyes to what she is really like & I don't want a friend who can behave like that to others!


I am so pleased to hear you're okay (and that it was you and I remembered correctly!). I am sorry that you have lost a friend, that's hard but you have wise words. I've lost a few friends over my childloss and I always think that says more about them than me. Take care


----------



## jenny armour

I did vote to leave, but I feel a lot of people voted to leave because over the years people were not allowed to complain about immigration without it sounding rascist and this was their way of making their voice heard by voting


----------



## cheekyscrip

jenny armour said:


> I did vote to leave, but I feel a lot of people voted to leave because over the years people were not allowed to complain about immigration without it sounding rascist and this was their way of making their voice heard by voting


I think that the issue of immigration wad wrongly prescribed to EU only.
EU could not be blamed for illegal immigration. Or immigration from other continents . Or Commonwealth.

Most EU people are of the same race and Christians or atheists...
Nothing to do with radicalisation, terrorism and so on.
As someone told me " All my neighbourhood turned black!"

But what it has to do with EU?

UK has border control anyway?
How bogus schools used just to get visa are fault of EU?

People had right to be unhappy about many things.
Sadly EU was made the scapegoat
Do you really think that illegal immigrants do not come to Norway etc.?
People vented their frustration.
Just wonder with no EU to blame will.anger not be directed against all foreigners?
Students, tourists can be victims too. Spouses married to British and their children.

Some expect that all immigrants will be deported asap Brexit happens.
And if not...

This will not happen. 
So what would happen next?
Asking as British by marriage, most of my adult life on British territory.


----------



## KittenKong

Absolutely, I'm sure some will have believed "Leave" would mean asking immigrants to leave........
This is not just a UK "problem". Look at the amount of British immigrants in Spain for example? Perhaps they should be asked to leave too.....


----------



## Milliepoochie

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely, I'm sure sure some will have believed "Leave" would mean asking immigrants to leave........
> This is not just a UK "problem". Look at the amount of British immigrants in Spain for example? Perhaps they should be asked to leave too.....


Think of the chaos that would cause all the pensioners coming home and working migrants who pay into the system / keep savings here / own properties leaving...

Could make for a very interesting future.

I know migrant workers won't physically be thrown out but emotionally they may well be... Why stay in a country where it's clear a proportion of the population doesn't want you there? *and yes before anyone says it I know not all leave voters think this and are racist*


----------



## Milliepoochie

jenny armour said:


> I did vote to leave, but I feel a lot of people voted to leave because over the years people were not allowed to complain about immigration without it sounding rascist and this was their way of making their voice heard by voting


Immigration in general or immigration specifically from the EU?

If immigration in general then what a shame they didn't do enough research to realise the majority of migrant workers are paying in more than they take out.. Just like the many British born workers who live and work freely all over the EU.

The Immigration crisis has been used as a scapegoat to increase anger and bad feeling amongst the majority. A way of getting easy votes
from people who are rightly worried about the large influx of uncontrolled migration from Syria / Turkey which we saw all over the news. Which is a complete different issue to EU migrants.


----------



## Satori

Colliebarmy said:


>


That just says it all really. Brilliant.


----------



## Satori

Colliebarmy said:


> The protesters must be facists to refute a democratic vote and a majority verdict


Bring back Boris and his water cannons.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Indeed. She's been asked as she was opening inviting sharing. All quotes I attribute to source unlike a few posters on here - it's a bug bear of mine (too long studying Harvard referencing and working closely with permission clearing). Thank for the link to the source, that's great.


Sometimes its enough just indicate your source such as Twitter if its an opinion . If someone is stating facts its more important to give a named source. You had to give the name of the publishers if you listed a book, rather tedious !

The website doesn't give a clue to who the journalist is or at least I cant see anything.


----------



## havoc

Colliebarmy said:


> It could affect my house value....PMSL


I presume you mean negatively. I do hope so - I get to buy more rental properties at knock down prices.


----------



## noushka05

Does anyone else feel like this? lol


----------



## kimthecat

That's our MPs !

_ Woe ,Woe and Thrice Woe !_


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> That's our MPs !
> 
> _ Woe ,Woe and Thrice Woe !_


There's a fair few I'd like to throw off a cliff


----------



## kimthecat

@noushka05


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Does anyone else feel like this? lol
> 
> View attachment 276093


Nah. More like this....


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Nah. More like this....
> 
> View attachment 276125


You ruthless swine!

:Hilarious


----------



## Colliebarmy

The first truly democratic vote i can recall (using a PR system too) and it rips the country in 2.....how ironic

as for politicians, its a good job we arent at war, Corbyn would wave a white flag, Cameron would make another European deal

*"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep"*


----------



## havoc

_its a good job we arent at war,_
Too true - we don't have any armed forces left.


----------



## emmaviolet

MollySmith said:


> @emmaviolet I hope you're okay, I thought of you reading this and wondered if it might be useful. @CuddleMonster were you also struggling with friends or family who had voted differently to you as well - apologies if I have the wrong PF'er!
> 
> http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/discussion/how-to-start-healing-those-brexit-family-rifts


Thank you MollySmith, for thinking of me. I posted earlier, I've decided to bury my head in the sand and step away from it all. I love tennis, so absorbing myself in that and life. Trying not to think about it, when I see the news, I'm laughing at it all. I have to say, my health has already improved by doing this, so I will keep it up for a good while.
That article is really great though, really useful.

Thanks again, for thinking of me.


----------



## MilleD

havoc said:


> I presume you mean negatively. I do hope so - I get to buy more rental properties at knock down prices.


Me too, will help offset that pesky stamp duty


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> The first truly democratic vote i can recall (using a PR system too) and it rips the country in 2.....how ironic


PR? What is proportional about a Stay / Leave choice?

At risk of sounding like sour grapes I certainly wouldn't call it truly democratic. When both sides are obscuring the 'facts' and when there are bare-faced lies being used to con the voters that isn't democracy; it's an abuse of democracy.


----------



## KittenKong

The Advertising Standards Authority states all advertisements must be legal, decent, honest and truthful.

Pity that ruling doesn't apply to politicians!


----------



## Blackadder

Arnie83 said:


> When both sides are obscuring the 'facts' and when there are bare-faced lies being used to con the voters that isn't democracy; it's an abuse of democracy.


Kinda like a General Election then!


----------



## havoc

BlackadderUK said:


> Kinda like a General Election then!


Kinda not like a General election at all - we get to hold those responsible for the lies accountable in a General election.


----------



## kimthecat

It clever in the sense that it doesn't say they will spend all of the £350m on the NHS
It doesn't actually say how much they will spend.You read it and assume it will be all of it .


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> It clever in the sense that it doesn't say they will spend all of the £350m on the NHS
> It doesn't actually say how much they will spend.You read it and assume it will be all of


No. You may have read it and assumed. I remember posting on this very subject before the vote.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> The Advertising Standards Agency states all advertisements must be legal, decent, honest and truthful.


Advertisements - those things we see plastered all over buses. Same rules definitely didn't apply


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> No. You may have read it and assumed. I remember posting on this very subject before the vote.


I dont think you're getting my point,though I cant actually remember what you said , its a long thread !

It's about adverts and how crafty they can be . Its what they imply and relying on peoples assumptions.
Nowhere does it say how much they will actually spend on the NHS .


----------



## havoc

Nowhere in the campaign did they ever say what 'they' would actually do. It was all about what 'we' could do though 'we' will have very little say.


----------



## Blackadder

havoc said:


> Kinda not like a General election at all - we get to hold those responsible for the lies accountable in a General election.


In what way? After 5 years the Government may be voted out of office... is that really accountable?


----------



## MollySmith

BlackadderUK said:


> Kinda like a General Election then!


I think Cameron said he would put it to public vote in February and then the date was announced in April - not 100% sure of this). A party may well have much longer to prepare their manifestos for a General Election and it's an all party effort. I posted the facts and figures comparing the voting for the Scottish Independence vote and the huge document that took 10 months to complete and publish. It's 3/4 bigger than any literature from either side in this EU vote.

But the idea of the manifesto is, I suppose, similar. A manifesto isn't legally binding and they merely indicative of ideology and philosophy. They give an idea of how the politicians in each party will behave on some issues and what they can't do. Unfortunately the latter was missing on all sides in the EU vote so we only saw the empty promises. I try very hard to avoid any media stuff going on in a General Election and think about what my local MPs have done and read the manifestos, and vote on this alone. It was impossible in the EU vote as the information published 'the manifesto' was pointless and even with my lame grasp of maths (remedial for it at school!) I could see that the figures didn't add up.

I would like to know if anyone could/has report/ed the bus advert to the ASA!!


----------



## kimthecat

BlackadderUK said:


> In what way? After 5 years the Government may be voted out of office... is that really accountable?


 Also, the laws they make within that time , can be difficult to get them changed by the next party .


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> It clever in the sense that it doesn't say they will spend all of the £350m on the NHS
> It doesn't actually say how much they will spend.You read it and assume it will be all of it .


As you say, it didn't promise anything. I read it and assumed nothing


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> Also, the laws they make within that time , can be difficult to get them changed by the next party


Why?


----------



## noushka05

How Brexit is already stopping NHS patients receiving life-extending drugs < heartbreaking http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...uld-denied-life-8334812#ICID=sharebar_twitter

Thousands of patients could be denied life-extending drugs and treatment in wake of Brexit

*NHS bosses are delaying funding for vital medicines, affecting cancer patients, HIV patients and stroke victims *


----------



## noushka05

*Brexit's Brutal Blow to the NHS*
*








*

"I'm sorry. I'm just so sorry."

It's 8am. Two junior doctors, one English, the other Italian, embrace in tears on the steps outside their hospital. We've saved lives together, lost patients together, run cardiac arrests, sought to comfort grieving families, seen patients make miraculous recoveries, witnessed death at its most unforgiving and ugly - all of it together. But as of last Friday morning, while one of us remains fully entitled to be a doctor in the NHS, the other may be stripped of her right to live and work here.

Brexit is a brutal blow for one of the most cosmopolitan of UK workforces. The NHS is an extraordinary melting pot of nationalities, and all the richer for it. On my ward alone, the doctors and nurses making up the team are British, Spanish, Nigerian, Portugese, Canadian, Kiwi, French and Filipino. Overall, up to 35% of health professionals come from outside the UK1, with 55,000 of the NHS England's 1.2 million staff being citizens of other EU countries. Small wonder one of the UK's most senior economists, Stephen Nickell of the Office for Budget Responsibility, has stated that the NHS would be "in dire straits" without migrant workers.

Much has been made of the ephemerality of the Leave campaign's £350million a week promise to the NHS in the event of Brexit - a pledge that lasted barely an hour beyond the referendum result before Nigel Farage dismissed it as a 'mistake'. Worse, our underfunded NHS now faces potentially catastrophic financial consequences of Brexit. But the most immediate threat to the NHS is not financial but human: the risk that members of its most precious, most undervalued asset - its

workforce - may now wonder what on earth they are doing here.

Already, nursing and medicine in the UK are perilously understaffed. Every day, in every hospital, doctor and nursing rotas are riddled with gaps - unfilled slots - leaving patients exposed to dangerously overstretched staff. If patient safety matters, we simply cannot afford to lose any more doctors and nurses. Yet now, vast numbers of them have been made to feel unwelcome and unwanted: first by a campaign based on prejudice, propaganda and xenophobia, second, by the fact that the majority of voters actually embraced this narrative of fear.

We have a long and grubby history of politicians and newspaper editors exploiting Britons' love of the NHS to indulge in immigrant bashing. You know the drill. Why can't you get an appointment at your GP? Because hordes of migrants are clogging up the surgery. Why have you been denied your ground-breaking cancer drug? Because all those brazen 'health tourists' are screwing us out of scarce NHS resources.

The irony is, the NHS's job of caring makes it in one sense our most egalitarian institution. In death lies the ultimate equality and, when treating sick patients, you are only one step removed from that. Medicine transcends difference. Hearts still pump, blood still flows, whatever skin they're clothed in. My job is to help people, irrespective of race, religion, sexuality, nationality. When you lie before me in a hospital gown - vulnerable, frightened, disorientated, in pain - as your junior doctor I don't care if you are English, Spanish or Outer Mongolian. You could be a communist, a Scientologist, a Prime Minister, an axe murderer. You could even be Jeremy Hunt and still I would treat you the same.

Doctors, like nurses, treat one thing alone, the patient, the person in front of them. The values that infuse an NHS ward - kindness, tolerance, decency, humanity - should surely be writ large? I thought my country was inclusive, all-embracing. I've never felt more foreign. To my non-British colleagues, every one of you an asset to the NHS, I'm sorry, so sorry, please stay

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/rachel-clarke/brexit-nhs_b_10710928.html


----------



## noushka05




----------



## MoggyBaby

kimthecat said:


> It clever in the sense that it doesn't say they will spend all of the £350m on the NHS
> It doesn't actually say how much they will spend*.You read it and assume it will be all of it . *


Nope! Only people who can't be bothered to think about what they are reading, and the context in which the comment is being made, would 'assume' such a thing.

As I was told many years ago "to 'ASSUME' makes an Ass of U and Me".


----------



## noushka05

*'The leave campaign were guilty of dishonesty on an industrial scale'. 'The leave campaign conducted one of THE most dishonest campaigns this country has ever seen'*

*Brexit campaign 'criminally irresponsible', says legal academic*
*
Liverpool University professor says claims were 'at best misrepresentations and at worst outright deception'*

A leading legal academic has said the campaign for the UK to leave the EU was "criminally irresponsible", in a scathing assessment of how the referendum debate was played out.

Michael Dougan, professor of European law at the University of Liverpool, lambasted the Leave campaign's inability to define what Brexit would entail, which has led to uncertainty among financial markets and a 31-year-low for the pound sterling.

He said in a video posted on Facebook: "Leave conducted one of the most dishonest campaigns this country has ever seen.



"On virtually every major issue that was raised in this referendum debate Leave's arguments consisted of at best misrepresentations and at worst outright deception.

And by doing so - by normalising and legitimising this type of dishonesty as a primary tool to win votes, I'm afraid that Leave have inflicted quite untold damage on the quality of our national democracy."

Mr Dougan, who before the referendum attacked the Leave campaign's "industrial scale dishonesty" in a viral video, pointed to a number of inaccurate claims about £350m going to the NHS, the imminent accession of Turkey and the creation of an EU army.

He continued: "I'd expect that many of the people who voted Leave on the basis of some of the things we've talked about will come to regret that decision.

"But really I'm more fearful that many of the people who voted Leave genuinely believing they were going to get the things they'd been falsely promised are only going to end up feeling more disenfranchised, more marginalised, more angry.

"Around half the country is going to feel like democracy has let them down and that's a sad and really quite troubling outcome."

Endorsing calls for the Government to ignore the referendum result, Mr Dougan said there is a "constitutional responsibility to protect the national interest", with Parliament the ultimate decision-maker on whether the UK actually leaves the European Union.

Mr Dougan's pre-referendum video, seen by almost seven million Facebook viewers, apparently drew abuse from those who didn't agree with his position on Brexit.

He said suggestions he benefitted from EU funding were "completely untrue", adding: "I am an employee of the University of Liverpool and my entire salary is paid by the University of Liverpool and the University of Liverpool does not receive a penny of external funding in order to pay that salary."

In an out-of-office email response, he had earlier claimed to have been accused of being "paid by the European Commission" and having his "snout in the EU trough".

Mr Dougan, originally from Northern Ireland, wrote: "If you have sent me an abusive message, e.g. falsely claiming that I am paid by the European Commission / that I have my snout in the EU trough / that I am only worried about saving my own job / that you hope I get deported sooner rather than later, please do not be offended if I do not treat replying to your message as a priority.

"If you have sent me a threatening email, or one containing racist abuse, I will report it to the police."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...el-dougan-leave-campaign-latest-a7115316.html


----------



## kimthecat

MoggyBaby said:


> Nope! Only people who can't be bothered to think about what they are reading, and the context in which the comment is being made, would 'assume' such a thing.
> .


I dont think you're getting my point,

It's about adverts and how crafty they can be . Its what they imply and relying on peoples assumptions.
Nowhere does it say how much they will actually spend on the NHS .


----------



## MoggyBaby

kimthecat said:


> I dont think you're getting my point,
> 
> It's about adverts and how crafty they can be . Its what they imply and relying on peoples assumptions.
> Nowhere does it say how much they will actually spend on the NHS .


I see exactly the point you are making.

My point is that the adverts were truthful. They said the £350m 'could' be spent on the NHS, they didn't say it 'would' be spent there. The bus said 'Let's Fund our NHS' - it doesn't state we will spend every penny of the £350m on the NHS.

And if people actually DID think that, and didn't consider that there are other areas which also require funding, then they are the fools.


----------



## kimthecat

@MoggyBaby oh that's a relief , I was beginning to think I wasn't writing in English.


----------



## Jesthar

MoggyBaby said:


> I see exactly the point you are making.
> 
> My point is that the adverts were truthful. They said the £350m 'could' be spent on the NHS, they didn't say it 'would' be spent there. The bus said 'Let's Fund our NHS' - it doesn't state we will spend every penny of the £350m on the NHS.
> 
> And if people actually DID think that, and didn't consider that there are other areas which also require funding, then they are the fools.


On the other hand, the advert may also have caused people to believe we send £350m a week to Europe. Which we don't...


----------



## jenny armour

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely, I'm sure some will have believed "Leave" would mean asking immigrants to leave........
> This is not just a UK "problem". Look at the amount of British immigrants in Spain for example? Perhaps they should be asked to leave too.....


that may well happen eventually


----------



## kimthecat

Has any politician said that immigrants will be asked to leave?


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Has any politician said that immigrants will be asked to leave?


No I done think anyone did, but it just proves how thick some people are doesn't it.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Has any politician said that immigrants will be asked to leave?


Theresa May is now saying it can't be ruled out. Mainly to prevent an influx whilst we leave.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> No I done think anyone did, but it just proves how thick some people are doesn't it.


Sorry , I don't understand your post , I'm not sure which people you mean are thick ?


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> Theresa May is now saying it can't be ruled out. Mainly to prevent an influx whilst we leave.


I will check that , it doesn't make sense to me that they would chuck the people already here out to make room for the people that will come . ( if that's what she meant )


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Sorry , I don't understand your post , I'm not sure which people you mean are thick ?


that some people thought a leave vote means all immigrants should leave the country


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> I will check that , it doesn't make sense to me that they would chuck the people already here out to make room for the people that will come . ( if that's what she meant )


http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...nflux’-of-migrants/ar-AAi2xIi?ocid=spartanntp

So you don't have to search


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/theresa-may-refuses-to-rule-out-deportation-of-eu-nationals-living-in-uk-amid-fears-of-'influx'-of-migrants/ar-AAi2xIi?ocid=spartanntp
> 
> So you don't have to search


Cheers.
For those who can't open another browser -

Teresa May has refused to rule out the deportation of EU nationals living in Britain after the country leaves the European Union, amid fears that guaranteeing their rights at this stage could lead to a "huge influx" of migrants during the Brexit negotiation phase.

It comes as the Home Secretary, who has emerged as the clear frontrunner in the race to succeed David Cameron as Conservative leader, said today that although she wanted to "guarantee the position" of EU citizens currently living in the UK she admitted their future could be up for negotiation.

A source close to Ms May told _The Independent_: "She [Ms May] was saying it's unwise to promise right now that all EU nationals living in Britain should be able to stay indefinitely. The reason for that is if we did that the same rights would have to apply to any EU national who comes to Britain before we leave the EU.

"If we made that promise you could just see a huge influx…of EU nationals who would all want to come here while they have that chance."

The source also made clear that the issue was a "negotiating point". They added: "It would just be a bad negotiating position because we shouldn't guarantee the rights of EU nationals without having any guarantees the other way about British nationals living in EU members."


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> that some people thought a leave vote means all immigrants should leave the country


Those people think that immigrants should leave the country anyway ,even if we had voted Remain, t would have thought the same .

You said
"No I done think anyone did, but it just proves how thick some people are doesn't it."

So if you think no politician said it , then perhaps the ones that believed they would have to leave the country because they are immigrants could be considered thick too. I don't believe they are but some might think that .


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat I'm not taking the bait this time, you're not worth the bother.


----------



## kimthecat

@Happy Paws Its not bait , don't blame me for what you are saying and implying .
You might not realise that by saying that people are thick to believe that immigrants will have to leave the country , that includes *all *the people who believe that , not just the racists ones but those that are immigrants too.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

MilleD said:


> http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/theresa-may-refuses-to-rule-out-deportation-of-eu-nationals-living-in-uk-amid-fears-of-'influx'-of-migrants/ar-AAi2xIi?ocid=spartanntp
> 
> So you don't have to search


I think this is called make sure you are reading what you are reading .....the alleged quotes for Theresa May come from a (unknown, unnamed) source supposedly 'close to' Mrs May.

The words are the unknown, unnamed source's being paraphrased by a journalist ....gospel.

*A source close to Ms May told The Independent: "She [Ms May] was saying it's unwise to promise right now that all EU nationals living in Britain should be able to stay indefinitely. The reason for that is if we did that the same rights would have to apply to any EU national who comes to Britain before we leave the EU.
*
And again the unknown, unnamed sources words ....not Mrs Mays.
*"If we made that promise you could just see a huge influx…of EU nationals who would all want to come here while they have that chance."
*
What Mrs May actually said on the programme was -

*"What's important is there will be a negotiation here as to how we deal with that issue of people who are already here and who have established life here and Brits who have established a life in other countries within the European Union."*

J


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> The Advertising Standards Agency states all advertisements must be legal, decent, honest and truthful.
> !


Nor be misleading.



kimthecat said:


> It clever in the sense that it doesn't say they will spend all of the £350m on the NHS
> It doesn't actually say how much they will spend.You read it and assume it will be all of it . ]


Which was misleading!

EDIT- Advertising Standards Authority, not agency. Original post now corrected.
Very interesting website, well worth a look:

www.asa.org.uk


----------



## MilleD

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I think this is called make sure you are reading what you are reading .....the alleged quotes for Theresa May come from a (unknown, unnamed) source supposedly 'close to' Mrs May.
> 
> The words are the unknown, unnamed source's being paraphrased by a journalist ....gospel.
> 
> *A source close to Ms May told The Independent: "She [Ms May] was saying it's unwise to promise right now that all EU nationals living in Britain should be able to stay indefinitely. The reason for that is if we did that the same rights would have to apply to any EU national who comes to Britain before we leave the EU.
> *
> And again the unknown, unnamed sources words ....not Mrs Mays.
> *"If we made that promise you could just see a huge influx…of EU nationals who would all want to come here while they have that chance."
> *
> What Mrs May actually said on the programme was -
> 
> *"What's important is there will be a negotiation here as to how we deal with that issue of people who are already here and who have established life here and Brits who have established a life in other countries within the European Union."*
> 
> J


Isn't that just called the media?


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

MilleD said:


> Isn't that just called the media?


Absolutely. Which is what I was pointing out.



MilleD said:


> Theresa May is now saying it can't be ruled out. Mainly to prevent an influx whilst we leave.


In other words in was not Mrs May who was saying those things but an unknown, unnamed source being quoted by a journalist. So it's probably crap lol

Let's wait for the real statement .... unknown sources guessing what someone might be saying just create rumours.

J


----------



## kimthecat

What a thread! This could have broken the record for the longest thread PF.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Broken record ..... Yep!

Round and round we go .......


----------



## kimthecat

@Lurcherlad Like watching the whirly round thing while you wait for a webpage to load and singing The wheels on the bus go round and round .


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> kimthecat I'm not taking the bait this time, you're not worth the bother.


↑
BTW
I made a general post in no way aimed at you .

Kimthecat


> -Has any politician said that immigrants will be asked to leave?


Happy Paws


> -No I done think anyone did, but it just proves how thick some people are doesn't it.


You chose to respond. So who's baiting who?


----------



## KittenKong

Anyone else remember those "Labour Isn't Working" billboard posters erected during the 1979 General Election campaign?

Again they were very clever by depicting a huge dole queue, yet didn't state the Conservatives would actually do anything to reduce it. The impression it implied they would do... I won't bore you with the rest!

I never saw any billboard posters for the Leave nor Remain campaigns locally.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> I won't bore you with the rest!


Oh go on.


----------



## Arnie83

MoggyBaby said:


> I see exactly the point you are making.
> 
> My point is that the adverts were truthful. They said the £350m 'could' be spent on the NHS, they didn't say it 'would' be spent there. The bus said 'Let's Fund our NHS' - it doesn't state we will spend every penny of the £350m on the NHS.
> 
> And if people actually DID think that, and didn't consider that there are other areas which also require funding, then they are the fools.


Of course people DID think that! The Leave campaign counted on sufficient of them being taken in.

Frankly I can't believe that anyone would try to defend the explicit - it's not even implicit - dishonesty of that advert. 'Let's fund our NHS instead' can hardly be any clearer.

Put that together with the broadcasts on the TV showing Remain NHS with those swarthy people making stopping the nice old British lady getting treatment v. the Leave NHS with the nice old British lady being the only patient in the place and - although I'm not calling for it - you have quite good grounds for annulling the result. It was a shameful campaign.


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> Oh go on.


It would need its own thread that would probably exceed 100 posts!

Besides, I used that 1979 poster as another example of clever advertising. The past whether one thought it was good or bad cannot be undone.

I'm more interested in the present and future!


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Of course people DID think that! The Leave campaign counted on sufficient of them being taken in.
> 
> Frankly I can't believe that anyone would try to defend the explicit - it's not even implicit - dishonesty of that advert. 'Let's fund our NHS instead' can hardly be any clearer.
> 
> Put that together with the broadcasts on the TV showing Remain NHS with those swarthy people making stopping the nice old British lady getting treatment v. the Leave NHS with the nice old British lady being the only patient in the place and - although I'm not calling for it - you have quite good grounds for annulling the result. It was a shameful campaign.


 Yes , it was wrong ! but lets not forget the remain two people on the see saw one ,


----------



## KittenKong

Not defending it but is the above only encouraging people to register to vote?

I can see no reference to Remain on it, just "Operation Black Vote".

It's a horrible advert wherever it originated from and sends a very confusing message.


----------



## havoc

I agree but I don't like the use of stereotypes. I've been saved from falling down in a crowd by a very kind guy who looked very like the one on the right of that picture and he was in an 'ethnically diverse' group of friends so I have no reason to suppose he was a racist. I've also known some pretty narrow minded and ill tempered little old ladies of all backgrounds - I'm working my way towards being one myself


----------



## cheekyscrip

If campaign was based on blatant lies and seems the leaders of it are not happy to stand by it any more,

Maybe it is time for
PRODUCT RECALL

Brexit is faulty, cannot work, came without manual and dies not contain any 350 mln for NHS or for Welsh farmers.

People bought it and were cheated.
Have absolute right to return ot to.producers and demand compensation.


----------



## MiffyMoo

I find this interesting, but do bear in mind that it is only 1 poll. Basically, it's saying that even more people are now pro-Brexit than they were before the referendum.

View media item 76137


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Not defending it but is the above only encouraging people to register to vote?
> 
> I can see no reference to Remain on it, just "Operation Black Vote".


 yes that's true but we were talking about ad standards , in that sense its racist and should have been banned.


----------



## CuddleMonster

Most people don't read adverts thoroughly (or anything else) which is why these posters are so effective...the people who produce them know that the vast majority will assume what they want to assume from seeing them! Same with newspaper headlines - ever read an online newspaper and seen how most comments bear practically no relation to what the article actually says?!!


----------



## Arnie83

Clearly, we must get on with the negotiations, and then put the result to the British people in a referendum to see if they accept the outcome.


----------



## kimthecat

If I never see the word referendum again it will be too soon :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Clearly, we must get on with the negotiations, and then put the result to the British people in a referendum to see if they accept the outcome.


Only problem there is the press will probably still call on their readers to back leave.

From past experience I wonder if it's worth having any elections or referendums. They may as well consult The Sun, get their opinion and go along with it. Would save the country a fortune...


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Clearly, we must get on with the negotiations, and then put the result to the British people in a referendum to see if they accept the outcome.


But what if they don't?


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Noushka05:

You ruthless swine!

:Hilarious

/QUOTE
.
.
Interesting - why a swine? Sexist or chauvinist tendencies?
.
how & when did he lose his Ruth?... Death? Divorce? DeFOO?
Or did she just fade away wistfully, once she realized his sole passion was money & its acquisition?
.
Would he be 'better' with Ruth? --- is that better for others / us, or for him?
Must she be the same Ruth as before, or if she's deceased / irreconcilable, can it be a different Ruth?
Any why Ruth? - Why not Naomi, Krystal, Lahkshmi, Blythe, or Candace?
,
What does Ruth do for him, soften the sharp edges? -- Add another perspective? -- Other?
.
.
.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Yes , it was wrong ! but lets not forget the remain two people on the see saw one ,





KittenKong said:


> Not defending it but is the above only encouraging people to register to vote?
> 
> I can see no reference to Remain on it, just "Operation Black Vote".
> 
> It's a horrible advert wherever it originated from and sends a very confusing message.


Operation Black Vote is a charity and are an 'Organisation dedicated to enabling the African British and Asian British communities claim their places in European politics'. The poster was designed by Saatchi and Saatchi and it's actually compelling an estimated 30 per cent of the four million black and ethnic minority people who are eligible to vote in the UK are not yet on the electoral register, compared to around 15 per cent of the overall voting population.

Which makes sense if you look at the advert again - the balance of the see saw and her serene expression of power, yes? I think it's a great advert as it provokes discussion and that's the best form of advertising.

It's not a remain campaign , it's for the General Election 

Sol Campbell put on white face paint for another and they were designed to make you look. Here's a bit about the reasons behind it:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ong-reaction-that-was-the-point-10182604.html

Interestingly that man, again, Farage, called it "disgusting" and said the campaign group is "trying to divide society". Ironic


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Operation Black Vote is a charity and are an 'Organisation dedicated to enabling the African British and Asian British communities claim their places in European politics'. The poster was designed by Saatchi and Saatchi and it's actually compelling an estimated 30 per cent of the four million black and ethnic minority people who are eligible to vote in the UK are not yet on the electoral register, compared to around 15 per cent of the overall voting population.
> 
> Which makes sense if you look at the advert again - the balance of the see saw and her serene expression of power, yes? I think it's a great advert as it provokes discussion and that's the best form of advertising.
> 
> It's not a remain campaign , it's for the General Election
> 
> Sol Campbell put on white face paint for another and they were designed to make you look. Here's a bit about the reasons behind it:
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ong-reaction-that-was-the-point-10182604.html
> 
> Interestingly that man, again, Farage, called it "disgusting" and said the campaign group is "trying to divide society". Ironic


How do you think 'Operation White Vote' would go down?

Surely the whole premise behind the organisation is essentially racist as they discriminate on colour do they not?


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Operation Black Vote is a charity and are an 'Organisation dedicated to enabling the African British and Asian British communities claim their places in European politics'. The poster was designed by Saatchi and Saatchi and it's actually compelling an estimated 30 per cent of the four million black and ethnic minority people who are eligible to vote in the UK are not yet on the electoral register, compared to around 15 per cent of the overall voting population.
> 
> Which makes sense if you look at the advert again - the balance of the see saw and her serene expression of power, yes? I think it's a great advert as it provokes discussion and that's the best form of advertising.
> 
> It's not a remain campaign , it's for the General Election


Yes , its already been posted in this thread before ,
The best form of advertising is the advert that gets its message over to the right people not one that provokes discussion amongst arty farty lefties luvvies .  Its not a painting entered up at the Royal Academy summer Exhibition, Actually, it would have made a good exhibit. !

Sorry but whatever the message meant was to be, in my opinion it is reverse racism . Unfortunately , this is happening now , we see reverse sexism too, the ads on the telly with a dog pulling down a young mans swimming trunks and old women cackling at him . That wouldn't be allowed if it were the other way around.
I lived the 70s , the sexism and racism was dreadful but the idea was to fight for equal rights not this unbalanced "equality" .

There are racists who are nasty and will always be nasty and people who say things that are racist out of ignorance, fear or resentment and thanks to PCness they cant express those feelings or discuss it because they are accused of racism and they feel they are not being listened to.

ETA the Sol Campbell one is clever but white people get pilloried for "blacking up "


----------



## MollySmith

deleted


----------



## Jonescat

MiffyMoo said:


>


Dear Ipsos Mori
Aren't the figures supposed to add up to 100%? If your organisation is so stretched that no-one notices the presentation is wrong, if it doesn't check the figures before publication, and get the easy stuff right, why should I have faith that it actually managed to do the underlying calculations, or even collect the data, correctly? I expect it's a rounding error - and it perfectly echoes the current preoccupation with appearance over content. Honestly, it doesn't cost much to get someone else to check your work, but it costs a whole lot more to get your reputation back.

Love and kisses,
JC


----------



## MiffyMoo

Jonescat said:


> Dear Ipsos Mori
> Aren't the figures supposed to add up to 100%? If your organisation is so stretched that no-one notices the presentation is wrong, if it doesn't check the figures before publication, and get the easy stuff right, why should I have faith that it actually managed to do the underlying calculations, or even collect the data, correctly? I expect it's a rounding error - and it perfectly echoes the current preoccupation with appearance over content. Honestly, it doesn't cost much to get someone else to check your work, but it costs a whole lot more to get your reputation back.
> 
> Love and kisses,
> JC


As you said, probably a rounding error, probably not something to get your knickers in twist over


----------



## havoc

MollySmith said:


> I'm not sure where the evidence is to say it's discussed amongst 'lefties luvvies'? I'd be very interested to get more feedback from OBV on the success of it.


I believe they meant discussed at length as if it were hanging in a gallery. I'm afraid I agree this isn't how most will view it. I did see most of the things you mentioned and still the overriding feeling I got was one of 'us against them' - whites against non-whites. Much as I may agree with the _intended _message I can't agree with the delivery in this case.


----------



## MollySmith

@MilleD and



kimthecat said:


> Yes , its already been posted in this thread before ,
> The best form of advertising is the advert that gets its message over to the right people not one that provokes discussion amongst arty farty lefties luvvies .  Its not a painting entered up at the Royal Academy summer Exhibition, Actually, it would have made a good exhibit. !
> 
> Sorry but whatever the message meant was to be, in my opinion it is reverse racism . Unfortunately , this is happening now , we see reverse sexism too, the ads on the telly with a dog pulling down a young mans swimming trunks and old women cackling at him . That wouldn't be allowed if it were the other way around.
> I lived the 70s , the sexism and racism was dreadful but the idea was to fight for equal rights not this unbalanced "equality" .
> 
> There are racists who are nasty and will always be nasty and people who say things that are racist out of ignorance, fear or resentment and thanks to PCness they cant express those feelings or discuss it because they are accused of racism and they feel they are not being listened to.
> 
> ETA the Sol Campbell one is clever but white people get pilloried for "blacking up "


Saatchi and Saatchi are known for pushing their boundaries. They are not always right but they are often provocative.

We don't have to like it for it to be successful (was it successful, did more people sign up to vote from the audience? Does anyone know?) but we've learned what OBV stand for. It is subjective. Which isn't something that holds up in design at all. 'I don't like it' has no bearing in any design role I have worked in, but objectivity based on evidence does.

NB - I'm not sure where the evidence is to say it's discussed amongst 'lefties luvvies' only? This thread is moving apace so if that's already on here I have missed it.

As to a white vote campaign.

I have no idea.

What I do know a lot about is design research.

Any campaign like this would take months of research and would, I hope, originate from the audience to whom it is intended. I don't hold a lot of respect from social design campaigns that do not start from within a snapshot of the audience they are designed to encourage. I do not know if S and S and OBV did that with their campaign here but a very brief skim from the soundbites in the industry media, it does seem to set up as that model. I don't have time to look much further as I am at work.

An example of mine that I can quickly use. I was asked to come up with a concept for promoting a reading service in Africa. So wow! I think libraries are wonderful and _everyone_ needs to use them, I cycle to mine up the road. Lucky me. It's pretty clear that I have no concept whatsoever of how hard it would be to get to one in Africa, what puts people off. I have been to different parts of Africa on school visits but that's a completely different capacity and for different reasons. So the research and the methodology starts from collecting reasons why the scheme currently in place doesn't work, asking open questions, presenting different ideas to the people who _do not use it. _

I have reams of lectures and practical experience in design research as part of my Masters some of which was all about social design and campaigns. How design can change the world (it doesn't, volunteering at soup kitchens and getting stuck in has more impact).

So a White Vote? It would make for a talking point and provocative. Is there a need - only research could tell. Do I think that there is a need for OBV? I don't know. I am not in the demographic that it's reaching out to and do not have access to the background research. I can only comment on the approach in which I have experience which is perfectly valid, as is yours but the voice to listen to is those to whom it was aimed. Maybe ask OBV because what I think is pointless. Outside design I can only say that, like all of us on here, I think racism is abhorrent and it's a difficult problem to solve.

I hope that's useful/interesting/maybe very dull. I don't want to get into a spat with anyone over this. I was only thinking last night how much I have learned from these many threads.

Off to work, catch you later.


----------



## havoc

I do understand all you're saying but I do have real reservations about this particular image. To say it's a good thing we now know what the OBV is only works if that discovery is positive. It isn't for me. What I see is an image portraying whites as rabid racists and the non-white woman with a very smug and superior look on her face. That's the 'balance' on that see-saw.


----------



## MollySmith

havoc said:


> I do understand all you're saying but I do have real reservations about this particular image. To say it's a good thing we now know what the OBV is only works if that discovery is positive. It isn't for me. What I see is an image portraying whites as rabid racists and the non-white woman with a very smug and superior look on her face. That's the 'balance' on that see-saw.


Thanks for understanding what I'm trying to say - capturing that in a few paras took a few goes and I do respect what you mean.

I agree, it's a difficult (and challenging) image.


----------



## KittenKong

A shame they feel obliged to advertise this way in the 21st century. The stereotypical white racist thug. Conversely the same poster could have been used by a far right group with an obvious message, that's why I found its message confusing.

Racism is certainly not confined to white people alone. It's despicable in any form.


----------



## havoc

MollySmith said:


> I agree, it's a difficult (and challenging) image.


Agreed and maybe perfectly appropriate in certain circumstances. Do I think it's right for either the intended audience or others who may see it (us for example)? I really don't. I think it comes under the category of 'too clever by half' and the law of unintended consequences then comes into play - unless of course they weren't unintended and then it's unforgivably divisive.


----------



## noushka05

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Noushka05:
> 
> You ruthless swine!
> 
> :Hilarious
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> Interesting - why a swine? Sexist or chauvinist tendencies?
> .
> how & when did he lose his Ruth?... Death? Divorce? DeFOO?
> Or did she just fade away wistfully, once she realized his sole passion was money & its acquisition?
> .
> Would he be 'better' with Ruth? --- is that better for others / us, or for him?
> Must she be the same Ruth as before, or if she's deceased / irreconcilable, can it be a different Ruth?
> Any why Ruth? - Why not Naomi, Krystal, Lahkshmi, Blythe, or Candace?
> ,
> What does Ruth do for him, soften the sharp edges? -- Add another perspective? -- Other?
> .
> .
> .


LOL

I never gave it much though tbh. It was the first thing that popped into my head lol. Personally I think naomiless has much less edge to it than ruth does  Ruthless - sounds 'ruthless' to me

I'd like to think a lot of what Satori says is tongue in cheek! If not, I do at least admire their honesty lol


----------



## noushka05

God help us - because if he doesn't we really are screwed.

*Disaster capitalism: the shocking doctrine Tories can't wait to unleash *
*
The Tory right doesn't care about the damage Brexit will do. The prize is a free hand to exploit this mess and roll back the state for good*

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ory-right-brexit-roll-back-state?CMP=soc_3156


----------



## MollySmith

My last thought on this as it does appear to be digressing from whatever we started talking about several weeks ago!

It does occur to me, but I have no evidence, is that OBV could have been railed roaded by the agency. S&S are a huge name in the business and who was in control of this campaign - did OBV want the S & S name association?

I'd love to know the other options they presented and why this one was selected, and the methods.

Some media coverage for those who want to read more.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...eration-black-vote-referendum-poster-divisive

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...brexit-poster-ethnic-minorities-a7049401.html

http://www.thedrum.com/news/2016/05...chi-saatchi-hard-hitting-eu-referendum-poster

http://saatchi.com/en-uk/news/opera...aign-to-encourage-bame-community-voters-to-si/

http://www.thirdsector.co.uk/charit...ion-black-vote/communications/article/1396728

http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/obv-and-saatchi-vote-vote


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> But what if they don't?


Well ideally there would be options to choose from. If none is accepted, then they have to renegotiate.

After all, that's democracy.


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> Agreed and maybe perfectly appropriate in certain circumstances. Do I think it's right for either the intended audience or others who may see it (us for example)? I really don't. I think it comes under the category of 'too clever by half' and the law of unintended consequences then comes into play - unless of course they weren't unintended and then it's unforgivably divisive.


@MollySmith wrote me a good reply , I'm a bit knackered so really all can say if I agree with this and the other replies.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> @MollySmith wrote me a good reply , I'm a bit knackered so really all can say if I agree with this and the other replies.


Thank you @kimthecat, I hoped it was useful or helpful. I'd hate to fall out with you or @MilleD


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Thank you @kimthecat, I hoped it was useful or helpful. I'd hate to fall out with you or @MilleD


Hey, no falling out here. Everyone has different views about things that's all.

Nothing anyone says on this thread if I disagree with it seeps into my respect for them on other threads.

All's good


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Well ideally there would be options to choose from. If none is accepted, then they have to renegotiate.
> 
> After all, that's democracy.


You seriously think their could be a referendum with several complex negotiated positions to choose from. Dude, most folk struggle with a single clause sentence leading to a closed yes or no.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> You seriously think their could be a referendum with several complex negotiated positions to choose from. Dude, most folk struggle with a single clause sentence leading to a closed yes or no.


I don't think we should have had a referendum in the first place for exactly that reason.

But surely those who demanded it would want to give the people the same opportunity to decide on the shape of our future. Otherwise it begins to look like they were just determined to get us out of the EU, but don't consider the consequences to be all that important.

And, 'dude'? We're not aiming to become the 51st State, are we?!


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Thank you @kimthecat, I hoped it was useful or helpful. I'd hate to fall out with you or @MilleD


Oh Molly, sorry you think we'd fall out . I really need to add some more smileys .
If we all thought the same , it would be boring !

I did read the post you deleted , I'm sorry you had such troubles.  There is a lot of nastiness in this world .
I dont know what its like to be racial abused but in my life , I have had not very nice things said to me about people living in council houses , later on in a job a woman used to call me deaf dog and in any job, the jokes aimed at you , later when i developed RA , when I was tired and in pain i used to (and still do) , the "duck walk " and people , generally younger ones have the mick and copied the way I walked, the Spazz has come up a few times but that was just my sister :Hilarious.

So from that point of view , I am aware of how it feels , though I haven't been scared by those people.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Oh Molly, sorry you think we'd fall out . I really need to add some more smileys .
> If we all thought the same , it would be boring !
> 
> I did read the post you deleted , I'm sorry you had such troubles.  There is a lot of nastiness in this world .
> I dont know what its like to be racial abused but in my life , I have had not very nice things said to me about people living in council houses , later on in a job a woman used to call me deaf dog and in any job, the jokes aimed at you , later when i developed RA , when I was tired and in pain i used to (and still do) , the "duck walk " and people , generally younger ones have the mick and copied the way I walked, the Spazz has come up a few times but that was just my sister :Hilarious.
> 
> So from that point of view , I am aware of how it feels , though I haven't been scared by those people.


Oh I'm glad you read the first one - I edited it to cut the waffle! I know I tend to get very geeky about design, it's my job and my passion!

I am so sorry you've experienced cruel words too, I have a few coping mechanisms with dyspraxia so I appreciate that sometimes those hidden ailments can really affect us. There is a lot of nastiness in the world, sadly, as you say.


----------



## havoc

MollySmith said:


> It does occur to me, but I have no evidence, is that OBV could have been railed roaded by the agency. S&S are a huge name in the business and who was in control of this campaign - did OBV want the S & S name association?


Depends what you mean by railroaded. Blinded by the name maybe, overawed by the company, persuaded to go down a route they may not have taken if it weren't being pitched by professionals well versed in the game of persuasion.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think we should have had a referendum in the first place for exactly that reason.
> 
> But surely those who demanded it would want to give the people the same opportunity to decide on the shape of our future. Otherwise it begins to look like they were just determined to get us out of the EU, but don't consider the consequences to be all that important.
> 
> And, 'dude'? We're not aiming to become the 51st State, are we?!


Rather that than being the 28th.


----------



## MollySmith

havoc said:


> Depends what you mean by railroaded. Blinded by the name maybe, overawed by the company, persuaded to go down a route they may not have taken if it weren't being pitched by professionals well versed in the game of persuasion.


Yes, that's what I meant. It's not the first time it's happened where integrity is scarified. The Third Sector have had many blogs about values so it must be a frequent issue.


----------



## Honeys mum

Article 50 for Brexit does NOT need Commons approval for EU exit claim Westminster lawyers | UK | News | Daily Express


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Article 50 for Brexit does NOT need Commons approval for EU exit claim Westminster lawyers | UK | News | Daily Express


Well it should - Parliament is supposed to be sovereign isn't it?

(Mind you, it is the Express ...)


----------



## newfiesmum

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think we should have had a referendum in the first place for exactly that reason.
> 
> But surely those who demanded it would want to give the people the same opportunity to decide on the shape of our future. Otherwise it begins to look like they were just determined to get us out of the EU, but don't consider the consequences to be all that important.
> 
> And, 'dude'? We're not aiming to become the 51st State, are we?!


I was determined to get us out of Europe. Had the leavers lost the vote, I would not be organising marches and demanding another vote because obviously the poor feeble minds on the other side didn't know what they were doing. I voted to leave Europe. I am not interested in staying in with concessions. When Tony Blair got into office three times, did I demand another vote? When we had to tolerate Nick Clegg, had no sort of majority, did I demand another vote? We had a vote, it is final and binding as far as I'm concerned; that is democracy.


----------



## newfiesmum

Arnie83 said:


> Well it should - Parliament is supposed to be sovereign isn't it?
> 
> (Mind you, it is the Express ...)


Why should it? It has the approval of the people; that is all it needs.


----------



## havoc

_When Tony Blair got into office three times, did I demand another vote? When we had to tolerate Nick Clegg, had no sort of majority, did I demand another vote? We had a vote, it is final and binding as far as I'm concerned; that is democracy._
On that logic we should get another vote on the subject in five years then. Democracy isn't about anything being final and binding at all, that's rather the point.


----------



## Lurcherlad

havoc said:


> _When Tony Blair got into office three times, did I demand another vote? When we had to tolerate Nick Clegg, had no sort of majority, did I demand another vote? We had a vote, it is final and binding as far as I'm concerned; that is democracy._
> On that logic we should get another vote on the subject in five years then. Democracy isn't about anything being final and binding at all, that's rather the point.


I see your point, but unlike a General Election which deals with the choosing of our own Government, membership of the EU involves many other countries who get to decide whether or not we can join/rejoin.

They can't be expected to allow members the freedom to opt in and out, willy nilly as it impacts other members too.


----------



## KittenKong

Think it's a bit late to think about another referendum, the damage has been done, I doubt very much our former friends and allies would want us back anyway.

I know some will be overjoyed by the prospect of withdrawing from Europe regardless of the consequences.

Many however were tricked into believing life would be better, £350million more for the NHS etc. etc. They must be feeling like fools to have believed that. It amused me on reading that Boris Johnson suggested the Government should now be working on persuading the public how EU withdrawal would benefit the country. Absolutely unbelievable! He had the answers during the campaign for heavens sake!

With the many. "sore losers" they'll be many more "sore winners" I bet.


----------



## newfiesmum

havoc said:


> _When Tony Blair got into office three times, did I demand another vote? When we had to tolerate Nick Clegg, had no sort of majority, did I demand another vote? We had a vote, it is final and binding as far as I'm concerned; that is democracy._
> On that logic we should get another vote on the subject in five years then. Democracy isn't about anything being final and binding at all, that's rather the point.


The EU referendum was just that, a referendum. Different thing altogether to a general election. I wasn't old enough to vote, but I well remember the referendum we had to decide whether to abolish hanging. Many people have changed their minds about that, but no one is offering a new referendum.


----------



## newfiesmum

KittenKong said:


> Think it's a bit late to think about another referendum, the damage has been done, I doubt very much our former friends and allies would want us back anyway.
> 
> I know some will be overjoyed by the prospect of withdrawing from Europe regardless of the consequences.
> 
> Many however were tricked into believing life would be better, £350million more for the NHS etc. etc. They must be feeling like fools to have believed that. It amused me on reading that Boris Johnson suggested the Government should now be working on persuading the public how EU withdrawal would benefit the country. Absolutely unbelievable! He had the answers during the campaign for heavens sake!
> 
> With the many. "sore losers" they'll be many more "sore winners" I bet.


I never did believe that all the money would go to the NHS and I am rather glad it won't. One thing I do know though; it will be staying in the UK where it belongs.


----------



## KittenKong

I wasn't aware there was a referendum on capital punishment.

You learn something new every day.


----------



## havoc

newfiesmum said:


> The EU referendum was just that, a referendum. Different thing altogether to a general election. I wasn't old enough to vote, but I well remember the referendum we had to decide whether to abolish hanging. Many people have changed their minds about that, but no one is offering a new referendum.


You have a better memory than me then. Not only do I remember it as a free vote in Parliament but I cannot find any reference anywhere to a UK referendum on hanging.

Have found references to the subsequent free votes in subsequent parliaments giving MPs the chance to vote it back in so far from a final decision.


----------



## Arnie83

newfiesmum said:


> I was determined to get us out of Europe. Had the leavers lost the vote, I would not be organising marches and demanding another vote because obviously the poor feeble minds on the other side didn't know what they were doing. I voted to leave Europe. I am not interested in staying in with concessions. When Tony Blair got into office three times, did I demand another vote? When we had to tolerate Nick Clegg, had no sort of majority, did I demand another vote? We had a vote, it is final and binding as far as I'm concerned; that is democracy.


You voted Leave for your own reasons and presumably with a vision for what our position would be afterwards. Others voted Leave for other reasons and no doubt with other visions. No-one has defined what 'Leave' actually means.

If we become members of the EEA, we will have left the EU. Is that what you want?


----------



## Arnie83

newfiesmum said:


> Why should it? It has the approval of the people; that is all it needs.


It was, specifically, an advisory referendum. The people have given their opinion, not their approval.


----------



## Arnie83

newfiesmum said:


> I never did believe that all the money would go to the NHS and I am rather glad it won't. One thing I do know though; it will be staying in the UK where it belongs.


How do you know that, when we don't know what the results of the negotiations will be? As I mentioned above, we might be in the EEA, and in that case we will still be paying fees. Without the rebate or any reinvestment by the EU, we might have no more money than we do now.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Lurcherlad said:


> One thing that was certain if we stayed in, was more of the same.
> 
> The majority of us preferred a period of uncertainty to that!


Of the Remainers I know they did indeed vote thinking it was for the status quo - I don't believe it was. If we had voted to stay it was effectively saying go ahead to more closer union. The original concept was a trading agreement not a political union so the whole thing was a lie. The immigration issue, it was originally sold as free movement of labour not free movement of people, that's what the EU does, drip drip change things in the background without the little people noticing.



noushka05 said:


> God help us - because if he doesn't we really are screwed.
> 
> *Disaster capitalism: the shocking doctrine Tories can't wait to unleash *
> *
> The Tory right doesn't care about the damage Brexit will do. The prize is a free hand to exploit this mess and roll back the state for good*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/04/disaster-capitalism-tory-right-brexit-roll-back-state?CMP=soc_3156


Noushka do you believe articles in the Sun, Express, Daily Mail etc? I don't understand why you blindingly trust the Guardian the most lefty propaganda vehicle you can come across!


----------



## KittenKong

Having supported Remain and a supporter of the principles of the EU I accept our days as a member will soon be coming to an end. Like for millions of others it's back to square one as regards long term plans for the future such as retirement for example.

The EEA is my preferred option but will do nothing to stop the free movement of people to and from other EU/EEA countries. Seeing many voted leave for that very reason I don't think it will go down too well.

As someone else has already said, "What did Leave actually mean"? Different things to different people it seems.


----------



## jessicaclark

The Britains are really stupid. If they could vote again the leavers would reach just 40%. Protest voters and old people with too much patriotism are responsible for ensuring that it is now going downhill with England. I hope Scotland separates even from Britain!


----------



## DoodlesRule

jessicaclark said:


> The Britains are really stupid. If they could vote again the leavers would reach just 40%. Protest voters and old people with too much patriotism are responsible for ensuring that it is now going downhill with England. I hope Scotland separates even from Britain!


Yes you clearly demonstrate your superior intellectual brain power ...................... tit for tat I claim you are stupid!


----------



## KittenKong

I think jessicaclarke was referring to those who voted leave as a joke, who thought remain would win anyway or because The Sun had told them to.

I'm well aware many leave voters wanted out of Europe regardless of the consequences. That doesn't make them stupid, they are entitled to their opinion.

In the same sense it's like Leave supporters saying people voted remain through fear of the unknown or to maintain the status quo. Neither are the reasons why I voted remain.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Many however were tricked into believing life would be better, £350million more for the NHS etc. etc. They must be feeling like fools to have believed that.


Nah. Nobody is actually that dumb.


----------



## Catharinem

jessicaclark said:


> The Britains are really stupid. If they could vote again the leavers would reach just 40%. Protest voters and old people with too much patriotism are responsible for ensuring that it is now going downhill with England. I hope Scotland separates even from Britain!


I don't think the Britains are really stupid.

Individual British maybe...


----------



## Satori

jessicaclark said:


> The Britains are really stupid. If they could vote again the leavers would reach just 40%. Protest voters and old people with too much patriotism are responsible for ensuring that it is now going downhill with England. I hope Scotland separates even from Britain!


well I fink the britins are really really klever espeshully the ones what voted to leave the ewe an if we ad anuver elekshun it would reach 40 billyun trillyun percentiges plus some more so there poopy head.


----------



## kimthecat

People are stupid sometimes no matter where they come from .


----------



## Arnie83

DoodlesRule said:


> Of the Remainers I know they did indeed vote thinking it was for the status quo - I don't believe it was. If we had voted to stay it was effectively saying go ahead to more closer union. The original concept was a trading agreement not a political union so the whole thing was a lie. The immigration issue, it was originally sold as free movement of labour not free movement of people, that's what the EU does, drip drip change things in the background without the little people noticing.


I voted to Remain not for the status quo, but for change from within. but that's neither here nor there.

Did you not think that 'ever closer union' in the Treaties meant some form of political union? And the euro was first proposed in the 60's and was a stated aim from way back. There was no lie there, no secrets.

And did you not believe that the free movement of labour would have been reinforced by the deal Cameron did to expel those who had been in the UK for 6 months without a job? Or that the UK veto over any 'closer union' proposals, and the guaranteed referendum should we choose not to use it, were both bogus?

It seems to me that EU intentions and UK safeguards were all there in plain sight if the 'little people' had looked.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Did you not think that 'ever closer union' in the Treaties meant some form of political union? And the euro was first proposed in the 60's and was a stated aim from way back. There was no lie there, no secrets.


Was it known by the General public about the Euro ? I don't remember it being mentioned at first Referendum but it was a long time ago .

This is interesting , found the Government pamphlet from 1975 , pretty much the same as the 2016 one,
http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> (Mind you, it is the Express ...)


Do you believe that every other paper apart from the Express then only print the Truth.
Doesn't matter what paper it's in, it's a fact. The British people that voted Leave, won. If the remain side had won, I wouldn't be complaining and asking for another referendum. I would have been very disapionted,but I would be thinking well we tried, and lost, that's life.


----------



## KittenKong

Yes, I remember reading about the new decade, I.E. the 1980s with the things that might happen such as an introduction of a single European currency!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I remember reading about the new decade, I.E. the 1980s with possibilities for the decade which included a single European currency!
> 
> Decimalisation came in 1971, phased in over three years. The 10p piece was introduced in 1968 for example. It co-existed with the 2/- coin into the early 1990s.
> 
> Metrication was first discussed as early as the 1950s! The British Metrication Board was established in the late 1960s.


Yes , I remember decimalisation and we were taught metrics in primary school in the 60s , those were certainties but I still don't remember it (the Euro) being classed as a certainty before we joined . My Dad read the daily mirror so perhaps we missed that bit !


----------



## DoodlesRule

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ferendum-vote-leave-labour-people-have-spoken


----------



## KittenKong

Think metrication would have come with or without the CM/EEC/EU eventually, as it has in Australia, though accept it was accelerated up to the compulsory introduction of loose items sold in metric quantities in 2000.

This resulted in ridiculous situations like prosecutions for retailers selling fruit and vegetables in lb and oz.

I think the EU backed down at that point which is probably why road signs were never metricated and pint cans of beer were introduced which can still be purchased today.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Do you believe that every other paper apart from the Express then only print the Truth.


No I don't; that would be silly. It's just that the Express is a bit like the Mail with added hysteria.



Honeys mum said:


> Doesn't matter what paper it's in, it's a fact. The British people that voted Leave, won. If the remain side had won, I wouldn't be complaining and asking for another referendum. I would have been very disapionted,but I would be thinking well we tried, and lost, that's life.


Good for you. I'm not calling for another referendum on the same subject as we just had one - though I suspect the vote would be different now that we've seen the £350m lie exposed and the 'scaremongering' proving to be accurate (£ @ $1.289 last time I looked) and the experts that 'we've all had enough of' proven right.

But I'll be blowed if I'm just going to shrug my shoulders and get on with it when part of my life-long identity has been taken away from me and my economic prospects damaged for no good reason that I can see. I will do what I can to make sure that the UK gets the best deal outside the EU, and for me that will be getting as close to being a full member as we can get while satisfying the letter of the vote.


----------



## Jesthar

Satori said:


> Nah. Nobody is actually that dumb.


_YOU_ have obviously never worked in IT support...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Everyone has right to be stupid at some point...
Just some abuse that privilege.

Farage lied. Then denied it. Then was shown a bus!
If you voted because you believed the lies and that " we do not need experts". Also a lie. We do. 

So you were missold Brexit.
You have right to change your mind...

Wait few more months when effects of that decision start to show...
And it is not triggered yet!

My company had to cut prices but we lost clients already. 

One big employer is moving to Malta.
Another to Philippines.

That means British folks working there might have to go back to UK.
Not all invited to follow the company.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> But I'll be blowed if I'm just going to shrug my shoulders and get on with it when part of my life-long identity has been taken away from me .


When I was 18, I was forced to take on an identity I didn't want . When I was 20 I voted No to staying in the Common market. Like you I had no choice. That wasn't fair to me either.


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> When I was 18, I was forced to take on an identity I didn't want


You didn't have a part of your identity taken away though. You didn't have to stop being British. I do see a difference for those who see themselves as British Europeans as they are being stripped of that European part of their identity.


----------



## MilleD

jessicaclark said:


> The Britains are really stupid. If they could vote again the leavers would reach just 40%. Protest voters and old people with too much patriotism are responsible for ensuring that it is now going downhill with England. I hope Scotland separates even from Britain!


At least those old people could be bothered to vote, unlike the 68% of 18-24 years olds who didn't.


----------



## kimthecat

@havoc , perhaps but we both have been forced to do something we didn't want to do .


----------



## kimthecat

. Deleted as in wrong thread .


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> When I was 18, I was forced to take on an identity I didn't want . When I was 20 I voted No to staying in the Common market. Like you I had no choice. That wasn't fair to me either.


I really don't agree with that. No-one can make us feel an affinity that we don't feel. You weren't forced to feel European - and I'm sure you never have - and none of us have ever felt any less English (or whatever country you associate with). But my place as a European has now been taken away. The UK is (will be) no longer part of Europe.I am restricted to the tribes that occupy this island and am split from the wider community with which I associate.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> I really don't agree with that. No-one can make us feel an affinity that we don't feel. You weren't forced to feel European - and I'm sure you never have - and none of us have ever felt any less English (or whatever country you associate with). But my place as a European has now been taken away. The UK is (will be) no longer part of Europe.I am restricted to the tribes that occupy this island and am split from the wider community with which I associate.


I'm pretty sure that the UK is still part of Europe


----------



## havoc

MilleD said:


> I'm pretty sure that the UK is still part of Europe


If you mean geographically then you're right but proximity (or lack of it) isn't necessarily what creates that feeling in someone.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I really don't agree with that. No-one can make us feel an affinity that we don't feel. You weren't forced to feel European - and I'm sure you never have - and none of us have ever felt any less English (or whatever country you associate with). But my place as a European has now been taken away. The UK is (will be) no longer part of Europe.I am restricted to the tribes that occupy this island and am split from the wider community with which I associate.


I had Europeaness forced on me. BTW I am English and feel that has been taken from me by racists and also the fact that some people from the rest of the Uk aren't fond of us . I don't put the English St George flag any more not even when football is on and that's _not _due to the fact we're a crap team .

I _am_ sorry you feel this way , is it your ambition to live and work in Europe ?


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> for no good reason that I can see.


Try looking.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> When I was 18,* I was forced to take on an identity* *I didn't want .* When I was 20 I voted No to staying in the Common market. Like you I had no choice. That wasn't fair to me either.


and what was that then???

I vote to stay in then and to stay in now. I was British then and I've always been British although I do feel European as well.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> and what was that then???
> 
> .


I've been accused of bullying you and you accused me of trying to get you to respond to "bait" , yet you seem quite happy to respond to my posts that aren't directed at you. Am i supposed to reply to you or not ?

ETA I dont understand the question either . What was what ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> and what was that then???
> 
> I vote to stay in then and to stay in now. I was British then and I've always been British although I do feel European as well.


There is only one world.
We all belong to it and whether we want or not it is all connected.
Splendid isolation is a myth.
Frontiers are artificial. 
We all have blood of different tribes mixed by so many migrations.

We all are immigrants really.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> I've been accused of bullying you and you accused me of trying to get you to respond to "bait" , yet you seem quite happy to respond to my posts that aren't directed at you. Am i supposed to reply to you or not ?
> 
> ETA I dont understand the question either . What was what ?


Sorry I didn't read who posted this, or I wouldn't have answered you.


----------



## kimthecat

You can blocked me and you wont see my posts , then there wont be any confusion .


----------



## kimthecat

EU to oppose total ban on Ivory trade .



https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-a-total-ban-on-ivory-trade?CMP=share_btn_tw

Wildlife officials in nearly 30 African states say they are appalled by an EU decision to oppose a comprehensive global ban on the ivory trade.

In a position paper released on 1 July, the European commission said that rather than an all-encompassing ban it would be better to encourage countries with growing elephant numbers to "sustainably manage" their populations.

An existing global embargo on ivory sales is due to end in 2017 and Zimbabwe, Namibia, South Africa and Botswana are pushing for it to be replaced with a decision-making mechanism for future tusk trading, at the Convention on International Trade in International Species (Cites) conference in Johannesburg this September.

However, the African Elephant Coalition (AEC) - a coalition of 29 African states - is warning of a mass extinction on the continent within 25 years, unless elephants are given an 'Annex I' Cites listing, which would ban any future domestic ivory trade.
Andrew Seguya, the director of Uganda's Wildlife Authority, told the Guardian: "If the EU prevents an Annex I listing, it will be the beginning of the extinction of the African elephant for sure. We have lost 100,000 elephants in just three years. If nothing is done, we will see a tipping of the balance in conservation efforts before the next Cites COP (conference of parties)."


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
from the outside, FX on the UK:
.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/brexit-sell-uk-house-160624064047622.html
.
.
from the outside, effects on others:
.
NATO & defense policy:
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...xit-vote-could-impact-nato-and-defense-policy
.
museums:
http://www.museumsassociation.org/news/24062016-economic-fall-out-brexit-museums
.
US-consumers' wallets:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2016/06/24/how-brexit-could-affect-your-wallet/
.
Mass., USA, economy fallout:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...ass-economy/UXJAD8dQbdhSnprkcAxJqL/story.html
.
USA investors, stocks, etc:
www.cnn.com/2016/06/22/europe/*brexit*-britain-eu-people/
.
Boston's PBS station, WGBH news (audio broadcast):
http://news.wgbh.org/2016/06/24/local-news/listen-how-will-brexit-affect-massachusetts
.
statement from the Mass state-house:
http://www.wcvb.com/news/brexit-vote-delivers-impact-to-massachusetts-budget-businesses/40213380
.
.
...and, of course, these are only an itty-bitty sliver of the knock-on effects around the globe, on currency values, investments within the UK and outside it, commercial & residential real-estate values, pension funds & other mutual fund investments, rates of interest on loans of all kinds, bond issues, & more.
.
Shipping schedules, docking fees, import duties, wholesale & retail prices, fuel costs... Protective tariffs. Special trading partners. And more... all churning, all in limbo or abruptly altered.
.
.
.


----------



## kimthecat

That's a lot of stuff to read, some of the issues have already been discussed .
One of the problems is that Brexit causes is uncertainty, the markets dropped and then picked up but unfortunately the fact that we have no leadership and no plan B creates chaos and causes damage.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...ass-economy/UXJAD8dQbdhSnprkcAxJqL/story.html

".Geehern said he expects the value of the dollar to increase, not just in the United Kingdom, but against other currencies, too. That would make products exported by Massachusetts manufacturers more expensive."

The value of the Dollar and other currencies changes all the time , it swings and roundabouts. We lose out in the same way.

Most of the links you have given are from the US , in 2007 they created one of the biggest financial crisis since the Great depression , I expect they are worried by us leaving but at the moment no ones knows what the outcome will be,


----------



## Jesthar

I overheard one of our cleaning staff talking to the reception staff today when I left work. I'm hoping it wasn't anyone who works for us, but apparently someone had asked him if he had a UK passport, and when he said 'no' the person who asked him followed up with something along the lines of "Oh, you'll have to leave the country soon, then"


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Jesthar:

I overheard one of our cleaning staff talking to the reception staff today when I left work.
I'm hoping it wasn't [someone] who works for us [that badgered the cleaner], but apparently [another employee] asked him if he had a UK passport, and when he said 'no', the person who'd asked followed up with something along the lines of "Oh, you'll have to leave the country soon, then".

/QUOTE
.
.
I'm not "liking" the story, since in fact i find it amazingly ignorant & quite rude, to boot, but i wanted to thank U for offering a slice of life from the working day.
I do hope the born-in-Britain folks who don't 'look British' keep their confidence & cool, & I also hope the recent or long-ago immigrants can very-politely & pointedly tell any bullies who harass them to bog off, sharpish.
.
.
.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I had Europeaness forced on me. BTW I am English and feel that has been taken from me by racists and also the fact that some people from the rest of the Uk aren't fond of us . I don't put the English St George flag any more not even when football is on and that's _not _due to the fact we're a crap team .
> 
> I _am_ sorry you feel this way , is it your ambition to live and work in Europe ?


I have lived and worked in Europe since 1973.

And it's my ambition not to work at all!


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Try looking.


Nice.

I suspect that I have done more research into the EU, its historical raison d'etre and intentions, its legislative processes, the UK's powers of veto and qualified majority voting, the democratic arrangements before and after the Lisbon Treaty, the history of the euro and ever closer union, the four freedoms, the Court of Justice and the ECHR, the regulations and 'red tape', the various possibilities for leaving, the Norwegian, Swiss, Canadian trade deals, the provisions of Article 50, the political and economic ramifications of the upcoming negotiations, etc, than most.

I appreciate that you think I've got it wrong, but it wasn't for want of looking.


----------



## MilleD

havoc said:


> If you mean geographically then you're right but proximity (or lack of it) isn't necessarily what creates that feeling in someone.


I've always thought that geographic was more important than some political affiliation which can change at any time.

I someone from the UK was living in, say, Germany, and Germany voted to leave the EU - would that make that person feel less 'European'?


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Nice.
> 
> I suspect that I have done more research into the EU, its historical raison d'etre and intentions, its legislative processes, the UK's powers of veto and qualified majority voting, the democratic arrangements before and after the Lisbon Treaty, the history of the euro and ever closer union, the four freedoms, the Court of Justice and the ECHR, the regulations and 'red tape', the various possibilities for leaving, the Norwegian, Swiss, Canadian trade deals, the provisions of Article 50, the political and economic ramifications of the upcoming negotiations, etc, than most.
> 
> I appreciate that you think I've got it wrong, but it wasn't for want of looking.


Ah. So you don't mean that you can't see good reasons that people voted leave; you mean that they happen not to apply to you. Different things. The reasons, many good and sensible reasons, that the country voted to leave have been cited ad nauseum on this very thread. See post 1532 for a link to a list of them for example. They still stand. If it makes sore losers happier to assume there was no good reason or that people who voted leave were thick, racist &/or deluded that's fine; cope how you want. But you won't understand why this happened if you keep your eyes closed to anybody else's viewpoint; hence my comment.


----------



## Satori

MilleD said:


> I've always thought that geographic was more important than some political affiliation which can change at any time.
> 
> I someone from the UK was living in, say, Germany, and Germany voted to leave the EU - would that make that person feel less 'European'?


Exactly. Affiliation to an extremist political project has nothing whatsoever to do with feeling European or not.

I find it sad that anyone finds their identity has changed. Personally, I choose my own identity. Don't need others to tell me what it should be.

And as for this horlicks about prospects for work and travel being diminished, for competent people nothing has changed. Employers will still hire the best people for jobs regardless of where they live.


----------



## Satori

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> from the outside, FX on the UK:
> .
> http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/brexit-sell-uk-house-160624064047622.html
> .
> .
> from the outside, effects on others:
> .
> NATO & defense policy:
> http://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...xit-vote-could-impact-nato-and-defense-policy
> .
> museums:
> http://www.museumsassociation.org/news/24062016-economic-fall-out-brexit-museums
> .
> US-consumers' wallets:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2016/06/24/how-brexit-could-affect-your-wallet/
> .
> Mass., USA, economy fallout:
> https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...ass-economy/UXJAD8dQbdhSnprkcAxJqL/story.html
> .
> USA investors, stocks, etc:
> www.cnn.com/2016/06/22/europe/*brexit*-britain-eu-people/
> .
> Boston's PBS station, WGBH news (audio broadcast):
> http://news.wgbh.org/2016/06/24/local-news/listen-how-will-brexit-affect-massachusetts
> .
> statement from the Mass state-house:
> http://www.wcvb.com/news/brexit-vote-delivers-impact-to-massachusetts-budget-businesses/40213380
> .
> .
> ...and, of course, these are only an itty-bitty sliver of the knock-on effects around the globe, on currency values, investments within the UK and outside it, commercial & residential real-estate values, pension funds & other mutual fund investments, rates of interest on loans of all kinds, bond issues, & more.
> .
> Shipping schedules, docking fees, import duties, wholesale & retail prices, fuel costs... Protective tariffs. Special trading partners. And more... all churning, all in limbo or abruptly altered.
> .
> .
> .


There have been many references to the fall in the value of sterling, especially the GBP/USD pair. All they demonstrate is a lack of understanding as to how exchange rates work.

Firstly, this is exactly what fx rates are supposed to do. It's the global capital markets at their most efficient, buffering any short term economic impacts of brexit. That's why we have different currencies. Imagine we were in the Eurozone and tried to leave; now that would be properly tough.

Secondly the rates have not reacted violently at all. The headline rate tells you nothing. You MUST view fx pairs in relation to predicted yield for the relative economies. The GBP/USD pair is still tracking the relative yield curves of UK/USD very nicely until about 1.35 atm, assuming a rate hike this year over there and close to 0% boe rates by year end. The gap down to sub 1.30 is a bit of an over-reaction and I concede it could fall further short-term but that's just trading.


----------



## KittenKong

Satori:

I find it sad that anyone finds their identity has changed. Personally, I choose my own identity. Don't need others to tell me what it should be.
------------------
Agree entirely but it's what they'll think of us overseas that could become a problem now we will no longer be part of a union that previously united us. I feel English people abroad could become targets in much the same way EU citizens have been targeted here following the referendum result.


----------



## MollySmith

I have had far more life events than have tried to define who I am and my identity than where I was born and which country I chose to live in


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Ah. So you don't mean that you can't see good reasons that people voted leave; you mean that they happen not to apply to you. Different things. The reasons, many good and sensible reasons, that the country voted to leave have been cited ad nauseum on this very thread. See post 1532 for a link to a list of them for example. They still stand. If it makes sore losers happier to assume there was no good reason or that people who voted leave were thick, racist &/or deluded that's fine; cope how you want. But you won't understand why this happened if you keep your eyes closed to anybody else's viewpoint; hence my comment.


"For no good reason *that I can see*" makes clear that it was a personal judgement, which is why I used those exact words.

Had I said "For no good reason" then that would have been a judgement of other people's reasoning, and your rebuke might then have been justified. I would never accuse anyone of being "thick racist or deluded" for reaching a different conclusion to me.

But don't expect me to change my conclusions unless the facts change.


----------



## DoodlesRule

cheekyscrip said:


> Everyone has right to be stupid at some point...
> Just some abuse that privilege.
> 
> Farage lied. Then denied it. Then was shown a bus!
> If you voted because you believed the lies and that " we do not need experts". Also a lie. We do.
> 
> So you were missold Brexit.
> You have right to change your mind...
> 
> Wait few more months when effects of that decision start to show...
> And it is not triggered yet!
> 
> My company had to cut prices but we lost clients already.
> 
> One big employer is moving to Malta.
> Another to Philippines.
> 
> That means British folks working there might have to go back to UK.
> Not all invited to follow the company.


Whatever anyones view of Nigel Farage, why keep trying to pin "the bus" on him. That was the official vote leave campaign which he had nothing to do with - hence when he was asked he confirmed he did not believe it and would not have said it.

Missold Brexit - presumably all the Remainers were lied to and would change their minds and vote leave then because there has been no emergency budget, the world has not ended and world war III has not started.

Cheeky I deeply sympathise with your own personal situation in Gibraltar, it must be very worrying times, but every one votes taking their own and their families circumstances into account. You have often posted about all the problems encountered with Spain and being part of the EU has not helped to date has it


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I have lived and worked in Europe since 1973.
> 
> And it's my ambition not to work at all!




The UK leaving has been described as a divorce , but to me its like Why get married in the first place when you can enjoy a good relationship and not have the ties that bind you ( or live in sin as our parents used to say ! )


----------



## Arnie83

DoodlesRule said:


> Missold Brexit - presumably all the Remainers were lied to and would change their minds and vote leave then because there has been no emergency budget, the world has not ended and world war III has not started.


Osborne has abandoned the aim to provide a budget surplus by 2020 instead, but you are right in that there has been no budget. What the next Chancellor will do we will have to wait and see.

And since no-one said the world would end, nor that WWIII would start, the question of lying in those cases is moot.


----------



## kimthecat

Sports Direct trying to blame Brexit for fall in profits . Nothing to do with negative publicity you received , eh Mike !


----------



## noushka05

*


DoodlesRule said:



Of the Remainers I know they did indeed vote thinking it was for the status quo - I don't believe it was. If we had voted to stay it was effectively saying go ahead to more closer union. The original concept was a trading agreement not a political union so the whole thing was a lie. The immigration issue, it was originally sold as free movement of labour not free movement of people, that's what the EU does, drip drip change things in the background without the little people noticing.

Noushka do you believe articles in the Sun, Express, Daily Mail etc? I don't understand why you blindingly trust the Guardian the most lefty propaganda vehicle you can come across!

Click to expand...

I generally take articles written in the gutter press with a pinch of salt - & often with absolute disgust. And that is what these rags are - trash. The Sun - owned by Rupert Murdoch. The Express owned by Richard Desmond. The Fail owned by the Barcley brothers. Four right wing extremist billionaires spewing their hatred & propaganda - feeding their readers 'OPINION' dressed up as 'NEWS'.

That's one of the big differences between the Guardian & these rags (& indeed much of the msm), it very clearly separates its 'opinion' articles from its 'news' articles. See here on the article you quoted? - 
>>> Opinion <<<< Disaster capitalism: the shocking doctrine Tories can't wait to unleash
Howard Hotson

So no, I don't blindingly trust everything in the guardian. Although it is a quality paper, & as I have said before on environmental news it is outstanding, not every article is accurate. Just days ago in fact, Glenn Greenwald (who himself writes in the Guardian) highlighted the corrections the paper had made on the blatant inaccuracies it had printed about 'LEFTY' Jeremy Corbyn *

*
Keep reading the right wing trash though, & it will have you believing immigrants are the reason our NHS is in crisis & our public services are being stretched to breaking point & not because the tories are slashing funding in their quest to shrink the state to pre 1930s levels. Oh...










*


----------



## KittenKong

Yep, the former Country Durham town of Jarrow is now within the Borough of South Tyneside.

Leave won in that area...........


----------



## alixtaylor

https://www.ted.com/talks/alexander...ened_and_what_to_do_next?language=en#t-674763

What he said.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
I wrote about this book when i read it -
_'The Shock Doctrine, the rise of disaster capitalism' _ by Naomi Klein
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003KVKQB4/
.
...in the "what are you reading?" thread; IIRC, that was over a year ago.
I wouldn't suggest reading it to fall asleep; i often read in bed before nodding off, but this is more likely to give U nightmares than sweet dreams.
.
This gives a chapter by chapter outline -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine
.
I found the descriptions of fiddling with Central & South American nations chilling, to say the least.
Friedman economics is / was a lynchpin in Wash-DC, & Thatcher was a huge proponent, too.
.
.
.


----------



## Satori

alixtaylor said:


> https://www.ted.com/talks/alexander...ened_and_what_to_do_next?language=en#t-674763
> 
> What he said.


Of all the pompous, elitist dickheads I have heard spewing classism about leave voters, this moron takes the biscuit. Seriously, people are not going to hear the reasons we voted to leave while their heads remain up their arses. What a truly vile individual.


----------



## alixtaylor

Satori said:


> Of all the pompous, elitist dickheads I have heard spewing classism about leave voters, this moron takes the biscuit. Seriously, people are not going to hear the reasons we voted to leave while their heads remain up their arses. What a truly vile individual.


Classism works both ways!


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> *
> 
> I generally take articles written in the gutter press with a pinch of salt - & often with absolute disgust. And that is what these rags are - trash. The Sun - owned by Rupert Murdoch. The Express owned by Richard Desmond. The Fail owned by the Barcley brothers. Four right wing extremist billionaires spewing their hatred & propaganda - feeding their readers 'OPINION' dressed up as 'NEWS'.
> 
> That's one of the big differences between the Guardian & these rags (& indeed much of the msm), it very clearly separates its 'opinion' articles from its 'news' articles. See here on the article you quoted? -
> >>> Opinion <<<< Disaster capitalism: the shocking doctrine Tories can't wait to unleash
> Howard Hotson
> 
> So no, I don't blindingly trust everything in the guardian. Although it is a quality paper, & as I have said before on environmental news it is outstanding, not every article is accurate. Just days ago in fact, Glenn Greenwald (who himself writes in the Guardian) highlighted the corrections the paper had made on the blatant inaccuracies it had printed about 'LEFTY' Jeremy Corbyn *
> 
> *
> Keep reading the right wing trash though, & it will have you believing immigrants are the reason our NHS is in crisis & our public services are being stretched to breaking point & not because the tories are slashing funding in their quest to shrink the state to pre 1930s levels. Oh...
> 
> View attachment 276488
> 
> *


Totally what you said! I detest the Murdoch empire. But the Guardian has a better ethical code than most and more open access too. I have several friends who work there and said that the culture is very different to that of other newspapers. In placing itself at Kings Place I think it's made a deliberate attempt to be outside the Whapping/ ex Fleet Street culture too.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Arnie83 said:


> Osborne has abandoned the aim to provide a budget surplus by 2020


wouldnt it be funny if we had a surplus by 2020 anyway


----------



## Happy Paws2

Colliebarmy said:


> wouldnt it be funny if we had a surplus by 2020 anyway


that I'd like to see


----------



## MollySmith

You know how we're all gawping at the number of politicians and other wastes of spaces departing, but meanwhile there's a burglar robbing next door.... well, in other news.... the UN are concerned that austerity measures by the Conservatives breach human rights and there has been a rise in child poverty. So that surplus might happen...:Grumpy

We'll all be back on real :Spam and jam sarnies before you know it.


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> wouldnt it be funny if we had a surplus by 2020 anyway


Hilarious, except for the ones who would have paid for it.

But it's a lot more likely that we will still be in the EU.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The more I read and hear from the outers is the only reason they voted out is they don't like the Europe and nothing to do the with EU at all, and some have no idea why they voted out.


----------



## MilleD

alixtaylor said:


> https://www.ted.com/talks/alexander...ened_and_what_to_do_next?language=en#t-674763
> 
> What he said.


Who's this twit?


----------



## alixtaylor

MilleD said:


> Who's this twit?


https://www.rsc.ox.ac.uk/people/alexander-betts

I would say qualified and well within his right to offer an opinion on the subject.


----------



## MilleD

alixtaylor said:


> https://www.rsc.ox.ac.uk/people/alexander-betts
> 
> I would say qualified and well within his right to offer an opinion on the subject.


He may well be, but as soon as he said areas with more immigration are more tolerant I had to switch him off.


----------



## alixtaylor

MilleD said:


> He may well be, but as soon as he said areas with more immigration are more tolerant I had to switch him off.


There have been a number of social science studies that suggest higher immigration levels in areas can lead to greater tolerance, for example: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/25/3/665.abstract

There are so many sides to this story, this is just one point of view from one section of scientific research. I think we need to listen to as many as possible, even if we don't agree with them, in order to better understand each other. There is as much responsibility on the leave voters to listen to the remain voters, as the remain voters to listen to the leave voters, that we should encourage discussion instead of name calling.

I marched in London last weekend in support of the EU, I didn't do this to 'overthrow' democracy, nor do I think we should have a second referendum. I did it to show the importance of the EU to a younger generation and to highlight the strengths of our relationship with the EU economically and symbolically. My only aim is to ensure we enter into the brexit with an awareness and make sure that we pop out the other end better off.


----------



## Satori

MilleD said:


> Who's this twit?


I think your spell checker changed the 'a' to an 'i'.


----------



## MilleD

Satori said:


> I think your spell checker changed the 'a' to an 'i'.


----------



## MilleD

alixtaylor said:


> There are so many sides to this story, this is just one point of view from one section of scientific research. I think we need to listen to as many as possible, even if we don't agree with them, in order to better understand each other. There is as much responsibility on the leave voters to listen to the remain voters, as the remain voters to listen to the leave voters, that we should encourage discussion instead of name calling.


His point of view of course but it came across to me as patronising insulting twaddle.


----------



## stockwellcat.

EU Second Referendum Petition rejected.

This is the Government's response:


> The EU Referendum Act received Royal Assent in December 2015. The Act was scrutinised and debated in Parliament during its passage and agreed by both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. The Act set out the terms under which the referendum would take place, including provisions for setting the date, franchise and the question that would appear on the ballot paper. The Act did not set a threshold for the result or for minimum turnout.
> 
> As the Prime Minister made clear in his statement to the House of Commons on 27 June, the referendum was one of the biggest democratic exercises in British history with over 33 million people having their say. The Prime Minister and Government have been clear that this was a once in a generation vote and, as the Prime Minister has said, the decision must be respected. We must now prepare for the process to exit the EU and the Government is committed to ensuring the best possible outcome for the British people in the negotiations.
> 
> Foreign and Commonwealth Office


Source of information: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

This is going to be in the papers tomorrow.

Now we just need someone who is going to do there job and activate Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty.

I do know a few business owners are trying to take the government to court over this but can you honestly see a judge taking on the government who make the laws of the UK? If a judge does listen to these cases I can't see them getting very far.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> EU Second Referendum Petition rejected.
> 
> This is the Government's response:
> 
> Source of information: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
> 
> This is going to be in the papers tomorrow.
> 
> Now we just need someone who is going to do there job and activate Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty.
> 
> I do know a few business owners are trying to take the government to court over this but can you honestly see a judge taking on the government who make the laws of the UK? If a judge does listen to these cases I can't see them getting very far.


Like I said, this silly petition signed by silly little people was never going to be debated in parliament. Thank goodness there's still some common sense.


----------



## Colliebarmy

alixtaylor said:


> https://www.rsc.ox.ac.uk/people/alexander-betts
> 
> I would say qualified and well within his right to offer an opinion on the subject.


and a vested interest in keeping his grants to study migrants

no MYgrants no grants

He has worked for UNHCR and as a *consultant to the Council of Europe
*
"Research on forced migration" who forced them?


----------



## kimthecat

Interesting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/26/newsid_2503000/2503155.stm
*1975: Labour votes to leave the EEC*
A one-day conference held by the Labour Party to debate Britain's membership of Europe has voted by almost 2-1 to leave the European Economic Community.

The result underlines the deep splits within the party over the issue, which goes to a national referendum on 5 June.

There were just over 3.7m votes for rejecting EEC membership. Most of the votes came from the two biggest unions, the Transport Workers and the Engineering Workers.

The pro-membership campaign fell just short of their target of two million votes, but still carried their highest-ever vote. Seven of the 46 unions present supported the campaign.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
I just saw Michael Moore's 2007 documentary _'Sicko'_ night before last, amazing! -
I remember being nauseated by my own emotional distress, when I heard that 9/11 responders were suffering the tortures of the dam*ed with serious medical fallout from their exposure, & NO ONE was helping them. My eyes filled with tears & my stomach rolled over, seeing them hacking & wheezing, tormented by PTSD, in pain, in debt, & listening to bureaucrats explain why we didn't owe them anything. Grotesque barstewards.
Among other eye-opening moments, Moore took a group of half-treated, semi-diagnosed, desperate 9/11 responders to Cuba, where Guantanamo Base turned them away with sirens [the GB prisoners have state-of-the-art medical facilities & a patient / Dr ratio of 4 to 1], & then to a Cuban hospital - where they were treated for nothing, & one woman got her $120 inhalers for the equivalent of 5-cents each. She was in tears of joy.
.
https://freedocumentaries.org/documentary/sicko
.
I don't think anyone in the UK or Canada could comprehend the huge weight of the medical juggernaut in the USA - fully 75% of all U-S bankruptcies begin as medical problems & medical debt.
"Socialized medicine" was the curse-word that kept American citizens chained to the industrialized world's most expensive & least effective medical system.
.
.
England at the end of WW-II was nearly bankrupt, battered, her capitol in ruins, her citizens still living under severe austerity - but She established medical care for everyone - because if money could be found to kill people, money could be found to make them well, or keep them well.
.
.
5 must-see medical docus:
http://www.healthcaredive.com/news/5-must-see-healthcare-documentaries/280998/
.
If the UK allows a conservative government to dismantle the healthcare system that was painstakingly built since 1945, her citizens today are utter fools - IMO.
.
.
.


----------



## alixtaylor

Colliebarmy said:


> and a vested interest in keeping his grants to study migrants
> 
> no MYgrants no grants
> 
> He has worked for UNHCR and as a *consultant to the Council of Europe
> *
> "Research on forced migration" who forced them?


The whole scientific community has a vested interest in the EU and will be working towards a relationship to maintain the EU stream of income and prevent a drop in research and development.

I'm not sure from where exactly you are quoted "Research on forced migration", but surely all asylum seekers are forced to migrate?


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/uknews/brexit-vote-not-legally-binding


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

KittenKong said:


> http://www.msn.com/en-gb/uknews/brexit-vote-not-legally-binding


Talk about being paid to point out the obvious lol

Hundreds of barristers have written to Prime Minister David Cameron saying the referendum result is "advisory", and not legally binding. Err yes. We knew that. It was stated to be that from the start.

J


----------



## cheekyscrip

Are those who voted Leave to get rid of Cameron happy now?
Just makes me wonder?
Destruction of Labour as a collateral damage?


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Destruction of Labour as a collateral damage?


----------



## shadowmare

2 weeks on... I'm still sitting deep in uncertainty of what the feel is going on and where this will lead. 5 of my friends have got news that their companies will not be renewing/ confirming their contracts as some of their potential clients pulled out and there will be no projects to work on. The deadline for my masters application is in 4 months. I still have no clue if there is any point in me applying for it. All we hear from the leave campaign is how valued the EU citizens are, yet no one says anything specific. Dear government, what are you planning to do with us?


----------



## Arnie83

shadowmare said:


> 2 weeks on... I'm still sitting deep in uncertainty of what the feel is going on and where this will lead. 5 of my friends have got news that their companies will not be renewing/ confirming their contracts as some of their potential clients pulled out and there will be no projects to work on. The deadline for my masters application is in 4 months. I still have no clue if there is any point in me applying for it. All we hear from the leave campaign is how valued the EU citizens are, yet no one says anything specific. Dear government, what are you planning to do with us?


Sorry to hear about your situation @shadowmare .

For anyone who is claiming that nothing bad is happening - because the (foreign-owned) FTSE 100 is fine, and the pound has 'only' dropped 12%, and 'world war 3 hasn't started', this is the reality of the situation.

It's been a couple of weeks and people's jobs are starting to disappear and their future plans are being ruined. It may not be a hill of beans to those who are unaffected, but there are plenty for whom the reality is now uncertainty and chaos. Over the next couple of years at least that will continue, until we reach a future that no-one can predict and which will be impossible to compare with the alternative had we remained.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Over the next couple of years at least that will continue, until we reach a future that no-one can predict and which will be impossible to compare with the alternative had we remained.


I disagree. Had we voted to remain we'd never have known how the alternative might have turned out. It will be much easier to make any comparison this way round.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> I disagree. Had we voted to remain we'd never have known how the alternative might have turned out. It will be much easier to make any comparison this way round.


I'm afraid on this one logic and fact are both on my side.

Whichever way we had voted you (or anyone else) could never compare one actual future with an alternative that won't have happened because you can never know what that alternative would have been. You can make guesses and assumptions, but you can never know, so a comparison is, simply, impossible.


----------



## cheekyscrip

shadowmare said:


> 2 weeks on... I'm still sitting deep in uncertainty of what the feel is going on and where this will lead. 5 of my friends have got news that their companies will not be renewing/ confirming their contracts as some of their potential clients pulled out and there will be no projects to work on. The deadline for my masters application is in 4 months. I still have no clue if there is any point in me applying for it. All we hear from the leave campaign is how valued the EU citizens are, yet no one says anything specific. Dear government, what are you planning to do with us?


Or with us? Are you going to trade us to Spain?
Spain makes frontier impassable already. So less income from tourism etc..
Will we have any place to live, what about our jobs?

London.voted to Remain too.

Thirty two thousand British people ...any future?


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Whichever way we had voted you (or anyone else) could never compare one actual future with an alternative that won't have happened because you can never know what that alternative would have been. You can make guesses and assumptions, but you can never know, so a comparison is, simply, impossible


Some guesses and assumptions are going to be more accurate this way round though. For example, had the country voted to remain we could have continued on the 'assumption' there would have been an extra £x spent on the NHS. As we voted to leave we'll actually find out.


----------



## cheekyscrip

The only thing we might say that Remain meant continuity and more predictable and stable situation.
It looked like growth and possible surplus.
Brexit so far looks like chaos and recession.


----------



## Goblin

Recent industry survey of 555 firms by Ernst & Young (financial focus):

14 percent said they were already planning to reduce activities in the UK.
33 percent said they would maintain their UK operations at present levels.

Generally though future direction of business in the UK still seems to be unforeseeable. 

This is the first task. Get rid of the uncertainty. Send in the paperwork and start negotiations. This is especially important for those people from the EU who need to know what their future holds in the UK. For comparison, as an englishman, in Germany I'm fine, long term resident covered and protected by EU regulations and rules.


----------



## kimthecat

pound is up today , seimens has changed its mind and said it will continue to invest in britain so some good news . 
Perhaps because we are showing we have some leadership with new Pm and are getting on with it .


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> pound is up today , seimens has changed its mind and said it will continue to invest in britain so some good news .
> Perhaps because we are showing we have some leadership with new Pm and are getting on with it .


The resolution of the PM situation has certainly reduced some of the uncertainty in the foreign exchange market, and it's a welcome increase in the pound.

We shouldn't forget, though, that Brexit has been weighing on the marker for a long time. A year ago the pound was around 20% higher against the dollar, and to quote from a BBC article 'as Andy Scott of foreign exchange services firm HiFX put it: "Concerns over the UK economy and the risk of a Brexit look likely to continue to haunt sterling." '

That was in January, and they were pricing the Brexit chances in well before then. It's going to take a long time to get sterling back to $1.55


----------



## Colliebarmy

Arnie83 said:


> We shouldn't forget, though, that Brexit has been weighing on the marker for a long time. A year ago the pound was around 20% higher against the dollar, and to quote from a BBC article 'as Andy Scott of foreign exchange services firm HiFX put it: "Concerns over the UK economy and the risk of a Brexit look likely to continue to haunt sterling." '


Good for exporters though, UK goods are cheaper than ever


----------



## cheekyscrip

Colliebarmy said:


> Good for exporters though, UK goods are cheaper than ever


Unless to produce them you need components from EU?
And what about import?

How the price of fuel will affect prices of any product?

In weeks pound fell from 1.39 to euro to 1.17!!!!


----------



## MollySmith

On BBC 2 now, essential viewing in light of Brexit and the great immigration debate.

Try watching a 10 year old girl and her father trying to get over seeing two dead children on the road.

They are following a family who are trying to decide if they should pay someone to help them leave Aleppo, another celebrating walking in the rain - the mother and her daughter celebrating freedom beside the road in Serbia as they walk ten miles from a broken down bus to Croatia knowing that 'home is gone now' because it was bombed. It's awful, so bloody tragic and we have to do more to help.


----------



## CuddleMonster

I never cease to be amazed by the courage of the refugees I know. They have lost everything in ways we can't even imagine, but they are always cheerful, always hopeful, always concerned for others...I am in awe of them.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
I worked with 2 young women, sisters, who had fled their home country with their parents, 1 grandparent, & siblings - the girls had been only 9 & 11-YO at the time, it took them 3-weeks of walking AT NIGHT, hiding by day, eating anything they could find, drinking from puddles, to get over the border.
Their little brother, only 5, nearly died - he got sick from the dirty water. At one point, their parents were CARRYING their grandmother with a blanket as a sling, walking barefoot over rough desert country.
Every day, their parents would pull thorns from everyone's feet with pliers, their own feet included, & U could *not* cry or scream - they stuffed rags in their mouths, or bit a pillow & groaned.
.
They were fleeing the Ayatollah Khomeini. They knew if they were caught, they'd be 1st tortured, & then killed as an object lesson to anyone who might think of imitating them.
Their little brother had nightmares for years afterward, & had to have a night-light to sleep.
.
.
.


----------



## MollySmith

It was the hardest hour of television I have ever watched and there is another part. It's also on iplayer on the link below.

If you voted Brexit because of migration, watch this. You really should because we all should have our views challenged.

If you can't be arsed, do let me know so I can put you on ignore because you're just spouting white noise that means nothing. It means no more than me saying something on migration because I haven't experienced it and neither have you. These people have.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07ky7sn/exodus-our-journey-to-europe-episode-1


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> If you can't be arsed, do let me know so I can put you on ignore because you're just spouting white noise that means nothing.


I can't be arsed.


----------



## Catharinem

cheekyscrip said:


> Or with us? Are you going to trade us to Spain?


There is no "you and us", Gibraltar is British territory and citizens are British. Please don't ask what we are going to do with you, but instead what all of us are going to ask of our government.

I can't see Gibraltar being traded to Spain, too many British soldiers died fighting for the Falkland islands to remain British to open the door of handing back territories to other countries.


----------



## Goblin

Catharinem said:


> I can't see Gibraltar being traded to Spain, too many British soldiers died fighting for the Falkland islands to remain British to open the door of handing back territories to other countries.


It doesn't take a "trade" to ruin the lives of those in Gibralter, all it takes is apathy. This is the current situation. When has Gibralter and the effects of BREXIT been in the news? Has any solidarity been shown or is it only going to come when military force is needed?


----------



## CuddleMonster

MollySmith said:


> It was the hardest hour of television I have ever watched and there is another part. It's also on iplayer on the link below.
> 
> If you voted Brexit because of migration, watch this. You really should because we all should have our views challenged.
> 
> If you can't be arsed, do let me know so I can put you on ignore because you're just spouting white noise that means nothing. It means no more than me saying something on migration because I haven't experienced it and neither have you. These people have.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07ky7sn/exodus-our-journey-to-europe-episode-1


I can't watch because I don't have a tv, but I'm glad it's being publicised. There is so much woolly thinking around immigration, and one of the things I find hardest to deal with is the way in which so many people mix up economic migrants and refugees and treat them as if they are all the same. I think it's probably because we have had it so easy & so safe in this country for so many years that we can't get our heads round what it is like to live in a country where you go to bed every night wondering if you will still be alive in the morning, or where you can be executed for expressing the 'wrong' views.


----------



## havoc

CuddleMonster said:


> we have had it so easy & so safe in this country for so many years that we can't get our heads round what it is like to live in a country where you go to bed every night wondering if you will still be alive in the morning,


I sometimes ask the question of those against letting refugees come here 'if something catastrophic happened here where would you go?' Of course I get told it couldn't happen here and I'm quite sure those professional, wealthy Syrians who can afford to get out thought it couldn't happen to them until it did.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
The Iranian couple whose home I shared briefly were a case in point -
the wife was a grad-student at Penn State; her husband 'at home' in Iran was an upper-level officer in an international bank - thousands of dollars passed under his purview daily, moving from country to country or as investments in local business, or abroad - commercial properties changed hands, loans were made or denied on his word; he was a respected man in the community, with authority & social standing. Ppl consulted him, deferred to him, locals greeted him obsequiously on the street.

here in the USA, he was an appendage - the hubby of a grad-student - & he hated it.
I was supposed to be helping him to learn English, as his conversational skills were almost nonexistent [he could read it, somewhat], but given his attitudes toward women, i should have known that was a non-starter.
.
anyway, while I was with them, the Ayatollah staged his coup - and suddenly the 5-pm news was sacrosanct, everything in the house stopped 15-mins before it began, & the whole family, including the 2-YO boy, would sit paralyzed in front of the TV, trying to find out what was happening 'at home'. There were no cell-phones; getting any direct information was almost impossible, their families & friends were there, their property / their home was there, & they knew nothing of what had happened to anyone or anything.
There were intense, quiet arguments daily - hubby wanted fervently to go home, wife was determined that her children would NOT be put in harm's way, with machine-guns mounted on tripods on the street corners, women & girls raped, boys kidnapped as soldiers for either side or as hostages for ransom, buildings destroyed by mortar fire, schools & businesses shut down, & chaos everywhere.
HER children were going to school every day, & they were safe... hubby would counter, what about our families? What about my job, our home?...
.
They moved to Florida to finish her Doctorate, Penna was too cold for them, & i lost touch.
But i'll never forget that feeling of bated-breath anxiety while the news began. It was awful.
.
.
.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> It doesn't take a "trade" to ruin the lives of those in Gibralter, all it takes is apathy. This is the current situation. When has Gibralter and the effects of BREXIT been in the news? Has any solidarity been shown or is it only going to come when military force is needed?


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/foreign-secretary-reaffirms-uk-commitment-to-gibraltar


----------



## cheekyscrip

Catharinem said:


> There is no "you and us", Gibraltar is British territory and citizens are British. Please don't ask what we are going to do with you, but instead what all of us are going to ask of our government.
> 
> I can't see Gibraltar being traded to Spain, too many British soldiers died fighting for the Falkland islands to remain British to open the door of handing back territories to other countries.


Frankly: The Rock will stand. But with frontier closed our trade , our income from tourism will be so diminished that most people would lose their jobs.
MOD provides only few percent of employment nowadays...
In times of frontier closed by Franco most jobs were build round MOD.
Gibraltar may stay British. And ruined.
That is stark reality. Our children will have to go. With non EU passports.
I mean generally.
How would you feel if your country thanks to someone else's decision was to lose most income and mist people would have to became ? Refugees? 
You know...we do not want handouts but to be able to maintain ourselves.
As we do so far.

Many British people who work in Gibraltar have houses in Spain.
Tell what choice they have?
All those people who have mortgages for many years to come but would be made redundant and their property worthless.

Please, I just do not want to insult anyone, So spare me talks about soldiers.

BJ as our defender against Margallo...never felt safer...
@rona we can put BJs words on our buses...


----------



## stockwellcat.

I read over and over again about Gibraltar. The British Government has re-affirmed that Gibraltar is not for sale and will not be transferred to Spain it is remaining British. The Government want Gibraltar on the negotiationing table with leaving the EU:
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0ZW143

Regarding the Falklands that isn't a EU issue they are on the other side of the world and will remain British. None of our Islands are for sale or are being transferred to another nation.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I read over and over again about Gibraltar. The British Government has re-affirmed that Gibraltar is not for sale and will not be transferred to Spain it is remaining British. The Government want Gibraltar on the negotiationing table with leaving the EU:
> http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0ZW143
> 
> Regarding the Falklands that isn't a EU issue they are on the other side of the world and will remain British. None of our Islands are for sale or are being transferred to another nation.


What about our economy collapse though?


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> What about our economy collapse though?


What will they do about the 1000s of Spanish people who work in Gibraltar?

Being in the EU never kept the border open. The Spanish basically closed it in 2013 didn't they?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> What will they do about the 1000s of Spanish people who work in Gibraltar?
> 
> Being in the EU never kept the border open. The Spanish basically closed it in 2013 didn't they?


Kept the pedestrian crossing open..if queues...most workers cross walking or on bikes...
EU told Spanish off many times...cameras are installed...so there is evidence...
Spanish protested many times too.
It is very much Partido Popular that uses Gibraltar for propaganda.

PP just makes sure that coaches full of tourists and lorries with good are stopped.

Which is illegal and they were told by Brussels to back off. Free movement of goods etc...
Local council in La Linea wants everything open. They have 40% unemployment!!! So they really rely on income from our side.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> What about our economy collapse though?


I doubt very much this will happen.
The pound is up to levels before the referendum and the FTSE is stronger than all the other markets. It's more like the Euro may collapse and this has been said so many times by various sources.

The EU have stopped laughing at the UK now because they didn't think we would survive without them (The EU inward looking) and are now realising we will. We have 10 to 12 free trade deals lined up (This is the UK outward looking) with various countries outside the EU including:
Iceland
America
Canada
Mexico
Australia
New Zealand
China
South Korea
India
Pakistan etc
Britain is now open to the world not just 27 member states who can't make their minds up when seeking new trade deals. Canada has been on hold with the EU for years because Greece blocked the trade deal over the naming of Feta cheese. The UK has the opportunity to snap up these trade deals the EU can't agree on and will leave the EU behind as the EU will lose out on these trade deals that have been on hold for years.

When I say UK I mean the entirety of the UK - England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Channel Islands, Isle of Man and everyone's favourite Gibraltar as well as our countries outside of the EU The Falkland Islands the ones the UK own.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> I doubt very much this will happen.
> The pound is up to levels before the referendum and the FTSE is stronger than all the other markets. It's more like the Euro may collapse and this has been said so many times by various sources..


I think Scrippy was referring to the Gibraltean economy, not the UK in general. 



stockwellcat said:


> The EU have stopped laughing at the UK now because *they didn't think we would survive without them*.


We haven't actually _left yet, _so at the moment it's still business as usual


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> I think Scrippy was referring to the Gibraltean economy, not the UK in general.
> 
> We haven't actually _left yet, _so at the moment it's still business as usual


Yes. I am afraid we already feel first cuts. No open air cinema this summer. Summer nights and sport program for kids cut down.
Plans for new schools shelved.
My dd im tears as her bbf leaving for Dublin with her parents.
2O mln for plans of new marina and housing estate...investors pulling out.
Gaming companies moving to Malta and Philippines...
EU funding was also important in restoration works...

So yes...32 thousand cannot just forage and live off grey mallet...


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> The pound is up to levels before the referendum.
> 
> The EU have stopped laughing at the UK now because they didn't think we would survive without them (The EU inward looking) and are now realising we will. We have 10 to 12 free trade deals lined up


Last I looked the pound was hovering at around $1.33. Before the referendum in was $1.47, so it's currently about 10% lower.

No-one in the EU, or anywhere else, thought the UK wouldn't 'survive' without the EU.

Trade deals 'lined up'? As in, I presume, countries have said they would like to have trade deals with us. Of course they would like to have trade deals with us, but they are hardy 'lined up'. We haven't even recruited any negotiators yet, let alone started talks.

By all means let's be positive about the future, but let's keep it within the realms of reality.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Last I looked the pound was hovering at around $1.33. Before the referendum in was $1.47, so it's currently about 10% lower.
> 
> No-one in the EU, or anywhere else, thought the UK wouldn't 'survive' without the EU.
> 
> Trade deals 'lined up'? As in, I presume, countries have said they would like to have trade deals with us. Of course they would like to have trade deals with us, but they are hardy 'lined up'. *We haven't even recruited any negotiators yet, let alone started talks.*
> 
> By all means let's be positive about the future, but let's keep it within the realms of reality.


Ermm what is Dr Liam Foxes Job?
What is he doing this week? Drumming up trade deals for the UK for when we leave the EU. Flying to Canada and US and then Australia. Mexico have already drawn up a draft deal btw.


----------



## MiloandTazzy

Canada used a team of 300 trade negotiators while sorting out its deal with the EU. Our government is looking to assemble a similar team, unfortunately all our current negotiators are employed by the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MiloandTazzy said:


> Canada used a team of 300 trade negotiators while sorting out its deal with the EU. Our government is looking to assemble a similar team, unfortunately all our current negotiators are employed by the EU.


Unlike the EU the UK won't have to get approval from 27 other member states and if one objects then the whole deal gets put on hold. I can't see the UK arguing over the labeling of a piece of cheese and putting the whole deal on hold. I think the UKs negotiations with Canada will go smoothly compared to the EU's attempt and then Greece puts the while deal on hold.

EDITED: Just found out Canada have said they want to complete the free trade deal with the EU first before considering the UK so the EU becomes EU-Canada. Oh well still plenty of more countries out there.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0ZY1VO


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Ermm what is Dr Liam Foxes Job?
> What is he doing this week? Drumming up trade deals for the UK for when we leave the EU. Flying to Canada and US and then Australia. Mexico have already drawn up a draft deal btw.


Fox's job is to get us international trade deals I expect, though I haven't seen the job description. Hopefully is talking in general and jolly friendly terms with all sorts of people about trade deals. But talking about trade deals is not the same as discussing the details of actual trade deals, for which you need trained negotiators with a full grasp of the minutiae. So let's hope he's recruiting some of those while he's travelling

And good for Mexico. That's the spirit! Not that we can sign any deals before leaving the EU, which is a few years off yet.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> EDITED: Just found out Canada have said they want to complete the free trade deal with the EU first before considering the UK so the EU becomes EU-Canada. Oh well still plenty of more countries out there.


Sounds great doesn't it from politicians but unlikely to work out that way in reality. There's a reason trade deals take 10+ years according to the WTO director and it's not due to the EU. It takes lawyers and experts in the field to negotiate it. The EU trade deal may be a good starting baseline but it will not be a case of copy and paste. Different products and priorities would be involved for a start. Maybe you should look at some of the talks by those who are actually involved in the legal process about trade deals and then you would realise they are not as simple as politicians would like to pretend.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Sounds great doesn't it from politicians but unlikely to work out that way in reality. There's a reason trade deals take 10+ years according to the WTO director and it's not due to the EU. It takes lawyers and experts in the field to negotiate it. The EU trade deal may be a good starting baseline but it will not be a case of copy and paste. Different products and priorities would be involved for a start. Maybe you should look at some of the talks by those who are actually involved in the legal process about trade deals and then you would realise they are not as simple as politicians would like to pretend.


----------



## samuelsmiles

We were warned/scareded into believing that technology products would rise steeply post Brexit.

Well, I've just seen an advert from Lenovo saying they were selling their tablets at their lowest ever price.

I think we should stop allowing the importing of Lenovo tablets into the UK until we find out what the hell is going on here!


----------



## stockwellcat.

EU getting desperate as they are scared that the UK will succeed outside of the EU.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/69...donesia-Britain-Brexit-Liam-Fox-EU-referendum

Looks like as well that the EU deal with Canada is collapsing Germany is now arguing with them saying CETA is unconstitutional and wanting to sue Brussels. What a mess this deal is in. Looks like trading with UK might be on the cards after all.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...A-trade-deal-Canada-peril-German-party-sue-EU

Sturgeon told Scotland has to leave the EU with UK and if wants to rejoin EU to reapply for EU membership by EU president.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-UK-only-reapply-independent-UK-politics-news

Repulic of Ireland is now looking to reunite with Northern Ireland after Brexit vote:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/69...ring-united-Ireland-Prime-Minister-Enda-Kenny

Yes this is one newspapers view but no doubt will be all over every newspaper tomorrow.

Yes I am a proud Brexitier.


----------



## Goblin

Stockwellcat, your source of information is a paper whose owner donated over £1m to the UKIP party and who was quite happy to lie throughout the leave campaign. Says a lot.

No details I notice about why the trade deal with Canada is having problems and what the issues are. What exactly is unconsitutional? Ever thought maybe if it's unconsitutional in Germany it could also be an issue in the UK?

Interesting though that they cannot avoid highlighting the main sticking point of the US deal is TTIP, which the UK government is quite happy with. Yet this was one of the campaign issues highlighted by the leave campaign. EU = TTIP they said.

Then there's the "Sneaky EU" title. It's funny how the text of the report shows that this has nothing to do BREXIT having started in April when nobody expected the referendum to vote to actually leave.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> EU getting desperate as they are scared that the UK will succeed outside of the EU.
> 
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/69...donesia-Britain-Brexit-Liam-Fox-EU-referendum
> 
> Looks like as well that the EU deal with Canada is collapsing Germany is now arguing with them saying CETA is unconstitutional and wanting to sue Brussels. What a mess this deal is in. Looks like trading with UK might be on the cards after all.
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...A-trade-deal-Canada-peril-German-party-sue-EU
> 
> Sturgeon told Scotland has to leave the EU with UK and if wants to rejoin EU to reapply for EU membership by EU president.
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-UK-only-reapply-independent-UK-politics-news
> 
> Repulic of Ireland is now looking to reunite with Northern Ireland after Brexit vote:
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/69...ring-united-Ireland-Prime-Minister-Enda-Kenny
> 
> Yes this is one newspapers view but no doubt will be all over every newspaper tomorrow.
> 
> Yes I am a proud Brexitier.


Not sure if mentioned in this thread already but for all the NHS doom-mongers, the president of the Royal College of Surgeons has declared that Brexit will improve patient safety in the NHS.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> Not sure if mentioned in this thread already but for all the NHS doom-mongers, the president of the Royal College of Surgeons has declared that Brexit will improve patient safety in the NHS.


That's the opinion of one man, lets hope he's right but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Stockwellcat, your source of information is a paper whose owner donated over £1m to the UKIP party and who was quite happy to lie throughout the leave campaign.
> 
> No details I notice about why the trade deal with Canada is having problems and what the issues are. What exactly is unconsitutional? Ever thought maybe if it's unconsitutional in Germany it could also be an issue in the UK?
> 
> Interesting though that they cannot avoid highlighting the main sticking point of the US deal is TTIP, which the UK government is quite happy with. Yet this was one of the campaign issues highlighted by the leave campaign. EU = TTIP they said.
> 
> Then there's the "Sneaky EU" title. It's funny how the text of the report shows that this has nothing to do BREXIT having started in April when nobody expected the referendum to vote to actually leave.


You will find Germany are suing Brussels over the CETA read the news article before picking on things I say.

The whole deal is now on hold again and Canada quite rightly are getting fed up.



> THE European Union's flagship trade deal with Canada was on the brink of collapse today after a Germany political party sued Brussels over its implementation.
> 
> Centre-left Die Linke has launched legal action to block the controversial Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) pact, saying it is unconstitutional under German law.



This was announced by a German center left party called Die Linke who are the source of this information. It may well be that Germany find it unconstitutional but it's no wonder the EU have problems sealing trade deals when 27 members can't agree to disagree. Why didn't Germany say that it was unconstitutional when the trade talks started all those years ago instead of bringing this out of the blue like this?

You may find when we are out of the EU we'll be making trade deals faster than the EU.

Regarding the paper daily express where is your proof that it supports UKIP? I was totally unaware of this.


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> That's the opinion of one man.


No it isn't, for one very obvious reason.


----------



## KittenKong

I find it incredible they've only started negotiations re trade deals with countries outside the EU after the referendum result, with the possible exception of the US if Trump wins the Presidency.

One would've thought this should have been done before taking the country to the polls.

Did they actually think why bother as Remain would win anyway?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding the paper daily express where is your proof that it supports UKIP? I was totally unaware of this.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...s-Chairman-Richard-Desmond-gives-1-3m-to-Ukip


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...s-Chairman-Richard-Desmond-gives-1-3m-to-Ukip


I honestly did not know this.
Thank you for the link.


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> I find it incredible they've only started negotiations re trade deals with countries outside the EU after the referendum result, with the possible exception of the US if Trump wins the Presidency.
> 
> One would've thought this should have been done before taking the country to the polls.
> 
> Did they actually think why bother as Remain would win anyway?


I think one of the problems is we don't have anywhere near enough trade negotiators to handle all the deals we now need top look at making. And it will take time to hire in foreign negotiators to do the work...


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Not sure if mentioned in this thread already but for all the NHS doom-mongers, the president of the Royal College of Surgeons has declared that Brexit will improve patient safety in the NHS.


More cherrypicking, I see. 

'Her' opinion is the minority. Shes received a huge backlash from Junior Doctors & other health professionals for that Telegraph article. And as a direct result it seems many are now jumping ship to the non bigoted RCSEd 










*Doctors reject college's call for return to longer hours*
*Authors: *Abi Rimmer

*Publication date:* 19 Jul 2016

Doctors have raised concerns after the president of the Royal College of Surgeons of England (RCS), Clare Marx, said that the European Working Time Directive prevented junior doctors from gaining enough training time.

Marx told the _Telegraph_ that removing the need to follow European Union working time rules when the United Kingdom leaves the EU would improve patient safety by allowing surgeons to undertake thousands of hours of extra training.[1] She said, "Because of the working time regulations it's been extremely difficult to get surgeons enough training."

Marx continued, "We have progressively seen doctors anxious because they are not getting enough hours. To get good at something you need repetitive experience in a training environment."

In response to her comments, doctors used social media to raise concerns. Commenting on

Twitter, Tom Jacques, a specialty registrar in ear, nose, and throat surgery, said, "Disappointed at the regressive opinions expressed by [the RCS]. Trainee surgeons do not want return to bad old days."[2]

Roshana Mehdian, an orthopaedic registrar, said, "Please clarify [Clare Marx] your plan on removing working safeguards that keep patients safe to overwork surgeons?"[3] Also commenting on Twitter, Alistair Maddock, an anaesthetic registrar, said, "Wow. Surgeons to return to working [more than] 48-hour weeks? I thought we'd realised that was neither safe nor productive."[4]

_Ben Dean, a junior doctor, said, "Clare Marx's crusty 1980s opinion which blames poor training for EWTD is erroneous-it also ignores that her college is largely to blame."__[5]_

Jacob Bayliss said that he was withdrawing his membership of the RCS._ "I find Clare Marx's comments today pretty offensive and have moved my membership to the Edinburgh College,"_ he said on Twitter.[6]

The RCS, responding to the _Telegraph_ article, said in a statement, "To be clear, neither the president nor the College support a return to excessive working hours." The college said that its most recent position was to support the recommendations published by the EWTD taskforce in 2014.

It said, "This noted, the EWTD has had a beneficial impact in terms of preventing doctors from working very long hours and jeopardising patient safety through fatigue. But the taskforce also argued for greater flexibility in working patterns to help the quality of training and continuity of patient care."[7]

The statement added, "Under no circumstances would the College support a return to a culture of long working hours. That would not be beneficial for patients or NHS staff. The EWTD is also only one aspect of the problems underlying the quality of training which currently needs to be addressed."

The college said that over the coming weeks it would form a more detailed position on the areas of legislative change that it wished to see post-Brexit and would provide further details at that point.

During the interview with the _Telegraph_ Marx urged health bosses to toughen up English language entry tests for doctors and said that Brexit could enable the UK to enforce a higher quality of surgical tools and instruments.

In response the college said, "The RCS believes there are a number of areas such as medical devices and language testing where there is now an opportunity to set tougher rules to improve patient safety."



stockwellcat said:


> You will find Germany are suing Brussels over the CETA read the news article before picking on things I say.
> 
> The whole deal is now on hold again and Canada quite rightly are getting fed up.
> 
> 
> This was announced by a German center left party called Die Linke who are the source of this information. It may well be that Germany find it unconstitutional but it's no wonder the EU have problems sealing trade deals when 27 members can't agree to disagree. Why didn't Germany say that it was unconstitutional when the trade talks started all those years ago instead of bringing this out of the blue like this?
> 
> You may find when we are out of the EU we'll be making trade deals faster than the EU.
> 
> Regarding the paper daily express where is your proof that it supports UKIP? I was totally unaware of this.


This is FANTASTIC news for Europe. Well done Germany!

Perhaps the German government are finally listening to those they are supposed to represent - ordinary people? CETA would be a catastrophe for them, for the environment, for democracy.

The photo below depicts 250,000 German citizens saying NO to corporate trade deals like CETA & TTIP. This rotten tory government of ours will have us locked into such free trade agreements at the first opportunity. 'Taking our country back' my ass! Handing it over lock, stock & barrel to faceless corporations more like! Caroline Lucas & environmentalists did warn us we had a far better chance of derailing CETA/TTIP if we stayed in the EU rather than go it alone with a government crammed full of freemarketeers. Oh well.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> More cherrypicking, I see.
> 
> 'Her' opinion is the minority. Shes received a huge backlash from Junior Doctors & other health professionals for that Telegraph article. And as a direct result it seems many are now jumping ship to the non bigoted RCSEd
> 
> View attachment 277798
> 
> 
> *Doctors reject college's call for return to longer hours*
> *Authors: *Abi Rimmer
> 
> *Publication date:* 19 Jul 2016
> 
> Doctors have raised concerns after the president of the Royal College of Surgeons of England (RCS), Clare Marx, said that the European Working Time Directive prevented junior doctors from gaining enough training time.
> 
> Marx told the _Telegraph_ that removing the need to follow European Union working time rules when the United Kingdom leaves the EU would improve patient safety by allowing surgeons to undertake thousands of hours of extra training.[1] She said, "Because of the working time regulations it's been extremely difficult to get surgeons enough training."
> 
> Marx continued, "We have progressively seen doctors anxious because they are not getting enough hours. To get good at something you need repetitive experience in a training environment."
> 
> In response to her comments, doctors used social media to raise concerns. Commenting on
> 
> Twitter, Tom Jacques, a specialty registrar in ear, nose, and throat surgery, said, "Disappointed at the regressive opinions expressed by [the RCS]. Trainee surgeons do not want return to bad old days."[2]
> 
> Roshana Mehdian, an orthopaedic registrar, said, "Please clarify [Clare Marx] your plan on removing working safeguards that keep patients safe to overwork surgeons?"[3] Also commenting on Twitter, Alistair Maddock, an anaesthetic registrar, said, "Wow. Surgeons to return to working [more than] 48-hour weeks? I thought we'd realised that was neither safe nor productive."[4]
> 
> _Ben Dean, a junior doctor, said, "Clare Marx's crusty 1980s opinion which blames poor training for EWTD is erroneous-it also ignores that her college is largely to blame."__[5]_
> 
> Jacob Bayliss said that he was withdrawing his membership of the RCS._ "I find Clare Marx's comments today pretty offensive and have moved my membership to the Edinburgh College,"_ he said on Twitter.[6]
> 
> The RCS, responding to the _Telegraph_ article, said in a statement, "To be clear, neither the president nor the College support a return to excessive working hours." The college said that its most recent position was to support the recommendations published by the EWTD taskforce in 2014.
> 
> It said, "This noted, the EWTD has had a beneficial impact in terms of preventing doctors from working very long hours and jeopardising patient safety through fatigue. But the taskforce also argued for greater flexibility in working patterns to help the quality of training and continuity of patient care."[7]
> 
> The statement added, "Under no circumstances would the College support a return to a culture of long working hours. That would not be beneficial for patients or NHS staff. The EWTD is also only one aspect of the problems underlying the quality of training which currently needs to be addressed."
> 
> The college said that over the coming weeks it would form a more detailed position on the areas of legislative change that it wished to see post-Brexit and would provide further details at that point.
> 
> During the interview with the _Telegraph_ Marx urged health bosses to toughen up English language entry tests for doctors and said that Brexit could enable the UK to enforce a higher quality of surgical tools and instruments.
> 
> In response the college said, "The RCS believes there are a number of areas such as medical devices and language testing where there is now an opportunity to set tougher rules to improve patient safety."
> 
> This is FANTASTIC news for Europe. Well done Germany!
> 
> Perhaps the German government are finally listening to those they are supposed to represent - ordinary people? CETA would be a catastrophe for them, for the environment, for democracy.
> 
> The photo below depicts 250,000 German citizens saying NO to corporate trade deals like CETA & TTIP. This rotten tory government of ours will have us locked into such free trade agreements at the first opportunity. 'Taking our country back' my ass! Handing it over lock, stock & barrel to faceless corporations more like! Caroline Lucas & environmentalists did warn us we had a far better chance of derailing CETA/TTIP if we stayed in the EU rather than go it alone with a government crammed full of freemarketeers. Oh well.
> 
> View attachment 277801


Yes. They would take control .

Corporations. Making even more money for their owners. Smart Germans. Stupid us.

Yes. I am.very disappointed in Corbyn and Trade Unions. Didn't they think about it?

But then...somehow always was not convinced about Corbyn...
There are moments when sitting on the fence is morally wrong.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Doctors have raised concerns after the president of the Royal College of Surgeons of England (RCS), Clare Marx, said that the European Working Time Directive prevented junior doctors from gaining enough training time.
> 
> Marx told the _Telegraph_ that removing the need to follow European Union working time rules when the United Kingdom leaves the EU would improve patient safety by allowing surgeons to undertake thousands of hours of extra training.[1] She said, "Because of the working time regulations it's been extremely difficult to get surgeons enough training."
> 
> Marx continued, "We have progressively seen doctors anxious because they are not getting enough hours. To get good at something you need repetitive experience in a training environment."
> 
> In response to her comments, doctors used social media to raise concerns. Commenting on
> 
> Twitter, Tom Jacques, a specialty registrar in ear, nose, and throat surgery, said, "Disappointed at the regressive opinions expressed by [the RCS]. Trainee surgeons do not want return to bad old days."[2]
> 
> Roshana Mehdian, an orthopaedic registrar, said, "Please clarify [Clare Marx] your plan on removing working safeguards that keep patients safe to overwork surgeons?"[3] Also commenting on Twitter, Alistair Maddock, an anaesthetic registrar, said, "Wow. Surgeons to return to working [more than] 48-hour weeks? I thought we'd realised that was neither safe nor productive."[4]
> 
> _Ben Dean, a junior doctor, said, "Clare Marx's crusty 1980s opinion which blames poor training for EWTD is erroneous-it also ignores that her college is largely to blame."__[5]_
> 
> Jacob Bayliss said that he was withdrawing his membership of the RCS._ "I find Clare Marx's comments today pretty offensive and have moved my membership to the Edinburgh College,"_ he said on Twitter.[6]
> 
> The RCS, responding to the _Telegraph_ article, said in a statement, "To be clear, neither the president nor the College support a return to excessive working hours." The college said that its most recent position was to support the recommendations published by the EWTD taskforce in 2014.
> 
> It said, "This noted, the EWTD has had a beneficial impact in terms of preventing doctors from working very long hours and jeopardising patient safety through fatigue. But the taskforce also argued for greater flexibility in working patterns to help the quality of training and continuity of patient care."[7]
> 
> The statement added, "Under no circumstances would the College support a return to a culture of long working hours. That would not be beneficial for patients or NHS staff. The EWTD is also only one aspect of the problems underlying the quality of training which currently needs to be addressed."


A little bit of hard work never hurt anyone.


----------



## Jesthar

Satori said:


> A little bit of hard work never hurt anyone.


So you'd like someone who has been at work for 80+ hours over the previous seven days in a high stress job, having at that precise moment in time been on their feet for 28 hours straight barring a 30 minute nap, operating on you or someone you love?

Or to put it another way, how about engaging some common sense and compassion before posting a glib reply? In the heath service, overwork and tiredness costs lives - _other people's lives_. Many NHS staff already put in a dozen unpaid hours a week just to keep things ticking over, so they have the 'hard work' thing more than covered - they don't ask easy or they wouldn't have picked medicine as a career.

And before you go down the 'it's just a joke' route, the playing of exhaustion roulette with patients is never a joking matter. I've been noting your snarky, I'm-alright-jack replies to those genuinely worried about aspects Brexit, and you aren't funny in the slightest. It's perfectly possible to be gracious in victory as well as in defeat, you know - and there's no point talking about disappointed Leave voters being bad losers if you're going to be something even worse - a bad winner.


----------



## Satori

Jesthar said:


> So you'd like someone who has been at work for 80+ hours over the previous seven days in a high stress job, having at that precise moment in time been on their feet for 28 hours straight barring a 30 minute nap, operating on you or someone you love?
> 
> Or to put it another way, how about engaging some common sense and compassion before posting a glib reply? In the heath service, overwork and tiredness costs lives - _other people's lives_. Many NHS staff already put in a dozen unpaid hours a week just to keep things ticking over, so they have the 'hard work' thing more than covered - they don't ask easy or they wouldn't have picked medicine as a career.
> 
> And before you go down the 'it's just a joke' route, the playing of exhaustion roulette with patients is never a joking matter. I've been noting your snarky, I'm-alright-jack replies to those genuinely worried about aspects Brexit, and you aren't funny in the slightest. It's perfectly possible to be gracious in victory as well as in defeat, you know - and there's no point talking about disappointed Leave voters being bad losers if you're going to be something even worse - a bad winner.


I'll take the view of the president of the RCS over your's, sorry. The cream rises to the top for a reason.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36842940

Re UKIP counsellor's apology on "joking" on social media Remain voters should be killed.......


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> You will find Germany are suing Brussels over the CETA read the news article before picking on things I say.


Did read it, a simple abbreviation saying a Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement doesn't exactly list the reasoning as to why it would be unconsitutional does it. Unlike some I prefer to know some necessary details.



> Regarding the paper daily express where is your proof that it supports UKIP? I was totally unaware of this.


You don't check on up on your sources at all?



Satori said:


> Not sure if mentioned in this thread already but for all the NHS doom-mongers, the president of the Royal College of Surgeons has declared that Brexit will improve patient safety in the NHS.


Saw that, main emphasis was on language skills rather than tools and equipment. Nothing about the EU which dictates that people have to be employed even if their language skills are not up to scratch. In addition how many of these people come from the EU in the first place? So please explain what it has to do with BREXIT other than it's yet another lie and propaganda effort? As for tools and equipment I'd love to know exactly how they could be improved. Only way I can see is by not conforming to EU minimum standards.



Satori said:


> I'll take the view of the president of the RCS over your's, sorry. The cream rises to the top for a reason.


It's called politics and who you know at that level. Also helps, if it were a man if they play golf


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> *Did read it, a simple abbreviation saying a Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement doesn't exactly list the reasoning as to why it would be unconsitutional does it. Unlike some I prefer to know some necessary details.*
> 
> 
> You don't check on up on your sources at all?
> 
> Saw that, main emphasis was on language skills rather than tools and equipment. Nothing about the EU which dictates that people have to be employed even if their language skills are not up to scratch. In addition how many of these people come from the EU in the first place? So please explain what it has to do with BREXIT other than it's yet another lie and propaganda effort? As for tools and equipment I'd love to know exactly how they could be improved. Only way I can see is by not conforming to EU minimum standards.
> 
> It's called politics and who you know at that level. Also helps, if it were a man if they play golf


Ask the centre left group this information has been supplied by in Germany to the newspaper. I don't know do I. I only spotted this on the newspaper.

Don't you think that it is encouraging that your adopted leader Merkel @Goblin wants a close bond with the UK outside of Brexit source of information:
http://news.sky.com/story/merkel-close-bond-with-uk-will-help-brexit-10507454

I think this is encouraging news.

Also Tusk has changed his stance as well saying he wants a velvet divorce with the UK, it's funny how his stance has changed since Cameron has left and we have a female PM now.

As Theresa May said today in Parliament we are leaving the EU not Europe. She got to this absolutely right.

There is no reason why we can't still share intelligence, fight terrorism and be allies with other European Countries or still have a trade deal in place. The main reason why people voted leave is because we want to take back control of our borders and restrict the amount of people coming over here every year from the 100's of thousands to a more realistic figure of in the tens of thousands. The PM and her ministers have said we aren't budging on this during the negotiations. Plus we are now open to the world for business and not just restricted to the EU when we leave the EU.


----------



## Zaros

Satori said:


> I'll take the view of the president of the RCS over your's, sorry.* The cream rises to the top* for a reason.


Aye and sh1t floats too.:Smug


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> Aye and sh1t floats too.:Smug


Speak for yourself - floaters are not desirable and may indicate malabsorption or excessive gas


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> I find it incredible they've only started negotiations re trade deals with countries outside the EU after the referendum result, with the possible exception of the US if Trump wins the Presidency.
> 
> One would've thought this should have been done before taking the country to the polls.
> 
> Did they actually think why bother as Remain would win anyway?


The foreign affairs select committee said pretty much the same thing today, opining that Cameron's government was "grossly negligent" in not doing any work on the exit scenario essentially because they were so sure that they would win.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> There is no reason why we can't still share intelligence, fight terrorism and be allies with other European Countries or still have a trade deal in place.


Which will not be as complex or comprehensive as the EU one. Trade deals are far more than simply tariffs. Suddenly we can have a trade deal with the EU yet the EU can't produce one for Canada. Your arguments seem to contradict each other.



> The main reason why people voted leave is because we want to take back control of our borders and restrict the amount of people coming over here every year from the 100's of thousands to a more realistic figure of in the tens of thousands. The PM and her ministers have said we aren't budging on this during the negotiations. Plus we are now open to the world for business and not just restricted to the EU when we leave the EU.


You really need me to post the videos after the referendum of the BREXIT'ers saying how it will not allow us to control the numbers, majority of whom aren't anything to do with the EU. Isn't it also strange that throughout our time in the EU we traded outside the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Which will not be as complex or comprehensive as the EU one. Trade deals are far more than simply tariffs. Suddenly we can have a trade deal with the EU yet the EU can't produce one for Canada. Your arguments seem to contradict each other.
> 
> You really need me to post the videos after the referendum of the BREXIT'ers saying how it will not allow us to control the numbers, majority of whom aren't anything to do with the EU. Isn't it also strange that throughout our time in the EU we traded outside the EU.


Get off your high horse or ride it around Germany.
Theresa May has said this over and over again. So go and post your negative speel on Brexit somewhere else. It is happening you like it or not. Theresa May mentioned it in Parliament today and to Merkel, shows how much you follow the news.

Only you can wind me up and that is why I am blocking you. I have tried being civil with you.

Oh no @Satori I have just fell out with someone over Brexit who doesn't even live in the UK and it doesn't affect them @Goblin.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> Oh no @Satori I have just fell out with someone over Brexit who doesn't even live in the UK and it doesn't affect them @Goblin.


Off to the naughty step with you...


----------



## KittenKong

With the greatest of respect I think Goblin made a valid point.

I feel he has every right to express his point of view, as you have.

My comments have nothing to do with my own views on Brexit which are well known by now. 

I understand Goblin is British, living in Germany so it could well affect him.

I fell out with a few people during the referendum campaign but now realise life is too short. People have their reasons for backing remain or leave. We have to accept that even if we don't agree.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> With the greatest of respect I think Goblin made a valid point.
> 
> I feel he has every right to express his point of view, as you have.
> 
> My comments have nothing to do with my own views on Brexit which are well known by now.
> 
> I understand Goblin is British, living in Germany so it could well affect him.
> 
> I fell out with a few people during the referendum campaign but realise life is too short. People have their reasons for backing remain or leave. We have to accept that even if we don't agree.


I understand he may well be a Brit living abroad but from what I understand he is a bit upset because he was one of the few that was barred from being able to vote in the EU referendum due to being abroad longer than 15 years, which in technicality means they have no intention of returning to the UK to live, he prefers living in Germany but is the first to complain at a Brexit vote.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I love the remainder trying to put down the Brexitiers thinking they are superior above us.


Conversely many Brexiters think the same about Remainers, bragging, calling them sore losers and the likes. A UKIP councillor joked about having them killed which he was forced to apologise for.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...ntil-article-50-invoked/ar-BBuzxDV?li=BBoPWjQ

I personally don't consider myself to be better nor worse than anyone. Some friends of mine voted leave, they had their reasons as much as I had my reasons for voting remain.

We have to respect that, and Brexit will happen whether we like it or not.


----------



## Zaros

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Speak for yourself - *floaters are not desirable and may indicate* malabsorption or *excessive gas*


Yep! You got it. That's a Tory for you.:Wacky


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Get off your high horse or ride it around Germany.
> Theresa May has said this over and over again. So go and post your negative speel on Brexit somewhere else. It is happening you like it or not.


Theresa May is a politician.



stockwellcat said:


> I understand he may well be a Brit living abroad but from what I understand he is a bit upset because he was one of the few that was barred from being able to vote in the EU referendum due to being abroad longer than 15 years, which in technicality means they have no intention of returning to the UK to live, he prefers living in Germany but is the first to complain at a Brexit vote.


No it doesn't mean I have no intention of returning. It means my family is settled at the current time with one at school. Doesn't stop the rest of my family in the UK being affected. Doesn't stop my friends in the UK being affected. Doesn't mean my immediate family will not be affected. Daughter may want to study in the UK in fact before BREXIT I could have hoped for that. With all the racism shown by the leave campaign however that seems to not be an option we would want to push. The result could also unstabilise the rest of the EU which would directly affect me.

BREXIT will happen unfortunately. What I regret most is what it has shown so much negatively about the british people including how they are happy to be lied to by politicians.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> Yep! You got it. That's a Tory for you.:Wacky


Nah, floaters are more your middle of the road wishy washy liberal types 



Goblin said:


> BREXIT will happen unfortunately. What I regret most is what it has shown so much negatively about the british people including how they are happy to be lied to by politicians.


Who is happy to be lied to by politicians? Which particular politicians? Who says people who voted leave did so because of anything politicians said or did not say?


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="KittenKong, post: 1064600439, member

We have to respect that, and Brexit will happen whether we like it or not.[/QUOTE]

That doesn't mean we're all happy nor can ever be enthusiastic about it though which I and many others feel. I doubt very much Merkel will be Chancellor this time next year. Whose to say a new one won't be hostile to the British? Who knows?

Stockwellcat: Your elation and enthusiasm for Brexit reminds me of the way I felt when Labour won the General Election after 18 years of Tory rule. With their landslide victory I felt the North of England had a voice at last.

At the time I couldn't contain my enthusiasm so it came as a big surprise when a friend who usually didn't talk politics told me how upset he was that John Major lost that election! Even when the Labour government made great achievements in my view he remained negative and dismissive about them.

I had to remember and respect not everyone shared my enthusiasm and tried to understand his point of view though we had to agree to disagree.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Nah, floaters are more your middle of the road wishy washy liberal types
> 
> Who is happy to be lied to by politicians? Which particular politicians? *Who says people who voted leave did so because of anything politicians said or did not say?*


I had made my mind up well before the referendum so it didn't matter what was said by politicians on TV, in public or what anyone else said quit frankly. So no one lied to me or mislead me. But it seems because I had already made my mind up I have been indirectly labeled racist, xenophobic, uncaring , thick and stupid and I am afraid to tell those that think Brexiters are those names above I am none of the above.

I seem to be not able to have an opinion because all of a sudden as I am lower than everyone else because they voted remain.

Let the politicians get on with what they have been directed to do from *17,410,752** people*. I think the remain voters should be more concerned about how silly people behaved at the ballot box, blank ballot sheets, x's in both boxes, voting leave because they thought it was funny or the leave campaign wouldn't win etc. 25,359 rejected ballot sheets all together: http://www.electoralcommission.org....u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information (although these where rejected they would never have made an impact on the overall result).

Brexit isn't happening this year, in fact article 50 is not being invoked this year (2016) and Merkel is backing May on this (as a source of information as proof of what I say, today I have chosen the Guardian newspaper: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...esa-mays-plan-not-to-trigger-brexit-this-year but I feel I will now get a comment saying the Guardian this or the Guardian that).

This is a huge task and as May said we only have one chance to get it right so has to be carefully thought through. The EU are going to have to be patient and calm down.

We have had two female Prime Ministers in my life time, one made the mistake of indirectly signing the UK up to the EU through the single market which later became a greedy power grabbing hub called the EU. The second female Prime Minister has the pleasure of taking us out of the EU not Europe.


----------



## Zaros

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Nah, floaters are more your middle of the road wishy washy liberal types


As I stated earlier, I don't cling to any particular political view, leftist, rightist or middle of the roadist, there's not a bone to pick between them. But if there was, then they should all be beaten quite severely with it.
Or until, at least, they came to our senses.:Smuggrin

But here's an amusing little tale nd somewhat related, I think you'll find.

Before jumping that now seemingly scuttled ship, I was stricken with a serious GI problem. So serious in fact, I honestly believed my life had reached its terminus.
I underwent this test and then that test and then another test to test the test they'd already tested for:Meh
But prior to all this intrusive prodding and poking the GI specialist sat me down and asked the following question; 'What colour are your Tories?'

From that point on, it has always intrigued me as to the reasons why he made the comparison/connection between a Conservative member of parliament and the metabolic waste of an animal's digestive system


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Who is happy to be lied to by politicians?


Seems to be a majority at the moment.



> Which particular politicians? Who says people who voted leave did so because of anything politicians said or did not say?


Simply look at the posts on this forum to see how people were influenced and the arguments made. Remember that line from Gove... "I think we've all had enough of experts". That sums up the campaign. Ignore experts listen to spin.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> As I stated earlier, I don't cling to any particular political view, leftist, rightist or middle of the roadist, there's not a bone to pick between them. But if there was, then they should all be beaten quite severely with it.
> Or until, at least, they came to our senses.:Smuggrin
> 
> But here's an amusing little tale nd somewhat related, I think you'll find.
> 
> Before jumping that now seemingly scuttled ship, I was stricken with a serious GI problem. So serious in fact, I honestly believed my life had reached its terminus.
> I underwent this test and then that test and then another test to test the test they'd already tested for:Meh
> But prior to all this intrusive prodding and poking the GI specialist sat me down and asked the following question; 'What colour are your Tories?'
> 
> From that point on, it has always intrigued me as to the reasons why he made the comparison/connection between a Conservative member of parliament and the metabolic waste of an animal's digestive system


:Hilarious:Hilarious Well thats a new one on me - many years spent working on a bowel surgery ward and observing/exploring many turds and never heard them called that. He must have been a leftie :Joyful



Goblin said:


> Seems to be a majority at the moment.
> 
> Simply look at the posts on this forum to see how people were influenced and the arguments made. Remember that line from Gove... "I think we've all had enough of experts". That sums up the campaign. Ignore experts listen to spin.


Sorry but how do you know how many people even listened to politicians? I think these days their reputation is in the gutter and most people take no notice of anything they say. It will be refreshing if we actually end up with a Prime Minister who tells the truth and does what she says but despite feeling optimistic and positive I will believe it when it happens. Trouble is experts spin along with the rest of them so it is so difficult to trust anyone else. Everyone has a hidden agenda. I am however getting pretty fed up with people who voted remain constantly telling me why I voted leave, who influenced me and what lies I must have believed. Its rather patronising whether intended or not.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :. I am however getting pretty fed up with people who voted remain constantly telling me why I voted leave, who influenced me and what lies I must have believed. Its rather patronising whether intended or not.


I don't think it was intended to mean everyone who voted leave did so due to politicians and of course the press, the majority of which did back leave of course.

As Stockwellcat said her mind was made up before the campaign as mine was to back remain. Nothing could change our minds on that regardless of any lies or scaremongering from the politicians.

This applies to a lot of people but sadly others are taken in by what they are told and by the press, The Sun in particular.

Both campaigns were a disgrace to put it mildly.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> I don't think it was intended to mean everyone who voted leave did so due to politicians and of course the press, the majority of which did back leave of course.
> 
> As Stockwellcat said her mind was made up before the campaign as mine was to back remain. Nothing could change our minds on that regardless of any lies or scaremongering from the politicians.
> 
> This applies to a lot of people but sadly others are taken in by what they are told and by the press, The Sun in particular.
> 
> Both campaigns were a disgrace to put it mildly.


Yes I should have clarified I didn't mean @Goblin personally - more in general - there seems to be so much talk about people who voted to leave having been taken in by lies from politicians whereas in reality I don't think many of us take much notice of them anymore. They really need to buck their ideas up or they will fast become obsolete


----------



## Goblin

Rottiepointerhouse, plenty of people believe politicians and those who do not latch onto their lies when spread by others. Repeat a lie often enough... Again you only have to see these forum threads to see the evidence.

There are several problems which are fundamental when it comes to the UK. Politicians/Media control is a major one and we shouldn't forget the media when talking about this. Stockwellcat not being aware of the express bias is an excellent example. Gove's wife is an actual columnist for the Daily Fail. I could easily go on. Another interesting point to make about the media is that according to a freedom of the press rating of 180 countries, the UK only comes 38th behind Uraguay and Ghana which is a scary thought .

The other problem is far more unrecognised. The UK has an island mentality enhanced by it's history of the British Empire. I'm aware that I have the same mentality but living abroad actually made me aware of it. One of the problems with our relationship with EU was that we simply didn't engage in it as a nation. Can't remember who highlighted it but how many people actually know who their local MP is? Answer is not that many. How many people know who their MEP is? Answer is going to be almost none. I could give examples throughout the campaign of it being set as Germany vs Us. Merkal imposing will as we won WWII etc and couldn't beat us. At the core level, despite the words saying we are part of europe, we have never really been. Now we are putting up the walls again, not physically but mentally.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Goblin said:


> Rottiepointerhouse, plenty of people believe politicians and those who do not latch onto their lies when spread by others. Repeat a lie often enough... Again you only have to see these forum threads to see the evidence.
> 
> There are several problems which are fundamental when it comes to the UK. Politicians/Media control is a major one and we shouldn't forget the media when talking about this. Stockwellcat not being aware of the express bias is an excellent example. Gove's wife is an actual columnist for the Daily Fail. I could easily go on. Another interesting point to make about the media is that according to a freedom of the press rating of 180 countries, the UK only comes 38th behind Uraguay and Ghana which is a scary thought .
> 
> The other problem is far more unrecognised. The UK has an island mentality enhanced by it's history of the British Empire. I'm aware that I have the same mentality but living abroad actually made me aware of it. One of the problems with our relationship with EU was that we simply didn't engage in it as a nation. Can't remember who highlighted it but how many people actually know who their local MP is? Answer is not that many. How many people know who their MEP is? Answer is going to be almost none. I could give examples throughout the campaign of it being set as Germany vs Us. Merkal imposing will as we won WWII etc and couldn't beat us. At the core level, despite the words saying we are part of europe, we have never really been. Now we are putting up the walls again, not physically but mentally.


So given that the UK has an island mentality and has never really engaged with the EU as a nation is shouldn't really be surprising that the majority of us opted to leave


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So given that the UK has an island mentality and has never really engaged with the EU as a nation is shouldn't really be surprising that the majority of us opted to leave


I said from the start leaving was likely as soon as the referendum was announced. The main thing keeping people voting remain was always going to be worry about change or apathy. Facts were always likely to be ignored. EU has been a scapegoat for bad UK decisions for years and we've all heard the jokes. Was surprised and hopeful when the polling indicated remain was so strong at the start though.


----------



## Satori

I don't know anybody who was influenced in their vote by the campaign claims on either side nor do I know _*of*_ anybody who was so influenced.

I have heard / read many chatterers claiming that 'people' were taken in by some of the silly statements made by the campaigns but by 'people' they mean 'other people' which is just shorthand for 'people not quite so smart as me'.

What I have not noticed is anybody saying that they personally were taken in by the campaign propaganda, not on MMS and not on this forum. So I don't know who all those daft beggars are supposed to be. I doubt there are many of them though.


----------



## Arnie83

I'm sure no-one on this site was influenced by any of the antics of either side. 

But the campaign teams undertake research and polling all through the campaign. The 'leave' side will have been very aware of the effects of the £350m lie, just as the 'remain' side would have known the effect of their pessimistic predictions. They would certainly have majored on those which had the most effect.

So while they fooled no-one on here, it's fair to conclude that there were a significant number elsewhere who were influenced.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure no-one on this site was influenced by any of the antics of either side.
> 
> But the campaign teams undertake research and polling all through the campaign. The 'leave' side will have been very aware of the effects of the £350m lie, just as the 'remain' side would have known the effect of their pessimistic predictions. They would certainly have majored on those which had the most effect.
> *
> So while they fooled no-one on here, it's fair to conclude that there were a significant number elsewhere who were influenced*.


But why is it fair to conclude that? what do they base their opinion of how much effect they are having on? opinion polls? has anyone on here ever been asked how they are going to vote or what is influencing how they are going to vote? Nobody I know has been asked so who do they ask? how do they select who they are going to ask and who decides the question they will ask and its loading?


----------



## KATZ1355

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure no-one on this site was influenced by any of the antics of either side.
> 
> But the campaign teams undertake research and polling all through the campaign. The 'leave' side will have been very aware of the effects of the £350m lie, just as the 'remain' side would have known the effect of their pessimistic predictions. They would certainly have majored on those which had the most effect.
> 
> So while they fooled no-one on here, it's fair to conclude that there were a significant number elsewhere who were influenced.


We all made a choice, freedom of speech, which a lot of countries do not have - so let us just wait and see, after all, there has to be something better for us all - we should not be dictated to by anyone!


----------



## KATZ1355

Satori said:


> I don't know anybody who was influenced in their vote by the campaign claims on either side nor do I know _*of*_ anybody who was so influenced.
> 
> I have heard / read many chatterers claiming that 'people' were taken in by some of the silly statements made by the campaigns but by 'people' they mean 'other people' which is just shorthand for 'people not quite so smart as me'.
> 
> What I have not noticed is anybody saying that they personally were taken in by the campaign propaganda, not on MMS and not on this forum. So I don't know who all those daft beggars are supposed to be. I doubt there are many of them though.


I am quite amazed as I thought this site was all about ANIMALS - well I'm in and can chat about any subject x


----------



## KATZ1355

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But why is it fair to conclude that? what do they base their opinion of how much effect they are having on? opinion polls? has anyone on here ever been asked how they are going to vote or what is influencing how they are going to vote? Nobody I know has been asked so who do they ask? how do they select who they are going to ask and who decides the question they will ask and its loading?


Before and since BREXIT there has been so much unrest with all parties - it will take time to sort it all out!


----------



## KATZ1355

Goblin said:


> I said from the start leaving was likely as soon as the referendum was announced. The main thing keeping people voting remain was always going to be worry about change or apathy. Facts were always likely to be ignored. EU has been a scapegoat for bad UK decisions for years and we've all heard the jokes. Was surprised and hopeful when the polling indicated remain was so strong at the start though.[/QUhttp://www.vernoncoleman.com/howthebritishmedia.htm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Happy Paws2

KATZ1355 said:


> I am quite amazed as I thought this site was all about ANIMALS - well I'm in and can chat about any subject x


Yes it is, but in General Chat we talk about anything and everything.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But why is it fair to conclude that? what do they base their opinion of how much effect they are having on? opinion polls? has anyone on here ever been asked how they are going to vote or what is influencing how they are going to vote? Nobody I know has been asked so who do they ask? how do they select who they are going to ask and who decides the question they will ask and its loading?


I know people who certainly were though.
I'm sure Remain would've won had The Sun backed their campaign.

Sad really when you come to think of it that 1) Some can't make up their minds and rely on Newspapers (should be renamed Opinion Papers) to tell them how to vote and 2). Such papers appear to have the power to influence outcomes of general elections and referendums it makes you wonder who really is running the country.


----------



## kimthecat

KATZ1355 said:


> I am quite amazed as I thought this site was all about ANIMALS - well I'm in and can chat about any subject x


 It has been very lively is this section recently . I must admit to often not making it past General Chat as it has been taking up a lot of time .


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> I know people who certainly were though.
> I'm sure Remain would've won had The Sun backed their campaign.
> 
> Sad really when you come to think of it that 1) Some can't make up their minds and rely on Newspapers (should be renamed Opinion Papers) to tell them how to vote and 2). Such papers have the power to influence outcomes of general elections and referendums it makes you wonder who really is running the country.


You give The Sun a lot more credit than they deserve and more power than I believe they have. How do you (in general) know how much influence the newspaper people buy influences how they vote?


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Satori:

A little bit of hard work never hurt anyone.

/QUOTE
.
.
FYI, Satori, I'm one of those healthcare workers, & while I don't live in the UK, i'm more than familiar with the hazards of overwork & consequent risks to patients / clients. It doesn't matter how complete Ur education, or where U got Ur training, if in a moment of fuzzy-brained exhaustion, U make a critical error - what Rx, what dosage, how often, with or w/o food, what foods / drinks / other meds are OK with that medicine [or NOT okay with it], & so forth.
Ppl have *died as a direct result of being cared for, monitored, or surgically operated on by overtired care providers. *Those who don't die don't get off scot-free; completely avoidable medical crises, or lifelong after-effects such as paralysis, epilepsy, blindness, a stroke, or simply amputating the wrong limb, are also results of exhausted care providers making mistakes - that they'd never make, IF they were well-rested.
.
There are multiple studies that quantify the increase in errors associated with medical staff being overtired & not thinking clearly - feel free to look for Urself, preferably before U make any more asinine cracks about "a little hard work".
The potentially-catastrophic effects on patients aren't material for jokes.
.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

QUOTE, Jesthar:

So you'd like someone who has been at work for 80+ hours over the previous seven days in a high stress job, 
having at that precise moment in time been on their feet for 28-hours straight (barring a 30-minute nap), to operate
on you or someone you love?

...how about engaging some common sense and compassion before posting a glib reply? In the heath service, overwork 
& tiredness costs lives - _other people's lives_. Many NHS staff already put in a dozen unpaid hours a week just to keep things
ticking over, so they have the 'hard work' thing more than covered - they don't ask for easy, or they wouldn't have picked med-
icine as a career.

And before you go down the 'it's just a joke' route, the playing of exhaustion roulette with patients is never a joking matter. 
I've been noting your snarky, I'm-alright-jack replies to those genuinely worried about aspects of Brexit, and you aren't funny in
the slightest. It's perfectly possible to be gracious in victory as well as in defeat, you know - and there's no point talking about
disappointed Remain voters being bad losers if you're going to be something even worse: a bad winner.

/QUOTE
.
.
I wish we could still give rep - eloquent. Well done. 
.
If Satori went in for a nice simple outpatient procedure, to remove a clouded lens / cataract, & the gung-ho opthalmologist had worked 60-hrs in 5 days, stockpiling money for a planned vacation, & removed the CLEAR lens, leaving the cloudy one, I doubt Satori would laugh - 
but at this point, i'd be tempted to point my finger & guffaw. It couldn't happen to a more-apropos person.
.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lots of manipulation is subliminal really. Remember it is always easier to criticize current state of affairs.
Those against change would be accused of fear...

Sadly I thought that Leave would win.


Nostalgia..postcard England...playing the national pride game..
Spanish neofrnkists play the same using Gibraltar...
Lots of people who base their opinion on pub talks and trash papers...
Britain will survive but poor will get much poorer..but they voted for it so why rich should pity them really?

It would be catastrophe for environment.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Satori:
> 
> A little bit of hard work never hurt anyone.
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> FYI, Satori, I'm one of those healthcare workers, & while I don't live in the UK, i'm more than familiar with the hazards of overwork & consequent risks to patients / clients. It doesn't matter how complete Ur education, or where U got Ur training, if in a moment of fuzzy-brained exhaustion, U make a critical error - what Rx, what dosage, how often, with or w/o food, what foods / drinks / other meds are OK with that medicine [or NOT okay with it], & so forth.
> Ppl have *died as a direct result of being cared for, monitored, or surgically operated on by overtired care providers. *Those who don't die don't get off scot-free; completely avoidable medical crises, or lifelong after-effects such as paralysis, epilepsy, blindness, a stroke, or simply amputating the wrong limb, are also results of exhausted care providers making mistakes - that they'd never make, IF they were well-rested.
> .
> There are multiple studies that quantify the increase in errors associated with medical staff being overtired & not thinking clearly - feel free to look for Urself, preferably before U make any more asinine cracks about "a little hard work".
> The potentially-catastrophic effects on patients aren't material for jokes.
> .
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> QUOTE, Jesthar:
> 
> So you'd like someone who has been at work for 80+ hours over the previous seven days in a high stress job,
> having at that precise moment in time been on their feet for 28-hours straight (barring a 30-minute nap), to operate
> on you or someone you love?
> 
> ...how about engaging some common sense and compassion before posting a glib reply? In the heath service, overwork
> & tiredness costs lives - _other people's lives_. Many NHS staff already put in a dozen unpaid hours a week just to keep things
> ticking over, so they have the 'hard work' thing more than covered - they don't ask for easy, or they wouldn't have picked med-
> icine as a career.
> 
> And before you go down the 'it's just a joke' route, the playing of exhaustion roulette with patients is never a joking matter.
> I've been noting your snarky, I'm-alright-jack replies to those genuinely worried about aspects of Brexit, and you aren't funny in
> the slightest. It's perfectly possible to be gracious in victory as well as in defeat, you know - and there's no point talking about
> disappointed Remain voters being bad losers if you're going to be something even worse: a bad winner.
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> I wish we could still give rep - eloquent. Well done.
> .
> If Satori went in for a nice simple outpatient procedure, to remove a clouded lens / cataract, & the gung-ho opthalmologist had worked 60-hrs in 5 days, stockpiling money for a planned vacation, & removed the CLEAR lens, leaving the cloudy one, I doubt Satori would laugh -
> but at this point,* i'd be tempted to point my finger & guffaw. It couldn't happen to a more-apropos person.*
> .
> .
> .


Gosh I'm surprised at you LFL - that is a pretty nasty and unprofessional thing to say


----------



## Satori

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Satori:
> 
> A little bit of hard work never hurt anyone.
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> FYI, Satori, I'm one of those healthcare workers, & while I don't live in the UK, i'm more than familiar with the hazards of overwork & consequent risks to patients / clients. It doesn't matter how complete Ur education, or where U got Ur training, if in a moment of fuzzy-brained exhaustion, U make a critical error - what Rx, what dosage, how often, with or w/o food, what foods / drinks / other meds are OK with that medicine [or NOT okay with it], & so forth.
> Ppl have *died as a direct result of being cared for, monitored, or surgically operated on by overtired care providers. *Those who don't die don't get off scot-free; completely avoidable medical crises, or lifelong after-effects such as paralysis, epilepsy, blindness, a stroke, or simply amputating the wrong limb, are also results of exhausted care providers making mistakes - that they'd never make, IF they were well-rested.
> .
> There are multiple studies that quantify the increase in errors associated with medical staff being overtired & not thinking clearly - feel free to look for Urself, preferably before U make any more asinine cracks about "a little hard work".
> The potentially-catastrophic effects on patients aren't material for jokes.
> .
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> QUOTE, Jesthar:
> 
> So you'd like someone who has been at work for 80+ hours over the previous seven days in a high stress job,
> having at that precise moment in time been on their feet for 28-hours straight (barring a 30-minute nap), to operate
> on you or someone you love?
> 
> ...how about engaging some common sense and compassion before posting a glib reply? In the heath service, overwork
> & tiredness costs lives - _other people's lives_. Many NHS staff already put in a dozen unpaid hours a week just to keep things
> ticking over, so they have the 'hard work' thing more than covered - they don't ask for easy, or they wouldn't have picked med-
> icine as a career.
> 
> And before you go down the 'it's just a joke' route, the playing of exhaustion roulette with patients is never a joking matter.
> I've been noting your snarky, I'm-alright-jack replies to those genuinely worried about aspects of Brexit, and you aren't funny in
> the slightest. It's perfectly possible to be gracious in victory as well as in defeat, you know - and there's no point talking about
> disappointed Remain voters being bad losers if you're going to be something even worse: a bad winner.
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> I wish we could still give rep - eloquent. Well done.
> .
> If Satori went in for a nice simple outpatient procedure, to remove a clouded lens / cataract, & the gung-ho opthalmologist had worked 60-hrs in 5 days, stockpiling money for a planned vacation, & removed the CLEAR lens, leaving the cloudy one, I doubt Satori would laugh -
> but at this point, i'd be tempted to point my finger & guffaw. It couldn't happen to a more-apropos person.
> .
> .
> .


Oh my. Sounds like someone woke up on the wrong side of the trailer this morning.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You give The Sun a lot more credit than they deserve and more power than I believe they have. How do you (in general) know how much influence the newspaper people buy influences how they vote?


Nothing concrete to confirm this but judging from past experience they urged Labour voters to vote Tory in 1979, in 1992 when Labour were ahead the opinion polls they published that front page discrediting Kinnock. When they surprisingly backed Tony Blair from 1997 Labour won three terms in office! Back to supporting the Tories Cameron won two terms. Like other papers they turned against him during the EU referendum, backed Leave. We know the rest.

I would dearly love to be wrong but I do wonder sometimes.


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> Nothing concrete to confirm this but judging from past experience they urged Labour voters to vote Tory in 1979, in 1992 when Labour were ahead the opinion polls they published that front page discrediting Kinnock. When they surprisingly backed Tony Blair from 1997 Labour won three terms in office! Back to supporting the Tories Cameron won two terms. Like other papers they turned against him during the EU referendum, backed Leave. We know the rest.
> 
> I would dearly love to be wrong but I do wonder sometimes.


There's no real wonder about it, sadly. The Sun has the largest circulation of all UK papers, which means if Mr Murdoch desires a particular vote he has a large group of people available to influence. And Mr Murdoch REALLY wanted Brexit.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Yes but is there any actual evidence/proof that people who buy The Sun vote however the paper tells them to? or might it be that The Sun is good at gauging the opinion of its readers and so trys to reflect that in its editorials?


----------



## havoc

You could be right. The well written and balanced editorials in the paper are famous throughout the world and Mr Murdoch is known to be a hands off boss who has no desire for power and influence.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *You give The Sun a lot more credit than they deserve and more power than I believe they have.* How do you (in general) know how much influence the newspaper people buy influences how they vote?


I know at least 3 people that believe everything it says, and you can't tell them anything different, if it told them black was white they'd still believe them, so I'm sure there are a lot more poeple around who are the same.

The only place of that rag is, cut into squares and hung on the back of a toilet door.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes but is there any actual evidence/proof that people who buy The Sun vote however the paper tells them to? or might it be that The Sun is good at gauging the opinion of its readers and so trys to reflect that in its editorials?


That's a good point, but in 1992 the Tories were in a mess with the aftermath of the Poll Tax. Labour had a good chance of winning that election.

Remember the headline, "It's The Sun Wot Won It".....

Certainly true they reflect the opinions of their readers on some occasions, but aren't these opinions formed by comments in such papers over a period of time? As I said no actual evidence to prove this, but in conversation with some views expressed are often what they've read in the paper, be it the Sun, Mail, Express, Mirror they read. Others do comment what the papers print is rubbish to be fair.

I long for a time people take with a pinch of salt what the papers say as they do now with politicians!


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> I long for a time people take with a pinch of salt what the papers say as they do with politicians!


Maybe a snap quiz as you enter to vote in any election to show you've read the party manifesto and understand the policies of each candidate standing in your constituency? What would you suggest as the pass mark?

Seriously, where else but the media do you think the vast majority get their information?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Found this article this morning on the Business Insider and MSN.

Did you know the UK can change its mind about leaving the EU? It's called Article 49 of the Lisbon treaty which enables us to re-enter the EU whenever we want to or the option not to invoke article 50 at all. I know that our EU neighbours would not be happy with this, hence they are already trying to get us to invoke article 50 asap but at anytime during the period article 50 has been invoked and the vote by the 27 other members states we can formally withdraw from negotiations and invoke article 49.

Here is the article:
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...-back-into-the-eu-whenever-we-want/ar-BBuCmTZ

Doing what this article suggests would have substantial political consequences.


----------



## KittenKong

I wouldn't worry, the other EU countries seem keen for the Brexit process to be accelerated not reversed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I wouldn't worry, the other EU countries seem keen for the Brexit process to be accelerated not reversed.


I am not worried 

Just an interesting view on stopping Brexit.

I am aware it might all be over in less than 2 years when article 50 is invoked.


----------



## MiloandTazzy

This is quite an interesting read

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/13802.htm

A select committee report on the process of leaving the eu.


----------



## havoc

Why do you think May is/was so keen to get the negotiations started before triggering Article 50. Yes we can stop the leaving process afterwards but we don't have a say in the terms of leaving once we officially announce we are. It isn't that we can go back in so much as we haven't left by triggering Article 50. It's like resigning from a job and being able to withdraw your resignation at any time during your notice period but once you've left, you've left.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> *Why do you think May is/was so keen to get the negotiations started before triggering Article 50.* Yes we can stop the leaving process afterwards but we don't have a say in the terms of leaving once we officially announce we are. It isn't that we can go back in so much as we haven't left by triggering Article 50. It's like resigning from a job and being able to withdraw your resignation at any time during your notice period but once you've left, you've left.


The EU have made it clear though, no negotiations will take place until article 50 is invoked. I know she is negotiationing with the devolution areas of the UK eg Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to make sure the UK doesn't split.


----------



## havoc

Article 50 won't be triggered before October at the earliest and our politicians were probably hoping for time to try and influence the terms anyway. Once it's triggered we lose all control.
https://fullfact.org/law/ask-full-fact-brexit-in-court/


----------



## KittenKong

Link to an interesting site, "Vote Leave Watch" I thought I'd share.

http://www.voteleavewatch.org.uk/


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Article 50 won't be triggered before October at the earliest and our politicians were probably hoping for time to try and influence the terms anyway. Once it's triggered we lose all control.
> https://fullfact.org/law/ask-full-fact-brexit-in-court/


I am aware of the court case but the High Court said that the case is about a matter of law eg should Parliament trigger article 50 or the Prime Minister. Theresa May said that she has no intention of invoking article 50 before the end of the year and David Davis said it would be early next year (2017).

The court case won't stop the process from happening it is just to argue who should activate it to keep it lawful in the UK and within the boundaries of article 50 which is itself very vague.

I know we lose control until a decision is made on us leaving the EU after article 50 is invoked but we can say no deal to it in which case there will be no deal with the EU. That's my understanding anyway.


----------



## MiloandTazzy

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-economic-consequences-may-never-happen-2016-7


----------



## havoc

If the court case does decide it requires a parliamentary vote then it would be advantageous to have some picture of the likely terms of exit. MPs wouldn't then be voting in the dark and could justify their decision either way. As it stands I'd imagine they would all much prefer the result of the case leaves them right out of it.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Link to an interesting site, "Vote Leave Watch" I thought I'd share.
> 
> http://www.voteleavewatch.org.uk/


Well they are unbiased aren't they?


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> If the court case does decide it requires a parliamentary vote then it would be advantageous to have some picture of the likely terms of exit. MPs wouldn't then be voting in the dark and could justify their decision either way. As it stands I'd imagine they would all much prefer the result of the case leaves them right out of it.


The President of the Supreme Court seems to have answered the question before the court case even starts:


> Q: How can it be such a difficult question?
> 
> A: Article 50 says that a country's decision to leave the EU has to be made "in accordance with its own constitutional requirements". *The UK doesn't have a codified constitution-the president of the Supreme Court thinks it doesn't have a constitution at all*


 So will it be up to the PM if this is the case?

EDITED:
The President of the Supreme Court is absolutely correct in what he says about that the UK doesn't have a codified constitution:
http://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-constitution

It will be interesting to see what happens with the High Court Case. Either side is likely to appeal as well.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I wouldn't worry, the other EU countries seem keen for the Brexit process to be accelerated not reversed.


They're only jealous


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

havoc said:


> You could be right. The well written and balanced editorials in the paper are famous throughout the world and Mr Murdoch is known to be a hands off boss who has no desire for power and influence.


It was a question not a statement or opinion.



Happy Paws said:


> I know at least 3 people that believe everything it says, and you can't tell them anything different, if it told them black was white they'd still believe them, so I'm sure there are a lot more poeple around who are the same.
> 
> The only place of that rag is, cut into squares and hung on the back of a toilet door.


I don't know one single person who reads it so I can't judge on whether they are influenced by it or not. It does always make me laugh though when people complain about others being influenced by by the media but then quote the media all the time themselves (not meaning you HP).

On when to trigger Article 50 I thought the PM had made it clear that won't be happening until next year and that we will not be rushed into it by others.


----------



## stockwellcat.

> *On when to trigger Article 50 I thought the PM had made it clear that won't be happening until next year and that we will not be rushed into it by others.*


 The PM did make it clear that Article 50 will not be triggered before the end of this year and she isn't allowing other member states to rush us. Until such a time it is triggered we are still in the EU and will be in the EU during the negotiations as well. The only time we come out of the EU is when the negotiations have ended and the vote has taken place by other EU members and the UKs exit has been endorsed by the EU.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> Until such a time it is triggered we are still in the EU and will be in the EU during the negotiations as well.


Once it is triggered we don't have a place at the table though. The rest of the member states decide the terms of our leaving and only once we've accepted them can we talk about what agreements can be put in place once we've left.


----------



## havoc

rottiepointerhouse said:


> It does always make me laugh though when people complain about others being influenced by by the media but then quote the media all the time themselves


You've noticed that too


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Well they are unbiased aren't they?


May come over this way on first impression but anything that can help rebuild divisions caused by the referendum can only be regarded as a good thing in my view.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Once it is triggered we don't have a place at the table though. The rest of the member states decide the terms of our leaving and only once we've accepted them can we talk about what agreements can be put in place once we've left.


That's where it gets confusing because we are under the impression that we do get a say:
BBC News:


> For the UK to leave the EU it has to invoke an agreement called Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which gives *the two sides two years to agree the terms of the split*


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

Then they put this chart on there news report:


----------



## havoc

We can ask - they don't have to do what we ask. It's already been made pretty clear there's no point attempting to cherry pick and if we want to leave then we'll have to accept whatever terms the other member states decide..


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="rottiepointerhouse, post: 1064601549, member: It does always make me laugh though when people complain about others being influenced by by the media but then quote the media all the time themselves.[/QUOTE]

Good point actually. Only problem if quotes were made from official party policy documentation/websites it could be regarded as political bias to that party.

You cannot win!


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> Then they put this chart on there news report:


It isn't a bad visual and explains the process nicely. What pretty pictures and soundbite explanations can't tell you is what the world will be like a year from now. From the start we aren't in the strongest position for negotiations because it's us that want something and have little to give in return. It's all very well suggesting the other member states will be desperate to keep us happy because we buy their cars and tomatoes but that can change very quickly, influenced by events anywhere in the world and beyond our control. Simplistically, if we're buying less a year or two from now then it weakens our negotiating position and if we're buying more then it strengthens it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> It isn't a bad visual and explains the process nicely. What pretty pictures and soundbite explanations can't tell you is what the world will be like a year from now. From the start we aren't in the strongest position for negotiations because it's us that want something and have little to give in return. It's all very well suggesting the other member states will be desperate to keep us happy because we buy their cars and tomatoes but that can change very quickly, influenced by events anywhere in the world and beyond our control. Simplistically, if we're buying less a year or two from now then it weakens our negotiating position and if we're buying more then it strengthens it.


Why has May got it into her head we will be negotiationing with the EU when we won't be?


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> Why has May got it into her head we will be negotiationing with the EU when we won't be?


We will be in that we will be attempting to persuade the other member states to see it our way. What we won't have is any influence at that table where the decisions are made.


----------



## havoc

Think of it like pitching for a contract. You get to go and see the decision makers and put your case but you don't get to be part of the decision as to who gets hired


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

stockwellcat said:


> Why has May got it into her head we will be negotiationing with the EU when we won't be?


Because she already is. Why do you think she went to see Merkel. In business things are decided long before everyone sits round a table. The back room negotiating is where it all happens and I have a feeling that that has begun already ............

J


----------



## havoc

Exactly. A better term would be lobbying though what's happening now is more a testing of the water. If you know before you start any formal process what's agreed and what's definitely not going to be then you don't waste time leaving those things on the agenda and you only discuss those things where there may be room for discussion. We've already been told there's no hope of being in the single market without freedom of movement so there's no point wasting time on that. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that particular point was made so quickly with the full knowledge and blessing of our own government.


----------



## Arnie83

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But why is it fair to conclude that? what do they base their opinion of how much effect they are having on? opinion polls? has anyone on here ever been asked how they are going to vote or what is influencing how they are going to vote? Nobody I know has been asked so who do they ask? how do they select who they are going to ask and who decides the question they will ask and its loading?


They do what's called 'internal polling'. Google is your friend.

You may conclude that no-one at all was influenced by what the campaigns said, but I find that unlikely.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Exactly. A better term would be lobbying though what's happening now is more a testing of the water. If you know before you start any formal process what's agreed and what's definitely not going to be then you don't waste time leaving those things on the agenda and you only discuss those things where there may be room for discussion. We've already been told there's no hope of being in the single market without freedom of movement so there's no point wasting time on that. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that particular point was made so quickly with the full knowledge and blessing of our own government.


I think you're right on the single market issue, that we won't be granted that one.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> They do what's called 'internal polling'. Google is your friend.


It really isn't in this case. Most of the results are from the US. Nor does it come up on Wikipedia.

What is it?


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> They do what's called 'internal polling'. *Google is your friend*.


So why not give the link?


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> You may conclude that no-one at all was influenced by what the campaigns said, but I find that unlikely.


So a lot of people voted to stay because of all the threats made?


----------



## havoc

Some may have done Rona and we can't know how it's going to affect this country in the long term. All the claims made in the immediate aftermath of the result were meaningless. The pound fell - end of the world. It recovered a bit - look it proves we were right to leave. Weak pound is brilliant for manufacturing and exports - not so great if you have to import your raw materials. Everyone is picking and choosing little snapshots of information - whatever they think proves their particular stance and we haven't even started the process of leaving yet. The only thing we know for sure is we don't know what will happen.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864099

"Reset" economic policy????


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864099
> 
> "Reset" economic policy????


I don't understand what the Chancellor meant by this either.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864099
> 
> "Reset" economic policy????


Just found out what he meant.
All the agreements made by George Osborne have been scrapped so in technicality we have started fresh again with all the financial aspects and economy. The new Chancellor will make it known what will happen in his Autumn statement. So all cuts have been scrapped at the moment. This is because of a change in leadership. George Osborne agreed to this as well. So the old plan of deficit cuts is scrapped, spending cuts scrapped, etc etc. This is called a reset on economic policy.

The new Chancellor has to come up with a complete new spending and cuts and economic plan.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Meanwhile economic figures are not so good...
Funnily manufacturing got hit despite falling pound!
So now the door is opening wider to democratic and animal welfare friendly China.
What joy.
And that before anything happened yet.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, RottiePointerHouse

Gosh, I'm surprised at you, LFL - *that* is a pretty nasty & unprofessional thing to say. 

/QUOTE
.
What specific part of my post struck U as "nasty & unprofessional"?
Saying that it would serve Satori right if, after that remarkably callous crack about "a little work", an overtired health-pro made a dumb blunder re Satori's care / treatment? -- I haven't changed my mind. I think it would be marvelously ironic, IMO - something nonfatal, of course, & not crippling. Just seriously inconvenient & completely unnecessary, some extra pain, a gratuitous complication or two, an adverse drug reaction from a known sensitivity...
.
I have plenty of compassion for my clients, my family, & even for total strangers. Not for someone who posts anonymously, & jokes about a serious problem that causes enormous suffering.
.
U want a professional answer, unemotional & logical? - here ya go,
a Google Scholar search, 'long hours for interns + risk of medical errors'
*http://tinyurl.com/hl89wo4*
.
similarly, sub 'doctors' for prev interns:
*http://tinyurl.com/zzqrqez*
.
& last but definitely *not* least, 'long hours for *nurses* + risk of medical errors'
*http://tinyurl.com/hx8t22p*
.
I would particularly direct Ur attn to the article,
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/jcaho/jcjqs/2007/00000033/a00111s1/art00002

Abstract, QUOTE, *emphasis added:*
_'Background:_
_There has been increasing interest in the impact of resident-physician & nurse work hours on patient safety. The evidence demonstrates that work schedules have a profound effect on providers' sleep & performance, as well as on their safety and that of their patients._
_Nurses working shifts greater than 12.5 hours are at *significantly* *increased risk* of experiencing *decreased vigilance* on the job, suffering an *occupational injury*, or making a *medical error*._
_Physicians-in-training _[AKA interns] _working traditional > 24-hour on-call shifts are at *greatly increased risk* of experiencing an occupational *sharps injury* or a *motor-vehicle crash* on the drive home from work, & of making a *serious or even fatal medical error*._
_When compared to working 16-hour shifts, on-call residents have _*twice*_ as many attentional failures when working overnight & commit *36% more* serious medical errors. They also report making *300% more fatigue-related medical errors that lead to a patient's death*.

Conclusion:_
_The weight of evidence strongly suggests that extended-duration work shifts significantly increase fatigue & *impair performance & safety*. From the standpoint of both providers & patients, t*he hours routinely worked by health-care providers in the United States are unsafe.* _
_*To reduce the unacceptably high rate of preventable fatigue-related medical error & injuries to health-care workers, the United States must establish & enforce safe work-hour limits.'*_
------ END quote -----
.
For the mathematically-challenged, "300% more" fatal-outcome medical errors by resident-Drs when fatigued
vs when alert = _*four times as many *__*medical errors resultin*__*g*__* in a *__*p*__*atient's death*_; there is the original risk
when the Dr is alert [call it variable R, for risk], plus 3 x R, = 4R or 400% total.
.
I hope that's sufficiently professional - also sufficient evidence, as this subject has been extensively researched & documented for decades in the USA; still, some hospitals persist in demanding brutal hours of interns, & many hospitals & clinics still over-schedule nurses, despite clear data indicating the hazards of such scheduling practices to patients & staff.
.
.
It's no different than the pigheaded allegiance of 24-hr industries to back-stepping shift schedules, where employees working a week of day shift [7-am to 3-pm] work the next week on night shift [11-pm to 7-am], & finally work a week of middle shift [3-pm to 11-pm] before starting day-shift again.
There's no logic behind the practice, & they've known for decades that the more-intuitive forward-stepping shift schedule results in savings on accidents, costly mistakes, property damage, personnel injuries, & more, INCLUDING replacing workers who are fired b/c they fall asleep on the job, make errors due to fatigue, have accidents, oversleep / arrive late, damage equipment, etc - forward-stepping shifts would avoid the upheaval of firing workers who can't cope / struggle, & moreover would save the time & money spent training their replacements; hiring a new employee is a significant investment, & training that new employee isn't cheap, either.
Across the US, switching to a forward-stepping shift schedule would save hundreds of thousands of dollars in individual companies, millions of dollars in a national corporation or across an entire industry, to say nothing of medical costs, hospital time / bed space, & lost time due to injuries, & would even prevent deaths - also saving the payout of survivors' benefits, if any, along with lives.
.
But will they make the change? -- No; "tradition" - spelled I.N.E.R.T.I.A - is more potent than both logic & economy, ignoring ethical considerations.
.
.
.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> So a lot of people voted to stay because of all the threats made?


Possibly, though I would probably call most of them warnings - that the pound would lose value, business activity would slow down; the sort of things we're beginning to see. 'Threat' makes it sound as though these things are only happening to punish those who voted to leave, where in fact they are simply a much presaged response to the situation we now find ourselves in.

We'll have to wait and see if the NHS turns into the money-rich nirvana that was promised by the leavers.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, RottiePointerHouse
> 
> Gosh, I'm surprised at you, LFL - *that* is a pretty nasty & unprofessional thing to say.
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> What specific part of my post struck U as "nasty & unprofessional"?
> Saying that it would serve Satori right if, after that remarkably callous crack about "a little work", an overtired health-pro made a dumb blunder re Satori's care / treatment? -- I haven't changed my mind. I think it would be marvelously ironic, IMO - something nonfatal, of course, & not crippling. Just seriously inconvenient & completely unnecessary, some extra pain, a gratuitous complication or two, an adverse drug reaction from a known sensitivity...
> .
> I have plenty of compassion for my clients, my family, & even for total strangers. Not for someone who posts anonymously, & jokes about a serious problem that causes enormous suffering.
> .
> U want a professional answer, unemotional & logical? - here ya go,
> a Google Scholar search, 'long hours for interns + risk of medical errors'
> *http://tinyurl.com/hl89wo4*
> .
> similarly, sub 'doctors' for prev interns:
> *http://tinyurl.com/zzqrqez*
> .
> & last but definitely *not* least, 'long hours for *nurses* + risk of medical errors'
> *http://tinyurl.com/hx8t22p*
> .
> I would particularly direct Ur attn to the article,
> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/jcaho/jcjqs/2007/00000033/a00111s1/art00002
> 
> Abstract, QUOTE, *emphasis added:*
> _'Background:_
> _There has been increasing interest in the impact of resident-physician & nurse work hours on patient safety. The evidence demonstrates that work schedules have a profound effect on providers' sleep & performance, as well as on their safety and that of their patients._
> _Nurses working shifts greater than 12.5 hours are at *significantly* *increased risk* of experiencing *decreased vigilance* on the job, suffering an *occupational injury*, or making a *medical error*._
> _Physicians-in-training _[AKA interns] _working traditional > 24-hour on-call shifts are at *greatly increased risk* of experiencing an occupational *sharps injury* or a *motor-vehicle crash* on the drive home from work, & of making a *serious or even fatal medical error*._
> _When compared to working 16-hour shifts, on-call residents have _*twice*_ as many attentional failures when working overnight & commit *36% more* serious medical errors. They also report making *300% more fatigue-related medical errors that lead to a patient's death*._
> 
> _Conclusion:_
> _The weight of evidence strongly suggests that extended-duration work shifts significantly increase fatigue & *impair performance & safety*. From the standpoint of both providers & patients, t*he hours routinely worked by health-care providers in the United States are unsafe.* _
> _*To reduce the unacceptably high rate of preventable fatigue-related medical error & injuries to health-care workers, the United States must establish & enforce safe work-hour limits.'*_
> ------ END quote -----
> .
> For the mathematically-challenged, "300% more" fatal-outcome medical errors by resident-Drs when fatigued
> vs when alert = _*four times as many *__*medical errors resultin*__*g*__* in a *__*p*__*atient's death*_; there is the original risk
> when the Dr is alert [call it variable R, for risk], plus 3 x R, = 4R or 400% total.
> .
> I hope that's sufficiently professional - also sufficient evidence, as this subject has been extensively researched & documented for decades in the USA; still, some hospitals persist in demanding brutal hours of interns, & many hospitals & clinics still over-schedule nurses, despite clear data indicating the hazards of such scheduling practices to patients & staff.
> .
> .
> It's no different than the pigheaded allegiance of 24-hr industries to back-stepping shift schedules, where employees working a week of day shift [7-am to 3-pm] work the next week on night shift [11-pm to 7-am], & finally work a week of middle shift [3-pm to 11-pm] before starting day-shift again.
> There's no logic behind the practice, & they've known for decades that the more-intuitive forward-stepping shift schedule results in savings on accidents, costly mistakes, property damage, personnel injuries, & more, INCLUDING replacing workers who are fired b/c they fall asleep on the job, make errors due to fatigue, have accidents, oversleep / arrive late, damage equipment, etc - forward-stepping shifts would avoid the upheaval of firing workers who can't cope / struggle, & moreover would save the time & money spent training their replacements; hiring a new employee is a significant investment, & training that new employee isn't cheap, either.
> Across the US, switching to a forward-stepping shift schedule would save hundreds of thousands of dollars in individual companies, millions of dollars in a national corporation or across an entire industry, to say nothing of medical costs, hospital time / bed space, & lost time due to injuries, & would even prevent deaths - also saving the payout of survivors' benefits, if any, along with lives.
> .
> But will they make the change? -- No; "tradition" - spelled I.N.E.R.T.I.A - is more potent than both logic & economy, ignoring ethical considerations.
> .
> .
> .


I think you are well aware of which part was nasty and unprofessional. Are you a member of a nurses professional body? You either don't know of are ignoring the fact that I am an RN and so have plenty of first hand knowledge of tired nurses and doctors but being tired and overworked is no excuse for wishing ill on somebody, whatever their opinions.


----------



## kimthecat

look what Brexit is being blamed for . 

 *Andrew Tasker* ‏@*CourierBoyUK* 
#*Dover* delays - Expect more of the same when we #*Brexit* Ending free movement of people works both ways. Well done #*VoteLeave* #*dovertraffic*

Three things contributed , start of school holidays, weather , lack of French staff at Dover.


----------



## CuddleMonster

kimthecat said:


> look what Brexit is being blamed for .
> 
> *Andrew Tasker* ‏@*CourierBoyUK*
> #*Dover* delays - Expect more of the same when we #*Brexit* Ending free movement of people works both ways. Well done #*VoteLeave* #*dovertraffic*
> 
> Three things contributed , start of school holidays, weather , lack of French staff at Dover.


I also read that they are being extra-rigorous with security checks following Paris & Nice...no doubt, if the checks were skimped, we would be having compIaints that our safety was being endangered.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, RottiePointerHouse:

I think you are well aware of which part was nasty and unprofessional.
/Quote
.
.
oh, for heaven's sake, RPH! - I know very well that U have no problem whatever in writing frankly & clearly when U discuss dogs & their behavior, or what's acceptable / unacceptable in handling, training, or B-Mod re dogs.
Why, when we're discussing human behavior, are U suddenly dancing the minuet around a simple answer, rather than simply SAY what specific statement / opinion / turn of phrase in my comment, raised Ur professional hackles?
Not being clairvoyant, I took a guess - the very least U could do, in reply, would be to kindly *confirm *that i guessed correctly, which would be helpful, vs continue being coy.
.
This isn't an episode in an afternoon soap-opera, where everything is hints & glances - we're WRITING, & in text-only communication, clarity is all-important, since the micro- & macro-expressions of one's face, tone of voice, posture, body language, etc, all the meaningful clues of in-person interaction, are missing.
As a reply, the above sentence simply comes across to me as prissy & deliberately uninformative, which is no help whatever & does nothing to aid communication, only frustrates it.
If i were a dog in the very act of peeing on the carpet, U'd interrupt me & get me outside, then reward me for completing the project in the desired place - lots of information exchanged: What's unwanted, what's wanted, & what's in it for the dog - all in one chain of brief interactions. I don't see why we humans can efficiently & clearly communicate with another species, yet so often fail to do so with our own.
.
.
QUOTE, cont'd:
Are you a member of a nurses' professional body?
/quote
.
No - as i'm not a nurse.
.
.
QUOTE, cont'd:
You either don't know [or] are ignoring the fact that I'm an RN...
/Quote
.
U've got to be kidding - How in Goddess' name would I know Ur profession? As i said, i'm not clairvoyant, nor am i a telepath. That info doesn't appear on Ur avatar, & U don't sign each post "RN RottiePointerHouse", either. If it appears on Ur SIG PHOTO, i can't see that - i deliberately blocked all sig-photos when ppl went to ridiculously-huge pictures that made every page load like cold molasses. Thus, i see *zero* sig-photos, & haven't for years - i blocked sig-photos before i left VA, which was July-2012.
So far as i recall, we've never chatted about Ur work [nor mine] via PM, & we're not acquaintances IRL. Where & when would I have learned U're an RN?
.
Second, if i *did* know that U're an RN, what sort of bass-ackward contrary motivation are U ascribing to me, when the sole alternative that U offer to my "not knowing" is that i'd deliberately IGNORE that? -- I cannot imagine why i'd supposedly do that, & i also can't imagine where & when U've gotten such a p*ss-poor impression of me.
I can't recall a single serious disagreement between us; minor ones, of course, but nothing bad-tempered or that left any lingering ill-feeling - at least, not in my memory. What did i do, to give U the impression that i'd be deliberately obtuse or willfully difficult? -- And when did i do this? 6-mos ago, 2-years ago, what?
I've always done my best to communicate clearly &, if possible, succinctly. I may be blunt, but i'm not hostile, merely frank, & i'm trying to understand what the other person wrote & respond to it in an understandable reply. I can't fathom why U think i'd "deliberately ignore" pertinent info.
.
Third, how would knowing U're an RN have changed what i posted in my prior general comments, or in my reply to U?
Even with this new info, i see nothing i'd re-write in my previous posts on this thread.
.
.
QUOTE, cont'd:
...and [as an RN, I] have plenty of first-hand knowledge of tired nurses & doctors...
/quote
.
.
I don't know if it's gotten as much attn in the UK as here in the US, but there have been many, many articles in US newspapers & popular magazines re overwork / over-scheduling / fatigue, & consequent medical errors in health-care.
In Ur work, U may see exhausted co-workers still working, or even experience "running on fumes" days personally - & i sincerely hope both of those situations are extremely rare - but plenty of American consumers are aware of it as an ongoing problem, & also as an added risk when they seek / receive medical care. It's reached the point where patients with elective surgeries might ask the surgeon if s/he had a good night's sleep, or how long they've been working, before agreeing to surgery - not kidding. Some patients won't sign the permission form if they aren't comfortable with the answers they get, & either re-schedule for a later date, or ask for a different surgeon.
.
There's also a separate worry of "simultaneous surgeries", where the head surgeon moves between 2 or more surgical suites, simply overseeing the surgeries as they're done by less-senior surgeons, or jumping in & out to actually perform parts of one or more surgeries, done at the same time; the head-surgeon tries to be there for any critical parts in each one, & may do those personally, while letting juniors do the more-elementary or less-demanding bits.
Obviously, problems arise when a crisis occurs, & the head-surgeon is in another room, possibly up to their elbows in another body. Hospitals like the co$t-savings of "simultaneous surgeries", but complications & sub-par outcomes are definitely more possible, tho no-one has yet published hard data on outcomes & risks, that i've seen.
.
.
QUOTE, cont'd:
...being tired & overworked is no excuse for wishing ill on somebody, whatever their opinions.
/QUOTE
.
.
I want to make something crystal-clear to all readers: i didn't post 'cuz i'm cranky & need my nap. 
.
I got plenty of sleep last night, despite being awakened at 5:30-am by my client pounding on his adult-dotter's apt-door [basement apt, not directly under my bedrm]; i went to bed @ 11-pm, i slept well BEFORE he woke me, & went back to sleep promptly after being awakened, no problem; i'm well-rested.
I've had a good breakfast, a healthy lunch, & plenty of fluids. And i haven't changed my mind.
Moreover, i wasn't feeling cranky the day i originally posted, other than very specifically with Satori as an individual - yes, Satori, take it personally, it wasn't "just a bad day", a short night, being hangry, whatever. It's what YOU wrote, & nothing else.
.
.
Sneering at health-care workers, implying their jobs are easy/ they're lazy, with light work & short hours, is bad enuf; ridiculing the very-real risks to patients AND caregivers that directly result from being over-tired & not thinking clearly, or slower reaction times, or less-agile balance, or poor eye-hand co-ordination, etc, which is an added, definite risk of complications from minor to major, up to & including death, is beyond the pale, IMO.
.
So i'll reiterate:
if one of those over-tired, too-many-hours healthcare pros were to make a poor decision or a clumsy move & cause one of those naughty little complications, _"Oopsy!..." _:--D) ... it would IMO be just deserts if Satori, not some other innocent, were to suffer it - as s/he's so happy to minimize the issue, & reduce it to a poor-taste joke.
And yet again:
i'm not making any specific suggestions, just something nonlethal & problematic - no wrong-limb amputations, nothing catastrophic, something either self-resolving or correctable; just a minor ADR, or praps one of those pesky side-FX from an unnecessary Rx drug - maybe painful intestinal spasms that double U over briefly & wicked belly-gas that sends everyone out of the room, or sudden sweaty flushing like the niacin effect X 3... i'll leave it to Fate to choose. 
.
.
.


----------



## Vanessa131

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Gosh I'm surprised at you LFL - that is a pretty nasty and unprofessional thing to say


Yes it was a very nasty thing for Satori to write. Why are you suprised that LFL quoted and explained the importance of a well rested workforce?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Vanessa131 said:


> Yes it was a very nasty thing for Satori to write. Why are you suprised that LFL quoted and explained the importance of a well rested workforce?


The comment @Satori made was (in my opinion and I can't speak for him) not a personal comment aimed at anyone in particular, more a general opinion - see below



Satori said:


> A little bit of hard work never hurt anyone.


It is of course an opinion lots of people won't agree with which is fine - argue the point by all means but this comment is (in my opinion) entirely different - its personal and its an unprofessional thing for a health care worker to say as well as being unkind/nasty. That is why I was surprised that LFL made the post below. Hope that explains 



leashedForLife said:


> If Satori went in for a nice simple outpatient procedure, to remove a clouded lens / cataract, & the gung-ho opthalmologist had worked 60-hrs in 5 days, stockpiling money for a planned vacation, & removed the CLEAR lens, leaving the cloudy one, I doubt Satori would laugh -
> but at this point, i'd be tempted to point my finger & guffaw. It couldn't happen to a more-apropos person.


@leashedForLife I'm sorry I don't have time to answer your reply in detail but suffice to say the paragraph I've quoted above is the one I found unprofessional and nasty. I see you stand by the comment "yes, Satori, take it personally" so there isn't much else to say on that other than I am shocked to hear a health care worker speak to someone like that . I'm sorry if my post came across as "prissy and uninformative" it wasn't intended to and no I don't have a problem or an issue with you.


----------



## Satori

Vanessa131 said:


> Yes it was a very nasty thing for Satori to write. Why are you suprised that LFL quoted and explained the importance of a well rested workforce?


Any opinion that you don't share is considered "very nasty"? Hmmm.......


----------



## Satori

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, RottiePointerHouse:
> 
> I think you are well aware of which part was nasty and unprofessional.
> /Quote
> .
> .
> oh, for heaven's sake, RPH! - I know very well that U have no problem whatever in writing frankly & clearly when U discuss dogs & their behavior, or what's acceptable / unacceptable in handling, training, or B-Mod re dogs.
> Why, when we're discussing human behavior, are U suddenly dancing the minuet around a simple answer, rather than simply SAY what specific statement / opinion / turn of phrase in my comment, raised Ur professional hackles?
> Not being clairvoyant, I took a guess - the very least U could do, in reply, would be to kindly *confirm *that i guessed correctly, which would be helpful, vs continue being coy.
> .
> This isn't an episode in an afternoon soap-opera, where everything is hints & glances - we're WRITING, & in text-only communication, clarity is all-important, since the micro- & macro-expressions of one's face, tone of voice, posture, body language, etc, all the meaningful clues of in-person interaction, are missing.
> As a reply, the above sentence simply comes across to me as prissy & deliberately uninformative, which is no help whatever & does nothing to aid communication, only frustrates it.
> If i were a dog in the very act of peeing on the carpet, U'd interrupt me & get me outside, then reward me for completing the project in the desired place - lots of information exchanged: What's unwanted, what's wanted, & what's in it for the dog - all in one chain of brief interactions. I don't see why we humans can efficiently & clearly communicate with another species, yet so often fail to do so with our own.
> .
> .
> QUOTE, cont'd:
> Are you a member of a nurses' professional body?
> /quote
> .
> No - as i'm not a nurse.
> .
> .
> QUOTE, cont'd:
> You either don't know [or] are ignoring the fact that I'm an RN...
> /Quote
> .
> U've got to be kidding - How in Goddess' name would I know Ur profession? As i said, i'm not clairvoyant, nor am i a telepath. That info doesn't appear on Ur avatar, & U don't sign each post "RN RottiePointerHouse", either. If it appears on Ur SIG PHOTO, i can't see that - i deliberately blocked all sig-photos when ppl went to ridiculously-huge pictures that made every page load like cold molasses. Thus, i see *zero* sig-photos, & haven't for years - i blocked sig-photos before i left VA, which was July-2012.
> So far as i recall, we've never chatted about Ur work [nor mine] via PM, & we're not acquaintances IRL. Where & when would I have learned U're an RN?
> .
> Second, if i *did* know that U're an RN, what sort of bass-ackward contrary motivation are U ascribing to me, when the sole alternative that U offer to my "not knowing" is that i'd deliberately IGNORE that? -- I cannot imagine why i'd supposedly do that, & i also can't imagine where & when U've gotten such a p*ss-poor impression of me.
> I can't recall a single serious disagreement between us; minor ones, of course, but nothing bad-tempered or that left any lingering ill-feeling - at least, not in my memory. What did i do, to give U the impression that i'd be deliberately obtuse or willfully difficult? -- And when did i do this? 6-mos ago, 2-years ago, what?
> I've always done my best to communicate clearly &, if possible, succinctly. I may be blunt, but i'm not hostile, merely frank, & i'm trying to understand what the other person wrote & respond to it in an understandable reply. I can't fathom why U think i'd "deliberately ignore" pertinent info.
> .
> Third, how would knowing U're an RN have changed what i posted in my prior general comments, or in my reply to U?
> Even with this new info, i see nothing i'd re-write in my previous posts on this thread.
> .
> .
> QUOTE, cont'd:
> ...and [as an RN, I] have plenty of first-hand knowledge of tired nurses & doctors...
> /quote
> .
> .
> I don't know if it's gotten as much attn in the UK as here in the US, but there have been many, many articles in US newspapers & popular magazines re overwork / over-scheduling / fatigue, & consequent medical errors in health-care.
> In Ur work, U may see exhausted co-workers still working, or even experience "running on fumes" days personally - & i sincerely hope both of those situations are extremely rare - but plenty of American consumers are aware of it as an ongoing problem, & also as an added risk when they seek / receive medical care. It's reached the point where patients with elective surgeries might ask the surgeon if s/he had a good night's sleep, or how long they've been working, before agreeing to surgery - not kidding. Some patients won't sign the permission form if they aren't comfortable with the answers they get, & either re-schedule for a later date, or ask for a different surgeon.
> .
> There's also a separate worry of "simultaneous surgeries", where the head surgeon moves between 2 or more surgical suites, simply overseeing the surgeries as they're done by less-senior surgeons, or jumping in & out to actually perform parts of one or more surgeries, done at the same time; the head-surgeon tries to be there for any critical parts in each one, & may do those personally, while letting juniors do the more-elementary or less-demanding bits.
> Obviously, problems arise when a crisis occurs, & the head-surgeon is in another room, possibly up to their elbows in another body. Hospitals like the co$t-savings of "simultaneous surgeries", but complications & sub-par outcomes are definitely more possible, tho no-one has yet published hard data on outcomes & risks, that i've seen.
> .
> .
> QUOTE, cont'd:
> ...being tired & overworked is no excuse for wishing ill on somebody, whatever their opinions.
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> I want to make something crystal-clear to all readers: i didn't post 'cuz i'm cranky & need my nap.
> .
> I got plenty of sleep last night, despite being awakened at 5:30-am by my client pounding on his adult-dotter's apt-door [basement apt, not directly under my bedrm]; i went to bed @ 11-pm, i slept well BEFORE he woke me, & went back to sleep promptly after being awakened, no problem; i'm well-rested.
> I've had a good breakfast, a healthy lunch, & plenty of fluids. And i haven't changed my mind.
> Moreover, i wasn't feeling cranky the day i originally posted, other than very specifically with Satori as an individual - yes, Satori, take it personally, it wasn't "just a bad day", a short night, being hangry, whatever. It's what YOU wrote, & nothing else.
> .
> .
> Sneering at health-care workers, implying their jobs are easy/ they're lazy, with light work & short hours, is bad enuf; ridiculing the very-real risks to patients AND caregivers that directly result from being over-tired & not thinking clearly, or slower reaction times, or less-agile balance, or poor eye-hand co-ordination, etc, which is an added, definite risk of complications from minor to major, up to & including death, is beyond the pale, IMO.
> .
> So i'll reiterate:
> if one of those over-tired, too-many-hours healthcare pros were to make a poor decision or a clumsy move & cause one of those naughty little complications, _"Oopsy!..." _:--D) ... it would IMO be just deserts if Satori, not some other innocent, were to suffer it - as s/he's so happy to minimize the issue, & reduce it to a poor-taste joke.
> And yet again:
> i'm not making any specific suggestions, just something nonlethal & problematic - no wrong-limb amputations, nothing catastrophic, something either self-resolving or correctable; just a minor ADR, or praps one of those pesky side-FX from an unnecessary Rx drug - maybe painful intestinal spasms that double U over briefly & wicked belly-gas that sends everyone out of the room, or sudden sweaty flushing like the niacin effect X 3... i'll leave it to Fate to choose.
> .
> .
> .


Save your breath. If I want to hear from your sort I'll just watch Jerry Springer tbh.


----------



## Eeyore

Satori said:


> Save your breath. If I want to hear from your sort I'll just watch Jerry Springer tbh.


:Jawdrop :Hilarious


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
_meanwhile, back at the ranch..._
to return to the original topic of the thread, which morphed post-vote from In or Out to current/visible & potential consequences of Out & a radically-reshaped future, I just saw a marvelous interview with the author of a new book, Parag Khanna - _*Open Mind *_on PBS-World channel hosted him, they discussed the ideas in his book, dealing with regional development of updated infrastructure to bring the world as a whole into the current era.
.
Mr Khanna pointed out that the old model makes individual cities in the US responsible for their own infrastructure, which places a massive burden on local taxpayers who cannot possibly cover the entire cost of new construction / updating their city's aging infrastructure [due to the ever-rising cost of construction]. Hence the increasing use of multiple-source funding, melding everything from public / private partnerships to Federal & state funds in order to build or re-build bridges, construct new roads / highways or re-design / move roads, etc.
Mr Khanna did not mention, but i happen to know, that many municipalities cannot even afford to REPLACE the old, leaking / rusting / cracked / blocked pipes in their city's water systems. Rather than spend the large sums needed to overhaul & update the entire system, they "update" only the parts that fail catastrophically - geysers of water rupturing the street paving gets a section upgraded.
This is a dam*ed strange way to "upgrade" pipes that in many Eastern cities have been underground with no maintenance for a century or two! Plus, it's more disruptive & expensive - traffic is screwed up abruptly vs planned alt-routes, there's property damage, & piece-by-piece isn't cost effective. It's not a bid process, it's a crisis, a series of crises, & any plumber charges more for being hauled out of bed @ 1-am vs doing a planned retrofit.
.
He explained that more regions are integrating as economic & political co-operating units, similar to the EU - in East Africa, Asia, etc. Such regional collectives can plan & implement CURRENT new / updated infrastructure, far-more effectively than any single city or country, especially small, weak nations that are landlocked.
I want to get a copy of his book - _'Connectography'_
.
All this to say that as the UK departs the EU, the UK seems to be out of step with the trend to link with nearby nations & form regional units to deal with common concerns & mutual interests, avoid conflict, & negotiate problems.
.
.
.


----------



## CuddleMonster

Talking of morphing posts, I was interested to note that the poll on which way you were* going to vote* acquired an extra 13 votes for leave *after* the referendum


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, RottiePointerHouse

...
@leashedForLife
I'm sorry I don't have time to answer your reply in detail, but suffice to say the paragraph I've quoted above is the one I found unprofessional and nasty. I see you stand by the comment - "yes, Satori, take it personally" - so there isn't much else to say on that, other than I am shocked to hear a health care worker speak to someone like that .
I'm sorry if my post came across as "prissy and uninformative", it wasn't intended to, & no I don't have a problem or an issue with you.
/QUOTE
.
.
thanks for that, RPH, i appreciate the confirmation.
I *am* sorry that my comment upset U, but i don't think i'll achieve sainthood in this life - nor in the next 3 or 4 incarnations, most likely. 
I'm glad U haven't took agin me in any permanent sense. I've always appreciated Ur sound advice in the Dog-Behavior / Dog-Chat forums, & would be very sorry to have a personal tiff create bad feeling. Meanwhile, Satori is quite unfazed &, i'm sure,will continue to delight us with thoughtless 'jokes' that contain razor-blades. Toujours gai!, quoth Mehitabel. 
.
.
.


----------



## noushka05

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> I just saw Michael Moore's 2007 documentary _'Sicko'_ night before last, amazing! -
> I remember being nauseated by my own emotional distress, when I heard that 9/11 responders were suffering the tortures of the dam*ed with serious medical fallout from their exposure, & NO ONE was helping them. My eyes filled with tears & my stomach rolled over, seeing them hacking & wheezing, tormented by PTSD, in pain, in debt, & listening to bureaucrats explain why we didn't owe them anything. Grotesque barstewards.
> Among other eye-opening moments, Moore took a group of half-treated, semi-diagnosed, desperate 9/11 responders to Cuba, where Guantanamo Base turned them away with sirens [the GB prisoners have state-of-the-art medical facilities & a patient / Dr ratio of 4 to 1], & then to a Cuban hospital - where they were treated for nothing, & one woman got her $120 inhalers for the equivalent of 5-cents each. She was in tears of joy.
> .
> https://freedocumentaries.org/documentary/sicko
> .
> I don't think anyone in the UK or Canada could comprehend the huge weight of the medical juggernaut in the USA - fully 75% of all U-S bankruptcies begin as medical problems & medical debt.
> "Socialized medicine" was the curse-word that kept American citizens chained to the industrialized world's most expensive & least effective medical system.
> .
> .
> England at the end of WW-II was nearly bankrupt, battered, her capitol in ruins, her citizens still living under severe austerity - but She established medical care for everyone - because if money could be found to kill people, money could be found to make them well, or keep them well.
> .
> .
> 5 must-see medical docus:
> http://www.healthcaredive.com/news/5-must-see-healthcare-documentaries/280998/
> .
> *If the UK allows a conservative government to dismantle the healthcare system that was painstakingly built since 1945, her citizens today are utter fools - IMO.*
> .
> .
> .


*"If the UK allows a conservative government to dismantle the healthcare system that was painstakingly built since 1945, her citizens today are utter fools - IMO."

This post brexit government is even more extreme than the toxic Cameron front bench & keeping Health Secretary Hunt is conclusive proof they want him to finish the job of destroying the NHS. The Government has just sneaked through the cut to nurses burseries- an already understaffed health service about to get so much worse!. 60 million of us rely on the NHS, & yet many don't realise (are in denial or just plain don't care!) that our beloved NHS is in final meltdown. 

The NHS is Collapsing https://juniordoctorblog.com/2016/07/14/the-nhs-is-collapsing-part-1-a-life-in-a-day-of-the-nhs/*

*Posted on **July 14, 2016July 22, 2016** by **juniordoctorblog* 

So May is in, Hunt stays, Brexit means Brexit. It's all change in a crazy week of politics. But what hasn't changed is the NHS is still about to collapse. May will likely be the last Prime Minister to oversee its demise.

*

















*


----------



## Happy Paws2

So nothing has changed just a new face at the helm.


----------



## havoc

Happy Paws said:


> So nothing has changed just a new face at the helm.


Why did you think anything would change? We haven't had an election and a change of government.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Happy Paws said:


> So nothing has changed just a new face at the helm.


What were you expecting to change - we voted to leave the EU not for a change of government.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
Noushka,
i don't LIKE the news re NHS & nurses' post-grad debts, but i very-much appreciate U bringing the information here, thank U kindly - i wish we could still give rep. 
.
Meantime, on the other side of the Pond, we have the Hair-Don't running for POTUS, & he's vowed to repeal the health-care act as soon as he's elected - God forfend! *shudder*
That braying strawberry-blonde donkey claims he'll "speak for those who've been left out", but oddly, he's not announced the repeal of health-care for HIMSELF if elected to the Oval Office, nor has he said he'll repeal health-care for his Veep, for the Senate & Congress, or the rest of the D-C bureaucracy. Only for citizens. Hmmm...
.

.


----------



## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> *"If the UK allows a conservative government to dismantle the healthcare system that was painstakingly built since 1945, her citizens today are utter fools - IMO."*


Nouska.. 350million per week is going to be spent on the NHS 

Remember the advert:


----------



## KittenKong

Never seen that before. It's appalling!

Clever how they said "could" rather than "would", but by the video one would presume the latter, especially when captioned "Outside the EU"


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> one would presume the latter


Plenty did.


----------



## Satori

Seems like a good ad to me. The production is simple, the message clear and the emotional tug adds to the case. Quality stuff.


----------



## Honeys mum

UK economy booms as Britain see investment rush following Brexit vote | UK | News | Daily Express

GSK: UK still 'attractive' post Brexit as it invests £275m - BBC News

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/694050/Britain-invest-UK-Brexit-economy-investment-vote


----------



## Happy Paws2

On the news last night a small company who has it import materials from abroad is having to pay over 14% more for their materials and say they may have to close.


----------



## Jonescat

I think it depends on exactly what your company does. Overall perhaps there will be trend one way or another but individually there are going to be casualties as well as successes. Papers just swing it they way you want them to.


----------



## KittenKong

Yes, especially those who backed the Leave campaign which accounts for 95% of the press.

There was something in the news yesterday about the economy growing some 0.6%. That figure was for April to June before the referendum vote.

Only time will tell, the UK hasn't even activated Article 50 yet, let alone left the EU.


----------



## havoc

What's going to matter is 1, 2, 10 years from now.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Honeys mum said:


> UK economy booms as Britain see investment rush following Brexit vote | UK | News | Daily Express
> 
> GSK: UK still 'attractive' post Brexit as it invests £275m - BBC News


http://order-order.com/2016/07/27/242535/


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/comp...-and-close-200-branches/ar-BBuYLPH?li=BBoPOOl


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> UK economy booms as Britain see investment rush following Brexit vote | UK | News | Daily Express
> GSK: UK still 'attractive' post Brexit as it invests £275m - BBC News


Rather than cherry picking propaganda what is the reality?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...economic-outlook-resulting-from-a7157771.html

I wonder who employs the most people overall. Large companies who can take a hit or small/medium companies who are more likely to suffer.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/comp...-and-close-200-branches/ar-BBuYLPH?li=BBoPOOl


KittenKong, Lloyds bank planned to axe a total of 9000 jobs in 2014. So what's new, I don't think they can blame that on brexit.
Seems to be the norm now, blame brexit for everything.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/comp...-and-close-200-branches/ar-BBuYLPH?li=BBoPOOl


The BBC said it was because of the very low interest rates and on line banking.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> KittenKong, Lloyds bank planned to axe a total of 9000 jobs in 2014. So what's new, I don't think they can blame that on brexit.
> Seems to be the norm now, blame brexit for everything.


I posted the link to contradict the pro Leave links which appear to suggest Brexit will create job.

You're right through, any big business who were planning to cut jobs anyway may blame Brexit. If it wasn't that they would blame something else.

As mentioned earlier it's too early to predict either way. There's bound to be winners and losers.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed but in the same sense one cannot say GSK are investing more in the UK because of Brexi


 To my knowledge I didn't quote anywhere that they were.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> On the news last night a small company who has it import materials from abroad is having to pay over 14% more for their materials and say they may have to close.


I have noticed the difference in pricing as I import and resell a product from the US. The batch I purchased 2 weeks ago has gone up £14 per product, the product price hasn't changed in the US it is the exchange rate that has caused the price increase. I had to have a serious chat with the company I resell for on Sunday last week about what to do so I can carry on reselling in the UK. Various measures where agreed to and we reworked my pricing structure so it absorbs the impact from the pound hitting all time lows. Fingers crossed I can continue reselling this product through this period of instability.


----------



## Satori

ezcompleteukreseller said:


> I have noticed the difference in pricing as I import and resell a product from the US. The batch I purchased 2 weeks ago has gone up £14 per product, the product price hasn't changed in the US it is the exchange rate that has caused the price increase. I had to have a serious chat with the company I resell for on Sunday last week about what to do so I can carry on reselling in the UK. Various measures where agreed to and we reworked my pricing structure so it absorbs the impact from the pound hitting all time lows. Fingers crossed I can continue reselling this product through this period of instability.


Kudos to you. That's what good businesses do; find a way through. You'll push some pricing pressure up the chain and absorb some and consider pushing some to the customer if needs be, especially if your price / offer is already competitive. Then when things turn around you revisit your strategy. If you were a long established bigger business, I have no doubt you would have purchased a forward EUR contract to hedge the brexit risk too.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> To my knowledge I didn't quote anywhere that they were.


No you didn't. I apologise for any misunderstanding and have edited my post accordingly.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Kudos to you. That's what good businesses do; find a way through. You'll push some pricing pressure up the chain and absorb some and consider pushing some to the customer if needs be, especially if your price / offer is already competitive. Then when things turn around you revisit your strategy. If you were a long established bigger business, I have no doubt you would have purchased a forward EUR contract to hedge the brexit risk too.


No I am not a bigger established business I am simply a small time person trying to make a living out of reselling a product I feel passionate about and believe in that happens to belong to a US Company


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, MiffyMoo

http://order-order.com/2016/07/27/242535/

/QUOTE
.
.
Who or what is 'Guido Fawkes'? -- Sounds like a fake name for a bunch of pranksters
.
EXCERPT,
_"GlaxoSmithKline has announced £275 million of fresh investment, _
_London's City Airport is getting a £344 million expansion, _
_& Deutsche Börse's shareholders overwhelmingly approved its merger with the London Stock Exchange."_
_._
It's odds-on likely that GSK planned this 'fresh investment' a year or more back, & decided not to cancel it - vs suddenly being thrilled by the prospect of investing in a Brexit Britain / UK severed from EU.
.
2nd,
An international-airport expansion also isn't a spur-of-the-moment endeavor, & whether or not traffic / use will be as heavy as predicted *before* the UK left the EU, when they thought they'd need an expansion, is a matter that's several years away - the proof being in the pudding.
.
3rd,
Any vote by the _Börse _shareholders over 50% in favor would approve the motion to join the the LSE - 
what percentage is 'overwhelming'? -- 60%? 70? 95%? - I don't know. And how many actually voted?
Re any stockholder vote, the Board of Directors of any corporation usually carry the day, anyway, as their votes are the ones with weight; many stockholders don't bother to vote at all, on large questions. They often feel they don't know enuf to vote one way or the other [kinda like many residents of the EU in the referendum], & they hope that the well-informed BoD will choose a beneficial course.
They also know full well that if they disagree with the BoD's majority vote, it's useless. To quote the Borg, _'Resistance is futile.'_
_._
If there are a half-million _Börse_ shareholders & 20% voted, that leaves 80% unpolled. If 90% of the 20% who voted, vote 'merge', that's "overwhelming approval" - but in terms of the entire body of shareholders, it's a small fraction [18%].
Without knowing how many voted AND what fraction voted which way, we can't say definitively what the opinions of the stockholders are / were.
.
My mother was a small-time investor who bought stock in the 1980s; i know that she voted maybe 1 time in 20 votes, at best, & she wasn't atypical. From reading the material sent out by the companies, shareholders in general didn't vote unless it was a highly-emotional issue for them - divesting from South Africa, for instance. Otherwise, they sit it out & wait to see which way the BoD votes.
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.strongerin.co.uk/the_new_british_passport#dFrs51mgi5MWstCe.97


----------



## Happy Paws2

The British Passport will be back as soon as your old one is out of date. So if you've just had a new one it will be ten years before you have a British one.


----------



## shadowmare

KittenKong said:


> http://www.strongerin.co.uk/the_new_british_passport#dFrs51mgi5MWstCe.97


LOL


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Happy Paws:

... if you've just gotten a new [EU passport], it will be ten years before you have a British one.

/QUOTE
.
.
Has there been an official announcement, saying that? By whom, please?
.
If there has been, it seems more than a little premature - & if it came from the UK govt, it doesn't count, in any case. The UK can't make that assurance.
EU passports are issued by the EU - its member-states, & / or their collective reps in Brussels, would decide when current EU passports held by UK citizens would expire or become invalid. Since article 50 hasn't been invoked yet, everything is in limbo.
.
As with so many things re the Brexit departure, the answer for the near-future is, "we don't know yet" - unless Brussels has announced that all EU passports already issued to UK citizens will continue to be valid until they expire; if so, i'd like a link to the news-story, please.
.
.
.


----------



## Satori

Satori said:


> I do hope so. Time's person of the year for 2016 is already in the bag I would think. A knighthood would be appropriate too, though I don't know if that would float his boat.


Yaaay. He made the shortlist. Top man,

A national treasure our Nige'. We should feel proud.


----------



## Honeys mum

Satori said:


> A national treasure our Nige'. We should feel proud.


He's on Question Time this Thursday, looking forward to watching that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Yaaay. He made the shortlist. Top man,
> 
> A national treasure our Nige'. We should feel proud.


Donald Trump is up as well.
Good on Nige.


----------



## jenny armour

i know a lot of people don't like nigel farage, but I think its because he speaks his mind and says what a lot of people probably don't want to hear. I only hope this government don't start backtracking on what brexit was supposed to be about. looking forward to seeing nigel on question time on Thursday, he gets everyone going does nige' lol


----------



## noushka05

jenny armour said:


> i know a lot of people don't like nigel farage, but I think its because he speaks his mind and says what a lot of people probably don't want to hear. I only hope this government don't start backtracking on what brexit was supposed to be about. looking forward to seeing nigel on question time on Thursday, he gets everyone going does nige' lol


He's a lying racist, I can't stand the man. Sorry.


----------



## Goblin

jenny armour said:


> i know a lot of people don't like nigel farage, but I think its because he speaks his mind and says what a lot of people probably don't want to hear. I only hope this government don't start backtracking on what brexit was supposed to be about. looking forward to seeing nigel on question time on Thursday, he gets everyone going does nige' lol


He's simply a liar who pretends he's something he is not. All this propaganda about fishermen and the EU yet he was responsible for representing them in the EU but did not even bother to attend mettings to do so. He's a master of spin, not decency. Nothing to do with speaking his mind.

As for the government backtracking, I'd like to know what Brexit was supposed to be about. Leave the EU doesn't exactly state any conditions and under what terms. Nothing was stated and fixed beforehand.


----------



## jenny armour

everyone to their own opinion, that is what being English I hope is all about

[QUOTE="noushka05, post: 1064720501, member: 2189"
]He's a lying racist, I can't stand the man. Sorry.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> He's a lying racist, I can't stand the man. Sorry.


That's your opinion noushka05 of which you are entitled to.
My opinion is of which I'm entitled to that he just speaks his mind.

As jenny armour says, we are all entitled to our own opinion.


----------



## KittenKong

jenny armour said:


> i know a lot of people don't like nigel farage, but I think its because he speaks his mind and says what a lot of people probably don't want to hear. I only hope this government don't start backtracking on what brexit was supposed to be about. looking forward to seeing nigel on question time on Thursday, he gets everyone going does nige' lol


Farage is not in government, he's not even an MP. What right does he have in dictating government policy?


----------



## noushka05

jenny armour said:


> everyone to their own opinion, that is what being English I hope is all about
> 
> 
> 
> noushka05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's your opinion noushka05 of which you are entitled to.
> My opinion is of which I'm entitled to that he just speaks his mind.
> 
> As jenny armour says, we are all entitled to our own opinion.
Click to expand...

Yes its my opinion & its based on facts. There's plenty of evidence proving Farage is a serial liar & a racist. Heck, even his teachers labelled him a racist, a fascist, a neo-fascist. Farage is dangerous.


----------



## noushka05

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, MiffyMoo
> 
> http://order-order.com/2016/07/27/242535/
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> *Who or what is 'Guido Fawkes'? --* Sounds like a fake name for a bunch of pranksters
> .
> EXCERPT,
> _"GlaxoSmithKline has announced £275 million of fresh investment, _
> _London's City Airport is getting a £344 million expansion, _
> _& Deutsche Börse's shareholders overwhelmingly approved its merger with the London Stock Exchange."_
> _._
> It's odds-on likely that GSK planned this 'fresh investment' a year or more back, & decided not to cancel it - vs suddenly being thrilled by the prospect of investing in a Brexit Britain / UK severed from EU.
> .
> 2nd,
> An international-airport expansion also isn't a spur-of-the-moment endeavor, & whether or not traffic / use will be as heavy as predicted *before* the UK left the EU, when they thought they'd need an expansion, is a matter that's several years away - the proof being in the pudding.
> .
> 3rd,
> Any vote by the _Börse _shareholders over 50% in favor would approve the motion to join the the LSE -
> what percentage is 'overwhelming'? -- 60%? 70? 95%? - I don't know. And how many actually voted?
> Re any stockholder vote, the Board of Directors of any corporation usually carry the day, anyway, as their votes are the ones with weight; many stockholders don't bother to vote at all, on large questions. They often feel they don't know enuf to vote one way or the other [kinda like many residents of the EU in the referendum], & they hope that the well-informed BoD will choose a beneficial course.
> They also know full well that if they disagree with the BoD's majority vote, it's useless. To quote the Borg, _'Resistance is futile.'_
> _._
> If there are a half-million _Börse_ shareholders & 20% voted, that leaves 80% unpolled. If 90% of the 20% who voted, vote 'merge', that's "overwhelming approval" - but in terms of the entire body of shareholders, it's a small fraction [18%].
> Without knowing how many voted AND what fraction voted which way, we can't say definitively what the opinions of the stockholders are / were.
> .
> My mother was a small-time investor who bought stock in the 1980s; i know that she voted maybe 1 time in 20 votes, at best, & she wasn't atypical. From reading the material sent out by the companies, shareholders in general didn't vote unless it was a highly-emotional issue for them - divesting from South Africa, for instance. Otherwise, they sit it out & wait to see which way the BoD votes.
> .
> .
> .


Guido Fawkes aka Paul Staines - he's one of Murdoch's puppets. I think that's all you need to know lol


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Guido Fawkes aka Paul Staines - he's one of Murdoch's puppets. I think that's all you need to know lol


We've already had the conversation about that post. You bored and looking to stir it up again?


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> We've already had the conversation about that post. You bored and looking to stir it up again?


You never even crossed my mind when I answered LFLs question.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Yaaay. He made the shortlist. Top man,
> 
> A national treasure our Nige'. We should feel proud.


You realise that people actually took it in earnest...obviously...
Oh well. NutAll will be next...
I do not know whether to laugh or despair...
Probably laugh...I like it noir..


----------



## Honeys mum

Satori said:


> A national treasure our Nige'. We should feel proud.


Nigel Farage on Time's person of year shortlist - BBC News

Well done Nige.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
thanks, Noushka, for the explication . 
.
Re "good ol' Nigel", he's much-like DJT -
if Trumpling weren't an ethics-free barsteward with a long history of unethical business tactics [which not shockingly, advance his own interests at any co$t whatever to the Other - even when the Other is his own employee, his supplier, his contractor, his business partner],
he'd still be a racist bigot, knee-jerk homophobe, misogynist twit, & a sexist pig.
Not to mention he's a loudmouthed egomaniac, whose current 'opinion' on any topic depends entirely on who last tried to convince him of their viewpoint - except for such blatant facts as global climate change, women being just as capable as men, the outright FAILURE of 'trickle-down' Reaganomics, & the danger of de-regulation, when suddenly he goes stone-deaf to facts in any form.
.
.
if U could deduct all DJT's worst flaws, the bigotry, sexism, homophobia, his repeated failure to PAY HIS BILLS & to FULFILL CONTRACTS...
U'd still have a privileged git who has been endlessly cushioned from the everyday realities of mere mortals who don't live with gold-plated toilet fixtures & 6-digit personal-spending allowance for "my worst year".
.
.
his ego is not the size of his I.Q., it's 10X that; he's misinformed, pays ZERO attn to the 'daily briefing', & prefers to get all his news via Twitter & other social media - IOW, pre-digested pablum that's tailored to fit his prejudices; nothing contradictory, nothing to shake his monocular view.
.
he can't follow a train of thought to a logical conclusion, & has the attn-span of a gnat, his direction altered by every wisp of breeze.
He's highly opinionated, has a powerful self-worth, & sincerely believes he knows better than anyone else - knows better than the generals what the military situation is, knows better than the scientists or even the data what the global environment is doing, knows better than the American citizens [70% of whom think marriage equality & same-sex partner benefits are right & just, & 75% believe only the pregnant woman can decide to carry a pregnancy to term] "what they want".
He only listens to the loud shrieks of conservative minorities, not the more-reasoned talk of majority opinion.
.
He's like every parrot i've ever met - loves color, noise, & emotional drama; a good fight is as much fun as a happy shared meal, & screaming is an actual physical need.
He's illogical, self-willed, & can't read a speech from a Teleprompter without going off-script.
.
in short, he's not a politician; he's a disaster.
I also think he's dangerous, not only to the U-S but the world.
.
.
.


----------



## Satori

leashedForLife said:


> .
> thanks, Noushka, for the explication .
> .
> Re "good ol' Nigel", he's much-like DJT -
> if Trumpling weren't an ethics-free barsteward with a long history of unethical business tactics [which not shockingly, advance his own interests at any co$t whatever to the Other - even when the Other is his own employee, his supplier, his contractor, his business partner],
> he'd still be a racist bigot, knee-jerk homophobe, misogynist twit, & a sexist pig.
> Not to mention he's a loudmouthed egomaniac, whose current 'opinion' on any topic depends entirely on who last tried to convince him of their viewpoint - except for such blatant facts as global climate change, women being just as capable as men, the outright FAILURE of 'trickle-down' Reaganomics, & the danger of de-regulation, when suddenly he goes stone-deaf to facts in any form.
> .
> .
> if U could deduct all DJT's worst flaws, the bigotry, sexism, homophobia, his repeated failure to PAY HIS BILLS & to FULFILL CONTRACTS...
> U'd still have a privileged git who has been endlessly cushioned from the everyday realities of mere mortals who don't live with gold-plated toilet fixtures & 6-digit personal-spending allowance for "my worst year".
> .
> .
> his ego is not the size of his I.Q., it's 10X that; he's misinformed, pays ZERO attn to the 'daily briefing', & prefers to get all his news via Twitter & other social media - IOW, pre-digested pablum that's tailored to fit his prejudices; nothing contradictory, nothing to shake his monocular view.
> .
> he can't follow a train of thought to a logical conclusion, & has the attn-span of a gnat, his direction altered by every wisp of breeze.
> He's highly opinionated, has a powerful self-worth, & sincerely believes he knows better than anyone else - knows better than the generals what the military situation is, knows better than the scientists or even the data what the global environment is doing, knows better than the American citizens [70% of whom think marriage equality & same-sex partner benefits are right & just, & 75% believe only the pregnant woman can decide to carry a pregnancy to term] "what they want".
> He only listens to the loud shrieks of conservative minorities, not the more-reasoned talk of majority opinion.
> .
> He's like every parrot i've ever met - loves color, noise, & emotional drama; a good fight is as much fun as a happy shared meal, & screaming is an actual physical need.
> He's illogical, self-willed, & can't read a speech from a Teleprompter without going off-script.
> .
> in short, he's not a politician; he's a disaster.
> I also think he's dangerous, not only to the U-S but the world.
> .
> .
> .


Well nobody is perfect.


----------



## 1290423

Out, voted out on 26th would vote the same again


----------



## 1290423

Satori said:


> Well nobody is perfect.


Agreed,, they are just minor flaws


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Out,* voted out on 26th *would vote the same again


Well you was a bit late voting. The referendum was on the 23rd June  Your vote wouldn't have been counted and null and voided as it was late :Muted


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Agreed,, they are just minor flaws


Major flaw if you voted on the 26th and everyone else voted on the 23rd June and before hand for postal votes etc.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Well you was a bit late voting. The referendum was on the 23rd June  Your vote wouldn't have been counted and null and voided as it was late :Muted[/QUOTE


----------



## 1290423

I was just checking that everyone was on the ball x. Don't worry, I was there on 23rd


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Out, voted out on 26th would vote the same again


I'd vote out/leave over and over and over again like the majority of the leave voters would. So bring on a second Referendum (it ain't going to happen but hypothetically speaking bring it on) it wouldn't change my mind and I wasn't voting by what anyone said on TV, in the newspapers etc. I voted for my own personal reasons and no one would change my mind ever, forever.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I'd vote out/leave over and over and over again like the majority of the leave voters would. So bring on a second Referendum (it ain't going to happen but hypothetically speaking bring it on) it wouldn't change my mind and I wasn't voting by what anyone said on TV, in the newspapers etc. I voted for my own personal reasons and no one would change my mind ever, forever.


Thus my favourite. Not many Leave voters actually can coherently say why they voted for Brexit..
It is or negative ( not about immigration and not about 350 mln weekly for NHS ) not because of propaganda...but it is " had my own reasons.."..
And not because of nostalgia " want it back ..as it was before EEC and during the Empire ..and when Rovers roamed the Earth"...
Time machine anyone?

Or re-enacting society? Very popular pastime...but to go wholesale?


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Thus my favourite. Not many Leave voters actually can coherently say why they voted for Brexit..
> It is or negative ( not about immigration and not about 350 mln weekly for NHS ) not because of propaganda...but it is " had my own reasons.."..
> And not because of nostalgia " want it back ..as it was before EEC and during the Empire ..and when Rovers roamed the Earth"...
> Time machine anyone?
> 
> Or re-enacting society? Very popular pastime...but to go wholesale?
> 
> View attachment 292709


The judges have just used their powers to sabatage the wishes of the majority,. This will end in tears!


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Thus my favourite. Not many Leave voters actually can coherently say why they voted for Brexit..
> It is or negative ( not about immigration and not about 350 mln weekly for NHS ) not because of propaganda...but it is " had my own reasons.."..
> And not because of nostalgia " want it back ..as it was before EEC and during the Empire ..and when Rovers roamed the Earth"...
> Time machine anyone?
> 
> Or re-enacting society? Very popular pastime...but to go wholesale?
> 
> View attachment 292709


I thought everyone in Gibraltar voted remain, even though they don't like Spain (EU Country) trying to to take the rock back. So do you know many people that voted leave in Gibraltar?


----------



## 1290423

I can say exactly why I voted for brexit actually! I hate brussell sprouts.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> The judges have just used their powers to sabatage the wishes of the majority,. This will end in tears!


Wow they are working late and they have made a decision before the court case had ended, two days left yet and they said a decision wouldn't be announced until January 2017.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Thus my favourite. Not many Leave voters actually can coherently say why they voted for Brexit..
> It is or negative ( not about immigration and not about 350 mln weekly for NHS ) not because of propaganda...but it is " had my own reasons.."..
> And not because of nostalgia " want it back ..as it was before EEC and during the Empire ..and when Rovers roamed the Earth"...
> Time machine anyone?
> 
> Or re-enacting society? Very popular pastime...but to go wholesale?
> 
> View attachment 292709


Well I voted leave so that the NHS would get that £350m per week. You aren't saying that isn't true are you?


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> Wow they are working late and they have made a decision before the court case had ended, two days left yet and they said a decision wouldn't be announced until January 2017.


I think they made their decision before the case started.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Thus my favourite. Not many Leave voters actually can coherently say why they voted for Brexit..
> It is or negative ( not about immigration and not about 350 mln weekly for NHS ) not because of propaganda...but it is " had my own reason
> 
> View attachment 292709


Let's turn the tables shall we, let's ask those who voted remain for what reason they did so?


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
let's see, voting to remain...
Being part of a larger economic union, capturing economies of scale, getting advantageous prices in trade agreements.
Allowing EU citizens to "go where the job / school / love-of-my-life / internship / adventure / experience is", without wasting a lot of time, money & effort over borders & customs -
thus easing unemployment in some areas, & providing workers where they're needed, among other handy helps.
Being able to consider & act on things which affect all member-countries as a group, rather than solo - climate-change, anyone?... Rising sea levels?... Rising temps?... Changing rainfall patterns?... Immigration?... Emigration?... Tourism?... Terrorism?...
the list of common interests is endless.
.
.
Co-operating rather than competing also is an advantage, in many ways - not merely in trade; medical & scientific research, higher education, pollution controls, water quality & riverine habitats, protecting watersheds.
.
I can list hundreds of valid reasons to stay in the E.U., & i'm not a European. Surely someone in a member country can think of one or 2 that would be important reasons to remain?
.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Let's turn the tables shall we, let's ask those who voted remain for what reason they did so?


@DT I posted lots of times why to Remain:
We are part of Europe. Few mikes of water is nothing. We are strong trading bloc together.
Sanctions against Russia were working.
Split if EU benefits only Russia. Destabilizing further world situation.
If EU/ US are no longer leading powers then who is? Russia, China..?
Do they care about human rights, animal rights, climate change?
Brexit will damage pound ( and did..I was not lying.
Now Britain is downgraded to BBB ( same rating like for example Poland ..)..
NHS etc..would be greatly affected by further cuts...
Look: Putin is already growing into leader of Middle East! 
Manipulating OPEC!
So much for sanctions.
Our green issues, our animal protection would suffer.
Green belts etc..as no one would stop new constructions while jobs are needed to staff off recession.
Look: New Heathrow is going ahead.
Gibraltar will be destroyed as economy.
My office would be most likely moved to Malta to stay in EU...

I do not know what may happen twenty years from now..
I have children and animals to feed right now.

I think Brexit had pivotal effect on US election aka "Make America great again"...

I liked freedom of movement.

I am aware of EU overregulating and Merkel has lots to answer for giving fuel to far right!
But still...it was better to stay.

Brexit will not deliver.
Too many contradictory and unrealistic expectations.

Do not forget 16.5 mln voted to stay.How many more are realising Brexit is a sham?


----------



## rona

leashedForLife said:


> Being part of a larger economic union, capturing economies of scale, getting advantageous prices in trade agreements.


Protectionism



leashedForLife said:


> Allowing EU citizens to "go where the job / school / love-of-my-life / internship / adventure / experience is", without wasting a lot of time, money & effort over borders & customs -
> thus easing unemployment in some areas, & providing workers where they're needed, among other handy helps.


That would be fine if so many didn't want to live in a tiny island.



leashedForLife said:


> Being able to consider & act on things which affect all member-countries as a group, rather than solo - climate-change, anyone?... Rising sea levels?... Rising temps?... Changing rainfall patterns?... Immigration?... Emigration?... Tourism?... Terrorism?...
> the list of common interests is endless.


Or not act as is often the case because they all have to agree 



leashedForLife said:


> Co-operating rather than competing also is an advantage, in many ways - not merely in trade; medical & scientific research, higher education, pollution controls, water quality & riverine habitats, protecting watersheds.


Most of my adult life has been spent within the EU, and I can tell you for sure that they haven't protected the planet or environment....far from it!!


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Most of my adult life has been spent within the EU, and I can tell you for sure that they haven't protected the planet or environment....far from it!!


Really, so tell me, where did the regulations come from which means the UK beaches are clean, without sewage which used to be the norm? Used to live on the coast and remember the problem.

Quite funny you take that attitude considering http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

Do you want environmental rules like China or India?

Okay not saying the UK would be the as bad but could easily head in the same direction when environment protection becomes inconvenient:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ion-people-every-year/?utm_term=.daafa68ec4d3 or http://www.earthporm.com/23-shocking-photos-reveal-bad-chinas-pollution-problem-become/


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Let's turn the tables shall we, let's ask those who voted remain for what reason they did so?


Done so lots of times on this forum and information based on facts. Let's start with:


> providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.


Now DT, your turn.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Done so lots of times on this forum and information based on facts. Let's start with:
> 
> Now DT, your turn.


Ive already said, read back.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Yaaay. He made the shortlist. Top man,
> 
> A national treasure our Nige'. We should feel proud.


Donald Trump won the Time Magazine Person of the Year 2016.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38238892?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Donald Trump won the Time Magazine Person of the Year.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38238892?


Not a surprise. Provides lots to write about. Good money for magazines.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Donald Trump won the Time Magazine Person of the Year 2016.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38238892?


I'm guessing whoever designed the cover isn't a fan, that's a nice red set of devil horns he appears to be sporting


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Let's turn the tables shall we, let's ask those who voted remain for what reason they did so?


Brexit could lead to the break-up of the EU.

A continent of competing, border-protecting, migrant-refusing, nationalistic states is more likely to end up shooting at one another than one that is tied together by currency, institutions and innumerable joint ventures.

I voted Remain so as not to weaken the long term chances for peace.


----------



## Arnie83

Trump was always going to win it. "Good ol Nigel" was a minor player in the end. The Leave camp refused to associate with him because he would have damaged their chances of success, and rightly so. The fact that he got on so well with Trump is hardly surprising, given their shared racist views.


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> Brexit could lead to the break-up of the EU.
> 
> A continent of competing, border-protecting, migrant-refusing, nationalistic states is more likely to end up shooting at one another than one that is tied together by currency, institutions and innumerable joint ventures.
> 
> I voted Remain so as not to weaken the long term chances for peace.


Personally I don't think any of the eu will be the cause of WW3 when it breaks out, not suggesting if, only when. And whether we are a part of the eu or not think that will be insignificant, and let's not forget we are in nato, not would I susoect will that offer much protection, the next war will bring out the big boys playing with their deadly toys, no winners, curtains for us all, just a matter of who survives the longest, but everything will be poisoned anyway so it's catch 47


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Personally I don't think any of the eu will be the cause of WW3 when it breaks out, not suggesting if, only when. And whether we are a part of the eu or not think that will be insignificant, and let's not forget we are in nato, not would I susoect will that offer much protection, the next war will bring out the big boys playing with their deadly toys, no winners, curtains for us all, just a matter of who survives the longest, but everything will be poisoned anyway so it's catch 47


I don't believe I mentioned WW3

People who die unnecessarily in 'minor skirmishes' and 'border incidents' still die.


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> Trump was always going to win it. "Good ol Nigel" was a minor player in the end. The Leave camp refused to associate with him because he would have damaged their chances of success, and rightly so. The fact that he got on so well with Trump is hardly surprising, given their shared racist views.


Why are we called rascist because we expect people settling In our country to learn our language, to value our customs, and not be disrespectful to our fallen soldiers, laws, rules etc?


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> I don't believe I mentioned WW3
> 
> People who die unnecessarily in 'minor skirmishes' and 'border incidents' still die.


Did I suggest you did?

You mentioned peace, we will never ever see true peace in the world!


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Brexit could lead to the break-up of the EU.
> 
> A continent of competing, border-protecting, migrant-refusing, nationalistic states is more likely to end up shooting at one another than one that is tied together by currency, institutions and innumerable joint ventures.
> 
> I voted Remain so as not to weaken the long term chances for peace.


We are not influential enough to cause uprisings in other countries. If they choose to exit, that is totally on them


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> We are not influential enough to cause uprisings in other countries. If they choose to exit, that is totally on them


I hope you're right. You only had to see the reaction of Le Pen, Wilders, etc to see how boosted they were. Brexit will give impetus to the ultra-nationalists. That's why I voted against it.

I could see no upsides that countered that increased risk. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Did I suggest you did?
> 
> You mentioned peace, we will never ever see true peace in the world!


Well, yes you did, really. In reply to my post you talked about WW3. It's sort of what the press did to Cameron, who never mentioned it either.



DT said:


> Why are we called rascist because we expect people settling In our country to learn our language, to value our customs, and not be disrespectful to our fallen soldiers, laws, rules etc?


"We"? I called Trump and Farage racists. No-one else.

Trump publicly and famously called Mexicans rapists and criminals. Farage said he would feel uncomfortable if a Romanian family moved in next to him.

Racist, by classic definition.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I hope you're right. You only had to see the reaction of Le Pen, Wilders, etc to see how boosted they were. Brexit will give impetus to the ultra-nationalists. That's why I voted against it.
> 
> I could see no upsides that countered that increased risk. I hope I'm wrong.


I understand your concerns with what is going on in the Netherlands with Geert Wilders but the reality of it all is he is soaring up the poll ratings and he is now seen at a local level as winning the elections on 15th March 2016.

On this table look at the last column on the right and compair them against this time last year, the year before etc (this table has been sourced from Geert Wilders twitter feed). Geert Wilders is the leader of the PVV Party in the Netherlands (who have 35 seats in Parliament and only needs 42 to win the next election that's 7 more seats).








If Geert Wilders does win a Netherlands Referendum to leave the EU will happen and we won't be alone around the negotiationing table in Brussels as from what I have heard because he is promising a Referendum the Dutch want this to happen.


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> Well, yes you did, really. In reply to my post you talked about WW3. It's sort of what the press did to Cameron, who never mentioned it either.
> 
> "We"? I called Trump and Farage racists. No-one else.
> 
> Trump publicly and famously called Mexicans rapists and criminals. Farage said he would feel uncomfortable if a Romanian family moved in next to him because.
> 
> Racist, by classic definition.


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> Well, yes you did, really. In reply to my post you talked about WW3. It's sort of what the press did to Cameron, who never mentioned it either.
> 
> "We"? I called Trump and Farage racists. No-one else.
> 
> Trump publicly and famously called Mexicans rapists and criminals. Farage said he would feel uncomfortable if a Romanian family moved in next to him because.
> 
> Racist, by classic definition.


Well fraid my views are pretty like Nigel's not saying I'd feel uncomfortable if a family of Romanians moved in next to me, but some families I may be uncomfortable about.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Donald Trump won the Time Magazine Person of the Year 2016.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38238892?


 congratulations mr trump, can't think of anyone more deserving, apart that is from mr farage of course


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> I hope you're right. You only had to see the reaction of Le Pen, Wilders, etc to see how boosted they were. Brexit will give impetus to the ultra-nationalists. That's why I voted against it.
> 
> I could see no upsides that countered that increased risk. I hope I'm wrong.


Do you honestly believe they had never thought of it, but the minute we did it they thought "Alez oop, zis is ze way forward"?


----------



## 1290423

Ok I'm miles off topic before anyone quotes me
But Anyone watching the illegal puppy trade from the eu? Ok what some of those are doing is illegal re the paperwork, , but forgetting that you can bring legally five dogs into the uk a time providing they are over 15 weeks old and have the correct paperwork. The eu really do care about those dogs don't they!
Now can someone remind me how much HMRC lose in revenue from illegal tobacco another problem we never had.
Just two areas where being in the eu has helped us immensely, by us, I mean the criminals amongst us.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Donald Trump won the Time Magazine Person of the Year 2016.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38238892?


So, Trump got his smug ugly mug on the cover of TIME magazine and is their Man of the year

Well, so phuqin what.

Adolf Hitler also got front cover of that same magazine and Joseph Stalin too, who, incidentally, just happened to have been their man of the year in 1940


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Ok I'm miles off topic before anyone quotes me
> But Anyone watching the illegal puppy trade from the eu? Ok what some of those are doing is illegal re the paperwork, , but forgetting that you can bring legally five dogs into the uk a time providing they are over 15 weeks old and have the correct paperwork. The eu really do care about those dogs don't they!
> Now can someone remind me how much HMRC lose in revenue from illegal tobacco another problem we never had.
> Just two areas where being in the eu has helped us immensely, by us, I mean the criminals amongst us.


I'll watch it after the Parliament vote at 7pm on MPs backing TMs plan to trigger article 50 on 31st March 2017 and vote on Brexit plans if they should be published. This has crashed my TV schedule tonight as it is more important. The votes will be live on freeview channel 131 the Parliament channel.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> He's a lying racist,


@noushka05: Should read: _''In my opinion_, NF is a lying racist''. This is a FORUM...it is all about personal _opinions _surely? There is much all of us could say about so many politicians, many have been caught out lying and fiddling expenses etc etc (unfortunately they are in a position of trust which enables them to do so) . ... some even jailed for lying about various things. NF has a German (? I believe) wife, so really cannot be as xenophobic as people imagine


----------



## MiffyMoo

DT said:


> Ok I'm miles off topic before anyone quotes me
> But Anyone watching the illegal puppy trade from the eu? Ok what some of those are doing is illegal re the paperwork, , but forgetting that you can bring legally five dogs into the uk a time providing they are over 15 weeks old and have the correct paperwork. The eu really do care about those dogs don't they!
> Now can someone remind me how much HMRC lose in revenue from illegal tobacco another problem we never had.
> Just two areas where being in the eu has helped us immensely, by us, I mean the criminals amongst us.


I can't find a listing for it. What is it called?


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> I can't find a listing for it. What is it called?


It was on our local news,x awful it was , x


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> Donald Trump won the Time Magazine Person of the Year 2016.


Oh no, I was hoping it would be Nige.


----------



## stockwellcat.

TM has the backing from Parliament to trigger article 50 by 31st March 2017 the 1st motion has been passed. 

























This may affect the Supreme Court Case which Gina Millar and crew have brought against the Government.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Labour amendment has just been passed for the publishing of the Brexit Plan before the 31st March 2017 (this is not the negotiationing hand). The vote is in favour of the Brexit plans being published so the Parliament is behind the Government. This is the Labour amendment. So all the backing is in place for the triggering of article 50. This will potentially have a serious impact on the Supreme Court Case. It will definitely affect the outcome.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Ok I'm miles off topic before anyone quotes me
> But Anyone watching the illegal puppy trade from the eu? Ok what some of those are doing is illegal re the paperwork, , but forgetting that you can bring legally five dogs into the uk a time providing they are over 15 weeks old and have the correct paperwork. The eu really do care about those dogs don't they!
> Now can someone remind me how much HMRC lose in revenue from illegal tobacco another problem we never had.
> Just two areas where being in the eu has helped us immensely, by us, I mean the criminals amongst us.


I couldn't find the illegal puppy trade from the EU programme so settled for Coronation Street on catch up


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> I couldn't find the illegal puppy trade from the EU programme so settled for Coronation Street on catch up


Duh, it was on the local news you muppet


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Duh, it was on the local news you muppet


Stop calling me muppet :Rage


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Stop calling me muppet :Rage


Sorry numpty xxx


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Sorry numpty xxx


I can just about put up with numpty


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> @noushka05: Should read: _''In my opinion_, NF is a lying racist''. This is a FORUM...it is all about personal _opinions _surely? There is much all of us could say about so many politicians, many have been caught out lying and fiddling expenses etc etc (unfortunately they are in a position of trust which enables them to do so) . ... some even jailed for lying about various things. NF has a German (? I believe) wife, so really cannot be as xenophobic as people imagine


Don't you ever base your opinions on evidence? Blimey And the evidence Farage is a lying racist is pretty damning - there's a flippin mountain range of it lol. Of course there are other bent politicians but this isn't about them, they shouldn't be used as an excuse to let Farage off the hook - IMO of course .

On what planet does being married to a Germen prevent someone from being a xenophobe?


----------



## noushka05

leashedForLife said:


> .
> thanks, Noushka, for the explication .
> .
> Re "good ol' Nigel", he's much-like DJT -
> if Trumpling weren't an ethics-free barsteward with a long history of unethical business tactics [which not shockingly, advance his own interests at any co$t whatever to the Other - even when the Other is his own employee, his supplier, his contractor, his business partner],
> he'd still be a racist bigot, knee-jerk homophobe, misogynist twit, & a sexist pig.
> Not to mention he's a loudmouthed egomaniac, whose current 'opinion' on any topic depends entirely on who last tried to convince him of their viewpoint - except for such blatant facts as global climate change, women being just as capable as men, the outright FAILURE of 'trickle-down' Reaganomics, & the danger of de-regulation, when suddenly he goes stone-deaf to facts in any form.
> .
> .
> if U could deduct all DJT's worst flaws, the bigotry, sexism, homophobia, his repeated failure to PAY HIS BILLS & to FULFILL CONTRACTS...
> U'd still have a privileged git who has been endlessly cushioned from the everyday realities of mere mortals who don't live with gold-plated toilet fixtures & 6-digit personal-spending allowance for "my worst year".
> .
> .
> his ego is not the size of his I.Q., it's 10X that; he's misinformed, pays ZERO attn to the 'daily briefing', & prefers to get all his news via Twitter & other social media - IOW, pre-digested pablum that's tailored to fit his prejudices; nothing contradictory, nothing to shake his monocular view.
> .
> he can't follow a train of thought to a logical conclusion, & has the attn-span of a gnat, his direction altered by every wisp of breeze.
> He's highly opinionated, has a powerful self-worth, & sincerely believes he knows better than anyone else - knows better than the generals what the military situation is, knows better than the scientists or even the data what the global environment is doing, knows better than the American citizens [70% of whom think marriage equality & same-sex partner benefits are right & just, & 75% believe only the pregnant woman can decide to carry a pregnancy to term] "what they want".
> He only listens to the loud shrieks of conservative minorities, not the more-reasoned talk of majority opinion.
> .
> He's like every parrot i've ever met - loves color, noise, & emotional drama; a good fight is as much fun as a happy shared meal, & screaming is an actual physical need.
> He's illogical, self-willed, & can't read a speech from a Teleprompter without going off-script.
> .
> in short, he's not a politician; he's a disaster.
> I also think he's dangerous, not only to the U-S but the world.
> .
> .
> .


No problem LFL.

Reaganomics in your country - Thatcherism in this country = Neoliberalism. And the root of all our evil according to George Monbiot (& other renowned intellectuals.)

See what you think about this really interesting Monbiot article - *Neoliberalism - the ideology at the root of all our problems.*

Financial meltdown, environmental disaster and even the rise of Donald Trump - Neoliberalism has played its part in them all. Why has the left failed to come up with an alternative? >> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

Yes the EU has done a lot to improve our environment. We were always known as the "DIRTY MAN OF EUROPE" until we were brought up to EU standards. Now Tory MP, Jacob Rees Mogg, is suggesting we cut back on safety & environmental standards & be more like India.  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html



DT said:


> Let's turn the tables shall we, let's ask those who voted remain for what reason they did so?


I'm sure you already know, but I'm going to say it anyway lol

I voted remain because I listened to the advice of renowned experts & trusted NGOs. I didn't know enough about the pros & cons to evaluate such a huge decision by myself & I wanted to be sure I did the very best thing for the environment - our natural world & for animals in general. They were pretty much unanimously urging us to vote remain. And as it happened experts in every corner, from the NHS professionals, to campaigners for social justice & so on were all saying the same thing. That we were better off IN the EU. Also we were warned by experts that the far right would be emboldened - & boy have they been proved right.



rona said:


> Protectionism
> 
> That would be fine if so many didn't want to live in a tiny island.
> 
> Or not act as is often the case because they all have to agree
> 
> *Most of my adult life has been spent within the EU, and I can tell you for sure that they haven't protected the planet or environment....far from it!![/*QUOTE]
> 
> .


Then you are blind. Environmental gains are one of the most important achievements of the EU. And now, as we were warned, we have a hard right Tory government, who will almost certainly lower environmental standards. And say we voted for it

At least my conscience is clear


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Do you honestly believe they had never thought of it, but the minute we did it they thought "Alez oop, zis is ze way forward"?


Of course not. What an odd suggestion.

It gave them a boost. Some people would see the UK doing it and think that it's a more valid option than they had thought before. The emboldened nationalists will point to the UK and say "If they can do it, why shouldn't we? It shows just how awful the EU is when a nation as respected as Britain decides to move on to a better future." And a few people will think yes, maybe they're right after all ...

It's on the margins where these sort of thing influence people. And since votes are sometimes very tight - like 51.9 v.48.1 - it's the margins that are incredibly important.

My personal opinion, with which many will disagree, is that it's a backward step for humanity.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> The Labour amendment has just been passed for the publishing of the Brexit Plan before the 31st March 2017 (this is not the negotiationing hand). The vote is in favour of the Brexit plans being published so the Parliament is behind the Government. This is the Labour amendment. So all the backing is in place for the triggering of article 50. This will potentially have a serious impact on the Supreme Court Case. It will definitely affect the outcome.


Neither of the votes should affect the court case. The vote did not change the law which is being discussed in the Supreme Court. Much as some Leavers think the supreme court judges should take into account events elsewhere, that's not the way it works.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Of course not. What an odd suggestion.
> 
> It gave them a boost. Some people would see the UK doing it and think that it's a more valid option than they had thought before. The emboldened nationalists will point to the UK and say "If they can do it, why shouldn't we? It shows just how awful the EU is when a nation as respected as Britain decides to move on to a better future." And a few people will think yes, maybe they're right after all ...
> 
> It's on the margins where these sort of thing influence people. And since votes are sometimes very tight - like 51.9 v.48.1 - it's the margins that are incredibly important.
> 
> My personal opinion, with which many will disagree, is that it's a backward step for humanity.


Why on earth is it a step back for humanity? Everything moves on and changes. If the people feel that something isn't working, surely it is positive that the people know that they can implement change.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Neither of the votes should affect the court case. The vote did not change the law which is being discussed in the Supreme Court. Much as some Leavers think the supreme court judges should take into account events elsewhere, that's not the way it works.


If you read further down I did say that this vote won't affect the supreme court case. But the court case is to answer one question and that is who triggers article 50 the Government or Parliament (nothing else)? I will be suprised if the Government win. Parliament showed last night they are behind TM and the Government (461 to 89) so the bill needed to trigger article 50 would be just be seen as going through the motions as the Government overwhelmingly has the backing of Parliament and the bill would pass with no problems.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## KittenKong

MiffyMoo said:


> Why on earth is it a step back for humanity? Everything moves on and changes. If the people feel that something isn't working, surely it is positive that the people know that they can implement change.


I agree things change and we have to move with the times.

What I don't agree with is moving back in time.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> View attachment 292889


Mathematically speaking Noush';..... Corporate Elitism + Violence = Fascism.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> I agree things change and we have to move with the times.
> 
> What I don't agree with is moving back in time.


Most things are cyclical and nothing can ever stay the same


----------



## samuelsmiles

I've always wondered why left wing _genuine _fascists (Castro) seem, often, to be held up as heroes?

You know, there must still be some World War Two Jewish holocaust survivors sitting comfortably in a warm home in this country who would rather disagree, and be offended, by this term being thrown about so casually.


----------



## Colliebarmy

I can see Greece, France and Italy leaving before the UK gets out


----------



## stockwellcat.

Colliebarmy said:


> I can see Greece, France and Italy leaving before the UK gets out


You forgot the Netherlands they have an Election on 15th March 2017 and if the PVV Party win there will be a in/out referendum there for a Nexit. The PVV are the most popular party at the moment at the moment simply because they have offered the referendum and they hold the most seats (35) in the Dutch Parliament the ruling left wing party the VVD has taken a hammering in the polls in the Netherlands from the PVV and lost alot of seats to the PVV.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> And the evidence Farage is a lying racist is pretty damning


@noushka05: Being concerned about _uncontrolled_ immigration does not, in my opinion, make someone a racist; if I myself were racist/xenophobic, I doubt I would have read German and Russian at University. Nor would I marry a German or a Russian. Get it?


----------



## DoodlesRule

Calvine said:


> @noushka05: Being concerned about _uncontrolled_ immigration does not, in my opinion, make someone a racist; if I myself were racist/xenophobic, I doubt I would have read German and Russian at University. Nor would I marry a German or a Russian. Get it?


Andy Burnhams latest comment: " There is nothing socialist about a system of open borders that allows multinationals to treat people as commodities and to move them around Europe to drive down labour costs and create a race to the bottom"


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lets face it the whole thing is falling apart, and we will *not* be the better for it.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Lets face it the whole thing is falling apart, and we will *not* be the better for it.


I think it is readjusting and it will for some time yet. If everyone is looking at our constitution and as a consequence, all our MPs not just a few have to be briefed on intent, then I think it must be a good thing.
None of this would have happened without our out vote and we would have had the same old, same old infinitum.
I truly believe that this will be a good move in the long term.......


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Mathematically speaking Noush';..... Corporate Elitism + Violence = Fascism.


Ain't that the truth!

And here's Mussolini's definition.












Calvine said:


> @noushka05: Being concerned about _uncontrolled_ immigration does not, in my opinion, make someone a racist; if I myself were racist/xenophobic, I doubt I would have read German and Russian at University. Nor would I marry a German or a Russian. Get it?


No, of course it doesn't, but using foreigners as scapegoats for everything that is wrong with this country does. And that is EXACTLY what the liar does - at every opportunity.

No I don't get it - I don't get your logic at all, Hitler married a German did he not?

Farage is cut from the same cloth as Trump and Le Pen. All of their campaigns are based on lies, populism & nationalism. They are a threat to democracy. https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers...ople-the-world?utm_term=.axpVjVALE#.fta6d6ZeA

So would you also argue Trump & Le Pen weren't racists & merely concerned with _uncontrolled _immigration?

This video of James O'Brien skewering the racist scumbag cant be shared enough


----------



## cheekyscrip

" It is fortunate for leaders that men do not think"


Adolf Hitler


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Why on earth is it a step back for humanity? Everything moves on and changes. If the people feel that something isn't working, surely it is positive that the people know that they can implement change.


Like I said, it is simply my opinion, but ...

When we evolved from tree to plains dwellers we lived in small tribes that attacked each other for better territories and more food.

Go forward 150,000 years or so and we called out territories 'countries' and attacked each other for bigger territories and more of the things that we valued.

Go forward to, let's say, 1861. The US Civil War between the secessionist Confederate states and the Union. Once that was settled, and they came together as one nation; internal peace, so far for over 150 years.

Go forward to the 20th century and Europe is a collection of numerous countries of various sizes all competing for trade, many having overseas territories - some calling themselves Empires - and indulging in numerous spats, two of which spread to other territories and cost millions of lives.

Since the European Coal and Steel Community was created - at Churchill's suggestion, among others - there has been internal peace, so far for over 70 years.

Now Britain want to leave. People like Farage, Wilders & Le Pen want the EU to break up into - guess what - a collection of competing states each wanting a bigger slice of the pie for its own indigenous population.

In My Opinion, not only does that forget the fact that we all came down from the same tree and are only different nationalities because we chose to draw borders in the first place, but it simply invites the repeat of a very old, a very savage tradition. And it's one we really should, as a species, be growing out of.


----------



## noushka05

I urge everyone who cares about democracy & justice to watch the video or read the transcript.
_
.*Cornel West on Donald Trump: This is What Neo-Fascism Looks Like*_

https://www.democracynow.org/2016/12/1/cornel_west_on_donald_trump_this

*CORNELWEST:* Well, neofascist, it's an American-style form of fascism. And what I mean by that is we've had a neoliberal rule, from Carter to Obama. That neoliberal rule left in place a national security state. It left in place massive surveillance. It left in place the ability of the president to kill an American citizen with no due process. That's Obama. That was the culmination of the neoliberal era. Now you get someone who's narcissistic, which is to say out of control psychologically, who is ideologically confused, which is to say in over his head. And who does he choose? The most right-wing, reactionary zealots, which lead toward the arbitrary deployment of law, which is what neofascism is, but to reinforce corporate interest, big bank interest, and to keep track of those of us who are cast as other-peoples of color, women, Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Mexicans and so forth and so on. So this is one of the most frightening moments in the history of this very fragile empire and fragile republic.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> I've always wondered why left wing _genuine _fascists (Castro) seem, often, to be held up as heroes?


Not often I agree with you Samuelsmiles but you're spot on here.



DoodlesRule said:


> Andy Burnhams latest comment: " There is nothing socialist about a system of open borders that allows multinationals to treat people as commodities and to move them around Europe to drive down labour costs and create a race to the bottom"


Well he's right isn't he. "Socialism" in its extreme form would have their people imprisoned behind a wall like in Berlin.

I don't agree with extreme right nor left wing. It leads to one thing- dictatorship.
History tells you of Hitler and Stalin respectively.


----------



## Happy Paws2

All I can say is with the state of my health, thankfully I wont be here to see the mess that Brexit will cause in the future.


----------



## 1290423

Oh so MC Donald's not the farmer, the burger lot are going to move their empire to the UK, did I hear right?


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> All of their campaigns are based on lies, populism & nationalism. They are a threat to democracy


@noushka: Give it a rest for God's sake. ''Populism''...the new and oh-so-trendy overused word.



noushka05 said:


> Hitler married a German


Hitler was German-speaking, was he not?


----------



## 1290423

MR farage married a German too


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Oh so MC Donald's not the farmer, the burger lot are going to move their empire to the UK, did I hear right?


Yep they are moving there non-US tax base to UK from Luxemburg.
http://news.sky.com/story/fast-food-giant-mcdonalds-to-move-non-us-tax-base-to-uk-10687989

*Fast food giant McDonald's to move non-US tax base to UK*

McDonald's is moving its non-US tax base to Britain from Luxembourg amid a battle with EU regulators.

The fast food giant is creating a new holding company through which it will route non-US royalties.

The announcement was welcomed by the Prime Minister's official spokeswoman.

McDonald's, led by Briton Steve Easterbrook, has come under fire from EU officials investigating claims that it has avoided more than €1bn (£800m) in tax through the use of a loophole in Luxembourg.

McDonald's has said that it complies with all tax rules.

It said the changes would result in the creation of a UK structure responsible for most of the royalties received from licensing to franchises outside the United States.

Profits of the new international holding company will be taxed in the UK.

Under current arrangements, McDonald's said, it paid $2.5bn (£2bn) in corporate taxes in the EU from 2011 to 2015.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Neoliberalism, neoconservatism, neofascism?


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> @noushka: Give it a rest for God's sake. ''Populism''...the new and oh-so-trendy overused word.
> 
> Hitler was German-speaking, was he not?


New, trendy word? I don't think so Overused - we hear it more now probably because right wing populism is sweeping the globe.

Perfect description of UKIP & Trump et al - IMO.










His teachers spoke of his 'publicly professed racist & neo fascist views'. He calls a white supremacist (Steve Bannon) his kinda guy. Of course hes not racist:Watching lol (& jfyi Germans aren't a race)












samuelsmiles said:


> Neoliberalism, neoconservatism, neofascism?


Blimey who ever made that mistake clearly hasn't been following these threads, have they?:Hilarious. If they had they'd be fully aware you don't give a flying **** about any of the above


----------



## Satori

Come to think of it, where's the OP nowadays? Not seen anything from @MoggyBaby since summer. Hope everything is ok?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Yep they are moving there non-US tax base to UK from Luxemburg.
> http://news.sky.com/story/fast-food-giant-mcdonalds-to-move-non-us-tax-base-to-uk-10687989


Oh look McDonalds have said they paid all their legally required taxes. That's the same as Amazon, Starbucks etc and remember how much they pay the UK. They use the system to avoid paying tax. OK, understandable, every person does probably but the average person in the street hasn't got the clout to prevent closure of loopholes. Now the question is how much backroom dealing will take place? Do you really expect to see them pay all the taxes which a normal UK business would, that despite the fact the UK currently has the lowest business tax rates of the G7 countries?


----------



## KittenKong

This is very worrying. Politicians are being named and shamed for opposing government policy.

Talk about stirring up hatred.

Good on Tories Anna Sourby, who herself has been a victim of threats and Neil Carmichael for speaking out against this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38248630


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> This is very worrying. Politicians are being named and shamed for opposing government policy.
> 
> Talk about stirring up hatred.
> 
> Good on Tories Anna Sourby, who herself has been a victim of threats and Neil Carmichael for speaking out against this.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38248630


Poor old BJ slapped for voicing his own deep thoughts.
Like why should Foreign Secretary represent government at all?

I do feel for him. That cruelty.
He should be rehomed. But might bit unstable.
So at least put him in a nice soft shelter.


----------



## KittenKong

Cries of not respecting the will of the people? Perhaps I should put it another way.

As members of an animal loving forum Spain decided to hold a referendum on the future of Bullfighting.

As with the EU referendum here they'll be those for and against automatically regardless of what they read in the press.

Others are not sure, their papers applaud the activity, boasting of a unique Spanish tradition that brings in much tourism. To vote for a ban would result in Spain losing its identity with itself and with the world.

Papers have the Spanish flag with an image of a matador and bull superimposed in the centre with the headline (in Spanish) "Believe in Spain"

The public are convinced. The pro Bullfighting lobby win the referendum with a 52-48% majority.

I'll cut this short at this point but add the MPs who opposed are accused of not respecting the "will of the people" are accused by the press and the pro Bullfighting lobby of being anti democratic and are named and shamed on social media.

Could you bring yourself to back something that goes against your principles due to is being the. "will of the people"?.........

Back to the topic: I don't know why they resorted to this seeing the government won the vote anyway. 

Yes, to balance this out there was a lot of despicable tweets and hatred shown towards non Jeremy Corbyn supporters, at least Corbyn himself spoke against this.


----------



## Goblin

Going against the will of the people. Take it that is only the 52% of those who voted in the EU referendum (not population) who are now allowed to be represented by parliament. That is democracy in action obviously according to many now. Amazing how flexible democracy is when it comes down to taking back control.


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> This is very worrying. Politicians are being named and shamed for opposing government policy.
> 
> Talk about stirring up hatred.
> 
> Good on Tories Anna Sourby, who herself has been a victim of threats and Neil Carmichael for speaking out against this.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38248630


Why do you think its being named & shamed and stirring up hatred - as far as I am aware you can always find out how your MP has voted. Don't you think their constituents have a right to know, particularly if the MPs vote is the polar opposite to the people they supposedly represent?

I could be mistaken but sure I read yesterday that Soubry abstained - if so in my book that makes her a power hungry coward


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> Why do you think its being named & shamed and stirring up hatred - as far as I am aware you can always find out how your MP has voted. Don't you think their constituents have a right to know, particularly if the MPs vote is the polar opposite to the people they supposedly represent?
> 
> I could be mistaken but sure I read yesterday that Soubry abstained - if so in my book that makes her a power hungry coward


I see where you are coming from. Indeed constituents are entitled to know the way their MP voted.

It's just the way it's done, in a negative sense with opponents being accused of not respecting the "will of the people". This can only stir up hatred in my view.

Didn't Anna Soubry receive appalling tweets on the lines of, "Can someone Jo Cox her" because she has an opinion different to another?

Why do you think she's a "Power hungry coward" for not voting? Surely she's entitled to her opinion and whether to abstain from voting or not in what's supposed to be a free country?

It's extremely worrying the way the world's becoming.


----------



## Goblin

Would have thought, with only a 78% turnout of eligible voters for the EU referendum with a vote to leave of only 55% abstaining seems a perfectly reasonable thing to do. It's well within any margin of error for representing all of her constituancy. Many MP's, especially in London should have voted against the bill only that is swept under the rug by those spouting "democracy" and "the people have decided".


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> I see where you are coming from. Indeed constituents are entitled to know the way their MP voted.
> 
> It's just the way it's done, in a negative sense with opponents being accused of not respecting the "will of the people". This can only stir up hatred in my view.
> 
> Didn't Anna Soubry receive appalling tweets on the lines of, "Can someone Jo Cox her" because she has an opinion different to another?
> 
> Why do you think she's a "Power hungry coward" for not voting? Surely she's entitled to her opinion and whether to abstain from voting or not in what's supposed to be a free country?
> 
> It's extremely worrying the way the world's becoming.


Coward for not standing by her convictions in case she subsequently loses her seat, ie power hungry as that is more important to her.

Nigel Farage has had more than his share of abuse & threats, including to his children - is appalling whoever is on the receiving end


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> Nigel Farage has had more than his share of abuse & threats, including to his children - is appalling whoever is on the receiving end


I agree.


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> I agree.


See we can agree on things


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> It's just the way it's done, in a negative sense with opponents being accused of not respecting the "will of the people". This can only stir up hatred in my view.


What like all those that vote against the loony left keep being named?

They've been doing that for years, now squealing when the tables turned. Oh what a surprise (not)


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> @noushka: Give it a rest for God's sake. ''Populism''...the new and oh-so-trendy overused word.


They reckon it's a good insult 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...sneer-uneducated-17-million-voted-Brexit.html


----------



## Satori

Calvine said:


> @noushka: Give it a rest for God's sake. ''Populism''...the new and oh-so-trendy overused word.


Truth is 'Populism' is just an unnecessary synonym for 'Democracy'. The BBC, Westminster Elites and other assorted Luvvies can't publicly admit they detest Democracy so they had to chose another name as a target for their ranting.


----------



## Satori

"Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's the battle outside raging
It'll soon shake your windows and rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changing"


----------



## rona

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/populism

"In politics, the term _populism_ can have different meanings depending on who is using it and what their political goals are. At its root, populism is a belief in the power of regular people, and in their right to have control over their government rather than a small group of political insiders or a wealthy elite. The word _populism_ comes from the Latin word for "people," _populus_."


----------



## Goblin

DoodlesRule said:


> Nigel Farage has had more than his share of abuse & threats, including to his children - is appalling whoever is on the receiving end


Would hope nobody here thinks this is acceptable either.

Then again calling someone a coward for their views is pushing along the same direction isn't it.


----------



## rona

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ief-negotiator-opt-in-passports-a7465271.html

"EU negotiators will offer British people the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens as a proposal in Brexit negotiations, the European Parliament's chief negotiator has confirmed".

"The plan would see Brits offered individual "associate citizenship", letting them keep free movement to live and work across the EU, as well as a vote in European Parliament elections."


----------



## leashedForLife

.
neo-fascist claptrap IS * NOT & never will be, "a synonym for democracy".
Skinheads, neo-Nazis, ultra-right religious zealots, uber-wealthy political heavyweights [Koch brothers, anyone?...] are utterly against individual rights, empowering citizens, & protecting the civil rights of minorities.
.
what they want is POWER, & in the case of the ordinary citizen who's not a member of their closed circles, they want POWER OVER - not "power to".
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ief-negotiator-opt-in-passports-a7465271.html
> 
> "EU negotiators will offer British people the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens as a proposal in Brexit negotiations, the European Parliament's chief negotiator has confirmed".
> 
> "The plan would see Brits offered individual "associate citizenship", letting them keep free movement to live and work across the EU, as well as a vote in European Parliament elections."


If that's the case why not just let the Leavers get on with it instead of all these court cases and the remainers living in the UK and abroad in Europe will get to keep there EU rights by opting for EU citizenship. Why kick up a stink? You are being offered a life line to stay in the EU if you are a remain voter.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Latest is a new court case against Brexit maybe launched in Ireland as the QC Barrister.

Here is what the news says:

*Second Brexit legal challenge could be tabled in Irish courts*

A second legal bid could soon be launched in a bid to derail Brexit, this time in the Irish courts.

Jolyon Maugham QC, a barrister who advised Ed Miliband on tax policy and is now campaigning for a second EU referendum, is attempting to raise £70,000 in public donations.

He aims to bring an action in the Irish High Court in which he hopes to establishwhether an Article 50 notification sent by the UK to Brussels could be overturned at a future date.

He is taking on the Irish government, the European Council and the European Commission and he is hoping UK MEPs who want the UK to remain in the EU will spearhead his legal action.

The move follows the four-day hearing in the UK Supreme Court on an appeal by the UK Government against a High Court ruling demanding more Article 50 scrutiny by Parliament.

Mr Maugham, who wants another EU referendum because he claims many people who voted Leave now regret doing so, *claims Article 50 may, in fact, already have been triggered.

He says if it has been triggered then the Commission is in breach of its treaty duties through wrongly refusing to commence negotiations with the UK.

But if not, he says the European Council and Irish government are in breach of their treaty duties in wrongly excluding the United Kingdom from European Council meetings.*

http://news.sky.com/story/second-legal-challenge-to-brexit-could-be-tabled-in-irish-courts-10689932


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ief-negotiator-opt-in-passports-a7465271.html
> 
> "EU negotiators will offer British people the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens as a proposal in Brexit negotiations, the European Parliament's chief negotiator has confirmed".
> 
> "The plan would see Brits offered individual "associate citizenship", letting them keep free movement to live and work across the EU, as well as a vote in European Parliament elections."


Excellent idea, and I shall be at the front of the queue!


----------



## CuddleMonster

I don't understand how individual membership of the EU would work, because it's a union of countries, not individuals. How could you be a citizen of a non-EU country but still be an EU citizen? It can't be like dual citizenship, because EU isn't a country.


----------



## rona

CuddleMonster said:


> I don't understand how individual membership of the EU would work, because it's a union of countries, not individuals. How could you be a citizen of a non-EU country but still be an EU citizen? It can't be like dual citizenship, because EU isn't a country.


Money...........I bet you have to pay for it.

It looks like desperation to me to keep all those workers to keep the drones happy 

Drones: Drink nectar all day
Do little around the hive
Help themselves to the stores
Don't care about the kids (workers)


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Latest is a new court case against *Brexit *maybe launched in Ireland as the QC Barrister.
> 
> Here is what the news says:
> 
> *Second Brexit legal challenge could be tabled in Irish courts*
> 
> A second legal bid could soon be launched in a bid to derail *Brexit, *this time in the Irish courts.
> 
> Jolyon Maugham QC, a barrister who advised Ed Miliband on tax policy and is now campaigning for a second EU referendum, is attempting to raise £70,000 in public donations.
> 
> He aims to bring an action in the Irish High Court in which he hopes to establishwhether an Article 50 notification sent by the UK to Brussels could be overturned at a future date.
> 
> He is taking on the Irish government, the European Council and the European Commission and he is hoping UK MEPs who want the UK to remain in the EU will spearhead his legal action.
> 
> The move follows the four-day hearing in the UK Supreme Court on an appeal by the UK Government against a High Court ruling demanding more Article 50 scrutiny by Parliament.
> 
> Mr Maugham, who wants another EU referendum because he claims many people who voted Leave now regret doing so, *claims Article 50 may, in fact, already have been triggered.
> 
> He says if it has been triggered then the Commission is in breach of its treaty duties through wrongly refusing to commence negotiations with the UK.
> 
> But if not, he says the European Council and Irish government are in breach of their treaty duties in wrongly excluding the United Kingdom from European Council meetings.*
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/second-legal-challenge-to-brexit-could-be-tabled-in-irish-courts-10689932


And on the subject of BREXIT.....



stockwellcat said:


> I am not engaging in anymore conversation on this subject.


:Facepalm

Obsessed or addicted, and are you working on recovery or a relapse.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> And on the subject of BREXIT.....
> 
> :Facepalm
> 
> Obsessed or addicted, and are you working on recovery or a relapse.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> And on the subject of BREXIT.....
> 
> :Facepalm
> 
> Obsessed or addicted, and are you working on recovery or a relapse.


This is what it's like when you have a Brexit Addiction 

















Sorry for the relapse.


----------



## stockwellcat.

CuddleMonster said:


> I don't understand how individual membership of the EU would work, because it's a union of countries, not individuals. How could you be a citizen of a non-EU country but still be an EU citizen? It can't be like dual citizenship, because EU isn't a country.


Some EU countries allow dual nationalship others will request giving up your UK citizenship before you become a citizen of there country like Spain as they don't recognise dual nationality. One would assume you would have to apply to a country in Europe allowing you to have citizenship there because as you said the EU isn't a country. The UK allows dual nationalship but that might change.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ief-negotiator-opt-in-passports-a7465271.html
> 
> "EU negotiators will offer British people the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens as a proposal in Brexit negotiations, the European Parliament's chief negotiator has confirmed".
> 
> "The plan would see Brits offered individual "associate citizenship", letting them keep free movement to live and work across the EU, as well as a vote in European Parliament elections."


I heard about this. Nice to know they're thinking of the 48%, not forgetting younger people who were not allowed a vote.

I'm not building my hopes up too much at this stage.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> This is what it's like when you have a Brexit Addiction
> 
> BREXIT. BREXIT. BREXIT. BREXIT. BREXIT. BREXIT. BREXIT. BREXIT. BREXIT. BREXIT.
> Sorry for the relapse.


*Say BREXIT again. I dare ya, I double dare ya!*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> *Say BREXIT again. I dare ya, I double dare ya!*












I am having cereal for breakfast this morning. Do you want to know what cereal?

Well I do like Weetabix.








Made from non-EU wheat 

Well you did double dare me 

I am logging out for the day so don't worry.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 293090
> 
> 
> I am having cereal for breakfast this morning. Do you want to know what cereal?
> 
> Well I do like Wheatabix.
> View attachment 293091
> 
> Made from non-EU wheat
> 
> Well you did double dare me


I had quite a traditional breakfast this morning.

Porridge Oats. (Not grown in Britain) Activia Yoghurt (Not manufactured in Britain) Toast (Bread not baked in Britain)

Tea. (Not grown or produced in Britain) but bought from Marks&Spencer's in Helsinki.

Marks&Spencer, incidentally, was first founded in 1884 by Michael Marks and Thomas Spencer in Leeds.
The company also began selling branded goods such as Kellogs Cornflakes in 2008 even though Cornflakes had been gracing breakfast tables the world over since 1894 after the cereal was created by Dr John Harvey Kellog. Kellogs Cornflakes were patented in two years later in 1896.
Dr Harvey introduced his breakfast cereal to the patients in Battlecreek Sanitarium in the hopes that the health benefits of his cereal would reduce the incidences of masturbation.
I knew there had to be a perfectly good reason why I didn't like them:Smug
In 1928 Kellog went on to produce Rice Krispies, the holy trinity of Breakfast cereals, Snap, Crackle and Pop.:Singing


----------



## Arnie83

CuddleMonster said:


> I don't understand how individual membership of the EU would work, because it's a union of countries, not individuals. How could you be a citizen of a non-EU country but still be an EU citizen? It can't be like dual citizenship, because EU isn't a country.


What's difficult about it? We are currently 'citizens' of Europe, and our membership card is the EU passport.

Those of us who want to remain 'citizens' of Europe will presumably get / pay for an actual membership card or a British passport, but with a little EU flag printed in the corner. (How it is administered will depend on the negotiations.)

We will be able to move freely around the EU as now, and work and live there as now.

Those who want no part of it can queue up and fill in forms like other non-EU citizens if they feel the need to leave the UK for any reason.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
sorry -
I, too, fail to grasp how any Uk cit can retain UK-nationALITY [not "-ship"] & yet keep EU-privileges.
.
if the UK completes its EU-departure, it's no longer a member-country.
at that point, UK-cits have no representation in Brussels; they lose their privileges b/c privileges are "member-only" benefits.
.
Becoming a citizen of another EU-nation generally requires *living there* as a resident - moving house, changing jobs, buying or renting a home in the new country.
That's a lot of upheaval for an EU-passport.
.
since the UK permits dual citizenship, U needn't relinquish UK-cit status, but the Other Country may not look kindly on keeping one foot in either country as a back-up plan.
.
.
.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> What's difficult about it? We are currently 'citizens' of Europe, and our membership card is the EU passport.
> 
> *Those of us who want to remain 'citizens' of Europe will presumably get / pay for an actual membership card or a British passport, but with a little EU flag printed in the corner. (How it is administered will depend on the negotiations.)
> 
> We will be able to move freely around the EU as now, and work and live there as now.*
> 
> Those who want no part of it can queue up and fill in forms like other non-EU citizens if they feel the need to leave the UK for any reason.


Once we are out we are out, we can't have one foot in each side the EU will not allow that.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> Once we are out we are out, we can't have one foot in each side the EU will not allow that.


I'm not building my hopes up but even speaking of this gives some hope however slim it is.

I wouldn't blame the EU or other countries within the block to not allow concessions like this once Brexit is complete.

It would be unfair to categorise all UK citizens as leave supporters however, just as it's wrong to suggest every American voted for Donald Trump.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> Once we are out we are out, we can't have one foot in each side the EU will not allow that.


You'd better tell the EU negotiator, since he's the one who's proposing it.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> You'd better tell the EU negotiator, since he's the one who's proposing it.


And trying to rush it through


----------



## cheekyscrip

They seem to begin?
By the time it actually happens most would not actually want it...
At least some guts to admit they were taken for a ride..


----------



## rona

The population of Sunderland 177,739

How many voted in the poll 3000

You don't think it might have been mainly disgruntled in voters?

Why would those that voted out even bother?


----------



## leashedForLife

.
just as all UK-cits have to cope with the afterFX & consequences of the national referendum & the majority-vote *for* departure from the E.U.,
so all US-cits must deal with the frightening reality of a headstrong, ignorant, wealthy bully soon to enter the Oval Office -
the least-experienced, yet most-opinionated POTUS elect.
.
A man who takes *ONE!* security-briefing per WEEK, when the norm is daily - 7 days / wk, 7 briefings.
He seems to think he "knows better" simply by reading Twitter-posts & Facebook scrolling newsfeeds, vs listening to or reading vetted data from known, reliable sources; he'd rather read Breitbart. 
.
.
we did not all VOTE for Trump; a clear majority voted for Ms Clinton, but due to the asinine anachronism of the Electoral College, the Trumpling was awarded more state electors.
.
ergo, we may despise, distrust, dislike, or disdain Trumpster, but unless & until we can leave the U.S.A., we have to hope we --- U-S citizens, our nation, the millions of plants & animals of thousands of species who share our country, & the larger planet, with all its teeming life, human & non-human --
survive Trumpling's 4-year stint reasonably intact, & at least capable of recovering from the damage, & restoring what is possible to save.
.
this is the man who vowed to un-do Obama's legacy parks, wilderness designations, environmental protections, & decades of progressive legislation, clear back to the Dust Bowl, the 1929 collapse of Wall st & subsequent near-decade of recession, minimum commodity-pricing to protect farmers from market swings that can force them to sell crops for less than production costs, & Social Security.
This spoiled-brat who claims to be a billionaire intends to **PRIVATIZE** the Social Security system, which would be devastating.
.
.
notice that Trumpster isn't giving-up his own health insurance [which he can well-afford] but only wants to take away medical insurance from those who cannot afford to pay for a policy; the very ppl who cannot afford to get sick, get hurt, or lose time by claiming un-paid sick days... that would include me, among millions of others.
.
He promised he'd "make jobs" but doesn't seem to comprehend the need for an educated working class; without a bare minimum of a high-school diploma, & preferably either an associate degree or instruction in a skill, NO * ONE in the U-S can now expect to make a survival-level living.
Yet he wants to reduce funding for education at all levels; pre-school [which is critical for future success], elementary, high school, trade schools, colleges & univrsities.
.
.
state & Federal parks & designated wilderness sprouting oil wells, fracking well heads, gold mines, uranium mines, coal mines, clearcut timber acreage... what a postcard-view for our grandchildren those will make.

.
.
it's like watching a living storm of locusts coming toward us, knowing there's nothing we can do to stop them, & waiting to see just how bad the devastation is, before knowing if U can re-plant & hope for a harvest.
.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

leashedForLife said:


> .
> just as all UK-cits have to cope with the afterFX & consequences of the national referendum & the majority-vote *for* departure from the E.U.,
> so all US-cits must deal with the frightening reality of a headstrong, ignorant, wealthy bully soon to enter the Oval Office -
> the least-experienced, yet most-opinionated POTUS elect.
> .
> A man who takes *ONE!* security-briefing per WEEK, when the norm is daily - 7 days / wk, 7 briefings.
> He seems to think he "knows better" simply by reading Twitter-posts & Facebook scrolling newsfeeds, vs listening to or reading vetted data from known, reliable sources; he'd rather read Breitbart.
> .
> .
> we did not all VOTE for Trump; a clear majority voted for Ms Clinton, but due to the asinine anachronism of the Electoral College, the Trumpling was awarded more state electors.
> .
> ergo, we may despise, distrust, dislike, or disdain Trumpster, but unless & until we can leave the U.S.A., we have to hope we --- U-S citizens, our nation, the millions of plants & animals of thousands of species who share our country, & the larger planet, with all its teeming life, human & non-human --
> survive Trumpling's 4-year stint reasonably intact, & at least capable of recovering from the damage, & restoring what is possible to save.
> .
> this is the man who vowed to un-do Obama's legacy parks, wilderness designations, environmental protections, & decades of progressive legislation, clear back to the Dust Bowl, the 1929 collapse of Wall st & subsequent near-decade of recession, minimum commodity-pricing to protect farmers from market swings that can force them to sell crops for less than production costs, & Social Security.
> This spoiled-brat who claims to be a billionaire intends to **PRIVATIZE** the Social Security system, which would be devastating.
> .
> .
> notice that Trumpster isn't giving-up his own health insurance [which he can well-afford] but only wants to take away medical insurance from those who cannot afford to pay for a policy; the very ppl who cannot afford to get sick, get hurt, or lose time by claiming un-paid sick days... that would include me, among millions of others.
> .
> He promised he'd "make jobs" but doesn't seem to comprehend the need for an educated working class; without a bare minimum of a high-school diploma, & preferably either an associate degree or instruction in a skill, NO * ONE in the U-S can now expect to make a survival-level living.
> Yet he wants to reduce funding for education at all levels; pre-school [which is critical for future success], elementary, high school, trade schools, colleges & univrsities.
> .
> .
> state & Federal parks & designated wilderness sprouting oil wells, fracking well heads, gold mines, uranium mines, coal mines, clearcut timber acreage... what a postcard-view for our grandchildren those will make.
> 
> .
> .
> it's like watching a living storm of locusts coming toward us, knowing there's nothing we can do to stop them, & waiting to see just how bad the devastation is, before knowing if U can re-plant & hope for a harvest.
> .
> .
> .


At least after four years you can get your country back!


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> At least after four years you can get your country back!


I'm hoping that within that time scale we will too, but it may take a little longer


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I'm hoping that within that time scale we will too, but it may take a little longer


Much longer.
At the moment Rupert Murdoch is taking your country back.
Just buying Sky.

At the moment I think it will be sold piece by piece to foreign but non EU powers.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Much longer.
> At the moment Rupert Murdoch is taking your country back.
> Just buying Sky.


Well if these people will keep quoting papers lies, what do you expect


----------



## Satori

leashedForLife said:


> .
> just as all UK-cits have to cope with the afterFX & consequences of the national referendum & the majority-vote *for* departure from the E.U.,
> so all US-cits must deal with the frightening reality of a headstrong, ignorant, wealthy bully soon to enter the Oval Office -
> the least-experienced, yet most-opinionated POTUS elect.
> .
> A man who takes *ONE!* security-briefing per WEEK, when the norm is daily - 7 days / wk, 7 briefings.
> He seems to think he "knows better" simply by reading Twitter-posts & Facebook scrolling newsfeeds, vs listening to or reading vetted data from known, reliable sources; he'd rather read Breitbart.
> .
> .
> we did not all VOTE for Trump; a clear majority voted for Ms Clinton, but due to the asinine anachronism of the Electoral College, the Trumpling was awarded more state electors.
> .
> ergo, we may despise, distrust, dislike, or disdain Trumpster, but unless & until we can leave the U.S.A., we have to hope we --- U-S citizens, our nation, the millions of plants & animals of thousands of species who share our country, & the larger planet, with all its teeming life, human & non-human --
> survive Trumpling's 4-year stint reasonably intact, & at least capable of recovering from the damage, & restoring what is possible to save.
> .
> this is the man who vowed to un-do Obama's legacy parks, wilderness designations, environmental protections, & decades of progressive legislation, clear back to the Dust Bowl, the 1929 collapse of Wall st & subsequent near-decade of recession, minimum commodity-pricing to protect farmers from market swings that can force them to sell crops for less than production costs, & Social Security.
> This spoiled-brat who claims to be a billionaire intends to **PRIVATIZE** the Social Security system, which would be devastating.
> .
> .
> notice that Trumpster isn't giving-up his own health insurance [which he can well-afford] but only wants to take away medical insurance from those who cannot afford to pay for a policy; the very ppl who cannot afford to get sick, get hurt, or lose time by claiming un-paid sick days... that would include me, among millions of others.
> .
> He promised he'd "make jobs" but doesn't seem to comprehend the need for an educated working class; without a bare minimum of a high-school diploma, & preferably either an associate degree or instruction in a skill, NO * ONE in the U-S can now expect to make a survival-level living.
> Yet he wants to reduce funding for education at all levels; pre-school [which is critical for future success], elementary, high school, trade schools, colleges & univrsities.
> .
> .
> state & Federal parks & designated wilderness sprouting oil wells, fracking well heads, gold mines, uranium mines, coal mines, clearcut timber acreage... what a postcard-view for our grandchildren those will make.
> 
> .
> .
> it's like watching a living storm of locusts coming toward us, knowing there's nothing we can do to stop them, & waiting to see just how bad the devastation is, before knowing if U can re-plant & hope for a harvest.
> .
> .
> .


That's democracy for y'all.

People have died for it.

You seem keen constantly to disparage it.

Shame on you.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
after it's been stripped of forests, minerals, & fossil fuels, with no regard for preventing erosion, pollution, streams & groundwater contaminated, air quality seriously compromised, asthma cases & attacks increasing, cancers on the rise, uranium mines re-opened on & off tribal lands, radioactive dust pluming downwind, the salmon runs dwindling as hydroelectric dams cut off headwaters from spawning fish, amphibians virtually wiped-out by chemical & pharmacologic pollution of waterways, ponds, & lakes...
the Q will be, will we even want it, let alone 'want it back'?...
.
.
.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Much longer.
> At the moment Rupert Murdoch is taking your country back.
> Just buying Sky.


 I thought he already owned it or most of it ? Didnt he create it in the first place.

he owns some newspapers here , he bought them a long while back .


----------



## noushka05

Wolves will be first to go. The republicans have been desperate to wipe them out. The Endangered species act will be torn up. This is an all round catastrophe for the natural world.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> I thought he already owned it or most of it ? Didnt he create it in the first place.
> 
> he owns some newspapers here , he bought them a long while back .


He owned 39% I think. But affair of Mille Downer mobile hacking put stop to getting the majority.

Hideous man.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> That's democracy for y'all.
> 
> People have died for it.
> 
> You seem keen constantly to disparage it.
> 
> Shame on you.


I'd say democracy is over in the US, this government has the makings of a corporate oligarchy.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> I'd say democracy is over in the US, this government has the makings of a corporate oligarchy.


Satori is being sarky. Again!!! Nowt sacred.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Satori is being sarky. Again!!! Nowt sacred.


I know lol. Satori does make me giggle a lot though, much as I hate to admit it  lol


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> And trying to rush it through


One person's 'rush through' is another's 'expedite'.

Personally I would like a seamless transition from EU citizen to associate EU citizen without having to wait for a Treaty change that would likely take years.


----------



## Satori

@cheekyscrip

Can you get iplayer? Fabian Picardo is on Andrew Marr show this morning.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> One person's 'rush through' is another's 'expedite'.
> 
> Personally I would like a seamless transition from EU citizen to associate EU citizen without having to wait for a Treaty change that would likely take years.


Well yes I'm sure you would, I just wonder why the EU are in such a rush though? What dastardly dead have they up their sleeve


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> @cheekyscrip
> 
> Can you get iplayer? Fabian Picardo is on Andrew Marr show this morning.


Never bothered but will try our fb here! Thanks.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Unless you wanted crippling cuts, devaluation, inflation, division and chaos then if you voted for Leave you made a mistake.
Still time to admit it.

No, soft Brexit with paying for EU and having no say in EU, is not better than being EU member.

It is better than nothing at all. As hard Brexit.
But still worse than we have.


When Leave voters will understand that EU are not our enemy?

That Russia is the danger for Europe.
And no friend of Britain or US.

Why EU argues with us...they gave leg up to Trump ...surely his business will blossom!
And Brexit gave leg up to Trump.
Thank you Farage.

Polish nannies are no threat. Russian submarines are.
Europe is safer together.
Why cannot you see it?


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> if you voted for Leave you made a mistake.
> Still time to admit it.


I did not make a mistake, just because you think I did doesn't make it so


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I did not make a mistake, just because you think I did doesn't make it so











Maybe facts are more convincing?
World changed and clocks cannot go back.
And would you really want the Iron Curtain fall back and deprive so many nations of basic freedom and basic human rights?


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 293261
> 
> Maybe facts are more convincing?
> World changed and clocks cannot go back.
> And* would you really want the Iron Curtain fall back and deprive so many nations of basic freedom and basic human rights?*


And Royal families:Jawdrop

Oh.....go on then


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 293261
> 
> Maybe facts are more convincing?
> World changed and clocks cannot go back.


They didn't do almost the self same thing in 2000 and many other years when we were fully ensconced within the EU?

Though I think it was reduced by 5 million barrels then


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> They didn't do almost the self same thing in 2000 and many other years when we were fully ensconced within the EU?
> 
> Though I think it was reduced by 5 million barrels then


Much easier now...Britain in turmoil. US in turmoil. EU trembling...
Now that we need to really unite..
We gave Syria to Assad and Putin.
Our Foreign Secretary proposed shouting at Russian embassy as a solution.

Do we look.like proper jerks on international stage?


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> We gave Syria to Assad and Putin


Surely it wasn't ours to give?

I didn't notice Europe doing anything to get those poor people out of Aleppo


----------



## MiffyMoo

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 293261
> 
> Maybe facts are more convincing?
> World changed and clocks cannot go back.
> And would you really want the Iron Curtain fall back and deprive so many nations of basic freedom and basic human rights?


You do know that you can't just pick any bad news story, point at it and screech "Brexit!"? They are simply cutting production to get the price back up


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> then if you voted for Leave you made a mistake.
> Still time to admit it.


No, I didn't make a mistake either so.please accept that we are all entitled to our own opinion.



cheekyscrip said:


> When Leave voters will understand that EU are not our enemy?


When will remain voters understand that we won and you lost, so stop moaning ( it's all getting rather boring now) and just lets get on with it.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I did not make a mistake, just because you think I did doesn't make it so


You're absolutely entitled to believe that in much the same I believe and know I voted the right way despite one or two people trying to convince me otherwise at the time!


----------



## samuelsmiles




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You're absolutely entitled to believe that in much the same I believe and know I voted the right way despite one or two people trying to convince me otherwise at the time!


And that's where the problem is.

You believe you voted the right way (remain) and we the leave voters must be completely wrong and aren't allowed an opinion.

It is boring me this tiraid of finger pointing at us and the constant everything going on in the news must be blamed for Brexit. Well just a very important point I would like to make here is that Brexit hasn't happened yet, we aren't even at the negotiationing table regarding Brexit, we only have had a Referendum and the results where to leave the EU. So how can Brexit be to blamed for every negative piece of news on TV or in the newspapers as we haven't left the EU yet?

I am trying my best to ignore these threads but they are always in the top 5 threads on the forum when I am on here.

What is going on in Syria is terrible. The same thing happened during the second world war in Europe, until Assad is kicked out of power by his own people then this will carry on. Russia is one of his allies along with Iran who are also involved in this war, it is a very difficult situation for the Western World getting involved to try and stop this war. On top of this ISIS are trying to get a foot hold back in Syria. I feel sorry for the civilians on the ground caught up in this but this is a war. Assad, Putin and Trump have nothing to do with what is going on with our countries Brexit Referendum vote and that is all it is at this stage a Referendum result.

I will try my best not making any further responses to the subject of Brexit as I know I am not allowed an opinion or to comment.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> When will remain voters understand that we won and you lost, so stop moaning ( it's all getting rather boring now) and just lets get on with it.


It's that kind of attitude that only serves to cause more resentment and anger.

The leave vote won with a small majority. You don't think roughly half the UK population will be silenced on the matter?

I'm sure many Americans who didn't vote for Trump will be hearing similar.

How we sympathise.


----------



## cheekyscrip

If you think that nation were fed blatant lies...that the only winners would be foreign corporations with fairly dirty money why should you just accept it?

I am being dragged into it and it looks really catastrophic.

It is not just lost election.
When you have to accept the results and have another chance.

I am afraid no one so far could show me from Brexit side how things will get better.
Nothing promises that crucial industry would be back in British hands.
Or that our social service would get better.
Or our taxes lower.
All news is more taxes, less money for health care and education, great damage to universities, great financial loses, weak pound, inflation, danger to all green issues .

Why should ignore all that ?
It is based on facts.
Plus loss of freedom of movement and rights to work in other EU countries, receive health care there and education.
Important for my children. Even the right to travel with my dog and cat if needed to be operated in Spain.

I think more and more people do not want Brexit.
More and more see it for what it is.

Why should they keep quiet and be led like sheep into slaughter?


If you won then were are all the promises? The trade deals?
Gove forgot to tell you there would be none until after Brexit?

They forgot to tell you they never actually thought about it?
No plan. Just jump into limbo?

Then it will all go bust and vultures take their pick.


Why should I accept it when my children would have their future totally messed up because you do not want to accept simple truth:

Brexit is bad for Britain. For Europe.
For the stability of the world.
For environment too.



Is there Anything At All that actually shows otherwise?


----------



## noushka05

BREAKING NEWS. New Brexit challenge to go ahead after crowd funding campaign raises £70,000 in 48 hours. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...igh-court-article-50-jo-maugham-a7468081.html

Nice work


----------



## leashedForLife

.
as an aside:
it wasn't "almost half" who voted for Ms Clinton, it was OVER 1/2 -- so in that detail, Trumpster's so-called victory clearly differs from the Brexit referendum.
at least in the UK, a majority of those voting, albeit a narrow one, voted -for- Brexit.
[Had more voters turned out, results might B different - but there's no retake for this test.]
.
in the U.S., Trumpster LOST the popular vote.
our Prez-elect is *not** the popular or even narrow-majority winner.
He was foisted on us by the Electoral College & its arcane workings.
.
obv, he's not "the winner" - he's a placeholder installed by outdated political machinery, that enables a bare 17% of the entire U-S popn to dictate POTUS to the other 83%.
That's hardly "democratic". *snorts*
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

leashedForLife said:


> .
> as an aside:
> it wasn't "almost half" who voted for Ms Clinton, it was OVER 1/2 -- so in that detail, Trumpster's so-called victory clearly differs from the Brexit referendum.
> at least in the UK, a majority of those voting, albeit a narrow one, voted -for- Brexit.
> [Had more voters turned out, results might B different - but there's no retake for this test.]
> .
> in the U.S., Trumpster LOST the popular vote.
> our Prez-elect is *not** the popular or even narrow-majority winner.
> He was foisted on us by the Electoral College & its arcane workings.
> .
> obv, he's not "the winner" - he's a placeholder installed by outdated political machinery, that enables a bare 17% of the entire U-S popn to dictate POTUS to the other 83%.
> That's hardly "democratic". *snorts*
> .
> .
> .


Absolutely agree with you but I can hear the Trump supporters saying, "We won, you lost. Get over it".....


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

stockwellcat said:


> I will try my best not making any further responses to the subject of Brexit as I know I am not allowed an opinion or to comment.


Why are you now allowed an opinion or to comment? Everyone is allowed an opinion and to comment, whether you choose to or not is an entirely different matter. I've pretty much chosen not to because I'm bored to tears with the same argument with the same people but that is entirely different to not being allowed to  If you have something to say then say it but equally don't expect the other side to agree with you any more than you agree with them.


----------



## Guest

leashedForLife said:


> as an aside:
> it wasn't "almost half" who voted for Ms Clinton, it was OVER 1/2 -- so in that detail, Trumpster's so-called victory clearly differs from the Brexit referendum.
> at least in the UK, a majority of those voting, albeit a narrow one, voted -for- Brexit.


This. 
That's an important distinction to me. Clinton won the popular vote by over 2 million votes. Trump won the electoral college, he was not the choice of a majority of American voters.



KittenKong said:


> Absolutely agree with you but I can hear the Trump supporters saying, "We won, you lost. Get over it".....


Yup. They do. And no matter who is saying that, it's not a very engaging argument is it? I don't mind disagreement, in fact disagreement is the cornerstone of living in a democracy. However it has to be constructive. And having "lost" (or won for that matter) does not mean you lose your right to voice your opinion and fight for what matters to you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> BREAKING NEWS. New Brexit challenge to go ahead after crowd funding campaign raises £70,000 in 48 hours. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...igh-court-article-50-jo-maugham-a7468081.html
> 
> Nice work


Yes that's the high court in Ireland not the UK high court. The last challenge that went to the high court in Ireland last month was dismissed by the high court judges in Ireland because they said it was a case for the UK high court. Good luck but I can just see it being dismissed as it is not the UK high court. The UK high court is the court in charge of the Brexit court cases and over rules the devolved states court system on this issue (Brexit). But good luck though.

Remember the UK is leaving the EU not Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England and Gibraltar. England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar are not listed as separate EU members they are listed as the UK and this is why the UK High Court in London is in charge of the Brexit cases.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
yeah, well -
in this world, U can buy or brute-force a lotta stuff, but ya don't get to choose the facts.
.
sadly, 1 fact is that the E-C put Donnie in the White House.
.
but #2 fact is that Hilary won - & Trumpster is the also-ran who was given her office.
.
.
.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Yes that's the high court in Ireland not the UK high court. The last challenge that went to the high court in Ireland last month was dismissed by the high court judges in Ireland because they said it was a case for the UK high court. Good luck but I can just see it being dismissed as it is not the UK high court. The UK high court is the court in charge of the Brexit court cases and over rules the devolved states court system on this issue (Brexit). But good luck though.


They're arguing that the EU has got Article 50 wrong, so it's a matter for the European court rather than the UK one. I'm not sure their argument stands up but if it does, and A50 becomes revocable, then it increases the chance that Brexit won't happen after all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> They're arguing that the EU has got Article 50 wrong, so it's a matter for the European court rather than the UK one. I'm not sure their argument stands up but if it does, and A50 becomes revocable, then it increases the chance that Brexit won't happen after all.


He's also arguing saying that Article 50 has already been triggered and this is the reason why the UK MEPs aren't allowed to attend any meetings at the European Council. If this is the case the EU is in breach of its own treaties either way for excluding the UK from European Council meetings and not being allowed to negotiate with any of the EU member states.

The court case by the way has to go through the UK Supreme Court in London to be referred to the ECJ. So it won't go anywhere through the Irish High Court unless they refer it to the UK High Court who then send it to the Supreme Court only to be challenged and if they can't rule on it, the case then gets referred to the ECJ. That's a three court challenge to reach the ECJ, the ECJ won't be cheap either. I hope they have the money to see this through as £70,000 isn't going to be enough.

Looking at what the newspapers are reporting it is an issue of law (Point of law) like Gina Miller's court case is at the moment.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> He's also arguing saying that Article 50 has already been triggered and this is the reason why the UK MEPs aren't allowed to attend any meetings at the European Council. If this is the case the EU is in breach of its own treaties either way for excluding the UK from European Council meetings and not being allowed to negotiate with any of the EU member states.
> 
> The court case by the way has to go through the UK Supreme Court in London to be referred to the ECJ. So it won't go anywhere through the Irish High Court unless they refer it to the UK High Court who then send it to the Supreme Court only to be challenged and if they can't rule on it, the case then gets referred to the ECJ. That's a three court challenge to reach the ECJ, the ECJ won't be cheap either. *I hope they have the money to see this through as £70,000 isn't going to be enough*.
> 
> Looking at what the newspapers are reporting it is an issue of law (Point of law).


The £70,000 was raised in just 48 hours, I'm sure there'll be no problem raising whatever it takes. I for one would chip in


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The £70,000 was raised in just 48 hours, I'm sure there'll be no problem raising whatever it takes. I for one would chip in


I am not arguing with you or being sarcastic. Good luck but personally I can't see it getting through the High Court in Ireland as they dismissed the last case, last month saying it was for the UK High Court to rule on and there was a case in process in the UK High Court.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> I think more and more people do not want Brexit.
> More and more see it for what it is.
> 
> Why should they keep quiet and be led like sheep into slaughter?


I have seen no evidence of this, the demonstrations are rather small.



cheekyscrip said:


> If you won then were are all the promises? The trade deals?


We can't get trade deals yet with the EU holding and our arms behind our backs



cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit is bad for Britain.


We *ALL *knew it would be for a while, it's the long term that should help your children. Short term I've buggered my pension and old age, that's how sure I am it's the right thing and I haven't even got children to worry about



cheekyscrip said:


> Is there Anything At All that actually shows otherwise?


Is there anything that shows the EU would have changed if this hadn't happened?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> I am not arguing with you or being sarcastic. Good luck but personally I can't see it getting through the High Court in Ireland as they dismissed the last case, last month saying it was for the UK High Court to rule on.


Jolyon is a fantastic QC, I'm sure he wouldn't go ahead if he didn't believe there was a good chance of getting a positive result. Can you imagine how stressed Theresa must be??

I'll just leave this with you @stockwellcat :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Jolyon is a fantastic QC, I'm sure he wouldn't go ahead if he didn't believe there was a good chance of getting a positive result. Can you imagine how stressed Theresa must be??
> 
> I'll just leave this with you @stockwellcat :Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 293309


But that's the point there isn't a hard and soft Brexit the EU have told us we can't cherry pick it's a case of leave or stay and the UK as a whole voted leave. Leave means leave not have one foot in the door and one foot out to keep the losing side happy.

When you leave a cinema you don't keep one foot in the door on the way out hoping film was going to be better do you?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Jolyon is a fantastic QC, I'm sure he wouldn't go ahead if he didn't believe there was a good chance of getting a positive result. Can you imagine how stressed Theresa must be??
> 
> I'll just leave this with you @stockwellcat :Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 293309


I doubt very much TM is stressed it will be her under dogs and solicitors that are stressed. TM will be on Top form on Wednesday at PMQs I doubt very much Corbyn will be after that speech he couldnt deliver yesterday due to the protest going on in front of the podium. After all TM has the backing of Parliament for Article 50 so she will be quite happy. It's just finding a way to trigger it by the deadline date without all these silly court cases being made and I don't think she is scared of having a commons vote either now after last week's overwhelming motion in her favour. If she has the commons vote it will more than likely quash Gina Miller's case as that was is what she wanted to happen (Parliament have a vote), so come on TM give the MPs a vote as they are behind you on Article 50 and pass the bill through Parliament before the verdict in January 2017.

Parliament get to ratify the final deal with the EU as well in 2019 so what's the problem?

Back to you @noushka05


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> It's that kind of attitude that only serves to cause more resentment and anger.
> 
> The leave vote won with a small majority. You don't think roughly half the UK population will be silenced on the matter?
> 
> I'm sure many Americans who didn't vote for Trump will be hearing similar.
> 
> How we sympathise.


It doesn't really matter by what majority we won by, we won and that's that.
I can't speak for everyone but if the remainers had won,I certainally wouldn't be moaning , I would just get on with it and accept it.



cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit is bad for Britain. For Europe.
> For the stability of the world.
> For environment too.[/QUOTE
> 
> How can you know that, until it happens. No one knows what it will be like, although I suspect it may be tough for a start. But we just have to wait and see.
> 
> 
> 
> cheekyscrip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there Anything At All that actually shows otherwise?
> 
> 
> 
> Were is the evidence to show that the E U will change for the better.
Click to expand...


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> It's that kind of attitude that only serves to cause more resentment and anger.
> 
> The leave vote won with a small majority. You don't think roughly half the UK population will be silenced on the matter?
> 
> I'm sure many Americans who didn't vote for Trump will be hearing similar.
> 
> How we sympathise.


It doesn't really matter by what majority we won by, we won and that's that.
I can't speak for everyone but if the remainers had won,I certainally wouldn't be moaning , I would just get on with it and accept it.



cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit is bad for Britain. For Europe.
> For the stability of the world.
> For environment too.


How can you know that, until it happens. No one knows what it will be like, although I suspect it may be tough for a start. But we just have to wait and see.


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Is there Anything At All that actually shows otherwise?


Were is the evidence that the E U will change for the better.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> But that's the point there isn't a hard and soft Brexit the EU have told us we can't cherry pick it's a case of leave or stay and the UK as a whole voted leave. Leave means leave not have one foot in the door and one foot out to keep the losing side happy.
> 
> When you leave a cinema you don't keep one foot in the door on the way out hoping film was going to be better do you?


Wouldn't retained membership of the EEA be a soft Brexit?


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Were is the evidence that the E U will change for the better.


I thought the changes in the Lisbon Treaty to increase the Commission's democratic legitimacy were for the better. Didn't you?


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> I thought the changes in the Lisbon Treaty to increase the Commission's democratic legitimacy were for the better. Didn't you?


Well it's had rather a long time to show any improvement and doesn't seemed to have shown any, apart that we could leave


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> But that's the point there isn't a hard and soft Brexit the EU have told us we can't cherry pick it's a case of leave or stay and the UK as a whole voted leave. Leave means leave not have one foot in the door and one foot out to keep the losing side happy.
> 
> When you leave a cinema you don't keep one foot in the door on the way out hoping film was going to be better do you?


No I don't keep one foot in the door. I don't throw myself off the balcony either












stockwellcat said:


> I doubt very much TM is stressed it will be her under dogs and solicitors that are stressed. TM will be on Top form on Wednesday at PMQs I doubt very much Corbyn will be after that speech he couldnt deliver yesterday due to the protest going on in front of the podium. After all TM has the backing of Parliament for Article 50 so she will be quite happy. It's just finding a way to trigger it by the deadline date without all these silly court cases being made and I don't think she is scared of having a commons vote either now after last week's overwhelming motion in her favour. If she has the commons vote it will more than likely quash Gina Miller's case as that was is what she wanted to happen (Parliament have a vote), so come on TM give the MPs a vote as they are behind you on Article 50 and pass the bill through Parliament before the verdict in January 2017.
> 
> Parliament get to ratify the final deal with the EU as well in 2019 so what's the problem?
> 
> Back to you @noushka05


Prime Ministers Questions? I don't think she's answered one yet lol Maybe this week


----------



## Guest

Honeys mum said:


> I can't speak for everyone but if the remainers had won,I certainally wouldn't be moaning , I would just get on with it and accept it.


So the things that mattered to you that caused you to vote the way you voted would cease to matter to you after the vote?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No I don't keep one foot in the door. I don't throw myself off the balcony either
> 
> View attachment 293328
> 
> 
> Prime Ministers Questions? I don't think she's answered one yet lol Maybe this week


She has. Brexit means Brexit and we'll make a success of it. The overwhelming majority of MPs seem to agree with her otherwise they would have voted against the motion last week to Theresa May's plan to trigger article 50 by 31st March 2017.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Were is the evidence that the E U will change for the better.


 For once I also would like to see EU facing the music. It got far too petty and detailed.
Time to get rid of Juncker and his people.
Cut down bureaucracy. Demand MEPs to actually work for what they are paid and not like Farage just not appear except for hurling unfunded insults.

So much for " never done a day's work" Mr Farage?

Yes Rona. Truly EU was annoying, Germany and France trying to rule the roost.

Yet it by making ourselves poorer so they get it too is a step too far.

I perfectly understand the position of lining pockets of corrupted Spanish/ Italian and so on officials who then take it to Caymans...and it is from our taxes.

Wish!!! Merkel has lots to answer for.
If you invite people to your country and then demand that others took them in?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> She has. Brexit means Brexit and we'll make a success of it. The overwhelming majority of MPs seem to agree with her otherwise they would have voted against the motion last week to Theresa May's plan to trigger article 50 by 31st March 2017.


Brexit means bull**** lol How can she make a success of it, when she has absolutely nothing to negotiate with at all?

This is so funny, I have to share it:Hilarious










.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Brexit means bull**** lol How can she make a success of it, when she has absolutely nothing to negotiate with at all?
> 
> This is so funny, I have to share it:Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 293332
> 
> 
> .


She has got something to trade with. Doh. Her high heels and shoes. 

She isnt negotiating trade offs she's negotiationing our exit terms. Right I have had enough of this as you guys are going around in circles.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> She has got something to trade with. Doh. Her high heels and shoes.
> 
> She isnt negotiating trade offs she's negotiationing our exit terms. Right I have had enough of this as you guys are going around in circles.


Don't forget her £995 leather trousers lol

Oh I thought she was getting us a 'special' deal


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> It doesn't really matter by what majority we won by, we won and that's that.
> I can't speak for everyone but if the remainers had won,I certainally wouldn't be moaning , I would just get on with it and accept it.


Margaret Thatcher called her opponents "Moaning Minnies" and told them to stop it.

They didn't and 48% of voters including those not eligible to vote won't stop being "Moaning Minnies" either.


----------



## 1290423

Just to confirm like,
I was out yesterday
I'm out today
And you can bet on it I'll be out tomorrow


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here's a message for all you remainers, us leave supporters are going to do this:








It's exactly what you have been doing to us for the last 4 decades. Remember there was no Referendum to join the EU, the UK was transitioned into the EU from the EEC.

The ascension treaty (also known as the European Communities Act 1972) that was signed by the UK on the 22nd January 1972 and affective from 1st January 1973 only ascended the UK into the EEC not the EU (Treaty between the Kingdom of Belgium, the Federal Republic of Germany, the French Republic, the Italian Republic, the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg; the Kingdom of the Netherlands - Member States of the European Communities; the Kingdom of Denmark; Ireland; the Kingdom of Norway and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland concerning the accession of the Kingdom of Denmark, Ireland, the Kingdom of Norway and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the European Economic Community and to the European Atomic Energy Community).

The referendum on the 5th June 1975 was should we stay in the EC (economic cooperation) or EEC (European Economic Community) commonly known as the common market.

Here are the facts about the referendums held in the UK.

The referendum on the 5th June 1975 to decide if the UK should stay in the EEC was non-binding (The electorate expressed significant support for EEC membership, with 67% in favour on a national turnout of 64%. *The referendum result was not legally binding due to the concept of Parliamentary sovereignty*).

The EU was founded on 1st November 1993 in Maastricht, Netherlands by the following founding countries Belgium, Netherlands, France, Germany, Italy and Luxemburg. The UK did not get a Referendum to join the EU and instead was transitioned into the EU from the former EEC.

The referendum on the 23rd June 2016 was to vote to either stay or leave the EU and the UK voted to leave the EU (this Referendum had a 72.2% turn out with 17,410,742 voting leave which was 51.9% of the votes. This was non-binding like the 1975 referendum but was agreed that in the event of a leave vote that it would be acted on in the terms of the referendum. Here are the referendum results: http://www.electoralcommission.org....u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information). The successive Prime Minister Theresa May (because former Prime Minster David Cameron stood down after the referendum) is trying to use the Royal Prerogative to trigger article 50 which was debated in a legal challenge at the UK High Court in London and the Government lost and it was then referred to the Supreme Court with an outstanding verdict due in January 2017 from 11 Supreme Court Judges (This is what is known as a question of law or point of law and nothing else although remain supporters think it is something bigger than it actually is). The Supreme Court Judges have expressed at the beginning and end of the trial that they are only going to answer the question "Can the Government use Royal Prerogative powers to trigger article 50 or should Parliament trigger article 50?" as a point of law (Parliament took part in a motion vote on Wednesday 7th December 2016 which showed that Parliament are behind the Government triggering article 50 by the 31st March 2016. The MPs voted 461 in favour of the successive PMs plan and only 89 against). The Supreme Court Judges have made it clear they are not going to Stop Brexit (although some remainers believe this is what the court case was about) from happening and have to be careful how they rule so they don't cross the red line between the law and politics so there ruling does not interfere with politics the Government have also made this clear to the ruling Judges. The Government is currently unable to move forward in triggering article 50 so the UK can enter 2 years of negotiations with the EU after which Parliament get to ratify the deal made with the EU before it is made lawful and enforced. If no deal is struck WTO (World Trade Organisation) rules will be enforced which the WTO have agreed will happen, so we will be trading with the EU either way Post Brexit. The successive PM has said that Parliament will get to vote on what has become known as the Great Repeal Bill which will replace and remove the European Communities Act 1972 from UK legislation. The European Communities Act 1972 has to be removed before the UK can depart the EU and at which point all EU laws will be entrenched into UK law until they are debated on in Parliament and either kept, edited or removed from UK law).

Referendums held in the UK since 1973: http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/elections/referendums-held-in-the-uk/
The above information is FACTS, FACTS, FACTS and more juicy FACTS.

So that's the facts. Right back to this:


----------



## 1290423

DONT MESS WITH MY HEELS


----------



## 1290423

I'm with stockwellcat


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lalalala....
Of course you do not want to know how much worse everyone would be...

For some who have enough to live on and take the hit..even few k a year..all good..
But as you see it does not please Leave voters to be poorer... 
After The Independent today. ( on MSN).


----------



## cheekyscrip

So it seems you would have to lose Falklands and Gibraltar.
Great way to take tour country back giving away mine.

So while you go on " I cannot hear you" 30 k British people will lose everything.
And more on Falklands.
And come back to UK. To live on the streets?

And make success of it.


----------



## Honeys mum

DT said:


> I'm with stockwellcat


And that goes for me as well.



KittenKong said:


> Margaret Thatcher called her opponents "Moaning Minnies" and told them to stop it.
> 
> They didn't and 48% of voters including those not eligible to vote won't stop being "Moaning Minnies" either.


When are you going to get the message, it hasn't happened yet, there is no proof of what it will be like . Just sheer speculation. So just wait and see and then moan if and when there is something to moan about,. In the mean time just lets wait and see, and have a good christmas.


----------



## Honeys mum

This article states in the first paragraph that.

Research has suggested, therefore this is not a fact, just a suggestion.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> And that goes for me as well.
> 
> When are you going to get the message, it hasn't happened yet, there is no proof of what it will be like . Just sheer speculation. So just wait and see and then moan if and when there is something to moan about,. In the mean time just lets wait and see, and have a good christmas.


Ah...but it is not you that may lose everything you have?
Merry Christmas to you too.
For us it is real.
Sitting and waiting: Will we be homeless? Jobless ? When?
So easy to say.


----------



## Honeys mum

This article quotes,

COULD be blocked, again this is not a fact.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> And that goes for me as well.
> 
> When are you going to get the message, it hasn't happened yet, there is no proof of what it will be like . Just sheer speculation. So just wait and see and then moan if and when there is something to moan about,. In the mean time just lets wait and see, and have a good christmas.


We're going to get a Brexit that suits Europe, not one that suits us. The EU leaders have made it crystal clear they will make it hard on us.

oh & have a good Christmas yourself x


----------



## rona

Honeys mum said:


> When are you going to get the message, it hasn't happened yet, there is no proof of what it will be like . Just sheer speculation. So just wait and see and then moan if and when there is something to moan about,. In the mean time just lets wait and see, and have a good christmas.


While I'm on the out half of the population, I can understand why people are worried, if they've never known anything else then this must seem very frightening and I can understand why some are in panic,

This is actually like you saying to someone to leave their life choices to chance and if someone else does something that upsets them or they think will be detrimental to them, they should just sit back and await their fate until it's too late to do anything about it.

I know keyboard warriors do nothing but spout but some of the concerns are very genuine


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> While I'm on the out half of the population, I can understand why people are worried, if they've never known anything else then this must seem very frightening and I can understand why some are in panic,
> 
> This is actually like you saying to someone to leave their life choices to chance and if someone else does something that upsets them or they think will be detrimental to them, they should just sit back and await their fate until it's too late to do anything about it.
> 
> I know keyboard warriors do nothing but spout but some of the concerns are very genuine


Thank you Rona. 
" If " and " might" are not good enough.
So far our ministers came from Britain with no reassurance. None. No guarantee. Nothing.
Everyone is very , very worried indeed.


----------



## noushka05

When respected *experts* from all quarters are warning us about the implications of leaving the EU & we have a shambolic, hard right government giving us nothing but empty rhetoric & stupid slogans , it is beyond worrying, its bloody terrifying.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> When respected *experts* from all quarters are warning us about the implications of leaving the EU & we have a shambolic, hard right government giving us nothing but empty rhetoric & stupid slogans , it is beyond worrying, its bloody terrifying.


With respect, how can the Government guarantee anything when we haven't even entered into negotiations with the EU and we don't know what the EU are prepared to offer. The EU won't even guarantee the rights of UK citizens living in Europe so why should the Government guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK when we don't know what the EU are going to do with our citizens residing in Europe. Think about it.

We are leaving the EU and that's it. You will just have to stop battering your heads about it and stop going around in circles with the same questions over and over again which have already been answered. Also those that feel opening court case after court case to disrupt the triggering article 50 is going to work, I hate to tell you won't work as the judges will more than likely dismiss the new cases as they have to be careful not to cross the redline between the law and politics.

Fact: We aren't around the negotiationing table yet so no definite answers can be given.

Fact: Parliament get to ratify the final deal offered by the EU to make it law or to amend it, this happens after the negotiations have concluded.

Fact: Our EU rights will remain in tack until the final deal becomes law after the vote by Parliament is ratified after negotiations with the EU have concluded, the EU has to get the deal ratified as well in the EU Parliament before it goes to the European Courts of Justice to become law and the deal enforceable. So all EU rights and laws apply to everyone in the UK and living in the EU until this happens.

Now back to this:


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> With respect, how can the Government guarantee anything when we haven't even entered into negotiations with the EU and we don't know what the EU are prepared to offer. The EU won't even guarantee the rights of UK citizens living in Europe so why should the Government guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK when we don't know what the EU are going to do with our citizens residing in Europe. Think about it.
> 
> We are leaving the EU and that's it. You will just have to stop battering your heads about it and stop going around in circles with the same questions over and over again which have already been answered. Also those that feel opening court case after court case to disrupt the triggering article 50 is going to work, I hate to tell you won't work as the judges will more than likely dismiss the new cases as they have to be careful not to cross the redline between the law and politics.
> 
> Fact: We aren't around the negotiationing table yet so no definite answers can be given.
> 
> Fact: Parliament get to ratify the final deal offered by the EU to make it law or to amend it, this happens after the negotiations have concluded.
> 
> Fact: Our rights will remain in tack until the final deal becomes law after the vote by Parliament is ratified after negotiations with the EU. So all EU rights and laws apply to everyone in the UK and living in the EU until this happens.
> 
> Now back to this:
> View attachment 293366


Well that's the whole point isn't it?, they can't guarantee us anything - anything at all, because they have nothing to bargain with. That is the simple reality of the situation we're in.

.


----------



## Honeys mum

rona said:


> While I'm on the out half of the population, I can understand why people are worried, if they've never known anything else then this must seem very frightening and I can understand why some are in panic,


Fair enough, I do unstand what your saying. But why make yourself ill about something that hasn't happened yet , and may never even happen.
Really not worth making yourself ill about. At the moment its all just speculation.
If we do join the E U and I do have my doubts about that, it will effect every one, not just the people who voted to remain.How it will affect us is still an unknown fact.
I'm off for the day now.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Fair enough, I do unstand what your saying. But why make yourself ill about something that hasn't happened yet , and may never even happen.
> Really not worth making yourself ill about. At the moment its all just speculation.
> If we do join the E U and I do have my doubts about that, it will effect every one, not just the people who voted to remain.How it will affect us is still an unknown fact.
> I'm off for the day now.


There are many uncertainties but we already know some of the ways it will affect us. Here are 10 examples for a start.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/...it-is-bound-to-be-costly-for-ordinary-people/

*
Ten reasons why Brexit is bound to be costly for ordinary people*

Ed Miliband has suggested that Labour should campaign on the basis that Brexit must happen, but not cost those on lower incomes in the country a penny. It's a nice idea in theory. In practice it suffers from the obvious flaw that it's a demand that is very obviously undeliverable. That does not make it the wrong political thing to do, but it does mean that there has to be a back up plan. I've already suggested some things I would want in that back up plan. This blog is about why Brexit is bound to harm ordinary people. The list is long*.*

*First,* there's the cost of tariffs. Put simply, we import more than we export and there is little sign of that changing. The result is we are bound to pay more in tariffs than we raise, and tariffs, like VAT, are regressive. That means more is paid as a proportion by lower income households than higher income ones. The result is a double whammy: we will all be worse off but lower income households will be worse off by more

*Second*, if we do avoid tariffs by staying in the single market we will have to pay to do so. And what is absolutely certain is that we will pay more than now: anything else is not in the EU's interests. Add up all the fees we are already suggesting we might pay the EU, whether for market access, some free movement, bank passporting and more, and the supposed £350 million a week it was falsely claimed we were paying for membership will soon look like a bargain. I can't see business and the wealthy paying for this, so you can guess who will.

*Third*, there is the direct cost of leaving, now estimated at many tens of billions required to buy us out of our commitments. Someone is going to have to pay this.

*Fourth*, after these direct issues are dealt with there are many indirect ones. The first is that there will be less investment in the UK: I know we are offering tax and other incentives to make it look otherwise right now but the cost of these will soon mount and when it does the cash will disappear. We may be good at luring tax haven activity after Brexit but it's wise to recall that nothing really happens in tax havens and income and wealth inequality is usually hideous. This is our future.

*Fifth,* UK productivity, and so income, will crash as a great many highly trained people leave the country. It does not matter whether there are quotas or anything else: life for many is being made very uncomfortable in post-Brexit Britain and skilled people will go elsewhere. That will reduce our national income at cost to us all.

*Sixth*, we're going to lose foreign earnings. I am told that across the university sector overseas applications are down 20% this year. That's a massive loss of export earnings. It's also going to push some universities into major financial crisis. And this sector is far from alone in facing such

challenges. Brexit is gong to cause job losses.

All of which, *seventh*, implies a government with lower tax revenue. And we know that even though it is entirely the wrong thing to do our governments try to cut their spending when faced with this situation, which reduces income still further, leading to yet more loss of services and income, much of which impacts on those on lowest incomes the most.

And, *eighth*, in all this we will also suffer inflation that has, at least in the short term, greatest impact on those on low income. That is the inevitable consequence of the collapse in the pound.

*Ninth,* I see few compensating factors. Tariffs in other countries will counter the fall in the value of the pound and not make our exports more attractive. Alternative export markets are far away and trade simply does not travel well. And we have no pipelines of short term domestically trained skills to replace those we will lose. I struggle to find silver linings.

So, finally, *tenth*, there would be the hope if a government realising a all this decided to protect the poorest in society and impose the costs of Brexit on the biggest businesses and highest earning people who could afford it best. But there is not a hope of that.

The government is bound to fail the Ed Miliband test. That makes it both a good and bad test simultaneously. I am not saying don't use it. But please have a plan for what happens when the government does fail. To not do so would be negligent.


----------



## rona

Really credible opinion there 

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-corbynomics-an-accountant-from-leafy-norfolk

"It seems likely that Murphy will become a full-time adviser to Corbyn and some even speculate he could be a future chancellor, an idea even he is keen to dismiss".

Oh and Ed, the man who cheated on his brother, his wife and the country


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Really credible opinion there
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-corbynomics-an-accountant-from-leafy-norfolk
> 
> "It seems likely that Murphy will become a full-time adviser to Corbyn and some even speculate he could be a future chancellor, an idea even he is keen to dismiss".


His political allegiance is irrelevant, he is an expert in his field. I follow him on twitter & fyi, he can be *extremely* critical of Corbyn & the labour party


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> , it hasn't happened yet, there is no proof of what it will be like . Just sheer speculation. So just wait and see and then moan if and when there is something to moan about,. In the mean time just lets wait and see, and have a good christmas.


I feel I and so many others have every right to express our concerns, just as you have every right to show elation.

It doesn't help anyone (not getting at you personally) when we're told to shut up and get on with it.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Well it's had rather a long time to show any improvement and doesn't seemed to have shown any, apart that we could leave


Juncker's appointment was via election by the MEP's, which was quite a large step. Admittedly the UK (Cameron) didn't get the one he wanted, but then that's democracy for you!

I really think that some leavers - not you, of course - would complain about unelected bureaucrats unless they personally got to choose every one. All too late now, though.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Juncker's appointment was via election by the MEP's, which was quite a large step. Admittedly the UK (Cameron) didn't get the one he wanted, but then that's democracy for you!
> 
> I really think that some leavers - not you, of course - would complain about unelected bureaucrats unless they personally got to choose every one. All too late now, though.


I wouldn't care who they were if they weren't lining there own pockets quite so much. It obscene what they spend on junkets. This applies to virtually all politicians of course not just those at EU HQ. The EU however are just another very expensive corrupt layer we really don't need

It's also obscene how they can change the rules on a whim when it suits their self gratifying agenda


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I wouldn't care who they were if they weren't lining there own pockets quite so much. It obscene what they spend on junkets. This applies to virtually all politicians of course not just those at EU HQ. The EU however are just another very expensive corrupt layer we really don't need
> 
> It's also obscene how they can change the rules on a whim when it suits their self gratifying agenda


Were we not leaving the EU I would question who 'they' are, and how they are lining their own pockets, which sounds like fraud, and what they spend on what 'junkets', and what makes them 'corrupt', because that is illegal, and how the EU would be run without whoever you are vilifying, and what rules they can and have changed 'on a whim' and what their self-gratifying agenda might be. And for sources to corroborate all the accusations.

But we are leaving, so it's all moot.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> With respect, how can the Government guarantee anything when we haven't even entered into negotiations with the EU and we don't know what the EU are prepared to offer. The EU won't even guarantee the rights of UK citizens living in Europe so why should the Government guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK when we don't know what the EU are going to do with our citizens residing in Europe. Think about it.


Conveniently forgetting that this has already been shown to be false. The rights of people in the EU who have been there for 5 years is already protected by laws which cannot simply be dropped as inconvenient, unlike laws concerning people from the EU, residing in the UK. The EU is also pushing for necessary changes to make it easier for anyone in the UK to retain the right to free movement not just those currently living in the EU. On the opposite side we have TM blasting all immigrants even those working in the NHS. We have politicians suggesting companies need to keep a list of all immigrants We then have TM saying EU residents in the UK are simply pawns for the negotiating table. Think about facts rather what is simply stated by politicians.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Were we not leaving the EU I would question who 'they' are, and how they are lining their own pockets, which sounds like fraud, and what they spend on what 'junkets', and what makes them 'corrupt', because that is illegal, and how the EU would be run without whoever you are vilifying, and what rules they can and have changed 'on a whim' and what their self-gratifying agenda might be. And for sources to corroborate all the accusations.
> 
> But we are leaving, so it's all moot.


Go look for yourself it's all there to be found


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> I feel I and so many others have every right to express our concerns, just as you have every right to show elation.
> 
> It doesn't help anyone (not getting at you personally) when we're told to shut up and get on with it.


Please read what I posted earlier, 


Honeys mum said:


> Fair enough, I do unstand what your saying. But why make yourself ill about something that hasn't happened yet , and may never even happen.
> Really not worth making yourself ill about. At the moment its all just speculation.
> If we do join the E U and I do have my doubts about that, it will effect every one, not just the people who voted to remain.How it will affect us is still an unknown fact.
> I'm off for the day now.


Without repeating myself too much,what I am trying to say is, why worry about something that hasn't happened yet, it;s not worth making yourself ill over .


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Go look for yourself it's all there to be found


Thank you, but no. I think such chimeras would only take on the forms you describe with the help of a perspective I don't possess.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I wouldn't care who they were if they weren't lining there own pockets quite so much. It obscene what they spend on junkets. This applies to virtually all politicians of course not just those at EU HQ. The EU however are just another very expensive corrupt layer we really don't need


So explain to me how the EU is far less expensive on bureucracy than the UK government on a per head basis.

I would love to see those sources. After all we get told EU finances are not audited to hide corruption, yet they are audited. We get told the EU is run by unelected bureaucrats, which is a another lie. We get told the EU is generally corrupt...

Not saying EU doesn't needs to any changes. Plenty of people working within the system pushing for changes including transparancy and those changes are slowly happening.

Interesting rona that you don't push anything positive about leaving, only what you believe are negatives of the EU which could potentially be changed from within.


----------



## Honeys mum

rona said:


> Oh and Ed, the man who cheated on his brother, his wife and the country


Very well put rona, who on earth is going to listen to him.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Very well put rona, who on earth is going to listen to him.


Love the quality of facts used to support leaving...


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Interesting rona that you don't push anything positive about leaving, only what you believe are negatives of the EU which could potentially be changed from within.


I'm not sure what the main positives will be yet, I'm just sure after watching the debacle of the EU develop from conception, that it's got to be a great deal better than that

Links. I'm not willing to look for hours to show the cover ups, frivolity and idiocy that I've seen over the last 40 odd years


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Conveniently forgetting that this has already been shown to be false. The rights of people in the EU who have been there for 5 years is already protected by laws which cannot simply be dropped as inconvenient, unlike laws concerning people from the EU, residing in the UK. The EU is also pushing for necessary changes to make it easier for anyone in the UK to retain the right to free movement not just those currently living in the EU. On the opposite side we have TM blasting all immigrants even those working in the NHS. We have politicians suggesting companies need to keep a list of all immigrants We then have TM saying EU residents in the UK are simply pawns for the negotiating table. Think about facts rather what is simply stated by politicians.


I have expressed my opinions in this thread and don't have the interest or energy to keep coming back to answer questions that have already been answered over and over again. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Now I am going to unwatch this thread so I don't get anymore notifications and can get on with doing other things.

I am sorry if you find the following rude or offensive but:


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I have expressed my opinions in this thread and don't have the interest or energy to keep coming back to answer questions that have already been answered over and over again. You have your opinion, I have mine.
> 
> Now I am going to unwatch this thread so I don't get anymore notifications and can get on with doing other things.
> 
> I am sorry if you find the following rude or offensive but:
> 
> View attachment 293398


For facts and arguments you possess not.


----------



## Zaros

​


----------



## kimthecat

@Zaros :Hilarious Snort , chortle ! Thanks Mr Z for posting this . I think we all need a jolly good laugh.

(Snort and Chortle would make good names for Santa's reindeer ! perhaps we could start an "Alternative names for Santas reindeer " thread


----------



## rona

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38286708

"Far-right group National Action to be banned under terror laws"

I have faith in this country, even if no one else does.
We've always been seen as a fair nation, so much so that if we are at war, the enemy would often rather be captured by UK forces than any other.
Our NHS has been the envy of many for a long long time

Yes we go through bad patches and the odd things goes wrong, but overall I believe we have much to be proud.


----------



## Honeys mum

Katie Hopkins DESTROYS LBC caller claiming Brexiteers are 'uneducated' | UK | News | Daily Express

So now people who voted to leave are either old cretins or thick, what next.?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Katie Hopkins DESTROYS LBC caller claiming Brexiteers are 'uneducated' | UK | News | Daily Express
> 
> So now people who voted to leave are either old cretins or thick, what next.?


Or fans of Kate Hopkins perhaps?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38286708
> 
> "Far-right group National Action to be banned under terror laws"
> 
> I have faith in this country, even if no one else does.
> We've always been seen as a fair nation, so much so that if we are at war, the enemy would often rather be captured by UK forces than any other.
> Our NHS has been the envy of many for a long long time
> 
> Yes we go through bad patches and the odd things goes wrong, but overall I believe we have much to be proud.


You are one of the best. 
But in EU are many good people too. Good systems and good will.
Good people are everywhere. When you live in different places you can appreciate that.
When greed, hatred and tyranny are rising those people should unite.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> When greed, hatred and tyranny are rising those people should unite.


In my eyes you are describing the EU well maybe not the hate but certainly disrespect


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38286708
> 
> "Far-right group National Action to be banned under terror laws".


Good news but I can't help thinking Ms Rudd's a bit hypocritical seeing she suggested firms should disclose how many foreign workers they employ.......


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> In my eyes you are describing the EU well maybe not the hate but certainly disrespect


The greed, hate and tyranny is risinG in the world...I mean countries ruled by megarich handful with subdued masses like in Russia.
China. Countries ruled by tyrants like in Latin America or Africa.

Talking about disrespect: The worst I ever saw and made feel truly embarrassed was Farage victory speech.
Not even the content but the way it was said. , the sheer insults." Haven't worked a day in their life"... How little he knew about those people.
Never heard Donald Tusk being disrespectful. 
Man from very humble origins. Hard working and very modest. Honest man.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Good news but I can't help thinking Ms Rudd's a bit hypocritical seeing she suggested firms are named and shamed for employing foreign workers......


That would be all British universities and NHS. Shame on them!!!
Should send all those foreigners right back...
And then disband.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Talking about disrespect: The worst I ever saw and made feel truly embarrassed was Farage victory speech.


That was embarrassing to watch but the man has thrown himself forward and the papers and remainers (as well as Trump) keep giving him a platform.
I think he's best ignored


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> That was embarrassing to watch but the man has thrown himself forward and the papers and remainers (as well as Trump) keep giving him a platform.
> I think he's best ignored


But think he might be knighted and as Sir Nigel of Trump Undergarment send to be British Ambassador in US.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> You have your opinion, I have mine.


You have opinion, I have facts, facts which I have looked up partly as it directly affects me. I know rights of UK people living in the EU are protected. People in the UK cannot say the same. Yet TM insists on using them as bargaining pieces.



> Now I am going to unwatch this thread so I don't get anymore notifications and can get on with doing other things.


Again.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Ive a better chance of winning the Euromillions than the UK has of leaving the EU


----------



## cheekyscrip

Thatcher defended very inch of British soil wherever it was. World watched with greatest respect.
The lion roared. Britannia ruled the waves again.

Now Gibraltar and Falklands are pawns in trading game.
After heroic defense and loyal service of over three hundred years.

We voted Remain to stay British. 
I am afraid Brexit treats us as collateral damage. To be traded to Spain.

How that does make Britain great?

Our Chief Minister went to London and came with nothing. Hardly given any time at all.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Now Gibraltar and Falklands are pawns in trading game.





cheekyscrip said:


> I am afraid Brexit treats us as collateral damage. To be traded to Spain.


Have you any proof of this?

Or is it your fear talking?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Have you any proof of this?
> 
> Or is it your fear talking?


Not fear. But there are indications. 
Sorry the rest is confidential until in press.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, the idea that UK residents may have the option to maintain EU benefits did sound too good to be true.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...r-british-nationals-has-no-chance-say-experts

And who can blame them.


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## Goblin

Kimthecat, have at least 2 more years of Brussels.


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> @Zaros :Hilarious Snort , chortle ! Thanks Mr Z for posting this . I think* we all need a jolly good laugh. *
> 
> (Snort and Chortle would make good names for Santa's reindeer ! perhaps we could start an "Alternative names for Santas reindeer " thread


Well, for those of us who can still laugh and haven't been reduced to tears by the recent ongoing events, perhaps. 

As for renaming Santa's Reindeer........maybe we could find the appropriate politicians who might be suited better to the names of Snow White's Dwarves instead.

After all, it is the pantomime season and, it would seem, the whole world has become a bit of a pantomime lately.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> Well, for those of us who can still laugh and haven't been reduced to tears by the recent ongoing events, perhaps.


But wasn't that the point of your humorous picture ? To cheer us up , other wise why did you bother to post it .?


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> *But wasn't that the point* of your humorous picture ? *To cheer us up* , other wise why did you bother to post it .?


Indeed.  For those of us who still can be cheered up 

102 years ago the world was in some pretty deep sh1t, but despite those terrible circumstances, we were still able to find a small moment of good will for each other.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Santa and reindeer lot would get deported as soon as they land.
Though Santa might be charged with import of illegal goods and unchecked livestock.
The goods and the livestock would be detained as evidence and destroyed later.

The dwarfs do not give a toss.


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Santa and reindeer lot would get deported as soon as they land.
> Though Santa might be charged with import of illegal goods and unchecked livestock.
> The goods and the livestock would be detained as evidence and destroyed later.
> 
> *The dwarfs do not give a toss.*


Very true Scrippy. But there's nothing to stop you tossing a Dwarf.

It's quite a popular sport/pastime in some areas of the world

Although I'm quite sure it's fairly undignified for our Tyrion.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> Indeed.  For those of us who still can be cheered up
> 
> 102 years ago the world was in some pretty deep sh1t, but despite those terrible circumstances, we were still able to find a small moment of good will for each other.


Indeed and it was keep a stiff upper lip and our sense of humour that kept us going through the war , remember Hitler only had one ball .
I come from a generation who lived through the war and that was the way people my age were brought up , cry in private , and get on with it and put on a face even if your hearts breaking . That's how I keep going most of the time , making jokes.

Does that mean I don't care or don't cry when I see the children of Aleppo being pulled out of the rubble of bombed buildings, no it doesn't , it hurts my heart but being sad all the time isn't in any way going to help them .

Im sorry you feel you cant be cheered up though.


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> I come from a generation who lived through the war
> 
> Im sorry you feel you cant be cheered up though.


 I take it that would be the second then.

:Facepalm I'm not miserable..:Hilarious Far from it. You've misconstrued me. :Shamefullyembarrased

However, my mood is quite likely to change on Friday morning shortly after setting off on a marathon 12-16 hour drive to the MIL's house.

The roads here can be a bit of a war zone themselves. Nobody wants to observe the legal speed limits, they over take in the most ridiculous of places and force themselves in front of you if they can't quite complete the manoeuvre in time. 
And all this on roads that are almost snow bound or the surface is covered in an inch or so of ice.

Yea though I drive through the valley of the shadow of death.....and all that malarkey.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> Very true Scrippy. But there's nothing to stop you tossing a Dwarf.
> 
> It's quite a popular sport/pastime in some areas of the world
> 
> Although I'm quite sure it's fairly undignified for our Tyrion.


Oh ..no. I was banned as non PC towards vertically challenged.
Dwarves objected as they said they actually enjoyed it and it was such nice little earner....

@Zaros the solution is in solution.
MrsZee can drive while you imbibe enough of absinth to keep you oblivious.

Till Epiphany when you would safely! Or so we hope! Be delivered to your den.
Merry Merry Christmas.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> I take it that would be the second then.


oy cheeky ! of course its the second one . Im not *that *old



> :Facepalm I'm not miserable..:Hilarious Far from it. You've misconstrued me. :Shamefullyembarrased


Im glad to hear that



> However, my mood is quite likely to change on Friday morning shortly after setting off on a marathon 12-16 hour drive to the MIL's house.
> 
> The roads here can be a bit of a war zone themselves. Nobody wants to observe the legal speed limits, they over take in the most ridiculous of places and force themselves in front of you if they can't quite complete the manoeuvre in time.
> And all this on roads that are almost snow bound or the surface is covered in an inch or so of ice.
> 
> Yea though I drive through the valley of the shadow of death.....and all that malarkey.


Blimey , sounds like driving in London except without the snow.

Seriously , take care , PF wouldn't be the same without you and your weird humour . ( I dont really mean weird but I can't think of another word to describe it .  )


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh ..no. I was banned as non PC towards vertically challenged.
> Dwarves objected as they said they actually enjoyed it and it was such nice little earner....
> 
> *@Zaros the solution is in solution.
> MrsZee can drive while you imbibe enough of absinth to keep you oblivious.*
> 
> Till Epiphany when you would safely! Or so we hope! Be delivered to your den.
> Merry Merry Christmas.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious

:Jawdrop Are you nuts?
MrsZee at the wheel (or the enemy within) would simply increase my risk of death on the roads. :Facepalm

Besides, my driving licence is more advanced than I am, so it kinda stands to reason I should take the helm and be responsible for my life all times.

Even if it isn't worth a great deal...

...to a butcher.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> When respected *experts* from all quarters are warning us about the implications of leaving the EU & we have a shambolic, hard right government giving us nothing but empty rhetoric & stupid slogans , it is beyond worrying, its bloody terrifying.


Oh, did trump or Nigel warn us of implications noush sorry I missed it x


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> So explain to me how the EU is far less expensive on bureucracy than the UK government on a per head basis.
> 
> I would love to see those sources. After all we get told EU finances are not audited to hide corruption, yet they are audited. We get told the EU is run by unelected bureaucrats, which is a another lie. We get told the EU is generally corrupt...


The eu books are signed off, yes, Doesn't mean they balance, 4.4% is unaccounted for, that could be fraudulent they say, but no further action, so how much is 4.4% exactly?


----------



## 1290423

Probably a small island


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> For facts and arguments you possess not.





rona said:


> I'm not sure what the main positives will be yet, I'm just sure after watching the debacle of the EU develop from conception, that it's got to be a great deal better than that
> 
> Links. I'm not willing to look for hours to show the cover ups, frivolity and idiocy that I've seen over the last 40 odd years


Yep I agree with that


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Love the quality of facts used to support leaving...


On a par with those put through by those supporting remain.


----------



## 1290423

Zaros said:


> Well, for those of us who can still laugh and haven't been reduced to tears by the recent ongoing events, perhaps.
> 
> As for renaming Santa's Reindeer........maybe we could find the appropriate politicians who might be suited better to the names of Snow White's Dwarves instead.
> 
> After all, it is the pantomime season and, it would seem, the whole world has become a bit of a pantomime lately.


Santas reindeers are knackered so it seems, since joining the eu they have been getting smaller and weaker, they are no longer fit to pull a sledge!


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> I feel I and so many others have every right to express our concerns, just as you have every right to show elation.
> 
> It doesn't help anyone (not getting at you personally) when we're told to shut up and get on with it.


Well had the boot have been on the other foot reckon that would have been the tune we'd be singing to now, so yeah why not!
Shut up and get on with it


----------



## 1290423

Just a reminder like, incase you have forgotten,
IM STILL OUT


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Were we not leaving the EU I would question who 'they' are, and how they are lining their own pockets, which sounds like fraud, and what they spend on what 'junkets', and what makes them 'corrupt', because that is illegal, and how the EU would be run without whoever you are vilifying, and what rules they can and have changed 'on a whim' and what their self-gratifying agenda might be. And for sources to corroborate all the accusations.
> 
> But we are leaving, so it's all moot.


Here you go. Goblin just gave me a link to this site. Might explain a few things about the how money talks above all else in the EU. 
https://corporateeurope.org/es/node/2364


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> The eu books are signed off, yes, Doesn't mean they balance, 4.4% is unaccounted for, that could be fraudulent they say, but no further action, so how much is 4.4% exactly?


Yet that balance is well within legal accepted parameters. Most of that 4% is where money has been paid out when it shouldn't have been and attempts are made to recover this. Shame you don't actually provide details but then I guess you know it wouldn't support your case. Is it perfect, no but then I wonder what the UK government books are like for comparison.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-16-3344_en.htm


----------



## rona

This one is particularly interesting 
https://corporateeurope.org/climate-and-energy/2015/04/carte-blanche-fracking

"The newly created "European Science and Technology Network on Unconventional Hydrocarbon Extraction" (or Network) is supposed to assess current projects, as well as recommend which technologies are appropriate and safe enough for Europe. Unfortunately for the public, the majority of its members (including those from industry, academia and other research bodies) have a clear financial stake in the expansion of fracking and are in no position to objectively assess its safety."

This is backed up by Friends of the earth Europe
https://corporateeurope.org/sites/default/files/attachments/carte_blanche_for_fracking_final.pdf

https://www.desmog.uk/2016/02/26/in...ing-expert-group-scrapped-european-commission
The decision came into effect this week, shortly before the European Ombudsman was set to present her findings into the complaint submitted by FoE and CEO.

Antoine Simon, shale gas campaigner for FoE Europe said: "It's no coincidence that the European Commission decided to scrap this expert group shortly before the European Ombudsman rules on our claim for malpractice.

Fracking has already been given the go ahead though hasn't it?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Yet that balance is well within legal accepted parameters. Most of that 4% is where money has been paid out when it shouldn't have been and attempts are made to recover this. Shame you don't actually provide details but then I guess you know it wouldn't support your case. Is it perfect, no but then I wonder what the UK government books are like for comparison.
> 
> http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-16-3344_en.htm


We all know how easy it is for big business to cook the books. I don't think our government are much if any better,, just on a small level. Just because our government also tries it on, doesn't mean we should except it on the gigantic scale of the EU


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Here you go. Goblin just gave me a link to this site. Might explain a few things about the how money talks above all else in the EU.
> https://corporateeurope.org/es/node/2364


Funny, name a government or democratic system which does not have lobbying? Think the UK is any better. So tell me, how open is the Government being on the deal made with Nissan again? What about selling off basic essential ultilities and what does that mean in terms of influence?

Some people analysed new UK Register of Lobbyists and data from Parliamentary registers of interests. They found:

Less than 4% of lobbyists are covered by the Government's new lobbying register - *almost all lobbyists are completely unaccountable.*
8/10 of the most frequent lobbyists are from FTSE 100 companies - *lobbying is dominated by the corporate world*.
£3.4 million paid to 73 MP's last year for external advisory roles - a *significant risk of conflicts of interest.*
Payments for Parliamentary advice is still allowed in the House of Commons, but prohibited in the House of Lords, Scotland and Wales *- a major loophole in the rules*
So, what about the EU. Not perfect either, recent legislation didn't go far enough either but http://www.integritywatch.eu/ could be of use. Thing is, we could have helped change occur within the system. Changes which could ripple throughout the EU. We've lost it.

As for size. Have you compared the cost of UK bureaucracy on a per head basis with the EU. EU is far more efficient.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> We all know how easy it is for big business to cook the books. I don't think our government are much if any better,, just on a small level. Just because our government also tries it on, doesn't mean we should except it on the gigantic scale of the EU


Oh wait, now as the books are available (despite what many stated who voted leave stated) they are guilty of cooking the books. You really are desparate aren't you.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Oh wait, now as the books are available (despite what many stated who voted leave stated) they are guilty of cooking the books. You really are desparate aren't you.


Nope


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Funny, name a government or democratic system which does not have lobbying? Think the UK is any better. So tell me, how open is the Government being on the deal made with Nissan again? What about selling off basic essential ultilities and what does that mean in terms of influence?
> 
> Some people analysed new UK Register of Lobbyists and data from Parliamentary registers of interests. They found:
> 
> Less than 4% of lobbyists are covered by the Government's new lobbying register - *almost all lobbyists are completely unaccountable.*
> 8/10 of the most frequent lobbyists are from FTSE 100 companies - *lobbying is dominated by the corporate world*.
> £3.4 million paid to 73 MP's last year for external advisory roles - a *significant risk of conflicts of interest.*
> Payments for Parliamentary advice is still allowed in the House of Commons, but prohibited in the House of Lords, Scotland and Wales *- a major loophole in the rules*
> So, what about the EU. Not perfect either, recent legislation didn't go far enough either but http://www.integritywatch.eu/ could be of use. Thing is, we could have helped change occur within the system. Changes which could ripple throughout the EU. We've lost it.
> 
> As for size. Have you compared the cost of UK bureaucracy on a per head basis with the EU. EU is far more efficient.


And who is it exactly that runs that little enterprise?

Ooo the EU


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Fracking has already been given the go ahead though hasn't it?


Not in Germany no, it's banned fracking. Something to do with how it retains sovereignty.


----------



## kimthecat

If you search for EU fraud and corruption , a lot of info comes up . Its seems there are a lot of fraudulent subsidy claims from different countries that cost the EU billions each year but OLAF , (who ever he is  ) manages to recover some of it .

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-fraud-idUKKCN0YM0Q8

Corruption at least £99 billion annually (ETA the EU annually )

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387


----------



## rona

This from your last link Goblin dated today
http://transparency.eu/limitedprogressethics/
"The report provides only limited progress on overhauling the Parliament's ethics rules following recent scandals."
"There are still shortcomings when it comes to conflicts of interest and what is more, many MEPs do not provide enough details on their activities to allow the public to monitor potential conflicts of interest. Despite 12 breaches of the current Code of Conduct, not a single MEP has ever been sanctioned, according to research by Transparency International EU."


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387


Maybe you should look at those figures. How is leaving the UK going to prevent UK corruption costing the economy. This isn't direct EU corruption being discussed. Simple example how does leaving the EU prevent prison officers dealing with drugs to prison inmates? That's corruption which could come under that figure.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Not in Germany no, it's banned fracking. Something to do with how it retains sovereignty.


Though test drilling is still allowed


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> This from your last link Goblin dated today
> http://transparency.eu/limitedprogressethics/
> "The report provides only limited progress on overhauling the Parliament's ethics rules following recent scandals."
> "There are still shortcomings when it comes to conflicts of interest and what is more, many MEPs do not provide enough details on their activities to allow the public to monitor potential conflicts of interest. Despite 12 breaches of the current Code of Conduct, not a single MEP has ever been sanctioned, according to research by Transparency International EU."


Your point? What does leaving the EU accomplish? Is the UK government clean... don't think so. You are reaching for excuses. Change is happening slowly. Change the UK is not pushing for or contributing to. Leaving the EU doesn't stop corruption. Doesn't achieve anything really.


----------



## kimthecat

@Goblin sorry I meant it cost the EU .


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Though test drilling is still allowed


Not strictly true either. Needs permission at the more local state level. A level which is also answerable democratically to the people. It's a federal system, lower saxony has no breed specific legislation despite it being set at the country wide level. Other states go further banning additional breeds to the country wide level.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Your point? What does leaving the EU accomplish? Is the UK government clean... don't think so. You are reaching for excuses. Change is happening slowly. Change the UK is not pushing for or contributing to. Leaving the EU doesn't stop corruption. Doesn't achieve anything really.


See I don't understand why you keep comparing the UK government to the EU. There is no relevance to that and I've never ever said that our government is anything but the same. It's the people who are the country not the government


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Not strictly true either. Needs permission at the more local state level. A level which is also answerable democratically to the people. It's a federal system, lower saxony has no breed specific legislation despite it being set at the country wide level. Other states go further banning additional breeds to the country wide level.


Maybe but it's only a 5 year ban


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Maybe you should look at those figures.


What ? You mean I have to read this stuff? I don't think so. ! 
i just like doing searches and seeing what comes up . :Hilarious
( Sorry , Goblin. Just ignore me ! I've got cabin fever)


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> Very true Scrippy. But there's nothing to stop you tossing a Dwarf.
> 
> It's quite a popular sport/pastime in some areas of the world


 Ooh you are awful but I like you !


----------



## kimthecat

@rona I remember the term Gravy train popping frequently especially about the Kinnocks . They did very well out of it !


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> @rona I remember the term Gravy train popping frequently especially about the Kinnocks . They did very well out of it !


As did the Blairs


----------



## noushka05

Fracking has been pushed through by the tory government NOT the EU @rona


----------



## rona

So it may be but at least they are up front about it unlike the EU 
http://www.foeeurope.org/sites/default/files/shale_gas/2016/foee-truth-about-gas-september2016.pdf
Many grassroots groups across Europe have successfully fought to put in place a ban or a
moratorium on fracking. In other European countries fracking is authorized but companies have
abandoned their plans due too strong environmental impact assessments or poor results during
explorations. The UK, Spain, Hungary, Germany and Poland remain the few European countries
that (may) still face fracking domestically. While these concerns have been raised,*the EU is actively encouraging non-European countries to ex port their gas to Europe

"While the EU (almost) no longer needs to handle the concern of its citizens
or the impacts on its environment, it is enthusiastically encouraging the damage to be
happening elsewhere and benefiting from it"
*
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> This from your last link Goblin dated today
> http://transparency.eu/limitedprogressethics/
> "The report provides only limited progress on overhauling the Parliament's ethics rules following recent scandals."
> "There are still shortcomings when it comes to conflicts of interest and what is more, many MEPs do not provide enough details on their activities to allow the public to monitor potential conflicts of interest. Despite 12 breaches of the current Code of Conduct, not a single MEP has ever been sanctioned, according to research by Transparency International EU."


Not even Farage with second highest numebers of absences from MEP where he is paid! 
What a waste!
But maybe they are not exactly missing him?

Fracking really depends on your country. EU is not imposing ot!
Tories make money on it! EU is very much blamed for what has nothing to do with them! 
Like why North of UK is poorer than South or why you have schools in hands of pro Islamic terrorism or your courts accept sharia law!!!
PC gone crazy and no Christmas lights is not imposed by EU.
Or illegal immigration. 
Benefit system. Housing system.
All that is own doing and whether in or out would depend on Britain.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> So it may be but at least they are up front about it unlike the EU
> http://www.foeeurope.org/sites/default/files/shale_gas/2016/foee-truth-about-gas-september2016.pdf
> Many grassroots groups across Europe have successfully fought to put in place a ban or a
> moratorium on fracking. In other European countries fracking is authorized but companies have
> abandoned their plans due too strong environmental impact assessments or poor results during
> explorations. The UK, Spain, Hungary, Germany and Poland remain the few European countries
> that (may) still face fracking domestically. While these concerns have been raised,*the EU is actively encouraging non-European countries to ex port their gas to Europe
> 
> "While the EU (almost) no longer needs to handle the concern of its citizens
> or the impacts on its environment, it is enthusiastically encouraging the damage to be
> happening elsewhere and benefiting from it"
> *
> .


This government aren't _upfront _about anything. They are rotten to the core.

*Tories held back a damaging fracking report until after planning decision was granted in Blackpool*

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/andrea-leadsom-held-back-damaging-9333582#ICID=sharebar_twitter


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Not even Farage with second highest numebers of absences from MEP where he is paid!
> What a waste!
> But maybe they are not exactly missing him?
> 
> Fracking really depends on your country. EU is not imposing ot!
> Tories make money on it!


This is what Nigel Farage really thinks of ukip supporters. Man of the people my ass.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Not even Farage with second highest numebers of absences from MEP where he is paid!
> What a waste!
> But maybe they are not exactly missing him?
> 
> Fracking really depends on your country. EU is not imposing ot!
> Tories make money on it! EU is very much blamed for what has nothing to do with them!
> Like why North of UK is poorer than South or why you have schools in hands of pro Islamic terrorism or your courts accept sharia law!!!
> PC gone crazy and no Christmas lights is not imposed by EU.
> Or illegal immigration.
> Benefit system. Housing system.
> All that is own doing and whether in or out would depend on Britain.


They also aren't saviours of the world as some seem to think

Noushka. I love your quality links


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> They also aren't saviours of the world as some seem to think
> 
> Noushka. I love your quality links


Cheers! I'd love to say the same about yours... lol


----------



## rona

The best ones are the ones Goblin posted......they show the true colours of the EU


----------



## Goblin

Your argument on environment is clutching at straws Rona and you know it. There will always be more than can be done and you can focus on that. However look at what is done and the overall record. Where is most of the environmental protection the government adopts coming from.. Answer is the EU.

Simple question you've previous ignored. What's the status of UK beaches again? What the current status of cod stocks in fishing grounds? What's the EU doing about pesticides and bee population? What's the government doing? Oh wait, I'll make it easier for you regarding bees:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...pends-ban-pesticides-linked-serious-harm-bees



rona said:


> See I don't understand why you keep comparing the UK government to the EU. There is no relevance to that and I've never ever said that our government is anything but the same. It's the people who are the country not the government


Your argument is the EU is corrupt so it's a reason to leave the EU. The UK government is corrupt but that's fine presumably as we've taken back control. Hate to break it to you but with leaving the EU we have lost some accountability and handed more power to the government to make deals behind closed doors with companies and lobbyists. It's the people who are the EU just as much as the people are the country.



rona said:


> The best ones are the ones Goblin posted......they show the true colours of the EU


Key thing is Rona that the information is easily available. Progress is being made slowly and at the same time, corruption in various countries is being pushed as unacceptable. That progress is something we could have been part in and act as an influencial partner. The UK hasn't taken back control of anything. It is simply removing itself. There's a reason the EU wanted the UK in. It's not simply money, it's the UK's influence in it's processes. It's voice, often counter to standard was important. We've lost out, the rest of the EU has lost out.

So come back to the core question, what has or will be gained?


----------



## leashedForLife

.
fracking is bad business - both in theory, & in practice.
.
the idea of shoving high-pressure streams of water laced with various solvents undergound, like narrowly-directed fire hoses of a chemical cocktail, is insane in itself.
Groundwater is our planetwide long-term banking system for potable / drinkable water, which totals LESS * THAN * 3% * OF * ALL * THE * WATER * ON * Earth.
Spaceship Earth has a helluva lot of water, covering some 76% of the planet's surface - but 8 gallons of 10 are saline [sea], briney [tidal], alkaline or arsenical [toxic], or otherwise undrinkable. 
Jamming a bunch of pips filled with nasty chemicals at extreme pressures into undergound strata will, inevitably, contaminate underground H2O - whether it's in the form of an aquifer, subterranean rivers or streams, a seep between rock layers, wells or springs.
.
every molecule of undergound water is virtually connected to all the others nearby; there are no walls we could build to 'protect' CLEAN water from dirty fracking injections, the chemical-cocktail goes thruout the strata, uncontrolled, directed only by the extreme pressure behind it, & the cracks & fissures it finds to force open & fill.
.
worse yet, U-S oil & gas companies claim their chemical mixtures are "proprietary" -- & won't release the ingredients to anyone, including the E.P.A.
Without a recipe for the fracking solution of So-&-So Petroleum, it's dam*ed hard to PROVE they ruined Ur well, making Ur home dependent on bottled water & destroying Ur livelihood - farming - as fracking compounds are toxic, & accumulate in root crops, grains, fruits, & vegetables.
Nor can U water livestock with such contaminated water - so the property value of Ur farm is now virtually zero.
.
This of course says nothing abt region-wide or wildlife FX, etc.
I'm speaking only of 1 farm, & 1 family's loss - but water being fluid, it's never that limited.
It's devastating.

.
.
.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Here you go. Goblin just gave me a link to this site. Might explain a few things about the how money talks above all else in the EU.
> https://corporateeurope.org/es/node/2364


The EU initiatives on Climate Change seem quite encouraging to me.

http://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/ets_en

However, I would be the first to admit that big business and corporate lobbying have more of a say than perhaps they should. That's in every capitalist economy in the world, though, not just in the EU, where it may even be less of an issue for all I know.

It doesn't, though, tell me indicate that the EU is fraudulent, corrupt, changing laws on a whim to suit their own agenda etc etc

But as I said, we're Leaving so it's all moot. We will soon be on our own, in a land of milk and honey, where money barely whispers and corporate lobbyists are impotent pariahs in the corridors of power.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> We all know how easy it is for big business to cook the books. I don't think our government are much if any better,, just on a small level. Just because our government also tries it on, doesn't mean we should except it on the gigantic scale of the EU


EU budget c. €150 bn

UK budget c. €700 bn


----------



## Goblin

All I can say about this is ouch...

http://www.pressherald.com/2016/12/...hun-reviled-briton-who-campaigned-for-brexit/


----------



## cheekyscrip

That means collapse of our economy. Immigration.Into nothing.

Spain reacted immediately that only shared sovereignty will give us access to EU trades. Out of EU we are unregulated territory.
Whichever way doomed
@rona now I can post it. It is published.

Unregulated territory means the end of our financial sector. Closed frontier means end of tourism and trade.

No way 30k can survive. Maybe 3k. Nearly everyone would have to leave everything they worked for and go.
All British but Britain does not care.
Homeless and jobless.

Yes. Fear.


----------



## Honeys mum

*Brexit Minister David Davis 'loath' to pursue special status for Gibraltar *
The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union says he would be loath to go down the route of having differentiated statuses for Gibraltar and Northern Ireland in the Brexit deal.

David Davis was addressing a special committee in the House of Lords this afternoon, where he was asked about the possibility of a slightly different deal for Gibraltar and Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK because of their specific circumstances.

The Brexit Minister said he didn't think it would be a good idea to go down that route. He said the UK government is looking at all options and is not ruling anything out. He said the more difficult the problem, the more options will be looked at. But at the moment he doesn't see one that provides for a differentiated status for Gibraltar, dealing a blow to the Chief Minister's hopes of achieving a special status.

Mr Davis said the main issue for Gibraltar is sovereignty and the UK is clear it will always respect the wishes of the people of Gibraltar to remain British.

In case you didn't see it cheekyscrip this is the comlpete article.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Can yo


Honeys mum said:


> *Brexit Minister David Davis 'loath' to pursue special status for Gibraltar *
> The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union says he would be loath to go down the route of having differentiated statuses for Gibraltar and Northern Ireland in the Brexit deal.
> 
> David Davis was addressing a special committee in the House of Lords this afternoon, where he was asked about the possibility of a slightly different deal for Gibraltar and Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK because of their specific circumstances.
> 
> The Brexit Minister said he didn't think it would be a good idea to go down that route. He said the UK government is looking at all options and is not ruling anything out. He said the more difficult the problem, the more options will be looked at. But at the moment he doesn't see one that provides for a differentiated status for Gibraltar, dealing a blow to the Chief Minister's hopes of achieving a special status.
> 
> Mr Davis said the main issue for Gibraltar is sovereignty and the UK is clear it will always respect the wishes of the people of Gibraltar to remain British.
> 
> In case you didn't see it cheekyscrip this is the comlpete article.


U please read my post?

Neither Northern Ireland would be given back.
The threat is directly to viability of sustaining our economy!!!
Sorry but people need to eat to live.
30k . My family.
Garfield and Scrip 
Main income is tourism and financial sector.
With that gone we would or starve to death or have to abandon everything..house we bought etc...and go to Britain.
Homeless and jobless.

With kids and pets...

Imagine yourself and yours in that position.


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> U please read my post?


Perhaps you could read mine cheekscrip, I was just pointing out that there was more to the article, and I do have a name thankyou.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Perhaps you could read mine cheekscrip, I was just pointing out that there was more to the article, and I do have a name thankyou.


Sorry. Cannot post links.

The wish of people is to be able to work to eat etc...
City is being given special status to carry on?

We need to have passable frontier and legal status like Channel Islands.
So we can carry on Honeymum.

Else billions worth business and infrastructure will become worthless.
Our homes etc.
No work equals no future.


----------



## Honeys mum

Sorry cheekyscrip, but you obviously are not reading my posts.


----------



## Jesthar

Honeys mum said:


> Sorry cheekyscrip, but you obviously are not reading my posts.


To be fair to Scrippy, I'm not sure what point you are trying to draw out either. The extra to the article doesn't make any difference to the fact that leaving the EU will mean Scrippy will no longer have a job as their line of employment is dependent on being part of the EU. Unless I am missing something


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38326530

Love him or loath him you have to admire Murdoch. Unable to take supreme control over Sky following the phone hacking scandal he launches another bid under the 21st Century Fox banner.

May and co owes her boss a favour or two so no doubt he'll be successful this time. What next, the BBC?

Perhaps Sky should be renamed Sun tv. After all the sun is in the sky....


----------



## Honeys mum

Jesthar said:


> To be fair to Scrippy, I'm not sure what point you are trying to draw out either. The extra to the article doesn't make any difference to the fact that leaving the EU will mean Scrippy will no longer have a job as their line of employment is dependent on being part of the EU. Unless I am missing something


Sorry, but I have no idea what their line of employment is. All I know is we haven't left the E U yet, and who knows, perhaps we never will.

Brexit trade deal could take 10 years, says UK's ambassador - BBC News


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Sorry, but I have no idea what their line of employment is. All I know is we haven't left the E U yet, and who knows, perhaps we never will.
> 
> Brexit trade deal could take 10 years, says UK's ambassador - BBC News


Gibraltar depends on tourism and financial services as main source of employment and revenue.
Billions worth.
If tourists cannot come in..if we are unregulated territory for financial services we lose most employment ok?
Which makes our homes worthless and unsellable.
Spain is quick to say that they would close frontier. And ban our access into EU regulated territory.

We do not ask for handouts. Just to have our country viable for living.
Flag waving will not feed even a cat.


----------



## KittenKong

Aww... Didn't you feel sorry for Theresa Nomayts at the EU summit yesterday? The Sun suggested even those they call. "remoaners" would suggest this is wrong.

A complete load of ******** as you'd expect from that paper.

If I was part of the EU summit I would have gone one better by telling May, "On your bike".


----------



## cheekyscrip

To make you understand Gibraltar is in the same boat as the City.
Financial services make tonnes of money. And it is most ecofriendly business...hardly any pollution at all.

But it us also most portable.
Just office space and router somewhere else.

Whole England lives of the City...

Those are best consumers, clients and shoppers. Highest revenue.

If City shrinks...









They will not wait neither two years or ten years...

City was envy of so many countries...to have such strong financial sector...
Now Dublin, Malta, New York, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Singapore are aggressively targeting this sector offering dream opportunity so their people have the jobs and their governments have the revenue.


----------



## stuaz

The City is a big part of the UK economy, the Government will do whatever they can to keep it going with very little interruption. 

Companies just want some clarity over whats going to happen which presumably we will get in the new year when the government provide more information to parliament.

Most people are scared or unsure of the unknown so just need to be provided with more info to provide comfort


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> The City is a big part of the UK economy, the Government will do whatever they can to keep it going with very little interruption.
> 
> Companies just want some clarity over whats going to happen which presumably we will get in the new year when the government provide more information to parliament.
> 
> Most people are scared or unsure of the unknown so just need to be provided with more info to provide comfort


Very much so. Not that except occasional leak much is known.
Wish our financial centre was treated the same?
Not really. Nothing tangible. City also want to.know what The Plan is ...

So companies are preparing plan B...opening something somewhere with a view to expand as necessary...


----------



## Goblin

stuaz said:


> The City is a big part of the UK economy, the Government will do whatever they can to keep it going with very little interruption.


The Government cannot do that without tying in access to the EU single market and the regulatory system involved. Financial companies will be unable to perform some tasks without that. With the EU stating if the UK wants that access they need to continue free movement... The financial services cannot wait until negotiations are completed, they have to

Of course now there is talk about a potential "transitional deal" with the UK paying for access, opposed by Brexit Secretary David Davis. Didn't people vote to leave to stop paying into the system? So we pay and have no say. Is that taking back control?

While talking about this, it's probably worthwhile for everyone to look at :





No idea what the government will push for but at least people need to know what the single market is and why it's judged important by many people.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> The Government cannot do that without tying in access to the EU single market and the regulatory system involved. Financial companies will be unable to perform some tasks without that. With the EU stating if the UK wants that access they need to continue free movement... The financial services cannot wait until negotiations are completed, they have to
> 
> Of course now there is talk about a potential "transitional deal" with the UK paying for access, opposed by Brexit Secretary David Davis. Didn't people vote to leave to stop paying into the system? So we pay and have no say. Is that taking back control?
> 
> While talking about this, it's probably worthwhile for everyone to look at :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No idea what the government will push for but at least people need to know what the single market is and why it's judged important by many people.


Basically...City is the money maker not the sheep or cotton mills.
Which many cannot quite get. 
Many voted for Brexit expecting to be better off as they were promised by cynical demagogues.
They would get quite angry when find out not all glitter is gold.
They still might blame EU.
But they may turn on Tories...

If City cannot carry on then they will unplug and go somewhere else.
If they cannot carry on they have no choice!
That would mean recession big time.

So it will be hard to have cake and eat it.

City must get access to EU. Cost what EU wants. Oh and free movement.

Pity that our financial centre..one of the best ones in Europe cannot be given the same .
We need access to EU and free movement precisely for the same reason.
We are the City..just smaller.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Very much so. Not that except occasional leak much is known.
> Wish our financial centre was treated the same?
> Not really. Nothing tangible. City also want to.know what The Plan is ...
> 
> So companies are preparing plan B...opening something somewhere with a view to expand as necessary...


Nothing is written in stone at the moment Cheeky, so you never know, Gibraltar might get a good deal out of this whole situation too. It's the unknown now really, for both you, the rest of the UK and Europe too.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Nothing is written in stone at the moment Cheeky, so you never know, Gibraltar might get a good deal out of this whole situation too. It's the unknown now really, for both you, the rest of the UK and Europe too.


I so do hope so.
But then I look at that collection of Muppets.....


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> *Aww... Didn't you feel sorry for Theresa Nomayts at the EU summit yesterday?* The Sun suggested even those they call. "remoaners" would suggest this is wrong.
> 
> A complete load of ******** as you'd expect from that paper.
> 
> If I was part of the EU summit I would have gone one better by telling May, "On your bike".


Very painful to watch

Not


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> Nothing is written in stone at the moment Cheeky, so you never know, Gibraltar might get a good deal out of this whole situation too. It's the unknown now really, for both you, the rest of the UK and Europe too.


What we do know is we have nothing to negotiate with & EU leaders have made it clear we will get a hard brexit. In other words -

Brexit: voting to 'take back' what we had never lost, in order to lose everything we had. Utter madness.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Very painful to watch
> 
> Not


I should copy and paste this for the, "What made you smile today" thread!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I should copy and paste this for the, "What made you smile today" thread!


Do it!:Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

stuaz said:


> The City is a big part of the UK economy, the Government will do whatever they can to keep it going with very little interruption.
> 
> Companies just want some clarity over whats going to happen which presumably we will get in the new year when the government provide more information to parliament.
> 
> Most people are scared or unsure of the unknown so just need to be provided with more info to provide comfort


I hate to come across as a killjoy, but when the Government reveal their 'plan' the most we will find out is what they are going to ask for. We won't find out what is actually going to happen, since the other side of the coin is what the EU are prepared to offer / concede. In negotiations, neither side gets all that it wants.

Uncertainty will continue for some time yet.


----------



## stuaz

Arnie83 said:


> I hate to come across as a killjoy, but when the Government reveal their 'plan' the most we will find out is what they are going to ask for. We won't find out what is actually going to happen, since the other side of the coin is what the EU are prepared to offer / concede. In negotiations, neither side gets all that it wants.
> 
> Uncertainty will continue for some time yet.


Of course and the government won't reveal all because they can't but some more information given out will be better than none.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Very painful to watch
> 
> Not


Rather similar to Cameron when his handshake was apparently ignored by the French President after Cam vetoed an EU treaty change in 2011.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...zy-snubs-David-Cameron-swife-body-swerve.html


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Very painful to watch
> 
> Not
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKong said:
> 
> 
> 
> I should copy and paste this for the, "What made you smile today" thread!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I found it quite cringe-making and far from funny. For you or anyone else to gloat over someone's discomfiture is really neither pleasant nor commendable in my opinion. More like a school playground than a meeting of (supposedly) influential, responsible, intelligent and mature people
Click to expand...


----------



## KittenKong

Of course you're entitled to think that, but following the anti EU propaganda and the, "We're superior to you" attitude and the belief they would grovel to the UK it's not surprising. I thought May had a cheek to show her face quite frankly.

For arguments sake, do you think Arthur Scargill would've received a warm welcome had he shown his face at a Tory party conference during the height of the miners' strike? Exactly!

Respect works both ways. The UK chooses to leave the EU, they're not being expelled by them.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> I should copy and paste this for the, "What made you smile today" thread!


Seriously? Some bunch of bureaucrats ignoring our PM makes you smile? Watching someone else's discomfort makes you smile? Manners cost nothing and are always appropriate.


----------



## Zaros

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Manners cost nothing and are always appropriate.


Ultimately, and as often as not, manners can prove to be a socially sanctified and debilitating form of dishonesty. Manners are necessary and desirable. They are not the be all and end all.
Those who believe they are are being deceived into a system that, as much as anything else, makes social shame an instrument of class preservation.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> Ultimately, and as often as not, manners can prove to be a socially sanctified and debilitating form of dishonesty. Manners are necessary and desirable. They are not the be all and end all.
> Those who believe they are are being deceived into a system that, as much as anything else, makes social shame an instrument of class preservation.


Bear hugs and carp kisses you call manners?
Back slaps, high fives and all that are so un English?
Think EU leaders simply respected the cultural differences. In this case " splendid isolation" ?
How very considerate of them.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> Ultimately, and as often as not, manners can prove to be a socially sanctified and debilitating form of dishonesty. Manners are necessary and desirable. They are not the be all and end all.
> Those who believe they are are being deceived into a system that, as much as anything else, makes social shame an instrument of class preservation.


I can still see nothing to find amusing about the whole sorry saga


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I can still see nothing to find amusing about the whole sorry saga


Of course one wouldn't expect everyone to applaud this and can see where you're coming from.

After much patriotic anti EU talk from May and co perhaps she needed taking down a step or two. The EU used to be allies of the UK, now they are competitors. Does anyone think Alex Salmond would've been made welcome at the Houses of Parliament had he shown his face if he won the Scottish independence referendum?

You talk about bureaucrats. Many at the EU conference were elected politicians surely?

May was never elected PM (nor was Gordon Brown of course). She represents only the 52% of leave voters. She certainly doesn't speak for, nor represent me.


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Bear hugs and carp kisses you call manners?.


I certainly do not and despite what I had posted earlier I'm very aware of how to conduct myself correctly whilst in the company of others, be they other nationals or not, without appearing obsequious.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

KittenKong said:


> perhaps she needed taking down a step or two. .


Somehow I don't think just 11 seconds of film (edited) out of a whole meeting shows us very much to be honest...there are other clips of her chattering quite happily.

Will the other representatives be 'cold shouldering her'? Some will. But I suspect in many cases it is more a case of blaming the Brits in a kind of 'what have you started' ....for they too fear the populist votes ....even Merkel's party has lost seats to the AFD party.

J


----------



## KittenKong

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Somehow I don't think just 11 seconds of film (edited) out of a whole meeting shows us very much to be honest...there are other clips of her chattering quite happily.
> J


You're right of course. The media do have a habit of twisting things and making things out to be worse than they are.

Certainly the Brextremist press used the images to justify the UK leaving the EU. The usual one sided pap you'd expect from such papers.


----------



## kimthecat

Cam and May represented the UK as our Prime ministers , so while I understand the EU leaders were pretty angry , I don't think it was diplomatic to snub them .

The incident with Cam happened before we had the referendum . Cam was elected , he used his veto as our representative as he was entitled to do . Do you think it was ok for Sarkozy to snub and humilate our PM because he didn't like the way he voted ?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> .


I imagine she was invited...or do you think she gate-crashed?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Of course you're entitled to think that


We don't need you to tell us that.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Respect works both ways.


Most of us are well aware of that, we don't need your advice on that score..._but to whom has Mrs May NOT shown respect?_ Pray tell. I cannot think of anyone she has deliberately upset or insulted.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> I certainly do not and despite what I had posted earlier I'm very aware of how to conduct myself correctly whilst in the company of others, be they other nationals or not, without appearing obsequious.


Now I am lost. So you will not kiss hands? But what I am to do if I met you? Polish kiss, Latin double and triple kiss, French French kiss, Russians kiss and hug, Eskimo rub noses...
But what is the proper etiquette in Finland? I would not like to appear neither obsequious nor creepy?

But then noblesse oblige.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> Most of us are well aware of that, we don't need your advice on that score..._but to whom has Mrs May NOT shown respect?_ Pray tell. I cannot think of anyone she has deliberately upset or insulted.


Hmmm..EU maybe?


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Hmmm..EU maybe?


HMMM. How has TM shown a lack of respect to EU? She is merely complying with the results of a_ supposedly_ democratic referendum...UK voted OUT and she is hopefully guiding the UK out. As I recall, she herself was not particularly Brexit-orientated.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I


Calvine said:


> HMMM. How has TM shown a lack of respect to EU? She is merely complying with the results of a_ supposedly_ democratic referendum...UK voted OUT and she is hopefully guiding the UK out. As I recall, she herself was not particularly Brexit-orientated.


If British voted to be left out of it...logic?
Yes..it got a tad awkward with EU...but surely few seconds without attention is possible to endure?
Stiff upper lip and off we go...


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> I
> If British voted to be left out of it...logic?
> Yes..it got a tad awkward with EU...but surely few seconds without attention is possible to endure?
> Stiff upper lip and off we go...


You've lost me...sorry.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> You've lost me...sorry.


Assure you..you not the first...and not the last led astray by vagaries of my lateral tendencies.Call it collateral damage...
And anyhow to feel better our Maite got herself new trousers and how it ended?
And those were her own Tories-in- waiting!
I for one do not begrudge her a pair of new leather pants!
( maybe cos have something like that just fabric)..useful for dog walking..


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> pair of new leather pants


Heard something about the £995 trousers but not sure what the story was!!


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Now I am lost. So you will not kiss hands? But what I am to do if I met you? Polish kiss, Latin double and triple kiss, French French kiss, Russians kiss and hug, Eskimo rub noses...
> But what is the proper etiquette in Finland? I would not like to appear neither obsequious nor creepy?
> 
> But then noblesse oblige.


I would never consider myself a vulgarian, even though others might, but I really wouldn't know how to define properly 'Good Manners' or 'Etiquette', except to say, that I would have thought the simple gesture of a proffered hand in friendship might suffice to oil the social wheels and suppress conflict.

Russians I have either met or previously worked alongside of, were all quite happy and content with a firm handshake as were many Polish people. So too Serbians, Croats, Ukrainians, Estonians, Swedes, Romanians, and you can also add polite Finns to that list. :Writing


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Most of us are well aware of that, we don't need your advice on that score..._but to whom has Mrs May NOT shown respect?_ Pray tell. I cannot think of anyone she has deliberately upset or insulted.


Just look at her speech at the Tory Party conference. Brextremists and UKIP supporters' must've loved this. All the bull**** about British superiority at the conference, the desire to replace foreign born workers with "British" ones and the likes..... Not necessarily from May herself but from others in her party.....

I found much of it offensive personally and I'm and English born person. I don't consider the rest of Europe any better nor worse than the UK. I'm no Nationalist, this only causes division and in Germany's case in the 1930s war with other countries.

As for the comments re me saying people have the right to oppose. Well, actually what I'm saying is I respect others point of view and will not shout down those with an opposite viewpoint to myself unlike some I can mention.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> HMMM. How has TM shown a lack of respect to EU? She is merely complying with the results of a_ supposedly_ democratic referendum...UK voted OUT and she is hopefully guiding the UK out. As I recall, she herself was not particularly Brexit-orientated.


Simple, like 52% of those eligible to vote she's stuck two fingers up at former EU allies for over 40 years with land of hope and glory red white and blue Brexit bull**** proposals.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

*BREXIT AGAIN!







*


----------



## Goblin

As for May with a whole 11 seconds. Can people tell me that they've been to a party whatever and had the same where people were talking to old friends without saying hi? Seems she chatted fine later which indicates she wasn't snubbed and excluded deliberately. Been to enough company do's and symposiums to know it's not always meet and greet everyone who you hardly know to start with.



Calvine said:


> Most of us are well aware of that, we don't need your advice on that score..._but to whom has Mrs May NOT shown respect?_ Pray tell. I cannot think of anyone she has deliberately upset or insulted.


Try the majority of the UK who didn't vote for Brexit and also british nationals in the EU. These are people she has snubbed and told them their opinions are worthless. Try the EU nationals in the UK who she is using as pawns to bargain with. Foreign doctors and nurses are another group. Try those in the legal system and even parliament itself whom she has tried to run roughshod over.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I respect others point of view


That's good news...there are many posting here who don't.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Think every nation in Europe have those who think they are superior...
We listen and laugh..but our claims to superiority sound just as shallow to them.
The same mind set whichever flag they wave.

When you look at new Nazi they are all the same .


----------



## Goblin

There's a difference cheekyscrip between patriotism and nationalism. Too many of the so called "popularists" are nationalists, not patriots. Doesn't matter what country you are in for this to be the case and I fear nationalism is becoming far more common than patriotism.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well in Holland the PVV Party are steaming a head in the polls with less than 12 weeks to go until they go to the polls (15th March 2017) in there countries Elections.

Why this is so important is this, the Dutch will get a Referendum to leave the EU if Geert Wilders the PVV leader gets into power. The PVV now have the most seats in Parliament in Holland (check column dated 18-12-2016).










What this says to the voter in the street is this, if there was an election today in Holland the PVV would win. The ruling lefty VVD party are losing ground and support.

This would be a serious blow to the EU if the Dutch vote to leave the EU if they get there Referendum. Geert Wilders has made it one of his Election pledges that the Dutch get this Referendum which is spurring the Dutch to support him.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

Goblin said:


> There's a difference cheekyscrip between patriotism and nationalism. Too many of the so called "popularists" are nationalists, not patriots. Doesn't matter what country you are in for this to be the case and I fear nationalism is becoming far more common than patriotism.


Absolutely. And it's growing (or re-growing) amongst democratic countries. Which is an interesting social phenomenon .... and to an extent one that will have consequences ...what those consequences will be however, can only be surmised. And why there was a resurgence is something I have no doubt, history students of the future will ponder over ......

J


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Well in Holland the PVV Party are steaming a head in the polls with less than 12 weeks to go until they go to the polls (15th March 2017) in there countries Elections.


So is this an absolute majority? Don't know about the system, is it proportional representation?

My understanding is that the PVV is the only party to support changes in legislation to have a referendum. At the moment it's not possible. Without support from anyone else, the chances of a referendum is slim.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So is this an absolute majority? Don't know about the system, is it proportional representation?
> 
> My understanding is that the PVV is the only party to support changes in legislation to have a referendum. At the moment it's not possible. Without support from anyone else, the chances of a referendum is slim.


If the PVV get the majority (the last Government that got in was the VVD with a very slim majority). They are predicting that the PVV will get 46 seats in Parliament in Holland which is more than any other party holds and this is all they need. There are 150 seats in Parliament in Holland and the party with most seats wins and there are 14 political parties these seats are spread out to.

So why is it impossible for the PVV to change the legislation and have a Referendum called? The Dutch people seem to be happy to back this.

Scared of another country voting to leave?

I wouldn't dismiss anything because look what happened this year (2016):
- It was predicted the UK would never vote to leave the EU and we did.
- It was predicted Donald Trump would never get to become President of the USA and he is President Elect and set to become next president.

2017 could be a year that upsets the EU:
- Netherlands vote in the PVV and get a Nexit Referendum.
- France votes in Marine Le Penn and get a Frexit Referendum.
- Germany Votes in there Far Right party and kicks Merkel out of power and gets a Gerexit Referendum.

I wouldn't say no it wouldn't happen as it may well happen if this year is to go by.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> If the PVV get the majority (the last Government that got in was the VVD with a very slim majority). They are predicting that the PVV will get 46 seats in Parliament in Holland which is more than any other party holds and this is all they need. There are 150 seats in Parliament in Holland and the party with most seats wins and there are 14 political parties these seats are spread out to.
> 
> So why is it impossible for the PVV to change the legislation and have a Referendum called? The Dutch people seem to be happy to back this.
> 
> Scared of another country voting to leave?


Surely they'd have to get 76 seats to be able to change legislation without other parties support?


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Surely they'd have to get 76 seats to be able to change legislation without other parties support?


The VVD got 41 out of 150 seats in there last election in Holland (this is in the House of Representatives similar to our Houses of Commons) and only 89 out of 570 Provincial States. They only have 3 out of 26 seats in the EU Parliament and 13 out of 75 seats in the Dutch Senate. This was all that was needed to get into power in Holland.

The PVV currently have 36 seats out of 150 in the House of Representatives and are projecting to have 46 on election day. The VVD currently only have 23 seats out of 150.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> So why is it impossible for the PVV to change the legislation and have a Referendum called? The Dutch people seem to be happy to back this.


Doubt any party can change legislation without a majority vote. Called democracy.



> I wouldn't dismiss anything because look what happened this year (2016):
> - It was predicted the UK would never vote to leave the EU and we did.
> - It was predicted Donald Trump would never get to become President of the USA and he is President Elect and set to become next president.
> 
> 2017 could be a year that upsets the EU:
> - Netherlands vote in the PVV and get a Nexit Referendum.
> - France votes in Marine Le Penn and get a Frexit Referendum.
> - Germany Votes in there Far Right party and kicks Merkel out of power and gets a Gerexit Referendum.
> 
> I wouldn't so no it wouldn't happen as it may well happen if this year is to go by.


You could also have put Austria on that list.. oh wait, that didn't work out despite the propaganda beforehand. The FPÖ (far right) were leading in the polls there much like the PVV. Probably the reason they FPÖ lost at the end of the day was people rebelled against the idea.

Interesting that you push Trump as an example. People are watching his actions as president-elect as part of the popularist movement. So tell me, do you think they should be encouraged by what they are seeing? Tell me again, how many billionaires is he appointing to represent the common person?

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad that the best thing other countries could do would be to wait until the UK settles down and the impact of leaving is quantified. I appreciate we differ on opinion on the likely result.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> There's a difference cheekyscrip between patriotism and nationalism. Too many of the so called "popularists" are nationalists, not patriots. .


 That's a good point the difference between patriotism and nationalism . I made that mistake before .

Popularism seems the word to be bandied about now . The definitions on liner seem to vary slightly . I'm not even sure who its supposed to apply to. The Remainers or Brexiteers.


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> Popularism seems the word to be bandied about now . The definitions on liner seem to vary slightly . I'm not even sure who its supposed to apply to. The Remainers or Brexiteers.


For me it's the fact that people are voting anybody they can who has "popular" topics no matter how impractical or realistic they are. Trump and his wall, paid for by the mexico is a great example. Brexit and the 350million for the NHS another. To me they show contempt for the average person voting but then unfortunately they get the votes regardless. Until people who vote are prepared to look at the facts rather than a "celebrity" who says simply what they want to hear, popularism will continue to do well. All it's done where people have voted for it so far is to highlight and strengthen division.


----------



## cheekyscrip

And it all might end in a crash. No deal will spell the end of the City. Definitely the end of Gibraltar. Sort of EU legal civil war...























Silver lining is terrorists might not bother...that would be enough damage done by our own.

It is like run away train now ...


----------



## rona

http://www.comresglobal.com/polls/cnn-brexit-six-months-on-survey/

"If the EU Referendum were re-run today, the result would likely be the same - with 47% leave, 45% remain, and 8% undecided"


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> http://www.comresglobal.com/polls/cnn-brexit-six-months-on-survey/
> 
> "If the EU Referendum were re-run today, the result would likely be the same - with 47% leave, 45% remain, and 8% undecided"


A poll of how many, 2000 people? Would depend on where the people came from. Interesting the majority are not sure leaving benefits either the UK or themselves economically. So once again, why?

The "majority" is even less than the referendum according to that limited sample. How many people will not admit to others they got it wrong? You could also take the recent by-election as an indication as that's a far larger sample where the referendum result was a key election point. Highlights the trouble with figures, that by-election "poll" would be biased as that constituancy voted to remain in during the referendum.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> So once again, why


Something you will never understand. You've made that clear

Our own little poll has gone up by two


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Something you will never understand. You've made that clear


Maybe that's as I've not received any answers to that supposedly simple question based on reality and facts.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Maybe that's as I've not received any answers to that supposedly simple question based on reality and facts.


That just proves that you will never understand. It's like saying everything has only a monetary value or everything has only one value. My reality is far far removed from yours


----------



## KittenKong

A certain newspaper with a three letter word now claims Brexit will save lives! All these ridiculous claims such as Bojo and Grove WILL deliver on their referendum promises to their readers.

It's certainly a change from the daily anti Corbyn propaganda.

The Daily Brexcess claimed of a Brexit Christmas shopping boost yesterday.

Some people really do believe in what they read!


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> A certain newspaper with a three letter word now claims Brexit will save lives! All these ridiculous claims such as Bojo and Grove WILL deliver on their referendum promises to their readers.
> 
> It's certainly a change from the daily anti Corbyn propaganda.
> 
> The Daily Brexcess claimed of a Brexit Christmas shopping boost yesterday.
> 
> Some people really do believe in what they read!


And yet the remainders are perfectly happy to believe any article that states x bad thing happened because of Brexit. You can't have it both ways


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> The Daily Brexcess claimed of a Brexit Christmas shopping boost yesterday.
> all the bad thins
> Some people really do believe in what they read!


Brexit fuels shopping: Britain prepares for record Christmas spending | UK | News | Daily Express

Are you saying we should only believe all what the remainers say.?
Personally I choose to make my own decission what I believe, not what the papers say.


----------



## 1290423

Nothing's changed and I'm still out, and for the record I've spent much more then I normally spend, and that's not down to inflation either. I've just pushed the boat out further then normal.


----------



## Honeys mum

DT said:


> Nothing's changed and I'm still out, and for the record I've spent much more then I normally spend, and that's not down to inflation either. I've just pushed the boat out further then normal.


Same here DT.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Nothing's changed and I'm still out, and for the record I've spent much more then I normally spend, and that's not down to inflation either. I've just pushed the boat out further then normal.


Same here @DT and @Honeys mum

Nothing will change my mind on voting leave.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Same here @DT and @Honeys mum
> 
> Nothing will change my mind on voting leave.


Actually several people I have spoken too, members of my family even, whom were all strong remainers have now said that they are actually happy with the result, these are people whom did actually bother to get out to vote, and certainly two of the family members are far far more educated then myself,. The only person really who is still strongly for remain is my 17 year old granddaughter.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> And yet the remainders are perfectly happy to believe any article that states x bad thing happened because of Brexit. You can't have it both ways





Honeys mum said:


> Brexit fuels shopping: Britain prepares for record Christmas spending | UK | News | Daily Express
> 
> Are you saying we should only believe all what the remainers say.?
> Personally I choose to make my own decission what I believe, not what the papers say.


.

How about listening to what experts say? You can spend money on the NHS. You can spend it on car manufacturers. You can't do both. And when the NHS is only available to those who can afford for their own health care, the government will simply say its what you voted for. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-20/brexit-bulletin-how-to-negotiate


----------



## 1290423

Hey ho noush
You still remaining then, irrespective of how hard I twist you arm, tickle you and make you laugh
I'm gutted, truly gutted, my charms are failing


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> .
> 
> How about listening to what experts say? You can spend money on the NHS. You can spend it on car manufacturers. You can't do both. And when the NHS is only available to those who can afford for their own health care, the government will simply say its what you voted for. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-20/brexit-bulletin-how-to-negotiate
> 
> View attachment 294268


Who needs expert opinion when it is available for free under the freedom of information act. The NHS has outstanding debts from foreigners coming to the UK to try and get free treatment but ended up getting charged the amount outstanding is £30 million in just one year. It's called health tourism. Why aren't the NHS chasing these people as this £30 million will help sure up part of the financial black hole the NHS has?

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ients-health-tourism-30-million-a7485226.html

Why don't the NHS charge such people like other European countries do at the nurses station or reception desk when those not entitled to free treatment go to leave the ward/hospital they are on/in?

*Overseas patients leave NHS bill of almost £30 million in one year*

Overseas patients have left the NHS with unpaid bill of almost £30 million in just one year, an investigation has found.

Patients who were not entitled to free treatment on the health service owed £29,530,378 in 2015/16, according to data obtained by the Press Association under the Freedom of Information Act.

More than 120 NHS trusts were asked to provide details on overseas patients who were billed for NHS care and who were exempt from reciprocal arrangements with the UK.


----------



## noushka05

I save my sympathy for the countless lives the PM is destroying with her inhumane policies. Almost 11,000 innocent badger lives cruelly snuffed out for purely political reasons. Her aiding & abetting of war crimes in the Yemen. Have you seen the suffering there? Poverty regressing to Dickensian levels here! What a disgraceful excuse for a human being she is.

This is how she speaks to her constituents who ask her simple questions - This is what you call RUDE. http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...xit_with_prime_minister_theresa_may_1_4807899


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> If you want expert opinion on the NHS here goes. The NHS has outstanding debts from foreigners coming to the UK to try and get free treatment but ended up getting charged the amount outstanding is £30 million in just one year. It's called health tourism. Why aren't the NHS chasing these people as this £30 million will help sure up part of the financial black hole the NHS has?
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ients-health-tourism-30-million-a7485226.html
> 
> Why don't the NHS charge such people like other European countries do at the nurses station or reception desk when those not entitled to free treatment go to leave the ward/hospital they are on/in?


Sorry mate, was putting a witty reply then changed my mind lil xxxx


noushka05 said:


> I save my sympathy for the countless lives the PM is destroying with her inhumane policies. Almost 11,000 innocent badger lives cruelly snuffed out for purely political reasons. Her aiding & abetting of war crimes in the Yemen. Have you seen the suffering there? Poverty regressing to Dickensian levels here! What a disgraceful excuse for a human being she is.
> 
> This is how she speaks to her constituents who ask her simple questions - This is what you call RUDE. http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...xit_with_prime_minister_theresa_may_1_4807899
> 
> View attachment 294269


In all fairness noush, why should the woman even have been granted 15 minutes to discuss the policy,. If everyone who voted remain were granted 15 mins We'd be well and truly knackered.


----------



## ronster6969

Definitely in!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> If you want expert opinion on the NHS here goes. The NHS has outstanding debts from foreigners coming to the UK to try and get free treatment but ended up getting charged the amount outstanding is £30 million in just one year. It's called health tourism. Why aren't the NHS chasing these people as this £30 million will help sure up part of the financial black hole the NHS has?
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ients-health-tourism-30-million-a7485226.html
> 
> Why don't the NHS charge such people like other European countries do at the nurses station or reception desk when those not entitled to free treatment go to leave the ward/hospital they are on/in?
> 
> *Overseas patients leave NHS bill of almost £30 million in one year*
> 
> Overseas patients have left the NHS with unpaid bill of almost £30 million in just one year, an investigation has found.
> 
> Patients who were not entitled to free treatment on the health service owed £29,530,378 in 2015/16, according to data obtained by the Press Association under the Freedom of Information Act.
> 
> More than 120 NHS trusts were asked to provide details on overseas patients who were billed for NHS care and who were exempt from reciprocal arrangements with the UK.


Rather then scapegoating, why don't you look at what you are quoting in context? Health tourism accounts for about 0.05% of NHS budget!. The real reason the NHS is in crisis isn't because of those damn foreigners it is because the government is cutting the NHS to the bone. In case you hadn't noticed they are privatising it by stealth.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Rather then scapegoating, why don't you look at what you are quoting in context? Health tourism accounts for about 0.05% of NHS budget!. The real reason the NHS is in crisis isn't because of those damn foreigners it is because the government is cutting the NHS to the bone. In case you hadn't noticed they are privatising it by stealth.


The Government are paying in billions more to the NHS by the end of the current Governments term so how is that scapegoating?

I'll let you rant on because it is falling on deaf ears on my part.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The markets look very good this morning for the UK


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> Brexit fuels shopping: Britain prepares for record Christmas spending | UK | News | Daily Express
> 
> Are you saying we should only believe all what the remainers say.?
> Personally I choose to make my own decission what I believe, not what the papers say.


It's up to the individual who they choose to believe. Many do actually believe in "The Sun". Someone I know treats the paper as pure fact actually.

Had "The Sun" backed remain do you really think Leave would've won?!

Like some others I was and am 100% behind the EU and proud of the UK being part of it whatever the remain campaign say or said. I'm sure it'll be vice versa for many leave voters.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I save my sympathy for the countless lives the PM is destroying with her inhumane policies. Almost 11,000 innocent badger lives cruelly snuffed out for purely political reasons. Her aiding & abetting of war crimes in the Yemen. Have you seen the suffering there? Poverty regressing to Dickensian levels here! What a disgraceful excuse for a human being she is.
> 
> This is how she speaks to her constituents who ask her simple questions - This is what you call RUDE. http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...xit_with_prime_minister_theresa_may_1_4807899
> 
> View attachment 294269


Gosh, that's no surprise. Reminds me of Thatcher losing her cool on being challenged over the sinking of the Belgrano by a viewer live on "Nationwide". It survives in the archives. Yes it is on You tube.






Just goes to show May is no different to Thatcher.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> *Overseas patients leave NHS bill of almost £30 million in one year*


Find it funny that you feel the need to highlight this as if it's a major point. Yes the NHS needs to chase this money up. Point is 30million per year is almost a rounding error in the overall scheme of things. Makes great propaganda fuelling nationalism and blaming those pesky foreigners which is why it's constantly highlighted. Says a lot about the people originally pushing it doesn't it and their reasoning.

I'll not dwell on that side but let's out the amount in perspective, Leave campaign was promising 350million a week being added to the budget. That's 4200million per year. You're pushing a mere 30.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Find it funny that you feel the need to highlight this as if it's a major point. Yes the NHS needs to chase this money up. Point is 30million per year is almost a rounding error in the overall scheme of things. Makes great propaganda fuelling nationalism and blaming those pesky foreigners which is why it's constantly highlighted. Says a lot about the people originally pushing it doesn't it and their reasoning.
> 
> I'll not dwell on that side but let's out the amount in perspective, Leave campaign was promising 350million a week being added to the budget. That's 4200million per year. You're pushing a mere 30.


The point is the NHS is in crisis, it's no wonder when they can't even get those that aren't entitled to NHS treatment to pay for it in the first place. If perhaps they didn't let those that don't pay get away with it then they wouldn't be in such a financial crisis (this is directed at those that aren't entitled to free treatment).

You wouldn't dwell on the NHS issue anyway as you don't use the NHS as you aren't even in the UK.

If £30 million is lost in one year it doesn't take long for the amount the NHS has in debt to mount up especially when people come over here to use the NHS to mount up debt and then go back to there own country with no intention of paying.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> I'll not dwell on that side but let's out the amount in perspective, Leave campaign was promising 350million a week being added to the budget. That's 4200million per year. You're pushing a mere 30.


Too damd right we should! There is a saying, look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves, why should they be allowed to get away with it? A better idea would maybe to bill their country of origin, maybe they would recoup the debt better then we do.

And for your information in 2014 over a quarter of live births in the uk , 27% actually were to mothers born outside the uk, how much did that lot cost then? And how much are they likely to cost in the next eighty or so years? Ok I accept that some of those mothers may be entitled, but highly unlikely that many of them have contributed much, if anything into the system by was of national insurance, a child's like a dog you know, it's not just for Christmas so whilst you are playing with your figures, quoting Stockwell and trying to bambozzle us work out what just one of those children cost to raise to the age of 18 .


----------



## stockwellcat.

If the NHS had chip and pin machines installed in the hospitals they could charge the patients that come to the UK as health tourists and not entitled to free treatment before they leave the hospital or GP surgery, like you have to in Holland, Spain, France etc, etc. Plus if you don't have an NHS card or NHS number you should be charged for treatment at source not via invoice in the post, this will then stop people from getting away with not paying for treatment and rigging up debt with the NHS. The £30 million was an example by the journalist that done the story of a catelogue of failures within the NHS that has contributed to the massive debt they are in. You then moan that the Government are making cuts in the NHS and off loading certain treatments to the GP from hospitals, well if people paid for the treatment they aren't entitled to for free then the NHS wouldn't have such a large amount of debt.

Another example of wasted money in the NHS is missed appointments, my local hospital now texts you to remind you to attend appointments and tells you how much that appointment costs the NHS. If you miss appointments I think you should pay for that missed appointment before being offered another one for free unless there is good reason why you missed the appointment in the first place. That isn't privatising the NHS.

You don't need so called experts to point you to the information that is available for free under the freedom of information act.


----------



## kimthecat

Do we actually know how much will be added to the NHS budget yet ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Do we actually know how much will be added to the NHS budget yet ?


I think TM said £10 billion in PMQs recently and JC asked her to re-look at the figures again. Let's see if this is mentioned at PMQs today. The figure that is floating around on various sites is £10 billion which is over the amount the NHS have requested during this Governments term.

https://fullfact.org/health/governments-10-billion-nhs-funding-commitment-what-nhs-leaders-asked/


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Had "The Sun" backed remain do you really think Leave would've won?!


I wouldn't know the answer to that, as I know nothing about the Sun newspaper, have never read it and have no wish to thankyou.


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat Apparently JC did well at the last PMQ. he seems to be getting the hang of it now ! 
Waste is waste , no matter what the reason , whther it is wasted on a new computer system or health tourists and they should crack down on it .


----------



## stockwellcat.

The NHS should then look at chasing the debt they have from health tourists and missed appointments and they wouldn't need so much money from the Government.

Here is an example of how much my local hospital get charged for appointments. A standard follow up appointment costs £160 excluding vat. I would expect that instead of just texting me the amount it costs the NHS that if I miss this appointment I would be charged for it before getting another appointment for free from my consultant. This isn't the case though, so what's the point of telling me how much it costs the NHS via text if it isn't going to be followed up on. I didn't miss this appointment I am using it as an example to make a point of where there are failures in the NHS and why they are in debt.


----------



## kimthecat

I also think the ambulance service should charge drunk people for their service too. They waste so much time on party goers at the weekends and at Christmas etc.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I also think the ambulance service should charge drunk people for their service too. They waste so much time on party goers at the weekends and at Christmas etc.


Perhaps adverts similar to this should be available at parties in bars, clubs and at telephone boxes and on advertising boards:


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I also think the ambulance service should charge drunk people for their service too. They waste so much time on party goers at the weekends and at Christmas etc.


Very understandable but be careful what you wish for. Drunks as above at first, then smokers and people above a particular BMI before being extended to every UK citizen regardless!


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> That just proves that you will never understand. It's like saying everything has only a monetary value or everything has only one value. My reality is far far removed from yours


You are right. I'm looking at facts not prejudice. You have failed to provide anything credible to support your viewpoint. Doesn't make your point inconsequential. Actually says a lot about the referendum and the result.



stockwellcat said:


> The point is the NHS is in crisis, it's no wonder when they can't even get those that aren't entitled to NHS treatment to pay for it in the first place. If perhaps they didn't let those that don't pay get away with it then they wouldn't be in such a financial crisis (this is directed at those that aren't entitled to free treatment).


So, how about this then:
http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/14974754.SWAH_doctor_search_goes_all_the_way_to_India/

Okay, not mainland UK but the same problem exists. Key point:


> In the latest Financial Report to the Western Trust Board, Acute Services recorded an overspend of £2.224 million. Medical overspends were mainly due to a reliance on medical agency cover as a result of vacancies or rota cover in SWAH.


So what is their solution.. look at bringing in immigrants. Quite telling when many people are pushing the anti immigrant and anti foreigner agenda with it's all the foreigner's fault.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You are right. I'm looking at facts not prejudice. You have failed to provide anything credible to support your viewpoint. Doesn't make your point not
> 
> So, how about this then:
> http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/14974754.SWAH_doctor_search_goes_all_the_way_to_India/
> 
> Okay, not mainland UK but the same problem exists. Key point:
> 
> So what is their solution.. look at bringing in immigrants. Quite telling when many people are pushing the anti immigrant and anti foreigner agenda with it's all the foreigner's fault.


I was pointing out one of the issues surrounding the NHS crisis and no one said it was just a problem caused by foreigner's although health tourism is one of the problems so does include foreigner's using the NHS and not paying and then going back to there own country knowing they ripped the NHS off because they weren't entitled to free NHS treatment in the first place I know there are other issues like under staffing etc.

I feel you like blaming the UK for its own NHS problems and sticking up for those that come over here and rip the NHS off through health tourism. I was pointing out that to stop this the NHS should charge those not entitled to free treatment before they leave the GP or Hospital by getting them to pay by cash or credit or debit card instead of the NHS paying a fortune in chasing debts that won't get paid leaving a black hole in the NHS's finances. 1) It will save the NHS money and 2) will clamp down on those that do come over here (the UK) and have no intention of paying for there medical treatment. The whole of the NHS needs reforming and clamped down on, I am not saying privatise it.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Very understandable but be careful what you wish for. Drunks as above at first, then smokers and people above a particular BMI before being extended to every UK citizen regardless!


 I see your point , I really meant social binge drinkers should pay . Alcoholism is an addiction and causes suffering to not only the alcoholic but their families too.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I feel you like blaming the UK for its own NHS problems and sticking up for those that come over here and rip the NHS off through health tourism.


I am blaming the UK for the problems of the NHS. Everyone should hold the government accountable rather than scapegoating a minority. Get all the money back from these foreigners "ripping off the NHS" and you wouldn't solve anything.

As for sticking up for those who "come over here and rip the NHS off", you obviously don't read what I said. I said the NHS needs to get the money back. Overall it is a minor expense for the NHS but for some reason you are focussed on it. I would guess as it's been used as propaganda by the leave campaign. Just to let you know, I have experience of being a EU foreigner ripping the NHS off when my daughter had to see a doctor in the UK. Forms were filled in including our insurance details here in Germany before we could see our "family" doctor. Doctor was seen, "infection" was the diagnosis, they'll get better. So we went back to Germany early and booked an immediate appointment with a doctor on a Sunday. A doctor specialising in children which isn't uncommon here. He took less that a couple of minutes to recognise the precise infection and recommend treatment. UK NHS billed the German insurance for the UK visit. Plenty of problems by the way in the German health service, it's also far from perfect.

So leave campaigners are pushing foreigners as the cause of problems when the problem is far closer to home. Government mismanagement in the long term, not exclusively Tory or Labour either. Instead it's blame those pesky foreigners for the problems along with the EU as that way we get what we want. It's a common methodology to divert attention and history has shown it's failures. You think leaving the EU will solve problems we ourselves have created? How exactly does scapegoating foreigners improve the UK?


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> I also think the ambulance service should charge drunk people for their service too. They waste so much time on party goers at the weekends and at Christmas etc.


An old flatmate of mine is a doctor, and he told me that every drunk who comes in after banging their head has to have an MRI, which is eyewateringly expensive


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> I am blaming the UK for the problems of the NHS. Everyone should hold the government accountable rather than scapegoating a minority. Get all the money back from these foreigners "ripping off the NHS" and you wouldn't solve anything.
> 
> UK?


Excuse me! But may I remind you there are cities in the UK where the Englishman is a now a minority, London, Luton, Bradford, closely followed by Leicester, and I won't even mention Boston ! But as you rightly say, we should hold our government responsible! For allowing it!


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> An old flatmate of mine is a doctor, and he told me that every drunk who comes in after banging their head has to have an MRI, which is eyewateringly expensive


Drunks should be changed agree 100%.
But where do you draw that proverbial line?
Smokers, drug addicts, fat people, sportsmen, careless drivers?


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> I am blaming the UK for the problems of the NHS. Everyone should hold the government accountable rather than scapegoating a minority. Get all the money back from these foreigners "ripping off the NHS" and you wouldn't solve anything.
> 
> As for sticking up for those who "come over here and rip the NHS off", you obviously don't read what I said. I said the NHS needs to get the money back. Overall it is a minor expense for the NHS but for some reason you are focussed on it. I would guess as it's been used as propaganda by the leave campaign. Just to let you know, I have experience of being a EU foreigner ripping the NHS off when my daughter had to see a doctor in the UK. Forms were filled in including our insurance details here in Germany before we could see our "family" doctor. Doctor was seen, "infection" was the diagnosis, they'll get better. So we went back to Germany early and booked an immediate appointment with a doctor on a Sunday. A doctor specialising in children which isn't uncommon here. He took less that a couple of minutes to recognise the precise infection and recommend treatment. UK NHS billed the German insurance for the UK visit. Plenty of problems by the way in the German health service, it's also far from perfect.
> 
> So leave campaigners are pushing foreigners as the cause of problems when the problem is far closer to home. Government mismanagement in the long term, not exclusively Tory or Labour either. Instead it's blame those pesky foreigners for the problems along with the EU as that way we get what we want. It's a common methodology to divert attention and history has shown it's failures. You think leaving the EU will solve problems we ourselves have created? How exactly does scapegoating foreigners improve the UK?


My daughter once said to me, and this makes a lot of sense, it's not unlike what you are saying!

Mum, you cannot blame the people, if it's there and available you cannot blame the people for using it, blame the government.

Well many of us are, but too many luvvies are quick to jump up and down waving their knickers in the air!


----------



## MilleD

Naughty Deloitte.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38390147


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> You think leaving the EU will solve problems we ourselves have created? How exactly does scapegoating foreigners improve the UK?


And who will they blame once there's no EU membership nor immigration? Oh yes, people who rely on social care. Many struggling families are facing Council Tax increases to assist with funding this.

They'll argue, "Don't blame us, Blame the ageing population".

They'll always find something or someone to blame, except for themselves.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> And who will they blame once there's no EU membership to blame nor immigration? Oh yes, people who rely on social care. Many struggling families are facing Council Tax increases to assist with funding this.
> 
> They'll argue, "Don't blame us, Blame the ageing population".
> 
> They'll always find something or someone to blame, except for themselves.


Well at least the aging population have prepaid for their care, they didnt ive on subsidies and top ups, if they didn't work they didn't get and it was down to the family to support them!


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Excuse me! But may I remind you there are cities in the UK where the Englishman is a now a minority, London, Luton, Bradford, closely followed by Leicester, and I won't even mention Boston ! But as you rightly say, we should hold our government responsible! For allowing it!


I suppose you can trace your family line back to the beaker people and before. The British have always been a race of immigrants. I also notice you use Englishman.. does that mean you also include Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish as foreigners now? Define an "Englishman". Yet again you push that foreigners are the problem with the declation previously of I'm not racist but...



DT said:


> Well at least the aging population have prepaid for their care, they didnt ive on subsidies and top ups, if they didn't work they didn't get and it was down to the family to support them!


Not according to many unfortunately. http://www.theargus.co.uk/opinion/letters/11751379.Don_t_blame_pensioners_for_NHS_problems/ Pensioners have paid into the system for decades. They have a right to the decent treatment they have been promised but playing the blame game is already past simply foreigners.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> I suppose you can trace your family line back to the beaker people and before. The British have always been a race of immigrants. I also notice you use Englishman.. does that mean you also include Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish as foreigners now? Define an "Englishman". Yet again you push that foreigners are the problem with the declation previously of I'm not racist but...
> 
> Not according to many unfortunately. http://www.theargus.co.uk/opinion/letters/11751379.Don_t_blame_pensioners_for_NHS_problems/ Pensioners have paid into the system for decades. They have a right to the decent treatment they have been promised but playing the blame game is already past simply foreigners.


Let's twist again, like we did last summer, you know damd well what I mean

I. Call me what you like, if it makes you happy I can live with being called a racist!

2. They havnt paid for decades? So they started work at 14 and worked until they were 65 (men) in much harsher conditions to what we have now, they worked longer hours , often in dangerous environments many working 7 days a week to supply for their families, they couldn't afford to take time off when they were sick and throwing a pretend sicky due to too much pop had never even been invented many dropped dead before they even got to draw their pension! Isn't nigh on fifty years long enough?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I am blaming the UK for the problems of the NHS. Everyone should hold the government accountable rather than scapegoating a minority. Get all the money back from these foreigners "ripping off the NHS" and you wouldn't solve anything.
> 
> As for sticking up for those who "come over here and rip the NHS off", you obviously don't read what I said. I said the NHS needs to get the money back. Overall it is a minor expense for the NHS but for some reason you are focussed on it. I would guess as it's been used as propaganda by the leave campaign. Just to let you know, I have experience of being a EU foreigner ripping the NHS off when my daughter had to see a doctor in the UK. Forms were filled in including our insurance details here in Germany before we could see our "family" doctor. Doctor was seen, "infection" was the diagnosis, they'll get better. So we went back to Germany early and booked an immediate appointment with a doctor on a Sunday. A doctor specialising in children which isn't uncommon here. He took less that a couple of minutes to recognise the precise infection and recommend treatment. UK NHS billed the German insurance for the UK visit. Plenty of problems by the way in the German health service, it's also far from perfect.
> 
> So leave campaigners are pushing foreigners as the cause of problems when the problem is far closer to home. Government mismanagement in the long term, not exclusively Tory or Labour either. Instead it's blame those pesky foreigners for the problems along with the EU as that way we get what we want. It's a common methodology to divert attention and history has shown it's failures. You think leaving the EU will solve problems we ourselves have created? How exactly does scapegoating foreigners improve the UK?


No I am not pushing the foreigner issue but yet again you are trying to defend something you know absolutely nothing about.

Fact 1 you don't live in the UK and haven't done for a number of years (over a decade).
Fact 2 things have changed in the UK since you did last lived here but you don't buy that at all.
Fact 3 I am not scapegoating the Government as yes you are right they need to be held to account.
Fact 4 There are areas of the UK where people born in the UK are the minority even in little towns where my dad lives in Lancashire and including the big cities like London, Birmingham, Leeds etc.
Fact 5 The attitude of those that have migrated to the UK over the last 10 years stinks the majority are very rude and arrogant.
Fact 6 People that have migrated to the UK find any excuse to call people racist even when they aren't being racist just to cause trouble. Example an old lady fell backwards onto a black lady on the bus I was on and the old lady was called racist because she lost her balance and fell backwards - see how people use the word racist so loosely in the UK to cause trouble.

So we welcome foreigner's/migrants with open arms to be treated like something stuck on the bottom of their shoe and so they are allowed to cause trouble?

Well excuse me for defending the UK the place I was born in.

You don't see all the problems we encounter every day but are yet very quick off the mark thinking you are right all the time when you don't even live over here.

That's me finished with you tonight @Goblin


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> No I am not pushing the foreigner issue but yet again you are trying to defend something you know absolutely nothing about.
> 
> Fact 1 you don't live in the UK and haven't done for a number of years (over a decade).
> Fact 2 things have changed in the UK since you did last lived here but you don't buy that at all.
> Fact 3 I am not scapegoating the Government as yes you are right they need to be held to account.
> Fact 4 There are areas of the UK where people born in the UK are the minority even in little towns where my dad lives in Lancashire and including the big cities like London, Birmingham, Leeds etc.
> Fact 5 The attitude of those that have migrated to the UK over the last 10 years stinks the majority are very rude and arrogant.
> Fact 6 People that have migrated to the UK find any excuse to call people racist even when they aren't being racist just to cause trouble. Example an old lady fell backwards onto a black lady on the bus I was on and the old lady was called racist because she lost her balance and fell backwards - see how people use the word racist so loosely in the UK to cause trouble.
> 
> So we welcome foreigner's/migrants with open arms to be treated like something stuck on the bottom of their shoe and so they are allowed to cause trouble?
> 
> Well excuse me for defending the UK the place I was born in.
> 
> You don't see all the problems we encounter every day but are yet very quick off the mark thinking you are right all the time when you don't even live over here.
> 
> That's me finished with you tonight @Goblin


Me too! Never put anyone on ignore here yet, but sure as hell think it's time I did before I end up getting banned again!


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> I suppose you can trace your family line back to the beaker people and before. The British have always been a race of immigrants. I also notice you use Englishman.. does that mean you also include Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish as foreigners now? Define an "Englishman". Yet again you push that foreigners are the problem with the declation previously of I'm not racist but...
> 
> Not according to many unfortunately. http://www.theargus.co.uk/opinion/letters/11751379.Don_t_blame_pensioners_for_NHS_problems/ Pensioners have paid into the system for decades. They have a right to the decent treatment they have been promised but playing the blame game is already past simply foreigners.


Oh, and forgot to mention. My elderly aunt, she's 88 still pays £380 a month tax, albeit she doesn't pay NI now, and her government pension is peanuts, albeit she does have a supurb private pension. She's never had children, has had nothing in the way of benefit ever, pays for a private cleaner and taxis! When and if the day ever comes that she has to rely on the government for care of her all I say is you bloody earned it!

My own partner, 68 Years old, never had a penny off the government either just returned from work, pays tax on every penny he earns due to him pension being over the tax allowance, he too is now exempt from from NI he pays dental, fortunately is healthty and was until recently with bupa so again cost the government nothing! But when ever the day comes that the government have to pay towards him, I'll say again, get what you can you deserve it!

So to anyone who says the elderly are costing to much I'll say they are getting what they deserve!
I'd prefer to say bollocks really but reckon I'd get reported:Hungry


----------



## KittenKong

DT said:


> Well at least the aging population have prepaid for their care, they didnt ive on subsidies and top ups, if they didn't work they didn't get and it was down to the family to support them!


You are absolutely right. The government want to use older people and the disabled as the next excuse for raising Council Tax costs for those already struggling to pay it.

I couldn't agree more with you when you say older people have paid into the system.

How dare this rotten government show disrespect to our elders in this manner by making them scapegoats for a rise in Council tax.

It's clear what their message is, don't blame us, blame the elderly and disabled.

Disgusting.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> It's clear what their message is, don't blame us, blame the elderly and disabled.
> 
> Disgusting.


Yes KittenKong, its the same excuse they use regarding the state the NHS is in.
They say its because people are living longer, and taking up bed space in the hospitals.
Yes it is disgusting, on both counts.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> I suppose you can trace your family line back to the beaker people and before. The British have always been a race of immigrants. I also notice you use Englishman.. does that mean you also include Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish as foreigners now? Define an "Englishman".


Define a Scotsman , a Welshman and an Irish man . 
Actually that's sexist , what about the women !

some jokes
http://www.rampantscotland.com/humour/blhumeng.htm
An Englishman entered a bar and stood beside a Scotsman. After they had chatted for a while the Scot asked _"Where are you from?"_ The Englishman replied _"I'm from the finest country in the world."_ The Scot looked sceptical and replied _"Are you? You have a damn funny accent for a Scotsman." _


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> I wouldn't know the answer to that, as I know nothing about the Sun newspaper, have never read it and have no wish to thankyou.


Oh I can help with the sun. Linda lucidi and Sam fox used to pose on page three, thinks that's where they got famous, and the crosswords dead easy


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> Naughty Deloitte.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38390147


Very. They are truly sorry about the leak. And the plan. Or lack of it. Hope it did not leak on TM's new trousers.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> No I am not pushing the foreigner issue but yet again you are trying to defend something you know absolutely nothing about.
> 
> Fact 1 you don't live in the UK and haven't done for a number of years (over a decade).
> Fact 2 things have changed in the UK since you did last lived here but you don't buy that at all.
> Fact 3 I am not scapegoating the Government as yes you are right they need to be held to account.
> Fact 4 There are areas of the UK where people born in the UK are the minority even in little towns where my dad lives in Lancashire and including the big cities like London, Birmingham, Leeds etc.
> Fact 5 The attitude of those that have migrated to the UK over the last 10 years stinks the majority are very rude and arrogant.
> Fact 6 People that have migrated to the UK find any excuse to call people racist even when they aren't being racist just to cause trouble. Example an old lady fell backwards onto a black lady on the bus I was on and the old lady was called racist because she lost her balance and fell backwards - see how people use the word racist so loosely in the UK to cause trouble.
> 
> So we welcome foreigner's/migrants with open arms to be treated like something stuck on the bottom of their shoe and so they are allowed to cause trouble?
> 
> Well excuse me for defending the UK the place I was born in.
> 
> You don't see all the problems we encounter every day but are yet very quick off the mark thinking you are right all the time when you don't even live over here.
> 
> That's me finished with you tonight @Goblin


And do not live in Gibraltar and have quite
a lot to say?

And about USA. And Germany.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> And do not live in Gibraltar and have quite
> a lot to say?


My block list is growing :Stop
Merry Christmas to you and bye.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Very understandable but be careful what you wish for. Drunks as above at first, then smokers and people above a particular BMI before being extended to every UK citizen regardless!


And the sooner the better. Free stuff gets wasted; water, shopping bags, medical services, you name it. Solution is easy. Simple economics, doesn't take a genius to grasp.

One way forward is to get out of the EU, do a trade deal with USA and the American healthco's take over the running of our NHS. Another reason to be grateful for the Donald.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> And do not live in Gibraltar and have quite
> a lot to say?
> 
> And about USA. And Germany.


And what about me?
I live in lalaland and I have plenty to say


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> And the sooner the better. Free stuff gets wasted; water, shopping bags, medical services, you name it. Solution is easy. Simple economics, doesn't take a genius to grasp.
> 
> One way forward is to get out of the EU, do a trade deal with USA and the American healthco's take over the running of our NHS. Another reason to be grateful for the Donald.


I to can't wait until we are out of the EU.
Don't forget a trade deal with Australia as well


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> And the sooner the better. Free stuff gets wasted; water, shopping bags, medical services, you name it. Solution is easy. Simple economics, doesn't take a genius to grasp.
> 
> One way forward is to get out of the EU, do a trade deal with USA and the American healthco's take over the running of our NHS. Another reason to be grateful for the Donald.


Is it sad that you make me laugh?
Gallows humour.


----------



## 1290423

I can't remember when we were taken into the eu. Rightly or wrongly, there being a todo like this!


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Is it sad that you make me laugh?
> Gallows humour.


Oh, a job opening for me. I can handle a lever


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> And what about me?
> I live in lalaland and I have plenty to say


That is the pont! Stockwellcat reckons Goblin lives out of UK,so should have no opinion. Yet themselves then do have opinions on placed they do mot live!
DT dear...i would welcome your words of wisdom even on Outer Mongolia. Call it freedom of speech.

Use it responsibly . Do not drink at keyboard.

( it kills them).


----------



## 1290423

Tis ok, my keyboard is waterproof
And stop swearing ! Goblin has been designated a swear word as of today! I've applied to get it entered into the urban dictionary 
Goblin - irritating little sh*t


----------



## stockwellcat.

I love the way I get singled out when goblin has been really annoying today.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Tis ok, my keyboard is waterproof
> And stop swearing ! Goblin has been designated a swear word as of today! I've applied to get it entered into the urban dictionary
> Goblin - irritating little sh*t











Get them that Snickers then.
And one for stockwellcat too.
Feels sorry for themselves.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Let's twist again, like we did last summer, you know damd well what I mean
> 2. They havnt paid for decades?


Who said that. You'll notice I said they had paid into the system for decades. Making a point that the scapegoating is already past simply foreigners. Great going DT.



stockwellcat said:


> No I am not pushing the foreigner issue but yet again you are trying to defend something you know absolutely nothing about.


Sorry, didn't you bring up the whole foreigners bill with the NHS? Didn't you state:



stockwellcat said:


> I feel you like blaming the UK for its own NHS problems and sticking up for those that come over here and rip the NHS off through health tourism.


As for knowing nothing about it. I've experienced the system, not simply read the propaganda.



stockwellcat said:


> Fact 1 you don't live in the UK and haven't done for a number of years (over a decade).


Really, so you can visit a country, have relations and friends still in the country and still know nothing about it. Seriously. Cheap shot which doesn't work.



> Fact 3 I am not scapegoating the Government as yes you are right they need to be held to a account.


So what do you call blaming problems on foreigners instead of the government? You blame foreigners, you blame the EU....



> Fact 4 There are areas of the UK where people born in the UK are the minority even in little towns where my dad lives in Lancashire and including the big cities like London, Birmingham, Leeds etc.


Always has been.



> Well excuse me for defending the UK the place I was born in.


Where do you stop? Subtle hint, I am English and was born in the UK. I am still English.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Who said that. You'll notice I said they had paid into the system for decades. Making a point that the scapegoating is already past simply foreigners. Great going DT.
> 
> Sorry, didn't you bring up the whole foreigners bill with the NHS? Didn't you state:
> 
> Really, so just as you can visit a country, have relations and friends still in the country and still know nothing about it. Seriously. Cheap shot which doesn't work.
> 
> So what do you call blaming problems on foreigners instead of the government? You blame foreigners, you blame the EU.
> 
> Always has been.
> 
> Where do you stop?


What about 2 mln Brits in EU? Do they not use health care for free?
And fair amount of them living in the South Europe because of ill health! Arthritis and so on..
Then nationalists of those countries bitterly complain about elderly Brits using their resources...

Oh well...if they cannot use that health care they would be back...


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> What about 2 mln Brits in EU? Do they not use health care for free?
> And fair amount of them living in the South Europe because of ill health! Arthritis and so on..
> Then nationalists of those countries bitterly complain about elderly Brits using their resources...
> 
> Oh well...if they cannot use that health care they would be back...


My understanding is money is claimed back from the NHS. Interestingly as part of the EU, people in the UK could potentially use other countries for operations etc:
http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/plannedtreatment/Pages/Introduction.aspx
Something I've kept in mind as my parents have got older and may need care including medical sometime in the future. If for some reason they couldn't be treated in the UK or put on a long waiting list...


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Then nationalists of those countries bitterly complain about elderly Brits using their resources...
> .


Oh ! So it's not only the Brits complaining then!
Personally, and remember I said personal,y, I think that whatever country we are visiting we should have to pay for health care, whether that be via health insurance or in cold hard cash I think that is the forest way myself! You chose to live in another country then you pay you way, simple, irrespective of whether you pay into that system or not!


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> My understanding is money is claimed back from the NHS. Interestingly as part of the EU, people in the UK could potentially use other countries for operations etc:
> http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/plannedtreatment/Pages/Introduction.aspx
> Something I've kept in mind as my parents have got older and may need care including medical sometime in the future. If for some reason they couldn't be treated in the UK or put on a long waiting list...


it is much cheaper for us to place our elderly in care homes in Spain then here!


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> it is much cheaper for us to place our elderly in care homes in Spain then here!


Imagine NHS where EU nationals can work , but if get ill cannot be treated..
How ironic...


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Who said that. You'll notice I said they had paid into the system for decades. Making a point that the scapegoating is already past simply foreigners. Great going DT.
> 
> Sorry, didn't you bring up the whole foreigners bill with the NHS? Didn't you state:
> 
> As for knowing nothing about it. I've experienced the system, not simply read the propaganda.
> 
> Really, so you can visit a country, have relations and friends still in the country and still know nothing about it. Seriously. Cheap shot which doesn't work.
> 
> So what do you call blaming problems on foreigners instead of the government? You blame foreigners, you blame the EU....
> 
> Always has been.
> 
> Where do you stop? Subtle hint, I am English and was born in the UK. I am still English.


Well let's face it you aRe always taking a pop at stockwellcat


cheeky scrip said:


> Imagine NHS where EU nationals can work , but if get ill cannot be treated..
> How ironic...


I didn't exactly say that! I said that health care should not be claimed automatically for free, but covered, with like medical insurance, once we get out theceuthe perhaps the way to go would be for employers to pay for medical insurance for employees if thecnhs is to be unavailable free to workers


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Very. They are truly sorry about the leak. And the plan. Or lack of it. Hope it did not leak on TM's new trousers.


May should be arrested for crimes against fashion and Cam arrested for not having a plan .


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Well let's face it you aRe always taking a pop at stockwellcat


Actually I take a "pop" at any comment I disagree with. Yours included. Besides which, stockwellcat keeps putting me on ignore.


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> May should be arrested for crimes against fashion and Cam arrested for not having a plan .


What about corbyn and that liberal idiot some ******** fallon? What you got in store for them?


----------



## 1290423

Oh heck, they *************** out a word, and it wasn't even a naughty one! Get on it mods that was an accurate description!


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> it is much cheaper for us to place our elderly in care homes in Spain then here!


I wouldn't want to live in Spain ! Ive just been looking on twitter at really awful photos of the poor bulls with swords in them . Disgusting . 
An area on Spain tried to ban it but they were over ruled by a higher court saying they're not allowed.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Actually I take a "pop" at any comment I disagree with. Yours included. Besides which, stockwellcat keeps putting me on ignore.


And meeee.... Cannot take the heat that un...
When runs out of ammo...bum! Ignore...
But recharges , has a pint or two and comes back...
Curiosity kills the cat!
Kimthecat Cam had the Olan. Called" Winner rakes it all ...lalala..", his mum thoughtfull left him some cash!


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Actually I take a "pop" at any comment I disagree with. Yours included. Besides which, stockwellcat keeps putting me on ignore.


Lol I've got thick skin, not used the iggy button yet, but if you wanna lay bets on who would be the first I'd test it on feel free:Greedy


----------



## stuaz

DT said:


> Excuse me! But may I remind you there are cities in the UK where the Englishman is a now a minority, London, Luton, Bradford, closely followed by Leicester, and I won't even mention Boston ! But as you rightly say, we should hold our government responsible! For allowing it!


May I ask why an 'Englishman' being a minority is a bad thing?


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> Tis ok, my keyboard is waterproof
> And stop swearing ! Goblin has been designated a swear word as of today! I've applied to get it entered into the urban dictionary
> Goblin - irritating little sh*t


 Play nicely or I'll take your bottle of Gin away ! :Hilarious


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> I wouldn't want to live in Spain ! Ive just been looking on twitter at really awful photos of the poor bulls with swords in them . Disgusting .
> An area on Spain tried to ban it but they were over ruled by a higher court saying they're not allowed.


Totally agree re the cruelly, it's not only the Bulls it's the goats too!
Now! I have plan, once we are out Spain chuck the wrinkles out! We stop going on holiday there, and refuse to return until they cease their barbaric cruelty acts.
Told ya I lived in lalaland


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> Play nicely or I'll take your bottle of Gin away ! :Hilarious





kimthecat said:


> Play nicely or I'll take your bottle of Gin away ! :Hilarious


I always play nicely when the gins under threat


----------



## cheekyscrip

And lunch...and dinner...
Must post in that thread about good things in UK.


----------



## 1290423

Duh! Pleaseeeee Credit me with just a little class!


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Actually I take a "pop" at any comment I disagree with. Yours included. Besides which, stockwellcat keeps putting me on ignore.


Well! All I can say is , it's a good job I'm a placid easy going non argumentive model forum member then,
as I seldom agree with anything you say:Bawling:Banghead:Banghead


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> And meeee.... Cannot take the heat that un...
> When runs out of ammo...bum! Ignore...
> But recharges , has a pint or two and comes back...
> Curiosity kills the cat!
> Kimthecat Cam had the Olan. Called" Winner rakes it all ...lalala..", his mum thoughtfull left him some cash!


What heat? It seldom rises above tepid here thesedays


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> What heat? It seldom rises above tepid here thesedays


I know! I was put on ignore! I, the most peace loving, beacon of light, the dove with the olive branch!..Even if I say so..
People are so fragile nowadays.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> I know! I was put on ignore! I, the most peace loving, beacon of light, the dove with the olive branch!..Even if I say so..
> People are so fragile nowadays.


You, fragile:Headphone you're like a Rottweiler on heat when you get the bit between your teeth


----------



## 1290423

Opps opens oneself up to attack, didn't quiet read that right did I?
Was like when on the high street last week, walked into a building to use the toilet! Well it did say TO LET outside!


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> Opps opens oneself up to attack, didn't quiet read that right did I?
> Was like when on the high street last week, walked into a building to use the toilet! Well it did say TO LET outside!


:Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> You, fragile:Headphone you're like a Rottweiler on heat when you get the bit between your teeth


Oh....
Made me blush...
You know quite a lot about Rottweilers! ;-)


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Hey ho noush
> You still remaining then, irrespective of how hard I twist you arm, tickle you and make you laugh
> I'm gutted, truly gutted, my charms are failing


You've failed BIG TIME:Hilarious

*I'm determined to crack DT first. I shall carry on bombarding he with facts & figures until I wake her up*. *I can do this*. :Nailbiting lol



DT said:


> Sorry mate, was putting a witty reply then changed my mind lil xxxx
> 
> In all fairness noush, why should the woman even have been granted 15 minutes to discuss the policy,. If everyone who voted remain were granted 15 mins We'd be well and truly knackered.


No witty reply? Damn it! lol xx

Well she did grant it her & MPs hold surgeries so constituents can speak to them about their concerns. Don't forget, they are 'supposed' to work for us. The fact that May got so rattled & defensive shows how out of her depth she is. This closed minded muppet is going to drag us all off the cliff.



stockwellcat said:


> The Government are paying in billions more to the NHS by the end of the current Governments term so how is that scapegoating?
> 
> I'll let you rant on because it is falling on deaf ears on my part.


They are deliberately underfunding it. Even your own link proves May a liar. Hard to believe people trust this lying politician who is risking the lives of 60 million people who depend on our NHS.



KittenKong said:


> Gosh, that's no surprise. Reminds me of Thatcher losing her cool on being challenged over the sinking of the Belgrano by a viewer live on "Nationwide". It survives in the archives. Yes it is on You tube.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Just goes to show May is no different to Thatcher.


I'd never seen that before. Same contempt for ordinary people However, I'd say May is a pound shop Maggie Thatcher. I didn't like Thatcher or her regressive policies but at least she had a vision - May & her government on the other hand, are a complete & utter shambles



stockwellcat said:


> If the NHS had chip and pin machines installed in the hospitals they could charge the patients that come to the UK as health tourists and not entitled to free treatment before they leave the hospital or GP surgery, like you have to in Holland, Spain, France etc, etc. Plus if you don't have an NHS card or NHS number you should be charged for treatment at source not via invoice in the post, this will then stop people from getting away with not paying for treatment and rigging up debt with the NHS. The £30 million was an example by the journalist that done the story of a catelogue of failures within the NHS that has contributed to the massive debt they are in. You then moan that the Government are making cuts in the NHS and off loading certain treatments to the GP from hospitals, well if people paid for the treatment they aren't entitled to for free then the NHS wouldn't have such a large amount of debt.
> 
> Another example of wasted money in the NHS is missed appointments, my local hospital now texts you to remind you to attend appointments and tells you how much that appointment costs the NHS. If you miss appointments I think you should pay for that missed appointment before being offered another one for free unless there is good reason why you missed the appointment in the first place. That isn't privatising the NHS.
> 
> You don't need so called experts to point you to the information that is available for free under the freedom of information act.





stockwellcat said:


> The NHS should then look at chasing the debt they have from health tourists and missed appointments and they wouldn't need so much money from the Government.
> 
> Here is an example of how much my local hospital get charged for appointments. A standard follow up appointment costs £160 excluding vat. I would expect that instead of just texting me the amount it costs the NHS that if I miss this appointment I would be charged for it before getting another appointment for free from my consultant. This isn't the case though, so what's the point of telling me how much it costs the NHS via text if it isn't going to be followed up on. I didn't miss this appointment I am using it as an example to make a point of where there are failures in the NHS and why they are in debt.


You trust politicians. I trust these guys.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> You've failed BIG TIME:Hilarious
> 
> *I'm determined to crack DT first. I shall carry on bombarding he with facts & figures until I wake her up*. *I can do this*. :Nailbiting lol
> 
> No witty reply? Damn it! lol xx
> 
> Well she did grant it her & MPs hold surgeries so constituents can speak to them about their concerns. Don't forget, they are 'supposed' to work for us. The fact that May got so rattled & defensive shows how out of her depth she is. This closed minded muppet is going to drag us all off the cliff.
> 
> They are deliberately underfunding it. Even your own link proves May a liar. Hard to believe people trust this lying politician who is risking the lives of 60 million people who depend on our NHS.
> 
> You trust politicians. I trust these guys.
> 
> View attachment 294353
> 
> 
> View attachment 294354


Heck noush! You nearly scared to poo outta me then! for one horrible moment I thought that was my old school report you had there


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You've failed BIG TIME:Hilarious
> 
> *I'm determined to crack DT first. I shall carry on bombarding he with facts & figures until I wake her up*. *I can do this*. :Nailbiting lol
> 
> No witty reply? Damn it! lol xx
> 
> Well she did grant it her & MPs hold surgeries so constituents can speak to them about their concerns. Don't forget, they are 'supposed' to work for us. The fact that May got so rattled & defensive shows how out of her depth she is. This closed minded muppet is going to drag us all off the cliff.
> 
> They are deliberately underfunding it. Even your own link proves May a liar. Hard to believe people trust this lying politician who is risking the lives of 60 million people who depend on our NHS.
> 
> I'd never seen that before. Same contempt for ordinary people However, I'd say May is a pound shop Maggie Thatcher. I didn't like Thatcher or her regressive policies but at least she had a vision - May & her government on the other hand, are a complete & utter shambles
> 
> You trust politicians. I trust these guys.
> 
> View attachment 294353
> 
> 
> View attachment 294354


You show handwritten information possibly from junior doctors or did you write it?

Do you know hospital consultants and GPs during the strikes the junior doctors had where telling them to get back to work as it was very disruptive? Some consultants where saying that junior doctors have it easy as the junior doctors work part time and study the rest and get paid and can go on strike nowadays because they don't like they where having a contract imposed on them.

If the junior doctors don't want to work for the NHS there are plenty of people that want there jobs.

So how would you suggest the Government plug the NHS's financial black hole then?
Give them an endless supply of money to waste?

Anyway back to Christmas.
Hope you enjoy worrying yourself about Brexit over Christmas because I certainly won't be as we haven't left the EU yet so Brexit hasn't happened yet? We aren't even around the negotiationing table yet.

Merry Christmas.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> You show handwritten information possibly from junior doctors or did you write it?
> 
> Do you know hospital consultants and GPs during the strikes the junior doctors had where telling them to get back to work as it was very disruptive? Some consultants where saying that junior doctors have it easy as the junior doctors work part time and study the rest and get paid and can go on strike nowadays because they don't like they where having a contract imposed on them.
> 
> If the junior doctors don't want to work for the NHS there are plenty of people that want there jobs.
> 
> So how would you suggest the Government plug the NHS's financial black hole then?
> Give them an endless supply of money to waste?
> 
> Anyway back to Christmas.
> Hope you enjoy worrying yourself about Brexit over Christmas because I certainly won't be as we haven't left the EU yet so Brexit hasn't happened yet? We aren't even around the negotiationing table yet.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


lol It wasn't done by me, it was done by South London Junior Doctors = @SLJuniorDoctors.

Junior Doctors have it easy? Please do show me evidence to back this up?

Perhaps you & DT could step in & the fill their jobs?. I hear there's a big shortage of brain surgeons:Hilarious

The tories forced the NHS to make £20billion 'efficiency savings'. They are forcing the NHS to make £22billion more savings whist at the same time underfunding it.

The government CREATED the black-hole. Our NHS has gone from surplus to massive deficit in three short years. Go figure.


----------



## noushka05

The National Health Action Party. Set up by medical professionals fighting to save our NHS from privatisation.








*The NHA Party* ‏@*NHAparty* Nov 27

"Health tourism" is *zombie* issue govt uses to whip up anti-immigrant feeling & deflect you from its *NHS* sell-off. About 1/1000th *NHS* budget

.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> lol It wasn't done by me
> ?
> 
> Perhaps you & DT could step in & the fill their jobs?. I hear there's a big shortage of brain surgeons:Hilarious
> 
> The government CREATED the black-hole.
> View attachment 294363


Nah,. It weren't done by noush, that ain't her writing,. I can spot that with a blindfold on.

Why not! Reckon if we did a crash course Stockwell and I can step up to the plate there,. We are both quick learners .

Not bothered about the black hole, it's the blackboard Im More worried about! Have the PC brigade renamed it again ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Not bothered about the black hole, it's the *blackboard * Im More worried about!



They need the blackboard to teach the Junior Doctors with so if they don't agree with what they are being taught the chalk can be rubbed out instead of them going on strike.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The government CREATED the black-hole. Our NHS has gone from surplus to massive deficit in three short years. Go figure.
> View attachment 294363


Which Government was in power in 2010, 2011, 2012?

Who was in power in 2009/2010?

I know, do you?

I am sorry but we could debate about the NHS all day, the problem is the NHS have a spending black hole and have over spent year on year since 2012 and need to plug that financial black hole.

Everyone in the UK has had to make cuts (including the NHS) including the armed forces who keep our country safe but I don't see you picking on the Government about the armed forces cuts.

What would you rather the Government do hand the NHS an endless pot of money and not audit them or make them be held accountable to what they are spending this money on?

The NHS asked for £8 billion extra from the Government in funding over this Governments term. They got what they asked for and now the NHS want more. They really need to sort out there finances as it seems the NHS plucked this figure from thin air and realised they under estimated this figure. Then the NHS blame people for living longer as the excuse for wanting more money even though it was the NHS chief that requested £8 billion extra in the first place.

Perhaps there's a lesson to be learnt here by the NHS and that is to over estimate there finances and extra funding in future instead of under estimating there funding.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Which Government was in power in 2010, 2011, 2012?
> 
> Who was in power in 2009/2010?
> 
> I know, do you?
> 
> I am sorry but we could debate about the NHS all day, the problem is the NHS have a spending black hole and have over spent year on year since 2012 and need to plug that financial black hole.
> 
> Everyone in the UK has had to make cuts (including the NHS) including the armed forces who keep our country safe but I don't see you picking on the Government about the armed forces cuts.
> 
> What would you rather the Government do hand the NHS an endless pot of money and not audit them or make them be held accountable to what they are spending this money on?
> 
> The NHS asked for £8 billion extra from the Government in funding over this Governments term. They got what they asked for and now the NHS want more. They really need to sort out there finances as it seems the NHS plucked this figure from thin air and realised they under estimated this figure. Then the NHS blame people for living longer as the excuse for wanting more money even though it was the NHS chief that requested £8 billion extra in the first place.
> 
> Perhaps there's a lesson to be learnt here by the NHS and that is to over estimate there finances and extra funding in future instead of under estimating there funding.


Perhaps they shouldn't have gone down the PFI route to pay for so many large scale projects around the turn of the millennia. My Dad was a key player in hospital design at the time.and warned strongly about how much it would cost in the long run. Sadly, management didn't listen...


----------



## Goblin

Stockwellcat (picking on them I know) was right to bring up the whole NHS theme. After all it was one of the many major areas in which the leave campaign pushed.

People remember?






So can anyone tell me how simply leaving the EU is going to achieve all this? Claiming the money back from all the foreigners isn't. Not being able to hire foreign staff and alienating those already working there isn't either. I'm still intrigued what magic wand is going to be used. Let's face it, those leading the leave campaign have now stated that 350million for the NHS wasn't a promise it would be spent that way. So where is all the money going to come from to achieve what was promised in that advert?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Which Government was in power in 2010, 2011, 2012?
> 
> Who was in power in 2009/2010?
> 
> I know, do you?
> 
> I am sorry but we could debate about the NHS all day, the problem is the NHS have a spending black hole and have over spent year on year since 2012 and need to plug that financial black hole.
> 
> Everyone in the UK has had to make cuts (including the NHS) including the armed forces who keep our country safe but I don't see you picking on the Government about the armed forces cuts.
> 
> What would you rather the Government do hand the NHS an endless pot of money and not audit them or make them be held accountable to what they are spending this money on?
> 
> The NHS asked for £8 billion extra from the Government in funding over this Governments term. They got what they asked for and now the NHS want more. They really need to sort out there finances as it seems the NHS plucked this figure from thin air and realised they under estimated this figure. Then the NHS blame people for living longer as the excuse for wanting more money even though it was the NHS chief that requested £8 billion extra in the first place.
> 
> Perhaps there's a lesson to be learnt here by the NHS and that is to over estimate there finances and extra funding in future instead of under estimating there funding.


That's right blame labour, blame Camerons government, blame immigrants, lets not hold Mays government to account. Let them off the hook & allow them steal away perhaps the best health service in the world. They must be laughing their heads off.

PFIs & Osbornes version of them have been disastrous, you'll get no argument from me. For new labours part Corbyn has at least apologised for labours involvement in using PFIs (even though I believe he voted against them), but it is the Health & Social care act 2012 that was the trigger for the crisis we are witnessing today. PFIs were disastrous but it is the Health & Social care Act which has allowed our NHS to be swallowed up by the private sector. The same Health & Social Care Act Theresa May & her ministers all voted for!










Everyone hasn't had to make cuts at all. Corporations got tax breaks. The rich got richer on the backs of the poor & our public services & welfare state has been slashed to the bone. Austerity didn't apply to everyone - it was/is a humungous con to shrink the state & transfer wealth to the wealthiest.

Give the NHS £8bn then force them to deliver £22bn efficiency saving on top of the £20 billion they have already been forced to make - do you not see a problem with that?. Our NHS will be completely destroyed on Theresa May's watch. And we were warned by experts a vote for brexit would hasten its demise - I & others posted about it. (probably somewhere on this thread)

Our NHS is one of most cost effective health care systems in the world - of course we can afford it. The government chooses not to, its as simple as that. When we've pulled up the drawbridge at least they wont be able to blame foreigners. The irony is without foreigners our NHS would have collapsed long ago.










If we can still afford to give massive tax breaks for the rich & subsidise giant corporations, spend billions on HS2 & other useless white elephants, millions on killing badgers. We could quite easily fund our NHS. The reason they wont save it is because they are SELLING IT OFF  Wake up @stockwellcat

. They will destroy one of the fairest, most efficient & cost-effect health systems in world. Ignore experts at your peril. Because they are shouting from the rooftops to get this message out.

.

.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Stockwellcat (picking on them I know) was right to bring up the whole NHS theme. After all it was one of the many major areas in which the leave campaign pushed.
> 
> People remember?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So can anyone tell me how simply leaving the EU is going to achieve all this? Claiming the money back from all the foreigners isn't. Not being able to hire foreign staff and alienating those already working there isn't either. I'm still intrigued what magic wand is going to be used. Let's face it, those leading the leave campaign have now stated that 350million for the NHS wasn't a promise it would be spent that way. So where is all the money going to come from to achieve what was promised in that advert?


Right! Dons hard hat and digs out bovver boots!
Fact is we will never know how much could have been put back into the NHS!
That being due to the government not really having a free hand and having to cowtow to the MPs and the remain voters by way of a soft brexit.
Personally, I think if we could have had a hell of a lot more to put back then was quoted!
Had we have had a leader with a pAir of balls, there has only been two Churchill and thatcher, we may have lived to find out but sadly the goal post keeps moving!
We should, and it appears we can, have left immediately, we should have gone for the hard brexit. Those working here should be allowed to remain on provision that they were financially stable and on no social benifits what so ever, that includes both I work benifits and out of work benifits, social housing, family allowance, child care nothing! And no way should they be allowed to send benefits home, would even look at not allowing them social housing! Medical care would be pAid for with private medical insurance, there would be no translators in hospitals, and if your children can't speak English then they don't go to school! I would allow schooling. But that's about it!

Imagine how much we would save paying our no rent top ups. No family allowance. No allowance for children back home, no tax credits, no free prescriptions, no free health care!
Anyone in prison would be exported immediately to their mother land, irrespective of whether they feared for their safety or not. I would get all the beggars and homeless off the streets, our own would be given hostel beds, others would be sent home.
I'd get our own idle long term unemployed back in work, no worky , no benifit simples.
But you say, what about our own people overseas
Sorry but I'm bothered about here not overseas, but would like to think that Brits living overseas would be supplemented by their employers or would at the least be financially stable. 
Someone working here from overseas whyo loses their job for no fault of their own then special allowances should be made in the way of benefits upto say one year.
I would maybe tweak a little but not much!
DT runs and hides


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Right! Dons hard hat and digs out bovver boots!
> Fact is we will never know how much could have been put back into the NHS!
> That being due to the government not really having a free hand and having to cowtow to the MPs and the remain voters by way of a soft brexit.
> Personally, I think if we could have had a hell of a lot more to put back then was quoted!
> Had we have had a leader with a pAir of balls, there has only been two Churchill and thatcher, we may have lived to find out but sadly the goal post keeps moving!
> We should, and it appears we can, have left immediately, we should have gone for the hard brexit. Those working here should be allowed to remain on provision that they were financially stable and on no social benifits what so ever, that includes both I work benifits and out of work benifits, social housing, family allowance, child care nothing! And no way should they be allowed to send benefits home, would even look at not allowing them social housing! Medical care would be pAid for with private medical insurance, there would be no translators in hospitals, and if your children can't speak English then they don't go to school! I would allow schooling. But that's about it!
> 
> Imagine how much we would save paying our no rent top ups. No family allowance. No allowance for children back home, no tax credits, no free prescriptions, no free health care!
> Anyone in prison would be exported immediately to their mother land, irrespective of whether they feared for their safety or not. I would get all the beggars and homeless off the streets, our own would be given hostel beds, others would be sent home.
> I'd get our own idle long term employed back in work, no wormy, no benifit simples.
> But you say, what about our own people overseas
> Sorry but I'm bothered about here not overseas, but would like to think that Brits living overseas would be supplemented by their employed, or would at the least be financially stable.
> Someone working here from overseas who loses their job for no fault of their own then special allowances should be made in the way of benefits upto say one year.
> I would maybe tweak a little but not much!
> DT runs and hides


DT running and hiding I am at the one on the right ducking for cover


----------



## Satori

.


DT said:


> Right! Dons hard hat and digs out bovver boots!
> Fact is we will never know how much could have been put back into the NHS!
> That being due to the government not really having a free hand and having to cowtow to the MPs and the remain voters by way of a soft brexit.
> Personally, I think if we could have had a hell of a lot more to put back then was quoted!
> Had we have had a leader with a pAir of balls, there has only been two Churchill and thatcher, we may have lived to find out but sadly the goal post keeps moving!
> We should, and it appears we can, have left immediately, we should have gone for the hard brexit. Those working here should be allowed to remain on provision that they were financially stable and on no social benifits what so ever, that includes both I work benifits and out of work benifits, social housing, family allowance, child care nothing! And no way should they be allowed to send benefits home, would even look at not allowing them social housing! Medical care would be pAid for with private medical insurance, there would be no translators in hospitals, and if your children can't speak English then they don't go to school! I would allow schooling. But that's about it!
> 
> Imagine how much we would save paying our no rent top ups. No family allowance. No allowance for children back home, no tax credits, no free prescriptions, no free health care!
> Anyone in prison would be exported immediately to their mother land, irrespective of whether they feared for their safety or not. I would get all the beggars and homeless off the streets, our own would be given hostel beds, others would be sent home.
> I'd get our own idle long term unemployed back in work, no worky , no benifit simples.
> But you say, what about our own people overseas
> Sorry but I'm bothered about here not overseas, but would like to think that Brits living overseas would be supplemented by their employers or would at the least be financially stable.
> Someone working here from overseas whyo loses their job for no fault of their own then special allowances should be made in the way of benefits upto say one year.
> I would maybe tweak a little but not much!
> DT runs and hides


Consider yourself repped.


----------



## kimthecat

If anyone's interested =

https://www.theguardian.com/society...worlds-best-healthcare-system-this-is-the-nhs

@DT Eek, I think you're a tad OTT there ! :Wideyed


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Right! Dons hard hat and digs out bovver boots!
> Fact is we will never know how much could have been put back into the NHS!
> That being due to the government not really having a free hand and having to cowtow to the MPs and the remain voters by way of a soft brexit.
> Personally, I think if we could have had a hell of a lot more to put back then was quoted!
> Had we have had a leader with a pAir of balls, there has only been two Churchill and thatcher, we may have lived to find out but sadly the goal post keeps moving!
> We should, and it appears we can, have left immediately, we should have gone for the hard brexit. Those working here should be allowed to remain on provision that they were financially stable and on no social benifits what so ever, that includes both I work benifits and out of work benifits, social housing, family allowance, child care nothing! And no way should they be allowed to send benefits home, would even look at not allowing them social housing! Medical care would be pAid for with private medical insurance, there would be no translators in hospitals, and if your children can't speak English then they don't go to school! I would allow schooling. But that's about it!
> 
> Imagine how much we would save paying our no rent top ups. No family allowance. No allowance for children back home, no tax credits, no free prescriptions, no free health care!
> Anyone in prison would be exported immediately to their mother land, irrespective of whether they feared for their safety or not. I would get all the beggars and homeless off the streets, our own would be given hostel beds, others would be sent home.
> I'd get our own idle long term unemployed back in work, no worky , no benifit simples.
> But you say, what about our own people overseas
> Sorry but I'm bothered about here not overseas, but would like to think that Brits living overseas would be supplemented by their employers or would at the least be financially stable.
> Someone working here from overseas whyo loses their job for no fault of their own then special allowances should be made in the way of benefits upto say one year.
> I would maybe tweak a little but not much!
> DT runs and hides


That's a rep from me to.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> DT running and hiding I am at the one on the right ducking for cover
> View attachment 294396


No need for us to run and hide after all Stockwell

I've sorted it!

One for me....










And one for you.......


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> No need for us to run and hide after all Stockwell
> 
> I've sorted it!
> 
> One for me....
> 
> View attachment 294400
> 
> 
> And one for you.......
> 
> View attachment 294401


But I prefer using this weapon :


----------



## cheekyscrip

...


----------



## stockwellcat.

You'll have to excuse me. I am busy getting comforted by a glass of this:








It is from Aldi and is there version of Bailey's and tastes lush.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Stockwellcat (picking on them I know)


Sorry I have left you so long to reply to.



> was right to bring up the whole NHS theme.


 I know I was right to bring up the NHS issue not theme but not for the reasons you have quoted below.



> People remember?


No I don't remember this because I didn't take any notice of the nonsense that was broadcasted on TV, in the street, on advertising boards or on the radio.



> So can anyone tell me how simply leaving the EU is going to achieve all this?


 Oh calm down for ffs we haven't even entered negotiations yet with the EU member states so haven't left the EU yet. Yet again I fail to see how the NHS affects you. You are in Germany.


> Let's face it, those leading the leave campaign have now stated that 350million for the NHS wasn't a promise it would be spent that way.


 I don't know because I really didn't take any notice of the leave campaigns campaign when I cast my vote. Which part of I voted my way for my own reasons don't you understand?


> So where is all the money going to come from to achieve what was promised in that advert?


Give things time to settle down after we stop paying into the EU in 2020 as we are tied into paying the EU until then. Things take time it don't happen overnight.

Seriously now you're going to burst a blood vessel with all this worrying you are doing. Chill out and enjoy Christmas and New Year.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Right! Dons hard hat and digs out bovver boots!
> Fact is we will never know how much could have been put back into the NHS!


Do you need the picture? It's 350million a week. It's not as the whole NHS will be better is a big lie from the leave campaign.



> That being due to the government not really having a free hand and having to cowtow to the MPs and the remain voters by way of a soft brexit.


Government has a free hand. It doesn't even have to leave the EU as the referendum wasn't binding at it was far from a majority of the population who voted to leave. . When it does, what did you vote for really.. uncertainty.










I see nothing about hard/soft brexit. I see nothing about the NHS. You were sold a pile of bull and believed it. What's more you still believe it despite all evidence to the contrary. Obviously you'll continue to believe as you don't believe in experts. Maybe that was as you were told to ignore them by Gove and spin is preferable.



> Had we have had a leader with a pAir of balls, there has only been two Churchill and thatcher, we may have lived to find out but sadly the goal post keeps moving!


Goalposts aren't moving. What was promised simply isn't deliverable. What you believed the goalposts were, aren't.



> We should, and it appears we can, have left immediately, we should have gone for the hard brexit. Those working here should be allowed to remain on provision that they were financially stable and on no social benifits what so ever, that includes both I work benifits and out of work benifits, social housing, family allowance, child care nothing!


You have a different levels of citizens. Used to have that but it was officially abolished in 1833.

I'm all for sorting out the benefit system. Needs to target those who need it with needed protection but that seems to be hard to implement for civil servants. Nothing to do with the EU.



> Sorry but I'm bothered about here not overseas, but would like to think that Brits living overseas would be supplemented by their employers or would at the least be financially stable


British people overseas (in theory and legally) are treated as a native in that country would be without any discrimination. They need to be self sufficient on arrival to another EU country just as any EU immigrant needs to be when arriving in the UK. They are entitiled to nothing on arrival.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> No I don't remember this because I didn't take any notice of the nonsense that was broadcasted on TV, in the street, on advertising boards or on the radio.


Really, why is it "your reasons", many of which you have given in this thread, are repetitions of that nonsense broadcasted on TV, in the street and on the radio? In fact almost as though you are quoting those sources?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Do you need the picture? It's 350million a week. It's not as the whole NHS will be better is a big lie from the leave campaign.
> 
> Government has a free hand. It doesn't even have to leave the EU as the referendum wasn't binding at it was far from a majority of the population who voted to leave. . When it does, what did you vote for really.. uncertainty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see nothing about hard/soft brexit. I see nothing about the NHS. You were sold a pile of bull and believed it. What's more you still believe it despite all evidence to the contrary. Obviously you'll continue to believe as you don't believe in experts. Maybe that was as you were told to ignore them by Gove and spin is preferable.
> 
> Goalposts aren't moving. What was promised simply isn't deliverable. What you believed the goalposts were, aren't.
> 
> You have a different levels of citizens. Used to have that but it was officially abolished in 1833.
> 
> I'm all for sorting out the benefit system. Needs to target those who need it with needed protection but that seems to be hard to implement for civil servants. Nothing to do with the EU.
> 
> British people overseas (in theory and legally) are treated as a native in that country would be without any discrimination. They need to be self sufficient on arrival to another EU country just as any EU immigrant needs to be when arriving in the UK. They are entitiled to nothing on arrival.


The none binding thing is getting boring. Everyone in Parliament has accepted that we are heading for the Exit door with the EU (461 to 89). It was left for the Government to decide when the the vote leave result would be implemented and trigger article 50 in the event of a leave result from the Referendum. Read the rules again, the up to date ones that where published before the Queen gave royal assent.

The Supreme Judges are split by the way 7 to 4 about ruling on Article 50. I do have evidence of this in way of newspaper stories.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Really, why is it "your reasons", many of which you have given in this thread, are repetitions of that nonsense broadcasted on TV, in the street and on the radio? In fact almost as though you are quoting those sources?


Nope. Never seen this video before ever. So 

N.B.O.I.Y.G.

Merry Christmas.


----------



## MilleD

stockwellcat said:


> You'll have to excuse me. I am busy getting comforted by a glass of this:
> View attachment 294404
> 
> It is from Aldi and is there version of Bailey's and tastes lush.


It's still not Bailey's though is it?

Lower ABV and a bit waterier. It's not bad for the price though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MilleD said:


> It's still not Bailey's though is it?
> 
> Lower ABV and a bit waterier. It's not bad for the price though.


Aldi's version is Ballcastle Irish Country Cream  I don't like the Chocolate version they do but much prefer the Smooth & Mellow normal one Aldi do its 14.5% volume as well. Not bad for £3.75 a bottle.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
well, while U're getting happily potted, i'm not made happy by DT's rant. 
Sounds remarkably like Scrooge:
"if [the poor] are going to die, they should get on with it, & decrease the surplus popn!"
.
No translators in hospitals?
Good idea! - now legitimate visitors to Ur fair isle can just shuffle off & die somewhere else, 'cuz the UK doesn't WANT any f-ing grad-students, international tourists, ppl on internships, or any other Gods-damned folk what don't speak proper British. :rage:
Who wants bl**dy tourists chucking money about - send 'em all home!
Who wants international bankers, foreign firms, or even diplomatic personnel?! -
if British isn't their mother-tongue imbibed with their breastmilk, don't let 'em in.
That'll show 'em! *shakes fist*
.
.
mostly it'll show 'em U Brits are too stooopid to avoid shooting Ur own feet, leaving U nothing to stand on.
International tourism is a whopping chunk of the UK economy; foreign firms & financial firms based overseas are another big chunk.
Foreign students... ditto.
Doctoral candidates are the dogsbodies of the universities; much of the teaching load is deflected onto their shoulders, grading papers, tutoring, coaching sessions, labs.
.
.
if a well-off tourist has appedicitis, U thoughtless twit, ] don't tell them to go the H*** home for treatment, & U **do!** provide a translator to ease communication - since even signing a form to allow Dx & Tx requires the understanding consent of the patient, boobie. 
U can't just stick a needle in their buttocks & hie them off to surgery; U need a medical history, drug sensitivities, etc.
.
.
I'm going to be charitable & presume U hadn't thot that out entirely - rather than that U're a fervid nationalist who'd gladly see every non-Brit on the planet die, leaving the native-born residents with at least 200 years of UK ancestry as the sole humans.
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
sorry -
can't edit on my mobile, that should read "...*U* don't tell 'em to go the H*** home..."
.
.
.


----------



## 1290423

leashedForLife said:


> .
> sorry -
> can't edit on my mobile, that should read "...*U* don't tell 'em to go the H*** home..."
> .
> .
> .


Duh! If you can't even edit on your mobile however would you expect anyone to take seriously what you have to say!
I mean, even I can do that lol


----------



## 1290423

And too damb right I'd stop translaters in hospitals, this comes from my hospital, we book them, at 500ukp per session,. The patient doesn't turn up , we still have to pay them! They rebook another appointment and so the process continues.
You bet your little
cotton socks I'd stop them!


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Really, why is it "your reasons", many of which you have given in this thread, are repetitions of that nonsense broadcasted on TV, in the street and on the radio? In fact almost as though you are quoting those sources?


I couldn't care less who said what or who did what, I voted out because I wanted out, simple, do you want me to write it in big letters? Easier for some to understand!
By the way, anyone heard what Kenneth Clarke said today on the radio? You know, the rushcliffe conservative mp,. Yep, that one, the one appearing in every TV programme there was banging on about why we should remain in the EU
Lmfao


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> The none binding thing is getting boring. Everyone in Parliament has accepted that we are heading for the Exit door with the EU (461 to 89). It was left for the Government to decide when the the vote leave result would be implemented and trigger article 50 in the event of a leave result from the Referendum. Read the rules again, the up to date ones that where published before the Queen gave royal assent.
> 
> The Supreme Judges are split by the way 7 to 4 about ruling on Article 50. I do have evidence of this in way of newspaper stories.


Think we should call it a day Stockwell, it's getting boring now, akin to watching paint dry!


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Think we should call it a day Stockwell, it's getting boring now, akin to watching paint dry!











I have already called it a day. It is a bit of a boring hobby.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> And too damb right I'd stop translaters in hospitals, this comes from my hospital, we book them, at 500ukp per session,. The patient doesn't turn up , we still have to pay them! They rebook another appointment and so the process continues.
> You bet your little
> cotton socks I'd stop them!


Remember situation when delegate to a conference brought a wife and she had misfortune to fall ill.
Luckily I could accompany her to local hospital etc.. 
But we happen to have patients here, often tourists who fall ill and need to stay. Sometimes translator is needed.Most of the time we use our international nurses...but not many Italians or Chinese... So if we must we bring translators.
Imagine how scary it is if you are seriously ill and cannot find out what is going on?
How to get patient's permission for surgery and explain the treatment?
Or you have options to chose? Or they want to know if you are allergic to this or that?
I sometimes work as such translator ...we have matters of such importance like last will or death certificate.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Remember situation when delegate toba conference brought a wife and she had misfortune to fall ill.
> Luckily I could accompany her to local hospital etc..
> But we happen to have patients here, often tourists who fall ill and need to stay. Sometimes translator is needed.Most of the time we use our international nurses...but not many Italians or Chinese... So if we must we bring translators.
> Imagine how scary it is if you are seriously ill and cannot find out what is going on?
> How to get patient's permission for surgery and explain the treatment?
> Or you have options to chose? Or they want to know if you are allergic to this or that?
> I sometimes work as such translator ...we have matters of such importance like last will or death certificate.


Exactly! They bring translators,. I've no problem with that,. Assuming that is they bring their own,. Why the hell should we fork out for appointments where a translator is needed and then the patient doesn't even turn up.


----------



## 1290423

In 2012 we spent 23 millon, ok, not a fortune , but I can think of better life saving services where 23million would have been better spent

Depression for starters, vastly overlooked.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> "
> .
> No translators in hospitals?
> Good idea! - now linternships, or any other Gods-damned folk what don't speak proper British. :rage:
> Who wants bl**dy tourists chucking money about - send 'em all home!
> Who wants international bankers, foreign firms, or even diplomatic personnel?! -
> if British isn't their mother-tongue imbibed with their breastmilk, don't let 'em in.
> That'll show 'em! *shakes fist*
> .
> .
> mostly it'll show 'em U Brits are too stooopid to avoid shooting Ur own feet, leaving U nothing to stand on.
> International tourism is a whopping chunk of the UK economy; foreign firms & financial firms based overseas are another big chunk.
> Foreign students... ditto.
> Doctoral candidates are the dogsbodies of the universities; much of the teaching load is deflected onto their shoulders, grading papers, tutoring, coaching sessions, labs.
> .
> .
> if a well-off tourist has appedicitis, U thoughtless twit, ] don't tell them to go the H*** home for treatment, & U **do!** provide a translator to ease communication - since even signing a form to allow Dx & Tx requires the understanding consent of the patient, boobie.
> 
> Exactly! They bring translators,. I've no problem with that,. Assuming that is they bring their own,. Why the hell should we form out for appointments where a translator is needed and then the patient doesn't even turn up.


Hospital calls translators if needs them. Court. Police. They have to know their rights, the charges etc..I happened to have defendants unjustly accused too. I was their life line to defend themselves and explain the situation.
Imagine the scary situation then you accidentally trespass and are accused only because security slept on their job?
I requested the camera footage and charges were dropped immediately.
We have big income from tourists and it is worth to keep them happy.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Hospital calls translators if needs them. Court. Police. They have to know their rights, the charges etc..I happened to have defendants unjustly accused too. I was their life line to defend themselves and explain the situation.
> Imagine the scary situation then you accidentally trespass and are accused only because security slept on their job?
> I requested the camera footage and charges were dropped immediately.
> We have big income from tourists and it is worth to keep them happy.


Awh, but who footed the bill? And just to clarify,. I have no problem with employed interpreters, there is a difference.


----------



## 1290423

[QUOTE="cheekyscrip, post: 1064733620, .
We have big income from tourists and it is worth to keep them happy.[/QUOTE]
Not exactly sure what you are saying here, are you saying g that things need to be made clear to tourists,. Or are you saying g once tourists have been accused of a crime?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Many do actually believe in "The Sun".


I recall at one time the Sun had the biggest circulation of any ''newspaper''...not sure if that is still the case.


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> I couldn't care less who said what or who did what, I voted out because I wanted out, simple, do you want me to write it in big letters? Easier for some to understand!
> By the way, anyone heard what Kenneth Clarke said today on the radio? You know, the rushcliffe conservative mp,. Yep, that one, the one appearing in every TV programme there was banging on about why we should remain in the EU
> Lmfao


What did he say?


----------



## stockwellcat.

...


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> [QUOTE="cheekyscrip, post: 1064733620, .
> We have big income from tourists and it is worth to keep them happy.


Not exactly sure what you are saying here, are you saying g that things need to be made clear to tourists,. Or are you saying g once tourists have been accused of a crime?[/QUOTE]
Yes. Russian seaman who went for a walk to see the sights and have something to eat and drink was accused of something he did not do. Only because he went into private club thinking it is a bar.
Our government pays if needs to.
It is a legal requirement that you are interviewed in language you can use fluently.
Hard work sometimes.But presumed innocent and has right to defense.
It is civilised world after all.


----------



## rona

DT said:


> And too damb right I'd stop translaters in hospitals


I need a translator to understand some of the staff!!!



Calvine said:


> I recall at one time the Sun had the biggest circulation of any ''newspaper''...not sure if that is still the case.


It's still is but even with online, it's far less than it used to be and would only be influencing about 3-3.5% of the population

1,787,096 print
792,994 online


----------



## cheekyscrip

Ver


rona said:


> I need a translator to understand some of the staff!!!
> 
> It's still is but even with online, it's far less than it used to be and would only be influencing about 3-3.5% of the population
> 
> 1,787,096 print
> 792,994 online


Very true. You may speak another language but come to medical or legal matters you are lost!


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> I would be charged for it before getting another appointment for free from my consultant.


Interestingly enough, today I received a letter to arrange an assessment for physiotherapy, and this is what they say:

*''Each week we have a very high number of patients not attending their appointments and we therefore have a strict discharge policy:

If you fail to attend one appointment without prior notification, you will be discharged.
OR
If you cancel more than one appointment you will be discharged.''
*
The recipient is than asked to sign that they understand what they have read.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> I couldn't care less who said what or who did what, I voted out because I wanted out, simple, do you want me to write it in big letters? Easier for some to understand!


Yep, that's fine. I can appreciate the honesty. Hardly an endorsement for Brexit though is it.



DT said:


> By the way, anyone heard what Kenneth Clarke said today on the radio? You know, the rushcliffe conservative mp,. Yep, that one, the one appearing in every TV programme there was banging on about why we should remain in the EU


Did he say "we should do it as that's what I want"?

I know Rona likes her polls. An interesting one for you:
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/politics/sunderland-echo-poll-shows-u-turn-on-brexit-1-8282851


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> I know Rona likes her polls


Actually, I show polls to prove how they can show anything you like.....................The polls for the Brexit vote should prove to anyone how ridiculous they are

As I said before, you have know understanding of what I mean on anything


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> Interestingly enough, today I received a letter to arrange an assessment for physiotherapy, and this is what they say:
> 
> *''Each week we have a very high number of patients not attending their appointments and we therefore have a strict discharge policy:
> 
> If you fail to attend one appointment without prior notification, you will be discharged.
> OR
> If you cancel more than one appointment you will be discharged.''
> *
> The recipient is than asked to sign that they understand what they have read.


The hospital I have been attending doesn't send letters like this, they just send you a text telling you when your appointment is and how much the appointment costs them. I suppose each hospital/NHS trust works differently. I have never been told by the hospital I have been attending that they will discharge me back to the GP for missing an appointment. Although to be honest I have never missed a hospital appointment.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Actually, I show polls to prove how they can show anything you like.....................The polls for the Brexit vote should prove to anyone how ridiculous they are


So what is the referendum other than a glorified opinion poll at the end of the day? Still used by TM as an apparant mandate to cause damage to the country.

I agree about polls though, CNN provided no details of who was included although even there, the majority recognised they would be worse off despite the attempt to spin it. Other polls which may be of areas which voted to remain and still do do not say a lot either.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> So what is the referendum other than a glorified opinion poll at the end of the day? Still used by TM as an apparant mandate to cause damage to the country.
> .


Why do you claim TM is causing damage to the country? I'm no fan of hers but she was selected to steer us through the storm.
If you lot would just shut up and let her get in with it maybe you'd be surprised at the outcome.
You continue to slate us who voted out claiming t we we led by the press, the false figures promised to the NHS etc etc etc blah blah blah. Respect cuts two ways! Fact


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Why do you claim TM is causing damage to the country? I'm no fan of hers but she was selected to steer us through the storm.
> If you lot would just shut up and let her get in with it maybe you'd be surprised at the outcome.
> You continue to slate us who voted out claiming t we we led by the press, the false figures promised to the NHS etc etc etc blah blah blah. Respect cuts two ways! Fact


Convince me of the advantages of leaving. Rona's right I do not understand the reasoning. People so far haven't provided any credible ones. I'd love to be surprised but I don't trust someone off the street to perform brain surgery. I rely on experts and one thing the majority of experts agree with is that Brexit will damage the UK. We'll survive no doubt about that but why damage the country in the first place? As for shutting up why should I? Democracy/freedom of speech is just as much my right as yours. TM is steering us through the storm of our own making when even the destination wasn't decided beforehand. We are unlikely to be able to return if we don't like that destination. If we do we'll lose a lot of the power we hold and special treatment within the EU.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> Although to be honest I have never missed a hospital appointment


I find it amazing that such a ''high number of patients'' just don't turn up that they feel they have to do this. A friend of mine lives in Norwich and a while ago she heard from her GP that missed appointments would in future be charged...can't remember how much but I thought it was very little. She was horrified; but if you feel better and don't need to see a doctor, ring and tell them that. Either that or you really can't be that ill in the first place if you think, ah, sod it, can't be bothered to walk over there.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
DT,
U grabbed the wrong end of the stick, which is probly a frequent event. 
.
it's not that i am INCAPABLE * OF * EDITING my own text; my [cheap, no-contract] mobile PHONE is incapable // won't permit editing.
.
IOW, my Virgin Slo-boil mobile phone has been very deliberately dumbed-down in multiple ways -- which of course isn't part of VM's advertising.
U only discover its various lackwit built-in voids by using it, after purchase. 
.
Kinda like politicians: U vote for them based on various expectations & their own claims of what they stand for, or what they intend to do.
U only find out what they *Will Do* after they actually take office; frequently their claims & intentions never achieve reality.
.
as for whether ppl think my opinion is worth reading - that's for the reader to decide.
In any case, i'm entitled to express my opinion, & feel free to add me to that handy 'Ignore' button if i'm too cerebral for U. 
No hurt feelings.
.
.
.


----------



## 1290423

leashedForLife said:


> .
> DT,
> U grabbed the wrong end of the stick, which is probly a frequent event.
> .
> it's not that i am INCAPABLE * OF * EDITING my own text; my [cheap, no-contract] mobile PHONE is incapable // won't permit editing.
> .
> IOW, my Virgin Slo-boil mobile phone has been very deliberately dumbed-down in multiple ways -- which of course isn't part of VM's advertising.
> U only discover its various lackwit built-in voids by using it, after purchase.
> .
> Kinda like politicians: U vote for them based on various expectations & their own claims of what they stand for, or what they intend to do.
> U only find out what they *Will Do* after they actually take office; frequently their claims & intentions never achieve reality.
> .
> as for whether ppl think my opinion is worth reading - that's for the reader to decide.
> In any case, i'm entitled to express my opinion, & feel free to add me to that handy 'Ignore' button if i'm too cerebral for U.
> No hurt feelings.
> .
> .
> .


Fraid i m to nosey to use the ignore button,. I bounce well too, seldom are my feelings grazed


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> I find it amazing that such a ''high number of patients'' just don't turn up that they feel they have to do this. A friend of mine lives in Norwich and a while ago she heard from her GP that missed appointments would in future be charged...can't remember how much but I thought it was very little. She was horrified; but if you feel better and don't need to see a doctor, ring and tell them that. Either that or you really can't be that ill in the first place if you think, ah, sod it, can't be bothered to walk over there.


Terrible,. If there is not a cast iron reason for DNA that's what our surgery call it,. They have a list in the wall showing how many did not attends there were each month, anyway back to the cast iron reason, is dead, in a coma they any further appointments should be charged for in advance,. And yes, dead or in a coma,. Can't think of much else that prevents you notifying in advance you are unable to attend.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Convince me of the advantages of leaving. Rona's right I do not understand the reasoning. People so far haven't provided any credible ones. I'd love to be surprised but I don't trust someone off the street to perform brain surgery. I rely on experts and one thing the majority of experts agree with is that Brexit will damage the UK. We'll survive no doubt about that but why damage the country in the first place? As for shutting up why should I? Democracy/freedom of speech is just as much my right as yours. TM is steering us through the storm of our own making when even the destination wasn't decided beforehand. We are unlikely to be able to return if we don't like that destination. If we do we'll lose a lot of the power we hold and special treatment within the EU.


But over and over and over and over and over on and on and on it goes , how we are damaging the country from these so called experts,. How can they b e experts if we have never been in this situation before.
Fact is no one knows no one.


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> Can't think of much else that prevents you notifying in advance you are unable to attend


It's just a total lack of common courtesy...if you were planning to meet someone for lunch/coffee and couldn't make it for whatever reason, you would let the person know, not just leave them hanging around like lemons wondering where you are. An awful lot of people have an overwhelming ''sense of entitlement'' and don't feel they have to account for their actions (or lack of action in some cases).


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Convince me of the advantages of leaving. Rona's right I do not understand the reasoning. People so far haven't provided any credible ones. I'd love to be surprised but I don't trust someone off the street to perform brain surgery. I rely on experts and one thing the majority of experts agree with is that Brexit will damage the UK. We'll survive no doubt about that but why damage the country in the first place? As for shutting up why should I? Democracy/freedom of speech is just as much my right as yours. TM is steering us through the storm of our own making when even the destination wasn't decided beforehand. We are unlikely to be able to return if we don't like that destination. If we do we'll lose a lot of the power we hold and special treatment within the EU.


You go around and around and around in circles. So called "experts" don't know what it is like for the UK to be out of the EU as this hasn't happened yet. What these so called "experts" are spouting is tosh as they wouldn't and couldn't possibly know as it hasn't happened yet. If these so called "experts" are old enough they may remember what the UK was like before it joined the EEC but the world was a different place way back then 40 odd years ago. So you want to believe so called "experts", how are they "experts" when no country has actually left the EU yet?


----------



## Honeys mum

Leave the EU ASAP: Brexit poll shows Britain wants out now | Politics | News | Daily Express

Paul Nuttall: Now we must fight to make sure the PM delivers Brexit | Express Comment | Comment | Daily Express


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> You go around and around and around in circles. So called "experts" don't know what it is like for the UK to be out of the EU as this hasn't happened yet. What these so called "experts" are spouting is tosh as they wouldn't and couldn't possibly know as it hasn't happened yet. If these so called "experts" are old enough they may remember what the UK was like before it joined the EEC but the world was a different place way back then 40 odd years ago. So you want to believe so called "experts", how are they "experts" when no country has actually left the EU yet?


Yeah lets not listen to experts, lets choose to be uninformed & just go with our gut. Great idea lol












Honeys mum said:


> Leave the EU ASAP: Brexit poll shows Britain wants out now | Politics | News | Daily Express
> 
> Paul Nuttall: Now we must fight to make sure the PM delivers Brexit | Express Comment | Comment | Daily Express


This is what Paul Nuttall thinks of our NHS.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Fraid i m to nosey to use the ignore button,. I bounce well too, seldom are my feelings grazed


I keep trying to use the ignore button but find myself de-ignoring people as like you I want to know what people are saying


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Yeah lets not listen to experts, lets choose to be uninformed & just go with our gut. Great idea lol
> 
> View attachment 294484
> 
> 
> This is what Paul Nuttall thinks of our NHS.


But again has a country left the EU yet? No
So where does there so called "expertise" come from. They can't be experts because no country has left the EU yet.
Your poster is from 39-40 years ago. The world has moved on since this and is a different place.

People are impatient and need to let the Brexit department of the Government get on with there job. Parliament have shown they are willing to back TMs timetable for article 50 so are behind her on Brexit (461 in favour only 89 against). The 89 Brexit rebel MPs were 51 from the SNP, 23 Labour, five Lib Dems, three SDLP, three Plaid Cymru, two Independents, one Green -* plus only one Tory*,* ex-Cabinet minister* and Ken Clarke.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> I find it amazing that such a ''high number of patients'' just don't turn up that they feel they have to do this. A friend of mine lives in Norwich and a while ago she heard from her GP that missed appointments would in future be charged...can't remember how much but I thought it was very little. She was horrified; but if you feel better and don't need to see a doctor, ring and tell them that. Either that or you really can't be that ill in the first place if you think, ah, sod it, can't be bothered to walk over there.


I've just had a letter from the Agnes Hunt in Oswestry and that says a missed appointment costs the NHS £160.

I was surprised it was so low.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MilleD said:


> I've just had a letter from the Agnes Hunt in Oswestry and that says a missed appointment costs the NHS £160.
> 
> I was surprised it was so low.


My friend is under pain management clinic at a local hospital and says she gets texts saying it costs the NHS £180 for missed appointments with that department.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> But again has a country left the EU yet? No
> So where does there so called "expertise" come from. They can't be experts because no country has left the EU yet.
> Your poster is from 39-40 years ago. The world has moved on since this and is a different place.


We don't need to have left yet to know that brexit is going to make us poorer. As experts warned a vote to leave would emboldened the far right (not just here). What experts are unable to tell us is exactly how bad things will be. Brexit is about damage limitation.

Doesn't matter how old the poster is. It could not be more relevant in this post truth world we are living in.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We don't need to have left yet to know that brexit is going to make us poorer. As experts warned a vote to leave would emboldened the far right (not just here). What experts are unable to tell us is exactly how bad things will be. Brexit is about damage limitation.


What damage?

The UK markets at close of business yesterday where the strongest in Europe apart from the German DAX which has always been the highest.

The pound might have fallen a little bit but the exchange rates go up and down any way. You may find the pound will go up significantly as we go through the Brexit negotiations but as of yet we aren't even in negotiations yet.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> But again has a country left the EU yet? No
> So where does there so called "expertise" come from. They can't be experts because no country has left the EU yet.


They are the same experts that told us global stock markets would crash, hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost, there would be a punishment budget etc.... in the immediate aftermath of a leave vote. Egg on face all round. And before some cretin says "oh but we haven't left yet"' these calamitous consequences were threatened as a result of a vote to leave, just a vote. The project fear doom-mongers have been flat out wrong so far and there's no reason to assume their prophecies will come to pass in the future either, as much as the remoaners would like the whole thing to sh1t the bed so they can be proved right.


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## Goblin

So comes down to experts who have studied things like economics and people who have negotiated trade deals and know how the systems work vs people who either simply repeat lies, blame scapegoats such as foreigners or go with gut feelings. Says so much. You are right, we haven't left yet, TM has been desparately trying to minimise the additional damage caused which would have happened on handing in article 50 directly after the election as was expected.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So comes down to experts who have studied things like economics and people who have negotiated trade deals and know how the systems work vs people who either simply repeat lies, blame scapegoats such as foreigners or go with gut feelings. Says so much. You are right, we haven't left yet, TM has been desparately trying to minimise the additional damage caused which would have happened on handing in article 50 directly after the election as was expected.


Well the so called "experts" haven't exactly been right so far have they. The doom and gloom they spouted about the Brexit vote ended up being rubbished.

There messages sorrounding the Referendum have been proven wrong and some economists have back tracked on what they said.

Alot of the majority doom and gloom came from Cameron and Osbourne who were ademant that the UK couldn't possibly vote leave and therefore made no back up plan for this eventuality. Remainers believed them and there doom and gloom messages.

The UK public gave there response even the 18 to 25 year olds did (alot of them voted leave as well).

So remainers believe what you want but we are heading towards the Negotiations by the 31st March 2017.

I voted my way because I voted that way.
Like it or not it was after all a free vote.

No one is saying if there will or won't be tough times ahead but we won't know until we actually leave the EU. Remember as well we are tied into paying our contribution to the EU until 2020 a year after the initial EU Negotiations end. I like how the EU tried to get this money out of the UK in advance, but good on TM for rejecting this as we will remain in the EU until we formally leave the EU. Also remember we will continue trading with the EU after we Brexit with or without a deal.

The economic growth forecast has just been revised up: http://news.sky.com/story/economic-growth-for-third-quarter-revised-upwards-to-06-by-ons-10705755


> There was no sign of a Brexit-linked slowdown for the UK economy in the latest revisions to official growth figures.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Well the so called "experts" haven't exactly been right so far have they. The doom and gloom they spouted about the Brexit vote ended up being rubbished.


So the government isn't having to spend money supporting research and the like, despite which research grants have been lost? The doom and gloom is happening and there is evidence of that happening if not on the scale originally pushed. As you keep saying we haven't left yet but the background trend is still there. So tell me, what deal was made with Nissan? What is being promised to the City to prevent them leaving? Prices are generally rising. Debt, not just governmental debt but also personal debt is rising quickly and even before the referendum, the UK had the most debt than any other country in the EU. Even more than countries such as Greece. To lessen the impact of the leave vote the government is spending more, desparately trying to lessen the damage. The country is worse off. That doesn't count the social unrest and division it has caused.



> No one is saying if there will or won't be tough times ahead but we won't know until we actually leave the EU. Remember as well we are tied into paying our contribution to the EU until 2020 a year after the initial EU Negotiations end. I like how the EU tried to get this money out of the UK in advance, but good on TM for rejecting this as we will remain in the EU until we formally leave the EU. Also remember we will continue trading with the EU after we Brexit with or without a deal.


Do you need me to link to companies saying how many jobs are at risk without access to the single market? Of course we also trade a lot with countries you boast are already offering us trade deals. Some of those countries we already have trade deals with as part of the EU which we will likely need to renegotiate. In doing so we may well get less of a better deal as their negotiating position will be far stronger as we alone are weaker.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So the government isn't having to spend money supporting research and the like, despite which research grants have been lost? The doom and gloom is happening and there is evidence of that happening if not on the scale originally pushed. As you keep saying we haven't left yet but the background trend is still there. So tell me, what deal was made with Nissan? What is being promised to the City to prevent them leaving? Prices are generally rising. Debt, not just governmental debt but also personal debt is rising quickly and even before the referendum, the UK had the most debt than any other country in the EU. Even more than countries such as Greece. To lessen the impact of the leave vote the government is spending more. The country is worse off.
> 
> Do you need me to link to companies saying how many jobs are at risk without access to the single market? Of course we also trade a lot with countries you boast are already offering us trade deals. Some of those countries we already have trade deals with as part of the EU which we will likely need to renegotiate. In doing so we may well get less of a better deal as their negotiating position will be far stronger as we alone are weaker.


Where is the doom and gloom then?
The Economic Growth for the UK has been just been revised and put up:


> There was no sign of a Brexit-linked slowdown for the UK economy in the latest revisions to official growth figures.


http://news.sky.com/story/economic-growth-for-third-quarter-revised-upwards-to-06-by-ons-10705755

Companies move around all the time they where doing this well before the Referendum.

Personal debt was rising well before the Referendum was even thought of. Governmental debt will always rise, does in every country around the world.

There was division in the UK before the Referendum was ever contemplated on. I have not noticed any increase in social unrest where I live.

Yes the Government will have to find money to spend on science and technology, but doesn't the EU do this as well as Australia, Canada, USA etc?

The UK won't be weaker.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> We'll bring on the negotiations.
> 
> View attachment 294489


Another reality check for @stockwellcat


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Another reality check for @stockwellcat


Very little faith you have in your own country/country of origin @noushka05 and @Goblin


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Another reality check for @stockwellcat
> 
> View attachment 294495


It's a cartoon @noushka05 from a very negative cartoonist. So how is it a reality check?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Where is the doom and gloom then?
> The Economic Growth for the UK has been just been revised and put up:
> http://news.sky.com/story/economic-growth-for-third-quarter-revised-upwards-to-06-by-ons-10705755


So what was the growth forecast before the referendum? Wait, that means everyone will have more money in the pocket doesn't it? How come that money will actually be less in reality as prices go up?



> Yes the Government will have to find money to spend on science and technology, but doesn't the EU do this as well as Australia, Canada, USA etc?


Where from but then it's not simply about money though is it. It's about getting fresh new perspectives from other people and cooperation across borders. One of the reasons the UK was so strong.



> The UK won't be weaker.


Not according to the experts and that's just financially. The environment, workers rights... Likely to lose far more to lose than simply money.



stockwellcat said:


> Very little faith you have in your own country/country of origin @noushka05 and @Goblin


So that's the card you want to play. Nationalism. I'm a patriot personally. So tell me, when multiple governments fail in so many areas, why do you have faith that when given even more power they'll improve the lot of the average person? What makes you think the government will help the environment? What makes you think workers rights will be protected? The record is hardly inspiring. Even during the campaign Duncan Smith stated workers rights would need to be flexible.

I have faith the UK will make the most of the situation. Why should they be forced to make the most of a bad deal?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So what was the growth forecast before the referendum? Wait, that means everyone will have more money in the pocket doesn't it? How come that money will actually be less in reality as prices go up?
> 
> Not simply about money though is it.
> 
> Not according to the experts and that's just financially. The environment, workers rights... Likely to lose far more to lose than simply money.


----------



## Honeys mum

Here is another good example of Brexit. Something else the experts got wrong.

UK moves up 'best for business' list despite Brexit fears


----------



## Happy Paws2

That's why some of our BIG banks are thinking of moving their headquaters abroad.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Here is another good example of Brexit. Something else the experts got wrong.


So things possibly influenced before Brexit, not because of Brexit. Here's an important part of that report you seem to have missed before claiming credit for Brexit.


> There was no mention of the impact of the Brexit vote.


----------



## Goblin

Happy Paws said:


> That's why some of our BIG banks are thinking of moving their headquaters abroad.


To be fair, many experts don't think that will happen. The part of the EU business lost for not being in the single market is not that great in the overall scheme of the financial services as a whole. There are other arguments to leave though if even a small part of the business moves to continue business. Even a small part is people losing jobs and money lost however. It's up to the companies to decide if other advantages of staying outweigh leaving. Depends I would guess on what influence and deals they can arrange with the UK government. That in itself is bad. International companies, not the public pushing policy. So much for taking back control.

Then again people who are pusing brexit here don't believe anything experts say.


----------



## Goblin




----------



## stockwellcat.

If companies have very little confidence in trading in the UK then why are the UK trading markets the best they have been in a very long time.

22/06/2016 62611900
*23/12/2016 70636800 *(this figure may or may not go up and down throughout the day but you get the point I hope?)

Live updates available here:
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/...ndices/summary/summary-indices.html?index=UKX

The markets are facts that the Economists and so called "experts" are wrong.

You do know that the so called "experts" base there so called "facts" on negativity, negative out comes and IF's, buts and maybe scenarios. They never have much positive to say especially when they get there assumptions wrong.

The real facts are being proven, UK markets are stable and growing not declining, the economic growth index has been amended and is on its way up not down. As you have said before @Goblin Facts, Facts, Facts not assumptions.

The real facts say the economy is growing and the markets are stable and in fact the markets are better than they have been in a very long time.


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> So things possibly influenced before Brexit, not because of Brexit. Here's an important part of that report you seem to have missed before claiming credit for Brexit.


The article states that the UK has moved up the list of the best countries in the world to do business - despite wider fears over how Brexit could hit trade and slow economic growth.

Maybe I could have worded it better. But in my book, we are still doing O.K. despite all the expert remainers saying it would be nothing but doom and gloom.


----------



## Honeys mum

Brexit bashers forced to admit UK economy is 'on the up' with fastest growth for a YEAR | UK | News | Daily Express

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/746290/Brexit-economy-growth-Bank-of-England-Mark-Carney-CBI


----------



## rona

The "experts" have lost some control, of course they will tell us we are wrong. The brainwashing hasn't worked, they pushed it too far to be believable..............................


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> If companies have very little confidence in trading in the UK then why are the UK trading markets the best they have been in a very long time.


I agree, UK is doing better than expected. So explain how has Brexit benefitted companies and contributed to growth at this moment? What we do have are government meetings behind closed doors with companies making deals and giving out promises they may or may not be able to keep. Of course stock market doesn't come as a shock for another reason. Companies approve of anything which strengthen their power and ability to influence governmental policy. Brexit is giving it to them. CBI already approached about which workers rights are "flexible".

Just out of interest. How long do you think it takes to dump stock if things take a turn for the worst? I have no idea but how many people are investing in shortselling, betting companies are going to be doing worse in the long run?



> The facts are being proven, UK markets are stable and growing not declining, the economic growth index has been amended and is on its way up not down.


As you are fond of pointing out, we haven't left yet. Haven't even started negotiating. Remind me again, what is happening to inflation? What effect will that have to GDP and the money in people's pockets? The exchange rate can certainly be tied to Brexit. Ministers mention hard brexit, sterling get's hit. Talks of inclusion to the single market or transitional deals tying UK in with the EU, sterling rallies. This indicates far better than the stock market what the world thinks of the viability of the UK economy as a whole.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I agree, UK is doing better than expected. So explain how has Brexit benefitted companies and contributed to growth at this moment? What we do have are government meetings behind closed doors with companies making deals and giving out promises they may or may not be able to keep. Of course stock market doesn't come as a shock for another reason. Companies approve of anything which strengthen their power and ability to influence governmental policy. Brexit is giving it to them. CBI already approached about which workers rights are "flexible".
> 
> As you are fond of pointing out, we haven't left yet. Haven't even started negotiating. Remind me again, what is happening to inflation? What effect will that have to GDP and the money in people's pockets? The exchange rate can certainly be tied to Brexit. Ministers mention hard brexit, sterling get's hit. Talks of inclusion to the single market or transitional deals tying UK in with the EU, sterling rallies. This indicates far better than the stock market what the world thinks of the viability of the UK economy as a whole.


Here we go again....

The pound sterling will go up and down and when it is up has at points been stronger than the Euro and when it has been low it has been lower than the Euro and dollar at times. Currencies fluxuate all the time. You forget the Euro when it came out on the currency market was terrible on the exchange market. You will find when we enter into the negotiations this will be the true test of the UK currency and European currency. So we'll see in spring next year onwards.

The markets are very important at the moment as it shows businesses have confidence in the UK and to run businesses from here.

UK GDP is higher than previously was and is at the new forecasted amount.
Was 5%
Actual 6%
Forecasted 6%
Consensus 5%
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth

The markets have closed now until after the Christmas holidays.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Here we go again....
> 
> The pound sterling will go up and down and when it is up has at points been stronger than the Euro and when it has been low it has been lower than the Euro and dollar at times.


Currencies fluctuate true. Direct correlation.. Mention Hard brexit.. sterling tumbles. Single market access - sterling recovers. This direct correlation cannot be dismissed as you are trying to do.



> The markets are very important at the moment as it shows businesses have confidence in the UK and to run businesses from here.


Stock market is about investors making money and not necessarily long term. Business confidence has little to do with it.


----------



## KittenKong

Anyone else see the small business owner hit hard by the fall of sterling on a BBC news feature recently?

In spite of that he still backs Brexit and would be happy to sacrifice his business for it!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Currencies fluctuate true. Direct correlation.. Mention Hard brexit.. sterling tumbles. Single market access - sterling recovers. This direct correlation cannot be dismissed as you are trying to do.
> 
> Stock market is about investors making money and not necessarily long term. Business confidence has little to do with it.


Well the sterling will tumble at the moment with the mentioning of Hard Brexit and Single Market until we enter negotiations and know exactly what is on offer etc. The good news is the sterling always recovers though. But as you heard from the lips of EU leaders there is no such thing as hard Brexit or soft Brexit, we are either leaving or staying in through the back door. I'd prefer leaving with no feet in the back door.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Anyone else see the small business owner hit hard by the fall of sterling on a BBC news feature recently?
> 
> In spite of that he still backs Brexit and would be happy to sacrifice his business for it!


No but I've risked my pension and I think it's worth it.

Why was he so adamant?


----------



## stockwellcat.

​


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Why was he so adamant?


I suppose it's something he passionately believes in. I can understand that even if my own beliefs are the opposite.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 294516
> 
> 2017 Estimates provided by IMF. GDP based on PPP.
> ​


I admire your tenacity if not always the contents of your posts. 
My posts are just flippant now I'm so bored of it all. I can't see how any of this is helping anyone

Maybe a few egos


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> But again has a country left the EU yet? No
> So where does there so called "expertise" come from. They can't be experts because no country has left the EU yet.
> Your poster is from 39-40 years ago. The world has moved on since this and is a different place.
> 
> People are impatient and need to let the Brexit department of the Government get on with there job. Parliament have shown they are willing to back TMs timetable for article 50 so are behind her on Brexit (461 in favour only 89 against). The 89 Brexit rebel MPs were 51 from the SNP, 23 Labour, five Lib Dems, three SDLP, three Plaid Cymru, two Independents, one Green -* plus only one Tory*,* ex-Cabinet minister* and Ken Clarke.


Erm! Take it you didn't heard the pissed up old fart Clarke on the radio the other day then?
Don't know which tune he's dancing to theses days!


----------



## 1290423

Well! Fraid I'm goin have to leave you too it!
This turkey ain't gonna pluck itself


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Erm! Take it you didn't heard the pissed up old fart Clarke on the radio the other day then?
> Don't know which tune he's dancing to theses days!


Give me one good reason why I should have listened to him on the radio the other day?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Well! Fraid I'm goin have to leave you too it!
> This turkey ain't gonna pluck itself


What you haven't plucked your turkey yet?
I didn't have to it is already done and basted, just need to wait for it to defrost/thaw so I can cook it.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
a few more "facts, facts, FACTS...":
.
- 'there' is not a possessive adjective.
It refers to a place that isn't 'here'; for ex, "this is here, that is *there*."
.
- 'thEIr' is a possessive adjective,
as in, "their beliefs are not mine."
'Their' is gender-neutral & can be used to refer to multiple persons or an unspecified or unknown individual; specific person's belongings are usually designated 'her' or 'his', whichever is preferred, but some transgender or Q persons prefer 'their'.
.
.
.


----------



## Gemmaa

Jeebs, this thread has been going since May 4th! Congratulations on it not being locked yet. 

Will there be a Christmas truce?


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Zaros

leashedForLife said:


> .
> a few more "facts, facts, FACTS...":
> .
> - 'there' is not a possessive adjective.
> It refers to a place that isn't 'here'; for ex, "this is here, that is *there*."
> .
> - 'thEIr' is a possessive adjective,
> as in, "their beliefs are not mine."
> 'Their' is gender-neutral & can be used to refer to multiple persons or an unspecified or unknown individual; specific person's belongings are usually designated 'her' or 'his', whichever is preferred, but some transgender or Q persons prefer 'their'.
> 
> .


 Fancy, an American attempting to teach English.....to the English.

That's a bit like the McCanns giving out tips on babysitting :Facepalm


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Right! Dons hard hat and digs out bovver boots!
> Fact is we will never know how much could have been put back into the NHS!
> That being due to the government not really having a free hand and having to cowtow to the MPs and the remain voters by way of a soft brexit.
> Personally, I think if we could have had a hell of a lot more to put back then was quoted!
> Had we have had a leader with a pAir of balls, there has only been two Churchill and thatcher, we may have lived to find out but sadly the goal post keeps moving!
> We should, and it appears we can, have left immediately, we should have gone for the hard brexit. Those working here should be allowed to remain on provision that they were financially stable and on no social benifits what so ever, that includes both I work benifits and out of work benifits, social housing, family allowance, child care nothing! And no way should they be allowed to send benefits home, would even look at not allowing them social housing! Medical care would be pAid for with private medical insurance, there would be no translators in hospitals, and if your children can't speak English then they don't go to school! I would allow schooling. But that's about it!
> 
> Imagine how much we would save paying our no rent top ups. No family allowance. No allowance for children back home, no tax credits, no free prescriptions, no free health care!
> Anyone in prison would be exported immediately to their mother land, irrespective of whether they feared for their safety or not. I would get all the beggars and homeless off the streets, our own would be given hostel beds, others would be sent home.
> I'd get our own idle long term unemployed back in work, no worky , no benifit simples.
> But you say, what about our own people overseas
> Sorry but I'm bothered about here not overseas, but would like to think that Brits living overseas would be supplemented by their employers or would at the least be financially stable.
> Someone working here from overseas whyo loses their job for no fault of their own then special allowances should be made in the way of benefits upto say one year.
> I would maybe tweak a little but not much!
> DT runs and hides


I'm not going to point out why a lot of this would be economically disastrous and socially impossible. I'll just say that I find it extremely sad that anyone should think this way and that at least 4 people actually liked it.

I will only trust that most people don't feel this way, because otherwise I have little hope for the future.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Very little faith you have in your own country/country of origin @noushka05 and @Goblin


Probably because I don't have blind faith like you do 



stockwellcat said:


> It's a cartoon @noushka05 from a very negative cartoonist. So how is it a reality check?


At least my negative cartoon has a factual basis. I see you've removed your purely emotive cartoon lol. Nationalism doesn't push my buttons I'm afraid.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Brexit bashers forced to admit UK economy is 'on the up' with fastest growth for a YEAR | UK | News | Daily Express


The Express is one of the worst manipulators of facts. Perhaps you should read the actual CBI report? Which is clearly written, based on extensive talks with affected businesses, makes it clear what a nightmare we face. http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/making-a-success-of-brexit/


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Why do you claim TM is causing damage to the country? I'm no fan of hers but she was selected to steer us through the storm.
> If you lot would just shut up and let her get in with it maybe you'd be surprised at the outcome.
> You continue to slate us who voted out claiming t we we led by the press, the false figures promised to the NHS etc etc etc blah blah blah. Respect cuts two ways! Fact


Private Eye reveals May's 10 point brexit plan


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Private Eye reveals May's 10 point brexit plan
> 
> View attachment 294674












Well it's up to you but like Goblin you are going around and around in circles


















Seriously...
So you take the Private Eye as fact?









I'll leave you to spout rubbish.

Merry Christmas.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 294675
> 
> 
> Well it's up to you but like Goblin you are going around and around in circles
> 
> View attachment 294676
> 
> View attachment 294677
> 
> 
> Seriously...
> So you take the Private Eye as fact?
> View attachment 294675
> 
> 
> I'll leave you to spout rubbish.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


Merry Christmas.

Here's a nice festive one for you

*
Confirmation that turkeys have voted for Christmas by 52% to 48%.*


----------



## cheekyscrip

There is no plan to reveal. They are waiting to see what EU would do.
Does EU have a plan? Think they are waiting for UK to come up with something.They have other worries right now.
If it was about economy ..but it would be about politics.
If it was about economy there would be no Brexit.
As far as economy goes it is bad for both sides.
I am afraid we will go cold turkey.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*How long is left until Article 50 is Triggered:*



Refresh page to update timer


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> *How long is left until Article 50 is Triggered:*
> 
> 
> 
> Refresh page to update timer


It is like meeting with Death Star.
Plus did they establish it is irrevocable?
So UK has to leave no matter what terms given or no terms at all.
It is


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> It is like meeting with Death Star.
> Plus did they establish it is irrevocable?
> So UK has to leave no matter what terms given or no terms at all.
> It is


The speech NS (Sturgeon) done the other day about staying in the single market got a response and NS was highly embarrassed. Spain said they are going to veto any attempt of Scotland remaining in the EU and giving them a separate deal. Spain said that the UK leaves as the UK as a whole.

Of course it isn't reversible, do you really think the EU will let us change our minds. In the articles it says we have to leave first and then apply to rejoin the EU. If no deal is struck we'll end up falling back on WTO rules and continue trading with the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.snp.org/scotland_brexit_plan_what_you_need_to_know?mc_cid=778eb12b98&mc_eid=6cdf3c87b8

Good plan I think!


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38417101

She must be joking! I have better things to do than celebrate the Queen's 90th birthday and the success at the Olympics!

At least Prince Charles is talking sense. I'm not a royalist but will always give credit where it's due:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38401857


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> The Express is one of the worst manipulators of facts. Perhaps you should read the actual CBI report? Which is clearly written, based on extensive talks with affected businesses, makes it clear what a nightmare we face. http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/making-a-success-of-brexit/


I have read it thankyou, but I wonder if you have read the article in the Express I posted with says as follows

CBI principal economist Alpesh Paleja said: "It's great to see the economy end the year on the up with growth strengthening across the private sector."

He added that firms "want to work together to develop a post-Brexit economy that sustains growth and prosperity for all".

His comments come after the recently published CBI report found that 17 per cent of manufacturing and retail firms reported growth - the highest figure for 12 months.

The Confederation of British Industry (CBI) admitted UK firms were growing at their fastest rate for 12 months, while the Bank of England said consumer spending, lending by banks and housebuilding were on the increase towards the end of the year.

The CBI and the Bank of England warned Britons against voting to leave the EU in the run-up to the referendum but both have now been forced to concede the post-Brexit economy is doing better than most Remoaners expected.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> The Confederation of British Industry (CBI) admitted UK firms were growing at their fastest rate for 12 months, while the Bank of England said consumer spending, lending by banks and housebuilding were on the increase towards the end of the year.
> 
> The CBI and the Bank of England warned Britons against voting to leave the EU in the run-up to the referendum but both have now been forced to concede the post-Brexit economy is doing better than most Remoaners expected.


So just how much of that is due to Brexit? How much of that is despite Brexit? We do know jobs have been lost, research has been lost etc directly due to Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> I have read it thankyou, but I wonder if you have read the article in the Express I posted with says as follows
> 
> The CBI and the Bank of England warned Britons against voting to leave the EU in the run-up to the referendum but both have now been forced to concede the post-Brexit economy is doing better than most Remoaners expected.


Did the CBI actually say this? I doubt very much they would have resorted to calling 48% of those who voted "Remoaners"!!!

Say no more.......


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> http://www.snp.org/scotland_brexit_plan_what_you_need_to_know?mc_cid=778eb12b98&mc_eid=6cdf3c87b8
> 
> Good plan I think!


Spain rejects Sturgeon's bespoke Brexit deal for Scotland:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...9_s_idea_of_bespoke_Brexit_deal_for_Scotland/

*THE Spanish government has poured cold water on Nicola Sturgeon's proposal for a bespoke deal for Scotland* if the rest of the UK leaves the EU in a hard Brexit.

The First Minister launched a detailed 62-page blueprint earlier this week on how Scotland might be able to stay in the EU single market, even if the rest of the UK were outside it.

She acknowledged the idea, in which Scotland relationship to the single market would be akin to that of Norway, would require considerable help from the UK and the other EU states.

However Jorge Toledo, the Spanish secretary of state for the European Union, was reported yesterday as saying: "*If the UK leaves the single market, the whole UK will leave the single market*. There is only one negotiator, the UK government."

*Madrid is opposed to a distinct Brexit deal for Scotland* - just as it opposed Scottish independence in 2014 - in case it encourages its own separatist movement in Catalonia.

Another hurdle for Ms Sturgeon is that the UK government would need to prioritise Scotland over some of its own domestic demands in negotiations with the other 27 EU nations.

Prime Minister Theresa May said earlier this week that she would consider the SNP government's proposal, but also said it may be "impractical".

*Chancellor Philip Hammond said earlier this month there could not be a different Brexit deal for Scotland or any other part of the UK, and a bespoke arrangement was "not realistic".*


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Did the CBI actually say this? I doubt very much they would have resorted to calling 48% of those who voted "Remoaners"!!!
> 
> Say no more.......


Perhaps English isn't your first language? @Honeys mum 's post does not say, nor imply, that the CBI called anybody Remoaners.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> I have read it thankyou, but I wonder if you have read the article in the Express I posted with says as follows
> 
> CBI principal economist Alpesh Paleja said: "It's great to see the economy end the year on the up with growth strengthening across the private sector."
> 
> He added that firms "want to work together to develop a post-Brexit economy that sustains growth and prosperity for all".
> 
> His comments come after the recently published CBI report found that 17 per cent of manufacturing and retail firms reported growth - the highest figure for 12 months.
> 
> The Confederation of British Industry (CBI) admitted UK firms were growing at their fastest rate for 12 months, while the Bank of England said consumer spending, lending by banks and housebuilding were on the increase towards the end of the year.
> 
> The CBI and the Bank of England warned Britons against voting to leave the EU in the run-up to the referendum but both have now been forced to concede the post-Brexit economy is doing better than most Remoaners expected.


Did it say what the economy would be doing had the vote been to remain?


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Spain rejects Sturgeon's bespoke Brexit deal for Scotland:
> 
> http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...9_s_idea_of_bespoke_Brexit_deal_for_Scotland/
> 
> *THE Spanish government has poured cold water on Nicola Sturgeon's ".*


Duh! Only cold water


----------



## 1290423

Could anyone please explain to me please, in big writing, why the economic growth for the last three months is up according to figures


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Could anyone please explain to me please, in big writing, why the economic growth for the last three months is up according to figures


It doesn't matter what the actual facts are they will still find a negative view of things.

You are right though that the Markets and Economic Growth are on there way up and the FTSE (UK market) has been the best it has been for a long time.

But I surrender temporarily as it's Christmas tomorrow:









And I can't be ar*ed debating/arguing with the negative remainers on here over Christmas.

Cheer yourself up look at post #3027 on this page as it shows how many days maximum we have until article 50 is invoked.


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> Did it say what the economy would be doing had the vote been to remain?


No need to be sarcastic and I am not being rude. If you read the article, you will know it didn't. But what they are saying,(which I'm sure you know) is that in spite of Brexit the economic growth has gone up.

Merry Christmas.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Did the CBI actually say this? I doubt very much they would have resorted to calling 48% of those who voted "Remoaners"!!!
> 
> Say no more......


That would be a very good idea Kittenkong, as you obviously haven't read my post properly, as Satori has already pointed out to you.( Thankyou Satori)


----------



## KittenKong

Yes I did read it actually, yet I'm sceptical about what the UKIP backing Brexcess say.

Anything that reverts to name calling of opponents to their writings gets the thumbs down automatically.

They are Brextremists, I am the exact opposite.

I will fight to remain part of the European community on a personal level at least even if the government and the EU itself decide otherwise.

Having said that I recognise while Brexit fills me with absolute horror it would be wrong of me to dictate my point of view to others.

That's why a compromise is needed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

:Muted

I am saying no more on this topic as it doesn't matter what facts are presented to the remainers they will still moan. I am not giving up but what's the point of going around in circles on this topic.


----------



## KittenKong

Some great posts courtesy of the SABRE site:

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36226&start=3420

The links won't work as they are screenshots.


----------



## CuddleMonster

stockwellcat said:


> :Muted
> 
> I am saying no more on this topic as it doesn't matter what facts are presented to the remainers they will still moan. I am not giving up but what's the point of going around in circles on this topic.


I have mentioned this before, but could everyone please stop talking about 'the remainers' moaning. Or even worse, 'remoaners'. I voted remain, was disappointed with the result, but am hoping that Brexit will work out for the best - how is that moaning?


----------



## KittenKong

CuddleMonster said:


> I have mentioned this before, but could everyone please stop talking about 'the remainers' moaning. Or even worse, 'remoaners'. I voted remain, was disappointed with the result, but am hoping that Brexit will work out for the best - how is that moaning?


Name calling now. They'll be accusing the 48% that voted "anti British" next. I guess they have nothing better to do and shows the mentality of the newspapers that use such terms.

Something that has occurred to me recently though. Many hard line Brexit supporters were devotees of Margaret Thatcher when she was Prime Minister.

Has it ever been considered why Mrs Thatcher never held an in-out referendum during her 11 years in power?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Name calling now. They'll be accusing the 48% that voted "anti British" next. I guess they have nothing better to do and shows the mentality of the newspapers that use such terms.





KittenKong said:


> Anything that reverts to name calling of opponents to their writings gets the thumbs down automatically.
> 
> They are Brextremists, I am the exact opposite.


Really?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Really?


I am the exact opposite in the sense I'm very strongly anti Brexit and a supporter of the EU. Long may it live.

Unlike most Brexit supporters I don't attempt to alter their way of thinking at least intentionally, nor try to put those down who disagree with my views unlike some I could mention.

Some Brexit supporters think, due to me being white English automatically think I'll be pro Brexit. It comes as a shock to them when I politely tell them I'm not.

What's done is done and there's no way the clock can be turned back.

That's why I suggest a compromise.
Will hard Brexit supporters go along with this too?

That I doubt very much.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Ok @KittenKong if you want a compromise let this thread go and nothing else would be said of it. I personally have nothing else to contribute to this thread as it is going around in circles as we know how each other feels but to keep resurrecting this thread is getting silly. No one knows what will happen until the UK gets around the negotiationing table next year.

I understand you are a hard-line remainer and appreciate that and I am a hard-line leave supporter. Let's just leave it there.

Truce?


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...order_in_ireland_1_4822455?platform=hootsuite


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> No need to be sarcastic and I am not being rude. If you read the article, you will know it didn't. But what they are saying,(which I'm sure you know) is that in spite of Brexit the economic growth has gone up.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


No sarcasm intended; apologies if it came across that way.

The point is that while some eminent people talked about a recession - which is still a possibility over the next 2 years and beyond, depending on how things go - that was always the lower end of the range of economic possibilities. Of course they used the lower end as a warning, because 'Growth Will Slow Down!' is an even worse soundbite than the ones they came up with.

But now, of course, many supporters of Brexit, especially the likes of the Express, point to 0.5 or 0.6 % growth and acclaim it as proof that Brexit, or the vote, has done nothing to harm the economy and throwing abuse at the 'scaremongers' who predicted 'doom'. There is no consideration that without the Brexit vote the economy might have grown 0.8 or 0.9%. And there can't be because we live in just one reality, one possible time path, and comparison with another is impossible.

It is also forgotten that immediately after the vote QE was extended and the interest rate was lowered to 0.25%, both to stimulate the economy.

So what we can't sensibly do is claim that the Remainers were wrong and that the vote has had no effect 'because the economy has grown'.


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> No sarcasm intended; apologies if it came across that way.


Thankyou Arnie83.



Arnie83 said:


> So what we can't sensibly do is claim that the Remainers were wrong and that the vote has had no effect 'because the economy has grown'.


Sorry if my post came across wrong, but nowhere did I say that the economic growth had gone up because of brexit.The newspaper article stated that in spite of Brexit it had still gone up.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> Thankyou Arnie83.
> 
> Sorry if my post came across wrong, but nowhere did I say that the economic growth had gone up because of brexit.The newspaper article stated that in spite of Brexit it had still gone up.


The paper, as does the Sun etc..report of "Brexit Boosts". The latter paper went as far as to say Brexit will save lives!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Anyone can embed the link? 
Wonder how Farage and all those who cheered when DT was elected feel about it?


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...-donald-trumps-trade-aide-declares/ar-BBxyGJP

With please Cheeky.

There was a link to a similar report on the SABRE site from The Sun of all papers.

That's the thing to remember about Nationalism. Trump and his team are too busy making America great again to worry about other countries they see inferior to them, just as Farage and the government look at their former EU allies.


----------



## cheekyscrip

T


KittenKong said:


> http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...-donald-trumps-trade-aide-declares/ar-BBxyGJP
> 
> With please Cheeky.
> 
> There was a link to a similar report on the SABRE site from The Sun of all papers.
> 
> That's the thing to remember about Nationalism. Trump and his team are too busy making America great again to worry about other countries they see inferior to them, just as Farage and the government look at their former EU allies.
> 
> View attachment 295407


They will not see it until the damage is done. New York is very attractive since DT promised lower corporate tax .
Malta and Ireland have English as official language if anyone needs to relocate to EU


----------



## leashedForLife

.
the Trumpster also wants to install across-the-board import tariffs, 5% is being touted.
.
how would 5% added to UK goods as an entry-fee affect sales to the U-S?
.
how would slapping a universal tariff on all US-imports affect the U.K. / U.S. "special relationship"?
Apparently it's not so special that UK exports to us would be exempted.

.
in UK news, the European Medicines Agency, which signed a 25-yr lease in London 2-yrs ago, will be relocating.
They generate a lotta revenue for their host country; on most weekdays, their drug experts take up 350 London hotel rooms, & i'm sure they eat, drink, & amuse themselves while there.
.
it isn't only London, or only the UK, that will be affected.
The uncertainty about *where* the EU agency will be, is affecting its workforce. Pharmacologic experts on their staff are being hired away; replacements are difficult to get, with HQ uncertain.
.
medication safety is a huge responsibility, & a lapse or a Rx crisis while the EMA is in transition coud be disastrous.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## leashedForLife

.
pardon me for not laughing, as i can't watch the vid-clip - i can only see the title.
.
the instantly-sobering reality is that the man **Is!** a walking, talking parody of a U-S President... which is both horrifying & depressing.

the electors of the Electoral College opted NOT to make history & defect from the states-votes, so that national representatives would be forced to choose an alternative.
That also means they ignored their "checks & balances" function, to act as an emergency-brake if an utterly unsuitable candidate wins the Electoral majority.
.
if Trumpling isn't an *unsuitable* choice as Prez-elect, who in H*** would be?!...
David Duke, ex- Grand Dragon of the KKK?
some other white-nationalist nutcase?
I cannot fathom how the electors justified their failure to act, & defend the nation & the world at large from the whims of an erratic, grudge-bearing, ethics-free imitation of a 'businessman'.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> .
> *the electors of the Electoral College opted NOT to make history* & defect from the states-votes, so that national representatives would be forced to choose an alternative.
> .


I beg to differ:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/19/electoral-college-votes-donald-trump-electors

*19/12/2016*
*Electoral college formally elects Donald Trump as president*
The denouement of the 2016 election came on Monday, as electors in all 50 states and the District of Columbia formally elected Donald Trump as president of the United States.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


>


Lol. "We'll deport all our criminals. Taxes will be minimal...."


----------



## Satori

leashedForLife said:


> .
> I cannot fathom how the electors justified their failure to act,


Yes you can.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Lol. *"We'll deport all our criminals.* Taxes will be minimal...."


He's going to deport them to Mexico, that's why he wants that wall up as soon as possible 

25 Days (20th January 2017) he gets inaugurated and will become the 45th American President.

Oops I better be quiet otherwise I'll have the American posters leaping at me and the UK remainers :Muted


----------



## KittenKong

Well there's always the option to become an annex of the US, a satellite state if you like.

May's plan for a red, white and blue Brexit will still apply as the stars and stripes are indeed, red white and blue, ahem...


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Well there's always the option to become an annex of the US, a satellite state if you like.
> 
> May's plan for a red, white and blue Brexit will still apply as the stars and stripes are indeed, red white and blue, ahem...


Preferable to








You all know whose flag it is....


----------



## rona




----------



## Guest

stockwellcat said:


> He's going to deport them to Mexico, that's why he wants that wall up as soon as possible
> 
> 25 Days (20th January 2017) he gets inaugurated and will become the 45th American President.
> 
> Oops I better be quiet otherwise I'll have the American posters leaping at me and the UK remainers :Muted


No, you should be quiet because according to you if you don't live in that country you don't get a say on what happens there


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Preferable to
> View attachment 295497
> 
> You all know whose flag it is....


I'd rather be in the UK within the EU though!

Excellent Norwegian drama on Netflix at the moment, titled "Occupied". Set in the near future it's about a certain superpower occupying the country.


----------



## stockwellcat.

ouesi said:


> No, you should be quiet because according to you if you don't live in that country you don't get a say on what happens there


:Nailbiting
:Blackeye


:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

@rona :Hilarious

Here's a puzzle - What flag is this ? I was born here and live here yet it doesn't exist now.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
Stockwell, plz clean those glasses, dear?...
U cannot "beg to differ" when i'd already posted how disappointed i was in our state Electors for *failing* to act & respond to the many on-line petitions with thousands of signatures, handwritten letters, peaceful protests, phone calls, & more from their own state constituencies, asking them NOT to meekly rubber-stamp Trumpster's E-C margin, but instead to fulfill their Constitutional purpose & prevent a disastrous candidate from taking office.
.

yes - obv, i knew the Electors *had* voted to install the Hair-Don't, despite pleas from the state's residents they claim to represent, despite their "checks & balances" raison de tre, despite the dam*ing evidence of their own eyes & ears that The Great Comb-Over is a confidence man, a bully, a bigot, a misogynist, an ignorant throwback to the 1930s mindset of "taking care of our own, within our own borders, & let those without take care of themselves".
.
We couldn't do that, *then*.
The U-S entered into WW-2 extremely reluctantly when our government was forced to admit that we must act - not only for ourselves as a nation, but to defend other nations.
The world does not end at our borders; U-S interests are inextricably bound-up & intertwined with those of all other nations on Earth, now more than ever.
.
failed states like Somalia have knock-on effects around the world; air pollution ignores national boundaries, climate instability affects every living creature on the planet, & national leaders, solo or Parliamentary, affect all the other nations.
The world is a smaller place, today, a more interconnected place than ever in its history - & the Electors who cravenly shirked their duty to protect our republic from an incompetent *will*, mark my words, truly live to regret their failure to act responsibly.
They were the final potential safety-net, & they failed their duty.

.
More than the U-S is at risk in the next 4-years; the world is on a roller-coaster, just cresting the rise & beginning to hurtle down the slope, uncontrollably.
The U-S is only 1 car in the string, but we're all going over the top & headed down.
Whether we will all derail disastrously, no one can say - but it's gonna be a terrifying ride, with right-wing nationalist fervor in the seats of power in many nations.

I wish i had not lived to see these days.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> .
> *Stockwell, plz clean those glasses, dear?...*


I clean them every day*.







*
Do you want to know a secret?
I get put off reading really long threads that could have there point made in a few short sentences or paragraphs 

And yes* @cheekyscrip *this one too (it doesn't always have alcohol in it sometimes it has orange juice in it sometimes it has water in it) *







*


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> @rona :Hilarious
> 
> Here's a puzzle - What flag is this ? I was born here and live here yet it doesn't exist now.


https://www.theflagshop.co.uk/middlesex-county-flag.html 

Google is your friend 

Mine is this one 
https://www.theflagshop.co.uk/west-sussex-flag.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> .
> *The U-S entered into WW-2 extremely reluctantly* when our government was forced to admit that we must act - not only for ourselves as a nation, but to defend other nations.
> .


Did you ever do history lessons at school?

Ever watched the History Channel programmes on the second world war?

America entered the Second world war because Japan bombed Perl harbour on December 7 1941, that was the turning point for America. America helped the UK during the war with supplies but there supply ships kept getting sunk by German U-boats and Hitler did declare war on America on December 11th 1941 in an 88 minute long speech.

It wasn't the UKs fault the second world war started you know. Some lunatic in Germany called the shots declaring war with those countries that wouldn't willingly bow to his demands of Germanisation and Nazification.

Britain stood firm against this tyrant who the German people worshipped and glorified back then and where silly enough to fall for and believe.

So it wasn't reluctance that America entered the second world war. If you believe it was reluctance the USA entered the second world war then I'll put it to you the UK didn't want to go to war either by the way. We entered the war not through choice..


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Did you ever do history lessons at school?
> 
> Ever watched the History Channel programmes on the second world war?
> 
> America entered the Second world war because Japan bombed Perl harbour on December 7 1941, that was the turning point for America. America helped the UK during the war with supplies but there supply ships kept getting sunk by German U-boats and Hitler did declare war on America on December 11th 1941 in an 88 minute long speech.
> 
> It wasn't the UKs fault the second world war started you know. Some lunatic in Germany called the shots declaring war with those countries that wouldn't willingly bow to his demands of Germanisation and Nazification.
> 
> Britain stood firm against this tyrant who the German people worshipped and glorified back then and where silly enough to fall for and believe.
> 
> So it wasn't reluctance that America entered the second world war. If you believe it was reluctance the USA entered the second world war then I'll put it to you the UK didn't want to go to war either by the way. We entered the war not through choice..


And the far right are rising again. Both here, right across Europe & in the USA. What would our forebears, who sacrificed so much fighting fascism, think now?


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> http://www.snp.org/scotland_brexit_plan_what_you_need_to_know?mc_cid=778eb12b98&mc_eid=6cdf3c87b8
> 
> Good plan I think!


Reminded me of this:Hilarious

After Nicola Sturgeon publishes detailed,
62-page Brexit proposal on "Scotland's Place in Europe",
Theresa May responds with her own plan.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> And the far right are rising again. Both here, right across Europe & in the USA. What would our forebears, who sacrificed so much fighting fascism, think now?


Fascism, far rights groups where on the rise well before the Referendum in the UK. The Brexit vote is being blamed for many things @noushka05, but it was only a Referendum vote. I am not being naive but we haven't even entered negotiations yet.



noushka05 said:


> Reminded me of this:Hilarious
> 
> After Nicola Sturgeon publishes detailed,
> 62-page Brexit proposal on "Scotland's Place in Europe",
> Theresa May responds with her own plan.
> 
> View attachment 295537


You have lovely handwriting @noushka05

I found this bit of paper:








(The above piece of paper is what I wrote, if you wondered where it came from)

The Queen has been making her voice heard apparently as she wants to know what the plan is as well as she wants Brexit to happen and wants the UK out of the EU and wants the UK to severe all ties with the EU. She gave her Royal Approval afterall for the Referendum.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> I have read it thankyou, but I wonder if you have read the article in the Express I posted with says as follows
> 
> CBI principal economist Alpesh Paleja said: "It's great to see the economy end the year on the up with growth strengthening across the private sector."
> 
> He added that firms "want to work together to develop a post-Brexit economy that sustains growth and prosperity for all".
> 
> His comments come after the recently published CBI report found that 17 per cent of manufacturing and retail firms reported growth - the highest figure for 12 months.
> 
> The Confederation of British Industry (CBI) admitted UK firms were growing at their fastest rate for 12 months, while the Bank of England said consumer spending, lending by banks and housebuilding were on the increase towards the end of the year.
> 
> The CBI and the Bank of England warned Britons against voting to leave the EU in the run-up to the referendum but both have now been forced to concede the post-Brexit economy is doing better than most Remoaners expected.


If you've read it then surely you accept the CBI report is a list of very significant concerns?

This is a perfect example of what gutter rags like the Expresss do. They deliberately mislead their readers by taking things out of context. They distort the facts to feed their readers lies.

Please take a look at the original source. http://htl.li/9Tvs307iiKF

What the Express cherry picks -
CBI principal economist Alpesh Paleja said: "It's great to see the economy end the year on the up with growth strengthening across the private sector."

He added that firms "want to work together to develop a post-Brexit economy that sustains growth and prosperity for all".

And now the full quote in context with omissions added  -

*"It's great to see the economy end the year on the up, with growth strengthening across the private sector*.

*"However, economic growth is likely to soften next year, as heightened uncertainty hits business investment and higher inflation weighs on household spending.*

*"With the fresh slate of a New Year on the horizon, British businesses will be looking to the Government for as much clarity as possible on upcoming EU negotiations, and want to work together to develop a post-Brexit economy that sustains growth and prosperity for* all

This is why in this post truth era it has never been more important to fact check. Or we succumb to brainwashing.

.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> And the far right are rising again. Both here, right across Europe & in the USA. What would our forebears, who sacrificed so much fighting fascism, think now?


All for what? If anyone hasn't watched the BBC tv documentary, "The Nazis- A Warning From History" I recommend they do so.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> All for what? If anyone hasn't watched the BBC tv documentary, "The Nazis- A Warning From History" I recommend they do so.


We're living in very dangerous times when ordinary people cannot seem to recognise the growing fascism in our midst - some are actually cheering it along. Can you imagine wanting far right parties to succeed? Its terrifying.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see someone else has voted *'Definitely Out'* taking the leave supporters to 100 on here.


----------



## samuelsmiles

I do get a bit peeved with this 'fascism' connotation in relation to the UK and the Conservatives. I don't think there can be too many countries in the world that give us the freedoms that we have here. True fascism was quickly trampled on in the 30's in the UK when it probably had its best chance of success.

Whatever, this interview is absolutely spellbinding - Mosley did have charisma.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> I do get a bit peeved with this 'fascism' connote
> 
> tion in relation to the UK and the Conservatives. I don't think there can be too many countries in the world that give us the freedoms that we have here. True fascism was quickly trampled on in the 30's in the UK when it probably had its best chance of success.
> 
> Whatever, this interview is absolutely spellbinding - Mosley did have charisma.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> The Express is one of the worst manipulators of facts. Perhaps you should read the actual CBI report? Which is clearly written, based on extensive talks with affected businesses, makes it clear what a nightmare we face. http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/making-a-success-of-brexit/





noushka05 said:


> This is a perfect example of what gutter rags like the Expresss do. They deliberately mislead their readers by taking things out of context. They distort the facts to feed their readers lies.


You have already quoted this days ago noushka05. Please don't keep repeating yourself to me. I really think it's time this thread was closed, all you do is keep going round in circles.
The leave votes won, lets just accept that and wait and see what happens if and when we come out of the E.U.

Happy new year.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We're living in very dangerous times when ordinary people cannot seem to recognise the growing fascism in our midst - some are actually cheering it along. Can you imagine wanting far right parties to succeed? Its terrifying.


It's not dangerous times because of the rise in the far right parties, try terrorism in the form of ISIS.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> I do get a bit peeved with this 'fascism' connotation in relation to the UK and the Conservatives. I don't think there can be too many countries in the world that give us the freedoms that we have here. True fascism was quickly trampled on in the 30's in the UK when it probably had its best chance of success.
> 
> Whatever, this interview is absolutely spellbinding - Mosley did have charisma.





Honeys mum said:


> You have already quoted this days ago noushka05. Please don't keep repeating yourself to me. I really think it's time this thread was closed, all you do is keep going round in circles.
> The leave votes won, lets just accept that and wait and see what happens if and when we come out of the E.U.
> 
> Happy new year.


Why is it that it only appears to be leave voters want to stop this debate? lol

(Happy new year to you too  )


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> You have already quoted this days ago noushka05. *Please don't keep repeating yourself to me. I really think it's time this thread was closed, all you do is keep going round in circles.
> The leave votes won, lets just accept that and wait and see what happens if and when we come out of the E.U.
> 
> Happy new year.*


I totally agree with you. I know I said I was leaving this thread so here goes I am saying bye, bye to this thread and bailing leaving those that wish to go around in circles to do so as it won't achieve anything.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> It's not dangerous times because of the rise in the far right parties, try terrorism in the form of ISIS.


Don't you consider the far right dangerous extremists? Thomas Mair murdered an MP!


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> I do get a bit peeved with this 'fascism' connotation in relation to the UK and the Conservatives. I don't think there can be too many countries in the world that give us the freedoms that we have here. True fascism was quickly trampled on in the 30's in the UK when it probably had its best chance of success.
> 
> Whatever, this interview is absolutely spellbinding - Mosley did have charisma.


Some would say Nigel Farage has charisma. This is what makes them SO dangerous.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> I totally agree with you. I know I said I was leaving this thread so here goes I am saying bye, bye to this thread and bailing leaving those that wish to go around in circles to do so as it won't achieve anything.


Well said stockwellcat, I totally agree with you. I shall do the same with this thread.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Don't you consider the far right dangerous extremists? Thomas Mair murdered an MP!


Just read what is happening right now in Poland. With ultraright government.
Constitution mutilated. Media under party control. Judges sacked if not from the ruling party. 
Do you really want that?

Yes...Leavers always Leave. Even on this thread.
The easiest option.
They do not think that in dangerous times like those with terrorism rising, Russia rising all democracy should unite?
No, this is the time they are Leaving for own selfish reasons. To hell with the rest of the world...
Obviously that will not come round to bite you back?


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> I see someone else has voted *'Definitely Out'* taking the leave supporters to 100 on here.


Own up, @Goblin , @KittenKong . Which one of you has seen the light?


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> You have already quoted this days ago noushka05. Please don't keep repeating yourself to me. I really think it's time this thread was closed, all you do is keep going round in circles.
> The leave votes won, lets just accept that and wait and see what happens if and when we come out of the E.U.
> 
> Happy new year.


That'll teach me to scan lol. This morning is the first time I quoted that particular post @Honeys mum. I haven't been on the forum for a couple of days.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Own up, @Goblin , @KittenKong . Which one of you has seen the light?


And who had Satori? lol!


----------



## Satori

samuelsmiles said:


> I do get a bit peeved with this 'fascism' connotation in relation to the UK and the Conservatives. I don't think there can be too many countries in the world that give us the freedoms that we have here. True fascism was quickly trampled on in the 30's in the UK when it probably had its best chance of success.
> 
> Whatever, this interview is absolutely spellbinding - Mosley did have charisma.


fascism
ˈfaʃɪz(ə)m/
_noun_

when the outcome of a fair democratic process is not the one I would have liked.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> fascism
> ˈfaʃɪz(ə)m/
> _noun_
> 
> when the outcome of a fair democratic process is not the one I would have liked.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> That'll teach me to scan lol. This morning is the first time I quoted that particular post @Honeys mum. I haven't been on the forum for a couple of days.


Likes Received:
4,934
Honeys mum said: ↑
Brexit bashers forced to admit UK economy is 'on the up' with fastest growth for a YEAR | UK | News | Daily Express
The Express is one of the worst manipulators of facts. Perhaps you should read the actual CBI report? Which is clearly written, based on extensive talks with affected businesses, makes it clear what a nightmare we face. http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/making-a-success-of-brexit/











noushka05 said:


> This is a perfect example of what gutter rags like the Expresss do. They deliberately mislead their readers by taking things out of context. They distort the facts to feed their readers lies.


_"*In the end you can't argue with science, you can't argue with evidence, you can't argue with the truth. And the truth is that people are fed up with this 'tradition', the injustice & the lies."*_ *Chris Packham BAN DRIVEN GROUSE MOORS

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." Socrates.*
#3022 noushka05, Saturday at 8:04 AM

Sorry but I had to come back one more time. The above is your post put on on Sat. That is me finished with this post now.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> The leave votes won, lets just accept that.


Never. In Mrs Thatcher's terms, "You leave if you want to. I am not for leaving"

Perhaps this thread should be closed and an up to date one started.

Noushka's absolutely right to remind us of the possible horrors to come. People were warned this would happen in the event of a leave victory.

The Tories have moved to the right, equivalent to if Labour appointed Jeremy Corbyn during Tony Blair's term as PM.

Trump is elected US President.
Bigotry, racism and hate crime is on the up. It will not get any better until people stop reading the right wing papers (not suggesting you do personally) and open their eyes.

I saw attached to a lampost a couple of years back, "You wouldn't listen to Nick Griffin, so why listen to Nigel Farage?"


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Likes Received:
> 4,934
> Honeys mum said: ↑
> Brexit bashers forced to admit UK economy is 'on the up' with fastest growth for a YEAR | UK | News | Daily Express
> The Express is one of the worst manipulators of facts. Perhaps you should read the actual CBI report? Which is clearly written, based on extensive talks with affected businesses, makes it clear what a nightmare we face. http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/making-a-success-of-brexit/
> 
> Sorry but I had to come back one more time. The above is your post put on on Sat. That is me finished with this post now.


This is a response to a different post of yours lol

Here they are in order -

Your initial post -



Honeys mum said:


> Brexit bashers forced to admit UK economy is 'on the up' with fastest growth for a YEAR | UK | News | Daily Express


My response -



noushka05 said:


> The Express is one of the worst manipulators of facts. Perhaps you should read the actual CBI report? Which is clearly written, based on extensive talks with affected businesses, makes it clear what a nightmare we face. http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/making-a-success-of-brexit/


You -



Honeys mum said:


> I have read it thankyou, but I wonder if you have read the article in the Express I posted with says as follows
> 
> CBI principal economist Alpesh Paleja said: "It's great to see the economy end the year on the up with growth strengthening across the private sector."
> 
> He added that firms "want to work together to develop a post-Brexit economy that sustains growth and prosperity for all".
> 
> His comments come after the recently published CBI report found that 17 per cent of manufacturing and retail firms reported growth - the highest figure for 12 months.
> 
> The Confederation of British Industry (CBI) admitted UK firms were growing at their fastest rate for 12 months, while the Bank of England said consumer spending, lending by banks and housebuilding were on the increase towards the end of the year.
> 
> The CBI and the Bank of England warned Britons against voting to leave the EU in the run-up to the referendum but both have now been forced to concede the post-Brexit economy is doing better than most Remoaners expected.


My response to it this morning because it was the first time I'd seen it.



noushka05 said:


> If you've read it then surely you accept the CBI report is a list of very significant concerns?
> 
> This is a perfect example of what gutter rags like the Expresss do. They deliberately mislead their readers by taking things out of context. They distort the facts to feed their readers lies.
> 
> Please take a look at the original source. http://htl.li/9Tvs307iiKF
> 
> What the Express cherry picks -
> CBI principal economist Alpesh Paleja said: "It's great to see the economy end the year on the up with growth strengthening across the private sector."
> 
> He added that firms "want to work together to develop a post-Brexit economy that sustains growth and prosperity for all".
> 
> And now the full quote in context with omissions added  -
> 
> *"It's great to see the economy end the year on the up, with growth strengthening across the private sector*.
> 
> *"However, economic growth is likely to soften next year, as heightened uncertainty hits business investment and higher inflation weighs on household spending.*
> 
> *"With the fresh slate of a New Year on the horizon, British businesses will be looking to the Government for as much clarity as possible on upcoming EU negotiations, and want to work together to develop a post-Brexit economy that sustains growth and prosperity for* all
> 
> This is why in this post truth era it has never been more important to fact check. Or we succumb to brainwashing.
> 
> .


[


----------



## noushka05

Terrorism is fascisms best friend - Every terrorist act will be an excuse to subvert democracy by our leaders. Its happening now - beware.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 295546


Surely you are not suggesting that the great UK electorate are not fully informed nor perspicacious to the point of being impervious to obvious election ploys? You make them sound like a rabble, easily roused by celebrity, forceful personality and the media. How very dare you.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Surely you are not suggesting that the great UK electorate are not fully informed nor perspicacious to the point of being impervious to obvious election ploys? You make them sound like a rabble, easily roused by celebrity, forceful personality and the media. How very dare you.


And Sir Nige .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Sorry double posted...


----------



## KittenKong

Imagine if you are on holiday or worse still live and work abroad and were abused by local nationalists because you are English?


----------



## cheekyscrip

I think my friends experienced a bit of cold shoulder in Berlin.
First time they had problems to communicate in English. They complained and were told "Learn German".
But of course we all know how nasty EU is..


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Imagine you are Polish, married British, have a bunch of British kids...have British friends...in- laws, and meanwhile ultra right populist government made your country of origin unliveable.


Yes. Isn't it significant Theresa May wants closer ties with such a government after Brexit?

Over 30 years ago I had personal experience of abuse and threatened with violence due to being mistaken for being Irish at the height of the troubles in the area I was originally born in!


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Imagine if you are on holiday or worse still live and work abroad and were abused by local nationalists because you are English?


Aah, Paris.


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Aah, Paris.


My Parisian BL insults the English and he's been living in this country for over 40 years


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> My Parisian BL insults the English and he's been living in this country for over 40 years


Yes..they always struggle to grasp the concept of British superiority ..


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes..they always struggle to grasp the concept of *British superiority * ..


----------



## kimthecat

Who are "The Bristish" ? Scots, English, Welsh , Irish , Pakistani , Indian , people of African descent for starters. it seems we don't even like each other half the time


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat said:


> It's not dangerous times because of the rise in the far right parties, try terrorism in the form of ISIS.


I don't understand this type of argument that I keep seeing repeatedly on this thread (and others) by both sides.
One person says "X worries me" or "I don't like X" and another responds with "Oh, so you're okay with Y then?"

What is this idea that if you are concerned about the rise of the far right, you're not concerned about terrorism? 
Did it not occur to you that one can be opposed to far right ideologies AND also be opposed to terrorism and want to see it dealt with?

The fact is, both are an issue, and frankly, both feed off each other. Far right nationalism feeds off mistrust, fear, and creating an enemy. ISIS is the perfect enemy to feed in to that fear and mistrust. And vice versa.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Who are "The Bristish" ? Scots, English, Welsh , Irish , Pakistani , Indian , people of African descent for starters. it seems we don't even like each other half the time


And GIBRALTAR forgotten again


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Surely you are not suggesting that the great UK electorate are not fully informed nor perspicacious to the point of being impervious to obvious election ploys? You make them sound like a rabble, easily roused by celebrity, forceful personality and the media. How very dare you.


And yet you described the referendum thus ...



Satori said:


> ... a fair democratic process


Doesn't strike me as fair nor particularly democratic.

Though of course we are where we are.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Who are "The Bristish" ? Scots, English, Welsh , Irish , Pakistani , Indian , *people of African descent* for starters. it seems we don't even like each other half the time


And the saddest thing for me is that *everybody* is of African descent. It's something we seem to have forgotten along the way, and those trying to stop the 'swarms' of migrants would do well to be reminded of it.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> And yet you described the referendum thus ...
> 
> Doesn't strike me as fair nor particularly democratic.
> 
> Though of course we are where we are.


But you assume I was being ironic in the first post. I might have been deadly serious.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> And GIBRALTAR forgotten again


I really feel for you, GIBRALTAR is part of the UK yet no ones seems to care, it really gets me mad. :Rage


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> And the saddest thing for me is that *everybody* is of African descent. It's something we seem to have forgotten along the way, and those trying to stop the 'swarms' of migrants would do well to be reminded of it.


 yes , and it is not just white people who dont want " swarms " of migrants.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> But you assume I was being ironic in the first post. I might have been deadly serious.


Indeed. And I might be the King of Siam!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> And GIBRALTAR forgotten again
> View attachment 295571


I said for starters. I didnt mean to make you feel left out.  The list was off the top of my head and are people who live in my area.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Indeed. And I might be the King of Siam!


สวัสดี


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> yes , and it is not just white people who dont want " swarms " of migrants.


That is true. It was only 40 years ago the National Front campaigned for a "White Britain", the slogan being: "If they're black, send them back".

They should be careful who they back. Many racists don't acknowledge a black or Asian person as being from their country even if born and bred there....


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> That is true. It was only 40 years ago the NF campaigned for a "White Britain", the slogan being: "If they're black, send them back".
> 
> They should be careful who they back. Many racists don't acknowledge a black or Asian person as being from their country even if born and bred there.....


And many Asians made very anti Polish or anti immigrants comments.
The one " we came here to better ourselves but they only take" meaning Polish was the most hurtful.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> And many Asians made very anti Polish or anti immigrants comments.
> The one " we came here to better ourselves but they only take" meaning Polish was the most hurtful.
> 
> As far as I know Polish are active in most volunteer organization etc..animal charities.children, elderly care, you name it...


Very true too. Racism is far from being exclusive to white against black people which needs addressing too. It annoys me when some "anti racists'" don't appear to recognise this.

I have no time for those playing the race card either, nor for Diane Abbott.

At school in the '70s in a highly "ethnic minority" area an Asian friend who was used to abuse from whites was also racially abused by a black pupil for example.

Then there was Idi Amin. Some called him the "Black Hitler".

They can argue terrorists aren't "right wing" either. I'm sorry but a particular organisation who have their own views on how they want their world to be are no better than the Nazis.

I prefer a "Colour blind" world where people are judged on the person and not the colour of their skin or how they speak.

Great progress was being made but the clock has now turned back. This will be felt in the US more than anywhere else.

Sad.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> nor for Diane Abbott.


On this we can agree. Woman has a mountain sized chip on her shoulder



KittenKong said:


> They can argue terrorists aren't "right wing" either. I'm sorry but a particular organisation who have their own views on how they want their world to be are no better than the Nazis.


Mmm so many leftie organizations want to tell everyone else how to live and think


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> On this we can agree. Woman has a mountain sized chip on her shoulder
> 
> Mmm so many leftie organizations want to tell everyone else how to live and think


And rightie organizations obviously don't? Do not tell you who do they think you are, what is good for you and what will make your country ( Poland, England, Spain, Russia...whichever) great? And who to blame if it is not...


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Mmm so many leftie organizations want to tell everyone else how to live and think


Not me I'm afraid, I'm moderate left of centre personally speaking.

I got that impression when the unelected PM May said the UK must unite and words to the effect everyone should rejoice at the opportunities ahead with Brexit.

Sounded like this was an order, not a request.....


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Not me I'm afraid, I'm moderate left of centre personally speaking.
> 
> I got that impression when the unelected PM May said the UK must unite and words to the effect everyone should rejoice at the opportunities ahead with Brexit.
> 
> Sounded like this was an order, not a request.....


It was in line with the electorates referendum result. What else was she supposed to do or say?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> It was in line with the electorates referendum result. What else was she supposed to do or say?


The 16-17 year olds Brexit will affect the most plus Scotland, NI and Gibraltar may disagree.

Unite the UK by demanding it unites under her command through a small referendum majority which may indeed please the 52% but alienating the 48%. She's got to be joking.

It's like how Trump is trying to convince the US people he'll be president for all Americans.

More chance of Thatcher convincing the population of the fairness of the Poll Tax. At least she was democratically elected.


----------



## stuaz

Technically speaking Theresa May is not "unelected" as in the UK system you vote for your Member of Parliament. It is then the leader of that party that becomes the PM and only members of that party can vote for the leader of the party. While I know a lot of people don't view it that way and they often vote for the party as a whole due to the issues they represent or they vote because of the leader (E.g they 'like' David Cameron more than Ed Milband) but based on the rules she is a member of Parliament so she is 'elected' as far as the rules of the system go.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Technically speaking Theresa May is not "unelected" as in the UK system you vote for your Member of Parliament. It is then the leader of that party that becomes the PM and only members of that party can vote for the leader of the party. While I know a lot of people don't view it that way and they often vote for the party as a whole due to the issues they represent or they vote because of the leader (E.g they 'like' David Cameron more than Ed Milband) but based on the rules she is a member of Parliament so she is 'elected' as far as the rules of the system go.


Technically you are right yet it's funny how Gordon Brown was always referred to as an "Unelected PM", which of course he was.

So why was it ok to label Brown this way and not May?


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, stockwellcat:

Did you ever do history lessons at school?
Ever watched the History Channel programmes on the second world war?
...

/QUOTE
.
patronizing much?... :Shifty
.
Yes, i know abt Dec 7th, Hawaii, the sinking of many ships, the strafing of the harbor, kamikazi pilots, & the sinking of the Lusitania.
Given that my mother had *14 male relatives serving overseas during WW-2*, one of them my sire, who was on most if not all of the islands of the Western Pacific as a SeaBee, building runways for planes, burying the dead with a bulldozer [he was on burial duty for 3 weeks nonstop on Iwo Jima], & helping load the wounded onto amphibs for evacuation, "history lessons in school" didn't tell me nearly as much as my uncles & other relatives, plus of course neighbors & family friends who served or had relatives who served.
.
.
U can get off that high horse, now.  
.
.
.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> It was in line with the electorates referendum result. What else was she supposed to do or say?


It would have been better had she suggested that the 48% who voted the other way would have their views taken into account in the negotiations.

If the outcome were to represent the views of the people - which is how I understand democracy - then Brexit would marginally favour those who want to leave, but while leaving, also, where possible, seek to satisfy those who wanted to stay.

Societies do rather badly when they totally ignore very large minorities.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I
> 
> Societies do rather badly when they totally ignore very large minorities.


 That's very true and I think that part of the problem in the UK and Europe is that ordinary people have felt ignored and accused of racism etc when expressing their concerns about immigration or refugees etc. Rightly or wrongly , they feel their concerns were swept under the carpet. 
Plus the banking crisis and austerity measures have caused discontentment in general.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Technically you are right yet it's funny how Gordon Brown was always referred to as an "Unelected PM", which of course he was.
> 
> So why was it ok to label Brown this way and not May?


Its not something I would say about Gordon Brown but I don't believe ether him or Thersea May should be referred to as "unelected PM's"


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> That's very true and I think that part of the problem in the UK and Europe is that ordinary people have felt ignored and accused of racism etc when expressing their concerns about immigration or refugees etc. Rightly or wrongly , they feel their concerns were swept under the carpet.
> Plus the banking crisis and austerity measures have caused discontentment in general.


True. Add PC gone mad...no Christmas lights or nativity because it offends? How?
Schools where white and Christian were unwelcome.It got out of control in UK...more than in other EU countries though...cannot see Spain without Semana Santa ?

Plus arbitrary decision by Merkel ( what was she thinking!!!! Totally lost touch) to open frontiers , with no consensus from EU and then demand from others to take them on?
That gave populist party in Poland their win and really destroy this country...
That angered everyone in Europe.
That gave ammo to Farage and what not.
People reacted and I am not surprised.
If not Merkel's blunder referendum might likely gone as predicted.
DT might not have got that minimal advantage.

All started with Syria...and really with Blair and Iraq.
Now we are paying for it..
Karma?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> True. Add PC gone mad...no Christmas lights or nativity because it offends? How?
> Schools where white and Christian were unwelcome.It got out of control in UK...more than in other EU countries though...cannot see Spain without Semana Santa ?
> 
> Plus arbitrary decision by Merkel ( what was she thinking!!!! Totally lost touch) to open frontiers , with no consensus from EU and then demand from others to take them on?
> That gave populist party in Poland their win and really destroy this country...
> That angered everyone in Europe.
> That gave ammo to Farage and what not.
> People reacted and I am not surprised.
> If not Merkel's blunder referendum might likely gone as predicted.
> DT might not have got that minimal advantage.
> 
> All started with Syria...and really with Blair and Iraq.
> Now we are paying for it..
> Karma?


Agree but it started before Bush and Blair's Iraq war but of course it didn't help. 9/11 was two years before the Iraq war.

Those strongly against any immigration should spare a thought for Spain too. Perhaps the "swarm of UK migrants" should be "sent back" to their own country too with all that "binge drinking and bad behaviour" the tabloids accuse the English of.


----------



## KittenKong

And of course with the referendum and Trump's subsequent victory opponents are told to shut up and conform, ie: You will rejoice at Brexit and Trump will be your President.

A request at present, an order or else tomorrow......


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> And of course with the referendum and Trump's subsequent victory opponents are* told to shut up and conform*, ie: You will rejoice at Brexit and Trump will be your President.


Who said this?



KittenKong said:


> A request at present, *an order or else tomorrow*......


You can foretell the future too


----------



## KittenKong

rona, post: 1064737754, member: 1291961"]Who said this?

Perhaps not in those exact words but pro EU supporters (and no doubt those who opposed Trump) are frequently told, "We won, you lost, get over it" and are called "Remoaners" .Name calling can lead to far worse in the near future....

No, I can't see into the future but can look to what happened in the past in the 1930s. 

I sincerely hope history doesn't repeat itself.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> True. Add PC gone mad...no Christmas lights or nativity because it offends? How?
> Schools where white and Christian were unwelcome.It got out of control in UK...more than in other EU countries though...cannot see Spain without Semana Santa ?


While it would be wrong to dismiss this was never suggested by anyone I'm sure the tabloid press exaggerated this.

Most these stupid PC matters were probably the result of white English "trendy lefties" and not from those from other faiths or immigrants for that matter.

I have personally never heard a suggestion from a non Christian that Xmas offends them. I wonder how many have done?!


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> I have personally never heard a suggestion from a non Christian that Xmas offends them. I wonder how many have done?!


I have, not that it bothered me in the least. I worked for a Global top 100 company within which use of the term Christmas was banned from official communications and non-statutory holidays with a Christian connotation were cancelled and substituted for other 'less offensive' days-off.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Plus arbitrary decision by Merkel ( what was she thinking!!!! Totally lost touch) to open frontiers.
> 
> That angered everyone in Europe.


I suspect that what she was thinking was that someone had better do something about the hundreds of thousands of migrants in southern Europe without a roof over their heads before they started dying and turned a difficult situation into a human tragedy.

I wasn't angered because I couldn't see a different solution once that situation had been allowed to occur.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect that what she was thinking was that someone had better do something about the hundreds of thousands of migrants in southern Europe without a roof over their heads before they started dying and turned a difficult situation into a human tragedy.
> 
> I wasn't angered because I couldn't see a different solution once that situation had been allowed to occur.


I mean those who were not in Europe yet?
When those men jumped on the dinghy what happened to their wives and children left behind?
How many women and children paid into hands of human traffickers just to be sold as sex slaves?
Merkel has lots to answer for. Creating safe zones in Syria and camps just outside plus getting the war to stop was the answer.

And the post Brexit future looks like this:








Ironically most of those who voted for it would not be there to " enjoy it".


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, cheekyscrip:

...
And the post Brexit future looks like this:
View attachment 295711

Ironically, most of those who voted for (Brexit will) not be there to " enjoy it".

/QUOTE
.
Precisely analagous to the Hair-Don't being appointed POTUS - the vast majority of his voting constituency were *older white men *who are angry over the death of the 'American Dream', which once promised that anyone willing to work hard & be reliable would prosper; that's a fallacy today.
Those same *older white men *fear the coming change in popn balance, when non-white Americans will outnumber whites. They & their fears provided the Electoral College votes that awarded Trumpster his nominal office, & the cowardice of the E-C electors rubber-stamped his approval.
.
but Trumpling didn't win the popular vote, & among those who will be affected long term, the youth & under-30 adults, vanishingly few voted *for* him; the vast majority voted _*against Trump *_at least as much as they voted "for" another candidate.  Yet they'll be left holding the bag, even long-after he is out of office. The long tail of Presidential actions is proverbial, & the seeds of the 2008 global economic collapse were planted by Prez Ronnie Ray-gun's deliberate dismantling of Federal regulations on the banking & financial sectors, who, he assured us, are "too ethical" to need such oversight & formal constraints.

yeah, well - that worked out wonderfully, didn't it?
.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> I have, not that it bothered me in the least. I worked for a Global top 100 company within which use of the term Christmas was banned from official communications and non-statutory holidays with a Christian connotation were cancelled and substituted for other 'less offensive' days-off.


One wonders why?

Because we created army of bureaucrats who are paid well to produce those insanities?


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> One wonders why?
> 
> Because we created army of bureaucrats who are paid well to produce those insanities?


Indeed yes. Thousands of non-essential leeches hiding in the shadows of the deepest corridors of the most useless departments, all on decent six-figure salaries. That's corporate life for you. I lived it for years and it's one of the reasons I utterly despise the EU so much, because it is the ultimate distillation of this kind of parasitic behaviour. The EU has nothing to do with the union and everything to do with the institution itself; stuffed with fat useless porcine bureaucrats, thousands of them all earning more than, eg, our own PM all gorging on the free gravy. Worse still, most of them, like many scroungers, are bloody socialists. I can't wait for them to choke to death.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Indeed yes. Thousands of non-essential leeches hiding in the shadows of the deepest corridors of the most useless departments, all on decent six-figure salaries. That's corporate life for you. I lived it for years and it's one of the reasons I utterly despise the EU so much, because it is the ultimate distillation of this kind of parasitic behaviour. The EU has nothing to do with the union and everything to do with the institution itself; stuffed with fat useless porcine bureaucrats, thousands of them all earning more than, eg, our own PM all gorging on the free gravy. Worse still, most of them, like many scroungers, are bloody socialists. I can't wait for them to choke to death.


Sounds like most governments?Else corridors are full of former KGB?
Think actually UK is one of the most overregulated and I could only speak for Education Dept...
Think Brexit will change that if EU has not caused it?

Education in UK is in constant turmoil of total inconsistency causing total despair among teachers and headteachers....wave after wave ad nauseam..reforms that go round and round like" turd in icehole"...

Britain has more red tape and unnecessary nanny state regulations than I have ever seen in any other country I ever lived.
Now it will regulate itself....At least that will create some jobs for fat cats...

Why such violence against socialist red tape though? Blue red tape is more justified?

More ommm..please...


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Satori:

... Worse still, most of them, like many scroungers, are bloody socialists. I can't wait for them to choke to death.

/QUOTE
.
.
errmmm... 
Social Security for retired older workers, price supports for farmers, flood & fire & pest & drought help for farmers, NATIONAL HEALTH CARE for citizens, & even the 40-hour week were all damned as "_*Socialist claptrap!*_" that would destroy the U-S fiber of independence.  At the time, the 60-hr work-week was the standard, & _"all that leisure!" _was thot to be a serious corrupting influence on the Average Working Man // now outnumbered by the Average Working Woman.
.
given that I'm female, single, & working 6 days of 7 every week, but not earning enuf to afford a roof over my head with a lease, nor sufficient income to buy all my own groceries but depend upon Food Stamps, odds are excellent I'll be surviving on soup-kitchens & sleeping under bridges, assuming I live long-enuf to be either unable to work, or cannot find anyone willing to hire me.
So my pathetic pittance from Soc-Sec will be all that stands between me & absolute nothingness.
My life will, unless it's interrupted by an accident or fatal illness, outlast my few resources.
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> . Worse still, most of them, like many scroungers, are bloody socialists. I can't wait for them to choke to death.


With respect, many of those you address as scroungers voted for Brexit blaming immigrants for "stealing their jobs" they should have had.

Having said that, in the '70s when I grew up it was almost unheard of to hear fathers out of work. In the '80s this became the norm as thousands lost their jobs.

The next generation would therefore understand it was normal for the "man in the house" not to work so the scroungers you refer to will think it's the norm not to work and live of benefits.

Who's to blame? Not the EU.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> With respect, many of those you address as scroungers voted for Brexit blaming immigrants for "stealing their jobs" they should have had.
> 
> Having said that, in the '70s when I grew up it was almost unheard of to hear fathers out of work. In the '80s this became the norm as thousands lost their jobs.
> 
> The next generation would therefore understand it was normal for the "man in the house" not to work so the scroungers you refer to will think it's the norm not to work and live of benefits.
> 
> Who's to blame? Not the EU.


Have you actually read Satori's post?

If you have I suggest you go back and read it again. Your reply has no relevance to that post

*Satori*. I would have liked your post but I can't bring myself to do it with that last comment attached


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Have you actually read Satori's post?
> 
> If you have I suggest you go back and read it again. Your reply has no relevance to that post


Yes I did. I was referring to the, "Like many scroungers" sentence at the end rather than the post as a whole.

I might have got this wrong but I assumed s/he was referring to the "Benefit scroungers'" we often hear about in the press.

I couldn't bring myself to comment on the rest of the post. While I respect the right to his/her point of view like yourself it's best to agree to disagree!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Yes I did. I was referring to the, "Like many scroungers" sentence at the end rather than the post as a whole.
> 
> I might have got this wrong but I assumed s/he was referring to the "Benefit scroungers'" we often hear about in the press.
> 
> I couldn't bring myself to comment on the rest of the post. While I respect the right to his/her point of view like yourself it's best to agree to disagree!


That's a very huge assumption as Satori was talking about the rather well off scroungers


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> That's a very huge assumption as Satori was talking about the rather well off scroungers


Who are these "Rather well off scroungers"? Forgive any ignorance I may have but the term "Scrounger"
as I understand it represents those who live of the state and don't work for their money.....

As I mentioned I may have got what Satori was referring to wrong and will apologise for any misunderstanding.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Indeed yes. Thousands of non-essential leeches hiding in the shadows of the deepest corridors of the most useless departments, all on decent six-figure salaries. That's corporate life for you. I lived it for years and it's one of the reasons I utterly despise the EU so much, because it is the ultimate distillation of this kind of parasitic behaviour. The EU has nothing to do with the union and everything to do with the institution itself; stuffed with fat useless porcine bureaucrats, thousands of them all earning more than, eg, our own PM all gorging on the free gravy. Worse still, most of them, like many scroungers, are bloody socialists. I can't wait for them to choke to death.


Amazing. But I feel a little bit of research coming on. So for which departments do these "thousands" all earning over £143,000 work?


----------



## 1290423

Just to confirm,
Was out in June,
July
August
Sept
Oct
Nov
December
Was still out yesterday
And today
Shall be tomorrow
And the next day

Just making sure everyone knows like


----------



## 1290423

Satori said:


> Indeed yes. Thousands of non-essential leeches hiding in the shadows of the deepest corridors of the most useless departments, all on decent six-figure salaries. That's corporate life for you. I lived it for years and it's one of the reasons I utterly despise the EU so much, because it is the ultimate distillation of this kind of parasitic behaviour. The EU has nothing to do with the union and everything to do with the institution itself; stuffed with fat useless porcine bureaucrats, thousands of them all earning more than, eg, our own PM all gorging on the free gravy. Worse still, most of them, like many scroungers, are bloody socialists. I can't wait for them to choke to death.


And whilst on this, can someone please remind me exactly what percentage of our council tax goes towards the pension fund for council employees


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> Amazing. But I feel a little bit of research coming on. So for which departments do these "thousands" all earning over £143,000 work?


Our local council I reckon , judging by the amount of council tax we pay


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> With respect, many of those you address as scroungers voted for Brexit blaming immigrants for "stealing their jobs" they should have had.
> 
> Having said that, in the '70s when I grew up it was almost unheard of to hear fathers out of work. In the '80s this became the norm as thousands lost their jobs.
> 
> The next generation would therefore understand it was normal for the "man in the house" not to work so the scroungers you refer to will think it's the norm not to work and live of benefits.
> 
> Who's to blame? Not the EU.[/QUOT
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> Have you actually read Satori's post?
> 
> If you have I suggest you go back and read it again. Your reply has no relevance to that post
> 
> *Satori*. I would have liked your post but I can't bring myself to do it with that last comment attached


Yes, the final sentence was a reference to choking on the free gravy. The penultimate sentence should have been parenthetical. I should've really read back my own posts but cba most of the time. No regrets about the tone overall though. Time to drain the swamps etc....


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Yes, the final sentence was a reference to choking on the free gravy. The penultimate sentence should have been parenthetical. I should've really read back my own posts but cba most of the time. No regrets about the tone overall though. Time to drain the swamps etc....


Still waiting for you to pinpoint the 'thousands' of EU bureaucrats being paid over £143,000.

I've only done some preliminary research so far and wouldn't want to judge the accuracy of your assertion just based on that.


----------



## Satori

Thought it was common knowledge. Is it just urban legend?, you tell me. Even if they get paid a little less, I'd still not want them. Just look at the vacancy notices for the commissions permanent staff. Useless roles. I remember when I worked in Brussels. Not for the commission but the existence of the EU staff set the local market rates even then. I was paid a guaranteed minimum £70k a year after all taxes for doing a very junior management job more than 20 years ago. Couldn't spend if I tried. (Different carriage, same gravy train).

Remember this from the Telegraph.....

*10,000 European Union officials better paid than David Cameron - Telegraph*
More than one in five European Union officials takes home more than David Cameron gets from his £142,000 salary, leaked documents show.

The take-home pay of the Brussels-based commission's staff is inflated by their special low tax rates, which mean they pay less than half the tax that a British worker on a similar salary would incur.

Details of European officials' generous pay and perks have come to light on the day that voters in Britain and across the EU take part in elections to the European Parliament. Mr Cameron has made reform of the EU a central part of his agenda for those elections and next year's general election, promising a British referendum on EU membership.

The EU has repeatedly refused to publish information of the net income of its 47,000 staff, making it impossible for taxpayers to know the true pay levels of European civil servants. But leaked staff documents have revealed the net pay received by EU officials thanks to generous allowances and deductions for tax, pensions and sickness insurance.

Mr Cameron is paid a gross salary of £142,500. After paying his taxes, National Insurance and pension contribution, Mr Cameron takes home about £81,350.

The Coalition has set the Prime Minister's salary as the upper limit for Whitehall pay, with only a small number of senior officials getting more.

But in Brussels, even mid-ranking administrators can take home more cash than the Prime Minister. The leaked papers show that EU officials in the "AD 11" grade, a middle management group, have gross earnings of £112,090, including expatriation and household allowances. But because they pay just 13.4 per cent in tax, they take home £83,357 in net pay.

Those with children will earn substantially more with allowances totalling £7,000 per child each year, meaning many officials with families on lower grades will also earn more than Mr Cameron.

More than 80 per cent of EU officials get a 16 per cent of salary top-up as a perk to compensate them for living in Brussels or Luxembourg for their entire working lives, as well as for household allowances. For an AD11 middle manager, the two allowances are worth more than £1,300 a month.

Officials employed before staff reforms in 2004 are also eligible for additional benefits, taking the number of EU civil servants better paid than Mr Cameron to more than 10,000.

"The fact that most Europeans will this week either not vote at all or vote for parties that want to abolish the EU highlights the growing disconnect between the voter and the European institutions," said Chris Howarth, senior policy analyst at the Open Europe think tank.

"One immediate action that could establish some goodwill would be for the new European Commission to tackle the issue of overpaid and undertaxed EU bureaucrats."

However, the commission insists the salaries were needed to attract candidates from western European countries. It claims there has been a recruitment crisis, with Britain, for instance, accounting for 12.3 per cent of the EU's population but providing only 1.9 per cent of its officials.

"Our headache is maintaining a broad geographical balance," said a spokesman. "We're struggling to attract the brightest and best from richer member states, particularly the UK."

Nigel Farage, the leader of Ukip, said the high levels of pay showed that Mr Cameron's EU reform agenda was not working. "He just tinkered and failed. The only way to save our country's money and our democracy is to exit the EU," he said.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Thought it was common knowledge. Is it just urban legend?, you tell me. Even if they get paid a little less, I'd still not want them. Just look at the vacancy notices for the commissions permanent staff. Useless roles. I remember when I worked in Brussels. Not for the commission but the existence of the EU staff set the local market rates even then. I was paid a guaranteed minimum £70k a year after all taxes for doing a very junior management job more than 20 years ago. Couldn't spend if I tried. (Different carriage, same gravy train).
> 
> Remember this from the Telegraph.....
> 
> *10,000 European Union officials better paid than David Cameron - Telegraph*
> More than one in five European Union officials takes home more than David Cameron gets from his £142,000 salary, leaked documents show.
> 
> The take-home pay of the Brussels-based commission's staff is inflated by their special low tax rates, which mean they pay less than half the tax that a British worker on a similar salary would incur.
> 
> Details of European officials' generous pay and perks have come to light on the day that voters in Britain and across the EU take part in elections to the European Parliament. Mr Cameron has made reform of the EU a central part of his agenda for those elections and next year's general election, promising a British referendum on EU membership.
> 
> The EU has repeatedly refused to publish information of the net income of its 47,000 staff, making it impossible for taxpayers to know the true pay levels of European civil servants. But leaked staff documents have revealed the net pay received by EU officials thanks to generous allowances and deductions for tax, pensions and sickness insurance.
> 
> Mr Cameron is paid a gross salary of £142,500. After paying his taxes, National Insurance and pension contribution, Mr Cameron takes home about £81,350.
> 
> The Coalition has set the Prime Minister's salary as the upper limit for Whitehall pay, with only a small number of senior officials getting more.
> 
> But in Brussels, even mid-ranking administrators can take home more cash than the Prime Minister. The leaked papers show that EU officials in the "AD 11" grade, a middle management group, have gross earnings of £112,090, including expatriation and household allowances. But because they pay just 13.4 per cent in tax, they take home £83,357 in net pay.
> 
> Those with children will earn substantially more with allowances totalling £7,000 per child each year, meaning many officials with families on lower grades will also earn more than Mr Cameron.
> 
> More than 80 per cent of EU officials get a 16 per cent of salary top-up as a perk to compensate them for living in Brussels or Luxembourg for their entire working lives, as well as for household allowances. For an AD11 middle manager, the two allowances are worth more than £1,300 a month.
> 
> Officials employed before staff reforms in 2004 are also eligible for additional benefits, taking the number of EU civil servants better paid than Mr Cameron to more than 10,000.
> 
> "The fact that most Europeans will this week either not vote at all or vote for parties that want to abolish the EU highlights the growing disconnect between the voter and the European institutions," said Chris Howarth, senior policy analyst at the Open Europe think tank.
> 
> "One immediate action that could establish some goodwill would be for the new European Commission to tackle the issue of overpaid and undertaxed EU bureaucrats."
> 
> However, the commission insists the salaries were needed to attract candidates from western European countries. It claims there has been a recruitment crisis, with Britain, for instance, accounting for 12.3 per cent of the EU's population but providing only 1.9 per cent of its officials.
> 
> "Our headache is maintaining a broad geographical balance," said a spokesman. "We're struggling to attract the brightest and best from richer member states, particularly the UK."
> 
> Nigel Farage, the leader of Ukip, said the high levels of pay showed that Mr Cameron's EU reform agenda was not working. "He just tinkered and failed. The only way to save our country's money and our democracy is to exit the EU," he said.


Our dear Nige is paid by EU as MEP? Yet all he dies for that money from EU tax payers is gallivanting with DT, and I do not mean our lovely pf member! Hope he has integrity to pay it back then?

And look who is so generous with supporting far right?









After helping DT and our poor Tory businessmen...


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Still waiting for you to pinpoint the 'thousands' of EU bureaucrats being paid over £143,000.


Even if this is completely true it's a small price to pay for ensuring peace across Europe for 70 years. That amount is nothing compared to a typical footballer or of course some of the "Public sector Celebes" who take gap years and extended luxury holidays.

I'm not necessarily saying I agree "Bureaucrats" should be awarded such large sums of money but that's far from exclusive to the EU. We don't live in a perfect world unfortunately. The UK government reportedly need countless Civil Servants to work on Brexit which will be costly.

It's been reported that the combined wealth of Trump's team earn more than several economies and as shown above from the Mail of all papers.....


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/31/brexit-vote-rush-british-jews-portuguese-passports


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Our dear Nige is paid by EU as MEP? Yet all he dies for that money from EU tax payers is gallivanting with DT, and I do not mean our lovely pf member! Hope he has integrity to pay it back then?
> 
> And look who is so generous with supporting far right?
> View attachment 295890
> 
> 
> After helping DT and our poor Tory businessmen...


Hey! Wash ya mouths out! Im not galavanting with anyone, if I were I missed it


----------



## 1290423

Was out when I git uo, will still be out when I go to bed x


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Thought it was common knowledge. Is it just urban legend?, you tell me. Even if they get paid a little less, I'd still not want them. Just look at the vacancy notices for the commissions permanent staff. Useless roles. I remember when I worked in Brussels. Not for the commission but the existence of the EU staff set the local market rates even then. I was paid a guaranteed minimum £70k a year after all taxes for doing a very junior management job more than 20 years ago. Couldn't spend if I tried. (Different carriage, same gravy train).
> 
> Remember this from the Telegraph.....
> 
> *10,000 European Union officials better paid than David Cameron - Telegraph*
> More than one in five European Union officials takes home more than David Cameron gets from his £142,000 salary, leaked documents show.
> 
> The take-home pay of the Brussels-based commission's staff is inflated by their special low tax rates, which mean they pay less than half the tax that a British worker on a similar salary would incur.
> 
> Details of European officials' generous pay and perks have come to light on the day that voters in Britain and across the EU take part in elections to the European Parliament. Mr Cameron has made reform of the EU a central part of his agenda for those elections and next year's general election, promising a British referendum on EU membership.
> 
> The EU has repeatedly refused to publish information of the net income of its 47,000 staff, making it impossible for taxpayers to know the true pay levels of European civil servants. But leaked staff documents have revealed the net pay received by EU officials thanks to generous allowances and deductions for tax, pensions and sickness insurance.
> 
> Mr Cameron is paid a gross salary of £142,500. After paying his taxes, National Insurance and pension contribution, Mr Cameron takes home about £81,350.
> 
> The Coalition has set the Prime Minister's salary as the upper limit for Whitehall pay, with only a small number of senior officials getting more.
> 
> But in Brussels, even mid-ranking administrators can take home more cash than the Prime Minister. The leaked papers show that EU officials in the "AD 11" grade, a middle management group, have gross earnings of £112,090, including expatriation and household allowances. But because they pay just 13.4 per cent in tax, they take home £83,357 in net pay.
> 
> Those with children will earn substantially more with allowances totalling £7,000 per child each year, meaning many officials with families on lower grades will also earn more than Mr Cameron.
> 
> More than 80 per cent of EU officials get a 16 per cent of salary top-up as a perk to compensate them for living in Brussels or Luxembourg for their entire working lives, as well as for household allowances. For an AD11 middle manager, the two allowances are worth more than £1,300 a month.
> 
> Officials employed before staff reforms in 2004 are also eligible for additional benefits, taking the number of EU civil servants better paid than Mr Cameron to more than 10,000.
> 
> "The fact that most Europeans will this week either not vote at all or vote for parties that want to abolish the EU highlights the growing disconnect between the voter and the European institutions," said Chris Howarth, senior policy analyst at the Open Europe think tank.
> 
> "One immediate action that could establish some goodwill would be for the new European Commission to tackle the issue of overpaid and undertaxed EU bureaucrats."
> 
> However, the commission insists the salaries were needed to attract candidates from western European countries. It claims there has been a recruitment crisis, with Britain, for instance, accounting for 12.3 per cent of the EU's population but providing only 1.9 per cent of its officials.
> 
> "Our headache is maintaining a broad geographical balance," said a spokesman. "We're struggling to attract the brightest and best from richer member states, particularly the UK."
> 
> Nigel Farage, the leader of Ukip, said the high levels of pay showed that Mr Cameron's EU reform agenda was not working. "He just tinkered and failed. The only way to save our country's money and our democracy is to exit the EU," he said.


I suspect some creative statistical manipulation there, but it always amuses me when salaries are compared to our PM, who, on leaving office can make £100,000 for a speech and sign a multi-million pound book deal.

Current starting salary for a permanent EU Commission role is €2300 per month. Even after the £ depreciation following the referendum that's still below the average UK wage.

Whether the roles are useless or not I guess is influenced by personal opinion.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Our dear Nige is paid by EU as MEP?


Ah, but he does it with heavy heart. It must be tough for such a principled man to take all that money for doing essentially nothing; I mean he doesn't even turn up for the meetings of parliament. I guess he thinks it is worth the compromise for our sakes. Sigh. Such a selfless human being our Nige.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Ah, but he does it with heavy heart. It must be tough for such a principled man to take all that money for doing essentially nothing; I mean he doesn't even turn up for the meetings of parliament. I guess he thinks it is worth the compromise for our sakes. Sigh. Such a selfless human being our Nige.


Wish he could drown in that free gravy like a fly...
( did not say rat..as all Rodent Chat will be up in arms and rats are lovely, intelligent and cute..nothing like Nige).


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Wish he could drown in that free gravy like a fly...
> ( did not say rat..as all Rodent Chat will be up in arms and rats are lovely, intelligent and cute..nothing like Nige).


The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I know a Nige fan when I see one.

Go on admit it. You know you wanna.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
> 
> I know a Nige fan when I see one.
> 
> Go on admit it. You know you wanna.


The party has not started yet though you shouldn't have any more of whatever you are on...
Yes...I might dream about laying my hands on fair Nige...especially with if had a taser...and it was dark alleys..oh fun and games...


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes...I might dream about laying my hands on fair Nige...especially with if had a taser...and it was dark alleys..oh fun and games...


 Stop putting ideas in my head


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Stop putting ideas in my head


You are welcome to join ...think what we can make of it together!!!


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> You are welcome to join ...think what we can make of it together!!!


How could you resist?


----------



## Jesthar

Satori said:


> How could you resist?
> 
> View attachment 296144


Looks like someone already _got_ him with a taser


----------



## kimthecat

Satori said:


> How could you resist?


 :Vomit


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.proeuropa.org.uk/i_am_pro_europa









Happy New Year!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> http://www.proeuropa.org.uk/i_am_pro_europa
> View attachment 296151
> 
> 
> Happy New Year!


WOW, they have a lot of support from a few 100 people


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> WOW, they have a lot of support from a few 100 people


Knew you'd say that. I haven't yet put my own name forward and wasn't aware of the site's existence until yesterday......

So you think May got through to the Remainers and Brexiteers to unite? Far from it. To balance it out Corbyn's speech to the 52% was just as pathetic.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Knew you'd say that. I haven't put my own name forward and was aware of the site's existence until yesterday.
> 
> Hence the link.


I just thought it a stunning lack of interest considering the site has been going since at least June 2015. That's 18 months to gather 314 people!!!!


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I just thought it a stunning lack of interest considering the site has been going since at least June 2015. That's 18 months to gather 314 people!!!!


2015?! Funny how I've got to just hear about it!

Even if it was just 315 people that's better than just 15!


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Even if it was just 315 people that's better than just 15!


True; though still some way short of 17,410,742 to be fair.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> 2015?!


You only have to look at when the first person registered as a supporter. Simples


----------



## KittenKong

No need to be like that Rona. I don't always have time to examine sites with a fine tooth comb on first encountering them although I would have noticed the date eventually.


. Makes no difference though to me. I've only discovered the site myself and it's clear many of the 16million+ are not aware of it. You're not seriously suggesting only 315UK citizens are pro EU!

I thought I'd forward a link in case anyone else was interested. Naturally I wouldn't expect everyone to approve but some of us here are pro EU while I recognise many are pro Brexit.


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong I think Rona was teasing you !


----------



## leashedForLife

.
somewhat like DJT / Trumpling, some PF-uk members have a long & glorious history of pricking with a goad, or saying something egregiously outrageous, then claiming, "I was only teasing...", or "kidding", or their various mouthpieces & spin-specialists explain how we 'misunderstood their intention'.

.
.
see Trumpster's multifarious gaffes, mangled 'facts', & grotesque exaggerations as unparalleled exemplars, then his many apologists - some paid staff, others volunteer cizzens, a few professional journalists who supported him --- for samples of corrective spin & / or complex explication.
.
.
by & large, go with yer intuitive emotional response:
if it feels hurtful, mean, petty, insincere, underhanded, backstabbing with faint praise, or otherwise unkind, it probly was... & moreover, it was very-likely meant to be so.
.
hence, the usefulness of PF-uk's 'Ignore' function in reducing one's exposure to not only frank verbal assaults, but also the more-insidious sandpapering of mean remarks. 
I recommend it; used judiciously, it improved my experience of the forum considerably.
.
.
.


----------



## rona

leashedForLife said:


> .
> somewhat like DJT / Trumpling, some PF-uk members have a long & glorious history of pricking with a goad, or saying something egregiously outrageous, then claiming, "I was only teasing...", or "kidding", or their various mouthpieces & spin-specialists explain how we 'misunderstood their intention'.
> 
> .
> .
> see Trumpster's multifarious gaffes, mangled 'facts', & grotesque exaggerations as unparalleled exemplars, then his many apologists - some paid staff, others volunteer cizzens, a few professional journalists who supported him --- for samples of corrective spin & / or complex explication.
> .
> .
> by & large, go with yer intuitive emotional response:
> if it feels hurtful, mean, petty, insincere, underhanded, backstabbing with faint praise, or otherwise unkind, it probly was... & moreover, it was very-likely meant to be so.
> .
> hence, the usefulness of PF-uk's 'Ignore' function in reducing one's exposure to not only frank verbal assaults, but also the more-insidious sandpapering of mean remarks.
> I recommend it; used judiciously, it improved my experience of the forum considerably.
> .
> .
> .


Only if I have no respect for the person, This does not apply to KittenKong.
You knew that I wasn't joking when interacting with you which means I made it very obvious then put you on ignore, where you are going back too. I'm no underhand shrinking violet. If I mean something I will say


----------



## rona

http://www.theecologist.org/News/ne...ices_says_the_charity_people_need_nature.html

"EU subsidies granted since 1973 have "contributed to a dramatic decline in nature on farmland - land that covers three quarters of England."

"UK conservationist Miles King, is scathing in his criticism of this system: "Cross compliance has failed to protect the environment"

https://anewnatureblog.wordpress.co...unities-for-farming-food-nature-after-brexit/

"As England prepares to leave the EU we have a once in a lifetime opportunity to change the way we support England's land managers. This report shows how leaving the EU will enable us to channel money from the public purse to land managers in such a way that they can both produce food, help nature and provide all the other benefits society needs.

The last forty years of farm subsidies from Europe via the Common Agricultural Policy has contributed to a dramatic decline in nature on farmland - land that covers three quarters of England"


----------



## KittenKong

In "The Sun" today, 40,000 jobs will be created due to Brexit!

I don't know who to believe more, The Sun or Miles King.....


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, KittenKong:

In "The Sun" today, 40,000 jobs will be created due to Brexit!
...
/QUOTE
.
.
and no doubt, it will also rain money & a Jubilee will be declared, canceling all debts over $100 for individuals who earn less than twice the poverty level // twice the minimum needed income to provide shelter, food, utilities, & transportation in their home area.
.

hey, dream big if U're gonna dream at all. :Hilarious
.
.
meanwhile, back at the ranch --- 17 days till the barbarians enter the Oval Office.
.
.
.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I don't know who to believe more, The Sun or Miles King.....


But.......but........Miles is an expert and I thought we were supposed to be listening to them


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> But.......but........Miles is an expert and I thought we were supposed to be listening to them


Perhaps but he's clearly pro Brexit. His report sounded as plausible as £350million for the NHS and other incredible things I've heard like the British industries of old suddenly re-appearing. All closed down thanks to the EEC/EU apparently. I don't remember Mrs Thatcher blaming the EEC for the demise of British industries like Coalmining. I thought she blamed the Trade Unions who are, dare I say it, British.....

One interesting point from Mr King is the"Once in a lifetime opportunity" comment. Surely that's down to central government to re-distribute money to these areas so that opportunity may never arise.


----------



## rona

His credentials 
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/miles-king-b987741a


----------



## cheekyscrip

I meantime that man certainly knows what he is talking about.
He knows there is no plan and no idea and just cannot work anymore.
Great pity.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> But.......but........Miles is an expert and I thought we were supposed to be listening to them


We should listen to experts and, yes, Miles IS an expert - a very highly respected one . What fascinates me though, is people who would normally deride the likes of Miles King (who has done sterling work exposing the destructive shooting industry & is clearly much admired by both George Monbiot & Mark Avery) suddenly use his literature to support their bias lol.

Miles isn't pro brexit by any means. CAPs is the very worst of the EU and Miles sees this an opportunity to do better. Is his vision possible under this hard right government?

..


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> I meantime that man certainly knows what he is talking about.
> He knows there is no plan and no idea and just cannot work anymore.
> Great pity.
> View attachment 296325
> View attachment 296326


It appears not only have the "_people in this country have had enough of experts."_ But the government has too They are prepared to throw the country under a bus for political gain. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0f994e3c-d1fe-11e6-b721-fbd88801f92d


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Miles isn't pro brexit by any means. CAPs is the very worst of the EU and Miles sees this an opportunity to do better. Is his vision possible under this hard right government?
> ..


No. They'll probably sell it for "redevelopment" to a non EU foreign concern anyway.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I meantime that man certainly knows what he is talking about.
> He knows there is no plan and no idea and just cannot work anymore.
> Great pity.
> View attachment 296325
> View attachment 296326


There is a plan.
It's called cutting all ties with the EU and leaving. It's called a hard Brexit by some.

Regarding the negative remainer leaving as top EU envoy. Good. Nigel there's a job going and who else would be more suitable than you. You work at the EU after all


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> No. They'll probably sell it for "redevelopment" to a non EU foreign concern anyway.


Personally I suspect we'll just carry on subsidising wealthy landowners to trash our countryside with their ecologically destructive gamebird shoots.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> There is a plan.
> It's called cutting all ties with the EU and leaving. It's called a hard Brexit by some.
> 
> Regarding the negative remainer leaving as top EU envoy. Good. Nigel there's a job going and who else would be more suitable than you. You work at the EU after all


_
Brexiteers now banishing the truth tellers. Nothing and no one can disturb the certainties of the cult.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/03/brexit-ivan-rogers?CMP=share_btn_tw_


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> _Brexiteers now banishing the truth tellers. Nothing and no one can disturb the certainties of the cult.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/03/brexit-ivan-rogers?CMP=share_btn_tw_


The envoy was constantly arguing with TM because he was a hard-line remainer. How disrespectful of him. The position should go to a hard-line Brexiter and who better to fill the position than Farage. Nigel has worked and still works in the EU, knows how the EU works and has experience with working in the EU. I can't think of anyone more suitable for the the job.

This won't derail TMs Brexit plans at all. How is being a Brexiter being part of a cult, that is a bit extreme.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> I meantime that man certainly knows what he is talking about.
> He knows there is no plan and no idea and just cannot work anymore.
> Great pity]


Who can blame him working with that lot?

Still the Brexiteers of the Tory party can get on with their Red, White and Blue Brexit uninterrupted now.

A certain paper depicted May in boxing gloves yesterday, ready to "take on" the EU!

Wow! How exciting!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> The envoy was constantly arguing with TM because he was a hard-line remainer. How disrespectful of him. The position should go to a hard-line Brexiter and who better to fill the position than Farage. Nigel has worked and still works in the EU, knows how the EU works and has experience with working in the EU. I can't think of anyone more suitable for the the job.
> 
> This won't derail TMs Brexit plans at all. How is being a Brexiter being part of a cult, that is a bit extreme.


Realism now appears to incompatible with working with this Government on brexit. What could possibly go wrong? And you think that selfserving racist, Farage, should be first choice? Jeezus.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> The envoy was constantly arguing with TM because he was a hard-line remainer. *How disrespectful of him*. The position should go to a hard-line Brexiter and who better to fill the position than Farage.


Hang on, having a different opinon or raising concerns or issues that a lot of people are worried about is now 'disrespectful'? What do the government want people who voted leave to do, sit down, shut up and when their opinion is wanted it will be given to them? To be honest, though, it doesn't matter _who_ fills the position, we'll get what the EU choose to give us when we leave, and there's not much we can do to influence that - though our chances of that leaving package being on the more generous end of the equation would be increased with someone diplomatic and tactful a thte negotiating helm. I can't say I classify Farage as either of those...
*


stockwellcat said:



Nigel has worked and still works in the EU

Click to expand...

*


stockwellcat said:


> , knows how the EU works and has experience with working in the EU. I can't think of anyone more suitable for the the job.


Oh, come now - _working_ is a tad strong a term for his level of EU involvement, surely? Elected and turned up once in while, maybe 



stockwellcat said:


> *This won't derail TMs Brexit plans at all*. How is being a Brexiter being part of a cult, that is a bit extreme.


True enough - hard to derail something that doesn't exist


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Hang on, having a different opinon or raising concerns or issues that a lot of people are worried about is now 'disrespectful'? *What do the government want people who voted leave to do, sit down, shut up and when their opinion is wanted it will be given to them? * To be honest, though, it doesn't matter _who_ fills the position, we'll get what the EU choose to give us when we leave, and there's not much we can do to influence that - though our chances of that leaving package being on the more generous end of the equation would be increased with someone diplomatic and tactful a thte negotiating helm. I can't say I classify Farage as either of those...
> *
> *
> Oh, come now - _working_ is a tad strong a term for his level of EU involvement, surely? Elected and turned up once in while, maybe
> 
> True enough - hard to derail something that doesn't exist


Us that voted leave are quite happily sat down 

I love the remainers who keep saying they think that TM doesn't have a plan . How do you know this? Actual proof please.

I call a hard Brexit a plan. We are leaving, not keeping on foot in the door and one foot out like we have for the last 42 years.

Again I am not worried at all. The sooner the UK gets on with leaving the EU without anymore disruptions the better. Leave means leave not staying in via having one foot in and one foot out (we done that for 42 years and look where that got us at last we will be leaving).

True that it doesn't matter who takes over the EU ambassadors job because in two years time we won't have MEPs in the EU as well.

Brexit means leave. Leave means leave. It's up to the EU if they want a free trade deal or not, if not we will still be trading with them through WTO rules and tarriffs.

Looking at the bigger picture the UK will become a global trader. Plus it looks like the EU is in for more shocks in 2017 than it thinks.

Netherlands has elections in March 2017
France has elections afterwards and then Germany. Will be very interesting what happens.


----------



## KittenKong

For anyone to suggest Farage would make a good replacement negotiator fills me with absolute horror. How is taunting the EU going to get "the best deal for Britain" May keeps on about? Making enemies with former EU colleagues will not give that. It only makes the British look more stupid.

Even many who support Brexit found his post referendum taunting at the EU parliament deeply embarrassing and wish to distance themselves from it and Farage.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> For anyone to suggest Farage would make a good replacement negotiator fills me with absolute horror. How is taunting the EU going to get "the best deal for Britain" May keeps on about? Making enemies with former EU colleagues will not give that. It only makes the British look more stupid.
> 
> Even many who support Brexit found his post referendum taunting at the EU parliament deeply embarrassing and wish to distance themselves from it and Farage.


We haven't made any enemy's.








These two look like enemy's (really???)

It doesn't matter any way as Hollande won't be in power, Merkel may well not be in power any way. We'll be probably negotiationing with those sympathetic to Brexit when we get around the negotiationing table in March 2017 or before the year is out. Also we maybe negotiationing with leaders that want to leave the EU also.

Filling you with dread that Farage maybe the next EU Ambassador for the UK. If he is then TM has listened to Trump as he recommended him. Doesn't fill me with dread as he will be able to make sure that the UK leaves the EU and make sure it actually happens.

I think Merkel is dreading that she may well not have a job by the end of the year in her countries elections. So Merkel, Hollande etc being harsh towards the UK maybe pointless in the long run. There might not be an EU to negotiate with before long.


----------



## kimthecat

I seriously doubt very much if May will listen to Trump ! 
There would be a tremendous backlash if he were chosen and we really don't need any more protests and splits.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Us that voted leave are quite happily sat down


And would all Leave voters still be sat down if the referendum ourcome had been 'Remain' by a similar margin? 



stockwellcat said:


> I love the remainers who keep saying they think that TM doesn't have a plan . How do you know this? Actual proof please.
> 
> I call a hard Brexit a plan. We are leaving, not keeping on foot in the door and one foot out like we have for the last 42 years.


I don't call 'hard Brexit' a 'plan'. I call it a mission statement. You know, along the lines of "Our aim as a company is to be the market leader in XYZ product." The detail on exactly how the company intends to become that market leader would be a plan. Thus far there has been no substantial detail from TM, unless it arrived over Christmas whilst I was in the land of no internet.



stockwellcat said:


> Again I am not worried at all. The sooner the UK gets on with leaving the EU without anymore disruptions the better. Leave means leave not staying in via having one foot in and one foot out (we done that for 42 years and look where that got us at last we will be leaving).


You may not be worried. Other are. Listening to their concerns and taking them into account is important and a signof goodleadership, wouldn't you say? 



stockwellcat said:


> True that it doesn't matter who takes over the EU ambassadors job because in two years time we won't have MEPs in the EU as well.
> 
> Brexit means leave. Leave means leave. It's up to the EU if they want a free trade deal or not, if not we will still be trading with them through WTO rules and tarriffs.


Again, we'll have whatever deal the EU is willing to give us. If we are lucky, it will be comparable to the existing agreements. If not, or we choose to go the WTO route, then WTO rules in practice offer very little in protection against discrimination, other than for tarrifs, and no country in the world trades soley with another on WTO rules. Under WTO rules alone there would likely be the extra expenses of import inspections and mandatory independent standards conformity testing of each shipment (up to 10 days delay where lab tests are required, and you pay the testing and vehicle detention fees). Animal products would have to go through the same process as other non-EU members that don't have framework agreements with the EU (China, Autralian, USA etc. may not have a trade agreement in name with the EU, but all have multiple economic framework agreements which in reality amount to the same thing, including mutual recognition of conformity agreements, which means no testing or inspections) designated border inspection posts where they can be inspected and, if necessary, detained for testing. Currently we don't have any of these between the EU and the UK, so they would have to be built and funded before animal product trade could resume.

So WTO rules wouldn't be great - ease of trade is much more than just tarrifs, it would seem 


stockwellcat said:


> Looking at the bigger picture the UK will become a global trader. Plus it looks like the EU is in for more shocks in 2017 than it thinks.
> 
> Netherlands has elections in March 2017
> France has elections afterwards and then Germany. Will be very interesting what happens.


The UK already is a global trader. It's just the majority of trade that is with the EU.  I think I recall reading somewhere that we do more trade with just one of the scandinavian nations (can;t remember which specific one, sorry) than we do with China as a whole.



stockwellcat said:


> We haven't made any enemy's.
> View attachment 296334
> 
> These two look like enemy's (really???)
> 
> It doesn't matter any way as Hollande won't be in power, Merkel may well not be in power any way. We'll be probably negotiationing with those sympathetic to Brexit when we get around the negotiationing table in March 2017 or before the year is out. Also we maybe negotiationing with leaders that want to leave the EU also.
> 
> Filling you with dread that Farage maybe the next EU Ambassador for the UK. If he is then TM has listened to Trump as he recommended him. Doesn't fill me with dread as he will be able to make sure that the UK leaves the EU and make sure it actually happens.
> 
> I think Merkel is dreading that she may well not have a job by the end of the year in her countries elections. So Merkel, Hollande etc being harsh towards the UK maybe pointless in the long run. There might not be an EU to negotiate with before long.
> View attachment 296341


This lot didn't _look_ like enemies whin this was taken


----------



## KittenKong

Stockwellcat said:









So people who've forked out for second passports will have wasted their money as they will no longer be valid across the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> In "The Sun" today, 40,000 jobs will be created due to Brexit!.....


Correction- it's actually "upto 400,000 new jobs in a pro leave bonanza".

From the paper that pledge Gove and Bojo will honour their referendum promises to Sun readers....


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> And would all Leave voters still be sat down if the referendum ourcome had been 'Remain' by a similar margin?
> 
> I don't call 'hard Brexit' a 'plan'. I call it a mission statement. You know, along the lines of "Our aim as a company is to be the market leader in XYZ product." The detail on exactly how the company intends to become that market leader would be a plan. Thus far there has been no substantial detail from TM, unless it arrived over Christmas whilst I was in the land of no internet.
> 
> You may not be worried. Other are. Listening to their concerns and taking them into account is important and a signof goodleadership, wouldn't you say?
> 
> Again, we'll have whatever deal the EU is willing to give us. If we are lucky, it will be comparable to the existing agreements. If not, or we choose to go the WTO route, then WTO rules in practice offer very little in protection against discrimination, other than for tarrifs, and no country in the world trades soley with another on WTO rules. Under WTO rules alone there would likely be the extra expenses of import inspections and mandatory independent standards conformity testing of each shipment (up to 10 days delay where lab tests are required, and you pay the testing and vehicle detention fees). Animal products would have to go through the same process as other non-EU members that don't have framework agreements with the EU (China, Autralian, USA etc. may not have a trade agreement in name with the EU, but all have multiple economic framework agreements which in reality amount to the same thing, including mutual recognition of conformity agreements, which means no testing or inspections) designated border inspection posts where they can be inspected and, if necessary, detained for testing. Currently we don't have any of these between the EU and the UK, so they would have to be built and funded before animal product trade could resume.
> 
> So WTO rules wouldn't be great - ease of trade is much more than just tarrifs, it would seem
> 
> The UK already is a global trader. It's just the majority of trade that is with the EU.  I think I recall reading somewhere that we do more trade with just one of the scandinavian nations (can;t remember which specific one, sorry) than we do with China as a whole.
> 
> This lot didn't _look_ like enemies whin this was taken


If you remember there was a motion vote in Parliament that MPs where willing to back the PM on the article 50 timetable as long as the Brexit plan was revealed. 461 MPs backed this motion only 89 where against. *The plans will be revealed be patient*.

Yes I personally would be still sat down if the vote went in favour of the Remainers. I wouldn't have kicked up a stink like they have, life goes on you know.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> And would all Leave voters still be sat down if the referendum ourcome had been 'Remain' by a similar margin?
> 
> I don't call 'hard Brexit' a 'plan'. I call it a mission statement. You know, along the lines of "Our aim as a company is to be the market leader in XYZ product." The detail on exactly how the company intends to become that market leader would be a plan. Thus far there has been no substantial detail from TM, unless it arrived over Christmas whilst I was in the land of no internet.
> 
> You may not be worried. Other are. Listening to their concerns and taking them into account is important and a signof goodleadership, wouldn't you say?
> 
> Again, we'll have whatever deal the EU is willing to give us. If we are lucky, it will be comparable to the existing agreements. If not, or we choose to go the WTO route, then WTO rules in practice offer very little in protection against discrimination, other than for tarrifs, and no country in the world trades soley with another on WTO rules. Under WTO rules alone there would likely be the extra expenses of import inspections and mandatory independent standards conformity testing of each shipment (up to 10 days delay where lab tests are required, and you pay the testing and vehicle detention fees). Animal products would have to go through the same process as other non-EU members that don't have framework agreements with the EU (China, Autralian, USA etc. may not have a trade agreement in name with the EU, but all have multiple economic framework agreements which in reality amount to the same thing, including mutual recognition of conformity agreements, which means no testing or inspections) designated border inspection posts where they can be inspected and, if necessary, detained for testing. Currently we don't have any of these between the EU and the UK, so they would have to be built and funded before animal product trade could resume.
> 
> So WTO rules wouldn't be great - ease of trade is much more than just tarrifs, it would seem
> 
> The UK already is a global trader. It's just the majority of trade that is with the EU.  I think I recall reading somewhere that we do more trade with just one of the scandinavian nations (can;t remember which specific one, sorry) than we do with China as a whole.
> 
> This lot didn't _look_ like enemies whin this was taken


Your picture isn't a very good comparison as I think kittenkong was on about European enemies the UK have made because of the Brexit vote. We haven't made any enemies over the Brexit vote with any European leaders. Plus we arent leaving Europe or NATO and kittenkong can't get his head around this.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Your picture isn't a very good comparison as I think kittenkong was on about European enemies the UK have made because of the Brexit vote. We haven't made any enemies over the Brexit vote with any European leaders. Plus we arent leaving Europe or NATO and kittenkong can't get his head around this.


Or perhaps they meant "We haven't made any real enemies _yet_, but Farage is a liability..." 

The point was that a smiley photograph means nothing about the true status of a relationship.



stockwellcat said:


> If you remember there was a motion vote in Parliament that MPs where willing to back the PM on the article 50 timetable as long as the Brexit plan was revealed. 461 MPs backed this motion only 89 where against. *The plans will be revealed be patient*.


Just as soon as they've invented some, then?  Neither of us can prove it either way, whether they exist yet or not 

Although they really do need to make sure this time that whatever they come out with can't be met with another "No, we're not letting you have that option" like most of the suggestions bandied about so far.



stockwellcat said:


> Yes I personally would be still sat down if the vote went in favour of the Remainers. I wouldn't have kicked up a stink like they have, life goes on you know.


I didn't say you personally, though. I said 'all Leave voters'


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Your picture isn't a very good comparison as I think kittenkong was on about European enemies the UK have made because of the Brexit vote. We haven't made any enemies over the Brexit vote with any European leaders. Plus we arent leaving Europe or NATO and kittenkong can't get his head around this.


I didn't necessarily say May has become an enemy of the EU. She did say she wants the "Best possible deal" with Europe on its departure. Do you really think Farage is the best man for the job? As I understand it he was never elected to do this.

Don't forget, it wasn't only the extreme right who voted for Brexit. Many on the left did too, Dennis Skinner MP for example.

I think they would have something to say if Farage is appointed let alone moderates, some leave voters amongst them!

If May listens to Trump and does employ Farage how is that, "Taking back control"?

Should be up to the UK government, not the US one as to who they employ. I'm sure some leave voters will agree with this.

I thought Brexit was about leaving Europe, now it could be the UK becoming an annex of Trump's US!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> *I thought Brexit was about leaving Europe*, now it could be the UK becoming an annex of Trump's US!


That's where you are getting confused. We aren't leaving Europe we are leaving the EU. The EU is the political governing body of Europe. The EU is in charge of various things including trade, Schegen Zone, Free Movement etc, etc. There is no physical way we can leave Europe and will still be in Europe when we leave the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding the negative remainer leaving as top EU envoy. Good.


Part of Sir Ivan's resignation email to his staff.




> As I have argued consistently at every level since June, many opportunities for the UK in the future will derive from the mere fact of having left and being free to take a different path.
> 
> But others will depend entirely on the precise shape of deals we can negotiate in the years ahead.


He doesn't sound like a negative 'remainer' to me, but rather as someone with a common sense view, which is what I would hope for in a negotiator.



stockwellcat said:


> Nigel there's a job going and who else would be more suitable than you. You work at the EU after all


Farage isn't interested in getting a good deal for Britain. He wants the UK to be free of any influence from outside our borders; a pure and simple and somewhat primitive tribal outlook. If the UK suffers economically because of it, he cares not. He is the last person I would want trying to negotiate a deal on behalf of the British people.



stockwellcat said:


> Brexit means leave. Leave means leave. It's up to the EU if they want a free trade deal or not, if not we will still be trading with them through WTO rules and tarriffs.


'Leave' means no longer being signatories to the founding Treaties required of EU members. Nothing else. We can, if we wish, reach bilateral agreements such that, in practice, nothing at all will have changed. All other interpretations and details are the individual wishes of Leave voters.


----------



## noushka05

Here we go. An exclusive look at the new job spec for the UK Ambassador to the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Part of Sir Ivan's resignation email to his staff.
> 
> He doesn't sound like a negative 'remainer' to me, but rather as someone with a common sense view, which is what I would hope for in a negotiator.
> 
> Farage isn't interested in getting a good deal for Britain. He wants the UK to be free of any influence from outside our borders; a pure and simple and somewhat primitive tribal outlook. If the UK suffers economically because of it, he cares not. He is the last person I would want trying to negotiate a deal on behalf of the British people.
> 
> 'Leave' means no longer being signatories to the founding Treaties required of EU members. Nothing else. We can, if we wish, reach bilateral agreements such that, in practice, nothing at all will have changed. All other interpretations and details are the individual wishes of Leave voters.


So if it is this simple then why are remainers kicking up such a stink if we can still trade under bilateral agreements? I have no other wishes but to leave the EU at this stage as this is what I voted for. If it is as simple as you say why then does it take 2+ years to conclude such a simple formula?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> So if it is this simple then why are remainers kicking up such a stink if we can still trade under bilateral agreements? I have no other wishes but to leave the EU at this stage as this is what I voted for. If it is as simple as you say why then does it take 2+ years to conclude such a simple formula?


It wouldn't be simple. It would allow for the Leave result of the referendum to be respected, and no other change to be made. But it won't happen, of course.

Any bilateral agreements to be signed will be as the result of negotiated agreements between the UK and the EU27. The Tories haven't yet agreed what they want, but many will not want anything that keeps us in the customs union, or with free movement of people etc.

As for the 2 years, that is only to agree the terms of our divorce; who pays for Neil Kinnock's pension, what happens to EU nationals in the UK and vice versa, what happens to existing financial commitments stretching over the next X years, what happens to our membership of various organisations, etc. It must take into account the framework of a trading relationship, but it doesn't require the detail. That is going to be thrashed out later. Sir Ivan reckoned it might take a decade, especially if we start doing it on an industry by industry basis, which we very well might.

What this particular remainer is kicking up a stink about is that the extreme Tories want us to leave not only the EU, but the single market and the customs union, so that come the end of the two years we will have free trade deals with precisely no-one. We will jump off a cliff in April 2019 with nothing but hope that half way down we discover that we can fly.

What I'm hoping is that the government will not gamble my future and that of my family on such a leap.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It wouldn't be simple. It would allow for the Leave result of the referendum to be respected, and no other change to be made. But it won't happen, of course.
> 
> Any bilateral agreements to be signed will be as the result of negotiated agreements between the UK and the EU27. The Tories haven't yet agreed what they want, but many will not want anything that keeps us in the customs union, or with free movement of people etc.
> 
> As for the 2 years, that is only to agree the terms of our divorce; who pays for Neil Kinnock's pension, what happens to EU nationals in the UK and vice versa, what happens to existing financial commitments stretching over the next X years, what happens to our membership of various organisations, etc. It must take into account the framework of a trading relationship, but it doesn't require the detail. That is going to be thrashed out later. Sir Ivan reckoned it might take a decade, especially if we start doing it on an industry by industry basis, which we very well might.
> 
> What this particular remainer is kicking up a stink about is that the extreme Tories want us to leave not only the EU, but the single market and the customs union, so that come the end of the two years we will have free trade deals with precisely no-one. We will jump off a cliff in April 2019 with nothing but hope that half way down we discover that we can fly.
> 
> What I'm hoping is that the government will not gamble my future and that of my family on such a leap.


But being in the customs union and single market is part of the EU so leaving the EU would mean the single market access and customs union would also cease for the UK. Didn't you know that they are all inter-linked?

Leaving the EU means leave not stay in any part of the EU to stay in via the back door so to speak.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Sir Tim Barrow new UK envoy to EU - Sky sources*

Sir Tim Barrow will replace Sir Ivan Rogers as the UK's ambassador to the European Union, Sky sources say.

http://news.sky.com/story/sir-tim-barrow-new-uk-envoy-to-eu-sky-sources-10718079

Sir Tim Barrow was the UK's Ambassador to Russia previously.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> Sir Tim Barrow was the UK's Ambassador to Russia previously.


He'll know how to deal with hostiles then


----------



## KittenKong

Who's moaning now? Not only NF didn't get the job he didn't get knighted (yet) either!


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 296395
> 
> 
> Who's moaning now? Not only NF didn't get the job he didn't get knighted (yet) either!


Terrible. They chose another expert?
Why not a traffic warden or a ex miner? Where is power for the people/Nige ?

In two years Gibraltar and Falklands would be given away lick, stock and barrel. Will nor make much difference to us because our economy would be ruined and people forced to abandon everything and go homeless to look for work in UK.

Which will be full of unemployment by then...
Sir Ivan tried to warn you that you cannot have trade with no trade deals.
WTO needs agreement from all members , that includes Argentina and Spain. Will not happen if Falklands and Gibraltar are not surrendered.
Yes. You will be in Europe. With Russia. Your new best friend. You already adopting their way of thinking
- disrespect for PM if you happen to know you are talking about and she clearly does not? Neither her ministers?
Government chosen on base of loyalty not knowledge?
Who sucks up the best gets the highest?
Any opposition supressed?
Papers can only publish sycophantic pamphlets?

You basically put Iron Curtain on yourselves.


----------



## stockwellcat.

To those remainers who think they know it all and think that TM doesn't have a plan for Brexit will be shocked as TM is revealing the Brexit plan by the end of (31st) January 2017 (They are stopping short of revealing the UKs negoating hand). *So you'll have to just be patient*. This isn't her giving into demands it was agreed to when the motion vote took place in Parliament last year, that was the vote where 461 MPs backed TMs plan to trigger article 50 by the 31st March 2017 and only 89 voted against. *TM also has a bill ready to present to Parliament if the Government lose the Supreme Court Appeal.* The bill is expected to only take up to 5 days to go through Parliament. *MPs have already shown they are behind the Government with the motion vote in Parliament*. So what happens in the next 11 weeks will happen pretty swiftly and then it will be article 50 time.
*I have said it before remainers be patient all will be revealed. Alot of hard work is going on behind the scenes out of the public eye. *There is a reason why there is no running commentary on Brexit and that is so the Governments negoating hand isn't revealed so the UK stands a chance of getting a deal it wants.

You need to be patient a little while longer.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> If you remember there was a motion vote in Parliament that MPs where willing to back the PM on the article 50 timetable as long as the Brexit plan was revealed. 461 MPs backed this motion only 89 where against. *The plans will be revealed be patient*.
> 
> Yes I personally would be still sat down if the vote went in favour of the Remainers. I wouldn't have kicked up a stink like they have, life goes on you know.


True, doesnt matter how great the victory was! Same as any race just because someone pits you at the Post by a millimetre of a second you can't re run the race,


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> To those remainers who think they know it all and think that TM doesn't have a plan for Brexit will be shocked as TM is revealing the Brexit plan by the end of (31st) January 2017 (They are stopping short of revealing the UKs negoating hand). *So you'll have to just be patient*. This isn't her giving into demands it was agreed to when the motion vote took place in Parliament last year, that was the vote where 461 MPs backed TMs plan to trigger article 50 by the 31st March 2017 and only 89 voted against. *TM also has a bill ready to present to Parliament if the Government lose the Supreme Court Appeal.* The bill is expected to only take up to 5 days to go through Parliament. *MPs have already shown they are behind the Government with the motion vote in Parliament*. So what happens in the next 11 weeks will happen pretty swiftly and then it will be article 50 time.
> *I have said it before remainers be patient all will be revealed. Alot of hard work is going on behind the scenes out of the public eye. *There is a reason why there is no running commentary on Brexit and that is so the Governments negoating hand isn't revealed so the UK stands a chance of getting a deal it wants.
> 
> You need to be patient a little while longer.


She doesn't have anything to negotiate with. We already know this.

Sorry @stockwellcat but we don't all have blind faith in pathological liars. This person intends to strip us of our human rights, if that doesn't ring your alarm bells I fear nothing will..

Anyway, here's another reality check for you.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 296395
> 
> 
> Who's moaning now? Not only NF didn't get the job he didn't get knighted (yet) either!


Huh and theres another joke! The new years honours list,


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> *Sir Tim Barrow new UK envoy to EU - Sky sources*
> 
> Sir Tim Barrow will replace Sir Ivan Rogers as the UK's ambassador to the European Union, Sky sources say.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/sir-tim-barrow-new-uk-envoy-to-eu-sky-sources-10718079
> 
> Sir Tim Barrow was the UK's Ambassador to Russia previously.


You must be gutted:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> She doesn't have anything to negotiate with. We already know this.
> 
> Sorry @stockwellcat but we don't all have blind faith in pathological liars. This person intends to strip us of our human rights, if that doesn't ring your alarm bells I fear nothing will..
> 
> Anyway, here's another reality check for you.
> 
> View attachment 296431
> 
> 
> View attachment 296432
> 
> 
> View attachment 296434


I said it before.
It doesn't matter what Hollande and Merkel want anymore as they won't be in power by the end of the year in there countries and by the end of the year we'll probably have leaders sympathetic to Brexit and wanting there countries to leave the EU (France - Marine le Penn, Germany and Netherlands - Geert Wilders).

There you go again. How do you know the Government has nothing to negotiate with? Have you seen some top secret files the rest of the public haven't seen? There is alot of rumours flying around and they are only rumours.

Economists have been wrong so far.
Experts have been wrong so far (the economy would crash after the Brexit vote - no it didn't the economy is on the up, the markets are more stable than they ever have been).
You chose to follow there advice.

Regarding farmers, they interviewed a farmer on the news yesterday who openly said he voted out and wants the Government to get on with it. He said that he doesn't need EU subsidies.

All this scaremongering you keep doing is water off a duck's back so with respect roll on 31st March 2017.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You must be gutted:Hilarious


Nope. Not really. We have a new tough negotiator. Not gutted at all.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> I said it before.
> It doesn't matter what Hollande and Merkel want anymore as they won't be in power by the end of the year in there countries and by the end of the year we'll probably have leaders sympathetic to Brexit and wanting there countries to leave the EU (France - Marine le Penn, Germany and Netherlands - Geert Wilders).
> 
> Economists have been wrong so far.
> Experts have been wrong so far (the economy would crash after the Brexit vote - no it didn't the economy is on the up, the markets are more stable than they ever have been).
> You chose to follow there advice.
> 
> Regarding farmers, they interviewed a farmer on the news yesterday who openly said he voted out and wants the Government to get on with it. He said that he doesn't need EU subsidies.
> 
> All this scaremongering you keep doing is water off a duck's back so with respect roll on 31st March 2017.


Oh dear, haven't you heard? 
The disaster of Brexit is scaring the French so badly that even Le Pen no longer wants to leave the EU.

It seems Brexit is becoming something of a cautionary tale  Which is very good to hear.

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017...urns-on-leaving-the-eu-and-ditching-the-euro/


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Oh dear, haven't you heard?
> The disaster of Brexit is scaring the French so badly that even Le Pen no longer wants to leave the EU.
> 
> It seems Brexit is becoming something of a cautionary tale  Which is very good to hear.
> 
> https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017...urns-on-leaving-the-eu-and-ditching-the-euro/


And mean while this is the real news story on this:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.po...-after-frexit/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola

*Marine Le Pen calls for return to ECU-style currency after 'Frexit'*

PARIS - French far-right leader Marine Le Pen said on Tuesday that Europe should retain a single currency even if France withdraws from the euro zone, nuancing her previous position.

The National Front chief has long called for "Frexit," a French withdrawal from the European Union. This would happen after a referendum on EU membership if she was elected next May (Le Pen has suggested that she would step down if the French rejected her preferred outcome).

But this time she said that after a referendum, Europe should retain a common currency, the euro, in parallel to the French franc. It was the first time Le Pen had recognized, however implicitly, that withdrawing from the euro zone unilaterally could bring about currency fluctuations, which the ECU was designed to prevent. Most French voters do not support withdrawal from the European Union, according to polls in 2016.

"I want a national currency with the euro as a common currency," Le Pen said on BFMTV. "What was the ECU [European Currency Unit]?"

The shift came as Le Pen launched her presidential campaign and unveiled a series of campaign proposals, including vows to retain France's 35-hour legal working week, end birthright citizenship and rewrite the Constitution to slash the number of MPs.

On the euro, National Front cadres have repeatedly hinted that Le Pen could water down her position before the election. Brutal withdrawal from the euro zone is particularly unpopular with senior voters who want to protect their assets from currency fluctuations.

Philippe Murer, Le Pen's economic adviser, told POLITICO that her position on the currency had not changed fundamentally. A return to the ECU, a basket of European currencies that existed before the euro, was one of several options being studied in the event of a withdrawal from the Euro, he said.

It's a total different story in the Netherlands. Geert Wilders party the PVV is gaining pace at a rapid rate as the elections near in March 2017. His party is the strongest in the Netherlands at the moment and way ahead in the polls. His manifesto is to hold a Nexit referendum as soon as possible to withdraw the Netherlands from the EU. The idea of a referendum is causing is party to get stronger as the Dutch want it. So what implications will this have if the Dutch do get there referendum and leave the EU?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> And mean while this is the real news story on this:
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.po...-after-frexit/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola
> 
> *Marine Le Pen calls for return to ECU-style currency after 'Frexit'*
> 
> PARIS - French far-right leader Marine Le Pen said on Tuesday that Europe should retain a single currency even if France withdraws from the euro zone, nuancing her previous position.
> 
> The National Front chief has long called for "Frexit," a French withdrawal from the European Union. This would happen after a referendum on EU membership if she was elected next May (Le Pen has suggested that she would step down if the French rejected her preferred outcome).
> 
> But this time she said that after a referendum, Europe should retain a common currency, the euro, in parallel to the French franc. It was the first time Le Pen had recognized, however implicitly, that withdrawing from the euro zone unilaterally could bring about currency fluctuations, which the ECU was designed to prevent. Most French voters do not support withdrawal from the European Union, according to polls in 2016.
> 
> "I want a national currency with the euro as a common currency," Le Pen said on BFMTV. "What was the ECU [European Currency Unit]?"
> 
> The shift came as Le Pen launched her presidential campaign and unveiled a series of campaign proposals, including vows to retain France's 35-hour legal working week, end birthright citizenship and rewrite the Constitution to slash the number of MPs.
> 
> On the euro, National Front cadres have repeatedly hinted that Le Pen could water down her position before the election. Brutal withdrawal from the euro zone is particularly unpopular with senior voters who want to protect their assets from currency fluctuations.
> 
> Philippe Murer, Le Pen's economic adviser, told POLITICO that her position on the currency had not changed fundamentally. A return to the ECU, a basket of European currencies that existed before the euro, was one of several options being studied in the event of a withdrawal from the Euro, he said.


EU citizens appear to now value their EU membership - brexiteffect.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Experts predicted fall of pound. And now predicting another one. Which means price rise. Inflation growing.
Experts also predict climate change.
Tell you that smoking and obesity are bad for you...
And when your knee hurts you want expert to see it?
Yes, errate humanum est ... But overall I rather trust in knowledge than in optimism and optimism alone...


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> EU citizens appear to now value their EU membership - brexiteffect.
> 
> View attachment 296441


Sorry what colour represents what on this graph?

I notice the Netherlands and another 14 countries (15 countries are missing in total from the remaining 27 countries of the EU) are not on the list as well.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Experts predicted fall of pound. And now predicting another one. Which means price rise. Inflation growing.
> Experts also predict climate change.
> Tell you that smoking and obesity are bad for you...
> And when your knee hurts you want expert to see it?
> Yes, errate humanum est ... But overall I rather trust in knowledge than in optimism and optimism alone...


So you would believe so called experts who so far predicted doom and gloom and scaremongered people above facts that nothing of what they predicted happened.

UK Markets are best they have ever been.

Economy on the way up not down.

The pound will fluxuate as I previously explained before, currencies always fluxuate.

Experts predicted after the Brexit vote that:
The economy would crash. Didn't happen.
The UK Stock Market would crash. Didn't happen.

It's amazing they supposedly know everything and what they predicted didn't happen after the referendum vote.

Regarding my professional GP/Doctor I listen to him and then make my own decisions. I don't always agree with him and don't always follow his advice. I am a 42 year old person and can judge for myself what advice I wish to follow and what I wish to ignore.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Sorry what colour represents what on this graph?
> 
> I notice the Netherlands and another 14 countries (15 countries are missing in total from the remaining 27 countries of the EU) are not on the list as well.


Oops sorry, I forgot the link. ( I haven't had chance to read your le pen link by the way)

https://www.indy100.com/article/bre...-leave-eu-europe-study-shows-regrexit-7499991

*Regrexit - AKA Brexit regret - is a real thing.*

Maybe it stems from the misleading promises surrounding NHS funding, the sudden increase in hate crimes, or it could simply be because our best plan is currently a "red, white and blue Brexit," whatever that means.

For some of the 52 per cent, the regret could originate from some of the scary statistics that are currently coming to light. A report published by thinktank IPPR this week states that Brexit "is the firing gun on a decade of disruption".

With this in mind, it doesn't come as much of a surprise that all countries in Europe, including the UK, would vote to Remain if there was a referendum now - that's according to the End of Year survey of 14,000 people across 13 countries, by the Worldwide Independent Network of Market Research / Gallup International Association (WIN/GIA):


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Oops sorry, I forgot the link. ( I haven't had chance to read your le pen link by the way)
> 
> https://www.indy100.com/article/bre...-leave-eu-europe-study-shows-regrexit-7499991
> 
> *Regrexit - AKA Brexit regret - is a real thing.*
> 
> Maybe it stems from the misleading promises surrounding NHS funding, the sudden increase in hate crimes, or it could simply be because our best plan is currently a "red, white and blue Brexit," whatever that means.
> 
> For some of the 52 per cent, the regret could originate from some of the scary statistics that are currently coming to light. A report published by thinktank IPPR this week states that Brexit "is the firing gun on a decade of disruption".
> 
> With this in mind, it doesn't come as much of a surprise that all countries in Europe, including the UK, would vote to Remain if there was a referendum now - that's according to the End of Year survey of 14,000 people across 13 countries, by the Worldwide Independent Network of Market Research / Gallup International Association (WIN/GIA):


Thanks for the link.
This is one of many polls around. Sky Data Poll says that those that voted leave would still vote leave if a referendum re-run was done minus 1% differential. But I said this the other day. Where do they get these polls as you can't vote on them anywhere online. Plus it's been proven the UK polls are tosh.

I have no regrets at all about the way I voted.

Again I will take this newspaper poll with a pinch of salt. Read the readers comments at the bottom of the linked news article and see how people actually feel about these polls.


----------



## stockwellcat.

FTSE (UK Markets) hit all time high again yesterday at close of business:









It is currently trading at 7,201.24 up by 11.50 points (0.16%) as of 10:06am on 5th January 2017.

Live Stock Exchange data: http://www.londonstockexchange.com/...ndices/summary/summary-indices.html?index=UKX


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ise-populist-right?client=ms-android-motorola

*Martin Schulz: EU hamstrung by Brexit and rise of populist right*

*







*

The EU has failed to move on from the cataclysmic Brexit vote and is hamstrung by the failure of national leaders to sell the European vision back home, according to a valedictory interview with one of the bloc's key figures.

The outgoing president of the European parliament, Martin Schulz, said Brussels was "treading water" because national governments had lacked political courage in the face of the rise of the populist right.

In his last major interview before a widely expected move to the frontline of German politics, Schulz told the Europa group of newspapers there had been a paradigm change in national leaders' attitudes to the EU, which was threatening to undermine its stability.

"The generation of [Helmut] Kohl and [François] Mitterrand travelled to Brussels with the attitude that a strong Europe is in the interest of our country," he said. "The [Viktor] Orbán generation says 'we have to defend the interests of our country against Europe' - as if they were being attacked by Brussels."


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...unker-collapse/amp?client=ms-android-motorola

*EU ON THE BRINK: Brussels is 'TREADING WATER' and 'CANNOT COPE' with historic Brexit vote*

OUTGOING European Parliament president Martin Schulz claims Brussels is still mourning Britain's historic decision to quit Brussels and admits the crumbling bloc is "treading water" as it fails to face up to populist movements across Europe.

In what is expected to be his last major interview as head of the European Parliament, Schulz said some Brussels bureaucrats are failing to understand the realities of the problems faced by people across Europe.

He told the Europa newspaper group: "Some people in the apparatuses of Brussels are indeed far decoupled from the reality which confronts people on a day-to-day basis.

"Only taking notice of Brussels can make you believe that Brussels life is the reality of people in Europe."

Schulz admitted the EU was "treading water" as increasing support for populist movements left national governments unable to sell the European vision in their home nations.

He also conceded that Brussels had underestimated cultural differences between the Western EU member states and the more recent additions in Eastern Europe, such as Hungary and the Baltic states.

Schulz admitted: "We underestimated how the two halves of Europe had drifted apart.

"The cultural, scientific and political structures of the west cannot be adopted one to one."

Schulz is widely expected to return to German politics ahead of the country's general election this year, with the Social Democratic party (SPD) politician tipped to replace foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier in one of the most high-profile political roles.

However, the European Parliament president is unlikely to run for Chancellor, following claims he does not want to cause possible divisions within the SPD by running against party leader Sigmar Gabriel.

No official decision will be taken by the party until the end of the month about who will be the party's candidate for Germany's top political job that could see the current incumbent Angela Merkel ousted.

Schulz announced he would be leaving his Brussels role in November and appears likely to gain a seat in Germany's Bundestag in the general election later this year.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*The economic consensus was horribly wrong and here are the real reasons Brexit is succeeding*

A former deputy director of the International Monetary Fund's European and Research Departments, writing exclusively for The Independent, explains why the performance of the UK economy has confounded expectations since last June's referendum and why an even bigger political prize is on offer.
In the days before the vote on whether Britain should remain in the European Union, a chorus of voices warned that a decision to leave would lead to economic disaster.

At home, the warnings came from former Chancellor of Exchequer George Osborne and Bank of England Governor Mark Carney.

Abroad, grim forecasts were made by Christine Lagarde, managing director of the IMF, and by José Ángel Gurría, secretary-general of the OECD.






























US President Barack Obama weighed in to declare that Britain would be sent to the "back of the queue" in negotiating a trade agreement with the United States.

After the public voted on 23 June for Brexit, for Britain to leave the European Union, Carney, Lagarde, and Gurría continued to predict dire outcomes.

It is now six months since the Brexit vote, and the economic news is stunningly good. Not only did these warnings not bear out, the economy has performed much better than the expectations of even those, like me, who believed that Britain would be mildly bruised but would not be battered.

A disruption, I thought, was inevitable but it would be only temporary because the estimates of long-term costs of Brexit projected by Osborne and many academics were outlandishly high.

Loss of privileged access at low or zero tariffs to the European Union markets should reduce British trade somewhat but this will be overcome by shifting trade to the more dynamic non-European countries, a shift that has, in any case, been ongoing.

And because, therefore, long-term costs were modest, short-run uncertainties and immediate disruption, I had expected, would also be limited.

But after a brief fall right after the vote, stock markets gave a "thumbs up."

The FTSE 100, which includes the major multinational companies and even the broader-based FTSE 250 indicated early that things were likely to be okay.

Since then, the economic data has borne out that early stock market cheer. GDP growth in the quarter after Brexit exceeded not only the grim predictions around the referendum vote but exceeded even the forecasts from earlier in the year when Brexit was not considered a risk.

Consumers do not seem fearful of the future and have shown a remarkable willingness to keep the economy humming.

Yes, there are concerns that things could yet go wrong.

Business investment has slowed, as has employment growth.

But the data could equally be interpreted as saying that after the economy's bounce back in the months before Brexit, a pause was inevitable as the labor market tightened.

Now, instead of generating more investment and employment, the data suggest that the British economy is consolidating to raise the productivity of those already employed and deliver them healthy wage increases.

Many, however, continue to believe that the real damage from the Brexit decision is evident in the sharp fall in value of the British pound, an almost 20 percent loss against the US dollar. British residents have become poorer because they now need to work harder to buy goods from abroad.

But even this "self-evident truth" is based on a flawed reading of the data.

The British pound had become greatly overvalued between 2012 and 2015.

International speculators, believing that London property was a "safe asset" had poured money into the UK, bidding up property prices and the value of the pound.

The rise in the pound's value had made British exports pricier and imports cheaper, which caused imports to increase more rapidly than exports.

And Britain was borrowing to pay for this indulgence. In effect, the country was living beyond its means and a fall in the pound was inevitable.

The clue in understanding the reason for the pound's fall lies in the sharp decline in the stock prices of property-related assets following the Brexit decision.

This fall predicted that property prices would soon fall. And, indeed, the latest data show that London property values - especially for the most exclusive real estate - have nose-dived from their stratospheric levels.

Altogether, the decline in the pound's value and the accompanying decline in property prices is a welcome outcome for Britain.

The imbalance between exports and imports should decline, which will generate more jobs in the long-term, and housing will become more affordable.

The final threat from Brexit is said to be a likely rapid increase in inflation.

Some are worried that the rise in import prices because of the pound's depreciation will feed into higher domestic prices.

The highly publicised increase in the prices of Marmite and the shrinkage of Toblerone chocolate bars are read as pointers of more to come.

Yet, aggregate inflation data has barely budged. Consumer inflation remains at just over 1 percent, a level well below the Bank of England's 2 percent target.

Again, the inference is straightforward.

Before the Brexit decision, Britain's domestic prices were extraordinarily high, as visitors to the country were made painfully aware.

Amidst pockets of great wealth in the elite districts of Britain, retailers were able to charge high mark ups and pad their profits.

Now, although retailers are being forced to pay more for their foreign purchases, they cannot afford to pass those increases on to the consumer, or else they risk losing business.

Notwithstanding solid economic performance despite the unprecedented Brexit decision, some say that real trouble lies ahead.

Banks are expected to leave for the European continent, taking with them jobs and tax revenues.

But if banks do leave, that would be another good outcome for the British economy.

Banks have fuelled the finance-property price nexus and have drawn the best talent to flip financial assets.

A smaller banking sector will mean a more balanced British economy.

And as for those who expect that the economy will suffer when the details of the divorce with the European Union are revealed, their logic does not work. It is the uncertainty of what lies ahead that should depress the economy.

Once details become clearer, businesses will adapt. The fact that six months after the decision, the economy is doing so well is a judgement that Brexit could deliver a net economic dividend.

But the greater prize from Brexit lies in a possible political dividend. Western democracy is under the threat of authoritarian populism.

Mainstream political parties, having for long failed to heed the calls of those being left behind, are being pushed aside by charlatans.

The Brexit vote was a cry of despair by the poorly educated and those employed in dead-end jobs; many such Brexiters have reason to fear that their children will do even worse than them.

Through their vote to leave the European Union, the most vulnerable have given another opportunity to the Conservative Party rather than to a government run by self-promoting and destructive extremists.

Brexit will happen.

Prime Minister Theresa May's government must heed the true message of the Brexit vote.

The task is to regenerate the communities that have turned into wastelands and spread quality education to prepare ever larger numbers of British citizens for the rigours of a 21st century competitive global economy.

If the government succeeds in this greater task, then Britain would not only have done well for itself, it would become a beacon amidst the desolate and depressing decay of Western politics and social norms.

_Ashoka Mody is Visiting Professor of International Economic Policy at Princeton University and former deputy director of the International Monetary Fund's European and Research Departments

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-a7509711.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola_


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> So you would believe so called experts who so far predicted doom and gloom and scaremongered people above facts that nothing of what they predicted happened.
> 
> UK Markets are best they have ever been.
> 
> Economy on the way up not down.
> 
> The pound will fluxuate as I previously explained before, currencies always fluxuate.
> 
> Experts predicted after the Brexit vote that:
> The economy would crash. Didn't happen.
> The UK Stock Market would crash. Didn't happen.
> 
> It's amazing they supposedly know everything and what they predicted didn't happen after the referendum vote.
> 
> Regarding my professional GP/Doctor I listen to him and then make my own decisions. I don't always agree with him and don't always follow his advice. I am a 42 year old person and can judge for myself what advice I wish to follow Stick and what I wish to ignore.


As you said: After Brexit economy would crash. Stock market would crash. 
Not before. So far pound crashed. 
As predicted.

Article 50 not triggered yet? Or have I missed something?

So far pound fell and soon enough prices will reflect that.
So far all promises about how much NHS will get etc..proved to be campaign's lies.

We have rise of hatred. 
We have rise of taxes.
So far...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> As you said: After Brexit economy would crash. Stock market would crash.
> Not before. So far pound crashed.
> As predicted.
> 
> Article 50 not triggered yet? Or have I missed something?
> 
> So far pound fell and soon enough prices will reflect that.
> So far all promises about how much NHS will get etc..proved to be campaign's lies.
> 
> We have rise of hatred.
> We have rise of taxes.
> So far...


I suggest you read the latest news report from _Ashoka Mody is Visiting Professor of International Economic Policy at Princeton University and former deputy director of the International Monetary Fund's European and Research Departments.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...exit-succeeding-ashoka-mody-imf-a7509711.html
_
Stop twisting my words as well as I said as a result of the Brexit vote.

You do like doom and gloom don't you. Well apparently we are doing alot better than predicted by George Osbourne, David Cameron and the remain campaigners and IMF. Facts speak louder than rubbish being spouted by remainers. Even Martin Shulz the outgoing President of the EU is saying that Brussels is treading water.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ise-populist-right?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> You do like doom and gloom don't you. *Well apparently we are doing alot better than predicted by George Osbourne*, David Cameron and the remain campaigners and IMF. Facts speak louder than rubbish being spouted by remainers. Even Martin Shulz the outgoing President of the EU is saying that Brussels is treading water.
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ise-populist-right?client=ms-android-motorola


*Maybe so, but we haven't left yet have we!*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> *Maybe so, but we haven't left yet have we!*


Well if the remainers stopped all these court cases trying to subvert the will of the British people we would be leaving. We will be leaving via hopefully a hard Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

@stockwellcat you are the perfect envoy for EU
Not career diplomat. Not knighted. Not an expert. Optimistic regardless and happy to say yes to TM.

Possibly less harmful than Nigel as you have nicer manners.

Already happy to blame Remain or EU lest anything goes wrong...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> @stockwellcat you are the perfect envoy for EU


You think so. Ok if I was I'd highly recommend a super hard Brexit and find a way to bye pass Brussels.
*



as you have nicer manners.

Click to expand...

*Oh thank you for the flattering reference :Happy



> Already happy to blame Remain or EU lest anything goes wrong...


 I think you will find Brexit will be successful when it happens two years after the negotiations take place. We might not get everything we want but exiting the EU will happen one way or the other. TM will reveal an outline of the Brexit plans before the end of January 2017. You have to understand she can't reveal everything as that would make the UK lose its negotiating hand if we did. Regarding the EU let's see if it exists in two years. Martin Shulz the EU's outgoing Preaident doesn't seem overly confident anymore.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well if the remainers stopped all these court cases trying to subvert the will of the British people we would be leaving. We will be leaving via hopefully a hard Brexit.


The will of 52% of people who voted that is.

Yes, I understand democracy, that's why I respect the vote in Scotland, NI and Gibraltar too....

A hard Brexit will not unite the UK!


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Well if the remainers stopped all these court cases trying to subvert the will of the British people we would be leaving. We will be leaving via hopefully a hard Brexit.


Things have to be done by the letter of law.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The will of 52% of people who voted that is.
> 
> Yes, I understand democracy, that's why I respect the vote in Scotland, NI and Gibraltar too....
> 
> A hard Brexit will not unite the UK!


Scotland won't get to stay in the EU as Sturgeon wishes and has made plans to. Spain have already indicated that they will veto any plans as they said the UK has to leave as a whole. Regarding independence a recent survey has indicated Scots would still vote in favour of staying in the UK. Northern Ireland don't want independence and aren't kicking up a fuss like Scotland are. Northern Ireland will never reunite with the Republic of Ireland under any circumstance this has already been discussed both sides of the border.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Things have to be done by the letter of law.


Well it is, isn't it?

TM has the bill ready to pass through Parliament if the Supreme Court Appeal fails. 461 MPs are in favour of TMs plans for triggering article 50 only 89 are against.

Regarding using Prerogative powers to trigger article 50, as the Government highlighted in the appeal these powers are used alot and we'll just have to wait to see what the Supreme Judges think. If they can't rule on it, it will be passed to the European Courts of Justice to rule on. The Supreme Court Judges are split on ruling on Prerogative powers at the moment. The other court cases may not even be entertained by the High Court of the UK and Ireland as they are being considered at the moment and maybe dismissed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The will of 52% of people who voted that is.
> 
> Yes, I understand democracy, that's why I respect the vote in Scotland, NI and Gibraltar too....
> 
> A hard Brexit will not unite the UK!


I much prefer this figure: 17,410,742 than 52% plus there was no actual high/lower figures agreed in the referendum results it was a case of whoever wins, wins. But we have all moved on from this now @KittenKong and it is a matter of how article 50 is triggered now eg the court case appeal. I am sorry you feel you can't move on from the actual results.

MPs are backing TM by a majority of 461 to 89 in favour of her plans to trigger article 50 and as part of this deal is she reveals the outline of the Brexit negotiations which she said she will do by the end of January 2017. Patience is needed right now. It isn't TMs fault Cameron failed to have a plan B in place in the case that vote leave won.

The next 11 or 12 weeks are going to go fast and as we enter Spring time 2017 we'll be negotiating with the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Oh


stockwellcat said:


> Scotland won't get to stay in the EU as Sturgeon wishes and has made plans to. Spain have already indicated that they will veto any plans as they said the UK has to leave as a whole. Regarding independence a recent survey has indicated Scots would still vote in favour of staying in the UK. Northern Ireland don't want independence and aren't kicking up a fuss like Scotland are. Northern Ireland will never reunite with the Republic of Ireland under any circumstance this has already been discussed both sides of the border.


Yes. Spain will veto everything. WTO. Scotland. NI. Until get Gibraltar. 
Which UK first ruin, then hand in.

To be honest I do nor get this joy when any EU country faces problems or EU as such"
Why would collapse of democratic countries next to us and our allies be a reason to celebrate?

Then stretch hands to countries where people live in terror, where tortures and mass executions are acceptable, where invading smaller countries is a norm?
You forgot Tiananmen?
Ukraine?
Countries where dogs are boiled alive are to be our next best pals?
South American regimes? Countries where former Soviet spy represents the will.of group of mobsters?

And Australia however lovely is still a bit far...think CO2 imprint if they were to be our main trading partners?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh
> Yes. Spain will veto everything. WTO. Scotland. NI. Until get Gibraltar.
> Which UK first ruin, then hand in.
> 
> To be honest I do nor get this joy when any EU country faces problems or EU as such"
> Why would collapse of democratic countries next to us and our allies be a reason to celebrate?
> 
> Then stretch hands to countries where people live in terror, where tortures and mass executions are acceptable, where invading smaller countries is a norm?
> You forgot Tiananmen?
> Ukraine?
> Countries where dogs are boiled alive are to be our next best pals?
> South American regimes? Countries where former Soviet spy represents the will.of group of mobsters?
> 
> And Australia however lovely is still a bit far...think CO2 imprint if they were to be our main trading partners?


Boy you do worry don't you.

We are talking about the UKs exit from the EU last time I looked on this thread.

The EU is collapsing and we (The UK) have been saying this for years. It's rediculas that 27 countries can't agree to disagree with one another on making simple decisions.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> But being in the customs union and single market is part of the EU so leaving the EU would mean the single market access and customs union would also cease for the UK. Didn't you know that they are all inter-linked?
> 
> Leaving the EU means leave not stay in any part of the EU to stay in via the back door so to speak.


As I said before, membership of the EU is being a signatory to the Treaties, nothing more, nothing less.

Norway is not a member of the EU but has single market access.

Turkey is not a member of the EU but is a member of the customs union through the Ankara agreement.

Switzerland is not a member of the EU but has single market access through separately negotiated bilateral agreements.

Iceland is not a member of the EU but has single market access as a member of the EEA

Likewise Liechtenstein.

Leaving the EU does not have to mean leaving either the single market or the Customs Union.

Didn't you know that they were separate?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> As I said before, membership of the EU is being a signatory to the Treaties, nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> Norway is not a member of the EU but has single market access.
> 
> Turkey is not a member of the EU but is a member of the customs union through the Ankara agreement.
> 
> Switzerland is not a member of the EU but has single market access through separately negotiated bilateral agreements.
> 
> Iceland is not a member of the EU but has single market access as a member of the EEA
> 
> Likewise Liechtenstein.
> 
> Leaving the EU does not have to mean leaving either the single market or the Customs Union.
> 
> Didn't you know that they were separate?


Well the UK wants full control over its borders and TM has made this a red line not to be crossed.

The EU may not give the UK access to the single market or customs union.

Norway has been talking about blocking UK access to the EEA and EFTA: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-trade-association?client=ms-android-motorola

Plus did you know as part of the deal Norway and Switzerland have with the EU they have to abide to EU laws. The UK wants to make its own laws and not be tied to EU laws so this wouldn't work for the UK, one of the things Switzerland and Norway have to agree to is open borders with other EU countries. This will not work for the UK at all.

Bilateral agreements may work for trade depending on what is on offer.

Let's see what TM has to say in her Brexit speech before the end of January 2017.


----------



## Goblin

First off, hope everyone had a good Christmas and New Year.

I still find it hilarious and sad that leavers jump on anything which attempts to validate their position discounting the majority of reports in favor of the few. As for companies and markets. Many knew that large international companies are actually going to be strengthened by Brexit. Not in terms of goods and trade but in power and influence. When has the government reigned in companies from exploiting their customers or actually pushed against company influence? You've seen examples after the referendum, Nissan being one. Power isn't going to the people, it's going to companies and media. It's ultimately going to the rich. Life after Brexit will be more of the same, Rich get richer, poor get poorer. Only now the poor will be hit harder with less accountability to those exploiting them. Interesting to note that consumer credit grew by fastest rate for 10 years supporting the current customer confidence. How sustainable is this?

As for the FTSE100, is it any shock that they are still strong. After all up to 77% of the business is international and nothing to do with the UK. http://citywire.co.uk/money/study-r...ion-of-ftse-revenues-derived-overseas/a716388 Weak sterling means it can be invested in for less money. Of more interest is the FTSE Local UK index which is doing nothing like as well. These are companies heavily dependent on the UK situation.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> ]http://citywire.co.uk/money/study-r...ion-of-ftse-revenues-derived-overseas/a716388 Weak sterling means it can be invested in for less money. Of more interest is the FTSE Local UK index which is doing nothing like as well. These are companies heavily dependent on the UK situation.


Happy New Year to you to.
Your news article is like 3 nearly 4 years out of date (2013). I don't live in the past. Sorry.

The FTSE is our international trading Market like the DAX is for Germany so is very important yes. The FTSE is forecasted to reach as high as 9,000 before the end of the year.

Currencies fluxuate and always will. Even the IMF have admitted that the UK is doing alot better than expected.

Regarding Brexit I am not in denial like some on here and some MPs. It is happening and the date for triggering article 50 is fast approaching (11 or 12 weeks to go).


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Happy New Year to you to.
> Your news article is like 3 nearly 4 years out of date (2013). I don't live in the past. Sorry.


Oh wait, the FTSE suddenly changes totally to support your viewpoint in terms of now the FTSE 100 is really an indication of UK prospects as you want it to. Bad luck.. Let's look at some more recent ones shall we.

https://www.trustnetdirect.com/equity/features/overseas-earnings-prop-up-ftse-100/673795
http://www.businessinsider.de/goldm...s-the-brexit-risks-to-the-uk-2016-7?r=UK&IR=T
http://www.wsj.com/articles/ftses-fortunes-in-spotlight-post-brexit-1467909341

[quote9The FTSE is our international trading Market like the DAX is for Germany so is very important yes. The FTSE is forecasted to reach as high as 9,000 before the end of the year.[/quote]
Wow, really. Doesn't matter if it masks the real problems does it. That of the smaller UK based companies which aren't multinationals.



> Currencies fluxuate and always will. Even the IMF have admitted that the UK is doing alot better than expected.


I agree currencies fluxuate but immediate effect was as predicted. Growth for UK if you look at predictions before the referendum were actually between -2 and 4% if brexit was called. Osbourne and Co. used the worst possible predictions. Still a far cry than the blatant lies of the leave campaign.



> Regarding Brexit I am not in denial like some on here and some MPs. It is happening and the date for triggering article 50 is fast approaching (11 or 12 weeks to go).


I'm sure article 50 will be handed in. Interesting if "democracy" will be allowed to happen and shape the future. I doubt it.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Well the UK wants full control over its borders and TM has made this a red line not to be crossed.
> 
> The EU may not give the UK access to the single market or customs union.
> 
> Norway has been talking about blocking UK access to the EEA and EFTA: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-trade-association?client=ms-android-motorola
> 
> Plus did you know as part of the deal Norway and Switzerland have with the EU they have to abide to EU laws. The UK wants to make its own laws and not be tied to EU laws so this wouldn't work for the UK, one of the things Switzerland and Norway have to agree to is open borders with other EU countries. This will not work for the UK at all.
> 
> Bilateral agreements may work for trade depending on what is on offer.
> 
> Let's see what TM has to say in her Brexit speech before the end of January 2017.


What the UK wants is moot, and is an assumption on your part. What the UK _voted for_ was to leave the EU. Everything else is up for negotiation.

You - and no doubt many others - want full control over borders, but that wasn't on the ballot paper.

The same applies to making our own laws, whatever that actually means, because if we want to trade with the EU at all we will have to follow rules and regulations which govern products, as all trading nations do. Are they laws? If not, what laws are you referring to?

It will indeed be interesting to see what May has to say later this month, and what the reaction of Parliament is.

But the fact of the matter remains that regardless of how many people want to leave the single market, or leave the customs union, or take control of borders, or 'all' laws, what they actually voted for - leaving the EU - doesn't necessarily include any of those things. It probably will include some in whole or in part - I'll be astonished if we end up still with free movement of people - but we'll see.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am going to do what I was originally going to do. That was allow you remainers to carry on complaining and sit back and let you get on with it. It won't make any difference when article 50 is triggered and negotiations start.

Get over yourselves we are leaving the EU you like it or not.


----------



## noushka05

*Farage to sing 'Happy Birthday, Mr President' at Trump inauguration










NIGEL Farage will wear a white dress and heels to serenade Donald Trump at his presidential inauguration, it has been confirmed.*

With many high-profile performers rejecting offers to perform, the former UKIP leader has promised a 'sultry' and 'husky' rendition of _Happy Birthday_.

Farage said: "I'm going to strike just the right balance between mainstream family entertainment and outright eroticism.

"As well as being sensual, I am delicate and vulnerable, like a bird in a gilded cage, and I want to bring that across.

"Paul Nuttall might to a bit on his banjo too, if there's time."

Farage believes that a successful performance could lead to some sort of courtesan role that involves feeding Trump grapes with wearing a leather uniform.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...resident-at-trump-inauguration-20170105119729

:Hilarious


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh
> Yes. Spain will veto everything. WTO. Scotland. NI. Until get Gibraltar.
> Which UK first ruin, then hand in.


To be fair Spains veto is more to be because of independence movements from within itself. They don't want to encourage that by encouraging Scotland to do the same.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> To be fair Spains veto is more to be because of independence movements from within itself. They don't want to encourage that by encouraging Scotland to do the same.


What about Basks and Catalonians, do they have no right to referendum?
Why?


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> What about Basks and Catalonians, do they have no right to referendum?
> Why?


I think you are misunderstanding me 

I am making no claim that they should or shouldn't have independence, I am merely stating that spains actions to prohibit Scotland joining the EU will be linked to the independence claims from within Spain e.g. Catalonia.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> I think you are misunderstanding me
> 
> I am making no claim that they should or shouldn't have independence, I am merely stating that spains actions to prohibit Scotland joining the EU will be linked to the independence claims from within Spain e.g. Catalonia.


They already demanded Gibraltar seconds after referendum...saying no single market access , nothing and frontier closed if UK goes out, unless they get Gibraltar.
That is why May said Spain would be no problem.. Closed frontier al, the end of tourism, gaming industry and financial sector will force majority to abandon their homes and look for jobs elsewhere in UK. In Franco era Gibraltar meant MOD and auxiliaries. So closed frontier was not a death sentence. Now it might be.
Once it collapses it is useless and can be surrendered.
Our prosperous community will be destroyed soon.


----------



## Honeys mum

Brexit: Bank of England admits it was wrong over Brexit economic predictions | UK | News | Daily Express

Bank of England admits 'Michael Fish' moment with dire Brexit predict 

Chief economist of Bank of England admits errors in Brexit forecasting | Business | The Guardian

Not just the daily Express then.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> And mean while this is the real news story on this:
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.po...-after-frexit/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola
> 
> *Marine Le Pen calls for return to ECU-style currency after 'Frexit'*
> 
> PARIS - French far-right leader Marine Le Pen said on Tuesday that Europe should retain a single currency even if France withdraws from the euro zone, nuancing her previous position.
> 
> The National Front chief has long called for "Frexit," a French withdrawal from the European Union. This would happen after a referendum on EU membership if she was elected next May (Le Pen has suggested that she would step down if the French rejected her preferred outcome).
> 
> But this time she said that after a referendum, Europe should retain a common currency, the euro, in parallel to the French franc. It was the first time Le Pen had recognized, however implicitly, that withdrawing from the euro zone unilaterally could bring about currency fluctuations, which the ECU was designed to prevent. Most French voters do not support withdrawal from the European Union, according to polls in 2016.
> 
> "I want a national currency with the euro as a common currency," Le Pen said on BFMTV. "What was the ECU [European Currency Unit]?"
> 
> The shift came as Le Pen launched her presidential campaign and unveiled a series of campaign proposals, including vows to retain France's 35-hour legal working week, end birthright citizenship and rewrite the Constitution to slash the number of MPs.
> 
> On the euro, National Front cadres have repeatedly hinted that Le Pen could water down her position before the election. Brutal withdrawal from the euro zone is particularly unpopular with senior voters who want to protect their assets from currency fluctuations.
> 
> Philippe Murer, Le Pen's economic adviser, told POLITICO that her position on the currency had not changed fundamentally. A return to the ECU, a basket of European currencies that existed before the euro, was one of several options being studied in the event of a withdrawal from the Euro, he said.
> 
> It's a total different story in the Netherlands. Geert Wilders party the PVV is gaining pace at a rapid rate as the elections near in March 2017. His party is the strongest in the Netherlands at the moment and way ahead in the polls. His manifesto is to hold a Nexit referendum as soon as possible to withdraw the Netherlands from the EU. The idea of a referendum is causing is party to get stronger as the Dutch want it. So what implications will this have if the Dutch do get there referendum and leave the EU?


I've got round to reading this now. So Le Pen, by your own link, IS back-peddling. And shes back peddling because she now fears that - _Most French voters __do not support withdrawal__ from the European Union, according to polls in 2016.
_
And after the EU member-states have punished us & made an example of us, as they surely will. Hopefully even more Europeans will see it how foolish it would be to exit the EU.



stockwellcat said:


> So you would believe so called experts who so far predicted doom and gloom and scaremongered people above facts that nothing of what they predicted happened.
> 
> UK Markets are best they have ever been.
> 
> Economy on the way up not down.
> 
> The pound will fluxuate as I previously explained before, currencies always fluxuate.
> 
> Experts predicted after the Brexit vote that:
> The economy would crash. Didn't happen.
> The UK Stock Market would crash. Didn't happen.
> 
> It's amazing they supposedly know everything and what they predicted didn't happen after the referendum vote.
> 
> Regarding my professional GP/Doctor I listen to him and then make my own decisions. I don't always agree with him and don't always follow his advice. I am a 42 year old person and can judge for myself what advice I wish to follow and what I wish to ignore.


Actually the experts were right. The pound has crashed, inflation is up, Nissan threatened to leave, banks are planning to leave, less students, more debt etc. And the only reason it hasn't had more effect on the economy is as @Happy Paws & others have pointed out, we haven't left yet.

Private Eye nails it (again).












stockwellcat said:


> FTSE (UK Markets) hit all time high again yesterday at close of business:
> View attachment 296442
> 
> 
> It is currently trading at 7,201.24 up by 11.50 points (0.16%) as of 10:06am on 5th January 2017.
> 
> Live Stock Exchange data: http://www.londonstockexchange.com/...ndices/summary/summary-indices.html?index=UKX


Perhaps you should read this - https://www.ft.com/content/d0f14dec-d1a8-11e6-b06b-680c49b4b4c0


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> Brexit: Bank of England admits it was wrong over Brexit economic predictions | UK | News | Daily Express
> 
> Bank of England admits 'Michael Fish' moment with dire Brexit predict
> 
> Chief economist of Bank of England admits errors in Brexit forecasting | Business | The Guardian
> 
> Not just the daily Express then.


Well it's all good news this morning, although I know some remainers will moan.
If the Bill has to be passed through Parliament in case the Supreme Court Appeal fails the House of Lords have said they won't Sabotage Brexit, the Lord Speaker has assured Theresa May. Parliament has already given a motion backing with a majority of 461 to 89 so this bill will pass straight through Parliament to the House of Lords:
*Exclusive Peers will not sabotage Brexit, Lord Speaker tells Theresa May ahead of Supreme Court ruling*
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...speaker-tells/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola

*'We WILL NOT sabotage Brexit' House of Lords Speaker gives Theresa May Article 50 boost*
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/7...nt-theresa-may/amp?client=ms-android-motorola
We'll have to wait and see what the Supreme Court Judges say first. Remember the Chief Judge said they aren't ruling on Blocking Brexit they are ruling on if there should be a vote in Parliament to trigger article 50 a bill for which has already been prepared and all that is happening is the Government is awaiting the Judges decision. TM will present the Bill in Parliament within hours if not days after the Judgement has been made at the Supreme Court and the Government lose. If they win then TM has authoritive power to trigger Article 50 without a vote. Either way it doesn't matter as Parliament and House of Lords are behind her if it has to go to a vote.

*Bank of England admits 'Michael Fish' moment with dire Brexit predictions *
Banks admit they have got there predictions completely wrong:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...t-predictions/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola

*The economic consensus was horribly wrong and here are the real reasons Brexit is succeeding*
*Economic Consensus completely wrong:*
*https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/economic-consensus-brexit-succeeding-ashoka-mody-imf-a7509711.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola*


*Brexit leaves UK with 'WORLD LEADING ECONOMY' as Bank of England experts are HUMILIATED*
Brexit will leave the UK the World Leading Economy, Bank of England so called experts left humiliated:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/7...t-michael-fish/amp?client=ms-android-motorola

Now let's see what the negative brigade have to say.

*Let's summarise:*
- Economists - Wrong Predictions
- Bank of England - Predictions wrong
- Economy Growing
- UK Markets Stable and Rising
- Houses of Parliament (MPs) Backing Article 50
- House of Lords (Lords) Backing Article 50
Awaiting results from Supreme Court Appeal.

The Government is on track with triggering article 50 either way by 31st March 2017.


----------



## noushka05

Torn to shreds by The Economist.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Torn to shreds by The Economist.
> 
> View attachment 296521


So that headline has torn apart TM in your opinion. Not in mine. I don't read the Economist.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

stockwellcat said:


> don't read the Economist.


The article is available on line ....and actually rather than 'tear Theresa May to shreds' it is actually a very balanced view on where she stands at the moment. .It contains the quote -

_" In negotiating Brexit, the hardest task for any prime minister since the second world war, she faces a powerful drain on political capital and governmental capacity. Half the country is against the idea and the rest may sour once its drawbacks materialise. Most of the civil servants implementing Brexit think it a mistake. If Britain's next few years will be about avoiding traps, then the wary tenacity of Mrs May could be just what the country needs."_

Whether she 'has a plan' or not or whether the thinking is still 'muddled' .....I for one wouldn't want to be in her shoes ......she faces the petulant opposition from many EU leaders who are determined to make Brexit a failure lest their own countries vote the same, and 'legal challenges' within her own country from those whose business interests lie in Europe and who rather like the lifestyle they have. I think I would be more concerned if she has rushed into things without thinking actually .....

...oh and slight correction Economist ...it was 'under' half the country against the idea which is why we are where we are.

J


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> *Maybe so, but we haven't left yet have we!*


Mores the pity, we should have severed the cord between us and europe the day after the vote if you want my opinion


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Jonescat

Well I live in hope than expectation that some of the comments made across the nation will have an influence on the negotiations. I do hope that while the majority of the papers focus on borders and other headline grabbing topics, that there will be quiet and sensible people negotiating on all the other things that will be affected by the great repeal.

For example: This is the first recommendation from the report by the House of Commons Environmental Audit committee on the future of the natural environment after the EU Referendum:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmenvaud/599/599.pdf
Our recommendations are:
(1) In order to meet its manifesto commitment to "be the first generation to leave the environment in a better state than it found it", the Government must, before triggering Article 50, commit to legislating for a new Environmental Protection Act, ensuring that the UK has an equivalent or better level of environmental protection as in the EU

So that would be in the next couple of months please.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well I hope that welfare rights remain in place for pets and animals around the UK after Brexit happens or there are laws in place that give animals and pets equal rights to what they have at the moment or they become stricter for pets owners in a move to stop back yard breeding, abandonment or abuse to pets etc.

This is only an idea, my idea.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Well I hope that welfare rights remain in place for pets and animals around the UK after Brexit happens or there are laws in place that give animals and pets equal rights to what they have at the moment or they become stricter for pets owners in a move to stop back yard breeding, abandonment or abuse to pets etc.
> 
> This is only an idea, my idea.


On that topic, is anyone aware of any true statistics relating to the amount of animals imported into the UK from Eastern Europe, many of these animals are abused


stockwellcat said:


> Well I hope that welfare rights remain in place for pets and animals around the UK after Brexit happens or there are laws in place that give animals and pets equal rights to what they have at the moment or they become stricter for pets owners in a move to stop back yard breeding, abandonment or abuse to pets etc.
> 
> This is only an idea, my idea.


----------



## rona

Jonescat said:


> Well I live in hope than expectation that some of the comments made across the nation will have an influence on the negotiations. I do hope that while the majority of the papers focus on borders and other headline grabbing topics, that there will be quiet and sensible people negotiating on all the other things that will be affected by the great repeal.
> 
> For example: This is the first recommendation from the report by the House of Commons Environmental Audit committee on the future of the natural environment after the EU Referendum:
> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmenvaud/599/599.pdf
> Our recommendations are:
> (1) In order to meet its manifesto commitment to "be the first generation to leave the environment in a better state than it found it", the Government must, before triggering Article 50, commit to legislating for a new Environmental Protection Act, ensuring that the UK has an equivalent or better level of environmental protection as in the EU
> 
> So that would be in the next couple of months please.


I'm waiting with baited breath for their 25 year plan that they promised for this month. We still have the Bern convention but we need somewhat more commitment to our natural world.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> They already demanded Gibraltar seconds after referendum...saying no single market access , nothing and frontier closed if UK goes out, unless they get Gibraltar.
> That is why May said Spain would be no problem.. Closed frontier al, the end of tourism, gaming industry and financial sector will force majority to abandon their homes and look for jobs elsewhere in UK. In Franco era Gibraltar meant MOD and auxiliaries. So closed frontier was not a death sentence. Now it might be.
> Once it collapses it is useless and can be surrendered.
> Our prosperous community will be destroyed soon.


I accept what your saying but kinda not what I was talking about but OK.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit has not happened. But threats to BoE did.
Brexit will give more power to corporations, not British but any, and the bigger the more power.
Will they care about precious wildlife?
No.

Countryside?. No. They have duty only to shareholders ..

EU was good in keeping dirty money at bay.
Why dirty money is dangerous?
Because if it gets feet under the table it buys political parties...it employs enough people to be more and more untouchable...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit has not happened. But threats to BoE did.
> Brexit will give more power to corporations, not British but any, and the bigger the more power.
> Will they care about precious wildlife?
> No.
> 
> Countryside?. No. They have duty only to shareholders ..
> 
> EU was good in keeping dirty money at bay.
> Why dirty money is dangerous?
> Because if it gets feet under the table it buys political parties...it employs enough people to be more and more untouchable...


Corruption and the EU:
*EXPOSED: How EU has dished out £4.2 BILLION to world's most corrupt regimes in A FORTNIGHT*
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....le-East-Brexit/amp?client=ms-android-motorola

*Corrupt European countries costing EU nearly £800bn a year, says study*
"Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia are the most corrupt countries in the EU, according to a new European Parliament study which reveals that corruption throughout Europe is costing almost £800 billion a year."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-nearly-800bn-a-year-says-study-a6944436.html

*Corruption across EU 'breathtaking' - EU Commission*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387

What has been done about it by the EU. Nothing.

The EU paid £4.2 billion to the world's most corrupt regimes in a fortnight in December 2016.

The real fact is the EU is giving money to some of the world's most corrupt countries and yet some countries in the EU are themselves corrupt with dirty money as you call it.

The EU is corrupt itself.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I am going to do what I was originally going to do. That was allow you remainers to carry on complaining and sit back and let you get on with it. It won't make any difference when article 50 is triggered and negotiations start.
> 
> Get over yourselves we are leaving the EU you like it or not.


If that was aimed at me I would point out that I didn't complain at all, I merely stated facts.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'get over yourselves', but I shall certainly try. I do, however, reserve the right to continue stating facts.

And yes, the UK is indeed leaving the EU, but then that was never in dispute.


----------



## KittenKong

Extract from a post from the Sabre's Brexit thread. How very true....









http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36226&start=3540


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> If that was aimed at me I would point out that I didn't complain at all, I merely stated facts.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by 'get over yourselves', but I shall certainly try. I do, however, reserve the right to continue stating facts.
> 
> And yes, the UK is indeed leaving the EU, but then that was never in dispute.


I will continue stating facts as well.

Today's facts:
1) Bank of England have admitted they got there predictions (previously declared as facts) wrong.
2) The economic Consensus was horribly wrong.
3) The House of Lords will not try to block or Sabotage Brexit.

So if the Supreme Court Appeal fails democracy as @Goblin puts it will happen but not in the way remainers think it will. Both Houses will get to vote and the bill is ready to be passed through both houses.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> The EU is corrupt itself.


And talking of facts ...

I'm leaving comment on the Express article because, well, it's the Express and I can't be bothered to waste time on such a joke publication. Although I would point out that "in A FORTNIGHT" is not terribly shocking when that fortnight happens to be when budgets are allocated. But then the Express can get VERY EXCITED about ABSOLUTELY NOTHING if they can spin it to fit their ludicrous agenda.

But the other articles you cite deal with corruption exposed by the Commission in countries that are part of the EU, including, incidentally, the UK.

How does that exposure make the EU corrupt? And what do you expect it to do when it has no power in the individual countries?


----------



## KittenKong

In 1987 the Tories won the General Election with proposals for the Poll Tax, re-named "Community Charge" in their manifesto. This wasn't brushed under the carpet, the Poll Tax would come if they won that election.

They did of course. It could be argued the Poll Tax was the "Will of the people". This is what they voted for. Absolutely true!

Then look what happened!

History has a habit of repeating itself.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I will continue stating facts as well.
> 
> Today's facts:
> 1) Bank of England have admitted they got there predictions (previously declared as facts) wrong.
> 2) The economic Consensus was horribly wrong.
> 3) The House of Lords will not try to block or Sabotage Brexit.
> 
> So if the Supreme Court Appeal fails democracy as @Goblin puts it will happen but not in the way remainers think it will. Both Houses will get to vote and the bill is ready to be passed through both houses.


Yep, quite right. The economic forecasts of the effect of the vote have proved pessimistic, though the fall in sterling was pretty much spot on.

Let's hope they continue to be so when we actually leave.

I must say you do seem terribly keen still to bash the EU and those who would prefer to have remained within it, given that the vote has concluded and the UK is leaving. Apologies if my impression is wrong.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit will be hard Tory paradise. Do you really think BJ or Nige represents " the people"?.. Yes...only people like themselves.

So they @took control , lying to you, promising what was never to be kept.

52% fell for it. 
Rich will be richer and poor will be poorer...
Poor foxes, poor wildlife, poor countryside...
Pity about tolerance and freedom.
Wish I was wrong.
But then I look at Murdoch, BJ or Nige....


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Yep, quite right. The economic forecasts of the effect of the vote have proved pessimistic, though the fall in sterling was pretty much spot on.
> 
> Let's hope they continue to be so when we actually leave.
> 
> I must say you do seem terribly keen still to bash the EU and those who would prefer to have remained within it, given that the vote has concluded and the UK is leaving. Apologies if my impression is wrong.


I was prepared to leave the conversation. @KittenKong wanted compromise, the comprise was given but he didn't accept it. So yes I am not going to sit back and allow people to put down the UK leaving the EU. I am proud of being British and believe in my country unlike some people.

I was never keen on being in the EU and look forward to the day we leave.

Ok you want me to be silenced, why should I be I have a voice and opinion to like other leave supporters have.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Ok perhaps the Express wasn't a good paper to use. There is a similar story in the Telegraph or is that on your ban list of tabloids to?
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...upt-countries/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola
> 
> The UK may well be one of the corrupt countries within the EU but every country is to an extent. The UK is trying to clamp down on corruption, tax avoidance etc.


Tax avoidance is not a crime. It is legal way of avoiding paying double tax etc...corruption and tax evasion aka not paying taxes are crimes.
Please, do not be one of the idiots who bleet about tax avoidance without any idea...many saving schemes , ISA etc...pension schemes, donations can be called tax avoidance.

You may share your estate between your relatives etc..to avoid death duty.
Many people just do nit realise it is 55% and it can be reduced.
If taxes are fair and straightforward tax avoidance does not exist really.
Tax evasion is criminal. You do not declare your income.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I must say you do seem terribly keen still to bash the EU and those who would prefer to have remained within it, given that the vote has concluded and the UK is leaving. Apologies if my impression is wrong.


Not targeting Stockwellcat personally here but this is typical of hard line Brexiteers like the tabloid press who take pleasure in "bashing" those with an opinion different to them.

They mistakenly believe a narrow leave victory will win over the support of everyone in time. No doubt those that won't conform to their way of thinking will soon be accused of being, "Anti British".

Universal "rejoicing" of Brexit isn't going to happen and is especially a kick in the teeth for Scotland, NI and Gibraltar who overwhelmingly backed remain in the referendum.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Tax avoidance is not a crime. It is legal way of avoiding paying double tax etc...corruption and tax evasion aka not paying taxes are crimes.
> Please, do not be one of the idiots who bleet about tax avoidance without any idea...many saving schemes , ISA etc...pension schemes, donations can be called tax avoidance.
> 
> You may share your estate between your relatives etc..to avoid death duty.
> Many people just do nit realise it is 55% and it can be reduced.
> If taxes are fair and straightforward tax avoidance does not exist really.
> Tax evasion is criminal. You do not declare your income.


Sorry my mistake, typed to fast. Should have been tax evasion not avoidance.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Not targeting Stockwellcat personally here but this is typical of hard line Brexiteers like the tabloid press who take pleasure in "bashing" those with an opinion different to them.
> 
> They mistakenly believe a narrow leave victory will win over the support of everyone in time. No doubt those that won't conform to their way of thinking will soon be accused of being, "Anti British".
> 
> Universal "rejoicing" of Brexit isn't going to happen and is especially a kick in the teeth for Scotland, NI and Gibraltar who overwhelmingly backed remain in the referendum.


You left out London, Manchester and Newcastle from your list who all voted to remain as well. But the UK is leaving as a whole with no separate negotiations for those that voted remain. The UK as a whole is listed as a member of the EU not Scotland, NI, Gibraltar, Manchester, London etc, etc so as a whole it must leave. The UK Government is doing the negotiationing not the English Government as the Scots put it. England doesn't have a devolved Government but instead houses the Government of the UK. Before you say Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar don't get a say, they do. They all voted in the motion vote last year and where part of the 89% that rejected the motion to back the Government and TM on there plans to trigger article 50. They also get plenty of opportunities to question the Government on Brexit at committee meetings, open panels and in the House of Commons in Parliament. TM and David David recently held committee meetings in front of a panel on TV and got grilled over Brexit and there was representation from all parties in the meeting.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> You left out London, Manchester and Newcastle from your list who all voted to remain as well. But the UK is leaving as a whole with no separate negotiations for those that voted remain. The UK as a whole is listed as a member of the EU not Scotland, NI, Gibraltar, Manchester, London etc, etc so as a whole it must leave. The UK Government is doing the negotiationing not the English Government as the Scots put it. England doesn't have a devolved Government but instead houses the Government of the UK. Before you say Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar don't get a say, they do. They all voted in the motion vote last year and where part of the 89% that rejected the motion to back the Government and TM on there plans to trigger article 50. They also get plenty of opportunities to question the Government on Brexit at committee meetings, open panels and in the House of Commons in Parliament. TM and David David recently held committee meetings in front of a panel on TV and got grilled over Brexit and there was representation from all parties in the meeting.


Yes that's true about London, Manchester etc. but the last time I looked Belfast and Edinburgh are not in England.

Cardiff is in Wales but as they voted for Brexit, like most of England they can get on with it.

I fail to understand (not suggesting yourself personally), how many Brexiteers feel a hard Brexit will somehow unite the UK....

It won't.


----------



## cheekyscrip

The


stockwellcat said:


> Sorry my mistake, typed to fast. Should have been tax evasion not avoidance.


But press exploits it! Putting tax avoidance bundled together with criminal activities.
Simply by closing opportunities of not paying extra taxes on your savings ( which are legal and already taxed!) government is rising your tax.
Obviously the rich will take money put of UaK and EU...Caymans are good option and keep it there.

So where are the Tory promises of lowering ridiculous death duty?

Along with lower interest rates it really hit hard those who are working hard and saving for their old age and their families...

Autumn Statement closes lots of tax saving opportunities. Tax saving on pensions income etc...so money taxed already.
How many times one wants to pay tax on their legally earned money?
Seems it is best to keep your savings in the sock under your mattress.
In gold not pounds obviously.
As Brexit generated huge hole in the budget your money has to fill it up.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes that's true about London, Manchester etc. but the last time I looked Belfast and Edinburgh are not in England.
> 
> Cardiff is in Wales but as they voted for Brexit, like most of England they can get on with it.
> 
> I fail to understand (not suggesting yourself personally), how many Brexiteers feel a hard Brexit will somehow unite the UK....
> 
> It won't.


Regarding the Brexit negotiations from what I understand is this, we present what we want to the EU representatives and they decide if they are willing to allow us these requests. There are four principles (http://www.europeanpolicy.org/en/european-policies/single-market.html) that they require the UK to abide to to have access to the single market with the EU and they are all to do with freedom of movement or people, goods and services. The UK will fail on this because TM has made it a red line that the UK has control over its own borders and wants to end free movement to the UK. So this leaves the UK in a position to hard Brexit because a soft Brexit would be off the table so to speak. A soft Brexit also means the UK would not really be leaving the EU any way. Immigration was one of the things that was highlighted during the referendum and identified as being a problem afterwards and reasons why people voted for leave. Because the UK wants to stop free movement to the UK from the EU the EU will not allow us to have access to the single market as it is against one of there four founding principles.

Other countries within the EU are having second thoughts about free movement as well including and not limited to Netherlands, Germany, France, Baltic Countries etc. The UK is the first country to vote in a referendum to leave the EU, who knows others may follow. Some EU leaders are coming forward wanting to silence European people by disallowing anymore referendums but to date this has been ignored. The outgoing EU President Martin Schulz has admitted that Brussels is treading water and the EU on the brink as they can't cope because of the historic Brexit vote and the rise of populist movements across Europe and EU leaders are not selling the European dream back in there own countries:
http://www.theunituk.org.uk/2017/01...er-and-cannot-cope-with-historic-brexit-vote/

https://newsexplored.co.uk/world/eu...er-and-cannot-cope-with-historic-brexit-vote/

Everything will take time to change, it won't suddenly happen on the day we leave the EU two years or so from Spring this year. Regarding uniting the UK, it has as I said before not been united before the referendum was even thought of.

*Interpretations*:
*Soft Brexit* = Keep one foot in the EU and one foot out of the EU which the UK has been doing for 40 odd years.
*Hard Brexit* = Leave the EU and Single Market. Read above why we'd be leaving the Single Market.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> The
> But press exploits it! Putting tax avoidance bundled together with criminal activities.
> Simply by closing opportunities of not paying extra taxes on your savings ( which are legal and already taxed!) government is rising your tax.
> Obviously the rich will take money put of UaK and EU...Caymans are good option and keep it there.
> 
> So where are the Tory promises of lowering ridiculous death duty?
> 
> Along with lower interest rates it really hit hard those who are working hard and saving for their old age and their families...
> 
> Autumn Statement closes lots of tax saving opportunities. Tax saving on pensions income etc...so money taxed already.
> How many times one wants to pay tax on their legally earned money?
> Seems it is best to keep your savings in the sock under your mattress.
> In gold not pounds obviously.
> As Brexit generated huge hole in the budget your money has to fill it up.


It has been revealed you don't have to go to the Cayman Islands to benefit from a tax haven:
- Luxembourg
- Netherlands
- England (for none UK citizens)
- Germany
- Ireland
- Jersey

Here is an extensive list:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/wealth-management/121515/top-10-european-tax-havens.asp


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> *Yes that's true about London, Manchester etc. but the last time I looked Belfast and Edinburgh are not in England.*


But Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England are part of the UK. The UK as a whole voted to leave with no margine result put on the outcome, it was a case of whoever wins, wins. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not independent countries they are a union of countries Governed by the Government of the United Kingdom which is also listed (UK that is) as a whole as an EU member.

I know you won't acknowledge this but Scotland is not being forced out of the EU against its will. MPs from Scotland agreed to hold the referendum when the bill was transitioning through Parliament and Lords. They voted on it like other MPs did from Northern Ireland, Wales and England did and agreed what would happen upon the outcome of the referendum. They agreed to the referendums terms by way of voting in Parliament. They are part of the UK and therefore took part in designing the rules surrounding the referendum. They knew the consequences of a vote to leave. Yes I know they voted to stay but overall vote leave won. So now all parts of the United Kingdom will leave the EU. So to say they are being forced out of the EU is ludicrous as they as a country where not independent and are part of the UK. The UK is leaving the EU as a whole including the areas of the UK that have devolved Governments as they are part of the UK.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Immigration was one of the things that was highlighted during the referendum and identified as being a problem afterwards and reasons why people voted for leave.


Correct because people have no real understanding of "free movement" since the spin placed on it by the media was so one sided. It pushed the scapegoating and fear rather than the reality. It still is. Abolishing free movement does not equal allowing the government to control immigrant numbers.



> Other countries within the EU are having second thoughts about free movement as well including and not limited to Netherlands, Germany, France, Baltic Countries etc. The UK is the first country to vote in a referendum to leave the EU, who knows others may follow.


More reason that the EU will not allow the UK to pick and choose and will limit what can be negotiated. As for change in free movement in Germany, France etc, may well happen but then the principle will remain. It will change but then that is once again due to the democratic nature of the EU.

As for other countries leaving the EU. I know you want it to happen:




Interesting the rejection against popularism in places like Austria isn't it. France, Le Pen is scrambling and reducing her anti EU rhetoric as she knows she will lose otherwise. When it comes to it sensible people will wait until Brexit runs it's course, not simply jump on the idea of "control to the people" which is a lie. Brexit isn't giving control to the people. It's the opposite.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding the Brexit negotiations from what I understand is this, we present what we want to the EU representatives and they decide if they are willing to allow us these requests. There are four principles (http://www.europeanpolicy.org/en/european-policies/single-market.html) that they require the UK to abide to to have access to the single market with the EU and they are all to do with freedom of movement or people, goods and services. The UK will fail on this because TM has made it a red line that the UK has control over its own borders and wants to end free movement to the UK. So this leaves the UK in a position to hard Brexit because a soft Brexit would be off the table so to speak. A soft Brexit also means the UK would not really be leaving the EU any way. Immigration was one of the things that was highlighted during the referendum and identified as being a problem afterwards and reasons why people voted for leave. Because the UK wants to stop free movement to the UK from the EU the EU will not allow us to have access to the single market as it is against one of there four founding principles.
> 
> Other countries within the EU are having second thoughts about free movement as well including and not limited to Netherlands, Germany, France, Baltic Countries etc. The UK is the first country to vote in a referendum to leave the EU, who knows others may follow. Some EU leaders are coming forward wanting to silence European people by disallowing anymore referendums but to date this has been ignored. The outgoing EU President Martin Schulz has admitted that Brussels is treading water and the EU on the brink as they can't cope because of the historic Brexit vote and the rise of populist movements across Europe and EU leaders are not selling the European dream back in there own countries:
> http://www.theunituk.org.uk/2017/01...er-and-cannot-cope-with-historic-brexit-vote/
> 
> https://newsexplored.co.uk/world/eu...er-and-cannot-cope-with-historic-brexit-vote/
> 
> Everything will take time to change, it won't suddenly happen on the day we leave the EU two years or so from Spring this year. Regarding uniting the UK, it has as I said before not been united before the referendum was even thought of.
> 
> *Interpretations*:
> *Soft Brexit* = Keep one foot in the EU and one foot out of the EU which the UK has been doing for 40 odd years.
> *Hard Brexit* = Leave the EU and Single Market. Read above why we'd be leaving the Single Market.


Sorry; me again!

Any Brexit will very likely include restrictions on free movement of people, though there is a wide range of possibilities and these will no doubt be considered during the negotiations.

A soft Brexit would involve migration controls but would also seek to maintain, as far as possible, the benefits of our current membership of the single market and the customs union. Again, there is a range of possibilities to be discussed.

A hard Brexit would see the UK with no membership of the single market or the customs union, and presumably trading according to WTO rules (if the Brexiters are ok with following rules set by a supranational organisation).

Day 1 after we actually leave will be interesting, because with a Hard Brexit it _will_ "suddenly happen". The Hard option doesn't allow for an interim period, so we'd better hope that businesses who want to continue trading with the EU are notified of the likely situation with sufficient time to adjust their strategies, procedures, computer systems and prepare for the increased paperwork that will be necessary. That period needs to be several months, of course.

And those businesses won't be able to simply switch customers to other countries not only because the changes required to do so will be much greater than those required to continue their EU trade, but because the UK won't be allowed to start negotiating trade deals with those other countries until we have left the EU.

So despite all the jolly good economic news at the moment, there are interesting times ahead if the government adopts your preferred option.

Or I could just be scaremongering. You tell me.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> So if the Supreme Court Appeal fails democracy as @Goblin puts it will happen but not in the way remainers think it will. Both Houses will get to vote and the bill is ready to be passed through both houses.


No, Supreme Court Appeal if it fails supports democracy. *A single vote result is not democracy*. Democracy is ongoing and allows people to change opinion over time. It does not allow those in charge to roll over the constitutional process whenever they like. People do change their minds:
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/politics/sunderland-echo-poll-shows-u-turn-on-brexit-1-8282851

Every 4 or so years democracy holds the government accountable for their actions. Leaving the UK there is no accountability and we will never be able to reverse it whilst maintaining the current influence and advantages we have.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> It has been revealed you don't have to go to the Cayman Islands to benefit from a tax haven:
> - Luxembourg
> - Netherlands
> - England (for none UK citizens)
> - Germany
> - Ireland
> - Jersey
> 
> Here is an extensive list:
> http://www.investopedia.com/articles/wealth-management/121515/top-10-european-tax-havens.asp


But if you want to really do it....Caymans....others have just less unfair tax regime than UK.
Germany is known for fairly straightforward systems...so are Netherlands....
Check death duty there...tax haven or fairer systems?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> No, Supreme Court Appeal if it fails supports democracy. *A single vote result is not democracy*. Democracy is ongoing and allows people to change opinion over time. It does not allow those in charge to roll over the constitutional process whenever they like. People do change their minds:
> http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/politics/sunderland-echo-poll-shows-u-turn-on-brexit-1-8282851
> 
> Every 4 or so years democracy holds the government accountable for their actions. Leaving the UK there is no accountability and we will never be able to reverse it whilst maintaining the current influence and advantages we have.


Interesting newspaper article as the readers who left comments had nothing nice to say about the article claiming that the writers of the article are out to try and change people's minds. The comments also left by readers actually portray the opposite of what the article is saying. No one seems to have changed there minds who read the paper and left comments.



> 01/01/2017 9:27 AM CET ozzyal One question that needs to be asked is why anyone wants to stay in the EU .Nothing the EU does is in the publics interest ,it's all in the interests of those who clamour for more and more cheap labour and more and more power .The new world ordier is being exposed as time goes by and the more people find out the more the likes of the Obamas and Clintons as well as the dictators of the EU will be reviled by the people .Look at the list of EU disaster ,member countries failed and bankrupt ,immigration free for all dragging wages down ,rules and regulations that nobody wants and have no real benefit other than making the dictators feel good ,the flooding of Europe with muslims from everywhere and the trouble that will cause ,the EU demands money yet fails to publish it's accounts .Trade is the only thing they claim is a great success but we had this with the EEC the EU was not needed .THE EU IS OUR WORST NIGHTMARE .
> 21/12/2016 8:11 AM CET LabourNeverDeliver http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/74...u-comres-cnn-poll-article-50-brussels-june-23
> 17/12/2016 10:24 AM CET Makem dwarf What about the thousands of local people you didn't ask? Contrived poll as usual to put doubt into peoples minds.
> 16/12/2016 5:49 PM CET Honest John Stupid bogg's posts. "Figures to be released tomorrow will show the UK has slipped into a triple dip recession." Oh no it didn't. Ukip will wipe out the Tories in the elections." Oh no they didn't. "We will now see mass defections of Tories to Ukip." Oh no we didn't. "There are no motorways in our area." Oh yes there are. What an embarrassment bogg is. Sad really.
> 16/12/2016 5:44 PM CET Honest John If only the pathetic UK hating Europhiles would accept the democratic vote. Poor dears getting excited over a non representative newspaper survey. Very, very sad really.
> 16/12/2016 5:17 PM CET Petebogg lol - dishonest john, what a funny little man you are, as John Mellow once said - 'sad really' 1Reply
> 16/12/2016 3:33 PM CET Honest John Too close to home for you motorway bogg?
> 16/12/2016 3:31 PM CET LabourNeverDeliver Looks like Honest John has scored a bull's eye with triple dip bogg.
> 16/12/2016 11:30 AM CET Petebogg The mind of dishonest John is a weird one. Apparently he now 'exposes men who wear and wet woman's panties' - eh? How and more importantly why say let alone do that - well I suppose we all have to get our jollies from somewhere! Perhaps all those years of being a negaTory does this to people - a cry for help if ever I saw one. 14/12/2016 8:41 PM CET Honest John Motorway bogg claims that exposing men who wear and wet their panties displays a hatred of women??????? This can only happen in bogg world. You know the one where there is no motorways in our area. Like is it said you cant's fix stupid. 2Replies
> 13/12/2016 11:59 PM CET Marky17 Turkeys that voted for Christmas! 1Reply
> 13/12/2016 11:09 PM CET Passerbuy It could set an unsteady general election problem if they are allowed to vote again for this farce. The country voted LEAVE!!!!!! 1Reply
> 13/12/2016 2:41 PM CET Awkward Harry We have encouraging economic news almost every day. Many of the big multi-nationals are investing anew in Britain - six months AFTER the Referendum. What absolute FOOLS the Remainiacs now look. 1Reply
> 13/12/2016 2:16 PM CET CaptainCharisma Labour luvvie Petebogg has stated on a number of occasions that "You can't fix stupid" Quite right Pete, you are living proof of that and as your other moniker (John Mellow) would say. Sad really 2Replies
> 13/12/2016 10:27 AM CET Honest John Ah peter bogg raises his head again with another inane post of no merit. This from someone who did not know we have a motorway in the area. Hilarious but sad. 2Replies [ Load More Comments ] More from News Sunderland star has his say on penalty spat between Jermain Defoe and Fabio Borini Sunderland school told by Ofsted inspectors that it must improve Sunderland AFC news round-up: Cats linked with free agent, Italian giants 'interested' in Larsson How Adnan Januzaj's commitment to the Sunderland cause surprised Match of the Day pundit
> 
> Read more at: http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/...hows-u-turn-on-brexit-1-8282851#comments-area


I fail to see from these comments anyone in Sunderland has changed there minds as you claim.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Correct because people have no real understanding of "free movement" since the spin placed on it by the media was so one sided. It pushed the scapegoating and fear rather than the reality. It still is. Abolishing free movement does not equal allowing the government to control immigrant numbers.


The end of free movement will more likely prevent UK citizens from leaving than immigrants coming in...

This is one thing many leave voters wouldn't accept, believing nothing will change as regards to free movement of UK citizens within the EU as of present, yet "control" those coming in to the UK.

They'll be in for a short sharp shock I can tell you!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Interesting newspaper article as the readers who left comments had nothing nice to say about the article claiming that the writers of the article are out to try and change people's minds. The comments also left by readers actually portray the opposite of what the article is saying. No one seems to have changed there minds who read the paper and left comments.


So 60% for leaving changes to 60% staying in isn't people changing their minds? You obviously only read what you want to. Yes, it also shows some people who haven't changed their minds. Called balanced reporting, something national papers should do one in a while. Interesting that apart from McDonalds which is under a tax evasion probe in the EU moving to the UK the reason is equivalent to I voted that way so there.

Of course the user comments on the article are all vocal in their pro leave stance. Can't have people actually listen to reality rather than spin can we. There's a phrase which matches it, vocal minority.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So 60% for leaving changes to 60% staying in isn't people changing their minds? You obviously only read what you want to. Yes, it also shows some people who haven't changed their minds. Called balanced reporting, something national papers should do one in a while. Interesting that apart from McDonalds which is under a tax evasion probe in the EU moving to the UK the reason is equivalent to I voted that way so there.
> 
> Of course the user comments on the article are all vocal in their pro leave stance. Can't have people actually listen to reality rather than spin can we. There's a phrase which matches it, vocal minority.


The poll doesn't actually portray what actual people's opinions are. Sky do these polls all the time, they are called data polls, they subtract the information from sources they want to get it from. Nobody is actually surveyed or asked any questions the results come from annoynamous sources.

A poll is a poll haven't you learnt they mean naff in the UK. According to the polls the UK would have voted to remain in the EU but instead we voted out. The polls where wrong, it was data subtracted by the press. Like in the last General election in the UK Conservatives didn't stand a chance of winning according to the polls but did.

Polls don't actually prove anything.

The artical was written in this instance to give a false impression to the general public to make it look like people are changing there minds, and they aren't in the real world. It's a fantasy that remainers hope will happen (leavers change there mind I mean).


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The poll doesn't actually portray what actual people's opinions are. Sky do these polls all the time, they are called data polls, they subtract the information from sources they want to get it from. Nobody is actually surveyed or asked any questions the results come from annoynamous sources.


Wow, the same polling used twice with different results. You really are digging for excuses aren't you.



> The artical was written in this instance to give a false impression to the general public to make it look like people are changing there minds, and they aren't in the real world. It's a fantasy that remainers hope will happen (leavers change there mind I mean).


No it's amongst many instances which show some people have changed their minds. You can stick your fingers in your ears and shut your eyes as much as you like. Doesn't make it fantasy just as you want it to.



> A poll is a poll haven't you learnt they mean naff in the UK. ... Polls don't actually prove anything.


Strange how you say that considering the referendum was in reality only an opinion poll yet apparantly its result is to determine the future for the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Marine le Penn has not backed down like remainers hoped she had. She has been quite the opposite and vocal as well.

*http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ht-hands-says/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola*

*Brussels punishing Britain over Brexit will play right into my hands says Marine Le Pen*

Imposing a punitive divorce settlement on Britain in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations would be proof the Europe can only advance by "threats, intimidation and blackmail", the leader of France's National Front has warned.

Marine Le Pen, the hard-Right leader who is expected to reach the second round run-off in the French presidential election this May, said that a punitive deal with Britain would bolster the position of populist forces across Europe, not deter them.

"The way the EU has reacted to Brexit has put paid to the few in Europe who still believe that there is an ounce of democracy in this structure, that is the EU.

"Europe would be showing its true face, as it already has done so in Greece and tried to do with Britain," she said when asked if Brussels taking a hard line with the UK would play into the hands of her party.









A journalist holds a placard with portraits of Russian President Vladimir Putin, French National Front leader Marine Le Pen, and U.S. President-Elect Donald Trump (L-R) ahead of an annual news conference by Russia's President Vladimir PutinCREDIT: TASS
*"This EU doesn't move forward by consent because it knows its people no longer adhere to this political structure, it advances via threats, intimidation and blackmail."*

European federalists in Brussels, Paris and Berlin have argued that Britain will need to be left conspicuously worse off after Brexit in order to clearly demonstrate to other EU members states the perils of leaving the club.

Michel Barnier, the EU's chief Brexit negotiator gave repeated warnings at his opening press conference last year that Brexit would demonstrate that "it is much better to show solidarity than stand alone".

Meanwhile Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council said in a letter to leaders last year that a Brexit deal must leave everyone in "no doubt" about the benefits of EU Membership.

*However independent analysts have warned of the risk that an EU punishment strategy - designed to faced down the rising forces of populism that now threaten Europe's political establishment - might have precisely the opposite effect.

"An excessively punitive attitude in the Brexit negotiations could backfire by providing extra ammunition to the various anti-establishment parties across Europe," said Vincenzo Scarpetta, a senior policy analyst with Open Europe.*

*"They would be able to claim that the EU is an undemocratic club where a sovereign nation gets punished for merely exercising a right enshrined in the Treaties."*

Ms Le Pen's remarks to a meeting of the Anglo-American Press Association in Paris appeared to confirm that risk - which is also advanced in private by British officials and negotiators warning Brussels not to overplay it's hand.

"It hardly makes the EU look like a club you'd want to be a member in if they try and shoot the first member who decides to leave of their own accord," said one senior British official, rejecting Franco-German promises that the UK would be worse off after Brexit.

Norbert Hofer, former presidential candidate of the Austrian far right Freedom Pary with President of French far-right party Front National Marine Le PenCREDIT: AFP
If elected, Ms Le Pen said she would give the EU six months to yield to a list of demands that would enable France to take back control of its borders and economy, including embarking in "intelligent protectionism" currently banned under EU state aid laws.

If her demands are not met, Ms Le Pen says she will then advise the French people that it is time for France to leave Europe.

Polls show that Ms Le Pen remains very unlikely to win in Maywhen opponents from Left and Right are expected to unite to defeat her.

However she remains bullish, arguing that the National Front is riding a powerful new force in Western politics, as demonstrated by Brexit, the election of Donald Trump and host of populist election victories in Italy, Austria and Germany.

"Brexit marks the great return of the nation. It is the notion that the nation wants to be independent, sovereign that only the nation can decide about its destiny, its future. It is this call for freedom that the British people launched by voting for Brexit," she said.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Maybe French will not believe that their terrorists came from EU?

French have more common sense than you think.

Germans know the trap of populism. They had Hitler. Democratically elected pathological liar.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Marine le Penn has not backed down like remainers hoped she had. She has been quite the opposite and vocal as well.


Ooo Big words, I can do that to, doesn't mean it's true.

Punishing Britain hasn't anything to do with it does it. Upholding the basic principles of the EU does. That includes protections of things like democracy, human rights, workers rights etc.

You also have the fact that negotiations will not have an effect on the elections, this speech is simply a ploy to place the idea in people's minds, not reality. Like most of popularist spin it relies on people ignoring facts.

And yes, Marine le Penn has backed down, you are simply ignoring what she has said about things like EU currency and moving away from a hard brexit like strategy.



> "Brexit marks the great return of the nation. It is the notion that the nation wants to be independent, sovereign that only the nation can decide about its destiny, its future. It is this call for freedom that the British people launched by voting for Brexit," she said.


Shame thats a load of codswollap isn't it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Ooo Big words, I can do that to, doesn't mean it's true.
> 
> Punishing Britain hasn't anything to do with it does it. Upholding the basic principles of the EU does. That includes protections of things like democracy, human rights, workers rights etc.
> 
> You also have the fact that negotiations will not have an effect on the elections, this speech is simply a ploy to place the idea in people's minds, not reality. Like most of popularist spin it relies on people ignoring facts.
> 
> And yes, Marine le Penn has backed down, you are simply ignoring what she has said about things like EU currency and moving away from a hard brexit like strategy.
> 
> 
> Shame thats a load of codswollap isn't it.


The UK has a right to use the treaties enshrined within the EU to leave it is written in there treaties that counties have a right to leave if it so wishes to. You're a very bitter person and that bitterness comes across that you are panicking because the inevitable is going to happen.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> Marine le Penn has not backed down like remainers hoped she had. She has been quite the opposite and vocal as well.
> 
> *http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ht-hands-says/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola*
> 
> *Brussels punishing Britain over Brexit will play right into my hands says Marine Le Pen*
> 
> Imposing a punitive divorce settlement on Britain in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations would be proof the Europe can only advance by "threats, intimidation and blackmail", the leader of France's National Front has warned.
> 
> Marine Le Pen, the hard-Right leader who is expected to reach the second round run-off in the French presidential election this May, said that a punitive deal with Britain would bolster the position of populist forces across Europe, not deter them.
> 
> "The way the EU has reacted to Brexit has put paid to the few in Europe who still believe that there is an ounce of democracy in this structure, that is the EU.
> 
> "Europe would be showing its true face, as it already has done so in Greece and tried to do with Britain," she said when asked if Brussels taking a hard line with the UK would play into the hands of her party.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A journalist holds a placard with portraits of Russian President Vladimir Putin, French National Front leader Marine Le Pen, and U.S. President-Elect Donald Trump (L-R) ahead of an annual news conference by Russia's President Vladimir PutinCREDIT: TASS
> *"This EU doesn't move forward by consent because it knows its people no longer adhere to this political structure, it advances via threats, intimidation and blackmail."*
> 
> European federalists in Brussels, Paris and Berlin have argued that Britain will need to be left conspicuously worse off after Brexit in order to clearly demonstrate to other EU members states the perils of leaving the club.
> 
> Michel Barnier, the EU's chief Brexit negotiator gave repeated warnings at his opening press conference last year that Brexit would demonstrate that "it is much better to show solidarity than stand alone".
> 
> Meanwhile Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council said in a letter to leaders last year that a Brexit deal must leave everyone in "no doubt" about the benefits of EU Membership.
> 
> *However independent analysts have warned of the risk that an EU punishment strategy - designed to faced down the rising forces of populism that now threaten Europe's political establishment - might have precisely the opposite effect.
> 
> "An excessively punitive attitude in the Brexit negotiations could backfire by providing extra ammunition to the various anti-establishment parties across Europe," said Vincenzo Scarpetta, a senior policy analyst with Open Europe.*
> 
> *"They would be able to claim that the EU is an undemocratic club where a sovereign nation gets punished for merely exercising a right enshrined in the Treaties."*
> 
> Ms Le Pen's remarks to a meeting of the Anglo-American Press Association in Paris appeared to confirm that risk - which is also advanced in private by British officials and negotiators warning Brussels not to overplay it's hand.
> 
> "It hardly makes the EU look like a club you'd want to be a member in if they try and shoot the first member who decides to leave of their own accord," said one senior British official, rejecting Franco-German promises that the UK would be worse off after Brexit.
> 
> Norbert Hofer, former presidential candidate of the Austrian far right Freedom Pary with President of French far-right party Front National Marine Le PenCREDIT: AFP
> If elected, Ms Le Pen said she would give the EU six months to yield to a list of demands that would enable France to take back control of its borders and economy, including embarking in "intelligent protectionism" currently banned under EU state aid laws.
> 
> If her demands are not met, Ms Le Pen says she will then advise the French people that it is time for France to leave Europe.
> 
> Polls show that Ms Le Pen remains very unlikely to win in Maywhen opponents from Left and Right are expected to unite to defeat her.
> 
> However she remains bullish, arguing that the National Front is riding a powerful new force in Western politics, as demonstrated by Brexit, the election of Donald Trump and host of populist election victories in Italy, Austria and Germany.
> 
> "Brexit marks the great return of the nation. It is the notion that the nation wants to be independent, sovereign that only the nation can decide about its destiny, its future. It is this call for freedom that the British people launched by voting for Brexit," she said.


The more I see of her, the more I like. She'd get my vote. I so hope she wins and we can look forward to this year being another epic year like 2016 was.

Fingers will be hovering over the clos du mesnil on that election night.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Michael Fish jokes that his forecasts are better than the Bank of England's dire Brexit predictions*
share








Michael Fish, the former BBC weatherman































Laura Hughes
6 JANUARY 2017 • 6:39 PM

Michael Fish has joked that his weather forecasts are more accurate than the Bank of England's pessimistic Brexit predictions.

On Thursday Andy Haldane, the Bank of England's chief economist, compared the bank's dire warnings of a downturn to Mr Fish's infamous weather forecast in October 1987.

During the forecast Mr Fish dismissed warnings that a hurricane was "on the way", but noted there could be high winds in Spain.

_In response to Mr Haldane's reference, Mr Fish yesterday wrote on Twitter: "My forecast (better than the Bank of England's) is now online."
_
He added: "I reckon that Andrew Haldane, Chief Economist at the Bank of England owes me a gold bar or two."

Mr Fish told The Telegraph: "He's used my name in vain the cheeky devil, I'd say he owes me a good lunch, or a couple of bars of gold. My phone has been red hot since.

"I've actually left a message with the Bank of England press office asking if he'd kindly get in touch with me. It's all lighthearted and I'm not angry, but I thought it would be an opportunity to have a quick drink."

At an event at the Institute for Government in London on Thursday, Mr Haldane said there was a "disconnect" between political warnings about Brexit and the "remarkably placid" state of the markets. *He added that the worst predictions may turn out to be "just scare stories".*

Mr Haldane made the concession as new figures suggested Britain was the fastest growing of all advanced economies last year after the services sector defied gloomy forecasts to hit a 17-month high.

"Let's go back to a different crisis, the crisis not in economic forecasting but weather forecasting", he said. "Michael Fish getting up: 'Someone's called me, there's no hurricane coming but it will be windy in Spain.'

"It is very similar to the sort of reports central banks issued pre-crisis, that there is no hurricane coming but it might be very windy in sub-prime."

*When it was put to him that the Bank of England had forecast a "hurricane" after the Brexit vote which had not materialised,* Mr Haldane replied: "It's true, and again fair cop."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/michael-fish-jokes-forecasts-better-bank-englands-dire-brexit/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The UK has a right to use the treaties enshrined within the EU to leave it is written in there treaties that counties have a right to leave if it so wishes to. You're a very bitter person and that bitterness comes across that you are panicking because the inevitable is going to happen.


I'm not bitter, I'm concerned about the future looking at the facts.

Yes remain campaign exaggerated the problems of Brexit, I do not think anyone has denied that. The downsides are still there however with people already losing jobs, division and tensions being pushed into the open, reseach potentials lost etc. The idea that scapegoating and spin is more important than facts and experts. On the leave side you had blatant lies about benefits which will simply not happen. It's amazing how all you can do is point out how the situation isn't as bad as it could be considering we haven't even left yet. After over 6 months even the cabinet has no unified direction and are still arguing about the way forward. You still haven't come up with benefits of leaving which will actually realistically occur to counter what will and has been negative.

Interesting the wording you highlighted


> ...He added that the* worst predictions* may turn out to be "just scare stories"...


Plenty of negative predictions proving true.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I'm not bitter, I'm concerned about the future looking at the facts. Yes remain campaign exaggerated the problems of Brexit, I do not think anyone has denied that. The downsides are still there however with people already losing jobs, division and tensions being pushed openly. On the leave side you had blatant lies about benefits which will simply not happen. It's amazing how all you can do is point out how the situation isn't as bad as it could be considering we haven't even left yet. After over 6months even the cabinet has no unified direction. You still haven't come up with benefits of leaving which will actually realistically occur to counter what will be lost.


The divisions where there long before the Referendum was ever thought about. The UK is a divided nation. People lose there jobs everyday across the world but since the leave vote people have focused on this and taken every opportunity to blame the leave vote for there misfortunes when in actual fact these companies where not doing as well as they made out to be doing. One typical example Lloyd's Bank said before the Referendum they were going to lay off staff and cut down the number of branches they have, waited until after the Referendum and blamed the Referendum results for having to do this, they had already advised the public and there staff they where going to do this so them blaming the Referendum result was not justified.

In my area of the UK there has been no decrease in jobs available or people losing there jobs in fact there are more jobs available. There has been no mass movement of people leaving either in fact the opposite has been happening.

Regarding no confirmation from the leaders. Well if Cameron planned for a plan b in case of a leave vote then we wouldn't be waiting for the Government to clean his mess up and having to put together such a plan from scratch (yes this is Cameron's fault for not putting a plan b in place his arrogance got in the way). Putting plans in place from scratch do not happen overnight and alot of the problems that have been happening are due to people's impatience especially from the remain side. Give the Government a chance to put the plan together you can't just magic such a plan from thin air. TM is going to make a major Speach on Brexit later this month, be patient.

Regarding the benefits of leaving the EU, these will all be revealed in time. Alot of the doom and gloom being spouted by remainers at the moment will more than likely not materialise and is just scare tactics.

Sit back and wait, the answers are coming.

BTW it was revealed that the Department For Leaving The EU are working through every possible scenario and outcome from the pending negotiations with the EU, this takes time you know.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> The downsides are still there however with people already losing jobs,


Oddly, there seems to be a huge increase in job opportunities in my area and one of my clients who worked for someone else in a global business, has now (after brexit) gone on his own. I don't think he's lacking confidence in our prospects


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Oddly, there seems to be a huge increase in job opportunities in my area and one of my clients who worked for someone else in a global business, has now (after brexit) gone on his own. I don't think he's lacking confidence in our prospects


So how many jobs are new because of Brexit? We know jobs have been lost directly as a result. How have his prospects improved directly due to Brexit or would the opportunity exist regardless?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding no confirmation from the leaders. Well if Cameron planned for a plan b in case of a leave vote then we wouldn't be waiting for the Government to clean his mess up and having to put together such a plan from scratch (yes this is Cameron's fault for not putting a plan b in place his arrogance got in the way). Putting plans in place from scratch do not happen overnight and alot of the problems that have been happening are due to people's impatience especially from the remain side. Give the Government a chance to put the plan together you can't just magic such a plan from thin air. TM is going to make a major Speach on Brexit later this month, be patient.


You cannot have it both ways, we simply leave on a hard brexit isn't it? That's what people voted for, only it isn't is it, it's a complete mix of ideas. Just like we have a complete mix of ideas from cabinet.



> Regarding the benefits of leaving the EU, these will all be revealed in time. Alot of the doom and gloom being spouted by remainers at the moment will more than likely not materialise and is just scare tactics.


Shouldn't people know the benefits and be able to support the decision to vote leave?



> BTW it was revealed that the Department For Leaving The EU are working through every possible scenario and outcome from the pending negotiations with the EU, this takes time you know.


Oh I know spin takes time to create. We've had so much of it.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> So how many jobs are new because of Brexit? We know jobs have been lost directly as a result. How have his prospects improved directly due to Brexit or would the opportunity exist regardless?


The fact is they are still there despite Brexit. This is what is happening around me rather than what I hear from people who just read papers which would have you believe that it's all doom and gloom

Checked just one agency and the exact location of my town, not a big town, there have been 178 new jobs within the last 2 weeks. When I was looking last year there would be something like 10-20


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## cheekyscrip

The new jobs: Customs. Who pays for it? Taxpayers. You. Unnecessary before. More red tape. Who pays for it: You 
New terminal without freedom of movement.
At whose expense? Yours, plus destroyed countryside and historic churches etc...
Any more jobs in NHS?
Education?
Lets see though how prices of oil pushed by weak pound will affect us...production costs etc...


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## noushka05

Some refuse to accept the NHS is being demolished & privatised by this government, no doubt they'll claim the NHS is performing better than ever in their area too. Yet in the real world its in its death throes & having to be propped up by the Red Cross things are so bad ! Brexit will be the final nail in the coffin. We need foreign workers to keep it going. At least, when its gone, I will still be able to look myself in the mirror & know I listened to the experts & did all I could (in my very limited capacity) to save our precious NHS.

Tweeted by -

*Dr Alex Gates*‏@*dr_alex_gates* 
This is a real A&E Consultant. Their message, bleak & heartfelt, tells the story across England. SHAME on government for its wilful deafness

*







*


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## noushka05




----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You cannot have it both ways, we simply leave on a hard brexit isn't it? That's what people voted for, only it isn't is it, it's a complete mix of ideas. Just like we have a complete mix of ideas from cabinet.
> 
> Shouldn't people know the benefits and be able to support the decision to vote leave?
> 
> Oh I know spin takes time to create. We've had so much of it.


You and spin. You read enough of it, that's where your doom and gloom comes from.

Yes a hard Brexit is favourable so we have a clean break from the EU. I am hoping that the Government are going for this preferred method but I can't tell them what to do can I.

Look aren't you worried at the moment about the country you currently call home as your dearly beloved Merkel might not be in power at the end of the year? I know you was born in the UK but the fact is Germany (you are a UK citizen by birth rite only you do not live in the UK or put up with what is going on in the UK on a daily basis, you do not contribute to the UK way of life via paying National Insurance or UK taxes, work or live here) is now your home as you have adopted there as your home. I am not saying you can't have a say in Brexit but you do over react alot. Plus as you keep saying if you have lived in a European country for more than 5 years you are covered under EU laws so what is going to happen with Brexit doesn't affect you. You admittedly said previously that you had been in Germany 15+ years and that's why you couldn't vote in the referendum which annoyed you alot if I remember rightly, why that is is beyond me as you have adopted another countries cultures and traditions and call that country home, you don't pay a penny to the UK tax system or any national insurance. If the UK dispises you that much @Goblin it's easy get a German passport as you have lived there long enough and renounce your British Citizenship: https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality/overview

You are a headache.

I voted out like many other UK citizens did and was entitled to my vote and it was a democratic vote as the bill was voted through Parliament and Houses of Lords by MPs and Lords representing all parties from all parts of the UK including England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar. They voted on the terms of the referendum and on the term that stated about in the result of a leave vote. They knew what was going to happen in case of a leave vote. The results of the referendum where accepted by the Government and later the majority of MPs and now the Lord's. The UK is heading to leaving the EU which is our right to do (as a Sovereign Union of Countries) so under EU laws enshrined in EU treaties.

If you don't like it tough as it is happening, here is the form you fill in https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality/overview plenty of other people are throwing hissy fits and applying to renounce there citizenship. You keep banging on about spin, you keep spouting enough of it yourself but your spin is doom and gloom exactly what Cameron and Osbourne where doing. So called experts have backed down as some have admitted they where wrong, the Bank of England have backed down and admitted they got there predictions (what remainers classed as fact) wrong, economists have admitted they have got there doom and gloom forecasts (remainers called this fact as well) wrong.

You really think everyone who voted out are stupid? Of course we aren't we are very clever people who are taking our country on a journey of independence after 40 odd years of being tied to a club that is greedy, bullish, can't agree with each other etc, etc.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> You and spin. You read enough of it, that's where your doom and gloom comes from.
> 
> Yes a hard Brexit is favourable so we have a clean break from the EU. I am hoping that the Government are going for this preferred method but I can't tell them what to do can I.
> 
> Look aren't you worried at the moment about the country you currently call home as your dearly beloved Merkel might not be in power at the end of the year? I know you was born in the UK but the fact is Germany (you are a UK citizen by birth rite only you do not live in the UK or put up with what is going on in the UK on a daily basis, you do not contribute to the UK way of life via paying National Insurance or UK taxes, work or live here) is now your home as you have adopted there as your home. I am not saying you can't have a say in Brexit but you do over react alot. Plus as you keep saying if you have lived in a European country for more than 5 years you are covered under EU laws so what is going to happen with Brexit doesn't affect you. You admittedly said previously that you had been in Germany 15+ years and that's why you couldn't vote in the referendum which annoyed you alot if I remember rightly, why that is is beyond me as you have adopted another countries cultures and traditions and call that country home, you don't pay a penny to the UK tax system or any national insurance. If the UK dispises you that much @Goblin it's easy get a German passport as you have lived there long enough and renounce your British Citizenship: https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality/overview
> 
> You are a headache.


This doom & gloom you keep hearing from us remoaners is called - reality. People like you don't care what the consequences of brexit are so long as we leave the EU. You don't want to hear anything negative, you prefer willful ignorance. Goblin has every right to voice their concerns, just as I have every right to voice mine about that Trump imbecile over in America.


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## rona

Newcastle upon Tyne.......... 68 jobs
Edinburgh...........................68
Liverpool...........................135
Swansea..........................41
Hatfield........................1,352
Dudley...........................201
Carnarvon.........................14

This is just small selection of new jobs from one employment agency, they are from senior managers to cleaners, It's seem that Wales is still struggling for jobs, much the same as they have for decades, Mmmm and they voted out!!

These are what is actually there, not what's made up in someones head


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> This doom & gloom you keep hearing from us remoaners is called - reality. People like you don't care what the consequences of brexit are so long as we leave the EU. You don't want to hear anything negative, you prefer willful ignorance. Goblin has every right to voice their concerns, just as I have every right to voice mine about that Trump imbecile over in America.


If you read what I said instead of reading what you want out of what I said, you would have noticed I said this: I am not saying you can't have a say in Brexit but you do over react alot.

Yes I like many other leave voters want a clean break from the EU or as it has been nick named a hard Brexit. It may not be down to the UK though because TM is saying that the UK wants full control of its borders back which will in turn stop free movement of people and with free movement of people being one of the foundamental principles of the EU we will not have access to the single market. I did put a link up in one of my other replies on this thread.

Yes you remainers call spouting doom and gloom facts or whatever but it's funny that the Bank of England declared there facts and are now saying they where predictions and they got them wrong, so did economists and so called experts. I have said this before I listen to the health expert (GP) but if I take on board what he says is another question. He has been wrong alot as well.

The reality of everything is companies aren't moving on mass out of the UK, there are more jobs available, there is no mass movements of people flocking to the border to leave the UK either, companies that are laying off people in preplanned restructuring wrongfully blame the referendum results because they decided to wait until after the referendum to do there restructuring and lastly individuals are blaming there misfortunes wrongfully on the referendum results. They are facts.


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## stockwellcat.

.


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## Goblin

rona said:


> Newcastle upon Tyne.......... 68 jobs
> Edinburgh...........................68
> Liverpool...........................135
> Swansea..........................41
> Hatfield........................1,352
> Dudley...........................201
> Carnarvon.........................14
> 
> This is just small selection of new jobs from one employment agency, they are from senior managers to cleaners, It's seem that Wales is still struggling for jobs, much the same as they have for decades, Mmmm and they voted out!!
> 
> These are what is actually there, not what's made up in someones head


So.. Despite Brexit, not because of Brexit.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Yes a hard Brexit is favourable so we have a clean break from the EU. I am hoping that the Government are going for this preferred method but I can't tell them what to do can I.


So why is Brexit favourable? What advantages are there when compared to staying in the EU? Well you haven't actually been able to come up with any for leaving other than wishful thinking to start with.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So why is Brexit favourable? What advantages are there when compared to staying in the EU? Well you haven't actually been able to come up with any for leaving other than wishful thinking to start with.


*Why is Brexit favourable?* The UK will be able to map out it's own destiny and future.
*What advantages are there when compared to staying in the EU? *

The UK will be able to trade with whom we wish instead of waiting for the other 27 countries to make up there minds. If CETA is anything to go by which looked from an outsider's point of view the EU had severe problems trying to agree on things and then all the states in Brussels had to agree (I would have walked away if I was the Canadian PM). It was a laughable shambles that almost fell through.
The UK will be able to strike trade deals quicker with other countries outside of the EU. Liam Fox apparently has a list of 50 countries willing to trade with the UK outside of the EU, but of course we can't do anything until we leave the bloc but it didn't say anywhere the UK wasn't allowed to ask other countries.
The UK will be able to set its own fishing qoutas and not be restricted to the EU fishing qoutas.
The UK can become part of the Commonwealth which it was a proud member of before signing up to the EC that later became the EEC and then the EU.
Trade will be attracted to the UK as it will be cheaper to operate from the UK.
Tourism has increased in the UK since the referendum result and will continue to increase.
House prices will come down and make it more affordable for people to buy a home at the moment homes are hard to buy.

Banks leaving the UK to move to the EU may well be a good thing for the UK as it will make the banking system in the UK more balanced and easier to manage. An IMF researcher quoted this the other day in one of the financial papers.

What is wrong with deciding who comes into your country by ending free movement? Other countries from outside the EU do it.


----------



## Honeys mum

Brexit news - ex IMF expert says UK economy will prosper outside the European Union | Politics | News | Daily Express


----------



## Bisbow

I am just going to say this and then not bother with this thread anymore, it is tedious and repetitive I know this will cause a furore but so be it, it is my poinoin

In my opinion remainers are scared
Scared they may have to think for themselves instead of letting some faceless wonder in Brussels do it for them
Scared they may have to work a bit harder to get the same perks

They will not have the same faceless wonder telling them what is dangerous, what not to eat, not to jump off cliffs etc

Common sense has been eroded, the fighting spirit has been killed off

WE are so used to the nannying that we fear we will not survive without it

I am not racist or stupid but we can't keep taking in people, the country is not big enough, it is not made of elastic to stretch it out

That's my view and I don't care what others say or think of me, I will not be reading any more guff


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> I am just going to say this and then not bother with this thread anymore, it is tedious and repetitive I know this will cause a furore but so be it, it is my poinoin
> 
> In my opinion remainers are scared
> Scared they may have to think for themselves instead of letting some faceless wonder in Brussels do it for them
> Scared they may have to work a bit harder to get the same perks
> 
> They will not have the same faceless wonder telling them what is dangerous, what not to eat, not to jump off cliffs etc
> 
> Common sense has been eroded, the fighting spirit has been killed off
> 
> WE are so used to the nannying that we fear we will not survive without it
> 
> I am not racist or stupid but we can't keep taking in people, the country is not big enough, it is not made of elastic to stretch it out
> 
> That's my view and I don't care what others say or think of me, I will not be reading any more guff


Much of these "softy" policies such as Health and Safety was introduced by UK governments.

As for telling us not to eat it was Edwina Currie who warned about salmonella in eggs, not someone from the EU. Much talk about minimum pricing for alcohol originates in the UK, not the EU. Why is alcohol much cheaper in many EU countries than in the UK? I actually agree with you on that but the "Nanny State" originated in the UK.

The tabloids blame the EU for everything.

The only significant EU policy was the Working Time Directive which is not only sensible it enables more jobs to be created, eg: Two employees working a 37 1/2 hr week instead of one on an 80hr week.

Did you know this is only a guide and not an insistence? People still work overtime you know but are not forced to. Common sense I think.

I fail to understand why you are accusing remainers this way. I can think for myself thank you and didn't need a pathetic remain and leave campaign to decide my vote.

I happen to enjoy the benefits of EU membership personally speaking. I currently have the luxury of deciding for myself thank you.

It's the gutter press and Nationalists who tell you what to think. I, for one, deeply resent my future being chosen for me against my wishes.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Much of these "softy" policies such as Health and Safety was introduced by UK governments. The only significant EU policy was the Working Time Directive which is not only sensible it enables more jobs to be created, eg: Two employees working a 37 1/2 hr week instead of one on an 80hr week.
> 
> Did you know this is only a guide and not an insistence? People still work overtime you know but are not forced to. Common sense I think.
> 
> *You accuse remainers of being soft and scared of hard work and to think for
> Perhaps the tabloid papers think for you. It certainly sounds like it.*


Yourself @noushka05 and @Goblin spout off enough news coverage yourselves when it suits yourselves and you publish on here what you want to believe backs up your cause. So to say the tabloids think for the leave voters is rubbish. Try yourselves believing in tabloids.

I think for myself thank you very much.

Edited as @KittenKong changed his reply. Just to let you know I am sick of remainers telling me I am wrong because I voted leave. I can think for myself and judge for myself what I think is right. I feel sorry for you and @noushka05 and @Goblin who can't accept what is going to happen. I voted because I was entitled to and I voted the way I always said I would vote. I am happy this has happened in my life time (the referendum I mean and that the UK will leave the EU).

Do I have any regrets for voting the way I did? No.
Would I change my mind if there was a second referendum? No
Do I have to answer to anyone who voted remain and explain myself for voting to leave the EU? No
Do I appreciate being told that I was wrong by remain voters for voting the way I voted? No
Should I be silent and let remain voters put leave voters down? No
Do I think I was in the wrong for voting to leave the EU? No
Do I feel the remainers are now arguing for the sake of arguing? Yes
Do I feel that the UK will survive outside of the EU? Yes
Do I feel I have had enough going around in circles with remainers arguing on this thread as it isn't going anywhere? Yes
Did anyone influence my vote during the referendum? No not even the press or campaigners.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> So.. Despite Brexit, not because of Brexit.


Your point?

I'm just countering all the doom and gloom merchants. Yes, some jobs in some sectors will be lost because of Brexit, some would have been lost anyway. Some jobs will increase due to Brexit, some would have increased anyway.
Until it's all done and dusted, none of us will know, and even then I bet some will argue black is white


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I, for one, deeply resent my future being chosen for me against my wishes.


As have I for the last few decades



KittenKong said:


> I can think for myself thank you and didn't need a pathetic remain and leave campaign to decide my vote.


As did I


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...g-tories-if-may-takes-uk-out-of-single-market


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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...g-tories-if-may-takes-uk-out-of-single-market
> 
> View attachment 296601


Won't be much of a loss. Only £1.2 million. There's donors that pay more than this. Small fry in a bigger picture. The press trying to make something out of nothing.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Won't be much of a loss. Only £1.2 million. There's donors that pay more than this. Small fry in a bigger picture. The press trying to make something out of nothing.


Seeing how much the party gets in donations you're probably right!


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am really surprised that Sturgeon hasn't been mentioned lately:

*Soft Brexit would take second Scottish independence referendum off the table, Nicola Sturgeon says*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-nicola-sturgeon-second-referendum-brexit-soft-a7512981.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola

Then she got blasted by the Scottish Tories:
*'For pity's sake let this go!' Scottish Tory leader blasts Sturgeon over independence bid*
http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...icola-Sturgeon/amp?client=ms-android-motorola
SCOTTISH Conservative leader Ruth Davidson today told Nicola Sturgeon to "get back to the day job" instead of "picking endless fights" over independence

Addressing the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham, the MSP launched a furious tirade against the SNP's continuing bid to hold a second Scottish independence referendum.

Ms Davidson, the opposition leader to Ms Sturgeon in the Holyrood parliament, urged voters not to "believe a word" of what the First Minister told them.

She said: "You see Nicola Sturgeon on the TV most weeks telling you how Scotland is up in arms, again, threatening the break-up of Britain.

"Asserting independence is closer now than ever before, declaring separation is somehow inevitable.

"Today, speaking to people here from across the UK, I want to make this clear. Don't believe a word of it.

"There is nothing inevitable about the break-up of this great nation and I for one will fight it every inch and so will thousands with me."

In the wake of the historic Brexit vote, the nationalist First Minister has insisted a second independence referendum for Scotland is "back on the table".

*But Ms Davidson told Ms Sturgeon she is "not speaking for the majority".*

*She said: "The majority of us want to move on.*

*"The majority have no wish to return to the divisions of the past - we want to seize the opportunities of the future.*

"Most Scots have had enough and they are telling her - for pity's sake, First Minister, let this go."


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Yourself @noushka05 and @Goblin spout off enough news coverage yourselves when it suits yourselves and you publish on here what you want to believe backs up your cause. So to say the tabloids think for the leave voters is rubbish. Try yourselves believing in tabloids.
> 
> I think for myself thank you very much.
> 
> Edited as @KittenKong changed his reply. Just to let you know I am sick of remainers telling me I am wrong because I voted leave. I can think for myself and judge for myself what I think is right. I feel sorry for you and @noushka05 and @Goblin who can't accept what is going to happen. I voted because I was entitled to and I voted the way I always said I would vote. I am happy this has happened in my life time (the referendum I mean and that the UK will leave the EU).
> 
> Do I have any regrets for voting the way I did? No.
> Would I change my mind if there was a second referendum? No
> Do I have to answer to anyone who voted remain and explain myself for voting to leave the EU? No
> Do I appreciate being told that I was wrong by remain voters for voting the way I voted? No
> Should I be silent and let remain voters put leave voters down? No
> Do I think I was in the wrong for voting to leave the EU? No
> Do I feel the remainers are now arguing for the sake of arguing? Yes
> Do I feel that the UK will survive outside of the EU? Yes
> Do I feel I have had enough going around in circles with remainers arguing on this thread as it isn't going anywhere? Yes
> Did anyone influence my vote during the referendum? No not even the press or campaigners.


Yes I perfectly understand where you are coming from and accept many voted the way they did regardless the press and leave/remain campaign influence, just as I did.

It just doesn't help being constantly told the likes of, "We won, You lost. Get over it". This will do nothing to unite the deeply divided UK.

As for Scotland, Gibraltar and NI would it not be better to allow the elected leaders of these countries to negotiate their own terms such as continued access to the single market while England and Wales who of course won the leave vote gets on with their hard Brexit?

NI didn't vote for a hard border between them and the Republic which will be inevitable to keep EU citizens out of UK "territory" for instance.

The rise of the far right not seen since the 1930s is a genuine concern, even for Prince Charles.

Not everyone who voted leave is a from the far right of course. Dennis Skinner MP for example. Corbyn himself dates from a period of Labour left, "Anti Marketeers".

Labour, already finished in Scotland like the Tories before them do themselves no favours in telling the Scottish people it's more important to stay in the UK than in the EU!

I mentioned the Poll Tax before as an example of being the "Will of the People". It was then look what happened when it was implemented!

Hearing so many believe in the thriving of old traditional "British industries", more money for the NHS, freedom of movement being maintained for UK citizens across the EU and other unbelievable promises and believing immigrants will all be "sent home" and be given their jobs and houses will be left extremely disappointed.

Allowing China to build their nuclear power station is not evidence of "Getting the Country Back". The Brexit vote would've been a great opportunity for the government to give it to a UK consortium instead.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes I perfectly understand where you are coming from and accept many voted the way they did regardless the press and leave/remain campaign influence, just as I did.
> 
> It just doesn't help being constantly told the likes of, "We won, You lost. Get over it". This will do nothing to unite the deeply divided UK.
> 
> As for Scotland, Gibraltar and NI would it not be better to allow the elected leaders of these countries to negotiate their own terms such as continued access to the single market while England and Wales who of course won the leave vote gets on with their hard Brexit?
> 
> NI didn't vote for a hard border between them and the Republic which will be inevitable to keep EU citizens out of UK "territory" for instance.
> 
> The rise of the far right not seen since the 1930s is a genuine concern, even for Prince Charles.
> 
> Not everyone who voted leave is a from the far right of course. Dennis Skinner MP for example. Corbyn himself dates from a period of Labour left, "Anti Marketeers".
> 
> Labour, already finished in Scotland like the Tories before them do themselves no favours in telling the Scottish people it's more important to stay in the UK than in the EU!
> 
> I mentioned the Poll Tax before as an example of being the "Will of the People". It was then look what happened when it was implemented!
> 
> Hearing so many believe in the thriving of old traditional "British industries", more money for the NHS, freedom of movement being maintained for UK citizens across the EU and other unbelievable promises and believing immigrants will all be "sent home" and be given their jobs and houses will be left extremely disappointed.
> 
> Allowing China to build their nuclear power station is not evidence of "Getting the Country Back". The Brexit vote would've been a great opportunity for the government to give it to a UK consortium instead.


I apologise if I came across as constantly telling remainers to "Move on" etc but the UK is moving on to its future roll in the world not just in the EU. The roll it plays with the EU is yet to be written and no one knows what that will be. I understand there are genuine concerns about leaving the EU, but alot of the scare tactics used by the remain camp have been proven to just be that, scare tactics, as according to Cameron and Osbourne the leave vote would have unleashed economic doom and gloom and in fact the opposite is happening. I know some not so positive things have happened like the fall in the pound sterling but that may not be a negative thing as the pound was over forecasted in previous years which the IMF recently admitted.

With regards to NI, Scotland and Gibraltar they are not independent countries and belong to the Union of Countries called the United Kingdom. MPs from all areas of the UK voted the referendum bill through and where fully aware of what would happen if the results where to be leave it was written within the terms of the referendum. Scotland had an independence referendum in 2014, a recent poll indicated there is no appetite from the Scottish public for a repeat referendum and the poll also suggests that Scottish people would vote against independence from the UK. The Orkney Iisles have said they want independence from Scotland because they made there voices clear in 2014 and the UK because they are unsure of the leave vote. Northern Ireland have no desire to be independent from the UK and no desire to rejoin the republic of Ireland this has recently been discussed with both sides of the border. There will be no return to a hard border because we have a recipical agreement with the Republic of Ireland that has been in existence long before the EC, EEC and EU ever existed (1920 something) and this isn't going to be affected by the Brexit negotiations as it is separate from this like our bilateral agreement with France. If Gibraltar have there independence you know and I know Spain will claim the rock back without hesitation, Gibraltar is UK territory and hopefully will be still after the Brexit negotiations.

I don't think the Government has plans to restart industrialization of the past, they are looking forward to the UK's future place in the world.

Yes the rise of the far right in Europe is worrying I agree but have you thought people in European countries probably feel they aren't being listened to by there countries leaders and the Far Right is speaking the talk they want to hear right now. Populism is happening because the governments of European countries aren't listening to the people of there countries.

The NHS is a problem but you need to admit it is particially there own doing for not listening to advisers that advised them in the past and due to people excessively using services when advised not to like over the last month. Have a cold or flu stay at home don't go to A&E seems to have fallen on deaf ears. The problems in the NHS aren't entirely the Governments fault.

The will of the people was given during the Referendum and must be respected even though a few feel the need to disrupt the will of the people the rest of the nation has accepted the vote results despite the way they voted and want to move on.

Nobody knows what is going to happen next, we need to just get on with it and do our best in achieving what is best for the UK in the negotiations with the EU. According to Liam Fox he has 50 countries lined up willing to trade with the UK after we Brexit so to speak (after the EU negotiations) so we won't be left high and dry so to speak.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I am really surprised that Sturgeon hasn't been mentioned lately:
> 
> *Soft Brexit would take second Scottish independence referendum off the table, Nicola Sturgeon says*
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-nicola-sturgeon-second-referendum-brexit-soft-a7512981.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola
> 
> Then she got blasted by the Scottish Tories:
> *'For pity's sake let this go!' Scottish Tory leader blasts Sturgeon over independence bid*
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...icola-Sturgeon/amp?client=ms-android-motorola
> SCOTTISH Conservative leader Ruth Davidson today told Nicola Sturgeon to "get back to the day job" instead of "picking endless fights" over independence
> 
> Addressing the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham, the MSP launched a furious tirade against the SNP's continuing bid to hold a second Scottish independence referendum.
> 
> Ms Davidson, the opposition leader to Ms Sturgeon in the Holyrood parliament, urged voters not to "believe a word" of what the First Minister told them.
> 
> She said: "You see Nicola Sturgeon on the TV most weeks telling you how Scotland is up in arms, again, threatening the break-up of Britain.
> 
> "Asserting independence is closer now than ever before, declaring separation is somehow inevitable.
> 
> "Today, speaking to people here from across the UK, I want to make this clear. Don't believe a word of it.
> 
> "There is nothing inevitable about the break-up of this great nation and I for one will fight it every inch and so will thousands with me."
> 
> In the wake of the historic Brexit vote, the nationalist First Minister has insisted a second independence referendum for Scotland is "back on the table".
> 
> *But Ms Davidson told Ms Sturgeon she is "not speaking for the majority".*
> 
> *She said: "The majority of us want to move on.*
> 
> *"The majority have no wish to return to the divisions of the past - we want to seize the opportunities of the future.*
> 
> "Most Scots have had enough and they are telling her - for pity's sake, First Minister, let this go."


Ruth Davison and other opposition parties including Labour are entitled to their opinion.

The SNP manifesto mentioned a possible second independence referendum in the event of being taken out of the EU against their will.
Ms Sturgeon is acting on that. I think she's being very fair to give the UK government a chance.

The problem is, central UK government are not showing respect for the will of the Scottish people by insisting on negotiations on their behalf. Nicola Sturgeon, not Theresa May is the elected first minister of Scotland after all.

Why should NS let this go? She has my full support in this personally speaking.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Ruth Davison and other opposition parties including Labour are entitled to their opinion.
> 
> The SNP manifesto mentioned a possible second independence referendum in the event of being taken out of the EU against their will.
> Ms Sturgeon is acting on that. I think she's being very fair to give the UK government a chance.
> 
> The problem is, central UK government are not showing respect for the will of the Scottish people by insisting on negotiations on their behalf. Nicola Sturgeon, not Theresa May is the elected first minister of Scotland after all.
> 
> Why should NS let this go? She has my full support in this personally speaking.


Sturgeon may well be first minister of Scotland but the Government still rule Scotland and the PM out ranks the first minister. Scotland are a devolved state not an independent country. Being a devolved state means the Government of the UK still have power over defence, laws of the land, benefits, and matters concerning the whole of the UK like the referendums to leave the EU. The Scottish government do not have any power over the referendum result on leaving the EU because they are not an independent country.

Scottish MPs/MSP voted on matters surrounding the referendum bill and voted on its transition through Parliament and the House of Lords. The MPs or MSPs where fully aware of what would happen in the event of a leave vote and voted on the rules surrounding the referendum. They where fully informed of what would happen so they can protest as much as they want.



> *The Act was subsequently passed by 544-53 votes on its second reading on 9 June 2015*, a ratio of six to one in the Commons [4] *and was approved by the House of Lords *on 14 December 2015,[5] *and given Royal Assent on 17 December 2015*.


*



The result of the referendum was to be a single majority vote of the United Kingdom and Gibraltar with no super majorities, double majorities of the constituent countries or any minimum turnout threshold required for the vote to pass.

Click to expand...

*


> *In the event of a "Leave" vote, the government would decide whether, when, and under what circumstances, the UK would invoke Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union to begin a two-year process of negotiations for Britain to leave the EU.*


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Your point?
> 
> I'm just countering all the doom and gloom merchants. Yes, some jobs in some sectors will be lost because of Brexit, some would have been lost anyway. Some jobs will increase due to Brexit, some would have increased anyway.


So, no doom and gloom, you still haven't given benefits for Brexit. All you come up with is campaign fear was wrong even though some of it has already come true and we haven't left yet.



stockwellcat said:


> *Why is Brexit favourable?* The UK will be able to map out it's own destiny and future.
> 
> The UK will be able to strike trade deals quicker with other countries outside of the EU. Liam Fox apparently has a list of 50 countries willing to trade with the UK outside of the EU, but of course we can't do anything until we leave the bloc but it didn't say anywhere the UK wasn't allowed to ask other countries.
> The UK will be able to set its own fishing qoutas and not be restricted to the EU fishing qoutas.
> The UK can become part of the Commonwealth which it was a proud member of before signing up to the EC that later became the EEC and then the EU.
> Trade will be attracted to the UK as it will be cheaper to operate from the UK.
> Tourism has increased in the UK since the referendum result and will continue to increase.
> House prices will come down and make it more affordable for people to buy a home at the moment homes are hard to buy.



Failing totally to understand what the single market is, what trade deals are and how they are negotiated. Liam fox has 50 countries willing to trade with the UK, most of whom we already trade with, some of which under advantageous trade agreements with the EU. We are unlikely to get similar deals with them having worst one replacing them. Have to accept more Indian immigrants being an obvious example which goes against why people say they want to leave the EU.

As for fishing, quotas sound good don't they if you haven't looked at where most UK fishing is done.. in other EU countries fishing grounds. Oops. Or maybe the EU gives out quotas and UK governments allocates it. In one case to a scandanavian factory ship.

Still members of the commonwealth or do you mean a new EU like structure you push for abandoning? We already know India wants more free movement for any trade deal.
Trade is an interesting one isn't it. Why will it be cheaper to operate from the UK? Any trade deal we'll make will have different regulations needing to be adhered to. That means additional, not less costs. Many firms, Nissan for example are here only because we were part of the EU. They are already holding meetings behind closed doors with the government. So much for taking back control. You also again miss out on what the single market is and it's benefits.
Oh wait, currency is devalued so we get more tourists. Yep simple really but as you always point out.. currencies fluctuate.
UK house prices are stupid but that's nothing to do with the EU. Wonder how many chinese investors have brought housing since the reduction of sterling.
So what about workers rights
So what about the environment
So what about research



> Banks leaving the UK to move to the EU may well be a good thing for the UK as it will make the banking system in the UK more balanced and easier to manage.


I don't believe banks will move, simply some of their business in regards to passporting.



> What is wrong with deciding who comes into your country by ending free movement? Other countries from outside the EU do it.


What is so great about it when we don't control who comes into the country from outside the EU anyway?



Bisbow said:


> Scared they may have to think for themselves instead of letting some faceless wonder in Brussels do it for them


Yep I'm scared. Scared that you've given more power to a government who have proven through sucessive governments (not simply conservatives) that they have no clue what they are doing. Most of the scare stories of the leave campaign and on this thread are not to do with the EU but our own government. Government accountability has now gone out the window. The idea that a GE is accountabilty is laughable as what sticks in people's minds at a GE is only what the current situation is. All these stupid rules and regulations from Brussels when most of which people complain about aren't from Brussels in the first place. You've thrown so much away on promises which can never be kept. That's the reason May has taken so long to hand in article 50 and why people like Farage are happy to go play in America rather than make things work.



KittenKong said:


> Why should NS let this go? She has my full support in this personally speaking.


I do not agree, I think the phrase stronger together is correct and that's exactly the same for scotland as part of the UK and UK as part of the EU. Do find it hypocritcal of those who support leaving the EU "to take back control" when they say Scotland should do what those in the UK voted for though. So if the population of Scotland was the same as the UK what would the referendum result have been? Think 62% to remain would have meant an overall loss. So the larger dictates to the smaller.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So, no doom and gloom, you still haven't given benefits for Brexit. All you come up with is campaign fear was wrong even though some of it has already come true and we haven't left yet.
> 
> 
> Failing totally to understand what the single market is, what trade deals are and how they are negotiated. Liam fox has 50 countries willing to trade with the UK, most of whom we already trade with, some of which under advantageous trade agreements with the EU. We are unlikely to get similar deals with them having worst one replacing them. Have to accept more Indian immigrants being an obvious example which goes against why people say they want to leave the EU.
> 
> As for fishing, quotas sound good don't they if you haven't looked at where most UK fishing is done.. in other EU countries fishing grounds. Oops. Or maybe the EU gives out quotas and UK governments allocates it. In one case to a scandanavian factory ship.
> 
> Still members of the commonwealth or do you mean a new EU like structure you push for abandoning? We already know India wants more free movement for any trade deal.
> Trade is an interesting one isn't it. Why will it be cheaper to operate from the UK? Any trade deal we'll make will have different regulations needing to be adhered to. That means additional, not less costs. Many firms, Nissan for example are here only because we were part of the EU. They are already holding meetings behind closed doors with the government. So much for taking back control. You also again miss out on what the single market is and it's benefits.
> Oh wait, currency is devalued so we get more tourists. Yep simple really but as you always point out.. currencies fluctuate.
> UK house prices are stupid but that's nothing to do with the EU. Wonder how many chinese investors have brought housing since the reduction of sterling.
> So what about workers rights
> So what about the environment
> So what about research
> 
> I don't believe banks will move, simply some of their business in regards to passporting.
> 
> What is so great about it when we don't control who comes into the country from outside the EU anyway?
> 
> Yep I'm scared. Scared that you've given more power to a government who have proven through sucessive governments (not simply conservatives) that they have no clue what they are doing. Most of the scare stories of the leave campaign and on this thread are not to do with the EU but our own government. Government accountability has now gone out the window. The idea that a GE is accountabilty is laughable as what sticks in people's minds at a GE is only what the current situation is. All these stupid rules and regulations from Brussels when most of which people complain about aren't from Brussels in the first place. You've thrown so much away on promises which can never be kept. That's the reason May has taken so long to hand in article 50 and why people like Farage are happy to go play in America rather than make things work.
> 
> I do not agree, I think the phrase stronger together is correct and that's exactly the same for scotland as part of the UK and UK as part of the EU.


I hate to correct you on Commonwealth countries but here is a list of commonwealth countries 2016 which does not include the EU as the EU are not part of the Commonwealth countries who are doing financially better than the EU by the way (these are facts):

Botswana
Cameroon
Ghana
Kenya
Lesotho
Malawi
Mauritius
Mozambique
Namibia
Nigeria
Rwanda
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
South Africa
Swaziland
Uganda
United Republic of Tanzania
Zambia
Bangladesh
Brunei Darussalam
India
Malaysia
Pakistan
Singapore
Sri Lanka
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas, The
Barbados
Belize
Canada
Dominica
Grenada
Guyana
Jamaica
Saint Lucia
St Kitts and Nevis
St Vincent and The Grenadines
Trinidad and Tobago
Cyprus
Malta
United Kingdom
Australia
Fiji
Kiribati
Nauru
New Zealand
Papua New Guinea
Samoa
Solomon Islands
Tonga
Tuvalu
Vanuatu


----------



## Goblin

Yep and you notice the United Kingdom is in that list already. Never said the EU was in it, only if you want to bring in the commonwealth as an alternative to the EU it goes against why you want out of the EU in the first place.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So, no doom and gloom, you still haven't given benefits for Brexit. All you come up with is campaign fear was wrong even though some of it has already come true and we haven't left yet.
> 
> 
> Failing totally to understand what the single market is, what trade deals are and how they are negotiated. Liam fox has 50 countries willing to trade with the UK, most of whom we already trade with, some of which under advantageous trade agreements with the EU. We are unlikely to get similar deals with them having worst one replacing them. Have to accept more Indian immigrants being an obvious example which goes against why people say they want to leave the EU.
> 
> As for fishing, quotas sound good don't they if you haven't looked at where most UK fishing is done.. in other EU countries fishing grounds. Oops. Or maybe the EU gives out quotas and UK governments allocates it. In one case to a scandanavian factory ship.
> 
> Still members of the commonwealth or do you mean a new EU like structure you push for abandoning? We already know India wants more free movement for any trade deal.
> Trade is an interesting one isn't it. Why will it be cheaper to operate from the UK? Any trade deal we'll make will have different regulations needing to be adhered to. That means additional, not less costs. Many firms, Nissan for example are here only because we were part of the EU. They are already holding meetings behind closed doors with the government. So much for taking back control. You also again miss out on what the single market is and it's benefits.
> Oh wait, currency is devalued so we get more tourists. Yep simple really but as you always point out.. currencies fluctuate.
> UK house prices are stupid but that's nothing to do with the EU. Wonder how many chinese investors have brought housing since the reduction of sterling.
> So what about workers rights
> So what about the environment
> So what about research
> 
> I don't believe banks will move, simply some of their business in regards to passporting.
> 
> What is so great about it when we don't control who comes into the country from outside the EU anyway?
> 
> Yep I'm scared. Scared that you've given more power to a government who have proven through sucessive governments (not simply conservatives) that they have no clue what they are doing. Most of the scare stories of the leave campaign and on this thread are not to do with the EU but our own government. Government accountability has now gone out the window. The idea that a GE is accountabilty is laughable as what sticks in people's minds at a GE is only what the current situation is. All these stupid rules and regulations from Brussels when most of which people complain about aren't from Brussels in the first place. You've thrown so much away on promises which can never be kept. That's the reason May has taken so long to hand in article 50 and why people like Farage are happy to go play in America rather than make things work.
> 
> I do not agree, I think the phrase stronger together is correct and that's exactly the same for scotland as part of the UK and UK as part of the EU. Do find it hypocritcal of those who support leaving the EU "to take back control" when they say Scotland should do what those in the UK voted for though. So if the population of Scotland was the same as the UK what would the referendum result have been? Think 62% to remain would have meant an overall loss. So the larger dictates to the smaller.


Regarding fishing, there are alot of fishing grounds around England, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland that do not belong to the EU that the EU impose fishing quotas on.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding fishing, there are alot of fishing grounds around England, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland that do not belong to the EU.


You do realise that fish don't stick to national borders and don't recognise sovereignty? Stiill doesn't mean that the UK fleet prefers fishing elsewhere either.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yep and you notice the United Kingdom is in that list already. Never said the EU was in it, only if you want to bring in the commonwealth as an alternative to the EU it goes against why you want out of the EU in the first place.


The Commonwealth is nothing to do with the EU so what are you talking about? The Commonwealth existed well before the EU, EC and EEC was ever thought about.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You do realise that fish don't stick to national borders and don't recognise sovereignty?


So? The EU can't claim them if they swim into UK territory can they  They don't have EU property stamped on them do they?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The Commonwealth is nothing to do with the EU so what are you talking about? The Commonwealth existed well before the EU, EC and EEC was ever thought about.


You raised the Commonwealth point not me.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You raised the Commonwealth point not me.


You chose to argue sorry debate about something you clearly know nothing about.

The commonwealth will not be affected by what happens in the negotiations the UK has with the EU it's entirely separate entity that is doing better than the EU ever will and they have no interest in becoming part of the EU.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.au...arative-study/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## Goblin

Okay, daily fail but when talking about fishing... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-fishing-quota-Holland-holds-23-permits.html So tell me, who is responsible for this? Is it the EU or is the UK government?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Goblin said:


> Yep and you notice the United Kingdom is in that list already. Never said the EU was in it, only if you want to bring in the commonwealth as an alternative to the EU it goes against why you want out of the EU in the first place.


 what's the Commonwealth got to do with anything ???


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The commonwealth will not be affected by what happens in the negotiations the UK has with the EU it's entirely separate entity that is doing better than the EU ever will.


So why bother mentioning it in the first place. Oh it was a meaningless bullet point but useful to make it look as though your bullet list was larger.



Happy Paws said:


> what's the Commonwealth got to do with anything ???


I don't know but stockwellcat listed it as an advantage in leaving:



> The UK can become part of the Commonwealth which it was a proud member of before signing up to the EC that later became the EEC and then the EU.


We never left the commonwealth so the only thing he could potentially mean was another trading block simiilar to the EU which was a possibility before signing up to the EC. Otherwise it's just some list of countries harking back to the empire. Used by the leave campaign to stir up feeling of pride in britain and all that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So why bother mentioning it in the first place. Oh it was a meaningless bullet point but useful to make it look you point list better.
> 
> I don't know but stockwellcat listed it as an advantage is leaving:
> 
> We never left the commonwealth so the only thing he could potentially mean was another trading block simiilar to the EU which was a possibility before signing up to the EC. Otherwise it's just some list of countries harking back to the empire.


Sorry for bringing it up again @Happy Paws but @Goblin comparing markets the Commonwealth is doing substantially better than the EU proving the EU is getting left behind.

Sorry this data is somewhat out of date but you'll get the message one hopes?

































The point is this @Goblin the EU isn't the be all and end all when it comes to trade. The Commonwealth is performing far better than the EU on the World stage.

When one looks at the growth potential, Commonwealth nations are growing more rapidly than ailing Eurozone. By the measure of World GDP share Commonwealth nations have overtaken Eurozone (as per 1973 definition) GDP by 2004. With the same measure, Commonwealth is slightly bigger that present Eurozone. After 1973, the economic has been accelerated in Commonwealth zone as compared to Eurozone where the growth has been decelerating slowly from the average level of 3.6% in 70s to meagre 0.7% in recent past.

So remaining in the commonwealth after leaving the EU has its advantages.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Sorry for bringing it up again @Happy Paws but @Goblin comparing markets the Commonwealth is doing substantially better than the EU proving the EU is getting left behind.


Thought you didn't do out of date info, that's your excuse when it suits you 

Doesn't really matter though does it. We can still trade in or out of the EU. Trade deals are possible but to what direct advantage over losing the single market? As stated, India is doing well, we can have a trade deal if we accept more immigrants. Our negotiating power is weakened being outside the EU especially outside the single market. Other countries will negotiate to their benefit, not to the UK's.

You prove once again you've not realised the single market is far more than simply trade deals and it's advantages.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Thought you didn't do out of date info, that's your excuse when it suits you.
> 
> Doesn't really matter though does it. We can still trade in or out of the EU though. Trade deals are possible but to what direct advantage over losing the single market? As stated, India is doing well, we can have a trade deal if we accept more immigrants. Other countries will negotiate to their benefit, not to the UK's.


It's funny you say that about India and the UK as TM was looking to strike a trade deal with the India after Brexit.

How do you think India will benefit from a trade deal with the EU except being forced to take more migrants in there country?

The UK used to trade with India many moons ago so why can't they again?

You really do like putting the UK down don't you?

I apologised for submitting out of date information as I could not find up to date data, perhaps I should look a little harder to find last year's states.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> stir up feeling of pride in britain and all that.


The commonwealth is something to be proud of, at least it's a forward thinking, forward moving entity. Not something you could say about the EU, stuck in a head lock by it's own rules


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## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> It's funny you say that about India and the UK as TM was looking to strike a trade deal with the India after Brexit.


I know, I've mentioned one of their requirements. I'll skip the guardian reference as biased but:
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/Theresa-May’s-underwhelming-visit/article16441936.ece


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## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> *The commonwealth is something to be proud of, at least it's a forward thinking, forward moving entity. Not something you could say about the EU, stuck in a head lock by it's own rules*


That's why I chose to put this as a positive point about leaving the EU because the Commonwealth is growing more rapidly than the EU which at times seems to stall (The EU that is) and the UK is a member of the Commonwealth so trading outside the EU won't be a big of a problem as is being made out to be. The EU like to think of themelves as the dominant trade power and they aren't. The Commonwealth are achieving more than the EU ever will.

@Goblin I know we will still be trading with the EU but it's up to them how they play ball.


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## Goblin

rona said:


> The commonwealth is something to be proud of, at least it's a forward thinking, forward moving entity. Not something you could say about the EU, stuck in a head lock by it's own rules


Funny isn't it we have: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/14/w...h-over-allegations-of-rights-abuses.html?_r=0 Sounds like the UK leaving the EU where rules such as democracy and human rights stuck in a head lock rules.

So tell me what has the commonwealth achieved in the last 50 years to demonstrate it's forward thinking? The UK is ignoring it's own people such as those in Gibraltar yet alone those elsewhere in the world yet alone the commonwealth.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> I do not agree, I think the phrase stronger together is correct and that's exactly the same for scotland as part of the UK and UK as part of the EU. Do find it hypocritcal of those who support leaving the EU "to take back control" when they say Scotland should do what those in the UK voted for though. So if the population of Scotland was the same as the UK what would the referendum result have been? Think 62% to remain would have meant an overall loss. So the larger dictates to the smaller.


I would agree with you but the UK is unfortunately leaving the EU whether we like it or not which changes things a bit....

In that case should the UK government refuse to allow the first minister any say in the negotiations ( with a nod to NI and Gibraltar too) and has to endure a hard Brexit with the rest of the UK I believe they have every right to hold another independence referendum. And good luck to them in my view.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Funny isn't it we have: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/14/w...h-over-allegations-of-rights-abuses.html?_r=0 Sounds like the UK leaving the EU where rules such as democracy and human rights stuck in a head lock rules.
> 
> So tell me what has the commonwealth achieved in the last 50 years to demonstrate it's forward thinking? The UK is ignoring it's own people such as those in Gibraltar yet alone those elsewhere in the world yet alone the commonwealth.











Doesn't the EU look a little small compared to the Commonwealth?


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## stockwellcat.

@Goblin


> *The UK is ignoring it's own people*


 The German, French and Dutch governments are also ignoring there own people hence the rise of populism/far right in these countries. Do you want me to go on because I can?

Let's look at EU growth shall we:
Source: http://news.sky.com/story/encouraging-signs-finally-for-eurozone-economy-10719880

*Whisper it gently*, but after years of malaise and sluggish underperformance, there finally appears to be some good news on the eurozone economy.

There has been a gradual drip of positive economic data in recent weeks and there has been more this week.

On Wednesday, the latest Purchasing Managers Index (PMI) survey data was released.

In these surveys, which are closely-watched as they are a reliable guide to the official GDP data published later, anything above 50 represents growth and anything below that a contraction in economic activity.

The December composite PMI survey for the eurozone, which takes in manufacturing, services and construction, came in at 54.4.

That was up from 53.9 in November and was the strongest showing since May 2011. Encouragingly, the growth was broadly spread, with Spain the star performer.

Even France, where growth remains weaker than the bloc's average, put in its best showing for 18 months.

It suggests that GDP growth in the final three months of the year will be better than the 0.3% achieved during the second and third quarters of the year and is more likely to be on a par with the 0.5% notched up during the first three months of 2016.

Those figures, on Wednesday, were followed by two more encouraging pieces of news on Friday.

Firstly, economic sentiment in the single currency zone, as measured by the European Commission, rose by 1.2 points to 107.8 in December. The long term average, from 1990 to 2016, is 100.0.

The figure, which was the best since March 2011, therefore points to a sharp uptick in sentiment both among consumers and businesses in the eurozone. Germany, the Netherlands and France all led the way.

On top of this, there was some encouraging news from the bloc's most important member, Germany, which revised some manufacturing data from previous months to suggest industrial orders for its mighty manufacturing sector during the last three months of the year were stronger than expected.

Germany's finance ministry now estimates the economy grew by 1.8% during 2016 - the best performance for five years.

That would also appear to be backed up by strong retail sales figures suggesting Germany's notoriously cautious shoppers freely opened their purses and wallets towards the end of the year.

That, perhaps, should be no surprise given the high employment levels in Germany and the recent strength in wages growth there.

Put the figures together and it suggests the eurozone entered 2017 in its best position for six years.

That echo to 2011 is especially significant, as that was the last full year before the crisis in eurozone sovereign debt blew up, signalling years of crisis management for the European Central Bank (ECB) as the debts of Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy threatened to spiral out of control.

But why the strong growth? A number of factors. The most obvious is the weakness of the euro, particularly against the US dollar but also against other currencies, which has made the cost of exports from the eurozone - and notably Germany - more competitive.

The other is the vast amount of financial medicine doled out by the ECB, which in March 2015 began injecting €60bn into the economy each month via bond purchases, hiked to €80bn a year later.

That has put money into the pockets of businesses and, ultimately, consumers.

The first indication that this latter policy was working came when, last month, the ECB president Mario Draghi reduced the extent of bond purchases back to €60bn and said the programme would end in 2017.

That in turn has provided a wake-up to businesses which have been put on notice that they are not going to have access to cheap funding forever. A wave of takeovers in Germany, for example, is expected this year as a consequence.

*However, to prove there is a cloud to every silver lining, the improved picture is causing some concern already.*

After years of fretting about deflation in the eurozone, December's inflation figures in the single currency area were the highest for three years, sparking calls from economists in Germany - where hatred of inflation is ingrained in the national psyche - for the ECB to act.

Expect those calls to intensify if growth and, with it inflation, continue to pick up.
-----------------

The EU has very slow growth compared to the Commonwealth.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> @Goblin The German, French and Dutch governments are also ignoring there own people hence the rise of populism/far right in these countries. Do you want me to go on because I can?


The government of the UK is not listening to almost half it's voters either after Brexit. No change there.

I think I get what you are trying to do regarding growth but it doesn't wash. Trade deals will not suddenly increase growth of the UK economy which is service rather than manufacturing based. Servicing is not really provided for in WTO rules by the way but that is changing. However that is unelected bureaucrats making decisions and rules rather than a democratic process. Growth of commenwealth means more power to negotiate favourable deals to import loads to the UK which already has a trade imbalance.

Doesn't make the commonwealth a viable alternative to the EU either. How many additional rules and standards will any manufacturer need for example, along with tests and inspections to ensure those standards are met? What is acceptable in one country may well not be in another. Import standards will also need to be negotiated with each country.

I wonder, which country in the EU has the most national and personal debt?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> The government of the UK is not listening to almost half it's voters either after Brexit. No change there.


You are correct there is no change there.

Those that voted against the UK joining the EC or EEC never got listened to and where ignored by the Government and Parliament for over 4 decades (40 odd years).


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have a question for you. Are the Germans tempting fate in there country with the rise of Populism/Far Right movements by lifting the ban on this book in Germany and republishing it and selling it?

*Mein Kampf is a best-seller after decades of being banned*

A year after it returned to Germany, Adolf Hitler's autobiography has become a best-seller.

In January 2016, a new edition was *published by the Institute of Contemporary History of Munich.*

Since then, 85,000 copies have been sold and the book is now in its sixth print run.

http://news.sky.com/story/mein-kampf-is-a-best-seller-after-decades-of-being-banned-10721919


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## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 296625
> 
> Doesn't the EU look a little small compared to the Commonwealth?


Do you listen to experts from the Commonwealth then?

*UK at risk of Brexit 'catastrophe' warns Canadian trade expert.*

Former EU ambassador Sir Ivan Rogers 'absolutely right to say replacement deal may take a decade to sort out'

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...exit-trade-catastrophe?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Do you listen to experts from the Commonwealth then?
> 
> *UK at risk of Brexit 'catastrophe' warns Canadian trade expert.*
> 
> *Former EU ambassador Sir Ivan Rogers 'absolutely right to say replacement deal may take a decade to sort out*'
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...exit-trade-catastrophe?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Sir Ivan Rogers is history. He was a remainer who wasn't very happy that the UK voted to leave and wanted to scupper the Brexit talks.

Let's see how good Sir Tim Barrow.

Even if the trade deal with the EU takes 10 years so what. We'll have trade deals with Australia, America, China, Saudi Arabia, Greenland, Mexico etc so the EU will end up being at the back of the queue if they want to be difficult. You don't think surely the UK will focus all of its resources on the EU. The UK will be looking at striking trade deals with other countries straight after the Brexit talks they aren't just going to focus on just a trade deal with the EU. You do know that the initial divorce with the EU (Brexit talks) is just that, the trade talks take place after we left in 2 years time.


----------



## noushka05

No, this isn't Ivan Rogers. This is a Canadian EXPERT.

Britain risks a "catastrophic" Brexit because the government is so dismissive of the concerns of trade experts, according to one of the figures behind the EU-Canada trade deal which took a decade to negotiate.

*Writing in the *_*Observer*_*, Jason Langrish - one of Canada's authorities in the field* - says the UK's former ambassador to the EU, Sir Ivan Rogers, who resigned last week and quit the civil service, was absolutely right to say that a British deal could also take a decade to strike.

Langrish, who was closely involved in the prolonged Canadian talks, argues that Rogers' analysis of the time-scale "seems realistic", and says discussions he has had with UK government officials about Brexit suggest that there is little chance of minimising serious potential damage from the UK's exit from the European Union.

Although he has no formal role in advising the UK, Langrish has been sounded out behind the scenes by those involved with handling Brexit in Whitehall. The impression he has been left with is that unless the British government shows more flexibility it will probably have to revert to World Trade Organisation rules and common tariffs, which could lop 4% off UK GDP


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No, this isn't Ivan Rogers. This is a Canadian EXPERT.
> 
> Britain risks a "catastrophic" Brexit because the government is so dismissive of the concerns of trade experts, according to one of the figures behind the EU-Canada trade deal which took a decade to negotiate.
> 
> *Writing in the *_*Observer*_*, Jason Langrish - one of Canada's authorities in the field* - says the UK's former ambassador to the EU, Sir Ivan Rogers, who resigned last week and quit the civil service, was absolutely right to say that a British deal could also take a decade to strike.
> 
> Langrish, who was closely involved in the prolonged Canadian talks, argues that Rogers' analysis of the time-scale "seems realistic", and says discussions he has had with UK government officials about Brexit suggest that there is little chance of minimising serious potential damage from the UK's exit from the European Union.
> 
> Although he has no formal role in advising the UK, Langrish has been sounded out behind the scenes by those involved with handling Brexit in Whitehall. The impression he has been left with is that unless the British government shows more flexibility it will probably have to revert to World Trade Organisation rules and common tariffs, which could lop 4% off UK GDP


Why are "so called" experts so negative and always look at the worst case scenario? They don't apologise either when they get there expert advice wrong.

Bank of England recently admitted they got things wrong (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....land-admits-errors?client=ms-android-motorola).

Economists recently admitted they got things wrong.

Financial Crash 2008 economists where wrong (http://mobile.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/magazine/06Economic-t.html)

Experts got it wrong for not predicting Trump victory: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ecasters-recession?client=ms-android-motorola

*Beware: the experts are usually poor forecasters:*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...r-forecasters/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola
To say that experts often get it wrong is an understatement.

Philip Tetlock, a brilliant US academic who has studied this phenomenon in detail, once concluded that *the average "expert" was in fact "roughly as accurate as a dart-throwing chimpanzee". *Consumers of expert advice should thus always heed the old adage of caveat emptor, or "let the buyer beware".

The record of private and public sector forecasters is all too often abysmal, and in some cases almost a counter-indicator. The world craves certainty, even though no such thing can possibly exist. Pollsters thought that Labour would win the last election, have miscalled many others around the world and didn't originally foresee the rise of Donald Trump. Most economists and large companies supported the UK's membership of the euro, for example, which would have been a complete disaster. With a few heroic exceptions, hardly any economists saw the financial crisis and Great Recession coming, and of the very few who did spot that something was amiss hardly any worked out how the collapse would unfold.









Pollsters failed to predict the rise of Donald Trump

So much for the big calls; the smaller ones tend to be equally wrong. We tend to see a strong bias towards over-optimism at the top of a boom and towards excessive pessimism at the trough of a recession. GDP numbers are always at least a little incorrect, and nobody predicted the employment bonanza of the past few years or the disappointing productivity performance. Even the Bank of England cannot correctly predict its own actions. As to most active fund managers, again with a number of brilliant exceptions, they aren't worth the money: they cannot consistently deliver above-market returns after costs, even though that is their job. It gets worse: even oil companies cannot accurately work out what's going to happen to the price of oil.

This doesn't mean that all forecasters are equally useless: in his latest book, Superforecasting: The Art and Science of Prediction, co-authored with Dan Gardner, Tetlock recounts how he has discovered a small category of superior analysts that stand out from the mediocre average. These superforecasters include gifted amateurs as well as nuclear physicists; they are invariably humble, aware that the world is a complex system and, crucially, prepared to learn from their mistakes.

Tetlock's book is of fundamental importance and should be read by everybody in economics, business, finance and politics who want to improve their ability to understand and predict trends and developments. Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary, was seen consulting the book before taking his fateful decision to back the Brexit side.









A poll of more than 100 economists at the start of the year found that 76 thought Brexit would be bad for the UK economy

*The problem is that it is impossible to know from the outset which so-called expert is actually a superforecaster and who will turn out to be no better than a random prediction machine. We therefore need to be very careful when listening to the expert consensus.*

A poll of more than 100 economists by the Financial Times at the start of the year found that 76 thought Brexit would be bad for the UK economy, 18 believed that it wouldn't make much of a difference and just eight argued that it would be good for growth. Given economists' abysmal record of assessing complex, multi-faceted situations such as the launch of the euro or the onset of the credit crisis, I suspect that most are not actually superforecasters and thus that very little can be deduced from this poll. There is a wisdom of the crowd, but in this case, as in many others, the fact that a majority holds a particular view tells us nothing as to whether it is correct or not. My own view is that it isn't: I suspect that a Brexit would either boost growth long term or not affect it at all, depending on the quality of the British government that would take over after a Leave vote, but of course I too could be wrong.

Or take another crucially important prediction: what is happening to the UK and global economies right now. The latest, downbeat purchasing managers' figures have prompted a spate of downgrades to first-quarter growth: in the case of the UK, I've seen various economists predicting expansion of 0.2pc, 0.3pc or 0.4pc. This would represent a significant and possibly even severe slowdown; were the economy merely to eek ahead in the first three months of the year, the risk of a further slowdown would be great. This is potentially an important moment for the economy: are we simply slowing, perhaps temporarily, or is the economy grinding to a halt?

Most City economists are blaming the possibility of a Brexit, which they say is upsetting businesses. In recent weeks, they have started to pin every piece of negative news on the Brexit debate, which is clearly nonsense (if only because other countries are slowing, too); a few weeks before, they were blaming the decline in the price of oil or the threat of higher interest rates, which was an equally incomplete analysis. Since then, we also had the stock market turmoil caused by worries about banks' profitability in the new, low interest rate era; further evidence of a Chinese slowdown; increased geopolitical uncertainty in the US; myriad economic and corporate data points; and plenty else.

As it happens, I do think that the decline in sterling over the past two weeks was partly caused by a reassessment of the probability of Brexit - but as the two to three cent recovery in the pound's value since also shows, markets move in mysterious ways. Misplaced fears about Brexit are not helping the business environment, but the lower pound will cancel some of that out by making life easier for exporters.

The bottom line: the experts are right that the economy is growing less quickly, but neither they nor anybody else can yet be sure of the reason, the extent and the durability of the slowdown.

---------------

*This is why I take what the "so called" experts say with a large pinch of salt.*


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Why are "so called" experts so negative and always look at the worst case scenario? They don't apologise either when they get there expert advice wrong.
> 
> Bank of England recently admitted they got things wrong (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....land-admits-errors?client=ms-android-motorola).
> 
> Economists recently admitted they got things wrong.
> 
> Financial Crash 2008 economists where wrong (http://mobile.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/magazine/06Economic-t.html)
> 
> Experts got it wrong for not predicting Trump victory: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ecasters-recession?client=ms-android-motorola
> 
> This is why I take what the "so called" experts with a large pinch of salt.


But more often than not the consensual position of experts is right! Like a climate change denier, you have extreme confirmation bias so although you will take the position of the vast majority of experts with a pinch of salt, the few who feed your bias you will use them to support your case. So funny  Another common theme amongst brexiers, is they will belittle experts yet feel they themselves have the expertise to pass judgement on EVERYTHING. Such irony lol.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> But more often than not the consensual position of experts is right! Like a climate change denier, you have extreme confirmation bias so although you will take the position of the vast majority of experts with a pinch of salt, the few who feed your bias you will use them to support your case. So funny  Another common theme amongst brexiers, is they will belittle experts yet feel they themselves have the expertise to pass judgement on EVERYTHING. Such irony lol.


Oh you missed off this from my quoted text, is that because you don't want to read it and chose to ignore it? I even took the time to copy and paste the entire news article for you to read :
*Beware: the experts are usually poor forecasters:*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...r-forecasters/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola

It's also very funny that some remainers think they are so right because a small few are against Brexit now


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Shhh! Six Months After Brexit Vote, UK 'Has World's Top Economy'*

In June, when UK voters decided to leave the European Union in the "Brexit" referendum, the U.S. press told the American people that the UK economy would suffer greatly as a result. Moody's economist and max Hillary Clinton contributor Mark Zandi predicted that it would be "going down the rabbit hole." At CBS News, Mellody Hobson said that "they're acting as if a recession is a foregone conclusion."

*It's one thing to predict a disaster that doesn't happen. It's quite another to predict bad news and have things turn out pretty darned well, which is thus far what has occurred. *You'd never know it from reading U.S.-based establishment press coverage, but *the UK economy, as reported in the UK Times, "ended last year as the strongest of the world's advanced economies with growth accelerating in the six months after the Brexit vote."*

*The result is so completely the opposite of what was predicted that the chief economist at England's central bank, *in a moment of refreshing candor that folks in the U.S. can only wish they would see coming from our Federal Reserve, has admitted that *economists committed historically serious forecasting errors*.

In another development we can only dream about here in the U.S., thanks to our partisan academic establishment, *a British university has assessed forecasts of how the UK economy would perform outside of the EU, which were used to try to sway voters to remain in it, as "flawed and partisan."*

https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/n...s-after-brexit-vote-uk-has-worlds-top-economy


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> Oh you missed off this from my quoted text, is that because you don't want to read it and chose to ignore it? I even took the time to copy and paste the entire news article for you to read :
> *Beware: the experts are usually poor forecasters:*
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...r-forecasters/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola
> 
> It's also very funny that some remainers think they are so right because a small few are against Brexit now


Also quite often, the "experts" have a vested interest in something going one way or the other. I don't suppose that might have something to do with their opinion eh?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Also quite often, the "experts" have a vested interest in something going one way or the other. I don't suppose that might have something to do with their opinion eh?


Well here's an expert you seem accept (or is only when he says something that agrees with your confirmation bias? lol)

*Miles King* ‏@*MilesKing10* Jan 6

_"One day in Brexitland: No plan, no capacity & very little time". More excellent analysis by _@*iandunt* http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...itland-no-plan-no-capacity-and-lots-of-proble

(it is an excellent analysis too  )

*
One day in Brexitland: No plan, no capacity and very little time*










The main Brexit news today is on Ivan Rogers' resignation letter, which aims a not-so-subtle bullet at the government's Brexit strategy, or rather its lack of one.

The letter reveals that if there is a Brexit plan, no-one has bothered to inform our man in Brussels about it. "We do not yet know what the government will set as negotiating objectives for the UK's relationship with the EU after exit," Rogers wrote to staff as he departed.

The letter insinuates that UK Representation to the EU (UKREP), one of the few bodies with a working knowledge of our future negotiating partners in Brussels, is being ignored by Downing Street, presumably because it is seen as insufficiently loyal to the Brexit cause. "The government will only achieve the best for the country if it harnesses the best experience we have - a large proportion of which is concentrated in UKREP - and negotiates resolutely," Rogers says, pointedly.

It appears that a Brexit plan is not the only thing missing. With just three months to go until arguably the most important negotiations in Britain's history, the team was still nowhere near put together, nor communicating effectively. "The structure of the UK's negotiating team and the allocation of roles and responsibilities to support that team needs rapid resolution," the letter says. "Serious multilateral negotiating experience is in short supply in Whitehall, and that is not the case in the Commission or in the Council

Rogers ends by encouraging his fellow civil servants to "continue to challenge ill-founded arguments and muddled thinking" and "never be afraid to speak the truth to those in power".

The message is quite clear: We have insufficient negotiating capacity, a British team which is not coordinating between Whitehall and Brussels - let alone Geneva where we will have to extract WTO schedules - insufficient understanding of the opposing negotiating team, no plan, and a political leadership which treats sober reflection and strategic caution as unpatriotic sacrilege. It's now 2017 and everything seems unchanged from where we were when Theresa May entered Downing Street.

So that's where we are. But peer behind the main headline and take a look at the less-reported but equally crucial report released this morning by the environmental audit committee. It gives you an impression of the scale of the danger hurtling towards Britain in just one area - farming and the environment - while it sits, unprepared, without a team or a strategy.

Firstly, economics. If the government leaves the single market and customs union and fails to secure any tariff exemptions, farmers face devastation. Ninety-five per cent of our sheep exports go to Europe, but these will face a whopping 30% tariff. Dairy exports would be 36%, beef up to 50%.










This is sector which is already eking out a marginal existence. These tariffs, if they hit, are going to be ruinous. And that's not the only area farmers are likely to lose. The committee reported that witnesses feared agriculture would be the sacrifice Westminster makes in future trade deals in order to secure a role for British financial services. After all, investment banks provide much more money to the economy, and agricultural exports are far more vital to countries in, say, South America. Cheap, hormone-fed beef is likely to then flood the UK market, further eradicating domestic farming's economic viability and the high standards of animal welfare and public safety which consumers have come to expect.

Farmers used to be protected by EU subsidies, but the future of these is uncertain. Ministers have pledged to continue them until 2020, but what happens after that is anyone's guess. As chair of the committee Mary Creagh said: "It was concerning that the environment secretary gave my committee no reassurance that there would be subsidies for farmers after we leave the EU."

Without those subsidies, pork and beef producers would close up shop. Cereals might be able to make it - it'll be touch and go. Poultry would probably be OK. Everyone else has a major problem. It would constitute a very violent and sudden change to Britain's farming industry and its countryside. EU farm subsidies currently make up 50% to 60% of UK farm income










It's not even really clear if we could legally continue the subsidies under WTO membership, which brands them 'market distorting'. The EU subsidies are part of a specific agreement with the WTO. Whether Britain could claim to still be part of it after Brexit is up for question. That too would require negotiation, of the type which Rogers warned we were failing at, in terms of capacity, coordination and leadership.

And then there is the law, which is arguably the most devilishly complicated part of the Brexit puzzle. The government plans to copy-and-paste EU law into British law using the unfortunately named great repeal bill. The committee estimates that this will fail to protect one third of the 800 EU environmental laws currently in force in Britain.

Here's the thing: you can copy-and-paste the text of a law, but unless you recognise the European Environment Agency, the European Commission and the European Court of Justice, it is zombie legislation. It can't be enforced and it can't be updated to reflect new scientific understanding. As the committee found: "Simply transposing legislation without replacing the governance arrangements will lead to significant weakening of environmental protections in many areas

These are the types of endless problems which are about to hit us. And we're running out of time. It's not just Article 50 which counts. It's the breathing space individual businesses have to make long-term decisions. That's why banks will start to announce their plans to move offices next month, so they have a chance of establishing themselves in Europe before they lose passporting rights in 2019. And that's why farmers need to make key decisions on their future now, because long supply chain planning decisions in the sector require a mid-2017 action for results two years later.

In* both these disparate cases - the City and farms - the uncertainty of Brexit and the lack of a plan means you take decisions which maximise your room to maneuver down the line. So City firms move admin jobs to the continent, which they frankly wanted to do anyway. And farmers start ploughing grassland as a means of securing flexibility for the future. By the time the government figures out what's going on, the practical effects of the uncertainty will already be felt in countless individual decisions, made early due to the lack of information from Westminster.*

* That's the scale of the challenge and the severity of the time frame which Britain faces. Over half a year since the referendum, there is no sign of a grown-up approach to the challenge, a tactical approach to the talks, or a sensible use of the finite resources Britain has to use in addressing them.

Instead, there is the strange new political mood: Of historic mission, instinctive distrust of critical thinking and an almost religious zeal in which anyone who disagrees with you is branded an enemy of the people*.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Also quite often, the "experts" have a vested interest in something going one way or the other. I don't suppose that might have something to do with their opinion eh?


Opinions are fine.
Facts are even better.
But claiming opinions as fact is wrong especially when there so called facts/opinions are proven wrong.

Fact: The UK has the strongest Economy in the World 6 months after the referendum due to fast accelerated growth.

Fact: Experts claim they are right but are often very wrong.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Well here's an expert you seem accept (or is only when he says something that agrees with your confirmation bias? lol)
> 
> *Miles King* ‏@*MilesKing10* Jan 6
> 
> _"One day in Brexitland: No plan, no capacity & very little time". More excellent analysis by _@*iandunt* http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...itland-no-plan-no-capacity-and-lots-of-proble
> 
> (it is an excellent analysis too  )
> 
> *
> One day in Brexitland: No plan, no capacity and very little time*
> 
> View attachment 296733
> 
> 
> The main Brexit news today is on Ivan Rogers' resignation letter, which aims a not-so-subtle bullet at the government's Brexit strategy, or rather its lack of one.
> 
> The letter reveals that if there is a Brexit plan, no-one has bothered to inform our man in Brussels about it. "We do not yet know what the government will set as negotiating objectives for the UK's relationship with the EU after exit," Rogers wrote to staff as he departed.
> 
> The letter insinuates that UK Representation to the EU (UKREP), one of the few bodies with a working knowledge of our future negotiating partners in Brussels, is being ignored by Downing Street, presumably because it is seen as insufficiently loyal to the Brexit cause. "The government will only achieve the best for the country if it harnesses the best experience we have - a large proportion of which is concentrated in UKREP - and negotiates resolutely," Rogers says, pointedly.
> 
> It appears that a Brexit plan is not the only thing missing. With just three months to go until arguably the most important negotiations in Britain's history, the team was still nowhere near put together, nor communicating effectively. "The structure of the UK's negotiating team and the allocation of roles and responsibilities to support that team needs rapid resolution," the letter says. "Serious multilateral negotiating experience is in short supply in Whitehall, and that is not the case in the Commission or in the Council
> 
> Rogers ends by encouraging his fellow civil servants to "continue to challenge ill-founded arguments and muddled thinking" and "never be afraid to speak the truth to those in power".
> 
> The message is quite clear: We have insufficient negotiating capacity, a British team which is not coordinating between Whitehall and Brussels - let alone Geneva where we will have to extract WTO schedules - insufficient understanding of the opposing negotiating team, no plan, and a political leadership which treats sober reflection and strategic caution as unpatriotic sacrilege. It's now 2017 and everything seems unchanged from where we were when Theresa May entered Downing Street.
> 
> So that's where we are. But peer behind the main headline and take a look at the less-reported but equally crucial report released this morning by the environmental audit committee. It gives you an impression of the scale of the danger hurtling towards Britain in just one area - farming and the environment - while it sits, unprepared, without a team or a strategy.
> 
> Firstly, economics. If the government leaves the single market and customs union and fails to secure any tariff exemptions, farmers face devastation. Ninety-five per cent of our sheep exports go to Europe, but these will face a whopping 30% tariff. Dairy exports would be 36%, beef up to 50%.
> 
> View attachment 296734
> 
> 
> This is sector which is already eking out a marginal existence. These tariffs, if they hit, are going to be ruinous. And that's not the only area farmers are likely to lose. The committee reported that witnesses feared agriculture would be the sacrifice Westminster makes in future trade deals in order to secure a role for British financial services. After all, investment banks provide much more money to the economy, and agricultural exports are far more vital to countries in, say, South America. Cheap, hormone-fed beef is likely to then flood the UK market, further eradicating domestic farming's economic viability and the high standards of animal welfare and public safety which consumers have come to expect.
> 
> Farmers used to be protected by EU subsidies, but the future of these is uncertain. Ministers have pledged to continue them until 2020, but what happens after that is anyone's guess. As chair of the committee Mary Creagh said: "It was concerning that the environment secretary gave my committee no reassurance that there would be subsidies for farmers after we leave the EU."
> 
> Without those subsidies, pork and beef producers would close up shop. Cereals might be able to make it - it'll be touch and go. Poultry would probably be OK. Everyone else has a major problem. It would constitute a very violent and sudden change to Britain's farming industry and its countryside. EU farm subsidies currently make up 50% to 60% of UK farm income
> 
> View attachment 296735
> 
> 
> It's not even really clear if we could legally continue the subsidies under WTO membership, which brands them 'market distorting'. The EU subsidies are part of a specific agreement with the WTO. Whether Britain could claim to still be part of it after Brexit is up for question. That too would require negotiation, of the type which Rogers warned we were failing at, in terms of capacity, coordination and leadership.
> 
> And then there is the law, which is arguably the most devilishly complicated part of the Brexit puzzle. The government plans to copy-and-paste EU law into British law using the unfortunately named great repeal bill. The committee estimates that this will fail to protect one third of the 800 EU environmental laws currently in force in Britain.
> 
> Here's the thing: you can copy-and-paste the text of a law, but unless you recognise the European Environment Agency, the European Commission and the European Court of Justice, it is zombie legislation. It can't be enforced and it can't be updated to reflect new scientific understanding. As the committee found: "Simply transposing legislation without replacing the governance arrangements will lead to significant weakening of environmental protections in many areas
> 
> These are the types of endless problems which are about to hit us. And we're running out of time. It's not just Article 50 which counts. It's the breathing space individual businesses have to make long-term decisions. That's why banks will start to announce their plans to move offices next month, so they have a chance of establishing themselves in Europe before they lose passporting rights in 2019. And that's why farmers need to make key decisions on their future now, because long supply chain planning decisions in the sector require a mid-2017 action for results two years later.
> 
> In* both these disparate cases - the City and farms - the uncertainty of Brexit and the lack of a plan means you take decisions which maximise your room to maneuver down the line. So City firms move admin jobs to the continent, which they frankly wanted to do anyway. And farmers start ploughing grassland as a means of securing flexibility for the future. By the time the government figures out what's going on, the practical effects of the uncertainty will already be felt in countless individual decisions, made early due to the lack of information from Westminster.*
> 
> * That's the scale of the challenge and the severity of the time frame which Britain faces. Over half a year since the referendum, there is no sign of a grown-up approach to the challenge, a tactical approach to the talks, or a sensible use of the finite resources Britain has to use in addressing them.
> 
> Instead, there is the strange new political mood: Of historic mission, instinctive distrust of critical thinking and an almost religious zeal in which anyone who disagrees with you is branded an enemy of the people*.


You can't claim the Government don't have a plan as fact because there is no actual proof of this. It is opinions from those that like to think the Government have no plan.

Miles King is welcome to his opinion and you are welcome to believe him but it is not actual facts. You really do underestimate the Government don't you. You really believe that they will be stupid enough to turn up in Brussels with no plan?

Theresa May the Prime Minister said she is going to outline the Brexit plans by the end of January 2017.


----------



## Honeys mum

Theresa May to set out 'Brexit vision' and warn UK will quit single market if it is not given control over borders

Maybe she has already made a start.


----------



## KittenKong

So much for uniting the UK!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 296742
> 
> 
> So much for uniting the UK!


I don't understand which part of we are leaving the EU remainers don't understand. We will be leaving which means leave. The UK has been told we can't cherry pick and keep parts of what we want to keep. Controlling migration into the UK will mean losing access to the Single Market as freedom of movement of workers is one of the four freedoms the EU demands that each country has within it. We won't be in the EU. The Government isn't muddled or confused of what Brexit will be as Sir Ivan Rogers made them out to be. The Government is going to negotiate the best possible access businesses and banks can get with the EU. But from what TM has said from the Sophy Ridge show we are leaving the EU not Europe and need to work on what relationship we can have with the EU outside of the EU. She stopped short of saying hard Brexit but reading between the lines we are leaving the EU and that can't be explained in any other way.


----------



## stockwellcat.

My opinion is this leaving means leave not keep one foot in the EU and one foot out of the EU.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> My opinion is this leaving means leave not keep one foot in the EU and one foot out of the EU.


Same here stockwellcat.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I don't understand which part of we are leaving the EU remainers don't understand.





stockwellcat said:


> My opinion is this leaving means leave not keep one foot in the EU and one foot out of the EU.





stockwellcat said:


> Opinions are fine.
> Facts are even better.
> But claiming opinions as fact is wrong especially when there so called facts/opinions are proven wrong.


It certainly saves time when you counter your own statements.

But to reiterate, this remainer understands the fact that we are leaving. But also understands that negotiating levels of access to the single market and customs union is quite separate from leaving.

I did point out to you all the various countries that were inside the single market / customs union and outside the EU, but that appears to be a fact you have chosen to ignore.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Fact: The UK has the strongest Economy in the World 6 months after the referendum due to fast accelerated growth.


Figure in the current losses in the exchange rate against currencies such as the € and $ and we are no longer the 5th. Considering those rankings aren't based on sterling we have effectively dropped in the rankings. Fact.

Remind me again, how much debt does the UK have again? More than any other country in the EU and as the pound drops, it owes more. Remind me again what happens whenever May pushes the idea of a hard brexit. Yep, pound drops.

TM has a plan.. try to get the best out of a situation we never should have been in in the first place if people had put facts before media and politician spin. It's taking so long as she cannot please everyone and needs to spin any possible achievement she can.

Tell us please what deals are the benefits of trade deals and what advantages to other countries we offer to get them to deal prefereably with us rather than for us to become dictated to?


----------



## stockwellcat.

PM on Sophie Ridge Show.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It certainly saves time when you counter your own statements.
> 
> But to reiterate, this remainer understands the fact that we are leaving. But also understands that negotiating levels of access to the single market and customs union is quite separate from leaving.
> 
> I did point out to you all the various countries that were inside the single market / customs union and outside the EU, but that appears to be a fact you have chosen to ignore.


@Goblin
Pick, pick, pick seems to be what remainers like doing.

Well the UK is seeking a deal suitable for the UK not based on models for Norway or Switzerland. This is the UK so why have a Norway or Swiss deal when we are not any part of these countries?

Anything else you wish to pick on because you are a little bit upset because we are actually leaving the EU?

The UK will be seeking its own trade deals separate from the EU and you see that remainers are scared the UK may actually succeed outside the EU. We are already the world's leading economy oh economists and so called experts forecasted this wrong didn't they. The UK saw growth accelerate rapidly in the six months after the referendum which shows the UK is open for business and outward thinking not inward looking like the EU.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Sounds good doesn't it, and you believe what she says


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I have a question for you. Are the Germans tempting fate in there country with the rise of Populism/Far Right movements by lifting the ban on this book in Germany and republishing it and selling it?


Maybe while it still exists you should use the free movement rules to travel a bit through the EU, possibly including places like Germany and Gibraltar in your travels.

I notice you skip most of the actual report to get sensationalism.

Here's another one report: https://www.thelocal.de/20170105/85000-copies-of-mein-kampf-sold-in-germany-in-past-year

What is interesting is most are brought by people not associated with the populism or far right movements, although to be sure they do also buy it. Wouldn't be a shock to have more brought in the east than west either. The lessons of history with WWII are still ingrained in Germany. It's a criminal offence for example to do a hitler salute or wear a swastika (something to be aware of when visiting). There's a common saying "...Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it..." I would say the very fact that it is published and people are looking at it in a historical context is good not bad.

Unfortunately those who remember history remember things like "companies to keep lists of immigrants working for them" and the idea of judges being traitors for going against the "will of the people" are more scary and relevent. UK hasn't learned the harsh lessons which Germany was forced to. It could still happen in Germany though as well. The idea of scapegoating and blaming others calling for "taking back control" is always a powerful one even if it's not based in facts.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Sounds good doesn't it, and you believe what she says


Well I would rather believe TM than an economist and so called expert who predict doom and gloom and the opposite happened. Have fun remainers because I can't wait until you are all proved wrong and the UK succeeds outside the EU, there is a world beyond the EU and what makes you think the UK can't negotiate its own beneficial trade deals? Are you calling everyone in the UK thick planks who don't have the wisdom to look after themselves? You are so wrong.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Maybe while it still exists you should use the free movement rules to travel a bit through the EU, possibly including places like Germany and Gibraltar in your travels.
> 
> I notice you skip most of the actual report to get sensationalism.
> 
> Here's another one report: https://www.thelocal.de/20170105/85000-copies-of-mein-kampf-sold-in-germany-in-past-year
> 
> What is interesting is most are brought by people not associated with the populism or far right movements, although to be sure they do also buy it. Wouldn't be a shock to have more brought in the east than west either. The lessons of history with WWII are still ingrained in Germany. It's a criminal offence for example to do a hitler salute or wear a swastika (something to be aware of when visiting). There's a common saying "...Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it..." I would say the very fact that it is published and people are looking at it in a historical context is good not bad.
> 
> Unfortunately those who remember history remember things like "companies to keep lists of immigrants working for them" and the idea of judges being traitors for going against the "will of the people" are more scary and relevent. UK hasn't learned the harsh lessons which Germany was forced to. It could still happen in Germany though as well. The idea of scapegoating and blaming others calling for "taking back control" is always a powerful one even if it's not based in facts.


Lived in West Germany when I was a child (My dad was in the UK armed forces) the Berlin wall was up, lived in the Netherlands in the 1990's and found there culture laid back and people friendly and I have been to France recently and never met such a rude amount of people. Haven't been to Spain yet but I have no interest to.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Well the UK is seeking a deal suitable for the UK not based on models for Norway or Switzerland. This is the UK so why have a Norway or Swiss deal when we are not any part of these countries?


Nobody was saying we are. Point is we have a poor negotiation position. Trade deals are rarely mutually beneficial. Obviously facts and educating yourself are not important to you.



> The UK saw growth accelerate rapidly in the six months after the referendum which shows the UK is open for business and outward thinking not inward looking like the EU.


Obviously ignoring we've dropped ranking in reality.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Well I would rather believe TM than an economist and so called expert who predict doom and gloom and the opposite happened. Have fun remainers because I can't wait until you are all proved wrong and the UK succeeds outside the EU, there is a world beyond the EU and what makes you think the UK can't negotiate its own beneficial trade deals? *Are you calling everyone in the UK thick planks who don't have the wisdom to look after themselves? You are so wrong*.


No I'm not saying that, but the thought of the tories looking after anyone, well that's funny


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Nobody was saying we are. Point is we have a poor negotiation position. Trade deals are rarely mutually beneficial. Obviously facts and educating yourself are not important to you.
> 
> Obviously ignoring we've dropped ranking in reality.


The Government has not revealed its negotiating strategy or hand and have said they won't, so how do you know the UK is in a poor negotiating position? How do you know that the Department for Leaving the EU hasn't hired negotiators from Australia or Canadia or seeked advise from these countries. You're clasping at straws. No one will know until the UK is around the negotiating table with the EU.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The Government has not revealed its negotiating strategy or hand and have said they won't, so how do you know the UK is in a poor negotiating position? How do you know that the Department for Leaving the EU hasn't hired negotiators from Australia or Canadia or seeked advise from these countries. You clasping at straws. No one will know until the UK is around the negotiating table with the EU.


It's not about negotitaion strategy although I know you love TM's spin on that. It's negotiating power based on facts and experts. What point in hiring negotiators when they are experts and experts say the UK is in a poor negotiating position? You have stated experts are wrong. Sounds as though you should do it


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> It's not about negotitaion strategy although I know you love TM's spin on that. *It's negotiating power based on facts and experts. *What point in hiring negotiators when they are experts and experts say the UK is in a poor negotiating position? You have stated experts are wrong. Sounds as though you should do it


What facts? What experts?
So far most experts have been completely wrong. Again you are welcome to believe who you want but that is there opinion not fact as nothing has happened yet regarding negotiations with the EU.

We are negotiating our departure remember first the trade deal will be negotiated two plus years later as Junker has banned the UK from signing up to any new trade deals before we Brexit. But you need to understand once the agreement has been made for the UK to leave the EU the UK won't just be seeking a trade deal with the EU, the EU may well go to the back of the queue when the UK is seeking a trade deal and there is potential for the UK to grow very fast with its own beneficial trade deals with other countries around the world like India, Australia, China, America etc, etc. The UK will be able to strike trade deals quicker than the EU as we won't be seeking approval from 27 other countries and Brussels separate areas that have to also agree or reject deals.

Liam Fox has already got 50 countries for the UK to negotiate trade deals with once the UK Brexit officially from the EU.


----------



## Honeys mum

LIVE: PM Theresa May speaks to Sophy Ridge on Sunday


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> @Goblin
> Pick, pick, pick seems to be what remainers like doing.
> 
> Well the UK is seeking a deal suitable for the UK not based on models for Norway or Switzerland. This is the UK so why have a Norway or Swiss deal when we are not any part of these countries?
> 
> Anything else you wish to pick on because you are a little bit upset because we are actually leaving the EU?
> 
> The UK will be seeking its own trade deals separate from the EU and you see that remainers are scared the UK may actually succeed outside the EU. We are already the world's leading economy oh economists and so called experts forecasted this wrong didn't they. The UK saw growth accelerate rapidly in the six months after the referendum which shows the UK is open for business and outward thinking not inward looking like the EU.


I prefer to call it quoting facts rather than 'picking', but, whatever.

I didn't advocate a Norway or Switzerland deal; I merely pointed out - again - that leaving the EU is not synonymous with leaving the single market / customs union.

I'm not a little bit upset that we are leaving the EU; I am a lot upset. Not because of the potential state of the country and the economy when we leave, but because of what the vote told me about some of the British people.

I think I will end my responses to you from now on for various reasons, and simply close by pointing out that your last paragraph is, I'm afraid, largely nonsense.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I prefer to call it quoting facts rather than 'picking', but, whatever.
> 
> I didn't advocate a Norway or Switzerland deal; I merely pointed out - again - that leaving the EU is not synonymous with leaving the single market / customs union.
> 
> I'm not a little bit upset that we are leaving the EU; I am a lot upset. Not because of the potential state of the country and the economy when we leave, but because of what the vote told me about some of the British people.
> 
> I think I will end my responses to you from now on for various reasons, and simply close by pointing out that your last paragraph is, I'm afraid, largely nonsense.


I thought my last paragraph was a positive stance for the UK as the UK will be seeking its own trade deals separate from the EU is correct isn't it and the UK is open for business isn't it and not inward thinking but outward looking? Sorry if that offended you but it's the truth isn't it but as you are a remainer anything positive you read or hear you reject anyway? Meanwhile other remainers have accepted that the UK is on course to look after itself instead of being nannied by the EU. The only nonescene there is, is those that refuse to accept that Brexit is happening and they argue about everything that surrounds the UK's potential success outside of the EU.

My last paragraph said this:
_The UK will be seeking its own trade deals separate from the EU and you see that remainers are scared the UK may actually succeed outside the EU. We are already the world's leading economy oh economists and so called experts forecasted this wrong didn't they. The UK saw growth accelerate rapidly in the six months after the referendum which shows the UK is open for business and outward thinking not inward looking like the EU._

Don't worry I am not offended that you wish to no longer respond to me it's clear we have different opinions on things. I am prepared to stand up to what I believe in but I have obviously cast doubt in what you believe for you to back down.

The UK will be fine outside the EU and will grow faster than the EU with trade deals as it won't have to seek approval from 27 other countries to strike these deals. Remainers are scared that the UK may succeed with this and call it nonescene because they refuse to accept that the UK is doing the right thing leaving the EU.

The proof is there that the UK economy has not stagnanted but is instead out performing other countries on the world stage. I would worry if the economy wasn't growing but it is growing. The pound may have slumped but that doesn't mean anything but you don't seem to grasp that. The UK markets are performing exceptionally well and have been the highest in recent months than they have ever been in fact breaking records since the markets started keeping records.

Yes negotiations haven't begun yet but the UK is going through a period of stability so why isn't this favoured by remainers?


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> Sounds good doesn't it, and you believe what she says


:Hilarious It always tickles me they believe confirmed liars like May & Johnson but not experts LOL.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> :Hilarious It always tickles me they believe confirmed liars like May & Johnson *but not experts LOL*.



Of course experts are never wrong (me being sarcastic) or lie. Here's the proof they do get things wrong and lie:

*Chief economist of Bank of England admits errors in Brexit forecasting*
the economist said the profession needed to adapt to regain the trust of the public and politicians.
https://theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/05/chief-economist-of-bank-of-england-admits-errors?client=ms-android-motorola

*If They Tell You They Predicted The Financial Crisis, They're Lying*
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2013/10/08/if-they-tell-you-they-predicted-the-financial-crisis-theyre-lying/?client=ms-android-motorola

*Economists have a century of failure behind them. No wonder they back Remain*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...o-wonder-they/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola

*The OECD, the IMF, the Treasury, Osborne. How the experts got it wrong on the aftermath of a Leave vote.*
http://www.conservativehome.com/the...nt-economic-disaster-have-been-disproved.html

*Experts get it wrong again by failing to predict Trump victory*
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ecasters-recession?client=ms-android-motorola

*Why experts get it wrong: being knowledgeable about a subject implants false memories*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...a-subject-imp/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola








*Why the Experts Get Everything Wrong*
http://bigthink.com/politeia/why-the-experts-get-everything-wrong.amp?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> LIVE: PM Theresa May speaks to Sophy Ridge on Sunday


Whole new trend #speaklikemay















Lol.
As to experts: if they want to keep being employed they should not say much against Brexit... Unless happy to hand in their resignation like Sir Ivan.

Reminds me those times...only good news and more good news .and many actually believed that we have the best system and the best possible life while the West is rotten...
Just like Kuban with houses literally collapsing, cars falling into rust heaps and still sure all is for the best...

In reality after over thousand years of fighting democratic countries of the West were pulling together.
Russia suffered heavy loses due to sanctions...China kept at bay ..Then cyberwar was lost. Not only in USA.
The same happened in Britain and in EU I am sure.
It is classified and Brexit gov will not publish but enough comes about fat Tory donors heavily courted by Russian megarich...
Pity many British people do not think that their little island is a part of Europe and the world and it matters.

When some of you realise whom it actually benefits it would be too late.

Brexit will benefit some. Like @Satori maybe?
Will not benefit democracy, human rights, animal rights and our daily life.
Will not benefit health care, education or social security.
Will benefit maybe some shareholders. Not necessarily British.
China in charge of your nuclear power? Gas grid bought out?

How are you going to keep Scotland, Northern Ireland happy?

How would you managed to protect Falklands and Gibraltar?
Brexit is not good for anyone but Russia and China. 
And corporations that get Nissan style deals...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Whole new trend #speaklikemay
> View attachment 296782
> View attachment 296783
> 
> Lol.


Lol
Watch her interview the programme is on post 3397 on here. She had plenty to say but is going to lay out her Brexit plans in the coming weeks. She did give a vague idea of what Brexit will look like if you listen to the interview that being we are leaving the EU and will have a relationship with our friendly European neighbours outside the EU.

Here's the link to the interview:


stockwellcat said:


> PM on Sophie Ridge Show.


The interview Sophie, Ridge done with the residents of Boston is not on the above interview but was interesting to watch and hear there opinions.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Lol
> Watch her interview the programme is on post 3397 on here. She had plenty to say but is going to lay out her Brexit plans in the coming weeks. She did give a vague idea of what Brexit will look like if you listen to the interview that being we are leaving the EU and will have a relationship with our friendly European neighbours outside the EU.
> 
> Here's the link to the interview:
> 
> The interview Sophie, Ridge done with the residents of Boston is not on the above interview but was interesting to watch and hear there opinions.


Oh..the one where she denies NHS is in crisis?
And promise great deals with EU?
Both equally true.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh..the one she denies NHS is in crisis?


I thought we were talking about Brexit not the NHS?

I am not denying myself they are in crisis but I have not noticed any changes in NHS services in my area so not have experienced any such crisis. If people listened to advice to stay at home or go to the Pharmacist or GP instead of turning up to A&E because they have a cough, cold, flu that was advertised on TV or when they are drunk not to go to A&E then the NHS wouldn't be in such a mess it's called abusing the services. The NHS is always over stretched this time of year as well.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I thought we were talking about Brexit not the NHS?
> 
> I am not denying myself they are in crisis but I have not noticed any changes in NHS services in my area so not have experienced any such crisis. If people listened to advice to stay at home or go to the Pharmacist or GP instead of turning up to A&E because they have a cough, cold, flu that was advertised on TV or when they are drunk not to go to A&E then the NHS wouldn't be in such a mess it's called abusing the services. The NHS is always over stretched this time of year as well.


For many flu can be deadly. 
Another thing is work. You need doctor's certificate right? If you cannot come?
I have to present one for every day I miss.
Luckily when I had flu I was on my leave...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> For many flu can be deadly.
> Another thing is work. You need doctor's certificate right? If you cannot come?
> I have to present one for every day I miss.


The advice given is to go to the Pharmacist and GP first and stay at home to recover. It's common sense. The GP will give you a medical certificate if you need one to stay off work if you are unwell.

So how would you classify the many drunk people that clogged up A&E services, being drunk isn't life threatening to go to A&E. People are deliberately going to A&E via ambulance drunk to sober up and nothing else and then when asked to leave are abusing NHS staff.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> I thought we were talking about Brexit not the NHS?
> 
> I am not denying myself they are in crisis but I have not noticed any changes in NHS services in my area so not have experienced any such crisis. *If people listened to advice to stay at home or go to the Pharmacist or GP instead of turning up to A&E because they have a cough, cold, flu that was advertised on TV or when they are drunk not to go to A&E then the NHS wouldn't be in such a mess it's called abusing the services.* The NHS is always over stretched this time of year as well.


If only it was as simple as that.

The problem is not enough *funding* and a *shortage* of* Doctors and Nurses and Beds.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> If only it was as simple as that.
> 
> The problem is not enough *funding* and a *shortage* of* Doctors and Nurses and Beds.*


The shortage of Doctors and Nurses must vary from area to area because there isn't much of a shortage were I am. Regarding funding this is a tetchy subject I know but the lack of funding is partly to do with mismanagement by the NHS and poor management it's not entirely the Governments fault the NHS are in a financial mess.


----------



## Jonescat

@cheekyscrip I think that here people must give their employer a doctor's 'fit note' (sometimes called a 'sick note') if they're off sick for more than 7 days in a row (including non-working days). You can self certify for a week first.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> If only it was as simple as that.
> 
> The problem is not enough *funding* and a *shortage* of* Doctors and Nurses and Beds.*


Sending EU nurses and doctors away will help with that no end...plus weak pound is so enticing


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Sending EU nurses and doctors away will help with that no end...plus weak pound is so enticing


All the weak pound is going to do is make them cheap labour. Think about what you're saying.

The Euro was weak for a very long time when it first entered into the trading market. The pound wasn't that weak on Friday £1 equals €1.18 I know it probably will have changed since. Let me go and have a look.

I am back. On XE.com it is currently £1 equals €1.17 this will change again when the markets open tomorrow. I said this before you are focusing on the wrong thing, currencies change daily. It's the markets you need to be looking at which are going up in the UK. The markets closed at a record high in the UK at close of business on Friday.


----------



## Jonescat

If I have an event on a Sunday night, as a result of which I can not drive, it means I have to call an ambulance and travel 20 miles (local taxi drivers won't go one way on a Sunday because they won't get a fare back). Something simple say like a chemical splash in the eyes.

But hey, there isn't a shortage where you are, so everyone is ok. Fine.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> If I have an event on a Sunday night, as a result of which I can not drive, it means I have to call an ambulance and travel 20 miles (local taxi drivers won't go one way on a Sunday because they won't get a fare back). Something simple say like a chemical splash in the eyes.
> 
> But hey, there isn't a shortage where you are, so everyone is ok. Fine.


That's a different situation as you splashed chemicals in your eyes.

It's called using your common sense as to what is and isn't an emergency.

Having a cold, cough, being drunk, scraping your knee or elbow, do not require A&E admittance.


----------



## Jonescat

My point was more about the reduction in facilities and their opening hours as part of a general reducing costs.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> All the weak pound is going to do is make them cheap labour. Think about what you're saying.
> 
> The Euro was weak for a very long time when it first entered into the trading market. The pound wasn't that weak on Friday £1 equals €1.18 I know it probably will have changed since. Let me go and have a look.
> 
> I am back. On XE.com it is currently £1 equals €1.17 this will change again when the markets open tomorrow. I said this before you are focusing on the wrong thing, currencies change daily. It's the markets you need to be looking at which are going up in the UK. The markets closed at a record high in the UK at close of business on Friday.


That will make them cheap labour? Obviously not. They will expect to be paid no less than before referendum or will go somewhere else?
Like EU? Doctors and nurses are in demand. So think what you say...
Plus add that you might meet with some small or big unpleasantness, your children too, just for being foreigners and speaking their language in public?

On another note..interesting points from an expert who is from outside EU and UK...


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> I don't understand which part of we are leaving the EU remainers don't understand.


Oh, I think you'll find that they understand quite well. Remoaners wish you to believe that they are stupid but I don't buy it for an instant. The nonsense they spout is driven not by idiocy but by mendacity.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> That will make them cheap labour? Obviously not. They will expect to be paid no less than before referendum or will go somewhere else?
> Like EU? Doctors and nurses are in demand. So think what you say...
> Plus add that you might meet with some small or big unpleasantness, your children too, just for being foreigners and speaking their language in public?
> 
> On another note..interesting points from an expert who is from outside EU and UK...
> View attachment 296792


Again he's allowed an opinion.

My experts post wasn't just aimed at so called experts from the EU. Oh and did you read the links about when experts have been wrong and lied to just scare people.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Again he's allowed an opinion.
> 
> My experts post wasn't just aimed at so called experts from the EU. Oh and did you read the links about when experts have been wrong and lied to just scare people.


How many times governments lied to people?
Or Brexit campaigners?
On the buses?
To just deny it?
BJ is a big liar. Cynical one. Farage is another. And so on...
If people voted for Brexit against austerity they would have more for decades.
If they thought UK would be richer ir stronger then that is not going to happen any time soon...maybe not in our lifetime if ever...


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Unless happy to hand in their resignation like Sir Ivan.


Bernard Jenkin tells anti-Brexit civil servants to take 'honourable option' & resign | Politics | News | Daily Express


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> How many times governments lied to people?
> Or Brexit campaigners?
> On the buses?
> To just deny it?
> BJ is a big liar. Cynical one. Farage is another. And so on...
> If people voted for Brexit against austerity they would have more for decades.
> If they thought UK would be richer ir stronger then that is not going to happen any time soon...maybe not in our lifetime if ever...


Do you know what this sounds like?

Come off it @cheekyscrip you know and I know Cameron was a liar and his best buddy Osbourne, Merkel, Hollande, Junker, the President of the USA lies etc, etc so your point is?

This is getting repetitive as we have been over and over Brexit so many times, so we are about to go around in a big circle again discussing and debating what has already been debated.

The EU isn't exactly rich itself and as said before they aren't the biggest trader in the World although they like to think they are, the Commonwealth is larger than the EU and so is China and America. The remainers are scared the UK will strike a deal with America and China first because we won't have 27 other countries to consult before striking a trade deal with them when we leave the EU. Read back a page or two and you will see what I previously posted on this and how quickly the UK can strike trade deals outside of the EU and grow as a global trading partner. I am not going to repeat myself to repeat myself every few pages or posts on this thread anymore.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Do you know what this sounds like?
> 
> Come off it @cheekyscrip you know and I know Cameron was a liar and his best buddy Osbourne, Merkel, Hollande, Junker, the President of the USA lies etc, etc so your point is?
> 
> This is getting repetitive as we have been over and over Brexit so many times, so we are about to go around in a big circle again discussing and debating what has already been debated.
> 
> The EU isn't exactly rich itself and as said before they aren't the biggest trader in the World although they like to think they are, the Commonwealth is larger than the EU and so is China and America. The remainers are scared the UK will strike a deal with America and China first because we won't have 27 other countries to consult before striking a trade deal with them when we leave the EU. Read back a page or two and you will see what I previously posted on this and how quickly the UK can strike trade deals outside of the EU and grow as a global trading partner. I am not going to repeat myself to repeat myself every few pages or posts on this thread anymore.


That China deal worries me a great deal...Tibet, boiled dogs, human rights...animal welfare...
Really country to open our arms to...
Surely deal with equally nice Russia too?
Best choices to tie our economy to.

More toys with real cat fur.

Shall we get recipes for dog stew?
As nation of animal lovers it must feel great.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> That China deal worries me a great deal...Tibet, boiled dogs, human rights...animal welfare...
> Really country to open our arms to...
> Surely deal with equally nice Russia too?
> Best choices to tie our economy to.
> 
> More toys with real cat fur.
> 
> Shall we get recipes for dog stew?
> As nation of animal lovers it must feel great.


India?
Japan?
Australia?
Mexico?
Greenland?
Iceland?
Finland?
Switzerland?
South Korea?
Malaysia?
Saudi Arabia?
Africa?
Pakistan?
New Zealand?
Colombia?
Thailand?

See the world is a bigger place outside of the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Colombia!!! Pakistan!!! Afganistan!!! ( Africa is not a country...so difficult to get a trade deal with continent ...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Colombia!!! Pakistan!!! Afganistan!!! (* Africa is not a country...so difficult to get a trade deal with continent ...*


Not necessarily true, we trade with all European countries through the EU, Europe is a continent. Also America is classed as a continent as well and Australia.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Not necessarily true, we trade with all European countries through the EU, Europe is a continent. Also America is classed as a continent as well and Australia.


All European countries as EU? Certainly not. Americas are two. 
One of them includes Panama..the other starts there...
Never heard about North America deal or South America deal?
And they accuse TM of muddled thinking!!!

And until UK leaves EU is not allowed by EU rules to make any deals?
If you do not get it.. Fox dies nit get it either.
EU countries cannot do outside deals. Only as a bloc.
UK signed it as a EU member.
So Leave first..We cannot hold EU ransom by striking any deals before we go...
Funny where it leaves us...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> All European countries as EU? Certainly not. Americas are two.
> One of them includes Panama..the other starts there...
> Never heard about North America deal or South America deal?
> And they accuse TM of muddled thinking!!!
> 
> And until UK leaves EU is not allowed by EU rules to make any deals?
> If you do not get it.. Fox dies nit get it either.
> EU countries cannot do outside deals. Only as a bloc.
> UK signed it as a EU member.
> So Leave first..We cannot hold EU ransom by striking any deals before we go...
> Funny where it leaves us...


We leave within two years so can sign up trade deals in 24 months time. We cannot negoatiate a trade deal with the EU until we leave either but can carry on trading with them until we leave and after we leave. The UK is allowed to line up trade deals there is nothing saying we cannot do this as long as we don't negotiate or sign any trade deals within the 2 year negotiation period. As soon as 24 months are up and we have either agreed a departure deal with the EU or not then we can sign as many as we like. We negotiate a trade deal with the EU after we leave, oh didn't you know that's when WTO rules kick in as we aren't allowed to make any trade deals until after the two year negotiation period for our departure from the EU with the EU.

Yes I have heard of NAFTA (North America Free Trade Agreement which includes the United States, Canada and Mexico and came into effect in 1994 and is one of the worlds largest free trade zones http://www.naftanow.org) it drove most of the businesses south of the border to Mexico because it was cheaper for them to manufacture from there. America/USA or Americas is still a continent and we do currently trade with them, McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, Apple etc etc through the EU like all other European countries do.

Australia is a country and a continent and is also part of the region of Oceania.

If Liam Fox died it wouldn't make any difference as his departmentaI deputy would take over his job. I don't understand what you meant by that.

No muddled thinking here. Leave means leave not keeping one foot in the EU and one foot out of the EU. I think it's yourself and other remainers on here that have muddled thinking as you can't grasp we aren't leaving Europe we are leaving the EU and they are two entirely separate entities. Plus we'll still continue trading with the EU after the negotiations have taken place with or without a deal.

It's in the EU's interests just as much as the UK's to ensure a deal is struck surrounding the UK leaving the EU and a trade deal.

The UK is only exercising it's right to leave the EU under EU rules enshrined in the EU treaties just like any other country in the EU is allowed to leave the bloc as well.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Hun...you mentioned Finland as one on your long non EU list...sorry to disappoint you, but it is in EU since 1995.
But alas you are no expert...
Americas are two continents not one. 
We have no chance for trade deal with neither Africa or Asia as such...
North America is more than Canada, USA and Mexico...
But obviously as no expert you might not heard about those other countries...
Fox was an example because just like you was talking about trade deals lined up till experts enlightened him that it is not so....
How you " line up" with no talks which are considered negotiations really?
India already demanded working visas..80 k if remember rightly...
No one promised less immigration after Brexit just " control". 
Those 2.8 mln muslim in UK did not come from EU... 

TM promises border control? But they are not open and UK is not part of Schengen Agreement?
Thought our borders are controlled and if we want more patrols EU does not stop us?
We have full rights to check all cars, all passengers, all cargo, patrol the sea...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Hun...*you mentioned Finland as one on your long non EU list...*sorry to disappoint you, but it is in EU since 1995.


I know that was just checking you was error checking as well


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I know that was just checking you was error checking as well


Worth of mayspeak!!! Lol!!!
And you thoroughly tested my geography too...
Hope I passed...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Worth of mayspeak!!! Lol!!!
> And you thoroughly tested my geography too...
> *Hope I passed.*..


Kind of


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> TM promises border control? But they are not open and UK is not part of Schengen Agreement?
> Thought our borders are controlled and if we want more patrols EU does not stop us?
> We have full rights to check all cars, all passengers, all cargo, patrol the sea...


Absolutely right. Besides, where's the money going to come from to employ extra staff anyway?, unless they believe the existing staff can cope with EU citizens having to fill out forms and the likes as none EU/EEA citizens already have to.

They'll be the border to consider between NI and the Republic too of course....


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Worth of mayspeak!!! Lol!!!
> And you thoroughly tested my geography too...
> Hope I passed...


Finland was a typo error it was meant to be Norway. Norway is in the EEA


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Finland was a typo error it was meant to be Norway. Norway is in the EEA


And one foot in EU as they pay fir access to single market.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely right. Besides, where's the money going to come from to employ extra staff?, not forgetting the border needed between NI and the Republic of course.....


There won't be a border between NI and the Republic of Ireland. There is a bilateral agreement in place with the Republic of Ireland since 1923 (I think it is) and the UK which isn't up for negotiation during the EU negotiations.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here it is it's called the Common Travel Area agreement:

The *Common Travel Area* (CTA) (Irish: _Comhlimistéar Taistil_) is an open borders area comprising Ireland, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands. Based on legally non-binding arrangements, the internal borders of the Common Travel Area (CTA) are subject to minimal or non-existent border controls and can normally be crossed by British and Irish citizens with minimal identity documents, with certain exceptions.[1][2] The maintenance of the CTA involves considerable co-operation on immigration matters between the British and Irish authorities.

In 2014, the British and Irish governments began a trial system of mutual recognition of each other's visas for onward travel within the Common Travel area. As of June 2016 it applies to Chinese and Indian nationals and is limited to certain visa types. Other nationalities and those holding non-qualifying visas still require separate visas to visit both countries and may not avail of a transit visa exception if wishing to transit though the UK to Ireland.

Since 1997, the Irish government has imposed systematic identity checks on air passengers coming from the United Kingdom and selective checks on sea passengers, and occasional checks on land crossings.

You may want to keep up to speed by reading this: https://www.freemovement.org.uk/brexit-briefing-impact-on-common-travel-area-and-the-irish/ under EU protocol 19, 20 and 21 the UK and Republic of Ireland will be able to continue having a separate deal away from the EU by having an open border with Northern Ireland because they are not part of the Schegen Zone plus the Common Travel Area (CTA) was in existence well before the EC, EEC and EU was ever thought of.

_At the EU level, these arrangements between the UK and Republic of Ireland are reflected in three Protocols annexed to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU.
*Protocol 19, *which is concerned with the Schengen open borders zone, provides that the Republic of Ireland and the UK are not automatically covered by Schengen rules, or by proposals to develop them. 
*Protocol 20 *allows the UK and Republic of Ireland to 'continue to make arrangements between themselves relating to the movement of persons between their territories ('the Common Travel Area')'. 
*Protocol 21 *provides that each of the UK and the Republic of Ireland may unilaterally choose to opt in to immigration or asylum legislation other than Schengen rules, or to discussion of proposals relating to such legislation*.
*
In the event of UK decision to withdraw, it is to be presumed that the underlying reasons for the common travel area would continue to apply. The political consensus in support of the common travel area in Northern Ireland would probably be an especially significant factor.[vii]

Continuing with common travel area arrangements also appears to be compatible with EU law. There is no obvious legal reason why the Republic of Ireland should not retain the benefit of Protocols 19 and 20 after UK exit, allowing it to maintain special co-operation arrangements with the UK outside the Schengen zone._


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> And one foot in EU as they pay fir access to single market.


Just checking again


----------



## cheekyscrip

Funny that May gave interview on Sky not BBC?
Slight favouritism of Sunny Rupert Murdoch?
Wish to know who works for whom...

RM...the PM maker....also famous for hacking into dead girl's phone...misleading investigation and causing more torment for her family.
All forgiven.
Now leading the nation....Sky is not the limit...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny that May gave interview on Sky not BBC?
> Slight favouritism of Sunny Rupert Murdoch?
> Wish to know who works for whom...
> 
> RM...the PM maker....also famous for hacking into dead girl's phone...misleading investigation and causing more torment for her family.
> All forgiven.
> Now leading the nation....Sky is not the limit...


What's wrong with Sky News 

Selective reporting, well selective on negative news.

Eamonn Holmes loved reporting about the referendum and it was clear he was a remain supporter. When the results were announced he disappeared for a week or so and now he's left  Everytime they went to report something about the leave campaign they quickly brushed over the the reports.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> What's wrong with Sky News
> 
> Selective reporting, well selective on negative news.
> 
> Eamonn Holmes loved reporting about the referendum and it was clear he was a remain supporter. When the results were announced he disappeared for a week or so and now he's left


Rupert Murdoch.


----------



## Jonescat

Coincidentally this has just turned up in my inbox....

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/c...utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=blast2017-01-08

*Media baron Rupert Murdoch is trying to take control of Sky TV.* [1] This new power grab will give him even more control over our news - and more power to make politicians to listen to him instead of voters. [2]

We can throw a spanner in the works. *Right now, the government is considering investigating dodgy dealings at Murdoch's newspaper empire.* That includes secret payments to the police. [3] If we can persuade them to launch the investigation, *it'll dig up fresh dirt on Murdoch's shady practices. That will make it harder for the government to agree to Murdoch taking control of Sky.*

*The government is asking the public what they think. Their consultation closes next Tuesday.* [4] If thousands of us sign a huge petition over the weekend it will increase the pressure for the investigation to go ahead.

*Please can you sign the petition to ask the government to get to the bottom of Murdoch's dodgy dealings?* It'll only take a couple of seconds:
https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/c...utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=blast2017-01-08

*If Murdoch takes control of Sky, it means more power for the man whose newspapers hacked the phones of police officers, royals and Milly Dowler*, a young girl who was brutally murdered. [5] He'd decide what news is beamed into 22 million homes in the UK. [6]

*Last time Murdoch tried to take over Sky, it was these explosive revelations about phone hacking that scuppered his plans.* [7] He doesn't want that to happen again. That's why his own newspapers are saying that this new investigation shouldn't go ahead. [8] He knows that it could unravel his plans.

*A big petition signed by thousands of us*, including you, will show the government that the British public want this investigation to go ahead. It *could be enough to stop Murdoch's power grab in its tracks*. But we haven't got much time to have our say - the deadline's Tuesday.

So, let's move fast. *Please can you add your name?*

Thanks for being involved,

NOTES:
[1] BBC: 21st Century Fox in bid approach for Sky:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38267199
[2] Rupert Murdoch's media empire already includes The Sun and The Times newspapers, and he regularly uses his position to influence politicians. For example, it was recently revealed that Prime Minister Theresa May paid him a secret visit in New York this September:
The Guardian: Theresa May had private meeting with Rupert Murdoch:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/sep/29/theresa-may-meeting-rupert-murdoch-times-sun
[3] Right now, the government is holding a consultation to decide whether they should proceed with part 2 of the Leveson inquiry and fully investigate Murdoch's newspapers for corruption and improper media practices:
Gov.uk: Consultation of the Leveson inquiry and its implementation:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...on-the-leveson-inquiry-and-its-implementation
[4] See note 3
[5] Wikipedia: Murder of Milly Dowler:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Milly_Dowler
[6] The Daily Mail: One man in control of 22 MILLION households: MPs urge the PM to block Murdoch's £11.2bn Sky takeover bid to seize complete control of a media empire spanning TV networks and newspapers:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-s-bid-Sky-City-revolt-grows-18-5bn-deal.html
[7] The Telegraph: Rupert Murdoch returns for Sky as Fox makes £18.5bn takeover approach:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/12/09/murdoch-returns-sky-fox-makes-new-takeover-approach/
[8] Both The Times and The Sun, newspapers Murdoch owns, have published editorials arguing that the investigation should not go forward:
The Times: New tune, old dance:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/new-tune-old-dance-m3gp8wgvx
The Sun: The Government must act NOW to protect the free press and keep our important investigative journalism alive:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24206...our-important-investigative-journalism-alive/


----------



## cheekyscrip

Sober times!!!








Good night...


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Sending EU nurses and doctors away will help with that no end


That's not going to happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Sober times!!!
> View attachment 296820
> 
> Good night...


£3.10. That's cheap.
Pints are £3.60+ where I am and in Manchester £3.80 (that's what I paid last year when I was in Manchester), that's why I buy Bombardier cans 4 for £4 or Stella cans 6 for £6 or 4 x Stella 4% cans £4, 2 bottles of wine £9 from Iceland or 2 bottles of wine from Cost Cutter £5 works out alot cheaper than going to the pub.


----------



## Honeys mum

c

Surely that's not a bad thing cheekyscript . See the article below , maybe it will help the NHS save money. Bearing in mind these are the figures quoted in 2014.

NHS Alcohol-Related Admissions Near '10 Million'


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> *Surely that's not a bad thing cheekyscript . See the article below , maybe it will help the NHS save money. Bearing in mind these are the figures quoted in 2014.*
> 
> NHS Alcohol-Related Admissions Near '10 Million'


You have a very good point there @Honeys mum but how would the price of alcohol be tackled in the shops because it is cheaper to buy in the shops than the pub?


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> You have a very good point there @Honeys mum but how would the price of alcohol be tackled in the shops because it is cheaper to buy in the shops than the pub?


Sorry stockwellcat, never thought of that, its something we never buy so no idea what it costs in shops
not very often in pubs either.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> Sorry stockwellcat, never thought of that, its something we never buy so no idea what it costs in shops
> not very often in pubs either.


No need to apologise 

It was something that the Government fail to tackle, the price in pubs and clubs may go up but people will just buy from the supermarket or off license were it is alot cheaper. If they put the price up in pubs and clubs shouldn't they put the price up in supermarket and off license as well? Just a thought.


----------



## Jonescat

Surely that depends whether they want income from tax or reduced problems with alcohol? Last year the amount of beer sold in offsales passed that sold in licenced premises for the first time. It will be interesting to see if Scotland ever manages to get the minimum unit price through, and if so, what effect that has on their pub trade.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> Surely that's not a bad thing cheekyscript . See the article below , maybe it will help the NHS save money.]


Funny how the EU is blamed for the nanny state. This is clear proof otherwise.

Any hikes in beer pricing will be immediately unpopular.

Not everyone is a "binge drinker" as portrayed in the media.

I'm not going to debate this further, just showing the EU can't be blamed for such "nanny state" ideas.


----------



## Honeys mum

For all you remainers. A 100 reasons to embrace Brexit video.(if its worked that is)


----------



## stockwellcat.

Quote 1:
In her first interview of the New Year, Ms May said *Britain could not expect to hold onto "bits" of its EU membership when it leaves*, suggesting that Britain will end up withdrawing from the single market and then trying to quickly negotiate a free trade deal with the European Union.

-------
Quote 2:
The big European nations have so far been clear - you cannot have free movement of goods and services without free movement of people.

As far as Ms May is concerned, the days of free movement between the EU and the UK will soon be over.

"I've consistently said that the referendum vote was a vote for us to change that freedom of movement, it was a vote for us to bring control into our immigration system for people coming from the European Union," Ms May said.

"There's a variety of ways in which that can be done but I'm clear that that is part of what we need to deliver."

When pressed by Sky News' Sophy Ridge whether she would prioritise controlling immigration over access to the single market, Ms May said she would not try and "keep bits of membership of the EU".

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...membership-in-brexit:-may/8170436?pfmredir=sm


----------



## KittenKong

Embrace Brexit? I don't know if this was an attempt to wind up remainers or not.

I only saw a couple of seconds of this nauseating video before having to turn it off to avoid vomiting. Nothing but nationalist pap. I find such propaganda vulgar and offensive personally speaking.

People will try and convert you to their way of thinking but things like this only strengthens my support for the EU, not weaken it.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Embrace Brexit? I don't know if this was an attempt to wind up remainers or not.


Not by me it wasn't. How silly of me, I thought it might just make you smile.


----------



## Honeys mum

Spain admits it will be 'difficult' to get hands on Gibraltar despite post-Brexit threats | Politics | News | Daily Express

Hopefully some good news for you cheekyscript.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> People will try and convert you to their way of thinking but things like this only strengthens my support for the EU, not weaken it.


I don't need anything to convert me, I'm quite capable of making my own mind up.


----------



## rona

Honeys mum said:


> For all you remainers. A 100 reasons to embrace Brexit video.(if its worked that is)


Very tongue in cheek a few of those, especially the one that says "she would have wanted it"


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Quote 1:
> In her first interview of the New Year, Ms May said *Britain could not expect to hold onto "bits" of its EU membership when it leaves*, suggesting that Britain will end up withdrawing from the single market and then trying to quickly negotiate a free trade deal with the European Union.
> 
> -------
> Quote 2:
> The big European nations have so far been clear - you cannot have free movement of goods and services without free movement of people.
> 
> As far as Ms May is concerned, the days of free movement between the EU and the UK will soon be over.


So, it solely comes down to what the EU are willing to offer us as a deal then, then.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38555673

Here we go again.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38555673
> 
> Here we go again.....
> View attachment 296879


And tomorrow it will be the pound recovers from its slump as Theresa May says no hard Brexit or soft Brexit.

_Well, I'm tempted to say the people who are getting it wrong are those who print things saying I'm talking about a hard Brexit, [that] it's absolutely inevitable it's a hard Brexit. I don't accept the terms hard or soft Brexit. What we are doing is going to get an ambitious, good, the best possible deal for the United Kingdom in terms of trading with, and operating within, the single European market. But it will be a new relationship because we won't be members of the EU any longer. We will be outside the European Union, and therefore we will be negotiating a new relationship across not just trading but other areas with the European Union.
_
http://theguardian.com/politics/blo...fied-politics-live?client=ms-android-motorola

Now I am confused as she said yesterday:

_"I've consistently said that the referendum vote was a vote for us to change that freedom of movement,it was a vote for us to bring control into our immigration system for people coming from the European Union," Ms May said.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...membership-in-brexit:-may/8170436?pfmredir=sm_

And today she wants access to the Single Market. The EU have told her that the 4 freedoms of movement have to be accepted otherwise no access to the single market and yesterday she said:

_Ms May said Britain could not expect to hold onto "bits" of its EU membership when it leaves_ and now she wants to cherry pick.

Now if you are confused, I am confused and can see why the stock market and currency markets are confused.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Now I am confused as she said yesterday:
> 
> _"I've consistently said that the referendum vote was a vote for us to change that freedom of movement,it was a vote for us to bring control into our immigration system for people coming from the European Union," Ms May said._
> 
> And today she wants access to the Single Market. The EU have told her that the 4 freedoms of movement have to be accepted otherwise no access to the single market and yesterday she said:
> 
> _Ms May said Britain could not expect to hold onto "bits" of its EU membership when it leaves_ and now she wants to cherry pick.
> 
> Now if you are confused, I am confused and can see why the stock market and currency markets are confused.


I'm not confused. This is only what the EU have been saying all along. If we want to stay in the single market and enjoy free trade, then we have to have free movement of EU citizens in and out of the UK too. It is unclear whether or not UK citizens would be granted free movement in the EU in return, as far as I am aware anyway.

If we don't want to allow free movement of EU citizens in and out of the UK, then we can't be a part of the single market and have free movement of goods either. That means the UK import/export process defaults to old style border checks, including much more paperwork paperwork and formal testing of all shipments to the EU to make sure they meet EU standards (up to 10 days delay for lab tests, import duties paid for by the importer) etc. until such a time as we manage to negotiate arrangements similar to those they have with Australia and China. The EU get to pick all the interim conditions to impose, if my understanding is correct, and I think we can agree they have no incentive to not heavily favour the EU.



stockwellcat said:


> And tomorrow it will be the pound recovers from its slump as Theresa May says no hard Brexit or soft Brexit.


So, no Brexit then...?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> *So, no Brexit then...? *


Brexit will be happening but TM seems to like throwing confusion about what exactly she envisages what Brexit means to the Government. I guess she doesn't want to say Hard Brexit at this stage so she doesn't upset the remainers and Nicola Sturgeon.

This is what she said today that throws confusion into the picture:
_*" I don't accept the terms hard or soft Brexit. What we are doing is going to get an ambitious, good, the best possible deal for the United Kingdom in terms of trading with, and operating within, the single European market."*_

Yesterday she said this:
_*"I've consistently said that the referendum vote was a vote for us to change that freedom of movement, it was a vote for us to bring control into our immigration system for people coming from the European Union.*" _


----------



## cheekyscrip

No matter how jolly Brexiters can be falling pound will hike the prices of raw materials, oil , transport...
Profits for shareholders cannot be squeezed forever or values of companies would just crash on the market.
Everyone would start getting rid of their shares?
Noone will be willing to buy unless at much reduced price and imagine how that affects investment.
We talking money not sentiments.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 296890
> View attachment 296891
> 
> No matter how jolly Brexiters can be falling pound will hike the prices of raw materials, oil , transport...
> Profits for shareholders cannot be squeezed forever or values of companies would just crash on the market.
> Everyone would start getting rid of their shares?
> Noone will be willing to buy unless at much reduced price and imagine how that affects investment.
> We talking money not sentiments.


Well the businesses based in London aren't moving on mass out of the UK. Looked pretty busy in the City this morning. Oh I forgot the Tube Strike 

I don't know how the remainers view this but businesses aren't packing up and leaving as you wish they do. They interviewed a fashion designer this morning and he said his business is booming in the UK since the referendum and announced Vivian Westwood is moving back to the UK as well. They also interviewed a restaurant owner who owns a chain of restaurants around the UK and he said business is doing exceptionally well and he imports food from Italy, his restaurants are doing that well he is offering 50% off at lunch times in his restaurants (Restaurants in Manchester, Birmingham, London and Bristol).


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Brexit will be happening but TM seems to like throwing confusion about what exactly she envisages what Brexit means to the Government. I guess she doesn't want to say Hard Brexit at this stage so she doesn't upset the remainers and Nicola Sturgeon.
> 
> This is what she said today that throws confusion into the picture:
> _*" I don't accept the terms hard or soft Brexit. What we are doing is going to get an ambitious, good, the best possible deal for the United Kingdom in terms of trading with, and operating within, the single European market."*_
> 
> Yesterday she said this:
> _*"I've consistently said that the referendum vote was a vote for us to change that freedom of movement, it was a vote for us to bring control into our immigration system for people coming from the European Union.*" _


It's not really that confusing. It appears to be simply politician speak for "We can't stop free movement of EU citizens across our borders if we want free single market trade with the EU and they aren't budging on that like we hoped they might." As the EU get to dictate the terms of Brexit, that isn't really surprising, though, is it?

There is nothing about the quote from yesterday that says 'and I am committing to doing this' as far as I can see, although I admit I haven't read the rest of the speech.


----------



## Honeys mum

The housing market seems to be doing well also.

UK house price average surges by £4,000 in December | Business | The Guardian


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> The housing market seems to be doing well also.
> 
> UK house price average surges by £4,000 in December | Business | The Guardian


Because houses are more expensive?
Or it reflects weaker pound?
Definitely good time for foreigners who want to buy property for rent etc...but it also means British buyers who earn in pounds pay more...with stagnation of wages and job market plus general price rise it must be such good news for first time buyers...
With more expensive materials and transport I expect houses' prices going up even more. More good news for you then.
Cars are getting more expensive too. Hurrah!


----------



## Satori

Honeys mum said:


> For all you remainers. A 100 reasons to embrace Brexit video.(if its worked that is)


Lol. "High heat toasters"' who knew? That's why all my toasters are shite then, it was those bloody federalists mucking about again. They should be called bread warmers nowadays. Surely even the most ardent remoaner can see the error of their ways now and embrace, with the rest if us, the sun-lit uplands of glorious freedom and crispy toast.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Come on remainers you know you really want Brexit.








Gone take it and accept we are leaving the EU


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Definitely good time for foreigners who want to buy property for rent


Its a lot harder to Buy to rent now.



cheekyscrip said:


> it must be such good news for first time buyers..


Developers have to build more affordable house now for first time buyers.



cheekyscrip said:


> I expect houses' prices going up even more. More good news for you then.


Yes if you are thinking of selling.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> For all you remainers. A 100 reasons to embrace Brexit video.(if its worked that is)


Love it. One of best Brexit parodies.
Totally showing up Brexit mentality and Brexit urban legends...
Thank you. Good laugh.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> That's not going to happen.


Hmmm....what if they can actually count ...and compare pound to their currency? 
Not so appealing?
Before referendum nurse could earn about £2000 in UK and about 3000 euros in some EU countries...she can still earn the same in UK...£2000 and 3000euros...it means UK pays much less?


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Love it. One of best Brexit parodies.





cheekyscrip said:


> Thank you. Good laugh


Yes, I thought it was brilliant, and so much of it true as well.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> It's not really that confusing. It appears to be simply politician speak for "We can't stop free movement of EU citizens across our borders if we want free single market trade with the EU and they aren't budging on that like we hoped they might." As the EU get to dictate the terms of Brexit, that isn't really surprising, though, is it?
> 
> There is nothing about the quote from yesterday that says 'and I am committing to doing this' as far as I can see, although I admit I haven't read the rest of the speech.


Oh you do understand political talk then that's good.

I know it isn't really confusing I was just seeing how you interpreted what was said and it is obvious remainers are ignoring the key points of the speeches that have been done so far. I understand political talk as well 

One key point was from the speech yesterday is that the UK cannot pick and choose what it wants so leaving means we are leaving the EU. Another key point you chose to ignore is that the UK wants to control immigration into the UK from the EU. I feel the papers and news agencies interpreted what Theresa May has said so correctly but feel that those that hope to remain some how in the EU after we leave have got it wrong completely. Of course we will remain in Europe and will remain friendly with our European neighbours after we have left the EU. I don't see why we can't still travel to European countries after we have left the EU and yes getting a visa to do so may well have to happen as like other none EU members have to. What is wrong with having to do this?

The UK trade markets are on the up at the moment (Close of business today the FTSE broke another record 7,237.77) and yes the pound has dropped slightly but so far with other slumps in the pound in recent history it has bounced back, I would worry if it didn't bounce back. You will find the pound will also improve when trade deals are struck around the world after we have left the EU. The EU has struggled for a very long time, well since the last financial crash at least and has only just started improving just before the end of 2016.

The UK is heading in the right direction and that is out of the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Yes, I thought it was brilliant, and so much of it true as well.


Yes. Lots of it is true. And quite ironic am afraid. Noir.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Embrace Brexit? I don't know if this was an attempt to wind up remainers or not.
> 
> I only saw a couple of seconds of this nauseating video before having to turn it off to avoid vomiting. Nothing but nationalist pap. I find such propaganda vulgar and offensive personally speaking.
> 
> People will try and convert you to their way of thinking but things like this only strengthens my support for the EU, not weaken it.


Watch it all. Hilarious.
Deffo done by one sarky Remainder....

With rather dark sense of humour...


----------



## stockwellcat.

*New Zealand should scrap EU agricultural talks in favour of trade with post-Brexit Britain, says Kiwi MP*

'Once the UK exits the European Union, a trade deal between New Zealand and the UK should be ready to go immediately'

New Zealand should be looking to build agricultural trade links with post-Brexit Britain rather than starting planned negotiations with the European Union, an influential lawmaker has said.

On Tuesday, New Zealand Prime Minister Bill English and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker will meet to discuss bilateral trade negotiations, which could start in the coming months.

But Fletcher Tabuteau, a trade spokesperson from the anti-immigration New Zealand First party, says his country's premier should be talking to London to avoid "deep trouble" with the competitive European agricultural lobby and EU bureaucracy.

He said: "Any deal with New Zealand would not only have to negotiate the current triple-lock of the Council of the European Union, the European Commission and European Parliament, but negotiations will also have to include 27 national parliaments, and at least five regional and linguistic parliaments in Belgium and at least five upper chambers.

"Given the all-powerful European farmer lobby likes New Zealand like a hole in the back of the head, our deal with EU isn't going to go very far, very fast.

"New Zealand has already started the conversation with the United Kingdom over trade deals, and New Zealand First believes this should be a priority. Once the UK exits the European Union, a trade deal between New Zealand and the UK should be ready to go immediately."

Mr Tabateu was referring to a recent non-binding opinion issued by the European Court of Justice following a deal between the EU and Singapore. The ECJ suggested future trade deals between the EU and external parties might need to be ratified by a range of 38 national and regional parliaments.

Alongside the upcoming talks in Brussels, New Zealand has agreed to commence regular talks with Britain as they prepare to negotiate trade.

New Zealand First currently holds 10 of the 121 seats in the the Kiwi parliament. With a strong Maori base, it has historically been an important power-broker in coalition governments.

The populist, laissez-faire conservatives are currently in opposition to a coalition built around Mr English's centre-right National party.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/new-zealand-scrap-eu-agricultural-talks-trade-post-brexit-britain-kiwi-mp-fletcher-tabuteau-a7517866.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola

Before I get shot down by remainers this was also reported in http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-n...-deep-trouble/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## cheekyscrip

The only problem with Oz - it is in Oz...
CO2 imprint, climate change and all that...oh, transport costs...
If UK only could swap location with Tasmania....


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> The only problem with Oz - it is in Oz...
> CO2 imprint, climate change and all that...oh, transport costs...
> If UK only could swap location with Tasmania....


That's why the EU want a deal with them as well  Junker is on his way over to see the New Zealand PM. Oh but you chose not to read that bit or ignore it  But it's good that we have countries coming forward wishing to trade with the UK when we leave the EU in favour of the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> That's why the EU want a deal with them as well  Junker is on his way over to see the New Zealand PM. Oh but you chose not to read that bit or ignore it  But it's good that we have countries coming forward wishing to trade with the UK when we leave the EU in favour of the EU.


Obviously they want to corner Juncker? All countries outside EU can use UK as a leverage.
Unfortunately also vice versa....
Business is business.
Which will just as destructive for UK as for EU...bit more for UK as a smaller player...
Very good for everyone else though.
Like Oz.

That was the whole idea of trading as a bloc...so they cannot " divide and rule" ..and EU countries do not undercut each other...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Obviously they want to corner Juncker? All countries outside EU can use UK as a leverage.
> Unfortunately also vice versa....
> Business is business.
> Which will just as destructive for UK as for EU...bit more for UK as a smaller player...
> Very good for everyone else though.
> Like Oz.


So negative you are about the UK which you live in. The UK will be favourable because trading with the EU they would have to get authorisation from 27 member states oh and districts making it 38 areas, they wouldn't be able to seal a trade deal easily and this puts countries off trading with the EU. Yes business is business that's what drives the world not just the EU and UK, the more business you have the more successful you will be. The UK will become very attractive to countries outside of the EU because it will be easier to negotiate with the UK than the EU.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> So negative you are about the UK which you live in. The UK will be favourable because trading with the EU they would have to get authorisation from 27 member states oh and districts making it 38 areas, they wouldn't be able to seal a trade deal easily and this puts countries off trading with the EU. Yes business is business that's what drives the world not just the EU and UK, the more business you have the more successful you will be. *The UK will become very attractive to countries outside of the EU because it will be easier to negotiate with the UK than the EU.*


Yes, with years of negotiation we might get a deal. Who knows!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Yes, with years of negotiation we might get a deal. Who knows!


That's why New Zealand have already opened discussion with the the UK 

"New Zealand has already started the conversation with the United Kingdom over trade deals, and New Zealand First believes this should be a priority. Once the UK exits the European Union, a trade deal between New Zealand and the UK should be ready to go immediately."

See article above and we aren't breaking any EU laws or requirements doing this.

UK and New Zealand have been talking since Monday 17th October 2016 by the way:
*Britain and New Zealand agree to start regular trade talks in wake of Brexit*
UK continues courting countries outside the EU on trade but cannot formally agree any deals until it has left the bloc

http://theguardian.com/world/2016/o...-in-wake-of-brexit?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> So negative you are about the UK which you live in. The UK will be favourable because trading with the EU they would have to get authorisation from 27 member states oh and districts making it 38 areas, they wouldn't be able to seal a trade deal easily and this puts countries off trading with the EU. Yes business is business that's what drives the world not just the EU and UK, the more business you have the more successful you will be. The UK will become very attractive to countries outside of the EU because it will be easier to negotiate with the UK than the EU.


Very easy actually. Far too easy. UK will have to accept new deals.
Having crashed into nothing.
That is the part that really worries me...who will get feet under UK table?
If remember rightly UK was nr 9 on money laundering list...under EU fell into 15...

Who will own industry, infrastructure etc...
It is not going to be owned by state neither by British owners? But judging by Sir Phillip Green...not much lost there.

I am genuinely worried about life of ordinary people after Brexit.
Not about the corporations that will take control.

I am not a keyboard warrior.
Just see it as genuine reason to worry to see EU weaker. UK weaker.
Presenting damage to EU as reason for Brexit and something to be proud of? Like un this 100 reason clip..which obviously was ironic.

Why damage to say Poland or Italy should be reason to be so happy?

Back to Iron Curtain would be ideal?
Handing back Baltic States to Putin as Trump promised ( for the help with election).

Yes...I see EU far from perfect and see Democrats shooting themselves in the foot for not providing tighter security.
But hate seeing DT as US President and hate seeing what is happening in UK.
Or Ukraine. Or what may soon happen un Baltic States.
Too far too worry? So was Sarajevo.

I have been in dockyards during strikes, been in Baltic States when they just regained freedom, been in Moscow in the eighties...

I just think beyond being British/Polish/ or Ukrainian or Spanish...
One world. People are the same everywhere and unless they all unite for the best for human.kind and the planet...
That is our only chance.

It grieves me if people think they would be ok on their island and everything round them can go to heck...


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Oh you do understand political talk then that's good.
> 
> I know it isn't really confusing I was just seeing how you interpreted what was said and it is obvious remainers are ignoring the key points of the speeches that have been done so far. I understand political talk as well


Yes, I understand political talk. I choose not to speak it myself, but I understand it extremely well. I have to in order to do what I do for a living 



stockwellcat said:


> One key point was from the speech yesterday is that the UK cannot pick and choose what it wants so leaving means we are leaving the EU.


The whole referendum was about leaving the EU, so how is that breaking news? 



stockwellcat said:


> Another key point you chose to ignore is that the UK wants to control immigration into the UK from the EU. I feel the papers and news agencies interpreted what Theresa May has said so correctly but feel that those that hope to remain some how in the EU after we leave have got it wrong completely.


Oh, I'm not ignoring it. It's just not what I'm talking about.



stockwellcat said:


> Of course we will remain in Europe


Well, yes. That's a matter of Geography, not politics.



stockwellcat said:


> and will remain friendly with our European neighbours after we have left the EU.


I hope so, but that, as ever, is less of a certainty as it's a matter of politics, not geography 



stockwellcat said:


> I don't see why we can't still travel to European countries after we have left the EU and yes getting a visa to do so may well have to happen as like other none EU members have to. What is wrong with having to do this?


I don't think you'll find too many overly bothered about that, aside for those who are annoyed it will put a stop to any on-a-whim . Certainly I'm not, I currently don't even have a passport! The bigger concern is the impact on the movement of goods, not people. And before we go off on the 'WTO Rules' tangent again, import taxes/tarrifs/quotas etc. are only a small part of that concern.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> Yes, I understand political talk. I choose not to speak it myself, but I understand it extremely well. I have to in order to do what I do for a living
> 
> The whole referendum was about leaving the EU, so how is that breaking news?
> 
> Oh, I'm not ignoring it. It's just not what I'm talking about.
> 
> Well, yes. That's a matter of Geography, not politics.
> 
> I hope so, but that, as ever, is less of a certainty as it's a matter of politics, not geography
> 
> I don't think you'll find too many overly bothered about that, aside for those who are annoyed it will put a stop to any on-a-whim . Certainly I'm not, I currently don't even have a passport! The bigger concern is the impact on the movement of goods, not people. And before we go off on the 'WTO Rules' tangent again, import taxes/tarrifs/quotas etc. are only a small part of that concern.


I am sure that holiday in Marbs will be last of our problems after Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Very easy actually. Far too easy. UK will have to accept new deals.
> Having crashed into nothing.
> That is the part that really worries me...who will get feet under UK table?
> If remember rightly UK was nr 9 on money laundering list...under EU fell into 15...
> 
> Who will own industry, infrastructure etc...
> It is not going to be owned by state neither by British owners? But judging by Sir Phillip Green...not much lost there.
> 
> I am genuinely worried about life of ordinary people after Brexit.
> Not about the corporations that will take control.
> 
> I am not a keyboard warrior.
> Just see it as genuine reason to worry to see EU weaker. UK weaker.
> Presenting damage to EU as reason for Brexit and something to be proud of? Like un this 100 reason clip..which obviously was ironic.
> 
> Why damage to say Poland or Italy should be reason to be so happy?
> 
> Back to Iron Curtain would be ideal?
> Handing back Baltic States to Putin as Trump promised ( for the help with election).
> 
> Yes...I see EU far from perfect and see Democrats shooting themselves in the foot for not providing tighter security.
> But hate seeing DT as US President and hate seeing what is happening in UK.
> Or Ukraine. Or what may soon happen un Baltic States.
> Too far too worry? So was Sarajevo.
> 
> I have been in dockyards during strikes, been in Baltic States when they just regained freedom, been in Moscow in the eighties...
> 
> I just think beyond being British/Polish/ or Ukrainian or Spanish...
> One world. People are the same everywhere and unless they all unite for the best for human.kind and the planet...
> That is our only chance.
> 
> It grieves me if people think they would be ok on their island and everything round them can go to heck...


Humanity will never unite to form unity for human kind. Cultures clash and that is evident more than it ever was before in history. Different cultures refuse to integrate that is more evident than ever. Do you know how long it took for the Irish to be accepted in the UK and the troubles stopped in Ireland? This proves how long it takes to accept each other for who they are. Of course history has moved on in the last 20 years in Ireland but there is always the threat everyday from dissident terrorist groups hence why the Northern Irish police are permanently armed by standard and the only reason why they are. This world will never be a perfect place as there will always be a war, poverty, famine or people less well off than others somewhere in the world.

The UK is making the best move in the last 44 years of its EC, EEC and EU history. I know remainers object to this so that's were we'll have to disagree.


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Watch it all. Hilarious.
> Deffo done by one sarky Remainder....


Not intending to appear rude cheekyscrpt but I find it very strange you have plenty to say about anything and everything to do with the leave campaign.
But have nothing to say about this.



Honeys mum said:


> Spain admits it will be 'difficult' to get hands on Gibraltar despite post-Brexit threats | Politics | News | Daily Express
> 
> Hopefully some good news for you cheekyscript.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Humanity will never unite to form unity for human kind. Cultures clash and that is evident more than it ever was before in history. Different cultures refuse to integrate that is more evident than ever. Do you know how long it took for the Irish to be accepted in the UK and the troubles stopped in Ireland? This proves how long it takes to accept each other for who they are. Of course history has moved on in the last 20 years in Ireland but there is always the threat everyday from dissident terrorist groups hence why the Northern Irish police are permanently armed by standard and the only reason why they are. This world will never be a perfect place as there will always be a war, poverty, famine or people less well off than others somewhere in the world.
> 
> The UK is making the best move in the last 44 years of its EC, EEC and EU history. I know remainers object to this so that's were we'll have to disagree.


European nations were constantly at war..Spain, France, England, Germany, Poland, Sweden and so on...
Eventually started pulling together.
Step forward.
Shame it is UK to go backwards now.

Maybe three hundred years ago it was impossible to think about those 28 countries in EU as friends?
Not at war?
Whole continents at peace?
Why not the whole planet?
Actually only one specie to unite.

I can imagine that.
No wars. Preserving our planet a top priority.

Peace between religions.
After all one God, one Absolut..one Force.

Brexit goes against it. Increases divisions , increases hate between people, increases intolerance.

Will we be better for it? 
No. We will not.
Europe will not.
World will not.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> European nations were constantly at war..Spain, France, England, Germany, Poland, Sweden and so on...
> Eventually started pulling together.
> Step forward.
> Shame it is UK to go backwards now.
> 
> Maybe three hundred years ago it was impossible to think about those 28 countries in EU as friends?
> Not at war?
> Whole continents at peace?
> Why not the whole planet?
> Actually only one specie to unite.
> 
> I can imagine that.
> No wars. Preserving our planet a top priority.
> 
> Peace between religions.
> After all one God, one Absolut..one Force.
> 
> Brexit goes against it. Increases divisions , increases hate between people, increases intolerance.
> 
> Will we be better for it?
> No. We will not.
> Europe will not.
> World will not.


I won't bother replying properly to this because if I do it is clear we'll go around in circles


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Not intending to appear rude cheekyscrpt but I find it very strange you have plenty to say about anything and everything to do with the leave campaign.
> But have nothing to say about this.


Lots. But think I bore you all enough with all tha Gibraltar problems. As not many seem to care did not want to carry on.

But if you want to see how Spain 's attitude changes faster than weather wane..look at Cordoba Agreement and see what is left of that.
Not even Institute of Cervantes. They closed that. Claiming as we are Spanish already and it is for outside Spain we should not have it.
Saw many thaws and frosts from Spain...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Lots. But think I bore you all enough with all tha Gibraltar problems. As not many seem to care did not want to carry on.
> 
> But if you want to see how Spain 's attitude changes faster than weather wane..look at Cordoba Agreement and see what is left of that.
> Not even Institute of Cervantes. They closed that. Claiming as we are Spanish already and it is for outside Spain we should not have it.
> Saw many thaws and frosts from Spain...


My friend who has family who lived in Gibraltar along time ago was very surprised that the Gibraltarians voted to remain considering they don't want Spain to take Gibraltar back although the UK aren't prepared to give Gibraltar back to them. Voting leave would have showed they were united with the UK the only thing stopping Gibraltar being Spainish again. It's the UK government standing in the Spainish way of having Gibraltar back.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Watch it all. Hilarious.
> Deffo done by one sarky Remainder....
> 
> With rather dark sense of humour...


If it was fiction it probably would have been hilarious, but unfortunately it's fact which I don't find funny at all.

An excellent cautionary tale is available on Netflix. A German film about Adolf Hitler transferred to the 21st Century and how he utilises the modern media to get his message across.....

Trump would have been a great joke had it not been real life.

To think he'll actually be POTUS is no joke at all.

Neither is Brexit....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> If it was fiction it probably would have been hilarious, but unfortunately it's fact which I don't find funny at all.
> 
> An excellent cautionary tale is available on Netflix. A German film about Adolf Hitler transferred to the 21st Century and how he utilises the modern media to get his message across.....
> 
> Trump would have been a great joke had it not been real life.
> 
> To think he'll actually be POTUS is no joke at all.
> 
> Neither is Brexit.
> View attachment 296923
> View attachment 296924


That film isn't worth watching it got two stars  think I'll give it a miss.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> My friend who has family who lived in Gibraltar along time ago was very surprised that the Gibraltarians voted to remain considering they don't want Spain to take Gibraltar back although the UK aren't prepared to give Gibraltar back for them. Voting leave would have showed they were united with the UK the only thing stopping Gibraltar being Spainish again.


Because we do not live off MOD anymore. We live off tourism, gaming sector, financial services ...MOD is vastly reduced.
With closed frontier our economy is dead as a Dodo.
But alI have explained this zillion of times already...
Without financial services we are like London without the City.
But this sector is EU regulated so if we are out it is gone.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Because we do not live off MOD anymore. We live off tourism, gaming sector, financial services ...MOD is vastly reduced.
> With closed frontier our economy is dead as a Dodo.
> But alI have explained this zillion of times already...
> Without financial services we are like London without the City.
> But this sector is EU regulated so if we are out it is gone.


I thought there was a commercial fishing industry in Gibraltar (I apologise if I got this wrong) and that's why the police always intercept Spanish fisher men in Gibraltar waters or have these incursions stopped now?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I thought there was a commercial fishing industry in Gibraltar (I apologise if I got this wrong) and that's why the police always intercept Spanish fisher men in Gibraltar waters or have these incursions stopped now?


You are wrong. Not fishing except rods.This is nature reserve. . We are trying to protect the dolphins. Spanish use close nets and dregs. Killing all marine life. Turtles. Dolphins. REMEMBER the problem when two years ago we tried to put little reef for fish protection in our waters in the Bay and Spain closed the frontier?
EU eventually forced them to open.
They also wanted to make paid road to the frontier so you had to pay to cross. EU told them they cannot as it affects freedom of movement . Which cannot be charged.

Waving a flag is very well but won't even feed the cat.
Wiki gives some info on our economy.
Financial sector is as important for us as for Channel Islands. If we have the same status as them we would be fine. Or have chance.
That depends on UK only.
That our Chief Minister wants and was told there will be no special status for Gibraltar.
So ok. British. Living off what? If frontier closes. Or if financial sector moves to Malta to stay in EU.

In Franco's era MOD provided most jobs and the rest was as auxiliary to them.
Not now.
Frankly Madrid is not that bothered if 10 k Spanish more are unemployed.

Find out why Sir James Dutton, with outstanding career in the army resigned as Governor of Gibraltar.
That will tell you all about attitude British politicians really have.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> If it was fiction it probably would have been hilarious, but unfortunately it's fact which I don't find funny at all.
> 
> An excellent cautionary tale is available on Netflix. A German film about Adolf Hitler transferred to the 21st Century and how he utilises the modern media to get his message across.....
> 
> Trump would have been a great joke had it not been real life.
> 
> To think he'll actually be POTUS is no joke at all.
> 
> Neither is Brexit.
> View attachment 296923
> View attachment 296924


The funny part is when Brexiters take it in earnest!
Like " No immigrants" followed by "More Indian doctors" and so on...

It is humour noir.
Like Putin electing Trump a president in exchange for Baltic States and Ukraine..aka restoration of former Soviet Union.

Would be funny as in today's episode of Simpsons.

It is reality though.

As if Putin did not have his hands in Brexit... ..
Incredible how gullible people really are.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Boris Johnson says UK 'first in line' for US trade deal*

Boris Johnson has declared Britain is "first in line" for a trade deal with the US, after meeting Donald Trump's senior advisers for talks in Washington.

Barack Obama, who leaves office on 20 January, warned during the EU referendum campaign that Britain would be at the "back of the queue" for a trading agreement if it opted to leave the EU.

But the Foreign Secretary, who once quipped he would not visit parts of New York because of the "real risk of meeting Donald Trump", said: "Clearly, the Trump administration-to-be has a very exciting agenda of change.

"One thing that won't change though is the closeness of the relationship between the US and the UK.

"We are the number two contributor to defence in NATO. We are America's principal partner in working for global security and, of course, we are great campaigners for free trade.

"We hear that we are first in line to do a great free trade deal with the United States. So, it's going to be a very exciting year for both our countries."

http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-says-uk-first-in-line-for-us-trade-deal-10723644

US trade deal and New Zealand trade deal and Australian trade deal when we leave the EU what an exciting start it will be for the UK trading outside of the EU when we have negotiated our departure from the EU with the EU within the next two years.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> *Boris Johnson says UK 'first in line' for US trade deal*
> 
> Boris Johnson has declared Britain is "first in line" for a trade deal with the US, after meeting Donald Trump's senior advisers for talks in Washington.
> 
> Barack Obama, who leaves office on 20 January, warned during the EU referendum campaign that Britain would be at the "back of the queue" for a trading agreement if it opted to leave the EU.
> 
> But the Foreign Secretary, who once quipped he would not visit parts of New York because of the "real risk of meeting Donald Trump", said: "Clearly, the Trump administration-to-be has a very exciting agenda of change.
> 
> "One thing that won't change though is the closeness of the relationship between the US and the UK.
> 
> "We are the number two contributor to defence in NATO. We are America's principal partner in working for global security and, of course, we are great campaigners for free trade.
> 
> "We hear that we are first in line to do a great free trade deal with the United States. So, it's going to be a very exciting year for both our countries."
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-says-uk-first-in-line-for-us-trade-deal-10723644
> 
> US trade deal and New Zealand trade deal and Australian trade deal when we leave the EU what an exciting start it will be for the UK trading outside of the EU when we have negotiated our departure from the EU with the EU within the next two years.


As you say: Boris Johnson said...
In all that gloom you really crack me up....
Remember you mentioning Colombia?
Discount on their products would be nice too...as soon as we LEGALIZE them that is..
EL Chapo is a great authority on prison security and funding health care for the poor...
Might be interested in investment in UK . Maybe we can send him Boris?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> As you say: Boris Johnson said...
> In all that gloom you really crack me up....
> Remember you mentioning Colombia?
> Discount on their products would be nice too...as soon as we LEGALIZE them that is..
> EL Chapo is a great authority on prison security and funding health care for the poor...
> Might be interested in investment in UK . Maybe we can send him Boris?


I love how the minority of remainers who love to put leaving the EU down. We are leaving so get used to it, no one is reversing Brexit infact MPs and Lords and most of the public that voted remain have got behind those that voted leave because they have realised the UK is leaving.

Your (not you personally) negativity is starting to get teadious and ridiculously repetitive and isn't worth replying to anymore.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Bernard Jenkin tells anti-Brexit civil servants to take 'honourable option' & resign | Politics | News | Daily Express


Don't these calls for a civil service purge ring any alarm bells? What are brexiteers scared of? Having their lies & the truth about brexit exposed?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Don't these calls for a civil service purge ring any alarm bells? What are brexiteers scared of? Having their lies & the truth about brexit exposed?


What are minority of remainers who can't accept the UK is leaving the EU scared of, the rest of the remainers have accepted the UK is leaving so yes it is only a small minority that are still complaining?

MPs, Lords and members of the public that voted remain have got behind leaving the EU and only a few people from the remain side refuse to.

Your questions have been answered over and over again on this thread yet you refuse to accept the answers (again not just you personally).

I am not scared of anything as a Brexitier as we are leaving the EU and there is a real chance of success for the UK outside the EU, countries are already in discussions with the UK to quickly strike trade deals when we leave the EU and the UK has not broken any rules by discussing things with other countries as long as we don't sign any trade deals until we leave the EU. Here is a few countries talking to the UK at the moment about striking free trade deals when the UK exits the EU in 2 years time from March 2017: America, Australia and New Zealand. The UK has been having regular talks with Australia and New Zealand since October 2016. Again the UK are not breaking any rules doing this.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> *Boris Johnson says UK 'first in line' for US trade deal*
> 
> Boris Johnson has declared Britain is "first in line" for a trade deal with the US, after meeting Donald Trump's senior advisers for talks in Washington.
> 
> Barack Obama, who leaves office on 20 January, warned during the EU referendum campaign that Britain would be at the "back of the queue" for a trading agreement if it opted to leave the EU.
> 
> But the Foreign Secretary, who once quipped he would not visit parts of New York because of the "real risk of meeting Donald Trump", said: "Clearly, the Trump administration-to-be has a very exciting agenda of change.
> 
> "One thing that won't change though is the closeness of the relationship between the US and the UK.
> 
> "We are the number two contributor to defence in NATO. We are America's principal partner in working for global security and, of course, we are great campaigners for free trade.
> 
> "We hear that we are first in line to do a great free trade deal with the United States. So, it's going to be a very exciting year for both our countries."
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-says-uk-first-in-line-for-us-trade-deal-10723644
> 
> US trade deal and New Zealand trade deal and Australian trade deal when we leave the EU what an exciting start it will be for the UK trading outside of the EU when we have negotiated our departure from the EU with the EU within the next two years.


You do realise any of these deals, IF, indeed they do come to fruition, will be a race to the bottom for everything we value? Do you not care about animal welfare? environmental protection? climate change? workers rights? regulation for pesticides? etc etc etc etc This government see brexit as a vehicle for their laissez faires ideology. The NHS will be finished - FOREVER.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> What are minority of remainers who can't accept the UK is leaving the EU scared of, the rest of the remainers have accepted the UK is leaving so yes it is only a small minority that are still complaining?
> 
> MPs, Lords and members of the public that voted remain have got behind leaving the EU and only a few people from the remain side refuse to.
> 
> Your questions has been answered over and over again on this thread yet you refuse to accept the answers (again not just you personally).
> 
> I am not scared of anything as a Brexitier as we are leaving the EU and there is a real chance of success for the UK outside the EU, countries are already in discussions with the UK to quickly strike trade deals when we leave the EU and the UK has not broken any rules by discussing things with other countries as long as we don't sign any trade deals until we leave the EU. Here is a few countries talking to the UK at the moment about striking free trade deals when the UK exits the EU in 2 years time from March 2017: America, Australia and New Zealand. The UK has been having regular talks with Australia and New Zealand since October 2016. Again the UK are not breaking any rules doing this.


I know you're not scared - you choose to be wilfully blind I was talking about the hard right brexiteer politicians


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You do realise any of these deals, IF, indeed they do come to fruition, will be a race to the bottom for everything we value? Do you not care about animal welfare? environmental protection? climate change? workers rights? regulation for pesticides? etc etc etc etc This government see brexit as a vehicle for their laissez faires ideology. The NHS will be finished - FOREVER.


Really.
Ok it's a race to the bottom is it.
Why then do the EU want a trade deal with New Zealand, Australia and America but these countries have said what is turning them off even entering negotiations with the EU is that fact that there will be 27 countries to negotiate with and 38 other areas have to approve any deals as well.

With the UK there won't be such a problem and it will be easy to strike trade deals with, and you really think the UK can't put its foot down to protect its own environment, climate change etc, etc? The UK can you know and will.

I think it's more jealousy that the UK will be first in getting trade deals with these countries before the EU does. Oh the EU may never get a deal with these countries with how difficult they where with Canada, it was Canada that said they weren't going to allow the EU to stall anymore after 7 years of hard work and money spent, the poor cheif negotiator from Canada was in tears when it almost fell through because of the Walloons (in Belgium) rejecting the deal. Yes the EU got the CETA deal in the end but it was a headache getting there and a shambles for anyone watching from outside. Anyone else would have probably walked away from this deal because of the EU being difficult.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Don't these calls for a civil service purge ring any alarm bells? What are brexiteers scared of? Having their lies & the truth about brexit exposed?


I don't read anything in that article about brexiteers being scared. All Brenard Jenkins is sayingis if you can't accept brexit then resign.

Mr Jenkin described last summer's Brexit vote as a "shock" to Whitehall as he advised those civil servants who can't reconcile themselves with the UK departing the EU to leave their roles.

He added: "Many will adapt with alacrity but others will take time to accept it is happening. There will be many who are in grief at being required to abandon what they regard as fundamental beliefs and who cannot grasp how to embrace the opposite of what UK governments have tried to achieve in Europe for four decades.

"For civil servants who cannot or will not adapt, the only honourable option is to resign


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Really.
> Ok it's a race to the bottom is it.
> Why then do the EU want a trade deal with New Zealand, Australia and America but these countries have said what is turning them off even entering negotiations with the EU is that fact that there will be 27 countries to negotiate with and 38 other areas have to approve any deals as well.
> 
> With the UK there won't be such a problem and it will be easy to strike trade deals with, and you really think the UK can't put its foot down to protect its own environment, climate change etc, etc.


If they are ttip style free trade agreements they are bad news - & progressives withn the EU, along with EU citizens who care about society & the planet will fight tooth & nail to stop them. This dreadful government have already said they will rip up regulations & red tape. Multinational corporations are going to have a brexit bonanza, the UK will be plundered for short term profiteering. Hasn't May also said shes giving more tax breaks for corporations? So much for taking our county back. Taken back & gifted to faceless corporations.

If you believe the likes of Theresa May - you're not interested in the truth - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...bsidy-cuts-emissions-targets?CMP=share_btn_tw



Honeys mum said:


> I don't read anything in that article about brexiteers being scared. All Brenard Jenkins is sayingis if you can't accept brexit then resign.
> 
> Mr Jenkin described last summer's Brexit vote as a "shock" to Whitehall as he advised those civil servants who can't reconcile themselves with the UK departing the EU to leave their roles.
> 
> He added: "Many will adapt with alacrity but others will take time to accept it is happening. There will be many who are in grief at being required to abandon what they regard as fundamental beliefs and who cannot grasp how to embrace the opposite of what UK governments have tried to achieve in Europe for four decades.
> 
> "For civil servants who cannot or will not adapt, the only honourable option is to resign


You misunderstand, the hard line pro- brexit politicians desperate to push this through are afraid the truth will out. Only a corrupt government with something to hide would seek to silence its civil servants. The public deserve the truth.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If they are ttip style free trade agreements they are bad news - & progressives withn the EU, along with EU citizens who care about society & the planet will fight tooth & nail to stop them. This dreadful government have already said they will rip up regulations & red tape. Multinational corporations are going to have a brexit bonanza, the UK will be plundered for short term profiteering. Hasn't May also said shes giving more tax breaks for corporations? So much for taking our county back. Taken back & gifted to faceless corporations.
> 
> If you believe the likes of Theresa May - you're not interested in the truth - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...bsidy-cuts-emissions-targets?CMP=share_btn_tw


You said the same thing about the CETA deal with Canada and the EU accepted that in the end after reducing the Canadian negotiator to tears after 7 years of hard work and money spent on it.

If free trade deals are so bad why is the EU wanting expanism and free trade agreements? The EU want to be the largest free trade organisation in the Western World. So why isn't it bad for them if free trade is that bad? The UK used to be one of the largest free trade countries in the world once upon a time so why not again? I think it's more that the EU don't like competition which they are about to get on there door step from the UK.

Free trade mustn't be that bad the EU are doing it and offer at present one of the largest free trade deals in the world but are so difficult to join.

The UK is able to look after itself you know and make decisions for itself. The UK has been nannied to long by the EC, EEC and later called the EU by not having to make decisions for ourselves on trade.

The USA also offer a large free trade deal so do Australia and New Zealand but neither of these countries are keen on striking a deal with the EU. Why? We just need to look at how the EU treated Canada over there CETA deal.

The UK will try to get a free trade deal with the EU but if other countries are offering less complicated deals the EU may go to the back of the queue. The UK is already talking to Australia and New Zealand and has been since October 2016 and will soon be in negotiations with USA. The UK is not breaking any rules doing this as long as no deals are signed before we leave in 2 years time.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If they are ttip style free trade agreements they are bad news - & progressives withn the EU, along with EU citizens who care about society & the planet will fight tooth & nail to stop them. This dreadful government have already said they will rip up regulations & red tape. Multinational corporations are going to have a brexit bonanza, the UK will be plundered for short term profiteering. Hasn't May also said shes giving more tax breaks for corporations? So much for taking our county back. Taken back & gifted to faceless corporations.
> 
> If you believe the likes of Theresa May - you're not interested in the truth - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...bsidy-cuts-emissions-targets?CMP=share_btn_tw
> 
> You misunderstand, the hard line pro- brexit politicians desperate to push this through are afraid the truth will out. Only a corrupt government with something to hide would seek to silence its civil servants. The public deserve the truth.


Yes the Government may well be offering tax breaks to corporate businesses to attract business to the UK. What's the EU doing? Fining corporate businesses like Apple, McDonald's etc. I wonder where they will come to setup there headquarters because it will be cheaper for them tax wise? Oh the UK.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> You said the same thing about the CETA deal with Canada and the EU accepted that in the end after reducing the Canadian negotiator to tears after 7 years of hard work and money spent on it.
> 
> If free trade deals are so bad why is the EU wanting expanism and free trade agreements? The EU want to be the largest free trade organisation in the Western World. So why isn't it bad for them if free trade is that bad? The UK used to be one of the largest free trade countries in the world once upon a time so why not again? I think it's more that the EU don't like competition which they are about to get on there door step from the UK.
> 
> Free trade mustn't be that bad the EU are doing it and offer at present one of the largest free trade deals in the world but are so difficult to join.
> 
> The UK is able to look after itself you know and make decisions for itself. The UK has been nannied to long by the EC, EEC and later called the EU by not having to make decisions for ourselves on trade.


Yes I said the same thing about CETA because its true. Read this & prepare to be terrified - https://corporateeurope.org/sites/default/files/attachments/great-ceta-swindle.pdf

CETA has not yet been ratified but Liam Fox has already passed off the deal in secret, bypassing any parliamentary scrutiny or debate. And this is one of the people you trust to serve our best interests http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...bama-increase-inequality-across-a7482961.html

There is NOTHING good about these free trade agreements. This is why the EU needs reforming - why we need progressive governments & MEPs who put society & the environment before corporate power. The vote on CETA is in 19 days time.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Yes the Government may well be offering tax breaks to corporate businesses to attract business to the UK. What's the EU doing? Fining corporate businesses like Apple, McDonald's etc. I wonder where they will come to setup there headquarters because it will be cheaper for them tax wise? Oh the UK.


You think this is a good thing? Blimey.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Yes I said the same thing about CETA because its true. Read this & prepare to be terrified - https://corporateeurope.org/sites/default/files/attachments/great-ceta-swindle.pdf
> 
> CETA has not yet been ratified but Liam Fox has already passed off the deal in secret, bypassing any parliamentary scrutiny or debate. And this is one of the people you trust to serve our best interests http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...bama-increase-inequality-across-a7482961.html
> 
> There is NOTHING good about these free trade agreements. This is why the EU needs reforming - why we need progressive governments & MEPs who put society & the environment before corporate power. The vote on CETA is in 19 days time.


CETA is an EU Candaian deal not a UK Candaian deal, but we haven't left the EU yet. When we do leave the UK won't have a deal with Canada the EU will. You will find the UK did sign off CETA during the EU negotiations with Canada so it is the EU CETA is going to affect in the long run. Wallonia was the state in Belgium that refused to sign CETA off in the end but the EU signed up to CETA after Canada told them they weren't returning to the negotiating table with the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Yes I said the same thing about CETA because its true. Read this & prepare to be terrified - https://corporateeurope.org/sites/default/files/attachments/great-ceta-swindle.pdf
> 
> CETA has not yet been ratified but Liam Fox has already passed off the deal in secret, bypassing any parliamentary scrutiny or debate. And this is one of the people you trust to serve our best interests http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...bama-increase-inequality-across-a7482961.html
> 
> There is NOTHING good about these free trade agreements. This is why the EU needs reforming - why we need progressive governments & MEPs who put society & the environment before corporate power. The vote on CETA is in 19 days time.


The EU has said it has been reforming for a very long time and guess what? Nothing has happened.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Yes I said the same thing about CETA because its true. Read this & prepare to be terrified - https://corporateeurope.org/sites/default/files/attachments/great-ceta-swindle.pdf
> 
> CETA has not yet been ratified but Liam Fox has already passed off the deal in secret, bypassing any parliamentary scrutiny or debate. And this is one of the people you trust to serve our best interests http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...bama-increase-inequality-across-a7482961.html
> 
> There is NOTHING good about these free trade agreements. This is why the EU needs reforming - why we need progressive governments & MEPs who put society & the environment before corporate power. The vote on CETA is in 19 days time.


The vote on CETA isn't in 19 days. Catch up. The EU signed the CETA deal on the 30th October 2016.
http://theguardian.com/business/201...al-trudeau-juncker?client=ms-android-motorola

Here they are signing the deal:








The EU and Canada signed a free trade deal on Sunday that was almost derailed last week by objections from French-speaking Belgians , exposing the difficulties of securing agreement from 28 member states as Britain prepares for Brexit talks.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> CETA is an EU Candaian deal not a UK Candaian deal, but we haven't left the EU yet. When we do leave the UK won't have a deal with Canada the EU will. You will find the UK did sign off CETA during the EU negotiations with Canada so it is the EU CETA is going to affect in the long run. Wallonia was the state in Belgium that refused to sign CETA off in the end but the EU signed up to CETA after Canada told them they weren't returning to the negotiating table with the EU.


Liam Fox & co will have us locked into a toxic trade deal at the first opportunity as well you know & there will be sod all we can do about it. And this government are even fawning over that fascist lunatic Trump to get a deal. I feel ashamed & embarrassed of my country.



stockwellcat said:


> The EU has said it has been reforming for a very long time and guess what? Nothing has happened.


It depends on the leaders of the member states & the MEPs within it. If more were progressives, like Wallonia & Molly Scott-Cato - we would see great change for the better.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Liam Fox & co will have us locked into a toxic trade deal at the first opportunity as well you know & there will be sod all we can do about it. And this government are even fawning over that fascist lunatic Trump to get a deal. I feel ashamed & embarrassed of my country.
> 
> It depends on the leaders of the member states & the MEPs within it. If more were progressives, like Wallonia & Molly Scott-Cato - we would see great change for the better.


How difficult are the EU?

Now they are planning to have a vote to ratify the trade deal that was already signed on the 30th October 2016.

I hope the Canadians fine them if they pull out of the EU CETA deal for wasting there time and charge the EU an exit fine from the trade agreement signed if they do pull out of it? The deal is a legally binding contract by the way.

Yes the UK has been offered a free trade deal with the USA, Australia and New Zealand and the UK is in regular talks with New Zealand and Australia since October 2016 on trade deals. Junker is going to meet the New Zealand PM today about an EU New Zealand free trade deal but the New Zealand PM is under pressure not to enter talks with the EU. Read my post on this previously.

Again another free trade deal the EU want but according to you free trade deals are bad that's why the EU have so many of them.

The UK is already having talks over striking a free trade deal with New Zealand when we leave the EU and have been in talks since October 2016 (repeating this again in case you missed it before).


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> The vote on CETA isn't in 19 days. Catch up. The EU signed the CETA deal on the 30th October 2016.
> http://theguardian.com/business/201...al-trudeau-juncker?client=ms-android-motorola
> 
> Here they are signing the deal:
> View attachment 296958
> 
> The EU and Canada signed a free trade deal on Sunday that was almost derailed last week by objections from French-speaking Belgians , exposing the difficulties of securing agreement from 28 member states as Britain prepares for Brexit talks.


Members state signed the deal in October but it isn't set in stone. The European Parliament gets the vote to decide in February. I think its you who needs to catch up lol



stockwellcat said:


> How difficult are the EU?
> 
> Now they are planning to have a vote to ratify the trade deal that was already signed on the 30th October 2016.
> 
> I hope the Canadians fine them if they pull out of the EU CETA deal for wasting there time and charge the EU an exit fine from the trade agreement signed if they do pull out of it.
> 
> Yes the UK has been offered a free trade deal with the USA, Australia and New Zealand and the UK is in regular talks with New Zealand and Australia since October 2016 on trade deals. Junker is going to meet the New Zealand PM today about an EU New Zealand free trade deal but the New Zealand PM is under pressure not to enter talks with the EU. Read my post on this previously.
> 
> Again another free trade deal the EU want but according to you free trade deals are bad.
> 
> The UK is already having talks over striking a free trade deal with New Zealand when we leave the EU and have been in talks since October 2016 (repeating this again in case you missed it before).


You quite clearly don't care about climate change the environment, animal welfare, food & water safety, the NHS, workers rights. Just as long as we get a deal, hey?


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Free Trade Agreements already in place:

Central America *(Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and
Panama) - The Association Agreement between the European Union and Central America
(Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and Panama) was approved by
the European Parliament on 11 December 2012 (IP/12/1353). The trade provisions of the
agreement apply with Honduras, Nicaragua and Panama since 1 August 2013 (IP/13/758),
with Costa Rica and El Salvador since 1 October 2013 (IP/13/881) and with Guatemala
since 1st December 2013 (IP/13/1183).
This agreement opens up markets on both sides, helping to establish a stable business
and investment environment and foster integration between the EU and the whole of the
Central America. The agreement is also meant to reinforce economic integration between
the members of the Central American region.
The EU is Central America's second biggest trading partner. In 2012, the total trade flows
in goods amounted to €14 billion, including almost €1.4 billion worth of trade with
Honduras, €1.2 billion with Panama and €0.4 billion with Nicaragua. Benefits of the
agreement will be particularly tangible for the Central America's economy that is expected
to grow by over two and a half billion euros annually once the agreement applies to the
entire region.

*Colombia and Peru* - The FTA with members of the Andean region, Colombia and Peru,
has been provisionally applied with Peru since 1 March 2013 (IP/13/173) and with
Colombia since 1 August 2013 (IP/13/749).
The EU is the second largest trading partner of the Andean region after the US. It is
expected that, once fully implemented, the deal with both Andean partners will result in
total tariff saving for European and Andean companies of more than €500 million per year.
The improved, more stable conditions for trade and investment are expected to boost
trade and investment between the two regions. The aim of the agreement between the
EU, Colombia and Peru is also to foster regional integration. Therefore, the door is still
open for the other Andean countries - Ecuador and Bolivia - to enter into the partnership.

*South Korea* - The EU-Korea Free Trade Agreement entered into force in July 2011. This
has been the first of a new generation of free trade agreements that went further than
ever before at lifting trade barriers and making it easier for European and Korean
companies to do business together. As the FTA has lowered import tariffs for European
products at the Korean border, EU exports to the peninsular country have grown strongly
giving the EU a trade surplus with Korea for the first time in 15 years. Marking two years
since the start of the implementation phase, the state of play was discussed, inter alia, on
the occasion of the EU-South Korea Summit held in Brussels on 8 November (IP/13/1046
and MEMO/13/959). On 11 November the parties initialled an Additional Protocol to the
EU-Korea FTA to take into account the accession of Croatia to the EU.

*Mexico* - Since the entry into force in October 2000 of this comprehensive Free Trade
Agreement, total bilateral trade has doubled, passing from €21.7 billion in 2000 to €47.1
billion in 2012. In the margins of the EU-CELAC1
summit in Santiago in January 2013, the
EU and Mexico agreed to explore the options for a modernisation of the EU-M
Mexico - Since the entry into force in October 2000 of this comprehensive Free Trade
Agreement, total bilateral trade has doubled, passing from €21.7 billion in 2000 to €47.1
billion in 2012. In the margins of the EU-CELAC1
summit in Santiago in January 2013, the
EU and Mexico agreed to explore the options for a modernisation of the EU-Mexico
Agreement. The new talks should deepen the existing provisions but also cover areas not
included in the existing agreement, such as services, investment, public procurement,
trade rules, etc. Following-up on the decision taken by Presidents Barroso and Peña Nieto
in the summit, a Joint Working Group, tasked with a reflection on the modernisation of the
agreement, met on 22-23 October 2013.

*Economic Partnership Agreements* are being implemented in with three regions: the
Caribbean (fifteen CARIFORUM states), the Pacific (the only country currently applying is
Papua New Guinea) and Eastern and Southern Africa (four ESA countries - Zimbabwe,
Mauritius, Madagascar, the Seychelles).

*South Africa* - South Africa is the EU's largest trading partner in Africa. The Trade,
Development and Co-operation Agreement, in force since 2000, established a free trade
area that covers 90% of bilateral trade between the EU and South Africa. Liberalisation
was completed by 2012. South Africa is now involved in further negotiations with the EU
as part of the South African Development Community (SADC) EPA Group.

*Chile* - The EU and Chile concluded an Association Agreement in 2002, which included a
comprehensive Free Trade Agreement that entered into force in February 2003. The EU-
Chile Free Trade Agreement is broad and comprehensive and covers all the areas of EU-
Chile trade relations. EU is Chile's second largest source of imports, after the USA. The
EU is also Chile's third largest export market, after the recent rise of China as an
important export market for the EU.
On top of these "classic" free trade deals, Free Trade Agreements are a core
component of many Association Agreements as well as Customs Unions (Andorra,
San Marino, Turkey). Hence the EU also has free trade deals in force with a number of
countries and territories in Europe (Faroe Islands, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, the
former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina,
Serbia) and the Southern Mediterranean (Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon,
Morocco, Palestinian Authority, Syria, Tunisia) and three with African, Caribbean and
Pacific countries (Caribbean, Pacific and Eastern and Southern Africa). Trade provisions of
the agreement with Syria are currently not applied.
The EU therefore has already in place trade agreements with some 50 partners.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If Free Trade deals are so bad @noushka05 why has the EU got so many then? See list above as proof. @cheekyscrip and Colombia, Central America (Which is part of the North American Continent), South Korea and South Africa (Which is part of the African continent) is on the list :Muted:Muted whoops we already trade with Colombia.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> If Free Trade deals are so bad @noushka05 why has the EU got so many then? See list above as proof. @cheekyscrip and Colombia and South Africa is on the list :Muted


Not all trade agreements are bad lol Toxic agreements such as CETA, TTIP, TTP are nothing more than corporate power grabs.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Not all trade agreements are bad lol Toxic agreements such as CETA, TTIP, TTP are nothing more than corporate power grabs.
> 
> View attachment 296962


Yes but you was arguing that free trade deals are bad in general. Look above at your posts. But as I just proved the EU have so many and now you changed your stance :Muted

Once the UK has negotiated it's exit with the EU I am sure the UK can get a free trade deal with the EU outside of the single market because as you can see many countries around the world trade with the EU from outside of the single market and don't accept the freedoms of movement of EU citizens, goods and services.


----------



## KittenKong

From Sabre's "Good Brexit News" thread

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37055&start=40


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I love how the minority of remainers who love to put leaving the EU down. We are leaving so get used to it, no one is reversing Brexit infact MPs and Lords and most of the public that voted remain have got behind those that voted leave because they have realised the UK is leaving.


Yes, I think everyone realises the UK is leaving the EU but forgive me, for one, for not getting behind leave voters by embracing it!

More embarrassed more like....


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Members state signed the deal in October but it isn't set in stone. The European Parliament gets the vote to decide in February. I think its you who needs to catch up lol


 So if UK MEPs or Irish European MPs (oh didn't you know the Republic of Ireland are against the CETA deal and the Republic of Ireland isn't part of the UK http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/718599/CETA-EU-Canada-trade-deal-fail-Ireland-rejects) or Spainish European representatives object via vetoing CETA then the deal is off the table?  Ohh the Canadians will be annoyed with the EU if the ratification falls through and the deal goes back to the drawing board. They have already said they aren't going back to the negotiating table with the EU anymore last year.


----------



## stockwellcat.

For those that don't think banks aren't getting a say in Brexit well there is a chaired committee meeting on now with HSBC about the UK's Economic Relationship with the EU. The HSBC Chairman has been discussing Brexit and running various scenarios past the Chaired Committee :


----------



## stockwellcat.

As I said before the pound is now on its way up again. I know it isn't as high as it was last week against the Euro and Dollar but it will get there.

*British Pound Today: Live Rates*
*Pounds to Euros: Today's GBP/EUR Conversion*








*1.1509▲ Pound Up Against Euro*
0.07%

Today's Low

1.141

Today's High

1.1515

Yesterday's Closing Rate

1.1501

*Pounds to Dollars: Today's GBP/USD Conversion*








*1.2163▲ Pound Up against Dollar*
0.03%

Today's Low

1.2107

Today's High

1.218

Yesterday's Closing Rate

1.216

*Pounds to Australian Dollars: Today's GBP/AUD Conversion*








*1.6564▲ Pound Up Against Australian Dollar*
0.2%

Today's Low

1.6441

Today's High

1.6575

Yesterday's Closing Rate

1.6531

*Pounds to New Zealand Dollars: Today's GBP/NZD Conversion*








*1.7444▲Pound Up Against New Zealand Dollar*
0.68%

Today's Low

1.7266

Today's High

1.7458

Yesterday's Closing Rate

1.7327

*Pounds to South African Rand: Today's GBP/ZAR Conversion*








*16.6557▲ Pound Up Against African Rand*
0.26%

Today's Low

16.4635

Today's High

16.6774

Yesterday's Closing Rate

16.6122

*Pounds to Canadian Dollars: Today's GBP/CAD Conversion*








*1.6092▲ Pound Up Against Canadian Dollar*
0.14%

Today's Low

1.6006

Today's High

1.6109

Yesterday's Closing Rate

1.6069

Live Data From: https://www.poundsterlinglive.com


----------



## leashedForLife

.
that dumpling darling U so admire, the Trumpster installed by the Electoral College, is the Tweet-in-Chief who wants to impose a 35% punitive tariff on imported cars & other goods -
he threatened Toyota directly & was evidently not aware that Toyota, far from exclusively manufacturing overseas, already employs hundreds of thousands of Merikans in its various U-S factories.
.
despite being such a "brilliant businessman" & "knowing more" than anyone else about THEIR * OWN * FIELDS OF EXPERTISE, such as the "Generals about the military situation in the Middle East" -
per his own claims -
our Chief Twit was shockingly unaware that Toyota is a key linchpin for the economies of the towns where they've built plants.

.
Maybe Trumpling should actually listen to those advisors he ignores & avoids... Ya know, the ones who are *Paid* to whittle critical information from the mass of data, & present it to POTUS [and our incoming Pretender]?
.
praps then he wouldn't embarrass himself so often by making loud statements that are not merely a little misguided, but flat-out wrong --
because he persists in gleaning "the facts" for himself, via social media.
:eyeroll:
.
The man doesn't know the difference between opinion & facts, & lies virtually as often as he opens his mouth, by omission, commission, sheer ignorance, & outright intent.
He chooses his "facts" from the ocean of cr*p spewed on-line by right-wing talking heads, neo-Nazi ideologues, & popular bloggers.
He's a nincompoop with a lot of money GIVEN * TO * HIM by various Big Banks, which he uses to make more money for his conspicuous consumption habits.
When his businesses lose money / stop earning, he abandons them & waddles off with his pockets bulging, leaving his former employees without jobs, his former buildings empty or, in the case of apartment buildings & hotels, scantly tenanted, & expects the local authorities to clean up the mess.
.
He's an opportunistic braggart who doesn't even pay his bills - the number of contractors, subcontractors, suppliers, designers, etc, UNPAID in his past for legitimate work or goods is staggering.
.
and this is the man, Stockwell, that U look to to strike "a good deal for the UK" as a trading-partner?
All i can say is, Ur government had dam*ed well better have an army of solicitors well-versed in trade, to read every syllable & parse every comma, semi-colon, & dash, let alone clauses, in any trade-deal with the Trumpster.
He's got a rich history of promising everything & delivering an empty shell, a brief flourish of trumpets at the opening, a scattering of coins to the poor masses cheering, some spectacle with food, drink, & lavish surfaces, & then he leaves - as soon as it's not minting money FOR HIM, leaving his erstwhile partners or hosts holding the bag, & his hired help looking for new jobs.
.
Heaven help the poor saps who rely on him for wages.
He's all hat & no cattle.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> .
> that dumpling darling U so admire, the Trumpster installed by the Electoral College, is the Tweet-in-Chief who wants to impose a 35% punitive tariff on imported cars & other goods -
> he threatened Toyota directly & was evidently not aware that Toyota, far from exclusively manufacturing overseas, already employs hundreds of thousands of Merikans in its various U-S factories.
> .
> despite being such a "brilliant businessman" & "knowing more" than anyone else about THEIR * OWN * FIELDS OF EXPERTISE, such as the "Generals about the military situation in the Middle East" -
> per his own claims -
> our Chief Twit was shockingly unaware that Toyota is a key linchpin for the economies of the towns where they've built plants.
> 
> .
> Maybe Trumpling should actually listen to those advisors he ignores & avoids... Ya know, the ones who are *Paid* to whittle critical information from the mass of data, & present it to POTUS [and our incoming Pretender]?
> .
> praps then he wouldn't embarrass himself so often by making loud statements that are not merely a little misguided, but flat-out wrong --
> because he persists in gleaning "the facts" for himself, via social media.
> :eyeroll:
> .
> The man doesn't know the difference between opinion & facts, & lies virtually as often as he opens his mouth, by omission, commission, sheer ignorance, & outright intent.
> He chooses his "facts" from the ocean of cr*p spewed on-line by right-wing talking heads, neo-Nazi ideologues, & popular bloggers.
> He's a nincompoop with a lot of money GIVEN * TO * HIM by various Big Banks, which he uses to make more money for his conspicuous consumption habits.
> When his businesses lose money / stop earning, he abandons them & waddles off with his pockets bulging, leaving his former employees without jobs, his former buildings empty or, in the case of apartment buildings & hotels, scantly tenanted, & expects the local authorities to clean up the mess.
> .
> He's an opportunistic braggart who doesn't even pay his bills - the number of contractors, subcontractors, suppliers, designers, etc, UNPAID in his past for legitimate work or goods is staggering.
> .
> and this is the man, Stockwell, that U look to to strike "a good deal for the UK" as a trading-partner?
> All i can say is, Ur government had dam*ed well better have an army of solicitors well-versed in trade, to read every syllable & parse every comma, semi-colon, & dash, let alone clauses, in any trade-deal with the Trumpster.
> He's got a rich history of promising everything & delivering an empty shell, a brief flourish of trumpets at the opening, a scattering of coins to the poor masses cheering, some spectacle with food, drink, & lavish surfaces, & then he leaves - as soon as it's not minting money FOR HIM, leaving his erstwhile partners or hosts holding the bag, & his hired help looking for new jobs.
> .
> Heaven help the poor saps who rely on him for wages.
> He's all hat & no cattle.
> .
> .
> .


So why pick on the UK about getting a free trade deal with the US?

Perhaps because the UK will achieve it quicker than the EU?

Oh didn't you know the EU want a free trade deal with the US as well it's called TTIP?

Here is the latest reports on there latest meeting with the US.
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/index_en.htm

| New York, 7 October 2016

*Final press conference of the TTIP 15th round of negotiations*
Speaking points delivered by the EU's Chief TTIP Negotiator Ignacio Garcia Bercero

"We came to New York with one objective - to make as much progress as possible in our trade talks with the US. The reasons to continue these talks are as strong as three years ago when we started negotiating this biggest bilateral trade agreement in the world.

The economic rationale to strengthen transatlantic ties is obvious. The US and the EU are each other's major trading partners, the biggest recipient of EU's investments and the biggest foreign investor in the EU. Millions of jobs across all Member States are linked to the exports to the US. We have almost 200,000 companies in Europe that sell their products and services directly to the US, and almost 90% of those companies are smaller firms. So, it makes sense to make their life easier for instance by reducing tariffs or facilitating their ways through customs. This would allow them to open up new transatlantic bridges and create new jobs.

There is also strong geopolitical rationale to have a comprehensive and balanced agreement with the US. In this uncertain world, having close economic partners could help Europe to shape globalisation according to our high standards and according to our vision. Just today, a few blocks from here, at the United Nations Head Quarters, the European Union deposits the ratified Paris Agreement to fight climate change. This means the agreement enters into force. It is a unique example of global cooperation between the EU, the US and other countries.

We want TTIP also to be a tool which would help us shape globalisation by agreeing on high standards on environment, labour or consumer protection. If we work together, and only if we work together, we will have much bigger impact.

We hear both in the EU and the US that some people fear the consequences of uncontrolled globalisation. An EU-US trade agreement could be one of the tools to address these issues that people rightly are worried about.

There is also a very strong rationale to agree on strong regulatory cooperation between the EU and the US. There are three main reasons for this:


First - Because it will benefit our companies, especially the smaller ones. When we talk to them, they often tell us they don't have enough time or money to sometimes even understand what these differences are between regulations; contrary to the big firms who can afford that.
Second - because it will promote more effective regulations to the benefit of citizens. Closer cooperation with the US would make our regulation more effective. Regulators that work together can learn from each other's ideas, reduce costs and come up with better solutions.
When new technologies arrive, as they do every day, regulators need as much information as possible. By working together they can share research, expert perspectives and best practices. Working together can save governments time and money, which they can then deploy on better enforcement, rather than doing redundant tests or inspections.
Third - because it will help us to shape global regulations to the benefits of consumers. Where TTIP would lead to shared approaches, those are more likely to be followed around the world, meaning a regulatory race to the top rather than a race to the bottom, as both the EU and the US are probably the most sophisticated regulatory regimes on the planet.
Of course, regulatory cooperation will always be voluntary, based on mutual interest and not restrict either side's freedom to regulate in the public interest. And such cooperation will only be possible if it upholds or increase the level of protection of our citizens. Only this is on the table and nothing else would be acceptable to leaders and parliaments across Europe.

Let me talk about this round now.

In this round we focused on consolidating texts and removing the differences we had in the existing proposals; or what we call in our trade jargon 'removing brackets'. Our teams have worked extremely hard and have made significant progress in a number of areas.

For example, the negotiators have spent a lot of time discussing the regulatory area, including regulatory coherence, technical barriers to trade, plants and animals health (SPS) and the nine specific sectors identified for cooperation before the talks has begun (the 9 sectors are: cars, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, cosmetics, ICT, pesticide, engineering, medical devices and textiles).

Progress in some of those sectors is very encouraging. For instance, we have been talking about updating the existing mutual recognition agreement on good manufacturing practices in the pharma sector.

Now, we will report the progress we have achieved this week back to our respective politicians, and then we will decide on the next steps. On the EU's side our trade ministers will meet again on 11 November. In the meantime, the EU's head of states at European Council should also be able to have a discussion on trade issues, including on the state of play of the negotiations with the United States. "

So the EU is still hopeful they can achieve Globalisation and the TTIP deal


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Yes but you was arguing that free trade deals are bad in general. Look above at your posts. But as I just proved the EU have so many and now you changed your stance :Muted
> 
> Once the UK has negotiated it's exit with the EU I am sure the UK can get a free trade deal with the EU outside of the single market because as you can see many countries around the world trade with the EU from outside of the single market and don't accept the freedoms of movement of EU citizens, goods and services.


No, I was not arguing that free trade deals are bad in general. My stance has not changed one iota. Just for clarification; if we are to take climate change seriously then it makes sense to do most of our trading with our European neighbours (& lets not forget all the other benefits that holds!). I have been speaking out against TTIP since George Monbiot broke the story in the msm several years ago. Trade agreements of this type are not really free trade agreements at all - they are charters for extending corporate property . I have stated many times before the neocon zealots in government are desperate to get us locked into one - I'm sure you will agree with me on that one? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/sovereignty-corporations-liam-fox-eu Hope I've made myself clear now.



stockwellcat said:


> So if UK MEPs or Irish European MPs (oh didn't you know the Republic of Ireland are against the CETA deal and the Republic of Ireland isn't part of the UK http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/718599/CETA-EU-Canada-trade-deal-fail-Ireland-rejects) or Spainish European representatives object via vetoing CETA then the deal is off the table?  Ohh the Canadians will be annoyed with the EU if the ratification falls through and the deal goes back to the drawing board. They have already said they aren't going back to the negotiating table with the EU anymore last year.


As I said previously the European Parliament get the vote to decide in february. Fingers crossed it falls through  - because anyone wanting this succeed seriously need their head testing.






I may as well post this on here. Everyone who gives a **** about society & the environment please sign this - https://action.globaljustice.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1784&ea.campaign.id=55082

*On Sunday 30 October, Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau and European leaders signed CETA**, the toxic trade deal between Canada and the EU. But the deal is definitely not out of the woods yet. We still have a chance to put CETA back in the grave.

*Please tell your Members of the European parliament (MEPs) to reject CETA.*

*The next steps for CETA*
In order to enter fully into force, *CETA must still clear some 38 national and regional parliaments in the EU *in the coming years.
The parliament of Wallonia, the French-speaking Belgian region which has already opposed CETA and postponed the signing, has a promise that they will be able to stop the ratification of CETA when they get a formal vote on it. Unless there are substantial changes, they - and hopefully other parliaments - will use that veto.

What's more, the whole 'corporate court' concept will now go to the highest European court to adjudicate on its legality - something which risks invalidating the EU's entire trade agenda.
*
Write to your UK MEPs to make sure they reject CETA.*



stockwellcat said:


> For those that don't think banks aren't getting a say in Brexit well there is a chaired committee meeting on now with HSBC about the UK's Economic Relationship with the EU. The HSBC Chairman has been discussing Brexit and running various scenarios past the Chaired Committee :
> View attachment 296975
> 
> View attachment 296974


Ahh good ole honest HSBC:Wideyed


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> So why pick on the UK about getting a free trade deal with the US?
> 
> Perhaps because the UK will achieve it quicker than the EU?
> 
> Oh didn't you know the EU want a free trade deal with the US as well it's called TTIP?
> 
> Here is the latest reports on there latest meeting with the US.
> http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/index_en.htm
> 
> | New York, 7 October 2016
> 
> *Final press conference of the TTIP 15th round of negotiations*
> Speaking points delivered by the EU's Chief TTIP Negotiator Ignacio Garcia Bercero
> 
> "We came to New York with one objective - to make as much progress as possible in our trade talks with the US. The reasons to continue these talks are as strong as three years ago when we started negotiating this biggest bilateral trade agreement in the world.
> 
> The economic rationale to strengthen transatlantic ties is obvious. The US and the EU are each other's major trading partners, the biggest recipient of EU's investments and the biggest foreign investor in the EU. Millions of jobs across all Member States are linked to the exports to the US. We have almost 200,000 companies in Europe that sell their products and services directly to the US, and almost 90% of those companies are smaller firms. So, it makes sense to make their life easier for instance by reducing tariffs or facilitating their ways through customs. This would allow them to open up new transatlantic bridges and create new jobs.
> 
> There is also strong geopolitical rationale to have a comprehensive and balanced agreement with the US. In this uncertain world, having close economic partners could help Europe to shape globalisation according to our high standards and according to our vision. Just today, a few blocks from here, at the United Nations Head Quarters, the European Union deposits the ratified Paris Agreement to fight climate change. This means the agreement enters into force. It is a unique example of global cooperation between the EU, the US and other countries.
> 
> We want TTIP also to be a tool which would help us shape globalisation by agreeing on high standards on environment, labour or consumer protection. If we work together, and only if we work together, we will have much bigger impact.
> 
> We hear both in the EU and the US that some people fear the consequences of uncontrolled globalisation. An EU-US trade agreement could be one of the tools to address these issues that people rightly are worried about.
> 
> There is also a very strong rationale to agree on strong regulatory cooperation between the EU and the US. There are three main reasons for this:
> 
> 
> First - Because it will benefit our companies, especially the smaller ones. When we talk to them, they often tell us they don't have enough time or money to sometimes even understand what these differences are between regulations; contrary to the big firms who can afford that.
> Second - because it will promote more effective regulations to the benefit of citizens. Closer cooperation with the US would make our regulation more effective. Regulators that work together can learn from each other's ideas, reduce costs and come up with better solutions.
> When new technologies arrive, as they do every day, regulators need as much information as possible. By working together they can share research, expert perspectives and best practices. Working together can save governments time and money, which they can then deploy on better enforcement, rather than doing redundant tests or inspections.
> Third - because it will help us to shape global regulations to the benefits of consumers. Where TTIP would lead to shared approaches, those are more likely to be followed around the world, meaning a regulatory race to the top rather than a race to the bottom, as both the EU and the US are probably the most sophisticated regulatory regimes on the planet.
> Of course, regulatory cooperation will always be voluntary, based on mutual interest and not restrict either side's freedom to regulate in the public interest. And such cooperation will only be possible if it upholds or increase the level of protection of our citizens. Only this is on the table and nothing else would be acceptable to leaders and parliaments across Europe.
> 
> Let me talk about this round now.
> 
> In this round we focused on consolidating texts and removing the differences we had in the existing proposals; or what we call in our trade jargon 'removing brackets'. Our teams have worked extremely hard and have made significant progress in a number of areas.
> 
> For example, the negotiators have spent a lot of time discussing the regulatory area, including regulatory coherence, technical barriers to trade, plants and animals health (SPS) and the nine specific sectors identified for cooperation before the talks has begun (the 9 sectors are: cars, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, cosmetics, ICT, pesticide, engineering, medical devices and textiles).
> 
> Progress in some of those sectors is very encouraging. For instance, we have been talking about updating the existing mutual recognition agreement on good manufacturing practices in the pharma sector.
> 
> Now, we will report the progress we have achieved this week back to our respective politicians, and then we will decide on the next steps. On the EU's side our trade ministers will meet again on 11 November. In the meantime, the EU's head of states at European Council should also be able to have a discussion on trade issues, including on the state of play of the negotiations with the United States."


----------



## KittenKong

....Also don't forget a US President doesn't do favors without expecting something in return.

Perhaps the UK in Trump's case?

I see a certain political party are campaigning to have the CE mark removed from pint glasses. How petty can they get?

Apparently they don't trust the EU to give a proper pint. The last time I looked it equals 568ml as it always has done!

Perhaps they'll better get used to American weights and measures. Their pint is 454ml or 16 fl oz.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> View attachment 296995


Another one for you:








And another one:








Oh and another one:









All these cartoons represent the US giving TTIP to the EU.


----------



## noushka05

Oh dear the FT exposing yet more deceit from the leave camp.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh and there's this as well @noushka05








The EU seem so desperate to close the deal with Canada hence they have already signed the agreement. The EU and every Government within it could get sued by companies in Canada and Europe and the EU under the CETA deal.

Another good reason for the UK to leave the EU.

TTIP and CETA are EU deals (sorry trade agreements) not UK deals/trade argreements, the UK aren't allowed to make any yet


----------



## Jesthar

Slightly different tack, but this amused me today:


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Oh and there's this as well @noushka05
> View attachment 297001
> 
> The EU seem so desperate to close the deal with Canada hence they have already signed the agreement. The EU and every Government within it could get sued by companies in Canada and Europe and the EU under the CETA deal.
> 
> Another good reason for the UK to leave the EU.


It would be a good reason to leave the EU, if we were getting something better - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/european-union-eu-britain-sovereignty


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> It would be a good reason to leave the EU, if we were getting something better - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/european-union-eu-britain-sovereignty


Oh we going around in circles again? If so this is were we part ways. It's not my fault you can't digest what you read or are just full of sour grapes.

The past is the past and there is nothing anyone can do to change it, the future is ahead of us not behind us and it is up to us how we shape our own destiny.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Yes..we are sure to get deals.
That will actually damage and change UK.
Some say here I am anti UK..
How idiotic?
Pushing your country into more austerity, damage to environment, huge step backwards in health care and animal and human rights is obviously hugely patriotic.
Look at the 100 reasons for Brexit again..
So DDT? As good weed killer? Or country free of builders?

Yes...we will have Chinese in charge of our nukie reactors and our gas grid?
You think DT will give is deal actually caring about our people?
Or his business?

You are fired!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes..we are sure to get deals.
> That will actually damage and change UK.
> Some say here I am anti UK..
> How idiotic?
> Pushing your country into more austerity, damage to environment, huge step backwards in health care and animal and human rights is obviously hugely patriotic.
> Look at the 100 reasons for Brexit again..
> So DDT? As good weed killer? Or country free of builders?
> 
> Yes...we will have Chinese in charge of our nukie reactors and our gas grid?
> You think DT will give is deal actually caring about our people?
> Or his business?
> 
> You are fired!!!


TTIP will damage the EU more than the UK as it isn't a UK deal. Again CETA isn't a UK deal and will do more damage to the EU than the UK it's an EU deal not a UK deal.

You really do think that the Government is full of idiotic planks that haven't got a clue what they are doing don't you?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Oh we going around in circles again? If so this is were we part ways. It's not my fault you can't digest what you read or are just full of sour grapes.
> 
> The past is the past, the future is ahead of us not behind us.


It's not sour grapes to point out obvious flaws in assumptions, though, is it?

The EU is very far from perfect, but it does give a collective clout to the bargaining power of it's members on many fronts. It would be illogical to suggest that the UK on it's own would have as much leverage for negotiation.

Now, a lot of people seem to be assuming that in leaving we will magically get offered amazing trade deals that will be ratified within months, and reading the small print would be checking the gift horse for cavities. Me, I hate to assume anything - we all know the old saying about that after all.

The UK is an island, and we need trade to survive - just from a food and energy standpoint. That puts us on the back foot, as we need the outside world more than they need us. So if you were an entity - corporate or country - the UK were trying to negotiate with, would you give the UK a better deal than than any existing one you have with the EU? Or would you hold out for all the extras you can get?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> It's not sour grapes to point out obvious flaws in assumptions, though, is it?
> 
> The EU is very far from perfect, but it does give a collective clout to the bargaining power of it's members on many fronts. It would be illogical to suggest that the UK on it's own would have as much leverage for negotiation.
> 
> Now, a lot of people seem to be assuming that in leaving we will magically get offered amazing trade deals that will be ratified within months, and reading the small print would be checking the gift horse for cavities. Me, I hate to assume anything - we all know the old saying about that after all.
> 
> The UK is an island, and we need trade to survive - just from a food and energy standpoint. That puts us on the back foot, as we need the outside world more than they need us. So if you were an entity - corporate or country - the UK were trying to negotiate with, would you give the UK a better deal than than any existing one you have with the EU? Or would you hold out for all the extras you can get?


But we will still be trading with the EU, the UK is renegotiating this and if the UK doesn't get a deal guess what? The UK will still be trading with the EU under WTO rules. The UK has its red lines in the coming negotiations and so do the EU, the rest is middle ground. The difference there will be from the outset is the UK will be trading with the EU from outside the EU like many of the trade agreements the EU already has with many of the countries around the world it has free trade agreements with. The UK does not have to accept the four freedoms of movement or be in the single market to have a free trade agreement with the EU. The EU trade with many countries who are not in the single market and have free trade agreements with these countries.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Oh we going around in circles again? If so this is were we part ways. It's not my fault you can't digest what you read or are just full of sour grapes.
> 
> The past is the past and there is nothing anyone can do to change it, the future is ahead of us not behind us and it is up to us how we shape our own destiny.


I can digest what I read alright, hence my concern. Obviously if I believed this government & the gutter press I'd think everything was hunky dory - like you do lol.



stockwellcat said:


> TTIP will damage the EU more than the UK as it isn't a UK deal. Again CETA isn't a UK deal and will do more damage to the EU than the UK it's an EU deal not a UK deal.
> 
> You really do think that the Government is full of idiotic planks that haven't got a clue what they are doing don't you?


Unfortunately Liam Fox & co are biggest champions of these toxic trade deals 

Is this the same government that denies the NHS is in crisis? lol


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> But we will still be trading with the EU, the UK is renegotiating this and if the UK doesn't get a deal guess what? *The UK will still be trading with the EU under WTO rules*. The UK has its red lines in the coming negotiations and so do the EU, the rest is middle ground. The difference there will be from the outset is the UK will be trading with the EU from outside the EU like many of the trade agreements the EU already has with many of the countries around the world it has free trade agreements with. The UK does not have to accept the four freedoms of movement or be in the single market to have a free trade agreement with the EU. The EU trade with many countries who are not in the single market and have free trade agreements with these countries.


I seem to see this a lot. I don't think many have any idea what it exactly entails, or the hefty costs usually associated with it (and I'm not referring to tarrifs here).

Not to mention that free trade agreements usually take a lot longer than two years to negotiate (each one), and we don't have enough trained negotiators to ensure every deal is generally favourable. Unless we hire foreign negotiators, of course - but that's probably not wise given the whole premise of Brexit, is it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dear reaminers,

You can spend seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years over analyzing the referendum results trying to justify what could have happened, might have happened or even would have happened if the referendum went your way or you can just move on and look forward to the new future the UK will have instead of over worrying....

It doesn't matter how many times you ask the same question or similar questions the answers will always stay the same. The more you keep complaining about the referendum results and the pending negotiations the more it makes me feel that I voted the right way. I have no resentments voting the way I did as I said I would always would have voted that way.

You will never change my mind.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> TTIP will damage the EU more than the UK as it isn't a UK deal. Again CETA isn't a UK deal and will do more damage to the EU than the UK it's an EU deal not a UK deal.
> 
> You really do think that the Government is full of idiotic planks that haven't got a clue what they are doing don't you?


Like BJ,, Fox, Davies, to name the main characters...

Or looking beyond government : Nige, Allnut ( nomen omen!!!), Gove...

There are savvy ones, no worries , not in gov , but pulling the strings...like Rupert Murdoch....

I am sure Tories would make this country better. For Tories and their donors.

I am sure that BJ and TM were very happy to get the top jobs..whichever way...and if Remind won they would be very eagerly supporting them.
Even adequate spiels prepared...lol.


----------



## kimthecat

Whats Corbyn's stance on Brexit now. It seems he gave some big speech today. 
He seems a bit vague about it .

From Twitter
*im Waterson Verified account * ‏@*jimwaterson*  1h1 hour ago

Subtle difference in *Corbyn*'s *speech* on immigration between the overnight/delivered version.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Po


kimthecat said:


> Whats Corbyn's stance on Brexit now. It seems he gave some big speech today.
> He seems a bit vague about it .
> 
> From Twitter
> *im Waterson Verified account * ‏@*jimwaterson*  1h1 hour ago
> 
> Subtle difference in *Corbyn*'s *speech* on immigration between the overnight/delivered version.


Funny thing that I never trusted the bugger...if you remember my posts....

So much for his integrity. I can say " I told you so"...
Wonder how all the young people, students, eco warriors who supported him like some pf members here feel like?
After paying membership to vote for him. Believing his stand on Brexit was "honest" if lukewarm...

Betrayed?
I think he betrayed them already before referendum.

Now that he is elected again he is showing his true colours: Jumped on Brexit bandwagon hoping to scrap some votes from UKIP.
What a cheek. For his hardcore supporters 
Do not trust commies. Never. Bl**dy radishes...

Is there anyone but SNP with any integrity left?


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...er-pro-europe-eu-referendum-organising-groups


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Whats Corbyn's stance on Brexit now. It seems he gave some big speech today.
> He seems a bit vague about it .
> 
> From Twitter
> *im Waterson Verified account * ‏@*jimwaterson*  1h1 hour ago
> 
> Subtle difference in *Corbyn*'s *speech* on immigration between the overnight/delivered version.


That's called hedging your bets


----------



## KittenKong

Well my instincts were proven to be right. Perhaps, like Farage, he wants a say in the Brexit negotiations?

What a kick in the teeth for the 65% of Labour supporters who backed remain by seemingly accepting a vote based on xenophobia and lies.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Well my instincts were proven to be right. Perhaps, like Farage, he wants a say in the Brexit negotiations?
> 
> What a kick in the teeth for the 65% of Labour supporters who backed remain by seemingly accepting a vote based on xenophobia and lies.











So he calls Brexit a bargain basement economy , unequal and all that?
And he declares his support for THAT?
How many idealists forked out money for Labour membership? To support him. As a figure of honesty and integrity among desperate seat clingers...
Think he surpasses even BJ in two faceness and closes on Gove...

Never EVER trust COMMIES!.
LEARN young generation from those who know commies first hand...

Never trusted him. Virgin Train Martyr.

Followed tradition of lies and backstabbing of Blair and Ed Miliband.

RIP Labour...
Gordon Brown was your last man standing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong now do you see why Corbyn wouldn't be a good PM 

He seems to not know what he is doing and his speech seemed all over the place today. He changes his mind alot as well.

Never liked the guy myself.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> RIP Labour...


Agree with you. RIP Labour.

Corbyn has made himself totally unelectable in the next general elections.



> he surpasses even BJ in two faceness


 So Boris isn't two face after all it was Corbyn who was and he's on the opposite side of the house.

The predictions are coming true of a one party nation


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Dear reaminers,
> 
> You can spend seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years over analyzing the referendum results trying to justify what could have happened, might have happened or even would have happened if the referendum went your way or you can just move on and look forward to the new future the UK will have instead of over worrying....
> 
> It doesn't matter how many times you ask the same question or similar questions the answers will always stay the same. The more you keep complaining about the referendum results and the pending negotiations the more it makes me feel that I voted the right way. I have no resentments voting the way I did as I said I would always would have voted that way.
> 
> You will never change my mind.


I wouldn't waste my time trying to change your mind. But I do think it is important to be able to be realistic, by which I mean avoiding both the rose tinted spectacle AND the morbid doom and gloom ends of the spectrum.

And you can't be realistic without facts. Whether or not people _like_ the facts doesn't really matter to me, it's just important to me to do the research and know them. To write off wanting to know facts as not wanting to move on and embrace the future is illogical, and nor is wanting to know facts complaining. So as someone who buys material from overseas, I am more than a litte interested in the potential trade positions we might end up in. Knowledge is power, forewarned is forearmed etc. An example of this is knowing that trading under WTO rules isn't the golden safety net it is made out to be, or that it is likely to take more than 2 years to negotiate favourable trade deals with anyone, let alone everyone. Personally I think that kind of knowledge is important, don't you? 

As I can sense fingers heading towards the phrase "Well, the _fact_ is we're leaving the EU!!!" I'll beat you to that particular stuck record. People are still allowed to be worried and unsure, especially if they know of people who have already lost jobs as a direct result of the referendum result, or are likely to if and when Brexit actually goes ahead. And being worried and unsure doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how they might have voted, either. Sure, you can tell them to deal with it, get over it, grow a pair and embrace the future you moaning minnie, but that's not exactly kind or compassionate, is it? And certainly not likely to induce positivity!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> As I can sense fingers heading towards the phrase "Well, the _fact_ is we're leaving the EU!!!"


 Nope not getting that phrase from me anymore, I have changed my record earlier this evening as it kept jumping 

So seeing as my record has changed I'll let you worry and wait for your record to be changed 

Now I will do this :Muted:Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> I wouldn't waste my time trying to change your mind. But I do think it is important to be able to be realistic, by which I mean avoiding both the rose tinted spectacle AND the morbid doom and gloom ends of the spectrum.
> 
> And you can't be realistic without facts. Whether or not people _like_ the facts doesn't really matter to me, it's just important to me to do the research and know them. To write off wanting to know facts as not wanting to move on and embrace the future is illogical, and nor is wanting to know facts complaining. So as someone who buys material from overseas, I am more than a litte interested in the potential trade positions we might end up in. Knowledge is power, forewarned is forearmed etc. An example of this is knowing that trading under WTO rules isn't the golden safety net it is made out to be, or that it is likely to take more than 2 years to negotiate favourable trade deals with anyone, let alone everyone. Personally I think that kind of knowledge is important, don't you?
> 
> As I can sense fingers heading towards the phrase "Well, the _fact_ is we're leaving the EU!!!" I'll beat you to that particular stuck record. People are still allowed to be worried and unsure, especially if they know of people who have already lost jobs as a direct result of the referendum result, or are likely to if and when Brexit actually goes ahead. And being worried and unsure doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how they might have voted, either. Sure, you can tell them to deal with it, get over it, grow a pair and embrace the future you moaning minnie, but that's not exactly kind or compassionate, is it? And certainly not likely to induce positivity!


More if you have many mouths to feed. Right now. Not in 2025. Those are precious years for your family and if Brexit deprives you of work it deprives your children of future they might have had if you could afford their education.
Plus just food, clothes, heating, petrol...









Maybe if I were single with secure job or better : Pension I would nor worry...
But I do. 
I cannot unhave my family. Their future looks uncertain now...

Many other mothers feel just like me.
Worried.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> @KittenKong now do you see why Corbyn wouldn't be a good PM
> 
> He seems to not know what he is doing and his speech seemed all over the place today. He changes his mind alot as well.
> 
> Never liked the guy myself.


I mentioned earlier my support for Labour ended following the EU referendum. My loyalties now lie with a party north of the Border.

I make no apologies for Labour.

Having said that this doesn't mean I rate May any better, on the contrary.

It pains me to say this but I had more respect for Thatcher than May.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Perhaps she has realised she doesn't have the support for a 2nd indyref.

Hopefully she'll give everyones ears a break from the threats for the rest of the year and 8 months or so (as she intends to have a vote for independence in the autumn of next year 2018)?

*Nicola Sturgeon rules out indyref in 2017*

*Scotland's first minister has explicitly ruled out holding a second referendum on independence this year.*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38560646?client=ms-android-motorola

If she loses will she step down like Alex Salmond did?

I hope the rest of the UK taxpayers aren't paying for there referendum again (England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar) if so can we have a referendum to ask if we want to pay for it?  Reason being we can't vote in there referendum and Scotland has not paid the UK back for the last referendum they had on independence.

Have they got permission from the UK Government and UK Parliament and House of Lords for a second independence referendum which they are meant to do? The Government has already said no to it but perhaps it should go to a vote in the UK Parliament so MP's can have a vote on it which means a bill has to pass through the UK Parliament and the House of Lords before she can have her referendum.

I wonder how many court cases there will be to stop Scotland from having its independence in a case that Scotland does vote to leave?

Is Sturgeon aware that the UK pumps more trade into Scotland than the EU as Scotland doesn't have any trade deals with the EU, the UK as a whole does?

Is she aware that leaving the UK will mean they don't get automatic membership of the EU and can't trade with the UK unless she strikes a trade deal with the UK; and the UK could charge Scotland excessive amounts of money to leave the UK; and will Scotland pay what they owe the UK back and all UK subsidies will end which Scotland heavily rely on? This is what you call cuting yourself off from the UK and EU big time at least the UK can trade with the UK either way, Scotland would have to start a fresh with the EU (as it has no trade deals with the EU, the UK does as a whole) eg become an EU member or trade under WTO rules to start with until a Scotland EU trade deal is struck. Oh I forgot Scotland isn't a member of the WTO either so would have to apply to join this as well as the UK as a whole is listed.

The North Sea Oil fields also don't belong to Scotland, nor do the Trident bases in Scotland and the UK fishing grounds around Scotland.

Will the 2nd Independence Referendum be legally binding or none binding?

I forgot the hard border there would be, no freedom of movement of people, goods or services with the EU and England and Northern Ireland. So going from Scotland to London or anywhere else in the England, Northern Ireland, Wales or Europe would mean having to be stopped to have there passports checked to make sure they have a visa and paid for taxes etc for the movement of goods.

Does leaving the UK still sound attractive to Scotland as they would be leaving the EU at the same time? The UK would still be members of the EU until the middle of 2019 or later, oh and Scotland will be cut out of any trade deal the UK gets with the EU if Scotland vote to leave the UK.

The UK may consider a free trade deal with Scotland after it has left but after the UK has negotiated a free trade deal with the EU, Australia, New Zealand, America etc, etc.

If you thought there's hard times ahead for the UK, there definitely would be for Scotland if they leave the UK and the EU by default. I haven't mentioned Scotland having no independent currency to trade with and economic risks and having no trade market status or passports that would just say Scotland on them and nothing else. Scotland would be in a worse situation than the rest of the UK.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I thought my last paragraph was a positive stance for the UK as the UK will be seeking its own trade deals separate from the EU is correct isn't it and the UK is open for business isn't it and not inward thinking but outward looking?


Once again ignoring the negotiating process of trade deals and what they actually are. Great that 50 countries considering it considering many of those already have trade deals with the EU. Difference is many of those will be less preferential than the current deals with the EU. That means more negatives apply to the UK.



> The proof is there that the UK economy has not stagnanted but is instead out performing other countries on the world stage. I would worry if the economy wasn't growing but it is growing. The pound may have slumped but that doesn't mean anything but you don't seem to grasp that.


Actually the UK has lost ground to some other countries due to the currency but again, you'll ignore that.



> The UK markets are performing exceptionally well and have been the highest in recent months than they have ever been in fact breaking records since the markets started keeping records


Unless it's the UK companies which have nowhere near the growth of the multinationals on the FTSE. A fact you ignored last time I mentioned it, threatening to leave the thread again.

Ireland border:


stockwellcat said:


> Here it is it's called the Common Travel Area agreement:
> _...
> In the event of UK decision to withdraw, it is to be *presumed* that the underlying reasons for the common travel area would continue to apply. The political consensus in support of the common travel area in Northern Ireland would probably be an especially significant factor._


Important word highlighted. If UK wants to get rid of free movement however that will not be possible. You'll need border controls either on the NI/ireland border or UK ports etc. Ireland will still retain free movement and you don't want an influx of illegal immigrants do you  Major gap in your understanding there I think.

Beer cost:


Honeys mum said:


> Surely that's not a bad thing cheekyscript . See the article below , maybe it will help the NHS save money. Bearing in mind these are the figures quoted in 2014.


More to the idea of pubs than simply drinking though. The loss of pubs as a social benefit is something which has a negative impact on society unfortunately. Most people who go to pubs socially are not a drain on the NHS.



Honeys mum said:


> For all you remainers. A 100 reasons to embrace Brexit video.(if its worked that is)


The amount of BS in that video is amazing.



stockwellcat said:


> Well the businesses based in London aren't moving on mass out of the UK. Looked pretty busy in the City this morning. Oh I forgot the Tube Strike


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/hsbc-brexit-paris-london_uk_5874c5a8e4b0961f09390328



Honeys mum said:


> The housing market seems to be doing well also.


Prices were supposed to come down according to the leave campaign.



stockwellcat said:


> The UK trade markets are on the up at the moment (Close of business today the FTSE broke another record 7,237.77) and yes the pound has dropped slightly but so far with other slumps in the pound in recent history it has bounced back, I would worry if it didn't bounce back. You will find the pound will also improve when trade deals are struck around the world after we have left the EU. The EU has struggled for a very long time, well since the last financial crash at least and has only just started improving just before the end of 2016.


Again you keep pushing this despite the fact the FTSE is dependent not on UK business but internationals with UK companies not doing anywhere near as well as the FTSE 100.

Still find it amazing people are still hanging hopes on 2 basic things trade deals with other countries, ignoring what trade deals are, how they are negotiated and the fact the UK economy hasn't fallen flat being unable to show the benefits of Brexit in that growth. Oh I forget, McDonalds moving headquarters to UK, Snapchat apparantly doing the same. Both companies potentially looking at using the UK as a tax haven to avoid EU regulation, Both potentially having a single office in the UK as a administration office. I'm sure they will not arrange a backroom meeting with the government about tax prefering visible accountability. What generally happens in tax havens, rich get richer, poor get poorer.



stockwellcat said:


> Oh didn't you know the EU want a free trade deal with the US as well it's called TTIP?


Tell me stockwellcat. Did the UK government oppose TTIP at all? (Answer is no, they were perfectly happy to have it, not even ring fencing things like the NHS). EU want a trade deal oon their terms, US wants TTIP. Plenty of areas in the EU oppose it. Even the canadian version is watered down in the final agreement and it's on a trial basis.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> The predictions are coming true of a one party nation


I really don't think that is anything to smile about.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Want to really real working class leader?.Right now BBC4.Walesa.
Going to see if they put some original footage....


----------



## kimthecat

@Goblin Come back to the UK and take over as Leader of the Labour party. You'd do a much better job than Jer- Jer. In fact you'd do a much better job than most of the MPs in all parties. ! 

@cheekyscrip Missed it . . A good man !


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> @Goblin Come back to the UK and take over as Leader of the Labour party. You'd do a much better job than Jer- Jer. In fact you'd do a much better job than most of the MPs in all parties. !
> 
> @cheekyscrip Missed it . . A good man !


Surely can be got online?

Good film. This is UK problem: Real leaders.
Like Havel, Mandela, Walesa or decent like Tusk.

People with more interest in the people than party donors.
Nowadays politicians are loudspeakers for party donors and they want to win election and get highest possible post for themselves.
No matter at what costs, what gamble , what lies.

Speeches ready for both camps. Like BJ or TM.
Or Corbyn.
Tory donors do good business and rather have no EU watching their hands...

Labour is finished.

LibDems after Clegg?

UKiP allnuts?

People like Jo Cox do not rise through the ranks...

I think democracy is an illusion if really there is a choice of party donors sponsored puppets and clowns...

Cameron tried to please party donors, took a gamble knowing the costs...just to win election...

All he has done to get country out of 2008 crisis he lost and much more.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Po
> Funny thing that I never trusted the bugger...if you remember my posts....
> 
> So much for his integrity. I can say " I told you so"...
> Wonder how all the young people, students, eco warriors who supported him like some pf members here feel like?
> After paying membership to vote for him. Believing his stand on Brexit was "honest" if lukewarm...
> 
> Betrayed?
> I think he betrayed them already before referendum.
> 
> Now that he is elected again he is showing his true colours: Jumped on Brexit bandwagon hoping to scrap some votes from UKIP.
> What a cheek. For his hardcore supporters
> Do not trust commies. Never. Bl**dy radishes...
> 
> *Is there anyone but SNP with any integrity left?*


*"Is there anyone but SNP with any integrity left?"*

Yes, Caroline Lucas & the Green Party lol. Although I haven't got round to listening to Corbyn's speech myself, I trust Caroline Lucas to give a honest interpretation of it - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...een-party-brexit-caroline-lucas-a7518731.html.

I do understand why Labour are afraid. I live in a labour strong hold & I can tell you immigration is a big issue round here, labour are loosing traditional labour voters to UKIP because they believe labour are too soft on immigration. Corbyn is under pressure from all sides, but he should not have succumbed to the tories immigration rhetoric.

That said others are interpreting what he said differently. Saying he has set out a clear, anti-racist framework for post brexit migration policy.

Apparently he said this - & I cannot find fault with that.










We've got this brexitshambles an NHS in meltdown yet Corbyns speech appears to be the main topic - another convenient distraction. As someone else said; It would be great if our media could hold the GOVERNMENT to account rather than the opposition. http://www.thecanary.co/2017/01/10/...eech-theresa-mays-government-just-screwed-us/


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> *"Is there anyone but SNP with any integrity left?"*
> 
> Yes, Caroline Lucas & the Green Party lol. Although I haven't got round to listening to Corbyn's speech myself, I trust Caroline Lucas to give a honest interpretation of it - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...een-party-brexit-caroline-lucas-a7518731.html.
> 
> I do understand why Labour are afraid. I live in a labour strong hold & I can tell you immigration is a big issue round here, labour are loosing traditional labour voters to UKIP because they believe labour are too soft on immigration. Corbyn is under pressure from all sides, but he should not have succumbed to the tories immigration rhetoric.
> 
> That said others are interpreting what he said differently. Saying he has set out a clear, anti-racist framework for post brexit migration policy.
> 
> Apparently he said this - & I cannot find fault with that.
> 
> View attachment 297092
> 
> 
> We've got this brexitshambles an NHS in meltdown yet Corbyns speech appears to be the main topic - another convenient distraction. As someone else said; It would be great if our media could hold the GOVERNMENT to account rather than the opposition. http://www.thecanary.co/2017/01/10/...eech-theresa-mays-government-just-screwed-us/


Yes, maybe he is scared of losing votes to UKIP, but in doing so has alienated the other 65% of Labour voters such as myself who voted remain.

By succumbing to the Tories immigration rhetoric then stating a clear anti racist framework is confusing to say the least!

Caroline Lucas is absolutely spot on!


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Want to really real working class leader?.Right now BBC4.Walesa.
> Going to see if they put some original footage....


I'll have to see it. Funny though at the time how the UK media and politicians rightly praised Walesa yet were determined to fight the unions locally!


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I'll have to see it. Funny though at the time how the UK media and politicians rightly praised Walesa yet were determined to fight the unions locally!


Nothing better tha free unions...in another country!!!
Poland owes a lot to Reagan and Thatcher. Without them negotiating Polish debts ( caused not by lazy Polish but by sending our products at bargain price or free to Soviet Union and Cuba etc...) and rubbish wasteful economic system.

Interesting that Walesa never clung to power and never succumbed to populism.
He also respected his academic advisers and listened to them.

Shows that one leader can unite intelligentsia and grass root workers.
Learn Labour!!!

At the same time the City is getting anxious.
Demanding three years transition period or else it will fall like Jenga ...
On small scale it is going on here...


----------



## rona

"Dear Lord, the past year have been very tough for me. You've taken -

My favourite sportsman Muhammad Ali

My favourite actresses Debbie Reynolds and Jean Alexander

My favourite actor, Robert Vaughn

My favourite comedian, Victoria Wood

My favourite musicians, Rick Pafait and David Bowie

And finally, my favourite presenter Sir Terry Wogan

So Lord, I just wanted you to know that my favourite politicians are -

Tony Blair, Diane Abbot, Micheal Gove, Donald J Trump and that stupid cow from Scotland

(idea stolen from elsewhere)


----------



## kimthecat

@rona I'd like to add martin Mcguinnes as a "favourite"


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> "Dear Lord, the past year have been very tough for me. You've taken -
> 
> My favourite sportsman Muhammad Ali
> 
> My favourite actresses Debbie Reynolds and Jean Alexander
> 
> My favourite actor, Robert Vaughn
> 
> My favourite comedian, Victoria Wood
> 
> My favourite musicians, Rick Pafait and David Bowie
> 
> And finally, my favourite presenter Sir Terry Wogan
> 
> So Lord, I just wanted you to know that my favourite politicians are -
> 
> Tony Blair, Diane Abbot, Micheal Gove, Donald J Trump and that stupid cow from Scotland
> 
> (idea stolen from elsewhere)


I am offended on behalf of cattle, and Scots. Both very good sort if on shaggy side a little.

I know karma is always coming but it could pick up some pace in case of Gove, BJ, Nige, DT, Rupert Murdoch, Phillip Green, Rajoy, Margallo and Putin...
They could all be put in one cauldron in hellfire.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oodwill-home-office-theresa-may-a7521991.html

This is disgusting. Can this vile government sink any lower than this?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Some good news 

*Five signs this week that the UK economy is thriving post-Brexit*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...g-post-brexit/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola

*The EU has more to lose from hard Brexit than the UK, Mark Carney says*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...k-carney-says/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola

*Britain's finance industry drops demands for passporting after Brexit*
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN14W008?client=ms-android-motorola

*The City has nothing to fear from Brexit*
http://ft.com/content/aa76b168-a5b9-11e6-8898-79a99e2a4de6?client=ms-android-motorola

*Brexit U-turn: Bank of England boss says EUROPE needs to fear exit as UK risk subsides*
http://www.express.co.uk/finance/ci...lect-Committee/amp?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## KittenKong

You hear great Brexit news all the time in certain media, how Bojo and Gove WILL honour their pre referendum pledges to Sun readers and how Brexit will save lives.

Unless they want people to remain in the UK in Berlin Wall fashion I don't consider this good news at all:


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You hear great Brexit news all the time in certain media, how Bojo and Gove WILL honour their pre referendum pledges to Sun readers and how Brexit will save lives.
> 
> Unless they want people to remain in the UK in Berlin Wall fashion I don't consider this good news at all:
> View attachment 297176


Ah but I did put links to the Financial Times and Reuters. So I guess now Mark Carney the Governer of the Bank of England falls into the same camp as Boris by remainers standards as he has given good Brexit News to the UK 

I don't know if you spotted the mistake in the article you quoted above. I did?

The EU won't have 28 members but 27 after we leave


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Ah but I did put links to the Financial Times and Reuters. So I guess now Mark Carney the Governer of the Bank of England falls into the same camp as Boris by remainers standards as he has given good Brexit News to the UK


I thought he would qualify as an 'expert' though, and therefore be distrusted by Leavers?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> I thought he would qualify as an 'expert' though, and therefore be distrusted by Leavers?


Ah but now Mr Carney is going off what is actually happening and not forecasts dreamt up before the referendum to scare everyone into voting remain because the previous Prime Minster told them to  

Edited: The difference now is Mark Carney is talking sense and is going off what is happening facts not off predictions.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Ah but I did put links to the Financial Times and Reuters. So I guess now Mark Carney the Governer of the Bank of England falls into the same camp as Boris by remainers standards as he has given good Brexit News to the UK


I thought he would qualify as an 'expert' though, and therefore not to be trusted by Leave supporters? 

Meh, double post. Rotten network connection here today, keeps hanging!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> I thought he would qualify as an 'expert' though, and therefore not to be trusted by Leave supporters?


Answered your question above your repeat submission of the same question


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Ah but now Mr Carney is going off what is actually happening and not forecasts dreamt up before the referendum to scare everyone into voting remain because the previous Prime Minster told them to


So he has a _working _crystal ball now? As we haven't actually begun the pocess of leaving yet, and all, so technically this is all still the prelude and the main event hasn't even started to warm up yet


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> So he has a _working _crystal ball now? As we haven't actually begun the pocess of leaving yet, and all, so technically this is all still the prelude and the main event hasn't even started to warm up yet


He is presenting what is happening to the markets and economy etc right now in the UK and not some predicted mumbo jumbo prediction. The facts are proving that the UK is stronger economically as first thought. You don't need a crystal ball when the facts are in front of you. He has seen these facts evolve in the last six months.


----------



## KittenKong

"The EU has more to lose than the UK" or indeed vice versa does not relate to good news as far as I'm concerned.

It's everything I detest about Brexit and the Nationalism agenda, "We couldn't care less about you as long as we're ok".


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> He is presenting what is happening to the markets and economy etc right now in the UK and not some predicted mumbo jumbo prediction. The facts are proving that the UK is stronger economically as first thought. You don't need a crystal ball when the facts are in front of you. He has seen these facts evolve in the last six months.


Which still doesn't tell us what the future will be like, does it? There are far more variables than there are certainties after all. Something unexpected could happen tomorrow and change everything, same as ever. And whilst it's fine to expect the best (great trade deals negotiated and finalised in record time etc.), it is also prudent to prepare for the worst (mainly unfavourable/few/no trade deals negotiated before the two years are up), don't you think?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Which still doesn't tell us what the future will be like, does it? There are far more variables than there are certainties after all. Something unexpected could happen tomorrow and change everything, same as ever. And whilst it's fine to expect the best (great trade deals negotiated and finalised in record time etc.), it is also prudent to prepare for the worst (mainly unfavourable/few/no trade deals negotiated before the two years are up), don't you think?


Then we come back to what is Brexitiers have said all along. Wait and see  So far the opposite has happened regarding the economy etc.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> "The EU has more to lose than the UK" or indeed vice versa does not relate to good news as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> It's everything I detest about Brexit and the Nationalism agenda, *"We couldn't care less about you as long as we're ok"*.


That's how the world operates. As long as my country is fine and I am ok...


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Then we come back to what is Brexitiers have said all along. Wait and see  So far the opposite has happened regarding the economy etc.


<laconic mode> *So far* </laconic mode>


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> <laconic mode> *So far* </laconic mode>


What's Iaconic mode BTW?


----------



## stockwellcat.

See todays headlines like these make me glad the UK is leaving the EU:
*'I am a winner' Juncker boasts he's made march to federal EU 'irreversible' despite Brexit*

*'We need MORE power!' EU's Brexit negotiator (Guy Verhofstadt) r**eveals plot for complete control of Europe*


----------



## samuelsmiles

This is a very interesting read.

*Brexit doesn't have to be a disaster for universities*
https://www.theguardian.com/higher-...doesnt-have-to-be-a-disaster-for-universities
"There are almost three times as many foreign students in the UK from outside the EU as from within it."

"Even Universities UK now says that "universities can thrive outside the European Union"

etc etc..... 
https://www.theguardian.com/higher-...doesnt-have-to-be-a-disaster-for-universities
https://www.theguardian.com/higher-...doesnt-have-to-be-a-disaster-for-universities


----------



## Jesthar

Stockwellcat said:


> What's Iaconic mode BTW?


Ah. Not well up on your Ancient Greek history, then? Or etymology? 

"_IF_"


----------



## Jesthar

Oh, for goodness sake! Blasted duplicates!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Ah. Not well up on your Ancient Greek history, then? Or etymology?
> 
> "_IF_"


Don't mind being asked once


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Oh, for goodness sake! Blasted duplicates!


But being asked the same question twice 

I will answer you know


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Ah. Not well up on your Ancient Greek history, then? Or etymology?
> 
> "_IF_"


Back to your question. No not clued up on ancient Greek  Will look it up on Google 

Now please stop the long words I can't understand and have to look up 'etymology' 

Haha etymology = late middle English


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Don't mind being asked once


Honestly, I think our IT department has replaced our high bandwidth fibre feed with string and tin cans today...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Honestly, I think our IT department has replaced our high bandwidth fibre feed with string and tin cans today...


Cut backs hehehe

Tin cans and string to communicate instead of brandband


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> <laconic mode> *So far* </laconic mode>


Iaconic = 
(of a person, speech, or style of writing) using very few words.
"his laconic reply suggested a lack of interest in the topic

Ok I know you have lack of interest in the topic


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Iaconic =
> (of a person, speech, or style of writing) using very few words.
> "his laconic reply suggested a lack of interest in the topic
> 
> Ok I know you have lack of interest in the topic


Cheeky! I was referring to a specific incident, hence 'IF'


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Cheeky! I was referring to a specific incident, hence 'IF'


I was trying to lighten things up hehe. I know what you meant


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> This is a very interesting read.
> 
> *Brexit doesn't have to be a disaster for universities*


Key point, government must stay out, which means students not part of immigration numbers. Something which has been pushed for even before the referendum which May has refused to accept. It also goes against the anti-immigration rhetoric of the leave campaign


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Punishing Britain with tough Brexit deal will only inflict big damage on EU's economy, Philip Hammond tells Germany*

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/259459...tells-germany/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola

Oh what's that I hear from remainers what... Oh yeah Philip Hammond joins there list in the Boris and Carney camp because he is telling the German Chancellor what will actually happen


----------



## stockwellcat.

More news the remain camp won't want to hear there, so called experts U Turning:

*Britain's economy kept BOOMING at end of 2016 as more experts U-turn on Brexit impact*
http://www.express.co.uk/finance/ci...turn-on-impact/amp?client=ms-android-motorola

James Warren, from the National Institute for Economic and Social Research (NIESR), said: "Our estimates suggest the economy grew by 2 per cent in 2016, in line with the long run potential growth rate of the UK economy."

A host of key economic indicators beat expectations at the end of 2016, suggesting strong growth.

Industrial production grew by 2.1 per cent in November from the previous month, according to data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

Manufacturing, construction and services output was also higher than expected in December, according to the closely-watched Markit Purchasing Managers Index (PMI).

Official estimates of growth in the fourth quarter will be published by the ONS at the end of the month.

This week, Bank of England Governor Mark Carney admitted that Brexit now looked to be a bigger risk for Europe than the UK.

It signalled a major U-turn for the Bank, which had warned of a hit if Britain was to vote to leave.

The deluge of positive economic news in the months after the referendum, have prompted leading organisations to re-forecast growth up for Britain in 2016.

---------

Jonathan Loynes from Capital Economics said: "Our forecast - adopted the day after the EU referendum - that the UK economy will grow by 1.5 per cent in 2017 has looked gradually less out on a limb as the incoming data have surprised on the upside.

"The consensus forecast has risen steadily towards our projection from its low of 0.5 per cent seen last July. "

He added: "We have concluded that our forecast of 1.5 per cent growth this year now looks a bit too low as a central projection and we have therefore nudged it up to 1.8 per cent.

"This puts some fresh air back between us and the consensus forecast, though we suspect that the latter will continue to rise over the coming months."


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> I don't know if you spotted the mistake in the article you quoted above. I did?
> 
> The EU won't have 28 members but 27 after we leave


Depends on whether you include Turkey.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Theresa May to deliver long-awaited Brexit speech on Tuesday*

Theresa May will set out the government's plans for negotiating Brexit on Tuesday in a keenly awaited speech that will be pored over by EU politicians and financial markets.

The prime minister has been under intense pressure to offer more details about her approach in advance of triggering article 50, the formal process for leaving the EU, which she has said she will do before the end of March.

May's government is still awaiting a supreme court judgment on whether it must consult parliament before triggering article 50. The verdict is expected later in the month. If the high court ruling is upheld, the government is expected to table a brief bill, authorising ministers to press ahead.

http://theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/12/theresa-may-to-deliver-long-awaited-brexit-speech-on-tuesday?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## KittenKong

A "Land of Hope and Glory Brexit" by any chance?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Businesses have been advised to prepare for a so called hard Brexit in the city of London. This should really be relabelled Brexit or to leave the EU as this is what it actually means.


----------



## CuddleMonster

stockwellcat said:


> More news *the remain camp won't want to hear* there, so called experts U Turning:
> 
> *Britain's economy kept BOOMING at end of 2016 as more experts U-turn on Brexit impact*
> http://www.express.co.uk/finance/ci...turn-on-impact/amp?client=ms-android-Motorola


Why do you think the remain camp won't want to hear this? You seem to have the bizarre idea that anyone who voted remain did so because they want the worst for their country. I expect most voters voted the way they did, whether leave or remain, because they believed it was the best for their country. Therefore, most voters, whichever way they voted, should be pleased with good news about Britain and saddened by bad news about Britain...


----------



## stockwellcat.

CuddleMonster said:


> Why do you think the remain camp won't want to hear this? You seem to have the bizarre idea that anyone who voted remain did so because they want the worst for their country. I expect most voters voted the way they did, whether leave or remain, because they believed it was the best for their country. Therefore, most voters, whichever way they voted, should be pleased with good news about Britain and saddened by bad news about Britain...


I take back my comment above and correct it with this.

It's not a bizzar idea back track and read how @Goblin @KittenKong @cheekyscrip have been reacting and what they have been saying. Spouting out bad news at every opportunity and as soon as some good news comes along they put it down. I am very pleased the UK markets have reacted positively and the economy is reacting the way it is and growing because it proves all the scaremongering that they have been put on here since before the referendum has been proven wrong thus far, even the "experts" have u-turned on there doom and gloom forecasts as the facts have proven otherwise to there predictions/opinions. Even the Chancellor of Germany has been warned about giving the UK a hard time during the Brexit talks as it could affect the EU economy negatively so hopefully some amicable deal can be made to avoid this both in the UK and the EU eg let the UK leave which is well within our rights to do so as it is enshrined in EU treaties.

Any way I am glad most people are happy with this good news regardless of what side they were on during the referendum. At least we can all move on from this soon and get on with leaving the EU.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> It's not a buzzard idea back track and read how @Goblin @KittenKong @cheekyscrip have been reacting and what they have been saying.


Failing to acknowledge several points. You yourself haven't been able to point out how BREXIT has contributed to growth, only that it hasn't happened as the remain campaign predicted. Remain campaign took the worst, not the average predictions and I've freely acknowledged that. They didn't outright lie unlike the leave campaign. However we haven't left yet and haven't handed in Article 50. We've had meaninless spin from the government, Brexit is Brexit, deal will be red white and blue... So what would growth be if the referendum result was different? FTSE investment would probably be down as lets face it, currency means foreign investors can buy shares for less. The actual FTSE gain however isn't really a reflection of the UK as it driven by multinational companies working outside the UK. The government is still expecting a budget shortfall of 122 billion pounds over the next five years. Wonder what that will be in a couple of years time. The cabinet is divided with Liam Fox, secretary of state for international trade, recently saying that Britain may ultimately remain a partial member of the EU customs union. We have Boris travelling to America as the UK is now "first in the trade deal queue" while being fobbed off with the presedent elect's son-in-law rather than the man himself. That's how important we are viewed.

If you listen to to those who push for Brexit you encounter a united front of optimism where logic and facts are suspended, optimism trumps those who are experts in their fields such as those who actually know how trade deals are negotiated and work. Everything will somehow go well as "we voted and that means it will work", along with anything which can be twisted to look good rather than the problems which exist when we do actually leave even if those things would have happened regardless. Why has it taken over 6 months.. because leave promised what couldn't be delivered and that is still true.

On the back of that we have the government which has tried and it's looking as though it as failed to skip parliamentary debate through use of the "royal perogative". We have backroom deals being made with companies without accountabilty or oversight. The rich are gaining, the average joe in the street having to put up with rising prices. We have have less accountability for our own government which is influenced by companies and media more obviously than before the referendum and we haven't started to leave yet.

So growth is to be applauded. It's not a direct reasoning to say Brexit is a good plan for the future.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I take back my comment above and correct it with this.
> 
> It's not a bizzar idea back track and read how @Goblin @KittenKong @cheekyscrip have been reacting and what they have been saying. Spouting out bad news at every opportunity and as soon as some good news comes along they put it down. I am very pleased the UK markets have reacted positively and the economy is reacting the way it is and growing because it proves all the scaremongering that they have been put on here since before the referendum has been proven wrong thus far, even the "experts" have u-turned on there doom and gloom forecasts as the facts have proven otherwise to there predictions/opinions. Even the Chancellor of Germany has been warned about giving the UK a hard time during the Brexit talks as it could affect the EU economy negatively so hopefully some amicable deal can be made to avoid this both in the UK and the EU eg let the UK leave which is well within our rights to do so as it is enshrined in EU treaties.
> 
> Any way I am glad most people are happy with this good news regardless of what side they were on during the referendum. At least we can all move on from this soon and get on with leaving the EU.


I cannot answer for the others but I see that damage that Brexit brings has not happened yet to full extend but clearly it is going this way...
Pound crashed. 
That is fact .
Prices go up and inflation.
Fact.
Value of export increased but import costs went even higher so national debt is rising. Fact.
Not scaremongering.

Of course I want better future for my family not worse.
But wishful thinking will not get us there.

Brexit is the worst decision since war with America.
Surely many British supported decision about that war and called all who opposed it scaremongers?

I am not happy about sleazy DT but I am not anti American?

I am afraid @stockwellcat that until it hits you on the face you will not see it.

Then who will pay 122 bln for Brexit black hole in the budget?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Failing to acknowledge several points. You yourself haven't been able to point out how BREXIT has contributed to growth, only that it hasn't happened as the remain campaign predicted. Remain campaign took the worst, not the average predictions and I've freely acknowledged that. They didn't outright lie unlike the leave campaign. However we haven't left yet and haven't handed in Article 50. We've had meaninless spin from the government, Brexit is Brexit, deal will be red white and blue... So what would growth be if the referendum result was different? FTSE investment would probably be down as lets face it, currency means foreign investors can buy shares for less. The government is still expecting a budget shortfall of 122 billion pounds over the next five years. The cabinet is divided with Liam Fox, secretary of state for international trade, recently saying that Britain may ultimately remain a partial member of the EU customs union. We have Boris travelling to America as the UK is now "first in the trade deal queue" while being fobbed off with the presedent elect's son-in-law rather than the man himself. That's how important we are viewed.
> 
> If you listen to to those who push for Brexit you encounter a united front of optimism where logic and facts are suspended, optimism trumps those who are experts in their fields such as those who actually know how trade deals are negotiated and work. Everything will somehow go well as "we voted and that means it will work", along with anything which can be twisted to look good rather than the problems which exist when we do actually leave even if those things would have happened regardless.
> 
> On the back of that we have the government which has tried and it's looking as though it as failed to skip parliamentary debate through use of the "royal perogative". We have backroom deals being made with companies without accountabilty or oversight. The rich are gaining, the average joe in the street having to put up with rising prices. We have have less accountability for our own government which is influenced by companies and media more obviously than before the referendum and we haven't started to leave yet.
> 
> So growth is to be applauded. It's not a direct reasoning to say Brexit is a good plan for the future.


It looks as if the vote will be going ahead in Parliament on article 50 as the Government lawyers have told them to prepare for defeat in the supreme court. The draft bill (it has to be a draft bill so it can be amended) on article 50 is ready to pass through Parliament and it is believed TM will present this to Parliament within days after the Supreme Court case verdict to avoid any resentment forming. So again the Government is co-operating which they have to do to abide by the law as it will be a court verdict.
Are you happy with this?
Can we move on from this point you keep happily pointing out?
Doing this will make the referendum legally binding won't it? Even though the UK agreed to join the Common Market, EC, EEC later to be called the EU on a none binding referendum (Oh didn't you know that bit) and therefore it was not legally binding but everyone that voted was told the referendum results would be upheld and that would be the end of this issue even though it went to a none binding referendum again in 1975 and 2016 in which voters where told the Government would uphold and respect the results of both these referendums and act upon the results.

Then we have Gina Millar saying she wants to stop Brexit from happening again by launching a tirade of court cases against the Government. Nowhere does it say the Government has to give Parliament a vote on Article 127 or have I missed this somewhere? It mentions sovereignty surrounding article 50, but this depends though how you interpret this as the Queen is sovereign and gave her permission for the referendum to happen and apparently backed the results even though she wasn't allowed to vote being head of state.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Doing this will make the referendum legally binding won't it? Even though the UK agreed to join the Common Market, EC, EEC later to be called the EU on a none binding referendum (Oh didn't you know that bit) and therefore it was not legally binding.


Well it was decided by parliament unlike the decision to leave, oh you skipped that bit or didn't want to know that. No UK referendum except one has been binding requiring parliament to decide.



> Nowhere does it say the Government has to give Parliament a vote on Article 127 or have I missed this somewhere?


Obviously you haven't looked at why the government protestations on royal perogative failed. Removing the UK using either article affects people's civil liberties/rights (free movement if nothing else). Therefore it requires parliamentary debate and vote. A PM cannot, thankfully, change people's civil rights without parliament.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Well it was decided by parliament unlike the decision to leave, oh you skipped that bit or didn't want to know that. No UK referendum except one has been binding requiring parliament to decide. The results on all three referendums where agreed in Parliament to be respected and upheld and acted on the results of these none binding referendums.
> 
> Obviously you haven't looked at why the government protestations on royal perogative failed. Removing the UK using either article affects people's civil liberties/rights (free movement if nothing else) requires parliamentary debate and vote.


But how does it remove people's civil liberties when the UK entered the Common Market, EC, EEC later to be called the EU on a none binding referendum? It wasn't legal as you keep saying about this referendum.

You ignored this bit:
Even though the UK agreed to join the Common Market, EC, EEC later to be called the EU on a none binding referendum (Oh didn't you know that bit) and therefore it was not legally binding but everyone that voted was told the referendum results would be upheld and that would be the end of this issue even though it went to a none binding referendum again in 1975 and 2016 in which voters where told the Government would uphold and respect the results of both these referendums and act upon the results.

Obviously you keep ignoring this:
This referendum (2016) was agreed and voted by MPs at every stage during the referendum rules being passed through Parliament and approved by the Queen.

The MPs knew what would happen in the case of a leave vote:

In the event of a "Leave" vote, the government would decide whether, when, and under what circumstances, the UK would invoke Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union to begin a two-year process of negotiations for Britain to leave the EU.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> But how does it remove people's civil liberties when the UK entered the Common Market, EC, EEC later to be called the EU on a none binding referendum? It wasn't legal.


Any referendum is backed by parliamentary debate and that includes the referendum of joining. Also parliament was consulted when terms changed joining the EEC and even the treaty of Maastricht. Try again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Any referendum is backed by parliamentary debate and that includes the referendum of joining. Also parliament was consulted when terms changed joining the EEC and even the treaty of Maastricht. Try again.


Obviously you keep ignoring this:
This referendum (2016) was agreed and voted by MPs at every stage during the referendum rules being passed through Parliament and approved by the Queen.

The MPs knew what would happen in the case of a leave vote:

*In the event of a "Leave" vote, the government would decide whether, when, and under what circumstances, the UK would invoke Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union to begin a two-year process of negotiations for Britain to leave the EU.*

So again MPs got to vote on the referendum act 2015. The MPs gave permission to the Government to act on a leave result so excludes Parliament at any stage in my view as the agreed to the above sentence.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Obviously you keep ignoring this:
> This referendum (2016) was agreed and voted by MPs at every stage during the referendum rules being passed through Parliament and approved by the Queen.
> 
> The MPs knew what would happen in the case of a leave vote:


So back to the DM script then. Yep parliament voted that the public would vote in a non-binding referendum as no provision was made to make it binding. That was known before the referendum. You've ignored the evidence which previously was provided. Simply saying otherwise doesn't make it true. If you want to provide evidence *parliament voted* other than for a non-binding referendum please do so as you ignore evidence showing otherwise.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So back to the DM script then. Yep parliament voted that the public would vote in a non-binding referendum as no provision was made to make it binding. That was known before the referendum. You've ignored the evidence which previously was provided. Simply saying otherwise doesn't make it true.


Ok we have our differences on this but don't get annoyed if the Supreme Court case by luck of fate turns in favour of the Government as it would have been a legal decision.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So back to the DM script then. Yep parliament voted that the public would vote in a non-binding referendum as no provision was made to make it binding. That was known before the referendum. You've ignored the evidence which previously was provided. Simply saying otherwise doesn't make it true. If you want to provide evidence *parliament voted* other than for a non-binding referend please do so as you ignore evidence showing otherwise.


Parliament also voted for a none binding referendum to join the Common Market, EC, EEC, EU. Again wasn't legal Referendum.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So back to the DM script then. Yep parliament voted that the public would vote in a non-binding referendum as no provision was made to make it binding. That was known before the referendum. You've ignored the evidence which previously was provided. Simply saying otherwise doesn't make it true. If you want to provide evidence *parliament voted* other than for a non-binding referendum please do so as you ignore evidence showing otherwise.


The above highlighted text was in the referendum act 2015 it wasn't called the none binding Referendum act 2015 was it. There's your proof.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The above highlighted text was in the referendum act 2015 it wasn't called the none binding Referendum act 2015 was it. There's your proof.


No UK referendum is binding without special provisions. Only one UK referendum has been binding in 2011. Parliament uses referendums to influence voting and discussions. Again, try again supporting your comments with actual facts. Being non-binding doesn't make any referendum illegal.

Let's make it even easier for you:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...ory-eu-referendum_uk_581f054ae4b09d57a9a8c62f

Think if Farage actually admits it's not legally binding you can.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Any way moving on from all of this let's see what TM, BJ and DD have to say on Tuesday 18th January 2017, again keeping there promise to reveal the outline of what Brexit means.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Any way moving on from all of this let's see what TM, BJ and DD have to say on Tuesday 18th January 2017, again keeping there promise to reveal the outline of what Brexit means.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
altho i must say, i despise Descartes -
he was the very cause of more than a century of horrific suffering for nonhuman animals, due to the scientific community's wholehearted embrace of his labeling of nonhumans as "biological machines" -
incapable of feeling, thought, or emotion, & thus unable to feel pain, experience depression, suffer, etc.
Live dissections went on without yet-to-be invented anaesthesia; terrible experiments were conducted that caused untold pain, & often due TO THE SHOCK caused by uncontrolled pain, the results were useless.
Many animals died in vain, their lives ended with no knowledge added to our understanding.
.
If he had limited himself to mere philosophy as it applies to human minds, not to nonhuman bodies, minds, & yes, emotions, much needless suffering could have been avoided.

He's anathema to me - he was an unempathic, hard, narrow-minded misogynist.
How different our world might have been, if he had not been abandoned as a toddler.
.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Interesting now in this Goldenwatergate how the relationship with UK will be?
After accusations that British intelligence knew or is behind the dossier?

Back of the queue and beyond?

Just asking...

@cheeky ducks and runs under the Rock...


----------



## Goblin

Think our true position was highlighted when Boris was fobbed off with a son-in-law whilst in the States


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-theresa-may-illegal-article-50-a7526126.html


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 297230


That is one of the best cartoons I've seen Cheeky. Everything is such a mess because experts are being dismissed.

Experts only count if they say what certain people want to hear.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is great news:
*UK and New Zealand plan free trade deal after Brexit*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38608716?client=ms-android-motorola

After the EU threatened that the ECJ will have jurisdiction over the UK for years after Brexit happens. The Prime Minister responded:
*AT LONG LAST: Theresa May to pledge ECJ will have NO influence over UK after Brexit*
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/75...e-Michael-Gove/amp?client=ms-android-motorola

With this kind of news the EU are going to have to stop making threats and try and get a deal with the UK if they want this:
*EU's Brexit chief wants 'special' deal to allow access to the City*
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/europe-special-deal-city-of-london-brexit-talk-michel-barnier-eu-withdrawal-banking-financial-sector-a7526946.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola

Northern Ireland need to sort out there power sharing Government and the deadline I do believe is Tuesday (other wise an election has to happen) to do this (they may enfuriate Brexit supporters as the triggering of article 50 maybe delayed for months whilst the new Government settles in or there is a risk of another election if the first election doesn't go the right way or if there is no power sharing result). I have this nagging feeling what happened in Northern Ireland happened deliberately to stall the triggering of article 50. There internal arguements could have waited until after article 50 is triggered and Martin McGuinness was going to retire due to Ill health any way so could have found his replacement before dramatically quitting to fuel dispute around the ruling Northern Irish First Minister and then she was forced to quit due to pressure. What a mess Northern Irelands Government has made for themselves. If the triggering of article 50 is delayed the EU will be fuming as well. Surely there are legislative agreements in place in the UK Parliament that in the event of such a thing like this happening that the UK Government can make the decision for the devolved Government that is not in power and is dissolved due as a result of internal disagreements within the devolved Government?:
*Brexit: Theresa May's Article 50 plans could be delayed by months due to Stormont crisis legal challenge*
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-northern-ireland-crisis-stormont-assembly-delay-theresa-may-illegal-article-50-a7526126.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola

I have booked Tuesday 17th January 2017 off to watch this live on TV:
*May to deliver Brexit speech next week*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38602678?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-theresa-may-illegal-article-50-a7526126.html
> View attachment 297331


Delayed, not stopped.

Delayed until Northern Irelands dissolved devolved Government sort itself out. Although surely there are fall back legislation in the UK Parliament that the UK Government can make a decision on behalf of the devolved powers dessolved Government? This has deliberately happened in my opinion as I said above in a different post to put article 50 on hold.

The Northern Irish Devolved Government have to sort themselves out quickly. A Tuesday deadline was put on this otherwise they have to trigger an election in Northern Ireland which could result in a second election if it turns out not to be a power sharing devolved Government.

Do you think the EU will be happy there will be a delay?

If the UK Government win the Supreme Court case of course this won't matter what is going on in Northern Ireland as the Government will just use prerogative powers.


----------



## 1290423

Pssst, im still out


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Pssst, im still out


Welcome back. Was going to put a thread up because I hadn't seen you for a while 

Psst I am still definitely out to


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Welcome back. Was going to put a thread up because I hadn't seen you for a while
> 
> Psst I am still definitely out to


Been a bit busy matey xxxz trying to run myself skinny xx


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> This is great news:
> *UK and New Zealand plan free trade deal after Brexit*


Old news back to what we actually really gain and what we "give". What are the likely terms and what actual benefits.



> After the EU threatened that the ECJ will have jurisdiction over the UK for years after Brexit happens. The Prime Minister responded:
> *AT LONG LAST: Theresa May to pledge ECJ will have NO influence over UK after Brexit*


No, it's expected she will say it. Need to read more than the title. "Sources have indicated" is not fact. It's called spin to make you feel better but then that's the leave campaign all over. Then again it means scrapping a method of holding the government accountable for it's actions so wouldn't discount the possibilty. May's already shown she likes being able to make decisions without accountability.



> With this kind of news the EU are going to have to stop making threats and try and get a deal with the UK if they want this:
> *EU's Brexit chief wants 'special' deal to allow access to the City*


Again no evidence only "unpublished minutes". There's unpublished minutes that May isn't going to take the UK out of the EU. More of I want it to be true rather than actual proven facts. If we shout it out it will become true. It is however true that the UK leaving makes both the EU and the UK itself weaker.

*



May to deliver Brexit speech next week

Click to expand...

*Good for you, it will be more spin as she cannot say what will happen in negotiations. Still she can say whatever she wants even if she knows will never get it. That way the fault once again lies with the nasty wasty EU not the government.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Good for you, it will be more spin as she cannot say what will happen in negotiations. Still she can say whatever she wants even if she knows will never get it. That way the fault once again lies with the nasty wasty EU not the government.


http://www.catforums.co.uk/images/16080266_1206407526122561_3008980338694160384_n.mp4
Yes she can. It's called walking out of the negotiations with no deal and brexiting or leaving completely instead of soft brexiting which remainers want.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Yes she can. It's called walking out of the negotiations with no deal and brexiting or leaving completely instead of soft brexiting which remainers want.


Well if we had left when the leavers wanted the country would be in a poor state. Point which is highlighted if you consider even pro-brexit cabinet ministers are pushing for deals rather than simply leaving.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Again no evidence only "unpublished minutes". There's unpublished minutes that May isn't going to take the UK out of the EU. More of I want it to be true rather than actual proven facts. If we shout it out it will become true. It is however true that the UK leaving makes both the EU and the UK itself weaker.


Ermm this newspaper article is on most of the tabloids in the UK today.
*Europe blinks over Brexit talks? Chief Brussels negotiator says 'special relationship' with City of London needed after UK leaves*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-relationship/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola

*Brexit will go ahead with 'NO REVENGE', EU Brexit negotiator admits in LEAKED report*
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/75...ncial-district/amp?client=ms-android-motorola

*EU negotiator wants 'special' deal over access to City post-Brexit*
http://theguardian.com/business/201...o-city-post-brexit?client=ms-android-motorola

Why do you think the EU needs access to the CIty of London? Perhaps because it is the financial hub of the EU, Europe and the World.

http://www.biznews.com/global-inves...brexit-expert/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Ermm this newspaper article is on most of the tabloids in the UK today.


Oh, many newspapers ran a story about Trump and prostitutes in Russia. Does not make it necessarily true. Interesting that the Telegraph title includes a question mark as opposed to stating it as fact.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Oh, many newspapers ran a story about Trump and prostitutes in Russia. Does not make it necessarily true. Interesting that the Telegraph title includes a question mark as opposed to stating it as fact.


It doesn't matter as I said before what anyone says as you have a very negative out look on Brexit and as a result to me starts to mean that you are starting to panick.

Have you looked into doing what these ex Brits have done yet? http://theguardian.com/politics/201...german-citizenship?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> It doesn't matter as I said before what anyone says as you have a very negative out look on Brexit and as a result to me starts to mean that you are starting to panick.


I'm always either panicking or bitter when you don't have facts. Either that or you've had enough of this thread which lasts for around 5 minutes.

You are right I have a negative outlook on Brexit as it is based on lies and scapegoating.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I'm always either panicking or bitter when you don't have facts. Either that or you've had enough of this thread which lasts for around 5 minutes.
> 
> You are right I have a negative outlook on Brexit as it is based on lies and scapegoating.


Not bored with the thread at all.
Bored with the constant finger pointing from certain remainers who think they know everything and put down positive things that happen. Also bored with your arguements. But apart from that I am not bored at all.
Also over the many months you have chosen to pick on me on this thread have proven quite alot of things about your arguementiveness but one thing hasn't changed... You haven't changed my mind and I am still happy to be in the leave/out camp of this whole debate that you won't let go of.

Have you looked into doing what these ex British Expats have done yet? http://theguardian.com/politics/201...german-citizenship?client=ms-android-motorola it would solve your problem about wanting to stay in the EU by doing what they done in the article on mentioned on this post.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Also over the many months you have chosen to pick on me on this thread have proven quite alot of things about your arguementiveness


No, I picked on your arguments along with others who decided to vote leave. Try again.



> Have you looked into doing what these ex British Expats have done yet? http://theguardian.com/politics/201...german-citizenship?client=ms-android-motorola


Why? Being against Brexit is a far cry from not being a patriot. I'm proud to be British and will stay British. Do know from looking into it for my daughter (I believe she should have a choice), no guarantee when the UK leaves the EU you could keep both passports or be "dual citizenship". At present as both countries are EU members you can.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> No, I picked on your arguments along with others who decided to vote leave. Try again.
> 
> Why? Being against Brexit is a far cry from not being a patriot. I'm proud to be British and will stay British. Do know from looking into it for my daughter (I believe she should have a choice), no guarantee when the UK leaves the EU you could keep both passports or be "dual citizenship". At present as both countries are EU members you can.


Just being helpful after someone else asked me about it.
You have to renounce your UK citizenship to become a member of another country that doesn't have dual nationality. This currently costs £233 I think it is or maybe a bit more and takes up to 28 days to process. Regarding being an dual national in the EU is not entirely true as Spain don't accept dual nationality nor do Sweden I think it is and they require you to renounce your UK nationality to become a national of there country.


----------



## Goblin

Does depends on which EU country. I know Germany allows dual nationality for other EU countries only. For Spain it's dual nationality is allowed if from an ibroamerican country. Long term residency rules for the EU apply to people from outside the EU regardless. Personal rights are protected at not just country level but EU level being able to hold the government accountable.


----------



## KittenKong

She must be joking! Not a chance in Hell.
























http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ity-end-division-global-britain-a7527896.html

Even the Torygraph report this as a gamble:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...e-eurosceptics-major-brexit-speech-revealing/


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 297433
> 
> 
> She must be joking! Not a chance in Hell.
> View attachment 297434
> 
> View attachment 297435
> View attachment 297436
> 
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ity-end-division-global-britain-a7527896.html


Yep this is defined as leaving not keeping one foot in the EU and one foot out of the EU. So why not a chance in hell? It's called leaving if the EU. By the Way Austria are wanting control of there borders now as well.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38624569


----------



## noushka05

Every time May opens her mouth sterling gets battered. Tuesdays going to be fun.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexiters must rejoice...Farage is now the adviser on EU for DT
After all he is MEP!
For Putin's new best friend wishes the break of EU....

Maybe time is coming for US/EU to step down as leaders of the world?
It is very much jenga game...

Split Britain, split US, shaken EU..

Who the new leaders be?
I am afraid Russia abs China are making progress in forming that strategic alliance as the both benefit from weak US and Europe.

Imagine the world lead by Russia and China..
Human rights, animals rights, preservation of our planet....

Workers rights....
Sorry if my vision of the new order looks like Hunger Games. .

But when Brexit fans were fighting against imaginary loss of British freedom this what they will get....

Now Tory MPs want to limit rights to strike ...now they want judges to rule strikes justified!!!

Congratulations Joe Blogg.
There are no strikes in China..


----------



## Goblin

On a forum for a German Goth Festival. Interesting that so many people on the forum are now thinking of buying their euro's now expecting sterling to tank when May states her proposal shortly. They obviously don't think it will recover in 137 days. Not media, simply people recognising that when May speaks, sterling tanks. Hope the market will not suffer too much having expecting the worst.


----------



## Arnie83

@stockwellcat

You seem very confident that free trade agreements will improve everything post-Brexit.

Can you explain what you understand by 'free trade', how it will come about, and how it will benefit the UK?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> @stockwellcat
> 
> You seem very confident that free trade agreements will improve everything post-Brexit.
> 
> Can you explain what you understand by 'free trade', how it will come about, and how it will benefit the UK?


The EU have 50 free trade agreements around the world. Didn't you know that? They seem to benefit the EU so why won't the UK benefit from having free trade deals of its own?

Why do you think the UK is in failure mode because it wants to have its own free trade deals that can probably and most likely will benefit the UK and make the UK a successful trading country outside the EU?

Then there's the Commonwealth which the UK never left, which is growing at a faster rate than the EU.

The EU isn't the be all and end all you know.

Also the UK is the financial hub of the World so it is in the EUs interest to strike a deal with the UK some how (or at least have access to London City), as the UK is set to remain the financial hub of the World post Brexit.

Again why do you think the UK will fail? The UK can make a success of itself outside of the EU striking it's own trade deals being an independent country.

There you go answered your question with more questions.

I only answered because you chose to direct the question at me specifically.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> The EU have 50 free trade agreements around the world. Didn't you know that? They seem to benefit the EU so why won't the UK benefit from having free trade deals of its own?
> 
> Why do you think the UK is in failure mode because it wants to have its own free trade deals that can probably and most likely will benefit the UK and make the UK a successful trading country outside the EU?
> 
> Then there's the Commonwealth which the UK never left, which is growing at a faster rate than the EU.
> 
> The EU isn't the be all and end all you know.
> 
> Also the UK is the financial hub of the World so it is in the EUs interest to strike a deal with the UK some how (or at least have access to London City), as the UK is set to remain the financial hub of the World post Brexit.
> 
> Again why do you think the UK will fail? The UK can make a success of itself outside of the EU striking it's own trade deals being an independent country.
> 
> There you go answered your question with more questions.
> 
> I only answered because you chose to direct the question at me specifically.


Why do you think UK will remain financial hub post Brexit?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Why do you think UK will remain financial hub post Brexit?


What makes you think the UK won't remain the financial hub of the world?

The Chancellor (Philip Hammond) is already talking about implementing taxes and tariffs on the EU to have access to London City if the EU doesn't come to a deal with the UK.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The Chancellor (Philip Hammond) is already talking about implementing taxes and tariffs on the EU to have access to London City if the EU doesn't come to a deal with the UK.


Yep, international foreign banks will really want to lose customers in the EU. Give them another reason to move out of the UK whilst many already have backup plans in case they need to do so.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Chancellor Philip Hammond said if the EU don't strike a deal with the UK that the Government would change its approach and turn the UK into a tax haven. What do tax havens attract? Business because of course the EU businesses would want to use tax havens to put there money through and would even relocate to the UK at whatever cost to avoid paying taxes to the EU which the EU plan to impose. The Government have said they will make this work for the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yep, international foreign banks will really want to lose customers in the EU. Give them another reason to move out of the UK whilst many already have backup plans in case they need to do so.


Wrong.
The Chancellor Philip Hammond said if the EU don't strike a deal with the UK that the Government would change its approach and turn the UK into a tax haven for EU businesses. What do tax havens attract? Business because of course the EU businesses would want to use tax havens to put there money through and would even relocate to the UK at whatever cost to avoid paying taxes to the EU which the EU plan to impose and even various countries within the EU already impose on business. The Government have said they will make this work for the UK.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> What do tax havens attract? Business because of course the EU businesses would want to use tax havens to put there money through and would even relocate to the UK at whatever cost to avoid paying taxes to the EU which the EU plan to impose. The Government have said they will make this work for the UK.


No they attract things like headquarter offices employing very few people not business. Tell me again what did amazon and the like pay compared to what they "owed" in taxes? Wonder how long it would be for the EU to change tax laws allowing "headquarter offices" to be used for tax purposes.


----------



## stockwellcat.

LOOK it's Sunday, supposedly a day of rest so give it a rest and tomorrow is Monday a day everyone is trying to adjust at being back at work. On Tuesday Theresa May, David David and Boris Johnson give the speach on what Brexit means. So until then I will give this thread a break and then on Tuesday after there speach I'll just pop on here to see what critism the remainers have.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> No they attract things like headquarter offices employing very few people not business. *Tell me again what did amazon and the like pay *compared to what they "owed" in taxe*s?* Wonder how long it would be for the EU to change tax laws allowing "headquarter offices" to be used for tax purposes.


That I don't know but what I do know is Amazon, Apple and McDonalds have all shown an interest in moving there European headquarters to the UK and are happy to pay UK business taxes.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> That I don't know but what I do know is Amazon, Apple and McDonalds have all shown an interest in moving there European headquarters to the UK and are happy to pay UK business taxes.


Let's see, companies under investigation of tax avoidance want to move to the UK. Isn't that a shock . Let's look shall we which is hard as details are rarely publicised. Google came to an agreement with HMRC to pay £130m to cover a decade of back taxes which is an effective tax rate of just 3 per cent. Considering UK companies pay 20% or more you're pushing this as a great sign of progress. So how much investment into the UK do these multinationals have.. an office plus a few staff. In return they avoid a load of tax and tell the government what to do. Great plan.

Be different if they were moving manufacturing etc here. Then you could applaud. Instead we get an office or two and tax which may be potentially lost simply by the EU changing tax laws.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Let's see, companies under investigation of tax avoidance want to move to the UK. Isn't that a shock and you push this as great. Let's look shall we which is hard as secrecy covers a lot of it. Google came to an agreement with HMRC to pay £130m to cover a decade of back taxes which is an effective tax rate of just 3 per cent. Considering UK companies pay 20% or more you're pushing this as a great sign. So how much investment into the UK do these multinationals have.. an office plus a few staff. In return they avoid a load of tax and tell the government what to do. Great plan.


That's why Luxembourg are doing so well, PayPal, eBay, Amazon and various other US companies use Luxembourg to have there European headquarters in. Luxembourg seem to be doing well as a well known tax haven and don't get told what to do by these companies as you suggest. Let's see what happens because any answers given at the moment are opinion but we will know on Tuesday as fact what is going to happen when the Brexit plans are laid out in this speach.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Goblin This has been all over the knees in the UK
*Hammond fires warning shot across Brussels' bows over single market*

Philip Hammond has warned the UK is "not going to lie down" if Brussels seeks to impose trade tariffs after Brexit.

The Chancellor indicated the Government could retaliate by slashing business taxes if the EU moved to shut Britain out of the single market.

His comments, made to a German newspaper, came ahead of a major speech by the Prime Minister Theresa May on Tuesday.

In an interview with the German Welt am Sonntag, Mr Hammond said: "If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term.

"In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness. And you can be sure we will do whatever we have to do.

"The British people are not going to lie down and say, too bad, we've been wounded. We will change our model, and we will come back, and we will be competitively engaged."

It has been reported, Mrs May will announce *the UK is prepared to leave the single market* in a speech on Tuesday.

Her so-called red lines in the upcoming Brexit negotiations are an end to free movement and lifting the bar to starting trade talks with other countries before breaking with Brussels.

http://news.sky.com/story/hammond-f...oss-brussels-bows-over-single-market-10729979

Again I know you will dismiss this and do everything to put this down but that's what remainers do.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Goblin and this
*UK could become 'tax haven' of Europe if it is shut out of single market after Brexit, Chancellor suggests*

The country will do 'whatever we have to do' to keep economy afloat, says Philip Hammond

Britain is willing to rip up its economic model and become the tax haven of Europe if it is shut out of the EU's single market, the Chancellor has suggested.

In a stark warning to the other 27 EU countries, Philip Hammond said the UK is willing to do "whatever we have to" to bounce back after Brexit.

The Chancellor gave a major interview on leaving the EU to the German newspaper _Welt am Sonntag_, just days before Theresa May was due to reveal her Brexit plans in a speech on Tuesday.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7527961.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola

The EU want to play tough the UK will do to.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Getting out of custom union is a such marvellous idea that all taxpayers would fund..
Especially for someone who imports more than exports....
Interesting how many generations would pay for national debt that all that will create....
Hammond said: Lol.

EU is quaking in their boots ...
After devaluation of the pound France alone has bigger economy than UK...

Wonder how low pound will go...
Yesterday in biker's bar they put 1 pound to 1 euro...who cares about few pennies?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Getting out of custom union I such marvellous idea that all taxpayers would fund..
> Especially for someone who imports more than exports....
> Interesting how many generations would pay for national debt that all that will create....


What about the debt it would create staying in or joining it. It costs billions of pounds a year (if you want an exact figure ask the EU how much they charge) to be a member of the customs union. So yes leaving it makes sense if the EU aren't prepared to strike a deal with the UK over some access to the Single Market.

The UK stops paying into the EU in 2020 so 2021 is when we will see changes in the UK to the UK's financial situation. Until then the UK is tied into paying into the EU's budget. We won't be leaving the EU until 2019 (maybe sooner if no deal is struck) so that's only 6 months or so extra to pay into the EU once the UK has left.

The UK economy is still growing so what you talking about? The economy is on track to reach its forecasted amount by the end of the current quarter. Just because the pound is bouncing around doesn't affect the economy and vise versa. The pound will bounce back.


----------



## stockwellcat.

We are still leaving the EU and I still remain a leave voter.

Have fun catch you all later some time.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> That's why Luxembourg are doing so well, PayPal, eBay, Amazon and various other US companies use Luxembourg to have there European headquarters in. Luxembourg seem to be doing well as a well known tax haven and don't get told what to do by these companies as you suggest. Let's see what happens because any answers given at the moment are opinion but we will know on Tuesday as fact what is going to happen when the Brexit plans are laid out in this speach.


So you compare a country of 524,853 to a country of roughly 6.5million okay. You know how companies influence the Luxembourg government although I must say, I do not know anything about that. I do know the UK government is quite happy to make backroom deals with multinationals and keep it from the general public. I also know it happens.



stockwellcat said:


> @Goblin This has been all over the knees in the UK
> ...
> Again I know you will dismiss this and do everything to put this down but that's what remainers do.


Presume you mean news in the UK  in which case I know.

I'm hardly going to dismiss it as it actually says quite a bit. It says the UK is in trouble if it doesn't get what it wants during negotiations, indicating that the government doesn't expect to. It's attempting threats before the start of negotiations which only reinforces it's poor position. It says it's not possible to continue the economic model we have even with the so called 50 trade deals just waiting to happen as soon as we leave...

In short:








​Wonder what May can say which changes that outcome. I can't see anything which she could. It will be her typical I want, not I can or I will.


----------



## Happy Paws2

She's going to the EU and asking for everything and give nothing in retrun they are just going to laugh at her.


----------



## Goblin

Happy Paws said:


> She's going to the EU and asking for everything and give nothing in retrun they are just going to laugh at her.


At least then she can scapegoat the EU rather than highlight the blame for any subsequent problems are actually with those who pushed to leave the EU along with the government itself.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Goblin said:


> At least then she can scapegoat the EU rather than highlight the blame for* any subsequent problems are actually with those who pushed to leave the EU along with the government itself.*


Definitely. we don't have a hope in hell of getting what we want.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Oh...but we can make fortune on money laundering and get all gangsters to open new legal businesses in UK. Money form slaves trafficking, sex slaves, child porn, drugs, arms, frauds, simply stolen goods..you name it...we will keep it safe and pure...
EU kept all that scum away..and their power...

How lovely..


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> The EU have 50 free trade agreements around the world. Didn't you know that? They seem to benefit the EU so why won't the UK benefit from having free trade deals of its own?
> 
> Why do you think the UK is in failure mode because it wants to have its own free trade deals that can probably and most likely will benefit the UK and make the UK a successful trading country outside the EU?
> 
> Then there's the Commonwealth which the UK never left, which is growing at a faster rate than the EU.
> 
> The EU isn't the be all and end all you know.
> 
> Also the UK is the financial hub of the World so it is in the EUs interest to strike a deal with the UK some how (or at least have access to London City), as the UK is set to remain the financial hub of the World post Brexit.
> 
> Again why do you think the UK will fail? The UK can make a success of itself outside of the EU striking it's own trade deals being an independent country.
> 
> There you go answered your question with more questions.
> 
> I only answered because you chose to direct the question at me specifically.


Well thank you, except you didn't actually answer any of the three questions I asked, which were ...


Arnie83 said:


> Can you explain what you understand by 'free trade', how it will come about, and how it will benefit the UK?


I didn't actually mention the EU at all, nor how I think the UK will fare post-Brexit, and I don't even know what 'failure-mode' is.

So, those three questions, the subject of which forms the basis of your optimistic outlook ...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Well thank you, except you didn't actually answer any of the three questions I asked, which were ...
> 
> I didn't actually mention the EU at all, nor how I think the UK will fare post-Brexit, and I don't even know what 'failure-mode' is.
> 
> So, those three questions, the subject of which forms the basis of your optimistic outlook ...


They do not know any better than BJ , TM or Fox.


----------



## Goblin

Happy Paws said:


> Definitely. we don't have a hope in hell of getting what we want.


But but but.. wasn't hard brexit the only option of the referendum question. Thought everyone agreed that is what it meant


----------



## KittenKong

Yes, a "hard Brexit" that would stop free movement of EU citizens in to the UK but not vice versa, free trade deals to continue as now and of course £350m to fund the NHS.

When reality hits those who voted for these promises I can see the Remain camp growing considerably.

For May to "order" the UK to unite, this is as likely as Trump persuading all US citizens to embrace his Presidency.

Still, it's such divisions they create which gets/keeps their like in power through the help of the gutter press of course.


----------



## cheekyscrip

F


KittenKong said:


> Yes, a "hard Brexit" that would stop free movement of EU citizens in to the UK but not vice versa, free trade deals to continue as now and of course £350m to fund the NHS.
> 
> When reality hits those who voted for these promises hits them I can see the Remain camp growing considerably.
> 
> For May to "order" the UK to unite Trump will find this as easy to convince all US citizens to embrace his Presidency.
> 
> Still, it's such divisions they create which gets/keeps their like in power.


Forgot to mention the special relationship between TM and DT....
Forged by Farage.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> So you compare a country of 524,853 to a country of roughly 6.5billion okay.


On which planet is this country with a population of 6.5 billion?


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Yes, a "hard Brexit" that would stop free movement of EU citizens in to the UK but not vice versa, free trade deals to continue as now and of course £350m to fund the NHS.


Catch up! "hard brexit" is soooo 2016.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Catch up! "hard brexit" is soooo 2016.


Now it is called new tax haven.
Laugh or cry?


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> On which planet is this country with a population of 6.5 billion?


Corrected million instead of billion. Principle remains that the UK and Luxumbourg cannot be compared. So with your millions in the bank, is the UK becoming a tax haven something you would encourage? If so why?


----------



## Jesthar

Goblin said:


> Corrected million instead of billion. Principle remains that the UK and Luxumbourg cannot be compared. So with your millions in the bank, is the UK becoming a tax haven something you would encourage? If so why?


65 million, not 6.5 million, surely?


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38632140










Damn, we're getting our Euros tomorrow, could have waited 'til Tuesday....


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.open-britain.co.uk/morga...ent_prioritising_immigration_over_the_economy


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> http://www.open-britain.co.uk/morga...ent_prioritising_immigration_over_the_economy
> 
> View attachment 297520
> View attachment 297521
> View attachment 297522
> View attachment 297523


Surprise!!!
But!!! Brexit campaign promised how better off everyone will.be with no contributions and no immigration!!!!

Did the they tell them people might be about 700-1000 worse a year?

Remain warned but who needs experts and gloomy predictions?

Lets put red/ while and blue tinted glasses and wave the flag very hard.

Lets wage war on EU and Russia will be so grateful...


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> http://www.open-britain.co.uk/morga...ent_prioritising_immigration_over_the_economy
> 
> View attachment 297520
> View attachment 297521
> View attachment 297522
> View attachment 297523


Oooo are we meant to be scared of Open Britain. They are a failed campaign group that relaunched itself in August 2016. They where campaigning in Stockwell and I stood with in ear shot for 10 minutes and watched them (Stcokwell is a remain area) and a couple of people told them to go away and stop moaning and a few others said they where annoying them and apart from this they got ignored.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If people are thinking article 50 will be stopped by the Northern Ireland problem as it has no devolution Government. UK Parliament can suspend devolution powers to Northern Ireland if they can't sort out a power sharing devolved Government and put powers back to Westminster so Northern Ireland is run by the UK Government. So as you can see this won't stop Article 50 from being triggered by the 31st March 2017. The deadline for the Northern Irelands devolved Government to sort out there problems is by 5pm tonight. People in Northern Ireland are annoyed with there devolved Government as they are doing nothing for the people of Northern Ireland and can't stop there in arguing and disagreements.

*Time running out for Northern Ireland's devolved government*

Northern Ireland's devolved government is on the brink of collapse after a split in the power-sharing coalition.

Sinn Fein has until 5pm today to nominate someone to succeed Martin McGuinness as Deputy First Minister.

If the party refuses to do so, the Stormont Executive will cease to exist, forcing the British government to call an election.

Theresa May's Northern Ireland Secretary, James Brokenshire MP, told Sky News the Prime Minister was being kept informed.

He said: "I will certainly be continuing to keep her updated as matters progress.

"Obviously, she is considering these issues very, very closely and very, very carefully.

"But ultimately, the issues that we're dealing with at the moment are the relationships between the parties, how parties work together or don't work together, as we're currently experiencing."

Mrs May could face a legal challenge if she attempts to trigger Article 50 without a devolved government in place in Northern Ireland.

*If parties refuse to resume power-sharing after any election, the British government may have to reinstate direct rule from Westminster.*

http://news.sky.com/story/time-running-out-for-nothern-irelands-devolved-government-10730591


----------



## cheekyscrip

But Donald loves Brexit.
Britain at discount wholesale.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Goblin said


> So you compare a country of 524,853 to a country of roughly 6.5billion okay.


 It's no wonder the UK voted to leave if there are 65 billion in the UK.

Which expert did you get this figure off? They are so wrong with this figure.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 297526
> View attachment 297528
> 
> But Donald loves Brexit.
> Britain at discount wholesale.


This article is currently wrong. On https://www.poundsterlinglive.com the figure is at 1.20 and this is live data being fed to pound sterling live.









*1.2005▼*
-1.37%

Today's Low

1.1987

Today's High

1.2054

Yesterday's Closing Rate

1.2171

It will change tomorrow when TM has done her speech.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> This article is currently wrong. On https://www.poundsterlinglive.com the figure is above 1.20 and this is live data being fed to pound sterling live.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1.2005▼*
> -1.37%
> 
> Today's Low
> 
> 1.1987
> 
> Today's High
> 
> 1.2054
> 
> Yesterday's Closing Rate
> 
> 1.2171


Before referendum about 1.50 dollar to pound?
And it will go to around 1 to 1....


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Before referendum about 1.50 dollar to pound?
> And it will go to around 1 to 1....


1.48 not 1.50. @Satori cashed in his pounds for dollars at the right time 

The currencies will stabilise after the speech tomorrow. It doesn't help the news is spouting out unfounded information (it's unfounded because Downing Street is denying it) at the moment which the currencies are reacting to.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I say roughly...
Every time TM opens her mouth to assure us how well UK is pound sinks...


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="cheekyscrip, post: 1064751749, member: 
Lets put red/ while and blue tinted glasses and wave the flag very hard.
...[/QUOTE]

Perhaps the stars and stripes after Trump's embracing of Brexit?

So much for getting their country back......


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> [QUOTE="cheekyscrip, post: 1064751749, member:
> Lets put red/ while and blue tinted glasses and wave the flag very hard.
> ...





> Perhaps the stars and stripes after Trump's embracing of Brexit?
> 
> So much for getting their country back......


Yep it's called getting our own country back and trading, yes trading with whom the UK wants to like America (the EU have been after a USA and EU trade deal since the mid 1990's), New Zealand and Australia. Oh didn't you know the EU want trade deals with these countries as well but dither on them. The UK is being pushed to the front of the queue whilst the EU goes to the back of the queue.

They are trade deals not invasion deals.


----------



## noushka05

This is what Brexit means... the tax dodges, environmental standards and worker exploitation no other country will offer.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...d-become-tax-haven?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Yep it's called getting our own country back


What does that even mean? It's spin not fact. We always had our country.
Ironic really, WTO = unelected bureaucracy we have no input with growing set of rules. EU = democratic. Let's throw out the EU to ally with the WTO. That'll teach those unelected bureaucrats.

Trade deals you cannot even explain what they really are and why they are a benefit. You come up with no solution as to the UK's weak negotiation stance in trade deals. The EU negotiates from strength. Great plan. No trade deal is far better than a poor trade deal. So yet more meaningless repetition of the media spin.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> What does that even mean? It's spin not fact. We always had our country.
> Ironic really, WTO = unelected bureaucracy we have no input with growing set of rules. EU = democratic. Let's throw out the EU to ally with the WTO. That'll teach those unelected bureaucrats.
> 
> Trade deals you cannot even explain what they really are and why they are a benefit. You come up with no solution as to the UK's weak negotiation stance in trade deals. The EU negotiates from strength. Great plan. No trade deal is far better than a poor trade deal. So yet more meaningless repetition of the media spin.


Just stuff you don't want to hear not spin 
The so called experts created enough spin and got it wrong. Cameron and Osbourne created enough negative spin and got it wrong. Like your own spin that the UK has 65billion people in it


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Which expert did you get this figure off? They are so wrong with this figure.


The leave campaign when he started complaining about immigrants of course and how the UK couldn't cope with the numbers


----------



## Goblin

We had control. you stating otherwise is spin.
Trade deals, you cannot state what they even are simply repeating media spin.

Osbourne's Project fear, closer than the leave campaign. People are being financially affected and we haven't even felt the full effect as we haven't started to leave. Remind me, where's the 350million per week going to come from, yet alone have it all go to the NHS?

Repeating something again and again does not equate to truth. Especially when you simply repeat the spin of the media.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> All you do is repeat the media spin.


So does @noushka05 (pages of it at times), @KittenKong (pages of it at times), @cheekyscrip (pages of it at times), and so do you at times @Goblin.


----------



## noushka05

Goves Trump interview. Is this for real?? FFS! Our NHS & our natural world are DOOMED.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> So does @noushka05 (pages of it at times), @KittenKong (pages of it at times), @cheekyscrip (pages of it at times), and so do you at times @Goblin.


Experts in trade deals and how they work and are negotiated vs "ooh we have 50 trade deals in the pipeline but we'll ignore pointing out india said they'll give us a trade deal providing we open up immigration"








​


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Experts in trade deals and how they work and are negotiated vs "ooh we have 50 trade deals in the pipeline but we'll ignore pointing out india said they'll give us a trade deal providing we open up immigration"
> 
> View attachment 297536
> 
> 
> ​


Yes India also want a trade deal with the EU. The difference with the UK is the UK is looking at allowing access to the UK for skilled workers under a work visa scheme I do believe.

All these countries you keep mentioning are countries the EU are dithering trade deals with (Dangling the carrot so to speak).

Boris just said in Brussels that any trade deal with the USA would have to be beneficial to the UK as well as the USA. But it's good news that Donald Trump wants a trade deal with the UK and it could be dealt with quickly.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Yes India also want a trade deal with the EU. The difference with the UK is the UK is looking at allowing access to the UK for skilled workers under a work visa scheme I do believe.


Hint.. India is not part of the EU with free movement. Whole point is India wants more open access than work visas as part of trade deals. Wait wasn't free movement critical to voting leave?



stockwellcat said:


> All these countries you keep mentioning are countries the EU are dithering trade deals with (Dangling the carrot so to speak).


Again showing lack of understanding of trade deals. No trade deal is better than a poor trade deal. They are not a magic bullet for trade nor are they necessary to trade. Often trade deals take a decade or more to create and to be agreed. You want to rush them through when the UK has little in the way of expertise in creating them. Great plan.



stockwellcat said:


> Boris just said in Brussels that any trade deal with the USA would have to be beneficial to the UK as well as the USA. But it's good news that Donald Trump wants a trade deal with the UK and it could be dealt with quickly.


This from the man who blatantly said leave would gain 350 million for the NHS. Someone who has lied about the effects of EU rules on the UK for years. Who pushed for Turkey joining the EU until it suddenly became more politically useful to stoke fear of immigrants from Turkey joining... Yep definately someone to be believed and trusted.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Hint.. India is not part of the EU with free movement. Whole point is India wants more open access than work visas as part of trade deals. Wait wasn't free movement critical to voting leave?


But wait a minute, who said the UK want a trade deal with India?
What makes you think the UK does?

The EU are dithering with a free trade deal with India and have been since 2007:

India is currently the fastest growing economy in the world and a strategic partner for the EU, representing a sizable and dynamic market of 1.25 billion people. For these reasons, the EU and India are committed to further increase their bilateral trade and investment through the Free Trade Agreement negotiations that were launched in 2007.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/india/index_en.htm

And according to the Europa website above India is already trading with the EU:


India is the EU's 9th trading partner in 2015 (2.2% of EU's overall trade with the world), after South Korea (2.6%) and ahead of Brazil (1.9%).
The value of EU exports to India grew from €21.3 billion in 2005 to €38.1 billion in 2015, with engineering goods, gems and jewelry, other manufactured goods and chemicals ranking at the top.
The value of EU imports from India also increased from €19.1 billion in 2005 to €39.4 billion in 2015, with at the top textiles and clothing, chemicals and engineering goods.
Trade in services almost tripled in the past decade, increasing from €5.2billion in 2002 to €14 billion in 2015.
EU investment stocks in India amounted to €38.5 billion in 2014, increasing from €34.7 billion in the previous year.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Yes India also want a trade deal with the EU. The difference with the UK is the UK is looking at allowing access to the UK for skilled workers under a work visa scheme I do believe.
> 
> All these countries you keep mentioning are countries the EU are dithering trade deals with (Dangling the carrot so to speak).
> 
> Boris just said in Brussels that any trade deal with the USA would have to be beneficial to the UK as well as the USA. But it's good news that Donald Trump wants a trade deal with the UK and it could be dealt with quickly.


Any old deal will do (doesn't matter how dangerous it is, or how impoverished we will be), so long as we get out of the EU. https://www.ft.com/content/378c2678-db9d-11e6-9d7c-be108f1c1dce

*
Donald Trump is promising the rapid launch and conclusion of a trade agreement with the UK to help the government of Theresa May make Brexit a "great success".

"We're going to work very hard to get it done quickly and done properly. Good for both sides," Mr Trump told The Times and Germany's Bild in an interview published on Sunday. But that promise faces at least four potential hurdles. The EU and the terms of Brexit Still a member of the EU, the UK is technically not allowed to negotiate a trade agreement with another country. But the bigger question is just what the nitty-gritty details of the UK's future economic links with Europe will be. While the UK is a sizeable economy in its own right, US and other companies have for decades chosen to invest in Britain because it served as a gateway into the EU.

Even a so-called "hard Brexit" - a clean break from the EU's single market for goods, people and services as well as from the customs union for goods - would have to be followed by a trade deal with the EU that could take years to negotiate. Mr Trump is making clear that he wants to do things differently and may decide to prioritise politics and a transatlantic alliance with Brexiters over US commercial policy. But that may not be in the best interests of the US.

Officials and business representatives in Washington argue that the US would have to know the terms of a UK deal with the EU before it sat down to negotiate its own pact with Britain. The US is also almost four years into its own negotiation with the EU over a "Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership" on which Mr Trump has yet to take a position. Time Trade negotiations are complex and take years to hash out. So while Mr Trump says he wants to do one quickly he - and Mrs May's government - could be in for a rude awakening. When the US and EU launched their talks in 2013, the pledge from politicians was to try to secure a deal quickly. Officials in Washington even promised to get them done on "a single tank of gas [petrol]". But after 15 rounds of negotiations a deal is far from complete and the joke in trade circles is that they ran out of gas long ago - unless, of course, negotiators switched to an electric car.

Duelling interests

The curse of all trade agreements is competing interests and how governments balance them - and a US-UK deal would face immense questions.

The American and British financial services sectors are already largely transatlantic and would probably support a trade agreement.

But what would a trade deal mean for financial regulation? Would the UK's farmers be as keen on a trade deal that would open them up to competition from huge US agricultural groups at the very time they are losing generous EU subsidies?

And what of the politically sensitive British health sector?

Would a trade deal with the US mean more American companies pressing for privatisation of parts of the UK's National Health Service, one of the main fears expressed by opponents of the stalled EU trade talks with the US?

On the flip side, would Donald Trump allow the tariff-free export of British-built cars to the US at a time when he is threatening to impose a 35 per cent "border tax" on cars made in Mexico? Missing rules and regulations One of the biggest arguments for Brexit is that it would liberate the UK from the EU's onerous regulations. But what would the UK replace them with? And how would the issue be treated in any trade negotiations with the US? The US-EU negotiations that have been under way since 2013 have focused mainly on the difficult issue of removing regulatory barriers to trade, which represent the main obstacle to smooth commerce across the seas.

The problem is that regulations are politically sensitive things, particularly in areas such as agriculture and food safety.

A Trump administration could require the UK to take a different stance on genetically modified grains, for example, or to allow the import of hormone-fed US beef, something the EU has long resisted*


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> But wait a minute, who said the UK want a trade deal with India?
> What makes you think the UK does?


How about Hammand's need to push that their is a queue of 50 trade deals waiting.
How about http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-britain-may-idUKKBN1320B1



> The EU are dithering with a free trade deal with India and have been since 2007:


Dithering according to who? You or the experts who expect trade deals to take over 10 years to create. You post a link, why not look at possible reasons using it.. Here's a simple line from it : India's trade regime and regulatory environment remains comparatively restrictive. Maybe you should consider how things like outsourcing of call centers to India affected the UK? How would the UK protect it's service industry in any trade deal? No trade deal is better than a bad trade deal so maybe it is taking time to get something beneficial to the EU member countries.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> How about Hammand's need to push that their is a queue of 50 trade deals waiting.
> How about http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-britain-may-idUKKBN1320B1
> 
> Dithering according to who? You or the experts who expect trade deals to take over 10 years to create. You post a link, why not look at possible reasons using it.. Here's a simple line from it : India's trade regime and regulatory environment remains comparatively restrictive. Maybe you should consider how things like outsourcing of call centers to India affected the UK? How would the UK protect it's service industry in any trade deal? No trade deal is better than a bad trade deal so maybe it is taking time to get something beneficial to the EU member countries.


Firstly wrong person. Hammond is the Chancellor. Liam Fox is the one in charge of finding potential trade deals with the UK when the UK exits the EU and it was Fox who announced he had a list of 50 countries that the UK could potentially trade with not Hammond.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> How about Hammand's need to push that their is a queue of 50 trade deals waiting.
> How about http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-britain-may-idUKKBN1320B1
> 
> Dithering according to who? You or the experts who expect trade deals to take over 10 years to create. You post a link, why not look at possible reasons using it.. Here's a simple line from it : India's trade regime and regulatory environment remains comparatively restrictive. Maybe you should consider how things like outsourcing of call centers to India affected the UK? How would the UK protect it's service industry in any trade deal? No trade deal is better than a bad trade deal so maybe it is taking time to get something beneficial to the EU member countries.


Secondly nothing is set in stone with the UK and India. Last time I looked the New Zealand PM came to the UK last week saying they would be willing to have a trade deal with the UK. These trade deals would have to benefit the UK and New Zealand and USA as well as both these countries. Talks are already taking place with Australia, New Zealand and USA to strike a trade deal with the UK when the UK leaves the EU. The UK seems to prioritising the USA, New Zealand and Australia over any other potential trade deals.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Any old deal will do (doesn't matter how dangerous it is, or how impoverished we will be), so long as we get out of the EU. https://www.ft.com/content/378c2678-db9d-11e6-9d7c-be108f1c1dce
> 
> *
> Donald Trump is promising the rapid launch and conclusion of a trade agreement with the UK to help the government of Theresa May make Brexit a "great success".
> 
> "We're going to work very hard to get it done quickly and done properly. Good for both sides," Mr Trump told The Times and Germany's Bild in an interview published on Sunday. But that promise faces at least four potential hurdles. The EU and the terms of Brexit Still a member of the EU, the UK is technically not allowed to negotiate a trade agreement with another country. But the bigger question is just what the nitty-gritty details of the UK's future economic links with Europe will be. While the UK is a sizeable economy in its own right, US and other companies have for decades chosen to invest in Britain because it served as a gateway into the EU.
> 
> Even a so-called "hard Brexit" - a clean break from the EU's single market for goods, people and services as well as from the customs union for goods - would have to be followed by a trade deal with the EU that could take years to negotiate. Mr Trump is making clear that he wants to do things differently and may decide to prioritise politics and a transatlantic alliance with Brexiters over US commercial policy. But that may not be in the best interests of the US.
> 
> Officials and business representatives in Washington argue that the US would have to know the terms of a UK deal with the EU before it sat down to negotiate its own pact with Britain. The US is also almost four years into its own negotiation with the EU over a "Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership" on which Mr Trump has yet to take a position. Time Trade negotiations are complex and take years to hash out. So while Mr Trump says he wants to do one quickly he - and Mrs May's government - could be in for a rude awakening. When the US and EU launched their talks in 2013, the pledge from politicians was to try to secure a deal quickly. Officials in Washington even promised to get them done on "a single tank of gas [petrol]". But after 15 rounds of negotiations a deal is far from complete and the joke in trade circles is that they ran out of gas long ago - unless, of course, negotiators switched to an electric car.
> 
> Duelling interests
> 
> The curse of all trade agreements is competing interests and how governments balance them - and a US-UK deal would face immense questions.
> 
> The American and British financial services sectors are already largely transatlantic and would probably support a trade agreement.
> 
> But what would a trade deal mean for financial regulation? Would the UK's farmers be as keen on a trade deal that would open them up to competition from huge US agricultural groups at the very time they are losing generous EU subsidies?
> 
> And what of the politically sensitive British health sector?
> 
> Would a trade deal with the US mean more American companies pressing for privatisation of parts of the UK's National Health Service, one of the main fears expressed by opponents of the stalled EU trade talks with the US?
> 
> On the flip side, would Donald Trump allow the tariff-free export of British-built cars to the US at a time when he is threatening to impose a 35 per cent "border tax" on cars made in Mexico? Missing rules and regulations One of the biggest arguments for Brexit is that it would liberate the UK from the EU's onerous regulations. But what would the UK replace them with? And how would the issue be treated in any trade negotiations with the US? The US-EU negotiations that have been under way since 2013 have focused mainly on the difficult issue of removing regulatory barriers to trade, which represent the main obstacle to smooth commerce across the seas.
> 
> The problem is that regulations are politically sensitive things, particularly in areas such as agriculture and food safety.
> 
> A Trump administration could require the UK to take a different stance on genetically modified grains, for example, or to allow the import of hormone-fed US beef, something the EU has long resisted*


Yes the EU dangling a carrot again. 4 years into negotiations with the US this time around. In 2016 the EU USA entered it's 15th round of negotiations. The TTIP deal was set to be finalised by the end of 2014.

The trade deal would have to benefit the UK as well as the USA outside of the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

Perhaps May should also reintroduce the Poll Tax and " make a success of it" too.

Who knows what Trump will want in return for his "assistance". British PM's do not say no to the US as we well know.......


----------



## Creativecat

I personally think we shud desolve ties with Europe . But tbh I think there is going to be a lot of missed oppurtunitys for us to try and negotiate in short alot of Agro for very little benefit . I dont think this government or the bean counters have got our best interests at heart and will stall and drag there feet kicking and screaming to make our country proud again .


----------



## KittenKong

Proud again? Really?
I was once very proud of this country, now I'm too ashamed to call myself British.


----------



## Creativecat

Proud again lol wrong choice of words . Maybe stop
Being mugged off continuesly


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The trade deal would have to benefit the UK as well as the USA outside of the EU.


Again showing little knowledge of trade deal reality. Yes, potentially minor benefit but at what cost? US companies dictating to the UK government via TTIP? That was fine according to the government while it was being negotiated with the EU whilst other parts of the EU were saying no. The very fact Trump is boasting about it and people are jumping up and down saying how great it is means the UK government will lose a lot of face if they reject it due to terms in the current political environment.



Creativecat said:


> Maybe stop Being mugged off continuesly


How were we being mugged off continously? Nobody else can explain it based on facts. We gained far more than any potential downside. That's why the government is scrambling so much. We lose more than we gain.


----------



## Arnie83

Sorry, I asked ...



Arnie83 said:


> Can you explain what you understand by 'free trade', how it will come about, and how it will benefit the UK?


And you answered ...



cheekyscrip said:


> They do not know any better than BJ , TM or Fox.


Who are 'they'? And what have 'they' got to do with the questions, which remain unanswered?

Or are you saying - I'm guessing here - that because BJ, TM and LF seem to like free trade, you will adopt it as the basis for your very optimistic view of the UK's post-Brexit outlook even though you don't know what it is or how it works?


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Proud again? Really?
> I was once very proud of this country, now I'm too* ashamed to call myself British.*


I haven't been proud of been British long before Breixt, most, not all are a self centred people who think everyone should speak english and get what the want where ever we go, nothing there to be proud of there.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
Trumpster is enthused about Brexit b/c it's a potential for windfall profits:
take advantage of the pound's drop in value & score some real estate, buy acreage or buildings on the cheap, build / lease / sell when the value comes up, & pocket an inflated profit.
He's not claiming Brexit is great for all UK citizens; he's thrilled by the prospect of making more money.
.
& yes -
he doesn't care a tinker's dam whether any project is environmentally sustainable, causes serious negative impacts on local ppl / wildlife / watercourses, etc, or wipes out the entire popn of an endangered species.
If it makes money, to H*** with the other consequences, & full steam ahead! ... Profit is all that matters, even if it's short-term profit & long-term irreplaceable loss, or devasting environmental damage.
.
.
He's blind to anything but the bottom line, & will do anything - so far as I can tell - to make a project he's fixated on, become reality.
He employs illegal aliens, underpays / shortchanges / fails to pay subcontractors & contractors, suppliers & designers, ignores laws about equal rights for tenants / applicants for leases, rips off his workers by re-directing the monies they contributed to a "pension fund" to pay his creditors [Atlantic City, NJ casino employees], & more.
.
He's more-likely IMO to *sell U a piece of the swamp* in Washington-DC & assure U it's prime real-estate, well-drained & ready for building, than to "drain" it.
He can make more $$ manipulating the swamp denizens than evicting them.
.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, I asked ...
> 
> And you answered ...
> 
> Who are 'they'? And what have 'they' got to do with the questions, which remain unanswered?
> 
> Or are you saying - I'm guessing here - that because BJ, TM and LF seem to like free trade, you will adopt it as the basis for your very optimistic view of the UK's post-Brexit outlook even though you don't know what it is or how it works?


"They" meant @stockwellcat lol...as I have NPI they are male or female ( it was debated...but alas no one is sure...).

Sorry...been a bit sarcastic about the unicorns and rainbows of Brexit....
Meant @stockwellcat most likely knows just as much about the Brexit malarky as BJ or TM or Fox ... they have NPI but still happy to pull the trigger... At least it looks this way?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> "They" meant @stockwellcat lol...as I have NPI they are male or female ( *it was debated...but alas no one is sure...*).
> 
> Sorry...been a bit sarcastic about the unicorns and rainbows of Brexit....
> Meant @stockwellcat most likely knows just as much about the Brexit malarky as BJ or TM or Fox ... they have NPI but still happy to pull the trigger... At least it looks this way?


I was debated about. I wondered why my ears have been burning. Is there a poll if I am a man or woman? Does it matter if I am either


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I was debated about. I wondered why my ears have been burning. Was there a poll if I was a man or woman? Does it matter if I am either


Actually....I always thought you were a lady...my apologies if got it wrong...just as 99% of Cat Chat are females.... 
@cheeky blushes...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Actually....I always thought you were a lady...my apologies if got it wrong...just as 99% of Cat Chat are females....
> @cheeky blushes...


I'll leave you worrying if I am a man or woman. I thought forums where meant to be annoynamous?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I'll leave you worrying if I am a man or woman. I thought forums where meant to be annoynamous?


Annoying or anonymous? Which one?
I do not know.
We have a members photo thread and questions about gender were asked many times.
You can put in your profile as much or as little as you want and you may even blatantly lie....

Some banned now pf members did..

Some people have too much time on their hands apparently...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Annoying or anonymous? Which one?
> I do not know.
> We have a members photo thread and questions about gender were asked many times.
> You can put in your profile as much or as little as you want and you may even blatantly lie....
> 
> Some banned now pf members did..
> 
> Some people have too much time on their hands apparently...


Oh I'll have to find the members photo thread, when I have a bit of time to spare.

So I have been defined as annoynamous and annoying. That's nice to know 

I didn't know it was compulsory to reveal if you are male of female.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Oh I'll have to find the members photo thread, when I have a bit of time to spare.
> 
> So I have been defined as annoynamous and annoying. That's nice to know
> 
> I didn't know it was compulsory to reveal if you are male of female.


You put "annoynamous" so I pulled your leg a tiny bit...

Yes...nice to put faces to pf nicks...
Some surprises too...

Cat Chat had members photo thread not long ago...
Obviously who wanted...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> *You put "annoynamous" so I pulled your leg a tiny bit...*
> 
> Yes...nice to put faces to pf nicks...
> Some surprises too...
> 
> Cat Chat had members photo thread not long ago...
> Obviously who wanted...


I was only pulling your leg to


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I was only pulling your leg to


Now we both have uneven legs...


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> Now we both have uneven legs...


But yours are not as hairy as stockwellcat's


----------



## stockwellcat.

@cheekyscrip The clues are here within General Chat throughout various threads  

I'll leave you guessing because I am not going to say either way


----------



## cheekyscrip

ouesi said:


> But yours are not as hairy as stockwellcat's


Assumption!! Unless you work for Russian intelligence...
The last I remember [email protected] hairy legs was guess they might be a hobbit?
No one mentioned the T word...

I do not want to assume anything, based on stereotypes etc ...but if you are in Cat Chat you are a female unless stated otherwise and supported by evidence.

Lol.

Though I know some fairly burly all men with hordes of Persian cats ..


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Assumption!! Unless you work for Russian intelligence...
> The last I remember [email protected] hairy legs was guess they might be a hobbit?
> No one mentioned the T word...
> 
> I do not want to assume anything, based on stereotypes etc ...but if you are in Cat Chat you are a female unless stated otherwise and supported by evidence.
> 
> Lol.
> 
> Though I know some fairly burly all men with hordes of Persian cats ..


Hobbit. That's close.








But still a hobbit can be a male or female 

With hairy legs I must be cat woman (half cat half woman  if I am a woman at all).

Nope not a T either.

That's all I am saying. Keep guessing. I am still not saying either way.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> "They" meant @stockwellcat lol...as I have NPI they are male or female ( it was debated...but alas no one is sure...).
> 
> Sorry...been a bit sarcastic about the unicorns and rainbows of Brexit....
> Meant @stockwellcat most likely knows just as much about the Brexit malarky as BJ or TM or Fox ... they have NPI but still happy to pull the trigger... At least it looks this way?


Oops, that was all my fault because I thought you were SCat replying to my post! I really should take more water with it!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Oops, that was all my fault because I thought you were Cat replying to my post! I really should take more water with it!!


No wasn't me for a change


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> She's going to the EU and asking for everything and give nothing in retrun they are just going to laugh at her.


Time will tell my possums, someones gonna be eating their words,though
Will it be stock and me?
Or will it be the,rest of you?
Dont really care, because I'm on a weight loss plan I could eat anything at the moment and I'm assuming words aren't fattening


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Time will tell my possums, someones gonna be eating their words,though
> Will it be stock and me?
> Or will it be the,rest of you?
> Dont really care, because I'm on a weight loss plan I could eat anything at the moment and I'm assuming words aren't fattening


----------



## cheekyscrip

Better get fit as you will pick your own cabbages for many more years to come...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 297599


Gives me more time to save more money for my pension


----------



## cheekyscrip

From Business Insider:








Is used to be commies where politics preceded economy....

Sadly.
Historians and sociologists will write many books about how privileged private school educated rich persuaded the underprivileged that they actually represent them...

UK pulls out of EU.
Trump pulls out of NATO.

Funnily it might have been Brexit that tipped the scale in DT's favour and now his minion Farage bats for his team ...

How ironic...

UK was prosperous and doing well...


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas* ‏@*CarolineLucas* 3h3 hours ago

A rushed trade deal with the US could risk the environment, workers' rights & the battle against climate change:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eat-nhs-environment-food-safety-a7529836.html

Or as another expert says - "*A PM desperate for a quick deal; and a climate change denying opponent of state healthcare. What could go wrong?"*


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Hobbit. That's close.
> View attachment 297592
> 
> But still a hobbit can be a male or female
> 
> With hairy legs I must be cat woman (half cat half woman  if I am a woman at all).
> 
> Nope not a T either.
> 
> That's all I am saying. Keep guessing. I am still not saying either way.


I always imagine you're a 20 -odd, maybe 30 year old male? lol Am I close?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I always imagine you're a 20 -odd, maybe 30 year old male? lol Am I close?


I have let my age away many a time.
No comment


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> I always imagine you're a 20 -odd, maybe 30 year old male? lol Am I close?


Nope... they are grand age of 42...
Should have known better , shouldn't they...
But then they play GTA? So they are very young at heart....


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Nope... they are grand age of 42...
> Should have known better , shouldn't they...
> But then they play GTA? So they are very young at heart....


Why grow old?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I always imagine you're a 20 -odd, maybe 30 year old *male?* lol Am I close?


Nice try on finding out if I am male. No comment


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Nope... they are grand age of 42...
> Should have known better , shouldn't they...
> But then they play GTA? So they are very young at heart....


Blimey 42? I was waaaay out I thought I was dealing with a whipper -snapper not a middle aged .....er..human lol Yes it was playing on GTA that threw me!!!



stockwellcat said:


> Nice try on finding out if I am male. No comment


Hmmm very mysterious  We need Sherlock Holmes on this case @cheekyscrip lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Blimey 42? I was waaaay out I thought I was dealing with a whipper -snapper not a middle aged .....er..human lol Yes it was playing on GTA that threw me!!!
> 
> Hmmm very mysterious  We need Sherlock Holmes on this case @cheekyscrip lol


Well shall we look at the clues:

Hairy legs as everyone keeps pointing out (could I have been lazy and just not have shaved?).
Likes drinking Bombardier and Stella.
Likes playing on GTA5.
Has a pet cat.
Is 42 years old.
I am making no further comments


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Well shall we look at the clues:
> 
> Hairy legs as everyone keeps pointing out (could I have been lazy and just not have shaved?).
> Likes drinking Bombardier and Stella.
> Likes playing on GTA5.
> Has a pet cat.
> Is 42 years old.
> I am making no further comments


Sounds like a feminist?

@cheeky runs under the rock again...


----------



## stockwellcat.

So who paid for this the Welsh tax payer or the UK tax payer? They had less than a day in court and it cost £84,000.

Does anyone know how much Scotland got charged because no doubt the UK tax payer paid for there representation in the Supreme Court?

*Brexit case: Welsh Government defends spending £84,000*

The Welsh Government has defended spending more than £84,000 on the Brexit case at the Supreme Court.

Ministers intervened over whether the Article 50 process to leave the EU can be triggered without MPs' approval.

The Welsh Conservatives have found just over £79,000 was spent on legal fees, plus travel and accommodation costs.

Monmouth Tory MP David Davies called it a waste of money, but the Welsh Government said it would not apologise for protecting Wales' interests.

A High Court ruling that MPs had to vote to trigger Article 50 led to a UK government appeal to the Supreme Court.

The Welsh Government took part in that hearing in December, with a ruling by the Supreme Court expected later in January.

The figures have been disclosed as a result of a Freedom of Information request made by the Welsh Conservatives.

They cover both the costs of attending the original High Court case and participating in the Supreme Court appeal.

At the Supreme Court, the Welsh Government argued that triggering Article 50 would "significantly change" the devolution settlement as it applies to Wales.

But the UK government dismissed that argument as "tortuous".

The disclosure shows:



£79,074.43 was spent on external legal fees

£4,162.20 was spent on travel, subsistence and accommodation for the counsel general Mick Antoniw and three Welsh Government lawyers

£800 was spent on the application to intervene

£327.80 was spent on a meeting room at the Supreme Court

Monmouth Conservative MP David Davies said: "What an absolute waste of taxpayers' cash, and all to pay for Mick Antoniw's tortuous bid to block Brexit.

"Ultimately, the weakness of the Welsh Government's case exposed this venture for what it was - a peacocking exercise, motivated by a combination of ego and an unwillingness to abide by the democratic process.

"It might not seem like a grand sum in the context of the Welsh Government's overall budget, but that kind of money could have paid for four full time Welsh NHS nurses which would have been a much better use of taxpayers' money."

'Act within the law'
The Welsh Government has denied that the case was a bid to block Brexit.

A spokesman said: "We do not apologise for intervening in what is one of the most significant constitutional legal cases in the UK's history.

"We did so to protect the interests of Wales and its devolved institutions.

"The people of the UK voted to leave the European Union, and we respect that decision.

"While Brexit will happen, the UK government cannot trigger it by overriding the British constitution.

"They need to act within the law.

"In the Supreme Court, we argued the process of leaving the EU must be carried out within the law, which includes respecting and adhering to the constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom and the legal framework for devolution."

Edited: Whoops I forgot to add the source of this information: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38636508?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## stockwellcat.

I think I know why now the Government are willing to let the Customs Union and the Single Market go if the EU don't agree to the Governments red line on EU migration. It costs billions of pounds or euros a year to stay in the customs union and the Single Market plus the EU won't let the UK remain in the single market because we are stopping one of there 4 rules on the free movement.

You do know the UK can walk away at anytime without a deal in the next two years?

I do believe that EU ministers are getting a little paranoid at the moment. The speech tomorrow from TM, BJ and DD needs to calm things down as well as set out the UKs firm negotiating plans not hand.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I think I know why now the Government are willing to let the Customs Union and the Single Market go if the EU don't agree to the Governments red line on EU migration. It costs billions of pounds or euros a year to stay in the customs union and the Single Market plus the EU won't let the UK remain in the single market because we are stopping one of there 4 rules on the free movement.
> 
> You do know the UK can walk away at anytime without a deal in the next two years?
> 
> I do believe that EU ministers are getting a little paranoid at the moment. The speech tomorrow from TM, BJ and DD needs to calm things down as well as set out the UKs firm negotiating plans not hand.


Calm things down...
Hope...because every time TM opens her mouth it costs UK blns of pounds..

So much for the costs of Welsh 84k...
They try to save the whole of Wales..
Bit late in a day...

Of course UK can walk out without a deal and strike one with Trump...mediated by Farage...

Just grand.

All maybe walk together out of NATO ...
Into Lalaland ...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Calm things down...
> Hope...because every time TM opens her mouth it costs UK blns of pounds..
> 
> So much for the costs of Welsh 84k...
> They try to save the whole of Wales..
> Bit late in a day...
> 
> Of course UK can walk out without a deal and strike one with Trump...mediated by Farage...
> 
> Just grand.
> 
> All maybe walk together out of NATO ...
> Into Lalaland ...


The UK aren't leaving NATO by the way 

The UK are also looking to strike 2 trade deals on the otherside of the world you know with New Zealand and Australia not just the USA. You do know the USA has one of the biggest free trade agreements outside of the EU and high GDP? That is why the EU want to have a free trade deal with the USA as well but have so far failed to reach an agreement.

Yes I did see the interview on TV this evening on Sky News with the Green Party MP and Conservative MP there are points that both of them highlighted that I agree with and disagree with.

The Government tomorrow need to make the UK look strong by laying out it's red lines are and what Brexit will actually mean when it triggers article 50.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> The UK aren't leaving NATO by the way
> 
> The UK are also looking to strike 2 trade deals on the otherside of the world you know with New Zealand and Australia not just the USA. You do know the USA has one of the biggest free trade agreements outside of the EU and high GDP? That is why the EU want to have a free trade deal with the USA as well but have so far failed to reach an agreement.
> 
> Yes I did see the interview on TV this evening on Sky News with the Green Party MP and Conservative MP there are points that both of them highlighted that I agree with and disagree with.
> 
> The Government tomorrow need to make the UK look strong by laying out it's red lines are and what Brexit will actually mean when it triggers article 50.


Do you know who Putin represents?
Whose money is behind hi and why not welcome in EU?
Do you know whose money is behind DT?.
Who wanted him to be president and lift sanctions?
Who is no 1 in money laundering?
Money laundering being third world biggest industry....
Who wants UK as a tax haven?
Who was losing billions as anti laundering bodies were closing on them?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Do you know who Putin represents?
> Whose money is behind hi and why not welcome in EU?
> Do you know whose money is behind DT?.
> Who wanted him to be president and lift sanctions?
> Who is no 1 in money laundering?
> Money laundering being third world biggest industry....


I know you will disagree.
But it has been proven that a former UK MI6 agent was behind the fake Russian hacking scandal. He has recently gone into hiding. The Russian Hacking incident was fake even the American Intelligence agencies dismissed it a day after it was found out a former UK MI6 agent made it all up. The former MI6 agent hasn't been seen since because he and his family is in hiding because he fears for his life thinking Russian spies will take him out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> *Who wants UK as a tax haven?*


The UK Government. Philip Hammond announced this.

Surely Russia is behind your unfounded conspiracy theory and told Philip Hammond to say this?


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Do you know whose money is behind DT?.


Give us a clue chuck


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> The UK aren't leaving NATO by the way
> 
> The UK are also looking to strike 2 trade deals on the otherside of the world you know with New Zealand and Australia not just the USA. You do know the USA has one of the biggest free trade agreements outside of the EU and high GDP? That is why the EU want to have a free trade deal with the USA as well but have so far failed to reach an agreement.
> 
> Yes I did see the interview on TV this evening on Sky News with the Green Party MP and Conservative MP there are points that both of them highlighted that I agree with and disagree with.
> 
> The Government tomorrow need to make the UK look strong by laying out it's red lines are and what Brexit will actually mean when it triggers article 50.


Totally agree, and if Merkal gets stroppy we can always do what DT suggests and bang a higher tax rate on cars imported from Germany
And French cheese and wine
And Dutch erm erm erm CLOGS awh and tulips


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat said:


> But it has been proven that a former UK MI6 agent was behind the fake Russian hacking scandal. He has recently gone into hiding. The Russian Hacking incident was fake even the American Intelligence agencies dismissed it a day after it was found out a former UK MI6 agent made it all up.


No, sorry, that's not correct. US intelligence agencies have not dismissed the Russian hacking at all....


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I think I know


Would help if you appreciated the advantages of the EU and the single market for the UK. You ignore actual facts about them though.


----------



## Goblin

ouesi said:


> No, sorry, that's not correct. US intelligence agencies have not dismissed the Russian hacking at all....


Has to be true, Trump and his supporters says it is along with media such as the Daily Mail. Trump is extremely evasive about Russian influence.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Give us a clue chuck


Who is appointed by DT and is making big money in Russia?
Plus if you look who backed his campaign...


----------



## Goblin

Talking about Russia, I think their dabbling was becoming too obvious.. http://www.france24.com/en/20170105...arine-le-pen-russia-finance-election-campaign


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Who is appointed by DT and is making big money in Russia?
> Plus if you look who backed his campaign...


Not stockwellcat:Greedy


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> Who is appointed by DT and is making big money in Russia?


This is just one example. 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...quandaries-trump-russia-conflicts-of-interest


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> *I do believe that EU ministers are getting a little paranoid at the moment. *The speech tomorrow from TM, BJ and DD needs to calm things down as well as set out the UKs firm negotiating plans not hand.


If anyone is getting paranoid it's British press there are the ones causing most of the problems.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Not stockwellcat:Greedy


@DT  
Very funny
I was going to say @DT


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Sounds like a feminist?
> 
> *@cheeky runs under the rock again...*


There's no need to hide under Gibraltar (the rock) 

Have you decided if I am a man or woman yet?


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Brexit speech is today at 11:45am (GMT).

The news are saying looking at the evidence the UK will be coming out of the Single Market because the EU won't let the UK stay in it because we want to control the movement of people from the Europe. The news have also said they think the Government is seeking a clean break with the EU and no half in, half out deal.

Roll on the speech at 11:45am (GMT).


----------



## noushka05

Series of tweets retweeted by an expert >>

When #*TheresaMay* confirms the country's worst kept secret - that UK's headed for hard #*Brexit* - it'll have little to do with democracy. 1

2. There's no majority for leaving the single market. Britons may resent free movement, but few are prepared to pay anything to end it

3.. May has done nothing to explain to voters the trade-offs they face between sovereignty over EU immigration & economic security.

4. Instead she's persisted with the dishonesty that trade-offs don't exist. Voters have little idea of costs they'll incur by leaving S.M.

5. Why has #*TheresaMay* failed to outline these trade-offs? After all, she backed #*Remain*, despite her ambivalence about free movement

6. Because she's been running scared from Eurosceptics in her party & #*UK*'a right-wing europhobic newspapers ever since she came to power.

7 Hard #*Brexit* won't happen because UK voters have given #*TheresaMay* no choice. But because the Tory Party & its press cheerleaders need it.

....an elite coup in many respects


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Series of tweets retweeted by an expert >>
> 
> When #*TheresaMay* confirms the country's worst kept secret - that UK's headed for hard #*Brexit* - it'll have little to do with democracy. 1
> 
> 2. There's no majority for leaving the single market. Britons may resent free movement, but few are prepared to pay anything to end it
> 
> 3.. May has done nothing to explain to voters the trade-offs they face between sovereignty over EU immigration & economic security.
> 
> 4. Instead she's persisted with the dishonesty that trade-offs don't exist. Voters have little idea of costs they'll incur by leaving S.M.
> 
> 5. Why has #*TheresaMay* failed to outline these trade-offs? After all, she backed #*Remain*, despite her ambivalence about free movement
> 
> 6. Because she's been running scared from Eurosceptics in her party & #*UK*'a right-wing europhobic newspapers ever since she came to power.
> 
> 7 Hard #*Brexit* won't happen because UK voters have given #*TheresaMay* no choice. But because the Tory Party & its press cheerleaders need it.
> 
> ....an elite coup in many respects


What expert tweeted this? You failed to let us know.

1. The UK will be leaving the EU.
2. Because the UK will be controlling it's borders with the rest of Europe under EU rules the UK can't stay in the single market because the UK will be restricting one of the freedoms of movement enshrined in EU treaties. So the Government is right to say that we will lose access to the Single Market.
3. What trade offs do you think the UK have to do? The UK can walk away from the negotiations at anytime with no deal to protect this from happening.
4. Which part of leaving don't you understand? Leaving means going not staying or having one foot in the door and one foot out. The UK has only been half in the EU and half out of the EU for over 4 decades.
5. The UK voted to leave the EU, full stop end of.
6. It was agreed by MPs from across the UK that there would be no majorities in the referendum rules and therefore no majority vote was needed for an end decision on the matter. Over 17 million people made there voices heard on the 23rd June 2016.


----------



## KittenKong

Will Scotland and Brexit opponents become May's new "Enemy Within"?

It looks like she's deliberately looking for conflict.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I haven't been proud of been British long before Breixt, most, not all are a self centred people who think everyone should speak english and get what the want where ever we go, nothing there to be proud of there.


I agree entirely. The things I was proud of include the NHS and being part of the European Union.

A rare proud moment for me was catching a glimpse of "Last Night at the Proms" last year with EU flags waved with the usual Union Jacks.

The kind of people you mention would doubtless have voted leave.

Thankfully, as the referendum showed a good percentage, just under half who voted (not forgetting the 16-17 year olds prohibited from voting), proved this is not a representation of all "British" people.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> What expert tweeted this? You failed to let us know.
> 3. What trade offs do you think the UK have to do? The UK can walk away from the negotiations at anytime with no deal to protect this from happening.


You keep saying this. I have yet to see you explain in detail why you think it would be a workable, yet alone good, idea.


----------



## stockwellcat.

TMs speech so far is very good.


Both houses of Parliament will get a vote on the final Brexit Deal.
The UK cannot remain in the Single Market but will negotiate greatest possible access to the Single Market.
The UK will control the amount of people coming to the UK.
The UK will renegotiate it's access to the Customs Union as the UK wants access to it and be able to trade with the rest of the world beyond the EU.
TM is explaining the negotiation points very well. She is being very clear as well.

The pound reacted as expected and is rising against the dollar and euro.
£1 = $1.23 up 2.40%
£1 = €1.15 up 1.47%


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> TMs speech so far is very good.


Indeed. Utterly brilliant. In combination with the newspaper interviews Hammond gave in Germany at the weeked (apparently cleard by no 10) there can be no doubt about where the lines in the sand lie. Pitch perfect, measured, wonderful stuff.


----------



## noushka05

BREAKING:


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> BREAKING:
> View attachment 297669


It was nothing like the above. Instead of being nasty try watching the speech she was very good in explaining things.

http://news.sky.com/story/final-brexit-deal-with-be-voted-on-by-both-houses-of-parliament-10732188

http://news.sky.com/story/live-will-theresa-may-deliver-on-brexit-day-10731917


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> 1.48 not 1.50. @Satori cashed in his pounds for dollars at the right time
> 
> The currencies will stabilise after the speech tomorrow. It doesn't help the news is spouting out unfounded information (it's unfounded because Downing Street is denying it) at the moment which the currencies are reacting to.


My dollars were acquired at 1.58 on average. Took some profit and now in a balanced low risk portfolio of GBP/CHF/USD half cash and half US large caps. Thanks to Trump, even that portfolio is churning out returns. Not looking to place any bets ATM though unless I can find a nice classic 911 at the right price.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The UK voted to leave the EU, full stop end of.












You cannot state that 17 million voted for the above even if that's what you wanted.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> View attachment 297668
> 
> 
> You cannot state that 17 million voted for the above even if that's what you wanted.


Instead of being a nasty troll trying being a Goblin and go and pick on someone else. We are well past this now and are leaving the EU. Again instead of being nasty read what TM says on the links given to @noushka05.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The pound reacted as expected and is rising against the dollar and euro.
> £1 = $1.23 up 2.03%
> £1 = €1.15 up 1.01%


Hardly a shock, markets dropped previously having been told what to expect. Wouldn't do to have a drop for the speech would it. Bad for spin.



stockwellcat said:


> Instead of being a nasty troll trying being a Goblin and go and pick on someone else. We are well past this now and are leaving the EU. Again instead of being nasty read what TM says on the links given to @noushka05.


Back to the insults rather than facts then stockwellcat. Put simply, we are not and we will not be past this. Our children's future is more important than that. Hint, it's called democracy, something which many leave campaigners seem to think shouldn't apply.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Hardly a shock, markets dropped previously having been told what to expect. Wouldn't do to have a drop for the speech would it. Bad for spin.
> 
> Back to the insults rather than facts then stockwellcat. Put simply, we are not and we will not be past this. Our children's future is more important than that.


This is easily solved.
This discussion is over. It's not my problem you can't get past this.


----------



## KittenKong

I can't wait for the backlash this will create.

"Unite" the country? If anything the UK will be divided more than ever.

As Goblin said, not all the 17 million who voted leave will be in favour of this even if a percentage of them do.

And no talk of money for the NHS?!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> This is easily solved. It is over and so is this discussion.


:Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious :Brb :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> View attachment 297668
> 
> 
> You cannot state that 17 million voted for the above even if that's what you wanted.


Full speed ahead thats what I say, the day we cut the strings cant come soon enough


----------



## Goblin

No shock you say that DT. Yet you cannot state advantages to doing so which are factually based.


----------



## KittenKong

This doesn't make sense. How can you possibly leave the single market yet expect "partial access" to it. Surely the 27 EU countries would have something to say about that, especially the "continued tarriff free" trading.










How can immigration be "controlled" without a hard border between the NI-UK and ROI-EU?

And the EU's rights to control UK immigration and vice versa? This certainly hasn't reassured EU migrants to the UK and vice versa.

May is fond of the term, "Best Possible" isn't she. Quite a catchphrase.......


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Full speed ahead thats what I say, the day we cut the strings cant come soon enough


Your turn for Goblins relentless negativity.


----------



## Goblin

KittenKong said:


> How can immigration be "controlled" without a hard border between the NI-UK and ROI-EU?


Can't unless you have border posts on the mainland ignoring NI. Most people will not realise that of course so it sounds great despite the obvious incompatibility of the two.

Of course they are only points of negotiation, not actually what we will get. Negotiations backed by the threat of Trump and and becoming a tax haven.



stockwellcat said:


> Your turn for Goblins relentless negativity.


You're back


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.open-britain.co.uk/?emai...s]=&address_change[distance]=25&commit=Search


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Your turn for Goblins relentless negativity.


Asking the difficult questions != relentless negativity. 

Unless your name is Donald Trump, in which case I claim my $5


----------



## samuelsmiles

Satori said:


> My dollars were acquired at 1.58 on average. Took some profit and now in a balanced low risk portfolio of GBP/CHF/USD half cash and half US large caps. Thanks to Trump, even that portfolio is churning out returns. Not looking to place any bets ATM though* unless I can find a nice classic 911 at the right price*.


Cool - what year? I had a 1967 champagne yellow 912 a few years back.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Your turn for Goblins relentless negativity.


Whos goblin?


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> No shock you say that DT. Yet you cannot state advantages to doing so which are factually based.


Here ya go
FACT there are a fair proportion of us,who want out! As for the advantages or disadvantages, we have to wait and see, we all will, no one knows for sure the outcome, ok we may have a,few tough years, but plenty have had it tough anyway im fed up of hearing from the so-called experts because let's face it if they are such clever shamazing experts then we wouldn't even have gotton into this mess in the first place  or werent they experts then?


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> I agree entirely. The things I was proud of include the NHS and being part of the European Union.
> 
> A rare proud moment for me was catching a glimpse of "Last Night at the Proms" last year with EU flags waved with the usual Union Jacks.
> 
> The kind of people you mention would doubtless have voted leave.
> 
> Thankfully, as the referendum showed a good percentage, just under half who voted (not forgetting the 16-17 year olds prohibited from voting), proved this is not a representation of all "British" people.


Well half the 17 and 18 year olds can't even tie their shoelaces yet so not sure that we want them voting,


----------



## 1290423

anyway off on my five mile scroll with my milly, catch you later,


----------



## 1290423

DT is out of The Office if you wish to leave a message please do so after the tone.................if you're message is urgent please Converse directly with Stockwellcat

Ps it you dont get the tone we dont want to listen to you so please delete your post .


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Actually....I always thought you were a lady...my apologies if got it wrong...just as 99% of C
> @cheeky blushes...


She might be a woman but she aint no lady ! :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> She might be a woman but she aint no lady ! :Hilarious


It is established it is a feminist..unshaven , beer swilling and killing random men ( on playstation).
Oh , and has a cat and admires TM.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> DT is out of The Office if you wish to leave a message please do so after the tone.................if you're message is urgent please Converse directly with Stockwellcat
> 
> Ps it you dont get the tone we dont want to listen to you so please delete your post .


While away please read very short guide to what Brexit means and very basic info on most important parts of it.

It is explained in a way that no experts can comprehend it too.


----------



## noushka05

Caroline Lucas, a politician with cast iron integrity - Mays polar opposite!








*Caroline Lucas* ‏@*CarolineLucas* 2h2 hours ago

.@*TheGreenParty* will fight any attempt to turn Britain into a free-market tax haven on the edge of Europe.
Utter vandalism. #*Brexit*
Deeply worrying that still no explanation of what happens if negotiations take longer than 2 years - no safety net under cliff edge #*Brexit*


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas* ‏@*CarolineLucas* 4m4 minutes ago

Why is a tax haven Britain so worrying? Look at our NHS. Taxes pay for our public services, without proper funding they collapse.#*Brexit*


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> DT is out of The Office if you wish to leave a message please do so after the tone.................if you're message is urgent please Converse directly with Stockwellcat
> 
> Ps it you dont get the tone we dont want to listen to you so please delete your post .


Don't bring me into it.

Stockwellcat is out of office to and you won't get any tone from me anymore on this topic as stockwellcat is not responding anymore on this thread @DT.

If you want to guess if I am a man of woman open another thread and poll and even have a Referendum and vote on the topic if you wish @cheekyscrip  but I am never going to let you know


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Asking the difficult questions != relentless negativity.
> 
> Unless your name is Donald Trump, in which case I claim my $5


There you go








That's the big question though. Am I man or a woman, am I DT or TM or neither. Ask @cheekyscrip


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Here ya go
> FACT there are a fair proportion of us,who want out!


Who are prepared to trample over everyone else in the process based on nothing but optimism. They'll be quick enough to blame someone else though.


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> Well half the 17 and 18 year olds can't even tie their shoelaces yet so not sure that we want them voting,


Well there's a lot over 18 who can't, that's why we got the result we did


----------



## samuelsmiles

Goblin said:


> Hardly a shock, markets dropped previously having been told what to expect. Wouldn't do to have a drop for the speech would it. Bad for spin.
> 
> Back to the insults rather than facts then stockwellcat. Put simply, we are not and we will not be past this. Our children's future is more important than that. Hint,* it's called democracy*, something which many leave campaigners seem to think shouldn't apply.


Just as a matter of interest, would you have called the process democratic had the result been exactly the opposte? I would.


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> Just as a matter of interest, would you have called the process democratic had the result been exactly the opposte? I would.


Democracy is more than a single vote no matter what the result. It's an ongoing process. It's changing ideas as they go and yes, actually allowing people to change their minds when more information is provided. We get given that opportunity every 4 years at a general election. For some reason people aren't allowed to do the same for a non-reversible tragedy before we run over the cliff like lemmings.

We know people have changed their opinions.

Remember Farage, he who vowed to fight on if Remain won the EU referendum, speaking in central London? For some reason when it goes the other way we are all supposed to be silent when inconvenient details like facts are highlighted.


----------



## noushka05

More from Caroline Lucas.










And Nicola Sturgeon's response. If only we had leaders like these two.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Goblin said:


> Democracy is more than a single vote no matter what the result. It's an ongoing process. It's changing ideas as they go and yes, actually allowing people to change their minds when more information is provided. We get given that opportunity every 4 years at a general election. For some reason people aren't allowed to do the same for a non-reversible tragedy before we run over the cliff like lemmings.
> 
> We know people have changed their opinions.
> 
> Remember Farage, he who vowed to fight on if Remain won the EU referendum, speaking in central London? For some reason when it goes the other way we are all supposed to be silent when inconvenient details like facts are highlighted.


Ok. So let's say we have another referendum with the information we have now and the exact same result occurs? What do we do then?


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> Well there's a lot over 18 who can't, that's why we got the result we did


Duh! And here I was wondering why they made trainers and shoes for adults that fastened with Velcro


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> Ok. So let's say we have another referendum with the information we have now and the exact same result occurs? What do we do then?


Wait until negotiations completed than vote for final resolution. Leave, we'd leave, if remain won we'd have a push for another leave referendum later wouldn't we until they won again at some time. That's the reality.

Sad fact is the public hasn't a chance of making an informed decision based on media or politicians. May's speech great example of saying nothing about the cons of the stance the UK is taken. Better chance than the previous referendum though when a lot of people simply voted against cameron expecting the remain to win.


----------



## KittenKong

Sad fact too many fell for the xenophobia and lies given by the leave campaign.

I predicted a Leave win as soon as The Sun backed them.

I don't think for a second Leave would've won had they told their readers to back Remain.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Don't bring me into it.
> 
> Stockwellcat is out of office to and you won't get any tone from me anymore on this topic as stockwellcat is not responding anymore on this thread @DT.
> 
> If you want to guess if I am a man of woman open another thread and poll and even have a Referendum and vote on the topic if you wish @cheekyscrip  but I am never going to let you know


Well..I have no problem with that... Pretty easy to guess from my last photo ( pink ball gown and tiara...) unless I am in drag...

What worries me thstbin TM's speech Gibraltar was not mentioned.
Not important enough or already written off....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Absence of Gibraltar in TM's speech is very worrying for people over here.
Especially if NI/ Ireland issues were given a lot of cover....

So have we been traded to Spain already or just no one cares?


----------



## noushka05

About sums it up.

*Rufus HoundVerified account*‏@*RufusHound* 7h7 hours ago
pic.twitter.com/cAoUqighR9


----------



## Goblin

Response from german MP Norbert Rottgen to UK government's threats:



> The UK's two main economic weaknesses are its considerable trade deficit and a big budget deficit. As such, Hammond's threats with duties and tax cuts would primarily damage the U.K. and should be regarded as an expression of British cluelessness


They say a picture speaks a thousand words..









cheekyscrip said:


> So have we been traded to Spain already or just no one cares?


Seems May is only listening to 17 million people and grabbing personal political power instead of the whole population and considering their best interests.


----------



## noushka05

This picture speaks a thousand words, too.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dreaded experts say:















So after taking out all spiel and platitudes?

Still Brexit means cutting immigration from EU at the expense of access to single market, sacrificing of passporting financial services , growing inflation with stagnation of wages, later retirement, fewer foreign students and generally becoming a much poorer nation, though those at the top might get richer still as corporate tax gets lower...

Oh well...when working class follows " The Sun"...


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> access to single market, sacrificing of passporting financial services , growing inflation with stagnation of wages, later retirement, fewer foreign students and generally becoming a much poorer nation, though those at the top might get richer still as corporate tax gets lower...


No, if we don't access to single market, passporting etc we'll throw a strop, blame the EU and become a tax haven to spite them causing more damage to ourselves whilst patting ourselves on the back 'cos we showed em.


----------



## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> This picture speaks a thousand words, too.


sshh, that's not the story now. Everybody knew it meant leaving the single market. We'll say that loud and often and it becomes truth. The following does not exist..:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...arage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce


----------



## cheekyscrip

Wonder when those voted Leave to protest against austerity woke up?
Poorer...
View attachment 297701


----------



## rona

Good on her


----------



## shadowmare

cheekyscrip said:


> Wonder when those voted Leave to protest against austerity woke up?
> Poorer...
> View attachment 297701
> View attachment 297702


Genuinely, 0% empathy or even sympathy. Nothing at all. When the poor become poorer they can blame the unelected politician for screwing them over. Could not care any less to be honest. 
P.S. Still waiting to find out whether I get to remain or am told to leave.


----------



## cheekyscrip

shadowmare said:


> Genuinely, 0% empathy or even sympathy. Nothing at all. When the poor become poorer they can blame the unelected politician for screwing them over. Could not care any less to be honest.
> P.S. Still waiting to find out whether I get to remain or am told to leave.


Some of my friends left already. After many years of hard work...but at least they have professional qualifications to work elsewhere and enough money if they were not working.
They felt uncomfortable and it was not worth it.


----------



## 1290423

I reckon TM is doing a sterling job myself


----------



## Satori

samuelsmiles said:


> Cool - what year? I had a 1967 champagne yellow 912 a few years back.


Oh how gorgeous. RHD? The 'holy grail' early 911 models have gone mental and I won't pay a fortune to line someone else's pocket so I am looking for a relatively ignored model that would still be in five figures. A late varioram 993 manual with very low mileage or a 996 gt3 mk2 would likely fit the bill. Most of what's on the market is crap at the moment but I'll be patient. Might jump for a mint condition 997 gen 2 c2s pdk if I can find one but that would be driven more because it will depreciate for sure.


----------



## samuelsmiles

The first 911s and 912s were simply perfection to look at, but, yes, unaffordable now. Hey, I'm sick of Brexit - I'll start a car thread.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Our Neighbours family who retired to France has just moved back here, their money isn't going as far as it did and they can't afford to live there anymore. I wonder how many others will have to do the same in the next few years.


----------



## 1290423

wasnt we about ready for a hike in inflation anyway? Yes we have had the luxury of low inflation for sometime now, but someone somewhere pays for this one way or another, of late the working people in their wage packets!
Tbh it's all false anyway as so many necesseaties are excluded from the inflation figures.
As one door closes another one opens so they say.
That's me done on this thread all the whole country has done of late is go round in circles

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/2647/economics/history-of-inflation-in-uk/


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> sshh, that's not the story now. Everybody knew it meant leaving the single market. We'll say that loud and often and it becomes truth. The following does not exist..:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...arage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce


lol Is there actually anything they haven't lied about & back-peddled on?

And here's the latest humdinger


----------



## noushka05

Had to smile at this >

*UK public voted for Brexit "with their eyes wide open," says **#TheresaMay**.

Problem is those eyes were looking at a bus with bullshit on it*


----------



## noushka05

Brutal (yet brilliant!)


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> lol Is there actually anything they haven't lied about & back-peddled on?
> 
> And here's the latest humdinger
> 
> View attachment 297762


Like the speech yesterday she's delusional to believe everyone in her glorious nation now unanimously back her and Brexit.

What planet is she on?!


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Brutal (yet brilliant!)]


Yes! Brilliant.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Jesthar

A thought suddenly struck me last night.

The EU and the Single Market are separate entities, as it is possible to be a member of the Single Market without being a member of the EU.

I didn't see any mention of the Single Market on the referendum ballot.

Therefore, does the govenment actually have the mandate to leave the EU _and_ the Single Market, or only the EU? Give that the ballot only asked about the EU aspect.

Come to that, I think the same applies to the Customs Union too...


----------



## Goblin

Jesthar said:


> Therefore, does the govenment actually have the mandate to leave the EU _and_ the Single Market, or only the EU?


According to the minority, those who want it, yes she does have a mandate, not that they can explain why we should leave based on facts other than we say to.

Let's face it, already been told by David Davis that MP's don't have any power even when allowed a vote and government will do what it wants regardless. That's democracy in action.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> A thought suddenly struck me last night.
> 
> *The EU and the Single Market are separate entities,* as it is possible to be a member of the Single Market without being a member of the EU.


I don't think they are

https://fullfact.org/europe/what-single-market/


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws said:


> I don't think they are
> 
> https://fullfact.org/europe/what-single-market/


If you can be a member of one without being a member of the other, then they are by definition separate. True, dual membership is the most common scenario, but it isn't necessary.


----------



## Goblin

EU is single market. Other alternatives such as Norway are part of the EEA (The European Economic Area). Switzerland I believe, haven't checked it up, have something like 120+ individual treaties to cover things. EU dictated terms to switzerland which they accepted eventually including free movement.

The EU is saying you cannot be outside the EU and claim access to the single market. That's been their position all along. Norway has a toe in the door as part of the EEA and pays for priviliege whilst accepting free movement. Free movement also comes with the swiss deal.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> According to the minority, those who want it, yes she does have a mandate, not that they can explain why we should leave based on facts other than we say to.
> 
> Let's face it, already been told by David Davis that MP's don't have any power even when allowed a vote and government will do what it wants regardless. That's democracy in action.


Yes indeed, leaving the EU didn't have to mean leaving the single market. As Goblin says countries such as Norway have access to the single market, thus freedom of movement.

The problem is May has been obsessed with reducing immigration the moment she became Home Secretary. Immigration actually increased under her watch . Xenophobes blamed the EU so I can see why she's opted for the hard Brexit however detrimental to the economy etc.

She could well fail again in reducing immigration, she might also have to contend with UK migrants having to return if, say Spain get a similar far right government with an anti immigrant policy in the future.


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed, leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the single market. As Goblin says countries such as Norway have access to the single market, thus freedom of movement.
> 
> The problem is May has been obsessed with reducing immigration the moment she became Home Secretary. Immigration actually increased under her watch . Xenophobes blamed the EU so I can see why she's opted for the hard Brexit however detrimental to the economy etc.
> 
> She could well fail again in reducing immigration, she might also have to contend with UK migrants having to return if, say Spain get a similar far right government with an anti immigrant policy in the future.


I also don't think people realise the impact that leaving the single market and the customs union will have on imports and exports in general. Currently all of our trade and customs agreements are via those, so if we leave them as well as the EU, we're back to the days of full border checks, quarantine, standards testing etc. until new deals can be made. Implementing that is going to be expensive, too.


----------



## Goblin

Getting worse.. UK threatening the EU with becoming at tax haven, EU saying we cannot get the benefits without the responsibilities, result:

Boris Johnson sparks uproar as he compares French president Francois Hollande to PoW guard in Brexit row
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...hollande-to-pow-guard-in-brexit-a3443701.html


----------



## KittenKong

How sad is that.

The UK were once friends with these wonderful countries.

I don't believe the UK deserve special privileges from the EU. The UK isn't superior for heavens sake. 

May even having the cheek to call her country, "Global Britain".

Britain doesn't rule the world! It's just a small island geographically within Western Europe.

They'll be taken down a peg or two, and quite rightly in my view.

They're getting as bad as Trump in making enemies. Well I guess the taunting is deliberate to wind up former allies so they can blame the EU when the talks break down then blame the EU for the hard Brexit.

Johnson may act a fool but he's not stupid.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Yes, blame EU. Demand press to be banned from publishing antiBrexit. , Force every expert or executive, chairman , executive of anything that matters to resign if they do not support hard Brexit/ Tory ....

Put walls around the country.


WELCOME to police state.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes, blame EU. Demand press to be banned from publishing antiBrexit. , Force every expert or executive, chairman , executive of anything that matters to resign if they do not support hard Brexit/ Tory ....
> 
> Put walls around the country.
> 
> WELCOME to police state.


Yes, aren't they going to collect internet data soon too? Yes it was originally Labour's proposal and David Davies was dead against it, the one and only time I agreed with him on anything.

One rule for Labour, another for the Tories it seems...


----------



## kimthecat

oh dear , who's going to tell Simon we're not friends with Europe any more


----------



## Satori

kimthecat said:


> oh dear , who's going to tell Simon we're not friends with Europe any more


Simon is a smart fellow. He knows we never were. Captives, yes.


----------



## cheekyscrip

So Tories and their donors got their heart desire: Convert UK into tax haven, low corporate tax...
That to get it they had to take UK out of EU and make the poor even poorer?

Do people get it that all that infrastructure so abused supposedly by EU immigrants , is paid by taxes?

If corporate tax is low or individual taxes rise or there is no money for NHS etc...
Maybe Leave should put on the buses the end of NHS?

Vote Leave and convert your country into corpo paradise....

Vote for inflation, price rise, visas to cross the channel and much more...


----------



## KittenKong

None of that will matter of course.
A certain paper will give free China made bannered Union Jacks and "Up yours *****" (derogatory term for a neighbouring country not used since the '70s) 2 page bannered poster for readers to put in their windows. How wonderfully British....

That'll make everything all right wouldn't it....


----------



## KittenKong

Enjoy your Brexit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38663537


----------



## kimthecat

Satori said:


> Simon is a smart fellow. He knows we never were. Captives, yes.


We'll always be footballs friends though .


----------



## MollySmith

There has been some interesting meetings in our area following May's speech. This city voted overwhelmingly to remain.

So many of our scientists and academics come from global communities. The applications to our universities have halved (which also affects tourism). Likewise we have lots of Fenland businesses who employ workers to pick veg, one called Gee's, have reported to parliament today that they are worried for their business as they rely on workers from abroad. They have run apprenticeship schemes for UK works through the local job centre who said to stop as it was wasting their time! Of 12 suitable interviewees, only 2 were employed last year.

A few businesses said it was fair enough, too hard to predict the outcome but many also said that they were hoping for a more tangible way forward.


----------



## cheekyscrip

So TM gave this positive, friendly spiel...then out crawled BJ and called Hollande PoW guard and parked about Nazi beating...

Can TM tell her minion that he is no longer a journalist writing funny, rude column but Foreign Secretary and gets paid for that ?


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> So TM gave this positive, friendly spiel...then out crawled BJ and called Hollande PoW guard and parked about Nazi beating...
> 
> Can TM tell her minion that he is no longer a journalist writing funny, rude column but Foreign Secretary and gets paid for that ?


We has POWs in this country you know and he didn't mention Nazis at all! Bloody press and remainers stirring the pot


----------



## rona

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/german-prisoners-of-war-in-camp


----------



## kimthecat

What exactly did he say ?


----------



## Jesthar

Found this to be an interesting read:

http://neweconomics.org/2017/01/theresa-may-brexit-said-means/


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> What exactly did he say ?











He was still being funny journalist, but it is time to fire him. No point of enraging countries we have to cooperate with?

What a ****...does lots of damage to Britain.
One cannot spout whatever in his position.
GenChat is for that. Maybe he should join?


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

kimthecat said:


> What exactly did he say ?


This is what he said .....

*Mr Johnson's remark came during a visit to India, when he was asked about a reported comment from one of Mr Hollande's aides, who said Britain should not expect a better trading relationship with Europe from outside the EU.

Mr Johnson responded: "If Monsieur Hollande wants to administer punishment beatings to anyone who chooses to escape, rather in the manner of some World War Two movie, then I don't think that's the way forward.

"It's not in the interests of our friends or our partners."*

Not a Nazi salute in sight.

J


----------



## rona

https://www.quora.com/Which-country-was-the-most-brutal-towards-POWs-in-WWII

"So we can see that in general, the Western Allies treated their German prisoners adequately, as did the Germans in respect to the Western Allies".


----------



## KittenKong

Incredible isn't it. They still expect privileges and special treatment from the EU, believing stirring up trouble and making threats (I mean from May's speech here) will give them that?

I fail to understand this superiority complex. Why do some believe their country is superior to another? I just don't get that....

Some may argue it's the "bulldog spirit".

I have no time for this Nationalist nonsense. There was enough of that from Germany in the '30s.....


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38670349


----------



## kimthecat

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> This is what he said .....
> 
> *Mr Johnson's remark came during a visit to India, when he was asked about a reported comment from one of Mr Hollande's aides, who said Britain should not expect a better trading relationship with Europe from outside the EU.
> 
> Mr Johnson responded: "If Monsieur Hollande wants to administer punishment beatings to anyone who chooses to escape, rather in the manner of some World War Two movie, then I don't think that's the way forward.
> 
> "It's not in the interests of our friends or our partners."*
> 
> Not a Nazi salute in sight.
> 
> J


Thanks , I couldnt get @cheekyscrip film to run . perhaps not diplomatic to mention the war but no mentions of nazis it seems !


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hallenge-ken-clarke-anna-soubry-a7534376.html


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Thanks , I couldnt get @cheekyscrip film to run . perhaps not diplomatic to mention the war but no mentions of nazis it seems !


He didn't have to mention "Nazis" when referring to WWII like "punishment beatings". He avoided that term but was clear what he was referring to.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 297865


 i like that . I's shows how enterprising we are !


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> https://www.quora.com/Which-country-was-the-most-brutal-towards-POWs-in-WWII
> 
> "So we can see that in general, the Western Allies treated their German prisoners adequately, as did the Germans in respect to the Western Allies".


Think it's quite telling both Boris and David Davis mentioned WWII on the same day. Papers like the Sun use "who won the war" mentality all the time to enhance confrontation feeling in the Brits, standard methodology. The sooner people realise that leaving the EU is not britain vs germany the better. Great camoflage for pushing nationalism though.

Something else to consider. May made a great point of pointing out the internationalisation of UK in the past. Does that include things like Opium wars in China? You know where opium was banned in both the UK and china due to the devastation it's use caused. We fought wars so british merchants could sell it in China. Plenty of similar examples of UK internationalisation around the world. Maybe we shouldn't be quite so proud of that record. We should be more proud of things such as our innovation and our scientists which allowed things like the industrial revolution and generally pushed other frontiers.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Think it's quite telling both Boris and David Davis mentioned WWII on the same day. .


Perhaps its a generation thing. Even though the war had been over for 20 years when we were kids in the 1960, it was still very fresh in the memories of our parents and grandparents and our school teachers and listened to their experiences of it . I still refer to WW 2 as the War and even though we hadn't been born we were still influenced by it and it was still part of out lives. 
I'm immensely proud of Britain and our Commonwealth and all of them who lived and fought and suffered in the war .
It was a tactless thing for Boris to say though and he's not the best person for the job. .


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Perhaps its a generation thing. Even though the war had been over for 20 years when we were kids in the 1960, it was still very fresh in the memories of our parents and grandparents and our school teachers and listened to their experiences of it . I still refer to WW 2 as the War and even though we hadn't been born we were still influenced by it and it was still part of out lives.
> I'm immensely proud of Britain and our Commonwealth and all of them who lived and fought and suffered in the war .
> It was a tactless thing for Boris to say though and he's not the best person for the job. .


And I'm proud of Europe coming together to form what is now the EU.
This has certainly contributed peace within the nations over the past 70 years along with Nato. It took the UK many years to become a member, vetoed by French President Charles De Gaulle previously.

Now all this with old wounds being re opened, where will this all lead to especially if Nato is disbanded with the way Trump is taking?


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong The EU still exists and a couple of mentions of the war is hardly opening old wounds.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Boris Fawlty.


----------



## KittenKong

I disagree. The whole far right plan is to dismantle the EU, Nigel Farage said it himself. 

Then there's Le Penn and others. If , heaven forbid, they gain power then exit the EU that's the end of the EU and Europe will return to pre WWII conditions..


----------



## kimthecat

@Kittonkong I sincerely hope the Eu is not dismantled but if the people are that discontented that they vote for extremes then maybe they need to be listened to.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> @Kittonkong I sincerely hope the Eu is not dismantled but if the people are that discontented that they vote for extremes then maybe they need to be listened to.


The thing is, though, are they really that discontented, or are they simply being made to _feel_ discontented by clever manipulation of powerful people with their own agenda?

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I can understand why in pre WW2 Germany people voted for radical change - hyper inflation, high unemployment, and a whole further set of economic conditions largely (but not exclusively) brought about by the draconian Treaty of Versaille in conjunction with the Depression that left your average German citizen in a far worse situation than the vast majority of UK citizens today. That Hitler won the election was largely down to the expansive rhetoric and sweeping generic 'make Germany great again' promises (with no detail) he excelled at, and the huge amount of highly public and mobile campaigning he did. He also made liberal use of scapegoating, blaming the establishment and various minority groups for Gernamy's woes. The more moderate parties, on the other hand, thought his emotive approach wouldn't appeal to the public as much as common sense and detailed policies would. They were, of course, wrong.

Now I see similar tactics being used in the UK, yet comparatively little to be genuinely concerned over. If we take immigration, for example, most say they don't want to block skilled immigrants (which we need!), just the low skilled ones. However, I don't expect the majority realise that many key industries (farming, hotels and hospitality etc. Basically any service type job that is poorly paid) rely on immigrant workers to run as cheaply as they do, so we can expect some noticeable price rises in those areas as employers will have to pay more to attract UK people to do the same work - if there are enough who are willing to take on such work, anyway.


----------



## noushka05

Well, I think this pretty much sums it up.


----------



## noushka05

Guess who they're setting up for the blame when it all goes **** up? lol


----------



## KittenKong

Yep I could see that coming.

It all starts with name-calling.......


----------



## Goblin

Jesthar said:


> Now I see similar tactics being used in the UK, yet comparatively little to be genuinely concerned over. If we take immigration, for example, most say they don't want to block skilled immigrants (which we need!), just the low skilled ones. However, I don't expect the majority realise that many key industries (farming, hotels and hospitality etc. Basically any service type job that is poorly paid) rely on immigrant workers to run as cheaply as they do, so we can expect some noticeable price rises in those areas as employers will have to pay more to attract UK people to do the same work - if there are enough who are willing to take on such work, anyway.


That's they key thing, popularism as it's known has risen from a bunch of elitists saying "we'll give you everything", "make X great again", "ignore experts" and normally taking target at a minority to blame.

About WWII comments mentioned earlier, daily fail has an article about a german concentration camp today. Heard they are "moderating" comments. What lessons were learned from WWII?



> We must build a kind of United States of Europe.. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important.. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.


Winston Churchill _September 19, 1946
_
EU isn't perfect, we could have worked within the system, not thrown the toys out of the pram due to lies of elite for their own political gain.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> The thing is, though, are they really that discontented, or are they simply being made to _feel_ discontented by clever manipulation of powerful people with their own agenda?


 I see your point and that happens of course . I was talking about European countries in general and since the banking crisis and the austerity measures etc perhaps people do have genuine reasons for discontentment .


----------



## KittenKong

They live in cloud cuckoo land to believe this.

No mention of Gibraltar either.

I despair, I really do.


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> perhaps people do have genuine reasons for discontentment .


Of course they do, we live in a plutocracy. I don't what part of Brexit is worse however, the acceptance and support of lies, the media influence on society, the support for nationalistic (not patriotic) feelings or simply how blindly people can be led by the phrase "power to the people" when the result is anything but.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Jesthar:

...
I can understand why., in pre WW2 Germany, people voted for radical change - 
hyper-inflation, high unemployment, & a ...further set of economic conditions largely (but not exclusively) brought about by the draconian Treaty of Versailles, coinciding with the Depression, that left your average German citizen in a far-worse situation than the vast majority of UK citizens, today.

That Hitler won the election was largely down to the *expansive rhetoric and sweeping generic  'make Germany great again' promises (with no detail) which he excelled at, & the huge amount of highly public and mobile campaigning he did.*
He also *made liberal use of scapegoating, blaming the establishment and various minority groups for Germany's [economic & social] woes.* .
* The more moderate political parties... thought his emotive approach wouldn't appeal to the public as much as common sense & detailed policies would. They were, of course, wrong.*

Now I see similar tactics being used in the UK.... take immigration, for example: most say they don't want to block skilled immigrants (which we need!), just the low skilled ones. 
However, I don't expect the majority realise that* many key industries (farming, hotels & hospitality, etc. Basically, any service job that's poorly-paid) rely on immigrant workers to run as cheaply as they do, so we can expect some noticeable price rises in those areas as employers will have to pay more to attract UK people to do the same work* - if there are enough who are willing to take on such work, anyway. 

/QUOTE
.
.
note the sections in *blue bold - *these were precisely the tactics used by the Trumpling to score points with his narrow-minded & often ignorant fandom, during the Prez campaign.
.
Similarly, i found it distressing when I lived in Va Beach that altho that city is largely dependent on cheap labor for their hotel / resort / tourist industry, they do not want their "help" to LIVE within the city; altho the service workers are poorly paid & have no benefits, they are spozed to live elsewhere & commute to Va Beach from cheaper nearby towns or cities - Chesapeake, Norfolk, etc.
.
More, Va Beach does not want to foot the bill for reliable public transit to_ MOVE_ their service workers from that 30 to 45-minute distant city, to their minimum-wage jobs in Va Beach; they should somehow dematerialize @ home, & rematerialize at work, without wasting time, effort, & city resources (i-e, tax monies) on the distance between them.
Therefore, altho Va Beach is by far the largest & most-sprawling of the 7 Cities, she kicks in the very least amount of money to pay for public transit over the square miles of city & suburb that separate the resort area at the beach from the far-distant inland "cheap rentals" where the service staff go, at the end of their 8 to 12 hour days - adding an average of 90-minutes travel to their working days.
And the help should pay for their own transit - not expect the city to subsidize it.
.
Va Beach has a simple motto: _"If U don't own a car, go away."_
Of course, trying to live on minimum wage whilst traveling for 3-hours each day via scantily scheduled public transit makes a worker's life that much harder, but that's not the City's problem, is it? ... nor apparently is it the hoteliers' problem, the many restaurants' problem, or the various entertainment venues' problem. *It's the individual worker's problem, so go away & solve it, wouldja?!, & let us go back to making money. :Shifty*
*.*
Donnie hasn't grasped this particular nettle yet, but he'll be forced to notice it when farmers cannot find enuf hands to pick crops, hotels can't find maids to change enuf beds, waitrons are lacking in dining rooms, janitors' posts are vacant, & similar low-entry jobs go begging when there are fewer immigrants to fill them.
.
.
.


----------



## Goblin

The nationalistic push is continuing... http://www.thecanary.co/2017/01/19/...rms-express-fabricated-whole-thing-exclusive/

This is post brexit britain.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, is anyone surprised? I'm not. Still, like The Sun their readers follow and obey them like sheep.

After Labour's kick in the teeth by saying they wouldn't block Brexit it's refreshing to see Tim Fallon from the Lib Dems continuing to oppose it. Been quite impressed with his leadership after the disastrous Nick Clegg.

They could well become the next UK opposition, it needs a party committed to the 48% and those pro EU but not allowed a vote.
























https://www.theguardian.com/politic...abours-jeremy-corbyn-of-giving-up-over-brexit


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> @Kittonkong I sincerely hope the Eu is not dismantled but if the people are that discontented that they vote for extremes then maybe they need to be listened to.


The thirties in Germany?
People wanted to make Germany great again?

Hard working, decent people. As Germans generally are.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> The thirties in Germany?
> People wanted to make Germany great again?
> 
> Hard working, decent people. As Germans generally are.


And now May believes she can rule the world. "Global Britain", what utter bulls**t!


----------



## Goblin

What does the Wall Street Journal say about May's negotiating position?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-multiple-paths-to-a-bad-brexit-deal-1484771260?mod=e2fb


----------



## cheekyscrip

And now America First will be great again. .

Isn't it funny when President of USA speaks Farage?
And promises to dismantle NATO reestablishing Kremlin as leading European power....

Thank you Brexit. Great. Just great.
Remind me...how special that relationship would be?


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> And now May believes she can rule the world. "Global Britain", what utter bulls**t!


"Global Britain". The latest empty slogan


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 297776


Britain & now the USA reduced to ridicule. Populism & nationalism are so dangerous.










The New York Times. This is how others see us now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/20/opinion/theresa-mays-global-britain-is-baloney.html?_r=0


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant! Absolutely spot on.

Well done NYT and De Welt!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> And now May believes she can rule the world. "Global Britain", what utter bulls**t!


I took that to mean that we now can have unfettered access to global trade.

Odd how different people interpret some words differently. I've noticed that a lot on here


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I took that to mean that we now can have unfettered access to global trade.
> 
> Odd how different people interpret some words differently. I've noticed that a lot on here


Yes, I think we know that. Trade with the globe with the exception of former EU colleagues. That'll be good for the carbon footprint wouldn't it, then of course Global warming and climate change no longer exists.....

May's ego is certainly global and the way she carries on you'd think she believes she can rule the world. She'll be cut down to size in no time.


----------



## rona

I think she's quite happy to do trade with the EU but she won't have our county suffer to do so. Quite sensible I think


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I took that to mean that we now can have unfettered access to global trade.


We had access to the world as part of the EU. Only difference is trade deals which we had advantages with when a member of the EU. People keep going on about "new" 50 trade deals. Please explain the exact advantages when compared with the trade deals negotiated through the EU and why it's worth losing access to the single market?

Oh we'll be more under WTO rules.. made by unelected bureaucrats unlike rules from the EU made democratically.Thought people didn't like unelected bureaucrats or is it only under an EU label even when when it's a lie anyway regarding the EU.



rona said:


> I think she's quite happy to do trade with the EU but she won't have our county suffer to do so. Quite sensible I think


Pro's and cons, people still haven't come up with the advantages to leaving.

May - Trump.. great calls to nationalistic country pride.. ignore the niggly details. Shout loud enough public will not care and we'll simply blame someone else.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I think she's quite happy to do trade with the EU but she won't have our county suffer to do so. Quite sensible I think


A sensible move IMHO would be to commit to staying in the single market. She was very wrong when she said staying in the single market is not leaving the EU. How does she explain Norway and Switzerland then? These countries are definitely NOT in the EU...

May's problem is her immigration stance she's had since first becoming home secretary. I get the impression she'll risk everything just for that.

Who the hell does she think she is believing the EU will succumb to her terms while expressing she no longer wishes to remain in it anyway.

And if Brexit will be so wonderful why didn't she use her speech to trigger Article 50 at the same time? Briefly putting myself in the mind of a Brexiteer I would be asking that question.

I hope as a result of her stance the EU tell her where to go. And good on them if they do.


----------



## KittenKong

This was not unexpected https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...exit-will-destroy-peace-deal-says-gerry-adams


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I think she's quite happy to do trade with the EU but she won't have our county suffer to do so. Quite sensible I think


@rona most trade in the world is done with neighbours. Even USA trades more with Canada and Mexico than anyone else.
About half of UK trade is with UK.
Because transport costs!!!!
New Zealand trades mostly milk!!! Then beef, sheep... But UK does not need milk from down under?
Australia wants a deal...but..







they want free movement! India,wants a deal but for working visas for 80k folks...
So TM takes UK out of EU and single market to control immigration for EU only to replace it with immigration from.nin EU?

And have costs of shipping around the world?

As to Trump and his deals they would be America only and America First.

Plus Gibraltar will be a part of great deal with Spain?

Falklands part of best possible deal with friendly dictatorship in Argentina?

I was afraid Brexit would destabilize situation in Europe and the world...Jenga blocks or domino effect...remember?

It is happening right now...
Brexit helped Trump to get in the driving seat.... What Putin's hackers alone would not be able to achieve they did thanks to Farage and those who endorsed him.

Trump is very dangerous for world peace. For peace in Europe and although EU was far from perfect the price of Brexit and risks it brought are far too high.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I took that to mean that we now can have unfettered access to global trade.
> 
> Odd how different people interpret some words differently. I've noticed that a lot on here


From the excellent article in the New York Times I referenced.

*Theresa May's 'Global Britain' Is Baloney*

So Theresa May, the British prime minister who was not elected to her post, wants to create something called "Global Britain." She thought about alternative branding - "Parochial Britain" - but was advised it was unsexy.

She wants to achieve this by taking Britain out of the European Union, out of a single market of a half-billion people and into a new "embrace" of the world - excluding, of course, Spaniards, the French, Germans, Italians, Swedes and their ilk.

The prime minister is so keen on the idea that she used the word "global" 17 times in her speech on Tuesday setting out her Brexit plans.

Madam, thou doth protest too much.

I wonder if May, who studied geography at Oxford University, has ever taken a stroll round London, that inward-looking city where you never hear a foreign tongue. After 43 years in what is now called the European Union, the British capital has become insufferably insular. Its cuisine lacks variety. Its financial institutions have no international heft. Its skyline speaks of stunted ambition. Its culture is provincial, its theater hidebound and its worldview small-minded.

No wonder May felt she had to take London global.

And Britain as a whole! For 43 years the country has been a member of an introverted, stifling little entity called the European Union that has just concluded a free trade deal with Canada, has dozens of multilateral and bilateral trade agreements, boasts the United States as its top trading partner, takes some 44 percent of British exports, and accounts for 22 percent of world economic output.

How could Britain possibly be global within this straitjacket?

No, it had to get out of Europe to go global (and make sure its citizens could no longer work in Europe)! The June 23 referendum, May insisted, was "the moment we chose to build a truly global Britain.

I know this is a political moment when black equals white, no means yes, two plus two equals five, and post-truth is the phrase du jour. Still, this was a Trump-size whopper from May. She had obviously been steeped in Orwell before her oration.

The vote for Brexit was in fact the moment Britain turned its back on the world, succumbing to pettiness, anti-immigrant bigotry, lying politicians, self-delusion and vapid promises of restored glory.

*"Global Britain" is a specious branding effort designed to mask an expensive mistake, opposed by 48 percent of voters.*

Now, a memory stirs. May at the Conservative Party Conference last October saying this: "But if you believe you're a citizen of the world, you're a citizen of nowhere. You don't understand what the very word 'citizenship' means

So much for May and her global baloney: She doesn't like people who move from country to country, who may feel allegiance to more than one, and who have concluded that the most useful form of citizenship these days is one dedicated not only to the well-being of a Berkshire parish, say, but to the planet.

*Global Britain without global citizens, please!*

*There was at least one honest sentence in her speech:* "Brexit must mean control of the number of people who come to Britain from Europe." That, you see, is what it was all about: too many Poles and Romanians doing jobs nobody else wants.

May rambled. She does not want the single market (because it entails free movement of E.U. citizens). But, oh, maybe she wants bits of it. Like for the export of cars or freedom to provide financial services across borders. May has already had to make promises to Nissan to stop the Japanese automaker from getting out of Sunderland. She's terrified financial institutions will quit the City en masse

*
Her comeuppance awaits in the form of Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, who knows global baloney when she sees it. You don't have your cake and eat it in negotiations with Merkel*.

I write as President-elect Donald Trump is about to become President Trump. Nobody really has any idea of what will happen after that. President Vladimir Putin says that Trump would never run after Russian "girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world."

Good to know that at least.

May seems to see Trump as her global ace in the hole, her counterweight to the European Union. She has been making nice to him. Her government has voiced extraordinary public criticism of Secretary of State John Kerry's speech on Israel-Palestine, and largely shunned a Middle East conference in Paris the Trump team opposed. In her speech, May pointedly remarked that Britain was not "at the back of the queue" for a trade deal with the United States, as President Obama warned, but at the front in the hour of Trump.

*Global Britain! Make America Great Again! Russia for Russians! As Orwell is said to have observed, "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."*



noushka05 said:


> Britain & now the USA reduced to ridicule. Populism & nationalism are so dangerous.
> 
> View attachment 297998
> 
> 
> The New York Times. This is how others see us now.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/20/opinion/theresa-mays-global-britain-is-baloney.html?_r=0


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> @rona most trade in the world is done with neighbours. Even USA trades more with Canada and Mexico than anyone else.
> About half of UK trade is with UK.
> Because transport costs!!!!
> New Zealand trades mostly milk!!! Then beef, sheep... But UK does not need milk from down under?
> Australia wants a deal...but..
> View attachment 298022
> they want free movement! India,wants a deal but for working visas for 80k folks...
> So TM takes UK out of EU and single market to control immigration for EU only to replace it with immigration from.nin EU?
> 
> And have costs of shipping around the world?.


This is getting absolutely ridiculous. They'll be preventing EU citizens from moving to the UK and vice versa, yet may develop free movement with the rest of the world in order to get a trade deal? Fine if you're wealthy and want to retire to Australia yet UK citizens will be prevented from retiring to, say Spain?

What a joke.

"Global Britain", a Britain open to the world except within the EU/EEA area?

The only Brexit good news is not to have Brexit at all.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> This is getting absolutely ridiculous. They'll be preventing EU citizens from moving to the UK and vice versa, yet may develop free movement with the rest of the world in order to get a trade deal? Fine if you're wealthy and want to retire to Australia yet UK citizens will be prevented from retiring to, say Spain?
> 
> What a joke.
> 
> "Global Britain", a Britain open to the world except within the EU/EEA area?
> 
> The only Brexit good news is not to have Brexit at all.


I think replacement of EU workers by non EU workers is totally pointless...
How many Islamic terrorists came from Poland?

How dangerous the nurses, carers, doctors, vets, veg pickets, builders are to national security?

Do you know that productivity in UK I the lowest in G7 , 35% lower than in Germany?

Maybe the problem is that UK wanted cheap workforce but then if those workers needed healthcare, education for kids and housing then it was a no no?
How ridiculous is that?
Employ robots!!!

Australian, Indian or Commonwealth workers will also need housing, health care, schools...

Bringing goods from another hemisphere may put prices a bit?
How much are you happy to pay for oranges from Costa Rica? How fresh would they be?

Or we follow Baldric and stick to our turnips. Very healthy.


----------



## Goblin

Couldn't make it up could you. People will remember http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-without-visa-reform/articleshow/56662919.cms

Then of course one of the main excuses for brexit was "immigrants".

Now we have : http://www.itv.com/news/2017-01-21/...-for-australians-if-it-wants-free-trade-deal/ Not complete opening but anyone notice a trend, trade deals = open.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I think as soon as costs of living in UK would soar there would be much fewer EU workers and students willing to come...
I love including students who are paying customers and do not take precious jobs but create them..into immigration!!!
Just to make up numbers...
Number of EU applications are at the lowest now...
Great...UK can start closing down unis and send their staff on benefits..
Universities that were the pride of Britain...

I am sure highly qualified scientists will find something somewhere else ..but as to all admin and auxiliary personnel?


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear, more uncertainty!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-sunderland-plant-competitiveness-post-Brexit
> 
> Oh dear, more uncertainty!
> View attachment 298088


More on that story. The wheels are already falling off the Nissan deal.


----------



## noushka05

This is what tax haven Britain will mean for us. https://www.ft.com/content/3501446a-de36-11e6-86ac-f253db7791c6


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Goblin

One reason the Scots are not happy:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/food-sector-faces-terrifying-tariffs-after-hard-brexit-1-4345486


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 298102
> View attachment 298103


He's not bias is he?

http://jondanzig.wixsite.com/journalist

He is currently running a grassroots Facebook campaign to keep Britain in the EU


----------



## stockwellcat.

So the public back Theresa May's Brexit plans.

*Public back Brexit plan but think EU will nix it.*
Britons think Theresa May's vision of Brexit would be good for the country and believe no deal is better than a bad one.

Full article here:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/public-back-brexit-plan-think-eu-will-nix-it/


----------



## Goblin

Didn't think you approved of opinion polls. Oh wait, it says what you want so that's okay. Ignore that it was only being only 1600 people. Does it state what you want though... look at the poll and it shows the majority of people think the UK will be worse off with Brexit but let's not get in the way of government propaganda. come on, even the "Sunderland echo" can poll double that amount of people.

So come on stockwellcat, what is May's vision *in detail *as so far she hasn't provided it. How are people supposed to give accurate opinion when they do not even have the information to base that opinion from? Her speech provided an impossible to achieve "overview" preferring to set things up so she can blame the EU when things fall through and it doesn't work. Simple question demonstrating lack of details: Northern Ireland/Ireland border... how is it suppose to stay open yet be closed to free movement and goods at the same time? Any trade deals will be likely have the requirement to close border simply to prevent 3rd parties from exploiting the trade deal through a back door.

As for the title, ask for the impossible and the other side will NIX it.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> He's not bias is he?
> 
> http://jondanzig.wixsite.com/journalist
> 
> He is currently running a grassroots Facebook campaign to keep Britain in the EU


I don't dispute that.
There's been plenty of pro leave links and posts here too!


----------



## stockwellcat.

So it's true....

This thread has become a place for remoaners to moan and when those that voted leave say anything on here the remoaners do everything to discredit what is being said.

I understand that not all of those that voted remain are moaning and most have accepted what is going to happen. To those in this group of remainers I apologise for my comment above, the comment was at those that can't let go or let this drop and still insist on being negative about everything.

TM has announced her plan. I agree with it. She wants the UK to get the best possible deal with the EU but if they don't want to play ball then hard Brexit with no deal. Makes sense but obviously not to those that want the UK to remain one foot in and one foot out of the EU like we have for the last 40 odd years giving the UK no hope of being able to strike any new trade deals of its own. Sorry but it ain't going to happen. The UK is leaving the EU one way or another.

Yes I am back. Refreshed and ready for anything.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I voted to remain which I still would have been the right thing to do, but then there are lot of people believed the lies of Boris and his cronies so they voted out.

To be honest I'll be glad when it's over and then we'll find out what really damage has been done one way or the other.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> This thread has become a place for remoaners to moan and when those that voted leave say anything on here the remoaners do everything to discredit what is being said.


Thats as facts on the leave side are not exactly in large supply. If what those voted to leave was based in facts, it couldn't be discredited.



> TM has announced her plan. I agree with it. She wants the UK to get the best possible deal with the EU but if they don't want to play ball then hard Brexit with no deal.


Yet still no details even when she want things which cannot go together in the real world. You cannot answer the Irish border question can you?



> The UK is leaving the EU one way or another.


Yes we get you want that. Still haven't been able to produce positive reasons to do so.



> Yes I am back. Refreshed and ready for anything.


Other than actually answering questions based in reality and using facts.


----------



## KittenKong

May's fond of her new catchphrase "Best Possible" isn't she?

It doesn't inspire much confidence.

By saying, "Best Possible", that's like admitting any deal will be inferior to one had the UK stayed in the EU!

And why should the EU play ball? The UK government decided on a hard Brexit, not the EU. The UK is no better nor worse than any other EU country so why should they be treated any differently?

If Brexit will be so wonderful why on earth didn't May trigger Article 50 following her speech? If I was a Brexiteer I would be asking that question.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May's statement on the Brexit plans only back this up:









I wonder if the Supreme Justices are going to take this statement into consideration when they deliberate on Tuesday?

Addressing the 11 justices at the end of a four-day hearing, Mr Eadie said of the vote, which was carried by a 372 majority: "It may not be legally binding but that does not mean it is not legally relevant, because Parliament has given specific approval.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/08/supreme-court-brexit-appeal-day-four-live/

Before you have a go goblin there have been enough news articles posted on here from you and two other remoaners that could form a book.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 298130
> 
> 
> May's fond of her new catchphrase "Best Possible" isn't she?
> 
> It doesn't inspire much confidence.
> 
> By saying, "Best Possible", that's like admitting any deal will be inferior to one had the UK stayed in the EU!
> 
> And why should the EU play ball? The UK government decided on a hard Brexit, not the EU. The UK is no better nor worse than any other EU country so why should they be treated any differently?
> 
> If Brexit will be so wonderful why on earth didn't May trigger Article 50 following her speech? If I was a Brexiteer I would be asking that question.


I'll answer some of you questions.
The EU are at risk as well as the UK and do have to play ball to an extent because the UK still is the financial hub of the world, so still need access to London (Passporting I think you call it). This has not changed since the leave vote.

Theresa May has not triggered article 50 yet because a certain millionaire called Gina Millar brought a court case against the Government. The Government has a bill ready to put in front of Parliament within hours of Tuesday's verdict about triggering article 50 if the verdict doesn't go the Governments way. It's a legal issue preventing the triggering of Article 50 at the moment.

Again this comment needs taking into consideration:
Addressing the 11 justices at the end of a four-day hearing, Mr Eadie said of the vote, which was carried by a 372 majority: *"It may not be legally binding but that does not mean it is not legally relevant, because Parliament has given specific approval.*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/08/supreme-court-brexit-appeal-day-four-live/


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Theresa May's statement on the Brexit plans only back this up:


??? How does it back up the fact that she is asking for the impossible? Procedure is shown for Article 50's 2 year negotiation period. All well and good. Article 50 covers leaving the EU itself, that includes how much the UK is going to owe the EU (60 billion has been quoted) to cover things like pensions etc. No idea how the EU comes to that figure but sure it will be negotiated. Also includes things like the return of EU buildings in the UK to the UK, even the wine cellar contents etc. Article 50 has nothing to do with any future trade deal. EU law actually makes the difference clear, withdrawal (Article 50) requires only agreement by a qualified majority of the council. Any trade agreement, by EU law, requires unanimity of the council, a majority in the European parliament and a ratification in national parliaments (as well as some regional parliaments such as Wallonia). Any of these have a veto on the trade agreement. Let's not forget trade agreements generally take 5-10 years to create even ones not involving the EU. May's pretending it will be done in 2 along with everything else which needs to be sorted?

So I have to ask.. what's the point of the diagram in relation to May's speech when she talks about trade etc?



> Addressing the 11 justices at the end of a four-day hearing, Mr Eadie said of the vote, which was carried by a 372 majority: "It may not be legally binding but that does not mean it is not legally relevant, because Parliament has given specific approval.
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/08/supreme-court-brexit-appeal-day-four-live/


Government lawyer James Eadie QC said.. Didn't you read the judgement from the previous attempt by the government to force this through by using exactly the same argument. Didn't you read the legal explanation why that is not the case legally? A vote to hold a non-binding referendum does not equate to permission to change people's basic civil rights.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> ??? How does it back up the fact that she is asking for the impossible? Procedure is shown for Article 50's 2 year negotiation period. That has nothing to do with any trade deal which is a completely different thing and not included in Article 50's parameters.
> 
> Government lawyer James Eadie QC said.. Didn't you read the judgement from the previous attempt by the government to force this through and the explanation why that is not the case legally? A vote to hold a non-binding referendum does not equate to permission to change people's basic civil rights.


I know this will wind you up but anyway I'll say it regardless: *We'll see. *
The Court case goblin isn't to stop Brexit by the way, the Government has already had the strongest indication that Parliament will back the triggering of Article 50 (372 majority).


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The Court case goblin isn't to stop Brexit by the way, the Government has already had the strongest indication that Parliament will back the triggering of Article 50 (372 majority).


The court case was never about stopping article 50. It's about retaining parliamentary democracy. Something all sides of the brexit debate should support. The idea of a government implementing policy without parliament is something nobody interested in democracy should condone. As for Article 50 going through, imagine it will. Have to wonder though why May was so keen to delay it by going through the court process. She could have accepted the previous court result and had the vote already.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> The court case was never about stopping article 50. It's about retaining parliamentary democracy. Something all sides of the brexit debate should support. The idea of a government implementing policy without parliament is something nobody interested in democracy should condone. As for Article 50 going through, imagine it will. *Have to wonder though why May was so keen to delay it by going through the court process. She could have accepted the previous court result and had the vote already*.


The address is 10 Downing Street, London SW1A go and ask her yourself and let her know about all your paranoia as well about the UK leaving the EU. She might reply. Then again she will more than likely not.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The address is 10 Downing Street, London SW1A go and ask her yourself and let her know about all your paranoia as well about the UK leaving the EU. She might reply. Then again she will more than likely not.


Seems all she is capable of is spin, not answers.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Seems all she is capable of is spin, not answers.











You have the cheek. You have put enough spin on here yourself.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> You have the cheek. You have put enough spin on here yourself.


Hilarious, you don't like facts you mean. That's why you cannot answer questions when asked. "We'll make Britain great" is spin without details on how which are based on reality.

So please enlighten everyone and detail where I've use spin.


----------



## rona

My goodness, some of you are rather tortured souls. I genuinely feel sorry for you


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Didums.. don't like facts you mean. That's why you cannot answer questions when asked.


Well shall we look at the facts presented so far.

So called experts claimed that the world would come to an end because of the leave vote (we all know this didn't happen).
So called experts said the UK economy would collapse because of the leave vote (the opposite happened, the economy grew).
So called experts said the leave vote would never happen (it did).
So called experts said a leave vote would trigger world war three (this has not happened).
So called experts said the horse men of the apocalypse would decend on the UK and fire rain down from the sky because of the leave vote (this didn't happen).
Do you see why I have problems believing your so called experts because the opposite from what they said would happen has happened? The so called experts based there predictions in the event of a leave vote only.

I choose not to get into silly arguements with you that's way I am refusing to answer you silly questions. Plus if you go through all 198 pages (3941 posts) of this thread your questions have probably already been answered and you are going around in circles for no reason.

So diddums back at you goblin, noushka05 and kittenkong.


----------



## KittenKong

Paranoia you call it? Really? Try saying that to the EU citizens working here who could still be asked to leave, likewise with UK citizens across the EU.

That's not being paranoid, that's being generally worried. And as an EU citizen soon to lose my rights as one against my wishes yes I'm worried too.

I've followed both this and, more recently the Sabre Brexit threads with very much the same conclusion.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36226&start=3800

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37055

No one, however strongly pro Brexit they are cannot think of any true advantages.

The simple fact is, there isn't any.

The referendum and the subsiquent narrow leave victory is the worst decision undertaken by a government since the Poll Tax. At least that was abolished, but Brexit is irreversible.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 298136
> 
> 
> Paranoia you call it? Really? Try saying that to the EU citizens working here who could still be asked to leave, likewise with UK citizens across the EU.
> 
> That's not being paranoid, that's being generally worried. And as an EU citizen soon to lose my rights as one against my wishes yes I'm worried too.
> 
> I've followed both this and, more recently the Sabre Brexit threads with very much the same conclusion.
> 
> No one, however strongly pro Brexit they are cannot think of any true advantages.
> 
> The simple fact is, there isn't any.


Jeezus you have no doubt been told over and over again a simple fact will be the UK can strike its own trade deals without the approval of 27 other countries.

The UK will be independent.
The UK has been independent well before the EC existed.
Leaving the EU does not mean you can't travel to Europe.
The UK won't lose its national identity which many European countries have being members of the EU.
The UK was never really fully in the EU to start with, it has always had one foot in and one foot out of the EU for the last 40 odd years.
There are plenty more reasons.

But diddums we are leaving the EU.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Well shall we look at the facts presented so far.
> 
> So called experts claimed that the world would come to an end because of the leave vote (we all know this didn't happen).
> So called experts said the UK economy would collapse because of the leave vote (the opposite happened, the economy grew).
> So called experts said the leave vote would never happen (it did).
> So called experts said a leave vote would trigger world war three (this has not happened).
> So called experts said the horse men of the apocalypse would decend on the UK and fire rain down from the sky because of the leave vote (this didn't happen).
> Do you see why I have problems believing your so called experts because the opposite from what they said would happen has happened. The so called experts based there predictions in the event of a leave vote only.
> 
> I choose not to get into silly arguements with you that's way I am refusing to answer you silly questions.


Ah experts said argument again. The remain campaign took the worse case predictions. I've acknowledged that in case you forget. I also notice that we haven't left yet although the closer we come the more prices rise, we have economic growth which is great along with rising debt, jobs are being lost or moved abroad. Research has been hit. Foreign student numbers dropping... All without negotiations even starting. Now how has Brexit directly benefited joe bloggs in the street in that time.

The media such as the Daily Fail and the Sun started that WWIII line and who knows, it still might with USA president talking down NATO and Russia flexing it's muscles. Remain campaign said leaving could destabilise things, which it certainly has done.

Now what is actually true about the leave campaign? Take back control, we had it. Control immigration, what by opening up visa's along with trade deals? Stop being ruled by Unelected bureaucrats by following WTO rules rather than rules created by elected democratic bodies. Or maybe you mean by grovelling up to the States, a country who's president stated little things along the line of "Any trade deal will be based on the principle of American advantage".

Still waiting for advantages. Still not getting them.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Jeezus you have no doubt been told over and over again a simple fact will be the UK can strike its own trade deals without the approval of 27 other countries.
> 
> The UK will be independent.
> The UK has been independent well before the EC existed.
> Leaving the EU does not mean you can't travel to Europe.
> The UK won't lose its national identity which many European countries have being members of the EU.
> The UK was never really fully in the EU to start with, it has always had one foot in and one foot out of the EU for the last 40 odd years.
> There are plenty more reasons.
> 
> But diddums we are leaving the EU.



Independent - Thought we wanted to be global. Can't be both. Old times used to be called empire. Now it's through treaties, trade deals etc. Oh look leave the EU to form another block of trade deals which will include restrictions.
Can travel to europe, doesn't give the same opportunities. We can travel most of the world.

Which country has lost it's national identity, I don't know of any. Greeks are proud to be Greek, French proud to be French. Just as the Welsh are proud to be welsh. Scots proud to be Scottish.
Last point is interesting.. managed to have a foot in and influence things, taking bits out we wanted and ignore others. Gain the avantages. So we decide to throw it all away for no adavantage.
Please explain the logic.. throw out trade deals with 80+ countries to make new deals from a poorer position as far as negotiations go with potentially 50.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Independent - Thought we wanted to be global. Can't be both. Old times used to be called empire. Now it's through treaties, trade deals etc. Oh look leave the EU to form another block of trade deals which will include restrictions.
> Can travel to europe, doesn't give the same opportunities. We can travel most of the world.
> 
> Which country has lost it's national identity, I don't know of any. Greeks are proud to be Greek, French proud to be French. Just as the Welsh are proud to be welsh. Scots proud to be Scottish.
> Last point is interesting.. managed to have a foot in and influence things, taking bits out we wanted and ignore others. Gain the avantages. So we decide to throw it all away for no adavantage.
> Please explain the logic.. throw out trade deals with 80+ countries to make new deals from a poorer position as far as negotiations go with potentially 50.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Jeezus you have no doubt been told over and over again a simple fact will be the UK can strike its own trade deals without the approval of 27 other countries.


Called democracy something the leave campaign says doesn't exit in the EU. Oops
Now you've admitted that though I thought Germany was dictating things in the EU (well according to leave campaigners) which is why the UK has a strong negotiating position due to their car industry needing to import to the UK. If that's not the case, what does the UK actually have to offer in trade negotiations to satisfy all 27 countries?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> diddums


The quality of discussion from the leave campaigners when asked for reasoning. Fair dinkum, at least you are prepared to stand up and say why even if you cannot explain why it's a good thing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yes, the quality of discussion from the leave campaigners when asked for more than a repetition the bullet points such as why they are a good thing.


You can always ask the Queen for the answers as she backed the referendum and would have voted leave if she was allowed to vote.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Yes, the quality of discussion from the leave campaigners when asked for more than a repetition the bullet points such as why they are a good thing.


Diddums Britain we will have thanks to diddums who voted Leave because they know diddums...


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> You can always ask the Queen for the answers as she backed the referendum and would have voted leave if she was allowed to vote.


thought a British citizen she can vote if choses?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> You can always ask the Queen for the answers as she backed the referendum and would have voted leave if she was allowed to vote.


According to who.. oh that's right, friend of a friend said to media supporting the leave campaign. Instead, I'll ask you as you are here.


----------



## KittenKong

And Trump will get his hands on the UK for US gain. America First, remember?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> And Trump will get his hands on the UK for US gain. America First, remember?


Yep the US missile defense system will begin in UK waters and stretch as far as the otherside of America.   lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> thought a British citizen she can vote if choses?


No she isn't allowed to vote. The Queen has to remain strictly neutral.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36321125
The Queen doesn't vote. She "has to remain strictly neutral with respect to political matters" and is "unable to vote or stand for election", according to the Buckingham Palace website.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Please explain the logic.. throw out trade deals with 80+ countries to make new deals from a poorer position as far as negotiations go with potentially 50.


Hate to correct you as I know you will argue the toss. The UK won't be throwing away 80 countries trade by leaving the EU because we will still be trading with the EU when the UK leaves the EU so will still benefit trading with 80 countries. This won't change regardless of reaching a free trade deal or not. The World Trade Organisation made this point clear not so long ago. The UK will continue trading with the EU regardless of the outcome of the Brexit negotiations and trade will not be affected (The head of the WTO said this). A post Brexit free trade deal is favourable with the EU, take into consideration alot of the current 80 countries who have free trade deals outside of Europe with the EU and don't abide to the four freedoms of movement like South America, Central America, Parts of South Africa, parts of Asia etc, etc. North America trades with the EU under WTO rules (Washington, California, etc, etc) and so do Canada at the moment. Then we have Australia, New Zealand, India etc trading with the EU under WTO rules, the UK want free trade deals with these countries and are being favoured over the EU on potential free trade deals.

It's ok when it suits the EU to have free trade deals with countries like Columbia etc, so why can't the UK have free trade deals when we leave the EU?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Independent - Thought we wanted to be global. Can't be both


Of course we can


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Hate to correct you as I know you will argue the toss. The UK won't be throwing away 80 countries trade by leaving the EU because we will still be trading with the EU when the UK leaves the EU so will still benefit trading with 80 countries.


I was talking about trade deals, not trade. UK can and always has been able to trade with whoever it wants (skipping countries under sanction restrictions) so your comment doesn't make sense. I never stated we couldn't trade but we lose access to trade agreements made with the EU. You cannot trade with another country to piggyback on their trade agreements so we cannot trade to say to Canada through the EU's trade agreement once we leave. It's not allowed which means more red tape is needed when it comes to customs. EU has over 60 trade agreements in place which we will be leaving along with the EU. In place we will have to create our own separate trade agreements having a far weaker negotiating position than as part of the EU.



rona said:


> Of course we can


When you create trade deals you lose independency. Trade deals are not simply tarriffs. They're also rules and regulations you agree to abide to to trade with one another. This can also include things like environment standards, visa requirements etc (see india and australia demands). Now instead of abiding by one set of these rules, common throughout the EU we are going to potentially have to abide by a multitude of different rules catering to all trade agreements we've agreed to. Oh we could simply avoid being restricted and do everything according to WTO rules but then we have no control over those rules, again a loss of independence.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> we will have to create our own separate trade agreements having a far weaker negotiating position than as part of the EU.


That is not necessarily true that we will be weaker or have a weaker negotiating hand. Any trade deal would have to benefit the UK as well as benefit the country the UK is negotiating with. You really think the Government of the UK and Parliament are stupid to just sign any trade deal that comes the UKs way without scrutinising it thoroughly and look at what the UK can get from said trade deals as well?

Come off it this is just remainers negative spin on the UK Brexiting and trying to make the UK look stupid in front of the world whilst it seeks out new trading partners post Brexit. This is back firing as well as countries have made it clear they are willing to strike free trade deals with the UK Post Brexit including Gambia (Under its new President), New Zealand, Australia, America and India. It does not mean the UK have to strike these deals if it has to give up restrictions on movement of people or other changes not agreed to, the deal can be rejected by the UK you know.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Can anyone help me understand why the EU doesn't advocate a total ban on elephant ivory trading.  What exactly does "sustainably managing their elephant populations" mean?

*African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total ban on ivory trade*


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> That is not necessarily true that we will be weaker or have a weaker negotiating hand.


It's a market game. Market of 680 million vs 65 million. Yep, weaker negotiation position. Simple facts.



> You really think the Government of the UK and Parliament are stupid to just sign any trade deal that comes the UKs way without scrutinising it thoroughly and look at what the UK can get from said trade deals as well?


Well need I say the UK government agreed to principle of TTIP even when parts of EU were against it and blocking it. Apparantly you also have the issue of most trade deals taking 10ish years.. yet somehow the UK is going to manage everything in 2 or so. Will the government be desparate to claim making a trade deal.. yes. So yes there is a good chance of poor trade deals. You also forget, the government stupid enough to push through article 50 and try to leave the EU for purely political reasons, not because they believe in what they are doing.



> Come off it this is just remainers negative spin on the UK Brexiting and trying to make the UK look stupid in front of the world whilst it seeks out new trading partners post Brexit.


No it's looking at what trade deals are and how they are negotiated. This from people who have been and are responsible for those negotiations.



> This is back firing as well as countries have made it clear they are willing to strike free trade deals with the UK Post Brexit including Gambia (Under its new President), New Zealand, Australia, America and India. It does not mean the UK have to strike these deals if it has to give up restrictions on movement of people the deal can be rejected.


How is it back firing? we have 50 potential trade deals in the offing having dropped 60 odd plus the rest of the EU. Of those 50, apparantly we'll drop any we don't like how many will we actually get?


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> Can anyone help me understand why the EU doesn't advocate a total ban on elephant ivory trading.  What exactly does "sustainably managing their elephant populations" mean?


No idea, this is the EU statement from a while ago: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019/vella/blog/international-ivory-trade-ban-here-stay_en

Apparantly the World Wildlife Fund also agree with the decision of the EU. I'm all for a complete ivory ban as any "exception" can be exploited by the unscrupulous. I'm no expert though.

Not sure what it has to do with this topic though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> It's a market game. *Market of 680 million vs 65 million*. Yep, weaker negotiation position. Simple facts.


Has the world got bigger?
There are only 189 to 194 countries (depending on what sources you wish to believe) in the world so only 189 to 194 market places.
http://www.worldatlas.com/nations.htm
So your facts are wrong in this statement market of 680 million vs 65 million.


----------



## KittenKong

The UK did this themselves without the help of remainers. It looks stupid to other countries with its backwards view and dreams of reestablishing the old British Empire. In the same sense it would be like Germany wishing their "glory days" of the Third Reich to be re-established if they left the EU....









That's a bit optimistic seeing May said herself she would walk away from negotiations if she doesn't get her own way.

She won't as I think we well know as the EU insists on no cherry-picking, and quite rightly too.

And if you think relaxing immigration rules for, example Australia would work both ways I bet it wouldn't.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 298185
> 
> 
> The UK did this themselves without the help of remainers. It looks stupid to other countries with its backwards view and dreams of reestablishing the old British Empire....
> View attachment 298186
> 
> 
> That's a bit optimistic seeing May said herself she would walk away from negotiations if she doesn't get her own way.
> 
> She won't as I think we well know as the EU insists on no cherry-picking, and quite rightly too.


Outward looking not backward looking as remainers are now saying. ^^^^

True the EU said no cherry picking so that means we are leaving the EU as in leaving. Funnily the German finance minister said today the best deal for the UK is a Switzerland type Deal. This is the UK not Switzerland. Try again.

*Germany's finance minister just said what Brexit deal he thinks Theresa May should go for*
Wolfgang Schäuble thinks Britain should go for a Switzerland-style deal.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-latest-eu-germany-wolfgang-schaeuble-finance-minister-hard-brexit-immigration-switzerland-a7540506.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Has the world got bigger?


Really, EU has 740 million odd people (took 60 odd million out). UK 65 odd million. We were talking about difference between EU and UK negotiation positions for a single trade negotiation. So why do you say the UK have an equal or stronger negotiating position than the EU? Don't know why you started about number of nations.



KittenKong said:


> She won't as I think we well know as the EU insists on no cherry-picking, and quite rightly too.


It does mean she has her scapegoat ready rather than take responsibility herself. After the EU denying her impossible request "out of spite".. push comes to shove I'm sure Boris would be a sacrificial pawn for her.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> My goodness, some of you are rather tortured souls. I genuinely feel sorry for you


So you think because not everyone shares your enthusiasm for Brexit they're tortured souls?

I think you need to save your sympathy for the poor souls with the delusional belief Brexit will solve all problems, the NHS gets its promised £350m and the industries of old are re-established as examples.....


----------



## Goblin

Swiss deal has 120 separate treaties with free movement included. Deal breaker for May. Then again, what is best for the UK isn't necessarily what the UK wants.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Really, EU has 740 million odd people (took 60 odd million out). UK 65 odd million. We were talking about difference between EU and UK negotiation positions for a single trade negotiation. So why do you say the UK have an equal or stronger negotiating position than the EU? Don't know why you started about number of nations.
> 
> It does mean she has her scapegoat ready rather than take responsibility herself. After the EU denying her impossible request "out of spite".. push comes to shove I'm sure Boris would be a sacrificial pawn for her.


So you're telling me the EU has 680 million trade negotiators? It's no wonder they can't strike deals with this amount of negotiators and 27 countries after the UK leaves and 38 districts in Brussels to get approval from  lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Swiss deal has 120 separate treaties with free movement included. Deal breaker for May. Then again, what is best for the UK isn't necessarily what the UK wants.


The Government has already said no to Swiss deals and Norway deals as it would mean the UK is not actually leaving the EU and would not be able to strike any trade deals of its own. Leave means leave.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> So you're telling me the EU has 680 million trade negotiators? It's no wonder they can't strike deals with this amount of negotiators and 27 countries after the UK leaves and 38 districts in Brussels to get approval from  lol


When you are prepared to actually read things properly I'll respond.



stockwellcat said:


> The Government has already said no to Swiss deals and Norway deals as it would mean the UK is not actually leaving the EU and would not be able to strike any trade deals of its own. Leave means leave.


And German minister says leaving is not it's the best for the UK. No shock there.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> And if you think relaxing immigration rules for, example Australia would work both ways I bet it wouldn't.....


The UK has not agreed to relaxing immigration rules for Australia or India or any other country after Brexit. This is where negotiations step in which the UK can't do yet.


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat said:


> The UK has not agreed to relaxing immigration rules for Australia or India or any other country after Brexit. This is where negotiations step in which the UK can't do yet.


Oh I did read what you put but if you are talking about population this has nothing to do with having strong or weak negotiating hand. You can be a small country and have a very strong negotiating hand.

Sorry if you feel that the UK have betrayed you by voting leave but hey don't you think the British people have just had enough of being in the EU or didn't want to be in the EU in the first place.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> And German minister says leaving is not it's the best for the UK. No shock there.


Oh but it is in the UK's best interests to leave the EU. How dare they tell the UK who we can and can't trade with, and they do as the EU negotiate all the trade deals. The UK can stand on its own two feet you know and negotiate it's own trade deals instead of being treated like children by the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> It does mean she has her scapegoat ready rather than take responsibility herself. After the EU denying her impossible request "out of spite".. push comes to shove I'm sure Boris would be a sacrificial pawn for her.


Absolutely right. I hope the EU do give her a hard time and refuse to give in to May's demands. Negotiate by all means within the EU but not when they're so big headed they believe they're too superior to stay in the block.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely right. I hope the EU do give her a hard time and refuse to give in to May's demands.


Yaay! Because that would be great for the UK wouldn't it?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Oh but it is in the UK's best interests to leave the EU. How dare they tell the UK who we can and can't trade with, and they do as the EU negotiate all the trade deals. The UK can stand on its own two feet you know and negotiate it's own trade deals instead of being treated like children by the EU.


Ah, so actually using their negotiating power, far superior than the UK on it's own and having everyone involved and who it affects agree with the terms is preventing trade? No it's not, we trade with loads of people outside of trade deals. In fact the government is pushing the idea that if we don't get trade deals in a "sensible time frame" we'll simply use WTO rules. Obviously not that bad then. However the fact everyone is using the same rules in the EU means it's a win win for all member and all those who trade with us as once it enters the EU, goods are valid throughout. So you are advocated losing the trade advantages and deals we already have as part of the EU just to create up to 50 potentially differing sets of rules we have to follow and adhere as this is going to be better? Why so we can shout out "we did it our way" even when it's inferior?


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Can anyone help me understand why the EU doesn't advocate a total ban on elephant ivory trading.  What exactly does "sustainably managing their elephant populations" mean?
> 
> *African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total ban on ivory trade*


Your article is our of date. The EU banned it in November last year. http://soco.space/uv0D4a

Shamefully, the UK hasn't brought in its own domestic ban. "Nation of animal lovers"? What a joke that title is these days. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...isks-extinction-of-elephants?CMP=share_btn_tw
*
Tories' failure to halt ivory trade 'risks extinction of elephants'

*














The UK is putting elephants at risk of extinction through its broken promises on the ivory trade, according to campaigners. Before the last election, the Conservative party pledged to shut down the UK's domestic ivory market: at the time 30,000 elephants a year were being slaughtered for their tusks. But no action has been taken.

While bans on the international trade in ivory exist, a failure to observe similar measures at a national level is being exploited by criminal gangs who smuggle ivory into the UK, where it can be passed off as antique. Now, in the run-up to a major conference, more than 1.6 million people have signed a petition on the Avaaz activist website calling for the world's domestic ivory markets to be closed down for good.

"The government's broken promises to ban ivory sales in Britain are being paid for in the blood of African elephants," said Avaaz campaign director Bert Wander. "As one of the world's most vocal advocates against the illegal wildlife trade, the UK must now practise what it preaches. Otherwise, China and other ivory hotspots will see no reason to put in place the permanent ban on ivory we need to stop elephants being wiped from the face of the Earth."


----------



## KittenKong

It would be bl**dy ironic if May did agree to this with her anti immigration stance. For this reason alone she wants the UK to leave the EU single market.

This could well prove fatal to her premiership either way as bigots won't welcome immigration increasing seeing they voted leave to "send them home". Likewise to refuse a trade deal could have severe consequences for the economy.

Then, if such deals are rejected where does that leave the UK? Absolutely on its own

Poor Little Britain.


----------



## KittenKong

While we await our flight to a country proud of its EU membership, making the most of our limited time left as proud EU citizens, here's some UK news

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ncerns-top-worry-list-for-banks-a7540936.html


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## Goblin

So the latest: Easier for movement of workers between US-UK in any potential trade deal.


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> So the latest: Easier for movement of workers between US-UK in any potential trade deal.


So that's India, Australia & now the US telling the U.K that if it wants trade deals it must relax immigration rules. The irony lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

Quote 1:
*Europe will pay unless the Brexit deal is a fair one*

A sudden departure could end up permanently damaging the EU

Quote 2:
Both the UK and the EU can ill-afford a Brexit without agreement. I disagree with the consensus view among European politicians and economists that a sudden Brexit would be a lot worse for the UK than for the EU. This is a dangerous misconception, which could do real damage if it were to persist. Brexit without a deal will, of course, hurt Britain. While I strongly disagreed with most of the gloomy forecasts of what would happen after the Brexit vote, there can be no doubt that a sudden exit would produce large frictional costs.

But it could also end up permanently damaging the EU. Just consider the following three effects of a sudden Brexit. First, the eurozone remains dependent on the City of London for financial services and especially on settlement and clearing, the plumbing of the financial system. Mark Carney, governor of the Bank of England, who is not a Brexit cheerleader, said recently there was a bigger risk of a financial crisis in the EU than in the UK. The eurozone is unfortunate in that it allowed its main financial centre to be outside its borders. There is a clear potential for blackmail here.

Second, it is trivially true that Britain has a smaller weight in eurozone trade than the eurozone has in UK trade. This is because the eurozone is bigger. But do not underestimate that manufacturing supply chains work in both directions. A sudden break could disrupt manufacturing production everywhere. Remember that a single bank, Lehman Brothers, was able to blow up the global financial system in 2008. Dynamic effects are harder to calculate than the static ones but they can be much bigger.

Third, the UK is a member of the UN Security Council, the Group of 20 advanced industrial nations, and the Group of Seven. If EU countries want to fight tax avoidance by multinational companies, manage globalisation in a fairer way, reduce greenhouse gas emissions or come up with policies to combat terrorism, they will need the UK.

Quoted from Financial Times: http://www.ft.com/content/69a92106-df03-11e6-9d7c-be108f1c1dce?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## stockwellcat.

Remoaners this is why Brexit is the best thing for the UK. This reporter explains things very well*:*

*Stop complaining about Brexit - the economic benefits will be huge*

After Brexit the government will have the mandate and resources to reduce the cost of living and escape the grip of the multinationals

Now the prime minister has set out her agenda for Britain leaving the European Union, it provides an opportunity to turn our minds to what it will take to generate jobs, raise living standards and make Britain an even more prosperous and dynamic economy. In short, to make the UK the best place in which to do business.

While there has been much hand-wringing and angst about the upcoming negotiations, they pale into insignificance beside the manifest economic benefits that will flow from Brexit - if the government does the right thing. To this end, the government should now plan to ensure the country can take full advantage as soon after Brexit day as possible.

We should aim to remove tariffs, either unilaterally or through free trade negotiations, thus reducing the cost of food by up to 40%, and the cost of clothing and footwear by up to 20%. With a reduction in other input tariffs, this would be an enormous boost for those "just about managing". It will free up consumer spending, helping inflation and the economy at large. We should compensate business for any tariffs erected through the tax regime, at a cost of less than half of our EU net contribution, and we should have signature-ready trade deals and a deregulation programme prepared for Brexit day. This is work that must start now.

All the benefits of Brexit are entirely independent from the single market and the customs union, except in so far as membership of these prevents us from crystallising them. There is also a potential and massively important fringe benefit of Brexit, in that the government will now have to do the things that George Osborne failed to deliver and which have been resisted by the City-dominated Treasury for so long.

We need to rebalance the economy, and from this imperative government no longer has a hiding place. Our new freedom and EU contribution monies mean the government, at last, has the mandate and the resources to support our small and medium-sized exporters, and not be transfixed by the often protectionist multinationals. We must invest in universities and research and development and actually build infrastructure, not just talk about it. Seek the lowest-cost sources of energy rather than burdening consumers with massive bills. Provide non-equity loan capital and finance for entrepreneurs, growing firms and the tech sector, even if it means the City turning a buck less.

Immigration must be cut, but not at the expense of talent and jobs. Bone fide university students should be assessed for immigration at the point of graduation, not entry - after all, education is a service sector "export" as much as selling Burberry handbags, and creates a network around the world and a pool of talent for business. We want the brightest and the best in this country, alongside investment in the development and training of our young people to ensure they are as employable as possible. It is shameful that we have nearly 600,000 unemployed under-25s.

And all this is quite apart from the political and constitutional imperative for a clean break: freedom to make our own laws subject to our own courts and with control of our own borders - the very things that define a nation state and for the preservation of which our forebears paid a high price in blood and treasure.

There are important things that the exit negotiations need to resolve: visas, residency, open skies. But the really important things are not EU trade arrangements - they would be nice to have but are not essential. The real benefits of Brexit will be a considerable chunk of GDP - and that's without including the trade deals we will do with the rest of the world. Additionally, the rebalancing of the economy and making Britain the best place in which to do business will produce a boom in economic growth, investment and trade. By contrast, the cost of not having the trade arrangements with the EU - having tariffs imposed - are minor. Less than half our net contribution.

And all this is quite apart from the political and constitutional imperative for a clean break: freedom to make our own laws subject to our own courts and with control of our own borders - the very things that define a nation state and for the preservation of which our forebears paid a high price in blood and treasure.

Certainly we should not spend too much time on fruitless negotiations, we should instead be devoting more energy to looking forward, preparing for our freedom and the opportunity to be a vibrant, free-trading, enterprise nation.

http://theguardian.com/commentisfre...ing-multinationals?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Your article is our of date. The EU banned it in November last year. http://soco.space/uv0D4a
> 
> Shamefully, the UK hasn't brought in its own domestic ban. "Nation of animal lovers"? What a joke that title is these days. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...isks-extinction-of-elephants?CMP=share_btn_tw
> *
> Tories' failure to halt ivory trade 'risks extinction of elephants'
> 
> *
> 
> View attachment 298195
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The UK is putting elephants at risk of extinction through its broken promises on the ivory trade, according to campaigners. Before the last election, the Conservative party pledged to shut down the UK's domestic ivory market: at the time 30,000 elephants a year were being slaughtered for their tusks. But no action has been taken.
> 
> While bans on the international trade in ivory exist, a failure to observe similar measures at a national level is being exploited by criminal gangs who smuggle ivory into the UK, where it can be passed off as antique. Now, in the run-up to a major conference, more than 1.6 million people have signed a petition on the Avaaz activist website calling for the world's domestic ivory markets to be closed down for good.
> 
> "The government's broken promises to ban ivory sales in Britain are being paid for in the blood of African elephants," said Avaaz campaign director Bert Wander. "As one of the world's most vocal advocates against the illegal wildlife trade, the UK must now practise what it preaches. Otherwise, China and other ivory hotspots will see no reason to put in place the permanent ban on ivory we need to stop elephants being wiped from the face of the Earth."


Should really have started this in a seperate thread but this does make interesting reading. We really do need to tighten up our laws - hopefully pressure can be put on Leadsom to do so, (although we do actually have some of the strictest laws on ivory trading within the EU.) Prince William was very instrumental in persuading China to implement a total ban so hopefully he will be able to do so for us.

*In Fighting Illegal Ivory, EU Lags Behind*
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ean-union-china-hong-kong-elephants-poaching/
"Unlike Belgium, some EU nations-the Czech Republic, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Sweden, and the * U.K*.-have stopped issuing ivory export certificates and have called on Brussels to make this an EU-wide policy."

"The fact that some member states are stronger and more committed to the international law as individual nations makes a mockery of the EU," says Stella Reynolds, an international lawyer based in France. According to Reynolds, the European Union was created "to target global industry to ensure future peace and an absence of conflict. So it's incredible," she says, "that the EU is hiding from its responsibility in this modern-day global ivory conflict."


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Remoaners this is why Brexit is the best thing for the UK. This reporter explains things very well*:*


*You really need me to pick this apart? Let's use simple logic.*

Let's start by prime minister set out her unrealistic agenda as bullet points which are not achievable in the timescale she has stated, ignoring simple fact that she is merging multiple negotiations into one which would be against the EU constitution. She is set to fail and will simply blame the EU. Let's skip over the problems of what May actually said as that doesn't help the cause...

Oh wait May has a apparantly has a mandate to ignore over half the population... A non-binding referendum where people were promised we wouldn't be leaving the single market. Okay... author obviously is looking at facts and being impartial.

Oh look no tariffs, that mean we get flooded with goods when we are already a net importer. Cheap good imported made with cheap labour which UK businesses cannot match. Okay, sounds like a great idea. Remember, WTO rules means we cannot be protectionist for our own businesses.

We are now more dependent on the often "protectionist multinationals" unless the government stand up to them, which experience has shown they will not. Seek the lowest cost sources, maybe financially but at what environment cost? Brexit is great news to those who are rich. It truly is rich get richer, poor get shafted. Yes, reduce restrictions on environment, reduce workers rights etc and it means more money for multinational company directors and shareholders.

We want the brightest and best but they've decided to stay away. Who wants to come to a xenophobic inward looking nation when other options are available? Who wouldn't prefer to go to where multinational research is the norm?

Ah, freedom to make our own laws etc etc when has been shown we can already make our own laws. Own courts, well until we have trade agreements with an arbitration method which is unlikely to be our own courts. Oh wait, it does mean the government cannot be held accountable when it comes to human rights, workers rights etc. That's what you mean, we can throw those out the window and make things, as Ian Duncan Smith said more "flexible".

Notice how they appeal to this "soveriegnty" several times.. in the article. Oh wait why is that... oh look the auithor was suspended from the British Chamber of Commerce for breaching their neutrality conditions regarding Brexit.

In short yes, this is one opinon, an opinion outweighed by 80% of other experts. No detail given as a discussion showing how tariffs would be an advantage for example. How small UK business would be helped. In fact nothing but top level possibilities.


----------



## Goblin

As for financial sector.. we'll wait and see how much moves to mainland europe. Already some companies are moving and that's before negotiations start. Brexit was always going to be damaging to the EU.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> While we await our flight to a country proud of its EU membership, making the most of our limited time left as proud EU citizens, here's some UK news
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ncerns-top-worry-list-for-banks-a7540936.html
> View attachment 298201


It would be a bit silly if it wasn't one of their top concerns now wouldn't it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> As for financial sector.. we'll wait and see how much moves to mainland europe. Already some companies are moving and that's before negotiations start. Brexit was always going to be damaging to the EU.


Which financial companies have moved to mainland Europe? Proof please. None from what I have seen in the City of London have left and I live in London. Media fabrication is at play here and remoaners negativity.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> It would be a bit silly if it wasn't one of their top concerns now wouldn't it?


I don't understand your comment.

Yes, I'm proud of being part of the EU and deeply resent the prospect of being forced to leave it against my wishes (I'm speaking for myself rather than for the whole of the UK).

A bigoted Nationalist UK is not something I'm proud of. It represents everything I detest.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> In short yes, this is one opinon, an opinion outweighed by 80% of other experts. No detail given as a discussion showing how tariffs would be an advantage for example. How small UK business would be helped. In fact nothing but top level possibilities.


One the article talks about no tariffs with countries the UK will do free trade deals with. Two are you talking about the 80% of experts that have currently got all there doom and gloom predictions sorry opinions wrong and back tracked on what they predicted? Three the article does mention the UK as a whole being successful post Brexit, but you don't understand and refuse to acknowledge this could be a reality. Diddums that EU citizens will have to get visas to come to the UK and the EU may go to the back of the queue when it comes to a free trade deal with the UK. Some kind of deal for access to London City would have to be agreed for the EU as they have there financial centre there. So much for the EU Empire which the UK wishes no longer to be part of.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I don't understand your comment.
> 
> Yes, I'm proud of being part of the EU and deeply resent the prospect of being forced to leave it against my wishes (I'm speaking for myself rather than for the whole of the UK).
> 
> A bigoted Nationalist UK is not something I'm proud of. It represents everything I detest.


I was commenting on the link you gave that said 90% of banks were preparing for Brexit as a priority, and that somehow that was reflecting low optimism. Somehow, I'd be very worried about the other 10%.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> One the article talks about no tariffs with countries the UK will do free trade deals with


Assuming we get free trade deals signed, of course. Given that all the countries willing to deal with us so far are demanding free movement as part of the deal, according to May we'll be walking away.



stockwellcat said:


> Two are you talking about the 80% of experts that have currently got all there doom and gloom predictions sorry opinions wrong and back tracked on what they predicted?


A) We haven't _left _yet, or even formally announced we are leaving, so the doom and gloom may simply be on hold. B) past performance is no indication of what the future holds, C) It's only sensible to hope for the best but plan for the worst, isn't it? 



stockwellcat said:


> Three the article does mention the UK as a whole being successful post Brexit, but you don't understand and refuse to acknowledge this could be a reality. Diddums that EU citizens will have to get visas to come to the UK and the EU may go to the back of the queue when it comes to a free trade deal with the UK.


One more time, no-one except you is talking about something as unimportant and small fry as _visas or tarrifs_. We're talking the potental for massive customs delays, mandatory quarantine for animal imports and exports (which we don't have the facilities for), standards compliance testing etc. - all massive extra overheads that will put what UK industry and agriculture we have at a significant competitive disadvantage, especially as we will not be able to protect against cheap imports. Unless you are expecting that the the majority of Brits will chose to buy British over paying half the price?



stockwellcat said:


> Some kind of deal for access to London City would have to be agreed for the EU as they have there financial centre there. So much for the EU Empire which the UK wishes no longer to be part of.


That's a massively big assumption. If the world financiers decide to move elsewhere, they are capable of doing that. They may not WANT to, but unless they get what they want from Brexit and it is better for them financially both in the short term and the long run, they will go where there is the most profit to be made - particularly if London no-longer has EU pasporting. Which more or less translates into if the government want sot keep the banks, then they have to be ruled by the needs of the banks. Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam and even Dublin have been quietly making moves to start taking over London trade, FYI, and some sources are saying that the retaining financal passporting hs been dropped from the negotiations.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Which financial companies have moved to mainland Europe? Proof please. None from what I have seen in the City of London have left and I live in London. Media fabrication is at play here and remoaners negativity.


Never said they had already moved but obvious you only read news from where you want to. HSBC moving 1000 jobs, other firms looking into it. HSBC already has office and necessary business permision to operate in the EU so it's leading the way.

Once the necessary jobs are moved, the EU isn't going to suffer anywhere near as much is it? May is unable to guarantee achieving anything in negotiations. Not everything will likely move but enough to lessen any harm to the EU. EU gains strengthening finance sector and UK loses.

Don't forget Nissan and Toyota whilst looking at companies seriously considering their positions.

You always come back to we are doing okay. Tell that to those who have lost jobs directly due to Brexit, and those who are worried about the future. May's great at feel good pep talks, less at delivering and refuses any details and risk analysis when asked. Remind me again how the retail sector did last month. Didn't it fall more than any time since 2012 or something... Yes, we've had growth etc but how much as been fueled by unfounded optimism and debt?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Never said they had already moved but obvious you only read news from where you want to. HSBC moving 1000 jobs, other firms looking into it. HSBC already has office and necessary business permision to operate in the EU so it's leading the way.
> 
> Once the necessary jobs are moved, the EU isn't going to suffer anywhere near as much is it? May is unable to guarantee achieving anything in negotiations. Not everything will likely move but enough to lessen any harm to the EU. EU gains strengthening finance sector and UK loses.
> 
> Don't forget Nissan and Toyota whilst looking at companies seriously considering their positions.
> 
> You always come back to we are doing okay. Tell that to those who have lost jobs directly due to Brexit, and those who are worried about the future. May's great at feel good pep talks, less at delivering and refuses any details and risk analysis when asked. Remind me again how the retail sector did last month. Didn't it fall more than any time since 2012 or something... Yes, we've had growth etc but how much as been fueled by unfounded optimism and debt?


I have again to tell you Goblin HSBC is the Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corporation it isn't even a British business. No you read what you want to and what suits you. The retail sector done well in December Goblin, record sales. Debt has been accumulating for years and honestly no different since the Referendum. Gossip from remoaners saying debt is getting higher when in actual fact the debt you are talking about is personal debt people are accumulating (I got rid of mine - kissed good bye to my credit cards shortly after new year - don't need them), the UK's debt as a country is rising as normal and would expect to be rising. Nissan and Toyota again are Japanese car firms, German car firms manufacturing cars in the UK have said they are going nowhere eg have no intention of leaving the UK.

If HSBC leave the UK there customers in the UK will get charged for using there banking facilities when the UK Brexits. If customers Banking with this bank have any sense they will swap to another bank in the UK to avoid being charged account fees. But here's the punch line, this is two years away yet.

Again Goblin. What UK financial services have left the UK? Answer None.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Remind me again how the retail sector did last month


https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry

Increase of 4.3% on last December and 3months on 3 moths up by 1.2%

Don't know where you are getting your figures. The papers again?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin is in a fret trying to back his negative information from newspaper sources in Germany up. Hasn't got a clue what has really happened in the UK. Your recent post comes across as desperately trying to find a negative point in a positive situation for the UK.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> *Yes, we've had growth* etc but how much as been* fueled by unfounded optimism* and debt?


HaHaHa


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> EU gains strengthening finance sector and UK loses.


Wishful thinking from remainers and EU MEP's.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I have again to tell you Goblin HSBC is the Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corporation it isn't even a British business.


What, can you tell me any company in the UK finance sector that is actually still British? When you come down to it very few "british" companies are actually british anymore.



rona said:


> Increase of 4.3% on last December and 3months on 3 moths up by 1.2%
> Don't know where you are getting your figures. The papers again?


Down 1.9% from the previous month (November) using the *same information source* which is the largest decline since April 2012. Try again Rona.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> What, can you tell me any company in the UK finance sector that is actually still British? When you come down to it very few "british" companies are actually british anymore.
> 
> Down 1.9% from the previous month (November) using the same information source which is the largest decline since April 2012. Try again Rona.



Yawn.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> HaHaHa


So tell us, detail the facts which you have avoided so diligently before.



stockwellcat said:


> Yawn.


What, unable to provide financial sector businesses in the UK which are actually british. As you seem to indicate that's what the UK finance sector is.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@rona, @Satori, @DT
Shall we start our own thread on Brexit and leave the remoaners to this thread


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Wishful thinking from remainers and EU MEP's.


Not.

Financial sector is moving.
EU workers in new best deals will be replaced by free or freer movement from USA, Australia, India, African states...
At least that will make Global Britain...
But how many Islamic extremists came from Poland?
Imagine that those deals relaxing workforce movement will be with countries that positively dwarf UK!!!

Wages which were growing might fall by about 30%!!!
NHS gone and dead...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 298240


This person's opinion is duely noted at the back of the queue with all the other opinions from the so called experts who have been wrong so far.

NHS hasn't gone. What you talking about? Was there today when my mum got discharged from hospital and will be there next week when she has her appointment and any emergency appointments needed inbetween. The NHS is the only free medical service in the world and needs reforming so it carries on being free for patients using there services and to stop them using money without having to be accountable to it. I found an audit report done after the Labour government left power in 2010 and do you know that Labour was no different than the conservatives except labour sold off parts of the NHS to private companies to deal with the debt. The Labour government agreed to only give the NHS £1billion a year in its last term in office towards the NHS, the conservatives have given more to the NHS than labour did financially over the last 6 years.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> What, can you tell me any company in the UK finance sector that is actually still British? When you come down to it very few "british" companies are actually british anymore.
> 
> Down 1.9% from the previous month (November) using the *same information source* which is the largest decline since April 2012. Try again Rona.


Yes but how far up was it? If you look at the graphs you will see that there has been a steady upward trend. One month proves nothing

November was a dry balmy month, and we all know that people shop less when it's warm and more when it's cold and wet.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> @rona, @Satori, @DT
> Shall we start our own thread on Brexit and leave the remoaners to this thread


I'd rather not. As far as I'm concerned it's done, just waiting for the dust to settle and it all be sorted.
I just can't believe the propaganda and twisting of facts from some of the UK haters on here


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I'd rather not. As far as I'm concerned it's done, just waiting for the dust to settle and it all be sorted.
> I just can't believe the propaganda and twisting of facts from some of the UK haters on here


I do not hate the UK, but I hate what it's become which is a completely different thing.

I would say exactly the same about another country if they left the EU and believe they could dominate the world of at least believed they were superior to others which is what happened in the UK.

I want what's best for the UK which is to remain an active member of the EU as it had done so over 40 years. May preaching "Best possible" this and that is not good enough, it's like accepting any deals will be inferior to what we currently enjoy.

I'm not proud of the "British" label anymore. I was as an active EU member.

This is not a UK I was born into, recognise nor wish to live in. The horrible irony to this is matters will become far more complex if possible at all to retire within the EU.

I cringe at nationalism, wherever it's from. It belongs in the past with Hitler and the Nazis.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I cringe at nationalism, wherever it's from. It belongs in the past with Hitler and the Nazis.


Makes me cringe that the far right is on the rise in Germany, France and the Netherlands etc. I wonder why that is?


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I'd rather not. As far as I'm concerned it's done, just waiting for the dust to settle and it all be sorted.
> I just can't believe the propaganda and twisting of facts from some of the UK haters on here


Wow.. UK haters as we wish the best for the UK and for europe as a whole. Now that is laughable when you are prepared to damage the UK long term but cannot even explain why.


----------



## Satori




----------



## Satori

Joh Maven said:


> Wow I wonder what will turn out happening!


Is that your pup in your avatar?


----------



## Goblin

Not out yet Satori.. still have years to go.


----------



## Satori




----------



## stuaz

This thread is now over 200 pages. Though probably the last 30+ pages have been the same arguments on both sides going round and round and round and round and round....


----------



## Jonescat

@stockwellcat - when you use big fonts it is *really really* hard to read on my phone


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> @stockwellcat - when you use big fonts it is *really really* hard to read on my phone


Blame the papers for the big fonts


----------



## rona

Jonescat said:


> @stockwellcat - when you use big fonts it is *really really* hard to read on my phone


..................and there's just so much of it


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> I'd rather not. As far as I'm concerned it's done, just waiting for the dust to settle and it all be sorted.
> I just can't believe the propaganda and twisting of facts from some of the UK haters on here


Totaly agree, on all counts.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> I do not hate the UK, but I hate what it's become which is a completely different thing.
> 
> I would say exactly the same about another country if they left the EU and believe they could dominate the world of at least believed they were superior to others which is what happened in the UK.
> 
> I want what's best for the UK which is to remain an active member of the EU as it had done so over 40 years. May preaching "Best possible" this and that is not good enough, it's like accepting any deals will be inferior to what we currently enjoy.
> 
> I'm not proud of the "British" label anymore. I was as an active EU member.
> 
> I cringe at nationalism, wherever it's from. It belongs in the past with Hitler and the Nazis.


Fact is whichever way it went there were always going to be a heck of a lot of unhappy people, youve, not just you, but all remainers, have had your forty years now some of us want to try it another way,


----------



## 1290423

I wonder if well have a big street party when we finally cut the cord
Maybe they will make it a bank holiday ,Independence Day

Best get working on the bunting


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry
> 
> Increase of 4.3% on last December and 3months on 3 moths up by 1.2%
> 
> Don't know where you are getting your figures. The papers again?


yep, the beano


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> I wonder if well have a big street party when we finally cut the cord
> Maybe they will make it a bank holiday ,Independence Day
> 
> Best get working on the bunting


Street parties like these you mean 
































I am hoping Independence Day becomes a National Holiday to be celebrated each year after it happens.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Supreme Court gives it's verdict this morning.

*The 11 Supreme Court Justices have said it has not been easy coming to there verdict on who can trigger Article 50.*

The lawyers will know the verdict behind closed locked doors in a room at the Supreme Court at 8:00am so they can digest the results before being allowed to go into the Court Room at 9:15am for the verdict at 9:30am. The Prime Minster will find out at 9:15am what the verdict is.

The Government have legislation (a bill) ready to put through Parliament today incase they lose.

The Supreme Court Justices are also ruling on if the devolved states Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a say in the Brexit negotiations. There is only a 20% chance of being ruled in the devolved states favour.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I am hoping Independence Day becomes a National Holiday to be celebrated each year after it happens.


Nothing to celebrate. How can we celebrate "independence" when we already had it? Better name would be "division day". If England wants another holiday St Georges day would be far more appropriate. Then again he was a european, not British so hardly appropriate.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Nothing to celebrate. How can we celebrate "independence" when we already had it? Better name would be "division day". If England wants another holiday St Georges day would be far more appropriate. Then again he was a european, not British so hardly appropriate.


The horrible irony is the UK will be losing independence (within Europe that is), not gaining it!


----------



## KittenKong

I don't often agree with Nick Clegg but he's absolutely spot on here 
















http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...lists-destroying-european-union-a7542676.html


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The horrible irony is the UK will be losing *independence (within Europe that is)*, not gaining it!


You really don't get it do you?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You really don't get it do you?


You're entitled to your view but I don't believe losing my right to free movement is independence! On the contrary....


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> You really don't get it do you?


You can't even explain it. Now let's see I have independence, I like having mechanisms which protect rights like that. That according to you makes me a UK hater. Go figure.


----------



## KittenKong

Yes, I knew it wouldn't be long before the 48% (and others not eligible to vote) are accused of, "Not believing in Britain" or actually hating Britain! 

Declared an "enemy of Britain" for having a different opinion? What does that remind you of?


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Justices are split 8 to 3. Article 50 must be triggered by Parliament.

The Devolution powers do not have individual powers and the UK Government will decide what happens.

So Article 50 the Government lost.
Devolved Assemblies the Government Won.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I knew it wouldn't be long before the 48% (and others not eligible to vote) are accused of, "Not believing in Britain" or actually hating Britain!
> 
> Declared an "enemy of Britain" for having a different opinion? What does that remind you of?


You haven't won. Brexit is not stopped.

Parliament get to vote on a bill that will be put to Parliament today by David Davis or sometime this week. This verdict was not unanimous it was split 8 to 3.

Devolved powers have to accept what the UK Government decides. So Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have to accept what Westminster say. So Sturgeon can't have her Independence Referendum as Westminster have already said no to this or a separate deal with the EU.

The Government lawyer has said that the Government is still on course to trigger Article 50 by the 31st March 2017.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Corbyn has said Labour will not frustrate the article 50 process and has just urged labour MPs to back the bill presented to trigger Article 50.

It's up to the Government what type of legislation to present to Parliament as the Supreme Court said it wasn't up to them to decide this. So the legislation bill could be 1 line long with very little room for amendments.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> You haven't won. Brexit is not stopped


This wasn't about stopping Brexit, it was about stopping an abuse of process by government.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> This wasn't about stopping Brexit, it was about stopping an abuse of process by government.


We know that.
Some devout remainers don't.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am glad this went to the Supreme Court as it has closed the issue of devolved assemblies trying to stay in the EU by rejecting the UK Governments decisions. The devolved Governments have no power to do this.The Government do not need to consult the devolved Governments. This verdict was unanimous by the Supreme Justices.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> I am glad this went to the Supreme Court as it has closed the issue of devolved assemblies trying to stay in the EU by rejecting the UK Governments decisions. The devolved Governments have no power to do this.


Yeah, me too. I am fine with the decision tbh. The law is the law, just before we didn't quite know what it was; now we do. Gina Miller has been vindicated really. She had a view that using prerogative powers to trigger article 50 was unconstitutional and our finest legal minds, on the whole, agree with her.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> Some devout remainers don't.


I voted remain and still believe leaving isn't best for Britain. That doesn't mean I don't recognise the result of the referendum. This judgement today is a huge relief. Had it gone the other way it would have given truly frightening powers to government - not only to do with Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Yeah, me too. I am fine with the decision tbh. The law is the law, just before we didn't quite know what it was; now we do. Gina Miller has been vindicated really. She had a view that using prerogative powers to trigger article 50 was unconstitutional and our finest legal minds, on the whole, agree with her.


Overall I agree that it is fine that the law has been made clear on both issues.

SNP said they are putting forward 50 amendments and Politicians said they will read them but Scotland may not have the power to put amendments forward due to the ruling handed down today on devolved assemblies.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just heads up. David Davis is doing a speech in Parliament at 12:30pm on the verdict and no doubt on when the reading of the bill for legislation will happen. You can watch this on Freeview Channel 131 Parliament Channel or on the news when the story breaks.


----------



## 1290423

Can we just get on with it please


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Can we just get on with it please


Second this....


----------



## havoc

DT said:


> Can we just get on with it please


Yes of course, this wasn't about stopping us leaving. It was far more fundamental. If this judgement had gone the other way there would never be need for Parliament, for an opposition, for debate.


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> Yes of course, this wasn't about stopping us leaving. It was far more fundamental. If this judgement had gone the other way there would never be need for Parliament, for an opposition, for debate.


Yep, I know, just want to get on with it, its been topicof coversation for months now x


----------



## havoc

DT said:


> Yep, I know, just want to get on with it, its been topicof coversation for months now


I agree and I wish there hadn't been this need for legal challenge. There wouldn't have been if Ms May hadn't decided to act ultra vires.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Maybe this thread should now be closed and a new one started with an appropriate title? 

:Yawn


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Some devout remainers don't.


The protest about this, the denial of what it is about comes from the leave side, even yourself far more than any remainers.



havoc said:


> That doesn't mean I don't recognise the result of the referendum.


Who doesn't recognise the result of the *referendum*. People also believe that a referendum still allows for democracy to continue.


----------



## havoc

Goblin said:


> People also believe that a referendum still allows for democracy to continue


So does the judiciary so all sorted.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So are we not going to hear the end of this on this thread?

Points to take into consideration:

David Davis has said this is at the point of no return, the UK will be leaving the EU as instructed by the 17.4 million people who voted for this on the 23/06/2016.
Parliament is getting a vote on triggering Article 50 to abide to the ruling of the High Court and Supreme Court.
Various debates will take place as the Government process leaving the EU through the EU with the EU.
Ministers on the Brexit Select Committee will get to scrutinise every stage of leaving the EU.
The devolved assemblies do not have the right to be consulted but will have a chance to vote when votes take place in the UK Parliament in Westminster.
The Great Repeal Bill will be voted on.
The removing of the 1972 European Communities Act will be debated in Parliament before its removal.
Labour aren't going to block the process of article 50 during the bill being put through Parliament as they are not going to block the will of the UK public.
No devolved assembly has a veto around Brexit at all.
There is a reason why the 31st March 2017 and why this date was chosen by the Government.
A second Referendum has been ruled out completely by the Government.
The Prime Minister's outline of what is wanted out of the EU by leaving the EU was very clear.
Now it is in Parliament's and the Governments hands.

I hope we can move forward on this soon so the UK can get into negotiations with the EU.

As David Davis said today no one can say what the eventual outcome will be from these negotiations except the UK will be leaving the EU and Parliament will get to ratify the final agreement.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Now it is in Parliament's and the Governments hands.


Which means it's in the people's hands as parliament consists of MP's who can be lobbied to represent the feeling and mood of their constituents. David Davis can say what he wants. Doesn't make it true. 350 million will go to the NHS after all...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Go on carry on moaning at Goblin it is getting repetitive now.

You can say what you want but what was said today in Parliament the MPs at large back the Government from both sides of the house.

David Davis is putting to the house a bill in the next few days which will go to Lords afterwards.

The court case was only on triggering article 50 nothing else. So yes David Davis does get a say as he is in charge of the Department for withdrawing the UK from the EU.

The point moving forward is that the bill will pass through Parliament swiftly as it is only going to be a few lines long. As Ian Duncan Smith said today keep it short and sweet like "Does Parliament give the power to the Government to trigger Article 50?"

Remember before Christmas a similar vote took place and the Government got an overwhelming majority of 372 about the Government triggering article 50 by 31st March 2017.

MPs are at large saying that they are not going to thwart the will of the British people and vote in favour of the Governments plans of triggering article 50.


----------



## kimthecat

According to Twitter some Labour MPs are going to vote against it .

Latest: *Labour MP* Geraint Davies has said he will vote against Article 50. His constituency (#*SwanseaWest*) voted to Leave.

and now Owen Smith


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> According to Twitter some Labour MPs are going to vote against it .
> 
> Latest: *Labour MP* Geraint Davies has said he will vote against Article 50. His constituency (#*SwanseaWest*) voted to Leave.
> 
> and now Owen Smith


Of course a few MPs are going to vote against article 50 being triggered. The majority vote will win.


----------



## samuelsmiles

kimthecat said:


> According to Twitter some Labour MPs are going to vote against it .
> 
> Latest: *Labour MP* Geraint Davies has said he will vote against Article 50. His constituency (#*SwanseaWest*) voted to Leave.
> 
> and now Owen Smith


He's not a Labour man of great morals.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Go on carry on moaning at Goblin it is getting repetitive now.


So the idea of the government having a mandate to leave  So is the idea that politicians tell the truth. how is the 48% represented in parliament I wonder? No they are being told what to vote not by what they believe is right but by politics. Article 50 will pass. Couple of years at least fighting to go on and on.

Interesting no 2nd referendum.. why are leave campaigners so scared.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> why are leave campaigners so scared.


Nope not scared, frustrated is the word you are meant to use. Just wanting the Government and Parliament to get on with it now as it is now getting very repetitive and drawn out for no reason at all now.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Nope not scared, frustrated is the word you are meant to use. Just wanting the Government and Parliament to get on with it now as it is now getting very repetitive and drawn out for no reason at all now.


Ever heard the phrase "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread?"

Or "Measure twice, cut once?"

Taking the time to get the basics right, even if it means delays, is far more sensible than doing a Leroy Jenkins


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> This wasn't about stopping Brexit, it was about stopping an abuse of process by government.


British democracy at it's best 

Couldn't do that at the EU


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> British democracy at it's best
> 
> Couldn't do that at the EU


Actually that's exactly what the ECJ was, another method to hold governments accountable. Next lie please Rona.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Actually that's exactly what the ECJ was, another method to hold governments accountable. Next lie please Rona.


............................................


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Interesting no 2nd referendum.. why are leave campaigners so scared.


 Sorry , don't understand, why would there be a second referendum?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> British democracy at it's best
> 
> Couldn't do that at the EU


If Gina Miller hadn't brought the case to challenge it, the government would have ignored our sovereign Parliament. If that's British democracy at its best we should all keep a close and suspicious eye on it.

The EU has the ECJ to perform the same function, though with 27 countries involved there is less opportunity to subvert democracy the way ours just tried to do.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Sorry , don't understand, why would there be a second referendum?


Don't worry there's going to be no second Referendum.

How embarrassing for Tim Farron and the Lib Dems? Only one MP from the Lib Dems turned up to a packed Houses of Parliament to listen to David Davis, but she soon left.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> If Gina Miller hadn't brought the case to challenge it, the government would have ignored our sovereign Parliament. If that's British democracy at its best we should all keep a close and suspicious eye on it.
> 
> The EU has the ECJ to perform the same function, though with 27 countries involved there is less opportunity to subvert democracy the way ours just tried to do.


But that is democracy. I don't know why anyone would question that. She did bring the case, it was decided in a court of law and the decision was made backing (as far as I'm concerned) the right verdict.

Just the fact that she could do that shows true democracy

Less chance of questioning anything within EU and getting heard


----------



## havoc

rona said:


> Just the fact that she could do that shows true democracy


The fact that she had to shows how close we were to losing it. It wasn't democracy that allowed the challenge, it was a judicial process. No ordinary person could have done this, you need deep pockets and huge nerve. This was only about Brexit - lord help us if a politician tries to play the same game again over something that actually matters.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> According to Twitter some Labour MPs are going to vote against it .
> 
> Latest: *Labour MP* Geraint Davies has said he will vote against Article 50. His constituency (#*SwanseaWest*) voted to Leave.
> 
> and now Owen Smith


Good for them. I hope some pro EU moderates within the Conservative party do the same.

Well, I've seen many GB, Norwegian. Nederland, German and French cars today.

Nice to know they're all welcome even though it's no longer the case in the UK. No non EU/EEA area cars spotted however, I imagine in the years ahead they'll be fewer UK cars (if any)

Contrary to what The Sun says UK drivers aren't covering up the EU logo on their car number plates. I've yet to see it in the UK let alone abroad and my own car proudly bears GB EU plates as you'd expect.

I can just see it in The Sun: "Spot the remoaners by their number plates".....


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> Don't worry there's going to be no second Referendum.
> 
> .


 Im not worried.  I just wondered why Goblin thought there would be .


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Less chance of questioning anything within EU and getting heard


Really Rona.. Are over 50% of the population currently being heard in the UK?


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> This was only about Brexit - lord help us if a politician tries to play the same game again over something that actually matters.


Brexit matters very much! Having said that I agree with you otherwise. I can just see May legalising foxhunting without a parliamentary vote had it gone her way today amongst many others horrible things that could happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Really Rona.. Are over 50% of the population currently being heard in the UK?


Correction. 48% 
You already posted this video clip on here.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Im not worried.  I just wondered why Goblin thought there would be .


Tim Farron and his 9 MPs making noise about wanting one might be something to do with it. No chance of it happening though.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Tim Farron and his 9 MPs making noise about wanting one might be something to do with it. No chance of it happening though.


Yet.. People power still exists. An opinion poll is not a mandate.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yet.. People power still exists. An opinion poll is not a mandate.


It's not an opinion anymore. It has been accepted around the world that the UK is leaving the EU even the judge today referred to it as being accepted.

No longer an opinion anymore I am afraid.

What power? You won one court case for the triggering of article 50 that is all.

If this ends up going to an election which is now being averted at any costs TM will make it her mandate and she will win as the opposition is none existent and very week. Jeremy Corbyn just nods and agrees with the Conservatives.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Yet.. People power still exists. An opinion poll is not a mandate.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Correction. 48%


Correction 48% of those who voted + those who recognise they were lied to etc etc. You need the videos of Farage and Co promising how the single market wouldn't be left again? When you buy something based on false advertising you normally return it. Why should this be any different?

I know I posted the video previously. Obviously people didn't look at it, they certainly haven't disputed the facts in it, prefering instead to keep repeating lies.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Correction 48% of those who voted + those who recognise they were lied to etc etc. You need the videos of Farage and Co promising how the single market wouldn't be left again? When you buy something based on false advertising you normally return it.
> 
> I know I posted the video previously. Obviously people didn't look at it, they certainly haven't disputed the facts in it, prefering instead to keep repeating lies.


Stop insulting the leave supporters.

No please don't. I do want to kind of move on from this endless rant of yours.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> I can just see May legalising foxhunting without a parliamentary vote had it gone her way today


What about when it isn't May any more? What about if we get to the point that someone could claim sovereign power to decree women shouldn't drive or that a child should be publicly whipped for misbehaving in a shop? Much as I'm no fan of foxhunting I do think there are things I'd care about more.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Simply democracy can actually vote itself out. .
It happened when Hitler got democratically elected and it was the last of democracy and the beginning of dictatorship....

Problem is that people want to believe in what they want to hear...not in what is true...so appealing lies can beat unpalatable truth ....
Even blatant lies if endorsed by well known figures ...
Not many would have bought Farage without BJ...
Unfortunately our political leaders in England are loudspeakers for their party donors , try to further their career without a care what happens to the country past the next election...
By then their pockets would be lined up...
Cameron, Corbyn, May, Johnson...
Farage was a clown and nothing changed...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> *Problem is that people want to believe in what they want to hear...*


So true look at the posts on here from remainers.

The UK is still leaving the EU. Devolved Assemblies still dont have to be consulted anymore.

Gibraltar did not get mentioned by the Supreme Court Justice by the way.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Stop insulting the leave supporters..


That's a joke isn't it.. what did I say, lies such as no accountability in the EU is being repeated? That's not insulting people. Should I have called them alternative facts instead?

Let's see those who disagree are remoaners, ukhaters, ranters.. need I go on.



stockwellcat said:


> So true look at the posts on here from remainers.


What the fact people will continue to oppose the government's direction. That's not people not believing what they hear, that's people looking at facts rather than wishful thinking.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> That's a joke isn't it.. what did I say, lies such as no accountability in the EU is being repeated? That's not insulting people. Should I have called them alternative facts instead?
> 
> Let's see those who disagree are remoaners, ukhaters, ranters.. need I go on.
> 
> What the fact people will continue to oppose the government's direction. That's not people not believing what they hear, that's people looking at facts rather than wishful thinking.


It's a vote to trigger Article 50 Goblin not to give Parliament control over the Brexit negotiations. Why you making an issue of it. It's a friggin vote to trigger the start of the Brexit process that's all.

It is said to be a short bill of legislation as well that will be passed through Parliament. Even the Supreme Court acknowledge they can't have a say on the length of the bill or what the bill is to say.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> It's a vote to trigger Article 50 Goblin not to give Parliament control over the Brexit negotiations. Why you making an issue of it. It's a friggin vote to trigger the start of the Brexit process that's all.


You are the one making an issue out of it. All I have said is the fight to remain in the EU is ongoing even after Article 50 is handed in. David Davis says X.. Government previously said it would use the "royal perogative". Things change.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> But that is democracy. I don't know why anyone would question that. She did bring the case, it was decided in a court of law and the decision was made backing (as far as I'm concerned) the right verdict.
> 
> Just the fact that she could do that shows true democracy
> *
> Less chance of questioning anything within EU and getting heard*


How so?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just to set things straight.

I still remain a leave voter and will back TM's Government all the way until after Brexit has happened and the UK is out of the EU and probably beyond.


----------



## Jonescat

Just heard someone on the radio saying that because it is a bill, then Parliament COULD amend it, and just for badness, they then went on to say the one of the amendments could be to stay in the single market....

Really though, it wasn't about Brexit. It was about parliamentary democracy, precedent and all that sort of thing. It was important and now it's sorted. Let us all hope that the Government remains as respectful of the judiciary as the judiciary is of parliament.

And I hope that this thread continues for 40 years without being shut down, because people have the absolute right to talk rubbish if they want to, for as long as they want, in as many circles as they like, just as people who are fed up have the ability to walk away and do something else instead.


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> she'll be taking the politicians to court next


I can't see where it says that. Can you pick out the quote please.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Just to set things straight.
> 
> I still remain a leave voter and will back TM's Government all the way until after Brexit has happened and the UK is out of the EU and probably beyond.


Outer space ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Outer space ?


No. Not all. You tell me who the opposition party is at the moment strong enough to stand up against the Tories? The Labour party sorry Corbyn just agrees with her and nods his head.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> I still remain a leave voter and will back TM's Government all the way until after Brexit has happened and the UK is out of the EU and probably beyond


Without question no matter what they do - to infinity and beyond?


----------



## kimthecat

If there's a second referendum , I'd do it differently. I wouldn't tell anyone how i voted. When asked, I'd just say the same as you .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> If there's a second referendum , I'd do it differently. I wouldn't tell anyone how i voted. When asked, I'd just say the same as you .


I wouldn't say anything and keep everyone guessing


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Simply democracy can actually vote itself out. .
> It happened when Hitler got democratically elected and it was the last of democracy and the beginning of dictatorship....


 He had his rivals murdered . I can't see TM doing that or will she . perhaps that's why she dresses as a clown


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> I wouldn't say anything and keep everyone guessing


You wouldn't be able to.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> You wouldn't be able to.


Well on here your right, but not in real life  as nobody knows apart from my family.


----------



## KittenKong

I liked this and certainly reflects how I feel although I'm a bit older.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I liked this and certainly reflects how I feel although I'm a bit older.
> View attachment 298348


I was born a British Citizen even though I was born in Northern Ireland I have always recognised my nationality as being British and will not refer to myself as being an EU citizen. The EU didn't exist until 1993 (Just a technicality in the post above). I was bought up to respect myself as being British with British Values and to respect the British way of life during a very hard time in history when my dad was in the British Army in West Germany in the height of the Cold War. I was never told I was an EU Citizen ever by my parents as the EU simply didn't exist until a year after I left school. I have never in my life called myself or refer to myself as being an EU citizen as I am proud to be a British Citizen.


----------



## havoc

You were very happy to shout about being an Irish citizen not so long back


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> You were very happy to shout about being an Irish citizen not so long back


Says you


----------



## samuelsmiles

Good grief - spare me the sadness, Philippa Watts.

"The EU is my skin."

"Rob a generation of a fundamental part of their identity"

"I will certainly be bringing up my children in a European spirit"

Nauseating, disingenous nonsense.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am proud to be a a British Citizen.








A pub near my dads house was told to take the above flag down by the local council because it offended people.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Good grief - spare me the sadness, Philippa Watts.
> 
> "The EU is my skin."
> 
> "Rob a generation of a fundamental part of their identity"
> 
> "I will certainly be bringing up my children in a European spirit"
> 
> Nauseating, disingenous nonsense.


I happen to agree with her 100%. Not nonsense at all but that's my opinion. You are entitled to yours....

As for the Irish citizenship comment, Brexit has threatened the Good Friday agreement so that could well change.

The Good Friday agreement was one of the best achievements of the late 20th Century. Started by Tory PM John Major and finished by Tony Blair with his gracious acknowledgement of John Major's efforts it was a very proud moment for me.

Not only proud of the agreement but also the way Tony Blair didn't take all the credit and acknowledged John Major's involvement.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I happen to agree with her 100%. Not nonsense at all but that's my opinion. You are entitled to yours....
> 
> As for the Irish citizenship comment, Brexit has threatened the Good Friday agreement so that could well change.
> 
> The Good Friday agreement was one of the best achievements of the late 20th Century. Started by Tory PM John Major and finished by Tony Blair with his gracious acknowledgement of John Major's efforts it was a very proud moment for me.
> 
> Not only proud of the agreement but also the way Tony Blair didn't take all the credit and acknowledged John Major's involvement.


I doubt it regarding the Good Friday Agreement. Neither side wants to return to the past. The Northern Irish Government have a problem at the moment there is no devolved Government. If they fail to reinstate a power sharing devolved Government after the next elections in March 2017 the UK Government will dissolve the devolved powers and take over through an emergency legislation and powers put back to Westminster. The majority of the Northern Irish side of Ireland want this to happen because they have stressed that the current devolved Government are useless and wasting NI tax payers money as they are constantly arguing with each other. The Northern Irish people feel that the devolved Government aren't looking after the Northern Irish people due to the power sharing Government continuously arguing with each other.

The Current Elections in Northern Ireland Are Nothing To Do With Brexit by the way.


----------



## kimthecat

I thought the current NI problems were due to the heating scandal and McGuinness resigning not Brexit?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I thought the current NI problems were due to the heating scandal and McGuinness resigning not Brexit?


They are but Brexit is being blamed as the cause of the something that hasn't happened yet with the Good Friday Agreement. Martin McGuinness was going to retire anyway due to ill health but made a drama out of it instead.

The tensions between the Northern Ireland political parties run deeper than this though. Look back in the history of Northern Ireland.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I thought the current NI problems were due to the heating scandal and McGuinness resigning not Brexit?


Long before that I would imagine as the resurrection of a hard border between NI and the ROI/EU was on the cards before the narrow leave victory in the UK as a whole.

The risk of a return to the days of a hard border was significant in the remain victory in NI.

As with Scotland and Gibraltar the London based central government refuse to acknowledge the will of the people in these countries.....

I say, let England and Wales become the isolated countries they want to be but don't drag Gibralter, Scotland nor NI into this mess they didn't vote for.

Brexit isn't the Will of" these people .. .


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> As for the Irish citizenship comment, Brexit has threatened the Good Friday agreement so that could well change


Why?


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> Why?


See post #3912 in this thread.


----------



## Goblin

So last time I asked this Stockwellcat you didn't answer. How would open border between NI and Ireland work when you would need customs checks. If for no other reason to prevent exploitation of any trading deal made between the UK and another party? How could open borders work considering Ireland will retain EU free movement. Fly in, cross the border? If you have checks, who is going to pay for them?


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> See post #3912 in this thread.


Why would that change anything to do with citizenship? The south never abandoned its citizens in the north from partition onwards, why would it do so now?


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> Why would that change anything to do with citizenship? The south never abandoned its citizens in the north from partition onwards, why would it do so now?


Would have thought this was obvious.

UK withdrawal from the EU on the grounds of immigration May bleats on about will inevitably result in the resurrection of a hard border between the North and ROI seeing the latter is staying in the EU.

This will no is doubt result in God knows what. May has made it clear NI, Gibraltar and Scotland won't have a voice in the matter.

This unelected PM believes she has the answer to everything, a hard Brexit will unite the and the EU will comply with her demands..

What complete and utter bulls**t.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> Would have thought this was obvious.


Not to me it isn't. The south has always recognised everyone from the island of Ireland as Irish citizens. They've done so no matter what the UK thought or did. There will presumably have to be immigration controls at the border but that has nothing to do with citizenship. I'd already worked out it will just be convenient to use the Irish passport going south and the Brit one coming north just as I'd use an Irish passport to travel anywhere else throughout the EU and a Brit one coming into the UK.


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> I'd rather not. As far as I'm concerned it's done, just waiting for the dust to settle and it all be sorted.
> I just can't believe the propaganda and *twisting* *facts from the UK haters on here*


That's the same dummy you once spat at me after criticising the UK. You also claimed I had no right to pass opinion on anything concerning the country because I no longer lived there.
It's strange, don't you think, how you've never condemmed others who neither live in the country or no longer live in the country for speaking out against it, instead you've slyly rounded up all those who find fault with the UK and its conniving government and branded them 'Haters' :Hilarious


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Shall we start our own thread on Brexit and leave the _*remoaners*_ to this thread


Another who would tailor the world to suit their own needs and requirements.

Imagine Stocky, you the leader of a group of staunch Brexit Supremacists.

The land you rule is one where those who voted to remain fear to venture out at night lest they be tarred and feathered or found hanging from trees like strange fruit the next morning.
Remainers; the new N*66** of the world.

Yessam!

Nobody knows the trouble I've seen
Nobody knows my sorrow
Nobody knows the trouble I've seen
Glory hallelujah

Sometimes I'm up
Sometimes I'm down
Oh, yes, Lord
Sometimes I'm almost to the groun'
Oh, yes, Lord

Nobody knows the trouble I've seen
Nobody knows my sorrow
Nobody knows the trouble I've seen
Glory hallelujah

Although you see me goin' 'long so
Oh, yes, Lord
I have my trials here below
Oh, yes, Lord

Nobody knows the trouble I've seen
Nobody knows my sorrow
Nobody knows the trouble I've seen
Glory hallelujah

Nobody knows de trouble I seen. (Paul Robeson)


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Remoaners this is why Brexit is the best thing for the UK. *This reporter explains things very well:*
> 
> *Stop complaining about Brexit - the economic benefits will be huge*
> 
> After Brexit the government will have the mandate and resources to reduce the cost of living and escape the grip of the multinationals
> 
> Now the prime minister has set out her agenda for Britain leaving the European Union, it provides an opportunity to turn our minds to what it will take to generate jobs, raise living standards and make Britain an even more prosperous and dynamic economy. In short, to make the UK the best place in which to do business.
> 
> While there has been much hand-wringing and angst about the upcoming negotiations, they pale into insignificance beside the manifest economic benefits that will flow from Brexit - if the government does the right thing. To this end, the government should now plan to ensure the country can take full advantage as soon after Brexit day as possible.
> 
> We should aim to remove tariffs, either unilaterally or through free trade negotiations, thus reducing the cost of food by up to 40%, and the cost of clothing and footwear by up to 20%. With a reduction in other input tariffs, this would be an enormous boost for those "just about managing". It will free up consumer spending, helping inflation and the economy at large. We should compensate business for any tariffs erected through the tax regime, at a cost of less than half of our EU net contribution, and we should have signature-ready trade deals and a deregulation programme prepared for Brexit day. This is work that must start now.
> 
> All the benefits of Brexit are entirely independent from the single market and the customs union, except in so far as membership of these prevents us from crystallising them. There is also a potential and massively important fringe benefit of Brexit, in that the government will now have to do the things that George Osborne failed to deliver and which have been resisted by the City-dominated Treasury for so long.
> 
> We need to rebalance the economy, and from this imperative government no longer has a hiding place. Our new freedom and EU contribution monies mean the government, at last, has the mandate and the resources to support our small and medium-sized exporters, and not be transfixed by the often protectionist multinationals. We must invest in universities and research and development and actually build infrastructure, not just talk about it. Seek the lowest-cost sources of energy rather than burdening consumers with massive bills. Provide non-equity loan capital and finance for entrepreneurs, growing firms and the tech sector, even if it means the City turning a buck less.
> 
> Immigration must be cut, but not at the expense of talent and jobs. Bone fide university students should be assessed for immigration at the point of graduation, not entry - after all, education is a service sector "export" as much as selling Burberry handbags, and creates a network around the world and a pool of talent for business. We want the brightest and the best in this country, alongside investment in the development and training of our young people to ensure they are as employable as possible. It is shameful that we have nearly 600,000 unemployed under-25s.
> 
> And all this is quite apart from the political and constitutional imperative for a clean break: freedom to make our own laws subject to our own courts and with control of our own borders - the very things that define a nation state and for the preservation of which our forebears paid a high price in blood and treasure.
> 
> There are important things that the exit negotiations need to resolve: visas, residency, open skies. But the really important things are not EU trade arrangements - they would be nice to have but are not essential. The real benefits of Brexit will be a considerable chunk of GDP - and that's without including the trade deals we will do with the rest of the world. Additionally, the rebalancing of the economy and making Britain the best place in which to do business will produce a boom in economic growth, investment and trade. By contrast, the cost of not having the trade arrangements with the EU - having tariffs imposed - are minor. Less than half our net contribution.
> 
> And all this is quite apart from the political and constitutional imperative for a clean break: freedom to make our own laws subject to our own courts and with control of our own borders - the very things that define a nation state and for the preservation of which our forebears paid a high price in blood and treasure.
> 
> Certainly we should not spend too much time on fruitless negotiations, we should instead be devoting more energy to looking forward, preparing for our freedom and the opportunity to be a vibrant, free-trading, enterprise nation.
> 
> http://theguardian.com/commentisfre...ing-multinationals?client=ms-android-motorola


That article is one of the best laughs I've had in a long time lol It deserves linking to the 'bad joke thread:Hilarious Do you realise the 'reporter' is non other than - John Longworth - Co-Chair of VOTE LEAVE?

You've gotta read this article about him & odious badger killer Owen Paterson grovelling to German businesses.

Just check this out. Cringe.
*.....-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two leading Brexiters went to Berlin to woo German businesses over Brexit. It didn't go well*

Two leading Brexiters went to Berlin this weekend to woo German businesses in the hope of undercutting Angela Merkel's hostility to Brexit.

But the trip did not go anywhere near as well as they hoped.

Leading it were the Tory MP headbanger *Owen Paterson* (pictured) and *John Longworth*, co-chair of Leave Means Leave.

They came to Berlin to try and get German businesses to lobby Merkel to give Britain a better deal during Brexit negotiations.

Instead they were subjected to sniggers, rolling eyes and sarcastic laughs.

A BBC journalist reports:

The laughter from the audience quickly turned to sniggers as they heard the UK described as "a beacon of open, free trade around the world". […]

*When Europe was blamed for spending cuts and a lack of British health care provision, there were audible mutters of irritation from the audience.*

*The occasional light-hearted attempts at EU-bashing - usually guaranteed to get a cheap laugh with some British audiences - was met with stony silence*. […]

When the audience was asked how many of them welcomed Brexit, only one hand went up - and it turned out that belonged to a businessman who wanted more EU reform and was fed up with Britain slowing things down.

This isn't surprising at all.

In fact, as _Political Scrapbook_ has repeatedly pointed out, German firms aren't dreading Brexit like many the newspapers here think.

In fact they would rather protect the EU Single Market.

Why? Because the EU is a far *bigger market* than the UK, and preserving the EU makes more sense to them, financially and politically.

_Paterson and Longworth's shock at how they were treated shows how delusional they were_



samuelsmiles said:


> Should really have started this in a seperate thread but this does make interesting reading. We really do need to tighten up our laws - hopefully pressure can be put on Leadsom to do so, (although we do actually have some of the strictest laws on ivory trading within the EU.) Prince William was very instrumental in persuading China to implement a total ban so hopefully he will be able to do so for us.
> 
> *In Fighting Illegal Ivory, EU Lags Behind*
> "Unlike Belgium, some EU nations-the Czech Republic, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Sweden, and the * U.K*.-have stopped issuing ivory export certificates and have called on Brussels to make this an EU-wide policy."
> 
> "The fact that some member states are stronger and more committed to the international law as individual nations makes a mockery of the EU," says Stella Reynolds, an international lawyer based in France. According to Reynolds, the European Union was created "to target global industry to ensure future peace and an absence of conflict. So it's incredible," she says, "that the EU is hiding from its responsibility in this modern-day global ivory conflict."


Can you add a link with the date please? As in October last year Green MEP, Keith Taylor, tweeted this -
*

Keith Taylor MEPVerified account* ‏@*GreenKeithMEP* 13 Oct 2016

_Great news! ENVI committee just adopted call for full and immediate EU-wide ban on _*ivory trade*_! __#_*wildlifecrime*

Heres what he said about it - http://www.keithtaylormep.org.uk/20...mmediate-and-full-eu-wide-ban-on-ivory-trade/

If we care about environmental & conservation issues we should use our votes wisely and only vote for politicians who value wildlife & the environment. When we vote for regressive politicians we get regressive policies. I always find out where my representatives stand & such matters.

Anyone who votes for people like these morons are part of the problem.










The UK is the largest exporter of ivory items by number among EU member states @samuelsmiles
http://www.bornfree.org.uk/campaigns/elephants/news/article/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=2403

_
In their 2015 Manifesto, the Conservatives pledged to "continue to lead the world in stopping the poaching that kills thousands of elephants each year" and "press for a total ban on ivory sales". In September 2016, the Government announced that it would consult on plans to ban modern day (post-1947) sales of worked ivory, but excluded any mention of items dated from before 1947. However, hard-hitting BBC1 documentary Saving Africa's Elephants: Hugh and the Ivory War, broadcast in October 2016, uncovered evidence that criminals are exploiting legal loopholes in the UK ivory market by selling illegal ivory as 'antique'. _

_*Worryingly, the UK is the largest exporter of ivory items by number among EU Member States* with declared exports of 25,351 ivory items (54% of the EU total) between 2006-2015, the overwhelming majority (99.8%) of which were described as 'ivory carvings'. The largest proportion of UK exports of ivory items by number were exported to the United States (46.8%), followed by China (28.2%) and Australia (5.6%)._***

_*The UK is also lagging behind other international players in its failure to take measures to enact a total ban.* The United States of America announced a near total ban on commercial ivory trade in July 2016, and last month China, the world's largest ivory market, unveiled plans to stop all commercial processing and sale of ivory by 31 March 2017, and to completely shut down its domestic ivory market by the end of 2017_.

Absolutely indefensible. Makes me so ashamed & angry to think my country is hastening the extinction of these wonderful creatures 



rona said:


> I'd rather not. As far as I'm concerned it's done, just waiting for the dust to settle and it all be sorted.
> I just can't believe the propaganda and twisting of facts from some of the UK haters on here


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So last time I asked this Stockwellcat you didn't answer. How would open border between NI and Ireland work when you would need customs checks. If for no other reason to prevent exploitation of any trading deal made between the UK and another party? How could open borders work considering Ireland will retain EU free movement. Fly in, cross the border? If you have checks, who is going to pay for them?


You don't get it do you @Goblin.
Yes the UK can leave the EU and still have an open border with the Republic of Ireland. How this works is like this The UK have an agreement that has been in place with the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland since 1923 it's called the Common Travel Area (CTA). The Common Travel Area will not be affected by Brexit but will need to be discussed to see if the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland wish to keep it. The Common Travel Area agreement has been in affect well before the EU or EEC ever existed. The Common Travel Area allows free movement of goods, people and services between Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales, Channel Islands and Isle of Man to the Republic of Ireland and vise versa. It says within the EU treaties parts 19, 20 and 21 that this agreement is separate from the EU because the UK and Ireland as a whole are not in the Schegen Zone so Schegen Zone rules do not apply. It also says in the EU treaties that because this agreement is separate it will not be affected by any EU treaty changes or any Brexit negotiations. It is an agreement with the UK and the Republic of Ireland. It maybe renegotiate but that's all. EU Schegen Zone rules do not apply to this agreement. This agreement is for the UK and Ireland to discuss. A hard border won't happen because both sides of the border in Ireland have said they don't want this and return to the past.

The Common Travel Area is a free tariff zone @Goblin and neither Northern Ireland or the Republic or the UK have any intention of getting rid of it. So I don't know why you think they will.

Anymore questions you want to resurrect?


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> The Common Travel Area agreement has been in affect well before the EU or EEC ever existed


Before Ireland had free movement of people within the EU then. How's that going to work?


----------



## stockwellcat.

The remoaners keyboard warriors were out last night on here.

I give up with there sillyness


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Before Ireland had free movement of people within the EU then. How's that going to work?


Read your history.

Before the CTA the EU did not exist nor did the EEC.

CTA became law 1923.

EU came into existence 1993 and it was agreed that Ireland and UK can keep the CTA agreement.

CTA is a separate deal from the EU that the EU said they can't interfer with. Read sections 19, 20, 21 of the EU treaties.

CTA predates the EU treaties.


----------



## havoc

All of the above is true but the question was with particular reference to controlling immigration. An open border with a country which has open borders with countries we're trying to restrict movement from can't work. It has to become a back door.

eta If we had a land border with France would you suggest the same arrangement? It isn't 1923 and Ireland is just another independent EU country now, not a patch of land we can't get over having given up.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> The remoaners keyboard warriors were out last night on here.
> 
> I give up with there sillyness


I found some interesting reads for you brexiteers:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> I thought the current NI problems were due to the heating scandal and McGuinness resigning not Brexit?


 Sorry I meant the crisis thats happening now that forced an election isn't due to Brexit .


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> That article is one of the best laughs I've had in a long time lol It deserves linking to the 'bad joke thread:Hilarious Do you realise the 'reporter' is non other than - John Longworth - Co-Chair of VOTE LEAVE?
> 
> You've gotta read this article about him & odious badger killer Owen Paterson grovelling to German businesses.
> 
> Just check this out. Cringe.
> *.....-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Two leading Brexiters went to Berlin to woo German businesses over Brexit. It didn't go well*
> 
> Two leading Brexiters went to Berlin this weekend to woo German businesses in the hope of undercutting Angela Merkel's hostility to Brexit.
> 
> But the trip did not go anywhere near as well as they hoped.
> 
> Leading it were the Tory MP headbanger *Owen Paterson* (pictured) and *John Longworth*, co-chair of Leave Means Leave.
> 
> They came to Berlin to try and get German businesses to lobby Merkel to give Britain a better deal during Brexit negotiations.
> 
> Instead they were subjected to sniggers, rolling eyes and sarcastic laughs.
> 
> A BBC journalist reports:
> 
> The laughter from the audience quickly turned to sniggers as they heard the UK described as "a beacon of open, free trade around the world". […]
> 
> *When Europe was blamed for spending cuts and a lack of British health care provision, there were audible mutters of irritation from the audience.*
> 
> *The occasional light-hearted attempts at EU-bashing - usually guaranteed to get a cheap laugh with some British audiences - was met with stony silence*. […]
> 
> When the audience was asked how many of them welcomed Brexit, only one hand went up - and it turned out that belonged to a businessman who wanted more EU reform and was fed up with Britain slowing things down.
> 
> This isn't surprising at all.
> 
> In fact, as _Political Scrapbook_ has repeatedly pointed out, German firms aren't dreading Brexit like many the newspapers here think.
> 
> In fact they would rather protect the EU Single Market.
> 
> Why? Because the EU is a far *bigger market* than the UK, and preserving the EU makes more sense to them, financially and politically.
> 
> _Paterson and Longworth's shock at how they were treated shows how delusional they were_
> 
> Can you add a link with the date please? As in October last year Green MEP, Keith Taylor, tweeted this -
> *
> 
> Keith Taylor MEPVerified account* ‏@*GreenKeithMEP* 13 Oct 2016
> 
> _Great news! ENVI committee just adopted call for full and immediate EU-wide ban on _*ivory trade*_! __#_*wildlifecrime*
> 
> Heres what he said about it - http://www.keithtaylormep.org.uk/20...mmediate-and-full-eu-wide-ban-on-ivory-trade/
> 
> If we care about environmental & conservation issues we should use our votes wisely and only vote for politicians who value wildlife & the environment. When we vote for regressive politicians we get regressive policies. I always find out where my representatives stand & such matters.
> 
> Anyone who votes for people like these morons are part of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The UK is the largest exporter of ivory items by number among EU member states @samuelsmiles
> http://www.bornfree.org.uk/campaigns/elephants/news/article/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=2403
> 
> _
> In their 2015 Manifesto, the Conservatives pledged to "continue to lead the world in stopping the poaching that kills thousands of elephants each year" and "press for a total ban on ivory sales". In September 2016, the Government announced that it would consult on plans to ban modern day (post-1947) sales of worked ivory, but excluded any mention of items dated from before 1947. However, hard-hitting BBC1 documentary Saving Africa's Elephants: Hugh and the Ivory War, broadcast in October 2016, uncovered evidence that criminals are exploiting legal loopholes in the UK ivory market by selling illegal ivory as 'antique'. _
> 
> _*Worryingly, the UK is the largest exporter of ivory items by number among EU Member States* with declared exports of 25,351 ivory items (54% of the EU total) between 2006-2015, the overwhelming majority (99.8%) of which were described as 'ivory carvings'. The largest proportion of UK exports of ivory items by number were exported to the United States (46.8%), followed by China (28.2%) and Australia (5.6%)._***
> 
> _*The UK is also lagging behind other international players in its failure to take measures to enact a total ban.* The United States of America announced a near total ban on commercial ivory trade in July 2016, and last month China, the world's largest ivory market, unveiled plans to stop all commercial processing and sale of ivory by 31 March 2017, and to completely shut down its domestic ivory market by the end of 2017_.
> 
> Absolutely indefensible. Makes me so ashamed & angry to think my country is hastening the extinction of these wonderful creatures
> 
> View attachment 298293


I think there is a reply to one of my posts here. It's a bit difficult to find in amongst all the pictures, links, huge letters, bolded letters and other bits and pieces though. Big letters and stuff don't make points more valid, however.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> I found some interesting reads for you brexiteers:Hilarious


Thought that would be right up your street, Noush . No cars , no electric , no Global warning !


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> A hard border won't happen because both sides of the border in Ireland have said they don't want this


Still waiting for an explanation - no hard border means no immigration control so how will that work?


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> It isn't 1923 and Ireland is just another independent EU country now, not a patch of land we can't get over having given up.


Here is a brief history on the Common Travel Area (CTA) 1923 Agreement which was suspended in 1939 due to the outbreak of WW2 and reinstated in 1952:

*1923 agreement*
The Irish Free State seceded from the United Kingdom in 1922 at a time when systematic passport and immigration controls were becoming standard at international frontiers. Although the British had imposed entry controls in the past - notably during the French Revolution - the imposition of such controls in the 20th century dated from the Aliens Act 1905, before which there was a system of registration for arriving foreigners.
Before the creation of the Irish Free State, British immigration law applied in Ireland as part of the United Kingdom. With the imminent prospect of Irish independence in 1922, the British Home Office was disinclined to impose passport and immigration controls between the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland, which would have meant patrolling a porous and meandering 499 km (310 mi) long land border. If, however, the pre-1922 situation were to be continued, the Irish immigration authorities would have to continue to enforce British immigration policy after independence. The Irish Department for Home Affairs was found to be receptive to continuing with the _status quo_ and an informal agreement to this effect was reached in February 1923: each side would enforce the other's immigration decisions and the Irish authorities would be provided with a copy of Britain's suspect-codex (or 'Black Book') of any personae non gratae in the United Kingdom.

The agreement was provided for in UK law by deeming the Irish Free State to be part of the United Kingdom for the purposes of immigration law. It was fully implemented in 1925 when legislation passed in both countries provided for the recognition of the other's landing conditions for foreigners. This may be considered to have been the high point of the CTA - although it was not called that at the time - as it almost amounted to a common immigration area. A foreigner who had been admitted to one state could, unless his or her admission had been conditional upon not entering the other state, travel to the other with only minimal bureaucratic requirements.

The CTA was suspended on the outbreak of war in 1939, and travel restrictions were introduced between the islands of Great Britain and Ireland. This meant that travel restrictions even applied to people travelling within the UK if they were travelling from Northern Ireland to elsewhere in the UK.

*1952 agreement*
After the war, the Irish re-instated their previous provisions allowing free movement but the British declined to do so pending the agreement of a "similar immigration policy" in both countries. Consequently, the British maintained immigration controls between the islands of Ireland and Great Britain until 1952, to the consternation of Northern Ireland's Unionist population.

No agreement on a similar immigration policy was publicised at the time, but a year after the Irish Minister for Justice referred to the lifting of immigration controls between the two islands as "a matter for the British themselves", the British began referring to the CTA in legislation for the first time. The content of the agreement appears to be that a foreigner would be refused entry to the United Kingdom if they wished to travel onward to Ireland (and vice versa) and is provided for in relevant immigration law.

The CTA has meant that Ireland has been required to follow changes in British immigration policy. This was notable in 1962 when Irish law was changed in response to the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1962, which imposed immigration controls between the United Kingdom and Commonwealth countries, while in Ireland the _Aliens Order 1962_ replaced the state's previous provision exempting all British subjects from immigration control, with one exempting only those born in the United Kingdom. The scope of the Irish provision was much more restrictive than the British legislation as it excluded from immigration control only those British citizens born in the United Kingdom, and imposed immigration controls on those born outside the UK. The latter group would have included individuals who were British citizens by descent or by birth in a British colony. This discrepancy between Britain's and Ireland's definition of a British citizen was not resolved until 1999.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Still waiting for an explanation - no hard border means no immigration control so how will that work?


That my dear is something for the Irish and UK Governments to sort out isn't it.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> I think there is a reply to one of my posts here. It's a bit difficult to find in amongst all the pictures, links, huge letters, bolded letters and other bits and pieces though. Big letters and stuff don't make points more valid, however.


No but facts make points more valid. Your posts are out dated.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I found some interesting reads for you brexiteers:Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 298425
> 
> 
> View attachment 298426


Absolutely brilliant!

Having a lovely time here, a nice place to consider retiring to which may now not be possible. I mean decent red wine for 0,99€ a bottle?! I'm out on the balcony in my T shirt!

Shame, I doubt the EU will grant visas to those that want to retire. We'll all be stuck in the UK. We'll somehow cope with the cold once the winter fuel allowance is scrapped and energy costs to benefit the Chinese economy become more costly than ever.

We'll be told to wrap up warm and wear wooly hats again....

Is Britain really that great? Think about it. What gives any country the right to consider they're superior to others?


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> That my dear is something for the Irish and UK Governments to sort out isn't it.


So you have no answer and have to resort to condescension as your only response


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> So you have no answer and have to resort to condescension as your only response


No disrespect. If you read through this thread this topic has been resurrected again as it has already been discussed.

@kimthecat and I were in all fairness talking about something else eg the elections in Northern Ireland and I highlighted the history of the problems Northern Irish political parties have had in the past and then this decended again from other members into Ireland's border issues a topic that has already been discussed and put to bed.

The Irish Border issues with respect is a topic for the UK Government to sort with Ireland through CTA agreement. We won't know what will happen until it has been negotiated and agreed upon by the relevant Governments. This is totally separate from the EU agreements as well like our bilateral agreement with France.


----------



## noushka05

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...ess-to-secure-dups-brexit-votes-35356737.html

If this is true it once again shows how far May will stoop to get her way.

*Theresa May 'risking Northern Irish peace process to secure DUP's Brexit votes'*
*Naomi Long warns locals fear PM could be placating Democratic Unionists in order to keep backbenchers onside to approve Brexit plans*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...ess-to-secure-dups-brexit-votes-35356737.html
> 
> If this is true it once again shows how far May will stoop to get her way.
> 
> *Theresa May 'risking Northern Irish peace process to secure DUP's Brexit votes'*
> *Naomi Long warns locals fear PM could be placating Democratic Unionists in order to keep backbenchers onside to approve Brexit plans*


Try reading Irish Times as they have a total different view on things and the Irish Telegraph.

Again noushka05 newspapers like to stir and the majority of the time this news is rubbished later on and that is why TM said in her speech last week that this needs to stop if the UK wants to get a good deal with the EU. It's deliberate stirring newspapers are doing. This kind of rubbish is dangerous with how fragile the peace process is in Northern Ireland as well.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Again noushka05 *newspapers like to stir* and the majority of the time this news is rubbished later on and that is why TM said in her speech last week that this needs to stop if the UK wants to get a good deal with the EU. It's deliberate stirring newspapers are doing. This kind of rubbish is dangerous with how fragile the peace process is in Northern Ireland as well.


Indeed - who do you think organised Brexit?


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles said:


> Big letters and stuff don't make points more valid


@samuelmiles: for some posters, ''big letters and stuff'' is the scriptorial version of shouting at the top of one's voice!! (If I write my posts large enough, no-one can possibly miss them.) I avoid them like the plague.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Indeed - who do you think organised Brexit?


No the news didn't do that. Most brexitiers voted leave because they said they always would. You want to believe the press organised it but it didnt  and to suggest it did is quite an insult.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> it offended people


 @ stockwellcat: Which people I wonder?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> No the news didn't do that. Most brexitiers voted leave because they said they always would. You want to believe the press organised it but it didnt  and to suggest it did is quite an insult.


Ah, so you _haven't_ got me on ignore 

You need to stop taking things so personally, chuck. You as an individual may not have been swayed by national newspapers, and done and independently verified and crosschecked all your own research, but I would suggest that places you at the far end of the bell curve. 

Therefore it is pertinent to consider _why_ so many people say they 'always would' and _who _influenced their viewpoints.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Indeed - who do you think organised Brexit?


Absolutely right. Who do you think put May in as PM, who do you think she's taking orders from?

I think she's aware of how newspapers make and break people. Major, Blair and Cameron experienced it. She better do as she's told then hasn't she?

So to get the country back means answering to a newspaper tycoon who isn't even British.

Oh the irony.........


----------



## KittenKong

A bit of satire for you, but I wouldn't put it passed them. No doubt their loyal readers will comply:

"The Son says,
LETS UNLEASH THE BULLDOGS!

This is a symbol of a remoaner:









Remoaners HATE BRITAIN.

Your number one Son urges its readers to cover up these anti British symbols on their car number plates as a matter of urgency using the enclosed Son badged patriotic stickers to show you're with Britain.

REPORT A REMOANER!
The Son asks its readers to photograph any hostile number plates and submit them free of charge to 800 1111111 or Freetext Son.

Using our exclusive access to DVLA records we'll name and shame these British hating Remoaners with their photos and names and addresses.

DO YOU KNOW A REMOANER?
Let us know free of charge at the numbers above, alternatively Email us at sonreportaremoaner"


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> _who _influenced their viewpoints


Interests me - if it wasn't from the media where were they getting their information from? They hotly deny being influenced by slogans on the side of a bus and know the official party lines must be biased so what's left?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Shame, I doubt the EU will grant visas to those that want to retire. We'll all be stuck in the UK. We'll somehow cope with the cold once the winter fuel allowance is scrapped and energy costs to benefit the Chinese economy become more costly than ever.
> 
> We'll be told to wrap up warm and wear wooly hats again....
> 
> Is Britain really that great? Think about it. What gives any country the right to consider they're superior to others?


Wouldn't it be up to the countries involved to grant the visas ? I think the countries would do what benefits them financially , at one time retired folk would spend the winter in Spanish hotels that would other wise be half empty so it benefited both parties.

I really hope it won't be the case that you cannot have your dream retirement .

Not wanting to be apart of something doesn't mean to say you think you're superior , there will always be those who think they are superior and always be countries who think they are superior to other countries.

I'm happy to live in the UK , I like the changing weather , its boring if the weathers always the same , the beautiful scenery . I would've liked to have traveled more countries but either luck of funds or bad health have limited me . Ive never been to Spain and I wouldnt go due to bull fighting .


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

OMG I haven't bothered coming on this thread for ages and can't get over that a Page 208 the same old argument is going round and round. Anyone who voted to leave is brainwashed and is quite incapable of making up their own minds :Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely right. Who do you think put May in as PM, who do you think she's taking orders from?
> 
> I think she's aware of how newspapers make and break people. Major, Blair and Cameron experienced it. She better do as she's told then hasn't she?
> 
> So to get the country back means answering to a newspaper tycoon who isn't even British.
> 
> Oh the irony.........


 If he was that powerful how come Corbyn is still the leader of the opposition . There's no love lost there!


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> Interests me - if it wasn't from the media where were they getting their information from? They hotly deny being influenced by slogans on the side of a bus and know the official party lines must be biased so what's left?


Where did the Remainers get their info from ? The media ? None of the Remain papers were biased nor were they influenced by project Fear ?


----------



## kimthecat

rottiepointerhouse said:


> OMG I haven't bothered coming on this thread for ages and can't get over that a Page 208 the same old argument is going round and round. Anyone who voted to leave is brainwashed and is quite incapable of making up their own minds :Hilarious:Hilarious


I don't even know why I'm still here . It passes the time and takes my mind off stuff I suppose.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I'd rather not. As far as I'm concerned it's done, just waiting for the dust to settle and it all be sorted.
> I just can't believe the propaganda and twisting of facts from some of the UK haters on here


Am I UK hater? It is my him and my children's future?
Think Brexit will make it much worse.
Same you can say about those Germans who object to Hitler or Americans who object to Trump. Obviously Anerica haters them all. I am disappointed in you.
Brexit will ruin Britain and affect really badly countryside,the environmental issues!So Brexit supported must really hate nature.
Looks like Trump, whom Brexit gave a leg up , already pushed the pipelines ...Free movements protesting...
So you think those people hate America?

I think Brexit is really, really dangerous for Britain, for EU ( which is not a good thing) and for the world ( Brexit and Putin helping Trump into power...).

Wish I were wrong.
Just facts :


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> Interests me - if it wasn't from the media where were they getting their information from? They hotly deny being influenced by slogans on the side of a bus and know the official party lines must be biased so what's left?


From living in the UK from before and since we joined


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> OMG I haven't bothered coming on this thread for ages and can't get over that a Page 208 the same old argument is going round and round. Anyone who voted to leave is brainwashed and is quite incapable of making up their own minds :Hilarious:Hilarious


Acknowledged. In the same sense I didn't need the media nor a lousy remain campaign to decide my vote.

History will tell you The Sun influences many of it's readers. I knew Leave would win as soon as the paper backed it.

Yes we refer to the media, but from a trusted source (Guardian and Independent in my case) but wouldn't expect some here to appreciate these papers.

If you haven't already it's worth looking at the two Brexit threads on the Sabre site (links provided earlier). Very much the same as this one with one thing in common:

Not the most passionate of Brexiteers can report true advantages to leaving. It's as if they'll accept second best to staying in the EU just to get out.

As time has gone on Brexit "positivity" except in certain papers has diminished. Instead those like myself who are strongly anti Brexit are accused of hating Britain!

If I hated Britain I wouldn't want what's best for the country which is to remain in the EU and write off this referendum nonsense. Alternatively seek for a Norway type EEA arrangement which will preserve our rights to free movement and of course the all important single market.

I wonder how Mrs Thatcher would've reacted to the UK withdrawing from the single market..


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> If he was that powerful how come Corbyn is still the leader of the opposition . There's no love lost there!


Yes indeed but imagine if Mr M actually liked Corbyn? He would be Prime Minister now!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed but imagine if Mr M actually liked Corbyn? He would be Prime Minister now!


 Phew ! 
The next general election is going to be fun !


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> History will tell you The Sun influences many of it's readers. I knew Leave would win as soon as the paper backed it.


the Sun is only read by about 1million people each day, that online and in print. What influenced the other few million voters?


----------



## kimthecat

talking of papers , apparently the Guardian is in financial trouble though that was in the DM so perhaps its wishful thinking 

ETA http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4154314/Hold-page-Guardian-turn-tabloid.html


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> Where did the Remainers get their info from ? The media ? None of the Remain papers were biased nor were they influenced by project Fear ?


That's not what I said. I asked where this source of information was if it wasn't the media. You'll note I referred to official party line*s* not line.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> You don't get it do you @Goblin.


I get that I asked a simple question. How can you have an open border and control goods and people?



stockwellcat said:


> The remoaners keyboard warriors were out last night on here, I give up with there sillyness


You always do but then you frequently can't answer simple questions. Oh dear.. back to remoaners.



stockwellcat said:


> That my dear is something for the Irish and UK Governments to sort out isn't it.


You voted out when you don't know the answers and simply expect it to be sorted out.. okay.



stockwellcat said:


> No disrespect. If you read through this thread this topic has been resurrected again as it has already been discussed.


Raised but not discussed, still waiting an answer other than "sorted by magic".

@kimthecat and I were in all fairness talking about something else eg the elections in Northern Ireland and I highlighted the history of the problems Northern Irish political parties have had in the past and then this decended again from other members into Ireland's border issues a topic that has already been discussed and put to bed[/quote]
I realise simply leaving questions unanswered may be considered by some to be putting it to bed but don't you think these are questions which need to be answered before things are non-reversible?



> The Irish Border issues with respect is a topic for the UK Government to sort with Ireland through CTA agreement.


Sorry but you don't know the answer either yet are prepared to leave regardless. It will not be down to the Irish government and the UK government as it's an EU issue. Remember that little bit of legislation that the EU members cannot negotiate on their own? It's not totally separate as it's part of the process. In fact May has already highlighted it.



stockwellcat said:


> No the news didn't do that. Most brexitiers voted leave because they said they always would. You want to believe the press organised it but it didnt  and to suggest it did is quite an insult.


How come you can only come up with the arguments the papers push?



kimthecat said:


> Where did the Remainers get their info from ? The media ? None of the Remain papers were biased nor were they influenced by project Fear ?


Actually many looked into things like the majority of expert opinions. You know the ones Gove said "we've had enough of" and you should listen to our lies instead.

Oh look expert opinion: http://www.iiea.com/ftp/Publications/IIEA_Policy Brief - Northern Ireland Border Brexit_2016.pdf


----------



## kimthecat

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> From living in the UK from before and since we joined


Nostalgia. You may as well say British Empire. World has changed. Globalisation. Overpopulation. Climate change.
That is not time to build walls and pretend it has nothing to do with us.
All free world should pull together.
Trump is a big threat to the world peace and stability. I am most ashamed seeing Britain as his sidekick.
While he is well connected to Kremlin.
Brexit only served Trump and Putin.
It might benefit few but it overall be really disastrous...
Deals? They will be not more beneficial than those we have already.
India wants working visas.Australia wants free movement...and so will the rest...
Explain what is the point of closing borders for EU to open it for non-EU?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Acknowledged. In the same sense I didn't need the media nor a lousy remain campaign to decide my vote.
> 
> History will tell you The Sun influences many of it's readers. I knew Leave would win as soon as the paper backed it.
> 
> Yes we refer to the media, but from a trusted source (Guardian and Independent in my case) but wouldn't expect some here to appreciate these papers.
> 
> If you haven't already it's worth looking at the two Brexit threads on the Sabre site (links provided earlier). Very much the same as this one with one thing in common:
> 
> Not the most passionate of Brexiteers can report true advantages to leaving. It's as if they'll accept second best to staying in the EU just to get out.
> 
> As time has gone on Brexit "positivity" except in certain papers has diminished. Instead those like myself who are strongly anti Brexit are accused of hating Britain!
> 
> If I hated Britain I wouldn't want what's best for the country which is to remain in the EU and write off this referendum nonsense. Alternatively seek for a Norway type EEA arrangement which will preserve our rights to free movement and of course the all important single market.
> 
> I wonder how Mrs Thatcher would've reacted to the UK withdrawing from the single market..


I'll give it a miss thanks, one thing I have learnt in life is not to bother wasting my time going round and round and round in circles. You believe that your media is a trusted source and that you (in general) were not brainwashed and that everyone who voted to leave reads The Sun and was. For the record I have never read one issue of the The Sun and still have my own mind which is just as capable of free and analytical thought as yours. See you in another 209 pages when I have no doubt the same arguments will be being regurgitated :Bored


----------



## havoc

Goblin said:


> I get that I asked a simple question. How can you have an open border and control goods and people?


The real answer Goblin is that the UK would like Ireland to police it to our satisfaction at their points of entry and there have already been talks to this effect but Ireland has said that any such agreement would need to be approved by all other EU member countries. That's where we are currently and it takes one sentence to say so


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Havoc:

... what's left?

/QUOTE
.
.
spontaneous combustion?
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> the Sun is only read by about 1million people each day, that online and in print. What influenced the other few million voters?


Are you sure this is correct? The Sun and the News of the World (now relaunched as the Sun on Sunday) are the UK's biggest selling papers.

Then add the Star, Mail and Express to the total readership, comes to much more than the million!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I get that I asked a simple question. How can you have an open border and control goods and people?
> 
> You always do but then you frequently can't answer simple questions. Oh dear.. back to remoaners.
> 
> You voted out when you don't know the answers and simply expect it to be sorted out.. okay.
> 
> Raised but not discussed, still waiting an answer other than "sorted by magic".
> 
> @kimthecat and I were in all fairness talking about something else eg the elections in Northern Ireland and I highlighted the history of the problems Northern Irish political parties have had in the past and then this decended again from other members into Ireland's border issues a topic that has already been discussed and put to bed





> I realise simply leaving questions unanswered may be considered by some to be putting it to bed but don't you think these are questions which need to be answered before things are non-reversible?
> 
> Sorry but you don't know the answer either yet are prepared to leave regardless. It will not be down to the Irish government and the UK government as it's an EU issue. Remember that little bit of legislation that the EU members cannot negotiate on their own? It's not totally separate as it's part of the process. In fact May has already highlighted it.
> 
> How come you can only come up with the arguments the papers push?
> 
> Actually many looked into things like the majority of expert opinions. You know the ones Gove said "we've had enough of" and you should listen to our lies instead.
> 
> Oh look expert opinion: http://www.iiea.com/ftp/Publications/IIEA_Policy Brief - Northern Ireland Border Brexit_2016.pdf


Damn right I voted out and I know that frustrates you immensely.

You will find if you educate yourself @Goblin the CTA is totally separate from the EU treaties. If you read into EU treaties from the very beginning the UK and Ireland are not tied to the Schegen Zone simply because the UK and Ireland aren't attached to that huge Continent called Europe. The CTA was allowed as a separate agreement which the EU agreed in protocols 19, 20 and 21 of there treaties for the UK and Ireland to decide upon if they wished to negotiate any changes. Look into it, get your facts right and then come back to me ok.

Now kindly go and pick on someone else.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Are you sure this is correct? The Sun and the News of the World (now renamed the Sun on Sunday) are the UK's biggest selling papers.
> 
> Then add the Star, Mail and Express to the total readership, comes to much more than the million!


Add the buses. The " elderly lady in hospital" adverts...

The naked truth is pound was worth about 1.50 dollar, now is worth about 1.20 dollar.
Banks are preparing Brexodus.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Have a read @Goblin it may take sometime as this is an extensive document on CTA and the Irish Border:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/brexit-briefing-impact-on-common-travel-area-and-the-irish/

It mentions protocols 19, 20 and 21 of the EU treaty.

In this context, the term 'common travel area' refers to administrative arrangements providing a special immigration control regime as between the UK and the Republic of Ireland.[ii] Arrangements of this kind have been in place for the most of the period since the Irish Free State was established in 1922.[iii] In practice, the aims of these arrangements have been to ensure relative freedom of movement between the two states, and to establish forms of co-operation between the two states' immigration authorities.

The primary explanation for the durability of these arrangements has been the assumption of the UK authorities that it is impractical for the Irish border to be an immigration frontier.[iv] One result has been support by Northern Irish unionists for the common travel area, in order to avoid immigration control on journeys between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.[v]

The many social and economic connections between the Republic of Ireland and all parts of the UK are a second factor pointing towards relative freedom of movement between the two states. This aspect of the common travel area is generally favoured by the Irish Government. It also appeals to nationalist opinion in Northern Ireland, which supports any lessening of the _de facto _consequences of the partition of the island of Ireland.

A third factor underlying common travel area arrangements is that these favour the free movement of labour. For most of the period since 1922, that meant movement of Irish workers to Great Britain. With greater economic development in the Republic of Ireland since the mid-1990s, the pattern has been more varied, with movement in both directions.

*Current arrangements*
The legal framework relating to the common travel area is quite different in the two states.

In _UK law_, by virtue of section 1(3) of the Immigration Act 1971, immigration control does not apply to persons arriving from the Republic of Ireland. Persons arriving from the Republic of Ireland have leave to enter automatically, subject to the provisions of the Immigration (Control of Entry through Republic of Ireland) Order 1972. Article 3 of the 1972 Order excludes several categories of person from the benefit of section 1(3), including visa nationals not in possession of a visa. Article 4 of the Order deems certain other persons to have leave only for three months, including persons whose nationality means that they do not require visas.

Of particular significance is an exemption within Article 4 to these deemed leave arrangements. In its original version, Article 4 of the 1972 Order exempted _Irish_ citizens alone. That provision was however replaced in 2014 by an exemption for EEA/ Swiss nationals and their family members who have a right to enter deriving from EU free movement law.

Under _Irish immigration law_, everyone who is not an Irish or a British citizen is classed as a 'non-national'.[vi] Under the Immigration Act 2004, immigration controls apply automatically to all 'non-nationals' who arrive from the UK by air or sea, and _may_ be imposed upon 'non-nationals' who arrive by land from Northern Ireland. Individuals who arrive by land must obtain immigration permission to be in the state within one month. This framework is however to be read with the EU free movement of persons rules, which confer rights of entry and residence upon EEA/Swiss nationals and family members.

The two states' authorities have long co-operated in immigration control in practice. One area where extensive co-operation is evident concerns the list of states whose nationals require a visa to enter: currently, 103 states are subject to visa requirements in both states, seven in the UK alone, and seven in the Republic of Ireland alone. A more recent development saw the launching in October 2014 of a joint British-Irish visa, which allows nationals of China and India to visit both states for up to three months, on the basis of a visa issued by either state. There is also co-operation to ensure that individuals cannot use one state as a back door to the other. That is linked in turn to provision in the immigration law of each state for entry to be denied to a person who intends to travel to the other, but who would not be admitted there.

At the EU level, these arrangements between the UK and Republic of Ireland are reflected in three Protocols annexed to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU.* Protocol 19, which is concerned with the Schengen open borders zone, provides that the Republic of Ireland and the UK are not automatically covered by Schengen rules, or by proposals to develop them.* *Protocol 20 allows the UK and Republic of Ireland to 'continue to make arrangements between themselves relating to the movement of persons between their territories ('the Common Travel Area')'. Protocol 21 provides that each of the UK and the Republic of Ireland may unilaterally choose to opt in to immigration or asylum legislation other than Schengen rules, or to discussion of proposals relating to such legislation.*

*Implications of withdrawal*
*In the event of UK decision to withdraw, it is to be presumed that the underlying reasons for the common travel area would continue to apply. The political consensus in support of the common travel area in Northern Ireland would probably be an especially significant factor.[vii]

Continuing with common travel area arrangements also appears to be compatible with EU law. There is no obvious legal reason why the Republic of Ireland should not retain the benefit of Protocols 19 and 20 after UK exit, allowing it to maintain special co-operation arrangements with the UK outside the Schengen zone.*

After a UK decision to withdraw, reform of common travel arrangements might nevertheless be considered. In the words of the Government's March 2016 document _Alternatives to Membership _'It is not clear that the Common Travel Area could continue to operate with the UK outside the EU, and Ireland inside, in the same way that it did before both countries joined the EU in 1973.'[viii]

One contextual factor would be the possible emergence of customs checks on goods moving between the two states. In the event of a UK withdrawal, much would depend on the terms of its subsequent relationship to the EU. To the extent that customs checks applied to goods moving across the border on the island of Ireland, or to traffic between the Republic of Ireland and Great Britain, there would be pressure for controls on the movement of persons as well.

Three specific factors in the immigration policy field that point towards reform of common travel area arrangements may also be suggested.

_The need to amend UK legislation in any event. _If the UK left the EU, an amendment to Article 4 of the 1972 Order (above) would be required in any event. The 1972 Order currently contains an exemption for all those with rights deriving from EU free movement law in the UK, something which would make no sense in the event of withdrawal. Would an exemption for Irish citizens alone be restored? For reasons explained in section 2 (below), that question would probably be linked to a wider set of issues about the status of Irish citizens in UK immigration law.

I have nothing further to say to you @Goblin and that is it ok. Don't bother trying to pick on me ok.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The CTA was allowed as a separate agreement which the EU agreed in protocols 19, 20 and 21 of there treaties for the UK and Ireland to decide upon if they wished to negotiate any changes. Look into it, get your facts right and then come back to me ok.


Oh dear, if you educate yourself CTA is unlikely to survive, at least in it's current form. You cannot have free movement and restricted movement at the same time.



> Now kindly go and pick on someone else.


Strange how I've never picked on you. I've responded to what you have said but don't make it personal. Can you say the same?



stockwellcat said:


> Have a read @Goblin it may take sometime as this is an extensive document on CTA and the Irish Border:
> _...
> The need to amend UK legislation in any event. _If the UK left the EU, an amendment to Article 4 of the 1972 Order (above) would be required in any event. The 1972 Order currently contains an exemption for all those with rights deriving from EU free movement law in the UK, something which would make no sense in the event of withdrawal. Would an exemption for Irish citizens alone be restored? For reasons explained in section 2 (below), that question would probably be linked to a wider set of issues about the status of Irish citizens in UK immigration law.
> ...


So things will change and nobody knows is now the answer. Aren't these niggly bits really important for the future of the country?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So things will change and nobody knows is now your answer. Aren't these niggly bits really important for the future of the country?


* Protocol 19, which is concerned with the Schengen open borders zone, provides that the Republic of Ireland and the UK are not automatically covered by Schengen rules, or by proposals to develop them.

Protocol 20 allows the UK and Republic of Ireland to 'continue to make arrangements between themselves relating to the movement of persons between their territories ('the Common Travel Area')'.

Protocol 21 provides that each of the UK and the Republic of Ireland may unilaterally choose to opt in to immigration or asylum legislation other than Schengen rules, or to discussion of proposals relating to such legislation.*


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> *blah blah*


Which doesn't negate the other information you yourself posted on the fact that changes will be needed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Today Theresa May has said a white paper is going to be given to ministers and a bill/legislation will be given to Parliament tomorrow or Friday. So everything is above board and legal.

I am pleased she is doing this so Parliamentary Sovereignty is given in this matter and the remainers then can't say it wasn't done after the UK leaves the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Which doesn't negate the other information you yourself posted on the fact that changes will be needed.


Yeah you do blah blah @Goblin don't we know it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Which doesn't negate the other information you yourself posted on the fact that changes will be needed.


----------



## Goblin

Well that says a so much about leave voters doesn't it


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Well that says a so much about leave voters doesn't it


No, just one.
I think this is where you are going wrong. You seem to think that there is only one explanation when in fact there are thousands, probably millions

Personally, I like the humour


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Well that says a so much about leave voters doesn't it


You seem to looking for one straight forward answer on every question you ask, guess what there isn't one straight forward answer there's probably hundreds of thousands of different answers to just one of the questions you ask. But you don't like the answers people give you.

The UK isn't being dragged out of the EU. Over 17.4 million people voted to leave and Parliament is getting a say on it as well. Like it or not there is only one direction this is going and that is the UK leaves the EU.

I just hope now Parliament and Government can get on with what they need to do to make this happen.

You say things change and they have:
- Parliament are getting a vote on a bill to be presented in the next two days.
- MPs are getting a White Paper on the Governments plans.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I think this is where you are going wrong. You seem to think that there is only one explanation when in fact there are thousands, probably millions


Oh I know there are multitudes of reasons. The ones given can be summed up by believe lies, xenophobia or nationalistic.



stockwellcat said:


> You seem to looking for one straight forward answer on every question you ask


Simply asking for a coherant one, one where your own linked articles don't actually contradict what you are saying.



> The UK isn't being dragged out of the EU. Over 17.4 million people voted to leave


Out of a population of 65 million. Good thing about democracy you should embrace.. people can campaign and change parliament and government direction, especially over a couple of years.



> MPs are getting a White Paper on the Governments plans.


Oh more wishful bullet points rather than achieveable plans.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Oh more wishful bullet points rather than achieveable plans.


Well that's where MPs can ask for amendments and changes to things or ask for it to be changed.

Protesting won't do anything. Surely everyone knows that, the Government will just put there ear plugs in or go on holiday at the taxpayers expense like Cameron used to ignore the protests.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> So the idea of the government having a mandate to leave  So is the idea that politicians tell the truth. how is the 48% represented in parliament I wonder? No they are being told what to vote not by what they believe is right but by politics. Article 50 will pass. Couple of years at least fighting to go on and on.
> 
> Interesting no 2nd referendum.. why are leave campaigners so scared.


My hockey team lost last night, 3-2
Reckon we should have a rematch!
What do you say goblin?


----------



## KittenKong

Always thought Owen Smith would have make a better Labour leader.

Good on him:


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> ..


Yep, totally agree lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Yep, totally agree lol


I totally agree to lol
.........


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> My hockey team lost last night, 3-2
> Reckon we should have a rematch!
> What do you say goblin?


I expect you will at some stage, that's how it works. Let's see, elections, actually have a rematch every 4 years. Farage, well how many times has he attempted to become an MP? Maybe the world would be better if he simply accepted the first result, certainly the UK would.

Why is it your idea that something like an non-binding referendum should be automatically binding and set governmental policy doesn't match the way the world works. Do you need the video of Farage stating it's not binding to be linked in again, this after the vote was for leave? In fact do you need video of him saying if the vote went the other way he would continue to campaign to leave? Remind me again, which side did the person who started the 2nd referendum petition actually belong to? Need I continue with more examples?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I
> Why is it your idea that something like an non-binding referendum


Goblin you seem to like referring to the referendum as non-binding. The Justices in the Supreme Court referred to the referendum as the referendum not a non-binding referendum. Also Lawyers For Britain disagree that the referendum was non-binding and here's why:



> the Conservative General Election Manifesto of 2015 promised a referendum on membership of the EU in the following terms:
> "We believe in *letting the people decide*: so we will hold an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU before the end of 2017."It should be noted that the election promise was to "*let the people decide*". It was not a promise to hold an advisory referendum, with the final decision being left to Parliament. Nor was there any mention of minimum thresholds of percentage of vote or of turnout before the referendum would be binding. Therefore the British people were given a politically and constitutionally binding promise in the election manifesto of the successful party that they would be given the final and deciding say in a referendum in which the majority would prevail.
> 
> As a matter of constitutional practice, the inclusion of a policy in the election manifesto of a political party which achieves a majority at a general election gives rise to a constitutional mandate to implement that policy.
> 
> Secondly, Parliament enacted the European Union Referendum Act 2015, whose formal title stated that its purpose was "_To make provision for the holding of a referendum in the United Kingdom and Gibraltar on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union_". That Act authorised the holding of the referendum, regulated who would be legally entitled to vote in it and other matters about the conduct of the campaign, and specified that the question would be: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
> 
> The Act does not contain any provision saying that its result is subject to a minimum turnout threshold or a mininum percentage vote in favour of either remain or leave. Such thresholds can be imposed, for example a 40% of the electorate threshold was specified by Parliament in the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum. What would be unprecedented would be restrospectively imposing a threshold after the vote has taken place,





> The letter from 1,000 barristers claims that the result of the referendum is "advisory" because that Act "_does not make it legally binding_". It is true that the Act does not contain a section at the end expressly saying that the government is under a _legalduty_ to proceed to implement the result of the vote.
> 
> But that does not mean that the referendum result is "advisory". The Act itself does not say that it is advisory. At no point did ministers in their public statements either to Parliament or outside say that the referendum result would only be advisory. On the contrary, they repeatedly said that the referendum would allow the British people to _decide_ the question of whether we remain or leave.
> 
> In opening the second reading debate (Hansard) on the Referendum Bill on 9 June 2015, the Foreign Secretary said:-"This is a simple, but vital, piece of legislation. It has one clear purpose: to deliver on our promise to give the British people *the final say* on our EU membership in an in/out referendum by the end of 2017." (emphasis added)And he concluded that speech as follows:"Few subjects ignite as much passion in the House or indeed in the country as our membership of the European Union. The debate in the run-up to the referendum will be hard fought on both sides of the argument. But whether we favour Britain being in or out, we surely should all be able to agree on the simple principle that *the decision about our membership should be taken by the British people*, not by Whitehall bureaucrats, certainly not by Brussels Eurocrats; *not even by Government Ministers or parliamentarians in this Chamber*. The decision must be for the common sense of the British people. That is what we pledged, and that is what we have a mandate to deliver. For too long, the people of Britain have been denied their say. For too long, powers have been handed to Brussels over their heads. For too long, their voice on Europe has not been heard. This Bill puts that right. It delivers the simple in/out referendum that we promised, and I commend it to the House." (emphasis added)Thirdly, in the course of the referendum campaign the government spent £9.5million of taxpayers' money on printing a leaflet and distributing it to all households in the United Kingdom. That leaflet attracted widespread (and deserved) criticism for its gross bias in favour of remaining in the EU. However, on the consequences of the referendum it could not have been clearer. On the page headed "A once in a generation decision" it stated that:"The referendum on Thursday 23rd June is *your chance to decide *if we should remain in the European Union."
> It did not say "it is your chance to _advise on_whether we should remain, _the actual decision being taken by Parliament_."
> 
> But it went on to be even clearer and more emphatic:"*This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.*"It is therefore clear that the referendum was not merely advisory, but was constitutionally _decisive and binding_. The clear, repeated and unequivocal promise made to the British people was that their vote in the referendum would finally decide the course which our country takes. Treating the result as merely advisory would be a flagrant breach of the repeated and unequivocal promises made to the British people. There should be no second guessing or reversal of the result by Parliament or by anybody else.


Enjoy reading.
http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/referendum-binding.shtml


----------



## Goblin

Oh the manifesto.. hint what politicians say does not equate to truth and what will happen. Shall we start with all the leave lies again? Well we could start with not leaving the single market. Oops. If everything politicians say is truth and enforceable I guess that makes the brexit invalid anyway.

Lawyersforbritain as a source.. okay.. So tell me, how does commercial and marketing law equate to international law? Would you hire a marketing lawyer to settle a divorce or would you get someone who deals with divorce law? Try again with better sources.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Oh the manifesto.. hint what politicians say does not equate to truth and what will happen. Shall we start with all the leave lies again? Well we could start with not leaving the single market. Oops. If everything politicians say is truth and enforceable I guess that makes the brexit invalid anyway.
> 
> Lawyersforbritain as a source.. okay.. So tell me, how does commercial and marketing law equate to international law? Would you hire a marketing lawyer to settle a divorce or would you get someone who deals with divorce law? Try again with better sources.


:Yawn:Yawn:Yawn:Yawn


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> :Yawn:Yawn:Yawn:Yawn


Yep, your standard response instead of viable counter points. Least it's not "I've had enough I'm running away".

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yep, your standard response instead of viable counter points. Least it's not "I've had enough I'm running away".
> 
> :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


Nope here's my response.
Try reading something that disagrees with what you are saying or believe.

Proves you don't like reading anything that doesn't fit within your way of thinking.
The Referendum was binding end of. It was never referred to otherwise to the public at large before the referendum, during the campaigning or otherwise. Plus it was in the Conservative manifesto that the referendum was to be held (no mentioned of a none binding referendum).


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Nope here's my response.
> Try reading something that disagrees with what you are saying or believe.
> 
> Proves you don't like reading anything that doesn't fit within your way of thinking.
> The Referendum was binding end of. It was never referred to otherwise to the public at large before the referendum, during the campaigning or otherwise. Plus it was in the Conservative manifesto that the referendum was to be held (no mentioned of a none binding referendum).


Read it. Lawyers who are experts in the field, supreme court for example disagree.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eu-referendum-was-only-advisory-a7401151.html

Try again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Read it. Lawyers who are experts in the field, supreme court for example disagree.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eu-referendum-was-only-advisory-a7401151.html
> 
> Try again.


See you accuse me for quoting newspapers and what do you do. So I give you a link to a lawyers website and you ignore it and throw a newspaper article back at me. You are just as bad with newspaper quotes Goblin.

Can't be bothered with this anymore tonight. :Muted


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> See you accuse me for quoting newspapers and what do you do. So I give you a link to a lawyers website and you ignore it and throw a newspaper article back at me. You are just as bad with newspaper quotes Goblin.


No I accuse you of quoting poor sources or ignoring key parts of your own sources.

Let's look at your lawyers Rt Hon Sir Richard Aikens, teaches commercial law and Peter Smith, a barrister specialising in media and commercial litigation. Now who knows constitutional law more, them or the supreme court?

So what reason could Farage actually have to agree the referendum was non-binding? I certainly can't think of one.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> @samuelmiles: for some posters, ''big letters and stuff'' is the scriptorial version of shouting at the top of one's voice!! (If I write my posts large enough, no-one can possibly miss them.) I avoid them like the plague.


Funny but @samuelsmiles has actually 'liked' the @stockwellcats post with _really_ 'huge' text I quoted along with my elephant reply  . I don't think any of my responses to @samuelsmiles actually had "big letters" lol I guess its a case of anything goes when it suits lol

Anyway back to the important subject of saving elephants from being wiped off the face of the earth.

Everyone who genuinely cares about these beautiful, sentient creatures should contact their MPs to back the ban and urge them to attend this debate on the 6th of Feb.












.











View attachment 298293
[/QUOTE]


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Funny but @samuelsmiles has actually 'liked' the @stockwellcats post with _really_ 'huge' text I quoted along with my elephant reply  . I don't think any of my responses to @samuelsmiles actually had "big letters" lol I guess its a case of anything goes when it suits lol


Why not ask me why the post was in large writing instead of going through other people?

The large writing was not me shouting it was due to the font of the newspaper article online. I was unaware that the writing came out as large as it did as it isn't that large on my phone. So I have nothing to apologise about, it's not my fault the font was super large because you can't change font size on pf that I know of.

I hope that clears this up?
Please next time ask me directly.

Thank you for allowing me to explain this and clear this up @noushka05


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Why not ask me why the post was in large writing instead of going through other people?
> 
> The large writing was not me shouting it was due to the font of the newspaper article online. I was unaware that the writing came out as large as it did as it isn't that large on my phone. So I have nothing to apologise about, it's not my fault the font was super large because you can't change font size on pf that I know of.
> 
> I hope that clears this up?
> Please next time ask me directly.
> 
> Thank you for allowing me to explain this and clear this up @noushka05


I wasn't the one complaining  Read back


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I wasn't the one complaining  Read back


Ok fair enough.
The explaination is here now even though I did think I did explain this before briefly.


----------



## KittenKong

Had to share this post from the Sabre site. Absolutely spot on.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Funny but @samuelsmiles has actually 'liked' the @stockwellcats post with _really_ 'huge' text I quoted along with my elephant reply  . I don't think any of my responses to @samuelsmiles actually had "big letters" lol I guess its a case of anything goes when it suits lol


You often write one or two sentences and take up a whole page.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> No but facts make points more valid. Your posts are out dated.


And yours are misleading.  The EU has not been able to put a full ban on elephant ivory trading.

It has passed * "*a resolution adopted by MEPs today *calling fo*r an immediate and full EU-wide ban on the trade in ivory*"
*
I think it will be easier for individual countries to adopt and put in place their own full bans


noushka05 said:


> Funny but @samuelsmiles has actually 'liked' the @stockwellcats post with _really_ 'huge' text I quoted along with my elephant reply  . I don't think any of my responses to @samuelsmiles actually had "big letters" lol I guess its a case of anything goes when it suits lol
> 
> Anyway back to the important subject of saving elephants from being wiped off the face of the earth.
> 
> Everyone who genuinely cares about these beautiful, sentient creatures should contact their MPs to back the ban and urge them to attend this debate on the 6th of Feb.
> 
> 
> View attachment 298572
> 
> 
> I can't believe that I've actually spent 5 minutes of my time looking back to see if I did that - I can't remember the last time I 'liked' something stockwell cat posted. (I couldn't find it but I'm sure you will put me right, noushka)
> 
> I started the thread on climate change because it has been something I've taken an interest in over the last few months - in no small part to some things you have posted. Kind of hoping it would be interesting and educating. Unfortunately, like normal, you turn it into an aggressive anti government rage, spitting out your usual 'fascism' and 'nazis' stuff.
> 
> You do really seem to have cornered the market on grief. And no, you don't _care _more about these issues because you shout the loudest.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 298293


[/QUOTE]


noushka05 said:


> Funny but @samuelsmiles has actually 'liked' the @stockwellcats post with _really_ 'huge' text I quoted along with my elephant reply  . I don't think any of my responses to @samuelsmiles actually had "big letters" lol I guess its a case of anything goes when it suits lol
> 
> Anyway back to the important subject of saving elephants from being wiped off the face of the earth.
> 
> Everyone who genuinely cares about these beautiful, sentient creatures should contact their MPs to back the ban and urge them to attend this debate on the 6th of Feb.
> 
> 
> View attachment 298572
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 298293



[/QUOTE]

I can't believe that I've actually spent 5 minutes of my time looking back to see if I did that - I can't remember the last time I 'liked' something stockwell cat posted. (I couldn't find it but I'm sure you will put me right, noushka)

I started the thread on climate change because it has been something I've taken an interest in over the last few months - in no small part to some things you have posted. Kind of hoping it would be interesting and educating. Unfortunately, like normal, you turn it into an aggressive anti government rage, spitting out your usual 'fascism' and 'nazis' stuff.

You do really seem to have cornered the market on grief. And no, you don't _care _more about these issues because you shout the loudest.


----------



## stockwellcat.

samuelsmiles said:


> I can't believe that I've actually spent 5 minutes of my time looking back to see if I did that - *I can't remember the last time I 'liked' something stockwell cat posted. *(I couldn't find it but I'm sure you will put me right, noushka)


Page 200, Post 3985 you liked my post, I think that's what @noushka05 is going on about. 

I to spent along time going through previous posts to see were this was that @noushka05 was referring to.


----------



## samuelsmiles

stockwellcat said:


> Post 3985 you liked my post, I think that's what noushka05 is going on about.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## samuelsmiles

stockwellcat said:


> Page 200, Post 3985 you liked my post, I think that's what @noushka05 is going on about.
> 
> I to spent along time going through previous posts to see were this was that @noushka05 was referring to.





stockwellcat said:


> Page 200, Post 3985 you liked my post, I think that's what @noushka05 is going on about.
> 
> I to spent along time going through previous posts to see were this was that @noushka05 was referring to.


Thank you very much stockweelcat.

Could you please confirm/clarify (or not) that there were either big letters, very big pictures (or a combination of both) within your post and were any of them (or none) highlighted, italicized or bolded.


----------



## stockwellcat.

samuelsmiles said:


> Thank you very much stockweelcat.
> 
> Could you please confirm/clarify (or not) that there were either big letters, very big pictures (or a combination of both) within your post and were any of them (or none) highlighted, italicized or bolded.


Well shall we ask the same question to @noushka05 about her threads


----------



## stockwellcat.

samuelsmiles said:


> Thank you very much stockweelcat.
> 
> Could you please confirm/clarify (or not) that there were either big letters, very big pictures (or a combination of both) within your post and were any of them (or none) highlighted, italicized or bolded.


The letters don't look that big on my phone when looking at this post. The pictures are thumb nails, not my fault they get enlarged and regarding using *bold writing *and underlining text isn't this the way you make points stand out? :Hilarious

:JawdropSo this thread has decended into picking on me for using large letters , photos, highlighted text, italics and bolding text. :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> So this thread has decended into picking on me for using large letters , photos, highlighted text, italics and bolding text.


According to you, this thread descended into picking on you way before that, as soon as people told you your arguments did not stand up to reality


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well the Bill has been laid in front of Parliament for MPs to debate on Tuesday 31st January 2017 and Wednesday 1st February 2017 and then a third day of debating and a vote on the 8th February 2017.

*Brexit trigger bill laid in front of Parliament*

The Government has published its bill asking Parliament for permission to trigger the official Brexit process.

MPs will debate the European Union Notification of Withdrawal Bill on Tuesday and Wednesday, the Government has announced, with third day of debate and a vote on 8 February.



> The two-clause bill says simply: "The Prime Minister may notify, under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, the United Kingdom's intention to withdraw from the EU."


http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-trigger-bill-laid-in-front-of-parliament-10743363


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> The letters don't look that big on my phone when looking at this post. The pictures are thumb nails, not my fault they get enlarged and regarding using *bold writing *and underlining text isn't this the way you make points stand out? :Hilarious
> 
> :Jawdrop*So this thread has decended into picking on me *for using large letters , photos, highlighted text, italics and bolding text. :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


Don't worry about it, I'm get picked on for one thing or another, I just take no notice of them, maybe some of them should get a life a stop been so small minded.


----------



## kimthecat

Ok, people , lets kiss and make up . No tongues , mind !  :Hungry


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Ok, people , lets kiss and make up . No tongues , mind !  :Hungry


Ok but it only goes as far as a handshake, no tongues or kisses


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> Well the Bill has been laid in front of Parliament for MPs to debate on Tuesday 31st January 2017 and Wednesday 1st February 2017 and then a third day of debating and a vote on the 8th February 2017.
> 
> *Brexit trigger bill laid in front of Parliament*
> 
> The Government has published its bill asking Parliament for permission to trigger the official Brexit process.
> 
> MPs will debate the European Union Notification of Withdrawal Bill on Tuesday and Wednesday, the Government has announced, with third day of debate and a vote on 8 February.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-trigger-bill-laid-in-front-of-parliament-10743363


May was certainly ahead of the game here wasn't she?

Hoping she's just as efficient over the next couple of years


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> May was certainly ahead of the game here wasn't she?
> 
> Hoping she's just as efficient over the next couple of years


Corbyn has said he is giving his party a three line whip telling them to vote for Article 50 and back it. Front benchers have already said they will leave the front bench in protest.

TM will have no opposition again as Labour will decend into chaos again.

http://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-tells-his-labour-mps-they-must-vote-for-brexit-10743495

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/jeremy-corbyn-three-line-whip-labour-mps-article-50-trigger-brexit-bill-party-leader-a7547341.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola

What the Article 50 Bill says:
http://news.sky.com/story/what-does-the-brexit-trigger-bill-say-10743439


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> Corbyn has said he is giving his party a three line whip telling them to vote for Article 50 and back it. Front benchers have already said they will leave the front bench in protest.
> 
> TM will have no opposition again as Labour will defend into chaos again.


I honestly don't know why Corbyn is doing that. It seems to go against everything he said he stands for.

Any ideas on that anyone?


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> I honestly don't know why Corbyn is doing that. It seems to go against everything he said he stands for.
> 
> Any ideas on that anyone?


Perhaps he's a secret Conservative spy sent into the Labour party to be elected as leader to cause Labours downfall so the Conservatives have no opposition? I am just guessing.

The man isn't trustworthy to lead Labour.


----------



## Goblin

Ah democracy with whips involved. Hear May is also going to hand over a white paper containing her plans, despite saying she wouldn't initially. Wonder if it will consist of simply a rewritten version of her speech.

Critical time in UK democracy and we have no effective opposition party.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Ah democracy with whips involved. Hear May is also going to hand over a white paper containing her plans, despite saying she wouldn't initially. Wonder if it will consist of simply a rewritten version of her speech.
> 
> Critical time in UK democracy and we have no effective opposition party.


The White Paper is rumoured to be a copy of Theresa May's speech on the Brexit Plan but won't be available until after 8th February 2017 (the date set aside for the Article 50 vote).

Corbyn wasn't really an opposition leader anyway, his leadership skills are very weak. But Labour supporters wanted him as party leader just over 4 months ago (24th September 2016) in the leadership contest against Owen Smith.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Labour revolt begins. Senior Labour MPs and Shadow Cabinet Ministers threaten to resign over Jeremy Corbyn's 3 line whip:

*Article 50: Labour MPs consider resigning over Corbyn's three-line whip*

Clive Lewis and Tulip Siddiq among frontbenchers opposed to triggering Brexit as party leader says he expects all his MPs to vote in favour.

Jeremy Corbyn will impose a three-line whip on MPs to vote in favour of triggering article 50 when the bill comes before parliament next week, with frontbenchers Clive Lewis and Tulip Siddiq understood to be considering resigning in protest.

Several shadow cabinet ministers are understood to have argued for a free vote, given the difference of opinion in the party, during a tense shadow cabinet meeting.

One senior Labour source said Lewis, the shadow business secretary, had said he would vote against the bill and suggested he could even campaign against it. It is not clear if he would be able to remain a member of the shadow cabinet. At least two other shadow cabinet ministers are also understood to be considering their positions.

Other shadow cabinet ministers including Jo Stevens, Rachael Maskell and Cat Smith reportedly argued against a three-line whip but one source stressed that did not necessarily mean they would rebel or resign.

The shadow home secretary, Diane Abbott, a vocal critic of leaving the EU, as well as the shadow work and pensions minister, Debbie Abrahams, and the shadow diverse communities minister, Dawn Butler, are all believed to be willing to vote in favour of the article 50 bill.

Siddiq, the shadow minister for early years, has said she will vote in line with her strongly remain-leaning Hampstead and Kilburn constituency in north London in any article 50 bill.

http://theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/26/corbyn-to-impose-three-line-whip-on-labour-mps-to-trigger-article-50-brexit?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> I started the thread on climate change because it has been something I've taken an interest in over the last few months - in no small part to some things you have posted. Kind of hoping it would be interesting and educating. Unfortunately, like normal, you turn it into an aggressive anti government rage, spitting out your usual 'fascism' and 'nazis' stuff.
> 
> You do really seem to have cornered the market on grief. And no, you don't _care _more about these issues because you shout the loudest.[/SIZE]


Oh, come on! You can't discuss climate change without reference to government policy.

It's far right parties who are the climate change deniers after all.
Noushka has every right to bring politics into it.

While my own views on the matter are not as passionate as Noushka's the very thought of fracking horrifies me.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Corbyn has said he is giving his party a three line whip telling them to vote for Article 50 and back it. Front benchers have already said they will leave the front bench in protest.
> 
> TM will have no opposition again as Labour will decend into chaos again.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-tells-his-labour-mps-they-must-vote-for-brexit-10743495
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/jeremy-corbyn-three-line-whip-labour-mps-article-50-trigger-brexit-bill-party-leader-a7547341.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola
> 
> What the Article 50 Bill says:
> http://news.sky.com/story/what-does-the-brexit-trigger-bill-say-10743439


Well, if you're right Corbyn will be finished as Labour leader. Personally speaking I cannot give my support to anyone who remotely backs the government's stance on Brexit.

As discussed on the Jeremy Corbyn thread, those who defected to UKIP are unlikely to return to Labour. With his attempt to wow these UKIP defectors he's alienating the majority of Labour voters who don't back Brexit.

You're right though, it is good news for May and her one party state while Corbyn remains Labour leader. They need to work with the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Green Party to build an effective opposition.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> *Well, if you're right Corbyn will be finished as Labour leader. *Personally speaking I cannot give my support to anyone who remotely backs the government's stance on Brexit.
> 
> As discussed on the Jeremy Corbyn thread, those who defected to UKIP are unlikely to return to Labour. With his attempt to wow these UKIP defectors he's alienating the majority of Labour voters who don't back Brexit.
> 
> You're right though, it is good news for May and her one party state while Corbyn remains Labour leader.


It's not if I am right, because without being big headed I know I am right.  Corbyn said it in a live interview on Sky News and it has since gone all over the press and is on every news channel and has gone viral online.

Corbyn's senior MPs and Shadow Cabinet Ministers are considering resigning over Corbyn's 3 line whip over the article 50 bill and his demand they vote in favour of the Article 50 bill being passed through.


----------



## Goblin

I've no doubt this bill will pass. It is what happens in the next couple of years which will be important. The impact of brexit will certainly be far more noticeable then.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I've no doubt this bill will pass. It is what happens in the next couple of years which will be important. The impact of brexit will certainly be far more noticeable then.


They have extended the debating to 5 days on the bill. Tuesday 31st January 2017, Wednesday 1st February 2017, Monday 6th February 2017, Tuesday 7th February 2017 and Wednesday 8th February 2017 and the vote late at night on Wednesday 8th February 2017.

MPs complained that the original debating period was to short, 3 days and this is why it has been extended.


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> According to you, this thread descended into picking on you way before that, as soon as people told you your arguments did not stand up to reality


Matter of opinion goblet, stockwells post make as much sense, possibly more
Infact then many I have read. Much of what I am reading from the remainers is either waffle, exaggerated or mere pie in the sky


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> Don't worry about it, I'm get picked on for one thing or another, I just take no notice of them, maybe some of them should get a life a stop been so small minded.


They definately need to get out more!


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Oh surprise, surprise the Senior MPs and Shadow Cabinet MPs are backing down and saying they will now back Corbyn's 3 line whip and back Article 50 and will get behind Jeremy Corbyn. News has broken in last few minutes.
> 
> So the revolt has stopped
> Always drama on Labours side of Parliament


Awh labour, the party that needs a diagram to tie a shoelace


----------



## stockwellcat.

Labour front bencher MP Tulip Siddiq has resigned over the 3 line whip.

Corbyn's nightmare begins.

http://theguardian.com/politics/201...er-article-50-vote?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Much of what I am reading from the remainers is either waffle, exaggerated or mere pie in the sky


Make sure next time you are flying by aeroplane then the aircraft has been serviced by a car mehanic rather than an airplane mechanic then  Wait, you don't believe in experts, can be serviced by anybody from the street.


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> Awh labour, the party that needs a diagram to tie a shoelace


and the tory leader needs someone to tell her how to dress.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> and the tory leader needs someone to tell her how to dress.


Yeah, red, white and blue no doubt.
They used to wear uniforms in the old days........


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> You often write one or two sentences and take up a whole page.


As do others. I'm guessing you only complain if they say something you don't want to hear though lol



samuelsmiles said:


> And yours are misleading.  The EU has not been able to put a full ban on elephant ivory trading.
> 
> It has passed * "*a resolution adopted by MEPs today *calling fo*r an immediate and full EU-wide ban on the trade in ivory*"
> *
> I think it will be easier for individual countries to adopt and put in place their own full bans


I've just gone back over my posts & I agree my first response to you was misleading. I apologise, it wasn't intentional. The link I attached to said post is clear though, & reiterates what you state now.. As does my second response - that a _resolution has been passed calling for an immediate_ ban. Good news surely? Your outdated article stated the opposite. Maybe we'll have good news about our domestic market on the 6th. Really hope you will contact your MP. I used this to write to mine - https://www.writetothem.com/

The only reason we have an opportunity to pressure MPs is because this epetition passed the 100,000 mark. You may have signed it.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/165905
*
Shut down the domestic ivory market in the UK.*

The Conservatives pledged to shut down the UK's domestic ivory market in their manifesto for the past two elections. 30,000 African Elephants are slaughtered a year for their tusks yet, the government has still not outlawed the trade. From 2009 to 2014, 40% of UK customs seizures were ivory items.

_▼_More details
Many African nations, the US, France and even China have committed to outlawing the markets. There are only around 450,000 African Elephants left, in another six years there will be almost half this amount if governments continue to turn a blind eye; the UK are putting Elephants at risk from extinction. If there were not a market, then the elephants would no longer be in danger. The UK needs to set an example that the only tusks of value are those on a live Elephant, before they cease to exist

[_QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]_

_I can't believe that I've actually spent 5 minutes of my time looking back to see if I did that - I can't remember the last time I 'liked' something stockwell cat posted. (I couldn't find it but I'm sure you will put me right, noushka)_

_._

_I started the thread on climate change because it has been something I've taken an interest in over the last few months - in no small part to some things you have posted. Kind of hoping it would be interesting and educating. Unfortunately, like normal, you turn it into an aggressive anti government rage, spitting out your usual 'fascism' and 'nazis' stuff._

_You do really seem to have cornered the market on grief. And no, you don't care more about these issues because you shout the loudest.__[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]_

I quoted said post so could have found it straight away using the search bar, but thank you for saving me the trouble @stockwellcat.

Everything I posted on your climate thread was factual & current, & I (clearly wrongly in your case) believed it would be of interest to anyone who cares about the greatest threat to life on earth we face. I never once mentioned 'fascism' & 'Nazis' stuff - that is a complete fabrication by you. Maybe you don't believe this government should be held to account?. If you are so concerned about environmental issues, I do not understand why you so defensive about a government hell bent on destroying our natural world for short term gain. One of the main reasons I am so anti government is because they are so anti environmental. If we don't challenge government how do you suppose we can change things for the better?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sorry misread above post and apologise @noushka05.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> I have found your post very hard to follow. I only replied because you dragged me into your rant, but I still can't make out if you was having ago at me or everyone mentioned in your post
> 
> If it was aimed at me in any way can you kindly please quote my bit properly so I can read properly that you are specifically having ago at me as you opened quotes and then closed them again straight after.
> 
> I don't know why you choose if you are having ago at me.
> 
> PS I don't have a climate change thread by the way.


I wasn't having a go at you. I quoted Samuel but for some reason it went wrong - so I coloured it blue to differentiate. I know you don't have a climate change thread lol - I wasn't referring to you. Hope that helps lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I wasn't having a go at you. I quoted Samuel but for some reason it went wrong - so I coloured it blue to differentiate. I know you don't have a climate change thread lol - I wasn't referring to you. Hope that helps lol


I apologise, I misread the post. Glad to have helped by quoting the post number and page number


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> and the tory leader needs someone to tell her how to dress.


She can wear a black bag for all I care so long as she gets us out of that corrupt Club


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> Have a read @Goblin it may take sometime as this is an extensive document on CTA and the Irish Border:
> https://www.freemovement.org.uk/brexit-briefing-impact-on-common-travel-area-and-the-irish/
> 
> It mentions protocols 19, 20 and 21 of the EU treaty.
> 
> In this context, the term 'common travel area' refers to administrative arrangements providing a special immigration control regime as between the UK and the Republic of Ireland.[ii] Arrangements of this kind have been in place for the most of the period since the Irish Free State was established in 1922.[iii] In practice, the aims of these arrangements have been to ensure relative freedom of movement between the two states, and to establish forms of co-operation between the two states' immigration authorities.
> 
> The primary explanation for the durability of these arrangements has been the assumption of the UK authorities that it is impractical for the Irish border to be an immigration frontier.[iv] One result has been support by Northern Irish unionists for the common travel area, in order to avoid immigration control on journeys between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.[v]
> 
> The many social and economic connections between the Republic of Ireland and all parts of the UK are a second factor pointing towards relative freedom of movement between the two states. This aspect of the common travel area is generally favoured by the Irish Government. It also appeals to nationalist opinion in Northern Ireland, which supports any lessening of the _de facto _consequences of the partition of the island of Ireland.
> 
> A third factor underlying common travel area arrangements is that these favour the free movement of labour. For most of the period since 1922, that meant movement of Irish workers to Great Britain. With greater economic development in the Republic of Ireland since the mid-1990s, the pattern has been more varied, with movement in both directions.
> 
> *Current arrangements*
> The legal framework relating to the common travel area is quite different in the two states.
> 
> In _UK law_, by virtue of section 1(3) of the Immigration Act 1971, immigration control does not apply to persons arriving from the Republic of Ireland. Persons arriving from the Republic of Ireland have leave to enter automatically, subject to the provisions of the Immigration (Control of Entry through Republic of Ireland) Order 1972. Article 3 of the 1972 Order excludes several categories of person from the benefit of section 1(3), including visa nationals not in possession of a visa. Article 4 of the Order deems certain other persons to have leave only for three months, including persons whose nationality means that they do not require visas.
> 
> Of particular significance is an exemption within Article 4 to these deemed leave arrangements. In its original version, Article 4 of the 1972 Order exempted _Irish_ citizens alone. That provision was however replaced in 2014 by an exemption for EEA/ Swiss nationals and their family members who have a right to enter deriving from EU free movement law.
> 
> Under _Irish immigration law_, everyone who is not an Irish or a British citizen is classed as a 'non-national'.[vi] Under the Immigration Act 2004, immigration controls apply automatically to all 'non-nationals' who arrive from the UK by air or sea, and _may_ be imposed upon 'non-nationals' who arrive by land from Northern Ireland. Individuals who arrive by land must obtain immigration permission to be in the state within one month. This framework is however to be read with the EU free movement of persons rules, which confer rights of entry and residence upon EEA/Swiss nationals and family members.
> 
> The two states' authorities have long co-operated in immigration control in practice. One area where extensive co-operation is evident concerns the list of states whose nationals require a visa to enter: currently, 103 states are subject to visa requirements in both states, seven in the UK alone, and seven in the Republic of Ireland alone. A more recent development saw the launching in October 2014 of a joint British-Irish visa, which allows nationals of China and India to visit both states for up to three months, on the basis of a visa issued by either state. There is also co-operation to ensure that individuals cannot use one state as a back door to the other. That is linked in turn to provision in the immigration law of each state for entry to be denied to a person who intends to travel to the other, but who would not be admitted there.
> 
> At the EU level, these arrangements between the UK and Republic of Ireland are reflected in three Protocols annexed to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU.* Protocol 19, which is concerned with the Schengen open borders zone, provides that the Republic of Ireland and the UK are not automatically covered by Schengen rules, or by proposals to develop them.* *Protocol 20 allows the UK and Republic of Ireland to 'continue to make arrangements between themselves relating to the movement of persons between their territories ('the Common Travel Area')'. Protocol 21 provides that each of the UK and the Republic of Ireland may unilaterally choose to opt in to immigration or asylum legislation other than Schengen rules, or to discussion of proposals relating to such legislation.*
> 
> *Implications of withdrawal*
> *In the event of UK decision to withdraw, it is to be presumed that the underlying reasons for the common travel area would continue to apply. The political consensus in support of the common travel area in Northern Ireland would probably be an especially significant factor.[vii]
> 
> Continuing with common travel area arrangements also appears to be compatible with EU law. There is no obvious legal reason why the Republic of Ireland should not retain the benefit of Protocols 19 and 20 after UK exit, allowing it to maintain special co-operation arrangements with the UK outside the Schengen zone.*
> 
> After a UK decision to withdraw, reform of common travel arrangements might nevertheless be considered. In the words of the Government's March 2016 document _Alternatives to Membership _'It is not clear that the Common Travel Area could continue to operate with the UK outside the EU, and Ireland inside, in the same way that it did before both countries joined the EU in 1973.'[viii]
> 
> One contextual factor would be the possible emergence of customs checks on goods moving between the two states. In the event of a UK withdrawal, much would depend on the terms of its subsequent relationship to the EU. To the extent that customs checks applied to goods moving across the border on the island of Ireland, or to traffic between the Republic of Ireland and Great Britain, there would be pressure for controls on the movement of persons as well.
> 
> Three specific factors in the immigration policy field that point towards reform of common travel area arrangements may also be suggested.
> 
> _The need to amend UK legislation in any event. _If the UK left the EU, an amendment to Article 4 of the 1972 Order (above) would be required in any event. The 1972 Order currently contains an exemption for all those with rights deriving from EU free movement law in the UK, something which would make no sense in the event of withdrawal. Would an exemption for Irish citizens alone be restored? For reasons explained in section 2 (below), that question would probably be linked to a wider set of issues about the status of Irish citizens in UK immigration law.
> 
> I have nothing further to say to you @Goblin and that is it ok. Don't bother trying to pick on me ok.


May will clarify it when she returns next week from meeting Trump: "We're gonna build a waaaall". <cheers.> "And who's gonna pay for the waaall?" <pause.> "Ireland's gonna pays for the waaall!"


----------



## 1290423

Satori said:


> May will clarify it when she returns next week from meeting Trump: "We're gonna build a waaaall". <cheers.> "And who's gonna pay for the waaall?" <pause.> "Ireland's gonna pays for the waaall!"


We could build two, wee nicola cranky could pay for the other


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> May will clarify it when she returns next week from meeting Trump: "We're gonna build a waaaall". <cheers.> "And who's gonna pay for the waaall?" <pause.> "Ireland's gonna pays for the waaall!"



TM will just tell them to get in line and shut up I guess. The Supreme Court said neither Scotland, Northern Ireland nor Wales needs to be consulted over Brexit. So I wonder if Scotland's 50 amendments will be ignored, more than likely. 

*Brexit will require the consent of Parliament-but not of the devolved assemblies*
The Supreme Court's ruling leaves Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland without a say

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...-and-northern-ireland-without-say-brexit-will


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> May will clarify it when she returns next week from meeting Trump: *"We're gonna build a waaaall". <cheers.>* "And who's gonna pay for the waaall?" <pause.> "Ireland's gonna pays for the waaall!"


A wall like this you mean...


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> We could build two, wee nicola *cranky *could pay for the other


What a striking resemblance.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> She can wear a black bag for all I care so long as she gets us out of that corrupt Club


To add us to Trump's groupies..
Because Trump's USA will be a better master...


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Theresa May gets standing ovation at start of US visit*

Theresa May has been given a standing ovation by leading Republicans as she gave a speech at the start of her US visit.

The Prime Minister evoked the relationship between Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan as she called on the US to renew its special bond with the UK.

Speaking at the annual Congressional Republican Retreat in Philadelphia, she compared the shared belief in "the value of liberty, the dignity of work, the principles of nationhood, family, economic prudence, patriotism - and putting power in the hands of the people" between the Republicans and the Conservative Party.

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-gets-standing-ovation-at-start-of-us-visit-10744053

-----------------
Right now we have America's backing please get on with it TM and get the UK out of the EU. Deal or No Deal with the EU. You have proven the UK has countries lined up to strike trade deals with the UK after Brexit.

Get on with it and make Brexit happen so the UK can get these trade deals. The EU are only jealous because the UK is being preferred above them.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> *Theresa May gets standing ovation at start of US visit*
> 
> Theresa May has been given a standing ovation by leading Republicans as she gave a speech at the start of her US visit.
> 
> The Prime Minister evoked the relationship between Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan as she called on the US to renew its special bond with the UK.
> 
> Speaking at the annual Congressional Republican Retreat in Philadelphia, she compared the shared belief in "the value of liberty, the dignity of work, the principles of nationhood, family, economic prudence, patriotism - and putting power in the hands of the people" between the Republicans and the Conservative Party.
> 
> -----------------
> Right now we have America's backing please get on with it TM and get the UK out of the EU. Deal or No Deal with the EU. You have proven the UK has countries lined up to strike trade deals with the UK after Brexit.
> 
> Get on with it and make Brexit happen so the UK can get these trade deals. The EU are only jealous because the UK is being preferred above them.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-gets-standing-ovation-at-start-of-us-visit-10744053


The Orange Man is happy...a bit like spider greeting a fly...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> The Orange Man is happy...a bit like spider greeting a fly...


Would you be?
America and UK strongest of allies again and with the potential of a trade deal of the century


----------



## Satori

DT said:


> We could build two, wee nicola cranky could pay for the other


When is he when we need him?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Would you be?
> America and UK strongest of allies again and with the potential of a trade deal of the century
> 
> View attachment 298641


And for century regretted.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 298646


Ireland must be dancing too...









CitiBank is moving too...


----------



## stockwellcat.

*.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 298652
> 
> Trump


There's no way I would align myself to Trump, While I agree with a few of his views, I abhor so many


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Would you be?
> America and UK strongest of allies again and with the potential of a trade deal of the century
> 
> View attachment 298641


So tell me.. when Trump signed his pipeline deal, what were his words about his trade priorites?
So tell me, what did Trump actually say about trade priorities during his inauguration speech?

So tell me how long trade deals take to work out and please tell me when we can start trade negotiations. How long is a term of office for a US president and what guarantee do you have that Trump will serve more than a single term, someone who is causing division in his own country will have?

Finally tell me just what makes you think you'll have a trade deal of the century?

When the UK leaves the UK there will be no trade deals active as it's only then the UK can start negotiations.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So tell me.. when Trump signed his pipeline deal, what were his words about his trade priorites?
> So tell me, what did Trump actually say about trade priorities during his inauguration speech?
> 
> So tell me how long trade deals take to work out and please tell me when we can start trade negotiations. How long is a term of office for a US president and what guarantee do you have that a more than a single term someone who is causing division in his own country will have?
> 
> Finally tell me just what makes you think you'll have a trade deal of the century?
> 
> When the UK leaves the UK there will be no trade deals active as it's only then the UK can start negotiations.


:Yawn


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> :Yawn


I know.. annoying when people ask you simple questions your spin cannot answer without exposing glaring holes.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I know.. annoying when people ask you simple questions your spin cannot answer without exposing glaring holes.


Its boring when you go around and around in circles asking the same questions over and over again expecting different answers. That's annoying.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So tell me.. when Trump signed his pipeline deal, what were his words about his trade priorites?
> So tell me, what did Trump actually say about trade priorities during his inauguration speech?
> 
> So tell me how long trade deals take to work out and please tell me when we can start trade negotiations. How long is a term of office for a US president and what guarantee do you have that Trump will serve more than a single term, someone who is causing division in his own country will have?
> 
> Finally tell me just what makes you think you'll have a trade deal of the century?
> 
> When the UK leaves the UK there will be no trade deals active as it's only then the UK can start negotiations.


In your opinion.
Thank you for your opinion but it joins the opinions at the back of the queue in the ignore pile.










For months now we have heard your negative stance but now we move forward not backwards and look towards BREXIT.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Its boring when you go around and around in circles asking the same questions over and over again expecting different answers. That's annoying.


Repetition of easy questions isn't going round in circles when you don't answer them in the first place. I know it's annoying when your spin doesn't match reality.

Ah back to "we're leaving" as the only answer you're prepared to give as you cannot provide anything else.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Repetition of questions isn't going round in circles when you don't answer them in the first place. I know it's annoying when your spin doesn't match reality.


Your spin is worse as it has all been proven wrong.
Your spin is based upon the Brexit vote which has all been proven wrong. Success is what you make it.

How's Germany nowadays? I have heard Anglea Merkel keeps making threats of making Brexit hard for the UK. Tut tut. She is up for election and may not be in power during the main Brexit negotiations.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Success is what you make it.


It is so why not make success as part of the EU? Oh that's rights, xenophobia and nationalism.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> It is so why not make success as part of the EU? Oh that's rights, xenophobia and nationalism.


I am not xenoophobic or nationalist. Just don't like the EU the governing political body of Europe.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I am not xenoophobic or nationalist. Just don't like the EU.


Oh...but sucking up to Orange puss grabber is just so great....

I have lots of respect for Obama .

None for the Overcombed.
Please, do not say I am antyamerican.

So now we want to follow the lead of someone who does not believe in climate change, who loves fossil fuels, who believes in building walls between countries, who is a sexist, who is racist and ageist?

I have lots of respect for Donald Tusk. None for Donald Trump.

If Britain wants to follow him...


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I am not xenoophobic or nationalist. Just don't like the EU the governing political body Europe.


UK governs UK even within the EU. If we didn't we wouldn't be able to leave.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Fantastic speech by TM in America.
She got a standing ovation by our new future trading partners.
http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-gets-standing-ovations-at-start-of-us-visit-10744053


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> UK governs UK even within the EU. If we didn't we wouldn't be able to leave.


Listen to yourself.
What a load of tosh.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh...but sucking up to Orange puss grabber is just so great....
> 
> I have lots of respect for Obama .
> 
> None for the Overcombed.
> Please, do not say I am antyamerican.
> 
> So now we want to follow the lead of someone who does not believe in climate change, who loves fossil fuels, who believes in building walls between countries, who is a sexist, who is racist and ageist?
> 
> I have lots of respect for Donald Tusk. None for Donald Trump.
> 
> If Britain wants to follow him...


Donald Tusk is stepping down as EU leader so you are welcome to support him.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> It is so why not make success as part of the EU? Oh that's rights, xenophobia and nationalism.


Why do the remainers continue to label those wanting to to leave xenophobic?


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Why do the remainers continue to label those wanting to to leave xenophobic?


Try one of the biggest lies of the leave campaign:


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Try one of the biggest lies of the leave campaign:


Wells lets face it, our hospitals, our schools, our housing are all at breaking point! Arguably whether that is due to lack of spending by this government the previous governments or the increase in population is imaterial, if we keep allowing free movement where are we going to house all these people? How are we going to treat them if they become ill? We cannot conjur up houses and hospitals overnight. Besides, look at the amount of homeless there are on the streets now!


----------



## 1290423

http://news.sky.com/story/figures-show-rise-in-number-of-people-sleeping-on-the-streets-10742138


----------



## Goblin

Try this one:
https://brexit853.wordpress.com/201...lem-it-is-the-way-the-uk-fails-to-control-it/


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, stockwellCat:

Page 200, Post 3985 you liked my post, I think that's what noushka05 is going on about. 

/QUOTE

==================================================

QUOTE, SamuelSmiles:

Could you please confirm / clarify (or not) that there were either big letters, very big pictures (or a combination of both) 
within your post, and were any of them (or none) highlighted, italicized or bolded? 

/QUOTE
.
.
here ya go, Sam Smiles - hav a guid look fer yersen. 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out.426589/page-200#post-1064757480
.
.
.


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> She can wear a black bag for all I care so long as she gets us out of that corrupt Club


and put us in one of her own making, that's going to help isn't it.


----------



## noushka05

How Mays lurch to Trump shows that leaving the EU means we've lost, not gained, control of ourselves.

Britain's excruciating embrace of Donald Trump shows how little independence it has gained from Brexit* -*

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...t-more-control-over-its?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/


----------



## noushka05

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, stockwellCat:
> 
> Page 200, Post 3985 you liked my post, I think that's what noushka05 is going on about.
> 
> /QUOTE
> 
> ==================================================
> 
> QUOTE, SamuelSmiles:
> 
> Could you please confirm / clarify (or not) that there were either big letters, very big pictures (or a combination of both)
> within your post, and were any of them (or none) highlighted, italicized or bolded?
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> here ya go, Sam Smiles - hav a guid look fer yersen.
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out.426589/page-200#post-1064757480
> .
> .
> .


Yes that's the post in question. Thank you LFL


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Try one of the biggest lies of the leave campaign:


Farage is the breaking point.

So government wants cheap labour for jobs unwanted? But when those people need housing and schools and health care it is an outrage?
Employ robots. With solar panels.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> *Why do the remainers continue to label those wanting to to leave xenophobic?*


@Goblin Come on you haven't answered this question and us leave voters are well within our rights to get an answer. Come on @Goblin. I am asking you @Goblin because you keep playing the xeonphobia and race card calling leavers this because leavers want the UK to leave the EU. @DT is well within there rights to ask the question they asked and @DT, me and the rest of the leave voters deserve an answer.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just watched TM's speech yesterday in the US.

Fantastic. Standing Ovation after Standing Ovation.

No it wasn't all about Brexit.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> lol


And punctuating your posts with ''lol'' when they are not funny is somewhat tedious.


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> Why do the remainers continue to label those wanting to to leave xenophobic?[/QUOTE
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...01009/A-look-in-the-EUs-unbalanced-books.html
> 
> My reason for voting OUT was that I had read this book, and nothing to do with ''liking or ''disliking'' foreigners (in fact I studied modern languages at university). Having read this book I believe that:
> 
> a) we should, of course, help genuine refugees
> 
> a) controlled immigration (not a free-for-all) can clearly be of benefit to this country


----------



## havoc

A speech is only a speech. Words are easy.


----------



## samuelsmiles

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, stockwellCat:
> 
> Page 200, Post 3985 you liked my post, I think that's what noushka05 is going on about.
> 
> /QUOTE
> 
> ==================================================
> 
> QUOTE, SamuelSmiles:
> 
> Could you please confirm / clarify (or not) that there were either big letters, very big pictures (or a combination of both)
> within your post, and were any of them (or none) highlighted, italicized or bolded?
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> here ya go, Sam Smiles - hav a guid look fer yersen.
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out.426589/page-200#post-1064757480
> 
> .
> .
> .


Oh, bless you LFL.

I just couldn't find the time myself to tirelessly trawl back through this thread. I'm so glad you _*did*_, though


----------



## samuelsmiles

_*MASSIVE PICTURE ALERT. *_


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## Calvine

Redoing the above post .


DT said:


> Why do the remainers continue to label those wanting to to leave xenophobic?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...01009/A-look-in-the-EUs-unbalanced-books.html

@DT: I decided to vote out after I read this book some time before the referendum. (I studied modern languages so nothing to do with hating foreigners or Europe itself.) Having read the book, and voted out, I still believe that:

a) we should, of course, help _genuine_ refugees
b) I fail to see how anyone can support _uncontrolled_ immigration as advocated by Frau Merkel; but think that _controlled_ immigration (as opposed to a free-for-all) can benefit the country enormously.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> _*MASSIVE PICTURE ALERT. *_


Massive Picture Alert 2 (can't do large print on the phone)


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles said:


> I just couldn't find the time myself to tirelessly trawl back through this thread. I'm so glad you _*did*_, though


@samuelsmiles: you must be thrilled to bits; I know I would be.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Ireland must be dancing too...
> View attachment 298647
> 
> 
> CitiBank is moving too...


See the news report you published about Barclays was wrong and has since been rubbished by Barclays themselves because the real story is this @cheekyscrip

*Barclays to keep global HQ in London no matter outcome of Brexit*

26th January 2017
Barclays has reiterated that it will keep its global headquarters in London even after the UK leaves the EU, in response to media reports that it was planning on establishing a European headquarters in Dublin.

Earlier in the day, Bloomberg had reported that Barclays had settled on Dublin for its main hub inside the EU after Brexit.

"The idea that a decision has been taken is not correct," a spokesman for Barclays told _The Independent_.

He said that Barclays' global headquarters would remain in London regardless of the outcome of Brexit negotiations.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/barclays-to-keep-global-hq-in-london-no-matter-outcome-of-brexit-a7547546.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> I decided to vote out after I read this book some time before the referendum. (I studied modern languages so nothing to do with hating foreigners or Europe itself.) Having read the book, and voted out, I still believe that:
> 
> a) we should, of course, help _genuine_ refugees
> b) I fail to see how anyone can support _uncontrolled_ immigration as advocated by Frau Merkel; but think that _controlled_ immigration (as opposed to a free-for-all) can benefit the country enormously.


EU doesn't stop us controlling immigration. The government does not control immigration using the tools available. Subtle difference and the lie you have brought into.



stockwellcat said:


> @Goblin Come on you haven't answered this question and us leave voters are well within our rights to get an answer. Come on @Goblin. I am asking you @Goblin because you keep playing the xeonphobia and race card calling leavers this because leavers want the UK to leave the EU. @DT is well within there rights to ask the question they asked and @DT, me and the rest of the leave voters deserve an answer.


You stockwellcat are pathetic. Unlike you who runs instead of answer, my answer is plainly written and even with a picture so you could understand.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> EU doesn't stop us controlling immigration. The government does not control immigration using the tools available. Subtle difference and the lie you have brought into.
> 
> You stockwellcat are pathetic. Unlike you who runs instead of answer, my answer is plainly written and even with a picture so you could understand.


But you still insist on calling all leave voters xenophobic which is far from the truth.

You have a very aggressive attitude towards leave supporters especially me. Get to grips man. It's not the end of the world you know leaving the EU.

I have nothing further to say to you personally @Goblin because if I do I might get banned.


----------



## Calvine

@Goblin: I mentioned immigration simply because, in case you missed it, DT asked why Leave voters were branded ''xenophobic'' and was pointing out that MY vote was nothing to do with immigration. It was to do with the corruption within the EU. I have not_ bought _(not ''brought'' as you put it) into any lies.
Try not to be sarcastic as it won't really work with me...and I doubt @stockwellcat gives a monkey's that you consider their posts ''pathetic''.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> But you still insist on calling all leave voters xenophobic which is far from the truth.


As a group, yes it is, although yes it is a generalisation. The reason for leave winning the vote was based on immigrants. That is what most people voted against.


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> @Goblin: I mentioned immigration simply because, in case you missed it, DT asked why Leave voters were branded ''xenophobic'' and was pointing out that MY vote was nothing to do with immigration. It was to do with the corruption within the EU. I have not_ bought _(not ''brought'' as you put it) into any lies.
> Try not to be sarcastic as it won't really work with me...and I doubt @stockwellcat gives a monkey's that you consider their posts ''pathetic''.


Ah, corruption of the EU, yet obviously that means our own government is not corrupt. Instead of pushing for change we simply run away giving more power to our own government to walk over people's civil rights. Okay...

Instead the corruption of the EU is so great it can't achieve anything.. oh wait, it's does as corruption is not endemic. You do have people exploiting the system, Farage a great example.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## stuaz

Goblin said:


> As a group, yes it is, although yes it is a generalisation. *The reason for leave winning the vote was based on immigrants. That is what most people voted against.*


Out of interest how do you know that? I didn't vote leave, but curious where that information is from.


----------



## Happy Paws2

We are just going from the corrupt EU to a corrupt tory party, who just think about themselfs and money and couldn't careless about about the average people of this country.


----------



## Goblin

stuaz said:


> Out of interest how do you know that? I didn't vote leave, but curious where that information is from.


Multiple sources and polls from the around the referendum time when question why people voted leave. The other main reason was soveriegnty, which again was a lie as we have never lost it. Nationalism and xenophobia were the two greatest reasons for people to vote leave. Economy actually had very little impact in comparison.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Farage is the breaking point.
> 
> So government wants cheap labour for jobs unwanted? But when those people need housing and schools and health care it is an outrage?
> Employ robots. With solar panels.


May I remind you


Goblin said:


> Ah, corruption of the EU, yet obviously that means our own government is not corrupt. Instead of pushing for change we simply run away giving more power to our own government to walk over people's civil rights. Okay...
> 
> Instead the corruption of the EU is so great it can't achieve anything.. oh wait, it's does as corruption is not endemic. You do have people exploiting the system, Farage a great example.


The fact that the EU of never properly balanced it's books is of little importance then, yes I am aware that accountants have claimed that this is jusified, but I wonder what the outcome would be if this were a company we were dealing with, or a sole trading even, I know when we were in business every last penny was accounted for. And I also know,when I worked in a bank we had to balance to the penny, everyone had to help too, if were were down we had to find the,reason.


----------



## 1290423

Sorry I dont know what went wrong in the post above but it was happy cause that I meant to quote


----------



## stuaz

Goblin said:


> Multiple sources and polls from the around the referendum time when question why people voted leave. The other main reason was soveriegnty, which again was a lie as we have never lost it. Nationalism and xenophobia were the two greatest reasons for people to vote leave. Economy actually had very little impact in comparison.


Ah polls. Not the most accurate source nowadays. I don't doubt that 'some' people voted to leave for those two reasons but I don't think it was the majority reason for everyone.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Just watched TM's speech yesterday in the US.
> 
> Fantastic. Standing Ovation after Standing Ovation.
> 
> No it wasn't all about Brexit.


These are _Americans_ you're talking about - I've known them to give a standing ovation to a song about _Tupperware... _



DT said:


> Wells lets face it, our hospitals, our schools, our housing are all at breaking point! Arguably whether that is due to lack of spending by this government the previous governments or the increase in population is imaterial, if we keep allowing free movement where are we going to house all these people? How are we going to treat them if they become ill? We cannot conjur up houses and hospitals overnight. Besides, look at the amount of homeless there are on the streets now!


I can't speak for schools or housing, but our hospitals are _not _at breaking point because of freedom of movement within the EU. There are plenty of reasons why it is, but immigrants are not one of them - in fact, immigrants are one of the main reasons the NHS is still _going_.

And yes, I do have insiders in the NHS - many of them.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> May I remind you
> 
> The fact that the EU of never properly balanced it's books is of little importance then,  yes I am aware that accountants have claimed that this is jusified, but I wonder what the outcome would be if this were a company we were dealing with, or a sole trading even, I know when we were in business every last penny was accounted for. And I also know,when I worked in a bank we had to balance to the penny, everyone had to help too, if were were down we had to find the,reason.


http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/AR2014.aspx

Let's look at some of the "corruption", the UKIP party and associate ADDE group used the money incorrectly. 150K for mispending assisting Farage to become an MP for example, 400K for mispending of EU funds diverted for Brexit campaigning, although that was denied by the UKIP.

So tell me DT, what is better, money to be available and try to recoup losses when it's seen to be misspent or have so much red tape money is not available?


----------



## Goblin

stuaz said:


> Ah polls. Not the most accurate source nowadays. I don't doubt that 'some' people voted to leave for those two reasons but I don't think it was the majority reason for everyone.


Ah, but the referendum itself was constitutionally simply an opinion poll. So if they are not accurate where does that place May's mandate?


----------



## stuaz

Goblin said:


> Ah, but the referendum itself was constitutionally simply an opinion poll. So if they are not accurate where does that place May's mandate?


You can't compare the referendum to your polls taken on reason why people voted leave.

The referendum while not legally binding is used an an indicator of public opinion for the government.

The difference is the numbers. The referendum was voted on by millions. Was your poll of the the same or similar quantity of numbers?


----------



## 1290423

stuaz said:


> You can't compare the referendum to your polls taken on reason why people voted leave.
> 
> The referendum while not legally binding is used an an indicator of public opinion for the government.
> 
> The difference is the numbers. The referendum was voted on by millions. Was your poll of the the same or similar quantity of numbers?


Please remind me how much did Cameron spend on this non binding referendum? leaflets he had printed and delivered to Every Home in the UK,


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/AR2014.aspx
> 
> Let's look at some of the "corruption", the UKIP party and associate ADDE group used the money incorrectly. 150K for mispending assisting Farage to become an MP for example, 400K for mispending of EU funds diverted for Brexit campaigning, although that was denied by the UKIP.
> 
> So tell me DT, what is better, money to be available and try to recoup losses when it's seen to be misspent or have so much red tape money is not available?


How about you tell me where the money came from that was funding UKIP


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> 400K for mispending of EU funds diverted for Brexit campaigning,


@DT: you beat me to it! Let's conveniently forget about the £9million Cameron spent on ''Remain'' literature, shall we? He (Dave) reckoned 34p per household, but by my reckoning that would not even pay the postage, let alone printing and sundry overheads. So I guess you can add another few millions to the bill. Maybe even double it.


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> @DT: you beat me to it! Let's conveniently forget about the £9million Cameron spent on ''Remain'' literature, shall we? He (Dave) reckoned 34p per household, but by my reckoning that would not even pay the postage, let alone printing and sundry overheads. So I guess you can add another few millions to the bill. Maybe even double it.


And dont forget the return postage that households returned, reams of the stuff was returned using the freepost address.E
But we all know it wasn't free someone pays.


----------



## 1290423

Jesthar said:


> These are _Americans_ you're talking about - I've known them to give a standing ovation to a song about _Tupperware... _
> 
> I can't speak for schools or housing, but our hospitals are _not _at breaking point because of freedom of movement within the EU. There are plenty of reasons why it is, but immigrants are not one of them - in fact, immigrants are one of the main reasons the NHS is still _going_.
> 
> And yes, I do have insiders in the NHS - many of them.


Awh I know where you are going that old chestnut, the rise in the aging population , especially during the colder mothers coupled with the cut in social care, fraid we have always had an aging population and winters have always been the same.
How about we try it another way, this government, nor previous ones have built hospitals to cater for the growth in the population, neither have doctors surgeries employed adequant quantaties of doctors either, infact they have gone the opposite way, many doctors choosing ti work parttime, for every patient that registers at a surgery that sugergy gets an allowance, where does that money come from? .............. ......... .......... if the doctors are being paid extra for each person in their practice that money comes from somewhere!
Pay a visit to a maternity ward and tell me why all those beds are full


----------



## stuaz

DT said:


> Please remind me how much did Cameron spend on this non binding referendum? leaflets he had printed and delivered to Every Home in the UK,


I have no idea, millions? Whats your point exactly?


----------



## 1290423

stuaz said:


> I have no idea, millions? Whats your point exactly?


I was quoting in reply to someone elses post and it went wrong sorry stuaz it wasnt meant to be you I quoted.
Off to hospital now so no time to look whos


----------



## stuaz

DT said:


> I was quoting in reply to someone elses post and it went wrong sorry stuaz it wasnt meant to be you I quoted.
> Off to hospital now so no time to look whos


 Ok no worries, I just got really confused! 

Good luck at the hospital.


----------



## Jesthar

DT said:


> *Awh I know where you are going that old chestnut,* the rise in the aging population , especially during the colder mothers coupled with the cut in social care, fraid we have always had an aging population and winters have always been the same.
> How about we try it another way, this government, nor previous ones have built hospitals to cater for the growth in the population, neither have doctors surgeries employed adequant quantaties of doctors either, infact they have gone the opposite way, many doctors choosing ti work parttime, for every patient that registers at a surgery that sugergy gets an allowance, where does that money come from? .............. ......... .......... if the doctors are being paid extra for each person in their practice that money comes from somewhere!
> Pay a visit to a maternity ward and tell me why all those beds are full


No. You _really _don't.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> @DT: you beat me to it! Let's conveniently forget about the £9million Cameron spent on ''Remain'' literature, shall we? He (Dave) reckoned 34p per household, but by my reckoning that would not even pay the postage, let alone printing and sundry overheads. So I guess you can add another few millions to the bill. Maybe even double it.


Yes, I agree Cameron's leaflets were a waste of money. The whole referendum was a waste of money and should never have happened at all, let alone at a time of austerity.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I agree Cameron's leaflets were a waste of money. The whole referendum was a waste of money and should never have happened at all, let alone at a time of austerity.


Funniest thing is Tories would have won without referendum! They were against Miliband and a gravestone.
Or fruitcake Farage( he admitted to being a fruitcake..on BBC1).


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Funniest thing is Tories would have won without referendum! They were against Miliband and a gravestone.
> Or fruitcake Farage( he admitted to being a fruitcake..on BBC1).


Now you'd think Farage has taken over the Tory party. Even some in Labour, Corbyn being a good example, are succumbing to Farage through fear of him.

Incredible how someone, not even elected as an MP, can have so much influence over UK politics. Likewise with a certain Australian media tycoon and now Trump too...


----------



## havoc

DT said:


> Pay a visit to a maternity ward and tell me why all those beds are full


Because people have babies? Just a guess.
The population is aging in that a higher percentage of the total are old and that's a trend which is set to continue for a while. It's likely to change when the current generation of children and teenagers grow up because lifespan could be lowered if we don't stop the trend to obesity and associated disease.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Now you'd think Farage has taken over the Tory party. Even some in Labour, Corbyn being a good example, are succumbing to Farage through fear of him.
> 
> Incredible how someone, not even elected as an MP, can have so much influence over UK politics. Likewise with a certain Australian media tycoon and now Trump too...


OMG the conspiracy theory now


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Now you'd think Farage has taken over the Tory party. Even some in Labour, Corbyn being a good example, are succumbing to Farage through fear of him.
> 
> Incredible how someone, not even elected as an MP, can have so much influence over UK politics. Likewise with a certain Australian media tycoon and now Trump too...


Because he blames " them". The others. Hitler's rhetoric.
It is like reading "Mein Kampf".

Scary. 
Hate breeds hate.

Other nations also have their pride...
Hard to understand that in country that during EU reached such unemployment and such growth of wages EU workers could be accused of stealing jobs or undercutting the wages!!!!

Or blamed for insufficient infrastructure. So British government expected they would not need health care or education?
But two millions Brits in EU have them?

Now when the whole free world turns away in disgust our PM embraces the Orange Bully.

Congratulations Brexit.
Putin is first to applaud.

You should be really proud.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> OMG the conspiracy theory now


Let's face it, the Tories and UKIP are the same thing nowadays. I never thought the party could move to the right of Thatcher.

I did criticise Labour too!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Trump just said he was in Scotland when Brexit happened and he saw how people rejoiced. .
In Scotland.

Lalaland...


Then talking about the trade...with rising dollar and fallen pound ...
Who do you think reaps the profits?


----------



## Jesthar

cheekyscrip said:


> Trump just said he was in Scotland when Brexit happened and he saw how people rejoiced. .
> In Scotland.


Last time he claimed that (via tweet), the Scots wasted no time in putting him in his place...

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/twitter-battle-scotland-vs-trump.429287/


----------



## leashedForLife

.
SamS,
I'm not sure Y "finding that post" would be so difficult -
it took me 30-seconds, using the pg# & post#, to find it, then click the post# & copy the 'permalink', hit the BACK button, & paste the link into a new reply.
.
Heck, it took longer to *write* that than to *do* it. 
"Finding a specific post" isn't rocket surgery, nor drudgery, esp'ly with both a pg# & a post#.

Cheers.
.
.
.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> I can't speak for schools or housing, but our hospitals are _not _at breaking point because of freedom of movement within the EU. There are plenty of reasons why it is, but immigrants are not one of them - in fact, immigrants are one of the main reasons the NHS is still _going_.
> 
> And yes, I do have insiders in the NHS - many of them.


That's really funny, thank you for the laugh. If you are actually being serious would you care to to elaborate?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> That's really funny, thank you for the laugh. If you are actually being serious would you care to to elaborate?


This thread has 217 pages and no point to ask anyone to elaborate!!!! It was done and done again...read the thread if you care...
@Jeshtar and others discussed it in detail.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## 1290423

Look at it whichever way you like, write it down, shout it out ,
52 48 irrespective of the size of the victory it is still a victory?
March and protest as much as you like, we are not listening.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Wouldn't it be up to the countries involved to grant the visas ? I think the countries would do what benefits them financially , at one time retired folk would spend the winter in Spanish hotels that would other wise be half empty so it benefited both parties.
> 
> I really hope it won't be the case that you cannot have your dream retirement .
> 
> Not wanting to be apart of something doesn't mean to say you think you're superior , there will always be those who think they are superior and always be countries who think they are superior to other countries.
> 
> I'm happy to live in the UK , I like the changing weather , its boring if the weathers always the same , the beautiful scenery . I would've liked to have traveled more countries but either luck of funds or bad health have limited me . Ive never been to Spain and I wouldnt go due to bull fighting .


Yes, you guessed right, we were in Spain! There's a lot more to the country than bullfighting. I wouldn't want to be within a kilometre of one.

It's a horrible irony it's apparently a tourist attraction, many travel far and wide to see this disgusting spectacle.

Attitudes are changing, but not quickly enough. Like foxhunting in the UK it has its supporters, but many are against.

As for your other comments I have to respectfully disagree on many issues. Some leave voters (including those I know personally) believe nothing will change as regards to free movement for UK citizens within the EU yet believe and support free movement of EU citizens in to the UK will stop! They are blind to what could happen and won't be prepared for visas and other possible complications that could result following Brexit, having been used to the relative ease over the years to travel to such destinations.

Besides the overall cost of travel could become prohibitive for many on lower incomes. This might be good news for Butlins and Pontins but programmes like, "Bargain Brits in the Sun" may become a thing in the past.

There's nothing yet known about the long term future for UK residents in the EU and vice versa. I imagine everyone may have to apply for visas. Some will be successful, others may not and could face deportation.

Tourism could be affected on both sides. Many potential visitors to the UK may choose to visit elsewhere as they may believe, "Brits hate foreigners and all want to leave the EU". This isn't true of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is the impression they're getting from the UK.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Yes, you guessed right, we were in Spain! There's a lot more to the country than bullfighting. I wouldn't want to be within a kilometre of one.
> 
> It's a horrible irony it's apparently a tourist attraction, many travel far and wide to see this disgusting spectacle.
> 
> Attitudes are changing, but not quickly enough. Like foxhunting in the UK it has its supporters, but many are against.
> 
> As for your other comments I have to respectfully disagree on many issues. Some leave voters (including those I know personally) believe nothing will change as regards to free movement for UK citizens within the EU yet believe and support free movement of EU citizens in to the UK will stop! They are blind to what could happen and won't be prepared for visas and other possible complications that could result following Brexit, having been used to the relative ease over the years to travel to such destinations.
> 
> Besides the overall cost of travel could become prohibitive for many on lower incomes. This might be good news for Butlins and Pontins but programmes like, "Bargain Brits in the Sun" may become a thing in the past.
> 
> There's nothing yet known about the long term future for UK residents in the EU and vice versa. I imagine everyone may have to apply for visas. Some will be successful, others may not and could face deportation.
> 
> Tourism could be affected on both sides. Many potential visitors to the UK may choose to visit elsewhere as they may believe, "Brits hate foreigners and all want to leave the EU". This isn't true of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is the impression they're getting from the UK.


My friends went to Germany to find that if they spoke English no one was in the hurry to attend...so they spoke Spanish...which got staff moving but then they could not communicate!!!
They were told to learn German!!!

I must say I am a bit apprehensive about going to UK though I speak decent English.
Might have to go in summer, but at least it is London.

Never felt like that before.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yes, you guessed right, we were in Spain! There's a lot more to the country than bullfighting. I wouldn't want to be within a kilometre of one.
> 
> It's a horrible irony it's apparently a tourist attraction, many travel far and wide to see this disgusting spectacle.
> 
> Attitudes are changing, but not quickly enough. Like foxhunting in the UK it has its supporters, but many are against.


Sorry , didnt mean to make it about you . Its about me , its one of the many cruel practises I have been against over the years and supported organisations who are trying to stop it .
Yes , attutides are certainly changing but unfortunately the Spanish government will not allow it to be banned .

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/spain-b...onia-overruled-constitutional-court-heritage/

* "MADRID* -- Spain's top court on Thursday overruled a local ban against bullfighting in the powerful northeastern region of Catalonia, saying it violated a national law protecting the spectacle.

The Constitutional Court ruled that Catalan authorities generally could regulate such public spectacles, and even ban them, but in this case the national parliament's ruling that bullfighting is part of Spain's heritage must prevail. "



> As for your other comments I have to respectfully disagree on many issues. Some leave voters (including those I know personally) believe nothing will change as regards to free movement for UK citizens within the EU yet believe and support free movement of EU citizens in to the UK will stop! They are blind to what could happen and won't be prepared for visas and other possible complications that could result following Brexit, having been used to the relative ease over the years to travel to such destinations.


I'm not saying they will let anyone in with out visas. That was just example I gave of how perhaps UK people holidaying and living in Spain benefit their economy and would they want to stop that by not letting UK folk live their in the future .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Sorry , didnt mean to make it about you . Its about me , its one of the many cruel practises I have been against over the years and supported organisations who are trying to stop it .
> Yes , attutides are certainly changing but unfortunately the Spanish government will not allow it to be banned .
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/spain-b...onia-overruled-constitutional-court-heritage/
> 
> * "MADRID* -- Spain's top court on Thursday overruled a local ban against bullfighting in the powerful northeastern region of Catalonia, saying it violated a national law protecting the spectacle.
> 
> The Constitutional Court ruled that Catalan authorities generally could regulate such public spectacles, and even ban them, but in this case the national parliament's ruling that bullfighting is part of Spain's heritage must prevail. "
> 
> I'm not saying they will let anyone in with out visas. That was just example I gave of how perhaps UK people holidaying and living in Spain benefit their economy and would they want to stop that by not letting UK folk live their in the future .


Yes, I agree with your comments on the Spanish government refusing to outlaw bullfighting. We can only hope things will change in the future .

It's ironic how the current UK government are keen to legalise foxhunting. I fear it could make a comeback.

Any "blood sport" is despicable. It has no place in society.

Being a pet forum where we love animals I'm sure this is something we can all agree on.


----------



## KittenKong

How ironic is this?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38779669









The "threat" of Turkey's " impending joining of the EU with much of their people coming into the UK", was highly instrumental in the Vote Leave victory.

And will they be seeking freedom of movement in order to get a trade deal?

Interesting- May visiting Turkey for a post Brexit trade deal confirms another Leave campaign lie.

She wouldn't want to seek a trade deal with a country about to join the EU would she?!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> How ironic is this?
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38779669
> View attachment 298782
> 
> 
> *The "threat" of Turkey's " impending joining of the EU *with much of their people coming into the UK", was highly instrumental in the Vote Leave victory.
> 
> And will they be seeking freedom of movement in order to get a trade deal?
> 
> Interesting- May visiting Turkey for a post Brexit trade deal confirms another Leave campaign lie.
> 
> She wouldn't want to seek a trade deal with a country about to join the EU would she?!


The EU suspended talks on Turkey joining the EU on 24th November 2016 over the attempted coup back in July 2016.

I have said this before, just because TM is headhunting for trade deals doesn't mean the UK will accept them as the trade deals will need to benefit the UK as well as the country that is offering a trade deal. The UK is planning on implementing a two teir visa system so this does not mean free movement will be included in any free trade deals the UK agrees to. The UK is looking to attract workers to the UK who get a working visa from what has been said so far with no free movement of people.


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Look at it whichever way you like, write it down, shout it out ,
> 52 48 irrespective of the size of the victory it is still a victory?
> March and protest as much as you like, *we are not listening*.


And therein lies the main reason why this subject is still acrimonious and will remain so.

Coming together as a country requires some recognition and accommodation of the views on both (or all) sides, with the sole proviso that the country does indeed leave the EU.


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> And therein lies the main reason why this subject is still acrimonious and will remain so.
> 
> Coming together as a country requires some recognition and accommodation of the views on both (or all) sides, with the sole proviso that the country does indeed leave the EU.


Really! We had a vote, we voted to leave, the sooner people accept that and let teressa may get on with the task in hand without trying to put obstacles in the way the better!
Do you really think if the vote had gone the other way there would have been this commotion?


----------



## KittenKong

And is there any proof all of the 52% who voted leave will agree to TM's proposals to leave the single market? Do they also approve of Trump who'll have a much greater say in UK's affairs?

No doubt some will, but I very much doubt all will.


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> Really! We had a vote, we voted to leave, the sooner people accept that and let teressa may get on with the task in hand without trying to put obstacles in the way the better!
> *Do you really think if the vote had gone the other way there would have been this commotion*?


No, because the country wouldn't be in such a mess and people wouldn't be worrying about the furture.


----------



## KittenKong

Surprise Surprise.....


----------



## KittenKong

DT said:


> Really! We had a vote, we voted to leave, the sooner people accept that and let teressa may get on with the task in hand without trying to put obstacles in the way the better!
> Do you really think if the vote had gone the other way there would have been this commotion?


YES!

Correction: YOU voted to leave, not I so please don't include me in this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Really! We had a vote, we voted to leave, the sooner people accept that and let teressa may get on with the task in hand without trying to put obstacles in the way the better!
> *Do you really think if the vote had gone the other way there would have been this commotion?*


*NO*. Not at all.

Again *NO *there wouldn't have been all this commotion if the referendum went the other way and the UK voted to remain in the EU on the 23rd June 2016.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> YES!
> 
> Correction: YOU voted to leave, not I so please don't include me in this.


Lol! If thats the attitude of the remainers can understand what the commotions about, whats your job love?let me quess, spliting hairs!


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> programmes like, "Bargain Brits in the Sun" may become a thing in the past.


Oh no! Then what would we do for our cultural illumination? I've changed my mind. I vote remain.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Really! We had a vote, we voted to leave, the sooner people accept that and let teressa may get on with the task in hand without trying to put obstacles in the way the better!
> Do you really think if the vote had gone the other way there would have been this commotion?


A General Election would sort all of this commotion out.

Conservatives have had a surge in support over recent months whilst Labours support has rapidly declined in less than 4 days. Set the General Election date up for mid to end of February 2017 or even the start of March 2017 and there's still chance to trigger Article 50 by 31st March 2017.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> A General Election would short this out.
> 
> Conservatives have had a surge in support over recent months whilst Labours support has rapidly declined in less than 4 days. Set this up for mid to end of February 2017 or even the start of March 2017 and there's still chance to trigger Article 50 by 31st March 2017.


But that would be a massive waste of tax payers money.
And yes, I agree you are right, there appears to have been a surge of initially remain voters flocking towards brexit


----------



## Jonescat

stockwellcat said:


> *NO*. Not at all.
> 
> Again *NO *there wouldn't have been all this commotion if the referendum went the other way and the UK voted to remain in the EU on the 23rd June 2016.


I disagree - I think that there would have been an enormous fuss if the vote had gone the other way by the same margin. I think that the Lovely Mr Farage would have not been able to help himself and neither would the extreme right. The thing I am not sure about is whether or not all you sensible out-ers would have agreed with him or not. But it is all speculation.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> That's really funny, thank you for the laugh. If you are actually being serious would you care to to elaborate?


No, I'm not joking. Why would I make jokes about something like that? Would you like to clarify what aspects you would like elaboration on?


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> And punctuating your posts with ''lol'' when they are not funny is somewhat tedious.


So you are reading some of my posts then I should be grateful you haven't criticized me for my [email protected] grammar & poor spelling. Or perhaps they're next on your growing list. LOL


----------



## noushka05

We're reduced to grovelling to racists and despots for trade deals.

Where next North Korea??


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> We're reduced to grovelling to racists and despots for trade deals.
> 
> Where next North Korea??
> 
> View attachment 298839


Makes you wonder about May's own politics, it's coming over more like Le Penn then Thatcher....


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Makes you wonder about May's own politics, it's coming over more like Le Penn then Thatcher....


Absolutely. Principled politicians here & abroad have been strongly condemning the Muslim ban. Not our weak government! #TheresaTheAppeaser

As Greens Molly accurately points out. 'Brexit weakness is luring us to the wrong side of history'.

And history wont judged us lightly. How can anyone be proud of our country now?


----------



## KittenKong

Absolutely. Me thinks things could stir up within the Tory party as we're seeing with Labour under Corbyn.

Earlier this week May cemented her relationship with Trump, endorsing his America.

Apparently Downing Street report May "Does not agree" with Trump over the immigration issue. If that's the case why didn't she say so herself when asked?!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely. Me thinks things could stir up within the Tory party as we're seeing with Labour under Corbyn.
> 
> Earlier this week May cemented her relationship with Trump, endorsing his America.
> 
> Now this!
> View attachment 298843


But Corbyn & the entire Labour party are united on this & are strongly condemning Trump & our government. Or am I misunderstanding you KK?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/AR2014.aspx


And who looks into the anomalies?
Oh that's right.....the ones with their snouts in the trough.
Has any action actually been taken on this suggestion?



Goblin said:


> Let's look at some of the "corruption", the UKIP party and associate ADDE group used the money incorrectly. 150K for mispending assisting Farage to become an MP for example, 400K for mispending of EU funds diverted for Brexit campaigning, although that was denied by the UKIP.


Has any action been taken on this? I can see lots of reports of it going to happen
If it's true then it just proves how ridiculous the EU is, particularly if they took no action


----------



## KittenKong

As far as this matter is concerned Noushka I would agree.

I was referring to the current Corbyn controversy over his Article 50 ruling over Brexit which is rightly unsettling many Labour MPs who'll rightly rebel in this as it comes over as support for May's hard Brexit stance.

In my view and many other pro EU supporters the remotest of apparent support towards May Brexit stance is unacceptable.

What I meant was, I would imagine some moderates in the Tory party will be alarmed at the new friends May is making.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> As far as this matter is concerned Noushka I would agree.
> 
> I was referring to the current Corbyn controversy over his Article 50 ruling over Brexit which is rightly unsettling many Labour MPs who'll rightly rebel in this as it comes over as support for May's hard Brexit stance.
> 
> In my view and many other pro EU supporters the remotest of apparent support towards May Brexit stance is unacceptable.
> 
> What I meant was, I would imagine some moderates in the Tory party will be alarmed at the new friends May is making.


Ahh ok thank you, I get you now 

Don't know if you've seen this already, but this is what Corbyn & Labour MPs should be saying imo. I have a lot of respect for Clive Lewis.



















(he continues )

IF THE GOVT DOES NOT ACCEPT THESE AMENDMENTS, I WILL VOTE AGAINST TRIGGERING ARTICLE 50 AT THE THIRD AND FINAL VOTE.

Bottom line is I'll always do what I think is right for all of the people in our constituency. Not just bits of it - ALL of it. Too many people want to stick two fingers up at the decision made in part by people who'd been forgotten for 40 years.

Whilst middle England revelled in Cool Britannia and an asset bubble boom - these poor souls were being quietly forgotten. Many of them were my friends and family who also voted Leave. I understand why they did it. I dont agree with them but I get it.

And whilst I wont help them pull the trigger of the gun they're holding to their own head I will do my best to coax it down. I wont tell them they're ignorant or stupid and should know better and just let them pull the trigger.

It's grown-up, compassionate politics and I'll stand by it. And if after all of the debate in Parliament we still end up with Tory Hard Brexit I'll vote against.

Labour's amendments will:

i) Allow a meaningful vote in Parliament on the final Brexit deal. Labour's amendment would ensure that the House of Commons has the first say on any proposed deal and that the consent of Parliament would be required before the deal is referred to the European Council and Parliament.

ii) Establish a number of key principles the Government must seek to negotiate during the process, including protecting workers' rights, securing full tariff and impediment free access to the Single Market.

iii) Ensure there is robust and regular Parliamentary scrutiny by requiring the Secretary of State to report to the House at least every two months on the progress being made on negotiations throughout the Brexit process

iv) Guarantee legal rights for EU nationals living in the UK. Labour has repeatedly called for the Government to take this step, and this amendment would ensure EU citizens' rights are not part of the Brexit negotiations.

v) Require the Government to consult regularly with the governments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland throughout Brexit negotiations. Labour's amendment would put the Joint Ministerial Committee (JMC) on a statutory footing and require the UK Government to consult the JMC at least every two months.

vi) Require the Government to publish impact assessments conducted since the referendum of any new proposed trading relationship with the EU. This amendment seeks to ensure there is much greater clarity on the likely impact of the Government's decision to exit the Single Market and seek new relationship with the Customs Union

vii) Ensure the Government must seek to retain all existing EU tax avoidance and evasion measures post-Brexit

Didn't know much about the process, but I've also read this -


----------



## KittenKong

It just goes to show how frightened they are of the press. As far as the press is concerned Corbyn and Labour have no chance anyway so any attempts to please them will be a waste of time.

While I understand what is written it would have been better if Corbyn told May we'll vote against unless you modify your stance and commit yourself to staying in the single market even if this means maintaining free movement then we'll vote for you.

What I fear is Corbyn insisting they vote with the government on her existing agenda and May does what she wants anyway. If this was to happen many Labour voters, remembering 65% of them backed remain, would see this as an unforgivable betrayal.

As a hard pro EU supporter I would accept the EEA compromise.

Many Brexit supporters may argue this isn't what they voted for. Then a complete withdrawal from Europe, only the European Union, wasn't on the voting paper either.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> i) Allow a meaningful vote in Parliament on the final Brexit deal. Labour's amendment would ensure that the House of Commons has the first say on any proposed deal and that the consent of Parliament would be required before the deal is referred to the European Council and Parliament.


 Fair comment


> ii) Establish a number of key principles the Government must seek to negotiate during the process, including protecting workers' rights, securing full tariff and impediment free access to the Single Market.


 The Government has already said on numerous occasions workers rights will be protected even when the UK leaves the EU.


> iii) Ensure there is robust and regular Parliamentary scrutiny by requiring the Secretary of State to report to the House at least every two months on the progress being made on negotiations throughout the Brexit process


The Government has said no running commentary.


> iv) Guarantee legal rights for EU nationals living in the UK. Labour has repeatedly called for the Government to take this step, and this amendment would ensure EU citizens' rights are not part of the Brexit negotiations.


 The Government said this will be discussed as a matter of priority when the negotiations start.


> v) Require the Government to consult regularly with the governments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland throughout Brexit negotiations. Labour's amendment would put the Joint Ministerial Committee (JMC) on a statutory footing and require the UK Government to consult the JMC at least every two months.


 The Government is under no legal obligation to do this as the Supreme Court Justices said last week unanimously in their verdict.


> vi) Require the Government to publish impact assessments conducted since the referendum of any new proposed trading relationship with the EU. This amendment seeks to ensure there is much greater clarity on the likely impact of the Government's decision to exit the Single Market and seek new relationship with the Customs Union


If the UK stays in the Customs Union and Single Market it might as well stay in the EU. The EU have said that if the UK controls it's own borders and limits EU migrants no access to the Single Market as it breaches the 4 freedoms of movement. The Government have already said they want to negotiate a bespoke deal for access to the Customs Union but wants to be able to strike its own trade deals away from the EU.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> So you are reading some of my posts then I should be grateful you haven't criticized me for my [email protected] grammar & poor spelling. Or perhaps they're next on your growing list. LOL


Another unwarranted ''LOL'' for something which is not even vaguely amusing. How boring. I tend to read anything on which I am tagged or quoted; I imagine most people do. Don't you? And I have absolutely no idea what the ''growing list'' you mention is about. List of what? I have no lists at all, not even an ''ignore'' list...not yet anyway.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Fair comment
> The Government has already said on numerous occasions workers rights will be protected even when the UK leaves the EU.
> .


 They are liars SWC. Only 2 weeks ago the tories filibustered a private members bill designed to protect brexited workers' rights. You are allowing yourself to be conned. http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-rights-after-brexit-its-radio-silence-tories


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Another unwarranted ''LOL'' for something which is not even vaguely amusing. How boring. I tend to read anything on which I am tagged or quoted; I imagine most people do. Don't you? And I have absolutely no idea what the ''growing list'' you mention is about. List of what? I have no lists at all, not even an ''ignore'' list...not yet anyway.


That one was a sarcastic LOL

OK, glad we've cleared things up


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> They are liars SWC. Only 2 weeks ago the tories filibustered a private members bill designed to protect brexited workers' rights. You are allowing yourself to be conned. http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-rights-after-brexit-its-radio-silence-tories
> 
> View attachment 298849


Ermm Who's being conned at the moment. Labour MPs as Corbyn has instated a 3 line whip to make sure Article 50 gets through. Corbyn is the liar, one minute supports remaining in the EU the next supports Brexit.

Did Liam Fox really say this or is it the press stirring the pot of sh*te again?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Ermm Who's being conned at the moment. Labour MPs as Corbyn has instated a 3 line whip to make sure Article 50 gets through. Corbyn is the liar, one minute supports remaining in the EU the next supports Brexit.
> 
> Did Liam Fox really say this or is it the press stirring the pot of sh*te again?


Deflection, deflection. If I disagree with Corbyn I criticize him


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="noushka05, post: 1064762420, member: 
iv) Guarantee legal rights for EU nationals living in the UK. Labour has repeatedly called for the Government to take this step, and this amendment would ensure EU citizens' rights are not part of the Brexit negotiations.[/QUOTE]

This in itself could prove controversial and divisive in that existing citizens must prove they entered the UK at a particular time where future potential migrants are refused entrance- and vice versa of course.

It could be argued as well a friend has retired abroad and is allowed to stay, but because of Brexit I wouldn't be allowed to when my time comes.

This is not my own personal view on the matter but can see such divisions occurring.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Deflection, deflection. If I disagree with Corbyn I criticize him


Not deflection.

Before critising others look what is happening in the political party you support first.

Go on I dare you critize Corbyn? After all he won't see your comment and probably doesn't even know who you are


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 298853
> View attachment 298854


They are being very wishful here.

Just before Christmas the Government had an overwhelming majority vote to trigger Article 50. Only one, yes one conservative MP voted against the Government and that was Ken Clarke.

The press are stoking alot of rubbish at the moment. Watch the debates live on Tuesday and Wednesday this week on Freeview channel 131 to see what really happens and not what the press are predicting will happen.


----------



## FeelTheBern

noushka05 said:


> So you are reading some of my posts then I should be grateful you haven't criticized me for my [email protected] grammar & poor spelling. Or perhaps they're next on your growing list. LOL


Criticizing people for their poor use of grammar and spelling is my job.


----------



## 1290423

I blame labour for the state they are in,I mean seriously,they ask their members to picktheir leader when most of them can hardly pick their nose.

And seriously look at the clamber for new membership to the labour party prior to corbyn being selected. Did labour really believe those members had the Labour Party's best interest at heart


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> No, because the country wouldn't be in such a mess and people wouldn't be worrying about the furture.


And we havent been in a mess for years then?


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> And we havent been in a mess for years then?


Yes, but it's going to get worse.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have just noticed that @MoggyBaby the author of the thread hasn't been around for sometime. I do hope @MoggyBaby is ok?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well Corbyn stands his ground on his 3 line whip:

*Corbyn warns shadow cabinet on Brexit vote rebellion*

Jeremy Corbyn has warned shadow cabinet ministers not to expect to stay in their jobs if they vote against starting the process of leaving the EU.

The Labour leader told ITV it was "impossible" for members of his top team to remain in place if they rebelled against a three-line whip.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38788440?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Really! *We had a vote, we voted to leave, the sooner people accept that *and let teressa may get on with the task in hand without trying to put obstacles in the way the better!
> Do you really think if the vote had gone the other way there would have been this commotion?


I only posted two sentences, but you appear to have missed one of them.



Arnie83 said:


> Coming together as a country requires some recognition and accommodation of the views on both (or all) sides, *with the sole proviso that the country does indeed leave the EU*.


We are leaving the EU. I accept that. I may think it is economically stupid, socially regressive and evolutionarily disappointing, but leaving, we are.

What nobody voted for, because it wasn't on the ballot paper, was what it meant to leave, and there are many interpretations of that. Some think we should leave but retain membership of the single market and customs union: that is still 'leaving'. Some think we should cut all ties with all things EU, trade on WTO terms with the 500 million strong market 25 miles away from our shores and instead attempt to strike trade deals with the orange lunatic across the Atlantic or our friends in New Zealand, half a planet away and with a population half the size of London. That is also 'leaving'.

A sensible government will consider all options in their negotiations as we leave and negotiate what they think is best for the British people before taking it to Parliament. If they adopt the latter extreme, as espoused by the Redwood / IDS types on the Tory far right, then we are going to end up not only in the soft and smelly, but with a society split down the middle for decades.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexiters be proud of your leader, he is getting better and better...sorry for repeating it on another thread ..
At least Trump will have a hand to hold to...


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexiters be proud of your leader, he is getting better and better...sorry for repeating it on another thread ..
> At least Trump will have a hand to hold to...
> View attachment 298935


Good man.


----------



## Jonescat

Good man?

As in doubleplusungood? No other way I can make sense of that statement.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Good man.


And found likeminded best friend. Even better man. More orange. Bravo.


----------



## noushka05

....https://www.ft.com/content/fde7616a-e6cf-11e6-967b-c88452263daf


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
if the UK thinks the EU is a sinking ship, jumping onto Trumpling's self-powered kayak is suicidal.
He makes grandiose promises, but has a long & well-documented history of failing to deliver, & even throwing his stunned partners over the side.
A real-estate developer who has repeatedly failed to pay legally incurred debts to designers, contractors, & sub-contractors will only stiff bigger creditors with bigger debts.
.
If U cannot be trusted in little things, U surely cannot be trusted in larger things.
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

TM will spend millions on DT "state visit" while new cuts to NHS are being announced.

Visit which only confirm our status as sidekicks to the muslim- hater and definitely increases the risk of terrorist attacks on Britain.

Now the free world is united in repelling that man and his abhorred policies we are on the wrong side of the wall.
We are going for Farage's vision of Britain.

Is this what majority of people really want?
Or some are waking up to Brexit Reality ?

After all Trump is just doing what Farage promised.

But hopefully Trump might be gone and walls demolished.

We though would be stuck with Brexit.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> We are going for Farage's vision of Britain.


In your opinion



cheekyscrip said:


> Or some are waking up to Brexit Reality ?


To your reality, no


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> In your opinion


What makes you think the UK isn't adopting Farage's vision of Britain?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Th


rona said:


> In your opinion
> 
> To your reality, no


Farage wanted hard Brexit. We are getting the crash one. 
In reality. Mine. Yours. We all go there, just some willingly.
Trump says " Brexit will be wonderful thing for Britain ".
How much do you trust him?

Or is it wonderful thing for Trump?

Do you really think that Trump's wish to dismantle EU and NATO are brilliant for Britain?

Do you really think that our deal with DT would benefit Britain more than our deal with EU?

Britain is seen as Trump's ally. Especially after TM's visit right now.

Trump just managed to upset China, Pacific nations, Latin America, all muslim countries, Canada and EU.
Not bad for ten days in the office.

His other best friend is Putin.

That is not my reality. That is as it is.
I am truly worried.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
alliance with a bigoted bully, one who has a rich history of retaliation & nursing a grudge for years,
doesn't sound like an intelligent choice by a multicultural, polyglot nation.
.
I'd agree that cuddling up to Trumpster increases the risk of being perceived as backing his xenophobic, racist, & sexist agenda:
to maximize profits at the expense of the nation & the planet, to prioritize a nationalism unsurpassed in 3 generations, & to disempower anyone who isn't white-skinned & male, preferably a millionaire working for a Fortune-500 corporation or at least self-employed as a capitalist, owning a sizable business employing others' labor.
Artists, creators, designers, co-op members, & other non-suit, non-corporative persons are not welcome.
The suits are in the catbird seats, & the rest of us are outside, peering thru knotholes in the fence.

.
.
.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> What makes you think the UK isn't adopting Farage's vision of Britain?


There has been nothing apart from a lack in judgement on the Trump state visit haste to indicate that to me


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexiters be proud of your leader, he is getting better and better...sorry for repeating it on another thread ..


Nigel Farage cheered on Loose Women as he defends strong border controls - Westmonster


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Nigel Farage cheered on Loose Women as he defends strong border controls - Westmonster


Oh..absolutely...he is not a closet Trump fan...
He absolutely loves the idea of banning people because of their country of origin.
Even if we happen not to be at war with that country. Even if they did nothing to us like say Egypt or Somalia...

That will make Britain more global than ever and trade will prosper.

By the way if we want to have better control we can always keep closer eye on the coast?
The border control? We are not in Shengen and it is up to us, EU does not limit the number of patrol boats or lorry scans...

Trump is really attention seeking and fist shaking because he could just decide on tighter checks on new visa applications etc...

Now he just played to IS hands giving them the best example that America ( and their allies) are at war with muslim world.

Do you realise that this could end in most horrendous retaliation?
It is pure enticing hatred, and does not make America or Britain safer at all.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> How much do you trust him?


Not at all . Not relevant though.



cheekyscrip said:


> Do you really think that Trump's wish to dismantle EU and NATO are brilliant for Britain?


He's no longer talking of leaving NATO now he's had a chat with Theresa
The dismantling of the EU has now nothing to do with the UK, it's up to them



cheekyscrip said:


> Do you really think that our deal with DT would benefit Britain more than our deal with EU?


I'm not sure, but I'm still sure the best thing for the UK is to be out of the EU

I can't quite understand why Trump and Brexit are classed as the same


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Not at all . Not relevant though.
> 
> He's no longer talking of leaving NATO now he's had a chat with Theresa
> The dismantling of the EU has now nothing to do with the UK, it's up to them
> 
> I'm not sure, but I'm still sure the best thing for the UK is to be out of the EU
> 
> I can't quite understand why Trump and Brexit are classed as the same


Rhetoric? Mentality? Walls? Ideology? Make America/ Britain great?

Trump speaks Farage.

His attitude to Mexico and Farage's attitude to EU workers...spot the difference..

Why do you think they bonded so well?

No it is not the same as unless Trump becomes the dictator Americans would get rid of him.
Not so Brexit.

Under unstable egotist like DT war is very possible and it would be most stupid to be bound to him by any deals etc...
He is dangerous. 
Siding with him is dangerous.
Britain out of EU would be forced to side with him and oh boy..does he know it!!!

TM most strongly sided with DT and she did the talking about NATO etc...he promised nothing and basically closed her mouth shut on Mexico.

More cuts on NHS announced fir 2018/19...
While we have money for " state visit".


----------



## rona

Farage has no power here. He's an irrelevant nuisance that just muddies the water

I see no correlation between UK and USA in stance at the moment


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Farage has no power here. He's an irrelevant nuisance that just muddies the water
> 
> I see no correlation between UK and USA in stance at the moment


I do. Maybe from the distance it is very clear. Farage is now spoken by our PM and USA president. Clearly the reasoning is the same.
Brexit tragically influenced US election and our Farage planted all his slogans there.
That tiny difference which tipped the scales and helped this man to win..
The same lies that that made Brexit win...


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> I do. Maybe from the distance it is very clear


Or through fear it's blinkered. Anyway, not getting into this with you again. We will never agree and it's pointless.

I understand your fear and from there it may be warranted, but from here it still seems the best way to me


----------



## KittenKong

leashedForLife said:


> .
> alliance with a bigoted bully, one who has a rich history of retaliation & nursing a grudge for years,
> doesn't sound like an intelligent choice by a multicultural, polyglot nation.
> .
> I'd agree that cuddling up to Trumpster increases the risk of being perceived as backing his xenophobic, racist, & sexist agenda:
> to maximize profits at the expense of the nation & the planet, to prioritize a nationalism unsurpassed in 3 generations, & to disempower anyone who isn't white-skinned & male, preferably a millionaire working for a Fortune-500 corporation or at least self-employed as a capitalist, owning a sizable business employing others' labor.
> Artists, creators, designers, co-op members, & other non-suit, non-corporative persons are not welcome.
> The suits are in the catbird seats, & the rest of us are outside, peering thru knotholes in the fence.
> 
> .
> .
> .


I dread to think what other countries now think of the UK and US.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Or through fear it's blinkered. Anyway, not getting into this with you again. We will never agree and it's pointless.
> 
> I understand your fear and from there it may be warranted, but from here it still seems the best way to me


Wish you were right and I were wrong.

But as it is, and honestly I can trust the knowledge of our company directors it is not a good outlook for Brexit Britain.
Nothing like what you hope for.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I dread to think what other countries now think of the UK and US.


You can well imagine what muslim countries think of that, what other North and South American nations think of that and all TPP nations, plus EU....
Mostly that it is like waging war on muslim.
And everyone is really worried where that will take us.
Us, the sidekicks of the Orange Overcomb.

So we turned our backs on EU to embrace Trump.

World thinks we are a tomato short of a salad.

We had no inflation, growing wages, stable currency, lowest unemployment, good prospects and why we decided to ruin it all?

Anyone remembers?


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> TM will spend millions on DT "state visit" while new cuts to NHS are being announced.


In context, millions is chicken feed. Thank heavens we have a PM with some balls (as it were) unafraid to make the right priority calls.


----------



## KittenKong

Gosh this is really saying something.









https://www.theguardian.com/politic...british-peoples-leave-vote-david-davis-brexit

Good for Ken Clarke.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> In context, millions is chicken feed. Thank heavens we have a PM with some balls (as it were) unafraid to make the right priority calls.


Balls? Rather chicken feed.

Axis USA- Western Europe is a cornerstone of world stability.
It is being broken now.
Trump promised nothing.
He and idiot Farage want to bring EU down.
Brexit is splitting against the wind.

At best much poorer, weaker and ridiculous Britain.
At worst....

Do not you see he is unstable, unpredictable and dangerous man?

We are his sidekicks.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nship-uk-stay-citizens-requests-a7555671.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

I watched the majority of the debate in Parliament yesterday on Freeview Channel 131 (The Parliament Channel). Ken Clarke (I think he had the entire chamber in fits of laughter) made me laugh and Nick Clegg and David Lammy got my back up. Julian Lewis made me laugh as well as he stood up he said "Thank you Mr Speaker, in my opinion, the people have decided and I'm going to vote accordingly" and then sat down whilst other MPs had been allotted 10 minutes to explain there decision his took less than a minute to explain. They didn't finish debating until 12:30am this morning.

Today is the final debate on the Article 50 bill and the MPs vote on it tonight, then next week the MPs decide on which amendments if any are put through, I hope there aren't any so the PM can get on with triggering Article 50 (we'll know next Wednesday if there are or aren't any amendments).

I read yesterday on two news sources (Independent and Daily Mail) the PM has penciled in her diary 9th March 2017 to trigger article 50 at the EU summit.


----------



## Honeys mum

The Brexit Bill: your day-by-day guide to what happens next | The Independent


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'm really not sure we should be doing this if we are going to do more trade with the USA. We may we are going to trade with them but Trump changes his mind that quickly we might think we got a deal and we haven't we still need the EU. "_We could be up the stream without a paddle"._


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> I'm really not sure we should be doing this if we are going to do more trade with the USA. We may we are going to trade with them but Trump changes his mind that quickly we might think we got a deal and we haven't we still need the EU. "_We could be up the stream without a paddle"._


Personally I'd rather starve than sell our souls to an unhinged fascist & the bloated corpse of corporate America. Whatever deals we get they will never come close to what we have now with the EU. We have voted to make ourselves poorer , less safe, less democratic.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Personally I'd rather starve than sell our souls to an unhinged fascist & the bloated corpse of corporate America. Whatever deals we get they will never come close to what we have now with the EU. We have voted to make ourselves poorer , less safe, less democratic.


Couldn't agree more Noushka.

Speaking of making ourselves poorer have a look at this:

Isn't Tory Britain wonderful. Worse than ever seeing the present lot make Thatcher look a moderate...









http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...conservative-tories-theresa-may-a7555486.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

So other MPs got 10 whole minutes to let the house know how they are voting and Dr Julian Lewis MP done it in a few seconds:


----------



## Honeys mum

PMQs Live: May and Corbyn go head to head over Brexit and Trump | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

Just watched this on the BBC News, she really gave JC what for.


----------



## rona

Honeys mum said:


> PMQs Live: May and Corbyn go head to head over Brexit and Trump | Politics | News | Express.co.uk
> 
> Just watched this on the BBC News, she really gave JC what for.


I wasn't quite sure of her for a while and I'm still not 100% and I don't agree with some of the conservative policies, but she's certainly what we need with what we are facing at the moment and she impresses me more every time she talks on most issues


----------



## kimthecat

A lot of the opposition didn't turn up to the Article 50 debate, whats the point of having one.

TBH I wouldn't vote for any of the three parties in a GE at the moment. Disillusioned with them all . 

TM has a tough job to do . If she wasnt PM, who else do you think could handle it ?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I wasn't quite sure of her for a while and I'm still not 100% and I don't agree with some of the conservative policies, but she's certainly what we need with what we are facing at the moment


?!?!?!!!!!!!! Each to their own....

If it wasn't for this bl***y government the country wouldn't be in such a mess, no referendum to please Farage and the far right of the party for one. Now we have a PM who made Thatcher seem reasonable in comparison, embraces the worst US president in history and follows the Nigel Farage rhetoric, as if he's taken over the party.

The Tory rise to the far right is frightening indeed and when Trump gets his hands on the UK I dread to think what will happen....

Having said that, Jeremy Corbyn is pathetic to even moderately endorse May's Brexit plan, insisting his party vote with the government.

Is it any wonder people are disillusioned by politics. The only parties making the right noises for me personally at the moment are the SNP and Greens.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Beneficial deal with US led by the Orange is doubtful.
Trump's protectionism would weaken EU. Poorer EU means less trade and we would have to trade with them.
Australia is not enough and think the costs of tansport!!!

Latin and South American countries are first very far and second in debt and drowning with high price of dollar...
Africa is mostly poor, wars , famine and RSA is too far for comfort...
Asia can beat our prices any time...

How custom tariffs and border delays would affect the trade - prices would go up.
This is reality. All those costs add up, plus costs of Brexit itself.


Then political costs also count . A lot.

People did not vote to live on much less with their freedom greatly affected.

They were lied to.
Big earners like financial sector, banks, universities would lose out.

Jobs would be lost. 
Did people vote for that?

Pensions would buy much less.
Inflation is growing.

Prices are rising.
Did people vote for that too?


----------



## rona

We all knew that things wouldn't be easy for a while, and if anyone voted and didn't know that then they shouldn't have been allowed to vote 



cheekyscrip said:


> Jobs would be lost.
> Did people vote for that?


There are loads more jobs being advertised here since about September.



cheekyscrip said:


> Prices are rising.
> Did people vote for that too?


We knew that was a possible outcome



cheekyscrip said:


> Pensions would buy much less.
> Inflation is growing.


I knew that and despite having a pension mature this coming year, I still have and would again vote out


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> TM has a tough job to do . If she wasnt PM, who else do you think could handle it ?


The country needs a PM who's able to stand up to a US President. May's nauseating embracing of Trump is not a sign of a strong PM in my opinion. What makes it worse is Trump and May's politics appear very similar so heaven knows what the UK will become when isolated from the EU and becomes an unofficial annex of the US.

We all saw what happened with Bush and Blair. As always a UK PM bends over backwards to please the US. Heaven knows what this Trump administration will lead the UK to....

I would favour a coalition government without an extremist in charge, (neither May nor Corbyn) would be best I believe, then my own political beliefs are centre-left.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The only parties making the right noises for me personally at the moment are the SNP


What, the woman who backs cheats and liars and can't even pull off trade deals with China


----------



## Honeys mum

rona said:


> I wasn't quite sure of her for a while and I'm still not 100% and I don't agree with some of the conservative policies, but she's certainly what we need with what we are facing at the moment


Have to agree with you on that rona,I don't think she will be talked into doing anything she doesn't want to do.Although I wouldn't want to vote for any of the three parties at the moment.


----------



## samuelsmiles

I think once the dust has settled, and everyone gets around the negotiating table, we will find solutions beneficial to all countries. Maybe everyone is overly emotional at the moment.
*Why the EU must be generous to the UK over Brexit*

*"If the EU refuses to sustain free trade with the UK, its citizens will suffer as much as the British."*

*EU will lose out from bad Brexit deal on City, says leaked report*
*
"The exclusion of the main European financial centre from the internal market could have consequences in terms of jobs and growth in the EU. It is in the interest of EU 27 and the UK to have an open discussion on this point."*


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> What, the woman who backs cheats and liars and can't even pull off trade deals with China


Sure you're not getting her mixed up with someone else I could mention?!

The person I'm thinking of allows China to build a nuclear power station to benefit their, not the UK's economy.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Sure you're not getting her mixed up with someone else I could mention?!


No, and then she does what she always does, blames someone else


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws said:


> I'm really not sure we should be doing this if we are going to do more trade with the USA. We may we are going to trade with them but Trump changes his mind that quickly we might think we got a deal and we haven't we still need the EU. "_We could be up the stream without a paddle"._


Given that Mr Trump has an abysmal track record of honouring promises and deals, I wouldn't be holding my breath...


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles said:


> I think once the dust has settled, and everyone gets around the negotiating table, we will find solutions beneficial to all countries. Maybe everyone is overly emotional at the moment.
> *Why the EU must be generous to the UK over Brexit*
> 
> *"If the EU refuses to sustain free trade with the UK, its citizens will suffer as much as the British."*
> 
> *EU will lose out from bad Brexit deal on City, says leaked report*
> *
> "The exclusion of the main European financial centre from the internal market could have consequences in terms of jobs and growth in the EU. It is in the interest of EU 27 and the UK to have an open discussion on this point."*
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-leaked-report-european-parliament-article-50


Seems obvious to me that good relations with the EU is beneficial to both sides. I'm sure all those clever people who run our countries will see it the same way.......but if they don't, I'm confident that Theresa will do what's needed


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> I think once the dust has settled, and everyone gets around the negotiating table, we will find solutions beneficial to all countries. Maybe everyone is overly emotional at the moment.
> *Why the EU must be generous to the UK over Brexit*
> 
> *"If the EU refuses to sustain free trade with the UK, its citizens will suffer as much as the British."*
> 
> *EU will lose out from bad Brexit deal on City, says leaked report*
> *
> "The exclusion of the main European financial centre from the internal market could have consequences in terms of jobs and growth in the EU. It is in the interest of EU 27 and the UK to have an open discussion on this point."*


Let's face it. Trump and Farage are on a mission to destroy the EU. They can't stand the fact countries have worked together with peace between the nations for over 60 years with Nato.

Now Trump is making noises about Nato too. Those that believe he's committed to Nato because May asked him to be must be very naive to think he'll listen to anyone but himself.

The demise of the EU and possibly Nato will be very beneficial to the superpowers east and west.

As things stand the EU should tell the UK to get stuffed. I'm sick and tired of this nationalist nonsense where a country considers itself to be superior to another or particular organisation.

We saw this with Nazi Germany in the '30s.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Seems obvious to me that good relations with the EU is beneficial to both sides. I'm sure all those clever people who run our countries will see it the same way.......but if they don't, I'm confident that Theresa will do what's needed


There's as much chance of May "enjoying" a "good relationship" with the EU as a car can travel without an engine.

"My terms or no terms". Who the bl**dy hell does she think she is?!!!!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> My terms or no terms". Who the bl**dy hell does she think she is?!!!!


So when was she supposed to have said that?
I don't recall that at all


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> We saw this with Nazi Germany in the '30s.


Here we go again


----------



## stockwellcat.

Some people on this thread are good at doing this:


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> As things stand the EU should tell the UK to get stuffed. I'm sick and tired of this nationalist nonsense where a country considers itself to be superior to another or particular organisation.
> .


 Again , wanting to be independent doesn't mean you do think you are superior , and being part of a group such as the EU doesn't mean that you don't think you are superior .

On your premise , that would make India , Pakistan, Ireland , etc etc think they are superior to us simply because they wanted to be independent,

Its already been said by Goblin, there's a difference between Patriotism and Nationalism.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Again , wanting to be independent doesn't mean you do think you are superior , and being part of a group such as the EU doesn't mean that you don't think you are superior .
> 
> On your premise , that would make India , Pakistan, Ireland , etc etc think they are superior to us simply because they wanted to be independent,
> 
> Its already been said by Goblin, there's a difference between Patriotism and Nationalism.


UK was independent?

How patriotic is making your own country poorer? Weaker? Isolated?
Dependent on unstable bully?
Indeed.

So idiots who elected Trump thought they are patriotic because Trump said" America First".
First to what? Offend other nations?

What Brexit has to do with patriotism?


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> UK was independent?
> 
> How patriotic is making your own country poorer? Weaker? Isolated?
> Dependent on unstable bully? Indeed.


We're not dependent on Russia 

True that Trump as President wasn't foreseen , the Referendum happened before he was elected . should we back out of leaving because of Trump?

We've not left the EU yet and Trump wont be President for ever.

AS for the rest of your comments , its already been discussed endlessly.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


> PMQs Live: May and Corbyn go head to head over Brexit and Trump | Politics | News | Express.co.uk
> 
> Just watched this on the BBC News, she really gave JC what for.


Yes but he wasn't given a chance to answer The Speaker moved to change the sunject.



rona said:


> So when was she supposed to have said that?
> I don't recall that at all


I can't remember when she said it but I defendantly heard her say it.


----------



## kimthecat

@rona I think she did say words to that effect , a while back .


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> No, and then she does what she always does, blames someone else


We had one woman try to ruin the country and now we have another one, and a unelected one at that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Britain would be much poorer for foreseeable future. EU too.
Gain to USA, maybe, gain to Russia, surely.
For environment , for health care and education this change will make everything much worse.

People would realise they were duped.
How long then you can blame immigrants?


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> What Brexit has to do with patriotism?


I dont know . Kittenkong keeps going on about Brexit being nationalistic . That we left because of nationalism and that we think we are superior and Im saying that we are not in general . 
and not to mistake patriotism for nationalism .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> @rona I think she did say words to that effect , a while back .


I heard her say that if they couldn't put together a deal that suited the UK we would go it alone. Nothing more nothing less. The papers have said more but I've not heard it out of her mouth ever 
If they drag their heels they could ruin us and she's not prepared for that to happen thank goodness


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> We had one woman try to ruin the country and now we have another one, and a unelected one at that.


I thought Sturgeon was elected?


----------



## kimthecat

Not long to go before the result of the vote .


----------



## MollySmith

No wonder that *ucke* Farage wanted out and over the green and pleasant lands of non EU Britain. Regardless of the outcome of the vote, I am still glad I voted In because frankly to have voted for this lying toe rag would have made me sick to my soul rather like a Trump supporter in four years time.

_Nigel Farage, Paul Nuttall and six other Ukip MEPs are under investigation by the European parliament for alleged misuse of funds, which could lead to repayment demands totalling £500,000.

Financial controllers are looking into eight of Ukip's 20 MEPs, who are suspected of having broken rules that ban full-time EU-funded parliamentary assistants from working for the national party.

It is understood that Farage and his fellow Ukip MEP Raymond Finch will be asked to repay around £84,000 paid to their joint assistant, Christopher Adams, who is also Ukip's national nominating officer. Adams is described as one of the party's "key people" on its website. Parliament officials have suspended Adams's contract because they are not convinced he was working as an MEP assistant._

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-among-ukip-meps-accused-of-misusing-eu-funds


----------



## stockwellcat.

Labour MPs Rachael Maskell and Dawn Butler have just resigned from the Shadow Cabinet over vote to trigger the formal process of leaving the EU.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/826857943517843458

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/826858647720493057


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Jeremy Corbyn reacts to the shadow cabinet resignations:*

"I would like to thank Dawn and Rachael for their work in the shadow cabinet. They are great assets to the Labour party and to our movement."


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Again , wanting to be independent doesn't mean you do think you are superior , and being part of a group such as the EU doesn't mean that you don't think you are superior .
> 
> On your premise , that would make India , Pakistan, Ireland , etc etc think they are superior to us simply because they wanted to be independent.


Fair comment, but aren't some of these countries part of the Commonwealth so still have some connection with Britain?

This government want a complete break away from Europe due to the issue of free movement with their anti immigration stance. That's clearly xenophobic to me.

Also look at how the media, far right politicians and many people have behaved during and after the referendum? Not forgetting Xenophobia becoming "acceptable" to many. Now May and Farage believe they rule the world by having a bigot as their best friend.

Rona- I referred to May saying she would walk away if she doesn't get the deal she wants.

Re Brexit being Nationalistic- again look at who's behind it. Farage and co. Say no more.......

The EU never threatened Patriotism whatever the papers said.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> No wonder that *ucke* Farage wanted out and over the green and pleasant lands of non EU Britain. Regardless of the outcome of the vote, I am still glad I voted In because frankly to have voted for this lying toe rag would have made me sick to my soul


I voted out and I certainly don't link that to any vote for Farage.......he has no power, he's just a loud mouth.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Do not you see he is unstable, unpredictable and dangerous man?


Trump?, yes of course. He's a nut-job. Should be sanctioned.

He is however the democratically elected leader of the most important democracy in the world and, unlike many in these parts, I have a respect for the democratic process.

Mature diplomacy requires that you build relationships, sometimes based on compromise. Throwing one's toys from the pram just won't do at all. Thank heavens we have grown-ups in our government.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> "My terms or no terms". Who the bl**dy hell does she think she is?!!!!





KittenKong said:


> Rona- I referred to May saying she would walk away if she doesn't get the deal she wants.


A little difference there don't you think?

The "terms", put into context of what she was saying at the time and not as a little soundbite, was about timescale of negotiations

She's not willing to be messed about, and I can see that applying to Mr Trump too


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Fair comment but look at how the media, far right politicians and many people have behaved during and after the referendum? Not forgetting Xenophobia becoming "acceptable" to many. Now May and Farage believe they rule the world by having a bigot as their best friend.
> 
> Rona- I referred to May saying she would walk away if she doesn't get the deal she wants.
> 
> Re Brexit being Nationalistic- again look at who's behind it. Farage and co. Say no more.......
> 
> The EU never threatened Patriotism whatever the papers said.


I hope we see the back of Farage . Farage is not TMs best friend. He has no power and I dont know why the press and TV give him so much airtime. 
The main parties really need to get their act together to unite against him and UKIP.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> We all knew that things wouldn't be easy for a while, and if anyone voted and didn't know that then they shouldn't have been allowed to vote
> 
> There are loads more jobs being advertised here since about September.
> 
> We knew that was a possible outcome
> 
> I knew that and despite having a pension mature this coming year, I still have and would again vote out


Things will not be easy? Say that to all those who have children to feed right now, who need to pay for their education right now, not in ten years...who have ailing pets...right now...
Obviously if people are poorer then something has to go ..
Wonder how that will affect animal shelters ? How many cannot keep their lets anymore?
Or would live to adopt but cannot afford that extra bit?

The first budget cuts are always the animal charities, the environment etc..

Or say it is just collateral damage.

.As long as I am working Garfield is safe even if had to be operated.

How many would be in my position?.
I wonder....

More jobs? Wait till the ball starts
rolling..

When prices go up ( tariffs,transport, border checks and delays)...people afford to buy less..the production goes down, then employment goes down, the people can afford less ..it is simply called recession.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> There's as much chance of May "enjoying" a "good relationship" with the EU as a car can travel without an engine.


Here you go then.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

If you have Freeview the debate is live on Channel 131 Parliament Channel. The vote results are due very soon.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> I hope we see the back of Farage . Farage is not TMs best friend. He has no power and I dont know why the press and TV give him so much airtime.
> The main parties really need to get their act together to unite against him and UKIP.


The main parties: Tories, Labour ( Corbyn) sound very much like Farage?
I do not care who spouts his rhetoric...
TM puts immigration blocking before economy.
If that is not pure Farage?

While Britain actually benefits from free movement!!!

But not for long.

Very sad day, not for the fat cats though....


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Things will not be easy? Say that to all those who have children to feed right now, who need to pay for their education right now, not in ten years...who have ailing pets...right now...
> Obviously if people are poorer then something has to go ..
> Wonder how that will affect animal shelters ? How many cannot keep their lets anymore?
> Or would live to adopt but cannot afford that extra bit?
> 
> The first budget cuts are always the animal charities, the environment etc..
> 
> Or say it is just collateral damage.
> 
> .As long as I am working Garfield is safe even if had to be operated.
> 
> How many would be in my position?.
> I wonder....
> 
> More jobs? Wait till the ball starts
> rolling..
> 
> When prices go up ( tariffs,transport, border checks and delays)...people afford to buy less..the production goes down, then employment goes down, the people can afford less ..it is simply called recession.


But what's at the end of the rainbow for those children's children when they've grown looks far better to me than where this world has been heading. As I said, we will never agree. 
I've probably messed up my old age for a better future for others in this country. I've not done much in my life but voting out I am rather proud of


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> But what's at the end of the rainbow for those children's children when they've grown looks far better to me than where this world has been heading. As I said, we will never agree.
> I've probably messed up my old age for a better future for others in this country. I've not done much in my life but voting out I am rather proud of


No. You messed up for you, me, my children and their children. For Gibraltar. For NI and Scotland. For all EU citizens in UK.

And helped to mess up America, EU and the rest...
Sorry. 
Brexit is a tragic decision.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I thought Sturgeon was elected?


oh very funny you know very well who I'm talking about.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> No. You messed up for you, me, my children and their children. For Gibraltar. For NI and Scotland. For all EU citizens in UK.
> 
> And helped to mess up America, EU and the rest...
> Sorry.
> Brexit is a tragic decision.


Your very entitled to your opinion


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> oh very funny you know very well who I'm talking about.


But you quoted me and I was talking about Sturgeon


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Your very entitled to your opinion


You are equally. Hope you are right despite everything that points against it. 
I do not want to be right in this case.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> No. You messed up for you, me, my children and their children. For Gibraltar. For NI and Scotland. For all EU citizens in UK.
> 
> And helped to mess up America, EU and the rest...
> Sorry.
> Brexit is a tragic decision.


 Im sorry you are in this position.

I don't agree we have messed up America or the EU , The US made their one choice and if the EU is that messed up , it must have been very weak in the first place. I dont think the EU is messed up that badly . We have been through a world financial banking crisis , perhaps we can blame the US for that and that has caused problems plus the refugee crisis .


----------



## stockwellcat.

MPs have just cleared the Chamber to vote. Results pending.


----------



## stockwellcat.

SNP attempt to block Article 50


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Im sorry you are in this position.
> 
> I don't agree we have messed up America or the EU , The US made their one choice and if the EU is that messed up , it must have been very weak in the first place. I dont think the EU is messed up that badly . We have been through a world financial banking crisis , perhaps we can blame the US for that and that has caused problems plus the refugee crisis .


Trump lost public vote and won by whisker. Trump's camp and Farage were constantly bleeting about Brexit?
Coping Farage's spiel? Why Trump brought Farage to his campaign?
Brexit influenced USA election and considering how close it was unfortunately it tipped it towards Trump.
Farage played his part in electing Trump.


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 299189
> 
> 
> Can some explain what this means ^^^


SNP amendment to Block Article 50 rejected


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Farage.......he has no power, he's just a loud mouth.


No official power perhaps but look at how Trump and May speak his language. Going for the hard Brexit HE wanted with priory on immigration (and no doubt emigration), sacrifice the single market however damaging that could be, looking for trade deals with controversial countries and of course May and Farage embracing of Trump.

Even Labour are scared of losing votes to UKIP.

Farage might not be an MP but what influence he has on politics, not only in the UK as we've seen.

Write off Farage at your peril........


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## rona

That's great, it starts with an earthquake
Birds and snakes, and aeroplanes
And Lenny Bruce is not afraid

Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn
World serves its own needs,
Don't mis-serve your own needs
Speed it up a notch, speed, grunt, no, strength,
The ladder starts to clatter
With a fear of height, down, height
Wire in a fire, represent the seven games
And a government for hire and a combat site
Left her, wasn't coming in a hurry
With the Furies breathing down your neck

Team by team, reporters baffled, trumped, tethered, cropped
Look at that low plane, fine, then
Uh oh, overflow, population, common group
But it'll do, save yourself, serve yourself
World serves its own needs, listen to your heart bleed
Tell me with the Rapture and the reverent in the right, right
You vitriolic, patriotic, slam fight, bright light
Feeling pretty psyched

It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine

Six o'clock, T.V. hour, don't get caught in foreign tower
Slash and burn, return, listen to yourself churn
Lock him in uniform, book burning, bloodletting
Every motive escalate, automotive incinerate
Light a candle, light a motive, step down, step down
Watch your heel crush, crush, uh oh
This means no fear, cavalier, renegade and steering clear
A tournament, a tournament, a tournament of lies
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline

It's the end of the world as we know it (I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it (I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine (time I had some time alone)
I feel fine (I feel fine)

REM


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> That's great, it starts with an earthquake
> Birds and snakes, and aeroplanes
> And Lenny Bruce is not afraid
> 
> Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn
> World serves its own needs,
> Don't mis-serve your own needs
> Speed it up a notch, speed, grunt, no, strength,
> The ladder starts to clatter
> With a fear of height, down, height
> Wire in a fire, represent the seven games
> And a government for hire and a combat site
> Left her, wasn't coming in a hurry
> With the Furies breathing down your neck
> 
> Team by team, reporters baffled, trumped, tethered, cropped
> Look at that low plane, fine, then
> Uh oh, overflow, population, common group
> But it'll do, save yourself, serve yourself
> World serves its own needs, listen to your heart bleed
> Tell me with the Rapture and the reverent in the right, right
> You vitriolic, patriotic, slam fight, bright light
> Feeling pretty psyched
> 
> It's the end of the world as we know it
> It's the end of the world as we know it
> It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine
> 
> Six o'clock, T.V. hour, don't get caught in foreign tower
> Slash and burn, return, listen to yourself churn
> Lock him in uniform, book burning, bloodletting
> Every motive escalate, automotive incinerate
> Light a candle, light a motive, step down, step down
> Watch your heel crush, crush, uh oh
> This means no fear, cavalier, renegade and steering clear
> A tournament, a tournament, a tournament of lies
> Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline
> 
> It's the end of the world as we know it (I had some time alone)
> It's the end of the world as we know it (I had some time alone)
> It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine (time I had some time alone)
> I feel fine (I feel fine)
> 
> REM


I am losing my religion...

Just right now Chuck Hagel said exactly what I think how it would go...


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> But you quoted me and I was talking about Sturgeon


Sorry I haven't been reading every post, I was talking about thatcher the milk snatch and may


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> No official power perhaps but look at how Trump and May speak his language


Not heard Theresa use anything like the language used by Farage or Trump



KittenKong said:


> May and Farage embracing of Trump.


Not heard Thersa endorsing anything Trump has said or implemented other than the U turn on NATO



KittenKong said:


> Farage might not be an MP but what influence he has on politics, not only in the UK as we've seen.


He only had influence because the press and people like you keep giving him air time


----------



## stockwellcat.

Majority 384 (498) for Article 50 bill. It now goes to committee stage when the amendments are considered.


----------



## cheekyscrip

The future we might have had has ended.
We are leaving. 
How democracy fueled by populism can destroy it's own..

Brexit is a black hole.


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws said:


> Sorry I haven't been reading every post, I was talking about thatcher the milk snatch and may


In the U.K. you don't vote for a person you vote for a party (conservatives). The party members decides who leads the party so yes May was elected.


----------



## MollySmith

stuaz said:


> In the U.K. you don't vote for a person you vote for a party (conservatives). The party members decides who leads the party so yes May was elected.


True but the way the media focus on the party leaders seems to make it more like a presidential race. I suspect it's very easy to get confused.


----------



## MollySmith

Here's the result, as expected by everyone. I suspect my MP was one of the 47 Labours as Cambridge voted to remain. Edited to say yes, he has said he voted against on Twitter which is what was expected. 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883

_MPs have voted by a majority of 384 to allow Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way.

They backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.

But the Scottish National Party and the Liberal Democrat leadership opposed the bill, while 47 Labour MPs and Tory ex-chancellor Ken Clarke rebelled.

The bill now faces further scrutiny in the Commons and the House of Lords before it can become law.

The prime minister has set a deadline of 31 March for invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, getting official talks with the EU started._


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> I voted out and I certainly don't link that to any vote for Farage.......he has no power, he's just a loud mouth.


I'd just never ever vote for anything that was in anyway associated with him. He is an idiot and worse, a dangerous one with no morals. Him and his Brexit 'bad boys' hanging with Trump makes me sick.


----------



## KittenKong

"I can hear the bells ringing and echoing over Berlin.

I can only imagine the sadness the city has seen.

City stands so tall, yet it's imprisoned behind a wall.

One day it must fall"

Lone Star "The Bells of Berlin" from the album, "Firing on all Six" CBS 1977.

40 years later more talk of walls and borders.....


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> Him and his Brexit 'bad boys' hanging with Trump makes me sick.


With that I concur


----------



## cheekyscrip

This how those Germans felt how knew Hitler would be a disaster, yet nothing they wrote, said or done was able to stop it till bitter end.
Have you heard Chuck Hagel in BBC just minutes before voting?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> "I can hear the bells ringing and echoing over Berlin.
> 
> I can only imagine the sadness the city has seen.
> 
> City stands so tall, yet it's imprisoned behind a wall.
> 
> One day it must fall"
> 
> Lone Star "The Bells of Berlin" from the album, "Firing on all Six" CBS 1977.
> 
> 40 years later more talk of walls and borders.....


 The berlin wall was built by the russians to keep people in .


----------



## stockwellcat.

I would like to ask what amendments can be made to the Article 50 bill as the bill is plain and simple?

The amendments that have been put forward concern the next stage after Article 50 has been triggered that being the negotiations so would be irrelevant at this stage concerning the bill MPs just voted on.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> The berlin wall was built by the russians to keep people in .


To split Germany. Result of a war Germany lost . Led by democratically elected Hitler, who promised to make Germany great and people just wanted to believe it.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> To split Germany. Result of a war Germany lost . Led by democratically elected Hitler, who promised to make Germany great and people just wanted to believe it.


I'm really sure Mrs may isnt going to kill her rivals and invade Poland .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> The berlin wall was built by the russians to keep people in .


The end of free movement will keep EU immigrants out and UK citizens in!


----------



## Happy Paws2

stuaz said:


> In the U.K. you don't vote for a person you vote for a party (conservatives). The party members decides who leads the party so yes May was elected.


Your not telling me the leader of a party doesn't have some influnce on the way people vote.


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong I don't think it will be quite as bad as that . I'm sure we'll be allowed out for holidays .  Actually perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing . We wouldn't need a third runway at LHR. Hurray !


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> I'm really sure Mrs may isnt going to *kill her rivals* and invade Poland .


No, just her own country.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> Your not telling me the leader of a party doesn't have some influnce on the way people vote.


you have a point . No way would I vote Labour if Corbyn is still leader.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> you have a point . No way would I vote Labour if Corbyn is still leader.


True


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> you have a point . No way would I vote Labour if Corbyn is still leader.


Well Corbyn's front bench is in a right mess now


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The end of free movement will keep EU immigrants out and UK citizens in!


We used to travel pretty freely before joining the EU


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> No, just her own country.


 Well, I sincerely I hope not .


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The end of free movement will keep EU immigrants out and UK citizens in!


We'll still be in Europe and we was able to travel to Europe freely before and vice versa.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> We used to travel pretty freely before joining the EU


I haven't travelled abroad much , the only time I went to the EU before we joined it was with the school for a day trip to Boulogne and it was very easy ,


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> "I can hear the bells ringing and echoing over Berlin.


 In celebration because the UK has finally took the foot it had in the EU out, not Europe. Try not to get the EU and Europe confused they are two different entities.


----------



## MollySmith

Not Photoshop'd, this happened.

_Nigel Farage was speaking in praise of Donald Trump and the travel ban in the European Parliament when a Labour MEP held a sign behind him.

Seb Dance, a Labour MEP for London, held up the piece of paper on which he had written "he's lying to you".

After this, an usher walked up to the MEP, and appeared to give him a dressing-down.

Focus was pulled from Mr Farage's speech, and the picture of Mr Dance holding the sign was shared widely on social media.

Seb Dance appeared happy with the situation, retweeting posts accusing him of 'trolling' Nigel Farage._


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> We used to travel pretty freely before joining the EU


Yes, perhaps but leaving the EU and Europe isn't going to transfer us back to 1972.

The world is a very different place to what it was then.

You, and indeed myself cannot possibly know what will actually happen yet I feel foreign travel will resort to a rich person's leisure again.

There's always Butlins or Pontins for the rest.

Still, as I said we don't know.


----------



## stockwellcat.

For those that are interested this is what happens next:

2 February: Theresa May publishes her white paper - setting out the government's formal policy position on Brexit (Theresa May confirmed this today in PMQs that the White Paper will be available on the 2nd February 2017).

6 and 7 February: The bill will begin its committee stage in the Commons, which gives MPs an opportunity for further scrutiny and attempts at revision. They can try to change the bill by pushing through a series of amendments, although it is unlikely any will pass without the support of significant numbers of rebel Tory MPs.

8 February: At the end ofthe committee stage, MPs will get another chance to debate the bill, followed by a final vote. The bill is almost certain to pass and be sent to the Lords.

20 February: The House of Lords is likely to begin debating the bill after parliament returns from recess. This may continue for some days. If peers vote to amend the bill, it will return to the Commons and continue to pass back and forth in a process known as "ping-pong" until the text is agreed. If there are no amendments, the bill is sent to the Queen to receive royal assent and become law.

7 March: The government hopes the Brexit bill will have passed through the Lords by this date. Once the bill has received royal assent, May will be able to trigger article 50 at any point thereafter.

9 and 10 March: May could use the occasion of an EU summit in Brussels to formally trigger article 50 and start the two-year countdown to the UK leaving the EU.

31 March: This is the self-imposed deadline set by May for invoking article 50 by notifying the European council of Britain's intention to leave the EU.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...hats-next-timeline?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The end of free movement will keep EU immigrants out and UK citizens in!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/a...ays-Thomson-Airways-reveals-1960s-images.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...that-made-europe-our-summer-home-2095470.html

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2008/jun/18/nhs60.nhs2
"The history of the NHS is also a history of economic migration. Practically from its conception, the health service suffered acute shortages of staff, and that shortfall was met then, as it is now, by "importing" nurses, doctors and auxiliary staff from overseas."

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/citizenship/brave_new_world/immigration.htm
"The appeal for new workers was, however, aimed primarily at white Europeans, who had dominated immigration to Britain during the century before the Second World War and still played an important role after 1945. Even in the 1970s the Irish remained the largest immigrant community in Britain. In the years immediately after the war, new arrivals came from all over Europe. These included a small number of German prisoners of war, a larger number of refugees from the Communist regimes in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union (130,000 Poles arrived during the first few years after the war, and 14,000 Hungarians after the failure of the 1956 uprising in Hungary), substantial numbers of Irish and Italian labourers, and a wide variety of displaced persons from refugee camps throughout Europe".

Always been there but only got out of hand after joining the EU
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/48

People from outside the EU still work here you know, and we go to other countries to work too. I even know a couple that work in Muslim countries


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Yes, perhaps but leaving the EU and Europe isn't going to transfer us back to 1972.
> 
> The world is a very different place to what it was then.
> 
> You, and indeed myself cannot possibly know what will actually happen yet I feel foreign travel will resort to a rich person's leisure again.
> 
> There's always Butlins or Pontins for the rest.
> 
> Still, as I said we don't know.


Oh for heaven sake, This is getting to fairy tale status and the big bad wolf


----------



## KittenKong

Yeah. Isn't that looking back in time again? Things are very different now.

Ireland is now part of the EU yet this government are hell bent on, "Controlling immigration". Trump has an indication of how this may look....

I always said a compromise should have been sought, remain in the EEA and customs union. There was nothing on the referendum paper to suggest leaving that, only the EU.

Norway and Switzerland do pretty well.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Oh for heaven sake, This is getting to fairy tale status and the big bad wolf


I preferred "Struwwlpeter" myself!
The Dreadful Story of Harriet and the matches and all that........


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> yet this government are hell bent on, "Controlling immigration"


We still do control immigration from outside the EU with no sign of problems, racial prejudiced, bigotry or favour



KittenKong said:


> Norway and Switzerland do pretty well.


But with free movement imposed, it's free movement that has caused so many problems


----------



## cheekyscrip

I can imagine if Brexit do not deliver and it won't anything good, then EU would be to blame and those EU born who still dare to stay in UK...
What then?
If unemployment starts 
Little yellow stars on their sleeves, work permit for SportDirect workhouses? Or deportation?

To appease British people currently without jobs, because it recession, cause by revengeful EU, who did not let UK to have as they want it?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> We still do control immigration from outside the EU with no sign of problems, racial prejudiced, bigotry or favour
> 
> But with free movement imposed, it's free movement that has caused so many problems


Really? Free movement caused Islamic preachers to spread hatred and sent Brits to fight for IS? To have schools controlled by extremists?
The unemployment is at the lowest!!!

The cheap, professional, young workforce was a huge advantage for UK.
If UK government did not invest in infrastructure then do not blame the workers.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I can imagine if Brexit do not deliver and it won't anything good, then EU would be to blame and those EU born who still dare to stay in UK...


I personally have not heard anyone say they were born EU. Born a European Citizen or born British Citizen, German Citizen, French Citizen, Spanish Citizen, Gibraltarian Citizen etc yes but not EU born. The UK is not leaving Europe by the way so we'll still be European Citizens, the UK is leaving the European Union the political and economic union of Europe.


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws said:


> Your not telling me the leader of a party doesn't have some influnce on the way people vote.


Didn't say it didn't. Just saying that to say she is "unelected" is technically wrong based on how the rules work.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I personally have not heard anyone say they were born EU, born European or born British, German etc yes but not EU born.


Selective hearing?

Common in married males and children of both sexes...

And if you say you heard " Gibraltarian Citizen" then you are lying.
Noone ever say that. It is or British or llanito ( yanito).
Native of Gibraltar is called that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Selective hearing?


Not at all.

It is you that has selective hearing.



> Common in married males and children of both sexes...


 I don't understand what you mean. Your point being?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> But with free movement imposed, it's free movement that has caused so many problems


Yes, and look who blamed EU migrants for the countries woes? Say no more....

EU countries have accepted UK citizens without problems (Some Spanish Nationalists may disagree)

Have you been personally affected by EU citizens living in your area to have this opinion on them?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Yes, and look who blamed EU migrants for the countries woes? Say no more....


Who? Certainly not Theresa or her government



KittenKong said:


> EU countries have accepted UK citizens without problems (Some Spanish Nationalists may disagree)


Your point?



KittenKong said:


> Have you been personally affected by EU citizens living in your area to have this opinion on them?


Yes


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Not at all.
> 
> It is you that has selective hearing.


Go to sleep or I will call grammar police.
Violation of English.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Who? Certainly not Theresa or her government
> 
> Your point?
> 
> Yes


Did they do anything that English do not? I imagine bad eggs happen in every nation?

Surely no English misbehave abroad?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Go to sleep or I will call grammar police.
> Violation of English.


----------



## KittenKong

rona, post: 1064765793, member: 1291961"]Who? Certainly not Theresa or her government 

Think you well know who I'm on about!


Rona:
Your point? 

UK Migrants have made Spain and other countries their home, just as many EU migrants have made the UK their home.

Not suggesting this is your own opinion but why do many believe the former is ok but the latter isn't?

It's a shame to hear you've been personally affected by EU migration. Not everyone who comes to the UK is an angel, or indeed vice versa. I've met many great people I would never have met, nor have the pleasure working with had it not been for free movement, but that's my personal experience.

Plenty of British people I dislike though, not because they are British either...


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> UK Migrants have made Spain and other countries their home, just as many EU migrants have made the UK their home.
> 
> Not suggesting this is your own opinion but why do many believe the former is ok but the latter isn't?


I've no idea, I've never spoken to anyone who thinks migration is particularly a bad thing


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> rona, post: 1064765793, member: 1291961"]Who? Certainly not Theresa or her government
> 
> Think you well know who I'm on about!
> 
> Rona:
> Your point?
> 
> UK Migrants have made Spain and other countries their home, just as many EU migrants have made the UK their home.
> 
> Not suggesting this is your own opinion but why do many believe the former is ok but the latter isn't?


The UK want to safe guard EU citizens rights in the UK but it has become apparent that some European leaders don't want to safe guard UK citizens rights living in Europe. So until these countries agree Theresa May will not guarantee EU citizens rights in the UK, it's only fair.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-brexit-referendum?client=ms-android-motorola

Theresa May has said her offer to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK has been snubbed by "one or two" European leaders.

She told European ambassadors in her keynote speech on Tuesday that she wanted to seal an early deal on the issue of the 3 million settled in the UK and the 1.2 million Britons in Europe, but she did not have the backing of all 27 member states.

This was reiterated again today during the debate.


----------



## rona

You only have to look at this to see the problem

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...p/Migration_and_migrant_population_statistics

Match this with land mass and infrastructure and you have a fuller picture as well as a crowded country


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> It's a shame to hear you've been personally affected by EU migration. Not everyone who comes to the UK is an angel, or indeed vice versa. I've met many great people I would never have met, nor have the pleasure working with had it not been for free movement, but that's my personal experience.


I didn't say I've been effected negatively, you just assumed that


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> You only have to look at this to see the problem
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...Immigration_by_citizenship,_2014_(¹)_YB16.png
> 
> Match this with land mass and infrastructure and you have a fuller picture as well as a crowded country


Infrastructure depends on whom actually?
Then overpopulation is generally a problem. 
Maybe some benefits make feckless parenting quite appealing?

But with unemployment at the lowest?
It is not legal immigrants who are homeless on the streets. Very few.
There are no illegals from EU on principle.
You got a handful from Calais?

Population is aging in UK anyway, so young people are needed.
Instead you would get returning impoverished expats. Mostly seniors.
Those who work in EU might need permits...not always granted. Plus making you dependant on your employer. Not always acceptable.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I didn't say I've been effected negatively, you just assumed that


So if it was positive why then?
I am confused.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> But with free movement imposed, it's free movement that has caused so many problems


In which I asked:



KittenKong said:


> Have you been personally affected by EU citizens living in your area to have this opinion on them?


In which you answered yes.



rona said:


> I didn't say I've been effected negatively, you just assumed that


Perhaps I should have added "Negatively" to my question...


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> In which I asked:
> 
> In which you answered yes.
> 
> Perhaps I should have added "Negatively" to my question...


But you don't seem to gasp what my opinion is, so by answering yes I was answering your question by my understanding not yours



KittenKong said:


> Have you been personally affected by EU citizens living in your area to have this opinion on them?


The word "this" didn't indicate a positive or negative, so I answered the question correctly


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Selective hearing?
> 
> Common in married males and children of both sexes...
> 
> And if you say you heard " Gibraltarian Citizen" then you are lying.
> Noone ever say that. It is or British or llanito ( yanito).
> Native of Gibraltar is called that.


I dont understand y our post . Stockwell cat is saying that no one calls themselves EU born , are you saying that they do ? 
Do you know anyone who says they are EU born? If you ask people where they were born they tend say the country .
If you say where are you from , they may well say their continent eg Europe or Africa . I wouldn't think people would say I'm from the European Un ion , its not a place .


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said: ↑
Not at all.

It is you that has selective hearing.



cheekyscrip said:


> Go to sleep or I will call grammar police.
> Violation of English.


 Erm Cheeky , what is grammatically incorrect about Stockwell's sentence ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> stockwellcat said: ↑
> Not at all.
> 
> It is you that has selective hearing.
> 
> Erm Cheeky , what is grammatically incorrect about Stockwell's sentence ?


Lol!!!! Go to [email protected] said "you has"?
Maybe it is ok in hobbit?
Or maybe English is their second language ( hobbit being the first , of course)...then all can be forgiven...
Except being illegal immigrant from Middle Earth.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Lol!!!! Go to [email protected] said "you has"?
> .


What should it be ? Im sure his sentence is correct . 

"It is you that has selective hearing."

ETA I think "has" is right but perhaps "that" should be "who " or "whom"

It is you who has selective hearing ?

It is you that have selective hearing ?

Blimey , wheres my grammar book !

Whatever it is , where I live we would say "has " but only after "then"
I wouldn't say You has . I dont know why its said differently .


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> What should it be ? Im sure his sentence is correct .
> 
> "It is you that has selective hearing."
> 
> ETA I think "has" is right but perhaps "that" should be "who " or "whom"
> 
> It is you who has selective hearing ?
> 
> It is you that have selective hearing ?
> 
> Blimey , wheres my grammar book !


"It is you who have ... " Blame my English teacher! Who was English. So there. All your fault...all along.
But then he was educated in public school! Different English?


----------



## kimthecat

I speak in the vernicular . 

ETA Ive spelt that wrong !


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, kimthecat:

 I speak in the *vernicular* . 

/QUOTE
.
.
is that a vehicle, or a vortex? 
.
.
.


----------



## kimthecat

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, kimthecat:
> 
> I speak in the *vernicular* .
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .is that a vehicle, or a vortex?
> .
> ..


 Ive spelt it wrong! It should be vern*a*culer ! Its a posh word for a language dialect apparently .


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> I speak in the vernicular .


I speak in vernacular.
Vernicular do not. 
Spelling police!!!
But it is late and "errare humanum est".


----------



## kimthecat

@cheekyscrip Yes,I know , I corrected it before you posted.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Ive spelt it wrong! It should be vern*a*culer ! Its a posh word for a language dialect apparently .


Neither is it "vernaculer"...!!!

If you are drinking I need some too.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> @cheekyscrip Yes,I know , I corrected it before you posted.


No.You didn't ...precipitous meanders of verbosity bamboozled you ..


----------



## kimthecat

Actually i did , look at the time of the my edit .


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Actually i did , look at the time of the my edit .


"Of the my edit"...you are sinking fast....


----------



## kimthecat

oh I see what you mean . :Hilarious I need glasses

The first time I put i instead of a and when I corrected that , for some reason at the end I put an e instead of a so it was still incorrect .


----------



## KittenKong

Meanwhile over at Sabre, this excellent post.


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong Do you think the MPs should vote on whether to have a soft or hard brexit or even a referendum to decide? .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong Do you think the MPs should vote on whether to have a soft or hard brexit or even a referendum to decide? .


I would prefer to wake up from the whole nonsense as if it were a bad dream and not face any Brexit, let alone a hard one if it was down to me!

Having said that, what's done is done. Parliament should, in my opinion, focus on a Norway or Swiss method that's proven to work in these countries, in addition to keeping free movement rights which will suit me personally. The UK will have left the EU as desired by the leave vote, yet rights for those who want part of it will be retained.

Had the UK never joined the Common Market/EU I'm sure they would have become part of the EEA.

The referendum slip only gave two options to leave or remain, simple closed questions that should have been elaborated on, ie whether to stay part of the EEA or withdraw altogether.

While some leave voters I know live in a fantasy world, still believing in the £350m for the NHS etc, one or two others recognise the slim leave victory and, like me would like to see a compromise.

It should go to a parliamentary debate and vote with Scotland, NI and Gibraltar listened to.


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong I still can't believe the government didn't have a plan for leaving , I wonder if they'd even discussed it , so arrogant of them !
I don't remember it being discussed in public , if it wasn't then it should have been .


----------



## KittenKong

Well said Tim Farron


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/a...ays-Thomson-Airways-reveals-1960s-images.html
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...that-made-europe-our-summer-home-2095470.html
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2008/jun/18/nhs60.nhs2
> "The history of the NHS is also a history of economic migration. Practically from its conception, the health service suffered acute shortages of staff, and that shortfall was met then, as it is now, by "importing" nurses, doctors and auxiliary staff from overseas."
> 
> http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/citizenship/brave_new_world/immigration.htm
> "The appeal for new workers was, however, aimed primarily at white Europeans, who had dominated immigration to Britain during the century before the Second World War and still played an important role after 1945. Even in the 1970s the Irish remained the largest immigrant community in Britain. In the years immediately after the war, new arrivals came from all over Europe. These included a small number of German prisoners of war, a larger number of refugees from the Communist regimes in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union (130,000 Poles arrived during the first few years after the war, and 14,000 Hungarians after the failure of the 1956 uprising in Hungary), substantial numbers of Irish and Italian labourers, and a wide variety of displaced persons from refugee camps throughout Europe".
> 
> Always been there but only got out of hand after joining the EU
> https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/48
> 
> People from outside the EU still work here you know, and we go to other countries to work too. I even know a couple that work in Muslim countries


*Staff crisis grows as foreign nurses abandon the NHS*

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...3?shareToken=0a5e7a4aecc6232df7a28dfcb26c077e


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...lt-conservative-neil-carmichael-a7558056.html


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> For those that are interested this is what happens next:
> 
> 2 February: Theresa May publishes her white paper - setting out the government's formal policy position on Brexit (Theresa May confirmed this today in PMQs that the White Paper will be available on the 2nd February 2017).
> 
> 6 and 7 February: The bill will begin its committee stage in the Commons, which gives MPs an opportunity for further scrutiny and attempts at revision. They can try to change the bill by pushing through a series of amendments, although it is unlikely any will pass without the support of significant numbers of rebel Tory MPs.
> 
> 8 February: At the end ofthe committee stage, MPs will get another chance to debate the bill, followed by a final vote. The bill is almost certain to pass and be sent to the Lords.
> 
> 20 February: The House of Lords is likely to begin debating the bill after parliament returns from recess. This may continue for some days. If peers vote to amend the bill, it will return to the Commons and continue to pass back and forth in a process known as "ping-pong" until the text is agreed. If there are no amendments, the bill is sent to the Queen to receive royal assent and become law.
> 
> 7 March: The government hopes the Brexit bill will have passed through the Lords by this date. Once the bill has received royal assent, May will be able to trigger article 50 at any point thereafter.
> 
> 9 and 10 March: May could use the occasion of an EU summit in Brussels to formally trigger article 50 and start the two-year countdown to the UK leaving the EU.
> 
> 31 March: This is the self-imposed deadline set by May for invoking article 50 by notifying the European council of Britain's intention to leave the EU.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics...hats-next-timeline?client=ms-android-motorola


Amen!


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit tragically influenced US election


Surely not? I also heard that Russia had something to do with the result...


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Surely not? I also heard that Russia had something to do with the result...


Trump invited, "the man behind Brexit" to his campaign too.

He can be added to the list.....


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 299230
> 
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...lt-conservative-neil-carmichael-a7558056.html


So what's so shocking about this?

I would expect no less from our elected representatives


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Surely not? I also heard that Russia had something to do with the result...


Russia, brexit, Trump - all connected.

Farage & Bannon (white supremacist & Trumps chief strategist ) have been friends for years - Have a read at these-

http://savingourplanet.net/index.php/2016/12/28/trump-new-world-order/

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/steve-bannon-will-lead-trumps-white-house

Now add this to understand the link to brexit and ties to Putin.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Lol!!!! Go to [email protected] said "you has"?
> Maybe it is ok in hobbit?
> Or maybe English is their second language ( hobbit being the first , of course)...then all can be forgiven...
> Except being illegal immigrant from Middle Earth.


Or some for us have dyslexia and can get a little confused, I know that's my problem. I try my best with the use of the dictionary but I still get things wrong, but you can carry on taking the p*** if you like.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Lol!!!! Go to [email protected]stockwellcat said "you has"?
> *Maybe it is ok in hobbit?
> Or maybe English is their second language ( hobbit being the first , of course)*...then all can be forgiven...
> *Except being illegal immigrant from Middle Earth.*


 :Jawdrop :Wideyed I am not even going to rise to the challenge.

I'll am going to let this go over my head for now.

Just for reference @cheekyscrip people have different ways of talking and saying things around the UK.

I said as well "it is you that has selective hearing" not "you has". Read the post again @cheekyscrip to see what I said and it doesn't match what you have posted here (underlined above).

I thought what I put in that sentence was in Present Perfect English Grammar.

We were both wrong by the way, the sentence should have been "it is you that has selective reading" as we aren't talking to one another technically as I can't hear you talking to me, I am reading what you are typing 

Anyway moving on.


----------



## Honeys mum

Here's the FULL LIST of MPs who voted against the Brexit Bill - Your Brexit

For anyone whose interested.
http://yourbrexit.co.uk/news/heres-the-full-list-of-mps-who-voted-against-the-brexit-bill/


----------



## MollySmith

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ing-sign-nigel-farage-european-parliament-mep

_"On 23 June 2016 the UK voted to leave the European Union. On 8 November 2016 Donald Trump won the US general election. Both events were seismic, in and of themselves, but it has been the reaction to them that is the most extraordinary part of the story so far.

From having been the rebel outsider positions in their respective countries, both have now risen to a new kind of status that leads online Twitter eggs gleefully to announce the end of liberal democracy and welcome the impending arrival of a new world order.

Throughout this transformation to a new reality the response from many has been to fall over themselves to demonstrate the levels to which we understand this new direction and - terrifyingly - how we will acquiesce to it. Whether it be House Republicans in the US or government ministers in the UK who campaigned for remain, the idea that immigration and internationalism are the roots of all evil is becoming more and more an accepted fact.

When people speak the truth - that immigration has been massively important in contributing not just to our societies but to the health of our economy and public services - they are immediately dismissed as "metropolitan elites", people who do not understand the way of the world. This idea is a dangerous misrepresentation.

When you start using lies to construct so-called solutions to the actual problems people face day in and out, you end up building an entire machinery of deceit. And so Trump's travel ban becomes "defeating terrorism" and Theresa May gets away with pretending we can have a successful Brexit by ending free movement without suffering any loss to our economy.

I'm a Labour Member of the European parliament for the London region, and Labour's environment and climate change spokesperson in Europe, and there are many wonderful aspects of my job. I get to represent the city and country I love in a place where people from 28 different countries, cultures and political histories meet and share ideas. But one aspect often grates on me: parliamentary procedure.

When debates are time-limited, as they were yesterday, when MEPs debated the US's new border controls, there is no opportunity to intervene. As leader of the EFDD (Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy) group in parliament, Nigel Farage gets an automatic free pass to stand up and speak, uninterrupted, for three minutes.

There were many fine and erudite contributions before Farage spoke. The values this place represents do instil a real sense of pride. But some of the comments focused on the need to have a constructive dialogue with Trump, as if he would somehow listen to reasoned and impassioned pleas from MEPs, an organisation he has repeatedly indicated he would want to be destroyed._

_Again, I sat there frustrated, feeling that the sheer mendacity of Trump's justifications for his travel ban were not being challenged.

Time ticked on, and Farage's speaking time drew nearer. I decided I had to try to do something and, noticing the empty chair behind him, I made a sudden decision to grab a piece of paper and scrawl a simple message on it. It wasn't particularly sophisticated, nor - as I may find out rather soon - was it particularly parliamentary behaviour (Ukip has written to Antonio Tajani, president of the European parliament, to complain about the incident). But parliamentary rules are often bent by Ukip and other groups on the right and far right, and above all I felt the urgent need to convey my simple message.

No jobs will be created, no industries saved, no community enhanced by scapegoating immigrants for our problems. It's time to call out those whose diet of hate, division and suspicion will create nothing but misery and poverty. It's time to stop the nuanced language and call out lies where we see them._


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> If you are drinking I need some too.


 I wish !  just in case anyone thinks I'm an alcoholic , I rarely drink cos I take RA drugs .
I was tired though , I have a neuro problem which has recently started and it keeps me awake so i dont go to bed until I'm really tired .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Trump invited, "the man behind Brexit" to his campaign too.
> 
> He can be added to the list.....


Yes, Farage and Trump not Brexit .

DC started Brexit by holding a referendum .

The US citizens are responsible for voting in their President.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Governments White Paper on Exiting The European Union is attached to this post in two formats or available here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...rtnership-with-the-european-union-white-paper


----------



## cheekyscrip

Funny..first had voted..then got the details what they were voting for...

?????


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny..first had voted..then got the details what they were voting for...
> 
> ?????


The Vote was on the bill not the white paper. The white paper is totally different from the bill. This is why the white paper was presented afterwards.


----------



## stockwellcat.

My concern is there are 5 pages like this so far








I am printing it off so I can read it properly on white paper


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> The Vote was on the bill not the white paper. The white paper is totally different front the bill.


Yes. But as it actually explains the bill...
What is meant by it..
As to English...lol...

I was just pulling your hobbity hairy leg...
I am always teased about my English language vandalism ....


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes. But as it actually explains the bill...
> What is meant by it..
> As to English...lol...
> 
> I was just pulling your hobbity hairy leg...
> I am always teased about my English language vandalism ....


It actually doesn't explain the bill at all, I am seeing the information given as it prints off.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> It actually doesn't explain the bill at all, I am seeing the information given as it prints off.


I see Fifty Shades of Grey?

Nothing else..are you sure what you are reading?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I see Fifty Shades of Grey?
> 
> Nothing else..are you sure what you are reading?


Scanning it as it comes out but none of the information is on what was in the bill. The white paper explains what the Government wants to achieve after article 50 is triggered.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Scanning it as it comes out but none of the information is on what was in the bill. The white paper explains what the Government wants to achieve after article 50 is triggered.


Wouldn't it make sense to know that before voting?

Why NOT?
Triggering Article 50 dies not mean we have to leave single market, or customs union, or what happens to expats etc...
But to make decisions without knowing...
I do not see any point.
I understand that first is the plan, then the decision?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I see Fifty Shades of Grey?
> 
> Nothing else..are you sure what you are reading?


Only 5 pages of grey 
The rest is very interesting information which I will now read from cover to cover


----------



## noushka05

So, it appears Mr Trump gave the government a hand drawing up the brexit White Paperompus


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Wouldn't it make sense to know that before voting?
> 
> Why NOT?
> Triggering Article 50 dies not mean we have to leave single market, or customs union, or what happens to expats etc...
> But to make decisions without knowing...
> I do not see any point.
> I understand that first is the plan, then the decision?


Regarding the single market we have to leave it as the Government intends to control our borders which breaches the EUs freedom of movement. The Government intends to renegotiate the Customs Union because Parliament wants to be able to make its own laws so the UK cannot stay in the current Customs Union.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> My concern is there are 5 pages like this so far
> View attachment 299277
> 
> I am printing it off so I can read it properly on white paper


I clicked on the link you gave and it downloaded it into a PDF and all the pages are there.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I clicked on the link you gave and it downloaded it into a PDF and all the pages are there.


I think it's the printable copy that has the grey pages in it for some reason. There are only 5 grey pages.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding the single market we have to leave it as the Government intends to control our borders which breaches the EUs freedom of movement*. *The Government I sends to renegotiate the Customs Union because Parliament wants to be able to make its own laws so the UK cannot stay in the current Customs Union.


We've always controlled our own borders People voted out based on a pack of lies & now we are going to suffer big time.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/the-thing-leavers-missed-when-they-voted-brexit/



















The Crucial Information Leavers Missed When They Voted For Brexit

James O'Brien: 'Leavers should have known everything they needed to "take back control" already existed'.

During his show today the LBC presenter pointed out that many Leave supporters championed Brexit because they wanted to "take back control".

But O'Brien added that the ability to do just that was available under EU law already.

He pointed out that the UK has the right to remove immigrants after three months if they don't fulfil work, study or healthcare criteria.

James continued: "Why didn't you know this? Don't get cross with me. I know you will...I told you a hundred times."

He went on: "Why do you think you didn't know? Now you do know. All along the home secretary, what's her name? Where's she gone now? Faded into obscurity. Theresa something.

"All along as home secretary she had the power to impose three-pronged criteria. Work, study, assets. You don't have them, you don't stay. And if she wanted to, health insurance as well.

"This is the biggest one ever isn't it?"


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat . OIC Weird !

Im glad you can access the PDF cos I thought you might ask me to read it and report back and I really didnt want to spend the afternoon doing that !
. :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We've always controlled our own borders People voted out based on a pack of lies & now we are going to suffer big time.
> 
> http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/the-thing-leavers-missed-when-they-voted-brexit/
> 
> View attachment 299283
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Crucial Information Leavers Missed When They Voted For Brexit
> 
> James O'Brien: 'Leavers should have known everything they needed to "take back control" already existed'.
> 
> During his show today the LBC presenter pointed out that many Leave supporters championed Brexit because they wanted to "take back control".
> 
> But O'Brien added that the ability to do just that was available under EU law already.
> 
> He pointed out that the UK has the right to remove immigrants after three months if they don't fulfil work, study or healthcare criteria.
> 
> James continued: "Why didn't you know this? Don't get cross with me. I know you will...I told you a hundred times."
> 
> He went on: "Why do you think you didn't know? Now you do know. All along the home secretary, what's her name? Where's she gone now? Faded into obscurity. Theresa something.
> 
> "All along as home secretary she had the power to impose three-pronged criteria. Work, study, assets. You don't have them, you don't stay. And if she wanted to, health insurance as well.
> 
> "This is the biggest one ever isn't it?"


Sorry correction. Controlling immigration.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat . OIC Weird !
> 
> Im glad you can access the PDF cos I thought you might ask me to read it and report back and I really didnt want to spend the afternoon doing that !
> . :Hilarious


No it's to long. :Hilarious

If you want to type it all out on here go ahead :Hilarious Actually let them moan if they want to, they should try reading the White Paper themselves, I have attached a printable copy and PDF copy after all.

Just slowly reading it now myself.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Only 5 pages of grey
> The rest is very interesting information which I will now read from cover to cover
> View attachment 299278
> 
> View attachment 299279
> 
> View attachment 299280


Funny but the reaction on twitter from people who know what they're talking about is very different.

*Ashley Cowburn* ‏@*ashcowburn* 2h2 hours ago

Not one mention of NHS in Government's Brexit White Paper (or the £350 million, obviously)

*
Stephen Gethins MP* ‏@*StephenGethins* 1h1 hour ago

This White Paper is a mess, it is a boorach and it is going to have an impact on each and everyone of us. People deserve better.

*Alexander Clarkson* ‏@*APHClarkson* 52m52 minutes ago

@*Law_and_policy* Not a single line on what concrete measures will manage relations with Ireland. It's all fluff. What a useless White Paper

*David Lammy* ‏@*DavidLammy* 2h2 hours ago

#*BrexitWhitePaper* totally unrealistic. Fails to acknowledge scale of the task ahead or damage of leaving single market and customs union


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Funny but the reaction on twitter from people who know what they're talking about is very different.
> 
> *Ashley Cowburn* ‏@*ashcowburn* 2h2 hours ago
> 
> Not one mention of NHS in Government's Brexit White Paper (or the £350 million, obviously)
> 
> *
> Stephen Gethins MP* ‏@*StephenGethins* 1h1 hour ago
> 
> This White Paper is a mess, it is a boorach and it is going to have an impact on each and everyone of us. People deserve better.
> 
> *Alexander Clarkson* ‏@*APHClarkson* 52m52 minutes ago
> 
> @*Law_and_policy* Not a single line on what concrete measures will manage relations with Ireland. It's all fluff. What a useless White Paper
> 
> *David Lammy* ‏@*DavidLammy* 2h2 hours ago
> 
> #*BrexitWhitePaper* totally unrealistic. Fails to acknowledge scale of the task ahead or damage of leaving single market and customs union


You always go off what other people say.

Try reading the White paper yourself and pass your own comments on it.

Ok now I am going back to read it myself.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Sorry correction. Controlling immigration.
> View attachment 299285
> 
> View attachment 299286
> 
> View attachment 299287


Ehh? Same thing. We already do. See above.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> You always go off what other people say.
> 
> Try reading the White paper yourself and pass your own comments on it.
> 
> Ok now I am going back to read it myself.


No because I'm not informed enough to evaluate it myself. I'll leave it to trusted experts if its all the same to you


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No because I'm not informed enough to evaluate it myself. I'll leave it to trusted experts if its all the same to you


Well you don't know what you are missing out on as you aren't using your own opinions but those that have already got things wrong. I will now continue chapter 7.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> No because I'm not informed enough to evaluate it myself. I'll leave it to trusted experts if its all the same to you


ha! I'm not falling for that excuse ! 
I'm sure you would get the gist of it !

ETa I wonder where Goblin is , not seen him here for a few days . I bet he's reading it at this very minute.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Trump invited, "the man behind Brexit" to his campaign too.
> 
> He can be added to the list.....


All I can say then is that the USA voters must either be very fickle or very thick if they have been influenced by either or both of those people they got what they deserved.
And you can say one thing for mr trump, he is certainly getting on with the job.


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> Yes, Farage and Trump not Brexit .
> 
> DC started Brexit by holding a referendum .
> 
> The US citizens are responsible for voting in their President.


 Also circumstances such the banking crisis , a terrible time for many in the US, towns devastated , loss of homes , jobs , and the resulting poverty .


----------



## stockwellcat.

I only have one query at the moment on the White Paper.
As it has become apparent that Donald Trump is a protectionist to a certain extent (wanting to protect the citizens of America which is fair enough) how will chapter 9 work out with the UK trading with America?

Page 51 sentence at the bottom of section 9.1


> An international rules based system is crucial for underpinning free trade and to ward off protectionist.


Page 55 section 9.2


> The new United States Administration, the world's biggest economy, has said that they are interested in an early trade agreement with the UK.


I know Trump has mentioned trading with countries on a country to country basis instead of a huge organisation like the EU. I can to an extent understand why he wants to do this.

I hope when the UK gets to negotiating with America that the protection of the UK's citizens rights will be put first and foremost as well as any environmental agreements the UK engages in like the Paris Agreement and animal rights?

I suppose as well it depends on the type of trade deal the UK comes to with America?

Sensible answers please and not endless pages of quoted information from newspapers.


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat I googled the definition of protectionism , - its more to do with imports and charging taxes on them .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat I googled the definition of protectionism , - its more to do with imports and charging taxes on them .


So I guess Trump has been mislabelled then as a protectionist in this context?


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat I googled the definition of protectionism , - its more to do with imports and charging taxes on them .


This is what experts say...
Lol.
Not what @stockwellcat may think about...
And as the noble hobbit banned us from using newspapers I am going to gaze into my cristal ball and read my Tarot deck...


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> So I guess Trump has been mislabelled then as a protectionist in this context?


I've not read the white paper but I think the UK would not want to trade with him if he charges us stiff tariffs and taxes to export our goods to the US ,it would not be worth our while economically .


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> This is what experts say...
> Lol.
> Not what @stockwellcat may think about...
> And as the noble hobbit banned us from using newspapers I am going to gaze into my cristal ball and read my Tarot deck...


@cheekyscrip with her crystal ball :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> This is what experts say...
> Lol.
> Not what @stockwellcat may think about...
> And as the noble hobbit banned us from using newspapers I am going to gaze into my cristal ball and read my Tarot deck...


It's so hard isn't it @cheekyscrip trying to answer the question yourself (this is called your own opinion) or simply doing like @kimthecat did  instead of putting endless articles from newspapers on here


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> @cheekyscrip with her crystal ball :Hilarious
> View attachment 299291


I see....I see...A Hangman, A Devil , The Tower gathered around The Wheel of Fortune...laughing...under The Moon The Fool stands alone.

Custom unions serve all , what a point of different laws made by all countries for themselves? More red tape, more waste, more tariff wars, more time and money wasted.
This is why even Switzerland is in.
You shoot your own horse being out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The back of the white paper has Annex A which is about how other countries outside the EU solve disputes and Annex B about the UK/Ireland.

Very interesting document.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The UK can't be doing that bad as Mark Carney the Governer of the Bank of England has revised the UK's growth forecast from 0.8% to 2% (which is the same as the ONS forecast) for 2017 which is 0.3% off what the forecast was before the referendum which was 2.3%. Also he is saying the UK's growth will peak at 2.7% next year (2018) which is 0.1% off the growth forecast made before the referendum which was 2.8%.

http://news.sky.com/story/bank-of-england-raises-uk-growth-forecast-again-to-2-for-2017-10753130


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Yes, Farage and Trump not Brexit .
> 
> DC started Brexit by holding a referendum .
> 
> The US citizens are responsible for voting in their President.


Yes, indeed they are but the leave vote was influential in Trump's victory.

Front National's Marie Le Penn recognises this and has said words to the effect that Brexit and the Trump could result in her own victory in France in her chilling vision, "Our new world is just beginning" (Don't recall her exact words). I hope to God she's wrong.

I heard some Trump backing Americans interviewed mention Brexit as their influence.

Both Brexit and Trump have one thing in common: Trump (who, along with Putin were the only world leaders to support leaving the EU) and Farage.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> I only have one query at the moment on the White Paper.
> As it has become apparent that Donald Trump is a protectionist to a certain extent (wanting to protect the citizens of America which is fair enough) how will chapter 9 work out with the UK trading with America?
> 
> Page 51 sentence at the bottom of section 9.1
> 
> Page 55 section 9.2
> 
> I know Trump has mentioned trading with countries on a country to country basis instead of a huge organisation like the EU. I can to an extent understand why he wants to do this.
> 
> I hope when the UK gets to negotiating with America that the protection of the UK's citizens rights will be put first and foremost as well as any environmental agreements the UK engages in like the Paris Agreement and animal rights?
> 
> I suppose as well it depends on the type of trade deal the UK comes to with America?
> 
> Sensible answers please and not endless pages of quoted information from newspapers.


Well, unfortunately my crystal ball is in for repairs, so rational extrapolation is all we have 

Trump is rapidly demonstrating he is unstable as water (particularly emotionally), and he also has a long and well documented history of reneging on business deals once he has what he wants from them. His conduct so far, particulrly when it comes to other world leaders, further demonstrates that he can and will turn from friend to foe in an instant if he thinks he is being criticised, challenged or opposed, and that he is not only very happy to do that publicly but will also make the cost of appeasement high. I'd suggest he isn't the correct person to be placing a great weight of expectaction or reliance on, and I certainly wouldnt trust him to offer a fair deal or a level playing field.

Likewise, I don't think we can rely on him to support environmental protection (unless it proves populist or profitable). He has already demonstrated he considered free and open sharing of environmental data, reports and opinions undesireable, desires to withdraw from a number of environmental agreements, and I believe one of the House Republicans is already working on a bill that, if passed, would completely abolish the Environmental Protection Agency. I would imagine workers rights are also low on his priority list, the USA has very little in the way of employee rights, and some of our own politicians have already been making noises about deregulating various aspects of the working environment that hinder profitable business. There hasn't been much elaboration on the specifics of that, but I would suspect that working hours, health and safety, environmental protections and possibly things like workplace pensions and the corporate manslaughter reglations will be amongst the more obvious targets.

In addition to the prevelant "America First" atmosphere,the USA is also a much larger country with it's own financial centres, so I'm not sure how many bargaining chips we will be able to bring to the table as I can't see we have that much they actually need or want (aside from the NHS, of course). Basically, if the USA chose to go that route they could pretty much dictate whatever trade conditions they liked, and we'd struggle to say no providing they were an improvement on WTO rules.

The EU would have a harder time doing that, as the finance aspect is trickier for them, but if the banks decide to switch trading centre to a different EU country then that barrier to a tough EU stance would be removed.

That Trump says he would prefer to deal with individual countries is indeed understandable, as anyone would prefer to be the substantially biggest fish in the negotiating pond. I'm not sure if he realises he can't do that with EU countries, which could make for some amusing Twitter outbursts I'm sure, but he's already demonstrated how willing he is to throw his weight around with other leaders, so it would be reasonable to assume his belligerence will continue. Whether or not he is willing to sacrifice relationships with other countries entirely remains to be seen (it is noteable, for example, that the current muslim ban does not extend to countries which he has business links with, or those that he USA relies on for oil. Or, indeed, any country where a national of that country has been involved in a terror attack on US soil, but that's a different debate) - that is one scenario that could potentially work in our favour, but only if we too refuse to get into bed with Trump.

All in all, in the current political climate I would generally expect a trade deal with the USA to be heavily favourable to the US. Of course, all this is really rather moot as we cannot even _start_ negotiating external trade deals with the USA or anyone else until over two years time when we have actually left the EU, and who knows what the world will look like then?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Yes, indeed they are but the leave vote was influential in Trump's victory.
> 
> Front National's Marie Le Penn recognises this and has said words to the effect that Brexit and the Trump could result in her own victory in France in her chilling vision, "Our new world is just beginning" (Don't recall her exact words). I hope to God she's wrong.
> 
> I heard some Trump backing Americans interviewed mention Brexit as their influence.
> 
> Both Brexit and Trump have one thing in common: Trump (who, along with Putin were the only world leaders to support leaving the EU) and Farage.


That's right, the whole world is falling apart because of Brexit. HAHAHA

Thought you said we didn't have any worldwide influence and Theresa should realise that


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> That's right, the whole world is falling apart because of Brexit. HAHAHA
> 
> Thought you said we didn't have any worldwide influence and Theresa should realise that


You see Serbia had little influence yet seven shots in Sarajevo ended in millions dead and four years of war...

Domino effect or avalanche comes to mind ...

Yes Rona. Brexit had catastrophic influence on Trump being elected. Putin might have not succeeded alone to tarnish Clinton enough.

Now people are dying in Ukraine.Again. Killed by " separatists" aka dressed up Russian forces, knowing NATO will do nothing at all.

Poland is swelling with fleeing refugees from there.

So Poles who would like to leave UK and go back find it hard to search for employment and still overcrowd UK...

@DT dear.. Trump delivers every day.. After offending Mexico and Latin America, Muslim, China, Pacific nations , threatening Iran,again Mexico, he moved to abuse Australia and University of California.
He also challenged The Terminator...lol. That would be interesting to watch...

So...what next?

Oh ..the state visit and giving free rein of NHS to the Clockwise Orange ...
Meanwhile Trump is lifting sanctions on Russia.

Putin supports Brexit...anyone here thinks it is because he is a friend of Britain?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Thought you said we didn't have any worldwide influence and Theresa should realise that


I didn't actually say that. I said May believes, or believed the EU will accept her terms or she would walk away. "My terms or no terms" in other words.

Yes the UK is certainly having an "influence" on the world. More like a reputation, a very negative one at that!


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I didn't actually say that. I said May believes, or believed the EU will accept her terms or she would walk away. "My terms or no terms" in other words.
> 
> Yes the UK is certainly having an "influence" on the world. More like a reputation, a very negative one at that!


Why?
Putin, Le Pen, Trump and...( here I run out of ideas) certainly appreciate.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
Trumpster thinks the Paris agreement & the Kyoto climate-change treaty are pure B-S.
.
moreover, he regards any environmental protections whatever as a serious hindrance to business - he wants to deconstruct the Clean Air & Clean Water Acts of Nixon's era, & to unleash all the extractive industries on our national & state parks, even designated wilderness areas, without any regulation..Mountaintop-removal coal mining has already devastated large sections of Appalachia even *with!* environmental regs in place -
what do U think mining, coal / gas / oil / uranium / precious metals, etc, will do to our water, soil, air, & landscape with ZERO controls, maximizing extraction & profit?
.
timber companies are salivating at the chance to clearcut the last old-growth forests, which are quite literally irreplaceable.
.
As for "animal rights", don't be daft.
The only animals with *any* rights in TrumpWorld are humans, & many of our civil rights as U-S citizens are being whittled away as we speak.
A free press, the right to assembly, right to safe working conditions & a minimum wage, a national healthcare policy that provides for insurance & forbids insurers refusing coverage of pre-existing conditions, ...
polluters required to minimize their damage & PAY to clean it up, restoration of damaged landscape so that at least the entire remaining mountain won't erode into the adjacent watercourses & fill the valleys with debris, & on & on & on.
.
in TrumpWorld, corporations - who are PERSONS with every right of a living, breathing citizen, per that disastrous late-20s legislation -
have more rights than humans. Business is all - profits are the ultimate measure of the universal good.
.
he doesn't give an aerial sexual assault on a radially-accelerated toroidal pastry how slaughtered livestock die, nor how they're housed, fed, shipped, handled, or any other dam* detail, so long as he gets his bacon, beef, eggs, & fish.
& if wild stocks go extinct, so feckin what?! -
eat domesticated. Get over it.
.
.
The state of the planet means nothing; he only cares about the ticker-tape from Wall st, & the rising wealth of his billionaire supporters.
If it's profitable in the short term, be dam*ed to the long-term consequences - let the grandkids deal with it, he'll be dead.
.
"sustainable" isn't even in his vocabulary.
"Organic" is just a chemistry course he didn't take in college.
"Diplomacy" is boring & wastes time; just threaten other countries into doing what U want, or what benefits U; if it benefits them, that's OK, too, but not critical.
.
he's a schoolyard bully with an Army, Navy, & Air Force.
He recognizes no limits & listens to no one; he self-selects his "facts" & ignores all discrepancies.
.
he's also notorious for not fulfilling contracts.
Good luck in any dealings with him. Getting Ur money & having him deliver what's promised will be a good trick.
.
.
.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I didn't actually say that. I said May believes, or believed the EU will accept her terms or she would walk away. "My terms or no terms" in other words.
> 
> Yes the UK is certainly having an "influence" on the world. More like a reputation, a very negative one at that!


I like attitude


----------



## stuaz

The white paper was a bit of a let down. It was basically the PMs twelve points fleshed out barely. For example It mentions things related to Ireland for example but just says that "talks" will occur which is a no brainier. Was hoping for a bit more "meat" so to speak about the various areas.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I like attitude


Then Trump is full of it...oozes it...worldwide...
You must love it ...


----------



## 1290423

Im still waiting for the lights to go out


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> I like attitude


Me too.......its my favorite pastime....


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Me too.......its my favorite pastime....











Another DT , full of it...


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 299323
> 
> Another DT , full of it...


You know me so well


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> No because I'm not informed enough to evaluate it myself. I'll leave it to trusted experts if its all the same to you


Noushka - you say here that you are not informed enough to comment on this point. But you do say that the Conservative party is deliberately trying to dismantle the NHS.

I have a nephew who has a congenital heart defect whose life has been saved on more than one occassion by NHS surgeons, an old mum who has had a hip replacement amongst other things and I have always been impressed with the service I have been given, so am very concerned about your pessimism.

Genuinely concerned. What is the information you have that does make you informed enough in this instance?


----------



## stockwellcat.

The latest Brexit deal is a good one for the public. We will be entitled to 14 weeks holiday per year it says so on the graph (Chart 7.1) on page 32. Can't wait. What can we do with those extra holiday days? Only 38 working weeks per year. That's a deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> The latest Brexit deal is a good one for the public. We will be entitled to 14 weeks holiday per year it says so on the graph (Chart 7.1) on page 32. Can't wait. What can we do with those extra holiday days? Only 38 working weeks per year. That's a deal.
> 
> View attachment 299347
> 
> View attachment 299348


And great deal with USA...
And 350mln for NHS. Weekly.

And no more immigrants.

Replaced by unicorns.


----------



## 1290423

Lol xx only folk who will get 14 weeks holiday a year are school children and well I guess that means teachers


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> And great deal with USA...
> And 350mln for NHS. Weekly.
> 
> And no more immigrants.
> 
> Replaced by unicorns.


I'll have that deal though:
38 working weeks and 14 weeks national holiday. Yes please.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Lol xx only folk who will get 14 weeks holiday a year are school children and well I guess that means teachers


Well the Government said we get 14 weeks national holidays per year. It says so in the white paper


----------



## stockwellcat.

It's a typo by the way and is in every news paper tomorrow. How embarrassing for the Government.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> It's a typo by the way and is in every news paper tomorrow. How embarrassing for the Government.


How many more typos?
Lol.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Well the Government said we get 14 weeks national holidays per year. It says so in the white paper


! Maybe they meant days lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> ! Maybe they meant days lol


You do know MPs will pick up on this typo and mention it tomorrow or next week in Parliament. Lol.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> You do know MPs will pick up on this typo and mention it tomorrow or next week in Parliament. Lol.


Except for MPs...surely...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Except for MPs...surely...


All right MP's (Excluding Government Ministers).
Sorry I have to be grammar perfect on here now


----------



## Jonescat

Which has been my argument for a long time - they aren't experienced enough to do the job, and they haven't got enough time or people even to proof read a showpiece document. What hope has some minor piece of legisalation on an unfashionable topic got of being coherent?

This stuff is hard, and they are amateurs.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> All right MP's (Excluding Government Ministers).
> Sorry I have to be grammar perfect on here now


No. Hobbits are excused and all other immigrants.
MPs - plural. MP's - single.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Except for MPs...surely...


I was looking forward to those extra holiday days though 

Government dangling the carrot regarding extra holiday days


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I was looking forward to those extra holiday days though
> 
> Government dangling the carrot regarding extra holiday days
> View attachment 299352


Many carrots. For many donkeys.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Heard a good one on Question time a woman voted out because the banans in her supermarket were stright and not curved.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Happy Paws said:


> Heard a good one on Question time a woman voted out because the banans in her supermarket were stright and not curved.


I cringed for her, well Ok I also laughed at her! Poor women she is surely going to watch herself later and have a `Oh god did I really say that` moment!


----------



## Happy Paws2

3dogs2cats said:


> I cringed for her, well Ok I also laughed at her! Poor women she is surely going to watch herself later and have a `Oh god did I really say that` moment!


The thing is lot's of people believe things like that, that's the problem.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> The thing is lot's of people believe things like that, that's the problem.


Indeed I heard someone interviewed on the day after the referendum who said he voted leave because he didn't like health and safety!

Some claims are incredible: Return of Imperial weights and measures, blue British passports and the return of the traditional British industries of old.

Did any of these people do any research?

I like the one about light bulbs too. 100W+ bulbs were never actually banned by the EU contrary to what the right wing press reported. Go to any hardware shop where you can buy "rough service" bulbs which work just as well.

So the banana reason comes as no surprise to me.

Pathetic isn't it.


----------



## noushka05

.



samuelsmiles said:


> Noushka - you say here that you are not informed enough to comment on this point. But you do say that the Conservative party is deliberately trying to dismantle the NHS.
> 
> I have a nephew who has a congenital heart defect whose life has been saved on more than one occassion by NHS surgeons, an old mum who has had a hip replacement amongst other things and I have always been impressed with the service I have been given, so am very concerned about your pessimism.
> 
> Genuinely concerned. What is the information you have that does make you informed enough in this instance?


Hiya @samuelsmiles, firstly I'm really sorry about your nephew & mums health problems. The tories are putting all our lives at risk, again, my info came direct from experts - but now we must all surely be aware the NHS is in big crisis? (a manufactured crisis) This is a demolition by stealth so although you may not be feeling the impact yet ( largely thanks to the fantastic dedication of NHS staff)- the crisis will become obvious to everyone soon. Everything the health professionals warned us would happen prior to the general election is coming to pass.

The passing of the Health & Social Care Act 2012, was the beginning of the end for our precious NHS. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/30/health-act-means-death-of-nhs

The second phase of its dismantling - STPs. If you're unaware what STPs are I you really should read this https://nhaspace.com/2016/08/28/5-things-you-should-know-about-stp/-

& read the statement signed by London GPs voicing their concern
http://www.gponline.com/gps-demand-halt-stp-process-amid-fears-severe-nhs-cuts/article/1419778

If you cant be bothered to read just listen to this short explanation.






If you don't believe the experts just listen to Jeremy Hunt (who, by the way, co-wrote a book with Michael Gove calling for our NHS to be replaced with private health insurance)






There is a planned demo happening on the 4th of March. More info here if you're interested.










http://www.ournhs.info/

Our National Health Service is at breaking point.

On the backdrop of continued cuts and closures, private companies seek to gain even more of a foothold within the NHS.

Continued pay restraint has meant the value of NHS staff salaries has fallen by 14% since 2010. There are now 25,000 nursing and 3,500 midwifery vacancies in NHS England alone.

Theresa May's demands for yet more austerity in the NHS represent a real risk to the safety of patients and the service. The Government's latest plans for Sustainability and Transformation Plans are in reality just a smokescreen for further cuts and its latest instrument of privatisation.

The NHS is the single greatest achievement of working class people in Britain. We cannot allow it to be undermined and ultimately destroyed. We must march together, sending a clear message to the government; "the NHS will last as long as there are folk with the faith to fight for it."


----------



## KittenKong

John McDonnell, although well meaning in defending the NHS has lost my respect and confidence in voting with this dreadful far right Tory government which, as a result, could well accelerate the NHS's demise by giving May the mandate for her extreme Brexit proposal.

McDonnell has a cheek to consider showing his face at the demo quite frankly, as would Corbyn and other Labour MPs who voted with the government.

Superb post though Noushka. I share your concerns and find it incredible many find the NHS is safe under this far right Tory government. That's as plausible as the £350m promise from the Leave campaign

Here's a Labour MP who has my respect. Wish they were more like him:


----------



## kimthecat

I wonder what will happen about the our and the US nuclear weapons based in Germany . Do you think they will give them back or confiscate them!


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> All right MP's (Excluding Government Ministers).
> Sorry I have to be grammar perfect on here now


You could always point out that Cheeky starts her sentences with co-ordinating conjunctions .  
(at cheeky  :Mooning :Hilarious )

Another puzzle , is it coordinating or co-ordinating ? Hyphens are being dropped now .


----------



## Colliebarmy

kimthecat said:


> I wonder what will happen about the our and the US nuclear weapons based in Germany . Do you think they will give them back or confiscate them!


Germany to invade UK and US air bases?...that could be fun....


----------



## Colliebarmy

the MP's voted, and not by a slight majority, to agree with the vote of the people.....to leave the EU....

hurrah!


----------



## KittenKong

Colliebarmy said:


> the MP's voted, and not by a slight majority, to agree with the vote of the people.....to leave the EU....
> 
> hurrah!


The Leave vote won only by a slim majority. If complete withdrawal from anything Europe and the UK becoming an unofficial annex of Trump's US the country will forever be divided.

This may please you and others but not the rest of the population. I'm sure many leave voters will be horrified at the hard Brexit proposals as leaving the single market wasn't on the Leave agenda, unless you follow Farage. All for the blue passport, how wonderful.

In order to unite the UK the government need to find a compromise that suits both leave and EU supporters. I'm very much the latter which is why I support the Norway/Swiss method which maintains many benefits of EU membership without being in the EU. These countries are doing rather well as a result.

Yes. MPs voted with a large majority, but they're ignoring nearly half the population in doing so, and will lose any respect and many votes as a result.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Latest Brexit Court Case blocked by UK High Court in London. The case was over the UK leaving the EEA. The Government hasn't made up its mind on what it wants to do about the EEA yet so the judge blocked the case saying it was premature in nature.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> *But only by a slim majority.*


384 (498 votes for to 114 votes against) majority isn't a slim majority @KittenKong that's a large majority.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> 384 (498 votes for to 114 votes against) majority isn't a slim majority @KittenKong that's a large majority


But not the majority being referred to


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> But not the majority being referred to


@KittenKong just changed what he said and added "*The Leave vote won*" infront of what he originally said


----------



## KittenKong

Yes indeed as far as the parliamentary vote was concerned.

I was referring to the 52%/48% referendum result.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 299392
> 
> 
> Yes indeed as far as the parliamentary vote was concerned.
> 
> I was referring to the 52%/48% referendum result.


At least that is cleared up now that you are still going on about the original referendum results whilst most people have moved on and talking about the Parliamentary vote that took place this week


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> @KittenKong just changed what he said and added "*The Leave vote won*" infront of what he originally said


Kudos to them for clarifying after realising anaphora isn't for everyone, then


----------



## leashedForLife

.
I didn't think for a moment that KK referred to anything but the originnal referendum when speaking of "a narrow majority" -
& I don't believe voting agaist Brexit negates Ur right to any future part in the process, or expressing any opinions, suggestions, etc, re the Brexit terms & process?...
"Remain" voters are still UK-citizens, with all the attached rights thereof.
.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> You could always point out that Cheeky starts her sentences with co-ordinating conjunctions .
> (at cheeky  :Mooning :Hilarious )
> 
> Another puzzle , is it coordinating or co-ordinating ? Hyphens are being dropped now .


It is apparently ok in case of transition.

My English is a bit blunt, but it has advantages...

Today I got very convoluted reply to my query from Fricking Price Idiots (FPI) as to why they cannot..so just answered" Are you joking?"...and presto! They could and did.

Sometimes wonder what will happen if ALL who work in UK and came/ were born in EU countries go on strike, wherever they work...how UK will survive that?

Hypothetical question.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> It is apparently ok in case of transition.
> 
> My English is a bit blunt, but it has advantages...
> 
> Today I got very convoluted reply to my query from Fricking Price Idiots (FPI) as to why they cannot..so just answered" Are you joking?"...and presto! They could and did.
> 
> Sometimes wonder what will happen if ALL who work in UK and came/ were born in EU countries go on strike, wherever they work...how UK will survive that?
> 
> Hypothetical question.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@cheekyscrip


----------



## cheekyscrip

I ha


stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 299435
> 
> @cheekyscrip


I have handcuffs, taser, very sharp pencils and hard working rubbers...
Lol!!!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> It is apparently ok in case of transition.
> 
> My English is a bit blunt, but it has advantages...
> 
> .


 you would make a good English teacher There's shortage over here !


----------



## Honeys mum

Brexit legal challenge BLOCKED by High Court - Farage says 'good news' | Politics | News | Express.co.uk


----------



## 1290423

Well I for one am delarioisly happy, glorious feeling just thinking of getting out of a club I never wanted to be a member of anyway


----------



## 1290423

By the way, ladybird are publishing a new book
The Ladybird book of "Economics for the terminally hard of thinking".


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Well I for one am delarioisly happy, glorious feeling just thinking of getting out of a club I never wanted to be a member of anyway


Me to


----------



## MollySmith




----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> View attachment 299475


Yawn. I'll raise you....

"
*Time for the Remoaners to leave the UK*

There are a few things that aggravate me about 'Brexit'.

Well, not a few things, as such, because the aggravation comes from just one source - Remoaners.

Remoaners are those who refuse to accept the will of the majority of those voting, who voted to leave the European Union. Remoaners are bad losers.

Oh, by the way, let's congratulate the EU for making it to the 22nd consecutive year that their auditors have been unable to accept and publish their accounts. This year the reason is that the EU's accounts are "materially affected by error". Pretty much like previous years, really. Why the heck would anybody want to be part of a club that doesn't publish accounts? Can't publish accounts. The EU is such a gravy train that nobody really makes a fuss about this unaccountability. But, I digress.

So, the majority of those bothering to vote decided that they wanted the UK to get out of the EU.

That included me.

Within days of the result being a resounding victory for let's get the hell out of this mad expensive rich-man's club, I got told I was racist.

Yeah, they told me I'd voted to leave because I was racist. I was stupid. I was xenophobic. I was, well, anything but making an informed choice.

The aggressive Remoaners had started their bullying. Bullying that just won't stop. Bullying that seems to be getting more and more aggressive towards those who dared to have a different opinion to theirs.

I turn on the radio and the chat shows are full of sneering leftie presenters like James O'Brien and now Nick Abbot, constantly talking 'Brexiters' down. They slag us off as a given, and try to humiliate or demean us during show after show. Their favourite phrase seems to be "I told you so". The slightest jitters of currency markets, "I told you so". The sudden unavailability of Marmite, "I told you so". It's non stop doom gloom and "I told you so".

Naturally of course, they ignore the positives, mainly because they are kinda suffering from confirmation bias and cognitive dissidence. They end up being like the worst condescending bitch of a mother-in-law.

You know the one I mean, the mother-in-law that hates you. You are never good enough for her darling daughter. When you were to marry she looked down her nose and said the immortal words, "Oh but darling, you are only a bus driver". Everything you subsequently did was either wrong in her eyes and so gets loudly tut-tutted about and constantly brought up and talked about, or if it was good gets ignored and never spoken of again. She lives in denial of your marriage and constantly tells your wife that she could have done so much better. Years later when you divorce due to your wife's serial infidelity, she's the mother-in-law who says, "I knew it wouldn't last, he wasn't good enough for you my dear".

Remoaners are like the mother-in-laws from hell, bitching at any opportunity, constantly living for gloom and doom. Terrified that Brexiters might actually be the ones who were right.

So, the leftie talk show hosts are full of this evil mother-in-lawness. Leftie media luvvies are so out of touch with reality that they really can't see anything but anger at not getting their own way. It is all outside of their scope of comprehension.

The BBC is also full of these lefties, putting their confirmation bias over and over again onto any news story they file.

I just wish the Remoaners would shut the **** up. Yes, there will be blips and inflation will return slightly, but so what? Stop running around as if the sky has fallen. It hasn't. Stop being in denial. Embrace the future, or at least stop the annoying running doom and gloom commentary along with the various tactics designed to derail the decision taken by the majority of those voting.

Remoaners need to grow up and behave like they are part of this country, or move to another.

"

(Christopher England)


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Yawn. I'll raise you....
> 
> "
> *Time for the Remoaners to leave the UK*
> 
> There are a few things that aggravate me about 'Brexit'.
> 
> Well, not a few things, as such, because the aggravation comes from just one source - Remoaners.
> 
> Remoaners are those who refuse to accept the will of the majority of those voting, who voted to leave the European Union. Remoaners are bad losers.
> 
> Oh, by the way, let's congratulate the EU for making it to the 22nd consecutive year that their auditors have been unable to accept and publish their accounts. This year the reason is that the EU's accounts are "materially affected by error". Pretty much like previous years, really. Why the heck would anybody want to be part of a club that doesn't publish accounts? Can't publish accounts. The EU is such a gravy train that nobody really makes a fuss about this unaccountability. But, I digress.
> 
> So, the majority of those bothering to vote decided that they wanted the UK to get out of the EU.
> 
> That included me.
> 
> Within days of the result being a resounding victory for let's get the hell out of this mad expensive rich-man's club, I got told I was racist.
> 
> Yeah, they told me I'd voted to leave because I was racist. I was stupid. I was xenophobic. I was, well, anything but making an informed choice.
> 
> The aggressive Remoaners had started their bullying. Bullying that just won't stop. Bullying that seems to be getting more and more aggressive towards those who dared to have a different opinion to theirs.
> 
> I turn on the radio and the chat shows are full of sneering leftie presenters like James O'Brien and now Nick Abbot, constantly talking 'Brexiters' down. They slag us off as a given, and try to humiliate or demean us during show after show. Their favourite phrase seems to be "I told you so". The slightest jitters of currency markets, "I told you so". The sudden unavailability of Marmite, "I told you so". It's non stop doom gloom and "I told you so".
> 
> Naturally of course, they ignore the positives, mainly because they are kinda suffering from confirmation bias and cognitive dissidence. They end up being like the worst condescending bitch of a mother-in-law.
> 
> You know the one I mean, the mother-in-law that hates you. You are never good enough for her darling daughter. When you were to marry she looked down her nose and said the immortal words, "Oh but darling, you are only a bus driver". Everything you subsequently did was either wrong in her eyes and so gets loudly tut-tutted about and constantly brought up and talked about, or if it was good gets ignored and never spoken of again. She lives in denial of your marriage and constantly tells your wife that she could have done so much better. Years later when you divorce due to your wife's serial infidelity, she's the mother-in-law who says, "I knew it wouldn't last, he wasn't good enough for you my dear".
> 
> Remoaners are like the mother-in-laws from hell, bitching at any opportunity, constantly living for gloom and doom. Terrified that Brexiters might actually be the ones who were right.
> 
> So, the leftie talk show hosts are full of this evil mother-in-lawness. Leftie media luvvies are so out of touch with reality that they really can't see anything but anger at not getting their own way. It is all outside of their scope of comprehension.
> 
> The BBC is also full of these lefties, putting their confirmation bias over and over again onto any news story they file.
> 
> I just wish the Remoaners would shut the **** up. Yes, there will be blips and inflation will return slightly, but so what? Stop running around as if the sky has fallen. It hasn't. Stop being in denial. Embrace the future, or at least stop the annoying running doom and gloom commentary along with the various tactics designed to derail the decision taken by the majority of those voting.
> 
> Remoaners need to grow up and behave like they are part of this country, or move to another.
> 
> "
> 
> (Christopher England)


If you complain @Satori , it is time for you to leave...


----------



## leashedForLife

.
very much agree, Cheeky. 
.
Satori,
if U just can't stand the fact that ppl are genuinely concerned about stepping off a cliff into the unknown, rather than tell them to stuff their worries up their ani & get, lost,
U could simply un-subscribe from the thread, & avoid abrading Ur tender sensibilities.
.
I don't even *live* in the UK, nor do i have any close relatives there - nor in western Europe.
Nonetheless, i'm genuinely concerned about Brexit, the economic fallout & the political climate in both the UK & Europe -
as inevitably, this will affect the WORLD, not "just" the UK & 27 other member nations.
.
.
If U think that's an exaggeration, i'll remind U of the global repercussions of the collapse of the housing-bubble in the U-S in 2008, & the ensuing economic catastrophe -
which many nations are still recovering from, & many individuals will *Never* recover from.
Many ppl lost their homes, their jobs, their credit ratings, their life savings - everything.
But it was "just the U-S..." & "only housing..." to begin with.
.
the toxic financial-derivatives that spread their tentacles into market funds, stocks, construction, investment firms, etc, etc, etc, *began* as overvalued housing sold to buyers who were barely able to meet their mortgage payments, deliberately enticed by promises of guaranteed money as their property gained value, in just a few years -
instead, they were soon underwater & deep in debt, saddled with a house worth less than half its value at the time they signed the purchase contract.
.
Unzipping the many deep & complex ties between the UK & the EU has far-more potential to rock the global economy of all nations -
& particularly the economies of the 28 involved, negatively.
.
if U want to throw rainbow confetti while riding a unicorn, so extreme is Ur rapture over Brexit, start a thread about how ecstatic U are & the delightful prospects before U, during & post-Brexit.
I promise i won't so much as read it, let alone rain on Ur celebratory parade by posting a cautionary or regretful comment.

*art perfume & poop sugar-cookies, put color-co-ordinated Swarovski crystals on every piece of clothing U own, tattoo the Union Jack across Ur face...
just don't expect the rest of us to squeal with delight & anticipate Brexit as if it was the pending arrival of the Tooth-Fairy with gold coins for all.

We're worried; U're delighted. 
Nobody knows how high the cliff, how deep the water at the bottom, or what's lurking under the surface -
U think it's mermaids & treasure chests. We'll see, in due time.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> .
> very much agree, Cheeky.
> .
> Satori,
> if U just can't stand the fact that ppl are genuinely concerned about stepping off a cliff into the unknown, rather than tell them to stuff their worries up their ani & get, lost,
> U could simply un-subscribe from the thread, & avoid abrading Ur tender sensibilities.
> .
> I don't even *live* in the UK, nor do i have any close relatives there - nor in western Europe.
> Nonetheless, i'm genuinely concerned about Brexit, the economic fallout & the political climate in both the UK & Europe -
> as inevitably, this will affect the WORLD, not "just" the UK & 27 other member nations.
> .
> .
> If U think that's an exaggeration, i'll remind U of the global repercussions of the collapse of the housing-bubble in the U-S in 2008, & the ensuing economic catastrophe -
> which many nations are still recovering from, & many individuals will *Never* recover from.
> Many ppl lost their homes, their jobs, their credit ratings, their life savings - everything.
> But it was "just the U-S..." & "only housing..." to begin with.
> .
> the toxic financial-derivatives that spread their tentacles into market funds, stocks, construction, investment firms, etc, etc, etc, *began* as overvalued housing sold to buyers who were barely able to meet their mortgage payments, deliberately enticed by promises of guaranteed money as their property gained value, in just a few years -
> instead, they were soon underwater & deep in debt, saddled with a house worth less than half its value at the time they signed the purchase contract.
> .
> Unzipping the many deep & complex ties between the UK & the EU has far-more potential to rock the global economy of all nations -
> & particularly the economies of the 28 involved, negatively.
> .
> if U want to throw rainbow confetti while riding a unicorn, so extreme is Ur rapture over Brexit, start a thread about how ecstatic U are & the delightful prospects before U, during & post-Brexit.
> I promise i won't so much as read it, let alone rain on Ur celebratory parade by posting a cautionary or regretful comment.
> 
> *art perfume & poop sugar-cookies, put color-co-ordinated Swarovski crystals on every piece of clothing U own, tattoo the Union Jack across Ur face...
> just don't expect the rest of us to squeal with delight & anticipate Brexit as if it was the pending arrival of the Tooth-Fairy with gold coins for all.
> 
> We're worried; U're delighted.
> Nobody knows how high the cliff, how deep the water at the bottom, or what's lurking under the surface -
> U think it's mermaids & treasure chests. We'll see, in due time.
> .
> .
> .


I made my decision on Referendum day from making a decision of 42+ years of evidence and voted accordingly so to say I was ill informed is rubbish. I made my decision remoaners, get over yourselves.

EU counter parts yesterday were telling Theresa May in Malta that a trade deal is possible within 2 years with the UK-EU so calm down remoaners.

@Satori has a right to express his/her self just like anyone else has on this thread. Why should he/she unsubscribe from this thread to be silenced because you don't like what you read?
@Satori has a right to contribute to this thread as well just like I have and anyone else that voted leave or remain.


----------



## Satori

leashedForLife said:


> .
> very much agree, Cheeky.
> .
> Satori,
> 
> U could simply un-subscribe from the thread,
> 
> .


What, and miss out on the schadenfreude? Not a chance 

(You'll be pleased to hear that I won't be around today though. Missus is treating me; we'll be out spending some of our Brexit winnings. )


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> What, and miss out on the schadenfreude? Not a chance
> 
> (You'll be pleased to hear that I won't be around today though. Missus is treating me; we'll be out spending some of our Brexit winnings. )


Enjoy your spending spree @Satori


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well you don't know what you are missing out on as you aren't using your own opinions but those that have already got things wrong. I will now continue chapter 7.





kimthecat said:


> ha! I'm not falling for that excuse !
> I'm sure you would get the gist of it !
> 
> ETa I wonder where Goblin is , not seen him here for a few days . I bet he's reading it at this very minute.


lol Sorry but I'm not wasting my time trawling through 77 pages of waffle - my blood pressure wouldn't stand it I'm leaving it to clever, principled people I trust to evaluate. And I haven't heard a single positive thing. They are all saying the white paper is shoddy, lacks any substance, admits we already DO control our own borders & we couldn't be more free & sovereign. And that we have basically been conned.

Maybe you (if you've read the paper Kim) or @stockwellcat could give opinions on this letter - does this sound a fair summary?





















rona said:


> That's right, the whole world is falling apart because of Brexit. HAHAHA
> 
> Thought you said we didn't have any worldwide influence and Theresa should realise that


Experts warned the far right would be emboldened if we voted out. Donald Tusks prediction from June (this is why I tend to listen to those who have far better insight & understanding than we laymen.) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36515680 Just glad I have nothing to reproach myself for.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> lol Sorry but I'm not wasting my time trawling through 77 pages of waffle - my blood pressure wouldn't stand it I'm leaving it to clever, principled people I trust to evaluate. And I haven't heard a single positive thing. They are all saying the white paper is shoddy, lacks any substance, admits we already DO control our own borders & we couldn't be more free & sovereign. And that we have basically been conned.
> 
> Maybe you (if you've read the paper Kim) or @stockwellcat could give opinions on this letter - does this sound a fair summary?
> 
> View attachment 299491
> 
> 
> View attachment 299492
> 
> 
> Experts warned the far right would be emboldened if we voted out. Donald Tusks prediction from June (this is why I tend to listen to those who have far better insight & understanding than we laymen.) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36515680 Just glad I have nothing to reproach myself for.
> 
> View attachment 299490


Who the hell is Alex Bicknell? I just googled this person and is either a 13 year old school boy or works doing Product & Strategy - Red Deer Systems so is no expert that you keep claiming are always right and never can be wrong although have been wrong so far.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Who the hell is Alex Bicknell? I just googled this person and is either a 13 year old school boy or a Product & Strategy - Red Deer Systems so is no expert that you keep claiming are always right and never can be wrong although have been wrong so far.


I don't know who she is. I asked if you agreed with her summary of the white paper as you have read it. And if not, on what points do you disagree with her?.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I don't know who she is. I asked if you agreed with her summary of the white paper as you have read it.


No I don't actually. Try taking a few hours to read it yourself. I understood the White Paper although there is one Chart error on there.

The paper makes reference to various scenarios that's probably why people that are devout Remainers don't understand it. When MP's glanced through the paper the other day seemed to know what it said as Conservative MP's kept quoting points out of it.

I'd love to see Jeremy Corbyn or anyone else do a better job. You forget the Government had no plan because Cameron failed to make one out of arrogance thinking the UK would vote the other way (remain). The Government have done a very good job considering they only had a short space of time to put this together and they are being realistic as well with regards to being successful or unsuccessful with the negotiations.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> No I don't actually. Try taking a few hours to read it yourself. I understood the White Paper although there is one Chart error on there.
> 
> The paper makes reference to various scenarios that's probably why people that are devout Remainers don't understand it. When MP's glanced through the paper the other day seemed to know what it said as Conservative MP's kept quoting points out of it.
> 
> I'd love to see Jeremy Corbyn do a better job.


Sounds like a monkey could do a better job looking at the reports I'm reading:Hilarious

So its not shoddy, filled with inaccuracies & devoid of content then? So what does it say about our NHS then? What are the potential EU negotiating strategies and goals? I'll let you fill me in


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> or a Product & Strategy - Red Deer Systems so is no expert


He's a little more than that

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/alexjbicknell

If this is the one


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Sounds like a monkey could do a better job looking at the reports I'm reading:Hilarious
> 
> So its not shoddy, filled with inaccuracies & devoid of content then? So what does it say about our NHS then? What are the potential EU negotiating strategies and goals? I'll let you fill me in


I'd be here all day typing this out so you understand it and I charge £35 an hour for my time. Are you willing to pay this for my opinion and time


----------



## Calvine

leashedForLife said:


> if U want to throw rainbow confetti while riding a unicorn


What the..?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> I'd be here all day typing this out so you understand it and I charge £35 an hour for my time. Are you willing to pay this for my opinion and time


How convenient


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> How convenient


Well it's Saturday and I have things to do so I'd have to cancel what I have to do to put all my efferts into putting the White Paper into simple layman's terms so you understand it adding my opinion to it as well. £35 per hour is reasonable seeing as I'd have to cancel what I have planned.


----------



## 1290423

Neither of the campaigns put forward but either the leave camp nor the remain camp influenced my vote, I had been waiting for twenty seven years for that vote, myself and a few million others finally Had that opportunity and we all know the result. 
To now be labelled xenophobic, racist amongst a whole host of other names by some in the remain camp is unjust and uncalled for and just goes to show that prejudice is a two way road, think about that before you label us!
Should we have that vote again my cross would go in the exact same box it did on that day, the only difference I would campaign for leave even harder then I did last time!


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> lol Sorry but I'm not wasting my time trawling through 77 pages of waffle -


 I don't see why not . We have to read through yours. :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

leashedForLife said:


> .
> very much agree, Cheeky.
> .
> Satori,
> if U just can't stand the fact that ppl are genuinely concerned about stepping off a cliff into the unknown, rather than tell them to stuff their worries up their ani & get, lost,
> U could simply un-subscribe from the thread, & avoid abrading Ur tender sensibilities.
> 
> .


He didnt write that himself . I doubt if he cares what people think . The article was about the attitude of some of the sanctimonious , smug , self opinionated, holier than thou , leftie , media remoaners and the author has a point .
Their attitude is that if any one dare disagree , they can be as rude and nasty as they like and throw a paddy , rather like Trump !


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> What the..?


 Sounds like a LSD trip.


----------



## KittenKong

Satori:
*Time for the Remoaners to leave the UK*

There are a few things that aggravate me about 'Brexit'.

Well, not a few things, as such, because the aggravation comes from just one source - Remoaners.

Remoaners are those who refuse to accept the will of the majority of those voting, who voted to leave the European Union. Remoaners are bad losers.
---------------------------------------------------------
Oh dear, you sound more "Moaner Leaver" than all of us "Remoaners" put together!

The horrible irony to all this is, those "Remoaners" who want to leave the country may now not be able to thanks to the ending of freedoms we've enjoyed like the right to live and work within the EEA area!

I think it's about time everyone, whichever way one voted, recognises leave only won by a narrow victory. Had the leave victory been 95% against 5% for remain you would have a point.

Had the referendum result been reversed do you think Brexiteers would've sat down and accepted this?

As you can expect I don't want the UK to leave the EU at all, but I am a realist. To get what I want goes against what 17million people voted for. To get what you want goes against the 16million.

Neither will unite the country.

That's why I believe government need to find a compromise, I favour the EEA or Swiss method personally.

The UK will then leave the EU as what the vote was about, yet those that want it can still enjoy much of the advantages being part of the EEA.

Forcing your will onto others only causes resentment and divisions.

If you love your country you'd want what's best for it, that is for it to be united.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The horrible irony to all this is, those "Remoaners" who want to leave the country may now not be able to thanks to the ending of freedoms we've enjoyed like the right to live and work within the EEA area!


Not building your hopes up but the UK High Court case yesterday was about the EEA and was blocked by the judge because the Government have not decided what to do about the EEA yet. The EEA (European Economic Area) is separate from the EU (European Union) as well as it is a separate entity.



> Had the referendum result been reversed do you think Brexiteers would've sat down and accepted this?


 You know my answer to this and it is the same as it was when this question was asked before on this thread.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I made my decision on Referendum day from making a decision of 42+ years of evidence and voted accordingly so to say I was ill informed is rubbish. I made my decision remoaners, get over yourselves.
> 
> EU counter parts yesterday were telling Theresa May in Malta that a trade deal is possible within 2 years with the UK-EU so calm down remoaner.


Why should us "Remoaners" calm down because you say so?

You were the one who bragged about your right to an Irish passport which maintains your right as an EU citizen while telling us who are not so fortunate to shut up as "We won".

Yes, I think we know the government aren't interested in the EEA compromise. They have adopted the Farage method of Brexit because the government have become UKIP...... and most of the Labour Party voted with them!

I despair I really do.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Why should us "Remoaners" calm down because you say so?


See you talk about compromise and then get hostile.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I getting fed up of been told the these brexit people on here to calm down and except the result. I have, I just don't have to like it, and would you stop going on about how great it going to be and stop been so self-righteous, only time will tell if you are right or not and that's years away, it's not going to be as easy as you think.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well it's Saturday and I have things to do so I'd have to cancel what I have to do to put all my effects into putting the White Paper into simple layman's terms so you understand it adding my opinion to it as well. £35 per hour is reasonable seeing as I'd have to cancel what I have planned.


What a cop out lol But no worries, there are highly respected academics all over social media spelling it out clearly for us laymen. And, unlike cowboys like you, they are giving their time for free.

By the way, did you notice this bit about our sovereignty? It seems we had sovereignty all along, we couldnt *be* any more sovereign- it just didn't "feel" like it



















Oh dear ......................................... Can someone explain again, what we've actually voted out for?












kimthecat said:


> I don't see why not . We have to read through yours. :Hilarious


Well actually, no, you don't, Kim. This is a forum, you don't have to read my posts, you can even stick me on ignore & you don't speak to me in real life. My waffle isn't going to drag us all off a cliff.


----------



## noushka05

Don't we already have this ??










*Caroline LucasVerified account*‏@*CarolineLucas* Feb 2

The #*WhitePaper* offers nothing new. Out of single market, out of customs union, no guarantee for EU nationals. A reckless extreme #*Brexit*.

(A Grayling; philosopher & author)
This is not a White Paper, it is a shabby bit of politicking by a shabby group of felons.

Much respect to Ken Clarke. Writing in the Times, he compares Brexit to decision on Iraq war -  "patriotic fury" that will quickly sour, he quite rightly blames hard-right Tories.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> He didnt write that himself . I doubt if he cares what people think . The article was about the attitude of some of the sanctimonious , smug , self opinionated, holier than thou , leftie , media remoaners and the author has a point .
> Their attitude is that if any one dare disagree , they can be as rude and nasty as they like and throw a paddy , rather like Trump !


Lefties like Ken Clarke?


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Well actually, no, you don't, Kim. This is a forum, you don't have to read my posts, you can even stick me on ignore & you don't speak to me in real life. My waffle isn't going to drag us all off a cliff.
> View attachment 299524


You post a load of jokes and photos about brexit and brexiters, funny how you lose your sense of humour when the jokes on you.
The same with you, Noush , you don't haven't to read Stockwells etc posts either, you're not going to change their minds , its done now . What do
you hope to achieve ? i guess you just like banging you head against a wall Try this one -Enjoy !

.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...mmigration-warns-ex-minister?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Don't we already have this ??
> 
> View attachment 299529


On the EU's Terms not the UK's terms.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> You post a load of jokes and photos about brexit and brexiters, funny how you lose your sense of humour when the jokes on you.
> The same with you, Noush , you don't haven't to read Stockwells etc posts either, you're not going to change their minds , its done now . What do
> you hope to achieve ? i guess you just like banging you head against a wall Try this one -Enjoy !
> 
> .


I can take a joke, yours seemed to be more like a personal dig then a Joke to me though.

But I want to read Stockwellcats posts - I enjoy debating, I don't need a wall. I've LOADS more to say on this subject


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I can take a joke, yours seemed to be more like a personal dig then a Joke to me though.
> 
> But I want to read Stockwellcats posts - I enjoy debating, I don't need a wall. I've LOADS more to say on this subject


Well I am not putting up with another two years of remoaners going on and on and on and on and on and on and on because they can't accept what is happening.

You like debating. Good for you


----------



## noushka05

EU farm workers fleeing hostility.

*UK food industry fears Brexit exodus of EU workers *

*Farms, manufacturers and restaurants affected as staff choose not to stay*

https://www.ft.com/content/e22c9d5c-e95c-11e6-893c-082c54a7f539

From rural fields and farms to the finest restaurants in London's West End, the UK food industry is scrambling for staff as the supply of EU workers begins to dwindle.

Even before the UK leaves the EU and starts to restrict the free movement of workers, the weakening of the pound and nagging worries among Europeans about their long-term status in the UK have led to many workers choosing not to remain in the UK.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well I am not putting up with another two years of remoaners going on and on and on and on and on and on and on because they can't accept what is happening.


So you keep saying


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> EU farm workers fleeing hostility.
> 
> *UK food industry fears Brexit exodus of EU workers *
> 
> *Farms, manufacturers and restaurants affected as staff choose not to stay*
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/e22c9d5c-e95c-11e6-893c-082c54a7f539
> 
> From rural fields and farms to the finest restaurants in London's West End, the UK food industry is scrambling for staff as the supply of EU workers begins to dwindle.
> 
> Even before the UK leaves the EU and starts to restrict the free movement of workers, the weakening of the pound and nagging worries among Europeans about their long-term status in the UK have led to many workers choosing not to remain in the UK.


Well they know were to look. Job Centres have queues of people looking for work instead of prioritising none UK citizens for these jobs.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well they know we're to look. Job Centres have queues of people looking for work instead of prioritising none UK citizens for these jobs.


Tell that to the farmers and businesses. I wonder how many of them will lose their farms & businesses?


----------



## Calvine

leashedForLife said:


> *art perfume & poop sugar-cookies, put color-co-ordinated Swarovski crystals on every piece of clothing U own, tattoo the Union Jack across Ur face...
> just don't expect the rest of us to squeal with delight & anticipate Brexit as if it was the pending arrival of the Tooth-Fairy with gold coins for all


Did you ever read anything quite as strange? It is quite mind-boggling but at least it gives one a laugh. Art perfume? Poop sugar-cookies? Swarovski crystals? It's all pretty psychedelic stuff isn't it? This person must have been a hippy at some point in his/her life. Lord, maybe still is.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well I am not putting up with another two years of remoaners going on and on and on and on and on and on and on because they can't accept what is happening.
> 
> You like debating. Good for you


The thing is pro EU supporters will Never accept what is happening.

I'm sure many who voted to leave the EU wouldn't have envisaged what is happening. Leaving the single market wasn't on the agenda, £350m for the NHS etc. etc.

The number of "Remoaners", as you call them, will grow as the Farage form of Brexit begins to take effect.

Not the other way round you're hoping for.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> So you keep saying


I wouldn't like to say what you keep saying as it will take 4691 posts (doubling the threads amount of posts) to put it on here


----------



## leashedForLife

.
Stockwell,
Satori is perfectly capable of self-defense, as see above - U needn't leap to defend a helpless innocent from my vicious verbal assaults. :eyeroll:
.
.
also, i'll point out very specifically that *i* haven't told ANYone to "shut up".
Any PF-uk member who wants to post, may... so long as it's not defamatory, libelous, abusive, threatening, etc, thus violating the ToS policy.
.
all i suggested was that if Satori finds our collective expression of anxiety about the future & severe doubts about the process of Brexit, skipping the updates of our angst would free Satori of suffering acute boredom.

I wouldn't want to think Satori's unalloyed delight in Brexit - any Brexit, including superheated lava, diamond-hard, deep-space vacuum, or desert-island isolation -
might be tinged with the least bit of regret for fellow humans who fear Brexit will have nasty consequences for themselves, their fellow citizens, the future of the UK & the EU, & the unborn who will reap what we've sown, in our generation.
.
to say nothing of the consequences of Brexit for the nonhuman world - & i mean everything, animal, vegetal, mineral, vertebrate or not, air, water, soil; agriculture still depends on healthy soil & clean water, & rumor has it they're not making any more.
What we have is what we've got.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The thing is pro EU supporters will Never accept what is happening.
> 
> I'm sure many who voted to leave the EU wouldn't have envisaged what is happening. Leaving the single market wasn't on the agenda, £350m for the NHS etc. etc.
> 
> The number of "Remoaners", as you call them, will increase over time not the other way round.


Do you know now how those that didn't want to join the EC felt, not listened to for 42+ years and then they get an opportunity to vote and be listened to.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Do you know now how those that didn't want to join the EC felt, not listened to for 42+ years and then they get an opportunity to vote and be listened to.


Blinking heck! Your not suggesting we have to wait 42 years for em to shurrup moaning are you
Oh my poor ears


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Blinking heck! Your not suggesting* we have to wait 42 years for em to shurrup moaning *are you
> Oh my poor ears


I hope not. **


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> I can take a joke, yours seemed to be more like a personal dig then a Joke to me though.


 It wasn't meant to be . Im sorry .


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> It wasn't meant to be . Im sorry .


Aw thank you Kim, no hard feelings on my part & I'm sorry if I was a bit oversensitive x


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Tell that to the farmers and businesses. I wonder how many of them will lose their farms & businesses?


Alot of farmers voted leave (for Brexit).

What's the big problem? The EU leaders said yesterday in Malta a trade deal is possible within the two year negotiation period so we'll still be trading with the EU so farmers etc won't lose out like you keep claiming.

Banks and financial institutions said as well they won't be leaving London to go to Paris or Frankfurt as it would cost them a fortune in translators. "Due to language barriers" was the actual term used.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Well they know were to look. Job Centres have queues of people looking for work instead of prioritising none UK citizens for these jobs.


Judging on what I hear from the farming community, the issue is more finding people willing to reliably work long, physical hours in all weathers for minimum wage and not necessarily guaranteed hours. If more of their workers have been EU, not UK, then would it be unfair to reason that they have found the EU workers the better hire?

I was taking to a vet friend last night, and they are having increased problems already - we don't have anywhere near enough home trained vets and qualified vetinary nurses in the country, and non-UK EU staff from the countries that produce vets trained to similar standards are starting to decline job offers due to Brexit uncertainty. Currently the percentage of vets and qualified vet nurses working in the UK that come from other European countries is even greater than the percentage of non-UK EU born doctors and nurses propping up our NHS. So that's one more area that could get interesting very fast.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Jesthar said:


> Judging on what I hear from the farming community, the issue is more finding people willing to reliably work long, physical hours in all weathers for minimum wage and not necessarily guaranteed hours. If more of their workers have been EU, not UK, then would it be unfair to reason that they have found the EU workers the better hire?
> 
> I was taking to a vet friend last night, and they are having increased problems already - we don't have anywhere near enough home trained vets and qualified vetinary nurses in the country, and non-UK EU staff from the countries that produce vets trained to similar standards are starting to decline job offers due to Brexit uncertainty. Currently the percentage of vets and qualified vet nurses working in the UK that come from other European countries is even greater than the percentage of non-UK EU born doctors and nurses propping up our NHS. So that's one more area that could get interesting very fast.


So basically because we havent trained people or paid a decent wage we have a skills shortage?

So we relied on cheap immigrant labour?

Ive never seen a poor vet or poor farmer

Paying the MINIMUM wage is no incentive


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Judging on what I hear from the farming community, the issue is more finding people willing to reliably work long, physical hours in all weathers for minimum wage and not necessarily guaranteed hours. If more of their workers have been EU, not UK, then would it be unfair to reason that they have found the EU workers the better hire?
> 
> I was taking to a vet friend last night, and they are having increased problems already - we don't have anywhere near enough home trained vets and qualified vetinary nurses in the country, and non-UK EU staff from the countries that produce vets trained to similar standards are starting to decline job offers due to Brexit uncertainty. Currently the percentage of vets and qualified vet nurses working in the UK that come from other European countries is even greater than the percentage of non-UK EU born doctors and nurses propping up our NHS. So that's one more area that could get interesting very fast.


What is often forgotten is the right of UK citizens to live and work in another EU country.

It works both ways.

What amuses me if it wasn't so tragic, many UK citizens who voted leave, including some I know, don't have a problem with UK citizens living in other EU countries!

If Brexiteers want EU citizens out of the UK they must expect "ex pats" to be deported too.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> Alot of farmers voted leave


The actual farmers wanted Brexit on the whole, it was the big landowners that didn't. Lose all that skimmed of EU money that pays for they yachts and private planes


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> If Brexiteers want EU citizens out of the UK they must expect "ex pats" to be deported too.


As far as I can gather, there aren't many who voted out that don't welcome EU workers or tourists. We did before joining and will after leaving. No problem there at all


----------



## kimthecat

I think in the future there will be less jobs available generally . 
Machines are replacing people , many more self service tills in shops . My local bank , there's no counter with people ! , you have to do everything at the computerised machines . I watched Countryfile a few weeks ago and framer has invented a field machine that does the work of 10 people ,
etc .

I've met vets from different countries over the years , Australia , SA , Poland , Germany and I'm sure once this uncertainy is sorted , so to speak , I'm sure they will want to come back to work here .


----------



## rona

http://www.smallholder.co.uk/news/15069834.Lords_urged_to_consider_Brexit_risk_to_farming/
"Tim Breitmeyer, CLA deputy president, said: "Brexit can bring a range of new opportunities for farming including building exports for our products alongside continues access to existing markets and establishing a world leading agricultural policy that drives growth and productivity."

http://www.smallholder.co.uk/news/1...s_to_improve_farm_animal_welfare_post_Brexit/

"A commons debate about farm animal welfare post-Brexit saw the Government confirm leaving the EU offers opportunities to improve welfare standards.
During the debate held on Tuesday, January 24, the Government made explicit and detailed comments about how they saw post-Brexit farming evolve."
"Now the Government has confirmed that Brexit provided an opportunity to improve the slaughter of pigs, deliver higher welfare incentives to farmers in the new support system and protect UK farmers from the import of lower welfare, lower cost meat."


----------



## leashedForLife

.
a book i'm currently reading explains the 12 processes which are re-making our post-industrial, tech world.
'The Inevitable' discusses mechanization even of service jobs [nurse, waitron, Dx of illness, etc], as well as many other rapidly-changing processes such as the so-called "sharing economy".
The sharing system is great for Uber & other COMPANIES, not so great for the ppl they employ -
as their 'contractors', non-union folks, put up all the equipment & provide needed support [they own the car, pay insurance, provide maintenance, etc].
The COMPANY pays minimally & rakes in profits; they don't even deduct taxes, which leaves U with a huge bill come tax-day.
Independent contractors enjoy zero benefits; all the advantages are for the company, NOT the workers.
.
.
re agriculture, restaurants, hotels, etc:
Undocumented migrants have always been the solid base of U-S Ag, picking fruit, harvesting veg, & nowadays, milking cows, slaughtering stock, plucking chickens, etc.
.
the southeast state of Georgia recently cracked down on 'migrant workers'.
It co$t them $140-million of retail value produce - 40% of the crops rotted in the fields.
Ironically, the then-Gov of GA is now Trumpster's nominee for Sec of Ag -
to oversee the oncoming disaster of the entire nation, trying to harvest crops WITHOUT their migrant work-force.
.
it's estimated that this will cost the U-S economy *billions* of dollars in lost revenue, spoiled food, & more -
& of course, FOOD PRICES & commodity trading will soar as a direct result of scarcity. The poor & elderly will be very hard-hit; already-expensive fruit & veg will be priced out of reach for all but the upper middle-class & wealthy [Madame Gaza prediction, there; not the Trumpster admin, my very personal opinion].
.
.
I would expect that the UK will be similarly affected; fresh fruit, fresh veg, milk & cheese prices, etc, will go up as produce is lost to spoilage & dairy producers are forced to raise wages.
UK folks won't bust their butts working 12 to 16-hr days for minimal wages, in heat, humidity, cold, rain, ankle-deep in cow-sh!t, with chilblained hands from washing udders in winter milking sheds.
.
A hungry time is coming.

.
.
.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Alot of farmers voted leave (for Brexit).
> 
> What's the big problem? The EU leaders said yesterday in Malta a trade deal is possible within the two year negotiation period so we'll still be trading with the EU so farmers etc won't lose out like you keep claiming.
> 
> Banks and financial institutions said as well they won't be leaving London to go to Paris or Frankfurt as it would cost them a fortune in translators. "Due to language barriers" was the actual term used.


They did. But if they're as misinformed as this farmer, is there any wonder. I mean, just look at this http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...bill-white-paper-european-union-a7558886.html

*Brexit is not the high point of democracy - it's the greatest fraud ever perpetrated in British politics *
An irate local farmer told me he voted to leave as a protest against EU bureaucracy that delayed payments of his subsidies. He thought Defra was an EU department. He didn't realise it was The Department for Rural Affairs and that the EU had fined our governmental department for its incompetent administration of subsidies

Brexit has created massive problems - I'm only amazed you can't see that.

Here's just one.

80% of UK dairy goes to the EU, tariff free..........












kimthecat said:


> I think in the future there will be less jobs available generally .
> Machines are replacing people , many more self service tills in shops . My local bank , there's no counter with people ! , you have to do everything at the computerised machines . I watched Countryfile a few weeks ago and framer has invented a field machine that does the work of 10 people ,
> etc .
> 
> I've met vets from different countries over the years , Australia , SA , Poland , Germany and I'm sure once this uncertainy is sorted , so to speak , I'm sure they will want to come back to work here .


Brexit is already affecting vet recruitment. Really worrying, not least, for the key role EU vets play in monitoring livestock health.

I don't know whether you've seen this by C4? https://www.channel4.com/news/brexit-affecting-vet-recruitment



rona said:


> The actual farmers wanted Brexit on the whole, it was the big landowners that didn't. Lose all that skimmed of EU money that pays for they yachts and private planes





rona said:


> http://www.smallholder.co.uk/news/15069834.Lords_urged_to_consider_Brexit_risk_to_farming/
> "Tim Breitmeyer, CLA deputy president, said: "Brexit can bring a range of new opportunities for farming including building exports for our products alongside continues access to existing markets and establishing a world leading agricultural policy that drives growth and productivity."
> 
> http://www.smallholder.co.uk/news/1...s_to_improve_farm_animal_welfare_post_Brexit/
> 
> "A commons debate about farm animal welfare post-Brexit saw the Government confirm leaving the EU offers opportunities to improve welfare standards.
> During the debate held on Tuesday, January 24, the Government made explicit and detailed comments about how they saw post-Brexit farming evolve."
> "Now the Government has confirmed that Brexit provided an opportunity to improve the slaughter of pigs, deliver higher welfare incentives to farmers in the new support system and protect UK farmers from the import of lower welfare, lower cost meat."


Useless Eustice has suggested grouse moors could loose their subsidies so that would be fantastic news. And I hope brexit means we'll ban live exports now too. But I fear May, desperate for trade deals, caves to US demands. If so, there will be no improvement in welfare for animals - it will be a race to the bottom, likewise for our food safety standards.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-deal-gm-food-eu-rules?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 
*Is chlorinated chicken about to hit our shelves after new US trade deal? 
Consumers could be exposed to American farming practices banned by the EU*

_Those of us who want to eat safe, healthy food awoke to a nightmare on Tuesday, a __chilling interview on Radio 4's Today programme__. Bob Young, chief economist at the American Farm Bureau Federation, made it crystal clear that any US trade deal struck by Theresa May would be contingent on the UK public stomaching imports of US foods that it has previously rejected: beef from cattle implanted with growth hormones, chlorine-washed chicken, and unlabelled genetically modified (GM) foods._

Wonder how many pig farmers voted brexit? As if pigs in intensive units don't suffer enough already.

https://www.farminguk.com/news/US-p...-seeking-closer-trade-ties-with-UK_45535.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> 80% of UK dairy goes to the EU, tariff free..........


I find this comment hard to believe to be honest having worked on a dairy farm in my past. The milk is taken straight to shops from dairy farms like Asda, Tescos, Sainsbury's etc once produced on dairy farms daily. Dairy farms in the UK only supply UK supermarkets and shops, the milk would be off if it went abroad. They don't label milk and dairy products produced in the UK for EU shops. That 80% mentioned would end up on UK shops shelves not in other European countries. This is why I wonder how truthful this news article is?

You are trying to tell me there are no dairy cows in other European countries except the UK? I find that hard to believe.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> As far as I can gather, there aren't many who voted out that don't welcome EU workers or tourists. We did before joining and will after leaving. No problem there at all


How is it, "no problem at all". You and I, for that matter, cannot possibly know what's going to happen.

Tourists will of course be welcome. Potential employees or those who want to emigrate to the UK and vice versa probably won't be.

I'd imagine with May's anti immigration stance many may now not choose to visit the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here's a bit of good news for a change:

Quote 1:

*Brexit boost for London as Bank of America Merrill Lynch eyes new City base*

Wall street giant Bank of America Merrill Lynch has kicked off its search for a vast new London office, in what will be seen as a major vote of confidence in the capital as the UK prepares for Brexit.

The bank has hired property agents CBRE to identify sites in London as big as 500,000 square feet - similar in size to its current premises, which serve as the bank's European headquarters.

The lease on the bank's plush site near St Paul's Cathedral expires in five years' time. BAML has to decide by 2020 whether to roll over the lease or move elsewhere. It employs some 1,200 bankers and 600 back office staff in London.

The revelation that America's second-largest bank is looking to cement its UK presence will boost confidence that London can remain Europe's financial hub after the UK leaves the European Union and attract multinationals from other industries.

------------
Quote 2:

In the meantime, confidence is growing that the UK will remain an attractive hub for companies across a range of industries after it leaves the EU, particularly technology firms.

A flurry of big companies have announced plans to expand their presence in the capital.

Technology giant Apple, for example, last year unveiled plans to lease 500,000 sq ft at the Battersea Power Station development to create a new London headquarters with enough space to house 3,000 staff.

Fellow US companies Google and Facebook have also announced plans recently to expand their presence in the UK capital. Google is building a new 10-storey, 650,000 sq ft complex in the capital. Meanwhile, Facebook is planning to switch to new offices in central London's Fitzrovia district, a move that will see the social networking giant hire an extra 500 employees in the UK, increasing its headcount by 50pc to more than 1,500.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...eyes-new-city/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> I find this comment hard to believe to be honest having worked on a dairy farm in my past. The milk is taken straight to shops from dairy farms like Asda, Tescos, Sainsbury's etc once produced on dairy farms daily. Dairy farms in the UK only supply UK supermarkets and shops, the milk would be off if it went abroad. They don't label milk and dairy products produced in the UK for EU shops. That 80% mentioned would end up on UK shops shelves not in other European countries. *This is why I wonder how truthful this news article is?*
> 
> You are trying to tell me there are no dairy cows in other European countries except the UK? I find that hard to believe.


My info came directly from >>> experts  From the trade association for the UK dairy industry @stockwellcat, so I'm pretty sure they know what they're talking about, don't you agree? . http://www.dairyuk.org/media-area/p...k-statement-on-prime-minister-s-brexit-speech

No, I'm not trying to tell you there are no dairy cows in other European Countries except the UK lol. I'm trying to make you aware of the facts in the hope you will face the reality that Brexit is going to be a total nightmare.


----------



## kimthecat

I think by Dairy they mean products like cheese and butter.

The supermarkets holding the dairy farmers to ransom forced some to give up farming in 2015 . 
.

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-falling-milk-prices-warns-shropshire-farmer/
The warning has been issued by Shropshire farmer Andrew Bebb, who described the current prices paid by dairies as "not sustainable".

He said farmers were selling their cows and leaving the industry due to being forced to operate at a continued loss.

It comes as the price of milk fell to just 22p a pint - its lowest level in seven years.

Dairy giant First Milk yesterday delayed its next payment to suppliers by two weeks as it attempts to put its finances in order.

The National Farmers Union has also revealed figures which show 60 dairy farmers across Britain stopped producing milk in December alone.

Mr Bebb, who farms on land at Hanwood, near Shrewsbury, said: "The current price is not sustainable. It will inevitably mean farmers going out of business sooner rather than later.

Read more at http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-warns-shropshire-farmer/#Rp53JEkdr5FFFCBW.99


----------



## kimthecat

http://www.ahdb.org.uk/documents/BrexitAnalysis-Alternatives-08july2016.pdf

This is a PDF , on the second page there's a diagram that shows the UK imports 98% Dairy while we export 72% to the EU


----------



## noushka05

*NHS Million* ‏@*NHSMillion* 14h14 hours ago

And so it begins...........https://twitter.com/UKinNewYork/status/827599385211047936…









0:54
*
British Consulate NY* @UKinNewYork

[email protected]*DHgovuk* Secretary @*Jeremy_Hunt* is in NY with @*AntoniaRomeoUK* to discuss the close links between the UK & US health sectors


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Brexit is already affecting vet recruitment. Really worrying, not least, for the key role EU vets play in monitoring livestock health.
> 
> I don't know whether you've seen this by C4? https://www.channel4.com/news/brexit-affecting-vet-recruitment


 Unfortunately it doesn't have subtitles.  so I took a look at the BVA website

https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaign...es-impact-of-brexit-on-veterinary-profession/

there last statement is here

https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaign.../bva-responds-prime-minister-s-brexit-speech/


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Unfortunately it doesn't have subtitles.  so I took a look at the BVA website
> 
> https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaign...es-impact-of-brexit-on-veterinary-profession/
> 
> there last statement is here
> 
> https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaign.../bva-responds-prime-minister-s-brexit-speech/


Forgive me for not trusting a word Theresa May says. Only on Wednesday did she promised us that our NHS was "not for sale". Meanwhile over in the USA....


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Potential employees or those who want to emigrate to the UK and vice versa probably won't be.


I honestly can't see a problem with this once the grown ups start talking instead of the papers and those with agendas


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I honestly can't see a problem with this once the grown ups start talking instead of the papers and those with agendas


Don't you ever consider this government of extremists might be the ones with the agenda, Rona?


----------



## Honeys mum

Confidence in the economy hits 18 month high - Westmonster


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> I think by Dairy they mean products like cheese and butter.
> 
> The supermarkets holding the dairy farmers to ransom forced some to give up farming in 2015 .
> .
> 
> http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-falling-milk-prices-warns-shropshire-farmer/
> The warning has been issued by Shropshire farmer Andrew Bebb, who described the current prices paid by dairies as "not sustainable".
> 
> He said farmers were selling their cows and leaving the industry due to being forced to operate at a continued loss.
> 
> It comes as the price of milk fell to just 22p a pint - its lowest level in seven years.
> 
> Dairy giant First Milk yesterday delayed its next payment to suppliers by two weeks as it attempts to put its finances in order.
> 
> The National Farmers Union has also revealed figures which show 60 dairy farmers across Britain stopped producing milk in December alone.
> 
> Mr Bebb, who farms on land at Hanwood, near Shrewsbury, said: "The current price is not sustainable. It will inevitably mean farmers going out of business sooner rather than later.
> 
> Read more at http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-warns-shropshire-farmer/#Rp53JEkdr5FFFCBW.99


----------



## cheekyscrip

So.much for #take control.

To give it to Trump?

I think your children's children will curse you for future you chose for them.









I am sure that by 2020 they would get what they want.

If you leave EU, you embrace US. US as it is.

Do you really think 52% voted for THAT!!!!
But this is what you get.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Confidence in the economy hits 18 month high - Westmonster


Westmonster? Dear god. The mail, sun & express are the dregs but Westmonster is the dregs of the dregs! This is billionaire Arron Banks propaganda rag.

Little wonder people are so misinformed.

DeSmog did a good article on this >

https://www.desmog.uk/2017/01/19/br...breitbart-drudge-report-inspired-news-site-uk

On the eve of Donald Trump's inauguration, a new website is being launched in Britain inspired by the rise of far right, climate science denying American sites the Drudge Report and Breitbart.

As the BBC's new "fake news" watch team reported, the website, Westmonster, is being launched by UKIP's millionaire backer Arron Banks who funded the Leave.EU campaign for Brexit and Nigel Farage's former press adviser, the 27-year-old Michael Heaver.

Westmonster describes itself as "Pro-Brexit, pro-Farage, pro-Trump. Anti-establishment, anti-open borders, anti-corporatism."

Breitbart, the Drudge Report, Farage, and Trump are all well known for promoting climate change misinformation and denying the science which shows that the burning of fossil fuels is the main cause behind rising global temperatures.

And as was seen in June, the Brexit campaign was led primarily by those individuals and organizations who are against taking action to tackle climate change in the UK.

Most recently, DeSmog UK revealed how a new 'special relationship' is emerging between climate science deniers across the Atlantic with links back to both the incoming Trump administration and Theresa May's cabinet.

(& so on)


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> So.much for #take control.
> 
> To give it to Trump?
> 
> I think your children's children will curse you for future you chose for them.
> View attachment 299631
> 
> 
> I am sure that by 2020 they would get what they want.
> 
> If you leave EU, you embrace US. US as it is.
> 
> Do you really think 52% voted for THAT!!!!
> But this is what you get.


Nobody can say we weren't warned this was the likely outcome of brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Nobody can say we weren't warned this was the likely outcome of brexit.


I think that leaving EU would make us dependent on US was glaringly obvious.
Sadly maybe some give not get the full meaning of consequences.
For me it is hard to understand how someone might support Brexit while be against Trump's vision of America.
It is exactly the same mentality.

The same rhetoric and the same end game.

Thinking that UK can tell Trump, or TM " told" and it would have profound effect is risible.

IN EU we were the big fish...maybe not big enough. Merkel is very much responsible for fuelling Brexit .
But to think US would treat us on " special terms"...like a pet poodle perhaps?

And there is no time machine to turn the clocks fifty years back.

Ordinary Americans do not have better quality of live, neither are safer than British in EU.

We are basically trading EU for "Little America".

I like USa, been there, but decided not to live there.

It is very good, but if you or any of yours get seriously or chronically ill then not so good.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> For me it is hard to understand how someone might support Brexit while be against Trump's vision of America.
> It is exactly the same mentality.
> 
> The same rhetoric and the same end game.


This where I think you are going wrong with your vision of things


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> An irate local farmer told me he voted to leave as a protest against EU bureaucracy that delayed payments of his subsidies. He thought Defra was an EU department. He didn't realise it was The Department for Rural Affairs and that the EU had fined our governmental department for its incompetent


This was the whole problem about the leave campaign and how people were so misinformed, blaming the EU and immigration for everything.

I wonder who'll they'll blame once Brexit hits them hard?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I'm trying to make you aware of the facts in the hope you will face the reality that Brexit is going to be a total nightmare.


Well thank you for making me aware that you are trying your hardest to change my mind. But I need to make you aware of something. I am not going to change my mind and would still vote leave if there was another Referendum tomorrow, next year, 5 years time, 10 years time, 20 years time, 30 years time so on and so forth. 

So I am afraid you are barking up the wrong tree as you won't be able to scare me into changing my mind.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> This was the whole problem about the leave campaign and how people were so misinformed, blaming the EU and immigration for everything.
> 
> I wonder who'll they'll blame once Brexit hits them hard?


Those immigrants who are still in UK perhaps?
Everyone not lucky enough to be born British?
Or malevolent EU who takes revenge and while UK imposes tariffs they dare to do the same?
Or dare to treat expats the way UK treats anyone fromEU?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Those immigrants who are still in UK perhaps?
> Everyone not lucky enough to be born British?
> Or malevolent EU who takes revenge and while UK imposes tariffs they dare to do the same?
> Or dare to treat expats the way UK treats anyone fromEU?


Exactly! EU citizens have as much right to live and work in the UK as UK citizens have within the EU.


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


>


Not sure the cross of St Andrew is appropriate on that flag, given that they want to stay in the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Not sure the cross of St Andrew is appropriate on that flag, given that they want to stay in the EU.


But they have no choice.

The Supreme Court ruled that the devolved assemblies do not need to be consulted over the Brexit negotiations. There won't be any separate deals for Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Any Referendums have to be approved by the Government and they have already told Scotland no because they had one in 2014.

Scotland's amendments to try and block article 50 were rejected as well by a vote in Parliament last week before the article 50 vote took place.


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> Not sure the cross of St Andrew is appropriate on that flag, given that they want to stay in the EU.


But it is the Union Jack flag , known as the british Flag. The british people voted to come out of the E.U.



stockwellcat said:


> But they have no choice.
> 
> The Supreme Court ruled that the devolved assemblies do not need to consulted over the Brexit negotiations. There won't be any separate deals for Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.


Of which I agree with.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Well thank you for making me aware that you are trying your hardest to change my mind. But I need to make you aware of something. I am not going to change my mind and would still vote leave if there was another Referendum tomorrow, next year, 5 years time, 10 years time, 20 years time, 30 years time so on and so forth.
> 
> So I am afraid you are barking up the wrong tree as you won't be able to scare me into changing my mind.


Just hope you don't choke on your own words


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Just hope you don't choke on your own words


Why would I do that


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Why would I do that


Because I think you will.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Because I think you will.


Nope. Not me.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> But it is the Union Jack flag , known as the british Flag. The british people voted to come out of the EU.


I don't think most of the people in Gibraltar, NI and Scotland would agree with you!


----------



## KittenKong

Long live the EU!


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...trump-us-angela-merkel-francois-a7561106.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 299694
> 
> 
> Long live the EU!


I can't wait for the massive street parties like these below:
























I will be flying the Union Jack with pride on UK Independence Day.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> This was the whole problem about the leave campaign and how people were so misinformed, blaming the EU and immigration for everything.
> 
> I wonder who'll they'll blame once Brexit hits them hard?


But on the otherhand, just suppose everything goes swimmingly wonderful, who will the remoaners blame then?
Fact, none of us know for sure what the outcome will be so lets save this conversation shall we! Or maybe some people just prefer to look on the black side!


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> I don't think most of the people in Gibraltar, NI and Scotland would agree with you!


That's fine, as it's been said many times before, we are all entitled to our own opinion. Which as far as I'm concerned works both ways.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


> But it is the Union Jack flag , known as the british Flag. The british people voted to come out of the E.U.
> 
> Of which I agree with.


You can't say that, Scotland as a country vote out, so the flag is now divided.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> But they have no choice.
> 
> The Supreme Court ruled that the devolved assemblies do not need to be consulted over the Brexit negotiations. There won't be any separate deals for Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
> 
> Any Referendums have to be approved by the Government and they have already told Scotland no because they had one in 2014.
> 
> Scotland's amendments to try and block article 50 were rejected as well by a vote in Parliament last week before the article 50 vote took place.





Honeys mum said:


> But it is the Union Jack flag , known as the british Flag. The british people voted to come out of the E.U.
> 
> Of which I agree with.


They do indeed have no choice.

We are leaving the EU in part because our voice in the European Parliament could be outvoted by the other nations, and some felt that was undemocratic.

But when the same happens to the Scots in Westminster they just have to suck it up.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> You can't say that, Scotland as a country vote out, so the flag is now divided.


Scotland is in for a shock a very big shock. The Supreme Court said that the devolved assemblies don't get a say in the Brexit negotiations. So the union jack stays exactly as it is. Sturgeon can cry like a cat over spilt milk but she isn't getting her way. The Law says so.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> But when the same happens to the Scots in Westminster they just have to suck it up.


But they had already voted to stay in the union, knowing full well that this referendum was on the cards


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> But when the same happens to the Scots in Westminster they just have to suck it up.


Theresa May said she will listen to the devolved assemblies and that she is doing. She has made it clear last week what the Supreme Court said and has said before there will be no second Scottish Referendum to leave the UK. Also the SNP get to take part in all the debates in Parliament on Brexit and many more votes ahead.

The SNP also got there bill voted on to block the article 50 bill last week but it got out voted. The SNP also got to vote on the article 50 bill as well.


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> We are leaving the EU in part because our voice in the European Parliament could be outvoted by the other nations, and some felt that was undemocratic.
> 
> But when the same happens to the Scots in Westminster they just have to suck it up.


Scottish referendum: Scotland votes 'No' to independence - BBC News

As rona has already said, the scots voted no to independence.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> But they had already voted to stay in the union, knowing full well that this referendum was on the cards


That's not quite true. I don't recall Cameron mentioning his in/out EU referendum in 2014, only in 2015 during the general election campaign.

The Tories weren't expected to win that election outright. Had they not done so it's unlikely to referendum would have gone ahead.

The SNP manifesto did mention the possibility of another independence referendum in the event of Scotland being taken out of the EU against its wishes.

And the very best of luck to them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> That's not quite true. I don't recall Cameron mentioning his in/out EU referendum in 2014, only in 2015 during the general election campaign.
> 
> The Tories weren't expected to win that election outright. Had they not done so it's unlikely to referendum would have gone ahead.
> 
> The SNP manifesto did mention the possibility of another independence referendum in the event of Scotland being taken out of the EU against its wishes.
> 
> And the very best of luck to them.


They did know about the EU referendum in 2014 it was mentioned plenty of times by Cameron and company. The SNP took part in the passing of the bill through Parliament (Every MP in the UK did) and into legislation before it got royal assent.


----------



## rona

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282
*David Cameron promises in/out referendum on EU*

23 January 2013

He did talk about it rather a lot for quite a few years before the election campaign. I can't see how anyone could have missed it


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The SNP manifesto did mention the possibility of another independence referendum in the event of Scotland being taken out of the EU against its wishes.


Also can I make a point. If Scotland was to have a second Referendum there vote will also take them out of the EU as they alone aren't members of the EU, the UK is, even after the UK leaves the EU, leaving Scotland with a UK hard border, Northern Ireland hard border and EU hard border. So breaking away from the UK means Scotland also break away from the EU as they aren't EU members as such.


----------



## stuaz

stockwellcat said:


> Also can I make a point. If Scotland was to have a second Referendum there vote will also take them out of the EU as they alone aren't members of the EU, the UK is. Even after the UK leaves the EU, leaving Scotland with a UK hard border, Northern Ireland hard border and EU hard border. So breaking away from the UK means Scotland also break away from the EU as they aren't EU members as such.


And then they have to be voted back into the EU. Good luck with that with the likes of Spain.

I am sure also that the EU members won't be keen to invite another Greece into the fold.


----------



## stockwellcat.

stuaz said:


> And then they have to be voted back into the EU. Good luck with that with the likes of Spain.
> 
> I am sure also that the EU members won't be keen to invite another Greece into the fold.


They can't accuse the UK of forcing them out of the EU then, they voted to leave the UK and as a consequence they also leave the EU. 

They have already been told they will be at the back of the queue to be considered for membership of the EU as well, behind Turkey EU Leaders said.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> They can't accuse the UK of forcing them out of the EU then, they voted to leave the UK and as a consequence they also leave the EU.
> 
> They have already been told they will be at the back of the queue to get membership of the EU as well, behind Turkey EU Leaders said.


Remain x


----------



## 1290423

Are the scottish higher earners now paying a higher rate of income tax or did I dream that?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Are the scottish higher earners now paying a higher rate of income tax or did I dream that?


No of course they aren't. They still live off UK subsides and have most of there trade from the UK (80%).


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Also can I make a point. If Scotland was to have a second Referendum there vote will also take them out of the EU as they alone aren't members of the EU, the UK is. Even after the UK leaves the EU, leaving Scotland with a UK hard border, Northern Ireland hard border and EU hard border. So breaking away from the UK means Scotland also break away from the EU as they aren't EU members as such.


Lol I foresee a major rise in the share price of brick manufacturing companies we could be building a heck of a lot of walls


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> No of course they aren't. They still live off UK subsides and have most of there trade from the UK (80%).


Something I read last week made me think the scottish qont be happy about that, they conteracted whatever it was by reminding us that the scottish did however have free prescriptions. That used to annoy the hell out of ne.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Something I read last week made me think the scottish qont be happy about that, they conteracted whatever it was by reminding us that the scottish did however have free prescriptions. That used to annoy the hell out of ne.


Well if they did have a second Referendum they'd be stuffed if they voted to leave the UK as they'd be leaving the EU to.

Also they'd have to get health insurance as they wouldn't be part of the UK or EU and therefore wouldn't be entitled to free NHS treatment


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Well if they did have a second Referendum they'd be stuffed if they voted to leave the UK as they'd be leaving the EU to.
> 
> Also they'd have to get health insurance as they wouldn't be part of the UK or EU and therefore wouldn't be entitled to free NHS treatment


telegraph.co.uk. I just checked it, sure something has been introducted, threshold for middle earners cut I think?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


> Scottish referendum: Scotland votes 'No' to independence - BBC News
> 
> As rona has already said, *the scots voted no* to independence.


Ask them again and I bet they'll say yes.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> telegraph.co.uk. I just checked it, sure something has been introducted, threshold for middle earners cut I think?


I don't really pay much attention to what is going on in Scotland. I tend to switch the TV channel over now if I see Sturgeon on the news.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Ask them again and I bet they'll say yes.


Well they are welcome to but do you know if they do they leave the EU as well as the UK as they alone aren't a member of the EU the UK is as a whole. EU leaders have also warned them if they vote for Independence from the UK they will be at the back of the queue of countries wanting to join the EU (behind Turkey).


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


>


I guess that's at me.
You tell me then, were is Scotland on the EU members list?

Austria, 
Belgium, 
Bulgaria, 
Croatia, 
Republic of Cyprus, 
Czech Republic, 
Denmark, 
Estonia, 
Finland, 
France, 
Germany, 
Greece, 
Hungary, 
Ireland, 
Italy, 
Latvia, 
Lithuania, 
Luxembourg, 
Malta, 
Netherlands, 
Poland, 
Portugal, 
Romania, 
Slovakia, 
Slovenia, 
Spain, 
Sweden
United Kingdom

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries_en


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Ask them again and I bet they'll say yes.


I don't think so......their finances are fairly precarious at the moment


----------



## rona

Just an interesting side note about EU spending and BBC bias 
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/76...dcasting-filming-David-Davies-Get-Britain-Out


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Scots economy teetering on brink of 'economic and employment crisis', union leader warns*

2nd February 2017

Union leaders have warned that the Scottish economy is teetering on the brink of an economic and employment crisis.

The GMB union said that Scotland battling a predicted 160,000 job losses, manufacturing decline and the impact of austerity policies.

Gary Smith, the GMB's Scotland Secretary, told the Commons Scottish Affairs Committee that Westminster and Holyrood were both "failing Scotland".

He said that the Scottish economy was "dangerously weak".

"It is no exaggeration to say we are teetering on the brink of an economic and employment crisis," he told MPs.

He said that Scotland had lost nearly 40,000 manufacturing jobs since 2007, just before the start of the financial crisis.

Since 2010, and the introduction of then chancellor George Osborne's austerity policies, more 40,000 local government jobs have gone, he added.

He also quoted a recent warning by the Fraser of Allander Institute of a further 80,000 job cuts.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...nomic_and_employment_crisis__39_/?ref=rl&lp=2


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> I don't really pay much attention to what is going on in Scotland. I tend to switch the TV channel over now if I see Sturgeon on the news.


So would most intelligent people. 
The return of the crankies,


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> Ask them again and I bet they'll say yes.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Tories to block Nicola Sturgeon's bid for second independence referendum*










3rd February 2017

THE UK Government will not grant the Scottish Government the power to hold a second independence referendum before 2020, a senior Cabinet minister has suggested.

Sir Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary, told The Herald that Nicola Sturgeon did not have a mandate to stage another vote on Scotland's future and Westminster had no intention of helping her hold one.

In an exclusive interview ahead of his visit today to a Midlothian firm that supplies electro-hydraulic systems to warships and submarines, Sir Michael was asked if the UK Government would facilitate another independence vote in this parliament. He replied: "No, forget it."

"The respect agenda is two-way. She [the First Minister] is constantly asking us to respect the SNP Government but she has to respect the decision of Scotland to stay inside the UK in 2014 and the decision of the UK to leave the EU. Respect works two ways."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...eon_s_bid_for_second_independence_referendum/


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> *Scots economy teetering on brink of 'economic and employment crisis', union leader warns*
> 
> Union leaders have warned that the Scottish economy is teetering on the brink of an economic and employment crisis.


Also this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/09/cost-decommissioning-north-sea-wipe-future-tax-revenues/
"Oil companies are forecast to spend £53 billion from this year winding down their North Sea
operations"

"Ms Sturgeon promised Scots a second oil boom if they voted for independence in 2014 but the price has since collapsed and Scotland's geographical share of the revenues tumbled to only £60 million last year.

Without oil revenues, Scottish Government figures published last year gave Scotland a £15 billion public spending deficit, proportionately more than twice the size of the UK's and higher even than Greece's"


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> That's fine, as it's been said many times before, we are all entitled to our own opinion. Which as far as I'm concerned itworks both ways.


You forgot london


----------



## 1290423

DT said:


> You forgot london


Opps sorry honeysmum xx quoted the wrong person x


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> You forgot london


London doesn't want Independence from the rest of the UK it's Siddiq Khan that does. But there's a petition to get rid of him as London Mayor. He has as much power as Joe Blogs on the street. The Government aren't even entertaining his idea of London Independence. 

I won't be bothered anyway in May 2017 as I won't be in London to be concerned about it. I am moving out of the big city for a more relaxed life style in the countryside.


----------



## cheekyscrip

2020 would be most interesting year ...

@cheeky is thinking hard how to get to Canada by then...or at least aNew Zealand...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> 2020 would be most interesting year ...
> 
> @cheeky is thinking hard how to get to Canada by then...or at least aNew Zealand...


Do what the migrants done, leave all your ID at home and see how far you get. Hitch a ride on fishing vessels etc


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Do what the migrants done, leave all your ID at home and see how far you get. Hitch a ride on fishing vessels etc


Or we could have a whip round for a rubber dinghy . And I'll chip in with a rubber tyre and a pair of armbands to keep you safe


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> London doesn't want Independence from the rest of the UK


What a pity I'd love to see the back of it and let the rest of the country get on without it.


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> What a pity I'd love to see the back of it and let the rest of the country get on without it.


Perhaps qe could build a wall round it


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Perhaps qe could build a wall round it


----------



## kimthecat

More people live in London than Scotland and Wales combined ! 44% are black and of minority ethnic origin.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31082941

Seems odd a remoaner wants to see the back of it when many are descendents of migrants and refugees.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282
> *David Cameron promises in/out referendum on EU*
> 
> 23 January 2013
> 
> He did talk about it rather a lot for quite a few years before the election campaign. I can't see how anyone could have missed it


This was on the condition of an outright Tory victory.

I don't personally recall Cameron mentioning this pre 2015 so there's a good chance others didn't hear this either.

Nevertheless, having overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU it's down to the people of Scotland to decide whether they consider staying part of the UK is more important than the EU.

If they vote in favour of remaining in the UK after all this then so be it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Nevertheless, having overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU it's down to the people of Scotland to decide whether they consider staying part of the UK is more important than the EU.
> 
> If they vote in favour of remaining in the UK after all this then so be it.


They don't get a say.
The UK government have to give Scotland the power to have a referendum and it isn't going to happen. 2 days ago the UK Government said no until after 2020. It was in the Scottish Herald newspaper.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Also this
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/09/cost-decommissioning-north-sea-wipe-future-tax-revenues/
> "Oil companies are forecast to spend £53 billion from this year winding down their North Sea
> operations"
> 
> "Ms Sturgeon promised Scots a second oil boom if they voted for independence in 2014 but the price has since collapsed and Scotland's geographical share of the revenues tumbled to only £60 million last year.
> 
> Without oil revenues, Scottish Government figures published last year gave Scotland a £15 billion public spending deficit, proportionately more than twice the size of the UK's and higher even than Greece's"


I repeat- let the Scottish people decide whether they want to remain in the UK or not after the EU referendum.

I was told I don't speak for the people of Scotland living some 60 miles from the border.

Fair comment.

So why do people 350+ miles away believe they can dictate to the people of Scotland?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I repeat- let the Scottish people decide whether they want to remain in the UK or not after the EU referendum.
> 
> I was told I don't speak for the people of Scotland living some 60 miles from the border.
> 
> Fair comment.
> 
> So why do people 350+ miles away believe they can dictate to the people of Scotland?


Have a read here, the Scottish Government don't have the power to call a referendum they must seek permission from the UK Government before hand and the UK Government have already said no until after 2020 and said they will block any attempt by Sturgeon.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...eon_s_bid_for_second_independence_referendum/

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-02/...rendum-defence-minister-michael-fallon-warns/


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> I repeat- let the Scottish people decide whether they want to remain in the UK or not after the EU referendum.
> 
> I was told I don't speak for the people of Scotland living some 60 miles from the border.
> 
> Fair comment.
> 
> *So why do people 350+ miles away believe they can dictate to the people of Scotland?*


Probably the same reason the same people dictate to the people of Cornwall, or Wales, or North East or North West, or Midlands, Home Counties, etc. Its called central Government.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Probably the same reason the same people dictate to the people of Cornwall, or Wales, or North East or North West, or Midlands, Home Counties, etc. Its called central Government.


Central government control England, not Scotland, Wales nor NI.

The Tories believe they can of course but these areas should be respected as should the people in these countries.

They want to preserve the UK. Refusing them a say will only fuel a possible break up.

Nicola Sturgeon for example has given May a chance to negotiate a compromise, ie: By allowing Scotland to remain in the single market if England withdraws as we now know it will do. Not surprisingly May isn't interested and expects Scotland to bear the brunt of the damaging hard Brexit her and Farage want.

Yes, Wales voted for Brexit, fair do's so let them get on with it.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Central government control England, *not Scotland, Wales nor NI*.
> 
> The Tories believe they can of course but these areas should be respected as should the people in these areas.
> 
> Yes, Wales voted for Brexit, fair dos


You are wrong there. Central Government control the entire UK, the devolved Governments don't have the powers to control Devolution (this was confirmed in the Supreme Court unanimously) or the powers to hold Independent Referendum's (The UK Government have to give the devolved assemblies such powers and they have said no to Scotland) it's all controlled from Westminster as they are the UK Government and last time I looked Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland are in the UK and Gibraltar is owned by the UK Government.

Theresa May said no to Sturgeon: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-scottish-independence-referendum-rules-out-second-a7139391.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola

Michael Fallon said no to second Scottish Referendum: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...eon_s_bid_for_second_independence_referendum/

Stuegeon told to respect the Scottish People's decision to remain in 2014 referendum and no to a second Referendum: http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-02/...rendum-defence-minister-michael-fallon-warns/

David David says no to a Scottish Second Referendum: http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/269452...s-within-days/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## Jonescat

But we can still rise now and be the nation again .....


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> But we can still rise now and be the nation again .....


UK Government won't allow the second referendum. Scotland can't have one without permission and any court cases will be dismissed as the UK Supreme Court cleared up what powers the devolved assemblies actually have in matters that involve the UK as a whole, none is the answer. Devolved assemblies can't hold Referendum's without permission from Her Majesties Government of the United Kingdom which is currently the Conservatives. The UK Government can as well put emergency legislation through and suspend the devolved Governments and put the devolved powers back to Westminster.

The UK can rise and be a nation again yes.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Central government control England, not Scotland, Wales nor NI.
> 
> The Tories believe they can of course but these areas should be respected as should the people in these countries.
> 
> They want to preserve the UK. Refusing them a say will only fuel a possible break up.
> 
> Nicola Sturgeon for example has given May a chance to negotiate a compromise, ie: By allowing Scotland to remain in the single market if England withdraws as we now know it will do. Not surprisingly May isn't interested and expects Scotland to bear the brunt of the damaging hard Brexit her and Farage want.
> 
> Yes, Wales voted for Brexit, fair do's so let them get on with it.....


No, the Central government have devolved, certain things to those areas, but ultimately Central Government has control about our role in the international organisations, the Military, the Currency and issues related to it and other things.

Also I don't believe its just May saying about the Scotland not staying in the single market. The EU itself has said that Scotland is not in the EU at the moment (The UK is) thus it would have to join on its own but can't as its not independent and can't make those decisions... because central government controls that, because Scotland is part of the UK


----------



## Jonescat

Yes those are the rules, but as we all know, rules are made to be broken.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> Yes those are the rules, but as we all know, rules are made to be broken.


If Sturgeon broke the rules, one she is breaking UK law, two the devolved powers of Scotland can be suspended and put back to Westminster by way of emergency legislation.

Here are the devolved powers Scotland have:

Agriculture
Education
The Environment
Health
Local Government
Justice
*The reserved powers of the UK Government and UK Parliament:*

The constitution including:

the crown
the union with England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales
the UK Parliament

the existence of the (criminal) High Court of Justiciary
the existence of the (civil) Court of Session
registration and funding of political parties
International relations including:

international development
the regulation of international trade

the Home Civil Service
Defense
Treason
Social Security - WP
Tax - HMRC
Energy (Gas, Electricity etc)
Immigration and Nationality
Broadcasting
Gambling
Some aspects of transport including including railways, safety and regulation
Data protection
UK economic and monetary policy (other than Scotland's tax-varying power)
regulation of certain professions such as medicine and dentistry


----------



## Jonescat

Nations don't normally get independence by sticking their hands up and asking nicely. I understand the current position (although it is kind of you to point it out to me). But what if Scotland decides to play by different rules altogether, and forces the Government of the day to suspend devolution?


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> No, the Central government have devolved, certain things to those areas, but ultimately Central Government has control about our role in the international organisations, the Military, the Currency and issues related to it and other things.
> 
> Also I don't believe its just May saying about the Scotland not staying in the single market. The EU itself has said that Scotland is not in the EU at the moment (The UK is) thus it would have to join on its own but can't as its not independent and can't make those decisions... because central government controls that, because Scotland is part of the UK


I see where you're coming from, but don't you think the people of NI, Scotland and Gibraltar should have a say in their own affairs?

A Yes vote to prove confidence in staying in the UK despite Brexit would be conclusive.

Why suggest they don't have a say? Are you worried Scotland may vote for independence this time?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> Nations don't normally get independence by sticking their hands up and asking nicely. I understand the current position (although it is kind of you to point it out to me). But what if Scotland decides to play by different rules altogether, and forces the Government of the day to suspend devolution?


If the UK Government suspends Devolution all powers go back to Westminster so Scotland has no powers. Scotland cannot suspend its own devolved powers, that isn't possible as they don't have these granted powers (as they are reserved powers by the UK Government and UK Parliament) it has to be done via the UK Government and UK Parliament. But suspending devolved powers means Scotland gives up these powers to Westminster and the UK Government not the other way around.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> Do what the migrants done, leave all your ID at home and see how far you get. Hitch a ride on fishing vessels etc


And wear a hoodie; claim to be 17.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Imagine if NI decides they will not play nicely...and Scotland follows...

Surely Trump and his mate Vladimir could give TM helping hand and send some well equipped separatists?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> And wear a hoodie; claim to be 17.


You think I might?
Oh, thank you...
Better hide my dentures then...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Imagine if NI decides they will not play nicely...and Scotland follows...
> 
> Surely Trump and his mate Vladimir could give TM helping hand and send some well equipped separatists?


They can't scrippy. Same rules apply. They can't hold a referendum as the UK has reserved powers over this situation and can suspend there devolved powers meaning these powers go back to Westminster same goes to Wales as well.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> You think I might?
> Oh, thank you...
> Better hide my dentures then...


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> They can't script. Same rules apply. They can't hold a referendum as the UK has reserved powers over this situation and can suspend there devolved powers meaning these powers go back to Westminster same goes to Wales as well.


They can. How do you think Poland got The Referendum?
We asked soviets very nicely if we can get one , please?
Question is only how much Scots really want to leave.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> I see where you're coming from, but don't you think the people of NI, Scotland and Gibraltar should have a say in their own affairs?
> 
> A Yes vote to prove confidence in staying in the UK despite Brexit would be conclusive.
> 
> Why suggest they don't have a say? Are you worried Scotland may vote for independence this time?


no they are part of the UK. They are not independent countries. they can voice there opinions of course, but the ultimate say comes from London.

As for them saying yes to another vote. I don't believe they would vote yes, I also dont believe they will get a vote until we leave the EU. I do worry that if they did leave, that it would go very badly for them though.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> no they are part of the UK. They are not independent countries. they can voice there opinions of course, but the ultimate say comes from London.
> 
> As for them saying yes to another vote. I don't believe they would vote yes, I also dont believe they will get a vote until we leave the EU. I do worry that if they did leave, that it would go very badly for them though.


Scots are pragmatic. They will wait till 2020 and see. If Brexit fails.....


----------



## Jonescat

So - now we have a situation where central government, which already has its hands full with Brexit and whatever other events happen, has to take on additional work to control 2 countries in detail that it doesn't understand very well, and whose citizens are a bit annoyed. Hmm well played.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Scots are pragmatic. They will wait till 2020 and see. If Brexit fails.....


Or Brexit succeeds, SNP lose footing and scots realise they want to stay. Though would probably need to get rid of Corbyn for SNP to fall 

I mean if 2016 political events tell us anything it's that things aren't as predictable as they once were.


----------



## stuaz

Jonescat said:


> So - now we have a situation where central government, which already has its hands full with Brexit and whatever other events happen, has to take on additional work to control 2 countries in detail that it doesn't understand very well, and whose citizens are a bit annoyed. Hmm well played.


Not just Scotland and NI. plenty of people in the UK voted to remain so government certainly has its hands full trying to please a whole bunch of people across the country and spectrum.


----------



## kimthecat

Scots MPs vote in our House of Commons and had a say in matters that affected the English and Welsh . It is only recently ( January last year ) that English votes rules were used . About time !

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35295404
New "English votes for English laws" rules have been implemented in the House of Commons for the first time.

Conservative MPs cheered as English and Welsh members prepared to give their consent to parts of the Housing and Planning Bill that only apply to their constituencies.

Housing Minister Brandon Lewis said he was "very proud" to be implementing the reforms.

But the SNP said the changes were "driving Scotland out of the door".

They were introduced in response to calls for a stronger voice for English MPs following increased devolution to Scotland.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Or Brexit succeeds, SNP lose footing and scots realise they want to stay. Though would probably need to get rid of Corbyn for SNP to fall
> 
> I mean if 2016 political events tell us anything it's that things aren't as predictable as they once were.


What makes you think Brexit will succeed? Many seem to accept the UK becoming a poorer "nation" outside the EU and would prefer Donald Trump's US to have a say in the UK's affairs instead.

What have US President's done for the UK? Look what happened to Blair after George W Bush became president for example.

Too many UK PMs in recent years bending over backwards to please the US.

And people think Trump will be a good thing for the UK?......


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> They can. How do you think Poland got The Referendum?
> We asked soviets very nicely if we can get one , please?
> Question is only how much Scots really want to leave.


Why do you think the UK is called this. Devolved assemblies do not have constitutional powers and have no power to relinquish the UK Governments power over them. Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and England belong to the United Kingdom and are the United Kingdom.

I wonder if the remoaners are in lala land tonight. It certainly seems that way.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Not just Scotland and NI. plenty of people in the UK voted to remain so government certainly has its hands full trying to please a whole bunch of people across the country and spectrum.


This hideous far right government would go for Brexit even if remain had won.
It's been an ongoing argument within the Tory party for years. Now the anti EU wing of the party are in power.

The Tory right who tried to overthrow John Major's government unsuccessfully mid term. They are now in government.

They make Margaret Thatcher seem moderate in comparison.

They have only one mission- to please themselves, Farage and Trump.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Why do you think the UK is called this. Devolved assemblies do not have constitutional powers and have now power to relinquish the UK Governments power over them. Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and England belong to the United Kingdom and are the United Kingdom.
> 
> I wonder if the remoaners are in lala land tonight. It certainly seems that way.


No. You totally misunderstood my post . On purpose. Or not.

Trump goes hand in hand with Russia. UK trots right after their behinds ..
Trump says it is to fight IS we need to befriend Putin.Lift sanctions and sacrifice Ukraine.
Who armed IS and now points to them as " the enemy" and poses as "the goodies" who will lead OPEC and bring peace..and Assad back in power?

Sadly Russians are not only good at wooden chess...the political chess board too.

From brink of bankruptcy after sanctions to leading power..After Ukraine Baltic states will be taken.
With NATO obsolete. USA indifferent and UK tied to USA by " special deal"


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> No. You totally misunderstood my post . On purpose. Or not.
> 
> Trump goes hand in hand with Russia. UK trots right after their behinds ..


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Scots are pragmatic. They will wait till 2020 and see. If Brexit fails.....


The only problem is if Theresa May gets back in power, Scotland are stuffed then. No Referendum.

329 Conservative MPs (Popularity between 42% to 38%)
229 Labour MPs (Popularity 28% and 30%)
1 Green Party MP (in Parliament)
7 Lib Dem MPs (in Parliament)


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> The only problem is if Theresa May gets back in power, Scotland are stuffed then. No Referendum.


I think I will ask @DT for that dinghy and armbands set.

Unless join rebellion in Scotland.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I think I will ask @DT for that dinghy and armbands set.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Stockwellcat, I would be interested in why you are so bothered by the thought of Scotland becoming independent.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Unless join rebellion in Scotland.


What rebellion?
Loud mouth Sturgeon
57 SNP MPs behind her


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> Stockwellcat, I would be interested in why you are so bothered by the thought of Scotland becoming independent.


Not really bothered to be honest. 
They won't get there Independence, something called reserved powers held by Westminster over the Union of the United Kingdom.

Why?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> What have US President's done for the UK? Get them involved in illegal wars for one thing. Look what happened to Blair after George W Bush became president for example.
> 
> And people think Trump will be a good thing for the UK?......


I don't think the 90s Gulf wars were illegal ; the Afghanistan invasion is a moot point , though.
Blair was the one that lead Bush on and lied to them and us about Iraq. In the Uk he was considered to be Bush's poodle but some Americans described him as Bush's guide dog .

I don't think Trump will be a good thing for the UK but that doesn't mean to say that America won't be.

The UK has a long relationship with the US , I had/ have relatives in the US , generations going back years ,so it's familiar to me .


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> What makes you think Brexit will succeed? Many seem to accept the UK becoming a poorer "nation" outside the EU and would prefer Donald Trump's US to have a say in the UK's affairs instead.
> 
> What have US President's done for the UK? Look what happened to Blair after George W Bush became president for example.
> 
> Too many UK PMs in recent years bending over backwards to please the US.
> 
> And people think Trump will be a good thing for the UK?......


What makes you think it will fail? Or maybe you just want it to? The reality is no one actually knows which way it will go. It's the unknown we enter once Article 50 is triggered.

I for one did not vote to leave but I respect the democratic process.

As for your comments regarding the USA, I have no comment.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat said:


> Not really bothered to be honest. Why?


Because you seem very bothered by the thought of it and rejoice that they can not hold referendum, this seems to suggest you are worried. As I did not think you live in Scotland or close to border I am merely curious as to why you are (or appear to be) so very keen for them not to get independence.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well if what is said in the Sun newspaper tomorrow is true, it will no longer be a secret will it 

*Labour and Tories Unite*
*Ministers in secret talks with anti-EU Labour MPs to defeat rebel Conservatives in Commons' Brexit vote*

MINISTERS are holding secret talks with anti-EU Labour MPs in a bid to defeat Tory rebellions on Brexit this week.

It emerged last night that government whips have approached several Labour members who campaigned for Britain's EU departure.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/279102...s-brexit-vote/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I don't think the 90s Gulf wars were illegal ; the Afghanistan invasion is a moot point , though.
> Blair was the one that lead Bush on and lied to them and us about Iraq. In the Uk he was considered to be Bush's poodle but some Americans described him as Bush's guide dog .
> 
> I don't think Trump will be a good thing for the UK but that doesn't mean to say that America won't be.
> 
> The UK has a long relationship with the US , I had/ have relatives in the US , generations going back years ,so it's familiar to me .


Whether "illegal" or not are these US led wars justified? The Gulf War has rather been brushed under the carpet in recent times, except for those suffering from gulf war syndrome.

As regards Blair I agree to a point, but had it not been for GW Bush's "War on terror", I don't believe for a minute Blair would have invaded Iraq unilaterally. Blair as typical of UK PMs eager to please the US every way.

I have nothing against the US, just some of their President's.

I certainly wasn't calling the US as a country bad. I really feel for our friends over there with Trump as President.

For anyone to suggest I was is like saying all UK citizens back Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> What makes you think it will fail? Or maybe you just want it to? The reality is no one actually knows which way it will go. It's the unknown we enter once Article 50 is triggered.
> 
> I for one did not vote to leave but I respect the democratic process.
> 
> As for your comments regarding the USA, I have no comment.


I think it'll fail very badly. Having said that if it was to be a success which I doubt very much it goes against my principles.

My comments about the US relate to it politically, not the people or the country as a whole.

Working with countries the UK was often at war with in the past has ensured 70 years of peace with Nato in addition.

Plus I don't want to spend my final days stuck here when being part of the EU allowed me to retire to anywhere I like within the block.

That right is likely to be taken away from me now, so please forgive me for being rather upset about that.


----------



## Jesthar

stuaz said:


> What makes you think it will fail? Or maybe you just want it to? The reality is no one actually knows which way it will go. It's the unknown we enter once Article 50 is triggered.
> 
> I for one did not vote to leave but I respect the democratic process.
> 
> As for your comments regarding the USA, I have no comment.


I think it is respect for the democratic process - or lack of respect for it - that is causing a lot of the issues. Historically, democracy has meant that people get a vote, but that the result of the vote isn't the end of the conversation, and those on the losing end are still allowed to voice concerns and point out potential issues with some expectation of consideration and respect.

In this case, however, we have an extremely close run vote, but rather than listen to and discuss concerns of those who voted the other way the general response from a substantial set of Leavers seems to frequently be "We won, get over it." As if no-one other than Leave voters have a right to be heard any more.

I don't want the UK to fail, of course I don't. It's my country. I'd be willing to speculate that there are precious few people, whether the voted or not (or weren't entitled to vote), who want the country to _fail_. But to some, it seems wanting my country to succeed isn't enough - if I'm not jumping for joy at the thought of the EU, planning a street party, looking forward to Britain for the Brits and generally being 100% positive about how everything will be utterly marvellous when we're no longer part of the EU, then that's a problem for them and I need to "stop being negative." Mention any area that could be a problem, and apparently I need to "accept it, we're leaving." (The fact that the many remain voters _have_ accepted that and are trying to contribute to identifying essential issues that need to be addressed to make the transition a successful one appears to be missed entirely)

It all gets a bit disconcerting after a while, to be honest. I'm a realist who enjoys to look at problems objectively and work to find a solution, I don't DO rose tinted lenses. Positivity, absolutely, but _practical_ positivity, placing considered facts ahead of blind optimism and jingoism, and valuing reasoned debate. And it's kind of disappointing to see massive topics which are in need of mature and in depth debate reduced to slogans and soundbites.


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> Not just Scotland and NI. plenty of people in the UK voted to remain so government certainly has its hands full trying to please a whole bunch of people across the country and spectrum.


The government can never unite the people now, not with the extreme brexit they've opted for, not with the utter contempt they have shown the 48%.

I mean, have to laugh at the section in the white paper where the PM seeks to heal division by labelling the electorate 'victors' & 'losers'.


----------



## noushka05

.......


----------



## noushka05

3dogs2cats said:


> Stockwellcat, I would be interested in why you are so bothered by the thought of Scotland becoming independent.


I've been wondering the same thing myself. Is it because we won't be known as 'Great Britain' anymore, @stockwellcat ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Patients from abroad to be charged upfront for NHS treatment*

Patients from abroad are to be charged upfront for any non-urgent treatment on the NHS.

The new rules will apply from April this year and all hospitals will be told to check if patients are eligible for free NHS treatment before they receive any treatment.

They will then be required to share that information across the NHS. The upfront charges have been introduced because some patients cannot pay once treatment has been carried out.

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt said: "We have no problem with overseas visitors using our NHS as long as they make a fair contribution, just as the British taxpayer does.

"So today we are announcing plans to change the law which means those who aren't eligible for free care will be asked to pay upfront for non-urgent treatment.

"We aim to recover up to £500m a year by the middle of this Parliament - money that can then be reinvested in patient care."

Dr Meirion Thomas welcomed the proposals saying he believed the NHS was being exploited by so-called 'health tourists'.

He told Sky News: "It is essential that people are forced to present their passports, and not just their passports but their utility bills too.

"The total cost of health tourism is £2bn a year. We just cannot afford this any longer. The healthcare system is in crisis. I have been saying this for a long time. This is long overdue."

But some of Dr Thomas' medical colleagues disagree. They say the NHS is already in crisis and rushing through these new regulations will place further strain on the system.

The British Medical Association said: "There is no detail as to how upfront charging will be introduced from scratch in just three months in an NHS already unable to cope with normal operations.

"We need to be careful not to demonise overseas patients or sow chaos and confusion within the NHS."

http://news.sky.com/story/patients-from-abroad-to-be-charged-upfront-for-nhs-treatment-10758086


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> .......
> View attachment 299759


UK law says otherwise.
If they attempted to leave they would be breaking UK law and it doesn't matter what any so-called experts says. The Scottish Government do not have devolved powers to do this and there devolved powers can be suspended back to Westminster and UK soldiers put on Scottish streets same with Northern Ireland and Wales.

Last time I looked Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are still governed by UK law.

I am not worried I am just pointing facts out to your lala land comments.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> The government can never unite the people now, not with the extreme brexit they've opted for, not with the utter contempt they have shown the 48%.
> 
> I mean, have to laugh at the section in the white paper where the PM seeks to heal division by labelling the electorate 'victors' & 'losers'.
> 
> View attachment 299757


Just as Trump is uniting the US....

That paragraph in the white paper is what I would expect to see in "The Sun".

It also comes over as if they are deliberately encouraging conflict to these eyes.

Or alternatively they now think for the people of the UK as you'd expect in a dictatorship.....


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> *Patients from abroad to be charged upfront for NHS treatment*
> 
> Patients from abroad are to be charged upfront for any non-urgent treatment on the NHS.
> 
> The new rules will apply from April this year and all hospitals will be told to check if patients are eligible for free NHS treatment before they receive any treatment.
> 
> They will then be required to share that information across the NHS. The upfront charges have been introduced because some patients cannot pay once treatment has been carried out.
> 
> Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt said: "We have no problem with overseas visitors using our NHS as long as they make a fair contribution, just as the British taxpayer does.
> 
> "So today we are announcing plans to change the law which means those who aren't eligible for free care will be asked to pay upfront for non-urgent treatment.
> 
> "We aim to recover up to £500m a year by the middle of this Parliament - money that can then be reinvested in patient care."
> 
> Dr Meirion Thomas welcomed the proposals saying he believed the NHS was being exploited by so-called 'health tourists'.
> 
> He told Sky News: "It is essential that people are forced to present their passports, and not just their passports but their utility bills too.
> 
> "The total cost of health tourism is £2bn a year. We just cannot afford this any longer. The healthcare system is in crisis. I have been saying this for a long time. This is long overdue."
> 
> But some of Dr Thomas' medical colleagues disagree. They say the NHS is already in crisis and rushing through these new regulations will place further strain on the system.
> 
> The British Medical Association said: "There is no detail as to how upfront charging will be introduced from scratch in just three months in an NHS already unable to cope with normal operations.
> 
> "We need to be careful not to demonise overseas patients or sow chaos and confusion within the NHS."
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/patients-from-abroad-to-be-charged-upfront-for-nhs-treatment-10758086
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JEREMY HUNT


First they made people from abroad pay upfront for NHS treatment.

Then they made British citizens pay upfront for NHS treatment 

(hopefully Scotland, Wales & NI will still be able to keep their NHS free & point of need)


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Just as Trump is uniting the US.
> 
> That paragraph in the white paper is what I would expect to see in "The Sun".
> 
> It also comes over as if they are deliberately encouraging conflict to these eyes.
> 
> Or alternatively they now think for the people of the UK as you'd expect in a dictatorship.....


Exactly. What they have done though, is unite people both sides of the Atlantic in a battle against their dangerous extremism.

Speaking of the Sun. Have you seen this? Mays making sure the Tory propaganda machine is well-oiled with regular briefs & cosy meetings - what is giving Murdoch in return?. The hard brexit he desired no doubt.
*
Rupert Murdoch accused of enjoying 'astounding access' to Downing Street *

*Murdoch executives met PM or chancellor 10 times in a year - more than any other media organisation, report reveals*

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...s-to-downing-street-theresa-may-david-cameron


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> First they made people from abroad pay upfront for NHS treatment.
> 
> Then they made British citizens pay upfront for NHS treatment
> 
> (hopefully Scotland, Wales & NI will still be able to keep their NHS free & point of need)


It's certainly coming. The right wing press have been putting the NHS down for years, their intention is obvious.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Exactly. What they have done though, is unite people both sides of the Atlantic in a battle against their dangerous extremism.
> 
> Speaking of the Sun. Have you seen this? Mays making sure the Tory propaganda machine is well-oiled with regular briefs & cosy meetings - what is giving Murdoch in return?. The hard brexit he desired no doubt.
> *
> Rupert Murdoch accused of enjoying 'astounding access' to Downing Street *
> 
> *Murdoch executives met PM or chancellor 10 times in a year - more than any other media organisation, report reveals*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...s-to-downing-street-theresa-may-david-cameron


It would be hilarious if it wasn't true.

Getting the country back means taking orders from a media tycoon who isn't even British. In addition Trump now has his hands in it too.

Is it any wonder the country looks weak and pathetic to others?

It's Little Britain now for sure.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> UK law says otherwise.
> If they attempted to leave they would be breaking UK law and it doesn't matter what any so-called experts says. The Scottish Government do not have devolved powers to do this and there devolved powers can be suspended back to Westminster and UK soldiers put on Scottish streets same with Northern Ireland and Wales.
> 
> Last time I looked Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are still governed by UK law.
> 
> I am not worried I am just pointing facts out to your lala land comments.


Scotland are being dragged out of the EU against the will of the majority who voted in the referendum The SNP manifesto made it clear, should this happen they believe they should have a right to a 2nd referendum. As someone who believes in democracy, I hope they fight tooth and nail to secure a 2nd referendum. Why should they be dragged off the cliff with us?? They didn't vote for this shambles.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Scotland are being dragged out of the EU against the will of the majority who voted in the referendum The SNP manifesto made it clear, should this happen they believe they should have a right to a 2nd referendum. As someone who believes in democracy, I hope they fight tooth and nail to secure a 2nd referendum. Why should they be dragged off the cliff with us?? They didn't vote for this shambles.
> 
> View attachment 299760


Oh you missed my post that has now been buried back a few pages. The UK Government have to give the Scottish powers to hold a referendum the Scots can't just have a referendum as they don't have devolved powers to do such, this power is reserved to the UK Government who have said NO until after 2020 at which point they will consider it.

Sturgeon's SNP is not respecting the vote of those that voted remain in 2014. They are stuck with the UK until after 2020.

Scotland is not an independent country listed as an EU member the UK is. So Scotland is not being dragged out of the EU as they weren't a member to start off with the UK is.

Lastly SNP MP's voted the transition of the EU Referendum bill through Parliament at every stage and then was legislated and given Royal Assent and made law. Any court cases by Scotland will be dismissed.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Sturgeon's SNP is not respecting the vote of those that voted remain in 2014. They are stuck with the UK until after 2020.


I disagree. The very mention of Indyref 2 wouldn't have occurred if it wasn't for the EU referendum, at least for the present.

I'm sure many who voted Remain in 2014 would now vote differently. If I was in Scotland I might have voted Remain then, but would 100% vote leave the UK now if given the opportunity.

Besides Sturgeon has been very reasonable in asking for Scotland to continue in the single market. As you can expect this request has been denied to them.

She was democratically elected to serve Scotland after all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> As you can expect this request has been denied to them.


 Theresa May listened to Sturgeon and all the devolved leaders and is still listening to them. The Supreme Court instructed the UK Government to say unanimously that the UK Government does not need to consult the devolved assemblies over Brexit, so I think May is being reasonable 



> Besides Sturgeon has been very reasonable in asking for Scotland to continue in the single market.


Perhaps because the UK will have no choice but to come out of the Single Market because the UK will be controlling migration from the EU. Have you ever thought that? May is being realistic when she mentions that the UK has to come out of the Single Market. Scotland being part of the UK means there request is denied. This has been covered I don't know how many times in Parliament with the SNP present by Theresa May and David Davis and it is in the White Paper as well.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> It would be hilarious if it wasn't true.
> 
> Getting the country back means taking orders from a media tycoon who isn't even British. In addition Trump now has his hands in it too.
> 
> Is it any wonder the country looks weak and pathetic to others?
> 
> It's Little Britain now for sure.


I suppose thats one positive, it will make nationalistic flag wavers look even sillier as we slide further into insignificance. Although we will be a significant tax haven!

This is what leadership looks like. Merkel telling May tax is a price paid for a fair & just society & Germany wont be joining the race to the bottom by following in the footsteps of Britain & Trump.












stockwellcat said:


> Oh you missed my post that has now been buried back a few pages. The UK Government have to give the Scottish powers to hold a referendum the Scots can't just have a referendum as they don't have devolved powers to do such, this power is reserved to the UK Government who have said NO until after 2020 at which point they will consider it.
> 
> Sturgeon's SNP is not respecting the vote of those that voted remain in 2014. They are stuck with the UK until after 2020.
> 
> Scotland is not an independent country listed as an EU member the UK is. So Scotland is not being dragged out of the EU as they weren't a member to start off with the UK is.
> 
> Lastly SNP MP's voted the transition of the EU Referendum bill through Parliament at every stage until it was legislated and given Royal Assent and made law. Any court cases by Scotland will be dismissed.


I'm well aware of the result and timetable, but in case you hadn't noticed, circumstances have changed. And its in the SNP manifesto what could happen if they did. Good luck to em, I say. English people are actually joining the SNP to help them break free of this looming disaster area. How selfless is that?


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Poll on this thread has reached 102 definitely out.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> I think it'll fail very badly. Having said that if it was to be a success which I doubt very much it goes against my principles.
> 
> My comments about the US relate to it politically, not the people or the country as a whole.
> 
> Working with countries the UK was often at war with in the past has ensured 70 years of peace with Nato in addition.
> 
> Plus I don't want to spend my final days stuck here when being part of the EU allowed me to retire to anywhere I like within the block.
> 
> That right is likely to be taken away from me now, so please forgive me for being rather upset about that.


Just as an FYI you can retire to any country in the world if you want to, well maybe not North Korea but most countries anyway.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> The Poll on this thread has reached 102 definitely out.


You don't think there's a possibility forum member/members could be opening new accounts to vote, do you? Or is that just my suspicious mind at play


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You don't think there's a possibility forum member/members could be opening new accounts to vote, do you? Or is that just my suspicious mind at play


It's just you don't like the fact that more people want the UK to leave the EU than you imagined


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> It's just you don't like the fact that more people want the UK to leave the EU than you imagined


Like a (probably) corrupted poll on a petforum matters to me:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Like a (probably) corrupted poll on a petforum matters to me:Hilarious


Next you'll be saying the EU Referendum was corrupt because it didn't sway the way remainers wanted it to go :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Just as an FYI you can retire to any country in the world if you want to, well maybe not North Korea but most countries anyway.


Yeah, maybe if I was mega rich. Not all of us are that fortunate. The EU gave us that opportunity.

John Lennon struggled for many years for his US green card.

It's OK for you to say nothing will change, how do any of us know for sure?


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> He told Sky News: "It is essential that people are forced to present their passports, and not just their passports but their utility bills too.


I don't understand this, surely when you give you're name and it goes into a computer, your NH number and address comes up automatically?


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Next you'll be saying the EU Referendum was corrupt because it didn't sway the way remainers wanted it to go :Hilarious


Of course it was corrupt. Every premise of the despicable Leave campaign - sovereignty, immigration, money for NHS - has collapsed: because they were *ALL* lies!

Remind me again why we voted out?

So, what do we know from the White Paper?

1. Immigration is not the cause of pressure on schools, or housing or wages.

2. The EU is not the cause of Britain's lack of control over immigration.

3. The EU is not the supplier of Britain's record levels of net migration.

4. The EU has never been a threat to British sovereignty or law making

5. Britain voluntarily adopted those laws of the EU that were of convenience to us and we will be adopting those same laws into British law when we leave.

6. Britain is not going to stop sending money to Brussels, even after we leave the EU.

7. People who write shit on buses should be made to eat the buses.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Of course it was corrupt. Every premise of the despicable Leave campaign - sovereignty, immigration, money for NHS - has collapsed: because they were *ALL* lies!
> 
> Remind me again why we voted out?
> 
> So, what do we know from the White Paper?
> 
> 1. Immigration is not the cause of pressure on schools, or housing or wages.
> 
> 2. The EU is not the cause of Britain's lack of control over immigration.
> 
> 3. The EU is not the supplier of Britain's record levels of net migration.
> 
> 4. The EU has never been a threat to British sovereignty or law making
> 
> 5. Britain voluntarily adopted those laws of the EU that were of convenience to us and we will be adopting those same laws into British law when we leave.
> 
> 6. Britain is not going to stop sending money to Brussels, even after we leave the EU.
> 
> 7. People who write shit on buses should be made to eat the buses.


:Yawn We have already been through this. The circles seem to be going around again.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> :Yawn We have already been through this. The circles seem to be going around again.


How did I know you were going to say this?:Wideyed

I wonder if I'm psychic


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> Perhaps qe could build a wall round it


What a good idea, I'm fed up with hearing London this and London that, there is more to the UK than london but according ot the new, papers, and govenment you wouldn't think so.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

noushka05 said:


> I've been wondering the same thing myself. Is it because we won't be known as 'Great Britain' anymore, @stockwellcat ?


I think that is probably the reason.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Remind me again why we voted out?


Here are some, please note, this doesn't mean that they are my reasonsfor voting out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> I think that is probably the reason.


Nothing to do with this.
You are both terribly wrong


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Yeah, maybe if I was mega rich. Not all of us are that fortunate. The EU gave us that opportunity.
> 
> John Lennon struggled for many years for his US green card.
> 
> It's OK for you to say nothing will change, how do any of us know for sure?


Nope you don't have to be "mega rich". Maybe you might actually have to work for the privilege but the good things don't come easy in life. I think the highest number of British retirees is actually outside of Europe, so seems like its certainly doable for a lot of people.


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> Of course it was corrupt. Every premise of the despicable Leave campaign - sovereignty, immigration, money for NHS - has collapsed: because they were *ALL* lies!
> .


I know I was not going to come on here again but I can't sit back and let your arrogant tosh go unanswered

You *KNOW *the referendum was corrupt[
You *KNOW that *all we leavers are despicable people
You KNOW we are all going to suffer terribly by not being in the EU, you must be a time traveller

If you are so sure of your facts why are you hiding behind a computer screen instead of standing up for your beliefs in front of the country
Why aren't you standing toe to toe with Therese May arguing your point

Is it because in your heart you know you are wrong
OK now go ahead and pull me to bits, I don't give a damn


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Nope you don't have to be "mega rich". Maybe you might actually have to work for the privilege but the good things don't come easy in life. I think the highest number of British retirees is actually outside of Europe, so seems like its certainly doable for a lot of people.


Bloody cheek! Like millions of others in the world I work damn hard for my money.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> I know I was not going to come on here again but I can't sit back and let your arrogant tosh go unanswered
> 
> You *KNOW *the referendum was corrupt[
> You *KNOW that *all we leavers are despicable people
> You KNOW we are all going to suffer terribly by not being in the EU, you must be a time traveller
> 
> If you are so sure of your facts why are you hiding behind a computer screen instead of standing up for your beliefs in front of the country
> Why aren't you standing toe to toe with Therese May arguing your point
> 
> Is it because in your heart you know you are wrong
> OK now go ahead and pull me to bits, I don't give a damn


So,vyou're saying people who disagree with May shouldn't have an opinion?

I choose to stand toe to toe with who I want to, not who you tell us to do.

That goes for Jeremy Corbyn too.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Bloody cheek! Like millions of others in the world I work damn hard for my money.


Never said you didn't.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Bloody cheek! Like millions of others in the world I work damn hard for my money.





KittenKong said:


> So,vyou're saying people who disagree with May shouldn't have an opinion?
> 
> I choose to stand toe to toe with who I want to, not who you tell us to do.
> 
> That goes for Jeremy Corbyn too.


Wow, you are good at twisting things aren't you. I wouldn't like to see the world through your eyes, it must be a very sad place


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Wow, you are good at twisting things aren't you. I wouldn't like to see the world through your eyes, it must be a very sad place


Well you're entitled to believe May/Farage and Trump will be good for your country.

Yes it has become, or is becoming a very sad place, like America under Trump.

Like everyone I have my principles and beliefs. Brexit, May, Farage and Trump to mention a few go against everything I personally believe in.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> I know I was not going to come on here again but I can't sit back and let your arrogant tosh go unanswered
> 
> You *KNOW *the referendum was corrupt[
> You *KNOW that *all we leavers are despicable people
> You KNOW we are all going to suffer terribly by not being in the EU, you must be a time traveller
> 
> If you are so sure of your facts why are you hiding behind a computer screen instead of standing up for your beliefs in front of the country
> Why aren't you standing toe to toe with Therese May arguing your point
> 
> Is it because in your heart you know you are wrong
> OK now go ahead and pull me to bits, I don't give a damn


I'll anwer your points one at a time.

1). I said the referendum was corrupt because the reasons given for leaving were based on a pack of lies. The white paper now proves it  The public have been completely duped!

2) Please show me where I've said that I *KNOW that* all leavers are despicable people? You can't because you are a lying.

3) No, I know we are all going to suffer because we will never have as good a deal as we have with in the EU. We are linking up with trump, heading for tax haven status.
Do you not realise that UK becoming a tax haven because of brexit, will actually reduce our sovereignty over how we make policy? http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/blog/why-brexit-bad-our-health?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Weekly newsletter 03022017&utm_content=Weekly newsletter 03022017+CID_2e991aa9976a809750a178b39fa51ead&utm_source=Email marketing software&utm_term=Read Tamaras blog










4) Do campaigning & protesting against this regressive governments policies & joining & donating to causes for environmental justice count as standing up for my beliefs?

5) Actually I hope with all my heart I'll be proved wrong, sadly I'm pretty confident I'm going to be on the right side of History. I think you, however, are going to be in for a very rude awakening - & sooner than you think. And I really mean it when I say, I hope I'm proven wrong.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> *Here are some*, please note, this doesn't mean that they are my reasonsfor voting out.


Where? I think you've forgotten to put them on


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yeah, maybe if I was mega rich. Not all of us are that fortunate. The EU gave us that opportunity.
> 
> John Lennon struggled for many years for his US green card.


Because he had a drug record maybe ?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Wow, you are good at twisting things aren't you. I wouldn't like to see the world through your eyes, it must be a very sad place


Who said I was twisting things? We were asked to stand toe to toe with May and her vision of Brexit.

You've got to be kidding!


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> I've been wondering the same thing myself. Is it because we won't be known as 'Great Britain' anymore, @stockwellcat ?


 Apparently , we're known as Great Britain because we're bigger than Brittany so technically , we'll still be known as Great 

As to the poll at the start of this thread , the number of leavers *and *remainers has risen so perhaps remainers members have been re joining under another name and voting again .


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Who said I was twisting things? We were asked to stand toe to toe with May and her vision of Brexit.
> 
> You've got to be kidding!


But you had twisted what two other members had said, you have twisted my words several times on this thread and by selective quoting of articles and others off this forum. It's here for all to see.

Sorry, this isn't an attack, it's an observation. As I said, I think it's sad that you are upsetting yourself so much by doing this and seemly ignoring anything positive


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Where? I think you've forgotten to put them on


Sorry about that.
Here are the top five reasons why people voted LEAVE - Your Brexit


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> It's certainly coming. The right wing press have been putting the NHS down for years, their intention is obvious.


 if you mean complaints about the state of it and the way it is run then most newspapers do that . Should the state if the NHS be ignored?

The Mirror generally supports Labour

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-dying-hospitals-go-meltdown-4930938

Having said that , this is to do with the Conservative government policies, not Brexit. It could happen Brexit or not . Like many other leavers , I didn't vote for a Tory government .


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Who said I was twisting things? We were asked to stand toe to toe with May and her vision of Brexit.
> 
> You've got to be kidding!


I prefer Theresa May's vision of Brexit than the ideas put across from remoaners like Tim Farron, Nicola Sturgeon, SNP and members of the public that voted remain were they want to keep the UK in the EU via the back door so to speak.

Leave means leave not stay in, but obviously the word leave means something totally different to remoaners who want to do everything they can to disrupt the will of the people who won the EU Referendum.


----------



## Bisbow

You have said on more than one occasion that people who voted out are racist, xenophobic etc, etc and I a not wasting my time looking

You believe all the negatives that have been drip fed into your brain without realising it. not one of your posts has been an individual thought of your own, all gleaned from the web by people with a personal agenda to make themselves feel better

I think and hope you are wrong but there is know way of knowing for a few years yet so all the pontificating is useless and no, you won't go toe to toe because you know it is a lost cause and you would loose face

All you spouting will not change minds because we can see you are getting desperate


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> But you had twisted what two other members had said, you have twisted my words several times on this thread and by selective quoting of articles and others off this forum. It's here for all to see.
> 
> Sorry, this isn't an attack, it's an observation. As I said, I think it's sad that you are upsetting yourself so much by doing this and seemly ignoring anything positive


Thing is, no one can mention anything positive, even the most passionate of Brexiteers. I've observed this on here and the Sabre site.

Waving the Union Jack and shouting. "We're leaving- Yahoo" is not positive, neither is name calling and being accused of hating Britain!

If I hated the country so much I wouldn't be suggesting a compromise that would seek to unite the country would I? Do you really want a divided country?

And do you actually believe everyone will come to embrace Brexit in time?

That will never happen, sorry to disappoint you.

Being accused of "twisting" is rather a strong allegation isn't it?

Perhaps I may have misunderstood others from time to time (and I'm not alone), but I have never set out to deliberately distort and twist what others have said.

If you think that of me, I can only apologise as it was never my intention.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> You have said on more than one occasion that people who voted out are racist, xenophobic etc, etc and I a not wasting my time looking
> 
> You believe all the negatives that have been drip fed into your brain without realising it. not one of your posts has been an individual thought of your own, all gleaned from the web by people with a personal agenda to make themselves feel better
> 
> I think and hope you are wrong but there is know way of knowing for a few years yet so all the pontificating is useless and no, you won't go toe to toe because you know it is a lost cause and you would loose face
> 
> All you spouting will not change minds because we can see you are getting desperate


That's not true. What was said is Racists etc WILL have voted for Brexit but at no time was it suggested all leave voters are racist etc.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Thing is, no one can mention anything positive, even the most passionate of Brexiteers. I've observed this on here and the Sabre site.


I think you are only seeing what agrees with you. There are many positives put forward. Many negatives too I agree, but those mainly seem to be about the individual rather than the country s a whole, and a lot of those put forward as bad for the country have seemed to have been disproved already.



KittenKong said:


> And do you actually believe everyone will come to embrace Brexit in time?


I really don't think everyone will come around, no. Like I never have to being fleeced by the EU



KittenKong said:


> Perhaps I may have misunderstood others from time to time (and I'm not alone), but I have never set out to deliberately distort and twist what others have said.


Most of the way through this thread I have admired your ability to have a reasoned debate, however in the last few days this seems to have been overtaken with something else.
Maybe you have some other worries in your life that are affecting you, or you are being influenced by the doom and gloom merchants on this thread.
I hope you get back to reasoned thought because I've valued your (and Goblins) input whereas the majority on here I don't even bother to read now


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> That's not true. What was said is Racists etc WILL have voted for Brexit but at no time was it suggested all leave voters are racist etc.


Im pretty sure that Goblin said this. I pointed out that some remainers voted for their own personal reasons to stay and that didnt mean they werent racist . he replied some thing like , that some remainers are racist but all leave voters are racist because they couldn't give him a good reason for leaving .


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> That's not true. What was said is Racists etc WILL have voted for Brexit but at no time was it suggested all leave voters are racist etc.


It HAS been said


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> You have said on more than one occasion that people who voted out are racist, xenophobic etc, etc and I a not wasting my time looking
> 
> You believe all the negatives that have been drip fed into your brain without realising it. not one of your posts has been an individual thought of your own, all gleaned from the web by people with a personal agenda to make themselves feel better
> 
> I think and hope you are wrong but there is know way of knowing for a few years yet so all the pontificating is useless and no, you won't go toe to toe because you know it is a lost cause and you would loose face
> 
> All you spouting will not change minds because we can see you are getting desperate


That is a complete fabrication on your part -. Thank you @KittenKong for clarifying on my behalf x This exactly -" Racists etc WILL have voted for Brexit but at no time was it suggested all leave voters are racist etc"

Let me just make myself crystal clear to you, I have 2 children, if you think I want brexit to be a disaster, you could not be more wrong. But I'm a realist, I put my faith in experts not spin doctors & charlatans.

And you don't seem to grasp the governments own white paper _now proves_ we were fed a pack of lies?? So please explain what there is to be positive about?

This lady is a constituent of Theresa May. She went toe to toe with her & handed May her **** on a plate  http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...xit_with_prime_minister_theresa_may_1_4807899

A few juicy snippets from the meeting.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> It HAS been said


Not by me. You're a liar.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> if you mean complaints about the state of it and the way it is run then most newspapers do that . Should the state if the NHS be ignored?
> 
> The Mirror generally supports Labour
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-dying-hospitals-go-meltdown-4930938
> 
> Having said that , this is to do with the Conservative government policies, not Brexit. It could happen Brexit or not . Like many other leavers , I didn't vote for a Tory government .


Yes, I agree but when do you see the good the NHS do reported in such papers?

Should have made this clear in my post.


----------



## Bisbow

Please read kimthecats post

So many of your "experts" have been proven wrong believing what they say is hard now, you put your faith in the wrong place

And more web gleaned bits to try to prove your point, and the font gets bigger every time, do you think that making it bigger is better

It's not working and your children, like my grandchildren now have a much better future to choose from


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> Not by me. You're a liar.


You are getting desperate aren't you


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I agree but when do you see the good the NHS do reported in such papers?
> 
> Should have made this clear in my post.


 OIC . Whatever the papers think , I am so grateful to the NHS , I've had good care and drugs that are expensive. I dread to think what would have happened to me if it wasn't for the NHS.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> It HAS been said


Perhaps you can provide a screenshot or link to prove this? I certainly don't recall seeing evidence of that and I've followed this thread from day one...

Yes, many experts may have so far been proven wrong but as things stand the UK continues to be a member of the European Union at the present time!


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Please read kimthecats post
> 
> So many of your "experts" have been proven wrong believing what they say is hard now, you put your faith in the wrong place
> 
> And more web gleaned bits to try to prove your point, and the font gets bigger every time, do you think that making it bigger is better
> 
> It's not working and your children, like my grandchildren now have a much better future to choose from


But they haven't been proved wrong. We know now, FOR SURE, with the white paper, the EU was working. We know the failings of government were projected onto the EU. The EU was used as a scapegoat. You think things will be better in an alignment with an unhinged dictator in America? You think things will get better as a tax haven? You really believe we will be able to address the most dangerous threat to life on earth with a bunch of climate deniers in government in bed with the fossil fuel industry?.

Future generations will never forgive us.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> That is a complete fabrication on your part -. Thank you @KittenKong for clarifying on my behalf x This exactly -" Racists etc WILL have voted for Brexit but at no time was it suggested all leave voters are racist etc"


As I said in a previous post , I'm pretty sure Goblin said something to that effect . maybe later i will look for it , its in one of these threads somewhere. You might not have seen it .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> As I said in a previous post , I'm pretty sure Goblin said something to that effect . maybe later i will look for it , its in one of these threads somewhere. You might not have seen it .


I am doing this now, because I am sure I have been accused of this on this thread before and kicked off about it.

Might be a while before I find such posts due to the amount of pages on this thread.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> You are getting desperate aren't you


Not really, I just don't like being accused of something I didn't say. Would you? So please put you money where your mouth is & prove it ( but you know you cant find anything because YOU are the liar). I have friends & family who voted leave & they aren't racist.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> As I said in a previous post , I'm pretty sure Goblin said something to that effect . maybe later i will look for it , its in one of these threads somewhere. You might not have seen it .


What Goblin says has nothing to do with me.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Not really, I just don't like being accused of something I didn't say. Would you? So please put you money where your mouth is & prove it ( but you know you cant find anything because YOU are the liar). I have friends & family who voted leave & they aren't racist.


Yes I think an apology to Noushka is in order here.


----------



## Bisbow

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" your quote, fits you perfectly

As I said, call me what you want, I have better things to do than search 245 pages
As I have been ill with the fluey bug for 2 weeks I have a lot to catch up on and I still think you are getting desperate because you know you are loosing so I will be leaving you to fume all by yourself


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" your quote, fits you perfectly
> 
> As I said, call me what you want, I have better things to do than search 245 pages
> As I have been ill with the fluey bug for 2 weeks I have a lot to catch up on and I still think you are getting desperate because you know you are loosing so I will be leaving you to fume all by yourself


Sorry, but with respect, if you accuse someone of saying something they deny you should be prepared to prove it even if it means shifting through 245 pages.

Or at least have the guts to apologise that you're in the wrong.


----------



## stockwellcat.

How the tone of this thread has changed since the Referendum results is unbelievable and the amount of times people have back tracked and gone around in circles is beyond belief.

Here is what I have found. In post 1300 page 65 Nicky10 said this:


> And the angry racists have won, I hope you're all so proud in a few years.


Alot of people on here got upset with this comment including me and then Noushka05 said this on page 66 post 1314 to try and calm things down:


> Nicky may not have meant everyone who voted out is a racist - but that ALL racists will have voted out - so in effect shes right, they have won. The far right across the globe are celebrating. These are very scary times.


The racist and xeonphobic comments have cropped up in later threads I have not got to yet, but I do remember responding to them.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> OIC . Whatever the papers think , I am so grateful to the NHS , I've had good care and drugs that are expensive. I dread to think what would have happened to me if it wasn't for the NHS.


I would think every single person under the filthy rich category, is grateful to and grateful for the NHS 

Be pretty damn odd if they weren't


----------



## Satori

stuaz said:


> Never said you didn't.


No, but you evidently touched a nerve.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> What Goblin says has nothing to do with me.


 yes of course !

But the quote I replied to said this 
This exactly -" Racists etc WILL have voted for Brexit but at no time was it suggested all leave voters are racist etc"

I took that to mean that no one at all suggested it in any thread about this subject .


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" your quote, fits you perfectly
> 
> As I said, call me what you want, I have better things to do than search 245 pages
> As I have been ill with the fluey bug for 2 weeks I have a lot to catch up on and I still think you are getting desperate because you know you are loosing so I will be leaving you to fume all by yourself


 That quote is for people who make malicious unfounded allegations when they're losing a debate. I didn't say the things you accused me of - so I'm not slandering you because you are a liar.



KittenKong said:


> Sorry, but with respect, if you accuse someone of saying something they deny you should be prepared to prove it even if it means shifting through 245 pages.
> 
> Or at least have the guts to apologise that you're in the wrong.


Thank you x



stockwellcat said:


> How the tone of this thread has changed since the Referendum results is unbelievable and the amount of times people have back tracked and gone around in circles is beyond belief.
> 
> Here is what I have found. In post 1300 page 65 Nicky10 said this:
> 
> Alot of people on here got upset with this comment including me and then Noushka05 said this on page 66 post 1314:
> 
> The racist and xeonphobic comments have cropped up in later threads I have not got to yet, but I do remember responding to them.


Are you serious @stockwellcat? That clearly doesn't mean every one who vote out is a racist. You will NEVER find a post of mine that does say that, so good luck with the search. Nor will you find a post that says this - "You *KNOW that *all we leavers are despicable people". Because they are blatant lies.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Are you serious @stockwellcat? That clearly doesn't mean every one who vote out is a racist. You will NEVER find a post of mine that does say that, so good luck with the search. Nor will you find a post that says this - "You *KNOW that *all we leavers are despicable people". Because they are blatant lies.


Calm down @noushka05 I did not say you said this or did I imply, I was pointing out that somewhere on this thread there was a debate/row on somebody mentioning the leave voters being racist and xeonphobic and hordes of other names. It has taken me hours to go through this thread and I am now on page 207 and giving it a break as my eyes are sore and will be back on in 30 minutes or so to finish reading through this thread. I did not once say or accuse you of saying anything @noushka05.


----------



## Bisbow

noushka

If you say you did not say that I believe you and apologise but you have intimated that on more than one occasion and I don't have time to read the whole post

I am not racist or any of the other accusations that leavers have been accused or and no one has apologised to me for suggesting it

Has any remainer apologised for calling us names or is it only leavers that need to apologise

I have no wish to offend you but I still totally believe you to be wrong and do not want to keep having you try to change my mind. You won't


----------



## SusieRainbow

This is getting rather heated and some name calling going on. I don't want to close it but unless you all calm down I or someone else will.


----------



## lymorelynn

SusieRainbow said:


> This is getting rather heated and some name calling going on. I don't want to close it but unless you all calm down I or someone else will.


I can only echo what @SusieRainbow has said.


----------



## Bisbow

SusieRainbow said:


> This is getting rather heated and some name calling going on. I don't want to close it but unless you all calm down I or someone else will.


Sorry ladies, I have no wish to call names to anyone

I will not make any more posts at all


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Calm down @noushka05 I did not say you said this or did I imply, I was pointing out that somewhere on this thread there was a debate/row on somebody mentioning the leave voters being racist and xeonphobic and hordes of other names. It has taken me hours to go through this thread and I am now on page 207 and giving it a break as my eyes are sore and will be back on in 30 minutes or so to finish reading through this thread. I did not once say or accuse you of saying anything @noushka05.


Keep up the good work in clearing my name then 



Bisbow said:


> noushka
> 
> If you say you did not say that I believe you and apologise but you have intimated that on more than one occasion and I don't have time to read the whole post
> 
> I am not racist or any of the other accusations that leavers have been accused or and no one has apologised to me for suggesting it
> 
> Has any remainer apologised for calling us names or is it only leavers that need to apologise
> 
> I have no wish to offend you but I still totally believe you to be wrong and do not want to keep having you try to change my mind. You won't


Even though it feels a bit like a back handed apology, I'll take it. Thank you Bisbow . I've actually been very clear on several occasions that I don't think everyone who voted to leave is a racist. (a few examples below).

I think the worst name I've called leavers is brexiteers lol. Us remainers are called remoaners all the time. I don't personally care anymore - I've 'owned' the label 

I don't expect anyone could change your mind, but this is a debate , people put their argument forward & people who disagree counter it with their own. I don't think we should make it personal. Anyway, no hard feelings & I apologise if I upset you.



noushka05 said:


> Please dont think I was suggesting everyone who voted out is racist, because I most certainly don't think that. We have really good friends who voted out, and they certainly aren't. But all the racists - UKIP, the BNP, Britain First, EDL were campaigning hard for brexit. And literally the ONLY people abroad now congratulating us are the far right. We should be very worried by this.
> 
> (glad you & your hubby are friends SS lol Families shouldnt fall out over politics or money! Isnt that a saying? Or have I made it up! lol)





noushka05 said:


> I don't understand why you're taking things so personally with Cheeky :/ She hasn't said YOU are a sheep, but lots of people are brainwashed by the media & the gutter press plus politicians like Farage & Johnson led a xenophobic campaign - they are responsible for whipping up nationalism. These things are impossible to deny.
> 
> I've been involved in the brexit threads & have never, ever seen you get personal with anyone Cheeky - In fact i've never seen you get personal with anyone full stop. Like you, I don't think for a single moment that everyone who voted out is a racist - some of my friends voted out & I know for sure they aren't. But experts did warn us that if we voted to brexit xenophobia was likely to increase, they said it would embolden racists. From what I saw you merely pointed that out, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Xenophobic speak IS now mainstream, thanks to the gutter press & hateful right wing MPs. You only have to listen to the speechs at the tory conference with politicians using the 'us vs them' tactic to divide this country. This sort of language encourages racism. We have to speak out against it, refuse to be shut down Cheeky





noushka05 said:


> If you look on the referendum thread, quite a few of us were posting warnings voting to brexit would fuel xenophobia. Pretty much the whole leave campaign was nasty & divisive centred around scapegoating migrants & whipping up nationalism.
> 
> Of course not everyone who voted out are racist, but we were warned a vote for brexit would embolden racists - & it has. And the divisive rhetoric being spewed out by this hard right government is fanning the flames of xenophobia & hate.
> 
> If people refuse to recognise racism & take a stand against it (like the person who wrote this) then then we're in big trouble.
> 
> View attachment 286823


----------



## Bisbow

Thank you noushka

As I said to the staff members I now leave this thread. good luck with the debate


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Keep up the good work in clearing my name then
> 
> Even though it feels a bit like a back handed apology, I'll take it. Thank you Bisbow . I've actually been very clear on several occasions that I don't think everyone who voted to leave is a racist. (a few examples below).
> 
> I think the worst name I've called leavers is brexiteers lol. Us remainers are called remoaners all the time. I don't personally care anymore - I've 'owned' the label
> 
> I don't expect anyone could change your mind, but this is a debate , people put their argument forward & people who disagree counter it with their own. I don't think we should make it personal. Anyway, no hard feelings & I apologise if I upset you.


I have honestly given up @noushka05 there's two many pages  No need to clear your name or anybody elses.

I will be ducking out of this thread now as I don't really have anything else to contribute as in reality we won't know anything else until the negotiations start or even towards the end of the negotiations.

I to apologise if I have upset anyone in any way.

Have fun with this debate


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.open-britain.co.uk/umunn...lta_talks_does_not_bode_well_for_negotiations


----------



## cheekyscrip

We are all l


Bisbow said:


> "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" your quote, fits you perfectly
> 
> As I said, call me what you want, I have better things to do than search 245 pages
> As I have been ill with the fluey bug for 2 weeks I have a lot to catch up on and I still think you are getting desperate because you know you are loosing so I will be leaving you to fume all by yourself


We all are losing.

By the way I do not appreciate derogatory and derisive term " remoaners" to be used in reasonable debate.
Equally well could be said it is the moans about nasty EU, immigrants that want our jobs and our benefits, plus want to use our schools and NHS!
Obviously Brits working abroad never get sick and home school their children.
We are all losing.
Just that Leave will find scapegoat in those foreigners.
If you voted Leave believing in money for NHS then you were lied to.
If you wanted to end austerity then you will get much more cuts for much longer.
If you think you will get more control over your border...then it was always up to UK not EU.

If you voted to Leave because you think your part of the country is poorer...then lay blame at your government.
If you voted Leave because you are fed up with Islamic extremists, then they did not come from EU.

If you think Britain will have more say in alliance with USA than it had in EU...it I risible.
If you think custom tariffs, inflation, devaluation of your currency is good for us...it is not.

If you think that after initial downturn things get better than in EU...it is only wishful thinking.
If you think your country will be more united...you are mistaken.

Those who want people like.Murdoch to take control.

You won.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> It has taken me hours to go through this thread and I am now on page 207 and giving it a break as my eyes are sore and will be back on in 30 minutes or so to finish reading through this thread


You didn't need to do that, there's a search function 
I think the offending place is from around post 198 or so on this thread 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/...new-scottish-independence-bill.435238/page-11

If it's in one of the thousand or so quotes or memes of course it won't show up, but then they can say they didn't say it


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said: ↑
Didn't we debate this in a thread that went to over a hundred pages ?

Goblin: Amounted to xenophobia about immigrants and Nationalism which people are now denying that they voted for.

It looks like he didn't actually use the word racist , but you get the gist of what he meant .
I think there was more but perhaps we should move on now .


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> You didn't need to do that, there's a search function
> I think the offending place is from around post 198 or so on this thread
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/...new-scottish-independence-bill.435238/page-11
> 
> If it's in one of the thousand or so quotes or memes of course it won't show up, but then they can say they didn't say it


" Amounted to xenophobia about immigrants *and Nationalism *which people are now denying that they voted for" Not one to stick up for Goblin, but clearly he isn't saying everyone who voted out is racist either.

And you will NEVER find a meme I've posted that states that either - so stop stirring it, Rona


----------



## rona

https://www.farminguk.com/News/Arla-to-invest-37-5m-in-UK-dairy-sites_45489.html


----------



## rona

https://www.farminguk.com/News/Gove...ge-better-animal-welfare-practices_45449.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

Racism:








Scaremongering. Lies.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit campaign posters.
Whom are meant to appease?
Obviously not xenophobic racists.
Because we all know that EU sent us Islamic extremists therefore we have to build a wall.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> " Amounted to xenophobia about immigrants *and Nationalism *which people are now denying that they voted for" Not one to stick up for Goblin, but clearly he isn't saying everyone who voted out is racist either.


perhaps not but as he said it in relation to this thread , it *suggests* that all those involved in this thread who voted our are racist.

Your quote = Racists etc WILL have voted for Brexit but at no time was it *suggested* all leave voters are racist *etc*"
You said *etc* and I assume that includes xenophobia and nationalism .


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> perhaps not but as he said it in relation to this thread , it *suggests* that all those involved in this thread who voted our are racist.
> 
> Your quote = Racists etc WILL have voted for Brexit but at no time was it *suggested* all leave voters are racist *etc*"
> You said *etc* and I assume that includes xenophobia and nationalism .


I cant really speak for Goblin. I don't think all those involved in this thread who voted leave are racist & I didn't interpret Goblins post as meaning that either. Maybe he will clarify if sees this.

I don't recall my quote or the context in which I posted it, but even that is clearly isn't saying all leave voters are racist. Nationalism isn't racism.


----------



## KittenKong

I think the point Goblin was trying to make is many fell for xenophobic scaremongering, the "threat" of Turkish Muslims coming to the UK as they were about to join the EU. There was also the "threat" of women being raped and the likes mentioned. 

Many of the people who voted leave aren't actually racist but were scared into voting this way through what the xenophobes' from many from the leave campaign said.

At no time did I observe Goblin personally calling anyone here xenophobic.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> https://www.farminguk.com/News/Arla-to-invest-37-5m-in-UK-dairy-sites_45489.html


 That's good news.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
similarly in the U-S, not *every* Trumpling supporter is racist, bigoted, a misogynist, angry over the fact that nonwhites will soon outnumber whites in the U-S popn, etc,
but yes, I'd say it's extremely likely that *IF* U voted *AND* U're racist, despise women or think they shouldn't have equal pay to men for the same work with the same qualifications,
fear the demographic change when 'white' becomes a minority, etc, then it's overwhelmingly likely U voted for Trumpster.
.
any other Trump votes would come from those who stand to gain from his proposals -
corporate suits, megawealthy [rollbacks on upper-income taxes], deregulation of extractive industries, deregulate financial sector, etc.
.
He's trying to disassemble hte Dodd-Frank bill as we post here -
the very legislation writeen to *prevent* another economic meltdown, caused by unethical financial practices.
Have we forgotten 2008 so quickly?!
.
.
He's gutting recent legislation to protect consumers from fraud [the Wells Fargo bank, duping millions of depositors into duplicate accounts, then charging fees on the spurious accounts, is only 1 instance of many].
.
blaming 'outsiders' for internal problems is a classic tactic.
Bombastic rhetoric that the U-S can recreate the glory days of industrial manufacturing is sheer myth-making.
We're never going to be the world's primary producer of steel, as just one example.
Nor will opening our national parks to timber companies "employ thousands" to hand-saw trees, ala' the 1900s in Washington & Oregon... it will be gigantic scissors on caterpillar treads erasing forests, not singing lumberjacks.
And when we've decimated our forests, extracted all the oil, precious metals, natural gas, uranium, etc, in TrumpWorld, with no regulations to force industry to PREVENT environmental catastrophes nor to clean up their messes... What then?
We'll have a filthy country, stripped of its resources, its air, water, & soil irreparably tainted, & the only "people" who will have profited will be the CORPORATIONS -
& their investors.

The rest of us will be robbed of our resources, & living in a heavily polluted, ravaged landscape.
.
.
.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Sorry about that.
> Here are the top five reasons why people voted LEAVE - Your Brexit


OK, I've finally got round to looking at the link.

You've fallen for a pack of lies, you have been duped HM.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...ail&utm_term=0_d384ff744f-28a522bcb1-61147241

Parliament has been sovereign the entire time we've been in the EU but it "hasn't always felt like that," according to the Government's plan for restoring parliamentary sovereignty through Brexit.

Arguments for leaving the EU - from immigration to regulation - rested on the idea that EU membership eroded parliament's sovereignty.

Liam Fox has admitted Britain will replicate EU trade schedules as closely as possible to avoid WTO trouble http://www.politics


----------



## noushka05

Brexit already having a negative effect on businesses. Anything in the Sun, Mail, Express, Telegraph, Times about this??


----------



## noushka05

Local voting figures shed new light on referendum. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Local voting figures shed new light on referendum. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034


Not really _new_ light though. It just says that areas with highly educated young graduates tended to vote remain, implying that us dumb old feckers voted leave because we are too thick to have understood the argument. It's an old premise.

But, correlation is not cause. One might equally conclude that those 'tony' areas of high achievers are full of wealthy elitists who benefit from the status quo. Well us angry auld thickos stuck it to you lot didn't we.

Actually, if you want to really understand the motivations of the working class that the luvvies so like to look down upon, you have to ask how many just voted the opposite way to Cameron. If he really wanted us to remain he would have pubilicly campaigned to leave.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> You've fallen for a pack of lies, you have been duped HM.


Sorry, but I haven't fallen for anything. Didn't you read my previous post (please see below).
Which means these are not my reasons I voted out.I have my own reasons, for doing that, and they are for me to know.
As I have said before, I make my own mind up, and will not be changing it, no matter what you or anyone else says.
I just posted that, because you asked in one of your posts to be reminded of the reasons for people voting out.
I repeat againit doesn't mean that they are my reasons.

Thank you.



Honeys mum said:


> Here are some, please note, this doesn't mean that they are my reasonsfor voting out.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Not really _new_ light though. It just says that areas with highly educated young graduates tended to vote remain, implying that us dumb old feckers voted leave because we are too thick to have understood the argument. It's an old premise.
> 
> But, correlation is not cause. One might equally conclude that those 'tony' areas of high achievers are full of wealthy elitists who benefit from the status quo. Well us angry auld thickos stuck it to you lot didn't we.
> 
> Actually, if you want to really understand the motivations of the working class that the luvvies so like to look down upon, you have to ask how many just voted the opposite way to Cameron. If he really wanted us to remain he would have pubilicly campaigned to leave.


Don't shoot the messenger, I thought it was interesting. I'm poorly educated, working class from a deprived area - & I voted remain.

Cameron is mistrusted and hated round here, tory austerity is having a devastating impact on public services - I dare say many wanted to stick it to him when they voted leave..



Honeys mum said:


> *Sorry, but I haven't fallen for anything*. Didn't you read my previous post (please see below).
> Which means these are not my reasons I voted out.I have my own reasons, for doing that, and they are for me to know.
> As I have said before, I make my own mind up, and will not be changing it, no matter what you or anyone else says.
> I just posted that, because you asked in one of your posts to be reminded of the reasons for people voting out.
> I repeat againit doesn't mean that they are my reasons.
> 
> Thank you.


A lot of your previous posts suggest otherwise.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> A lot of your previous posts suggest otherwise.


Sorry, but I have always stated that I make my own mind up and am not swayed by anything I may read in the papers or what any one else says.
Don't want to appear rude, but there's no winning with you, and we are never going to agree. We are all entitled to our opinion. Yours was to vote remain and mine was to vote leave and I stand by that, and nothing will change my mind. Like wise for you.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Don't shoot the messenger, I thought it was interesting. I'm poorly educated, working class from a deprived area - & I voted remain.


I was being Ironic. Deprived area? I thought you had a country pile in a national park.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Sorry, but I have always stated that I make my own mind up and am not swayed by anything I may read in the papers or what any one else says.
> Don't want to appear rude, but there's no winning with you, and we are never going to agree. We are all entitled to our opinion. Yours was to vote remain and mine was to vote leave and I stand by that, and nothing will change my mind. Like wise for you.


Sorry if I came across abrupt in that post. Of course we're all entitled to our own opinions. I simply meant a lot of the articles you post seem to suggest you believed all the lies we are leaving . Not saying that any of this influenced your decision.



Satori said:


> I was being Ironic. Deprived area? I thought you had a country pile in a national park.


:Hilarious In my dreams maybe. In reality I live in a semi in a pit village with a giant slag heap at the bottom of the street

(I actually take many of your posts as tongue in cheek & you often make me giggle to myself - when maybe I shouldn't lol.)


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> I simply meant a lot of the articles you post seem to suggest you believed all the lies we are leaving . Not saying that any of this


That's O.K., but I have never once said that what I post I believe. I have always said that nothing influences me ,as I alwayslike to make my own mind up


----------



## Dr Pepper

Satori said:


> Not really _new_ light though. It just says that areas with highly educated young graduates tended to vote remain, implying that us dumb old feckers voted leave because we are too thick to have understood the argument. It's an old premise.
> 
> But, correlation is not cause. One might equally conclude that those 'tony' areas of high achievers are full of wealthy elitists who benefit from the status quo. Well us angry auld thickos stuck it to you lot didn't we.


Just because you are a young educated graduate doesn't make you intelligent, what is means is their only live experience is the education system which doesn't encourage free thought and initive. It teaches "this is right, that is wrong". As such all these highly educated youngsters have yet to discover life and reason for themselves. They are the one's who voted without life experience to guide them and probably didn't know what they were voting for.


----------



## Satori

Dr Pepper said:


> Just because you are a young educated graduate doesn't make you intelligent, what is means is their only live experience is the education system which doesn't encourage free thought and initive. It teaches "this is right, that is wrong". As such all these highly educated youngsters have yet to discover life and reason for themselves. They are the one's who voted without life experience to guide them and probably didn't know what they were voting for.


Duh!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> Just because you are a young educated graduate doesn't make you intelligent, what is means is their only live experience is the education system which doesn't encourage free thought and initive. It teaches "this is right, that is wrong". As such all these highly educated youngsters have yet to discover life and reason for themselves. They are the one's who voted without life experience to guide them and probably didn't know what they were voting for.


The old experienced ones would not have to work and live in postBrexit world...
Have pensions already and what happens in ten, twenty years is not their problem...

So double duh!!!


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> The old experienced ones would not have to work and live in postBrexit world...
> Have pensions already and what happens in ten, twenty years is not their problem...
> 
> So double duh!!!


So what's your degree in?

You have a naïve view there. These "old" people will be around for thirty years or more, and unlike the selfish youth who, as you implied, were voting for their own interests, will have been thinking of their children and grandchildren.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> So what's your degree in?
> 
> You have a naïve view there. These "old" people will be around for thirty years or more, and unlike the selfish youth who, as you implied, were voting for their own interests, will have been thinking of their children and grandchildren.


 Only those between 30 and 60 should be voting.
If they have a degree.
No, ASBO does not count. 
Exceptions could be made , for those who received them as a result of UKiP leader election punch up perhaps?

Unless you vote for Green or you are in Scotland.
Then no age limit and no degree required..

By voting Green you proved your wisdom and your foresight already. Scots can do as they please.

To what degree I might have degree is my sweet mystery...


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## rona

Dr Pepper said:


> Just because you are a young educated graduate doesn't make you intelligent, what is means is their only live experience is the education system which doesn't encourage free thought and initive. It teaches "this is right, that is wrong". As such all these highly educated youngsters have yet to discover life and reason for themselves. They are the one's who voted without life experience to guide them and probably didn't know what they were voting for.


I call it brainwashing or programming


----------



## Smuge

Voting to leave the EU was the easiest political decision that I have ever made.


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong I'm embarrassed to say , I dont understand how roaming charges work . Who do you pay the charges to? your own network or to a network in the country you are in. Also , if you use free wifi at the hotel you stay in , would you still have to pay?


----------



## kimthecat

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-mp-compares-hard-brexiteers-9775241

Tory MP has compared Hard Brexit backers to "jihadis" in the middle of a House of Commons debate.

Colleagues visibly winced as ex-minister Claire Perry made the alarming comparison while she discussed triggering Article 50.


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> perhaps not but as he said it in relation to this thread , it *suggests* that all those involved in this thread who voted our are racist.


Love how I don't come on for a few days and I'm being talked about. Haven't caught up but just looking at the last couple of pages thought I'd respond to this. It's strange how when the campaign was condoning racism and nationalism at the expense of facts, people supported leave and didn't argue against those spewing the hatred. These same people cannot provide any rational reasons to leave. The very act of silence encouraged those who are really racist and nationalistic, effectively to them, condoning their opinions. No I don't suggest everyone who voted leave is racist. I do question if people have considered what not speaking out has done to the country. Wouldn't have actually been good for the idea of leaving though would it.

Don't see leavers blaming the government for their stance on immigration at the moment using them as a scapegoat when they have had powers they simply have not used for "EU immigrants". Control has always been possible. May, if anyone should have known that.


----------



## kimthecat

@Goblin , you've been awol !


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> @Goblin , you've been awol !


That's life.. it continues with or without Brexit


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> That's life.. it continues with or without Brexit


 It does indeed. The strangest thing is that Brexit only seems to exist on line and on the news , in real life here, its not really the subject of discussion in the post office or the off licence or on the street, though Trump is ! 
Despite religion or race here , we all being "British " and talking about the weather and moaning about the lack of parking, its not a "Don't mention Brexit " scenario , its just people getting on with their lives.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> It does indeed. The strangest thing is that Brexit only seems to exist on line and on the news , in real life here, its not really the subject of discussion in the post office or the off licence or on the street, though Trump is !
> Despite religion or race here , we all being "British " and talking about the weather and moaning about the lack of parking, its not a "Don't mention Brexit " scenario , its just people getting on with their lives.


Not matter what kids want to eat, we have to go on...even under the cloud...


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong I'm embarrassed to say , I dont understand how roaming charges work . Who do you pay the charges to? your own network or to a network in the country you are in. Also , if you use free wifi at the hotel you stay in , would you still have to pay?


I'm not an expert on the matter but can speak from personal experience.

I was just about to arrive in Amsterdam on the ferry, only to get a text message to say I'd already used up my £7 safety buffer without actually using my phone! This was due to looking for a different Network outside the usual one in the UK. I was flabbergasted to put it mildly and have learned to always switch the mobile data off when travelling abroad.

Come to think of it had it not been for the £7 safety buffer it could have cost a fortune.

The EU have long campaigned to have these roaming charges abolished, so using your phone in, say Italy would cost the same as in the UK.

Now the UK is withdrawing from the EU it will now not be included in this.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> I'm not an expert on the matter but can speak from personal experience.
> 
> I was just about to arrive in Amsterdam on the ferry, only to get a text message to say I'd already used up my £7 safety buffer without actually using my phone! This was due to looking for a different Network outside the usual one in the UK. I was flabbergasted to put it mildly and have learned to always switch the mobile data off when travelling abroad.
> 
> Come to think of it had it not been for the £7 safety buffer it could have cost a fortune.
> 
> The EU have long campaigned to have these roaming charges abolished, so using your phone in, say Italy would cost the same as in the UK.
> 
> Now the UK is withdrawing from the EU it will now not be included in this.


Surely that wasn't a reason to vote remain?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I'm not an expert on the matter but can speak from personal experience.
> 
> I was just about to arrive in Amsterdam on the ferry, only to get a text message to say I'd already used up my £7 safety buffer without actually using my phone! This was due to looking for a different Network outside the usual one in the UK. I was flabbergasted to put it mildly and have learned to always switch the mobile data off when travelling abroad.
> 
> Come to think of it had it not been for the £7 safety buffer it could have cost a fortune.
> 
> The EU have long campaigned to have these roaming charges abolished, so using your phone in, say Italy would cost the same as in the UK.
> 
> Now the UK is withdrawing from the EU it will now not be included in this.


Yes, at the moment everyone pays roaming charges in their base charge, rather than just those that can afford to go gallivanting across Europe. Much fairer


----------



## noushka05

Todays brexit good news.

Brexit risks 30,000 jobs and 17% of bank assets - https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...um=social&cmpid%3D=socialflow-facebook-brexit

An open border with Ireland is not legally possible - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...ally-possible-1.2965198#.WJj1QdmZ1W8.facebook

Brexit already bad for firms - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38878091

French PM says terms of any #*Brexit* deal inferior to full EU membership https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...erior-to-full-eu-membership-bernard-cazeneuve

Brexit vote has 'chilling' effect on start-up investment - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38885167


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Surely that wasn't a reason to vote remain?


No it wasn't, just an example of one of the perks membership of the EU allowed.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Todays brexit good news.
> 
> Brexit risks 30,000 jobs and 17% of bank assets - https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-02-07/brexit-risks-30-000-u-k-jobs-and-17-of-bank-assets-study-says?utm_content=brexit&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid%3D=socialflow-facebook-brexit
> 
> An open border with Ireland is not legally possible - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...ally-possible-1.2965198#.WJj1QdmZ1W8.facebook
> 
> Brexit already bad for firms - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38878091
> 
> French PM says terms of any #*Brexit* deal inferior to full EU membership https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...erior-to-full-eu-membership-bernard-cazeneuve
> 
> Brexit vote has 'chilling' effect on start-up investment - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38885167


Just acorns.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Todays brexit good news.
> 
> Brexit risks 30,000 jobs and 17% of bank assets - https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-02-07/brexit-risks-30-000-u-k-jobs-and-17-of-bank-assets-study-says?utm_content=brexit&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid%3D=socialflow-facebook-brexit
> 
> An open border with Ireland is not legally possible - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...ally-possible-1.2965198#.WJj1QdmZ1W8.facebook
> 
> *Brexit already bad for firms - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38878091*
> 
> French PM says terms of any #*Brexit* deal inferior to full EU membership https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...erior-to-full-eu-membership-bernard-cazeneuve
> 
> Brexit vote has 'chilling' effect on start-up investment - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38885167


This is an interesting claim. My little business had its second best December since I started up about 12 years ago and I have had my busiest January in that period. 

What's interesting is the companies putting the blame on Brexit - just like Jamie Oliver closing six of his overpriced and pretentious restaurants. The truth is rather different. 

The claim: Jamie Oliver to close six restaurants in 'tough market' after Brexit vote

The truth: This is why Jamie Oliver's restaurant chain failed in Tunbridge Wells says top town restaurateur


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> This is an interesting claim. My little business had its second best December since I started up about 12 years ago and I have had my busiest January in that period.
> 
> What's interesting is the companies putting the blame on Brexit - just like Jamie Oliver closing six of his overpriced and pretentious restaurants. The truth is rather different.
> 
> The claim: Jamie Oliver to close six restaurants in 'tough market' after Brexit vote
> 
> The truth: This is why Jamie Oliver's restaurant chain failed in Tunbridge Wells says top town restaurateur


Good for you.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Good for you.


Aww, thank you. I was stating facts. I know you like facts.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Aww, thank you. I was stating facts. I know you like facts.


You're welcome 

This is terrifying, don't you think? Government is clearly planning a bonfire of health and legal protections for public health and the environment.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Yes, at the moment everyone pays roaming charges in their base charge, rather than just those that can afford to go gallivanting across Europe. Much fairer


Well you're entitled to support mobile phone companies profiteering from implementing roaming charges and believe people should face the same charges in the Irish Republic as it would cost to use in the U.S. or Australia.

It is NOT fair for those, like myself who travel within the EU. Abolition of roaming charges across the EU would have been very welcome. England and Wales didn't want it apparently.......


----------



## Creativecat

Shock horror 
Teresa can't garuntee tht EU nationals will be assured citizenship in the uk. We better Batton dwn the hatches I guess for a million mark protest petition on its way


----------



## KittenKong

Creativecat said:


> Shock horror
> Teresa can't garuntee tht EU nationals will be assured citizenship in the uk. We better Batton dwn the hatches I guess for a million mark protest petition on its way


Not shocked at all, I expected that.

We all must appreciate UK citizens living in the EU face an uncertain future too.

Free movement works both ways.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> Surely that wasn't a reason to vote remain?


Straight bananas!!!
Crooked cucumbers...


----------



## leashedForLife

.
roaming charges can be 3 to 10X the usual at-home co$ts, & data charges may be even higher -
now that our mobiles do so much more than "just" make phone calls, zapping Ur wallet for data-use is an easy way to milk consumers.
As KK noted, shutting off the phone is essential to prevent sneak charges accumulating, or adjust *all* the settings on e-mail, calendar updates, etc, so that U ask for updates, vs get a running stream of 'news' 24/7.
.
using a local hotspot / WiFi may or may not elude roaming charges, it depends on Ur carrier's policies & the fine print in that user's agreement.
But it's certainly worth trying.

.
buying a throwaway cell-phone for use on the Continent & then donating it to a nonprofit [mobiles for ppl in domestic abuse situations, or for distribution to the homeless, etc] is another way of skipping the roaming robbery.
Use Ur personal phone for photos, etc, use the disposable one for data & voice calls, texting, & so on.
.
.
.


----------



## DoodlesRule

I can't see any point to this "debate" really, its clearly going to happen so its just whining/moaning, going over & over the same ground achieves nothing!

I see in the news that the Greek economy is about to topple over a cliff (read it in Guardian which is very pro-remain before anyone asks). How do the remainers square the position in Greece with the claim that being a part of the EU is the best thing since sliced bread? If it happens then the ultimate outcome is that the whole EU project falls apart so aren't we better of out anyway.

_Just throwing this into the pot to give us a break and talk about something new _


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> I can't see any point to this "debate" really, its clearly going to happen so its just whining/moaning, going over & over the same ground achieves nothing!
> 
> I see in the news that the Greek economy is about to topple over a cliff (read it in Guardian which is very pro-remain before anyone asks). How do the remainers square the position in Greece with the claim that being a part of the EU is the best thing since sliced bread? If it happens then the ultimate outcome is that the whole EU project falls apart so aren't we better of out anyway.
> 
> _Just throwing this into the pot to give us a break and talk about something new _


Ignoring the UK for the moment would you be pleased to see Europe fragmented, frequently at war with each other and at the mercy of Russia to the East and (Trump's) US to the West again?

You might be pleased the UK is leaving and become dependent on Trump, but unfair to wish the complete demise on the EU for those that want part of it.

For what you call whining/moaning is a great concern for many.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Ignoring the UK for the moment would you be pleased to see Europe fragmented, frequently at war with each other and at the mercy of Russia to the East and Trump's US to the West again?
> 
> You might be pleased the UK is leaving but unwise to wish the complete demise on the EU for those that want part of it.


NATO and the UN are the reason for world peace as we know it  as a body the EU is irrelevant. So that argument falls flat on it's face from the off. The EU was only ever started as a trading community.


----------



## Goblin

DoodlesRule said:


> How do the remainers square the position in Greece with the claim that being a part of the EU is the best thing since sliced bread?


Who has said that? What people have said is their are more positives from being in the EU than going off on our own. Especially when what was promised by the leave campaign was simply scapegoating others rather than laying the fault at the government's feet (multiple ones). That's the thing about the EU, governments can screw up as they retain soveriegnty. Thing about being a member of a club is you can change it from inside.



Dr Pepper said:


> NATO and the UN are the reason for world peace as we know it  as a body the EU is irrelevant. So that argument falls flat on it's face from the off. The EU was only ever started as a trading community.


More to world peace than simply organisations forcing it. It's about the spirit of cooperation and tolerance. You know, things the referendum result stuck up it's finger to.


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> Ignoring the UK for the moment would you be pleased to see Europe fragmented, frequently at war with each other and at the mercy of Russia to the East and (Trump's) US to the West again?
> 
> You might be pleased the UK is leaving and become dependent on Trump, but unfair to wish the complete demise on the EU for those that want part of it.
> 
> For what you call whining/moaning is a great concern for many.


Did I say that? No I would not actually, but had the respective governments and the EU powers actually listened to peoples concerns and reformed no one would be in this position. Maybe they will be pushed into reform and it will improve the lot of some of the other countries.

Also if they not been hell bent on expanding to 28, bringing in countries with completely disparate economies and the EURO which is a disaster for the poorer countries again the position would probably be very different.

Nato deals with peace not the EU.

I class going on about roaming mobile charges as whining/moaning .. the vast majority of people in this country have more pressing issues, if thats all you have to worry about you are in a very lucky position!


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> NATO and the UN are the reason for world peace as we know it  as a body the EU is irrelevant. So that argument falls flat on it's face from the off. The EU was only ever started as a trading community.


Sir Winston Churchill (and history in general) would disagree with you on all points.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Jesthar said:


> Sir Winston Churchill (and history in general) would disagree with you on all points.


Didn't he also have rather strong views on Muslims than is generally acceptable today?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> Sir Winston Churchill (and history in general) would disagree with you on all points.


Would you care to expand on that. Churchill's invisaged United States of Europe was never as it is today.

Beyond that I think NATO speaks for itself as was formed some ten years or so before the EEC and thirty odd before we joined. All evidence points to NATO bring world peace, not one continent holding hands to sell their goods to each other.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Goblin said:


> Who has said that? What people have said is their are more positives from being in the EU than going off on our own. Especially when what was promised by the leave campaign was simply scapegoating others rather than laying the fault at the government's feet (multiple ones). That's the thing about the EU, governments can screw up as they retain soveriegnty. Thing about being a member of a club is you can change it from inside.
> 
> More to world peace than simply organisations forcing it. It's about the spirit of cooperation and tolerance. You know, things the referendum result stuck up it's finger to.


David Camerons so called reforms made him a laughing stock, proved there was no chance of changing things from the inside. The EU called his bluff, he called the UKs bluff and we are where we are today

There is also the argument that the EU has damaged world peace by riling Russia and caused a lot of unrest in may countries with mass migration


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> NATO and the UN are the reason for world peace as we know it  as a body the EU is irrelevant. So that argument falls flat on it's face from the off. The EU was only ever started as a trading community.


Yes Nato and the UN have contributed to peace, as has the EU. To say the EU have nothing to do with that is bulls**t.

Now Trump is on about disbanding Nato.......


----------



## Goblin

DoodlesRule said:


> David Camerons so called reforms made him a laughing stock, proved there was no chance of changing things from the inside. The EU called his bluff, he called the UKs bluff and we are where we are today


More to changing something than giving an ultimatum and saying we want or else. EU immigration, plenty of control was built into the system which the government never actually used so going and pushing for more controls... Once again government was pushing something for short term personal political gain as opposed to looking at achieving something long term. Reminds me of the whole brexit and May situation.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> but unfair to wish the complete demise on the EU for those that want part of it.


I didn't see that written. Your odd way at looking at things again?


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> Yes Nato and the UN have contributed to peace, as has the EU. To say the EU have nothing to do with that is bulls**t.
> 
> Now Trump is on about disbanding Nato.......


I am not a fan but has he actually said that? The articles I read said he was no longer willing to bankroll NATO and the EU countries needed to start paying their proper share which seems like a fair comment.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> NATO and the UN are the reason for world peace as we know it  as a body the EU is irrelevant. So that argument falls flat on it's face from the off. The EU was only ever started as a trading community.


I think you need to check your history.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
Churchill also despised Mahatma Ghandi & called him "a dirty ******" clothed in rags - his loincloth of hand-loomed fabric, made & worn to protest the British stranglehold on textiles, a built-in monoply that devastated India's economy.
.
should we join Sir Piggy in despising India's citizens, today?...
I have vast respect for Churchill as a British leader in wartime & as a diplomat in peacetime, but his racist & class-based bigotry do NOT deserve admiration - or emulation, 'IMO.
.
"The war was won on the playing-fields of Eton..." may be grand sentiment, but the lower classes also enlisted & despite a distinct lack of cricket at school, they strove & died just as valiantly as anyone with a School tie.
They just didn't get a showy mausoleum or a lengthy obit in the Times, post mortem.
.
For that matter, the Ghurka soldiers were the backbone of the Indian Army during the Raj, & were famous worldwide for their discipline & heroism - which wasn't "installed" by British officers.
Sir Piggy was a great statesman & orator - he was a good father & husband, also a drunk & a bigot.
That particular hero had not merely feet of clay, his personal foibles brought the clay-level somewhere about his groin, maybe even his waist.
He was brilliant in some ways, all to humanly flawed in others.
.
I certainly *hope* we've outgrown his bigoted prejudices.
.
.
.


----------



## Jesthar

DoodlesRule said:


> Didn't he also have rather strong views on Muslims than is generally acceptable today?


Times and attitudes change, though. You could apply the same reasoning to many historic prejudices along lines or religion, skin tone, class, gender etc. No-one is saying anyone is perfect, and Churchill most definitely had plenty of flaws. But it would also be wrong to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 



Dr Pepper said:


> Would you care to expand on that. Churchill's invisaged United States of Europe was never as it is today.
> 
> Beyond that I think NATO speaks for itself as was formed some ten years or so before the EEC and thirty odd before we joined. All evidence points to NATO bring world peace, not one continent holding hands to sell their goods to each other.


Visions of the future are rarely exactly as expected. Just watch some 60s or 70s SciFi...  However, before the war, Churchill was pretty much an British isolationist. Afterwards, however, he was instrumental in calling for a united Europe, particularly through integrated trade. His reasoning was that nations that _depended _on each other in trade to prosper wouldn't want to start another massive war.

Whether you think NATO (which the UK has been part of from inception, incidentally - the first NATO Secretary General was British) or what ended up becoming the EU is responsible, though, the result of working together has been one of the longest periods of general European peace. Personally, I'd say there is probably a balance of the two, but that interdependence of trade has been the most important in getting Europe working together rather than against each other.


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> I class going on about roaming mobile charges as whining/moaning .. the vast majority of people in this country have more pressing issues, if thats all you have to worry about you are in a very lucky position!


If this post was an attempt at winding me up you haven't succeeded so you might as well give up now.

I never suggested you voted leave because of straight bananas so don't assume I voted remain just for the planned abolition of mobile phone roaming charges within the EU. I can't believe you believe I voted remain just for that!

If you bothered to read my earlier posts there's a damn sight more things to worry about. I reported the phone roaming charges as an example, not a be all or end all.

The same can be said of the proposed minimum alcohol pricing. Nicola Sturgeon supports that while I'm dead against it as an example.

It doesn't stop me supporting her as there's much more important issues to be concerned about.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> Personally, I'd say there is probably a balance of the two, but that interdependence of trade has been the most important in getting Europe working together rather than against each other.


Fair enough, but personally I'd say NATO has influenced peace in Europe (for probably the first time) rather than a fragile trade agreement.


----------



## noushka05

Spoilt for choice which thread to post this on lol

So funny:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

.


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


>


Mark my word, we'll be sat with Greece, Portugal & Ireland soon


----------



## samuelsmiles

Price Waterhouse Coopers (experts) are predicting a very bright future for the UK economy. Hopefully all the money will be spent wisely. 

Please be aware that the link below contains a sea of Union Jacks that some may find upsetting.

*Top of the world: Britain to outpace G7 for 'next three decades'*


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Mark my word, we'll be sat with Greece, Portugal & Ireland soon


. How did you do that ? I thought I deleted that one !

We'll be in good company though , 

ETA we were on line at the same time and you replied while I was posting the next one . 
you don't hang about !


----------



## kimthecat

samuelsmiles said:


> Please be aware that the link below contains a sea of Union Jacks that some may find upsetting.


< chortle >


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Spoilt for choice which thread to post this on lol
> 
> So funny:Hilarious


Oh, he'll answer...


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Price Waterhouse Coopers (experts) are predicting a very bright future for the UK economy. Hopefully all the money will be spent wisely. ]


Wow! How exciting. Thought the UK was going through a period of austerity.

More fly the flag land of hope and glory rubbish.

What I'd expect to read in a pro Brexit paper. I can't speak for PWC but not all "experts" are against Brexit.

No actual evidence this is due to Brexit either.

Nothing promised for the NHS though, nor re-assurance for EU nationals and vice versa.










http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...amendment-to-eu-withdrawal-bill-a7570336.html


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> Price Waterhouse Coopers (experts) are predicting a very bright future for the UK economy. Hopefully all the money will be spent wisely.


Oh look, report says Brexit will cause drag on the forecast. What would the position be within the EU? Once again, nothing to do with advantages of brexit. Report is stating situation despite brexit.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Jesthar said:


> Times and attitudes change, though. You could apply the same reasoning to many historic prejudices along lines or religion, skin tone, class, gender etc. No-one is saying anyone is perfect, and Churchill most definitely had plenty of flaws. But it would also be wrong to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
> 
> Visions of the future are rarely exactly as expected. Just watch some 60s or 70s SciFi...  However, before the war, Churchill was pretty much an British isolationist. Afterwards, however, he was instrumental in calling for a united Europe, particularly through integrated trade. His reasoning was that nations that _depended _on each other in trade to prosper wouldn't want to start another massive war.
> 
> Whether you think NATO (which the UK has been part of from inception, incidentally - the first NATO Secretary General was British) or what ended up becoming the EU is responsible, though, the result of working together has been one of the longest periods of general European peace. Personally, I'd say there is probably a balance of the two, but that interdependence of trade has been the most important in getting Europe working together rather than against each other.


in other words cherry pick, to be cited when suits your agenda, swept under the carpet ignored when it doesn't



KittenKong said:


> If this post was an attempt at winding me up you haven't succeeded so you might as well give up now.
> 
> I never suggested you voted leave because of straight bananas so don't assume I voted remain just for the planned abolition of mobile phone roaming charges within the EU. I can't believe you believe I voted remain just for that!
> 
> If you bothered to read my earlier posts there's a damn sight more things to worry about. I reported the phone roaming charges as an example, not a be all or end all.
> 
> The same can be said of the proposed minimum alcohol pricing. Nicola Sturgeon supports that while I'm dead against it as an example.
> 
> It doesn't stop me supporting her as there's much more important issues to be concerned about.


why would i have any wish to wind you up, I don't know you, have no idea if it would be worth such an effort, don't do playground anyway & why have you brought bananas & sturgeon into it, totally bizzare! You seem to read things then make a random translation to fit your agenda, then meander off into nothing at all to do with the post you're supposedly responding to.
Did I talk about bananas, did I talk about sturgeon - no. Did you say how important mobile roaming charges are - I believe so, could be wrong but even if so it was a generic reply not directed at you personally.

Cheeky has said something's opposite to my experience of leave voters, particularly the elderly (my dad is in his 80's, very wise & didn't vote because he felt it was wrong as wouldn't affect him for long) I didn't post because she is genuinely distraught and I can fully understand the impact leave could have in her circumstances. You however jump to weird conclusions & do indeed like to wind up/try to insult those who don't agree with you. Why is that, weak selfish point of view maybe


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> in other words cherry pick, to be cited when suits your agenda, swept under the carpet ignored when it doesn't
> 
> why would i have any wish to wind you up, I don't know you, have no idea if it would be worth such an effort, don't do playground anyway & why have you brought bananas & sturgeon into it, totally bizzare! You seem to read things then make a random translation to fit your agenda, then meander off into nothing at all to do with the post you're supposedly responding to.
> Did I talk about bananas, did I talk about sturgeon - no. Did you say how important mobile roaming charges are - I believe so, could be wrong but even if so it was a generic reply not directed at you personally.
> 
> Cheeky has said something's opposite to my experience of leave voters, particularly the elderly (my dad is in his 80's, very wise & didn't vote because he felt it was wrong as wouldn't affect him for long) I didn't post because she is genuinely distraught and I can fully understand the impact leave could have in her circumstances. You however jump to weird conclusions & do indeed like to wind up/try to insult those who don't agree with you. Why is that, weak selfish point of view maybe


Oh dear, plenty of crossed wires there I think!

I accept it wasn't an attempt to wind me up, it certainly wasn't my intention to wind you or anyone else up either.

I mentioned the banana example in response to you suggesting I voted remain only due to the roaming charges issue. I merely pointed out there's far more important issues to consider.

I brought Nicola Sturgeon into it as another example. I pointed out I'm against the minimum pricing on alcohol issue I know she is pushing for. I support her for her admirable efforts elsewhere and would be stupid of me to withdraw my support over a comparatively minor issue.

Hope that makes sense.

With kind regards.


----------



## MollySmith

samuelsmiles said:


> Price Waterhouse Coopers (experts) are predicting a very bright future for the UK economy. Hopefully all the money will be spent wisely.
> 
> Please be aware that the link below contains a sea of Union Jacks that some may find upsetting.
> 
> *Top of the world: Britain to outpace G7 for 'next three decades'*


What is a flexible economy?


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear, plenty of crossed wires there I think!
> 
> I accept it wasn't an attempt to wind me up, it certainly wasn't my intention to wind you or anyone else up either.
> 
> I mentioned the banana example in response to you suggesting I voted remain only due to the roaming charges issue. I merely pointed out there's far more important issues to consider.
> 
> I brought Nicola Sturgeon into it as another example. I pointed out I'm against the minimum pricing on alcohol issue I know she is pushing for. I support her for her admirable efforts elsewhere and would be stupid of me to withdraw my support over a comparatively minor issue.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.
> 
> With kind regards.


I didn't actually suggest that's why you voted remain but accept the truce ☺ life is too short I'm a live & let live, make the best of it person!

Moving on - ketchup in or out?


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> What is a flexible economy?


One in which companies can turn resources on and off quickly according to demand signals, aided by hordes of happy workers not tied down by the drudgery of long term employment and predictable hours.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Thought the UK was going through a period of austerity.


Well you thought wrong.


----------



## Smuge

Brexit passes through the Commons. A great day.

If unelected Lords dare to oppose the will of the people? Abolish that pointless chamber full of toffs and cronies once and for all. In fact, if it does pass Brexit? Celebrate the new political order by abolishing the Lords!


----------



## MollySmith

Satori said:


> One in which companies can turn resources on and off quickly according to demand signals, aided by hordes of happy workers not tied down by the drudgery of long term employment and predictable hours.


Ah like this then - same news, different view. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...economy-pwc-thinks-will-do-fine-a7567206.html


----------



## samuelsmiles

MollySmith said:


> Ah like this then - same news, different view.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...economy-pwc-thinks-will-do-fine-a7567206.html


Absolutely. Some take a positive view and others negative.


----------



## MollySmith

samuelsmiles said:


> Absolutely. Some take a positive view and others negative.


Or maybe realistic  All the reports I've read and in checking with a friend who is very senior in PWC, this news still come with warning bells as it's based on best outcome on trade deals yet to even been negotiated. Like all news, this has been released for a reason right now and it doesn't take a genius to work out why. It's already been mentioned on this thread today.


----------



## kimthecat

Someone's happy !

*Amandeep SinghBhogal* ‏@*AmandeepBhogal*  21m21 minutes ago

Momentous vote MPs back #*Article50* 494 to 122 thumping majority of 372. We are taking back control#*GlobalBritain* will be truly great again!


----------



## Smuge

MollySmith said:


> Or maybe realistic  All the reports I've read and in checking with a friend who is very senior in PWC, this news still come with warning bells as it's based on best outcome on trade deals yet to even been negotiated. Like all news, this has been released for a reason right now and it doesn't take a genius to work out why. It's already been mentioned on this thread today.


PWC dont know what is happening tomorrow morning never mind the distant future


----------



## samuelsmiles

> All the reports I've read and in checking with a friend who is very senior in PWC, this news still come with warning bells as it's based on best outcome on trade deals yet to even been negotiated. Like all news, this has been released for a reason right now and it doesn't take a genius to work out why. It's already been mentioned on this thread today.


Well, I'm neither a genius nor have so many friends in so many senior positions as you, so wouldn't dare speculate.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> . How did you do that ? I thought I deleted that one !
> 
> We'll be in good company though ,
> 
> ETA we were on line at the same time and you replied while I was posting the next one .
> you don't hang about !


I'm like greased lightening



Satori said:


> Oh, he'll answer...
> 
> View attachment 299980


:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Wow! How exciting. Thought the UK was going through a period of austerity.
> 
> More fly the flag land of hope and glory rubbish.
> 
> What I'd expect to read in a pro Brexit paper. I can't speak for PWC but not all "experts" are against Brexit.
> 
> No actual evidence this is due to Brexit either.
> 
> Nothing promised for the NHS though, nor re-assurance for EU nationals and vice versa.
> 
> View attachment 299983
> 
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...amendment-to-eu-withdrawal-bill-a7570336.html


Says it all doesn't it? A bunch of con-men (&women). They've sold us down the river.

The referendum was "won" with a pack of lies. There is no reason to go ahead with brexit. There are many good reasons to stay in the EU.


----------



## noushka05

Brexit will be 'four times worse for the UK economy than previously thought' http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...conomists-john-van-reenen-trade-a7570016.html


----------



## noushka05

Brexit is a victory for Russia (surprise, surprise)

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/30/brexit-is-a-russian-victory/


----------



## noushka05

Another shocker That bastion of honesty, Boris Johnson voted *against* Chuka Umunna's amendment to give the NHS an extra £350m a week after Brexit.

I'll just leave this here.


----------



## noushka05

My god don't tell me we're going to start deporting people? Jeezus.

MPs vote by 332 to 290, defeating bid to guarantee EU citizens' rights in Brexit bill.


----------



## Honeys mum

Brexit vote: what happens now, will House of Lords change Bill and when will Article 50 be triggered?


----------



## samuelsmiles

The beauty of our democracy is that our Government has listened to the will of the majority in this instance. Only time will tell if _we _have made the right decision. Now it has to do things correctly for the benefit of _everybody _already living here legally.

The beauty of our democracy allows us to vote them out of office if they start to make a right old horlicks out of it.

I'm comfortable with that.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> The beauty of our democracy is that our Government has listened to the will of the majority in this instance. Only time will tell if _we _have made the right decision. Now it has to do things correctly for the benefit of _everybody _already living here legally.
> 
> The beauty of our democracy allows us to vote them out of office if they start to make a right old horlicks out of it.
> 
> I'm comfortable with that.


No it hasnt listened to the will of the people. Not everyone who voted leave voted for this extreme brexit we've had foisted upon us. With the right wing media pumping out their propaganda combined with the fact they've been busy gerrymandering we'll be lucky if we ever get them out of power. The NHS is finished.


----------



## Honeys mum

Labour in crisis as Clive Lewis quits shadow cabinet and more than 50 MPs vote against triggering formal Brexit negotiations

Clive Lewis resignation prompts rumours of a leadership race as Jeremy Corbyn is mocked over claim 'real fight starts now'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...wis-quits-shadow-cabinet-50-mps-vote-against/

Yet another crisis for J.C., how many more can he survive.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> No it hasnt listened to the will of the people. Not everyone who voted leave voted for this extreme brexit we've had foisted upon us. With the right wing media pumping out their propaganda combined with the fact they've been busy gerrymandering we'll be lucky if we ever get them out of power. The NHS is finished.


Well, let them rejoice at the moment. They're flying the flag and getting their country back! Isn't it wonderful!

I wonder how many will still see it this way after the full effect of Brexit takes hold?

No one can say they haven't been warned.

Nicola Sturgeon, spot on as always:









Don't forget the "Will of the people"









Ignore the will of the people at your peril.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Well, let them rejoice at the moment. They're flying the flag and getting their country back! Isn't it wonderful!
> 
> I wonder how many will still see it this way after the full effect of Brexit takes hold?
> 
> Nicola Sturgeon, spot on as always:
> View attachment 300006
> 
> 
> Don't forget the "Will of the people"
> View attachment 300007


I noticed at the final vote last night the majority of SNP MP's abstained from voting and instead sang ode to joy the EU anthem before being told off by the speaker of the house. The situation was handled very well by the speaker of the house.


----------



## noushka05

@KittenKong Scotland will break away at the first opportunity.

English people are helping them by joining the SNP. I would if I weren't a loyal member of the Green Party.

*The SNPVerified account* ‏@theSNP  22h22 hours ago
The Tories think they can do whatever they want to Scotland and get away with it. They're wrong. Join the *SNP* today: https://members.snp.org/#/join


----------



## noushka05

This is brilliant -


----------



## MollySmith

The will of the people is hardly a representation of the EU vote.

Remain 16,141,241 (48.1%)

Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)

http://www.electoralcommission.org....u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

Last night's vote was pretty much what everyone expected but the reason the vote took place and was challenged is because of the above result was so close. Historically when there is a close call there can be a revolution and in many ways this process of parliamentary voting was the revolution and so it should be.

There is this view that's prevalent on this thread and in parts of the media that the result is leave and anyone who protests is a sore loser and should put up and shut up. But challenging outcomes is what should be - it encourages thought, debate, education and occasionally compromise and the formation of new social values.

I can't see that here to be honest, 251 pages on and it's the same cliques liking the same posts probably without actually reading the content because the camps are so divided is how it appears to me.

It's incredible to think this was in June and how short some people's memories are.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I want to know why it takes 12 days for the bill to be passed to the House of Lords? If it was me I'd go and hand deliver it to them today to speed the process up


----------



## KittenKong

MollySmith said:


> The will of the people is hardly a representation of the EU vote.
> 
> Remain 16,141,241 (48.1%)
> 
> Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)
> 
> http://www.electoralcommission.org....u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information
> 
> Last night's vote was pretty much what everyone expected but the reason the vote took place and was challenged is because of the above result was so close. Historically when there is a close call there can be a revolution and in many ways this process of parliamentary voting was the revolution and so it should be.
> 
> There is this view that's prevalent on this thread and in parts of the media that the result is leave and anyone who protests is a sore loser and should put up and shut up. But challenging outcomes is what should be - it encourages thought, debate, education and occasionally compromise and the formation of new social values.
> 
> I can't see that here to be honest, 251 pages on and it's the same cliques liking the same posts probably without actually reading the content because the camps are so divided is how it appears to me.
> 
> It's incredible to think this was in June and how short some people's memories are.


Sabre's own post referendum thread, "Brexit, what now" is up to 209 pages. I never got round to seeing the pre referendum one.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36226&start=4160

Goes to show how high the feelings are on the matter.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> I'm like greased lightening
> :Hilarious



Go grease lightning, you're burning up the quarter mile !


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted- duplicate post.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> The beauty of our democracy is that our Government has listened to the will of the majority in this instance. Only time will tell if _we _have made the right decision. Now it has to do things correctly for the benefit of _everybody _already living here legally.
> 
> The beauty of our democracy allows us to vote them out of office if they start to make a right old horlicks out of it.
> 
> I'm comfortable with that.


This is not quite true. This form of Brexit is the will of Farage and the far right of the Tory party now in government. It will have its supporters I'm sure but I doubt the entire 52% who voted leave will be in favour.

While you rejoice and wave the flag spare a thought for the EU citizens who've made the UK their home and vice versa. It's absolutely devastating for them to learn they are no longer wanted by so many and could face deportation despite having contributed to society through work and paying taxes.

Should this be the result, and don't say it won't be because no one yet knows for sure, myself included, the UK will develop a reputation of hating foreigners which could seriously affect tourism.

The age old trick of blaming immigration and minorities for the countries woes.

How many immigrants lived in the UK during the Great Depression in the 1930s?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

The will of the people


----------



## 1290423

I still cant wait for this day


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> The will of the people
> View attachment 300031


Im with stockwell


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> EU citizens who've made the UK their home and vice versa. It's absolutely devastating for them to learn they are no longer wanted by so many and could face deportation despite having contributed to society through work and paying taxes.


All 3.6 million EU nationals 'can stay in the UK after Brexit' | The Independent


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> While you rejoice and wave the flag spare a thought for the EU citizens who've made the UK their home and vice versa. It's absolutely devastating for them to learn they are no longer wanted by so many and could face deportation despite having contributed to society through work and paying taxes.


What a lot of propaganda tosh


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Sabre's own post referendum thread, "Brexit, what now" is up to 209 pages. I never got round to seeing the pre referendum one.
> 
> http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36226&start=4160
> 
> Goes to show how high the feelings are on the matter.


 What is Sabre ? you have to register and log in first before you can read the posts .


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> What a lot of propaganda tosh


I would say exactly the same about this!


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> What is Sabre ? you have to register and log in first before you can read the posts .


I didn't realise you had to register before reading their posts.

This is about them anyway:


----------



## kimthecat

Thanks @KittenKong


----------



## MollySmith

DT said:


> I still cant wait for this day


that sums up how much lack of knowledge exists around Brexit. This image would have been taken in 1977 or possibly the Golden Jubilee when we were part of the EU, as we currently are ... how can you wish for something to return when it wasn't actually present at the time?


----------



## stockwellcat.

MollySmith said:


> that sums up how much lack of knowledge exists around Brexit. This image would have been taken in 1977 or possibly the Golden Jubilee when we were part of the EU, as we currently are ... how can you wish for something to return when it wasn't actually present at the time?


Here's a few UK street parties in 1970


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I would say exactly the same about this!
> View attachment 300033


So would I. You don't have to stoop to the lowest common denominator you know


----------



## stuaz

stockwellcat said:


> So I can't wait to have these on Independence day.


@stockwellcat I really respect your posts and the debates you have but I do have to bring you up on this bit.

The UK is an independent country now (In the EU) and will be one after we leave the EU. I think the whole talk of "independence day" just devalues the other important points you make.

Just my two cents anyway.


----------



## KittenKong

Agree wholeheartedly. It's ironic the UK will become less independent when it leaves the EU as the country becomes more dependent on the US and do what Mr Trump wants, or else.

Not forgetting a certain media tycoon who can make or break you who isn't even British. Pretty ironic do you think?

If people think the UK will stand united to celebrate the Farage labelled "Independence Day" they'll be very much mistaken.

It's not the same as a Jubilee or Royal Wedding so don't expect everyone to turn up at your street parties.

Come to think of it the EU never threatened to ban Royal related street parties!!!

Some may recall the EU flag waving during the Proms last year.

That's what I call solidarity. It made me feel proud.....


----------



## 1290423

MollySmith said:


> that sums up how much lack of knowledge exists around Brexit. This image would have been taken in 1977 or possibly the Golden Jubilee when we were part of the EU, as we currently are ... how can you wish for something to return when it wasn't actually present at the time?


Yep, I know, think it were a wedding actually! The prominence of being proud of being British was my point! I don't SEE ANY EU flags flying there!


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Here's a few UK street parties in 1970
> View attachment 300040
> 
> View attachment 300042
> 
> View attachment 300043
> 
> View attachment 300044


Keep em coming Stockwell, we might get them in the party mood


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Keep em coming Stockwell, we might get them in the party mood


From what I have read, UK people love a good old street party from time to time and it's nothing to do with celebrating royal events or royal weddings


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> From what I have read, UK people love a good old street party from time to time and it's nothing to do with celebrating royal events or royal weddings


Depends Stockwell, think we've more chance of seeing this then getting some of these in the party mood!


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## noushka05




----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 300047
> 
> View attachment 300049


Shall we run a book on the chances of getting em in the part mood Stockwell?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Shall we run a book on the chances of getting em in the part mood Stockwell?


Noush clearly isn't in party mood


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Noush clearly isn't in party mood


No she isnt

lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

I just got a question.
This guy clearly doesn't want to leave the EU but where's he going to go because the UK is


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> No she isnt
> 
> lol


Is this more you noushy noo my Ickle soup lady xxx


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> I just got a question.
> This guy clearly doesn't want to leave the EU but where's he going to go because the UK is
> View attachment 300052


I'll ply you with soup if your a good girl and come to the party x


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> I'll ply you with soup if your a good girl and come to the party x


As lovely as it is, I'd rather starve


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> As lovely as it is, I'd rather starve


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May's finger is noe hovering over this button ^^


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> As lovely as it is, I'd rather starve





noushka05 said:


> As lovely as it is, I'd rather starve


you sure I can't tempt you, noushy noushy nu nu, with a cherry on the top.
My friends will pick you up


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> From what I have read, UK people love a good old street party from time to time and it's nothing to do with celebrating royal events or royal weddings


I personally wouldn't go to a street party as I'm not a royalist.
Yes, some people do like street parties but don't expect many supporters of one to celebrate Brexit.


stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 300059


If Brexit turns out to be a disaster and ruins the lives of future generations this image could well be appropriate.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

This thread has taken a rather childish turn!  And I wasn't even involved lol.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> If Brexit turns out to be a disaster and ruins the lives of future generations this image could well be appropriate.


Well the Government are doing there best to ensure that it isn't a disaster, future generations won't know what it would have been like to live in the EU, it will be taught at schools in history lessons like the first and second world wars and Egyptians etc.

I don't have a crystal ball or time machine (although so called experts claim that they can see into the future) I believe this is the best decision to have ever been made in the last 42+ years. Time will tell though.


----------



## 1290423

Ceiling Kitty said:


> This thread has taken a rather childish turn!  And I wasn't even involved lol.


Opps sorry! I have a birthday coming up on Monday , one I'd rather forget X
So thought I'd better act my shoe size rather then my age X


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Ceiling Kitty

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 300066


Are there any statistics on the political leanings of leave vs remain voters? One would suspect that more right wingers voted leave and left wingers voted remain, but I'd be interested to know.

Yes I could look this up myself but I've things to do and just wondered if anyone has the information to hand.


----------



## KittenKong

Historically the left wing Labour party of the early '80s backed the UK leaving the EEC. Ironically leaving the EEC or having a referendum wasn't on the agenda with the Thatcher led Tories of the period.

Far right groups like the National Front supported getting Britain out of the Common Market in the '70s.

Then the Militant tendency also backed, "withdrawal from the Capitalist EEC and support the forming of a Socialist United States of Europe".

It tends to be a far right or far left issue. 

The referendum was certainly led by the far right, Farage and his disciples.........


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Historically the left wing Labour party of the early '80s backed the UK leaving the EEC. Ironically leaving the EEC or having a referendum wasn't on the agenda with the Thatcher led Tories of the period.
> 
> Far right groups like the National Front supported getting Britain out of the Common Market in the '70s.
> 
> Then the Militant tendency also backed, "withdrawal from the Capitalist EEC and support the forming of a Socialist United States of Europe".
> 
> It tends to be a far right or far left issue.
> 
> The referendum was certainly led by the far right, Farage and his disciples.........


Funnily Corbyn elected to be party leader by votes of left wing pro Remain mostly voters decided to join the right of right and tries to pull his party between Tory and UKiP...

I know that some EU countries quite lavishly celebrate their National Day...but being in EUbdoes not dampen their spirit?

Gibraltar celebrates famously being Gibraltarians and British?

From morning to dawn next day...
It is pretty exhaustive actually...breakfast, parades, speeches, balloons, street party, beach party, barbie, fireworks, rock concert, disco...breakfast..


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> It tends to be a far right or far left issue.
> 
> The referendum was certainly led by the far right, Farage and his disciples.........


Personally, I think it unjust to place voters that voted brexit far right. From first hand experience, I was on the streets campaigning for brexit from day one, we stood on the market for weeks gathering poll information, I can assure you many voters, from all parties, agreed with Nigel farage on the EU. The reason UKIP gained in popularity in such a small amount of time was that Nigel farage was the only chance of us ever getting the referendum, which many people had wanted since we first joined, this was their one and only chance, had nigel not have been so dominent prior to the referendum David Cameron would never ever have called it. As as to the exaggerations, these were on both sides, I think the turning point to many was when Camaron targeted every household in the uk with his leaflet on why we should remain, many people who were dithering then made a decision , perhaps to the distrust of the tories. I spoke to thousands , not hundreds thousands who said they would never vote for UKIP but were definately voting out. UKIP incidently joined forces with other groups campaigning to leave, I.e grass roots towards the end.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Personally, I think it unjust to place voters that voted brexit far right. From first hand experience, I was on the streets campaigning for brexit from day one, we stood on the market for weeks gathering poll information, I can assure you many voters, from all parties, agreed with Nigel farage on the EU. The reason UKIP gained in popularity in such a small amount of time was that Nigel farage was the only chance of us ever getting the referendum, which many people had wanted since we first joined, this was their one and only chance, had nigel not have been so dominent prior to the referendum David Cameron would never ever have called it. As as to the exaggerations, these were on both sides, I think the turning point to many was when Camaron targeted every household in the uk with his leaflet on why we should remain, many people who were dithering then made a decision , perhaps to the distrust of the tories. I spoke to thousands , not hundreds thousands who said they would never vote for UKIP but were definately voting out. UKIP incidently joined forces with other groups campaigning to leave, I.e grass roots towards the end.


Yay!!! Farage!!!His vision of Britain ( or Little America?)..is coming...

How reassuring...

Trump's America and Farage's Britain!

( but Americans will not have DT forever...).

And Murdoch's media...

I wonder how many % of Leave voters actually voted for THAT.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Yay!!! Farage!!!His vision of Britain ( or Little America?)..is coming...
> 
> How reassuring...
> 
> Trump's America and Farage's Britain!
> 
> ( but Americans will not have DT forever...).
> 
> And Murdoch's media...
> 
> I wonder how many % of Leave voters actually voted for THAT.


Well Murdoch won't have anything to report on if he didn't have Farage 

Yep @DT forever . Oops you mean Donald Trump @cheekyscrip. We'll only have to put up with Donald Trump for 4 years


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Well Murdoch won't have anything to report on if he didn't have Farage
> 
> Yep @DT forever.  Oops you mean Donald Trump @cheekscrip. We'll only have to put up with Donald Trump for 4 years


Like a bad penny...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> *Like a bad penny...*


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> you sure I can't tempt you, noushy noushy nu nu, with a cherry on the top.
> My friends will pick you up
> 
> View attachment 300062


:Hilarious

*I'm stealing those two when they arrive for me:Smuggrin (& we wont be partying!)*


----------



## 1290423

Just a reminder! If the voters, had been able to trust the conservatives , or more to the point caMORoN and his sidekick to hold a referendum there would have been no need of Nigel farage, who would you all have blamed then?


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Just a reminder! If the voters, had been able to trust the conservatives , or more to the point caMORoN and his sidekick to hold a referendum there would have been no need of Nigel farage, who would you all have blamed then?


Cameron?.
I do already...


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am just waiting to get the date so I can send these out to friends


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> *I'm stealing those two when they arrive for me:Smuggrin (& we wont be partying!)*


But! They have been promised a party!


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> But! They have been promised a party!
> View attachment 300076


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> If Brexit turns out to be a disaster and ruins the lives of future generations this image could well be appropriate.


On the plus side for politicians, even if that happens they'll be able to use the "Hey, it's what you voted for! " excuse for _decades_ to come...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> On the plus side for politicians, even if that happens they'll be able to use the "Hey, it's what you voted for! " excuse for _decades_ to come...


Plus that you cannot get second referendum...
Though you can...
Murdoch media will make sure..like in Russia that all news is good and even BoE would predict free unicorns..in next twenty years...

British unicorns obviously.


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> But! They have been promised a party!
> View attachment 300076


Not by me they aint!


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.open-britain.co.uk/brads...itise_immigration_policy_over_economic_policy


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## rona

I'll just leave this here
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ing-policies-bird-population?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I'll just leave this here
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ing-policies-bird-population?CMP=share_btn_fb


Well, if you think things are going to improve under Trump and May's command you've got to be joking!

After all, who approved of the Chinese Nuclear power plant in Somerset. Not the EU was it.

Unless I missed anything there's nothing to suggest the bird population will grow following Brexit.

A couple of the many comments below the article:


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

I understand BC News now tries to persuade us how much better health care would be if we have insurance to pay for it...

Brexit will be very much the end of free health care.

On up side..for foreigners too.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 300095


It won't make any difference.

The will of the people is being respected and the UK are leaving the EU 

History books will talk about the UK leaving the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The NHS will get extra funding, people have said in a poll that they are prepared to pay more income tax and National Insurance to cover funding the short fall in funding for the NHS. An MP has said raising National Insurance contribution levels so everyone pays more to help with extra NHS funding costs may solve NHS and social care crisis.

*NHS crisis: Public back tax rises to boost healthcare - poll*
http://news.sky.com/story/nhs-crisis-public-back-tax-rises-to-boost-healthcare-poll-10760783

*National Insurance rise may solve NHS and social care crisis, says MP*
http://news.sky.com/story/national-...e-nhs-and-social-care-crisis-says-mp-10760884


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> I understand BC News now tries to persuade us how much better health care would be if we have insurance to pay for it...


Didn't Farage support this idea, conveniently forgotten by many it seems....

Well they voted for this, so much for the £350m promised for the NHS in the event of a leave victory.

The post Brexit pledge is now apparent, they can't back their pledge as they won't be an NHS to divert the funds to....


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> It won't make any difference.
> 
> The will of the people is being respected and the UK are leaving the EU
> 
> History books will talk about the UK leaving the EU.
> 
> Have fun on your walk protesting I hope you have a nice day out. Personally I can think of better things to do for a day out than protesting


So you think the Trump protesters are wasting their time too?

And those who campaigned against the Poll Tax?.....

You have no idea do you. You're like a stuck record fantasising about how wonderful Brexit will be and how the entire UK will be jumping for joy when it happens.

Well I have news for you. Opposition is growing to the Farage and May's hard Brexit.

Yes, you keep bleating on about the Will of the people, just over half who voted, hardly a significant majority. If the leave victory was 60% against 40% you might have a point. Ironically the vote to remain in Scotland was roughly that yet you don't believe they should have the right to another independence vote!!!!!

Leaving the EU didn't mean having to exit the single market or customs union. I feel I'm reasonable in accepting an EEA or similar compromise in the interest of uniting the UK. Seems to work ok in Norway and Switzerland.

You'll still get to leave the EU as was on the ballot paper.

One of your earlier posts said, "We'll still be in the EEC" after Brexit which I took to mean the EEA.

Still, if you value Brexit so much which of course you are entitled to why not show loyalty to your country by destroying your EU/ Irish Passport which allows you continued EU rights and investing in a nice new British blue one when it's introduced which won't.

If you endorse a life outside EU membership you should practice what you preach, not dictate to others they should then brag about your rights to continued EU rights via your second passport while the rest of us lose our rights as EU citizens.
It was actually a very brave thing to admit to after your enthusiasm for Brexit!

You're right that Brexit will be in the history books . So is Nazi Germany, Stalin, the iron curtain and the Berlin Wall to mention a couple of other historical facts.

Just because something makes history doesn't necessarily mean it does for positive reasons.......

The, "We won, you lost, get over it" attitude will not shut us up. On the contrary, it makes us more vocal.

And more vocal we'll become.

Oh yes, for your information I won't be at the march on 4/3/17 as I'll be travelling back from Spain.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Still, if you value Brexit so much which of course you are entitled to why not show loyalty to your country by destroying your EU/ Irish Passport which allows you continued EU rights and investing in a nice new British blue one when it's introduced which won't.
> 
> If you
> endorse the new way of doing things you should practice what you preach, not dictate to others they should then brag your rights to continued EU rights via your second passport while the rest of us lose our rights as EU citizens.


 Did you miss my post about not getting an Irish Passport? I haven't got one as I am entitled to a British passport, so don't have an Irish passport to destroy. I was born in the UK by the way, Northern Ireland.


> One of your earlier posts said, "We'll still be in the EEC" after Brexit which I took to mean the EEA.


Sorry that was a typo error yes it was meant to be EEA. The Government has not decided yet if the UK will be leaving the EEA. Hence why the latest court case was blocked by the High Court Judge last week.


> Leaving the EU didn't mean having to exit the single market or customs union.


Ahh but it does because the UK will be restricting the flow of people into the UK so as a consequence will have to leave the Single Market as the UK will be breaking one of the four freedoms of movement, EU leaders have said this on countless occasions as well. Regarding the customs union this has already been explained, it is being renegotiated so the UK can strike its own trade deals with other countries, if the UK stays in the current Customs Agreement it will stop the UK from being able to do this.


> You have no idea do you. You're like a stuck record fantasising about how wonderful Brexit will be and how the entire UK will be jumping for joy when it happens.


I am like a stuck record. Pff. Really. Those of us that chose to vote leave have not heard the end of it online, like this thread which has gone around in so many circles. I understand you won't be jumping for joy, your choice, I respect that as you are entitled to your opinion like I am, but for some reason you don't like mine or anyone elses opinion who voted leave.


> Oh yes, for your information I won't be at the march on 4/3/17 as I'll be travelling back from Spain.


 I hope you have a nice holiday in Spain.

Anyway I'll leave this there.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I'll just leave this here
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ing-policies-bird-population?CMP=share_btn_fb


CAP is atrocious. No one could possibly deny that - it desperately needs reforming. But the EUs Birds & Habitat Directive is one of the most important pieces of conservation legislation in the world. The government themselves. have made it clear they are lighting a bonfire with environmental legislation, Rona.

I know David Attenborough is an intellectual who's opinion you respect - I'm sure we can both admit he knows a hell of a lot more than you or I do.

*David Attenborough 'saddened' over UK's decision to leave the EU*
*The conservationist reveals his concerns over the impact Brexit will have on the environment*

http://www.mirror.co.uk/science/david-attenborough-saddened-over-uks-8291992

Despite never explicitly revealing whether he voted to remain or stay, Sir David reflected on the impact the decision would have on green policies, saying: "That is sad. Swallows aren't members of the union, and migrant birds and so on."

One of his main concerns was whether Britain will carry on enacting the EU's Birds and Habitats Directive

"One just hopes that collaboration on these issues, conservation issues, will transcend political divisions," he said

The EU's Birds and Habitats Directive are two directives in relation to wildlife and nature conservation. It aims to protect some 220 habitats and approximately 1,000 species.

These species and habitats are considered to be of European interest, and the directives unite countries to protect and give regular reports on them.

Remain campaigners have warned that leaving the EU would have detrimental affects on the environment. Caroline Lucas, the Greens' only MP, said: "This decision could be devastating for the environment.

"The EU has been at the forefront of global action on climate change and Britain has been leading that push. [Friday's] decision not only undermines our standing in the international community, but represents a huge gamble with our own green energy targets and performance.

It stated: "With some of the €700 million (£540 million) of EU funding that goes to support the environment and rural areas supporting the maintenance and restoration of hedgerows, ditches, stone walls and our vital uplands, the very fabric of our countryside is being supported by our membership"

Meanwhile in an post-referendum statement, Friends of the Earth said the group could "no longer rely on the EU to protect our nature and habitats."


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> I'll just leave this here
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ing-policies-bird-population?CMP=share_btn_fb


I thought our farmers got grants to conserve hedgerows? That doesn't seem to tie up with this.

I can testify that there are definitely lots of hedges round here, as shown by the amount of bloody hawthorn I get in my tyres on my cycle commute.

And I saw a massive flock of lapwings a few days ago


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> The Government has not decided yet if the UK will be leaving the EEA. Hence why the latest court case was blocked by the High Court Judge last week.
> Ahh but it does because the UK will be restricting the flow of people into the UK so as a consequence will have to leave the Single Market....... I respect that as you are entitled to your opinion like I am, but for some reason you don't like mine or anyone elses opinion who voted leave.


The government are most certainly withdrawing from the EEA and similar Swiss arrangements as they allow free movement within the area.

Yes I do respect other opinions that differ to my own, but don't like to be told the likes of, "We won, you lost get over it" amongst other things. Not singling you out personally for this.

Conversely I bet you're sick to death of the pro EU lobby like myself!

I think the majority of remain voters accept the UK is leaving the EU. It's the terms of leaving which concerns me personally.

Reducing immigration as a priory is a very dangerous move in my opinion and could set an undesirable precedent in the future. Who's to say other "minorities" won't be targeted in the future? Will many EU citizens suddenly become "Illegal immigrants" overnight once Brexit is finalised? Will UK citizens living in the EU be deported in a "tit for tat" fashion?

One thing is for sure, the opposition to this as seen in Trump's US over his own immigration policy will grow should this happen.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
re 'collateral damage' to birds, land, water, air, etc,

just in case U missed it, Turkey is currently struggling with waste disposal - as a secondary effect of political quarrels.
Once-beautiful beaches are now de-facto dumps of garbage rotting & broken glass, heaps of plastic, pulping paper, & metal cans, trays, parts, etc.
As direct result, the waters are fouled, fish are dying, & scavenging birds are picking thru the trash for edibles.
.
What does Turkey do in response?...
Clean up the beaches? - arrest the dumpers? - No.
THEY * PAY * MEN * TO * SHOOT * THE * BIRDS, many of them migratory species already under stress; threatened species that don't "belong" to Turkey, but are simply travelers desperate for food to continue their journeys.
.
Way to go, brain-dead bureaucrats. 
Don't admit Ur own failings; punish the innocent, who cannot even physically defend themselves, let alone speak to protest.
/sarcasm
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

Some recent postings on the Sabre "Brexit, What Now?" thread.

Remarkably similar arguments don't you think?


----------



## Jonescat

I am confused about the references to a SABRE thread - what am I missing?


----------



## KittenKong

Jonescat said:


> I am confused about the references to a SABRE thread - what am I missing?


It's a site dedicated to roads. Like Pet Forums it has a General Chat page with its own for Brexit, now well over 200 pages like this one.

I've only posted once on that and haven't even mentioned Pet Forums there.

Yet the arguments are very similar on both forums!


----------



## Jonescat

Ah I see - thanks 

(On another tack - people stay up all night discussing roads?!?!?)


----------



## KittenKong

Jonescat said:


> Ah I see - thanks
> 
> (On another tack - people stay up all night discussing roads?!?!?)


Roads, street furniture and much more and, ahem Brexit and other matters too.

Haven't had a chance to look for a Pet thread yet!


----------



## leashedForLife

.
Jonesy,
the acronym is 'Scottish & British Road Enthusiasts', S.A.B.R.E. -
IOW, folks who'd rather drive to their vacay than take a train, ship, or plane, all things considered [if only warm, pink-sand beaches were in driving distance!...].
Basically an auto-club, but the focus on the travel / drive, not so much the auto body, engine details, etc, of the classic-car crowd.
.
if U scroll back, KK kindly gave a link, but U must sign-up to read the site's pages [it's free].
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

Yes indeed, see page 252 # 5036.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

KittenKong said:


> It's a site dedicated to roads. Like Pet Forums it has a General Chat page with its own for Brexit, now well over 200 pages like this one.
> 
> I've only posted once on that and haven't even mentioned Pet Forums there.
> 
> Yet the arguments are very similar on both forums!


I guess we can conclude from this that pet lovers and road lovers share similar demographics and political attitudes. Seems intuitive really!


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Well, if you think things are going to improve under Trump and May's command you've got to be joking!
> 
> View attachment 300089
> View attachment 300090


So, do we have you word that it wont then?

I swear to god aome folk need lining up and shooting as sure they are only put on this earth to see the uk fail!
Very sad! Should be tried for treason


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> So, do we have you word that it wont then?
> 
> I swear to god aome folk need lining up and shooting as sure they are only put on this earth to see the uk fail!
> Very sad! Should be tried for treason


Some make UK fail . Treason.

Making UK much poorer and horrible.
How do you think the world sees abandoning child refugees?
Trump and Putin might approve but the rest?

Talking about betrayal ....

Shame.

Obviously rich would get richer...cutting corporate taxes benefits whom really?
Not the budget..

Farage's plan for UK is a joke. On us all except privileged few.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> *The NHS will get extra funding, *people have said in a poll that they are prepared to pay more income tax and National Insurance to cover funding the short fall in funding for the NHS. An MP has said raising National Insurance contribution levels so everyone pays more to help with extra NHS funding costs may solve NHS and social care crisis.
> 
> *NHS crisis: Public back tax rises to boost healthcare - poll*
> http://news.sky.com/story/nhs-crisis-public-back-tax-rises-to-boost-healthcare-poll-10760783
> 
> *National Insurance rise may solve NHS and social care crisis, says MP*
> http://news.sky.com/story/national-...e-nhs-and-social-care-crisis-says-mp-10760884


No it wont get extra funding. This is a planned demolition of our NHS by the tories. One in 6 of our A&Es are set to be downgraded or closed. Things are going to get so much worse.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Some make UK fail . Treason.
> 
> Making UK much poorer and horrible.
> How do you think the world sees abandoning child refugees?
> Trump and Putin might approve but the rest?
> 
> Talking about betrayal ....
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Obviously rich would get richer...cutting corporate taxes benefits whom really?
> Not the budget..





cheekyscrip said:


> Some make UK fail . Treason.
> 
> Making UK much poorer and horrible.
> How do you think the world sees abandoning child refugees?
> Trump and Putin might approve but the rest?
> 
> Talking about betrayal ....
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Obviously rich would get richer...cutting corporate taxes benefits whom really?
> Not the budget..
> 
> Farage's plan for UK is a joke. On us all except privileged few.[/QUOTE
> 
> How many countries did thise poor children cross through to get to calais? Did NONE of those countries they passed through show any compassion
> 
> .


How many countries did those poor children pass through before arriving in calais? Did NoNE of those those countries show any compassion? Did they not welcome these children? Give them safe harbour?


----------



## 1290423

One in five children in this country are living in povety! My view is when we fixed our pwn roof we,ll fix our neighbours!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No it wont get extra funding. This is a planned demolition of our NHS by the tories. One in 6 of our A&Es are set to be downgraded or closed. Things are going to get so much worse.


I guess you aren't willing to pay more income tax and national insurance then to help give the NHS more money? Others are from the polls and surveys done. You better had get saving to pay for your future treatment then if you aren't willing to pay more


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> No it wont get extra funding. This is a planned demolition of our NHS by the tories. One in 6 of our A&Es are set to be downgraded or closed. Things are going to get so much worse.


Mine shut three years ago noushx


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> I guess you aren't willing to pay more income tax and national insurance then to help give the NHS more money? Others are from the polls and surveys done. You better had get saving to pay for your future treatment then if you aren't willing to pay more


Noush is lovely stockwell, and I think she would, but on that note, seriously I think its time we did pay more


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> How many countries did those poor children pass through before arriving in calais? Did NoNE of those those countries show any compassion? Did they not welcome these children? Give them safe harbour?


Tell me that France have none. Germany has none. Greece and Italy neither.
Not to mention Poland and all others who took refugees fleeing from wars...Millions in neighboring countries.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> One in five children in this country are living in povety! My view is when we fixed our pwn roof we,ll fix our neighbours!


Honestly I do not know how you define poverty, but cannot believe they are homeless, on the street, exposed to abuse and starving.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No it wont get extra funding. This is a planned demolition of our NHS by the tories. One in 6 of our A&Es are set to be downgraded or closed. Things are going to get so much worse.


My parents local A&E is an hour away and with the latest problems my mum had with her health condition this was too far by ambulance and had to send an air ambulance to air lift her from home to A&E (The helicopter landed at the local cricket ground which is across the road to pick mum up). She then had to wait 13 hours in A&E and 5 days in the Medical Assement Unit (with very little sleep) before being allowed to go home.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Tell me that France have none. Germany has none. Greece and Italy neither.
> Not to mention Poland and all others who took refugees fleeing from wars...Millions in neighboring





cheekyscrip said:


> Honestly I do not know how you define poverty, but cannot believe they are homeless, on the street, exposed to abuse and starving.


Poland, I would be interested to learn how many myself, as understood e they had only taken ukranians


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Honestly I do not know how you define poverty, but cannot believe they are homeless, on the street, exposed to abuse and starving.


They are on the street cheeky I see half a dozen of them daily locally were I live because the local refugee centre has been closed due to funding cuts and the council won't rehouse them because there is over a 20 year wait for social housing in London in general and they aren't in urgent need. People were asked last year if anyone had a spare room and if they would take any refugees in, I guess that didn't go down to well.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Poland, I would be interested to learn how many myself, as understood e they had only taken ukranians


Only about a million ..they lost count....


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Honestly I do not know how you define poverty, but cannot believe they are homeless, on the street, exposed to abuse and starving.


Depends what age you judge a child! Are you taking the chd refugees we see in need of a shave? As yes we have 15 year olds on the street


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Only about a million ..they lost count....


A million what


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Depends what age you judge a child! Are you taking the chd refugees we see in need of a shave? As yes we have 15 year olds on the street


True shame for one of richest countries un the world...
Who is in power in this country!!!

Or 300 kid refugees are to blame?


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> True shame for one of richest countries un the world...
> Who is in power in this country!!!
> 
> Or 300 kid refugees are to blame?


300 today, 3000 tomorrow, as I say fix our own roof!


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> True shame for one of richest countries un the world...
> Who is in power in this country!!!
> 
> Or 300 kid refugees are to blame?


Or get 300 families to adopt, that should be fairly easy, I was adopted, and would adopt,

Another weimaraner


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> A million what


During fights while transports were coming of wounded. Hospital ms were open, even schools turned into shelters, people opened their times, churches opened their doors .

And on top of about 800 k to one million Ukrainians Poland also took others








So did other EU countries if you bother to check.
Much poorer with own homeless and unemployed.

I am sure all 27 EU countries have own problems. Many bigger than UK.

Canada also does. Not mention countries neighbouring with Syria.

In this world we can share or we can choose hunger games.
.


----------



## 1290423

1100 0ver two years under an eu scheme?
Guess that means funded?
Funny enough my best friend is here staying at the moment, her name is krystya, she says poland is a country with lots of very poor villages, she asked me to check how many romania and bulgaria were taking.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> They are on the street cheeky I see half a dozen of them daily locally were I live because the local refugee centre has been closed due to funding cuts and the council won't rehouse them because there is over a 20 year wait for social housing in London in general and they aren't in urgent need. People were asked last year if anyone had a spare room and if they would take any refugees in, I guess that didn't go down to well.


Yep...I don't live in a deprived area, but recently we notice that whenever a shop becomes empty, within days there is someone sleeping in the doorway; in this weather too.


----------



## 1290423

Sorry, just missunderstood, meant not so many people living in an area the same size as uk with many small villages x


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> Yep...I don't live in a deprived area, but recently we notice that whenever a shop becomes empty, within days there is someone sleeping in the doorway; in this weather too.


The methodist church in our town opened its doors last night to the homeless due to the freezing tempratures


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> During fights while transports were coming of wounded. Hospital ms were open, even schools turned into shelters, people opened their times, churches opened their doors .
> 
> And on top of about 800 k to one million Ukrainians Poland also took others
> View attachment 300170
> 
> So did other EU countries if you bother to check.
> Much poorer with own homeless and unemployed.


Ireland pledged to take 4,000 last year (2016) and only took 1,040 (40 refugees entered Ireland every 2 weeks). Only 200 children from the Calais camps were taken by Ireland in total last year (2016).


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Ireland pledged to take 4,000 last year (2016) and only took 1,040 (40 refugees entered Ireland every 2 weeks). Only 200 children from the Calais camps were taken by Ireland in total last year (2016).


Which excuses Britain? 
I remember times and Thatcher and Reagan. The help given during the darkest times of martial law and fighting.
Times when food for children was distributed by church and came from behind Iron Curtain.
Thus is why I cannot turn my back neither on Ukraine or Calais.

I do understand the problem of sudden mass migration, definitely many on EU migrants in Poland as elsewhere just look for better chance.

But even for the sake of good relationship with EU, still needed!, in or out.. those agreements should be honoured.

Do you really want to emulate Trump?
That is the role model?

Shame.


----------



## 1290423

Charity begins at home......when and if everything were ever in order here I dont think snyone would have a problem with helping others...
Until that day we need to put our foot down


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Which excuses Britain?


Why should the UK take more?

92,000+ UK children in care (should come first)
NHS in crisis
Housing Crisis
Social Housing waiting lists the longest in history.
Councils up and down the country have said children's homes are full
Refugee centres in cities around the country closing down due to lack of council funding. - Refugees ending up on the streets so are no better off than were they are at the moment in other European countries.
The UK is in deficit and austerity still and debt so doesn't have extra funding to fund opening more places for refugees to come to.
The UK has taken in 10,000 refugee families, and 350 refugee children. These levels are sustainable just. You don't see this in Gibraltar @cheekyscrip.


----------



## 1290423

Oh stockwell, social housing, in my day we had council houses! When I was first engaged we put our names on the list, think that would be 1972, surely I must be getting towards the top now


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat . where did you get stats from . I was looking for numbers of refugees that have been accepted in the last few years . I couldn't find much though .

I think the government need to get their act together, though .
Its going to take time for new homes to be built and the councils budgets have been slashed.

ETA Our London council have to take in lone child refugees , the government funding doesnt cover tall the cost , there's two million pound shortfall


----------



## Calvine

*Once, We Were Soldiers*

Registered as a charity in England & Wales - Charity Number 1158318

*Did you know that at least 10% of the UK homeless population is made up of ex-forces personnel? *

Let's not forget these people either while we are concerning ourselves with taking care of those who need and deserve our help. _''Lest we forget.''_


----------



## kimthecat

@Calvine Ex forces have been treated disgracefully .


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> think that would be 1972


Stop being impatient.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> @Calvine Ex forces have been treated disgracefully .


@kimthecat: Shameful, it truly is.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> @kimthecat: Shameful, it truly is.


Who is to blame? 
UK has shortages of plumbers, nurses, midwives, teachers etc...

Also generations on benefits. 
I know exforce are offered grants for education.

To get new qualifications. More can be done.

Just one minor thing: the unrest inMiddle East , war in Syria.. isn't it domino effect of war in which Britain took part along their best buds USA and WoMD were never found? But IS was born. .

Maybe it is the price we pay now?

Other EU countries took refugees though had much less to do with war with Iraq.
Yet no intervention in Syria. Then Putin came and restored Assad.
Now we see mass graves and mass hanging.

Least can be done now: help those kids for we are not without guilt.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Who is to blame?


I'm just making an observation, not pointing the finger. I imagine cuts in defence have caused some of it and I guess the numbers will go up if there are more cuts.


----------



## Jonescat

So - asking out of interest, because I don't know - is this not working?
"Since the 2002 Homelessness (Priority Need for Accommodation) (England) Order then any person who is “vulnerable as a result of leaving the armed forces” automatically has priority on the Local Authority’s housing register – they are considered to be “statutorily homeless” and consequently the Council has a legal obligation to house them. For those who cannot find accommodation through their own means, then there is this “safety net”."


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> 1100 0ver two years under an eu scheme?
> Guess that means funded?
> Funny enough my best friend is here staying at the moment, her name is krystya, she says poland is a country with lots of very poor villages, she asked me to check how many romania and bulgaria were taking.


East Wall, lots of poor villages, where state farming kolchoz style farming collapsed. West with outdated heavy industry and mining. Lots of problems. Ukrainians did not get nowhere near the support that was needed. 
Plus our export to Russia due to sanctions was ruined.
So now Polish who want to leave UK find it hard to be employed back in Poland.
Still help was given. 
Compassion and kindness.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> So - asking out of interest, because I don't know - is this not working?
> "Since the 2002 Homelessness (Priority Need for Accommodation) (England) Order then any person who is "vulnerable as a result of leaving the armed forces" automatically has priority on the Local Authority's housing register - they are considered to be "statutorily homeless" and consequently the Council has a legal obligation to house them. For those who cannot find accommodation through their own means, then there is this "safety net"."


Have you walked into a housing centre recently and seen the queue for homelessness? The homeless act 2002 isn't worth the paper it isn't written on. Those that are vulnerable do get rehoused but in my area of London are warned there is no guarantee they will get a home as the wait list for emergency housing/, priority housing is 10 years, there is a 20+ year waiting list for generalised housing. People that are having there application accepted as homeless are being put into B&B accommodation if any places can be found other wise it's tough as they end up on the streets. 13 years ago you could walk into a council office and tell the council you have seen a property empty and are interested in it and get it (this is how I got my place), now you can't and have to wait.

Yes the council has an obligation to rehouse people who are vulnerable but they join a queue of people that are vulnerable on the housing register, the wait in my area is 10+ years on the emergency list. Temporary accommodation is a B&B miles away from here.

I know this information because I know someone that has been through the process and gave up due to the length of time they have to wait. This person has now moved to Lancashire and got a house within 4 weeks off the council. He's not happy as he is nowhere near friends and family.


----------



## noushka05

Homelessness has more than doubled since 2010. I wonder why?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Homelessness has more than doubled since 2010. I wonder why?


Increase in people entering the UK either that be from EU, migrants and refugees. Nothing to do with the Government. Councils were told to prepare for the increase 10 years ago.


----------



## rona

Jonescat said:


> So - asking out of interest, because I don't know - is this not working?
> "Since the 2002 Homelessness (Priority Need for Accommodation) (England) Order then any person who is "vulnerable as a result of leaving the armed forces" automatically has priority on the Local Authority's housing register - they are considered to be "statutorily homeless" and consequently the Council has a legal obligation to house them. For those who cannot find accommodation through their own means, then there is this "safety net"."


Rock and a hard place......child or loan soldier?

Shouldn't be this way but it is and this is what we should be addressing, not the rest of the worlds ills


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Increase in people entering the UK either that be from EU, migrants and refugees. Nothing to do with the Government. Councils were told to prepare for the increase 10 years ago.


It's not that simple. Council houses stand empty because the council claim they require repair or extensive renovation. Electrics/plumbing/windows etc, etc and therefore aren't up to the acceptable standard for occupancy.
The government funding for repair to these properties is not available, the council don't have the workforce to keep on top of repairs and so these properties stand empty indefinitely.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Rock and a hard place......child or loan soldier?
> 
> Shouldn't be this way but it is and this is what we should be addressing, not the rest of the worlds ills


This why 3k was agreed not 80.
We can't help all. But at least we do our best to help.
Would you give 50p a year to help homeless teen refugees?

I bet! I know you .


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> It's not that simple. Council houses stand empty because the council claim they require repair or extensive renovation. Electrics/plumbing/windows etc, etc and therefore aren't up to the acceptable standard for occupancy.
> The government funding for repair to these properties is not available, the council don't have the workforce to keep on top of repairs and so these properties stand empty indefinitely.


That's not entirely true. Councils have been doing loads of properties up around London, Manchester, Leeds and Lancashire (new kitchens, bathrooms, new double glazed windows, new electrics) there a very few empty un fit for habitation as the council's have torn them down sold the land off to housing associations who have built flats on these sites.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> That's not entirely true. Councils have been doing loads of properties up around London, Manchester, Leeds and Lancashire (new kitchens, bathrooms, new double glazed windows, new electrics) there a very few empty un fit for habitation as the council's have torn them down sold the land off to housing associations who have built flats on these sites.


Then you need to do a little more travelling and a little more homework. You need to investigate all the reasons why people become homeless including those who are made so by archaic rules and regulations set by the Govt you hold in such high esteem.
I've seen for myself the results of the so called improvements councils have promised their tenants. House clearance schemes that tore down more houses than it replaced. Compulsory purchases of old properties that were leveled to the ground only to be replaced by empty factories and car parks.


----------



## Calvine

Jonescat said:


> is this not working?


I'll take a guess and say apparently it isn't (working).


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> Rock and a hard place......child or loan soldier?
> 
> Shouldn't be this way but it is and this is what we should be addressing, not the rest of the worlds ills


Even if charity no longer ''starts at home'' (unquote) the very least we can do is take care of those deserving people for whom this country IS home.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 300186
> View attachment 300190
> View attachment 300191
> View attachment 300192
> View attachment 300193
> View attachment 300194


He's sounding a bit like a Japanese holdout tbh.

The Article 50 bill passed without a single amendment. Most pundits believe the Lords dare not block it. The trigger will pulled next month. The government has promised a vote in parliament on the deal but the timing of that necessarily means that the vote will be either accept the deal we have or leave with no deal.

We will get the proper full-fat Brexit that our prime minister has promised.

The fat lady has started her song. It's over. Time to give up all hope of an alternative past.


----------



## cheekyscrip

We will kick one group of immigrants out to take another lot in.

Obviously of UK prefers guys from there?


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> We will get the proper full-fat Brexit that our prime minister has promised.
> 
> The fat lady has started her song. It's over. Time to give up all hope of an alternative past.


You are sadly right but why should we give up hope?

I'm sure after Tony Blair won the 1997 General Election you were devastated but you didn't give up hope for a return of a right wing Conservative government which you now have, to the extent it makes Mrs Thatcher's time in office moderate in comparison.

Best things come to those that wait you can say???


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> We will kick one group of immigrants out to take another lot in.
> 
> Obviously of UK prefers guys from there?
> View attachment 300197


That won't please those Brexiteers who voted leave to send the foreigners home.

I can see divisions not only between the pro EU lobby and Brexiteers, but amongst Brexiteers themselves.

Hilarious!


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> That won't please those Brexiteers who voted leave to send the foreigners home.
> 
> I can see divisions not only between the pro EU lobby and Brexiteers, but amongst Brexiteers themselves.
> 
> Hilarious!


Imagine if all those foreigners went on strike.
From Premiership all the way..doctors, nurses, builders, drivers,everyone not British born from British parents...

Sitting strike...


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> We aren't coming out of the commonwealth, we are leaving the EU and will still be members of the Commonwealth, so this news article doesn't make sense.


This summer English man told me voted for Brexit, because there are too many foreigners in UK. All his street " turned black".
Are they from EU I asked , surprised.
" Oh no, from West Indies".. Answered he, thinking how thick I am.
" But you still will be in Commonwealth? Even more so? "
He had no answer to that.

So if you do not see connections...you not the only one...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> This summer English man told me voted for Brexit, because there are too many foreigners in UK. All his street " turned black".
> Are they from EU I asked , surprised.
> " Oh no, from West Indies".. Answered he, thinking how thick I am.
> " But you still will be in Commonwealth? Even more so? "
> He had no answer to that.
> 
> So if you do not see connections...you not the only one...


I know the difference between the commonwealth and the EU @cheekyscrip. You do know they are only trading blocks, the Commonwealth being the larger of the two. European Citizens will still be coming to the UK and UK citizens to European Countries, nothing will change in that respect expect UK and European Citizens will have to get travel visas (the end of free movement to the UK). Commonwealth citizens have to get visas anyway even now because they are outside of the European Union block and European free movement zone. Commonwealth citizens include people from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Cyprus, Jamaica, Singapore, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Barbados etc etc. I just didn't understand why they would suddenly be queueing for visas for when the UK leaves the EU as they have to queue for them now because they have to have visas to come to the UK and Europe anyway.

The news article is probably and most likely fake news by the way as it has been fake news week in the UK press.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I know the difference between the commonwealth and the EU @cheekyscrip. You do know they are only trading blocks, the Commonwealth being the larger of the two. European Citizens will still be coming to the UK and UK citizens to European Countries, nothing will change in that respect expect UK and European Citizens will have to get travel visas (the end of free movement to the UK). Commonwealth citizens have to get visas anyway even now because they are outside of the European Union block and European free movement zone. Commonwealth citizens include people from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Cyprus, Jamaica, Singapore, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Barbados etc etc. I just didn't understand why they would suddenly be queueing for visas for when the UK leaves the EU as they have to queue for them now because they have to have visas to come to the UK and Europe anyway.


I think the point Cheeky was trying to make is, while immigration from the EU will become far more difficult the current Commonwealth restrictions will greatly ease.

This can only mean less immigration from the EU and more from the Commonwealth.

I can't see that pleasing Brexit voters who voted that way believing it will result in less immigration.

It'll probably result in a lot more!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I think the point Cheeky was trying to make is, while immigration from the EU will become far more difficult the current Commonwealth restrictions will greatly ease.


It won't be difficult people will still be able to travel around its just UK and other European Country residents will need to get a visa which are easy to get hold of and will only cost around €5 (this was the figure put up by the EU as they are considering starting a visa checking system for EU citizens). European Countries controlled borders (with border guards) was gradually phased out and the Schegen Agreement entered into force on 26th March 1995 (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.3.html). Other countries citizens of other countries outside of the EU have to get visas to visit European Countries and the UK and haven't found it difficult to travel or to obtain such visas and travel with ease. In most cases electronic visas can be obtained online that you pick up at the airport or ferry port or have sent to you and put in your passport. My dad does it all the time when he goes to Turkey, he picks his visa up from a machine in the airport in Turkey after he has landed before he goes through customs, the visa gives you ninety days to visit the country as a tourist.


----------



## KittenKong

Guess we better go private then.
It's clearly obvious what's happening.


----------



## Zaros

I read a short piece in the Guardian the other day that told the story of 9 year old Suki, a little girl who was forced to walk 11 miles each day just to fetch two buckets of water for her crippled mother.

And I couldn't help thinking she should move!


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 300223
> View attachment 300224
> 
> 
> Guess we better go private then.
> It's clearly obvious what's happening.


Did it explain in any detail why there would be a delay?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> It won't be difficult people will still be able to travel around its just UK and other European Country residents will need to get a visa which are easy to get hold of and will only cost around €5 (this was the figure put up by the EU as they are considering starting a visa checking system for EU citizens). European Countries controlled borders (with border guards) was gradually phased out and the Schegen Agreement entered into force on 26th March 1995 (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.3.html). Other countries citizens of other countries outside of the EU have to get visas to visit European Countries and the UK and haven't found it difficult to travel or to obtain such visas and travel with ease. In most cases electronic visas can be obtained online that you pick up at the airport or ferry port or have sent to you and put in your passport. My dad does it all the time when he goes to Turkey, he picks his visa up from a machine in the airport in Turkey after he has landed before he goes through customs, the visa gives you ninety days to visit the country as a tourist.


It's fine to be optimistic and believe things won't change, or at worst a 5€ surcharge for UK citizens to enter Europe. So far it's only speculation, not a fact. I choose to be pessimistic so if the worst happens at least I'm prepared for it.

Besides the UK is developing a reputation of being xenophobic.

The number of EU based tourists who'll have enough difficulty coming to the Uk when they'll be made more welcome elsewhere won't bother with the UK and who can blame them?!

Just putting myself in the position as an overseas person. The UK would no longer appeal to me personally with its anti immigrant stance.

If a 5€ surcharge to enter the EU is what you call a " best case scenario". I strongly object to that personally as it reinforces I will no longer be classed as a citizen of Europe. Not in my name and certainly something I don't accept being a frequent traveller within the EU.

I'm sure many who voted leave would object too. Some of them seem to have the delusional belief the end of free movement is a one way event, in other words the "superiority of being British" will allow continued rights for unrestricted employment and rights to live in the EU, but not vice versa.....

Let such people prepare themselves for a short shsrp shock.

......Could be good for Butlins and Pontins of course.....


----------



## Jonescat

Private won't help unless you want to play with unlicenced drugs. . The prediction is that once we pull out of the EU,we won't be in the EMA which regulates drugs in Europe, and will have to have our own regulator. When a new drug comes to market the manufacturer will push it through the European regulator first because it will reach a bigger market to recoup their research costs and they will get round to us based on the perceived benefit to them in the UK market. We will be much smaller so we will be at the back of the queue.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Did it explain in any detail why there would be a delay?


Part of the same article from Reason2remain.eu


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Part of the same article from Reason2remain.eu
> 
> View attachment 300229


I suppose the UK could just align its regulations to that of the EMA so there wouldn't be any extra hurdles to jump through. They already have to get through our MHRA which is separate to the EMA anyway.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Just putting myself in the position as an overseas person. The UK would no longer appeal to me personally with its anti immigrant stance.


So if protecting the UK's borders is xeonphobic and anti immigration how the hell does other countries outside of the EU cope (the EU is not Europe by the way, the UK will remain a European Country)? Australia have a booming tourist trade so do New Zealand and Canada and other countries (I daren't say America because if everyone's hot headed opinions on DT at the moment, but they do well not being part of the EU).

Seriously fallible (wrong) arguements you are putting forward.

It is those that keep making these negative comments hoping this will blow over that are driving the UK into the ground and the UK hasn't even entered into negotiations yet. You are again making far fetched imaginable arguements (not real).

You call me a dreamer, you are to. You keep hoping the Government will change there minds and not go ahead with this. It is you that is not respecting the Referendum results that took place and are not willing for this to work out. Listen to yourself..

The EU are not the be all and end all in the world they are just a greedy trading organisation that hasn't had any accountability since it was formed and don't like any country under its jurisdiction having its own trade deals.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think we are in for a hard time, those who think the EU are just going to let ot us have our own way on trade have got that one wrong, why should they give in to what we want. The same with trade in non EU countries they aren't going to roll over and trade with us, it will come at a cost, I just hope we can afford it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

The funny things as UK wants ' British laws" but our regulating bodies, for food, medicines, you name it..will have to mirror the regulations in EU so we will have actually the same laws at extra costs...
Genius!!!
This is why we have EU in first place! To cut on tariffs, regulation bodies in every country, border delays, to cut down legal costs , to facilitate cooperation... trade, security and police, research, education, health care, environmental protection....
This is what " global" means...

Australia is naturally more involved in trade around Pacific.

Geography dictates trade, tourism and so on...
You can have weekend break in EU but not Oz!


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I think we are in for a hard time, those who think the EU are just going to let ot us have our own way on trade have got that one wrong, why should they give in to what we want. The same with trade in non EU countries they aren't going to roll over and trade with us, it will come at a cost, I just hope we can afford it.


Yes, I'm sure it will.At least as far as a tax haven for mega rich multinationals are concerned.

I wonder what Trump will expect in return?

The thought horrifies me.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I'm sure it will.At least as far as a tax haven for mega rich multinationals are concerned.
> 
> I* wonder what Trump will expect in return? *
> 
> The thought horrifies me.


He might say we are at the top of the queue but if he has a stromp we'll soon be at the bottom.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> I think we are in for a hard time, those who think the EU are just going to let ot us have our own way on trade have got that one wrong, why should they give in to what we want. The same with trade in non EU countries they aren't going to roll over and trade with us, it will come at a cost, I just hope we can afford it.


You hope.
Last week in Malta the EU leaders were saying they want a trade deal with the UK. So you're saying they don't. Right, yeah, ok mean while in the real world EU leaders are realising they have to have a trade deal with the UK and have access to the UK markets (London) because funnily enough that is where the financial hub of the world.

EU leaders want a trade deal with the UK it's only those that can't accept the outcome of the Referendum that hope everything fails.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I'm sure it will.At least as far as a tax haven for mega rich multinationals are concerned.
> 
> I wonder what Trump will expect in return?
> 
> The thought horrifies me.


Free movement?
Lol...


----------



## MollySmith

Can someone remind me of what happened to Boris and Nigel's £35m promised investment to the NHS? I've lost track of where this money ended up.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> He might say we are at the top of the queue but if he has a stromp we'll soon be at the bottom.


Yes, people tend to forget AMERICA FIRST is his motto.

Any trade deal Trump makes with the UK will benefit them more than the UK.

Nothing new as far as the "special relationship" is concerned.

Pity they didn't make an effort to build a special relationship with former EU colleagues. To the best of my knowledge they didn't involve the UK in wars like the Gulf, Afghanistan nor Iraq.

Bit late to concern ourselves with that now of course....


----------



## stockwellcat.

MollySmith said:


> Can someone remind me of what happened to Boris and Nigel's £35m promised investment to the NHS? I've lost track of where this money ended up.


Sure.
MP's voted that the Government shouldn't be accountable what-so-ever last week when they voted on the amendments. Hence why no amendments got through on the Article 50 bill  One of the amendments was to hold the Government to account on the £350 million pledge but it got rejected.


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat said:


> Sure.
> MP's voted that the Government shouldn't be accountable what-so-ever last week when they voted on the amendments. Hence why no amendments got through on the Article 50 bill


Oh it's you - I'd like an actual account not the fake one *pops you back on ignore*


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> Can someone remind me of what happened to Boris and Nigel's £35m promised investment to the NHS? I've lost track of where this money ended up.


We haven't left yet and it's still going into EU coffers for a couple of years


----------



## cheekyscrip

Another jolly piece of news...BBC tonight...
All journalists will be banned under threat of prison sentence to publish anything unofficial on Brexit.

Only government approved documents could be publishable.

I feel like after lifting the Iron Curtain on one end I got it back on the other .

On plus side...there will not be any bad news from now.

Unicorns and rainbows 

We will get " best deal possible" right?
Remember Lego Movie?

" Everything is awesome"...
Lego Britain!!!


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Another jolly piece of news...BBC tonight...
> All journalists will be banned under threat of prison sentence to publish anything unofficial on Brexit.
> 
> Only government approved documents could be publishable.
> 
> I feel like after lifting the Iron Curtain on one end I got it back on the other .
> 
> On plus side...there will not be any bad news from now.
> 
> Unicorns and rainbows
> 
> We will get " best deal possible" right?
> Remember Lego Movie?
> 
> " Everything is awesome"...
> Lego Britain!!!


Do you have a link to the story about the journalists?


----------



## stockwellcat.

MollySmith said:


> Oh it's you - I'd like an actual account not the fake one *pops you back on ignore*


*This is note fake news @MollySmith I watched it on the Parliament Channel as they debated and voted on it. 337 MP's voted against the amendment for the £350 million a week pledge. Here is what happened:*


> Here's what Chuka had to say:
> "Tory MPs who campaigned to leave the European Union should hang their heads in shame for voting this amendment down. For them to promise £350 million more a week for the NHS, and then turn round and oppose an amendment that would have set out how they will deliver their pledge is utterly shameless and disgraceful.
> 
> "Voters can now see very well that pro-Leave Tories made that pledge cynically, without ever thinking about how it might be achieved.
> 
> "Many people voted for Brexit because they believed, in good faith, the pledge painted down the side of Vote Leave's big red bus. If the Government do not keep the promise made by so many of their leading members, they will face deep and justified public anger."
> 
> *Vote Leave supporters vote against their own pledge*
> Chuka Umunna is very annoyed that a number of key Vote Leave campaigners have voted against a pledge they made during the campaign.
> 
> *Boris Johnson, Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Gisela Stuart, Andrea Leadsom and Priti Patel were among the 337 MPs who voted against the £350million a week for the NHS amendment.*




*Brexit Bill: These are the MPs who voted against the £350m NHS amendment*
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-bill-nhs-amendment-350-mps-voted-against-conservative-labour-a7570591.html?amp?client=ms-android-motorola

*Brexit bill: MPs who voted against Chuka Umunna's NHS amendment*
http://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/...nhs-amendment/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola

Every single amendment put forward was voted against. No amendments were passed and the bill has been passed to the House of Lords.

*Brexit Bill amendments explained: Every change to her Article 50 law that Theresa May has blocked*
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...change-9770521.amp?client=ms-android-motorola

I honestly don't care if you have me on ignore it's your choice. I have a clear conscience as I told you the truth.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Do you have a link to the story about the journalists?


Just heard it on BBC. Campaigners for freedom of speech are impressed, Russia and China do that but Britain?
So no more leaks or else!

No.more criticism from hostile press.
Murdoch news for everyone!!!

The new Britain sounds familiar....


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Just heard it on BBC. Campaigners for freedom of speech are impressed, Russia and China do that but Britain?
> So no more leaks or else!
> 
> No.more criticism from hostile press.
> Murdoch news for everyone!!!
> 
> The new Britain sounds familiar....


Yeah I would need more info to cast a judgement really. At this point I am just skeptical of what your saying.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Yeah I would need more info to cast a judgement really. At this point I am just skeptical of what your saying.


Well.. I find it hard to believe too..but OH heard it too..so cannot be just my vivid imagination?
Seems the legislation is being worked on right now.. Well over 300 pages so far ...would be ironic if they leaked...


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Well.. I find it hard to believe too..but OH heard it too..so cannot be just my vivid imagination?
> Seems the legislation is being worked on right now.. Well over 300 pages so far ...would be ironic if they leaked...


Yeah I don't doubt you heard it, but lets face it the media don't half like to sensationalize things sometimes! Which is why I always like to read at bit more (Past the headlines and if possible to the source document).


----------



## Satori

MollySmith said:


> Oh it's you - I'd like an actual account not the fake one *pops you back on ignore*


He'll live.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If you choose to ignore me. There's plenty of other people to talk to


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> So if protecting the UK's borders is xeonphobic and anti immigration how the hell does other countries outside of the EU cope (the EU is not Europe by the way, the UK will remain a European Country)? Australia have a booming tourist trade so do New Zealand and Canada and other countries (I daren't say America because if everyone's hot headed opinions on DT at the moment, but they do well not being part of the EU).


I was thinking that . a visa is needed for us to travel to certain countries , I wouldn't think they were being unfriendly .


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> One in five children in this country are living in povety! My view is when we fixed our pwn roof we,ll fix our neighbours!


Who broke that roof, though? lol How do we fix it when you keep ignoring the root cause or the problem & the root cause are in government?

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-civil-services-child-poverty-unit?CMP=twt_gu



stockwellcat said:


> Increase in people entering the UK either that be from EU, migrants and refugees. Nothing to do with the Government. Councils were told to prepare for the increase 10 years ago.


Not the findings of experts. This is a key factor in the crisis we're witnessing > Tory policies on social housing & benefits http://www.crisis.org.uk/data/files/Homelessness_briefing_2017_EXTERNAL.pdf

The welfare and housing systems have traditionally acted as a buffer between unemployment, poverty and homelessness. Government reforms, particularly cuts to Housing Benefit, are eroding this safety net. Housing Benefit has been cut by around £7bn.  Homelessness has risen already and the housing shortage combined with welfare changes mean that all forms of homelessness are likely to increase further despite signs of a recovering economy.


----------



## noushka05

*"If you think nationalism is a welcome breath of fresh air, think again:
It is the road to war." *- Frans Timmermans.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/201...t-frans-timmermans-future-force-conference_en


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *Not the findings of experts. * This is a key factor in the crisis we're witnessing > Tory policies on social housing & benefits http://www.crisis.org.uk/data/files/Homelessness_briefing_2017_EXTERNAL.pdf


Are your friends the so called experts running the country though? Experts have got things wrong so many times I kind of take what they say with a pinch of salt 

*Beware: the experts are usually poor forecasters*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...r-forecasters/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Are your friends the so called experts running the country though? Experts have got things wrong so many times I kind of take what they say with a pinch of salt


Wow, no wonder this country (& the US) are in such a state when people can't ever recognise facts anymore.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Wow, no wonder this country (& the US) are in such a state when people can't ever recognise facts anymore.


Facts by whom?
Experts are very bad at getting things right, so why should I believe them?

FACTS can't be predicted before events happen @noushka05 like so called experts claim they can do (yes so called experts believe they can see into the future like you keep telling us eg with Brexit).

How many things have so called experts got right around the EU Referendum:

Experts told Cameron that the leave wouldn't win - Leave voters won so they got this wrong.
Forecasted the economy would crash if leave voters won - the economy done the opposite and grew, so they got this wrong to.
The pound would crash - the pound is doing well at the moment and has admittedly had a few ups and downs but is now rising again - experts I would say got this wrong.
The above predictions were just on the event of a vote leave nothing else, they didn't make these predictions on the UK triggering Article 50 they were solely on the outcome of the EU Referendum nothing else.

Now we move to America, so called Experts predicted that Donald Trump couldn't possibly win the American Presidential elections - he did and they got this wrong.

*Why Experts Always Seem To Get It Wrong*
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsat...-get-it-wrong/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Facts by whom?
> Experts are very bad at getting things right, so why should I believe them?
> 
> FACTS can't be predicted before events happen @noushka05 like so called experts claim they can do (yes experts believe they can see into the future like you keep telling us eg with Brexit).
> 
> *Why Experts Always Seem To Get It Wrong*
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsat...-get-it-wrong/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


Argue all you like, those facts are irrefutable. Even common sense should tell you that if you take away affordable housing, cut the benefit lifeline it will have dire consequences.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> We haven't left yet and it's still going into EU coffers for a couple of years


But all the leavers who lied about giving that money to the NHS voted AGAINST it. You've been conned. The NHS isnt getting a penny & we're going to be paying a lot more coffers to the EU soon


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Argue all you like, those facts are irrefutable. Even common sense should tell you that if you take away affordable housing, cut the benefit lifeline it will have dire consequences.


Like these so called facts @noushka05:
How many things have so called experts got right around the EU Referendum results:

Experts told Cameron that the leave wouldn't win - Leave voters won so they got this wrong.
Forecasted the economy would crash if leave voters won - the economy done the opposite and grew, so they got this wrong to.
The pound would crash - the pound is doing well at the moment and has admittedly had a few ups and downs but is now rising again - experts I would say got this wrong.
The above predictions were just on the event of a vote leave nothing else, they didn't make these predictions on the UK triggering Article 50 they were solely on the outcome of the EU Referendum nothing else.

Now we move to America, so called Experts predicted that Donald Trump couldn't possibly win the American Presidential elections - he did and they got this wrong.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> But all the leavers who lied about giving that money to the NHS voted AGAINST it. You've been conned. The NHS isnt getting a penny & we're going to be paying a lot more coffers to the EU soon


Oh back to the big red bus.
MP's voted against this amendment last week so the Government won't be held accountable regarding this pledge.

I didn't cast my vote because of this pledge @noushka05 so no I didn't get conned.


----------



## noushka05

;


Zaros said:


> I read a short piece in the Guardian the other day that told the story of 9 year old Suki, a little girl who was forced to walk 11 miles each day just to fetch two buckets of water for her crippled mother.
> 
> And I couldn't help thinking she should move!


Heartbreaking story. And this awful woman in the picture is supposed to be a practising Christian. Where are her Christian values?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Like these so called facts @noushka05:
> How many things have so called experts got right around the EU Referendum results:
> 
> Experts told Cameron that the leave wouldn't win - Leave voters won so they got this wrong.
> Forecasted the economy would crash if leave voters won - the economy done the opposite and grew, so they got this wrong to.
> The pound would crash - the pound is doing well at the moment and has admittedly had a few ups and downs but is now rising again - experts I would say got this wrong.
> The above predictions were just on the event of a vote leave nothing else, they didn't make these predictions on the UK triggering Article 50 they were solely on the outcome of the EU Referendum nothing else.
> 
> Now we move to America, so called Experts predicted that Donald Trump couldn't possibly win the American Presidential elections - he did and they got this wrong.


They were predictions not facts. Blimey!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> They were predictions not facts. Blimey!


You said they were facts, go back in this thread. You said that the experts couldn't possibly been wrong, look back and you will see. For 7 months now you have been telling us these are facts and now you back down saying they were just predictions.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Oh back to the big red bus.
> MP's voted against this amendment last week so the Government won't be held accountable regarding this pledge.
> 
> I didn't cast my vote because of this pledge @noushka05 so no I didn't get conned.


No, you might not have voted on this pledge but a lot of people did! But, you're ok that they lied & are now prepared to see our NHS die.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No, you might not have voted on this pledge but a lot of people did! But, you're ok that they lied & are now prepared to see our NHS die.


Cameron and co lied as well (remain camp) MP's lie at General Elections as well to win.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> You said they were facts, go back in this thread. You said that the experts couldn't possibly been wrong, look back and you will see. For 7 months now you have been telling us these are facts and now you back down saying they were just predictions.


Experts said brexit would be terrible, hard brexit would be a catastrophe and its obvious more then ever how right they are going to be proved.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Cameron and co lied as well (remain camp) MP's lie at General Elections as well to win.


If you believe I listened to a word that liar said - check out my posts


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Experts said brexit would be terrible, hard brexit would be a catastrophe and its obvious more then ever how right they are going to be proved.


Ok. Yeah. Whatever! So called Experts can do this (you are silly for believing them):









More unfounded predictions @noushka05 as Brexit hasn't happened yet so these aren't facts.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Ok. Yeah. Whatever! So called Experts can do this (you are silly for believing them):
> View attachment 300251


It will soon be obvious to all who the silly one is lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> It will soon be obvious to all who the silly one is lol


How can they predict future events @noushka05 as Brexit hasn't happened yet? Do they have a time machine or crystal ball?

If we go off there previous predictions, sorry so called facts they are terribly wrong. But saying that I don't have there magic power of being able to see future events and then get them wrong.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Even common sense should tell you that if you take away affordable housing, cut the benefit lifeline it will have dire consequences.


Where are they cutting affordable housing.?
Every development that is built now, has to have 20 0r 30 % affordable housing on them. In our area most of the developers are putting 30% as it makes it easier for them to get it through planning.

Also, ( but of course this article is in theExpress.)

EXCLUSIVE: 'A new house every 5 minutes' Half of Britain's new homes will be for migrants | UK | News | Express.co.uk


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If you believe I listened to a word that liar said - check out my posts


Ahh but you voted remain you must have believed Cameron and Osborne like you keep telling us we must have believed what Boris, Gove etc said. Don't you think people voted leave for other reasons?


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Where are they cutting affordable housing.?
> Every development that is built now, has to have 20 0r 30 % affordable housing on them. In our area mostof the developers are putting 30% as it makes it easier for them to get is through planning.
> 
> Also, ( but of course this article is in theExpress.
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: 'A new house every 5 minutes' Half of Britain's new homes will be for migrants | UK | News | Express.co.uk


The tories created the homeless crisis not immigrants.

http://news.sky.com/story/uk-breaching-human-rights-over-housing-10343185

*UK 'Breaching Human Rights' Over Housing*
Leading housing charities have claimed the Government is failing to provide people with adequate homes amid a severe crisis.

The UK is in breach of its international human rights duties by failing to provide people with adequate homes in the face of a severe housing crisis, leading charities have claimed.

A reduction in social housing in England and inadequate, unaffordable rental accommodation in the private sector is driving a growing number of families into homelessness, the organisations warn in a report.

Produced by the group Just Fair, whose members include Crisis, Oxfam, Amnesty International, Save the Children and UNICEF UK, the report will be presented at the UN Committee on Economic Cultural and Social Rights later today.

It argues that the fact the number of individuals forced to sleep rough has risen by 55% since 2010 - with 280,000 households at risk of homelessness - is a breach of the UK's international obligations.

Affordable housing - https://www.ft.com/content/882ec61e-c275-11e4-bd9f-00144feab7de

Cuts to benefits - http://policy-practice.oxfam.org.uk...y-cuts-risk-widening-uk-regional-inequalities


----------



## stockwellcat.

Junker isn't running for another term as EU president because he believes the EU is going to be seriously split after the UK leaves the EU. Even Junker has lost faith in the EU's future.

*Jean-Claude Juncker 'doubts EU will remain united during Brexit talks', as he says he will not seek second term*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/11/jean-claude-juncker-doubts-eu-will-remain-united-brexit-talks/amp/?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The tories created the homeless crisis not immigrants.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/uk-breaching-human-rights-over-housing-10343185
> 
> *UK 'Breaching Human Rights' Over Housing*
> Leading housing charities have claimed the Government is failing to provide people with adequate homes amid a severe crisis.
> 
> The UK is in breach of its international human rights duties by failing to provide people with adequate homes in the face of a severe housing crisis, leading charities have claimed.
> 
> A reduction in social housing in England and inadequate, unaffordable rental accommodation in the private sector is driving a growing number of families into homelessness, the organisations warn in a report.
> 
> Produced by the group Just Fair, whose members include Crisis, Oxfam, Amnesty International, Save the Children and UNICEF UK, the report will be presented at the UN Committee on Economic Cultural and Social Rights later today.
> 
> It argues that the fact the number of individuals forced to sleep rough has risen by 55% since 2010 - with 280,000 households at risk of homelessness - is a breach of the UK's international obligations.
> 
> Affordable housing - https://www.ft.com/content/882ec61e-c275-11e4-bd9f-00144feab7de
> 
> Cuts to benefits - http://policy-practice.oxfam.org.uk...y-cuts-risk-widening-uk-regional-inequalities


You keep blaming the Tories for everything. You do know there was a housing crisis during the Labour Government years and what did they do to solve it? Nothing.
Under this Tory Government more social housing homes have been built by Housing Associations, 20% of all new build homes are social housing the rest are sold.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> The tories created the homeless crisis not immigrants.


Please read my post correctly noushka, I didn't say anyone created the homeless crisis, I just pointed that that affordable houses where being built, (see below) as you had implied otherwise in your post .
Also as usual, you never answered my question..



Honeys mum said:


> Where are they cutting affordable housing.?
> Every development that is built now, has to have 20 0r 30 % affordable housing on them. In our area mostof the developers are putting 30% as it makes it easier for them to get is through planning.


----------



## Zaros

Honeys mum said:


> .
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: 'A new house every 5 minutes' Half of Britain's new homes will be for migrants | UK | News | Express.co.uk


This article has appeared in several newspapers. It's just the media adding a little more propaganda to the already mounting hysteria which in turn licences hate and resentment.

Britain is fast becoming Trump country!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Ahh but you voted remain you must have believed Cameron and Osborne like you keep telling us we must have believed what Boris, Gove etc said. Don't you think people voted leave for other reasons?


You have got to be joking:Hilarious My lovely Grandad always used to say 'never trust a tory'. And I never have lol

I said many times, I put my faith in experts & the progressive camp. Caroline Lucas is one politician who has cast iron integrity. I would trust her with my life.


----------



## rona

Honeys mum said:


> I just pointed that that affordable houses where being built,


In my area, nothing but a rabbit hutch is affordable to those on minimum wage, a garage would cost you £20,000, so they are offering many houses under shared ownership schemes. There are varying percentages you can buy


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You have got to be joking:Hilarious My lovely Grandad always used to say 'never trust a tory'. And I never have lol
> 
> I said many times, I put my faith in experts & the progressive camp. Caroline Lucas is one politician who has cast iron integrity. I would trust her with my life.


Do you see how silly this arguement is then? I hope so.


----------



## noushka05

Honesys mum said:


> Please read my post correctly noushka, I didn't say anyone created the homeless crisis, I just pointed that that affordable houses where being built, (see below) as you had implied otherwise in your post otherwise.
> Also as usual, you never answered my question.


Sorry for the misunderstanding. I assumed this was about which group was responsible for the housing crisis. Will these houses they are building actually _be _affordable this tim_e?_


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> This article has appeared in several newspapers. It's just the media adding a little more propaganda to the already mounting hysteria which in turn licences hate and resentment.
> 
> Britain is fast becoming Trump country!


Yes, it most certainly is. And the right wing press have a lot to answer for


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Experts have got things wrong so many times I kind of take what they say with a pinch of salt


If that's true, then why do you assert your sources are correct whilst those of others are catastrophically wrong?:Wideyed


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Do you see how silly this arguement is then? I hope so.


Yes I do. Hence why I wanted to be clear - NO ONE in either of the right wing camps could ever have influenced my decision - because they are ALL a bunch of crooks & liars. Hope we're clear now.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> If that's true, then why do you assert your sources are correct whilst those of others are catastrophically wrong?:Wideyed


Good point lol


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I'm sure it will.At least as far as a tax haven for mega rich multinationals are concerned.
> 
> *I wonder what Trump will expect in return? *
> 
> The thought horrifies me.


EVERYTHING.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I'll just leave this here
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ing-policies-bird-population?CMP=share_btn_fb





noushka05 said:


> CAP is atrocious. No one could possibly deny that - it desperately needs reforming. But the EUs Birds & Habitat Directive is one of the most important pieces of conservation legislation in the world. The government themselves. have made it clear they are lighting a bonfire with environmental legislation, Rona.
> 
> I know David Attenborough is an intellectual who's opinion you respect - I'm sure we can both admit he knows a hell of a lot more than you or I do.
> 
> *David Attenborough 'saddened' over UK's decision to leave the EU*
> *The conservationist reveals his concerns over the impact Brexit will have on the environment*
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/science/david-attenborough-saddened-over-uks-8291992
> 
> Despite never explicitly revealing whether he voted to remain or stay, Sir David reflected on the impact the decision would have on green policies, saying: "That is sad. Swallows aren't members of the union, and migrant birds and so on."
> 
> One of his main concerns was whether Britain will carry on enacting the EU's Birds and Habitats Directive
> 
> "One just hopes that collaboration on these issues, conservation issues, will transcend political divisions," he said
> 
> The EU's Birds and Habitats Directive are two directives in relation to wildlife and nature conservation. It aims to protect some 220 habitats and approximately 1,000 species.
> 
> These species and habitats are considered to be of European interest, and the directives unite countries to protect and give regular reports on them.
> 
> Remain campaigners have warned that leaving the EU would have detrimental affects on the environment. Caroline Lucas, the Greens' only MP, said: "This decision could be devastating for the environment.
> 
> "The EU has been at the forefront of global action on climate change and Britain has been leading that push. [Friday's] decision not only undermines our standing in the international community, but represents a huge gamble with our own green energy targets and performance.
> 
> It stated: "With some of the €700 million (£540 million) of EU funding that goes to support the environment and rural areas supporting the maintenance and restoration of hedgerows, ditches, stone walls and our vital uplands, the very fabric of our countryside is being supported by our membership"
> 
> Meanwhile in an post-referendum statement, Friends of the Earth said the group could "no longer rely on the EU to protect our nature and habitats."


Timely. https://www.ft.com/content/83cf8ff0-eef0-11e6-ba01-119a44939bb6

The match has been struck

And this isn't just a catastrophe for the Great Crested Newt, this is a catastrophe for our whole environment.

*Developers set for Brexit triumph over great crested newt. *
*
EU law on natural habitats faces axe to speed up building plans.*


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Imagine if all those foreigners went on strike.


@cheekyscrip: as I am sure you know, ''all those foreigners'' are planning a strike on 20 February 2017. The Poles already went on strike 20 February 2015 as far as I remember?


----------



## noushka05

Evidence proves immigration is a GOOD thing.


----------



## KittenKong

Still believe the Farage form of Brexit is, "The will of the people"?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/11/theresa-may-hard-brexit-public-backlash-icm-poll


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> In my area, nothing but a rabbit hutch is affordable to those on minimum wage, a garage would cost you £20,000, so they are offering many houses under shared ownership schemes. There are varying percentages you can buy


My eldest and his girlfriend are in the process of buying their first house. He says that scheme is one big con.


----------



## KittenKong

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/166615


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> - check out my posts


It would take a week to do that @noushka05!


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.change.org/p/eu-offer-e...utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> My eldest and his girlfriend are in the process of buying their first house. He says that scheme is one big con.


A few years back my son and g/f looked into that and, like your boy, were not impressed with the conditions of the scheme...tho' I don't know the details.. So they have moved out of London and bought in Kent.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> It would take a week to do that @noushka05!


I didnt take me very long to find these 



noushka05 said:


> .. And it amazes me how many people seemed to be swayed by whether they like Cameron, or Farage or Johnson as well  The progressive camp, Green NGOs, the NHA Party etc have swayed me. The EU offers us many benefits. Legislation which protects the air we breath, our seas, wildlife, environment,human rights, workers rights, food standards & so on. Johnson, Gove, Farage & co believe in deregulation & an unfettered free market. The EU is a far from perfect, but being left in the hands of these people terrifies me.
> 
> i
> 
> .





noushka05 said:


> The progressive campaign isn't based on fear, lies & hate mongering. They don't use the devisive, scaremongering tactics favoured by the right. Have a look at what they are saying
> 
> And be aware of the consequences of what happens if we do brexit. Have you heard of Article 50 ? http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/b...-horror-why-you-need-to-know-about-article-50
> 
> http://infacts.org/7-reasons-eu-exit-wont-be-easy/





noushka05 said:


> The official IN campaign is split into two very seperate groups. Camerons with his usual politics of fear & blame. And the progressive group - which is a factual based campaign of hope. I don't know which side of the campaign your abusers come from, but whichever, abusing people is out of order.
> 
> .


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 300258
> 
> 
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/166615


Again another attempt to disrupt and frustrate the will of the people. Not worried though if it reaches its target it will only be heard in Westminster Hall and get debated on and forgotten about.

There were reasons why people didn't get to vote. Rules are rules. The Referendum was legitimate.

Edited:
The expiry time on this petition is almost up @KittenKong (9th March 2017 is the deadline date) it's an old one.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Again another attempt to disrupt and frustrate the will of the people. Not worried though if it reaches its target it will only be heard in Westminster Hall and get debated on and forgotten about.
> 
> There were reasons why people didn't get to vote. Rules are rules. The Referendum was legitimate.
> 
> Edited:
> The expiry time on this petition is almost up @KittenKong (9th March 2017 is the deadline date) it's an old one.


Whose being pessimistic now? Still time to sign it if you wish.

We still live in a free country you know.

The will of the Scottish people is being ignored if you want to use that argument yet you don't believe they should have a right to another independence referendum.

Me thinks some are scared it could win this time!

Think you can't stand the growing opposition to Brexit, now you are holding us response for hold ups.

The whole UK wasn't going to rejoice in a patriotic glory to being deprived of its rights as citizens of Europe and the benefits we've enjoyed just to wave the flag and sing, "Land of hope and glory".

More like, "Land of no hope and poverty" more like.

Would you like Mr Trump to tell you you're now a citizen of his America?

Why should we be told we're no longer citizens of Europe?

Yes, I am aware the UK will get its Hard Brexit it desires.

Just don't expect us shut up and accept it.

Opposition to it will surely grow, and grow it sure will.


----------



## stockwellcat.

> Why should we be told we're no longer citizens of Europe?


We will still be citizens of Europe after the UK has left the EU. What are you on about with this comment? We aren't leaving Europe, we are leaving the EU.

Scotland is a member of the United Kingdom not the EU, they aren't even listed as an EU country the UK is. So there arguement that they are being forced out of the EU against there will is absolute nonescene (read what is said above).

Same old arguements repeated over and over again @KittenKong.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Think you can't stand the growing opposition to Brexit, now you are holding us response for hold ups.


What growing opposition?
There is still a way lower amount of people opposing Brexit than there is wanting Brexit.

Personally I am not scared of anything @KittenKong. The process of leaving has started with the bill being voted through Parliament last week with no amendments and a very strong majority for the article 50 bill itself. The Government are still on course to trigger Article 50 before the 31st March 2017. The House of Lords only have 2 debating days on the Article 50 bill and one whole day on voting, I doubt very much they will stand in the way of the bill despite what the press says.

Even Junker is losing confidence in the EU being united after the UK leaves in 2019 and has said he is not standing for another term as President of the EU.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> My eldest and his girlfriend are in the process of buying their first house. He says that scheme is one big con.


 My DD bought a flat this way . She had no chance otherwise. It was through a housing association so not sure if its the same as a government one. She has to pay a low rent on the half she doesn't own . She wanted to buy them out and own all of it but was told that she would only receive half of the profit and they would keep the rest . Without all the profit , she can't buy them out and if she wants to moves , she still wont be able to buy another flat . 

good luck to your son and girlfriend and hope their house hunting goes well .


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> What growing opposition?
> There is still a way lower amount of people opposing Brexit than there is wanting Brexit.
> 
> Personally I am not scared of anything @KittenKong. The process of leaving has started with the bill being voted through Parliament last week with no amendments and a very strong majority for the article 50 bill itself. The Government are still on course to trigger Article 50 before the 31st March 2017. The House of Lords only have 2 debating days on the Article 50 bill and one whole day on voting, I doubt very much they will stand in the way of the bill despite what the press says.
> *
> Even Junker is losing confidence in the EU being united after the UK leaves in 2019 and has said he is not standing for another term as President of the EU.*


Juncker is warning of possible UK tactics, sowing disunity in the EU by making offers to individual countries that will tempt them to break ranks with the others.

Do you think that is a very honourable way for us to behave in negotiations with friends and trading partners?


----------



## kimthecat

@Arnie83 Is the actually UK doing that ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Juncker is warning of possible UK tactics, sowing disunity in the EU by making offers to individual countries that will tempt them to break ranks with the others.
> 
> Do you think that is a very honourable way for us to behave in negotiations with friends and trading partners?


What makes you think it's the UK that is going to do this?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> @Arnie83 Is the actually UK doing that ?


Seems significant May went to meet the Polish leader for example.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Seems significant May went to meet the Polish leader for example.


That doesn't mean anything though, TM has met the Irish PM, German Chancellor, Spainish PM etc doesn't mean she intends to seek separate trade deals. They wouldn't be possible anyway as the EU is a trading block and they have made this clear that the UK cannot seek separate trade deals with the countries inside the EU. Have you thought that the countries inside the EU are not confident about the EU's stragedy after all and think the EU isn't working for them?


----------



## KittenKong

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 300264
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area


Scotland are still not on the list of Countries inside the EEA or EFTA the United Kingdom is. Scotland would have to leave the United Kingdom first but the PM has said no Scottish Independence Referendum's until after the 2020 General Elections.

List of EEA/EFTA members:

Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
*United Kingdom*
3 EFTA states

Iceland
Liechtenstein
Norway
1 EU state with provisional membership

Croatia
Just pointing FACTS out that's all.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Seems significant May went to meet the Polish leader for example.


maybe she is or maybe Junkers is sh*t stirring. I wish we knew .


----------



## Happy Paws2

But who ever TM gets to trade with us it's not going to be Free as we were getting with the EU, it could cost us a lot more in the long term, so we are saving nothing.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

I wish the referendum had yielded a large majority, not the borderline result it did. It would make a lot of what has followed easier to accept.


----------



## KittenKong

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I wish the referendum had yielded a large majority, not the result it did. It would make a lot of what has followed easier to accept.


With all this opposition imagine what it's going to be like when the UK actually leaves!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Who ever TM get to trade with us it's going to us a lot of money, not like the free trade we have with the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Obviously some countries have more interest to bargain with UK, like Poland or Spain.
But as to " we are still in Europe"...oh, so is Moscow? So what of it?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 300271


It's a bit late for that.
The process has already begun.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 300272
> View attachment 300273
> View attachment 300274
> View attachment 300275


it's to late now, sorry it say we are out, like it or not.



stockwellcat said:


> It's a bit late for that.
> The process has already begun.
> View attachment 300276


I know it's to late now, but I don't have to like it.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> it's to late now, sorry it say we are out, like it or not.
> 
> I know it's to late now, but I don't have to like it.


Yes, we know. If there's growing opposition to May's hard Brexit stance it's a start.

She is ignoring the 48% of voters, that number will surely grow when the reality of Brexit becomes apparent.

Don't forget the Tories won the 1987 General Election with the Poll Tax clearly in its manifesto.

Yes, it's probably too late to reverse Brexit but could eventually result in the EEA compromise.

Never give up hope I say!


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Yes, we know. If there's growing opposition to May's hard Brexit stance it's a start.
> 
> Never give up hope I say!


We have lost now and there nothing we can do, I just hope we don't live to regret what the leavers have done to us, hopefully I won't be around when the birds come home to roost.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> We have lost now and there nothing we can do, I just hope we don't live to regret what the leavers have done to us, hopefully I won't be around when the birds come home to roost.


Believe me, I've expressed and have felt similar pessimism but to see the growing opposition and realising you're not alone in feeling this way certainly lifts one's spirits up.

Brexit will cause divisions between Brexiteers when it happens. At least we'll remain united in our opposition.

Could work in our favour in the years to come.

This feedback I got from someone on the Sabre site on mentioning the Edinburgh demo cheered me up big time as well:


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> @Arnie83 Is the actually UK doing that ?





stockwellcat said:


> What makes you think it's the UK that is going to do this?


The UK is not actually doing that yet, at least overtly, but it is what has caused Juncker's worry about unity that was mentioned in the previous post by Stockwellcat.



stockwellcat said:


> Even Junker is losing confidence in the EU being united after the UK leaves in 2019


Juncker's concern is for the negotiations, not for post-Brexit, though such a tactic might well damage the EU in the longer term.



Juncker said:


> The other EU 27 don't know it yet, but the Brits know very well how they can tackle this. They could promise country A this, country B that and country C something else and the end game is that there is not united European front.


I hope that we don't indulge in such tactics, since they would not be indicative of trying to reach the best agreement for both parties - as we are repeatedly told is what should happen - but, rather, of a competition where we are trying to win at the EU's expense.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Seems significant May went to meet the Polish leader for example.


She's met loads of leaders, why is that one significant?
I'd think she was being very remiss if she didn't work closely with someone who has nearly a million of their countrymen in this country.

Shows she's willing to work things out as far as I can see, Apparently, it was a very successful meeting on both sides


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong



> Brexit will cause divisions between Brexiteers when it happens. At least we'll remain united in our opposition.
> 
> Could work in our favour in the years to come.


Splits and divisions for years to come , won't work in any ones favour . It's the uncertainty and splits that causes problems such as the pound and shares falling , countries wary of investing .


----------



## kimthecat

It seems Brexit is going to happen , if you had the choice who would you have chosen( from any party ) instead of May to lead us out of it .


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> She's met loads of leaders, why is that one significant?.....
> 
> , Apparently, it was a very successful meeting on both sides


Exactly!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Exactly!


So you want her to fail us?

Whatever she does she can't win with some


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> It seems Brexit is going to happen , if you had the choice who would you have chosen( from any party ) instead of May to lead us out of it .


That's easy, someone prepared to listen to both sides and reach a compromise that's satisfactory for both sides, (though some will still object of course).

EEA membership is a good example of enjoying many EU benefits without being an EU member as an example.

Caroline Lucas and Nicola Sturgeon would be my personal choices. Yes, they aren't UK leaders, then neither is Nigel Farage who isn't even an MP!

The way it looks in the UK politically at the moment you'd think Farage had cast a spell over May and indeed Corbyn.

Either that, or they're adopting his ideas out of fear.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> So you want her to fail us?
> 
> Whatever she does she can't win with some


I never actually said that.

What I don't want to see is politicians causing splits within the EU to benefit only the UK, or indeed an individual country within the block.

Junker's concerns are perfectly understandable.

I don't want the UK to find itself in competition with former allies. Unfortunately with Brexit it will be.

As I understand it, the Polish leader is rather right wing herself?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I never actually said that.


You keep saying that or very similar


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You keep saying that or very similar


Back to "Britain Haters" are we?

I want the UK to succeed. It won't with a hard Brexit.....


----------



## leashedForLife

.
claiming that anyone who voted Remain "wants to see the U.K. fail" is not only insulting, but just plain illogical. 
.
anyone who *Had* a vote obv lives in the U-K, & why would they want to shoot themselves in the foot, wishing economic & social disasters on their home country?
.
there's no way that they'd remain unafffected & float serenely over the disaster, like a hot-air balloon over a bombed city!
They'd be affected, too. Why would they *want* economic downturns, a depreciated currency, businesses moving to other countries / job losses, & all the rest of the sorry long-tail?
.
.
.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Brexiting is now illegal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

samuelsmiles said:


> Brexiting is now illegal.


Well send me to prison then  because the UK is Brexiting


----------



## kimthecat

@samuelsmiles 

Has any one told Joey ?


----------



## MollySmith

samuelsmiles said:


> Brexiting is now illegal.


37 mins until curfew for some


----------



## kimthecat

@MollySmith I'm under curfew , I still use imperial weights ! :Nailbiting


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> So you want her to fail us?
> 
> Whatever she does she can't win with some


I think that she has to make the best of the situation that's all. And yes, actually I'll be honest and say that there is part of me that does want to see it all go wrong because I'm truly sick of the leavers saying how great 'it' all is when actually I've not seen anything great yet. Maybe it's like a bus, all the amazing things that you all voted for will happen at once and we'll be blinded by the brilliance.

But god it's _*boring*_ waiting, you know. At least with Trump you know it's a volley of farting promises, he was open about what a racist bell end he is. Farage, Johnson and the muppets from leave have screwed off on a cushy number and none of the 'promises' they spewed are forthcoming. Very little from remain was true, maybe somewhere around page 240sih we may have all agreed that the muppets in charge are [email protected] and liers but at least in the EU we had ... oh FFS who cares what we had in the EU, we don't have it anymore. Yet when I query this tedious _boring_ wait, empty promises and general frustration, I get it online earache from @stockwellcat and his 'oh I love your post let's like it asap cos you're in my gang' 'Brexit bad boys' saying it was the Remain side's fault with no evidence just more verbal spewing that doesn't prove anything with accompanying pointless emojis to decorate the green and white sea of 264 pages blah. Really as anyone actually learned anything from 264 pages of cliques liking each other's posts. Leave really do need to grow a pair and take some responsibility and prove to remain that this was right. I can't see any reason why it was right so I'm still yawningly waiting for someone to say 'woohoo it's double pay for graphic designers' or something brilliant. I don't give a flying birds bollocks about I voted in June now. Just someone sort this sh*t out and get on with it.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> @MollySmith I'm under curfew , I still use imperial weights ! :Nailbiting


And miles? Quick type like fury.... you can do it! I just did!


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

I thought it might interest people to know that this the third longest thread in the history of General Chat.... no? Okay then, I'll think up a better 'Fact of the Day' before curfew tomorrow!


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> I don't give a flying birds bollocks about I voted in June now. Just someone sort this sh*t out and get on with it.


 Not heard that expression before . Yeah I like it !

TBF its been remainers who have been trying to hold up the process . We have another two years to go , another two years of rows and arguments . I think I'll emigrate . :Woot

@Ceiling Kitty Yay! Below is my post on page 107

What a thread! This could have broken the record for the longest thread PF.

reminds me of the Slade song Mama were all crazy now

#2122 kimthecat, Jul 4, 2016


----------



## stockwellcat.

MollySmith said:


> I think that she has to make the best of the situation that's all. And yes, actually I'll be honest and say that there is part of me that does want to see it all go wrong because I'm truly sick of the leavers saying how great 'it' all is when actually I've not seen anything great yet. Maybe it's like a bus, all the amazing things that you all voted for will happen at once and we'll be blinded by the brilliance.
> 
> But god it's _*boring*_ waiting, you know. At least with Trump you know it's a volley of farting promises, he was open about what a racist bell end he is. Farage, Johnson and the muppets from leave have screwed off on a cushy number and none of the 'promises' they spewed are forthcoming. Very little from remain was true, maybe somewhere around page 240sih we may have all agreed that the muppets in charge are [email protected] and liers but at least in the EU we had ... oh FFS who cares what we had in the EU, we don't have it anymore. Yet when I query this tedious _boring_ wait, empty promises and general frustration, I get it online earache from @stockwellcat and his 'oh I love your post let's like it asap cos you're in my gang' 'Brexit bad boys' saying it was the Remain side's fault with no evidence just more verbal spewing that doesn't prove anything with accompanying pointless emojis to decorate the green and white sea of 264 pages blah. Really as anyone actually learned anything from 264 pages of cliques liking each other's posts. Leave really do need to grow a pair and take some responsibility and prove to remain that this was right. I can't see any reason why it was right so I'm still yawningly waiting for someone to say 'woohoo it's double pay for graphic designers' or something brilliant. I don't give a flying birds bollocks about I voted in June now. Just someone sort this sh*t out and get on with it.


So your verbal attack was at me 

Well we have had to put with 265 pages of remainers blahing on and on repeating themselves a million times.

@MollySmith I am really refraining from am saying anything to you. You put me on ignore last night and got my response but you continue to verbally attack me. It is you that is now getting personal like singling me out.

Seriously remainers grow up yourselves it like listening to a bunch of children who haven't got there own way.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Not heard that expression before . Yeah I like it !
> 
> TBF its been remainers who have been trying to hold up the process . We have another two years to go , another two years of rows and arguments . I think I'll emigrate . :Woot
> 
> @Ceiling Kitty Yay! Below is my post on page 107
> 
> What a thread! This could have broken the record for the longest thread PF.
> 
> reminds me of the Slade song Mama were all crazy now
> 
> #2122 kimthecat, Jul 4, 2016


TBF Leave also had no plan if Remain challenged and presumed that the large percentage who voted remain would go quietly into the sunset to a remote pro EU island, taking their fancy dress lederhosen and Dutch bikes with them.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

stockwellcat said:


> So your verbal attack was at me
> 
> Well we have had to put with 265 pages of remainers blahing on and on repeating themselves a million times.
> 
> @MollySmith I am really refraining from am saying anything to you. You put me on ignore last night and got my response but you continue to verbally attack me. It is you that is now getting personal like singling me out.
> 
> Seriously remainers grow up yourselves it like listening to a bunch of children who haven't got there own way.


I don't think all 265 pages are that - some of them were pre-referendum!


----------



## stuaz

Glad I am not the only one who has spotted the "cliche liking" going on (on both sides) :Hilarious


----------



## Jonescat

stockwellcat said:


> Well we have had to put with 265 pages of remainers blahing on and on repeating themselves a million times........


 Fairly sure that the leavers have done their fair share of it!



stockwellcat said:


> Seriously remainers grow up yourselves it like listening to a bunch of children who haven't got there own way.


 As opposed to their older siblings crowing about getting to stay up later than them?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I don't think all 265 pages are that - some of them were pre-referendum!


touché


----------



## stockwellcat.

stuaz said:


> Glad I am not the only one who has spotted the "cliche liking" going on (on both sides) :Hilarious


Oops I just done it :Hilarious


----------



## MollySmith

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I don't think all 265 pages are that - some of them were pre-referendum!


Was there a pre-referendum life? I don't recall it :Arghh:Arghh:Arghh


----------



## MollySmith

stuaz said:


> Glad I am not the only one who has spotted the "cliche liking" going on (on both sides) :Hilarious


Cor, you got a like from both sides, you are blessed.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Glad I am not the only one who has spotted the "cliche liking" going on (on both sides) :Hilarious


Think you ateq wrong. At least I remember" liking" many of Leave posts of they were constructive or funny.
@Satori posts, @stockwellcat posts for example and many others.
I have my own clique.Very exclusive.
Number of members limited.
To one. Mustn't apply.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Think you ateq wrong. At least I remember" liking" many of Leave posts of they were constructive or funny.
> @Satori posts, @stockwellcat posts for example and many others.
> I have my own clique.Very exclusive.
> Number of members limited.
> To one. Mustn't apply.


When i was thinking of the leave cliche I wasnt thinking you


----------



## stockwellcat.

I really don't care what you think of me because of the way I voted on the 23rd June 2016 and I honestly don't care how you voted anymore. That was 7 months ago, this is now. The only animosity and hostility I have seen over Brexit is online. In real life everyone are just getting on with life and Brexit isn't even mentioned in public (I have seen no one openly talking about it). In my own opinion it is time to move on and make this work in the best interests of everyone in the UK and the EU.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> I really don't care what you think of me because of the way I voted on the 23rd June 2016 and I honestly don't care how you voted anymore. That was 7 months ago, this is now. The only animosity and hostility I have seen over Brexit is online. In real life everyone are just getting on with life and Brexit isn't even mentioned in public (I have seen no one openly talking about it). In my own opinion it is time to move on and make this work in the best interests of everyone in the UK and the EU.


Touche


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Touche


Mine has the line above the e though 
Touché.

I meant it in this context with @Ceiling Kitty's comment:


> to admit that an opponent in an argument has made a good point


----------



## Jonescat

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ttack-prison-whistleblowers-media-journalists


cheekyscrip said:


> Just heard it on BBC. Campaigners for freedom of speech are impressed, Russia and China do that but Britain?
> So no more leaks or else!
> 
> No.more criticism from hostile press.
> Murdoch news for everyone!!!
> 
> The new Britain sounds familiar....


I know it is a few pages later but is this what you heard about?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ttack-prison-whistleblowers-media-journalists


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I really don't care what you think of me because of the way I voted on the 23rd June 2016 and I honestly don't care how you voted anymore. That was 7 months ago, this is now. The only animosity and hostility I have seen over Brexit is online. In real life everyone are just getting on with life and Brexit isn't even mentioned in public (I have seen no one openly talking about it). In my own opinion it is time to move on and make this work in the best interests of everyone in the UK and the EU.


1. Try to go out , it is quite an eye opener.

2. You cannot make it work. I cannot make it work. Wishful thinking cannot make it work.
Just because you want it or just because, it is not gonna happen...usually we learn that before we are 16.

It will work, of course for fat cats on the top, when corp tax gets slashed.
They bother very little about people like you, me or our NHS. They have it covered.
Ot is easier to rule divided society, pitch different groups against each other, feed them with Murdoch press and TV, at the same time gagging the independent journalism.

Welcome to Little Trumpton.

I am absolutely sure that at least a few posters here would do very well on Brexit.
But then there were always those who did well even on the war.

Brexit will bring not only economic downturn but lots of discontent.
You think Scotland, NI, even Gibraltar can be just swept under the carpet?
Currently RBS seems to be axing 15000 jobs... To cover loses.

If 90% wanted it then you can say: Will of the people.
It was split vote and we are not getting " middle of the way" solution but the most extreme version...

There was no consideration for 48% of voters at all.

You want them to be happy?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jonescat said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ttack-prison-whistleblowers-media-journalists
> 
> I know it is a few pages later but is this what you heard about?
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ttack-prison-whistleblowers-media-journalists


No. It was discussed on BBC News last night. The legislation.

Funny that now whether price rises, or job cuts, or even chocolate shrinkage Brexit is not mentioned.
Even when it is obvious.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> 1. Try to go out , it is quite an eye opener.


I do get out every day most of the time to work, no one is talking about Brexit in public, they may well do in Gibraltar 

You talk about job loses in banks but many jobs are being created with companies relocating to the UK so defeats the object of the arguement you are trying to make  RBS announced they were making job cuts before the Referendum so honestly that debate is a no go because the job losses were pre-forecasted like Lloyd's Banking Groups. This is like Jamie Oliver saying Brexit affected his businesses when in actual fact it was down to poor management that he had to close his restaurants.

Sorry I don't live in Trumpton. By the way which character are you off that silly program?


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> 1. Try to go out , it is quite an eye opener.
> 
> 2. You cannot make it work. I cannot make it work. Wishful thinking cannot make it work.
> Just because you want it or just because, it is not gonna happen...usually we learn that before we are 16.
> 
> It will work, of course for fat cats on the top, when corp tax gets slashed.
> They bother very little about people like you, me or our NHS. They have it covered.
> Ot is easier to rule divided society, pitch different groups against each other, feed them with Murdoch press and TV, at the same time gagging the independent journalism.
> 
> Welcome to Little Trumpton.
> 
> I am absolutely sure that at least a few posters here would do very well on Brexit.
> But then there were always those who did well even on the war.
> 
> Brexit will bring not only economic downturn but lots of discontent.
> You think Scotland, NI, even Gibraltar can be just swept under the carpet?
> Currently RBS seems to be axing 15000 jobs... To cover loses.
> 
> If 90% wanted it then you can say: Will of the people.
> It was split vote and we are not getting " middle of the way" solution but the most extreme version...
> 
> There was no consideration for 48% of voters at all.
> 
> You want them to be happy?


Rbs were making cuts long before brexit!
My view is, and this refers to any business that can't make it pay, it's not down to the tax payer to subsidise such business.


----------



## kimthecat

stuaz said:


> Glad I am not the only one who has spotted the "cliche liking" going on (on both sides) :Hilarious


 Well it would , wouldn't it .  You're more likely to agree with someone who voted he same as you . I like a post because I agree with it and it saves me posting an I agree with you post .


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> So your verbal attack was at me
> 
> Well we have had to put with 265 pages of remainers blahing on and on repeating themselves a million times.
> 
> @MollySmith
> 
> Seriously remainers grow up yourselves it like listening to a bunch of children who haven't got there own way.


Get it right Stockwell!
SPOILT children


----------



## 1290423

stuaz said:


> When i was thinking of the leave cliche I wasnt thinking you


Welcome to pet forums


----------



## leashedForLife

.
how would it be shocking that ppl whose opinions generally agree on a specific topic, would frequently agree with one anothers' posts on that topic?

it would actually be surprising if individuals who agree in their overall positions on an issue, did *NOT* agree with most of their comments on that mutual topic -
wouldn't it?
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
also, as an aside, i think the term U're looking for is 'clicque', a subset of individuals perceived by outsiders as members of an exclusive group...
not __cliche'__ meaning a much-used term, expression, or saying perceived as worn-out, common, or over-used.
.
.
.


----------



## Pawscrossed

DT said:


> Get it right Stockwell!
> SPOILT children


Oh well that's me too, very spoilt but honest. This thread really is terribly dull and predictable!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Back to "Britain Haters" are we?
> 
> I want the UK to succeed. It won't with a hard Brexit.....


I hope you've not been talking the country down again?!! 



These are spot on.

Why people shouldn't laugh at Jacob Rees-Mogg & Boris Johnson. I'm only amazed people could be fooled by them tbqh. 'Lovable buffoon' my ass - Johnson is sinister - as is Mogg!

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/who_is_jacob_rees_mogg_1_4883424?platform=hootsuite


----------



## Pawscrossed

stockwellcat said:


> So your verbal attack was at me
> 
> Well we have had to put with 265 pages of remainers blahing on and on repeating themselves a million times.
> 
> @MollySmith I am really refraining from am saying anything to you. You put me on ignore last night and got my response but you continue to verbally attack me. It is you that is now getting personal like singling me out.
> 
> Seriously remainers grow up yourselves it like listening to a bunch of children who haven't got there own way.


I read the post as 'and the Brexit bad boys' which seems to read that there is more than one of you and there certainly is!! And I reckon you both agree that both neither of you care who voted how in June. Sweet.

I think it's hilarious post. This thread is so divided that all it is doing is bashing by clique. I've stayed off cos I know what is going to be and none of it is contructive. And yes people where I live and work talk about Brexit a lot too. It matters a lot. I work in academia and it affects us terribly, intakes from EU students have dropped which is so sad, they had the chance to be wonderful contributors to science and technology. This will have issues on education that we can deliver and our jobs too, to investment in skills in research that saves lives and I don't see that situation becoming any better once we leave the EU, it's _scares_ people @stockwellcat. With due respect please don't break in here to appease this, you don't work in my area and I trust the heads of the universities around the UK more than leavers, they tend to have more accurate details  It clearly concerns @cheekyscrip and where she lives too, my heart goes out to her. If it mattered to your community perhaps you might spare a thought. It clearly affects @MollySmith and others like @noushka05 too who clearly are passionate about their politics.

Seriously _you are a_ll need[ing] to grow up yourselves it [is] like listening to a bunch of children who haven't got there [their] own way.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Pawscrossed said:


> Oh well that's me too, very spoilt but honest. This thread really is terribly dull and predictable!


Must say here where I live is a bit taboo subject. Like talking about death.
Because if you do it might end up I tears...everyone think the same" what will happen to my children when our jobs are gone?".

Where we will live if cannot pay mortgage and houses are unsellable?

We do not expect more sympathy from British than Dubs children.

Oh, there is " generous offer from Spain".

So childish or not I can at least express my opinions...( just therapeutic)...because 90% have me already on ignore.

@Pawscrossed while few others just stick silly memes and gloat...( for now)
Because they had no arguments to win any debate to start off with...

How barring access to UK work market for EU just to open it for Commowealth? China?
Australia?
USA?
At the same time saying Brexit has main purpose to bring immigration down?

Even admitting it would put immigration before economy.

Then accepting that new deals will come with more visas.
Already announced on the news it would be now easier to bring to UK family members from India, Pakistan and so on.

Australia also mentioned free movement.

China wants visas too.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Pawscrossed said:


> I read the post as 'and the Brexit bad boys' which seems to read that there is more than one of you and there certainly is!! And I reckon you both agree that both neither of you care who voted how in June. Sweet.
> 
> I think it's hilarious post. This thread is so divided that all it is doing is bashing by clique. I've stayed off cos I know what is going to be and none of it is contructive. And yes people where I live and work talk about Brexit a lot too. It matters a lot. I work in academia and it affects us terribly, intakes from EU students have dropped which is so sad, they had the chance to be wonderful contributors to science and technology. This will have issues on education that we can deliver and our jobs too, to investment in skills in research that saves lives and I don't see that situation becoming any better once we leave the EU, it's _scares_ people @stockwellcat. With due respect please don't break in here to appease this, you don't work in my area and I trust the heads of the universities around the UK more than leavers, they tend to have more accurate details  It clearly concerns @cheekyscrip and where she lives too, my heart goes out to her. If it mattered to your community perhaps you might spare a thought. It clearly affects @MollySmith and others like @noushka05 too who clearly are passionate about their politics.
> 
> Seriously _you are a_ll need[ing] to grow up yourselves it [is] like listening to a bunch of children who haven't got there [their] own way.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Pawscrossed

Am I bothered what remainers actually moan about anymore?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mean while back in Trumpton:


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> @Pawscrossed
> 
> Am I bothered what remainers actually moan about anymore?
> View attachment 300339


Yes. As you run out of arguments you stick memes.
Otherwise you will not be around.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*The Article 50 Amendments and how Parliament voted.*

1. Give MPs a veto on the final deal
Rejected
The result was 326-293.

2. Prove if the NHS will get £350m a week
Rejected
The result 337 votes to 288

3. Give Britain a second EU referendum
Rejected
The results 340 votes to 33.

4. Stay in the EU if MPs can't agree
Rejected
The results 336 votes to 88

5. Stop 'excessive' tax cuts for big business
Rejected
The results 336 votes to 289

6. Get every nation's approval BEFORE Article 50
Rejected
The results 332 votes to 62

7. Protect workers' rights
Rejected
The results 336 votes to 291

8. Make Theresa May update MPs every two months
Rejected
The results 333 to 284

9. Give more say to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
Rejected
The results 333 to 27

10. Keep Leave's funding promises for Wales
Rejected 
The results 330 to 267

11. Reveal the Treasury's assessment of Brexit
Rejected
The results 337 to 281

12. Reveal our EU "divorce bill"
Rejected
The results 333 to 79

13. Consult Gibraltar before Article 50
Rejected
The results 338 to 288

14. Preserve rights for people in Northern Ireland
Rejected
The results 327 votes to 288

15. Guarantee EU citizens already here can stay
Rejected
The results 332 votes to 290

16. Stay in Euratom
Rejected
The results 336 votes to 287


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes. As you run out of arguments you stick memes.
> Otherwise you will not be around.


I have not run out of debates.


----------



## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> I read the post as 'and the Brexit bad boys' which seems to read that there is more than one of you and there certainly is!! And I reckon you both agree that both neither of you care who voted how in June. Sweet.
> 
> I think it's hilarious post. This thread is so divided that all it is doing is bashing by clique. I've stayed off cos I know what is going to be and none of it is contructive. And yes people where I live and work talk about Brexit a lot too. It matters a lot. I work in academia and it affects us terribly, intakes from EU students have dropped which is so sad, they had the chance to be wonderful contributors to science and technology. This will have issues on education that we can deliver and our jobs too, to investment in skills in research that saves lives and I don't see that situation becoming any better once we leave the EU, it's _scares_ people @stockwellcat. With due respect please don't break in here to appease this, you don't work in my area and I trust the heads of the universities around the UK more than leavers, they tend to have more accurate details  It clearly concerns @cheekyscrip and where she lives too, my heart goes out to her. If it mattered to your community perhaps you might spare a thought. It clearly affects @MollySmith and others like @noushka05 too who clearly are passionate about their politics.
> 
> Seriously _you are a_ll need[ing] to grow up yourselves it [is] like listening to a bunch of children who haven't got there [their] own way.


And others are concerned about the lies and assumptions being peddled, which ever side they come from


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> *The Article 50 Amendments and how Parliament voted.*
> 
> 1. Give MPs a veto on the final deal
> Rejected
> The result was 326-293.
> 
> 2. Prove if the NHS will get £350m a week
> Rejected
> The result 337 votes to 288
> 
> 3. Give Britain a second EU referendum
> Rejected
> The results 340 votes to 33.
> 
> 4. Stay in the EU if MPs can't agree
> Rejected
> The results 336 votes to 88
> 
> 5. Stop 'excessive' tax cuts for big business
> Rejected
> The results 336 votes to 289
> 
> 6. Get every nation's approval BEFORE Article 50
> Rejected
> The results 332 votes to 62
> 
> 7. Protect workers' rights
> Rejected
> The results 336 votes to 291
> 
> 8. Make Theresa May update MPs every two months
> Rejected
> The results 333 to 284
> 
> 9. Give more say to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
> Rejected
> The results 333 to 27
> 
> 10. Keep Leave's funding promises for Wales
> Rejected
> The results 330 to 267
> 
> 11. Reveal the Treasury's assessment of Brexit
> Rejected
> The results 337 to 281
> 
> 12. Reveal our EU "divorce bill"
> Rejected
> The results 333 to 79
> 
> 13. Consult Gibraltar before Article 50
> Rejected
> The results 338 to 288
> 
> 14. Preserve rights for people in Northern Ireland
> Rejected
> The results 327 votes to 288
> 
> 15. Guarantee EU citizens already here can stay
> Rejected
> The results 332 votes to 290
> 
> 16. Stay in Euratom
> Rejected
> The results 336 votes to 287


Democracy in action.


----------



## noushka05

My hubby works in the steel industry, a lot of lads voted leave under the impression the industry would prosper. They were duped because the EU has always cared more about the industry then the tories ever have. The leak to the Times yet more proof of this shambles - http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...riority-industries-for-brexit-talks-q020z5clb

And now journalist who report leaks face 14 years in jail. This country is becoming an authoritarian state. I thought brexit was about taking back control??

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/10/espionage_law_jail_journalists_as_spies/?mt=1486972510477












cheekyscrip said:


> Must say here where I live is a bit taboo subject. Like talking about death.
> Because if you do it might end up I tears...everyone think the same" what will happen to my children when our jobs are gone?".
> 
> Where we will live if cannot pay mortgage and houses are unsellable?
> 
> We do not expect more sympathy from British than Dubs children.
> 
> Oh, there is " generous offer from Spain".
> 
> So childish or not I can at least express my opinions...( just therapeutic)...because 90% have me already on ignore.


Cheeky, I feel so sad for your situation, if posting on here helps (it helps me too  ) go for it. The only comfort I get from social media is knowing there are countless people who feel the same as I do. This is why its important not to lose hope & to keep fighting the good fight till the bitter end.



stockwellcat said:


> Listening to remoaners go around in circles for 7 months has really become boring as well @Pawscrossed and really I wonder who is actually throwing there toys out the pram so to speak over Brexit? Us leave voters aren't. But hey what is moaning going to achieve? Nothing as the process has already started last week when the Article 50 bill got passed through Parliament without a single amendment.


Don't you care about all the lives it will destroy? Even you will suffer in one way or another @stockwellcat, hard brexit will be a catastrophe for this country, the environment - the living planet.


----------



## Satori

A distant family member just told me that she voted leave and has no regrets about it. Immigration was her chief concern. Asked to elaborate she said "We're an island and we're full up. I'm worried that if we let more of them in our Island will sink", said without a hint of irony; dead serious. True story.


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> A distant family member just told me that she voted leave and has no regrets about it. Immigration was her chief concern. Asked to elaborate she said "We're an island and we're full up. I'm worried that if we let more of them in our Island will sink", said without a hint of irony; dead serious. True story.


Well yes, that was my concern too


----------



## KittenKong

leashedForLife said:


> .
> claiming that anyone who voted Remain "wants to see the U.K. fail" is not only insulting, .
> .


Absolutely. It's become a Brexiteers weapon as they are rapidly losing the argument as to how the country will be so much better isolated from the rest of Europe.

Reading between the lines they realise it could fail. They're getting desperate like Theresa May is.

No, I'll never endorse a no compromise Farage style of Brexit, even if it were to be a success. I happen to care for other countries, especially European neighbours, not just this little island.

I have no time for this couldn't care less about you as long as we're OK attitude. It disgusts me.

If, heaven forbid, Le Penn wins in France I would feel exactly the same. I would no longer wish to visit the country, nor support it. France under Le Penn will become isolated just as little England is becoming under May.

I'm sure it's the same in the U.S. Speaking against Trump makes you hate America.

I sympathise.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely. It's become a Brexiteers weapon as *they are rapidly losing the argument* as to how the country will be so much better isolated from the rest of Europe.
> 
> *Reading between the lines they realise it could fail. They're getting desperate like Theresa May is.*


Not at all.

Actually I personally think that things will be absolutely fine when we actually Brexit in 2019. What I am actually annoyed about is the length of time it has taken to get to the stage it is at.

Theresa May has huge support from Parliament so I don't think she is worried at all or desparate. I reckon if a General Election was called tomorrow Theresa May would win, so she isn't desparate what-so-ever (What's the alternative, a split Labour party with a far left leader who wants to take the UK back to the 1970's with very little support from his fellow Labour MP's and doesn't know what the word opposition means).


----------



## 1290423

Under the circumstanes of being thrown in at the deep end I feel that teresa may has stepped up to the task admirably, she is manangng this difficult task far better than I expected . TM was not my choice as it happens I would have preferred Andrea leadsom, but no regrets whatsover now with the choice, and at the moment she could go down in history either as the worst pm this country has seen since the war or the best, my monies on the later!


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...push-state-pension-age/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

From the Telegraph too!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...push-state-pension-age/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw
> 
> From the Telegraph too!
> View attachment 300346
> View attachment 300347


Nothing will change until 2028 and by then things may look very different. It's a review that has to be carried out at least once under every government as agreed in 2014
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...o-lead-the-uks-first-state-pension-age-review

John Cridland will report to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in time to allow government to consider the recommendations by May 2017. The review will be forward looking and focussed on the longer term. It will not cover the existing State Pension age timetable to April 2028.

Also, the clue is in the words "COULD" or "MAY" or "LIKELY"


----------



## 1290423

The worse pension age increase I recall is when labour increased the age for women to retire from 60 to 65, worse still they failed to inform those affected, ok you will say that was brought about by the equality act, but just a reminder those women born in the fifties, those whom it affected the worse did not experience the luxury of equality, most certainly not in tbe workplace.
All governments will look at any excuse to cut the welfare budget so the telegraph is only reporting something that was on the cards anyway, with or without brexit, and anyone who believes brexit is to blame for any such cuts need to get their rose tinted specs examined!


----------



## KittenKong

I'll be 63 in 2028 so I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. As it is I'll probably be allowed to retire at 67. In 2028 it could be upped further.

While Brexit cannot altogether be blamed for an increase in the pensionable age, immigration restrictions that may result from it could well cause a staffing shortage that results in having to work longer to compensate.

Note, I use words like could or may too!


----------



## rona

DT said:


> All governments will look at any excuse to cut the welfare budget so the telegraph is only reporting something that was on the cards anyway, with or without brexit, and anyone who believes brexit is to blame for any such cuts need to get their rose tinted specs examined!


Agreed. Like this from 2010
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10398918

"The previous Labour government's policy was to raise the pension age to 66 in 2024 and then gradually to 68 by 2046".


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...push-state-pension-age/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw
> 
> From the Telegraph too!
> View attachment 300346
> View attachment 300347


I thought Cameron and Osborne said the pension age was going to rise to 67 when they were in power, so the rise to this age is nothing to do with Brexit or immigration it was pre-planned.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> I thought Cameron and Osborne said the pension age was going to risen to 67 when they were in power, so the rise to this age is nothing to do with Brexit or immigration it was pre-planned.


By Tony Blair and Gordon Brown


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## 1290423

And another thing, many of those born in the fifties were in fulltime employment at the age of 15, now dont they have to be 18? those women didnt receive anywhere near like the childcare that is available today, I was fortunate, childcare was split between grandparents, the maternity benifits were pitiful too and the chance of returning to your employment following absenses were slim,


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> It seems Brexit is going to happen , if you had the choice who would you have chosen( from any party ) instead of May to lead us out of it .


Any PM worth their salt would be open & honest & spell it out loud and clear how damaging brexit will be for the country. But, no, she is actually going to drag us out with a hard brexit. Theresa May's government are now so far right that they are practically indistinguishable from ukip. I cant think of a worse leader - shes leading us all over a cliff & she knows it. Hence all the secrecy & the attempts to quash dissent.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 300358


I read this this morning. It is only a survey done by the Mirror newspaper done with a select amount of people so I would take this headline with a very large pinch of sea salt.

I can't believe people actually believe in surveys and polls still as they have been proven to be completely wrong in forecasting anything in the past.


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas* ‏@CarolineLucas  23h

I asked the Government what research they've commissioned to inform farming & environmental policy once we leave the EU.

The answer: none










What a complete & utter shambles


----------



## Happy Paws2

That wouldn't surprise at all.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Agreed. Like this from 2010
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10398918
> 
> "The previous Labour government's policy was to raise the pension age to 66 in 2024 and then gradually to 68 by 2046".


As I said the rise in pensionable age cannot be directly attributed to Brexit, but a staffing crisis resulting from it could result in it being brought forward by a good few years.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Here's a thing, you can actually retire at whatever age you wish, it's not down to the government. However if you are going to rely solely on the state pension then you'll probably going to be wanting to work far beyond the age you can claim it. So being in or out of the EU has bugger all to do with it.


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> Any PM worth their salt would be open & honest & spell it out loud and clear how damaging brexit will be for the country.


My guess is that she won't do that because no one knows for sure what will happen once we finally leave. There are lots of ifs and buts and flashy headlines on both sides but the fact remains no one can say with 100% certainty what the effects of leaving will be.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper, post: 1064776835, member: 1450538"]Here's a thing, you can actually retire at whatever age you wish, it's not down to the government. However if you are going to rely solely on the state pension........

Yeah, true.

Not all of us can afford to take early retirement!

Living solely on fresh air isn't an option.


----------



## Jesthar

stuaz said:


> My guess is that she won't do that because no one knows for sure what will happen once we finally leave. There are lots of ifs and buts and flashy headlines on both sides but the fact remains no one can say with 100% certainty what the effects of leaving will be.


Well, not as a whole, no. Neither side has a crystal ball.  But there are plenty of knowns and reasonable 'what ifs' that they don't - or won't - talk about. Being part of the EU and its companion agreements has many benefits very few people will have considered when voting (I knew about the new medicines not being available for years, but I had no idea about the airport landing rights one, for example), and resolving that lot in two years is going to be interesting.

I also remain skeptical of our ability to negotiate superior trade deals on our own. The fact that we can't even start that before the two years exit process is up is one problem, the unfavourable positiion that WTO trade rules (not WTO tarriffs) place us in is another - we'll need deals ASAP, and given we'll be offering a market of just 64 million people our bargaining power isn't exaclty looking stellar. If Mrs May (or whoever is in in charge by then) stands by the absolute position of no free movement as part of trade agreements, then given that the majority of countries who have said they are interested want free or free-er movement as part of the deal that could be a problem. Throw not having enough esperienced negotiators to handle all the deals we need to make, and we could either be stuck with no deals for years, or have to accept unfavourable deals due to having no alternative.

I'm also not particularly thrilled by the voting of the last week, particularly the rejecting of protecting workers rights, costing up Brexit and regular updates. Feels very much like we're being offered a pig in a poke...


----------



## Calvine

stuaz said:


> "cliche liking"


@stuaz: may I ask if you mean ''clique''...otherwise I do not understand the post.


----------



## stuaz

Calvine said:


> @stuaz: may I ask if you mean ''clique''...otherwise I do not understand the post.


Yeah clique though some of the posts in here are a bit cliche at times as well..


----------



## Calvine

stuaz said:


> Yeah clique though some of the posts in here are a bit cliche at times as well..


@stuaz: You've got a point there!!


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Any PM worth their salt would be open & honest & spell it out loud and clear how damaging brexit will be for the country. t.


Or perhaps we could ask mr corbyn, now how many years was it he was banging on about how we should leave the eu?


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-to-backlash-against-britons-living-in-the-eu

















One word- Disgusting.


----------



## Satori

Dr Pepper said:


> Here's a thing, you can actually retire at whatever age you wish, it's not down to the government. However if you are going to rely solely on the state pension then you'll probably going to be wanting to work far beyond the age you can claim it. So being in or out of the EU has bugger all to do with it.


This.

Sensible people with pension age still some way off will plan on the assumption that they get no state pension. Anything they do get is a nice bonus then, beer money if you will. The future pension liabilities are not even factored into the national debt figures so better to hope for the best but plan for the worst.


----------



## Arnie83

There's been a lot of words written above on pensions, and how Brexit is no threat, and, strictly speaking, they're right.

Immigration, however, is important. The age profile of the UK is getting ever older. The number of workers per retiree is getting smaller, and it's currently their taxes that pay for the pensions. If, post Brexit, immigration is cut, then that situation will worsen. 

Simply, there are two ways to alleviate the situation - increase the pensionable age, or increase the ratio of workers to pensioners. The first has already begun as we know. But reducing the ratio rather than increasing it through strict immigration controls will mean that the first must be accelerated. Or you could reduce the level of pension.

That isn't the only issue, though, because when people get old they require more care, both for acute illnesses via the 'standard' NHS system and for chronic conditions like, well, getting old. We already have the first arguments about who should pay for it - central or local government - and those are all about passing the buck. At the end of the day, taxpayers must pay for it. Cut immigration with an ageing population, and the same thing happens as with pensions.

Those dismissing it as no problem or nothing to do with Brexit should have another think before waving it aside.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> This.
> 
> Sensible people with pension age still some way off will plan on the assumption that they get no state pension. Anything they do get is a nice bonus then, beer money if you will. The future pension liabilities are not even factored into the national debt figures so better to hope for the best but plan for the worst.


The average UK household income is currently £26,000 per annum.

To replace the state pension, a couple will need to have built up a pot of c. £320,000 by the time they retire.

For many of those 'sensible people' you mention, who don't actually live in cloud cuckoo land, that is simply not possible.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> The average UK household income is currently £26,000 per annum.
> 
> To replace the state pension, a couple will need to have built up a pot of c. £320,000 by the time they retire.
> 
> For many of those 'sensible people' you mention, who don't actually live in cloud cuckoo land, that is simply not possible.


Yep. Doesn't matter though. If you are mid 20's now you'd better assume state pension will be done with by the time you get to 70. It's people assuming that the state will take care of their retirement who are living in cloud cuckoo land.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mum currently gets her state pension and has done since the age of 61 years and 10 months but mum and dad retired 5 years ago (mum was 60 and dad was 58 when they retired). They aren't super rich, they aren't millionaire's either, they were taught to save. Dad gets his state retirement money in two years time, but currently gets his army pension (left the army in 1982) as well as living off savings him and mum saved. They payed their mortgage off and could afford to go on holiday three times a year up until mum became ill two years ago, last year after mum got better for a breif period they had two holidays, now mum is unwell again no holidays this year. It called budgeting within your means.


----------



## Arnie83

So, @Satori and @stockwellcat , the disappearance of the state pension is a price worth paying for Brexit, is it?

I don't think you'll find many of the 51.9% agreeing with that.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> So, @Satori and @stockwellcat , the disappearance of the state pension is a price worth paying for Brexit, is it?
> 
> I don't think you'll find many of the 51.9% agreeing with that.


Nowt to do with Brexit. You just make this stuff up don't you?


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> My guess is that she won't do that because no one knows for sure what will happen once we finally leave. There are lots of ifs and buts and flashy headlines on both sides but the fact remains no one can say with 100% certainty what the effects of leaving will be.


We cant know exactly how bad it will be but we actually do know it will be bad.



DT said:


> Or perhaps we could ask mr corbyn, now how many years was it he was banging on about how we should leave the eu?


I'm not going to be an apologist for Corbyn, but there has never been such a hard right authoritarian government in power before so maybe this made him have a rethink. But I don't know & I dont really care tbqh, because there is no doubt brexit is going to be devastating for the things that matter most to me. Things are going just the way experts warned us they would.

Brexit will leave our environment at the mercy of Trump - http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-uk-environment-pesticides-theresa-may-mercy-donald-trump-2017-2

(Happy Birthday by the way! )


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So, @Satori and @stockwellcat , the disappearance of the state pension is a price worth paying for Brexit, is it?
> 
> I don't think you'll find many of the 51.9% agreeing with that.


State pension isn't disappearing because of Brexit.

I just checked mine and I can retire in 2041 on state pension because of the age change on state pension in 2028 which was pre- forecasted before the Referendum ever was thought of. My private pension that I have been paying into out of my own money pays out first payment when I reach 57 in 14 years time. I have gaps in my private pension when I haven't been able to save and I only started paying into 10 years ago. Then there's this work place pension as well that I pay into and my employer pays into.


----------



## noushka05

I've haven't caught up with all the thread yet so this may have been posted already. Have you seen it @cheekyscrip ? https://www.ft.com/content/a62b292a...egmentId=2f40f9e8-c8d5-af4c-ecdd-78ad0b93926b


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> We cant know exactly how bad it will be but we actually do know it will be bad.


But exactly how do you know it will be bad. no one can say what it ill be like until it has actually happened.
Everything your so called experts predict (which you obviously believe) are nothing but predictions.
Same goes for what the brexiteers predict as well, we just have to wait and see.


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> We cant know exactly how bad it will be but we actually do know it will be bad.
> )


So we have 100% evidence that says that Brexit is bad?


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> We cant know exactly how bad it will be but we actually do know it will be bad.
> 
> I'm not going to be an apologist for Corbyn, but there has never been such a hard right authoritarian government in power before so maybe this made him have a rethink. But I don't know & I dont really care tbqh, because there is no doubt brexit is going to be devastating for the things that matter most to me. Things are going just the way experts warned us they would.
> 
> Brexit will leave our environment at the mercy of Trump - http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-uk-environment-pesticides-theresa-may-mercy-donald-trump-2017-2
> 
> (Happy Birthday by the way! )


Awh fank you, and ty too for the burthday card xxxx


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> I've haven't caught up with all the thread yet so this may have been posted already. Have you seen it @cheekyscrip ? https://www.ft.com/content/a62b292a...egmentId=2f40f9e8-c8d5-af4c-ecdd-78ad0b93926b


That problem we have for years 
Spain claiming that out air is actually Spanish.

There were dangerous moments when Spanish planes were getting in the way of British air force.

Spain tries all to get control of our waters and airspace to block any communication with our mainland: Britain or getting supplies from Morocco or Portugal.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> The average UK household income is currently £26,000 per annum.
> 
> To replace the state pension, a couple will need to have built up a pot of c. £320,000 by the time they retire.
> 
> For many of those 'sensible people' you mention, who don't actually live in cloud cuckoo land, that is simply not possible.


Here's another thing, when you retire you don't need the average wage. All being well you've paid the mortgage off, kids have flown the nest and you no longer need two cars. You've been sold a lie as to the actual pension pot you'll need.

Obviously the more the better though.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Nowt to do with Brexit. You just make this stuff up don't you?


Immigration numbers are "nowt to do with Brexit"?

Interesting theory.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> State pension isn't disappearing because of Brexit.
> 
> I just checked mine and I can retire in 2041 on state pension because of the age change on state pension in 2028 which was pre- forecasted before the Referendum ever was thought of. My private pension that I have been paying into out of my own money pays out first payment when I reach 57 in 14 years time. I have gaps in my private pension when I haven't been able to save and I only started paying into 10 years ago. Then there's this work place pension as well that I pay into and my employer pays into.


It's disappearing - according the Satori - within 50 years. It's disappearing because it will no longer be affordable on the taxes of the working population v. the number of retirees.

The increase in the number of working age people is going to be significantly reduced if immigration is significantly reduced.

Immigration will be significantly reduced if the Leavers get their way.

Brexit will facilitate the Leavers getting their way.

Ergo, Brexit contributes in no insignificant way to the predicted disappearance of the state pension.

QED


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Here's another thing, when you retire you don't need the average wage. All being well you've paid the mortgage off, kids have flown the nest and you no longer need two cars. You've been sold a lie as to the actual pension pot you'll need.
> 
> Obviously the more the better though.


The post you answered referred to the current (well, promised) state pension of £155 per week = £8000 per year.

The £26,000 is the average income out of which one would have to save a pot of £320,000 to buy an annuity of £8000 per year.

It wasn't what was required to provide £26,000 per year, which would be a pot of roughly £1,000,000.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> The £26,000 is the average income out of which one would have to save a pot of £320,000 to buy an annuity of £8000 per year.


You no longer have to buy an annuity and interest rates will probably be higher and you'll be able to buy bigger annuity anyway


----------



## MollySmith

Back to give apologies to @stockwellcat and others. I could pm but I won't because I prefer to say sorry in public. Yesterday feeling beleaguered and bored to tears with this thing with the EU, I posted in jest and perhaps didn't get the tone right. Apologies stockwell cat, your commitment to the campaign is admirable and I hope that we can beg to differ and agree on that. With best wishes me and Molls


----------



## stockwellcat.

MollySmith said:


> Back to give apologies to @stockwellcat and others. I could pm but I won't because I prefer to say sorry in public. Yesterday feeling beleaguered and bored to tears with this thing with the EU, I posted in jest and perhaps didn't get the tone right. Apologies stockwell cat, your commitment to the campaign is admirable and I hope that we can beg to differ and agree on that. With best wishes me and Molls


Ahh don't worry about it. No need to apologise. Of course we can beg to differ. Best wishes stockwellcat


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat said:


> Ahh don't worry about it. No need to apologise. Of course we can beg to differ. Best wishes stockwellcat


It mattered that I did, - thank you


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Immigration numbers are "nowt to do with Brexit"?
> 
> Interesting theory.


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> View attachment 300417


HaHaHaHa

Bloody brilliant


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> So we have 100% evidence that says that Brexit is bad?


What makes you think it's going to be good?


----------



## kimthecat

Long threads were mentioned earlier. It looks like the longest thread is - First word you think of . 497 pages long and started on 2009 in the Games section.
I reckon we could beat that if we carry on for another few years. :Smuggrin


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Satori said:


> View attachment 300417


Is that a horse? Lol!


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I reckon we could beat that if we carry on for another few years. :Smuggrin


Imagine looking back at this thread at the end of April 2019 when the UK has Brexited (if this thread is still open by then) from the EU :Smuggrin. I wonder what we'll all be saying?


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat I bet we'll still be saying the same things plus a few I told you so 's


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat I bet we'll still be saying the same things plus a few I told you so 's


I'll be saying '0111100010101010101011111111010001111' because we'll all be robots by then.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Or possibly 'urrrffffffffggggghhhhhh' if we go the other way and turn into zombies.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Imagine looking back at this thread at the end of April 2019 when the UK has Brexited (if this thread is still open by then) from the EU :Smuggrin. I wonder what we'll all be saying?


I don't think many will be grinning that's for sure.

Many didn't know what they voted for, they'll be in for a great shock I reckon.

Brexiteers may fall out, arguing "I didn't vote for that" and the likes.

The UK will be more divided than ever.

Opposition will surely grow, not seen since the Poll Tax.

All could have been avoided had May not put reducing immigration as priority.

A compromise that is proven to work such as a Norway or Swiss method would have avoided many of the pitfalls and would have worked towards re-building a deeply divided UK.

I hope that one day pressure on the government may make them reconsider and re-join the EEA.

Surely the moderates here on either side would be prepared to compromise seeing the vote to leave was so narrow?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> I don't think many will be grinning that's for sure.
> 
> Many didn't know what they voted for, they'll be in for a great shock I reckon.
> 
> Brexiteers may fall out, arguing "I didn't vote for that" and the likes.
> 
> The UK will be more divided than ever.
> 
> Opposition will surely grow, not seen since the Poll Tax.
> 
> All could have been avoided had May not put reducing immigration as priority.
> 
> A compromise that is proven to work such as a Norway or Swiss method would have avoided many of the pitfalls and would have worked towards re-building a deeply divided UK.
> 
> I hope that one day pressure on the government may make them reconsider and re-join the EEA.
> 
> Surely the moderates here on either side would be prepared to compromise seeing the vote to leave was so narrow?


There you go again - Brexiteers didn't know what they voted for - says who? The Guardian?

I was talking to my husband about this long debate (or should I say merry go round) earlier and asking him how many people he has heard talking about it either negatively or positively. He goes into approx 5-6 homes per day so quite a lot of houses and their occupants since last June, all walks of life as some are tenants, some are first time buyers, some are moving up the property ladder and many are moving back down or releasing equity to top up their pensions. Not one person has mentioned Brexit or expressed feelings of concern about the future due to it. Even my Mum who voted to remain has accepted its happening and has got on with life and made friends with the people she had a few grumpy words with at the time. I really don't think this forum is a reflection of the real world.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> There you go again - Brexiteers didn't know what they voted for - says who? The Guardian?
> 
> I was talking to my husband about this long debate (or should I say merry go round) earlier and asking him how many people he has heard talking about it either negatively or positively. He goes into approx 5-6 homes per day so quite a lot of houses and their occupants since last June, all walks of life as some are tenants, some are first time buyers, some are moving up the property ladder and many are moving back down or releasing equity to top up their pensions. Not one person has mentioned Brexit or expressed feelings of concern about the future due to it. Even my Mum who voted to remain has accepted its happening and has got on with life and made friends with the people she had a few grumpy words with at the time. I really don't think this forum is a reflection of the real world.


So you predict, as if by magic, myself and 16+ million others are going to toe the line and embrace Brexit and Nationalism?

You cannot be more wrong.

No, I did not get that info from The Guardian or any other newspaper. I happen to live in a working class area in the North of England and have heard people speak about these false hopes myself with my own ears, and even to my face.

The North of England is quite different to where you live. I've lived in Devon in my late teens which is like a different world to up here.

What would you say to those who honestly believe the old traditional industries that went in the '80s will return post Brexit? I don't remember Mrs Thatcher blaming the EEC for the demise of them.

The pledge on the big red bus to honour £350m to the NHS is also still believed.

Papers like, "The Sun" publish facts according to many. Everywhere you look every other person reads it or The Daily Mail in these parts.

You said no one reads it where you are which goes to show how different things must be. I'm not being an inverted snob by saying that incidentally.

Yes, I guess some older people who voted remain might accept that.

I have at least 20 years left of my life probably and will assure you I'll be fighting for my rights to be a citizen of EU 'til the day I die, however hard yourself and others expect me to otherwise.

Why should I lose that right because 52% of those that voted say I should?

Brexit is not in my name. It never will be. No one will convert me to their way of thinking.

And of course the younger people where Brexit will affect the most, the 16 and 17 year olds declined their say.

Do you think many people with these delusional ideas about how traditional Northern industries will return post Brexit won't be disappointed when it doesn't deliver plus obstacles in travelling abroad which may become out of reach financially for many on lower incomes? Just a couple of examples to start with without mentioning the possibility of job losses as a direct result of Brexit.

If the UK does start deporting EU citizens for the crime of not being British what makes you think other countries won't deport UK citizens in a "tit for tat" fashion?

What makes you personally think the UK will become a better place post Brexit, isolated from the rest of Europe with more dependence on countries like the US?

Of course you are entitled to embrace this for whatever reason you choose. It's a free country after all.

Just don't expect the entire UK to embrace it with you. It won't and when the truth becomes apparent who do you think will be the first to suffer? Not South of England suburbia that's for sure.

It will hit those in the North the hardest. Well, let them get on with it if this is what they voted for you might say.

Then Gibraltar, Northern Ireland and Scotland didn't........

People tend to conveniently forget that....


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/13/archbishop-suggests-brexit-fascist-tradition


----------



## Zaros

*'Hands up all those who thought 1984 was a dystopian novel' *


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> But exactly how do you know it will be bad. no one can say what it ill be like until it has actually happened.
> Everything your so called experts predict (which you obviously believe) are nothing but predictions.
> Same goes for what the brexiteers predict as well, we just have to wait and see.





stuaz said:


> So we have 100% evidence that says that Brexit is bad?


There's loads of evidence. And in fact you only have to listen to what May & her government are saying themselves..

Firstly, you are aware the governments own white paper exposed all the reasons for the leaving the EU as lies?

On to why we know without a shadow of doubt leaving the EU will be bad for Britain.

Ministers have made no secret they are lighting a bonfire with EU 'red tape & regulations which protect us & our environment.

Theresa May is peddling the idea of Britain becoming a tax haven. This will actually reduce our sovereignty, leave us without money for the NHS & public services. Our government are actually sabotaging work on the EUs black list for tax havens. https://www.bna.com/uk-becoming-prime-n57982083607/ Despicable.










And the effects of brexit is already being felt. We're already becoming repellent - https://www.ft.com/content/3b61387e-f12d-11e6-8758-6876151821a6










http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ent-consultancy-charles-edouard-a7576931.html

http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/stok...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Northern Ireland peace at risk because of brexit - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/11/irelnd-peace-risk-brexit-bertie-ahern?CMP=share_btn_tw

The £48bn brexit divorce demand - http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-ne...-demand-uk-pays-836457bn-to-leave-eu-10761933

The £58.7 Billion black hole in public finances. - http://www.open-britain.co.uk/mcfad...ng_a_58_7bn_black_hole_in_the_public_finances










I could go on & on & on


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> There's loads of evidence. And in fact you only have to listen to what May & her government are saying themselves..
> 
> Firstly, you are aware the governments own white paper exposed all the reasons for the leaving the EU as lies?
> 
> On to why we know without a shadow of doubt leaving the EU will be bad for Britain.
> 
> Ministers have made no secret they are lighting a bonfire with EU 'red tape & regulations which protect us & our environment.
> 
> Theresa May is peddling the idea of Britain becoming a tax haven. This will actually reduce our sovereignty, leave us without money for the NHS & public services. Our government are actually sabotaging work on the EUs black list for tax havens. https://www.bna.com/uk-becoming-prime-n57982083607/ Despicable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the effects of brexit is already being felt. We're already becoming repellent - https://www.ft.com/content/3b61387e-f12d-11e6-8758-6876151821a6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ent-consultancy-charles-edouard-a7576931.html
> 
> http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/stok...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
> 
> Northern Ireland peace at risk because of brexit - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/11/irelnd-peace-risk-brexit-bertie-ahern?CMP=share_btn_tw
> 
> The £48bn brexit divorce demand - http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-ne...-demand-uk-pays-836457bn-to-leave-eu-10761933
> 
> The £58.7 Billion black hole in public finances. - http://www.open-britain.co.uk/mcfad...ng_a_58_7bn_black_hole_in_the_public_finances
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could go on & on & on


No offence meant but you keep claiming what papers say is fact. They are far from facts, they stoke lies and fear. I'd rather hear it from the Governments mouth in PMQ's on a Wednesday on the Parliament channel than read what the papers say and how the news on TV peddles the truth into a dramatic story of lies. So called experts make predictions as they don't know themselves what will happen when the UK brexits and instead play on those that believe them's fear.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> No offence meant but you keep claiming what papers say is fact. They are far from facts, they stoke lies and fear. I'd rather hear it from the Government s mouth in PMQ's on a Wednesday on the Parliament channel than read what the papers say and how the news on TV peddles the truth into a dramatic story of lies. So called experts make predictions as they don't know themselves what will happen when the UK brexits and instead play on those that believe them's fear.


No that's not true. Please read what I've posted.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No that's not true. Please read what I've posted.


The papers you used were:
The Guardian
The Independent
Financial Times (FT) and Sky News TV channel

MP's didn't think the White Paper was lies, they used parts of it in there debate for the Article 50 bill.

Regarding having to pay an exit fee to leave the EU, it wasn't going to be free, we knew that. The Government can reject paying it or negotiate to bring it down to a lower amount, this is what the negotiations are for once Article 50 is triggered with the EU 27. The figure quoted includes membership for the next 3 years (until 2020) when we officially stop paying the EU contributions and TM has already told them no they aren't getting this in advance.

The big red bus again


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/13/archbishop-suggests-brexit-fascist-tradition
> 
> View attachment 300448
> View attachment 300449


He also said
"He added that now was "a moment to reimagine Britain, a moment of potential opportunity, certainly combined with immensely hard work and heavy lifting". Welby said: "It is a moment of challenge, but challenge that as a nation can be overcome with the right practices, values, culture and spirit. This could be a time of liberation, of seizing and defining the future, or it could be one in which the present problems seize our national future and define us."


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> The papers you used were:
> The Guardian
> The Independent
> Financial Times (FT) and Sky News TV channel
> 
> MP's didn't think the White Paper was lies, they used parts of it in there debate for the Article 50 bill.
> 
> Regarding having to pay an exit fee to leave the EU, it wasn't going to be free, we knew that. The Government can reject paying it or negotiate to bring it down to a lower amount, this is what the negotiations are for once Article 50 is triggered with the EU 27. The figure quoted includes membership for the next 3 years (until 2020) when we officially stop paying the EU contributions and TM has already told them no they aren't getting this in advance.
> 
> The big red bus again


So extreme is your confirmation bias that you refute all evidence that doesn't fit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> So extreme is your confirmation bias that you refute all evidence that doesn't fit.


What evidence?

We haven't left yet let alone entered negotiations, so there is no evidence that this will be bad for the UK yet.

You keep putting predictions up because the event hasn't happened yet and this is why it is only predictions. No one can see into the future unless they have a crystal ball or time machine.

You didn't read the White Paper and are going off what others are saying about the white paper (second hand information). Try reading it and making your own opinion on it.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> What evidence?
> 
> We haven't left yet let alone entered negotiations, so there is no evidence that this will be bad for the UK yet.
> 
> You keep putting predictions up because the event hasn't happened yet and this is why it is only predictions. No one can see into the future unless they have a crystal ball or time machine.


Jeezus.


----------



## samuelsmiles

James McGrory and Open Britain don't seem averse to a little spin. He behaved like a petulant schoolboy in this interview. Naughty boy.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Jeezus.


No I am not him. Don't even claim to be him (good guess though). He might be able to see into the future (You might be right there).


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> There's loads of evidence


Sorry, but your loads of evidence as you call it, is pure speculation ie, could have, may have or will have.
Very strange, how when I have quoted things from the papers
you say it's all lies,and I have been duped and shouldn't believe what I read.But when you do it's always true.
Oh dear, the red bus again, i wonder how many times you have used that in your posts, it's getting very boring.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> No I am not him. Don't even claim to be him (good guess though). He might be able to see into the future (You might be right there).


I think Noush meant Corbyn . its easy to get the two muddled up


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> He also said
> "He added that now was "a moment to reimagine Britain, a moment of potential opportunity, certainly combined with immensely hard work and heavy lifting". Welby said: "It is a moment of challenge, but challenge that as a nation can be overcome with the right practices, values, culture and spirit. This could be a time of liberation, of seizing and defining the future, or it could be one in which the present problems seize our national future and define us."


Never liked him actually. He's reportedly against Gay marriage too.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I think Noush meant Corbyn . its easy to get the two muddled up



Comparing me to Corbyn 
Oh you mean Jeezus and Corbyn


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> James McGrory and Open Britain don't seem averse to a little spin. He behaved like a petulant schoolboy in this interview. Naughty boy.


And you don't think Boris. Gove and Farage didn't?

Were you impressed by this latter's performance at the EU parliament post referendum for example?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Never liked him actually. He's reportedly against Gay marriage.


Yes there's a tiny snippet about that in the report you highlighted too


----------



## stockwellcat.

samuelsmiles said:


> James McGrory and Open Britain don't seem averse to a little spin. He behaved like a petulant schoolboy in this interview. Naughty boy.


Thanks for posting this. I have just watched this and well oh well the remain camp is using mini snipits to try and make the leave camp like they are lying when in fact they are lying. They should try watching this that you have posted as it has revealed a few important things.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Mum currently gets her state pension and has done since the age of 61 years and 10 months but mum and dad retired 5 years ago (mum was 60 and dad was 58 when they retired). They aren't super rich, they aren't millionaire's either, they were taught to save. Dad gets his state retirement money in two years time, but currently gets his army pension (left the army in 1982) as well as living off savings him and mum saved. They payed their mortgage off and could afford to go on holiday three times a year up until mum became ill two years ago, last year after mum got better for a breif period they had two holidays, now mum is unwell again no holidays this year. It called budgeting within your means.


Sounds like a duplicate of our life, we call it living within our means, albeit we shall continue to hammer our savings until my pension is paid, apart from the illness we are much the same. hope your mum improves some so that more holidays can be enjoyed X


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> James McGrory and Open Britain don't seem averse to a little spin. He behaved like a petulant schoolboy in this interview. Naughty boy.


The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) was the source of that figure, they found that Brexit had already cost the UK £58.7bn back in december. Goodness knows what its cost to date! Do you ever bother to fact check?



kimthecat said:


> I think Noush meant Corbyn . its easy to get the two muddled up


I'd never muddle Jeezus up with any of the selfservatives, that's for sure


----------



## kimthecat

It is that uncertainty and speculations that is damaging and arguing and fighting amongst MPs and citizens adds to it . 

The European commissions says growth will slow in the UK for the next to years because of uncertainty ( BBC red button) , the pound is low because of uncertainty , the survey by linked in said less proffessionals are looking for jobs here , I don't have full access to the survey and dont if the reasons were mentioned but again , uncertainty would be one reason .


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) was the source of that figure, they found that Brexit had already cost the UK £58.7bn back in december. Goodness knows what its cost to date! Do you ever bother to fact check?


But you quoted this today:
The £48bn brexit divorce demand - http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-ne...-demand-uk-pays-836457bn-to-leave-eu-10761933

So is it £58bn or £48bn? Or is it just a figure snatched from thin air and no one actually knows yet until we enter negotiations with the EU 27.

You forget to add and so do the newspapers and news channels that the fee also includes membership fees until 2020 when the UK stops paying into the EU's budget. These figures are up for negotiation in the Brexit negotiations.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> And you don't think Boris. Gove and Farage didn't?
> 
> Were you impressed by this latter's performance at the EU parliament post referendum for example?


Sigh....................

We didn't vote for Farage and I would hope and believe that the vast majority who voted out were actually disgusted with his performance at the EU parliament and his subsequent hero worship of Trump
*
BUT WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR HIM, WE VOTED TO LEAVE THE EU*


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> But you quoted this today:
> The £48bn brexit divorce demand - http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-ne...-demand-uk-pays-836457bn-to-leave-eu-10761933
> 
> So is it £58bn or £48bn? Or is it just a figure snatched from thin air and no one actually knows yet until we enter negotiations with the EU 27.
> 
> You forget to add and so do the newspapers and news channels that the fee also includes membership fees until 2020 when the UK stops paying into the EU's budget. These figures are up for negotiation in the Brexit negotiations.


They're separate things. Brexit is going to make us a lot poorer.


----------



## noushka05

FGS!!

*Caroline Lucas* ‏@CarolineLucas  16h16 hours ago
.@GreenInvBank sale imminent, pls sign this petition urging gov't to think again - reckless to flog it off.

I really hope people will sign this whichever side of the fence they're on - https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/green-bank-petition


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Sigh....................
> 
> We didn't vote for Farage and I would hope and believe that the vast majority who voted out were actually disgusted with his performance at the EU parliament and his subsequent hero worship of Trump
> *
> BUT WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR HIM, WE VOTED TO LEAVE THE EU*


Accepted you voted to leave the EU (I didn't), but what you're getting is a Farage from of hard Brexit. May's embracing of Trump is as embarrassing as Farage's. I can only envisage Trump having more of a say in the UK's affairs as the UK becomes more dependent than ever on the US.

By leaving the EU the UK doesn't have to sacrifice the single market. It could have adapted a Norway style arrangement. Norway and Switzerland are not in the EU.

Having said that, without singling you out personally, most here appear to support the Farage model.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Accepted you voted to leave the EU (I didn't), but what you're getting is a Farage from of hard Brexit. May's embracing of Trump is as embarrassing as Farage's. I can only envisage Trump having more of a say in the UK's affairs as the UK becomes more dependent than ever on the US.


This is your vision, mine is very different.

If we voted for Farage then you voted for Cameron. You know, the man that scarpered when things got tough, leaving a woman to clear up after him. All I see at the moment, is that woman taking her time and doing a ruddy good job


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> This is your vision, mine is very different.
> 
> If we voted for Farage then you voted for Cameron. You know, the man that scarpered when things got tough, leaving a woman to clear up after him. All I see at the moment, is that woman taking her time and doing a ruddy good job


You are of course entitled to your opinion.


----------



## Satori

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Is that a horse? Lol!


...or a goat without horns?


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) was the source of that figure, they found that Brexit had already cost the UK £58.7bn back in december. Goodness knows what its cost to date! Do you ever bother to fact check?


So the UK public had to endure years of austerity due to "Labour mis-spending" if you believe the right wing press?

Funny how, like Climate change it no longer exists.

Think the Tories may also inherit the, "Spend, spend, spend" tag in the future!


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> Think the Tories will earn the tag, "Spend, spend, spend" in the future!


But unlike Viv Nicholson they'll never run out of money because they can always steal more from the people.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> It's disappearing - according the Satori - within 50 years. It's disappearing because it will no longer be affordable on the taxes of the working population v. the number of retirees. .


The Satori not say that.
Not have time machine.
Thinks that but not god.
Merely said financially imprudent for young people to rely on it.
Not same thing


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> So the UK public had to endure years of austerity


People still believe that?


----------



## samuelsmiles

KittenKong said:


> And you don't think Boris. Gove and Farage didn't?
> 
> Were you impressed by this latter's performance at the EU parliament post referendum for example?


My point is is everyone is at it. It's not exclusive to Leavers.

Farage's tub thumping at the EU Parliament after the referendum result lacked dignity in my opinion.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> What makes you think it's going to be good?


I haven't seen any conclusive proof that it will be bad or good tbh. Lots of guesswork and assumptions on both sides of the argument.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) was the source of that figure, they found that Brexit had already cost the UK £58.7bn back in december. Goodness knows what its cost to date! *Do you ever bother to fact check?*



It wasn't the figures I was refering to. It was the creative (disingenuous) editing of the speakers in the video.* *


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> There's loads of evidence. And in fact you only have to listen to what May & her government are saying themselves..
> 
> Firstly, you are aware the governments own white paper exposed all the reasons for the leaving the EU as lies?
> 
> On to why we know without a shadow of doubt leaving the EU will be bad for Britain.
> 
> Ministers have made no secret they are lighting a bonfire with EU 'red tape & regulations which protect us & our environment.
> 
> Theresa May is peddling the idea of Britain becoming a tax haven. This will actually reduce our sovereignty, leave us without money for the NHS & public services. Our government are actually sabotaging work on the EUs black list for tax havens. https://www.bna.com/uk-becoming-prime-n57982083607/ Despicable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the effects of brexit is already being felt. We're already becoming repellent - https://www.ft.com/content/3b61387e-f12d-11e6-8758-6876151821a6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ent-consultancy-charles-edouard-a7576931.html
> 
> http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/stok...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
> 
> Northern Ireland peace at risk because of brexit - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/11/irelnd-peace-risk-brexit-bertie-ahern?CMP=share_btn_tw
> 
> The £48bn brexit divorce demand - http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-ne...-demand-uk-pays-836457bn-to-leave-eu-10761933
> 
> The £58.7 Billion black hole in public finances. - http://www.open-britain.co.uk/mcfad...ng_a_58_7bn_black_hole_in_the_public_finances
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could go on & on & on


Sorry but I don't see anything in your post that proves 100% that the result will be bad. Some assumptions and estimates, yes. Not 100% proof.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Satori said:


> People still believe that?


Yes, when were/are those years?

My council tax has remained the same for years, taxed pretty much the same, they still collect my bins, I still have a supply of fresh water, food prices seem about the same. When exactly were the austerity years. Did I miss something?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> This is your vision, mine is very different.
> 
> If we voted for Farage then you voted for Cameron. You know, the man that scarpered when things got tough, leaving a woman to clear up after him. All I see at the moment, is that woman taking her time and doing a ruddy good job


Farage is over the moon with Mays brexit vision - hes getting the exact brexit he wanted. Tories & UKIP are now one & the same.





















stuaz said:


> Sorry but I don't see anything in your post that proves 100% that the result will be bad. Some assumptions and estimates, yes. Not 100% proof.


Wow really? Then I fear you're going to be in for a very rude awakening. Hard brexit will be a disaster.


----------



## Honeys mum

Honeys mum said:


> Sorry, but your loads of evidence as you call it, is pure speculation ie, could have, may have or will have.
> Very strange, how when I have quoted things from the papers
> you say it's all lies,and I have been duped and shouldn't believe what I read.But when you do it's always true.
> Oh dear, the red bus again, i wonder how many times you have used that in your posts, it's getting very boring.


Oh dear noush you haven't replied to my post above, which is not like you I wonder could that be because it's true.?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


You can retire whenever you want @noushka05 as long as you have savings to do it, this is to do with state retirement which was set to go up anyway through the previous labour Government and previous conservative government under Cameron and Osborne. Brexit can't be blamed for the retirement age being increased. I think this was already debated only one or two pages back.

Things will cost more they normally do, the price of food is always on the increase, it's nothing new.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Farage is over the moon with Mays brexit vision - hes getting the exact brexit he wanted. Tories & UKIP are now one & the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow really? Then I fear you're going to be in for a very rude awakening. Hard brexit will be a disaster.


Yeah, just like they did with the Poll Tax....

Funny to think someone commented if they voted for Farage I voted for Cameron.

Fair comment perhaps but the way things have turned out a vote for Cameron has resulted in a vote for Farage. Perhaps not the man himself but a government with remarkably similar policies.

I voted for Ed Miliband in the last election.

A vote for Blair didn't end up a vote for Corbyn which is exactly what's happened with the Tories.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> So you predict, as if by magic, myself and 16+ million others are going to toe the line and embrace Brexit and Nationalism?
> 
> You cannot be more wrong.
> 
> No, I did not get that info from The Guardian or any other newspaper. I happen to live in a working class area in the North of England and have heard people speak about these false hopes myself with my own ears, and even to my face.
> 
> The North of England is quite different to where you live. I've lived in Devon in my late teens which is like a different world to up here.
> 
> What would you say to those who honestly believe the old traditional industries that went in the '80s will return post Brexit? I don't remember Mrs Thatcher blaming the EEC for the demise of them.
> 
> The pledge on the big red bus to honour £350m to the NHS is also still believed.
> 
> Papers like, "The Sun" publish facts according to many. Everywhere you look every other person reads it or The Daily Mail in these parts.
> 
> You said no one reads it where you are which goes to show how different things must be. I'm not being an inverted snob by saying that incidentally.
> 
> Yes, I guess some older people who voted remain might accept that.
> 
> I have at least 20 years left of my life probably and will assure you I'll be fighting for my rights to be a citizen of EU 'til the day I die, however hard yourself and others expect me to otherwise.
> 
> Why should I lose that right because 52% of those that voted say I should?
> 
> Brexit is not in my name. It never will be. No one will convert me to their way of thinking.
> 
> And of course the younger people where Brexit will affect the most, the 16 and 17 year olds declined their say.
> 
> Do you think many people with these delusional ideas about how traditional Northern industries will return post Brexit won't be disappointed when it doesn't deliver plus obstacles in travelling abroad which may become out of reach financially for many on lower incomes? Just a couple of examples to start with without mentioning the possibility of job losses as a direct result of Brexit.
> 
> If the UK does start deporting EU citizens for the crime of not being British what makes you think other countries won't deport UK citizens in a "tit for tat" fashion?
> 
> What makes you personally think the UK will become a better place post Brexit, isolated from the rest of Europe with more dependence on countries like the US?
> 
> Of course you are entitled to embrace this for whatever reason you choose. It's a free country after all.
> 
> Just don't expect the entire UK to embrace it with you. It won't and when the truth becomes apparent who do you think will be the first to suffer? Not South of England suburbia that's for sure.
> 
> It will hit those in the North the hardest. Well, let them get on with it if this is what they voted for you might say.
> 
> Then Gibraltar, Northern Ireland and Scotland didn't........
> 
> People tend to conveniently forget that....


Wow that is quite a speech. I'll try to pick out some bits to answer

I don't expect you or anyone else to tow the line and put up with things you don't agree with. I love passionate people who actually care about things but I prefer people who "do" rather than "talk" or "post" so whilst I respect your right to have a different opinion and I respect your right to protest I don't respect your right to constantly tell people who voted to leave why they voted to leave, what newspapers they were brain washed by, what claims they were "taken in" by etc etc.

I don't live in Devon. I live in Dorset (home of the Tolpuddle Martyrs) which is a county of extremes - the super wealthy of Sandbanks and some poor/deprived areas too. I come from a working class family in Kent (a lot of my ancestors were paupers who spent years in and out of the workhouse) and spent many years living in London either as a nurse or for social services as a home care organiser on the very deprived massive council estates in Camberwell and Peckham.

I haven't heard a single person say they think the traditional industries of the 80's will return post Brexit. Similarly I haven't heard a single person who voted to leave say they believed the big red bus claims. Why can you not accept that people made up their own minds based on their own beliefs, just like you did. It is intellectual snobbery to believe that anyone who thinks differently to you does so because they are either less informed, or less intelligent or they are more susceptible to the media than you are.

The circulation figures for the Daily Mail and The Sun much like all other newspapers have fallen to record lows - I believe there are about 1.7 million copies of The Sun and 1.6 Million of The Daily Mail sold per day so 3.3 Million across the whole country. On the other hand Katy Perry has 95,778,112 twitter followers, Barack Obama has 84,523,000 and One Direction have 31,555,104. Even the Pope has over 10 million twitter followers so I really don't think you can claim that newspapers have that much influence anymore. As I posted on another thread Stephen Fry has 12 million followers and openly stated in an interview that he doesn't read tweets he just sends them. By the way I didn't say no one reads it where I am, how could I possibly know which if any newspaper my neighbours read or people in the next street read.

I don't agree that 16 and 17 year olds should be given in a vote, we still call young adults in the twenties children these days particularly it seems when seeking refugee status so no I don't believe children should be allowed to vote.

I have no idea what people with delusional ideas will think in the future, I don't know anyone with delusional ideas. As to holidays abroad costing more firstly that is conjecture and secondly that will be good for our tourist industry here as more people will holiday at home and appreciate our beautiful country and all it has to offer. You keep banging on about job losses but what about new jobs that may be created?

I haven't said I don't think other countries will deport UK citizens in a tit for tat fashion.

You talk about the north as if its the only place where poverty exists, spend some time in London and you will find plenty as you will in rural areas of the south particularly Cornwall but apparently the most deprived place in England is in Essex.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/indices-multiple-deprivation-poverty-england

• Over 5 million people live in the most deprived areas in England and 38% of them were poor
• Liverpool, Middlesbrough, Manchester, Knowsley, Hull, Hackney and Tower Hamlets are the local authorities with the highest number of areas among the most deprived in England
• The most deprived areas are in cities - 98% in fact

Using the data, we can pinpoint the most deprived place in England: Jaywick Sands in Essex

So now let me ask you some questions

If you feel so strongly about it what are you actually doing?
What actual campaigning did you do at the time or have you done since?
Do you have a crystal ball that only you have access to that tells you all the outcomes of negotiations that haven't even started yet?


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Oh dear noush you haven't replied to my post above, which is not like you I wonder could that be because it's true.?


Sorry I didn't even notice your post.



Honeys mum said:


> Sorry, but your loads of evidence as you call it, is pure speculation ie, could have, may have or will have.
> Very strange, how when I have quoted things from the papers
> you say it's all lies,and I have been duped and shouldn't believe what I read.But when you do it's always true.
> Oh dear, the red bus again, i wonder how many times you have used that in your posts, it's getting very boring.


So you don't even believe the government are trashing environmental protections even when they say so themselves? Hmm ok.

The Express, Mail, Sun are all owned by non dom media barons who want out of the EU. I wonder why these rags constantly spew hate & distort facts & dress them up as 'news'???. Now take the Guardian for example - its 'opinion' pieces are clearly labelled 'opinion' - its news pieces 'news'.

Guess which are the ONLY 3 UK newspapers that have been called out by the UN over the extreme nature of their coverage?

Murdoch, Rothermere/ Dacre, Desmond & the Barclays dominate the press. They are an affront to democracy.

This is a tweet by one of my twitter friends -
_
My grandparents died at Auschwitz: parents told me how Hitler's publicity machine slowly made it possible. 
This is how. Constant repetition_


----------



## Bisbow

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Wow that is quite a speech. I'll try to pick out some bits to answer
> 
> I don't expect you or anyone else to tow the line and put up with things you don't agree with. I love passionate people who actually care about things but I prefer people who "do" rather than "talk" or "post" so whilst I respect your right to have a different opinion and I respect your right to protest I don't respect your right to constantly tell people who voted to leave why they voted to leave, what newspapers they were brain washed by, what claims they were "taken in" by etc etc.
> 
> I don't live in Devon. I live in Dorset (home of the Tolpuddle Martyrs) which is a county of extremes - the super wealthy of Sandbanks and some poor/deprived areas too. I come from a working class family in Kent (a lot of my ancestors were paupers who spent years in and out of the workhouse) and spent many years living in London either as a nurse or for social services as a home care organiser on the very deprived massive council estates in Camberwell and Peckham.
> 
> I haven't heard a single person say they think the traditional industries of the 80's will return post Brexit. Similarly I haven't heard a single person who voted to leave say they believed the big red bus claims. Why can you not accept that people made up their own minds based on their own beliefs, just like you did. It is intellectual snobbery to believe that anyone who thinks differently to you does so because they are either less informed, or less intelligent or they are more susceptible to the media than you are.
> 
> The circulation figures for the Daily Mail and The Sun much like all other newspapers have fallen to record lows - I believe there are about 1.7 million copies of The Sun and 1.6 Million of The Daily Mail sold per day so 3.3 Million across the whole country. On the other hand Katy Perry has 95,778,112 twitter followers, Barack Obama has 84,523,000 and One Direction have 31,555,104. Even the Pope has over 10 million twitter followers so I really don't think you can claim that newspapers have that much influence anymore. As I posted on another thread Stephen Fry has 12 million followers and openly stated in an interview that he doesn't read tweets he just sends them. By the way I didn't say no one reads it where I am, how could I possibly know which if any newspaper my neighbours read or people in the next street read.
> 
> I don't agree that 16 and 17 year olds should be given in a vote, we still call young adults in the twenties children these days particularly it seems when seeking refugee status so no I don't believe children should be allowed to vote.
> 
> I have no idea what people with delusional ideas will think in the future, I don't know anyone with delusional ideas. As to holidays abroad costing more firstly that is conjecture and secondly that will be good for our tourist industry here as more people will holiday at home and appreciate our beautiful country and all it has to offer. You keep banging on about job losses but what about new jobs that may be created?
> 
> I haven't said I don't think other countries will deport UK citizens in a tit for tat fashion.
> 
> You talk about the north as if its the only place where poverty exists, spend some time in London and you will find plenty as you will in rural areas of the south particularly Cornwall but apparently the most deprived place in England is in Essex.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/indices-multiple-deprivation-poverty-england
> 
> • Over 5 million people live in the most deprived areas in England and 38% of them were poor
> • Liverpool, Middlesbrough, Manchester, Knowsley, Hull, Hackney and Tower Hamlets are the local authorities with the highest number of areas among the most deprived in England
> • The most deprived areas are in cities - 98% in fact
> 
> Using the data, we can pinpoint the most deprived place in England: Jaywick Sands in Essex
> 
> So now let me ask you some questions
> 
> If you feel so strongly about it what are you actually doing?
> What actual campaigning did you do at the time or have you done since?
> Do you have a crystal ball that only you have access to that tells you all the outcomes of negotiations that haven't even started yet?


How nice it is read something sensible for a change
Thank you


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> As to holidays abroad costing more firstly that is conjecture and secondly that will be good for our tourist industry here as more people will holiday at home and appreciate our beautiful country and all it has to offer. ?


First of all my apologies for getting your location incorrect. I could have sworn you mentioned living in Devon but must be getting you mixed up with someone else.

I'm always happy to apologise when I'm in the wrong as I was on that occasion.

The paragraph highlighted however I find deeply offensive. Many who voted leave take frequent holidays abroad and believe nothing will change as regards that. They'll be a major uproar if prices do rise post Brexit.
Yes, the UK has some beautiful places but they are limits and the time of year of course.

What is wrong with affordable holidays in the sun. What's wrong with people wanting to move abroad when retiring?

Do you want it to become only a rich person's privilege again?

I had visions of the possibility of retiring abroad. Now the thought of ending my days here fills me with much sadness. Please don't say that won't change, you and I don't know yet.

Yes, I'm well aware of the poverty that exists outside the North and know some of the places you mention.

To answer your question yes I am active as far as time allows. I'll be attending the demonstration in Edinburgh on March 25th. I'll support and help anti Brexit organisations in any way I can. I've also joined a political party that's against Brexit.

No, none of us have crystal balls but from where I'm standing a hard Brexit is very bad news.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> What is wrong with affordable holidays in the sun. What's wrong with people wanting to move abroad when retiring?
> 
> Do you want it to become only a rich person's privilege again?
> 
> I had visions of the possibility of retiring abroad. Now the thought of ending my days here fills me with much sadness. Please don't say that won't change, you and I don't know yet.


You keep going on about this.

You can retire abroad, nothing is stopping you. You can still save and do this. Just because the UK is Brexiting doesn't mean all of a sudden people can't go to Europe or retire there. People retire in Australia, New Zealand, America, Canada, Germany, France, Netherlands, Spain, Ireland etc every day. It won't make it anymore difficult to do this when the UK brexits than it already is. Retiring or going on holiday to Europe won't be something just for the rich to do. American's, Canadians, Australians, Turks all go to European countries everyday and they aren't in the EU and some even retire in European Countries.

I don't understand your thinking that UK citizens will be excluded from being able to go on holiday to European countries and retire there?

You can retire at anytime as long as you can financially look after yourself from savings, private pensions etc. Your state pension will still get paid to you if you retire in a European country or countries on the list of countries on the Governments website as long as they are in this World. Even UK citizens retiring in USA, Canada, Australia etc can get UK state pensions as long as they have paid enough National Insurance Contributions whilst they lived in the UK.

Check this out: https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/how-to-claim

*You can claim State Pension abroad if you've paid enough UK National Insurance contributions to qualify.*


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> First of all my apologies for getting your location incorrect. I could have sworn you mentioned living in Devon but must be getting you mixed up with someone else.
> 
> I'm always happy to apologise when I'm in the wrong as I was on that occasion.
> 
> The paragraph highlighted however I find deeply offensive. Many who voted leave take frequent holidays abroad and believe nothing will change as regards that. They'll be a major uproar if prices do rise post Brexit.
> Yes, the UK has some beautiful places but they are limits and the time of year of course.
> 
> What is wrong with affordable holidays in the sun. What's wrong with people wanting to move abroad when retiring?
> 
> Do you want it to become only a rich person's privilege again?
> 
> I had visions of the possibility of retiring abroad. Now the thought of ending my days here fills me with much sadness. Please don't say that won't change, you and I don't know yet.
> 
> Yes, I'm well aware of the poverty that exists outside the North and know some of the places you mention.
> 
> To answer your question yes I am active as far as time allows. I'll be attending the demonstration in Edinburgh on March 25th. I'll support and help anti Brexit organisations in any way I can. I've also joined a political party that's against Brexit.
> 
> No, none of us have crystal balls but from where I'm standing a hard Brexit is very bad news.


You probably got confused because I spend a lot of time in Devon - Dartmoor to be precise.

Wow you are easily offended if you find that one paragraph "deeply offensive" - how is it offensive to say the following?

As to holidays abroad costing more firstly that is conjecture and secondly that will be good for our tourist industry here as more people will holiday at home and appreciate our beautiful country and all it has to offer.

I can't see how that is any more offensive than you telling people why they voted how they did, what newspapers influenced their decisions and that they fell for claims made on a big red bus (which most of us didn't even see until you pointed it out to us).

It is of no concern to me whether holidays abroad are a rich person's privilege, I don't practice envy about what other people have or do and I'm not remotely interested in holidays abroad, haven't had one in 25 years as would not put my dogs in kennels. Touring in a motorhome is my ideal holiday - around this country particularly Scotland. I don't think you can expect people to vote on such an important issue as Brexit based on whether other peoples holidays will be more expensive.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> The paragraph highlighted however I find deeply offensive. Many who voted leave take frequent holidays abroad and believe nothing will change as regards that. They'll be a major uproar if prices do rise post Brexit.
> 
> What is wrong with affordable holidays in the sun.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You probably got confused because I spend a lot of time in Devon - Dartmoor to be precise.
> 
> Wow you are easily offended if you find that one paragraph "deeply offensive" - how is it offensive to say the following?
> 
> As to holidays abroad costing more firstly that is conjecture and secondly that will be good for our tourist industry here as more people will holiday at home and appreciate our beautiful country and all it has to offer.
> 
> I can't see how that is any more offensive than you telling people why they voted how they did, what newspapers influenced their decisions and that they fell for claims made on a big red bus (which most of us didn't even see until you pointed it out to us).
> 
> It is of no concern to me whether holidays abroad are a rich person's privilege, I don't practice envy about what other people have or do and I'm not remotely interested in holidays abroad, haven't had one in 25 years as would not put my dogs in kennels. Touring in a motorhome is my ideal holiday - around this country particularly Scotland. I don't think you can expect people to vote on such an important issue as Brexit based on whether other peoples holidays will be more expensive.


None of us can predict what will happen but I guess I was offended by the suggestion an increase in holidays abroad prices would be beneficial to the UK tourist industry and what the UK has to offer.

I take it that's what you meant.

No, I disagree. Any major increase in complications and fares to travel abroad to countries we used to with ease will cause a major uproar with frequent travellers. 
Some I know who voted leave insist nothing will change. It may not then it may well do. They'll be extremely annoyed if the cost of holidays abroad do increase. They didn't vote leave to accept that!

EU citizens in the UK still face a very uncertain future. I don't think EU countries will have much sympathy for UK citizens should deportations commence. It's an extremely worrying time for them.

Of course it should be up to the individual where they want to take their well earned holdays, be it in the UK or abroad. We have friends and family living abroad for example. We usually have a couple of days in the UK during summer for instance.

No, there's very many reasons why I support the EU, working together, not against each other. Freedom of movement to live and work within the block. The single EU/UK passport allowing for that. Many many many reasons why I support the European Union.

I was proud the UK was part of it.


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> Wow really? Then I fear you're going to be in for a very rude awakening. Hard brexit will be a disaster.


We shall see then as no one has a crystal ball to know ether way.

I know one thing I personally will make sure I do the best that I can do with whats available. I firmly believe life is what "you" (as in the individual) make it. So if I want to work in another country, or retire early, etc, I as in the individual have to make that happen.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> View attachment 300417


I'm sorry, I don't understand the relevance of this to the effects of reduced immigration on the government's tax revenue. Could you elucidate?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> None of us can predict what will happen but *I guess I was offended by the suggestion an increase in holidays abroad prices would be beneficial to the UK tourist industry and what the UK has to offer.*
> 
> I take it that's what you meant.
> 
> No, I disagree. Any major increase in complications and fares to travel abroad to countries we used to with ease will cause a major uproar with frequent travellers.
> Some I know who voted leave insist nothing will change. It may not then it may well do.
> 
> EU citizens in the UK still face a very uncertain future. I don't think EU countries will have much sympathy for UK citizens should deportations commence. It's an extremely worrying time for them.
> 
> Of course it should be up to the individual where they want to take their well earned holdays, be it in the UK or abroad. We have friends and family living abroad for example. We usually have a couple of days in the UK during summer for instance.
> 
> No, there's very many reasons why I support the EU, working together, not against each other. Freedom of movement to live and work within the block. The single EU/UK passport allowing for that. Many many many reasons why I support the European Union.
> 
> I was proud the UK was part of it.


Blimey you are easily offended. I've been called a Nazi lover on here before and had my religious beliefs pulled to pieces and can't say that it deeply offended me. Might pee me off but I'm only deeply offended by things people I know and care about say or think about me and even then not much. Deeply offended takes personal abuse not someone else's opinion about holidays


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Sorry I didn't even notice your post.
> 
> So you don't even believe the government are trashing environmental protections even when they say so themselves? Hmm ok.
> 
> The Express, Mail, Sun are all owned by non dom media barons who want out of the EU. I wonder why these rags constantly spew hate & distort facts & dress them up as 'news'???. Now take the Guardian for example - its 'opinion' pieces are clearly labelled 'opinion' - its news pieces 'news'.
> 
> Guess which are the ONLY 3 UK newspapers that have been called out by the UN over the extreme nature of their coverage?
> 
> Murdoch, Rothermere/ Dacre, Desmond & the Barclays dominate the press. They are an affront to democracy.
> 
> This is a tweet by one of my twitter friends -
> _
> My grandparents died at Auschwitz: parents told me how Hitler's publicity machine slowly made it possible.
> This is how. Constant repetition_
> 
> View attachment 300502


Brilliant post Noushka.
This is another classic:

Now, surely, ignoring those who voted regardless of the press etc., no one can surely disagree headlines like this on virtually a daily basis didn't influence many of their readers vote to leave the EU!









Yes, of course they were told the NHS would get £350m too!


----------



## 1290423

samuelsmiles said:


> Yes, when were/are those years?
> 
> My council tax has remained the same for years, taxed pretty much the same, they still collect my bins, I still have a supply of fresh water, food prices seem about the same. When exactly were the austerity years. Did I miss something?


Wish I could say the same, we did have a freeze for two or three years, brought in by the conservatives, but my council tax increased by £90 last year and I'm expecting more this year. We are in a village in Nottinghamshire, Which falls into one of the highest rated areas in the uk, we also have very few services, personally think everyone should pay the same


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Blimey you are easily offended. I've been called a Nazi lover on here before and had my religious beliefs pulled to pieces and can't say that it deeply offended me. Might pee me off but I'm only deeply offended by things people I know and care about say or think about me and even then not much. Deeply offended takes personal abuse not someone else's opinion about holidays


Well don't they say when the opponent starts hurling insults they have lost the debate


----------



## kimthecat

I see the point about some of the headlines in the papers but noticed one included in Noush's post said Its great to be British and a photos of the British Olympians and their Gold medals . 

We cant put up English flags here even when its the football , not because I'm embarrassed about how badly we play but because it's considered racist and EDL . 
So now it looks like we can't display the Union Jack in support of our teams , because it will be seen as Nationalism .
Are other countries seen as nationalistic when they wave their flags at events , I dont think so .


----------



## 1290423

Isn't today the day we are meant to show our love?
Sorry to say guys I'm not feeling it for the EU anymore then I was last year, or the year before, or the decade before either.
Yep! I'm still out just thought I'd mention it, incase there was any doubt like


----------



## Zaros

DT said:


> Isn't today the day we are meant to show our love?


Yeah!

It is!










Although there's a few prime candidates I can name who might find themselves up against the wall come the revolution.:Smug


----------



## kimthecat

About the bus slogan . Its crafty as it says

We send the EU £350m a week lets fund our NHS instead.

It doesn't actually say how much they *will* spend on the NHS .

As it turns out very little !


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Farage is over the moon with Mays brexit vision - hes getting the exact brexit he wanted. Tories & UKIP are now one & the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow really? Then I fear you're going to be in for a very rude awakening. Hard brexit will be a disaster.


Taking the first bullet point from your list, the Department for For Energy and Climate Change was not simply scrapped. It was restructured within the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to form the Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy (BEIS). The Secretary of this new department is Greg Clark - he does seem sympathetic to the green issues. 

*Could BEIS be the vehicle the low carbon economy has been waiting for? *

* Why the end of the Department for For Energy and Climate Change could be good news on climate change.*


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Brilliant post Noushka.
> This is another classic:
> 
> Now, surely, ignoring those who voted regardless of the press etc., no one can surely disagree headlines like this on virtually a daily basis didn't influence many of their readers vote to leave the EU!
> View attachment 300520
> 
> 
> Yes, of course they were told the NHS would get £350m too!


Circulation of less than half a million so I think the twitter folk trump that many millions of times over.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Blimey you are easily offended. I've been called a Nazi lover on here before and had my religious beliefs pulled to pieces and can't say that it deeply offended me. Might pee me off but I'm only deeply offended by things people I know and care about say or think about me and even then not much. Deeply offended takes personal abuse not someone else's opinion about holidays


OK, perhaps I over reacted and misunderstood your comment and took it the wrong way.

The abuse you suffered was horrible, absolutely no justification for that.

Your political and religious beliefs are your business, no one else's

I may personally disagree with you politically but we're all allowed our opinion and the freedom to express it.

I was sorry to hear you had to endure that.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Circulation of less than half a million so I think the twitter folk trump that many millions of times over.


Yes, but coupled with the Mail and Sun reporting similar stories some must have believed what they're reading was true?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Yes, but coupled with the Mail and Sun reporting similar stories some must have believed what they're reading was true?


So when I asked you yesterday if you got your information from reading The Guardian you said no you make up your own mind yet you assume that people who voted for Brexit get their information and are influenced by the newspapers you don't happen to like. That still only makes 4 million and I think a lot more than that voted to leave perhaps the rest were brainwashed by the people who were brainwashed by their friends who once read The Sun. I just don't understand why you can't accept that most people made up their own minds how to vote and that these days newspapers are not very influential because social media has now taken over.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I see the point about some of the headlines in the papers but noticed one included in Noush's post said Its great to be British and a photos of the British Olympians and their Gold medals .
> 
> We cant put up English flags here even when its the football , not because I'm embarrassed about how badly we play but because it's considered racist and EDL .
> So now it looks like we can't display the Union Jack in support of our teams , because it will be seen as Nationalism .
> Are other countries seen as nationalistic when they wave their flags at events , I dont think so .


For that, blame far right groups like the National Front and other similar extreme right groups for their abuse of the flag by using it as their symbol.

The Union Jack was never designed to promote fascism like the Swastika was to promote Nazi Germany.

The Union Jack was frequently waved at events in recent times. No one complained did they?

I for one was proud to see it waved with the EU one at the proms last year.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So when I asked you yesterday if you got your information from reading The Guardian you said no you make up your own mind yet you assume that people who voted for Brexit get their information and are influenced by the newspapers you don't happen to like. That still only makes 4 million and I think a lot more than that voted to leave perhaps the rest were brainwashed by the people who were brainwashed by their friends who once read The Sun. I just don't understand why you can't accept that most people made up their own minds how to vote and that these days newspapers are not very influential because social media has now taken over.


I suppose that's like saying I voted remain because I look at the Guardian and Independent. I do see where you're coming from.

Yes, I agree to a point but one must remember the Sun at the 1992 General Election as an example. The front page article just before the election when Labour were ahead in the polls which were pretty reliable in those days.

Agreed, most people make up their minds but others, usually "floaters" who can make the difference may consult their paper or other media source.

How is it with the many general elections over the years can change a government? Some of course will vote Tory, others Labour regardless. It's those "floating voters" who make that difference.

Tony Blair won a landslide in 1997, after 18 years of Tory rule. Guess which paper backed him and throughout his three terms?

People don't actually have to buy the papers to see these headlines either. Pop in to any newsagent etc. and they stare out at you.

Yes, social media will be contributing too, yes I agree it'll become more influential than the press in the future.

Could be partially the reason why a certain media mogul wants outright control of his satellite operations.


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> This is your vision, mine is very different.
> 
> . All I see at the moment, is that woman taking her time and doing a ruddy good job


Exactly, think many thought she would buckle at the first hurdle, shes doing a sterling job. I do wonder if there is even a male politician in any party that could have handled the task as well as she


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> You can retire whenever you want @noushka05 as long as you have savings to do it, this is to do with state retirement which was set to go up anyway through the previous labour Government and previous conservative government under Cameron and Osborne. Brexit can't be blamed for the retirement age being increased. I think this was already debated only one or two pages back.
> 
> Things will cost more they normally do, the price of food is always on the increase, it's nothing new.


And lets not forget that inflation has been abnormally low for a good number of years now, it was bound to inflate sooner or later.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, well, well
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38972214


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Sorry I didn't even notice your post.


That's fine, but you would have had an alert for it, so I'll take that with a pinch of salt.
But as usual, you still didn't answer my question.
Wev'e seen all those pics of the newspapers before. You are just going round in circles, repeating the same old thing.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Well, well, well
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38972214
> 
> View attachment 300543


WTF has that got to do with Brexit?

Oh wait

"The MEP, who is standing in the Stoke Central by-election"

He is an MEP - all the more reason to get rid of them


----------



## Honeys mum

Brussels admit UK economy is thriving since Brexit vote as they upgrade growth forecast | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

Well I never.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Well, well, well
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38972214
> 
> View attachment 300543


Let me guess! 
You are a gardener, am I right?


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> Brussels admit UK economy is thriving since Brexit vote as they upgrade growth forecast | Politics | News | Express.co.uk
> 
> Well I never.


Wait for the echooooooooo


----------



## rona

Honeys mum said:


> Brussels admit UK economy is thriving since Brexit vote as they upgrade growth forecast | Politics | News | Express.co.uk
> 
> Well I never.


OMG a news paper article


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> Well, well, well
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38972214
> 
> View attachment 300543


What did he mean when he said; _'We will never get to the bottom of this'_

I thought we did.

The Police grievously phuqt up. Then they lied and to add insult to the multitude of injuries they falsified statements. :Rage


----------



## Honeys mum

Sorry I didn't even notice your post.

So you don't even believe the government are trashing environmental protections even when they say so themselves? Hmm ok.

The Express, Mail, Sun are all owned by non dom media barons who want out of the EU. I wonder why these rags constantly spew hate & distort facts & dress them up as 'news'???. Now take the Guardian for example - its 'opinion' pieces are clearly labelled 'opinion' - its news pieces 'news'.

Guess which are the ONLY 3 UK newspapers that have been called out by the UN over the extreme nature of their coverage?

Murdoch, Rothermere/ Dacre, Desmond & the Barclays dominate the press. They are an affront to democracy.

This is a tweet by one of my twitter friends -
_
My grandparents died at Auschwitz: parents told me how Hitler's publicity machine slowly made it possible. 
This is how. Constant repetition_

View attachment 300502
Click to expand...
Brilliant post Noushka.
This is another classic:

What's so brilliant about the above post.
I haven't said anywhere That I believe the following.



noushka05 said:


> So you don't even believe the government are trashing environmental protections even when they say so themselves? Hmm ok.


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> OMG a news paper article


Duh! Don't you mean comic


----------



## Honeys mum

DT said:


> Wait for the echooooooooo


I will DT.


----------



## rona

https://ec.europa.eu/info/files/winter-2017-economic-forecast-united-kingdom_en


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> This is another classic:
> 
> Now, surely, ignoring those who voted regardless of the press etc., no one can surely disagree headlines like this on virtually a daily basis didn't influence many of their readers vote to leave the EU!


Lord Nigel Crisp: How to rebuild the NHS | Big Issue


----------



## stockwellcat.

Because this has been mentioned more than once I thought I would clarify the UK State Pension Age which was going to go up anyway. Nothing to do with Brexit.
































You can use this calculator to clarify your state retirement age: https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-age

Or you can see the attached PDF.

You are allowed to retire at any age as well as long as you have enough savings and/or private pensions (private pension companies don't usually pay out until you reach the age of 55 or 57 onwards due to the change in retirement laws in the UK) to be able to support yourself.

And one final thing you can retire on a UK state pension in any country in this world as long as you have paid enough National Insurance Contributions to qualify for a UK state pension and can apply through here: https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/how-to-claim


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> WTF has that got to do with Brexit?
> 
> Oh wait
> 
> "The MEP, who is standing in the Stoke Central by-election"
> 
> He is an MEP - all the more reason to get rid of them


UKIP ones at least. If they hate the EU so much why become an MEP? Oh yes, to destroy them from the inside.

Yes, I should have started a new thread as, apart from that this has little to do with Brexit.

Apologies moderators.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> OMG a news paper article


This was also reported in the press, so I deliberately used the BBC as a source seeing they're reported this as well!


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> https://ec.europa.eu/info/files/winter-2017-economic-forecast-united-kingdom_en


The UK hasn't left yet....


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Oh yes, to destroy them from the inside.
> 
> .


Well someone needed to


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> This was also reported in the press, so I deliberately used the BBC as a source seeing they're reported this as well!


Eh.......I wasn't quoting you


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The UK hasn't left yet....


And we won't be next year either.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> UKIP ones at least. If they hate the EU so much why become an MEP? Oh yes, to destroy them from the inside.
> 
> Yes, I should have started a new thread as, apart from that this has little to do with Brexit.
> 
> Apologies moderators.


To make money out of the gravy train that mugs like us fund.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> And we won't be next year either.


Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Maybe, maybe not.


I don't think Theresa will rush things


----------



## rona

Oh and take note.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-251_en.htm

Inflation in the euro area has recently picked up as the past drop of energy prices has recently given way to an increase. Having been very low over the past two years, inflation is now set to reach higher levels this year and next, though still short of the target of "below, but close to 2% over the medium term" defined as price stability. Core inflation, which excludes volatile energy and food prices, is set to rise only gradually. Overall, inflation in the euro area is expected to increase from 0.2% in 2016 to 1.7% in 2017 and 1.4% in 2018. In the EU, inflation is forecast to rise from 0.3% in 2016 to 1.8% in 2017 and 1.7% in 2018.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

stockwellcat said:


> well oh well the remain camp is using mini snipits to try and make the leave camp like they are lying when in fact they are lying.


Oh, both sides will be lying at some point or another. Anyone involved in politics does if it suits their purpose.

Apart from George Washington, allegedly.


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> I don't think Theresa will rush things


Oh I don't know Rona, it's looking like she's not going to hang around getting the ball rolling, I have a feeling we are going to see a very strong willed lady emerge here, one that 'some' won't want to mess with!
We could well be seeing in the headlines 'what the lady wants the lady gets'
My faith in her to pull this off to our advantage is growing by the day.
Guess time will tell.


----------



## KittenKong

.http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/workshop_of_the_world_01.shtml


----------



## KittenKong

Ignoring the UK at the moment I don't understand this hatred and venom shown towards the EU from so many.

Is over 60 years of peace between the nations not evidence of its effectiveness?

Yes, Nato too of course.

Does anyone think the world would be a safer place if the EU collapsed and Trump disbands Nato?

Something to think about...


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Taking the first bullet point from your list, the Department for For Energy and Climate Change was not simply scrapped. It was restructured within the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to form the Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy (BEIS). The Secretary of this new department is Greg Clark - he does seem sympathetic to the green issues.
> 
> *Could BEIS be the vehicle the low carbon economy has been waiting for? *
> 
> * Why the end of the Department for For Energy and Climate Change could be good news on climate change.*


Yes scrapped - as in closed! The watered down effort now merged with the DBIS despite climate change being the biggest challenge we face. The greedy short termists don't give a [email protected] Have you not heard about DIBS plans to sell our green investment bank to an asset stripper?  http://press.labour.org.uk/post/155716728279/government-should-stop-the-sale-of-the-green Another example of how seriously they take climate change.

(have you checked out the rest of the list yet? )



Honeys mum said:


> That's fine, but you would have had an alert for it, so I'll take that with a pinch of salt.
> But as usual, you still didn't answer my question.
> Wev'e seen all those pics of the newspapers before. You are just going round in circles, repeating the same old thing.


I must miss loads of posts. I don't always check every single notification when I get a batch of them together lol I answered your question. If your alarm bells aren't ringing when the tories themselves are telling us what they intend to do, then god knows wha will make you realise brexit can only mean bad news. The tabloids I tend to reference are in a different league to the right wing gutter press & I explained why. I have posted that pic of the hate mongering rags with my own comment before. This time its my friend friend who posted the same pic to make the point the same thing happened with the media in Nazi Germany. You pulled me up for not responding, so I did, yet it doesn't sound as though you even bothered to read my words.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Lord Nigel Crisp: How to rebuild the NHS | Big Issue


Unless the masses wake up soon, our NHS will be gone forever.

Why do you think the tories voted against amendments to the brexit bill concerning giving funding to the NHS? Why do you think there is no mention of the NHS in their white paper? Why has Jeremy Hunt been over in New York touting our NHS to corporate America.

The tories are threatening to turn Britain into a deregulated tax haven. Where will the money come from for our NHS & public services?

If you cant trust the tories with the NHS I'm baffled why anyone would trust them with the country.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Unless the masses wake up soon, our NHS will be gone forever.
> 
> Why do you think the tories voted against amendments to the brexit bill concerning giving funding to the NHS? Why do you think there is no mention of the NHS in their white paper? Why has Jeremy Hunt been over in New York touting our NHS to corporate America.
> 
> The tories are threatening to turn Britain into a deregulated tax haven. Where will the money come from for our NHS & public services?
> 
> If you cant trust the tories with the NHS I'm baffled why anyone would trust them with the country.


Many are in denial. It's only when it happens they'll realise, then it will be too late.

They'll just regard it as " scaremongering" at the present time.

We know fine well it isn't........


----------



## noushka05

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Circulation of less than half a million so I think the twitter folk trump that many millions of times over.


But people from all political ends of the spectrum are on twitter. Politicians from all parties. Trump! The right wing media dominates the press in the UK.



KittenKong said:


> Many are in denial. It's only when it happens they'll realise, then it will be too late.
> 
> They'll just regard it as " scaremongering" at the present time.
> 
> We know fine well it isn't........


And when brexit invariably fails the leave extremists will find another scapegoat - us remoaners lol Some are already trying to line up blame in anticipation of the looming disaster - https://countrysquire.co.uk/2016/12/08/remainers-push-for-hard-brexit/


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Why do you think the tories voted against amendments to the brexit bill concerning giving funding to the NHS?


Because it was a silly amendment.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> But people from all political ends of the spectrum are on twitter. Politicians from all parties. Trump! The right wing media dominates the press in the UK.
> 
> And when brexit invariably fails the leave extremists will find another scapegoat - us remoaners lol Some are already trying to line up blame in anticipation of the looming disaster - https://countrysquire.co.uk/2016/12/08/remainers-push-for-hard-brexit/


Good article. Thanks. I particularly liked......

"There's no reason Britain can't make a success of any style of Brexit, but it's certainly not ideal that our hand is being forced by undemocratic elitists, and those elements of the media who turn into intellectually stunted dullards when attempting to get a handle on EU antipathy. ("Duh, shall we go with the racist angle again?")

Something these anti-democrats can never get their heads around is patriotism. The idea that a citizenry could be willing to risk a short-term financial hit in order to secure priceless, permanent sovereignty is apparently unfathomable.

They also have difficulty reconciling national integrity with being an outward looking, internationally-minded country, but of course there is no conflict between these things. Right now it's the EU that appears stagnant and insular, while an independent, agile Britain looks fresh and ready to do business."


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Because it was a silly amendment.


Lots of people only voted leave because of that promise:Nurse


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Good article. Thanks. I particularly liked......
> 
> "There's no reason Britain can't make a success of any style of Brexit, but it's certainly not ideal that our hand is being forced by undemocratic elitists, and those elements of the media who turn into intellectually stunted dullards when attempting to get a handle on EU antipathy. ("Duh, shall we go with the racist angle again?")
> 
> Something these anti-democrats can never get their heads around is patriotism. The idea that a citizenry could be willing to risk a short-term financial hit in order to secure priceless, permanent sovereignty is apparently unfathomable.
> 
> They also have difficulty reconciling national integrity with being an outward looking, internationally-minded country, but of course there is no conflict between these things. Right now it's the EU that appears stagnant and insular, while an independent, agile Britain looks fresh and ready to do business."


I knew you would:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Why do you think the tories voted against amendments to the brexit bill concerning giving funding to the NHS?


I am going to correct you. Parliament voted against this amendment (Conservatives, Labour, UKIP, SNP, Green Party, Welsh Political Parties, Northern Irish Political Parties and Lib Dems voted and all had there say).


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If you cant trust the tories with the NHS *I'm baffled why anyone would trust them with the country*.


I'd rather trust this Government than trust the Labour party who has a leader who wants to turn the UK back to the 1970's.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> And when brexit invariably fails the leave extremists will find another scapegoat - us remoaners lol Some are already trying to line up blame in anticipation of the looming disaster - https://countrysquire.co.uk/2016/12/08/remainers-push-for-hard-brexit/


Not surprising in the slightest.

There's already evidence of that, "Enemies of Britain" in the Mail, even from one or two members of this forum.

Halting the "Will of the people" and the "democratic process"

Hilarious!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> I am going to correct you. Parliament voted against this amendment (Conservatives, Labour, UKIP, SNP, Green Party and Lib Dems voted and all had there say).


And I am going to correct you right back The Green Party (Caroline Lucas) & the SNP voted for non of this mess!

Imagine voting for any of these

MPs who voted against Chuka Umunna's NHS amendment:

*Labour*

Frank Field

Kate Hoey

Kelvin Hopkins

Graham Stringer

Gisela Stuart

*Ukip*

Douglas Carswell

*Conservative*

Nigel Adams

Adam Afriyie

Peter Aldous

Lucy Allan

Heidi Allen

David Amess

Stuart Andrew

Caroline Ansell

Edward Argar

Victoria Atkins

Richard Bacon

Steven Baker

Harriett Baldwin

Stephen Barclay

John Baron

Gavin Barwell

Guto Bebb

Henry Bellingham

Richard Benyon

Paul Beresford

Jake Berry James

Berry Andrew Bingham

Bob Blackman

Nicola Blackwood

Crispin Blunt

Nicholas Boles

Peter Bone

Victoria Borwick

Peter Bottomley

Karen Bradley

Graham Brady

Julian Brazier

Andrew Bridgen

Steve Brine

James Brokenshire

Fiona Bruce

Robert Buckland Conor Burns Simon Burns David Burrowes Alistair Burt Alun Cairns Neil Carmichael James Cartlidge Bill Cash Maria Caulfield Alex Chalk

Rehman Chishti Christopher Chope Jo Churchill Greg Clark James Cleverly Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Therese Coffey Damian Collins Oliver Colvile Alberto Costa Robert Courts

Geoffrey Cox Stephen Crabb Tracey Crouch Byron Davies Chris Davies David Davies Glyn Davies James Davies Mims Davies Philip Davies David Davis

Caroline Dinenage Jonathan Djanogly Michelle Donelan Nadine Dorries Steve Double Oliver Dowden Jackie Doyle-Price Richard Drax Flick Drummond James Duddridge Alan Duncan

Iain Duncan Smith Philip Dunne Michael Ellis Jane Ellison Tobias Ellwood Charlie Elphicke George Eustice Graham Evans Nigel Evans David Evennett Michael Fabricant

Michael Fallon Suella Fernandes Mark Field Kevin Foster Liam Fox Mark Francois Lucy Frazer George Freeman Mike Freer Richard Fuller Marcus Fysh

Edward Garnier Mark Garnier David Gauke Nusrat Ghani Nick Gibb Cheryl Gillan John Glen Robert Goodwill Michael Gove Richard Graham James Gray

Chris Grayling Chris Green Damian Green Justine Greening Dominic Grieve Andrew Griffiths Ben Gummer Sam Gyimah Robert Halfon Luke Hall Philip Hammond

Stephen Hammond Matthew Hancock Greg Hands Mark Harper Richard Harrington Rebecca Harris Simon Hart Alan Haselhurst John Hayes Oliver Heald James Heappey

Chris Heaton-Harris Peter Heaton-Jones Gordon Henderson Damian Hinds Simon Hoare George Hollingbery Kevin Hollinrake Philip Hollobone Adam Holloway Kris Hopkins Gerald Howarth

John Howell Ben Howlett Nigel Huddleston Jeremy Hunt Nick Hurd Stewart Jackson Margot James Sajid Javid Ranil Jayawardena Bernard Jenkin Andrea Jenkyns

Robert Jenrick Boris Johnson Dr Caroline Johnson Gareth Johnson Jo Johnson Andrew Jones David Jones Marcus Jones Daniel Kawczynski Seema Kennedy Simon Kirby

Greg Knight Julian Knight Kwasi Kwarteng Mark Lancaster Pauline Latham Andrea Leadsom Phillip Lee Jeremy Lefroy Edward Leigh Charlotte Leslie Oliver Letwin

Brandon Lewis Julian Lewis Ian Liddell-Grainger David Lidington Peter Lilley Jack Lopresti Jonathan Lord Tim Loughton Karen Lumley Craig Mackinlay David Mackintos

Anne Main Alan Mak Kit Malthouse Scott Mann Tania Mathias Theresa May Paul Maynard Jason McCartney Karl McCartney Patrick McLoughlin Stephen McPartlan

Mark Menzies Johnny Mercer Huw Merriman Stephen Metcalfe Maria Miller Amanda Milling Nigel Mills Anne Milton Andrew Mitchell Penny Mordaunt Nicky Morgan

Anne Marie Morris David Morris James Morris Wendy Morton David Mowat David Mundell Sheryll Murray Andrew Murrison Bob Neill Sarah Newton Caroline Nokes

Jesse Norman David Nuttall Matthew Offord Guy Opperman Neil Parish Priti Patel Owen Paterson Mark Pawsey Mike Penning John Penrose Andrew Percy

Claire Perry Chris Philp Eric Pickles Christopher Pincher Daniel Poulter Rebecca Pow Victoria Prentis Mark Prisk Mark Pritchard Tom Pursglove

Jeremy Quin Will Quince Dominic Raab John Redwood Jacob Rees-Mogg Laurence Robertson Mary Robinson Andrew Rosindell Amber Rudd David Rutley Antoinette Sandbach

Paul Scully Andrew Selous Grant Shapps Alok Sharma Alec Shelbrooke Keith Simpson Chris Skidmore Chloe Smith Henry Smith Julian Smith Royston Smith

Nicholas Soames Amanda Solloway Anna Soubry Caroline Spelman Mark Spencer Andrew Stephenson John Stevenson Bob Stewart Iain Stewart Rory Stewart Gary Streeter

Mel Stride Graham Stuart Julian Sturdy Rishi Sunak Desmond Swayne Hugo Swire Robert Syms Derek Thomas Maggie Throup Edward Timpson Kelly Tolhurst

Justin Tomlinson Michael Tomlinson Craig Tracey David Tredinnick Anne-Marie Trevelyan Elizabeth Truss Thomas Tugendhat Andrew Turner Andrew Tyrie Ed Vaizey Shailesh Vara

Martin Vickers Theresa Villiers Charles Walker Robin Walker Ben Wallace David Warburton Matt Warman Angela Watkinson James Wharton Helen Whately Heather Wheeler

Chris White Craig Whittaker John Whittingdale Bill Wiggin Craig Williams Gavin Williamson Rob Wilson Sarah Wollaston William Wragg Jeremy Wright Nadhim Zahawi

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/brexit-bill-mps-voted-chuka-umunnas-nhs-amendment/


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> And I am going to correct you right back The Green Party (Caroline Lucas) & the SNP voted for non of this mess!
> 
> Imagine voting for any of these
> 
> MPs who voted against Chuka Umunna's NHS amendment:
> 
> *Labour*
> 
> Frank Field
> 
> Kate Hoey
> 
> Kelvin Hopkins
> 
> Graham Stringer
> 
> Gisela Stuart
> 
> *Ukip*
> 
> Douglas Carswell
> 
> *Conservative*
> 
> Nigel Adams
> 
> Adam Afriyie
> 
> Peter Aldous
> 
> Lucy Allan
> 
> Heidi Allen
> 
> David Amess
> 
> Stuart Andrew
> 
> Caroline Ansell
> 
> Edward Argar
> 
> Victoria Atkins
> 
> Richard Bacon
> 
> Steven Baker
> 
> Harriett Baldwin
> 
> Stephen Barclay
> 
> John Baron
> 
> Gavin Barwell
> 
> Guto Bebb
> 
> Henry Bellingham
> 
> Richard Benyon
> 
> Paul Beresford
> 
> Jake Berry James
> 
> Berry Andrew Bingham
> 
> Bob Blackman
> 
> Nicola Blackwood
> 
> Crispin Blunt
> 
> Nicholas Boles
> 
> Peter Bone
> 
> Victoria Borwick
> 
> Peter Bottomley
> 
> Karen Bradley
> 
> Graham Brady
> 
> Julian Brazier
> 
> Andrew Bridgen
> 
> Steve Brine
> 
> James Brokenshire
> 
> Fiona Bruce
> 
> Robert Buckland Conor Burns Simon Burns David Burrowes Alistair Burt Alun Cairns Neil Carmichael James Cartlidge Bill Cash Maria Caulfield Alex Chalk
> 
> Rehman Chishti Christopher Chope Jo Churchill Greg Clark James Cleverly Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Therese Coffey Damian Collins Oliver Colvile Alberto Costa Robert Courts
> 
> Geoffrey Cox Stephen Crabb Tracey Crouch Byron Davies Chris Davies David Davies Glyn Davies James Davies Mims Davies Philip Davies David Davis
> 
> Caroline Dinenage Jonathan Djanogly Michelle Donelan Nadine Dorries Steve Double Oliver Dowden Jackie Doyle-Price Richard Drax Flick Drummond James Duddridge Alan Duncan
> 
> Iain Duncan Smith Philip Dunne Michael Ellis Jane Ellison Tobias Ellwood Charlie Elphicke George Eustice Graham Evans Nigel Evans David Evennett Michael Fabricant
> 
> Michael Fallon Suella Fernandes Mark Field Kevin Foster Liam Fox Mark Francois Lucy Frazer George Freeman Mike Freer Richard Fuller Marcus Fysh
> 
> Edward Garnier Mark Garnier David Gauke Nusrat Ghani Nick Gibb Cheryl Gillan John Glen Robert Goodwill Michael Gove Richard Graham James Gray
> 
> Chris Grayling Chris Green Damian Green Justine Greening Dominic Grieve Andrew Griffiths Ben Gummer Sam Gyimah Robert Halfon Luke Hall Philip Hammond
> 
> Stephen Hammond Matthew Hancock Greg Hands Mark Harper Richard Harrington Rebecca Harris Simon Hart Alan Haselhurst John Hayes Oliver Heald James Heappey
> 
> Chris Heaton-Harris Peter Heaton-Jones Gordon Henderson Damian Hinds Simon Hoare George Hollingbery Kevin Hollinrake Philip Hollobone Adam Holloway Kris Hopkins Gerald Howarth
> 
> John Howell Ben Howlett Nigel Huddleston Jeremy Hunt Nick Hurd Stewart Jackson Margot James Sajid Javid Ranil Jayawardena Bernard Jenkin Andrea Jenkyns
> 
> Robert Jenrick Boris Johnson Dr Caroline Johnson Gareth Johnson Jo Johnson Andrew Jones David Jones Marcus Jones Daniel Kawczynski Seema Kennedy Simon Kirby
> 
> Greg Knight Julian Knight Kwasi Kwarteng Mark Lancaster Pauline Latham Andrea Leadsom Phillip Lee Jeremy Lefroy Edward Leigh Charlotte Leslie Oliver Letwin
> 
> Brandon Lewis Julian Lewis Ian Liddell-Grainger David Lidington Peter Lilley Jack Lopresti Jonathan Lord Tim Loughton Karen Lumley Craig Mackinlay David Mackintos
> 
> Anne Main Alan Mak Kit Malthouse Scott Mann Tania Mathias Theresa May Paul Maynard Jason McCartney Karl McCartney Patrick McLoughlin Stephen McPartlan
> 
> Mark Menzies Johnny Mercer Huw Merriman Stephen Metcalfe Maria Miller Amanda Milling Nigel Mills Anne Milton Andrew Mitchell Penny Mordaunt Nicky Morgan
> 
> Anne Marie Morris David Morris James Morris Wendy Morton David Mowat David Mundell Sheryll Murray Andrew Murrison Bob Neill Sarah Newton Caroline Nokes
> 
> Jesse Norman David Nuttall Matthew Offord Guy Opperman Neil Parish Priti Patel Owen Paterson Mark Pawsey Mike Penning John Penrose Andrew Percy
> 
> Claire Perry Chris Philp Eric Pickles Christopher Pincher Daniel Poulter Rebecca Pow Victoria Prentis Mark Prisk Mark Pritchard Tom Pursglove
> 
> Jeremy Quin Will Quince Dominic Raab John Redwood Jacob Rees-Mogg Laurence Robertson Mary Robinson Andrew Rosindell Amber Rudd David Rutley Antoinette Sandbach
> 
> Paul Scully Andrew Selous Grant Shapps Alok Sharma Alec Shelbrooke Keith Simpson Chris Skidmore Chloe Smith Henry Smith Julian Smith Royston Smith
> 
> Nicholas Soames Amanda Solloway Anna Soubry Caroline Spelman Mark Spencer Andrew Stephenson John Stevenson Bob Stewart Iain Stewart Rory Stewart Gary Streeter
> 
> Mel Stride Graham Stuart Julian Sturdy Rishi Sunak Desmond Swayne Hugo Swire Robert Syms Derek Thomas Maggie Throup Edward Timpson Kelly Tolhurst
> 
> Justin Tomlinson Michael Tomlinson Craig Tracey David Tredinnick Anne-Marie Trevelyan Elizabeth Truss Thomas Tugendhat Andrew Turner Andrew Tyrie Ed Vaizey Shailesh Vara
> 
> Martin Vickers Theresa Villiers Charles Walker Robin Walker Ben Wallace David Warburton Matt Warman Angela Watkinson James Wharton Helen Whately Heather Wheeler
> 
> Chris White Craig Whittaker John Whittingdale Bill Wiggin Craig Williams Gavin Williamson Rob Wilson Sarah Wollaston William Wragg Jeremy Wright Nadhim Zahawi
> 
> Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/brexit-bill-mps-voted-chuka-umunnas-nhs-amendment/


But I was right it wasn't just the Tories as you put it that voted the amendment down, it was Parliament. The point is everyone got a say in Parliament as it was debated about first. I noticed you missed off all the other parties that voted down this amendment including Northern Ireland and Wales


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> I'd rather trust this Government than trust the Labour party who has a leader who wants to turn the UK back to the 1970's.


NHS in a state of collapse, savage cuts to public services, rising debt and falling living standards. The country has never been in such a mess. Give me labour any day of the week.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> NHS in a state of collapse, savage cuts to public services, rising debt and falling living standards. The country has never been in such a mess. Give me labour any day of the week.


And under a Labour Government the NHS received bouncing cheques :Muted and Labour sold parts of the NHS off to Private companies.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> But I was right it wasn't just the Tories as you put it that voted the amendment down, it was Parliament. The point is everyone got a say in Parliament.


EVERYONE in the leave camp voted it down lol. The few labour members who voted it down should be deselected. They are a disgrace, labour created our NHS!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> And under a Labour Government the NHS received bouncing cheques :Muted and Labour sold parts of the NHS off to Private companies.


In case you hadn't noticed labour haven't been in power for 7 years  This crisis was deliberately manufactured by the tories. Research the health & social care act 2012 & STPs


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> EVERYONE in the leave camp voted it down lol. The few labour members who voted it down should be deselected. They are a disgrace, labour created our NHS!


No that's not true.
The majority of the MP's were remain supporters that voted down all the amendments, you just highlight the leave supporters in Parliament to try and strengthen your debate, I watched it live on TV for 3 days on the Parliament channel. The leave supporting MP's said they were voting the amendments down because they weren't going to disrupt or go against the will of the people.

I notice now that you are trying to make it out the Conservative solely led the leave campaign by highlighting it was them that voted the amendments down. That's not true either. Cameron and the Conservatives led the remain campaign.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> No that's not true.
> The majority of the MP's were remain supporters that voted down all the amendments, you just highlight the leave supporters in Parliament to try and strengthen your debate.


Not defending them because ANYONE who voted it down is despicable, but they didn't deliberately mislead people there would be £350 million for the NHS, did they?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> No that's not true.
> The majority of the MP's were remain supporters that voted down all the amendments, you just highlight the leave supporters in Parliament to try and strengthen your debate, I watched it live on TV for 3 days on the Parliament channel. The leave supporting MP's said they were voting the amendments down because they weren't going to disrupt or go against the will of the people.
> 
> I notice now that you are trying to make it out the Conservative solely led the leave campaign by highlighting it was them that voted the amendments down. That's not true either. Cameron and the Conservatives led the remain campaign.


Yes, mostly TORIES.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Not defending them because ANYONE who voted it down is despicable, but they didn't deliberately mislead people there would be £350 million for the NHS, did they?


Oh come off it. The remain side told lies to you know that, and Open Britain are still peddling lies by using snippets of information to try and back there cause.

We have been over this over and over again and the answers are still the same.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Yes, mostly TORIES.


Actually mostly Labour as well, if you look at the size of there party and who voted for and against.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> In case you hadn't noticed labour haven't been in power for 7 years  This crisis was deliberately manufactured by the tories. Research the health & social care act 2012 & STPs


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Oh come off it. The remain side told lies to you know that, and Open Britain are still peddling lies by using snippets of information to try and back there cause.
> 
> We have been over this over and over again and the answers are still the same.


Both the right wing camp was led by liars. As I've said a zillions times I never trust *any* of them. I put my faith in Caroline Lucas & other respected individuals & NGOs. And boy am I thankful I did


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Actually mostly Labour as well, if you look at the size of there party and who voted for and against.


5 unprincipled labour MPs voted it down. I don't think any tory voted it down, did they?



stockwellcat said:


> Thank god they haven't been in power in the last 7 years this country would have been in a right mess if they had. I know what's coming next so I'll take my glass off so I can't read it (a dig at the Tories from noush)


:Hilarious:Hilarious Yes & the tories have turned this country into utopian dream.:Hilarious

I want to live on your planet


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> 5 unprincipled labour MPs voted it down. I don't think any tory voted it down, did they?


Yes they did vote it down that's how the Amendments got rejected, they didn't vote for the amendments they voted against (voted down). Only 5 Labour MP's voted for it the rest of Labour voted it down (against it).



> I want to live on your planet


Sorry it's full


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> They are a disgrace, labour created our NHS!


Anyone can father a child. But it takes someone special to nuture and care for it many of the scandals surrounding the National Health were created by the last government, I'm not going to post examples here I'll just let anyone who's interested check themselves and draw their own conclusions


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Is over 60 years of peace between the nations not evidence of its effectiveness?


No it just shows that the leaders of those countries have got together to fleece the people, therefore having no need to fall out with each other and use those same people as war fodder to line their pockets



stockwellcat said:


> Cameron and the Conservatives led the remain campaign.


Off course they did, they were getting rich off us all


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> No it just shows that the leaders of those countries have got together to fleece the people, therefore having no need to fall out with each other and use those same people as war fodder to line their pockets
> 
> Off course they did, they were getting rich off us all


Worth it though don't you think, cheaper than the spoils of war and the destruction and carnage it causes, not forgetting the number of lives lost.....


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Lots of people only voted leave because of that promise:Nurse


Nah. I can't reconcile the idea of someone being stupid enough to believe that whilst simultaneously having the intellectual capacity to find their polling station and tick a box. It doesnt add up.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> I knew you would:Hilarious


Proves I read your links too.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> I'd rather trust this Government than trust the Labour party who has a leader who wants to turn the UK back to the 1970's.


Lol. I always find it amusing that 'progressive' in politics means to go backwards.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> You are of course entitled to your opinion


That is very magnanimous of you!


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Anyone can father a child. But it takes someone special to nuture and care for it many of the scandals surrounding the National Health were created by the last government, I'm not going to post examples here I'll just let anyone who's interested check themselves and draw their own conclusions


Are labour to blame for these?

Hospitals set to close.


Ealing

Alston 
Maryport
 Wigton 
Hinkley 
Rutland 
Bolsover
 Newholme 
Alderney 
Westhaven 
Ashburton 
Bovey
 Dartmouth 
Paignton


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Are labour to blame for these?
> 
> Hospitals set to close.
> 
> 
> Ealing
> 
> Alston
> Maryport
> Wigton
> Hinkley
> Rutland
> Bolsover
> Newholme
> Alderney
> Westhaven
> Ashburton
> Bovey
> Dartmouth
> Paignton


I quickly looked up the first Hospital and it is merging with another hospital according to the attached PDF.

Ealing Hospital also has a very bad performance level and one of the worst A&E wait times in London and is ranked 5th worst hospital in the UK.
*Worst A&E waiting times in London at Northwick Park and Ealing Hospital*
http://www.kilburntimes.co.uk/news/..._northwick_park_and_ealing_hospital_1_3911291


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Nah. I can't reconcile the idea of someone being stupid enough to believe that whilst simultaneously having the intellectual capacity to find their polling station and tick a box. It doesnt add up.


Are you serious? (I know you're not lol) Some even voted out because they wanted bent bananas:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> *Off course they did, they were getting rich off us all*


I'm pretty sure you were championing these crooks before the general election



stockwellcat said:


> I quickly looked up the first Hospital and it is merging with another hospital according to the attached PDF.
> 
> Ealing Hospital also has a very bad performance level and one of the worst A&E wait times in London and is ranked 5th worst hospital in the UK.
> *Worst A&E waiting times in London at Northwick Park and Ealing Hospital*
> http://www.kilburntimes.co.uk/news/..._northwick_park_and_ealing_hospital_1_3911291


If you want to be informed you really need to hear what the doctors & NHS professionals are saying SWC.

Have you heard about the secret plan to cut almost 8,000 NHS jobs & slash services in NW London?


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> I'm pretty sure you were championing these crooks before the general election


Aye, and during the run up to Christmas certain members were calling for help to fill up General Chat with a directory of random threads so that threads such as this one eventually slipped into the background.

And yet here they are prolonging its existence.

People realise something has gone catastrophically wrong with the idea of government and that government has drifted so far from its purpose of serving the people as a whole and, because of this, they also realise that they have nothing left but the choice of a lesser conceived evil.

I think what you do is to be highly commended Noush' If only there were more sentinels/Gate watchers.

However, have you ever thought you were wasting your energies?

Being a lighthouse for the flotilla of ships that carelessly sail the waters of this life, all the while failing to acknowledge your guiding light and, thus, dismissing the treacherous sand banks and rocks about them, must, more often than not, bring you to the decision to simply turn out your warning beacon and let them to their own fate.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Yes scrapped - as in closed! The watered down effort now merged with the DBIS despite climate change being the biggest challenge we face. The greedy short termists don't give a [email protected] Have you not heard about DIBS plans to sell our green investment bank to an asset stripper?  http://press.labour.org.uk/post/155716728279/government-should-stop-the-sale-of-the-green Another example of how seriously they take climate change.
> 
> (have you checked out the rest of the list yet? )
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't read either of the two links, did you? I'll highlight a few paragraphs so you don't have to do so but, to be informed and less biased, it would be worth your while.
> 
> _"May's appointments to key BEIS positions appear to confirm this. Greg Clark, the Secretary of State, previously served as shadow DECC secretary (2008-2010) and is widely considered to be an ally of the green movement. In 2010, the man who was expected to succeed Ed Miliband at DECC - pipped to the government post by his Lib Dem coalition partners - argued that sticking to a high carbon path was 'the biggest threat to our prosperity, social fairness and economy'."
> 
> "Six years later, in his (Greg Clark's) first statement as BEIS secretary, he highlighted 'delivering affordable, clean energy and tackling climate change' as priorities for the new department."
> _
> _"The minister responsible for delivering the last of these ambitions, Nick Hurd, is also an outspoken advocate for climate change action and was earlier in 2016 named 'MP of the Year' at a green awards ceremony."_
> 
> _"Having responsibility for industry and climate change within the same department should lead to new policies for low carbon growth that, as Greg Clark has pointed out in to reference renewable energy infrastructure, will 'build new industries and create new jobs'."
> _
> ps Yes, I have been keeping a keen eye on the Green Investment Bank developments - a wonderful and innovative initiative in part started by the Conservatives. Hopefully enough pressure will be put on Theresa May to do the best thing for its continued success.
Click to expand...


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I'm pretty sure you were championing these crooks before the general election
> 
> If you want to be informed you really need to hear what the doctors & NHS professionals are saying SWC.
> 
> Have you heard about the secret plan to cut almost 8,000 NHS jobs & slash services in NW London?
> 
> View attachment 300587
> 
> View attachment 300588


Noush no one is saying the NHS isn't in crisis, we know it is. But the question is how do we resolve it? Labours bouncing NHS cheques or Conservative cuts?

The NHS is still on top of the crisis one of the best performing FREE services available in Europe.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
similar to the Victorian-era economy of Britain, the economic policies of Japan, while not ignoring workplace hazards, etc, have used women as a safety-valve for decades:
when more workers are needed, women are encouraged to work.
When a new round of automation decreases the need for human laborers, or market demand slackens, or ____ , women are laid off.
This is just ducky for their economy, but plays havoc with women's earnings, income, seniority, work history, retirement income, & more.
U can't expect to advance in a profession when Ur job is interrupted by industry-wide layoffs, & for single women or widows, they are forced to switch jobs - often to low-earning service jobs - in order to be consistently employed at all.
.
Living in Japan is not cheap, rents are high, city housing is a tight market, & space is limited.
.
women in rural areas, especially widows, are the core of a poverty underclass.
Elderly women are usually at least partly dependent on the current earnings of their son/s, & if they have no son, they'd better hope that either they get decent survivor's benefits from their husbands' retirement, or die before he does...
because if they don't have inherited wealth, their own employment is too spotty even over a lifetime to provide a comfortable old age.
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Are you serious? (I know you're not lol) Some even voted out because they wanted bent bananas:Hilarious


And did anyone see yesterday's Sun report about metric public way signs in Burnley I think it was?

Although there was no suggestion the man voted leave for that sole reason he complained saying words to the effect that due to leaving the EU they shouldn't have signs in Km!

There was also a suggestion the Labour council did this out of spite due to the area voting leave in the referendum.

Incredible! I wonder if he knows Australia and New Zealand for examples have adopted the metric system as well.

Plus the British Metrication board was established in the '60s.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> And did anyone see yesterday's Sun report about metric public way signs in Burnley I think it was?
> 
> Although there was no suggestion the man voted leave for that sole reason he complained saying words to the effect that due to leaving the EU they shouldn't have signs in Km!
> 
> There was also a suggestion the Labour council did this out of spite due to the area voting leave in the referendum.
> 
> Incredible! I wonder if he knows Australia and New Zealand for examples have adopted the metric system as well.
> 
> Plus the British Metrication board was established in the '60s.


No, I think you are the only one who reads the Sun around here


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No, I think you are the only one who reads the Sun around here


Did say it was very popular in these parts. Heaven knows why.

It's even in the barbers, and the fish and chip shop!

You didn't honestly believe I buy my own copies do you?!

I do look at these papers from time to time when they're around just to see what they're "reporting".


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Did say it was very popular in these parts. In barbers, even the fish and chip shop!
> 
> You didn't honestly believe I buy my own copies do you?!


You must get hair cuts or chips a lot


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You must get hair cuts or chips a lot


If only, not much hair left to cut and my waistline wouldn't appreciate fish and chip every day. Nor would my wallet!

Thanks though, your humour made me smile. I've made my post a little clearer.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Are labour to blame for these?
> 
> Hospitals set to close.
> 
> 
> Ealing
> 
> Alston
> Maryport
> Wigton
> Hinkley
> Rutland
> Bolsover
> Newholme
> Alderney
> Westhaven
> Ashburton
> Bovey
> Dartmouth
> Paignton


I never said labour was to blame, just mentioned that irrespective who fathers said child it takes more then the sperm to see such child prosper and grow, the labour party have certainly not been angels in that nuturing, there have been many suggestions of underhandedness attriibuted to labour,irrepective of whether they spermed the nhs of not have to hold a degree of responsibility towards its decline


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Did say it was very popular in these parts. Heaven knows why.
> 
> It's even in the barbers, and the fish and chip shop!
> 
> You didn't honestly believe I buy my own copies do you?!
> 
> I do look at these papers from time to time when they're around just to see what they're "reporting".


Of course I did - I've always had you down as a secret Sun reader


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No, I think you are the only one who reads the Sun around here


No! Untrue, I see two of them, maybe they share it


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> I never said labour was to blame, just mentioned that irrespective who fathers said child it takes more then the sperm to see such child prosper and grow, the labour party have certainly not been angels in that nuturing, there have been many suggestions of underhandedness attriibuted to labour,irrepective of whether they spermed the nhs of not have to hold a degree of responsibility towards its decline


I think Labour became very much the same like Tories and Corbyn just killed the rest.

Lots of money for" management" , lots of bureaucracy, terrible waste.
It is incredible that countries with much lower income per head can have so much lower rates of neonatal deaths and so on?

Countries that have free health care. And spend lesss per capita.


----------



## Satori

Zaros said:


> Aye, and during the run up to Christmas certain members were calling for help to fill up General Chat with a directory of random threads so that threads such as this one eventually slipped into the background.
> 
> And yet here they are prolonging its existence.


Actually, this thread was way in the background for four whole months last year. There wasn't a single post from August 3rd until December 6th.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

noushka05 said:


> Are labour to blame for these?
> 
> Hospitals set to close.
> 
> 
> Ealing
> 
> Alston
> Maryport
> Wigton
> Hinkley
> Rutland
> Bolsover
> Newholme
> Alderney
> Westhaven
> Ashburton
> Bovey
> Dartmouth
> Paignton


At least 2 of those to my knowledge are tiny community hospitals which are always under review as to their cost effectiveness and safety. The two I know of are not acute hospitals offering surgery or emergency care.



DT said:


> Anyone can father a child. But it takes someone special to nuture and care for it many of the scandals surrounding the National Health were created by the last government, I'm not going to post examples here I'll just let anyone who's interested check themselves and draw their own conclusions


Now now - it isn't popular around here to draw attention to any failures under the Labour government. Cough. Mid Staffs. Cough.

I had the misfortune to work for a very left wing borough council in Southwark in the 80's and they were ruthless. We had the ridiculous situation where professional trained/qualified staff had to ask the permission of the bin men (who were appointed to chair various sections of social services) before we could do anything. Not an experience I would ever hope to repeat.


----------



## Zaros

Satori said:


> Actually, this thread was way in the background for four whole months last year. *There wasn't a single post from August 3rd until December 6th* *when I decided to resurrect it and quote myself just to deliberately rock the leaky boat*.





Satori said:


> Yaaay. He made the shortlist. Top man,
> A national treasure our Nige'. We should feel proud.


Your Nige' , as you refer to him, is a lying 845t4rd and he lied to the world on the morning of the referendum result.
_
'The sun has risen on an independent United Kingdom' _Nigel Farage

So he really believed the country was united did he?

This thread alone proves beyond all possible doubt that it most certainly is not.:Facepalm


----------



## Satori

Zaros said:


> Your Nige' , as you refer to him, is a lying 845t4rd and he lied to the world on the morning of the referendum result.
> _
> 'The sun has risen on an independent United Kingdom' _Nigel Farage
> 
> So he really believed the country was united did he?
> 
> This thread alone proves beyond all possible doubt that it most certainly is not.:Facepalm







:Mooning


----------



## Zaros

Satori said:


>


Arrogance!

Sheer blinding arrogance!

And you expect me to communicate rationally with an individual who believes he has more of a right to this life than the next man?








​I prefer to be true to myself even at the hazard of incurring ridicule from others, rather than to be false and incur my own abhorrence.

Frederick Douglass. 1818 - 1895.


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> :Mooning


My mother used to love that programme when she had 4 kids under 10


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> My mother used to love that programme when she had 4 kids under 10


:Wideyed So it wasn't illegal for a 10 year old to bear children back then?


----------



## 1290423

Satori said:


> Actually, this thread was way in the background for four whole months last year. There wasn't a single post from August 3rd until December 6th.


Oh heck, was t that about the time I reappeared


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Satori said:


> :Mooning


I love that theme music so much, really reminds me of childhood, coming in from school and waiting for tea.


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Now now - it isn't popular around here to draw attention to any failures under the Labour government. Cough. Mid Staffs. Cough.
> 
> .


Heck! But never mind  My muvver always used to refer to my 'big foot' but then I have broard shoulders to go with that big foot so no worries


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I love that theme music so much, really reminds me of childhood, coming in from school and waiting for tea.


Was tea what you could catch


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

DT said:


> Was tea what you could catch


Tea was cucumber sandwiches (crusts removed), finger slices of battenburg and earl grey served in china cups and saucers don't you know :Smug


----------



## Honeys mum

Has any one watched After Brexit The Battle for Europe. was on BBC2 & BBC4 this week.
Recorded it and just watched it. Well worth watching,very interesting .


----------



## leashedForLife

.
gosh, & there i was, thinking PB & homemade preserves on homemade bread, with hot cocoa, was the 10th wonder of the world, after a 2-mile walk from the post-office where the school bus dropped us off, carrying our book-bags up the dirt road to our farm...
.
note that my mother worked *for* 90% of my childhood, & she didn't bake our bread as a hobby or for "artisan loaves", she baked, picked, canned, froze, & made preserves because we couldn't afford to *buy* bread [at 49-cents a loaf, on sale; 60 to 69-cents, daily], & it was CHEAPER to bake it, even with our coal range.
She wasn't baking b/c she was filling time; Martha Stewart was decades in the future.
She was filling our bellies, & saving a bit of what little she was paid.
.
take a look at what the piece rate was for clothing labels like 'Cracker Barrel' - that will give U some idea of her earnings.
.
.
.


----------



## DoodlesRule

DT said:


> Was tea what you could catch


Ours was a kick at the pantry door


----------



## Jesthar

Looks like we're not getting control of trawler fishing back either...


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

leashedForLife said:


> .
> gosh, & there i was, thinking PB & homemade preserves on homemade bread, with hot cocoa, was the 10th wonder of the world, after a 2-mile walk from the post-office where the school bus dropped us off, carrying our book-bags up the dirt road to our farm...
> .
> note that my mother worked fr 90% of my childhood, & she didn't bake our bread as a hobby or for "artisan loaves", she baked, picked, canned, froze, & made preserves because we couldn't afford to *buy* bread [at 49-cents a loaf, on sale; 60 to 69-cents, daily], & it was CHEAPER to bake it, even with our coal range.
> She wasn't baking b/c she was filling time; Martha Stewart was decades in the future.
> She was filling our bellies, & saving a bit of what little she was paid.
> .
> take a look at what the piece rate was for clothing labels like 'Cracker Barrel' - that will give U some idea of her earnings.
> .
> .
> .


I was joking - never had a cucumber sandwich or earl grey tea in my life.


----------



## samuelsmiles

leashedForLife said:


> .
> gosh, & there i was, thinking PB & homemade preserves on homemade bread, with hot cocoa, was the 10th wonder of the world, after a 2-mile walk from the post-office where the school bus dropped us off, carrying our book-bags up the dirt road to our farm...
> .
> note that my mother worked fr 90% of my childhood, & she didn't bake our bread as a hobby or for "artisan loaves", she baked, picked, canned, froze, & made preserves because we couldn't afford to *buy* bread [at 49-cents a loaf, on sale; 60 to 69-cents, daily], & it was CHEAPER to bake it, even with our coal range.
> She wasn't baking b/c she was filling time; Martha Stewart was decades in the future.
> She was filling our bellies, & saving a bit of what little she was paid.
> .
> take a look at what the piece rate was for clothing labels like 'Cracker Barrel' - that will give U some idea of her earnings.
> .
> .
> .


So, you had home baked food, were able to go to a school to be educated, had books, a bag to carry your books, hot cocoa, lovely homemade preserves, and you lived on a farm with a coal range to give you warmth and comfort?

I'm finding it difficult to feel sorry for you.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

samuelsmiles said:


> So, you had home baked food, were able to go to a school to be educated, had books, a bag to carry your books, hot cocoa, lovely homemade preserves, and you lived on a farm with a coal range to give you warmth and comfort?
> 
> I'm finding it difficult to feel sorry for you.


Well we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the road clean with our tongues.

http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/brooke-taylor-cleese-chapman-feldman-four-yorkshiremen.html


----------



## 1290423

DoodlesRule said:


> Ours was a kick at the pantry door


Oh we did that too 
Also was offer something disgusting with sugar on


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Now now - it isn't popular around here to draw attention to any failures under the Labour government. Cough. Mid Staffs. Cough.
> .


No one can deny Mid Staffs was terrible but I fail to understand how the Labour government at the time could be held responsible. It did happen when Labour were in government of course but thought that was down to poor Trust management?

I suppose the same argument could be used for the disgusting abuse the patients of Winterbourne View suffered with that happening under a Tory government?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Oh look, the pupil surpassed the master: New Leader of UKiP , and his porkies ...























I think he is practising for our next PM


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Yes scrapped - as in closed! The watered down effort now merged with the DBIS despite climate change being the biggest challenge we face. The greedy short termists don't give a [email protected] Have you not heard about DIBS plans to sell our green investment bank to an asset stripper?  http://press.labour.org.uk/post/155716728279/government-should-stop-the-sale-of-the-green Another example of how seriously they take climate change.
> 
> (have you checked out the rest of the list yet? )
> 
> I must miss loads of posts. I don't always check every single notification when I get a batch of them together lol I answered your question. If your alarm bells aren't ringing when the tories themselves are telling us what they intend to do, then god knows wha will make you realise brexit can only mean bad news. The tabloids I tend to reference are in a different league to the right wing gutter press & I explained why. I have posted that pic of the hate mongering rags with my own comment before. This time its my friend friend who posted the same pic to make the point the same thing happened with the media in Nazi Germany. You pulled me up for not responding, so I did, yet it doesn't sound as though you even bothered to read my words.


But you didn't even read my links did you. How can you be informed if you don't consider other opinions? There is real optimism that the merger could be of benefit - here are some quotes.

_"May's appointments to key BEIS positions appear to confirm this. Greg Clark, the Secretary of State, previously served as shadow DECC secretary (2008-2010) and is widely considered to be an ally of the green movement."

"Six years later, in his first statement as BEIS secretary, he (Greg Clark) highlighted 'delivering affordable, clean energy and tackling climate change' as priorities for the new department."

"The minister responsible for delivering the last of these ambitions, Nick Hurd, is also an outspoken advocate for climate change action and was earlier in 2016 named 'MP of the Year' at a green awards ceremony."
_
ps. Yes, I have been keeping a keen eye on the Green Investment Bank developments. A great initiative brought about in part by the Conservatives and something the UK can be justifiably proud of. Hopefully the right thing will be done to make it even more successful.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> No one can deny Mid Staffs was terrible but I fail to understand how the Labour government at the time could be held responsible. It did happen when Labour were in government of course but thought that was down to poor Trust management?
> 
> I suppose the same argument could be used for the disgusting abuse the patients of Winterbourne View suffered with that happening under a Tory government?


Not quite the same thing (see below) . Although the abuse came to light after the Panorama programme in May 2011 it had clearly been going on for some time. The Coalition came into power in 2010 (not strictly a Tory government) but I'm not sure how much of the problem occurred on their watch and how much on the previous Labour government's watch.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ata/file/213216/easy-read-of-final-report.pdf

The 11 members of staff who abused patients at Winterbourne View have been sentenced for the criminal acts.

Winterbourne View hospital was a private hospital. It was owned by Castlebeck Care Limited. It was opened in December 2006. The hospital was registered to provide assessment and treatment and rehabilitation for people with learning disabilities. The hospital had enough beds for 24 patients with learning disabilities.

South Gloucestershire Council were told about safeguarding issues in Winterbourne View but failed to identify a trend in the number of times they were contacted.

The Care Quality Commission Before the Panorama programme showed on television, a whistleblower told the Care Quality Commission that he was worried about the way patients at Winterbourne View were being treated. The Care Quality Commission failed to respond to the concerns raised by the whistleblower.

The Mental Health Act Commission were told about incidents at Winterbourne View and said there was a need to improve but did not follow up to make sure improvements had happened.

29 incidents were reported to the police. 8 of the reported incidents concerned staff using physical restraint on patients. The police didn't follow up the incidents because they believed the reasons given by staff at Winterbourne View. Before the Panorama programme, the police successfully prosecuted one of the members of staff at Winterbourne View.

Which whilst totally unacceptable and disgusting is not quite in the same league as

A disputed estimate [see footnote] suggested that *between 400 and 1,200 patients died* as a result of poor care over the 50 months between January 2005 and March 2009 at Stafford hospital, a small district general hospital in Staffordshire. The report being published on 6 February 2013 of the public inquiry chaired by Robert Francis QC will be the fifth official report into the scandal since 2009, and Francis's second into the hospital's failings.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> I'm pretty sure you were championing these crooks before the general election
> 
> If you want to be informed you really need to hear what the doctors & NHS professionals are saying SWC.
> 
> Have you heard about the secret plan to cut almost 8,000 NHS jobs & slash services in NW London?
> 
> View attachment 300587
> 
> View attachment 300588


Alarming stuff if true, Noushka.

I'm having difficulty in finding evidence to corroborate these claims though - have you got better links please?


----------



## kimthecat

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Well we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the road clean with our tongues.
> 
> http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/brooke-taylor-cleese-chapman-feldman-four-yorkshiremen.html


:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

samuelsmiles said:


> Alarming stuff if true, Noushka.
> 
> I'm having difficulty in finding evidence to corroborate these claims though - have you got better links please?


Noush said have you heard of a secret plan ? if we've heard a secret plan, then its not a secret 
but certainly a cunning plan !

Scary though !

ETA I have had very good treatment at Northwick park . I have been going there for over 20 years for RA and they have a lovely RA centre. Ive also had scans and biopsies for various things and have been seen with in a short time or with in the recommend time.
A few weeks ago , the RA consultant recommended an xray and he put it on his computer and told ne to go to the xray department , book in and only waited 5 mins for xray . They had to treat me for shock  ( no not really )

I know the situation with the NHS is dire but I want to give credit where its due .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> ETA I have had very good treatment at Northwick park . I have been going there for over 20 years for RA and they have a lovely RA centre. Ive also had scans and biopsies for various things and have been seen with in a short time or with in the recommend time.
> A few weeks ago , the RA consultant recommended an xray and he put it on his computer and told ne to go to the xray department , book in and only waited 5 mins for xray . They had to treat me for shock  ( no not really )
> 
> I know the situation with the NHS is dire but I want to give credit where its due .


I've not really heard of anyone having problems (the odd niggle here and there) unless they need a bed or they go to A&E on a Friday or Saturday night when the space is taken by stupid aggressive drunks

It seems very efficient most of the time


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Noush said have you heard of a secret plan ? if we've heard a secret plan, then its not a secret
> but certainly a cunning plan !


:Hilarious


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, kimthecat:

Noush said have you heard of a secret plan ? if we've heard a secret plan, then its not a secret 
but certainly *a cunning plan !*
...

QUOTE
.
.
_"Black Adder, Black Adder..."_
_._
_._
_._


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> Noush said have you heard of a secret plan ? if we've heard a secret plan, then its not a secret
> but certainly a cunning plan !
> 
> Scary though !
> 
> ETA I have had very good treatment at Northwick park . I have been going there for over 20 years for RA and they have a lovely RA centre. Ive also had scans and biopsies for various things and have been seen with in a short time or with in the recommend time.
> A few weeks ago , the RA consultant recommended an xray and he put it on his computer and told ne to go to the xray department , book in and only waited 5 mins for xray . They had to treat me for shock  ( no not really )
> 
> I know the situation with the NHS is dire but I want to give credit where its due .


Same here with the X-ray, doctor gave me a form and told me to ring the hospital, thought it would be weeks ahead, but they offered me a selection of appointment including the same day.
But that said we have practically lost our hospital, due to bad management I add by sherwood trusts, our MP, Robert Jenrick, a conservative MP is always actively fighting for it.
Don't have anything good to say about our doctors surgery, damd hard work trying to get an


----------



## cheekyscrip

Another bank moving because of Brexit.
This time to Berlin.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Another bank moving because of Brexit.
> This time to Berlin.
> View attachment 300656


@cheekyscrip
If you read the article they aren't moving they are talking about using there subsidery branch in Berlin to operate there European business, they are not moving there. The article then goes onto say that only a few jobs will leave London. They are talking about having a separate division of Lloyd's Bank in Berlin for European Business Customers.

Also I just wanted to add the UK tax payers still own part of Lloyd's Bank through Government shares from when they got bailed out during the Banking Crisis. They wouldn't be allowed to leave the UK totally without permission from the Government who still own a stake in Lloyd's with tax payers money.

*Government's Lloyds share sale takes stake to below 7%*
Taxpayers have now recovered more than £17.5bn of the £20.3bn injected into the bank during the 2008 financial crisis.


> While the government is selling off its stake in Lloyds, it retains a 73% stake in Royal Bank of Scotland which it also bailed out during the financial crisis.


The Government owns 73% stakes in Royal Bank of Scotland as well which includes NatWest, Ulster Bank and Coutts.

http://theguardian.com/business/201...ds-share-sale-bank?client=ms-android-motorola


----------



## cheekyscrip

No one says all of it. But it will obviously move EU operations. So will the others.

Problem is : Once they start shifting...
Imagine even 10% loss of corporate tax...plus individual taxes, rents, then secondary effects...down to the lady with coffee van...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> No one says all of it. But it will obviously move EU operations. So will the others.
> 
> Problem is : Once they start shifting...


Lloyd's can't though. The Government would have to give them permission to do so as the Government has shares in it and as a share holder has to be consulted first.

It's all scaremongering at the moment because we haven't even entered negotiations yet.

EU leaders were told by the Irish PM today that if the EU leaders treat the UK hard it will be the EU that suffers in the long run. Some EU countries have said today they are exploring options to have separate deals with the UK and looking at going against what Junker has said. So the EU isn't as united as Junker had hoped it would be.


----------



## Jonescat

Don't they have to have a European subsidy in order to maintain the ability to trade in Europe?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> ETA I have had very good treatment at Northwick park .  I have been going there for over 20 years for RA and they have a lovely RA centre. Ive also had scans and biopsies for various things and have been seen with in a short time or with in the recommend time.
> A few weeks ago , the RA consultant recommended an xray and he put it on his computer and told ne to go to the xray department , book in and only waited 5 mins for xray . They had to treat me for shock  ( no not really )
> 
> I know the situation with the NHS is dire but I want to give credit where its due .


Here if you if your are being seen by a consultant and they require a scan or x-ray while attending an out patient appointment, they give the patient a card to take to relevant department and they are dealt with very quickly. The patient then goes back in to see the consultant who will have had results up on screen. All very efficient. If your GP wishes for you to have x-ray or scan then you can either go to main hospital and wait in the GP referral x-ray department or await an appointment at local hospital which usually comes within a week. However the results don`t get back to GP for some time, at the moment there is something of a back log and results may take several weeks before being reported back to GP.

I don`t think getting tests or even awaiting results are to much of a problem (here at least) but waiting for treatment, especially if it means a hospital bed is needed, is, The last time I had the misfortune to have to attend A&E I stood beside my relative, who had suffered a heart attack but was conscious and stable, for a number of hours in a corridor with several other patients and their relatives ( and ambulance crews who had brought the patents in ) I was shocked how busy it was, it was a normal midweek afternoon. Most brought in seemed to been in RTAs or workplace accidents.


----------



## DoodlesRule

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh look, the pupil surpassed the master: New Leader of UKiP , and his porkies ...
> View attachment 300631
> View attachment 300632
> View attachment 300633
> 
> 
> I think he is practising for our next PM


He won't get in for two reasons - Stoke Central would vote for a cardboard cutout as long as it had a Labour Rosette and they aren't very keen on scousers!


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Which whilst totally unacceptable and disgusting is not quite in the same league as
> 
> A disputed estimate [see footnote] suggested that *between 400 and 1,200 patients died* as a result of poor care over the 50 months between January 2005 and March 2009 at Stafford hospital, a small district general hospital in Staffordshire. The report being published on 6 February 2013 of the public inquiry chaired by Robert Francis QC will be the fifth official report into the scandal since 2009, and Francis's second into the hospital's failings.


I don't dispute what you say at all.

What I was saying is I fail to understand why the Labour government at the time were blamed for the appalling conditions and management at Mid Staffs.

They are many excellent NHS trusts during Labour's term and today, especially where we are, not that you hear anything about them in the National media. Probably because they are too good, remembering we only get to hear bad things happening.

When the Winterbourne View scandal was exposed I didn't immediately think of the government but the scum of the earth carrying out the abuse and for how it had been going on.

Thank god, like Mid Staffs, something was done about it.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> But you didn't even read my links did you. How can you be informed if you don't consider other opinions? There is real optimism that the merger could be of benefit - here are some quotes.
> 
> _"May's appointments to key BEIS positions appear to confirm this. Greg Clark, the Secretary of State, previously served as shadow DECC secretary (2008-2010) and is widely considered to be an ally of the green movement."
> 
> "Six years later, in his first statement as BEIS secretary, he (Greg Clark) highlighted 'delivering affordable, clean energy and tackling climate change' as priorities for the new department."
> 
> "The minister responsible for delivering the last of these ambitions, Nick Hurd, is also an outspoken advocate for climate change action and was earlier in 2016 named 'MP of the Year' at a green awards ceremony."
> _
> ps. Yes, I have been keeping a keen eye on the Green Investment Bank developments. A great initiative brought about in part by the Conservatives and something the UK can be justifiably proud of. Hopefully the right thing will be done to make it even more successful.


Wow, how rude. And you even posted it twice I did read the links actually. I'm well aware of the history of the GIB. Are you aware the tories have been trying to sell it off for years but backed down? - unlikely this time! Environmentalist warned this hard right government would be disastrous when it came to tackling climate change & protecting our environment. And they were rightly concerned about the govts commitment when they closed the DECC because here we are today! - the GIB to be flogged off an asset stripping, environmental vandal nicknamed the vampire kangaroo . Here are few links for you to read & a petition if you care to sign it - https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/green-bank-petition
#
http://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2016/10/19/green-investment-bank-buyer-backs-fracking-coal/

http://lowcarbonkid.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/the-uks-green-investment-bank-should-be.html

Poignant words of George Monboit - in response to this -

Sea ice around Antarctica hits an all time record low - http://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer








*GeorgeMonbiot* ‏

_"And thus it goes, the Holocene window closing creak by creak, while most of the world looks the other way_."









http://www.afr.com/business/banking...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer



stockwellcat said:


> Noush no one is saying the NHS isn't in crisis, we know it is. But the question is how do we resolve it? Labours bouncing NHS cheques or Conservative cuts?
> 
> The NHS is still on top of the crisis one of the best performing FREE services available in Europe.


Why don't you find out how by checking out what experts are saying?



KittenKong said:


> And did anyone see yesterday's Sun report about metric public way signs in Burnley I think it was?
> 
> Although there was no suggestion the man voted leave for that sole reason he complained saying words to the effect that due to leaving the EU they shouldn't have signs in Km!
> 
> There was also a suggestion the Labour council did this out of spite due to the area voting leave in the referendum.
> 
> Incredible! I wonder if he knows Australia and New Zealand for examples have adopted the metric system as well.
> 
> Plus the British Metrication board was established in the '60s.





DT said:


> I never said labour was to blame, just mentioned that irrespective who fathers said child it takes more then the sperm to see such child prosper and grow, the labour party have certainly not been angels in that nuturing, there have been many suggestions of underhandedness attriibuted to labour,irrepective of whether they spermed the nhs of not have to hold a degree of responsibility towards its decline


The biggest mistake labour made was adopting John Majors PFIs. Corbyn has apologised on labours behalf, pledged to renationalise our NHS & cancel PFIs. The tories are in power now, Sue. They are the only ones with the power to save our NHS. They wont, because they want it to fail. The NHS is everything they hate, its totally at odds with their ideology.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> At least 2 of those to my knowledge are tiny community hospitals which are always under review as to their cost effectiveness and safety. The two I know of are not acute hospitals offering surgery or emergency care.
> 
> Now now - it isn't popular around here to draw attention to any failures under the Labour government. Cough. Mid Staffs. Cough.
> 
> I had the misfortune to work for a very left wing borough council in Southwark in the 80's and they were ruthless. We had the ridiculous situation where professional trained/qualified staff had to ask the permission of the bin men (who were appointed to chair various sections of social services) before we could do anything. Not an experience I would ever hope to repeat.


Wasn't the Mid Staffs crisis the result of a lack of staffing, RPH? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/06/staff-shortages-are-threatening-the-nhs

The recruitment crisis shows just how badly the government is managing the NHS (Report, 4 February). The proportion of doctors joining specialist training in the UK- including general practice - has fallen for the fifth year running, with just over 50% of doctors who completed the foundation programme going on to enter British specialist training - compared with 71% in 2011, according to the figures from the UK Foundation Programme Office.

GP recruitment has slumped by 20% and a recent report by the National Audit Office warned that poor access to GPs during the working day could be fuelling Britain's A&E crisis. It said that rising numbers of patients are being forced to wait a month to see a family doctor, with estimates of a shortage of up to 10,000 GPs by 2020.

Almost every hospital in the UK has a shortage of nurses, but the government has confirmed plans to end bursaries for student nurses and midwives from next year. At the same time the number of nurses from Europe registering to work here since the Brexit referendum has fallen by 90%. Janet Davies, chief executive of the Royal College of Nursing, said: "If this is the beginning of a long-term drop in the number of nurses coming to the UK from other parts of the EU, that's a serious concern at a time when we're already facing a crisis in nurse staffing numbers. With 24,000 nursing vacancies across the UK, the NHS could not cope without the contribution from EU nurses. Without a guarantee that EU nationals working in the NHS can remain, it will be much harder to retain and recruit staff from the EU."

Without staff the NHS cannot function effectively and the march towards privatisation will become unstoppable.
*Dr Richard Turner

*
-

57 year old woman died after three hospitals refused to admit her for surgery - https://www.theguardian.com/society...ee-hospitals-refused-to-admit-her-for-surgery



Zaros said:


> Aye, and during the run up to Christmas certain members were calling for help to fill up General Chat with a directory of random threads so that threads such as this one eventually slipped into the background.
> 
> And yet here they are prolonging its existence.
> 
> People realise something has gone catastrophically wrong with the idea of government and that government has drifted so far from its purpose of serving the people as a whole and, because of this, they also realise that they have nothing left but the choice of a lesser conceived evil.
> 
> I think what you do is to be highly commended Noush' If only there were more sentinels/Gate watchers.
> 
> However, have you ever thought you were wasting your energies?
> 
> Being a lighthouse for the flotilla of ships that carelessly sail the waters of this life, all the while failing to acknowledge your guiding light and, thus, dismissing the treacherous sand banks and rocks about them, must, more often than not, bring you to the decision to simply turn out your warning beacon and let them to their own fate.


Blimey, I didn't know about that. What an odd thing to do, especially if they're still actually posting on the thread they're trying to sink. Very strange indeed:Wideyed

Thank you for this lovely post & making me see sense Zaros x. From now on unless I hear something huge, I'm going to try to only respond if I'm quoted. Its pointless bothering, isn't it.

'Sentinels & Gate watchers':Shamefullyembarrased. I'm only normally used to insults I've accumulated a list as long as my arm of names I've been called on social media for giving a **** about things. I get bunny hugger, lefty, bleeding heart liberal, libtard, leftard - snowflake is the common one at the moment. And often I'll have a look on their profiles to find many of them are 'Christians' The hypocrisy of these so called Christians is staggering. They are absolutely hateful.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Alarming stuff if true, Noushka.
> 
> I'm having difficulty in finding evidence to corroborate these claims though - have you got better links please?


No I don't have better links. That info is being shared by doctors on social media - you know, the people we trust with our lives 



kimthecat said:


> Noush said have you heard of a secret plan ? if we've heard a secret plan, then its not a secret
> but certainly a cunning plan !
> 
> Scary though !
> 
> ETA I have had very good treatment at Northwick park . I have been going there for over 20 years for RA and they have a lovely RA centre. Ive also had scans and biopsies for various things and have been seen with in a short time or with in the recommend time.
> A few weeks ago , the RA consultant recommended an xray and he put it on his computer and told ne to go to the xray department , book in and only waited 5 mins for xray . They had to treat me for shock  ( no not really )
> 
> I know the situation with the NHS is dire but I want to give credit where its due .


The info was only obtained through a Freedom of Information request. And they weren't my words either.

All the credit goes to the staff. The government are remodelling our NHS on the dreadful US health service. It will affect all NHS trusts soon.

Scandal after scandal

How £18m of taxpayers money was spent on private consultants to plan NHS cuts.

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news...rivate-consultants-save-health-service-money/


----------



## noushka05

One more thing. I know @rona & I both agree Miles King is an expert in his field. Brexit is definitely going to be bad news for our environment. How anyone could ever have been in doubt with this government at the helm is beyond me though.

*Miles King* ‏@*MilesKing10* Feb 14

*Environmental protections definitely will be eroded by Brexit. There's no "could" about it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38959996










*


----------



## Jesthar

Ahh, Macquarie. The company I work for got bought by them a few years ago. They are far worse than even their reputation.


----------



## noushka05

And this is BRILLIANT! Anyone who believes we can leave the EU on WATO terms really needs to read this >>>

http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/the-myth-of-wto-option.html?spref=tw


----------



## noushka05

Jesthar said:


> Ahh, Macquarie. The company I work for got bought by them a few years ago. They are far worse than even their reputation.


Blimey. And their reputation is dire.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Wow, how rude. And you even posted it twice I did read the links actually. I'm well aware of the history of the GIB. Are you aware the tories have been trying to sell it off for years but backed down? - unlikely this time! Environmentalist warned this hard right government would be disastrous when it came to tackling climate change & protecting our environment. And they were rightly concerned about the govts commitment when they closed the DECC because here we are today! - the GIB to be flogged off an asset stripping, environmental vandal nicknamed the vampire kangaroo . Here are few links for you to read & a petition if you care to sign it - https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/green-bank-petition
> #
> http://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2016/10/19/green-investment-bank-buyer-backs-fracking-coal/
> 
> http://lowcarbonkid.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/the-uks-green-investment-bank-should-be.html
> 
> Poignant words of George Monboit - in response to this -
> 
> Sea ice around Antarctica hits an all time record low - http://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *GeorgeMonbiot* ‏
> 
> _"And thus it goes, the Holocene window closing creak by creak, while most of the world looks the other way_."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.afr.com/business/banking...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
> 
> Why don't you find out how by checking out what experts are saying?
> 
> The biggest mistake labour made was adopting John Majors PFIs. Corbyn has apologised on labours behalf, pledged to renationalise our NHS & cancel PFIs. The tories are in power now, Sue. They are the only ones with the power to save our NHS. They wont, because they want it to fail. The NHS is everything they hate, its totally at odds with their ideology.
> 
> Wasn't the Mid Staffs crisis the result of a lack of staffing, RPH? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/06/staff-shortages-are-threatening-the-nhs
> 
> The recruitment crisis shows just how badly the government is managing the NHS (Report, 4 February). The proportion of doctors joining specialist training in the UK- including general practice - has fallen for the fifth year running, with just over 50% of doctors who completed the foundation programme going on to enter British specialist training - compared with 71% in 2011, according to the figures from the UK Foundation Programme Office.
> 
> GP recruitment has slumped by 20% and a recent report by the National Audit Office warned that poor access to GPs during the working day could be fuelling Britain's A&E crisis. It said that rising numbers of patients are being forced to wait a month to see a family doctor, with estimates of a shortage of up to 10,000 GPs by 2020.
> 
> Almost every hospital in the UK has a shortage of nurses, but the government has confirmed plans to end bursaries for student nurses and midwives from next year. At the same time the number of nurses from Europe registering to work here since the Brexit referendum has fallen by 90%. Janet Davies, chief executive of the Royal College of Nursing, said: "If this is the beginning of a long-term drop in the number of nurses coming to the UK from other parts of the EU, that's a serious concern at a time when we're already facing a crisis in nurse staffing numbers. With 24,000 nursing vacancies across the UK, the NHS could not cope without the contribution from EU nurses. Without a guarantee that EU nationals working in the NHS can remain, it will be much harder to retain and recruit staff from the EU."
> 
> Without staff the NHS cannot function effectively and the march towards privatisation will become unstoppable.
> *Dr Richard Turner
> 
> *
> -
> 
> 57 year old woman died after three hospitals refused to admit her for surgery - https://www.theguardian.com/society...ee-hospitals-refused-to-admit-her-for-surgery
> 
> Blimey, I didn't know about that. What an odd thing to do, especially if they're still actually posting on the thread they're trying to sink. Very strange indeed:Wideyed
> 
> Thank you for this lovely post & making me see sense Zaros x. From now on unless I hear something huge, I'm going to try to only respond if I'm quoted. Its pointless bothering, isn't it.
> 
> 'Sentinels & Gate watchers':Shamefullyembarrased. I'm only normally used to insults I've accumulated a list as long as my arm of names I've been called on social media for giving a **** about things. I get bunny hugger, lefty, bleeding heart liberal, libtard, leftard - snowflake is the common one at the moment. And often I'll have a look on their profiles to find many of them are 'Christians' The hypocrisy of these so called Christians is staggering. They are absolutely hateful.


Call blimey noush bet youve worn your keyboard out lol xxxxxxxx


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> The info was only obtained through a Freedom of Information request. And they weren't my words either.


 I was teasing 

I was worried about Ealing hospital closure , I don't think its the whole hospital closing though any part closure isn't good.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> *Wow, how rude*. And you even posted it twice I did read the links actually. I'm well aware of the history of the GIB. Are you aware the tories have been trying to sell it off for years but backed down? - unlikely this time! Environmentalist warned this hard right government would be disastrous when it came to tackling climate change & protecting our environment. And they were rightly concerned about the govts commitment when they closed the DECC because here we are today! - the GIB to be flogged off an asset stripping, environmental vandal nicknamed the vampire kangaroo . Here are few links for you to read & a petition if you care to sign it - https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/green-bank-petition
> #
> http://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2016/10/19/green-investment-bank-buyer-backs-fracking-coal/
> 
> http://lowcarbonkid.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/the-uks-green-investment-bank-should-be.html
> 
> Poignant words of George Monboit - in response to this -
> 
> Sea ice around Antarctica hits an all time record low - http://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *GeorgeMonbiot* ‏
> 
> _"And thus it goes, the Holocene window closing creak by creak, while most of the world looks the other way_."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.afr.com/business/banking...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
> 
> Why don't you find out how by checking out what experts are saying?
> 
> The biggest mistake labour made was adopting John Majors PFIs. Corbyn has apologised on labours behalf, pledged to renationalise our NHS & cancel PFIs. The tories are in power now, Sue. They are the only ones with the power to save our NHS. They wont, because they want it to fail. The NHS is everything they hate, its totally at odds with their ideology.
> 
> Wasn't the Mid Staffs crisis the result of a lack of staffing, RPH? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/06/staff-shortages-are-threatening-the-nhs
> 
> The recruitment crisis shows just how badly the government is managing the NHS (Report, 4 February). The proportion of doctors joining specialist training in the UK- including general practice - has fallen for the fifth year running, with just over 50% of doctors who completed the foundation programme going on to enter British specialist training - compared with 71% in 2011, according to the figures from the UK Foundation Programme Office.
> 
> GP recruitment has slumped by 20% and a recent report by the National Audit Office warned that poor access to GPs during the working day could be fuelling Britain's A&E crisis. It said that rising numbers of patients are being forced to wait a month to see a family doctor, with estimates of a shortage of up to 10,000 GPs by 2020.
> 
> Almost every hospital in the UK has a shortage of nurses, but the government has confirmed plans to end bursaries for student nurses and midwives from next year. At the same time the number of nurses from Europe registering to work here since the Brexit referendum has fallen by 90%. Janet Davies, chief executive of the Royal College of Nursing, said: "If this is the beginning of a long-term drop in the number of nurses coming to the UK from other parts of the EU, that's a serious concern at a time when we're already facing a crisis in nurse staffing numbers. With 24,000 nursing vacancies across the UK, the NHS could not cope without the contribution from EU nurses. Without a guarantee that EU nationals working in the NHS can remain, it will be much harder to retain and recruit staff from the EU."
> 
> Without staff the NHS cannot function effectively and the march towards privatisation will become unstoppable.
> *Dr Richard Turner
> 
> *
> -
> 
> 57 year old woman died after three hospitals refused to admit her for surgery - https://www.theguardian.com/society...ee-hospitals-refused-to-admit-her-for-surgery
> 
> Blimey, I didn't know about that. What an odd thing to do, especially if they're still actually posting on the thread they're trying to sink. Very strange indeed:Wideyed
> 
> Thank you for this lovely post & making me see sense Zaros x. From now on unless I hear something huge, I'm going to try to only respond if I'm quoted. Its pointless bothering, isn't it.
> 
> 'Sentinels & Gate watchers':Shamefullyembarrased. I'm only normally used to insults I've accumulated a list as long as my arm of names I've been called on social media for giving a **** about things. I get bunny hugger, lefty, bleeding heart liberal, libtard, leftard - snowflake is the common one at the moment. And often I'll have a look on their profiles to find many of them are 'Christians' The hypocrisy of these so called Christians is staggering. They are absolutely hateful.


"How rude"? Well, how ironic. 

This was your response to the reasoned post I made with a couple of well informed articles that you made no reference to at the time.

_"Yes scrapped - as in closed! The watered down effort now merged with the DBIS despite climate change being the biggest challenge we face. The greedy short termists don't give a [email protected] Have you not heard about DIBS plans to sell our green investment bank to an asset stripper?  http://press.labour.org.uk/post/155716728279/government-should-stop-the-sale-of-the-green Another example of how seriously they take climate change."
_
Rolling eyes and mad emogis (or whatever they are called) with a bit of swearing and a whole heap of left wing rage. How polite of you._ 
_
How rude? Oh, please - lay off the victim stuff_. _


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Call blimey noush bet youve worn your keyboard out lol xxxxxxxx


and my mind xx



kimthecat said:


> I was teasing
> 
> I was worried about Ealing hospital closure , I don't think its the whole hospital closing though any part closure isn't good.


Sorry if I came across a bit touchy. The tories are downgrading services & closing hospitals right across the country - they are stealing OUR NHS.










*(*being shared by drs)
*Can't reconcile these 2 news items: 
- Risk of patient deaths due to too few hosp beds

- 19 hospitals to be closed*











samuelsmiles said:


> "How rude"? Well, how ironic.
> 
> This was your response to the reasoned post I made with a couple of well informed articles that you made no reference to at the time.
> 
> _"Yes scrapped - as in closed! The watered down effort now merged with the DBIS despite climate change being the biggest challenge we face. The greedy short termists don't give a [email protected] Have you not heard about DIBS plans to sell our green investment bank to an asset stripper?  http://press.labour.org.uk/post/155716728279/government-should-stop-the-sale-of-the-green Another example of how seriously they take climate change."
> _
> Rolling eyes and mad emogis (or whatever they are called) with a bit of swearing and a whole heap of left wing rage. How polite of you._
> _
> How rude? Oh, please - lay off the victim stuff_. _


Angry & appalled at the government - not you. As someone who care's about climate change, I'd have thought you'd feel the same??


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Its pointless bothering, isn't it.


Someone has to make the effort Noush'

Problem is, there's far too many who are all too readily prepared to gamble tomorrow to live for today, because let's face it, tomorrow's not really a promise or a guarantee is it.
So, just like spoiled and impatient kids driven by selfishness and greed, they'll have theirs now.



noushka05 said:


> I'm only normally used to insults.


You and me both Noush' I believe it's called having influence. :Smug

Thanks to Pet Forums, I now get it from both sides of the Atlantic.:Cigar

Long Live The Anglo American Allegiance! :Hilarious


----------



## rona

Zaros said:


> Problem is, there's far too many who are all too readily prepared to gamble tomorrow to live for today, because let's face it, tomorrow's not really a promise or a guarantee is it.


I've gambled my today for a better tomorrow for others. Go figure..................


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> I've gambled my today for a better tomorrow for others. Go figure..................


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38993912


----------



## Guest

I've read some of the posts, but not all, way too many... I didn´t notice any comments about how other EU-people are thinking of Brexit and the terms we wish Britain should have. If some one already mentioned this and this is all old news, just skip it.

Now we have started to receive "letters" from British polititians telling how much they appeciate doing business with us, how well we have always got on etc. I´m sure most EU-nations got similar letters. My point is that on PF many seem to believe that it´s up to Britain to decide how you want to have business with us, in real life it´s not. We want EU countries to get the best deal, naturally, and the main message is that no way Britain will be able to have business deals as usual without free travelling and moving from one EU country to another.

What we believe will happen is that British politicians will "sell" British people a deal that is not nearly as good as before, but make it look like a real achievement. The devil lies in details, and there will be lots of them.

Maybe it will be a good idea to read newspapers from other countries to get a more realistic view of what the rest of Europe is thinking about Brexit. Only nazi-parties support that, the same ones which support Trump.


----------



## kimthecat

[/QUOTE]

What ! I thought it was Friday today .


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


>


What ! I thought it was Friday today . [/QUOTE]

CHRIST'S SAKE!
SLOW DOWN WOMAN.
YOU'RE GONNA KILL US ALL!








​


----------



## rona

MrsZee said:


> Maybe it will be a good idea to read newspapers from other countries to get a more realistic view of what the rest of Europe is thinking about Brexit. Only nazi-parties support that, the same ones which support Trump.


I have and they don't, just the ones you read


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> I have and they don't, just the ones you read


For some reason I totally agree with that. We do have different sources of information and the ones I read all tell the same thing. No special deals, but welcoming you back if you change your mind. Though maybe with less favourable conditions. But that is another story


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I've gambled my today for a better tomorrow for others. Go figure..................


My kids will never thank you for gambling away their future. They don't want to live in an insular, toxic dump of a country. They love the opportunities & the protection the EU gives them. Brexit will affect the younger generation the most.

This tickled me.











MrsZee said:


> I've read some of the posts, but not all, way too many... I didn´t notice any comments about how other EU-people are thinking of Brexit and the terms we wish Britain should have. If some one already mentioned this and this is all old news, just skip it.
> 
> Now we have started to receive "letters" from British polititians telling how much they appeciate doing business with us, how well we have always got on etc. I´m sure most EU-nations got similar letters. My point is that on PF many seem to believe that it´s up to Britain to decide how you want to have business with us, in real life it´s not. We want EU countries to get the best deal, naturally, and the main message is that no way Britain will be able to have business deals as usual without free travelling and moving from one EU country to another.
> 
> What we believe will happen is that British politicians will "sell" British people a deal that is not nearly as good as before, but make it look like a real achievement. The devil lies in details, and there will be lots of them.
> 
> Maybe it will be a good idea to read newspapers from other countries to get a more realistic view of what the rest of Europe is thinking about Brexit. Only nazi-parties support that, the same ones which support Trump.


What a great post, thank you for sharing this dose of reality, Mrs Zee. (& its great to see you back posting, I've missed seeing you around the place xx)

I like to look at what they're saying in other countries about us.

This excellent article in the New York Times caught my eye yesterday. About how Brexit is rooted in imperial nostalgia & how May's Little England will be an isolated one party state.

*Theresa May's Empire of the Mind*
*
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/opinion/theresa-mays-empire-of-the-mind.html








*


----------



## stockwellcat.

So Tony Blair is launching a campaign to change the minds of those that voted leave. He announced this at Open Britain today.

So the remain campaigners can now do this (mind melding) to change vote leavers minds:








Spoke goes "You will vote remain in a second Referendum" to a vote leave supporter.

This man doesn't know like Nick Clegg and the rest of the remoaners when to stop.


----------



## Bisbow

My grandchildren have been raised to be optimistic about the future, to think for themselves and grasp every opportunity as it arises, as they are doing
Not sit back and have crumbs handed to them on a silver salver by our masters in the EU and expecting us to go down on our knees to thank them


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 300823
> 
> So Tony Blair is launching a campaign to change the minds of those that voted leave. He announced this at Open Britain today.
> 
> So the remain campaigners can now use mind reversing technology to get people to change there minds, this is what it sounds like.
> 
> This man doesn't know like Nick Clegg and the rest of the remoaners when to stop.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> My grandchildren have been raised to be optimistic about the future, to think for themselves and grasp every opportunity as it arises, as they are doing
> Not sit back and have crumbs handed to them on a silver salver by our masters in the EU and expecting us to go down on our knees to thank them


My children are critical thinkers. They evaluated the evidence. They could see how much we stand to lose out of the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


It's not advisory now. It has widely been accepted across the world the UK is leaving the EU and even MP's have accepted it. It was also said by Cameron during the Referendum that the results would be respected and accepted whatever the outcome.

Old ground again. Let's skip around in circles at Noush.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Haha Tony Blair's speech went down well. Not.

*Tony Blair accused of 'arrogance' over call to 'rise up' against Brexit*

*Tony Blair has been accused of "insulting the intelligence" of voters and "arrogance" *after he urged opponents of Brexit to "rise up" against leaving the EU.

The former prime minister said voters backed severing ties with Brussels without knowing the true cost and should have the chance to change their minds.

In a keynote speech in London, Mr Blair questioned whether the referendum had given a mandate for "Brexit at any cost".

But his intervention has drawn the ire of Brexit supporters, with Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson accusing Mr Blair of "insulting the intelligence" of those who voted to leave.

He said: "I respectfully say to Tony Blair, those who call the British people to rise up against Brexit, I urge the British people to rise up and turn off the TV the next time Blair comes on with his condescending campaign."

Former Cabinet minister Iain Duncan Smith told Sky News Mr Blair "seems to have forgotten what democracy is about" and accused him of "arrogance".

In an impassioned speech, Mr Blair rejected the idea that leaving was now "inevitable", adding: "I accept right now there is no widespread appetite to re-think.

"But the people voted without knowledge of the true terms of Brexit. As these terms become clear, it is their right to change their mind. Our mission is to persuade them to do so.

"I don't know if we can succeed. But I do know we will suffer a rancorous verdict from future generations if we do not try.

In a keynote speech in London, Mr Blair questioned whether the referendum had given a mandate for "Brexit at any cost".

But his intervention has drawn the ire of Brexit supporters, with Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson accusing Mr Blair of "insulting the intelligence" of those who voted to leave.

http://news.sky.com/story/tony-blai...-he-denies-responsibility-for-brexit-10771251


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> needed no one to influence me what-so-ever


@stockwellcat: nor did I. As for Blair, I reckon he no doubt had his eye on a job in Brussels so obviously hopes to keep us there...he is just the sort to have his snout in the trough! :Vomit


----------



## Happy Paws2

I agree whith him whole heartedly, I think it's a shame he's left it so late.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Can't wait for the UK to








In 2019.


----------



## Zaros

Calvine said:


> @stockwellcat: nor did I. As for Blair, I reckon he no doubt had his eye on a job in Brussels so obviously hopes to keep us there...he is just the sort to have his snout in the trough! :Vomit


Peace envoy and philanthropist!

Really?

Blair doesn't care! He's just out to make money any way he can and would no doubt sell his own Grandmother if it ever came down to saving his own slippery skin.

Phuqin' little maggot is playing everybody.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Zaros said:


> Peace envoy and philanthropist!
> 
> Really?
> 
> Blair doesn't care! He's just out to make money any way he can and would no doubt sell his own Grandmother if it ever came down to saving his own slippery skin.
> 
> Phuqin' little maggot is playing everybody.


Couldn't agree more.

I am positive he will change minds though .................................... Remain voters to Leave that is!


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 300823
> 
> So Tony Blair is launching a campaign to change the minds of those that voted leave. He announced this at Open Britain today.
> 
> So the remain campaigners can now do this (mind melding) to change vote leavers minds:
> View attachment 300833
> 
> Spoke goes "You will vote remain in a second Referendum" to a vote leave supporter.
> 
> This man doesn't know like Nick Clegg and the rest of the remoaners when to stop.


Toxic tony! The biggest liar out there. Even his own dont like him


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

stockwellcat said:


> Haha Tony Blair's speech went down well. Not.
> 
> *Tony Blair accused of 'arrogance' over call to 'rise up' against Brexit*
> 
> *Tony Blair has been accused of "insulting the intelligence" of voters and "arrogance" *after he urged opponents of Brexit to "rise up" against leaving the EU.
> 
> The former prime minister said voters backed severing ties with Brussels without knowing the true cost and should have the chance to change their minds.
> 
> In a keynote speech in London, Mr Blair questioned whether the referendum had given a mandate for "Brexit at any cost".
> 
> But his intervention has drawn the ire of Brexit supporters, with Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson accusing Mr Blair of "insulting the intelligence" of those who voted to leave.
> 
> He said: "I respectfully say to Tony Blair, those who call the British people to rise up against Brexit, I urge the British people to rise up and turn off the TV the next time Blair comes on with his condescending campaign."
> 
> Former Cabinet minister Iain Duncan Smith told Sky News Mr Blair "seems to have forgotten what democracy is about" and accused him of "arrogance".
> 
> In an impassioned speech, Mr Blair rejected the idea that leaving was now "inevitable", adding: "I accept right now there is no widespread appetite to re-think.
> 
> "But the people voted without knowledge of the true terms of Brexit. As these terms become clear, it is their right to change their mind. Our mission is to persuade them to do so.
> 
> "I don't know if we can succeed. But I do know we will suffer a rancorous verdict from future generations if we do not try.
> 
> In a keynote speech in London, Mr Blair questioned whether the referendum had given a mandate for "Brexit at any cost".
> 
> But his intervention has drawn the ire of Brexit supporters, with Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson accusing Mr Blair of "insulting the intelligence" of those who voted to leave.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/tony-blai...-he-denies-responsibility-for-brexit-10771251


He would go down well on this forum then as it seems all of us who voted to leave did so without knowing what we were voting for whilst being brainwashed by newspapers we don't even read :JoyfulTalk about double standards -

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/dec/12/tony-blair-iraq-chilcot-inquiry

"Tony Blair has said he would have invaded Iraq even without evidence of weapons of mass destruction and would have found a way to justify the war to parliament and the public."

"It is possible that Blair has shifted his ground in anticipation of his appearance early next year before the Chilcot inquiry. The inquiry has heard that Blair made clear to President George Bush at a meeting in Texas 11 months before the Iraq invasion that he would be prepared to join the US in toppling Saddam."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8409526.stm

Later that year, Mr Blair made what came to be an infamous claim to MPs: "It [the intelligence service] concludes that Iraq has chemical and biological weapons, that Saddam has continued to produce them, that he has existing and active military plans for the use of chemical and biological weapons, *which **could be activated within 45 minutes*."

Thanks to him many MP's voted without knowing "the true cost".


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> I agree whith him whole heartedly, I think it's a shame he's left it so late.


Are you refering to T.B.? Happy Paws, the man who took us to war, with lies and more lies.
watching the news at the moment, so far nobody has agreed with what he has said.



DT said:


> Toxic tony! The biggest liar out there. Even his own dont like him


Totally agree with you DT.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> He would go down well on this forum then as it seems all of us who voted to leave did so without knowing what we were voting for whilst being brainwashed by newspapers we don't even read :JoyfulTalk about double standards -
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/dec/12/tony-blair-iraq-chilcot-inquiry
> 
> "Tony Blair has said he would have invaded Iraq even without evidence of weapons of mass destruction and would have found a way to justify the war to parliament and the public."
> 
> "It is possible that Blair has shifted his ground in anticipation of his appearance early next year before the Chilcot inquiry. The inquiry has heard that Blair made clear to President George Bush at a meeting in Texas 11 months before the Iraq invasion that he would be prepared to join the US in toppling Saddam."
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8409526.stm
> 
> Later that year, Mr Blair made what came to be an infamous claim to MPs: "It [the intelligence service] concludes that Iraq has chemical and biological weapons, that Saddam has continued to produce them, that he has existing and active military plans for the use of chemical and biological weapons, *which **could be activated within 45 minutes*."
> 
> Thanks to him many MP's voted without knowing "the true cost".


Here we go again. If it wasn't for the "special relationship" UK PMs keep going on about there would never have been the Iraq war.

Yes he was very enthusiastic in supporting Bush's "War on terror".

What makes people think May will be less enthusiastic in supporting whatever Trump comes up with?

Anyway, Blair is talking a lot of sense in my view. He has been active before and after the referendum. Remember the joint conference with John Major in Northern Ireland for example?

My quality of life, for one, improved under Blair's premiership which I'll be forever grateful.

My twopence worth anyway.....

Re brainwash by papers it seems I'm not the only one to believe this. I had no part in influencing this contributor to another forum:

Edit - can't find the link at the moment!


----------



## DoodlesRule

Perhaps we are being too harsh on poor old Tony, he could have been wheeled out to unite the divided UK - we all join together in hating him


----------



## stockwellcat.

@noushka05 and @KittenKong this is part of a leaflet distributed during the campaigning for the Referendum.

























Once Theresa May has Royal Assent on the Article 50 bill she has no excuse for anymore delays.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Here we go again. If it wasn't for the "special relationship" UK PMs keep going on about there would never have been the Iraq war.
> 
> Yes he was very enthusiastic in supporting Bush's "War on terror".
> 
> What makes people think May will be less enthusiastic in supporting whatever Trump comes up with?
> 
> Anyway, Blair is talking a lot of sense in my view. He has been active before and after the referendum. Remember the joint conference with John Major in Northern Ireland for example?
> 
> Mu quality of life, for one, improved under Blair's premiership which I'll be forever grateful.
> 
> My twopence worth anyway.....
> 
> Re brainwash by papers it seems I'm not the only one to believe this. I had no part in influencing this contributor to another forum:


ohhhher ! That special relationship , you mean the the one were blair was so far up bushes jacksy its a wonder he never got stuck. We always referred to him as the puppet
But in realiaty he was a weak warmongering streak of urine led into war buy the playground bully!

There, I put that really nicely for you, would hate anyone to missunderstand my views on him.
He should be in prison! And he reminds me of a grinning cheshire cat


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Here we go again. If it wasn't for the "special relationship" UK PMs keep going on about there would never have been the Iraq war.
> 
> Yes he was very enthusiastic in supporting Bush's "War on terror".
> 
> What makes people think May will be less enthusiastic in supporting whatever Trump comes up with?
> 
> Anyway, Blair is talking a lot of sense in my view. He has been active before and after the referendum. Remember the joint conference with John Major in Northern Ireland for example?
> 
> Mu quality of life, for one, improved under Blair's premiership which I'll be forever grateful.
> 
> My twopence worth anyway.....
> 
> Re brainwash by papers it seems I'm not the only one to believe this. I had no part in influencing this contributor to another forum:


Doesn't alter the fact that he misled not only the house but the country to get what he wanted so it is rank hypocrisy to now be crying about people who voted for Brexit not understanding what they voted for.

Which contributor to another forum are you talking about? do you have a link?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Here we go again. If it wasn't for the "special relationship" UK PMs keep going on about there would never have been the Iraq war.
> 
> Yes he was very enthusiastic in supporting Bush's "War on terror".
> 
> What makes people think May will be less enthusiastic in supporting whatever Trump comes up with?
> 
> Anyway, Blair is talking a lot of sense in my view. He has been active before and after the referendum. Remember the joint conference with John Major in Northern Ireland for example?
> 
> Mu quality of life, for one, improved under Blair's premiership which I'll be forever grateful.
> 
> My twopence worth anyway.....
> 
> Re brainwash by papers it seems I'm not the only one to believe this. I had no part in influencing this contributor to another forum:


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> Perhaps we are being too harsh on poor old Tony, he could have been wheeled out to unite the divided UK - we all join together in hating him


Seems you're right. It's the only thing The Sun (who actually supported the Iraq war) and Guardian agree on.


----------



## Honeys mum

'We don't trust you': Tony Blair's 'rise up' Brexit speech leaves many on social media unimpressed 


Boris Johnson attacks Tony Blair's 'bare-faced effrontery' after former PM urges Remainers to 'rise up' against Brexit

Farage TAUNTS Blair as 'former boxer who comes back to be KNOCKED OUT' | UK | News | Express.co.uk

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/17/tony-blair-eu-brexit-mission-remainers-live/


----------



## kimthecat

Teflon Tony's attention seeking , he's desperate and he'd say anything to get back into politics.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Doesn't alter the fact that he misled not only the house but the country to get what he wanted so it is rank hypocrisy to now be crying about people who voted for Brexit not understanding what they voted for.
> 
> Which contributor to another forum are you talking about? do you have a link?


Yes, perhaps but in his defence Blair's always been pro EU and has not changed his view on that, unlike another PM I could mention who actually backed remain in the referendum who has become as pro Brexit as Farage is!

As regards to a contributor from another forum I can't find it at the moment! Anyway it mentioned words to the effect s/he believes The Sun, Mail and Express were primarily responsible for the Leave victory.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is why Blair can't be trusted









And this is what they found









And his best buddy Bush told









And because of Blair's lies


----------



## Zaros

DoodlesRule said:


> Couldn't agree more.
> 
> I am positive he will change minds though .................................... Remain voters to Leave that is!


I believe the old song goes something along the lines of _'Never smile at a crocodile'_

If ever there was a candidate worthy of having their smarmy, ingratiating grin severely smacked from their face, then, in my estimation, Blair would be the prime nominee.
I certainly wouldn't trust the man to dispose of a bucket of Oscar's sh1t even if he volunteered to undertake the task.

I'd be concerned that he had some profitable ulterior motive in mind.
And I'd really hate to be exploited by this two faced, back stabbing little ****



DoodlesRule said:


> Perhaps we are being too harsh on poor old Tony











rottiepointerhouse said:


> "Tony Blair has said he would have invaded Iraq even without evidence of weapons of mass destruction and would have found a way to justify the war to parliament and the public."
> 
> "It is possible that Blair has shifted his ground in anticipation of his appearance early next year before the Chilcot inquiry. The inquiry has heard that Blair made clear to President George Bush at a meeting in Texas 11 months before the Iraq invasion that he would be prepared to join the US in toppling Saddam."
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8409526.stm
> 
> Later that year, Mr Blair made what came to be an infamous claim to MPs: "It [the intelligence service] concludes that Iraq has chemical and biological weapons, that Saddam has continued to produce them, that he has existing and active military plans for the use of chemical and biological weapons, *which **could be activated within 45 minutes*."
> 
> Thanks to him many MP's voted without knowing "the true cost".


Blair's finest ever achievement to date was burying his criminal past . The cover up of the (controversial) 9/11 atrocity, the UK/US war against Iraq and the suspicious circumstances surrounding death of Dr David Kelly to name but a few.

_'The greatest crime of the 21st century was committed in Iraq. An invasion based on demonstrable lies, took the lives, directly and indirectly, of a million people' _John Pilger_.
_
Saddam, incidentally, had nothing to do with WTC. Despot and tyrant he might have been. But Bush wanted him out of the way because he was no longer of any benefit to them. 9/11 was the convenience and excuse for Bush to get his wish.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> This tickled me.
> View attachment 300812


That's in poor taste, BTW there's people under that age who don't have a future due to illness .

What is it called again when certain groups are banned from voting ? I know for certain its not called democracy

There's no definite figures for how many in each age group voted but *if* the info on the link below
is a reasonable guess then it seems that more young people could have voted for their futures.

.https://www.theguardian.com/comment...eople-bad-voting-millennials-eu-vote-politics


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Which contributor to another forum are you talking about? do you have a link?


While I couldn't find the post in question I did find these on a similar matter:

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36226&start=4280









---------------------------------------------








--------------------------------------------


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36226&start=4280
> 
> View attachment 300894
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> View attachment 300895
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> View attachment 300896


Newspapers are biased. That is most definitely indisputable

_'In a dictatorship we are more fortunate than you in the west.
We believe nothing of what we read in the newspapers and nothing of what we watch on the television because we know it's propaganda and lies.
Unlike you in the west we've learned to look behind the propaganda and to read between the lines.
Unlike you we know that the real truth is always subversive' (_Czechoslovakian Novelist - Zdener Urbanek_ - _1917 - 2008)


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> While I couldn't find the post in question I did find these on a similar matter:
> 
> http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36226&start=4280
> 
> View attachment 300894
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> View attachment 300895
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> View attachment 300896


So you and those who voted remain then because the guardian, or whichever comic you read told you to?


----------



## Zaros

Honeys mum said:


>


And his partner in crime;

Évery picture tells a story

The Dog That Never Barked. For me, the expression on Bush's face after Andrew Card whispered in his ear that America was under attack confirms his guilt.

Sh1t! No going back now.








​And he claimed he stayed because he didn't want to scare the children.

What was so wrong with telling them a white lie George? You were excellent at telling black ones.

But instead you just simply sat there and used the innocents, yet again, for an alibi.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Yes, perhaps but in his defence Blair's always been pro EU and has not changed his view on that, unlike another PM I could mention who actually backed remain in the referendum who has become as pro Brexit as Farage is!
> 
> As regards to a contributor from another forum I can't find it at the moment! Anyway it mentioned words to the effect s/he believes The Sun, Mail and Express were primarily responsible for the Leave victory.


Oh must be true if a contributor to a forum says so :Hilarious:Hilarious The voters were responsible for the leave vote not the newspapers who as I keep on telling you have hardly any readers anymore so it doesn't really matter what they say because hardly anyone reads them. Oh except you do love to keep posting links to The Sun so can only assume you do read it.



DT said:


> So you and those who voted remain then because the guardian, or whichever comic you read told you to?


Now now DT, I'm afraid it doesn't work like that. If you voted to leave you only did so because of The Sun or Mail or Express but if you voted to remain you did so because you are more intelligent, better informed and therefore exempt from the influence of any newspaper. Its bloody hilarious :Joyful


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Oh must be true if a contributor to a forum says so :Hilarious
> 
> Now now DT, I'm afraid it doesn't work like that. If you voted to leave you only did so because of The Sun or Mail or Express but if you voted to remain you did so because you are more intelligent, better informed and therefore exempt from the influence of any newspaper. Its bloody hilarious :Joyful


Lol, you couldnt make it up could you?


----------



## Calvine

Zaros said:


> Peace envoy


A misnomer if ever there was one!


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 300881
> 
> @noushka05 and @KittenKong this is part of a leaflet distributed during the campaigning for the Referendum.
> 
> View attachment 300882
> 
> View attachment 300883
> 
> View attachment 300884
> 
> Once Theresa May has Royal Assent on the Article 50 bill she has no excuse for anymore delays.


Thanks for that. I was going to dig out the very same part of the £9m leaflet.

It is disingenuous in the extreme to claim that the referendum was advisory.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Thanks for that. I was going to dig out the very same part of the £9m leaflet.
> *
> It is disingenuous in the extreme to claim that the referendum was advisory*.


The Supreme Court Justices didn't once refer to the Referendum as advisory in there ruling and the PM and Government have said that the point of no return has passed and that was on the 23rd June 2016.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Yes, perhaps but in his defence Blair's always been pro EU and has not changed his view on
> 
> As regards to a contributor from another forum I can't find it at the moment! Anyway it mentioned words to the effect s/he believes The Sun, Mail and Express were primarily responsible for the Leave victory.


As for the forum member that believes the press were responsible for determing how we voted, we can only assume that she too was influenced in her choice of how to vote by one or the other, she obviously chose the other.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Oh must be true if a contributor to a forum says so :Hilarious:Hilarious The voters were responsible for the leave vote not the newspapers who as I keep on telling you have hardly any readers anymore so it doesn't really matter what they say because hardly anyone reads them. Oh except you do love to keep posting links to The Sun so can only assume you do read it.


Come on! Go to any newsagent, supermarket and even Petrol stations, these headlines stare at people without having to buy these papers.

I say so! I posted those comments to prove I'm not alone in thinking this. The Sun themselves gave the comment, "It's The Sun what won it" in 1992. In 1997 it was, "It's The Sun what swung it" on Blair's election.

You can't deny these papers don't influence many people. Have you seen the Sun's letters page for example?

As mentioned before there's always people who vote Tory or Labour regardless. In general elections over the past 30 years I've always voted Labour for example.

"Floating" voters always make the difference in any election. How do they decide? The media of course!

There's copies of these dreadful papers everywhere. Yes, I do look at them to see what they're preaching. A sort of "newspaper" equivalent of the well known term, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer".......

Yes, I know people call it a "Newspaper" it reports the facts apparently.

Then there's the term, "I know it's true, I know it's right. It's in the papers in black and white".

I've never suggested anyone on this forum voted leave because their papers told them to.

I do agree however in the years to come Social media will have more influence.

This could explain why a certain media tycoon wants complete control of his satellite empire.


----------



## stuaz

@KittenKong i think you give the newspaper industry far too much credit to influence people in this modern world.


----------



## 1290423

[QUOTE="KittenKong, post: 1064781205,

I say so! I posted those comments to prove I'm not alone e.[/QUOTE]

Oh, so if you say so and someone off another forum says so then it must be true then?

Reallly! This is getting to sound very much like children in the playground! He said, she said, they said!


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> [QUOTE="KittenKong, post: 1064781205,
> 
> I say so! I posted those comments to prove I'm not alone e.





> Oh, so if you say so and someone off another forum says so then it must be true then?
> 
> Reallly! This is getting to sound very much like children in the playground! He said, she said, they said!


Well you know when a debate has been won, the other side go around in circles with what they have already said over and over again.  They also don't have there own opinion it is the opinion of others and news articles


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Come on! Go to any newsagent, supermarket and even Petrol stations, these headlines stare at people without having to buy these papers.
> 
> You can't deny these papers don't influence many people. Have you seen the Sun's letters page for example?
> "Floating" voters always make the difference in any election. How do they decide? The media of course!
> 
> There's copies of these dreadful papers everywhere. Yes, I do look at them to see what they're preaching. A sort of "newspaper" equivalent of the well known term, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer".......
> .


You are serious aren't you? :Facepalm :Wideyed

I can honestly say that I've seen no more daily newspapers than I could count on one hand in the last 10+ years, apart from the rubbish that you keep putting on here


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Come on! Go to any newsagent, supermarket and even Petrol stations, these headlines stare at people without having to buy these papers.
> 
> I say so! I posted those comments to prove I'm not alone in thinking this. The Sun themselves gave the comment, "It's The Sun what won it" in 1992. In 1997 it was, "It's The Sun what swung it" on Blair's election.
> 
> You can't deny these papers don't influence many people. Have you seen the Sun's letters page for example?
> 
> As mentioned before there's always people who vote Tory or Labour regardless. In general elections over the past 30 years I've always voted Labour for example.
> 
> "Floating" voters always make the difference in any election. How do they decide? The media of course!
> 
> There's copies of these dreadful papers everywhere. Yes, I do look at them to see what they're preaching. A sort of "newspaper" equivalent of the well known term, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer".......
> 
> Yes, I know people call it a "Newspaper" it reports the facts apparently.
> 
> Then there's the term, "I know it's true, I know it's right. It's in the papers in black and white".
> 
> I've never suggested anyone on this forum voted leave because their papers told them to.
> 
> I do agree however in the years to come Social media will have more influence.
> 
> This could explain why a certain media tycoon wants complete control of his satellite empire.


Yes I can deny that these papers influence many people and I do. I say so therefore it must be right if I go by your rules  No I have not seen the Sun's letter page because unlike you I don't read it, don't buy it, never have, never will, never even read the headlines because I don't go in Newsagents (being as I don't buy newspapers, smoke not eat sweets) and when I shop in the supermarket which is rare I admit, I simply don't go through the newspaper and magazine sections because they have nothing I am interested in. Its really not that difficult to avoid these newspapers that you dislike so much so why don't you give it a try?

There you go again telling us how people decide how to vote. How do you know and I mean know not assume what influences the floating voters? I might have been considered a floating voter at the last general election, I've voted labour a few times in the past (in my younger days I was actually a member of the Militant tendency along with animal rights organisations), and I've voted Conservative a few times. I've never been tempted by the Greens or the Lib Dems mind you. Last time I seriously considered not voting at all because none of the parties really represented my views and I had totally lost faith and interest in all of them. In the end I voted Tory but I can assure you the media did not influence me, I did my own research and made up my own mind. I would not presume to know what factors the way anyone else voted so really can't grasp why you think you know other peoples minds better than they do.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You are serious aren't you? :Facepalm :Wideyed
> 
> I can honestly say that I've seen no more daily newspapers than I could count on one hand in the last 10+ years, apart from the rubbish that you keep putting on here


I bet you wouldn't say that if the same papers backed remain and that won!!!!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The Supreme Court Justices didn't once refer to the Referendum as advisory in there ruling and the PM and Government have said that the point of no return has passed and that was on the 23rd June 2016.


Shame those who look into it, including Farage admit it was advisory only then isn't it. Nothing is past the point of no return until we actually leave. It's called democracy.

As for media.. still haven't seen any reasoning other than than the faulty lies of the leave campaign spread through the media.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You are serious aren't you? :Facepalm :Wideyed
> 
> I can honestly say that I've seen no more daily newspapers than I could count on one hand in the last 10+ years, apart from the rubbish that you keep putting on here


You're lucky. I find around here avoiding them isn't possible. Outside petrol stations staring at customers and even supermarkets. Guess which paper is always the first to sell out?!

Of course I could avoid them but food is essential to life is it not? A car is essential for work too. Public transport isn't an option but I use it from time to time when not at work. Oh yes, free copies of the Metro on the bus. Anyone remember the four page DUP advert for leave including the front and back pages a few days before the referendum in that?!



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I can deny that these papers influence many people and I do. I say so therefore it must be right if I go by your rules  No I have not seen the Sun's letter page because unlike you I don't read it, don't buy it, never have, never will, never even read the headlines because I don't go in Newsagents (being as I don't buy newspapers, smoke not eat sweets) and when I shop in the supermarket which is rare I admit, I simply don't go through the newspaper and magazine sections because they have nothing I am interested in. Its really not that difficult to avoid these newspapers that you dislike so much so why don't you give it a try?
> There you go again telling us how people decide how to vote. How do you know and I mean know not assume what influences the floating voters? I might have been considered a floating voter at the last general election, I've voted labour a few times in the past (in my younger days I was actually a member of the Militant tendency along with animal rights organisations), and I've voted Conservative a few times. I've never been tempted by the Greens or the Lib Dems mind you. Last time I seriously considered not voting at all because none of the parties really represented my views and I had totally lost faith and interest in all of them. In the end I voted Tory but I can assure you the media did not influence me, I did my own research and made up my own mind. I would not presume to know what factors the way anyone else voted so really can't grasp why you think you know other peoples minds better than they do.


Must say I'm rather shocked. I had you down as a lifelong true blue supporter and member of the Conservative party! I don't mean to cause any offence by saying that.
Goes to show the impressions one gives hidden behind a computer screen by their posts on a forum.

I think much of what I said was misunderstood. I'm well aware many floating voters do their own research. I should have made that clear in my earlier post.

Certainly in the days before social media there was little alternative to the press and tv.

I repeat, I have not suggested anyone here voted the way their paper told them to.

You say I can't prove that. No I can't formerly. So equally how can you prove some people weren't influenced by them?

Do you also think people buy Persil because it washes whiter and Fairy because the hands that do dishes can be as soft as your face?

Advertising is a powerful medium!

Do newspaper headlines not serve as a form of advertising, at least to encourage sales?


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> That's in poor taste, BTW there's people under that age who don't have a future due to illness .
> 
> What is it called again when certain groups are banned from voting ? I know for certain its not called democracy
> 
> There's no definite figures for how many in each age group voted but *if* the info on the link below
> is a reasonable guess then it seems that more young people could have voted for their futures.
> 
> .https://www.theguardian.com/comment...eople-bad-voting-millennials-eu-vote-politics


I don't generally take offence at satire - I thought that was funny. Certainly doesn't mean people like Sean Lock don't care about the old & the sick nor does it mean hes serious about banning the old from voting lol. It was a joke.

It does appear to be the case that more of the older generation voted to leave then the young, yet consequences of leaving the EU will obviously affect the younger generation more. I feel really sorry for them. My children made friends from different countries at uni, they liked our inclusive society.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Shame those who look into it, including Farage admit it was advisory only then isn't it. Nothing is past the point of no return until we actually leave. It's called democracy.
> 
> As for media.. still haven't seen any reasoning other than than the faulty lies of the leave campaign spread through the media.


This information didn't come from the press. Theresa May said it on PMQ's last week live on TV that the point of no return has passed and David Davis also said it before the vote in Parliament on Article 50. The process has begun of leaving the EU, the vote on the article 50 bill is democracy in action and was the beginning of the process.

You are deluded if you think you can stop the process.

The will of the people must be respected, that's the will of the 17.4+ million that voted to leave.

This is what it said on the leaflet everyone received during the Referendum:









The only people that go on about the press is @KittenKong and @noushka05 trying to say it is facts.


----------



## noushka05

Inflation rising, retail sales falling, housing market stalling. The wheels are starting to come off. https://www.ft.com/content/3e4ee174-f4ef-11e6-95ee-f14e55513608


----------



## noushka05




----------



## stockwellcat.

Just in case you missed it @Goblin this is the amendments Parliament voted on and rejected for the Article 50 bill. I watched the whole debate and voting on the BBC Parliament Channel Live. This is democracy in action.

*The Article 50 Amendments and how Parliament voted.*

1. Give MPs a veto on the final deal
Rejected
The result was 326-293.

2. Prove if the NHS will get £350m a week
Rejected
The result 337 votes to 288

3. Give Britain a second EU referendum
Rejected
The results 340 votes to 33.

4. Stay in the EU if MPs can't agree
Rejected
The results 336 votes to 88

5. Stop 'excessive' tax cuts for big business
Rejected
The results 336 votes to 289

6. Get every nation's approval BEFORE Article 50
Rejected
The results 332 votes to 62

7. Protect workers' rights
Rejected
The results 336 votes to 291

8. Make Theresa May update MPs every two months
Rejected
The results 333 to 284

9. Give more say to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
Rejected
The results 333 to 27

10. Keep Leave's funding promises for Wales
Rejected
The results 330 to 267

11. Reveal the Treasury's assessment of Brexit
Rejected
The results 337 to 281

12. Reveal our EU "divorce bill"
Rejected
The results 333 to 79

13. Consult Gibraltar before Article 50
Rejected
The results 338 to 288

14. Preserve rights for people in Northern Ireland
Rejected
The results 327 votes to 288

15. Guarantee EU citizens already here can stay
Rejected
The results 332 votes to 290

16. Stay in Euratom
Rejected
The results 336 votes to 287

The Government won the backing of 494 MPs, while 122 voted against the article 50 bill.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Inflation rising, retail sales falling, housing market stalling. The wheels are starting to come off. https://www.ft.com/content/3e4ee174-f4ef-11e6-95ee-f14e55513608
> 
> View attachment 300966


Inflation normally rises.
We haven't had inflation for a couple of years and now it is back.

I said this before the price of food and petrol normally goes up anyway with or without inflation.

There is a great supermarket were food prices haven't gone up and it's called Aldi. If you shop at the main stream supermarkets like Tescos, Waitrose, Sainsburys, Morrison's, Asda you will see the prices hike up.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> View attachment 300967


I will ignore it as the picture is blurry and doing my eyes in


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> I bet you wouldn't say that if the same papers backed remain and that won!!!!


Wow! You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now, seriously, it was only ever a two horse race, you have assumed that the majority of voters have determined their vote on a comic, one which you must obviously digest enthusiastically as you are far more versed with said comics content then most of us.
Did it never occur to the remainers that many of us have hungered for that vote for many many years, irrespective of whatever each side claimed or lied about they were still only every going to place that cross in the LEAVE box, we didn't need to read any comics to try and alter our decisions, 
And no! For your information I would not have blamed the papers, which incidently apart from a Saturday I neither buy nor read them, and only buy on a Saturday for the TV content.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Inflation normally rises.
> We haven't had inflation for a couple of years and now it is back.
> 
> I said this before the price of food and petrol normally goes up anyway with or without inflation.
> 
> There is a great supermarket were food prices haven't gone up and it's called Aldi. If you shop at the main stream supermarkets like Tescos, Waitrose, Sainsburys, Morrison's, Asda you will see the prices hike up.


Longer then two years, it's been pretty stable for around five years now.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> I bet you wouldn't say that if the same papers backed remain and that won!!!!


Then you would lose your bet. Not everyone is a sore loser.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I bet you wouldn't say that if the same papers backed remain and that won!!!!





KittenKong said:


> You're lucky. I find around here avoiding them isn't possible. Outside petrol stations staring at customers and even supermarkets. Guess which paper is always the first to sell out?!
> 
> Of course I could avoid them but food is essential to life is it not? A car is essential for work too. Public transport isn't an option but I use it from time to time when not at work. Oh yes, free copies of the Metro on the bus. Anyone remember the four page DUP advert for leave including the front and back pages a few days before the referendum in that?!


  

Just because you are drawn to read such drivel, it doesn't mean other are.

We have exactly the same here, free papers everywhere, papers to read when you go to get your tyre changed or stand in the queue for your fish and chips even in the doctors surgery, even have those stands with headlines on outside paper shops

*I NEVER LOOK AT THEM.............*I'm not interested in them, it's like going into a supermarket and walking down and isle that has nothing in I want, I never look!! It's like gossip, if someone starts gossiping I walk away. I bet you hang on every word 

If I want to read while waiting, I'll pick up a local rag or National Geographic (everyone has them) or some nature mag.

Hell, the vast majority of the time when I'm looking to answer you, I rarely click on a newspaper article.

I'd rather go and find a more factual source

I honestly can't see why this is so difficult for you to understand...............


----------



## rona

Inflation is hitting the EU too......I put a link on here somewhere

Just looked at a table from the EU (it's easy to find) which gives inflation figures by country. Most are running at about 3%.......guess the few that aren't? Those with the biggest snouts in the pie.......... though they are still running at 1.8-1,9%


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> You're lucky. I find around here avoiding them isn't possible. Outside petrol stations staring at customers and even supermarkets. Guess which paper is always the first to sell out?!
> 
> Certainly in the days before social media there was little alternative to the press and tv.
> 
> Do you also think people buy Persil because it washes whiter and Fairy because the hands that do dishes can be as soft as your face?
> 
> Advertising is a powerful medium!
> 
> Do newspaper headlines not serve as a form of advertising, at least to encourage sales?


I don't buy Persil it's rubbish, and I didn't even mention the manufacturer
And aldi washing liquid, magnum, is far better then fairy, and less than half the price
Just goes to prove I base my decisions on the actual performance of the product rather they what the media try to tell me is best.


----------



## rona

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/inflation-cpi
Oh look at Germany

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi
UK

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/inflation-cpi
Even France who are fairing better than most

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/inflation-cpi
Spain

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/czech-republic/inflation-cpi
Czech-republic

Anyway, you can look the rest up yourselves


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/inflation-cpi
> Oh look at Germany
> 
> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi
> UK
> 
> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/inflation-cpi
> Even France who are fairing better than most
> 
> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/inflation-cpi
> Spain
> 
> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/czech-republic/inflation-cpi
> Czech-republic
> 
> Anyway, you can look the rest up yourselves


Opps Rona,
You appear to have posted a reliable factual source of information there!
Don't really know if that's advisable or even allowable on such threads, besides taking into account that many of the arguements currently made by the remain side being supported by the likes of the BBC sun, guardian, etc surely you cannot expect such posters to consider anything factual to be true.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

I never look at the papers when walking past either, tbf. I've not read a Sun headline in donkeys' years.

The only ones I tend to read are The Times, the Racing Post and occasionally the Daily Mail which I buy as a trashy read. It stands for pretty much everything I do not, and it certainly doesn't influence my thinking.


I must say this 'them-and-us' mentality makes me very uncomfortable. Some may identify themselves as 'leavers' or 'Brexiteers' or 'remainers', but there is lot more to me than my referendum vote and I don't like being lumped in with the millions of other people who shared my choice on the ballot paper as if my opinions and reasons are identical to theirs.

I know others feel the same way, yet throughout these threads there seems to be an awful lot of 'the leavers think that' and 'the remainers say this'. Well, I only say what I say and nobody else needs to speak for me. Least of all Blair.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> I don't generally take offence at satire - I thought that was funny. Certainly doesn't mean people like Sean Lock don't care about the old & the sick nor does it mean hes serious about banning the old from voting lol. It was a joke.


yes of course its a joke in very poor taste. You always find jokes funny when they're aimed at people who's view you disagree on . Sean Locke pretending to be a comedian is a joke , too 

*Satire Definition*
Satire is a technique employed by writers to expose and criticize foolishness and corruption of an individual or a society by using humor, irony, exaggeration or ridicule.

Well there you go , that's old foolish people for you ! 



> It does appear to be the case that more of the older generation voted to leave then the young, yet consequences of leaving the EU will obviously affect the younger generation more.


Yes they did and more turned out to vote than youths and young adults . If the Youths had bothered to vote then perhaps the outcome would have been different , they weren't that concerned for their future. That 's youfs for you !


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Just because you are drawn to read such drivel, it doesn't mean other are.
> 
> We have exactly the same here, free papers everywhere, papers to read when you go to get your tyre changed or stand in the queue for your fish and chips even in the doctors surgery, even have those stands with headlines on outside paper shops
> 
> *I NEVER LOOK AT THEM.............*I'm not interested in them, it's like going into a supermarket and walking down and isle that has nothing in I want, I never look!! It's like gossip, if someone starts gossiping I walk away. I bet you hang on every word
> 
> If I want to read while waiting, I'll pick up a local rag or National Geographic (everyone has them) or some nature mag.
> 
> Hell, the vast majority of the time when I'm looking to answer you, I rarely click on a newspaper article.
> 
> I'd rather go and find a more factual source
> 
> I honestly can't see why this is so difficult for you to understand...............


Sigh..... This is getting rather silly isn't it? Perhaps we should agree to differ and move on.

Just want to add it wasn't my intention to cause offence to anyone.


Ceiling Kitty said:


> I never look at the papers when walking past either, tbf. I've not read a Sun headline in donkeys' years.
> 
> The only ones I tend to read are The Times, the Racing Post and occasionally the Daily Mail which I buy as a trashy read. It stands for pretty much everything I do not, and it certainly doesn't influence my thinking.
> 
> I must say this 'them-and-us' mentality makes me very uncomfortable. Some may identify themselves as 'leavers' or 'Brexiteers' or 'remainers', but there is lot more to me than my referendum vote and I don't like being lumped in with the millions of other people who shared my choice on the ballot paper as if my opinions and reasons are identical to theirs.
> 
> I know others feel the same way, yet throughout these threads there seems to be an awful lot of 'the leavers think that' and 'the remainers say this'. Well, I only say what I say and nobody else needs to speak for me. Least of all Blair.


The unfortunate outcome of this referendum. It's divided the UK.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Sigh..... This is getting rather silly isn't it? Perhaps we should agree to differ and move on.
> 
> Just want to add it wasn't my intention to cause offence to anyone.


All the time you put on silly statements about why I and many others vote out, I will counter that because I know you are wrong.

I don't take offence easily and nothing you have said has made me feel offended.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> All the time you put on silly statements about why I and many others vote out, I will counter that because I know you are wrong.
> 
> I don't take offence easily and nothing you have said has made me feel offended.


I respect your opinion that you're right and I'm wrong.

Perhaps newspapers and TV should give up advertising as clearly the general public take absolutely no notice of them!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I respect your opinion that you're right and I'm wrong.
> 
> Perhaps newspapers and TV should give up advertising as clearly the general public take absolutely no notice of them!


Well they obviously influenced you and you voted in


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> I respect your opinion that you're right and I'm wrong.
> 
> Perhaps newspapers and TV should give up advertising as clearly the general public take absolutely no notice of them!


Are you saying that Edward Bernays was just a figment of everyone's fragile imagination KK?

Why, he's one of the main reasons why we're all in the mess we find ourselves in today.:Facepalm


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> You're lucky. I find around here avoiding them isn't possible. Outside petrol stations staring at customers and even supermarkets. Guess which paper is always the first to sell out?!
> 
> Of course I could avoid them but food is essential to life is it not? A car is essential for work too. Public transport isn't an option but I use it from time to time when not at work. Oh yes, free copies of the Metro on the bus. Anyone remember the four page DUP advert for leave including the front and back pages a few days before the referendum in that?!
> 
> Must say I'm rather shocked. I had you down as a lifelong true blue supporter and member of the Conservative party! I don't mean to cause any offence by saying that.
> Goes to show the impressions one gives hidden behind a computer screen by their posts on a forum.
> 
> I think much of what I said was misunderstood. I'm well aware many floating voters do their own research. I should have made that clear in my earlier post.
> 
> Certainly in the days before social media there was little alternative to the press and tv.
> 
> I repeat, I have not suggested anyone here voted the way their paper told them to.
> 
> You say I can't prove that. No I can't formerly. So equally how can you prove some people weren't influenced by them?
> 
> Do you also think people buy Persil because it washes whiter and Fairy because the hands that do dishes can be as soft as your face?
> 
> Advertising is a powerful medium!
> 
> Do newspaper headlines not serve as a form of advertising, at least to encourage sales?


I think what we are trying to get across to you is that a) you shouldn't make assumptions about people - whether that is how they vote, how they have voted in the past and what factors influence how they vote. Like I've said many times on this thread if you asked every person who voted to leave and every person who voted remain why they did you would no doubt get very different answers from them all. b) A lot of us do not read newspapers and are not drawn to headlines because they do not feature on our radar, its perfectly easy to avoid them in supermarkets and elsewhere. c) Free newspapers can be put straight in the recycling bin - I couldn't even tell you a single headline from any of ours because I don't bother to look at them. d) Some people are more susceptible to the media and to advertising than others - I don't watch adverts as I rarely watch live TV - everything is recorded and I fast forward through the adverts so again I have no idea what slogans Fairy and Persil use because I don't watch them. I buy according to my likes and dislikes - if I buy something and I don't think it does the job I expected then I simply don't buy it again, would not matter a jot to me what advertisers say or which celebrity endorses the product. e) If newspaper headlines are a form of advertising and newspapers are as influential as you keep telling us then why are their circulation figures at an all time low?

You might not have suggested anyone here voted the way "their" paper told them to but you do keep on and on implying that leave voters were influenced by the Sun or the Mail so why not just accept that a "small minority" of leave voters "may" have been influenced by their newspaper and a similar "small minority" of remain voters "may" have been influenced by their chosen newspaper and that social media may have influenced both depending on who you happen to like and follow which in my case is none as I don't do facebook or twitter or instagram.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
labeling anyone who voted to remain as "sore losers" is merely antagonistic & very narrow-minded.
Even some who voted "out" are now concerned about the process, or about the side-effects, & from this remove, i'd say they have very good reason to worry.
.
Leaving it all to the Govt to sort out while blithely going about one's daily rounds in the serene faith that it'll all work out well is something like a child put to bed while the worried Parental Units try to solve a sudden crisis in the family finances, downstairs -
it's pointless to worry a child with decisions s/he can't make, but voters & citizens aren't children.
Adults have vested interests & genuine worries, not monsters under the bed.
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="rottiepointerhouse, post: 1064781746, 
You might not have suggested anyone here voted the way "their" paper told them to but you do keep on and on implying that leave voters were influenced by the Sun or the Mail so why not just accept that a "small minority" of leave voters "may" have been influenced by their newspaper and a similar "small minority" of remain voters "may" have been influenced by their chosen newspaper and that social media may have influenced both depending on who you happen to like and follow which in my case is none as I don't do facebook or twitter or instagram.[/QUOTE]

Fair comment RPH. I'm all for compromising!

Perhaps some are more susceptible to newspaper headlines too?

As far as I'm concerned Beanz doesn't mean Heinz!


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

I've no doubt that the Sun and its brethren influenced the voting decisions of *some* people.

But that's not the same thing as saying it had an impact on all voters - that's just silly!


----------



## KittenKong

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I've no doubt that the Sun and its brethren influenced the voting decisions of *some* people.
> 
> But that's not the same thing as saying it had an impact on all voters - that's just silly!


Of course that's silly.

I never actually said the papers have an impact on all voters!

If you believe I have done would someone be kind enough to forward a link?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

leashedForLife said:


> .
> *labeling anyone who voted to remain as "sore losers" is merely antagonistic & very narrow-minded.*
> Even some who voted "out" are now concerned about the process, or about the side-effects, & from this remove, i'd say they have very good reason to worry.
> .
> Leaving it all to the Govt to sort out while blithely going about one's daily rounds in the serene faith that it'll all work out well is something like a child put to bed while the worried Parental Units try to solve a sudden crisis in the family finances, downstairs -
> it's pointless to worry a child with decisions s/he can't make, but voters & citizens aren't children.
> Adults have vested interests & genuine worries, not monsters under the bed.
> .
> .
> .


As is labelling anyone who voted to leave as "brain washed" "influenced by the right wing media" "racist" "selfish" "doesn't care about the future of the younger generation" and "over 65's shouldn't have a say as its not their future".


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> As is labelling anyone who voted to remain as "brain washed" "influenced by the right wing media" "racist" "selfish" "doesn't care about the future of the younger generation" and "over 65's shouldn't have a say as its not their future".


I take it you mean anyone who voted to leave?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> I take it you mean anyone who voted to leave?


I certainly did - thank you will go back and edit.


----------



## Guest

I`m just happy in EU we can focus on just making things better , and not on speculations what will happen after Brexit. Pity there was so little speculations before the vote, at least you´d have known what will happen once you vote yes.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## rona

MrsZee said:


> I`m just happy in EU we can focus on just making things better , and not on speculations what will happen after Brexit. Pity there was so little speculations before the vote, at least you´d have known what will happen once you vote yes.


No we wouldn't, not any more than if we'd remained.................


----------



## stockwellcat.

I love this speech by Boris Johnson (Although it was in response to Tony Blair yesterday) he talks about Brexit etc.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

MrsZee said:


> I`m just happy in EU we can focus on just making things better , and not on speculations what will happen after Brexit. Pity there was so little speculations before the vote, at least you´d have known what will happen once you vote yes.


There was plenty of speculation on both sides from what I remember.


----------



## Zaros

MrsZee said:


> I`m just happy in EU we can focus on just making things better , and not on speculations what will happen after Brexit. Pity there was so little speculations before the vote, at least you´d have known what will happen once you vote yes.


You're a God damn foreigner and because you're a God damn foreigner you don't have any God damn right to pass a God damn opinion on Britain, its affairs or its God damn people.
Judge not, that ye be not judged. Mathew 7:1-3 King James Ediition​







:Smug​


----------



## Satori

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I must say this 'them-and-us' mentality makes me very uncomfortable. Some may identify themselves as 'leavers' or 'Brexiteers' or 'remainers', but there is lot more to me than my referendum vote and I don't like being lumped in with the millions of other people who shared my choice on the ballot paper as if my opinions and reasons are identical to theirs.


Typical remainer.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Satori said:


> Typical remainer.


I'm not a typical anything!


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-brexit-ukip-party-conference-a7586961.html

Complete and utter madness....


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

What on earth has that got to do with the EU Referendum @KittenKong ? UKIP do not represent the vast majority of people who voted to leave the EU as I think you well know.

Notice you left this bit out though

"The leaflet was not produced or officially sanctioned by the party, but it was distributed at Ukip's national Spring party conference at the Macron Stadium in Bolton. "


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> What on earth has that got to do with the EU Referendum @KittenKong ? UKIP do not represent the vast majority of people who voted to leave the EU as I think you well know.
> 
> Notice you left this bit out though
> 
> "The leaflet was not produced or officially sanctioned by the party, but it was distributed at Ukip's national Spring party conference at the Macron Stadium in Bolton. "


Has a lot to do with it seeing they're accusing remainers of "Spiritual treason"! Incredible!

Anyway I did include the final paragraph that mentioned UKIP distanced themselves from the fringe group following their homophobic newsletter.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...a-eu-britain-brexit-immigration-free-movement


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


>


So, let me get this straight, you chose one contemptible liar to discredit another contemptible liar.

It wouldn't stand in a court of law.:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> So, let me get this straight, you chose one contemptible liar to discredit another contemptible liar.
> 
> It wouldn't stand in a court of law.:Hilarious


Using anyone from Parliament to discredit Blair wouldn't stand in court as they all lie about something (the MP's and ministers alike). :Hilarious


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Using anyone from Parliament to discredit Blair wouldn't stand in court as they all lie about something (the MP's and ministers alike). :Hilarious


Well, there you go then........:Facepalm


----------



## noushka05




----------



## samuelsmiles

I always thought Neil Kinnock was a staunch socialist type of guy back in the day?

*Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson among pro-EU peers looking to force changes to Brexit deal in House of Lords - but they are still earning tens of thousands from Brussels *


----------



## noushka05

Looks like a no brainer for Scotland. Who could blame them if they break away? best of luck to them


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Looks like a no brainer for Scotland. Who could blame them if they break away? best of luck to them
> 
> View attachment 301113


Hear hear!


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Looks like a no brainer for Scotland. Who could blame them if they break away? best of luck to them
> 
> View attachment 301113


More headline (non factual nonsense) 

Just as a starter from the list - where does the "work till 80" come from?

FACT -

UK. For many years it was 65 for men and 60 for women, but it's increasing to 66 for both genders by 2020, to 67 by 2028 and will rise in line with life expectancy thereafter.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Have you seen the Sun's letters page for example


@KittenKong: Heavens no...have you? Tell me you haven't!


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> More headline (non factual nonsense)
> 
> Just as a starter from the list - where does the "work till 80" come from?
> 
> FACT -
> 
> UK. For many years it was 65 for men and 60 for women, but it's increasing to 66 for both genders by 2020, to 67 by 2028 and will rise in line with life expectancy thereafter.


That's correct at the present time. However, post Brexit, we don't know if it will increase further to compensate for a staffing crisis etc. Like Brexit itself everything is up in the air at the moment.


Calvine said:


> @KittenKong: Heavens no...have you?


Yes! 'Fraid so. They're often beyond belief as you can imagine, like the paper itself.


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles said:


> More headline (non factual nonsense)
> 
> Just as a starter from the list - where does the "work till 80" come from?
> 
> FACT -
> 
> UK. For many years it was 65 for men and 60 for women, but it's increasing to 66 for both genders by 2020, to 67 by 2028 and will rise in line with life expectancy thereafter.


When the pension was first introduced to 70 year olds in 1908, the life expectancy was 47

When it went to 65 in 1925 life expectancy was then 63

By 1995 when they decided to raise womens pension ages it was 76

Now with the pension age for even us oldies set at 66,67 or 68 life expectancy is 80

It's easy to see that something has to happen


----------



## samuelsmiles

I'll just be happy to make it to 80. 

eta. When the pension age does become 80 in about 75 years time that will be because of demographics. I think pinning this one on Brexit will be stretching it a bit. (again)


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> Looks like a no brainer for Scotland. Who could blame them if they break away? best of luck to them
> 
> View attachment 301113


Most of those things on that image, if not all, are simply false or based on guesswork.

Come on @noushka05 you can do better than that!


----------



## Guest

rottiepointerhouse said:


> There was plenty of speculation on both sides from what I remember.


Yes, and speculations will continue a long time, like this thread... Pity there was not much real information about the alternative plans what will happen after Brexit. And now the nation is spending most the time and money on trying to create some plan how to leave EU instead of solving the original problems.

To me that looks like bad deal, and if I were you I´d be so angry at the utter incompetence of British polititians for letting this happen. At least you´d deserved more information and time to understand the consequences instead of these endless speculations.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

MrsZee said:


> Yes, and speculations will continue a long time, like this thread... Pity there was not much real information about the alternative plans what will happen after Brexit. And now the nation is spending most the time and money on trying to create some plan how to leave EU instead of solving the original problems.
> 
> To me that looks like bad deal, and if I were you I´d be so angry at the utter incompetence of British polititians for letting this happen. At least you´d deserved more information and time to understand the consequences instead of these endless speculations.


Of course there will be speculation - not sure how you can avoid that given that we haven't entered into the negotiations yet. I think Cameron did try to solve some of the original problems that many voters had with the EU but he didn't get the deal that people wanted - perhaps if the EU had been more flexible then and understanding of the strength of feeling against our continued membership they might have prevented it getting to this situation where voters felt they had to vote to leave. So no I'm not angry at British politicians anymore than I am angry at EU politicians. Time will tell and I can only say that at ground level within the business community we deal with there is no panic and constant speculation. We are just getting on with life and getting on with business and will see what the negotiation team comes up with


----------



## Zaros

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Time will tell and *I can only say that there is no panic.* We are just getting on with life


Perhaps this is the appropriate opportunity to remind you of this momentous occasion.......


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> Perhaps this is the appropriate opportunity to remind you of this momentous occasion.......


Yes quite.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/30/newsid_3115000/3115476.stm

"But the Conservative leader has always expressed his desire to find a peaceful solution to the Fuehrer's wish to create a new - and enlarged - German homeland in Europe."


----------



## Zaros

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes quite.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/30/newsid_3115000/3115476.stm
> 
> "But the Conservative leader has always expressed his desire to find a peaceful solution to the Fuehrer's wish to create a new - and enlarged - German homeland in Europe."


Aye!

The best laid plans of Mice and Men eh.:Facepalm

http://www.heart.co.uk/news/uk-worl...in-trump-and-brexit-worl/#7meUlDzBiyxf5Ooj.97


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> Aye!
> 
> The best laid plans of Mice and Men eh.:Facepalm
> 
> http://www.heart.co.uk/news/uk-worl...in-trump-and-brexit-worl/#7meUlDzBiyxf5Ooj.97


I think politicians who ignore the concerns of the general population regarding immigration run more of a risk of sleepwalking us into another world war because it forces the huge swell of "middle ground" voters to move further to the right.


----------



## Zaros

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think politicians who ignore the concerns of the general population regarding immigration run more of a risk of sleepwalking us into another world war because it forces the huge swell of "middle ground" voters to move further to the right.


I'm afraid I disagree with you.

Politicians hide the failures of their personal power games and apportion the blame of those failures on such issues as 'immigration'.
Russia has applied the similar ideology and look at the shameful results. Wars, misery and crippling poverty for the ordinary people, but at least those running the show had a scapegoat to excuse their tyranny

Is this the path Britain really wants to take?
Because if it is, then soon there will be a multitude of people forced to wear armbands bearing peculiar embroidered symbols identifying their numbers, camps for them to exist, and, eventually, final solutions because the problems never really went away.
It's deeply disturbing that some take it so lightly, as if the death of millions in WWII would not matter, or serve as a warning to future generations.


----------



## Bisbow

Zaros said:


> I'm afraid I disagree with
> 
> Is this the path Britain really wants to take?
> Because if it is, then soon there will be a multitude of people forced to wear armbands bearing peculiar embroidered symbols identifying their numbers, camps for them to exist, and, eventually, final solutions because the problems never really went away.
> It's deeply disturbing that some take it so lightly, as if the death of millions in WWII would not matter, or serve as a warning to future generations.


Well, if they gave out awards for scaremongering that one would certainly win the oscar


----------



## Zaros

Bisbow said:


> Well, if they gave out awards for scaremongering that one would certainly win the oscar


You really think so?

My patience tends to get drawn on by all these accusations that immigrants are the source of all society's evil. They steal jobs and are an unnecessary drain on resources .

_'The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew'_ Adlof Hitler.

And you think I'm scaremongering.

Not only have I experienced it personally, but have often had occasion, in England, to defend my Polish, Czech and Russian work colleagues from those indoctrinated with this bullsh1t and propaganda .

For the record, my colleagues, 'Other Nationals' (Immigrant has become such a dirty word these days) had accepted jobs that lazy English people refused to do even after paid trials. Yet these same bone idle (there's easier ways of earning beer tokens) individuals were quite prepared to tell my hardworking 'Other Nationals' colleagues to [email protected]@k off back home whenever they saw them out and about.

If ever there was a bigger a drain on resources then it's caused by ALL those poisonous, parasitic and cancerous little politicians who sit and preside over the quality of life of ordinary people.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> I'm afraid I disagree with you.
> 
> Politicians hide the failures of their personal power games and apportion the blame of those failures on such issues as 'immigration'.
> Russia has applied the similar ideology and look at the shameful results. Wars, misery and crippling poverty for the ordinary people, but at least those running the show had a scapegoat to excuse their tyranny
> 
> Is this the path Britain really wants to take?
> Because if it is, then soon there will be a multitude of people forced to wear armbands bearing peculiar embroidered symbols identifying their numbers, camps for them to exist, and, eventually, final solutions because the problems never really went away.
> It's deeply disturbing that some take it so lightly, as if the death of millions in WWII would not matter, or serve as a warning to future generations.


I'm not sure I understand what you are implying here @Zaros. My post which you have quoted said that politicians ignoring people's concerns about immigration (such as the famous incident when a labour party member asked Gordon Brown about immigration when he was campaigning for the 2010 election and he called her a bigot) pushes those from the middle ground (who usually stop those from the extreme right or the extreme left holding much power) towards the right as is increasingly being seen across Europe. It does not suggest in any way that immigrants are being blamed for anything. I don't believe anyone is suggesting Britain wants to see wars, misery or crippling poverty for ordinary people, just that the majority of its citizens no longer wish to be part of the EU. The people who voted to leave the EU did so for a multitude of reasons, for some immigration featured high on the list but for others it didn't. Who has taken the death of millions in WW11 lightly? Did not the people of Britain stand up against Hitler and his armbands and camps? Nobody is suggesting persecution and symbols for immigrants, some are simply expressing concern about a small island with limited resources already stretched to breaking point taking more and more immigrants whether from the EU or further afield. To stifle those concerns by playing the Nazi/Hitler card is a dangerous road to go down.

Incidentally this line from your reply to @Bisbow could easily have been Adolf Hitler speaking from his book Mein Kampf talking about his viewpoint on politicians which is why he wanted to run his own political party, for the good of his people

"If ever there was a bigger a drain on resources then it's caused by ALL those poisonous, parasitic and cancerous little politicians who sit and preside over the quality of life of ordinary people."


----------



## cheekyscrip

In meanwhile:























Unfortunately if Brexit will be a flop...which is most likely scenario the scum called politicians will quickly point to any "immigrants" telling " the people" that the country is still not free of them and until it is, then Brexit is not complete.
" The people" then will do the rest.
Immigrants are never " the people".

"Divide and rule"...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> In meanwhile:
> View attachment 301149


Meanwhile those of us that shop at Aldi save half if not more money than when shopping at Tescos, Morrison's, Waitrose, Sainsburys, Asda, Iceland etc.

Aldi's prices are lower than all of the high street supermarkets. Shopping bill from Tescos £55 for one week shopping from Aldi £20.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Meanwhile those of us that shop at Aldi save half if not more money than when shopping at Tescos, Morrison's, Waitrose, Sainsburys, Asda, Iceland etc.


How unpatriotic! Aldi is German!!! So disappointed...

Funny, seems if you read papers I mentioned before...foreign giant corps are getting their grubby hands on traditional British brands...as a result of Brexit...
So who #takes control?

Obviously, blame the Romanians ...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> How unpatriotic! Aldi is German!!! So disappointed...


So...
Tescos food has gone right down hill along with Asda, Sainsburys can't speak for Morrison's and Waitrose as they are the most expensive.

Aldi food is alot nicer and there food isn't just German, they source there meat from Ashfield Farms UK and fresh vegetables from across the UK etc.

Tescos and the other supermarkets source there meat and fresh vegetables from abroad Aldi doesn't (Aldi sources these from the UK) 

Meet the UK suppliers: https://www.aldi.co.uk/grocery/meet-our-suppliers


----------



## Zaros

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you are implying here @Zaros. My post which you have quoted said that politicians ignoring people's concerns about immigration (such as the famous incident when a labour party member asked Gordon Brown about immigration when he was campaigning for the 2010 election and he called her a bigot) pushes those from the middle ground (who usually stop those from the extreme right or the extreme left holding much power) towards the right as is increasingly being seen across Europe. It does not suggest in any way that immigrants are being blamed for anything. I don't believe anyone is suggesting Britain wants to see wars, misery or crippling poverty for ordinary people, just that the majority of its citizens no longer wish to be part of the EU. The people who voted to leave the EU did so for a multitude of reasons, for some immigration featured high on the list but for others it didn't. Who has taken the death of millions in WW11 lightly? Did not the people of Britain stand up against Hitler and his armbands and camps? Nobody is suggesting persecution and symbols for immigrants, some are simply expressing concern about a small island with limited resources already stretched to breaking point taking more and more immigrants whether from the EU or further afield. To stifle those concerns by playing the Nazi/Hitler card is a dangerous road to go down.
> 
> Incidentally this line from your reply to @Bisbow could easily have been Adolf Hitler speaking from his book Mein Kampf talking about his viewpoint on politicians which is why he wanted to run his own political party, for the good of his people
> 
> "If ever there was a bigger a drain on resources then it's caused by ALL those poisonous, parasitic and cancerous little politicians who sit and preside over the quality of life of ordinary people."


We may now be sleepwalking our way towards a world war,* according to a highly respected economic historian. *Harold James of Princeton University says the election of Donald Trump and the result of last year's *EU referendum suggest the world's appetite for globalisation is collapsing* something that *often prefigures more conflict.
*
In an interview with Sky News, Prof James said that countries had become locked in an information arms race similar to one that began in the years preceding World War One. *"I think [a world war] is absolutely a serious threat," he said. "*In that sense I think the aftermath of 1907 is as interesting as the 1930s. "Because after 1907 the foreign ministries, defence ministries, intelligence agencies started to operationalise information - to think that* information was essential to the control of military events - *and there was a kind of *arms race in terms of communications control. "And we're seeing that kind of arms race at the moment I think."
*
In the wake of the financial crisis in 2008, Prof James *warned of the potential for a sharp swing in public opinion away from open markets, borders and trade and towards protectionism, as happened in the 1930s and on previous occasions.
*
He said that the election of Mr Trump, who has pledged to raise tariffs and, if necessary, fight a trade war, suggested that was now taking place. "We're swinging back again from an era when everyone thought globalisation was inevitable, to a period when people think there's really a big problem with globalisation," he said. "*And more and more governments, but also political movements, commentators, people on the street are thinking that globalisation just isn't working.*

*"I think the movement at the moment is particularly aimed against migration."
*
Unfortunately, I'm not the only one who appears to be in accordance with the above and if derision is forthcoming so be it.

However, you claim it's dangerous to play the Hitler/Nazi card.

I'm not playing with it.

Surely it's even more dangerous not to talk about or consider that period in time at all?
*
*


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think politicians who ignore the concerns of the general population regarding immigration run more of a risk of sleepwalking us into another world war because it forces the huge swell of "middle ground" voters to move further to the right.


Yes, immigrants are unpopular with many, but don't you think they're been made a scapegoat?

How many immigrants were in the UK and Europe as a whole during the Great Depression for example?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny, seems if you read papers I mentioned before...foreign giant corps are getting their grubby hands on traditional British brands...as a result of Brexit...
> So who #takes control?
> 
> Obviously, blame the Romanians ...


:Yawn


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> We may now be sleepwalking our way towards a world war,* according to a highly respected economic historian. *Harold James of Princeton University says the election of Donald Trump and the result of last year's *EU referendum suggest the world's appetite for globalisation is collapsing* something that *often prefigures more conflict.
> *
> In an interview with Sky News, Prof James said that countries had become locked in an information arms race similar to one that began in the years preceding World War One. *"I think [a world war] is absolutely a serious threat," he said. "*In that sense I think the aftermath of 1907 is as interesting as the 1930s. "Because after 1907 the foreign ministries, defence ministries, intelligence agencies started to operationalise information - to think that* information was essential to the control of military events - *and there was a kind of *arms race in terms of communications control. "And we're seeing that kind of arms race at the moment I think."
> *
> In the wake of the financial crisis in 2008, Prof James *warned of the potential for a sharp swing in public opinion away from open markets, borders and trade and towards protectionism, as happened in the 1930s and on previous occasions.
> *
> He said that the election of Mr Trump, who has pledged to raise tariffs and, if necessary, fight a trade war, suggested that was now taking place. "We're swinging back again from an era when everyone thought globalisation was inevitable, to a period when people think there's really a big problem with globalisation," he said. "*And more and more governments, but also political movements, commentators, people on the street are thinking that globalisation just isn't working.*
> 
> *"I think the movement at the moment is particularly aimed against migration."
> *
> Unfortunately, I'm not the only one who appears to be in accordance with the above and if derision is forthcoming so be it.
> 
> However, you claim it's dangerous to play the Hitler/Nazi card.
> 
> I'm not playing with it.
> 
> Surely it's even more dangerous not to talk about or consider that period in time at all?


I read the article when you linked to it so I understand what he is saying but I think the "don't dare voice concerns about immigration" attitude is just as likely to sleepwalk us into a war. Which is more dangerous? In my opinion neither, they are both equally dangerous, to stifle discussion about immigration concerns is just as dangerous as to stifle discussion about Hitler.



KittenKong said:


> Yes, immigrants are unpopular with many, but don't you think they're been made a scapegoat?
> 
> How many immigrants were in the UK and Europe as a whole during the Great Depression for example?


No I don't and you are putting words into my mouth. I did not say immigrants are unpopular with many - I said politicians who ignore the concerns about immigration run more risk of sleepwalking us into a war. That does not mean scapegoating immigrants, it does not mean immigrants are unpopular - you are trying to stir up an issue that is not there. Concern about the numbers of immigrants coming to a small island with limited resources that are already at breaking point is not the same as saying you don't like immigrants and you blame them for everything 

You are actually making this a hate issue when it simply isn't - its a practical issue.


----------



## Zaros

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I read the article when you linked to it so I understand what he is saying but I think the "don't dare voice concerns about immigration" attitude is just as likely to sleepwalk us into a war. Which is more dangerous? In my opinion neither, they are both equally dangerous, to stifle discussion about immigration concerns is just as dangerous as to stifle discussion about Hitler.
> 
> No I don't and you are putting words into my mouth. I did not say immigrants are unpopular with many - I said politicians who ignore the concerns about immigration run more risk of sleepwalking us into a war. That does not mean scapegoating immigrants, it does not mean immigrants are unpopular - you are trying to stir up an issue that is not there. Concern about the numbers of immigrants coming to a small island with limited resources that are already at breaking point is not the same as saying you don't like immigrants and you blame them for everything


And who, I wonder, is responsible for planting the idea of an immigration problem into the minds of the people to begin with?

Who is to be held accountable for the manufacture of so many 'Other Nationals' or 'Immigrants' as so many prefer to call them?


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Obviously, blame the Romanians ...


Don't you start!

I know two Romanians, living in England, who are 'Salt Of The Earth' types. Honest as the day is long.

Romanians, apparently, are the scourge here too. They came all the way to an isolated house to break into my garage and throw what they couldn't steal into the surrounding forests.....Well that was the story according to the Police who, incidentally, didn't even turn up to investigate.:Banghead

Funny how we discovered who the real culprits were.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> And who, I wonder, is responsible for planting the idea of an immigration problem into the minds of the people to begin with?
> 
> Who is to be held accountable for the manufacture of so many 'Other Nationals' or 'Immigrants' as so many prefer to call them?


Guess?
View attachment 301157


And who do you think has both hands in trying to split EU?
And USA
And NATO?

What amazes me that " people" miss The Big Picture.

Which is simple : North America in alliance with West Europe and the rest of EU managed to keep Muddle East sweet and oil prices stable. Quite low.
Russia after sanctions was hemorrhaging money.
If they manage to split that alliance and get influence over OPEC and get oil up....

I have nothing against Russians as people.
But that country is run by corruption and fear. All significant opposition are killed or arrested under false charges.
Ir is real. Low pound and high oil prices might be a lethal combination.

Nationalism led to many wars ..

So easily exploited.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Guess?
> View attachment 301157
> 
> 
> And who do you think has both hands in trying to split EU?
> And USA
> And NATO?
> 
> What amazes me that " people" miss The Big Picture.
> 
> Which is simple : North America in alliance with West Europe and the rest of EU managed to keep Muddle East sweet and oil prices stable. Quite low.
> Russia after sanctions was hemorrhaging money.
> If they manage to split that alliance and get influence over OPEC and get oil up....
> 
> I have nothing against Russians as people.
> But that country is run by corruption and fear. All significant opposition are killed or arrested under false charges.
> Ir is real. Low pound and high oil prices might be a lethal combination.
> 
> Nationalism led to many wars ..
> 
> So easily exploited.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 301161


That is not difficult to grasp.
If you lived next door the Russia.
Remember: Empires rise and fall.
Russia does not play by the rules. All means to win.

Hundred or so mega rich families rule over there. Their financial power is at stake.

Ot is really all about money and power.
Putin is a loudspeaker for them and very clever man.

His daughter married into on of the richest families.

So called " people" are fed government pap.

Our papers like The Times wrote many times about those connections between British business groups - Tory donors and their frequent visits , anyhow " The Economist" also says a lot...
Politicians are sponsored by party donors.
In Britain, in Russia, in America...
Just follow the money...


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> And who, I wonder, is responsible for planting the idea of an immigration problem into the minds of the people to begin with?
> 
> Who is to be held accountable for the manufacture of so many 'Other Nationals' or 'Immigrants' as so many prefer to call them?


Why does the idea need to have been planted by anyone? perhaps people decide based on their own experiences in the places where they live?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Interesting interview with Sadiq Khan right now on ITV1.
London will inevitably lose out jobs post Brexit.
London generated 25% of our money.
If that shrinks....
They cannot carry on without access to single market. Simples.
.
People, especially those with family to feed, did not vote to be poorer.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Yes, immigrants are unpopular with many, but don't you think they're been made a scapegoat?
> 
> How many immigrants were in the UK and Europe as a whole during the Great Depression for example?





rottiepointerhouse said:


> No I don't and you are putting words into my mouth. I did not say immigrants are unpopular with many - I said politicians who ignore the concerns about immigration run more risk of sleepwalking us into a war. That does not mean scapegoating immigrants, it does not mean immigrants are unpopular - you are trying to stir up an issue that is not there. Concern about the numbers of immigrants coming to a small island with limited resources that are already at breaking point is not the same as saying you don't like immigrants and you blame them for everything
> 
> You are actually making this a hate issue when it simply isn't - its a practical issue.


Sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree. I thought you were right actually when you said some were looking towards far right groups due to concerns about immigration, having felt ignored by mainstream politics.

As you can see from my reply at no time did I suggest this was your own viewpoint, which is your business, or putting words in to your mouth as you put it.

I said immigration has been unpopular with much of the public for years, Enoch Powell's "Rivers of blood" speech brought what a lot of the public were feeling to the surface. Then there was the National Front. BNP and others. UKIP are the 21st Century equivalent bleating out the same anti immigration message.

My comment to your post concerned the viewpoint of many. I just asked if immigrants are being made the scapegoat for unemployment, shortage of housing and terrorism?

I simply commented in the days of the great depression they were very few immigrants in the UK and Europe.

The anti immigrant message doesn't wash with me therefore.

Whatever you thought, I certainly wasn't putting words in to your mouth.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15...cotland_in_the_single_market__says_EU_report/


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> http://www.thenational.scot/news/15...cotland_in_the_single_market__says_EU_report/
> 
> View attachment 301167
> View attachment 301168


I hope it's true, a smack in the face for TM and her cronies


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> I have nothing against Russians as people.
> 
> But that country is run by corruption and fear.
> 
> All significant opposition are killed or arrested under false charges.


I have nothing against the Russian people either Scrippy, or the British people, or the American people, or the Chinese people so on and so forth.....ad infinitum. Yet there are those who might want to influence you into believing otherwise.

To quote the late Leonard Cohen;

_*'*love the country but I can't stand the scene
And I'm neither left or right' _'Democracy'

The sharp practices of the rich and the powerful are without bounds. 1947 a series of National Security Council directives outlined the paramount aim of America's foreign policy as 'A world substantially made over in America's own image'
And any and all opposition to this ideology should be converted, subverted, bribed, smeared or...........disposed of.
In other words, Americanize or else.

It's difficult to read many of the comments and not feel frustrated or saddened. because the real point seems to have been completely overlooked. We, the ordinary people have to stop squabbling over what amounts to the subterfuge deliberately imposed upon us by the powers that insist to be. Those who would keep us under their rule by any means at their disposal. The realisation of the sickening extremes they will venture to achieve their ends is what should be drawing us together, not driving us apart.
What on this earth will stop us sparring and get on with the real business of finally ridding ourselves of the megalomaniacs who are slowly destroying this world by stripping it of everything good and decent.


----------



## KittenKong

Zaros said:


> And who, I wonder, is responsible for planting the idea of an immigration problem into the minds of the people to begin with?
> 
> Who is to be held accountable for the manufacture of so many 'Other Nationals' or 'Immigrants' as so many prefer to call them?


I've always been amused at how people from overseas are know by the "negative" term, "immigrants" where UK citizens who live overseas are known by a more positive term, "ex pats". What's the difference?

UK citizens have as much right to live abroad as EU citizens have the right to live in the UK.


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> I've always been amused at how people from overseas are know by the "negative" term, "immigrants" where UK citizens who live overseas are known by a more positive term, "ex pats". What's the difference?
> 
> UK citizens have as much right to live abroad as EU citizens have the right to live in the UK.


It's a real conundrum isn't it.

However, in an attempt to ease your frustrations, I'm both. 

I'm an immigrant to the people here but am considered an expatriate to you people in my home country over there. :Smug


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I simply commented in the days of the great depression they were very few immigrants in the UK and Europe.


That was a economic depression bought on by a collapse in the US stock market crash and was more to do with exports and borrowing.............nothing to do with lack of infrastructure. We had just finished a world war of course..................



KittenKong said:


> I've always been amused at how people from overseas are know by the "negative" term, "immigrants" where UK citizens who live overseas are known by a more positive term, "ex pats".


How do you shorten immigrants? Migrant I suppose, does that seem better?

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/immigrant
Both terms are descriptive. Not derogatory
Expats for expatriate meaning, definition, what is expatriate: someone who does not live in their own country:

immigrant meaning, definition, what is immigrant: a person who has come to a different country in order to live there permanently: .


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> How do you shorten immigrants?
> 
> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/immigrant
> Both terms are descriptive. Not derogatory
> Expats for expatriate meaning, definition, what is expatriate: someone who does not live in their own country:
> 
> immigrant meaning, definition, what is immigrant: a person who has come to a different country in order to live there permanently: .


That is very true. Personally I prefer to call UK citizens who live abroad, "immigrants" rather than, "ex pats". I don't use that term in a negative sense personally.

However, the terms, "immigrants" and "immigration" have been used negatively by anti immigration parties and by many people who believe they're a burden on society.

The EU leave campaign was a classic example, especially from Farage and Johnson who had similar xenophobic campaigns.

Johnson at the last minute said he loved immigrants and would seek to offer amnesty to illegal immigrants already in the UK. Quite bizarre I thought....


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Personally I prefer to call UK citizens who live abroad, "immigrants" rather than, "ex pats". I don't use that term in a negative sense personally.


But to us they aren't immigrants they are expats.......I'm sure Spain etc. calls them immigrants because they are in their country



KittenKong said:


> However, the terms, "immigrants" and "immigration" have been used negatively by anti immigration parties and by many people who believe they're a burden on society.


What other descriptive word should they have used to describe migrants from a large selection of countries?


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> How do you shorten immigrants? Migrant I suppose, does that seem better?
> Both terms are descriptive. Not derogatory


But because of what the word 'immigrant' represents and signifies today, it is considered derogatory by *'Other Nationals'* and I myself find the term both embarrassing and awkward because as an 'immigrant' I'm automatically viewed by the many as 'Untrustworthy and Unprincipled'


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> The EU leave campaign was a classic example, especially from Farage and Johnson who had similar xenophobic campaigns.


And the referendum itself was the peoples anger management tool.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> And the referendum itself was the peoples anger management tool.


Oh, it was much more... Now they can officially claim turning Britain into tax haven.
Hello dirty money from human trafficking, drugs, arms, you name it...
Britain was 9th in laundering dirty dosh, in EU fell into 15th, but it is the most profitable business in the world...
Who is first?
Officially USA. ( impossible to account China or Russia)...

Corporate tax to be slashed.
That will be fantastic for the budget. .NHS ....

What a laugh to persuade" the people" to support the moguls in getting richer and more powerful.
#take control ...

Labour leader actually forcing it.
Even Tories had more freedom of vote!!!


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh, it was much more... Now they can officially claim turning Britain into tax haven.
> Hello dirty money from human trafficking, drugs, arms, you name it...
> Britain was 9th in laundering dirty dosh, in EU fell into 15th, but it is the most profitable business in the world...
> Who is first?
> Officially USA. ( impossible to account China or Russia)...
> 
> Corporate tax to be slashed.
> That will be fantastic for the budget. .NHS ....
> 
> What a laugh to persuade" the people" to support the moguls in getting richer and more powerful.
> #take control ...
> 
> Labour leader actually forcing it.
> Even Tories had more freedom of vote!!!


There's an increasing number of Russian Billionaires in Britain too Scrippy.

Ever wondered why?

Because there's next to phuq all to spend their money on in Mother Russia.

Incidentally, and for the record, just like many other expatriates, I never got to vote in the referendum either because of so called 'administrative errors'
The whole show has been a sham from start to.....well..I'm not all that sure where the finish line is yet?:Smuggrin


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I've always been amused at how people from overseas are know by the "negative" term, "immigrants" where UK citizens who live overseas are known by a more positive term, "ex pats". What's the difference?


Immigrants are people coming to live in our country.
Emmigrants are people from this country going to live abroad thus emigrating.
Migrants cover both of the above .
Ex -pat is short for expatriates meaning those that live abroad , it's mainly used when employers send their work force abroad but now seems to cover retirees abroad.

Criminals are expatriated back to their native countries for trial , prisoners of war were expatriated back to their homeland after WW2 so not necessarily a "positive" term.


----------



## rona

Zaros said:


> But because of what the word 'immigrant' represents and signifies today, it is considered derogatory by *'Other Nationals'* and I myself find the term both embarrassing and awkward because as an 'immigrant' I'm automatically viewed by the many as 'Untrustworthy and Unprincipled'


So what's the alternative?

Just seems like PC gone mad


----------



## rona

I've used the word for the whole of my life with no bad connotation, if it's been interpreted by others as a derogatory term, does that mean I do too?

It's just preposterous to label all who used the word as prejudiced or right wing

I have a sister who uses the word as a derogatory term and I can still use it to counter her claims. Go figure................


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> So what's the alternative?
> 
> Just seems like PC gone mad


It's right there before your eyes. * 'Other Nationals' *It's a term I've always corrected people with when they've carelessly spat the word 'Immigrant' .from their lips

But then, with a little political jiggery-pokery and relentless media manipulation the term would soon become corrupted and then we'd be right back at square one again.:Facepalm

PC eradicated the word ****** from everyday useage.


----------



## rona

Zaros said:


> Other Nationals


That's a sports term isn't it? It would mean nothing, very confusing in the middle of a conversation

I suppose foreign nationals wouldn't suit the PC brigade either?


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Immigrants are people coming to live in our country.
> Emmigrants are people from this country going to live abroad thus emigrating.


Totally correct, @kimthecat . You are an _emigrant_ from your own country and an _immigrant_ into another; but these days you can hardly open your mouth without someone getting upset or taking offence. It's bonkers.


----------



## Zaros

....


rona said:


> That's a sports term isn't it? It would mean nothing, very confusing in the middle of a conversation
> 
> I suppose foreign nationals wouldn't suit the PC brigade either?


I'm not a member of the PC brigade Rona. Neither am I a hater of Britain or America or an admirer of Hitler.

You mean confusing like the Windscale/Sellafield conundrum?

Language and our understanding of it is constantly changing.


----------



## rona

Zaros said:


> ....
> 
> I'm not a member of the PC brigade Rona. Neither am I a hater of Britain or America or an admirer of Hitler.
> 
> You mean confusing like the Windscale/Sellafield conundrum?
> 
> Language and our understanding of it is constantly changing.


You do make rather OTT statements


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> You do make rather OTT statements


Yet more derision.

How juvenile.

I can clearly see that there's little to no respect what so ever for those who see things differently from the herd.

Mindsets such as yours Rona are no different to those who influence themselves into firmly believing they can still refer to the black as a'******'


----------



## Satori




----------



## Zaros

Calvine said:


> Totally correct, @kimthecat these days you can hardly open your mouth without someone getting upset or taking offence. It's bonkers.


It's not _'Bonkers' Did you read selectively?_



Zaros said:


> But because of what the word 'immigrant' represents and signifies today, it is considered derogatory by *'Other Nationals'* and I myself find the term both embarrassing and awkward because *as an 'immigrant' I'm automatically viewed by the many as 'Untrustworthy and Unprincipled*'


And this is the image politicians and the media have impressed upon people.

Of course, if you're all dismissing personal experience as complete and utter nonsense....well, there's little point in me contributing to this thread.

Is there.


----------



## Calvine

Zaros said:


> _Did you read selectively?_


@Zaros: I always try to, so _stop being so bloody patronising_. I maybe don't have as much time as many PF members to trawl thro' and scrutinise every single post. As I said,I think it is bonkers, crackers, gaga, crazy, insane and unacceptably raving mad. But you no doubt have your opinions...that is what a forum is about. So don't give me your (unwanted) advice on how I should read. Many thanks.


----------



## Zaros

Calvine said:


> @Zaros: I always try to, so _stop being so bloody patronising_. I maybe don't have as much time as many PF members to trawl thro' and scrutinise every single post. As I said,I think it is bonkers, crackers, gaga, crazy, insane and unacceptably raving mad. But you no doubt have your opinions...that is what a forum is about. So don't give me your (unwanted) advice on how I should read. Many thanks.


For some inexplicable reason you appear tense.

._Our greatest weapon against stress is our ability to choose one thought over another. _William James. 1842 - 1910

However, Odd isn't it how 'Brexiteers' think the referendum was fair and just, when in actual fact, there are many, including myself, who were denied the opportunity to cast their vote.
It would seem that my earlier post on this tedious little detail has either been overlooked or deliberately ignored.

Kinda makes the outcome look little on the rigged side doesn't it.


----------



## Calvine

Zaros said:


> you appear tense.


Not one bit, and certainly not as tense as you always seem to be. What strange comments you make.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Totally correct, @kimthecat . You are an _emigrant_ from your own country and an _immigrant_ into another; but these days you can hardly open your mouth without someone getting upset or taking offence. It's bonkers.


While the term "immigrant" or "immigration" is not intended to be derogatory it has become so due to much negativity concerning people born in other countries.

For that, I blame the far right and the media for this, not the PC brigade.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> Yet more derision.
> 
> How juvenile.
> 
> I can clearly see that there's little to no respect what so ever for those who see things differently from the herd.
> 
> Mindsets such as yours Rona are no different to those who influence themselves into firmly believing they can still refer to the black as a'******'


The herd on these threads tends to be remain voters and I certainly feel like I'm swimming against the tide of opinion on this forum at least and that daring to risk an opinion on "immigrants" is likely to result in replies inferring if not outright calling you a racist, a bigot or a nazi lover. I don't know a single person who is concerned about immigration who is racist or calls black people by the name you are alluding to. Of course there are racist thugs out there such as the NF but they are not usually found lurking on pet forums.


----------



## Zaros

Calvine said:


> Not one bit, and certainly not as tense as you always seem to be. What strange comments you make.


Might I just remind you;

_'We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.'_..........Abraham Lincoln 1809 - 1865


----------



## samuelsmiles

Zaros said:


> Might I just remind you;
> 
> _'*We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies*. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.'_..........Abraham Lincoln 1809 - 1865


_"Does that apply to the Tory scum and the Filth?".....SamuelSmiles 1964- 20** _


----------



## MilleD

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The herd on these threads tends to be remain voters and I certainly feel like I'm swimming against the tide of opinion on this forum at least and that daring to risk an opinion on "immigrants" is likely to result in replies inferring if not outright calling you a racist, a bigot or a nazi lover. I don't know a single person who is concerned about immigration who is racist or calls black people by the name you are alluding to. Of course there are racist thugs out there such as the NF but they are not usually found lurking on pet forums.


That's exactly what I thought when I saw Zaros mention a 'herd'.


----------



## Zaros

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The herd on these threads tends to be remain voters and I certainly feel like I'm swimming against the tide of opinion on this forum at least and that daring to risk an opinion on "immigrants" is likely to result in replies inferring if not outright calling you a racist, a bigot or a nazi lover. I don't know a single person who is concerned about immigration who is racist or calls black people by the name you are alluding to. Of course there are racist thugs out there such as the NF but they are not usually found lurking on pet forums.


Well I'm neither a 'Yay' or a 'Nay' so a bit of an outsider/outcast really.
I do, however, have family and friends scattered far and wide across this troubled little planet of ours and I endlessly concern myself for their future welfare because of some of the regions they are forced to live.
It just seems totally inconceivable to me how a minuscule group of madmen hold sway over such large numbers but do realise they maintain such positions through force, fear and fraud.



samuelsmiles said:


> _"Does that apply to the Tory scum and the Filth?".....SamuelSmiles 1964- 20** _


It applies to the ordinary people. It is only the politician and their ideals who makes us enemies.


----------



## Calvine

Zaros said:


> ._Our greatest weapon against stress is our ability to choose one thought over another. _William James. 1842 - 1910


Any reason for this pointless quote? No-one is tense except possibly you. I simply explained to you that I do not want or need you or anyone else to tell me what or how to read.


----------



## Calvine

Zaros said:


> Might I just remind you;
> 
> _'We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.'_..........Abraham Lincoln 1809 - 1865


No, please do not remind me...your quotes are wasted on me quite frankly.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> Any reason for this pointless quote? No-one is tense except possibly you. I simply explained to you that I do not want or need you or anyone else to tell me what or how to read.


People do not get it how artificial all frontiers and divisions really are.
That there is one world, one planet and all connected like dominoes or jenga blocks.

Being on an island does not change it.
Yes, I realise how many billionaires from Russia have powerful influence in UK.
Not only as visible as Abramowitch.

It would be very naive to think that only USA election was influenced or rigged.
Or coup in Turkey. Or foiled attempt in Montenegro.

Yes, funny things were happening with postal votes in referendum...

If you look really close on part donors supporting Brexit...who actually sponsored them?

Follow the money and answer is pretty obvious.

Who earned fortunes on Brexit and Trump?
It is not worth to mention even particular country as they are beyond that and can hold any chosen passport if needed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Who earned fortunes on Brexit and Trump?


Those that placed a bet on Trump winning and the leave vote winning the Referendum made some money.

Nobody has made a fortune on Brexit yet as it hasn't happened yet


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Those that placed a bet on Trump winning and the leave vote winning the Referendum.
> 
> Nobody has made a fortune on Brexit as it hasn't happened yet


Oh..you wrong. Ask @Satori ...
Very interesting things happened already...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh..you wrong. Ask @Satori ...


@Satori made some money from the referendum not Brexit, Brexit has not happened yet. We aren't even in the negotiations and have not left the EU yet.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> @Satori made some money from the referendum not Brexit, Brexit has not happened yet. We aren't even in the negotiations and have not left the EU yet.


But we are. Out of EU. Pound is cheap.
Takovers of gas grid , takeovers of traditional British brands. Britain deffo going global...
Sales time!


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh..you wrong. Ask @Satori ...
> Very interesting things happened already...


Fair point. However, I did say I made a 'small fortune', not a big one. Some people must have coined in big time though. Still can't complain..... Picked up my 911 on Friday. Xmas prezzie from the missus to spend some Brexit fx gains. Every time I pop into the garage just to look at it I can't help think 'thanks Nigel'!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Fair point. However, I did say I made a 'small fortune', not a big one. Some people must have coined in big time though. Still can't complain..... Picked up my 911 on Friday. Xmas prezzie from the missus to spend some Brexit fx gains. Every time I pop into the garage just to look at it I can't help think 'thanks Nigel'!


Can you sell me your Ecoboost then?
No more tiny Fords for you!!!
Say thank you to @stockwellcat and everybody else who were taken for a ride...
And so were you ...in your shiny 911.... ;-)


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Can you sell me your Ecoboost then?
> No more tiny Fords for you!!!
> Say thank you to @stockwellcat and everybody else who were taken for a ride...
> And so were you ...in your shiny 911.... ;-)


You're only jealous


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> People do not get it how artificial all frontiers and divisions really are.
> That there is one world, one planet and all connected like dominoes or jenga blocks.
> 
> Being on an island does not change it.
> Yes, I realise how many billionaires from Russia have powerful influence in UK.
> Not only as visible as Abramowitch.
> 
> It would be very naive to think that only USA election was influenced or rigged.
> Or coup in Turkey. Or foiled attempt in Montenegro.
> 
> Yes, funny things were happening with postal votes in referendum...
> 
> If you look really close on part donors supporting Brexit...who actually sponsored them?
> 
> Follow the money and answer is pretty obvious.
> 
> Who earned fortunes on Brexit and Trump?
> It is not worth to mention even particular country as they are beyond that and can hold any chosen passport if needed.


@cheekyscrip:I think you are missing the point of what I am trying to get thro' to Zaros...he/she is rather strangely telling me that I am ''tense''. He/she has no reason to think that. I am telling him/her that I do not agree with the comment made, and do not need his/her quotes to persuade me to agree. I cannot see how this involves you to be honest or why you have made this particular post. Not do I find the quotes made by Zaros to be relevant to anything I have posted.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> @cheekyscrip:I think you are missing the point of what I am trying to get thro' to Zaros...he/she is rather strangely telling me that I am ''tense''. He/she has no reason to think that. I am telling him/her that I do not agree with the comment made, and do not need his/her quotes to persuade me to agree. I cannot see how this involves you to be honest or why you have made this particular post. Not do I find the quotes made by Zaros to be relevant to anything I have posted.


Sorry, I made general comment, not directly referring to your or his, or anyone's posts ..
But thanks for answer nonetheless.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> More headline (non factual nonsense)
> 
> Just as a starter from the list - where does the "work till 80" come from?
> 
> FACT -
> 
> UK. For many years it was 65 for men and 60 for women, but it's increasing to 66 for both genders by 2020, to 67 by 2028 and will rise in line with life expectancy thereafter.





stuaz said:


> Most of those things on that image, if not all, are simply false or based on guesswork.
> 
> Come on @noushka05 you can do better than that!


Yet even without checking, I can see most of those points are indeed factual @samuelsmiles. The first few are obviously true. And Scotland is doing everything possible to protect its NHS from this governments sell off. Scotland now has the best performing NHS in the UK. According to experts the NHS is incompatible with brexit, so much safer they stay in the EU. So that point seems pretty accurate to me. The governments leaked document to the Times stated that protecting fisheries was 'medium priority'. (wonder how many fishermen were conned into voting leave?) When the government speak of 'deregulating the labour market'. What do you think they mean by that? Its your minimum wages, paid holidays, maternity rights, safety at work they're talking about "deregulating". It stands to reason we will become a more xenophobic, insular society outside the EU. We do waste billions on Trident. And since the tories took the helm they have managed to almost triple the national debt to £1.8 Trillion! - & it continues to spiral ! http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/ I think that cover many of the points 



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Of course there will be speculation - not sure how you can avoid that given that we haven't entered into the negotiations yet. I think Cameron did try to solve some of the original problems that many voters had with the EU but he didn't get the deal that people wanted - perhaps if the EU had been more flexible then and understanding of the strength of feeling against our continued membership they might have prevented it getting to this situation where voters felt they had to vote to leave. So no I'm not angry at British politicians anymore than I am angry at EU politicians. Time will tell and I can only say that at ground level within the business community we deal with there is no panic and constant speculation. We are just getting on with life and getting on with business and will see what the negotiation team comes up with


Camerons 'deal' was nothing more than a diversionary deal to appease the hard right extremists in his party. He should have told the truth about migrants instead of using them as scapegoats for his cruel policies. Evidence shows EU migrants net fiscal contributors to UK.
Glad to hear you're doing ok - but its the poorest who will suffer most - as per!



Zaros said:


> I'm afraid I disagree with you.
> 
> Politicians hide the failures of their personal power games and apportion the blame of those failures on such issues as 'immigration'.
> Russia has applied the similar ideology and look at the shameful results. Wars, misery and crippling poverty for the ordinary people, but at least those running the show had a scapegoat to excuse their tyranny
> 
> Is this the path Britain really wants to take?
> Because if it is, then soon there will be a multitude of people forced to wear armbands bearing peculiar embroidered symbols identifying their numbers, camps for them to exist, and, eventually, final solutions because the problems never really went away.
> It's deeply disturbing that some take it so lightly, as if the death of millions in WWII would not matter, or serve as a warning to future generations.


I'm sure the lovely Spellweaver pointed this out ages ago. Fascism is rearing its ugly head once again. And chillingly I've seen many on social media actually heralding its return. They are hoping the EU crumbles. Can you imagine that? Our forebears lost their lives fighting this evil, lets hope it wasn't in vain.



Zaros said:


> And who, I wonder, is responsible for planting the idea of an immigration problem into the minds of the people to begin with?
> 
> Who is to be held accountable for the manufacture of so many 'Other Nationals' or 'Immigrants' as so many prefer to call them?


Exactly! Ukip, the tories & their mates in the media have been drip feeding us anti immigrant propaganda for years. Using them as convenient scapegoat for the governments dreadful austerity policies. It amazes me how so many people have fallen for it, they seem to be incapable of joining the dots.


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> their mates





noushka05 said:


> drip feeding





noushka05 said:


> It amazes me how so many people have fallen for it, they seem to be incapable of joining the dots


Mmmmm..........seems familiar


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> We may now be sleepwalking our way towards a world war,* according to a highly respected economic historian. *Harold James of Princeton University says the election of Donald Trump and the result of last year's *EU referendum suggest the world's appetite for globalisation is collapsing* something that *often prefigures more conflict.
> *
> In an interview with Sky News, Prof James said that countries had become locked in an information arms race similar to one that began in the years preceding World War One. *"I think [a world war] is absolutely a serious threat," he said. "*In that sense I think the aftermath of 1907 is as interesting as the 1930s. "Because after 1907 the foreign ministries, defence ministries, intelligence agencies started to operationalise information - to think that* information was essential to the control of military events - *and there was a kind of *arms race in terms of communications control. "And we're seeing that kind of arms race at the moment I think."
> *
> In the wake of the financial crisis in 2008, Prof James *warned of the potential for a sharp swing in public opinion away from open markets, borders and trade and towards protectionism, as happened in the 1930s and on previous occasions.
> *
> He said that the election of Mr Trump, who has pledged to raise tariffs and, if necessary, fight a trade war, suggested that was now taking place. "We're swinging back again from an era when everyone thought globalisation was inevitable, to a period when people think there's really a big problem with globalisation," he said. "*And more and more governments, but also political movements, commentators, people on the street are thinking that globalisation just isn't working.*
> 
> *"I think the movement at the moment is particularly aimed against migration."
> *
> Unfortunately, I'm not the only one who appears to be in accordance with the above and if derision is forthcoming so be it.
> 
> However, you claim it's dangerous to play the Hitler/Nazi card.
> 
> I'm not playing with it.
> 
> Surely it's even more dangerous not to talk about or consider that period in time at all?


Another renowned historian ,Richard Evans, speaking in a similar vain.

_Yeah, it's spurning international agreements and organizations just as Hitler left the League of Nations in 1933. I think it's a dangerous moment for Britain, and I think it's a huge miscalculation to leave the European Union. The European Union needs to be strengthened, not weakened_.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 301326
> View attachment 301327
> View attachment 301328


Why should the UK allow permanent stay for European Residents over here when the EU are planning yes planning to deny right of stay to UK citizens in European countries during the Brexit negotiations.

Before I get backlash this is not a racist comment what-so-ever and is not intended to be in anyway.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Mmmmm..........seems familiar


'Immigrants' haven't stretched our resources to the limit, austerity is responsible for destroying our NHS & crippling public services. So as a tory supporter you are part of the problem - not those who come here from other countries.


----------



## noushka05

. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c622af46-f7af-11e6-a6f0-cb4e831c1cc0


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Wonder how many times has this propagandist rag been used on here to support the leave campaign?










Interesting, if unsurprising, study.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Interesting, if unsurprising, study.
> 
> View attachment 301336


 Perhaps you could attach a link to the above study. I'm sure you'll be asked for it .


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Perhaps you could attach a link to the above study. I'm sure you'll be asked for it .


Here you are 

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/study...il-strongly-favoured-brexit-in-eu-referendum/


----------



## kimthecat

The original study in PDF .

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/NatCen_Brexplanations-report-FINAL-WEB2.pdf


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> I'm sure the lovely Spellweaver pointed this out ages ago. Fascism is rearing its ugly head once again. And chillingly I've seen many on social media actually heralding its return. They are hoping the EU crumbles. Can you imagine that? Our forebears lost their lives fighting this evil, lets hope it wasn't in vain.
> 
> Ukip, the tories & their mates in the media have been drip feeding us anti immigrant propaganda for years. Using them as convenient scapegoat for the governments dreadful austerity policies. It amazes me how so many people have fallen for it, they seem to be incapable of joining the dots.





noushka05 said:


> Another renowned historian ,Richard Evans, speaking in a similar vain.
> 
> _Yeah, it's spurning international agreements and organizations just as Hitler left the League of Nations in 1933. I think it's a dangerous moment for Britain, and I think it's a huge miscalculation to leave the European Union. The European Union needs to be strengthened, not weakened_.


Noush', if it's anything to you
_
'People don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed'_. .....Friedrich Nietzsche.1844-1900

And you must always remember the profound and often prophetic words of Eric Arthur Blair or George Orwell to those well read.

_'Every age is basically the same. It is always a story in which a small elite group of greedy people claim to unjust power and privilege by practicing an ongoing deception upon their followers'......_George Orwell. 1903-1950


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> '*Immigrants' haven't stretched our resources to the limit, austerity is responsible for destroying our NHS & crippling public services. So as a tory supporter you are part of the problem* - not those who come here from other countries.


_
'People who elect corrupt politicians, imposters thieves and traitors are not victims...but accomplices.'....._George Orwell 1903 - 1950


----------



## Guest

Calvine said:


> No, please do not remind me...your quotes are wasted on me quite frankly.


I just thought this was funny, I calculated five times you quoted Zaros either directly or indirectly. So obviously they are not totally wasted on you. Sorry, couldn´t help pointing this out.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Zaros said:


> _'People who elect corrupt politicians, imposters thieves and traitors are not victims...but accomplices.'....._George Orwell 1903 - 1950


That would be everyone who has ever voted then.


----------



## Zaros

rottiepointerhouse said:


> That would be everyone who has ever voted then.


Yes, it would.

Unfortunately, you can't accuse me of being anyone's accomplice.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Noush', if it's anything to you
> _
> 'People don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed'_. .....Friedrich Nietzsche.1844-1900
> 
> And you must always remember the profound and often prophetic words of Eric Arthur Blair or George Orwell to those well read.
> 
> _'Every age is basically the same. It is always a story in which a small elite group of greedy people claim to unjust power and privilege by practicing an ongoing deception upon their followers'......_George Orwell. 1903-1950


I'm sure George Orwell could see into the future. (I don't know of Eric Arthur Blair Googling time! lol)












rottiepointerhouse said:


> That would be everyone who has ever voted then.


And some politicians are far more corrupt than others so often its a case of voting to try to keep the most toxic out!.

_"When you're not doing so well, vote for a better life for yourself. 
If you are doing quite nicely, vote for a better life for others" _Irvine Welsh


----------



## noushka05

rottiepointerhouse said:


> That would be everyone who has ever voted then.


And just to add not all politicians are self-serving. Caroline Lucas is a principled politician with real gravitas & integrity. If only more were like her.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> (I don't know of Eric Arthur Blair Googling time! lol)
> /


No, please don't


----------



## samuelsmiles

.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
_"If only more *were* like her. ..."_
_._
_._
_._


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> No, please don't


:Hilarious

Curiosity is my middle name

Cheers LFL

Oh I didn't realise that was his pseudonym


----------



## Calvine

MrsZee said:


> I just thought this was funny, I calculated five times you quoted Zaros either directly or indirectly. So obviously they are not totally wasted on you. Sorry, couldn´t help pointing this out.


I am talking about the quotes he/she is using to try (unsuccessfully) to impress ... William James...Abraham Lincoln et al. They have no relevance to anything and add totally nothing to the thread. I am glad you find it amusing tho'...if we can bring a little sunshine into someone's life, that is a very commendable thing. You obviously totally misunderstood my posts, as did Zaros who spends so much time quoting others that he/she seems to have no views of his/her own . Never mind, it happens. Of course I quote him/her if he/she suggests I am ''tense''. So would you. If I made similar suggestions about you or him/her, I am sure the two of you would feel justified in commenting. And the  is inappropriate as far as I can see.


----------



## noushka05

Do any leavers think Jon has a point?








*Jon Snow* ‏@*jonsnowC4* 6h6 hours ago

In the age of Trump: Shall we get this straight:1/3rd of the UK voted Brexit:
1/3rd remain:1/3rd Didn't vote:
Is that a vote for hard Brexit?


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> And just to add not all politicians are self-serving. Caroline Lucas is a principled politician with real gravitas & integrity. If only more were like her.


Yes , it would be nice .

but shes not in power yet. Didn't people say the same things about Corbyn yet they now feel betrayed ?


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Yes , it would be nice .
> 
> but shes not in power yet. Didn't people say the same things about Corbyn yet they now feel betrayed ?


As Naomi Klein put it - 'Caroline Lucas is one of the world bravest most principled politicians'. You cant get a better accolade then that, from another world respected individual. She isn't motivated by self interest. As for Corbyn, I think article 50 put labour in a no win situation, so it wouldn't matter who was leader - a whole group were going to feel betrayed. Corbyn is a principled man, I obviously don't agree with him on brexit & a few other things & I'm really worried labour are doing so poorly in the polls. So tbqh, as much as I agree with most of his policies, any one would do as labour leader. We desperately need a strong opposition right now.


----------



## noushka05

,https://www.fiannafail.ie/speech-by...all-island-civic-dialogue-on-brexit-feb-17th/


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> As Naomi Klein put it - 'Caroline Lucas is one of the world bravest most principled politicians'. You cant get a better accolade then that, from another world respected individual. She isn't motivated by self interest. As for Corbyn, I think article 50 put labour in a no win situation, so it wouldn't matter who was leader - a whole group were going to feel betrayed. Corbyn is a principled man, I obviously don't agree with him on brexit & a few other things & I'm really worried labour are doing so poorly in the polls. So tbqh, as much as I agree with most of his policies, any one would do as labour leader. We desperately need a strong opposition right now.


I think you're saying what Ive been saying all along, that you can't stick to your principles when you are PM..
Well you cant say people weren't warned. It was said right at the start that Corbyn wouldn't win an election. He should have resigned when he lost the support of his MPs. We need a strong Labour party by the next election or it will be power sharing with the Lib dems.


----------



## samuelsmiles

'On the reception and detection of pseudo-profound bulls***'


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles said:


> 'On the reception and detection of pseudo-profound bulls***'


HaHaHa

Where do you find these things? More to the point, why do you find these things?


----------



## kimthecat

samuelsmiles said:


> 'On the reception and detection of pseudo-profound bulls***'


:Hilarious BTW I love conspiracy theories ! You just never know, some might be true


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> I think you're saying what Ive been saying all along, that you can't stick to your principles when you are PM..
> Well you cant say people weren't warned. It was said right at the start that Corbyn wouldn't win an election. He should have resigned when he lost the support of his MPs. We need a strong Labour party by the next election or it will be power sharing with the Lib dems.


I disagree. Caroline Lucas has been a politician for 20 years. I dont think shes ever compromised her principles or the Green Partys core values. Hence why she is so highly respected right across the political divide. As for Corbyn he never had the support of a chunk of his MPs. Corbyn didn't even stand for the leadership race to win, he only stood to put back socialist policies on the agenda. He didn't expect to win, but he won with the biggest mandate of any leader. He was elected by people at grass roots level. He was thrust from a lifelong back bencher to the top job & he has made loads of mistakes. That doesn't mean he is unprincipled.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> I disagree. Caroline Lucas has been a politician for 20 years. I dont think shes ever compromised her principles or the Green Partys core values. Hence why she is so highly respected right across the political divide. As for Corbyn he never had the support of a chunk of his MPs. Corbyn didn't even stand for the leadership race to win, he only stood to put back socialist policies on the agenda. He didn't expect to win, but he won with the biggest mandate of any leader. He was elected by people at grass roots level. He was thrust from a lifelong back bencher to the top job & he has made loads of mistakes. That doesn't mean he is unprincipled.


He is unprincipled. IMO.
Actually worse than Farage ( because here you get what you see).
He lied about supporting Remain to switch to the other side 
Can share the same bench in hellwith Blair.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious BTW I love conspiracy theories ! You just never know, some might be true


Theres still a mass of people who actually believe climate change is some massive conspiracy theory created by the _entire _scientific community, world governments & so on Many right wing politicians are deniers & Trump thinks China created the hoax. Arrogantly ignoring experts is leading us down a catastrophic path.


----------



## 1290423

I've just read all the reasons why we should have voted remain on this thread

And hey!

Guess what?

*IM STILL OUT*


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Theres still a mass of people who actually believe climate change is some massive conspiracy theory created by the _entire _scientific community, world governments & so on Many right wing politicians are deniers & Trump thinks China created the hoax. Arrogantly ignoring experts is leading us down a catastrophic path.


It is the same as if they were denying pollution or vanished species...


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> He is unprincipled. IMO.
> Actually worse than Farage ( because here you get what you see).
> He lied about supporting Remain to switch to the other side
> Can share the same bench in hellwith Blair.


And you're entitled to your opinion. But I still disagree with it lol. I think his voting history, his expense claims say otherwise - he is principled. He campaigned up & down the country for remain. I know people who went to listen to him & they said he made an excellent case for remaining. But he said labour would respect the result.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> I've just read all the reasons why we should have voted remain on this thread
> 
> And hey!
> 
> Guess what?
> 
> *IM STILL OUT*


You must be really cold by now.
Come in, warm up a bit....I can install extralarge catflat, so you can feel safe...


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> He is unprincipled. IMO.
> Actually worse than Farage ( because here you get what you see).
> He lied about supporting Remain to switch to the other side
> Can share the same bench in hellwith Blair.


Agreed. At least Blair never changed his position as far as leaving the EU is concerned.


----------



## 1290423

Phew!
Wish I was cold, sat here in my underwear with the window open


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> And you're entitled to your opinion. But I still disagree with it lol. I think his voting history, his expense claims say otherwise - he is principled. He campaigned up & down the country for remain. I know people who went to listen to him & they said he made an excellent case for remaining. But he said labour would respect the result.


Funny that as soon as Remain votes got him into leadership again he jumped the ship?
So now he believes in Brexit?
C'mon . 
To the point of three line whip?
What about respecting the other half?
It was not 90% Brexit!!!
As to his " campaign" for Remain in comparison to his campaign to stay put as party leader?

Beyond joke.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Phew!
> Wish I was cold, sat here in my underwear with the window open
> 
> View attachment 301352


Roxanne....


----------



## 1290423

And even if I go in the other room I have this to contend with!


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have read everyone's arguements for remaining over the last 7 months or so on here.

I have listened to all the MP's debating in Parliament before the article 50 vote on the Parliament Channel.

I listened to the Lord's debating today in the House of Lord's on the Parliament Channel.

Guess what?

I haven't changed my mind and...

*I AM STILL OUT. *


----------



## 1290423

But!
We have to keep this warm!


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I have read everyone's arguements for remaining over the last 7 months or so on here.
> 
> I have listened to all the MP's debating in Parliament before the article 50 vote on the Parliament Channel.
> 
> I listened to the Lord's debating today in the House of Lord's on the Parliament Channel.
> 
> Guess what?
> 
> I haven't changed my mind and...
> 
> *I AM STILL OUT. *


Another Frozen one...


----------



## Zaros

Calvine said:


> I am talking about Zaros.who.... Never mind, it happens. I am ''tense''. So would you. If I made similar suggestions about him, I am inappropriate.


_*YOU KNOW YOU LOVE ME REALLY.*_


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny that as soon as Remain votes got him into leadership again he jumped the ship?
> So now he believes in Brexit?
> C'mon .
> To the point of three line whip?
> What about respecting the other half?
> It was not 90% Brexit!!!
> As to his " campaign" for Remain in comparison to his campaign to stay put as party leader?
> 
> Beyond joke.


My hubby & at least two pf members I know of on here voted for him because they were sick of new labour. I don't think the referendum was at the forefront of anyones mind back then. Do you have evidence that shows otherwise.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> I haven't changed my mind and...
> 
> *I AM STILL OUT. *


I have to say,I haven't either stockwellcat.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny that as soon as Remain votes got him into leadership again he jumped the ship?
> So now he believes in Brexit?
> C'mon .
> To the point of three line whip?
> What about respecting the other half?
> It was not 90% Brexit!!!
> As to his " campaign" for Remain in comparison to his campaign to stay put as party leader?
> 
> Beyond joke.


Agree wholeheartedly. Corbyn may have once been a principled man but as leader of the opposition such principles have diminished somewhat.

His betrayal in his apparent U turn in supporting May's vision of Brexit is unforgivable. "Respect the vote", utter bullshit. What about respecting the vote in Gibraltar, NI and Scotland? Corbyn shows no apparent support in that.

The sooner Corbyn stands down or loses the next leadership challenge the better.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> My hubby & at least two pf members I know of on here voted for him because they were sick of new labour. I don't think the referendum was at the forefront of anyones mind back then. Do you have evidence that shows otherwise.


Before Labour leadership he was in Remain camp?
Making them believe he is supporting them?
Then he did not EVEN ALLOWED FREE VOTE!!!!
Actually think Tories were less scared to support Remain should they wish so.

I place Corbyn between UKiP and Tories ..a bit tight spot....


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Agree wholeheartedly. Corbyn may have once been a principled man but as leader of the opposition such principles have diminished somewhat.
> 
> His betrayal in his apparent U turn in supporting May's vision of Brexit is unforgivable. "Respect the vote", utter bullshit. What about respecting the vote in Gibraltar, NI and Scotland?
> 
> The sooner Corbyn stands down or loses the next leadership challenge the better.


What about respect for his own MPs and voters?


----------



## Jonescat

deleted -wrong thread


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Agreed. At least Blair never changed his position as far as leaving the EU is concerned.


What's this then, seems like he has.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> What's this then, seems like he has.


Corrosion of Labour has created the vacuum filled by UKiP. Just because people got fed up.


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious BTW I love conspiracy theories ! You just never know, some might be true


You did know, Conspiracy Theory/Theorist is term used against, and applied to all those who would dare question the statements/activities of known liars. Contrary to popular belief, it is not a term the CIA came up with.

Or maybe it was?

It is widely considered to be a pejorative term used solely to discredit those who seek nothing more than the absolute truth.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Before Labour leadership he was in Remain camp?
> Making them believe he is supporting them?
> Then he did not EVEN ALLOWED FREE VOTE!!!!
> Actually think Tories were less scared to support Remain should they wish so.
> 
> I place Corbyn between UKiP and Tories ..a bit tight spot....


As I said previously, the people I know voted for him because of his policies - that includes people I know in the flesh, on here & on twitter. I agree, I think he should have allowed mps a free vote, he defied the whip plenty, & some mps did just that. My mp didn't defy the whip, he said he felt he had to respect the wishes of the majority who voted to leave.


----------



## stockwellcat.

A game of guess who.

Who is the boy with the circle around his head (no it's not me)?

Clues given upon request.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> A game of guess who.
> 
> Who is the boy with the circle around his head (no it's not me)?
> 
> Clues given upon request.


I have no idea so requesting a clue please.


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> I have no idea so requesting a clue please.


He later became an MP








Any idea yet?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Tony Blair?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

stockwellcat said:


> He later became an MP
> View attachment 301363
> 
> Any idea yet?


Sorry I posted before you put this photo on. Is it Robin Cook?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> I have no idea so requesting a clue please.


He later on became the leader of the current opposition party


----------



## noushka05

The puppeteer and his puppet.
#


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> As I said previously, the people I know voted for him because of his policies - that includes people I know in the flesh, on here & on twitter. I agree, I think he should have allowed mps a free vote, he defied the whip plenty, & some mps did just that. My mp didn't defy the whip, he said he felt he had to respect the wishes of the majority who voted to leave.


52:48.
People who were lied to. About 350 mln for NHs for starters. ..
Majority voted for Hitler. So his critics should have switched sides out of respect for majority?


----------



## Honeys mum

NO Bregrets-Brexiteers have no regrets,the question is how many more would have voted Brexit now project fear has shown to be lies


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> NO Bregrets-Brexiteers have no regrets,the question is how many more would have voted Brexit now project fear has shown to be lies


Calm before the storm.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> Any idea yet?





stockwellcat said:


> He later on became the leader of the current opposition party


I think it might be Tony Blair.


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Calm before the storm.


We will have to wait and see cheekyscript, only time will tell.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> I think it might be Tony Blair.


Definitely Corbyn 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...edroom-home-went-prep-school-played-polo.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> We will have to wait and see cheekyscript, only time will tell.


Not a good prospect here. Even access to Spanish hospitals for more specific investigations would be a problem. Now I get special pass to cross without the queues to take my child there. Otherwise it is the flight to London.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> 52:48.
> People who were lied to. About 350 mln for NHs for starters. ..
> Majority voted for Hitler. So his critics should have switched sides out of respect for majority?


How were they lied to? He stated all along labour would respect the outcome of the referendum. People voted for him because he has social values & his credentials on the environment are really good. He was/is the best hope of saving our NHS - he wants to renationalise it
. The tories have destroyed millions of lives with their austerity, Corbyn offered them hope. Cameron created this brexit chaos because of an internal party feud. He crushed people with his austerity. This duplicitous liar is the root of the fiasco.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> How were they lied to? He stated all along labour would respect the outcome of the referendum. People voted for him because he has social values & his credentials on the environment are really good. He was/is the best hope of saving our NHS - he wants to renationalise it
> . The tories have destroyed millions of lives with their austerity, Corbyn offered them hope. Cameron created this brexit chaos because of an internal party feud. He crushed people with his austerity. This duplicitous liar is the root of the fiasco.


If you had to choose? Corbyn and Brexit or Owen and Remain?
I would have understood free vote though. As a sign of respect for his MPs and his voters regardless on which side they were.
Austerity is actually to begin. Poor will get only poorer.







Green issues?


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Not a good prospect here. Even access to Spanish hospitals for more specific investigations would be a problem. Now I get special pass to cross without the queues to take my child there. Otherwise it is the flight to London.


Sorry to read that, I hope it will turn out to be good for you as well.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> Definitely CI orbyn


I would never have guessed him.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> If you had to choose? Corbyn and Brexit or Owen and Remain?
> I would have understood free vote though. As a sign of respect for his MPs and his voters regardless on which side they were m


I prefer Corbyns policies - & they are closer to the Green Party's. But as I said earlier, we need an effective opposition to this extreme authoritarian government. I want to remain, so I think now, I probably would choose Owen.

I think Private Eye sums up labours position on brexit really well.










ETA Austerity has pushed millions into poverty. Trashed our NHS & public services. Yes I agree it is going to get a whole lot worse. The tories are toxic.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> I prefer Corbyns policies - & they are closer to the Green Party's. But as I said earlier, we need an effective opposition to this extreme authoritarian government. I want to remain, so I think now, I probably would choose Owen.
> 
> I think Private Eye sums up labours position on brexit really well.
> 
> View attachment 301369
> 
> 
> ETA Austerity has pushed millions into poverty. Trashed our NHS & public services. Yes I agree it is going to get a whole lot worse. The tories are toxic.


Effective opposition with Corbyn in power is not possible,unless another party will form the new Shadow cabinet after next election. Corbyn bats for the Unions.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Theres still a mass of people who actually believe climate change is some massive conspiracy theory created by the _entire _scientific community, world governments & so on Many right wing politicians are deniers & Trump thinks China created the hoax. Arrogantly ignoring experts is leading us down a catastrophic path.


 Well I was thinking more of ones like alien landings cover ups and was Marilyn Monroe murdered


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> I disagree. Caroline Lucas has been a politician for 20 years. I dont think shes ever compromised her principles or the Green Partys core values. Hence why she is so highly respected right across the political divide.


perhaps that's why they only have one ? MP at the moment . 



> As for Corbyn he never had the support of a chunk of his MPs. Corbyn didn't even stand for the leadership race to win, he only stood to put back socialist policies on the agenda. He didn't expect to win, but he won with the biggest mandate of any leader. He was elected by people at grass roots level. He was thrust from a lifelong back bencher to the top job & he has made loads of mistakes. That doesn't mean he is unprincipled.


Yet once he was leader , he didn't want to let go .

Reasons why he bid for leadership.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/who-jeremy-corbyn-everything-you-5818431

" Labour MP Jeremy Corbyn has launched a surprise bid for the party leadership, declaring he wants to give members a 'proper' left-wing choice.
He's the fifth MP to throw his hat into the ring, telling the Mirror there needs to be more radical thinking on issues like welfare and austerity .
*People were disillusioned with what we were offering*. "

So what did he offer , what did he promised /pledge?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/what-jeremy-corbyns-10-labour-8560190
*1. £500bn for infrastructure and jobs
2. A million homes - half of them council homes*
*3. End zero hour contracts*
*4. 'Re-nationalise' the NHS*
*5. Cut student fees*
*6. Pour state-backed cash into green schemes*
*7. Put railways, buses and council services back in state hands*
*8. Set a £10 minimum wage*

This is why people vote for him , his pledges . Will he really be able to do all this? If he doesn't then, then principled or not , he is breaking his promises and he is no better than May for breaking her promise to take in 3,000 child refugees. 


Personally , I feel sorry for him . if he believes he can do all this then he is deluded . If he knows he can't then he is lying and no better than Boris and his red bus.

Failure to deliver, it doesn't matter to the people who are let down whether the MPs are principled or uncaring ,they have been let down and for the ones that suffer its no consolation that he tried his best .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> no better than May for breaking her promise to take in 3,000 child refugees.


We'll see soon if this is just headline grabbing
https://www.solicitorsjournal.com/n...llenge-home-office-over-dubs-scheme-decisions


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> NO Bregrets-Brexiteers have no regrets,the *question is how many more would have voted Brexit now project fear has shown to be lies*


Wow, seriously? From what I'm seeing things are going to be bad if not worse then experts predicted. Hard brexit is going to be catastrophic for all but the extremely wealthy. And even they wont be immune from our polluted, poisoned land & atmosphere & climate change.



kimthecat said:


> perhaps that's why they only have one ? MP at the moment .
> 
> Yet once he was leader , he didn't want to let go .
> 
> Reasons why he bid for leadership.
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/who-jeremy-corbyn-everything-you-5818431
> 
> " Labour MP Jeremy Corbyn has launched a surprise bid for the party leadership, declaring he wants to give members a 'proper' left-wing choice.
> He's the fifth MP to throw his hat into the ring, telling the Mirror there needs to be more radical thinking on issues like welfare and austerity .
> *People were disillusioned with what we were offering*. "
> 
> So what did he offer , what did he promised /pledge?
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/what-jeremy-corbyns-10-labour-8560190
> *1. £500bn for infrastructure and jobs
> 2. A million homes - half of them council homes*
> *3. End zero hour contracts*
> *4. 'Re-nationalise' the NHS*
> *5. Cut student fees*
> *6. Pour state-backed cash into green schemes*
> *7. Put railways, buses and council services back in state hands*
> *8. Set a £10 minimum wage*
> 
> This is why people vote for him , his pledges . Will he really be able to do all this? If he doesn't then, then principled or not , he is breaking his promises and he is no better than May for breaking her promise to take in 3,000 child refugees.
> 
> 
> Personally , I feel sorry for him . if he believes he can do all this then he is deluded . If he knows he can't then he is lying and no better than Boris and his red bus.
> 
> Failure to deliver, it doesn't matter to the people who are let down whether the MPs are principled or uncaring ,they have been let down and for the ones that suffer its no consolation that he tried his best .


Its a pity more people don't check out the Greens policies - because when they do, the majority of people agree with them 

Yes this is why people voted for Corbyn. He offers the alternative to destructive neoliberalism. There is nothing extreme about any of his policies. Many of these things were achieved with a labour government after a war when we were a far poorer country. Its all about fairer taxation. If the wealthy & corporations pay their fair share of taxes it reduces inequality & gives more money to spend the wider society.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Effective opposition with Corbyn in power is not possible,unless another party will form the new Shadow cabinet after next election. Corbyn bats for the Unions.


Yes he does bat for the unions, another important factor why he won the leadership battles. We wouldn't have a labour party if it wasn't for the Trade Union movement, they are inextricably linked but new labour treated the unions terribly. Unions represent millions working people in the private and public sector, from foundry operatives like my hubby, to firemen, teachers & doctors.


----------



## noushka05

And so it begins.

Brexit induced falling pound renders UK companies vulnerable to foreign takeover. So much for 'taking the country back' 

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-unilever-vauxhall?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet

Another Brexit downside: foreign giants in power grabs for famous British names
The fall in the pound against the dollar has made it easier for Kraft Heinz to launch an approach for Unilever, and made UK carmaking unattractive to GM


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Yes he does bat for the unions, another important factor why he won the leadership battles. We wouldn't have a labour party if it wasn't for the Trade Union movement, they are inextricably linked but new labour treated the unions terribly. Unions represent millions working people in the private and public sector, from foundry operatives like my hubby, to firemen, teachers & doctors.


I have fair idea  . I am from Gdansk. Knew some of those people well and could see both sides of the Unions.
They are essential. They cannot replace governments though
Even if they think differently.
I am from Gdansk.  Unions were born in our kitchens.
Corbyn should have been Union leader. He is destroying Labour, not uniting it...should step down asap. Else we will have only LibDem, also compromised, or Green left.
How many of 48% would support Corbyn?
Majority of Leave are not Labour voters and I do not see it changing overnight.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Wow, seriously? From what I'm seeing things are going to be bad if not worse then experts predicted. Hard brexit is going to be catastrophic for all but the extremely wealthy. And even they wont be immune from our polluted, poisoned land & atmosphere & climate change.


Good on yer noush, true to form, just the answer I expected from you. Full of doom and gloom yet again , and all about something that hasn't even happened yet.


----------



## Honeys mum

Brexit has given the UK the greatest opportunity to rebuild the nation in generations we must ensure the government work for UK interests


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> Good on yer noush, true to form, just the answer I expected from you. Full of doom and gloom yet again , and all about something that hasn't even happened yet.


Perhaps you can come up with how the UK will be so much better post Brexit that isn't just campaigns for the return of blue passports, reversal of metrication and other menial matters people thought made the country so great?


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> Brexit has given the UK the greatest opportunity to rebuild the nation in generations we must ensure the government work for UK interests


What's the source of the screenshot?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> What's the source of the screenshot?


Oh...but it be British laws and ruling bodies (never mind they need to match their counterparts), controlled immigration ( never mind from where and the number!!!)... Privatisation of NHS, takeover of British brands and industry, tariffs, border delays,expats forced to come back, banks forced to.move out...and inflation.
Rising prices, stagnant wages and pensions.

Obviously it is cheaper to bring food from Australia than from across the Channel?

Cheaper goods from where? China?
How weak pound affects transport costs and import costs?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh...but it be British laws and ruling bodies (never mind they need to match their counterparts), controlled immigration ( never mind from where and the number!!!)... Privatisation of NHS, takeover of British brands and industry, tariffs, border delays,expats forced to come back, banks forced to.move out...and inflation.
> Rising prices, stagnant wages and pensions.
> 
> Obviously it is cheaper to bring food from Australia than from across the Channel?
> 
> Cheaper goods from where? China?


But they're getting their country back! Surely it'll all be worth it.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear, more divisions between Brexiteers....

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-on-low-skilled-eu-migrants-says-david-davis


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> And so it begins.
> 
> Brexit induced falling pound renders UK companies vulnerable to foreign takeover. So much for 'taking the country back'
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-unilever-vauxhall?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
> 
> Another Brexit downside: foreign giants in power grabs for famous British names
> The fall in the pound against the dollar has made it easier for Kraft Heinz to launch an approach for Unilever, and made UK carmaking unattractive to GM


Most have been already taken over already and the falling pound is due to all its uncertainty and hysteria.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Yes this is why people voted for Corbyn. He offers the alternative to destructive neoliberalism. There is nothing extreme about any of his policies. Many of these things were achieved with a labour government after a war when we were a far poorer country. Its all about fairer taxation. If the wealthy & corporations pay their fair share of taxes it reduces inequality & gives more money to spend the wider society.


I'm not saying they are extreme. I'm saying they're unachievable.
"After the war" is a different country from today. far less people , rebuilding houses took years , Beeching cut railways in the 60s. Those policies couldn't be sustained, it's all been done before . Huge amounts of money wasted on railways etc that could have been spent on welfare etc . Fairer taxation yes, but not so high when to causes companies . business and rich people to move abroad and take their wealth with them or it forces business to close which has happened with previous governments.

We live in the Britain not cloud cuckoo land.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> But they're getting their country back!


Yes and I for one can't wait.


----------



## KittenKong

Once again HM could you please state where these images are coming from?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear, more divisions between Brexiteers....
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-on-low-skilled-eu-migrants-says-david-davis
> View attachment 301382
> View attachment 301383


I don't see why, we have had 100,000 regular agricultural workers that come to work here every year and another 100,000 that work as casual or temporary workers in agriculture. They don't usually live here apart from the time they are here to work, a few will be here most of the year but others are just working a "season" whatever that may be in length. Some would be a few weeks eg. harvest or fruit picking and other a few months eg field salads and veg


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Wow, seriously? From what I'm seeing things are going to be bad if not worse then experts predicted. Hard brexit is going to be catastrophic for all but the extremely wealthy. And even they wont be immune from our polluted, poisoned land & atmosphere & climate change.
> 
> *Its a pity more people don't check out the Greens policies - because when they do, the majority of people agree with them *
> 
> Yes this is why people voted for Corbyn. He offers the alternative to destructive neoliberalism. There is nothing extreme about any of his policies. Many of these things were achieved with a labour government after a war when we were a far poorer country. Its all about fairer taxation. If the wealthy & corporations pay their fair share of taxes it reduces inequality & gives more money to spend the wider society.


I'm not sure the Green Party is a viable option just yet. I think, maybe, some of their policies need to be clarified a little more. 

Natalie Bennett was actually the Green Party leader when giving this interview.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Once again HM could you please state where these images are coming from?


You hardly ever give your sources


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You hardly ever give your sources


? I always endeavour to do so. Reasons 2 remain.eu, Guardian, Independent, BBC, Britain for Europe to mention a few.
See post #5861 above for example.

There might have been the odd occasion I might have omitted to do so. I would welcome this to be highlighted by others.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Once again HM could you please state where these images are coming from?


As rona said, you hardly ever give your sources, does it really matter where i got them from.? 
But for your information, they have come of a Breixtiteer website, and that is all i am saying. I don't want to appear rude,(that is something I have never been on this forum), but if you don't like them, you can always put me on ignore.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> As rona said, you hardly ever give your sources, does it really matter where i got them from.?
> But for your information, they have come of a Breixtiteer website, and that is all i am saying. I don't want to appear rude,(that is something I have never been on this forum), but if you don't like them, you can always put me on ignore.


I'm aware they came from a Brexiteer website, I was only asking which one! If you stand by them why not let us know?

Again, I believe I've made every effort to quote my sources so I don't understand why Rona and yourself think I usually don't. Some like Britain for Europe and Reasons 2 Remain are clearly pro EU sources I am proud to support and happy to share this with others on a public forum.

However, no one is perfect. They might have been occasions I may have omitted to give a source.

Please by all means ask if I have done.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> I'm aware they came from a Brexiteer website, I was only asking which one! If you stand by them why not let us know?


Sorry, but as I said, I don't have too, and as it's a site for people who voted to leave and you voted to remain, so why would you want to go on it.? I have no wish to go on any remain sites. As we know it's been said many times, we are both entiled to our opinions on which way we voted.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

I seriously wonder at times about the motives of the people who seem to be willing everything to fail under Brexit, not even prepared to give the negotiating team a chance to see what they come back with, looking for any little ***** they can find and celebrating it, just bile and vitriol and frankly more hatred than I see coming from the leave side. I don't understand how wanting the country to fail will help anyone least of all those they purport to represent.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> They might have been occasions I may have omitted to give a source.
> 
> Please by all means ask if I have done.


Thankyou KittenKong, but I see no need to know where your souces come from. As I am not going to say that they are just lies, as some do sometimes on this post whenever some one from the leave campaign post something.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Once again HM could you please state where these images are coming from?


 why does it matter where images come from ? 
They're not facts. we've all put up images and not said where they've come from .


----------



## Satori

*Senior Donald Trump aide warns European Union it can expect 'hostility' after Brexit *

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...de-warns-european-union-can-expect-hostility/


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I seriously wonder at times about the motives of the people who seem to be willing everything to fail under Brexit, not even prepared to give the negotiating team a chance to see what they come back with, looking for any little ***** they can find and celebrating it, just bile and vitriol and frankly more hatred than I see coming from the leave side. I don't understand how wanting the country to fail will help anyone least of all those they purport to represent.


Brexit failures will be the fault of the government, not the EU and remain supporters. I know you're not actually saying that incase you think I'm twisting your words.

I can't see any benefit in removing UK citizens' right to free movement as one of many examples. When many who voted leave realise they'll lose something taken for granted I'm sure they'll regret it.

The problem is the government don't recognise the 48%, nor the individual results in Scotland, Gibraltar and NI. If they think the entire UK will embrace this they're very much mistaken.

I have long believed in a compromise. The EEA option is not something I would prefer, I would support continued membership of the EU personally but I'm a realist.

The EEA compromise is the far better option than the leap in to the unknown.

Such a compromise would at least work towards re-uniting the UK.

If the vote went the other way with a similar margin would you think everyone, including some remain supporters would have backed a "hard remain", adopt the Euro etc.?


----------



## Honeys mum

kimthecat said:


> They're not facts. we've all put up images and not said where they've come from .


Thankyou kimthecat, images, that's exactly what they are. Facts will usually state where they come from, images don't as I'm sure we all know.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Brexit failures will be the fault of the government, not the EU and remain supporters. I know you're not actually saying that incase you think I'm twisting your words.
> 
> I can't see any benefit in removing UK citizens' right to free movement as one of many examples. When many who voted leave realise they'll lose something taken for granted I'm sure they'll regret it.
> 
> The problem is the government don't recognise the 48%, nor the individual results in Scotland, Gibraltar and NI. If they think the entire UK will embrace this they're very much mistaken.
> 
> I have long believed in a compromise. The EEA option is not something I would prefer, I would support continued membership of the EU personally but I'm a realist.
> 
> The EEA compromise is the far better option than the leap in to the unknown.
> 
> Such a compromise would at least work towards re-uniting the UK.
> 
> If the vote went the other way with a similar margin would you think everyone, including some remain supporters would have backed a "hard remain", adopt the Euro etc.?


----------



## Happy Paws2

This subject is getting :Bored:Bored:Bored:Yawn:Yawn:Yawn


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> This subject is getting :Bored:Bored:Bored:Yawn:Yawn:Yawn


A friend of mine has just said they are sick of hearing about Brexit now and wishes the Government just get on with it. In the same way this thread is going around in circles and must be making people get bored.

Is there a way to ignore an entire thread? Does anyone know? I cannot put up with this for two more plus years until the UK leaves the EU


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> A friend of mine has just said they are sick of hearing about Brexit now and wishes the Government just get on with it. In the same way this thread is going around in circles and must be making people get bored.
> *
> Is there a way to ignore an entire thread*? Does anyone know? I cannot put up with this for two more plus years until the UK leaves the EU


See, the difference between the good people of PFs and Politicians is a simple one. Politicians are allegedly doing something concrete about the situation, whereas Pet Forumers are just 'toing' and 'froing' and getting absolutely nowhere but Frustration Street with each other.

However, in answer to your query, try not contributing.:Cigar


----------



## Jonescat

It will be rather longer than 2 yrs before the to-ing and fro-ing is done, and even longer before people stop expressing their view. My Mum still thinks the 1707 Act of Union was a mistake....


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Brexit failures will be the fault of the government, not the EU and remain supporters. I know you're not actually saying that incase you think I'm twisting your words.
> 
> I can't see any benefit in removing UK citizens' right to free movement as one of many examples. When many who voted leave realise they'll lose something taken for granted I'm sure they'll regret it.
> 
> The problem is the government don't recognise the 48%, nor the individual results in Scotland, Gibraltar and NI. If they think the entire UK will embrace this they're very much mistaken.
> 
> I have long believed in a compromise. The EEA option is not something I would prefer, I would support continued membership of the EU personally but I'm a realist.
> 
> The EEA compromise is the far better option than the leap in to the unknown.
> 
> Such a compromise would at least work towards re-uniting the UK.
> 
> If the vote went the other way with a similar margin would you think everyone, including some remain supporters would have backed a "hard remain", adopt the Euro etc.?


You not seeing any benefit and wanting a compromise is all well and dandy but there seems to be an underlying hope by a lot of leave voters that the whole thing will fail and we will all fall flat on our faces and have to beg for forgiveness for making such an ill informed and newspaper influenced (not to mention big red buses) decision. You don't have to like it or approve of it but it is happening so why not try to be a bit supportive and hopeful for the future rather than the constant drip drip drip of negativity.



stockwellcat said:


> A friend of mine has just said they are sick of hearing about Brexit now and wishes the Government just get on with it. In the same way this thread is going around in circles and must be making people get bored.
> 
> Is there a way to ignore an entire thread? Does anyone know? I cannot put up with this for two more plus years until the UK leaves the EU


Just take a break from it or put some posters on ignore if they start to get you down.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> S whereas Pet Forumers are just 'toing' and 'froing' and getting absolutely nowhere but Frustration Street with each other.


 It keeps us of the streets :Smuggrin

If I don't do this very important job of contributing to this thread I would have to do things like housework


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> A friend of mine has just said they are sick of hearing about Brexit now and wishes the Government just get on with it. In the same way this thread is going around in circles and must be making people get bored.
> 
> *Is there a way to ignore an entire thread? Does anyone know?* I cannot put up with this for two more plus years until the UK leaves the EU


I having been looking into that and can't find anything.


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> It keeps us of the streets :Smuggrin
> 
> If I don't do this very important job of contributing to this thread I would have to do things like housework


*Well, I just made a fairly innocuous observation that some folks seem to be getting their *







* t1ts off about it all*.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You don't have to like it or approve of it but it is happening so why not try to be a bit supportive and hopeful for the future rather than the constant drip drip drip of negativity.
> 
> Just take a break from it or put some posters on ignore if they start to get you down.


Absolutely not. I can never accept a complete withdrawal from Europe. No way in a million years.....

I am prepared to compromise, it's a shame the majority of Brexiteers won't it seems.

Besides, why should I go for the ignore option? People have as much right to their opinion as I have, even if their views differ to my own as long as it doesn't get nasty.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely not. I can never accept a complete withdrawal from Europe. No way in a million years.....
> 
> I am prepared to compromise, it's a shame the majority of Brexiteers won't it seems.
> 
> Besides, why should I go for the ignore option? People have as much right to their opinion as I have, even if their views differ to my own as long as it doesn't get nasty.


Please read my post again - I did not suggest you go for the ignore option - that was in reply to @stockwellcat who I quoted.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> It keeps us of the streets :Smuggrin
> 
> If I don't do this very important job of contributing to this thread I would have to do things like housework


True.

I am with you on housework avoidance or even evasion.

Pound falls not because business and bankers got emotional, but because they do not deal in slogans, such is economy.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I am not happy about it, but this is the truth. 
This is the same as if someone was warning you about coming tornado or earthquake and you would scold them about negativity.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Good on yer noush, true to form, just the answer I expected from you. Full of doom and gloom yet again , and all about something that hasn't even happened yet.


Thanks, but all credit goes to those dastardly experts for jolting us into reality.



Honeys mum said:


> Brexit has given the UK the greatest opportunity to rebuild the nation in generations we must ensure the government work for UK interests


lol So many lies on one meme I don't know where to begin. Why don't you fact check it HM?. You are being duped. You do know who Aaron Banks is?











kimthecat said:


> Most have been already taken over already and the falling pound is due to all its uncertainty and hysteria.


Nothing to do with the hysteria. The falling pound is direct result of brexit - take overs are going to be the fall out.



kimthecat said:


> I'm not saying they are extreme. I'm saying they're unachievable.
> "After the war" is a different country from today. far less people , rebuilding houses took years , Beeching cut railways in the 60s. Those policies couldn't be sustained, it's all been done before . Huge amounts of money wasted on railways etc that could have been spent on welfare etc . Fairer taxation yes, but not so high when to causes companies . business and rich people to move abroad and take their wealth with them or it forces business to close which has happened with previous governments.
> 
> We live in the Britain not cloud cuckoo land.


Neoliberal economics has been a disaster not only for the masses but for the environment too. Even the IMF now agrees neoliberalism is failing. And many of the worlds leading economists agree with Corbyns economic policy - I'm sure you wouldn't tell them they were living in cloud cuckoo land, would you?

It would be CHEAPER for tax payers to renationalise railways. Privatisation means public money goes into private pockets- http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2012/03/rail-renationalise The tories are ramping up privatisation in the NHS - this is already proving to be a disaster! Fairer taxation means just that. Creating a tax haven means no money for the health service, no money for public services, the welfare state.

http://www.pieria.co.uk/articles/letter_to_the_ft_corbyns_economic_policies_are_sensible

*Letter to the FT: Corbyn's economic policies are sensible*

The recent statement from Jeremy Corbyn that "austerity is a policy choice not economic necessity" provides a welcome return to serious discussion in the Labour leadership debate. Therefore, the assertions that Corbyn is a "danger" who is causing harm to the Labour Party and the public in general is quite surprising and inappropriate (for example, see _FT View_15 August, that Mr Corbyn's candidacy brings "potential harm to...British public life").

Many of Corbyn's policies are advocated by prominent economists and commentators. An example is his proposal to fund public investment by the sale of bonds to the Bank of England. Yet, until now, politicians competing to hold the centre ground have largely ignored such policies or cast them as unthinkable.

Corbyn's proposals should be welcomed even by his opponents for stimulating serious discussion of crucial issues such as the role of the public sector in investment, management of debt and money, and how to tackle inequality. It is to Corbyn's credit that he has broadened the policy discussion so that the shared assumptions behind the narrow range of policies advocated by both the Conservative government and the other Labour leadership candidates are now being debated.

*Signed by the following teachers and researchers in economics:*

Victoria Chick, University College London

Susan Himmelweit, Open University

Malcolm Sawyer, University of Leeds

Annina Kaltenbrunner, University of Leeds

Gary Dymski, University of Leeds

Ruth Pearson, University of Leeds

Hugo Radice, University of Leeds

Ann Pettifor, Prime Economics

Jeremy Smith, Prime Economics

Steve Keen, Kingston University

Eva Karwowski, Kingston University

Engelbert Stockhammer, Kingston University

Alfredo Saad, SOAS

Guy Standing SOAS

John Weeks, SOAS

Carlos Oya, SOAS

George Irvin, SOAS

Ioana Negru, SOAS

Ioana Negru, SOAS

Chris Cramer, SOAS

Jo Michell, University of the West of England

Susan Newman, University of the West of England

Daniela Gabor, University of the West of England

Andrew Mearman, University of the West of England

Ozlem Onaran, University of Greenwich

Jeff Powell, University of Greenwich

Mehmet Ugur, University of Greenwich

Giovanni Cozzi, University of Greenwich

Maria Nikolaidi, University of Greenwich

Simon Mohun, Queen Mary University

Neil Lancastle, DeMontfort University

James Meadway, City University

John Grahl, Middlesex University

Rhys Jenkins, University of East Anglia



Honeys mum said:


> Yes and I for one can't wait.


Jingoism makes me feel embarrassed.



samuelsmiles said:


> I'm not sure the Green Party is a viable option just yet. I think, maybe, some of their policies need to be clarified a little more.
> 
> Natalie Bennett was actually the Green Party leader when giving this interview.


It was a car crash interview, for which she apologised. I've seen plenty of politicians give car crash interviews over the years. Liz Truss has one every time she opens her mouth:Hilarious And has Theresa May given a straight answer to any question yet? lol. If only media would hold the tories to account on their dire policies. Their politics of greed have been devastating millions lives & the environment - they are pretty [email protected] with the economy too!.

Do you know if people had voted for policies rather than parties, the Greens would have won the General election  I find it strange how so many people vote against the best interests of the needy & the living planet & their own best interests too. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/pennie-varvarides/green-party-policy_b_6241234.html

I'm curious to know how you & @kimthecat would do in the survey?  https://voteforpolicies.org.uk/


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> *Well, I just made a fairly innocuous observation that some folks seem to be getting their
> t1ts off about it all*.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> .The falling pound is direct result of brexit


The pound isn't falling anymore it is on the rise. Currently it is £1 equals €1.19 (The pound live: https://www.poundsterlinglive.com). There is the arguement it was over inflated in the last couple of years anyway. €1 equals £0.84 pence
(http://www.x-rates.com/calculator/?from=EUR&to=GBP&amount=1) currently so the pound is still stronger than the Euro on the exchange rates.

I just wanted to point this fact out by the way. That's all.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Happy Paws said:


> I having been looking into that and can't find anything.


It's really easy to ignore a thread, you do it the old fashioned way and just don't look at it.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Thanks, but all credit goes to those dastardly experts for jolting us into reality.
> 
> lol So many lies on one meme I don't know where to begin. Why don't you fact check it HM?. You are being duped. You do know who Aaron Banks is?
> View attachment 301403
> 
> 
> Nothing to do with the hysteria. The falling pound is direct result of brexit - take overs are going to be the fall out.
> 
> Neoliberal economics has been a disaster not only for the masses but for the environment too. Even the IMF now agrees neoliberalism is failing. And many of the worlds leading economists agree with Corbyns economic policy - I'm sure you wouldn't tell them they were living in cloud cuckoo land, would you?
> 
> It would be CHEAPER for tax payers to renationalise railways. Privatisation means public money goes into private pockets- http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2012/03/rail-renationalise The tories are ramping up privatisation in the NHS - this is already proving to be a disaster! Fairer taxation means just that. Creating a tax haven means no money for the health service, no money for public services, the welfare state.
> 
> http://www.pieria.co.uk/articles/letter_to_the_ft_corbyns_economic_policies_are_sensible
> 
> *Letter to the FT: Corbyn's economic policies are sensible*
> 
> The recent statement from Jeremy Corbyn that "austerity is a policy choice not economic necessity" provides a welcome return to serious discussion in the Labour leadership debate. Therefore, the assertions that Corbyn is a "danger" who is causing harm to the Labour Party and the public in general is quite surprising and inappropriate (for example, see _FT View_15 August, that Mr Corbyn's candidacy brings "potential harm to...British public life").
> 
> Many of Corbyn's policies are advocated by prominent economists and commentators. An example is his proposal to fund public investment by the sale of bonds to the Bank of England. Yet, until now, politicians competing to hold the centre ground have largely ignored such policies or cast them as unthinkable.
> 
> Corbyn's proposals should be welcomed even by his opponents for stimulating serious discussion of crucial issues such as the role of the public sector in investment, management of debt and money, and how to tackle inequality. It is to Corbyn's credit that he has broadened the policy discussion so that the shared assumptions behind the narrow range of policies advocated by both the Conservative government and the other Labour leadership candidates are now being debated.
> 
> *Signed by the following teachers and researchers in economics:*
> 
> Victoria Chick, University College London
> 
> Susan Himmelweit, Open University
> 
> Malcolm Sawyer, University of Leeds
> 
> Annina Kaltenbrunner, University of Leeds
> 
> Gary Dymski, University of Leeds
> 
> Ruth Pearson, University of Leeds
> 
> Hugo Radice, University of Leeds
> 
> Ann Pettifor, Prime Economics
> 
> Jeremy Smith, Prime Economics
> 
> Steve Keen, Kingston University
> 
> Eva Karwowski, Kingston University
> 
> Engelbert Stockhammer, Kingston University
> 
> Alfredo Saad, SOAS
> 
> Guy Standing SOAS
> 
> John Weeks, SOAS
> 
> Carlos Oya, SOAS
> 
> George Irvin, SOAS
> 
> Ioana Negru, SOAS
> 
> Ioana Negru, SOAS
> 
> Chris Cramer, SOAS
> 
> Jo Michell, University of the West of England
> 
> Susan Newman, University of the West of England
> 
> Daniela Gabor, University of the West of England
> 
> Andrew Mearman, University of the West of England
> 
> Ozlem Onaran, University of Greenwich
> 
> Jeff Powell, University of Greenwich
> 
> Mehmet Ugur, University of Greenwich
> 
> Giovanni Cozzi, University of Greenwich
> 
> Maria Nikolaidi, University of Greenwich
> 
> Simon Mohun, Queen Mary University
> 
> Neil Lancastle, DeMontfort University
> 
> James Meadway, City University
> 
> John Grahl, Middlesex University
> 
> Rhys Jenkins, University of East Anglia
> 
> Jingoism makes me feel embarrassed.
> 
> It was a car crash interview, for which she apologised. I've seen plenty of politicians give car crash interviews over the years. Liz Truss has one every time she opens her mouth:Hilarious And has Theresa May given a straight answer to any question yet? lol. If only media would hold the tories to account on their dire policies. Their politics of greed have been devastating millions lives & the environment - they are pretty [email protected] with the economy too!.
> 
> Do you know if people had voted for policies rather than parties, the Greens would have won the General election  I find it strange how so many people vote against the best interests of the needy & the living planet & their own best interests too. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/pennie-varvarides/green-party-policy_b_6241234.html
> 
> *I'm curious to know how you & @kimthecat would do in the survey? * https://voteforpolicies.org.uk/
> 
> View attachment 301405


Noushka - I have followed your link to do the 'vote for policies' survey. When asked "which issues are important to you"? I selected everything, of course.

I was then informed that the survey would take 50 minutes to complete. So I guess we'll never know.


----------



## Satori

samuelsmiles said:


> Noushka - I have followed your link to do the 'vote for policies' survey. When asked "which issues are important to you"? I selected everything, of course.
> 
> I was then informed that the survey would take 50 minutes to complete. So I guess we'll never know.


The estimated time assumes you are a dimwit. Just did the survey. Takes 10 minutes.


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles said:


> Noushka - I have followed your link to do the 'vote for policies' survey. When asked "which issues are important to you"? I selected everything, of course.
> 
> I was then informed that the survey would take 50 minutes to complete. So I guess we'll never know.





Satori said:


> The estimated time assumes you are a dimwit. Just did the survey. Takes 10 minutes.


NOOooooit's so that only fanatics take it


----------



## samuelsmiles

Satori said:


> The estimated time assumes you are a dimwit. Just did the survey. Takes 10 minutes.


Well, come on then, reveal all. You're a closet Green, aren't you?


----------



## Satori

samuelsmiles said:


> Well, come on then, reveal all. You're a closet Green, aren't you?


No. If I were, it _*would*_ have taken 50 minutes. 

Ok..... I came out UKIP. Voted Tory though, and still would. This method of selecting a party by cross comparing policies cannot work. In practice one has to take the entire manifesto; it can't be bought in bits.

The amalgamated results of the survey are interesting though, and should send a rocket up the lefty parties if they were willing to listen. It only takes one or two repulsive policies and the rest of the manifesto goes in the bin with potential voters who otherwise might find that your policies resonate with them. Such was the case with the Greens.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, stockwellcat:

Is there a way to _*'ignore' *_an entire thread? ...
I cannot put up with this for two more plus years until the UK leaves the EU 

/QUOTE
.
.
yes, just un-subscribe from that thread. 
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Happy Paws:

I having been looking into [un-subbing] and can't find anything.

/QUOTE
.
.
at the top of each page above the 1st post's block outline, on every UPPER-RIGHT Corner is hypertext [a button] that says, *Unwatch Thread*
Click on it, & U are unsubscribed - it will no longer alert U to new comments, the thread will not show on Ur list of 'watched threads', etc.
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, stockwellcat:
> 
> Is there a way to _*'ignore' *_an entire thread? ...
> I cannot put up with this for two more plus years until the UK leaves the EU]


Perhaps not this thread, but what makes you think people will be quiet when Brexit finally happens?

Did people sit back and accept the Poll Tax when it was introduced?


----------



## KittenKong

Had to share this. A brilliant speech from the Lib Dem's Baroness Walmsley.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> A game of guess who.
> 
> Who is the boy with the circle around his head (no it's not me)?
> 
> Clues given upon request.
> 
> View attachment 301362


Thats you stockwell, id recognise you anywhere


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Thats you stockwell, id recognise you anywhere


Shocks.
Not me.
My school pictures are well hidden


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps not this thread, but what makes you think people will be quiet when Brexit finally happens?
> 
> Did people sit back and accept the Poll Tax when it was introduced?


And what makes you think the brexiters will sit back if it doesnt.
And as for poll tax I think it was a brilliant idea much fairer just wrongly orchestrated very unfair now how homeowners in more affulent areas paying much less in comparison then some of the deprived areas with lower priced property, mx.. And don't even start me on multiple occupancy where many houses are housing several working adults that are paying much less then just two OAP's living in their home of many years unfortunate enough to get nO council tax relief and paying much more for just the two of them.
Council tax needs a complete overhaul


----------



## Calvine

rottiepointerhouse said:


> you don't have to like it or approve of it but it is happening


Spot on, @rottiepointerhouse:...it is going to happen anyway, whether people like it or not, and when it does it makes far more sense for the country to be united and positive rather than divided, and (as @stockwellcat said) so constantly depressingly negative.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Spot on, @rottiepointerhouse:...it is going to happen anyway, whether people like it or not, and when it does it makes far more sense for the country to be united and positive rather than divided, and (as @stockwellcat said) so constantly depressingly negative.


Never in my name so don't expect me and so many others to suddenly rejoice with the Brexiteers when it happens because we won't.

We will not sit and accept it because "You won".

The "will of the people" voted in a Tory government in 1987 with the Poll Tax on the agenda. People didn't sit back and accept that did they when it was introduced.

The same will happen with Brexit when the reality hits them.

Perhaps a government of the future, certainly not this unelected UKIP type, will work with the EU, re join the EEA and restore some of the rights we'll be losing like the right to live and work within the block and the all important single market.

Then I might start feeling positive again.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong You don't realise how slim the vote differences are. In the other thread you said that England & Wales were mainly responsible for the leave vote, you were so wrong.

Northern Ireland Results:
Remain: 440,707
*Leave: 349,442*
Difference: 91,265

Scotland Results:
Remain: 1,661,191
*Leave: 1,018,322*
Difference: 642,869

Gibraltar Results:
Remain 19,322
*Leave 823*
Difference: 18,509

Source of information: http://www.electoralcommission.org....u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

Firstly if a future Government wanted to over turn the law that is currently being legislated through Parliament and House of Lords under the heading "The Article 50 Bill" they'd have to have a Referendum with the UK people first. Secondly if the UK people decided by a future Referendum to rejoin the EU or EEA the UK would be at the back of the queue behind Turkey to rejoin (currently as it stands or any other country at the back of the queue).

But this won't happen. People have waited 40 odd years to get the UK out of the EEC originally and now the EU.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Never in my name so don't expect me and so many others to suddenly rejoice with the Brexiteers when it happens because we won't.


@KittenKong: I am not expecting anything from you...I didn't say that I was, so there is no need for you to be on the defensive. I didn't quote you so chill out.. Be negative all you like; I truly don't give a monkey's. OK, if you don't want to accept it, please yourself; your choice.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Noushka - I have followed your link to do the 'vote for policies' survey. When asked "which issues are important to you"? I selected everything, of course.
> 
> I was then informed that the survey would take 50 minutes to complete. So I guess we'll never know.


No worries. TBH I'd have been surprised if you said you had done it


----------



## noushka05

So brexit doesn't mean we're going to cut immigration after all. What, exactly, are we being driven off a cliff for??









David Schneider


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> So brexit doesn't mean we're going to cut immigration after all. What, exactly, are we being driven off a cliff for??
> 
> View attachment 301424
> 
> David Schneider


And tomorrow the PM will probably slap down David Davis for saying what was reported in this news paper. We'll see what happens.

We aren't going over a cliffs edge. Only in your world we are.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Never in my name so don't expect me and so many others to suddenly rejoice with the Brexiteers when it happens because we won't.
> 
> We will not sit and accept it because "You won".
> 
> The "will of the people" voted in a Tory government in 1987 with the Poll Tax on the agenda. People didn't sit back and accept that did they when it was introduced.
> 
> The same will happen with Brexit when the reality hits them.
> 
> Perhaps a government of the future, certainly not this unelected UKIP type, will work with the EU, re join the EEA and restore some of the rights we'll be losing like the right to live and work within the block and the all important single market.
> 
> Then I might start feeling positive again.....


Were you saying the same about the government being unelected when Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair in an uncontested election to be party leader therefore PM? Very similar to the current situation with TM is it not?


----------



## stockwellcat.

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Were you saying the same about the government being unelected when Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair in an uncontested election to be party leader therefore PM? Very similar to the current situation with TM is it not?


@KittenKong
If I remember rightly in the UK we vote the political party into power, Prime Minister's come and go but the parties elected manifesto stays in force. The Conservatives were voted in, in 2015 so the Conservatives are the elected party and Theresa May is sticking to the Conservative Parties elected manifesto.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> And tomorrow the PM will probably slap down David Davis for saying what was reported in this news paper. We'll see what happens.


He will be forced to pick British crooked cucumbers....

Think all who seek sending EU workers back should stand up and train to be veg pickers, nurses, plumbers, math teachers and man SportDirect.
Prove your point, can you fix it?
Yes you can!!!!


----------



## noushka05

And it wont be the EU that will hammer the final nails in the UKs coffin.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> He will be forced to pick British crooked cucumbers....
> 
> Think all who seek sending EU workers back should stand up and train to be veg pickers, nurses, plumbers, math teachers and man SportDirect.
> *Prove your point, can you fix it?*
> Yes you can!!!!


Yeah I can fix it. Everyone looking for a job at the job centre well enough to work and claiming Job Seekers allowance there's jobs available go and get them or lose your benefits


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Yeah I can fix it. Everyone looking for a job at the job centre well enough to work and claiming Job Seekers allowance there's jobs available go and get them or lose your benefits


Tell that to " the people" and they might change their mind about Brexit pretty quickly...
You have been warned!

One week of teaching math in inner city might be enough.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Tell that to " the people" and they might change their mind about Brexit pretty quickly...
> You have been warned!
> 
> One week of teaching math in inner city might be enough.


Who's changing there minds though? Nobody on here has  Nobody I know has.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Who's changing there minds though? Nobody on here has  Nobody I know has.


Those who will - according to your wish be taken off benefits and put into strawberry fields forever.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Those who will according to your wish taken off benefits and put into strawberry fields forever.


Well they are moaning there aren't enough jobs around and now EU migrants are going back home there's jobs available, the jobs need filling, so long term Unemployed first (not those classed as unwell, I am meaning those on Job Seekers Allowance) and then all the others on Job Seekers Allowance should be offered the jobs that have become available


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> And tomorrow the PM will probably slap down David Davis for saying what was reported in this news paper. We'll see what happens.
> 
> *We aren't going over a cliffs edge. Only in your world we are*.


You think this because you don't want to know the truth. I trust (as always) the consensual position of experts. I have nothing but contempt for the bunch of crooks in government, never mind have any faith in them! I don't get hyped up by meaningless soundbites, I want facts & evidence. I'm not blinded by nationalism like you are. Brexit IS going to be a catastrophe & you will have to reflect in the not too distant future.


----------



## Happy Paws2

:YawnThis is getting :Bored


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Well they are moaning there aren't enough jobs around and now EU migrants are going back home there's jobs available, the jobs need filling, so long term Unemployed first and then all the others should be offered the jobs


Thought recently unemployment was at the lowest?
Do you expect that will change after Brexit?:-o
Tut, tut, Project Fear!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You think this because you don't want to know the truth. I trust (as always) the consensual position of experts. I have nothing but contempt for the bunch of crooks in government, never mind have any faith in them! I don't get hyped up by meaningless soundbites, I want facts & evidence. I'm not blinded by nationalism like you are. Brexit IS going to be a catastrophe & you will have to reflect in the not too distant future.


Yep the so called experts again who have got things wrong so far. Oh the GDP grew today by 0.7% the experts said this wouldn't happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Thought recently unemployment was at the lowest?
> Do you expect that will change after Brexit?:-o
> Tut, tut, Project Fear!


Wrong side of the debate. Cameron and Osborne were project fear.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> You think this because you don't want to know the truth. I trust (as always) the consensual position of experts. I have nothing but contempt for the bunch of crooks in government, never mind have any faith in them! I don't get hyped up by meaningless soundbites, I want facts & evidence. I'm not blinded by nationalism like you are. Brexit IS going to be a catastrophe & you will have to reflect in the not too distant future.


Wish Corbyn read your posts...abd agreed with them.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Wrong side of the debate. Cameron and Osborne were project fear.


And you by suggesting post Brexit unemployment just joined them!!!


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Spot on, @rottiepointerhouse:...it is going to happen anyway, whether people like it or not, and when it does it makes far more sense for the country to be united and positive rather than divided.


In your dreams with a hard Brexit.....



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Were you saying the same about the government being unelected when Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair in an uncontested election to be party leader therefore PM? Very similar to the current situation with TM is it not?


Agreed. The only difference is May's version is considerably more right wing than the Cameron era. Jeremy Corbyn didn't take over from Tony Blair mid term did he? What we've seen with the Conservatives is the right wing equivalent of that.


----------



## Colliebarmy

The public vote said leave, the commons said leave, the Lords almost said leave (but will) .... the message is....leave


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> @KittenKong: I am not expecting anything from you...I didn't say that I was, so there is no need for you to be on the defensive. I didn't quote you so chill out.. Be negative all you like; I truly don't give a monkey's. OK, if you don't want to accept it, please yourself; your choice.


That's a bit much. I only said the Farage/May hard Brexit will never unite the country.

Thank you for respecting my right not to accept it.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> In your dreams with a hard Brexit.....
> 
> Agreed. The only difference is May's version is considerably more right wing than the Cameron era. Jeremy Corbyn didn't take over from Tony Blair mid term did he? What we've seen with the Conservatives is the right wing equivalent of that.


No but Gordon Brown did  General election was 2005 with Blair as PM, Brown took over in 2007 but went on to lose the next election in 2010. So it is no different I'm afraid.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No but Gordon Brown did  General election was 2005 with Blair as PM, Brown took over in 2007 but went on to lose the next election in 2010. So it is no different I'm afraid.


As far as the change of leader is concerned I fully agree with you.

But Brown didn't ditch New Labour and form a hard left Socialist government which is the point I'm making.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> In your dreams with a hard Brexit.....
> 
> Agreed. The only difference is May's version is considerably more right wing than the Cameron era. Jeremy Corbyn didn't take over from Tony Blair mid term did he? What we've seen with the Conservatives is the right wing equivalent of that.


Jeremy Corbyn was elected though KK. He was democratically voted in by the people twice & given the biggest mandate twice. Apparently May hypocritically attacked Brown for having no mandate. Yet here we are about to be dragged over a cliff by her against a massive chunk of the populations will.

_







_


----------



## noushka05

*Theresa May must not sacrifice environmental laws after Brexit, warn leading climate groups*

The Greener UK coalition - comprised of 13 advocacy groups - says Britain is already failing in its duty to protect the environment http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...ent-laws-greenpeace-wwf-warning-a7592261.html


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-doctors-may-leave-uk-after-brexit-survey-bma


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> yes of course its a joke in very poor taste. You always find jokes funny when they're aimed at people who's view you disagree on . Sean Locke pretending to be a comedian is a joke , too
> 
> *Satire Definition*
> Satire is a technique employed by writers to expose and criticize foolishness and corruption of an individual or a society by using humor, irony, exaggeration or ridicule.
> 
> Well there you go , that's old foolish people for you !
> 
> Yes they did and more turned out to vote than youths and young adults . If the Youths had bothered to vote then perhaps the outcome would have been different , they weren't that concerned for their future. That 's youfs for you !


Just spotted this. This is not true at all. If I find it funny - I find it funny, doesn't matter who posted it. I laugh at loads @Satori & @DT's posts for example, I don't take offence when their jokes are aimed in my direction. Humour is subjective & I get theirs even when its against everything I believe in. I love a bit of good satire, it lightens the thread .


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 301462
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-doctors-may-leave-uk-after-brexit-survey-bma
> View attachment 301463


There is a comprehensive list of Press releases on the BMA site. Can you find one that says anything like that?

https://www.bma.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases

I found this, which doesn't seem quite the same but then I didn't go back far
https://www.bma.org.uk/news/media-c...bma-response-to-theresa-mays-speech-on-brexit

If you go back to June July of last year you may find something because of all the fear mongering that was going on at he time


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Thank you for respecting my right not to accept it.


@KittenKong: Not a problem; I am one of the few people on PF who understands what a forum is for.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Just spotted this. This is not true at all. If I find it funny - I find it funny, doesn't matter who posted it. I laugh at loads @Satori & @DT's posts for example, I don't take offence when their jokes are aimed in my direction. Humour is subjective & I get theirs even when its against everything I believe in. I love a bit of good satire, it lightens the thread .


I'm sure you do have a laugh sometimes. Im not going to scroll back and look at all the posts and cartoons to look at your likes . perhaps we don't have the same sense of humour because you got upset at a joke I made about reading your info and I had to apologise.

About the political survey , I cant be ar4sed to do it . Why are you interested in how i would "vote" in it ?


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> because you got upset at a joke I made about reading your info and I had to apologise.


Pulled that old chestnut again hey?

Wait until the it's making me ill all this, sympathy post come on...................


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> There is a comprehensive list of Press releases on the BMA site. Can you find one that says anything like that?


For that matter, unless I'm missing something, there's nothing to indicate things will improve post Brexit either.

I did see a report that states May needs to guarantee the rights of UK citizens which she has yet to do.

It could be too late. Many citizens already feel unwelcome and unappreciated due to the crime of not being British.

Who would blame them if they do leave for a country that welcomes them?

If it was me I wouldn't want to stay post Brexit even if they begged me to.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> I'm sure you do have a laugh sometimes. Im not going to scroll back and look at all the posts and cartoons to look at your likes . perhaps we don't have the same sense of humour because you got upset at a joke I made about reading your info and I had to apologise.
> 
> About the political survey , I cant be ar4sed to do it . Why are you interested in how i would "vote" in it ?


That wasn't satire, that was a personal dig. And that's why I don't take offence at DT & Satori, I appreciate wit. (& you didn't have to apologise)

You don't have to look for 'likes', I've stated it clealy on more then one occasion >>
Heres a couple of examples >



noushka05 said:


> Your sense of humour kills me sometimes:Hilarious


 this is in response to one of Satori's posts.



noushka05 said:


> I know lol. Satori does make me giggle a lot though, much as I hate to admit it  lol


As I said to Samuel, I would have been surprised if you had taken the survey lol I was curious if you were voting for partys over policies that's all. I have no interest in how you would actually "vote" though.



rona said:


> Pulled that old chestnut again hey?
> 
> Wait until the it's making me ill all this, sympathy post come on...................


Now this IS funny:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> That wasn't satire, that was a personal dig. And that's why I don't take offence at DT & Satori, I appreciate wit. (& you didn't have to apologise)


 You obviously dont understand witty rejoinders. You said yourself you were over sensitive.
i didn't have to apologise? ok I take it back .


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> You obviously dont understand witty rejoinders. You said yourself you were over sensitive.
> i didn't have to apologise? ok I take it back .


I was being polite because I was touched you apologised & I didn't want you to feel bad.

Fine.


----------



## noushka05

Nearly half EU doctors think of leaving -

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nearly-half-eu-doctors-think-of-leaving-vlmxn2dnb


----------



## kimthecat

Fair enough .

@noushka05 said
"As I said to Samuel, I would have been surprised if you had taken the survey lol I was curious if you were voting for partys over policies that's all. I have no interest in how you would actually "vote" though. "

Voting is easy . i just go dip , dip, dog sh*t, you are not it . It takes a while though and you get funny looks at the polling stations 

As I said before , my areas a safe seat , how I have voted hasn't made any difference. I've voted all sorts .


----------



## Zaros

Calvine said:


> whether people like it or not, Zaros does make sense.


_Hello Calvine_​







​PS; You'll no doubt notice I sneakily edited and then added my own name, but the rest of the text is definitely yours.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Pulled that old chestnut again hey?
> 
> Wait until the it's making me ill all this, sympathy post come on...................


 I have that to look forward too.


----------



## Happy Paws2

:Bored:Bored:Bored


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Fair enough .
> 
> @noushka05 said
> "As I said to Samuel, I would have been surprised if you had taken the survey lol I was curious if you were voting for partys over policies that's all. I have no interest in how you would actually "vote" though. "
> 
> Voting is easy . i just go dog dog , dog sh*t. you are not it . It takes a while though and you get funny looks at the polling stations
> 
> As I said before , my areas a safe seat , how I have voted hasn't made any difference. I've voted all sorts .


As I said I'm not interested in who you vote for. A lot of constituencies are safe seats & I think this is why we're in such a mess, as so many people automatically vote for the same party even if its against their own best interests to do so. Its the same situation over in the States. Ordinary people vote for the Republican party candidate even though it means they are voting away their right to health care, a habitable environment & so on. I makes no sense to me at all.



kimthecat said:


> I have that to look forward too.


I wouldn't hold your breath, I'm not the forum attention seeker


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> I wouldn't hold your breath, I'm not the forum attention seeker


 of course, you're not


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> of course, you're not


Well whatever you think of me I'm going to carry on regardless


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## noushka05

The big winners of Brexit? The experts charging up to $10,000 a day for their advice on it. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/22/...partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

All aboard the gravy train.

I thought we'd had enough of experts?.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


>


This has tickled me:Hilarious

Thank you x


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Just spotted this. This is not true at all. If I find it funny - I find it funny, doesn't matter who posted it. I laugh at loads @Satori & @DT's posts for example, I don't take offence when their jokes are aimed in my direction. Humour is subjective & I get theirs even when its against everything I believe in. I love a bit of good satire, it lightens the thread .


Oh heck so you are famous noush  May I have your autograph please didn,t know the orange man was making jokes in your direction


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Well whatever you think of me I'm going to carry on regardless


Don't you change noush. You,re perfect just the way you are well, almost, you are 99% perfect

If you wanna be 100%. Like Meeeeeeeeeeeee

Then you just have to switch to our side, the right side that is,. The brexiteeeeeers......


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> There is a comprehensive list of Press releases on the BMA site. Can you find one that says anything like that?
> 
> https://www.bma.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases
> 
> I found this, which doesn't seem quite the same but then I didn't go back far
> https://www.bma.org.uk/news/media-c...bma-response-to-theresa-mays-speech-on-brexit
> 
> If you go back to June July of last year you may find something because of all the fear mongering that was going on at he time


Fear mongering? Are you serious?? Actual doctors are sharing this information.

This is the end game for our NHS if people like you don't wake up pronto.






























DT said:


> Oh heck so you are famous noush Y May I have your autograph please didn,t know the orange man was making jokes in your direction


More like infamous

Twitler doesn't have a sense of humour, Sue. Sad!

(you should check out his tweets:Nailbiting)



DT said:


> Don't you change noush. You,re perfect just the way you are well, almost, you are 99% perfect
> 
> If you wanna be 100%. Like Meeeeeeeeeeeee
> 
> Then you just have to switch to our side, the right side that is,. The brexiteeeeeers......


No, you're alright, I'll try to live with my flaw


----------



## cheekyscrip

Do not blame the messenger.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 301512
> View attachment 301513
> View attachment 301514
> View attachment 301515


What p--s poor journalism - seriously her rottweiler guard dogs :Hilarious:Hilarious is that the best Ms Toynbee can come up with?


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> What p--s poor journalism - seriously her rottweiler guard dogs :Hilarious:Hilarious is that the best Ms Toynbee can come up with?


Thought it was a spot on interpretation of May actually. Then, there you go...


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
some recent polls, including weighted for familiarity / name recog vs Like / Dislike, by YouGov -
.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/02/22/labour-leadership-election-round-three-publics-vie/
.
.
Someone who is relatively unknown can be rated as "more likable" when in fact they're just an anonymous face.
Someone with high name-recognition may be despised even by ppl who don't know anything of their positions on various issues.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
if Brexit does go totally t!ts-up, U might think about moving here - but the commute's a bit long:
.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...ist-1-solar-system-announcement-a7594826.html
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 301577
> View attachment 301578
> View attachment 301579
> View attachment 301580
> View attachment 301581
> View attachment 301582


We'll see what the Lord's decide to do in two weeks when they vote on the Article 50 bill.

Those that choose to be hostile regarding Brexit as in being racist, xenophobic etc do not represent me. I did not vote leave because I am xeonphobic, racist etc I voted leave because I always said I would and I think the UK will be better off out of the organisation called the European Union (EU).

You ask that you are respected because you voted remain I ask you respect that I voted leave.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Morning all. 

This is optimistic news, isn't it? Maybe people will start talking like grown ups once the dust has settled.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 301583


So what? More people that actually bothered to vote, voted leave rather than remain. End of.


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles said:


> Morning all.
> 
> This is optimistic news, isn't it? Maybe people will start talking like grown ups once the dust has settled.


Personally I didn't think there was any doubt anyway.But hey, if Labour supporters want it to take the credit that's fine, they've got nothing else to crow about at the moment


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 301583


Would you really want the don't care voters voting anyway? Now that would have been a travesty. The countries future decided by the can't be bothered people


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 301583


So how should a referendum be done ?

A bigger percentage gap between the winners and losers maybe ?

Who are the millions who weren't asked ?


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> You ask that you are respected because you voted remain I ask you respect that I voted leave.


You ask that we respect the leave vote, well I do, I don't like it but '_Hay Oh'_ that's life.

It's just a shame that the leaves don't understand the way the remains feel about the betrail and lies that won your leave vote that we all will have to live with.

I just hope in future years you don't reget it, only time will tell, I'm just glad that at me age I wont be round long enough to find out the true out come and the mistakes Brexit will cause.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 301583


Who were the millions that never got asked?

If it was up to remainers they'd have Referendum after Referendum until the UK voted remain but this won't happen.

But why should another Referendum be granted? Here's the reasons why it shouldn't be allowed:
1) 20% could not be bothered voting
2) Some people didn't take the Referendum seriously.
3) Some people thought the Referendum was a joke.
4) Remain supporters voted leave thinking there vote wouldn't be taken into account.
5) Over 25 thousand people spoiled there ballot sheet by putting two x's on the sheet and had there votes rejected.
6) As pointed out in a previous post I made on this thread and another thread those areas (Scotland & Northern Ireland) that voted remain the differences between the vote remain and vote leave counts was slim except Gibraltar who had a majority vote to remain over vote leave.
7) The UK as a whole voted to leave and everyone was told over and over again that it was a once in a generation Referendum and it wouldn't be re-run.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> So how should a referendum be done ?
> 
> A bigger percentage gap between the winners and losers maybe ?
> 
> Who are the millions who weren't asked ?


I take it to mean many UK citizens living abroad for 15 years or more who were not entitled to vote despite the government working towards repelling the rule, but not in time for the referendum.

Some would also argue 16 and 17 year olds should have been allowed a say seeing this generation will be affected more than anyone else.

From what we saw during the EU referendum is exactly how a referendum shouldn't be held!

Yes, as I said before, due to the narrow leave victory a compromise that would suit most, (but not all of course), on both sides. The EEA option would still mean the UK leaves the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I take it to mean many UK citizens living abroad for 15 years or more who were not entitled to vote despite the government working towards repelling the rule, but not in time for the referendum.
> 
> Some would also argue 16 and 17 year olds should have been allowed a say seeing this generation will be affected more than anyone else.
> 
> From what we saw during the EU referendum is exactly how a referendum shouldn't be held!


@KittenKong They were the rules at the time of the Referendum.

What we saw in truth and reality was a slim majority in Scotland and Northern Ireland voted remain and some people did not take the Referendum seriously and voted leave because they thought there vote wouldn't count. We also saw 25 thousand ballot sheets rejected. 20% of people decided they couldn't be bothered to vote at all.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Thought it was a spot on interpretation of May actually.


@KittenKong: I think RPH was (possibly) referring to the fact that Rottweiler begins with a capital letter...or should. Like Afghan ... if they are named after a place, it's upper case.


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong Unfair that citizens abroad couldn't vote .

Maybe 17 year olds should have been allowed to vote but a fair amount of youths didnt vote .

We dont know how all these people would have vote , even if they had , Leave could still have won .

I think there should have been a bigger gap, say at least 60% to have voted Leave or Remain to win the Referendum but then again , what if that couldn't be achieved . I dunno . I think we should have another option of soft or hard Brexit .


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Who are the millions who weren't asked ?


No idea...let me know when you find out please? Merci bien (said that in French just to prove I am not xenophobic).


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> Who were the millions that never got asked?
> 
> If it was up to remainers they'd have Referendum after Referendum until the UK voted remain but this won't happen.
> 
> But why should another Referendum be granted? Here's the reasons why it shouldn't be allowed:
> 1) 20% could not be bothered voting
> 2) Some people didn't take the Referendum seriously.
> 3) Some people thought the Referendum was a joke.
> 4) Remain supporters voted leave thinking there vote wouldn't be taken into account.
> 5) Over 25 thousand people spoiled there ballot sheet by putting two x's on the sheet and had there votes rejected.
> 6) As pointed out in a previous post I made on this thread and another thread those areas (Scotland & Northern Ireland) that voted remain the differences between the vote remain and vote leave counts was slim except Gibraltar who had a majority vote to remain over vote leave.
> 7) The UK as a whole voted to leave and everyone was told over and over again that it was a once in a generation Referendum and it wouldn't be re-run.


It is seriously difficult to believe that so many idiots can inhabit one small island really!


----------



## rona

The by-elections go to prove that the electorate are against the far right


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> The by-elections go to prove that the electorate are against the far right


How?
Conservatives won Copeland by-election which Labour have held since 1935 and had a bigger majority by any of the contending parties.

Labour retained Stoke but was over minus 2 percent. If there was a general election Lib Dems would win this area.

Watching states on Sky News.



















































http://news.sky.com/story/stoke-central-by-election-labour-beats-ukip-leader-paul-nuttall-10779400


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> The by-elections go to prove that the electorate are against the far right


The tories have adopted most of UKIPs policies yet the msm still paint them as centre right when they are hard right.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> How?
> Conservatives won Copeland by-election which Labour have held since 1935 and had a bigger majority by any of the contending parties.
> 
> Labour retained Stoke but was over minus 2 percent. If there was a general election Lib Dems would win this area.
> 
> Watching states on Sky News.
> 
> *Copeland:*
> View attachment 301584
> 
> View attachment 301585
> 
> 
> *Stoke:*
> View attachment 301586
> 
> View attachment 301587


Ukip failed, so to all those that keep saying that we are becoming a racist country heading toward a Trump outlook .........it's not true just cos some of the press say so


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong Unfair that citizens abroad couldn't vote .
> 
> Maybe 17 year olds should have been allowed to vote but a fair amount of youths didnt vote .
> 
> We dont know how all these people would have vote , even if they had , Leave could still have won .
> 
> I think there should have been a bigger gap, say at least 60% to have voted Leave or Remain to win the Referendum but then again , what if that couldn't be achieved . I dunno . I think we should have another option of soft or hard Brexit .


Of course Leave could still have won had 16-17 year olds had the right to vote. I know some in their twenties who voted leave.

The UK citizens abroad could have shifted the vote the other way. Then I'm sure those who backed leave would then argue they should have been denied the vote if they don't live in the UK!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> How?
> Conservatives won Copeland by-election which Labour have held since 1935 and had a bigger majority by any of the contending parties.
> 
> Labour retained Stoke but was over minus 2 percent. If there was a general election Lib Dems would win this area.
> 
> Watching states on Sky News.
> 
> *Copeland:*
> View attachment 301584
> 
> View attachment 301585
> 
> 
> *Stoke:*
> View attachment 301586
> 
> View attachment 301587


The tories will see this as a green light to carry on privatising our NHS. The people of Copeland will live to regret voting them in when they close their hospital.


----------



## CuddleMonster

There is no way of having a completely fair referendum. Even if 16 & 17 year-olds had been allowed to vote, what about those under 16 who would be affected too?

A bit like the Scottish referendum. Scottish people living outside Scotland weren't allowed to vote, but non-Scottish people living there were, even if they were only going to be living there short-term. There's no such thing as a society that is equally fair to everyone.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Of course Leave could still have won had 16-17 year olds had the right to vote. I know some in their twenties who voted leave.
> 
> The UK citizens abroad could have shifted the vote the other way. Then I'm sure those who backed leave would then argue they should have been denied the vote if they don't live in the UK!


But why should those that have lived in a country on the Continent for 15 years+ be entitled to vote in a Referendum when they clearly have made that other country home and they don't live in the UK or don't contribute to the UK way of life anymore by paying taxes and national insurance etc?

Also you have to be registered in the UK at a UK address to be entitled to vote in any Election or Referendum in the UK so they wouldn't have been allowed to participate in the Referendum anyway.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Ukip failed, so to all those that keep saying that we are becoming a racist country heading toward a Trump outlook .........it's not true just cos some of the press say so


You just had to look at the images of Trump and May together. They do appear to share similar views on matters like immigration.

The red, white and blue Brexit suddenly made sense. Doesn't have to imply the Union flag. What colours are the stars and stripes?

Yes, you could say Blair's first meeting with GW Bush was equally nauseous. I would agree with that. I remember how uncomfortable I was seeing them together.
To say I was right to have felt this way was an understatement seeing what their "special relationship" resulted in.....


----------



## KittenKong

CuddleMonster said:


> There is no way of having a completely fair referendum. Even if 16 & 17 year-olds had been allowed to vote, what about those under 16 who would be affected too?
> 
> A bit like the Scottish referendum. Scottish people living outside Scotland weren't allowed to vote, but non-Scottish people living there were, even if they were only going to be living there short-term. There's no such thing as a society that is equally fair to everyone.


Then it could be argued citizens from the EU who'd lived in the UK for more than five years should have been allowed the vote in that case!


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Ukip failed, so to all those that keep saying that we are becoming a racist country heading toward a Trump outlook .........it's not true just cos some of the press say so


The tories & ukip are now virtually indistinguishable - two hard right parties. Ukip voters are going to the tories.

This is good


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Then it could be argued citizens from the EU who'd lived in the UK for more than five years should have been allowed the vote in that case!


This has been discussed before.
Have you run out of new things to debate as you are going over old ground?


----------



## noushka05

CuddleMonster said:


> There is no way of having a completely fair referendum. Even if 16 & 17 year-olds had been allowed to vote, what about those under 16 who would be affected too?
> 
> A bit like the Scottish referendum. Scottish people living outside Scotland weren't allowed to vote, but non-Scottish people living there were, even if they were only going to be living there short-term. There's no such thing as a society that is equally fair to everyone.


16 & 17 year olds are old enough to get married. They should also be allowed to have some say in their countrys future. The consequences of brexit will affect the younger generation the most.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> The tories & ukip are now virtually indistinguishable - two hard right parties. Ukip voters are going to the tories.
> 
> This is good
> View attachment 301590


I always thought UKIP would have dissolved back in to the Tory party to form a hard right Tory government following their referendum success.

Sadly they didn't need to, they became hard right only through UKIP influence without needing the army of former Tories.

I still reckon within a couple of years UKIP will dissolve back in the Tory party.

Definitely the Tories own "Militant Tendency"!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I always thought UKIP would dissolve back in to the Tory party to form a hard right Tory government.
> 
> Sadly they didn't need to, they became hard right only through UKIP influence without needing the army of former Tories.
> 
> I still reckon within a couple of years UKIP will dissolve back in the Tory party.
> 
> Definitely the Tories own "Militant Tendency"!


Yes I think that was obvious. Ukip has served its purpose now. It only existed to take the political debate even further to the right. That's why it was funded by tories & crammed with tories.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> You just had to look at the images of Trump and May together. They do appear to share similar views on matters like immigration.


Yes, you can tell that just by looking at their photograph.

You aren't Derren Brown in RL are you?


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> Ukip failed, so to all those that keep saying that we are becoming a racist country heading toward a Trump outlook .........it's not true just cos some of the press say so


Bullseye.

The by-election results seem to demonstrate that normal working people want mature government of the centre ground.

ETA: Yaay. Post #6000. What do I win?


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> No idea...let me know when you find out please? Merci bien (said that in French just to prove I am not xenophobic).


 Ah vous parlez Francais ! Sprechen sie deutsch ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Yaay. Post #6000. What do I win?


Congratulations and well done on being the poster of post #6000


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Ah vous parlez Francais ! Sprechen sie deutsch ?


Spreek je Nederlands


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> The tories will see this as a green light to carry on privatising our NHS. The people of Copeland will live to regret voting them in when they close their hospital.


Even if Labour had won , the Tories would still close it . I bet at the next election , they will vote Labour back in .


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> Spreek je Nederlands


 Only Double Dutch


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Ah vous parlez Francais ! Sprechen sie deutsch ?


Ja, ich spreche auch deutsch...war ein Jahr auf der Universitat von Wurzburg!


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> The by-elections go to prove that the electorate are against the far right


Glad to see UKIP didnt win.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> 16 & 17 year olds are old enough to get married.


With parental consent surely? Maybe Scotland is different?


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Ja, ich spreche auch deutsch...war ein Jahr auf der Universitat von Wurzburg!


I'm impressed ! I never went to university so i only know a few words .
Ich habe einen hund is my limit . :Smuggrin


----------



## KittenKong

From the BBC:


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> From the BBC:
> 
> View attachment 301595


Well the remain campaigners (Cameron and co) spent the most on that ridiculous £9+ million reasons to remain booklet they sent through the post. Just in case you forgot what it looks like here it is:










http://ww.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/35980571


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> Well the remain campaigners (Cameron and co) spent the most on that ridiculous £9 million reasons to remain booklet they sent through the post. Just in case you forgot what it looks like here it is:
> 
> View attachment 301598
> 
> 
> http://ww.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/35980571


 But the fact is, @stockwellcat, they sent them to 27 million homes...and then reckoned it cost _only 34p per home_. The postage would be way more than that, then add to that the cost of printing 27 million booklets...plus admin plus other sundry expenses. It doesn't add up if you do the maths.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> But the fact is, @stockwellcat, they sent them to 27 million homes...and then reckoned it cost _only 34p per home_. The postage would be way more than that, then add to that the cost of printing 27 million booklets...plus admin plus other sundry expenses. It doesn't add up if you do the maths.


True. You're right there.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well the remain campaigners (Cameron and co) spent the most on that ridiculous £9 million reasons to remain booklet they sent through the post. Just in case you forgot what it looks like here it is:
> 
> View attachment 301598
> 
> 
> http://ww.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/35980571


Agree, disastrous too as it turned out. As a strongly pro EU supporter I found it cringe worthy.

It probably backfired too with remain being seen by some as a Tory campaign and leave mistaken for Labour (the red banner, bus and leaflets were significant).

It'll be interesting to see what the Electoral Commission come up with for both campaigns.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Calvine said:


> @KittenKong: I think RPH was (possibly) referring to the fact that Rottweiler begins with a capital letter...or should. Like Afghan ... if they are named after a place, it's upper case.


No I was referring to the cliche stereo typical use of the breed to back up her story line. From the breed club

With the coming of the railways in the 19th century, cattle herding was forbidden by law and the Rottweiler was then without an occupation. He became used as a draught dog by butchers, and even today when he is no longer used for pulling these little carts, his name continues to be linked with that of the butcher.

He became known as Rottweil Butcher's Dog and later this was shortened to Rottweiler. The butcher used the larger dogs for pulling carts and the smaller ones for herding and driving cattle. After the driving of cattle was forbidden the Rottweiler population declined sharply and in 1905 there was only one bitch to be found in the whole of Rottweil.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Well the remain campaigners (Cameron and co) spent the most on that ridiculous £9+ million reasons to remain booklet they sent through the post. Just in case you forgot what it looks like here it is:
> 
> View attachment 301598
> 
> 
> http://ww.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/35980571


People actually _read _that? Mine went straight in the recycling - and the best place for it!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> People actually _read _that? Mine went straight in the recycling - and the best place for it!


Mine went into recycling as well.


----------



## Honeys mum

Jesthar said:


> People actually _read _that? Mine went straight in the recycling - and the best place for it!


Ours got posted straight back to them, which a lot of people did.


----------



## Calvine

A lot of people sent it back...not to Downing St but to Conservative HQ as it was a freepost address!!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> You just had to look at the images of Trump and May together


I saw a fairly uncomfortable pair of people. What did you see?



Jesthar said:


> People actually _read _that? Mine went straight in the recycling - and the best place for it!


I did, had a good laugh too, along side the disgust


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I saw a fairly uncomfortable pair of people. What did you see?


I thought they looked very comfortable together, the holding of hands said it all, but some would say that was to "steady" him. I guess only Trump and May know the real reason for that.

The time I thought May looked uncomfortable was when she was asked if she agreed with Trump's muslim ban, where she refused to say either way.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> I thought they looked very comfortable together, the holding of hands said it all, but some would say that was to "steady" him. I guess only Trump and May know the real reason for that.
> 
> The time I thought May looked uncomfortable was when she was asked if she agreed with Trump's muslim ban, where she refused to say either way.


What does holding of hands say to you?


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
re Trumpling & hand-holding, i wouldn't draw any conclusions from that -
OrangeMan seems to have trouble letting go of his victims, plz see video of him & PM Abe of Japan - he takes his hand, shakes it, HOLDS it, pats it with the other hand, pulls him in for a quiet remark up-close, & *continues *to hold his hand.
Meanwhile, Abe looks more & more uncomfortable until he's finally released. It's a very odd sequence.
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> What does holding of hands say to you?


I thought it looked inappropriate seeing you wouldn't expect to see Trump holding hands with a male, steadying or otherwise.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Now he wants to embrace EU...


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
Trumpster changes his mind anytime the wind blows; don't look for consistency. 
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May overjoyed for defeating Labour in Copeland by-election. Labour have held this seat since 1935 and it is the first time that a party in Government has won a seat from the opposition for 35 years (1982).

Well done Theresa May and the Conservatives, she and the Conservatives showed the so called experts were wrong again.








Theresa May's victory speech in Copeland today: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/video/com...victory-for-the-people-of-copeland/vp-AAnjKi5


----------



## KittenKong

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> Trumpster changes his mind anytime the wind blows; don't look for consistency.
> .
> .
> .


Yes, reminds me of the time Johnson suddenly and unexpectedly praised immigration and vowed to offer amnesty to any illegals already in the UK.

Don't believe a word of it.......


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> I thought it looked inappropriate seeing you wouldn't expect to see Trump holding hands with a male, steadying or otherwise.


Why wouldn't you? Holding hands or should I say holding onto someone's hand can be for any number of reasons, doesn't have to be sexual or affectionate.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Why wouldn't you? Holding hands or should I say holding onto someone's hand can be for any number of reasons, doesn't have to be sexual or affectionate.


True. I didn't think Trump was frail though!


----------



## KittenKong

This was the 4-page advertising spread I saw on the bus a few days before the vote.


----------



## Calvine

I read a few times that President Trump suffers from bathmophobia which is a fear of stairs (not a fear of baths, altho' he may well have a fear of those too). This is why he sometimes has to hold on to a hand...


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> People actually _read _that? Mine went straight in the recycling - *and the best place for it!*


How would you know if you didn't read it?


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> It is seriously difficult to believe that so many idiots can inhabit one small island really!


And even more difficult to think many of those idiots are members of pf


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> 16 & 17 year olds are old enough to get married. They should also be allowed to have some say in their countrys future. The consequences of brexit will affect the younger generation the most.


Too young in my view, didn't they lower it from 21 to 18 next someone will be suggesting let them vote when they start wearing big trousers


----------



## Zaros

DT said:


> And even more difficult to think many of those idiots are members of pf









:Hilarious​


----------



## kimthecat

@Zaros I shouldn't encourage you but :Hilarious . Thanks for the laugh today


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Why wouldn't you? Holding hands or should I say holding onto someone's hand can be for any number of reasons, doesn't have to be sexual or affectionate.


Some people have very narrow minds rot tie, I see no wrong it it either


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Some people have very narrow minds rot tie, I see no wrong it it either


Oh...but if you think WHERE that tiny hand might just have been!!!!


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh...but if you think WHERE that tiny hand might just have been!!!!


I think where everyone's hands been cheeky, children, up their noses, do you know my best friend stood markets nearly all her life, she stood next to a veg man, he told her he used to put a penny up his bum crack and would give it to anyone he took a dislike too waiting for small change, I've never looked at any fruit and veg man the same since.


----------



## kimthecat

*Carnivorous Corner*‏@*plantsthateat*  4h4 hours ago

#*CorbynMustStay* or #*CorbynMustGo*? Vote then RT.

48%Corbyn Must Stay
52%Corbyn Must Go

you know , those results remind me of some other vote . Hmm. Can't think what ! :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> *Carnivorous Corner*‏@*plantsthateat*  4h4 hours ago
> 
> #*CorbynMustStay* or #*CorbynMustGo*? Vote then RT.
> 
> 48%Corbyn Must Stay
> 52%Corbyn Must Go
> 
> you know , those results remind me of some other vote . Hmm. Can't think what ! :Hilarious


Definitely not a result to unite the Labour.

Labour might fall behind LibDem if carries on like that ..


----------



## cheekyscrip

Quelle surprise!!!.So who bankrolled Farage and Brexit?

American billionaire....and you did not believe me that you just have to follow The Money?
Now guess why that sudden generosity?


----------



## Happy Paws2

:Bored


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> :Bored


What does this emoticon mean ?


----------



## stuaz

kimthecat said:


> What does this emoticon mean ?


Bored.


----------



## kimthecat

stuaz said:


> Bored.


 oh right . I couldn't guess it . Its not a very good one .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> oh right . I couldn't guess it . Its not a very good one .


If you hover the cursor over them it tells you what they are


----------



## Honeys mum

Theresa May poised to announce end of free movement for new EU migrants next month

This is in most of the papers this morning.


----------



## Happy Paws2

She says it's not true, but the no smoke with out a fire. Or is it what someone would say Fake News


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> Theresa May poised to announce end of free movement for new EU migrants next month
> 
> This is in most of the papers this morning.


Very one sided though isn't it? Little mention of UK citizens wishing to emigrate within the EU's rights ending too which will be the inevitable result. Some talk of the possibility of UK citizens being allowed individual EU membership, but speculation at the moment so I'm not building my hopes up too much.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Very one sided though isn't it? No mention of UK citizens wishing to emigrate within the EU's rights ending too which will be the inevitable result.
> 
> Very sad indeed.....


The negotiations are going to be one sided, not the UK's side.

You can move to anywhere you want to in the world, you will still be able to move to any European country as long as you abide to that countries laws.


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> She says it's not true,[/QUOTE
> 
> Do you mean T.M. has said that, If so I would be interested to know where you saw that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> ATTACH=full]301854[/ATTACH]
> View attachment 301854


The catch is you'll have to be living in a European country on the continent to retain your EU citizenship and there is a rush at the moment for UK citizens living in Germany to get German citizenship, catch is you have to renounce your UK citizenship.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> What does this emoticon mean ?


''Bored''...just loiter over it and it tells you!!  I didn't know either.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> The catch is you'll have to be living in a European country on the continent to retain your EU citizenship and there is a rush at the moment for UK citizens living in Germany to get German citizenship, catch is you have to renounce your UK citizenship.


One wonders how things will be in 15 or so years time. Will UK citizens on an average pension be permitted to retire to the sun? Will renouncing UK citizenship result in the loss of the right to a UK state pension?

The relevant bodies must be making a fortune out of people applying for citizenship. I understand in the UK many EU citizens have already been rejected.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> One wonders how things will be in 15 or so years time. Will UK citizens on an average pension be permitted to retire to the sun? Will renouncing UK citizenship result in the loss of the right to a UK state pension?


You can claim UK state pension anywhere in the world. Links are contained in a post I previously put up. You will be able to claim state pension in any European country, you have to declare it as income to the tax office of that country as you do at the moment. This isn't going to change. You can claim UK state pension anywhere in the world.

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/how-to-claim

There has been no change to the rights and status of EU nationals in the UK, and UK nationals in the EU, as a result of the referendum

You can claim State Pension abroad if you've paid enough UK National Insurance contributions to qualify.

Get a State Pension statement if you need to find out how much State Pension you may get.

*Make a claim*
You must be within 4 months of your State Pension age to claim.

To claim your pension, you can either:

contact the International Pension Centre
send the international claim form to the International Pension Centre (the address is on the form)
*If you live part of the year abroad*
You must choose which country you want your pension to be paid in. You can't be paid in one country for part of the year and another for the rest of the year.

*Bank accounts your pension can be paid into*
Your State Pension can be paid into:

a bank in the country you're living in
a bank or building society in the UK
You can use:

an account in your name
a joint account
someone else's account - if you have their permission and keep to the terms and conditions of the account
You'll need the international bank account number (IBAN) and bank identification code (BIC) numbers if you have an overseas account.

You'll be paid in local currency - the amount you get may change due to exchange rates.

*When you'll get paid*
You can choose to be paid every 4 or 13 weeks.

If your State Pension is under £5 per week, you'll be paid once a year in December.

*Delays to payments around US bank holidays*
If you live abroad and your payment is due in the same week as a US bank holiday, it could arrive one day late. This is because a US company processes these payments.

Your State Pension will only increase each year if you live in:

the European Economic Area (EEA)
Switzerland
countries that have a social security agreement with the UK (but you can't get increases in Canada or New Zealand)
You won't get yearly increases if you live outside these countries.

Your pension will go up to the current rate if you return to live in the UK.

*3. Paying tax*

How much tax you'll pay and where you pay it depends on where you're considered to be a resident.

*UK residents*
You may have to pay UK tax on your State Pension if you live abroad but are classed as a UK resident for tax purposes. The amount you pay depends on your income.

*Overseas residents*
You may be taxed on your State Pension by the UK and the country where you live. If you pay tax twice, you can usually claim tax relief to get all or some of it back.

If the country you live in has a 'double taxation agreement' with the UK, you'll only pay tax on your pension once. This may be to the UK or the country where you live, depending on that country's tax agreement.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> ''Bored''...just loiter over it and it tells you!!  I didn't know either.


oh yeah


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> You can claim UK state pension anywhere in the world. Links are contained in a post I previously put up. You will be able to claim state pension in any European country, you have to declare it as income to the tax office of that country as you do at the moment. This isn't going to change. You can claim UK state pension anywhere in the world.


Yes, but how does that work out if people are made to renounce their UK citizenship in order to live in another country, EU or otherwise?

As I understand it people are currently entitled to dual citizenship in some countries. I've not been aware of anyone having to renounce their UK citizenship in order to live abroad.

Still, 15 years is still a long way off. Perhaps the UK will have re-joined the EEA by then!


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/27/rejections-eu-citizens-seeking-uk-residency


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Will renouncing UK citizenship result in the loss of the right to a UK state pension?


No. Even today you don't have to be a UK citizen to claim UK state pension.


----------



## cheekyscrip

So if not WTO? Where that lands Brexit? No deal and no rules?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> She says it's not true, but the no smoke with out a fire. Or is it what someone would say Fake News


Fake news as defined it the news that Trump does not agree with.
No one would bankroll Brexit just to help poor suppressed British natives...
Out of sheer sympathy for their plight.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> *Fake news as defined it the news that Trump does not agree with.*


It was just a Joke!!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> It was just a Joke!!!!


And that one too


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear, on the day we hear the government are proposing more spending cuts I'm alerted to this:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...it-says-australian-foreign-minister-1.2988051


----------



## noushka05

I suspect this has been posted somewhere already, but in case it hasn't - well said John Major & thank you for defending us remoaners! (not often I've agreed with him on anything )


----------



## noushka05

According to _real _experts, this is going to be a very, very big deal.

Tax changes could cost UK public sector workers 30% of salary. https://www.theguardian.com/society...or-workers-salary-exodus-nhs?CMP=share_btn_tw

Hundreds of thousands of agency workers could see cut in take-home pay, risking exodus from NHS and other services


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear, on the day we hear the government are proposing more spending cuts I'm alerted to this:
> 
> http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...it-says-australian-foreign-minister-1.2988051
> 
> View attachment 301956
> View attachment 301957


Seems a sensible move. She also had meetings with Boris and David Davis, and Oh dear she actually said after visiting US and meeting Tillerson, that there was a strong US/ Aus Alliance and they are a close friend.

That was on her own page, not from the press


----------



## cheekyscrip

Every bit of his speech makes sense.
Tory or not.









Brexit will benefit Ireland, Malta , and many billionaires from America, USA or wherever.v
But not ordinary people living in UK, British or EU.


----------



## rona

Says the man who fooled his wife for 4 years 

They screwed us while in the EU, they'll work out a way to screw us outside. Morals don't seem to exist in the world of big business and politics


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 301961


Another EX Prime Minister bleeting.

He's an ex Prime Minster for a reason, if I remember he took over when Maggie Thatcher left and was useless. He was the PM when the Maastricht treaty was being debated. The Maastricht treaty paved the way for the EU being formed. I am still annoyed the UK never got a Referendum to become an EU member.

In my view he is in the same category at Tony Blair and because of this I have no interest in what he has to say.


----------



## kimthecat

"Julie bishop told the Irish times that *uncertainty *surrounding Brexit " Again it's uncertainty that causes nations to consider alternatives.

Brexit no Brexit , the Government proposing more cuts would still happen .


----------



## rona

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-taxpayers-for-polo-trip-20170110-gtp7dm.html

"Julie Bishop is the latest Turnbull government minister facing scrutiny over taxpayer-funded travel claims, amid growing calls for an overhaul of politicians' travel expenses.

The Foreign Affairs Minister charged taxpayers $2716 to attend the Portsea Polo event on Victoria's Mornington Peninsula in January last year as a guest of beer maker Peroni and car company Jeep."

As I said, no morals


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> I suspect this has been posted somewhere already, but in case it hasn't - well said John Major & thank you for defending us remoaners! (not often I've agreed with him on anything )
> 
> View attachment 301958


He sounds like a typical remoaner to me. He should just keep quiet and toe the line.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Brexit no Brexit , the Government proposing more cuts would still happen .


The thing is, it was believed by many that the government would have £350m per week extra to spend!

I bet they didn't expect further austerity....


----------



## stockwellcat.

This amendment to the article 50 bill has been rejected/voted against in the House of Lords:

UK keeping single market access after Brexit.

The Lord's voted 299 against the amendment and only 136 for the amendment that's a majority of 163.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> The thing is, it was believed by many that the government would have £350m per week extra to spend!
> 
> I bet they didn't expect further austerity....


 True but that's not really my point. Is Brexit to blame for further austerity by the Tory government? 
Blame the Tories for using it as an excuse not Brexit . 
Many who voted Brexit didn't vote for a Tory government.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> True but that's not really my point. Is Brexit to blame for further austerity by the Tory government?
> Blame the Tories for using it as an excuse not Brexit .
> Many who voted Brexit didn't vote for a Tory government.


But Brexit will be very costly and economy will shrink so cuts will have to cover that 60 bln?
Logic. No matter who is in power if economy shrinks then there is NO MONEY!

It shrank already. Pound fell. Now businesses are feeling the pinch.
But no worries for FTSE. They would be just fine.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Says the man who fooled his wife for 4 years
> 
> They screwed us while in the EU, they'll work out a way to screw us outside. Morals don't seem to exist in the world of big business and politics


Should we instead listen to that paragon of virtue and honesty; Boris?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Should we instead listen to that paragon of virtue and honesty; Boris?


No, the model husband Farage ...


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Should we instead listen to that paragon of virtue and honesty; Boris?


No, listen to your own conscience

I am as certain as I can be that I've done the right thing. Others are just as convinced I've done wrong


----------



## cheekyscrip

Please, read. This is reality. Those jobs, those taxes will go soon to EU, not to our budget. London was to became centre of e finance. No more.
It is just easier to move computers than to wait and pay for new license.
I see talks going with Malta and Hong Kong, preparations are on the way...in this case I can confirm it is happening. Exodus will start in 2018.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> No, listen to your own conscience
> 
> I am as certain as I can be that I've done the right thing. Others are just as convinced I've done wrong


Financial companies think it is better to move, that means money is moving out of Britain, out of our budget.
Making Britain much poorer.
That is reality.
Is it right to make your own country and your own people poorer?
Less money in the budget for health care, education , environment protection etc...
How that can be right?


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Please, read. This is reality. Those jobs, those taxes will go soon to EU, not to our budget. London was to became centre of e finance. No more.
> It is just easier to move computers than to wait and pay for new license.
> I see talks going with Malta and Hong Kong, preparations are on the way...in this case I can confirm it is happening. Exodus will start in 2018.
> View attachment 301995


Well Phil Smith says that Simon Black is totally wrong.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Please, read. This is reality. Those jobs, those taxes will go soon to EU, not to our budget. London was to became centre of e finance. No more.
> It is just easier to move computers than to wait and pay for new license.
> I see talks going with Malta and Hong Kong, preparations are on the way...in this case I can confirm it is happening. Exodus will start in 2018.
> View attachment 301995


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
well, frankly, I'll believe *Beaker* - even if his hand is stuck in an electrical outlet --- before i believe the delusional claptrap about how everything is gonna be rainbows & free lollies, full employment & the NHS in the black, profitable trade-deals & no business exodus.
.
It's the same B-S Donald's shoveling stateside when he claims we CAN cut taxes on the uberwealthy, AND spend record amounts on the military [which doesn't contribute to the domestic economy], AND strip the working poor of the ACA health-care insurance, AND clearcut our remaining forests, AND dump coal-mining waste into our streams & waterways, AND have no pollution controls on industry, AND discard the Federal regulations on the financial corporations, AND have everyone "back to work, again".
.
it's a spiraling downward suction of lies, feeding lies, necessitating more lies & bigger lies - & it's going to suck the U-S economy right down the toilet.
.
We've done this several times in my lifetime, now - it never works out well, especially for me - as i'm not among the uberwealthy whose taxes will be cut, whose dividends will grow, & whose water will continue to run clear & pure from the tap. :Rage
I'm one of the poor suckers whose taxes will go up, wages will fall or disappear completely, & my tentative foothold on the ladder of the economy will be brutally yanked out from under me.  Been there, done that. & i've still got the Goddam t-shirt.
.
.
.


----------



## Zaros

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> well, frankly, I'll believe *Beaker* - even if his hand is stuck in an electrical outlet --- before i believe the delusional claptrap about how everything is gonna be rainbows & free lollies, full employment & the NHS in the black, profitable trade-deals & no business exodus.
> .
> It's the same B-S Donald's shoveling stateside when he claims we CAN cut taxes on the uberwealthy, AND spend record amounts on the military [which doesn't contribute to the domestic economy], AND strip the working poor of the ACA health-care insurance, AND clearcut our remaining forests, AND dump coal-mining waste into our streams & waterways, AND have no pollution controls on industry, AND discard the Federal regulations on the financial corporations, AND have everyone "back to work, again".
> .
> it's a spiraling downward suction of lies, feeding lies, necessitating more lies & bigger lies - & it's going to suck the U-S economy right down the toilet.
> .
> We've done this several times in my lifetime, now - it never works out well, especially for me - as i'm not among the uberwealthy whose taxes will be cut, whose dividends will grow, & whose water will continue to run clear & pure from the tap. :Rage
> I'm one of the poor suckers whose taxes will go up, wages will fall or disappear completely, & my tentative foothold on the ladder of the economy will be brutally yanked out from under me.  Been there, done that. & i've still got the Goddam t-shirt.
> .
> .
> .


So, how did you vote in the Referendum?

Were you a remainer come remoaner

Remoaner Lisa, Remoaner Lisa, men have named you 
You're so like the lady with the mystic smile
Is it only 'cause you're lonely they have blamed you?
For that Remoaner Lisa strangeness in your smile?

Do you smile to tempt a lover, Remoaner Lisa?
Or is this your way to hide a broken heart?
Many dreams have been brought to your doorstep
They just lie there and they die there
Are you warm, are you real, Remoaner Lisa?
Or just a cold and lonely lovely work of art?

Remoaner Lisa.....Remoaner Lisaaaaaaaaaaaa.


----------



## samuelsmiles

"In July 1932 Hitler won 37% of the vote, took power, and abolished democracy...sound familiar?

This is what AC Grayling, intellectual, philosopher, anti brexit campaigner and hero of the left wing luvvies has recently posted on Twitter. What a dick.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Tell me who bankrolled Brexit and I will tell you who will #take control of our country.

Politicians are no more than loudspeakers ...








I cannot post link, but easy to find. 
If anyone can embed it , thanks.

If you find reading it uncomfortable, then call it " fake news".


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 302005​


No. Time to revise stupidity of Brexit.
You may not see any links between closing businesses in London and lack of money for your operation in hospital in Piddlington Magna, but I do.

Unless like some of our members you have nice packet in Swiss bank etc..you should be freaking out.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Well Phil Smith says that Simon Black is totally wrong.


I know you know more....


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Tell me who bankrolled Brexit and I will tell you who will #take control of our country.
> 
> Politicians are no more than loudspeakers ...
> View attachment 302019
> 
> I cannot post link, but easy to find.
> If anyone can embed it , thanks.
> 
> If you find reading it uncomfortable, then call it " fake news".


https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/pe.../mysterious-dup-brexit-donation-plot-thickens


----------



## kimthecat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39123604
The government is facing a first defeat for its Brexit bill in the House of Lords later.

Peers are expected to agree to amend the draft legislation to protect the rights of EU citizens living in the UK.

Home Secretary Amber Rudd had sought to reassure members that EU nationals' status would be a priority once Brexit talks begin.

But a cross-party amendment calling for a firm guarantee is expected to secure the backing of most peers.

If this happens, MPs could remove the Lords' proposed changes again when the bill moves back to the House of Commons.

The bill authorises the government to trigger Article 50.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39123604
> The government is facing a first defeat for its Brexit bill in the House of Lords later.
> 
> Peers are expected to agree to amend the draft legislation to protect the rights of EU citizens living in the UK.
> 
> Home Secretary Amber Rudd had sought to reassure members that EU nationals' status would be a priority once Brexit talks begin.
> 
> But a cross-party amendment calling for a firm guarantee is expected to secure the backing of most peers.
> 
> If this happens, MPs could remove the Lords' proposed changes again when the bill moves back to the House of Commons.
> 
> The bill authorises the government to trigger Article 50.


If this happens then this amendment goes back to Parliament to be voted on again by MP's and if they reject it, it goes back to Lords and they vote on it again and this keeps happening until either the House of Lords or Parliament given in. This is called the ping pong stage.

This was rejected by 332 to 290 in Parliament (majority 42) on the 9th February 2017. Let's see if the majority is bigger in the House of Lords.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Lord's are also planning a rebellion on the Gibraltar amendment as well. But again this amendment was rejected in Parliament 338 to 288 (majority 50) on the 9th February 2017. Again this will probably ping pong between both houses.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> True but that's not really my point. Is Brexit to blame for further austerity by the Tory government?
> Blame the Tories for using it as an excuse not Brexit .
> Many who voted Brexit didn't vote for a Tory government.


No, I'm not blaming Brexit for austerity. The thing is, some believed the EU itself was responsible, having allegedly cost the UK £350m a week!

So, many will be asking where's the alleged £350m going to be spent on?

The last thing they'll expect is further austerity.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> No, listen to your own conscience
> 
> I am as certain as I can be that I've done the right thing. Others are just as convinced I've done wrong


I may not like the way the vote went but I would never describe anyone's decision as 'right' or 'wrong'.

The 'facts' that influenced some people were wrong, but I'm sure everyone voted in good faith.


----------



## cheekyscrip

WTO rules if Britain has to fall on them mean giving away Gibraltar and Falklands. 
So much for #taking control and " making Britain Great again".
View attachment 302038

How patriotic. Those who died to defend those lands died for nothing.
View attachment 302038















Basically Britain at mercy of Argentina and Spain. They now take it fir granted that if we want frontier open we must accept Spanish sovereignty.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Government have been defeated in the House of Lords on the amendment relating to EU Citizens rights resident in the UK after Brexit.

Contents 358
Not Content 256
Majority: 102

Amendment 9b has been voted in favour by the Lords to be added to the Article 50 bill.

*What happens now?*
This amendment goes back to Parliament to be voted on and now goes into the Ping Pong stage between the two houses.

*Is Theresa May still on track to trigger Article 50 on the 31st March 2017?*
Yes providing the Government doesn't get defeated on any further amendments.

The Lord's are now debating the Euratom amendment.


----------



## stockwellcat.

> The government will seek to overturn the House of Lords defeat on the Brexit bill in the Commons, government sources said.


http://www.theguardian.com/politics...k-postponed-until-early-october-politics-live


----------



## cheekyscrip

Guaranteed rights of EU nationals? Instead of instant deportation or at least some camps, must be such a blow...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Guaranteed rights of EU nationals? Instead of instant deportation or at least some camps, must be such a blow...


Not really a blow. The House of Parliament make the laws see attached document. The amendment goes into what is called the Ping Pong stage so the Lord's vote can be over turned which the Government intends to do.

Article 50 is not delayed it is still on course to be triggered on the 31st March 2017.

The Lord's by the way are the unelected Peers.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Euratom Amendment was withdrawn in the House of Lords. The announcement was so quick I almost missed it.

So the Euratom Amendment from what I gather has been dismissed by the House of Lords.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Guaranteed rights of EU nationals? Instead of instant deportation or at least some camps, must be such a blow...


@cheekyscrip: No-one I know wants them deported or incarcerated. Do you honestly know anyone who does? Shall we have a poll and find out how many PF members want to deport EU nationals? I would hope this will work both ways tho' regarding UK citizens in the EU.
The Lords get £300 a day expenses, boy they must be loving this!!


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> The Lord's by the way are the unelected Peers.


@stockwellcat: ...mainly cronies who happen to get £300 a day expenses.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> @cheekyscrip: No-one I know wants them deported or incarcerated. Do you honestly know anyone who does? Shall we have a poll and find out how many PF members want to deport EU nationals? I would hope this will work both ways tho' regarding UK citizens in the EU.
> The Lords get £300 a day expenses, boy they must be loving this!!


At the same time though I don't want UK nationals who have decided to adopt European countries as there new home deported and this is why I am against this amendment. I think this needs to be challenged with the EU as a priority when they start the negotiations not put on the Article 50 bill. This isn't using the EU nationals as bargaining chips because the same could be said about UK nationals living in European Countries.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> At the same time though I don't want UK nationals who have decided to adopt European countries as there new home deported and this is why I am against this amendment. I think this needs to be challenged with the EU as a priority when they start the negotiations not put on the Article 50 bill. This isn't using the EU nationals as bargaining chips because the same could be said about UK nationals living in European Countries.


I would hope it works both ways...but I'm not sure I trust Brussels.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> I would hope it works both ways...but I'm not sure I trust Brussels.


Another reason not to allow this amendment.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Can Brussels trust UK? I do not think anyone ever called to deport British nationals from EU?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I do not think anyone ever called to deport British nationals from EU?


Urrmm yes there has been rumour they are planning to do this in retaliation for the UK exercising it's right to leave the EU under the EU's own treaties. Yes some European countries are planning to throw UK citizens out of there countries.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> @cheekyscrip: No-one I know wants them deported or incarcerated. Do you honestly know anyone who does? Shall we have a poll and find out how many PF members want to deport EU nationals? I would hope this will work both ways tho' regarding UK citizens in the EU.
> The Lords get £300 a day expenses, boy they must be loving this!!


Many Lords have enough of own dosh.
Must generally noblesse oblige anyhow...
As to hmmm..pf members...I had few surprises already... 
It is a bit like the Jewish question...maybe not personally involved...but happy to look the other way... 
Imagine British people like me expelled from Gibraltar as soon as Spain grabs it....in retaliation....

How close to ethnic cleansing?

Impossible? What about pleasant European, cultured Serbia...not long ago?


----------



## Honeys mum

Calvine said:


> .mainly cronies who happen to get £300 a day expenses.


This is a petiton that's going around.

Replace the unelected House of Lords with a publicly elected body - Petitions


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Urrmm yes there has been rumour they are planning to do this in retaliation for the UK exercising it's right to leave the EU under the EU's own treaties. Yes some European countries are planning to throw UK citizens out of there countries.


Only if British start doing it to their citizens. 
Have you ever found any such plans before Brexit and threatening EU nationals living in Britain?
What are your sources?


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> This is a petiton that's going around.
> 
> Replace the unelected House of Lords with a publicly elected body - Petitions


That is the most British body...House of Lords...
Very quaint indeed.

Not en par with the Farage and his ilk.

Poor Nigel ...not even knighthood...

That reminds me somehow how German aristocracy felt about Hitler...
But got fairly soon beaten into submission, so do.not lose heart.

Do not trust Brussels. They can actually bite back.
Oh, and take over your car industry.
(Mini, Ford, Nissan twitching to move to EU).


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> This is a petiton that's going around.
> 
> Replace the unelected House of Lords with a publicly elected body - Petitions


Signed


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> That is the most British body...House of Lords...
> Very quaint indeed.
> 
> Not en par with the Farage and his ilk.
> 
> Poor Nigel ...not even knighthood...
> 
> That reminds me somehow how German aristocracy felt about Hitler...
> But got fairly soon beaten into submission, so do.not lose heart.
> 
> Do not trust Brussels. They can actually bite back.
> Oh, and take over your car industry.
> (Mini, Ford, Nissan twitching to move to EU).


The Lord's are unelected. They get paid £300 each per day just for showing up in the House of Lord's, they don't have to go into the chamber to discuss anything. Biggest waste of tax payers money by far.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


>


That respect for your own longest serving body...
Oh, but Lords are so anti British and certainly interested in Britain failing.
Just for 300 pieces of silver...
Farage represents the Britain First so much better.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> That respect for your own longest serving body...


Actually the House of Commons is.


> Oh, but Lords are so anti British m Theu cer


The Lord's isn't needed and is a big waste of tax payers money. Unelected Peers, paid £300 each per day just for showing up in the House of Lords (by tax payers) not in the Chamber's and most of them are retired on huge pensions.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Actually the House of Commons is.
> 
> The Lord's isn't needed and is a big waste of tax payers money.


So is the Queen then?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Farage represents the Britain First so much better.


Your arguements seem to be getting desperate.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Your arguements seem to be getting desperate.


You meant arguments?

Ever thought that Lords cannot just blatantly lie that Brexit is good for Britain ?
They are not just party donors loudspeakers.

Some may not even think about next career move , or OBE etc...
That Britain has to come with good will towards EU nationals for the starters. 
With respect they deserve no less than anyone with British citizenship.
Would you like to be treated as second class citizens anywhere in the world? 
Below "the natives"?


----------



## FeelTheBern

cheekyscrip said:


> So is the Queen then?


I think so!


----------



## Calvine

Honeys mum said:


> This is a petiton that's going around.
> 
> Replace the unelected House of Lords with a publicly elected body - Petitions


 Thank you @Honeys mum: I looked for it and it had been rejected, but I think possibly a few were started simultaneously. I will take another look.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> You meant arguments?


And they accuse me of being ''grammar police''!!


----------



## Honeys mum

Calvine said:


> Thank you @Honeys mum: I looked for it and it had been rejected, but I think possibly a few were started simultaneously. I will take another look.


It' definately still be going Calvine' as I signed it and the number of signitures yesterday was 44,000+' and this morning it's 53.000+.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> It is a bit like the Jewish question...maybe not personally involved...but happy to look the other way...


@cheekyscrip: well, I do agree with you on that. There are (much) older Germans today who still deny what happened in Germany. When I was at school, a friend of mine and I went to stay with a host family in Arnsberg (Westfalen) where the parents totally denied, until they were blue in the face, what happened, despite a photo in their drawing room of Dad (Vati) or maybe his brother dressed in what looked to us very much like a Nazi uniform.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> And they accuse me of being ''grammar police''!!


She picks on my grammar because she is running out of things to debate on


----------



## Calvine

Honeys mum said:


> It' definately still be going Calvine' as I signed it and the number of signitures yesterday was 44,000+' and this morning it's 53.000+.


@Honeys mum: thank you


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> showing up in the House of Lords


@stockwellcat:...and sleeping, if photos are anything to go by.


----------



## Honeys mum

Calvine said:


> @stockwellcat:...and sleeping, if photos are anything to go by.


Like this, Calvine, and getting paid £300 a day for it. Can't be a bad job.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> At the same time though I don't want UK nationals who have decided to adopt European countries as there new home deported and this is why I am against this amendment. I think this needs to be challenged with the EU as a priority when they start the negotiations not put on the Article 50 bill. This isn't using the EU nationals as bargaining chips because the same could be said about UK nationals living in European Countries.


But they aren't bargaining chips, they are real people with homes, jobs, children, and plans in this country.
This country is or was known worldwide as free and fair, that's why so many want to come here and that's why we need some control over who does, but this is a step too far.
We don't practice torture and this is basically mental torture for those that are already here trying to carry on with their lives


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> But they aren't bargaining chips, they are real people with homes, jobs, children, and plans in this country.
> This country is or was known worldwide as free and fair, that's why so many want to come here and that's why we need some control over who does, but this is a step too far.
> We don't practice torture and this is basically mental torture for those that are already here trying to carry on with their lives


The UK citizens in European countries are real people with jobs and families as well yet the EU won't guarantee there status. This goes both ways.

It was revealed yesterday in the House of Lords it is Germany that are refusing to do the above.


----------



## Calvine

Honeys mum said:


> Like this, Calvine, and getting paid £300 a day for it. Can't be a bad job.


@Honeys mum: Where do we go to sign up? I could manage that for less than 300 a day! Even the ones who are vaguely awake appear not to be listening...what a cushy number.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> This goes both ways


@stockwellcat : it is to be hoped so.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> The UK citizens in European countries are real people with jobs and families as well yet the EU won't guarantee there status. This goes both ways.
> 
> It was revealed yesterday in the House of Lords it is Germany that are refusing to do the above.


Two wrongs don't make a right, and when have we ever taken our own morals from another country, let alone Germany?

This tit for tat is demeaning


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> @stockwellcat : it is to be hoped so.


The Lord's were saying yesterday that Brussel's refuse to comment on UK citizens right of stay in the EU after the UK leaves until Article 50 is triggered.

@rona So what's your take on this? Imagine you are living in France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands etc and you have been told your right of stay in the EU is at risk and you may lose your job, split from your European partner and the way of life you have built up over there and have to come back to the UK? The UK will then have 3 million plus EU migrants plus all those UK citizens arriving from Europe after having there right of stay rejected. Is it fair that the EU citizens stay in the UK and UK citizens aren't allowed to stay in various European countries?


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right, and when have we ever taken our own morals from another country, let alone Germany?
> 
> This tit for tat is demeaning


Well this is were Brussel's should step in and guarantee UK citizens rights after Brexit. The UK is ready to negotiate this now but the EU don't want to it is them being unfair not the UK.


----------



## Calvine

I know it does sound a bit like exchanging hostages or spies, but we have to be fair to everyone.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> @rona So what's your take on this? Imagine you are living in France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands etc and you have been told your right of stay in the EU is at risk and you may lose your job, split from your European partner and the way of life you have built up over there and have to come back to the UK? The UK will then have 3 million plus EU migrants plus all those UK citizens arriving from Europe after having there right of stay rejected. Is it fair that the EU citizens stay in the UK and UK citizens aren't allowed to stay in various European countries?


Fair has nothing to do with it. 
If the EU or countries within have no morals then it will prove us right to get out. However, this country has become something of a moral compass over the last couple of centuries and to lose that would be extremely sad.
Messing with peoples lives like that is despicable.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The UK's responsibilities rely with UK citizens in the EU first and foremost.

The only why UK citizens are finding they can stay in the EU is to get dual nationality or denouncing there UK citizenship for the country they are residing in to be able to stay in the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Fair has nothing to do with it.
> If the EU or countries within have no morals then it will prove us right to get out. However, this country has become something of a moral compass over the last couple of centuries and to lose that would be extremely sad.
> Messing with peoples lives like that is despicable.


Vice versa as well the EU messing with UK citizens rights is morally wrong to.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> Well this is were Brussel's should step in and guarantee UK citizens rights after Brexit. The UK is ready to negotiate this now but the EU don't want to it is them being unfair not the UK.


You aren't getting my point. They should never be seen as bargaining chips in the first place, no matter who they are, if they are already settled in a country


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> Vice versa as well the EU messing with UK citizens rights is morally wrong to.


Yes it is, but that still doesn't make us right to do the same, it's just as equally wrong


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> They should never be seen as bargaining chips in the first place


No they shouldn't, and I see your point, but the right to stay in UK or EU should be reciprocal surely?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Vice versa as well the EU messing with UK citizens rights is morally wrong to.


Seeing the EU's point of view UK citizens have voted to end their rights as EU citizens on voting to leave. They must be prepared to be deported back to the UK if this government insists on deporting EU citizens.

I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that.


----------



## Honeys mum

Calvine said:


> @Honeys mum: Where do we go to sign up? I could manage that for less than 300 a day! Even the ones who are vaguely awake appear not to be listening.


Sounds like a good idea Calvine.Count me in on that as well.Ito would be happy with less, and to be able to nod off as well would be the ideal job.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

If we haven't left the EU yet , why has he been refused for permanent residence? 
It must be under EU laws. 
Great shame though . What happened to human rights? I'm sure not long ago I read that someone was allowed to stay because h e proved he had a life here , he owned a cat ?



KittenKong said:


> View attachment 302094
> View attachment 302095
> View attachment 302096
> View attachment 302097


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> If we haven't left the EU yet , why has he been refused for permanent residence?
> It must be under EU laws.
> Great shame though . What happened to human rights? I'm sure not long ago I read that someone was allowed to stay because h e proved he had a life here , he owned a cat ?


I took it to mean he must have a French passport which is valid EU wide. Now the UK are leaving he must've attempted to become a UK citizen which was rejected, so he may have become an "illegal" immigrant post Brexit. I think more UK than EU law. All about getting their country back apparently....


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong OIC Very unfair. I dont know what the criteria is to become a British citizen .
I think it should be enough he is married to a british citizen , its obviously not a marriage of convenience,


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I took it to mean he must have a French passport which is valid EU wide. Now the UK are leaving he must've attempted to become a UK citizen which was rejected, so he may have become an "illegal" immigrant post Brexit. I think more UK than EU law. All about getting their country back apparently....


You will find those that have been in the UK 5 years plus from the EU are being advised to prove they have been here for this period of time so they can get a right to stay. They have been sent an 85 page form which was said yesterday they do not need to complete all 85 pages it is more important that they prove they have been here for 5 plus years. Those that are refusing to complete the form or produce the documents asked for are leaving the UK via there own free will, they were given the opportunity to be granted a right of stay in the UK.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> he owned a cat


I read that too @kimthecat: he and his male partner (both Iraqi I believe) said that their life was here, they belonged to a gym (!) and had adopted a cat. The fact that they were gay and might be persecuted if they returned did not seem to be the main concern...it was the cat that featured mainly.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I took it to mean he must have a French passport which is valid EU wide. Now the UK are leaving he must've attempted to become a UK citizen which was rejected, so he may have become an "illegal" immigrant post Brexit. I think more UK than EU law. All about getting their country back apparently....


One wonders why he hadn't applied before. Maybe like one of my clients, he didn't want to?



stockwellcat said:


> You will find those that have been in the UK 5 years plus from the EU are being advised to prove they have been here for this period of time so they can get a right to stay. They have been sent an 85 page form which was said yesterday they do not need to complete all 85 pages it is more important that they prove they have been here for 5 plus years. Those that are refusing to complete the form or produce the documents asked for are leaving the UK via there own free will, they were given the opportunity to be granted a right of stay in the UK.


My client hasn't been made to apply for permanent residency and has just this week renewed her right to stay in this country with no issues whatsoever.
One wonders what all the back stories are of those others.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
M Pollet has _"...worked in the UK for over 20-years." _ --- Do U think he telecommuted?  Don't be daft.
.
The article says he applied for citizenship & was refused it; therefore, he, his UK-born wife, & their UK-born 2-year-old are leaving.
They won't be the only ones in those circs who decide that living elsewhere is a safer option than risking separation.
.
.
.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> One wonders why he hadn't applied before. Maybe like one of my clients, he didn't want to?
> 
> My client hasn't been made to apply for permanent residency and has just this week renewed her right to stay in this country with no issues whatsoever.
> One wonders what all the back stories are of those others.


Perhaps like the government at the time they didn't think the UK would leave the EU, who knows.....


----------



## cheekyscrip

As Britain leaves, because wants to, it would be very wise to start with good will to EU and protection for EU nationals living in UK ( hoping that it should be reciprocated).

We are leaving so that is only fair to those who live in UK that they are welcome like before.

To next party my friends would all wear national costume inspired clothes, we are proud of who we are and not hiding.
Mine is the prettiest I think...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> As Britain leaves, because wants to, it would be very wise to start with good will to EU and protection for EU nationals living in UK ( hoping that it should be reciprocated ).
> 
> We are leaving so that is only fair to those who live in UK that they are welcome like before.
> 
> To next party my friends would all wear national costume inspired clothes, we are proud of who we are and not hiding.
> Mine is the prettiest I think...
> View attachment 302116


Very nice of you to think this but what if it isn't reciprocated and the EU decide to stuff UK nationals living in the EU good and proper? What then?

The UK should wait and see what the EU are going to do first before acting. The amendment should be overturned and the Article 50 bill put through with no amendments.

My opinion and I am entitled to it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Very nice of you to think this but what if it isn't reciprocated and the EU decide to stuff UK nationals living in the EU good and proper? What then?
> 
> The UK should wait and see what the EU are going to do first before acting. The amendment should be overturned and the Article 50 bill put through with no amendments.
> 
> My opinion and I am entitled to it.


Entitled? UK is leaving not being kicked out? So the first move is not on Brussels? 
Entitled to threaten or deport those who came , settled legally, invested, worked hard ? 
What wrong with you?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Entitled? UK is leaving not being kicked out? So the first move is not on Brussels?
> Entitled to threaten or deport those who came , settled legally, invested, worked hard ?
> What wrong with you?


No one is threatening to throw EU citizens out. It's called waiting and seeing what the other side decide what to do. It is the EU that is being difficult as they refuse to secure UK citizens rights in the EU and this isn't tit for tat. It's called being logical. The people that are leaving the UK are leaving of there own accord no one is forcing them.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> It is the EU that is being difficult as they refuse to secure UK citizens rights in the EU and this isn't tit for tat. It's called being logical.


Tell that to the people who don't know if they are going to be allowed to stay or not. Just put yourself in their shoes for a moment


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Tell that to the people who don't know if they are going to be allowed to stay or not. Just put yourself in their shoes for a moment


So gambling with those lives is ok?
Those people have families, mortgage to pay, kids at school, their dogs, their cats and so on...
Then you also gamble with lives of all Brits abroad. Including Gibraltar.
Quid pro quo.
That is Trump's mentality. That is disgusting way of thinking.
It will not benefit Britain, it will not benefit you then.
Plus law does not work backwards. Who came in legally and had rights to stay cannot have them revoked.


----------



## cheekyscrip

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Tell that to the people who don't know if they are going to be allowed to stay or not. Just put yourself in their shoes for a moment


Same can be said in all fairness @rona and @cheekyscrip with UK citizens living on the Continent. You make it sound as if it one way it isn't as UK citizens are worried if they can stay in the country they have made home in Europe, they to would be losing jobs, family, homes etc if the EU decide not to grant a stay.

As I said before, the Government has sent an 85 page document to those EU citizens that are entitled to a right of stay in the UK but some of them are refusing to fill it in and instead are returning home voluntarily.

I am not debating on this all night as no one knows what is going to happen until article 50 is triggered and the negotiations start.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Same can be said in all fairness @rona and @cheekyscrip with UK citizens living on the Continent. You make it sound as if it one way it isn't as UK citizens are worries if they can stay in the country they have made home in Europe, they to would be losing jobs, family, homes etc if the EU decide not to grant a stay.


UK citizens would have no reason to worry if not for Brexit? 
Hard Brexit followed by now crash Brexit?
With UK threatening EU nationals?
It is incredible that now you try to blame the other side?

How dare they reciprocate! We are BRITISH!!!

Did EU ever before complained about masses of Brits and that it has to be stopped?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> UK citizens would have no reason to worry if not for Brexit?
> Hard Brexit followed by now crash Brexit?
> With UK threatening EU nationals?
> It is incredible that now you try to blame the other side?
> *How dare they reciprocate! We are BRITISH!!!*


The highlighted bit is your opinion. Not mine.

It's incredible how niave you are.

UK citizens do have to worry living in the EU as several countries are threatening to throw them out in revenge for the UK using its right to leave the EU which is written and intrenched in EU treaties.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think Brexit is going to get very nasty.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> The highlighted bit is your opinion. Not mine.
> 
> It's incredible how niave you are.
> 
> UK citizens do have to worry living in the EU as several countries are threatening to throw them out in revenge for the UK using its right to leave the EU which is written and intrenched in EU treaties.


Threat and counter threat.........tit for tat.........ruddy stupid state of affairs.........you'd think we were in a school playground, but this is peoples lives 

Surely the UK could be the bigger (person) country?


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Threat and counter threat.........tit for tat.........ruddy stupid state of affairs.........you'd think we were in a school playground, but this is peoples lives
> 
> Surely the UK could be the bigger (person) country?


What's the harm in waiting a month or so until the negotiations begin what's the rush? We have two years plus of negotiations yet.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> What's the harm in waiting a month or so until the negotiations begin what's the rush? We have two years plus of negotiations yet.


Because those people are worried


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Because those people are worried


So are UK citizens on the continent.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
today, Northern Ireland loses 18 MPs - 1 from each constituency.
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_Members_(Reduction_of_Numbers)_Act_(Northern_Ireland)_2016
.
I do wonder if they could, or would, negotiate separately to remain in the EU, or at least the EEC.
.
.
.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> So are UK citizens on the continent.


So we should reassure them all and say that those that are already here can stay


----------



## stuaz

The UK should guarantee the people living in this country who are contributing to the country. 

Set the example to the world, that the UK is a fair and open welcoming country that we know it is.


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> today, Northern Ireland loses 18 MPs - 1 from each constituency.
> .
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_Members_(Reduction_of_Numbers)_Act_(Northern_Ireland)_2016
> .
> I do wonder if they could, or would, negotiate separately to remain in the EU, or at least the EEC.
> .
> .
> .


No they didn't.
Northern Ireland are having an Assembly Election today: http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/new...pected-at-some-polling-stations-35495537.html I should know my Grandmother, Uncles, Aunties, Cousins and Nephews are all voting in it. They have to form a Government otherwise it will go back to direct rule from Westminster.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
the Assembly Members Act// Reduction of Numbers Act of 2016 was rescinded? - When, please?
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> .
> the Assembly Members Act// Reduction of Numbers Act of 2016 was rescinded? - When, please?
> .
> .
> .


If you look back through the thread wikipedia is not a reliable source of information. I was told off for using it over and over again by remoaners.


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> .
> the Assembly Members Act// Reduction of Numbers Act of 2016 was rescinded? - When, please?
> .
> .
> .


They need an active Assembly in Northern Ireland and they don't have one at the moment. This election is to try and form a new assembly if they fail in two weeks time Westminster will take direct rule via emergency legislation and the devolved powers revoked. Everyone in Northern Ireland are not wanting Westminster to take direct rule but don't want the current parties in power in Northern Ireland because over the years there has been to much in fighting amongst the parties. It's a very difficult situation.


----------



## cheekyscrip

No one in EU wants to kick Brits out in revenge.
Only and only if Britain starts being nasty others will obviously act the same.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> No one in EU wants to kick Brits out in revenge.
> Only and only if Britain starts being nasty others will obviously act the same.


Well TM has said over and over again the UK has no intention of throwing anyone out of the UK but Germany is hampering the UK securing up anyone's rights, this was revealed in the House of Lords yesterday. Germany are refusing to allow this to be sorted out now and have said we have to wait for the negotiations to start. Germany is one of several countries taking the same stance.

You forget UK citizens are at risk of losing there homes, jobs, partners, lives in other European countries as well. The rights of UK citizens will change as well as the current rights won't apply when the UK leaves the EU.


----------



## Milliepoochie

cheekyscrip said:


> So gambling with those lives is ok?
> Those people have families, mortgage to pay, kids at school, their dogs, their cats and so on...
> Then you also gamble with lives of all Brits abroad. Including Gibraltar.
> Quid pro quo.
> That is Trump's mentality. That is disgusting way of thinking.
> It will not benefit Britain, it will not benefit you then.
> Plus law does not work backwards. Who came in legally and had rights to stay cannot have them revoked.
> View attachment 302122


Indeed Cheeky - pawn pieces in a big psychological game.

The thing is all these intelligent Drs / managers / Vets / Scientists / Researchers who all pay taxes may well decide they have had enough of this rubbish and don't feel happy choosing the UK with it current ethos as a place they want to bring up their families and I say good on them.

I wouldn't get aggravated / upset - I have come to learn unless you are a EU migrant directly effected then most don't understand how it feels.

It's not that your going to wake up to immigration officer at your door but the way these legally entitled people are being used in a big psychological game.

It will not benefit Britain in the long run as you say x x x


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, stockwellcat:

... Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information. I was told off for using it...

/QUOTE
.
.
Like this one better, eh?...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/nia/2016/29/pdfs/nia_20160029_en.pdf
.
.
on that PDF it reads, 
_"1. - (1) In section 33(2) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (*numbers of members returned for each constituency*), *for 'six' substitute 'five'*. _

_(2) *The amendment* made by subsection (1) *does not have effect until the first Assembly election after the 2016 election*."_
_._
Presumably that's TODAY's election?...
--------------------------------------------------------------
.
.
also, on the home page of the bill, it says, QUOTE, 
_*'Changes to legislation:*
There are currently no known outstanding effects for the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Act (Northern Ireland) 2016.'
._
IOW, it's not been rescinded - it's still a current Act, & its substance is unaltered.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, stockwellcat:
> 
> ... Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information. I was told off for using it...
> 
> /QUOTE
> .
> .
> Like this one better, eh?...
> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/nia/2016/29/pdfs/nia_20160029_en.pdf
> .
> .
> on that PDF it reads,
> _"1. - (1) In section 33(2) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (*numbers of members returned for each constituency*), *for 'six' substitute 'five'*. _
> 
> _(2) *The amendment* made by subsection (1) *does not have effect until the first Assembly election after the 2016 election*."_
> _._
> Presumably that's TODAY's election?...
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> .
> .
> also, on the home page of the bill, it says, QUOTE,
> _*'Changes to legislation:*_
> _There are currently no known outstanding effects for the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Act (Northern Ireland) 2016.'_
> _._
> IOW, it's not been rescinded - it's still a current Act, & its substance is unaltered.
> .
> .
> .


So it doesn't affect anything though. I don't see your point. They are doing the same thing in the UK in a few years time when the constituency boundaries change. Labour will lose the most seats when this happens.

It doesn't mean Northern Ireland will rejoin with the Republic of Ireland. There is no appetite for this in Northern Ireland but they can do it if the people wish under the Good Friday Agreement (but they don't want to). Northern Ireland don't want a border poll (this is the Referendum to join Northern Ireland with the Republic of Ireland). Then again they don't want a hard border either so this is for the EU to sort out with the UK Government.

EU Referendum results Northern Ireland:
Remain: 440,707
Leave: 349,442
Difference: 91,264
Source of information: http://www.electoralcommission.org....u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information


----------



## cheekyscrip

Milliepoochie said:


> Indeed Cheeky - pawn pieces in a big psychological game.
> 
> The thing is all these intelligent Drs / managers / Vets / Scientists / Researchers who all pay taxes may well decide they have had enough of this rubbish and don't feel happy choosing the UK with it current ethos as a place they want to bring up their families and I say good on them.
> 
> I wouldn't get aggravated / upset - I have come to learn unless you are a EU migrant directly effected then most don't understand how it feels.
> 
> It's not that your going to wake up to immigration officer at your door but the way these legally entitled people are being used in a big psychological game.
> 
> It will not benefit Britain in the long run as you say x x x


Absolutely. The wealthy, the qualified, the professional and those who are young and single will go elsewhere.
I am truly sorry though for mixed couples and their children as it may break families apart.
Imagine if your partner is from EU but your parents or siblings want them all deported.
Where do you stand?
If your children get bullied at school, called names?
Because of their foreign surnames?
The problem start when it is " us" and " them".
British public is manipulated.
Very sadly. The same like Americans.
Those who pull the strings benefit from this split and discontent.

I see Britain impoverished already and economy is not the worst of it by far.


----------



## CuddleMonster

I am so sad. I have a very dear friend who has decided the waiting and uncertainty is too much and has left Britain already. I know a lot of people are saying that EU migrants will be ok, but I can't imagine the strain and worry of waiting so long for concrete answers. I'm not surprised she has given up, but I will miss her so much. I just wish things could be finalised quickly so that at least everyone knows where they stand. Maybe the way things end up, she would have felt she could stay after all, but it was the not knowing that was so hard. So please, please PLEASE will the MPs hurry up and get themselves organised!


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Says the man who fooled his wife for 4 years
> 
> They screwed us while in the EU, they'll work out a way to screw us outside. Morals don't seem to exist in the world of big business and politics





stockwellcat said:


> Another EX Prime Minister bleeting.
> 
> He's an ex Prime Minster for a reason, if I remember he took over when Maggie Thatcher left and was useless. He was the PM when the Maastricht treaty was being debated. The Maastricht treaty paved the way for the EU being formed. I am still annoyed the UK never got a Referendum to become an EU member.
> 
> In my view he is in the same category at Tony Blair and because of this I have no interest in what he has to say.


Instead of attacking the man, what about his words? Do you think us 'remoaners' should be shut out of any say in OUR country's future?



Satori said:


> He sounds like a typical remoaner to me. He should just keep quiet and toe the line.


lol

I'm beginning to wonder whether you two are one and the same.:Hilarious












kimthecat said:


> True but that's not really my point. Is Brexit to blame for further austerity by the Tory government?
> Blame the Tories for using it as an excuse not Brexit .
> Many who voted Brexit didn't vote for a Tory government.


The government are going to have find the billions to pay for brexit from somewhere & it wont be the rich - so of course they will impose further austerity on us.



Arnie83 said:


> Should we instead listen to that paragon of virtue and honesty; Boris?


You've gotta laugh havent you? A serial liar & how many times did Boris cheat on his wife?

We have gifted our country to an even more corrupt bunch of crooks.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


>


UK has ALWAYS been sovereign. It even says so in the governments own white paper. You've been completely misled by the leave campaign liars.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Instead of attacking the man, *what about his words? *


That's all they are. Words.
The man is a nobody now like Tony Blair and their words mean nothing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Do you think us 'remoaners' should be shut out of any say in OUR country's future?


Interpret that the way you want to because these debates are getting silly now.

The UK is leaving the EU period.

It is now down to the Government whom the British public pay through taxes to represent us in the EU.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Well TM has said over and over again the UK has no intention of throwing anyone out of the UK but Germany is hampering the UK securing up anyone's rights, this was revealed in the House of Lords yesterday. Germany are refusing to allow this to be sorted out now and have said we have to wait for the negotiations to start. Germany is one of several countries taking the same stance.


Hillarious if it was a laughing matter. Leave the EU to allow the government the capability to kick people out as they cannot under EU legislation we were told. We've lost control and the ability to do so was the cry. Now we are told the EU governments can kick people out easily so we need to use EU nationals as bargaining chips to prevent that. Nobody has suggested that anything is changing in terms of the EU rules. EU rights and protections are not the ones being abandoned. Seems for those who voted leave facts are extremely flexible depending on the message wanted even when they contradict what they have previously said. No doubt it will change back at need.

Too right the EU will not negotiate until article 50 is handed in. Until such time (could have been handed in over 6 months ago) the UK isn't officially leaving so why should there be negotiations. Can just imagine negotiations going on and on for a decade without handing it in. Submit article 50, 2 years negotiation.That is the process agreed.



stockwellcat said:


> Interpret that the way you want to because these debates are getting silly now.


Only when you ignore facts prefering instead to simply say an opinion poll is more important. Amazing how when confronted with facts debates are silly yet your only factual counter argument evolves around.


> The UK is leaving the EU period.


----------



## Goblin

Just noticed this from way back...



stockwellcat said:


> This information didn't come from the press. Theresa May said it on PMQ's last week live on TV that the point of no return has passed and David Davis also said it before the vote in Parliament on Article 50. The process has begun of leaving the EU, the vote on the article 50 bill is democracy in action and was the beginning of the process.
> 
> You are deluded if you think you can stop the process.
> 
> The will of the people must be respected, that's the will of the 17.4+ million that voted to leave.
> 
> This is what it said on the leaflet everyone received during the Referendum:


Will of 26% of the population.. great argument I don't think for a decision which can not be reversed. Not as though a vote to remain wouldn't have been challenged later on. In fact Farage already stated it would be.

May's already suffered defeat trying to get around the UK democracy in the courts, proving that what politicians say does not always match reality. UK constitution beats what a politician says even if it is inconvenient for you. UK Referendums are simply an opinion poll meant to guide, not dictate government policy.

So, let's keep all to what politcians say shall we.. Let's look at the leave campaign statements shall we.. better not as they lied.
Let's also look at the Tory manifesto.. regarding the single market. Again, problems there.


----------



## KittenKong

Shocking. Brits not wanting to return to their glorious country of origin post Brexit.

How dare they attempt to apply for German citizenship.

Seriously this state of affairs could have been avoided simply by adopting the EEA Norway/Iceland method.

Not that you'd expect that from this rotten government...

If it comes to that I would renounce my British citizenship tomorrow if I could.

Greetings from Finestat, Española by the way!

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-39082468


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 302162


Looks like UKiP vision of Brexit executed by Tory government?
Hold on! How many UKiP MPs were elected by " the people"...1 and that one is to be chucked out?

Not long ago the same who now sign petitions to disband House of Lords, for protecting EU nationals, were saying that no one wants to kick them out, we will have access to Single Market..

Wonder whether they are removing those old posts now?

Farage to be a duke? If Lords are disbanded he will nit be pleased!

Hope 1st April is a suitable date for nomination. Could be also celebrated as National UKiP Day?

Actually if May could trigger Article 50 on 1st April...how befitting....


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just a thought what about Pet Passports in the EU


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Farage to be a duke? If Lords are disbanded he will nit be pleased!


Nigel Farage demands end of meddling peers after Brexit Bill defeat | UK | News | Express.co.uk

Nigel Farage says he is not interested in receiving a peerage
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/77...demands-end-meddling-peers-Brexit-Bill-defeat


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## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> Just a thought what about Pet Passports in the EU


Good point. I don't know the answer though.


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## stuaz

Happy Paws said:


> Just a thought what about Pet Passports in the EU


Pet Passports are not a EU specific item. They apply to a broad list of countries both in and outside the EU.

I would expect there would be a similar requirement once we leave the EU to have this same passport or visa type document.


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## Happy Paws2

stuaz said:


> Pet Passports are not a EU specific item. They apply to a broad list of countries both in and outside the EU.
> 
> I would expect there would be a similar requirement once we leave the EU to have this same passport or visa type document.


Could be interisting all the same.

http://www.pettravel.com/blog/index.php/brexit-and-pet-travel/


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## KittenKong

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/c...utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=blast2017-03-03


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## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/c...utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=blast2017-03-03
> 
> View attachment 302192
> View attachment 302193


Did you read Ed Milibands statement on this @KittenKong ? Tis very good.


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## noushka05

There were some fantastic floats at a German carnival the other day, doing a fine job in ridiculing authoritarian politicians


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## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> View attachment 302201


I love this image Noush' It'ss almost a visual of the following quote;
_
'The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference and undernourishment' _
Robert M Hutchins 1899 - 1977


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## KittenKong

At Alicante airport at the moment. Hope to catch the end of the demo in Newcastle today.


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## kimthecat

@KittenKong I don't think Murdoch is interested in taking over Sky now he has a new wife


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## KittenKong

Well, a rather good demo as it turned out despite next to no mention of it in most local papers. By the time I got into Newcastle most had gone but were attracting a lot of attention with people signing up. The atmosphere was very friendly.

Highlights were put on You Tube if anyone's interested.


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## stockwellcat.

*Sorry, Brexit doomsayers, the outlook is good on global growth*

Anyone who voted to stay in the EU should turn away now. There is disturbing news from far-off continents that could prove upsetting. The news is that Britain's negotiations to leave the EU will take place against the backdrop of strong global growth. Such is the magnitude of this turnaround from the wobbles of 2015 that it could save the Tory administration from the inevitable cuts or extra borrowing that would follow a stagnating economy.

We are not talking about a Trump-inspired dash for growth, although the US president is part of the story. The underpinnings for a year of high employment and solid wage growth across the globe are survey figures showing the largest improvement in worldwide manufacturing business conditions for more than five-and-a-half years.

Built on the expansion of manufacturing output from Europe to China and the US to Japan are February figures showing global trade grew at the fastest rate for just under six years.

An index of global manufacturing health - the JP Morgan Global Manufacturing purchasing managers index (PMI) - has risen to its highest since May 2011.

The icing on the cake is a measure of optimism about business conditions that is continuing to show company bosses are upbeat about the year ahead.

Markit's chief economist Chris Williamson said the latest reading continued an improving trend that had been evident since the JP Morgan survey signalled stagnation this time last year.

"The February index reading is broadly indicative of global manufacturing output growing at a robust annual rate of 4-5%," he said.

Employers are paying higher wages and "commonly reported the need to expand capacity in line with rising demand and brightened prospects".

It doesn't stop there. The stock markets in all major financial centres are tearing through historic ceilings and most investors have a benign outlook for at least the next two years. The world is awash with cash and consumers want to spend it.

It means that much like the European Exchange Rate Mechanism crisis of 1992, when Britain crashed out of the precursor to the euro, the blow was cushioned by a buoyant global economy.

The doomsayers may yet have their day. Theresa May could lead Britain to a position where it leaves the EU, the single market and the customs union with terrible consequences for trade, business investment and GDP growth.

There is the prospect of destabilising political rows between the west and Russia, terrorism is still a lurking danger and China remains wild card that could drag the global economy under.

Greece could yet go bust, there have been dire warnings about the state of Italian banks and the elections in the Netherlands, France and Germany could change the complexion of Europe for the worse.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/04/sorry-brexit-doomsayers-good-news-global-economy


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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Well, a rather good demo as it turned out despite next to no mention of it in most local papers. By the time I got into Newcastle most had gone but were attracting a lot of attention with people signing up. The atmosphere was very friendly.
> 
> Highlights were put on You Tube if anyone's interested.


This probably didn't get into the news because it so happens an NHS protest took place in London today and overshadowed this.


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## cheekyscrip

So..Mr Johnson, we are no longer shouting at Russian embassy?
Now you are having "high level" talks in Russia?

About lifting sanctions I suppose?

So we are closing door on EU to open it to country run by corruption and fear and a scale nothing like in EU?

And some of you were laughing when I told you: The one who benefits from Brexit and weakened EU is Russia.

With new best friends like Trump and Putin you can rest assured ...you will get the change....


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## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> So..Mr Johnson, we are no longer shouting at Russian embassy?
> Now you are having "high level" talks in Russia?
> 
> About lifting sanctions I suppose?


 No.
Cameron went to Russia and spoke to Putin 5 years ago all Boris is doing is doing what is done everytime a new Government is in power (This is Theresa May's Government).They are hoping Putin will listen.


> So we are closing door on EU to open it to country run by corruption and fear and a scale nothing like in EU?


 No.
They are hoping Putin will listen to Boris.


> And some of you were laughing when I told you: The one who benefits from Brexit and weakened EU is Russia.
> 
> With new best friends like Trump and Putin you can rest assured ...you will get the change....


You have totally twisted the whole idea of why Boris has gone to speak to Putin. Typical of a remainer.

They aren't trying to strike a trade deal it is only to try and open dialogue with Russia like every previous UK Government & US President has done in the past and like Trump is trying to do later this year.

You are just trying to link this with Brexit when in actual fact it has nothing to do with Brexit. This is done in every term of a new UK Government and every new US President does it with Russia yes Obama, Bush etc, etc and Cameron, Blair, Maggie Thatcher etc, etc have spoken to Russian leaders in the past face to face to keep dialogue open with Russia. You are trying to make an issue out of an issue that doesn't exist.


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## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Anyone who voted to stay in the EU should turn away now.


Why is that disturbing? With Brexit we still lose on where we could be. That doesn't change.


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## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> They are hoping Putin will listen to Boris.


Johnson wants to take on the big bear does he? That should be really interesting.:Watching I certainly wouldn't be able to dismiss the all pervading memories of the unfortunate Alexander Litvinenko as I raised a coffee cup to my lips.:Nailbiting
Perhaps he should first look back across history to remind himself of all those who fell at the Bear's feet, excluding the Finns and the Mujahideen of course, before boldly marching into territory that could easily swallow him whole.

Besides, who takes anything Johnson says seriously? 
If they want Putin to listen to anyone, then I suggest they send Sam Dingle (Emmerdale Farm) in his place. He's a lovable sort of character, a bit stupid, perhaps not as stupid as Johnson, but at least Sam's sincere with it.


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## KittenKong

Two good comments courtesy of The Guardian:


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## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Why is that disturbing? With Brexit we still lose on where we could be. That doesn't change.


So what would you tell those in the referendum who 20% couldn't be bothered voting, and thousands upon thousands of remain voters voted leave because they didn't take the referendum seriously and then there's the 25+ thousand who ruined there ballot sheet. They have no right of say with what goes on with Brexit because they didn't take the referendum seriously even though it was said it was going to be a once in a generation vote and the results respected over and over again.

I have provided proof of the above comments before in this thread.

It's hard luck I am afraid as remainers voted leave because they wouldn't take the referendum seriously and wanted to retract there vote on the referendum results day etc. These are the people you want to blame for your miss fortune from the referendum result not us that voted leave.


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## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Johnson wants to take on the big bear does he? That should be really interesting.:Watching I certainly wouldn't be able to dismiss the all pervading memories of the unfortunate Alexander Litvinenko as I raised a coffee cup to my lips.:Nailbiting
> Perhaps he should first look back across history to remind himself of all those who fell at the Bear's feet, excluding the Finns and the Mujahideen of course, before boldly marching into territory that could easily swallow him whole.
> 
> Besides, who takes anything Johnson says seriously?
> If they want Putin to listen to anyone, then I suggest they send Sam Dingle (Emmerdale Farm) in his place. He's a lovable sort of character, a bit stupid, perhaps not as stupid as Johnson, but at least Sam's sincere with it.


Well one of the biggest liars in history (Cameron) met Putin to talk to him.


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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Two good comments courtesy of The Guardian:
> View attachment 302264
> View attachment 302265


Shows the EU isn't working with the rise of the far right in Europe and there is a very strong chance Wilders will win in the Netherlands on the 15th March 2017 and Le Penn in France. This is all down to the EU's failings and Europeans don't forget what Merkel done having millions of refugees come across there countries unchecked with no passports or ID. This is what happens when people lose trust in a system that never worked properly anyway.


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## stockwellcat.

Here's proof new US President's and UK Governments have met Putin.

Obama meets Putin

















Cameron meets Putin

















Bush meets Putin









Blair got excited to meet Putin









So @cheekyscrip your argument doesn't stand that Boris is going to meet Putin for the reasons you suggested. It's called keeping diplomatic channels open.


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## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Well one of the biggest liars in history (Cameron)


*But that's what 'politicians' DO!*


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## noushka05

Zaros said:


> I love this image Noush' It'ss almost a visual of the following quote;
> _
> 'The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference and undernourishment' _
> Robert M Hutchins 1899 - 1977


Totally. This is what we're witnessing right now, isn't it. The slow death of democracy. I used to have a quote on my signature that said " _apathy & indifference are the_ _worst of all evils_". I don't know who said it or if I just muddled up someone real quote, but I think its really accurate.



stockwellcat said:


> Well one of the biggest liars in history (Cameron) met Putin to talk to him.
> View attachment 302270
> View attachment 302269
> 
> 
> View attachment 302271
> 
> View attachment 302266
> 
> View attachment 302267


And yet here you are supporting an even more extreme, corrupt tory government. Our NHS will die on Theresa May's watch - who will you blame? By supporting this government you must accept your share of the blame.


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## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Our NHS will die on Theresa May's watch - who will you blame?


Did you attend the march in London yesterday. NHS workers and supporters gathered on mass, I was there. We'll have to see what Philip Hammond offers to the NHS and Social Care in his budget on Wednesday.


> By supporting this government you must accept your share of the blame.


What blame? Oh you're on about the UK exercising it's right to leave the EU which is entrenched in EU treaties which allows countries to do such if they wish.


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## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> And yet here you are supporting an even more extreme, corrupt tory government. Our NHS will die on Theresa May's watch - who will you blame? By supporting this government you must accept your share of the blame.


You do know the difference between a Rat and an immigrant. Don't you Noush?'

Well, just in case you don't, I'll tell you.

It's much easier for a rat to secure a job in politics.


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## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Shows the EU isn't working with the rise of the far right in Europe and there is a very strong chance Wilders will win in the Netherlands on the 15th March 2017 and Le Penn in France. This is all down to the EU's failings and Europeans don't forget what Merkel done having millions of refugees come across there countries unchecked with no passports or ID. This is what happens when people lose trust in a system that never worked properly anyway.


No doubt the same argument to "justify" the rise of Nazi Germany in the '30s applies to this.

Still, Trump's victory with May, Le Penn and Wilders endorsing his style of politics could well work against them. I understand Wilder's popularity is on the wane with his public support for Trump for example.


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## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> And yet here you are supporting an even more extreme, corrupt tory government.


A Government that's working.
One word.
Copeland 

35 years of Labour control in Copeland and the first time since Maggie Thatcher that a Government in power has won a by Election, last time was 1982.


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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No doubt the same argument to "justify" the rise of Nazi Germany in the '30s applies to this.


I am not the one mentioning Nazi Germany it's you that keeps bringing it up. You really think the world hasn't learnt from its past mistakes? The UK has and that is why the UK is leaving the EU and before @Goblin jumps in here, yes the UK is triggering Article 50 before the 31st March 2017 nothing in this respect has changed. The amendments that Lords have voted in favour for get voted on in Parliament again on the 13th and 14th March 2017 and it is rumoured these amendments will be voted down/against and the bill returned to Lords to pass through for Royal Assent.


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## KittenKong




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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 302280


A little gathering compared to the amount of people that showed up for the NHS protest yesterday in London 

I still don't see more than 17+ million people there at the protest you went to


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## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> So @cheekyscrip your argument doesn't stand that Boris is going to meet Putin for the reasons you suggested. *It's called keeping diplomatic channels open*.


It's called 'trying to inflate an ego that has been ruptured by the chaos left behind by the referendum'.:Smuggrin


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## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Did you attend the march in London yesterday. NHS workers and supporters gathered on mass. We'll have to see what Philip Hammond offers to the NHS and Social Care in his budget on Wednesday.
> 
> What blame? Oh you're on about the UK exercising it's right to leave the EU which is entrenched in EU treaties which allows countries to do such if they wish.


I'm sure Hammond will find all the money needed to fully fund our NHS & Social care, after all they found it to cut taxes for the wealthiest & big business 

We know this government is destroying our NHS, by supporting May's government - yes, YOU are part of the problem.

(I wasn't able to go to this protest, but I have been on a 'Save our NHS' protest. )

The words of Bernie Sanders brother >>





















Zaros said:


> You do know the difference between a Rat and an immigrant. Don't you Noush?'
> 
> Well, just in case you don't, I'll tell you.
> 
> It's much easier for a rat to secure a job in politics.


hahaa Very true!


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## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> A Government that's working.
> One word.
> Copeland
> 
> 35 years of Labour control in Copeland and the first time since Maggie Thatcher that a Government in power has won a by Election, last time was 1982.


Copeland was predictable with Corbyn's anti nuclear stance in an area dependent on jobs in that area. Labour would have most certainly won with a more "conventional" leader.

Don't forget many Labour voters, especially EU supporting ones would've deserted the party like I would have done over the Brexit TLW vote.

If May's government is really working why didn't they win Stoke too???


stockwellcat said:


> I am not the one mentioning Nazi Germany it's you that keeps bringing it up. You really think the world hasn't learnt from its past mistakes? The UK has and that is why the UK is leaving the EU and before @Goblin jumps in here, yes the UK is triggering Article 50 before the 31st March 2017 nothing in this respect has changed.


The UK most certainly hasn't learned from history, on the contrary. This will also apply to Holland and France if, heaven forbid, they win.

Why do you think the hard right and left are so keen to see the EU breaking up? Would Adolf Hitler have campaigned to stay in the EU?

Wise words here from Conservative PM Harold MacMillan in 1962:


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## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> A Government that's working.
> One word.
> Copeland
> 
> 35 years of Labour control in Copeland and the first time since Maggie Thatcher that a Government in power has won a by Election, last time was 1982.


Copeland was another nail in the coffin for our NHS. Many people will have to reflect when they (or a loved one) need the NHS & its no longer there for them.


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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Why do you think the hard right and left are so keen to see the EU breaking up? Would Adolf Hitler have campaigned to stay in the EU?


No he wouldn't have been keen on an EU break up as it was his dream to have complete control of Europe and the world. That was what Hitler was trying to do was have complete control and dominance in Europe and later the world. Hitler's version of the EU would have been totally different than what it is today if he had won the second world war.

The UK has learnt from its lessons with the EU and that is why the UK is leaving the EU. Next Netherlands and France.


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## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Copeland was another nail in the coffin for our NHS. Many people will have to reflect when they (or a loved one) need the NHS & its no longer there for them.


Well I was there at the NHS protest listening to people from North East, North West, Midlands and the South. As many said we have to see what Philip Hammond does next week in the budget. I ended up on the protest because I was riding through on my bike and accidentally got caught up in it as I didn't know it was on yesterday.

I don't fault NHS workers as they do a fantastic job and the way they have treated my mum has been really good and me in the past.


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## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> I am not the one mentioning Nazi Germany it's you that keeps bringing it up.* You really think the world hasn't learnt from its past mistakes?* The UK has and that is why the UK is leaving the EU and before @Goblin jumps in here, yes the UK is triggering Article 50 before the 31st March 2017 nothing in this respect has changed. The amendments that Lords have voted in favour for get voted on in Parliament again on the 13th and 14th March 2017 and it is rumoured these amendments will be voted down/against and the bill returned to Lords to pass through for Royal Assent.





stockwellcat said:


> No he wouldn't have been keen on an EU break up as it was his dream to have complete control of Europe and the world. That was what Hitler was trying to do was have complete control and dominance in Europe and later the world. Hitler's version of the EU would have been totally different than what it is today if he had won the second world war.
> 
> The UK has learnt from its lessons with the EU and that is why the UK is leaving the EU. Next Netherlands and France.


Obviously not...............


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## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well I was there at the NHS protest listening to people from North East, North West, Midlands and the South. As many said we have to see what Philip Hammond does next week in the budget. I ended up on the protest because I was riding through on my bike and accidentally got caught up in it as I didn't know it was on yesterday.
> 
> I don't fault NHS workers as they do a fantastic job and the way they have treated my mum has been really good and me in the past.


And if Hammond doesn't commit to fully funding the NHS how will you feel about this government?


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## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> And if Hammond doesn't commit to fully funding the NHS how will you feel about this government?


The NHS has to also accept responsibility as well though for the financial mess it is in. As discussed before in this thread there is alot of problems in the NHS some of which are there own doings. It would be nice to see a cash injection into both the NHS and Social Care but the NHS have to also learn by there mistakes as well and sort them out.

I am with holding any further comments until after the budget. Come back to me then.


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## cheekyscrip

Funny...why NHS worry so much? We will put 350 mln into it weekly as soon as. .
Oh, Cameron and Obama talked to Putin before Crimea was torn off Ukraine, before Russian intervention in Syria?
Before SANCTIONS?

I am sure there were many visits to Russia before they attacked innocent people just because they refused to be satellite of Russia...
So now now Johnstone is not shouting at the embassy?

Russia still keeps Crimea and what is more started new attacks on Ukraine.
Nice to know that Britain finds this acceptable.

So desperate to find a friend, wherever?

List of murdered and imprisoned opposition politicians is very long in Russia...Politovskaya, Nemcev, Kovalev, recently Navalny...


Our Boris can lead few simple tricks...

Yalta talks ring the bell for anyone?

Resulting in giving vast part off East and Central Europe as Russian playground?

Till Thatcher and Reagan helped to undo it.

Russia wants their playground back.


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## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> The NHS has to also accept responsibility as well though for the financial mess it is in. As discussed before in this thread there is alot of problems in the NHS some of which are there own doings. It would be nice to see a cash injection into both the NHS and Social Care but the NHS have to also learn by there mistakes as well and sort them out.
> 
> I am with holding any further comments until after the budget. Come back to me then.


'Before unrealistic efficiency targets were introduced the NHS actually had a surplus'. This government is FORCING our NHS to make another £22Billion 'efficiency savings'. Do you honestly believe this is sustainable?

(I'll get back to you after the budget then lol)


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## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> 'Before unrealistic efficiency targets were introduced the NHS actually had a surplus'. This government is FORCING our NHS to make another £22Billion 'efficiency savings'. Do you honestly believe this is sustainable?
> 
> (I'll get back to you after the budget then lol)
> 
> View attachment 302298


Well at least this Government isn't giving the NHS bouncing cheques like Labour did for 13 years and Labour sold parts of the NHS to private firms. So you would prefer this way of funding the NHS then?

The Tories have cut wait times for operations and appointments under a Labour government the wait times were up to 18 months, now they are down to 12 weeks.


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## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> No he wouldn't have been keen on an EU break up as it was his dream to have complete control of Europe and the world. That was what Hitler was trying to do was have complete control and dominance in Europe and later the world. Hitler's version of the EU would have been totally different than what it is today if he had won the second world war.
> 
> The UK has learnt from its lessons with the EU and that is why the UK is leaving the EU. Next Netherlands and France.


Hmmm..... Perhaps it is a bit late to ask Adolf his views. I fail to understand the comparisons made between Nazi Germany and the EU!

Certainly, membership is entirely voluntary, on the conditions other nations within approve. No country was invaded by force!!!

I believe if Hitler was around today Brussels and Nato would have intervened. Hitler would have destroyed Nato and the EU and invading other countries by force which of course he did.

And we hear that Nato is under threat under Trump!

Interestingly in the '80s the Militant Tendency supported exiting the Capitalist EEC and forming a "Socialist United States of Europe" in its place.

No, I don't think Le Penn and Wilders will win. Fingers crossed....


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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Hmmm..... Perhaps it is a bit late to ask Adolf his views. *I fail to understand the comparisons made between Nazi Germany and the EU!*
> 
> Certainly, membership is entirely voluntary, on the conditions other nations within approve. No country was invaded by force!!!
> 
> I believe if Hitler was around today Brussels and Nato would have intervened. Hitler would have destroyed Nato and the EU and invading other countries by force which of course he did.
> 
> Interestingly in the '80s the Militant Tendency supported exiting the Capitalist EEC and forming a "Socialist United States of Europe" in its place.
> 
> No, I don't think Le Penn and Wilders will win. Fingers crossed....


You keep mentioning Adolf Hitler and the Nazis nobody else is on here. It's you that keeps making the comparison.

You'll be in for a surprise with Wilders at least as he has the popular vote at the moment. We will know on the 15th March 2017. You should never say never, look what happened in America even the so called experts predictions were wrong there.


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## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well at least this Government isn't giving the NHS bouncing cheques like Labour did for 13 years and Labour sold parts of the NHS to private firms. So you would prefer this way of funding the NHS then?
> 
> The Tories have cut wait times for operations and appointments under a Labour government the wait times were up to 18 months, now they are down to 12 weeks.


This was started by the Tories however with PFI in addition under Labour.

As for the reduction in NHS waiting times under the Tories where did you hear this? Surely it's the other way round?

If the NHS was working so well under the Tories why the mass protest in London yesterday?


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## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well at least this Government isn't giving the NHS bouncing cheques like Labour did for 13 years and Labour sold parts of the NHS to private firms. So you would prefer this way of funding the NHS then?


That's right lets point the blame elsewhere - we've had economic migrants, now its labours turn. This government must be laughing their heads off at all their apologists making excuses for them.

Labour should never have adopted the tories PFIs that is a fact, & Corbyn apologised for this dreadful mistake. But labour haven't been in government for7 years!, the ball is in Mays court now. This crisis we're witnessing today has been _deliberately_ _manufactured_ by the tories.


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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> This was started by the Tories however with PFI in addition under Labour.
> 
> As for the reduction in NHS waiting times under the Tories where did you hear this? Surely it's the other way round?
> 
> If the NHS was working so well under the Tories why the mass protest in London yesterday?


You answered your own question on the NHS the PFI's was Labours fault not the Tories.

Wait times have decreased under the Conservatives were I am at least and we're my mum and dad live (2 weeks wait were they are for appointments) in Lancashire.


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## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> You keep mentioning Adolf Hitler and the Nazis nobody else is on here. It's you that keeps making the comparison.
> 
> You'll be in for a surprise with Wilders at least as he has the popular vote at the moment. We will know on the 15th March 2017. You should never say never, look what happened in America even the so called experts predictions were wrong there.


I'm no expert but I correctly predicted the Brexit vote and Trump victory.

I just hope my faith in the French and Dutch people isn't put to the test.

The far right were favourites to win in Austria but didn't thankfully.

As you say, we'll know soon enough.


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## stockwellcat.

PFI's and the NHS:

The *private finance initiative* (*PFI*) is a way of creating "public-private partnership" (PPPs) by funding public infrastructure projects with private capital. Developed initially by the governments of Australia and the United Kingdom, and used extensively there and in Spain, PFI and its variants have now been adopted in many countries as part of the wider programme of privatisation and financialisation, and presented as a means for increasing accountability and efficiency for public spending. *PFI has also been used simply to place a great amount of debt "off-balance-sheet."*

PFI has been controversial in the UK; the National Audit Office felt in 2003 that it provided good value for money overall. However, more recently the Parliamentary Treasury Select Committee found that "PFI should be brought on balance sheet. The Treasury should remove any perverse incentives unrelated to value for money by ensuring that PFI is not used to circumvent departmental budget limits. It should also ask the OBR to include PFI liabilities in future assessments of the fiscal rules".

In 2005/6 the Labour Government introduced Building Schools for the Furture, a scheme introduced for improving the infrastructure of Britain's schools. Of the £2.2 billion funding that the Labour government committed to BSF, £1.2 billion (55.5%) was to be covered by PFI credits. Some local authorities were persuaded to accept Academies in order to secure BSF funding in their area.

By October 2007 the total capital value of PFI contracts signed throughout the UK was £68bn,committing the British taxpayer to future spending of £215bn over the life of the contracts. The global financial crisis which began in 2007 presented PFI with difficulties because many sources of private capital had dried up. Nevertheless, PFI remained the UK government's preferred method for public sector procurement under Labour. In January 2009 the Labour Secretary of State for Health, Alan Johnson, reaffirmed this commitment with regard to the health sector, stating that "PFIs have always been the NHS's 'plan A' for building new hospitals … There was never a 'plan B'". However, because of banks' unwillingness to lend money for PFI projects, the UK government now had to fund the so-called 'private' finance initiative itself. In March 2009 it was announced that the Treasury would lend £2bn of public money to private firms building schools and other projects under PFI. Labour's Cheif Secretary to the Treasury Yvette Cooper, claimed the loans should ensure that projects worth £13bn - including waste treatment projects, environmental schemes and schools - would not be delayed or cancelled. She also promised that the loans would be temporary and would be repaid at a commercial rate. But, at the time, Vince Cable of the Liberal Democrats, subsequently Secretary of State for Business in the coalition, argued in favour of traditional public financing structures instead of propping up PFI with public money:

"The whole thing has become terribly opaque and dishonest and it's a way of hiding obligations. PFI has now largely broken down and we are in the ludicrous situation where the government is having to provide the funds for the private finance initiative."

PFI's produced by:








That created the financial mess the NHS is in now.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-39167222


----------



## KittenKong

Hilarious!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> You answered your own question on the NHS the PCI was Labours fault not the Tories.
> 
> Wait times have decreased under the Conservatives were I am at least and we're my mum and dad live (2 weeks wait were they are for appointments) in Lancashire.





stockwellcat said:


> PFI's and the NHS:
> 
> The *private finance initiative* (*PFI*) is a way of creating "public-private partnership" (PPPs) by funding public infrastructure projects with private capital. Developed initially by the governments of Australia and the United Kingdom, and used extensively there and in Spain, PFI and its variants have now been adopted in many countries as part of the wider programme of privatisation and financialisation, and presented as a means for increasing accountability and efficiency for public spending. *PFI has also been used simply to place a great amount of debt "off-balance-sheet."*
> 
> PFI has been controversial in the UK; the National Audit Office felt in 2003 that it provided good value for money overall. However, more recently the Parliamentary Treasury Select Committee found that "PFI should be brought on balance sheet. The Treasury should remove any perverse incentives unrelated to value for money by ensuring that PFI is not used to circumvent departmental budget limits. It should also ask the OBR to include PFI liabilities in future assessments of the fiscal rules".
> 
> In 2005/6 the Labour Government introduced Building Schools for the Furture, a scheme introduced for improving the infrastructure of Britain's schools. Of the £2.2 billion funding that the Labour government committed to BSF, £1.2 billion (55.5%) was to be covered by PFI credits. Some local authorities were persuaded to accept Academies in order to secure BSF funding in their area.
> 
> By October 2007 the total capital value of PFI contracts signed throughout the UK was £68bn,committing the British taxpayer to future spending of £215bn over the life of the contracts. The global financial crisis which began in 2007 presented PFI with difficulties because many sources of private capital had dried up. Nevertheless, PFI remained the UK government's preferred method for public sector procurement under Labour. In January 2009 the Labour Secretary of State for Health, Alan Johnson, reaffirmed this commitment with regard to the health sector, stating that "PFIs have always been the NHS's 'plan A' for building new hospitals … There was never a 'plan B'". However, because of banks' unwillingness to lend money for PFI projects, the UK government now had to fund the so-called 'private' finance initiative itself. In March 2009 it was announced that the Treasury would lend £2bn of public money to private firms building schools and other projects under PFI. Labour's Cheif Secretary to the Treasury Yvette Cooper, claimed the loans should ensure that projects worth £13bn - including waste treatment projects, environmental schemes and schools - would not be delayed or cancelled. She also promised that the loans would be temporary and would be repaid at a commercial rate. But, at the time, Vince Cable of the Liberal Democrats, subsequently Secretary of State for Business in the coalition, argued in favour of traditional public financing structures instead of propping up PFI with public money:
> 
> "The whole thing has become terribly opaque and dishonest and it's a way of hiding obligations. PFI has now largely broken down and we are in the ludicrous situation where the government is having to provide the funds for the private finance initiative."
> 
> PFI's produced by:
> View attachment 302300
> 
> That created the financial mess the NHS is in now.
> View attachment 302303


Do your research, John Majors government introduced PFIs, Blairs government adopted them. Massive mistake by a labour government. Not least because apologists for this government are using it to excuse this government completely destroying our NHS.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Do your research, John Majors government introduced PFIs, Blairs government adopted them. Massive mistake by a labour government. Not least because apologists for this government are using it to excuse this government completely destroying our NHS.


Yes so Labour adopted them and look what happened. Labour created the financial mess the NHS is in now. It doesn't matter which way you try to defend this Labour still created the financial mess the NHS is in.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Yes so Labour adopted them and look what happened. Labour created the financial mess the NHS is in now. It doesn't matter which way you try to defend this Labour still created the financial mess the NHS is in.
> 
> I did do my research.


I'm no apologist for labour, I've said plenty of times new labour should never have adopted Thaatchers neoliberal ideology - (of which PFIs are part of!)

You are the one doing the cherry picking.

Have you done your research on the Health & Social care Act 2012?

STPs? https://nh-space.com/2016/08/28/5-things-you-should-know-about-stp/

*5 - This Is About Creating A Two Tier System*
The level of cuts and closures required by the STPs is such that the NHS will become unable to provide a universal service. Rationing will increase, so that most routine procedures will be refused funding. Once various DGHs have closed, the hospitals still standing will struggle with their increased catchment areas and will be forced to provide essentials only.

Labours fault????


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I have provided proof of the above comments before in this thread.


No you provided a politician saying something. That is not proof. If it was we could assume the leave lies were fact when they weren't. 350million per week will not go to the NHS. EU funding for Cornwall would be replaced with funding from the government which it will not be. We would still be looking at staying in the single market. The list could go on.

Your "wish" is not proof and even Farage has conceded you are wrong.

As far as leaving is concerned, handing in Article 50 is hardly the end of it.

Then we come to the NHS, Labour/Conservatives. No "party" has a clean record for protecting the people it is responsible for. Leaving the EU however does mean they can ignore things that they don't like such as workers rights, human rights etc when they find they are inconvenient. Losing a level of government accountability is not something to celebrate.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
I've noticed multiple admiring comments re the surge in U-S stock prices after Trumpling's election, as if this were a 'real' increase in actual value or as tho a treasure-chest of cash had been opened, & was being distributed to the various corporations. *It ain't so.*
.
Stocks went up solely on the happy prospect of *deregulation* of all kinds - *environmental* [gutting the Clean Air & Clean Water Acts, deconstructing or defunding the Endangered Species Act, etc], *pollution controls* [already specifically PERMITTING coal-mines to discharge all waste, untreated, directly into local waterways...], *green energy [since climate change is a Chinese hoax, we don't need to offer incentives to reduce energy consumption], **financial deregulation *[despite the fact that the U-S is just barely, now, emerging from the devastating Great Recession of 2008], *businesses in general *expect to be deregulated - & thus maximize THEIR short-term profits, whilst laying up a massive externalized debt that society as a whole will be forced to pay.
.
If companies who pollute need not clean up their own cr*p, or prevent their cr*p escaping into the environment to begin with... WHO will clean up the mess?
The taxpayers, of course - at far, far greater cost, & years later. Meanwhile, all that cr*p is free in the world, moving - flowing in water, moving thru soil, carried on the wind - & it's simply being distributed over a wider area. unch If anyone thinks that's an intelligent & reasonable "solution" to pollutants, I've got a few names that might bring actual events to mind - Love Canal, anyone?
Take a look at the EPA's list of Superfund sites across the USA - all highly profitable *FORMER* businesses, whose biggest legacy is devastating long-term pollution, & as those companies either went out of business or declared bankruptcy after generating all their cr*p & making all their money, _*who pays*_ *to clean it up?*
.
.
The rise in the Dow-Jones & the jubilation in boardrooms is a bubble - based on hot-air, not cold cash. Just like the real-estate bubble that popped so catastrophically in 2008, it has no actual assets to back its supposed increase in value; the houses bought for $200-K that doubled in appraisal in a mere year or two were NOT any "better" houses than they were before, they weren't radically improved, interiors upgraded, new kitchens & baths... they were the same houses they were, 12 or 24-mos before.
.
A bubble is not reason to rejoice - it's dam* good reason to worry, because they don't last & can implode at any moment.
Thinking our economy is suddenly sound because a new sheriff is in office is simplistic, asinine, & short-sighted. We are still paying the considerable co$ts of POTUS Ronnie Ray-gun's *business-friendly, tax-cutting, DE-REGULATING 2 terms in office... when he planted the seeds of the 2008 Great Recession, that he did not live to see in full bloom.*
.
We in the U-S have apparently learned nothing from a painful recent history - & Trumpster, the most-ignorant POTUS ever, is ready to repeat it all, while across the Pond, the Tories apparently think a rising stock-exchange is happily contagious & will automatically spread to the UK, solving all those sticky issues of debt, interest payments, under-funding, etc, amid a sweep of privatization initiatives & tax-cuts for business & the wealthy.
.
If U cut taxes on the uberwealthy, corporations, & businesses in general, WHO will pay the bills?... That's right: the increasingly-rare middle class, & the working poor.
Income & asset inequity has never been wider in U-S history, & Trumpling is about to make the gap even-more massive & enshrine it as public policy.
.
I am personally predicting that if this juggernaut is not stopped, *there WILL * BE a violent revolution in the U.S.A. - *because U cannot ruthlessly rob the vast majority of citizens of any hope for a solvent future for themselves & their children, without a backlash that includes bloodshed.
Frankly, I hope i die before it comes.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I can't believe she fell for Cameron and Osborne's lies, how gullible:

*Gina Miller says she fought Article 50 in court because rhetoric around Brexit 'could lead to world war'*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-gina-miller-article-50-supreme-court-case-remain-leave-eu-rhetoric-world-war-populism-a7611971.html?amp

So if Brexit lead to world war what would Nexit and Frexit cause? This is a far fetched statement by the way that Brexit could lead to another world war.

Other European countries want to try paying into NATO's budget instead of relying on the USA and UK to pay there fair share.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
U *don't *think nationalistic drum-thumping & divisive rhetoric could very readily "lead to world war", Stockwell? -
Why not? --- It certainly has done, in the past, & it's not such a long-ago past that no one alive remembers when it did.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> U *don't *think nationalistic drum-thumping & divisive rhetoric could very readily "lead to world war", Stockwell? -
> Why not? --- It certainly has done, in the past, & it's not such a long-ago past that no one alive remembers when it did.
> .
> .
> .


The UK is only leaving the EU for crying out loud it's not leaving the planet. The UK will still be in Europe and NATO. The EU is like TTP or North American Trade Alliance nothing else. Trump is taking the USA out of TTP that hasn't caused war has it?

It's so sad to think that the EU isn't big enough to look after itself.

Again remainers on Referendum day didn't take the referendum seriously and voted leave, there fault, 20% couldn't be bothered to vote and 25+ thousand people messed up there ballot sheets.

As for the world war comments, this rhetoric is very far fetched, Cameron said these comments in a last desperate attempt with his remain campaign to get people to vote remain. This is a typical example of the remain campaigners scaremongering tactics during the Referendum campaign.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ners-theresa-may-guarantee-eu-citizens-rights

Very surprising!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I can't believe she fell for Cameron and Osborne's lies, how gullible:
> 
> *Gina Miller says she fought Article 50 in court because rhetoric around Brexit 'could lead to world war'*
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-gina-miller-article-50-supreme-court-case-remain-leave-eu-rhetoric-world-war-populism-a7611971.html?amp
> 
> So if Brexit lead to world war what would Nexit and Frexit cause? This is a far fetched statement by the way that Brexit could lead to another world war.
> 
> Other European countries want to try paying into NATO's budget instead of relying on the USA and UK to pay there fair share.


Lets say the EU collapses and Trump abolishes Nato.

Trump himself argued some countries within the EU are, "Ill prepared for war".

I don't wish to scaremonger.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Lets say the EU collapses and Trump abolishes Nato.
> 
> Trump himself argued some countries within the EU are, "Ill prepared for war".
> 
> I don't wish to scaremonger.....


If the EU collapses (which I hope doesn't happen) that would be there doing.

The Republic of Ireland may explore it's options for a Irexit to stop there being a hard border in Ireland. They don't think the DUP and Sinn Fein are going to be able to make a joint Government simply because both parties have different agendas. This will mean Northern Ireland will go back to direct rule from Westminster in three weeks time under emergency legislation.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Irexit: Republic of Ireland must follow UK's lead and leave EU*

It is hard to understand why there is so much agonising over the future of border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic when the UK eventually leaves the EU. The future is clearly predictable.

It is certain that the Republic of Ireland will, or should, vote to leave the EU soon after the United Kingdom and within the negotiated transitional period.

The reasons are:

1. The Republic only joined the EU because they had no real choice when the United Kingdom joined;

2. They initially voted against the Maastricht Treaty, and were forced to accept it by the bullies of Europe;

3. More than 83% of the Republic's trade is with the UK and the remainder is shared with the EU and the rest of the world;

4. Since 2012, the Republic has been a net contributor to EU coffers. This sum will continue to increase and is most likely to greatly leap upwards following the withdrawal of UK funds and the entry of the new poorer countries. The boom for Ireland post-1973 is at an end;

5. The banking crisis in the Republic was in part overcome by the UK's contribution when the EU didn't step up to the plate. Fair weather friends are no friends, and;

6 If the Republic insists on staying with the EU, it is not only the border posts that will be installed. The traditional free movement of Irish workers to the UK will also be greatly controlled in line with the future arrangements for other EU citizens. With President Trump promising to close (or curtail) US borders to foreign workers, life will become very difficult for the Republic's excess of workers.

It seems to me that the Republic has no logical choice but to follow the UK out of the EU - and the sooner the better.

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opi...st-follow-uks-lead-and-leave-eu-35414728.html


----------



## Satori

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> I've noticed multiple admiring comments re the surge in U-S stock prices after Trumpling's election, as if this were a 'real' increase in actual value or as tho a treasure-chest of cash had been opened, & was being distributed to the various corporations. *It ain't so.*
> .
> Stocks went up solely on the happy prospect of *deregulation* of all kinds - *environmental* [gutting the Clean Air & Clean Water Acts, deconstructing or defunding the Endangered Species Act, etc], *pollution controls* [already specifically PERMITTING coal-mines to discharge all waste, untreated, directly into local waterways...], *green energy [since climate change is a Chinese hoax, we don't need to offer incentives to reduce energy consumption], **financial deregulation *[despite the fact that the U-S is just barely, now, emerging from the devastating Great Recession of 2008], *businesses in general *expect to be deregulated - & thus maximize THEIR short-term profits, whilst laying up a massive externalized debt that society as a whole will be forced to pay.
> .
> If companies who pollute need not clean up their own cr*p, or prevent their cr*p escaping into the environment to begin with... WHO will clean up the mess?
> The taxpayers, of course - at far, far greater cost, & years later. Meanwhile, all that cr*p is free in the world, moving - flowing in water, moving thru soil, carried on the wind - & it's simply being distributed over a wider area. unch If anyone thinks that's an intelligent & reasonable "solution" to pollutants, I've got a few names that might bring actual events to mind - Love Canal, anyone?
> Take a look at the EPA's list of Superfund sites across the USA - all highly profitable *FORMER* businesses, whose biggest legacy is devastating long-term pollution, & as those companies either went out of business or declared bankruptcy after generating all their cr*p & making all their money, _*who pays*_ *to clean it up?*
> .
> .
> The rise in the Dow-Jones & the jubilation in boardrooms is a bubble - based on hot-air, not cold cash. Just like the real-estate bubble that popped so catastrophically in 2008, it has no actual assets to back its supposed increase in value; the houses bought for $200-K that doubled in appraisal in a mere year or two were NOT any "better" houses than they were before, they weren't radically improved, interiors upgraded, new kitchens & baths... they were the same houses they were, 12 or 24-mos before.
> .
> A bubble is not reason to rejoice - it's dam* good reason to worry, because they don't last & can implode at any moment.
> Thinking our economy is suddenly sound because a new sheriff is in office is simplistic, asinine, & short-sighted. We are still paying the considerable co$ts of POTUS Ronnie Ray-gun's *business-friendly, tax-cutting, DE-REGULATING 2 terms in office... when he planted the seeds of the 2008 Great Recession, that he did not live to see in full bloom.*
> .
> We in the U-S have apparently learned nothing from a painful recent history - & Trumpster, the most-ignorant POTUS ever, is ready to repeat it all, while across the Pond, the Tories apparently think a rising stock-exchange is happily contagious & will automatically spread to the UK, solving all those sticky issues of debt, interest payments, under-funding, etc, amid a sweep of privatization initiatives & tax-cuts for business & the wealthy.
> .
> If U cut taxes on the uberwealthy, corporations, & businesses in general, WHO will pay the bills?... That's right: the increasingly-rare middle class, & the working poor.
> Income & asset inequity has never been wider in U-S history, & Trumpling is about to make the gap even-more massive & enshrine it as public policy.
> .
> I am personally predicting that if this juggernaut is not stopped, *there WILL * BE a violent revolution in the U.S.A. - *because U cannot ruthlessly rob the vast majority of citizens of any hope for a solvent future for themselves & their children, without a backlash that includes bloodshed.
> Frankly, I hope i die before it comes.
> .
> .
> .


That's such a naive analysis on so many levels it's hard to know where to begin.

Nobody thinks a treasure chest of cash has been opened and distributed to corporations. How could you even imagine that? Market valuation of listed companies is based on future cash flows, emphatically not 'cold cash' as you put it. But not hot air either. Fact; shares in companies are a holder of real wealth and as they fluctuate in value so does real wealth. You can sell them too don't ya know?

Of course, valuations look a bit peaky right now and last week's rally was likely caused by short covering. But who would go long long-term at this entry point? Only contrarians do well in the long term. One man's bubble is another mans opportunity. Lots of money was made on the 2008 crisis (which was a sub-prime crisis really, not a real estate crisis) and lots is being made on the back of trumponomics too.

Better to stop whining and just be on the right side of the trade.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Satori:

... One man's bubble is another man*'*s opportunity. *Lots of money was made on the 2008 crisis* (which was a sub-prime crisis really, not a real estate crisis) and lots is being made on the back of Trumponomics too.

Better to stop whining and just be on the right side of the trade.

/QUOTE
.
.
lots of money was also LOST - during, & long-after the initial months-long crisis that turned into grinding years of higher unemployment, stagnant wages, etc.
.
Congratulations on making money while so many saw their life-savings evaporate, their mortgages go underwater, & their jobs disappear.
.
*ETA: *sorry, "lots of money", not 'lost of...'. Corrected.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> That's such a naive analysis on so many levels it's hard to know where to begin.
> 
> Nobody thinks a treasure chest of cash has been opened and distributed to corporations. How could you even imagine that? Market valuation of listed companies is based on future cash flows, emphatically not 'cold cash' as you put it. But not hot air either. Fact; shares in companies are a holder of real wealth and as they fluctuate in value so does real wealth. You can sell them too don't ya know?
> 
> Of course, valuations look a bit peaky right now and last week's rally was likely caused by short covering. But who would go long long-term at this entry point? Only contrarians do well in the long term. One man's bubble is another mans opportunity. Lots of money was made on the 2008 crisis (which was a sub-prime crisis really, not a real estate crisis) and lots is being made on the back of trumponomics too.
> 
> Better to stop whining and just be on the right side of the trade.


That is if you have capital to invest ...

Which for many reasons is not always the case...

I realise you do not care much for those live on the prayer ..

Their fault ...


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, Satori:

That's such a naive analysis on so many levels it's hard to know where to begin.

*Nobody thinks a treasure chest of cash has been opened and distributed* to corporations. ...

/QUOTE
.
.
I said, Satori, that they reacted AS * IF a treasure-chest of ca$h had been distributed - & they, meaning market forces, did indeed react in just such a way.
.
No one, least of all myself, is alleging there's been a multi-million dollar handout to publicly-held corporations; they ACT as if there had been.
Hopefully that clarifies - & i don't give an aerial sexual assault on a radially-accelerated toroidal pastry if U find that "naive".  I'm not the only one who perceives it as over-valuing & a bubble of blissfully-retarded optimism in the face of great concerns re this POTUS.
.
.
.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> The UK is only leaving the EU for crying out loud it's not leaving the planet. The UK will still be in Europe and NATO. The EU is like TTP or North American Trade Alliance nothing else. Trump is taking the USA out of TTP that hasn't caused war has it?
> 
> It's so sad to think that the EU isn't big enough to look after itself.
> 
> Again remainers on Referendum day didn't take the referendum seriously and voted leave, there fault, 20% couldn't be bothered to vote and 25+ thousand people messed up there ballot sheets.
> 
> As for the world war comments, this rhetoric is very far fetched, Cameron said these comments in a last desperate attempt with his remain campaign to get people to vote remain. This is a typical example of the remain campaigners scaremongering tactics during the Referendum campaign.


Okay, firstly - and for the umpteenth time - Cameron did not mention a "world war". Not once.

Secondly, the article you cite does not suggest that Brexit will trigger world war, but that it will boost the forces of nationalism - as opposed to patriotism, lest anyone be confused.

And it's why I voted Remain. If Brexit encourages the anti-EU factions in the Netherlands, France and elsewhere that could easily lead to the break-up of the EU. We would soon be back to a continent of competing states, and we know how that's turned out in the past. I don't think for a moment that war would be inevitable, or even likely in the short or medium term. But long term? Who knows?

I hope that Brexit will prove irrelevant, but the future of the human race is more likely to be peaceful when borders are blurred, rather than reinforced. That's why I voted Remain.


----------



## KittenKong

Goes to show May is no "Maggie May" as some call her.

I think "May Le Penn" is more appropriate.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Okay, firstly - and for the umpteenth time - Cameron did not mention a "world war". Not once.
> 
> Secondly, the article you cite does not suggest that Brexit will trigger world war, but that it will boost the forces of nationalism - as opposed to patriotism, lest anyone be confused.
> 
> And it's why I voted Remain. If Brexit encourages the anti-EU factions in the Netherlands, France and elsewhere that could easily lead to the break-up of the EU. We would soon be back to a continent of competing states, and we know how that's turned out in the past. I don't think for a moment that war would be inevitable, or even likely in the short or medium term. But long term? Who knows?
> 
> I hope that Brexit will prove irrelevant, but the future of the human race is more likely to be peaceful when borders are blurred, rather than reinforced. That's why I voted Remain.


Well you can blame the press for the World War 3 comment here is an example:


----------



## cheekyscrip

Russia attacked another country already...why? Because they wanted to join NATO.

Word peace was maintained by NATO, the alliance North America/ Western and now Central Europe.
With USA split, Britain split, EU diminished...Russia rising, sanctions soon to fall, OPEC warming up to Putin and oil prices growing?

With pound sinking into new lows...


Tell me how to build sustainable economy on optimism alone?


----------



## cheekyscrip

That tops everything. Today got blamed for Brexit As " you British" !
In the end tired of explaining that it was not me! I pointed to Merkel. Whose arbitrary decisions fuelled all nationalists movements.

I still wonder as I am sure she knew how it would go. What kind of game they play?


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Goes to show May is no "Maggie May" as some call her.
> 
> I think "May Le Penn" is more appropriate.
> 
> View attachment 302352
> View attachment 302353


Some would argue the EU is a different beast from when they were in power.

However despite what those PM's may have said, there is no denying that the UK has always remained one foot in and one foot out, never really embracing what others in mainland Europe have done.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Well you can blame the press for the World War 3 comment here is an example:


I can, and do, blame the Press. And many people picked up on it and lambasted Cameron and the Remain campaign for threatening us all with WW3. Just another helpful inaccuracy in the cause.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Again remainers on Referendum day didn't take the referendum seriously and voted leave, there fault, 20% couldn't be bothered to vote and 25+ thousand people messed up there ballot sheets


Thank you for highlighting the fact that the MAJORITY of the population do not support Brexit and May has no constitutional mandate to leave and certainly no mandate to leave the single market.

So funny you use the video of "WWIII" to try and prove your point when it does the opposite. Very clear what he meant when you listen to him, not the interviewer and is really a repetition of what Winston Churchill stated.



> We must build a kind of United States of Europe.. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important.. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.


There is a reason Le Penn turned to russia for funding although that is turning out to be a problem. http://www.france24.com/en/20170105...arine-le-pen-russia-finance-election-campaign


----------



## stockwellcat.

Attached is Theresa May's Manifesto it is the Manifesto of the Conservative Party who was elected into power for a second term in 2015.

In the Manifesto on Page 73 it says the following:

_"*Our plan of action:
We will let you decide whether to stay in or leave the EU. We will legislate in the first session of the next Parliament for an in-out referendum to be held on Britain's membership of the EU before the end of 2017. We will negotiate a new settlement for Britain in the EU. And then we will ask the British people whether they want to stay in on this basis, or leave*. *We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome."*_

The bit underlined is what Theresa May and the Conservatives are respecting and honouring as promised in the Manifesto 2015 that being the outcome of the EU Referendum. This manifesto is not Cameron's Manifesto it is the Manifesto of the Conservative Party whom where elected as ruling party in 2015.

Theresa May does have a Manifesto and it is to honour the outcome of the Referendum as promised in the Conservatives Manifesto 2015 (on page 73) which the party won the General Election on.

So all the remainers saying Theresa May doesn't have a Manifesto are wrong I am afraid.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Thank you for highlighting the fact that the MAJORITY of the population do not support Brexit and May has no constitutional mandate to leave and certainly no mandate to leave the single market.
> 
> So funny you use the video of "WWIII" to try and prove your point when it does the opposite. Very clear what he meant when you listen to him, not the interviewer and is really a repetition of what Winston Churchill stated.
> 
> There is a reason Le Penn turned to russia for funding although that is turning out to be a problem. http://www.france24.com/en/20170105...arine-le-pen-russia-finance-election-campaign


Surely who bankrolled Trump, Brexit, Le Pen gets their money worth...
Though hope French at least get wise to that.. They see what is happening in USA and UK right now...


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> That is if you have capital to invest ...
> 
> Which for many reasons is not always the case...
> 
> I realise you do not care much for those live on the prayer ..
> 
> Their fault ...


Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> So all the remainers saying Theresa May doesn't have a Manifesto are wrong I am afraid.


Who said the manifesto, the word was mandate. Again, the referendum was advisory no matter how many politicians state otherwise. Parliament did not decide and set it otherwise although if they wanted to, they could have. The precedent was there. They didn't.

Also look at the manifesto again in regards to the single market. "we say yes to the single market" and it talks about how "we will safeguard British interests in the single market". So tell me, how is leaving safeguarding British Interests in it? Use the manifesto as evidence of intent you cannot select only the bits you want to adhere to.

Again, stick to promises of politicians, tell me how are the promises of the leave campaign going to be adhered to?


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
well, Satori, one can immediately tell U've got a heart for the common man - & woman, & child. 
Indeed - *let the poor who cannot afford wheat for bread*, *now that the tax has been raised on it,* *instead eat rich, expensive, eggy buns*... Kinda like telling someone in South Sudan right now, that if s/he or they cannot afford millet, then, by crikey, they can go eat caviar, or fugo, or have sushi delivered, or eat Kobe beef, or foie gras, or steak tartare. 
.
.
Brilliant - remember how well it worked out for the first person to use that sentence, do ya?
She quite lost her head.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Who said the manifesto, the word was mandate. Again, the referendum was advisory no matter how many politicians state otherwise. Parliament did not decide and set it otherwise although if they wanted to, they could have. The precedent was there. They didn't.
> 
> Also look at the manifesto again in regards to the single market. "we say yes to the single market" and it talks about how "we will safeguard British interests in the single market". So tell me, how is leaving safeguarding British Interests in it? Use the manifesto as evidence of intent you cannot select only the bits you want to adhere to.
> 
> Again, stick to promises of politicians, tell me how are the promises of the leave campaign going to be adhered to?


The Manifesto is Theresa May's mandate.

Things have changed regarding the single market. The Leave Campaigners explained clearly in its campaign that the UK will leave the single market. It doesn't matter if the Conservatives said what they said about the single market in there manifesto as Theresa May is respecting the outcome of the Referendum. The outcome includes leaving the single market as stated all the way through the leave Campaign for the EU referendum. The Conservatives largely as a party back Cameron's campaign to stay in the EU so why do you keep blaming the Conservatives? Yes they are now largely backing the leave side of the EU referendum campaign because they are respecting the outcome of the EU referendum results as promised in there manifesto.

You talk about picking bits out of articles that's funny because one of the remain campaign groups does this to make there cause but in doing so they miss out what is said directly afterwards they are called Open Britain. In missing out what is said afterwards makes there cause null and void as pointed out on the Andrew Marr show.

Evidence for you is here. On this show he shows that the leave Campaign did indeed campaign to leave the Single Market but the remain side twisted this to suit there cause:





Tick tock it's nearly the 31st March 2017 and it's nearly the time for Article 50 to be triggered.

You come on here after a break and the thread gets heated again and you focus on me, no one else, me. That is a form of bullying *STOP* picking on me and singling my posts out. OK.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> The Manifesto is Theresa May's mandate.
> 
> Things have changed regarding the single market thanks to EU leaders. The EU leaders have said if the UK leaves they cannot cherry pick and stay in the single market. Did you get that bit as they did say it over and over again.
> 
> You talk about picking bits out of articles that's funny because one of the remain campaign groups does this to make there cause but in doing so they miss out what is said directly afterwards they are called Open Britain. In missing out what is said afterwards makes there cause null and void as pointed out on the Andrew Marr show. You really need to get a grip with yourself @Goblin.
> 
> Tick tock it's nearly the 31st March 2017 and it's nearly the time for Article 50 to be triggered. Are you feeling a bit desparate.
> 
> You come on here after a break and the thread gets heated again and you focus on me, no one else, me. That is a form of bullying *STOP* picking on me and singling my posts out. OK.


I think @Goblin's post have been very measured & reasonable tbf. Countering your posts with evidence isn't bullying, @stockwellcat. It probably feels like you're getting picked on because you do the most posting in the leave camp on here, that's all. Try not to take things to personally


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I think @Goblin's post have been very measured & reasonable tbf. Countering your posts with evidence isn't bullying, @stockwellcat. It probably feels like you're getting picked on because you do the most posting in the leave camp on here, that's all. Try not to take things to personally


I told everyone a while back that I have a voice like all the leave voters and I won't sit back and let the remain side of this debate put our cause down.

FACTS
1) Throughout the leave Campaign about the EU referendum it was said over and over and over again that we would be leaving the Single Market. It is remain groups like Open Britain that have twisted what had been said. I knew when I cast my vote on Referendum day that it would mean leaving the single market which in turn means leaving the Customs Union as they are intertwined. It is the remain side that cannot get there heads around this.
2) The EU Referendum has largely been accepted around the world that the UK is going to leave the EU. The result like it or not was publisized before the Referendum took place that it would be respected and acted on regardless of the outcome. Leave won. The results have been accepted. The results are being acted upon. The Referendum's status at the time was never told to the general public in any publications distributed that it was only advisory and the Supreme Court Justices never refered to it as being advisory once in Gina Miller's case and in actual fact said the results must be respected. 
3) Gina Miller shot herself in the foot with the court case as she gave politicians a vote and the leave side won with no amendments to the article 50 bill in Parliament, she was hoping the opposite was going to happen. Thank you Gina Miller you have made the vote leave's side of this debate stronger. She is now throwing hissing fits calling politicians names and making threats of another court case. I mean who on earth does she think she is telling people how to do there jobs?

It is insulting to suggest any of the facts presented above are the contrary just because you didn't like the outcome of the Referendum.


----------



## noushka05

Well I never.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/04/cambridge-analytics-data-brexit-trump

*Watchdog to launch inquiry into misuse of data in politics*

Investigation follows revelations of digital firm's involvement in Brexit

The UK's privacy watchdog is launching an inquiry into how voters' personal data is being captured and exploited in political campaigns, *cited as a key factor in both the Brexit and Trump victories last year*

The intervention by the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) follows revelations in last week's _Observer_that a technology company part-owned by a US billionaire played a key role in the campaign to persuade Britons to vote to leave the European Union.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Well I never.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/04/cambridge-analytics-data-brexit-trump
> 
> *Watchdog to launch inquiry into misuse of data in politics*
> 
> Investigation follows revelations of digital firm's involvement in Brexit
> 
> The UK's privacy watchdog is launching an inquiry into how voters' personal data is being captured and exploited in political campaigns, *cited as a key factor in both the Brexit and Trump victories last year*
> 
> The intervention by the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) follows revelations in last week's _Observer_that a technology company part-owned by a US billionaire played a key role in the campaign to persuade Britons to vote to leave the European Union.


Mercer?
Then we can add our own Murdoch too...

@Satori , but how many really can make it on losses?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I told everyone a while back that I have a voice like all the leave voters and I won't sit back and let the remain side of this debate put our cause down.
> 
> FACTS
> 1) Throughout the leave Campaign about the EU referendum it was said over and over and over again that we would be leaving the Single Market. It is remain groups like Open Britain that have twisted what had been said. I knew when I cast my vote on Referendum day that it would mean leaving the single market which in turn means leaving the Customs Union as they are intertwined. It is the remain side that cannot get there heads around this.
> 2) The EU Referendum has largely been accepted around the world that the UK is going to leave the EU. The result like it or not was publisized before the Referendum took place that it would be respected and acted on regardless of the outcome. Leave won. The results have been accepted. The results are being acted upon. The Referendum's status at the time was never told to the general public in any publications distributed that it was only advisory and the Supreme Court Justices never refered to it as being advisory once in Gina Miller's case and in actual fact said the results must be respected.
> 3) Gina Miller shot herself in the foot with the court case as she gave politicians a vote and the leave side won with no amendments to the article 50 bill in Parliament, she was hoping the opposite was going to happen. Thank you Gina Miller you have made the vote leave's side of this debate stronger. She is now throwing hissing fits calling politicians names and making threats of another court case. I mean who on earth does she think she is telling people how to do there jobs?
> 
> It is insulting to suggest any of the facts presented above are the contrary just because you didn't like the outcome of the Referendum.


Why do you consider it insulting? People have a right to voice their concerns such as EU citizens in the UK and vice versa. Even Micheal Gove of all people it's been reported.

I know for a fact if the referendum vote was reversed with the government going for a "hard remain" (adopt the Euro etc.) would have caused a similar backlash of opposition.

I would accept and understand that, so why won't you?


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> @Satori , but how many really can make it on losses?


Very few. The system is rigged. It's a mug's game for individuals to even try; might as well just go to the casino. Best to just sell, whistle a happy tune.... and wait for a new entry point.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Why do you consider it insulting? People have a right to voice their concerns such as EU citizens in the UK and vice versa. Even Micheal Gove of all people it's been reported.
> 
> I know for a fact if the referendum vote was reversed with the government going for a "hard remain" (adopt the Euro etc.) would have caused a similar backlash of opposition.
> 
> I would accept and understand that, so why won't you?


Nobody campaigned for a hard remain. You just made it up. Look in the mirror. You KNOW what we voted for. Go on, be honest; it'll make you feel better.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> Nobody campaigned for a hard remain. You just made it up. Look in the mirror. You KNOW what we voted for. Go on, be honest; it'll make you feel better.


No one ever said that, read it agsin the word is* IF*


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> No one ever said that, read it agsin the word is* IF*


I could try to explain to you using little words but my time would be wasted.


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> Nobody campaigned for a hard remain. You just made it up. Look in the mirror. You KNOW what we voted for. Go on, be honest; it'll make you feel better.


Yes indeed, I know that. A "Hard Remain" was never on the cards if the vote was reversed.

Having said that didn't the leave campaign warn of closer integration with Europe such as a European Army for example?

I merely said if that was the result and the government decided on adopting the Euro etc. I would understand the objections in view of the narrow referendum results even if I personally may have welcomed this.

Yes, I realised if supporting the Farage form of Brexit people would have an idea of what they were voting for, leaving the single market etc.

However, many were taken in by the £350m for the NHS and promises of a better life, even continued access to the single market while reducing immigration.

And why have this government opted for the Farage method? Farage isn't in government, he's not even an MP.

Like it or not, opposition to a hard Brexit will grow.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Like it or not, opposition to a hard Brexit will grow.


Really.

Article 50 Bill vote: 498 for to 114 against.
I can't see any opposition to a Hard Brexit there and the MP's represent there Constituencies that's you and me.

It's not called Hard or Soft Brexit anymore, it's just Brexit or no Brexit. Shows how far behind you are. Leave Campaigners were clear in there campaigning that the UK would be leaving the single market which the remain supporters didn't like and twisted to suit there cause see my post with Andrew Marr show video in it (Post 6280 page 314).


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Why do you consider it insulting? People have a right to voice their concerns such as EU citizens in the UK and vice versa. Even Micheal Gove of all people it's been reported.
> 
> I know for a fact if the referendum vote was reversed with the government going for a "hard remain" (adopt the Euro etc.) would have caused a similar backlash of opposition.
> 
> I would accept and understand that, so why won't you?


People were told during the campaigning that leaving the EU means leaving the Single Market. You choose to ignore that like some other remainers do.

Like you I stand my ground.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*2 YEARS? Brexit negotiations could take JUST 10 MINUTES 'and Ivan Rogers admitted it'*

Peter Lilley, who served under Margaret Thatcher and John Major, thinks if the EU shows some common sense regarding trade tariffs the negotiations could be wrapped-up in no time - and he claims Ivan Rogers agrees with him.

The UK's former Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom to the European Union, who sensationally resigned in January, apparently spoke with Mr Lilley and admitted there was no need for protracted talks.

If Britain is prepared to offer the EU a no tariff agreement and the EU is willing reciprocate then there is nothing left to talk about, according to the Tory grandee.

He said: "If we are starting from a position of no tariffs and are working towards a position of no tariffs then there's no need for it to take longer than 10 minutes."


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The Manifesto is Theresa May's mandate.


In which case the rest of the manifesto would be enforced.



> On this show he shows that the leave Campaign did indeed campaign to leave the Single Market but the remain side twisted this to suit there cause:


Staying in the EEA is staying in the single market so interviewer is also using misinformation and misrepresentation. Oops. He did in the campaign when talking about sweden in one interview trying to pull up a politician.

Whole thing says something about the information and the ability to provide an informed choice doesn't it? Remember when you had the whole idea of the EU stating you cannot have your cake and eat it. Why was this? This was because the leave campaign was pushing the fact that we could stay in the single market.



> You come on here after a break and the thread gets heated again and you focus on me, no one else, me. That is a form of bullying *STOP* picking on me and singling my posts out. OK.


No, I focus on information, not a person. It's not heated. The fact your latest argument revolves around "politician said" ignoring the rest of what they said matters.

Remember, if the referendum was binding, May wouldn't have lost the court cases where she used that as her arguments to push article 50 without parliament. Even in parliament, without an effective opposition at the moment and lack of a free vote that vote was hardly necessarily representative of the will of the people either.

May is not representing the majority of the population and what they want. Politicians have the responsibility to protect the country which is not what they are doing. People have the right to change the direction of this country when it will harm, not those in power and money, but everyday people.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If you want facts here are some which I pointed out before:

Scotland only narrowly voted remain.

Northern Ireland only voted remain very narrowly as well.

The only area of the UK that voted remain by a majority was Gibraltar.

Source of information is the electrol commission's website. Exact figures available on one of my previous posts.

*The UK voted as a whole to leave the EU as a no majority or super majority vote would win the Referendum. *This means the results reflect the whole of the UK not individual areas. No second Referendum because you didn't like the result of the first Referendum (The EU are renowned for doing this).

The UK is leaving the EU period.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I told everyone a while back that I have a voice like all the leave voters and I won't sit back and let the remain side of this debate put our cause down.


As is your right.



stockwellcat said:


> *The UK voted as a whole to leave the EU as a no majority or super majority vote would win the Referendum. *This means the results reflect the whole of the UK not individual areas.


Yes and it will be decision people will fight as long as they can for the simple reason, once we leave, we cannot go back. Unlike any other result, this is non-reversible. Democracy normally allows people to reverse and change opinion. Every 4 years for a GE. This doesn't. Same problem with things like Scotland independence. We'll keep getting them until the win no matter the damage. So tell me, why is it those supporting leave are so scared about giving the people a say to confirm what they want?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> As is your right.
> 
> Yes and it will be decision people will fight as long as they can for the simple reason, once we leave, we cannot go back. Unlike any other result, this is non-reversible. Democracy normally allows people to reverse and change opinion. Every 4 years for a GE. This doesn't.


This is if the Courts entertain anymore court cases relating to Brexit. The Judges in the High Court have to accept these court cases first and recently rejected one.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat said:


> If you want facts here are some which I pointed out before:
> 
> Scotland only narrowly voted remain.


Ah, the poor Scottish being led by an imbecile of a woman who's determined to have another Scottish referendum because she doesn't want to leave the EU. The irony is if they had voted to leave the UK in 2014 they would already be out of the EU anyway. I think we can safely say the Scottish don't know what they want.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Ah, the poor Scottish being led by an imbecile of a woman who's determined to have another Scottish referendum because she doesn't want to leave the EU. The irony is if they had voted to leave the UK in 2014 they would already be out of the EU anyway. I think we can safely say the Scottish don't know what they want.


(this is good)

Theresa May makes a case for 'our precious union' (edited version).


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> I could try to explain to you using little words but my time would be wasted.


Maybe little words are to big for you.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> FACTS
> 1) Throughout the leave Campaign about the EU referendum it was said over and over and over again that we would be leaving the Single Market. It is remain groups like Open Britain that have twisted what had been said. I knew when I cast my vote on Referendum day that it would mean leaving the single market which in turn means leaving the Customs Union as they are intertwined. It is the remain side that cannot get there heads around this.


As a matter of fact the EEA nations - Norway etc - are members of the single market but are not within the customs union. So leaving the former does not necessarily mean leaving the latter.

But as for that single market ...

Dan Hannan, MEP and leading Leave campaigner:


> Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market


I don't think he was listening while it was being made so clear.

It seems to me that many Leave voters were saying "We voted to be in a common market, and that's all we wanted," and that leaving the single (common) market was not their intention.

What the leading Brexiteers have been saying, though, is that we can (and will) leave the single market but then negotiate a free trade deal so that we retain all of its benefits. What's more, they seem to imply that failure to give us all these benefits, for free, and with none of the obligations, will somehow be an unreasonable act by the EU. As though it's reasonable to leave the club, stop paying the subscription, but carry on using it as normal. That fantasy is why we need a meaningful vote on the result of the negotiations.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Ah, the poor Scottish being led by an imbecile of a woman ........ I think we can safely say the Scottish don't know what they want.


Hmm.... Scotland voted 62% to remain for a start and democratically elected Ms Sturgeon as their leader!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dr Pepper said:


> Ah, the poor Scottish being led by an imbecile of a woman who's determined to have another Scottish referendum because she doesn't want to leave the EU. The irony is if they had voted to leave the UK in 2014 they would already be out of the EU anyway. I think we can safely say the Scottish don't know what they want.


Your view is so blinkered


----------



## cheekyscrip

Currently frontier queues for hours. Colleague came to work in the,afternoon!!!.
Shops empty. No chicken in Morrisons. Lorries were told the paperwork is wrong. It was the same paperwork as always.
Apparently new directives from Madrid.


While you just talking we actually have the effects.

Normally we would complain to Brussels.

So what now?


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Currently frontier queues for hours. Colleague came to work in the,afternoon!!!.
> Shops empty. No chicken in Morrisons. Lorries were told the paperwork is wrong. It was the same paperwork as always.
> Apparently new directives from Madrid.
> 
> *While you just talking we actually have the effects.*
> 
> Normally we would complain to Brussels.
> 
> So what now?


I really feel for you, if only people had really thought for what they were voting for instead of selfish reasons, me 1st me 2nd and me 3rd...........


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I really feel for you, if only people had really thought for what they were voting for instead of selfish reasons, me 1st me 2nd and me 3rd...........


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Farage isn't in government, he's not even an MP.


No your right, he is not an MP. Whether you like him or not, he's just a man who fought for 20yrs for something he believed in and won last year on
June the 23rd.
Maybe you if you have the time, you could watch this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> democratically elected Ms Sturgeon as their leader!


The conservative party was democratically elected in the last GE in 2015 and Theresa May won a party election that's voting by MP's and members of the party like Jeremy Corbyn did with Labour. The SNP was elected in Scotland not Nicola Sturgeon, Nicola took over from Alex Salmond. Again in the UK (This includes Scotland) we do not elect the leaders of parties we elect the Party based on there manifesto in Elections in the UK. The leaders of such parties are elected by that parties MP's and those that pay for party membership.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Happy Paws said:


> Your view is so blinkered


It's not blinkered, it's a fact. It's hypocritical to have another vote to leave the UK with the hope of staying in the EU because a yes vote in 2014 would have lead to them leaving the EU very quickly. It's a whole illogical mess.

Frankly I couldn't care if they are part of the UK or not.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Problems are many: Queues mean no trade, no income from tourism, which it the mainstay of our budget. Shops, bars, taxis all are losing money. 
No chicken yesterday and today. Had some turkey, but freezer will not go forever?

Prices went crazy. Jar of Nutella is 3.50 pounds, not euros!!!

Shopping in Spain with that exchange rate plus queues?
Whiskas Cat treats Party mix is now £ 1.91!!!! It was £ 1. Nearly doubled.
Cat food from 18 to £25!.

Scrip has special food available in Spain only ( allergy).


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> It's not blinkered, it's a fact. It's hypocritical to have another vote to leave the UK with the hope of staying in the EU because a yes vote in 2014 would have lead to them leaving the EU very quickly. It's a whole illogical mess.
> 
> Frankly I couldn't care if they are part of the UK or not.


Frankly they stayed to be in EU.
They will be out and still ruled by Westminster and May.
So what if they still want to be in EU?

If they are to be ruled from outside let them have choice?

Gibraltar has very palatable choices: Surrender to Spain and be damned.
They are total mess in Spain and will destroy,just simply because they can.
Or stay British, curl up and die.
Else join Dubs children ...
There might be thousands of homeless, jobless Brits coming back from Gibraltar. Most have no other passport, you know...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Frankly they stayed to be in EU.
> They will be out and still ruled by Westminster and May.
> So what if they still want to be in EU?
> 
> If they are to be ruled from outside let them have choice?


If they left the UK they'd be out of the EU and the EU leaders have told Scotland that they'd be at the back of the queue to join the EU or even to be considered for EU membership. Scotland aren't an EU member the UK as a whole is. So leaving the UK and the EU by default will make Scotland isolated, hard border with UK & Northern Ireland and the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> It's not blinkered, it's a fact. It's hypocritical to have another vote to leave the UK with the hope of staying in the EU because a yes vote in 2014 would have lead to them leaving the EU very quickly. It's a whole illogical mess.
> 
> Frankly I couldn't care if they are part of the UK or not.


How do you work this out? It was never the intention of Alex Salmond to withdraw from the EU had the independence vote won. Indeed, as an independent state they may have had to reapply to join of course.

The EU referendum was only talked about in 2014. The Tories were not expected to win the 2015 election out right. Had they had to enter another coalition the referendum may never have happened.

Incredible how things can change so much in two short years. In 2014 I would have voted to remain in the UK. Now with May's insistence Scotland has to endure a hard Brexit with the rest of the UK I'm now 100% in favour of independence.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> How do you work this out? It was never the intention of Alex Salmond to withdraw from the EU had the independence vote won. Indeed, as an independent state they may have had to reapply to join of course.
> 
> The EU referendum was only talked about in 2014. The Tories were not expected to win the 2015 election out right. Had they had to enter another coalition the referendum may never have happened.
> 
> Incredible how things can change so much in two short years. In 2014 I would have voted to remain in the UK. Now with May's insistence Scotland has to endure a hard Brexit with the rest of the UK I'm now 100% in favour of independence.


If Scotland go for this course of action do you know how isolated Scotland will become as a country? Do you know that the Shetland Islands are threatening to leave Scotland if Scotland take this course of action.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> If they left the UK they'd be out of the EU and the EU leaders have told Scotland that they'd be at the back of the queue to join the EU. Scotland aren't an EU member the UK as a whole is. So leaving the UK and the EU by default will make Scotland isolated, hard border with UK, Northern Ireland and the EU.


That is just the point!!! They would be out of EU.
So like it or not they stayed.
Now that they would be out of EU..why stay in UK?
To be ruled by Westminster?
What if they prefer to rule themselves?

Surprised?

I would if I were Scottish. They hard working, sensible people, very capable to think for themselves.

Why not let them decide what they think is good for them?

Now, that game is changed. 
Do they want to be in postBrexit UK?
Or not?
Whether they will apply to join EU or not that is another matter for them to decide, not for Westminster.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> That is just the point!!! They would be out of EU.
> So like it or not they stayed.
> Now that they would be out of EU..why stay in UK?
> To be ruled by Westminster?
> What if they prefer to rule themselves?
> 
> Surprised?
> 
> I would if I were Scottish. They hard working, sensible people, very capable to think for themselves.
> 
> Why not let them decide what they think is good for them?
> 
> Now, that game is changed.
> Do they want to be in postBrexit UK?
> Or not?
> Whether they will apply to join EU or not that is another matter for them to decide, not for Westminster.


How would they trade?
There nearest trading partner the UK they'd have a hard border with and do you know that the UK supplies the most trade to Scotland and the waters around Scotland belong to the UK crown not Scotland and then there's all the oil rigs also belong to the crown. The crown is the UK property.

Scotland would end up in isolationism leaving the UK and EU by default living standards would plummet and be worse than they are now in Scotland. Who would trade with a country that is massively in debt and would be worse off than the UK because it won't be cheap breaking up with the UK?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> How would they trade?
> There nearest trading partner the UK they'd have a hard border with and do you know that the UK supplies the most trade to Scotland and the waters around Scotland belong to the UK crown not Scotland and then there's all the oil rigs also belong to the crown. The crown is the UK property.
> 
> Scotland would end up in isolationism leaving the UK and EU by default.


If you do not worry how you would trade, with whom, on what rules and tariffs...why you worry about them?

That will not be your problem anyhow?

Are you afraid they might be ok and Britain the sore loser?

WHY you not bothered how Gibraltar will trade? How will survive?
When so worried about Scots?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> If you do not worry how you would trade, with whom, on what rules and tariffs...why you worry about them?
> 
> That will not be your problem anyhow?
> 
> Are you afraid they might be ok and Britain the sore loser?


Not at all cheeky. I don't honestly care they are crying freedom like Brave heart done. They are the ones that will suffer not the UK.

They are the ones that will have mass unemployment, low standards of living, poverty, soaring debts, no one to trade with, hard borders with England, Northern Ireland and Europe and be suffering from Isolationism as a country.

Good luck to them.
Again I don't give to sh**s about what Scotland decides to do.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Not at all cheeky. I don't honestly care they are crying freedom like Brave heart done. They are the ones that will suffer not the UK.


And what about us? Directly affected already?
Even my poor pets.


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> *And what about us?* Directly affected already?
> Even my poor pets.


Here you go Scrippy. Here's your answer, what more do you want?



stockwellcat said:


> cheeky I don't honestly care .


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> I really feel for you, if only people had really thought for what they were voting for instead of selfish reasons, me 1st me 2nd and me 3rd...........


As I've said before. I put my pension at risk for the benefit of future generations and the benefit of this country, and I voted out


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Here you go Scrippy. Here's your answer, what more do you want?


No that was my reply about Scotland not Gibraltar. I was just typing a reply about Gibraltar. I won't bother now


----------



## stockwellcat.

What's the point of contributing to this thread when remainers twist everything you say @Zaros  :Finger:Facepalm


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> Here you go Scrippy. Here's your answer, what more do you want?


I want the future my children might have had if not Brexit.
Funny if Brexit catches up with him. Will he recognize it if it bites him on his bum?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I want the future my children might have had if not Brexit.
> Funny if Brexit catches up with him. Will he recognize it if it bites him on his bum?


:Smuggrin:Hilarious:Finger


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I want the future my children might have had if not Brexit.
> Funny if Brexit catches up with him. Will he recognize it if it bites him on his bum?


I thought about everyone including me when I voted leave. Better off out of that club the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> No that was my reply about Scotland not Gibraltar. I was just typing a reply about Gibraltar. I won't bother now


Too late. You picked from my post what you wanted...


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> No that was my reply about Scotland not Gibraltar. I was just typing a reply about Gibraltar. I won't bother now


Oh. So you're quite comfortable with your prejudicial distinctions then?



stockwellcat said:


> What's the point of contributing to this thread when remainers twist everything you say @Zaros  :Finger:Facepalm


And the same too, can also be said of those who chose to leave. But just remember the little fact that seems to have been completely ignored, many ex pats were denied their right to vote, which makes the end result you, and many more like you favoured, rather questionable doesn't it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Oh. So you're quite comfortable with your prejudicial distinctions then?
> 
> And the same too, can also be said of those who chose to leave. But just remember the little fact that seems to have been completely ignored, many ex pats were denied their right to vote, which makes the end result you, and many more like you favoured, rather questionable doesn't it.


UK Government Referendum rules:
https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk/referendums

A referendum is a vote on a single issue.

*Each referendum has different rules on who can vote in it.*

To vote in a referendum you must:

be registered to vote
be 18 or over on the day of the referendum ('polling day')
be a British, Irish or Commonwealth citizen
be resident at an address in the UK or Gibraltar (or a British citizen living abroad who has been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years)
not be legally excluded from voting
You make one choice between 2 options. Votes are counted for the whole of the UK, not by constituency.

They are the rules I am afraid which as stipulated says the rules on who can vote vary.


----------



## stuaz

@cheekyscrip if you have queues at the border and no chicken in Morrisons what does the authorities normally do?

We are still in the EU and will be for a while so you can still go down the same channels surely?


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> UK Referendum rules:
> https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk/referendums
> 
> A referendum is a vote on a single issue.
> 
> Each referendum has different rules on who can vote in it.
> 
> To vote in a referendum you must:
> 
> 
> be registered to vote
> be 18 or over on the day of the referendum ('polling day')
> be a British, Irish or Commonwealth citizen
> *be resident at an address in the UK or Gibraltar (or a British citizen living abroad who has been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years)*
> not be legally excluded from voting
> You make one choice between 2 options. Votes are counted for the whole of the UK, not by constituency.
> 
> They are the rules I am afraid.


Here's why I and many others eligible and entitled to vote was denied;

Administration phuq ups!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ters-abroad-denied-postal-votes-a7098271.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Here's why I and many others eligible and entitled to vote was denied;
> 
> Administration phuq ups!
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ters-abroad-denied-postal-votes-a7098271.html


Yes and there was also those that have lived abroad longer than 15 years were excluded from being able to vote.

Sorry your vote wasn't counted due to postal delays.


----------



## Goblin

Zaros said:


> Here's why I and many others eligible and entitled to vote was denied;


Strange you push rules when they suit you. Rules also state referendums are to influence not decide policy.

Leavers cry out about democracy yet support restricting democracy whenever it endangers the result of the referendum. They fail to see how little brexit allows. More people can vote in a general election than could vote in the referendum.


----------



## Zaros

Goblin said:


> Strange you push rules when they suit you. Rules also state referendums are to influence not decide policy.
> 
> Leavers cry out about democracy yet fail to see how little brexit allows. More people can vote in a general election than could vote in the referendum.


Who's 'pushing rules'  I was simply stating a hard fact. Either I had a right to vote or I had no right at all.

In this particular case, it was the latter because I was deprived of a choice.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> @cheekyscrip if you have queues at the border and no chicken in Morrisons what does the authorities normally do?
> 
> We are still in the EU and will be for a while so you can still go down the same channels surely?


Oh yes...our Chief Minister recently visited Brussels. Has been told to talk to Westminster. 
Only in House of Lords protection of Gibraltar was mentioned. May went to Madrid already but no assurance came.

Nothing.

About the frontier being open.
Nothing but slogans, but nothing how things will be.
It has already profound effects on all investments in Gibraltar.
We cannot answer clients' questions either.
New buildings for our schools, long overdue are not going ahead.
Gaming is moving .

My work is so far till the end of 2017.
In 2018 company might move out...talks under way.

Clients simply less confident in Gibraltar.
Tell me what Brussels can do about it?

If companies want to move out?
Or Spain wants to be difficult?


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh yes...our Chief Minister recently visited Brussels. Has been told to talk to Westminster.
> Only in House of Lords protection of Gibraltar was mentioned. May went to Madrid already but no assurance came.
> 
> Nothing.
> 
> About the frontier being open.
> Nothing but slogans, but nothing how things will be.
> It has already profound effects on all investments in Gibraltar.
> We cannot answer clients' questions either.
> New buildings for our schools, long overdue are not going ahead.
> Gaming is moving .
> 
> My work is so far till the end of 2017.
> In 2018 company might move out...talks under way.
> 
> Clients simply less confident in Gibraltar.
> Tell me what Brussels can do about it?
> 
> If companies want to move out?
> Or Spain wants to be difficult?


But Spain has always been difficult? Brussels never really did anything to stop it properly. Yeah it may let off for a bit, but Spain soon came back to its usual ways once the dust had settled and the focus was away from them.

Gibraltar is the odd one in our group of countries as such, because unlike the mainland U.K. or the other territories around the world, Gibralters is soooo very much linked to the EU. Your local economy is such in twined with Europe in different ways to mainland U.K and you guys are more reliant on it. There is no denying that the rock will be more effected than any other area in the U.K.

Personally I believe you guys should stay in the EU but I also understand why from a political point of view you can't. You can't on one hand take the bits of the UK you want and not others. You guys have always wanted to remain British which I respect, but perhaps that may no longer be the most sensible choice?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...s-passports-european-parliament-a7614881.html


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 302430
> View attachment 302431


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...s-passports-european-parliament-a7614881.html
> 
> View attachment 302435
> View attachment 302436
> View attachment 302438
> View attachment 302440


Not before time.


----------



## stuaz

Anyone else noticed that this thread is basically becoming a place to copy and paste memes, images and (questionable...) newspaper headlines?


----------



## Goblin

Zaros said:


> Who's 'pushing rules'  I was simply stating a hard fact. Either I had a right to vote or I had no right at all.
> 
> In this particular case, it was the latter because I was deprived of a choice.


Sorry, wrong quote .. should have been :


stockwellcat said:


> UK Government Referendum rules:...
> They are the rules I am afraid which as stipulated says the rules on who can vote vary.


Fact is someone who pushes rules should abide by the rules such as referendums are to help influence policy, not set policy.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


>



So considering the UK fleet fishes outside UK waters, makes life interesting. Then of course the government allocates the quota and at present most of that is to foreign vessels not british ones. Thats nothing to do with the EU and will probably not change. You also have the fact it means small fishermen will be pushed out to make way for the large factory ships. What a rosy future for the average fishing vessel.
You mean end of accountability. We produced the EU bill of rights and the EU democratically made EU laws. Don't you approve of democracy? Well it does mean the UK government can get rid of pesky environment controls and people's rights. Pollutions levels in London due to new runway at heathrow now can be ignored. Great for the people of the UK isn't it.

Control immigration, had tools to do it before, simply didn't use them. Government doesn't even require EU immigrant registration unlike other EU countries. Ban immigrants from eastern EU countries for 7 years.. nope, government didn't do that. Insist people can support themselves, nope, government doesn't do that. Other EU countries do.

Make our own trade deals, losing out on 60+, having 0 when we leave. When negotiating new ones, we are in a poor position and they normally take 5-10 years each.
We are exempt from paying any more bailouts even if we stayed in the EU.
Leaving the single market is a definate negative, not a positive.

Immigrants housing/benefits are the responsibility of the government so why should it change? EU immigrants have to be able to support themselves, not rely on handouts to be eligible to stay according to EU law. Outside immigrants are nothing to do with the EU.

So all told, what a pile of rubbish.


----------



## KittenKong

Nothing from this far right government should surprise me but this did.

This just cannot be right. Something I would have expected from the Soviet Union, not from a supposedly democratic country.....
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...overnment-contracts-asked-if-they-back-brexit


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Sorry, wrong quote .. should have been :
> 
> Fact is someone who pushes rules should abide by the rules such as referendums are to help influence policy, not set policy.


I kind of knew that your post was aimed at me, let's be honest when isn't it. Poor @Zaros got caught in the cross fire.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

The UK has had Referendum's in the past and the Government has acted on them both binding and non-binding. You really need to get off you pedistol over this as everyone else has moved on and you are still bleeting on about the Referendum itself. In law the Referendum has been accepted and the Supreme Court Justices even said it was up to the Government to act on or not act on they couldn't interfere on this (that is the law). It was a non-binding Referendum that took the UK into the EEC the UK never got a Referendum to join the EU.

MP's have had a vote and the Article 50 bill went through the elected House of Commons with 498 for the bill and only 114 against the bill with no amendments. MP's have already had debates, many of them on issues surrounding Brexit and Committee meetings are being held regularly and devolved Assembly meetings as well (even though the Supreme Court Judges said that the Government does not have to consult devolved Assemblies/Government s over Brexit). So MP's are being kept informed at every stage and will continue having this happening until the EU Negotiations are over. They are even getting a vote on the final deal. This is democracy in action in the UK.

Today is the last debating day in the unelected House of Lord's and the final voting takes place tonight. The Article 50 bill then returns to the elected House of Commons to have amendments debated on and overturned. As it stands at the moment there is only one amendment. Peers (unelected Lord's) have been warned not to tie the hands of the Government for the EU negotiations as it could have disasterous consequences on the outcome of the negotiations and the UK ends up with a really bad deal.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> I kind of knew that your post was aimed at me, let's be honest when isn't it. Poor @Zaros got caught in the cross fire.


I believe it's called 'collateral damage' old chum. At least I should consider myself fortunate enough to tell the tale to my grandchildren.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> But Spain has always been difficult? Brussels never really did anything to stop it properly. Yeah it may let off for a bit, but Spain soon came back to its usual ways once the dust had settled and the focus was away from them.
> 
> Gibraltar is the odd one in our group of countries as such, because unlike the mainland U.K. or the other territories around the world, Gibralters is soooo very much linked to the EU. Your local economy is such in twined with Europe in different ways to mainland U.K and you guys are more reliant on it. There is no denying that the rock will be more effected than any other area in the U.K.
> 
> Personally I believe you guys should stay in the EU but I also understand why from a political point of view you can't. You can't on one hand take the bits of the UK you want and not others. You guys have always wanted to remain British which I respect, but perhaps that may no longer be the most sensible choice?


How nice of you. I know it is hard to imagine , but people are here actually immensely proud of Being British.

As you say: Spain tried and tried. But we had support from Britain and then also Brussels. When Spain applied to NATO Britain had chance to incorporate Gibraltar into mainland, give us a vote etc...
They did not!!!!
Now we have no support from our mother country whatsoever.

Joining dirty La Linea with 40% unemployment. Those employed work here!!!

It solves nothing. It means 30k homeless and unemployed British people who have to go to UK, because cannot go to EU.

Spanish flag on the Rock will surely announce to the world how powerful and mighty is Britain out of EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


>


That was brilliant.


----------



## Satori

stuaz said:


> Anyone else noticed that this thread is basically becoming a place to copy and paste memes, images and (questionable...) newspaper headlines?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Country that abandons their territory and their people basically shows to the world it is belly up.
This is why Margaret Thatcher sent the Navy to Falklands.
This why Spain sent whole armada to defend Isla de Perejil. Small rock with few goats, uninhabited, off Moroccan coast.

Worthless, except for the image. Morocco got the message.


I remember Falklands war as a child far away.
Everybody regardless of propaganda supported Brits in brave defense of their people however few, however far.


So much for national pride, so much for your own history, patriotism and flag waving.

Now you tell us to go to Spain?

That will make Britain really great again.

Like tying your dog to the tree and walking away, because you do not need it any more , though he guarded you for years.

That is the new Britain.
Not so great.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Lord's have voted against a second Referendum amendment 336 votes against to 131 for - a majority of 205.

This afternoon they are debating and voting on an amendment to give MP's a meaningful vote on the outcome of the EU deal and any other amendments in the report stage of the article 50 bill.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/07/lords-vote-against-second-brexit-referendum


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Lord's have voted in favour of a meaningful vote at the end of the EU Negotiations which could mean the UK will get offered a bad deal by the EU and the Government would be sent back to the EU to get another deal from Parliament and the House of Commons or Lords could potentially refuse a no deal scenario as these were mentioned in the clauses attached to this amendment made by the House of Lords. This amendment is giving the Houses of Parliament (Commons and Lords) a veto on Brexit. This amendment could seriously damage and undermine the Governments negotiating hand and chances during the negotiations from getting a good deal and jeopardise Brexit.

Hopefully this will get voted down/rejected again next week in the House of Commons to stop the bill being amended with this amendment. The Lord's pointed out it is down to Parliament if these amendments the Lord's voted on are accepted or rejected as they are unelected after all, there votes on these amendments are only recommendations nothing else as the Houses of Commons are the ones that make and create laws in the UK not the Houses of Lords (this was mentioned serveral times today by various Lords).

So the ping pong match begins next week between the two houses to either accept or reject these amendments. If the House of Commons overturn these suggested amendments by the House of Lords, the House of Lords will be forced to back down and pass the bill over for Royal Assent with no amendments. The elected MP's in the Elected House of Commons vote again next week on the two amendments suggested by the unelected House of Lords as the elected House of Commons has Supremacy over the unelected House of Lords.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...eto-over-final-outcome-of-brexit-negotiations


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> The Lord's have voted in favour of a meaningful vote at the end of the EU Negotiations which could mean the UK will get offered a bad deal by the EU and the Government would be sent back to the EU to get another deal from Parliament and the House of Commons or Lords could potentially refuse a no deal scenario as these were mentioned in the clauses attached to this amendment made by the House of Lords. This amendment is giving the Houses of Parliament (Commons and Lords) a veto on Brexit. This amendment could seriously damage and undermine the Governments negotiating hand and chances during the negotiations from getting a good deal and jeopardise Brexit.
> 
> Hopefully this will get voted down/rejected again next week in the House of Commons to stop the bill being amended with this amendment. The Lord's pointed out it is down to Parliament if these amendments the Lord's voted on are accepted or rejected as they are unelected after all, there votes on these amendments are only recommendations nothing else as the Houses of Commons are the ones that make and create laws in the UK not the Houses of Lords (this was mentioned serveral times today by various Lords).
> 
> So the ping pong match begins next week between the two houses to either accept or reject these amendments. If the House of Commons overturn these suggested amendments by the House of Lords, the House of Lords will be forced to back down and pass the bill over for Royal Assent with no amendments. The elected MP's in the Elected House of Commons vote again next week on the two amendments suggested by the unelected House of Lords as the elected House of Commons has Supremacy over the unelected House of Lords.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics...eto-over-final-outcome-of-brexit-negotiations


That is terrible!!!
Parliament has Meaningful Vote?

Disband the parliament!!! Disband the Lords!!! Off with independent judiciary!!!
No more media!!!

We want Tyranny right now!!!

Absolutely absolute.

People democratically want to put stop to democracy.No more.
Is that democracy or not?
Can democracy vote against itself?
Fascinating.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> That is terrible!!!
> Parliament has Meaningful Vote?
> 
> Disband the parliament!!! Disband the Lords!!! Off with independent judiciary!!!
> No more media!!!
> 
> We want Tyranny right now!!!
> 
> Absolutely absolute.
> 
> People democratically want to put stop to democracy.No more.
> Is that democracy or not?
> Can democracy vote against itself?
> Fascinating.


Funny to think the Labour left have campaigned for the abolition of the House of Lords for years, now the far right are too.

I wonder why? Pretty obvious to me!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 302507
> View attachment 302508
> View attachment 302509
> View attachment 302510
> View attachment 302511


Yes I did see it but do you know the House of Lords are only advisory and can only advise the House of Commons they are unelected after all.

The House of Commons, the elected House and law makers are set to overturn the amendments next week and if this happens the House of Lords will have to roll over and accept that the amendments won't be considered. The House of Commons have supremacy over the House of Lords. Your precious Open Britain didn't know that fact did they.

Oh and the Conservatives have the majority in the House of Commons by the way, notice there benches are always packed whilst the opposition side is always half empty (Labour etc).


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> That is terrible!!!
> Parliament has Meaningful Vote?
> 
> Disband the parliament!!! Disband the Lords!!! Off with independent judiciary!!!
> No more media!!!
> 
> We want Tyranny right now!!!
> 
> Absolutely absolute.
> 
> People democratically want to put stop to democracy.No more.
> Is that democracy or not?
> Can democracy vote against itself?
> Fascinating.


Nope not at all.
The amendments will be overturned next week in the elected House of Commons and then the House of Lords will have to roll over and accept this defeat and the bill will be passed with no amendments.

There is nothing to celebrate yet as the ping pong stage starts next week. The House of Lords will loose as the House of Commons have Supremacy over them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Funny to think the Labour left have campaigned for the abolition of the House of Lords for years, now the far right are too.
> 
> I wonder why? Pretty obvious to me!


Nothing to celebrate though the bill hasn't been revised yet, the amendments go back to the House of Commons to be overturned. The House of Lords are only advisory as the Lord's individually said all day today, I watched the whole 7 hours of debates.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The Lord's have voted in favour of a meaningful vote at the end of the EU Negotiations which could mean the UK will get offered a bad deal by the EU and the Government would be sent back to the EU to get another deal from Parliament and the House of Commons or Lords could potentially refuse a no deal scenario as these were mentioned in the clauses attached to this amendment made by the House of Lords. This amendment is giving the Houses of Parliament (Commons and Lords) a veto on Brexit. This amendment could seriously damage and undermine the Governments negotiating hand and chances during the negotiations from getting a good deal and jeopardise Brexit.


Wow.. democracy is not to be applauded is what you are saying. Negotiating position is the same as before. What is different is that the parliament decides if a deal is good for britain or May does. Then again, democracy seems to be only when they get there own way for leavers. When so confident in Britain's position, it wouldn't be such a problem would it.


----------



## Honeys mum

Theresa May is determined to throw out the amendment when the Bill returns to the Commons for its final reading next week. She believes her hand would be significantly weakened when she begins Brexit negotiations with the EU if Parliament had the power to stop her leaving without a deal.

Article 50 bill: Theresa May suffers defeat on 'meaningful vote' amendment as peers back the change by 366 to 268


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Wow.. democracy is not to be applauded is what you are saying. Negotiating position is the same as before. What is different is that the parliament decides if a deal is good for britain or May does. Then again, democracy seems to be only when they get there own way for leavers. When so confident in Britain's position, it wouldn't be such a problem would it.


Wrong.

The amendments go back to the House of Commons to be overturned. The House of Lords are only advisory and can only advise as the House of Commons have supremacy over them. If overturned next week the Lord's have to accept this and send the bill for royal assent. The Lord's individually said this for 7 hours during the debates today, I watched it all.

Two advisory amendments that got defeat before in the House of Commons and will be overturned next week.

The bill is unamended at this stage.

You are completely wrong at this stage as there is nothing to celebrate.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Theresa May is determined to throw out the amendment when the Bill returns to the Commons for its final reading next week. She believes her hand would be significantly weakened when she begins Brexit negotiations with the EU if Parliament had the power to stop her leaving without a deal.


You mean she couldn't impose whatever she likes. Given time, opposition may sort itself out, well you can hope, a one party state is not good for the country. People are also more likely to see the direct effects of Brexit.

Once we leave there is no turning back. Why shouldn't people have a voice?



stockwellcat said:


> The amendments go back to the House of Commons to be overturned. The House of Lords are only advisory


Like the referendum then.



> You are completely wrong at this stage as there is nothing to celebrate.


Who is celebrating? Common sense suggests democracy not dictatorship. Leavers have been saying leaving is such a good deal no matter what.. now when it's suggested that needs to be questioned before we actually leave they are against it. Wish they'd make up their minds.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You mean she couldn't impose whatever she likes. Given time, opposition may sort itself out, well you can hope, a one party state is not good for the country. People are also more likely to see the direct effects of Brexit.
> 
> Once we leave there is no turning back. Why shouldn't people have a voice?
> 
> Like the referendum then.
> 
> Who is celebrating? Common sense suggests democracy not dictatorship. Leavers have been saying leaving is such a good deal no matter what.. now when it's suggested that needs to be questioned before we actually leave they are against it. Wish they'd make up their minds.


It's suggested amendments @Goblin and if the House of Commons say no to these it means no as they are the Law makers not the House of Lords. The Lord's have no jurisdiction and they know that as they said it all day today during the debates.

Any how watch them be overturned/quashed next week (that is democracy in action not the House of Lords advising) you won't be mouthy then.

The second Referendum amendment was rejected by both houses so people won't get a say on the final deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@cheekyscrip
You might not need to worry about Spain as Spain and Poland plan ties with post-Brexit UK
http://www.ft.com/content/075bd5fe-0332-11e7-aa5b-6bb07f5c8e12
Shows there loyalties might not be with the EU after all.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> It's suggested amendments @Goblin and if the House of Commons say no to these it means no as they are the Law makers not the House of Lords. The Lord's have no jurisdiction and they know that as they said it all day today during the debates.
> 
> Any how watch them be overturned/quashed next week (that is democracy in action not the House of Lords advising) you won't be mouthy then.
> 
> The second Referendum amendment was rejected by both houses so people won't get a say on the final deal.


" People won't get a say"- how great!!!

TMay, year ago campaigning for Remain, realised that " people" better shuddup and do as told.
Give them even advisory referendum and look at the mess!


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> " People won't get a say"- how great!!!
> 
> TMay, year ago campaigning for Remain, realised that " people" better shuddup and do as told.
> Give them even advisory referendum and look at the mess!


What mess?
We are leaving the mess across the channel in the EU.
Oh didn't you hear that last night France, Germany and Italy are planning to give EU countries a chance to show there loyalty to the EU. I predict many of them will give up and leave the club.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*More than 135,000 EU nationals have applied to live in Britain permanently in just six months, ministers reveal*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-nationals-latest-residency-stay-theresa-may-brexit-lords-vote-mps-a7614946.html?amp

It is a 'nightmare' bureaucratic process which involves filling in a 85-page form - but the Home Office is being inundated with applications for residency.

More than 135,000 EU nationals have applied to live in Britain permanently in just six months, it has been revealed - ahead of a Commons showdown next week.

The Home Office is being inundated with bids for residency, as Theresa May continues to fight pressure to guarantee EU citizens can remain in the country after Brexit.

Applicants are plunged into what has been called a "nightmare" bureaucratic process of filling in a 85-page form at a cost of £65. The guidance notes alone run to 18 pages.

They must prove they have been living and working in the UK for the past five years, providing documents for every occasion they have left the UK in that period.

Such information is no longer included in many passports because of the EU's free movement of people, critics have pointed out.

And EU nationals who have not been working must show they took out comprehensive health insurance - a requirement that was little known until recently.

Next week, the Prime Minister is expected to urge the Commons to overturn last week's humiliating defeat in the Lords, which voted overwhelmingly to give all 3m EU nationals the right to stay in Britain.

Peers warned of the "devastating consequences" facing public services and the economy without EU workers - as well as the fear many feel about their future.

In the Commons, Home Office minister Robert Goodwill gave no indication of a U-turn that would see the Government offer a unilateral guarantee.

But he said: "The latest data show that in the two quarters following the referendum there were 136,479 applications received for residence documentation from EU nationals and their family members."

Chi Onwurah, a Labour MP, said EU nationals are an integral part of the British community, working in hospitals, universities and at top-flight football clubs.

She added: "Do you realise how insecure they feel as bargaining chips? And how do you justify charging them for the privilege?"

In reply, the minister said: "Whilst they are here and we are members of the European Union, they can exercise their treaty rights and, as the Home Secretary has already said, we wish to sort this situation out as soon as possible.

"And, of course, we also need to recognise the status of the UK nationals elsewhere in the European Union, who deserve and want the same protections."


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> @cheekyscrip
> You might need to worry about Spain as Spain and Poland plan ties with post-Brexit UK
> http://www.ft.com/content/075bd5fe-0332-11e7-aa5b-6bb07f5c8e12
> Shows there loyalties might not be with the EU after all.


Why should I worry about Spain? They would stay in EU and get Gibraltar as a token of affection from May ( else they can block UK in WTO).
Poland is a mess. Ultra right is in power destroying judiciary system, constitution etc...
President and PM are puppets in hands of ruling party leader Kaczynski.
Economy is suffering .
Very worrying.
But Poland will not leave EU. 
But Polish are critical of Merkel and so am I.

She definitely overstepped her mark. She can make decisions in the name of Germany, they elected her, but not in the name of whole EU.
Really wonder what is going on, they knew how other countries would react to that?
Why Russia has a laundering business in Deutsche Bank?

Pouring money into Trump and his family.

Trump has German origins by the way.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Trump has German origins by the way.


I thought it was Scottish origins as his mum was Scottish?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> They must prove they have been living and working in the UK for the past five years, providing documents for every occasion they have left the UK in that period.


Strange when most EU countries require foreigners to actually register and provide proof they can support themselves to be allowed to stay. It's required to obtain residency and that includes being able to provide health provisions. Yet another example where the lies of the leave campaign about "control" falls flat when you look at the facts. Government had powers which were never even used. Why would health insurance be required when paying NI and tax for employment? Or are they now saying EU immigrants should be treated differently from UK nationals, a second class of people?

As far as protections of UK nationals in the EU, they are better protected by EU regulations than the UK which as part of the leaving process have already said they are changing things like human right regulations. They actually have defined rights enshrined in the EU and with a court of appeal at a higher level than the country concerned. Not the case in the UK.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat said:


> I thought it was Scottish origins as his mum was Scottish?


Yes, I believe that's true, but many have implied his dad was Hitler hence the German influence!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Why should I worry about Spain?


 Sorry typo of there, I have corrected it on my post.


> She definitely overstepped her mark. She can make decisions in the name of Germany, they elected her, but not in the name of whole EU.


Why you worried about the EU, Gibraltar will be out of the EU like they always wanted in the past. But obviously this changed somewhere in recent history. Everyone I know that used to live in Gibraltar have always told me that many of the locals always wanted out of the EU due to various issues. The locals there now seem to have changed there minds about this, makes you wonder where there loyalties are being a UK naval and military base for decades.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> It's suggested amendments @Goblin and if the House of Commons say no to these it means no as they are the Law makers not the House of Lords. The Lord's have no jurisdiction and they know that as they said it all day today during the debates.


Again, like the referendum.



> Any how watch them be overturned/quashed next week (that is democracy in action not the House of Lords advising) you won't be mouthy then.


Oh be assured, I'll still use my right to be mouthy.



> The second Referendum amendment was rejected by both houses so people won't get a say on the final deal.


Don't need a referendum to pressure MP's though do you, although it would have provided made any final decision conclusive. As it stands the division of the people in the UK will continue for longer.

Edit: Trump does have german roots. Quite a bit was made about it here in Germany. 
http://www.economist.com/news/unite...as-hidden-shaped-donald-trump-kallstadts-king


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes, I believe that's true, but many have implied his dad was Hitler hence the German influence!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Again, like the referendum.
> 
> Oh be assured, I'll still use my right to be mouthy.
> 
> Don't need a referendum to pressure MP's though do you, although it would have provided made any final decision conclusive. As it stands the division of the people in the UK will continue for longer.


There might not be an EU in two years time. Merkel, Holland and whoever it is that runs Italy have said they are going to allow other EU member countries to show there loyalty to the EU, I predict many will give up and leave.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Trump does have german roots. Quite a bit was made about it here in Germany.
> http://www.economist.com/news/unite...as-hidden-shaped-donald-trump-kallstadts-king


Has he got any golf courses over there 
Scotland does.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> There might not be an EU in two years time. Merkel, Holland and whoever it is that runs Italy have said they are going to allow other EU member countries to show there loyalty to the EU, I predict many will give up and leave.


Perhaps this is wishful thinking on your part. I don't understand what the EU have done to upset you?

You forget these countries have been members for many years longer than the UK and have more in common with each other. UK governments have always resisted further integration and have always had one foot in, another foot out of the EEC/EU as someone here pointed out.

As for Poland, like other Eastern European countries. Having been occupied by the Soviet Union for many years within the Iron Curtain I would very much doubt, in spite of a right wing government, they would risk an EU exit with Putin flexing his muscles as he is at the moment.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps this is wishful thinking on your part. I don't understand what the EU have done to upset you?
> 
> You forget these countries have been members for many years longer than the UK and have more in common with each other. UK governments have always resisted further integration and have always had one foot in, another foot out of the EEC/EU as someone here pointed out.
> 
> As for Poland, like other Eastern European countries. Having been occupied by the Soviet Union for many years within the Iron Curtain I would very much doubt, in spite of a right wing government, they would risk an EU exit with Putin flexing his muscles as he is at the moment.


Do you have a crystal ball or something that can see into the future?
Throughout the debate yesterday Lords kept reiterating that nobody knows what the world will be like in 2 years time even if the EU will still be around as even now there are countries within the EU that want separate deals with the UK after Brexit which goes against EU rules and policies, there is even talk of having a two teir EU which was talked about on Monday by Merkel, Hollande and whoever the Italian PM is. I wish the EU the best of luck.

Regarding Russia, some of the NATO members who don't pay there full share of the NATO budget should pay it. The UK and America have always paid more than there fair share of the NATO budget, some other countries in Europe that are members of NATO don't. America and the UK aren't happy about this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...o-allies-to-pay-fair-share-amid-fears-donald/

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm?

It was me that said the UK has had one foot in and one foot out of the EU for 40 odd years a while ago on this thread.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Lord's were forewarned by Theresa May.

*Lord Heseltine sacked as government adviser after Brexit rebellion*

http://news.sky.com/story/lord-hese...nment-adviser-after-brexit-rebellion-10794263


----------



## noushka05

Once again brilliant Caroline Lucas nails it .








*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* 12h12 hours ago

Damning indictment of process in the Commons as once again it's unelected Lords
who are doing proper job of scrutiny & challenge #*Brexit*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Once again brilliant Caroline Lucas nails it .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* 12h12 hours ago
> 
> Damning indictment of process in the Commons as once again it's unelected Lords
> who are doing proper job of scrutiny & challenge #*Brexit*


In her dreams. The amendments are set to be overturned next week in Parliament during the elected House of Commons and unelected House of Lords ping pong match.

Lord Heseltine has been fired as Government advisor for his betrayal towards the Government. The leaping lords where warned.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> In her dreams. The amendments are set to be overturned next week in Parliament during the elected House of Commons and unelected House of Lords ping pong match.
> 
> Lord Heseltine has been fired as Government advisor for his betrayal towards the Government. The leaping lords where warned.


This government of extremists are intent on driving us all off a cliff - and you're cheering them on. Why?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> This government of extremists are intent on driving us all off a cliff - and you're cheering them on. Why?
> 
> View attachment 302529


No they aren't.
Maybe in your world.
The bill is simple it is to trigger Article 50, these amendments aren't for this bill. Last night's amendment shows how bitter the remainers are in the House of Lords. Parliament was told they will get a vote before the bill was commended to the House in the elected House of Commons and they will now be held accountable because this was announced. What the Lord's want to achieve is a veto to stop Brexit because of there EU pensions which will be cut or stopped because the UK is leaving. Also this amendment also ties the hands of the Government during the Negotiations as they would have to keep coming back to Parliament asking if this and that is ok. How I know all this is because I watched the whole debate in the House of Lords yesterday and they have several clauses in the amendment as well. The Lord's will be defeated next week.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Sorry typo of there, I have corrected it on my post.
> Why you worried about the EU, Gibraltar will be out of the EU like they always wanted in the past. But obviously this changed somewhere in recent history. Everyone I know that used to live in Gibraltar have always told me that many of the locals always wanted out of the EU due to various issues. The locals there now seem to have changed there minds about this, makes you wonder where there loyalties are being a UK naval and military base for decades.


Has Gibraltar ever expressed desire to be out of EU?
Fake news. What are your sources?
Fox TV?
Trump's German roots as below.Why , oh why you do not ever check? It is so simple.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Has Gibraltar ever expressed desire to be out of EU?
> Fake news. What are your sources?
> Fox TV?


Not fake news. I know people who used to live in Gibraltar and are fuming Gibraltar voted the way they did. They said that Gibraltar has always been at logger heads with Spain and there fishermen. You can't deny that as it is true.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Not fake news. I know people who used to live in Gibraltar and are fuming Gibraltar voted the way they did. They said that Gibraltar has always been at logger heads with Spain and there fishermen. You can't deny that as it is true.
> 
> If they are British in Gibraltar they will have to go with what the Government says as Gibraltar belongs to the UK crown as an asset. There is no separate deals for separate states of the UK, the Referendum was asked to the whole of the UK and therefore the outcome of the Referendum affects the whole of the UK and it's assets.


You may know someone in Gibraltar but doubt they are Gibraltarians. 
Yes. Some 100 voted for Brexit. They feel mighty stupid now.

My friend does. Now that we will be unemployed, at least she should not complain. Her own doing. She thought we will stay in single market. How naive .

That is will be reasonable exit, with EU people protected, because Britain is fair, just, sensible and so on...

Not long ago you thought Gibraltar lives off fishing? You friend in Gibraltar is well informed indeed.
There is no fishing industry here at all. Only licence for rod fishing as a hobby. Or spear fishing.
Spain wants to take over our waters to cut off supplies coming by the sea


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> You may know someone in Gibraltar but doubt they are Gibraltarians.
> Yes. Some 100 voted for Brexit. They feel mighty stupid now.
> Not long ago you thought Gibraltar lives off fishing? You friend in Gibraltar is well informed indeed.
> *There is no fishing industry here at all. Only licence for rod fishing as a hobby. Or spear fishing*.


*Gibraltar and Spain clash in fishing rights dispute*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18200678

*Gibraltar dispute: Spanish fishermen in reef protest*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23744559

*Gibraltar fishing dispute escalates*
http://www.politico.eu/article/gibraltar-fishing-dispute-escalates/amp/

2013: *A modern-day Spanish Armada: Flotilla of fishermen in stand off over man-made reef with Royal Navy and police boats after going into British waters around Gibraltar*
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-fishermen-stand-Royal-Navy-police-boats.html

2015: *Row after Spanish government sends boats into UK waters around Gibraltar*
http://theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/09/row-spanish-government-boats-uk-waters-gibraltar

My friend's dad was stationed in Gibraltar in the Royal Navy and his family lived there.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> This government of extremists are intent on driving us all off a cliff - and you're cheering them on. Why?
> 
> View attachment 302529


This comment from the Guardian site sums up May perfectly:


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Good old Michael Heseltine, one of the very few Tories I have respect for.
> 
> This comment from the Guardian site sums up May perfectly:
> 
> View attachment 302545


I don't know why you think he is good?
All he has done is cause the amendments voted for to be sent back to the House of Commons to be considered and rejected. Nothing has been achieved except a ping pong match between the two houses of Parliament in the 13th March 2017 all day and overnight until the bill is passed with no amendments. By the 15th March 2017 TM will have the power to trigger Article 50.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> The Lord's were forewarned by Theresa May.
> 
> *Lord Heseltine sacked as government adviser after Brexit rebellion*
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/lord-hese...nment-adviser-after-brexit-rebellion-10794263


Good old Micheal Heseltine, one of the very few Tories I have any respect for. He's not afraid to resign or be dismissed for what he passionately believes in which we saw under Thatcher.

Always wanted to shake his hand after challenging Thatcher the way he did, more so now.

What gives May the right to threaten her staff who disagree with her? This is a very worrying threat to democracy as we know it yet, as Noushka says, you're cheering her on. Good luck with that.

By the way I would say the same if Corbyn reverts to the 3LW again and sacks any of his cabinet for going against him.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> *What gives May the right to threaten her staff who disagree with her? *This is a very worrying threat to democracy as we know it yet, as Noushka says, you're cheering her on. Good luck with that.


It's called whipping her party in line including the Lord's like Jeremy Corbyn did. What gives her the right is she is the leader of the elected party in power and he was employed by the Government as a Government advisor. This is democracy in action.

Of course I am cheering her on she is taking the UK out of the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I don't know why you think he is good?
> All he has done is cause the amendments voted for to be sent back to the House of Commons to be considered and rejected.


He's a very principled man who stands up for what he believes in, certainly not a yes man.

Yes article 50 will be implemented, but will everyone sit back and accept it, the answer to that is NO. Sorry to disappoint you.

The fight will go on. I can't wait to report back from the Edinburgh protest on May 25th!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> He's a very principled man who stands up for what he believes in, certainly not a yes man.
> 
> Yes article 50 will be implemented, but will everyone sit back and accept it, the answer to that is NO. Sorry to disappoint you.
> 
> *The fight will go on. I can't wait to report back from the Edinburgh protest on May 25th*!


What fight?

A few hundred or few thousand people on a march isn't the 17.4 million that voted to leave. UK Governments ignore such protests.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> It's called whipping her party in line including the Lord's like Jeremy Corbyn did. What gives her the right is she is the leader of the elected party in power and he was employed by the Government as a Government advisor. This is democracy in action.
> 
> Of course I am cheering her on she is taking the UK out of the EU.


It's only democracy in action as you support a hard Brexit in my view.

1.8m signing a petition calling for Trump's visit to be postponed completely ignored. That's NOT democracy.

Complete withdrawl from Europe and giving the country to Trump instead.

That's not democratic either. The UK didn't vote for him.

How wonderful.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> What fight?
> 
> A few hundred or few thousand people on a march isn't the 17.4 million that voted to leave. UK Governments ignore such protests.


They were eventually forced to listen following the Poll Tax demos though. Don't forget that also was the "will of the people" who voted them in for the third time....

You again ignore the will of the Scottish people. Not one district in Scotland voted to leave. I'd imagine the anti Brexit feeling will be very strong up there.

Northern Ireland and Gibraltar will surely follow. With the former the pro Brexit DUP's lead has reduced to one seat in their recent election.









http://www.stopthesilence.co.uk/


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps you haven't heard of "16 million and rising"!!!


That's the 16 million who voted remain. Still not the 17.4 million who voted leave. 17.4 million is still a larger number.

The chance of a second Referendum was thrown out by the House of Commons and yesterday by the House of Lords so this won't be happening.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> This government of extremists are intent on driving us all off a cliff - and you're cheering them on. Why?
> 
> View attachment 302529


It's a cute cartoon but we both know it didn't really play out like that, right?

There was a clear and unambiguous referendum result on Jun 23rd. It was very close and what should have followed was a period of consolidation during which thinkers on both sides of the debate help our lawmakers to execute Brexit well, to avoid the pitfalls and unintended consequences that our government machinery is typically so poor at doing.

Instead, a mendacious and morally bankrupt loud minority from the remain side of the debate (later to be known as remoaners) took to their various keyboards and soapboxes to derail the democratic process and to vilify those who, in their majority, made an informed vote to leave. Alternatives to a real Brexit were proffered, all of which amounted to remaining. Those who voted to leave were called stupid deluded racists. Many who started this trouble were actually quite intelligent and would have been better employed helping the process of execution but they passive-aggressively pretended to be dumb so as to conceal their lack of any real argument. This allowed the genuinely stupid, who didn't understand the arguments at all, to swell their ranks - the blindfolded leading the blind. We've all seen it.

It was never going to end well. All that's happened is that many leavers have become more hardline and more entrenched in their views. I know I have. I am not particularly political. I study potential black swans very closely in case their is a chance to make a quick buck but I don't really care too much about the outcomes. Yet, I feel increasingly passionate about Brexit and it is at least partly because I want to see the remoaners squeal.

So, if you remoaners are feeling that this has become a civil war of words, increasingly nasty, dividing the country etc.... you are probably right. But you brought it on. Losers.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The more the remoaners moan the stronger my convictions are that I was right in standing by what I always said I would do and that is that if given a chance on a question about remaining or leaving the EU I would vote leave.

As soon as the 15th March 2017 comes around the sooner the UK can get on with triggering Article 50. I hear remainers saying what is so significant about the 15th March 2017. Well let me explain on the 13th March 2017 the House of Commons and House of Lords have a full day and night on playing ping pong over the suggested amendments by the House of Lords until the amendments are defeated. The House of Lords are not allowed to return the same amendment back to the House of Commons to be voted on again after it has been defeated in the House of Commons so this will be interesting, they can send back a similar watered down amendment though until all versions of that amendment are defeated in the House of Commons. The Government intends on defeating both amendments put forward for consideration from the House of Lords and these suggested amendments can only be defeated in the House of Commons. Both houses of Parliament can only debate these two amendments and any watered down versions of these amendments on the same subjects, they cannot debate any other amendments that have already been defeated. They then argue the wording of the bill which can just remain as it is before it is given Royal Assent which will happen sometime on the 14th March 2017. The Article 50 bill will then become law. So at PMQ's on Wednesday 15th March 2017 (this is the earliest TM can give Article 50 notification to the EU and seeing as this process needs to be completed before the 31st March 2017 the Lord's said yesterday they believe it will happen on the 15th March 2017 or a day or so after) is the day from which Theresa May can trigger Article 50 in accordance with the Article 50 wording/clause, she technically doesn't have to go to the EU and hand over a letter (although I do believe she intends going to the EU Parliament and handing in the Notification personally, so I wouldn't be surprised if she cancels PMQ's on the 15th March 2017 to go to the EU Parliament to trigger Article 50), she can do it on TV infront of the nation at PMQ's as it doesn't state in the Article 50 clause how article 50 should be triggered. The Government and Parliament want to just get on with the negotiations respecting the will of the majority (regardless of how slim this majority was) who won the referendum on the 23rd June 2016.

The keyboard remoaners can keep moaning with there threat of a cyber civil war of words whilst in the real world the UK prepares to leave the EU in 2019.


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> This government of extremists are intent on driving us all off a cliff - and you're cheering them on. Why?
> 
> View attachment 302529


Well I for one would rather be on the sunny beach below rather than stay on the precarious cliff top that is the undemocratic EU.


----------



## KittenKong

http://campaign2018.org/


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> This government of extremists are intent on driving us all off a cliff - and you're cheering them on. Why?
> 
> View attachment 302529


Noushka, I know this is a serious post but the moustache made me laugh out loud.

So appropriate!


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Well I for one would rather be on the sunny beach below rather than stay on the precarious cliff top that is *the undemocratic EU*.


My constituency is Tory. Always has been, and always will be. Unless I vote Tory - which I haven't since Thatcher ruled - my vote has absolutely no influence whatsoever on the makeup of Parliament.

My vote in the European elections is added to all the others, and will have a small but real influence on the makeup of the European Parliament. My vote may not count for much, but it counts just as much as anyone else's.

Which system would you say is the better reflection of democracy?


----------



## cheekyscrip

That is quite a new take on democracy.

If you an adviser to government and you happen to disagree then you ARE FIRED.

Government wants only Yes Men as advisers.

Trump would be so proud of TM, his best in class l.

That is democracy just like in Kremlin.

My respect to Heseltine.

I understand TM made it clear now.

This is how exactly things were behind Iron Curtain.
No one could disagree.

If so: Fired.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Well I for one would rather be on the sunny beach below rather than stay on the precarious cliff top that is the undemocratic EU.


Strange.. You vote for MEP's, you vote for government. They are the ones who decide EU enforceable rules. So how is that undemocratic? Wait, what you really mean is we don't get our own way all the time. Well that's democracy for you. So they appoint people, civil servants into position.. guess what, haven't elected May either directly. No difference. Are you now saying the UK is undemocratic?


----------



## KittenKong

More Brexit woes from the beloved Mail of all papers

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/re...elay-UK-investment-decision-Brexit-terms.html

Isn't getting your country back wonderful?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> More Brexit woes from the beloved Mail of all papers
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/re...elay-UK-investment-decision-Brexit-terms.html
> 
> Isn't getting your country back, sorry given to Trump wonderful?
> 
> View attachment 302616


----------



## cheekyscrip

Nothing more depressing than unfounded optimism...
Based on wishful thinking.
Slogans. Flag waving and lies.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Flag waving


I'd prefer flying and waving this flag which is of the United Kingdom, it's called the Union Jack









Than this flag








Just thought, the EU will have to remove one of the stars


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> My constituency is Tory. Always has been, and always will be. Unless I vote Tory - which I haven't since Thatcher ruled - my vote has absolutely no influence whatsoever on the makeup of Parliament.
> 
> My vote in the European elections is added to all the others, and will have a small but real influence on the makeup of the European Parliament. My vote may not count for much, but it counts just as much as anyone else's.
> 
> Which system would you say is the better reflection of democracy?


I like the kind of democracy that has been voted in by a countries population. We've never been given the vote to join the EU. Never. It's been railroaded into our way of life, and that's undemocratic. Thankfully we've now got a out.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> I like the kind of democracy that has been voted in by a countries population. We've never been given the vote to join the EU. Never. It's been railroaded into our way of life, and that's undemocratic. Thankfully we've now got a out.


 The Conservative manifesto for 1970 must have mentioned the impending joining of the Common Market if elected. People who voted Tory that year must've been aware of that?

There was a Yes/No vote in 1975 which unanimously backed Yes to staying in.

Significant perhaps the popular press were mainly pro Common Market in those days....


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I'd prefer flying and waving this flag which is of the United Kingdom, it's called the Union Jack
> View attachment 302618
> 
> 
> Than this flag
> View attachment 302619
> 
> Just thought, the EU will have to remove one of the stars


Oh yes, be prepared the Union Flag may look a little different in a few years time!

Nothing pleases me more than to see a countries flag next to the EU one, saw several examples of this in Spain and Cyprus.

The EU never planned to ban individual countries flags. Whether one wishes to wave the EU or countries flags is entirely optional.

I'll be waving the EU and Scotland flags with much pride later this month.

Oh yes, they may not need to remove one of the stars if Ireland end up united (and the North will become part of the EU again as East Germany did when they unified with the West), and/or Scotland becomes independent.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Maybe if all that flag waving could be used as the source of natural renewable energy?
It might come useful?

Any engineers here?

@stockwellcat may offer for a prototype?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Oh yes, be prepared the Union Flag may look a little different in a few years time!
> 
> Nothing pleases me more than to see a countries flag next to the EU one, saw several examples of this in Spain and Cyprus.
> 
> The EU never planned to ban individual countries flags. Whether one wishes to wave the EU or countries flags is entirely optional.
> 
> I'll be waving the EU and Scotland flags with much pride later this month.
> 
> Oh yes, they may not need to remove one of the stars if Ireland end up united (and the North will become part of the EU again as East Germany did when they unified with the West), and/or Scotland becomes independent.


Doubt it very very much.
One does like to protest about a country one isn't in. You live in England.
Scotland won't be going anywhere so they can cry freedom as much as they like they don't have the powers to call a referendum without permission from Westminster they are only a devolved state. Being devolved does not give them or grant them powers to hold a referendum as these powers have to be granted by Westminster and given Royal Assent by the Queen. It's tough but they are a member of the UK first and was never a member as an individual country of the EU ever. Devolved powers can be taken away you know, this might be happening to Northern Ireland in two weeks time if no power sharing Government is formed and direct rule reinstated from Westminster via emergency legislation same can happen to Scotland if they over step the powers they have been granted and attempt to do something they aren't legally allowed to do, Scotland never had a power to call a referendum this falls under reserved powers that Westminster hold over all devolved areas of the UK, they can request one but this has already been rejected on numerous occasions until after the 2020 General Election.

The EU leaders have told Kranky that she cannot have a separate deal during the negotiations and Scotland must leave the UK first. If they leave the UK they must apply like any other country wanting to join the EU and they won't be given any special treatment and will be at the back of the queue after Turkey (at the moment). They have to leave the UK first is the key words in this and the UK Government has said they can't have another Referendum until after 2020.

Again I don't really care if Scotland stays or leaves the UK (I was just pointing out a few facts) but you keep bringing this up @KittenKong so it must be worrying you somewhat that Scotland is and will remain part of the UK there biggest single market place whom Scotland get most of there trade from. Scotland fail to realise that the UK has the second biggest economy in the G8 (Germany is first) which was announced today in the budget despite Brexit looming the economy has remained robust since 23rd June 2016.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Doubt it very very much.
> One does like to protest about a country one isn't in. You live in England.
> Scotland won't be going anywhere so they can cry freedom as much as they like they don't have the powers to call a referendum without permission from Westminster they are only a devolved state. Being devolved does not give them or grant them powers to hold a referendum as these powers have to be granted by Westminster and given Royal Assent by the Queen. It's tough but they are a member of the UK first and was never a member as an individual country of the EU ever. Devolved powers can be taken away you know, this might be happening to Northern Ireland in two weeks time if no power sharing Government is formed and direct rule reinstated from Westminster via emergency legislation same can happen to Scotland if they over step the powers they have been granted and attempt to do something they aren't legally allowed to do, Scotland never had a power to call a referendum this falls under reserved powers that Westminster hold over all devolved areas of the UK, they can request one but this has already been rejected on numerous occasions until after the 2020 General Election.


Hmmm..... I think you're very wrong there.

For a start Scotland were promised a further say on their matters, not less. Looks as if May intends to return to the days of full Westminster rule which will not go down well.

For that matter, the return to Westminster rule will not go down well in NI either.

It amuses me how frightened you and your right wing friends are so determined to refuse Scotland a say in its own affairs. Are you really frightened Scotland will vote for independence this time and your precious flag will change?

You never know, the people of Scotland might decide they see staying in the UK more important than leaving the EU. Only the people of Scotland can decide that, not Westminster 300 miles away.

As for your criticism of me intending to wave the Scottish and EU flag may I remind you of Rod Stewart, an Englishman, who loves Scotland.

http://www.45cat.com/record/riva15

I might be English, born in the border county of Northumberland, but I feel I have far more in common with Scotland than those south of Watford thank you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> It amuses me how frightened you and your right wing friends are so determined to refuse Scotland a say in its own affairs. Are you really frightened Scotland will vote for independence this time and your precious flag will change?


 I am not frieghtened what-so-ever I don't give two sh**s if Scotland stay or leave the UK. They had there say in 2014 knowing full well there was going to be an EU referendum. What I do give a sh** about is my hard earned taxes being wasted on Scotland having a second Referendum as us UK tax payers have to pay for it. As was said recently Kranky does not respect the will of the Scottish people who voted to remain in the UK in 2014.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> The Conservative manifesto for 1970 must have mentioned the impending joining of the Common Market if elected. People who voted Tory that year must've been aware of that?
> 
> There was a Yes/No vote in 1975 which unanimously backed Yes to staying in.
> 
> Significant perhaps the popular press were mainly pro Common Market in those days....


Are you actually aware of the huge differences between the EEC we voted to join and the EU we have been railroaded into today? Last June was the first time we've had a say on the current state of affairs, and it appears the majority are not happy with how the EEC has morphed into the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Are you actually aware of the huge differences between the EEC we voted to join and the EU we have been railroaded into today? Last June was the first time we've had a say on the current state of affairs, and it appears the majority are not happy with how the EEC has morphed into the EU.


Personally I think being part of the EU was the best thing that ever happened. Now departure is imminent people are only starting to realise the benefits of EU membership.

Of course, like yourself there's still some who want out completely in the same sense I would wish to remain an active member of the EU.

Another thing they haven't considered, the current UK/EU Driving License allows travel throughout the area. Will drivers have to apply for a temporary license to drive outside the UK in addition to visas and other complications post Brexit? Something even I haven't considered until now.

Yes the EEC has become the EU but the EEA is something else, more like the old EEC in ways.

As to why the UK government won't consider that option in favour of a hard Brexit I don't know. It would create considerably reduced uncertainty and seems to work for Norway and other areas plus the similar arrangement for Switzerland.

If the government did opt for the EEA option the UK still gets to leave the EU. Perhaps this wasn't explained on the referendum paper, then neither was a complete departure and isolation from the rest of Europe.


----------



## KittenKong

Seeing some of you would prefer to see the UK negotiate deals with the US rather than the EU I thought I would share this.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ss-eu-single-market-american-chamber-commerce


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> No they aren't.
> Maybe in your world.
> The bill is simple it is to trigger Article 50, these amendments aren't for this bill. Last night's amendment shows how bitter the remainers are in the House of Lords. Parliament was told they will get a vote before the bill was commended to the House in the elected House of Commons and they will now be held accountable because this was announced. What the Lord's want to achieve is a veto to stop Brexit because of there EU pensions which will be cut or stopped because the UK is leaving. Also this amendment also ties the hands of the Government during the Negotiations as they would have to keep coming back to Parliament asking if this and that is ok. How I know all this is because I watched the whole debate in the House of Lords yesterday and they have several clauses in the amendment as well. The Lord's will be defeated next week.


In my world AND countless others. You should step outside your bubble.



KittenKong said:


> This comment from the Guardian site sums up May perfectly:
> 
> View attachment 302545


I agree!



Satori said:


> It's a cute cartoon but we both know it didn't really play out like that, right?
> 
> There was a clear and unambiguous referendum result on Jun 23rd. It was very close and what should have followed was a period of consolidation during which thinkers on both sides of the debate help our lawmakers to execute Brexit well, to avoid the pitfalls and unintended consequences that our government machinery is typically so poor at doing.
> 
> Instead, a mendacious and morally bankrupt loud minority from the remain side of the debate (later to be known as remoaners) took to their various keyboards and soapboxes to derail the democratic process and to vilify those who, in their majority, made an informed vote to leave. Alternatives to a real Brexit were proffered, all of which amounted to remaining. Those who voted to leave were called stupid deluded racists. Many who started this trouble were actually quite intelligent and would have been better employed helping the process of execution but they passive-aggressively pretended to be dumb so as to conceal their lack of any real argument. This allowed the genuinely stupid, who didn't understand the arguments at all, to swell their ranks - the blindfolded leading the blind. We've all seen it.
> 
> It was never going to end well. All that's happened is that many leavers have become more hardline and more entrenched in their views.* I know I have. I am not particularly political. I study potential black swans very closely in case their is a chance to make a quick buck but I don't really care too much about the outcomes.* Yet, I feel increasingly passionate about Brexit and it is at least partly because I want to see the remoaners squeal.
> 
> So, if you remoaners are feeling that this has become a civil war of words, increasingly nasty, dividing the country etc.... you are probably right. But you brought it on. Losers.


Very funny:Hilarious You remind me of a right wing Mark Steel - you could get paid for this satire (maybe not as much as you'd like lol) At least you've always been open & honest about only being interested in your own self interests

One word for that though - RUTHLESS.

Well, anyway, this is me! 












Dr Pepper said:


> Well I for one would rather be on the sunny beach below rather than stay on the precarious cliff top that is the undemocratic EU.


What a great idea. Lets 'Take Back Control' - & give it to an even more corrupt bunch of crooks. Geniusompus


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Noushka, I know this is a serious post but the moustache made me laugh out loud.
> 
> So appropriate!
> View attachment 302563


LOL I hadn't noticed that till you pointed it out. I suspect the moustache was quite deliberate, don't you  lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> In my world AND countless others. You should step outside your bubble.
> 
> Well, anyway, this is me!
> 
> View attachment 302562


Well I can't believe you and @KittenKong are still in denial that we are leaving the EU. You'll have to act quickly and move to the EU if you are staying in it because in 24 months the UK will be leaving the EU and Brexiting.

You'll be doing this in 24 months time









I don't live in a bubble but clearly you do because the conversation goes around in circles all the time this thread is proof.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well I can't believe you and @KittenKong are still in denial that we are leaving the EU. You'll have to act quickly and move to the EU if you are staying in it because in 24 months the UK will be leaving the EU and Brexiting.
> 
> *You'll be doing this in 24 months time*
> View attachment 302660
> 
> 
> I don't live in a bubble but clearly you do because the conversation goes around in circles all the time this thread is proof.


(so will you when we've left )

I have posted plenty of evidence. The consensual position of experts in all fields I've looked into is brexit is going to be a catastrophe. Already people are suffering & we haven't even left yet.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> (so will you  )
> 
> I have posted plenty of evidence. The consensual position of experts in all fields I've looked into is brexit is going to be a catastrophe. Already people are suffering & we haven't even left yet.


Hmmm experts like the IMF, Bank of England, OBR who have all got there predictions completely wrong so sorry for me not believing the so called experts who can't get much right. They are entitled to there opinions. The UK economy is the second largest (Germany is first) and is growing very well and has proven since 23rd June 2016 to be very robust. The statement came out yesterday in the Chancellor's budget. Employment figures up and Unemployment figures down in the UK the lowest unemployment figures since 2010 when Labour were in power who had large unemployment figures.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> As to why the UK government won't consider that option in favour of a hard Brexit I don't know. It would create considerably reduced uncertainty and seems to work for Norway and other areas plus the similar arrangement for Switzerland.


http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/immigration-and-justice/norway-and-switzerland/

"Switzerland and Norway have far higher levels of EU immigration than the UK as a proportion of their populations. If the UK had the same net EU immigration rate as Switzerland, it would mean nearly 400,000 more EU migrants a year."

"In a referendum in February 2014, the Swiss voted to introduce quotas on EU migrants from 2017. Such quotas would violate the terms of Switzerland's free movement treaty with the EU. In fact, the EU has so far refused to agree to Swiss quotas for EU migrants and has threatened to suspend other EU-Swiss bilateral agreements with the country if Switzerland unilaterally imposes quotas."

"Norway is also outside the EU, but is a member of the European Economic Area (EEA). As such, Norway must apply the same free movement rules as EU member states, but has no vote on the rules. The EEA Agreement with the EU does include 'safeguard measures' allowing the parties to take "appropriate measures" if serious "economic, societal or environmental difficulties of a sectorial or regional nature liable to persist are arising". In an extreme case, such measures may be used to limit EU migration - but could only be temporary."


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> The NHS has to also accept responsibility as well though for the financial mess it is in. As discussed before in this thread there is alot of problems in the NHS some of which are there own doings. It would be nice to see a cash injection into both the NHS and Social Care but the NHS have to also learn by there mistakes as well and sort them out.
> 
> I *am with holding any further comments until after the budget. Come back to me then*.


Here we go then.

Expert evaluations >>>

*Clive Peedell*‏@*cpeedell* 8h8 hours ago

So the Chancellor has given £300m to support #*NHS* STPs,
which will be used to make NHS savings of £22bn nationally! #*NHSCrisis*

The OBR forecast for economy hasn't taken into account the perfect storm engulfing
#*NHS* & wider public services. Flatline funding dangerous

*Alex Gates*‏@*dr_alex_gates* 17h17 hours ago

An extra £100m to 'place GPs in A&Es by next winter'
WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THESE GPs FROM?!!! #*Budget2017*
#*budgetbollocks*

Austerity, cuts to non-selective schools, completely ignoring NHS crisis.
The neediest in society will lose out. Hardly 'upbeat' #*Budget2017*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Here we go then.
> 
> Expert evaluations >>>
> 
> *Clive Peedell*‏@*cpeedell* 8h8 hours ago
> 
> So the Chancellor has given £300m to support #*NHS* STPs,
> which will be used to make NHS savings of £22bn nationally! #*NHSCrisis*
> 
> The OBR forecast for economy hasn't taken into account the perfect storm engulfing
> #*NHS* & wider public services. Flatline funding dangerous
> 
> *Alex Gates*‏@*dr_alex_gates* 17h17 hours ago
> 
> An extra £100m to 'place GPs in A&Es by next winter'
> WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THESE GPs FROM?!!! #*Budget2017*
> #*budgetbollocks*
> 
> Austerity, cuts to non-selective schools, completely ignoring NHS crisis.
> The neediest in society will lose out. Hardly 'upbeat' #*Budget2017*



Let's see. So far the so called experts have been terribly so terribly wrong.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> (so will you when we've left )


I won't be as well be out of the EU.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Hmmm experts like the IMF, Bank of England, OBR who have all got there predictions completely wrong so sorry for me not believing the so called experts who can't get much right. They are entitled to there opinions. The UK economy is the second largest (Germany is first) and is growing very well and has proven since 23rd June 2016 to be very robust. The statement came out yesterday in the Chancellor's budget. Employment figures up and Unemployment figures down in the UK the lowest unemployment figures since 2010 when Labour were in power who had large unemployment figures.


Experts across the board. Environmentalists, NHS experts, respected NGOs, campaigners for social justice. Predictions are just that - predictions. So of course they're not going to be 100% accurate, but the experts were bang on about one thing - brexit is going to be a disaster.

Just look at Cornwall, look at EU nationals, look at farming, the environment & so on.

£60bn - or about half the annual cost of the whole NHS - is what we're putting aside to meet the costs of Brexit . I know where I'd prefer the money to be spent..............


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> You should step outside your bubble.



LET ME OUT! LET ME OUT!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Let's see. So far they have been terribly so terribly wrong.


Why are they wrong? Counter your argument with evidence, please.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> LET ME OUT! LET ME OUT!


hahaaa :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> * brexit is going to be a disaster.*


For the so called experts yes because they will be proven wrong with there silly predictions.



> look at farming, fishermen


They wanted out and voted out. Buy British and support them.


> £60bn - or about half the annual cost of the whole NHS - is what we're putting aside to meet the costs of Brexit . I know where I'd prefer the money to be spent..............


Depends were he got the £60bn from.

Regarding the NHS I agree he could have pumped a bit more money into it from the foreign aid budget perhaps, the aid budget we give to nuclear capable countries who don't need it.

I didn't see Jeremy Corbyn offering any alternatives. He moaned and ranted in anger but offered no alternatives.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Why are they wrong? Counter your argument with evidence, please.


OBR, Bank of England, IMF, World Bank experts have all admitted they have been wrong so far and revised forecasts. The economists have even been wrong.

UK economy grew even though it was downgraded, it hit the previously forecasted annual growth of 2% before the referendum, the UK has the second largest and growing economy in Europe and is robust and growing. I will find more examples but I am waking up @noushka05 and still tired.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> They wanted out and voted out. Buy British and support them.


Both industries have been decimated by those with lower welfare standards from within the EU 

As soon as we had free trade our farming industry started to die 

Cheap meat, mass produced that have forced our farming industry to follow.......and now they cry about it and still want us in the EU


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> For the so called experts yes because they will be proven wrong with there silly predictions.
> 
> They wanted out and voted out. Buy British and support them.
> Depends were he got the £60bn from.
> 
> Regarding the NHS I agree he could have pumped a bit more money into it.
> 
> I didn't see Jeremy Corbyn offering any alternatives. He moaned and ranted in anger but offered no alternatives.


This distrust of experts is why the world is in such a mess. Climate change denier mentality.

Leave voters are less likely than Remain voters to trust ANY experts.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Both industries have been decimated by those with lower welfare standards from within the EU
> 
> As soon as we had free trade our farming industry started to die
> 
> Cheap meat, mass produced that have forced our farming industry to follow.......and now they cry about it and still want us in the EU


Unfortunately its looking as though it will be a race to the bottom for livestock welfare, pesticide regulations, food safety after brexit. So things are set to get much worse not better.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Stop bad-mouthing Britain! Treasury, Bank of England and IMF Brexit forecasts proved wrong*
*







*
THE Treasury, Bank of England and International Monetary Fund (IMF) are among the self-appointed anti-Brexit so-called economics experts who keep getting their forecasts WRONG.

Establishment institutions, as well as global investment banks, issued united and terrifying warnings of economic disaster if Britain opted out of the European Union (EU), in an effort to sway the public into voting to Remain.

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/ci...F-brexit-forecasts-wrong-UK-economy-GROWS/amp


----------



## stockwellcat.

George Osborne said a vote to leave the European Union would plunge us into recession; see an extra half a million people dumped on the dole; lead to wages falling and income tax increasing; and in time make each British family £4,300 worse off.

This nightmare scenario would result from the 'immediate and profound shock' of a vote to leave, said the former Chancellor when he was doing his best to scare the public witless with his Project Fear in the run-up to the referendum.

*Instead, Britain ended the year with the strongest economy among all the advanced nations with growth accelerating in the six months after the referendum. Our economy grew by 2.2 per cent last year - more than the US, Germany or Japan.*

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...REES-experts-wrong-impact-Brexit-economy.html


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> *Stop bad-mouthing Britain! Treasury, Bank of England and IMF Brexit forecasts proved wrong*
> *
> View attachment 302665
> *
> THE Treasury, Bank of England and International Monetary Fund (IMF) are among the self-appointed anti-Brexit so-called economics experts who keep getting their forecasts WRONG.
> 
> Establishment institutions, as well as global investment banks, issued united and terrifying warnings of economic disaster if Britain opted out of the European Union (EU), in an effort to sway the public into voting to Remain.
> 
> http://www.express.co.uk/finance/ci...F-brexit-forecasts-wrong-UK-economy-GROWS/amp


So because experts sometimes make predictions that aren't always 100% accurate - lets ignore the experts & put all our trust in those bastions of truth & honesty - the tory party lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

*.*


----------



## Happy Paws2

:Bored


----------



## stockwellcat.

*CHUMPS! Two out of three economic forecasters admit they got everything wrong*

*BRITAIN'S booming economy has humbled top economists, as it is revealed how epically wrong so-called experts were about the impact of the vote to leave the European Union (EU).*

But, apparently undeterred by the facts staring them in the face, the very same people are STILL warning that Brexit will still damage the country's long-term prospects.

About two-thirds of economists surveyed by the Financial Times at the start of 2016 warned a vote to leave the EU would damage the UK's short-term output.

The 'respected' experts predicted that uncertainty would block household spending and business investment, leading to a downturn. 

The Treasury, Bank of England and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) were also among the economic elite that participated in financial scare-mongering over a Leave vote, including a stock market and house price crash. 

*In fact, spending has surged since the referendum and key segments of the economy reached multi-year highs in expansion. *
*
Britain's stock markets have also reached record highs, while house prices continue to surge.*

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/750641/Brexit-bashing-economists-admit-they-got-it-wrong/amp


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> So because experts sometimes make predictions that aren't always 100% accurate - lets ignore the experts & put all our trust in those bastions of truth & honesty - the tory party lol


Oh you call them predictions now, but you keep saying they were facts, but now they are wrong they are predictions. Hmmm. Pointless debate me thinks.
*Beware: the experts are usually poor forecasters*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/03/beware-the-experts-are--usually-poor-forecasters/amp/


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> So because experts sometimes make predictions that aren't always 100% accurate - lets ignore the experts & put all our trust in those bastions of truth & honesty - the tory party lol


Absolutely. They can't even stick to their key manifesto pledges even the Telegraph reported on, let alone anything else. How people still trust this lot I really don't know.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...uses-back-national-insurance-rise-fury-grows/


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely. They can't even stick to their key manifesto pledges let alone anything else. How people still trust this lot I really don't know.....


What's the alternative?
Corbyn?


----------



## Bisbow

@stockwellcat 
I admire your posts very much, you hit the nail on the head but you are never going to convince those without the vision or guts to look to the future with hope

They only look into a big black hole and see nothing


----------



## stockwellcat.

Who is the alternative to the Conservatives? Labour. Well the Chancellor thinks the opposition leader (Jeremy Corbyn) is in a black hole and even Stephen Hawking has disowned him.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jeremy Corbyn slams wrong Chancellor over cuts:

*Labour slams the wrong chancellor on budget cuts*

The U.K.'s Labour Party has asked supporters to write to George Osborne urging him not to cut benefits for the disabled in Wednesday's budget, the Telegraph reported. But Osborne won't be giving the budget speech as he isn't chancellor - that would be Philip Hammond - and hasn't been since last summer.

In a petition on its website Labour called on supporters to "Stop the Tories' unfair cuts to those most in need" but mentioned Osborne instead of Hammond. Party leader Jeremy Corbyn tweeted a link to the incorrect petition Tuesday morning. It was later taken off the Labour website.

http://www.politico.eu/article/labour-slams-the-wrong-chancellor-on-budget-cuts/amp/









I am not laughing at the cuts I am laughing at how stupid Corbyn can be.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Fake news.


This seems to be the latest ''must have'' expression at the moment. Anything not deemed ''believable'' is branded ''fake news''. Like the trendy word ''populism'' which no-one used until quite recently.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> @stockwellcat
> I admire your posts very much, you hit the nail on the head but you are never going to convince those without the vision or guts to look to the future with hope
> 
> They only look into a big black hole and see nothing


Isolation from Europe and closer links with Trump's US? Are you surprised?

Still perhaps having reached p.323 we should look back at some of the earlier posts prior to the referendum.

This is one of my favourites:


----------



## stockwellcat.

You'll be glad to know @cheekyscrip @KittenKong @Goblin and @noushka05 the thorn in your side on here (me) is going to be taken out because as from tomorrow I won't be on here due to having to go back to my parents due to a family issues. I will be back at some point but not for the immediate foreseeable future. So you will have very little opposition for a while so I hope you enjoy my absence  It has been fun talking to you and debating with you on this thread.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> What's the alternative?
> Corbyn?


Well if Murdoch hadn't worked his usual magic in destroying Ed Miliband before he had a chance (though I would have preferred David) the UK wouldn't be looking at an unknown future.

If I had absolutely no choice to choose between May and Corbyn I would choose the latter any day as much as I despise him on his 3LW activities. At least the NHS will be safer in his hands.

Don't worry though, for as long as Corbyn remains Labour leader he won't be getting my vote. As for May I'd rather jump off a cliff than to vote for her!



stockwellcat said:


> Who? Labour. Well the Chancellor thinks the opposition leader (Jeremy Corbyn) is in a black hole and even Stephen Hawking has disowned him.


I can't think of anyone I respect more than Stephen Hawking. He was spot on.



stockwellcat said:


> You'll be glad to know @cheekyscrip @KittenKong @Goblin and @noushka05 the thorn in your side on here (me) is going to be taken out because as from tomorrow I won't be on here due to having to go back to my parents due to a family issues. I will be back at some point but not for the immediate foreseeable future. So you will have very little opposition for a while so I hope you enjoy my absence  It has been fun talking to you and debating with you on this thread.


Yes, I read about this. Hope everything will be OK and you'll be in our thoughts.

Take care, hope to hear from you soon.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> I like the kind of democracy that has been voted in by a countries population. We've never been given the vote to join the EU. Never. It's been railroaded into our way of life, and that's undemocratic. Thankfully we've now got a out.


Very nice, I'm sure, but not an answer to the question I asked. Which probably indicates what the answer would have to be.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Oh you call them predictions now, but you keep saying they were facts, but now they are wrong they are predictions. Hmmm. Pointless debate me thinks.


You love to point out the experts have been wrong. Fine. Still can't provide reasoning based in facts for Brexit other than spin which has been shown to be false. Normally you resort to "we won the referendum and are leaving" as your argument.

Simple points:

What has BREXIT done to assist in this growth.. answer nowt.
How much of this growth is driven by debt?

How has this affected the average person.. well, paying more across the board. In otherwords, the average person hasn't seen growth and is worse of now which can be directly attributed to the referendum.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You love to point out the experts have been wrong. Fine. Still can't provide reasoning based in facts for Brexit other than spin which has been shown to be false. Normally you resort to "we won the referendum and are leaving" as your argument.
> 
> Simple points:
> 
> What has BREXIT done to assist in this growth.. answer nowt.
> How much of this growth is driven by debt?
> 
> How has this affected the average person.. well, paying more across the board. In otherwords, the average person hasn't seen growth and is worse of now which can be directly attributed to the referendum.


 I have explained what facts and predictions are before in this thread but I will do it again just incase you didn't understand the difference.

The facts are playing out in front of you as each day passes and things happen. Facts cannot be predicted for future events as those events have not happened yet and as you have seen those so called facts then get played down and the experts made to look stupid. There is no way a so called experts can claim he or she can predict future events unless they have a time machine. In history so called experts have been WRONG so many times people lost trust in them. They have been wrong so far regarding the vote to leave I can't say Brexit as Brexit won't happen for another two years yet. All there current predictions are on the vote to leave nothing else. They are entitled to there opinion but that is all it is. They were remainers after all these so called experts, so it's no wonder there outlook is bleak as they want Brexit to fail and this country to suffer like most of the other remainers.

Fact: There are two amendments to be voted down next week
Not A Fact: The UK has entered a reseccesion because of the vote to leave.

See the difference between a fact and prediction.

You'll have to excuse me as I am getting myself ready for tomorrow as I am leaving London early but I'd thought I'd reply to you as you enjoy my replies


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> You love to point out the experts have been wrong. Fine. Still can't provide reasoning based in facts for Brexit other than spin which has been shown to be false. Normally you resort to "we won the referendum and are leaving" as your argument.
> 
> Simple points:
> 
> What has BREXIT done to assist in this growth.. answer nowt.
> How much of this growth is driven by debt?
> 
> How has this affected the average person.. well, paying more across the board. In otherwords, the average person hasn't seen growth and is worse of now which can be directly attributed to the referendum.


What would staying in have done to assist growth....answer nowt

How much of this growth is driven by debt? Well apparently, in December 2015 the recovery was driven by debt, since January this year, that has started to change

How has this affected the average person.. well, paying more across the board. In otherwords, the average person hasn't seen growth and is *worse of now which can be directly attributed to the referendum....*
Poppycock. complete and utter fabrication, we are worse off because of the increase in fuel costs


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> What would staying in have done to assist growth....answer nowt


We are still in the single market for a start, access to over 60 trade deals 



> How has this affected the average person.. well, paying more across the board. In otherwords, the average person hasn't seen growth and is *worse of now which can be directly attributed to the referendum....*
> Poppycock. complete and utter fabrication, we are worse off because of the increase in fuel costs


Really so the exchange rate change is not related to the referendum? Rising inflation doesn't exist.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> We are still in the single market for a start, acces to over 60 trade deals
> 
> Really so the exchange rate change is not related to the referendum? Rising inflation doesn't exist.


Inflation is rising on the Continent as well not just in the UK, it's nothing to do with Brexit as Brexit hasn't happened yet. Inflation has not been rising much for two years so it's no wonder it has started to rise again but it is still below 2% in the UK which is below the Governments target.

*"UK inflation* at 1% as price of clothes and fuel rises. Rising prices for clothes, hotel rooms and petrol *have *led to the highest rate of *inflation* in nearly two years, official figures show.*Inflation* rose to 1.0% in September, up from 0.6% in August, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37688593

There is no proof that the fall in the pound has anything to do with inflation rising according to the ONS.

*UK inflation hits two-year high of 1.6%*

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/17/uk-inflation-hits-two-year-high


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> There is no proof that the fall in the pound has anything to do with inflation rising according to the ONS.


Government states (they own ONS) no proof that brexit has nothing to do with inflation, that prices going up. So define proof. UK imports goods (47% of food for example). Exchange rate means those imports cost more. Are companies going to simply accept those losses or are they going to pass them on to customers?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I have explained what facts and predictions are before in this thread but I will do it again just in case you didn't understand the difference.
> ...
> 
> *Facts cannot be predicted for future events*
> ...
> 
> *Fact*: There are two amendments to be voted down *next week*


Er ...


----------



## cheekyscrip

So taxes slammed on expats and their pensions have nothing to do with Hammond, Brexit, May, referendum?

Pension - money you earned, tax already.
If you bought gold instead you would able to sell it and spend cash as you please?
That is how govt scams those who have savings.

Fuel prices are in dollars...if post referendum pound lost about 20% of the value?
Sorry Britain cannot dictate exchange rates .

We import more than export and value of pound directly hits import prices.

Companies cannot cut profits, because their shares will hit rock bottom.
So costs of products, costs of production must be passed on customers.

Money losing value, prices up, inflation.
Just as you were warned, but oh...it would be good...because we are British.

Today after new taxes hundreds will be out of work in financial sector.

Channel Islands, Gibraltar...lots of British people affected.

Very much take from Peter to give Paul.

All to cover Brexit black hole.
Benefit cuts. Self employed tax hike. 

More - information send as outline of new regulations was misleading, no time to prepare for changes given.
Just shut down.


----------



## rona

Petrol is down 2p a litre in a week


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Cheap meat, mass produced that have forced our farming industry to follow.......and now they cry about it and still want us in the EU


The thing I find incredible is the "excitement" of New Zealand lamb. Why for heaven's sake? How is their lamb any different from that produced in the UK. Not forgetting the huge costs to export it to the UK of course.

Surely they should be supporting locally produced lamb? British Lamb for British people???


----------



## 1290423

Nice to see life still goes on


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> So taxes slammed on expats and their pensions have nothing to do with Hammond, Brexit, May, referendum?
> 
> Pension - money you earned, tax already.
> If you bought gold instead you would able to sell it and spend cash as you please?
> That is how govt scams those who have savings.
> 
> Fuel prices are in dollars...if post referendum pound lost about 20% of the value?
> Sorry Britain cannot dictate exchange rates .
> 
> We import more than export and value of pound directly hits import prices.
> 
> Companies cannot cut profits, because their shares will hit rock bottom.
> So costs of products, costs of production must be passed on customers.
> 
> Money losing value, prices up, inflation.
> Just as you were warned, but oh...it would be good...because we are British.
> 
> Today after new taxes hundreds will be out of work in financial sector.
> 
> Channel Islands, Gibraltar...lots of British people affected.
> 
> Very much take from Peter to give Paul.
> 
> All to cover Brexit black hole.
> Benefit cuts. Self employed tax hike.
> 
> More - information send as outline of new regulations was misleading, no time to prepare for changes given.
> Just shut down.


We've had Income tax. Council tax, the Poll tax, tax on tobacco, alcohol, fuel, pasties, sweets, food (a possible in the future), you name it.

Now we have ....Roll on the drums...... THE BREXIT TAX !


----------



## KittenKong

Just a reminder for anyone interested:


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> We've had Income tax. Council tax, the Poll tax, tax on tobacco, alcohol, fuel, pasties, sweets, food (a possible in the future), you name it.
> 
> Now we have ....Roll on the drums...... THE BREXIT TAX !


As a result of those new taxes Gibraltar and Channel Islands lost lots of business. As from this midnight.
That means loss of hundreds of jobs those tiny places cannot absorb. As majority of those are British...means hundreds of unemployed.
Thousands maybe, thinking about cleaners, coffee shops etc...secondary victims.

We are basically funding Brexit.

For many relocation to UK would be extremely complicated if to consider children, elderly or vulnerable family members etc...


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Another thing they haven't considered, the current UK/EU Driving License allows travel throughout the area. Will drivers have to apply for a temporary license to drive outside the UK in addition to visas and other complications post Brexit? Something even I haven't considered until now.


I asked this question on the Sabre Roads site on their, "Brexit- what now?" thread and got these responses:


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Happy Paws2

I don't hold out much hope for the UK either.


----------



## KittenKong

I would love to know where you get this propaganda from HM, yes, you said you're not prepared to reveal your sources when I asked you earlier which of course is your right. 

I think we can come to our own conclusions therefore.

Why the obsession with the, "Beginning of the end of the EU"? Surely the EU can manage quite well without England and Wales thank you.

Wilders and Le Penn haven't won yet, in the unlikely event that they'll do.


----------



## Goblin

Well done Honey's Mum for showing the childish mentality of some of the leave crowd. "We can still gloat for making life worse for everyone rather than simply ourselves". Of course that's dependent on the EU actually failing. Interesting how much hate you display for your fellow europeans. Anyone would thing you are jealous of them or something.

Or is it deep down you cannot justify leaving but if the EU stopped it would validate your poor decision?


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> I would love to know where you get this propaganda from HM, yes, you said you're not prepared to reveal your sources when I asked you earlier which of course is your right.


I don't think it really matters Kitten Kong where it came from, it's really meant for the Leavers, and it is going to happen.
In case you didn't watch David davis on the Andrew Marr show this morning.

David Davis On Andrew Marr Show - 12th March 2017! Full! - YouTube



Goblin said:


> Well done Honey's Mum for showing the childish mentality of some of the leave crowd.


Put it down to my sense of humor Goblin ,which you obviously don't have .



Goblin said:


> your poor decision?


I don't consider voting to leave a poor decision, I have never said that all you who voted remain have made a poor decision. So please don't suggest that I have made one. I voted for what I believe we should do, the same as you and all the othesr who voted did. 
Only time will tell who was right and who was wrong.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Put it down to my sense of humor Goblin ,which you obviously don't have .


Destruction of the future wellbeing of future generations is hardly a laughing matter is it especially when it comes down to my child's future which is determined by what we decide now.


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> when it comes down to my child's future which is determined by what we decide now.


I'm sorry, but no one can say what their childrens future will be like when nothing has happened yet. No one knows what it will be like, it's all just speculation at the moment, and even the so called experts on the remain side have got that wrong.
Just for the record I also have two children.



Goblin said:


> hardly a laughing matter


I don't recall saying it was a laughing matter, I said I have a sense of humor, which is totally different.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> I'm sorry, but no one can say what their childrens future will be like when nothing has happened yet. No one knows what it will be like, it's all just speculation at the moment, and even the so called experts on the remain side have got that wrong.


Well you can listen to politicians like David Davis who are not preparing anyone for what is going to happen or you can listen to those who are responsible for things like trade deals and have experience for how they work along with others specialising in the legal position with things like the WTO. Would you trust a politician or a surgeon to operate on you because your argument suggests you would go with the politician? We are not talking predictions, we are talking about legal processes and how things work in reality.

The very fact those in power are afraid of letting parliament decide on confirming the final result says so much about their confidence of a good deal considering there is no effective opposition.


----------



## noushka05

Saw this tweet to Guy Verhofstadt from someone who regrets voting leave. I feel very sorry for them. In a democracy people should be allowed to change their minds - or it isn't a democracy. We weren't properly informed before the referendum. The whole leave campaign was nothing but a pack of lies.

@*GuyVerhofstadt* 2. I voted leave based on misinformation lack of detail & lies. I & many others deeply regret it & never felt so European.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


>


Exciting! We might regain top spot from
the US as Most Self-Destructive Country
as soon as next week!









Stolen from David Schneider.


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> Saw this tweet to Guy Verhofstadt from someone who regrets voting leave. I feel very sorry for them. In a democracy people should be allowed to change their minds - or it isn't a democracy. We weren't properly informed before the referendum. *The whole leave campaign was nothing but a pack of lies.
> 
> @GuyVerhofstadt 2. I voted leave based on misinformation lack of detail & lies. I & many others deeply regret it & never felt so European.*


I think many people vote like that, we just can't go round thinking that the EU was ruling us, we didn't have to do everything they said, our govenment was daft enough to choose to do that, other countries didn't. We may gain a lot but we will loose a lot more. I think it will be a sad day when TM triggers article 50 but we have to live it the mistakes that some have made for us, lets hope she gets it right.


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> I think many people vote like that, we just can't go round thinking that the EU was ruling us, we didn't have to do everything they said, our govenment was daft enough to choose to do that, other countries didn't. We may gain a lot but we will loose a lot more. I think it will be a sad day when TM triggers article 50 but we have to live it the mistakes that some have made for us, lets hope she gets it right.


I agree. This is why the hard brexit camp are so desperate to trigger article 50 asap - because they know it too, they fear people will wake up to the reality.

The only people who will gain anything at all from brexit are the very wealthy & big business. The rest of us are going to suffer big time.


----------



## cheekyscrip

That is the point. EU is not responsible for our benefit system. Our discrepancies between North and South.
Number of illegal immigrants. Number of Commonwealth immigrants.
NHS. Education.Housing. Taxes.

Yesterday in Sunday Times TM accused Hammond that he did NOT inform cabinet ministers that new tax in self-employed breaches the Tory manifesto.

Erm...or she and her cabinet ministers are illiterate morons or she lies!!!!
Not a minor detail of manifesto either
So we are going to be out?

With no knowledge we we will end?
For what club we swap?

But with the knowledge that for foreseeable future we will pay for it.

Why are we so dumb and bent on self destruction

To cut your nose to spite your face never fitted better.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/immigration-and-justice/norway-and-switzerland/
> 
> "Switzerland and Norway have far higher levels of EU immigration than the UK as a proportion of their populations. If the UK had the same net EU immigration rate as Switzerland, it would mean nearly 400,000 more EU migrants a year."
> 
> "In a referendum in February 2014, the Swiss voted to introduce quotas on EU migrants from 2017. Such quotas would violate the terms of Switzerland's free movement treaty with the EU. In fact, the EU has so far refused to agree to Swiss quotas for EU migrants and has threatened to suspend other EU-Swiss bilateral agreements with the country if Switzerland unilaterally imposes quotas."
> 
> "Norway is also outside the EU, but is a member of the European Economic Area (EEA). As such, Norway must apply the same free movement rules as EU member states, but has no vote on the rules. The EEA Agreement with the EU does include 'safeguard measures' allowing the parties to take "appropriate measures" if serious "economic, societal or environmental difficulties of a sectorial or regional nature liable to persist are arising". In an extreme case, such measures may be used to limit EU migration - but could only be temporary."


We already had 'control of our borders'. And apparently EU members had the right to restrict A8 immigration for 7 years and that UK *chose* not to.

........................................


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> For the so called experts yes because they will be proven wrong with there silly predictions.
> 
> They wanted out and voted out. Buy British and support them.
> Depends were he got the £60bn from.
> 
> Regarding the NHS I agree he could have pumped a bit more money into it from the foreign aid budget perhaps, the aid budget we give to nuclear capable countries who don't need it.
> 
> I didn't see Jeremy Corbyn offering any alternatives. He moaned and ranted in anger but offered no alternatives.


You have simple evaded my question. You said these Doctors are wrong. Instead of obfuscating, can you provide any evidence to counter what they say?

*Clive Peedell*‏@*cpeedell* 8h8 hours ago
So the Chancellor has given £300m to support #*NHS* STPs,
which will be used to make NHS savings of £22bn nationally! #*NHSCrisis*
T
he OBR forecast for economy hasn't taken into account the perfect storm engulfing
#*NHS* & wider public services. Flatline funding dangerous

*Alex Gates*‏@*dr_alex_gates* 17h17 hours ago
An extra £100m to 'place GPs in A&Es by next winter'
WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THESE GPs FROM?!!! #*Budget2017*
#*budgetbollocks*

Corbyn does offer alternatives actually, heres a few. These seem pretty sensible & mainstream to me.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> The whole leave campaign was nothing but a pack of lies.


Remain camp's four big EU lies, Brexit WON'T spark trade war say Germans | Daily Mail Online

Remain campaign peddles outright lies at our expense | Express Comment | Comment | Express.co.uk

Do you think the Remain campaign or the Leave campaign has told the most lies? - What UK Thinks: EU

Are politicians from the Remain campaign mostly telling truth or lies? - What UK Thinks: EU


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> @stockwellcat
> I admire your posts very much, you hit the nail on the head but you are never going to convince those without the vision or guts to look to the future with hope
> 
> They only look into a big black hole and see nothing


Without a plan, without a good deal - wishful thinking wont save us.

Can I ask why you're so confident we'll be better off outside the EU? Where are you getting your information?


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Saw this tweet to Guy Verhofstadt from someone who regrets voting leave. I feel very sorry for them. In a democracy people should be allowed to change their minds - or it isn't a democracy. We weren't properly informed before the referendum. The whole leave campaign was nothing but a pack of lies.
> 
> @*GuyVerhofstadt* 2. I voted leave based on misinformation lack of detail & lies. I & many others deeply regret it & never felt so European.


Sounds genuine.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-on-brexit-vote-reminds-me-of-the-third-reich


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Remain camp's four big EU lies, Brexit WON'T spark trade war say Germans | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Remain campaign peddles outright lies at our expense | Express Comment | Comment | Express.co.uk
> 
> Do you think the Remain campaign or the Leave campaign has told the most lies? - What UK Thinks: EU
> 
> Are politicians from the Remain campaign mostly telling truth or lies? - What UK Thinks: EU


Have you ever considered why the Mail, the Express & the Sun are so rabidly anti- EU @Honeys mum ?



Satori said:


> Sounds genuine.


Well its certainly more believable than anything pro brexit I've ever seen:Hilarious

Their account looks genuine enough & plenty are having regrets so its certainly credible they've have a had a change of heart.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Remain camp's four big EU lies, Brexit WON'T spark trade war say Germans | Daily Mail Online


Think the mail piece is hillarious, this from a media outlet which has been restricted from being used as a source for wiki due to inaccurancies. Not a shock, In fact looking at the first article, you can pull it apart. Here's one line showing proof:

"Mr Portes has said the number of people kicked out under the six-month rule has been 'zero'.".

So wait.. the UK government has not kicked anyone out so that obviously means we can't. Well no, it simply means the UK government has not kicked anyone out. Other EU countries have, as it's allowed. Once more, this means the Government, not the EU is responsible. Yet somehow this is all the EU's fault according to the leave campaign, let's give the government less accountability.

There's a fundamental difference between the leave and remain campaigns. Remain used the worst expectations and predictions as a basis. Leave simply made things up to exploit feelings of xenophobia and nationalism. Neither campaign covered themselves with glory but then, it's a fault of the political system now. It was all about spin and negative campaigning. What the population needed to make an informed choice wasn't spin but the facts. Facts people were denied and facts the UK government is continuing to hide as it serves their own political ambitions.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...-working-on-plan-for-united-ireland-1.3007587


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Saw this tweet to Guy Verhofstadt from someone who regrets voting leave. I feel very sorry for them. In a democracy people should be allowed to change their minds - or it isn't a democracy. We weren't properly informed before the referendum. The whole leave campaign was nothing but a pack of lies.
> 
> @*GuyVerhofstadt* 2. I voted leave based on misinformation lack of detail & lies. I & many others deeply regret it & never felt so European.


If one is old enough to vote, one is old enough to make an_ informed _decision surely; not just believe whatever the spin is. And if people can't be bothered to get off their arses and vote, or vote for Brexit ''for a laugh'', or vote for the ''side'' which appears to be winning, then it's their own tough luck. There was no doubt misinformation and lies from both ''sides''...there always is in politics. It is up to the voter to trawl thro' it. Otherwise, withhold your vote. ''People should be allowed to change their minds''..? How many times I wonder?


----------



## Calvine

@Goblin:
Is Wiki reliable?
Because *Wikipedia* can not be considered a *reliable* source, the use of *Wikipedia* is not accepted in many schools and universities in writing a formal paper, and some educational institutions have banned it as a primary source while others have limited its use to only a pointer to external sources.

Wikipedia is hardly a font of knowledge itself. Daily Mail, maligned by many, was apparently very critical of it.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Have you ever considered why the Mail, the Express & the Sun are so rabidly anti- EU @Honeys mum ?


I have no need to Noush, reason being, as I have qouted many times before. I didn't decide which way to vote because of what the newsapers said, or in fact anyone else either. I made up my own mind and will not be changing it, whatever happens.
Just for the record, I don't read the Sun, wouldn't have that aper in my house, to my knowledge i have never qouted anything that came from the Sun.We only have the Express because my OH likes it for the sport.



Calvine said:


> . There was no doubt misinformation and lies from both ''sides''...there always is in politics. It is up to the voter to trawl thro' it. Otherwise, withhold your vote


Totally agree with you on that Calvine.


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> @Goblin:
> Is Wiki reliable?


Far from it but at least it insists on references so you can follow sources unlike the Mail's version of unsupported "facts". Are you trying to defend Daily Mail as a source, if so, it's a losing proposition.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> If one is old enough to vote, one is old enough to make an_ informed _decision surely; not just believe whatever the spin is. And if people can't be bothered to get off their arses and vote, or vote for Brexit ''for a laugh'', or vote for the ''side'' which appears to be winning, then it's their own tough luck. There was no doubt misinformation and lies from both ''sides''...there always is in politics. It is up to the voter to trawl thro' it. Otherwise, withhold your vote. ''People should be allowed to change their minds''..? How many times I wonder?


Fair comments. I questioned Tory voters objecting to the Poll Tax which I found bizarre as that was clearly in their manifesto, so they must've known surely?

In a supposed democracy people are allowed to change their minds which is why they have General Elections.

You could use that argument to say people weren't given a choice after 1975. Fair point but Labour under Micheal Foot proposed a withdrawal from the EEC where Thatcher didn't!

For them to say people can't change their minds is like a democratically elected dictator destroying any opposition (sounds familiar), or holding "elections" that demand, "Vote for me or else" we've seen in some other countries.


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> If one is old enough to vote, one is old enough to make an_ informed _decision surely; not just believe whatever the spin is.


Proof that isn't the case is in this thread. One of the two opposing viewpoints is wrong 

Of course you can also look at the reasons some people voted as they did and their "informed decision" process: https://extranewsfeed.com/50-dumb-****-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu-66a40c72c1da#.vwrggoscp

You could also remember the google statistics after the referendum which showed many people only started to look up what the EU was after the referendum. We live in a real world, not one which should exist where yes, people make informed decisions for such an important thing.



> There was no doubt misinformation and lies from both ''sides''...there always is in politics. It is up to the voter to trawl thro' it. Otherwise, withhold your vote. ''People should be allowed to change their minds''..? How many times I wonder?


Democratically, people normally have the opportunity to change their minds at every general election. Shouldn't the people have a say when the situation and impact of leaving is clearer? Isn't letting people have a say part of democracy?


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> Are you trying to defend Daily Mail as a source


No more than I would defend Wiki.


----------



## Goblin

Nobody has tried to defend wiki though unlike the DM


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Of course you can also look at the reasons some people voted as they did and their "informed decision" process: https://extranewsfeed.com/50-dumb-****-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu-66a40c72c1da#.vwrggoscp


No surprise to me at all. They've been drip fed anti European propaganda for nearly 40 years from the time the gutter press accused the Common Market of trying to end doorstep milk deliveries.

Such deliveries,( coal too which is still quite common in this semi rural location), are still around though obviously not to the extent it used to be, as supermarkets have taken over.

Many of these supermarkets also offer on line and home deliveries too. I call that progress and moving with the times.

100W bulbs were never banned outright. "Rough service" types are available in most DIY places which are actually better than the standard ones and are fully compatible with the standard bayonet fixing. The one in our bedroom is still going strong after four years.









Saw this on another forum recently. Says it all really....


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> Nobody has tried to defend wiki though unlike the DM


Really? You yourself have.

But here you maintain that Wikipedia won't use the Daily Mail (presumably because they think they are superior to them). I think it's ''make your mind up time''. You are suggesting that Wikipedia only publish real and accurate facts are you not? And that DM publishes any old crap.


Goblin said:


> Think the mail piece is hillarious, this from a media outlet which has been restricted from being used as a source for wiki due to inaccurancies.


----------



## kimthecat

*Larry the Cat*‏@*Number10cat*  49m49 minutes ago


Nicola Sturgeon 2013: Referendum is a once in a lifetime opportunity for Scotland Nicola Sturgeon .

2017: I meant the lifetime of a guinea pig.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_speech_scotland_s_referendum?mc_cid=b05e3364f5&mc_eid=6cdf3c87b8


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> Really? You yourself have.


Really, where. I used the wiki as an example where despite it's status it will not allow the the DM as source reference material. The wiki is made up of anybody inputting information so by it's nature it will not be 100% factual. They do however insist on sources to be listed and make some effort in an attempt to provide correct information. Major difference don't you think.



> But here you maintain that Wikipedia won't use the Daily Mail (presumably because they think they are superior to them). I think it's ''make your mind up time''. You are suggesting that Wikipedia only publish real and accurate facts are you not? And that DM publishes any old crap.


Ah so you are trying to defend the DM. Good luck.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> https://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_speech_scotland_s_referendum?mc_cid=b05e3364f5&mc_eid=6cdf3c87b8


Is she stupid? Why would she want a referendum before we've left the EU and we all know how the land lies? Even if we leave with no trade deals whatsoever how is Scotland, all on it's own, going to secure better deals anywhere in the world, let alone the EU?

Basically they will be voting to be out of the EU either on their own or as part of the UK. What they won't be voting for is remain in EU or it's single market.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> I voted for what I believe we should do, the same as you and all the othesr who voted did.
> *Only time will tell who was right and who was wrong.*


How will you tell if you were right? Against what alternate future will you judge the one that awaits us?


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Is she stupid? Why would she want a referendum before we've left the EU and we all know how the land lies? Even if we leave with no trade deals whatsoever how is Scotland, all on it's own, going to secure better deals anywhere in the world, let alone the EU?


Well this isn't really about brexit is it. Interesting though, May can try to block it but then the Scottish government could just hold an advisory referendum and then endlessly claim "democracy prevented". This when "will of the people" is the calling cry May is trying to justify her stance with when she has no real mandate.

As far as knowing where the land lies, with May blocking anyone else having any other say on the final decision, and knowing what to expect in reality, may as well start things now as opposed when it's too late to do anything separate.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Proof that isn't the case is in this thread. One of the two opposing viewpoints is wrong


That isn't so...........


----------



## Satori

Dr Pepper said:


> Is she stupid?


No. Far from it. But her supporters are.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> Ah so you are trying to defend the DM. Good luck.


And good luck to you too, you should try not to contradict yourself. I am not ''defending'' DM; why would I...are they in danger? From whom? What a strange comment.


----------



## Honeys mum

Parliamentlive.tv - House of Commons


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> *Larry the Cat*‏@*Number10cat*  49m49 minutes ago
> Nicola Sturgeon 2013: Referendum is a once in a lifetime opportunity for Scotland Nicola Sturgeon .
> 
> 2017: I meant the lifetime of a guinea pig.


I sorta got an inkling that calling another referendum is a tad bit personal inclining to what wee cranky sturgeon wants.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Maybe Scots should have right to have as many referendums as they please?


Maybe they should have the sane rights as UK and vote as they feel?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> As far as knowing where the land lies, with May blocking anyone else having any other say on the final decision, and knowing what to expect in reality, may as well start things now as opposed when it's too late to do anything separate.


The point is what if the Scottish vote to leave the UK in 2018 and then in 2019 a cracking trade deal is agreed for the UK. Suddenly the Scottish are out of everything having to try to negotiate deals of their own. I just can't see any positives for the Scots to leave before, fair enough if we get no trade deals, or whatever, then hold a referendum.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> The point is what if the Scottish vote to leave the UK in 2018 and then in 2019 a cracking trade deal is agreed for the UK. Suddenly the Scottish are out of everything having to try to negotiate deals of their own. I just can't see any positives for the Scots to leave before, fair enough if we get no trade deals, or whatever, then hold a referendum.


I agree that it seems a stupid thing to do. Then again with the resentment of unfairness it's a great opportunity to push for independence even if long term it is destructive. It's not the politicians who will suffer long term. They only have to win one vote after which they can state "will of the people". In fact the situation in a lot of ways is similar to brexit. It's not, after all simply independence which people will end up voting for regardless of what is on the ballot paper but how people simply feel on the day.

It's also a great opportunity for scotland to push for more power threatening the UK while it is weak. UK negotiating power, low enough already will take another hit when it comes to anything like trade deals. This could simply be blackmail unless the government concedes things like additional power to the the scottish parliament. Does May deny democracy and take a substantial hit to PR and make it even more obvious she is not open to the idea of letting the people decide things?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Parliament have rejected both amendments:
*Amendent to protect the rights of EU nationals living in the UK 335 to 287*

*Amendment to give Parliament a 'meaningful vote' on the Brexit deal 331 to 286*

Now it's the leaping Lord's turn:

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/9bcdfee1-985b-40c3-8038-1ba1bc237127

9pm is when the Lord's are due to vote again. Let's see what happens.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Lord's are accepting that Parliament have rejected these amendments even though some of them are against this, they are debating to push the bill through for Royal Assent. They agree that Article 50 should be triggered as soon as possible. The vote at or around 9pm will be interesting.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Well this isn't really about brexit is it. Interesting though, May can try to block it but then the Scottish government could just hold an advisory referendum and then endlessly claim "democracy prevented". This when "will of the people" is the calling cry May is trying to justify her stance with when she has no real mandate.
> 
> As far as knowing where the land lies, with May blocking anyone else having any other say on the final decision, and knowing what to expect in reality, may as well start things now as opposed when it's too late to do anything separate.


May is either behaving like a dictator or deliberately provoking Sturgeon to attempt another referendum, or she's so dissolutional like many hardened Brexiteers are, to believe the entire UK will rejoice in a flag waving patriotic joy once Brexit is over.

I fail to understand the opposition to it, as the people of Scotland could decide they consider remaining in the UK under full Westminster control preferable to remaining in the single market and having a democratically elected first minister.

Looks as if May is attempting to exercise her authority over the entire UK (her little empire if you like), which will not go down well especially in NI which could well hold its own reunification referendum in the near future.

Are they really that frightened Scotland could vote for independence this time?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Amendment A1 on guaranteeing EU Citizens rights has been rejected in the House of Lords 274 to 135.

They are now debating and voting on Amendment B1 on enshrining in law that both houses of Parliament get a vote on the final Brexit deal thus tying the Governments hands in the Negotiations with the EU. It's clause 4 of this amendment that ties the Governments hands that if they do not get a deal they have to go back to the EU and ask for a deal. This vote has been assured already by the Government meaning the House of Commons can hold the Government to account on this.

The debate has just started in the House of Lords. If this gets rejected the Article 50 bill will go straight for Royal Assent and made law, if not it ping pongs between both houses all night until the Lord's back down.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Looks as if May is attempting to exercise her authority over the entire UK (her little empire if you like), which will not go down well especially in NI which could well hold its own reunification referendum in the near future.
> 
> Are they really that frightened Scotland could vote for independence this time?


Northern Ireland does not have a power sharing Government yet. They may well be under direct rule from Westminster in two weeks time if this is not sorted by DUP and Sinn Fein. So the border poll (Referendum to reunite Ireland) won't happen if there is no power sharing Government in power in Northern Ireland.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...er-scottish-vote-theresa-mays-homemade-crisis


----------



## stockwellcat.

Lord's reject Amendment B1 which reintroduces a veto/meaningful vote for Parliament on outcome of Brexit Negotiations. The Article 50 bill has now cleared both houses and is going for Royal Assent to be made law with no Amendments. (Lords voted 118 for the Amendment to 274 against the Amendment).

Theresa May can now trigger Article 50 once Royal Assent is granted tomorrow.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Honeys mum

Lords pass landmark Brexit bill - BBC News


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Maybe Scots should have right to have as many referendums as they please?
> 
> Maybe they should have the sane rights as UK and vote as they feel?


Maybe we should ask those paying tax who forked out over 15 million for the last one if they mind paying again


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> The point is what if the Scottish vote to leave the UK in 2018 and then in 2019 a cracking trade deal is agreed for the UK. Suddenly the Scottish are out of everything having to try to negotiate deals of their own. I just can't see any positives for the Scots to leave before, fair enough if we get no trade deals, or whatever, then hold a referendum.


Totally agree


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong if you really think indyref2 is going to actually happen you'd have to think again.
1) Scotland has to pass an article 30 notification bill in the Scottish Parliament at Holyrood.
2) The House of Commons in Westminster have to agree to article 30
3) The House of Commons in Westminster have to vote on whether or not to allow a indyref2
4) Lastly the House of Lords in Westminster have to agree on an Indyref2.
With out the above agreements it can't go ahead.


----------



## 1290423

I for see a worldwide shortage of bricks myself


----------



## KittenKong

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/new...cottish-independence-referendum-35526368.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...er-scottish-vote-theresa-mays-homemade-crisis
> 
> View attachment 303104
> View attachment 303107


Scotland will still be in the UK next year and the year after and the year after that, you really honestly think Parliament in the UK will allow them to have there Referendum. 65% of people in the UK say no to a second Scottish Referendum, 30% say yes and only 5% said don't know.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/new...cottish-independence-referendum-35526368.html
> 
> View attachment 303112
> View attachment 303113


Yes but Sin Fein can demand what they want they aren't in power yet. DUP won the elections by one seat not Sinn Fein. Sin Fein wants to reunite Ireland DUP want to remain in UK. Both parties are opposites and have to find a compromise to have a power sharing Government, it won't work as they only have 13 days left to form a Government. Direct rule from Westminster in two weeks is looming and will mean the collapse of the Northern Ireland assembly and them being a devolved state as Westminster will rule them instead.

DUP responded by the way saying this'
DUP's Nigel Dodds branded it "opportunistic nationalism".

*Family circumstances have changed making me have to leave England back to Northern Ireland in the next few months...
*
I am watching what is going on in Northern Ireland with great interest because of what has happened in my family I have to make a choice of staying in England or moving back to Northern Ireland which my family want me to do with my dad. After what is going to happen soon with mum I will be leaving England. Circumstances have changed in my family which has made me and my dad look at where we need to be and that is in Northern Ireland after mum goes.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Scotland will still be in the UK next year and the year after and the year after that, you really honestly think Parliament in the UK will allow them to have there Referendum. 65% of people in the UK say no to a second Scottish Referendum, 30% say yes and only 5% said don't know.


If the scottish parliament states they are going to have a non-binding referendum (within it's rights) and it passes it has just as much mandate as May has to leave the EU. What's good for the goose...


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Northern Ireland does not have a power sharing Government yet. They may well be under direct rule from Westminster in two weeks time if this is not sorted by DUP and Sinn Fein. So the border poll (Referendum to reunite Ireland) won't happen if there is no power sharing Government in power in Northern Ireland.


That will work wonders for the NI peace process wouldn't it, especially now the pro union and Brexit DUP only have a one seat majority now.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Yes but Sin Fein can demand what they want they aren't in power yet. DUP won the elections by one seat not Sinn Fein. Sin Fein wants to reunite Ireland DUP want to remain in UK. Both parties are opposites and have to find a compromise to have a power sharing Government, it won't work as they only have 13 days left to form a Government. Direct rule from Westminster in two weeks is looming and will mean the collapse of the Northern Ireland assembly and them being a devolved state as Westminster will rule them instead.
> 
> DUP responded by the way saying this'
> DUP's Nigel Dodds branded it "opportunistic nationalism".
> 
> *Family circumstances have changed making me have to leave England back to Northern Ireland in the next few months...
> *
> I am watching what is going on in Northern Ireland with great interest because of what has happened in my family I have to make a choice of staying in England or moving back to Northern Ireland which my family want me to do with my dad. After what is going to happen soon with mum I will be leaving England. Circumstances have changed in my family which has made me and my dad look at where we need to be and that is in Northern Ireland after mum goes.


Yes, I'm sure this government would love to reverse the achievements of their predecessor John Major and return NI back under their control. No doubt NI born citizens would then lose their rights to have dual nationality will the republic (and thus the EU of course).

This has been one example of the benefit of EU membership, the freedom to move between the Republic and NI.

If May continues to prioritise on reducing and/or "controlling" immigration I fail to see how that can be achieved with a continued open border.


----------



## KittenKong

This I saw on another forum discussing Brexit really made me smile


----------



## stockwellcat.

*May set 'to deny second Scottish independence referendum*

Theresa May is preparing to reject a demand by Nicola Sturgeon for a second Scottish referendum, reports say.

The First Minister said on Monday she will seek Holyrood's approval next week for a new vote on Scottish independence.

But The Times reports the Prime Minister will refuse to allow the vote to take place in the next two years.

Ms Sturgeon has said the so-called indyref2 should be held between autumn 2018 and spring 2019.

Making the announcement in Edinburgh, the SNP leader said she believed people would now choose to break away from the UK in order to stay in the EU.

In 2014, Scotland voted to stay part of the UK by 55.3% to 44.7%; but in the Brexit vote Scots voted to remain in the EU by 62% to 38%.

The First Minister said it was about protecting Scotland's interests in "circumstances we didn't ask to be in".

Ms Sturgeon said Scotland was now at a "hugely important crossroads".

Mrs May accused the SNP of "tunnel vision" and insisted she wants to negotiate a Brexit deal "for the whole of the United Kingdom".

Ms Sturgeon said the proposed timing of the referendum would mean the terms of Brexit would likely be known and therefore voters could make an informed decision.

http://news.sky.com/story/sturgeon-seeks-second-scottish-independence-referendum-10800578

Before the remainers come back saying Theresa May can't do this, she can as Westminster gets the final say on this not Holyrood, Scotland is only a devolved state and do not hold powers to hold a referendum without permission from Westminster.

65% of UK public say no to a second Scottish Referendum
30% Say yes
5% Don't know.

Theresa May has the backing from the UK people to reject Holyrood's request for a second Referendum.

Scotland have not finished paying off there first Referendum, the money from which was paid for by UK tax payers.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> That will work wonders for the NI peace process wouldn't it, especially now the pro union and Brexit DUP only have a one seat majority now.


Well the DUP still won by a majority regardless of what you think. The problem is under the devolved powers act they have to form a power sharing Government with the next largest party which is Sin Fein, these two parties cannot be more opposite it would be like asking Conservatives to have a Coalition Government with Labour, it will never happen.

The DUP and Sin Fein have been negotiating since the election result but are not going to compromise. Under devolved laws if no power sharing Government can be found an emergency legislation will be presented to take back devolved powers from Northern Ireland so it is back under direct rule from the Palace of Westminster.

In answer to you sly dig of a question. No, no one wants the peace process derailing but the Irish Government put itself in this position arguing with Arlene Foster (DUP leader and First Minister at the time and now acting First Minister) over a botched renewable energy scheme.

Northern Ireland have to have a power sharing devolved Government to trigger a border poll (Referendum to unite Ireland) They don't currently have one as the two leading parties can't agree to form one. They have 13 days to form a power sharing Government as 8 days has already lapsed and the clock is ticking.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## cheekyscrip

To tell Scots they have no rights and Westminster will tell them what to do and when will really make them live being part of UK.


----------



## rona

I'm saddened at how we are treating those from the EU already living in our country


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> To tell Scots they have no rights and Westminster will tell them what to do and when will really make them live being part of UK.


Scotland are part of the UK first not the EU so yes they will have to do what the Palace of Westminster say as this is were the UK Government is.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> *No doubt NI born citizens would then lose their rights to have dual nationality will the republic (and thus the EU of course).*


No Northern Ireland born citizens like myself would not lose there right to dual nationality with the Republic of Ireland as they were born in the Island of Ireland as a whole country which is what the current laws state and will stay in force. Northern Ireland is in the UK at the moment and the Republic in the EU and if this don't change then the current dual nationality rule will still stay as it is.

The current law states:
If you were born in the island of Ireland before 2005 you can have an Irish Passport and the right to live and work in the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, UK and EU. You also have the right to identify yourself as Irish or British or both and you are entitled to have an Irish Passport or British Passport or both. You also have the right to vote in Irish elections in Northern Ireland, UK elections as a whole or elections in the Republic of Ireland.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I'm saddened at how we are treating those from the EU already living in our country


The Poles are leaving. Those who can afford it.

I have no idea what we can do here. I was too my work will be open till the end of the year , now it is doubtful.
Change of taxes overnight just unheard of!. With lies why they did it.
Normally except in war you have some time till deadline to finish what is on.
Now our work can be legally continued only in Far East, but in Gibraltar or Channel Islands.
Why force business to go out of British territory? Why?


----------



## Honeys mum

Queen set to approve Brexit Bill at breakfast tomorrow | London Evening Standard









http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...exit-bill-at-breakfast-tomorrow-a3488161.html


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 303108
> View attachment 303109


Ok, yeah. 22bn divided by 52 = ............ you need a new calculator.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> This I saw on another forum discussing Brexit really made me smile
> View attachment 303117


Tory Ice Cream?


----------



## Satori

Honeys mum said:


> Lords pass landmark Brexit bill - BBC News


Isn't it just wonderful news?

A fantastic victory for Theresa May and her government.

It just shows how our democratic processes respond to strong principled leadership.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is proof the DUP and Sinn Fein won't be able to form a power sharing Government in Northern Ireland:

*Unionists anger at Sinn Fein's call for Irish border poll in wake of SNP Scotland referendum move.*
Sinn Fein has been accused of a "clear disregard" for trying to make Northern Ireland work after calling for a border poll following Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon's demand for a second independence referendum.

Sinn Fein Stormont leader Michelle O'Neill made no direct connection between Ms Sturgeon's call to the Government for permission to hold another referendum in Scotland.

Instead, she put it down to a Government that "refused to listen" to the majority here who voted to remain in the EU.

Ms Sturgeon said she hoped the next referendum would take place between the autumn 2018 and the spring of 2019.

That will coincide with the anticipated conclusion of the UK's two-year negotiations over EU withdrawal.

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/new...of-snp-scotland-referendum-move-35528241.html


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat, post: 

Before the remainers come back saying Theresa May can't do this, she can as Westminster gets the final say on this not Holyrood, 

Theresa May has the backing from the UK people to reject Holyrood's request for a second Referendum
-------------------------------
Yes, we know May will try to stop Sturgeon but it would be in her best interests to allow Scotland a second independence referendum. May, behaving like a dictator showing not a gramme of respect for Scotland and the rest of the 48% will only cause resentment. I can see the demand for Indyref 2 growing if May persistently refuses Scotland a say in its own affairs.

And where do you get those figures from? How have the rest of the UK the right to dictate to Scotland? It'll only fuel the desire for an independent Scotland.
---------------------
stockwellcat, Well the DUP still won by a majority regardless of what you think. The problem is under the devolved powers act they have to form a power sharing Government with the next largest party which is Sin Fein, these two parties cannot be more opposite it would be like asking Conservatives to have a Coalition Government with Labour, it will never happen.

The DUP and Sin Fein have been negotiating since the election result but are not going to compromise. Under devolved laws if no power sharing Government can be found an emergency legislation will be presented to take back devolved powers from Northern Ireland so it is back under direct rule from the Palace of Westminster.

In answer to you sly dig of a question. No, no one wants the peace process derailing but the Irish Government put itself in this position arguing with Arlene Foster (DUP leader and First Minister at the time and now acting First Minister) over a botched renewable energy scheme.

Northern Ireland have to have a power sharing devolved Government to trigger a border poll (Referendum to unite Ireland) They don't currently have one as the two leading parties can't agree to form one. They have 13 days to form a power sharing Government as 8 days has already lapsed and the clock is ticking.
-------------
Not quite true. Didn't sworn enemies McGuinness and the Rev. Ian Paisley get on remarkably well? It was wonderful to see that. 

Seems you wouldn't be blaming the DUP, who after all backed Brexit and had a 4 page advertisement promoting leave in a free newspaper!

With them only having a majority of one with the Republicans gaining seats May needs to tread carefully I think.
-------------
[QUOTE="stockwellcat, post:No Northern Ireland born citizens like myself would not lose there right to dual nationality with the Republic of Ireland as they were born in the Island of Ireland as a whole country which is what the current laws state and will stay in force. Northern Ireland is in the UK at the moment and the Republic in the EU and if this don't change then the current dual nationality rule will still stay as it is.

The current law states:
If you were born in the island of Ireland before 2005 you can have an Irish Passport and the right to live and work in the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, UK and EU. You also have the right to identify yourself as Irish or British or both and you are entitled to have an Irish Passport or British Passport or both. You also have the right to vote in Irish elections in Northern Ireland, UK elections as a whole or elections in the Republic of Ireland
------------------------
Yes, but rules and laws can change. I wouldn't be too complacent if I were you until you know exactly what's going to happen...


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> stockwellcat, post:
> 
> Before the remainers come back saying Theresa May can't do this, she can as Westminster gets the final say on this not Holyrood,
> 
> Theresa May has the backing from the UK people to reject Holyrood's request for a second Referendum
> -------------------------------
> Yes, we know May will try to stop Sturgeon but it would be in her best interests to allow Scotland a second independence referendum. May, behaving like a dictator showing not a gram of respect for Scotland and the rest of the 48% will only cause resentment. I can see the demand for Indyref 2 growing if May persistently refuses Scotland a say in its own affairs.
> ---------------------
> stockwellcat, Well the DUP still won by a majority regardless of what you think. The problem is under the devolved powers act they have to form a power sharing Government with the next largest party which is Sin Fein, these two parties cannot be more opposite it would be like asking Conservatives to have a Coalition Government with Labour, it will never happen.
> 
> The DUP and Sin Fein have been negotiating since the election result but are not going to compromise. Under devolved laws if no power sharing Government can be found an emergency legislation will be presented to take back devolved powers from Northern Ireland so it is back under direct rule from the Palace of Westminster.
> 
> In answer to you sly dig of a question. No, no one wants the peace process derailing but the Irish Government put itself in this position arguing with Arlene Foster (DUP leader and First Minister at the time and now acting First Minister) over a botched renewable energy scheme.
> 
> Northern Ireland have to have a power sharing devolved Government to trigger a border poll (Referendum to unite Ireland) They don't currently have one as the two leading parties can't agree to form one. They have 13 days to form a power sharing Government as 8 days has already lapsed and the clock is ticking.
> -------------
> Not quite true. Didn't sworn enemies McGuinness and the Rev. Ian Paisley get on remarkably well? It was wonderful to see that.
> 
> Seems you wouldn't be blaming the DUP, who after all backed Brexit and had a 4 page advertisement promoting leave in a free newspaper!
> 
> With them only having a majority of one with the Republicans gaining seats May needs to tread carefully I think.
> -------------
> [QUOTE="stockwellcat, post:No Northern Ireland born citizens like myself would not lose there right to dual nationality with the Republic of Ireland as they were born in the Island of Ireland as a whole country which is what the current laws state and will stay in force. Northern Ireland is in the UK at the moment and the Republic in the EU and if this don't change then the current dual nationality rule will still stay as it is.
> 
> The current law states:
> If you were born in the island of Ireland before 2005 you can have an Irish Passport and the right to live and work in the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, UK and EU. You also have the right to identify yourself as Irish or British or both and you are entitled to have an Irish Passport or British Passport or both. You also have the right to vote in Irish elections in Northern Ireland, UK elections as a whole or elections in the Republic of Ireland
> ------------------------
> Yes, but rules and laws can change. I wouldn't be too complacent if I were you until you know exactly what's going to happen...


Here are the problems with the DUP and Sinn Fein:
1) DUP want to leave the EU
2) Sinn Fein want to remain
3) DUP don't want a border poll
4) Sinn Fein want to trigger a border poll to reunited Ireland.

DUP no matter how narrow (1 seat) won the elections in Northern Ireland which means Arlene Foster becomes First Minister again if a power sharing Government can be formed. Unlike the rest of the UK, Northern Ireland has to be Governed by a power sharing Government. The two top parties do not agree in alot of areas not just what I have pointed out above. They are trying to find common ground but 13 days will soon slip away. What happens next? Under normal circumstances the Northern Irish will go back to the polling booth and be given one more chance to form a Power Sharing Government. But under agreement from Westminster this has been waivered. So if no Power Sharing Government is formed direct rule is taken back by Westminster which would also happen in normal circumstances with any devolved assembly or Government of the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see Gina Miller is off again trying to take the Government to court because she didn't like that the Amendments got rejected last night and she believes that amendment B1 or Amendment 2 should be on the Brexit bill. That is Parliament has a meaningful vote even though Parliament and House of Lords rejected both Amendments.

Who on earth does she think she is?

This won't hold anything up as royal assent will be given today making the bill enshrined into UK law and giving Theresa May the authority to trigger Article 50.

Gina Miller is unlikely to get this through the High Court at all, plus she has hardly got any support for this court case, she admitted this on Sky News live. She also admitted she is just doing it for the sake of doing it to try and frustrate the process further.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> It just shows how our democratic processes respond to strong principled leadership.


Maybe you need to get your glasses changed. She might be strong but far from principled.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Who on earth does she think she is?


Someone who demands a right to have a say and not be ignored like the majority of the population to serve the political ambitions of a few.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Maybe you need to get your glasses changed. She might be strong but far from principled.


I wouldn't even say the former. I understand she was visibly shaking with rage yesterday over Nicola Sturgeon.

Seeing she can't even handle first leaders in the UK without literally frothing at the mouth I dread to think of the tantrums she'll have trying to negotiate with the 27 member states.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> But The Times reports the Prime Minister will refuse to allow the vote to take place in the next two years.


Oh we know what May wants. Puts the lies of the leave campaign more into the light though doesn't it? UK retained sovereignty and control of their own destiny while in the EU but scotland doesn't within the UK.

If you remember in 2014 scotland voted to stay after being promised substantial changes. How many have been fulfilled?



> Mrs May accused the SNP of "tunnel vision"


It's an opportunity to exploit weakness. Brillliant tactical move for the scots politically.



> Before the remainers come back saying Theresa May can't do this, she can as Westminster gets the final say on this not Holyrood, Scotland is only a devolved state and do not hold powers to hold a referendum without permission from Westminster.


Again, according to the constitution, just as the referendum to leave the EU was non-binding. Didn't stop it did it, nothing to stop the scots having a non-binding referendum. Wouldn't leave May much choice considering her own stance on the referendum would it.



> Theresa May has the backing from the UK people to reject Holyrood's request for a second Referendum.


So we don't believe in "giving back control". Those who support leaving the EU as we have the right to "keep control" are hypocrits if they do not support the rights of the scots to vote if they want to leave the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Theresa May 'to block Nicola Sturgeon's second independence referendum until after Brexit'*
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ependence-second-referendum-a7628491.html?amp

Published one hour ago.


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> Someone who demands a right to have a say and not be ignored like the majority of the population to serve the political ambitions of a few.[/QUOTE
> 
> Don't you mean, someone who likes to be in the limeligh,. also someone who thinks money can get her anything she wants.


----------



## havoc

It's the words 'until after Brexit' I find interesting. Does this mean she won't block another referendum after?


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Don't you mean, someone who likes to be in the limeligh,. also someone who thinks money can get her anything she wants.


Strange what she has mostly is grief. She's stood up for democracy rather than flip for political gain unlike the current PM.

Just been listening to May describing how she's listening to people including those from scotland and working on a deal that works for everyone. So, just what has she compromised on rather than dictate? I'm sure cheekyscrip has ample factual experience of that rather than simply her politician spin words.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Scotland are part of the UK first not the EU so yes they will have to do what the Palace of Westminster say as this is were the UK Government is.


It's ironic that some Leavers were complaining so much about the UK's lack of sovereignty when we could have left the EU at any time by Parliament simply repealing the 1972 European Act.

Scotland, on the other hand, have absolutely no way of leaving the UK unless the Prime Minister in Westminster grants them permission to hold a referendum, and some Leavers seem to think that is quite right and proper.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Just been listening to May describing how she's listening to people including those from scotland and working on a deal that works for everyone. So, just what has she compromised on rather than dictate? I'm sure cheekyscrip has ample factual experience of that rather than simply her politician spin words.


Perhaps she's responding to letters in "The Sun" which is hardly a representation of the entire UK general public.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps she's responding to letters in "The Sun" which is hardly a representation of the entire UK general public.


'Sun' readers write letters?!

Well you learn something new every day!


----------



## cheekyscrip

It is obvious, if paraphrasing Orwell, all British are equal, but some British are more equal than others.


British from Gibraltar, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Falklands, Channel Islands are obviously less equal.


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## stockwellcat.

Scotland's cry for freedom went down well at the EU. First Spain and then Brussels said the same thing today:

*Scotland would be be at back of queue to join EU if it becomes independent, says Spanish foreign minister*


> obstacles to entry for an independent Scotland and made it clear the country would receive no special treatment.





> Scotland "would have to queue, meet the requirements for entry, hold negotiations and the result would be that these negotiations would take place."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/scotland-independence-referendum-spain-foreign-minister-alfonso-dastis-eu-brexit-nicola-sturgeon-a7629776.html?amp


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Scotland would be be at back of queue to join EU if it becomes independent, says Spanish foreign minister]


Who said anything about Scotland wanting, or expecting to re-join the EU post Brexit?

All they're asking for is access to the single market even if England leave it. Not much to ask is it?


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> It's ironic that some Leavers were complaining so much about the UK's lack of sovereignty when we could have left the EU at any time by Parliament simply repealing the 1972 European Act.
> 
> Scotland, on the other hand, have absolutely no way of leaving the UK unless the Prime Minister in Westminster grants them permission to hold a referendum, and some Leavers seem to think that is quite right and proper.


I hope they do get their referendum! They should have to wait for it though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Who said anything about Scotland wanting, or expecting to re-join the EU post Brexit?


Sturgeon keeps saying she doesn't want Scotland to leave the EU not the single market. Angus Robertson wants Scotland to remain in the EU's single market but not the UK's.


> All they're asking for is access to the single market even if England leave it. Not much to ask is it?


The UK is a single market and they'd be part of the UK's single market staying in the UK leaving would mean Scotland would have to pay for access to the UK's single market whom Scotland get most of there trade from.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Sturgeon
> The UK is a single market and they'd be part of the UK's single market staying in the UK leaving would mean Scotland would have to pay for access to the UK's single market whom Scotland get most of there trade from.


Singular that.
I think you have what it takes to be our next PM.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Singular that.*
> I think you have what it takes to be our next PM.*


Vote for me then in the next GE


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Vote for me then in the next GE


I cannot. Gibraltar has no right to vote, but I am sure plenty will!


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, cheekyscrip:

Singular that.
I think you have what it takes to be our next PM.

/QUOTE
.
.
Mmm. 
And that would be?... Praps _an incredible ability to make brief, succinct, yet almost-Oracular statements that require 10X the amount of explaining to actually communicate what the original 'brief' statement, actually meant. :Hilarious_
_._
Kinda like Trumpling - except he's not brief, merely confusing, repetitive, & vague, with lots of sweeping promises & no plan to accomplish them. But he DOES require translators & apologists who carefully explain that he didn't mean what he said, exactly.
.
_._
_._


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> I hope they do get their referendum! They should have to wait for it though.


Why should they 'have to wait for it', and for how long?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> The UK is a single market and they'd be part of the UK's single market staying in the UK leaving would mean Scotland would have to pay for access to the UK's single market whom Scotland get most of there trade from.


Surely we'd give them a completely free trade arrangement with no tariffs or access payments? That would be the best thing for both of us. Unless we want to punish Scotland for leaving, which would just be petty of the UK 3.

Or so I understand.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Surely we'd give them a completely free trade arrangement with no tariffs or access payments? That would be the best thing for both of us. Unless we want to punish Scotland for leaving, which would just be petty of the UK 3.
> 
> Or so I understand.


Well the EU plans to punish the UK with a £60 billion bill for wanting to leave the EU.

Northern Ireland would have to pay a £30 billion bill to unite with the Republic of Ireland.

So why not charge Scotland? They'd have to pay to join the EU after all.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well the EU plans to punish the UK with a £60 billion bill for wanting to leave the EU. .


How is that a punishment when the UK chooses to leave voluntarily? If you broke a contract you'd expect to be charged wouldn't you?


----------



## Goblin

KittenKong said:


> How is that a punishment when the UK chooses to leave voluntarily? If you broke a contract you'd expect to be charged wouldn't you?


It's the whole leaver's drive (especially the media's push) to convince everyone that anything goes wrong can't be the UK's fault. EU still makes a great scapegoat. Rather ironic isn't it how the EU are far more open and honest than the UK government. Has Farage mentioned yet if he's prepared to give up his pension?


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> How is that a punishment when the UK chooses to leave voluntarily? If you broke a contract you'd expect to be charged wouldn't you?


I think it's money they have given us for furture development roads ect... we have to pay it back.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I think it's money they have given us for furture development roads ect... we have to pay it back.


And so they should.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Colliebarmy

Finally Brexit can be set in motion, cut the chains to Europe that are holding us back....

Sturgeon reveals herself everyday as a sad dictator hell bent on trying to split Scotland away from the UK, i say let em go, lets have border control and choose who comes into England


----------



## Colliebarmy

Happy Paws said:


> I think it's money they have given us for furture development roads ect... we have to pay it back.


who has given who the most?

how many Euro HGV's have pounded our roads into submission while using cheaper Euro-diesel and paying no UK road tax while our haulage firms have been decimated while paying £2000 a year road tax? and then having to pay EU toll road fees if driving over there


----------



## Colliebarmy

stockwellcat said:


> Well the EU plans to punish the UK with a £60 billion bill for wanting to leave the EU.
> 
> Northern Ireland would have to pay a £30 billion bill to unite with the Republic of Ireland.
> 
> So why not charge Scotland? They'd have to pay to join the EU after all.


How much would England save by setting N.I. and Scotland free?


----------



## Happy Paws2

What about the money we have had for building hospitals, schools and the railways over the years plus extentions to airports.


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> Why should they 'have to wait for it', and for how long?


And why shouldn't they?
Some of us waited forty years for the EU vote!
Were they not told last time it was a once in a generation vote?
No ones saying they can't have another, but think TM should be focused on the task in hand for the immediate future!


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> What about the money we have had for building hospitals, schools and the railways over the years plus extentions to airports.


And why have we needed all these new schools, don't tell me, it's the aging population putting a strain on the education system


----------



## KittenKong

Colliebarmy said:


> Finally Brexit can be set in motion, cut the chains to Europe that are holding us back....
> 
> Sturgeon reveals herself everyday as a sad dictator hell bent on trying to split Scotland away from the UK, i say let em go, lets have border control and choose who comes into England


.....And the chains to prevent any of us from retiring abroad too no doubt.

I think you need to look towards Downing Street before accusing Sturgeon of being a sad dictator.

She was democratically elected by the Scottish people after all, not May who wasn't even elected as PM by the people.

The SNP's manifesto clearly stated a second independence referendum could be on the cards if Scotland is forced out of the EU against its wishes. This is exactly what's happened. May will not back down. Sturgeon is only carrying out a manifesto promise the people voted her on.

What on earth is wrong with that? Wouldn't you have been annoyed if Cameron went back on his manifesto pledge to hold the EU referendum?

For May to ignore the EU referendum result and indeed 48% of those who voted could well backfire on her very badly in time as the Poll Tax did for Thatcher.


----------



## stuaz

In the U.K. you don't elect a PM you elect a party who elect a leader @KittenKong so yes the conservatives (the party) was democratically elected.


----------



## stuaz

Regarding Scotland, I think they would be foolish to have there referendum before it's known what sort of deal the U.K. will get from the EU. In fact I don't think it would be fair on the Scottish people if they were made to decide beforehand. 

We all knew they would want/get another referendum with the SNP in power but let's do it with some sense for everyone involved.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Regarding Scotland, I think they would be foolish to have there referendum before it's known what sort of deal the U.K. will get from the EU. In fact I don't think it would be fair on the Scottish people if they were made to decide beforehand.
> 
> We all knew they would want/get another referendum with the SNP in power but let's do it with some sense for everyone involved.


Maybe then Scots ...their parliament, should decide when they want it, if they want it, how they want it?

Simples. Why tell them what is good for them?

Once a lifetime, but it is nit the same UK any more?

They may not want to jump off the cliff? Do not drag them.


----------



## Goblin

stuaz said:


> In the U.K. you don't elect a PM you elect a party who elect a leader @KittenKong so yes the conservatives (the party) was democratically elected.


Based on a manifesto which includes things like strengthening the UK's place in the single market along with other things thrown out by May and her cronies. Even the "unelected bureaucrats of the EU" actually have a better democratic position as they don't set policy. The UK cannot deny scotland without being totally hypocritical.

Referendum was once in a lifetime unless the rights of the people changed dramatically. It has. Scotland was also promised changes which may or may not have been fullfilled. If not...

I agree it would be stupid for Scotland to leave, doesn't mean they don't have the right to try. Then again, it's simply another version of the EU referendum. Stupid to leave that as well. I would hope any campaign would be based on positives, though I doubt that. Lies and negatives seem to be far more effective.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Maybe then Scots ...their parliament, should decide when they want it, if they want it, how they want it?
> 
> Simples. Why tell them what is good for them?
> 
> Once a lifetime, but it is nit the same UK any more?
> 
> They may not want to jump off the cliff? Do not drag them.


The law is very clear when it comes to devolved governments in the U.K. and what they can and cannot do. It's quite a large constitutional change to allow them to control the referendum. From a legal point of view, one would ask why they were happy to abide by the rules last time, so why not this time?


----------



## stuaz

Goblin said:


> Based on a manifesto which includes things like strengthening the UK's place in the single market along with other things thrown out by May and her cronies. Even the "unelected bureaucrats of the EU" actually have a better democratic position as they don't set policy. The UK cannot deny scotland without being totally hypocritical.
> 
> I agree it would be stupid for Scotland to leave, doesn't mean they don't have the right to try. I would hope any campaign would be based on positives though I doubt that. Lies and negatives are far more effective.


I agree @Goblin. I for one don't think the UK government will 100% prevent the referendum, I just think they want to control the timing to be after the deal is known which I think is very wise for all people involved.

I am not looking forward to all the propaganda form both sides though to be dominating the news cycle


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> The law is very clear when it comes to devolved governments in the U.K. and what they can and cannot do. It's quite a large constitutional change to allow them to control the referendum. From a legal point of view, one would ask why they were happy to abide by the rules last time, so why not this time?


Times are changing.

Lets say they are responsible adults and Westminster attitude reminds me those arguments from times long gone that " we have to rule feeble minded natives, because they simply cannot rule themselves ".
The more Scots are treated like that the resentment it would bring.
How much British resented EU for not listening enough?
Merkel deciding what is good for EU without proper consultation, whether she was right or wrong?
Yes. It would be much better for UK to stay in EU as far as economy is concerned.

If you think it is better for Scotland to stay in, try to be nice to them, not to bully them to stay.


----------



## Goblin

stuaz said:


> I agree @Goblin. I for one don't think the UK government will 100% prevent the referendum, I just think they want to control the timing to be after the deal is known which I think is very wise for all people involved.


Well the UK has a poor negotiating to begin with. The very fact that "weakening" the position demonstates this is the case. Not allowed parliament to agree to terms, no scottish referendum. If they were so sure they wouldn't be so afraid of weakening it further. Despite the rhetoric they obviously realise no deal would be disastrous. In addition the government and media wouldn't be pushing blame already under the label of "punishment of the EU".

This despite the fact there is no real opposition at the moment. Says a lot in itself.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Times are changing.
> 
> Lets say they are responsible adults and Westminster attitude reminds me those arguments from times long gone that " we have to rule feeble minded natives, because they simply cannot rule themselves ".
> The more Scots are treated like that the resentment it would bring.
> How much British resented EU for not listening enough?
> Merkel deciding what is good for EU without proper consultation, whether she was right or wrong?
> Yes. It would be much better for UK to stay in EU as far as economy is concerned.
> 
> If you think it is better for Scotland to stay in, try to be nice to them, not to bully them to stay.


Times they are a changing... "There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen." Lenin I think(?).

Whatever way you cut it though @cheekyscrip the law is very clear on this one, and I see no reason that it should be changed at the moment especially as the last one followed the rules.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> In the U.K. you don't elect a PM you elect a party who elect a leader @KittenKong so yes the conservatives (the party) was democratically elected.


Well, using your argument when Tony Blair stood down Jeremy Corbyn didn't take his place and completely dismantle New Labour then form a Militant Tendency government.

We've seen the equivalent to this happen with the Tory party.

They've literally become UKIP which were never elected in to government.

Yes, leaders do change from time to time but we've seldom seen a complete change in direction as we've seen with the Tories.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Times they are a changing... "There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen." Lenin I think(?).
> 
> Whatever way you cut it though @cheekyscrip the law is very clear on this one, and I see no reason that it should be changed at the moment especially as the last one followed the rules.


I do.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> I do.


Ok what reason do you see? (That isn't emotional but rational & logical).


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Well, using your argument when Tony Blair stood down Jeremy Corbyn didn't take his place and completely dismantle New Labour then form a Militant Tendency government.
> 
> We've seen the equivalent to this happen with the Tory party.
> 
> They've literally become UKIP which were never elected in to government.
> 
> Yes, leaders do change from time to time but we've seldom seen a complete change in direction as we've seen with the Tories.


While some of what you say might be true, It doesn't change the fact that the party *was* elected. Who the leader is, under the rules of this country can be anyone who the party decides.

Personally speaking, if I felt there was any form of opposition in this country, I would have fought for a general election, but as it stands at the moment, its likely only to produce another conservative government.


----------



## Satori

Colliebarmy said:


> How much would England save by setting N.I. and Scotland free?


I don't know the number for NI but for Scotland it is about £15 billion per year. That is the net Scottish budget deficit which is entirely funded by England in effect. Scotland is a massively under productive nation that depends on foreign aid from England to scrape by.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> I don't know the number for NI but for Scotland it is about £15 billion per year. That is the net Scottish budget deficit which is entirely funded by England in effect. Scotland is a massively under productive nation that depends on foreign aid from England to scrape by.


Northern Ireland fiscal deficit is £9 billion 2013 to 2014 (I do believe this has remained the same since these dates until now). The deficit in Northern Ireland dropped from £10 billion in 2010 to 2011 to £9 billion in 2013 to 2014.

This news report is the most up to date I could find and is dated 19th January 2016
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/35344941

http://m.independent.ie/business/ir...ormalising-but-big-risks-remain-34693540.html

*Northern Ireland economy 'to grow by 1% in 2017 and 2018'*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38180082


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> I don't know the number for NI but for Scotland it is about £15 billion per year. That is the net Scottish budget deficit which is entirely funded by England in effect. Scotland is a massively under productive nation that depends on foreign aid from England to scrape by.


Which does not include any advantages which the UK gains does it, like free movement of people, trade supporting english economy etc etc etc.


----------



## KittenKong

Colliebarmy said:


> who has given who the most?
> 
> how many Euro HGV's have pounded our roads into submission while using cheaper Euro-diesel and paying no UK road tax while our haulage firms have been decimated while paying £2000 a year road tax? and then having to pay EU toll road fees if driving over there


And who's fault is that? Not the EU. Diesel was 1.09€ a litre in Spain when I was there a few weeks ago. Might have gone up a little since but certainly not around the £1.22 charged in the UK.

Toll Roads are surely the responsibility of the individual countries in question? Why does the UK have very few seeing they are fully paid up EU members at present?

Perhaps you would welcome more of them in the UK? Suppose it would make it fairer....


----------



## KittenKong

Very ironic tweet from the 2014 Scottish independence referendum's no campaign.

Just goes to show how much has changed in two short years.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Very ironic tweet from the 2014 Scottish independence referendum's no campaign.
> 
> Just goes to show how much has changed in two short years.
> View attachment 303201


Let the Scots have there:









I wonder how long it will take them to realise they will have a hard border with the rest of the UK that includes Northern Ireland and the rest of Europe (as they aren't an independent country in Europe). So having there freedom means they will also be building these:









This would be the best case of modern Isolationism by any country.

The EU have warned Scotland repeatedly that they would have to join the queue for EU membership before they are even considered for membership. To join the EU they'd have to pay for membership like any other country in the EU and Scotland would be cutting themselves off from there closest neighbours England, Wales and Northern Ireland and taking themselves out of the UK single market.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Which does not include any advantages which the UK gains does it, like free movement of people, trade supporting english economy etc etc etc.


No, but that benefit runs both ways. Bottom line, if Scotland is ever to be independent they need to earn a lot more and spend a lot less.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> Northern Ireland fiscal deficit is £9 billion 2013 to 2014 (I do believe this has remained the same since these dates until now). The deficit in Northern Ireland dropped from £10 billion in 2010 to 2011 to £9 billion in 2013 to 2014.
> 
> This news report is the most up to date I could find and is dated 19th January 2016
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/35344941
> 
> http://m.independent.ie/business/ir...ormalising-but-big-risks-remain-34693540.html
> 
> *Northern Ireland economy 'to grow by 1% in 2017 and 2018'*
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38180082


Wow. Big numbers. So the UK treasury could be up £24bn per year without the poor relatives.

A lot of money that.

To be fair we'd probably piss it up the wall on the NHS or something but it makes yer think.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Let the Scots have there:
> View attachment 303202
> 
> 
> I wonder how long it will take them to realise they will have a hard border with the rest of the UK that includes Northern Ireland and the rest of Europe (as they aren't an independent country in Europe). So having there freedom means they will also be building these:
> View attachment 303203
> 
> 
> This would be the best case of modern Isolationism by any country.
> 
> The EU have warned Scotland repeatedly that they would have to join the queue for EU membership before they are even considered for membership. To join the EU they'd have to pay for membership like any other country in the EU and Scotland would be cutting themselves off from there closest neighbours England, Wales and Northern Ireland and taking themselves out of the UK single market.


Conversely if Brexit does turn out to be disastrous the government might seek to re apply for EEA membership.

Any borders that may result will be due to the present government.

It's them who are obsessed with "controlling" or reducing immigration just as Trump is with his Mexican wall, so much they are sacrificing the single market for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...uk-construction-sector-lose-175000-eu-workers









No doubt some will be delighted to read this. The anti immigration stance is certainly working.

If it was me I wouldn't want to remain in a backward thinking xenophobic country much of the UK has become. I would go where I would be welcome.


----------



## noushka05

Run, Run for your lives N.Ireland & Scotland.

Sinn Fein calls for referendum on Northern Ireland leaving the UK 'as soon as possible'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-scottish-independence-indyref2-a7628591.html


----------



## rona

Anything that stops our green fields from disappearing under some construction site or another, has got to be a good thing


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Run, Run for your lives N.Ireland & Scotland.
> 
> Sinn Fein calls for referendum on Northern Ireland leaving the UK 'as soon as possible'
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-scottish-independence-indyref2-a7628591.html


Northern Ireland are in a different situation than that of Scotland. All they have to do is unite with the Republic of Ireland at the cost of £35 billion. Scotland have to start from scratch if they left the UK.

The only problem with Sinn Fein demanding this is that the DUP won the election in Northern Ireland by one seat and the DUP do not share the same view as Sinn Fein on a border poll.

Plus tick tock the Northern Ireland assembly have less than two weeks (11 days) to form a power sharing Government otherwise Westminster take direct rule.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Anything that stops our green fields from disappearing under some construction site or another, has got to be a good thing


Fracking. Deregulation of environmental protections, pesticide controls ripped up etc. We'll be back to the 'dirty man of Europe' in no time.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Northern Ireland are in a different situation than that of Scotland. All they have to do is unite with the Republic of Ireland at the cost of £35 billion. Scotland have to start from scratch.
> 
> The only problem with Sinn Fein demanding this is that the DUP won the election in Northern Ireland by one seat and the DUP do not share the same view as Sinn Fein on a border poll.
> 
> Plus tick tock the Northern Ireland assembly have less than two weeks (11 days) to form a power sharing Government otherwise Westminster take direct rule.


Thanks to brexit the union is fracturing. At least when we become little insignificant England the nationalists will look even sillier. Great Britain? hardly.


----------



## noushka05

This is excellent. http://blogs.ft.com/david-allen-gre...fication=conditional_standard&iab=barrier-app


----------



## noushka05

Well said the Scottish Greens, standing with the SNP.


----------



## noushka05

*GeorgeMonbiot*‏@*GeorgeMonbiot* Mar 13

_The question in the new __#_*ScotRef*_: when England throws itself out of the boat like a
block of concrete, do you want your foot tied to it?_

29 replies 840 retweets 1,157 likes

That is a good question.


----------



## havoc

noushka05 said:


> Thanks to brexit the union is fracturing.


It very well may but like everything else it's a 'wait and see'. If the negotiations don't go well there's every chance it will happen. Relying on the situation as it is now to say what will happen and what those regions can and can't do is pointless. The only thing we can be sure of is that anything can change - can be changed.

I would agree that NI is better placed to leave the union and a (re)united Ireland looks more likely than at any time since partition. I can't see a hard border between north and south which would mean it moving to between NI and the mainland. If that happens the population are going to feel far more aligned with the south than the rest of the UK.


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> And why shouldn't they?
> Some of us waited forty years for the EU vote!
> Were they not told last time it was a once in a generation vote?
> No ones saying they can't have another, but think TM should be focused on the task in hand for the immediate future!


Your reason for saying they should have to wait is "why shouldn't they"?! They are a country in their own right, supposedly an equal partner in the UK and you wan't to bully them simply because you can. Some people want to leave the EU because it has the power to tell us what to do, and you are more than happy for England to tell Scotland what they can and can't do. So much for democracy.

It was a once in a generation vote unless something changed significantly. It would be hard for anyone to argue that Brexit doesn't represent a significant change.

And May focusing on the 'task in hand' is another dismissal of the Scottish position as something that doesn't matter. Oh, we'll get round to Scotland's wishes when the important matters have been dealt with. How arrogant.

Scotland don't want to leave the EU, and your suggestion is to ignore them completely until they have been dragged out against their wishes, and then, when it's way too late to prevent what they see as a damaging change, deign to consider them if it can be fitted into May's busy schedule which is currently filled with Keeping the Tories in Power.

No wonder Scotland want to leave the English to it. So would I if I could.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Anything that stops our green fields from disappearing under some construction site or another, has got to be a good thing


But Brexit will bring the opposite to what you wish for!!!
Much more concrete on green belts, Heathrow expanding, more factories instead of making money on financial services!!!
Immigrants from EU replaced by " controlled" immigration from Commonwealth!!!
Not that sheer volume will go down!!!
Do you think Pakistanis take less space in schools, hospitals or housing?
If anything it is easier to assimilate cultural values between European nations, but it is just IMO.
Brexit will be eco disaster.

Britain will be about 20% poorer.
Where the cuts will be made?
Environmental protection will be first to go!!!!

Who will take control?
Big corps. What do they care about your green fields?
Nil.
What do they care about?
Profit.

Why FTSE not too worried about Brexit?
That is why.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Run, Run for your lives N.Ireland & Scotland.
> 
> Sinn Fein calls for referendum on Northern Ireland leaving the UK 'as soon as possible'
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-scottish-independence-indyref2-a7628591.html


UK complained that it is wrong moment for Scots to have referendum?
How convenient was UK referendum for EU?
With problems with Russia, Trump, Greece, euro...

Did UK care about how it will affect other EU countries?
No.
Does UK care how it affects EU citizens in UK?
No.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

WTO rules are the same for All Members.
So product from China has the same tariff as product from Germany.
No separate deal like for example: Car industry?


Most of WTO rules are quite aged and do not reflect current economy.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
_"U don't need a piece of paper with numbers on it to have an *economic assessment*."_
_._
_._
*Really*? - ... 'Ow do you-lot do yers, then, eh? - Wif a bit a' chalk on a slate, er summat? :Jawdrop
.
Most of the world uses the "piece of paper", even if it's AFTER the bit where they enter all the data on a monitor screen to collate it & create graphs, tables, spreadsheets, etc.
.
What a maroon! 
.
.
.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Hopefully Scottish independance would include no Scottish MP's could sit as MP's in Westminster, saving us 50 lots of wages and 50 lots of office expenses and travel up/doon...


----------



## Colliebarmy

noushka05 said:


> Thanks to brexit the union is fracturing.


It is much older than Brexit, and lets think....would Sturgeon have a platform without Brexit? course she would


----------



## cheekyscrip

Tell Scots all about " Project Fear", flag waving against economy, " stronger together" and that Westminster and Ms May know better what is good for them.

Then tell the NI...

Also tell them how inconvenient it is to talk about it right now...
Scotland is at the moment at the back of the queue...
Ever wondered why so few Scots post here anymore?

Maybe they did Exit already?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 303284


But nobody gives a flying fart what Krankie has to say. She is a nobody. Even when the Scottish Nazi Party had a majority, she represented fewer people than does the Mayor of London for example. Now that bunch have lost their majority why oh why does anybody give her any attention? She matters not one jot, though she can be an irritant. Kind of like a mosquito and best dealt with the same way.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 303284


Kranky bleeting again.
It's funny she wants Independence, has she bothered doing a poll on the Scottish Governments website to see if anyone wants a referendum? Sky News did a poll yesterday and the majority of those the news reporters spoke to said "I am Scottish through and through but do not want Independence from the UK". So Sturgeon will be wasting UK tax payers money again holding her Referendum the majority of Scots don't want. She loves being centre of attention doesn't she.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Kranky bleeting again.
> It's funny she wants Independence, has she bothered doing a poll on the Scottish Governments website to see if anyone wants a referendum? Sky News did a poll yesterday and the majority of those the news reporters spoke to said "I am Scottish through and through but do not want Independence from the UK". So Sturgeon will be wasting UK tax payers money again holding her Referendum the majority of Scots don't want. She loves being centre of attention doesn't she.


Funny how people seem to think interviewing one or two people represents the entire population. Sky News is of course owned by Murdoch, say no more!

As for the SNP website..... I see only 8% of those asked would support the end of the Scottish Parliament!









I understand a petition against allowing a second independence referendum has reached 113,000 at present, according to the Torygraph.

I wonder how many Scottish people contributed?


----------



## 1290423

Crankie sturgeon has  left no doubt that the independence issue is personal, she admitted herself that she has dreamt of independence from the age of thirteen. How anyone can take the eejit seriously is beyond me! She will stop at nothing to get what she wants!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Funny how people seem to think interviewing one or two people represents the entire population. Sky News is of course owned by Murdoch, say no more!


Have a read:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...thinks-sturgeons-plans-independence-as57/amp/

57% of people on the You Gov poll do not want Independence.

It's you that is worried about Scotland and Stuegeon getting Independence no one else isn't really interested.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Funny how people seem to think interviewing one or two people represents the entire population. Sky News is of course owned by Murdoch, say no more!
> 
> As for the SNP website..... I see only 8% of those asked would support the end of the Scottish Parliament!
> View attachment 303293
> 
> 
> I understand a petition against allowing a second independence referendum has reached 113,000 at present, according to the Torygraph.
> 
> I wonder how many Scottish people contributed?


It's funny how when the newspapers you swear report facts say something different like the telegraph and you start slatting them down.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> It's funny how when the newspapers you swear report facts say something different like the telegraph and you start slatting them down.


Itssssss  rolling on my back laffing my socks off, bl**dy hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong you shouldn't have mentioned that petition to stop/block indyref2 as I went looking for it. The petition has more support than Sturgeon has for her second Scottish Referendum.

Here it is by the way if anyone wants to sign it 
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642

Reading the petition it sounds as if the Scots are fed up with Sturgeon 142,250+ have signed it.



> We in Scotland are fed up of persecution by the SNP leader who is solely intent on getting independence at any cost. As a result, Scotland is suffering hugely.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> @KittenKong you shouldn't have mentioned that petition to stop indyref2 as I went looking for it. The petition has more support than Sturgeon has for her second Scottish Referendum.
> 
> Here it is by the way if anyone wants to sign it
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642


Why should I not mention it? You would have found it sooner or later anyway.

Perhaps it has more support within the UK than in Scotland itself?

It'll only fuel the desire for Scottish independence for those that support it.

1.8m voted against Trump's visit to the UK which was completely ignored by May. She just does what she wants regardless of what people think.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps it has more support within the UK than in Scotland itself?


Actually very little support in England, Wales or Northern Ireland for the petition.
If you look at the map the majority of support for the petition is in Scotland. People in the Shetland and Orkney Islands have signed the petition as well as all over Scotland.

http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=180642


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Why should I not mention it? You would have found it sooner or later anyway
> 
> 1.8m voted against Trump's visit to the UK which was completely ignored by May. She just does what she wants regardless of what people think.


Agh! I get it! Your love affair with half the story!
You fail to mention the petition that also went round to allow trump INTO the uk!
Don't tell me, you work for the bbc


----------



## KittenKong

DT said:


> Agh! I get it! Your love affair with half the story!
> You fail to mention the petition that also went round to allow trump INTO the uk!
> Don't tell me, you work for the bbc


Yes, I remember that. Only in to the lower thousands I recall, nowhere near 1.8m.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Actually no support in England, Wales or Northern Ireland for the petition.
> If you look at the map the majority of support for the petition is in Scotland. People in the Shetland and Orkney Islands have signed the petition as well as all over Scotland.
> 
> http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=180642


Well of course they'll be people in Scotland who'll be against it. I'm sure if all Tory, Labour, Lib Dem etc. votes in Scotland were counted it would come to around the same number. Not nearly enough to win seats, bar 1 for each of these parties in Scotland.

I'm sure some SNP supporters will be against it too, just as there's some Tories who are against Brexit.

32% of voters in Scotland voted Leave too of course.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
hmm. 32% voted leave EU - that's, ummm, 68% who did *not *vote to leave the EU, yes?
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Well of course they'll be people in Scotland who'll be against it. I'm sure if all Tory, Labour, Lib Dem etc. votes in Scotland were counted it would come to around the same number. Not nearly enough to win seats, bar 1 for each of these parties in Scotland.
> 
> 32% of voters in Scotland voted Leave too of course.


Well let's check the petition in the morning shall we. 143,000 signatures at the moment.

Sturgeon better stake her career on the Referendum and step down when she loses if it gets given the go ahead from Parliament. Oh didn't you know both houses of Parliament have to vote on it first, so it won't just be TM blocking it. But I think the Scottish people might end up blocking it themselves.


----------



## KittenKong

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> hmm. 32% voted leave EU - that's, ummm, 68% who did *not *vote to leave the EU, yes?
> .
> .
> .


62% voted Remain in Scotland I believe.

Not one region voted in favour of Brexit.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Well of course they'll be people in Scotland who'll be against it. I'm sure if all Tory, Labour, Lib Dem etc. votes in Scotland were counted it would come to around the same number. Not nearly enough to win seats, bar 1 for each of these parties in Scotland.
> 
> I'm sure some SNP supporters will be against it too, just as there's some Tories who are against Brexit.
> 
> 32% of voters in Scotland voted Leave too of course.


Indeed, it`s hardly a surprise that those in Scotland against the idea of independence are going to sign a petition to prevent a second referendum! It`s the people in Scotland who don`t sign that matter.


----------



## KittenKong

http://m.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/an...is-destroyed/story-30206844-detail/story.html

Shows the lack of respect for people with a different viewpoint from some Brexiteers.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat said:


> Well let's check the petition in the morning shall we. 143,000 signatures at the moment.
> 
> Sturgeon better stake her career on the Referendum and step down when she loses if it gets given the go ahead from Parliament.


I should imagine she is well aware her political career is at stake. She is unlikely to call for a referendum if she thought she had no chance of winning. Of course it is a gamble but presumably a gamble worth taking.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well let's check the petition in the morning shall we. 143,000 signatures at the moment.
> 
> Sturgeon better stake her career on the Referendum and step down when she loses if it gets given the go ahead from Parliament. Oh didn't you know both houses of Parliament have to vote on it first, so it won't just be TM blocking it. But I think the Scottish people might end up blocking it themselves.


Yes, 143,000 does sound a lot. So does 16+ million!

If the people of Scotland do block it, they have more of a right to do so than May over 300miles away.

I, for one, would respect that as the Scottish people will have spoken for themselves, not spoken for by May and her government.


----------



## KittenKong

Britain's Brexit Bonanza in jobs reports the London Evening Standard.

Both local NE BBC and ITV News report a rise in jobless figures in the last quarter however!

http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2017-03-15/unemployment-rises-to-88-000-in-north-east/


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes, 143,000 does sound a lot. *So does 16+ million*!


So does 17.4+ million but yet again you choose to ignore them like the 16+ million did for 40+ years. Now the 17.4+ million get there say the 16+ million don't like it.

Did you know that 1,018,322 leave voters were from Scotland and 349,442 were from Northern Ireland: http://www.electoralcommission.org....u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> they have more of a right to do so than May over 300miles away.


It won't be just May blocking it as it transitions through the UK Houses of Parliament though will it as the whole of Parliament (House of Commons and House of Lord's) get to vote on it Welsh and Northern Irish MP's do as well as Scottish and English MP's and Lord's from all over the UK (this is why they call it the UK Parliament) before the Queen has to give Royal Assent to make the Scottish indyref2 law. But if indyref2 is rejected by Parliament (not May) then that's it, it's over.

I don't understand why Crankie can't wait until after Brexit as Scotland will be out of the EU anyway? Also Crankie didn't promise in her speech to keep Scotland in the EU did she. Oh it might be to do with the fact Scotland as an independent country isn't in the EU but the UK as a whole is. She also didn't promise to keep Scotland in the UK single market either. Crankie is hell-bent on destroying Scotland financially as well with indyref2 and isolating Scotland.


----------



## noushka05

Finally a good result! Thank you people of Holland for rejecting populism & fascism.

Well said 94 year old war veteran Harry Leslie Smith.

*Harry Leslie Smith*‏Verified [email protected]*Harryslaststand* 11h11 hours ago

_It looks like __#_*Netherlands*_ will hold to its tradition of tolerance & civilisation in __#_*DutchElection*_. 
Thank-you for keeping hope alive in EU_

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Finally a good result! Thank you people of Holland for rejecting populism & fascism.
> 
> Well said 94 year old war veteran Harry Leslie Smith.
> 
> *Harry Leslie Smith*‏Verified [email protected]*Harryslaststand* 11h11 hours ago
> 
> _It looks like __#_*Netherlands*_ will hold to its tradition of tolerance & civilisation in __#_*DutchElection*_.
> Thank-you for keeping hope alive in EU_
> 
> .


Good for them. Not really bothered to be honest.

The UK is still leaving the EU 

The UK is just waiting for the Queen to sign the Article 50 bill to make it law and May to trigger it within the next two weeks.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> Not really bothered to be honest.
> 
> The UK is still leaving the EU


I hadn't realised leaving the EU would mean world trends and events will have no further impact on us.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Good for them.
> The UK is still leaving the EU
> The UK is just waiting for the Queen to sign the Article 50 bill to enshrined it in UK law and May to trigger it in less than two weeks.


Good for all of us. God help us all if right wing populism continues to gain ground.

Yes we are. Even though David Davis admitted they haven't even done an economic assessment of crashing out of the EU with no deal. What could possibly go wrong

As someone said: dangerous, incompetent, arrogant, reckless - and predictable!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-leave-no-deal-select-committee-a7630626.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> As someone said: *dangerous, incompetent, arrogant, reckless - and predictable*!


Describes Sturgeon down to a T


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Good for them. Not really bothered to be honest.
> 
> The UK is still leaving the EU
> 
> The UK is just waiting for the Queen to sign the Article 50 bill to make it law and May to trigger it within the next two weeks.


Do you realise that you too are in the same boat and could be affected by it?
Customer spending was funded by rising household debts..obviously cannot go forever...
People simply were getting rid of pounds before full effect of weak pound reflects in prices.

Any doubts how British economy is rated: Look how pound is doing...

Ireland is flooded with more authorization applications from banks ect...than they can process!!!

It looks like up to 70 000 jobs might be moving from the City.

Without the City England is bust.
Simples.

Dublin is rising. The luck of the Irish.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Without the City England is bust.
> Simples.


Well the City of London isn't going anywhere. Don't know what makes you think it is?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Describes Sturgeon down to a T


Hardly. Love her or loathe her Sturgeon is one smart lady.

"Sod the buffoons of brexit"


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Well the City of London isn't going anywhere. Don't know what makes you think it is?


I can read .Do you understand that Britain leaving with no deal makes passporting financial services for all 27 EU countries impossible?

So they have to move at least part of their operations to EU.
But some want to move more than EU part...lots of foreigners, immigrants work in financial sector.
Guess why they are happy to go?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Well the City of London isn't going anywhere. Don't know what makes you think it is?


----------



## Goblin

Interest stockwellcat mentioned polls. I take it these are the same sorts of polls that he quoted previously, you know the ones that showed wilders would "win" in the netherlands to prove what a crumbling edifice the EU was. Instead pro EU parties were strongly supported and there was a rejection of the xenophobia and nationalist movement of popularism. Again same result as Austria.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Britain's Brexit Bonanza in jobs reports the London Evening Standard.
> 
> Both local NE BBC and ITV News report a rise in jobless figures in the last quarter however!
> 
> http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2017-03-15/unemployment-rises-to-88-000-in-north-east/
> 
> View attachment 303321
> View attachment 303322
> View attachment 303323
> View attachment 303324
> View attachment 303325
> View attachment 303326





KittenKong said:


> View attachment 303331
> View attachment 303332
> View attachment 303333


And you thought the Sun printed drivel

I can't remember the last time I saw such rubbish ........oh yes I can........in that expensive campaign leaflet to try and get us to vote in


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well let's check the petition in the morning shall we. 143,000 signatures at the moment.
> 
> Sturgeon better stake her career on the Referendum and step down when she loses if it gets given the go ahead from Parliament. Oh didn't you know both houses of Parliament have to vote on it first, so it won't just be TM blocking it. But I think the Scottish people might end up blocking it themselves.


You should read this - How Nicola Sturgeon somehow created a check & balance from constitutional thin air. (What a smart lady. If only our shambolic PM was half as astute - & principled!)


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Interest stockwellcat mentioned polls. I take it these are the same sorts of polls that he quoted previously, you know the ones that showed wilders would "win" in the netherlands to prove what a crumbling edifice the EU was. Instead pro EU parties were strongly supported and there was a rejection of the xenophobia and nationalist movement of popularism. Again same result as Austria.


I really don't think it's pro EU but anti far right.

We in this country have never voted in a far right government. In fact our present government is as concerned as anyone else 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...vertising-giant-as-it-fights-far-right-threat


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> You should read this - How Nicola Sturgeon somehow created a check & balance from constitutional thin air. (What a smart lady. If only our shambolic PM was half as astute - & principled!)
> 
> View attachment 303348


Definitely that exposed thinly veiled fact that Scotland is ruled from Westminster by PM they did not elect..
Has no equal status , ever much like in Soviet Union all other republics were ruled by Kremlin.
NS does not want to be a puppet.

I have no idea what Scotland might decide but I am sure they have rights to make that decision.

Well...if you think that giving people referendums knowing how badly populism might affect the outcome is bad idea....
I understand that point....but too late now?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I really don't think it's pro EU but anti far right.
> 
> We in this country have never voted in a far right government. In fact our present government is as concerned as anyone else
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...vertising-giant-as-it-fights-far-right-threat


Oh...but our government turned into UKiP.....all policies are there!!!!
Now UKiP complains that there is no more far right that is feasible to go to?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I really don't think it's pro EU but anti far right.
> 
> *We in this country have never voted in a far right government. In fact our present government is as concerned as anyone else*
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...vertising-giant-as-it-fights-far-right-threat


:Hilarious:Hilarious

You cant put a match between ukip & the tory party anymore.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> in that expensive campaign leaflet to try and get us to vote in


Ah yes, @rona...the one that ***allegedly*** (sniggers) cost only _34p per household_, including postage, printing, delivery, advertising and sundry overheads, admin etc. Haha!! Yes, that one. What a bargain.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> Ah yes, @rona...the one that ***allegedly*** (sniggers) cost only _34p per household_, including postage, printing, delivery, advertising and sundry overheads, admin etc. Haha!! Yes, that one.


This booklet you mean @rona @Calvine 








The Government at the time of the referendum being the Conservatives who happen to be the same party in power today.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Definitely that exposed thinly veiled fact that Scotland is ruled from Westminster by PM they did not elect..
> Has no equal status , ever much like in Soviet Union all other republics were ruled by Kremlin.
> NS does not want to be a puppet.
> 
> I have no idea what Scotland might decide but I am sure they have rights to make that decision.
> 
> Well...if you think that giving people referendums knowing how badly populism might affect the outcome is bad idea....
> I understand that point....but too late now?


Absolutely. And like us up't north, the Scottish are treated like second class citizens. If they don't get out now they will be subjected to possibly decades of tory rule. They have nothing to lose & everything to gain by breaking free of Westmonster. They have chance to save their NHS, take back their land, stay in the EU - & watch us sink!


----------



## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> I have no idea what Scotland might decide but I am sure they have rights to make that decision.


I do feel they will gain the right to decide. You can't bang on about 'the will of the people' and then deny whole chunks of the population any say.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I really don't think it's pro EU but anti far right.


Fact is those who campaign against the EU do so on a base of "immigrants" and nationalism (popularism in general looking at the states). Those parties who did well did so by not shying away from adopting a pro-EU stance.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I said late last night @KittenKong I would come back to this this morning and I see the amount of people in Scotland that have signed the petition has steadily risen:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642

Here's the map and on it you will see that it is Scottish people signing this petition:
http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=180642

You will notice hardly anyone in England, Wales and Northern Ireland have signed the petition as it is aimed at the Scots:


> We in Scotland are fed up of persecution by the SNP leader who is solely intent on getting independence at any cost. As a result, Scotland is suffering hugely.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> This booklet you mean @rona @Calvine
> View attachment 303349
> 
> The Government at the time of the referendum being the Conservatives who happen to be the same party in power today.


That's the one, @stockwellcat...the one that most people sent back to either a) Downing Street or, preferably, b) Conservative Hq (as they have a _FREEPOST_ address).


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Ah yes, @rona...the one that ***allegedly*** (sniggers) cost only _34p per household_, including postage, printing, delivery, advertising and sundry overheads, admin etc. Haha!! Yes, that one. What a bargain.


A drop in the ocean compared to colossal £60/100 billion Hammonds putting away to prop up the economy when it all goes pear shaped. How many doctors?, nurses?, hospitals? could we pay for with that?


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> A drop in the ocean


You are missing the point...it is clear as the nose on your face that the propaganda leaflet cost *far more than 34p per household*. It would cost more than that for a few manky business cards.


----------



## havoc

Economies of scale maybe?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> . Crankie is hell-bent on destroying Scotland financially as well with indyref2 and isolating Scotland.


.....Just as hell bent May is on destroying the UK financially and isolating the UK from Europe?

At least Sturgeon is committed to the single market.


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> You are missing the point...it is clear as the nose on your face that the propaganda leaflet cost *far more than 34p per household*. It would cost more than that for a few manky business cards.


And yet leaving the EU will cost the average person far more in the long term. That's the bottom line.

Back to the point. Why is leaving the EU so great.. erm, no real reason. What has this government done to properly prepare the UK and it's population for the problems encountered leaving.. erm, nothing really. What have the side effects been from the referendum.. democracy has gone out the window in favor of bowing down to a minority of the country.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> And yet leaving the EU will cost the average person far more in the long term. That's the bottom line.
> 
> Back to the point. Why is leaving the EU so great.. erm, no real reason. What has this government done to properly prepare the UK and it's population for the problems encountered leaving.. erm, nothing really. What have the side effects been from the referendum.. democracy has gone out the window in favor of bowing down to a minority of the country.


You and Noushka05 both missed my point...maybe deliberately?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> You are missing the point...it is clear as the nose on your face that the propaganda leaflet cost *far more than 34p per household*. It would cost more than that for a few manky business cards.


As a very strong pro EU supporter I found the leaflet embarrassing.

Still, we only got the one, plus one for remain and another from our pro remain MP.

In contrast we lost count of the Leave campaign literature we received through our letter box, seemed to come every other day, then that dreadful 4-page DUP wraparound in the Metro free paper.

I wonder what the total amount was spent on all that? Quite a lot I would imagine.....


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> You and Noushka05 both missed my point.


No, I didn't simply highlighted the only thing leavers can do is point to faults in the politicians leave campaign rather than the core issues such as the UK is not going to be better off. The average person will not be better off. The government is doing nothing to prepare the population for what is really coming pretending it's all okay when they haven't even thought about what if's adequately.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> the Leave campaign literature we received through our letter box,


I received one flyer.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> No, I didn't


You clearly did.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> At least Sturgeon is committed to the single market.


And leaving the UK single market and joining the queue to join the EU (which they will be at the back of as EU leaders have repeatedly said) which the Scots will have to pay membership for and a joining fee before they get access to anything including single market and even the EEA route costs money as well. Don't forget hard borders with England, Northern Ireland, Wales and the rest of Europe initially until they get membership of EEA or the EU.

Scotland all of a sudden looks very isolated by itself with no financial help from the UK and no help from the EU or EEA or not being a member of NATO:









Don't forget as well the Shetland Islands have threatened to leave Scotland if Crankie goes ahead with this Independence referendum so Scotland will break up to. The Shetland Islands want to remain in the UK and said they made there voices heard in 2014 and do not want a rerun of the Scottish Referendum (Indyref2). As a result of Scottish independence the Shetland Islands have voted to become independent themselves.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> And leaving the UK single market and joining the queue to join the EU (which they will be at the back of as EU leaders have repeatedly said) which the Scots will have to pay membership for and a joining fee before they get access to anything including single market and even the EEA route costs money as well. Don't forget hard borders with England, Northern Ireland, Wales and the rest of Europe initially until they get membership of EEA or the EU.


It's still their choice - or should be. That's the situation as you see it today. Things are in such a state of change it will be different in the future - how exactly I don't know (I seem to be the only person on here who hasn't been given a crystal ball) but it will be different.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> And leaving the UK single market and joining the queue to join the EU


Do not think the EU is allowing any more applications to begin with. It's stupid but then so is the UK leaving the EU. It's just the same arguments and the same principles only the UK had a lot more say in the EU than the scots have in the UK. The EU allow for democracy where the UK government imposes.. Think about that whilst remembering the leave slogan of "take back control".

As for isolated.. Image shows the trade deals the UK will have when they leave the EU, highlighted in red. That's until we negotiate new ones based on market access.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Do not think the EU is allowing any more applications to begin with. It's stupid but then so is the UK leaving the EU. It's just the same arguments and the same principles only the UK had a lot more say in the EU than the scots have in the UK. The EU allow for democracy where the UK government imposes.. Think about that whilst remembering the leave slogan of "take back control".
> 
> As for isolated.. Image shows the trade deals the UK will have when they leave the EU, highlighted in red. That's until we negotiate new ones based on market access.
> 
> View attachment 303357


And the UK includes Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar. So that red dot is inaccurate as you forgot to colour in Gibraltar and Northern Ireland. The UK will still be trading with the EU as well like it or not either with or without a deal (it's called being a member of the The World Trade Organization which Scotland is not a member of or is Gibraltar and Northern Ireland as they are collectively known as being part of the UK). So what you are trying to portray is factually incorrect.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> And the UK includes Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar. So that red dot is inaccurate as you forgot to colour in Gibraltar and Northern Ireland.


Let's see, trade is always possible. The United Kingdom is a member of the WTO as a complete entity.. is that still the case if the UK no longer exists as that same entity? Shame on that image NI is coloured isn't it. Gibraltar, well looks like the UK is abandoning them. Oops. So your niggle is factually incorrect.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> You are missing the point...it is clear as the nose on your face that the propaganda leaflet cost *far more than 34p per household*. It would cost more than that for a few manky business cards.


I get your point - and I accept its quite likely it did cost more. What I don't get is why you are so concerned about the cost of the leaflet yet seemingly unconcerned brexit will mean the majority will be _noticeably_ worse off financially. The environment - the air we breathe will be more polluted. The rich will get richer & lower taxes for corporations will mean less money for our already crumbling NHS, for schools, for public services. This is just some of the costs of brexit - I suspect the cost of the leaflet will seem insignificant even to you soon.


----------



## noushka05

Looks as though there's going to be a fresh House of Lords challenge for the government. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017/03/16/the-waugh-zone-march-16-2_0_n_15400126.html?1489654817


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Let's see, trade is always possible. The United Kingdom is a member of the WTO as a complete entity.. is that still the case if the UK no longer exists as that same entity? Shame on that image NI is coloured isn't it. Gibraltar, well looks like the UK is abandoning them. Oops. So your niggle is factually incorrect.


The UK will still be known as the UK when it leaves. But factually as it stands at this moment in time I am factually correct. Scotland may not get there Referendum as article 30 may not pass through both houses of the UK Parliament whom they have to get permission from to hold a referendum or if they do get article 30 through the Scots may vote against it again. Gibraltar is a crown estate asset, island owned by the crown like Isle of Man, Jersey, Shetland Islands, Orkney Islands, the Channel Islands and the Falklands. I don't have a time machine or crystal ball so cannot say what will happen with Gibraltar but it isn't for sale or for giving up to Spain.


----------



## Goblin

And if Scotland did leave, it would still be Scotland just with power to determine it's own future instead of being dictated to. It would have access to other countries and the ability to choose it's own relationships and treaties. As already said, the same arguments for the UK leaving the EU and Scotland leaving the UK are essentially similar. Unlike some however I feel being together is a stronger position and is mutually beneficial.

Edit:






Interesting May's response acknowledges the UK has lost it's 5th ranking in the global economy since Brexit.


----------



## noushka05

Will brexit eventually force Wales to break away too?.


----------



## Goblin

Some people are also now pointing out that the government may not actually be legally legitimate due to the possibility of electoral fraud. As such the UK government could be in breach of Article 50 which states that the Member State triggering must follow its own constitutional rules for any decision made on leaving the Union if it attempted to hand it in. No idea how soon this electoral fraud issue could be cleared and if it really has any basis. Interesting one though.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I received one flyer.


Interesting. I see you're in London where perhaps they didn't expect to win so didn't waste their time where you are.

Pretty obvious they were focusing in areas where they had a better chance of winning. This region for example has a very high Sun readership....

By saying Leave campaign I'm including UKIP's as well as the "official" Vote Leave leaflets.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> But nobody gives a flying fart what Krankie has to say. She is a nobody. Even when the Scottish Nazi Party had a majority, she represented fewer people than does the Mayor of London for example. Now that bunch have lost their majority why oh why does anybody give her any attention? She matters not one jot, though she can be an irritant. Kind of like a mosquito and best dealt with the same way.


What an incredibly disrespectful post to both Scotland and Ms Sturgeon.


----------



## leashedForLife

QUOTE, noushka05:

:Hilarious

You can't put a *match* between UKIP & the Tory party anymore.

/QUOTE
.
.
true - because they'd both *go up in flames! ... *
*.*
*.*
*.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

12:52, UK, Thursday 16 March 2017

*Brexit bill to trigger Article 50 gets royal assent from Queen*

The Prime Minister is free to officially notify the EU that the UK intends to leave after the Queen granted the Brexit bill royal assent.

http://news.sky.com/story/queen-prepares-to-sign-brexit-bill-into-british-history-10803211


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> And the UK includes Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar. So that red dot is inaccurate as you forgot to colour in Gibraltar and Northern Ireland. The UK will still be trading with the EU as well like it or not either with or without a deal (it's called being a member of the The World Trade Organization which Scotland is not a member of or is Gibraltar and Northern Ireland as they are collectively known as being part of the UK). So what you are trying to portray is factually incorrect.


You forgot that TM gave no guarantee that Gibraltar stays British., so it will be used to get deal with Spain.
No longer British most likely. TM cares very little about what Gibraltar needs or wants.
Northern Ireland might join Ireland and automatically join EU.

Spain is up to their ears in debts and they change their mind quite easily , what they promise cannot be taken seriously. Neither their stand on Scotland joining EU.

Scotland might lose access to England & Wales but gain to 27 other countries?
 Then build the wall to keep illegals away.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> You forgot that TM gave no guarantee that Gibraltar stays British., so it will be used to get deal with Spain.
> No longer British most likely. TM cares very little about what Gibraltar needs or wants.
> Northern Ireland might join Ireland and automatically join EU.
> 
> Spain is up to their ears in debts and they change their mind quite easily , what they promise cannot be taken seriously. Neither their stand on Scotland joining EU.
> 
> Scotland might lose access to England & Wales but gain to 27 other countries?
> Then build the wall to keep illegals away.


TM has told Sturgeon now is not the time for a Scottish Independence Referendum and has told Sturgeon she can't have a Scottish Independence Referendum before Spring of 2019.

*PM tells Sturgeon 'now is not the time' for Scottish independence referendum*

http://news.sky.com/story/pm-tells-...for-scottish-independence-referendum-10803625


> Theresa May has refused to agree to a second Scottish referendum before spring 2019, telling Nicola Sturgeon "now is not the time".
> 
> The Prime Minister says she will not start discussions with the First Minister on her proposals to hold a second independence vote when she is about to begin Brexit negotiations.
> 
> Mrs May said it would "not be fair" to expect the Scottish people when they did not know what the future partnership with the UK would be or "what an independent Scotland would look like".


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> You forgot


I apologise, with alot on my plate at the moment I do tend to forget things


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
I'm not sure the Scots are all that concerned about _"what an independent Scotland would look like"_. I think they are far-more worried about being attached to the UK when the UK severs all the EU-commitments "for" the Scots, Wales, & N.I.
They want to remain *in* the EU - or at least, more want to remain EU-members than want to leave - & if the UK does the choosing FOR them, they will be out with no recourse.
.
Deciding on what "_an independent Scotland" _might be, is a less-urgent discussion. Being unable to speak for themselves as the UK slashes its EU ties is critical.
.
.
.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> why you are so concerned about the cost of the leaflet


I replied to a previous post which had made specific reference to the leaflet...it was, in fact, mentioned before I made any comment about it. That is what one does on a forum: one replies to previous posts or comments on them; or so I thought.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Interesting. I see you're in London where perhaps they didn't expect to win so didn't waste their time
> 
> That was my guess too.


----------



## Goblin

How does May keep a straight face? When talking about the Scottish referendum:

"wouldn't be fair to the people of Scotland... being asked to make a crucial decision without the necessary information".. what like the EU referendum.
"without knowing what the future partnership would be or what the path of an independent Scotland would look like".. what like the EU referendum.

How about providing some of that information to the rest of the UK about Brexit.. oh I forgot, you aren't ready.


----------



## cheekyscrip

One is sure: The New Britain is ruled by hypocrites.

This arrogance and simple bullying might actually have the opposite effects....


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> What an incredibly disrespectful post to both Scotland and Ms Sturgeon.


Absolutely. It's this kind of arrogance and insulting behaviour shown by May and from some here that could well backfire on them very badly.

Respect has to be earned, not demanded....


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> This arrogance and simple bullying might actually have the opposite effects....


Bullying may be seen as a form of strength for some, but as we've seen from school and the work place bullies are pathetic and only resort to this to make themselves feel better by undermining others.

What goes around comes around is all I can say.


----------



## 1290423

3dogs2cats said:


> I should imagine she is well aware her political career is at stake. She is unlikely to call for a referendum if she thought she had no chance of winning. Of course it is a gamble but presumably a gamble worth taking.


But this is personal, she has dreamed of independence since she was 13 years of age, said so herself


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> But this is personal, she has dreamed of independence since she was 13 years of age, said so herself


She does remind me of someone else in Scottish history who wanted Scottish Independence.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
"some people" also believe that DJT is a lucid, rational, well-informed man - & doing a wonderful job as POTUS. 
.
"some people" believe no American spacecraft ever landed on our moon. // "some ppl" believed that an infant born _"with a tattoo of an anchor & the letters USN on his forearm"_ was 'proof of reincarnation'. [National Enquirer, circa 1980 - 81.]
.
"some ppl" are daft. Some are not. Personally, i don't think anyone is a 'reincarnation of Braveheart'. I do, however, think Ms Sturgeon is understandably worried for her country's future, & angry that their citizens are denied an opportunity to DECIDE on that future for themselves.
.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> She does remind me of someone else in Scottish history who wanted Scottish Independence.
> View attachment 303402
> 
> View attachment 303404
> 
> View attachment 303399


Scotland was betrayed many, many times .
Yes, I see the resemblance.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Did you know that 1,018,322 leave voters were from Scotland and 349,442 were from Northern Ireland:]


Roughly represents about 32% of the Scots that voted I would imagine.

165,000 signing the petition against Indyref 2 is nowhere near that figure!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> 165,000 signing the petition against Indyref 2 *is nowhere near that figure!*


Yet.  This figure is still going up though


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> The UK is still leaving the EU
> .


Just makes the UK look more stupid for doing so doesn't it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Just makes the UK look more stupid for doing so doesn't it.


Why? We'll still be trading with the EU regardless and free to make trade deals of our own. The ex-head of the World Trade Organisation said today it would be in the interests of both the UK and the EU to make a trade deal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/39295257


> "Anything that has a cost for the UK has a cost for the continent," said Mr Lamy at an Institute for Government event in London on Thursday.





> *A trade deal in goods could be simple if the UK simply adopts existing EU tariffs* *and quotas* said Mr Lamy, although eliminating tariffs entirely, as some economists who back a Leave vote last year have suggested, is not politically realistic.


I and 17.4+ million other people that voted leave don't think the UK looks stupid.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Why?.....
> 
> I and 17.4+ million other people that voted leave don't think the UK looks stupid.


Because the far right believed the UK needed to leave what they called a sinking ship. The result today in Holland has only strengthened the EU and of course the Euro.

Yes, I wouldn't expect you and many of the 17m others would agree, but I'm sure many of them will regret it when Brexit hits them hard, not forgetting the illusion the industries of old and the "good old days" will return.


----------



## KittenKong

And with Sinn Fein making noises and possibly Plaid Cymru too May's gonna have more than a headache.

Not forgetting those in England too with the concerns about leaving the single market.

This is before she even attempts to dictate to, sorry negotiate with the 27 other nations!!!

May's brought this on herself.


----------



## cheekyscrip

There is a silver lining for Poles, no longer welcomed in UK...








Head hunters already trying to scout Polish workforce to come back to Poland...
Fewer EU immigrants in UK then...


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Honeys mum

'Buy British' button could let online shoppers filter out foreign groceries 

A good idea for people who shop on line.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> If one is old enough to vote, one is old enough to make an_ informed _decision surely; not just believe whatever the spin is. And if people can't be bothered to get off their arses and vote, or vote for Brexit ''for a laugh'', or vote for the ''side'' which appears to be winning, then it's their own tough luck. There was no doubt misinformation and lies from both ''sides''...there always is in politics. It is up to the voter to trawl thro' it. Otherwise, withhold your vote. ''People should be allowed to change their minds''..? How many times I wonder?


And herein lies the problem - people were not informed. So age makes no difference at all. Every reason the leave campaign gave for voting out is a proven lie. We have been drip fed anti-EU stories for years yet rarely heard of all the positive things the EU does for us. This is not being informed. We should have a proper debate & if people want to, they should then have the option to change their minds - or not. This is what a true democracy would do.



Honeys mum said:


> I have no need to Noush, reason being, as I have qouted many times before. I didn't decide which way to vote because of what the newsapers said, or in fact anyone else either. I made up my own mind and will not be changing it, whatever happens.
> Just for the record, I don't read the Sun, wouldn't have that aper in my house, to my knowledge i have never qouted anything that came from the Sun.We only have the Express because my OH likes it for the sport.
> 
> Totally agree with you on that Calvine.


That's where you & I differ. Prior to the referendum I didn't know which way to vote - I had an open mind. I only wanted to do the best thing for the country, the best thing for the environment, so I tried to find out as much as I could before I made such an important decision.

The Express is as bad as the Sun. A racist, xenophobic propagandist rag, not a free press - it is an enemy of democracy. http://www.sub-scribe2015.co.uk/whitetops-immigration.html#.WMuEM4XXLIW


----------



## noushka05

I think this hits the nail on the head

*Just imagine Brussels had told the UK that they are not allowed to have a referendum.
That's the difference between Scotland's 'two Unions.'*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I think this hits the nail on the head
> 
> *Just imagine Brussels had told the UK that they are not allowed to have a referendum.
> That's the difference between Scotland's 'two Unions.'*


*The Scots haven't been told they can't have one, they have been told not right now. They can't have one before Spring 2019.*

What's wrong with waiting until then because they'd be coming out of the EU anyway. Also they don't know what trade deal is on offer from the EU for the UK, you never know they might like it.

Also Scotland have been told that they will not be able to have membership with the EU when they leave the UK, they'd have to join like any other country this includes a Norway Type deal or the EEA and then she has to negotiate a deal with the UK to retain access to the UK single market. What's the rush to become isolated which Sturgeon is intent on making Scotland?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> The Scots haven't been told they can't have one, they have been told not right now. They can't have one before Spring 2019.
> 
> What's wrong with waiting until then because they'd be coming out of the EU anyway. Also they don't know what trade deal is on offer from the EU for the UK, you never know they might like it.


Obviously no referendum should be given unless people know what trade deals they would have?
You say so?

Just give them as much information as you had voting out?

Else tell us all the deals you know?

Here in Gibraltar we would be very glad to know anything about our future?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Here in Gibraltar we would be very glad to know anything about our future?


Sorry I don't possess one of these:


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> The Scots haven't been told they can't have one, they have been told not right now. They can't have one before Spring 2019.
> 
> What's wrong with waiting until then because they'd be coming out of the EU anyway. Also they don't know what trade deal is on offer from the EU for the UK, you never know they might like it.


They want to wait - they want the Scottish people to be able to make an informed decision. And May should accept the SNPs timetable.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Obviously no referendum should be given unless people know what trade deals they would have?


Well wouldn't it make more sense to see what the EU are going to offer the UK before Scotland wants to make the decision to leave?

May has vetoed the Second Scottish Independence Referendum anyway until after Spring 2019.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> They want to wait - they want the Scottish people to be able to make an informed decision. And May should accept the SNPs timetable.


It's been *vetoed* by the PM so there  They'll have to wait until spring 2019.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> It's been *vetoed* by the PM so there  They'll have to wait until spring 2019.


And this authoritarian attitude doesn't concern you at all? Scotland voted remain, why should they be dragged out of the EU without a say?

What a fantastic politician Nicola Sturgeon is, serving the Scottish peoples best interests - If only our dishonest, selfserving PM would take a leaf out of her book.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> so I tried to find out as much as I could before I made such an important decision.


Are you suggesting that I didn't noush.? I would hope that most people did just that, including me.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I wish TM had the same conviction for UK as Nicola does for Scotland.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> And this authoritarian attitude doesn't concern you at all? Scotland voted remain, why should they be dragged out of the EU without a say?
> 
> What a fantastic politician Nicola Sturgeon is, serving the Scottish peoples best interests - If only our dishonest, selfserving PM would take a leaf out of her book.


You could have put a content warning on at least.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Are you suggesting that I didn't noush.? I would hope that most people did just that, including me.


I can only go by your posts on here & the links you provide.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> You could have put a content warning on at least.


I think you secretly admire her


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> And this authoritarian attitude doesn't concern you at all? Scotland voted remain, why should they be dragged out of the EU without a say?
> 
> What a fantastic politician Nicola Sturgeon is, serving the Scottish peoples best interests - If only our dishonest, selfserving PM would take a leaf out of her book.


Scotland aren't in the EU as a country the UK as a whole is so Scotland is not being dragged out of the EU. They won't be a member of the EU if they voted for there Independence from the UK or a member of the UK, EEA or Single Market. It's a clever lie that Sturgeon has fabricated saying that Scotland is being dragged out of the EU as Scotland as a country is not a member of the EU as they aren't an independent country. Scotland have been repeatedly told by EU leaders that they wouldn't be able to stay in the EU if Scotland left the UK and would be at the back of the queue of countries to be considered for EU membership that's before they can apply to become members.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> I can only go by your posts on here & the links you provide.


Ditto


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I can only go by your posts on here & the links you provide.


And your endless posts of newspaper articles claiming they are facts (@noushka05) 

But ditto on what you said above though.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Ditto


Absolutely.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


> Are you suggesting that I didn't noush.? *I would hope that most people did just that, *including me.


You would hope so, but I doubt it, lots of people just voted out because they believed all the lies we have been told by the press over the years like stright bananas, utter rubbish but people believe it,they have never bothered to look into all the good that has come out of the EU. 
Most of the sillyness we heard have been lies, most of the good things that have happened have never been reported.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> And your endless posts of newspaper articles claiming they are facts (@noushka05)
> 
> But ditto on what you said above though.


Then counter them  You could begin with my previous post.


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Here in Gibraltar we would be very glad to know anything about our future?[
> 
> I'm sure we all would cheekyscrip, but unfortunately no one can predict the future.
> Except this man , and he is no longer around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nostradamus.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> View attachment 303462





noushka05 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> View attachment 303462


What's the newspaper source?


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> And this authoritarian attitude doesn't concern you at all? Scotland voted remain, why should they be dragged out of the EU without a say?
> 
> What a fantastic politician Nicola Sturgeon is, serving the Scottish peoples best interests - If only our dishonest, selfserving PM would take a leaf out of her book.


Seconded.

Some of the disrespect shown towards Scotland and its people on this forum is incredible.

One thing Sturgeon has that May seriously lacks is people skills.

Funny how some of the comments here seem to be directly from the right wing media!


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Here in Gibraltar we would be very glad to know anything about our future?


Sorry the first one didn't come up right.
i'm sure we all would cheekyscrip, but no one can predict the future.
Except this man, and he is no longer around.







Nostradamus


----------



## Happy Paws2

But the EU has told Scotland that they meet all the criteria they need to join and entry would take that long.


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> But the EU has told Scotland that they meet all the criteria they need to join and entry would take that long.


*Brexit: Independent Scotland would have to 'join back of the queue' for EU membership*

Nation's application would not be considered ahead of those already submitted by Montenegro, Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, says European Commission official.

An independent Scotland would join a queue of would-be EU members, a senior European official has said.

Jacqueline Minor, the head of representation for the European Commission in the UK, said if Scotland became independent and wanted to join the EU it would be added to the list of candidate countries including Montenegro, Serbia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Speaking at a Scottish Parliamentary Journalists' Association event in Edinburgh, she said: "Were Scotland to become independent, they would join that list."

She added though that it might be easier for Scotland to meet membership criteria such as democracy, rule of law, anti-corruption and protection of minorities than other candidates.

Ms Minor also poured cold water on Scotland's ability to secure a special deal in Brexit negotiations.

The Scottish government argues the country, which had a majority of remain voters in the EU referendum unlike the UK, should be in line for a differentiated deal after the UK Government's move for special deals for the car industry.

Ms Minor said: "The negotiations will be with the United Kingdom and that means essentially the Westminster Government.

"The first question is will the Westminster Government argue in favour of a differentiated arrangement, and it seems to me that at present they are not suggesting that they will.

"Should they do so, should they change their mind, then the other members states would have to look at that. I have to say that there is no precedent whereby a free trade agreement has distinguished between significant regions of the partner country."

Labour and the Conservatives have said the SNP should "be honest" with voters about an independent Scotland's membership of the EU.

Scottish Conservative constitution spokesman Adam Tomkins said: "This is a senior figure telling the SNP what it needs to hear.

"For all its moaning about Brexit, it knows fine well an independent Scotland would not simply step into the European Union. Not only would it join the back of the queue, but we now learn it may have to adopt the euro and tackle an eye-watering deficit.

"It's time for the nationalists to be honest about Brexit and stop using it as a tool to agitate for separation."

Scottish Labour's Europe spokesman Lewis Macdonald said: "This is a hugely significant intervention from an experienced and respected official.

"As the SNP was repeatedly told during the 2014 independence referendum campaign, an independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU like any other country.

"Alex Salmond tried to dismiss this, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Now it's time for the SNP to be honest with voters - an independent Scotland would have to join the queue."

The Scottish Greens' external affairs spokesman Ross Greer said: "There are five million EU citizens living in Scotland, it's unthinkable that they will be told to join the back of a mythical queue.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-independent-scotland-union-eu-membership-back-queue-jacqueline-minor-european-commission-a7572956.html?amp


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> *Brexit: Independent Scotland would have to 'join back of the queue' for EU membership*
> 
> Nation's application would not be considered ahead of those already submitted by Montenegro, Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, says European Commission official.
> 
> Not according to an EU official on the TV yesterday, he said they were over half way there and membership wouldn't be a problem they would have to wait that long.


Not according to an EU official on the TV yesterday, he said they were over half way there and membership wouldn't be a problem they would have to wait that long


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Queen backs destroying UK meme


Not influenced by media I believe you said. Your memes suggest the opposite. Facts are Queen doesn't back either side. She is simply following the constitutional process. Try again using something factual.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Point is the EU will be in no rush to make Scotland a member of the EU as other countries have applied to join before them. Why should Scotland jump the queue for membership of the EU?

Scotland would have to apply like any other country has to and them wait.


----------



## Goblin

Why should the UK leave the EU? Let's face it, unless they are stupid Scotland wouldn't leave.. reminds me of the UK and EU though there. All the arguments May is coming out with to prevent the referendum can be said of the EU referendum. It would be hillarious if it wasn't going to affect so many.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> *Why should the UK leave the EU?* Let's face it, unless they are stupid Scotland wouldn't leave.. reminds me of the UK and EU though there. All the arguments May is coming out with to prevent the referendum can be said of the EU referendum. It would be hillarious if it wasn't going to affect so many.


Because the EU treaties state that if a country wishes to leave they can. It says so in there own treaties. The UK as a whole voted to leave. Get over it. It's not stupid. It makes perfect sense to leave a corrupt and unaccountable club.


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> Try again using something factual


I don't have to prove myself to you, but just to prove you wrong.

John Bercow announces Article 50 paper has been signed by the Queen - YouTube


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> Facts are Queen doesn't back either side.


Where in my post did I say she did. I just posted that to show that she had passed Article 50.


----------



## Honeys mum

Here some more news from the Express.

Brexit will bring 'new GOLDEN ERA for London', says report | UK | News | Express.co.uk


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant, well said Nicola.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Where in my post did I say she did. I just posted that to show that she had passed Article 50.


Maybe you should actually read what you post then. Lots of difference between passing and backing.



Honeys mum said:


> Here some more news from the Express.


Oh the express again with their pet expert.

FTSE 100 which is made up of multinational foreign firms investing in the global economy, not the UK. Employment rising as it is elsewhere with a strong global economy. Money on upgrading a plant, no details on what they are upgrading (robots replacing workers?) while jobs are being lost in the city.

Maybe you should examine what WTO rules would do to the auto industry and how jobs will be lost, moving to the EU. Government will not be able to sweeten deals with Nissan/Toyota etc as that would break the WTO rules.

And the scary TTIP with the EU-US trade deal. The same trade deal which the EU refused to accept due to TTIP despite the fact the UK government were perfectly happy with it. So what will happen when negotiating an individual deal with the US?

And you count this paper as a credible source...


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Because the EU treaties state that if a country wishes to leave they can. It says so in there own treaties. The UK as a whole voted to leave. Get over it. It's not stupid. It makes perfect sense to leave a corrupt and unaccountable club.


It makes perfect sense for Scotland to leave a corrupt and unaccountable club called the UK government which dictates to them rather than allow democracy unlike the EU.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Goblin said:


> Why should the UK leave the EU?


erm........cos the people voted out and the MP's voted out

is that enough reason?


----------



## Colliebarmy

Goblin said:


> It makes perfect sense for Scotland to leave a corrupt and unaccountable club called the UK government which dictates to them rather than allow democracy unlike the EU.


So long as Sturgeons SNP has to leave Westminster and take all Scottish born MP's with her id say its a bloody good trade off

Oh, and the flow of benefits north can stop too


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> It makes perfect sense for Scotland to leave a corrupt and unaccountable club called the UK government which dictates to them rather than allow democracy unlike the EU.


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> Maybe you should actually read what you post then. Lots of difference between passing and backing.


I repeat again, I did not say anywhere that the queen was backing brexit. I also said just posted it to show that she had passed article 50. Not my opinion just because it states that on the image.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Theresa May to reach out to Scots after referendum veto*

Theresa May will use a speech to Tory activists to reach out to Scots after rejecting SNP calls for a second independence referendum.

The Prime Minister angered Nicola Sturgeon on Thursday by saying she won't consider another poll before Brexit is wrapped up.

A day on Mrs May will address the Conservative Spring Forum in Cardiff hoping her words are heard just as loudly in Edinburgh.

She will say: "The coming negotiations with the EU will be vital for everyone in the United Kingdom.

"Every person, every family, every business, every community the length and breadth of the United Kingdom - England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland."

The Prime Minister will talk of "one United Kingdom, all pulling together to get the best outcome".

"That is what we have always done when faced with challenges," she will say. "We have pulled together as one and succeeded together.

"We are four nations, but at heart we are one people.

"And I will always ensure the voices and interests of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are represented as we negotiate to leave the EU.

"And I will always fight to strengthen and sustain this precious, precious union."

Mrs May is expected to trigger Article 50 to start the process of withdrawing from the EU by the end of the month.

She will use this speech to outline her Plan for Britain and hope it proves more successful than the dedicated website, which crashed after going live on Thursday.

She will say: "We will get the right deal for Britain abroad - forging a new partnership with our friends and allies in Europe, but looking beyond Europe to build relationships with old friends and new allies around the world too.

"And at the same time, we will pursue the ambitious economic and social reforms we need to make Britain work for working people."

Mrs May will tell activists that her goal is "building a stronger, fairer Britain that our children and grandchildren will be proud to call home".

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-to-reach-out-to-scots-after-referendum-veto-10804359


----------



## Honeys mum

And rightly so.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The Prime Minister angered Nicola Sturgeon on Thursday by saying she won't consider another poll before Brexit is wrapped up.


Ah so referendums are polls then. So just how is she supposed to understand what the desires of the british people are if she is not prepared to listen. Sorry stupid question, she isn't prepared to listen.



> The Prime Minister will talk of "one United Kingdom, all pulling together to get the best outcome".


What has she done to actually unite them.. zip. UK is more divided than ever.



> "We are four nations, but at heart we are one people.


Not according to your actions.



> "And I will always ensure the voices and interests of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are represented as we negotiate to leave the EU.


Although you've ignored those voices and interests for your political gain so far. In fact you don't even acknowledge any concerns raised what is needed and the problems ahead.



> "And I will always fight to strengthen and sustain this precious, precious union."


Nice words, her actions prove differently.



> "And at the same time, we will pursue the ambitious economic and social reforms we need to make Britain work for working people."


Well we've also seen that, again in action rather than words as well. Those actions aren't what she is stating here.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> And rightly so.


So pleased the idea of soveriegnty and democracy is one you don't believe in. Remind me again why you voted to leave the EU?

Someone else's words: http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...without-knowing-alternative-looks-like/16/03/


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
that the Queen *signed *the document is no "proof" that she personally *backs *leaving the EU -
the public voted [or didn't, or couldn't], the tally was counted, Parliament erupted & eventually voted, the Lords had their say, & her signature is a rubber stamp.
.
She cannot "not sign" it - unless she wants another un-civil uprising. Whether the Queen personally believes departing from the EU is good, bad, or anywhere on the spectrum is immaterial - she's got to sign it, willy-nilly.
.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Sorry the first one didn't come up right.
> i'm sure we all would cheekyscrip, but no one can predict the future.
> Except this man, and he is no longer around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nostradamus


We do not need Nostradamus to tell how things go if Spain is given Gibraltar. Or if not, but they will block the frontier, the air space and territorial waters and our motherland Britain will do nothing about it.

So far TM and the government said Nothing At All about any plans as to the frontier or protection of our economy.

Closed frontier etc: No supplies, no tourism, no workforce.

Out of EU we have no regulations, no passporting of financial services.

Main income for our community comes from tourism, trade, financial services, gaming industry.

All those are directly affected by being out of EU.

With NO Employment, No supplies, No Workforce...but still with mortgage to pay, kids to feed and educate?

No help from mainland...

Put yourself and your family in this position....

After all your vote put us in this?


----------



## DoodlesRule

cheekyscrip said:


> We do not need Nostradamus to tell how things go if Spain is given Gibraltar. Or if not, but they will block the frontier, the air space and territorial waters and our motherland Britain will do nothing about it.
> 
> So far TM and the government said Nothing At All about any plans as to the frontier or protection of our economy.
> 
> Closed frontier etc: No supplies, no tourism, no workforce.
> 
> Out of EU we have no regulations, no passporting of financial services.
> 
> Main income for our community comes from tourism, trade, financial services, gaming industry.
> 
> All those are directly affected by being out of EU.
> 
> With NO Employment, No supplies, No Workforce...but still with mortgage to pay, kids to feed and educate?
> 
> No help from mainland...
> 
> Put yourself and your family in this position....
> 
> After all your vote put us in this?[/QUOT
> 
> @cheekyscrip


There is a debate in the House of Lords next Tuesday, following a report on the impact on Gibraltar, so hopefully you get some good news from that


----------



## cheekyscrip

DoodlesRule said:


> There is a debate in the House of Lords next Tuesday, following a report on the impact on Gibraltar, so hopefully you get some good news from that


Because Lords have the power to stop anything?

Without being fired?
Sorry if I am bitter.
Protection of their own should be top priority of any government.
Remember Thatcher and Falklands?

Wish upon the star that we all, monkeys and dolphins will not fall on Spanish "mercy".


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Here in Gibraltar we would be very glad to know anything about our future?


With all due respect cheekyscript, I understand you must be concerned what is going to happen to you, and I do feel for you.
But at this moment in time no one knows how things will turn out. I do hope you will get some good news after the debate on Tuesday.



cheekyscrip said:


> After all your vote put us in this?


Sorry , not just my vote, but 17,0000+ others as well.


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> Remind me again why you voted to leave the EU?


I have never said why I voted Leave, and have no intention of doing so. That is for me to know, all I have said is that I voted to leave and will not be changing my mind. we are all entitled to our opinions, and you have yours and I have mine.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> I have never said why I voted Leave, and have no intention of doing so. That is for me to know, all I have said is that I voted to leave and will not be changing my mind. we are all entitled to our opinions, and you have yours and I have mine.


No shock, most of those people who voted leave are not prepared to explain why they were prepared to damage both europe and the UK. Those who do simply point of the regular proven lies of the leave campaign as the basis.

That's the crux isn't it. Referendum divided the country yet those pushing the direction can not or will not explain why other than what is known to be lies. Lots of difference between what is and predictions. Yet those who voted leave are insisting because of an opinion poll, everyone should jump on board or in the PM's case, dictating they do so, without any chance to stand back and reevaluate.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> No shock, most of those people who voted leave are not prepared to explain why they were prepared to damage both europe and the UK. Those who do simply point of the regular proven lies of the leave campaign as the basis.
> 
> That's the crux isn't it. Referendum divided the country yet those pushing the direction can not or will not explain why.


I voted leave, and the last thing I have to do is explain to the likes of you why I voted to do so!
But for your information I don't believe those of us who did so, I certainly didn't believe we would damage the uk by doing so! Quite the opposite actually, I think. That by voting as we did will, in the long term better the UK!
Time will tell, time will tell!


----------



## 1290423




----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> I voted leave, and the last thing I have to do is explain to the likes of you why I voted to do so!
> But for your information I don't believe those of us who did so, I certainly didn't believe we would damage the uk by doing so! Quite the opposite actually, I think. That by voting as we did will, in the long term better the UK!
> Time will tell, time will tell!


Wish I would win the lottery, doesn't make it true. In fact according to the evidence.. I will not.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Goblin said:


> No shock, most of those people who voted leave are not prepared to explain why they were prepared to damage both europe and the UK. Those who do simply point of the regular proven lies of the leave campaign as the basis.
> 
> That's the crux isn't it. Referendum divided the country yet those pushing the direction can not or will not explain why other than what is known to be lies. Lots of difference between what is and predictions. Yet those who voted leave are insisting because of an opinion poll, everyone should jump on board or in the PM's case, dictating they do so, without any chance to stand back and reevaluate.


Perhaps they are reluctant to explain why because you only have to mention the word immigration in any context and you get called a racist or a Nazi or a bigot.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> With all due respect cheekyscript, I understand you must be concerned what is going to happen to you, and I do feel for you.
> But at this moment in time no one knows how things will turn out. I do hope you will get some good news after the debate on Tuesday.
> 
> Sorry , not just my vote, but 17,0000+ others as well.


So that makes it all right then?

My company and many others are moving out of Gibraltar, where they are offered good deals on taxes etc..in return of employment for their citizens.

How Lords can help us with that?

Tiny Gibraltar has big problem with absorbing so many suddenly unemployed from one sector.
Young, single have a chance.. For others it is harder to move somewhere else.
With British passport.... Ironic.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> So that makes it all right then?
> 
> My company and many others are moving out of Gibraltar, where they are offered good deals on taxes etc..in return of employment for their citizens.
> 
> How Lords can help us with that?
> 
> Tiny Gibraltar has big problem with absorbing so many suddenly unemployed from one sector.
> Young, single have a chance.. For others it is harder to move somewhere else.
> With British passport.... Ironic.


All this really gets me so mad, poor Gibraltar just seems to have been forgotten it's about time TM thought about all the British people where ever they live, not just the ones living here.


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Perhaps they are reluctant to explain why because you only have to mention the word immigration in any context and you get called a racist or a Nazi or a bigot.


Yet immigration and lack of control was one of the biggest lies of the leave campaign. Government could control it but didn't, not allowing for the fact the majority of immigration has nothing to do with the EU. That is more likely to be the reason. Nothing wrong with controlling immigration. There is something wrong when foreigners are used as an excuse for the failings of a government and people support doing so. When they ignore the evidence supporting the idea only with prejudice. When not prejudice, evidence should be available.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Happy Paws said:


> All this really gets me so mad, poor Gibraltar just seems to have been forgotten it's about time TM thought about all the British people where ever they live, not just the ones living here.


I don't think I've read particularly favourable comments from JC about Gibraltar or the Falklands - can't find it now but something like he would give them back tomorrow if it was up to him.



Goblin said:


> Yet immigration and lack of control was one of the biggest lies of the leave campaign. Government could control it but didn't, not allowing for the fact the majority of immigration has nothing to do with the EU. That is more likely to be the reason. Nothing wrong with controlling immigration. There is something wrong when foreigners are used as an excuse for the failings of a government and people support doing so. When they ignore the evidence supporting the idea only with prejudice.


Irrelevant to my comment. I said people might be reluctant to say why they voted to leave as they only have to mention the word immigration to be labelled a racist, Nazi or a bigot.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Wish I would win the lottery, doesn't make it true. In fact according to the evidence.. I will not.


But I'm not wishing for anything so I don't see the relevance of your reply.
My vote was based on what's important to me and my beliefs, all based on my vision of how things could be for the future , I was neither led nor influenced by anyone,


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> *Theresa May to reach out to Scots after referendum veto*
> 
> Theresa May will use a speech to Tory activists to reach out to Scots after rejecting SNP calls for a second independence referendum.
> 
> The Prime Minister angered Nicola Sturgeon on Thursday by saying she won't consider another poll before Brexit is wrapped up.
> 
> A day on Mrs May will address the Conservative Spring Forum in Cardiff hoping her words are heard just as loudly in Edinburgh.
> 
> She will say: "The coming negotiations with the EU will be vital for everyone in the United Kingdom.
> 
> "Every person, every family, every business, every community the length and breadth of the United Kingdom - England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland."
> 
> The Prime Minister will talk of "one United Kingdom, all pulling together to get the best outcome".
> 
> "That is what we have always done when faced with challenges," she will say. "We have pulled together as one and succeeded together.
> 
> "We are four nations, but at heart we are one people.
> 
> "And I will always ensure the voices and interests of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are represented as we negotiate to leave the EU.
> 
> "And I will always fight to strengthen and sustain this precious, precious union."
> 
> Mrs May is expected to trigger Article 50 to start the process of withdrawing from the EU by the end of the month.
> 
> She will use this speech to outline her Plan for Britain and hope it proves more successful than the dedicated website, which crashed after going live on Thursday.
> 
> She will say: "We will get the right deal for Britain abroad - forging a new partnership with our friends and allies in Europe, but looking beyond Europe to build relationships with old friends and new allies around the world too.
> 
> "And at the same time, we will pursue the ambitious economic and social reforms we need to make Britain work for working people."
> 
> Mrs May will tell activists that her goal is "building a stronger, fairer Britain that our children and grandchildren will be proud to call home".
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-to-reach-out-to-scots-after-referendum-veto-10804359


Is that an order? About as relevant as Trump saying he'll be a President for all Americans...

This sounds like an editorial from "The Sun". Significant perhaps the link is from the related Sky which of course is Murdoch tv.....


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't think I've read particularly favourable comments from JC about Gibraltar or the Falklands - can't find it now but something like he would give them back tomorrow if it was up to him


With that you are correct but at the end of the day had it not been for this stupid referendum none of this would be happening in the first place.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Is that an order? About as relevant as Trump saying he'll be a President for all Americans...
> 
> This sounds like an editorial from "The Sun". Significant perhaps the link is from the related Sky which of course is Murdoch tv.....


You and Murdoch you must like him as you go on about the Sun newspaper so much previously in this thread.

Ok here's BBC news. Don't tell me he owns that as well 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...ay&link_location=live-reporting-correspondent

It's fact Sturgeon is being denied an Indyref2 until later on after Brexit. TM has not said no she has said not right now during the Brexit process.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> No shock, most of those people who voted leave are not prepared to explain why


You could not be more wrong. I have explained my reasons for voting to leave many times; just not to the likes of you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*COMING SOON







*​


----------



## Colliebarmy

There was a Scottish referendum...result = Stay

There was a EU referendum..result = Leave

Lets observe the winning majorities?


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 303515


So, there's no 'was' about HAARP at all then. May has her finger on the remote has she?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> So, there's no 'was' about HAARP at all then. May has her finger on the remote has she?


Oh I didn't see the weather button in her hand


----------



## KittenKong

Colliebarmy said:


> There was a Scottish referendum...result = Stay
> 
> There was a EU referendum..result = Leave
> 
> Lets observe the winning majorities?


Perhaps, but in 2014 things were different as far as Scotland is concerned. EU membership with a comparatively moderate Coalition Government in Westminster at the time.

Secondly, The referendum paper only asked whether to remain a member or leave the European UNION, nothing about complete withdrawal and isolation from the rest of Europe which is what May is pursuing.

Leaving the European Union could have meant maintaining EEA membership, like Norway and Iceland as examples.

Neither option was given on the ballot paper.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 303513​





stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 303515


So this is saying Brexit will result in glorious weather in the UK and bad weather elsewhere in Europe?

It's amazing what people believe isn't it.

Just as, I'm sure some voted leave confusing the referendum with the European football tournament held at the time.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Oh I didn't see the weather button in her hand






Cloudbusting is a story about the relationship between a psychologist and philosopher, Wilhelm Reich, and his young son, Peter. It is told by a much more mature Peter and describes the the memories of his life with Reich on their family farm where the two spent time 'cloudbusting' 
A rain-making process involving aiming a machine called a cloudbuster, built by Reich, towards the sky.
Reich, a rather interesting and controversial character, was arrested for many things, but mainly because they wanted the secrets of the cloudbusting machine.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> So this is saying Brexit will result in glorious weather in the UK and bad weather elsewhere in Europe?
> 
> It's amazing what people believe isn't it.
> 
> Just as, I'm sure some voted leave confusing the referendum with the European football tournament held at the time.


Your so wound up because of Brexit your anger shows in your posts


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Cloudbusting is a story about the relationship between a psychologist and philosopher, Wilhelm Reich, and his young son, Peter. It is told by a much more mature Peter and describes the the memories of his life with Reich on their family farm where the two spent time 'cloudbusting'
> A rain-making process involving aiming a machine called a cloudbuster, built by Reich, towards the sky.
> Reich, a rather interesting and controversial character, was arrested for many things, but mainly because they wanted the secrets of the cloudbusting machine.


Was this on TV in Finland tonight? 
I am happy I have good old UK TV


----------



## stockwellcat.

*How wrong he was:







*​


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Was this on TV in Finland tonight?


Not that I'm aware of. 

But then they rarely have anything cultured on at all.

Why do you ask?:Watching


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Now is the time to STAND TOGETHER


Why when you cannot justify why we are leaving other than repeating the same proven lies. Why when those in power are ignoring the voices of anyone who questions them? Why democracy is something which is only of use when it suits you with the only justification a non-binding referendum? Why when TM statesit would be unfair to the people of Scotland to have a referendum without all the information yet she is pushing leaving without providing real information? Why when her policies are harming, not improving the lot of the average person and we are losing methods to hold her government accountable?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Why when you cannot justify why we are leaving other than repeating the same proven lies. Why when those in power are ignoring the voices of anyone who questions them? Why democracy is something which is only of use when it suits you?


Why do you keep moaning when you know the answers? Why are you so hateful towards vote leave supporters? Why won't you just accept we are leaving the EU and move on from this? Why do you keep asking questions that you know you won't get answers to or have already been answered but you are hoping for a different answer to?

The Conservatives were democratically voted into power in 2015. The Referendum was a democratic vote as it was voted through both houses of parliament and the result was as well. Everything was ligit and above board and the Queen gave royal assent twice (once for the Referendum and secondly for the Article 50 bill) so it is all legal now and enshrined in UK law.

Less than two weeks and article 50 will be triggered and the negotiations can start. Hurrah.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Why are you so hateful towards vote leave supporters?


Who said hateful towards leave supporters?



> Why won't you just accept we are leaving the EU and move on from this?


Because it is not set in stone that we will leave yet and democracy states that people can have a voice no matter how annoying it is for you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Who said hateful towards leave supporters?
> 
> Because it is not set in stone that we will leave yet and democracy states that people can have a voice no matter how annoying it is for you.


The Conservatives were democratically voted into power in 2015 for a second term (we vote parties into power in the UK not the leader of parties. On the election paper it says conservative, Labour, UKIP, green, lib dem, looney party etc). The Referendum was a democratic vote as it was voted through both houses of parliament and the result was as well. Everything was ligit and above board and the Queen gave royal assent twice (once for the Referendum and secondly for the Article 50 bill) so it is all legal now and enshrined in UK law.

The majority of the UK public legible to vote won and it doesn't matter how slim the win was.

Oh it is set in stone. The Queen signed the Article 50 bill today so TM can trigger it at any stage from today. Nothing can stop that now and it doesn't matter how much you don't like the sound of that, that is how it is.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Oh it is set in stone. The Queen signed the Article 50 bill today so TM can trigger it at any stage from today. Nothing can stop that now and it doesn't matter how much you don't like the sound of that, that is how it is.


Referendum was an opinion poll. Democracy includes the right to change your mind.

Nothing can stop article 50 being handed in, doesn't yet mean leaving cannot be stopped. Expect a couple of years of opposition at least.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Referendum was an opinion poll. Democracy includes the right to change your mind.
> 
> Nothing can stop article 50 being handed in, doesn't yet mean leaving cannot be stopped.


It can its called walking away from the negotiations. The EU leaders don't intend the UK to do this though they want a deal as much as the UK does and have accepted the UK is leaving. In the UK everything regarding Brexit is above board now there's not much else anyone can do to stop it as it is now enshrined into law.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Referendum was an opinion poll. Democracy includes the right to change your mind.


We are on this again. Change the scratched record.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> Why do you keep moaning when you know the answers? Why are you so hateful towards vote leave supporters? Why won't you just accept we are leaving the EU and move on from this? Why do you keep asking questions that you know you won't get answers to or have already been answered but you are hoping for a different answer to?


 You have hit the nail on the head there stockwell cat. Totally agree with you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Expect a couple of years of opposition at least.


What opposition? The Labour party back Brexit in the House of Commons and Corbyn is such a weak leader, the Lib Dems are only a party of 9 MP's and no one listens to them and Sturgeon will have to wait until after Brexit. Northern Ireland might be back under direct rule in around 8 days time as they haven't formed a power sharing assembly. 17.4+ million people is still bigger than 16 million.

The Conservatives aren't going anywhere until after 2020 elections and even then maybe voted back in power as Labour are so weak as an opposition party.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> Wish I would win the lottery, doesn't make it true. In fact according to the evidence.. I will not.


I fail to see the analogy (if there is one).


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> I don't see the relevance of your reply.


That is probably because there isn't any.


----------



## Honeys mum

Theresa May tells Nicola Sturgeon: No new Scottish independence referendum for six years

Oh dear N.S. is not going to like that.

Or this.


----------



## noushka05

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Perhaps they are reluctant to explain why because you only have to mention the word immigration in any context and you get called a racist or a Nazi or a bigot.


The leave campaign was racist & xenophobic . That doesn't mean everyone who voted out is racist & being concerned about immigration doesn't make someone racist. But we already had control of our borders. So anyone voting leave for this reason was duped.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


>


Its hard to understand the reasons people voted leave when they are now so cagey about sharing them


----------



## stockwellcat.

Look who has come out of the woodwork:
*Gordon Brown to push 'patriotic' third option for more powerful Scotland after Brexit*

http://amp.theguardian.com/politics...ption-for-more-powerful-scotland-after-brexit

Westminster won't agree to what he is proposing and that is that Holyrood get more power. The only way this can happen is if Westminster grant it and they won't.


----------



## noushka05

Well I'm just glad non of this is my name. My conscience is clear.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Its hard to understand the reasons people voted leave when they are now so cagey about sharing them
> 
> View attachment 303573


Nobody is cagey, it's just none of the remainers business why leavers voted leave if they don't want to disclose it. It was a free vote, it is people's right to vote which ever way they wanted to vote. You do not deserve an explaination as it is people's personal right to vote the way they voted.


----------



## noushka05

There are some very strange 'Christians' out there. Isn't Theresa May 'supposed' to be one?

I couldn't agree more with this.

*nal*‏@*cona*

You're not a Christian if you support @*realDonaldTrump* and #*Brexit* because of Refugees and traumatised immigrants.
You are anything but.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Well I'm just glad non of this is my name. My conscience is clear.
> 
> View attachment 303578
> 
> View attachment 303574
> 
> View attachment 303575
> 
> 
> View attachment 303576
> 
> 
> View attachment 303577
> 
> 
> View attachment 303579


My conscience is clear, it was on Referendum day when I cast my vote and still is now 

What about all the UK citizens in Europe?

The UK Governments concern should be for its own citizens first. People are unnecessarily panicking as well as the negotiations haven't started yet and when they do the UK Government intend on getting a deal on this as a priority. Those that are leaving are blaming Brexit but Brexit hasn't happened yet and are only using this as an excuse to undermine the UK. Those that have left had a choice to fill in the 85 page document to have a right of stay but refused to fill it in and left, there choice.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> My conscience is clear to see (can you see anything below) :
> View attachment 303582


Perhaps that's because you don't have one (Theresa May certainly doesn't - dead on the inside)


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Its hard to understand the reasons people voted leave when they are now so cagey about sharing them


Not everyone plasters their every thought online...many people have opinions which they do not wish to shout to the four winds. Many feel that harping on about it and going round in ever-decreasing circles is not very productive. I, for one, think you should be directing your frustration at the 20% who could not be arsed to vote and swung the referendum in a direction remainers did not want. They are the ones you should berate; but I doubt you will.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> Not everyone plasters their every thought online...many people have opinions which they do not wish to shout to the four winds. Many feel that harping on about it and going round in ever-decreasing circles is not very productive. I, for one, think you should be directing your frustration at the 20% who could not be arsed to vote and swung the referendum in a direction they did not want. They are the ones you should berate; but I doubt you will.


And don't forget the remainers who voted leave because they thought the Referendum result wouldn't be upheld. I have put newspaper articles on here as proof further back somewhere.

I agree @Calvin with your post above these are the people the remainers should be angry at.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> There are some very strange 'Christians' out there. Isn't Theresa May 'supposed' to be one?


You really are clutching at straws again now...you are also suggesting that Christians alone have the monopoly on philanthropy, beneficence and acts of humanity, which is very bigoted and narrow-minded of you. Would you make such a comment if TM were Jewish, Buddhist or Muslim? No, I thought not.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Not everyone plasters their every thought online...many people have opinions which they do not wish to shout to the four winds. Many feel that harping on about it and going round in ever-decreasing circles is not very productive. I, for one, think you should be directing your frustration at the 20% who could not be arsed to vote and swung the referendum in a direction remainers did not want. They are the ones you should berate; but I doubt you will.


Well perhaps this is why the thread is going round in circles because the remain camp have yet to hear a valid reason for leaving the EU. All we have seen is what we all now must be aware are proven lies. - We couldn't 'take our country back', because we already had it. We already controlled our own borders. Turkey were never going to join the EU. We are going to be poorer & have less money for our NHS, schools, public services. They are going to build a bonfire with EU regulations which protected our environment & so on.

Isn't strange how no one is shouting from the rooftops all the positives of leaving the EU?. 



Calvine said:


> You really are clutching at straws again now...you are also suggesting that Christians alone have the monopoly on philanthropy, beneficence and acts of humanity, which is very bigoted and narrow-minded of you. Would you make such a comment if TM were Jewish, Buddhist or Muslim? No, I thought not.


Wow, you'd make a good Sun reporter (or tory politician). I wasn't suggesting that at all. I'm well aware there are good & bad in all. I was pointing out the staggering hypocrisy of some Christians. Hate & bigotry are not Christian values - yet all over social media we see Christians with not a jot of empathy for refugees or migrants, wanting to build walls & pull up drawbridges to keep them out. I would speak out against May for her dishonesty & her cruelty whatever her religion was. May claims her Christian God speaks to her - while she sets about destroying lives. Hypocrisy in the extreme.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Wow, you'd make a good Sun reporter (or tory politician).


Can you explain your reasons for saying this? No, I thought not. I realise the Sun has the highest circulation in the country (or had) but personally I do not buy it; nor do I read it online. So many of you remainers quote it that I seriously suspect you read it avidly from cover to cover. Maybe you should rephrase your post about TM ''supposedly'' being a Christian so that those of us who are used to plain speech can understand it.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Wow, you'd make a good Sun reporter (or tory politician). I wasn't suggesting that at all. I'm well aware there are good & bad in all. I was pointing out the staggering hypocrisy of some Christians. Hate & bigotry are not Christian values - yet all over social media we see Christians with not a jot of empathy for refugees or migrants, wanting to build walls & pull up drawbridges to keep them out. I would speak out against May for her dishonesty & her cruelty whatever her religion was. May claims her Christian God speaks to her - while she sets about destroying lives. Hypocrisy in the extreme.


There you go again...you have used the word Christian four times in as many lines. I don't think you even know you are doing it.  You should check your script before you post. If Mrs May were Jewish, what would you be saying then?


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Well perhaps this is why the thread is going round in circles because the remain camp have yet to hear a valid reason for leaving the EU. All we have seen is what we all now must be aware are proven lies. - We couldn't 'take our country back', because we already had it. We already controlled our own borders. Turkey were never going to join the EU. We are going to be poorer & have less money for our NHS, schools, public services. They are going to build a bonfire with EU regulations which protected our environment & so on.
> 
> Isn't strange how no one is shouting from the rooftops all the positives of leaving the EU?.


Well it just shows that it is hard to hear when one is not listening.

The nascent attempts to discuss the reasons for wishing to leave were quickly trampled underfoot by the herd. It is hardly surprising then, that leave supporters cannot be bothered to respond to the aggressive demands to 'explain yourself' when it is obvious that those demands are not well-intended.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Can you explain your reasons for saying this? No, I thought not. I realise the Sun has the highest circulation in the country (or had) but personally I do not buy it; nor do I read it online. So many of you remainers quote it that I seriously suspect you read it avidly from cover to cover. Maybe you should rephrase your post about TM ''supposedly'' being a Christian so that those of us who are used to plain speech can understand it.


I can. You put your own spin on what I said.

No its ok, I think I've clarified now


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Well it just shows that it is hard to hear when one is not listening.
> 
> The nascent attempts to discuss the reasons for wishing to leave were quickly trampled underfoot by the herd. It is hardly surprising then, that leave supporters cannot be bothered to respond to the aggressive demands to 'explain yourself' when it is obviously that those demands are not well-intended.


I'm listening & I haven't heard anything that wasn't a proven lie.

Did you hear David Davis the other day? I can't believe anyone has faith in these inept idiots. We are screwed.


----------



## Bisbow

Why don't we shout from the rooftops, because if we do we are called racists, bigots and any nasty name you can think of so why bother. You will not look beyond the end of your nose, just quote reams what the so called experts spout ( how many tomes have they been proven wrong, I've lost count} You do not seem to have one individual thought of your own. It ill copied from elsewhere


We want the best for our children, grand children and the future of the UK
You want to be chained to faceless wonders telling us how to live our lives

\\If the experts told you today was Christmas day you would believe it


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> No its ok, I think I've clarified now


Er, no, I don't think so.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Isn't strange how no one is shouting from the rooftops all the positives of leaving the EU?.


Why would they?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Did you hear David Davis the other day? I can't believe anyone has faith in these inept idiots. We are screwed.


Indeed, even if I was in favour of Brexit I wouldn't trust this lot to see it through.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We are screwed.


This is your opinion and nothing else.

I would love to know how you know this for certain?

Do you have a time machine and have seen the future?

Do you have a crystal ball that can see into the future?

Are you God and can foresee the future?

Your opinion is duly noted and filed in the appropriate place:


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> Why don't we shout from the rooftops, because if we do we are called racists, bigots and any nasty name you can think of so why bother.


Will not bother because the leave campaign was based on core central lies about the position and how things work. Remain campaign was bad but it was based on worst case predictions. The foundation of the leave campaign was lying. Foundation of the remain campaign was take the worse possible case.



> We want the best for our children, grand children and the future of the UK. You want to be chained to faceless wonders telling us how to live our lives


And there you simply repeat a lie of the leave campaign. A democracy with more accountability to what we currently seem to have in the UK. A society where rights are protected, the environment is protected, one where people are encouraged to work together, to spread information and ideas. So tell me how is an elected body telling us how to live our lives any different in or out of the EU?



> \\If the experts told you today was Christmas day you would believe it


Yes I would if it actually was Christmas and they explain why it was the case. You seem to believe it's St Georges day when it's April 1st.


----------



## Bisbow

It is amazing that everyone who disagrees with you is lying, just shows how closed minded you are

I have stated why I voted to leave and do not intend to repeat myself over and over again as you do

To keep on will not make me change my mind so give it up


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I'm listening & I haven't heard anything


This is how remainers listen:


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> It is amazing that everyone who disagrees with you is lying,


Evidence, not disagreement shows they are. So tell me if we were controlled by faceless people how come they didn't stop us from even holding a referendum? Why they will not stop others from holding referendums if that is a decision? Why is it they seem to approve of democracy and the right to make decisions ourselves. This, unlike say May who is refusing to allow a Scottish referendum when they want one?


----------



## Odin_cat

stockwellcat said:


> My conscience is clear, it was on Referendum day when I cast my vote and still is now
> 
> What about all the UK citizens in Europe?
> 
> The UK Governments concern should be for its own citizens first. People are unnecessarily panicking as well as the negotiations haven't started yet and when they do the UK Government intend on getting a deal on this as a priority.


I have no desire to get involved in an argument, but, as a British citizen living in the EU, I wanted to say that the failure of parliament to guarantee EU citizens' rights worries me greatly. I would feel much more comfortable and secure if they were granted permission to remain.

People's lives aren't bargaining chips, regardless of where they are from.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

noushka05 said:


> The leave campaign was racist & xenophobic . That doesn't mean everyone who voted out is racist & being concerned about immigration doesn't make someone racist. But we already had control of our borders. So anyone voting leave for this reason was duped.





noushka05 said:


> Its hard to understand the reasons people voted leave when they are now so cagey about sharing them





noushka05 said:


> You're not a Christian if you support @*realDonaldTrump* and #*Brexit* because of Refugees and traumatised immigrants.
> You are anything but.





noushka05 said:


> Wow, you'd make a good Sun reporter (or tory politician).


I swore I wasn't getting involved in this thread again - 343 pages of remain voters telling leave voters why they voted how they did, not listening to concerns and reasons when they are offered and accusing people of being racist, Nazi or a bigot and now to top it all people who don't even believe in a god telling Christians why they are not Christians. I'm afraid in those few quotes above you have demonstrated admirably exactly why some leave voters are cagey about discussing their reasons for voting how they did on this forum. Character assassination is not very Christian either yet the people you follow on social media seem to feel entitled to do it all of the time. For the record being concerned about the number of refugees being allowed to enter our country is not the same as not having a "jot of empathy" with them. I have empathy for every single dog in every single rescue centre in the world but it doesn't mean I can take them all in to my home a) because I would soon be bankrupt trying to fund it much as I would love to and b) because my house is not big enough and c) because my resources would be overstretched and I would not be able to care for any of them to an acceptable standard and my existing dogs who have been here years as my loyal and trusting companions would suffer and be pushed out. Doesn't mean I do nothing and ignore the plight of all those other dogs, doesn't make me heartless or not a Christian or anti dog - it just means I acknowledge my limitations and have to be realistic. Now I'll get my tin hat and wait to be accused of some other heinous crime against refugees by comparing them to dogs.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> May who is refusing to allow a Scottish referendum when they want one?


''May, who is refusing to allow a SECOND referendum'' surely is what you mean? They had their referendum if I recall correctly.


----------



## Bisbow

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I swore I wasn't getting involved in this thread again - 343 pages of remain voters telling leave voters why they voted how they did, not listening to concerns and reasons when they are offered and accusing people of being racist, Nazi or a bigot and now to top it all people who don't even believe in a god telling Christians why they are not Christians. I'm afraid in those few quotes above you have demonstrated admirably exactly why some leave voters are cagey about discussing their reasons for voting how they did on this forum. Character assassination is not very Christian either yet the people you follow on social media seem to feel entitled to do it all of the time. For the record being concerned about the number of refugees being allowed to enter our country is not the same as not having a "jot of empathy" with them. I have empathy for every single dog in every single rescue centre in the world but it doesn't mean I can take them all in to my home a) because I would soon be bankrupt trying to fund it much as I would love to and b) because my house is not big enough and c) because my resources would be overstretched and I would not be able to care for any of them to an acceptable standard and my existing dogs who have been here years as my loyal and trusting companions would suffer and be pushed out. Doesn't mean I do nothing and ignore the plight of all those other dogs, doesn't make me heartless or not a Christian or anti dog - it just means I acknowledge my limitations and have to be realistic. Now I'll get my tin hat and wait to be accused of some other heinous crime against refugees by comparing them to dogs.


Well said, you have hit the nail on the head, pity it is not in the remainers coffin


----------



## Calvine

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I swore I wasn't getting involved in this thread again - 343 pages of remain voters telling leave voters why they voted how they did, not listening to concerns and reasons when they are offered and accusing people of being racist, Nazi or a bigot and now to top it all people who don't even believe in a god telling Christians why they are not Christians. I'm afraid in those few quotes above you have demonstrated admirably exactly why some leave voters are cagey about discussing their reasons for voting how they did on this forum. Character assassination is not very Christian either yet the people you follow on social media seem to feel entitled to do it all of the time. For the record being concerned about the number of refugees being allowed to enter our country is not the same as not having a "jot of empathy" with them. I have empathy for every single dog in every single rescue centre in the world but it doesn't mean I can take them all in to my home a) because I would soon be bankrupt trying to fund it much as I would love to and b) because my house is not big enough and c) because my resources would be overstretched and I would not be able to care for any of them to an acceptable standard and my existing dogs who have been here years as my loyal and trusting companions would suffer and be pushed out. Doesn't mean I do nothing and ignore the plight of all those other dogs, doesn't make me heartless or not a Christian or anti dog - it just means I acknowledge my limitations and have to be realistic. Now I'll get my tin hat and wait to be accused of some other heinous crime against refugees by comparing them to dogs.
> 
> Thank you @rottiepointerhouse, lucid post, agree with every word
> 
> [/QUOTE Thank you @rottiepointerhouse for a very lucid post. I agree with every word.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I swore I wasn't getting involved in this thread again - 343 pages of remain voters telling leave voters why they voted how they did, not listening to concerns and reasons when they are offered and accusing people of being racist, Nazi or a bigot and now to top it all people who don't even believe in a god telling Christians why they are not Christians. I'm afraid in those few quotes above you have demonstrated admirably exactly why some leave voters are cagey about discussing their reasons for voting how they did on this forum. Character assassination is not very Christian either yet the people you follow on social media seem to feel entitled to do it all of the time. For the record being concerned about the number of refugees being allowed to enter our country is not the same as not having a "jot of empathy" with them. I have empathy for every single dog in every single rescue centre in the world but it doesn't mean I can take them all in to my home a) because I would soon be bankrupt trying to fund it much as I would love to and b) because my house is not big enough and c) because my resources would be overstretched and I would not be able to care for any of them to an acceptable standard and my existing dogs who have been here years as my loyal and trusting companions would suffer and be pushed out. Doesn't mean I do nothing and ignore the plight of all those other dogs, doesn't make me heartless or not a Christian or anti dog - it just means I acknowledge my limitations and have to be realistic. Now I'll get my tin hat and wait to be accused of some other heinous crime against refugees by comparing them to dogs.


Well said. You nailed it on the head.


----------



## Calvine

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I swore I wasn't getting involved in this thread again - 343 pages of remain voters telling leave voters why they voted how they did, not listening to concerns and reasons when they are offered and accusing people of being racist, Nazi or a bigot and now to top it all people who don't even believe in a god telling Christians why they are not Christians. I'm afraid in those few quotes above you have demonstrated admirably exactly why some leave voters are cagey about discussing their reasons for voting how they did on this forum. Character assassination is not very Christian either yet the people you follow on social media seem to feel entitled to do it all of the time. For the record being concerned about the number of refugees being allowed to enter our country is not the same as not having a "jot of empathy" with them. I have empathy for every single dog in every single rescue centre in the world but it doesn't mean I can take them all in to my home a) because I would soon be bankrupt trying to fund it much as I would love to and b) because my house is not big enough and c) because my resources would be overstretched and I would not be able to care for any of them to an acceptable standard and my existing dogs who have been here years as my loyal and trusting companions would suffer and be pushed out. Doesn't mean I do nothing and ignore the plight of all those other dogs, doesn't make me heartless or not a Christian or anti dog - it just means I acknowledge my limitations and have to be realistic. Now I'll get my tin hat and wait to be accused of some other heinous crime against refugees by comparing them to dogs.


 Agree with every word...a very lucid post.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> ''May, who is refusing to allow a SECOND referendum'' surely is what you mean? They had their referendum if I recall correctly.


They certainly did in 2014 and they knew the EU referendum was in the pipeline as well, even though Sturgeon denies this.


----------



## Goblin

Odin_cat said:


> I have no desire to get involved in an argument, but, as a British citizen living in the EU, I wanted to say that the failure of parliament to guarantee EU citizens' rights worries me greatly. I would feel much more comfortable and secure if they were granted permission to remain.
> 
> People's lives aren't bargaining chips, regardless of where they are from.


At least in the EU you are protected, especially if you have lived in the country for 5+ years and qualify for long term residency. EU citizens living in the UK don't even have that. I know some like to pretend it's simply the same.. tit for tat. It isn't.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> They certainly did in 2014 and they knew the EU referendum was in the pipeline as well, even though Sturgeon denies this.


And if they voted to stay in the government promised substantial changes. Doesn't actually matter, they have a right to determine options themselves, not be dictated to. Then again, Brexit was never about democracy was it. Seems to be the opposite.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Well said, you have hit the nail on the head, pity it is not in the remainers coffin


Wow! That's rather nasty!

I was brought up on Christian values even if I'm not religious in my adult life. Nor am I an atheist either.

Amongst other issues I was taught to, "Love thy neighbour as thyself".

For certain members of the government to call themselves Christians' the message they appear to be promoting is, "Britain for the British, to hell with everyone else".


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## Colliebarmy

KittenKong said:


> Wow! That's rather nasty!
> 
> I was brought up on Christian values even if I'm not religious in my adult life. Nor am I an atheist either.
> 
> Amongst other issues I was taught to, "Love thy neighbour as thyself".
> 
> For certain members of the government to call themselves Christians' the message they appear to be promoting is, "Britain for the British, to hell with everyone else".


turn the other cheek so they can slap that one too?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> ''May, who is refusing to allow a SECOND referendum'' surely is what you mean? They had their referendum if I recall correctly.


Without wishing to go round in circles the possibility of another referendum in the event of Scotland being forced out of the EU against its wishes was in the SNP manifesto.

They won all but three seats on that manifesto.

I'm sure you would have been annoyed if Cameron went back on his manifesto pledge to hold the EU referendum?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Will not bother because the leave campaign was based on core central lies about the position and how things work. Remain campaign was bad but it was based on worst case predictions. The foundation of the leave campaign was lying. Foundation of the remain campaign was take the worse possible case.


If anyone voted purely on the campaigns or even took them seriously, then your statements would be valid. I don't think any intelligent person, and I think that applies to the majority who voted out on here, took any notice of what was said in the campaigns

I certainly didn't and used my own judgement and investigations to make up my mind


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Without wishing to go round in circles the possibility of another referendum in the event of Scotland being forced out of the EU against its wishes was in the SNP manifesto.
> 
> They won all but three seats on that manifesto.
> 
> I'm sure you would have been annoyed if Cameron went back on his manifesto pledge to hold the EU referendum?


But without going around in circles as well Scotland aren't being forced out of anything, they aren't a member of the EU the UK as a whole is. Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and only have devolved powers. So if Scotland got there second Referendum they wouldn't remain in the EU they'd have to join like any other independent country wishing to join and the EU have said this on countless occasions to Sturgeon but she doesn't believe this.


----------



## Satori

Calvine said:


> ''May, who is refusing to allow a SECOND referendum'' surely is what you mean? They had their referendum if I recall correctly.


Yup. Once in a lifetime opportunity they said. Must have been referring to hamsters I guess?


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Wow! That's rather nasty!
> 
> I was brought up on Christian values even if I'm not religious in my adult life. Nor am I an atheist either.
> 
> Amongst other issues I was taught to, "Love thy neighbour as thyself".
> 
> For certain members of the government to call themselves Christians' the message they appear to be promoting is, "Britain for the British, to hell with everyone else".


The remain lost so the coffin is there to put all your sanctimonious rhetoric in and bury it
It is going to happen so all your experts lies can go in as well, you will not change the result however much you insult us


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong I can see this gathering in Edinburgh you have posted on another thread is going to be misleading about how many people show up as there are other events going on at the same time in Edinburgh on the same day.

Have you noticed how much the Government and Parliament are interested in these gatherings? Yes that's right, not one bit interested as they are having no impact on anything.


----------



## 1290423

Saturday 18th March 2017 1210hh
Nine months after the referendum vote I can confirm 100% without doubt, if we had to return to the polls my vote would be EXACTLY the same as in June.
OUT can't come quick enough for me


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> The remain lost so the coffin is there to put all your sanctimonious rhetoric in and bury it
> It is going to happen so all your experts lies can go in as well, you will not change the result however much you insult us


Dear me, you're comparing this to a game of football with no thought for people's lives. I take what Cheeky is going through in Gibraltar is of no concern to you?

No wonder many leavers have a reputation of being nasty and bigoted with a comment like that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Saturday 18th March 2017 1210hh
> Nine months after the referendum vote I can confirm 100% without doubt,* if we had to return to the polls my vote would be EXACTLY the same as in June.
> OUT can't come quick enough for me *


I would vote the same way to. Out. I can't wait until 2019 or sooner as we'll be out of the EU.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Well perhaps this is why the thread is going round in circles because the remain camp have yet to hear a valid reason for leaving the EU. All we have seen is what we all now must be aware are proven lies. - We couldn't 'take our country back', because we already had it. We already controlled our own borders. Turkey were never going to join the EU. We are going to be poorer & have less money for our NHS, schools, public services. They are going to build a bonfire with EU regulations which protected our environment & so on.
> 
> Isn't strange how no one is shouting from the rooftops all the positives of leaving the EU?.
> 
> Wow, you'd make a good Sun reporter (or tory politician). I wasn't suggesting that at all. I'm well aware there are good & bad in all. I was pointing out the staggering hypocrisy of some Christians. Hate & bigotry are not Christian values - yet all over social media we see Christians with not a jot of empathy for refugees or migrants, wanting to build walls & pull up drawbridges to keep them out. I would speak out against May for her dishonesty & her cruelty whatever her religion was. May claims her Christian God speaks to her - while she sets about destroying lives. Hypocrisy in the extreme.


Noush, many of us have given loads of reasons why we wanted out, just no one seems to listen, the very fact alone that we were taken in against our will to start with is reason alone for some.
Because we wanted out, and consequently voted out we don't have to explain those reasons to anyone, just the same as those who voted the opposite don't. It's like asking someone to explain why they don't like chocolate for instance, or Brussel sprouts even. Xxxx


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> @KittenKong I can see this gathering in Edinburgh you have posted on another thread is going to be misleading about how many people show up as there are other events going on at the same time in Edinburgh on the same day.
> 
> Have you noticed how much the Government and Parliament are interested in these gatherings? Yes that's right, not one bit interested as they are having no impact on anything.


No, I don't honestly believe May will take the slightest bit of notice of this event and the parallel one in London. Ignoring a 1.8m petition against Trump's visit is clear evidence of that.

That doesn't mean people should be stopped from making their feelings known because she won't listen to anyone bar herself though!

I think that attitude only makes us more determined, not less to put our point of view across.


----------



## Bisbow

To tell the truth I did not expect the leavers to win and I was prepared to be on the other side but I would never have kicked up as much fuss as you remainers have
If it was the will of the people so be it, I would not have called the winners nasty names and been so insulting, that is not my way but it seems it is for you who lost

For crying out loud give it a rest and wait and see what happens, I don't know and neither do you
There will be ups and downs of course but I believe as a country we will overcome the downs and celebrate the ups


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> No, I don't honestly believe May will take the slightest bit of notice of this event and the parallel one in London.
> 
> May's mind is made up, end of. We know that.
> 
> But that shouldn't prevent us from making our feelings known if we wish to.
> 
> People didn't sit back and accept the Poll Tax did they?!


You have made your feeling known over and over again and it has not made the slightest difference


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No, I don't honestly believe May will take the slightest bit of notice of this event and the parallel one in London.
> 
> May's mind is made up, end of. We know that.
> 
> But that shouldn't prevent us from making our feelings known if we wish to.
> 
> People didn't sit back and accept the Poll Tax did they?!


OK have your gatherings if it makes you happy disrupting everyone elses lives having to avoid them trying to get on with there lives. I do not want to hear or read the remoaners moaning when the UK leaves the EU and the UK celebrates UK Independence day.


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> we will overcome the downs and celebrate the ups


But only if the country in united... as in United Kingdom.


----------



## Bisbow

agreed

My only regret is I won't be here in 30 years time to see how we have grown and prospered {unless someone comes up with the elixir of youth}
as I am sure it will
North Korea allowing of course


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> I voted leave, and the last thing I have to do is explain to the likes of you why I voted to do so!
> But for your information I don't believe those of us who did so, I certainly didn't believe we would damage the uk by doing so! Quite the opposite actually, I think. That by voting as we did will, in the long term better the UK!
> *Time will tell, time will tell!*


How will time tell, exactly?

What will you look for to show that the Brexit future is better than the alternative which won't exist for comparison purposes?


----------



## KittenKong

DT said:


> Saturday 18th March 2017 1210hh
> Nine months after the referendum vote I can confirm 100% without doubt, if we had to return to the polls my vote would be EXACTLY the same as in June.
> OUT can't come quick enough for me


You still can't think of any actual benefits of leaving though!



Bisbow said:


> To tell the truth I did not expect the leavers to win and I was prepared to be on the other side but I would never have kicked up as much fuss as you remainers have
> If it was the will of the people so be it, I would not have called the winners nasty names and been so insulting, that is not my way but it seems it is for you who lost
> 
> For crying out loud give it a rest and wait and see what happens, I don't know and neither do you
> There will be ups and downs of course but I believe as a country we will overcome the downs and celebrate the ups


I'm surprised. I knew leave would win as soon as the referendum was announced after the way the media portrayed the EU. No I'm not going to start a debate on the press and social media again. Just look at some posts early in the thread for example...

Yes, I'm actually pleased for you you're getting the hard Brexit you want. Good luck to you.

If the EU do allow voluntary citizenship at our expense then I'll be happy with that. All speculation at the moment though.

No I will not give it a rest, for that matter why should you? You're entitled to your viewpoint, then so am I. Just don't expect us to agree with you or vice versa of course.

No I don't believe many leavers would not kick up a fuss had the vote gone the other way, in much the same way Wilders in Holland states he won't go away after losing.....



Calvine said:


> But only if the country in united... as in United Kingdom.


United in name only.

I've long supported the EEA like compromise which is hardly what I want. I believe in full and ever closer membership of the EU but recognise this will not be popular with many.

In the same sense why do Brexiteers believe complete isolation from the rest of Europe will be popular with everyone or will come round to it in a sea of patriotic glory?

Only an EEA like compromise will work towards uniting the deeply divided kingdom in my view.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 303515


I presume this cartoon was drawn after May had become prime minister when she had a Damascene conversion from saying that leaving the EU would be bad for the UK and decided it was just the bestest thing that could happen to us.

They always come across as rather desperate attempts to reassure leave voters that it will be alright, which is odd because they should surely not need it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


>


She didn't have a choice she had to sign it


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> If anyone voted purely on the campaigns or even took them seriously, then your statements would be valid.


Strange when the only reasons people can give are those directly associated with the leave campaign then isn't it. Like politicians, just something doesn't make it true.

If you want people to unite as a country give reasons other than "I wanted to" and "Stuff it, we won".


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> To tell the truth I did not expect the leavers to win and I was prepared to be on the other side but I would never have kicked up as much fuss as you remainers have


No we would have had calls for another referendum on and on. Again evidence is already there. Remember the petition for a 2nd referendum was actually started by a leave campaigner. Then there's Farage saying it wouldn't be the end. That is until they won when it became "democracy has spoken now shut up". Difference is a stay result would allow people to continue and change opinion.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Seconded.
> 
> *Some of the disrespect shown towards Scotland and its people on this forum is incredible. *
> 
> One thing Sturgeon has that May seriously lacks is people skills.
> 
> Funny how some of the comments here seem to be directly from the right wing media!


It gets to me as well, If Scotland wants it independence who is TM to say no, she reminds me of Trump throwing his toys out the pram.

Nicola Sturgeon is no fool and is a very strong woman and stands firmly behind what is best for Scotland. I just wish that TM felt the same about the rest of the UK.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> No we would have had calls for another referendum on and on.


No, I think not. The ''Leave'' voters were so totally cock-sure of winning (hence why many did not think to ''waste their time'' voting) that it came as a total shock that they could possibly have been edged by ''Remain'', who, according to the polls and bookies, were never going to win. Leave voters knew that every vote counted and made sure they voted, even if they were in Fiji at the time. Now remain are wishing they had not been complacent...but many were. That's life.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> No I don't believe many leavers would not kick up a fuss had the vote gone the other way, in much the same way Wilders in Holland states he won't go away after losing.....
> 
> I was brought up to respect the majority whether I agreed with it or not, as where most of my generation
> Not to throw a hissy fit because I lost
> Respect these days seems in short measure


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Theresa May is planning 'BREXIT DAY' to celebrate EU independence*
*







*


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> *Theresa May is planning 'BREXIT DAY' to celebrate EU independence*


If she's got any sense at all she will do no such thing.


----------



## Arnie83

All the opprobrium being poured on Ms Sturgeon in here for calling for a referendum is unconscionable.

The SNP manifesto said they would do exactly that if there was a 'significant change' in the situation of Scotland. No-one can sensibly suggest that Brexit is insignificant, so she's doing what the manifesto promised.

How very odd to criticise her for that!


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> *Theresa May is planning 'BREXIT DAY' to celebrate EU independence*
> *
> View attachment 303626
> *


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Zaros said:


> Cloudbusting is a story about the relationship between a psychologist and philosopher, Wilhelm Reich, and his young son, Peter. It is told by a much more mature Peter and describes the the memories of his life with Reich on their family farm where the two spent time 'cloudbusting'
> A rain-making process involving aiming a machine called a cloudbuster, built by Reich, towards the sky.
> Reich, a rather interesting and controversial character, was arrested for many things, but mainly because they wanted the secrets of the cloudbusting machine.


Bloody fabulous song.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Arnie83 said:


> All the opprobrium being poured on Ms Sturgeon in here for calling for a referendum is unconscionable.
> 
> The SNP manifesto said they would do exactly that if there was a 'significant change' in the situation of Scotland. No-one can sensibly suggest that Brexit is insignificant, so she's doing what the manifesto promised.
> 
> How very odd to criticise her for that!


Shes called and been told no

whats the problem?


----------



## Colliebarmy

Arnie83 said:


> If she's got any sense at all she will do no such thing.


We dont need 1, we have April 23rd or 8th May as 2 options


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> *Theresa May is planning 'BREXIT DAY' to celebrate EU independence*
> *
> View attachment 303626
> *


Goes to prove May has adopted the policies of Farage should this be true.

Newspaper source please.

Still the delusional belief the whole UK will erupt in patriotic glory not seen since VE day.

In your dreams.....


----------



## Zaros

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Bloody fabulous song.


It is indeed. I often wonder if she actually knows how deeply she touches people? Some of her albums are purely mystical...'Aerial', for me, being the definitive one that reaches down into the very depths of my soul...............................................
.
.
.


_AND NOW WE RETURN YOU TO THE MAIN FEATURE _


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> Shes called and been told no
> 
> whats the problem?


I suspect the problem is that Scotland want to be a self-determining nation. Maybe with the support of all the Leave voters who purported to want the same thing, they'll manage it this time. Though I hope not.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Why don't we shout from the rooftops, because if we do we are called racists, bigots and any nasty name you can think of so why bother. You will not look beyond the end of your nose, just quote reams what the so called experts spout ( how many tomes have they been proven wrong, I've lost count} You do not seem to have one individual thought of your own. It ill copied from elsewhere
> 
> We want the best for our children, grand children and the future of the UK
> You want to be chained to faceless wonders telling us how to live our lives
> 
> \\If the experts told you today was Christmas day you would believe it


The leave campaign was totally xenophobic - this government for all intents & purposes is now ukip its moved so far to the right. Our 'christian' PM is treating refugees & migrants appallingly. Having Christian values = her being heartless towards minorities (towards the poor, the disabled (badgers!) ) Jesus would be so proud...

We know for a fact that our economy needs migrants, we know they contribute more to our economy than they take out. Funny some people don't seem to be able to see the truth - is it because they think they 'know' better than the evidence proving these facts?

'You can have your own opinion but you cant have your own facts' as the saying goes. The difference between you & I is I prefer to have informed opinions, I don't just 'know' stuff. So although I have my own opinions, on important issues such as climate change, medicine, other sciences, brexit & so on, I am well aware of my limits.
I have no problem accepting experts know far better than I do.

I would never be so arrogant as to presume I am better informed than esteemed academics or challenge the consensual position of experts - in any field.

The earth is being killed thanks to people with your mentality. Climate change is the greatest threat to life on earth we face - yet we still have a mass of people who refute the science because they believe they know better than practically an entire scientific community.

Those faceless wonders offered us protection from our own government. They set minimum standards for air & water quality. They set minimum standards that protected our environment. Food safety standards, pesticide control, workers rights, animal welfare - all those regulations to be ripped up by this extremist government.
Don't you think these regulations benefit your children & Grandchildren? Don't they depend on the NHS? on public services? What are we going to gain by leaving the EU? Is there actually anything??

This disregard of experts is extremely dangerous indeed.

I'll leave it to an expert to sum things up.

"_Being anti-expert - that's the way back to the cave_".


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Our 'christian' PM





noushka05 said:


> Having Christian values





noushka05 said:


> Jesus would be so proud...


Here we go again, Bible-bashing! I think you are turning into a religious zealot, @noushka05. .


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Here we go again, Bible-bashing! I think you are turning into a religious zealot, @noushka05. .


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> No, I think not. The ''Leave'' voters were so totally cock-sure of winning (hence why many did not think to ''waste their time'' voting) that it came as a total shock that they could possibly have been edged by ''Remain'', who, according to the polls and bookies, were never going to win. Leave voters knew that every vote counted and made sure they voted, even if they were in Fiji at the time. Now remain are wishing they had not been complacent...but many were. That's life.


Well there you have it.. an admission that the majority of the UK do not want to leave. It's only a win for a non-binding referendum which is driving things. Thank you so much for making it clear.


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> The leave campaign was totally xenophobic - this government for all intense & purposes is now ukip its moved so far to the right. Our 'christian' PM is treating refugees & migrants appallingly. Having Christian values = her being heartless towards minorities (towards the poor, the disabled (badgers!) ) Jesus would be so proud...
> 
> We know for a fact that our economy needs migrants, we know they contribute more to our economy than they take out. Funny some people don't seem to be able to see the truth - is it because they think they 'know' better than the evidence proving these facts?
> 
> 'You can have your own opinion but you cant have your own facts' as the saying goes. The difference between you & I is I prefer to have informed opinions, I don't just 'know' stuff. So although I have my own opinions, on important issues such as climate change, medicine, other sciences, brexit & so on, I am well aware of my limits.
> I have no problem accepting experts know far better than I do.
> 
> I would never be so arrogant as to presume I am better informed than esteemed academics or challenge the consensual position of experts - in any field.
> 
> The earth is being killed thanks to people with your mentality. Climate change is the greatest threat to life on earth we face - yet we still have a mass of people who refute the science because they believe they know better than practically an entire scientific community.
> 
> Those faceless wonders offered us protection from our own government. They set minimum standards for air & water quality. They set minimum standards that protected our environment. Food safety standards, pesticide control, workers rights, animal welfare - all those regulations to be ripped up by this extremist government.
> Don't you think these regulations benefit your children & Grandchildren? Don't they depend on the NHS? on public services? What are we going to gain by leaving the EU? Is there actually anything??
> 
> This disregard of experts is extremely dangerous indeed.
> 
> I'll leave it to an expert to sum things up.
> 
> "_Being anti-expert - that's the way back to the cave_".
> 
> View attachment 303627





noushka05 said:


> The leave campaign was totally xenophobic - this government for all intense & purposes is now ukip its moved so far to the right. Our 'christian' PM is treating refugees & migrants appallingly. Having Christian values = her being heartless towards minorities (towards the poor, the disabled (badgers!) ) Jesus would be so proud...
> 
> We know for a fact that our economy needs migrants, we know they contribute more to our economy than they take out. Funny some people don't seem to be able to see the truth - is it because they think they 'know' better than the evidence proving these facts?
> 
> 'You can have your own opinion but you cant have your own facts' as the saying goes. The difference between you & I is I prefer to have informed opinions, I don't just 'know' stuff. So although I have my own opinions, on important issues such as climate change, medicine, other sciences, brexit & so on, I am well aware of my limits.
> I have no problem accepting experts know far better than I do.
> 
> I would never be so arrogant as to presume I am better informed than esteemed academics or challenge the consensual position of experts - in any field.
> 
> The earth is being killed thanks to people with your mentality. Climate change is the greatest threat to life on earth we face - yet we still have a mass of people who refute the science because they believe they know better than practically an entire scientific community.
> 
> Those faceless wonders offered us protection from our own government. They set minimum standards for air & water quality. They set minimum standards that protected our environment. Food safety standards, pesticide control, workers rights, animal welfare - all those regulations to be ripped up by this extremist government.
> Don't you think these regulations benefit your children & Grandchildren? Don't they depend on the NHS? on public services? What are we going to gain by leaving the EU? Is there actually anything??
> 
> This disregard of experts is extremely dangerous indeed.
> 
> I'll leave it to an expert to sum things up.
> 
> "_Being anti-expert - that's the way back to the cave_".
> 
> View attachment 303627





noushka05 said:


> The leave campaign was totally xenophobic - this government for all intense & purposes is now ukip its moved so far to the right. Our 'christian' PM is treating refugees & migrants appallingly. Having Christian values = her being heartless towards minorities (towards the poor, the disabled (badgers!) ) Jesus would be so proud...
> 
> We know for a fact that our economy needs migrants, we know they contribute more to our economy than they take out. Funny some people don't seem to be able to see the truth - is it because they think they 'know' better than the evidence proving these facts?
> 
> 'You can have your own opinion but you cant have your own facts' as the saying goes. The difference between you & I is I prefer to have informed opinions, I don't just 'know' stuff. So although I have my own opinions, on important issues such as climate change, medicine, other sciences, brexit & so on, I am well aware of my limits.
> I have no problem accepting experts know far better than I do.
> 
> I would never be so arrogant as to presume I am better informed than esteemed academics or challenge the consensual position of experts - in any field.
> 
> The earth is being killed thanks to people with your mentality. Climate change is the greatest threat to life on earth we face - yet we still have a mass of people who refute the science because they believe they know better than practically an entire scientific community.
> 
> Those faceless wonders offered us protection from our own government. They set minimum standards for air & water quality. They set minimum standards that protected our environment. Food safety standards, pesticide control, workers rights, animal welfare - all those regulations to be ripped up by this extremist government.
> Don't you think these regulations benefit your children & Grandchildren? Don't they depend on the NHS? on public services? What are we going to gain by leaving the EU? Is there actually anything??
> 
> This disregard of experts is extremely dangerous indeed.
> 
> I'll leave it to an expert to sum things up.
> 
> "_Being anti-expert - that's the way back to the cave_".
> 
> View attachment 303627


Tha ks for your disgusting insults
You are the one with a warped mentality by refusing to even think about anyone but your own singular thoughts
As from now on I refuse to give you the chance of more insults
You are a non person to me, and not worth bothering with

That shows you my mentality, I hope it pleases you
I am fed up with all your guff, innuendoes and thoughts that all leave voters are stupid and inane. we are not, we want the best for our

families and not have them grovelling for a tit bit from the EU as you seem to want

Say and do what you want, you are not worth listening to

One last word I feel sorry for you that you can only shoot down in flames the people who disagree with you because of your insecurities


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

If this thread is anything to go by then God help us. Thankfully its not a reflection on real life and I think we all need to remember that.



noushka05 said:


> The leave campaign was totally xenophobic - this government for all intents & purposes is now ukip its moved so far to the right. Our 'christian' PM is treating refugees & migrants appallingly. Having Christian values = her being heartless towards minorities (towards the poor, the disabled (badgers!) ) Jesus would be so proud...
> 
> We know for a fact that our economy needs migrants, we know they contribute more to our economy than they take out. Funny some people don't seem to be able to see the truth - is it because they think they 'know' better than the evidence proving these facts?
> 
> 'You can have your own opinion but you cant have your own facts' as the saying goes. The difference between you & I is I prefer to have informed opinions, I don't just 'know' stuff. So although I have my own opinions, on important issues such as climate change, medicine, other sciences, brexit & so on, I am well aware of my limits.
> I have no problem accepting experts know far better than I do.
> 
> I would never be so arrogant as to presume I am better informed than esteemed academics or challenge the consensual position of experts - in any field.
> 
> The earth is being killed thanks to people with your mentality. Climate change is the greatest threat to life on earth we face - yet we still have a mass of people who refute the science because they believe they know better than practically an entire scientific community.
> 
> Those faceless wonders offered us protection from our own government. They set minimum standards for air & water quality. They set minimum standards that protected our environment. Food safety standards, pesticide control, workers rights, animal welfare - all those regulations to be ripped up by this extremist government.
> Don't you think these regulations benefit your children & Grandchildren? Don't they depend on the NHS? on public services? What are we going to gain by leaving the EU? Is there actually anything??
> 
> This disregard of experts is extremely dangerous indeed.
> 
> I'll leave it to an expert to sum things up.
> 
> "_Being anti-expert - that's the way back to the cave_".
> 
> View attachment 303627


 What gives you the right to call people xenophobic and question their Christian values and mentality - correct me if I'm wrong but haven't you stated you don't believe in God? Why do you feel able to judge what Jesus would think or feel? There are plenty of experts in all walks of life who have vested interests and bias - at one time surgeons promoted smoking and refused to accept it caused lung cancer and people were tortured or executed for disputing that the world was flat. You are as brain washed by your experts and as judgemental and dismissive of other peoples opinions and feelings and the people you accuse of bring brainwashed by the Sun. Its not on Noush.


----------



## rona

Bisbow said:


> Tha ks for your disgusting insults
> You are the one with a warped mentality by refusing to even think about anyone but your own singular thoughts
> As from now on I refuse to give you the chance of more insults
> You are a non person to me, and not worth bothering with
> 
> That shows you my mentality, I hope it pleases you
> I am fed up with all your guff, innuendoes and thoughts that all leave voters are stupid and inane. we are not, we want the best for our
> 
> families and not have them grovelling for a tit bit from the EU as you seem to want
> 
> Say and do what you want, you are not worth listening to
> 
> One last word I feel sorry for you that you can only shoot down in flames the people who disagree with you because of your insecurities





rottiepointerhouse said:


> If this thread is anything to go by then God help us. Thankfully its not a reflection on real life and I think we all need to remember that.
> 
> What gives you the right to call people xenophobic and question their Christian values and mentality - correct me if I'm wrong but haven't you stated you don't believe in God? Why do you feel able to judge what Jesus would think or feel? There are plenty of experts in all walks of life who have vested interests and bias - at one time surgeons promoted smoking and refused to accept it caused lung cancer and people were tortured or executed for disputing that the world was flat. You are as brain washed by your experts and as judgemental and dismissive of other peoples opinions and feelings and the people you accuse of bring brainwashed by the Sun. Its not on Noush.


If you only read things that back up your own viewpoint then you are always right in your own eyes


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see that the keyboard remainers on here are at it again. Throwing insults at leave supporters will not strengthen your cause. Its ashame some remainers on here are so closed minded that they like no one elses opinion except there own.








Right my fingers are sore now typing.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Tha ks for your disgusting insults
> You are the one with a warped mentality by refusing to even think about anyone but your own singular thoughts
> As from now on I refuse to give you the chance of more insults
> You are a non person to me, and not worth bothering with
> 
> That shows you my mentality, I hope it pleases you
> I am fed up with all your guff, innuendoes and thoughts that all leave voters are stupid and inane. we are not, we want the best for our
> 
> families and not have them grovelling for a tit bit from the EU as you seem to want
> 
> Say and do what you want, you are not worth listening to
> 
> One last word I feel sorry for you that you can only shoot down in flames the people who disagree with you because of your insecurities


That just isn't true. It's the hard Brexiteers who cannot accept people have a different viewpoint to themselves. Not once has Noushka accused all leave voters of being stupid or rascist. Like Noushka, some of my friends voted leave actually.

Think some leavers are becoming very defensive in justifying their support for leaving the EU and cannot accept people have a different viewpoint to themselves, nor the inability to support British Nationalism.

. Not supporting Nationalism doesn't make one anti British in the same sense Germans' who didn't back Hitler didn't make them anti German.

I understand patriotism, I'm an EU patriot actually, personally speaking. I'm happy to wave the Union flag as long as I have the EU flag in my other hand.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> That just isn't true. It's the hard Brexiteers who cannot accept people have a different viewpoint to themselves. Not once has Noushka accused all leave voters of being stupid or rascist. Like Noushka, some of my friends voted leave actually.
> 
> Think some leavers are becoming very defensive in justifying their support for leaving the EU and cannot accept people have a different viewpoint to themselves, nor the inability to support British Nationalism.
> 
> I understand patriotism, I'm an EU patriot actually, personally speaking!


T can see other view points, I have friends that voted both ways but I don't tear lumps out of or insult those that voted in
The line has to be drawn somewhere and as far as I am concerned she has reached it with her inability to see other points of view, the only opinion that matters is hers


----------



## stockwellcat.

*There's great news on the horizon:*


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> Well there you have it.. an admission that the majority of the UK do not want to leave. It's only a win for a non-binding referendum which is driving things. Thank you so much for making it clear.


I meant to say that remain were cocksure (which they were) and were just edged by leave (sure you realised that but are pretending otherwise. .
Wissen Sie etwas...Sie sind genau wie ein Hund der an einem Knochen kaut!! Bitte sehr.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Still the delusional belief the whole UK will erupt in patriotic glory not seen since VE day.


So this would upset you then when it happens:

































And the UK celebrates:








From the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Newspaper source please.


Why?
You put things on here and don't quote the source of what you put on here.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> In your dreams.....


And your nightmare because it is happening. Brexit that is.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> So this would upset you then when it happens:
> View attachment 303663
> 
> View attachment 303660
> 
> View attachment 303661
> 
> View attachment 303662
> 
> 
> And the UK celebrates:
> View attachment 303664
> 
> From the EU.


Didn't the great late Winston Churchill support the idea of an united Europe?

That image is an insult to his memory.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Why?
> You put things on here and don't quote the source of what you put on here.


Utter nonsense. I'm not frightened to reveal my sources. Look back at my posts and you'll see.

As I said in an earlier post no one is perfect. They may have been an odd occasion I might have unintentionally omitted the source. If you find any evidence of this, for heavens sake please tell me and I'll be pleased to rectify this.

I firmly believe, if you share the views and opinions of the items you upload, why withhold your source of information?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Utter nonsense. I'm not frightened to reveal my sources. Look back at my posts and you'll see.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Didn't the great late Winston Churchill support the idea of an united Europe?
> 
> That image is an insult to his memory.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> *There's great news on the horizon:*
> View attachment 303658
> 
> View attachment 303659​


*YOU JUST WILL NOT LET IT GO WILL YOU!!!*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> *YOU JUST WILL NOT LET IT GO WILL YOU!!!*


Nor will @noushka05, @KittenKong and @Goblin.
When they stop insulting people for voting the way they did then cool.

So don't just pick on me OK. Those three are worse they have been on about it for 9+ months.


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> Didn't the great late Winston Churchill support the idea of an united Europe?


Yes, he did - very strongly, post WW2.

And that represented a big change of position for him. Before WW2 he was very anti-Europe.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Seriously think this thread has run its course now, its getting childish and going round in ever decreasing circles. It really is very depressing for the future of our country as I just don't see how the two sides are ever going to be reconciled and work together. I don't envy the government trying to sort it out either.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Didn't the great late Winston Churchill support the idea of an united Europe?


He did, a united Europe.
I wouldn't have thought he envisaged the monster that was created. He was very patriotic you know, helped fight a war for freedom of his country 

I'd like a united Europe, just not what many class as united. We would have ended up like the united states of America, and how frightening is that just now?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> *There's great news on the horizon:*
> View attachment 303658
> 
> View attachment 303659​





stockwellcat said:


> So this would upset you then when it happens:
> View attachment 303663
> 
> View attachment 303660
> 
> View attachment 303661
> 
> View attachment 303662
> 
> 
> And the UK celebrates:
> View attachment 303664
> 
> From the EU.


Some people on here have suggested that the Remainers are bad losers.

I would point out that there are such things as bad winners as well.

I don't think that bringing the country together again will be achieved by provocative gloating.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Tha ks for your disgusting insults
> You are the one with a warped mentality by refusing to even think about anyone but your own singular thoughts
> As from now on I refuse to give you the chance of more insults
> You are a non person to me, and not worth bothering with
> 
> That shows you my mentality, I hope it pleases you
> I am fed up with all your guff, innuendoes and thoughts that all leave voters are stupid and inane. we are not, we want the best for our
> 
> families and not have them grovelling for a tit bit from the EU as you seem to want
> 
> Say and do what you want, you are not worth listening to


This country is finished.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> If this thread is anything to go by then God help us. Thankfully its not a reflection on real life and I think we all need to remember that.
> 
> What gives you the right to call people xenophobic and question their Christian values and mentality - correct me if I'm wrong but haven't you stated you don't believe in God? Why do you feel able to judge what Jesus would think or feel? There are plenty of experts in all walks of life who have vested interests and bias - at one time surgeons promoted smoking and refused to accept it caused lung cancer and people were tortured or executed for disputing that the world was flat. You are as brain washed by your experts and as judgemental and dismissive of other peoples opinions and feelings and the people you accuse of bring brainwashed by the Sun. Its not on Noush.


Because their words & actions are xenophobic maybe? You don't think the leave campaign was xenophobic? You don't think Theresa May's 'go home vans' for example were xenophobic? Using EU migrants as pawns - is that a very 'Christian' thing to do? Abandoning unaccompanied children - what would her God think about that? I was brought up a Christian, I was taught we should be like the good Samaritan & care about people wherever they're from, love thy neighbour & all that. I thought these were Christian values - was I wrong? I am atheist now - & thats because I need evidence to convince me. If we find proof God is real, I will accept it because I am not closed minded. I've been insulted, accused of all sorts - but I don't suppose that matters.

My experts?  So say you had a serious illness you wouldn't trust the consensual position of medical experts then - you'd go for unconventional treatment instead?? I bet you would...

Donald Trump doesn't believe in experts either. Undermining of experts is extremely dangerous, whether you choose to believe it or not.

Nobel Prize winning geneticist Sir Paul Nurse.

_But Sir Paul, a former president of Britain's top scientific body, the Royal Society, said even if Mr Gove had meant to cast doubt primarily on economics, he had been "irresponsible" not to clarify his remarks._

_He said the comment "spilled over into all sorts of other areas where experts have an enormous contribution to make to the proper running of society"._

_"The fact that experts have been derided in this way does have an effect in undermining science and scientific evidence."_

_Sir Paul said the British public still has high levels of trust in scientists but we are living in a period where "opinion is on the front foot"._

_"Those who are expert, who have the knowledge, who have the intellectual ability to dissect these difficult problems, are being derided and pushed back," he said. _

_"My view about this is that it cannot last for very long, because opinion is not built on firm foundations and it rapidly falls apart. And I think we're seeing that already with, for example, Mr Trump. _

_"Science is built to last. Opinions are not built to last_."


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Nor will @noushka05, @KittenKong and @Goblin.
> When they stop insulting people for voting the way they did then cool.
> 
> So don't just pick on me OK. Those three are worse they have been on about it for 9+ months.


No, you just like to wind up the people who wanted to remain and can be rather nasty about it. We have to live with your result why don't you just leave it alone.

I just wish someone would close this thread, it's been going long enough and it just going in round in circles


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Some people on here have suggested that the Remainers are bad losers.
> 
> I would point out that there are such things as bad winners as well.
> 
> I don't think that bringing the country together again will be achieved by provocative gloating.


I agree. So the thing is this we are heading in one certain direction and don't I know it that some people don't like it. We are all going to have to find common ground somewhere along the road and make this work for our country and the people that live in it.

Hopefully TM can secure a deal for the EU citizens living over here in the early stages of the negotiations and then that is dealt with and remainers can stop calling leavers racist and xenophobic etc and the finger pointing can stop at us online? It's funny nobody where I am utters a word in public about Brexit its only online you find all the abuse over Brexit.

Good luck to Scotland getting a second referendum but personally I don't think both houses of parliament will allow it until after Brexit. I thought I never would say this but Gordon Brown's idea of a third option is better than Sturgeon's. But that is my personal opinion. Again good luck.


----------



## rona

http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

This can be taken and twisted how you wish............

The bits that stood out for me was
"Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by their contribution to the common cause."

"I shall not try to make a detailed programme for hundreds of millions of people who want to be happy and free, prosperous and safe"

I've never felt truly safe and certainly not free within the EU


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Noush, many of us have given loads of reasons why we wanted out, just no one seems to listen, the very fact alone that we were taken in against our will to start with is reason alone for some.
> Because we wanted out, and consequently voted out we don't have to explain those reasons to anyone, just the same as those who voted the opposite don't. It's like asking someone to explain why they don't like chocolate for instance, or Brussel sprouts even. Xxxx


Just spotted this, sorry for the belated reply lol

Thing is we are now at the mercy of a bunch of crooks.

Did you hear David Davis? This government is corrupt & incompetent. How on earth can we hope to get a better deal than we have now with this useless idiot?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> No, you just like to wind up the people who wanted to remain and can be rather nasty about it. We have to live with your result why don't you just leave it alone.
> 
> I just wish someone would close this thread, it's been going long enough and it just going in round in circles


----------



## rona

Churchill also said
“We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed.”

“we are not merged with United Europe, we are a separate closely – and specially related – ally and friend, but we will not be subordinated into a federal system”.

"Where do we stand? We are not members of the European Defence Community, nor do we intend to be merged in a Federal European system. We feel we have a special relation to both. This can be expressed by prepositions, by the preposition "with" but not "of"—we are with them, but not of them. We have our own Commonwealth and Empire."


----------



## KittenKong

Indeed Noushka. Here's a couple of posts from Sabre for Brexiteers to bear in mind:


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Indeed Noushka. Here's a couple of posts from Sabre for Brexiteers to bear in mind:
> View attachment 303692
> View attachment 303693
> View attachment 303694


Well most eat mass produced EU meat........What's the difference?

Have you seen the farms in Holland?


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Indeed Noushka. Here's a couple of posts from Sabre for Brexiteers to bear in mind:
> View attachment 303692
> View attachment 303693
> View attachment 303694


Yep, if people think things are bad in the EU - they aint seen nothing yet.

Have you seen Michael Heseltine's letter to Theresa May? So polite - yet so powerful. The last paragraph is a knock out.


----------



## Dr Pepper

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I just don't see how the two sides are ever going to be reconciled and work together.


They'll be reconciled when the remainers see, in two years time, the arsehole of the world doesn't fall out, and just like the remainers threats before the vote everything is actually ok.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Well most eat mass produced EU meat........What's the difference?
> 
> Have you seen the farms in Holland?


At least there are minimum standards within the EU - it will be a race to the bottom outside it.

Do you think our farmers will be able to compete if they have to pay tariffs of up to 40%?


----------



## rona

Dr Pepper said:


> They'll be reconciled when the remainers see, in two years time, the arsehole of the world doesn't fall out, and just like the remainers threats before the vote everything is actually ok.


Unfortunately, I don't think it will be sorted in two years.
They'll be able to see that the world hasn't ended though.........unless it has, but that won't be down to Brexit


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Yep, if people think things are bad in the EU - they aint seen nothing yet.
> 
> Have you seen Michael Heseltine's letter to Theresa May? So polite - yet so powerful. The last paragraph is a knock out.
> 
> View attachment 303698


Haha. I wouldn't have had Michael Heseltine as someone you'd look up to. Instrumental in selling off the council houses when in the Thatcher government, anti CND when defence minister, pro nationalising the Royal Mail etc. And he does live in a rather nice little house.


----------



## noushka05

How sad is this. I don't recognise my country anymore.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-39305860

*The family leaving the UK because of Brexit*
*18 March 2017* Last updated at 01:57 GMT

Wibke came to the UK from Germany 18 years ago and has lived in Merseyside ever since.

After the EU referendum, she and husband Graham, who is British, decided to leave.

This summer they will pack up their house on the Wirral and take their daughter Josie and three cats to Germany.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Haha. I wouldn't have had Michael Heseltine as someone you'd look up to. Instrumental in selling off the council houses when in the Thatcher government, anti CND when defence minister, pro nationalising the Royal Mail etc. And he does live in a rather nice little house.


I don't look up to him. I think he took a very principled stand on brexit though.


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider* 4h4 hours ago

"Let's take the £350m we send the EU and spend it on the... Actually let's just destroy the NHS"


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*dav*

Just look at these stats. New nurses down from 1304 to 96.
"Let's take back control! As long as nobody falls ill or gets old!"


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
Bisbow,
U ripped Noushka up one side & down the other b/c she "only posts _*quotes *_from '_*experts*_'... [whom U apparently don't regard as expert, but despise].
.
Then a few posts later, Noushka posted her personal opinion - & again U gave her holy H***, & Satori jumped in to add more vituperative criticism.
.
.
let me just ask -
if on this thread one cannot post FACTS from well-reputed sources, nor EXPECTATIONS published by professionals in that industry who'd be reasonably thought to know what the H*** they're talking about, & then in addition U can't post PERSONAL OPINIONS without someone verbally disemboweling U in a highly-critical post...
what in heaven's name are others here _*"allowed" *_ to post? 
.
.
*What exactly,* Bisbow or Satori, *is anyone "permitted" to post on this thread?* - silly gifs? -- Charlie & the Chocolate Factory shots of Gene Wilder with funny captions?
--- are we allowed to DISCUSS this issue, or only to make mean-spirited, barbed remarks, or to ridicule those who hold an opinion that we don't share?
.
.
I'm for discussion - not name-calling, & not goofball pictures, which explain nothing & aren't pertinent.
.
.
.


----------



## noushka05

Thank you L4L - & @KittenKong x


----------



## FeelTheBern

Arnie83 said:


> the Remainers are bad losers.


Some of them certainly are...enter Tony Blair.


----------



## Satori

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .*What exactly,* Bisbow or Satori, *is anyone "permitted" to post on this thread?*


Oh that's easy:

- Socialist propaganda
- EU propaganda
- Christophobic rhetoric
- Unprovoked insults towards anybody who voted leave
- Petulant repetitive demands that leave supporters justify themselves
- Passive-aggressive non-sequiturs
- Constant whining about how Brexit might affect your precious status quo

Anything else and you are basically a stupid racist bigot.

I think that about sums it up.


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> Anything else and you are basically a stupid racist bigot.


Yet the personal attacks come from leavers. Interesting that.



> Petulant repetitive demands that leave supporters justify themselves


Strange that when people say they weren't influenced by the leave campaign but that's the only thing they can provide. Anything else and it's "don't need to justify myself". Well when evidence points to harming the UK you do need to justify yourself if you expect people to unite.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Anything else and it's "don't need to justify myself".


.... to you.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

noushka05 said:


> *This country is finished.*
> 
> Because their words & actions are xenophobic maybe? You don't think the leave campaign was xenophobic? You don't think Theresa May's 'go home vans' for example were xenophobic? Using EU migrants as pawns - is that a very 'Christian' thing to do? Abandoning unaccompanied children - what would her God think about that? I was brought up a Christian, I was taught we should be like the good Samaritan & care about people wherever they're from, love thy neighbour & all that. I thought these were Christian values - was I wrong? I am atheist now - & thats because I need evidence to convince me. If we find proof God is real, I will accept it because I am not closed minded. I've been insulted, accused of all sorts - but I don't suppose that matters.
> 
> My experts?  So say you had a serious illness you wouldn't trust the consensual position of medical experts then - you'd go for unconventional treatment instead?? I bet you would...
> 
> Donald Trump doesn't believe in experts either. Undermining of experts is extremely dangerous, whether you choose to believe it or not.
> 
> Nobel Prize winning geneticist Sir Paul Nurse.
> 
> _But Sir Paul, a former president of Britain's top scientific body, the Royal Society, said even if Mr Gove had meant to cast doubt primarily on economics, he had been "irresponsible" not to clarify his remarks._
> 
> _He said the comment "spilled over into all sorts of other areas where experts have an enormous contribution to make to the proper running of society"._
> 
> _"The fact that experts have been derided in this way does have an effect in undermining science and scientific evidence."_
> 
> _Sir Paul said the British public still has high levels of trust in scientists but we are living in a period where "opinion is on the front foot"._
> 
> _"Those who are expert, who have the knowledge, who have the intellectual ability to dissect these difficult problems, are being derided and pushed back," he said. _
> 
> _"My view about this is that it cannot last for very long, because opinion is not built on firm foundations and it rapidly falls apart. And I think we're seeing that already with, for example, Mr Trump. _
> 
> _"Science is built to last. Opinions are not built to last_."


This country is not finished but if you feel it is please do shut the door on the way out. No I don't think the leave campaign was xenophobic but I do think lies were told on both sides of the debate, which is something you seem to overlook. I credit the people of this country with more intelligence and common sense than you obviously do, they made up their minds and voted accordingly. At some point you will have to accept we are leaving the EU and stop trying to bring the country and everyone in it down. You say you are an atheist yet you feel you can judge how a god you don't even believe in would view things. You say you have been insulted and accused of all sorts but I'm afraid you do exactly that yourself. For goodness sake give it a chance. As for if I had an illness no I would not trust the opinions of medical experts without doing my own research first, I have before and will again go against their advice if I do not trust it which I frequently don't.



stockwellcat said:


> Message received* LOUD* and clear.
> 
> View attachment 303691
> 
> 
> I know when I am not wanted. I am out of here and PF and no I am not coming back this time.


Oh for goodness sake man do stop throwing your toys out of the pram. You have been goading the remainers with your memes and union jack waving posts so you can't complain when they get a bit tetchy with you.



leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> Bisbow,
> U ripped Noushka up one side & down the other b/c she "only posts _*quotes *_from '_*experts*_'... [whom U apparently don't regard as expert, but despise].
> .
> Then a few posts later, Noushka posted her personal opinion - & again U gave her holy H***, & Satori jumped in to add more vituperative criticism.
> .
> .
> let me just ask -
> if on this thread one cannot post FACTS from well-reputed sources, nor EXPECTATIONS published by professionals in that industry who'd be reasonably thought to know what the H*** they're talking about, & then in addition U can't post PERSONAL OPINIONS without someone verbally disemboweling U in a highly-critical post...
> what in heaven's name are others here _*"allowed" *_ to post?
> .
> .
> *What exactly,* Bisbow or Satori, *is anyone "permitted" to post on this thread?* - silly gifs? -- Charlie & the Chocolate Factory shots of Gene Wilder with funny captions?
> --- are we allowed to DISCUSS this issue, or only to make mean-spirited, barbed remarks, or to ridicule those who hold an opinion that we don't share?
> .
> .
> I'm for discussion - not name-calling, & not goofball pictures, which explain nothing & aren't pertinent.
> .
> .
> .


There has been mud slinging and ridicule of other people's opinions on both sides of the debate on this thread - name calling and accusations which most of us would not stand for in real life. Noush throws around insults and "labels" so I'm afraid if you dish it you have to be prepared to take it.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
so much for discussion.  Unsubbing. 
Life's too short - POTUS CombOver & his Godawful decisions in my nation's capitol --- which will affect not just the USA, but the world around us all --- are more than i want to even hear about on a daily basis. // There's more than enuf disheartening bad news IRL - i don't need 'extra' in my virtual life, when i hope to relax.
.
.


----------



## noushka05

rottiepointerhouse said:


> This country is not finished but if you feel it is please do shut the door on the way out. No I don't think the leave campaign was xenophobic but I do think lies were told on both sides of the debate, which is something you seem to overlook. I credit the people of this country with more intelligence and common sense than you obviously do, they made up their minds and voted accordingly. At some point you will have to accept we are leaving the EU and stop trying to bring the country and everyone in it down. You say you are an atheist yet you feel you can judge how a god you don't even believe in would view things. You say you have been insulted and accused of all sorts but I'm afraid you do exactly that yourself. For goodness sake give it a chance. As for if I had an illness no I would not trust the opinions of medical experts without doing my own research first, I have before and will again go against their advice if I do not trust it which I frequently don't.
> 
> Oh for goodness sake man do stop throwing your toys out of the pram. You have been goading the remainers with your memes and union jack waving posts so you can't complain when they get a bit tetchy with you.
> 
> There has been mud slinging and ridicule of other people's opinions on both sides of the debate on this thread - name calling and accusations which most of us would not stand for in real life. Noush throws around insults and "labels" so I'm afraid if you dish it you have to be prepared to take it.


You have faith in David Davis et al? His answers to Parliaments brexit committee PROVES this government are as clueless as they are reckless.

Does this honestly not concern you?










The fact that you don't think the leave campaign was xenophobic speaks volumes.

The progressive remain campaign wasn't based on lies. Every single reason the leave campaign gave for leaving the EU has now been exposed as a lie.

Was Theresa lying when she said this?










Trying to bring the country down - trying to save the country more like.

You don't need to believe to understand what having Christian values means - its the hypocrisy of these self professed 'Christians' that gets me..

But surely you admit, if you were diagnosed with a serious disease_ its more likely_ you would trust the clinical scientists to treat you?. It would be very unusual position to take to say 'I've done my own research & disagree with consensual position of experts'. Don't you think sometimes the consensual position can be criticized when in fact its most likely to be the correct position? Or do you really believe the man in the street can be better informed than people who have studied their subject for years?


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> Churchill also said
> "We have our own dream and our own task"


And Churchill's dream was another's nightmare....The Bengali famine

_'I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.' _Winston Churchill

Churchill, explained to his private secretary why he defended the stockpiling of food in Britain whilst millions died of starvation, told his private secretary

_'The Hindus are a foul race, protected by their mere pullulation from the doom that is their due'_







The only thing that set these poor people apart from Hitler's Jews, was their colour.


----------



## Calvine

leashedForLife said:


> I'm for discussion - not name-calling,


You have just got to be joking? What a pack of lies you write!! If anyone is guilty of name-calling, take a look at some of your posts on President Trump:

Trumpster
Trumpling
Prez Combover
The Hair-don't
The Repugnants
Prez-elect Hair
...to name but a few which immediately come to mind. What a hypocrite you are @leashedForLife!! It is all very well being ''buddies'' with someone, but at least stick to the facts (if that's within your capabilities) if you wish to retain any sort of credibility as a poster. You are as guilty of name-calling as anyone on PF...more so in fact.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> And Churchill's dream was another's nightmare....The Bengali famine
> 
> _'I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.' _Winston Churchill
> 
> Churchill, explained to his private secretary why he defended the stockpiling of food in Britain whilst millions died of starvation, told his private secretary
> 
> _'The Hindus are a foul race, protected by their mere pullulation from the doom that is their due'_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that set these poor people apart from Hitler's Jews, was their colour.


OMG 

And our country is complicit in the human catastrophe unfolding in the Yemen, where millions are starving to death due to the Saudi led blockade we support. The bombs dropped on these innocent people were also ours. Our arms industry is booming these days!


----------



## noushka05

Wow the difference between Theresa May's conference speech & Nicola Sturgeons. Theresa May used her speech to attack migrants - Nicola Sturgeon welcomed everyone;

"Scotland isn't 'full up'. If you are as appalled at the path this Westminster government is taking -

Come to Scotland. Be part of building a modern progressive outward looking country."

If only I had the opportunity I'd be off in a heartbeat. I would love my boys to move here, where its hope & inclusion instead of hate & intolerance.


----------



## Arnie83

FeelTheBern said:


> Some of them certainly are...enter Tony Blair.


I think there is a difference between being a bad loser and continuing to argue one's beliefs, though I suppose it depends on which side you happen to be. While there is a chance to mitigate the effects of Brexit - i.e. before it has happened - it seems almost a dereliction of duty to shrug and let the emboldened extreme Tory europhobics in May's government lead us to the edge of the highest cliff they can find and pull the country off with them.

Of course, bringing Tony Blair into the discussion to denigrate him, and all 'Remainers' by association, will garner several plaudits, but only from those who believe that his actions wrt Iraq somehow make anything else he says or does automatically wrong, which I would suggest is a little silly.


----------



## noushka05

*Scottish independence would ruin our Brexit deal, says Theresa May*
Prime Minister will attempt to appeal over the heads of Nationalists to the Scottish people

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ferendum-indyref2-brexit-latest-a7634386.html

Good.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> OMG
> 
> And our country is complicit in the human catastrophe unfolding in the Yemen, where millions are starving to death due to the Saudi led blockade we support. The bombs dropped on these innocent people were also ours. Our arms industry is booming these days!


War; in what ever form, is something I think we just have to accept now Noush'. The reduction of the global population by 2.5 billion has been on the table for a number of decades and was first introduced by (Dr) Henry Kissinger who said;

_'Depopulation should be the highest priority of U.S foreign policy towards the third world'_

They can't poison waterways or introduce a bacteria that might eventually become uncontrollable into the environment, but they can wage a series of never ending wars, unchallenged.
People might protest, as they often do, yet, as we are all too aware of, the wars continue regardless.

And remember, Noush', 500,000 dead Iraqi babies were worth the price for Iraq's WMD, according to Madeleine Albright.


----------



## Bisbow

.
.
.[/QUOTE]


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> War; in what ever form, is something I think we just have to accept now Noush'. The reduction of the global population by 2.5 billion has been on the table for a number of decades and was first introduced by (Dr) Henry Kissinger who said;
> 
> _'Depopulation should be the highest priority of U.S foreign policy towards the third world'_
> 
> They can't poison waterways or introduce a bacteria that might eventually become uncontrollable into the environment, but they can wage a series of never ending wars, unchallenged.
> People might protest, as they often do, yet, as we are all too aware of, the wars continue regardless.
> 
> And remember, Noush', 500,000 dead Iraqi babies were worth the price for Iraq's WMD, according to Madeleine Albright.


Its a sick world we live in. Kissinger, Blair, Bush, Cameron, May & so on are all morally bankrupt. These deliberate wars are really about resources aren't they? Greed of the west. The worlds riches concentrated in the hands of the few.

You take offence at what I post when I'm speaking generally, in case you've forgotten I wasn't the one who started with the personal insults @Bisbow.


----------



## Bisbow

I was going to write a long post in answer to discussion or other wise my lap top suddenly won't do quoats
I won't bother because I don't feel the need to keep defending myself to name callers


----------



## noushka05

John Major attacks 'ultra Brexiteers' for extreme views. (hes not wrong)

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-03-19/sir-john-major-attacks-ultra-brexiteers-for-extreme-views/
_
Sir John Major has launched a scathing attack on "ultra Brexiteers" inside the Conservative Party, saying they want to force a complete break with Europe._

_The former prime minister said that having won the referendum with "fake facts and bogus promise", the "ultras" were now shouting down any opposing views in a "totally un-British" way._

_Writing in The Mail on Sunday, he warned that if Britain failed to agree a deal with the EU, it would be "disadvantageous in every way_


----------



## noushka05

*Miles King*‏@*MilesKing10* Mar 16

It's fair to say that without #*toryelectionfraud* the Tories
would not have won the 2015 election and 
we would not now be leaving the EU


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Its a sick world we live in.These deliberate wars are really about resources The worlds riches concentrated in the hands of the few.


Ultimately, that is their end game. The absolute control of everything, including food and water.


----------



## noushka05

Iol

Breaking: the United Kingdom.

1,936 retweets 2,769 likes


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Seriously think this thread has run its course now, its getting childish and going round in ever decreasing circles. It really is very depressing for the future of our country as I just don't see how the two sides are ever going to be reconciled and work together. I don't envy the government trying to sort it out either.


That's why a compromise is needed, as I've suggested before.



Dr Pepper said:


> They'll be reconciled when the remainers see, in two years time, the arsehole of the world doesn't fall out, and just like the remainers threats before the vote everything is actually ok.


That I doubt very much. Why do you call it, "threats"? I think fears and concerns are more appropriate.

I think it's more likely some leave voters will switch sides it they're no longer able to afford holidays abroad amongst other things.


----------



## Zaros

Calvine said:


> You have just got to be joking? What a pack of lies you write!! If anyone is guilty of name-calling, take a look at some of your posts on President Trump:
> 
> Trumpster
> Trumpling
> Prez Combover
> The Hair-don't
> The Repugnants
> Prez-elect Hair
> ...to name but a few which immediately come to mind. What a hypocrite you are @leashedForLife!! It is all very well being ''buddies'' with someone, but at least stick to the facts (if that's within your capabilities) if you wish to retain any sort of credibility as a poster. You are as guilty of name-calling as anyone on PF...more so in fact.













_You have absolutely no idea of what this member has been capable of_​


----------



## FeelTheBern

Calvine said:


> Trumpster
> Trumpling
> Prez Combover
> The Hair-don't
> The Repugnants
> Prez-elect Hair


Let's not forget about "POTUS CombOver"...


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Hopefully TM can secure a deal for the EU citizens living over here in the early stages of the negotiations and then that is dealt with and remainers can stop calling leavers racist and xenophobic etc and the finger pointing can stop at us online?


So tell me, we are leaving the UK because being in the EU means we have no control over things like immigration. You know, we need to take back control, get rid of things like human rights when they are inconvenient, little things like that. You know so we can kick those foreigners out who take all the NHS places and homes. Yet you are now you are saying the EU can kick people out so we need to use EU nationals here as bargaining chip. Make up your mind.


----------



## noushka05

oops wrong thread


----------



## JuliaRoberts

I voted remain. I'm devastated with the outcome that we now face


----------



## noushka05

JuliaRoberts said:


> I voted remain. I'm devastated with the outcome that we now face


You're not the only one, Julia.

Welcome to the forum by the way


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> *Miles King*‏@*MilesKing10* Mar 16
> 
> It's fair to say that without #*toryelectionfraud* the Tories
> would not have won the 2015 election and
> we would not now be leaving the EU


But all's well that ends well.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> But all's well that ends well.


Cheats!


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Cheats!


Victors!


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Victors!


Carpetbaggers!


----------



## Happy Paws2

to PF



JuliaRoberts said:


> I voted remain. I'm devastated with the outcome that we now face


I voted remain as well, Oh well we'll just have to learn to live with the mess that's going to happen.


----------



## KittenKong

JuliaRoberts said:


> I voted remain. I'm devastated with the outcome that we now face


You're not alone. That's why we need to tell May and her far right government Hard Brexit isn't in our name. One of the reasons my wife and I are attending the Edinburgh march next Saturday. There's also one in London on the same day. See my separate thread for details.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/...edinburgh-march-for-europe-25th-march.444266/

Hardened Brexiteers will argue such events are a waste of time. I disagree as, not only do we need to show this government we also need to show Europe that Brexit isn't in our name and we stand united with them.

2016 certainly was the year of far right nationalism with Brexit and the subsequent election of Donald Trump. Some hardened Brexiteers were hoping for similar results across Europe which hasn't happened in Austria and Holland which is great news. Early days to predict elsewhere of course but I'm reasonably confident the people of Germany and France will also reject fascism.

Try not to be too despondent, I've felt rock bottom a few times believe me. That's why we're not sitting back and doing nothing.

Women didn't get the vote by putting up and shutting up, neither did the people of Poland fighting for free trade unions in the early '80s and of course the Poll Tax in 1989/1990 here. Some examples that come to mind.

On the morning after the referendum result I had to get petrol on my way to work. In comes another customer, "Aren't you proud to be British?!" He didn't get a reaction from myself (my face said it all) nor from the cashier much to his surprise.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39318822


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

noushka05 said:


> You have faith in David Davis et al? His answers to Parliaments brexit committee PROVES this government are as clueless as they are reckless.
> 
> Does this honestly not concern you?
> 
> View attachment 303710
> 
> 
> The fact that you don't think the leave campaign was xenophobic speaks volumes.
> 
> The progressive remain campaign wasn't based on lies. Every single reason the leave campaign gave for leaving the EU has now been exposed as a lie.
> 
> Was Theresa lying when she said this?
> 
> View attachment 303709
> 
> 
> Trying to bring the country down - trying to save the country more like.
> 
> You don't need to believe to understand what having Christian values means - its the hypocrisy of these self professed 'Christians' that gets me..
> 
> But surely you admit, if you were diagnosed with a serious disease_ its more likely_ you would trust the clinical scientists to treat you?. It would be very unusual position to take to say 'I've done my own research & disagree with consensual position of experts'. Don't you think sometimes the consensual position can be criticized when in fact its most likely to be the correct position? Or do you really believe the man in the street can be better informed than people who have studied their subject for years?


No Noush I do not have faith in David Davis et al, Please stop putting words into my mouth and telling me who I have faith in and what I think and why. Their dishonesty (along with the dishonesty of the remain campaigners) does not concern me because I didn't listen to it and wasn't influenced by it in the first place. Please stop telling me what you "think" I would do if diagnosed with a serious illness and who I would trust, you do not know enough about me and my beliefs to decide what I would or would not do. I do not share your faith in "so called experts" anymore than I share you faith in celebrity tweeters or your belief that this country is finished. You have deteriorated into name calling and attaching labels to people who don't happen to agree with you. How is that compassionate and caring? or do only people who agree with you get your compassion? By the way I don't think you ever got round to telling me what you actually do for the refugees rather than just talking about them? Some of us you accuse of being xenophobic and racist regularly donate to the charities doing work on the ground. Perhaps you volunteer and give your time? I think you told me last time I asked that it was none of my business yet you feel entitled to demand the reasons why people voted to leave and entitled to make your own version up of why if they tell you to mind yours.


----------



## 4leafclover

I was born in Eire (Those that don't know that's the Republic of Ireland) and spent most of my adult life in England studying and working. I was deeply upset about the referendum result and now I am in the process of giving my life up here in England and moving back to Dublin. I don't want to be in England when the negotiations begin and when the UK leaves the EU. 

You are in for a shock because the UK is not in for an easy ride from the EU leaders and the Irish PM is seeking to unite Ireland or at least secure the rights to do so.

It is horrible how people are being treated over here, a couple of my friends from Ireland who worked and lived over here were in a pub and were verbally harassed and told to go home by those that confronted them (this is the short version of what actually happened). They did go home and said they are never coming back to the England. It really shows how nasty people can be over here.

I can't wait to go back to Dublin and start over again. I am currently working my notice at work and when then finishes I am gone (2 weeks time). My partner is already in Dublin after leaving England last week with our pets. I really do not feel
welcome over here anymore.


----------



## KittenKong

4leafclover said:


> It is horrible how people are being treated over here, a couple of my friends from Ireland who worked and lived over here were in a pub and were verbally harassed and told to go home by those that confronted them (this is the short version of what actually happened). They did go home and said they are never coming back to the England. It really shows how nasty people can be over here.


You are so right there. Even though I'm English I have personal experience of this. Living through childhood in the North and South of England resulted in a "confused" accent I never fully overcame on returning to North East England when I was 18 in the '80s. Around this time some idiots in a pub thought I was Irish. Irish = IRA to them. I couldn't get out of the pub quickly enough.

When we next move, it'll be North of the Scottish border....


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

4leafclover said:


> I was born in Eire (Those that don't know that's the Republic of Ireland) and spent most of my adult life in England studying and working. I was deeply upset about the referendum result and now I am in the process of giving my life up here in England and moving back to Dublin. I don't want to be in England when the negotiations begin and when the UK leaves the EU.
> 
> You are in for a shock because the UK is not in for an easy ride from the EU leaders and the Irish PM is seeking to unite Ireland or at least secure the rights to do so.
> 
> It is horrible how people are being treated over here, a couple of my friends from Ireland who worked and lived over here were in a pub and were verbally harassed and told to go home by those that confronted them (this is the short version of what actually happened). They did go home and said they are never coming back to the England. It really shows how nasty people can be over here.
> 
> I can't wait to go back to Dublin and start over again. I am currently working my notice at work and when then finishes I am gone (2 weeks time). My partner is already in Dublin after leaving England last week with our pets. I really do not feel
> welcome over here anymore.


Welcome to pet forums - interesting first post. With the greatest of respect there have always been people who are prejudiced. I used to work in social services in London in the 1980's and we employed many care staff from Ireland (as well as from the West Indies and Africa) - a certain percentage of our elderly clients would not accept Irish carers any more than they would accept black carers. I found the same when I was nursing too, a certain percentage of patients expressed a wish not to be looked after by Irish or black nurses. It was unacceptable then and its unacceptable now (and we had procedures for dealing with it) but the point I'm making is that this behaviour is not because of our decision to leave the EU but is down to the small mindedness of some people. I wish you well with your life back in Dublin.


----------



## Calvine

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Welcome to pet forums - interesting first post. With the greatest of respect there have always been people who are prejudiced. I used to work in social services in London in the 1980's and we employed many care staff from Ireland (as well as from the West Indies and Africa) - a certain percentage of our elderly clients would not accept Irish carers any more than they would accept black carers. I found the same when I was nursing too, a certain percentage of patients expressed a wish not to be looked after by Irish or black nurses. It was unacceptable then and its unacceptable now (and we had procedures for dealing with it) but the point I'm making is that this behaviour is not because of our decision to leave the EU but is down to the small mindedness of some people. I wish you well with your life back in Dublin.


There will always be prejudice, as @rottiepointerhouse points out. There always has been. It is not 100 years since people advertising a spare room would make a note on the ad: No Blacks. No Irish. No Dogs. Totally true. Shocking indeed but nothing to do with the referendum. I also do remember some years back when my son and friends were in Dublin (think it was for football) and he was surprised that many of the ''locals'' went out of their way, even crossed over a road, to tell them in no uncertain terms how little they thought of them. It happens.
I hope you and your friends will be very happy back home!


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Welcome to pet forums - interesting first post. With the greatest of respect there have always been people who are prejudiced. I used to work in social services in London in the 1980's and we employed many care staff from Ireland (as well as from the West Indies and Africa) - a certain percentage of our elderly clients would not accept Irish carers any more than they would accept black carers. I found the same when I was nursing too, a certain percentage of patients expressed a wish not to be looked after by Irish or black nurses. It was unacceptable then and its unacceptable now (and we had procedures for dealing with it) but the point I'm making is that this behaviour is not because of our decision to leave the EU but is down to the small mindedness of some people. I wish you well with your life back in Dublin.


The thing is though, the referendum has re-opened many of these old wounds with the, "Britain for the British" mentality expressed by some.

Witnesses the growth of hate crimes for example, and how many hard working citizens are considering leaving the UK, if allowed to stay at all (still very much in the dark at the moment), through being made to feel unwelcome nor appreciated.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> There will always be prejudice, as @rottiepointerhouse points out. There always has been. It is not 100 years since people advertising a spare room would make a note on the ad: No Blacks. No Irish. No Dogs. Totally true. Shocking indeed but *nothing to do with the referendum*.


While the referendum cannot be blamed, I think the result has certainly emboldened some of the more hard-of-thinking elements in society. They feel -wrongly - that their obnoxious views have been somehow legitimised. It must be difficult for those on the receiving end to remember that these are just a tiny minority of idiots.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> some idiots in a pub thought I was Irish.


Me too, someone, out of the blue and for no reason, suddenly demanded to know if I was Irish. I'm not, but I couldn't help wondering what they would have said or done if I'd said that I was.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> The thing is though, the referendum has re-opened many of these old wounds with the, "Britain for the British" mentality expressed by some.
> 
> Witnesses the growth of hate crimes for example, and how many hard working citizens are considering leaving the UK, if allowed to stay at all (still very much in the dark at the moment), through being made to feel unwelcome nor appreciated.


I don't think those "old wounds" ever went away though, the BNP/NF type of yob has always been there. I sincerely hope that any decent citizen whether they voted to leave or remain would make it clear to anyone expressing such prejudice that they don't agree and do not wish to be in any way associated with it.


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted


----------



## 4leafclover

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Welcome to pet forums - interesting first post.


I have now introduced myself in the appropriate area, perhaps I should have done this first. So sorry for jumping straight in here on this thread.

I am slowly working my way down the website, there's so much to read.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Time to reflect on some older posts on this thread I think:
> View attachment 303754
> View attachment 303755
> View attachment 303756
> View attachment 303757
> 
> 
> Much later SWC argued people knew exactly what they were voting for!
> 
> No mention of a hard Brexit here, I didn't see that debate but I seem to get the impression a "hard Brexit" was dismissed as, "Scaremongering"?


What on earth is that going to achieve?


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I sincerely hope that any decent citizen whether they voted to leave or remain would make it clear to anyone expressing such prejudice that they don't agree and do not wish to be in any way associated with it.


Trouble is they do not. Referendum has polarised things. Of the friends I have in the UK, I know of no foreign person, living in the UK, who has not experienced some form of verbal abuse since the referendum. Ok, hardly proof but a worrying apparent trend.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Goblin said:


> Trouble is they do not. Referendum has polarised things. Of the friends I have in the UK, I know of no foreign person, living in the UK, who has not experienced some form of verbal abuse since the referendum. Ok, hardly proof but a worrying apparent trend.


How do you know they don't? Also are your friends seriously saying they never experienced such verbal abuse before the referendum? as I said working in the NHS and social services in the 80's and 90's it was commonplace.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> What on earth is that going to achieve?


Perhaps in the hope the posters could explain themselves before criticising others?

Nevertheless, I have not joined forums to intentionally cause conflict with others and have therefore deleted the post.

The posts I quoted from June last year remain in this thread of course however.


----------



## Calvine

I am British, but I have had verbal abuse since the referendum from both British and non-British people; it happens. My son was verbally abused with really foul language trying to help a woman with crutches off the bus, told (by her) to mind his own effing business. He is British, so was she. It happens, referendum or not. Brexit or not. It always has happened but at one time people just got on with their life without blaming anything. Just like bullying has always happened (different now because of social media, of course) but our parents told us to stop snivelling and whining and poncing around; so we did.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> How do you know they don't? Also are your friends seriously saying they never experienced such verbal abuse before the referendum? as I said working in the NHS and social services in the 80's and 90's it was commonplace.


Many people I work with were born in the '80s and '90s so will have thankfully not experienced this kind of horrendous discrimination.

But the referendum has changed all that.
Some rejoice at the thought of returning to the "good old days".......


----------



## KittenKong

This is interesting:
http://www.bca1960.com/index.php/bc...robinson-presenter,-today-program,-bbc-2.html

.
















Some fantastic curry houses across the EU including the UK by the way.


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Also are your friends seriously saying they never experienced such verbal abuse before the referendum? as I said working in the NHS and social services in the 80's and 90's it was commonplace.


No they hadn't experienced the abuse before the referendum. One has lived in the UK for over 15 years. Whilst it's always been around, the referendum with it's emphasis on bad foreigners has polarised the attitutes of some and given the "excuse" that it's accepted. Look through history, foreigners are one of the first scapegoats to divert attention from a country's problems.


----------



## Zaros

Calvine said:


> There will always be prejudice, as @rottiepointerhouse points out. There always has been. It is not 100 years since people advertising a spare room would make a note on the ad: No Blacks. No Irish. No Dogs



*Nat a ting be true, womaarn. 
You arl be wrong.
Signs be readin', No West Indians, and no culaards.*









*
See, you arl can read it 'ere;* https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/oct/21/no-irish-no-blacks-no-dogs-no-proof​


----------



## Colliebarmy

It is a fact that a majority of a minority can object to a majority decision then become a majority of a minority


----------



## Colliebarmy

KittenKong said:


> This is interesting:
> http://www.bca1960.com/index.php/bc...robinson-presenter,-today-program,-bbc-2.html
> 
> View attachment 303761
> View attachment 303763
> 
> 
> Some fantastic curry houses across the EU, including the UK incidentally.


Er, the British started the whole trade!

(Back in the days of the Raj)


----------



## Colliebarmy

Zaros said:


> *Nat a ting be true, womaarn.
> You arl be wrong.
> Signs be readin', No West Indians, and no culaards.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> See, you arl can read it 'ere;* https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/oct/21/no-irish-no-blacks-no-dogs-no-proof​


When we lived in Snowdonia a house near Harlech had a sign outside

"Wanted, Roofers, No Scousers need apply"

I knew a scouser who got a roofing job, went up, sat on the roof with another guy and both had the longest *** break before starting work before which the lad said to the 1 i knew..........."youy dont know how to do it either do yous"


----------



## Zaros

Colliebarmy said:


> When we lived in Snowdonia a house near Harlech had a sign outside
> 
> "Wanted, Roofers, No Scousers need apply"
> 
> I knew a scouser who got a roofing job, went up, sat on the roof with another guy and both had the longest *** break before starting work before which the lad said to the 1 i knew..........."youy dont know how to do it either do yous"


Hmm. I recall Ann Robinson stirring up a bit of a storm with her remarks about the 'good' people of Liverpool, on the weakest link. :Facepalm

Is their credibility really that questionable.


----------



## stuaz

Goblin said:


> Trouble is they do not. Referendum has polarised things. Of the friends I have in the UK, I know of no foreign person, living in the UK, who has not experienced some form of verbal abuse since the referendum. Ok, hardly proof but a worrying apparent trend.


Well you now know one. I personally haven't experienced any verbal abuse relating to my nationality since the referendum.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Well you now know one. I personally haven't experienced any verbal abuse relating to my nationality since the referendum.


Well I'm glad to hear that and hope you never will.

Just because you have thankfully not experienced this doesn't mean others haven't.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Well I'm glad to hear that and hope you never will.
> 
> Just because you have thankfully not experienced this doesn't mean others haven't.


Never said others don't, was merely responding to the point made by the other poster.

The difference being is that people who experience no issues are less vocal than those who may, thus it can _appear_ one sided, especially if the media is involved...


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have come on here to apologise if I have got on anyone's nerves or have been out of order in any way. I am not a bad person you know and I am sorry if my postings have been a bit overboard on this thread.

I just wanted to clear the air with everyone.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I have come on here to apologise if I have got on anyone's nerves or have been out of order in any way. I am not a bad person you know and I am sorry if my postings have been a bit overboard on this thread.
> 
> I just wanted to clear the air with everyone.


A cat lover can't ever be a bad person, regardless of political views.

None of us are perfect, nor can we be expected to agree on everything discussed here.

At the end of the day we're all pet lovers which is why we joined the forum in the first place.

Regardless of our views on politics we all do have the love of our pets in common.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> I have come on here to apologise if I have got on anyone's nerves or have been out of order in any way. I am not a bad person you know and I am sorry if my postings have been a bit overboard on this thread.
> 
> I just wanted to clear the air with everyone.


No need to apologise, it can be heated on here at times and we are all as bad as each other at times.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

stockwellcat said:


> I have come on here to apologise if I have got on anyone's nerves or have been out of order in any way. I am not a bad person you know and I am sorry if my postings have been a bit overboard on this thread.
> 
> I just wanted to clear the air with everyone.


Forget about it, we can all get a bit carried away especially in political threads :Shamefullyembarrased


----------



## rona

Fuel is down another penny and yesterday apparently 15 English men were attacked and beaten yesterday in Dublin by 15 other guys dressed in green


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think it's time this thread was closed it been running far to long abd getting no where.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> I think it's time this thread was closed it been running far to long abd getting no where.


Think it makes sense.
We still have two years to shape up that Brexit.
Which so far means Brexit and not much more.
I find it very hard to talk about Brexit to those who voted for it. Especially if they actually know and understand how it will affect others, but just can't cate less about the less fortunate who are vulnerable.

I can forgive ignorant who just fell for lies.

After all Syrians or Ukrainians have more reasons to complain about the unfairness of it all.
Clever fat cats directed the mob to chase " benefit seekers" or " health tourists" or seek " freedom"...
Now they will #take control".

This all that it is about if you see who bankrolled the whole campaign and why.









I think Heseltine has pretty good understanding of what is behind Brexit.
He was always a brave man, for one thing.
He is now. He is not afraid to lose his gov jobs, has enough money not to be bullied.

Merkel also plays a bit of a strange game.

Did she actually want Britain out?
She knew how her ( not EU) decisions on immigrants would be taken ( when she, not EU, would demand to distribute people she invited under threat of financial punishment).

Britain should NOT have gone out but stood up to things that are not right in EU.

Get the balance right and this I sorely regret.
Now we will have much weaker, disunited, vulnerable country.
Well...I might have no country at all.
@Goblin , I really do not understand what game Merkel plays...
Very, very odd.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Dear me, you're comparing this to a game of football with no thought for people's lives. I take what Cheeky is going through in Gibraltar is of no concern to you?
> 
> No wonder many leavers have a reputation of being nasty and bigoted with a comment like that.


What exactly qualifies you to suggest what is nasty and bigoted? What right


Goblin said:


> Yet the personal attacks come from leavers. Interesting that.
> 
> Strange that when people say they weren't influenced by the leave campaign but that's the only thing they can provide. Anything else and it's "don't need to justify myself". Well when evidence points to harming the UK you do need to justify yourself if you expect people to unite.


Oh! So you remainers are lily white then? You/they/them dish it out be assured it will be returned!


----------



## Jesthar

rottiepointerhouse said:


> How do you know they don't? Also are your friends seriously saying they never experienced such verbal abuse before the referendum? as I said working in the NHS and social services in the 80's and 90's it was commonplace.


I think when comments are phrased in a manner along the lines of "We voted for you to be sent home, so hurry up and go back where you came from you <expletive>" (rephrase and insert extra expletives to taste) you can be pretty sure where the current confidence many suddenly have to say such things has come from. I work in an area where we rely on overseas specialists, and also have a lot of medical ties in the family, and there can be no doubting the increase in overt prejudice.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I hope this thread isn't going to go on and on and on like this for the next 2 years year. :Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I hope this thread isn't going to go on and on and on like this for the next 2 years year. :Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored


With much strong feeling here and elsewhere I see the Sabre post referendum thread has reached nearly 280 pages!


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> I hope this thread isn't going to go on and on and on like this for the next 2 years year. :Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored


Indeed: if it's like this now, can you imagine what it will be like when Brexit actually happens?:Jawdrop God help us then.


----------



## noushka05

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No Noush I do not have faith in David Davis et al, Please stop putting words into my mouth and telling me who I have faith in and what I think and why. Their dishonesty (along with the dishonesty of the remain campaigners) does not concern me because I didn't listen to it and wasn't influenced by it in the first place. Please stop telling me what you "think" I would do if diagnosed with a serious illness and who I would trust, you do not know enough about me and my beliefs to decide what I would or would not do. I do not share your faith in "so called experts" anymore than I share you faith in celebrity tweeters or your belief that this country is finished. You have deteriorated into name calling and attaching labels to people who don't happen to agree with you. How is that compassionate and caring? or do only people who agree with you get your compassion? By the way I don't think you ever got round to telling me what you actually do for the refugees rather than just talking about them? Some of us you accuse of being xenophobic and racist regularly donate to the charities doing work on the ground. Perhaps you volunteer and give your time? I think you told me last time I asked that it was none of my business yet you feel entitled to demand the reasons why people voted to leave and entitled to make your own version up of why if they tell you to mind yours.


So you have no faith in David Davis et al either - but you believe the county will better off outside the EU... Hmm ok.

Please tell me in what way were the progressives for remain dishonest?

All I'm saying is it would certainly be very unusual to go against the consensual position - most people would trust the experts know better then they do. But hey ho.

When people come on here asking advice about a seriously sick animal they aren't usually told to do their own research - they are urged to take it to the experts ASAP.

The pro badger cullers also deride & undermine the consensual position of experts. The experts evaluated the scientific evidence in the RBCTs & found that 'culling badgers can make no meaningful difference to the control of bTB in cattle - & can make things worse'. The pro-cullers (with no expertise on the science), ignored the experts, cherry-picked bits of the evidence & made their case for culling - claiming it was built on the science - when infact it goes against the science. So we now have a situation where thousands of innocent badgers have paid the ultimate price - & tens of thousands more are going to pay - & bTB is spreading....because people think they have a better insight than experts!

You keep throwing back celebrity tweeters at me - let me just put you straight once & for all. I certainly don't look to celebrities for my information- if they say something I like its simply because it resonates with me. Celebrities do not shape my views only solid evidence & my own moral conscience can do that. That's why I only follow celebs who care about animals or have a social or environmental conscience.

Debates get heated, I am clumsy with my wording at times, I admit that. So I apologise for upsetting anyone. But you are no angel either RPH 

I do not apologise for anything I've said about dishonest hypocrites like Theresa May. I'm not a Christian - I have 0 compassion for people who abuse animals or children. And I have 0 compassion for the likes of Theresa May who is destroying lives with her cruel policies - while professing her Christianity....

I haven't accused anyone on here of being xenophobic - this government is, the leave campaign was xenophobic. You just cant seem to see it. Migrants have been used as scapegoats for the ills of this country, when in reality they are actually an asset.

Anyway they no longer feel welcome here anymore. I'm so glad I've played no part in this -
*
Record numbers of EU nurses quit NHS *

*Staffing crisis worsens as workers fear being unwelcome after Brexit*

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurses-quit-record-numbers?CMP=twt_gu

All over twitter there are individual EU migrants saying they no longer feel welcome. Is this the kind of Britain we really want? Its certainly not for me that's for sure.

Here's one such tweet -

_What have we the EU citizens living in the UK done that is so wrong & offensive to deserve being treated in such a vile way?
_
I'll tell you what I've done for refugees. I'm a member of a party that fights for refugees, that holds the government to account on their dreadful treatment of refugees. https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/...untries-where-they-were-abused-is-a-disgrace/

I've done 3 of the 4 below ( & my eldest & his girlfriend recently went on a 'refugees welcome' march. Not me I know, but I am extremely proud of them both.)

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/03/17...aking-plea-children-europes-forgotten-crisis/

_If people want to practically help, they can firstly give money. Bartley says there are lots of organisations out there; you can find them on the internet and Facebook. He says that if you can't give money, you can give food. There are trucks going out there. And you can write to your MPs to keep this on the public agenda. And in Bartley's own words, you can "kick up a stink about it"._


----------



## noushka05

Pro brexit Countryfile viewers threaten to boycott the show:Hilarious http://linkis.com/www.express.co.uk/sh/hPhlB


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39318822
> 
> View attachment 303733





KittenKong said:


> View attachment 303734
> 
> 
> Brilliant.


Excellent - both of them!



4leafclover said:


> I was born in Eire (Those that don't know that's the Republic of Ireland) and spent most of my adult life in England studying and working. I was deeply upset about the referendum result and now I am in the process of giving my life up here in England and moving back to Dublin. I don't want to be in England when the negotiations begin and when the UK leaves the EU.
> 
> You are in for a shock because the UK is not in for an easy ride from the EU leaders and the Irish PM is seeking to unite Ireland or at least secure the rights to do so.
> 
> It is horrible how people are being treated over here, a couple of my friends from Ireland who worked and lived over here were in a pub and were verbally harassed and told to go home by those that confronted them (this is the short version of what actually happened). They did go home and said they are never coming back to the England. It really shows how nasty people can be over here.
> 
> I can't wait to go back to Dublin and start over again. I am currently working my notice at work and when then finishes I am gone (2 weeks time). My partner is already in Dublin after leaving England last week with our pets. I really do not feel
> welcome over here anymore.


I am truly sorry you've been made to feel this way. Where has our inclusive, outward looking county gone? It makes me feel so sad.


----------



## noushka05

'The Man Without A Plan'


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Jesthar said:


> I think when comments are phrased in a manner along the lines of "We voted for you to be sent home, so hurry up and go back where you came from you <expletive>" (rephrase and insert extra expletives to taste) you can be pretty sure where the current confidence many suddenly have to say such things has come from. I work in an area where we rely on overseas specialists, and also have a lot of medical ties in the family, and there can be no doubting the increase in overt prejudice.


With respect those were the exact same comments that were frequently heard in the 80's and 90's. Anyone who works in the medical/care profession and is or appears to be "foreign" will have heard those expressions hundreds of times over. I think whereas it was mainly directed at black people, Indians and Irish it is now also directed at Europeans.


----------



## Jesthar

rottiepointerhouse said:


> With respect those were the exact same comments that were frequently heard in the 80's and 90's. Anyone who works in the medical/care profession and is or appears to be "foreign" will have heard those expressions hundreds of times over. I think whereas it was mainly directed at black people, Indians and Irish it is now also directed at Europeans.


I never said they weren't. However, like most decent folk I had rather hoped we had actually made some significant progress on leaving such bigoted attitudes behind in the last couple of decades. Much the same as it is no longer considered acceptable for men to casually and openly feel up female colleagues in the office, or riducule those with mental health conditions.

Again, that's not to say such things and other offensive behaviours don't happen, but at least some progress has been made. And personally, I'd rather we didn't return to openly embracing public expression of such demeaning and mean spirited actions.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Jesthar said:


> I never said they weren't. However, like most decent folk I had rather hoped we had actually made some significant progress on leaving such bigoted attitudes behind in the last couple of decades. Much the same as it is no longer considered acceptable for men to casually and openly feel up female colleagues in the office, or riducule those with mental health conditions.
> 
> Again, that's not to say such things and other offensive behaviours don't happen, but at least some progress has been made. And personally, I'd rather we didn't return to openly embracing public expression of such demeaning and mean spirited actions.


I quite agree, I don't want to see those views being openly expressed either but was making the point to an earlier poster that those views are sadly nothing new.


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I quite agree, I don't want to see those views being openly expressed either but was making the point to an earlier poster that those views are sadly nothing new.


You see this is what I don't get.. It's almost a refusal to acknowledge simple facts.

The leave campaign's foundation (other than general lies) was xenophobia and a call for nationalism (note not patriotism)

The resugence of abuse towards foreigners is a direct response to the referendum campaign
Making excuses for it even now will contrinue to encourage those who are racist. Doesn't matter how often you say you don't agree if you also on the other hand make excuses for it.
Then again, without the immigration and a call for nationalism what is there to the leave campaign?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Goblin said:


> You see this is what I don't get.. It's almost a refusal to acknowledge simple facts.
> 
> The leave campaign's foundation (other than general lies) was xenophobia and a call for nationalism (note not patriotism)
> 
> The resugence of abuse towards foreigners is a direct response to the referendum campaign
> Making excuses for it even now will contrinue to encourage those who are racist. Doesn't matter how often you say you don't agree if you also on the other hand make excuses for it.
> Then again, without the immigration and a call for nationalism what is there to the leave campaign?


Explaining that something has always happened/been there is not excusing it. Rape and domestic violence have always happened to women, saying they have always happened is not the same as excusing it. IMO excusing it would be to say it doesn't matter or to say well they only think that way because xyz happened to their ancestors. I made it quite clear that when it happened in the 80's and 90's in the NHS and social services we had procedures in place to deal with it. That is not excusing it. If comments of a racist nature are made to me I make it clear those comments do not reflect my views and are not acceptable to me. How is that excusing it?


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> The leave campaign's foundation (other than general lies) was xenophobia and a call for nationalism (note not patriotism)


No it wasn't.


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> No it wasn't.


So we can ignore the posters of Foreigners entering the UK then and how they take away social services, housing, schools, damage the NHS etc. We can ignore the calls for how we could succeed just as the empire in the past succeeded. Fun thing is, even May has conceded that it was the primary consideration for the leave campaign which is why "free movement" is non-negotiable with the EU.

Thank you for proving my point about denial.


----------



## Bisbow

This thread is reminding me of the song "Windmills of my mind"

Round and around and around and getting nowhere, just the same old rhetoric and bad mouthing and getting more and more nasty as time goes on

But of course it is only the outers who are the nasty ones, the remainers are perfect


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> This thread is reminding me of the song "Windmills of my mind"
> 
> Round and around and around and getting nowhere, just the same old rhetoric and bad mouthing and getting more and more nasty as time goes on
> 
> But of course it is only the outers who are the nasty ones, *the remainers are perfect*


Why, thank you!

One does try one's best.


----------



## Bisbow

Unfortunately your best is not good enough


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> Unfortunately your best is not good enough


Ah well; the important thing is to retain your sense of humour.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Yippee Wednesday 29th we start the process of leaving the EU. Exciting times ahead.


----------



## Bisbow

Listen, you can hear the wailing and chest beating


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> Listen, you can hear the wailing and chest beating


Apropos your admonishment just a few posts above, would you say that this comment is designed to reduce the level of acrimony?


----------



## Bisbow

No. just feel like getting one in first before the vitriol starts


----------



## Goblin

Watching an avalanche roaring towards you is exciting. Doesn't mean the result will work out well.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> So we can ignore the posters of Foreigners


The poster you mention (or the one I think you mention) actually appeared as a photo in many papers some time before the referendum. It was only when it was used for a campaign poster that it was considered 'contentious'. No-one had said much, if anything, about it until it was used as a pro-Brexit instrument. And the migrants on the photo/poster were not EU ones.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Goblin said:


> Watching an avalanche roaring towards you is exciting. Doesn't mean the result will work out well.


Doesn't mean it won't either


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Listen, you can hear the wailing and chest beating


Looking forward to March 29th then.


----------



## Bisbow

I take it that is you admitting defeat


----------



## cheekyscrip

The real shame is that only Britain had real chance to balance German/ France axis ( with Austria and Belgium backing those two).
Poland supported Britain and is very sorry seeing it go and power shift to Germany.

Britain had support of Spain and Portugal, Italy and Greece happy to join them too.
Poland could have support of Hungary and the rest of Vyshehrad group.
Such a shame.

France never really wanted Britain in EU.

Now Germany with France will take firm lead.


While wounded Britain will just fight for survival.

This is why I ask:

What game Merkel plays?


She is very astute , she knew how Britain will feel about being forced under pecuniary punishment to receive immigrants actually invited by Merkel, not by EU.

Plus pitiful deal Cameron got.


So isn't it in many ways good for Germany to have Britain out of EU?

As economy Britain is now behind France.

City will lose too. While Frankfurt will gain.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> The real shame is that only Britain had real chance to balance German/ France axis ( with Austria and Belgium backing those two).
> Poland supported Britain and is very sorry seeing it go and power shift to Germany.
> 
> Britain had support of Spain and Portugal, Italy and Greece happy to join them too.
> Poland could have support of Hungary and the rest of Vyshehrad group.
> Such a shame.
> 
> France never really wanted Britain in EU.
> 
> Now Germany with France will take firm lead.
> 
> While wounded Britain will just fight for survival.
> 
> This is why I ask:
> 
> What game Merkel plays?
> 
> She is very astute , she knew how Britain will feel about being forced under pecuniary punishment to receive immigrants actually invited by Merkel, not by EU.
> 
> Plus pitiful deal Cameron got.
> 
> So isn't it in many ways good for Germany to have Britain out of EU?
> 
> As economy Britain is now behind France.
> 
> City will lose too. While Frankfurt will gain.


Perhaps the U.K. should start its own version of the EU with those countries you name and gang up on France and Germany


----------



## cheekyscrip

... Sadly Britain decided play dead.
IMO Britain was bringing lot of good things to EU.
Diversity. Not that I have anything against Germany, France etc..

But Merkel's decisions puzzle me a lot.
If in a group we have one or two strong players only that is not the best for the smaller fry....

I would rather have balance. 
Are you from Spain?


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> ... Sadly Britain decided play dead.
> IMO Britain was bringing lot of good things to EU.
> Diversity. Not that I have anything against Germany, France etc..
> 
> But Merkel's decisions puzzle me a lot.
> If in a group we have one or two strong players only that is not the best for the smaller fry....
> 
> I would rather have balance.
> Are you from Spain?


I do agree with you there, dispite the UK'S "left foot in, right foot out" attitude towards the EU, I do believe it provided some balance and voice against Germany/France, particularly for the smaller countries. Now I think the EU will simply become Germany's club, which I don't think benefits anyone, inside or outside the EU.

And no I'm not from Spain


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> What game Merkel plays?


Remember this one? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33555619

Put simply Merkel wanted to do the right thing as far as refugees were concerned. She didn't expect the horde and was afraid to admit she was wrong when it went pear shape. Politicians are not renown for admitting mistakes. The german mentality is also different. You had the east/west divide when freedom in the east was a dream. You have the idea that every German of her generation was brought up that WWII was their personal fault.The idea of "federalism" works in Germany.

Then you have the position of the UK within the EU. Whilst they had influence and Germany wanted their participation, the UK always held itself apart. Control of things like immigration, whilst the UK government didn't do anything, the ability was there. So what was the EU supposed to do, change rules according to failures specified in the UK media or actually see if the rules actually needed changing for the majority of countries? Let's face it, the UK population have been lied to about the EU for years and used as a scapegoat for the UK's ills. Let's look at the UK:

Veto on other country membership (Turkey for example)
Veto for any possibility of an EU army

Not responsible for funding any more bailout of countries such as Greece
Not in the Euro
Not in the Schengen Area
Larger fishing quota than a "fair" allocation.
That's one of the problems of Brexit. If we leave, rejoining with the same advantages will be impossible.

I know you say France and Germany will now run the EU. Not strictly true. Germany is on the losing side of votes within the EU more than any other country other than the UK. These democratic votes being the way policy is decided.

Germany wanted the UK in the EU and they still do. They believe in democracy and the fact other countries should make their own policies however. How far should they have bent at the expense of their own country's goals and needs?


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Doesn't mean it won't either


So who would you trust to avoid setting off the avalanche or the best way to survive it, the politician living elsewhere or the mountain guide?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Goblin said:


> So who would you trust to avoid setting off the avalanche or the best way to survive it, the politician living elsewhere or the mountain guide?


Not a politician from the EU that is for sure.


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not a politician from the EU that is for sure.


So Farage, Gove, Johnson and Ian Duncan Smith you do as they are the main politicians concerned.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> So Farage, Gove, Johnson and Ian Duncan Smith you do as they are the main politicians concerned.


Sigh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Farage has no power


----------



## Goblin

Sigh,,,,,,, Still a politician who people continue to believe.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Goblin said:


> So Farage, Gove, Johnson and Ian Duncan Smith you do as they are the main politicians concerned.


I'm not aware Farage is still a politician nor has any role in negotiating our exit from the EU. Do I trust the others under the leadership of Mrs May? more so than I trust Merkel et al to do what is right for us.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Remember this one? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33555619
> 
> Put simply Merkel wanted to do the right thing as far as refugees were concerned. She didn't expect the horde and was afraid to admit she was wrong when it went pear shape. Politicians are not renown for admitting mistakes. The german mentality is also different. You had the east/west divide when freedom in the east was a dream. You have the idea that every German of her generation was brought up that WWII was their personal fault.The idea of "federalism" works in Germany.
> 
> Then you have the position of the UK within the EU. Whilst they had influence and Germany wanted their participation, the UK always held itself apart. Control of things like immigration, whilst the UK government didn't do anything, the ability was there. So what was the EU supposed to do, change rules according to failures specified in the UK media or actually see if the rules actually needed changing for the majority of countries? Let's face it, the UK population have been lied to about the EU for years and used as a scapegoat for the UK's ills. Let's look at the UK:
> 
> Veto on other country membership (Turkey for example)
> Veto for any possibility of an EU army
> 
> Not responsible for funding any more bailout of countries such as Greece
> Not in the Euro
> Not in the Schengen Area
> Larger fishing quota than a "fair" allocation.
> That's one of the problems of Brexit. If we leave, rejoining with the same advantages will be impossible.
> 
> I know you say France and Germany will now run the EU. Not strictly true. Germany is on the losing side of votes within the EU more than any other country other than the UK. These democratic votes being the way policy is decided.
> 
> Germany wanted the UK in the EU and they still do. They believe in democracy and the fact other countries should make their own policies however. How far should they have bent at the expense of their own country's goals and needs?


Merkel certainly is a very experienced, astute leader with many good advisers at hand. I have been to Germany, both before and after Berlin Wall many times. Many German friends, even one Nazi!

Truly cannot believe Merkel's advisers know nothing at all about muslim culture or about very simple truth: In Middle East young men have the best chance to travel in difficult circumstances and make it across safely. As young, healthy men everywhere really.

It was not the best way of helping considering what happened to women and children.

It is truly great loss that Britain will be in EU no more, for all 27 and for Britain.

The most regrettable decision since War on America.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Sigh,,,,,,, Still a politician who people continue to believe.


I have some faith in Donald Tusk . Quite humble, patient and pragmatic man.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Sigh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Farage has no power


Perhaps power isn't the right word, more influence.
With much backing from the press that's power in itself is it not?



Goblin said:


> Sigh,,,,,,, Still a politician who people continue to believe.


True sadly. I remember some posters a few years back, "You wouldn't listen to Nick Griffin, so why listen to Farage?"

They did.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm not aware Farage is still a politician nor has any role in negotiating our exit from the EU. Do I trust the others under the leadership of Mrs May? more so than I trust Merkel et al to do what is right for us.


The thing I would be concerned about there is how a politician who supported one side of the referendum can suddenly become an extreme Brexiteer on becoming PM!

Appears to be more about power and control rather than doing what's best. From what we've seen so far I consider it good evidence.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> The thing I would be concerned about there is how a politician who supported one side of the referendum can suddenly become an extreme Brexiteer on becoming PM!


I have to agree with you on that one, @KittenKong: especially since DC stepped down after the Referendum as he ''did not feel he was the right person to lead the UK out of EU'' (not sure if that was an exact quote but he said something along those lines I recall).


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> I take it that is you admitting defeat


I can't wait for Brexit now Bisbow. We can finally do all things we couldn't do because the EU was holding us back.......

(Seriously though, this isn't a game. Right wing populism never ends well. You'll soon find out the only 'winners' are the bunch of crooks who have pushed for a hard brexit - plus the far right with their insidious agenda - & Putin. And even they will suffer eventually. A dead planet serves no one. This government will now tear up regulations that protected us, this is the ideology of hard right Conservatives - the complete unshackling of big business. Faceless corporations will have free reign to destroy the climate. Poison & pollute the air we breath, the water we drink & the land - along with the pollinators we need to survive. Yes I am wailing as you put it. Not for myself but for my children & for the natural world. The tories will continue with their shrinking of the state whilst cutting taxes for the rich & big business. This means less money for our already crippled NHS, social care, public services. Just have a think about who is really responsible for the NHS crisis, social care crisis, schools crisis, prisons crisis & so on. The EU ?? Or the government who are now going to change laws & give themselves even more power?

'Taking our country back'? What a joke. The extremists in government, Murdoch, Dacre, Rothermere & the Barcleys are laughing their heads off at us -They are the winners. )


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps power isn't the right word, more influence.
> With much backing from the press that's power in itself is it not?
> 
> True sadly. I remember some posters a few years back, "You wouldn't listen to Nick Griffin, so why listen to Farage?"
> 
> They did.
> 
> The thing I would be concerned about there is how a politician who supported one side of the referendum can suddenly become an extreme Brexiteer on becoming PM!
> 
> Appears to be more about power and control rather than doing what's best. From what we've seen so far I consider it good evidence.


Yep, May warned about the perils of brexit - but power mattered more to her than the future of our country.










This is a great article on it - http://www.allthatsleft.co.uk/2017/03/theresa-may-is-wrong-prime-minister-at-the-wrong-time/

Mays own words -

_"I think the economic arguments are clear, I think being part of a 500-million population trading bloc is significant for us. I think, that one of the issues is that a lot of people will invest here in the UK because it is the UK in Europe._

_"If we were not in Europe, I think there would be firms and companies who would be looking to say, do they need to develop a mainland Europe presence rather than a UK presence? So I think there are definite benefits for us in economic terms."_


----------



## noushka05

Brexit cost set to dwarf NHS budget - http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/brexit-cost-set-to-dwarf-nhs-budget/21/12/


----------



## cheekyscrip

May already promised big overhaul of workers' rights...

As well as later retirement age and changes to pensions.

Hammond already curtailed many freedoms you had as to how you want to invest your savings/ pension. Even though it is your own money, taxed already.


Britain will be poorer, desperate for any deal, any investment, very much at mercy of USA and generally big players, cutting corp taxes , desperate for business.


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> I can't wait for Brexit now Bisbow. We can finally do all things we couldn't do because the EU was holding us back.......
> 
> (Seriously though, this isn't a game. Right wing populism never ends well. You'll soon find out the only 'winners' are the bunch of crooks who have pushed for a hard brexit - plus the far right with their insidious agend
> 
> . )


Trouble is whoever is in charge is surrounded by double dealing crooks,
Taking just one example
Kenya
People are starving and children suffering whilst the fat cats sit in their golden towers and I can buy beans peas and other fruit and veg from Kenya if I so want
Why is this food not being shared with the starving
Because there is no profit in giving it away

Whatever happens in Brexit the crooks will still try to get their very unfair share of the goodies


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> I have some faith in Donald Tusk . Quite humble, patient and pragmatic man.


Vytenis Andriukaitis seems to be another good one. Only know about him due to facepalming while Farage rants about how none of them have ever done a day's work. Then again how "involved" were any of us in the EU and actually tried to keep track of what they were doing? I know that other than voting for one, I simply "forgot about MEP's.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Trouble is whoever is in charge is surrounded by double dealing crooks,
> Taking just one example
> Kenya
> People are starving and children suffering whilst the fat cats sit in their golden towers and I can buy beans peas and other fruit and veg from Kenya if I so want
> Why is this food not being shared with the starving
> Because there is no profit in giving it away
> 
> Whatever happens in Brexit the crooks will still try to get their very unfair share of the goodies


Unfortunately both here & in the USA - we've given power to an even more corrupt bunch of crooks.


----------



## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> Brexit cost set to dwarf NHS budget - http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/brexit-cost-set-to-dwarf-nhs-budget/21/12/


People could also look through https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm

Now tell me, what happens when the government cannot make side deals with companies like Nissan as it would be classified as subsidising them? Simple things like preferential tax rates, even using government interest rates as opposed to normal are counted as subsidies.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> People could also look through https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm
> 
> Now tell me, what happens when the government cannot make side deals with companies like Nissan as it would be classified as subsidising them? Simple things like preferential tax rates, even using government interest rates as opposed to normal are counted as subsidies.


Seems a lot fairer system to me than the one where one country can obliterate a whole industry in another.

I hope May can sort that one out with the EU


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> "You wouldn't listen to Nick Griffin, so why listen to Farage?"


As an aside, Nick Griffin is emigrating to Hungary. Says he will move within the next six months while he can still take advantage of EU freedom of movement. :Shifty


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Seems a lot fairer system to me than the one where one country can obliterate a whole industry in another.


So you are happy to lose a lot of UK industry then as we cannot compete equally due to I don't know, a simple thing like wages? Let's lose the car industry for a start, quite a lot of argriculture...


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> So you are happy to lose a lot of UK industry then as we cannot compete equally due to I don't know, a simple thing like wages? Let's lose the car industry for a start, quite a lot of argriculture...


Our agriculture has been screwed ever since we joined in the 70s......Where have you been to have missed that?

Lower welfare standards. Just look at fois gras, not allowed here under welfare standards but still produced in France, Hungary, Bulgaria, Spain and Belgium.

Also ever bigger and bigger factory farms........ Just look at the pig industry......they have and continue to devastate our own pig industry http://www.npa-uk.org.uk/UK_slaughterings_continue_to_be_well_down_year-on-year.html

It's not just been agriculture though, they have been screwing us from the beginning. Stopping us trading freely while swamping our markets


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Our agriculture has been screwed ever since we joined in the 70s......Where have you been to have missed that?


No expert on agriculture. Funny thing is I could probably look at individual occasions where government has been responsible for harming the argriculture sector without anything to do with the EU.

As I'm no expert, explain how leaving helps? We going to lower welfare standards more? How does the ability to trade elsewhere (we can anyway as an EU member) actually help when we will still be "flooded" with cheaper imports? That "flood" now being protected by the WTO rules but all goods going out have tarriffs?



> It's not just been agriculture though, they have been screwing us from the beginning. Stopping us trading freely while swamping our markets


We've always been able to trade or did you miss that? Maybe you should actually check up what the single market is and the advantages. Or are you talking about trade deals. People who negotiate and actually are responsible for trade deals state Britain won't get trade deals that advance free trade. Bit like the Australian/US trade deal which actually has restricted, not enhanced trade. The UK will not get trade deals that provide its companies with better conditions to trade. Brexiteers imagine a free-trade utopia whilst the hard fact is Britain is too small a market to wring meaningful trade opportunities from the hands of the large and populous economies. End of the day, it's a numbers game which the UK loses.

So let's assume trade deals are different, they'll save small industries. How many will we have at the end of negotiations. Answer 0. They take around 5 years to create. So 5 years where industry is penalised and suffer. Which companies are still going to be around? The small or larger ones and this includes farmers? Who can withstand a couple of years of hardship better? Small firms will suffer and close. Once gone, if the situation improves do you expect these to be able to restart?


----------



## Jesthar

Goblin said:


> So let's assume trade deals are different, they'll save small industries. How many will we have at the end of negotiations. Answer 0. They take around 5 years to create. *So 5 years where industry is penalised and suffer*. Which companies are still going to be around? The small or larger ones and this includes farmers? Who can withstand a couple of years of hardship better? Small firms will suffer and close. Once gone, if the situation improves do you expect these to be able to restart?


Make that 7 years, as we can't even start any external negotiations until after the 2 years of Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

Report from Reuters

*Goldman to move hundreds of staff from London pre-Brexit: Europe CEO*

Goldman Sachs will begin moving hundreds of people out of London before any Brexit deal is struck as part of its contingency plans for Britain leaving the European Union, the Wall Street firm's Europe CEO said.

"We are going to start to execute on those contingency plans," Richard Gnodde, chief executive officer of Goldman Sachs International, the European arm of the Wall Street bank, told CNBC on Tuesday.

"For this first period, this is really the period as we put in place contingency plans, this is in the hundreds of people as opposed to anything greater than that," he said


----------



## Goblin

Jesthar said:


> Make that 7 years, as we can't even start any external negotiations until after the 2 years of Brexit.


We haven't started to go away from simply tariffs at this point as that is what people focus on. We haven't touched things like the preferential regulatory framework and the level of red tape that will involve. The simple fact that the UK does not have the capability to test products coming into the country for conformity will mean it falls afoul of non-tariff barriers. Will it matter if containers being imported are slowed and delayed? will it matter if a each container costs around £2000 extra to bring it (without any delay for bottlenecks which would be more expensive). What will happen to manufacturer's when there's a bottleneck for parts entering the country? As a member of the EU it's simplified as they have the trade agreements even with countries such as Australia. Yep, Australia, it's simply not a tariff based one. Same with China and the US. All these non-tariff trade agreements will be lost as well.

82 agreements between the EU and Australia, of which 18 are bilateral. 
65 agreements between the EU and China, of which 13 are bilateral. 
135 agreements between the EU and the United States, of which 55 are bilateral.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Our agriculture has been screwed ever since we joined in the 70s......


Rona, I know the EU isn't perfect, far from it. What you've failed to do is explain how leaving helps anything.


----------



## KittenKong

From the Mail of all papers:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Heineken-threatening-Brexit-price-rises.html










Of course they would say it's the Dutch firms fault!


----------



## samuelsmiles

KittenKong said:


> From the Mail of all papers:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Heineken-threatening-Brexit-price-rises.html
> 
> View attachment 303930
> 
> 
> Of course they would say it's the Dutch firms fault!


Well that is indeed good news. I shall continue to 'do my bit' for the UK by supporting my local micro brewery that produces some beautiful real ales.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Well that is indeed good news. I shall continue to 'do my bit' for the UK by supporting my local micro brewery that produces some beautiful real ales.


Thing is, how many supply bottles or cans to supermarkets? Or do you think people should only drink in pubs?

I happen to like real ale myself.

What's wrong with Kingfisher and Amstel? I enjoy these too.

The EU have played no part in restricting the sale of real ale. Brexit doesn't necessarily mean it'll become more widespread.

I think if Carlsberg and Stella stop being sold post Brexit I think they'll be mass protests!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> From the Mail of all papers:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Heineken-threatening-Brexit-price-rises.html
> 
> View attachment 303930
> 
> 
> Of course they would say it's the Dutch firms fault!


If you hadn't noticed, Tesco is reducing a whole range of products


----------



## cheekyscrip

Here in Morrisons we lost variety of Polish sausages. Very much loved by my children. Other stuff vanishes too. 
But this is not the worst of Brexit.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> 82 agreements between the EU and Australia, of which 18 are bilateral.
> 65 agreements between the EU and China, of which 13 are bilateral.
> 135 agreements between the EU and the United States, of which 55 are bilateral.


So....What's the benefit to the UK of these?


----------



## Arnie83

"Don't forget: Clocks go forwards 1 hour on Sunday 26th March, then they go backwards 60 years on Wednesday 29th."


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> "Don't forget: Clocks go forwards 1 hour on Sunday 26th March, then they go backwards 60 years on Wednesday 29th."


Ready to start the bright future we should have had


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> So....What's the benefit to the UK of these?


Well maybe you should read the rest of my post about setting up the ability to trade without paying 2K per container and the need for inspection of each one. The fact the UK does not have the facilities to actually perform the tests in the first place in sufficient quantities which would slow imports and exports down causing supply problems. They allow UK manufacturing to get the raw materials and parts required to keep it running and the UK to trade with those countries avoiding red tape and additional costs making them more competitive in the foreign markets. The border between Ireland and NI would require these checks in place by the way, not simply excise checks and a soft border. You may say that's not an advantage... Advantages to leaving.. to cut red tape I've heard from others.. erm.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Arnie83 said:


> "Don't forget: Clocks go forwards 1 hour on Sunday 26th March, *then they go backwards 60 years on Wednesday 29th.*"


Oh, I do so hope this is true. A simpler time.

Sunday closing, beef dripping and mumps. Alas.... 

*Why 1957 was Britain's happiest year of the last century*


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Ready to start the bright future we should have had


Be that as it may - and it is of course quite unknowable - I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. The rest of the world has moved on.


----------



## Goblin

So tell me Samuelsmiles.. what has sunday closing got to do with the EU or beef dripping (in the news a couple of years ago making a comeback) ?

Was a simpler time only as expectations were lower. Now it seems for many "my life is not fulfilled unless I have the latest iphone/mobile". But that of course is a totally different issue.

http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/nostalgia/living-conditions-st-hildas-1957-6885902

What is May doing to prepare people I wonder?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Ready to start the bright future we should have had


Really? I don't think the coalmines will re open and British Leyland will suddenly reappear producing Morris Minors and Wonderloaf will be back in the shops.

Perhaps we'll also return to 405-line black and white television with only two channels as well?
 








17" Ferguson transportable from 1960.

We can all wallow in nostalgia but those days are dead and gone.

Successive governments are responsible for the demise of British industry, not the EU.

Not once did I hear Mrs Thatcher blame the EEC for the demise of traditional industries in the '80s.

What makes you have so much faith in May, Davies and Johnson to bring what you call a bright future?

Our future was bright before the stupid referendum. We'll probably never get to retire abroad now thanks to the lies of Farage and the far right press. As regular visitors to the EU we might not be able to afford to travel in future, let alone retire to the country of our choice.


----------



## samuelsmiles

KittenKong said:


> Really? I don't think the coalmines will re open and British Leyland will suddenly reappear producing Morris Minors and Wonderloaf will be back in the shops.
> 
> Perhaps we'll also return to 405-line black and white television with only two channels as well?
> View attachment 303942
> 
> 
> 17" Ferguson transportable from 1960.
> 
> We can all wallow in nostalgia but* those days are dead and gone*.
> 
> Successive governments are responsible for the demise of British industry, not the EU.
> 
> Not once did I hear Mrs Thatcher blame the EEC for the demise of traditional industries in the '80s.


Yes, it's a real shame. Back then we would have called the engineer out to fix one of those tv's when they went on the blink. Now we just bury them.


----------



## KittenKong

From the BBC comment section.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Oh, I do so hope this is true. A simpler time.
> 
> Sunday closing, beef dripping and mumps. Alas....
> 
> *Why 1957 was Britain's happiest year of the last century*


God, I sincerely hope not. The Sunday trade compromise introduced under John Major's government was one of the best things that government did.

I would hate to return to the days where everywhere was shut, pubs an' all....


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> God, I sincerely hope not. The Sunday trade compromise introduced under John Major's government was one of the best things that government did.
> 
> I would hate to return to the days where everywhere was shut, pubs an' all....


Plus side..properties in Spain are cheaper by the day.. Especially around Gibraltar... Lots of people desperate to sell.

.Because this illusion of brighter future is built on real , real misery of those who are losing their livehoods thanks to Brexit.
Their chance for the future like @shadowmare .

But you don't care until you and your will be directly affected.

Funny, for most of Brexit lovers that will come true and they will be worse off than before.

Some have enough to take the loss, some are less privileged.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Yes, it's a real shame. Back then we would have called the engineer out to fix one of those tv's when they went on the blink. Now we just bury them.


The average price of a B&W set fifty years ago was £80, over £300 for colour (in those days only BBC 2 was available on 625 UHF colour)! Price of a van apparently!

TVs are now ultra complex and extremely difficult to repair, but sold for a comparative fraction of the price. Not worth repairing so they're dumped and replaced.


----------



## Colliebarmy

samuelsmiles said:


> Yes, it's a real shame. Back then we would have called the engineer out to fix one of those tv's when they went on the blink. Now we just bury them.


Cos I can buy a new one for less than the cost of a callout and repair...


----------



## Goblin

They are built to be disposable. Diminishing market if things can be repaired.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> You see this is what I don't get.. It's almost a refusal to acknowledge simple facts.
> 
> The leave campaign's foundation (other than general lies) was xenophobia and a call for nationalism (note not patriotism)
> 
> The resugence of abuse towards foreigners is a direct response to the referendum campaign
> Making excuses for it even now will contrinue to encourage those who are racist. Doesn't matter how often you say you don't agree if you also on the other hand make excuses for it.
> Then again, without the immigration and a call for nationalism what is there to the leave campaign?


Why are you basing you arguement on immigration, why are you labeling those of us who voted out as xenaphobic, you really dont have a clue do you? Is that really all you have to throw at this?? Honestly, with the attitude of the remain camp its not suprising you lost!


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> So Farage, Gove, Johnson and Ian Duncan Smith you do as they are the main politicians concerned.


Its not about the politicians, they are mere pawns and only in employment as they were put there by their voters, that can easily be rectified


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Why are you basing you arguement on immigration, why are you labeling those of us who voted out as xenaphobic, you really dont have a clue do you? Is that really all you have to throw at this?? Honestly, with the attitude of the remain camp its not suprising you lost!


Why I'm labelling those who voted as xenophobic. I'm not, you are. I'm saying the campaign was based on xenophobia and nationalism. It's immigrants fault that the NHS is failing, schools are failing etc etc. Now as to if people chose that as a reason that's for them to know. Why is it that May is basing her leave negotiations primarily on making sure we are out of freedom of movement to the extent of leaving the single market as we couldn't have one without the other? Your protestations do not match what even the government acknowledges as the reasoning for a large proportion of the leave vote.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Why is it the May is basing her leave negotiations on making sure we are out of freedom of movement to the extend of leaving the single market


Because that was the basis of the leave campaign and that is what the majority of people voted for. Duh.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Really? I don't think the coalmines will re open and British Leyland will suddenly reappear producing Morris Minors and Wonderloaf will be back in the shops.
> 
> Perhaps we'll also return to 405-line black and white television with only two channels as well?
> View attachment 303942
> 
> 
> 17" Ferguson transportable from 1960.
> 
> We can all wallow in nostalgia but those days are dead and gone.
> 
> Successive governments are responsible for the demise of British industry, not the EU.
> 
> Not once did I hear Mrs Thatcher blame the EEC for the demise of traditional industries in the '80s.
> 
> What makes you have so much faith in May, Davies and Johnson to bring what you call a bright future?
> 
> Our future was bright before the stupid referendum. We'll probably never get to retire abroad now thanks to the lies of Farage and the far right press. As regular visitors to the EU we might not be able to afford to travel in future, let alone retire to the country of our choice.


Hold on, weren't we in the EU in the 80's? How did the EU help then, oh not at all.

We'll do just fine out of the EU, which funnily enough is something we never had a referendum on to join in the first place.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Not long now till article 50 is triggered (29/03/2017) and guess what? I am still out.

There seems to have been alot discussed here on this thread and the negotiations haven't even started yet with the EU. Wow I wonder how many pages this thread will have on the 29th March 2019 (All going well this will be the day the UK leaves the EU).


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Hold on, weren't we in the EU in the 80's? How did the EU help then, oh not at all.
> 
> We'll do just fine out of the EU, which funnily enough is something we never had a referendum on to join in the first place.


And that's exactly it, we never wanted to be in it to start with!


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> People could also look through https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm
> 
> Now tell me, what happens when the government cannot make side deals with companies like Nissan as it would be classified as subsidising them? Simple things like preferential tax rates, even using government interest rates as opposed to normal are counted as subsidies.


The financial costs of brexit are going to be astronomical aren't they - & lets not forget the cultural & social costs.



rona said:


> Our agriculture has been screwed ever since we joined in the 70s......Where have you been to have missed that?
> 
> Lower welfare standards. Just look at fois gras, not allowed here under welfare standards but still produced in France, Hungary, Bulgaria, Spain and Belgium.
> 
> Also ever bigger and bigger factory farms........ Just look at the pig industry......they have and continue to devastate our own pig industry http://www.npa-uk.org.uk/UK_slaughterings_continue_to_be_well_down_year-on-year.html
> 
> It's not just been agriculture though, they have been screwing us from the beginning. Stopping us trading freely while swamping our markets


Can you please explain how are farmers are going to be better off outside the EU paying tariffs whilst competing with cheap imports? How will farmers who rely on EU migrant labour be better off?


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> Remember this one? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33555619
> 
> Put simply Merkel wanted to do the right thing as far as refugees were concerned. She didn't expect the horde and was afraid to admit she was wrong when it went pear shape. Politicians are not renown for admitting mistakes. The german mentality is also different. You had the east/west divide when freedom in the east was a dream. You have the idea that every German of her generation was brought up that WWII was their personal fault.The idea of "federalism" works in Germany.
> 
> Then you have the position of the UK within the EU. Whilst they had influence and Germany wanted their participation, the UK always held itself apart. Control of things like immigration, whilst the UK government didn't do anything, the ability was there. So what was the EU supposed to do, change rules according to failures specified in the UK media or actually see if the rules actually needed changing for the majority of countries? Let's face it, the UK population have been lied to about the EU for years and used as a scapegoat for the UK's ills. Let's look at the UK:
> 
> Veto on other country membership (Turkey for example)
> Veto for any possibility of an EU army
> 
> Not responsible for funding any more bailout of countries such as Greece
> Not in the Euro
> Not in the Schengen Area
> Larger fishing quota than a "fair" allocation.
> That's one of the problems of Brexit. If we leave, rejoining with the same advantages will be impossible.
> 
> I know you say France and Germany will now run the EU. Not strictly true. Germany is on the losing side of votes within the EU more than any other country other than the UK. These democratic votes being the way policy is decided.
> 
> Germany wanted the UK in the EU and they still do. They believe in democracy and the fact other countries should make their own policies however. How far should they have bent at the expense of their own country's goals and needs?


This just about sums things up.


----------



## noushka05

Also relevant to @samuelsmiles climate change thread. I may add it later. http://www.brexitshambles.com/big-data-brave-new-world-or-snake-oil-redux/


----------



## noushka05

Russia involvement in the propaganda wars both here & in the USA should surely ring alarm bells of even the most ardent brexiteer?

(Mark Urban BBC Newsnight diplomatic editor) - Asked if 'the Russians would like to see more Brexits', Dir @*FBI* Comey answers simply "yes"

Putins hybrid war against Western democracy, including against the UK before the referendum. http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/brexit-voters-brainwashed-russia/15/03/


----------



## Calvine

Colliebarmy said:


> Cos I can buy a new one for less than the cost of a callout and repair...


 Obsolescent society.


----------



## noushka05

A reminder to brexiteers that leaders in the other EU member states also have electorates with strong views.

ICYMI: 47% of Germans agst "big concessions" for UK in #*Brexit* talks,
36% against any concessions. Only 11% pro.

http://www.forschungsgruppe.de/Umfragen/Politbarometer/Archiv/Politbarometer_2017/Januar_II_2017/…


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> Obsolescent society.


We have to keep that money go round going round dontcha know


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Hold on, weren't we in the EU in the 80's? How did the EU help then, oh not at all.
> 
> We'll do just fine out of the EU, which funnily enough is something we never had a referendum on to join in the first place.


Exactly. The far right had everyone believing the EEC/EU control every aspect of their lives. Thatcher was free to do what she wanted.

Perhaps the EEC should have intervened but that would have called for criticism. You cannot win.


----------



## cheekyscrip

So what about non financial services what do not fall on WTO rules?















EU will be ok without X Factor, BBC, and planes will fly away...to find other owners.
How big is that loss for our economy and our employment?


----------



## KittenKong

Surprise surprise.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/22/uk-millionaires-brexit-eu-ubs-wealth-management


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Surprise surprise.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/22/uk-millionaires-brexit-eu-ubs-wealth-management
> 
> View attachment 303966
> View attachment 303967


Well let's be honest you don't know and I don't know and the press don't know in reality as Brexit is two years off from happening from the 29th March 2017.

It could well make millionaire's richer who knows? All the press is doing is fuling people's fears and making speculation and that is all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> So what about non financial services what do not fall on WTO rules?
> View attachment 303962
> View attachment 303963
> 
> EU will be ok without X Factor, BBC, and planes will fly away...to find other owners.
> How big is that loss for our economy and our employment?


Who knows what is going to happen as Brexit won't happen until two years after the 29th March 2017. The newspapers and news on TV are only fuling people's fears and making speculation and that is all. Only time will tell what will happen in reality.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Exactly. The far right had everyone believing the EEC/EU control every aspect of their lives. Thatcher was free to do what she wanted.
> 
> Perhaps the EEC should have intervened but that would have called for criticism. You cannot win.


The coal mines closed because of imports. A lot from Poland

British Leyland would have died anyway with the mismanagement that was allowed to go on for years and tax payers money poured into it by Labour governments .


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Who knows what is going to happen as Brexit won't happen until two years after the 29th March 2017. The newspapers and news on TV are only fuling people's fears and making speculation and that is all. Only time will tell what will happen in reality.


If you opened your eyes you'd see things are already going down the toilet & we haven't even left yet.

We are a laughing stock.

*Naomi O'Leary*‏Verified [email protected]*NaomiOhReally* 15h15 hours ago

*Just spoke to a Dutch MP who could barely contain laughter at "unrealistic", "Alice in Wonderland" expectations of UK towards Brexit talks.*

Even the pro-brexit Telegraph are running this story - *EU officials mock Britain with anti-Brexit Tintin poster on wall of Brussels war room










*


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Surprise surprise.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/22/uk-millionaires-brexit-eu-ubs-wealth-management
> 
> View attachment 303966
> View attachment 303967


And that's bad why exactly?

As long as they stay here and pay taxes and spend money............


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> The coal mines closed because of imports. A lot from Poland
> 
> British Leyland would have died anyway with the mismanagement that was allowed to go on for years and tax payers money poured into it by Labour governments .


Thatcher closed the coal mines in her attempts to crush the unions.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If you opened your eyes you'd see things are already going down the toilet & we haven't even left yet.
> 
> We are a laughing stock.
> 
> *Naomi O'Leary*‏Verified [email protected]*NaomiOhReally* 15h15 hours ago
> 
> *Just spoke to a Dutch MP who could barely contain laughter at "unrealistic", "Alice in Wonderland" expectations of UK towards Brexit talks.*
> 
> Even the pro-brexit Telegraph are running this story - *EU officials mock Britain with anti-Brexit Tintin poster on wall of Brussels war room
> 
> View attachment 303970
> 
> 
> *


Again people's opinion.
Sorry for being hard faced about this but I have my eyes wide open. Nobody knows what is actually going to happen as Brexit hasn't happened yet. Simple.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> And that's bad why exactly?
> 
> As long as they stay here and pay taxes and spend money............


Gross inequality is never a good thing Rona.

The government want to turn the UK into a tax haven this means LESS money for health care, public services the welfare safety net!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Again people's opinion.
> Sorry for being hard faced about this but I have my eyes wide open. Nobody knows what is actually going to happen as Brexi
> 
> t hasn't happened yet. Simple.


Opinion based on evidence. Can your eyes see this?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> The coal mines closed because of imports. A lot from Poland
> 
> British Leyland would have died anyway with the mismanagement that was allowed to go on for years and tax payers money poured into it by Labour governments .


.....And who imported the coal in the first place? Thatcher's government made such contingency plans knowing the battle they would have with the pit closure programme.

As for British Leyland you are right. The government should have intervened by dealing with the mismanagement.

It could be argued at least the Labour government tried to keep the genuine UK car industry afloat however. But pouring money without dealing with the mismanagement was certainly ill advised.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Opinion based on evidence. Can your eyes see this?
> 
> View attachment 303971


And again no one knows, no agreement has been made with the EU yet has it as the UK hasn't even started negotiations yet. I love how these people think they can see into the future (and no one else can) yet they have got things so wrong so far.

Also a point to remember we are in the EU still for two years until Brexit happens so have to abide to EU laws. Nothing will change for 24 months and possibly longer.

Still out and would vote out again if given the chance to.


----------



## noushka05

Nine months after the referendum & David Davis confirms the government has no clue to the potential economic impact of brexit. And people are fine with this?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> .....And who imported the coal in the first place? Thatcher's government made such contingency plans knowing the battle they would have with the pit closure programme.


Mmmm, you don't think her hands were tied by the EU?

No of course you don't......it was all Maggies fault


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Mmmm, you don't think her hands were tied by the EU?
> 
> No of course you don't......it was all Maggies fault


You're blaming the EU for closing the pits now:Hilarious http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25549596 It was all Maggies fault.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Mmmm, you don't think her hands were tied by the EU?


Ahem, Poland wasn't in the EEC at the time of the miners strike. Still within the Iron Curtain actually.

How did the lives of many, myself included, improve under Tony Blair's Labour government?

I fail to understand your comment blaming the EEC for the Thatcher era! That government benefited the few at the expense of the majority.
The few in question did extremely well under her premiership.

If Thatcher's hands were tied as you suggest why did she not consider an EU referendum during her 11 years in power?


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-relaxed-about-leaving-eu-without-trade-deal
























Of course we all believe the "expert" BJ.
Perhaps some here will argue the remain supporting Tories are just, "Sore losers".

Civil war within the Tory party. Bring it on!


----------



## noushka05

'Taking back control'


----------



## samuelsmiles

Toyota will be investing £240m at their Burnaston factory and the government has pledged £21.3m support for training, r&d and environmental upgrades at the facility.

What is more interesting, I think, is that Detroit Electric has chosen the UK (Leamington Spa) to manufacture its new electric car.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Toyota will be investing £240m at their Burnaston factory and the government has pledged £21.3m support for training, r&d and environmental upgrades at the facility.
> 
> What is more interesting, I think, is that Detroit Electric has chosen the UK (Leamington Spa) to manufacture its new electric car.


More dependence on Japan and China? Not something I would rejoice over personally.

Then, if the government invested £21m towards revamping a genuine UK car maker rather than encourage far away foreign concerns to allow the assembly of their imports that would have been good news.

Less of a chance of them taking trade elsewhere if the UK walk away without a trade deal too.


----------



## samuelsmiles

_*YES - THANK YOU FOR CLARIFYING*_


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Ahem, Poland wasn't in the EEC at the time of the miners strike. Still within the Iron Curtain actually.


I didn't say it was and I also never even mentioned the miners strikes,
The coal industry was dying anyway, even they said that, what with the rise of other fuels since WW11, the imports just put the nail in the coffin and finished it off.



KittenKong said:


> How did the lives of many, myself included, improve under Tony Blair's Labour government?


It didn't and we were well and truly ensconced in the EU by then



KittenKong said:


> I fail to understand your comment blaming the EEC for the Thatcher era! That government benefited the few at the expense of the majority.
> The few in question did extremely well under her premiership.


I benefited greatly through the Thatcher era and I was only a farm labourer at the time. Can't say the same through the Blair years



KittenKong said:


> If Thatcher's hands were tied as you suggest why did she not consider an EU referendum during her 11 years in power?


I don't know, you'd have to ask her . Maybe, with her ego, she thought she could sort it out


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> 65 agreements between the EU and China, of which 13 are bilateral.
> 135 agreements between the EU and the United States, of which 55 are bilateral.





KittenKong said:


> More dependence on Japan and China? Not something I would rejoice over personally.


Seems it's ok for the EU to do business with China (and Trump) but not us in your book


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Seems it's ok for the EU to do business with China (and Trump) but not us in your book


I think the intended point was that as we will be negotiating on behalf of a comparatively small market share and will be under pressure to get deals in place quickly, Japan and China can pretty much demand whatever terms they fancy. _They _won't be hurt if we don't agree to them, after all


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Seems it's ok for the EU to do business with China (and Trump) but not us in your book


While I didn't exactly suggest that it would have looked better if the government led the way in developing its own industry rather than relying on those outside the EU.

Allowing the Chinese to build a nuclear plant in Somerset is another example.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> While I didn't exactly suggest that it would have looked better if the government led the way in developing its own industry rather than relying on those outside the EU.


We have to have something in place in the interim. We are still being strangled by the EU. We will need some deals until we are free enough to work out our future.
It would be very remiss of May and her government to not get something in place to tided us over while we unravel decades of the destruction of our industries


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> I think the intended point was that as we will be negotiating on behalf of a comparatively small market share and will be under pressure to get deals in place quickly, Japan and China can pretty much demand whatever terms they fancy. _They _won't be hurt if we don't agree to them, after all


I know


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> We have to have something in place in the interim. We are still being strangled by the EU. We will need some deals until we are free enough to work out our future.
> It would be very remiss of May and her government to not get something in place to tided us over while we unravel decades of the destruction of our industries


So once again you are blaming the EEC/EU for everything and believe in time the UK will prosper again?

It's not April 1st yet is it?


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> While I didn't exactly suggest that it would have looked better if the government led the way in developing its own industry rather than relying on those outside the EU.


Given that we don't even produce anywhere near enough food to feed ourselves without imports, then we're going to have to rely on the outside world full stop  On their terms, naturally


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> Toyota will be investing £240m at their Burnaston factory and the government has pledged £21.3m support for training, r&d and environmental upgrades at the facility.


Oh look, government spending for a bribe which is against WTO rules, the fallback position when we cannot make a deal or negotiations take too long. Hint, 2 years is an impossible target and May has ruled out a "transitional arrangement". Then what? Oh look..

"...Continued tariff-and-barrier free market access between the UK and Europe that is predictable and uncomplicated will be vital for future success....".

As for the other one, parts come from China. Will be interesting what will happen when tariffs or additional red tape are required. Massive 200 jobs as opposed to those already stated to be lost in the city along with the associated tax income.

Government keeps promising things it cannot guarantee and is highly unlikely to deliver.


----------



## Colliebarmy

KittenKong said:


> So once again you are blaming the EEC/EU for everything and believe in time the UK will prosper again?


In time?

Trump and oil prices affect the UK share prices more than Brexit, and we have no control over them


----------



## Colliebarmy

"Government keeps promising things it cannot guarantee and is highly unlikely to deliver."

Aw shucks, like thats never hapenned before has it


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> We have to have something in place in the interim. We are still being strangled by the EU. *We will need some deals until we are free enough to work out our future.*
> It would be very remiss of May and her government to not get something in place to tided us over while we unravel decades of the destruction of our industries


You are aware that we can't even open any kind of negotiations with anyone until after the two years leaving period, I take it?

Incidentally, how are we being strangled by the EU? I see this said a lot, but no-one has ever bothered to explain what they mean by it...


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> Given that we don't even produce anywhere near enough food to feed ourselves without imports, then we're going to have to rely on the outside world full stop  On their terms, naturally


We could actually import a great deal of food a lot cheaper without the EU tariffs we now have. There's not a food product (I can think of) in the EU that isn't produced elsewhere cheaper. Food prices could and probably will fall.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Bully boy tactics

*EU officials have reminded UK-based airlines that to operate on routes within the EU - for example between Berlin and Paris - they need be based in the bloc, and the majority of their capital shares must be EU-owned, according to an article in the Guardian .

Airlines would have to restructure, with a loss of jobs, or lose the routes, the article said. Should the UK reciprocate, EU-based airlines would be put in a similar position, it added.*

So I assume to fly thousands of holiday makers to Spain/Italy firms like Lufthansa, Air France, Iberian airways and Al Italia would need to relocate or have bases here...


----------



## Goblin

Jesthar said:


> I see this said a lot, but no-one has ever bothered to explain what they mean by it...


That's easy and you have heard it.. we can't make trade deals with everyone we want. The fact we'll get trade deals which suit the other countries more than us is beside the point. Often trade deals actually restrict, not open up trade opportunities, especially when negotiating from a weak position as the UK would be. Australia/China trade deal good example. Simply put having the "empire" in the past does nothing for the modern trade relations negotiations. It's a market numbers came and EU is oh, ever so slightly ahead of the UK when it comes to that.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> We could actually import a great deal of food a lot cheaper without the EU tariffs we now have. There's not a food product (I can think of) in the EU that isn't produced elsewhere cheaper. Food could and probably will be cheaper.


Er, you realise there are no tarriffs from food from the EU but unless we have a trade deal, there will be from elsewhere? We will not have any trade deals when we leave. tariffs aren't the only cost, red tape will increase significantly which also costs.


----------



## Goblin

Colliebarmy said:


> Trump and oil prices affect the UK share prices more than Brexit, and we have no control over them


For once I agree with you. FTSE is not an indication of the strength of the UK as it's based on multinationals and the global economy. Wait, weren't we the 5th largest economy before the referendum?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Er, you realise there are no tarriffs from food from the EU but unless we have a trade deal, there will be from elsewhere? We will not have any trade deals when we leave. tariffs aren't the only cost, red tape will increase significantly which also costs.


Er, you do realise we buy so much food from the EU because there are no tariffs, and not from cheaper producing countries because of the tariffs imposed on them. When we leave we can simply impose no tariffs at all for food products.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Yes, people think that we will just walk into free trade with who ever we want, they are wrong we'll get nothing for free once we leave.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Er, you do realise we buy so much food from the EU because there are no tariffs, and not from cheaper producing countries because of the tariffs imposed on them. When we leave we can simply impose no tariffs at all for food products.


No you cannot simply impose no tariffs. You have to abide by international trading rules. The irony is those rules are really made up by unelected bureaucrats rather than a democratic process.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Happy Paws said:


> Yes, people think that we will just walk into free trade with who ever we want, they are wrong we'll get nothing for free once we leave.


You don't have to have an agreement, for food items you simply don't impose a tariff.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> You don't have to have an agreement, for food items you simply don't impose a tariff.


World doesn't work that way. We are bound even when out of the EU by other regulations, most likely from the WTO.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Er, you realise there are no tarriffs from food from the EU but unless we have a trade deal, there will be from elsewhere? We will not have any trade deals when we leave. tariffs aren't the only cost, red tape will increase significantly which also costs.


But there is the subsidy culture which gives unfair advantage to some......................


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> You don't have to have an agreement, for food items you simply don't impose a tariff.


Doesn't work like that, which is why we have all these complicated ten-plus-years-in the-negotiating agreements in the first place...


----------



## rona

There's also so much protectionism within EU trade, if any country does the same though it's bad


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> Doesn't work like that, which is why we have all these complicated ten-plus-years-in the-negotiating agreements in the first place...


Surely the ten plus year is because the ruddy EU can't agree on anything?

A free trade deal between Australia and USA took just over a year


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Surprise surprise.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/22/uk-millionaires-brexit-eu-ubs-wealth-management
> 
> View attachment 303966
> View attachment 303967


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Who knows what is going to happen as Brexit won't happen until two years after the 29th March 2017. The newspapers and news on TV are only fuling people's fears and making speculation and that is all. Only time will tell what will happen in reality.


This is going to happen to many of us.
As from 5th April. Two weeks for new legislation? Thank you Hammond, May and those who got you in power.
We are to pay for Brexit.








Literally.
Companies will move out .


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> But there is the subsidy culture which gives unfair advantage to some......................


OK, from an EU site but:

"...The European Union, like most major economies, operates a system of Trade Defence Instruments. These instruments - Anti-Dumping (AD), Anti-Subsidy (AS) and Safeguard measures - allow the EU to defend its producers against international distortions of competition in the form of dumped or subsidised imports and, in the case of safeguards, against dramatic shifts in trade flows in so far as these are harmful to the EU economy.

The use of these instruments is based on World Trade Organization (WTO) rules and is a legitimate and necessary part of the multilateral trading system. By international comparison, the EU is a moderate user of TDI. The EU maintains high standards through a regular review of rules and, when necessary, by adapting TDI to evolutions in external and internal economic conditions and jurisprudence.

The aim of TDI is not to act against low priced imports as such, or to eliminate the genuine competitive advantages of some third countries, but to counter the artificial advantages which third countries may enjoy in international trade through state induced or privately organised distortions..."

So the EU has measures in place.. Does the UK? Where would the UK get the experienced people necessary to fulfill that role?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> .The European Union, like most major economies, operates a system of Trade Defence Instruments. These instruments - Anti-Dumping (AD), Anti-Subsidy (AS) and Safeguard measures - allow the EU to defend its producers against international distortions of competition in the form of dumped or subsidised imports and, in the case of safeguards, against dramatic shifts in trade flows in so far as these are harmful to the EU economy.


 But they can dump produce from one EU country on another and ruin their industry. It's like saying that we are only allowed to be the financial center and other countries will feed us


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> But they can dump produce from one EU country on another and ruin their industry. It's like saying that we are only allowed to be the financial center and other countries will feed us


Can we get deals with Australia without their lamb, with New Zealand without their milk and dairy products?
Not to mention free movement.

@rona you are the loveliest person, but I trust @Goblin on economy.

I see exactly what is happening in finances right now. Not very good, companies, banks are getting ready to move out.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> You don't have to have an agreement, for food items you simply don't impose a tariff.


You are right that the UK government can choose to unilaterally remove all tariffs and quotas on food imports and, other things being equal, prices would fall.

Those 'other things' do, though, include our own food producers being happy or ignored as their competition increases.

And even then, the effect of Brexit on the value of the pound is something the government can't do much about. Brexit has already increased food prices and helped inflation to 2.3%, outstripping wage rises. Further falls will exacerbate the effect.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> Doesn't work like that, which is why we have all these complicated ten-plus-years-in the-negotiating agreements in the first place...


You are right, it would probably have to be part of a trade deal, I was getting carried away in the moment! However we could still impose a zero tariff of food, there is no reason for it to increase in price. And with just the UK negotiating with other countries (bar the EU) one on one there's no need for it to take a decade to get deals in place.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> You are right that the UK government can choose to unilaterally remove all tariffs and quotas on food imports and, other things being equal, prices would fall.
> 
> Those 'other things' do, though, include our own food producers being happy or ignored as their competition increases.
> 
> And even then, the effect of Brexit on the value of the pound is something the government can't do much about. Brexit has already increased food prices and helped inflation to 2.3%, outstripping wage rises. Further falls will exacerbate the effect.


I guess you could continue to subsidise agriculture to level the field with cheaper producing countries.

I'm off now, I vowed not to get involved in Brexit speculation but have failed


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> But they can dump produce from one EU country on another and ruin their industry. It's like saying that we are only allowed to be the financial center and other countries will feed us


"Dumping" as defined by world trade is hard to do with free movement of goods and especially using the same currency, you just get it from where it is cheapest/best. Yes this may well mean that poland is cheaper due to wages but if that was the case, why haven't BMW etc all moved there?



cheekyscrip said:


> @rona you are the loveliest person, but I trust @Goblin on economy.


I'm no economist, simply report what I find out, happy to be corrected.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> I guess you could continue to subsidise agriculture to level the field with cheaper producing countries.
> 
> I'm off now, I vowed not to get involved in Brexit speculation but have failed


We don't currently subsidise agriculture to a degree that levels the field with cheaper producing countries - other countries are always going to be able to produce many crops more cheaply for significant reasons that are not going to change. Also, the EU provides the majority of agricultural subsidies (which won't be there any more, of course), so either the price of UK crops will have to rise significantly (and consumers will have to commit to buying them over cheaper imports), or we have to find a whole lot of extra taxpayer money from somewhere to carry on with the subsidies. Probably both.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> But they can dump produce from one EU country on another and ruin their industry. It's like saying that we are only allowed to be the financial center and other countries will feed us


The EU tried to impose tariffs on China to prevent it dumping its cheap steel - the Tories blocked it!.

The EU cares more about our industry than the government does.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...pts-regulate-chinese-dumping?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> I guess you could continue to subsidise agriculture to level the field with cheaper producing countries.


Not allowed to. If you do then those subsidies may be reflected as additional tariffs to all your exports. countries do still keep trying to find loopholes. One of the ones I heard was providing a government grant at the "government rate of interest" rather than the standard rate as it worked out cheaper. Didn't work as it was the interest rate difference was calculated as a subsidy.

As far as the EU goes, they worked out a dispensation deal with the WTO along with other agreements which allow them to get away with a lot. Doesn't mean it gets away with everything. The US took the EU to court about subsidies for Airbus for example.

UK will lose all those dispensations when leaving the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> I guess you could continue to subsidise agriculture to level the field with cheaper producing countries.


Yes you could. So instead of imposing tariffs on imported food, we're going to subsidise our own producers.

Consumers thereby don't have to pay more for food, but instead have to pay more tax not only to subsidise the farmers but also to make up for the lost tariff income that we were getting before.

Sounds like the only ones gaining there are the foreign food exporters.


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> Yes you could. So instead of imposing tariffs on imported food, we're going to subsidise our own producers.


Again, isn't allowed. Only way some experts could see it happening would be something like tax breaks across a wide range of people disguising the effect of it acting as subsidy (from 2 hour discussion on youtube about the system involving experts both lawyers and economists). If recognised as a subsidy, internal market sould be fine as I believe it affects only import/export tariff levels not the subsidy is illegal. Potentially cheaper imports though to balance the "unfair subsidy".

Of course that leads to another issue.. who is the arbitrator for any trade disputes?


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> So what about non financial services what do not fall on WTO rules?
> View attachment 303962
> View attachment 303963
> 
> EU will be ok without X Factor, BBC, and planes will fly away...to find other owners.
> How big is that loss for our economy and our employment?


Lol I can live without the xfactor, honey g was the final straw for many lol


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> A free trade deal between Australia and USA took just over a year


I would hope the UK spends more time to get things right.

http://insidestory.org.au/the-costs-of-australias-free-trade-agreement-with-america



> The conclusions of the Productivity Commission's review apply to AUSFTA. Deals that are struck in haste for primarily political reasons carry risk of substantial economic damage.


Now I wonder, would the UK government do anything for political gain instead of doing something right?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I would hope the UK spends more time to get things right.
> 
> http://insidestory.org.au/the-costs-of-australias-free-trade-agreement-with-america
> 
> Now I wonder, would the UK government do anything for political gain instead of doing something right?


Well if TM does get this right and gets the UK out of the EU she's definitely got my vote in the 2020 Election.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Well if TM does get this right and gets the UK out of the EU she's definitely got my vote in the 2020 Election.


Many people will, she's a great politician where people believe what she says even when her actions are the opposite of those words.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Again, isn't allowed. Only way some experts could see it happening would be something like tax breaks across a wide range of people disguising the effect of it acting as subsidy (from 2 hour discussion on youtube about the system involving experts both lawyers and economists). If recognised as a subsidy, internal market sould be fine as I believe it affects only import/export tariff levels not the subsidy is illegal. Potentially cheaper imports though to balance the "unfair subsidy".
> 
> Of course that leads to another issue.. who is the arbitrator for any trade disputes?


Not allowed by whom?

I was assuming post-Brexit and that we ignore WTO rules as well. Nothing to stop us, (except economic sense) and it is even advocated by some group - might have been Economists for Britain or some such daft title ...


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> Not allowed by whom?
> 
> I was assuming post-Brexit and that we ignore WTO rules as well. Nothing to stop us, (except economic sense) and it is even advocated by some group - might have been Economists for Britain or some such daft title ...


Right now even the hard Brexiteers are advocating the WTO rules as our 'safety net' in case we don't get an agreement with the EU.

If we did decide to leave the WTO too (and yes, you can do that), then we would be 'free' to impose our own trade rules - but the reverse would also be true. So (the way I understand it) everyone from the big trading blocks like the EU, USA, China, Russia etc. down to individual nation states would have no limits on what they could request in a trade agreement.

And given how small our relative consumer base is, the dimished influence we wield these days, plus the residual legacy of bad feeling towards us from a large chunk of the globe (a hangover from the Empire, two world wars and one world cup - doo dah  ), a no hold barred trade fight against the whole of the rest of the world will probably be a bit one-sided.


----------



## Goblin

Jesthar said:


> If we did decide to leave the WTO too (and yes, you can do that), then we would be 'free' to impose our own trade rules - but the reverse would also be true. So (the way I understand it) everyone from the big trading blocks like the EU, USA, China, Russia etc. down to individual nation states would have no limits on what they could request in a trade agreement.


Important to note that we are already a member of the WTO as the UK not part of the EU. We could leave it. Thing is if we left it would most likely lead to trade wars with various countries. Personally I don't see us winning a trade war with China, the US or even the EU. The other question would obviously be, how much is the government going to spend on things like subsidies for industry? In the end it could work out far more expensive than being a member of the EU just in financial terms. Then there's the simple trust issue. When on our own can we afford to be seen as untrustworthy as a nation?

Of course we are mostly talking about tarriffs here. Far more to international trade than tariffs as already mentioned. Product Standards, allowed ingredients etc etc etc all of which have a part to play not only in trade deals but trade in general.


----------



## Arnie83

@Jesthar / @Goblin

I agree it's a daft idea but it's being mooted by a group called Economists for Free Trade. (Does what it says on the tin.)

Perhaps they figure that since we're shooting ourselves in the foot in any case, we might as well shoot ourselves in both!


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> no hold barred trade fight against the whole of the rest of the world


Why should it be a fight



Goblin said:


> Of course we are mostly talking about tarriffs here


and why does there need to be tariffs
Australia has free trade agreements with 13 countries or regions


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Why should it be a fight


We were talking in the context of the UK leaving the WTO too. In that case, there are no ground rules for negotiations. Personally, I do not have faith that _all _other countries, once freed from the framework of the WTO, would play nicely. Some might, but there are plenty who could easily choose to have us over a barrel (as we need what they produce but they don't really need anything from us). We'll be small fry, after all, and in the wild small fry usually end up as lunch.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> We were talking in the context of the UK leaving the WTO too. In that case, there are no ground rules for negotiations. Personally, I do not have faith that _all _other countries, once freed from the framework of the WTO, would play nicely. Some might, but there are plenty who could easily choose to have us over a barrel (as we need what they produce but they don't really need anything from us). We'll be small fry, after all, and in the wild small fry usually end up as lunch.


I think you've got that arse-about-face, tariffs are imposed by the importing country. If you are exporting you don't willingly add a tariff to make your products more expensive.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> I think you've got that arse-about-face, tariffs are imposed by the importing country. If you are exporting you don't willingly add a tariff to make your products more expensive.


Quite right, Sherlock, but _other_ countries can quite merrily say "Unless you agree to our demands that heavily favour us in the deal, we'll put massive tarrifs on your imports to us. Given that we don't actually _need _your stuff, but you _really _need what we have and all that..."


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Australia has free trade agreements with 13 countries or regions


Just a quick search shows a 29% levy on wines and other alcoholic beverages and 33% on certain expensive cars when importing into Australia. Depends on the terms of the agreement. Then again Australia want a free trade agreement withh the UK including easing of visa restriictions.



Jesthar said:


> Personally, I do not have faith that _all _other countries, once freed from the framework of the WTO, would play nicely.


Trade agreements are always "what can we get out of it" rather than the idea of fair. Not a trade deal but anyone remember the "extradition treaty" between the UK and our great friend and partner the US


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> Quite right, Sherlock, but _other_ countries can quite merrily say "Unless you agree to our demands that heavily favour us in the deal, we'll put massive tarrifs on your imports to us. Given that we don't actually _need _your stuff, but you _really _need what we have and all that..."


Don't think so. I can't think of anything one country produces that another doesn't. And don't mention China, they'll sell their cheap crap wherever they can whilst ignoring all patents and copyright!


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Australia has free trade agreements with 13 countries or regions


There's free trade and free trade. I may be wrong - I haven't looked into all the Oz fta's - but the likelihood is that free trade covers certain products or industries but not all. They aren't just a question of a quick meeting, agree to remove all barriers and start the next Monday morning.

Some countries want to protect 'traditional' industries from competition. Some have old and sclerotic industries which will suffer from newer, more technologically advanced competition. Some are trying to get new industries off the ground, which would be prevented from doing so by established industries in other countries. Etc etc.

The idea of free trade is that by specialising in what you're good at, 2 countries can produce more together than separately and cheaper. That's fine on paper but you've got all the above, plus the need to move resources from the industry you're sacrificing to the one in which you're specialising, which is fine unless you work in the former and are too old / incapable / unwilling to retrain or move to where the jobs go.

Free trade is a great idea that very rarely actually happens.

In fact I know of only one trade area that comes close to completely free, and that, of course, is the EU single market. I know we're leaving it - apparently the People don't want to be part of it any more - but it really is an amazing economic achievement, despite all its faults and need for further work.


----------



## Goblin

Ah patents and copyright, yet another thing requiring to be negotiated. Should hopefully be simple.. Yes we'll abide from both sides.


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> In fact I know of only one trade area that comes close to completely free, and that, of course, is the EU single market. I know we're leaving it - apparently the People don't want to be part of it any more - but it really is an amazing economic achievement, despite all its faults and need for further work.


What gets me is the lack of recognition, we may have 10 trade deals with various countries which may mean a factory exporting may need 10 different "product lines" instead of one to match necessary product standards/requirements for the different countries.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Ah patents and copyright, yet another thing requiring to be negotiated. Should hopefully be simple.. Yes we'll abide from both sides.


Actually when you apply for a patent you apply for it in the territories you require, so no change there then for us. Unless we go the way of China and just ignor them all. Either way no negotiations needed.

BTW, I don't really expect us to go the way of China!

Definitely, absolutely definitely out of this thread now!!


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually when you apply for a patent you apply for it in the territories you require, so no change there then for us. Unless we go the way of China and just ignor them all. Either way no negotiations needed.


So.. who is wil arbitrate disputes?


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> What gets me is the lack of recognition, we may have 10 trade deals with various countries which may mean a factory exporting may need 10 different "product lines" instead of one to match necessary product standards/requirements for the different countries.


Enough of your inconvenient facts.

The People have spoken and we will seamlessly flit to the sunlit uplands.


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> Some might, but there are plenty who could easily choose to have us over a barrel


Oh like the one EU countries have over us now, particularly with our now defuncted energy supplies which are almost totally owned by other EU countries



Arnie83 said:


> - but the likelihood is that free trade covers certain products or industries but not all.


That seem eminently sensible to me. Mutual benefits rather than benefits all going one way.
Deal with one or two countries for one commodity, and other countries for whatever we want from them and they want from us.

Canada actually has free trade with 40 different countries


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> despite all its faults and need for further work.


And what did they do when told, and told and told again?

Just shrugged it off and took no notice. Us leaving may be the thing that kick starts their reform, but I doubt it somehow


----------



## rona

New Zealand has 10 FTA and actively negotiating another 9

Norway has 16!!


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> And what did they do when told, and told and told again?
> 
> Just shrugged it off and took no notice. Us leaving may be the thing that kick starts their reform, but I doubt it somehow


Well it's all moot now of course, but for me the Lisbon Treaty addressed the issue of democratic accountability which a lot of people had a problem with. So they're moving a damn site quicker on that than Westminster has or will.

But without knowing what, specifically you are referring to when you say they were repeatedly told, I perhaps cant give a relevant answer.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So.. who is wil arbitrate disputes?


Well the same as now, the country in which the patent is bring broken will take action against the business/person selling the goods in that country. So not change there either.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> New Zealand has 10 FTA and actively negotiating another 9
> 
> Norway has 16!!


Incredible, perhaps while you are pushing all those number you can tell us how many does the EU has. Those which we will lose:


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Well it's all moot now of course, but for me the Lisbon Treaty addressed the issue of democratic accountability which a lot of people had a problem with. So they're moving a damn site quicker on that than Westminster has or will.
> 
> But without knowing what, specifically you are referring to when you say they were repeatedly told, I perhaps cant give a relevant answer.


All good on paper...........


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Incredible, perhaps while you are pushing all those number you can tell us how many does the EU has. Those which we will lose:
> View attachment 304040


Yes but the EU also puts on so many restrictions and takes many many years to negotiate. One of you remainers pointed that out and I pointed out that they don't have to take that long when we negotiate 

I'm just reacting and posting in answer to others postings. I'm done with trying to persuade anyone of anything. I'm just countering others rather alarmist or maybe sometimes wrong statements and giving the other alternatives or info. I'm buggered if I'm spending hours going into every little detail just to prove to people who aren't even open minded to the fact that we may have done the right thing


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Well the same as now, the country in which the patent is bring broken will take action against the business/person selling the goods in that country. So not change there either.


But not the same as what was supposed to happen in the EU with the introduction of the Unified Patent Court (UPC) created to simplify matters so people only have to claim once throughout the EU.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Yes but the EU also puts on so many restrictions and takes many many years to negotiate. One of you remainers pointed that out and I pointed out that they don't have to take that long when we negotiate


They take that long to ensure they are actually fit for purpose. Bad trade deal is worse than none at all.

Remember this one:


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> All good on paper...........


I'm afraid that doesn't get me any closer to understanding your point.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> But not the same as what was supposed to happen in the EU with the introduction of the Unified Patent Court (UPC) created to simplify matters so people only have to claim once throughout the EU.


 I presume you would still apply for a EU patent rather than 27 individual one's, just like every country does now, what will change?


----------



## noushka05

I've made this list off the top of my head of those for & against brexit. This is it up to now.

Those who think brexit is a good thing - The Government, Farage & ukip, Britain First, National Front, BNP, EDL, Trump, Putin, Le Pen, Wilders. The non dom billionaire media barons who control a huge percentage of our media - Murdoch, Rothermere (& Dacre), Desmond, Barcley Brothers. Katie Hopkins.

Those who think brexit will be a disaster - Caroline Lucas & the Green Party, Labour (despite being useless), SNP, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein, trusted public figures & world renowned academics including - David Attenborough, Prof Brian Cox. Stephen Hawking, Nobel Prize winning geneticist Sir Paul Nurse, Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman, Noam Chomsky, consensus of environmentalists & green NGOs, consensus of economists.

If anyone wishes to add to it, feel free


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> I presume you would still apply for a EU patent rather than 27 individual one's, just like every country does now, what will change?


One of the goals of the UPC would be to claim only once through the system rather than individual countries. No expert though. UK will not be part of the UPC by default despite being integral to it's development. Was supposed to be in place this year. No idea about copyright which may or may not be similar.

Different topic but was also looking forward to the idea of http://www.sciencealert.com/europe-...-articles-should-be-freely-accessible-by-2020 although I expect the timeline stated was very optimistic.


----------



## cheekyscrip

So who got us into EU?

Our PM, our MPs who we democratically elected?

We benefited from that.

Prospered. If we did not join we would be left behind.
City will nit be what it is now.
Thatcher was great champion of EU and instrumental in bringing down the Iron Curtain, expanding EU by members happy to liaise with UK.

Then our own government failed to lift up North of England.
EU gets the blame!!!!

NHS and education underfunded..EU gets the blame!!!
Benefit system is abused ( by our own)..EU is to blame!!!!

We invited young , cheap workforce, who were happy to offer their services at wages we would not want...

Oh, we are so happy to use it, but nit happy to provide infrastructure?
We are vastly annoyed they want to send kids to school, use NHS and live somewhere, where they can afford...

Blame EU!!!
Now , right now Brexit already affects people who live in EU, but get pensions in pounds. It affects EU nationals in UK.
It affects Gibraltar...the prices of food, companies closing...

It already ruined Qrops industry aka - your pensions!!!

Only because EU became a scapegoat for all shortcomings of our own govs.

EU is far from ideal.

Merkel clearly overstepped her mark.
Still this is why we are to ruin so many lives of so many people?

Also in EU...like our frontier workers...many of them British anyhow.

Brexit will benefit Putin and those businesses who bankrolled Brexit.
It will ruin our healthcare, education, social care, science, environment protection, pensions.

We will all pay for it.

Huge costs of ruining our own country for the sake of nostalgia, utopia and ignorance.

Do you really think if we did not join we still would be in 1973?


People will suffer a lot during the next many years and when the dust settles you will see different, but not better UK.

War against America springs to mind.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> I'm afraid that doesn't get me any closer to understanding your point.


Try this one then. This is from an official UK report to parliament on EU finances
"The EU makes some payments directly to the private sector"

"These payments do not appear in the public sector's accounts. It is estimated that in 2013, these receipts were worth £1.4 billion. These payments are not included in Tables which provide data on public sector receipts only."

That's just one tiny fraction of what goes missing in the EU finances every year.
Whatever is written has usually a tiny piece that means they can do what they want and to hell with us (us as the little people not just the UK)


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> They take that long to ensure they are actually fit for purpose. Bad trade deal is worse than none at all.


No it's not, it's because all the ruddy countries can't agree. Others do very nicely arranging their own trade deals in less than half the time. 
Yes some will take a long time, but others can be sorted fairly swiftly.

I''m sure everyone has regretted a deal at some point, trade deals are not immune from that. Lets face it, the EU is about to screw the African nations if they can soon


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Try this one then. This is from an official UK report to parliament on EU finances
> "The EU makes some payments directly to the private sector"
> 
> "These payments do not appear in the public sector's accounts. It is estimated that in 2013, these receipts were worth £1.4 billion. These payments are not included in Tables which provide data on public sector receipts only."
> 
> That's just one tiny fraction of what goes missing in the EU finances every year.
> Whatever is written has usually a tiny piece that means they can do what they want and to hell with us (us as the little people not just the UK)


Hmmm.... That does not happen in UK? No corruption, no fishy dealings?

Sir Green? Murdoch?

No expenses fiddled?

By our own honorable MPs?

And obviously with no control from EU it will never happen again?

Greedy, selfish politicians are unheard off in UK....
Or greedy bankers?

So unBritish....
@rona ...throw the first stone....


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> No it's not, it's because all the ruddy countries can't agree. Others do very nicely arranging their own trade deals in less than half the time.
> Yes some will take a long time, but others can be sorted fairly swiftly.
> 
> I''m sure everyone has regretted a deal at some point, trade deals are not immune from that. Lets face it, the EU is about to screw the African nations if they can soon


Britain never ever screwed African or any other nations apparently....

Whiter than white in that department!!!


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Try this one then. This is from an official UK report to parliament on EU finances
> "The EU makes some payments directly to the private sector"


So nothing like the payment to Toyota then linked earlier where the government paid them. How much have we been told about the Nissan deal government made behind closed doors?

I get it, you don't like the EU. You still have not provided information on how life will be better due to leaving other than wishful thinking.

As you pushed the trade deal aspect, here's another one for you not that the UK will be able to take advantage of it for long: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...alks-at-decisive-stage-as-trump-gives-impetus



rona said:


> No it's not, it's because all the ruddy countries can't agree. Others do very nicely arranging their own trade deals in less than half the time.
> Yes some will take a long time, but others can be sorted fairly swiftly.


There's a reason the EU is in such a powerful position when negotiating trade deals which benefit the countries belonging to them. It's because of market size. That means every country may be affected by a trade deal differently. So they use allow each country a say. How is this a weakness? It means things like TTIP can be rejected whereas the UK goverment wanted it. I know you quoted the Australian trade agreement taking a year. Maybe you failed to read the fact it was an exception in terms of how little time it took and didn't work as intended. Proof is in the amount of deals the EU has created.



> I''m sure everyone has regretted a deal at some point, trade deals are not immune from that. Lets face it, the EU is about to screw the African nations if they can soon


Erm.. evidence? Or are you saying that as african nations aren't as powerful they get poorer trade deals just as the UK will.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Britain never ever screwed African or any other nations apparently....
> 
> Whiter than white in that department!!!


I haven't even hinted at that but the remainers keep telling me and everyone else how marvellous this EU institution is and I say it's corrupt and protectionist.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Erm.. evidence? Or are you saying that as african nations aren't as powerful they get poorer trade deals just as the UK will.


Just look at it it's bloody obvious it won't benefit the people, all it will do is flood the market with EU tat and destroy there own industries as it has here


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I haven't even hinted at that but the remainers keep telling me and everyone else how marvellous this EU institution is and I say it's corrupt and protectionist.


And please tell me how the UK is any different?


----------



## rona

http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/how-the-eu-starves-africa/

http://www.euractiv.com/section/dev...troys-development-policy-says-merkel-advisor/
"The African countries cannot compete with an economy like Germany's. As a result, free trade and EU imports endanger existing industries, and future industries do not even materialise because they are exposed to competition from the EU,"

"But according to Green MEP Ska Keller, the EPA hurts regional trade, and does not leave partner countries any room to develop their own industries, create jobs and thereby pull people out of poverty. "Developing countries have a gun pointed at their chest - either they sign or their market access to the EU is restricted," Keller said, "the EPA is the opposite of development cooperation."

In other words they've been forced to sign
Just look it up, there's plenty out there from different sources to say that it's only the EU that will benefit


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> And please tell me how the UK is any different?


Why, that's not the issue


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Just look at it it's bloody obvious it won't benefit the people, all it will do is flood the market with EU tat and destroy there own industries as it has here


So no evidence, only EU hatred.

The EU signed an Economic Partnership Agreement (EPA) in June 2016 with Botswana, Lesotho, Mozambique, Namibia, South Africa and Swaziland. Angola has an option to join the agreement in future. Let's look at some figures which can easily be found to demonstrate how they will be totally exploited.

EU imports: diamonds, oil, aluminum, platinum, agricultural products such as beef, fish and sugar and fruit.
EU exports: vehicles, machinery, electrical equipment, pharmaceuticals and processed food

So what about the numbers in billions of €:

2014 EU imports 32.5 and exports 31.8
2015 EU imports 31.8 and exports 32.0
2016 EU imports 32.0 and exports 27.8

Yep sure seems as though it will be total exploitation at work.

A similar agreement is being made with other African countries.

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1509 may be of interest

For those who hate reading links:


> By signing the agreement, all participants commit themselves to work towards sustainable development, including by upholding social and environmental standards. The EPA also establishes a consultation procedure for environmental or labour issues and defines a comprehensive list of areas in which the partners will cooperate to foster sustainable development.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Why, that's not the issue


Yes it is considering you voted to remove additional levels of holding people in power to account whilst giving them even more power.


----------



## rona

http://www.un.org/en/africarenewal/newrels/new-trade-pact-08.html

"UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, in a report to a 22 September high-level meeting in the General Assembly on Africa's development needs, was also critical of the interim EPAs. Because they have been negotiated with individual countries, "without paying particular attention to existing regional economic communities," Mr. Ban argued, the interim EPAs "will slow down or unravel the regional integration agenda."

*"Pressure to sign*
Partly because of widespread opposition to EPAs among African governments, civil society groups, unions and trade experts, the two sides failed to reach an agreement on schedule. Only 18 African countries initialed interim EPAs by the close of 2007, including eight African LDCs. Since LDCs already enjoyed guaranteed duty-free access to the EU they had no urgent reason to sign the interim agreements. Some critics claim there have been political and economic pressures to sign.

Malawian President Bingu wa Mutharika has gone as far as to accuse the EU of "imperialism," saying it was punishing countries that resisted signing the EPAs by threatening to withhold aid - a claim firmly denied by Alessandro Mariani, the head of the EU delegation to Malawi."

The only positives I can find on the deal is from the South African government. I'm sure a few of the richer countries will benefit Kenya may do ok, but what about the others?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> So no evidence, only EU hatred.
> 
> The EU signed an Economic Partnership Agreement (EPA) in June 2016 with Botswana, Lesotho, Mozambique, Namibia, South Africa and Swaziland. Angola has an option to join the agreement in future. Let's look at some figures which can easily be found to demonstrate how they will be totally exploited.
> 
> EU imports: diamonds, oil, aluminum, platinum, agricultural products such as beef, fish and sugar and fruit.
> EU exports: vehicles, machinery, electrical equipment, pharmaceuticals and processed food
> 
> So what about the numbers in billions of €:
> 
> 2014 EU imports 32.5 and exports 31.8
> 2015 EU imports 31.8 and exports 32.0
> 2016 EU imports 32.0 and exports 27.8
> 
> Yep sure seems as though it will be total exploitation at work.
> 
> A similar agreement is being made with other African countries.
> 
> http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1509 may be of interest
> 
> For those who hate reading links:


Yep the EU link would say that wouldn't it. Go read from the other perspective. You might learn something


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> "UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, in a report to a 22 September high-level meeting"...."


Maybe you need to find a link which is actually up to date and dealing with the present situation. How about the fact your link suggests South Africa and Nambia walked away and the fact the phrase "interim EPA" is frequently used.


----------



## rona

Here you go then. From the EU itself
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_113447.pdf

I don't know why it has to be up to date to show the underhand tactics of the EU. Which is the main reason I voted out

I've always said I made my decision based on years of watching and listening and not just a stupid campaign as you would have others believe we all did


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/how-the-eu-starves-africa/
> 
> http://www.euractiv.com/section/dev...troys-development-policy-says-merkel-advisor/
> "The African countries cannot compete with an economy like Germany's. As a result, free trade and EU imports endanger existing industries, and future industries do not even materialise because they are exposed to competition from the EU,"
> 
> "But according to Green MEP Ska Keller, the EPA hurts regional trade, and does not leave partner countries any room to develop their own industries, create jobs and thereby pull people out of poverty. "Developing countries have a gun pointed at their chest - either they sign or their market access to the EU is restricted," Keller said, "the EPA is the opposite of development cooperation."
> 
> In other words they've been forced to sign
> Just look it up, there's plenty out there from different sources to say that it's only the EU that will benefit


Yes...exactly.In economy the strongest is at advantage. Hence trading blocs.
Single country is very much at the mercy of the stronger one, proportionally to the difference.
Both can benefit, but not equally.

Think you proved the point: By going out of EU we put ourselves at exactly such disadvantage.

In.business it is " dog eat dog" and vultures are circling already...

You tell me who bankrolled Brexit ?
Ever wondered it was not a charity?


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes...exactly.In economy the strongest is at advantage. Hence trading blocs.
> Single country is very much at the mercy of the stronger one, proportionally to the difference.
> Both can benefit, but not equally.
> 
> Think you proved the point: By going out of EU we put ourselves at exactly such disadvantage.


I''d rather that than screwing the poor

Bloody hypocrites


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I''d rather that than screwing the poor
> 
> Bloody hypocrites


Well...now we will be " the poor".

For a change. Funny dat.

Great pity it had to start with Gibraltar though as we did not volunteer.

Both sides of the frontier. All expats that have pensions in pounds. 
Many need warmer climate because of their health issues.
Their property currently lost up to the half of value if around Campo de Gibraltar.

Do you think EU nationals in UK are the rich?
Because Brexit will hit them as it already hit @shadowmare.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Here you go then. From the EU itself
> http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_113447.pdf
> 
> I don't know why it has to be up to date to show the underhand tactics of the EU. Which is the main reason I voted out


Yes we know you hate the EU. Chart of figures already summarized doesn't do a lot though does it.



rona said:


> I''d rather that than screwing the poor


Even if the EU was and is (no friends in trade relations), surely stopping the exploitation would be important. Can't do that outside and the UK would of had a veto just like Wallonia.

You are really grasping at straws. I'll leave you to it.


----------



## rona

2016
https://www.trademarkea.com/news/east-africa-team-faults-eac-eu-epa-deal/

2016
http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/...tes-are-refusing-to-sign-on-to-eu-trade-deals

2017
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ks-south-africa-s-trade-relations-with-europe

Last month
http://allafrica.com/stories/201702240047.html

1hr ago
http://citizen.co.za/news/news-nati...rs-measured-approach-poultry-industry-crisis/

up to date enough for you?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> 2016
> https://www.trademarkea.com/news/east-africa-team-faults-eac-eu-epa-deal/
> 
> 2016
> http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/...tes-are-refusing-to-sign-on-to-eu-trade-deals
> 
> 2017
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ks-south-africa-s-trade-relations-with-europe
> 
> Last month
> http://allafrica.com/stories/201702240047.html
> 
> 1hr ago
> http://citizen.co.za/news/news-nati...rs-measured-approach-poultry-industry-crisis/
> 
> up to date enough for you?


Now you trying to tell me those billionaires who bankrolled Brexit, some money traced to arm dealing moguls...did it to support poor African nations?
Pity they did not take more direct approach....


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> 2016


Actually http://www.concord.se/wp-content/uploads/Spotlight_2015-TRADE-EPA-April_2015-EN.pdf far better to prove your point. (oh look a report part financed by the eu). Unlike some, prepared to admit I was wrong when provided with applicable evidence.

So now you have been shown to be right. The EU dictates terms, demonstrating the position of of the UK trade possibilities. Given your line of argument, just how does leaving the EU help prevent things like this?

Not that I believe that was your reasoning for leaving to begin with 

How does the UK becoming a tax haven for big businesses help? How does the rise in xenophobia and things like the call for the abandonment of foreign aid actually help?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Actually http://www.concord.se/wp-content/uploads/Spotlight_2015-TRADE-EPA-April_2015-EN.pdf far better to prove your point. (oh look a report part financed by the eu). Unlike some, prepared to admit I was wrong when provided with applicable evidence.
> 
> So now you have been shown to be right. The EU dictates terms, demonstrating the position of of the UK trade possibilities. Given your line of argument, just how does leaving the EU help prevent things like this?
> 
> Not that I believe that was your reasoning for leaving to begin with
> 
> How does the UK becoming a tax haven for big businesses help? How does the rise in xenophobia and things like the call for the abandonment of foreign aid actually help?


Spain flexed their muscle today...hours of queues, traffic blocked by queue tailbacks ..

We are very close to Africa....

Debate on Gibraltar today in House of Lords...nearly empty ...few old dears sleeping...


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> Debate on Gibraltar today in House of Lords...nearly empty ...few old dears sleeping...


Sorry to hear that @cheekyscrip Then again it's not "newsworthy" enough for the politicians is it


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Spain flexed their muscle today...hours of queues, traffic blocked by queue tailbacks ..
> 
> .


Usual bully boy tactics of Spain then.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Debate on Gibraltar today in House of Lords...nearly empty ...few old dears sleeping...


Are you sure it couldn't have been anything to do with the terrorist attack taking place outside of Parliament today and Parliament going into lockdown? Everyone inside both houses weren't allowed to move from were they where. Just a thought.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Are you sure it couldn't have been anything to do with the terrorist attack taking place outside of Parliament today and Parliament going into lockdown? Everyone inside both houses weren't allowed to move from were they where. Just a thought.


Our news said it was to do with tobacco found in one car!!!! Therefore as punishment they were opening every boot and searching...but not taking the searched car away...but blocking the line.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Sorry to hear that @cheekyscrip Then again it's not "newsworthy" enough for the politicians is it


Aren't we the " little people" @rona?

Brexit will hurt the poor the most. They may slip below breadline. In UK , not in Africa.


----------



## KittenKong

An old article I've just been referred to.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-myths-and-our-disgraceful-press-followed-his


----------



## Bisbow

Oh my,
you must be getting desperate to recycle articles that old
I have sais before none of you have an individual thought but keep repeating what others have said by others
You have just proved that beyond doubt


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> An old article I've just been referred to.
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-myths-and-our-disgraceful-press-followed-his
> 
> View attachment 304076
> View attachment 304077
> View attachment 304078
> View attachment 304078
> View attachment 304078
> View attachment 304079
> View attachment 304080


Wasn't Johnson the one who actually fabricated the bendy banana lie when he was an EU correspondent? I know he got sacked for making things up!

And people think this bunch of compulsive liars will get us out of the mess we're in


----------



## noushka05

What a surprise -

There is a "real risk that any new arrangements... when the UK leaves the EU will...
[leave] the people of the United Kingdom less safe."


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Wasn't Johnson the one who actually fabricated the bendy banana lie when he was an EU correspondent? I know he got sacked for making things up!
> 
> And people think this bunch of compulsive liars will get us out of the mess we're in


Absolutely. 
Just been alerted to this fascinating A-Z on Euro myths people have been drip fed over the years.

Far too many to even give an example, but here are the links:

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/media/euromyths.html


----------



## KittenKong

From 1998

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/lets-quit-eu-and-link-up-with-america/


----------



## Bisbow

You have proved my point once again


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> An old article I've just been referred to.
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-myths-and-our-disgraceful-press-followed-his
> 
> View attachment 304076
> View attachment 304077
> View attachment 304078
> View attachment 304078
> View attachment 304078
> View attachment 304079
> View attachment 304080


Damn it. I voted to leave because of the proposed ban on prawn cocktail crisps. Now you tell us it isn't true, oh enlightened one. I demand another referendum.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> You have proved my point once again


Thing is the remain information, being based on facts doesn't change according to which way the wind is blowing. Unlike the leave campaign which will promise one thing then pretend it wasn't what they meant and X is now applicable.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Oh my,
> you must be getting desperate to recycle articles that old
> I have sais before none of you have an individual thought but keep repeating what others have said by others
> You have just proved that beyond doubt


I was alerted to this from another forum actually which was posted just the other day and had not been seen by myself before now.

After 363 pages it's not possible to memorise everything that's already been mentioned so it could indeed be possible things get repeated from time to time.

In addition how many newer members have time to trail through 7,250 posts on this thread alone?

In addition, how many times have we been told words to effect of, "We won, You lost, Get over it" on this thread?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Thing is the remain information, being based on facts doesn't change according to which way the wind is blowing. Unlike the leave campaign which will promise one thing then pretend it wasn't what they meant and X is now applicable.


The remain campaign was based on lies and fear which have already unraveled so there is no speculation on their outlandish claims as it's now history. Meanwhile we are still waiting for Brexit and things will change, exactly what or when remain to be seen. So yes "x" may well end up incorrect, or correct, we just don't know yet, hence all the speculation.


----------



## Bisbow

Of course there will be ups and downs when we leave, it is inevitable but we leavers are not sitting in abject fear waiting for the country to fall into a heap

We will face it, get over the downs and praise the ups, we will have the fortitude to look for a good future for the next generation

We are resilient and will survive what will come


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> The remain campaign was based on lies and fear which have already unraveled so there is no speculation on their outlandish claims as it's now history. Meanwhile we are still waiting for Brexit and things will change, exactly what or when remain to be seen. So yes "x" may well end up incorrect, or correct, we just don't know yet, hence all the speculation.


From where I'm standing some of what was dismissed as "Project fear" is already coming true, but that viewpoint depends on one's political views.

While it could be argued some of the claims could be regarded as gross exaggeration, realising the predictions were based on Article 50 being implemented immediately, I don't recall any deliberate lying from the leave camp.

Perhaps you could let us know of a deliberate Leave campaign lie as good as the £350m for the NHS one?


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> From where I'm standing some of what was dismissed as "Project fear" is already coming true, but that viewpoint depends on one's political views.
> 
> While it could be argued some of the claims could be regarded as gross exaggeration, realising the predictions were based on Article 50 being implemented immediately, I don't recall any deliberate lying from the leave camp.
> 
> Perhaps you could let us know of a deliberate Leave campaign lie as good as the £350m for the NHS one?


Well shall we start with the immediate emergency budget that would see at least 2% put on income tax? What did we get, the most underwhelming budget in living memory on it's usual date.

As of yet we don't know what extra money will be available for the NHS, who knows could be £350,000,000 a week or 27p a year. Actually it's obviously, and always has been, not going to be the full amount as their are 101 other things that'll need the cash as well. Personally I'm sick to the back teeth of the NHS constantly needing more money.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Of course there will be ups and downs when we leave, it is inevitable but we leavers are not sitting in abject fear waiting for the country to fall into a heap
> 
> We will face it, get over the downs and praise the ups, we will have the fortitude to look for a good future for the next generation
> 
> We are resilient and will survive what will come


Perhaps some recall the days of the ration book as part of the glory days. If food should become expensive they can always, "Dig for Victory".

You might think I'm insulting my forefathers by saying this. Not my intention. I heard a lot about the war and the post war period from my grandparents. They didn't fight and struggle in the hope future generations suffered what they had to go through.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Damn it. I voted to leave because of the proposed ban on prawn cocktail crisps. Now you tell us it isn't true, oh enlightened one. I demand another referendum.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> . Personally I'm sick to the back teeth of the NHS constantly needing more money.


Perhaps you are, but many who voted did so on what was on that bus.

I'm sure, soon enough everyone will have to take out health insurance like in America anyway so funding for the NHS can be spent on more worthwhile things like further tax cuts for millionaires for example.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> The remain campaign was based on lies and fear which have already unraveled


Really. You need to learn the difference of predictions which some people actually made (yes the remain campaign did take the worst) and simply deciding to lie outright. As for the claim you don't know if the NHS will get 350million a week. Well the politicians of the leave campaign already admitting it will not happen. In fact Boris on his own promised 111billion spending which somehow will be covered by the 10billion for the EU. I could go on listing almost every point of the leave campaign although probably most have already covered which leads to the default.. we won, shut up. So tell us, why.. what does the UK gain by leaving in reality?

As far as the NHS goes.. maybe you should look back at the NHS video for the leave campaign and explain exactly how it will happen when those in the NHS have stated the situation will be far worse than now.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps some recall the days of the ration book as part of the glory days. If food should become expensive they can always, "Dig for Victory".
> .


I well remember the ration book days, in fact I still have one somewhere
We didn't starve and we where a darn sight healthier than some of todays population.

We were raised to use our brains, think for ourselves and stick to what we believed in and not expect everything to be handed to us on a silver platter

And yes, we did "Dig for Victory"
My parents worked hard true, but we were happy and I had a good childhood


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Oh like the one EU countries have over us now, particularly with our now defuncted energy supplies which are almost totally owned by other EU countries


Now come on, that's got nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with overseas corporations from all over the world buying out or buying controlling shares in UK businesses. Main player is China at the moment, particularly the further up the ownership and investment chains you go. When you launch a business on the stock market, that's one of the risks you take.



rona said:


> I haven't even hinted at that but the remainers keep telling me and everyone else how marvellous this EU institution is and I say it's corrupt and protectionist.


No-one is saying the EU perfect. Or even close to perfect. It's flawed and has some pretty major issues, just like everything else in this crazy world. However, there are a lot of advantages to being part of the EU - the thing is, you mainly never see them as they are a part of the background of everyday life.

Of course there are obvious ones - being able to travel cheaply and easily, free healthcare abroad, not needing visas. I think we've done those to death in this thread 

Then there are the less obvious ones to the layman, such as EU product standards that ensure what is tested and passed as saleable in one EU country is saleable in all without going through separate standard tests in every country - and, because of the EU trade agreements, those standards area also accepted in a lot of the wider world too. This enables 'Just In Time' production lines to function effectively, as goods can pass easily throughout the EU. This has been a benefit for so long now that few remember the days when it took a week or two to import anything due to import red tape and mandatory standards testing for each import load. Plus all the goods that you could expect to go 'missing' during testing (due to the 'perks' of import workers), or mysteriously 'failed' testing (never to be seen again). There are plenty more examples of these things (new drugs approval, for obe), but you'd have to work in one of the many areas where they have made a massive difference to fully appreciate them. Now, we could retain some of these advantages if we remain part of the Customs Union, but at the moment the mood of our leaders means that seems unlikely.

And, of course, there are the myriad things we never think about but affect millions silently - equality rights, mental health rights, disability rights, working time directive, clean water/beach/air standards, emissions standards etc. I'm pretty sure we won't even identify a fraction of those factors until something happens that means we miss them.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure the UK will survive inside or out of the EU and/or the Customs Union etc. One article 50 is triggered, however, we will have to get used to being a much smaller player on the international stage, which I'm not sure a lot of leavers (the good people on this forum who did all their own research and weren't swayed by anything published by mainstream media excepted) are prepared for.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Really. You need to learn the difference of predictions which some people actually made (yes the remain campaign did take the worst) and simply deciding to lie outright. As for the claim you don't know if the NHS will get 350million a week. Well the politicians of the leave campaign already admitting it will not happen. In fact Boris on his own promised 111billion spending which somehow will be covered by the 10billion for the EU. I could go on listing almost every point of the leave campaign although probably most have already covered which leads to the default.. we won, shut up. So tell us, why.. what does the UK gain by leaving in reality?
> 
> As far as the NHS goes.. maybe you should look back at the NHS video for the leave campaign and explain exactly how it will happen when those in the NHS have stated the situation will be far worse than now.


No, George Osbourne himself said there *would* be a emergency budget and outlined what would be in it.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> No, George Osbourne himself said there *would* be a emergency budget and outlined what would be in it.


But wasn't around after to implement it. In fact if Cameron and Osbourne had been around there would likely have been one. When it comes to it May was at least sensible enough to withhold immediately handing in article 50 and that along with prompt action by the bank of england helped reduce the impact of the referendum which would have made it necessary. We still have to jump a lot of the hurdles but at least there will not be the same panic reaction there would have been. May's had time to bribe Nissan with back room dealing for example rather than immediately have them pull out the country. They still might.

Tell me, what campaign promises of the leave campaign were true and not designed to mislead.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> But wasn't around after to implement it. In fact if Cameron and Osbourne had been around there would likely have been one. When it comes to it May was at least sensible enough to withhold immediately handing in article 50 and that along with prompt action by the bank of england helped reduce the impact of the referendum which would have made it necessary. We still have to jump a lot of the hurdles but at least there will not be the same panic reaction there would have been. May's had time to bribe Nissan with back room dealing for example rather than immediately have them pull out the country. They still might.
> 
> Tell me, what campaign promises of the leave campaign were true and not designed to mislead.


C'mon...didn't you see it all on the buses?

I don't think NHS will make it, but maybe there is a hope for curved cucumbers and straight bananas?

And no more EU nurses, builders, doctors or veg pickers!!!

100 Watt bulbs for our future bright!!!!


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Tell me, what campaign promises of the leave campaign were true and not designed to mislead.


Can't particularly think of any, they were just as bad as the remain camp (but without the multi-million budget to drop misleading information through every front door in the country). Which is why I haven't defended their campaign.

Whereas the remainers seem to have gullibly lapped up everything Cameron and Co fed them and still defend it after the fact.

The whole thing was a bloody mess on both sides, so I voted on my own thoughts rather than the tripe spouted from our illustrious 'leaders".


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> I'm buggered if I'm spending hours going into every little detail


Yep; life's too short!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps some recall the days of the ration book as part of the glory days. If food should become expensive they can always, "Dig for Victory".
> 
> You might think I'm insulting my forefathers by saying this. Not my intention. I heard a lot about the war and the post war period from my grandparents. They didn't fight and struggle in the hope future generations suffered what they had to go through.


My thoughts exactly. I know my lovely grandparents would be horrified to think future generations would have to struggle the way they did. Everything they fought for thrown away & for what gain? . Do we really want to go back to no free health care for all?, no welfare safety net?, endemic poverty?. One of my Grandads sisters died of tb, two of my Nans little brothers died with the measles. My Nan was in service at 13 (her Mum lied about her age) & my Grandad was down the pit at 14.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> That's just one tiny fraction of what goes missing in the EU finances every year.


I read a book called ''Brussels Laid Bare'' (2009) by Marta Andreasen who was Chief Accountant (2002 I think) and who raised concerns about their accounting practices. It is quite an eye-opener; and one of the reasons I voted out.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Can't particularly think of any, they were just as bad as the remain camp (but without the multi-million budget to drop misleading information through every front door in the country). Which is why I haven't defended their campaign.
> 
> Whereas the remainers seem to have gullibly lapped up everything Cameron and Co fed them and still defend it after the fact.
> 
> The whole thing was a bloody mess on both sides, so I voted on my own thoughts rather than the tripe spouted from our illustrious 'leaders".


Actually , many remainers haven't gullibly lapped up everything Cameron & co fed them.

This is my very first post on this thread. Sadly everything I feared about this bent government is coming to pass.



noushka05 said:


> Currently voting IN. If France stops TTIP, I will definitely be voting IN. I am far more afraid of being at the mercy of ultra right wingers than staying in the EU which at least offers us some protection. The far rights rabid obsession with 'deregulating' everything that protects us & our environment is terrifying. Many of the key leavers (Johnson, Gove, Lawson. Farage, Paterson & so on) don't even believe in climate change. There is no hope at all of saving our environment if we leave the EU.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Can't particularly think of any, they were just as bad as the remain camp (but without the multi-million budget to drop misleading information through every front door in the country). Which is why I haven't defended their campaign.
> 
> Whereas the remainers seem to have gullibly lapped up everything Cameron and Co fed them and still defend it after the fact.


Actually remainers acknowledge the remain campaign was a mess and based on predictions which turned out false. Not defending those predictions but what is currently known. Still waiting for that from those who support leave about what the UK gains. To sum it up when we take out the lies from the leave campaign .. we leave the eu.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Actually remainers acknowledge the remain campaign was a mess and based on predictions which turned out false. Not defending those predictions but what is currently known. Still waiting for that from those who support leave about what the UK gains. To sum it up when we take out the lies from the leave campaign .. we leave the eu.


Trouble is remainers can claim unfounded lies were "predictions" . Brexit hasn't happened yet, and won't for a while, so your claims of lies might well turn out to be unfounded.

We'll find out what the gains are when we actually leave, today it's still all up in the air and no one knows for sure.

Let's face it, to date the negatives of voting leave have proved, mostly, unfounded. So why shouldn't all the doom and gloom of the remainers be equally unfounded when we actually leave? Time will tell.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Give praise we had the opportunity to leave this evil we call the EU

Cant wait for Eurovision.... Nil Pwoint


----------



## Colliebarmy

Between The EU and the Vatican, do we trust anyone?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> Trouble is remainers can claim unfounded lies were "predictions" . Brexit hasn't happened yet, and won't for a while, so your claims of lies might well turn out to be unfounded.
> 
> We'll find out what the gains are when we actually leave, today it's still all up in the air and no one knows for sure.
> 
> Let's face it, to date the negatives of voting leave have proved, mostly, unfounded. So why shouldn't all the doom and gloom of the remainers be equally unfounded when we actually leave? Time will tell.


Tell those here who earn in pounds and have to buy products imported in euros.
Tell that to all retired expats in EU whose pensions are in pounds.
Now Qrops are closing, which at least gave chance to expats to put their pensions ( except gov and state ones) into investments.

Tell this to those who wanted to study in EU or move to EU.

Tell that to us in Gibraltar, our economy affected by falling pound already.

Brexit directly caused pound diving down about 15% and it affects millions already.

Well....how pound is valued directly reflected our economy as seen globally.

If that is a proof?


----------



## KittenKong

This doesn't look good either....























Is this really what people voted for?


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> Tell those here who earn in pounds and have to buy products imported in euros.
> Tell that to all retired expats in EU whose pensions are in pounds.
> Now Qrops are closing, which at least gave chance to expats to put their pensions ( except gov and state ones) into investments.
> 
> Tell this to those who wanted to study in EU or move to EU.
> 
> Tell that to us in Gibraltar, our economy affected by falling pound already.
> 
> Brexit directly caused pound diving down about 15% and it affects millions already.
> 
> Well....how pound is valued directly reflected our economy as seen globally.
> 
> If that is a proof?


No it's not proof, because those living in the UK are doing just fine thanks, and it's the UK status that was voted for, nothing else. A weak pound is good for exports so many UK businesses are doing rather well. There would always be winners and losers whatever the outcome.

Move back to the UK and embrace the future.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Try this one then. This is from an official UK report to parliament on EU finances
> "The EU makes some payments directly to the private sector"
> 
> "These payments do not appear in the public sector's accounts. It is estimated that in 2013, these receipts were worth £1.4 billion. These payments are not included in Tables which provide data on public sector receipts only."
> 
> That's just one tiny fraction of what goes missing in the EU finances every year.
> Whatever is written has usually a tiny piece that means they can do what they want and to hell with us (us as the little people not just the UK)


Could you please provide a link to this source?


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> No it's not proof, because those living in the UK are doing just fine thanks, and it's the UK status that was voted for, nothing else. A week pound is good for exports so many UK businesses are doing rather well. There would always be winners and losers whatever the outcome.
> 
> Move back to the UK and embrace the future.


This post is a wind up, or is it?

Really? Why were the people of Gibraltar allowed the vote then? Are you admitting it doesn't matter to you and you believe Expats should all return to the UK to "embrace" the future??? Why the hell should they?

Most didn't vote for Brexit if permitted to vote at all.

Of course they'll be winners and losers. The sad thing is many less affluent people voted in good faith on the promise of a better future.

It's them who'll lose out at the end of the day at the expense of making the rich even richer.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> This post is a wind up, or is it?
> 
> Really? Why were the people of Gibraltar allowed the vote then? Are you admitting it doesn't matter to you and you believe Expats should all return to the UK to "embrace" the future??? Why the hell should they?
> 
> Most didn't vote for Brexit if permitted to vote at all.
> 
> Of course they'll be winners and losers. The sad thing is many less affluent people voted in good faith on the promise of a better future.
> 
> It's them who'll lose out at the end of the day at the expense of making the rich even richer.


The very, very small population of Gibralta would never be a swaying factor for the UK leaving the EU. May sound harsh but your population in insignificant vote wise.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Can't particularly think of any


Sums most leavers up really.



Dr Pepper said:


> Trouble is remainers can claim unfounded lies were "predictions" . Brexit hasn't happened yet, and won't for a while, so your claims of lies might well turn out to be unfounded.


Already evidence shows the trend. Recently had a leaver post how Toyota is investing in the UK as evidence of how it proves it doesn't matter. Minor fact they ignored the Toyota chairman stating if we don't get free access to the EU they'll have to rethink their position. Not the only indication. Cornwall losing funding which the government is not going to replace. Jobs moving from London. Research already being impacted... Universities already being hit in terms of foreign students applying (local economies affected). The list goes on. This before we even hand in article 50. While the pound is great for exports, we import more than we export. Everybody pays more for basics. So a select few benefit, the majority suffer. The rich will gain, the poor will suffer. That's ignoring the future with Ian Duncan Smith already stating during the leave campaign (something true for a change) "Workers rights will need to be flexible". So you expect workers rights to be "stronger" and protect workers more? 3rd runway at heathrow when already they exceed EU pollution maximums. So the remainer lies about environment already being shown to be accurate.

Maybe you didn't listen to David Davis stating what leaving the EU will mean even whilst trying to put the optimistic. Do you really think the UK has a strong hand at the negotiation table. I know Germans want to export cars. You aren't dealing with Germany and France, you are dealing with the EU including countries with no exports to the UK. They can stop anything which benefits the UK at their expense.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Sums most leavers up really.
> 
> Already evidence shows the trend. Recently had a leaver post how Toyota is investing in the UK as evidence of how it proves it doesn't matter. Minor fact they ignored the Toyota chairman stating if we don't get free access to the EU they'll have to rethink their position. Not the only indication. Cornwall losing funding which the government is not going to replace. Jobs moving from London. Research already being impacted... Universities already being hit in terms of foreign students applying (local economies affected). The list goes on. This before we even hand in article 50. While the pound is great for exports, we import more than we export. Everybody pays more for basics. So a select few benefit, the majority suffer. The rich will gain, the poor will suffer. That's ignoring the future with Ian Duncan Smith already stating during the leave campaign (something true for a change) "Workers rights will need to be flexible". So you expect workers rights to be "stronger" and protect workers more? 3rd runway at heathrow when already they exceed EU pollution maximums. So the remainer lies about environment already being shown to be accurate.
> 
> Maybe you didn't listen to David Davis stating what leaving the EU will mean even whilst trying to put the optimistic. Do you really think the UK has a strong hand at the negotiation table. I know Germans want to export cars. You aren't dealing with Germany and France, you are dealing with the EU including countries with no exports to the UK. They can stop anything which benefits the UK at their expense.


Speculation, speculation, speculation. The remain "facts" so far haven't, generally, come to fruition so your speculation is equally worthless.

Embrace what we have and move on, because that's what's happening like it or not.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> The very, very small population of Gibralta would never be a swaying factor for the UK leaving the EU. May sound harsh but your population in insignificant vote wise.


I was referring to Expats in general, not just in Gibraltar.



Dr Pepper said:


> Embrace what we have and move on, because that's what's happening like it or not.


I'll only embrace the limited time left of my EU citizenship and my rights to freedom of movement thank you.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Speculation, speculation, speculation. The remain "facts" so far haven't, generally, come to fruition so your speculation is equally worthless.
> 
> Embrace what we have and move on, because that's what's happening like it or not.


So another one who can't provide reasons why and simply says.. "we won" despite the existing evidence that things are going to be worse. Not a slam dunk about leaving yet either.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> I was referring to Expats in general, not just in Gibraltar.
> 
> I'll only embrace the limited time left of my EU citizenship and my rights to freedom of movement thank you.


Ahh, freedom of movement was what you voted for. Bit selfish, most people voted for the good of the UK.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So another one who can't provide reasons why and simply says.. "we won" despite the existing evidence that things are going to be worse. Not a slam dunk about leaving yet either.


No, I'm saying that despite all the doom and gloom of the remain campaign, most of which has proved to be unfounded, we now need to see what actually happens.

Let's talk on Thursday about if we are leaving of not!


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> We didn't starve and we where a darn sight healthier than some of todays population.


@Bisbow: Far less obesity then...these days it's many children too who are overweight. Obesity costs the NHS megabucks nowadays which they can ill afford; but I digress.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Ahh, freedom of movement was what you voted for. Bit selfish, most people voted for the good of the UK.


What good of the UK., you cannot come up with anything !



Dr Pepper said:


> we now need to see what actually happens.


Ah that's what you voted for.. wishful thinking.. Grass is always greener.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Freedom of movement in EU is better than deals with 80k work visas, relatives unlimited, other free movement and relaxed visa access for Commonwealth ( only India has 700 mln!!!).

IMO of course.
Commonwealth immigrants will need no health care , education or housing???
It is just disrupting so many lives already established just to bring other people in?

Why ???
Meat from EU to be replaced by meat from Australia and New Zealand???
Obviously those"new deals" will not line the pockets of Brexit bankrollers?

How many " Nissan deals" to keep companies from going?

According to @DrPepper some British are more British than others?

Some are worth " sweetheart deals"...some like expats or Gibraltar are not.

Great is the New Britain so easily disposing of their own heritage and pride.

And he wants me to move there????


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Ahh, freedom of movement was what you voted for. Bit selfish, most people voted for the good of the UK.


That's bulls**t. You have as little idea as to why I support the EU and everything it stands for in the same sense I don't know your true feelings for voting leave.

I can assure you of one thing though. Many leave voters believe their right to free movement will be maintained and will become a shock to them if flights become prohibitively expensive and won't be happy having to make do with Pontins and the likes.

Good of the UK? How's that? They might not be a UK in a few years time.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> @Bisbow: Far less obesity then...these days it's many children too who are overweight. Obesity costs the NHS megabucks nowadays which they can ill afford; but I digress.


A touch of irony here is the US food chains who promote hideous unhealthy food that's contributed to the obesity crisis!

And people want closer ties with them!


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> A touch of irony here is the US food chains who promote hideous unhealthy food that's contributed to the obesity crisis!
> 
> And people want closer ties with them!


Actually in many EU countries people eat much healthier!! Should say: Most of them!!!

Bigger problem fir NHS than health tourism.
Actually EU immigrants are healthier overall than Brits!!!


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> A touch of irony here is the US food chains who promote hideous unhealthy food that's contributed to the obesity crisis!


Plus the fact that people take little or no exercise, go everywhere by car, never walk anywhere, schoolchildren get free travel so jump on a bus for two stops. Plus most households have a mother who works so many buy instant meals instead of making a balanced meal; which has nothing to do with anyone wanting ''closer ties'' with US.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Actually in many EU countries people eat much healthier!!


Which does not affect people who live in this country.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> Which does not affect people who live in this country.


But illnesses brought on by obesity do. Productivity. NHS. Then Leave campaign blames the immigrants from EU.

How many require gastric bypasses?

Am I under impression that it was suggested that leaving EU would make Brits poorer but slimmer?

Impossible to diet in EU?

If we are less healthy than our parents why blame EU or anyone else?

If Swedes, Germans or French or Spanish can eat healthy we can too.
Which would benefit NHS and increases productivity.

Simples.


----------



## Goblin

KittenKong said:


> They might not be a UK in a few years time.


Don't believe that at all. Trouble is it will not be the UK as great as it could be. The average person will lose out whilst the bankers and already rich etc will gain. Popularism at it's best and we can see what is happening in the US for comparison. The dream of "take back control" and "make X country great again" is great for compaigning, doesn't mean it's real.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Could you please provide a link to this source?


It's in the accounts as shared with UK government. It is easy enough to find


----------



## noushka05

The madness of brexit.

Japan wants a FTA with the EU.
Australia & New Zealand want FTAs with the EU.
The whole world wants to trade with the EU!

Except the UK


----------



## noushka05

Yep.


----------



## Bisbow

Why should it
WE voted out so out we should go without all the stupid people trying to cheat on the peoples choice


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dr Pepper said:


> The very, very small population of Gibralta would never be a swaying factor for the UK leaving the EU. May sound harsh but your population in insignificant vote wise.


So we shouldn't worry about what going to happen there, rather selfish aren't you.



Dr Pepper said:


> Ahh, freedom of movement was what you voted for. Bit selfish, *most people voted for the good of the UK.*


If you want whats good for Britain why the hell did you vote to leave.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> If you want whats good for Britain why the hell did you vote to leave.


Because we believe that that is best for the UK long term. 
Certainly not going to be easy in the short term, but we should never have got entangled with the EU in the first place, to get out will mean a few years of struggle and adjustment


----------



## Bisbow

We were never given the choice to vote in or out in the first place
At least Cameron with all his faults gave me a choice, even if it went wrong for him
I didn't want in from the start but was pushed in anyway, now we have a chance to right a wrong


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Because we believe that that is best for the UK long term.
> Certainly not going to be easy in the short term, but we should never have got entangled with the EU in the first place, to get out will mean a few years of struggle and adjustment


Well I'm just glad I won't be around, when it all comes crashing down round UK head.


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> Well I'm just glad I won't be around, when it all comes crashing down round UK head.


Yep, its the young who will be disproportionately affected by this shambles - & they didn't even vote for it.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> How many require gastric bypasses?


I have no idea. But your friend @leashedForLife has ''liked'' your post; I assume therefore that he/she, despite not living in this country, knows and has researched the subject so maybe you should pm him/her and share his/her expertise and knowledge.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Plus the fact that people take little or no exercise, go everywhere by car, never walk anywhere, schoolchildren get free travel so jump on a bus for two stops. Plus most households have a mother who works so many buy instant meals instead of making a balanced meal; which has nothing to do with anyone wanting ''closer ties'' with US.


Bit of a generalisation there, just goes to show how things have changed since the 1950s. Nothing to do with the EU though is it.

You also fail to mention people had to get on their bikes to look for work as the pit down the road is no longer there.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> You also fail to mention people had to get on their bikes to look for work


Bit of excercise must have done them good.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> WE voted out so out we should go without all the stupid people trying to cheat on the peoples choice


You voted in an opinion poll to influence the government not set policy. You voted, where many were not allowed to vote. You voted for wishes. You voted for something where there is no going back and we are still not being given factual information from those in power. You voted to give up methods of holding those in power accountable and celebrating it as giving the "people" control. This while giving even more power to those who have shown to be untrustworthy in the past. Welcome to the great future.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Why should it
> WE voted out so out we should go without all the stupid people trying to cheat on the peoples choice


Wrong. YOU voted out. The 48% didn't.

"Stupid people" for having a different opinion to you?

How wonderfully British.

Charming.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

29th March 2017 is fast approaching.

Hopefully all the scaremongering from the remain side will stop when the FACTS happen as the negotiations start to unravel what Brexit will be like?

Alcohol stocked up to celebrate the triggering of Article 50.

Still out and would still vote out again given the chance again.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Actually in many EU countries people eat much healthier!! Should say: Most of them!!!
> 
> Bigger problem fir NHS than health tourism.
> *Actually EU immigrants are healthier overall than Brits*!!!


https://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/news/top-10-healthiest-countries-in-the-world/

We are 5th healthiest in the world according to a study in the Lancet



cheekyscrip said:


> How many require gastric bypasses?


Oh look, they reckon Sweden have more.........aren't they then in the top for healthier countries? Mmmm



cheekyscrip said:


> If Swedes, Germans or French or Spanish can eat healthy we can too.


http://www.bariatricnews.net/?q=node/1850
"The countries performing the most number of procedures were Belgium, Sweden and France".

Apparently we do

Oh and in Germany there is difficulty getting the surgery, so god only knows how many that figure would be if it was the true figure of those waiting


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> You voted in an opinion poll to influence the government not set policy. You voted, where many were not allowed to vote. You voted for wishes. You voted for something where there is no going back and we are still not being given factual information from those in power. You voted to give up methods of holding those in power accountable and celebrating it as giving the "people" control. This while giving even more power to those who have shown to be untrustworthy in the past. Welcome to the great future.


I voted in a referendum, not an opinion poll
I voted for freedom from faceless wonders telling me how to live my life
I voted for my grandchildren to have a better future

I was not given a choice in the first place, but was told what to do and I am glad there is no going back now
You pessimists may well be in for a surprise later on and unlike happypaws I am sorry I will not be around to see the success this country has become


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> You also fail to mention people had to get on their bikes to look for work as the pit down the road is no longer there.


I thought I could safely leave that for you to mention; so I did.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Wrong. YOU voted out. The 48% didn't.
> 
> "Stupid people" for having a different opinion to you?
> 
> How wonderfully British.
> 
> Charming.....


I have been called stupid for voting out
So it seems only the remainers have the right to call me names


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Nothing to do with the EU though is it.


I didn't say it was, but I am sure that if you trawl for long enough, you will find one word which you can use as proof that I did. You have more time than I have, clearly!!


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> https://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/news/top-10-healthiest-countries-in-the-world/
> 
> We are 5th healthiest in the world according to a study in the Lancet
> 
> Oh look, they reckon Sweden have more.........aren't they then in the top for healthier countries? Mmmm
> 
> http://www.bariatricnews.net/?q=node/1850
> "The countries performing the most number of procedures were Belgium, Sweden and France".
> 
> Apparently we do
> 
> Oh and in Germany there is difficulty getting the surgery, so god only knows how many that figure would be if it was the true figure of those waiting


Mmmm... The only obese people I've seen abroad have been, ahem, British. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist outside the UK and the US of course.

We EU devotees are often accused of putting Britain down. Have you seen how the media often portray its own people as obese and a nation of "binge drinkers"?

If that's not putting its own people down how else would you describe it?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Mmmm... The only obese people I've seen abroad have been, ahem, British. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist outside the UK and the US of course.
> 
> We EU devotees are often accused of putting Britain down. Have you seen how the media often portray its own people as obese and a nation of "binge drinkers"?
> 
> If that's not putting its own people down how else would you describe it?


I can't help the facts............maybe only fat British go to EU other more sensible go elsewhere


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I didn't say it was, but I am sure that if you trawl for long enough, you will find one word which you can use as proof that I did. You have more time than I have, clearly!!


Perhaps you didn't but some here seem to blame the EU for everything!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Re obesity rates

From Public Health England

https://www.noo.org.uk/securefiles/...rnationalComps_Factsheet_2016_v7 NB260916.pdf

Worldwide in 2014, more than 1.9 billion adults (18 years and older) were overweight. Of these, over 600 million were obese, representing 13% of the total adult population
 The UK ranks 8th for overweight prevalence (including obesity) for men and women combined, out of the 34 Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries (Figure 1)
 The UK ranks 8th for overweight prevalence (including obesity) in men (66.6%) and 7th for women (57.2%), out of the 34 OECD countries (Table 1)
 The UK ranks 5th for obesity prevalence among men (24.5%) and 10th for women (25.4%), out of the 34 OECD countries (Table 2)
 The US ranks 1st for obesity prevalence among men (31.7%) and 2nd for women (33.9%), out of the 34 OECD countries. Turkey has the highest prevalence of obesity among women at 34.1% (Table 2)
 Japan has the lowest prevalence of obesity among men (4.5%) and women (3.3%) as well as the lowest prevalence of overweight (including obesity) for both men (28.9%) and women (17.6%) (Table 2)
 Trends over 30 years show that overweight prevalence (including obesity) in England is consistently lower than in the US. However, the rate of increase is higher. Overweight levels in England have increased by 72%: from 36.0% in 1980 to 62.1% in 2013, compared to a 46% increase in the US over the same time period (Figure 2)
 Some caution is needed when comparing obesity prevalence internationally as there can be differences in data collection methods, timing and frequency of surveys

The top 10 countries are Mexico, Iceland, USA, Chile, New Zealand, Turkey, Australia, UK, Greece, Hungary.


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> Yep, its the young who will be disproportionately affected by this shambles - & they didn't even vote for it.


Actually it's the young who will be disproportionately advantaged. I'm a tad envious actually whilst at the same time pleased for the future my kids will enjoy, who, both being in their early twenties, also voted leave (as, apparently, their friends did also), so don't be so sure the younger generation would have voted the way you think.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> I voted in a referendum, not an opinion poll


Referendums, apart from one where parliament said otherwise (not this one) are opinion polls. Nothing more.



> I voted for freedom from faceless wonders telling me how to live my life


Ah you are restricted by democratic decisions in a very limited number of instances which includes things like protecting your rights, protecting the environment and little things like that whilst the majority of decisions are still left to the UK government. So tell me how does the EU tell you to live your life. Can you even answer without trying to find something on google?



> I voted for my grandchildren to have a better future


Based on what!!!

The more I listen the more I see similarities between Trump voters and those who voted to leave the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> The more I listen the more I see similarities between Trump voters and those who voted to leave the EU.


Spot on!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Goblin said:


> Referendums, apart from one where parliament said otherwise (not this one) are opinion polls. Nothing more.
> 
> Ah you are restricted by democratic decisions in a very limited number of instances which includes things like protecting your rights, protecting the environment and little things like that whilst the majority of decisions are still left to the UK government. So tell me how does the EU tell you to live your life. Can you even answer without trying to find something on google?
> 
> Based on what!!!
> 
> The more I listen the more I see similarities between *Trump voters and those who voted to leave the EU*.


I see normal service is resumed. Mud slinging and insults :Spitoutdummy


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> The more I listen the more I see similarities between Trump voters and those who voted to leave the EU.


My grandchildren voted out because they want more freedom pf choice , they looked into it and chose out as did some of their friends
Only to be called racists, Nazis and many unsavoury names by you remainers and I don't think they would be pleased by the Trump remark

Why are you remainers so insulting to us outers, are you frustrated because nothing you say will change our minds you need to try to make us feel small
Hard luck, all your out poring is only making me even more sure I voted the right way


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I see normal service is resumed. Mud slinging and insults :Spitoutdummy


??? Some Brexiteers here are proud of their support for Donald Trump and are very open about it.

How is that insulting?


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> ??? Some Brexiteers here are proud of their support for Donald Trump and are very open about it.
> 
> How is that insulting?


I am not and I find it insulting to suggest I do


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> proud of their support for Donald Trump


I have a few American friends who supposedly voted for him as they could not stomach the idea of another Clinton in the White House. Had the Democrats had a different candidate it might well have been a different outcome. Who knows?


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> Why are you remainers so insulting to us outers


@Bisbow: The expression ''sad losers'' comes to mind.


----------



## Zaros

Calvine said:


> I have a few American friends who supposedly voted for him as they could not stomach the idea of another Clinton in the White House.


Not that I'm fond of America, but here's the reasons why Mr Donald Trump walked to victory,

_'Every beaten down, nameless, forgotten working stiff who used to be part of what they call the middle class, loves Trump. He is the human Molotov cocktail that they had been waiting for. The human hand grenade that they could legally throw into the system that stole their lives from them.' _Michael Moore.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> @Bisbow: The expression ''sad losers'' comes to mind.


Well, don't say you haven't been warned.

I don't think many realise it yet, but there's going to be a lot of, "Sad winners" out there once they learn what Brexit really means.









above from Open Britain.








Above from The Guardian comments section.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> ??? Some Brexiteers here are proud of their support for Donald Trump and are very open about it.
> 
> How is that insulting?


Do you like it when people generalise about why you hold opinions that you do?  Do you like it when people make assumptions about you? Do you like it when people compare you to someone else? Would you like it if I compared you to communists? I've said it before - millions of people voted to leave just like millions voted to remain (just a bit less of them ) and we all did so for different reasons. It is insulting to suggest we are not capable of making up our own minds without being either led by the media or led by a leader of another country (Obama getting involved in the campaign was a big mistake in my opinion) or all have the same mind set.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Well, don't say you haven't been warned.
> 
> I don't think many realise it yet, but there's going to be a lot of, "Sad winners" out there once they learn what Brexit really means.
> {QUOTE}
> 
> No there won't, it is the "sad losers" who will find they are so very wrong
> 
> So you claim to know what Brexit really means, very clever of you as know one knows yet
> 
> Unless you have retuned from about 30 years hence


----------



## Happy Paws2

I don't think so.


----------



## Bisbow

Sorry about that hit the wrong button
Just wanted to know if @KittenKong has returned from 30 years hence and knows for sure what will be happening


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Do you like it when people generalise about why you hold opinions that you do? Do you like it when people make assumptions about you? Do you like it when people compare you to someone else? Would you like it if I compared you to communists? I've said it before - millions of people voted to leave just like millions voted to remain (just a bit less of them ) and we all did so for different reasons. It is insulting to suggest we are not capable of making up our own minds without being either led by the media or led by a leader of another country (Obama getting involved in the campaign was a big mistake in my opinion) or all have the same mind set.


If someone called me a communist I would laugh out loud quite frankly! Ironically the far left are as pro Brexit as the far right are which is something they certainly have in common.

Whether left or right I'll never affiliate myself with a pro Brexit cause.

As for Obama, yes many Brexiteers were irritated by his pro remain contribution yet I heard little criticism, if any about Trump expressing his pro Brexit views and inviting Farage to his gatherings.

It was neither Obama, nor Trump's business.


----------



## DoodlesRule

noushka05 said:


> Yep.
> 
> View attachment 304212


You trust the slime ball Alistair Campbell? I didn't think he could get much worse until I saw the photos of him at the funeral of Martin McGuinness


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I don't think many realise it yet, but there's going to be a lot of, "Sad winners" out there once they learn what Brexit really means.


Wow; it's being so cheerful that gets you out of bed in the mornings I bet!


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> I am not and I find it insulting to suggest I do


Even if you were it would be no-one else's business as far as I am aware.


----------



## Calvine

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Do you like it when people generalise about why you hold opinions that you do? Do you like it when people make assumptions about you? Do you like it when people compare you to someone else? Would you like it if I compared you to communists? I've said it before - millions of people voted to leave just like millions voted to remain (just a bit less of them ) and we all did so for different reasons. It is insulting to suggest we are not capable of making up our own minds without being either led by the media or led by a leader of another country (Obama getting involved in the campaign was a big mistake in my opinion) or all have the same mind set.


Agree, totally; but I rather fear you are banging your head against a brick wall. There are many on here with tunnel vision.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> If someone called me a communist I would laugh out loud quite frankly! Ironically the far left are as pro Brexit as the far right are which is something they certainly have in common.
> 
> Whether left or right I'll never affiliate myself with a pro Brexit cause.
> 
> As for Obama, yes many Brexiteers were irritated by his pro remain contribution yet I heard little criticism, if any about Trump expressing his pro Brexit views and inviting Farage to his gatherings.
> 
> It was neither Obama, nor Trump's business.


Quite so if you don't mind I will continue to laugh out loud and find it insulting to be told I am just like a Trump supporter. At the time of the referendum Trump's views were not that relevant given he was not president of the US at the time whereas Obama was. I couldn't even tell you what Trump thought or said about Brexit as guess what I'm not interested anymore than I'm interested in what the Sun have to say.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Well, don't say you haven't been warned.
> 
> I don't think many realise it yet, but there's going to be a lot of, "Sad winners" out there once they learn what Brexit really means.
> 
> View attachment 304251
> 
> above from Open Britain.
> View attachment 304252
> 
> Above from The Guardian comments section.


Oh my sides are hurting, I can't stop laughing at that snobbery and condescending crap

EXPURTS IS WRONG (!!!!11!!!)

So we all read the Sun, we all love Nazis, we are all the same as Trump supporters and now we can't spell or string a sentence together either. Still that rag has always been so far up its own arse they can tickle their tonsils.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Quite so if you don't mind I will continue to laugh out loud and find it insulting to be told I am just like a Trump supporter. At the time of the referendum Trump's views were not that relevant given he was not president of the US at the time whereas Obama was. I couldn't even tell you what Trump thought or said about Brexit as guess what I'm not interested anymore than I'm interested in what the Sun have to say.


I'm glad you find it funny. All too pleased for people to have a laugh, even at my expense.

As they say, laughter is the best medicine!

I did point out the far left are equally as enthusiastic of Brexit as the far right are.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Oh my sides are hurting, I can't stop laughing at that snobbery and condescending crap
> 
> EXPURTS IS WRONG (!!!!11!!!)
> 
> So we all read the Sun, we all love Nazis, we are all the same as Trump supporters and now we can't spell or string a sentence together either. Still that rag has always been so far up its own arse they can tickle their tonsils.


Sometimes I envy the naive who think this way.

Sing along to the latest X Factor "discovery" auto tuned pap while eating a bowl of Frosties as Tony the tiger told me they were great as I await delivery of my daily No.1 Sun who tell me Brexit will save lives because it says so.....


----------



## Bisbow

Oh dear, are we at last running out of anti brexit propaganda material and have to rely on sarcasm

I wonder how low you will sink to try to change minds


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Sometimes I envy the naive who think this way.
> 
> Sing along to the latest X Factor "discovery" auto tuned pap while eating a bowl of Frosties as Tony the tiger told me they were great as I await delivery of my daily No.1 Sun who tell me Brexit will save lives because it says so.....


:Hilarious:Hilarious Who are you calling naive? Is anyone who thinks the Guardian is a pile of trash classed as naive in your world? As it happens I neither watch the X-Factor nor eat Frosties and I have no idea who Tony the Tiger is - is it your friend Mr Blair? The only person I know of who reads the Sun and constantly quotes them is , well let me think about that one - oh yes, I remember - its YOU.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious Who are you calling naive? Is anyone who thinks the Guardian is a pile of trash classed as naive in your world? As it happens I neither watch the X-Factor nor eat Frosties and I have no idea who Tony the Tiger is - is it your friend Mr Blair? The only person I know of who reads the Sun and constantly quotes them is , well let me think about that one - oh yes, I remember - its YOU.


Tony the Tiger was/is the face of Frosties. Remember his, "They're GRREAT" catchphrase? Voiced by Hughie Green I believe.

The post in question wasn't getting at you or anyone else here personally. After all, out of all the Brexiteers here you are the one I respect the most actually.

I have no shame in my support for Tony Blair which I'm happy to express on a public forum, even if I do share the anti Iraq war views from others. I blame Bush primarily yet accept Blair's enthusiasm for backing the US played a part in it. What makes anyone think a Tory PM would have acted any differently at the time, knowing the tradition of how the UK bend over backwards to please the US. May has certainly kept up that tradition.

Don't forget, she coldly said she would press that button......

Hmmm.... I forgot to mention treating the kids to a bucket of US vile fattening food for tea. It's, "Finger lickin' good" you see, according to the ads......


----------



## Dr Pepper

Bisbow said:


> Oh dear, are we at last running out of anti brexit propaganda material and have to rely on sarcasm
> 
> I wonder how low you will sink to try to change minds


The problem is obvious, a few remainers are feeling awfully stupid and betrayed because they fell hook, line and sinker for the remain scare campaign. Now that the emergency budget (that was essential for the good of the country) didn't happen, the stock market hasn't crashed, the pound has fallen through the floor and interest rates haven't risen to the late 1980's rate (shame really, could do with a rise), they have to cling on to what, they've been told, might still happen, because feck all of what influenced their vote has come to diddly squat. All the ongoing scare stories are full of "may", "could" and "might", never "will". The only "will" that's a certainty is we will leave the EU

I've got friends that voted remain, the majority of whom are quite happy with the way things are turning out (to be fair most have just put it behind them and are getting on with life). None at any point got all angry and childish about it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious Who are you calling naive? Is anyone who thinks the Guardian is a pile of trash classed as naive in your world? As it happens I neither watch the X-Factor nor eat Frosties and I have no idea who Tony the Tiger is - is it your friend Mr Blair? The only person I know of who reads the Sun and constantly quotes them is , well let me think about that one - oh yes, I remember - its YOU.












Sorry your post had me in stitches laughing.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> The problem is obvious, a few remainers are feeling awfully stupid and betrayed because they fell hook, line and sinker for the remain scare campaign. Now that the emergency budget (that was essential for the good of the country) didn't happen, the stock market hasn't crashed, the pound has fallen through the floor and interest rates haven't risen to the late 1980's rate (shame really, could do with a rise), they have to cling on to what, they've been told, might still happen, because feck all of what influenced their vote has come to diddly squat.
> 
> I've got friends that voted remain, the majority of whom are quite happy with the way things are turning out (to be fair most have just put it behind them and are getting on with life). None at any point got all geared and childish about it.


Conversely I know a couple of Leave voters who recognise the narrow victory and would like to see a compromise for the sake of uniting the country.

As I mentioned earlier not many would have supported a "hard remain" in the event of the referendum vote being reversed.

So why do many Brexiteers believe the opposite with the proposed hard Brexit?

A dramatic increase on interest rates will only result in more house reprocessions. Why do you wish that on people?

As a passionate supporter of what the EU stands for I have no shame in supporting that. I'm proud to support that in fact.

If only past and present, Tony Blair included, PMs recognised this rather than bending over backwards to please US administrations the world would be a much better place.


----------



## Goblin

Comes down to the simple thing @rottiehouse. People can only supply "wishes" and fundamental falsehoods for the reasons for voting leave. The campaign to leave was based on falsehoods, pushing xenophobia and nationalism. 80% of economists have stated the UK will be worse off. People claim they want to take back control when they have not. The UK government had control apart from a few instances. They've handed even more unrestrained power in those who have proven not worthy of it as far as the "average" person goes.

People love saying "just you wait" but cannot provide any explanation of why the UK will be better off other than "we'll be out of the EU".

Maybe you can explain how leaving benefits the life of the average person. At the moment it's doing the opposite. You prefer instead to is complain about how names are thrown about. Why is it that the comment Trump and Leave supporters are similar isn't correct. Justify your "offence" rather than simply complain about it. Show it's not valid with why it's not valid.

Why is it that even Trump says "taking the country back" is the same:

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...mp-s-coalition-looks-a-lot-like-brexit-voters

Plenty of other media demonstrating similarities.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Conversely I know a couple of Leave voters who recognise the narrow victory and would like to see a compromise for the sake of uniting the country.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier not many would have supported a "hard remain" in the event of the referendum vote being reversed.
> 
> So why do many Brexiteers believe the opposite with the proposed hard Brexit?
> 
> A dramatic increase on interest rates will only result in more house reprocessions. Why do you wish that on people?
> 
> As a passionate supporter of what the EU stands for I have no shame in supporting that. I'm proud to support that in fact.
> 
> If only past and present, Tony Blair included, PMs recognised this rather than bending over backwards to please US administrations the world would be a much better place.


I think you'll find most leavers expected nothing less than the now so called "hard" Brexit. Why? Simply because voting for the middle ground wasn't a option so obviously not expected or considered.

I don't want a drastic rise in interest rates, just a bit if adjustment so people who rely on their savings can actually earn a tad of interest.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> I think you'll find most leavers expected nothing less than the now so called "hard" Brexit.


No, even in this thread it shows they didn't. Only since May pushed it as the only option has it become "everyone expected". Look elsewhere at the arguments of "Germany needs to sell their cars", EU needs us more. They are still going on.


----------



## Bisbow

I don't want to keep all the muslims out of the country, they are not all bad
Just the murderers, rapists and criminals no matter where they come from
I don't want to build a wall to keep out the Scots or the welsh or Irish

Will that do for starters to prove I am not a Trump supporter


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> No, even in this thread it shows they didn't. Only since May pushed it as the only option has it become "everyone expected". Look elsewhere at the arguments of "Germany needs to sell their cars", EU needs us more. They are still going on.


I don't buy it, the options were simple "stay in EU" or "leave the EU", there wasn't a "leave the EU just a little bit". And that's what people considered and voted on.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> I don't want to keep all the muslims out of the country, they are not all bad


Thank you for demonstrating you are not racist. It's about religion for you. Love to know how fueling separation and hate assists in lessening home grown terrorist recruitment. How does "taking back control" help?

Brexit had nothing to do with religion and muslims.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> I don't buy it, the options were simple "stay in EU" or "leave the EU", there wasn't a "leave the EU just a little bit". And that's what people considered and voted on.


Yet that was what leave said, the norway option, the swiss option etc etc etc. We could have our cake and eat it. Then again you still don't know what you voted for do you until negotiations are completed. You will not have a say when you do actually know either.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> After all, out of all the Brexiteers here you are the one I respect the most actually.


Wow, @rottiepointerhouse: blessed art thou amongst women! A bit patronising tho' don't you think?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Sing along to the latest X Factor "discovery" auto tuned pap while eating a bowl of Frosties as Tony the tiger told me they were great as I await delivery of my daily No.1 Sun who tell me Brexit will save lives because it says so.....


Sing along to bo**ocks...I have no TV, hence no X-Factor, and don't eat Frosties or any other breakfast crap. And the only person who seems to know what's in the Sun is you. I suspect you read it avidly.Why don't you and Goblin change your names to ''The Chuckle Brothers'' and have done with it.


----------



## Bisbow

What the hell has religion got to do with it, it was Trump who raised the problem about muslims mot mr

I could not care less what people believe, it's their business not mine

You really are clutching at straws to get at me now, aren't you

I said I DON'T want to keep them out of the country. not I do, did you not read it properlyu6u


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps you didn't but some here seem to blame the EU for everything!


Maybe that's because many on here blame Brexit for everything...just a thought!


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> What the hell has religion got to do with it


You mentioned it separating them out. Didn't you know.. trump's travel ban has nothing to do with religion either.

Still waiting for what you did vote for.


----------



## Guest

This thread has become wholly unproductive with nothing but animosity being exchanged. 

If I may offer a perspective from the future - let me explain:
I was horrified that so many of my fellow Americans chose to elect Trump. I understood that their reasons for voting the way they did were varied, but I was immensely disappointed that they could overlook the man's character and lack of decency to forward their own personal interests. That made/makes me sad. 

Nine weeks in to his presidency, and it is every bit the clusterfluck predicted, and guess what? The arguments leading up to the election are all moot. We're all f*cked. No, really. My FB has gone eerily quiet. No one gloating "I told you so", no one adamantly still defending Trump. 

All the arguments achieved were to create rifts that now add to the general distrust. I don't know what's going to happen, but I do know the path we were on with arguing to be "right" instead of trying to understand where someone is coming from when they have a different perspective than ours, did not serve us and does not serve us.


----------



## Goblin

Major difference between Brexit and Trump ouesi.. You can reverse Trump at the next election (if he isn't kicked out earlier).



ouesi said:


> instead of trying to understand where someone is coming from when they have a different perspective than ours


Good luck with that, I keep asking for reasons why.


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> You mentioned it separating them out. Didn't you know.. trump's travel ban has nothing to do with religion either.
> 
> Still waiting for what you did vote for.


I said nothing about separating anyone from anything, learn to read and digest instead of putting you own slant on it, stop nitpicking

You know why I voted out. I am not going through it again
Stop trying to stir up trouble
If you are typical of remainers is it not surprising so many want to leave


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Yet that was what leave said, the norway option, the swiss option etc etc etc. We could have our cake and eat it. Then again you still don't know what you voted for do you until negotiations are completed. You will not have a say when you do actually know either.


I know exactly what I, and everyone else who voted leave, voted for. Leaving the EU lock, stock and barrel as per the voting form.

Now if we get a few concessions all the better, if we pay for access to the common market all well and good. If we get nothing that's fine as well because that was the deal. If we don't lose freedom of movement, which was a big issue, I'll get on with life rather than moan and gripe on a forum somewhere. So yes, I know exactly what I voted for. Now I'll wait and see what we actually get - just like every general election.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> I have been called stupid for voting out
> So it seems only the remainers have the right to call me names


I wouldn't call anyone stupid for voting out. We were ill informed & deliberately misinformed, so how could people be expected to make an informed decision on such a complex issue with so little accurate information?

What I do think is stupid is some people _don't want_ a proper debate & then a second referendum despite knowing with absolute certainty the entire leave campaign was built on a pack of lies underpinned by xenophobia. We need to have the pros & cons spelled out to us so we can choose wisely. I think people who choose to gamble everything rather than have a clearer insight before choosing are extremely foolish. In a true democracy we would have the option to change our minds.



Dr Pepper said:


> Actually it's the young who will be disproportionately advantaged. I'm a tad envious actually whilst at the same time pleased for the future my kids will enjoy, who, both being in their early twenties, also voted leave (as, apparently, their friends did also), so don't be so sure the younger generation would have voted the way you think.


The evidence already suggests they didn't vote out. My children are both in their 20s - they voted remain. They both made friends from other countries at uni, my youngest now works with a Swedish girl & a Slovak girl. Both of them worried about their futures now. My children embrace our multicultural society - I'm incredibly proud of them for that. They love the opportunities being part of the EU gives them.



DoodlesRule said:


> You trust the slime ball Alistair Campbell? I didn't think he could get much worse until I saw the photos of him at the funeral of Martin McGuinness


I certainly do not lol. Though I trust him a damn sight more than I trust this dreadful government.


----------



## Guest

Goblin said:


> Major difference between Brexit and Trump ouesi.. You can reverse Trump at the next election (if he isn't kicked out earlier).


Yes that is true, however, he can do a lot of permanent damage in the meantime. He already has. Like the Dakota access pipeline, or the cuts to important programs like the EPA...


----------



## Zaros

The New World Order...First Brexit, then Trump....more (Dis)order really and not exactly what G.H.W. Bush had envisaged.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> I don't buy it, the options were simple "stay in EU" or "leave the EU", there wasn't a "leave the EU just a little bit". And that's what people considered and voted on.


They were options proven to work, such as Norway and Switzerland. May chooses the anti immigrant Farage version.



Calvine said:


> Wow, @rottiepointerhouse: blessed art thou amongst women! A bit patronising tho' don't you think?


I don't consider declaring respect for someone with opposing views patronising.

If a Brexiteer said that about me I would take that as a compliment.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> The sad thing is many less affluent people voted in good faith on the promise of a better future.


So Brexit was voted in by the poor and needy? Are you sure?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I don't consider declaring respect for someone with opposing views patronising.


Well, I do, since you say it as tho' she happened to be the best of a really crap bunch. So where there are varying degrees of awfulness, it is some consolation not to be the worst?


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am just catching up with this thread.
Four points I would like to make, then I will be quiet again:

1) The points the remainers keep making are getting ridiculously desperate or have already been discussed already over and over it becomes silly to keep regurgitating the same arguements again.
2) People voted the way they voted because in the UK we have something called free will and people exercised this on referendum day. You will either have to accept this or not, and believe it or not the majority of other remainers have accepted this.
3) I know the remainers favourite ex PM who lied to the British public over Iraq and lead is into war in Iraq has told you to change those that voted leave's minds. Do you want me to tell you something, you won't change people's minds, it's happened get over it.
4) No one knows what Brexit is going to look like until an agreement has been made after the negotiations. No so called expert can tell you (I will tell you a secret the so called experts are wrong the majority of the time so forgive me for not trusting in them as adamantly as you remainers do) and no person in authority can. All the reports so far in newspapers are guess work and nothing else. A so-called expert does not have a time machine or can tell the future and let's be honest so far they have been completely wrong over the vote to leave.

I know the remainers won't like what I said but you will never agree with me on this topic and I won't with you either. At least we know that.

Right I am done. Back behind the sofa I hide.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Tony the Tiger was/is the face of Frosties. Remember his, "They're GRREAT" catchphrase? Voiced by Hughie Green I believe.
> 
> The post in question wasn't getting at you or anyone else here personally. After all, out of all the Brexiteers here you are the one I respect the most actually.
> 
> I have no shame in my support for Tony Blair which I'm happy to express on a public forum, even if I do share the anti Iraq war views from others. I blame Bush primarily yet accept Blair's enthusiasm for backing the US played a part in it. What makes anyone think a Tory PM would have acted any differently at the time, knowing the tradition of how the UK bend over backwards to please the US. May has certainly kept up that tradition.
> 
> Don't forget, she coldly said she would press that button......
> 
> Hmmm.... I forgot to mention treating the kids to a bucket of US vile fattening food for tea. It's, "Finger lickin' good" you see, according to the ads......


Why thank you for the compliment  not sure that will be a popular one with your fellow remain voters but I'll take it nonetheless. No I don't remember Tony the Tiger although I am old enough to remember Hughie Green. I'm afraid I am an advertisers worse nightmare as I never watch them. I don't see how you can be PM and not be prepared to press that button if the need arises.



Goblin said:


> Comes down to the simple thing @rottiehouse. People can only supply "wishes" and fundamental falsehoods for the reasons for voting leave. The campaign to leave was based on falsehoods, pushing xenophobia and nationalism. 80% of economists have stated the UK will be worse off. People claim they want to take back control when they have not. The UK government had control apart from a few instances. They've handed even more unrestrained power in those who have proven not worthy of it as far as the "average" person goes.
> 
> People love saying "just you wait" but cannot provide any explanation of why the UK will be better off other than "we'll be out of the EU".
> 
> Maybe you can explain how leaving benefits the life of the average person. At the moment it's doing the opposite. You prefer instead to is complain about how names are thrown about. Why is it that the comment Trump and Leave supporters are similar isn't correct. Justify your "offence" rather than simply complain about it. Show it's not valid with why it's not valid.
> 
> Why is it that even Trump says "taking the country back" is the same:
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...mp-s-coalition-looks-a-lot-like-brexit-voters
> 
> Plenty of other media demonstrating similarities.


its @rottiepointerhouse actually, my pointers will be most offended to be left out  Look why I voted to leave and why others voted to remain has been hashed to death on this thread - hundreds of pages back. Maybe you can explain how Brexit is having such an adverse effect on the life of the average person here in the UK because I don't see any evidence of it in my business life nor my personal life. So far none of the threats the remain camp made about what would befall us if we voted leave have happened. Its business as usual, life as usual.

You seem to like demanding that people answer your questions and explain themselves to you. So I will ask you the questions for a change - how is this constant hashing over old ground helping? how is it a positive thing? how will it help the country to move forward and how will it help our PM and her team to negotiate a good deal for us? Do you even want a good deal for us? If not, why not? What do you think the average person will gain from remain voters obstructing and pontificating?



Calvine said:


> Wow, @rottiepointerhouse: blessed art thou amongst women! A bit patronising tho' don't you think?


Not really, I didn't find it patronising. I find people telling me why I voted leave and who influenced me to do so far more patronising.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> 1) The points the remainers keep making are getting ridiculously desperate or have already been discussed already over and over it becomes silly to keep regurgitating the same arguements again.


The points which show based on evidence the UK will not gain anything or the points where the leave campaign is nothing but wishful thinking? Or the fact they are unable to come up with evidence that the UK will gain anything even with their wishful thinking? Or the fact that they constantly change what the benefits are and the best course according to the latest spin?



> 2) People voted the way they voted because in the UK we have something called free will and people exercised this on referendum day. You will either have to accept this or not, and believe it or not the majority of other remainers have accepted this.


Ah the democracy argument whilst democracy is denied for others. Warped argument there. Then again those who vote should accept the responsibility to actually vote not simply because they can but to make a positive difference.



> 4) No one knows what Brexit is going to look like until an agreement has been made after the negotiations.


May just recently stated that without knowing what the end result it was unfair for people to vote without knowing the end result. Talk about hypocritical. No matter what the result of the negotiations, it will not be as good as staying in would be. Nobody seems to provide anything which points otherwise.

So once again, what do you have to show the UK will be better off?


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> @rottiepointerhousehow is this constant hashing over old ground helping? how is it a positive thing? how will it help the country to move forward and how will it help our PM and her team to negotiate a good deal for us?


Leaving will not be a foregone conclusion for a couple of years. Handing in article 50 is not the point of no return. There is no deal going to be better for the UK than we had before in the EU. If you think there is, again, show why.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> The points which show based on evidence the UK will not gain anything or the points where the leave campaign is nothing but wishful thinking? Or the fact they are unable to come up with evidence that the UK will gain anything even with their wishful thinking? Or the fact that they constantly change what the benefits are and the best course according to the latest spin?
> 
> Ah the democracy argument whilst democracy is denied for others. Warped argument there. Then again those who vote should accept the responsibility to actually vote not simply because they can but to make a positive difference.
> 
> May just recently stated that without knowing what the end result it was unfair for people to vote without knowing the end result. Talk about hypocritical. No matter what the result of the negotiations, it will not be as good as staying in would be. Nobody seems to provide anything which points otherwise.
> 
> So once again, what do you have to show the UK will be better off?


The only wishful thinking here is that remainers hope that article 50 will be revoked. There's no turning back once it is invoked on the 29th March 2017.

The facts you pointed out so far have not stood. The bank of England even backed down as well with there predictions not facts as the IMF and others did as well. It's ok you are welcome to belief the so called experts who HAVE BEEN WRONG thus far.

Time will tell. Sorry you don't like hearing that but it's the truth. Time will tell.

Before you say a future Government can overturn or reapply to join the EU, what future Government, there is no opposition at the moment to the current Government.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The only wishful thinking here is that remainers hope that article 50 will be revoked. There's no turning back once it is invoked on the 29th March 2017.


Legally, it is not determined if it is the be all and end all. Then again legally isn't something which normally bothers you.



> The facts you pointed out so far have not stood. The bank of England even backed down as well with there predictions not facts as the IMF and others did as well. It's ok you are welcome to belief the so called experts who HAVE BEEN WRONG thus far.


You've been shown evidence, not predictions that many of the "project fear" predictions are coming true. As normal though rather than face it for what it is, scapegoats and excuses are used.



> Before you say a future Government can overturn or reapply to join the EU, what future Government, there is no opposition at the moment to the current Government.


Even if it was possible, we would lose out on all the advantages we have gained, having to take on the euro, losing veto powers etc. Why not campaign for an actual chance to step back from the precipice once the full terms of leaving are known? Why are leavers including May so scared to allow the opportunity to prove her "mandate"?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Legally, it is not determined if it is the be all and end all. Then again legally isn't something which normally bothers you.
> 
> You've been shown evidence, not predictions that many of the "project fear" predictions are coming true. As normal though rather than face it for what it is, scapegoats and excuses are used.
> 
> Even if it was possible, we would lose out on all the advantages we have gained, having to take on the euro, losing veto powers etc. Why not campaign for an actual chance to step back from the precipice once the full terms of leaving are known? Why are leavers including May so scared to allow the opportunity to prove her "mandate"?


You have project fear wrong @Goblin. Project fear was Cameron and Osborne's doom mongering during the Referendum campaigning. Google it and you will see.

The Government has no intention of overturning the triggering of article 50. Who is going to stand up to them? Corbyn is a laughing stock. Tim Farron only has 9 MP's and is laughed at. SNP are losing support in Scotland (Scots believe Theresa May is doing a better job than Sturgeon and the SNP).

No more Referendum's. One was enough. The leave voters won and you'll have to get used to that fact.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Well, I do, since you say it as tho' she happened to be the best of a really crap bunch. So where there are varying degrees of awfulness, it is some consolation not to be the worst?


Sorry you see it that way Calvine. I don't regard anyone who disagrees with me as "crap", or that anyone is the best of a "crap bunch" for the same reason.

If any of my posts have come over this way I apologise.

At the end of the day this is Pet Forums. We love our pets which is something we all have in common.


----------



## KittenKong

See you in Edinburgh tomorrow!

I'll leave you with this.

Goodnight


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> See you in Edinburgh tomorrow!
> 
> I'll leave you with this.
> 
> Goodnight
> View attachment 304306


Just something to point out.

You are marching for Europe, the UK isn't leaving Europe. The UK is leaving the EU which is a political and economic union. Dragging Europe into this isn't fair as the UK will still be in Europe we will still be European after Brexit.

Only 20,744 expected in London for there gathering the majority of whom probably don't live in the UK. Still not 17.4+ million. And no I am not worried. Roll on 29th March 2017.

Enjoy your gathering.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> https://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/news/top-10-healthiest-countries-in-the-world/
> 
> We are 5th healthiest in the world according to a study in the Lancet
> 
> Oh look, they reckon Sweden have more.........aren't they then in the top for healthier countries? Mmmm
> 
> http://www.bariatricnews.net/?q=node/1850
> "The countries performing the most number of procedures were Belgium, Sweden and France".
> 
> Apparently we do
> 
> Oh and in Germany there is difficulty getting the surgery, so god only knows how many that figure would be if it was the true figure of those waiting


I meant obesity which is very high in UK, and how can EU be blamed?
But it definitely puts strain on NHS and social care.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat said:


> Just something to point out.
> 
> You are marching for Europe, the UK isn't leaving Europe. The UK is leaving the EU which is a political and economic union. Dragging Europe into this isn't fair as the UK will still be in Europe we will still be European after Brexit.
> 
> Only 20,744 expected in London for there gathering the majority of whom probably don't live in the UK. Still not 17.4+ million. And no I am not worried. Roll on 29th March 2017.
> 
> Enjoy your gathering.


Exactly, they need 17,000,000 plus people attending not a pathetic 20,000 and no doubt bloody hypocritical Bob Geldof, again.....

We can't ever leave Europe because it would make a hole in the channel tunnel, so we would be flooded with water and sink......


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> I keep asking for reasons why.


Well you keep demanding and various people keep answering. Yet you continue to repeat the same questions and repeat the same thoroughly debunked arguments. Honestly, I can't decide if your are genuinely impervious to logic or if you are just a wind up merchant or even a chatbot with a stuck subroutine?


----------



## Goblin

While people like stockwellcat are rejoicing at destroying the country we have the UKIP:

https://www.farminguk.com/News/Acce...t-Brexit-says-UKIP-s-Mark-Reckless_45993.html

But we are having a hard brexit which means we cannot, in the EU words "have our cake and eat it"... We know from Cornwall how likely the "UK Government should commit to spending present levels of funding on agriculture in Wales". This from a member of the UKIP.


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> Well you keep demanding and various people keep answering.


Provide examples then. "we are leaving", "I felt like it", "I hate the EU" and "we won a referendum" are the only answers which haven't been debunked by reality.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> While people like stockwellcat are rejoicing at destroying the country we have the UKIP:
> 
> https://www.farminguk.com/News/Acce...t-Brexit-says-UKIP-s-Mark-Reckless_45993.html
> 
> But we are having a hard brexit which means we cannot, in the EU words "have our cake and eat it"... We know from Cornwall how likely the "UK Government should commit to spending present levels of funding on agriculture in Wales". This from a member of the UKIP.


Well you define Brexit without saying staying in the EU? The majority voted to leave the EU, leave means leave.

*I had a right to vote on Referendum day, I exercised my right and voted the way I said I was always going to vote in the event of a referendum to get the UK out of the EU.
*
Not long now. Wednesday 29th March 2017 is fast approaching. Article 50 day.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Just something to point out.
> 
> You are marching for Europe, the UK isn't leaving Europe. The UK is leaving the EU which is a political and economic union. Dragging Europe into this isn't fair as the UK will still be in Europe we will still be European after Brexit.
> 
> Only 20,744 expected in London for there gathering the majority of whom probably don't live in the UK.


 The UK IS leaving Europe, end of. Not geographically of course.

Explain to us how Faragemay's Hard Brexit maintains a connection with the rest of Europe?

Yes, why didn't I think of the WTO!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The UK IS leaving Europe, end of. Not geographically of course.
> 
> Explain to us how Faragemay's Hard Brexit maintains a connection with the rest of Europe?
> 
> Yes, why didn't I think of the WTO!


Enjoy your gathering.

Won't achieve anything except disruption for people going about there daily business.

The one London goes through four major tourist spots (how annoying for the tourists) before stopping outside Parliament. Just to let you know Parliament doesn't sit on Saturday so there's no PM or MP's in the building.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> See you in Edinburgh tomorrow!
> 
> I'll leave you with this.
> 
> Goodnight
> View attachment 304306


Hope the weather is as lovely as its looking here this morning. Have a great day @KittenKong & thank you from a fellow remoaner  x

Details of the London march.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Exactly, they need 17,000,000 plus people attending not a pathetic 20,000 and no doubt bloody hypocritical Bob Geldof, again.....
> 
> We can't ever leave Europe because it would make a hole in the channel tunnel, so we would be flooded with water and sink......


Who said anything about Bob Geldof being involved?

Still, at least you recognise the UK is leaving Europe except geographically.....


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> While people like stockwellcat are rejoicing at destroying the country we have the UKIP:
> 
> https://www.farminguk.com/News/Acce...t-Brexit-says-UKIP-s-Mark-Reckless_45993.html
> 
> But we are having a hard brexit which means we cannot, in the EU words "have our cake and eat it"... We know from Cornwall how likely the "UK Government should commit to spending present levels of funding on agriculture in Wales". This from a member of the UKIP.


'It is 'critical' for Welsh farmers to have access to the single market says ---- UKIP. (they also support continued immigration & EU funding ... )

This is beyond parody now


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> So Brexit was voted in by the poor and needy? Are you sure?


A lot of deprived areas voted leave - mine included. Austerity has had a devastating effect on peoples lives - there were no food banks round here a few years ago, now there are loads. Sadly, apart from the wealthy, we are going all to be even poorer for leaving the EU.

There's an interesting article here on the subject- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ng-brexit-vote-argues-professor-a7127751.html


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> It's in the accounts as shared with UK government. It is easy enough to find


I just thought that since you quoted it you might have the source to hand, but I'll have another look.

It's just that the one I found, while mentioning €1.4 billion which is not paid to the public sector, has no mention of anything 'going missing' or the 'corruption' which you claim that it shows.

It does mention "grants from the EU to companies or the income going directly to UK Universities to fund research", but with no implication whatsoever that anything dodgy might be happening.

The leap to 'missing' and 'corruption' seems to be yours.

I've seen lots of people use the word 'corrupt' when talking about the EU - especially in comics like the Express or as a throwaway word in UKIP speeches - but I've never seen any evidence that, as an institution made of people, it is any more or less 'corrupt' than any other, including Westminster. Repeat it often enough and people start believing it, and even stop questioning it, but of course that doesn't prove it. Some people I think have even used it as a reason for leaving.

But from the research I've done, the discrepancies in accounts mostly concern the use of funds in EU member states once they have been allocated. Those states are unable to prove that the funds were used solely for the purpose for which they were granted. This includes, of course, the UK. The figure is a small percentage - 2% is the cut-off, I believe. Comparing that with the UK's own internal accounts and it is certainly nothing exceptional. And discrepancies are not corruption, though no doubt an element of them will be so.

We should perhaps also remember that the total EU budget is €145 bn, while the UK's is £784bn.

If what I've said is based on a source other than the one I found, then please accept my apologies. It was why I asked for your source before replying; just to make sure.


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider* 13h13 hours ago

_Ah, UKIP. If only there were some 
organisation we could be part of that
guaranteed access to the Single Market...










_


----------



## noushka05

'Punch yourself in the face productions' 








*HaveIGotNewsForYou*‏Verified [email protected]*haveigotnews* Mar 21

In UK cinemas* from March 29th 
(*includes Scotland... for now):


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Enjoy your gathering.
> 
> Won't achieve anything except disruption for people going about there daily business.
> 
> The one London goes through four major tourist spots (how annoying for the tourists) before stopping outside Parliament. Just to let you know Parliament doesn't sit on Saturday so there's no PM or MP's in the building.


I take it you think the anti Poll Tax demos were a waste of time too?

I think people are well aware they'll be no MPs sitting on a Saturday!

This is not about telling Parliament, it's telling Europe and the rest of the world the entire UK doesn't embrace a hard Brexit that's forthcoming.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> While people like stockwellcat are rejoicing at destroying the country we have the UKIP:
> 
> https://www.farminguk.com/News/Acce...t-Brexit-says-UKIP-s-Mark-Reckless_45993.html
> 
> But we are having a hard brexit which means we cannot, in the EU words "have our cake and eat it"... We know from Cornwall how likely the "UK Government should commit to spending present levels of funding on agriculture in Wales". This from a member of the UKIP.


But he also said

Government,News

In the report Mr Reckless says: "For over four decades, the way in which agricultural produce is farmed,* sold and financially supported has been decided primarily at a European level.*

"Following the referendum outcome last June, *Wales now has a chance to mould those policies closer to home.*

"But we can only take advantage of this opportunity to reinvigorate our rural communities by ensuring that we, in Wales, do not lose out as a result of the vote to leave.

*"In the shorter term we have heard clear evidence that access to the Single Market place, continuation of financial support and assurances over migrant labour are critical priorities."*

Access to the single market is what we had before being embroiled in the EU and what most thought we were getting.
Financial support can come from our own government. 
The migrant farm workers have always come, they are temporary/seasonal workers and not setting up home here. Admittedly we need rather more now and we as a country need to make it easy for the workers we need to come. 
Not told that we have to take all and sundry


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> I just thought that since you quoted it


I didn't quote it, I used it as a point of reference. It is an indication of the kind of sites I usually use for reference however 

I also discovered on another site that The EU has ten times in percentage terms, misappropriate use of funds than the UK government. Even I was shocked at that one


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> But he also said
> 
> Government,News
> 
> In the report Mr Reckless says: "For over four decades, the way in which agricultural produce is farmed,* sold and financially supported has been decided primarily at a European level.*
> 
> "Following the referendum outcome last June, *Wales now has a chance to mould those policies closer to home.*
> 
> "But we can only take advantage of this opportunity to reinvigorate our rural communities by ensuring that we, in Wales, do not lose out as a result of the vote to leave.
> 
> *"In the shorter term we have heard clear evidence that access to the Single Market place, continuation of financial support and assurances over migrant labour are critical priorities."*
> 
> Access to the single market is what we had before being embroiled in the EU and what most thought we were getting.
> Financial support can come from our own government.
> The migrant farm workers have always come, they are temporary/seasonal workers and not setting up home here. Admittedly we need rather more now and we as a country need to make it easy for the workers we need to come.
> Not told that we have to take all and sundry


Looks to me like UKIP are trying to oppose the will of the people!

LOL


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Oh dear, are we at last running out of anti brexit propaganda material and have to rely on sarcasm
> 
> I wonder how low you will sink to try to change minds





Dr Pepper said:


> The problem is obvious, a few remainers are feeling awfully stupid and betrayed because they fell hook, line and sinker for the remain scare campaign. Now that the emergency budget (that was essential for the good of the country) didn't happen, the stock market hasn't crashed, the pound has fallen through the floor and interest rates haven't risen to the late 1980's rate (shame really, could do with a rise), they have to cling on to what, they've been told, might still happen, because feck all of what influenced their vote has come to diddly squat. All the ongoing scare stories are full of "may", "could" and "might", never "will". The only "will" that's a certainty is we will leave the EU
> 
> I've got friends that voted remain, the majority of whom are quite happy with the way things are turning out (to be fair most have just put it behind them and are getting on with life). None at any point got all angry and childish about it.





stockwellcat said:


> I am just catching up with this thread.
> Four points I would like to make, then I will be quiet again:
> 
> 1) The points the remainers keep making are getting ridiculously desperate or have already been discussed already over and over it becomes silly to keep regurgitating the same arguements again.
> 2) People voted the way they voted because in the UK we have something called free will and people exercised this on referendum day. You will either have to accept this or not, and believe it or not the majority of other remainers have accepted this.
> 3) I know the remainers favourite ex PM who lied to the British public over Iraq and lead is into war in Iraq has told you to change those that voted leave's minds. Do you want me to tell you something, you won't change people's minds, it's happened get over it.
> 4) No one knows what Brexit is going to look like until an agreement has been made after the negotiations. No so called expert can tell you (I will tell you a secret the so called experts are wrong the majority of the time so forgive me for not trusting in them as adamantly as you remainers do) and no person in authority can. All the reports so far in newspapers are guess work and nothing else. A so-called expert does not have a time machine or can tell the future and let's be honest so far they have been completely wrong over the vote to leave.
> 
> I know the remainers won't like what I said but you will never agree with me on this topic and I won't with you either. At least we know that.
> 
> Right I am done. Back behind the sofa I hide.


Well this is looking scarily accurate - even UKIP are back peddling now. Pity they ignored the experts.

Do you brexiteers still believe brexit is worth the gamble taking into account the very real risks to our farming industry?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Well this is looking scarily accurate - even UKIP are back peddling now. Pity they ignored the experts.
> 
> Do you brexiteers still believe brexit is worth the gamble taking into account the very real risks to our farming industry?
> 
> View attachment 304325


Absolutely worth the gamble.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Leaving will not be a foregone conclusion for a couple of years. Handing in article 50 is not the point of no return. There is no deal going to be better for the UK than we had before in the EU. If you think there is, again, show why.


So day after the referendum remainers were calling for a second vote, quietly confident they were.

Second vote not forthcoming, no worries it's gone to court and the MPs now get to decide, that's more like it, confident they were.

Oh shit MPs vote heavily in favour. Never mind it's going to the house of lords, thank god they'll stop it. Confident they were.

Oh, house of lords ignored and we start the process on the 29th. Hey never mind it's not legally binding we can still stay. Deluded they are now.

Serious question now, when the hell are you remainers going to understand what IS going to happen and get your head out of the sand?


----------



## Bisbow

Dr Pepper said:


> So day after the referendum remainers were calling for a second vote, quietly confident they were.
> 
> Second vote not forthcoming, no worries it's gone to court and the MPs now get to decide, that's more like it, confident they were.
> 
> Oh shit MPs vote heavily in favour. Never mind it's going to the house of lords, thank god they'll stop it. Confident they were.
> 
> Oh, house of lords ignored and we start the process on the 29th. Hey never mind it's not legally binding we can still stay. Deluded they are now.
> 
> Serious question now, when the hell are you remainers going to understand what IS going to happen and get your head out of the sand?


Theres none so blind as those that won't see and none so ignorant as those that won't learn


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> Absolutely worth the gamble.


Yes, I too think so. That isn't to say there will be no pain. There will be a lot. There will be collateral damage. But there will be early wins too, no doubt. There is never an easy time to exit from a bad relationship but the longer one leaves it the harder it becomes. Would that we had left this sorry mess many years ago; but we didn't and the breakup will be a bugger. The sooner we get on with it, the better.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Serious question now, when the hell are you remainers going to understand what IS going to happen and get your head out of the sand?


That's where you're wrong. If remainers had their heads in the sand they would not be continuing to protest against a hard Brexit.

And you think it will end when Article 50 is implemented?

Wrong again.

Brexiteers must be deluded to believe the entire UK will erupt in a union flag waving patriotic glory once Brexit becomes a reality.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> That's where you're wrong. If remainers had their heads in the sand they would not be continuing to protest against a hard Brexit.
> 
> And you think it will end when Article 50 is implemented?
> 
> Wrong again.
> 
> Brexiteers must be deluded to believe the entire UK will erupt in a union flag waving patriotic glory once Brexit becomes a reality.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> That's where you're wrong. If remainers had their heads in the sand they would not be continuing to protest against a hard Brexit.
> 
> And you think it will end when Article 50 is implemented?
> 
> Wrong again.
> 
> Brexiteers must be deluded to believe the entire UK will erupt in a union flag waving patriotic glory once Brexit becomes a reality.


Who are you protesting to? There's nobody left as it's been through every process possible. Get your head out of the sand and you'll see that.

The day we actually leave I expect life to quietly carry on, no flag waving or celebration. I also fully expect to be on a forum somewhere reading posts supporting the newly formed UK-In-Europe party, because it's still not to late.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Satori said:


> Yes, I too think so. That isn't to say there will be no pain. There will be a lot. There will be collateral damage. But there will be early wins too, no doubt. There is never an easy time to exit from a bad relationship but the longer one leaves it the harder it becomes. Would that we had left this sorry mess many years ago; but we didn't and the breakup will be a bugger. The sooner we get on with it, the better.


At least we had the sense not to join the single currency. We should be grateful for that at least.



KittenKong said:


> That's where you're wrong. If remainers had their heads in the sand they would not be continuing to protest against a hard Brexit.
> 
> And you think it will end when Article 50 is implemented?
> 
> Wrong again.
> 
> Brexiteers must be deluded to believe the entire UK will erupt in a union flag waving patriotic glory once Brexit becomes a reality.


Now now here you go again generalising. I doubt many leave voters have ever waved a union flag - although perhaps at the Queens Silver Jubilee in the 70's we had some union jack bunting. I hope your march goes well, I am all for peaceful protest, just hope you don't get a load of trouble makers turn up and try to hijack it resulting in the usual violence and poor behaviour.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Who are you protesting to? There's nobody left as it's been through every process possible. Get your head out of the sand and you'll see that.
> 
> The day we actually leave I expect life to quietly carry on, no flag waving or celebration. I also fully expect to be on a forum somewhere reading posts supporting the newly formed UK-In-Europe party, because it's still not to late.


Here we go again, words to the effect of, "We won, you lost, get over it"

I'm sorry that people not conforming to your way of thinking irritates you.

I think we know Parliament won't take the slightest bit of notice, but we need to tell the world not everyone in the UK is in favour of this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> That's where you're wrong. If remainers had their heads in the sand they would not be continuing to protest against a hard Brexit.
> 
> And you think it will end when Article 50 is implemented?
> 
> Wrong again.
> 
> Brexiteers must be deluded to believe the entire UK will erupt in a union flag waving patriotic glory once Brexit becomes a reality.


Why are you protesting? The Referendum was legal and voted through every stage by MP's and made law by the Queen. Article 50 has passed through both houses of parliament so has been democratically approved and the Queen has made it law. Nothing illegal has taken place, the Government were corrected in the law courts nothing else and the Government has abided to what the Justices in the Supreme Court said was lawful to do.

Protest as much as you like but when the UK leaves the EU life will carry on like it is now, it won't stop you know.

Yes I am confident that I done the right thing and voted leave and yes I would vote the same way again given the opportunity to do it again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> we need to tell the world not everyone in the UK is in favour of this.


The World has accepted the UK is leaving the EU and countries are lining up to trade with the UK. You will find that the rest of the World won't be interested in your anti Brexit protests.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Yes, I too think so. That isn't to say there will be no pain. There will be a lot. There will be collateral damage. But there will be early wins too, no doubt. There is never an easy time to exit from a bad relationship but the longer one leaves it the harder it becomes. Would that we had left this sorry mess many years ago; but we didn't and the breakup will be a bugger. The sooner we get on with it, the better.


Short term pain = long term gain.

I agree with you 100% that the sooner we get out the better.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

I don't see what the problem is with people protesting to be fair - isn't that what living in a democracy is all about? As long as it is peaceful and there is no intimidation or vandalism then it really doesn't bother me. I've been on many a march myself. If the vote had gone the other way perhaps some of us leave voters would be going on a march instead protesting at some new policy the EU was trying to impose on us.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> So day after the referendum remainers were calling for a second vote, quietly confident they were.


Actually the petetition was started by a leaver who thought they'd lose.



> Serious question now, when the hell are you remainers going to understand what IS going to happen and get your head out of the sand?


Put simply, even if we leave, you've divided the country for no good reason. That will not change. It's not simply finanicial and economic reasons we will be diminished.


----------



## Goblin

As for farmers and taking back control.. you mean like we are taking back control of immigration. Like May could have used the controls available under the EU but simply didn't... Or are you talking about how farmers decide to do something specific to qualify for funding, not because they are forced. In fact just how much is forced by the EU. I know rona's linked hedgerows before as proof as the devil's control. That wasn't forced, that was to gain a subsidy. Control is in the ability to say no which in many instances, is available.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> I agree with you 100% that the sooner we get out the better.


Same here as well.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> The World has accepted the UK is leaving the EU and *countries are lining up to trade with the UK. *You will find that the rest of the World won't be interested in your anti Brexit protests.


They might be, but there no such thing as Free Trade, it's still going to cost us money to trade with them, and it will take time to negotiate a deal.



stockwellcat said:


> Short term pain = long term gain.
> 
> I agree with you 100% that the sooner we get out the better.


Yes, and then we'll really know what a bl**dy mess we are in.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I didn't quote it, I used it as a point of reference. It is an indication of the kind of sites I usually use for reference however
> 
> I also discovered on another site that The EU has ten times in percentage terms, misappropriate use of funds than the UK government. Even I was shocked at that one


Do you perhaps have a source for that?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Germany in union with France would positively dwarf all others in EU.
Smaller EU members are truly concerned about this shift of power with no UK to balance it.

UK departure is really lose- lose situation, for both: EU and UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Lovely map*​


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> *Lovely map*​
> View attachment 304346


:Arghh:Vomit:Yuck

:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Absolutely worth the gamble.


So, you are prepared to gamble the lives of those who come after us. Sums up the attitude. Strangely so does your map. Nationalism is not something to be proud of.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> Theres none so blind as those that won't see and none so ignorant as those that won't learn


Totally agree. There are those you use information and facts to make decisions. Then there are those who simply prefer spin... Learning means looking at information based on reality.


----------



## KittenKong

What a wonderful day. Edinburgh couldn't have asked for better weather! Beautiful and sunny here.

A fantastic event with a wonderful atmosphere.

The officers of Police Scotland also deserve praise for their friendliness and assistance.

Never felt so proud.










The marchers in front.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So, you are prepared to gamble the lives of those who come after us. Sums up the attitude.


Where's the gamble? The UK will have over eight billion extra a year to spend as WE SEE FIT. That's extra and on top of the 4.5 billion we would have got from the EU which could, in theory, still be spent on the same subsidies etc, so no one loses out there. OK we're no longer, oops getting ahead of myself there, OK we'll no longer be in the single market but as gambles go it's a safer bet as you'll ever get.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Never felt so proud.


"Never"? Really? Then your life must have been woefully devoid of achievement.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> What a wonderful day. Edinburgh couldn't have asked for better weather! Beautiful and sunny here.
> 
> A fantastic event with a wonderful atmosphere.
> 
> The officers of Police Scotland also deserve praise for their friendliness and assistance.
> 
> Never felt so proud.
> 
> View attachment 304349
> 
> 
> The marchers in front.


So is it job done and were not leaving the EU now?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> What a wonderful day. Edinburgh couldn't have asked for better weather! Beautiful and sunny here.
> 
> A fantastic event with a wonderful atmosphere.
> 
> The officers of Police Scotland also deserve praise for their friendliness and assistance.
> 
> Never felt so proud.
> 
> View attachment 304349
> 
> 
> The marchers in front.


Glad it went off well and you had lovely weather. I used to love going on marches/demonstrations when I was a stroppy youngster and arranged a good few in my time.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Where's the gamble? The UK will have over eight billion extra a year to spend as WE SEE FIT.


So you did buy into the leave lie. So why is it that 350 million per week not going to the NHS? Why is it that funding for Cornwall, promised by the leave campaign (after all we have all that money we save to spend) not being replaced? Why is it that dispite the govenment stating it will "replace research funding" UK research in projects is being hit. It's not simply a matter of "we save X". things like the economy, taxes etc come into play. So how much tax do we lose from loss of passporting rights and the movement of that part of the financial services? How much from airlines having to be registered in the EU? Foreign students coming into the country adding to the economy? The need for extra border controls including in NI. The need for additional spending to set up controls for testing of goods entering the country. The need for more coastguard to protect our shores and fishing. The need to set up additional arbitration services for trade disputes. List goes on and on.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So, you are prepared to gamble the lives of those who come after us. Sums up the attitude. Strangely so does your map. Nationalism is not something to be proud of.


You know the answer to that.
Just incase you don't....
Yes, yes ,yes, yes.
The gamble will pay off in the end.

The repetitiveness of the remainers moaning is wearing off. I no longer take it seriously, the remainers that is. They are grasping at straws after all (the remainers that is).


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> :Arghh:Vomit:Yuck
> 
> :Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored


The repetitive remoaner can be classed as :Bored:Bored:Bored:Bored as well as we have had alot of stick from them name calling. The UK is leaving the EU it isn't the end of the world you know. It is the start of a new future.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> You know the answer to that.
> Just incase you don't....
> Yes, yes ,yes, yes.
> The gamble will pay off in the end.
> 
> The repetitiveness of the remainers moaning is wearing off. I no longer take it seriously, the remainers that is. They are grasping at straws after all (the remainers that is).


There is not evidence, just your own wishful thinking.

Thank you for gambling with my country.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> There is not evidence, just your own wishful thinking.
> 
> Thank you for gambling with my country.


Yawn
We are leaving the EU get used to it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> The UK is leaving the EU it isn't the end of the world you know. It is the start of a new future.


----------



## rona

I see only a few thousand were worried enough to march, quite a few less than 17 million


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


>











So you don't believe TM will trigger Article 50. You are so wrong. Roll on Wednesday.






















A few thousand people won't change her mind or ours.

Sorry I shouldn't lower myself to your standards.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Deleted will try again.


----------



## rona

The poison dwarf in Scotland must be very disheartened, they could only muster a few hundred, even the best estimates only say 1000.
I wonder how that makes her protestations stand?


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 304351
> 
> So you don't believe TM will trigger Article 50. You are so wrong. Roll on Wednesday.
> 
> A few thousand people won't change her mind or ours.
> 
> Sorry I shouldn't lower myself to your standards.


Of cause the silly cow will, she has no choice, that what was voted for. But I don't have to like or agree with it do I.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> So is it job done and were not leaving the EU now?


Of course not, but does give an indication of the opposition to it, especially in Scotland remembering 62% voted remain!



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Glad it went off well and you had lovely weather. I used to love going on marches/demonstrations when I was a stroppy youngster and arranged a good few in my time.


Thank you! First time I've been on a march since the Poll Tax in 1989.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> The *poison dwarf* in Scotland must be very disheartened, they could only muster a few hundred, even the best estimates only say 1000.
> I wonder how that makes her protestations stand?


Wasn't she in Dallas

Anyway she better than the TM and as vicars daugther she'd make a good door woman for hell.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Of course not, but does give an indication of the opposition to it, especially in Scotland remembering 62% voted remain!


But only 1000 on the march!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Of course not, but does give an indication of the opposition to it, especially in Scotland remembering 62% voted remain!
> 
> Thank you! First time I've been on a march since the Poll Tax in 1989.


But only 1000 turned up in Scotland for the march.


----------



## noushka05

Wow awesome scenes in London - only wish we could have been there. Gotta laugh at the brextremists on twitter trying their best to play this crowd down lol

I've been out for much of the day but I'm hearing its been yet another BBC blackout? 




























Loving these placards


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Wow awesome scenes in London - only wish we could have been there. Gotta laugh at the brextremists on twitter trying their best to play this crowd down lol
> 
> I've been out for much of the day but I'm hearing its been yet another BBC blackout?
> 
> View attachment 304352
> 
> 
> View attachment 304359
> 
> 
> View attachment 304353
> 
> 
> Loving these placards
> 
> View attachment 304357
> 
> 
> View attachment 304354
> 
> 
> View attachment 304355
> 
> 
> View attachment 304356
> 
> 
> View attachment 304358


Two words spring to mind. Sore Losers.


----------



## noushka05

hahaaa


----------



## rona

rona said:


> But only 1000 on the march!!!


I stand corrected. the police think it may have been as high as 1,500.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39394945

Scottish population 5,373,000. Population of Edinburgh, where the march held 464,990

Not exactly a huge success


----------



## rona

I think the BBC concentrated on the good side of the march. 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39392584

"Tens of thousands of anti-Brexit demonstrators fell silent to remember the victims of the Westminster attack."

"The Unite for Europe campaigners held a minute's silence before speakers took to the stage to address the crowd."


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> I don't want to keep all the muslims out of the country, they are not all bad
> Just the murderers, rapists and criminals no matter where they come from
> I don't want to build a wall to keep out the Scots or the welsh or Irish
> 
> Will that do for starters to prove I am not a Trump supporter


@Bisbow: I studied German and Russian at university. Surely that prove I'm neither illiterate nor xenophobic? And I don't have a TV to watch and I don't eat Frosties.


----------



## noushka05

Protestors paying respect to the victims of the Westminster attack.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> @Bisbow: I studied German and Russian at university. Surely that prove I'm neither illiterate nor xenophobic? And I don't have a TV to watch and I don't eat Frosties.


You may not be a xenophobe Calvine, but you'd have to be wilfully blind not to see the leave campaign was xenophobic.


----------



## noushka05

_"Theresa May makes Nigel Farage look like a moderate" _ Scathing words from Tim Farron.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You may not be a xenophobe Calvine, but you'd have to be wilfully blind not to see the leave campaign was xenophobic.


Sticks and stones may break my bones but names with never hurt me.

You know this is absolutely rubbish and you are spouting rubbish.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> _"Theresa May makes Nigel Farage look like a moderate" _ Scathing words from Tim Farron.


She is a woman of her word.
I am glad we have her as leader and not a weak lying Cameron anymore.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Two words spring to mind. Sore Losers.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> Provide examples then. "we are leaving", "I felt like it", "I hate the EU" and "we won a referendum" are the only answers which haven't been debunked by reality


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Flax-and-fiction-on-the-plains-of-Spain.html

Articles like this didn't fill people with confidence; I also read ''Brussels laid Bare'' which was a bit of an eye-opener; and you are no doubt also aware that UK subsidised BULLFIGHTING to the tune of £13.5 million per annum. (Think this was stopped quite recently.)


----------



## rona

This make for an interesting read
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/09/how-greece-fumbled-refugee-crisis

I haven't checked the facts here but assume some of this is checkable


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Sticks and stones may break my bones but names with never hurt me.
> 
> You know this is absolutely rubbish and you are spouting rubbish.


You really are in a serious state of denial. Cognitive dissonance - I come across this condition all the time when debating with climate change deniers.

Wouldn't matter how unequivocal the evidence - you would still deny it.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I see only a few thousand were worried enough to march, quite a few less than 17 million


Well, if you think you can do better why not give a pro Faragemay carnival a go?


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> You may not be a xenophobe Calvine, but you'd have to be wilfully blind not to see the leave campaign was xenophobic.


Suggesting that Frau Merkel got it wrong and that immigration should be controlled is sensible, not xenophobic. We can only accommodate so many adequately if they are going to be successfully integrated. Their needs are manifold, especially so since their languages and cultures are in most cases very different from ours.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Well, if you think you can do better why not give a pro Faragemay carnival a go?


The pro hunting march was bigger than that........what does that tell you


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> You really are in a serious state of denial. Cognitive dissonance - I come across this condition all the time when debating with climate change deniers.
> 
> Wouldn't matter how unequivocal the evidence - you would still deny it.
> 
> View attachment 304365


Hahaha describes you to a tee


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> The pro hunting march was bigger than that........what does that tell you


It wasn't a pro hunting march. It was just hijacked by the bloodsports brigade.


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> It wasn't a pro hunting march. It was just hijacked by the bloodsports brigade.


If you say so.

Lets say that last years boxing day hunts drew more people and it was cold that day


----------



## KittenKong

The person you label a "Poison Dwarf" was democracy elected to serve the people of Scotland. She's doing the Job extremely well.

Mrs Faragemay wasn't even democratically elected, but I'll refrain from further comment on her.

Brexiteers are clearly upset the objection to Brexit is very strong.

It'll only get stronger I'm afraid.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So you did buy into the leave lie. So why is it that 350 million per week not going to the NHS? Why is it that funding for Cornwall, promised by the leave campaign (after all we have all that money we save to spend) not being replaced? Why is it that dispite the govenment stating it will "replace research funding" UK research in projects is being hit. It's not simply a matter of "we save X". things like the economy, taxes etc come into play. So how much tax do we lose from loss of passporting rights and the movement of that part of the financial services? How much from airlines having to be registered in the EU? Foreign students coming into the country adding to the economy? The need for extra border controls including in NI. The need for additional spending to set up controls for testing of goods entering the country. The need for more coastguard to protect our shores and fishing. The need to set up additional arbitration services for trade disputes. List goes on and on.


Not fallen for anything, I've not even mentioned 350 million a week so certainly not fallen for that or the NHS bit. Why are you so adamant that people couldn't make up their minds and we all fell for the spin? Very strange attitude to have.

Everything else you say is speculation, today we have no idea where the money saved will eventually be spent.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The person you label a "Poison Dwarf" was democracy elected to serve the people of Scotland. She's doing the Job extremely well.
> 
> Mrs Faragemay wasn't even democratically elected, but I'll refrain from further comment on her.
> 
> Brexiteers are clearly upset the objection to Brexit is very strong.
> 
> It'll only get stronger I'm afraid.


Do you know, it doesn't bother me at all because the referendum has already been done (thank you David), the elected government are now in agreement that we should go ahead and on Wednesday the process will start. What have I got to be upset about?

The reason I call her the poison dwarf is her demeanour, she screws her little face up in a rage and stamps her feet. She looks like a cartoon character and acts like one too. If she wasn't so nasty she'd be funny. Sorry. I just don't like her and what she stands for. Her predecessor on the other hand seems to have integrity


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> The person you label a "Poison Dwarf" was democracy elected to serve the people of Scotland. She's doing the Job extremely well.
> 
> Mrs Faragemay wasn't even democratically elected, but I'll refrain from further comment on her.
> 
> Brexiteers are clearly upset the objection to Brexit is very strong.
> 
> It'll only get stronger I'm afraid.


Mrs May was elected. We don't vote for party leaders but our local candidate. The political parties vote for their leaders.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Hahaha describes you to a tee


lol

Remind me again who has been in denial *for years *about gamekeepers wiping out our hen harriers?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> The pro hunting march was bigger than that........what does that tell you


Again, I suggest if you think you can do better, go for a pro Brexit and Farage/May event.

Besides you can't expect everyone to attend these events.

You're attempting to dull down what's been a marvellous peaceful demonstration.

You should have been to one of them before expressing negative comments from the media.

I'll tell you about how tolerance and peaceful us EU citizens are. There was a sole Brexiteer demonstrating with his Union flag and, "Leave Means Leave" banner.

Not one of us objected him expressing his views.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> If you say so.
> 
> Lets say that last years boxing day hunts drew more people and it was cold that day


There's a hell of a lot of twisted individuals in this country, there's no doubt about that..


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Again, I suggest if you think you can do better, go for a pro Brexit and Farage/May event.


I wouldn't want to and what would there be to march against?

We are getting out


----------



## noushka05

Aint this the truth.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Mrs May was elected. We don't vote for party leaders but our local candidate. The political parties vote for their leaders.


David Cameron, a comparative moderate was elected. When Blair resigned Corbyn didn't take over and move Labour to the left which is what May has done with the Tories.

Yet people like you were the first to label Gordon Brown as an, "Unelected PM".

I would agree with that but that doesn't justify calling Brown one and not May.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Yet people like you were the first to label Gordon Brown as an, "Unelected PM".
> 
> I would agree with that but that doesn't justify calling Brown one and not May.


Big assumption there


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I wouldn't want to and what would there be to march against?
> 
> We are getting out


YOU ARE! End of.
Do NOT associate me with Brexit.

I hope you get the hard Brexit you voted for and will be the predicted disaster.

Just don't come winging to us if it is.

YOU voted for it.

Get on with it.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I hope you get the hard Brexit you voted for and will be the predicted disaster.


Did I, how do you come to that conclusion?

That wasn't an option on the voting form


----------



## noushka05

Ship of fools


----------



## noushka05




----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Did I, how do you come to that conclusion?
> 
> That wasn't an option on the voting form


At last !!!!


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> At last !!!!


Finally a brexiter admits the truth.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> The poison dwarf in Scotland must be very disheartened, they could only muster a few hundred, even the best estimates only say 1000.
> I wonder how that makes her protestations stand?


Scottish members of pf must be really delighted by those comments if they still come to General Chat. They make them more than ever want to stay in the Union.


----------



## KittenKong

The thing is I think we've achieved what we set out to do.

Show Europe and the world the entire UK doesn't endorse Brexit and British Nationalism.

We remain Europeans regardless of what May and Farage think.

Many ordinary, decent, hard working people took part in Edinburgh and London today.

I am proud of you all.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> At last !!!!


You really should read posts you know and then you may have some insight into why others voted out and what they actually think about the way it's being handled,

Maybe you should go and read my posts about immigrants already in this country to understand.

I will however say that I think Theresa is doing a great job on the whole and I certainly wouldn't want to be in her shoes for all the money in the EU 



KittenKong said:


> We remain Europeans regardless of what May


Honestly 

May also thinks of us as European, why on earth wouldn't she?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> YOU ARE! End of.
> Do NOT associate me with Brexit.
> 
> I hope you get the hard Brexit you voted for and will be the predicted disaster.
> 
> Just don't come winging to us if it is.
> 
> YOU voted for it.
> 
> Get on with it.


This thread is becoming so nasty and unpleasant now because the remainers did not get their way; be careful you don't get it closed! By the way, it's ''whinge'' not ''wing''...just saying. And I really don't imagine anyone will come whingeing to you...that is rather an arrogant assumption!! I mean...why in God's name would Rona do that...why would anyone?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Do NOT associate me with Brexit


You flatter yourself I'm thinking.


----------



## noushka05

Peter Tatchell -

" we must stand together in Europe against climate change, Trump & Putin'

*Peter Tatchell*‏@*PeterTatchell* 5h5 hours ago

Thanks to the EU we have clean beaches, workers rights, no roaming charges & consumer protections


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> This thread is becoming so nasty and unpleasant now because the remainers did not get their way; be careful you don't get it closed! By the way, it's ''whinge'' not ''wing''...just saying. And I really don't imagine anyone will come whingeing to you...that is rather an arrogant assumption!! I mean...why in God's name would Rona do that...why would anyone?


Nasty , selfish and patronising. And that only touching the Scottish wish for referendum .
Obviously they do not deserve any rights to decide for themselves whether they want to be ruled from another country while being dragged out of EU.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> This thread is becoming so nasty and unpleasant now because the remainers did not get their way; be careful you don't get it closed! By the way, it's ''whinge'' not ''wing''...just saying. And I really don't imagine anyone will come whingeing to you...that is rather an arrogant assumption!! I mean...why in God's name would Rona do that...why would anyone?


Considering what we stand to lose I think us remainers have been pretty restrained tbqh.

I only hope when it all goes to pot the people who gambled with future of our country will be big enough to 'own it' & not find some other scapegoat to take the blame.


----------



## stuaz

I see a lot of posts in this thread that typically just say the same thing - "the UK will fail when we leave the EU".

There are what, about 196 countries in the whole world, right? There are 28 countries in the EU currently.

The other 168 countries, who are not part of EU, would they all be considered xenophobic and countries that are failing?

Just curious really as to why the UK not being part of the EU automatically means failure, and that (as some have said on here) that the UK is xenophobic.


----------



## KittenKong

More photos from the excellent event in Edinburgh earlier today. The Angel of the North photo is my own, the rest from the Facebook page.























We were in front of the last banner.
Says it all.....


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Nasty , selfish and patronising.


To whom or to what does this refer?


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Considering what we stand to lose I think us remainers have been pretty restrained tbqh.


You have got to be joking.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> The reason I call her the poison dwarf is her demeanour, she screws her little face up in a rage and stamps her feet. She looks like a cartoon character and acts like one too. If she wasn't so nasty she'd be funny. Sorry. I just don't like her and what she stands for. Her predecessor on the other hand seems to have integrity


Sounds like May you're referring to to me. Seriously, you don't have to like Nicola Sturgeon but what business is it of yours, or mine for that matter, who the Scottish elect as their leader?

Scottish Tory Ruth Davison amuses me in saying there's no appetite for Indyref 2 in Scotland. I can assure her there's even less appetite for a Scottish Tory (and Labour for that matter) government!



cheekyscrip said:


> Scottish members of pf must be really delighted by those comments if they still come to General Chat. They make them more than ever want to stay in the Union.


Just like to Poll Tax introduced in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK. Just another place up North according to Southerners.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> You have got to be joking.


????? Do you find objection to Brexit that distasteful?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> You flatter yourself I'm thinking.


Hardly. I don't consider myself any better nor worse than anyone which I can't say for some Brexiteers here.

I just dislike the term "We", as that indicates everyone. I didn't vote for Brexit so I object to being told "we" did as if I had done too. I accept this probably wasn't what Rona meant.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> To whom or to what does this refer?


To posts about second referendum for Scotland. 
If I were Scottish would find nasty, selfish and patronising.

Very much like things Spanish right posts about Gibraltar.
It has the opposite effect , believe me.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> ????? Do you find objection to Brexit that distasteful?


Distasteful...what on earth are you on about now?


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> To posts about second referendum for Scotland.


When did I mention Scotland?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> When did I mention Scotland?


I did not refer to you personally, but to your post on nasty comments on this thread.
Apologies if it came cross as aimed at you.
I might not agree with you on Brexit, but do not find things you post insulting.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yet people like you were the first to label Gordon Brown as an, "Unelected PM".


Gordon Brown was unelected, he ousted Tony Blair he was quite nasty to Blair if I remember rightly. Gordon Brown wasn't elected by his party or the general public and almost took this country to bankruptcy. Try getting your facts right @KittenKong you are really twisting things and grasping at straws.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> nasty comments on this thread.


There are some nasty and insulting comments on this thread and they aren't coming from the leave voters side.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Aint this the truth.


Damn right lie.
We are only becoming divided because certain remainers won't accept Brexit. Get behind Brexit and become a united country.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> There's a hell of a lot of twisted individuals in this country, there's no doubt about that..


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The person you label a "Poison Dwarf" was democracy elected to serve the people of Scotland. She's doing the Job extremely well.


Just one thing wrong with your scenario Scotland is not an independent country and is Governed by the UK Government and they are only a devolved Government they do not have Independent powers separate from the UK.

Look at the turn out today, small in number, Scots aren't interested in Independence they want to stay in the UK union.

One last thing she is a poison dwarf (hell bent on taking Scotland out if the UK union and making Scotland worse off, disrespecting the will of the Scottish people in 2014) many Scots believe she is as well.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> YOU ARE! End of.
> Do NOT associate me with Brexit.
> 
> I hope you get the hard Brexit you voted for and will be the predicted disaster.
> 
> Just don't come winging to us if it is.
> 
> YOU voted for it.
> 
> Get on with it.


Wow the remainers cause is becoming very nasty and childish because they didn't get there own way.

This thread is really becoming silly now.

I won't be surprised if it gets closed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

stuaz said:


> I see a lot of posts in this thread that typically just say the same thing - "the UK will fail when we leave the EU".
> 
> *There are what, about 196 countries in the whole world, right? There are 28 countries in the EU currently.*
> 
> *The other 168 countries, who are not part of EU, would they all be considered xenophobic and countries that are failing?*
> 
> *Just curious really as to why the UK not being part of the EU **automatically** means failure, *and that (as some have said on here) that the UK is xenophobic.


Let's be honest. You'll be very lucky to get a sensible answer to your very good questions as the thread seems to be spiralling into sillyness and no doubt will be closed before you do get a sensible reply.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> ????? Do you find objection to Brexit that distasteful?


Do you find Brexit that distasteful?

Reading your posts yes very much.

Your posting pattern has somewhat descended to the point to be honest that I will now switch off and not reply to you as I am not rising to the bait so you can be nasty to me like you have other posters on this thread and start hurling abuse at me and insults and name calling.

Glad you had a nice day today.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> There are some nasty and insulting comments on this thread and they aren't coming from the leave voters side.


Really? Are you reading Leave posts? Some of them are quite rude .
Like even " Remoaners"...
You possibly will only be affected by beer price..or so you hope...
So easy to take a gamble on someone's else future if yours looks safe Brexit or not.

Brexit already affected millions whose money shrunk and perspectives dimmed....whose future is uncertain and they did no wrong!!!

Whose tax went up and life turned upside down.

May has no intention to protect those directly affected.

Funny if you find yourself on wrong side of Brexit?
Who knows?
Hope you will not moan.
I know someone who voted and now will be jobless as company is moving back to EU....


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I will however say that I think Theresa is doing a great job on the whole and I certainly wouldn't want to be in her shoes for all the money in the EU
> 
> May also thinks of us as European, why on earth wouldn't she?


May is more interested in power and control from the way she's performed. The fact she's changed her stance from one side of the campaign to the other in the most extreme form bothers me. It's as extreme as if Farage became strongly pro EU overnight.

I find it irritating some compare her to Thatcher. I would compare her to Marie Le Penn myself.



noushka05 said:


> Considering what we stand to lose I think us remainers have been pretty restrained tbqh.
> 
> I only hope when it all goes to pot the people who gambled with future of our country will be big enough to 'own it' & not find some other scapegoat to take the blame.


Oh, it'll be the remoaners' fault for not believing in Britain of course.

It'll be funny in time if there's no Britain to believe in if the UK breaks up.


----------



## KittenKong

Been saying this for a long time.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...l-fail-without-compromise-jose-manuel-barroso


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I also discovered on another site that The EU has ten times in percentage terms, misappropriate use of funds than the UK government. Even I was shocked at that one


Do you have a source for this, please?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> You really should read posts you know and then you may have some insight into why others voted out and what they actually think about the way it's being handled,
> 
> Maybe you should go and read my posts about immigrants already in this country to understand.
> 
> I will however say that I think Theresa is doing a great job on the whole and I certainly wouldn't want to be in her shoes for all the money in the EU
> 
> Honestly
> 
> May also thinks of us as European, why on earth wouldn't she?


Grovelling to tyrants, deporting decent people, using EU migrants as pawns. May might be doing a great job in your eyes but shes making me ashamed & embarrassed. She certainly doesn't represent my values.



stuaz said:


> I see a lot of posts in this thread that typically just say the same thing - "the UK will fail when we leave the EU".
> 
> There are what, about 196 countries in the whole world, right? There are 28 countries in the EU currently.
> 
> The other 168 countries, who are not part of EU, would they all be considered xenophobic and countries that are failing?
> 
> Just curious really as to why the UK not being part of the EU automatically means failure, and that (as some have said on here) that the UK is xenophobic.


The EU is the biggest trade bloc in the word Stuaz. When we leave its estimated our trade would tumble by 59%.










I wouldn't call any country xenophobic based on that alone. However, the main argument for leaving was scapegoating migrants for Britain's problems. The NHS crisis, housing, school & homeless crisis were all blamed on immigration when in reality they are due to governments austerity policy- so in effect we are now going to hand sole power to the very people responsible for our failing society.

If you don't trust experts, you only need to look what the government themselves are saying to know brexit is going to be a disaster. May has indicated Britain could become a tax haven. They are talking about deregulating legislation which protects our environment, workers rights etc. Then there was David Davis. Did you hear his answers to the Brexit committee?

We're in the hands of a bunch of incompetent fools.

This sums things up perfectly Stuaz.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Grovelling to tyrants, deporting decent people, using EU migrants as pawns. May might be doing a great job in your eyes but shes making me ashamed & embarrassed. She certainly doesn't represent my


Absolutely spot on there Noushka. She and her like make me ashamed to be called, "British". She "speaks" to "her subjects" as if they're all Sun readers while grovelling to tyrants while becoming one herself.

May said herself the Tories are the nasty party. It's nastier than ever under her leadership.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely spot on there Noushka. She and her like make me ashamed to be called, "British". She "speaks" to "her subjects" as if they're all Sun readers while grovelling to tyrants while becoming one herself.
> 
> May said herself the Tories are the nasty party. It's nastier than ever under her leadership.


May will go down as the PM who presided over the destruction of not only our NHS - but the United Kingdom. What a legacy, hey?

Not even under Thatcher were we this divided.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> May is more interested in power and control from the way she's performed. The fact she's changed her stance from one side of the campaign to the other in the most extreme form bothers me


Don't you realise she had to change her stance as you put it. She is now our PM and therefore has to do her job and take us out of the E.U. as the majority of the people voted to come out.Which she will be doing next Wednesday thank goodness.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Get behind Brexit and become a united country.


Tut, tut. You're obtruding again. However, it may have escaped your attention, people just don't get behind something they disapprove of.
They get in front of it to stop it.

That's lunacy in itself and sheer lunacy to expect it or demand it of people.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Tut, tut. You're obtruding again. However, it may have escaped your attention, people just don't get behind something they disapprove of.
> They get in front of it to stop it.
> 
> That's lunacy in itself and sheer lunacy to expect it or demand it of people.


Your choice but no one is listening to the tantrum's which is what they are. I notice the numbers of supporters for the remain side in these protests are dwindling hence the poor turn out yesterday.


----------



## noushka05

More great pics from yesterdays march 

This is my favourite aww


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Your choice.


Really?

How neglectful of you. I believe I had previously informed this forum that I did not get 'a choice'

Perhaps it's still in the post.:Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> I did not refer to you personally, but to your post on nasty comments on this thread.
> Apologies if it came cross as aimed at you.
> I might not agree with you on Brexit, but do not find things you post insulting.


Thank you for clarifying, @cheekyscrip; I appreciate that!


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Suggesting that Frau Merkel got it wrong and that immigration should be controlled is sensible, not xenophobic. We can only accommodate so many adequately if they are going to be successfully integrated. Their needs are manifold, especially so since their languages and cultures are in most cases very different from ours.


Sorry I overlooked this yesterday. The point is we have always had full control of our borders. The leave campaign lied, the right wing media lied - the government played along with the lie.

But the governments own white paper confirms this fact.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dr Pepper said:


> Where's the gamble? *The UK will have over eight billion extra a year to spend as WE SEE FIT. *That's extra and on top of the 4.5 billion we would have got from the EU which could, in theory, still be spent on the same subsidies etc, so no one loses out there. OK we're no longer, oops getting ahead of myself there, OK we'll no longer be in the single market but as gambles go it's a safer bet as you'll ever get.


If that's (which I doubt is anythings like) true, the most of it will go to the new countries we will have to trade with.



stockwellcat said:


> *She is a woman of her word.*
> I am glad we have her as leader and not a weak lying Cameron anymore.


How can you say that when she voted to remain.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Don't you realise she had to change her stance as you put it. She is now our PM and therefore has to do her job and take us out of the E.U. as the majority of the people voted to come out.Which she will be doing next Wednesday thank goodness.


Changing her stance is a nice way of putting it. But before the referendum she stated, unequivocally, that Brexit would be economically bad for Britain. Now, apparently, we are all going to be - unequivocally - better off.

One of those two is something she does not believe. One of them, in her own opinion, is a lie.


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> If that's (which I doubt is anythings like) true, the most of it will go to the new countries we will have to trade with.
> 
> How can you say that when she voted to remain.


Exactly. Like Donald Trump, Theresa May is a nothing more than a duplicitous liar.

This is an excellent summary in this mornings Observer.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> she voted to remain.


 To shut Cameron up yes. She was a leaver in disguise. Didn't you know this?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> But the governments own white paper confirms this fact.


How do you know this as you refused to read it? Are you using second hand hearsay from those who feed your obsession of fear and anti Brexit rhetoric, which is someone elses opinion not your own opinion.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> View attachment 304428


So the reporter of this newspaper can see into the future? Wow we have some great theorists out there who like predicting things that haven't happened yet and putting a bit of doom and gloom in there when they don't actually know themselves what will happen.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat said:


> To shut Cameron up yes. She was a leaver in disguise. Didn't you know this?


Why would she been in the remain camp just to `shut Cameron up` ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> Why would she been in the remain camp just to `shut Cameron up` ?


Alot of MP's disagreed with Cameron over Brexit and he threatened them with there jobs if they switched sides if you remember he demanded they got behind his campaign to remain.


----------



## Bisbow

Happy Paws said:


> How can you say that when she voted to remain.


She may have voted remain but unlike Cameron she is doing what the majority of the people wanted and not running away and sulking

She is doing what she is supposed to do and backing the people who want out


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> To shut Cameron up yes. She was a leaver in disguise. Didn't you know this?


If that's true why did she say Brexit would be damaging for the country during the referendum campaign, not forgetting her "concern" over the return of a hard border with the Irish Republic.

Let's say you are right. It would prove only one thing.

It would show her up to be a liar wouldn't it?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Alot of MP's disagreed with Cameron over Brexit and he threatened them with there jobs if they switched sides if you remember he demanded they got behind his campaign to remain.


Think people were sacked for having voting against Brexit?
Heseltine?
House of Lords bullied.
Judges bullied.
Oh, because they wanted Parliament ( MPs democratically elected by us to represent us) to have meaningful vote on Brexit.

EU was our protection from deluge of Chinese products, workforce etc...








Now, that Parliament is shunned, those who bankrolled Brexit will take control.

I think Asia is rising, Brexit or not, they are the future, but UK now effectively put their hand into not only destroying Britain, but also damaging the whole of EU and Western Europe...
China, Russia, India, Pakistan benefitting the most from Brexit.

Germany/ France are now dominating EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Bisbow said:


> She may have voted remain but unlike Cameron she is doing what the majority of the people wanted and not running away and sulking
> 
> She is doing what she is supposed to do and backing the people who want out


How can you tell me that majority of people wanted out with no deal , no access to single market?
Leave won by narrow margin and only the UKiP supporters and not that many others would want " rash out" Brexit?

At all costs?


----------



## Bisbow

cheekyscrip said:


> How can you tell me that majority of people wanted out with no deal , no access to single market?
> Leave won by narrow margin and only the UKiP supporters and not that many others would want " rash out" Brexit?
> 
> At all costs?


You have no idea what she has up her sleeve any more than I do
And if I where her I would not tell the likes of you what I was going to do as you would do your best to scupper it


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> Grovelling to tyrants, deporting decent people, using EU migrants as pawns. May might be doing a great job in your eyes but shes making me ashamed & embarrassed. She certainly doesn't represent my values.
> 
> The EU is the biggest trade bloc in the word Stuaz. When we leave its estimated our trade would tumble by 59%.
> 
> View attachment 304417
> 
> 
> I wouldn't call any country xenophobic based on that alone. However, the main argument for leaving was scapegoating migrants for Britain's problems. The NHS crisis, housing, school & homeless crisis were all blamed on immigration when in reality they are due to governments austerity policy- so in effect we are now going to hand sole power to the very people responsibleh for our failing society.
> 
> If you don't trust experts, you only need to look what the government themselves are saying to know brexit is going to be a disaster. May has indicated Britain could become a tax haven. They are talking about deregulating legislation which protects our environment, workers rights etc. Then there was David Davis. Did you hear his answers to the Brexit committee?
> 
> We're in the hands of a bunch of incompetent fools.
> 
> This sums things up perfectly Stuaz.
> 
> View attachment 304420


While I accept the point your trying to make, it doesn't really answer my question at how leaving the EU will guarantee the country will fail, while the vast majority of other countries outside the EU are not what I would consider 'failing'.

Or is it because its a Tory government in charge of Brexit?... Is that the main reason for the assumptions?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Think people were sacked for having voting against Brexit?
> Heseltine?
> House of Lords bullied.
> Judges bullied.
> Oh, because they wanted Parliament ( MPs democratically elected by us to represent us) to have meaningful vote on Brexit.
> 
> EU was our protection from deluge of Chinese products, workforce etc...
> View attachment 304432
> 
> Now, that Parliament is shunned, those who bankrolled Brexit will take control.
> 
> I think Asia is rising, Brexit or not, they are the future, but UK now effectively put their hand into not only destroying Britain, but also damaging the whole of EU and Western Europe...
> China, Russia, India, Pakistan benefitting the most from Brexit.
> 
> Germany/ France are now dominating EU.


Again in your eyes it is ok for the EU to trade with China, USA, India, Australia, New Zealand etc but not the UK. Why?

I am sure the trade negotiators in the UK are able to strike trade deals with these countries you know and protect the UK's interests at the same time.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat said:


> Alot of MP's disagreed with Cameron over Brexit and he threatened them with there jobs if they switched sides if you remember he demanded they got behind his campaign to remain.


Yes I remember, Gove, Johnson Leadsom, etc. all stood by their convictions that UK should leave the EU. May did as she was told because her political career is more important than any beliefs she may hold. May will do whatever to stay in power, she does not fear opposition from other parties but she does fear opposition within her own party, the threat to power always comes from within. Parliament may be singing off the same hymn sheet `it`s the will of the people` regarding triggering Article 50 but once past that stage May is going to be under pressure from her own party, that above all else will be the driving factor in how she performs.


----------



## samuelsmiles

I think, maybe, we can all change our opinions at times. 

The left must put Britain's EU withdrawal on the agenda. Owen Jones, Guardian, 2015. 

"Progressives should be appalled by European Union's ruination of Greece. It's time to reclaim the Eurosceptic cause." Owen Jones

"Everything good about the EU is in retreat; everything bad is on the rampage," George Monbiot
"the EU is being portrayed "with some truth, as a cruel, fanatical and stupid institution" Nick Cohen

Much of the left campaigned against entering the European Economic Community when Margaret Thatcher and the like campaigned for membership.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> I think, maybe, we can all change our opinions at times.
> 
> The left must put Britain's EU withdrawal on the agenda. Owen Jones, Guardian, 2015.
> 
> "Progressives should be appalled by European Union's ruination of Greece. It's time to reclaim the Eurosceptic cause." Owen Jones
> 
> "Everything good about the EU is in retreat; everything bad is on the rampage," George Monbiot
> "the EU is being portrayed "with some truth, as a cruel, fanatical and stupid institution" Nick Cohen
> 
> Much of the left campaigned against entering the European Economic Community when Margaret Thatcher and the like campaigned for membership.


Yes, but not at an instant on becoming PM!!

However, many Brexiteers believe every EU supporter will come round to their way of thinking and get irritated when they don't.

They better be prepared for further irritation over the next few years then.....


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Yes, but not at an instant on becoming PM!


Actually that's exactly the time she had to support leaving the EU, she couldn't do the job otherwise. Good on her for being sensible enough to realise her "side" didn't win and get on with it in a enthusiastic, timely and professional manner. Shame not everyone seems to have this ability!


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually that's exactly the time she had to support leaving the EU, she couldn't do the job otherwise. Good on her for being sensible enough to realise her "side" didn't win and get on with it in a enthusiastic, timely and professional manner. Shame not everyone seems to have this ability!


I see where you're coming from but the point I'm making is May herself said issues against Brexit during the referendum campaign. Wouldn't you have thought she would be exercising caution and damage limitation with the EU rather than go for a hard Brexit she herself once said wouldn't in the interests of her country?

Seeing she's had meetings with a certain media tycoon makes you wonder who's really in control.

The way she bleats on you'd think she believes Sun readers represent the people.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Yes, but not at an instant on becoming PM!!
> 
> However, many Brexiteers believe every EU supporter will come round to their way of thinking and get irritated when they don't.
> 
> They better be prepared for further irritation over the next few years then.....


Some people are irritated when the tories are in power
Some people are irritated when labour is in power

The difference in they don't throw their toys out of the pram and demand a new election or call the other side nasty names

Any way your irritation is only a minor itch to be scratches and forgotten


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> I see where you're coming from but the point I'm making is May herself said issues against Brexit during the referendum campaign. Wouldn't you have thought she would be exercising caution and damage limitation with the EU rather than go for a hard Brexit she herself once said wouldn't in the interests of her country?
> 
> Seeing she's had meetings with a certain media tycoon makes you wonder who's really in control.
> 
> The way she bleats on you'd think she believes Sun readers represent the people.


Not really because, as discussed earlier, the option voted for was "leave the EU" not "leave it a little bit'. If we had voted remain would remainers have expected a partial leave, with maybe a ban on freedom of movement for example? Would the leavers had expected and campaigned for a compromise? I doubt it because that wasn't a option. So I'm really not sure what all the fuss is about. We voted to leave and that's what's happening. If we had voted stay we would have stayed in fully.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> However, many Brexiteers believe every EU supporter will come round to their way of thinking and get irritated when they don't.


No, most Brexiters are not trying to change anyone's mind. I neither know nor care much if any remainers change their minds. If they do, they do; if not, they don't. If remain had ''won'' I would not have changed my mind, I'd just have accepted it, and by the same token, I don't expect remainers to do so. I shall not be in the least bit ''irritated''. I leave that for the remainers.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Changing her stance is a nice way of putting it. But before the referendum she stated, unequivocally, that Brexit would be economically bad for Britain. Now, apparently, we are all going to be - unequivocally - better off.


I've never heard has say the latter. I have heard her say that she will get the best deal for the UK, which is all we can ask of her


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I've never heard has say the latter. I have heard her say that she will get the best deal for the UK, which is all we can ask of her


Perhaps you need to re read her speech from last year. From a Conservative site so no accusations of political bias please!

http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2016/04/theresa-mays-speech-on-brexit-full-text.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Again in your eyes it is ok for the EU to trade with China, USA, India, Australia, New Zealand etc but not the UK. Why?
> 
> I am sure the trade negotiators in the UK are able to strike trade deals with these countries you know and protect the UK's interests at the same time.


Tell you why. Because the bigger economy of those two gets the better deal.
This is why trading blocs, or corps etc exist in the first place


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps you need to re read her speech from last year. From a Conservative site so no accusations of political bias please!
> 
> http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2016/04/theresa-mays-speech-on-brexit-full-text.html


That doesn't address the point I made  so has no relevance


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> While I accept the point your trying to make, it doesn't really answer my question at how leaving the EU will guarantee the country will fail, while the vast majority of other countries outside the EU are not what I would consider 'failing'.
> 
> Or is it because its a Tory government in charge of Brexit?... Is that the main reason for the assumptions?


We know we could never get a better trade deal than we have now -Countries outside the EU are queueing up for a trade deal with the EU because its the most important trade bloc on the planet. If we have to pay tariffs it will be a catastrophe for many businesses , for the farming industry. We know the costs of leaving the EU are many & are going to be astronomical. Trade deals take years to negotiate. Basically we have voted to make ourselves poorer,- & not just financially.

This is an extreme right wing government we have now. This George Monbiot article is excellent on the subject Stuaz.
_
Th*e European Union is the worst choice - apart from the alternative *_

_*The EU is a festering cesspool. But it's a crystal spring compared with what the outers want to do - surrender Britain's sovereignty to the United States*_

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/european-union-eu-britain-sovereignty



samuelsmiles said:


> I think, maybe, we can all change our opinions at times.
> 
> The left must put Britain's EU withdrawal on the agenda. Owen Jones, Guardian, 2015.
> 
> "Progressives should be appalled by European Union's ruination of Greece. It's time to reclaim the Eurosceptic cause." Owen Jones
> 
> "Everything good about the EU is in retreat; everything bad is on the rampage," George Monbiot
> "the EU is being portrayed "with some truth, as a cruel, fanatical and stupid institution" Nick Cohen
> 
> Much of the left campaigned against entering the European Economic Community when Margaret Thatcher and the like campaigned for membership.


The difference is they were being honest about the failings of the EU - on that they haven't changed their minds, but they are well aware the alternative to the EU with a hard right government in power is far, far worse.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Bisbow said:


> You have no idea what she has up her sleeve any more than I do
> And if I where her I would not tell the likes of you what I was going to do as you would do your best to scupper it


Up in her sleeve ? More taxes perhaps?... On Qrops , non doms, to hit the expats first, the self-employed. ( oh shame, had to go back on this one and blamed Hammond, how could she know what was in manifesto?).

Rising taxes, rising prices, overhaul of workers rights....

She is representing Murdoch and others Brexit bankrollers.


----------



## cheekyscrip

What about Great Repeal Bill, giving " for now" power to.ministers over Parliament?

Thought Brexit was in the name of democracy?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I've never heard has say the latter. I have heard her say that she will get the best deal for the UK, which is all we can ask of her


So she's intending to limit the damage as best she can?

Fair enough. Except she has to stay within the limits of what the IDS / Rees-Mogg contingent will allow, even though she knows the economic cost will be greater. What a trooper she is.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I've never heard has say the latter. I have heard her say that she will get the best deal for the UK, which is all we can ask of her


I think it's very relevant actually, but it appears May can't do wrong in your eyes.

"The best possible...." is the best she can come up with? That simply isn't good enough, then she's prioritising immigration reduction over what's best for the country.

Voters were promised great things with Brexit, not to be worse off. The old Thatcher saying of, "Things will have to get worse before they get better" won't work for very long however hard Murdoch and co try to convince otherwise.

May and her like always fall at the hurdle sooner or later.


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> We know we could never get a better trade deal than we have now -Countries outside the EU are queueing up for a trade deal with the EU because its the most important trade bloc on the planet. If we have to pay tariffs it will be a catastrophe for many businesses , for the farming industry. We know the costs of leaving the EU are many & are going to be astronomical. Trade deals take years to negotiate. Basically we have voted to make ourselves poorer,- & not just financially.
> 
> This is an extreme right wing government we have now. This George Monbiot article is excellent on the subject Stuaz.
> _
> Th*e European Union is the worst choice - apart from the alternative *_
> 
> _*The EU is a festering cesspool. But it's a crystal spring compared with what the outers want to do - surrender Britain's sovereignty to the United States*_
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/european-union-eu-britain-sovereignty
> 
> The difference is they were being honest about the failings of the EU - on that they haven't changed their minds, but they are well aware the alternative to the EU with a hard right government in power is far, far worse.


I do wonder if there would less of an outrage against Brexit, if it was for example a labour government doing it. I think some people's judgement of conservatives political party clouds there views on it.

That said, what you are saying does not mean that the Uk will fail outside the trading bloc. Initially we may not get a deal we want but overtime and successive government both here and in other European countries treaties will be ratified and altered.

The UK is the first major economy to leave the EU so only time will tell what happens - good or bad.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> So the reporter of this newspaper can see into the future? Wow we have some great theorists out there who like predicting things that haven't happened yet and putting a bit of doom and gloom in there when *they don't actually know themselves what will happen*.


Reminds me of you,


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> I do wonder if there would less of an outrage against Brexit, if it was for example a labour government doing it. I think some people's judgement of conservatives political party clouds there views on it.
> 
> That said, what you are saying does not mean that the Uk will fail outside the trading bloc. Initially we may not get a deal we want but overtime and successive government both here and in other European countries treaties will be ratified and altered.
> 
> The UK is the first major economy to leave the EU so only time will tell what happens - good or bad.


This is right wing coup, a power grab - our NHS, our human rights, the environment have never been at greater risk. Any decent government would want us to be fully informed, not kept in the dark & lied to - this is a massive decision, but they don't want us to be informed. Why do you think that is?. To have any hope of succeeding outside the EU we'd need a progressive government. One which put social & environmental justice at the forefront.

Take a look at these. The UK imports a quarter of our food from the EU -

https://qz.com/716156/the-british-import-a-quarter-of-their-food-from-the-eu-and-thats-a-problem/

These are the average WTO tariffs for various food groups. Do you really trust a government who tells us no deal is perfectly ok?


----------



## KittenKong

Well, Brexiteers can't accuse the BBC of anti Brexit bias anymore.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> This is right wing coup, a power grab - our NHS, our human rights, the environment have never been at greater risk. Any decent government would want us to be fully informed, not kept in the dark & lied to - this is a massive decision, but they don't want us to be informed. Why do you think that is?. To have any hope of succeeding outside the EU we'd need a progressive government. One which put social & environmental justice at the forefront.
> 
> Take a look at these. The UK imports a quarter of our food from the EU -
> 
> https://qz.com/716156/the-british-import-a-quarter-of-their-food-from-the-eu-and-thats-a-problem/
> 
> These are the average WTO tariffs for various food groups. Do you really trust a government who tells us no deal is perfectly ok?


Absolutely agree. It is a power grab disguised as " liberation" in the name of " democracy", while it I exactly the opposite.

EU laws would not allow that power grab to happen!!!
EU was blamed for under invested part of UK, education, health care, immigration, while all the control was all the time in hands of government.

We as part of EU already had desks with the biggest economies: USA, China, we put effective sanctions on Russia .

People decided to the their rights, their health care, state education, their freedom of movement, their parliament and democracy to lying bunch of ultra right.

Those who chose it may well deserve the outcome, but what about those dragged along?

There are pf members who would benefit from this and surely they voted for Brexit in full awareness of the consequences.

Basically the rich will get the power.

Unchecked. The middle will be squeezed and the expats.

The poor....who cares really?

Along with environment protection and the rest.

Media will be Murdoch press and Murdoch TV, so it will be sunshine and we will always find someone to blame . ..
EU nationals that stayed behind?
EU for not giving us what we want?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Well, Brexiteers can't accuse the BBC of anti Brexit bias anymore.
> 
> View attachment 304450
> View attachment 304451


We don't need to blame the BBC you gave us enough coverage of yesterday's march in Edinburgh


----------



## Odin_cat

Bisbow said:


> Some people are irritated when the tories are in power
> Some people are irritated when labour is in power
> 
> The difference in they don't throw their toys out of the pram and demand a new election or call the other side nasty names
> 
> Any way your irritation is only a minor itch to be scratches and forgotten


But when the Tories gain power Labour don't just shut up for 5 years do they? ( although at the moment...)
In a functional democracy there has to be opposition, this includes to Brexit.
The tyranny of the majority is a dangerous thing.


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> This is right wing coup, a power grab - our NHS, our human rights, the environment have never been at greater risk. Any decent government would want us to be fully informed, not kept in the dark & lied to - this is a massive decision, but they don't want us to be informed. Why do you think that is?. To have any hope of succeeding outside the EU we'd need a progressive government. One which put social & environmental justice at the forefront.
> 
> Take a look at these. The UK imports a quarter of our food from the EU -
> 
> https://qz.com/716156/the-british-import-a-quarter-of-their-food-from-the-eu-and-thats-a-problem/
> 
> These are the average WTO tariffs for various food groups. Do you really trust a government who tells us no deal is perfectly ok?


So we are getting somewhere now @noushka05 

Essentially if the Government of today was Labour or 'a-nother' then you would feel better with us leaving the EU, not 100% happy of course, but more at ease?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I think it's very relevant actually,


This is what was said


Arnie83 said:


> Now, apparently, we are all going to be - unequivocally - better off.





rona said:


> I've never heard has say the latter. I have heard her say that she will get the best deal for the UK, which is all we can ask of her


How is it relevant?


KittenKong said:


> but it appears May can't do wrong in your eyes.


Where did you get that idea. As I said before, you really do need to take more notice of what's written and not just what's in your head


----------



## Gemmaa

A quick summary for anyone who hasn't been keeping up with this thread


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> This is what was said
> 
> How is it relevant?
> 
> Where did you get that idea. As I said before, you really do need to take more notice of what's written and not just what's in your head


I did say, "It appears you", not, "You do" which is quite different.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> So we are getting somewhere now @noushka05
> 
> Essentially if the Government of today was Labour or 'a-nother' then you would feel better with us leaving the EU, not 100% happy of course, but more at ease?


Absolutely not in my view, although I do think it'll be worse under the Tories, which have looked after their own since the party's inception. At least we'll still have an NHS under Labour, but I would never condone Brexit.

Believe me, if all this was happening under a Labour government I would equally be vocal against it.

Bit of a silly question anyway as, had the far right press not ruined Milliband's chances, the EU referendum would never have happened. Milliband specifically said he would not hold one under his premiership. One reason why I voted for him.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Bit of a silly question anyway as, has Murdoch and co not ruined Milliband's chances, the EU referendum would never have happened. Milliband specifically said he would not hold one under his premiership.


I think we can agree Corbyn is labours demise which is nothing to do with Murdoch. There is no effective opposition to the Conservatives at the moment and why Theresa May would prefer Corbyn as leader of the Labour party.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely not in my view, although I do think it'll be worse under the Tories, which have looked after their own since the party's inception. At least we'll still have an NHS under Labour, but I would never condone Brexit.
> 
> Believe me, if all this was happening under a Labour government I would equally be vocal against it.
> 
> Bit of a silly question anyway as, has Murdoch and co not ruined Milliband's chances, the EU referendum would never have happened. Milliband specifically said he would not hold one under his premiership. One reason why I voted for him.


You really do love your Murdoch conspiracies theory's don't you :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I think we can agree Corbyn is labours demise which is nothing to do with Murdoch. There is no effective opposition to the Conservatives at the moment and why Theresa May would prefer Corbyn as leader of the Labour party.


The far right press did play a part, but you're right at the end of the day.

Corbyn blew it over the 3LW matter without any help from others.

As a pro EU traditional Labour supporter I find that unforgivable.

I think the Liberal Democrats and possibly the Greens are set for considerable gains across England in the years to come at the expense of the Tories and Labour, especially in strong pro remain areas to start with.

After all they're the only anti Brexit parties UK wide.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> You really do love your Murdoch conspiracies theory's don't you :Hilarious


Perhaps it was unfair of me to single Murdoch out as he's not the only one. Post therefore edited.

Having said that, these aren't my own words.......






























Edited Email, courtesy of 38 Degrees (Petition against Murdoch being allowed complete ownership of Sky).


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Not my words.
> View attachment 304459
> View attachment 304460
> View attachment 304461
> View attachment 304462
> 
> 
> Edited Email, courtesy of 38 Degrees (Petition against Murdoch being allowed complete ownership of Sky).


Kinda just proving my point but ok.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> "The best possible...." is the best she can come up with? That simply isn't good enough, then she's prioritising immigration reduction over what's best for the country.


I don't like to say it, but I think it's actually more fundamental than a matter of immigration. I think it is primitive tribalism on the part of the Tory right wing.

The Referendum said we had to Leave. No details, no priorities; we simply had to cease to be members of the EU. That left open a large number of possibilities, from the Norway model - they are not members of the EU - to, let's say, the North Korea model - they are not members of anything!

The details have since been decided by the Tories behind closed doors, and they have all been justified by the oft-repeated "It's what the People voted for". Which of course is a convenient and patent lie. It's what the Tories want.

And what the IDS / Rees-Mogg Tories want is a situation where the British can not be told what to do by the non-British. It's got nothing to do with what the EU actually have been telling us, because hardly anyone can name an EU law that has adversely affected them. And it's got nothing to do with the democratic legitimacy of the EU, which is just another much-used excuse which doesn't stand up to scrutiny. They are both alternative ways of saying 'I simply don't want foreigners telling me what to do'.

"Take back control", and the hard Brexit we are heading towards is absolutely nothing more than the modern equivalent of ancient hominid tribes - our ancestors - facing off against one another, screaming and waving their fists, as a way of preserving their tribal integrity and safeguarding their continued existence, in exactly the same way chimpanzees do today.

Back then it was a useful evolutionary instinct.

These days it is a rather unedifying spectacle that we would do well to consign to history in order to safeguard the the continued existence of the whole human race .


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I also discovered on another site that The EU has ten times in percentage terms, misappropriate use of funds than the UK government. Even I was shocked at that one


I wonder, do you have a source for this where I can get some more details?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine, post: 1064814377, member: 1331813"] By the way, it's ''whinge'' not ''wing''...just saying. 

-------------------

Well spotted typo. I was on a moving train when I sent that message!

Thank you for pointing it out.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Calvine, post: 1064814377, member: 1331813"] By the way, it's ''whinge'' not ''wing''...just saying.
> 
> -------------------
> 
> Well spotted typo. I was on a moving train when I sent that message!
> 
> Thank you for pointing it out.


Sorry @KittenKong, seriously I am ...I'm a bit pedantic, grammar police and all that as you maybe guessed...you are forgiven! Old habits die hard!


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Again people's opinion.
> Sorry for being hard faced about this but I have my eyes wide open. Nobody knows what is actually going to happen as Brexit hasn't happened yet. Simple.


I dont think we laughing stocks I think we are planning on leaving a stale stuffy bent club, a gravy boat for many, eyes will be opened others will follow Mark my words


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Get behind Brexit and become a united country.


Still waiting for a reason to do so. Not simply.. I fancied gambling with my descendents future or "we won a vote".


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> I think it's very relevant actually, but it appears May can't do wrong in your eyes.
> 
> "The best possible...." is the best she can come up with? That simply isn't good enough, then she's prioritising immigration reduction over what's best for the country.
> 
> Voters were promised great things with Brexit, not to be worse off. The old Thatcher saying of, "Things will have to get worse before they get better" won't work for very long however hard Murdoch and co try to convince otherwise.
> 
> May and her like always fall at the hurdle sooner or later.


May was thrown in at the deep end, she has always played her cards close to her chest that one! The poker face may just pull it off, dont write her off.
And on that note I am truly amazed at the british people who want to see her fall flat on her face and come home with her tail between her legs! Isnt this the time when we need to get behind her? 
Shame on those of you who are wanting to see her fail!


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Still waiting for a reason to do so. Not simply.. I fancied gambling with my descendents future or "we won a vote".


We didnt like the future we saw for our descendents either, hence we voted out, it cuts two ways sunshine, exactly which part of that do you not understand?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Still waiting for a reason to do so. Not simply.. I fancied gambling with my descendents future or "we won a vote".


You had quite a few people to respond to and chose me above everyone else. Why?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> We didnt like the future we saw for our descendents either, hence we voted out, it cuts two ways sunshine, exactly which part of that do you not understand?


Ditto


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Mrs May was elected. We don't vote for party leaders but our local candidate. The political parties vote for their leaders.


Strange when her party didn't actually vote her in either.



stockwellcat said:


> Your choice but no one is listening to the tantrum's which is what they are. I notice the numbers of supporters for the remain side in these protests are dwindling hence the poor turn out yesterday.


Really, fact that a terrorist attack happened in london didn't have anything to do with it and one of the 2 groups called it off over concern police wouldn't be able to handle the numbers.



Dr Pepper said:


> Not really because, as discussed earlier, the option voted for was "leave the EU" not "leave it a little bit'.


Amazing how in this thread leavers have changed their tune about what it means then.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> We didnt like the future we saw for our descendents either, hence we voted out, it cuts two ways sunshine


One is based on reality rather than wishful thinking.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Strange when her party didn't actually vote her in either.
> 
> Really, fact that a terrorist attack happened in london didn't have anything to do with it and one of the 2 groups called it off over concern police wouldn't be able to handle the numbers.
> 
> Amazing how in this thread leavers have changed their tune about what it means then.


It didn't get called off the Edinburgh and London marches took place. We knew it did as we had coverage of the Edinburgh one on here and the London one made it on the news. Still very poor turnout and not 17.4+ million people who voted leave or 16+ million who voted remain. Support is dwindling for the remain side, don't you think people are getting behind Brexit regardless of how they voted and are sick of the protests  Nobody is taking any notice of the marches and protests.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> One is based on reality rather than wishful thinking.


Are we going to have 24 months of you repeating yourself, repeating yourself, repeating yourself.

Article 50 triggered in 3 days time. That's not wishful thinking as it is happening


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> One is based on reality rather than wishful thinking.


Depends on what ones vision is for the future doesnt it! I am guessing yours is oceans apart from mine!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said: ↑


> One is based on reality rather than wishful thinking.


You're just hoping that Brexit gets stopped, which is also wishful thinking. It won't be by the way.


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Amazing how in this thread leavers have changed their tune about what it means then.


Please, really please, show me where I've changed my tune. I, and all those that voted to leave the EU, VOTED TO LEAVE THE EU, it's only the few disfunctional remainers that insist we voted for something else. Heads up, we didn't. We understood what was on the ballot paper - "stay in" or "leave". It's ONLY a very few remainers that have some twisted idea there was another option.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Strange when her party didn't actually vote her in either.


You are actually wrong there. When the Conservatives had a leadership election when Cameron ran for the hills after standing down all Conservative members (this is the general public who support the Conservatives and are paid members) voted including MP's of the Conservative Party. She was elected by her party and won the leadership challenge just like Corbyn was in the Labour party. The conservative party won the 2015 elections and Theresa May as leader of the party is under no obligation to call an early General election until 2020.


----------



## 1290423

Just out of curiosity after wednesday once article fifty is triggered are those of you who were for remain going to be enthusiastic towards the exit or are you going to continue to put barriers in the way?


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## Milliepoochie

DT said:


> Just out of curiosity after wednesday once article fifty is triggered are those of you who were for remain going to be enthusiastic towards the exit or are you going to continue to put barriers in the way?


I for one will never be enthusiastic about Brexit given what it has put our family through.

I think comments like this really show how little some people understand about the real people who are being used as emotional pawn pieces in a huge political game.

The tears - The worry - The anger.

To have no security in a country where you chose to work / pay taxes / buy property and start your family.

To have to take out Private Health care insurance just because you've took a career break to care for children?

To have the long winded process of applying for PR and eventually citizenship to ensure your future is secure and you can continue to live without barriers.

Anyone who thinks all remain voters are just moaners fancy paying for these for us?

Sorry this thread adds no value any more.

I just hope brexit lives up to what people were sold - I really really do.


----------



## Jonescat

DT said:


> Just out of curiosity after wednesday once article fifty is triggered are those of you who were for remain going to be enthusiastic towards the exit or are you going to continue to put barriers in the way?


No I will not be enthusiastic. I will be doing whatever I can to make sure the things I care about are properly dealt with and not left to the back of the queue  I accepted the decision the day after, but I also appreciate just how much work it will take to decide what to do, negotiate it and then get it done. Some precious things will get forgotten, couldn't tell you what right now because it will depends on headlines, events, resource, whim and chance, but you can't replace all that legislation and regulation easily or quickly.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> Please, really please, show me where I've changed my tune. I, and all those that voted to leave the EU, VOTED TO LEAVE THE EU, it's only the few disfunctional remainers that insist we voted for something else. Heads up, we didn't. We understood what was on the ballot paper - "stay in" or "leave". It's ONLY a very few remainers that have some twisted idea there was another option.


You do appreciate that the Free Trade area, the Single Market and the Customs Union are different entities, don't you?



Bisbow said:


> Some people are irritated when the tories are in power
> Some people are irritated when labour is in power
> 
> The difference in they don't throw their toys out of the pram and demand a new election or call the other side nasty names


There is a slight difference here, though, in that we do get a regular go at electing a different Parliament. There's no option for un-leaving the EU, so those who stand to be disadvantaged by the exit are going to be more vocal as this is the only time they get to be heard.



Arnie83 said:


> I don't like to say it, but I think it's actually more fundamental than a matter of immigration. I think it is primitive tribalism on the part of the Tory right wing.
> 
> The Referendum said we had to Leave. No details, no priorities; we simply had to cease to be members of the EU. That left open a large number of possibilities, from the Norway model - they are not members of the EU - to, let's say, the North Korea model - they are not members of anything!
> 
> The details have since been decided by the Tories behind closed doors, and they have all been justified by the oft-repeated "It's what the People voted for". Which of course is a convenient and patent lie. It's what the Tories want.
> 
> And what the IDS / Rees-Mogg Tories want is a situation where the British can not be told what to do by the non-British. It's got nothing to do with what the EU actually have been telling us, because hardly anyone can name an EU law that has adversely affected them. And it's got nothing to do with the democratic legitimacy of the EU, which is just another much-used excuse which doesn't stand up to scrutiny. They are both alternative ways of saying 'I simply don't want foreigners telling me what to do'.
> 
> "Take back control", and the hard Brexit we are heading towards is absolutely nothing more than the modern equivalent of ancient hominid tribes - our ancestors - facing off against one another, screaming and waving their fists, as a way of preserving their tribal integrity and safeguarding their continued existence, in exactly the same way chimpanzees do today.
> 
> Back then it was a useful evolutionary instinct.
> 
> These days it is a rather unedifying spectacle that we would do well to consign to history in order to safeguard the the continued existence of the whole human race .


That, sir is one of the best and most insightful posts on the whole thread - and I've read them all! Have a virtual rep 

Although I think I would disagree that it's primative tribalism on behalf of the Tories, I think I'd take the interpretation that it's cynical manipulation of induced primative tribalism _by_ the Tory right wing...

Still, they'll come out of this squeaky clean no matter what happens. If things go well, they'll take all the credit, if it turns into a train wreck, then hey - they did the best they could with what the people voted for...


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat said:


> You are actually wrong there. When the Conservatives had a leadership election when Cameron ran for the hills after standing down* all Conservative members (this is the general public who support the Conservatives and are paid members) voted including MP's of the Conservative Party. She was elected by her party and won the leadership challenge just like Corbyn was in the Labour party. *The conservative party won the *2015* elections and Theresa May as leader of the party is under no obligation to call an early General election until 2020.


No, she was elected after Leadsom withdrew following the second ballot in which only conservative MPs vote. As May was the only candidate after Leadsom`s withdrawal there was no vote by Conservative party members. May received 60% (or thereabouts can`t remember exact %) in the second ballot therefore it may be correct to say she was the choice of the MPs but not that she was elected by her party as its members did not get to vote.


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Just out of curiosity after wednesday once article fifty is triggered are those of you who were for remain going to be enthusiastic towards the exit or are you going to continue to put barriers in the way?


The answer is of course No, to both of the options you suggest.

I have never been empowered to put barriers in the way of Brexit since the referendum produced the result it did.

But I have never been enthusiastic about it, and never will be.

I want to see the UK being a fully involved active member of a community larger than the island we happen, through pure chance, to inhabit, rather than one that feels more comfortable behind reinforced national boundaries and desperately calling itself 'global', one that refers to its future as 'outward looking' not because it has an inclusive world mindset but because it has retreated behind a supposed shield from behind which it can look.

I want one that looks to do what it can for all peoples, recognising our ages-long shared heritage, rather than one that starts this retreat from the rest by talking of "cards held close to our chest", getting "the best deal for Britain" in a competition with the EU 27, and whose main driver in all this is a primitive discomfort at the perceived loss of tribal supremacy.

You think I might suddenly, on Wednesday, abandon my principles and my hopes for a better world, and be enthusiastic about their demise? Think again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> No, she was elected after Leadsom withdrew following the second ballot in which only conservative MPs vote. As May was the only candidate after Leadsom`s withdrawal there was no vote by Conservative party members. May received 60% (or thereabouts can`t remember exact %) in the second ballot therefore it may be correct to say she was the choice of the MPs but not that she was elected by her party as its members did not get to vote.


As much as you don't like it and all the other remainers don't like it she was still elected by the party MP's. She is an elected member of Parliament either way you look at this.

It does sound as if the remainers are protesting because they don't like the fact the Conservatives are the party to take the UK out of the EU.


----------



## Jonescat

This is what I worry about most:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-39261204

selective quotes
"Thousands of civil servants to be mobilised and retasked, thousands of laws and regulations to be rewritten or rejected and thousands of people trained and employed to do the many things currently carried out by the European Union."

"Perhaps the greatest challenge the civil service has faced was its utter lack of preparation for the British people voting out in the referendum last June. They were expressly forbidden from drawing up any plans by David Cameron's administration and have been playing catch up ever since."

"Below them will be civil servants from all affected government departments, summoned in to work on specific "chapters" of the negotiations, on everything from fish to agriculture to financial services. They will be the team dealing with the European Commission negotiators on an almost daily basis."

"One minister told me: "This is the first big test to see if she can delegate. This is so big that No 10 cannot control it, they cannot be on top of all the detail."

"The National Audit Office says in a new report that, while 1,000 new roles have been created in the civil service to deal with Brexit, a third remain unfilled and most of the new appointees have simply been transferred from other parts of government."

"The Institute for Government warns there might be a need for further 15 separate Brexit Bills."

"And then there is also the process of creating new organisations that will fill the gaps in our national life left as the EU tide ebbs from our shores. Officials will need to set up new customs and immigration systems, neither of which will be simple or easy."

~This WILL go on for years.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> This is what I worry about most:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-39261204
> 
> selective quotes
> "Thousands of civil servants to be mobilised and retasked, thousands of laws and regulations to be rewritten or rejected and thousands of people trained and employed to do the many things currently carried out by the European Union."
> 
> "Perhaps the greatest challenge the civil service has faced was its utter lack of preparation for the British people voting out in the referendum last June. They were expressly forbidden from drawing up any plans by David Cameron's administration and have been playing catch up ever since."
> 
> "Below them will be civil servants from all affected government departments, summoned in to work on specific "chapters" of the negotiations, on everything from fish to agriculture to financial services. They will be the team dealing with the European Commission negotiators on an almost daily basis."
> 
> "One minister told me: "This is the first big test to see if she can delegate. This is so big that No 10 cannot control it, they cannot be on top of all the detail."
> 
> "The National Audit Office says in a new report that, while 1,000 new roles have been created in the civil service to deal with Brexit, a third remain unfilled and most of the new appointees have simply been transferred from other parts of government."
> 
> "The Institute for Government warns there might be a need for further 15 separate Brexit Bills."
> 
> "And then there is also the process of creating new organisations that will fill the gaps in our national life left as the EU tide ebbs from our shores. Officials will need to set up new customs and immigration systems, neither of which will be simple or easy."
> 
> ~This WILL go on for years.....


I think the news said 34+ new Government departments are to be setup this morning for which they have been recruiting for. They do have a huge task ahead but all worth it for Independence from the EU. The initial leaving stage will take two years to achieve but the rest of it eg repealing laws etc will take years after Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

"all worth it for Independence from the EU"

And there we have it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> "all worth it for Independence from the EU"
> 
> And there we have it.


Glad you agree


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> What about Great Repeal Bill, giving " for now" power to.ministers over Parliament?
> 
> Thought Brexit was in the name of democracy?


Anyone who doesn't find the Great repeal bill terrifying doesn't care about democracy.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Glad you agree


I couldn't possibly disagree more and I find it a disappointing but unsurprising confirmation of how far we still have left to go.


----------



## KittenKong

DT said:


> May was thrown in at the deep end, she has always played her cards close to her chest that one! The poker face may just pull it off, dont write her off.
> And on that note I am truly amazed at the british people who want to see her fall flat on her face and come home with her tail between her legs! Isnt this the time when we need to get behind her?
> Shame on those of you who are wanting to see her fail!


NO! NEVER!

Would you like it if I asked you to get behind Nicola Sturgeon? Exactly.

I know who I'm backing.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> NO! NEVER!
> 
> Would you like it if I asked you to get behind Nicola Sturgeon? Exactly.
> 
> *I know who I'm backing.*


and me and it's not TM


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> If you say so.
> 
> Lets say that last years boxing day hunts drew more people and it was cold that day


Boxing Day is also a Bank Holiday don't forget. Plus it's a "traditional" annual event, not something organised at short notice.



rona said:


> You really should read posts you know and then you may have some insight into why others voted out and what they actually think about the way it's being handled,
> 
> Maybe you should go and read my posts about immigrants already in this country to understand.
> 
> I will however say that I think Theresa is doing a great job on the whole and I certainly wouldn't want to be in her shoes for all the money in the EU
> 
> Honestly
> 
> May also thinks of us as European, why on earth wouldn't she?


Yes I do read your posts and, with respect I do find some of the things you say confusing from time to time such as your stance on immigration.

I find it difficult to understand how one minute you feel for EU citizens already in the UK then appear to suggest May can't do wrong.

You only have to look at the history of May's anti immigration stance since the time she became Home Secretary. Those, "Go home and face arrest" vans for example.

While discussing the recent terrorist attacks she could only describe the perpetrator as, "British Born". Is this really how May looks at people from ethnic minorities?

No, May sees her subjects as British, not European.

I'm no subject of hers I can tell you, nor do I refer myself to be British anymore.

Ironically, she can call me, "British born" if she wants!


----------



## KittenKong

Excellent article.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...50-jeopardises-60-years-of-unparalleled-peace


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> May is more interested in power and control from the way she's performed. The fact she's changed her stance from one side of the campaign to the other in the most extreme form bothers me. It's as extreme as if Farage became strongly pro EU overnight.
> 
> I find it irritating some compare her to Thatcher. I would compare her to Marie Le Penn myself.
> 
> *Oh, it'll be the remoaners' fault for not believing in Britain of course*.
> 
> It'll be funny in time if there's no Britain to believe in if the UK breaks up.


They'll never accept the blame & everyone knows they wont! Spotted this this morning on twitter (had to bleep out the rude words)


_When this Brexit sh** goes through, and it affects things these_
_ ******* like, you just know they won't accept that they caused it._


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> It does sound as if the remainers are protesting because they don't like the fact the Conservatives are the party to take the UK out of the EU.


 I think it's more to do with the fact that people have good memories and haven't yet forgotten how the Conservatives once sold the people out for personal gain before.

And this does include their own.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear, more Brexit woes surprise surprise.

Brexiteers will argue UK funding will be guaranteed until 2020, sounds a long way off but only a year post Brexit.

The honest and truthful Leave campaign didn't mention this did they.

Now May is still convinced she'll re-unite her glorious nation. It's not even April 1st yet!

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ted-for-brexit-may-be-hardest-hit-study-finds


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear, more Brexit woes surprise surprise.
> 
> Brexiteers will argue UK funding will be guaranteed until 2020, sounds a long way off but only a year post Brexit.
> 
> The honest and truthful Leave campaign didn't mention this did they.
> 
> Now May is still convinced she'll re-unite her glorious nation. It's not even April 1st yet!
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ted-for-brexit-may-be-hardest-hit-study-finds
> 
> View attachment 304528


There's the usual word again that makes all these scare stories meaningless "may", so use "may not" instead and it suddenly becomes a upbeat story about Brexit. When they have the facts and can use "will" then it's a story.


----------



## KittenKong

Come on though. Losing your EU citizenship might not bother you but it bothers me should I be deprived from remaining part of it.

How can that be positive? How can you attempt to instruct me, and people like me to be upbeat about what's coming?

Not implying yourself Dr Pepper but you'd think some Brexiteers think they've won a war by leaving the EU.

British Nationalism is not in my name. Never will be. Nor for many others.

Get over it!


----------



## KittenKong

I honestly had to double check the date when I saw this.

"March 27th Fool" would seem more appropriate. As would any day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39399390


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> You have no idea what she has up her sleeve any more than I do
> *And if I where her I would not tell the likes of you what I was going to do as you would do your best to scupper it*


Classic:Hilarious



cheekyscrip said:


> Absolutely agree. It is a power grab disguised as " liberation" in the name of " democracy", while it I exactly the opposite.
> 
> EU laws would not allow that power grab to happen!!!
> EU was blamed for under invested part of UK, education, health care, immigration, while all the control was all the time in hands of government.
> 
> We as part of EU already had desks with the biggest economies: USA, China, we put effective sanctions on Russia .
> 
> People decided to the their rights, their health care, state education, their freedom of movement, their parliament and democracy to lying bunch of ultra right.
> 
> Those who chose it may well deserve the outcome, but what about those dragged along?
> 
> There are pf members who would benefit from this and surely they voted for Brexit in full awareness of the consequences.
> 
> Basically the rich will get the power.
> 
> Unchecked. The middle will be squeezed and the expats.
> 
> The poor....who cares really?
> 
> Along with environment protection and the rest.
> 
> Media will be Murdoch press and Murdoch TV, so it will be sunshine and we will always find someone to blame . ..
> EU nationals that stayed behind?
> EU for not giving us what we want?


Totally. Just watch now as our public services, NHS & natural world disappear. The only beneficiaries of brexit will be a tiny percentage. The rest of us are screwed.



stuaz said:


> So we are getting somewhere now @noushka05
> 
> Essentially if the Government of today was Labour or 'a-nother' then you would feel better with us leaving the EU, not 100% happy of course, but more at ease?


If labour were in government we would never have been put in this position, would we!.

If you check out my posts at the beginning of this thread prior to the referendum, I looked objectively at the pros & cons of leaving the EU & that's what I would have done with any political party. My primary concern is and has always been doing the best for the future of our living world. I want to leave a habitable environment for nature & for future generations - there is no more important an issue imo. A hard right government would always be catastrophic for the living world, there's is an ideology of greed & nothing stands in the way of profit.



stuaz said:


> You really do love your Murdoch conspiracies theory's don't you :Hilarious


@KittenKong is bang on. Murdoch is at the heart of government. I think Murdoch has had 7 private meetings with May up to now. This Ian Hislop article is worth a read - https://theconversation.com/ian-his...4?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=twitterbutton


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> Classic:Hilarious
> 
> Totally. Just watch now as our public services, NHS & natural world disappear. The only beneficiaries of brexit will be a tiny percentage. The rest of us are screwed.
> 
> If labour were in government we would never have been put in this position, would we!.
> 
> If you check out my posts at the beginning of this thread prior to the referendum, I looked objectively at the pros & cons of leaving the EU & that's what I would have done with any political party. My primary concern is and has always been doing the best for the future of our living world. I want to leave a habitable environment for nature & for future generations - there is no more important an issue imo. A hard right government would always be catastrophic for the living world, there's is an ideology of greed & nothing stands in the way of profit.
> 
> @KittenKong is bang on. Murdoch is at the heart of government. I think Murdoch has had 7 private meetings with May up to now. This Ian Hislop article is worth a read - https://theconversation.com/ian-his...4?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=twitterbutton


Apologies if I missed your other posts, its been a very long thread 

Money makes the world go round though @noushka05 (Or perhaps should that be Oil?) ether way politicians both past, present and future have and will have outside influences, not much can be done about it though, its just how it all works. However in this connected world of ours media is far more diluted and traditional powerhouses of influences such as newspapers do not have the same influence they *may* have had in the past. (Even @KittenKong favorite newspaper The Sun ;-)).

The Media is controlled, no way around that but at the same time its not really something to put a tinfoil hat on about.


----------



## Honeys mum

Ukip: Britain should be able to send back 'beggars or criminals' from EU | Politics | The Guardian


----------



## rona

Well well well

This would help Scotland to go it alone
http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...coverable-oil-found-off-coast-scotland/27/03/

Not sure they will be allowed to go now!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Yes..Scotland and NI will be so delighted to be more united with more power to Westminster....
Obviously, not reason good enough to care...
If Scotland moves...I have strange feeling NI might just as well..
Hope England and Wales will stay well united....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Oooo...someone has twigged?









Read further down': The lowest income group was most optimistic now ut the most pessimistic?
And Corbyn went for the three line whip???
Meanwhile...you get the Brexit...but really?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit takeover started and Chinese are first of the mark ...









And this is how the tariffs will be like with EU...that would make Welsh farmers happy...


----------



## rona

Not quite, it's Hong Kong I believe.

You know, that place that we had as a colony until just 20 years ago and runs under a different system to China and works within the WTO


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Not quite, it's Hong Kong I believe.
> 
> You know, that place that we had as a colony until just 20 years ago and runs under a different system to China and works within the WTO


This the place that Chinese use to operate capitalism?
Not long ago I managed to cause a bit of a stir there... Lol.
But they should be used to tornadoes?
Though TM with Hammond put a stop to that now ...


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> Apologies if I missed your other posts, its been a very long thread
> 
> Money makes the world go round though @noushka05 (Or perhaps should that be Oil?) ether way politicians both past, present and future have and will have outside influences, not much can be done about it though, its just how it all works. However in this connected world of ours media is far more diluted and traditional powerhouses of influences such as newspapers do not have the same influence they *may* have had in the past. (Even @KittenKong favorite newspaper The Sun ;-)).
> 
> The Media is controlled, no way around that but at the same time its not really something to put a tinfoil hat on about.


Greed is destroying the world. We live on a finite planet, but this government doesn't even try to be sustainable, it is going all out to destroy as much as it can by cutting red tape & further deregulating big business - & enabling the filthy fracking industry. The right wing media barons own 80% of our media, they hold huge influence over this country & they all backed brexit. Just look at the reasons given for leaving the EU on here for example . We know austerity & government policies are the reason our society is breaking down - yet how many people believe immigrants are at the heart of the housing crisis & putting a great strain on the NHS & public services?

Murdoch is evil personified, he has corrupted our democracy & in other countries. His media empire stretches across the globe pumping out his propaganda. Fox news in the USA is watched by millions, they have no idea they are being brainwashed. Same in Australia. Murdoch may be unelected but he is one of the most powerful people on this planet & yes, extracting oil is another of his rackets. Google Genie oil & the Iraq war.

Be under no illusions the influence Murdoch holds over government. May rushed to meet him in New York. He sat in with talks between Gove & Trump. This is corruption at the very heart of government. It wont end well for us. We were far safer within the EU.

*
How Thatcher and Murdoch made their secret deal *

*In 1981, Mrs Thatcher needed a boost from the press. By supporting Rupert Murdoch's bid for the Times and Sunday Times, she made sure she got it. Harold Evans, who led an unsuccessful staff takeover bid, reveals a historic carve-*up

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-thatcher-and-rupert-murdoch-made-secret-deal


----------



## noushka05

Here we go.

*GeorgeMonbiot* Retweeted
*Miles King*‏@*MilesKing10* Mar 26

Gove attacks Habitats Directive calling for its abolition after Brexit. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-regulations-michael-gove-environment-drugs-a7649041.html… Gove has form here. https://anewnatureblog.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/miliband-and-truss-combine-to-declare-eu-best-for-climate-action-eureferendum/…


----------



## noushka05

Hope everyone's loaded.


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> Greed is destroying the world. We live on a finite planet, but this government doesn't even try to be sustainable, it is going all out to destroy as much as it can by cutting red tape & further deregulating big business - & enabling the filthy fracking industry. The right wing media barons own 80% of our media, they hold huge influence over this country & they all backed brexit. Just look at the reasons given for leaving the EU on here for example . We know austerity & government policies are the reason our society is breaking down - yet how many people believe immigrants are at the heart of the housing crisis & putting a great strain on the NHS & public services?
> 
> Murdoch is evil personified, he has corrupted our democracy & in other countries. His media empire stretches across the globe pumping out his propaganda. Fox news in the USA is watched by millions, they have no idea they are being brainwashed. Same in Australia. Murdoch may be unelected but he is one of the most powerful people on this planet & yes, extracting oil is another of his rackets. Google Genie oil & the Iraq war.
> 
> Be under no illusions the influence Murdoch holds over government. May rushed to meet him in New York. He sat in with talks between Gove & Trump. This is corruption at the very heart of government. It wont end well for us. We were far safer within the EU.
> 
> *
> How Thatcher and Murdoch made their secret deal *
> 
> *In 1981, Mrs Thatcher needed a boost from the press. By supporting Rupert Murdoch's bid for the Times and Sunday Times, she made sure she got it. Harold Evans, who led an unsuccessful staff takeover bid, reveals a historic carve-*up
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-thatcher-and-rupert-murdoch-made-secret-deal
> 
> View attachment 304583
> 
> 
> View attachment 304582


But the current government is not new with this, previous governments have been exactly the same with there attentive towards the media, whether they be labour or Tory. It make sense, for people in political power to pander towards the media (not just murdoch, all media). It will always be like this! Government is basically a means of back scratching.

As for Fox News, I can very much assure you that not all Americans believe it, and it's very often quoted as being a news channel for children or just for general hyping up of hysteria and for the most part not taken serious.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Fox news in the USA is watched by millions, they have no idea they are being brainwashed. Same in Australia.


Thank goodness we Brits are so much more intelligent then.

(Funny; I never had you pegged as a supremacist).


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> But the current government is not new with this, previous governments have been exactly the same with there attentive towards the media, whether they be labour or Tory. It make sense, for people in political power to pander towards the media (not just murdoch, all media). It will always be like this! Government is basically a means of back scratching.
> 
> As for Fox News, I can very much assure you that not all Americans believe it , and it's very often quoted as being a news channel for children or just for general hyping up of hysteria and for the most part not taken serious.


I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more. Media are supposed to hold government to account. The right wing media barons are threat to not only our country but in Murdoch's case the entire planet. I didn't say all Americans believe Fox news - but you only need to look on social media to see they have huge influence over masses of people - same with the gutter media in this country. Fox news muddies the waters on climate change like its owner & in the USA as over here people have no idea of the danger staring us in the face.



Satori said:


> Thank goodness we Brits are so much more intelligent then.
> 
> (Funny; I never had you pegged as a supremacist).


Well that's the first time anyone's had me down as one of thoseompus


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> https://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/news/top-10-healthiest-countries-in-the-world/
> 
> We are 5th healthiest in the world according to a study in the Lancet
> 
> Oh look, they reckon Sweden have more.........aren't they then in the top for healthier countries? Mmmm
> 
> http://www.bariatricnews.net/?q=node/1850
> "The countries performing the most number of procedures were Belgium, Sweden and France".
> 
> Apparently we do
> 
> Oh and in Germany there is difficulty getting the surgery, so god only knows how many that figure would be if it was the true figure of those waiting


Expect the life expectancy in this country to plummet now  Well no one on here can say they weren't warned.

_"Triggering of Article 50 will enable the Tories to do everything they ever
wanted: remove all our safeguards, our
NHS and public services"_

*Paul Lewis*‏@*paullewismoney*

Meanwhile the prospect of Brexit and restricted rights for
immigrants begin to turn off the tap of EU staff for NHS

*Lewis*‏@*paullewismoney* 23h23 hours ago

*Paul Lewis *Retweeted Lesley Dunlop

At the same time as EU nurses begin to fall in numbers
UK govt makes it harder to become a nurse here

@*paullewismoney* Training bursaries? Govt just ended the nursing ine. 25%drop in applications
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...lications-slump-after-nhs-bursaries-abolished

*ke*‏@*doctor_oxfor*

BREAKING. Right now, on-call psychiatrists told not a SINGLE
free adult mental health bed in England.
Only one private one in Harrogate.

*DavidGWrigley*

Heard from psychiatrist friend there are NO in patient acute psychiatric beds in whole of England.
Shocking political failure in our NHS












stockwellcat said:


> Damn right lie.
> We are only becoming divided because certain remainers won't accept Brexit. _Get behind Brexit and_ _become a united country_ .


Open your eyes @stockwellcat. The UK has never been more divided. And people who can see the looming catastrophe will never get behind brexit - they love their country too much to stand by & just watch it destroyed by the bunch of corrupt lunatics in government .


_"Get behind Brexit and become a united country"_









..


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> Hope everyone's loaded.
> 
> View attachment 304588


"Could"


----------



## Honeys mum

Dr Pepper said:


> "Could"


Totally agree, just another prediction.


----------



## Calvine

Honeys mum said:


> Ukip: Britain should be able to send back 'beggars or criminals' from EU | Politics | The Guardian


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36467725

You mean these gentlemen?


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Expect the life expectancy in this country to plummet now  Well no one on here can say they weren't warned.


That would help the treasury no end... and dwp, and NHS and the DOT and solve the housing crisis.. result!


----------



## Honeys mum

TOMORROW, MARCH 29th, IS BRITISH EU FREEDOM DAY

The day article 50 is triggered


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> "Could"


If you walk in the middle of the road you "Could" get hit by a car. That's why most people aren't daft enough to take the gamble.



Satori said:


> That would help the treasury no end... and dwp, and NHS and the DOT and solve the housing crisis.. result!


lol
I've no doubt that's the governments ultimate plan. Kill of the peasants - job done.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> TOMORROW, MARCH 29th, IS BRITISH EU FREEDOM DAY
> 
> The day article 50 is triggered


Freedom day? You do realise the government are grovelling to Trump??? https://medium.com/@SamuelMarcLowe/the-sovereignty-delusion-54e9c3ff210f#.jz0icx7r7

"The Sovereignty Delusion" 

It is therefore not a question of whether we will continue to broadly align ourselves with another entity's rules and regulations post-Brexit, it is a question of whose rules and regulations.

For all that has been said about TTIP - the besieged free trade agreement currently being negotiated by the EU and US - it can be understood in part as an attempt by the two superpowers to reconcile their regulatory differences, so as to guard against the rising influence of China and ensure so-called Western values continue to dominate the international trading system for the foreseeable future.

This reconciliation looks doomed to fail; the EU and US regulatory cultures are too distinct, and the politics too fraught. However, it does raise some
questions in the context of Brexit:

In the long-run, will the UK continue to align its regulation and approach with the EU, or will we see a gradual transatlantic pivot towards
wards the US?

Will the US seek to eke as many regulatory concessions from the UK as possible in any future free trade agreement, significantly shifting the global balance of power and increasing its leverage over the EU in international forums and future EU-US negotiations?
Will the EU seek to bind the UK as firmly as possible in any future UK-EU negotiations so as to guard against an erosion of international regulatory influence and power?
There are leaders, and there are followers. And when it comes to regulation, by sheer virtue of economic weight, or relative lack of it, the UK is very much the latter


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Freedom day? You do realise the government are grovelling to Trump?


No doubt, endless photos such as the one enclosed will now start to explain an awful lot.










'And this is how I expect the British Government to pucker up and kiss my 4r53!'​


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Freedom day? You do realise the government are grovelling to Trump??? https://medium.com/@SamuelMarcLowe/the-sovereignty-delusion-54e9c3ff210f#.jz0icx7r7


In your world maybe.
Article written by a man who has 293 followers on Twitter. Wow, is this one of your so called experts noush.?


----------



## Jesthar

Honeys mum said:


> In your world maybe.
> Article written by a man who has 293 followers on Twitter. Wow, is this one of your so called experts noush.?


If number of Twitter followers is an indication of someone's worthiness on any given topic, then Katy Perry for PM!!!  And the Kardashians for the Cabinet


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> No doubt, endless photos such as the one enclosed will now start to explain an awful lot.
> 
> Hi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'And this is how I expect the British Government to pucker up and kiss my 4r53!'​


Why wouldn't we play ball with the USA? Or don't you want trade deals there either? You'll see a whole lot more of what you call "arse kissing" as deals are negotiated around the world.

You may not like Mr Trump, but it's bloody stupidity to sour relations with a long term ally over what will be no more than a eight year presidency.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> I've no doubt that's the governments ultimate plan. Kill of the peasants - job done.


Long term that would be a rational policy objective. For now we do need people to do menial jobs so it is intelligently selfish to keep them at least minimally fed and healthy. The next wave of robotic automation however could reduce our reliance on the bottom of the pyramid substantially; it could be the biggest industrial revolution yet, extending into the bottom end of the service sector and further up the chain in processing industries. So, yes, a future with fewer, but higher calibre, people is one scenario to plan for (perhaps even aim for?).


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more. Media are supposed to hold government to account. The right wing media barons are threat to not only our country but in Murdoch's case the entire planet. I didn't say all Americans believe Fox news - but you only need to look on social media to see they have huge influence over masses of people - same with the gutter media in this country. Fox news muddies the waters on climate change like its owner & in the USA as over here people have no idea of the danger staring us in the face.


You may disagree but doesn't change the fact its true


----------



## Honeys mum

Jesthar said:


> If number of Twitter followers is an indication of someone's worthiness on any given topic, then Katy Perry for PM!!!  And the Kardashians for the Cabinet


I never said that it did, I was just pointing out that Samuel Lowe writes his articles on Twitter, I only know this because it qoutes that on his article. Sorry, but I would hardly class him as an expert.
Having never been on twitter, and have no intentions of doing so, I wouldn't know how many followers the people you mentioned have, and to be honest I'm not interested.
But thanks for the information.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> Why wouldn't we play ball with the USA? Or don't you want trade deals there either? You'll see a whole lot more of what you call "arse kissing" as deals are negotiated around the world.
> 
> You may not like Mr Trump, but it's bloody stupidity to sour relations with a long term ally over what be no more than a eight year presidency.


There is a big difference between 'playing ball' and 'arse kissing' - the former implies that each side has at least some nominal rules, the second that one side is definitely in control and the other has to take whatever poo they are given and be grateful.

Mr Trump has already made it unequivocally clear that any new trade deals he agrees to must be heavily biased towards the USA, so that the UK is likely to be on the receiving end of the second scenarin should not really be a surprise to anyone even now.

Hopefully, though, Mr Trump will only last eight months the way he is going


----------



## Jesthar

Honeys mum said:


> I never said that it did, I was just pointing out that Samuel Lowe writes his articles on Twitter, I only know this because it qoutes that on his article. Sorry, but I would hardley class him as an expert.
> *Having never been on twitter, and have no intentions of doing so, I wouldn't know how many followers the people you mentioned have, and to be honest I'm not interested. *
> But thanks for the information.


Nor me. GIYF


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> Why wouldn't we play ball with the USA? Or don't you want trade deals there either? You'll see a whole lot more of what you call "arse kissing" as deals are negotiated around the world.
> You may not like Mr Trump, but it's bloody stupidity to sour relations with a long term ally over what will be no more than a eight year presidency.


Just exactly where, in my last statement, does it say I disliked Trump? I believe he's the best sideshow the world has presented us with so far to date.:Smuggrin

However, America, in my opinion, has interests, it does not have friends and yet Britain blindly cosies up with it simply because she's looking for an identity which was lost when her empire crumbled into the dust.

If britain is truly seeking her independence, then she needs to throw off her American crutches.


----------



## KittenKong

Stockwellcat









Voice of desperation. We tried telling you Brexit won't unite the country and you can't force nearly half the population to get behind something they are totally against.

You can't unite a country by force.

GET OVER IT!

Don't forget this was less than a year ago...


----------



## Bisbow

Don't forget this was less than a year ago...

View attachment 304601
[/QUOTE]

As it has been pointed out to you before, but you choose to ignore, she may have wanted to stay in but as we voted to get out she is doing as we wish, not what she might want
That is not being a hypocrite, but you are for keep bringing it up

She is doing what the majority want and not running and sulking because it did not go the way she wanted, like some one else did

My quote button seems to be playing silly games but you know what I am getting at I'm sure


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Stockwellcat
> View attachment 304600
> 
> 
> Voice of desperation. We tried telling you Brexit won't unite the country and you can't force nearly half the population to get behind something they are totally against.
> 
> You can't unite a country by force.
> 
> GET OVER IT!
> 
> Don't forget this was less than a year ago...
> 
> View attachment 304601


Half the country against Brexit? Don't think so, maybe a small percentage of those that voted leave might be. 28% of those eligible to vote don't give a monkeys either way. That's a fair chunk of your "nearly half" gone for starters. Then with the dwindling number of people turning up to protest it tends to suggest the vast majority of those who voted remain have accepted it and happily getting on with life. The country isn't as divided as you think.


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant!
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> You may not like Mr Trump, but it's bloody stupidity to sour relations with a long term ally over what will be no more than a eight year presidency.


I think it would be bloody stupid to sacrifice links to the rest of Europe to become more dependent on the US. "We speak the same language", big deal!

The only thing they have done for us in recent years is plant their weapons of mass destruction on UK soil and get the UK involved in their wars under the disguise of a, "War on Terror". Heaven knows what Trump has lined up....

When did Brussels get the UK involved in a war?



Bisbow said:


> Don't forget this was less than a year ago...
> 
> View attachment 304601


But it is hypocritical to say one minute you're against something as it would be damaging the country, then say, having become PM it'll be a great thing for the country!

Makes you wonder if she's learned a script written for her. It does remind me of a "Sun" editorial the way she repetitively bleats on.



Dr Pepper said:


> Half the country against Brexit? Don't think so, maybe a small percentage of those that voted leave might be. 28% of those eligible to vote don't give a monkeys either way. That's a fair chunk of your "nearly half" gone for starters. Then with the dwindling number of people turning up to protest it tends to suggest the vast majority of those who voted remain have accepted it and happily getting on with life. The country isn't as divided as you think.


Yes, some people do become apathetic and accept what's coming to them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they agree though does it. And you are right about some not caring less either way.

I don't think 100,000 attendees in London is evidence of dwindling support, especially seeing some may have been put off attending following the recent terrorist attack.

If you think support for the EU is dwindling why is May so terrified of allowing a second Scottish Independence referendum? The more she continues to resist the stronger the appetite will become.

Then there's the upheaval in NI which all seemed to start thanks to the prospect of a hard border returning between North and the Republic. Something May herself warned about last year.

With all this happening within her beloved UK which is becoming more divided than ever, I dread to think how she'll get on with the 27 states when exit negotiations start!


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Makes you wonder if she's learned a script written for her. It does remind me of a "Sun" editorial the way she repetitively bleats on.
> 
> Why is May so terrified of allowing a second Scottish Independence referendum? The more she continues to resist the stronger the appetite will become


She is not "terrified" of a referendum. she is right now is not the right time
NS is just a trouble maker and stirrer, even a lot of Scots don't want one

And you are the one that keeps on about the Sun, and you keep repeating yourself as if you have learned the script
You must read it from cover to cover


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> She is not "terrified" of a referendum. she is right now is not the right time
> NS is just a trouble maker and stirrer, even a lot of Scots don't want one
> 
> And you are the one that keeps on about the Sun, and you keep repeating yourself as if you have learned the script
> You must read it from cover to cover


I see you're from Kent. How do you know what the Scottish people want?
With the SNP sitting in all but three seats in Scotland I think they know what's best for their country.

Nicola Sturgeon is the democratically elected leader of Scotland after all. She is acting on a manifesto pledge she was elected on. How does that make her a troublemaker in your opinion?

I'm sure you would have been furious had Cameron gone back on his pledge to hold the EU referendum.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I see you're from Kent. How do you know what the Scottish people want?


I know a Scottish woman very well who lives in West Sussex, she think NS is the bees knees........all her relations in Scotland think NS is a dangerous joke.

Not all Scots think she's great.
What actual percentage of the total vote did she get?

Cameron could keep his pledge, NS pledge depended on agreement from others


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Long term that would be a rational policy objective. For now we do need people to do menial jobs so it is intelligently selfish to keep them at least minimally fed and healthy. The next wave of robotic automation however could reduce our reliance on the bottom of the pyramid substantially; it could be the biggest industrial revolution yet, extending into the bottom end of the service sector and further up the chain in processing industries. So, yes, a future with fewer, but higher calibre, people is one scenario to plan for (perhaps even aim for?).


That's why we have this obese society isn't it? They are putting a load of crap stuff in cheap food to kill of the masses before they get too much retirement money


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> I see you're from Kent. How do you know what the Scottish people want?


We do have Scots in Kent you know and a near neighbour of mine thinks she is a pain in the backside and will cause Scotland more problems than Brexit ever will and the referendum was supposed to be "once in a lifetime" vote. They do not want another one
And you remainers keep saying the referendum was only an opinion poll, or is that only for the brexit one


----------



## Jesthar

Ya know, it's kind of ironic. The debate going on over Scotland leaving the UK is following pretty much exactly the same arguments and counter aguments as the debate over the UK leaving the EU, just with the names changed...


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I know a Scottish woman very well who lives in West Sussex, she think NS is the bees knees........all her relations in Scotland think NS is a dangerous joke.
> 
> Not all Scots think she's great.
> What actual percentage of the total vote did she get?
> 
> Cameron could keep his pledge, NS pledge depended on agreement from others


Of course not all Scottish people support Nicola Sturgeon in much the same way not every English person backs Brexit.

My point is, if Sturgeon went back on her word to call for a second referendum in the event of Scotland being forced out of the EU against its wishes (I think 62% voting Remain is decisive), it would have called for criticism.

People forget, Sturgeon has attempted compromise. It's May who will not.


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> Ya know, it's kind of ironic. The debate going on over Scotland leaving the UK is following pretty much exactly the same arguments and counter aguments as the debate over the UK leaving the EU, just with the names changed...


#
Except Scotland have already had their vote


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> (I think 62% voting Remain is decisive),


No, what percentage voted for Sturgeon not Brexit


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Of course not all Scottish people support Nicola Sturgeon in much the same way not every English person backs Brexit.
> 
> People forget, Sturgeon has attempted compromise. It's May who will not.


No, she attempted bullying and was batted down as she should be


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> #
> Except Scotland have already had their vote


And I get accused of not listening !!!

And to answer your question on Sturgeon I don't know, only that three areas of Scotland didn't elect the SNP.

For that matter you can use the same argument re the election of Cameron. What overall percentage actually voted for him, not that it matters now.

Of course they could be supporters from other parties who voted Remain. Didn't Scottish Tory Ruth Davidson back Remain for example?

I'm sure some SNP supporters would have voted leave too.


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> #
> Except Scotland have already had their vote


Quite a clever and cynical move by Wesminster that, don't you think - get the Scottish referendum out the way _before_ the big one when everything might change and your chance of getting the Scots to vote to stay in the UK might go own the proverbial, given that they are known to be pro-Europe


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> #
> Except Scotland have already had their vote


Yes. They were told if they want to stay in EU they must stay in UK.

Else get blocked.

Do I see a game changer?

Had they been duped???


----------



## cheekyscrip

Meanwhile:









Is it that rats are deserting the ship already?
He mentioned Titanic!!!

And cosy job in America....

;D

Very , very funny. It was just a big joke folks...


----------



## KittenKong

Meanwhile too....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39417715


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> And to answer your question on Sturgeon I don't know, only that three areas of Scotland didn't elect the SNP.
> 
> For that matter you can use the same argument re the election of Cameron. What overall percentage actually voted for him, not that it matters now.


Was you that raised the issue of Scottish people and Sturgeon, not I, I was just trying to get you to give the facts rather than your opinion tis all


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> Quite a clever and cynical move by Wesminster that, don't you think - get the Scottish referendum out the way _before_ the big one when everything might change and your chance of getting the Scots to vote to stay in the UK might go own the proverbial, given that they are known to be pro-Europe


As I've said before, the Scottish government and the Scottish people were well aware that there was going to be an EU referendum when they decided to go ahead with theirs. Why should all UK tax payers have to pay for another because of the Scottish governments mishandling of their own referendum timing


----------



## rona

Oooo I feel all light and frivolous..........tomorrow the process actually starts :Happy :Happy :Happy :Singing


----------



## Honeys mum

The latest news.
Scottish Parliament backs referendum call - BBC News

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39422747


----------



## rona

Honeys mum said:


> The latest news.
> Scottish Parliament backs referendum call - BBC News


That was actually a lot closer than I thought it would be. Just goes to show that she hasn't quite the backing that been made out


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> That was actually a lot closer than I thought it would be. Just goes to show that she hasn't quite the backing that been made out


More than the difference between the 52% leave and 48% remain vote though isn't it.

Well done Scottish Parliament.

We're going to Scotland tomorrow!


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> As I've said before, the Scottish government and the Scottish people were well aware that there was going to be an EU referendum when they decided to go ahead with theirs. Why should all UK tax payers have to pay for another because of the Scottish governments mishandling of their own referendum timing


Not exactly as in 2014 the coalition were in power. The chances of a EU referendum depended on the Tories winning the 2015 General Election outright.

They weren't expected to do so but they did.

Cameron was convinced he would win that referendum. He didn't.

The SNP manifesto they were elected on mentioned the possibility of calling for a second Independence Referendum in the event of Scotland being taken out of the EU against its wishes.

Sturgeon has given May every opportunity to allow them a say. May has refused.

What else can Sturgeon do? She has my full support.

Soon May will be fighting with the NI administration then possibly the Welsh in the event of them losing significant EU funding.

This is before negotiations with the 27 member states.

Now Farage himself admits Brexit could be a disaster.

What does that tell you Brexiteers?


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> More than the difference between the 52% leave and 48% remain vote though isn't it.
> 
> Well done Scottish Parliament.
> 
> We're going to Scotland tomorrow!


TM can't really say no, they vote they want a referendum so they should have it.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Tories winning the 2015 General Election outright.


And that election wasn't a foregone conclusion how?

Labour had put in a backstabbing leader and the Liberals had lied and lied and lied


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> What else can Sturgeon do? She has my full support.


I'm sure she's very happy about that, but you aren't Scottish so according to her you don't count 

A bit like you say our government aren't taking Europeans into consideration. Can't have it both way yer know


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> More than the difference between the 52% leave and 48% remain vote though isn't it.


And the relevance?


----------



## rona

I see petrol has gone down another 2p today


----------



## Bisbow

Did you see NS told to "Shut up" by a member of her own government, don't know her name but well done her
NS does not speak for all her country whatever she says


----------



## rona

Bisbow said:


> Did you see NS told to "Shut up" by a member of her own government, don't know her name but well done her
> NS does not speak for all her country whatever she says


No I didn't, how did she react?


----------



## Bisbow

rona said:


> No I didn't, how did she react?


Shut up she did, to shocked to do much else I think


----------



## rona

Bisbow said:


> Shut up she did, to shocked to do much else I think


That was Ruth Davidson, she's great


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I'm sure she's very happy about that, but you aren't Scottish so according to her you don't count


Yes, I'm English, just, being born in the border county of Northumberland but I don't count as far as May is concerned either, being one of the 48% so a good try.

The SNP do welcome supporters outside Scotland however and our next house move will definitely be to Scotland not far from the English border as that's a reasonable commuting distance for work.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I'm English, just, being born in the border county of Northumberland but I don't count as far as May is concerned either, being one of the 48% so a good try.
> 
> The SNP do welcome supporters outside Scotland however and our next house move will definitely be to Scotland not far from the English border as that's a reasonable commuting distance for work.


Think if Gibraltar is given to Spain we might be neighbours....


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Labour had put in a backstabbing leader and the Liberals had lied and lied and lied


I agree with you, don't be shocked(!)

I would have preferred David Milliband over Ed of course.

The Lib Dems have certainly risen up against everyone's expectations under Tim Fallon following the disaster of the Clegg years and the 2015 General Election results.

I can see them making considerable gains at the expense of the Tories and Labour in the years to come.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> Did you see NS told to "Shut up" by a member of her own government, don't know her name but well done her
> *NS does not speak for all her country whatever she says*


TM doesn't speak all for the UK either.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I agree with you, don't be shocked(!)
> 
> I would have preferred David Milliband over Ed of course.
> 
> The Lib Dems have certainly risen up against everyone's expectations under Tim Fallon following the disaster of the Clegg years and the 2015 General Election results.
> 
> I can see them making considerable gains at the expense of the Tories and Labour in the years to come.


Same here. Labour lost their way and voters when they went for weirdo Ed.
He can be very good man, up close, but came across as really quite odd ...not appealing at all.
Corbyn forcing MPs to back Brexit?

What a moron ( apologies to his supporters), he exterminated what was left of the left.

After Clegg euthanized LibDems...

I want to vote for SNP. Or at least the Greens.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I see you're from Kent. How do you know what the Scottish people want?


Your _Best Mate_ leashedForLife is from much further away than Kent but appears to know what they want!!


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Brilliant!
> http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/
> View attachment 304608
> View attachment 304609


The Daily Mash? Whatever next... Viz?


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Now Farage himself admits Brexit could be a disaster.


Please tell us when he said that. Because on This Morning Britain on ITV he said the E.U. was a disaster, not Brexit.


----------



## Bisbow

Happy Paws said:


> TM doesn't speak all for the UK either.


No. she does nor but I don't recall anyone yelling at her to shut up in a debate, at least not that I know of
I could be mistaken of course and I admit I could be, not like some who never admit mistakes


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> The Daily Mash? Whatever next... Viz?


yep. and the news story under that one was
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ll-living-in-ed-sheerans-dream-20170328124943
*"Scientists confirm we are all living in Ed Sheeran's dream"*

real quality news


----------



## rona

http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/scottish-...|Facebook|FarmersWeekly|sf66234083|sf66234083

Mmm, so the EU are reducing payments and the Scottish government want the UK government to make up the difference...........how does that work when they are independent then?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well at 12:30pm tomorrow Theresa May is giving a speech in Parliament at the same time the UK ambassador to the EU is handing the EU a letter to trigger Article 50.

Wow what I voted for is actually happening at last. I will be in transit to my dad's so will miss the speech but a friend of mine is kindly doing a WhatsApp to keep me informed.


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> not like some who never admit mistakes


Maybe they should take a leaf out of Jose Mourinho's book and change their names to ''The Special Ones''!


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Your _Best Mate_ leashedForLife is from much further away than Kent but appears to know what they want!!


LFL is going through her own nightmare with Trump as president. There's a lot in common, Trump backing Brexit and May's own politics being remarkably similar to Trump's.....



rona said:


> yep. and the news story under that one was
> http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ll-living-in-ed-sheerans-dream-20170328124943
> *"Scientists confirm we are all living in Ed Sheeran's dream"*
> 
> real quality news


Well, most Sun readers would argue they print quality news. The Sun tells them so they're right of course.

Anyone remember, "Freddie Starr ate my hamster" in The Sun?

The Mash is clearly satire, doesn't pretend to be anything else.



rona said:


> http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/scottish-...|Facebook|FarmersWeekly|sf66234083|sf66234083
> 
> Mmm, so the EU are reducing payments and the Scottish government want the UK government to make up the difference...........how does that work when they are independent then?


Scotland aren't independent yet. For that matter the UK remains a fully paid member of the EU at present.

The EU 27 states are more likely to listen to Sturgeon than May.

May's, "We're British and you need us more than we need you" attitude won't go down well at all.

They'll put May in her place and I can't wait for them to do so.


----------



## KittenKong

Still not quite April Fool but it's getting closer.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-britons-to-unite-as-she-triggers-article-50

















Hilarious! These demands will have to opposite effect.

These are not my words below but are absolutely spot on (courtesy of the Guardian comments section)


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> Hilarious! These demands will have to opposite effect.
> 
> These are not my words below but are absolutely spot on (courtesy of the Guardian comments section)
> View attachment 304649


*sigh* The woman clearly has no grasp of even _basic _psychology. You can no more command people to be voluntarily united than you can command them to be in love. Both are things that must be inspired, not ordered.

Very clumsily done, and I forsee an McAuliffe style response from many.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Saw this on telly this morning 








The countdown is on.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> No doubt, endless photos such as the one enclosed will now start to explain an awful lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'And this is how I expect the British Government to pucker up and kiss my 4r53!'​


And they're certainly doing plenty ass kissing.

Did you hear the porkie Trump told about the UK spying on him? HE blatantly lied. So what does May do? Send Boris Johnson dashing over to the US to grovel at Trumps feet?? WTH is that about












Jesthar said:


> If number of Twitter followers is an indication of someone's worthiness on any given topic, then Katy Perry for PM!!!  And the Kardashians for the Cabinet


LOL

I'm baffled why academics don't have masses of followers like celebrities do


----------



## Bisbow

What a great day
Not only starting the ball rolling to leave the corrupt EU but it is also my grand daughters 21st birthday
She is delighted TM decided to start the process today, s day to remember for her

And before you remainers start saying it is the beginning of the end she is looking forward to a better, happier future for herself and her friends

I am going to spend the day with my family celebrating on two fronts
I expect when I return to read lots of doom and gloom fro the remainers but nothing can spoil the day for me

At long last the wheels are moving towards a better future for all


----------



## noushka05

[



Satori said:


> Long term that would be a rational policy objective. For now we do need people to do menial jobs so it is intelligently selfish to keep them at least minimally fed and healthy. The next wave of robotic automation however could reduce our reliance on the bottom of the pyramid substantially; it could be the biggest industrial revolution yet, extending into the bottom end of the service sector and further up the chain in processing industries. So, yes, a future with fewer, but higher calibre, people is one scenario to plan for (perhaps even aim for?).


A Randian dystopia you mean 

I'm starting to feel like we're already living in the Hunger Games 



stuaz said:


> You may disagree but doesn't change the fact its true


Murdoch wields great power as Kittenkong keeps saying - will soon he & the other media moguls who have been pushing for brexit for many years will have even greater power when we leave the EU. So much for those faceless bureucrats in Brussels, hey

If Murdoch gets full control of Sky we will have our own Fox news.

(Ed Milibands statement on Murdochs bid for Sky)












Honeys mum said:


> I never said that it did, I was just pointing out that Samuel Lowe writes his articles on Twitter, I only know this because it qoutes that on his article. Sorry, but I would hardly class him as an expert.
> Having never been on twitter, and have no intentions of doing so, I wouldn't know how many followers the people you mentioned have, and to be honest I'm not interested.
> But thanks for the information.


As it happens I had never heard of Samual Lowe - I only noticed the article because it is being shared by people I know are classed as experts in their field.
One of them being Miles King who Rona also confirmed is an expert  (Unless she was feeding her confirmation bias & hes only an expert when he prints something she agrees with)

*Miles King*‏@*MilesKing10* Mar 27

"The Sovereignty Delusion" @*SamuelMarcLowe* points out the UK will have to align itself with the EU or US on trade


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> View attachment 304654


Is that a Banksy I see before me, or a fake designed to stir an already bubbling pot?

In all honesty I believe this world, as the the ordinary man and woman once knew it, has almost gone. Government, with all its trickery and treachery, gets whatever it wants, power over the people.....and let's face it, this world is all about power and who wields the most. They're all in it together and you and I are just pawns on their chessboard.
The UK is slowly evolving into a little USA and the little people will just have to be very careful of where the giants are putting their feet in future.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Is that a Banksy I see before me, or a fake designed to stir an already bubbling pot?
> 
> In all honesty I believe this world, as the the ordinary man and woman once knew it, has almost gone. Government, with all its trickery and treachery, gets whatever it wants, power over the people.....and let's face it, this world is all about power and who wields the most. They're all in it together and you and I are just pawns on their chessboard.
> The UK is slowly evolving into a little USA and the little people will just have to be very careful of where the giants are putting their feet in future.


Yes I'm pretty sure that's a Banksy Zaros. He has a very strong social conscience doesn't he?

I totally agree. We're witnessing the end game for us now. The worst amongst us have gained control.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Now Farage himself admits Brexit could be a disaster.





Honeys mum said:


> Please tell us when he said that. Because on This Morning Britain on ITV he said the E.U. was a disaster, not Brexit.


Once again KittenKong, please are you going to tell us when N.F.said that.?


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Still not quite April Fool but it's getting closer.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-britons-to-unite-as-she-triggers-article-50
> 
> View attachment 304646
> View attachment 304647
> 
> 
> Hilarious! These demands will have to opposite effect.
> 
> These are not my words below but are absolutely spot on (courtesy of the Guardian comments section)
> View attachment 304649


Have you attached the right article? For the life of me I can't see any demands, not a one.

What I did notice though was The Guardian is under the illusion there was a referendum to join the EU at some point (they don't say when) must have missed that, unless they are confused by what was voted for in 1975.


----------



## KittenKong

Another response to May's demand of unity


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> No. she does nor but I don't recall anyone yelling at her to shut up in a debate, at least not that I know of
> I could be mistaken of course and I admit I could be, not like some who never admit mistakes


I don't think anyone told Nicola Sturgeon to shut up, did they? I saw that obnoxiously rude Tory, Ruth Davidson, tell her to sit down.

Talking of Ruth, did you hear that time she said -

'The conservatives are now a major force in Scotland" ?


----------



## 1290423

Well! Todays the day, ok it might take some,tine to complete but at least they are firing the starting gun!


----------



## KittenKong

Ahem.... This wasn't the "unity" May had in mind. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ine-peter-mandelson-vince-cable-a7654896.html
















May at her desk signing papers in front of the Union flag.

Remind you of anyone (ie Trump)?


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> I don't think anyone told Nicola Sturgeon to shut up, did they? I saw that obnoxiously rude Tory, Ruth Davidson, tell her to sit down.
> 
> Talking of Ruth, did you hear that time she said -
> 
> 'The conservatives are now a major force in Scotland" ?


Nicola Sturgeon is touring Perthshire in the First Minister's chauffeur driven car. Suddenly a cow jumps out into the road. They hit it full on and the car comes to a stop. Nicola in her usual jaunty manner, says to the chauffeur : " You get out and check - you were driving." The chauffeur gets out, checks and reports that the animal is dead. " You were driving, go and tell the farmer," says Nicola, I can't afford to be blamed for anything. The chauffeur walks up the drive to the farmhouse and returns five hours later totally plastered, his hair ruffled and with a big grin on his face. " My God, what happened to you ?" asks Nicola. The chauffeur replies : " When I got there, the farmer opened his best bottle of malt whisky, the wife gave me a slap up meal and the daughter made love to me." " What on earth did you say?" asks Nicola. I knocked on the door and when it was answered, I said to them, I'm Nicola Sturgeon's chauffeur and I've just killed the cow."


----------



## Honeys mum

May SIGNS OFF on Brexit: PM vows to fight 'FIERCE' battle with EU | Politics | News | Express.co.uk
The first stage has begun, weve made a start.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> What a great day
> Not only starting the ball rolling to leave the corrupt EU but it is also my grand daughters 21st birthday
> She is delighted TM decided to start the process today, s day to remember for her
> 
> And before you remainers start saying it is the beginning of the end she is looking forward to a better, happier future for herself and her friends
> 
> I am going to spend the day with my family celebrating on two fronts
> I expect when I return to read lots of doom and gloom fro the remainers but nothing can spoil the day for me
> 
> At long last the wheels are moving towards a better future for all


Maybe you can ask her then for reasoning as you are unable to provide anything other than wishful thinking. What will make it better which is based on facts?

David Davis recently said immigration will go up after brexit. At least we will have control. Hillarious considering the government already had control. With EU immigrants the government also had control but never used the tools available.


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> May SIGNS OFF on Brexit: PM vows to fight 'FIERCE' battle with EU | Politics | News | Express.co.uk
> The first stage has begun, weve made a start.


Wv
We've had a long wait, but they do say good things are worth waiting for x


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Maybe you can ask her then for reasoning as you are unable to provide anything other than wishful thinking. What will make it better which is based on facts?


Maybe you should practise what you preach


----------



## KittenKong

Extract from May's orders, sorry speech









Or else?

I find that tone quite threatening.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Extract from May's orders, sorry speech
> View attachment 304671
> 
> 
> Or else?
> 
> I find that tone quite threatening.


Have you a persecution complex?


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Maybe you should practise what you preach


Maybe but unfortunately I can't find reasoning for leaving which are based on facts. Otherwise I would 

As for staying, maybe you forgot:



Goblin said:


> Done so lots of times on this forum and information based on facts. Let's start with:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
> 
> 
> 
> Now DT, your turn.
Click to expand...

Interestingly you never provided anything in response.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Have you a persecution complex?


No, but the fact not many can see what's happening is very worrying.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Another response to May's demand of unity
> View attachment 304665


Shameful. Welcome to hard right tory Britain.

Seen this? The government has denied the leader of the Ugandan Green party a visa to attend a conference because he's *too poor*:


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Maybe but unfortunately I can't find reasoning for leaving which are based on facts. Otherwise I would
> 
> As for staying, maybe you forgot:
> 
> Interestingly you never provided anything in response.


HOW LOUD TO I HAVE TO SHOUT to get it through you thick skull that neither I nor anyone else has to supply any data to you or anyone else our reasons for wanting to leave the EU! You, and others can supply whatever information you like backed up by whomever you choose along with your so called expert views, I for one am not interested, I really don't care, and truth of the matter is irreverent how qualified these so called experts are no one really knows ! I wanted out, we voted out, and we are getting out, that's good enough for me and I don't mind betting I'm not alone either!
As for the consequences, time will tell but at least then it will be FACT rather then speculation!
I seriously have finished replying to you, you remind me of a scratched record!


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Extract from May's orders, sorry speech
> View attachment 304671
> 
> 
> Or else?
> 
> I find that tone quite threatening.


Really?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> No, but the fact not many can see what's happening is very worrying.


I see a woman dropped into a very difficult job by her former boss, taking up the mantel and doing the best she can for our country while working under great pressure from those that want this country to fail as shown by a previous statement of yours.



KittenKong said:


> The EU 27 states are more likely to listen to Sturgeon than May.
> 
> They'll put May in her place and I can't wait for them to do so..


Thank goodness such a strong woman has stepped into the job


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I see a woman dropped into a very difficult job by her former boss, taking up the mantel and doing the best she can for our country while working under great pressure from those that want this country to fail as shown by a previous statement of yours.
> 
> Thank goodness such a strong woman has stepped into the job


I see the exact opposite. A tyrant who believes she can control others through intimidation, not by leading by example or showing respect. We've all had bosses like this at some time in our lives.

Strong woman? Hardly! Bullies are pathetic people.

And bullies always discover something they never thought would happen. They discover someone who's more a bully that she is, then experience being bullied themselves.

Thank God Nicola Sturgeon is standing up to her. Now, she's a strong woman I look up to.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I see a woman dropped into a very difficult job by her former boss, taking up the mantel and doing the best she can for our country while working under great pressure from those that want this country to fail as shown by a previous statement of yours.
> 
> Thank goodness such a strong woman has stepped into the job


Shes putting the hard right in her party before the best interests of our country. She is disgusting, history wont be kind to her.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> I see the exact opposite. A tyrant who believes she can control others through intimidation, not by leading by example or showing respect. We've all had bosses like this at some time in our lives.
> 
> Strong woman? Hardly! Bullies are pathetic people.
> 
> And bullies always discover something they never thought would happen. They discover someone who's more a bully that she is, then experience being bullied themselves.
> 
> Thank God Nicola Sturgeon is standing up to her. Now, she's a strong woman I look up to.


Seriously? If you think TM is a tyrant and a bully you should have been a nurse in the 70's when ward sisters were still powerful and respected and made junior doctors and nurses quake in their boots. How is it a strong woman gets labelled as a bully yet men rarely are? On what basis are you calling her a tyrant? Because she is implementing a policy that you don't happen to agree with does not make her a tyrant.

*ty·rant*

*1. *An extremely oppressive, unjust, or cruel ruler.
*2. *An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions, especially one who seized power illegally.
*3. *An oppressive, harsh, arbitrary person:


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Shes putting the hard right in her party before the best interests of our country. She is disgusting, history wont be kind to her.


Neither will Scotland, NI nor the Welsh in time, let alone opponents to Brexit in England.

She'll also discover most in the 27 EU member states won't be kind to her either.

The only political friend she'll have left will be Donald Trump. She'll have to be very careful not to upset him and do everything he says.

As we've seen with past PMs.......


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *ty·rant*
> 
> *1. *An extremely oppressive, unjust, or cruel ruler.
> *2. *An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions, especially one who seized power illegally.
> *3. *An oppressive, harsh, arbitrary person:


This has described May perfectly! Those blind to the "Joy" of Brexit won't see it yet.

No, I don't call her a tyrant for implementing a policy I don't agree with.

It's the way she's doing it, bleating out orders the way she does without the slightest bit of consideration, nor attempt to reassure those who oppose Brexit, even though she expressed concerns herself only last year.

Like Trump's "President for all Americans" speech, she believes she represents every single person in the UK, using words like, "Will" and "Must".

She could, for arguments sake say the same thing about Foxhunting. "It's a British tradition you WILL agree with".

May doesn't represent me, nor many others and never will do.

Like you I've had my fair share of nasty unpleasant "superiors" over the years, both male and female.

I certainly wasn't singling women out as being bullies. Hitler, Amin, Robert Mugabe (excuse spelling), Trump and Putin as examples certainly fit in to that category. They were/are all male!


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Neither will Scotland, NI nor the Welsh in time, let alone opponents to Brexit in England.
> 
> .
> 
> The only political friend she'll have left will be Donald Trump. She'll have to be very careful not to upset him and do everything he says.


When the chips are down Is there really such a thing a 'friends' in politics?
It's always come over to me a case of you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours followed by the bleats of many sheep!
Think we need someone with the strength and commitment to be prepared to stand alone if need be!


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> HOW LOUD TO I HAVE TO SHOUT to get it through you thick skull that neither I nor anyone else has to supply any data to you or anyone else our reasons for wanting to leave the EU!


The defence when you haven't one. This the reasoning behind May and why people should "unite" behind brexit. Says it all doesn't it. So much for the future.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> This has described May perfectly! Those blind to the "Joy" of Brexit won't see it yet.
> 
> No, I don't call her a tyrant for implementing a policy I don't agree with.
> *
> It's the way she's doing it, bleating out orders the way she does without the slightest bit of consideration, nor attempt to reassure those who oppose Brexit, even though she expressed concerns herself only last year.*
> 
> Like Trump's "President for all Americans" speech, she believes she represents every single person in the UK, using words like, "Will" and "Must".
> 
> She could, for arguments sake say the same thing about Foxhunting. "It's a British tradition you WILL agree with".
> 
> May doesn't represent me, nor many others and never will do.
> 
> Like you I've had my fair share of nasty unpleasant "superiors" over the years, both male and female.
> 
> I certainly wasn't singling women out as being bullies. Hitler, Amin, Robert Mugabe (excuse spelling), Trump and Putin as examples certainly fit in to that category. They were/are all male!


Sorry but that does not equal a tyrant and is insulting to the people who actually do live under a tyrant's rule. If you lived under a tyrant leader you would not be posting those comments on the internet - you would be thrown in jail and left to rot.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sorry but that does not equal a tyrant and is insulting to the people who actually do live under a tyrant's rule. If you lived under a tyrant leader you would not be posting those comments on the internet - you would be thrown in jail and left to rot.


Yes, you're right about it being (unintentionally) insulting for people living under the rules of a tyrant. I take that back and apologise for any offence caused.

Yet May IS working towards being like one. It all starts with words. Who's to say objectors won't be imprisoned for their "disloyalty" in the future?

Just because this is England it doesn't mean it cannot happen.

I'm sure Germans' once thought that too.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Whose to say this won't happen in the future?
> 
> Just because this is England doesn't mean it cannot happen.
> 
> I'm sure Germans' once thought that too.


You do make me laugh - who is to say the world won't come to an end too? or the sky might fall in or we might be invaded by aliens from Mars? That does not make her a tyrant.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Yes, you're right about it being (unintentionally) insulting for people living under the rules of a tyrant. I take that back and apologise for any offence caused.
> 
> Yet May IS working towards being like one. It all starts with words. Who's to say objectors won't be imprisoned for their "disloyalty" in the future?
> 
> Just because this is England it doesn't mean it cannot happen.
> 
> I'm sure Germans' once thought that too.


Because in just three years they will be another general election when we can vote for another party, then again in 2025 and so on.

All Mrs May is doing is implementing Brexit with a firm hand. Better that than just trying to appease the EU and have a meaningless Brexit no one voted for.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> the rules of a tyrant.


If it's tyrants we're talking about, try Stalin, Hitler, or maybe move to North Korea; you'd love it there!!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I see the exact opposite. A tyrant who believes she can control others through intimidation, not by leading by example or showing respect. We've all had bosses like this at some time in our lives.
> 
> Strong woman? Hardly! Bullies are pathetic people.
> 
> And bullies always discover something they never thought would happen. They discover someone who's more a bully that she is, then experience being bullied themselves.
> 
> Thank God Nicola Sturgeon is standing up to her. Now, she's a strong woman I look up to.


OMG you are serious aren't you.......I thought you were joking around a bit by exaggerating but you're not are you?


----------



## Honeys mum

DT said:


> We've had a long wait, but they do say good things are worth waiting for x


Totally agree DT.x


----------



## Honeys mum

DT said:


> HOW LOUD TO I HAVE TO SHOUT to get it through you thick skull that neither I nor anyone else has to supply any data to you or anyone else our reasons for wanting to leave the EU! You, and others can supply whatever information you like backed up by whomever you choose along with your so called expert views, I for one am not interested, I really don't care, and truth of the matter is irreverent how qualified these so called experts are no one really knows ! I wanted out, we voted out, and we are getting out, that's good enough for me and I don't mind betting I'm not alone either!
> As for the consequences, time will tell but at least then it will be FACT rather then speculation!
> I seriously have finished replying to you, you remind me of a scratched record!


Very well said DT, if there were still reps you would be getting one.


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Happy Paws2

*12.20pm Wednesday 29th March 2018...................we're Doooomed*


----------



## samuelsmiles

Oh, Christ. I think I've made a mistake. Is it too late to change my decision.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Happy Paws said:


> *12.20pm Wednesday 29th March 2018...................we're Doooomed*


To what?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Happy Paws said:


> *12.20pm Wednesday 29th March 2018...................we're Doooomed*


Don't panic, don't panic....


----------



## DoodlesRule

In 1963, Charles de Gaulle said "non". Britain had "very special, very original habits and traditions", the French president said, and was "different from continentals" - it would only be an Anglo-Saxon Trojan horse in a European stable.

He was right, we should never have joined in the first place


----------



## noushka05

Sad day indeed. Worth reminding all we now stand to lose.


----------



## Jesthar

*OK, people, I'm going to say this just once. * It's a bit longer than I usually write, but please bear with me. As I think it's important.

Yes, we all know what is happening today. That's NOT important. Nor is which way you voted.

The important thing to remember is that whilst a lot of people DO want it to happen, a pretty similar number DON'T want it to happen.

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it struck me last night you can pretty much think of the range of emotion people will be experiencing today in terms a divorce between two people (both British) who have been married for a long time. One has decided, due to no fault of their partner, that they want out and to do their own thing. The other remains committed to the relationship and doesn't want it to end.

Now imagine the Decree Nisi papers have just been opened by both.

One is ecstatic. The other is devastated.

One is thrilled by the chance to be footloose, fancy free, accountable to no-one and taking life as it comes. The other is worried by the prospect of such massive upheaval with no guarantee of stability.

One feels like throwing a wild party to celebrate. The other feels like their world has been smashed to bits by somebody else for no good reason.

Now, I think we can agree that the happy person is fine. But what about the other person, how will you interact with them? Are you really going to say things like:

"You'll be fine, just accept their decision and move on"
"Well, 50% of people get divorced, so you're not alone."
"Plenty more fish, maybe you'll get someone better"
"No point in being negative, I'm sure things will work out for the best"
"You should be happy at getting such a fantastic opportunity to start over"
"You'll be better off without them"
"Don't worry, be happy"
"Why not just get drunk and join the party?"

Because if you do decide to trot out such platitudes, you shouldn't be surprised if you get a negative reaction. That goes double if, rather than just saying them because you don't really know what to say, you really mean them. After all, you don't treat the pain of a physical injury by trying to convice the person they are not really hurt (well, unless you are a scientologist  ), or by insisting the pain is actually good to have, do you? Well, the same goes for emotional pain.

Incidentally, if some months (or years) down the line the person is still grieving for their loss, then lines like "aren't you over this yet?" are equally unwelcome.

So basically, if you are happy and want to party, that's fine. But it would be kind to be mindful of the feelings of many others who really don't feel like partying.

And no, it wasn't me who went through a divorce like that. It was my parents.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Sad day indeed. Worth reminding all we now stand to lose.


It's only when the UK becomes isolated from the rest of Europe people will realise what they've given up. Perhaps they have to experience it to believe it for themselves, rather than dismiss what we've been saying for ages being dismissed as, "Scaremongering".

The weather in England certainly affected the mood of this very bleak day. Grey, cold wet and miserable. Not the Mediterranean like sunshine many Brexiteers expected!

We're in Scotland at the moment. You know something? Still raining here but it certainly brightened up as we crossed the border!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> It's only when the UK becomes isolated from the rest of Europe people will realise what they've given up. Perhaps they have to experience it to believe it for themselves, rather than dismiss what we've been saying for ages being dismissed as, "Scaremongering".
> 
> The weather in England certainly affected the mood of this very bleak day. Grey, cold wet and miserable. Not the Mediterranean like sunshine many Brexiteers expected!
> 
> We're in Scotland at the moment. You know something? Still raining here but it certainly brightened up as we crossed the border!


I only hope that if leaving the EU does indeed turn into the disaster experts in all walks have predicted, the ones who have pushed for this extreme brexit will be big enough to take responsibility & not find another scapegoat to take the blame.

Hope the EU are kind to us - its over to them now.

















86 replies 298 retweets 564 likes
  
I expect its the feeling of hope & inclusiveness you could sense in Scotland. Nothing could dampen that I bet


----------



## noushka05

Here's Theresa May's Article 50 statement.


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> *12.20pm Wednesday 29th March 2018...................we're Doooomed*


Omg! You are so right, my dishwasher just stopped mid cycle and the TV went off, we we warned the lights would go out

Tut! Scare over, other half just tripped us out! Tut


----------



## noushka05

If only May had a fraction of Caroline's integrity, honesty & moral decency we might have had a chance. Instead she's dragged us all over a cliff.

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* 6h6 hours ago

Our cross-party letter in the @*guardian*.
In the comings months I will defend:








*EU Nationals*







*Our Environment*







*Workers' Rights*
#*Article50*


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> *12.20pm Wednesday 29th March 2018...................we're Doooomed*


What's happening then?


----------



## Guest

DT said:


> HOW LOUD TO I HAVE TO SHOUT to get it through you thick skull that neither I nor anyone else has to supply any data to you or anyone else our reasons for wanting to leave the EU! You, and others can supply whatever information you like backed up by whomever you choose along with your so called expert views, I for one am not interested, I really don't care, and truth of the matter is irreverent how qualified these so called experts are no one really knows ! I wanted out, we voted out, and we are getting out, that's good enough for me and I don't mind betting I'm not alone either! !


I could not have said it more bluntly that in reality the leavers don´t really care about facts and real reasons for leaving EU. And that is why the remainers are afraid, and for a good reason. When people stop caring about facts, nothing is easier than hiding the hard truth behind complicated messages and a few slogans, which usually blame foreigners for everything.

I wonder what will be easier for TM - sell British a few polished lies, knowing she has nothing to win in EU-negotiations, or tell the truth that Bristish people will loose big time, but someone will profit a lot. Now it is time to wake up and become interested in facts, as otherwise you will loose much more you ever thought possible.


----------



## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> I only hope that if leaving the EU does indeed turn into the disaster experts in all walks have predicted, the ones who have pushed for this extreme brexit will be big enough to take responsibility & not find another scapegoat to take the blame.


They've already set them up as cutouts.. there's the EU itself for "punishing" the UK for standing up to them when in reality it's a case of simply sticking to what they said before the referendum. Then there's Scotland and us remainers for not uniting behind things. Actually admitting you fell for spin is hard at the end of the day.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> They've already set them up as cutouts.. there's the EU itself for "punishing" the UK for standing up to them when in reality it's a case of simply sticking to what they said before the referendum. Then there's Scotland and us remainers for not uniting behind things. Actually admitting you fell for spin is hard at the end of the day.


Well that's this thread done for two years. Let's all pop back in 2019 and see what the ACTUAL situation is, rather than more speculation from unknown "experts" and fantasies on how article fifty won't be triggered.

Goblin, is that you admitting you fell for the remain camps spin? Good on you for that.


----------



## Honeys mum

Jesthar said:


> The important thing to remember is that whilst a lot of people DO want it to happen, a pretty similar number DON'T want it to happen.


I suppose it was the same when there was a vote to join Europe all those years ago.There would have been people who ddin't want it to happen as well as the ones who did.They had to accept it and get on with life.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> If it's tyrants we're talking about, try Stalin, Hitler, or maybe move to North Korea; you'd love it there!!


Thanks for adding to the list.
You know something, it's quite funny being asked to move to North Korea.

I remember the days of the Thatcher government when opponents to her policies were told to, "Move to Russia"!

What makes people think by opposing such policies make one a Communist?

Couldn't be more wrong.

I despised the Iron Curtain and remember the joy of seeing the Berlin Wall being broken through. Then a few years later the NI peace process and the end of that border.

I wonder what will come of the Channel Tunnel? Another symbol of free movement between EU states.

I do not agree with the far right nor left.

Tyrants don't always start as tyrants. Hitler was the nice man who promised to make his country great and talks of a "global Germany". Sound familiar to anyone? He attracted thousands.

May's best achievement outside the Tory party conference is a room full of journalists.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Goblin, is that you admitting you fell for the remain camps spin? Good on you for that.


Unlike some, I've posted factual reasons for my point of view. Maybe you should try it.


----------



## Jesthar

Honeys mum said:


> I suppose it was the same when there was a vote to join Europe all those years ago.There would have been people who ddin't want it to happen as well as the ones who did.They had to accept it and get on with life.


You miss the point...


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Thanks for adding to the list.
> You know something, it's quite funny being asked to move to North Korea.
> 
> I remember the days of the Thatcher government when opponents to her policies were told to, "Move to Russia"!
> 
> What makes people think by opposing such policies make one a Communist?
> 
> Couldn't be more wrong.
> 
> I despised the Iron Curtain and remember the joy of seeing the Berlin Wall being broken through. Then a few years later the NI peace process and the end of that border.
> 
> I wonder what will come of the Channel Tunnel? Another symbol of free movement between EU states.
> 
> I do not agree with the far right nor left.
> 
> Tyrants don't always start as tyrants. Hitler was the nice man who promised to make his country great and talks of a "global Germany". Sound familiar to anyone? He attracted thousands.
> 
> May's best achievement outside the Tory party conference is a room full of journalists.


Why would anything change with the channel tunnel? It'll operate as always just like flying and sailing into the EU. You'll just have to go through the red channel (not the sea, but the corridors at customs!).

Some remainers really do expect the UK to come to a grinding halt and return to 1973, no wonder they're so worried with that mindset.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Unlike some, I've posted factual reasons for my point of view. Maybe you should try it.


What do you want to me post? We're leaving the EU, and I've said before I voted in the hope it'll be leaving lock, stock and barrel. In which case, as off today, there's no facts to find on what it will be like, just speculation. I voted to be a independent island once again, which if your English it appears to mean your a uneducated racist sun reading thug, however if your Scottish and want independence it makes you patriotic and oppressed.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Who's to say objectors won't be imprisoned for their "disloyalty" in the future?


No, really; this is a country that doesn't even deport career criminals who have been in the dock about 15 times. I doubt we are going to be locked up for what we are thinking...dear God.


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> appears to be racist


@
@Dr Pepper: Yes, racist or ''far right''...I never heard anyone mention the ''far-left'' tho'.


----------



## Honeys mum

Farage toasts the triggering of Article 50

Nigels celebrating.


----------



## Calvine

Honeys mum said:


> They had to accept it and get on with life


They didn't whine about it for the next decade, that's a fact.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Some remainers really do expect the UK to come to a grinding halt and return to 1973, no wonder they're so worried with that mindset.


????

1. Bring back the blue British Passport.

2. Restore "our" British weights and measures. Even pre decimal currency.

3. Industries of old lost in the '80s will return.

4. Immigrants will be sent back to their own countries.

5. 'Elf and safety will be abolished.

These are some things I've heard from Leave voters.

And you think it's remainers who think things will return to the pre CM '70s?!


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Well that's this thread done for two years. Let's all pop back in 2019 and see what the ACTUAL situation is, rather than more speculation from unknown "experts" and fantasies on how article fifty won't be
> 
> 
> Dr Pepper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's this thread done for two years. Let's all pop back in 2019 and see what the ACTUAL situation is, rather than more speculation from unknown "experts" and fantasies on how article fifty won't be triggered.
> 
> Goblin, is that you admitting you fell for the remain camps spin? Good on you for that.[/QUOT
> 
> Well put dr pepper, wish I could put it so eloquently
Click to expand...

Well put dr pepper, wish I could put it so eloquently


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> ????
> 
> 1. Bring back the blue British Passport.
> 
> 2. Restore "our" British weights and measures. Even pre decimal currency.
> 
> 3. Industries of old lost in the '80s will return.
> 
> 4. Immigrants will be sent back to their own countries.
> 
> 5. 'Elf and safety will be abolished.
> 
> These are some things I've heard from Leave voters.
> 
> And you think it's remainers who think things will return to the pre CM '70s?!


And as for the remain camp, of course they have refrained from such codswallop
The lights will go out
No more brussel sprouts or spag bol
Oh, and the funniest, we are doomed!
You couldn't make it up could you?


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> Farage toasts the triggering of Article 50
> 
> Nigels celebrating.


So shall I later, be tee total since the new year, think this calls for a wee tipple xx


----------



## Calvine

Honeys mum said:


> Nigels celebrating.


He does like a pint (or two).


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> No, really; this is a country that doesn't even deport career criminals who have been in the dock about 15 times. I doubt we are going to be locked up for what we are thinking...dear God.


......At the moment. All the EU's fault of course.

What I'm saying is many think it could never happen in Britain. I'm sure many thought this in Germany and other countries too.

The thing is it CAN happen. All I'm saying is not to be complacent.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> These are some things I've heard from Leave voters.


You mix with the wrong crowd, clearly!


----------



## KittenKong

This is a fine start.

Good.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39430799


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dr Pepper said:


> *Why would anything change with the channel tunnel?* It'll operate as always just like flying and sailing into the EU. You'll just have to go through the red channel (not the sea, but the corridors at customs!).
> 
> Some remainers really do expect the UK to come to a grinding halt and return to 1973, no wonder they're so worried with that mindset.


Because it's mainly owned by the french, and as far as customs I think it will be moved over here so instead of driving straight off here we will have to queue as we drive off the shuttle. same with Eurostar we'll go through customs in London.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> It's only when the UK becomes isolated from the rest of Europe people will realise what they've given up. Perhaps they have to experience it to believe it for themselves, rather than dismiss what we've been saying for ages being dismissed as, "Scaremongering".
> 
> The weather in England certainly affected the mood of this very bleak day. Grey, cold wet and miserable. Not the Mediterranean like sunshine many Brexiteers expected!
> 
> We're in Scotland at the moment. You know something? Still raining here but it certainly brightened up as we crossed the border!


Who said any leave voters expected Mediterranean sunshine? Personally I was at least expecting a fanfare of trumpets and fireworks but perhaps they will come later.


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> Omg! You are so right, my dishwasher just stopped mid cycle and the TV went off, we we warned the lights would go out


It is just not funny @DT: my car battery was flat as a fart this morning; I blame Brexit: might as well, it's getting blamed for everything else.:Bawling


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> It is just not funny @DT: my car battery was flat as a fart this morning; I blame Brexit: might as well, it's getting blamed for everything else.:Bawling


Duh! Silly me, that explains why I just burnt the spuds! And otherhalf said,it was because I was mucking around on here, I just knew there had to be a more scientific reason, wonder it its ba ked up by experts?


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Farage toasts the triggering of Article 50
> 
> Nigels celebrating.


Of course he his, he has his escape plan all worked out and will leave the country if brexit doesn't work out. He's already admitted that and the fact as a politician he will not apologise on LBC radio. How many of his "victims" who brought into his lies will be able to leave in the same way?


----------



## rona

DT said:


> So shall I later, be tee total since the new year, think this calls for a wee tipple xx


Oh gawd........watch out for the weird posts later


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> This is a fine start.
> 
> Good.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39430799
> View attachment 304718
> View attachment 304719


Just goes to show what I've been saying all along. Protectionist and corrupt.................


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> They've already set them up as cutouts.. there's the EU itself for "punishing" the UK for standing up to them when in reality it's a case of simply sticking to what they said before the referendum. Then there's Scotland and us remainers for not uniting behind things. Actually admitting you fell for spin is hard at the end of the day.


I fear you're right. They will point the blame at us remoaners or the EU & the gutter press will back them up. I can see it now.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Happy Paws said:


> Because it's mainly owned by the french, and as far as customs I think it will be moved over here so instead of driving straight off here we will have to queue as we drive off the shuttle. same with Eurostar we'll go through customs in London.


I presumed we would be queuing one side of the other as just as we'll be going through the red channel. Be that in France or the UK isn't really a issue.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Why would anything change with the channel tunnel? It'll operate as always just like flying and sailing into the EU. You'll just have to go through the red channel (not the sea, but the corridors at customs!).
> 
> Some remainers really do expect the UK to come to a grinding halt and return to 1973, no wonder they're so worried with that mindset.


Duh! Are you stupid they are going to brick the tunnel up they are, arnt they? I mean, that is one of the reasons why us leavers voted to leave isn"t it


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Some remainers really do expect the UK to come to a grinding halt and return to 1973, no wonder they're so worried with that mindset.


No I expect the government will now rip up all that red tape they hate so much. The red tape that protects us & our environment from corporate greed. I love nature & I love my children. I want them to be protected - the EU did that.


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> Oh gawd........watch out for the weird posts later


Fraid you could be right rona, this thread has gone round and round, up and down, in and out, and both sides are going over and over the same ground, two years of this will send me grey,! Every post I make on this thread from now on it going to be light hearted and jovial,


----------



## rona

DT said:


> Fraid you could be right rona, this thread has gone round and round, up and down, in and out, and both sides are going over and over the same ground, two years of this will send me grey,! Every post I make on this thread from now on it going to be light hearted and jovial,


Light hearted and jovial to you, wonder if others will see it that way


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> No I expect the government will now rip up all that red tape they hate so much. The red tape that protects us & our environment from corporate greed. I love nature & I love my children. I want them to be protected - the EU did that.


So do i noush so do I, hence why I voted out, one of us ticked the right box, time will tell which one of us that will be,
My moneys on me though


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> Light hearted and jovial to you, wonder if others will see it that way


They have two choices or they can put me on ignore


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> Fraid you could be right rona, *this thread has gone round and round,* up and down, in and out, and both sides are going over and over the same ground, two years of this will send me grey,! Every post I make on this thread from now on it going to be light hearted and jovial,


I've been saying that for weeks that why it's time it was closed.


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> I've been saying that for weeks that why it's time it was closed.


And what would we do then. There is no harm done to anyone, no one is bleeding, or wounded, well, not yet.


----------



## Honeys mum

DT said:


> So shall I later, be tee total since the new year, think this calls for a wee tipple xx


Why shouldn't you DT it's certainally something to celebrate have one for me while your at it.I said to my OH this morning, if we had a union Jack, I'd have put it outside in the front garden.x


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> And what would we do then. There is no harm done to anyone, no one is bleeding, or wounded, well, not yet.


No just making everyone giddy, going round and round and round and round. Nothing new, just round and round and round.


----------



## 1290423

Hey! Guess what?

*729 to go.

*


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Every post I make on this thread from now on it going to be light hearted and jovial,


What we do is end every post with "nee nar nar narrn naa, we won and we're leaving ".

Seriously though, as I said earlier, there nothing more of consequence to say until the FACTS start coming out. But I bet within 48 hours someone will post a "expert's" reasoning as to why article fifty is meaningless and we still won't be leaving.


----------



## rona

DT said:


> They have two choices or they can put me on ignore


My favourite click


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> What we do is end every post with "nee nar nar narrn naa, we won and we're leaving ".
> 
> Seriously though, as I said earlier, there nothing more of consequence to say until the FACTS start coming out. But I bet within 48 hours someone will post a "expert's" reasoning as to why article fifty is meaningless and we still won't be leaving.


Well im not going to bet against you on that happening, apart that is on the timing, I reckon sooner then that


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Well im not going to bet against you on that happening, apart that is on the timing, I reckon sooner then that


Yes, but I wanted to be sure of winning the bet!!

Edit
We could run a sweepstakes!

Edit 2
Apologies to all those with divorced parents if being happy today has caused offence.


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> So do i noush so do I, hence why I voted out, one of us ticked the right box, time will tell which one of us that will be,
> My moneys on me though


Do you honestly think it will be better for corporations have free reign to pollute the air we breath, the water we drink. To poison the bees, the land & the food we eat? We don't have strong enough legislation. EU directives protected our rare & precious wildlife. Do you really think letting them disappear is a good thing?


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> My favourite click


Gutted! For a moment I was rejoicing, read that as favorite chick, thought you had called me chick  duh, need to go to spec savers


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Do you honestly think it will be better for corporations have free reign to pollute the air we breath, the water we drink. To poison the bees, the land & the food we eat? We don't have strong enough legislation. EU directives protected our rare & precious wildlife. Do you really think letting them disappear is a good thing?


I don't believe we will, I believe the environists will ensure safeguards there, we may not have to destroy so much woodland to make room for more homes and roads, the way we were going we could have ended up like,china

And sorry noush, but I can no longer be serious on this thread, I need to retain my blonde locks for as long as possible xxxx


----------



## 1290423

Well, my last post for today,
But shall end today by saying
There is one,lady I would really like to shake the hand of today,
That hand belongs too

*Teresa May*


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> Of course he his, he has his escape plan all worked out and will leave the country if brexit doesn't work out. He's already admitted that and the fact as a politician he will not apologise on LBC radio. How many of his "victims" who brought into his lies will be able to leave in the same way?


 As I saw it at the time (I am not that interested in politics you understand, nor do I spend as much time on PF as many others as I have a dreadfully demanding job):NF spent many years working towards a referendum which gave _British people_ the right to vote in a referendum asking are you/are you not in favour of leaving the EU. A simple question, nothing more. A majority voted yes (possibly because many would-be ''remain'' voters were so confident of winning/too lazy to vote/ thought it was all a big jape) that they didn't bother to get off their arses to vote but the fact is, UK voted OUT. ALL the BREXIT people I know did in fact get out and vote...several were on holiday but made one of many available options to ensure their vote was counted. After the referendum, it was made very clear to NF that, despite Brexit happening he was no longer wanted to help guide the country out of the EU, his help was not needed as he was not a member of the Tory party. He did not ''escape''...he was told he was no longer needed.


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> Well, my last post for today,
> But shall end today by saying
> There is one,lady I would really like to shake the hand of today,
> That hand belongs too
> *Teresa May*


:Yuck:Vomit


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> Of course he his, he has his escape plan all worked out and will leave the country if brexit doesn't work out. He's already admitted that and the fact as a politician he will not apologise on LBC radio. How many of his "victims" who brought into his lies will be able to leave in the same way?


Of course he is celebrating, and why not, he has every reason too. He has worked for twenty years for this day,and his job is done.
As calvine said, he did not escape, he is no longer needed. I'm sure he quoted he will be sticking around until it's all done and dusted. If he wants to leave then, good luck to him. Whether you like him or not, we have him to thank for getting us out of the E.U.


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> I don't believe we will, I believe the environists will ensure safeguards there, we may not have to destroy so much woodland to make room for more homes and roads, the way we were going we could have ended up like,china


You're so wrong Sue. Why do you think, despite its faults, environmentalists campaigned so hard to stay in the EU? Because they know the tory hard right have been desperate to dismantle environmental protections. The government class environmentalists as terrorists once they've scrapped the Human Rights Act there will be nothing to stop them coming down hard on those who seek to defend our natural world. They are going to build a bonfire with all that red tape now & nothing can stop them.

Its happening over in the US with Trump. They share the same ideology.

Every day there's a new horror. Here is the Republicans latest attack on our precious natural world.

*H.J Res.69 has been passed.....killing hibernating bears, wolves, pups...
to vote yes on this, you must be evil.

Every Republican voted yes.*










And we have always had control of our borders Sue - they just chose not to exercise it.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> No just making everyone giddy, going round and round and round and round. Nothing new, just round and round and round.


Perhaps a new thread, "Now that Article 50 has been triggered"

Sorry to disappoint Brexiteers here but us EU supporters stand by what we believe in.

May can't order us to get behind Brexit.


----------



## Satori

Calvine said:


> You mix with the wrong crowd, clearly!


Fellow Sun readers no doubt.


----------



## KittenKong

....And fighting against May's hard Brexit will continue.....






























http://www.voteleavewatch.org.uk/join


----------



## KittenKong

Over on Sabre Roads....


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Fellow Sun readers no doubt.


You are so bad lol


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Of course he is celebrating, and why not, he has every reason too. He has worked for twenty years for this day,and his job is done.
> As calvine said, he did not escape, he is no longer needed. I'm sure he quoted he will be sticking around until it's all done and dusted. If he wants to leave then, good luck to him. Whether you like him or not, we have him to thank for getting us out of the E.U.


No he will escape if or more likely when brexit fails. He'll emmigrate despite being anti-immigration and pushing the lies about it. Do you have that option?


----------



## KittenKong

Funny you should say that as it was The Sun who're campaigning for the return of the blue passports.

The other issues I've heard on the radio and TV.

People honestly believe that!

This is also worth a look.
https://extranewsfeed.com/50-dumb-****-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu-66a40c72c1da#.5rxsjy5j4


----------



## Zaros

DT said:


> There is one,lady I would really like to shake the hand of today,
> That hand belongs too
> 
> *Teresa May*


I've just googled this 'Teresa May' and if I were you I'd wash your hands after shaking hers because, not unlike the other Theresa May, she too, has held on to a few d1cks in her time.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/27222...gys-smack-my-b-up-video-all-you-need-to-know/

I wonder if Philip (That's her 1940's styled husband) has ever fantasised about smacking his 81tch up.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> 'I've just googled this 'Teresa May' and if I were you I'd wash your hands after shaking hers because, not unlike the other Theresa May, she too, has held on to a few d1cks in her time.
> 
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/27222...gys-smack-my-b-up-video-all-you-need-to-know/
> 
> I wonder if Philip (That's her 1940's styled husband) has ever fantasised about smacking his 81tch up.


Jeezus Christ how has that quote got my name on it?

(& Surprisingly I completely agree with your post  )

1940's styled husband:Hilarious has cracked me right up lol Didn't think I'd got a laugh in me today


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Jeezus Christ how has that quote got my name on it?
> (& Surprisingly I completely agree with your post  )
> 1940's styled husband:Hilarious has cracked me right up lol Didn't think I'd got a laugh in me today


Your name Noush'?

The moment I saw Philip May I couldn't help think about this character;

John Reginald Halliday Christie.....








You know.....10 Rillington Place and the unfortunate Timothy Evans who was falsely accused of murdering his wife and daughter at that address, when all along it was Christie himself, who had a thing for collecting the public hair from all his victims.:Jawdrop

I wonder what skeletons the Mays have locked away in their cupboards and under their floorboards.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Your name Noush'?
> 
> The moment I saw Philip May I couldn't help think about this character;
> 
> John Reginald Halliday Christie.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know.....10 Rillington Place and the unfortunate Timothy Evans who was falsely accused of murdering his wife and daughter at that address, when all along it was Christie himself, who had a thing for collecting the public hair from all his victims.:Jawdrop
> 
> I wonder what skeletons the Mays have locked away in their cupboards and under their floorboards.


Look at the name above that quote - tis mine:Wideyed. I don't want to shake the hags hand - rip it off maybe

noushka05 said: ↑
There is one,lady I would really like to shake the hand of today,
That hand belongs too

*Teresa May
*
He does look like Christie - creepy as hell! Infact they are a seriously creepy(& untrustworthy) couple - no way would I fancy lodging with them!:Nailbiting lol


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Look at the name above that quote - tis mine:Wideyed. I don't want to shake the hags hand - rip it off maybe
> 
> He does look like Christie - creepy as hell! Infact they are a seriously creepy(& untrustworthy) couple - no way would I fancy lodging with them!:Nailbiting lol


Bugger me! So it does.

I must away and amend

Oh, and Bugger me, incidentally, was just a figure of speech. I'd hate for any up and coming politician to think I was volunteering myself for a shafting.

As for Mr and Mrs May, I can just imagine their role play games, him as Charlie Starkweather and she Caril Ann.....:Nailbiting


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> No he will escape if or more likely when brexit fails. He'll emmigrate despite being anti-immigration and pushing the lies about it. Do you have that option?


Well yes as a matter of fact, we did it once. Emmigrated to South Africa, but came back after a few years.I'm sure we could again if we wanted, but I have no desire to do so now.


----------



## Honeys mum

Better late than never.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 304817
> 
> 
> Funny you should say that as it was The Sun who're campaigning for the return of the blue passports.


I bow to your experience in all matters tabloid.


----------



## Honeys mum

"For those of us who believe in an independent United Kingdom, there is one man who we all owe a debt of gratitude to more than any other: Nigel Farage."

Thank you, Nigel!

















Cheers Nigel!
Westmonster salutes Britain's Mr. Brexit.
www.westmonster.com


----------



## stockwellcat.

Good morning everyone.

So how does it feel everyone?

Article 50 was triggered yesterday and now the UK is formally in the negotiation stage.

Painless wasn't it.
The skies didn't fall in.
The horse men of the apocalypse didn't come.
The Economy is still growing.
Everyone is still going about there daily business.
Theresa May said there's no turning back from this. I applaud her for standing her ground against the remainers especially the SNP.

So it's done. The UK is running towards the exit door from the EU. At last what I voted for is now in motion. The UK will be now leaving the EU on the 29th March 2019 that's approximately 729 days away.

I must apologise for not showing my gratitude yesterday to Nigel Farage, Theresa May, Boris Johnson and gang and thanking them for making this happen. I also apologise for my absence in the online celebration on here for the triggering of Article 50 day soon to be known as UK Independence day. But hey it happened. Article 50 has been triggered and yes I got absolutely smashed on alcohol yesterday in celebration.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here is the moment the article 50 letter was handed to Donald Tusk in case the remainers missed it and forget.

This 42+ year relationship is coming to an end with the EU at last.


----------



## Bisbow

Just as I thought, the remainers turned to insults and bile yesterday, even going low enough to insult Mrs Mays husband
Hpw low can they get
Sore losers is not a big enough phrase to describe them

Me, on the other hand ,had a great day, as did my grand daughter

Many thanks to Mrs May for triggering article 50 at last and setting the wheels in motion to get rid of the corrupt EU


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Better late than never.


I'll keep saying this but here we go again - we had the power to control our borders - May chose not to. We never lost our sovereignty when we joined the EU. The governments own white paper makes that crystal clear. Unfortunately we'll certainly be losing it soon when its handed over to big business.

.









Oh dear .....












Honeys mum said:


> "For those of us who believe in an independent United Kingdom, there is one man who we all owe a debt of gratitude to more than any other: Nigel Farage."
> 
> Thank you, Nigel!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers Nigel!
> Westmonster salutes Britain's Mr. Brexit.
> www.westmonster.com


Westmonster would salute 'Mr Brexit'. Its owner bought the leave campaign 

Just watch that rat jump the sinking ship when it all goes **** up.



Bisbow said:


> Just as I thought, the remainers turned to insults and bile yesterday, even going low enough to insult Mrs Mays husband
> Hpw low can they get
> Sore losers is not a big enough phrase to describe them
> 
> Me, on the other hand ,had a great day, as did my grand daughter
> 
> Many thanks to Mrs May for triggering article 50 at last and setting the wheels in motion to get rid of the corrupt EU


Not as low as risking this country for political gain though 

I just hope you hard brexiteers who have cheerleadered in this most extreme brexit will be big enough to hold your hands up & accept responsibility if we end up worse off than we were in the EU.


----------



## Calvine

Honeys mum said:


> he is no longer needed.


...and I'd add ''no longer _wanted_'', @Honeys mum: meaning that when he offered to help the leaving process he was told in no uncertain terms to p*ss off.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Westmonster would salute 'Mr Brexit'. Its owner bought the leave campaign


Thanks noush, you have not dissapointed me.I knew you would come up with that remark about Westmonster, same as you have before.
A case of repeating yourself yet again, I'm afraid, but then whats new.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Bugger me! So it does.
> 
> I must away and amend
> 
> Oh, and Bugger me, incidentally, was just a figure of speech. I'd hate for any up and coming politician to think I was volunteering myself for a shafting.
> 
> As for Mr and Mrs May, I can just imagine their role play games, him as Charlie Starkweather and she Caril Ann.....:Nailbiting


Don't worry Zaros, I from up't North too - I know what bugger me means:Hilarious

I've just had to google Charlie & Caril


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Good morning everyone.
> 
> So how does it feel everyone?
> 
> Article 50 was triggered yesterday and now the UK is formally in the negotiation stage.
> 
> Painless wasn't it.
> The skies didn't fall in.
> The horse men of the apocalypse didn't come.
> The Economy is still growing.
> Everyone is still going about there daily business.
> Theresa May said there's no turning back from this. I applaud her for standing her ground against the remainers especially the SNP.
> 
> So it's done. The UK is running towards the exit door from the EU. At last what I voted for is now in motion. The UK will be now leaving the EU on the 29th March 2019 that's approximately 729 days away.
> 
> I must apologise for not showing my gratitude yesterday to Nigel Farage, Theresa May, Boris Johnson and gang and thanking them for making this happen. I also apologise for my absence in the online celebration on here for the triggering of Article 50 day soon to be known as UK Independence day. But hey it happened. Article 50 has been triggered and yes I got absolutely smashed on alcohol yesterday in celebration.


Maybe, perhaps maybe you'll be crying in your beer in due course.

If you must know I'm sure along with at least 48% of the population I feel dreadful.

The only consolation yesterday was Donald Tusk's recognition that half the UK didn't vote for this.

And did the celebration's start? I didn't hear a single chant of, "Suck it up losers" nor, "Land of hope and Glory" or, "We're getting our country back". This area voted leave too!

The only flags I saw yesterday were Scottish ones, but I was in Scotland.

And how do you know your life will be better outside the EU. You're too young to remember a time before the UK joined the Common Market.


----------



## Bisbow

Honeys mum said:


> Thanks noush, you have not dissapointed me.I knew you would come up with that remark about Westmonster, same as you have before.
> A case of repeating yourself yet again, I'm afraid, but then whats new.


There is nothing new with the remainers , Honeys mum, just the same old, same old time after time
All that is new is the insults about people with no chance of reply


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Thanks noush, you have not dissapointed me.I knew you would come up with that remark about Westmonster, same as you have before.
> A case of repeating yourself yet again, I'm afraid, but then whats new.


You pull me up for referencing experts while you reference a fake news site on par with the dreadful propaganda rag Breitbarts. Says it all.


----------



## noushka05

Personally I wouldn't include those who regret voting brexit, just those who have gone along with the government.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Don't worry Zaros, I from up't North too - I know what bugger me means:Hilarious
> 
> I've just had to google Charlie & Caril


:Hilarious Not a phrase loosely uttered in parliament for fear of them all hastily lining up somewhat expectantly. 

I suppose I could have written Bonnie & Clyde but, for some inexplicable reason, many people tend to harbour romantic notions about the couple.

By contrast there's nothing fanciful about Charlie & Caril and I have it on good authority that the movie 'Natural Born Killers' was loosely based on the pair.

And so we enter the twilight zone...:Nailbiting


----------



## Bisbow

[QUOTE="KittenKong, post: 1064818430, member:

And did the celebration's start? I didn't hear a single chant of, "Suck it up losers" nor, "Land of hope and Glory" or, "We're getting our country back
.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps that is because we don't need to, perhaps it is because we know how to behave towards bitter losers, just ignore them
We believe we have done the right thing so don't have to make a meal of it
Quietly confident and happy with the outcome


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> I just hope you hard brexiteers who have cheerleadered in this most extreme brexit will be big enough to hold your hands up & accept responsibility if we end up worse off than we were in the EU.


"we" ?


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> You pull me up for referencing experts while you reference a fake news site on par with the dreadful propaganda rag Breitbarts. Says it all.


For your information nosh, I do not go on the Westmonster site, that image came from another site, which just happened to have it on. Also I have never heard of or seen Breitbarts, whatever that is.
I take that as an insult, but then what's new.!


----------



## Calvine

Satori said:


> I bow to your experience in all matters tabloid.


So you should. I seriously suspect Kitten Kong may be a ghost writer for the _Sun_...has it still got the highest circulation in the country? It used to have, and not that long ago.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Maybe, perhaps maybe you'll be crying in your beer in due course.
> 
> If you must know I'm sure along with at least 48% of the population I feel dreadful.
> 
> The only consolation yesterday was Donald Tusk's recognition that half the UK didn't vote for this.
> 
> And did the celebration's start? I didn't hear a single chant of, "Suck it up losers" nor, "Land of hope and Glory" or, "We're getting our country back". This area voted leave too!
> 
> The only flags I saw yesterday were Scottish ones, but I was in Scotland.
> 
> And how do you know your life will be better outside the EU. You're too young to remember a time before the UK joined the Common Market.


Ok, we've had this before, 48% of the population didn't vote remain. The few hard remainers left are not representing any where near the number of people they think they are.

A reality check for you there.


----------



## Honeys mum

Love the socks Nige.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> Just as I thought, the remainers turned to insults and bile yesterday, even going low enough to insult Mrs Mays husband
> Hpw low can they get
> Sore losers is not a big enough phrase to describe them
> 
> Me, on the other hand ,had a great day, as did my grand daughter
> 
> Many thanks to Mrs May for triggering article 50 at last and setting the wheels in motion to get rid of the corrupt EU


Strange you phrase it winners and losers. I only see losers but then it shows the attitude of the leavers doesn't it.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> So you should. I seriously suspect Kitten Kong may be a ghost writer for the _Sun_...has it still got the highest circulation in the country? It used to have, and not that long ago.


Certainly has in these parts.
There's always a copy at my place of work much to my horror. The Mail's often there too.

You don't honestly believe I buy that pap do you?

To comment on a paper means having to look at it from time to time. It's incredible how many believe in what they write.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Do you honestly think it will be better for corporations have free reign to pollute the air we breath, the water we drink. To poison the bees, the land & the food we eat? We don't have strong enough legislation. EU directives protected our rare & precious wildlife. Do you really think letting them disappear is a good thing?


Course it will be, they've been told so.

Can't have non British birds and insects migrating to the UK can they?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Article 50 was triggered yesterday and now the UK is formally in the negotiation stage.
> 
> Painless wasn't it.


Great. Now I have the M.A.S.H. theme stuck in my head...


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> You don't honestly believe I buy that pap do you?


No, God knows who does buy them...but can you assure me, hand on heart, that you don't take a covert look online?


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Ok, we've had this before, 48% of the population didn't vote remain. The few hard remainers left are not representing any where near the number of people they think they are.
> 
> A reality check for you there.


A reality check for you is 52% of the population who were eligible to vote didn't vote remain!

So you think most remainers have become Brexiteers having listened to May you can't be more wrong.

Actually in a cynical way I'm looking forward to the 27 member states giving May and co a hard time, and the amount of leavers protesting on losing their jobs and/or no longer able to afford holidays abroad as examples.

"We're British and better" won't wash with many of the UK's former friends.

You just have to look at some EU countries to see how far advanced they are. Always have been.

If the UK adopted the ideas of other EU countries like France and Germany it might still have a car industry.

Germany had autobahns' 20 years before the UK had motorways!

Poor little Britain can't even abandon the Imperial system despite the British Metrication Board being established in 1965.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> A reality check for you is 52% of the population who were eligible to vote didn't vote remain.
> 
> Actually in a cynical way I'm looking forward to the 27 member states giving May and co a hard time


Not sure where your going with your 52% didn't vote remain as that's not the case 

Can't see the EU causing to many problems for Mrs May and Mr Davis if, as they've said, they are happy to walk away with no deals. It's kinda hard to put pressure on someone who is happy with nothing.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Not sure where your going with your 52% didn't vote remain as that's not the case
> 
> Can't see the EU causing to many problems for Mrs May and Mr Davis if, as they've said, they are happy to walk away with no deals. It's kinda hard to put pressure on someone who is happy with nothing.


I think they'll be in for a hard time at home if they walk away with no deal!

It'll be rightly no skin of the EU's nose if they do so. They decided to leave after all.

Why should the EU do any favours for them?


----------



## KittenKong

Yahoo! Good on Brussels!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39441035


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Actually in a cynical way I'm looking forward to the 27 member states giving May and co a hard time, and the amount of leavers protesting on losing their jobs and/or no longer able to afford holidays abroad as examples.


Good luck with that.


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> Strange you phrase it winners and losers. I only see losers but then it shows the attitude of the leavers doesn't it.


The only losers are those that won't accept the inevitable. you
It is happening, thank God, however many noises you make won't stop it now


----------



## samuelsmiles

KittenKong said:


> Yahoo! Good on Brussels!
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39441035
> View attachment 304846
> View attachment 304847


Kitten Kong, you failed to quote the next lines from the BBC article. So, to keep perspective, I've done it for you . 

*"However, she stressed that the Brussels office was an additional base, simply an EU subsidiary, and that the number of jobs affected was less than 100.
The company has around 700 London employees, but the market it runs involves more than 30,000."*


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Kitten Kong, you failed to quote the next lines from the BBC article. So, to keep perspective, I've done it for you .
> 
> *"However, she stressed that the Brussels office was an additional base, simply an EU subsidiary, and that the number of jobs affected was less than 100.
> The company has around 700 London employees, but the market it runs involves more than 30,000."*


......and the lines after that.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> The only losers are those that won't accept the inevitable. you
> It is happening, thank God, however many noises you make won't stop it now


Well what will you personally gain I wonder? You definately lose out on a lot, what magic balances?


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> Well what will you personally gain I wonder? You definately lose out on a lot, what magic balances?


Maybe I won't gain anything personally but my grandchildren will and future generations along with them
I have nothing to lose


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> Maybe I won't gain anything personally but my grandchildren will and future generations along with them
> I have nothing to lose


Actually you will have already lost out if we leave.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Actually you will have already lost out if we leave.


WHEN not IF


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> Actually you will have already lost out if we leave.


I have lost nothing but I have gained the satisfaction that the future generation will not be pulled down into the cesspit the EU is becoming


----------



## DoodlesRule

Honeys mum said:


> I suppose it was the same when there was a vote to join Europe all those years ago.There would have been people who ddin't want it to happen as well as the ones who did.They had to accept it and get on with life.


My understanding there has never been a vote regarding the European Union - the votes in the 70's related to the Common Market which morphed into a completely different beast!

An interesting question for Remainers (from comments on the Guardian) : Do you hope that it turns out really bad and confirms what you believe, or do you hope that it turns out much better than expected, and proves you wrong?


----------



## Bisbow

DoodlesRule said:


> My understanding there has never been a vote regarding the European Union - the votes in the 70's related to the Common Market which morphed into a completely different beast!
> 
> An interesting question for Remainers (from comments on the Guardian) : Do you hope that it turns out really bad and confirms what you believe, or do you hope that it turns out much better than expected, and proves you wrong?


No, we were never given the option of whether or not we wanted to join the EU, we were just pushed into it

Do you really expect an honest answer to you question, I don't


----------



## DoodlesRule

Bisbow said:


> No, we were never given the option of whether or not we wanted to join the EU, we were just pushed into it
> 
> Do you really expect an honest answer to you question, I don't


Ever the optimist I live in hope


----------



## Bisbow

DoodlesRule said:


> Ever the optimist I live in hope


Better than being a pessimist like the remainers are


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Great. Now I have the M.A.S.H. theme stuck in my head...


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> Of course he is celebrating, and why not, he has every reason too. He has worked for twenty years for this day,and his job is done.
> As calvine said, he did not escape, he is no longer needed. I'm sure he quoted he will be sticking around until it's all done and dusted. If he wants to leave then, good luck to him. Whether you like him or not, we have him to thank for getting us out of the E.U.


Yeah, but it's a big nasty of him to promote what he believed would benefit the country, only to run away from it if it all turns sour. He'll be able to afford moving away from the UK.

The "Ordinary, decent hard working people" he praised for backing him will have lost their automatic right to move within the EU.

They'll be the ones who'll be told, "You voted for this, get on with it".


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Yeah, but it's a big nasty of him to promote what he believed would benefit the country, only to run away from it if it all turns sour. He'll be able to afford moving away from the UK.


Sorry KK but he hasn't run away from anything. The only person who ran for the hills is D.C.Leaving someone else to sort his mess out. Which he did because he thought he was going to win, but it all back fired on him.


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> An interesting question for Remainers (from comments on the Guardian) : Do you hope that it turns out really bad and confirms what you believe, or do you hope that it turns out much better than expected, and proves you wrong?


Yes, I do hope it turns out badly for "Britain" due to the way May is handling it with her dictatorial no compromise approach.

Yes, I know the UK is leaving the EU which is not what I wanted, but I would have reluctantly accepted a compromise
, ie: Staying in the EEA with the benefits of the single market and freedom of movement for European citizens

52%/48% is hardly a mandate for what May is attempting which will result in total isolation from the EU/EEA area.

Had it been 62% leave against 32% remain the hard Brexiteers may have a point.

Just hope when it happens and many realise what they've lost a future government will seek a Norway/Swiss style arrangement.

Let's say May's hard Brexit turns out to be a "success". I would still be against it on principle. NOTHING would make me change my mind on that


----------



## Honeys mum

DoodlesRule said:


> My understanding there has never been a vote regarding the European Union - the votes in the 70's related to the Common Market which morphed into a completely different beast!


Yes, I think your right there, then the E.U. was formed and we were taken into that.


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> Yeah, but it's a big nasty of him to promote what he believed would benefit the country, only to run away from it if it all turns sour. He'll be able to afford moving away from the UK.
> 
> The "Ordinary, decent hard working people" he praised for backing him will have lost their automatic right to move within the EU.
> 
> They'll be the ones who'll be told, "You voted for this, get on with it".


Just looked up what NF actually said, selective quoting as I suspected 

I know you may find it difficult to grasp because its of importance to you, but the majority of ordinary, decent hard working people have absolutely no desire to move within the EU


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I do hope it turns out badly for "Britain" due to the way May is handling it with her dictatorial no compromise approach.
> 
> Yes, I know the UK is leaving the EU which is not what I wanted, but I would have reluctantly accepted a compromise
> , ie: Staying in the EEA with the benefits of the single market and freedom of movement for European citizens
> 
> 52%/48% is hardly a mandate for what May is attempting which will result in total isolation from the EU/EEA area.
> 
> Had it been 62% leave against 32% remain the hard Brexiteers may have a point.
> 
> Just hope when it happens and many realise what they've lost a future government will seek a Norway/Swiss style arrangement.
> 
> Let's say May's hard Brexit turns out to be a "success". I would still be against it on principle. NOTHING would make me change my mind on that


Again as I suspected you do want Britain to suffer - thank you for your honesty though!


----------



## Odin_cat

I only hope that IF it all goes wrong those who voted leave have enough self respect to admit it. The right wing press will blame anyone but themselves, they must be held to account.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I do hope it turns out badly for "Britain" due to the way May is handling it with her dictatorial no compromise approach
> 
> For someone who is supposed to love your country that Is some statement
> To hope it turns out badly sounds suspiciously like treason to me
> It seems you do not care about anything but your own wants and wishes and damn all else
> Very patriotic of you
> t[/QUOTE


Sorry about that, quote button is playing up again


----------



## Dr Pepper

Well, moving things forward, and because there is now no chance of remaining, we need a new name for the remainers, any suggestions? I've a few:-

Unionist (actually I think that's taken).

Losers (nope, not allowed winners and losers these days).

Europeans (not really fair on those that are though).

Ok, harder than I thought, anyone with anything better? Hold on I've got it, obvious really should have thought of it to start with - Scottish.


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I do hope it turns out badly for "Britain" due to the way May is handling it with her dictatorial no compromise approach.


What a terrible thing to say, aren't you British. Why on earth would you want things to turn out bad for everyone.
Says it all really, shame on you.
Whether you agree with how T.M. is handling things or not, she is our P.M.and we have to give her a chance, and she has a huge job in taking us out of the E.U.
She can always be voted out at the next election if were not happy.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Honeys mum said:


> What a terrible thing to say, aren't you British. Why on earth would you want things to turn out bad for everyone.
> Says it all really.
> Whether you agree with how T.M. is handling things or not, she is our P.M.and we have to give her a chance, and she has a huge job in taking us out of the E.U.
> She can always be voted out at the next election if were not happy.


In my view I cannot see what other way she could handle it - all this hard brexit/soft brexit it just stuff made up by the Press, its a simple case of in or out and agreeing terms for the future


----------



## noushka05

DoodlesRule said:


> My understanding there has never been a vote regarding the European Union - the votes in the 70's related to the Common Market which morphed into a completely different beast!
> 
> An interesting question for Remainers (from comments on the Guardian) : Do you hope that it turns out really bad and confirms what you believe, or do you hope that it turns out much better than expected, and proves you wrong?





DoodlesRule said:


> My understanding there has never been a vote regarding the European Union - the votes in the 70's related to the Common Market which morphed into a completely different beast!
> 
> An interesting question for Remainers (from comments on the Guardian) : Do you hope that it turns out really bad and confirms what you believe, or do you hope that it turns out much better than expected, and proves you wrong?


I would love to be proved wrong.

I desperately want the government to say they are leaving the red tape in place which protects our environment, workers rights & society. I desperately want them to protect the rights of EU migrants, give the money the leave campaigned promised for our NHS. Fulfil their promise on the Paris Agreement on climate change. If they do all this & come up with a better deal than we have now & they can reverse the insular, divisive society they have helped create - I would happily eat humble pie.

Unfortunately things already look grim.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> ''victims"


This is a bit strong...victims, tyrants...


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> In my view I cannot see what other way she could handle it - all this hard brexit/soft brexit it just stuff made up by the Press, its a simple case of in or out and agreeing terms for the future


Norway is NOT in the EU, they're in the EEA, likewise with Iceland.

May is not remotely interested in that compromise. The UK would still leave the EU as asked on the referendum paper and what 52% of voters voted for.

To accept that compromise May would have to accept some EU rules to remain in the single market.

She will not and demands her terms or no terms. Bloody cheek.

The threatening stance in parts of the A50 letter shows how vile and disgusting May and her government are.

Still, thinking of the positives it's reported the 27 EU nations have become closer and more united which is a good thing!

I hasten to add, whatever people think I am not anti British. I was proud of Britain being an active EU member. Now it's a country I no longer recognise.

I would say exactly the same about France if, heaven forbid Le Penn was to win.


----------



## Dr Pepper

DoodlesRule said:


> In my view I cannot see what other way she could handle it - all this hard brexit/soft brexit it just stuff made up by the Press, its a simple case of in or out and agreeing terms for the future


That's exactly correct, at this point in time there is nothing on the table, if negotiations prove fruitless then we leave the EU with no concessions. That's what we voted for. Anything Mrs May and Mr Davis can agree with the EU over the next two years is bonus.


----------



## noushka05

DoodlesRule said:


> In my view I cannot see what other way she could handle it - all this hard brexit/soft brexit it just stuff made up by the Press, its a simple case of in or out and agreeing terms for the future





Dr Pepper said:


> That's exactly correct, at this point in time there is nothing on the table, if negotiations prove fruitless then we leave the EU with no concessions. That's what we voted for. Anything Mrs May and Mr Davis can agree with the EU over the next two years is bonus.


Key leave campaigners made it clear before the referendum we wouldn't be leaving the single market. The tory party manifesto clearly stated - To "safeguard British interests in the single market."

She has no mandate to drag us out.


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> Norway is NOT in the EU, they're in the EEA, likewise with Iceland.
> 
> May is not remotely interested in that compromise. The UK would still leave the EU as asked on the referendum paper and what 52% of voters voted for.
> 
> To accept that compromise May would have to accept some EU rules to remain in the single market.
> 
> She will not and demands her terms or no terms. Bloody cheek.
> 
> The threatening stance in parts of the A50 letter shows how vile and disgusting May and her government are.
> 
> Still, thinking of the positives it's reported the 27 EU nations have become closer and more united which is a good thing!


And the UK compares with a countries as small as Iceland and Norway - I'm not going to look up population/trading figures etc because I can't be bothered! TM knows the vote leavers are not interested in that compromise either


----------



## Satori

Odin_cat said:


> I only hope that IF it all goes wrong those who voted leave have enough self respect to admit it.


How shall I know if it all goes wrong?


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I do hope it turns out badly for "Britain" due to the way May is handling it.....
> 
> Let's say May's hard Brexit turns out to be a "success". I would still be against it on principle. NOTHING would make me change my mind on that


Yes, ahem, ok, err, nothing strange about that. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.


----------



## Satori

Dr Pepper said:


> Well, moving things forward, and because there is now no chance of remaining, we need a new name for the remainers, any suggestions? I've a few:-
> 
> Unionist (actually I think that's taken).
> 
> Losers (nope, not allowed winners and losers these days).
> 
> Europeans (not really fair on those that are though).
> 
> Ok, harder than I thought, anyone with anything better? Hold on I've got it, obvious really should have thought of it to start with - Scottish.


Traitors?


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> What a terrible thing to say, aren't you British. Why on earth would you want things to turn out bad for everyone.
> Says it all really, shame on you.
> Whether you agree with how T.M. is handling things or not, she is our P.M.and we have to give her a chance, and she has a huge job in taking us out of the E.U.
> She can always be voted out at the next election if were not happy.


Yes, I read that earlier, but decided tto turn the,other cheek! I mean, seriously, isnt that the sort of response one would expect from the " so labelled" uneducated brexiter?

You couldn't make it up could you?


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> Just looked up what NF actually said, selective quoting as I suspected
> 
> I know you may find it difficult to grasp because its of importance to you, but the majority of ordinary, decent hard working people have absolutely no desire to move within the EU


My point is , if Brexit is a disaster and people decide they want to move elsewhere they have given up that right unless very rich or Farage of course.

And why the belief from some he should be given a portion in the Brexit negotiations? Some leave voters found his post referendum performance at the European Parliament vile and embarrassing.

Still it would make no difference anyway as May and her team are no better.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> :Hilarious Not a phrase loosely uttered in parliament for fear of them all hastily lining up somewhat expectantly.
> 
> I suppose I could have written Bonnie & Clyde but, for some inexplicable reason, many people tend to harbour romantic notions about the couple.
> 
> By contrast there's nothing fanciful about Charlie & Caril and I have it on good authority that the movie 'Natural Born Killers' was loosely based on the pair.
> 
> And so we enter the twilight zone...:Nailbiting


lol

OMG no, I'm picturing Warren Beatty & Faye Dunaway - those weirdos ain't no Bonnie & Cyde in my eyes:Hilarious

The twilight zone. What a perfect description - Somehow I don't think this episode is going to end well:Nailbiting.



Satori said:


> "we" ?


Obviously not you The wealthiest will reap the rewards as per.



Honeys mum said:


> For your information nosh, I do not go on the Westmonster site, that image came from another site, which just happened to have it on. Also I have never heard of or seen Breitbarts, whatever that is.
> I take that as an insult, but then what's new.!


I don't mean to offend but when you share links to Westmonster what are people supposed to think? Breitbarts is a US site - westmonster is the UK version. They are both lying mouth pieces of the far right. Check out the Bannon, Banks, Farage ,Trump connection.



Honeys mum said:


> "For those of us who believe in an independent United Kingdom, there is one man who we all owe a debt of gratitude to more than any other: Nigel Farage."
> 
> Thank you, Nigel!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers Nigel!
> Westmonster salutes Britain's Mr. Brexit.
> www.westmonster.com


Y


----------



## 1290423

Odin_cat said:


> I only hope that IF it all goes wrong those who voted leave have enough self respect to admit it. The right wing press will blame anyone but themselves, they must be held to account.


And what if the boot is on the other foot and it works out hunky dory! What happens then?
Do we all start blowing trumpets or just we just wallow in our glory, because I suspect hell will freeze over before some remainders admit brexit to be asuccess


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> ! TM knows the vote leavers are not interested in that compromise either


Really??? Has she asked every leave voter they want out of the single market too?


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Really??? Has she asked every leave voter they want out of the single market too?


TM is a pathological >>


----------



## 1290423

Hey! Guess what?-- there are still 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week. I still woke up this morning and the house was still standing, Easters not been cancelled, and the birds are still singing, the lawn needs cutting and the dog still needs walking 
Really odd, can someone please tell me whats changed?


----------



## 1290423

Oh heck! Think I may have just stumbled into another gunpowder plot


----------



## Odin_cat

DT said:


> And what if the boot is on the other foot and it works out hunky dory! What happens then?
> Do we all start blowing trumpets or just we just wallow in our glory, because I suspect hell will freeze over before some remainders admit brexit to be asuccess


I will happily admit Brexit is a success if I think it is one...there will be no need for trumpets.


----------



## Odin_cat

Satori said:


> How shall I know if it all goes wrong?


That's down to your interpretation...
Maybe if the nhs doesn't get the promised money?
Maybe if the economy deteriorates? 
Maybe if nothing changes?


----------



## noushka05

Are we... are we the baddies? (good question! )


----------



## 1290423

Odin_cat said:


> I will happily admit Brexit is a success if I think it is one...there will be no need for trumpets.


And likewise I and I suspect many others who voted to leave will admit we were wrong, should the outcome prove to be bleak a few years down the line, but no one knows for sure and we have to give it time.


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Hey! Guess what?-- there are still 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week. I still woke up this morning and the house was still standing, Easters not been cancelled, and the birds are still singing, the lawn needs cutting and the dog still needs walking
> Really odd, can someone please tell me whats changed?


Give it time lol The 'Great power grab bill' will be the nail in the coffin.


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> And likewise I and I suspect many others who voted to leave will admit we were wrong, should the outcome prove to be bleak a few years down the line, but no one knows for sure and we have to give it time.


It takes us back to that red tape they are going to rip up. We do know, Sue.


----------



## 1290423

Just Wow! The day can get no better for me

The postie just called










Xxxx


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Just Wow! The day can get no better for me
> 
> The postie just called
> 
> View attachment 304879
> 
> 
> Xxxx


So what exactly is that Jo Malone thing then? lol


----------



## Zaros

DT said:


> Just Wow! The day can get no better for me. The postie just called
> View attachment 304879
> 
> Xxxx


I'm really fond of 'Myrrh'

Couldn't really give a toss about it's fragrance or apparent healing properties, but it's a storming scrabble word when you've completely run out of vowels.:Smug


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> I'm really fond of 'Myrrh'
> 
> Couldn't really give a toss about it's fragrance or apparent healing properties, but it's a storming scrabble word when you've completely run out of vowels.:Smug


Oh is it perfume lol - fancy you knowing that:Hilarious

Is that what your Daughter bought for you Sue?


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Oh is it perfume lol - fancy you knowing that:Hilarious
> 
> Is that what your Daughter bought for you Sue?


Nope noush, I brought it her, it just came ive got a zillion bottles of the stuff noush but thats one of mine she likes , but its,to put her cheque in with for her wedding present,shall give it her the night before at the hotel, it looks better then an envelope.
She brought me another pair of joulles wellies for mothers day noush, they are lovely but didnt have the heart to tell her how many pairs I now have, you want to guess?
Xxxxxxx


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Oh is it perfume lol - fancy you knowing that:Hilarious


Fancy. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrrh

I've tried drinking most things in this life Noush' (for experimental purposes mind) and there are a few very valuable discoveries I've made along the way.
Such as Molly Malone has a very impressive and comprehensive selection of drinks than Jo does

Brut (Faberge) makes you the best street fighter for miles around

And Old Spice certainly does improve your man smells...

Even after you've had complete bowel failure.:Sorry


----------



## Guest

Good Company Brexiteers are with, I´m sure you don´t need to worry at all about facts.... better to celebrate and think that´s it. Why bother with boring facts, when you have your Trump and Putin to lookd after you. Just trust them.

In case some one isn´t quite convinced and is a bad bad loser, below are few links to read. For the real winners, here is more booze... Hope you like Russian Vodka, as that is the most approriate for this










For the boring read for losers and for you with little faith

Farage: U.S. president has "very strong moral courage." (http://time.com/4697883/nigel-farage-donald-trump-bbc/)
Farage; Well done, Bannon (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/03/29/nigel-farage-article-50-bannon-breitbart-helped/)
Farage and Trump (http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-38005983)
Farage and US right extreme wing ( https://www.buzzfeed.com/marielecon...take-over-ukip?utm_term=.afRlWLjmX#.nwq3Mw5xy)

Russians and Trump: http://putintrump.org/


----------



## 1290423

Good try noush! But a massive fail

Yes! The wonderful noushka, and staunch remainer just tried to murder me, she made me trip over a suitcase and almost fall downstairs, really! the lengths some of these remainers will go to is mind bogling

But seriously, on another note, I listened and have to say you certainly have my brain cogs ticking over such as the bees, amongst other things
Xxxxxxx


----------



## Jesthar

noushka05 said:


> Oh is it perfume lol - fancy you knowing that:Hilarious
> 
> Is that what your Daughter bought for you Sue?


Myrrh - a type of resin often used in times gone by to embalm the dead with


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> I don't mean to offend but when you share links to Westmonster what are people supposed to think? Breitbarts is a US site - westmonster is the UK version. They are both lying mouth pieces of the far right. Check out the Bannon, Banks, Farage ,Trump connection.


I don't mean to be rude(and have not been), but what part don't you understand. i have not and never will be going on those two sites you mentioned.
That particular image came off another site, so if someone else took it off westmonster not my fault.
That doesn't make me a bad person and give you the right to critisize me or make rude remarks.


----------



## Satori

Odin_cat said:


> That's down to your interpretation...
> Maybe if the nhs doesn't get the promised money?
> Maybe if the economy deteriorates?
> Maybe if nothing changes?


Yes, it is all rather down to the individual isn't it? None of those things would bother me, for example. Whatever the outcome there will be those who argue it was a success and those who argue it was a failure. And, since the only benchmark would be what would have happened had we stayed in (which nobody can ever divine) nobody will ever know objectively.

As for me, I declare it a success and shall continue to celebrate accordingly. But then, I'm a glass half full kinda guy.


----------



## noushka05

[



DT said:


> Nope noush, I brought it her, it just came ive got a zillion bottles of the stuff noush but thats one of mine she likes , but its,to put her cheque in with for her wedding present,shall give it her the night before at the hotel, it looks better then an envelope.
> She brought me another pair of joulles wellies for mothers day noush, they are lovely but didnt have the heart to tell her how many pairs I now have, you want to guess?
> Xxxxxxx


That's a lovely thing to do Sue xxx

I'm guessing your wellie count is in double figures? 



Zaros said:


> Fancy.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrrh
> 
> I've tried drinking most things in this life Noush' (for experimental purposes mind) and there are a few very valuable discoveries I've made along the way.
> Such as Molly Malone has a very impressive and comprehensive selection of drinks than Jo does
> 
> Brut (Faberge) makes you the best street fighter for miles around
> 
> And Old Spice certainly does improve your man smells...
> 
> Even after you've had complete bowel failure.:Sorry


Oh my gawd:Hilarious I've got a bottle of Poison knocking around somewhere I might give it a try, see if I can erase this brexit nightmare 












DT said:


> Good try noush! But a massive fail
> 
> Yes! The wonderful noushka, and staunch remainer just tried to murder me, she made me trip over a suitcase and almost fall downstairs, really! the lengths some of these remainers will go to is mind bogling
> 
> But seriously, on another note, I listened and have to say you certainly have my brain cogs ticking over such as the bees, amongst other things
> Xxxxxxx


LOL You muppet I've just ordered a voodoo doll off ebay so you'd better buck your ideas up missis :Woot lol

Heres the bee story - *Europe poised for total ban on bee-harming pesticides*

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...an-on-bee-harming-pesticides?CMP=share_btn_tw



Honeys mum said:


> I don't mean to be rude(and have not been), but what part don't you understand. i have not and never will be going on those two sites you mentioned.
> That particular image came off another site, so if someone else took it off westmonster not my fault.
> That doesn't make me a bad person and give you the right to critisize me or make rude remarks.


You also posted a link to westmonster - look at the bottom of your post. The people involved in sites like westmonster are bad people but I certainly don't think you are. I pointed out you were sharing fake news while at the same time criticising me for referencing links being shared by genuine experts.

l[/QUOTE]


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> Good Company Brexiteers are with, I´m sure you don´t need to worry at all about facts.... better to celebrate and think that´s it. Why bother with boring facts, when you have your Trump and Putin to lookd after you. Just trust them.
> 
> In case some one isn´t quite convinced and is a bad bad loser, below are few links to read. For the real winners, here is more booze... Hope you like Russian Vodka, as that is the most approriate for this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the boring read for losers and for you with little faith
> 
> Farage: U.S. president has "very strong moral courage." (http://time.com/4697883/nigel-farage-donald-trump-bbc/)
> Farage; Well done, Bannon (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/03/29/nigel-farage-article-50-bannon-breitbart-helped/)
> Farage and Trump (http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-38005983)
> Farage and US right extreme wing ( https://www.buzzfeed.com/marielecon...take-over-ukip?utm_term=.afRlWLjmX#.nwq3Mw5xy)
> 
> Russians and Trump: http://putintrump.org/


The very worst people want brexit - I just don't understand why this isn't ringing more alarm bells

David Duke, former Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. I don't want to live in their world.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Are we... are we the baddies? (good question! )
> 
> View attachment 304878


That's bordering on the obscene but nothing about this vile woman surprises me.

I hope the 27 member states tell her to **** off.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> The very worst people want brexit - I just don't understand why this isn't ringing more alarm bells
> 
> David Duke, former Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. I don't want to live in their world.
> 
> View attachment 304895


Sir bamford he wants it too


----------



## Calvine

Honeys mum said:


> she is our P.M.and we have to give her a chance,


I wouldn't want her job, to be honest.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> That's bordering on the obscene but nothing about this vile woman surprises me.
> 
> I hope the 27 member states tell her to **** off.


Could she bring anymore shame on us?



DT said:


> Sir bamford he wants it too


Bloody hell is that the best you can do? We really are screwed:Hilarious


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Could she bring anymore shame on us?
> 
> Bloody hell is that the best you can do? We really are screwed:Hilarious


Ok, try me DT


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> That's bordering on the obscene but nothing about this vile woman surprises me.
> 
> I hope the 27 member states tell her to **** off.


Gosh you do get hot under the collar. There are a lot of truly vile and obscene things that go on in the world, negotiating the result of a referendum - or in other words following through on the wishes of the majority of the people who bothered to vote. How is that vile and obscene? The meat and dairy industry - now that is vile and obscene


----------



## KittenKong

Surprise surprise
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...-private-dinner-daily-mail-editor-no-10#img-2


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Gosh you do get hot under the collar. There are a lot of truly vile and obscene things that go on in the world, negotiating the result of a referendum - or in other words following through on the wishes of the majority of the people who bothered to vote. How is that vile and obscene? The meat and dairy industry - now that is vile and obscene


Duh! Don't be silly rottie, that doesn't affect them, they just continue to trot along to asda for their three for a tenner meat products without a thought in the world of anything vile of obscene  But seriously leaving the eu now that's serious, the hassle of possibly having apply for visa for a their week in the sun is really going to dig into their beer money!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

All joking aside though, I am seriously getting concerned about all this doom and gloom and negativity. It isn't good for your health and will make you ill. Studies have shown that having a positive outlook is good for your health.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/optimism-and-your-health

Personality is complex, and doctors don't know if optimism is hard-wired into an individual or if a sunny disposition can be nurtured in some way. It's doubtful that McLandburgh Wilson was pondering such weighty questions when he explained optimism in 1915:

_"Twixt the optimist and pessimist
The difference is droll
The optimist sees the doughnut
But the pessimist sees the hole."_

Today's doctors don't think much of doughnuts, but they are accumulating evidence that optimism is good for health. As you await the results of new research, do your best to seek silver linings, if not doughnuts.


----------



## 1290423

Well I should be fit as a fiddle then, I've had a smile on my face and a spring in my step since June Last year!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Always look on the bright side of life 

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/y...=aac62dab1b7cd0d36ad96086e6d22d0f&action=view


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> All joking aside though, I am seriously getting concerned about all this doom and gloom and negativity. It isn't good for your health and will make you ill. Studies have shown that having a positive outlook is good for your health.
> 
> http://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/optimism-and-your-health
> 
> Personality is complex, and doctors don't know if optimism is hard-wired into an individual or if a sunny disposition can be nurtured in some way. It's doubtful that McLandburgh Wilson was pondering such weighty questions when he explained optimism in 1915:
> 
> _"Twixt the optimist and pessimist
> The difference is droll
> The optimist sees the doughnut
> But the pessimist sees the hole."_
> 
> Today's doctors don't think much of doughnuts, but they are accumulating evidence that optimism is good for health. As you await the results of new research, do your best to seek silver linings, if not doughnuts.


To be honest rottie they can all be as glum as they like, so long as I don't have to look at their miserable faces, and that I have the chance, if I chose, to neither read n or listen to the negative rants then that's fine. But what I do find alarming is the amount of people that want to see Teresa may fall flat on her face and openly wishing that everything goes wrong! Do people not realize irrespective of which way one voted we are all in this together now, it's in everyone's best interests that things don't go against her. But to wish for that, and openly so, shame on those people, one does have to question what they are really like to habour such nastiness.


----------



## Bisbow

I don't think I want to read any more nasty, treacherous posts from people who plead they want the best for their country and then say they hope Brexit is a total failure and the people are made to suffer and then hope the woman doing her job has to suffer bulling and insults from other eu leaders

This is traitorous. wicked and smacks at treason
I would never have people on this forum could be so evil minded to wish such ill luck to thier fellows


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> That's bordering on the obscene but nothing about this vile woman surprises me.
> 
> I hope the 27 member states tell her to **** off.


Really! Can you remind us what **** means please?


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> I don't think I want to read any more nasty, treacherous posts from people who plead they want the best for their country and then say they hope Brexit is a total failure and the people are made to suffer and then hope the woman doing her job has to suffer bulling and insults from other eu leaders
> 
> This is traitorous. wicked and smacks at treason
> I would never have people on this forum could be so evil minded to wish such ill luck to thier fellows


well put! Just totally shocked at some! And they call those who voted for brexit uneducated!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Surprise surprise
> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...-private-dinner-daily-mail-editor-no-10#img-2
> 
> View attachment 304903


Dunno what your moaning about, You've all been going on that she's Murdochs puppet, just goes to show you may be wrong.

Also. as it only him and him alone.......could it be just possible that they are long standing friends?


----------



## Honeys mum

Bisbow said:


> I don't think I want to read any more nasty, treacherous posts from people who plead they want the best for their country and then say they hope Brexit is a total failure and the people are made to suffer and then hope the woman doing her job has to suffer bulling and insults from other eu leaders
> 
> This is traitorous. wicked and smacks at treason
> I would never have people on this forum could be so evil minded to wish such ill luck to thier fellows


Well said Bisbow, totally agree with you. I find it quite worrying that some people can have such awful thoughts.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Surprise surprise
> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...-private-dinner-daily-mail-editor-no-10#img-2
> 
> View attachment 304903


Nothing to see here. Move along.

Former tory chairman Chris Patten nails it. You'd have to be wilfully ignorant to not see this >>


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> I don't think I want to read any more nasty, treacherous posts from people who plead they want the best for their country and then say they hope Brexit is a total failure and the people are made to suffer and then hope the woman doing her job has to suffer bulling and insults from other eu leaders
> 
> This is traitorous. wicked and smacks at treason
> I would never have people on this forum could be so evil minded to wish such ill luck to thier fellows


Its called 'freedom of speech'. There is nothing 'traitorous, wicked or smacks of treason about it. This is very dangerous language you're using Bisbow.


----------



## noushka05

And here we go.

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* 6h6 hours ago

#*GreatRepealBill* huge Gov't power grab that could undermine
40 years of environmental and social protections
with no Parliamentary scrutiny.

*cas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* 6h6 hours ago

Far from being 'technical',
#*GreatRepealBill* is huge attack on our democracy:
Gov wants unlimited power to amend law.
We will fight this.


----------



## Calvine

Honeys mum said:


> Well said Bisbow, totally agree with you. I find it quite worrying that some people can have such awful thoughts.


Me too...what is wrong with them?


----------



## Zaros

Right! That's them lying, cheating, thieving, underhanded, sneaky little 845t4rd5 out of the way.

Now the British people really can take their country back!:Smug


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Me too...what is wrong with them?


Are you more angry at someone opinion than this? The government are about to implement the biggest power grab in modern times!


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Its called 'freedom of speech'. There is nothing 'traitorous, wicked or smacks of treason about it. This is very dangerous language you're using Bisbow.


I think bisbow worded it perfectly noush freedom of speech or no freedom of speech it was traitorous, I would have actually gone further, I would have said verging on extreemism and akin to stiring up hatred given the right audience ! Lucky most of us here are civilised x


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> Its called 'freedom of speech'. There is nothing 'traitorous, wicked or smacks of treason about it. This is very dangerous language you're using Bisbow.


Freedom of speech is one thing

Vile, vitriolic ranting is another thing

I meant every word because that is what I believe


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> Freedom of speech is one thing
> 
> Vile, vitriolic ranting is another thing
> 
> I meant every word because that is what I believe


I actually thought you worded it rather eloquently,
I take it you are a gentleman


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> I think bisbow worded it perfectly noush freedom of speech or no freedom of speech it was traitorous, I would have actually gone further, I would have said verging on extreemism and akin to stiring up hatred!


You have got to be joking? The ones who lied & deceived are the only traitors. They have damaged this country beyond repair with their extreme brexit.

*Nick Robinson*‏Verified account @*bbcnickrobinson* 11h11 hours ago

Now clear why Boris kept off air this week. Leave's promises -
to get back £350m, to slash immigration & to have cake & eat it - all binned


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> Right! That's them lying, cheating, thieving, underhanded, sneaky little 845t4rd5 out of the way.
> 
> Now the British people really can take their country back!:Smug


That's just offensive, especially given the current climate.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> You have got to be joking? [/QUOTE


Me joking nope, I'm deadly serious


----------



## Bisbow

DT said:


> I actually thought you worded it rather eloquently,
> I take it you are a gentleman


THank you but you are mistaken, I am female
I won't say lady, one thing I can't really claim to be


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> That's just offensive, especially given the current climate.


Actually, I did find that hilarious taking into account I thought I'd stumbled upon the gunpowder plot earlier I was just tuning into the news channel


----------



## 1290423

Look on the bright side! 
When we wake up in the morning we will be two days closer


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> That's just offensive, especially given the current climate.


If it's offence you're looking for, real offence, I can do that.

But I doubt you'd be very impressed because it would mean you'd have to look at the truth of yourself.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Freedom of speech is one thing
> 
> Vile, vitriolic ranting is another thing
> 
> I meant every word because that is what I believe


Never mind those 'Patriots' who are about to plunder our country though.

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* 7h7 hours ago

#*GreatRepealBill* huge Gov't power grab that could undermine 40 years of environmental
and social protections with no Parliamentary scrutiny.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> If it's offence you're looking for, real offence, I can do that.
> 
> But I doubt you'd be very impressed because it would mean you'd have to look at the truth of yourself.


You have that arse-about-face. You are not as funny as you think you are, rather just juvenile and offensive.

And, from what I can gather, you don't even reside in the UK, so what's your interest, and concern, with Brexit?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Dr Pepper said:


> You have that arse-about-face. You are not as funny as you think you are, rather just juvenile and offensive.
> 
> And, from what I can gather, you don't even reside in the UK, so what's your interest, and concern, with Brexit?


 Plenty of people don't currently reside in the UK but still have interest and concern about what happens in the future. I don't think @Zaros is unique in that respect. I might not agree with all of his opinions but I would defend his right to hold and express them whether he lives here or not.


----------



## Dr Pepper

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Plenty of people don't currently reside in the UK but still have interest and concern about what happens in the future. I don't think @Zaros is unique in that respect. I might not agree with all of his opinions but I would defend his right to hold and express them whether he lives here or not.


That's fair enough, but to take humour from terrorism, particularly given recent events, isn't funny.

He/she can have their opinions, but keep them tasteful and not juvenile.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> That's fair enough, but to take humour from terrorism, particularly given recent events, isn't funny.
> 
> He/she can have their opinions, but keep them tasteful and not juvenile.


I take it you're not a fan of Mock the Week, or Have I Got News For You, or The Last Leg, or Achmed the Dead Terrorist then? Or even Blackadder, come to that or anything else remotely satirical? 

Finding humour in tragedy is one of the great British - and human - survival mechanisms. And also extremely important psychologically, if you have any interest in that kind of thing.

As someone who would prefer not to leave the EU, I find myself in much disagreement with the extremely hard like Brexit route being pursued, and find myself unable to get behind it for many reasons.

I also freely admit I am not one of natures natural optimists. However, neither am I a pessimist. I usually fall more or less in the middle, with the potential to swing one way or the other on certain topics under certain circumstances. Generally, that leaves me in the position of being a realist.

Now, do I want Brexit to be a failure and people to suffer? No, definitely not. This is my land and my people.

Do I _expect _Brexit to be a wild and runaway success, though? No, definitely not - it would be nice, of course, but I don't see it happening barring an outright miracle. The last time we stood alone politically, we weren't really alone as we had the Empire. That is long gone, the world has shifted and changed, and we do not enjoy anywhere near the power and influence we once had. Nor do we have many bargaining chips to bring to the table, if we are honest - we need the outside world a lot more than it needs us. That's not unpatriotic, that's just how it is.

Now, IF our leaders and representatives conduct themselves with decorum, wisdom and integrity, and play they limited hand they have very well, and also at least adopt and even strengthen EU legislation regarding essential things such as workers rights, the environment etc., we might end up with something that is OK - providing the outside world has enough goodwill towards us to be inclined to be generous. Judging from the showing so far, I'm not filled with confidence right now, and this outcome is logically unlikely.

Bearing all that in mind, I think it is also logically unlikely that many new trade deals will be as good as the ones we currently enjoy via the EU. We won't even have any for a while after the two years is up, of course, as we are not allowed to open any negotiations before then. Not having any trade deals is not going to be helpful to the economy at all, of course, so speed of agreement is probably going to be the main focus. And, again, we need what the outside world can provide more than they need what we have, so logically it will often be the case that the outside world will have the driving seat in the negotiations.

Now, do I want to see Theresa May fall flat on her face (metaphorically speaking, of course)? Well maybe not, but I can definitely see the case for someone giving her a good slapping down. I'm not sure what image she is trying to project, or if she's trying to channel Thatcher, but she's coming across as a juvenile playground bully rather than a senior authority figure, and maybe a thorough squishing will take the empty bluster out of her sails and make her realise how shallow she must appear to much of the rest of the world.

And none of that is unpatriotic, either. It's just how it is. If it's not positive enough for some, then I'm sorry. However, I would rather follow the old wisdom of still hoping for the best whilst preparing for the worst, as opposed to expecting the grass to sprout greener and being caught out if it doesn't.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Are you more angry at someone opinion than this?


We are just commenting that being vitriolic isn't helping anything...saying how they look forward to sitting back and watching it fail...etc...etc. Good luck to them if that's how they get their kicks!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Meanwhile our frontier is coming to standstill.

Spain does what the want and Britain is powerless.


On another note: If Britain did the decent thing...even Farage of all clowns supports it! Given the EU citizens protection, then EU talks would have much better start.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Are you more angry at someone opinion than this? The government are about to implement the biggest power grab in modern times!
> 
> View attachment 304910
> 
> 
> View attachment 304909


Good God. So much for taking the country back 60 years.

More like 500-600 years.

Still, May and the monarchy have something in common.

They're not elected by the public.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> We are just commenting that being vitriolic isn't helping anything...saying how they look forward to sitting back and watching it fail...etc...etc. Good luck to them if that's how they get their kicks!


Not getting kicks out of it at all. I'd rather this wasn't happening.

Conversely I'm sure some hardened Brexiteers are enjoying seeing May and co. making enemies with former allies and friends.


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> You are not as funny as you think you are, rather just juvenile and offensive.
> *
> And, from what I can gather, you don't even reside in the UK, so what's your interest, and concern, with Brexit*?


Something is quite obviously stuck in your craw because this is not the first time you've targeted me for my _'sense of humour'_
A little fact that actually makes you quite juvenile, not I, simply because I don't pursue the same people around these boards looking for an opportunity to incite an argument with them.

However, it also strikes me that you appear familiarly like another character here who thinks along those same lines as you do.
They too, firmly believe I have no right to pass an opinion/comment on matters regarding anything British/UK because I don't live in the country.
This character also passed the same conclusion about MrsZee, although I'm sure that was merely an attempt to provoke a reaction from me.

It might be worth noting, by yourself that is, to avoid any accusation of you being persecutory and/or discriminatory, you should ensure to spread that same message/opinion amongst all those other members who do not reside in the UK.

Failing that, PF's has provided each and every member with a little facility known as the_ 'ignore button'
_
The choice is entirely yours_.:Smug
_
Hmm?  upon quick reflection, my suspicions tell me you'll opt for the ignore..:Hilarious

Bye.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> Something is quite obviously stuck in your craw because this is not the first time you've targeted me for my _'sense of humour'_
> A little fact that actually makes you quite juvenile, not I, simply because I don't pursue the same people around these boards looking for an opportunity to incite an argument with them.
> 
> However, it also strikes me that you appear familiarly like another character here who thinks along those same lines as you do.
> They too, firmly believe I have no right to pass an opinion/comment on matters regarding anything British/UK because I don't live in the country.
> This character also passed the same conclusion about MrsZee, although I'm sure that was merely an attempt to provoke a reaction from me.
> 
> It might be worth noting, by yourself that is, to avoid any accusation of you being persecutory and/or discriminatory, you should ensure to spread that same message/opinion amongst all those other members who do not reside in the UK.
> 
> Failing that, PF's has provided each and every member with a little facility known as the_ 'ignore button'
> _
> The choice is entirely yours_.:Smug
> _
> Hmm?  upon quick reflection, my suspicions tell me you'll opt for the ignore..:Hilarious
> 
> Bye.


Being a adult I don't need a button to ignore someone's posts!!

No, your right, I don't generally find your sense of humour funny, sorry if that causes you offence.

And it was a genuine question as to what your interest in Brexit is? I never said you weren't entitled to an opinion, it's mostly a free world we live in. Are you an expat?


----------



## Zaros

Jesthar said:


> I take it you're not a fan of Mock the Week, or Have I Got News For You, or The Last Leg, or Achmed the Dead Terrorist then? Or even Blackadder, come to that or anything else remotely satirical?
> 
> Finding humour in tragedy is one of the great British - and human - survival mechanisms. And also extremely important psychologically, if you have any interest in that kind of thing.


But comedy is a dangerous subject now. Apparently, we appear to have entered into morally serious times and the morally righteous, who have anxiously herded most of us there, would like nothing more than to see the death of such 'meaningless entertainment'.

In future everyone will be equal.

Equally miserable because there'll be nothing left for us to laugh about.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> But comedy is a dangerous subject now. Apparently, we appear to have entered into morally serious times and the morally righteous, who have anxiously herded most of us there, would like nothing more than to see the death of such 'meaningless entertainment'.
> 
> In future everyone will be equal.
> 
> Equally miserable because there'll be nothing left for us to laugh about.


In future we will have Murdoch media .


----------



## KittenKong

This forum can be accessed globally. There's certainly no clause in the Forum rules that prohibits people living overseas from commenting on UK matters.

Using that argument perhaps UK citizens should mind their own business regarding Trump's Presidency, whether for or against.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> We are just commenting that being vitriolic isn't helping anything...saying how they look forward to sitting back and watching it fail...etc...etc. Good luck to them if that's how they get their kicks!


Bisbows post was a personal attack & by far the most vitriolic on here. So as you evaded my question I take the governments power grab doesn't concern you as much as KKs post.


----------



## noushka05

From the Dutch press: brexit based on lies, manipulation and racist incitement.

"Britain is no longer a serious country."


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> In future we will have Murdoch media .


And no internet neutrality...................


----------



## KittenKong

Zaros said:


> And no internet neutrality...................


Yeah, funny how Davis strongly opposed the snooper's charter when the last Labour government proposed it.

One rule for the Tories.......


----------



## noushka05

rottiepointerhouse said:


> All joking aside though, I am seriously getting concerned about all this doom and gloom and negativity. It isn't good for your health and will make you ill. Studies have shown that having a positive outlook is good for your health.
> 
> http://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/optimism-and-your-health
> 
> Personality is complex, and doctors don't know if optimism is hard-wired into an individual or if a sunny disposition can be nurtured in some way. It's doubtful that McLandburgh Wilson was pondering such weighty questions when he explained optimism in 1915:
> 
> _"Twixt the optimist and pessimist
> The difference is droll
> The optimist sees the doughnut
> But the pessimist sees the hole."_
> 
> Today's doctors don't think much of doughnuts, but they are accumulating evidence that optimism is good for health. As you await the results of new research, do your best to seek silver linings, if not doughnuts.


Can you find me a silver lining in this please?

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* 19h19 hours ago

#*GreatRepealBill* huge Gov't power grab that could undermine
40 years of environmental and social protections
with no Parliamentary scrutiny

Far from being 'technical',
#*GreatRepealBill* is huge attack on our
democracy: Gov wants unlimited power to amend law.
We will fight this.

or this -

Climate-change sceptics say they should have right to 'mislead public' because of free speech


----------



## 1290423

I propose now is perhaps the time to have a ..........



Sing song


----------



## Zaros

DT said:


> I propose now is perhaps the time to have a ..........
> 
> 
> Sing song








"All You Need Is Love"

Love, love, love
Love, love, love
Love, love, love

There's nothing you can do that can't be done
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy

Nothing you can make that can't be made
No one you can save that can't be saved
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time
It's easy

All you need is love
All you need is love
All you need is love, love
Love is all you need

Love, love, love
Love, love, love
Love, love, love

All you need is love
All you need is love
All you need is love, love
Love is all you need

Nothing you can know that isn't known
Nothing you can see that isn't shown
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
It's easy

All you need is love
All you need is love
All you need is love, love
Love is all you need

All you need is love (All together, now!)
All you need is love (Everybody!)
All you need is love, love
Love is all you need
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Yee-hai! (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)

Yesterday (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Love is all you need (Love is all you need)
Oh yeah! (Love is all you need)
She loves you, yeah yeah yeah (Love is all you need)
She loves you, yeah yeah yeah (Love is all you need)
​


----------



## KittenKong

Well, May's obsession with reducing immigration seems to be working:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...umber-european-staff-quit-nhs-brexit-eu#img-1
















Hmmm.... Weren't the voters told immigrants scrounge of the state and clutter up the NHS???


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Bisbows post was a personal attack & by far the most vitriolic on here. So as you evaded my question I take the governments power grab doesn't concern you as much as KKs post.


I have found no posts, that even graze the surface of being anywhere near the description you suggest.
KK, on the other hand, now their rants
To wish for a bad outcome! Is that the behavoiur of a normal well balanced human being?


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> I have found no posts by bisbow, that even graze the surface of being anywhere near the description you suggest.
> KK, on the other hand, now their rants
> Cant say the same for those!


I'm sorry Sue, but I couldn't disagree more. Bisbow's was a personal attack, KKs was not.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Well, May's obsession with reducing immigration seems to be working:
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...umber-european-staff-quit-nhs-brexit-eu#img-1
> View attachment 304939
> View attachment 304940
> 
> 
> Hmmm.... Weren't the voters told immigrants scrounge of the state and clutter up the NHS???


Immigrants were a clever distraction while they abolish the most precious thing we have.

Funny how the government found £60Billon to set aside for brexit - They couldn't find any money to save our NHS though. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...statements-free-speech-plea-mps-a7657951.html

Can you imagine voting for this?


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Bisbows post was a personal attack & by far the most vitriolic on here. So as you evaded my question I take the governments power grab doesn't concern you as much as KKs post.


People often resort to this if they can't convince others to their way of thinking. Like May and her press, they try to make others feel guilty for not getting behind "their country", even referring them as enemies or Britain haters.

Well, I don't fit in to the category of detesting anything, or anyone who isn't British.

I was brought up to, "Love thy neighbour as thyself".


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> I'm sorry Sue, but I couldn't disagree more. Bisbow's was a personal attack, KKs was not.


KK wishing bad for the whole country then is not personal but acceptable?


----------



## KittenKong

Seems they've learned nothing from the Iraq War.

Again, one rule for the Tories......https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-eu-michael-fallon-nato-james-mattis-meeting


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> KK wishing bad for the whole country then is not personal but acceptable?


Wishes don't make any difference to anything though, do they? Its the government people should be holding to account Sue, they KNOW we are going to worse off, they are damaging our country beyond repair - who are the real traitors?. Just look at what they are now saying & doing.


----------



## noushka05

The New Yorker is brutal: "May's speech was filled with so many false claims... it is hard to know where to begin."
*
Theresa May's Empty Brexit Promises*

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/theresa-mays-empty-brexit-promises?mbid=social_twitter


----------



## Bisbow

Thank you DT but it appears that wishing the whole country to fail is fine by the remainers

Whilst stating that the post was, to say the least distasteful and the worst treason is wrong

Are the remainers the only ones with the right to insult and call people names

I don't give a damn what they think of me personally but to call for everybody to suffer because that did not get what they wanted is childish beyond belief


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Well, May's obsession with reducing immigration seems to be working:
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...umber-european-staff-quit-nhs-brexit-eu#img-1


Not according to the official figures
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/register/search_stats.asp

None or very few seem to have left as yet 9 months in. There was quite a dip however after 2014, don't know what that was about, maybe they were being poached by better offers elsewhere


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Seems they've learned nothing from the Iraq War.
> 
> Again, one rule for the Tories......https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-eu-michael-fallon-nato-james-mattis-meeting
> View attachment 304946
> View attachment 304947


This is about defence not war, the USA have always been our ally, the EU not so much. Even in my lifetime and while we were in the process of joining, they were sending missiles to an enemy that killed our soldiers.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Thank you DT but it appears that wishing the whole country to fail is fine by the remainers
> 
> Whilst stating that the post was, to say the least distasteful and the worst treason is wrong
> 
> Are the remainers the only ones with the right to insult and call people names
> 
> I don't give a damn what they think of me personally but to call for everybody to suffer because that did not get what they wanted is childish beyond belief


Millions of people are really suffering *right now* because of tory austerity - brexit will exacerbate that suffering, many more people will suffer. And that is hardly KKs fault as he voted remain


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> maybe they were being poached by better offers elsewhere


And who can blame them? If it was me I wouldn't want to reside in a country that didn't appreciate me or scapegoat me as a "problem".


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> And who can blame them? If it was me I wouldn't want to reside in a country that didn't appreciate me or scapegoat me as a "problem".


For goodness sake don't you read........that was *2014*, none or virtually none have left in the last year


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> Millions of people are really suffering *right now* because of tory austerity - brexit will exacerbate that suffering, many more people will suffer. And that is hardly KKs fault as he voted remain


But still wanted to see the WHOLE country to suffer no matter how he voted, very commendable I'm sure


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> This is about defence not war, the USA have always been our ally, the EU not so much. Even in my lifetime and while we were in the process of joining, they were sending missiles to an enemy that killed our soldiers.


Really? Don't some love a good war? The Falklands could have been prevented but look what it did for Thatcher's fortunes thanks to how the press and TV covered it.
I'm surprised they didn't drag Hughie Green out for the occasion.

Had the Falklands happened under Tony Blair it would have been a different matter.

They love the term "Defence", it "justified" the "war on terror" didn't it.

Yes, you're probably right about some EU nation's contribution towards arms, but didn't the UK do this too?


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> But still wanted to see the WHOLE country to suffer no matter how he voted, very commendable I'm sure


The whole country will suffer - but not because of someones hopes, dreams, wishes - they make not a jot of difference in reality. You can't really 'talk the country down' you know. The whole country will suffer for brexit - that's why KK is so passionately against it Bisbow .


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Really? Don't some love a good war? The Falklands could have been prevented but look what it did for Thatcher's fortunes thanks to how the press and TV covered it.
> I'm surprised they didn't drag Hughie Green out for the occasion.
> 
> Had the Falklands happened under Tony Blair it would have been a different matter.
> 
> They love the term "Defence", it "justified" the "war on terror" didn't it.
> 
> Yes, you're probably right about some EU nation's contribution towards arms, but didn't the UK do this too?


The difference with the Falklands is it was British and Blairs war was about oil. 
Cheeky will get this, what would Gibraltar want us to do if Spain tried to invade? Protect them of course.

When has the UK armed a country that's actually at war with an ally?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

="rona, post:
Cheeky will get this, what would Gibraltar want us to do if Spain tried to invade? Protect them of course.
---------------------------------------


Hmmm..... I feared this possibility in the event of a leave victory actually but didn't want to say it.

While Spain are in the EU this gives great hope. If the EU was to collapse (it won't despite the efforts of Farage and co.), it would be another matter.

Was voting to leave the EU really worth it?

As for your comments on the Falklands Blair openly said he would have done the same as Thatcher. My point is the right wing press and TV wouldn't have shown him the support Thatcher received.

Beside what you called "Blair's war" actually wasn't. It was America's war he, as a typical UK PM does regardless of political attire, bending over backwards to please the Americans by enthusiastically getting involved....


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Can you find me a silver lining in this please?


Yes.

At least it is a Tory government grabbing the power.

See, it is easy when you try.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> The difference with the Falklands is it was British and Blairs war was about oil.
> Cheeky will get this, what would Gibraltar want us to do if Spain tried to invade? Protect them of course.
> 
> When has the UK armed a country that's actually at war with an ally?


We'll sell arms to ANYONE. The tories have made us the 2nd biggest arms dealer on the planet.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> For goodness sake don't you read........that was *2014*, none or virtually none have left in the last year


Who's to say they won't be asked to leave at some point if they don't voluntarily? If you recall the Tory party conference last year there was talk of training more "British" staff to "replace" or "reduce" the need for overseas staff.

At the end of the day neither me or you really know what's going through the minds of "non British" staff at the moment.


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> Seems they've learned nothing from the Iraq War.
> Again, one rule for the Tories......https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-eu-michael-fallon-nato-james-mattis-meeting
> View attachment 304946
> View attachment 304947


Civil Defence = Preparing for War.

And this is what should truly be considered 'offensive'. The war machine being constantly fed by taxpayers money. Politicians supporting wars based on nothing but conspired lies intended to deceive us, and Britain, like the dutiful little puppet she is to America, sending her own children into war zones created by the American Government, the single most rapacious superpower on the face of this earth.

During an interview, Charles Lewis (Centre for public integrity, Washington) and a representative of our so called 'ally' said on camera;

_'We don't really give a damn what anybody thinks. We rub everyone's face in it. We're Americans and you're not. We're talking the Roman Empire here.
We'll do anything we want to do, anywhere we want to do it and you're either with us or against us. Multilateral institutions like the U.N are incidental and irrelevant to the powers that be, and that is the image we are sending to the world, that is what much of the world feels about this country'

'We will confront those who challenge the dominance of the USA'. Only military dominance will protect America's commercial interests.' _Ash Carter, former secretary of defence.
.
If I had a 'friend' who was as openly out of control and aggressive as this, I'd have the lunatic imprisoned for the safety of everyone.


----------



## KittenKong

Zaros said:


> Civil Defence = Preparing for War.
> 
> And this is what should truly be considered 'offensive'. The war machine being constantly fed by taxpayers money. Politicians supporting wars based on nothing but conspired lies intended to deceive us, and Britain, like the dutiful little puppet she is to America, sending her own children into war zones created by the American Government, the single most rapacious superpower on the face of this earth.
> 
> During an interview, Charles Lewis (Centre for public integrity, Wahington) and a representative of our so called 'ally' said on camera;
> 
> _'We don't really give a damn what anybody thinks. We rub everyone's face in it. We're Americans and you're not. We're talking the Roman Empire here.
> We'll do anything we want to do, anywhere we want to do it and you're either with us or against us. Multilateral institutions like the U.N are incidental and irrelevant to the powers that be, and that is the image we are sending to the world, that is what much of the world feels about this country'
> 
> 'We will confront those who challenge the dominance of the USA'. Only military dominance will protect America's commercial interests.' _Ash Carter, former secretary of defence.
> .
> If I had a 'friend' who was as openly out of control and aggressive as this, I'd have the lunatic imprisoned for the safety of everyone.


My thoughts exactly.

Didn't Trump tell May other EU countries are, "Ill prepared for war", or words to that effect?

Chilling.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Actually in a cynical way I'm looking forward to the 27 member states giving May and co a hard time, and the amount of leavers protesting on losing their jobs and/or no longer able to afford holidays abroad as examples.





KittenKong said:


> Not getting kicks out of it at all. I'd rather this wasn't happening.


That's not what you said earlier...you are so determined to be negative you are forgetting what you previously said. I refer to your two totally conflicting comments. For those of you who feel this thread is becoming pointless and want it closed: I think one's best option is simply to stop posting unless people can be more adult..


----------



## Bisbow

Calvine said:


> That's not what you said earlier...you are so determined to be negative you are forgetting what you previously said. I refer to your two totally conflicting comments. For those of you who feel this thread is becoming pointless and want it closed: I think one's best option is simply to stop posting unless people can be more adult..


You are so right
I think I will follow your advice


----------



## KittenKong

The Beatles "All You Need is Love".

First record played by Radio Caroline after midnight on 25th August 1967 on the implementation of the Marine Offences Act which silenced the other stations.

As relevant today as it was fifty years ago.

On that subject:

"Loving Awareness is a simple concept,

"Just treat people in a loving way, a positive way,

"And in return, they'll give you all the love in the world"


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> My point exactly.
> 
> Didn't Trump tell May other EU countries are, "Ill prepared for war", or words to that effect?
> 
> Chilling.


America has ensured its military dominance by plunging itself into crippling debt.
The American Government have, for a number of decades, firmly believed that a controlled nuclear war can be waged in the arena which would be limited to Europe.
Its ideology of 'Full Spectrum Dominance' is almost complete and its strategically positioned military bases around the globe, including those encompassing the arena of Europe cannot be denied or disputed.

America can, if it so chose to, launch an attack on any part of the world from any part of the world it so chooses to.

Who needs 'imaginary' enemies when you're 'friendly' neighbours are as hostile as this.


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> I think I will follow your advice


I think I will follow my own, too. There are not that many people posting; it's the same ones and the same comments and vitriol. I think it may end up with just the Chuckle Brothers posting (I actually doubt they would miss us!).


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> That's not what you said earlier...you are so determined to be negative you are forgetting what you previously said. I refer to your two totally conflicting comments. For those of you who feel this thread is becoming pointless and want it closed: I think one's best option is simply to stop posting unless people can be more adult..


Perhaps you think I should be silenced for having conflicting views to Brexiteers and be barred from posting until persuaded to that way of thinking!

You didn't honestly believe the entire UK would rejoice in a patriotic glory did you?

As things stand, we are still entitled to our opinions and the right to express them, just as you are.

I am not determined to be negative. I'm taking comfort in the EU recognising half the population didn't vote for this.

Sorry though, I can't be the slightest bit optimistic about something that goes against my beliefs.

It cripples me to see this government potentially making enemies out of former friends and allies. It doesn't have to be like this.

I don't believe in results through bullying and intimidation. I believe in earning respect and preparing to compromise where necessary.

I want Britain to remain an active member within the EU. I know that's not going to happen which is why they should be attempting damage limitation and compromise.

That doesn't make one anti British.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps you think I should be silenced for having conflicting views to Brexiteers and be barred from posting until persuaded to that way of thinking!


You are just being ridiculous now. You have your opinions; all I am saying is that if you wish to be taken seriously you must endeavour not to contradict yourself. Some of us have really good memories. ''I should be silenced''...how terribly dramatic! You really are full of it aren't you? ''Barred from posting''...another piece of nonsense. Victims...tyrants...oh dear oh dear.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> That doesn't make one anti British.


I did not say you were anti-British tho'.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well I hate to burst the remainers bubble on here as they are hoping the UK gets a hard time from the negotiations, Donald Tusk this morning said the EU want an agreement on the terms of the UK leaving, they aren't seeking to punish the UK and a trade deal can be reached once the agreement to leave has been agreed upon and Donald Tusk has agreed the EU want an orderly smooth exit for the UK.

So the leavers dream of punishment isn't going to happen.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> You are just being ridiculous now. You have your opinions; all I am saying is that if you wish to be taken seriously you must endeavour not to contradict yourself. Some of us have really good memories. ''I should be silenced''...how terribly dramatic! You really are full of it aren't you? ''Barred from posting''...another piece of nonsense. Victims...tyrants...oh dear oh dear.


No one is perfect though are they. I don't consider myself any better nor worse than anyone regardless where they are in the world. I have no time for those that do, even if they share my personal views.

If any of my posts have been interpreted this way it wasn't my intention. I'm just a passionate person who wants love and peace in the world.

As for conflicting views from time to time I'm certainly not the only one.

I believe May and 70% of her cabinet are the biggest offenders of all, having warned about voting for Brexit which will now be the best thing in the world apparently, or words to that effect.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I did not say you were anti-British tho'.


You're right, you didn't.


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps you think I should be silenced for having conflicting views to Brexiteers and be barred from posting until persuaded to that way of thinking.
> That doesn't make one anti British.


I always thought the British prided themselves on being able to speak their minds and were respectful of the right for others to do so too.
I'm familiar with a number of people who moved to Britain from countries were such privileges were denied them and, no doubt, they would consider it a terrible stroke of irony if that right had to be forfeited all over again, just because their views were found to be unfavourable.

I can't imagine a world in which everyone was prohibited from speaking their minds, diminished to such insignificance, the rulers and owners could then get away with all sorts of abominations because no one would ever be any the wiser to why thousands were sleep walking to oblivion.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Deleted.


----------



## KittenKong

I don't wish to promote this vile "news"paper in any way but couldn't ignore this disgusting editorial that is clearly promoting division and hatred.

Just look at some of the comments too! Courtesy of the Mail site.

I get the impression Germans who disagreed with Hitler must have been subjected to similar.





































Clearly, the paper fear an upsurge in Liberal Democrat support.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Well I hate to burst the remainers bubble on here as they are hoping the UK gets a hard time from the negotiations, Donald Tusk this morning said the EU want an agreement on the terms of the UK leaving, they aren't seeking to punish the UK and a trade deal can be reached once the agreement to leave has been agreed upon and Donald Tusk has agreed the EU want an orderly smooth exit for the UK.
> 
> *So the leavers dream of punishment isn't going to happen.*


*Who has ever said that, I know I haven't. I have never dreamed of a punishment from the EU and I strongly object to you thinking I do. *
*All I have said is, it's not going to be as easy as some people think!!!*


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

@KittenKong you will make yourself ill if you keep this up for the next two years. No one is trying to silence you or get you banned, I've repeatedly defended the right for leave voters to march/demonstrate and of course express their opinions but this is a sore that is never going to heal if you constantly pick at every little thing the government or the media say. Let them negotiate and see what they come up with then judge. Seriously who care what the Daily Mail or their readers think?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well I hate to burst the remainers bubble on here as they are hoping the UK gets a hard time from the negotiations, Donald Tusk this morning said the EU want an agreement on the terms of the UK leaving, they aren't seeking to punish the UK and a trade deal can be reached once the agreement to leave has been agreed upon and Donald Tusk has agreed the EU want an orderly smooth exit for the UK.
> 
> So the leavers dream of punishment isn't going to happen.


You missed this bit

"the EU will not pursue a punitive approach … Brexit itself is already punitive enough".

If only our government had as much decency as Donald Tusk.


----------



## noushka05

Anyone still believe we'll be better off?.

*Anna Soubry MP*‏Verified [email protected]*Anna_Soubry* Mar 30

David Davis now says @*BBCr4today* "exact same benefits" is an
ambition not a promise.
Glad he cleared that up...


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well I hate to burst the remainers bubble on here as they are hoping the UK gets a hard time from the negotiations, Donald Tusk this morning said the EU want an agreement on the terms of the UK leaving, they aren't seeking to punish the UK and a trade deal can be reached once the agreement to leave has been agreed upon and Donald Tusk has agreed the EU want an orderly smooth exit for the UK.
> 
> So the leavers dream of punishment isn't going to happen.


Who said anything about the EU wanting to "punish" the UK?. That really would be playing into May's hands wouldn't it as that would be sinking down to her level. The EU are better than that.

What the EU have said is, they don't wish to punish Britain, yet they don't want them to gain advantages through leaving either.

So, in other words, May's "best possible deal" at its best will be inferior to that had the UK remained in the EU/EEA area.

Unfortunately having seen how May has behaved towards Scotland this should not be condoned when discussing the exit deal and possible trade deals with the EU.

I have no wish to see the UK "punished" but I don't want them to think they can succeed through threats and bullying either.

The right to walk away from negotiations with no deal works both ways.


----------



## noushka05

.


rottiepointerhouse said:


> Gosh you do get hot under the collar. There are a lot of truly vile and obscene things that go on in the world, negotiating the result of a referendum - or in other words following through on the wishes of the majority of the people who bothered to vote. How is that vile and obscene? The meat and dairy industry - now that is vile and obscene


I'll leave it to Yvette Cooper to answer your question.

_
"No. We're Britain. We don't do this. We don't threaten to ignore
terror attacks for free trade. 
We don't threaten lives for a customs deal"_


----------



## Colliebarmy

Everyone seems to forget the UK is a massive market FOR the EU, we import 50% (in value) than we export (based on EU only trade)

Check your car park at Tesco's... where did the cars come from? BMW, AUDI, VW, Skoda, Seat, Fiat, Porsche, Citroen, Peugeot, now lets think... shall the EU stop selling them here?....


----------



## Colliebarmy

AND............the EU is only 16% of the global market


----------



## Colliebarmy

AND.... on the subject of cars

Honda, Nissan and Toyota do at least have factories making cars here, BMW have the Mini plant and the engine factory, but proper BMW's arent built here


----------



## Zaros

Colliebarmy said:


> AND.... on the subject of cars proper BMW's arent built here


Proper BMWs?

You mean there are BMWs cruising around that are made up of spurious parts imported from China?

Anyways, how silly, that's like saying, Toyotas built in England aren't proper Toyotas.:Wacky


----------



## DoodlesRule

Colliebarmy said:


> Everyone seems to forget the UK is a massive market FOR the EU, we import 50% (in value) than we export (based on EU only trade)
> 
> Check your car park at Tesco's... where did the cars come from? BMW, AUDI, VW, Skoda, Seat, Fiat, Porsche, Citroen, Peugeot, now lets think... shall the EU stop selling them here?....


Apparently the percentage differs depending upon whose figures are used and how interpreted - www.fullfact.org for anyone interested.

The figure I feel is most pertinent is regarding the individual countries within the EU and their trade with the UK - Germany is the biggest exporter so why would they want to impose harsh trading agreements to damage themselves


----------



## KittenKong

Colliebarmy said:


> AND.... on the subject of cars
> 
> Honda, Nissan and Toyota do at least have factories making cars here, BMW have the Mini plant and the engine factory, but proper BMW's arent built here


Yes that's true but wouldn't a genuine UK car maker be better than having to rely on far away manufacturers using the UK as a base to export their assembled products across Europe, some of which are making noises about the possibility of moving elsewhere in the future?

Yes, we know about the British Leyland disaster but seeing Germany for example still has a genuine car industry they must be doing something right.

The British could have learnt a lot from them.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> .
> 
> I'll leave it to Yvette Cooper to answer your question.
> 
> _
> "No. We're Britain. We don't do this. We don't threaten to ignore
> terror attacks for free trade.
> We don't threaten lives for a customs deal"_
> 
> View attachment 304976


The shocking thing about this is terrorism has nothing to do with the EU, nor Brexit for that matter.

Following the horrendous Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris Cameron was one of the first to show solidarity with Paris, along with other EU leaders.

Is May really suggesting, "We couldn't care less about you as long as we're ok"?

Sounds like it to me.

A disgusting way to treat your former friends.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Is May really suggesting, "We couldn't care less about you as long as we're ok"?


No, where did you get that from?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> No, where did you get that from?


That was a question, not printed as a fact.

Not my words:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...uropean-diplomats-threat-security-cooperation






























Like on a public forum like this, playing devils advocate here, words can be misinterpreted by others and/or seen in bad taste.

May should have the decency to personally apologise unreservedly if her words were indeed misinterpreted.


----------



## KittenKong

Again, not my own words.
Comments on the petitions to allow UK citizens voluntary EU citizenship.

https://www.change.org/p/eu-offer-european-citizenship-to-uk-citizens?source_location=minibar


----------



## shadowmare

KittenKong said:


> That was a question, not printed as a fact.
> 
> Not my words:
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...uropean-diplomats-threat-security-cooperation
> View attachment 304982
> View attachment 304983
> View attachment 304984
> View attachment 304985
> 
> 
> Like on a public forum like this, playing devils advocate here, words can be misinterpreted by others and/or seen in bad taste.
> 
> May should have the decency to personally apologise unreservedly if her words were indeed misinterpreted.


Nah... after all, everyone's heads on this island are just bargaining chips


----------



## noushka05

Colliebarmy said:


> Everyone seems to forget the UK is a massive market FOR the EU, we import 50% (in value) than we export (based on EU only trade)
> 
> Check your car park at Tesco's... where did the cars come from? BMW, AUDI, VW, Skoda, Seat, Fiat, Porsche, Citroen, Peugeot, now lets think... shall the EU stop selling them here?....





Colliebarmy said:


> AND.... on the subject of cars
> 
> Honda, Nissan and Toyota do at least have factories making cars here, BMW have the Mini plant and the engine factory, but proper BMW's arent built here














DoodlesRule said:


> Apparently the percentage differs depending upon whose figures are used and how interpreted - www.fullfact.org for anyone interested.
> 
> The figure I feel is most pertinent is regarding the individual countries within the EU and their trade with the UK - Germany is the biggest exporter so why would they want to impose harsh trading agreements to damage themselves


Its up to 27 member states to agree terms. They aren't going to allow free trade without free movement. So we'll never get as good a deal as we had.



KittenKong said:


> The shocking thing about this is terrorism has nothing to do with the EU, nor Brexit for that matter.
> 
> Following the horrendous Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris Cameron was one of the first to show solidarity with Paris, along with other EU leaders.
> 
> Is May really suggesting, "We couldn't care less about you as long as we're ok"?
> 
> Sounds like it to me.
> 
> A disgusting way to treat your former friends.


Terrible. And did you hear Donald Tusk say he already missed us already when she triggered Article 50? I felt choked up & this is the contempt this government shows our neighbours.


----------



## DoodlesRule

shadowmare said:


> Nah... after all, everyone's heads on this island are just bargaining chips


Have a look at the Guardian headline, seems the EU showing their true colours by using Gibraltar


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> No, where did you get that from?


She is prepared to gamble with the security of her own people.

There is a "real risk that any new arrangements... when the UK leaves the EU will... [leave] the people of the United Kingdom less safe."


----------



## shadowmare

KittenKong said:


> Again, not my own words.
> Comments on the petitions to allow UK citizens voluntary EU citizenship.
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/eu-offer-european-citizenship-to-uk-citizens?source_location=minibar
> 
> View attachment 304988
> View attachment 304989
> View attachment 304990
> View attachment 304991
> View attachment 304992


Hmmm... it's funny though, because any time the EU people try to complain about the situation they're finding themselves in UK, they are being told "Well then go and apply for a real citizenship if you want to stay in UK". So... while people who are wanting to happily retire and live in EU with their properties on French or Spanish coast go signing petitions, those who want to create a life in U.K. and work for this country are basically told "Pay up so you can then continue paying our taxes for the rest of your life". Of course, no one cares about another fact - some EU countries don't allow dual citizenship. I wonder how many of the British expats would be happy to "voluntarily" take in EU passport if in exchange they had to give up their British? It may be nothing for some people, but a big deal for others.


----------



## shadowmare

DoodlesRule said:


> Have a look at the Guardian headline, seems the EU showing their true colours by using Gibraltar


How? I've read the article. I can't see anything that was not discussed in the past. Everyone on Gibraltar were afraid of this for months. And let's not pretend that people who are happy about Brexit will give two hoots about how this will effect someone living in the rock  why would they? This has no direct effect on their lives.


----------



## noushka05

*Green Party*‏Verified [email protected]*TheGreenParty* 1h1 hour ago

The Government is using Brexit to pursue its own extreme agenda. They have no mandate for this


----------



## DoodlesRule

shadowmare said:


> How? I've read the article. I can't see anything that was not discussed in the past. Everyone on Gibraltar were afraid of this for months. And let's not pretend that people who are happy about Brexit will give two hoots about how this will effect someone living in the rock  why would they? This has no direct effect on their lives.


So now you know the thoughts, feelings & circumstances of over 17 million people. There certainly is some rubbish posted on this thread and that comment is pretty high on the list


----------



## noushka05

*Faisal Islam*‏Verified [email protected]*faisalislam* 7h7 hours ago

Tusk outlining EU27 draft negotiation guidelines:
"The UK is now on the other side of the negotiating table..
it is about damage control


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> Thank you DT but it appears that wishing the whole country to fail is fine by the remainers
> 
> Whilst stating that the post was, to say the least distasteful and the worst treason is wrong
> 
> Are the remainers the only ones with the right to insult and call people names
> 
> I don't give a damn what they think of me personally but to call for everybody to suffer because that did not get what they wanted is childish beyond belief





rona said:


> No, where did you get that from?


same place as all the other exagerated fairy tales they post I suspect


----------



## noushka05

*GeorgeMonbiot*‏@*GeorgeMonbiot* 6h6 hours ago

They could scarcely make this more explicit:
leaving the EU means submitting to the US.
So much for sovereignty

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-eu-michael-fallon-nato-james-mattis-meeting


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> same place as all the other exagerated fairy tales they post I suspect


Its true Sue, they are threatening to withdraw intelligence sharing with Europol if they don't get a good deal. How low can they stoop?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-europol-amber-rudd-says-likely-a7656971.html

http://eu-ocs.com/uk-threatens-withdraw-intelligence-sharing-europol-brexit-trade-deal-denied/


----------



## 1290423

shadowmare said:


> How? I've read the article. I can't see anything that was not discussed in the past. Everyone on Gibraltar were afraid of this for months. And let's not pretend that people who are happy about Brexit will give two hoots about how this will effect someone living in the rock  why would they? This has no direct effect on their lives.


I thing at the back of everyone's mind irrespective of how they voted they must fear those in Gibraltar, along with those in Spain and many other eu counties, they must all be in turmoil and will remain so for the next two years,


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Its true Sue, they are threatening to withdraw intelligence sharing with Europol if they don't get a good deal. How low can they stoop?
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-europol-amber-rudd-says-likely-a7656971.html
> 
> http://eu-ocs.com/uk-threatens-withdraw-intelligence-sharing-europol-brexit-trade-deal-denied/


Well maybe whilst they are sorting out security, and they have not threatened to withdraw what they said it needs to be at the top of the agenda,( I believe it was missinterputated as a threat,} perhaps they can persuade other countries to pay their fair share towards NATO, seeing as at the moment it looks like only the USA and UK are


----------



## Happy Paws2

Poor Gibraltar in the middle again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39453535


----------



## cheekyscrip

Talks about Gibraltar will be carried without Gibraltar. So much for the right to self-determination.
Just to remind you: Spain can block you in WTO too.

Thank you on behalf of Gibraltar for dropping us in it.
















Frontier impossible to pass again.

Our economy will be pulverized in a year if it goes like that.

Britain decided to take on EU nationals as pawns in the game. Here is the retaliation.

Not only EU nationals are worried now.
Thank you all who in safety of their own homes discuss Brexit, because they have no wolf at the door.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Spain is celebrating already all over Spanish media.
They practically got Gibraltar for free.

Can do whatever they want at the frontier. Can take it all in no time.

And Theresa May is no MT.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I really feel for you, you must feel totaly a lone.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> That was a question, not printed as a fact.


Which I answered then asked you a question?


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Well maybe whilst they are sorting out security, and they have not threatened to withdraw what they said it needs to be at the top of the agenda,( I believe it was missinterputated as a threat,} perhaps they can persuade other countries to pay their fair share towards NATO, seeing as at the moment it looks like only the USA and UK are


I don't think Europol has anything to do with NATO does it? Anyway it seems shes been forced to explain herself. Who'd have thought she'd have humiliated herself so soon. Blimey.

Heres how NATO works though - http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...heck-donald-trump-says-germany-owes-vast-sum/

NATO members agreed to spend 2 percent of their country's GDP on defense by 2024. But that's not in payments to NATO. Each country funds its own defense, while NATO serves as an umbrella organization meant to protect all members.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> I don't think Europol has anything to do with NATO does it? Anyway it seems shes been forced to explain herself. Who'd have thought she'd have humiliated herself so soon. Blimey.
> 
> Heres how NATO works though - http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...heck-donald-trump-says-germany-owes-vast-sum/
> 
> NATO members agreed to spend 2 percent of their country's GDP on defense by 2024. But that's not in payments to NATO. Each country funds its own defense, while NATO serves as an umbrella organization meant to protect all members.
> 
> View attachment 305001


Yes and only the usa and the uk spend the 2 per cent, yet the eu countries continue have, if need be, as much as the rest of us from it. Sorry on my phone, cant type right


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> I really feel for you, you must feel totaly a lone.


Wish people debating here paused a moment. Looked at it.
It actually matters right now.
Thank you @Happy Paws.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Wish people debating here paused a moment. Looked at it.
> It actually matters right now.
> Thank you @Happy Paws.


I'm so sorry its come to this Cheeky, god knows how scared & worried you must be right now. I just hope they will revoke Article 50 & save you xxx


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Wish people debating here paused a moment. Looked at it.
> It actually matters right now.


Of course it matters Scrippy.

To some of us.

To others, they've got what they wanted, and that's all that matters.


----------



## rona

http://chronicle.gi/2017/03/as-may-...stis-promises-no-punitive-measures-at-border/

http://en.mercopress.com/2017/03/30...ge-of-calm-to-spaniards-who-work-in-gibraltar

http://spanishnewstoday.com/gibraltar-chief-minister-reacts-to-triggering-of-article-50_87430-a.html

http://spanishnewstoday.com/spain-d...lution-possible_87222-a.html?region=2#leftcol

The last one is the most relevant


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> Of course it matters Scrippy.
> 
> To some of us.
> 
> To others, they've got what they wanted, and that's all that matters.


Interview with our Chief Minister Picardo is the most relevant, not what any Spanish politicians say @rona. It is on SkyNews right now.
Lets see if we get " best possible deal"...but I do not hold my breath.

In 1981 Britain had chance to stop Spain once for all when Spain wanted access to NATO and Britain could have blocked it.

They totally missed that opportunity.

Lets see if TM as good as some think her to be?

Her first hurdle to take. Gibraltar.


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Interview with our Chief Minister Picardo is the most relevant, not what any Spanish politicians say @rona. It is on SkyNews right now.
> Lets see if we get " best possible deal"...but I do not hold my breath.
> 
> In 1981 Britain had chance to stop Spain once for all when Spain wanted access to NATO and Britain could have blocked it.
> 
> They totally missed that opportunity.
> 
> Lets see if TM as good as some think her to be?
> 
> Her first hurdle to take. Gibraltar.


No empathy from this user then Scrip.:Watching

Perhaps if you get well and truly screwed Brit holiday makers might boycott Spain.

Of course, Britain could always go to war with them instead. :Nailbiting


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> No empathy from this user then Scrip.:Watching
> 
> Perhaps if you get well and truly screwed Brit holiday makers might boycott Spain.
> 
> Of course, Britain could always go to war with them instead. :Nailbiting


There is no better source of information on Gibraltar than opinion of Spanish press...
Absolutely trustworthy source that must be: Dastis. His solution: Takeover with British flag next to Spanish as a bit of formality and Spain in charge. 
How ***** patriotic is to wish so on 30 k British in Gibraltar.

Because they are less equal UK citizens than you are @rona?
Congratulations.
So much for flag waving. Unless it is Spanish flag ...
Time to replace oranges with Cox apples perhaps


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> There is no better source of information on Gibraltar than opinion of Spanish press...
> Absolutely trustworthy source that must be: Dastis.
> Time to replace oranges with Cox apples perhaps?


 According to a 'news source' Dastis has sent a message of reassurance to the Spaniards who work in Gibraltar. He claims to have their interests at heart.

More pawns perhaps?

You know, sacrifice the few for the many on this one occasion only?


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> There is no better source of information on Gibraltar than opinion of Spanish press...


I didn't just link to Spanish press and your own Chief minister has been quoted in the links


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I didn't just link to Spanish press and your own Chief minister has been quoted in the links


You quoted SpanishNews. Basically.

Not British or Gibraltar news.
I do not think Spanish news reflect our point of view.

With all respect you batting for the wrong side.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Never been keen the Spanish, like them even less now trying to hold you to ransom.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> You quoted SpanishNews. Basically.
> 
> Not British or Gibraltar news.
> I do not think Spanish news reflect our point of view.
> 
> With all respect you batting for the wrong side.


Erm.......wasn't one a Gibraltar news paper and another wasn't Spanish

I'm just trying to give perspective. if you want to link to Gibraltar press, I for one would be very interested

I can't remember voicing an opinion, you and your mates just assume as usual


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> Have a look at the Guardian headline, seems the EU showing their true colours by using Gibraltar


Here we go again. Blaming the EU while May can't do wrong.

If it wasn't for this stupid referendum none of this would be happening.


----------



## rona

http://chronicle.gi/2017/03/clear-message-from-may/

http://chronicle.gi/2017/03/uk-rema...braltar-after-eu-signals-spanish-brexit-veto/

http://gibraltarpanorama.gi/15209/2...ipulate-the-european-council-for-its-own-narr

Again it's protectionism from the EU, they know that Spain will veto any deal


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Erm.......wasn't one a Gibraltar news paper and another wasn't Spanish
> 
> I'm just trying to give perspective. if you want to link to Gibraltar press, I for one would be very interested
> 
> I can't remember voicing an opinion, you and your mates just assume as usual


Thank you. No idea what your perspective might be, but form my perspective it's my home.

In 2002 99% Gibraltarians voted to be British and voting Remain has not change that at all.

Get it. I live here.
I know how it affects us.

I do not speak for Westminster or Madrid but for little community of the Rock.

Expect support, not SpanishNews in my face.
Not from British countrymen.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Thank you. No idea what your perspective might be, but form my perspective it's my home.
> 
> In 2002 99% Gibraltarians voted to be British and voting Remain has not change that at all.
> 
> Get it. I live here.
> I know how it affects us.
> 
> I do not speak for Westminster or Madrid but for little community of the Rock.
> 
> Expect support, not SpanishNews in my face.
> Not from British countrymen.


I'm so sorry you are feeling this way, it must be hard to think that half the UK have adandoned you, and reading on here the leave lot, gloating all the time. it's a very painfully and upsetting time for you.


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> I'm so sorry you are feeling this way, it must be hard to think that half the UK have adandoned you, and reading on here the leave lot, gloating all the time. it's a very painfully and upsetting time for you.


Who the hells gloating? Of course we have concern and empathy for those in dreadful situations. Its people like you who are who are creating tension and and whipping up hard feeling! Now don"t you ever even start to imagine you know what im thinking, and dont you EVER speak for me! Not today not tomorrow not ever!

Sorry about that little outburst cheeky x and hoping a solution can be reached, it may look bleak but hang on in there x


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> Who the hells gloating? Of course we have concern and empathy for those in dreadful situations. Its people like you who are who are creating tension and and whipping up hard feeling! Now don"t you ever even start to imagine you know what im thinking, *and dont you EVER speak for me! Not today not tomorrow not ever! *
> 
> Sorry about that little outburst cheeky x and hoping a solution can be reached, it may look bleak but hang on in there x


That's easy I've just put you on ignore which is something I should have done months ago. So don't bother to answer this


----------



## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> Who the hells gloating? Of course we have concern and empathy for those in dreadful situations. Its people like you who are who are creating tension and and whipping up hard feeling! Now don"t you ever even start to imagine you know what im thinking, *and dont you EVER speak for me! Not today not tomorrow not ever! *
> 
> Sorry about that little outburst cheeky x and hoping a solution can be reached, it may look bleak but hang on in there x


Easy, I've just put you on ignore


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> That's easy I've just put you on ignore which is something I should have done months ago. So don't bother to answer this


Good move sunshine!


----------



## Happy Paws2

.......


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> .......


Think your ignore buttons malfunctioned!


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> http://chronicle.gi/2017/03/clear-message-from-may/
> 
> http://chronicle.gi/2017/03/uk-rema...braltar-after-eu-signals-spanish-brexit-veto/
> 
> http://gibraltarpanorama.gi/15209/2...ipulate-the-european-council-for-its-own-narr
> 
> Again it's protectionism from the EU, they know that Spain will veto any deal


Sadly. It is just politicians.
No one cares about the people on both sides of the border.
Workers who cross every day, those who make living on crossborder trade are ordinary people, affected the most.
British, Spanish and all others. None wants that. None deserves that.
Shame. Total shame. Madrid might celebrate but not La Linea next door.
For most Spanish I know it is not that important to have Gibraltar.
Many want to respect our rights to self-determination if they support human rights...then no exception.

This is just taking gloves off and the true face of politics.
You ordinary people count only when they want your vote.


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> You ordinary people count only when they want your vote.


It's exactly what I've been saying all along Scrippy.

But, ya knows.....................................................................


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Here we go again. Blaming the EU while May can't do wrong.
> 
> If it wasn't for this stupid referendum none of this would be happening.


And it must be remembered Spain are EU members. The EU must put the interests of its members first.

The situation was ideal when the UK was a member too. Spain and Gibraltar were separate identities with the EU in common with free market trade and free movement.

Much the same with NI and the ROI.

But Britain has left the EU.

Pure Laurel and Hardy. Another fine mess.

.....And for what?


----------



## KittenKong

Two recent Sabre posts.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.politico.eu/pro/uk-strug...il&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-25a2d73765-189613489


----------



## 1290423




----------



## KittenKong

Perhaps we can expect to see more, "Go home or face arrest" vans and billboard posters in May's Brexit Britain?????

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...a-keir-starmer-home-offica-visa-a7661281.html


----------



## noushka05

Oh look in 2016 Philp Hammond angered brexit campaigners by telling the truth about Gibraltar.


----------



## noushka05

Gibraltar - now the Falklands. Day 3 - isn't brexit going great?


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> Gibraltar - now the Falklands. Day 3 - isn't brexit going great?
> 
> View attachment 305048


Is that another April Ist joke or is it true.


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> Is that another April Ist joke or is it true.


More likely true I guess. It was expected.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> More likely true I guess. It was expected.


Oh dear, we are going to have a fun time.


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> Oh dear, we are going to have a fun time.


It was always going to be a rough ride. We knew that. The EU is behaving as the aggressive bully it always has been; insiting on a messy divorce settlement, delaying trade negotiations, now sucking up to facist warmongers. Bowing down to them, by staying, was always the wrong response. It is about time we grew some. I hope, more than ever, that Brexit is the start of a chain reaction that sees the whole sh1t encrusted pile of garbage, that is the EU, collapse in on itself.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> It was always going to be a rough ride. We knew that. *The EU is behaving as the aggressive bully it always has been; *insiting on a messy divorce settlement, delaying trade negotiations, now sucking up to facist warmongers. Bowing down to them, by staying, was always the wrong response. It is about time we grew some. I hope, more than ever, that Brexit is the start of a chain reaction that sees the whole sh1t encrusted pile of garbage, that is the EU, collapse in on itself.


How have they been a aggressive bully???????

We decided to leave so why should they be nice to us!


----------



## Goblin

Why should people care? Well it could affect things like cancer treatments for a start.


----------



## Goblin

Why does May's plans remind me so much of General Melchett:


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> It was always going to be a rough ride. We knew that. The EU is behaving as the aggressive bully it always has been; insiting on a messy divorce settlement, delaying trade negotiations, now sucking up to facist warmongers. Bowing down to them, by staying, was always the wrong response. It is about time we grew some. I hope, more than ever, that Brexit is the start of a chain reaction that sees the whole sh1t encrusted pile of garbage, that is the EU, collapse in on itself.


Exchange the word EU with UK and you'll be talking sense!


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> It was always going to be a rough ride. We knew that. The EU is behaving as the aggressive bully it always has been; insiting on a messy divorce settlement, delaying trade negotiations, now sucking up to facist warmongers. Bowing down to them, by staying, was always the wrong response. It is about time we grew some. I hope, more than ever, that Brexit is the start of a chain reaction that sees the whole sh1t encrusted pile of garbage, that is the EU, collapse in on itself.


Strange, I thought the UK decided to leave based on a pack of lies making the EU the "enemy". Just what does the EU owe the UK when it's primary concern should be getting the best deal for it's own members like any other country or group when it comes to trade deals? You've obviously totally ignored what experts have been saying all the way through about the realities of international trade relations and how they work. The US or any other potential trading partners will not be any different.

Of course those pushing leave including May and the media have been setting the EU up as a scapegoat from the start rather than admitting this would be the reality of the real world.


----------



## noushka05

I wouldn't be surprised if the government were looking into this lol EU agricultural workers no longer feel welcome here & someone has to do it..

And this isn't an April Fool either @Happy Paws. Paterson actually suggested this










Builders, agricultural workers, nurses. No need to reduce immigration - just treat foreigners like **** ,make them feel unwelcome & they wont want to come anyway.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Strange, I thought the UK decided to leave based on a pack of lies making the EU the "enemy". Just what does the EU owe the UK when it's primary concern should be getting the best deal for it's own members like any other country or group when it comes to trade deals? You've obviously totally ignored what experts have been saying all the way through about the realities of international trade relations and how they work. The US or any other potential trading partners will not be any different.
> 
> Of course those pushing leave including May and the media have been setting the EU up as a scapegoat from the start rather than admitting this would be the reality of the real world.


Indeed. It's amazing what the EU have been blamed for.

Holding the referendum during a major European football tournament must've led some to believe voting leave would improve England's chances of winning. It didn't.

Some will probably blame the EU for the weather, of them giving preferential treatment towards members in the Mediterranean for their hot sunny climate.

Of course leaving the EU has contributed to Team GB's performance in the recent Olympics and Sir Murray's Wimbledon success.

Not April Fool.

I wouldn't put it past some to believe all this....


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the government were looking into this lol EU agricultural workers no longer feel welcome here & someone has to do it..
> 
> And this isn't an April Fool either @Happy Paws. Paterson actually suggested this
> 
> View attachment 305055
> 
> 
> Builders, agricultural workers, nurses. No need to reduce immigration - just treat foreigners like **** ,make them feel unwelcome & they wont want to come anyway.
> 
> View attachment 305059
> 
> 
> View attachment 305058
> 
> 
> View attachment 305057


Well I remember Employment Training, work for your benefits with the slogan, "Train the workers without jobs to do the jobs without wages".

Now it looks like work for your state retirement pension too!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Well I remember Employment Training, work for your benefits with the slogan, "Train the workers without jobs to do the jobs without wages".
> 
> Now it looks like work for your state retirement pension too!


Nostalgia is a common reason I've heard for voting out. So I'm sure those hard liner OAP brexiteers will be more than happy to do their duty & dig for victory again. This is what they voted for after all.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Nostalgia is a common reason I've heard for voting out. So I'm sure those hard liner OAP brexiteers will be more than happy to do their duty & dig for victory again. This is what they voted for after all.


Theres a fair few already doing it noush, saw a programme about it the other week, think it was fruit picking, they were all saying how fantastic it was, wonder if we can take milly?


----------



## 1290423

Just ask terry what it was, he cant recall seeing it, says it could have been on while he was at work, im wrecking my brains now, could have been on the relocation to the country.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the government were looking into this lol EU agricultural workers no longer feel welcome here & someone has to do it..
> 
> And this isn't an April Fool either @Happy Paws. Paterson actually suggested this
> 
> View attachment 305055
> 
> 
> Builders, agricultural workers, nurses. No need to reduce immigration - just treat foreigners like **** ,make them feel unwelcome & they wont want to come anyway.
> 
> View attachment 305059
> 
> 
> View attachment 305058
> 
> 
> View attachment 305057


And I propose to solve the problem of world hunger and a mountain of other social issues, these cut throat politicians have caused, simply by feeding, the sick, the lame, the poor, the homeless, the unemployed, immigrants, the physically incapable, the mentally ill, single mothers, Chavs and their staffs and a few Audi and BMW drivers to the starving nations around the planet.


----------



## 1290423

http://www.herefordtimes.com/news/9291104.Ledbury_farm_offers_sweet_life_to_veteran_workers/

2011


----------



## Zaros

DT said:


> Theres a fair few already doing it noush, saw a programme about it the other week, think it was fruit picking, * they were all saying how fantastic it was*, wonder if we can take milly?


And I recall seeing a film documentary about Jews staying at a Hitler Holiday camp who all appeared to be saying the same thing. :Nailbiting


----------



## suewhite

noushka05 said:


> Nostalgia is a common reason I've heard for voting out. So I'm sure those hard liner OAP brexiteers will be more than happy to do their duty & dig for victory again. This is what they voted for after all.


I think the OAPs have done there duty and digging in there lifetime,I am sure there were other reasons for them voting Brexit than picking up a spade and digging for victory.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Now it looks like work for your state retirement pension too!


Well they can B'*@%r off, we have done our bit, paid our taxes and still are, so NO.



noushka05 said:


> Nostalgia is a common reason I've heard for voting out. So I'm sure those hard liner OAP brexiteers will be more than happy to do their duty & dig for victory again. This is what they voted for after all.


Well I didn't vote for any type of brexit, so they can get [email protected]#*d


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> http://www.herefordtimes.com/news/9291104.Ledbury_farm_offers_sweet_life_to_veteran_workers/
> 
> 2011


Oh look a couple who are:

Healthy

Financially secure

Enjoy going to europe.



> The couple, who took early retirement, heard about seasonal work in Ledbury while motorhoming in Portugal.


Of course this is from 2011 and nothing from the EU prevents those who wish to do so from doing so. There's a major difference between having a choice and being forced to do it or rely on it.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> Well they can B'*@%r off, we have done our bit, paid our taxes and still are, so NO.
> 
> Well I didn't vote for any type of brexit, so they can get [email protected]#*d


My Grandmother, had she still been alive would have most certainly have voted Remain too, at 101!

I remember us sitting in front of the TV rejoicing in the majority voting YES in the 1975 referendum (ITN coverage fronted by Robert Kee).

At the time the UK joined she told me how special membership of the Common Market was, former enemies working together for a better war free future.

She was right.

Sad for me to say this, I adored my grandmother but relieved in a way she wasn't around to see the outcome of the 2016 referendum.


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Theres a fair few already doing it noush, saw a programme about it the other week, think it was fruit picking, they were all saying how fantastic it was, wonder if we can take milly?


There'll be nowt left for the farmer to sell if you take Milly:Hilarious



Zaros said:


> And I propose to solve the problem of world hunger and a mountain of other social issues, these cut throat politicians have caused, simply by feeding, the sick, the lame, the poor, the homeless, the unemployed, immigrants, the physically incapable, the mentally ill, single mothers, Chavs and their staffs and a few Audi and BMW drivers to the starving nations around the planet.


hahaa

One big flaw in that proposal I'm afraid. It would mean helping the needy elsewhere, they wouldn't buy it. If you'd suggested feeding their hounds or pigs you might just get somewhereompus lol



suewhite said:


> I think the OAPs have done there duty and digging in there lifetime,I am sure there were other reasons for them voting Brexit than picking up a spade and digging for victory.


You'd be surprised. Even on this thread brexiteers are yearning for the good old days when they had nothing & had to dig for victory.

If they do have other reasons for leaving, I'm yet to hear a coherent one.



Happy Paws said:


> Well they can B'*@%r off, we have done our bit, paid our taxes and still are, so NO.
> 
> Well I didn't vote for any type of brexit, so they can get [email protected]#*d


:Hilarious
Nope, non of this mess is down to the remoaners


----------



## noushka05

Gibraltar will remain British.
Scotland will remain part of the UK.
There'll be £350m a week for the NHS.
Brexit is a good idea.

#*aprilfools*

(c/o David Schneider)


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> One big flaw in that proposal I'm afraid. It would mean helping the needy elsewhere, they wouldn't buy it. If you'd suggested feeding their hounds or pigs you might just get somewhereompus


 And it may be superfluous of me to point out that my gross incompetence comes for free.

Unlike your government's which you have to pay for..:Smug


----------



## noushka05

The NI peace process isn't threatened.
Workers' rights are safe.
Theresa May is a safe pair of hands.
Brexit is a good idea.

#*aprilfoolsday*


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Oh look a couple who are:
> 
> Healthy
> 
> Financially secure
> 
> Enjoy going to europe.
> 
> Of course this is from 2011 and nothing from the EU prevents those who wish to do so from doing so. There's a major difference between having a choice and being forced to do it or rely on it.


Well blair and his bandits already robbed the women oaps that were born in the fifties of their pensions anyway! And dont give me equal opportunities bullsh#te as those woman never experienced that luxury, nor did they enjoy equal pay, and to top it many started work at 15 anyway! We are always being warned pension age will increase whether we are in or out of the eu!
And as it happens I dont think that oaps should be made to work once retired, unless they want too, and don,t believe they will, just more scaremongering by the press.


----------



## noushka05

Leaving the customs union wasn't on the ballot paper either.

Oh dear...


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Well blair and his bandits already robbed the women oaps that were born in the fifties of their pensions anyway!.


Come on you can blame every single recent government for not paying attention to pensions and requirements. Instead they are treated as another scapegoat for difficulties (example NHS) but that is another totally separate topic.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Goblin said:


> Come on you can blame every single recent government for not paying attention to pensions and requirements. Instead they are treated as another scapegoat for difficulties (example NHS) but that is another totally separate topic.


Low state pensions and the NHS are the sole responsibility of our government, nothing to do with the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lets hope they leave Gibralter alone then.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu
> View attachment 305138


Because they were bribed by the veto on Gibraltar.
Scotland in EU is useful market for Spain so not blocking it means more holidays sold and more wine etc...exported.

This is why EU gave th veto on us and they accepted.

Scotland dies not really have that much bearing on Catalonia, getting Gibraltar will be the show of strength and unity.

So much for"Project Fear".

Losing Gibraltar and Falklands will diminish Britain on world stage.
As weak and incapable of looking after their own.


----------



## noushka05

140,000 EU nationals work in the NHS, and there has been an 83% rise in them leaving since the referendum.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...ropean-nhs-workers-after-brexit-a3505006.html


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> 140,000 EU nationals work in the NHS, and there has been an 83% rise in them leaving since the referendum.
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...ropean-nhs-workers-after-brexit-a3505006.html


I saw that on TV last night, very worrying, I hope the leaves will be happy, if they need to go into hospital and there aren't any nurses there to look after them.


----------



## KittenKong

Someone here said triggering the Brexit process was "Painless"....




















































.....And this is before Gibraltar May had forgotten to mention in her Article 50 letter!

Personally I wouldn't trust May and her government to boil a kettle, let alone negotiate away from a union that guaranteed peace and co operation for over 40 years.

Still, there is some good news for Brexiteers. Apparently, the blue British (and seriously restricted in due course) passports are making a comeback according to the Brexcess.

Hope you consider that worth all this.....


----------



## noushka05

God do I wish I lived in Scotland. Compare May & her lying government of carpetbaggers to Nicola Sturgeon & the SNP..


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant article by Mhairi Black here:
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15...ay_s_behaviour_is_the_best_argument_for_indy/


----------



## noushka05




----------



## cheekyscrip

Right fromBBCNews: TM was warned about consequences of not putting Gibraltar in Article 50.

Now this horrid person on BBC said " Lets think unthinkable and consider giving Gibraltar away".
Just like that.
Fate of 30 K British people. Because they voted Remain?
Half of UK nearly voted Remain.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Right fromBBCNews: TM was warned about consequences of not putting Gibraltar in Article 50.
> 
> Now this horrid person on BBC said " Lets think unthinkable and consider giving Gibraltar away".
> Just like that.
> Fate of 30 K British people. Because they voted Remain?
> Half of UK nearly voted Remain.


Its clear from this tread some people want brexit whatever the cost. There is no logic. Its utter madness.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> 140,000 EU nationals work in the NHS, and there has been an 83% rise in them leaving since the referendum.
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...ropean-nhs-workers-after-brexit-a3505006.html


Surely some would think that's a good thing. Last year's Tory party conference stressed the need for less dependence on EU and other overseas staff in favour of "British", even going as far as to replace overseas staff with British ones. Something I'd expect from the National Front or the BNP.

Of course 140,000 leaving on their own accord, before they're "replaced" by " British Blood"
will only be seen as a blip.

The old Tory saying, "Things will have to get worse before they get better", comes to mind here.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Its clear from this tread some people want brexit whatever the cost. There is no logic. Its utter madness.


Yes. How sad.
They are happy to trade other people's lives , homes, futures.
Gibraltar is the very place that values the heritage the most.

Now some people even on pf (CB) call us traitors and happy to trade us for a deal with Spain, package holidays and tapas.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


>


Wisdom For The Day; Ordinary people should never be afraid to venture out and try something new. They should remember that a lone amateur set out to build the Ark, and a large group of professional engineers built the Titanic.

Somewhere out there, homeless, hungry and huddled in a doorway from the cold driving rain, is the one who can save us all. :Watching

S.O.S!


----------



## KittenKong

Are the government really going to spend £500 million to remove the words, "European Union" and change the background colour of passports?

Surely, if they must, a simple computer program could be used to do this!

Needless to say the cost will be passed on to future passport holders who could well find the replacement is not only extremely restrictive compared to the burgundy one it replaced, but prohibitively expensive too.

Still no promised money for the NHS though....


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Still, there is some good news for Brexiteers. Apparently, the blue British (and seriously restricted in due course) passports are making a comeback according to the Brexcess..


Hope they don't change to the blue. I will confuse it with my other passport!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Blue passports will only be issued to people who are applying for their first passport or as the old red ones run out.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Someone here said triggering the Brexit process was "Painless"....
> 
> View attachment 305139
> View attachment 305140
> View attachment 305141
> View attachment 305142
> View attachment 305143
> View attachment 305144
> View attachment 305145
> 
> 
> .....And this is before Gibraltar May had forgotten to mention in her Article 50 letter!
> 
> Personally I wouldn't trust May and her government to boil a kettle, let alone negotiate away from a union that guaranteed peace and co operation for over 40 years.
> 
> Still, there is some good news for Brexiteers. Apparently, the blue British (and seriously restricted in due course) passports are making a comeback according to the Brexcess.
> 
> Hope you consider that worth all this.....


Acorns.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> God do I wish I lived in Scotland. Compare May & her lying government of carpetbaggers to Nicola Sturgeon & the SNP..
> 
> View attachment 305146


Yes it is easy to spend other people's hard earned money.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Someone here said triggering the Brexit process was "Painless"....
> 
> View attachment 305139
> View attachment 305140
> View attachment 305141
> View attachment 305142
> View attachment 305143
> View attachment 305144
> View attachment 305145
> 
> 
> .....And this is before Gibraltar May had forgotten to mention in her Article 50 letter!
> 
> Personally I wouldn't trust May and her government to boil a kettle, let alone negotiate away from a union that guaranteed peace and co operation for over 40 years.
> 
> Still, there is some good news for Brexiteers. Apparently, the blue British (and seriously restricted in due course) passports are making a comeback according to the Brexcess.
> 
> Hope you consider that worth all this.....


5 proofs that UK is not in constitutional crisis:

1) Scots are not getting Indyref2 until after Brexit happens. This won't be considered by the Government and UK Parliament until after Spring 2019.
2) Northern Ireland have no devolved administration (assembly) and could be under direct rule in two weeks time (this is the extension they have been given) and are not in a position to call a border poll. TM has also said no border poll until after Brexit anyway.
3) Gibraltar is not for sale, I can see UK naval ships there again which is what the purpose of Gibraltar was for back in history.
4) The draft paper the EU has presented is only a draft. Many of the things mentioned in it could be dropped in the final bill or challenged in the European Courts of Justice.
5) The UK has a right to walk away from the negotiations without a deal.

This draft bill hasn't even been agreed upon yet by the 27 and Brussels areas. The UK still has a veto right as well as all our EU rights which remain in force until the UK officially leaves the EU.

Yes I am back


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> 5 proofs that UK is not in constitutional crisis:
> 
> 1) Scots are not getting Indyref2 until after Brexit happens. This won't be considered by the Government and UK Parliament until after Spring 2019.


Only the scottish parliament can have a referendum before that date which would be just as valid as the one May used to take the UK out of the EU.



> 2) Northern Ireland have no devolved administration (assembly) and could be under direct rule in two weeks time (this is the extension they have been given) and are not in a position to call a border poll. TM has also said no border poll until after Brexit anyway.


Yet unable to say what any border would be other the a meaningless "light" which may or may not be true.



> 3) Gibraltar is not for sale, I can see UK naval ships there again which is what the purpose of Gibraltar was for back in history.


Who pays for these ships and where do they come from?



> 4) The draft paper the EU has presented is only a draft. Many of the things mentioned in it could be dropped in the final bill or challenged in the European Courts of Justice.


Thought we were abandoning the ECJ.



> 5) The UK has a right to walk away from the negotiations without a deal.


Without any plans to do so or having the full impact actually talked about as admitted to by David Davis.



> This draft bill hasn't even been agreed upon yet by the 27 and Brussels areas. The UK still has a veto right as well as all our EU rights which remain in force until the UK officially leaves the EU.


No it doesn't. Article 50 removes the veto when it comes to anything affecting the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Only the scottish parliament can have a referendum before that date which would be just as valid as the one May used to take the UK out of the EU.
> 
> Yet unable to say what any border would be other the a meaningless "light" which may or may not be true.
> 
> Who pays for these ships and where do they come from?
> 
> Thought we were abandoning the ECJ.
> 
> Without any plans to do so or having the full impact actually talked about as admitted to by David Davis.
> 
> No it doesn't. Article 50 removes the veto when it comes to anything affecting the UK.


Scotland do not have devolved powers to hold an independence Referendum as it is a reserved power held by the UK government and UK Parliament who have to grant permission and the Queen has to approve by royal assent. So that screws that doesn't it for Scotland because if they held one without consent they would be in breach of there devolved powers and breaking UK law.

The UK is still in the EU until it officially leaves the EU meaning the UK can still challenge things in the ECJ.

You show me were it says in the article 50 bill that any veto rights are removed when article 50 is triggered? It doesn't.

Gibraltar was a military base until recent history and can be again. The Spainish has no legal claim to the rock since 1713 it is British sovereign terroritory and will remain this. The UK still has friggits and war ships not aircraft carriers so can still deploy it's war ships to Gibraltar if need be and turn Gibraltar into a naval and military base again if it wants to. The UK could even base it's nuclear fleet there if it wants to.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Scotland do not have devolved powers to hold an independence Referendum as it is a reserved power held by the UK government and UK Parliament who have to grant permission and the Queen has to approve by royal assent. So that screws that doesn't it for Scotland because if they held one without consent they would be in breach of there devolved powers and breaking UK law.


The EU referendum was non-binding as well. Yet May decided that was enough. What's good for the goose.. Hey if a politician says it's valid according to you (Cameron) that means it is (Sturgeon).



> The UK is still in the EU until it officially leaves the EU meaning the UK can still challenge things in the ECJ.


Just what are they going to challenge?



> You show me were it says in the article 50 bill that any veto rights are removed when article 50 is triggered? It doesn't.


You mean you haven't even checked before you posted...



> 1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
> 2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the cons ent of the European Parliament.
> 3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
> 4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3,* the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it*.
> 
> A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
> 
> 5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> The EU referendum was non-binding as well. Yet May decided that was enough. What's good for the goose.. Hey if a politician says it's valid according to you (Cameron) that means it is (Sturgeon).
> 
> Just what are they going to challenge?
> 
> You mean you haven't even checked before you posted...


Thank you for quoting article 50. It still does not say the right to veto is removed when article 50 is triggered does it?

The UK can still refuse the deal the EU decide to make. The UK does not have to accept it. This means the EU or Spain then do not have any claim on Gibraltar and the draft bill presented by the EU is null and void. It is only a draft bill so this means it can and will be amenmended and no doubt many court cases in the ECJ to overturn things the UK don't agree to if the UK decides to.

The negotiations could be over in a matter of minutes by the UK walking away from them.

Yet again you keep blubbering over the Referendum. Get over it man.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Thank you for quoting article 50. It still does not say the right to veto is removed when article 50 is triggered does it?


Is does when it comes to things affecting the UK. Not participating means no veto.



> The UK can still refuse the deal the EU decide to make. The UK does not have to accept it. This means the EU or Spain then do not have any claim on Gibraltar and the draft bill presented by the EU is null and void. It is only a draft bill so this means it can and will be amenmended and no doubt many court cases in the ECJ to overturn things the UK don't agree to if the UK decides to.


They've never had claim over Gibraltar although they can be given Gibraltar by the UK government. This would not be against international or EU law.

UK can walk away at any time causing yet more damage to the economy and trade as well as meaning hard borders for NI/Ireland, Spain/Gibraltar as well as other potential problems such as expats etc etc...



> Yet again you keep blubbering over the Referendum. Get over it man.


You use the constitution as reasoning why Scotland cannot have a referendum but ignore the constitution when it concerns the EU referendum. You cannot have it both ways.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Is does when it comes to things affecting the UK. Not participating means no veto.
> 
> They've never had claim over Gibraltar although they can be given Gibraltar by the UK government. This would not be against international or EU law.
> 
> UK can walk away at any time causing yet more damage to the economy and trade as well as meaning hard borders for NI/Ireland, Spain/Gibraltar as well as other potential problems such as expats etc etc...
> 
> You use the constitution as reasoning why Scotland cannot have a referendum but ignore the constitution when it concerns the EU referendum. You cannot have it both ways.


More damage would be done to the EU's economy in the long term and they know that if the UK walks away from the negotiations..

Still article 50 does not say that any veto rights are removed in the article 50 bill all we have is your assumption.

The UK government said just yesterday Gibraltar is not for sale. Only the UK government can sell it. Spain has no claim over it since 1713. Full stop.

Let's see with Scotland as it will just go around and around on here and no one is right except the UK Government and UK Parliament who have the say so at the end of the day if they can or cannot have a referendum and so far they have said no not until after Brexit. It hasn't been refused it has been put back until after Brexit the same with Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland need to get there act together as they don't even have a devolved Assembly and could be under direct rule in a weeks time Tuesday. The same could happen to Scotland you know if the UK Parliament decide to invoke emergency powers but I am not going down that road as you are exhausting work.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Goblin and gang I am still happy the way I voted and you guys going on about things for 9 months+ still has not changed my mind.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> @Goblin and gang I am still happy the way I voted and you guys going on about things for 9 months+ still has not changed my mind.


Oh I know.. you'll simply blame others for anything which goes wrong..


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Oh I know.. you'll simply blame others for anything which goes wrong..


Nope. Wrong.
Again making unfounded assumptions and telling me how I think when you are wrong assuming this.


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> Oh I know.. you'll simply blame others for anything which goes wrong..


And there's no probabilities about that one. Its nailed on.


----------



## Guest

Our present government wants to change our health system, and open it to Private companies even more so that we could have even more choice. The plans have been there for a couple of years at least and still most professionals are finding huge gaps in those plans, as it is quite complicated to change a system as complex as that. We read about the pros and CONS all the time, almost daily, until we feel we could not care less. Still, it is obvious that there is no way the current government can pull it off this way, the risks are just too big,

How come British had to decide on EU without hardly any facts, analysis and time to understand what will be the consequences? Surely there should have been much more debate, facts, analysis and time to understand what you have been actually voting for and against? My point being is that there should be no need to guess what will happen, as you should have been made aware of the consequences. A nations future being a gamble like this is really sad. ""A kingdom for a horse and a country to stay a prime minister" - is history really repeating itself all over again,


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> And there's no probabilities about that one. Its nailed on.
> 
> View attachment 305197


So newspapers are telling me how I think now. How do you know I will blame you? Do you have a time machine you haven't told us about? Seriously stop telling me how I will feel, you don't know, the newspapers don't know. :Stop


----------



## Odin_cat

stockwellcat said:


> More damage would be done to the EU's economy in the long term and they know that if the UK walks away from the negotiations..
> 
> Still article 50 does not say that any veto rights are removed in the article 50 bill all we have is your assumption.
> 
> The UK government said just yesterday Gibraltar is not for sale. Only the UK government can sell it. Spain has no claim over it since 1713. Full stop.
> 
> Let's see with Scotland as it will just go around and around on here and no one is right except the UK Government and UK Parliament who have the say so at the end of the day if they can or cannot have a referendum and so far they have said no not until after Brexit. It hasn't been refused it has been put back until after Brexit the same with Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland need to get there act together as they don't even have a devolved Assembly and could be under direct rule in a weeks time Tuesday. The same could happen to Scotland you know if the UK Parliament decide to invoke emergency powers but I am not going down that road as you are exhausting work.


I thought Brexit was about British sovereignty...how does taking powers away from NI and Scotland realise this? 
Or is it really about English sovereignty?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Odin_cat said:


> I thought Brexit was about British sovereignty...how does taking powers away from NI and Scotland realise this?
> Or is it really about English sovereignty?


Scotland and NI are part of the UK and only have devolved powers they do not have Independent control over there assemblies or Governments the UK Government and UK Parliament do. It's UK sovereignity by the way not British Sovereignity. Millions of Scots and NI voted leave as well check it out online so they contributed to the leave vote winning.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> Our present government wants to change our health system, and open it to Private companies even more so that we could have even more choice. The plans have been there for a couple of years at least and still most professionals are finding huge gaps in those plans, as it is quite complicated to change a system as complex as that. We read about the pros and CONS all the time, almost daily, until we feel we could not care less. Still, it is obvious that there is no way the current government can pull it off this way, the risks are just too big,
> 
> How come British had to decide on EU without hardly any facts, analysis and time to understand what will be the consequences? Surely there should have been much more debate, facts, analysis and time to understand what you have been actually voting for and against? My point being is that there should be no need to guess what will happen, as you should have been made aware of the consequences. A nations future being a gamble like this is really sad. ""A kingdom for a horse and a country to stay a prime minister" - is history really repeating itself all over again,


You are bang on. The referendum was a life changing decision yet we were not only illinformed but blatantly lied to by the pro leave campaign. But do you know what? Going by this forum & social media, I've come to the realisation that masses of people don't care, they don't want to be informed. They made their minds up & that was that & even as the wheels start to drop off they have no regrets.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> So newspapers are telling me how I think now. How do you know I will blame you? Do you have a time machine you haven't told us about? Seriously stop telling me how I will feel, you don't know, the newspapers don't know.


Believe me I'd love to be proved wrong. As it becomes more & more obvious brexit is a disaster I'll remind you of this post


----------



## Odin_cat

stockwellcat said:


> Scotland and NI are part of the UK and only have devolved powers they do not have Independent control over there assemblies or Governments the UK Government and UK Parliament do. It's UK sovereignity by the way not British Sovereignity. Millions of Scots and NI voted leave as well check it out online so they contributed to the leave vote winning.


I don't need to 'check it out online' thanks . Taking away devolved powers is taking away sovereignty. Many Scottish and Northern Irish people voted to leave...but more voted to remain. The Westminster government would be unwise to start causing rifts within its own borders.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Odin_cat said:


> I don't need to 'check it out online' thanks . Taking away devolved powers is taking away sovereignty. Many Scottish and Northern Irish people voted to leave...but more voted to remain. The Westminster government would be unwise to start causing rifts within its own borders.


But who said Scotland can't have there Referendum to become isolated? May said not until after Brexit, this isn't refusal.

Northern Ireland don't have a devolved assembly and only have until a week Tuesday to sort this out. Under devolved power laws the Government can take back devolved powers to direct rule from Westminster via emergency legislation. That is the law. Northern Ireland had two elections in less than a year and have been unable to form a power sharing assembly the second time around and where granted an extra two weeks. The next step is direct rule if no power sharing Government is formed in this time frame.

Remember neither Scotland or NI have Independent powers as the UK government reserves this in Westminster as both Scotland and NI belong to the UK.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> You are bang on. The referendum was a life changing decision yet we were not only illinformed but blatantly lied to by the pro leave campaign. But do you know what? Going by this forum & social media, I've come to the realisation that masses of people don't care, they don't want to be informed. They made their minds up & that was that & even as the wheels start to drop off they have no regrets.


It is a sad sad world, when people like Brits stop caring about real politics. It´s like handing in a democracy for any conartist, who comes along and promises the people the moon and the sun. Dazzled by that people say, yes, I always liked them, but others were just so mean and didn´t want to give them to us. Even npw people say lets wait and see instead of lets make sure we won´t loose too much and keep a close eye on what will be decided.

Now is the time Britain really needs people like you, as most just don´t care or understand what is at stake here.


----------



## suewhite

noushka05 said:


> You are bang on. The referendum was a life changing decision yet we were not only illinformed but blatantly lied to by the pro leave campaign. But do you know what? Going by this forum & social media, I've come to the realisation that masses of people don't care, they don't want to be informed. They made their minds up & that was that & even as the wheels start to drop off they have no regrets.


While I respect your views noushka, it wasn't one-sided remain also did there share of fear and miss leading information, of course people care just because they voted Brexit doesn't mean they don't care.


----------



## cheekyscrip

In "Sunday Times" today: May did not include Gibraltar in Article 50 at request of Spain!!!
Though our Chief Minister asked many times, so did Foreign Office. Davies and May refused and trusted Spain!!!
Who quickly run to Tusk and got Gibraltar included in the draft.

So those are our chief negotiators.
God help us.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> But who said Scotland can't have there Referendum to become isolated? May said not until after Brexit, this isn't refusal.


Yet scotland have said it needs to be once the terms of leaving are known but before the UK potentially leaves. You know so people can make an informed choice rather than having a decision forced upon them.

Totally hypocritcal to push the EU referendum yet denying a country, even if part of the UK the chance to make a democratic decision.

Do I want Scotland to leave, no. Do I think they will, no. I do think they deserve the chance to make a choice.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Lord Howard has suggested the UK government could go to war with Spain to protect Gibraltar. The UK government has said it will work with Gibraltar to keep Gibraltar British and the UK will not give Gibraltar up.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yet scotland have said it needs to be once the terms of leaving are known but before the UK potentially leaves. *You know so people can make an informed choice rather than having a decision forced upon them.*
> 
> Totally hypocritcal to push the EU referendum yet denying a country, even if part of the UK the chance to make a democratic decision.
> 
> Do I want Scotland to leave, no. Do I think they will, no. I do think they deserve the chance to make a choice.


Like Cameron and Osborne influencing people to vote remain with lie after lie. But the UK public saw through this and voted leave and a small amount of people keep pushing the remain arguements even though the UK with Gibraltar is leaving the EU.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Like Cameron and Osborne influencing people to vote remain with lie after lie. But the UK public saw through this and voted leave.


You keep telling me that the campaigns didn't influence you, remarkably they didn't influence anybody. Remind me again what truths were involved about why you voted leave?


----------



## suewhite

stockwellcat said:


> Like Cameron and Osborne influencing people to vote remain with lie after lie. But the UK public saw through this and voted leave and a small amount of people keep pushing the remain arguements even though the UK with Gibraltar is leaving the EU.


Not forgetting rolling out Obama to issue threats.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You keep telling me that the campaigns didn't influence you, remarkably they didn't influence anybody. Remind me again what truths were involved about why you voted leave?


Didn't influence me one iota. I voted the way I always said I would. Just because I and many others quoted things on here during the Referendum campaign doesn't mean we where influenced by what was said. I voted leave and would do it over and over again given the chance to.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> You keep telling me that the campaigns didn't influence you, remarkably they didn't influence anybody. Remind me again what truths were involved about why you voted leave?


:Yawn
:Yawn
:Yawn


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> :Yawn
> :Yawn
> :Yawn


Great isn't it. Nobody can answer other than I wasn't influenced by.. You've demonstrated by your google searching that you simply don't like the EU, not that you can provide evidence that the UK will be better off or the world will be improved by leaving.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Oh I know.. you'll simply blame others for anything which goes wrong..


Where precisely did stockwell blame others? I put it to you he conveyed quiet specifically the procedure surrounding the triggering of artical 50. You chose to translate that data to suit your interputation.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Great isn't it. Nobody can answer other than I wasn't influenced by.. You've demonstrated by your google searching that you simply don't like the EU, not that you can provide evidence that the UK will be better off or the world will be improved by leaving.


There are no guarantees that we will be better, many of us believe we will be but that is not cast in stone, but in the same vane no on can guarantee that the eu will prosper in years to come, guess some of us chose to jump ship before we were pushed.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Great isn't it. Nobody can answer other than I wasn't influenced by.. You've demonstrated by your google searching that you simply don't like the EU, not that you can provide evidence that the UK will be better off or the world will be improved by leaving.


For god sake. I've done my google searching to show you why I wanted to leave because you wouldn't take my word for it, and still you whinge 

I don't need your stupid tit for tat crap


----------



## Odin_cat

stockwellcat said:


> Lord Howard has suggested the UK government could go to war with Spain to protect Gibraltar. The UK government has said it will work with Gibraltar to keep Gibraltar British and the UK will not give Gibraltar up.


He's done a brilliant job of alienating the otherwise relatively indifferent Spanish public. Great negotiating skills :/.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Didn't influence me one iota. I voted the way I always said I would. Just because I and many others quoted things on here during the Referendum campaign doesn't mean we where influenced by what was said. I voted leave and would do it over and over again given the chance to.


Would you like to tell us what your reasons leave are.


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> For god sake. I've done my google searching to show you why I wanted to leave because you wouldn't take my word for it, and still you whinge
> 
> I don't need your stupid tit for tat crap


Hang on in there, we have two years of this to look forward to NOT,
Seriously, take care of those that are important to you, this thread will still be here when you get back!
And in reply to goblin we DONT have to explain to you why we chose to vote as we did, its none of our business, same as the reasons to why you voted as to how you did and how you rhink the eu will be better


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> Would you like to tell us what your reasons leave are.


Would you care to tell us the reasons,you voted to remain?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Lord Howard has suggested the UK government could go to war with Spain to protect Gibraltar. The UK government has said it will work with Gibraltar to keep Gibraltar British and the UK will not give Gibraltar up.


Do you really think that was a wise move just four days into triggering Article 50?

Not a good way to start negotiations with the 27 member states is it.

It's Gibraltar's business whether they want to remain "British" or not but talk of a war between a former ally so soon into the Brexit negotiations was ill advised to put it mildly.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Do you really think that was a wise move just four days into triggering Article 50?
> 
> Not a good way to start negotiations with the 27 member states is it.
> 
> It's Gibraltar's business whether they want to remain "British" or not but talk of a war between a former ally so soon into the Brexit negotiations was ill advised to put it mildly.


Oddly, I agree with you. But there is a saying, goes something like fight fire with fire!
They are all throwing their weight about at the moment, it will, I hope, calm down


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Do you really think that was a wise move just four days into triggering Article 50?
> 
> Not a good way to start negotiations with the 27 member states is it.
> 
> It's Gibraltar's business whether they want to remain "British" or not but talk of a war between a former ally so soon into the Brexit negotiations was ill advised to put it mildly.


For once I kind of agree with you @KittenKong. I too like @DT said hope this all calms down and this doesn't happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Would you like to tell us what your reasons leave are.


Why should I?

I thought votes where ment to be your own business. I do not have to explain myself to you @KittenKong, @noushka05 or any other remain voters.

I do not owe you an explaination.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Do you really think that was a wise move just four days into triggering Article 50?
> 
> Not a good way to start negotiations with the 27 member states is it.
> 
> It's Gibraltar's business whether they want to remain "British" or not but talk of a war between a former ally so soon into the Brexit negotiations was ill advised to put it mildly.


When did SpaIn become a former ally?


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> For once I kind of agree with you. I too like @DT said hope this all calms down and this doesn't happen.


For once you agree with me? I am truelgutted lol


stockwellcat said:


> Why should I?
> 
> I thought votes where ment to be your own business. I do not have to explain myself to you @KittenKong, @noushka05 or any other remain voters.
> 
> I do not owe you an explaination.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> For once you agree with me? I am truelgutted lol


Sorry wrong person 
I always agree with you @DT, the post was ment for @KittenKong.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> For once I kind of agree with you. I too like @DT said hope this all calms down and this doesn't happen.





stockwellcat said:


> Why should I?
> 
> I thought votes where ment to be your own business. I do not have to explain myself to you @KittenKong, @noushka05 or any other remain voters.
> 
> I do not owe you an explaination.


Dont be silly, we all need to have a documented explanation now before we can enter the polling booth! ,tut tut, where have you been


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Posted this on the other thread too - even Ed Milliband is saying he would abide by the results of the referendum and that remainers need to get on the pitch and stop fighting the last war.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/y...9fa03babee499e510d121f783a70094e&action=click


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> When did SpaIn become a former ally?


The 27 member states were allies, they are now competitors. Triggering Article 50 re-enforced that.

A threat of war towards a former ally within the EU would have been unheard of only a year ago.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Dont be silly, we all need to have a documented explanation now before we can enter the polling booth! ,tut tut, where have you been


Oh free votes are out of the window then.

We have to be influenced by someone according to the remainers, we don't have the intelligence to cast our own votes according to the remainers. But when they hear or read that people chose to vote with there own reasons the s**t hits the fan as it doesn't fit the remainers logic or way of thinking.

Just to let you know remainers I can make my Independent decisions, I chose to vote because it was my democratic right to and I was allowed to. I voted the way I did so get over it.

@DT I know you voted leave just like me so this wasn't aimed at you


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The 27 member states were allies, they are now competitors. Triggering Article 50 re-enforced that.
> 
> A threat of war towards a former ally within the EU would have been unheard of only a year ago.


Well luckily Lord Howard is 1) Not a negotiatior for Brexit and 2) has been slapped down by TM.


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/y...9fa03babee499e510d121f783a70094e&action=click


Why should people abide by a opinion poll based on lies with people unable to provide advantages to leave? Nothing to say it's the last war or that it has been lost.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Oh free votes are out of the window then.
> 
> We have to be influenced by someone according to the remainers, we don't have the intelligence to cast our own votes according to the remainers. But when they hear or read that people choice to vote with there own reasons the s**t hits the fan as it doesn't fit the remainers logic or way of thinking.
> 
> Just to let you know remainers I can make my Independent decisions, I chose to vote because it was my democratic right to and I was allowed to. I voted the way I did so get over it.
> 
> @DT I know you voted leave just like me so this wasn't aimed at you


Spot on! Yep, seems now we have to explain, it must ha e been that dreadful leave campaign that influenced us!


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> The 27 member states were allies, they are now competitors. Triggering Article 50 re-enforced that.
> 
> A threat of war towards a former ally within the EU would have been unheard of only a year ago.


Oh geez don't be so dramatic. Spain and the rest of Europe are still allies. Based on your logic the EU and the countries within in have no allies outside themselves. E.g. USA, Japan, Canada, South Africa, Australia, etc which is clearly not true. As for the "threat of war".... really... Micheal Howard I presume your referring to? Remind me again aside from being a Lord, what top government position he holds?..


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Why should people abide by a opinion poll based on lies with people unable to provide advantages to leave? Nothing to say it's the last war or that it has been lost.


So you'd be willing to P**s off 17.4 million people if you was pm and say oh it was only an opinion poll even though everyone was told that the result would be respected and upheld. Good luck to you if you was pm but you aren't.

The will of the people that won the Referendum is being respected. Just like the will of the people in 1973 was respected to join the EC even though this was also a non binding referendum as well. The UK did not get a referendum to join the EU at all.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Why should people abide by a opinion poll based on lies with people unable to provide advantages to leave? Nothing to say it's the last war or that it has been lost.


Well you give me reason to remain! The eu have shown their true colours, the want to make it as hard as they can to their former allies! Very nice club that proved to be!


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Well you give me reason to remain! The eu have shown their true colours, the want to make it as hard as they can to their former allies! Very nice club that proved to be!


I know what I would do if it was me negotiating on behalf of the UK. Yep that's right walk out the door saying no deal.


----------



## suewhite

I really cant believe some of the names and abuse I have taken on another forum, if the remain vote had won I would have excepted it and not thrown my dummy out, it took me along time and a lot of reading and investigation before I voted Brexit.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> The 27 member states were allies, they are now competitors. Triggering Article 50 re-enforced that.
> 
> 
> 
> stockwellcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know what I would do if it was me negotiating on behalf of the UK. Yep that's right walk out the door and tell them to grow up and say no deal.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, seeing as I prefer japanese cars to german, can live without french cheese and wine,, dont like tulips, they droop to fast and olive oil can be replaced with rapeseed so have to say me too!
> Its a two way road, they want to make it hard for us, go ahead, we will survive
Click to expand...


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I know what I would do if it was me negotiating on behalf of the UK. Yep that's right walk out the door saying no deal.


And next?

What next?
Small reminder: Tory manifesto pledged access to single market?
What about Welsh farmers? 350mln weekly for NHS? Brexit bill? Scotland? NI? Gibraltar? Falklands? City?
EU nationals? British expats?

Quite a few very, very upset people you would have to answer to?


----------



## 1290423

suewhite said:


> I really cant believe some of the names and abuse I have taken on another forum, if the remain vote had won I would have excepted it and not thrown my dummy out, it took me along time and a lot of reading and investigation before I voted Brexit.


Same here sue, we also had splits in the family terrible really when one person cannot accept anothers decision


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> And next?
> 
> What next?


Keep Gibraltar as the UK would have left.

Still trade with EU on WTO rules and strike trade deals world over. The EU isn't the be all and end all.

What other way would there be?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Keep Gibraltar as the UK would have left.
> 
> Still trade with EU on WTO rules and strike trade deals world over. The EU isn't the be all and end all.
> 
> What other way would there be?


Hmmm.WTO could be blocked by Argentina and Spain. When what?
How about the Ireland / NI and Gibraltar / Spain frontiers?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Hmmm.WTO could be blocked by Argentina and Spain. When what?


Australia
New Zealand
Pakistan
USA
South Korea
Malaysia
Greenland
India
Iceland
South American Countries eg Brazil, Mexico etc, etc.

We'd still be trading through the EEA as well as no one has mentioned leaving this yet


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Australia
> New Zealand
> Pakistan
> USA
> South Korea
> Greenland
> India
> Iceland
> South American Countries eg Brazil, Mexico etc, etc.
> 
> We'd still be trading through the EEA as well as no one has mentioned leaving this yet


Very far, very limited. Greenland? Iceland? Must say you sound like Davies.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Well you give me reason to remain! The eu have shown their true colours, the want to make it as hard as they can to their former allies! Very nice club that proved to be!


Hillarious, you keep trying that instead of having an answer. Must be taking lessons from Farage who never answers either.



Goblin said:


> Maybe but unfortunately I can't find reasoning for leaving which are based on facts. Otherwise I would
> 
> As for staying, maybe you forgot:





> providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.





> Interestingly you never provided anything in response.


As for stockwellcat saying we'd be trading through the EEA, that is wrong. That was an option we reject with a hard brexit. It's commonly called the Norway model.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Very far, very limited. Greenland? Iceland? Must say you sound like Davies.


Well what would you suggest then Gibraltar given to Spain?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Hillarious, you keep trying that instead of having an answer. Must be taking lessons from Farage who never answers either.
> 
> As for stockwellcat saying we'd be trading through the EEA, that is wrong. That was an option we reject with a hard brexit. It's commonly called the Norway model.


We will still trade with Greenland and Australia.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Hillarious, you keep trying that instead of having an answer. Must be taking lessons from Farage who never answers either.
> 
> As for stockwellcat saying we'd be trading through the EEA, that is wrong. That was an option we reject with a hard brexit. It's commonly called the Norway model.


EEA is separate from the EU. Do I have to prove this to you like I did with the UK still being in the WTO?


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Hillarious, you keep trying that instead of having an answer. Must be taking lessons from Farage who never answers either.
> 
> .


Keep repeating the old garbage over and over sunshire and eventually you'll believe it! Some of us are not quite so gullible


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Well what would you suggest then Gibraltar given to Spain?


Not at all. Just the depth of understanding.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Not at all. Just the depth of understanding.


I do understand that Gibraltar wants to remain British so they are going to have to accept what the UK Government decide to do. The UK Government have made it clear that the UK is not willing to give Gibraltar up or sell Gibraltar.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Goblin said:


> Why should people abide by a opinion poll based on lies with people unable to provide advantages to leave? Nothing to say it's the last war or that it has been lost.


So if the result had gone your way why should people abide by that opinion poll either? By last war I assumed Ed meant last as in most recent not last as in the last one ever so the way I understood what he was saying was that a) he didn't want the referendum and if he had won the last election he would not have held it b) once the referendum went ahead he agrees the results should be binding and that politicians should accept the wishes of the majority who voted and C) all this moaning is not going to achieve anything nor is living in the past and d) get back on the pitch and support negotiations for a good deal for us whilst fighting/opposing anything the government try to sneak in which they have no mandate for. I wonder if part of the vitriol coming from the remain camp is because they don't see any effective opposition in place - the opposition seems weak and ineffective. Perhaps you should be directing your anger and your energies there rather than harking on nearly a year later demanding to know why people voted how they did.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Oh geez don't be so dramatic. Spain and the rest of Europe are still allies. Based on your logic the EU and the countries within in have no allies outside themselves. E.g. USA, Japan, Canada, South Africa, Australia, etc which is clearly not true. As for the "threat of war".... really... Micheal Howard I presume your referring to? Remind me again aside from being a Lord, what top government position he holds?..


As I said on another thread it was Micheal Howard who brought the matter of war with Spain over Gibraltar up, not myself.

You can't honestly believe it was a wise move at the start of Brexit negotiations.

People are already extremely worried what the future has in store. The last thing that was needed was a threat of war from anyone, especially a former EU colleague.

Yes, I agree they are allies, but for how long?

The way May and her government/some party members are behaving they'll have no friends in Europe left very soon, if they haven't already become ex friends.

Just Donald Trump.

Glory hallelujah!


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I do understand that Gibraltar wants to remain British so they are going to have to accept what the UK Government decide to do. The UK Government have made it clear that the UK is not willing to give Gibraltar up or sell Gibraltar.


Lovely. What about THE FRONTIER?
There will be no war with Spain other than tomatina

They prefer hostile neutrality. War is not their thing. They needed Brits to save them from Napoleon.
Buy package hols and Sangria.


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So if the result had gone your way why should people abide by that opinion poll either? By last war I assumed Ed meant last as in most recent not last as in the last one ever so the way I understood what he was saying was that a) he didn't want the referendum and if he had won the last election he would not have held it b) once the referendum went ahead he agrees the results should be binding and that politicians should accept the wishes of the majority who voted and C) all this moaning is not going to achieve anything nor is living in the past and d) get back on the pitch and support negotiations for a good deal for us whilst fighting/opposing anything the government try to sneak in which they have no mandate for. I wonder if part of the vitriol coming from the remain camp is because they don't see any effective opposition in place - the opposition seems weak and ineffective. Perhaps you should be directing your anger and your energies there rather than harking on nearly a year later demanding to know why people voted how they did.


Refreshing to say the,least, hope this gets through. Ive given up


----------



## 1290423

8207 posts and yet a year gone by, Omg when will it stop?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Lovely. What about THE FRONTIER?
> There will be no war with Spain other than tomatina
> 
> They prefer hostile neutrality. War is nit their thing. They needed Brits ro save them from Napoleon.
> Buy package hols and Sangria.


I know they rely on the UK citizens to holiday there as it keeps the Spainards in business. Do you really think they will kick up a stink about the rock? I don't think so in all honesty. They need us to keep Spain booming. Do you think they might do a spainexit so they can Independently trade with the UK?


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> As I said on another thread it was Micheal Howard who brought the matter of war with Spain over Gibraltar up, not myself.
> 
> You can't honestly believe it was a wise move at the start of Brexit negotiations.
> 
> People are already extremely worried what the future has in store. The last thing that was needed was a threat of war from anyone, especially a former EU colleague.
> 
> Yes, I agree they are allies, but for how long?
> 
> The way May and her government/some party members are behaving they'll have no friends in Europe left very soon, if they haven't already become ex friends.
> 
> Just Donald Trump.
> 
> Glory hallelujah!


Well guess they must be very fickle then!


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> I know they rely on the UK citizens to holiday there as it keeps the Spainards in business. Do you really think they will kick up a stink about the rock? I don't think so in all honesty. They need us to keep Spain booming. Do you think they might do a spainexit so they can Independently trade with the UK?


Dont be silly, they have stawberries,! Bloody awful they are too


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So if the result had gone your way why should people abide by that opinion poll either?


Despite what is said since they won, leavers wouldn't have. Evidence already exists. 2nd referendum petition started by a leave campaigner not by someone who voted to remain. Farage said he would continue to push and campaign to leave until they won, then changed his tune. Leaving once we leave is permanent in terms of the advantages we have currently in the EU. Not like a general election where people can change their minds and people have if you look at independent opinion polls about how they voted.



> b) once the referendum went ahead he agrees the results should be binding and that politicians should accept the wishes of the majority who voted


So lies and misinformation is used to set policy based on what equates to an opinion poll. Should be binding is far from is binding. Maybe you should look at what Teresa May has said about reasons not to allow the 2nd Scottish referendum. You can actually replace Scottish referendum with the EU referendum for the reasoning.



> get back on the pitch and support negotiations for a good deal for us whilst fighting/opposing anything the government try to sneak in which they have no mandate for.


That's rich.. when people can not provide any information as to what is a good deal and cannot even agree what they voted for. When people pretend that we can do things when in reality we cannot. What is a good deal when the UK is damaged by any realistic deal? Where May refuses to allow discussion but sets policy without consultation and taking concerns on board with no chance for the UK population to agree or disagree with any final agreement?

Some on this thread push the WTO option.. stating how great it is. Let's look at a leave site shall we:
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> As I said on another thread it was Micheal Howard who brought the matter of war with Spain over Gibraltar up, not myself.
> 
> You can't honestly believe it was a wise move at the start of Brexit negotiations.
> 
> People are already extremely worried what the future has in store. The last thing that was needed was a threat of war from anyone, especially a former EU colleague.
> 
> Yes, I agree they are allies, but for how long?
> 
> The way May and her government/some party members are behaving they'll have no friends in Europe left very soon, if they haven't already become ex friends.
> 
> Just Donald Trump.
> 
> Glory hallelujah!


I know you didn't bring up the mention of war... Micheal Howard is a former politician now living his life in the comfy seats of the lords. He doesn't really have any input in any negotiation and tbh his words are taken slightly out of context anyway as he was merely replying to the comments about Gibraltar and said that Thatcher had a similar issue with Argentina and he hoped that the PM would show the same resolve to protect the citizens of Gibraltar. Note that he has no inside info, he has no ability to provide pressure to change this, it was just his opinion.

As for allies, tbh I do not see our long standing relationship with most of the European countries changing to much. Yes with the EU as a whole, but with individual countries we already retain direct relationships that go deeper and lasted longer than the EU has been about. France and Norway as an example.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Refreshing to say the,least, hope this gets through. Ive given up


That's because you don't even discuss and provide evidence to support anything other than spin.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> That's because you don't even discuss and provide evidence to support anything other than spin.


Least I don't sit under a bridge with my pink hair standing on end!


----------



## Goblin

stuaz said:


> I know you didn't bring up the mention of war... Micheal Howard is a former politician now living his life in the comfy seats of the lords. He doesn't really have any input in any negotiation and tbh his words are taken slightly out of context anyway as he was merely replying to the comments about Gibraltar and said that Thatcher had a similar issue with Argentina and he hoped that the PM would show the same resolve to protect the citizens of Gibraltar. Note that he has no inside info, he has no ability to provide pressure to change this, it was just his opinion.


Whilst I agree in part, the comparison between the falklands and gibraltar are false. Motives for the falklands can also be seen to be different. Was the falklands really about keeping sovereignty or about keeping Maggie in power? The most dangerous thing is the media jumping on this and pushing the nationalistic drive seen throughout the referendum campaign and people supporting it which is the last thing needed at the moment.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> 8207 posts and yet a year gone by, Omg when will it stop?


I know what you mean


----------



## stuaz

Goblin said:


> Whilst I agree in part, the comparison between the falklands and gibraltar are false. Motives for the falklands can also be seen to be different. Was the falklands really about keeping sovereignty or about keeping Maggie in power? The most dangerous thing is the media jumping on this and pushing the nationalistic drive seen throughout the referendum campaign and people supporting it which is the last thing needed at the moment.


Tbh @Goblin, while I mean no disrespect to the armed forces on both sides of that conflict, I actually believe thatcher went into the war for her own benefit rather than that of the citizens of the Falklands. That's not to say I think Argentina was right to invade, on the contrary but Thacther had other aims.

I said on another thread recently that often politicans will divert to territory disputes to divert from issues at home, Argentina, Russia are two examples of this. I to hope the media don't turn Gibraltar into a nationalisttic type thing as you say.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> You are bang on. The referendum was a life changing decision yet we were not only illinformed but blatantly lied to by the pro leave campaign.


Whereas the remain campaigners were as pure as the driven snow and wouldn't dream of telling porkies.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Great isn't it. Nobody can answer other than I wasn't influenced by.. You've demonstrated by your google searching that you simply don't like the EU, not that you can provide evidence that the UK will be better off or the world will be improved by leaving.


Yes they can answer. They choose not too.


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> Would you like to tell us what your reasons leave are.


No thanks.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Do you really think that was a wise move just four days into triggering Article 50?
> 
> Not a good way to start negotiations with the 27 member states is it.


Yes.

Yes.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Tbh @Goblin, while I mean no disrespect to the armed forces on both sides of that conflict, I actually believe thatcher went into the war for her own benefit rather than that of the citizens of the Falklands. That's not to say I think Argentina was right to invade, on the contrary but Thacther had other aims.
> 
> I said on another thread recently that often politicans will divert to territory disputes to divert from issues at home, Argentina, Russia are two examples of this. I to hope the media don't turn Gibraltar into a nationalisttic type thing as you say.


Funny thing. Now we need all the national pride Brits can.muster and persuade them, regardless of their vote in Brexit, they need now ditch Marbs and Sangria for a little while.
Hols in Portugal instead? Or good ole Brighton?

Not joking. At all. You can come here actually. I would be most happy to do the honours.

But can anyone tell me why May preferred to listen to Spain and not to put Gibraltar in Article 50? Despite advice from Foreign Ministry?

They correctly predicted this scenario.

International press sees it as show of clumsiness in Brexit negotiations on British side .

From our experience here we can assure you: Spain does not keep any agreements. Starting with Treaty of Utrecht 1713.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Why should people abide by a opinion poll based on lies with people unable to provide advantages to leave? Nothing to say it's the last war or that it has been lost.


It was not an opinion poll. The government of the day promised that it was binding. Check your pants.


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> It was not an opinion poll. The government of the day promised that it was binding. Check your pants.


Government of the day should have made it binding then according to the constitution which they could have. Politicians and others also stated:

We send £350m a week to Brussels
We can't stop Turkey joining
We can't stop a European army
We are still liable to pay eurozone bailouts
The UK rebate can be changed against our will
Our VAT exemptions will be ended
Cameron's deal was not legally binding
EU law is adopted by unelected bureaucrats
We can't control our borders in the EU
Criminals arriving in Germany can get EU passports and come over here
Health tourism costs us billions
EU needs UK trade more than vice versa
Past referendum results have been ignored
Auditors still refuse to sign off the accounts
CAP adds £400 to British food bills
British steel suffers because of the EU
Irish border will be unaffected by Brexit
UK can't deport EU criminals
UK is always outvoted
60-70% of laws come from EU
Renationalisation of industries is impossible
We get no veto on future treaty change or integration
The budget ceiling can increase without our consent
We thought we were only joining a free trade zone
A politician saying something does not mean it is true. Now if you can find evidence of your claim it was binding according to the UK constitution somewhere in your pants maybe that would be a start. Nobody so far has. Farage even admitted the referendum was not binding during an interview after the result. The video is somewhere already in this thread.

Of course the same government whose words must be true also stated a commitment to stay within the single market.


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny thing. Now we need all the national pride Brits can.muster and persuade them, regardless of their vote in Brexit, they need now ditch Marbs and Sangria for a little while.


You need patriotism, not nationalism. Subtle but important difference. You need the people of the UK to support you, not sabre rattling.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> No thanks.


Like so many then, you don't have a good reason. Just voted leave because you thought it was a good idea.


----------



## KittenKong

This is what we didn't need just five days into Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

I'll respond to this here if you don't mind.

As for being told not to panic from what we've seen only five days into the Brexit process is a threat of war against a former EU ally over Gibraltar which would have been preventable had the UK remained in the EU (EU and UK under a common umbrella like NI and ROI were).

Yes I know a senior Tory said this yesterday but some of the press have already made it front page news which certainly has a lot of deja vu about it.

The Falklands war could have been prevented, but look what it did for Thatcher's ailing government? Through the gutter press with derogatory terms shown towards Argentina and Argentinians, so much some top Argentinian football players were prevented from playing the last thing we need is a repeat of this.
Around 1,000 people were killed in that war.

British wars win votes......

Do we really want to see UK expats being forced to abandon Spain to the UK, being "rescued" by the Royal Navy if England declare war? Not forgetting Spanish hostility towards the English in such an event, (I'm sure Spain must have Sun/Mail/Express type on line and papers too), while Spanish people in the UK could be targeted as well.

OK- many will dismiss this as scaremongering. I am NOT saying this IS going to happen. Hopefully the vile Micheal Howard will be reprimanded by his party for making ridiculous suggestions the press are going to report as "Patriotic pride" and make noise about a possibility of a "post Brexit war".

It was damn right irresponsible but as of yet no Tories have appeared to have spoken out condemning his words.

Not something we want to hear just four/five days into the Brexit process. It'll do nothing to secure a good deal with the rest of the 27 nations under the EU umbrella.

The "panic" is likely to last two decades, not years.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Like so many then, you don't have a good reason. Just voted leave because you thought it was a good idea.


My reason for voting leave as I said before is none of your business and I do not have to explain myself to you.

What you are asking is like standing at the polling box at election day and saying who did you vote for. This is a free democratic country and my vote was a free vote. Mind your own business.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> My reason for voting leave as I said before is none of your business and I do not have to explain myself to you.
> 
> What you are asking a is like standing at the polling box at election day and saying who did you vote for. This is a free democratic country and my vote was a free vote. Mind your own business.


Well shut up and stop moaning at the remainers they have rights as well!!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> *Well shut up* and stop moaning at the remainers they have rights as well!!!!


NO.

I am entitled to my opinion.

How rude are you.

I am not the one moaning and taking to the streets moaning either.

You can stick me on ignore you know.


----------



## stockwellcat.

These are the people you should be angry at remainers.

Remain voters voted leave because they didn't take the Referendum seriously:



> I'm a bit shocked to be honest.
> 
> I'm shocked that we actually have voted to Leave, I didn't think that was going to happen.
> 
> My vote, I didn't think was going to matter too much because I thought we were just going to Remain, and the David Cameron resignation has blown me away to be honest.
> 
> I think the period of uncertainty that we're going to have for the next couple of months, that's just been magnified now.
> 
> So yeah, quite worried.


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/man-w...oron-of-the-year-award-5964450/#ixzz4dACTTCaF


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> NO.
> 
> *You can stick me on ignore you know.*


Why would I do that, like so many others on here you just make me laugh with your silly I've won attitude!


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 305244
> 
> 
> I'll respond to this here if you don't mind.
> 
> As for being told not to panic from what we've seen only five days into the Brexit process is a threat of war against a former EU ally over Gibraltar which would have been preventable had the UK remained in the EU (EU and UK under a common umbrella like NI and ROI were).
> 
> Yes I know a senior Tory said this yesterday but some of the press have already made it front page news which certainly has a lot of deja vu about it.
> 
> The Falklands war could have been prevented, but look what it did for Thatcher's ailing government? Through the gutter press with derogatory terms shown towards Argentina and Argentinians, so much some top Argentinian football players were prevented from playing the last thing we need is a repeat of this.
> Around 1,000 people were killed in that war.
> 
> British wars win votes......
> 
> Do we really want to see UK expats being forced to abandon Spain to the UK, being "rescued" by the Royal Navy if England declare war? Not forgetting Spanish hostility towards the English in such an event, (I'm sure Spain must have Sun/Mail/Express type on line and papers too), while Spanish people in the UK could be targeted as well.
> 
> OK- many will dismiss this as scaremongering. I am NOT saying this IS going to happen. Hopefully the vile Micheal Howard will be reprimanded by his party for making ridiculous suggestions the press are going to report as "Patriotic pride" and make noise about a possibility of a "post Brexit war".
> 
> It was damn right irresponsible but as of yet no Tories have appeared to have spoken out condemning his words.
> 
> Not something we want to hear just four/five days into the Brexit process. It'll do nothing to secure a good deal with the rest of the 27 nations under the EU umbrella.
> 
> The "panic" is likely to last two decades, not years.


Obviously there will be no war with Spain.
Spain just played May like violin. That is all.
May did not put Gibraltar in Article 50 as they put NI.

Very much being duped if it was at the request of Spain.
She just recently came from a visit to Spain saying " Spain will be no problem".
So no kidding. From that moment we knew we would not be included.
Now I hear some insulting us comments from British media about contraband ? Well...it is frontier, so no surprise. Most done actually by residents of Spain, legal and illegal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> You need patriotism, not nationalism. Subtle but important difference. You need the people of the UK to support you, not sabre rattling.




Absolutely. Send us bigger boats though..
Still it is very nice of EU knowing well Spanish bullying and problems they caused by bloody minded attitude, to give them any rights about our future.
They intervened so many times and we did nothing to deserve being dumped like that.

So now EU does not care about human rights of Gibraltar any more?

We still in EU?
We wanted and supported EU?

No amount of political spiel makes it look right.
Just because we are not big and mighty it is ok to to use it as pawn in the game?

Betrayed by both sides.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> It is a sad sad world, when people like Brits stop caring about real politics. It´s like handing in a democracy for any conartist, who comes along and promises the people the moon and the sun. Dazzled by that people say, yes, I always liked them, but others were just so mean and didn´t want to give them to us. Even npw people say lets wait and see instead of lets make sure we won´t loose too much and keep a close eye on what will be decided.
> 
> Now is the time Britain really needs people like you, as most just don´t care or understand what is at stake here.


All reason seems to have gone out of the window .

Yes I keep hearing - ' we have to give it a couple of years', 'give them a chance' Why? You only have to hear what the government themselves are saying to see brexit is going to be train wreck. If there was any logic people would by doing all they could to derail it before anymore damage is done.

Surely you don't even need a critical mind to see we have the most right wing government in modern history? Its so blatantly obvious. This is never going to bode well for our country.



suewhite said:


> While I respect your views noushka, it wasn't one-sided remain also did there share of fear and miss leading information, of course people care just because they voted Brexit doesn't mean they don't care.


Likewise Sue 

Every major reason given by the leave campaign is now a proven lie. That is not the case with the remains arguments, Sue.

Pro remainers warned us we would have less hope of tackling climate change outside the EU - the greatest threat to life on earth. This alone was enough reason for me to vote IN. Remain pointed out all that 'red tape' the hard right were desperate to cut protected our environment, workers rights, food safety etc from corporate greed. They warned us our economy would suffer & we would be poorer (except very wealthy people like Satori  ) Hate crime would rise, 40 years of peace would be put in jeopardy, we would submit to the US - so much for 'taking our country back', hey? . Our already crippled NHS would suffer. With each day that passes it becomes ever more clear what the remain campaign predicted would happen - is indeed happening & it terrifies me.

(Have you heard about the Great repeal bill? This is code for a right wing power grab.)

Any one of the reasons given above was a coherent reason to remain imo. But I am still yet to hear a single coherent reason for leaving?

I know many people who voted leave do care, Sue . But those who care wouldn't want brexit whatever the cost, would they? Surely.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Didn't influence me one iota. I voted the way I always said I would. Just because I and many others quoted things on here during the Referendum campaign doesn't mean we where influenced by what was said. I voted leave and would do it over and over again given the chance to.


You make my point. You didn't want to be informed. You'd already made up your mind.


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> Well shut up and stop moaning at the remainers they have rights as well!!!!


I think you will find that the leave voters aren't moaning as you put it, we don't have anything to moan about. Just responding to all the moaning you remainers are doing.
Just for the record, i too think you are very rude.
Its been said many times before, we don.'t have to give you our reasons why we voted leave, that's for us to know. We are all entitled to our own opinion, and that includes all you remainers as well.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> All reason seems to have gone out of the window .
> 
> Yes I keep hearing - ' we have to give it a couple of years', 'give them a chance' Why? You only have to hear what the government themselves are saying to see know brexit is going to be train wreck. If there was any logic people would by doing all they could to derail it before anymore damage is done.
> 
> Surely you don't even need a critical mind to see we have the most right wing government in modern history? Its so blatantly obvious. This is never going to bode well for our country.
> 
> Likewise Sue
> 
> Every major reason the given by the leave campaign is now a proven lie. That is not the case with the remains arguments, Sue.
> 
> Pro remainers warned us we would have less hope of tackling climate change outside the EU - the greatest threat to life on earth. This alone was enough reason for me to vote IN. Remain pointed out all that 'red tape' the hard right were desperate to cut protected our environment, workers rights, food safety etc from corporate greed. They warned us our economy would suffer & we would be poorer (except very wealthy people like Satori  ) Hate crime would rise, 40 years of peace would be put in jeopardy, we would submit to the US - so much for 'taking our country back', hey? . Our already crippled NHS would suffer. With each day that passes it becomes ever more clear what the remain campaign predicted would happen - is indeed happening & it terrifies me.
> 
> (Have you heard about the Great repeal bill? This is code for a right wing power grab.)
> 
> Any one of the reasons given above was a coherent reason to remain imo. But I am still yet to hear a single coherent reason for leaving?
> 
> I know many people who voted leave do care, Sue . But those who care wouldn't want brexit whatever the cost, would they? Surely.


Situation with Gibraltar shows that May would happy to sell her Granny to get Brexit.

No matter how many will suffer we have Brexit!

Si where is that flag waving now?

EU: We are happy to allow our members to bully some other nations, as long as they not in our club.

It looks like" I do not like this neighbour, so I will kick their dog or poison their cat".


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Australia
> New Zealand
> Pakistan
> USA
> South Korea
> Malaysia
> Greenland
> India
> Iceland
> South American Countries eg Brazil, Mexico etc, etc.
> 
> We'd still be trading through the EEA as well as no one has mentioned leaving this yet


You believed Brexit leaders when they told us Commonwealth countries like Australia are queueing up to trade with us? Oops


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You make my point. You didn't want to be informed. You'd already made up your mind.


Crying out loud.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You believed Brexit leaders when they told us Commonwealth countries like Australia are queueing up to trade with us? Oops
> 
> View attachment 305246


That's funny as the Australian PM has said he has a trade deal ready for the UK for when the UK Brexits.

How old is you snippet of information?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Crying out loud.
> View attachment 305247


:Hilarious



stockwellcat said:


> That's funny as the Australian PM has said he has a trade deal ready for the UK for when the UK Brexits.
> 
> How old is you snippet of information?


Here's another one - http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1703/S00423/new-zealand-to-open-new-embassy-in-ireland.htm

*New Zealand to open new embassy in Ireland*
*Friday, 24 March 2017, 8:58 am*
*Press Release: New Zealand Government*
Hon Murray McCully
Minister of Foreign Affairs 
24 March 2017

New Zealand to open new embassy in Ireland

Foreign Minister Murray McCully has announced that New Zealand will open an embassy in Dublin, Ireland.

"New Zealand and Ireland enjoy a very warm relationship which is underpinned by our shared values," Mr McCully says.

"We work closely together on issues such as climate change, disarmament, and human rights, and are also both members of the Small Advanced Economies Initiative.

"Having an embassy in Dublin will enable us to build on and strengthen this relationship.

"Ireland is an important member of the European Union, so the Embassy will also support New Zealand's interests in Europe, including as they relate to the negotiation of a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU."

The Government, through Budget 2017, has committed $4.8 million in capital funding to establish the embassy and a further $9.1million to cover operating costs over the next four years.

The new funding was announced today as part of the launch of Trade Agenda 2030.
More information can be found at www.mfat.govt.nz/tradeagenda2030.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> Here's another one - http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1703/S00423/new-zealand-to-open-new-embassy-in-ireland.htm
> 
> *New Zealand to open new embassy in Ireland*
> *Friday, 24 March 2017, 8:58 am
> Press Release: New Zealand Government*
> Hon Murray McCully
> Minister of Foreign Affairs
> 24 March 2017
> 
> New Zealand to open new embassy in Ireland
> 
> Foreign Minister Murray McCully has announced that New Zealand will open an embassy in Dublin, Ireland.
> 
> "New Zealand and Ireland enjoy a very warm relationship which is underpinned by our shared values," Mr McCully says.
> 
> "We work closely together on issues such as climate change, disarmament, and human rights, and are also both members of the Small Advanced Economies Initiative.
> 
> "Having an embassy in Dublin will enable us to build on and strengthen this relationship.
> 
> "Ireland is an important member of the European Union, so the Embassy will also support New Zealand's interests in Europe, including as they relate to the negotiation of a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU."
> 
> The Government, through Budget 2017, has committed $4.8 million in capital funding to establish the embassy and a further $9.1million to cover operating costs over the next four years.
> 
> The new funding was announced today as part of the launch of Trade Agenda 2030.
> More information can be found at www.mfat.govt.nz/tradeagenda2030.


:Hilarious:Hilarious
Ireland and Australia work closely on climate change. Next you'll be telling me they work closely on animal welfare even though Australia isn't very good with animal welfare :Hilarious:Hilarious

Of course they can open an embassy in Ireland. So. Doesn't mean anything.

Australia and New Zealand have both offered the UK a trade deal but of course the UK can't advance talks until after Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious
> Ireland and Australia work closely on climate change. Next you'll be telling me they work closely on animal welfare even though Australia isn't very good with animal welfare :Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> Of course they can open an embassy in Ireland. So. Doesn't mean anything.
> 
> Australia and New Zealand have both offered the UK a trade deal but of course the UK can't advance talks until after Brexit.


Sure EU can offer trade deals right now?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious
> Ireland and* Australia* work closely on climate change. Next you'll be telling me they work closely on animal welfare even though Australia isn't very good with animal welfare :Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> Of course they can open an embassy in Ireland. So. Doesn't mean anything.
> 
> Australia and New Zealand have both offered the UK a trade deal but of course the UK can't advance talks until after Brexit.


Ireland & New Zealand 

It means what Foreign Minister McCully says it means  -

*Having an embassy in Dublin will enable us to build on and strengthen this relationship.*

*"Ireland is an important member of the European Union, so the Embassy will also support New Zealand's interests in Europe, including as they relate to the negotiation of a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU*

We must be the only country in the world that doesn't want a free trade agreement with the EU. No wonder were a global laughing stock


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We must be the only country in the world that doesn't want a free trade agreement with the EU. No wonder were a global laughing stock


You must switch off when this is on the news. TM is seeking a comprehensive free trade deal with the EU but the EU said the UK'S departure must be negotiated first and when significant gains are made then a comprehensive trade deal will be discussed and it is all achievable in the next 24 months.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Ireland & New Zealand
> 
> It means what Foreign Minister McCully says it means  -
> 
> *Having an embassy in Dublin will enable us to build on and strengthen this relationship.*
> 
> *"Ireland is an important member of the European Union, so the Embassy will also support New Zealand's interests in Europe, including as they relate to the negotiation of a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU*


That's her opinion though.
The Prime Minister of New Zealand said he is wanting a free trade deal with the UK and has made significant gains in talks with Liam Fox but nothing can be agreed to until the UK Brexits from the EU. The trade deal is ready for the UK but the UK can't sign it yet. Also the PM of New Zealand said he is willing to not have a trade deal with the EU simply because of how difficult they are to negotiate with. So this single news report is conflicting information from what was previously said.


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> Like so many then, you don't have a good reason. Just voted leave because you thought it was a good idea.


I have my reasons. I think they are good ones. You most likely would not, (to the extent that you could understand them). That's ok; we all come at this from different places. Yes, I thought it was a good idea. Still do.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> You must switch off when this is on the news. TM is seeking a comprehensive free trade deal with the EU but the EU said the UK'S departure must be negotiated first and when significant gains are made then a comprehensive trade deal will be discussed and it is all achievable in the next 24 months.


A deal that will never be as good a deal as we have in the single market 

And any free trade agreement means they cant do anything significant about immigration 

Another major lie by the leave camp.


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> Why would I do that, like so many others on here you just make me laugh with your silly I've won attitude!


So much nicer than a silly I've lost attitude. :Mooning


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Lovely. What about THE FRONTIER?
> There will be no war with Spain other than tomatina
> And dont forget stuffed donkies, or are they out of fashion?
> 
> They prefer hostile neutrality. War is not their thing. They needed Brits to save them from Napoleon.
> Buy package hols and Sangria.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> That's her opinion though.
> The Prime Minister of New Zealand said he is wanting a free trade deal with the UK and has made significant gains in talks with Liam Fox but nothing can be agreed to until the UK Brexits from the EU. The trade deal is ready for the UK but the UK can't sign it yet. Also the PM of New Zealand said he is willing to not have a trade deal with the EU simply because of how difficult they are to negotiate with. So this single news report is conflicting information from what was previously said.


And that's why their EU door will be Ireland


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> That's her opinion though.
> The Prime Minister of New Zealand said he is wanting a free trade deal with the UK and has made significant gains in talks with Liam Fox but nothing can be agreed to until the UK Brexits from the EU. The trade deal is ready for the UK but the UK can't sign it yet. Also the PM of New Zealand said he is willing to not have a trade deal with the EU simply because of how difficult they are to negotiate with. So this single news report is conflicting information from what was previously said.


I think I'd trust _his _opinion over yours:Hilarious


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> NO.
> 
> I am entitled to my opinion.
> 
> How rude are you.
> 
> I am not the one moaning and taking to the streets moaning either.
> 
> You can stick me on ignore you know.


Yeah, let up stick you on ignore, you'll
be with good company me for starters


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I think I'd trust _his _opinion over yours:Hilarious


Yes I trust Bill English as well
*PM Bill English wants to sign free-trade deal with Britain 'as soon as possible' after Brexit*
http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/polit...with-britain-as-soon-as-possible-after-brexit


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> I think you will find that the leave voters aren't moaning as you put it, we don't have anything to moan about. Just responding to all the moaning you remainers are doing.
> Just for the record, i too think you are very rude.
> Its been said many times before, we don.'t have to give you our reasons why we voted leave, that's for us to know. We are all entitled to our own opinion, and that in
> cludes all you remainers as well.


Bang on the button with that interpretation.


----------



## 1290423

They should have said,

And dont forget the stuffed donkies cheeky x


----------



## suewhite

I think all the reasons were given on a previous thread last year when the vote was due and if my memory serves me that ended up in name calling instead of a constructive debate.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> And that's why their EU door will be Ireland


Oh yeah. Just twigged. 
Ireland is outside of the Schegen zone and they'd have to pay tarrifs to cross UK waters in both directions. So the deal with the EU wouldn't be free trade so to speak 

Just like the banks moving to Ireland supposedly, they wouldn't get passporting rights as Ireland isn't in the Schegen Zone and have to trade through the UK to the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> We still in EU?
> We wanted and supported EU?
> .


'Fraid not. Triggering Article 50 is as good as having left the EU.

Spain hasn't. I'm sorry to have to say I'm on the side of the EU who have to look after their own first. The UK unilaterally chose to leave after all.

I didn't ask to leave the EU either, but despite my constant and continuing support for it I'm set to lose my EU citizenship too. Theresa May says she knows what's best for me apparently.....

May believes she knows best concerning the affairs of Scotland, NI and Gibraltar despite large remain majorities in these countries.

Not surprisingly the Scottish government want another independence vote asking between a May led Hard Brexit Britain or a Scotland able to negotiate its own trade agreements. And good luck to them.

NI are making similar noises too.

Perhaps the people of Gibraltar may consider independence too under EU rule? That would at least keep Spain at bay and keep the borders open.

It's up to the people of Gibraltar what they prefer of course, but comments the colony is "British" or wish to remain "British" despite the hard Brexit might only be in name in the future if the UK itself breaks up!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> 'Fraid not. Triggering Article 50 is as good as having left the EU.
> 
> Spain hasn't. I'm sorry to have to say I'm on the side of the EU who have to look after their own first. The UK unilaterally chose to leave after all.
> 
> I didn't ask to leave the EU either.
> 
> May believes she knows best concerning the affairs of Scotland, NI and Gibraltar despite large remain majorities in these countries.
> 
> Not surprisingly the Scottish government want another independence vote asking between a May led Hard Brexit Britain or a Scotland able to negotiate its own trade agreements. And good luck to them.
> 
> NI are making similar noises too.


NI might be making noises but that's all they are as they don't have a devolved power sharing assembly. Whoops you forgot that bit. Just a point to make in 8 days time they could be under direct rule by Westminster via emergency legislation as there two week extension to create a power sharing assembly will be over. There is no appetite for another election in NI as they have had two in less than a year so direct rule via Westminster is the next alternative.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> That's funny as the Australian PM has said he has a trade deal ready for the UK for when the UK Brexits.


EU already has a deal with Australia. Australia has already said, like India they will require relaxation of the visa rules. Of couse trade deal ready isn't true either. It would have to be negotiatied after the UK leaves like every trade deal the UK wishes to make. How many negotiation teams are ready to go simultaneously I wonder?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> EEA is separate from the EU. Do I have to prove this to you like I did with the UK still being in the WTO?


Please do. I know there's a group who is arguing that it is separate however the UK government disagrees. Membership of the EEA comes with.. freedom of movement. Oops.



> The EEA joins together the 27 Member States of the European Union (EU) and the three EEA/EFTA States (*Liechtenstein*,*Iceland*, and *Norway*) in a Single Market with about 496 million [people], where the same basic rules apply to all participating States. The citizens of all 30 EEA Member States have *the right to move freely within the entire EEA, to live, work, establish companies, invest, and acquire real estate (often referred to as the "four freedoms")*. Article 4 of the EEA Agreement also prohibits any discrimination on grounds of nationality (principle of non-discrimination).


The main argument that the EEA is not coverred by article 50 is suggestive.. Article 127 of the EEA agreement states that you have to give at least 12 months notice if you want to leave. This "suggests" that the withdrawal process is separate to that of Article 50.
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/uks-high-court-throws-out-brexit-eea-case/
Another Link : http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/uks-high-court-throws-out-brexit-eea-case/

So please.. provide your information.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> NI might be making noises but that's all they are as they don't have a devolved power sharing assembly. Whoops you forgot that bit. Just a point to make in 8 days time they could be under direct rule by Westminster via emergency legislation as there two week extension to create a power sharing assembly will be over. There is no appetite for another election in NI as they have had two in less than a year so direct rule via Westminster is the next alternative.


Noises now, clearly many are unhappy with Brexit. The idea of direct Westminster rule will be welcomed by British Nationalists.

It'll do the peace process the world of good wouldn't it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

There nothing as blind as someone who can't see, that's all I'm going to say to the leaves I hope you'll be very happy.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> EU already has a deal with Australia. Australia has already said, like India they will require relaxation of the visa rules. Of couse trade deal ready isn't true either. It would have to be negotiatied after the UK leaves like every trade deal the UK wishes to make. How many negotiation teams are ready to go simultaneously I wonder?


Well the UK can negotiate whenever and with whoever they like. There's no reason deals can't be in place and ready to be signed on the 29th March 2019.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Happy Paws said:


> Well shut up and stop moaning at the remainers they have rights as well!!!!





Happy Paws said:


> There nothing as blind as someone who can't see, that's all I'm going to say to the leaves I hope you'll be very happy.


Who said at any time that you don't have rights? You had the right to campaign to remain in the EU - not sure how many of the active posters on this thread were so active when it came to campaigning pre referendum though. You had the right to vote and you had the right for the results of that vote to be implemented whichever way they went. We could go back even further to the previous general election and say you had the right to vote for the party who were not going to hold a referendum but shock horror they were not elected. You also have the right to campaign/demonstrate and express your opinions about the negotiations and the outcome of those negotiations when they are known. You don't however have the right to know why people made the choice they did as that is their business, its a bit like asking someone how much they earn or how often they have sex - private. If it makes you feel better to believe that 17,410,742 people voted just because they thought if was a good idea whilst the 16,141,241 people who voted to remain all studied the issues and had superior knowledge/were better informed then carry on. You talk about leave voters taunting but if you keep putting out bait don't be surprised when someone bites at it.


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> There nothing as blind as someone who can't see, that's all I'm going to say to the leaves I hope you'll be very happy.











Thank you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Look remainers you keep laying the bait and then moan when people respond. Mmmm this is becoming very tedious as you keep asking the same questions over and over again for 9+ months as well knowing what the reply is going to be. Then you get annoyed about the responses from leave supporters. What are you expecting? Us leavers changing our mind I guess? Sorry but that ain't going to happen.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> Well the UK can negotiate whenever and with whoever they like. There's no reason deals can't be in place and ready to be signed on the 29th March 2019.


Actually, no.

EU nations are not allowed to negotiate independent trade agreements.

We remain part of the EU until 29th March 2019.

Therefore, external trade negotiations can _begin_ on 29th March 2019


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> Actually, no.
> 
> EU nations are not allowed to negotiate independent trade agreements.
> 
> We remain part of the EU until 29th March 2019.
> 
> Therefore, external trade negotiations can _begin_ on 29th March 2019


We can negotiate but not sign. I mean negotiate as discuss as opposed to implement. Obviously EU nations are not permitted to negotiate (as in implement) their own deals.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> We can negotiate but not sign. I mean negotiate as discuss as opposed to implement. Obviously EU nations are not permitted to negotiate (as in implement) their own deals.


The UK has been discussing a potential trade deal with Australia, New Zealand and USA but can't do anything else until we Brexit. Australia and New Zealand have drafted potential trade deals ready for the UK (obviously the UK can't comment on these until we Brexit or ask for changes) and discussions are still taking place with these countries and Saudi Arabia hence why TM has flown out to Saudi Arabia today (Security is also being discussed as well). As long as nothing is signed until after we brexit then hunky dorie. The UK is allowed to discuss potential future trade deals but not enter any negotiations at this stage. It's called fishing out potential trading partners with various countries. The UK has not broken any rules doing this.


----------



## Honeys mum

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Who said at any time that you don't have rights? You had the right to campaign to remain in the EU - not sure how many of the active posters on this thread were so active when it came to campaigning pre referendum though. You had the right to vote and you had the right for the results of that vote to be implemented whichever way they went. We could go back even further to the previous general election and say you had the right to vote for the party who were not going to hold a referendum but shock horror they were not elected. You also have the right to campaign/demonstrate and express your opinions about the negotiations and the outcome of those negotiations when they are known. You don't however have the right to know why people made the choice they did as that is their business, its a bit like asking someone how much they earn or how often they have sex - private. If it makes you feel better to believe that 17,410,742 people voted just because they thought if was a good idea whilst the 16,141,241 people who voted to remain all studied the issues and had superior knowledge/were better informed then carry on. You talk about leave voters taunting but if you keep putting out bait don't be surprised when someone bites at it.


Very well put RPH, your spot on there. That's exactly what we have been trying to get through to them all along.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Who said at any time that you don't have rights? You had the right to campaign to remain in the EU - not sure how many of the active posters on this thread were so active when it came to campaigning pre referendum though. You had the right to vote and you had the right for the results of that vote to be implemented whichever way they went. We could go back even further to the previous general election and say you had the right to vote for the party who were not going to hold a referendum but shock horror they were not elected. You also have the right to campaign/demonstrate and express your opinions about the negotiations and the outcome of those negotiations when they are known. You don't however have the right to know why people made the choice they did as that is their business, its a bit like asking someone how much they earn or how often they have sex - private. If it makes you feel better to believe that 17,410,742 people voted just because they thought if was a good idea whilst the 16,141,241 people who voted to remain all studied the issues and had superior knowledge/were better informed then carry on. You talk about leave voters taunting but if you keep putting out bait don't be surprised when someone bites at it.


While I can see where you are coming from I don't have a problem asking people which way they voted. The thread title after all asks, "Are you in or out"? If you asked me I would be happy to tell you. I'm proud of the way I voted. We're all different of course.

Of course people reserve the right to keep this vote and reasons why they voted this way confidential.



stockwellcat said:


> Us leavers changing our mind I guess? Sorry but that ain't going to happen.


Likewise. Get over it.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Well the UK can negotiate whenever and with whoever they like. There's no reason deals can't be in place and ready to be signed on the 29th March 2019.


We don't leave until negotiations are completed with the EU. That means we are still bound by the EU rules including not negotiating deals independently. Now we could but what would that do to the UK reputation when we break a treaty while attempting to make new ones?



Honeys mum said:


> Very well put RPH, your spot on there. That's exactly what we have been trying to get through to them all along.


Non-binding referendum.. General election people voted for a government committed to staying in the single market... Not even able to give reasons to cause damage the UK or any advantages of leaving the EU.


----------



## Colliebarmy

stockwellcat said:


> As long as nothing is signed until after we brexit then hunky dorie. The UK is allowed to discuss potential future trade deals but not enter any negotiations at this stage. It's called fishing out potential trading partners with various countries.


in football its called tapping up


----------



## Colliebarmy

Europe must be worried, Spain might be able to veto Brexit, meanwhile Australia will just say "fair dinkum, lets sign over a barbie and a few tinnies"


----------



## Colliebarmy

Jesthar said:


> Actually, no.
> 
> EU nations are not allowed to negotiate independent trade agreements.
> 
> We remain part of the EU until 29th March 2019.
> 
> Therefore, external trade negotiations can _begin_ on 29th March 2019


what can the EU do....kick us out?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Now we could but what would that do to the UK reputation when we break a treaty while attempting to make new ones.


Nothing. Trade deals are signed and broken every day the UK's reputation wouldn't be damaged. The USA is leaving TTP that hasn't damaged there reputation has it? Well then your talking waffle again. You don't know and are making assumptions again.

As for the second half of your post. No comment as you keep bleeting on about this.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> We can negotiate but not sign. I mean negotiate as discuss as opposed to implement. Obviously EU nations are not permitted to negotiate (as in implement) their own deals.


Well, the EU means negotiate as in develop anything you could sign.

Discussion = talk about it in general terms, but not actually do or start to develop anything that could be signed

Negotiation = start to develop something you could eventually sign

As far as I understand it anyway. EU officials have been pretty robust in underlining that interpretation, and I believe TM has comitted to not opening trade negotiations with other countries anyway until after we finish negotiations with the EU, anyway, so either way it is extremely unlikely we will have any trade deals waiting to be signed by March 2019 other than an EU trade deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Colliebarmy said:


> what can the EU do....kick us out?


Saves the UK negotiating with the EU then  and the headache for the next two years


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Nothing. Trade deals are signed and broken every day the UK's reputation wouldn't be damaged. The USA is leaving TTP that hasn't damaged there reputation has it? Well then your talking waffle again. You don't know and are making assumptions again.


Really.. strange when international reputation of the States is dropping so quickly, although not entirely due to this. Also breaking a treaty and cancelling a treaty are two totally different things.

As for "continuing to bleet", unlike some, remainers don't tend to be sheep, although lemmings is more accurate when it comes to leaving. They actually want information justifying why before "uniting". Not our fault leavers are UNABLE, not unwilling to do so.



stockwellcat said:


> Saves the negotiations then  and the headache for the next two years


So once again, you push the WTO option which many leavers say is a mistake. Suppose you haven't found anything backing up your EEA claim yet have you?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> While I can see where you are coming from I don't have a problem asking people which way they voted. The thread title after all asks, "Are you in or out"? If you asked me I would be happy to tell you. I'm proud of the way I voted. We're all different of course.
> 
> Of course people reserve the right to keep this vote and reasons why they voted this way confidential.
> 
> .


If you read my post I wasn't objecting to people being asked whether they voted to leave or remain (see my quote below) that is the purpose of this thread but seriously 400 pages and nearly a year later to keep on demanding that individuals explain their reasons for voting (when most have a few hundred pages ago) how they did is just silly and not productive - how will people move forward if that is all they keep on doing over and over again?



rottiepointerhouse said:


> why people made the choice they did


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So once again, you push the WTO option which many leavers say is a mistake.


Once again on the post you quoted where do I mention WTO. Huh!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Suppose you haven't found anything backing up your EEA claim yet have you?


I haven't got around to this yet as I am busy believe it or not.

You love confrontation don't you.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> - how will people move forward if that is all they keep on doing over and over again?


I for one will not move on, nor be told to move on. I'm going to lose something important to me and will have to re-evaluate my entire future.

No one is telling Brexiteers to change their minds. I just wish some of them will stop gloating that they won and expect everyone to unite behind the dict, sorry May and the nightmare scenario of her form of Brexit.

The more some leavers attempt this, the stronger my opposition grows.

To be fair, it'll be the same vice versa of course.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> I for one will not move on, nor be told to move on. I'm going to lose something important to me and will have to re-evaluate my entire future.
> 
> No one is telling Brexiteers to change their minds. I just wish some of them will stop gloating that they won and expect everyone to unite behind the dict, sorry May and the nightmare scenario of her form of Brexit.
> 
> The more some leavers attempt this, the stronger my opposition grows.
> 
> To be fair, it'll be the same vice versa of course.


No one is telling you to change your mind either but the country can't stand still and twiddle its thumbs, it has to move on whether you choose to or not. I also wish some leavers would stop gloating, it doesn't make me feel comfortable. Somehow we do have to find a way to move forwards and work it all out. Just like when Labour took power with Tony Blair, plenty of people in the business world were distraught - my OH included - as for his Dad back in the days when he was in business he apparently took to his bed for 3 days after Labour were elected one time but life goes on and we had to make the best of it. You will have to find a way to do so too.


----------



## 1290423

it's not going to be easy, we know that, but don't they say that the best things are worth waiting for?
But the biggest problem I can see by far is that people are far to fast to jump to conclusions too easily, choose to listen to so called experts in their field, couple these issues with the hysteria created, often by the press, and normally blown out of all proportion, from something that has a very easy solution Into what we have now.
No one knows how the negotiations will go,
Theresa May May crumble but on the other hand so may other leaders, especially when some counties do realise that we are better friends and kept on side then enemies, which is what we could well end up it it does all go tits up.
I'm going to sit here and wait and see, not for just two years when we cut the cord, but for as long as it takes !


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Once again on the post you quoted where do I mention WTO. Huh!


Just in case you didn't realise, that is the default position. The one you are advocating. Then again, maybe you don't. You've changed as circumstances have as to what you have meant by "leave".



rottiepointerhouse said:


> No one is telling you to change your mind either but the country can't stand still and twiddle its thumbs, it has to move on whether you choose to or not.


Remainers aren't standing still and twiddling thumbs. They are campaigning to change the reckless decision to leave the EU based on the available evidence. Article 50 does not mean leaving is a foregone conclusion. There are still legal arguments we can use to stay in the EU. Once we do leave, rejoining means we would lose a lot of the advantages we have gained over the years.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> - as for his Dad back in the days when he was in business he apparently took to his bed for 3 days after Labour were elected one time but life goes on and we had to make the best of it. You will have to find a way to do so too.


Elections are different of course. A party can be voted out after five years while Brexit is permanent.

As for your last sentence, our next move will be north of the Scottish borders!


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> Thank you.


Too right. Evidence is being ignored by one side in favor of wishful thinking and fantasy. Glad you agree.


----------



## KittenKong

This is interesting:
https://www.socialeurope.eu/2017/04/brexit-bonanza-irish-smugglers-paramilitaries/


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Elections are different of course. A party can be voted out after five years while Brexit is permanent.
> 
> As for your last sentence, our next move will be north of the Scottish borders!


5 years is a long time when your business is suffering. It was just an example trying to lighten the mood but no worries.


----------



## ClaireLouise

Many other countries manage perfectly well with out being part of any union, the UK will be the same


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> 5 years is a long time when your business is suffering. It was just an example trying to lighten the mood but no worries.


Permanent is even longer.



KittenKong said:


> This is interesting:


http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/...in-gibraltar-veto-missed-opportunity--985743/

Must say I wish that Ireland did have a veto and I hope changes to the draft occur to allow them to do so. At least, unlike with Gibraltar, May is actually showing concern and the placing the border as a priority. Does that mean France should also get one though?


----------



## Goblin

ClaireLouise said:


> Many other countries manage perfectly well with out being part of any union, the UK will be the same


There's a reason many of these countries decide to join together into trading groups to allow them to compete on the international marketplace.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Look remainers you keep laying the bait and then moan when people respond. Mmmm this is becoming very tedious as you keep asking the same questions over and over again for 9+ months as well knowing what the reply is going to be. Then you get annoyed about the responses from leave supporters. What are you expecting? Us leavers changing our mind I guess? Sorry but that ain't going to happen.


Maybe they all went to the same school! You know the one, its a special school where they teach their kids how to vote!


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Maybe they all went to the same school! You know the one, its a special school where they teach their kids how to vote!


One where facts are used instead of prejudice perhaps. Where experts and education are deemed of importance.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Just in case you didn't realise, that is the default position. The one you are advocating. Then again, maybe you don't. You've changed as circumstances have as to what you have meant by "leave".
> 
> Remainers aren't standing still and twiddling thumbs. They are campaigning to change the reckless decision to leave the EU based on the available evidence. Article 50 does not mean leaving is a foregone conclusion. There are still legal arguments we can use to stay in the EU. Once we do leave, rejoining means we would lose a lot of the advantages we have gained over the years.


But don't you think leave supporters are losing steam and just accepting the inevitable that the UK are leaving the EU because people are believe it or not. The remaining hardcore remainers will become nothing but a bit of noise in the background and ignored like those that where in 1973 until 2016 that voted against joining the EC.

Regarding future court cases the High Court has to accept them first and little to your knowledge living in Germany that the High Court have started rejecting some court cases.

We aren't even negotiating yet only a draft bill has been produced by the EU. Member states can change there stance and some are already and the EU may back down. Just today they were asking for the fees to be paid to have an amicable withdrawal with no problems so the EU's stance changes daily to. The UK have indicated that they may ask Germany to repay the remainder of it's war debt from the second world war that it owes the UK which is estimated at £14 billion these payments where suspended in the 1950's or 1960's.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> One where facts are used instead of prejudice perhaps. Where experts and education are deemed of importance.


Please explain (and don't use big words I may not understand them) how exactly you can come to the conclusion that I am , as you put it 'prejudice' based purely on my voting choice? By suggesting such fodder you are also suggesting that not only I but over seventeen million other people who voted the same are prejudice. Now something here just doesn't quite add up right to me somehow, so maybe you should go back to that fancy school, which taught you those amazing assumption skills and ask them to teach you the basics, like mathematics!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

:Hilarious:Hilarious There you go - the reason why people don't discuss their reason for voting to leave - they will be called prejudiced and uneducated. We are all thick in other words - like I've said all along intellectual snobbery.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Maybe they all went to the same school! You know the one, its a special school where they teach their kids how to vote!


My parents and grandparents where too poor to go to the school you mentioned above :Hilarious:Hilarious and I left school to thick by remainers standards even though I have degrees, diplomas and a BA (Bachelor of Arts) behind my name, but still unintelligent by remainers standards because I voted leave.:Hilarious:Hilarious Oh well at least I know I am not the only one who has been insulted being called names because of a vote in a referendum.


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious There you go - the reason why people don't discuss their reason for voting to leave - they will be called prejudiced and uneducated. We are all thick in other words - like I've said all along intellectual snobbery.


On the other hand I cant understand why the EU didn't chuck us out prior to referendum anyway saving us heaps of time and money, seeing how over seventeen million of us are prejudice!
But you know what I really really think, I think there are certain people on here that just cannot accept and will never accept whatever reason we give them, hence the to need to label us as they do, now there is a saying that could be applied here, cant recall it for the life of me,


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> My parents and grandparents where too poor to go to the school you mentioned above :Hilarious:Hilarious and I left school to thick by remainers standards even though I have degrees, diplomas and a BA (Bachelor of Arts) behind my name, but still unintelligent by remainers standards because I voted leave.:Hilarious:Hilarious Oh well at least I know I am not the only one who has been insulted being called names because of a vote in a referendum.


@stockwellcat ...I am impressed..
You can replace Davies or Rudd or BJ any time you want. If you fancy a bit of a challenge: Replace Corbyn.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> @stockwellcat ...I am impressed..
> You can replace Davies or Rudd or BJ any time you want. If you fancy a bit of a challenge: Replace Corbyn.


Nah. Corbyn can stay where he is.

Don't want any politicians job as they can't do right from wrong


----------



## Guest

I read the last 5 pages of this thread and looks like the rosy images Brexiteers advertised, the messages are now all about surviving Brexit, not about the greatness all Brits will get once out. Once the smooth operators like Farage and Boris left the ship, you are left with the boring facts, which have started to look gloomier by the day. E.g. nobody mentions NHS´s extra funding anymore, only the fear that EU nurses and doctors might leave.

Funny how many keep saying nations will do business with you. Naturally everyone will have trade deals with UK, the question is that what are the terms of those deals? The same as what we have with the Chinse or US e.g. as part of the WTO? Much tougher, much more byrocracy and costs. Little businesses especially will suffer.

Most nations in EU feel genuily that you got conned by UKIP and selfish politicians (Cameron) and try to deal with you as fairly as possible. No one is talking about revenge, no one saying anything like what is being said on PF at the moment. We only say that Brits cannot have all the benefits of the EU without paying the full prise. And this time it will be the full prise, not like before, when your deal with EU was better than what we e.g. have in Finland.

So the questions I´d be asking would be what you are willing to pay to get the same deals? Less consumer rights (less quality, poor guarantees),less animal or environmental rights, less tax or or less profit for the British companies? I´d bet it´s going to be less tax for the British. Now, who will lose when you get just a little bit less tax than what you used to? Is it the corporations? Stockholders? Or NHS, school system and all on benefits? What do you think?

But that will be in small print, expressed in a way that only lawyers will understand. I´m sure you´ve seen that type of text, which aims at making sure very few people will read them and even fewer understand what they mean.

Now who of you will have the stamina and skills to follow through every single trade deal you make to ensure that politicians will not sell you out? On this thread alone those, who post facts and have maintained the once famous critical British approach to things are being laughed at, told that they should just wait and see? Really? Do you really think big Corporations are "just waiting". Wake up! The only thing what you have and can use, is a united nation with a critical, outspoken mind, who is not going to give up and fall for the first explanation, when promises are broken.

You really would have needed strong trade unions, but looks like you have none left. But at least support those, who try to stick up for the ordinary people.


----------



## samuelsmiles




----------



## KittenKong

ClaireLouise said:


> Many other countries manage perfectly well with out being part of any union, the UK will be the same


That's what people keep trying to say but I don't agree. You should ask why other countries in Europe were keen to join the EU, especially those in the former iron curtain.

Countries like Norway and Switzerland seem to do OK with their EEA or similar links to the EU.

May's hard Brexit will leave the UK and Gibraltar of course completely cut off from the rest of Europe,effectively leaving Europe altogether except geographically.

And of course with priory given to "controlling immigration" will also apply to emigration.

I hope a future government will consider the EEA/Norway method.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> That's what people keep trying to say but I don't agree. You should ask why other countries in Europe were keen to join the EU, especially those in the former iron curtain.
> 
> Countries like Norway and Switzerland seem to do OK with their EEA or similar links to the EU.
> 
> May's hard Brexit will leave the UK and Gibraltar of course completely cut off from the rest of Europe,effectively leaving Europe altogether except geographically.
> 
> And of course with priory given to "controlling immigration" will also apply to emigration.
> 
> I hope a future government will consider the EEA/Norway method.


Oh...but in manifesto Tories promised the single market!!!

( between you and me many still have no idea where leaving single market puts us, what are the consequences of that...).

EU with Britain in it to balance Germany and France is totally different to EU without Britain.

This is why many EU countries regret it so much.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

MrsZee said:


> I read the last 5 pages of this thread and looks like the rosy images Brexiteers advertised, the messages are now all about surviving Brexit, not about the greatness all Brits will get once out. Once the smooth operators like Farage and Boris left the ship, you are left with the boring facts, which have started to look gloomier by the day. E.g. nobody mentions NHS´s extra funding anymore, only the fear that EU nurses and doctors might leave.
> 
> Funny how many keep saying nations will do business with you. Naturally everyone will have trade deals with UK, the question is that what are the terms of those deals? The same as what we have with the Chinse or US e.g. as part of the WTO? Much tougher, much more byrocracy and costs. Little businesses especially will suffer.
> 
> Most nations in EU feel genuily that you got conned by UKIP and selfish politicians (Cameron) and try to deal with you as fairly as possible. No one is talking about revenge, no one saying anything like what is being said on PF at the moment. We only say that Brits cannot have all the benefits of the EU without paying the full prise. And this time it will be the full prise, not like before, when your deal with EU was better than what we e.g. have in Finland.
> 
> So the questions I´d be asking would be what you are willing to pay to get the same deals? Less consumer rights (less quality, poor guarantees),less animal or environmental rights, less tax or or less profit for the British companies? I´d bet it´s going to be less tax for the British. Now, who will lose when you get just a little bit less tax than what you used to? Is it the corporations? Stockholders? Or NHS, school system and all on benefits? What do you think?
> 
> But that will be in small print, expressed in a way that only lawyers will understand. I´m sure you´ve seen that type of text, which aims at making sure very few people will read them and even fewer understand what they mean.
> 
> Now who of you will have the stamina and skills to follow through every single trade deal you make to ensure that politicians will not sell you out? On this thread alone those, who post facts and have maintained the once famous critical British approach to things are being laughed at, told that they should just wait and see? Really? Do you really think big Corporations are "just waiting". Wake up! The only thing what you have and can use, is a united nation with a critical, outspoken mind, who is not going to give up and fall for the first explanation, when promises are broken.
> 
> You really would have needed strong trade unions, but looks like you have none left. But at least support those, who try to stick up for the ordinary people.


Who was conned by UKIP? I've never listened to them in my life and Cameron was fighting to remain not leave. Thankfully we are not all so pessimistic and some of us deal with businesses in our daily lives who are more than happy with the result. Guess is just depends on which circles you move in.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> But don't you think leave supporters are losing steam and just accepting the inevitable that the UK are leaving the EU because people are believe it or not. The remaining hardcore remainers will become nothing but a bit of noise in the background and ignored like those that where in 1973 until 2016 that voted against joining the EC.


Who's to say it will not. Still look what happened last year. Then again, we haven't left yet have we. Independent polls show many people who voted leave have reconsidered. Leave is split in terms of what terms we are leaving with. etc etc.



> The UK have indicated that they may ask Germany to repay the remainder of it's war debt from the second world war that it owes the UK which is estimated at £14 billion these payments where suspended in the 1950's or 1960's.


Now there a shock. Comes up whenever the UK wants to divert attention to Germany and WWII. Nothing to do with the EU of course. Then again a payment made on 3 October 2010 is considered to be the last payment by Germany on all known debts resulting from both world wars. Only able to blame Germany for WWII for so long and that time is past.


----------



## Goblin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious There you go - the reason why people don't discuss their reason for voting to leave - they will be called prejudiced and uneducated. We are all thick in other words - like I've said all along intellectual snobbery.


Wonder who mentioned schooling first. Never mind I'll ignore that. Back to that why people will not explain reasoning. You will not explain reasoning because it will not stand up to facts. Leavers are unable to show how the UK will be better off. Oh we'll survive but why damage the UK in the first place? You've called for unity yet are unable to explain why other than an opinion poll.

Why is it leavers don't question or discuss the facts listed by remainers showing how they are wrong I wonder? Why is it that they simply dismiss evidence shown?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> This is why many EU countries regret it so much.


I'm sure when people realise what they've given up and discover exactly what Brexit means, quite a few leave voters will regret voting that way too.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Who's to say it will not. Still look what happened last year. Then again, we haven't left yet have we. Independent polls show many people who voted leave have reconsidered. Leave is split in terms of what terms we are leaving with. etc etc.
> 
> Now there a shock. Comes up whenever the UK wants to divert attention to Germany and WWII. Nothing to do with the EU of course. Then again a payment made on 3 October 2010 is considered to be the last payment by Germany on all known debts resulting from both world wars. Only able to blame Germany for WWII for so long and that time is past.


:Yawn
:Yawn
:Yawn
:Yawn
I am getting fed up with the repetitiveness of remainers skipping around in circles. Time to do something in real life instead of entertaining your war of words in virtual reality (the internet).








Enjoy yourselves making yourselves dizzy.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> :Yawn
> :Yawn
> :Yawn
> :Yawn
> I am getting fed up with the repetitiveness of remainers skipping around in circles. Time to do something in real life instead of entertaining your war of words in virtual reality (the internet).
> View attachment 305303
> 
> Enjoy yourselves making yourselves dizzy.


Another one gone , another bites the dust...

Simple case of arguments supply on the low....


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh...but in manifesto Tories promised the single market!!!
> EU with Britain in it to balance Germany and France is totally different to EU without Britain.
> This is why many EU countries regret it so much.


True, especially Nordic countries joined often forces with Brits...



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Who was conned by UKIP? I've never listened to them in my life and Cameron was fighting to remain not leave. Thankfully we are not all so pessimistic and some of us deal with businesses in our daily lives who are more than happy with the result. Guess is just depends on which circles you move in.


II think all were conned By UKIP, as they were the most active advocates of leaving, that is why some wanted to thank Farage personally for the result. (That is easy to understand, our populist party too made huge promises too, got lots of support from poor people, joined the government, and failed to deliver any, and as a consequence now have lost most of it´s voters. Thankfully only two more years to go and we can have a new govermnent).

Cameron was the one,who promised a vote about EU in order to get elected and failed Britain by doing that. Being critical is not being pessimistic, being pessimistic is to give up. I agree with you about the circles I move in, I don´t move in with the rich, who certaily will benefit.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> :Yawn
> :Yawn
> :Yawn
> :Yawn
> I am getting fed up with the repetitiveness of remainers skipping around in circles. Time to do something in real life instead of entertaining your war of words in virtual reality (the internet).


Again...


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> Would you like to tell us what your reasons leave are.


Definately not, but here are some .(But not mine)

20 reasons you should vote to leave the European Union 

7 REASONS WHY WE SHOULD LEAVE THE EU - Campaign for an Independent BritainCampaign for an Independent Britain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/20-reasons-you-should-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> I am getting fed up with the repetitiveness
> View attachment 305303


I'm not surprised.

That twice you've posted the exact same gif.:Facepalm



stockwellcat said:


> Crying out loud.
> View attachment 305247


----------



## rona

MrsZee said:


> Cameron was the one,who promised a vote about EU in order to get elected


Why if he thought he would win an election on that promise would he or anyone else think that the stay voters would care because him and them must have been so cock sure of winning, The only way that would work is if the people who voted him in wanted to leave surely.............



MrsZee said:


> I don´t move in with the rich, who certaily will benefit.


I certainly don't move in rich circles unless you count one of my clients who's pretty loaded.
Out for me however, even though I know my old age may suffer for it, so that the people of this land will benefit in the future.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Why if he thought he would win an election on that promise would he or anyone else think that the stay voters would care because him and them must have been so cock sure of winning, The only way that would work is if the people who voted him in wanted to leave surely.............
> 
> I certainly don't move in rich circles unless you count one of my clients who's pretty loaded.
> Out for me however, even though I know my old age may suffer for it, so that the people of this land will benefit in the future.


Then you have a crystal ball. For it does not look like that in trade wars and political games we can do so great.
So far EU/ Spain 1: 0 UK

So Gibraltar, Falklands, Scotland, Northern Ireland might go ..
But Welsh farmers will stay ...waiting for compensation.

Politicians are very much the same donors pleasers / career seekers ( with few exceptions) EVERYWHERE!!!

Laws and regulations must match.
Whether nurses or veg pickers, whether they come from Poland or India they still need housing, schools etc?
What makes you think leaving EU to Germany/ France and trying to overlook geography will be beneficial in long run?

For many years France blocked Britain from joining the club and it was paramount to be in and have influence which is now renounced.
Business is moving away.

Many EU countries look at Brexit with regret, because it really changes EU , not just because of money, but important voice is lost.

Economy is the strength and it is not looking good without reasonable access to single market.


----------



## 1290423

Well seeing as I don't so it appears have the advanced level of intelligence as a particular group of voters, verified due to my voting preferences so some have told me. (Dont know if there is any scientific evidence to support that fact I am still searching)
Could someone therefore, someone who is very clever and preferably from that elite school that it appears us brexiters were excluded from please tell me why the pound has reached a monthly high since brexit and is tipped to rise even further?
Or did my poor schooling affect my reading skills too!


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> please tell me why the pound has reached a monthly high since brexit and is tipped to rise even further?


Please could you tell me what the exchange rate was before the result of the referendum for comparison? Wasn't it the lowest since 1985.

There's the fact Sterling has been strengthening versus the Euro after a conciliatory tone was struck in missives between EU-UK.

You also have the feeling by "experts" that 'hard' Brexit is unlikely. After all when "hard brexit" is pushed historically sterling falls. Remind me again what you voted for DT?


----------



## 1290423

Approx 1.24 but up to 1.30 thats from the top off my head, I didn,t google, so still not back where it was but seems, for now as though the downward spiral has levelled. 
As for the sterling dollar, no where near we were ten or fifteen years back, I just happen to have here several hundred dollars and a quantity of travellers cheques I purchased at around one dollar eighty per £ sterling sat around waiting for the time to be right.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Please could you tell me what the exchange rate was before the result of the referendum for comparison? Wasn't it the lowest since 1985.
> 
> There's the fact Sterling has been strengthening versus the Euro after a conciliatory tone was struck in missives between EU-UK.
> 
> You also have the feeling by "experts" that 'hard' Brexit is unlikely. After all when "hard brexit" is pushed historically sterling falls. Remind me again what you voted for DT?


Noted yet again you edited your post after my reply!
Shame I didn't quote you , in fact you haven't just altered it, you have practically re written it!
What's up, didn't you like my reply?


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Noted yet again you edited your post after my reply!
> Shame I didn't quote you


Wouldn't have minded you quoting since all I did was add more information whilst you were adding your reply. Completely rewritten is an accusation which doesn't apply. All the original had was the initial question. 10% loss of sterling on referendum result, dropped further since. Minor recovery. Not something to push really is it. Edit means you had something to use to deflect from answering the question though I guess.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Well seeing as I don't so it appears have the advanced level of intelligence as a particular group of voters, verified due to my voting preferences so some have told me. (Dont know if there is any scientific evidence to support that fact I am still searching)
> Could someone therefore, someone who is very clever and preferably from that elite school that it appears us brexiters were excluded from please tell me why the pound has reached a monthly high since brexit and is tipped to rise even further?
> Or did my poor schooling affect my reading skills too!


Wrong. It is going down....


----------



## Goblin

Of course you can look at the overall picture.. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/p...ns-article-50-letter-triggering-a3501671.html which shows how the stronger the separation with the EU seems, the weaker the pound gets.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Wouldn't have minded you quoting since all I did was add more information whilst you were adding your reply. Completely rewritten is an accusation which doesn't apply. All the original had was the initial question. 10% loss of sterling on referendum result, dropped further since. Minor recovery. Not something to push really is it. Edit means you had something to use to deflect from answering the question though I guess.


There you go again with you prize choice of words, now I have accused you!
You first reply consisted of just one paragraph, the first one, which I responded too!
Your amended post consisted of three paragraphs who put a completely different angle on your question , and consequently my subsequent response.

I will give you one point there and take it on the chin, you didn't alter the,first paragraph ,but think there are those that would agree the three paragraphs together altered the complexity of the question!


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Wrong. It is going down....
> View attachment 305342


Thank you cheeky, guess well have to wait and see tomorrow x


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> I will give you one point there and take it on the chin, you didn't alter the,first paragraph ,but think there are those that would agree the three paragraphs together altered the complexity of the question!


Question was simply the first paragraph not changed by the others. Exchange rate after leaving is the exchange rate after leaving.

Back to topic though: Rob Dobson, IHS Markit senior economist quoted in the FT stating


> With growth losing further momentum in March, that weaker trend is likely to continue into the second quarter. The latest survey also clearly shows that high costs and weak wage growth are sapping the strength of consumers, with rates of expansion in output and new orders for these products slowing further.


So the average person is losing out.


----------



## 1290423

DT said:


> Thank you cheeky, guess well have to wait and see tomorrow x


 Closed -0.69. So will have to see tomorrow
Off to sleep now as other half is working tomorrow and he's like a bear with a sore head if he misses any shuteye x
Keeps say tomorrow is his last day,


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Thank you cheeky, guess well have to wait and see tomorrow x


Night night...
 







Moon rising over the Bay...


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> View attachment 305249
> 
> Thank you.


That's just what I'd expect from you, I make a spelling mistake and you have to be sarcastic.

Well says it all doesn't.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39485083


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-fox-trades-deals-europe-beware-a7664741.html


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> .
> Out for me however, even though I know my old age may suffer for it, so that the people of this land will benefit in the future.


But the people who are suffering now under this cruel governments policies, they don't matter, right?

(just a few recent headlines)
*
Tories' shakeup of welfare payments this week to push 250,0000 children into poverty* https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-a-quarter-of-a-million-children-into-poverty

_Also coming this week is a freeze to working age benefit levels at a time when, according to the __Resolution Foundation__, 
the wealthiest will benefit from over £2bn a year in income tax cuts_.

*
Tories may cause 'irreparable damage' to homeless services, charity warns*
*Funding for homeless services has been cut by 45% since 2010/11 - and could be reduced even further.*

http://www.welfareweekly.com/tories-may-cause-irreparable-damage-to-homeless-services-charity-warns/

*Tories showcase their 'stronger, fairer, better Britain' by declaring war on the disabled
*
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/bedroom-tax-tories-fairer-better-10130413


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Definately not, but here are some .(But not mine)
> 
> 20 reasons you should vote to leave the European Union
> 
> 7 REASONS WHY WE SHOULD LEAVE THE EU - Campaign for an Independent BritainCampaign for an Independent Britain


Yes exactly people have been duped by a bunch of duplicitous liars.


----------



## KittenKong

Looking at the BBC site on today's newspaper headlines I thought I'd been transported back to 1982.

Just six days into triggering Article 50 this is The Sun's front page....

The paper is also widely sold in Spain......


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Looking at the BBC site on today's newspaper headlines


Translation: "While I was reading my favourite newspaper, the Sun, cover to cover...."


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> That's just what I'd expect from you, I make a spelling mistake and you have to be sarcastic.
> 
> Well says it all doesn't.


You stun me with your repartee.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> You stun me with your repartee.


Hands off Happy Paws !!!
Or I will throw hummus over you!!!


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Hands off Happy Paws !!!
> Or I will throw hummus over you!!!


Kinky.


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> Translation: "While I was reading my favourite newspaper, the Sun, cover to cover...."


Ha! Ha! Very funny!

If you were right I must be the only Sun reader who sees it for what it really is!


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Looking at the BBC site on today's newspaper headlines I thought I'd been transported back to 1982.
> 
> Just six days into triggering Article 50 this is The Sun's front page....
> 
> The paper is also widely sold in Spain......
> View attachment 305373


Still useful.

We need all support we can get.
Spain now sounds very emollient...scared Brits will spend summer in Butlins instead?
But lets not forget May dropped us in it...though she has been warned.

Sadly having nine months to prepare Article 50, she could not get it right.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Kinky.


Pm me...this not this thread.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Yes exactly people have been duped by a bunch of duplicitous liars.


Here we go again, do you ever give up noush. That was just an answer to a question made by H.P.
Once again I have not been duped by anyone. I will say this one more time, I made up my own mind as to why I voted to Leave, no one or anything influanced me in any way.

We all know there was lies told on both sides, D.C. was the worst of the lot. The remain side also used scare tactics as well.
Here are just a few examples, can't be bothered to find anymore, cous according to you these will all be lies as well.

David Cameron has 'lied profoundly' during EU campaign, claims Tory MP Nadine Dorries | Metro News
Leave Lies? Remainers Need To Look In The Mirror | The Huffington Post
Remain camp's four big EU lies, Brexit WON'T spark trade war say Germans | Daily Mail Online
Remain campaign peddles outright lies at our expense | Express Comment | Comment | Express.co.uk


----------



## Odin_cat

cheekyscrip said:


> Still useful.
> 
> We need all support we can get.
> Spain now sounds very emollient...scared Brits will spend summer in Butlins instead?
> But lets not forget May dropped us in it...though she has been warned.
> 
> Sadly having nine months to prepare Article 50, she could not get it right.


I agree with you about most things...but I don't see how The Sun's ill advised campaign of hate is useful. It just diverts public attention. If the UK were to boycott Spanish products Rajoy et al would be laughing, it gives them ammunition, they couldn't care less if people lose their jobs.

But I guess it's a more tempting headline ( despite the spelling mistake) to ' May sells more weapons to a country that thinks women are dirt and still crucifies people'...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Odin_cat said:


> I agree with you about most things...but I don't see how The Sun's ill advised campaign of hate is useful. It just diverts public attention. If the UK were to boycott Spanish products Rajoy et al would be laughing, it gives them ammunition, they couldn't care less if people lose their jobs.
> 
> But I guess it's a more tempting headline ( despite the spelling mistake) to ' May sells more weapons to a country that thinks women are dirt and still crucifies people'...


Thanks to " The Sun" many of it's readers learnt about Gibraltar.

Honestly our hope is more in British public than in British government.

Poland strongly condemned EU/ Spain of depriving Gibraltar of their voice.

Spanish media are mostly critical of May.








Rightly.

Spain ceded Gibraltar in 1713, getting Bourbon on their throne.
Plus other swaps of colonies etc.
No claim.
Imagine if whole Europe started claiming lands they once owned few centuries ago?
Spain can give their colonies in Africa back to Morocco for the start.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Here we go again, do you ever give up noush. That was just an answer to a question made by H.P.
> Once again I have not been duped by anyone. I will say this one more time, I made up my own mind as to why I voted to Leave, no one or anything influanced me in any way.
> 
> We all know there was lies told on both sides, D.C. was the worst of the lot. The remain side also used scare tactics as well.
> Here are just a few examples, can't be bothered to find anymore, cous according to you these will all be lies as well.
> 
> David Cameron has 'lied profoundly' during EU campaign, claims Tory MP Nadine Dorries | Metro News
> Leave Lies? Remainers Need To Look In The Mirror | The Huffington Post
> Remain camp's four big EU lies, Brexit WON'T spark trade war say Germans | Daily Mail Online
> Remain campaign peddles outright lies at our expense | Express Comment | Comment | Express.co.uk


You posted those links as some of the reasons people voted leave - I pointed out they had fallen for a load of garbage.

The main reasons given for voting remain are all coming to pass HM & any one of them was a coherent reason to vote remain. Still haven't heard a single coherent reason to leave though  >>

The remain campaign predicted we would be poorer.(except the very wealthy)

The remain campaign predicted there would be a right wing power grab (the great repeal bill).

The remain campaign predicted 'red tape protecting our environment, food safety, workers rights would be slashed.

The remain campaign predicted hate crime would rise & the far right would be emboldened.

The remain campaign predicted our NHS would collapse faster.

The remain campaign predicted the future of Gibraltar would be put in jeopardy...


----------



## Honeys mum

As you say yourself noush, theyre all predictions, says it all really.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> As you say yourself noush, theyre all redications, says it all .


And look how accurate they were  Brexit is proof that experts are better placed to evaluate then we are.

And experts are far more trustworthy than a bunch of corrupt politicians & billionaire businessmen & non dom media barons


----------



## noushka05

Says it all ...

Hedge fund fatcats who backed the leave campaign are set to gain £250m a year after Brexit:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-hedge-fund-managers-backing-out-campaign-to-set-make-millions-from-brexit-a6708496.html…


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> As you say yourself noush, theyre all predictions, says it all really.


Gibraltar is in danger.

Unless Brits rally behind the Rock and actually boycott Spanish holidays as an answer to this disgusting attempt on our sovereignty and freedom.

Yes, Rajoy would care. He has very unsteady minority government and socialists already criticised his attempt to grab Gibraltar at the expense of quarrel with Britain.

Support of British people, not May or BJ who cannot be trusted, this what we really need.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Still useful.
> 
> We need all support we can get.
> Spain now sounds very emollient...scared Brits will spend summer in Butlins instead?
> But lets not forget May dropped us in it...though she has been warned.
> 
> Sadly having nine months to prepare Article 50, she could not get it right.


That would be playing in to the right wing media's hands if UK holiday makers boycotted Spain in favour of Butlins, who are apparently having their own problems with the future of their EU staffs' rights to live and work in the UK in doubt.

Perhaps people should abandon their holidays altogether, if they're still lucky enough to afford them after Brexit.

Headlines like this are designed to create division and hatred.

Giving May a very rare benefit of the doubt she laughed off suggestions of going to war with Spain over Gibraltar, who are unlikely to invade Gibraltar anyway though EU and NATO membership and vows to negotiate through the Brexit process for her classic catchphrase, a "Best possible deal".

Hopefully something good will come out of this appalling headline. The Sun gets boycotted throughout Spain!


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Gibraltar is in danger.
> 
> Unless Brits rally behind the Rock and actually boycott Spanish holidays as an answer to this disgusting attempt on our sovereignty and freedom.
> 
> Yes, Rajoy would care. He has very unsteady minority government and socialists already criticised his attempt to grab Gibraltar at the expense of quarrel with Britain.
> 
> Support of British people, not May or BJ who cannot be trusted, this what we really need.


This is what I find difficult to understand.

Gibraltar voted 96% to remain in the EU yet want to remain "British" despite losing EU citizenship.

Of course, as in Scotland it's ultimately up to the people of Gibraltar what they want.

I'm sorry but I have friends and family in Spain. I'm not going to stop going there because of what the press report.

This is due to the UK leaving the EU, not Spain, not the EU. My loyalties are with the EU.


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Gibraltar is in danger.


I didn't include Gibralter in my oringinal post cheekyscrip, sorry if it came over like that.It was was noush who included Gibraltar in her list.

You must be very worried about the future for you and your family.As have already said, I hope it works out for you, and you can feel safe again in the lovely place where you live.xx


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> after a conciliatory tone was struck in missives between EU-UK.


Such a good thing that the negotiations are being run by people who act like sensible adults isn't it?


----------



## Goblin

Consider this. The complaints about remain lying are based on predictions. Many of the complaints about leaving are also based on predicitions. However they are also levelled on lies used about EU and the powers of the UK within it at the time. Unelected bureaucracy anyone? The whole policy of leave was based on lying about facts which were known 100%.

"we were not influenced" but when people (who also state they weren't) do give reasons they are repetitions of the core lies.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Such a good thing that the negotiations are being run by people who act like sensible adults isn't it?


Shame it's not a sensible politician looking out for her country and what is best for it but looking at what she can gain in terms of political power running the UK side then isn't it.


----------



## Honeys mum

If you read my revious post Goblin, I did say there were lies on both sides.


----------



## noushka05

*Andrew Stroehlein*‏Verified account

Hate them. Hate them. Hate them. Hate them. Hate them. Hate them.
Hate them. Hate them.
Wait, why are you attacking them in the streets?

















JOIN THE DOTS, PAUL DACRE.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> David Cameron has 'lied profoundly' during EU campaign, claims Tory MP Nadine Dorries | Metro News
> Leave Lies? Remainers Need To Look In The Mirror | The Huffington Post
> Remain camp's four big EU lies, Brexit WON'T spark trade war say Germans | Daily Mail Online
> Remain campaign peddles outright lies at our expense | Express Comment | Comment | Express.co.uk


Oh those links are superb.. You can pull these those calling these "lies" apart. Turkey.. (joining EU despite Cameron saying nowhere near joining) They were nowhere near joining as they didn't fulfill many of the requirements (democracy, human rights etc) to do so. As the EU and Turkey were talking it means joining was imminent (never mind the veto where the UK could stop it regardless). Immigration.. UK government hasn't deported anyone which is proof they cannot. Other countries in the EU do as it's allowed by EU rules and supported by the European Court Justice.

These links are pushing the leave agenda by pushing yet more lies and misrepresentation.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Thanks to " The Sun" many of it's readers learnt about Gibraltar.


Sorry to say this but with all due respect you seem to be falling for their propaganda. They are very clever in persuading others to their way of thinking, which is why most of their readers regard what they print as gospel.

If the Falklands has anything to go by the paper activity promoted the war. Headlines like this are a provocation that could lead countries to war.

Needless to say such wars are described as, "Fighting for your country". In this case it would be, "Fighting for your Brexit".....

All because of a stupid comment from an obsolete Tory on Sunday.

They'll probably remind Germany they won the war next....

I appreciate it's a worrying time for you and it wasn't what you voted for. You did warn of this too.

Only six days in to Brexit. The negotiations haven't even started yet!

EDIT- anyone else notice the lack of mention of the blast in St Petersburg yesterday in that vile paper's front page?


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> Sorry to say this but with all due respect you seem to be falling for their propaganda. They are very clever in persuading others to their way of thinking, which is why most of their readers regard what they print as gospel.


I read that more as a sarcastic comment on the general gegraphical grasp if Sun readers - you know, much like we joke a fair percentage of Americans are unaware human life exists outside their shores


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Looking at the BBC site on today's newspaper headlines I thought I'd been transported back to 1982.
> 
> Just six days into triggering Article 50 this is The Sun's front page....
> 
> The paper is also widely sold in Spain......
> View attachment 305373


And you seriously think the Spanish people believe The Sun represents the views of the majority of us


----------



## Colliebarmy

rottiepointerhouse said:


> And you seriously think the Spanish people believe The Sun represents the views of the majority of us


Given it has the highest circulation figures maybe yes it does


----------



## Satori

This would be good news if it is correct (today's Express)....

"
The plan for a fast-track trade deal between Theresa May's Government and President Donald Trump's White House administration is put forward in a report published tomorrow by the Euro-sceptic pressure group Leave Means Leave.

David Campbell Bannerman, a Tory MEP and author of the report, rubbished claims that a new US-UK trade deal could take years to negotiate.

"Such a negotiation for an immediate short-term deal would be envisioned to last no more than 180 days," Mr Campbell Bannerman said. He added: "Brexit brings many global opportunities for the United Kingdom but the reaffirmation and deepening of the relationship between Britain and America through a new post-Brexit US-UK bilateral trade deal has to rate as the most natural, benign and highest priority of them all.

"We can take full advantage of being put right to the front of the US queue now for trade deals under the new President Trump Administration."

And the blueprint, entitled "Right to the Front of the Queue", has already won the backing of President Trump's designated new ambassador to the EU.

Ted Malloch, a close ally of the president, said: "Our mutual and abiding interests, common worldview, congruence of sympathies, and the undeniably unique heritage of the Anglo-American tradition of liberty should be our true future together.

"With a shared Whig history, the King James Bible, the Anglican Church, long historical memory - all of these things make up a valuable Anglo-Atlanticist patrimony.

"Britain and America belong together not in Europe. Taking up the cause of Locke and casting aside the philosophy of the European Rousseau, the Brits have with America cemented their place on the side of liberty.

"The Anglo-Saxon rule of law and democratic spirit has triumphed over statism and the centralization of power.

"The future will much need Anglo-American leadership - more than ever before. Perhaps, herein lie the true sinews of lasting peace.

"Nothing will build those bonds better than a special and deep Free Trade Agreement which can bind the two nations for generations to come."

Under Mr Campbell Bannerman's plan, a streamlined temporary trade deal would be rushed through before a more complex, long-term arrangement was thrashed out.

He argued that the initial deal would "lower or remove all duties, taxes or other import fees for goods between the US and the UK".
"


----------



## stuaz

rottiepointerhouse said:


> And you seriously think the Spanish people believe The Sun represents the views of the majority of us


You forget that The Sun is the most influential newspaper in the world! Even those that don't read it, are under its influence.....


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> This would be good news if it is correct (today's Express)....


No comment..



> Euro-sceptic pressure group Leave Means Leave.


Great source



> David Campbell Bannerman, a Tory MEP and author of the report, rubbished claims that a new US-UK trade deal could take years to negotiate
> ...
> Under Mr Campbell Bannerman's plan, a streamlined temporary trade deal would be rushed through before a more complex, long-term arrangement was thrashed out.


So slap a band aid on it (ignoring the complex essential issues protecting the UK) until a US-UK trade deal could be worked out, potentially taking years.. This from a country who president was elected on a mandate of America First.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Colliebarmy said:


> Given it has the highest circulation figures maybe yes it does


It might have the highest circulation figures of actual newspapers bought (as opposed to being read online) but along with all other newspapers those figures have fallen dramatically over recent years and are now under 2 million copies per day. Under 2 million (approx 1.7 million) does not represent the views of the "majority" of people in this country.


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Birthday, Nigel Farage!























He's campaigned for Brexit for 20 years and still won't take a day off!


----------



## suewhite

:Cigar:Singing:Smug


----------



## Dr Pepper

rottiepointerhouse said:


> It might have the highest circulation figures of actual newspapers bought (as opposed to being read online) but along with all other newspapers those figures have fallen dramatically over recent years and are now under 2 million copies per day. Under 2 million (approx 1.7 million) does not represent the views of the "majority" of people in this country.


I've changed sides and I'm now a remainer as that absolutely proves that Brexit was voted for only by thick, racist Sun readers. Many experts have compiled facts and figures that show every copy of The Sun is read by ten people. So it's no coincidence that 1.7 million copies are sold and 17 million voted leave.

How did I miss that last June, I'm so ashamed and humiliated.


----------



## suewhite

I have never read the Sun nor am I a racist or thick.:Smug


----------



## Honeys mum

Never read the sun either, wouldn't even allow in our house.
Do some people actually read it then.?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Honeys mum said:


> Never read the sun either, wouldn't even allow in our house.
> Do some people actually read it then.?


Best ask @KittenKong - he seems to read it regularly.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/03/nick-clegg-lets-join-forces-and-beat-the-brexiteers


----------



## rona

suewhite said:


> I have never read the Sun nor am I a racist or thick


I don't read the sun or any other paper for that matter, I'm not racist but am regarded as one apparently for realising that we could not continue to take the amount of inward migration that this country has experienced over the last few years.

Am also classed a thick because I haven't been brainwashed by the biased education system, which seems to exist in this country.

I have lived my life my own way as much as the system will allow, never been in debt and make decisions and life choices based on my own expectations not those imposed by others. I'm very often hugely out of step with the main stream, but my mind is my own not channelled by others.
If that makes me thick, then so be it, I'm far happier than 99% of those I meet and know


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Happy Birthday, Nigel Farage!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's campaigned for Brexit for 20 years and still won't take a day off!


What like what he was actually paid for as an MEP. Things like attending meetings representing the interests of the UK...


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Oh those links are superb.. You can pull these those calling these "lies" apart. Turkey.. (joining EU despite Cameron saying nowhere near joining) They were nowhere near joining as they didn't fulfill many of the requirements (democracy, human rights etc) to do so. As the EU and Turkey were talking it means joining was imminent (never mind the veto where the UK could stop it regardless). Immigration.. UK government hasn't deported anyone which is proof they cannot. Other countries in the EU do as it's allowed by EU rules and supported by the European Court Justice.
> 
> These links are pushing the leave agenda by pushing yet more lies and misrepresentation.


You forgot! The press use unscrupulous methods to ply their comics, or as some believe reading material! Today's news tomorrow's fish n chip wrapping, well was once x


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> I don't read the sun or any other paper for that matter, I'm not racist but am regarded as one apparently for realising that we could not continue to take the amount of inward migration that this country has experienced over the last few years.
> 
> Am also classed a thick because I haven't been brainwashed by the biased education system, which seems to exist in this country.
> 
> I have lived my life my own way as much as the system will allow, never been in debt and make decisions and life choices based on my own expectations not those imposed by others. I'm very often hugely out of step with the main stream, but my mind is my own not channelled by others.
> If that makes me thick, then so be it, I'm far happier than 99% of those I meet and know


It was obviously the schooling, and maybe the sixth sense they used to install in us, not to rely on others.


----------



## 1290423

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Best ask @KittenKong - he seems to read it regularly.


Yeah, reckon they have it delivered.


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> Never read the sun either, wouldn't even allow in our house.
> Do some people actually read it then.?


Don't be silly! They look as the pictures x


----------



## Dr Pepper

suewhite said:


> I have never read the Sun nor am I a racist or thick.:Smug





Honeys mum said:


> Never read the sun either, wouldn't even allow in our house.
> Do some people actually read it then.?





rona said:


> I don't read the sun or any other paper for that matter, I'm not racist but am regarded as one apparently for realising that we could not continue to take the amount of inward migration that this country has experienced over the last few years.
> 
> Am also classed a thick because I haven't been brainwashed by the biased education system, which seems to exist in this country.
> 
> I have lived my life my own way as much as the system will allow, never been in debt and make decisions and life choices based on my own expectations not those imposed by others. I'm very often hugely out of step with the main stream, but my mind is my own not channelled by others.
> If that makes me thick, then so be it, I'm far happier than 99% of those I meet and know


But are you sure? You see now I'm a remainer I have this whole sixth sense thing going on where I know your thoughts and motivations better than you do yourself.

So you are wrong.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I don't read the sun or any other paper for that matter, I'm not racist but am regarded as one apparently for realising that we could not continue to take the amount of inward migration that this country has experienced over the last few years.
> 
> Am also classed a thick because I haven't been brainwashed by the biased education system, which seems to exist in this country.
> 
> I have lived my life my own way as much as the system will allow, never been in debt and make decisions and life choices based on my own expectations not those imposed by others. I'm very often hugely out of step with the main stream, but my mind is my own not channelled by others.
> If that makes me thick, then so be it, I'm far happier than 99% of those I meet and know


Its more to do with critical thinking than education. A lot of extremely intelligent people are still in complete denial when it comes to climate change for example. Despite irrefutable evidence that human activity is driving climate change they still refuse to accept it. I admit I'm thick! Maybe that's one of the reasons I put my faith in those who are better educated then I am. I would never dream of challenging renowned experts who are far better informed then me. Refuting experts because you think you know better is extremely reckless.










A little reminder - _You can have your own opinion but you cant have your own facts_ 

Being concerned about immigration doesn't make someone a racist but here's a little _fact_ about immigration you seem to keep overlooking 

Theresa May at the Home Office was responsible for immigration but decided to ignore EU rules - This inept person is now the PM. Worse still she's in charge of brexit.










An expert you validated in the past retweeted this today  

Chemicals giant Ineos 'exploited Brexit to pressure government to get rid of environmental protections'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-uk-eu-withdrawal-foi-documents-a7665136.html










*"Taking Our Country Back"??*


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> This is what I find difficult to understand.
> 
> Gibraltar voted 96% to remain in the EU yet want to remain "British" despite losing EU citizenship.
> 
> Of course, as in Scotland it's ultimately up to the people of Gibraltar what they want.
> 
> I'm sorry but I have friends and family in Spain. I'm not going to stop going there because of what the press report.
> 
> This is due to the UK leaving the EU, not Spain, not the EU. My loyalties are with the EU.


Not difficult at all.
Even if you decided to retire to Spain you may still feel British?
How you can change that?
Spain has no claim at all.
We have family across the frontier, my kids had Spanish grandma.

You understand that if something was ceded in 1713 in trade for other colonies and concessions so it is water under the bridge?

Most modern Spanish think exactly that.

Imagine if now Poland wants access to Black Sea( because they had), Germans want Gdansk, Prussia and Posen.
Sweden wants Finland...
Three centuries is enough!!!
This us what EU should have told Spain when they were to join.
Frontiers will stay as they are unless people want to join.

Spain holds Catalonia by force denying them referendum. Despite many demos and protests. Same with Basks.

Spain has very thin experience in democracy. First absolute monarchy then dictatorship of Franco.

So far they have corruption like in Banana Republic and deeply engrained mistrust of authorities.

I lived in Spain for three years.
Have lots of Spanish friends and family.

I know that local solutions are possible if interested parties want to.

@Goblin those local solutions should be discussed by Gibraltar and Campo de Gibraltar, not without us.

We get along very well, we all have see ties crossing the border, just if May and Rajoy left it to us and Tusk listened to us.

EUis trading deal. If we want to be in EU does not mean we want to be German. Or French. Or Spanish. Or Portugese.

I do not know how hard is it to understand?

Logic.
I am sure no one will stop anyone from going to Marbs.

Except the pound exchange rate.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Not difficult at all.
> Even if you decided to retire to Spain you may still feel British?
> How you can change that?
> Spain has no claim at all.
> We have family across the frontier, my kids had Spanish grandma.
> 
> You understand that if something was ceded in 1713 in trade for other colonies and concessions so it is water under the bridge?
> 
> Most modern Spanish think exactly that.
> 
> Imagine if now Poland wants access to Black Sea( because they had), Germans want Gdansk, Prussia and Posen.
> Sweden wants Finland...
> Three centuries is enough!!!
> This us what EU should have told Spain when they were to join.
> Frontiers will stay as they are unless people want to join.
> 
> Spain holds Catalonia by force denying them referendum. Despite many demos and protests. Same with Basks.
> 
> Spain has very thin experience in democracy. First absolute monarchy then dictatorship of Franco.
> 
> So far they have corruption like in Banana Republic and deeply engrained mistrust of authorities.
> 
> I lived in Spain for three years.
> Have lots of Spanish friends and family.
> 
> I know that local solutions are possible if interested parties want to.
> 
> @Goblin those local solutions should be discussed by Gibraltar and Campo de Gibraltar, not without us.
> 
> We get along very well, we all have see ties crossing the border, just if May and Rajoy left it to us and Tusk listened to us.
> 
> EUis trading deal. If we want to be in EU does not mean we want to be German. Or French. Or Spanish. Or Portugese.
> 
> I do not know how hard is it to understand?
> 
> Logic.
> I am sure no one will stop anyone from going to Marbs.
> 
> Except the pound exchange rate.


You, myself and many others were aware this would happen but many ignored it as, "Scaremongering" or they couldn't care less.

Having said that, I consider it unfair to blame the EU in any way as, when Spain joined the possibility of the UK leaving wasn't on the agenda.

Like, say if Poland or another former Iron Curtain left the EU to the mercy of Russia. The EU couldn't do anything to help the country who have left.

In the EU referendum only England and Wales voted to leave the EU but Scotland, NI and Gibraltar are all having to undergo a hard Brexit with the ending of free movement and the single market. May believes she unilaterally rules these countries so they don't have a say in her plans (England and Wales can get on with it - they voted for this).

Please don't think I'm telling you how to think but think twice before thinking The Sun is on your side.

Don't forget, had it not been for this paper Brexit may not have happened.
The paper, with the Mail, Express and others acted as huge adverts for the leave campaign.

When the Sun tells its readers to do something, most do it. Rather like Prime Ministers.

What they're appearing to do is cause conflict between the English and Spanish, not only government's but between the people too.

In the Falklands Argentinian football players were prevented from playing due to the hatred towards anything Argentinian.

Certainly, May speaks as if voters were all Sun readers.

How many had heard of the Falklands before the "crisis" which led to war?

Finally I'm English and currently live in England. I no longer call myself "British", I'm ashamed of that title.

I'm European first. May and Brexiteers cannot take that away from me however hard they try.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> And you seriously think the Spanish people believe The Sun represents the views of the majority of us


I'll have to ask the Spanish the next time I'm there. Seeing the paper is sold in just about every newsagent there, as in Cyprus, it must sell well amongst ex-pats.

Theresa May appears to believe The Sun represents the views of most people the way she bleats on.

The views of the majority of Sun readers are fed to them by the paper.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Please don't think I'm telling you how to think but think twice before thinking The Sun is on your side.
> 
> Don't forget, had it not been for this paper Brexit may not have happened.
> The paper, with the Mail, Express and others acted as huge adverts for the leave campaign.
> 
> When the Sun tells its readers to do something, most do it. Rather like Prime Ministers.....


Oh FFS you are weird.......................

Who on here reads the ruddy Sun except you?


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> I'll have to ask the Spanish the next time I'm there. Seeing the paper is sold in just about every newsagent there, as in Cyprus, it must sell well amongst ex-pats.
> 
> Theresa May appears to believe The Sun represents the views of most people the way she bleats on.
> 
> The views of the majority of Sun readers are fed to them by the paper.


Theresa's a bit preoccupied with Cadbury's at the moment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nd-saudi-arabia-vicars-daughter-a7665536.html

Cadbury's Cream Eggs;

How does Theresa eat hers?

Probably with a lot of help from the opposition.....

Who'd like to ram them down her phuqin' throat!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> Theresa's a bit preoccupied with Cadbury's at the moment.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nd-saudi-arabia-vicars-daughter-a7665536.html
> 
> Cadbury's Cream Eggs;
> 
> How does Theresa eat hers?
> 
> Probably with a lot of help from the opposition.....
> 
> Who'd like to ram them down her phuqin' throat!


If she comes here..


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Oh FFS you are weird.......................
> 
> Who on here reads the ruddy Sun except you?


Did I actually say or "accuse" anyone of being influenced by papers like "The Sun" here personally?

I'm taking about the population in general. Yes, I do look at it as I do the Mail from time to time. Always a copy of The Sun at work for example.

Most newsagents here, now tobacco advertising is banned have huge red and white SUN banners in their place.

Besides, I can hardly comment on a paper if I don't look at it from time to time!


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> If she comes here..


Will you be stocking up just in case Scrippy?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Oh FFS you are weird.......................
> 
> Who on here reads the ruddy Sun except you?


Perhaps I am. I do look at papers like The Sun and Mail from time to time but see them for what they are, aware many believe in what they write.

I'm also an advertisers' worst nightmare by seeing adverts on TV for what they are, total rubbish!

Yes, I might be different from others as if people were all like me advertisers wouldn't bother and commercial tv and radio would go bust!

But I seem to represent a very small minority.....


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> You, myself and many others were aware this would happen but many ignored it as, "Scaremongering" or they couldn't care less.
> 
> Having said that, I consider it unfair to blame the EU in any way as, when Spain joined the possibility of the UK leaving wasn't on the agenda.
> 
> Like, say if Poland or another former Iron Curtain left the EU to the mercy of Russia. The EU couldn't do anything to help the country who have left.
> 
> In the EU referendum only England and Wales voted to leave the EU but Scotland, NI and Gibraltar are all having to undergo a hard Brexit with the ending of free movement and the single market. May believes she unilaterally rules these countries so they don't have a say in her plans (England and Wales can get on with it - they voted for this).
> 
> Please don't think I'm telling you how to think but think twice before thinking The Sun is on your side.
> 
> Don't forget, had it not been for this paper Brexit may not have happened.
> The paper, with the Mail, Express and others acted as huge adverts for the leave campaign.
> 
> When the Sun tells its readers to do something, most do it. Rather like Prime Ministers.
> 
> What they're appearing to do is cause conflict between the English and Spanish, not only government's but between the people too.
> 
> In the Falklands Argentinian football players were prevented from playing due to the hatred towards anything Argentinian.
> 
> Certainly, May speaks as if voters were all Sun readers.
> 
> How many had heard of the Falklands before the "crisis" which led to war?
> 
> Finally I'm English and currently live in England. I no longer call myself "British", I'm ashamed of that title.
> 
> I'm European first. May and Brexiteers cannot take that away from me however hard they try.


I have never been to Falklands but here famous Spanish footballer just bought a footie club.
On Sunday my kiddie goes to play friendly basketball match against teams across the frontier.

Imagine 12k workers, most Spanish crossing to work here every day ...

We are pretty united in what we think about politicians on both sides...

Incidents happen because there are idiotic haters, but if it was left to llanitos ( us) and piojosos ( the other side)...( both nicknames are derisive) we would be fine.

When we lived in Spain we happen to rent near infamous" red light zone".
Local " ladies of easy virtue" offered us to keep our car at clients' parking (Gib number plates!) and look after it.
They were lovely neighbours ( if lively...)...
My baby son spent first months of his life cuddled to their generous bossoms...

I am not particularly this or that but people and their communities should come first.
Far too many politicians are just loudspeakers for party donors, who are megamoney . Far too many are just opportunists happy to switch sides like footballers switch clubs.

TBH I believe May will just sell us down the drain if chance given.
She does not care.


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> TBH I believe May will just sell us down the drain if chance given.
> She does not care.


She doesn't care about the majority of the rest of the UK either including those in england.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> Will you be stocking up just in case Scrippy?


More eggs please, it is getting serious!


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> More eggs please, it is getting serious!
> View attachment 305435


Phuqem Scrippy!

One boat doesn't make a flotilla. 

If the Spanish want to declare war against the British over Gibraltar let them try.:Rage

I've read that they're out matched by the Brits and are struggling to find a navy at the present time.

Someone should really tell the sad saps it's still at the bottom of the English Channel.

Let that be a lesson learned.....:Smug


----------



## cheekyscrip

How that is fair? Can Germans pick on someone their size?


----------



## KittenKong

Trust the Murdoch media to report this the way they did.

The Guardian reported the matter somewhat differently:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ordering-spanish-boat-out-of-gibraltar-waters

Is this how the disgusting media believe people will unite behind May as they did for Thatcher and her ailing government?

They'll be calling for "Benidorm" to be taken off the TV next.









This is so sad yet predictable in the event of Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...g-may-triggers-article-50-and-rocks-gibraltar


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> How that is fair? Can Germans pick on someone their size?
> View attachment 305439


That's an article from the Daily Brexcess. What else would you expect from them?

Regardless of what that Farage supporting paper says the EU have stressed they have no wish to punish the UK for leaving, yet don't want them to benefit from leaving either.

In other words May's, "Best possible deal" will be inferior to what the UK enjoyed as an EU member in the unlikely event she achieves this.

May put us in this mess by insisting on a no compromise hard Brexit dragging the entire UK, including Gibraltar into withdrawal of free movement, the customs union and single market.

Gibraltar, NI and Scotland didn't vote for this. May knows best of course.....

I am, and always will be on the side of the EU. I wouldn't blame them for "revenge" but, contrary to what the hideous gutter press report they are better then that. Junker recognised only half the UK population voted for this after all.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> That's an article from the Daily Brexcess. What else would you expect from them?
> 
> Regardless of what that Farage supporting paper says the EU have stressed they have no wish to punish the UK for leaving, yet don't want them to benefit from leaving either.
> 
> In other words May's, "Best possible deal" will be inferior to what the UK enjoyed as an EU member in the unlikely event she achieves this.
> 
> May put us in this mess by insisting on a no compromise hard Brexit dragging the entire UK, including Gibraltar into withdrawal of free movement, the customs union and single market.
> 
> Gibraltar, NI and Scotland didn't vote for this. May knows best of course.....
> 
> I am, and always will be on the side of the EU. I wouldn't blame them for "revenge" but, contrary to what the hideous gutter press report they are better then that. Junker recognised only half the UK population voted for this after all.


You are doing so much more to back up our leave votes than any of us ever could


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> That's an article from the Daily Brexcess. What else would you expect from them?
> 
> Regardless of what that Farage supporting paper says the EU have stressed they have no wish to punish the UK for leaving, yet don't want them to benefit from leaving either.
> 
> In other words May's, "Best possible deal" will be inferior to what the UK enjoyed as an EU member in the unlikely event she achieves this.
> 
> May put us in this mess by insisting on a no compromise hard Brexit dragging the entire UK, including Gibraltar into withdrawal of free movement, the customs union and single market.
> 
> Gibraltar, NI and Scotland didn't vote for this. May knows best of course.....
> 
> I am, and always will be on the side of the EU. I wouldn't blame them for "revenge" but, contrary to what the hideous gutter press report they are better then that. Junker recognised only half the UK population voted for this after all.


I would blame them for " revenge" on tiny defenceless community what always supported EU.
For all that spiel on human rights it is just disgusting.

No rights to punish Gibraltar for something we have no power over, no decision either.

Disgraceful, cowardish action.

Same if we caught some innocent Spanish person and beat them up, just in revenge for Spain.

Same logic.
I am disgusted and it is shame on EU.
Even some EU countries called it a disgrace on EU Parliament .

They have more sympathy for our plight.

That is not beacon of democracy.
That is what Trump or Putin do.

Sacrificing two little communities on both side of the frontier instead of just telling London and Madrid to bugger off.

If Juncker recognised half of UK did not vote for Brexit, greater the pity he did not recognised we did not vote for it at all .

Revenge is what terrorists do.
Attacking innocent and defenceless people.

I see it as big mistake on both sides to use our community for punishment or revenge knowing we have no choice.
Pity you cannot see it.
Yes, EU can also make mistakes.
Poland called this " Spanish obsession with Gibraltar". So if Poland, EU country can see it as wrong? Polish media condemn that " revenge".

@Zaros ... you better extend the kennels...enactment of of Romulus and Remus might be on the way...

Brexit dropped us in it. We will do our best, but send us bigger boats.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps I am. I do look at papers like The Sun and Mail from time to time but see them for what they are, aware many believe in what they write.
> 
> I'm also an advertisers' worst nightmare by seeing adverts on TV for what they are, total rubbish!
> 
> Yes, I might be different from others as if people were all like me advertisers wouldn't bother and commercial tv and radio would go bust!
> 
> But I seem to represent a very small minority.....


Your are indeed preternaturally perspicacious. Would that all were so astute.


----------



## shadowmare

KittenKong said:


> Gibraltar, NI and Scotland didn't vote for this. *May knows best of course..*...
> 
> I am, and always will be on the side of the EU. I wouldn't blame them for "revenge" but, contrary to what the hideous gutter press report they are better then that. Junker recognised only half the UK population voted for this after all.


Read your p[ost and suddenly remembered a scene from Tangled :Hilarious (watched it while babysitting a couple of weeks ago) There's some resemblance here :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> I would blame them for " revenge" on tiny defenceless community what always supported EU.
> For all that spiel on human rights it is just disgusting.
> 
> No rights to punish Gibraltar for something we have no power over, no decision either.
> 
> Disgraceful, cowardish action.
> 
> Same if we caught some innocent Spanish person and beat them up, just in revenge for Spain.
> 
> Same logic.
> I am disgusted and it is shame on EU.
> Even some EU countries called it a disgrace on EU Parliament .
> 
> That is not beacon of democracy.
> That is what Trump or Putin do.
> 
> Sacrificing two little communities on both side of the frontier instead of just telling London and Madrid to bugger off.


Well yes and no. Gibraltar is part of the UK after all and will not be in the EU for much longer. The EU must look after their own.

The UK as a whole voted to leave. Everyone whether in NI, Gibraltar and Scotland are told they must unite and embrace Brexit by May and Brexiteers.

So, the entire UK must face the consequences for listening to xenophobia and lies such as staying in the single market and £350 for the NHS.

Only England and Wales voted for this, but try telling May that.....

Having said that I do see your point. The EU should recognise the significant remain victories in Gibraltar, Scotland and NI. 48% didn't vote for this UK wide.

At the present time the gutter press who drip fed anti EU propaganda for decades persuaded their readers to vote for Brexit with promises of a better future and a lot of flag waving.

To stir up hatred towards Spain as a country and its people, as they did with Argentina and its people 35 years ago less than a week into "Brexit Proper" was damn right irresponsible.

As much as it pains me to say this, as any Brexiteer would probably tell you, we'll have to wait to see May and her team work on negotiations with the 27 member states.

Promoting an avoidable war would be a brilliant distraction if things go sour.

The EU didn't ask the UK to leave. 
The EU must look after their own.

If it wasn't for the referendum no one would be in this mess.

This is the divisive type of pap the popular press report. A quick Google search on Sun Falklands "reporting" from 1982 brings this and other front pages for example.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> You, myself and many others were aware this would happen but many ignored it as, "Scaremongering" or they couldn't care less.
> 
> Having said that, I consider it unfair to blame the EU in any way as, when Spain joined the possibility of the UK leaving wasn't on the agenda.
> 
> Like, say if Poland or another former Iron Curtain left the EU to the mercy of Russia. The EU couldn't do anything to help the country who have left.
> 
> In the EU referendum only England and Wales voted to leave the EU but Scotland, NI and Gibraltar are all having to undergo a hard Brexit with the ending of free movement and the single market. May believes she unilaterally rules these countries so they don't have a say in her plans (England and Wales can get on with it - they voted for this).
> 
> Please don't think I'm telling you how to think but think twice before thinking The Sun is on your side.
> 
> *Don't forget, had it not been for this paper Brexit may not have happened.*
> The paper, with the Mail, Express and others acted as huge adverts for the leave campaign.
> 
> When the Sun tells its readers to do something, most do it. Rather like Prime Ministers.
> 
> What they're appearing to do is cause conflict between the English and Spanish, not only government's but between the people too.
> 
> In the Falklands Argentinian football players were prevented from playing due to the hatred towards anything Argentinian.
> 
> *Certainly, May speaks as if voters were all Sun readers.*
> 
> *How many had heard of the Falklands before the "crisis" which led to war?*
> 
> Finally I'm English and currently live in England. I no longer call myself "British", I'm ashamed of that title.
> 
> I'm European first. May and Brexiteers cannot take that away from me however hard they try.


Utter carp. The readership of the Sun is less than 2 million (1.7 m including you). It is absolute balderdash to keep insisting that the sun was so influential. I don't know a single person who buys or reads it - except you. Yes I had heard of the Falklands before the Falklands War - I think most people who went to school and studied geography have. So you no longer call yourself British because you are ashamed of that title but you call yourself English 



KittenKong said:


> I'll have to ask the Spanish the next time I'm there. Seeing the paper is sold in just about every newsagent there, as in Cyprus, it must sell well amongst ex-pats.
> 
> *Theresa May appears to believe The Sun represents the views of most people the way she bleats on.*
> 
> The views of the majority of Sun readers are fed to them by the paper.


Really? I haven't heard her suggest the Sun represents any of us - when in particular did she say that it did?



KittenKong said:


> Perhaps I am. I do look at papers like The Sun and Mail from time to time but see them for what they are, aware many believe in what they write.
> 
> I'm also an advertisers' worst nightmare by seeing adverts on TV for what they are, total rubbish!
> 
> Yes, I might be different from others as if people were all like me advertisers wouldn't bother and commercial tv and radio would go bust!
> 
> But I seem to represent a very small minority.....


Funny because earlier in this thread you kept quoting adverts at me and couldn't understand why I didn't know what you were talking about - something to do with Tony and Frosties I think.

This constant harping on about the Sun is really rather tedious :Yawn:Yawn


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Your are indeed preternaturally perspicacious. Would that all were so astute.


Now come on.......you've got a thick one here, I had to go and look that up


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Utter carp. The readership of the Sun is less than 2 million (1.7 m including you). It is absolute balderdash to keep insisting that the sun was so influential. I don't know a single person who buys or reads it - except you. Yes I had heard of the Falklands before the Falklands War - I think most people who went to school and studied geography have. So you no longer call yourself British because you are ashamed of that title but you call yourself English
> 
> Really? I haven't heard her suggest the Sun represents any of us - when in particular did she say that it did?
> 
> Funny because earlier in this thread you kept quoting adverts at me and couldn't understand why I didn't know what you were talking about - something to do with Tony and Frosties I think.
> 
> This constant harping on about the Sun is really rather tedious :Yawn:Yawn


To answer your questions I am English and British by birth. I can't change that!

No, May hasn't actually said she believes the Sun represents the UK population in general. She does talk as if she believes they are by reading their letters page.

Yes, I agree in recent years sales of Newspapers have diminished in favour of social media and on line news. My personal favourite, The Independent, is exclusively on line nowadays as an example.

Your resistance to advertising is something we have in common. I was surprised you never heard of Tony the Tiger who's been around since the '60.

As famous as the face of Frosties as the Honey Monster is to Sugar Puffs!


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Well yes and no. Gibraltar is part of the UK after all and will not be in the EU for much longer. The EU must look after their own.
> 
> The UK as a whole voted to leave. Everyone whether in NI, Gibraltar and Scotland are told they must unite and embrace Brexit by May and Brexiteers.
> 
> So, the entire UK must face the consequences for listening to xenophobia and lies such as staying in the single market and £350 for the NHS.
> 
> Only England and Wales voted for this, but try telling May that.....
> 
> Having said that I do see your point. The EU should recognise the significant remain victories in Gibraltar, Scotland and NI. 48% didn't vote for this UK wide.
> 
> At the present time the gutter press who drip fed anti EU propaganda for decades persuaded their readers to vote for Brexit with promises of a better future and a lot of flag waving.
> 
> To stir up hatred towards Spain as a country and its people, as they did with Argentina and its people 35 years ago less than a week into "Brexit Proper" was damn right irresponsible.
> 
> As much as it pains me to say this, as any Brexiteer would probably tell you, we'll have to wait to see May and her team work on negotiations with the 27 member states.
> 
> Promoting an avoidable war would be a brilliant distraction if things go sour.
> 
> The EU didn't ask the UK to leave.
> The EU must look after their own.
> 
> If it wasn't for the referendum no one would be in this mess.
> 
> This is the divisive type of pap the popular press report. A quick Google search on Sun Falklands "reporting" from 1982 brings this and other front pages for example.
> View attachment 305466


You are joking?
In bit of bad taste?
Are we a threat to Spain?

Do you really think that May would forgo her orange juice let alone get into some such?
We talking about two NATO countries.
Simply Rojoy behaved as expected of PP.
EU made stupid mistake.
As there is no place for revenge by picking on innocent people who definitely were not supporting it.

If in faraway Poland they call this bullying and disgusting, you trying to justify it?

By the way during Falklands Poland rutted for Britain.
I was a kid, but remember it how we were impressed by the British.

Then Spanish sent whom armada to defend uninhabited Isla de Perejil. No more than a rock and few goats.
But no one messes with their rock in Africa.

Do not understand why you still think that EU was right in punishing Gibraltar for Brexit.

I do wish we stayed in EU.
I never thought EU is perfect.
They made quite a few mistakes.
That is a shameful one.


----------



## Honeys mum

rottiepointerhouse said:


> This constant harping on about the Sun is really rather tedious :Yawn:Yawn


Have to agree with you RPH, but I just had to look up why the Sun is so popular this is what I found.

*The Sun newspaper- why is it so popular *
*The Sun is a simple newspaper which appeals to the simple less-educated population. They have titillating stories which are often at best only loosely based on the truth, and more often just fantasy. This is what some people want. These are the people who aren't interested in current affairs, foreign events, or real facts. They just want something that will excite them. Basically, it's a comic for grown-ups.*

*Thank goodness we don't read it.*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Have to agree with you RPH, but I just had to look up why the Sun is so popular this is what I found.
> 
> *The Sun newspaper- why is it so popular *
> *The Sun is a simple newspaper which appeals to the simple less-educated population. They have titillating stories which are often at best only loosely based on the truth, and more often just fantasy. This is what some people want. These are the people who aren't interested in current affairs, foreign events, or real facts. They just want something that will excite them. Basically, it's a comic for grown-ups.*
> 
> *Thank goodness we don't read it.*


 Foreigners are encouraged to read it when they attempt to learn English, as it has very limited vocabulary....and pictures!!!
Also it gives them the idea of the English!!!

It is used in schools abroad!!!!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> To answer your questions I am English and British by birth. I can't change that!
> 
> No, May hasn't actually said she believes the Sun represents the UK population in general. She does talk as if she believes they are by reading their letters page.
> 
> Yes, I agree in recent years sales of Newspapers have diminished in favour of social media and on line news. My personal favourite, The Independent, is exclusively on line nowadays as an example.
> 
> Your resistance to advertising is something we have in common. I was surprised you never heard of Tony the Tiger who's been around since the '60.
> 
> As famous as the face of Frosties as the Honey Monster is to Sugar Puffs!


So you are English and British. Good. I thought so. So she (Mrs May) hasn't said that she believes the Sun represents the UK population. Good. I didn't think she had. So the sales of newspapers in general and therefore the influence of newspapers in general has diminished. Good. I have never eaten Frosties or Sugar Puffs so I have no idea what you are talking about. Glad we cleared that up


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is what angers me about this thread @KittenKong and @noushka05 quote newspaper after newspaper article and when one of the known Brexit supporters on here does @Goblin jumps down there throats.

@KittenKong and @noushka05 don't you realise you are doing nothing but making the case for Brexit supporters stronger. @KittenKong you keep going Murdoch press it's you that keeps quoting it in the form of the sun newspaper and then you call a news article you don't like right wing news seriously get a grip. Not so long ago @KittenKong you was saying the Telegraph was printing facts then when it published something you didn't like you called it the torygraph. How can a newspaper print facts, most of the stories in them are designed to get people to buy them like the Sun newspaper you keep going on about.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> This is what angers me about this thread @KittenKong and @noushka05 quote newspaper after newspaper article and when one of the known Brexit supporters on here does @Goblin jumps down there throats.
> 
> @KittenKong and @noushka05 don't you realise you are doing nothing but making the case for Brexit supporters stronger. @KittenKong you keep going Murdoch press it's you that keeps quoting it in the form of the sun newspaper and then you call a news article you don't like right wing news seriously get a grip. Not so long ago @KittenKong you was saying the Telegraph was printing facts then when it published something you didn't like you called it the torygraph. How can a newspaper print facts, most of the stories in them are designed to get people to buy them like the Sun newspaper you keep going on about.


As is often the case, you make a good point sir. They aren't worth your anger though; more appropriately your pity.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> As is often the case, you make a good point sir. They aren't worth your anger though; more appropriately your pity.


Thank you very much @Satori.

I just got annoyed yesterday with a certain person, but it isn't worth me getting angry over something someone says on a forum.

@cheekyscrip I do feel sorry for the Brits in Gibraltar and thought Spain flexing it's small muscles today by sending a single warship through British Territorial waters around Gibraltar was out of order. I do hope that the Gibraltar issue is dealt with swiftly at the beginning of the forthcoming negotiations with the EU as Gibraltar is not for giving away or is it for sale.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Thank you very much @Satori.
> 
> I just got annoyed yesterday with a certain person, but it isn't worth me getting angry over something someone says on a forum.
> 
> @cheekyscrip I do feel sorry for the Brits in Gibraltar and thought Spain flexing it's small muscles today by sending a single warship through British Territorial waters around Gibraltar was out of order. I do hope that the Gibraltar issue is dealt with swiftly at the beginning of the forthcoming negotiations with the EU as Gibraltar is not for giving away or is it for sale.


There is the good ole chap.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Thank you very much @Satori.
> 
> I just got annoyed yesterday with a certain person, but it isn't worth me getting angry over something someone says on a forum.
> 
> @cheekyscrip I do feel sorry for the Brits in Gibraltar and thought Spain flexing it's small muscles today by sending a single warship through British Territorial waters around Gibraltar was out of order. I do hope that the Gibraltar issue is dealt with swiftly at the beginning of the forthcoming negotiations with the EU as Gibraltar is not for giving away or is it for sale.


I've got to the stage Stockwell were I cannot even muster you the effort to respond sensibly to one of the habitual posters on this topic stockwell.


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> No rights to punish Gibraltar for something we have no power over, no decision either.


@cheekyscrip, you are not independent, you are part of the UK. "You" may have voted to remain, the UK didn't which means that "you" didn't.
You talk about revenge, it isn't. EU is looking after the EU. Now spain has a veto and it's flexing it's muscles. Hope Ireland also gets a veto and would hope everyone here could support that. What is needed even internally within the EU is negotiation. Other countries within the EU can put pressure on Spain. The UK and others should push for the other EU nations to make such a stand. The more "war" is called for and the EU is falsely blamed in UK media the less likely they are going to do so.



stockwellcat said:


> This is what angers me about this thread @KittenKong and @noushka05 quote newspaper after newspaper article and when one of the known Brexit supporters on here does @Goblin jumps down there throats.


Well you should be able to argue your case personally. Not my fault the newspaper articles supporting leave are so easy to rip to shreds using actual facts.

Welcome back again.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> This is what angers me about this thread @KittenKong and @noushka05 quote newspaper after newspaper article and when one of the known Brexit supporters on here does @Goblin jumps down there throats.
> 
> @KittenKong and @noushka05 don't you realise you are doing nothing but making the case for Brexit supporters stronger. @KittenKong you keep going Murdoch press it's you that keeps quoting it in the form of the sun newspaper and then you call a news article you don't like right wing news seriously get a grip. Not so long ago @KittenKong you was saying the Telegraph was printing facts then when it published something you didn't like you called it the torygraph. How can a newspaper print facts, most of the stories in them are designed to get people to buy them like the Sun newspaper you keep going on about.


Awh I know noush in real life, she is one the nicest , kindest people out there, cares for everything. We are oceans apart in our views, both of us trying to change the opinions of the other, neither succeeding,, goes to prove opposites can get along fine , which sadly sometimes goes out the window with some on this thread.

Cheeky, despite the terrible situation she is in has been one of the most courtious posters on this thread, despite everything she is never rude nor condescending many of her posts are tinged with humour, shame more cant adopt her style x


----------



## 1290423

[QUOTE="Goblin,

Well you should be able to argue your case personally. Not my fault the newspaper articles supporting leave are so easy to rip to shreds using actual facts.

Welcome back again.[/QUOTE]

Oh really, do you have expert evidence to support the remark made towards stockwell? Or are you still making it up as you go along?
There is nothing whatsoever lacking in stockwells communication skills, and I suspect there are a number of members, from both sides who would agree likewise.


----------



## Goblin

The reason many people take Murdoch's newspapers with a pince of salt:

When asked why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That's easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'.
So tell me.. how many personal meetings has he had with May since the referendum? Know May "popped in" to see him for an hour during her whistlestop visit to the States.



DT said:


> Oh really, do you have expert evidence to support the remark made towards stockwell? Or are you still making it up as you go along?
> There is nothing whatsoever lacking in stockwells communication skills


Ahh, the Farage tactic, attack/divert rather than discuss.

Never said there was anything wrong with stockwellcat's communication skillls. I simply mentioned as a leave supporter they are quite welcome to use facts to pull apart the newspaper articles posted from those supporting remain. I will say they are not the only one who do not. Instead we get sarcastic remarks or a negative post on the person posting. The content and how it is wrong is somehow ignored. That in itself says a lot.

Edit: Or do you disagree that if people do not agree with a link or article posted they should be able to actually respond with a reasoned article why it is wrong?


----------



## Jesthar

Honeys mum said:


> *The Sun newspaper- why is it so popular *
> *The Sun is a simple newspaper which appeals to the simple less-educated population. They have titillating stories which are often at best only loosely based on the truth, and more often just fantasy. This is what some people want. These are the people who aren't interested in current affairs, foreign events, or real facts. They just want something that will excite them. Basically, it's a comic for grown-ups.*


:Hilarious That is the best, most accurate description of the Sun I have ever heard! 

*files away for future use*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> The reason many people take Murdoch's newspapers with a pince of salt:


A remainer on this thread keeps quoting the Sun newspaper (only one person on this thread goes on about it and Murdoch yet this person loves reading the sun newspaper).

My point is with you is that you are quick to moan about leave supporters quoting newspaper articles and you did, but when people who supported the same as you do you don't say anything. This is a biased attitude you have.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> @cheekyscrip, you are not independent, you are part of the UK. "You" may have voted to remain, the UK didn't which means that "you" didn't.
> You talk about revenge, it isn't. EU is looking after the EU. Now spain has a veto and it's flexing it's muscles. Hope Ireland also gets a veto and would hope everyone here could support that. What is needed even internally within the EU is negotiation. Other countries within the EU can put pressure on Spain. The UK and others should push for the other EU nations to make such a stand. The more "war" is called for and the EU is falsely blamed in UK media the less likely they are going to do so.
> 
> Well you should be able to argue your case personally. Not my fault the newspaper articles supporting leave are so easy to rip to shreds using actual facts.
> 
> Welcome back again.


Manfred Weber said it is revenge. He is MEP, German.

I would say, do not worry. TM and BJ are easily persuaded and will have no qualms to sell us to get " the best deal possible"....
Why this omission in Article 50 ? It was a decision of Davies and May.
The Sun would also run different story .

No war, I assure you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> This is what angers me about this thread @KittenKong and @noushka05 quote newspaper after newspaper article and when one of the known Brexit supporters on here does @Goblin jumps down there throats.
> 
> @KittenKong and @noushka05 don't you realise you are doing nothing but making the case for Brexit supporters stronger. @KittenKong you keep going Murdoch press it's you that keeps quoting it in the form of the sun newspaper and then you call a news article you don't like right wing news seriously get a grip. Not so long ago @KittenKong you was saying the Telegraph was printing facts then when it published something you didn't like you called it the torygraph. How can a newspaper print facts, most of the stories in them are designed to get people to buy them like the Sun newspaper you keep going on about.


The problem with some people is they can't seem to differentiate between NEWS & 'opinion' dressed as news. Quality papers like the Guardian clearly define their opinion pieces from their news articles. Most of the right wing press do not. They deliberately blur the line between news & opinion. Opinions aren't facts 

You don't have to be a Sun reader. The Mail, Express, Westmonster, Hopkins, Farage, Trump, May & her government etc use the same hateful, divisive rhetoric.

Remainers have tried to show you loads of facts without jumping down anyones throat but to no avail. The simple fact is you'd made your mind up prior to the referendum & you don't want to be informed. You said so yourself. So when brexit really starts to bite, just have the balls to own it & not push the blame elsewhere.

.


----------



## noushka05

Basically this then @stockwellcat ?

Mathematically, the Brexit escalation curve shows that at
this rate the EU will be completely destroyed by tomorrow










(by David Schneider)


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> You are joking?
> In bit of bad taste?
> Are we a threat to Spain?
> 
> Do you really think that May would forgo her orange juice let alone get into some such?
> We talking about two NATO countries.
> Simply Rojoy behaved as expected of PP.
> EU made stupid mistake.
> As there is no place for revenge by picking on innocent people who definitely were not supporting it.
> 
> If in faraway Poland they call this bullying and disgusting, you trying to justify it?
> 
> By the way during Falklands Poland rutted for Britain.
> I was a kid, but remember it how we were impressed by the British.
> 
> Then Spanish sent whom armada to defend uninhabited Isla de Perejil. No more than a rock and few goats.
> But no one messes with their rock in Africa.
> 
> Do not understand why you still think that EU was right in punishing Gibraltar for Brexit.
> 
> I do wish we stayed in EU.
> I never thought EU is perfect.
> They made quite a few mistakes.
> That is a shameful one.


Not joking at all, just mentioning how things stand. Certainly wasn't my own personal opinion!

If Gibraltar wants to remain British it must leave the EU, sacrifice the single market and rights of free movement along with the rest of the UK. Goodness knows how that's going to work but if that's what Gibraltar wants this would invalidate the EU referendum result, (not that TM has taken any notice of it).

Personally I consider staying in the EU more important than staying "British" but that's me. If this is the case with Gibraltar, sorry but you can't expect the EU to be on your side. You'll no longer be a member.

If, like the SNP, the government of Gibraltar want a say in the Brexit negotiations but May refuses that's a different matter entirely of course.

The EU (and Nato) were established so countries work together rather than fighting wars with each other. It worked for over 60 years.

A country, ie the UK leaves the block. Four days in to the Brexit process an obsolete Tory suggested a possible conflict with one of the former EU allies!

Didn't take them long did it.

Now the press who acted as massive free advertising for the Leave campaign seem to be itching for conflict. Theresa May and her team haven't even started negotiations with the 27 member states! Oh yes, she's too busy making friends in countries with controversial human rights records.

You regard my post as bad taste? You are entitled to think that and don't mind you saying so. So I hope you don't mind me saying, like TM you seem to have joined the Brexiteers anti EU rhetoric overnight.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

the EU are interfering in something that doesn't concern them. Gibraltar is British an to the British and has done since 1713 including the waters surrounding Gibraltar. The EU have no right to make it a really. There are many similar.
What if French claim Channel Islands and so on?
May behave badly and EU does not look very much like a leader of free world and guardian of human rights?
I can only read in four languages, but that decision was condemned by media in other EU countries, even in Spain.

Gibraltar is not disputed territory, Spain has no claim at all. Ceded in 1713!!! Traded it like it traded Florida. Would they press USA to get it back? 
Why should be given veto?
It is not ok to destroy us to spite May.
Protection of their own do not apply - are we a threat to Spain?

Ridiculous. We provide jobs and trade for the whole of Campo de Gibraltar.
That EU decision would hit those people just as hard.
They are in EU. What about them?
EU will chuck some funds for corrupt local governments?

EU happily sacrificed ordinary people on both sides.
Shame.

@KittenKong EU behaved badly.[/USER][/QUOTE]


----------



## noushka05

This cartoon by Steve Bell on the Great Repeal Bill nails it  https://www.theguardian.com/comment...es-great-repeal-bill-cartoon?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> This cartoon by Steve Bell on the Great Repeal Bill nails it  https://www.theguardian.com/comment...es-great-repeal-bill-cartoon?CMP=share_btn_tw
> 
> View attachment 305482


Not a person of many words then Steve Bell. Has he left school yet? Sitting and doodling silly pictures like this and causing more friction between remainers and leavers. Very clever of him and of the Guardian for publishing it


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> the EU are interfering in something that doesn't concern them. Gibraltar is British an to the British and has done since 1713 including the waters surrounding Gibraltar. The EU have no right to make it a really. There are many similar.
> What if French claim Channel Islands and so on?
> May behave badly and EU does not look very much like a leader of free world and guardian of human rights?
> I can only read in four languages, but that decision was condemned by media in other EU countries, even in Spain.
> 
> Gibraltar is not disputed territory, Spain has no claim at all. Ceded in 1713!!! Traded it like it traded Florida. Would they press USA to get it back?
> Why should be given veto?
> It is not ok to destroy us to spite May.
> Protection of their own do not apply - are we a threat to Spain?
> 
> Ridiculous. We provide jobs and trade for the whole of Campo de Gibraltar.
> That EU decision would hit those people just as hard.
> They are in EU. What about them?
> EU will chuck some funds for corrupt local governments?
> 
> EU happily sacrificed ordinary people on both sides.
> Shame.
> 
> @KittenKong EU behaved badly.[/USER]


[/QUOTE]

Florida is not in the EU, soon neither will Gibraltar.

If you want Gibraltar to stay British which is incompatible with remaining in the EU you can't expect the EU to look after you anymore. That's Theresa May's job.

I wouldn't expect the RAC to call out and fix my car if I was an AA member.

End of.


----------



## Honeys mum

DT said:


> I've got to the stage Stockwell were I cannot even muster you the effort to respond sensibly to one of the habitual posters on this topic stockwell.


Me to DT.



Jesthar said:


> :Hilarious That is the best, most accurate description of the Sun I have ever heard!


Me too Jesthar, I just had to post it. Hope i didn't upset anyone.(wasn't my intention to do so.)



stockwellcat said:


> I just got annoyed yesterday with a certain person, but it isn't worth me getting angry over something someone says on a forum.


Don't let them upset you , As you say it's not worth it, Ive come to the conclusion that certain remainers will never agree to anything we leavers say. So when they come back at me I tend to just put more on.



DT said:


> There is nothing whatsoever lacking in stockwells communication skills,


For what its worth, I totally agree with DT. You make some very good points.


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Theresa's a bit preoccupied with Cadbury's at the moment.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nd-saudi-arabia-vicars-daughter-a7665536.html
> 
> Cadbury's Cream Eggs;
> 
> How does Theresa eat hers?
> 
> Probably with a lot of help from the opposition.....
> 
> Who'd like to ram them down her phuqin' throat!


HAHA So would I

May has been deservedly pulled to pieces for this. Heres a few examples Ive spotted on my travels round cyber space.

This is not a joke. Theresa May condemns Cadbury but not Saudi Arabia's awful human rights
record or Michael Howard's anti-EU war rhetoric.

*

James O'Brien*‏Verified account

The Lost Commandments:

11) Thou shalt not help children fleeing war. 
12) Thou shalt lose the plot about chocolate eggs.
#*ChristianValues*

*Harry Leslie Smith*‏Verified account

If only Theresa May showed same moral courage
over Saudi Arabia war crimes that she does
for #*easter* eggs, she'd be human

Our Prime Minister: A story in four parts.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


>


OMG Don't you even realise the implications if the EU does collapse?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Florida is not in the EU, soon neither will Gibraltar.

If you want Gibraltar to stay British which is incompatible with remaining in the EU you can't expect the EU to look after you anymore. That's Theresa May's job.

I wouldn't expect the RAC to call out and fix my car if I was an AA member.

End of.[/QUOTE]
It is not a car.
Unless you say now it would be ok to run you off the road, because they have bigger car..
Spanish ultra right treated us really badly.
Frontier delays, sewage in water, refinery that is very, very toxic and past date, endless incursions into our waters and airspace. Even towing our boats out of our waters and beating people up. By official authorities.
Shooting at jet skiers!!!
So why would anyone want to be Spanish?
Get the picture.
EU was aware, not doing enough, but at least telling them off now and then.

My stand on Brexit did not change, but I and many others also from EU think it was morally wrong to use two small communities as cannon fodder.

I think many EU members are critical of many EU decisions. EU allows freedom of speech. EU made a bad decision.
That does not make Brexit a good one though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> OMG Don't you even realise the implications if the EU does collapse?


Yep.

The UK won't be there to bail them out.

The UK will be stable with all those other trade deals it struck outside of the EU after it leaves.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Yep.
> 
> The UK won't be there to bail them out.
> 
> The UK will be stable with all those other trade deals it struck outside of the EU after it leaves.


You really don't get it do you. You have learned nothing from history.


----------



## Lurcherlad

rona said:


> You are doing so much more to back up our leave votes than any of us ever could


Just as all the "guilt tripping" and "shaming" of anyone who voted leave does IMO


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Yep.
> 
> The UK won't be there to bail them out.
> 
> The UK will be stable with all those other trade deals it struck outside of the EU after it leaves.


EU was a way to resolve disputes in Europe without the wars of previous centuries. Hard to imagine people are willing the EU to collapse.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


>


Wilders' defeat in Holland must have been very disappointing for you.

That strengthened the EU and will be strengthened again if Le Penn loses.

And Article 50 has united the EU stronger than ever.

Poor you.


----------



## noushka05

God Almighty is this what we've been reduced to - courting fascists, dictators & murderers. Trump, Erdogan, Saudi & now Duterte.

Liam Fox says "shared values" with President Duterte. Duterte says he's murdered 22 people, 1 thrown from a helicopter. Brexit is looking more squalid by the day.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...duterte-brexit-article-50-trade-a7667031.html


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> That strengthened the EU and will be strengthened again if Le Penn loses.


Who says she is going to lose.



KittenKong said:


> Poor you.


I don't think so.

FGS what is wrong with you, its only a cartoonists image. But thanks for proving what I said in my earlier post to be right.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> Who says she is going to lose.


Didn't you know remainers have a time machine and can see into the future  

Honestly they are just making wild theories and assumptions. They may have been right on a few things so far out of being lucky that's all. They won one court case out of luck it doesn't mean they will win another one (the Supreme Justices where split on the outcome of the court case so it wasn't unanimous).


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Ive come to the conclusion that certain remainers will never agree to anything we leavers say.


Maybe you should consider that may be because you are unable to back that up with anything approaching facts like advantages to leaving. In fact what do you say.. EU is breaking up.. We won a vote, trade deals with the rest of the world (already have 50+ as part of the EU) but then WTO will save us.. We knew what we were voting for, even though that changes and people say not to worry about the single market we will still be in the EEA (Norway option rejected).


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> HAHA So would I
> 
> May has been deservedly pulled to pieces for this. Heres a few examples Ive spotted on my travels round cyber space.
> 
> This is not a joke. Theresa May condemns Cadbury but not Saudi Arabia's awful human rights
> record


Yes I know, tell me about it. Thank the Lord we finally have a PM that doesn't want to wage war on every country we don't see eye to eye with 100%. There's been enough wars for no reason (or oil). Mrs May is clearly a far better diplomat than we've seen in our PM's for decades.


----------



## rona

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/regions/gulf-region/index_en.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/philippines/

Then we all know how much they courted Turkey until the migrant crisis when they then shafted them
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/turkey/report-turkey/
"In March, the EU and Turkey agreed a "migration deal" aimed at preventing irregular migration from Turkey to the EU. It also resulted in muting EU criticism of human rights abuses in Turkey."

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/turkey/index_en.htm

Of course we all know about the sneaky deal they tried with USA
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/priorities/balanced-eu-us-free-trade-agreement_en


----------



## Odin_cat

Quick grammar lesson:
'If' is used to express possibility not certainty.
No time machine is necessary .


----------



## KittenKong

This won't please many Brexiteers who thought it would be all over in 2019. "Britain for the British" may have to wait a little longer.

Great words from Tim Farron though.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-go-on-in-transition-after-brexit-theresa-may


----------



## stockwellcat.

Odin_cat said:


> Quick grammar lesson:
> 'If' is used to express possibility not certainty.
> No time machine is necessary .


Like maybe as well is used as possibility as well but also used as not sure.

Could be is also a phrase used by many remainers but is used simply because they don't know.

Secondly expert = normal person who doesn't have a clue and is always wrong but loves attention because they think they know it all. They also never apologise when they are wrong 

Still remainers think they can see into the future like there friends the so called experts and tell us about nothing but doom and gloom but quit frankly are only making up theories to scaremonger as they don't know themselves.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top..._brexit_literally_isn_t_a_done_deal_1_4958704


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top..._brexit_literally_isn_t_a_done_deal_1_4958704
> 
> View attachment 305497


You're allowed your opinion.

Let's see next October 2018 what is on the table from the negotiations.

You never know many remainers may have given up by then.

Now you know how it feels after 40+ years of silencing those that didn't want the UK to join the EC.


----------



## Odin_cat

stockwellcat said:


> Like maybe as well is used as possibility as well but also used as not sure.
> 
> Could be is also a phrase used by many remainers but is used simply because they don't know.
> 
> Secondly expert = normal person who doesn't have a clue and is always wrong but loves attention because they think they know it all. They also never apologise when they are wrong
> 
> Still remainers think they can see into the future like there friends the so called experts and tell us about nothing but doom and gloom but quit frankly are only making up theories to scaremonger as they don't know themselves.


You're absolutely right, nobody can know, but I'd rather trust those who base their judgements and predictions on evidence rather than blind faith.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Odin_cat said:


> You're absolutely right, nobody can know, but I'd rather trust those who base their judgements and predictions on evidence rather than blind faith.


What evidence?

No member state of the EU has left yet under article 50.

You can't say facts because facts present themselves after events have happened not before an event has happened.

This then suggests that the evidence you believe in is only predictions in reality so is blind faith as well.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> You really don't get it do you. You have learned nothing from history.


Yep, I learnt about henry eighth, chippendale , a few other odds and sods, wonder what they taught in german, maybe not to go to war with england


----------



## 1290423

Odin_cat said:


> You're absolutely right, nobody can know, but I'd rather trust those who base their judgements and predictions on evidence rather than blind faith.


Oh I love predictions, is mystic meg still around?


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Then we all know how much they courted Turkey until the migrant crisis when they then shafted them


Yes Rona, we know the EU has faults.. that's why you are leaving (rather than using the UK's influence to change it). So instead of simply providing what the EU is doing wrong, why not instead show what a great pillar of light the UK government is and how it's any different? Maybe you could show how leaving is going to help those in the UK suffering in poverty, or those who are ill, persecuted through being a "foreigner".


----------



## Odin_cat

DT said:


> Oh I love predictions, is mystic meg still around?


Never heard of her... What's her field of expertise?


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> maybe not to go to war with england


Actually they learned not to go to war with the US as the US saved the UK in part simply due to it's industrial power base.

What the Germans did learn was nationalism is not the solution to problems. That lessons should be learned from the mistakes of the past. Too bad many in the UK cannot look at the history of the UK and europe, learning from it.


----------



## KittenKong

Odin_cat said:


> Never heard of her... What's her field of expertise?


Ahem, Mystic Meg is (or was) The Sun's astrologer........


----------



## stockwellcat.

Odin_cat said:


> Never heard of her... What's her field of expertise?


What you have never heard of meg, mystic meg:







@KittenKong will know who she is as she used to be in the Sun newspaper (Murdoch press) apparently, wouldn't know myself as I don't read that paper I only found out googling it.


----------



## Odin_cat

I apologise for my ignorance, meaning no offence to her, I wouldn't call her any expert.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Odin_cat said:


> I apologise for my ignorance, meaning no offence to her, I wouldn't call her any expert.


But she is an expert for so called Sun newspaper readers @KittenKong


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> HAHA So would I
> *Theresa May condemns Cadbury but not Saudi Arabia's awful human rights*
> record or Michael Howard's anti-EU war rhetoric.
> *
> If only Theresa May showed same moral courage
> over Saudi Arabia war crimes* that she does
> for #*easter* eggs, *she'd be human*


But there's money to be made from people suffering Noush'. You of all people should know that, the decline of the NHS is a fine example.

Giving support to any of these lunatics is akin to being their accomplice.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Odin_cat said:


> I apologise for my ignorance, meaning no offence to her, I wouldn't call her any expert.


Can I ask being serious here. How can you trust an expert when they are wrong the majority of the time with there predictions not facts?

Point to remember: Facts present themselves after an event has happened not before and so called experts base there facts (really they are predictions not facts) on the worst possible outcome but when the event turns out not to have been as bad as they said that so called fact is then downgraded to a prediction. They weren't facts in the first place but just opinions based on theory. They don't know themselves these so called experts who thrive to get attention and then make themselves out to look like plonkers when they get there opinion wrong.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> You never know many remainers may have given up by then.


No doubt some will become apathetic and will resign to this fact, but it won't make them Brexiteers.


stockwellcat said:


> What you have never heard of meg, mystic meg:
> View attachment 305498
> @KittenKong will know who she is as she used to be in the Sun newspaper (Murdoch press) apparently, wouldn't know myself only found out googling it.


Ahem, you were right. Even got there before you did with my post above!

.....Then I know who Ant and Dec are too but doesn't mean I'm fans of them, as with the Sun!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> .....Then I know who Ant and Dec are too


What Ant and Dec are experts to  Wow can't wait to hear the facts (predictions) from them on Brexit. I am joking with you of course.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> I apologise for my ignorance, meaning no offence to her, I wouldn't call her any expert.


So sorry, my mistake, I misunderstood, thought you wanted us to listen to predictions


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> What Ant and Dec are experts to  Wow can't wait to hear the facts (predictions) from them on Brexit. I am joking with you of course.


Why is that a joke, there predictions could be just a viable as anyone elses,
But reckon id rather trust ladbrookes


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> But reckon id rather trust ladbrookes


I prefer William Hill and Ladbrokes any day


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> I prefer William Hill and Ladbrokes any day


Relieved you said william and not benny


----------



## KittenKong

UK wide rising politician of the year has to be the Lib Dems' Tim Farron. He really has excelled himself in putting the party back in the limelight.

Brilliant speech. No wonder the Mail regard him as a threat!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> UK wide rising politician of the year has to be the Lib Dems' Tim Farron. He really has excelled himself in putting the party back in the limelight.
> 
> Brilliant speech. No wonder the Mail regard him as a threat!


How is he rising? Sorry for being naive by remainers standards. Tim Farron is just a little bit of a faint and dull noise at the back of the Commons chamber in the Houses of Parliament. Have you ever watched PMQ's or the Parliament channel, Tim Farron's party members never show up or if they do they never stay long. He's no opposition nor is Corbyn, they get laughed at and Tim Farron only has at most 9 MP's or less (that shows how much attention I pay the Lib Dems) in his party.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> UK wide rising politician of the year has to be the Lib Dems' Tim Farron. He really has excelled himself in putting the party back in the limelight.
> 
> Brilliant speech. No wonder the Mail regard him as a threat!


Rising? Are you sure, I thought one of your reliable comics reported he was the least performing of all the major leaders, even corbyn polling above him.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> How is he rising? Sorry for being naive by remainers standards. Tim Farron is just a little bit of a faint and dull noise at the back of the Commons chamber in the Houses of Parliament. Have you ever watched PMQ's or the Parliament channel, Tim Farron's party members never show up or if they do they never stay long. He's no opposition nor is Corbyn, they get laughed at and Tim Farron only has at most 9 MP's or less (that shows how much attention I pay the Lib Dems) in his party.





DT said:


> Rising? Are you sure, I thought one of your reliable comics reported he was the least performing of all the major leaders, even corbyn polling above him.


Like him or loath him, you can't say he hasn't put the Lib Dems back on the map in such a short time after their disastrous General Election performance just two years ago.

The way Corbyn is performing I wouldn't be surprised if Labour are relegated to third place in the future if he continues to refuse to stand down.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Like him or loath him, you can't say he hasn't put the Lib Dems back on the map in such a short time after their disastrous General Election performance just two years ago.
> 
> The way Corbyn is performing I wouldn't be surprised if Labour are relegated to third place in the future if he continues to refuse to stand down.


But let's be honest here.
Corbyn has more chance of being elected as PM as Farron has. The chances of both these theories coming to fruition are highly unlikely as they are both not very good at providing an opposition party to the Conservatives.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Can I ask being serious here. How can you trust an expert when they are wrong the majority of the time with there predictions not facts?
> 
> Point to remember: Facts present themselves after an event has happened not before and so called experts base there facts (really they are predictions not facts) on the worst possible outcome but when the event turns out not to have been as bad as they said that so called fact is then downgraded to a prediction. They weren't facts in the first place but just opinions based on theory. They don't know themselves these so called experts who thrive to get attention and then make themselves out to look like plonkers when they get there opinion wrong.


Perhaps I can put it this way.

If you are showing symptoms of illness, who do you go to? For most people with the option, the answer would be 'a doctor' (not THE Doctor, that's a different space-time continuum entirely  ).

Now, does a doctor always know exactly what is wrong with you straight away? No.

Does a doctor always arrive at a correct diagnosis of what is wrong with you? No.

Can two doctors arrive at different conclusions of what is wrong with you from the same evidence? Yes.

Can two doctors arrive at different conclusions of how best to treat you? Yes.

Can they both still be wrong? Yes.

Can a non-medical person reach the correct diagnosis that a doctor misses? Yes.

So why go to the doctor - a so-called 'expert' - in the first place if they can often be wrong? I'd suggest it's not because they are right all the time, but because they stand a greater chance of being right than people who haven't spend the majority of their life studying medicine.

OK, this isn't a perfect analogy, I know that. Far fom it. But the principle works in other fields too. If I want to invest some money, I'll talk to a financial advisor friend of mine as they stand a much better chance of me of knowing what is a good option right now. But I also need to bear in mind that somebody once ran an experiment to build the biggest portfolio of stocks and shares from the same starting point. Taking part were several financial experts, and an ape whose investment decision mechanism consisted of a set of darts and a dartboard - and the ape won. Do I conclude that experts are useless, though? No - just that sometimes random chance is going to beat an educated guess.

Or if I wanted to build an extension, I'm going to ask my next door neighbor to recommend someone to do it for me as he is a very good builder and I'm a computer geek. Likewise, if someone wants their computer cleared of malware or recommendations for a firewall and AV, they're more likely to ask me. Of course, there are dodgy builders and computer people out there, and even good ones can sometimes get it badly wrong, but that isn't going to stop most people having more faith in them than in their own abilities, is it?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Yes Rona, we know the EU has faults.. that's why you are leaving (rather than using the UK's influence to change it). So instead of simply providing what the EU is doing wrong, why not instead show what a great pillar of light the UK government is and how it's any different? Maybe you could show how leaving is going to help those in the UK suffering in poverty, or those who are ill, persecuted through being a "foreigner".


I'm not here to bolster the UK government, they are as corrupt as any but I will point out the ridiculousness of some of the claims and so called facts put forward on here. That's actually from both sides if you bothered to look


----------



## Satori

Odin_cat said:


> I apologise for my ignorance, meaning no offence to her, I wouldn't call her any expert.


No. But useful if you seek a happy medium.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I'm not here to bolster the UK government


You have, you've given them more power by removing ability to hold them to account for things like human rights including workers rights, environmental policies etc. What have you gained?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> You have, you've given them more power by removing ability to hold them to account for things like human rights including workers rights, environmental policies etc. What have you gained?


That's how you see it, I see it as the people having more control. The EU was out of any control, they are a rule unto themselves and trampling all in their wake to the detriment of the majority but very very lucrative to those on the "inside"


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> You have, you've given them more power by removing ability to hold them to account for things like human rights including workers rights, environmental policies etc. What have you gained?


We will gain exactly that, plus more besides.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Perhaps I can put it this way.
> 
> If you are showing symptoms of illness, who do you go to? For most people with the option, the answer would be 'a doctor' (not THE Doctor, that's a different space-time continuum entirely  ).
> 
> Now, does a doctor always know exactly what is wrong with you straight away? No.
> 
> Does a doctor always arrive at a correct diagnosis of what is wrong with you? No.
> 
> Can two doctors arrive at different conclusions of what is wrong with you from the same evidence? Yes.
> 
> Can two doctors arrive at different conclusions of how best to treat you? Yes.
> 
> Can they both still be wrong? Yes.
> 
> Can a non-medical person reach the correct diagnosis that a doctor misses? Yes.
> 
> So why go to the doctor - a so-called 'expert' - in the first place if they can often be wrong? I'd suggest it's not because they are right all the time, but because they stand a greater chance of being right than people who haven't spend the majority of their life studying medicine.
> 
> OK, this isn't a perfect analogy, I know that. Far fom it. But the principle works in other fields too. If I want to invest some money, I'll talk to a financial advisor friend of mine as they stand a much better chance of me of knowing what is a good option right now. But I also need to bear in mind that somebody once ran an experiment to build the biggest portfolio of stocks and shares from the same starting point. Taking part were several financial experts, and an ape whose investment decision mechanism consisted of a set of darts and a dartboard - and the ape won. Do I conclude that experts are useless, though? No - just that sometimes random chance is going to beat an educated guess.
> 
> Or if I wanted to build an extension, I'm going to ask my next door neighbor to recommend someone to do it for me as he is a very good builder and I'm a computer geek. Likewise, if someone wants their computer cleared of malware or recommendations for a firewall and AV, they're more likely to ask me. Of course, there are dodgy builders and computer people out there, and even good ones can sometimes get it badly wrong, but that isn't going to stop most people having more faith in them than in their own abilities, is it?


But like wise so called experts are attention seekers and nothing else. There so called facts are predictions let me explain why:
Facts are based upon events that have happened you cannot fortell a fact as it is none factual in this instance and only a prediction and these predictions are based on theories by the so called experts. So in reality the so called experts are none the wiser to what will happen as they simply don't know themselves. In relation to Brexit no member state has left the EU using article 50 as of yet so in reality there is nothing to compare this to and no evidence to use. So what are so called experts using then? There own opinion is the answer which is a prediction and nothing else because it can't be a fact as this event has not played out or happened in history yet.

So let's go back to the ape with the dart board. Both sides of this debate in reality are the ape as the so called experts are wrong in assuming what will happen. Why? No member state has left the EU yet. Yes Greenland left the EC but that was the EU's predicessor and this happened long before article 50 was dreamt up. Under the current methods of leaving the EU no member state has left as of yet.

Summary
So called experts are not disclosing facts but a merely spouting out there own opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but can't claim it as a fact until that event has happened. In my opinion I would rather trust me and my theories, if they are right they are right if they are wrong they are wrong and I keep them to myself so i don't then look like a plonker in front of the world when I get my theories wrong. So called experts also known as theorists and attention seekers never apologise when they get there so called facts wrong. Have you noticed that? I have.

So who is right and who is wrong over brexit? At the moment no one as the event has not played out yet and entered the history books.

Are there any facts to base Brexit on? No.

So what are called experts facts? 
Scaremongering and scare tactics and lies. Why? Because there is nothing to compare Brexit to as the UK will be the first member state to leave the EU. Only once this is complete will there be facts and information to provide, not before.


----------



## rona

Why should everyone have the same dreams and aspirations, why do they want us all to be subservient clones, how can a few control so many?

Isn't that what communism is about?


----------



## Bisbow

stockwellcat said:


> But like wise so called experts are attention seekers and nothing else. There so called facts are predictions let me explain why:
> Facts are based upon events that have happened you cannot fortell a fact as it is none factual in this instance and only a prediction and these predictions are based on theories by the so called experts. So in reality the so called experts are none the wiser to what will happen as they simply don't know themselves. In relation to Brexit no member state has left the EU using article 50 as of yet so in reality there is nothing to compare this to and no evidence to use. So what are so called experts using then? There own opinion is the answer which is a prediction and nothing else because it can't be a fact as this event has not played out or happened in history yet.
> 
> So let's go back to the ape with the dart board. Both sides of this debate in reality are the ape as the so called experts are wrong in assuming what will happen. Why? No member state has left the EU yet. Yes Greenland left the EC but that was the EU's predicessor and this happened long before article 50 was dreamt up. Under the current methods of leaving the EU no member state has left as of yet.
> 
> Summary
> So called experts are not disclosing facts but a merely spouting out there own opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but can't claim it as a fact until that event has happened. In my opinion I would rather trust me and my theories, if they are right they are right if they are wrong they are wrong and I keep them to myself so i don't then look like a plonker in front of the world when I get my theories wrong. So called experts also known as theorists and attention seekers never apologise when they get there so called facts wrong. Have you noticed that? I have.
> 
> So who is right and who is wrong over brexit? At the moment no one as the event has not played out yet and entered the history books.
> 
> Are there any facts to base Brexit on? No.
> 
> So what are called experts facts?
> Scaremongering and scare tactics and lies. Why? Because there is nothing to compare Brexit to as the UK will be the first member state to leave the EU. Only once this is complete will there be facts and information to provide, not before.


I am breaking a promise to myself by coming back om here but I want to answer you

You know that, I know that and so do all the people who voted out

The ones that don't are the narrow minded remainers who have no imagination and have to rely on "experts" and continually quote pieces from the press and wherever they can find any thing to prove we are fools and idiots, When I see another copied press release printed in huge letters as though shouting at us will be to their benefit I am afraid I have to laugh.
They remind me of kids in the playground shouting about who the winner is, them or us

As you say, time alone will tell but I still think we will be better off out than in


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> You have, you've given them more power by removing ability to hold them to account for things like human rights including workers rights, environmental policies etc. What have you gained?


So you prefer the power to be in the hands of the eu leaders I take!


----------



## 1290423

DT said:


> So you prefer the power to be in the hands of the eu leaders I take!


You may feel we have no power but we are the power.Thats why we are where we are now


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> We will gain exactly that, plus more besides.


So you approve of the common person not being able to hold their government accountable? Good to know. You don't approve of democracy at a higher level. Understandable, the english don't believe that other people are equal after all.. we won the war and had an empire.



stockwellcat said:


> But like wise so called experts are attention seekers and nothing else.


Evidence? How are professors of key institutions nothing more than attention seekers? That is your opinion, not based on facts.



> Are there any facts to base Brexit on? No.


Plenty, you can look at the truth about what the EU is, you can look at the impact the EU has had on the economy, we know what the WTO terms are, we know what the single market is, we know what free movement allows and the advantages it provides, we can look at the reality of the world in terms of how things work, we can look at the legal side of international relationships and make informed decisions. There's loads of facts out there, you simply ignore them as they don't match what you want. Since the referendum we can look at the impact based on what has already happened.

Of course if you want to use your argument then you have to say that the referendum is wrong as there are no facts to allow you to make an informed choice. Why is it then that the public will not be able to make an informed choice when the terms of leaving are known?

Who said it previously I wonder.. we are staying in the European Economic Area (EEA) even when we leave the single market?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So you approve of the common person not being able to hold their government accountable? Good to know. You don't approve of democracy at a higher level. Understandable, the english don't believe that other people are equal after all.. we won the war and had an empire.
> 
> Evidence? How are professors of key institutions nothing more than attention seekers? That is your opinion, not based on facts.
> 
> Plenty, you can look at the truth about what the EU is, you can look at the impact the EU has had on the economy, we know what the WTO terms are, we know what the single market is, we know what free movement allows and the advantages it provides, we can look at the reality of the world in terms of how things work, we can look at the legal side of international relationships and make informed decisions. There's loads of facts out there, you simply ignore them as they don't match what you want. Since the referendum we can look at the impact based on what has already happened.
> 
> Of course if you want to use your argument then you have to say that the referendum is wrong as there are no facts to allow you to make an informed choice. Why is it then that the public will not be able to make an informed choice when the terms of leaving are known?
> 
> Who said it previously I wonder.. we are staying in the European Economic Area (EEA) even when we leave the single market?


You are entitled to believe in what you want to believe in eg so called experts and predictions.

You are entitled to your opinion.

No one is right at this point in time.

Nothing else to say to you....And I am under no obligation to give you an explaination.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> So you prefer the power to be in the hands of the eu leaders I take!


What EU leaders, what power? Even May acknowledges we retained our soveriegnty within the EU. Within the EU rules are made through through a democratic process where we actually have a lot of influence. We are members of NATO and the WTO. We also have to follow their rules. Does that make our sovereignty any less? Difference is WTO is not a democratic process where we actually have a powerful voice.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> You are entitled to believe in what you want to believe in eg so called experts and predictions.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion.


No I believe in facts and they are available. That isn't opinion.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> No I believe in facts and they are available. That isn't opinion.


So you say.

But there is no evidence to use or facts.

*Facts are produced after an event has happened and so is evidence. In this instance there is none as we haven't Brexited yet so the event hasn't happened yet.*

You are free to have your own opinion and believe any predictions there maybe flying around.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So you approve of the common person not being able to hold their government accountable? Good to know. You don't approve of democracy at a higher level. Understandable, the english don't believe that other people are equal after all.. we won the war and had an empire.


Our government is absolutely accountable to every voter in the UK. And yes I want OUR human rights, environmental, employment etc etc policies to be decided upon by OUR government and not answerable to, and overrided by the EU. It's just one of the reasons many of us voted leave.

And why should anyone want them accountable to higher, unelected office?


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Our government is absolutely accountable to every voter in the UK. And yes I want OUR human rights, environmental, employment etc etc policies to be decided upon by OUR government and not answerable to, and overrided by the EU. It's just one of the reasons many of us voted leave.


So tell me, how is the government accountable? Once every 4-5 years when the latest issue is the only thing relevent? Who cares if the government tramples on your rights if nobody else's are? Just what policies have the EU pushed onto us without our consent? By OUR govenment I assume you mean english government as it's been shown scotland/gibraltar and NI don't have a say.

Also.. what unelected office? You elect a government, you elect MEP's even people like Farage to represent you in a democratic system. They are the ones who set rules, although even then the implementation if often left purely to the UK government.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> But there is no evidence to use or facts.


So no facts like what the single market is. No facts like the legal framework for trade deals exist. No facts like the WTO rules. No facts like May is wanting to take us out of the single market and EEA. Strange you have a wierd viewpoint of what makes something fact.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> So you approve of the common person not being able to hold their government accountable? Good to know. You don't approve of democracy at a higher level.


Hey, hang on a minute, isn't it you that wants exactly that? Haven't you been harping on over the past nine months for just that? Banging on that the government should not act FOR the majority vote?
And please spare me that old tune it was none binding! That has been explained to you a multitude of times by a number of people.

I have been looking for a word to describe you for sometime now.

I've finally found it so therefore have no further desire to engage in pointless banter with you!

You are after all a HYPOCRITE.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Hey, hang on a minute, isn't it you that wants exactly that? Haven't you been harping on over the past nine months for just that? Banging on that the government should not act FOR the majority vote?


You've agreed it was non-binding only you ignored that didn't you.

Let's have someone else make some points referencing the government's excuses:



> *1. *Votes cast on the day, on a 72% turn-out, represent a Leave vote of 37% of the total electorate and 26% of the population of the UK. You cannot describe this as 'the country' nor claim that 'the country' voted to leave the EU. I remind you that current Trades Union legislation requires 40% of a total electorate (not merely votes cast) to trigger a strike. The legislation on general elections requires a 66% majority of all members of the House of Commons to trigger an election outside the fixed term of a Parliament. On what conceivable grounds can you describe 37% of the total electorate and 26% of the population as 'the country'? Use of these phrases to describe the sentiment of the UK population on EU membership is, with respect, misleading, and would appear to be deliberately so. It suits 'Brexiters' to speak in this way.
> 
> Secondly, the Government does not have a duty to implement the result of the referendum of 23 June. Briefing Paper 07212, sent to all MPs and Lords on 3 June 2015, in advance of debate on the 2015 Referendum Bill states unequivocally that the referendum is non-binding, advisory and consultative only, and imposes no obligation on the Government to act on its outcome.
> 
> Likewise, the Referendum Act, which the Bill became, contains no clause obligating the Government to act on the outcome of the referendum.
> 
> *2.* You cite the manifesto promise of the Conservative Party in the General Election of 2015 that a referendum would be held on the question of EU membership and that 'the outcome of the referendum would be acted upon.' The Conservative Party and the Government it formed were also committed to continued membership of the EU as a matter of publicly avowed policy on which it was elected, and this was a position made clear to the electorate in the same election campaign. Which aspect of the apparently conflicting policy do you wish to emphasise?
> 
> To assist you, might I point out that the phrase 'outcome of the referendum' is ambiguous. Here is one clear reading: the outcome of the referendum told us that at least a quarter of the British population is ill-informed as to the true nature of the EU, and is anxious about the effects of immigration. One thing the Government could very well do to 'act on the outcome' is to provide more and better information on the great value of EU membership, and to point out, with the relevant empirical facts in hand, that almost all negative comment on immigration is false.
> 
> *3.* You defend the choice of franchise for the referendum, which I criticized on the grounds that it excluded 16-17 year olds, ex-pats who have lived abroad for longer than a certain period, and fellow-EU citizens who make their lives and careers and pay tax here ('no taxation without representation' used to be a principle, once) by saying that the franchise is the same as used for General Elections. The point is that this was not a General Election. This was a referendum. The difference is very great indeed. It is public knowledge that proposals to extend the franchise to 16-17 year olds were contested by those who knew that this would have a material effect in strengthening the Remain vote. In less polite quarters this is known as gerrymandering.
> 
> *4.* You comment on my saying that if a referendum were to be regarded as binding or mandating, it would require a supermajority of the kind you MPs yourselves require for triggering a general election, 66% or so. You avoid this point by merely saying, 'no amendments for such requirements were debated during the passage of the Bill.' No: for the good reason that everyone in the House had been advised that the referendum was 'advisory' and 'consultative' only, imposing no requirement on the Government to act on it.
> 
> *5.* Finally, in a passage which I take it you intend as a light-hearted jest, you write, 'I hope this response reassures you that the Government is committed to restoring the primacy and sovereignty of the UK Parliament as we leave the EU.' If however this is intended as a serious remark, I will restrain myself to the three following comments in conclusion.
> 
> First, earlier in your letter you say, 'The Government's position is clear that invoking Article 50 is a prerogative power…' We have seen that the Chief Justice and his colleagues in the Divisional Court do not agree with the Government on this, and we await the Supreme Court's view too. Should the justices of the Supreme Court concur, you have the delicate irony of a possibility: that of making a further appeal to the European Court of Justice. It will however be a matter of surprise if any panel of justices were to think that the UK Government has a prerogative power which would have enabled it to take the UK out of the EU even without a referendum, and whenever it wished; which is the clear - and absurd - implication of the Government's position.
> 
> The sovereignty of Parliament is connoted in this. As the UK's sovereign body, it has the discretion, the right and the power to choose not to take the 'advice' of the advisory referendum, as not being in the UK's best interests.





> You are after all a HYPOCRITE.


That's funny. Once again you are unable to discuss the issues.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So tell me, how is the government accountable? Once every 4-5 years when the latest issue is the only thing relevent? Who cares if the government tramples on your rights if nobody else's are? Just what policies have the EU pushed onto us without our consent? By OUR govenment I assume you mean english government as it's been shown scotland/gibraltar and NI don't have a say.


Unfortunately there isn't a English government, unlike the other UK countries with their assemblies. It's a disadvantage we are aware of but don't bang on about all the time. Or perhaps we are just happy to be part of the UK as a whole, does make us somewhat unique.

I don't think you understand that the referendum was a UK referendum, not regional. It was simply one person one vote for the UK. Quite simple really.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> You've agreed it was non-binding only you ignored that didn't you.
> 
> Let's have someone else make some points referencing the government's excuses:
> 
> That's funny. Once again you are unable to discuss the issues.


I thought it was fact you preferred to discuss. Or rather should that be the facts that suit you?

Ill give you a fact, one you can seek out your own supporting evidence if you so desire!

Fact is the majority that bothered to vote voted to LEAVE the eu and that is exactly what we are doing!


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Unfortunately there isn't a English government, unlike the other UK countries with their assemblies. It's a disadvantage we are aware of but don't bang on about all the time. Or perhaps we are just happy to be part of the UK as a whole, does make us somewhat unique.


UK government is the english government with powers over the other assemblies.



DT said:


> Fact is the majority that bothered to vote voted to LEAVE the eu and that is exactly what we are doing!


So back to "we won the opinion poll" on 37% of the electorate and 26% of the population. Shame that's all you can fall back to isn't it.


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> So back to "we won the opinion poll" on 37% of the electorate and 26% of the population. Shame that's all you can fall back to isn't it.


When are you going to get it in your thick head it was a REFERENDUM ,

And if some could not be bothered to vote that is up to them but those that did most voted for out

FACTS since you are so worried about facts


----------



## stockwellcat.

UK and EU MEPs have just passed the red lines for the Brexit negotiations and the Brexit negotiation plan and have agreed on a three year transitional period to be approved by the ECJ.



> transitional arrangements should be time-limited to three years and be enforced by the EU's Court of Justice


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/39501876


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> So back to "we won the opinion poll" on 37% of the electorate and 26% of the population. Shame that's all you can fall back to isn't it.


Over and over the same ground, whether the act that stated it was for a non binding referendum is binding or not, can you please show me evidence to support that the actual referendum , and this is the important part, were advisory or non binding. The actual referendum we were told plain and simple it was a once on a lifetime vote, we we told on numerous occassions that if the public voted to leave we would do exactly that! Plain and simple in or out , why they even changed the voting form remain or leave to avoid any confusion. No one, to my knowledge even hinted that the referendum was to be an opinion poll, a game if you like, can you imagine the stink that had been kicked up from both sides if they had.
Get over it.
Really don't want to offend you but really cannot respond to your drivel any longer,


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> UK government is the english government with powers over the other assemblies.


No it's not.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> When are you going to get it in your thick head it was a REFERENDUM


In the UK a referendum is an opinion poll. It's not binding to the government and is used to get the public's opinion on something.

That's a fact as well, one you seem to ignore.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> In the UK a referendum is an opinion poll. It's not binding to the government and is used to get the public's opinion on something.
> 
> That's a fact as well, one you seem to ignore.


That's your interpretation.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> In the UK a referendum is an opinion poll. It's not binding to the government and is used to get the public's opinion on something.
> 
> That's a fact as well, one you seem to ignore.


You sure?

referendum
ˌrɛfəˈrɛndəm/
_noun_

a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision.
synonyms: public vote, plebiscite, popular vote, ballot, poll


----------



## 1290423

Note the word decision
And I don't think decision means we'll think about it


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> But like wise so called experts are attention seekers and nothing else. There so called facts are predictions let me explain why:
> Facts are based upon events that have happened you cannot fortell a fact as it is none factual in this instance and only a prediction and these predictions are based on theories by the so called experts. So in reality the so called experts are none the wiser to what will happen as they simply don't know themselves. In relation to Brexit no member state has left the EU using article 50 as of yet so in reality there is nothing to compare this to and no evidence to use. So what are so called experts using then? There own opinion is the answer which is a prediction and nothing else because it can't be a fact as this event has not played out or happened in history yet.
> 
> So let's go back to the ape with the dart board. Both sides of this debate in reality are the ape as the so called experts are wrong in assuming what will happen. Why? No member state has left the EU yet. Yes Greenland left the EC but that was the EU's predicessor and this happened long before article 50 was dreamt up. Under the current methods of leaving the EU no member state has left as of yet.
> 
> Summary
> So called experts are not disclosing facts but a merely spouting out there own opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but can't claim it as a fact until that event has happened. In my opinion I would rather trust me and my theories, if they are right they are right if they are wrong they are wrong and I keep them to myself so i don't then look like a plonker in front of the world when I get my theories wrong. So called experts also known as theorists and attention seekers never apologise when they get there so called facts wrong. Have you noticed that? I have.
> 
> So who is right and who is wrong over brexit? At the moment no one as the event has not played out yet and entered the history books.
> 
> Are there any facts to base Brexit on? No.
> 
> So what are called experts facts?
> Scaremongering and scare tactics and lies. Why? Because there is nothing to compare Brexit to as the UK will be the first member state to leave the EU. Only once this is complete will there be facts and information to provide, not before.


Oh, you don't need to explain such basics to me. We did an awful lot of CB, CTP and associated psychology as part of NLP at uni... 

You do appear to have missed the point somewhat, sorry, which was that people listen to experts even in situations the experts haven't encountered before because they have specialist knowledge that makes their opinions more likely to be accurate. Not guaranteed, of course, but in terms of probability then in their area of expertise they stand a better percentage chance of being in the correct ballpark than your average person.

Incidentally, I also disapprove of 'experts' who claim absolute certainty on things that are impossible to know. Although, you can often lay the blame for that particular trend at the door of the tabloids and the politicians, who have become prone to leaving out key qualifiers and quantifiers when referring to predictions of potential outcomes that have been made by specialists.

However, just because no-one has encountered a specific scenario before, it doesn't mean that people can't use past experience and/or specialist knowledge to make an educated guess at an outcome. Nor does it mean that there aren't some semi-knowns. A good example of that is the Customs Union - IF we do leave that as well as the EU, then unless a separate agreement is reached with the EU for access to the Single Market (a la Norway) we will be returning to the old pre-Customs Union way of handling imports and exports, yes? History tells us that the old way was slow, costly and prone to delays and exploitation (so, are we allowed to call that a fact?). We'd also need to fund, build and staff a whole lot of infrastructure to handle customs screening.

Now, there are a couple of big IFs in that - IF we leave the Customs Union, and IF we can't reach a separate agreement on access to the Single Market. Right now (providing I've managed to keep up with all the political hot air), the announced plan is that Leave means Leave, Brexit means Brexit, and that means leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market too. As access to the Single Market from outside the EU requires accepting free movement of people too, plus abiding by EU legislation and also paying the EU for that access, then currently that option is a lower probablility outcome.

On the other hand, IF we do end up on the Norway model, then we have them to look at as a real life example of what is involved. I'll admit I'm not too read up on it, but aside from the complying with EU standards and regulations, the payment and the freedom of movement, you also have to go through extra internal beaurocracy to prove that your goods are from Norway. So basically what we have now plus more paperwork, simplistically speaking.

Now of course none of us have a crystal ball, and statistical/evidenciary analysis and projection isn't perfect. But in non-sensationalist form (and there are plenty of experts out there offering practical, well reasoned analysis, although these are less likely to make headlines, of course) it is useful for providing a general picture of the more likely potential outcomes.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Over and over the same ground, whether the act that stated it was for a non binding referendum is binding or not, can you please show me evidence to support that the actual referendum , and this is the important part, were advisory or non binding.


Again? http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7212/CBP-7212.pdf

I'll quote it directly so you don't have to download it:


> 5. Types of referendum
> This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK's continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. *It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum*, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which *enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions*. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum should be held are set out in its constitution.
> 
> In contrast, the legislation which provided for the referendum held on AV in May 2011 would have implemented the new system of voting without further legislation, provided that the boundary changes also provided for in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituency Act 2011 were also implemented. In the event, there was a substantial majority against any change. The 1975 referendum was held after the re-negotiated terms of the UK's EC membership had been agreed by all EC Member States and the terms set out in a command paper and agreed by both Houses.64


Highlight is my own.

Your turn, maybe other than what politicians said (350million to the NHS) where's your proof it was anything else?



stockwellcat said:


> That's your interpretation.


There in black and white from the parliament's own site.


----------



## Goblin

Okay Stockwellcat.. you base your argument of the idea that nobody knows the future. Why don't you listen to May explain her viewpoint when it's not about the EU referendum again:






Key point at 1:08

So why is she supporting a referendum result where you say you did not have that information? Also why does she refuse you and the population at large any say when you could potentially have more of that information?


----------



## DoodlesRule

Goblin said:


> So you approve of the common person not being able to hold their government accountable? Good to know. You don't approve of democracy at a higher level. Understandable, the english don't believe that other people are equal after all.. we won the war and had an empire.
> 
> Evidence? How are professors of key institutions nothing more than attention seekers? That is your opinion, not based on facts.
> 
> Plenty, you can look at the truth about what the EU is, you can look at the impact the EU has had on the economy, we know what the WTO terms are, we know what the single market is, we know what free movement allows and the advantages it provides, we can look at the reality of the world in terms of how things work, we can look at the legal side of international relationships and make informed decisions. There's loads of facts out there, you simply ignore them as they don't match what you want. Since the referendum we can look at the impact based on what has already happened.
> 
> Of course if you want to use your argument then you have to say that the referendum is wrong as there are no facts to allow you to make an informed choice. Why is it then that the public will not be able to make an informed choice when the terms of leaving are known?
> 
> Who said it previously I wonder.. we are staying in the European Economic Area (EEA) even when we leave the single market?


The electorate have held the government to account though haven't they - the majority of MP's across all parties wanted to remain in the EU, the electorate said no. You obviously don't approve of democracy on any level banging on about the referendum not being binding - presumably you would be happy for it to be binding had the result been the other way!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Okay Stockwellcat.. you base your argument of the idea that nobody knows the future. Why don't you listen to May explain her viewpoint when it's not about the EU referendum again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Key point at 1:08
> 
> So why is she supporting a referendum result where you say you did not have that information? Also why does she refuse you and the population at large any say when you could potentially have more of that information?


Theresa May is right though isn't she. You just don't like it.

By the way can I correct you without an arguement:
1) Westminster houses the UK Government that Governs devolved areas like Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland and have the final say on matters relating to referendas. England do not have its own devolved assembly or Government. The UK government is made up of MP's and peers from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and England who do get a say in the UK Parliament and these matters are votes on so it is rubbish the devolved areas don't get a say.
2) Every aspect of the Referendum was voted on. That is called democracy.
3) Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Gibraltar and England got there say in the Referendum.
4) Both houses of Parliament got to vote on the Referendum bill as it transitioned through Parliament. Again Democracy in action.
5) Both houses of Parliament voted on the Brexit Bill and voted against any Amendments. Again Democracy in action.
6) Both houses of parliament and the supreme court (the highest court in the UK) agreed the outcome of the referendum must be respected.
7) The supreme court said it cannot interfere with politics and therefore it was up to the Government if it decided to implement what the people of the UK voted for.
8) Theresa May has not ruled out a second Scottish Referendum. She said now is not the time for a second Scottish Referendum. So they will have to wait.
9) Theresa May has told Northern Ireland they cannot have a border poll right now either.
10) Northern Ireland are running out of time to form a new assembly (Tuesday next week is the final deadline) before it goes back to direct rule from Westminster.
11) The UK as a whole is leaving the EU.

It is you that cannot accept the result of the Referendum even though you keep declaring that you do.


----------



## Bisbow

If the referendum is not binding why are all the remainers bleating about the next Scottish referendum not being allowed if it is not binding the Scots don't need one if it can be ignored if it does not go NS's way


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Again? http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7212/CBP-7212.pdf
> 
> I'll quote it directly so you don't have to download it:
> 
> Highlight is my own.
> 
> Your turn, maybe other than what politicians said (350million to the NHS) where's your proof it was anything else?
> 
> There in black and white from the parliament's own site.


They refers to the bill to allow the referendum,
A referendum was used to


DoodlesRule said:


> The electorate have held the government to account though haven't they - the majority of MP's across all parties wanted to remain in the EU, the electorate said no. You obviously don't approve of democracy on any level banging on about the referendum not being binding - presumably you would be happy for it to be binding had the result been the other way!


Totally accurate, no so called experts required, no biased news reporting, no forum know hows, just the gods honest truth pure and simple
Thank you
Nothing more to add really apart from to goblin, you are making yourself out to be a right pillock which I am sure you are not, maybe its time to drop this binding v non binding old chestnut.


----------



## Goblin

DoodlesRule said:


> The electorate have held the government to account though haven't they - the majority of MP's across all parties wanted to remain in the EU, the electorate said no. You obviously don't approve of democracy on any level banging on about the referendum not being binding - presumably you would be happy for it to be binding had the result been the other way!


Valid point and was wondering when someone would bring it up. It was forced through parliament and the lords due to whips and the fact there is no effective opposition. You'll find on other topics I've been critical of whips within the government. So how do we call the government to account again for bowing to the demands of 27% of the population who do not know what they actually voted for? For bowing to an opinion poll even when their local constituents voted to remain? One unelected PM (in as everyone else dropped out) deciding and enforcing a policy which will harm the UK.

Why is it that people are concerned about things like worker's rights, environmental policies etc after we leave the EU and it's all placed only in the hands of the government? Why is it that people are concerned about the government and it's accountability?

If it was binding the other way, campaigning to leave would continue. We've had 20+ years of lies about the EU, that wouldn't stop. Most important, the decision would have been reversible. Once we do actually leave, we leave many of the perks we have currently behind even if we rejoined.



stockwellcat said:


> Theresa May is right though isn't she.


She is.. the EU referendum should never have been.



> 1) Westminster houses the UK Government. England does not have its own devolved Government.


Correct, it's covers England and dictates what other parts can and cannot do.



> Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Gibraltar and England got there say in the Referendum.


To be ignored.



> 6) Both houses of parliament and the supreme court (the highest court in the UK) agreed the outcome of the referendum must be respected.


You must have read the supreme court judgement differently. May couldn't use royal perogative as the referendum was advisory. Your point is the argument May used which was rejected twice.



> 8) Theresa May has not ruled out a second Scottish Referendum. She said now is not the time for a second Scottish Referendum. So they will have to wait.


Which means Scotland isn't free to make it's own decision. It's dictated to.



> 9) Theresa May has told Northern Ireland they cannot have a border poll right now either.


Oh I see a pattern here. The english are dictating what can happen and when.



> It is you that cannot accept the result of the Referendum even though you keep declaring that you do.


I've accepted that the referendum happened and that only 27% of the population voted to leave even though they cannot agree on what it means or show understanding of the implications. Your EEA statement demonstrates that. I do not agree is a mandate to harm the country. Just as if the referendum never happened and parliament decided all on it's own to leave, I would be against it an campaign against it.



Bisbow said:


> If the referendum is not binding why are all the remainers bleating about the next Scottish referendum not being allowed if it is not binding the Scots don't need one if it can be ignored if it does not go NS's way


You are right.. NS having a non-binding independence referendum is just as binding as the EU referendum. For May to stop it and say they wouldn't have a mandate is hypocritical.[/quote][/quote]


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Valid point and was wondering when someone would bring it up. It was forced through parliament and the lords due to whips and the fact there is no effective opposition. You'll find on other topics I've been critical of whips within the government. So how do we call the government to account again for bowing to the demands of 27% of the population who do not know what they actually voted for? For bowing to an opinion poll even when their local constituents voted to remain? One unelected PM (in as everyone else dropped out) deciding and enforcing a policy which will harm the UK.
> 
> Why is it that people are concerned about things like worker's rights, environmental policies etc after we leave the EU and it's all placed only in the hands of the government? Why is it that people are concerned about the government and it's accountability?
> 
> If it was binding the other way, campaigning to leave would continue. We've had 20+ years of lies about the EU, that wouldn't stop. Most important, the decision would have been reversible. Once we do actually leave, we leave many of the perks we have currently behind even if we rejoined.
> 
> She is.. the EU referendum should never have been.
> 
> Correct, it's covers England and dictates what other parts can and cannot do.
> 
> To be ignored.
> 
> You must have read the supreme court judgement differently. May couldn't use royal perogative as the referendum was advisory. Your point is the argument May used which was rejected twice.
> 
> Which means Scotland isn't free to make it's own decision. It's dictated to.


You're obviously not prepared to read the truth. So without me getting wound up let's leave it there.


----------



## 1290423

Just out of curiosity
Looking at this through goblins eyes

If the eu referendum is not binding

How come the scottish referendum was


----------



## Goblin

Truth is what is real. Are you saying that May isn't telling and setting policy for Gibraltar, NI and scotland for example?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Just out of curiosity
> Looking at this through goblins eyes
> 
> If the eu referendum is not binding
> 
> How come the scottish referendum was


----------



## cheekyscrip

EU lawmakers just rejected amendments about Gibraltar as unimportant.

Spain decided not to allow to cross the frontier using EU ID as they decided not to recognise it any more.
As from now. My niece just landed in Malaga and cannot get home.
@Goblin are we still in EU?
Did we vanish overnight?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> You're obviously not prepared to read the truth. So without me getting wound up let's leave it there.


To which specific 'truth' are you referring, there are a few options considering the post you are quoting?


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Just out of curiosity
> Looking at this through goblins eyes
> 
> If the eu referendum is not binding
> 
> How come the scottish referendum was


It wouldn't be but by May's logic it would be. One or the other. I do not agree that Scotland should leave, I do not want a break up of the union but as mentioned before in this thread, for leavers to push they shouldn't be allowed is hypocritical.

Edit: sorry you mean the previous scottish referendum.. It was binding just as the EU one could have been if it was made that way. Just as the previous one was made binding.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Truth is what is real. Are you saying that May isn't telling and setting policy for Gibraltar, NI and scotland for example?


No! Truth is you have run out of road, you have no reason to argue and no reasonable arguement to offer, 
Regarding may ,we will just have to wait and see what she comes up with , all of us,


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> It wouldn't be but by May's logic it would be. One or the other. I do not agree that Scotland should leave, I do not want a break up of the union but as mentioned before in this thread, for leavers to push they shouldn't be allowed is hypocritical.


But you do want Scotland to leave the UK and isolate themselves. You do want maximum damage. Your egging it on but you don't realise you are. Scotland is owned by the UK and therefore it is up to the UK Government what happens.

This is getting pointless because yet again we are going around in circles.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> But you do want Scotland to leave the UK and isolate themselves. You do want maximum damage. Your egging it on but you don't realise you are. *Scotland is owned by the UK* and therefore it is up to the UK Government what happens.
> 
> This is getting pointless because yet again we are going around in circles.


Speaking as a quarter Scot, I can tell you _just_ how well _that _kind of comment goes down with the natives...


----------



## Bisbow

DT said:


> Just out of curiosity
> Looking at this through goblins eyes
> 
> If the eu referendum is not binding
> 
> How come the scottish referendum was


My point exactly, I see no one has answered my posts
Is it because they have no reply or is a Scottish referendum is valid but ours wasn't


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> @Goblin are we still in EU?


Certainly hope so unless negotiations have failed. Does this mean germans can no longer go through the border I wonder who normally only use their national ID cards, not a passport? Would love to see my wife and I try to both get through to see the result. Don't know enough about EU ID, I assume it's similar to the german identity cards. I would hope the EU steps in immediately.



stockwellcat said:


> But you do want Scotland to leave the UK and isolate themselves. You do want maximum damage. Your egging it on but you don't realise you are. Scotland is owned by the UK and therefore it is up to the UK Government what happens.


Actually look through the posts, I have consistently said I believe in the union and that scotland should not leave, not least because it couldn't support itself. I believe Scotland would harm itself much like the Uk is doing leaving the EU. I am consitent. Want to do maximum damage, well that is leaving the EU along with the single market and EEA which I've consistently pushed against. So the UK owns scotland.. interestingly phrased.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Valid point and was wondering when someone would bring it up.


Ya bastard, I'm sat in the car having a ten minute break and just sprayed my windscreen with coke and nearly choked to death.

Why, that's classic Mr Mainwairing from Dad's Army. Still very funny.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Speaking as a quarter Scot, I can tell you _just_ how well _that _kind of comment goes down with the natives...


So who do you think owns Scotland?
They have a devolved Government yes I agree. This isn't a fully powered Government. The UK Government and UK Parliament have powers over devolved areas of the UK. Scotland are not, repeat not an independent country.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> My point exactly, I see no one has answered my posts
> Is it because they have no reply or is a Scottish referendum is valid but ours wasn't


Actually has been answered. Referendums can be made legally binding from the outset, the EU referendum wasn't. Another Scottish referendum would not be legally binding either.. hasn't stopped May has it when it comes to the EU referendum from pretending otherwise.


----------



## suewhite

All this debating surely is to late? I speak to a lot of people who wanted to remain in the EU (I voted Brexit) and if they had got there backsides out and voted maybe it would be a different debate, why those people are now bemoaning there lot is beyond me, I do have to say I find a lot of the guys on here that voted remain very dogmatic and at time's quite insulting the way they talk down to those of us that voted to leave.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> EU lawmakers just rejected amendments about Gibraltar as unimportant.
> 
> Spain decided not to allow to cross the frontier using EU ID as they decided not to recognise it any more.
> As from now. My niece just landed in Malaga and cannot get home.
> @Goblin are we still in EU?
> Did we vanish overnight?


Who said that? :Watching:Watching
Only joking @cheekyscrip

How nasty are the Spanish :Rage

So this is how petty the EU are going to be are they? Well it is them that are being nasty by the looks of things because a member state wants to leave the EU.

Would you want to join a club that teats its members like this if they want to leave?

I am glad we are leaving this club of petty minded people.

Yes @cheekyscrip you are still in the EU until the day Brexit officially happens. Take them to the ECJ as you still have EU rights.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> UK government is the english government with powers over the other assemblies.


I think you are mistaking it for the EU.
Scottish MPs and Welsh MPs and NI MPs can/could if they want to, sit in Westminster and vote, but 
English MPs are not given the same rights


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> So who do you think owns Scotland?
> They have a devolved Government yes I agree. This isn't a fully powered Government. The UK Government and UK Parliament have powers over devolved areas of the UK. Scotland are not, repeat not an independent country.


But they are not owned. England does not own Scotland and never has. If anything it's the other way round, as when Elizabeth died heirless in 1603, the English Parliament offered the English Crown to the King of Scotland, James VI. He took over the English throne and became King James I of England, a Scottish king ruling England.

In 1707 Scotland and England united their parliments and became The United Kingdom of Great Britain. Wales, on the other hand, WAS technically 'owned' by England at the time, which is one of the reasons it doesn't appear on the flag of union.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> But they are not owned. England does not own Scotland and never has. If anything it's the other way round, as when Elizabeth died heirless in 1603, the English Parliament offered the English Crown to the King of Scotland, James VI. He took over the English throne and became King James I of England, a Scottish king ruling England.
> 
> In 1707 Scotland and England united their parliments and became The United Kingdom of Great Britain. Wales, on the other hand, WAS technically 'owned' by England at the time, which is one of the reasons it doesn't appear on the flag of union.


History lesson.
I suppose that's only fair seeing as Theresa May intends on using laws from Henry the 5th or 8th's time to put through the Great Repeal Bill


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I think you are mistaking it for the EU.


What where UK MEP's have a say in say what happens and effects only malta through democracy as malta only has 6 votes to the UK's 73. Nope, nothing like it.



> Scottish MPs and Welsh MPs and NI MPs can/could if they want to, sit in Westminster and vote, but
> English MPs are not given the same rights


Correct me if I am wrong, I could well be, but I believe scottish MP's may not vote on things affected england only. Know there were so many promises flying around after the last scottish referendum I lost track of which were implemented.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh dear. Time is running for Northern Ireland (The 18th April 2017 is the deadline date to form a power sharing Government otherwise emergency powers will be invoked in the UK Parliament if this isn't resolved and powers defaulted back to Westminster) to form a power sharing Government:

*Sinn Fein: No significant progress in Stormont crisis talks*
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/new...ogress-in-stormont-crisis-talks-35596302.html

The House of Commons are currently in Easter recess so this needs to be sorted before The House of Commons sits again on the 18th April 2017.
http://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-commons-faqs/business-faq-page/recess-dates/


----------



## Goblin

suewhite said:


> All this debating surely is to late? I speak to a lot of people who wanted to remain in the EU (I voted Brexit)


No, not too late. Even today EU acknowledged this.



> _A revocation of notification needs to be subject to conditions set by all EU-27, so that it cannot be used as a procedural device or abused in an attempt to improve on the current terms of the United Kingdom's membership;_


So in otherwords, we can't bribe the EU to give us a better deal than we already have and it would have to be agreed by all members.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...cabinet-office-brexit-sabotaged-a7669181.html
























Been promising to reduce immigration since Home Secretary. Didn't work.....

Then the, "Go home or face arrest vans.

.Now, still the promises of reducing immigration worth sacrificing the free market etc. for......


----------



## stockwellcat.

When I looked at Petforums General Chat this morning I breathed a sigh of relief thinking yes this thread has almost dropped off the front page as it was at the bottom of the page. Then @KittenKong revives it with a news article from the Independent.

I don't understand why you decided to do this as there is going to ups and downs as the Brexit negotiations progress so do we need constant news articles to be published at every turn when it can be watched on the TV or heard on the radio a thousand times a day on repeat?

Oh well this thread is back at the top of general chat again :Bored


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> When I looked at Petforums General Chat this morning I breathed a sigh of relief thinking yes this thread has almost dropped off the front page as it was at the bottom of the page. Then @KittenKong revives it with a news article from the Independent.
> 
> I don't understand why you decided to do this as there is going to ups and downs as the Brexit negotiations progress so do we need constant news articles to be published at every turn when it can be watched on the TV or heard on the radio a thousand times a day on repeat?
> 
> *Oh well this thread is back at the top of general chat again* :Bored


And quite right too. Given that this is likely to be one of the biggest things to happen to this country in our lifetime, I'd be more worried if people _weren't_ interested in discussing it.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Oh well this thread is back at the top of general chat again :Bored


Good thing about a forum, you don't have to read a thread.

Personally I also think that it is important. A minority of the population, who do not know what they voted for are intent on damaging the UK and the government is pushing to do so. This is important not just for those alive now, but for those who follow.


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> Good thing about a forum, you don't have to read a thread.
> 
> Personally I also think that it is important. A minority of the population, who do not know what they voted for are intent on damaging the UK and the government is pushing to do so. This is important not just for those alive now, but for those who follow.


Of course we know what we voted for, and would do again and again and again
And yet again all we get is second hand news copied from a newspaper, still no independent thoughts


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> Of course we know what we voted for, and would do again and again and again


So you know exactly what terms May is going to end up having to accept through the negotiations then. Can you please tell us as I cannot see into the future. I based my decision on the facts of what the EU is and does for the UK at the current time.

Edit:


Bisbow said:


> And yet again all we get is second hand news copied from a newspaper, still no independent thoughts


Believe remainers have stated why they voted quite clearly and the facts behind that reasoning unlike those who voted leave.


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> So you know exactly what terms May is going to end up having to accept through the negotiations then. Can you please tell us as I cannot see into the future. I based my decision on the facts of what the EU is and does for the UK at the current time.


Now you are being stupid

I don't know any more than you do but whatever it is it will be better than being led by the nose because someone in Brussels says do this or that
We will all end up like robots if they get their way and have to agree to everything they say or want, they say jump and we say how high

Not for me or mine thank you


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Good thing about a forum, you don't have to read a thread.
> 
> Personally I also think that it is important. A minority of the population, who do not know what they voted for are intent on damaging the UK and the government is pushing to do so. This is important not just for those alive now, but for those who follow.


Another words you just want to keep repeating yourself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again not really achieving anything. No one has or will learn anything from the constant moaning from those remainers that want to moan except that you object to Brexit and the will of the people declaring facts that aren't really facts but just people's opinion as no one not even you know at the moment what Brexit means as the negotiations have not concluded yet let alone started.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So you know exactly what terms May is going to end up having to accept through the negotiations then. Can you please tell us as I cannot see into the future. I based my decision on the facts of what the EU is and does for the UK at the current time.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Believe remainers have stated why they voted quite clearly and the facts behind that reasoning unlike those who voted leave.


For the very last time, WE VOTED TO FULLY LEAVE THE EU, ANY CONCESSIONS MRS MAY NEGOTIATES ARE A BONUS.

I'm outta here.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> I don't know any more than you do but whatever it is it will be better than being led by the nose because someone in Brussels says do this or that
> We will all end up like robots if they get their way and have to agree to everything they say or want, they say jump and we say how high


So that's your view of democracy. Interesting.



Dr Pepper said:


> For the very last time, WE VOTED TO FULLY LEAVE THE EU, ANY CONCESSIONS MRS MAY NEGOTIATES ARE A BONUS.


Strange how so many leavers stated differentely before and after the referendum and how many say leaving is such a fashion is the wrong thing to do even now then. Leaving the EU apparantly means we are still in the EEA for some. Wonder if you can define fully leave the EU.


----------



## suewhite

Goblin said:


> So you know exactly what terms May is going to end up having to accept through the negotiations then. Can you please tell us as I cannot see into the future. I based my decision on the facts of what the EU is and does for the UK at the current time.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Believe remainers have stated why they voted quite clearly and the facts behind that reasoning unlike those who voted leave.


So do we know what the EU will be like in 5years no of cause we don't as you said we cant see into the future.


----------



## Goblin

suewhite said:


> So do we know what the EU will be like in 5years no of cause we don't as you said we cant see into the future.


So did you vote based on where the EU could possibly be in 5 years time?

We do know that the UK had a large influence in the direction of the EU and how it would develop in the future. We do know that in it a lot of areas which could be negative towards the UK interests we had a veto. We do know that experts are almost unaminously united against leaving the EU as it will gain little if anything in comparison. By the majority I'm not talking a mere 37%. We do know that the country has already been negatively affected. We do know the NHS will not get 350million a week. We do know the the NHS is suffering from immigrants leaving. We know UK science is being negatively affected. We know funding to replace EU money is not available in many areas.


----------



## Bisbow

You know, there are many hands I would like to shake on this thread, you know who you are

As for the others, well I will leave that to those of us with imagination and not closed, brainwashed minds


----------



## suewhite

Goblin said:


> So did you vote based on where the EU could possibly be in 5 years time?
> 
> We do know that the UK had a large influence in the direction of the EU and how it would develop in the future. We do know that in it a lot of areas which could be negative towards the UK interests we had a veto. We do know that experts are almost unaminously united against leaving the EU as it will gain little if anything in comparison. By the majority I'm not talking a mere 37%. We do know that the country has already been negatively affected. We do know the NHS will not get 350million a week. We do know the the NHS is suffering from immigrants leaving. We know UK science is being negatively affected. We know funding to replace EU money is not available in many areas.


No! I voted on reading and listening to debates from both sides, I only asked how do we know where the EU will be in 5years as some people seem to be able to tell me where we will be now that we are leaving.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> So did you vote based on where the EU could possibly be in 5 years time?


That was one of the many reasons a lot of us voted out, we didn't like what we were witnessing happening within the EU, but could only guess at how bad it would/could get

Do you know that we may now be able to stop the export of live animals for slaughter which we couldn't under the EU?
If so, that's going to be a huge positive result....................


----------



## 1290423

l.



Goblin said:


> So did you vote based on where the EU could possibly be in 5 years time?
> 
> We do know that the UK had a large influence in the direction of the EU and how it would develop in the future. We do know that in it a lot of areas which could be negative towards the UK interests we had a veto. We do know that experts are almost unaminously united against leaving the EU as it will gain little if anything in comparison. By the majority I'm not talking a mere 37%. We do know that the country has already been negatively affected. We do know the NHS will not get 350million a week. We do know the the NHS is suffering from immigrants leaving. We know UK science is being negatively affected. We know funding to replace EU money is not available in many areas.


Bliddy hell, you know a lot don't you![/QUOTE]


----------



## Happy Paws2

suewhite said:


> All this debating surely is to late? I speak to a lot of people who wanted to remain in the EU (I voted Brexit) and if they had got there backsides out and voted maybe it would be a different debate, why those people are now bemoaning there lot is beyond me,* I do have to say I find a lot of the guys on here that voted remain very dogmatic and at time's quite insulting the way they talk down to those of us that voted to leave*.


May I say it works both ways, some of you Leavers have been just as rude and nasty, some of them that nasty I've put them on ignore.


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> May I say it works both ways, some of you Leavers have been just as rude and nasty, some of them that nasty I've put them on ignore.


Yep! Can't fault you for that, I've put a few on ignore to, but for a different reason, I don't mind being call names especially as it's a faceless person doing the calling, tit for tat hurts no one.


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws said:


> May I say it works both ways, some of you Leavers have been just as rude and nasty, some of them that nasty I've put them on ignore.


I'd have to concur with this, I've tried my best to remain civil at all times and I apologise if others haven't seen it that way, but there has been a similar degree of mudslinging and namecalling from some parties on boths sides, sadly. Which is sad, as it discourages sensible debate.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> I'd have to concur with this, I've tried my best to remain civil at all times and I apologise if others haven't seen it that way, but there has been a similar degree of mudslinging and namecalling from some parties on boths sides, sadly. Which is sad, as it discourages sensible debate.


I agree, but I think the problem is, its just going round in circles with nothing very new to say, so it's getting nasty instead.


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws said:


> I agree, but I think the problem is, its just going round in circles with nothing very new to say, so it's getting nasty instead.


It's still no reason to be rude. My old English teacher used to say things like if you needed to swear to make a point you didn't have a good enough grasp of the English language, and if you needed to belittle or insult, you didn't have a point full stop. I still use that as a yardstick for evaluating arguments presented in a debate


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> That was one of the many reasons a lot of us voted out, we didn't like what we were witnessing happening within the EU, but could only guess at how bad it would/could get


What like make things worse for the UK. Like losing a voice in the EU? So tell me, what did you imagine.. an EU army.. UK veto. Federalisation.. UK veto.. More bailouts.. UK veto. How is leaving going to improve things?



> Do you know that we may now be able to stop the export of live animals for slaughter which we couldn't under the EU?
> If so, that's going to be a huge positive result....................


So leaving the EU we can define everything is your argument. Afraid not, we still have rules to follow which we don't have a say in. You are aware of WTO rules aren't you. Pesky things the UK is bound to follow. WTO rules also include rules for the free movement of trade. If the UK attempts to ban live exports, such a trade restriction is likely to be overruled by the WTO. The WTO already prohibits the EU from banning imports of eggs from barren battery cages although this practice is banned within the EU itself.

You're also putting a lot of faith in a government which appears to do the opposite of what you are asking:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...nment-planning-to-repeal-animal-welfare-codes

So tell me are you suggesting we also abandon organisations like the WTO where we don't have a voice to influence policy? We do have a voice to make conditions better for animals within the EU.


----------



## 1290423

@rona 
Rona, I am a member of the AWP but have to admit I have not read their bumf lately, despite just renevewing my membership, I know when I first joined the issue of live exports for slaughter were a hot topic.

The have been calls now we are leaving the eu to ban it, I'm with you 100 pet cent on this one.

Anyway, found this, not read it, interested what you make of it
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06504/SN06504.pdf


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> What like make things worse for the UK. Like losing a voice in the EU? So tell me, what did you imagine.. an EU army.. UK veto. Federalisation.. UK veto.. More bailouts.. UK veto. How is leaving going to improve things?
> 
> So leaving the EU we can define everything is your argument. EU.


If people hadn't felt that the EU was not working for us they would never have voted to leave in the first place.
But you are right about everything aren't you? You know it all!


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> If people hadn't felt that the EU was not working for us they would never have voted to leave in the first place.


Doesn't help the fact that they have been lied to does it by the leave campaign.



> But you are right about everything aren't you? You know it all!


First to admit I don't know everything. Quite happy to be shown where I am wrong using evidence. You don't seem to be able to provide it though do you prefering snarky comments.


----------



## Bisbow

But of course the remain camp was as pure as newly fallen snow, wasn't it

I don't think so


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/06/ryanair-uk-flights-brexit-deal-wto


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/06/ryanair-uk-flights-brexit-deal-wto
> 
> View attachment 305605
> View attachment 305606


Well they'll be paying to fly through UK airspace from Ireland. Didn't think of that did they when they threw there hissy fit.

Nobody knows what kind of deal is going to be agreed upon yet and the owner of Ryan air is only looking to cause issues that are currently not there. Silly man. Watch he'll come crying back to the UK asking to fly from here when a deal is on the table. Problem with this is the EU think they now own the skies, they don't.

Just a slight problem with this newspaper report they aren't EU airlines they are European airlines belonging to the country they originate from eg KLM is Dutch, Lufthansa is German, British airways belongs to the UK they aren't owned by the EU in any way.


----------



## 1290423

Can someone remind me please did we take holidays in other eu countries prior to joining the eu, or didn't we have aeroplanes in those days that could fly short haul?


----------



## rona

DT said:


> @rona
> Rona, I am a member of the AWP but have to admit I have not read their bumf lately, despite just renevewing my membership, I know when I first joined the issue of live exports for slaughter were a hot topic.
> 
> The have been calls now we are leaving the eu to ban it, I'm with you 100 pet cent on this one.
> 
> Anyway, found this, not read it, interested what you make of it
> http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06504/SN06504.pdf


Trouble is, half the EU regulations aren't worth the paper they are written on 
http://action.ciwf.org.uk/ea-action...&ea.campaign.id=67025&ea.tracking.id=2d57aea1

This needs signing by everyone to get it discussed in Parliament
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/170885

And how the hell does foie gras get past the EU welfare directive?

Jesthar, I know I haven't a good grasp of the English language but that doesn't make me stupid, though many seem to think I am


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Trouble is, half the EU regulations aren't worth the paper they are written on


So you need me to post the links where the UK government fails to enforce it Rona or even to check live animal transport trucks conform to minimum requirements?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> The WTO already prohibits the EU from banning imports of eggs from barren battery cages although this practice is banned within the EU itself.


According to the RSPCA in January of this year, the EU never challenged the ruling on eggs



Goblin said:


> So you need me to post the links where the UK government fails to enforce it Rona or even to check live animal transport trucks conform to minimum requirements?


No I don't


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> According to the RSPCA in January of this year, the EU never challenged the ruling on eggs


Doesn't change the fact that WTO rules prevent them from banning it. Why didn't they challenge it.. Could it be because they had no case to be able to challenge it with?

The UK government is removing welfare on animals so would they challenge it or simply blame the outside party? We have examples obviously where this happens. EU rules mean we cannot control EU immigrants.. (well we have powers we simply don't use them, that's the EU's fault).


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Doesn't change the fact that WTO rules prevent them from banning it. Why didn't they challenge it.. Could it be because they had no case to be able to challenge it with?


Obviously to lucrative, they went against WTO on other issues and have even ignored them on one issue, so why not eggs?

UK banned veal crates and pig stalls one and a half decades before the EU


----------



## rona

rona said:


> Obviously to lucrative, they went against WTO on other issues and have even ignored them on one issue, so why not eggs?
> 
> UK banned veal crates and pig stalls one and a half decades before the EU


Then what about fur farming?

Banned here many many years ago, still going strong in other EU countries. Half of farmed fur come from Europe


----------



## rona

rona said:


> Obviously to lucrative, they went against WTO on other issues and have even ignored them on one issue, so why not eggs?
> 
> UK banned veal crates and pig stalls one and a half decades before the EU





rona said:


> Then what about fur farming?
> 
> Banned here many many years ago, still going strong in other EU countries. Half of farmed fur come from Europe


And the EU is still paying farmers to raise bulls for bull fighting 

What's that about animal welfare standards......huh?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> And the EU is still paying farmers to raise bulls for bull fighting
> 
> What's that about animal welfare standards......huh?


This was done by local authorities, if we were to be Spanish we will be under them:







Cats, even neutered and looked after by communities are considered vermin like rats. Rat poison was used.

That seems to be general practice, seems breeding dogs just fir a season or two, then kill them in most brutal way is acceptable?
Animal welfare applies to some more than others








Breeding for corrida is as subsidised as breeding for consumption.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> What's that about animal welfare standards......huh?


So what is the UK government doing about it.. nothing. How does leaving stop it.. it doesn't. What does leaving do.. Stop us from having a voice.

Will it stop transport of live animals.. no.

You can point out as long as you like what is wrong with the EU. What you cannot do is show how leaving improves anything.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/odious-cretin-nigel-farage-brexit-10169546































And some are calling for him to represent the UK'S interest's????

It's already a laughing stock with Europe and most of the world without his help.....


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> This was done by local authorities, if we were to be Spanish we will be under them:


50,000 dogs dumped by owners in the UK each year. Healthy animals euthanised every 2 hours in the UK. Don't you think we need to get our own house in order? EU isn't stopping us from doing so.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/odious-cretin-nigel-farage-brexit-10169546
> 
> View attachment 305626
> View attachment 305627
> View attachment 305628
> View attachment 305629
> 
> 
> And some are calling for him to represent the UK'S interest's????
> 
> It's already a laughing stock with Europe and most of the world without his help.....


He definitely insulted Italians,
mafia might take offence too, fish wrapped in "The Sun" is on the way...


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/odious-cretin-nigel-farage-brexit-10169546
> 
> View attachment 305626
> View attachment 305627
> View attachment 305628
> View attachment 305629
> 
> 
> And some are calling for him to represent the UK'S interest's????
> 
> It's already a laughing stock with Europe and most of the world without his help.....


He behaved appallingly and I don't know what he thinks he's achieved, other than to make himself look a complete and utter dick head.
It's about time he learnt when to keep his mouth shut


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> 50,000 dogs dumped by owners in the UK each year. Healthy animals euthanised every 2 hours in the UK. Don't you think we need to get our own house in order? EU isn't stopping us from doing so.


The government aren't paying these people though are they?

And yes, we should get our own house in order and hopefully the people will now have enough influence to do just that


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> He behaved appallingly and I don't know what he thinks he's achieved, other than to make himself look a complete and utter dick head.
> It's about time he learnt when to keep his mouth shut


He achieved one thing - EU are sure he represents Brexit.

I am afraid it is up to us to get this Celebrity out of there.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> So what is the UK government doing about it.


I've already given examples of what the UK has done above and prior to EU standards



Goblin said:


> Will it stop transport of live animals.. no.


We may be able to stop the ones from this country



Goblin said:


> You can point out as long as you like what is wrong with the EU. What you cannot do is show how leaving improves anything.


I'm sure it won't improve anything the EU does one jot, but being there hasn't either has it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> The government aren't paying these people though are they?
> 
> And yes,* we should get our own house in order *and hopefully the people will now have enough influence to do just that


But we are getting our own house in order. We are leaving the EU so we don't have the EU's problems to worry about and the EU wasting the money donated to them each year in way of membership fees that gets fritted away not on the EU but on corrupt countries outside of the EU.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> But we are getting our own house in order. We are leaving the EU so we don't have the EU's problems to worry about and the EU wasting the money donated to them each year in way of membership fees that gets fritted away not on the EU but on corrupt countries outside of the EU.


Sorry. I was talking about animal welfare issues


----------



## Happy Paws2

And leaving the EU is going to help stop animal cruelty, "I don't think so", we should have stayed and fought from inside the EU we can't do anything to protect from the outside.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Sorry. I was talking about animal welfare issues


Sorry :Muted


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> And leaving the EU is going to help stop animal cruelty, "I don't think so", we should have stayed and fought from inside the EU we can't do anything to protect from the outside.


What makes you think we can't?

For one we can make tougher regulations here in the UK on animal cruelty and two the RSPCA have said they will fight tooth and nail to make sure current animal cruelty laws are kept and worked on to make them tougher. I read this somewhere a while back.


----------



## Zaros

Happy Paws said:


> And leaving the EU is going to help stop animal cruelty, "I don't think so", we should have stayed and fought from inside the EU we can't do anything to protect from the outside.


That's absolutely right HP.

Empires fall from within.

Perhaps at some later date Britain can build a big wooden horse and try to sneak back in through the front door.... :Hilarious


----------



## 1290423

no one mentioned bullfighting, let alone the other atrocities setting animals on fire chucking goats off buildings etc
And before some know it all starts spouting about the atrocities that happen against animals here just remember these are acts of cruelty which are illegal whilst those I mentioned above are not only legal but people actually pay to go and see them!


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> 50,000 dogs dumped by owners in the UK each year. Healthy animals euthanised every 2 hours in the UK. Don't you think we need to get our own house in order? EU isn't stopping us from doing so.


Our house wasn't that far out of order before we joined the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> no one mentioned bullfighting, let alone the other atrocities setting animals on fire chucking goats off buildings etc
> And before some know it all starts spouting about the atrocities that happen against animals here just remember these are acts of cruelty which are illegal whilst those I mentioned above are not only legal but people actually pay to go and see them!


@rona mentioned bullfighting, under " corrida"......
Senior moment or lost in translation?


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> What makes you think we can't?
> 
> For one we can make tougher regulations here in the UK on animal cruelty and two the RSPCA have said they will fight tooth and nail to make sure current animal cruelty laws are kept and worked on to make them tougher. I read this somewhere a while back.


there needs to be far stiffer sentences that's for sure,
Sick to death of hearing of all the poor little Johnnys who has such a bad childhood walking away with just a slap on their wristsr


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> @rona mentioned bullfighting, under " corrida"......
> Senior moment or lost in translation?


Opps cheeky been up to my normal trick, not reading the posts I've missed, just the current ones xx


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> there needs to be far stiffer sentances that's for sure,
> Sick to death of heating of poor the little Johnnys who has such a bad childhood walking away with just a slap on their wrists


Heating the poor?
That is very close to animal cruelty too!!:'(


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> Then what about fur farming?
> 
> Banned here many many years ago, still going strong in other EU countries. Half of farmed fur come from Europe


Oh look! They have turned a blind eye to this one!


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Heating the poor?
> That is very close to animal cruelty too!!:'(


Opps I'd look to roast a few x


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> The government aren't paying these people though are they?


No they are just making deals with the major international companies who do not put the environment or animal welfare at the top of the priorities and listening to lobbyists. Tell me, how many green MP's are there in parliament. How many MEP's in the EU parliament? Why is it the "industry led" animal welfare codes are deemed the way forward in the UK?



rona said:


> I've already given examples of what the UK has done above and prior to EU standards


So we can do things even within the EU. You were indicating we couldn't.



> I'm sure it won't improve anything the EU does one jot, but being there hasn't either has it?


Really, Uk had nothing to do with the EU human rights regulation then. We aren't the country with the 3rd largest number of MEP's. We cannot actually form pacts with others when needed to push for things the UK wants.



stockwellcat said:


> For one we can make tougher regulations here in the UK on animal cruelty and two the RSPCA have said they will fight tooth and nail to make sure current animal cruelty laws are kept and worked on to make them tougher. I read this somewhere a while back.


Too bad the government is not listening to them then isn't it, already removing animal welfare codes. Too bad Heathrow is getting another runway despite pollution levels already being higher than EU regulations presumable as we will have left the EU before it's built. This before we actually leave the EU. How do we hold the government to account again? General election where obviously people vote for animal rights as a priority.

Nobody has said the EU is perfect. However change happens by the actions of those who have a voice.


----------



## Goblin

Fur farming. Just what has the UK done to push for a ban in the EU? If you cannot answer that, how can we ban fur farming when we cannot enact rules due to the EU dictating policy? You contradict yourself with your examples.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> there needs to be far stiffer sentences that's for sure,
> Sick to death of hearing of all the poor little Johnnys who has such a bad childhood walking away with just a slap on their wristsr


Totally agree with you on tougher sentences for animal cruelty.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Nobody has said the EU is perfect.


You have.

You keep dictating to us how perfect the EU is and why we shouldn't be leaving the crumbling bloc. 9+ long months of it.

So tell me how do other countries outside of the EU manage to survive without the EU all these millennia?

The EU have brainwashed alot of people making themselves out to be the bees knees. I just hope they are going to act like grown ups around the negotiating table because there rhetoric so far has been far from grown up?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Fur farming. Just what has the UK done to push for a ban in the EU? If you cannot answer that, how can we ban fur farming when we cannot enact rules due to the EU dictating policy? You contradict yourself with your examples.


Oh wow, you'd rather pick up on the fact that we haven't stopped the EU fur farming than that the EU is still fur farming?

We have no influence with what the rest of the EU wants, that's why we need out.

Also, you said animal welfare would be worse in this country not that we could improve it in the EU when we are out. If we have far higher welfare standards despite having out arms tied behind our backs by EU legislation in many instances (mainly farming policy), I can't see how or even why they would be worse after we leave.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> You have.


Really. Please reference the post.



> So tell me how do other countries outside of the EU manage to survive without the EU all these millennia?


Not a question of surviving, you'll notice I've previously said that. It's a case of being in is better than being on our own backed by evidence.



> The EU have brainwashed alot of people making themselves out to be the bees knees. I just hope they are going to act like grown ups around the negotiating table because there rhetoric so far has been far from grown up?


You mean posting advantages of staying in as opposed to just saying "we won an opinion poll".


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Really. Please reference the post.
> 
> Not a question of surviving, you'll notice I've previously said that. It's a case of being in is better than being on our own backed by evidence.
> 
> You mean posting advantages of staying in as opposed to just saying "we won an opinion poll".


Whatever.
You are repeating yourself yet again so you obviously have nothing constructive to say.

Just accept no one owes you an apology and no one owes you an explaination for the way they voted in the Referendum.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Oh wow, you'd rather pick up on the fact that we haven't stopped the EU fur farming than that the EU is still fur farming?


Why limit ourselves and our "principles" to the UK when we can push for more changes?



> We have no influence with what the rest of the EU wants, that's why we need out.


Again, how many green MP's vs MEP's exist? How many UK MEP's are there? Yet you say we have no influence. OK it depends if those MEP's are like Farage but working with the EU we could accomplish a lot.



> Also, you said animal welfare would be worse in this country not that we could improve it in the EU when we are out.


UK government is removing animal welfare standards not the EU or did you simply ignore that. We also can influence the EU to have higher animal welfare standards if we are in it.

Why is it that the green party and animal welfare groups wanted us to stay in the EU?


----------



## 1290423

Xx


Goblin said:


> Really. Please reference the post.
> 
> You mean posting advantages of staying in as opposed to just saying "we won an opinion poll".


Well arn't we the lucky ones, lucky to have a government in office that has the balls to accept the result of that opinion poll and act on it! Better then anything the wishy washy namby pamby opposition have! 
Why don't you go chain yourself to some railings.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have just thought of something the remainers don't like. The EU have a Referendum for example and say they don't get the result they like they have another and another until they do get the result they like. The UK has one Referendum and everyone is told the results will be respected whatever the outcome and it is a once in a life time Referendum. The Government decide to respect the will of the people, that's those that won the Referendum, the remainers don't like this because there will be no more Referendum's like in the EU to overturn the result.

Sound about right?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Why is it that the green party and animal welfare groups wanted us to stay in the EU?


Did they? 
http://quaker-animals.co.uk/2016/04/eu-in-or-out-whats-best-for-the-worlds-animals/


----------



## Guest

EU animal protection laws are by not means adequate, and lots more much be done. One achievement EU can boast about was to forbid battery cages for chicken, and even if some break the rule, most EU countries follow it. Slowly we progress, (way too slowly IMO), but every step is important. It´ll be brilliant if Britain could show example and have really strict laws to protect animals. Have you started to improve the legislation now, like organised campaigns etc. to ensure it will happen? Maybe PF could start it?


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Did they?
> http://quaker-animals.co.uk/2016/04/eu-in-or-out-whats-best-for-the-worlds-animals/


From your link.. generally yes. (I'll ignore PETA link in that list).

Animal aid (undecided)


> _When it comes to animal protection issues, outcomes depend on the policy issue or legislation under consideration and the campaigning/lobbying effort people put into it. In countries like Britain, animal protection issues have long been debated and battled over politically and commercially, and legislation coming out of the EU tends to have little real impact. However, for countries where there is little to no tradition of animal protection, the EU can provide a platform for substantial welfare advances. _


Bugslife


> _Britain's membership of the EU has been good for bugs, bringing strong wildlife legislation, international cooperation and environmental improvements that have benefited invertebrates across the land, seas and freshwaters of the UK and the EU._


Greenpeace:


> _*Birds, bees and marine life in our oceans don't understand borders.* There are countless creatures that come and go into the British Isles. Whether we like it or not, we all have a shared environment in Europe. It applies to the air we breathe and the seas we swim in, and we need to govern them together._


_
RSPCA neutral.

Compassion in world farming: not commited for or against



It is sometimes thought that if we were to leave the EU, the UK - detached from the constraints of EU free trade rules - would be able to raise its animal welfare standards, while protecting UK farmers by banning lower welfare imports.

However, if we were to exit the EU, our trade with the Member States would be governed by the World Trade Organization rules which, though allowing more latitude than the EU's rules, would still hamper the UK's ability to restrict imports that do not meet UK animal welfare standards.

Live exports would also be governed by these rules which, like the EU regulations, prohibit trade restrictions on 'goods'. If the UK were to attempt to ban live exports, the World Trade Organization could challenge this, and our defence would have to rest on public morality. Alternatively, the UK may negotiate trade agreements with one or more EU Member States, in which case the UK's ability to ban live exports would be governed by these agreements. Unfortunately, the UK government may choose not to ban live exports within these new agreements.

Click to expand...

Kent Action for Live : Leave




Ian and I will be voting to leave because we have campaigned for the last 20 years to stop the export trade and we are constantly told that the UK is prevented from banning the trade due to the Treaty of Rome.

Click to expand...

 (interesting no recognition of the WTO requirements).

RSPB - non-committed




Given that nature knows no boundaries (for example birds migrate), the RSPB has always believed we need to act internationally especially as the threats (such as pollution) are often diffuse. Comprehensive international agreements for nature conservation and the environment are therefore essential.

Evidence has shown that European legislation has helped to increase the populations of threatened species whilst also improving water and air quality. Yet, some sectoral policies have caused environmental harm.

Click to expand...

_


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> From your link.. generally yes


I thought most said that they were hopefully that we would be able to improve welfare.
All but buglife who I respect and RSPB who i don't and then an individual of no import

All the others were optimistic, unlike yourself who always seems glass half empty


----------



## 1290423

MrsZee said:


> EU animal protection laws are by not means adequate, and lots more much be done. One achievement EU can boast about was to forbid battery cages for chicken, and even if some break the rule, most EU countries follow it. Slowly we progress, (way too slowly IMO), but every step is important. It´ll be brilliant if Britain could show example and have really strict laws to protect animals. Have you started to improve the legislation now, like organised campaigns etc. to ensure it will happen? Maybe PF could start it?


We have a political party in the uk, it is called the AWP I actually joined in nov 2015 and renewed again this last year, only really started to show more interest this year as I wasn't sold on all thereir policies initially , obviously they are very small but all parties have to start somewhere.
AWP. Animal welfare party


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> I thought most said that they were hopefully that we would be able to improve welfare.
> All but buglife who I respect and RSPB who i don't and then an individual of no import
> 
> All the others were optimistic, unlike yourself who always seems glass half empty


Some people just look for the negative rona, even when there is none.
I know its no mean feat we are up against, but its up to us now to make the most of it, a new opportunity but really the way some people behave you would think we are all going to be deprived of air in two years time and die!


----------



## rona

DT said:


> we are all going to be deprived of air and two years time and die!


To be honest, that wouldn't surprise me if it actually happened, but it wouldn't be anything to do with Brexit


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> To be honest, that wouldn't surprise me if it actually happened, but it wouldn't be anything to do with Brexit


Well, if that's the case then we have nothing to fear from brexit


----------



## 1290423

Lol goblins gone quiet wonder if they have taken my advice


If so wonder which railings they chose


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I thought most said that they were hopefully that we would be able to improve welfare.
> All but buglife who I respect and RSPB who i don't and then an individual of no impor


Must be reading something different to me then. Greenpeace.. need to govern together, Compassion in world farming points out how false saying leave EU to get rid of live exports is. Trade agreements mentioned as a possibility to potentially stop it. Trade agreements with who I wonder? That's if the government decides it is more important to have a trade agreement based on morals than getting a deal signed (saudi anyone). Then again we could veto trade agreements in the EU if it didn't have that clause in. Why haven't we?

In fact the consensus is either the EU has been good for nature or neutral saying there are pros and cons. Many are stressing that we need to continue work within the EU. Only one pushing for leave, 2 people who do not take into account what is highlighted by the Compassion in world farming link and highlight the text with "we've been told it's the EU's fault". Haven't heard that one before have we.

Maybe you can point out where I am misreading it and where any say animal welfare will be improved overall from leaving.


----------



## KittenKong

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN1771XM


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN1771XM
> 
> View attachment 305656


 Yeah I mean that's kinda obvious really. Wouldn't make sense for the EMA to reside in a country that's not in the EU....


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN1771XM
> 
> View attachment 305656


There aren't the only one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39512027


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> There aren't the only one.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39512027


Seems very sensible to wait until the dust settles to see if "Brexit may even have "positive side effects",

as stated by him in the article.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Seems very sensible to wait until the dust settles to see if "Brexit may even have "positive side effects",


And I wonder how many years, we'll have to wait for the dust to settle, I bet I'll never see it.


----------



## Dr Pepper

I see Michael Caine has been speaking about why he voted Brexit. That man has unassuming class.

Whereas remain had Bob Geldof pitching up for a bit of foul mouthed thuggery.

Make of that what you will.


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> I see Michael Caine has been speaking about why he voted Brexit. That man has unassuming class.


He's an actor.

Quite a lot of people know that!


----------



## Honeys mum

Iconic British actor Michael Caine speaks sense when it comes to Brexit. What a legend!























Iconic British actor Michael Caine speaks sense when it comes to Brexit. What a legend!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dr Pepper said:


> I see Michael Caine has been speaking about why he voted Brexit. That man has unassuming class.
> 
> Whereas remain had Bob Geldof pitching up for a bit of foul mouthed thuggery.
> 
> Make of that what you will.


and your point is


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dr Pepper said:


> I see Michael Caine has been speaking about why he voted Brexit. That man has unassuming class.
> 
> Whereas remain had Bob Geldof pitching up for a bit of foul mouthed thuggery.
> 
> Make of that what you will.


and your point is??


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Then what about fur farming?
> 
> Banned here many many years ago, still going strong in other EU countries. Half of farmed fur come from Europe


Banned by Labour. They banned fur farming. They also banned hunting with hounds, experimentation on great apes, testing of cosmetics on animals. Brought in the Animal welfare act etc. If you genuinely want progressive polices for animals don't vote for a regressive party - its as simple as that.

It wasn't the EUs fault that Mays government ditched their promise to ban the ivory trade either- http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/g...festo-pledge-to-ban-ivory-trade-a3486376.html

Nor was it the EUs fault the Tories ditched their promise to ban wild animals in circuses.

And it wasn't the EUs fault Tories filibustered to block Labours Anna Turley's bill to increase sentencing for animal abusers. http://www.anna4redcar.org.uk/tory_mps_block_baby_s_law_debate

Wonder how soon fur farming will be back on the agenda in this country?

Fur trade exhibition at the tory party conference -












Dr Pepper said:


> I see Michael Caine has been speaking about why he voted Brexit. That man has unassuming class.
> 
> Whereas remain had Bob Geldof pitching up for a bit of foul mouthed thuggery.
> 
> Make of that what you will.





Honeys mum said:


> Iconic British actor Michael Caine speaks sense when it comes to Brexit. What a legend!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iconic British actor Michael Caine speaks sense when it comes to Brexit. What a legend!


Reality check time >>>


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> I see Michael Caine has been speaking about why he voted Brexit. That man has unassuming class.
> 
> Whereas remain had Bob Geldof pitching up for a bit of foul mouthed thuggery.
> 
> Make of that what you will.


bo b Geldof! Aka rent a gob, leader of the great unwashed. Doesnt everyone around him commit suicide


----------



## rona

rona said:


> Then what about fur farming?
> 
> Banned here many many years ago, still going strong in other EU countries. Half of farmed fur come from Europe


Again they nearly all kill Badgers and have never had protection at all despite the fact that most countries badger populations are as low as when we introduced it in 1973 (Cons government), we even tightened it in 1992 (cons government)

France is doing a roaring trade in selling Fox and Deer hunting with hounds.........................


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Again they nearly all kill Badgers and have never had protection at all despite the fact that most countries badger populations are as low as when we introduced it in 1973 (Cons government), we even tightened it in 1992 (cons government)
> 
> France is doing a roaring trade in selling Fox and Deer hunting with hounds.........................


What about the tories wiping out our badgers? If you care so much about badgers why are you a staunch tory supporter?

ETA And the tories are desperate to bring back hunting with hounds When the tories have given themselves even more power with the 'Great repeal bill' how quickly do you think it will take them to repeal the hunting act?


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> What about the tories wiping out our badgers? If you care so much about badgers why are you a staunch tory supporter?
> 
> ?


Hey up noush xxxx
There is not serious opposion to the tories, hasn't been for a long time, and personally I dont think there will be for a long time in the future xxx


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Hey up noush xxxx
> There is not serious opposion to the tories, hasn't been for a long time, and personally I dont think there will be for a long time in the future xxx


Hope you are wrong. France has Marcon. Britain might have brand new central left too. Time for it.


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Hey up noush xxxx
> There is not serious opposion to the tories, hasn't been for a long time, and personally I dont think there will be for a long time in the future xxx


Hey up xxx

No party could be worse than the tories (UKIP excluded because they share the same ideology) The tories are disaster for our wildlife, environment, society, nhs, economy. Schools, hospitals, social care, prisons, ambulance, fire service, public services - what actually isn't in crisis? lol.

The EU didn't cause all this. This is what tory austerity looks like. And now its set to get so much worse. Well not in my name.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Happy Paws said:


> and your point is


Slob Geldof, sorry Bob Geldof, famously a tax avoiding non-dom, took to the streets with his potty mouth protesting against Brexit.

Now similarities between him and those on this thread are uncanny. Why is it those that don't reside in the UK are so "passionate" about us remaining in the EU?

Whereas Mr Caine quietly states his reasons for voting leave with dignity and class. Yet the remainers claim we are the uneducated racist. Evidence suggests the opposite.


----------



## Goblin

What isn't acceptable is Michael Cain being trolled for his opinion. If you want to disgree, fine. Do it with facts. That goes for both sides.

So once again, it comes down to the lies of the leave campaign.. Can you explain @Dr Pepper exactly what we are getting freedom from? Unelected bureaucrats perhaps.. Where we never get to decide our own rules.. in a democratic system. Where we are stopped from doing what we want.. yet the majority of "rules" we live under are from the UK government, not Brussels.


----------



## Dr Pepper

As Mr Caine so eloquently put it "I'd rather be a poor master than a rich servant".


----------



## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> This is what tory austerity looks like.


But nouska.. we will have 350million per week for the NHS. May herself has said she is working for a country that works for everyone while courted multinationals with deals behind closed doors. While company's such as google pay a pittance in terms of tax rates compared to the average UK business.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> As Mr Caine so eloquently put it "I'd rather be a poor master than a rich servant".


Maybe Me Caine could explain that statement using facts and reality. Slogans don't make facts. Leavers have certainly been unable to do so so far. EU is a democracy. Then again democracy <> get your own way. That is why leavers are afraid of democracy and push that democracy is the result of only one opinion poll.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Maybe Me Caine could explain that statement using facts and reality. Slogans don't make facts. Leavers have certainly been unable to do so so far. EU is a democracy. Then again democracy <> get your own way. That is why leavers are afraid of democracy and push that democracy is the result of only one opinion poll.


Seriously, can you please stop just copying and pasting your previous posts and come up with something new.

We've given you facts and reasons for voting leave, Mr Caine's response sums them all up rather nicely.


----------



## rona

http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/eu-austerity-measures-driving-millions-into-poverty/

"EU policies have given rise to persistent unemployment, lower wages and higher taxes, boosting poverty and social exclusion rates, which now affects some 123 million people or 24 per cent of the EU population."

http://www.newropeans-magazine.org/...with-the-complacency-of-their-ruling-classes/

"Who truly benefited from the euro.
A stable currency is primarily beneficial to multinational corporations"

"they will have to choose between the ideological, personal bias and intellectual honesty. Choosing the former might destroy the EU, choosing the latter could save it."

https://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxf...e-austerity-inequality-europe-120913-en_1.pdf

Austerity is actually an EU policy


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Seriously, can you please stop just copying and pasting your previous posts and come up with something new.


What.. repeating unsupported lies Maybe you can explain why his response is actually valid when the EU is a democracy in which he has a voice.


----------



## rona

Dr Pepper said:


> As Mr Caine so eloquently put it "I'd rather be a poor master than a rich servant".


He also said both options were scary. With that I can wholeheartedly agree, though like him I thought the leave option held more promise


----------



## KittenKong

Still deny The Sun has no influence (or control) of many of its readers?


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> *As Mr Caine so eloquently* put it "I'd rather be a poor master than a rich servant".


He's an actor.

He's supposed to be influential.

As for his eloquence...

I can name many influential orators from history...

All of them madmen!:Hilarious


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/eu-austerity-measures-driving-millions-into-poverty/
> 
> "EU policies have given rise to persistent unemployment, lower wages and higher taxes, boosting poverty and social exclusion rates, which now affects some 123 million people or 24 per cent of the EU population."
> 
> http://www.newropeans-magazine.org/...with-the-complacency-of-their-ruling-classes/
> 
> "Who truly benefited from the euro.
> A stable currency is primarily beneficial to multinational corporations"
> 
> "they will have to choose between the ideological, personal bias and intellectual honesty. Choosing the former might destroy the EU, choosing the latter could save it."
> 
> https://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxf...e-austerity-inequality-europe-120913-en_1.pdf
> 
> Austerity is actually an EU policy


Actually no it's not a EU policy. It's a policy used to try and get countries out of difficulty which those governments caused which have asked the EU to fund them. Tell me what happens when you spend more than your income? Can you continue to spend more than your income indefinately? What happens when you no longer have access to more income?

How did the EU force the UK government to adopt an austerity program? How does the EU force the UK to cut money to the NHS? Need I continue with more of these questions?

Didn't think the Uk adopted the euro. Can they be forced to do so. No. UK government makes any decision. They retain sovereignty proving again the lie froom the leave campaign and pushed by those who support leave including Mr Caine.

Obviously I do need to ask the question.. How does the UK removing itself help? I assume the UK government is going to bail Greece out without dictating terms. Seems unlikely considering within the EU they arranged it so they didn't have to pay anything more to help support bailouts.


----------



## Goblin

Skip to 1:47


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> He also said both options were scary. With that I can wholeheartedly agree, though like him I thought the leave option held more promise


Promise.. based on a foundation of lies. More like fantasy which has already been shown to be false.


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I have never eaten Frosties or Sugar Puffs so I have no idea what you are talking about. Glad we cleared that up


Here's Tony to tell you how good they are:






Personally I neither like milk or sugar so I wouldn't eat them, nor any other cereal!


----------



## Honeys mum

If this is an example, no wonder we won.


----------



## Goblin

Need me to post some of the media reports Honeys Mum? How about the murder of someone campaigning simply for campaigning for remain? If that above image is why you voted for leave it does say it all.


----------



## rona

Honeys mum said:


> If this is an example, no wonder we won.


To be honest when someone says we won it makes me wince. I don't feel that we won anything.

Winning implies we've achieved something and we haven't achieved anything yet. I hope we get to savour a win in the future but I feel even if it all works out ok, there's going to still be a lot who will feel they've lost and that's never a good result.

Having said that, I'm still very pleased with the way the vote went. I just wish everyone could now get on board to make the best of this situation


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


> If this is an example, no wonder we won.


I'm sure if I'd got time to wast, I could find pictures just the same of the leave campaigners, but have better things to do than be silly, just to try and make a useless point.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I just wish everyone could now get on board to make the best of this situation


We are trying to make the best of this situation. The best is to not jump off the cliff because we were told we'll grow wings.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Need me to post some of the media reports Honeys Mum? How about the murder of someone campaigning simply for campaigning for remain? If that above image is why you voted for leave it does say it all.


Oh you mean jo cox , terrible that someone should be attacked and murdered just because of their beliefs, I remember when nigel farages car was sabotaged in an attempt to assinate him too.


----------



## 1290423

Think now is the time to just point out that they're all good and bad on both sides of the argument I've met some really really nice remain campaigners I've also met some not so nice. I can also say the same for the leave team some have been lovely, some I wouldn't give air space too.
Pretty much like saying all football supporters are thugs blah blah blah


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I just wish everyone could now get on board to make the best of this situation


No chance.


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> No chance.


What are you going to do then, simmer with rage for the rest of your life, emigrate, throw yourself under a bus! What? Everyone has little option other than to get on with their lives


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> What are you going to do then, simmer with rage for the rest of your life, emigrate, throw yourself under a bus! What? Everyone has little option other than to get on with their lives


 People still have a right to oppose and/or fight for what they believe in though.

Did people accept the imprisonment of Nelson Mandela, that women couldn't vote, The Berlin Wall and the Poll Tax because they were told to?

Did Nigel Farage sit back and accept to be in the EU for that matter?

It took a long time but they persisted to fight for what they believed in.

Now they're trying that with Brexit. Sit down, get over it, even embrace it!

They must be joking!

I, for one, will not sit back and "accept" it.


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> People still have a right to oppose and/or fight for what they believe in though.
> 
> Did people accept the imprisonment of Nelson Mandela, that women couldn't vote, The Berlin Wall and the Poll Tax because they were told to?
> 
> Did Nigel Farage sit back and accept to be in the EU for that matter?
> 
> It took a long time but they persisted to fight for what they believed in.
> 
> Now they're trying that with Brexit. Sit down, get over it, even embrace it!
> 
> They must be joking!
> 
> I, for one, will not sit back and "accept" it.


Moaning on a forum won't achieve anything though will it, so same question - what are you actually going to do about it


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> Moaning on a forum won't achieve anything though will it, so same question - what are you actually going to do about it


When several leave voters discover the reality of leaving the EU it won't just be the remainers moaning.

I can't do anything about it personally of course but will continue to support groups like Open Britain who oppose May's hard Brexit and the likes. Show support to any political party that opposes Brexit.

And being not far from Scotland I back the SNP too.

You might think I'm wasting my time? I'm sure they said the same to Farage once.


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> When several leave voters discover the reality of leaving the EU it won't just be the remainers moaning.
> 
> I can't do anything about it personally of course but will continue to support groups like Open Britain who oppose May's hard Brexit and the likes. Show support to any political party that opposes Brexit.
> 
> And being not far from Scotland I back the SNP too.
> 
> You might think I'm wasting my time? I'm sure they said the same to Farage once.


Like him or not though Farage physically did something didn't he, he campaigned, stood as an MEP, worked on UKIP etc he didn't just post on a Pet Forum


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> Like him or not though Farage physically did something didn't he, he campaigned, stood as an MEP, worked on UKIP etc he didn't just post on a Pet Forum


What makes you think I just post on PF? I'm on other forums too, not as "KittenKong" I hasten to add!

Besides, why are you posting on a Pet Forum for that matter? Why are any of us???


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> What makes you think I just post on PF? I'm on other forums too, not as "KittenKong" I hasten to add!
> 
> Besides, why are you posting on a Pet Forum for that matter? Why are any of us???


You can strut your stuff on as many forums as you wish
It is not going to make any difference to the outcome is it


----------



## 1290423

Does make you wonder what we did before forums, Facebook, Twitter or wherever they chat!


----------



## DoodlesRule

Bisbow said:


> You can strut your stuff on as many forums as you wish
> It is not going to make any difference to the outcome is it


 I pondered on saying something along those lines but I am gradually losing the will to live with this whole thread, its just predictable and rather depressing and at the end of the pointless!


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> You can strut your stuff on as many forums as you wish
> It is not going to make any difference to the outcome is it


Not immediately perhaps, but one day it might do.


----------



## Bisbow

DoodlesRule said:


> I pondered on saying something along those lines but I am gradually losing the will to live with this whole thread, its just predictable and rather depressing and at the end of the pointless!


I know what you mean, all the negativity gets to you in the end, but we will soldier on with fortitude


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Not immediately perhaps, but one day it might do.


Oh well you are entitled to have to have dream to cling to


----------



## cheekyscrip

No one knows what might be in fifty years, but the next good few years look rather gloomy , not only for UK.


----------



## KittenKong

Who said everything is negative???

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...LQ/viewform?c=0&w=1&fbzx=-2201898724278359000

http://www.stilleu.uk/20000-back-eu-citizenship-campaign/


----------



## DoodlesRule

KittenKong said:


> Who said everything is negative???
> 
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...LQ/viewform?c=0&w=1&fbzx=-2201898724278359000
> 
> http://www.stilleu.uk/20000-back-eu-citizenship-campaign/
> 
> View attachment 305693


Pie in the sky - if its so important to you why not go and live abroad now so that you fall under what ever will be agreed


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> We have no influence with what the rest of the EU wants, that's why we need out.


With regards to animal cruelty, this is an interesting statement.

Can we not impose stricter animal cruelty rules than those adopted by the EU, be it fur farming or bull fighting?

If so, then leaving the EU makes no difference to the situation either in the UK or the other 27 countries. Staying in, on the other hand, would - if we thought the issue important enough - allow us to delay legislation on a matter that required unanimity until the EU's animal cruelty rules were tightened.

Implying that because we can be outvoted on this issue is 'why we need out' strikes me as quite wrong, since all it does is remove any influence we might otherwise exert.


----------



## Arnie83

DoodlesRule said:


> Pie in the sky - if its so important to you why not go and live abroad now so that you fall under what ever will be agreed


From one of the quoted links: "The European Parliament has inserted into their Brexit negotiating position that there should be some solution for pro-EU Brits who face being abandoned in Brexit Britain."

Certainly Guy Verhofstadt is very keen on the idea, so it is far from pie in the sky.

What difference would it make to yourself if those of us who want to remain citizens of something greater than the UK are afforded the opportunity to do so? Inviting us to leave Britain seems a rather immoderate reaction.


----------



## KittenKong

DoodlesRule said:


> Pie in the sky - if its so important to you why not go and live abroad now so that you fall under what ever will be agreed


Two things- work and other commitments. Secondly it would be madness to sell up and move abroad as the fate of EU migrants in the UK and vice versa is unknown at present.

Still, while we might not be able to retire abroad thanks to Brexit, Scotland is the other option.

See how things are in fifteen years time.
Hopefully the UK, or what's left of it, will have re-joined the EEA by then.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Two things- work and other commitments. Secondly it would be madness to sell up and move abroad as the fate of EU migrants in the UK and vice versa is unknown at present.
> 
> Still, while we might not be able to retire abroad thanks to Brexit, Scotland is the other option.
> 
> See how things are in fifteen years time.
> Hopefully the UK, or what's left of it, will have re-joined the EEA by then.


Gibraltar ?


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> No one knows what might be in fifty years.


Exactly Scrippy.

Although, in all probability, this thread might still be up and running.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Arnie83 said:


> From one of the quoted links: "The European Parliament has inserted into their Brexit negotiating position that there should be some solution for pro-EU Brits who face being abandoned in Brexit Britain."
> 
> Certainly Guy Verhofstadt is very keen on the idea, so it is far from pie in the sky.
> 
> What difference would it make to yourself if those of us who want to remain citizens of something greater than the UK are afforded the opportunity to do so? Inviting us to leave Britain seems a rather immoderate reaction.


Its wasn't a "if you don't like it why don't b****r off" comment and I trust KK did not read it like that. It was a genuine question, the EU have said that March date when Article 50 was invoked cannot be the cut off date for protection of those residing in the UK (so presumably works both ways) so if living abroad was very important to you why not go now. KK has answered why its not feasible


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Implying that because we can be outvoted on this issue is 'why we need out' strikes me as quite wrong, since all it does is remove any influence we might otherwise exert.


That statement was not just about animal cruelty though, because as I have illustrated, we can act on many of those issues without the EU consent, many other issues though need 28 very differing countries to agree, sometimes that stops those that want to act for the good doing so for many many years. How much cruelty and/or harm could be avoided in the mean time?


----------



## Guest

DT said:


> We have a political party in the uk, it is called the AWP I actually joined in nov 2015 and renewed again this last year, only really started to show more interest this year as I wasn't sold on all thereir policies initially , obviously they are very small but all parties have to start somewhere.
> AWP. Animal welfare party


That sounds like a really good party! All in PF should join it!



DT said:


> Hey up noush xxxx
> There is not serious opposion to the tories, hasn't been for a long time, and personally I dont think there will be for a long time in the future xxx


That is really sad. Why is this? Is it only because trade unions lost all their power or is it because Labour has had incompetent leaders or is it just that the information people mosyly get is supporting conservatives and big business? Or a bit of all this?


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> I'm sure if I'd got time to wast, I could find pictures just the same of the leave campaigners, but have better things to do than be silly, just to try and make a useless point.


HP it doesn't take two minutes to find those sort of pictures , so please feel free to put on as many as you like of the leavers campaign. I'm wasn't being silly, just trying to show the difference between the two people.

Once agin you are being very rude and also sarcastic.I have never been rude to you or anyone else come to that. It doesn't cost anything to be polite.



Goblin said:


> Need me to post some of the media reports Honeys Mum? How about the murder of someone campaigning simply for campaigning for remain? If that above image is why you voted for leave it does say it all.


Don't be so childess Goblin, post what you like, if you want to sink so low as to post what you are reffering too, that is dispicable.
I don't have to justify myself to you, but that was just posted to prove a point in the difference of two people, one for remain and one for leave, which I posted earlier.
Please show me where I said that the image is the reason why I voted leave. Like Iv'e said many times before, the reasons why I voted leave are for me to know., not you.


----------



## Happy Paws2

This thread is really getting really silly and :Bored:Bored:Bored


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> I have never been rude to you or anyone else come to that. It doesn't cost anything to be polite.
> ...
> Don't be so childess Goblin, post what you like, if you want to sink so low as to post what you are reffering too, that is dispicable.


No simply pointing out we can both play tit for tat to no purpose. I couldn't be bothered to sink so low as to post meaningless and pointless pictures.



> I don't have to justify myself to you, but that was just posted to prove a point in the difference of two people, one for remain and one for leave


Erm.. you need two pictures for that demonstrating similar behaviour for that.

So I ask you.. Pretend I'm stupid as I have obviously misunderstood why this was posted. Please explain your reasoning here...


> If this is an example, no wonder we won.


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> Need me to post some of the media reports





Goblin said:


> I couldn't be bothered to sink so low as to post meaningless and pointless pictures.


I think you need to make upyour mind Goblin.


----------



## KittenKong

I'd imagine they must be some angry Brexiteers this morning on reading this. I know I would be.

How can anyone believe a word that comes out of May's mouth? She backed Remain in the referendum, then on becoming PM opts for the hardest no compromise Brexit possible.

And now we here this....

https://www.ft.com/content/cab3160c-1ac0-11e7-bcac-6d03d067f81f


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> I'd imagine they must be some angry Brexiteers this morning on reading this. I know I would be.


Sorry to disappoint but, have you seen the weather this morning? How can anyone be angry on a beautiful day like this?

Just get the breakfast champagne In the ice bucket and chill out dude; you'll blow a gasket at this rate.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I'd imagine they must be some angry Brexiteers this morning on reading this. I know I would be.


Nope........just paper talk like you always seem to believe


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Nope........just paper talk like you always seem to believe


Hmmm.... I always thought the Financial Times was one of the quality papers, then, there you go!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Hmmm.... I always thought the Financial Times was one of the quality papers, then, there you go!


It is, but it's still only as good as it's reporters


----------



## Goblin

EU press perspective: Irish

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/brexiteers-prove-that-stupid-is-as-stupid-does-1.3040420

and something important to many: beer...

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...rossings-highlights-potential-costs-1.3040315


----------



## rona

Well he's a charmer isn't he,.......saying the same as you, that we are all thick 

Amazing how anyone that disagrees is stupid and anyone that agrees is intelligent.......just can't be


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Well he's a charmer isn't he,.......saying the same as you, that we are all thick
> 
> Amazing how anyone that disagrees is stupid and anyone that agrees is intelligent.......just can't be


It doesn't strike me as a particularly well written or argued piece, but he is specifically referring to the leading Brexit politicians, not to everyone who voted to leave.

Hence:


> Which brings us to the point of all of this. The clearest example of a group of seemingly educated but actually inauthentic, unserious people is to be found in the current British cabinet.


whom he then refers to as 'the Brexiteers'.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Well he's a charmer isn't he,.......saying the same as you, that we are all thick


Nobody has called anyone thick. They have said you are unable to show facts that demonstrate leaving the EU will be better, prefering to rely on hope. Brexiteers have instead decided to believe in simple top level promises which have little to do with the realities of the global situation. They've also totally ignored how the vote and expectations of what "leave" means has changed pretending to others and themselves that they knew what they were voting for even whilst acknowleging they don't know what the terms of leaving will even be. This has nothing to do with level of intelligence.



> Amazing how anyone that disagrees is stupid and anyone that agrees is intelligent.......just can't be


Amazing how it's easier to take offence rather than actually discuss things in a logical manner.


----------



## KittenKong

Another classic difference in reporting even if I'm surprised the Murdoch Times reported the matter the way they did.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Another classic difference in reporting even if I'm surprised the Murdoch Times reported the matter the way they did.
> View attachment 305846
> View attachment 305847


You could have watched him talk yourself and made up your own mind, though I expect that had been clipped too to make it look either better or worse.

You can't believe the press you know or for that matter bias websites


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> What makes you think we can't?
> 
> For one we can make tougher regulations here in the UK on animal cruelty and two the RSPCA have said they will fight tooth and nail to make sure current animal cruelty laws are kept and worked on to make them tougher. I read this somewhere a while back.


Yes we can here protect them here in the UK but not in the rest of EU or don't they matter.


----------



## Goblin

Happy Paws said:


> Yes we can here protect them here in the UK but not in the rest of EU or don't they matter.


Missing the fact that WTO prevents us in some cases. Missing the fact that the government doesn't listen to over half the population so why should it listen to the RSPCA. Missing the fact the government actions already show business interest trumps animal welfare concern.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes I know, tell me about it. Thank the Lord we finally have a PM that doesn't want to wage war on every country we don't see eye to eye with 100%. There's been enough wars for no reason (or oil). Mrs May is clearly a far better diplomat than we've seen in our PM's for decades.


I take it you haven't seen May's voting history? What military action hasn't she supported?? She's a vile warmonger selling arms to despot regimes. Our bombs & missiles have devastated the Yemen.



Zaros said:


> But there's money to be made from people suffering Noush'. You of all people should know that, the decline of the NHS is a fine example.
> 
> Giving support to any of these lunatics is akin to being their accomplice.


Absolutely. How can people have any faith in a PM presiding over the sell off of our NHS? Talk about voting against your own interests.

Look out for our message in a bottle












rona said:


> That's how you see it, I see it as the people having more control. The EU was out of any control, they are a rule unto themselves and trampling all in their wake to the detriment of the majority but very very lucrative to those on the "inside"


If the Great repeal bill is pushed through control will be concentrated in the hands of a set of right wing extremists. Great.



Bisbow said:


> I am breaking a promise to myself by coming back om here but I want to answer you
> 
> You know that, I know that and so do all the people who voted out
> 
> The ones that don't are the narrow minded remainers who have no imagination and have to rely on "experts" and continually quote pieces from the press and wherever they can find any thing to prove we are fools and idiots, When I see another copied press release printed in huge letters as though shouting at us will be to their benefit I am afraid I have to laugh.
> They remind me of kids in the playground shouting about who the winner is, them or us
> 
> As you say, time alone will tell but I still think we will be better off out than in


Those who supported Trump had the same derision for experts as you do. Just look how well that's panning out 



stockwellcat said:


> History lesson.
> I suppose that's only fair seeing as Theresa May intends on using laws from Henry the 5th or 8th's time to put through the Great Repeal Bill


8ths. I thought you wanted parliamentary sovereignty.



DT said:


> @rona
> Rona, I am a member of the AWP but have to admit I have not read their bumf lately, despite just renevewing my membership, I know when I first joined the issue of live exports for slaughter were a hot topic.
> 
> The have been calls now we are leaving the eu to ban it, I'm with you 100 pet cent on this one.
> 
> Anyway, found this, not read it, interested what you make of it
> http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06504/SN06504.pdf


I've been reading AWPs tweets Sue. To me it looks as though they too seem concerned by brexit.

*Animal Welfare Party*‏@*AnimalsCount* Jan 6

Can we trust Leadsom's assurances that animal welfare &
enviro standards won't lower to clinch free trade deals?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38510423

*Animal Welfare Party*‏@*AnimalsCount* 5 Dec 2016

In the wake of a #*brexit* vote and the US presidential
election result @*StephenHawking8*
writes for the @*guardian*: *This is the most dangerous time for our planet *

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...phen-hawking-dangerous-time-planet-inequality

And tory related tweets -

*Animal Welfare Party*‏@*AnimalsCount* Feb 25

AWP utterly dismayed at actions of filibustering Conservative MP's thwarting the second reading of #*AnimalCruelty* sentencing bill yesterday












rona said:


> To be honest, that wouldn't surprise me if it actually happened, *but it wouldn't be anything to do with Brexit*


Don't be so sure. The tories are breaking EU laws on air pollution. No wonder they cant wait to drag us out 

*Britain receives final warning on 'shameful' air pollution levels https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b876ee8c-f397-11e6-a45f-cc1b99ad256c*

_The European Commission has threatened Britain with court action and hundreds of millions of pounds in fines for persistently breaching EU limits on air pollution._

_In a move described as shameful for the UK, the commission sent a "final warning" yesterday, accusing the country of failing to address breaches in 16 areas, including London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow._

_Britain is one of five EU countries served with the warning over illegal levels of nitrogen dioxide, which causes heart and lung diseases. Diesel cars - representing a third of those on British roads - are a big source of NO2. Air pollution from sources including road traffic, industry, farming and construction sites is linked to the early deaths of about 40,000 people a year in Britain and_…

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b876ee8c-f397-11e6-a45f-cc1b99ad256c

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...to-block-tougher-eu-car-emissions-tests#img-1

_The British government has been seeking to water down legislation in the directive which seeks to limit the emission of a series of pollutants other than NO2, including methane and ammonia. Officials claim that some of the measures proposed would unnecessarily increase the "administrative burden for industry and government", according to the briefing paper. The European parliament is due to vote on the proposals at the end of October_



rona said:


> Austerity is actually an EU policy


It is Tory austerity that has hammered us. "_We're all in it together"_ Remember? But of course point the finger at the EU & believe things well get better when we're out if it helps.

Oh look more EU imposed austerity.










And these are the people you are trusting with our future Rona.



Honeys mum said:


> If this is an example, no wonder we won.


No one has won. We've all lost.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Exactly Scrippy.
> 
> Although, in all probability, this thread might still be up and running.


:Hilarious


----------



## 1290423

MrsZee said:


> That sounds like a really good party! All in PF should join it!





noushka05 said:


> I take it you haven't seen May's voting history? What military action hasn't she supported?? She's a vile warmonger selling arms to despot regimes. Our bombs & missiles have devastated the Yemen.
> 
> Absolutely. How can people have any faith in a PM presiding over the sell off of our NHS? Talk about voting against your own interests.
> 
> Look out for our message in a bottle
> 
> View attachment 305866
> 
> 
> If the Great repeal bill is pushed through control will be concentrated in the hands of a set of right wing extremists. Great.
> 
> Those who supported Trump had the same derision for experts as you do. Just look how well that's panning out
> 
> 8ths. I thought you wanted parliamentary sovereignty.
> 
> I've been reading AWPs tweets Sue. To me it looks as though they too seem concerned by brexit.
> 
> *Animal Welfare Party*‏@*AnimalsCount* Jan 6
> 
> Can we trust Leadsom's assurances that animal welfare &
> enviro standards won't lower to clinch free trade deals?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38510423
> 
> *Animal Welfare Party*‏@*AnimalsCount* 5 Dec 2016
> 
> In the wake of a #*brexit* vote and the US presidential
> election result @*StephenHawking8*
> writes for the @*guardian*: *This is the most dangerous time for our planet *
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...phen-hawking-dangerous-time-planet-inequality
> 
> And tory related tweets -
> 
> *Animal Welfare Party*‏@*AnimalsCount* Feb 25
> 
> AWP utterly dismayed at actions of filibustering Conservative MP's thwarting the second reading of #*AnimalCruelty* sentencing bill yesterday
> 
> View attachment 305868
> 
> 
> Don't be so sure. The tories are breaking EU laws on air pollution. No wonder they cant wait to drag us out
> 
> *Britain receives final warning on 'shameful' air pollution levels https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b876ee8c-f397-11e6-a45f-cc1b99ad256c*
> 
> _The European Commission has threatened Britain with court action and hundreds of millions of pounds in fines for persistently breaching EU limits on air pollution._
> 
> _In a move described as shameful for the UK, the commission sent a "final warning" yesterday, accusing the country of failing to address breaches in 16 areas, including London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow._
> 
> _Britain is one of five EU countries served with the warning over illegal levels of nitrogen dioxide, which causes heart and lung diseases. Diesel cars - representing a third of those on British roads - are a big source of NO2. Air pollution from sources including road traffic, industry, farming and construction sites is linked to the early deaths of about 40,000 people a year in Britain and_…
> 
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b876ee8c-f397-11e6-a45f-cc1b99ad256c
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...to-block-tougher-eu-car-emissions-tests#img-1
> 
> _The British government has been seeking to water down legislation in the directive which seeks to limit the emission of a series of pollutants other than NO2, including methane and ammonia. Officials claim that some of the measures proposed would unnecessarily increase the "administrative burden for industry and government", according to the briefing paper. The European parliament is due to vote on the proposals at the end of October_
> 
> It is Tory austerity that has hammered us. "_We're all in it together"_ Remember? But of course point the finger at the EU & believe things well get better when we're out if it helps.
> 
> Oh look more EU imposed austerity.
> 
> View attachment 305867
> 
> 
> And these are the people you are trusting with our future Rona.
> 
> No one has won. We've all lost.


Re AWP. Yes they were noush, you and I had this conversation, and although I joined them prior to the referendum you know I had no Intension of voting anything other then out hence my support of the party campaigning for leave xxx


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Yes we can here protect them here in the UK but not in the rest of EU or don't they matter.


You seem to think we had way more influence than we did


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> You seem to think we had way more influence than we did


No, but we don't any now, do we.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> No, but we don't any now, do we.


About the same as we had anyway then


----------



## KittenKong

Good to report some possible good news. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...theresa-may-european-parliament-a7674391.html

















I just hope May and her crew don't block this proposal if it does become a possibility.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> If the Great repeal bill is pushed through control will be concentrated in the hands of a set of right wing extremists. Great


Probably been said before in this thread, but if there is one thing that sums up for me the pomposity and bombastic nationalism of the Tory Brexiters - even more than Rosindell's "humiliation" at having to use a "pink" passport - it's calling it the "Great" repeal bill. How can these people be taken seriously as grownups!


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Probably been said before in this thread, but if there is one thing that sums up for me the pomposity and bombastic nationalism of the Tory Brexiters - even more than Rosindell's "humiliation" at having to use a "pink" passport - it's calling it the "Great" repeal bill. How can these people be taken seriously as grownups!


Its pathetic. Its plain to see they're trying to whip up nationalistic sentiment to screw us by using the word 'Great'.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> No one has won. We've all lost.


In your world maybe but, you can always ,


----------



## rona

What like this?

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2010/5/2/cameron-eyes-great-repeal-bill

http://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/great-repeal-bill/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


>


You have a point there because the remainers always say who will we blame if Brexit turns out bad, well who will they blame for taking them out of the crumbling EU? Yes that's right...Us.

You (the remainers I mean) hushed the people that voted not to join the EC 40+ years ago and now we have had our say you don't stop moaning.

I would still vote leave and always will do if given an opportunity to do so again


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Good to report some possible good news.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...theresa-may-european-parliament-a7674391.html
> 
> View attachment 305872
> View attachment 305873
> 
> 
> I just hope May and her crew don't block this proposal if it does become a possibility.


That is up to the UK Government if they wish to do this not some foreign representative in Brussel's who cannot control his infatuation with a club that is falling to bits. If you want to keep your EU status nothing is stopping you moving to the continent and becoming a citizen of a member of that club, it's easy to do you know you get up from behind your keyboard and go to a country of your choice that is a member of the EU like Spain, Germany, Holland, France etc instead of complaining that the UK is leaving the EU not Europe.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> You have a point there because the remainers always say who will we blame if Brexit turns out bad, well who will they blame for taking them out of the crumbling EU? Yes that's right...Us.
> 
> You (the remainers I mean) hushed the people that voted not to join the EC 40+ years ago and now we have had our say you don't stop moaning.
> 
> I would still vote leave and always will do if given an opportunity to do so again


Well now!

Aren't you a proper little liar.

You said you weren't going to come back to this thread.

You just can't seem to help yourself can you...:Facepalm

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/america-strikes-back-at-syria.446397/page-2


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Well now!
> 
> Aren't you a proper little liar.
> 
> You said you weren't going to come back to this thread.
> 
> You just can't seem to help yourself can you...:Facepalm
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/america-strikes-back-at-syria.446397/page-2


Well I was bored.

Can you blame me commenting on a thread that is going around in circles because some people are:


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> Well I was bored.


And this is the best you could do to entertain yourself is it?

Haven't you got any imaginary friends?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> That is up to the UK Government if they wish to do this not some foreign representative in Brussel's who cannot control his infatuation with a club that is falling to bits. If you want to keep your EU status nothing is stopping you moving to the continent and becoming a citizen of a member of that club, it's easy to do you know you get up from behind your keyboard and go to a country of your choice that is a member of the EU like Spain, Germany, Holland, France etc instead of complaining that the UK is leaving the EU not Europe.


What leads you to say that the EU is 'falling to bits'?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Can you blame me commenting on a thread that is going around in circles because some people are:
> View attachment 305912


Going round in circles.. Maybe that's what you call it when more and more evidence is being posted as to why leaving is bad for the UK. All you seem to be able to come up with is we won the opinion poll. An opinion poll where you claim you knew what you were voting for then say you don't know the terms of leaving. You also state falsehoods such as we will leave the single market but still have access to the EEA. When asked why you think that, you leave the thread. You say the EU is breaking up, once again with no evidence. As proof you claimed Austria shows it as they will vote to leave.. they didn't. Wilders will gain showing the push towards leave, only he didn't. Popularism has been championed by Brexit and Trump.. brexit hasn't really achieved anything yet and is in a constant state of change in terms of what it actually means, Trump.. well what can we say about Trump and his approval ratings since he came into office. Could be that has improved since he pushed a button I suppose. Great record there.

As for @rona and "we have no influence" I'd like to know what the UK has done to push the agenda of the EU when it comes to animal rights. The system of proportional representation (a democracy) gives far more say to smaller groups like animal welfare than a system which means those groups are frozen out of the decision making process. How can the the country with the 3rd largest representation have no influence? I suppose you can argue it's less as people like farage don't bother to turn up to represent the UK in the process but only turn up to insult the rest of the parliament who are trying to get things done. What a champion of the leave campaign and doing what is best for the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> What leads you to say that the EU is 'falling to bits'?


Mr Junker has said he doesn't believe the EU will stay together or is this a fact the remainers choose to ignore?

*EU chief thinks the rest of Europe will fall apart during Brexit talks*
http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/11/eu-ch...l-fall-apart-during-brexit-talks-6442786/amp/

Oh hang on a minute us Brexit supporters aren't allowed to quote papers as only you remainers are allowed to do this. :Bored


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Going round in circles.. Maybe that's what you call it when more and more evidence is being posted as to why leaving is bad for the UK. All you seem to be able to come up with is we won the opinion poll. An opinion poll where you claim you knew what you were voting for then say you don't know the terms of leaving. You also state falsehoods such as we will leave the single market but still have access to the EEA. When asked why you think that, you leave the thread. You say the EU is breaking up, once again with no evidence. As proof you claimed Austria shows it as they will vote to leave.. they didn't. Wilders will gain showing the push towards leave, only he didn't. Popularism has been championed by Brexit and Trump.. brexit hasn't really achieved anything yet and is in a constant state of change in terms of what it actually means, Trump.. well what can we say about Trump and his approval ratings since he came into office. Could be that has improved since he pushed a button I suppose. Great record there.


It's only an opinion poll in your eyes. Let's round up 17.4 million people and you tell them to there faces by yourself, no one else but you, that this was an opinion poll. Bet you won't do it?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> It's only an opinion poll in your eyes. Let's round up 17.4 million people and you tell them to there faces by yourself, no one else but you, that this was an opinion poll. Bet you won't do it?


Ah so an attempt at intimidation rather than facts now.. says a lot, especially as you know very well 17.4 million people did not vote for the brexit as it is now. You've never provided reasoning why parliamentary documentation is false which states it was an opinion poll have you. Leaving was easier.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Ah so an attempt at intimidation rather than facts now.. says a lot, especially as you know very well 17.4 million people did not vote for the brexit as it is now.


Ahh but 17.4 million people voted for Brexit (which is still more than 16 million people) and you are dodging this crucial fact. The only people being intimidating are the remainers the brexitier have been very well behaved since the Referendum.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Haven't you got any imaginary friends?


 How insulting. But I won't protest on the streets because you choose to insult me I will just ignore your insulting comment.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Ahh but 17.4 million people voted for Brexit (which is still more than 16 million people) and you are dodging this crucial fact.


But unable to quantify what they voted for. Telling in itself. 37% of the electorate... Hardly a majority and explains why you and people like Teresa May are so afraid of letting people have a say when the terms are finalised. Of course I could list some of the the reasons why people voted leave including ones which had nothing to do with the actual question on the ballot paper. Then again you don't even know what you voted for do you.


----------



## noushka05

Like this wasn't predicted. Brexit is the ultimate betrayal of the younger generation.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> But unable to quantify what they voted for. Telling in itself. 37% of the electorate... Hardly a majority and explains why you and people like Teresa May are so afraid of letting people have a say when the terms are finalised.


Oh get over it man.
We are leaving the crumbling European empire called the EU. Even Junker himself a self proclaimed Eurocrat believes the EU won't stay together.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> That is up to the UK Government if they wish to do this not some foreign representative in Brussel's who cannot control his infatuation with a club that is falling to bits. If you want to keep your EU status nothing is stopping you moving to the continent and becoming a citizen of a member of that club, it's easy to do you know you get up from behind your keyboard and go to a country of your choice that is a member of the EU like Spain, Germany, Holland, France etc instead of complaining that the UK is leaving the EU not Europe.


So your argument is an unelected PM should decide whether those who wish to maintain EU citizenship at their expense should do or not?!

I don't know what your problem is quite frankly.

You say it'll be as easy to move abroad in the future as it is now. Did you know the government are prioritising on reducing immigration including from the EU?

You can't just go to a country of your choice and apply for citizenship you know, these take time with no guarantee of acceptance plus the huge financial cost. My EU passport gave me a right to travel, live, work and even start a business in the 27 nations!

EU citizens are going to find it much more difficult to live and work in the UK. As it is existing citizens don't yet know what their fate will be.

So, clearly with freedom of movement working both ways this right will end for UK citizens too, something overlooked by many leave voters it seems.

"We're not leaving Europe, We're leaving the EU" is another of those catchphrases used by May which makes absolutely no sense.

You also still argue the "club" is falling to bits. Austrians and the Dutch rejected the far right and the UK leaving has only strengthened the EU. Sorry if that disappoints you.

Besides the Common Market existed long before the UK joined.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat said:


> How insulting.


Really? 

Perhaps you should think about that especially after considering what you posted in response to me catching you out in another lie...

This 


stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 305912


It has phuq all in the way of relevance to those who never took part.:Wacky


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> So your argument is an unelected PM should decide whether those who wish to maintain EU citizenship at their expense should do or not?!
> 
> I don't know what your problem is quite frankly.
> 
> You say it'll be as easy to move abroad in the future as it is now. Did you know the government are prioritising on reducing immigration including from the EU?
> 
> You can't just go to a country of your choice and apply for citizenship you know, these take time with no guarantee of acceptance plus the huge financial cost. My EU passport gave me a right to travel, live, work and even start a business in the 27 nations!
> 
> EU citizens are going to find it much more difficult to live and work in the UK. As it is existing citizens don't yet know what their fate will be.
> 
> So, clearly with freedom of movement working both ways this right will end for UK citizens too, something overlooked by many leave voters it seems.
> 
> "We're not leaving Europe, We're leaving the EU" is another of those catchphrases used by May which makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> You also still argue the "club" is falling to bits. Austrians and the Dutch rejected the far right and the UK leaving has only strengthened the EU. Sorry if that disappoints you.
> 
> Besides the Common Market existed long before the UK joined.


You get over yourself as well.

We don't elect PMs in this country we elect parties and the Conservatives won the last Election in 2015.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Really?
> 
> Perhaps you should think about that especially after considering what you posted in response to me catching you out in another lie...
> 
> This
> 
> It has phuq all in the way of relevance to those who never took part.:Wacky


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Mr Junker has said he doesn't believe the EU will stay together or is this a fact the remainers choose to ignore?
> 
> *EU chief thinks the rest of Europe will fall apart during Brexit talks*
> http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/11/eu-ch...l-fall-apart-during-brexit-talks-6442786/amp/
> 
> Oh hang on a minute us Brexit supporters aren't allowed to quote papers as only you remainers are allowed to do this. :Bored


Mr Juncker said that he feared cracks would appear in the united approach of the 27 during the Brexit negotiations. You have to adopt a rather hyperbolic interpretation of that to think it points to the EU 'falling to bits' as you stated.

I'm afraid your last sentence seems to be a bit silly, though I would, with respect, suggest that any articles you do quote at least back up your point.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Mr Junker has said he doesn't believe the EU will stay together or is this a fact the remainers choose to ignore?
> 
> *EU chief thinks the rest of Europe will fall apart during Brexit talks*
> http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/11/eu-ch...l-fall-apart-during-brexit-talks-6442786/amp/
> 
> Oh hang on a minute us Brexit supporters aren't allowed to quote papers as only you remainers are allowed to do this. :Bored


So did you only read the title? You don't seem to realise we don't deny you the right to post links to papers. The difficulty is the links you post consist of just spin which is easily demolished. Look at the reality of what he is saying. Britain will try to divide opinion so the EU does not provide a united front when it comes to the negotiations. That is a far cry than the EU falling apart. Try again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So did you only read the title? You don't seem to realise we don't deny you the right to post links to papers. The difficulty is the links you post consist of just spin which is easily demolished. Look at the reality of what he is saying. Britain will try to divide opinion so the EU does not provide a united front when it comes to the negotiations. That is a far cry than the EU falling apart. Try again.


The stuff you post is remainer spin. What's your point? You still insist on arguing. You even trip yourself up in your posts and then edit the post in the hope no one sees.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The stuff you post is remainer spin. What's your point? You still insist on arguing


Difference is, since it's evidence based it is not spin. If you can't tell the difference it says something about your vote to leave. Almost as much as only being able to read a title and assuming it backs your comment.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Oh what, fecking hell, just had a text from Vodafone saying I now get 100 minutes, 100 texts and 500mb of data included in my plan when I'm traveling in the eurozone. I want to change my mind.



Oh no wait, just realised I'm not a child and weighed up more important factors.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Difference is, since it's evidence based it is not spin. If you can't tell the difference it says something.


Still spin.
You believe whom and whatever you want, we will see who is right in October 2018 when the deal is offered.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh what, fecking hell, just had a text from Vodafone saying I now get 100 minutes, 100 texts and 500mb of data included in my plan when I'm traveling in the eurozone. I want to change my mind.


In case you haven't noticed.. still at least a couple of years before we leave, if we leave.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Difference is, since it's evidence based it is not spin. If you can't tell the difference it says something about your vote to leave. Almost as much as only being able to read a title and assuming it backs your comment.


When will you get it into your head that people voted to leave, I made my decision but you cannot accept that. Get over it.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh what, fecking hell, just had a text from Vodafone saying I now get 100 minutes, 100 texts and 500mb of data included in my plan when I'm traveling in the eurozone. I want to change my mind.
> 
> Oh no wait, just realised I'm not a child and weighed up more important factors.


Did you bother to weigh up climate change? the single most important threat to life on earth.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well I was bored.
> 
> Can you blame me commenting on a thread that is going around in circles because some people are:
> View attachment 305912


Shows the mentality of the person holding the "Bad Losers" banner.


stockwellcat said:


> Mr Junker has said he doesn't believe the EU will stay together or is this a fact the remainers choose to ignore?
> 
> *EU chief thinks the rest of Europe will fall apart during Brexit talks*
> http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/11/eu-ch...l-fall-apart-during-brexit-talks-6442786/amp/
> 
> Oh hang on a minute us Brexit supporters aren't allowed to quote papers as only you remainers are allowed to do this. :Bored


Of course you have the right to post links to newspapers. The Metro free paper carried a four page cover advertisement advertising Vote Leave so I think their politics are obvious.



stockwellcat said:


> You get over yourself as well.
> 
> We don't elect PMs in this country we elect parties and the Conservatives won the last Election in 2015.


Yes, the Tories did win as you say, but at that time they were elected they were a comparatively moderate "Centre Right" party. Now they've become UKIP in all but name so the term, "Unelected" is justified I believe.

What's happened with the Tories is the equivalent of Blair being replaced by Corbyn during his time as PM. I'm sure you would argue that wasn't what the people voted for!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> When will you get it into your head that people voted to leave, I made my decision but you cannot accept that. Get over it.


Even leavers cant agree on the kind of brexit they want.


----------



## Goblin

You are forgetting KittyKong the manifesto, the promises under which the tories were elected also stated they would strengthen, not demolish, UK ties to the single market.



stockwellcat said:


> When will you get it into your head that people voted to leave, I made my decision but you cannot accept that. Get over it.


I've accepted you made that choice. Not an issue. The fact that you try defend an undefendable position could be admired in some circles.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Shows the mentality of the person holding the "Bad Losers" banner.
> 
> Of course you have the right to post links to newspapers. The Metro free paper carried a four page cover advertisement advertising Vote Leave so I think their politics are obvious.
> 
> Yes, the Tories did win as you say, but at that time it was comparatively moderate.
> 
> What's happened with the Tories is the equivalent of Blair being replaced by Corbyn during his time as PM. I'm sure you would argue that wasn't what the people voted for!


But Blair didn't get replaced by Corbyn Blair was ousted by Brown. So your facts are a bit wrong there. See why I don't believe so called experts who claim they can see into the future but get so many things wrong.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Even leavers cant agree on the kind of brexit they want.


The reigns aren't in our hands.

So does it matter as long as we leave the EU?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Again remainers you are so angry at those that voted to leave, but you forget someone your own side thought the Referendum was a joke, didn't take it seriously and didn't think there vote would count and voted leave. You are blaming the wrong people.


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> Did you bother to weigh up climate change? the single most important threat to life on earth.
> 
> View attachment 305932


No I didn't, because climates change with or without our intervention, that's a FACT. The north and south poles switch as well and there's feck all we can do about that. In fact they are overdue to switch.


----------



## 1290423

Wow! You have all been busy
And on a beautiful day like today, me ive been out there enjoying it with my dog, just incase the eu decide we're now allowed any once we leave:Bawling￼


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Wow! *You have all been busy*
> And on a beautiful day like today, me ive been out there enjoying it with my dog, just incase the eu decide we're now allowed any once we leave:Bawling￼


I only came indoors to get a salad


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Again remainers you are so angry at those that voted to leave, but you forget someone your own side thought the Referendum was a joke, didn't take it seriously and didn't think there vote would count and voted leave. You are blaming the wrong people.


Back to that. A non-binding referendum. Now you say it wasn't a true match of what the people of the UK would have wanted. Well done. Explains why May is so scared to allow people more of a say in what happens.


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Wow! You have all been busy
> And on a beautiful day like today, me ive been out there enjoying it with my dog, just incase the eu decide we're now allowed any once we leave:Bawling￼


I'm pretty sure when we leave the EU the sun (not the paper) goes with it. Makes perfect sense actually as the remoaners think we will be back in the dark ages. So make the most of it!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Back to that. A non-binding referendum. Now you say it wasn't a true match of what the people of the UK would have wanted. Well done.


In your eyes.

The supreme justices said it was up to the Government what it decided to do and the Government got the backing of Parliament to invoke article 50 and not to impose any Amendments. So it was totally ligit and above board.

If it was only an opinion poll how come Cameron said he would invoke article 50 the next day if leavers won? Instead he hot footed it into the sunset by resigning.


----------



## 1290423

How long we got left? Around 710 days?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> In your eyes.


No, you just said it.



> The supreme justices said it was up to the Government what it decided to do and the Government got the backing of Parliament to invoke article 50 and not to impose any Amendments. So it was total ligit and above board.


Yes, government decided not to abide by the will of the people. Not for the first time. Good thing about democracy.. it's not based on a single vote and people can and are campaigning to change direction.



> If it was only an opinion poll how come Cameron said he would invoke article 50 the next day if leavers won? Instead he hot footed it into the sunset by resigning.


How come 350million per week will not be going to the NHS?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> How come 350million per week will not be going to the NHS?


Cameron was campaigning to remain by the way.

In reply to this the Remainers lied as well plenty of times. Come on Cameron and Osborne lied, and lied and lied and lied to the UK public for 5 long years.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> But unable to quantify what they voted for. Telling in itself. 37% of the electorate... Hardly a majority and explains why you and people like Teresa May are so afraid of letting people have a say when the terms are finalised. Of course I could list some of the the reasons why people voted leave including ones which had nothing to do with the actual question on the ballot paper. Then again you don't even know what you voted for do you.


Hmmm.....


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Cameron was campaigning to remain by the way.


Sometimes wonder 



> Remainers lied as well plenty of times.


The core of the remain campaign was based on truth. Core of the leave campaign was based on lies.

Politicians lie. Evidence doesn't. Evidence shows the UK will be worse off outside the EU. You haven't been able to show evidence for reasons to leave.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Hmmm.....
> View attachment 305933
> View attachment 305934


Hmmm.

Got nothing new to say @KittenKong but dig up the past. Is that somewhere you live, in the past I mean? There's plenty I would copy and paste you said but I don't live in the past.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Got nothing new to say @KittenKong but dig up the past. Is that somewhere you live, in the past I mean? There's plenty I would copy and paste you said but I don't live in the past.


This is what you voted for. Nothing like what you now claim to have voted for.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> This is what you voted for. Nothing like what you now claim to have voted for.


I did not vote for the past.
You have a warped mind seriously.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> The core of the remain campaign was based on truth. Core of the leave campaign was based on lies.


That's a matter of your opinion not fact.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Do I did not vote for the past.
> You have a warped mind seriously.


Totally invalidates your argument (and others) that people knew what they were voting for on the day doesn't it. You certainly didn't vote for the future.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> But Blair didn't get replaced by Corbyn Blair was ousted by Brown. So your facts are a bit wrong there. See why I don't believe so called experts who claim they can see into the future but get so many things wrong.


No, Corbyn didn't replace Blair as we know, but Brown was as moderate as Blair was politically.

Your argument would certainly stand up if Kenneth Clarke for example was elected leader.

Yes, experts do get things wrong from time to time. They're human after all and none of us are perfect.

I would still prefer an experienced surgeon to operate on me than the bloke down the road who's, "Good with his hands" though!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Totally invalidates your argument (and others) that people knew what they were voting for on the day doesn't it. You certainly didn't vote for the future.


What you banging on about now? :Wacky

You voted the way you did. I and many others voted the way they did. Get over it.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Evidence shows the UK will be worse off outside the EU.


That is yet another a lie. You keep trotting them out don't you? There is no evidence that shows the UK will be worse off outside the EU. Proving a future outcome is impossible by definition.


----------



## suewhite

Goblin said:


> Totally invalidates your argument (and others) that people knew what they were voting for on the day doesn't it. You certainly didn't vote for the future.


Why do you take it upon yourself to know the reasons people voted or that they didn't vote for the future? you seem to enjoy belittling people who do not have the same views as you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

suewhite said:


> Why do you take it upon yourself to know the reasons people voted or that they didn't vote for the future? you seem to enjoy belittling people who do not have the same views as you.


Thank you for saying this.

Yes it's called bullying @Goblin


----------



## KittenKong

suewhite said:


> Why do you take it upon yourself to know the reasons people voted or that they didn't vote for the future? you seem to enjoy belittling people who do not have the same views as you.


I don't agree. Goblin is simply responding to those who cannot accept his own personal views and good for him for doing so.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh what, fecking hell, just had a text from Vodafone saying I now get 100 minutes, 100 texts and 500mb of data included in my plan when I'm traveling in the eurozone. I want to change my mind.
> 
> Oh no wait, just realised I'm not a child and weighed up more important factors.


Apologies if you have done so already in the thread, but could I ask what were the 'adult' factors that persuaded you?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Apologies if you have done so already in the thread, but could I ask what were the 'adult' factors that persuaded you?


Why do we have to explain ourselves?

It was a free democratic vote.

The Referendum results are now being respected and acted upon.

What was your "adult reasons for voting the way you did?"

If the Referendum results where to remain wouldn't you expect them to be acted upon?


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> The core of the remain campaign was based on truth.


Well your bound to say that aren't you. But as you have said to us many times, show us the proof.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Why do we have to explain ourselves?
> 
> It was a free democratic vote.
> 
> The Referendum results are now being respected and acted upon.
> 
> What was your "adult reasons for voting the way you did?"
> 
> If the Referendum results where to remain wouldn't you expect them to be acted upon?


I will detail my own reasons to you tomorrow when I have more time. Suffice it to say that I think the future of humanity is better served by the blurring of national barriers than by their reinforcement or reintroduction.

For now, though, I would point out that I did not ask Dr Pepper to explain anything; I merely requested information as to which factors were taken into account. And I did so, if I may hazard an opinion, with considerably more politeness than you seem to exhibit in many of your posts.


----------



## suewhite

KittenKong said:


> I don't agree. Goblin is simply responding to those who cannot accept his own personal views and good for him for doing so.


You don't have to agree with me but that is my opinion just as Goblin has his even if put across in a very dogmatic way.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I will explain my own reasons to you tomorrow when I have more time.
> 
> For now, though, I would point out that I did not ask Dr Pepper to explain anything; I merely requested information as to which factors were taken into account. And I did so, if I may hazard an opinion, with considerably more politeness than you seem to exhibit in many of your posts.


Well @Goblin wants explainations off everyone that voted leave. Sorry of I have exhibited pointless reasons in your eyes but that is your opinion.

You seem to be avoid the question as well saying that you will explain tomorrow.

No one, I repeat no one has to give an explaination for the reason why they voted the way they did as it was a free Democratic vote. I have my reasons, like the next person next to me and you have your reasons for wanting to vote the way out did on Referendum day and neither of us owes an explaination. To carry on badgering someone for an explaination is a form of bullying as an explanation is not owed at all.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> What you banging on about now? :Wacky
> 
> You voted the way you did. I and many others voted the way they did. Get over it.





stockwellcat said:


> Thank you for saying this.
> 
> Yes it's called bullying @Goblin


Isn't being told to get over it not a form of bullying?



stockwellcat said:


> Why do we have to explain ourselves?
> 
> It was a free democratic vote.
> 
> The Referendum results are now being respected and acted upon.
> 
> What was your "adult reasons for voting the way you did?"
> 
> If the Referendum results where to remain wouldn't you expect them to be acted upon?


Are they? There was nothing on the referendum paper that asked to leave the EEA and the single market, only the EU.

May and her government have taken it on board themselves exactly what Brexit will mean: Complete isolation from the rest of Europe and withdrawal from the single market.

And of course the 48% of voters have vanished from the radar and the vote in NI and Scotland has also been dismissed as irrelevant.

Everyone is united in agreement of course aren't they......


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Isn't being told to get over it not a form of bullying?


 No, when the other people are constantly badgering you for an explaination when their questions have been answered over and over again. Can't you just accept people voted the way they did because some people got ignored for 40+ years when they voted against joining the EC and others saw sense.



> Are they? There was nothing on the referendum paper that asked to leave the EEA and the single market, only the EU.
> 
> May and her government have taken it on board themselves exactly what Brexit will mean: Complete isolation from the rest of Europe and withdrawal from the single market.
> 
> And of course the 48% of voters have vanished from the radar and the vote in NI and Scotland has also been dismissed as irrelevant.
> 
> Everyone is united in agreement of course aren't they......


I have explained this to you before (so yet again I am repeating myself) from research I have done that the Single Market and the EEA come tied in with the EU, being a member of both or either means the UK stays tied to the EU. The UK voted to leave the EU so it means leaving these as well. But yet again I explained this to you a while ago and you chose with all the other remainers on here to ignore this. I don't need to post links to explain myself, try doing your own research without using other people's opinions to back you up.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> Well your bound to say that aren't you. But as you have said to us many times, show us the proof.


Do I need to post the same thing as I have for DT 3 times already on what the EU has done and helped the UK with when he couldn't repricate and do similar. Instead I suppose we have the lies of the leave campaign.. EU run by unelected bureaucrats.. UK has no control of immigration. UK has no sovereignty. Satori ignores those doesn't he. Plenty of facts on the remain side. Still waiting for them from the leave side. This when it's been demonstrated that leave voters didn't know what they were actually voting for whereas at least remain voters knew what the EU has accomplished as a baseline.



KittenKong said:


> Isn't being told to get over it not a form of bullying?


No it's called being defensive when you have no arguments to the points being raised. You'll notice it's a common theme from the leave campaigners.



> Are they? There was nothing on the referendum paper that asked to leave the EEA and the single market, only the EU.


Ah but they'll say it was obvious, despite the fact evidence on this thread (including their own posts) show otherwise. Just as they'll argue and point out the majority they had for a non-binding referendum was a one off and not a true representation of the majority of the electorate, yet alone the population.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well @Goblin wants explainations off everyone that voted leave. Sorry of I have exhibited pointless reasons in your eyes but that is your opinion.
> 
> You seem to be avoid the question as well saying that you will explain tomorrow.
> 
> No one, I repeat no one has to give an explaination for the reason why they voted the way they did as it was a free Democratic vote. I have my reasons, like the next person next to me and you have your reasons for wanting to vote the way out did on Referendum day and neither of us owes an explaination. To carry on badgering someone for an explaination is a form of bullying as an explanation is not owed at all.


It's a reasonable request to ask for why someone voted the way they did. The thread title asked the question after all. Surely if you're proud of the way you voted you should say so and not become defensive about it and telling others to "Get over it as we won" or words to that effect isn't helpful.

I am proud of the way I voted and have said so and why on a public forum.

Having said that I do respect others rights to privacy and keeping their reasons to themselves. It doesn't justify the, "We won" rhetoric however. With that kind of feedback is it any surprise people ask for reasons.

Perhaps saying something like my views are confidential but I respect the way you voted and your concerns would go down better with others.

Respect works both ways.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Do I need to post the same thing as I have for DT 3 times already on what the EU has done and helped the UK with when he couldn't repricate and do similar. Instead I suppose we have the lies of the leave campaign.. EU run by unelected bureaucrats.. UK has no control of immigration. UK has no sovereignty. Satori ignores those doesn't he. Plenty of facts on the remain side. Still waiting for them from the leave side. This when it's been demonstrated that leave voters didn't know what they were actually voting for whereas at least remain voters knew what the EU has accomplished as a baseline.


Yet again you aim to belittle leave voters by putting them down.


----------



## Goblin

suewhite said:


> Why do you take it upon yourself to know the reasons people voted or that they didn't vote for the future?


Well we can base some of it on what was mentioned here which is far from their initial position when they voted. We can also look at information gleaned after the referendum where people were asked why they voted the way they did. Now I am quite happy if people could explain decision with facts about how the future looks rosy outside the EU. Seems to be lacking though when looking at it based upon reality and the way things work.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> No, when the other people are constantly badgering you for an explaination when their questions have been answered over and over again. Can't you just accept people voted the way they did because some people got ignored for 40+ years when they voted against joining the EC and others saw sense.
> 
> I have explained this to you before (so yet again I am repeating myself) from research I have done that the Single Market and the EEA come tied in with the EU, being a member of both or either means the UK stays tied to the EU. The UK voted to leave the EU so it means leaving these as well. But yet again I explained this to you a while ago and you chose with all the other remainers on here to ignore this. I don't need to post links to explain myself, try doing your own research without using other people's opinions to back you up.


Yes, but Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are NOT in the EU so how can you argue these countries are tied to the EU?

Oh yes, this vile xenophobic far right government are putting the reduction of immigration as their No.1 priory at the expense of everything else.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> It's a reasonable request to ask for why someone voted the way they did. The thread title asked the question after all. Surely if you're proud of the way you voted you should say so and not become defensive about it and telling others to "Get over it as we won" or words to that effect isn't helpful.
> 
> I am proud of the way I voted and have said so and why on a public forum.
> 
> Having said that I do respect others rights to privacy and keeping their reasons to themselves. It doesn't justify the, "We won" rhetoric however. With that kind of feedback is it any surprise people ask for reasons.
> 
> Perhaps saying something like my views are confidential but I respect the way you voted and your concerns would go down better with others.
> 
> Respect works both ways.


Respect does work both ways and remainers aren't respecting the way the Referendum went. So let's start that again. Who isn't respecting who?

Your vote in an election or Referendum is personal so no you don't have the right to ask for an explanation of why that person voted the way they did.

40+ years of being silenced by those that voted to join the EC is some of the reasons why people voted the way they did. That's 40+ years, a long time, in some instances a life time. Other people voted the way they did because they thought the Referendum was a joke, their vote wouldn't be counted and they thought the Referendum results wouldn't be upheld and they where remainers, they admitted this themselves the very next day after the Referendum vote. I have posted links for reference purposes a while ago so go back through the thread and find them. Others voted the way they did because they said they would always vote this way if given the chance, others simply weren't happy with the EU. Hope you are happy with these explainations?

I too am proud I voted the way I did.

But you don't respect others privacy as you keep asking for explainations. Respect goes both ways remember.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> No, when the other people are constantly badgering you for an explaination when their questions have been answered over and over again. Can't you just accept people voted the way they did because some people got ignored for 40+ years when they voted against joining the EC and others saw sense.


The only reasoning given by people has been shown to be false.



> I have explained this to you before (so yet again I am repeating myself) from research I have done that the Single Market and the EEA come tied in with the EU, being a member of both or either means the UK stays tied to the EU.


Yet you argued recently that leaving means we could still trade within the EEA even when outside the single market. You change constantly.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> The only reasoning given by people has been shown to be false.
> 
> Yet you argued recently that leaving means we could still trade within the EEA even when outside the single market. You change constantly.


I admit I made a mistake about the EEA and you're right we would have to join it to be able to have access. But the UK is leaving the EU which means leaving the Single Market and Common Market as that means as you know the UK would have to abide to the ECJ and as TM has said leaving the EU means not being tied to the ECJ to.

No disrespect but you change constantly as well and so do your posts as you post something hoping others don't see it and edit it.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Respect does work both ways and remainers aren't respecting the way the Referendum went. So let's start that again. Who isn't respecting who?


You aren't respecting the democratic process. You admit the referendum does not represent what the electorate actually want. I respect the non-binding referendum result. It shows more needs to be done. It shows the benefits to the UK needs to be highlighted better. It shows the government wasn't liked. It showed the UK needs to do more within the EU and to demonstrate it's value and influence. Does not mean I respect the way this has been used to push the UK in a direction which will damage it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Meanwhile we have lots of **** from all sides.








Thank you. May who ditched Gibraltar. Tusk who threw us to Spain like piece of meat and those lovely Brits, that feel sorry for " poor Spain".
Sickening.

It feels like the best would be mass suicide to please all. Could we just vanish like Pompeii?

Till Trump is told by Ivanka, that Ceuta refuels Russian submarines etc...so maybe the use of our navy base is still on?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You aren't respecting the democratic process. You admit the referendum does not represent what the electorate actually want. I respect the non-binding referendum result. It shows more needs to be done. It shows the benefits to the UK needs to be highlighted better. It shows the government wasn't liked. It showed the UK needs to do more within the EU and to demonstrate it's value and influence. Does not mean I respect the way this has been used to push the UK in a direction which will damage it.


It's not non-binding anymore. The Supreme Court Justices said that it was up to the Government what they wish to do regarding the results as UK law cannot interfere with politics. The results have been respected and acted upon. Again I say to you if the remain side won wouldn't you expect the results to be acted upon if it was a reverse case scenario?

The UK couldn't do anymore, the EU wasn't willing to budge and give the UK a fair deal when Cameron seeked out a new deal with the EU and instead got a lame deal. The UK will be free to do any deals it wishes in 2 years time.


----------



## suewhite

Goblin said:


> Well we can base some of it on what was mentioned here which is far from their initial position when they voted. We can also look at information gleaned after the referendum where people were asked why they voted the way they did. Now I am quite happy if people could explain decision with facts about how the future looks rosy outside the EU. Seems to be lacking though when looking at it based upon reality and the way things work.


Goblin would you be happy if someone posted there view of the future outside the EU ( who knows the future) I don't think it will be as you put it rosy, but my personal opinion was it was the best option and people go with there gut feelings well I did after reading and listening to both sides.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 305949
> View attachment 305950
> View attachment 305951


There was no need to post us proof on your newspaper collection kk


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 305949
> View attachment 305950
> View attachment 305951


Murdoch press @KittenKong the only one missing is your favourite which you admit to reading :

























I have nothing further to say, except it must be true you told us so  as you read this newspaper after all.


----------



## Goblin

suewhite said:


> Goblin would you be happy if someone posted there view of the future outside the EU ( who knows the future) I don't think it will be as you put it rosy, but my personal opinion was it was the best option and people go with there gut feelings well I did after reading and listening to both sides.


Future is not known but you can base possibilities on facts of today as a foundation. If your foundation is quicksand to start with... Gut feeling rather than informed decision about something which after implementation, cannot be reversed. Wouldn't it be better if the public actually had the option of an informed choice once the terms of leaving are known for example?

Quite telling that May knows she will not be able to get what she promised and is refusing to allow it. Quite telling that she's quite happy to say "no deal better than bad deal" when they haven't even calculated the impact of "no deal". Instead of details you get top level platitudes. Instead of preparing the country for what's ahead you get empty promises.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Hmmm.....
> View attachment 305933
> View attachment 305934


Miaow miaow. Do you read other threads in the forum or just this one?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Oh yes, this vile xenophobic far right government are putting the reduction of immigration as their No.1 priory at the expense of everything else.


If you think they are putting that in front of lining their own pockets with trade deals then I question your judgement and say to you that you are far more influenced by the press than any leave voter ever was


----------



## grumpy goby

rona said:


> If you think *they are putting that in front of lining their own pockets with trade deals* then I question your judgement and say to you that you are far more influenced by the press than any leave voter ever was


This sentiment makes more sense than any other prediction of what may or may not happen.....

They are politicians after all.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> No I didn't, because climates change with or without our intervention, that's a FACT. The north and south poles switch as well and there's feck all we can do about that. In fact they are overdue to switch.


Can you explain what you mean by the north & south poles switch? References would be really appreciated.

Its an unequivocal fact that burning fossil fuels releases trapped C02 into the atmosphere. The climate change we see today is not a force of nature, human activity is responsible - we are destroying our living world & if we don't act now we are heading for complete irreversible climate breakdown. Please read these facts Dr Pepper - https://eos.org/editors-vox/respond...s&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EosBuzz033117

Here's what a couple of highly trusted individuals say on the matter -
*
David Attenborough turns 90: 
Naturalist issues stark climate change warning *http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...t-apathy-towards-climate-change-a7012986.html

The veteran broadcaster spoke about the fate of humanity and outlined what he believes to be the biggest threat to human existence: climate change and political apathy towards it.

When asked by the _Independent_ if the world should be more concerned by our deteriorating environment than we are about the threat of terror attacks, his answer was simple: "Yes".

"Climate change will affect the whole of humanity, while terrorist attacks will only affect a small section of humanity. Of course, you wouldn't say that if you were related to someone who had been beheaded or blown up or murdered. But humanity is facing a very big, slow, long, drawn-out threat, and that is to do with the way the weather is changing and the size of the population."

Sir David reiterated his warning during an interview with the _Associated Press _to mark his 90th birthday on Sunday, when he explained the most critical problems facing the natural world today. *Top of his list was rising temperatures caused by climate change - "a very, very serious worry indeed".*


----------



## noushka05

Do any brexiteers care anything at all about wildlife & our environment? No one can say they weren't warned - experts in the progressive remain camp were shouting it from the rooftops.

*Keith Taylor MEP*‏Verified account

Well this is terrifying, if not entirely unexpected.
We will continue resisting.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ge-and-illegal-wildlife-measure-a7674706.html

UK to 'scale down' climate change & illegal wildlife measures to bring in post-Brexit trade, secret documents reveal.....

*Keith Taylor MEP*‏Verified [email protected]*GreenKeithMEP*
Env Minister @*AndreaLeadsom* refuses to
answer question on which EU laws she 
says might not be converted to UK law 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...itter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#incoming-962673


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Future is not known but you can base possibilities on facts of today as a foundation. If your foundation is quicksand to start with... Gut feeling rather than informed decision about something which after implementation, cannot be reversed. Wouldn't it be better if the public actually had the option of an informed choice once the terms of leaving are known for example?


Once again I'm feeling rather stupid. All I saw on my referendum slip was remain or leave. Missed the whole bit where it was to spend best part of three years talking about it and seeing if it would be worthwhile to leave, at which point we could all go and have another say.

Goblin, once you understand what was on the ballot paper ie REMAIN or LEAVE, then you'll realise most of your arguments are inconsequential.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> Can you explain what you mean by the north & south poles switch? References would be really appreciated.
> 
> Its an unequivocal fact that burning fossil fuels releases trapped C02 into the atmosphere. The climate change we see today is not a force of nature, human activity is responsible - we are destroying our living world & if we don't act now we are heading for complete irreversible climate breakdown. Please read these facts Dr Pepper - https://eos.org/editors-vox/respond...s&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EosBuzz033117
> 
> Here's what a couple of highly trusted individuals say on the matter -
> *
> David Attenborough turns 90:
> Naturalist issues stark climate change warning *http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...t-apathy-towards-climate-change-a7012986.html
> 
> The veteran broadcaster spoke about the fate of humanity and outlined what he believes to be the biggest threat to human existence: climate change and political apathy towards it.
> 
> When asked by the _Independent_ if the world should be more concerned by our deteriorating environment than we are about the threat of terror attacks, his answer was simple: "Yes".
> 
> "Climate change will affect the whole of humanity, while terrorist attacks will only affect a small section of humanity. Of course, you wouldn't say that if you were related to someone who had been beheaded or blown up or murdered. But humanity is facing a very big, slow, long, drawn-out threat, and that is to do with the way the weather is changing and the size of the population."
> 
> Sir David reiterated his warning during an interview with the _Associated Press _to mark his 90th birthday on Sunday, when he explained the most critical problems facing the natural world today. *Top of his list was rising temperatures caused by climate change - "a very, very serious worry indeed".*
> 
> View attachment 305936


There's plenty of information on the poles switching, you could do worse than starting with the NASA website.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Once again I'm feeling rather stupid. All I saw on my referendum slip was remain or leave. Missed the whole bit where it was to spend best part of three years talking about it and seeing if it would be worthwhile to leave, at which point we could all go and have another say.


Ignoring the bit about it's a non-binding referendum. Ignoring the bit that when it damages the country we cannot simply say we'll go back. Ignoring the bit about even leavers admit it's not the "will of the people" which is why they can only cling on the referendum result. Ignoring the fact that you do not even know what leave means...

When your sole argument as to reasons to leave revolve around 37% of the electorate voted for something they cannot understand, it says a lot.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> If you think they are putting that in front of lining their own pockets with trade deals then I question your judgement and say to you that you are far more influenced by the press than any leave voter ever was


Yes but didn't they try to negotiate free market access with the ending of free movement but were rightly told by the EU they couldn't cherry-pick?

Thus the ending of free movement is priority for the government.

As for your comments on newspaper etc. influence many do take what they read as gospel. They acted as a huge advertising campaign for leave during the referendum.

As for influencing me, far from it!

You can't tell me Sun readers took no notice of this advice???


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> It's a reasonable request to ask for why someone voted the way they did. The thread title asked the question after all. Surely if you're proud of the way you voted you should say so and not become defensive about it and telling others to..


Matter of opinion that! I don't happen to think it is a reasonable question! If it were there would be no need for the ballot box to be secret!

How about I ask you how much you earn?

Whom and why people choose to vote is entirely up to them, it's neither your business or anyone else's. There ya go, there's a fact for you!


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> You can't tell me Sun readers took no notice of this advice???
> View attachment 305992


I'm sure some do, I use to work with a woman who believed everything the Sun said, if it said black was white she would believe them.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> You can't tell me Sun readers took no notice of this advice???
> View attachment 305992


Probably not. Waaay too many words for many Sun readers.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Yes but didn't they try to negotiate free market access with the ending of free movement but were rightly told by the EU they couldn't cherry-pick?
> 
> Thus the ending of free movement is priority for the government.
> 
> As for your comments on newspaper etc. influence many do take what they read as gospel. They acted as a huge advertising campaign for leave during the referendum.
> 
> As for influencing me, far from it!
> 
> You can't tell me Sun readers took no notice of this advice???
> View attachment 305992


Why do you assume that Sun readers were influenced by it if you were not? Do you think you have a superior intellect to readers of the Sun? If so on what do you base that assumption? Many of us have stated on this thread and a recent poll that @rona posted that we do not read newspapers whereas you do and you have also acknowledged that you do read the Sun. Newspapers can only act as a huge advertising campaign as you put it if people actually read them which as we have already gone over ad nauseam in this thread very few people do these days.


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 305989


Here's the bright spark's video. :Hilarious





He's not very articulate is he, so hardly the great orator.

He has, nonetheless, raised my curiosity, because of one word in particular.

And that word is 'Soveriegntry':Facepalm

During an interview he was asked; _'What's it like living in Britain today?'
_
His answer, _'Much like Poland really'

'Except there's not many Polish people in Poland anymore'

_
Fancy that, someone like him representing the Leavers.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Once we were useful. Now it is" lets get rid of our most vulnerable members".
What is the point? British people live there, working hard for their living the same like in motherland.
Spain ceded it in 1713. Spain will nit let go even of Isla de Perejil.
( uninhabited, empty,but it is Spanish, so while armada went to fight for it)

Thank you Guardian for trading your own for holidays and corrida.








obviously betrayal of your own mist faithful defender The Rock of Gibraltar will send the right message:
Run and grab, UK is dead.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> It's not non-binding anymore. The Supreme Court Justices said that it was up to the Government what they wish to do regarding the results as UK law cannot interfere with politics. The results have been respected and acted upon. Again I say to you if the remain side won wouldn't you expect the results to be acted upon if it was a reverse case scenario?


Actually is still is non-binding. Supreme Court Justices said the referendum was not binding and parliament had to have a say over policy. Great for democracy. Parliament can be pressured and can change it's minds reflecting the actual will of the majority.



> The UK couldn't do anymore, the EU wasn't willing to budge and give the UK a fair deal when Cameron seeked out a new deal with the EU and instead got a lame deal. The UK will be free to do any deals it wishes in 2 years time.


What like the ability to kick EU immigrants out who didn't have employment and were a drain on resources. Already capable of doing that only people like May never implemented it. Couldn't exactly admit that could they though. When the EU policies are there but not used, they are hardly going to bend over backwards to have additional rules in place are they. Thing is the UK will not be able to do any deals it wishes. We will be in the weaker negotiation position for many trade deals. Outside of those we will be forced in general to conform to WTO rules... rules created not through a democratic process but by unelected bureaucrats. So just how do leave voters support leaving due to the lie of being under "unelected bureaucrats" to supporting really being under "unelected bureaucrats" and cheering about it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Actually is still is non-binding. Supreme Court Justices said the referendum was not binding and parliament had to have a say over policy. Great for democracy. Parliament can be pressured and can change it's minds reflecting the actual will of the majority.
> 
> What like the ability to kick EU immigrants out who didn't have employment and were a drain on resources. Already capable of doing that only people like May never implemented it. Couldn't exactly admit that could they though. When the EU policies are there but not used, they are hardly going to bend over backwards to have additional rules in place are they. Thing is the UK will not be able to do any deals it wishes. We will be in the weaker negotiation position for many trade deals. Outside of those we will be forced in general to conform to WTO rules... rules created not through a democratic process but by unelected bureaucrats. So just how do leave voters support leaving due to the lie of being under "unelected bureaucrats" to supporting really being under "unelected bureaucrats" and cheering about it?


Stop dragging me back into your petty debate. I am not interested in what you have to say any longer. The UK voted leave get over yourself.

There is something beyond this website and its called life, I have my own personal issues I am trying to deal with at the moment and don't need you small minded petty responses to what I said, everyone is allowed an opinion you know. I only responded because an email was received in my inbox. I have now unlinked myself from this thread so I stop getting emails everytime someone responds.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Stop dragging me back into your petty debate. I am not interested in what you have to say any longer. The UK voted leave get over yourself.
> 
> There is something beyond this website and its called life, I have my own personal issues I am trying to deal with at the moment and don't need you small minded petty responses to what I said, everyone is allowed an opinion you know. I only responded because an email was received in my inbox. I have now unlinked myself from this thread so I stop getting emails everytime someone responds.


I know you are having a rough time at the moment, but really, people have said I can be rude, but Bl**dy hell what's this all about, I don't think I've ever been that rude to one person, just thread thread we are talking about..


----------



## KittenKong

DT said:


> Matter of opinion that! I don't happen to think it is a reasonable question! If it were there would be no need for the ballot box to be secret!
> 
> How about I ask you how much you earn?
> 
> Whom and why people choose to vote is entirely up to them, it's neither your business or anyone else's. There ya go, there's a fact for you!


I think you've misread my post.

I said I don't see any problem asking others why they voted the way they did, but did say people have a right to confidentiality, but no need to be rude about it, nor reply with words to the effect of, "We won, you lost, get over it".


rottiepointerhouse said:


> Why do you assume that Sun readers were influenced by it if you were not? Do you think you have a superior intellect to readers of the Sun? If so on what do you base that assumption? Many of us have stated on this thread and a recent poll that @rona posted that we do not read newspapers whereas you do and you have also acknowledged that you do read the Sun. Newspapers can only act as a huge advertising campaign as you put it if people actually read them which as we have already gone over ad nauseam in this thread very few people do these days.


I don't consider myself to have a superior intellect to Sun readers. Just they're the most popular "news"paper read by millions.

The Sun themselves believe seven out of ten readers take note and act on their "advice".

Do you honestly believe Leave would have won if they backed Remain? I doubt that very much.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> I think you've misread my post.
> 
> I said I don't see any problem asking others why they voted the way they did, but did say people have a right to confidentiality, but no need to be rude about it, nor reply with words to the effect of, "We won, you lost, get over it".
> 
> .


There you go again, imagination running wild, please show me where I said we won, you lost get over it?


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> The Sun themselves believe seven out of ten readers take note and act on their "advice".


Are you being serious, do you really think someone would actually act on the advice of the Sun .?
I personally don't know anyone who would act on the advice of any newsaper.


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> I know you are having a rough time at the moment, but really, people have said I can be rude, but Bl**dy hell what's this all about, I don't think I've ever been that rude to one person, just thread thread we are talking about..


Words fail me, that is really below the belt. No need for that at all.
I think it's time this thread was closed.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


> *Are you being serious, do you really think someone would actually act on the advice of the Sun .?*
> I personally don't know anyone who would act on the advice of any newsaper.


Yes, I'm sure there are people out they that believe whats printed in it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honeys mum said:


> I think it's time this thread was closed.


I've been saying that for months


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> I think you've misread my post.
> 
> I said I don't see any problem asking others why they voted the way they did, but did say people have a right to confidentiality, but no need to be rude about it, nor reply with words to the effect of, "We won, you lost, get over it".
> 
> I don't consider myself to have a superior intellect to Sun readers. Just they're the most popular "news"paper read by millions.
> 
> The Sun themselves believe seven out of ten readers take note and act on their "advice".
> 
> Do you honestly believe Leave would have won if they backed Remain? I doubt that very much.


So because the Sun believe that 7 out of 10 readers act on their advice, you believe it too. What evidence do they have that 7 out of 10 readers acted on their advice? Why do you believe this statement from the Sun but not other statements they make? Are you not guilty of falling for their claims just as much as you claim other people do? In answer to your question Yes I do believe leave would still have won without the backing of the Sun.


----------



## stuaz

Honeys mum said:


> Are you being serious, do you really think someone would actually act on the advice of the Sun .?
> I personally don't know anyone who would act on the advice of any newsaper.


Also who would actually believe a newspaper when they say X our of 10 people read there newspapers.... its just basic sales spin.

Newspapers like the Sun, often align themselves with what they believe the mainstream opinion will be. The editors in charge of theses things aren't stupid. Logic dictates they will sell more newspapers if they align themselves with what 'they' think the general population want. This is why the Sun as an example famously switched sides with Tony Blair and supported Labour and then later switched back to support Conservatives.

Edited To add: Little fun fact. The Mail, supported Leave, but the Mail on Sunday supported Remain. The Times backed Remain, but the Sunday Times supported Leave, The Express went for Leave but The Star remained mostly neutral... 
They know there readers, no conspiracy's about influence here... just targeted sales


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> I've been saying that for months




I don't think youv'e read my post roperly.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Stop dragging me back into your petty debate. I am not interested in what you have to say any longer. The UK voted leave get over yourself.
> 
> There is something beyond this website and its called life, I have my own personal issues I am trying to deal with at the moment and don't need you small minded petty responses to what I said, everyone is allowed an opinion you know. I only responded because an email was received in my inbox. I have now unlinked myself from this thread so I stop getting emails everytime someone responds.


You are the one posting things which are simply false. Simple answer.. don't post falsehoods.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> There's plenty of information on the poles switching, you could do worse than starting with the NASA website.


Well firstly thank you for directing me to the best source for factual evidence on this topic. I'm more used to climate change deniers referencing frauds & crackpots like Plimer, Montford, Monckton & Delingpole to support their denial..

I'll definitely check out the what NASA has to say on the poles, whatever they say I certainly would never be so arrogant to think I'm better informed than they are, so will absolutely accept it.

Here's what NASA say about Human influence on climate change 

*
Earth Impacts Linked to Human-Caused Climate Change*

A new NASA-led study shows that human-caused climate change has impacted a wide range of Earth's natural systems, from permafrost thawing to plants blooming earlier across Europe to lakes declining in productivity in Africa.

(& so on. See link )

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2008/human_impact.html


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> Also who would actually believe a newspaper when they say X our of 10 people read there newspapers.... its just basic sales spin.
> 
> Newspapers like the Sun, often align themselves with what they believe the mainstream opinion will be. The editors in charge of theses things aren't stupid. Logic dictates they will sell more newspapers if they align themselves with what 'they' think the general population want. This is why the Sun as an example famously switched sides with Tony Blair and supported Labour and then later switched back to support Conservatives.
> 
> Edited To add: Little fun fact. The Mail, supported Leave, but the Mail on Sunday supported Remain. The Times backed Remain, but the Sunday Times supported Leave, The Express went for Leave but The Star remained mostly neutral...
> They know there readers, no conspiracy's about influence here... just targeted sales


I disagree. The gutter press is owned by a handful of billionaire non dom media barons that use their media outlets to sell their opinion as news. These non doms directly benefit from brexit. Some of the papers they own have editorial freedom, hence why the Times supported remain.

This is from Tory Chris Patton.


----------



## 1290423

Apparently nine out of ten cats prefer whiskers.



it must be true coz it sez so on the telly


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 306091


You do know that many people retired to Spain before they joined the EU don't you?

It was also one of the safe havens for our gangsters


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You do know that many people retired to Spain before they joined the EU don't you?
> 
> It was also one of the safe havens for our gangsters


Exactly. Paradise for the rich and famous only.

Many seem oblivious to the ending of free movement working both ways so it'll be a shock to them having to apply for visas and the likes when they were used to jumping on a plane as and when they wanted to.

Some no doubt will have the audacity to blame the EU for that of course.


----------



## noushka05

lol


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Here's the bright spark's video. :Hilarious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's not very articulate is he, so hardly the great orator.
> 
> He has, nonetheless, raised my curiosity, because of one word in particular.
> 
> And that word is 'Soveriegntry':Facepalm
> 
> During an interview he was asked; _'What's it like living in Britain today?'
> _
> His answer, _'Much like Poland really'
> 
> 'Except there's not many Polish people in Poland anymore'
> 
> _
> Fancy that, someone like him representing the Leavers.


:Hilarious What a plonker.

Damn the EU with their fire retardant rules


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Exactly. Paradise for the rich and famous only.


So, explain to me what costs will increase when we leave?


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> :Hilarious What a plonker.
> 
> Damn the EU with their fire retardant rules


And the leave campaign with their retard-ants.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> And the leave campaign with their retard-ants.


And the remoaners with their immature comments 

Edit
Actually that simply shows how arrogant some remainers are. Doesn't help your cause in the slightest.


----------



## Bisbow

I think the best thing is to totally ignore this thread and let the remeiners carry on congratulating themselves on their cleverness and their insults until they get fed up with telling each other that they know best and we leavers are nothing but ignorant idiots and racists


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> And the remoaners with their immature comments


It's obviously escaped your attention (yet again) but, I'm not a _'remoaner'_ as you so delicately put it.

You've also misinterpreted and, therefore, misconstrued my post to suit your own agenda. I suggest you read it again and try your best to find the connection between post number 8816 and 8840.:Smug

People always jumping to conclusions make this world a complete confusion.


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> I think the best thing is to totally ignore this thread and let the remeiners carry on congratulating themselves on their cleverness and their insults until they get fed up with telling each other that they know best and we leavers are nothing but ignorant idiots and racists


Ive been doing that for a while, well sort of, most I can manage in response to the majority is a one liner.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> It's obviously escaped your attention (yet again) but, I'm not a _'remoaner'_ as you so delicately put it.
> 
> You've also misinterpreted and, therefore, misconstrued my post to suit your own agenda. I suggest you read it again and try your best to find the connection between post number 8816 and 8840.:Smug
> 
> People always jumping to conclusions make this world a complete confusion.


Luckily I don't live in Zaros land, or think everyone is hanging on my every world. Who re-reads a thread just in case a post might be in some way tenuously related to something posted yesterday?

Mind you shouldn't be surprised, typical remoaner not actually moving on! And yes, you do come across as a remainer, your posts show that.


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> I disagree. The gutter press is owned by a handful of billionaire non dom media barons that use their media outlets to sell their opinion as news. These non doms directly benefit from brexit. Some of the papers they own have editorial freedom, hence why the Times supported remain.
> 
> This is from Tory Chris Patton.
> 
> View attachment 306093


I know you will disagree  Along with @KittenKong you both have a good collection of tinfoil hats


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> So, explain to me what costs will increase when we leave?


It's well documented if no deal is reached.
Besides, who do you think will bear the burden of the costs for the new blue restricted passports reportedly costing the government £500million???


----------



## stuaz

rona said:


> You do know that many people retired to Spain before they joined the EU don't you?
> 
> It was also one of the safe havens for our gangsters


No @rona that can't be true! I simply don't believe you that people can still retire and move to other countries without the EU.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> It's well documented if no deal is reached.
> Besides, who do you think will bear the burden of the costs for the new blue restricted passports reportedly costing the government £500million???
> View attachment 306110


Well seeing as we wont be able to visit europe freely, well according to some, are we likely to need them?


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> Luckily I don't re-read a thread just in case a post might be in some way tenuously related to something posted yesterday?


You should take the time to recap and then you wouldn't run the risk of misleading yourself or others who might sit on the vacuous strains of your repetitive posts.

Unfortunately for you, your lack of diligence/conscientiousness shows and speaks volumes about who you are.

As do your constant insults.

Try not to blame others for your own failings in future.

There's a good boy.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Well @Goblin wants explainations off everyone that voted leave. Sorry of I have exhibited pointless reasons in your eyes but that is your opinion.
> 
> You seem to be avoid the question as well saying that you will explain tomorrow.
> 
> No one, I repeat no one has to give an explaination for the reason why they voted the way they did as it was a free Democratic vote. I have my reasons, like the next person next to me and you have your reasons for wanting to vote the way out did on Referendum day and neither of us owes an explaination. To carry on badgering someone for an explaination is a form of bullying as an explanation is not owed at all.


My goodness you are hard work, aren't you! Just to get the daft bits out of the way ...

I didn't mention your reasons - whatever they are - at all, let alone call them - whatever they are - pointless. Nor did I posit any other opinion. I have no idea where you got such a notion.

I 'avoided the question' by saying I would reply when I had more time because I didn't have time to respond in full.

Nor did I ask for anyone to give an explanation for their reasons, I merely asked what those reasons were. It would be very rude of me to pass an opinion on someone's reasoning, however perverse I may or may not think it to be.

And the way I asked, viz ....



Arnie83 said:


> Apologies if you have done so already in the thread, but could I ask what were the 'adult' factors that persuaded you?


... can hardly be described as 'badgering' or 'bullying'.

But as for my own explanation:

**** sapiens has spend the last 150,000 years on a trajectory towards greater and greater cooperation in larger communities. We started as very small tribes competing for scarce resources and territory, much like our cousins the chimpanzees do today.

Over long periods - and we're talking millennia here - we gradually came together in larger groups; villages, cities, facilitated by the advent of farming. In the background, our instinctive tendencies to consider others as competitive tribes still remained, and there were many conflicts, but overall they began to reduce. Those conflicts interrupted the conglomerative trajectory, but did not reverse it.

The rise of empires continued it, and, while they were often created through conquest and had many downsides the cultural influences that they introduced were often beneficial to the subjugated nations - examples might be the Romans throughout Europe, and the British in India. Again, within the empires themselves there were usually groups who took the tribal route and attempted to rebel - not surprisingly where force was used in their creation - but the overall, long-term effect of these ever larger groups was to engender peace through cultural assimilation.

Now we have a situation where globalisation is prevalent and unstoppable. With travel so much easier and quicker, the world is a smaller place; with technological communication it is all practically local; and with global capitalism encouraging cross border ownership of companies and resources, it is quickly becoming one marketplace. Already international organisations manage global concerns - the WTO governs trade around the world, setting the rules that most countries follow. And I think it will be not very long before the need for common management will engender a world 'government' in many areas.

With everyone's prosperity depending on an agreed globalised set of rules on which everyone depends, the opportunities for conflict are even further reduced. Interdependence means that beating up your neighbour will necessarily damage your own prosperity. A world community is, to my mind, an inevitability, and a good one.

There will be instances where the original, primitive, tribal need to draw back into a smaller group will act as a setback to the overall direction of travel - as with the current rise in nationalism, and the Brexit vote - but I don't think the destination is in doubt.

I voted to remain because I think a global community, whilst perhaps driven by economics, is the best way for us to shake off the exercise of those primitive instincts and evolve intellectually into a more civilised species. The EU is a much flawed precursor of that, but I would prefer us to continue taking forward steps towards a global community rather than backward ones towards separate little tribes waving spears at each other.

I would recommend to you the book "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" for a fuller discussion of the topic. Happy to answer any questions you may have.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Besides, who do you think will bear the burden of the costs for the new blue restricted passports reportedly costing the government £500million


If that's true it's will cost 7 nearly 8 million per person!!!

That mean I'll save the government 7 miilion..........I want a refund


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> It's well documented if no deal is reached.


Where?

I've seen that it will be harder to actually access your pension while there but not that costs will rise or by how much.
Can you link to that as I can't find it?


----------



## suewhite

rona said:


> If that's true it's will cost 7 nearly 8 million per person!!!
> 
> That mean I'll save the government 7 miilion..........I want a refund


Well that's 14 million we have saved Rona.:Smug


----------



## rona

suewhite said:


> Well that's 14 million we have saved Rona.:Smug


I don't want the whole lot back, a mere million will do


----------



## 1290423

suewhite said:


> Well that's 14 million we have saved Rona.:Smug


21million, wow carry on like this and we,ll bail out the nhs


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> If that's true it's will cost 7 nearly 8 million per person!!!


That's the rough figure being banded about at the moment. Can you imagine a more wasteful way to spend money when not everyone has a passport? Government is convinced it's a good way to spend your tax money and is more important than funding other things. Tory MP Andrew Rosindell said the burgundy passport had been a source of national "humiliation". I wonder how many people really give a damn, so long as the thing got you through passport control and customs as quickly as possible.



> That mean I'll save the government 7 miilion..........I want a refund


So do I. Then again I never voted to support things like this. Throwing money away to demonstrate how independent we will be. Look at us.. we are independent.. we have blue passports.

To be fair, passports change every 5 years or so regardless as an anti counterfeit measure. Wonder how much that normally costs. What extra is going to be involved? What about integration with different databases? Do we need new IT systems to cope if what we have is integrated into a standard EU one? No idea.

Glad you and people like DT can laugh about it. Government reducing funding for the NHS while throwing money at inconsequentials as people feel humilated about a passport's colour.

Edit: Glad to see you actually will be able to decide how money is spent. How do you make that decision and make the government do what you want?


----------



## 1290423

I prefered my black passport anyway, so there ya go, my reason to vote to leave the eu


Some will actually believe this lol


----------



## stuaz

Wouldn't they just replace the red passports with the blue one as an when they expire for people? Passports and Driving licenses and other forms of identification often go through 'rebranding' and redesign, often to make them more secure and less easy to forge.

The UK driving licenses went through one recently with new designs including a Union Jack Flag. Not sure how much it costed though.

Again though the driving license will need to be changed as that bears the EU flag. Again I suspect they will just expire and be replaced as an when.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Glad you and people like DT can laugh about it. Government reducing funding for the NHS while throwing money at inconsequentials as people feel humilated about a passport's colour.
> ?


There you go again!
who are these people like DT?  How do you know what I am like?
Suppose you have expert evidence that can determine my character!


----------



## 1290423

stuaz said:


> Wouldn't they just replace the red passports with the blue one as an when they expire for people? Passports and Driving licenses and other forms of identification often go through 'rebranding' and redesign, often to make them more secure and less easy to forge.
> 
> The UK driving licenses went through one recently with new designs including a Union Jack Flag. Not sure how much it costed though.
> 
> Again though the driving license will need to be changed as that bears the EU flag. Again I suspect they will just expire and be replaced as an when.


Do t be daft, that would be far to simple a solution the fit into the criteria that these experts assume would be possible


----------



## rona

The last EU passport contract for the UK in 2010 cost 400 million for a 10 year contract which actually ends when we leave. The EU have been tried to change it several times to make it more European, and passports are changed at regular intervals to stop forgery anyway. Therefore the cost is just an ongoing outlay that would have happened with Brexit or not!


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> There you go again!
> who are these people like DT?  How do you know what I am like?
> Suppose you have expert evidence that can determine my character!


Well I can read your posts. I like to think you were joking rather than trying to undermine the character of the person initially raising the passport costs.


DT said:


> 21million, wow carry on like this and we,ll bail out the nhs


----------



## 1290423

Think this is perhaps time to apologise to all the well balacanced contributors on this thread, especially you cheeky, sorry but I have got to the stage where I can no longer respond seriously to any of the posts whether they be for or against.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Well I can read your posts. I like to think you were joking rather than trying to undermine the character of the person initially raising the passport costs.


Well don't they say something about it takes a joker to spot a joker
Or did I mix that up badly


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> The EU have been tried to change it several times to make it more European


Can you explain what you mean by more european?


----------



## Dr Pepper

stuaz said:


> Wouldn't they just replace the red passports with the blue one as an when they expire for people? Passports and Driving licenses and other forms of identification often go through 'rebranding' and redesign, often to make them more secure and less easy to forge.
> 
> The UK driving licenses went through one recently with new designs including a Union Jack Flag. Not sure how much it costed though.
> 
> Again though the driving license will need to be changed as that bears the EU flag. Again I suspect they will just expire and be replaced as an when.


Well I've done my bit as I still have my paper only driving licence, saved them a few quid there missing out on all the inbetween ones.

And my passport expires next year so I'll hang on for the new one. Though as you say I'd imagine they'll be just updated as they expire, just as they always have in the past. Probably won't be going to Europe again anyway as, apparently, it'll be a nightmare what with getting a visa going through the red channels. I'll just go to the USA (if Russia hasn't nuked it off the planet) as it's a two minute online job to get their ESTA which last for a couple of years. My options outside Europe are endless.


----------



## rona

Dr Pepper said:


> Well I've done my bit as I still have my paper only driving licence


So do I. If anyone ever asks me for ID with a photo, I'm stuffed :Shamefullyembarrased


----------



## 1290423

omg! Omg! OMG I just realised, when we finally cut the cord we are going to lose our sense of humour,s now no one warned us of that


----------



## Dr Pepper

rona said:


> So do I. If anyone ever asks me for ID with a photo, I'm stuffed :Shamefullyembarrased


I know, have to take my passport as well!


----------



## 1290423

To Rona and Dr Pepper, like you two I always believed that the paper licence was still valid, unfortunately I had to change mine due to moving house.
I have checked on the internet numerous times but cannot be certain, as I had a friend who went to hire a car recently and they we refused the hirer saying the paper licence was not valid. I argued black was white it was but have been told numerous times it's not???


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Can you explain what you mean by more european?


In 2000 they wanted us to remove the Queens crest and put instead the EU star logo


----------



## rona

DT said:


> To Rona and Dr Pepper, like you two I always believed that the paper licence was still valid, unfortunately I had to change mine due to moving house.
> I have checked on the internet numerous times but cannot be certain, as I had a friend who went to hire a car recently and they we refused the hirer saying the paper licence was not valid. I argued black was white it was but have been told numerous times it's not???


I haven't got a driving license then


----------



## rona

Dr Pepper said:


> I know, have to take my passport as well!


But I haven't one of those either


----------



## 1290423

Sorry got that wrong, just checked, not valid for ID


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Sorry got that wrong, just checked, not valid for ID


Well thanks for the panic and adrenaline rush thinking I didn't have a licence 

Actually people pay good money for a rush like that, it was quite enjoyable 

Yes, if you need to change it, like you did moving, then you need a new fangled one.


----------



## Dr Pepper

rona said:


> But I haven't one of those either


Oh, you are screwed then!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

DT said:


> Sorry got that wrong, just checked, not valid for ID


I was just about to reply and tell you the old paper driving licence is still perfectly valid, however if you are asked to provide a driving licence for ID they probably want it for photo identity and it seems to be presumed everyone now has a photo style licence. I have hired a car with my paper licence no problem I did however also produce my passport for ID purposes. If any changes are made to your licence, name, address change, new category etc. then you do have to have a photo ID licence. If I didn`t have a passport I would change my licence because it does seem increasingly common to be asked for photo ID.


----------



## 1290423

Well cant fault Rona, and Dr pepper for keeping their old paper ones, look at all those tenners they have saved, but that said I wont have anymore to pay as when I next need a new one id be over 70 anyway so wont cost me.
Huh, guess thats not something to celebrate after all


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Where?
> 
> I've seen that it will be harder to actually access your pension while there but not that costs will rise or by how much.
> Can you link to that as I can't find it?


Been discussed in The Guardian, Independent and even The Sun of all papers. First and only time I'll provide a link to the latter!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/31169...es-the-transport-minister-john-hayes-admits/#



rona said:


> In 2000 they wanted us to remove the Queens crest and put instead the EU star logo


Wouldn't have a problem with that, besides wasn't keeping the Queen's crest a compromise? The UK'S problem is they never wanted to be seen as European.



3dogs2cats said:


> I was just about to reply and tell you the old paper driving licence is still perfectly valid, however if you are asked to provide a driving licence for ID they probably want it for photo identity and it seems to be presumed everyone now has a photo style licence. I have hired a car with my paper licence no problem I did however also produce my passport for ID purposes. If any changes are made to your licence, name, address change, new category etc. then you do have to have a photo ID licence. If I didn`t have a passport I would change my licence because it does seem increasingly common to be asked for photo ID.


Say hello to International Driving Permits after Brexit probably as the UK/EU passport may no longer be valid as well as the passport across Europe.


----------



## KittenKong

After May's BNP like Election Broadcast yesterday here's something embarrassing for them.

















http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_58ebb60be4b0c89f91204858?utm_hp_ref=uk-brexit


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Been discussed in The Guardian, Independent and even The Sun of all papers. First and only time I'll provide a link to the latter!


I don't read papers. Anyway I've already found that t's an ongoing cost that would be even if we stayed in


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The UK'S problem is they never wanted to be seen as European.


Ain't that the truth!


----------



## Honeys mum

Oh dear, I still got my paper one, with my picture stuck on it. Does that mean its not legal then.
Also my passport ran out a couple of years ago.So I can get a nice new blue one then when they come out.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> After May's BNP like Election Broadcast yesterday here's something embarrassing for them.
> 
> View attachment 306153
> View attachment 306154
> 
> 
> http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_58ebb60be4b0c89f91204858?utm_hp_ref=uk-brexit


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35423953

You do know that that's a loan right , that needs to be paid back and not funding as in grants and such?

BBC reported a collaboration between Scotland and UK governments
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35423953

Oh look and Nicola wanted more................
"Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon told Holyrood that her government would continue to press the UK government to offer more financial support to the north east"


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35423953
> 
> You do know that that's a loan right , that needs to be paid back and not funding as in grants and such?
> 
> BBC reported a collaboration between Scotland and UK governments
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35423953
> 
> Oh look and Nicola wanted more................
> "Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon told Holyrood that her government would continue to press the UK government to offer more financial support to the north east"


Well, if May persistently refuses to allow Nicola a say in the Brexit negotiations why shouldn't she not press the UK government for more financial support?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Well, if May persistently refuses to allow Nicola a say in the Brexit negotiations why shouldn't she not press the UK government for more financial support?


No reason at all ..........


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I don't read papers. Anyway I've already found that t's an ongoing cost that would be even if we stayed in


Seems a lot more complicated than that. The UK will no doubt be withdrawing from anything deemed European which will include the common travel area if they walk away from negotiations without any deal.

Should the worst case scenario occur they'll be a lot of disgruntled holiday makers'


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> No reason at all ..........


May is behaving like a sole ruler of her mini empire, so if she takes unilateral and unelected control of Scotland she must expect such requests.

I would agree with you in an independent Scotland where it would be their own and/or the EU's responsibility should they re-join.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Seems a lot more complicated than that. The UK will no doubt be withdrawing from anything deemed European which will include the common travel area if they walk away from negotiations without any deal.


We were talking about the cost of the passport weren't we, not travel?

You do go off on a tangent


----------



## Happy Paws2

They are now saying they are rethinking our passports, they may no longer be valid.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> May is behaving like a sole ruler of her mini empire, so if she takes unilateral and unelected control of Scotland she must expect such requests.
> 
> *I would agree with you *in an independent Scotland where it would be their own and/or the EU's responsibility should they re-join.


So you don't agree with me on this point?


----------



## samuelsmiles

Ok, so it's not the Sun, but it still makes interesting reading. 

*Half of young adults in the UK do not feel European, poll reveals.*

_"just 13% ever having worked abroad and just one in three proficient [in a] foreign language at a "simple" level"_


----------



## stuaz

samuelsmiles said:


> Ok, so it's not the Sun, but it still makes interesting reading.
> 
> *Half of young adults in the UK do not feel European, poll reveals.*
> 
> _"just 13% ever having worked abroad and just one in three proficient [in a] foreign language at a "simple" level"_


Not surprising. The UK has always had one foot in Europe and one out. Perhaps because we are an island so it allows a physical barrier?


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> 21million, wow carry on like this and we,ll bail out the nhs


You have got to be joking (& I'm sure you are lol), the tories wont spend money to save our NHS, they are deliberately making it fail to fully privatise it. Brexit will be the final nail in the coffin.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...uk-healthcare-leaked-government-a7671791.html


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> Ok, so it's not the Sun, but it still makes interesting reading.
> 
> *Half of young adults in the UK do not feel European, poll reveals.*
> 
> _"just 13% ever having worked abroad and just one in three proficient [in a] foreign language at a "simple" level"_


So half of them do feel European.

Given the constant drip drip drip of anti-EU comment and rhetoric in politics and most of the UK press, I'm astonished it's that high. To be repeatedly told that a community is corrupt, sclerotic, interfering, dictatorial, undemocratic, ludicrous, weak, useless, and a hindrance to prosperity and yet still to associate with it indicates a commendable rejection of primitive instinct. Well done them.


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> So half of them do feel European.


Now theres a surprise! Not! Considering 9.9% of the young adults living in britain today were not born here one would have expected the 50% who felt European to have been somewhat higher.

Infact. whilst we are playing with numbers can one of the clever mathematical people please remind me, as 50% equates to a half in fractions do this no mean that the 9.8% now becomes over 19% hence the true figure who said they felt european was actually 31% apologises if I have got this calc wrong which I am sure I have, could someone translate it for me please xxxxxx


----------



## KittenKong

Well well well

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39564289


----------



## Happy Paws2

and are we surprised, I don't think so.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Arnie83 said:


> So half of them do feel European.
> 
> Given the constant drip drip drip of anti-EU comment and rhetoric in politics and most of the UK press, I'm astonished it's that high. To be repeatedly told that a community is corrupt, sclerotic, interfering, dictatorial, undemocratic, ludicrous, weak, useless, and a hindrance to prosperity and yet still to associate with it indicates a commendable rejection of primitive instinct. Well done them.


Considering the constant rhetoric from the remainers that we have ruined the future for the young, I'm surprised the number was so low. Very surprised, actually.


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> Considering the constant rhetoric from the remainers that we have ruined the future for the young, I'm surprised the number was so low. Very surprised, actually.


It's 9 months since the referendum. For the 18-30 group the negative myths have been unremittingly peddled all of their lives.


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> Considering the constant rhetoric from the remainers that we have ruined the future for the young, I'm surprised the number was so low. Very surprised, actually.


Let's see. we have the lies of the leave campaign, the lack of credible reasoning as to why the UK would be better off. On the plus side for leaving, the EU is the scapegoat for all the ills inflicting by our own government. Any shock scapegoating works.. only did it:









Quite telling don't you think.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Goblin said:


> Let's see. we have the lies of the leave campaign, the lack of credible reasoning as to why the UK would be better off. On the plus side for leaving, the EU is the scapegoat for all the ills inflicting by our own government. Any shock scapegoating works.. only did it:
> 
> View attachment 306247
> 
> 
> Quite telling don't you think.


Let's see. We have Lily Allen tweeting endlessly about the appalling impact of Brexit, David Beckham, James Bond 007 and any other number of young and/or 'fashionable' people decrying the oldens for screwing them over. These are the people they will be exposed to and influenced by.

Amongst the Leavers were Roger Daltry and Michael Caine and yet....yet under 50%? Go figure.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Let's see. we have the lies of the leave campaign, the lack of credible reasoning as to why the UK would be better off. On the plus side for leaving, the EU is the scapegoat for all the ills inflicting by our own government. Any shock scapegoating works.. only did it:
> 
> View attachment 306247
> 
> 
> Quite telling don't you think.


Even more striking when you account for the inverse relationships between educational attainment vs age, holding a passport and social class. Adjust for that and the association with educational level is even stronger, more so if you strip out as outliers high minority population remain voting areas that have low educational levels. You can almost predict the pattern of the result using educational level alone.


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> Let's see. We have Lily Allen tweeting endlessly about the appalling impact of Brexit, David Beckham, James Bond 007 and any other number of young and/or 'fashionable' people decrying the oldens for screwing them over. These are the people they will be exposed to and influenced by.
> 
> Amongst the Leavers were Roger Daltry and Michael Caine and yet....yet under 50%? Go figure.


Sorry; just to confirm - you're saying that the young vote was significantly influenced by Lily Allen, David Beckham and a fictional character?


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry; just to confirm - you're saying that the young vote was significantly influenced by Lily Allen, David Beckham and a fictional character?


Well its no more offensive then the remainers suggesting that those who voted to leave the EU were influenced by a daily comic, opps, I mean the sun, is it now?


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Well its no more offensive then the remainers suggesting that those who voted to leave the EU were influenced by a daily comic, opps, I mean the sun, is it now?


Indeed not, just rather less statistically likely.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Indeed not, just rather less statistically likely.


Well Beckham has 54,716,303 followers on FB. How many have the others? Far more than the sun readership I would hazard a guess


----------



## Happy Paws2

So!


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> So!


So what?


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> Well Beckham has 54,716,303 followers on FB. How many have the others? Far more than the sun readership I would hazard a guess


Wasting our breathe I fear, the remain camp are so more educated then the leave camp so it would appear! (Or so they would like to think) They couldn't possibly be,influenced by their idols, does make you query why on earth they dragged bob geldoff into the limelight and gave him so much airtime?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Even more striking when you account for the inverse relationships between educational attainment vs age, holding a passport and social class. Adjust for that and the association with educational level is even stronger, more so if you strip out as outliers high minority population remain voting areas that have low educational levels. You can almost predict the pattern of the result using educational level alone.


I am afraid...you can bet on it.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Wasting our breathe I fear, the remain camp are so more educated then the leave camp so it would appear! (Or so they would like to think) They couldn't possibly be,influenced by their idols, does make you query why on earth they dragged bob geldoff into the limelight and gave him so much airtime?


Interesting that remainers tend to back their position with facts and all leavers can come up with are disparaging remarks.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Interesting that remainers tend to back their position with facts and all leavers can come up with are disparaging remarks.


Says who?


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Says who?


The posts themselves


----------



## noushka05

Anyone else feeling the same?


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Anyone else feeling the same?
> 
> View attachment 306343


No. I'm more like.....


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Well Beckham has 54,716,303 followers on FB. How many have the others? Far more than the sun readership I would hazard a guess


I can't believe I'm actually replying to this, but I think you mean 'likes' rather than followers. And any correlation between David Beckham FB likes and the Brexit voting intentions of 18-30 year olds has to be one of the more tenuous notions I've come across. He hasn't, as far as I recall, been frequently vociferous on the subject, and I find myself wondering whether those who are fans of his social media presence would be among the most likely to give a damn about politics one way or the other.

Compare that with 30 years of headlines in the Mail, Express, Sun etc specifically denigrating the EU, migrants, and anything pro-Europe, from "Up Yours Delors!" to "Enemies of the People!", and I think any sensible conclusion would favour a greater influence from the press than an ex-footballer.

I hope you won't think me rude, but I won't be responding to any further replies on this particular topic. It's silly.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> It's silly.


Couldn't agree more. It was your comparative not mine. I was just giving you figures and why I didn't bother with any others................


----------



## KittenKong

This is not silly. It's b****y disgusting.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-stunned-as-uk-born-children-denied-residency


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Satori said:


> No. I'm more like.....


I bloody hate that song lol. It was so overplayed.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> This is not silly. It's b****y disgusting.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-stunned-as-uk-born-children-denied-residency
> 
> View attachment 306388
> View attachment 306390


Nothing new here. Checks are made always on people from other countries. Do the government make mistakes with this sometimes? Sure. Is there always more to these stories, definitely.

Is this related to Brexit? Nope.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Nothing new here. Checks are made always on people from other countries. Do the government make mistakes with this sometimes? Sure. Is there always more to these stories, definitely.
> 
> Is this related to Brexit? Nope.


Wrong, it has everything to do with Brexit as far as May's vision for it is concerned.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> This is not silly. It's b****y disgusting.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-stunned-as-uk-born-children-denied-residency


Some bureaucrats are a special kind of stupid, and Brexit is giving full rein to their talents.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Wrong, it has everything to do with Brexit as far as May's vision for it is concerned.
> 
> View attachment 306408


Exactly. Nothing to do with Brexit at all. Try reading past the headline and you will see that the article has no connection to the point you are failing to make.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> No. I'm more like.....


Yes well just think on thisompus


----------



## stuaz

Satori said:


> Exactly. Nothing to do with Brexit at all. Try reading past the headline and you will see that the article has no connection to the point you are failing to make.


Thanks, glad I am not the only person to read the article properly.


----------



## Goblin

stuaz said:


> Thanks, glad I am not the only person to read the article properly.


Wish it was that simple. It's not simply the people concerned. Penalising people simply because of nationality will do nothing to encourage foreigners to come to the UK. That has only negative side effects long term be it the NHS or research and development and even education. The tone of the UK outside the EU is being set now and presently it's not looking good when it comes to it's reputation.


----------



## 1290423

A photo taken from a recent demo by the remainders. Now please remind me but didn't the remain camp suggest we were all poorly educated?


----------



## stuaz

Goblin said:


> Wish it was that simple. It's not simply the people concerned. Penalising people simply because of nationality will do nothing to encourage foreigners to come to the UK. That has only negative side effects long term be it the NHS or research and development and even education. The tone of the UK outside the EU is being set now and presently it's not looking good when it comes to it's reputation.


Very true and the media has a huge part to play in this as well, spinning non-stories into something and not representing all facts and people just reading headlines etc.


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> Very true and the media has a huge part to play in this as well, spinning non-stories into something and not representing all facts and people just reading headlines etc.


'The media has a huge part to play'? But I didn't think the media had much influence over peoples opinions


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> 'The media has a huge part to play'? But I didn't think the media had much influence over peoples opinions


They don't. But doesn't stop people on here posting headlines as truth!


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> Exactly. Nothing to do with Brexit at all. Try reading past the headline and you will see that the article has no connection to the point you are failing to make.


Under EU law these people, yes they're people and not "parasites" for their "crime" of not being "British", are free to live and work on their existing EU passports within their countries of origin in much the same way I could move abroad and even start a business with my existing EU/UK passport.

In other words I wouldn't have to give up British citizenship in favour of another, that's if I could afford to apply for one with no guarantee of acceptance, for a privilege of living in a different country.

Brexit will change all that.

As it stands EU citizens living and working in the UK still haven't had guarantees of remaining here and vice versa of course.

I tend to think of other people rather than just myself. You and I can't possibly know what they're going through at the moment. I feel for them but that's me.



DT said:


> A photo taken from a recent demo by the remainders. Now please remind me but didn't the remain camp suggest we were all poorly educated?
> View attachment 306420


Who said anything about all leave supporters being poorly educated? Journalists in papers like the Sun, Express and Mail are probably extremely well educated and know how to convert some to their readers to their way of thinking.


----------



## noushka05

*German neuroscientist with right to live in UK told 'prepare to leave' after Brexit*
Home Office criticised for 'outrageous' letter telling people with residency rights they need to get ready to leave

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eave-brexit-eu-national-citizen-a7639831.html


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> They don't. But doesn't stop people on here posting headlines as truth!


The truth is this government is treating EU citizens despicably.


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> The truth is this government is treating EU citizens despicably.


In my experience, I can't agree sorry.

I do believe however the government is making some questionable choices relating to all citizens.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> 'The media has a huge part to play'? But I didn't think the media had much influence over peoples opinions


.....Indeed!






























You think no one was influenced by these headlines Stuaz ??????????????????


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> In my experience, I can't agree sorry.
> 
> I do believe however the government is making some questionable choices relating to all citizens.


I'm sure 3 million EU citizens would beg to differ. Why not try putting yourself in their shoes for a moment, Stuaz? https://www.the3million.org.uk/


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> I'm sure 3 million EU citizens would beg to differ. Why not try putting yourself in their shoes for a moment, Stuaz?


Who says I am not already in there shoes and therefore have perhaps more of an insight than a questionable social media campaign?


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> .....Indeed!
> View attachment 306423
> View attachment 306424
> View attachment 306425
> View attachment 306426
> 
> 
> You think no one was influenced by these headlines Stuaz ??????????????????


I am sure one or two might be (its advertising after), but to the levels that you think? Nope sorry. I dont buy into the conspiracy theories, sorry.


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> Who says I am not already in there shoes and therefore have perhaps more of an insight than a questionable social media campaign?


So you're saying these people are lying? Their fears are unfounded?


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> The truth is this government is treating EU citizens despicably.


Indeed, as their Nationalist vision of Britain points out, of course devolution is completely ignored...










In other words people born in England, Scotland, Wales, NI and those fortunate to be able to afford and accepted for citizenship.

Reminds me of the kind of propaganda put out by the Nazis' in 1930s Germany.

(Quote from " Plan for Britain",- see Goblin's thread)


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> So you're saying these people are lying? Their fears are unfounded?


That was hard to watch,.....Disgusting.....How can we treat people like this.


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> So you're saying these people are lying? Their fears are unfounded?


*sigh*, yeah sure that's what I said.

if you actually do read what I said further back in this roundabout thread, is that EU nationals should have been guaranteed a place in this country, a country full of people from all over the world (Including outside the EU..). The government chose not to do this which I personally think was wrong and sent the wrong image to the rest of the world.

That said however, the UK government kicked people out the country prior to the Brexit vote, they denied people the right to stay in this country, BEFORE the Brexit vote. The government will continue to do that, but to claim it is because of Brexit if it happens AFTER the vote, is just going to cause further tension, when there isn't any proof to it.

@noushka05 on a personal note I respect what you say but we won't agree on this as I have a very different first hand experience through my work life and personal life.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Indeed, as their Nationalist vision of Britain points out, of course devolution is completely ignored...
> 
> View attachment 306433
> 
> 
> In other words people born in England, Scotland, Wales, NI and those fortunate to be able to afford and accepted for citizenship.
> 
> *Reminds me of the kind of propaganda put out by the Nazis' in 1930s Germany.*
> 
> (Quote from " Plan for Britain",- see Goblin's thread)


A lot of people are making the same comparison.



Happy Paws said:


> That was hard to watch,.....Disgusting.....How can we treat people like this.


Hard to believe not so long ago we were known for our fairness & compassion. This government is dragging off a cliff into the gutter.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> *sigh*, yeah sure that's what I said.
> 
> if you actually do read what I said further back in this roundabout thread, is that EU nationals should have been guaranteed a place in this country, a country full of people from all over the world (Including outside the EU..). The government chose not to do this which I personally think was wrong and sent the wrong image to the rest of the world.
> 
> That said however, the UK government kicked people out the country prior to the Brexit vote, they denied people the right to stay in this country, BEFORE the Brexit vote. The government will continue to do that, but to claim it is because of Brexit if it happens AFTER the vote, is just going to cause further tension, when there isn't any proof to it.
> 
> @noushka05 on a personal note I respect what you say but we won't agree on this as I have a very different first hand experience through my work life and personal life.


Yes, you're right concerning citizens outside the EU/EEA area, expired visas and the likes.

Now as they're withdrawing from the EU their citizens could become just as vulnerable despite legally having the right to be in the UK prior to the referendum. Overnight "illegals" if you like.


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> *sigh*, yeah sure that's what I said.
> 
> if you actually do read what I said further back in this roundabout thread, is that EU nationals should have been guaranteed a place in this country, a country full of people from all over the world (Including outside the EU..). The government chose not to do this which I personally think was wrong and sent the wrong image to the rest of the world.
> 
> That said however, the UK government kicked people out the country prior to the Brexit vote, they denied people the right to stay in this country, BEFORE the Brexit vote. The government will continue to do that, but to claim it is because of Brexit if it happens AFTER the vote, is just going to cause further tension, when there isn't any proof to it.
> 
> @noushka05 on a personal note I respect what you say but we won't agree on this as I have a very different first hand experience through my work life and personal life.


I asked you if that's what you were saying. But thank you for clarifying.

I don't remember the government treating EU citizens like bargaining chips prior to the referendum. People no longer feel safe or welcome here.


----------



## noushka05

Well said this person -

_The term "will of the people" has only one purpose - to 
delegitimize & suppress opposition. 
It is a tool of demagogues & dictators_


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Yes, you're right concerning citizens outside the EU/EEA area, expired visas and the likes.
> 
> Now as they're withdrawing from the EU their citizens could become just as vulnerable despite legally having the right to be in the UK prior to the referendum. Overnight "illegals" if you like.


I have said this before, but I will say it again, it is very very very very very unlikely that the UK will remove EU nationals from this country, it just doesn't make sense from a logical point of view. We don't have the workforce to feel the void that will be left behind. Based on the governments of past and others in other countries, rules applied to immigration will apply to people after the introduction of the new rule.

If the government had chosen to guarantee the rights of those currently here then it would have gone a long way to quash any concerns, but sadly (and in my view wrongly) they didn't.


----------



## noushka05

Look at this @KittenKong. An example of how the right wing gutter press are nothing more than a mouthpiece for this government. Ed Miliband wanted to cap energy prices - Theresa May says she does.

The right wing media & government are so closely intertwined its become an affront to our democracy.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> I have said this before, but I will say it again, it is very very very very very unlikely that the UK will remove EU nationals from this country, it just doesn't make sense from a logical point of view. We don't have the workforce to feel the void that will be left behind. Based on the governments of past and others in other countries, rules applied to immigration will apply to people after the introduction of the new rule.
> 
> If the government had chosen to guarantee the rights of those currently here then it would have gone a long way to quash any concerns, but sadly (and in my view wrongly) they didn't.


If that's the case why haven't the government bent over backwards to offer this reassurance? They haven't which is what I find distasteful.

All appears to be "Britain for the British and to hell with none "Britons"" with this government.

TM couldn't bring herself to call the recent terrorist perpetrator "British", only "British Born". Makes you wonder.....

Cliff Richard was born in India. No one would regard him as "not British" would they?

I agree wholeheartedly with your second paragraph.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Look at this @KittenKong. An example of how the right wing gutter press are nothing more than a mouthpiece for this government. Ed Miliband wanted to cap energy prices - Theresa May says she does.
> 
> The right wing media & government are so closely intertwined its become an affront to our democracy.
> 
> View attachment 306441
> 
> 
> View attachment 306440


Yes indeed. Remember how they and David Davis threw their hands in horror at Labour's proposed snoopers' charter? Quite rightly in my view yet May's introducing it which of course is OK!


----------



## Goblin

stuaz said:


> I have said this before, but I will say it again, it is very very very very very unlikely that the UK will remove EU nationals from this country,


Think about the lies of the government regarding the rights of UK nationals in the EU. They pretend it's an equal situation when it's not. Those UK people in the EU are already protected in so many ways. 5 years permanent residency for a start. Isn't it really strange how the government keeps complaining they cannot kick people out because of EU rules.. That's one of the justifications for leaving the european court of justice. Isn't it amazing how other EU countries can kick UK nationals out at the drop of a hat now which means we need to keep EU nationals as a bargaining chip to balance it out and ensure equal treatment.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Yes well just think on thisompus
> 
> View attachment 306414


Ok. Just for you....


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> So you're saying these people are lying? Their fears are unfounded?


I can very much relate to this.
Worse, we might be forced to leave The Rock if our status changes and economy collapses. Or May gives us to Spain as a trade off for the best deal.

I do not want my children to be called names just because they have two surnames and one is foreign. I asked them anyway and they refused, all three of them. I have nothing to go back to any more after two decades.

News that our friends bring are really sad. Met my Russian firend today. They have British passports, but they worry a lot if they had to go to UK.

I will have to accompany my child to UK and stay for a month, we do feel uneasy. I never felt like that going to UK before, just because of my looks and my slight accent. What If I have to ask for directions etc..and someone will be really rude in front of my child?


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> I will have to accompany my child to UK and stay for a month, we do feel uneasy. I never felt like that going to UK before, just because of my looks and my slight accent. What If I have to ask for directions etc..and someone will be really rude in front of my child?


Hope it all goes fine and there is nothing to worry about.

What I would ask others however is what is being done to change this opinion now.. or is it going to have to wait until after negotiations with the EU are complete as you need to know what is "right" or not as it depends on the EU?


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Ok. Just for you....


Back at ya -












cheekyscrip said:


> I can very much relate to this.
> Worse, we might be forced to leave The Rock if our status changes and economy collapses. Or May gives us to Spain as a trade off for the best deal.
> 
> I do not want my children to be called names just because they have two surnames and one is foreign. I asked them anyway and they refused, all three of them. I have nothing to go back to any more after two decades.
> 
> News that our friends bring are really sad. Met my Russian firend today. They have British passports, but they worry a lot if they had to go to UK.
> 
> I will have to accompany my child to UK and stay for a month, we do feel uneasy. I never felt like that going to UK before, just because of my looks and my slight accent. What If I have to ask for directions etc..and someone will be really rude in front of my child?


I feel so sad people like you have been made to feel insecure, its disgusting . My eldest & his girlfriend visited Berlin a few months ago & he commented for the first time in his life he felt ashamed to be British, he felt uncomfortable showing his British passport. He found German people lovely & polite.

This government is fuelling nationalism and the anti-foreigner sentiment that is rising over here, most people are decent though Cheeky, so I'm sure you'll be fine. I hope you enjoy your visit - & you get good weather!


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> No I didn't, because climates change with or without our intervention, that's a FACT. The north and south poles switch as well and there's feck all we can do about that. In fact they are overdue to switch.


Now you know humans are driving climate change & we can do something about mitigating the worst effects, has your opinion change any? Do you think this government should be given free reign to rip up red tape & ramp up destruction of our living world?
*
Earth's poles are shifting because of climate change*

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24755-earths-poles-are-shifting-because-of-climate-change/


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Back at ya -
> 
> View attachment 306450
> 
> 
> I feel so sad people like you have been made to feel insecure, its disgusting . My eldest & his girlfriend visited Berlin a few months ago & he commented for the first time in his life he felt ashamed to be British, he felt uncomfortable showing his British passport. He found German people lovely & polite.
> 
> This government is fuelling nationalism and the anti-foreigner sentiment that is rising over here, most people are decent though Cheeky, so I'm sure you'll be fine. I hope you enjoy your visit - & you get good weather!


Just listened to Moose Turd Pie. Pmsl.


----------



## Bisbow

I don't think you need to worry about climate change, whether we leave the EU or not because the way Trump, Putin and North Korea are going on there will be no Europe to leave or climate to change as no-one will be left to worry about it


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Look at this @KittenKong
> View attachment 306440


So that's all of the Beckham's kids that have become 'Trademarks'

Material possessions/property.

Insanity.:Wacky


----------



## rona

It's like a soap opera this isn't it?

Way way over the top stories


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said: ↑
Look at this @KittenKong View attachment 306440

As much as I agree that is a disgrace, but what on earth has it got to do with a thread about the E.U. referendum


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> I don't think you need to worry about climate change, whether we leave the EU or not because the way Trump, Putin and North Korea are going on there will be no Europe to leave or climate to change as no-one will be left to worry about it


Many a true word spoken in jest x
Think its only a matter of time now before someone brings the big toys out


----------



## stockwellcat.

Bisbow said:


> I don't think you need to worry about climate change, whether we leave the EU or not because the way Trump, Putin and North Korea are going on there will be no Europe to leave or climate to change as no-one will be left to worry about it


They will still blame us for leaving the EU even if there is no EU or Europe left after Putin, America and North Korea carry out there threats.

They now know or they will know soon what it's like to be ignored. Ignored like those that voted to not join the EC 40+ years ago, don't forget that was a non-binding Referendum and the Government didn't need to act on it because it was non-binding 

Why are we worrying though, if North Korea carry out it's threats there won't be much left of anything?


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> I have said this before, but I will say it again, it is very very very very very unlikely that the UK will remove EU nationals from this country, it just doesn't make sense from a logical point of view. We don't have the workforce to feel the void that will be left behind. Based on the governments of past and others in other countries, rules applied to immigration will apply to people after the introduction of the new rule.
> 
> If the government had chosen to guarantee the rights of those currently here then it would have gone a long way to quash any concerns, but sadly (and in my view wrongly) they didn't.


Some have already been told to leave by the Home Office. The more I look into this the more insane it becomes. EU nationals now have to fill in an 85 page form What a way to treat people.






No wonder EU nationals are leaving in droves - many are removing themselves!
*
These Europeans Are Already Leaving The UK Because Of Brexit*

"_It feels like when you love someone and they cheat on you."_

https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilydugan...ause-of-brexit?utm_term=.fweRvVbg8#.qodMej73W



Satori said:


> Just listened to Moose Turd Pie. Pmsl.


LOL I didn't know what you meant till I googled 

( Us peasants will be glad of a slice of that soon lol )



Honeys mum said:


> noushka05 said: ↑
> Look at this @KittenKong View attachment 306440
> 
> As much as I agree that is a disgrace, but what on earth has it got to do with a thread about the E.U. referendum


Because its an example of the hand in glove relationship of the right wing media & the tory government. Its relevant to this thread because Brexit will be disastrous for UK. Tories will blame an 'uncompromising EU' not their own reckless stupidity. Tory media will back them up. This is how it will happen.

And the hard line leave voters will fall for it hook line & sinker 



Bisbow said:


> I don't think you need to worry about climate change, whether we leave the EU or not because the way Trump, Putin and North Korea are going on there will be no Europe to leave or climate to change as no-one will be left to worry about it


Neo-cons seem intent on destroying our planet one way or another. Putin got what he wanted. Brexit & Trump - but Trump is a loose cannon - and now we have aligned ourselves with him over our European neighbours.

Amazing to see China being the diplomats trying to calm the situation, not sure it will make any difference, but lets just hope they succeed.

Then lets hope to god the EU stands strong & right wing populism is swept away.



stockwellcat said:


> They will still blame us for leaving the EU even if there is no EU or Europe left after Putin, America and North Korea carry out there threats.
> 
> They now know or they will know soon what it's like to be ignored. Ignored like those that voted to not join the EC 40+ years ago, don't forget that was a non-binding Referendum and the Government didn't need to act on it because it was non-binding
> 
> Why are we worrying though, if North Korea carry out it's threats there won't be much left of anything?


We were warned a vote to leave the EU would empower the hard right. We were warned a fractured EU was dangerous to peace. Remember ? Right wing populism never ends well, that's why historians tried to warn us. But what do 'experts' know, hey? Now we have the most right wing government ever, aligned with a fascist mad mad provoking another unhinged lunatic. And Putin, who was cheerleader for both brexit & Trump.

*
History tells us what may happen next with Brexit & Trump*

Jul 23, 2016

*An example of how Brexit could lead to a nuclear war *_*could be*_* this*: https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/his...ll-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> So that's all of the Beckham's kids that have become 'Trademarks'
> 
> Material possessions/property.
> 
> Insanity.:Wacky


Gosh I see what you mean That's just wrong:Greedy


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Gosh I see what you mean That's just wrong:Greedy


Yep harper was the last! Who the hell does that woman think she is?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Some have already been told to leave by
> We were warned a vote to leave the EU would empower the hard right. We were warned a fractured EU was dangerous to peace. Remember ? Right wing populism never ends well, that's why historians tried to warn us. But what do 'experts' know, hey? Now we have the most right wing government ever, aligned with a fascist mad mad provoking another unhinged lunatic. And Putin, who was cheerleader for both brexit & Trump.
> 
> *
> History tells us what may happen next with Brexit & Trump*
> 
> Jul 23, 2016
> 
> *An example of how Brexit could lead to a nuclear war *_*could be*_* this*: https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/his...ll-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714


Leaving the EU has nothing to do with what is currently going on with Russia, North Korea and the USA. I love how you are now trying to tie Brexit into Trump's grievance with Russia and North Korea. Brexit has nothing to do with this escalation happening at the moment.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 306556
> View attachment 306557
> View attachment 306558
> View attachment 306559
> View attachment 306560


Look the people spoke on the 23rd June 2016 and that was to leave the EU and that is being respected and honoured as promised in all the literature everyone received and what was said on TV even though it is 9 months late on being activated Article 50 has been triggered. This is a democratic country with a democratically elected party (The Conservatives) the Referendum was legit and legal and now after the new Government got corrected the triggering of article 50 is legal as well. The Government decided to respect the will of the majority however small the statistics are to leave the EU and that means cutting ties with Common Market and Single Market and anything else that ties the UK to the EU. Parliament has backed this by not putting any Amendments to the article 50 bill.

So you want another chance to vote when over 10,000 people could not be bothered to vote, many remain supporters voted leave because they thought the results wouldn't be respected and acted upon even though it said it would be acted on everywhere, the Referendum was a once in a life time vote as said many times again, and many people thought the referendum was a joke and voted leave as they thought it was a joke to do so, x amount of people spoiled there ballot sheet and then you have those that refrained from voting at all. So why should another Referendum be granted?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Leaving the EU has nothing to do with what is currently going on with Russia, North Korea and the USA. I love how you are now trying to tie Brexit into Trump's grievance with Russia and North Korea. Brexit has nothing to do with this escalation happening at the moment.


Oh, do not deceive yourself.
So no Farage peddling his ideas in USA? America first?
They were actually looking at Britain. Trump did not win by a land slide, but actually by a whisker.
If not Brexit? Not effect of that really toxic populism?
Now we have Brexit, trade war with EU, we are heading for crash Brexit, we are making problems for both EU and UK.

Exactly as I was trying to warn you...
Destabilizing UK, EU and USA is really dangerous for the whole world.
There were some positively jeering" so Brexit will lead to WWIII"...

Do not kid yourself. It is dangerous not only for Gibraltar.

By the way: We have real enemy warship in our waters and this is police boat trying to chase them out.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Leaving the EU has nothing to do with what is currently going on with Russia, North Korea and the USA. I love how you are now trying to tie Brexit into Trump's grievance with Russia and North Korea. Brexit has nothing to do with this escalation happening at the moment.


You're missing the point. Brexit was the catalyst. Voters were encouraged by brexit to vote for Trump. Didn't you yourself see it as some kind of revolution - the referendum result then Trump?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Leaving the EU has nothing to do with what is currently going on with Russia, North Korea and the USA. I love how you are now trying to tie Brexit into Trump's grievance with Russia and North Korea. Brexit has nothing to do with this escalation happening at the moment.


I'm afraid Brexit has everything to do with it. 2016 saw a surge in the far right with Brexit and the far right shift within the Tory party which wasn't the government elected in 2015.

People who voted for Blair didn't get Corbyn and Abbott did they?



stockwellcat said:


> Look the people spoke on the 23rd June 2016 and that was to leave the EU and that is being respected and honoured as promised in all the literature everyone received and what was said on TV even though it is 9 months late on being activated Article 50 has been triggered. This is a democratic country with a democratically elected party (The Conservatives) the Referendum was legit and legal and now after the new Government got corrected the triggering of article 50 is legal as well. The Government decided to respect the will of the majority however small the statistics are to leave the EU and that means cutting ties with Common Market and Single Market and anything else that ties the UK to the EU. Parliament has backed this by not putting any Amendments to the article 50 bill.
> 
> So you want another chance to vote when over 10,000 people could not be bothered to vote, many remain supporters voted leave because they thought the results wouldn't be respected and acted upon even though it said it would be acted on everywhere, the Referendum was a once in a life time vote as said many times again, and many people thought the referendum was a joke and voted leave as they thought it was a joke to do so, so, x amount of people spoiled there ballot sheet and then you have those that refrained from voting at all. So why should another Referendum be granted?


Desperate times call for desperate posts like this one. You again ignore the victory was a slim one with significant areas, notably Scotland, NI and Gibraltar completely ignored.

You said yourself in an earlier post the UK would remain a member of the EEA with access to the single market and freedom of movement maintained.

If you once thought this, how many other leave voters did too?

I certainly agree with your comments about spoilt papers and the likes. Many didn't take the referendum seriously or saw it as a protest against Cameron and his government.

I also agree, to a point, another referendum would be a waste of time at the moment. While the far right press continue to praise everything Brexit and detest anything European many of their readers will follow them like sheep as per usual.

But I would support a Scottish Independence referendum and similar elsewhere. Their people should decide whether they want May to rule them or their democratically elected leaders.

For May to refuse to permit this she must be frightened....


----------



## Bisbow

So North Korea tests a nuclear bomb
Brexits fault
Trump retaliates
Brexics fault
Then Putin reacts
Brexics fault

How low can you go to try to prove we are all at fault by voting out, dig much deeper and the bottom of the barrow will fall apart. Again Brexits fault
It is dull and cold this morning, but I suppose that's Brexits fault as well


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/media/c...tacular-own-goal-by-insulting-liverpool-again

















Significant perhaps, Liverpool voted Remain!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Leaving the EU has nothing to do with what is currently going on with Russia, North Korea and the USA. I love how you are now trying to tie Brexit into Trump's grievance with Russia and North Korea. Brexit has nothing to do with this escalation happening at the moment.


Hillarious, you 've cheered Trump as a demonstration of popularism and how other countries are rising up (which they haven't) and it's all started with Brexit and now, when the example shows how it can go wrong it's nothing to do with him. Too late, they are connected as you voted for exactly the same lies.. "take back control", "make america great again" with no recognition of the effects.



stockwellcat said:


> Look the people spoke on the 23rd June 2016 and that was to leave the EU and that is being respected and honoured as promised in all the literature


Other than parliamentary legislation and newspaper articles before the referendum stating how the referendum was non-binding. Shame the government is breaking so many promises in little things like the manefesto which they were elected for.



> The Government decided to respect the will of the majority however small the statistics are to leave the EU and that means cutting ties with Common Market and Single Market and anything else that ties the UK to the EU. Parliament has backed this by not putting any Amendments to the article 50 bill.
> 
> So you want another chance to vote when over 10,000 people could not be bothered to vote, many remain supporters voted leave because they thought the results wouldn't be respected and acted upon even though it said it would be acted on everywhere


And here you have contradiction. So it's not the will of the people is it, it's a mere 37% of the electorate on the day with many voting for lies. I'm sorry, nobody did that did they even though you can't provide reasoning other than which is based on lies.

The reason you and the government don't want a second vote when the terms are known is the simple fact that you know the majority will not agree with any terms you are going to get. It's incredible how democracy to you is based on a single opinion poll.

Edit: Oh.. welcome back again.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> It is dull and cold this morning, but I suppose that's Brexits fault as well


I thought the EU were blamed for the UK weather by giving preference to the Mediterranean countries.........


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> I thought the EU were blamed for the UK weather by giving preference to the Mediterranean countries.........


Some people blame EU for all the wrongs in the world, why not blame them for our the weather as well.


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> So North Korea tests a nuclear bomb
> Brexits fault
> Trump retaliates
> Brexics fault
> Then Putin reacts
> Brexics fault
> 
> How low can you go to try to prove we are all at fault by voting out, dig much deeper and the bottom of the barrow will fall apart. Again Brexits fault
> It is dull and cold this morning, but I suppose that's Brexits fault as well


Hey, you missed an important bit! Ive just burnt my toast! I blame it on brexit


----------



## Dr Pepper

All joking aside, the relationship between Russia and the EU have today hit a new low, they are not going to broadcast the Eurovision song contest 

Bet it's Brexit's fault.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Nothing to do with brexit 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39596927


----------



## Dr Pepper

Happy Paws said:


> Nothing to do with brexit
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39596927


Someone will come up with a reason why that's our fault no doubt. If not I'll take full and personal responsibility anyway.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Someone will come up with a reason why that's our fault no doubt. If not I'll take full and personal responsibility anyway.


Do watch it, load of rubbish and too much political voting goes on


----------



## 1290423

Anyway, to show there is no animosity, I am going to leave this thread with a kind gesture, a little gift for whoever chooses to use it


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Do watch it, load of rubbish and too much political voting goes on


I agree it's rubbish. Don't agree it's political voting though. People vote for music they know, like and is part of their culture. For example that's why all the former Yugoslavia countries vote for each other, it's like Surrey voting for Kent. And why, usually, the UK and Ireland vote well for each other, it's music we know and understand. It's only the late Mr Wogan that kept on about it being political.

I think.


----------



## Arnie83

These posts are jolly amusing, but from where I'm looking the Brexit vote so far has had a very limited but unfavourable effect.

The rise in incidents which have the unfortunate heading of 'hate crimes' have shown how those with an instinctive dislike of what they see as foreigners have been emboldened. Some clearly feel that their views are somehow less abhorrent, more mainstream. They aren't, of course.

And it seems that quite a few EU nationals living in the UK are feeling less welcome than they did. One of the lauded 'British' attributes of tolerance has appeared to wane somewhat. I suppose the glee of some Brexiters along with the delayed resolution of the residency / rights issues has had a predictable effect.

Further afield and the more extreme nationalists have of course been similarly emboldened. 'If the UK can throw out the migrants then so can we' is the clear assumption.

I'm struggling to see any positive effects of the vote so far, but I'm sure someone will be able to educate me.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I'm struggling to see any positive effects of the vote so far, but I'm sure someone will be able to educate me.


GBP devaluation.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> GBP devaluation.


Well of course that is a very double edged sword and I would suggest the negatives outweigh the positives, given that we import so much more than we export and have been experiencing record deficits recently.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> GBP devaluation.


Which means inflation and price rise.
Though those who had shares notched nice rise in their valuation reports.
Database went crazy....Imagine the spin it put on anti money- laundering operations.
But for those who had savings and earnings in pounds...especially pensioners expats...less fun.
All pensions actually shrank, benefits etc...first time in decades real value of wages fell..


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Well of course that is a very double edged sword and I would suggest the negatives outweigh the positives


No it isn't. You asked for positive effects. I gave you one. You didn't specify for whom the effects were to be positive. If you meant positive for one particular constituent you ought to have been specific. I can only respond for my own case and I can assure you that the positives by far have outweighed the negatives.

You constantly whine that nobody responds to your demands for rationale and when somebody does you p1ss off on some tangential non-sequitur. It is just plain rude of you.



Arnie83 said:


> we import so much more than we export and have been experiencing record deficits recently.


I don't know who is this 'we' you refer too but I don't import anything, at least not directly. You must have confused me who somebody else.

I'm done with this thread. ;-)


----------



## samuelsmiles

Satori said:


> GBP devaluation.


Yep - all good here. With the value of the pound falling my exports have increased greatly this new year. Very happy with the way things are progressing.


----------



## cheekyscrip

samuelsmiles said:


> Yep - all good here. With the value of the pound falling my exports have increased greatly this new year. Very happy with the way things are progressing.


Of course Brexit will benefit select few.
But then you can say some people made money on every war , world wars inclusive.
So because wars were good for some businesses that might justify them?
Wars are still good business.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> No it isn't. You asked for positive effects. I gave you one. You didn't specify for whom the effects were to be positive. If you meant positive for one particular constituent you ought to have been specific. I can only respond for my own case and I can assure you that the positives by far have outweighed the negatives.
> 
> You constantly whine that nobody responds to your demands for rationale and when somebody does you p1ss off on some tangential non-sequitur. It is just plain rude of you.
> 
> I don't know who is this 'we' you refer too but I don't import anything, at least not directly. You must have confused me who somebody else.
> 
> I'm done with this thread. ;-)


Apologies; I was clearly a little imprecise in my request. I was referring to positive effects for the country as a whole. The 'we' is the average inhabitant of the UK, the one who is now seeing inflation at 2.3% and with probably more to come as the import price rises work their way through.

But I guess to follow your line of reasoning and look at individual cases, the increase in hate crimes and the less tolerant attitudes towards our immigrant community are very positive for those who view them as such.

It was in the vein of looking more holistically that I mentioned the downsides of devaluation to those of the population who aren't exporters or currency speculators or the other groups who might benefit from it. As such I don't consider that a tangential non-sequitur since it is completely relevant to the issue. But you are right in that some of those who take a particularly selfish view will no doubt be able to point to individual improvements in their circumstances. Congratulations on yours.


----------



## Satori

*Support for Brexit hits a five-month high, with 55 per cent of UK population now backing exit from European Union*

Credit: Paul Grover for the Telegraph

Support for Brexit has hit a five month high, with 55 per cent of the population now backing Britain's exit from the European Union, a new poll has found.

A new survey from Orb International shows a four per cent boost for Theresa May in days after she triggered the start of Brexit talks at the end of last month.

Dissatisfaction with Brexit is now at its lowest level since the survey started last November, with just 45 per cent opposed to leaving the EU.

The poll by *Orb International* also shows that Britons are more concerned about trade talks than immigration for the first time as formal negotiations about Brexit get underway.

The survey found that 47 per cent of voters disagreed that "controlling immigration [was] more important than access to free trade".

Analysis of the figures showed that the swing in opinion has been driven by pensioners, with the proportion of those prioritising immigration over trade falling from 61 per cent in March to 47 per cent in April.

Sir Michael Caine on Brexit: I'd rather be a poor master than a rich servant 00:26
Confidence that immigration can be controlled is also down, with only 58 per cent believing that the UK will have greater control over immigration once withdrawal from the EU is complete.

Johnny Heald, managing director of *Orb International*, said: "Since November the British public are slowly becoming more comfortable with idea of Brexit and, each month, more are approving of the way in which the government is dealing with negotiations.

"However, as these talks develop, it's interesting that the public is increasingly concerned more about free trade agreements than immigration marking a reversal of the preference aired during the campaign."

For the third successive month more than half of the British public - 55 per cent - approves of the way that Brexit talks are being handled. Disapproval is at its lowest level yet - 45 per cent.

However the poll found that just over 40 per cent of voters believed or strongly believed that Theresa May, the Prime Minister, "will get the right deal for Britain in the Brexit negotiations".


----------



## KittenKong

Well, you'd expect that from the Telegraph! Still, hardly encouraging that just over 40% believe TM will get the "best deal".

I wonder what percentage of the population Orb International asked for their poll? They never asked me for one!

You also omitted this:


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> I wonder what percentage of the population Orb International asked for their poll? They never asked me for one!


They'll ask you when the Sun is doing a poll, don't worry.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Yep - all good here. With the value of the pound falling my exports have increased greatly this new year. Very happy with the way things are progressing.


But will your gains outweigh the trashing of the environment, ramping up climate change, destruction of our NHS, ditching of the Human Rights Act & being Trumps poodle?


----------



## Arnie83

> The poll by *Orb International* also shows that Britons are more concerned about trade talks than immigration for the first time as formal negotiations about Brexit get underway.
> 
> The survey found that 47 per cent of voters disagreed that "controlling immigration [was] more important than access to free trade".


Fascinating.

So the Tories' stated intention to take us out of the Single Market and the Customs Union in order to control immigration can no longer be claimed to represent "The Will of the People", can it.

Or does the will of the people only matter when it happens to coincide with that of the Tory Brexiteers.


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> Yep - all good here. With the value of the pound falling my exports have increased greatly this new year. Very happy with the way things are progressing.


So tell me, what is the average pay rise for anyone associated with the business and is it keeping up with inflation? I assume it is above 2.3%. Many are not. In fact after factoring in UK inflation, employees based here will experience the third lowest wage increase in Europe next year in 'real terms'.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/16/campbell-attacks-mays-easter-message-to-nation


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/16/campbell-attacks-mays-easter-message-to-nation
> View attachment 306693
> View attachment 306694
> View attachment 306696
> View attachment 306697


The woman is clearly delusional. How can anyone believe a word she says And she has the nerve to spout about Christian values when SHE has created so much poverty, misery & suffering. 

David Schneider time lol

As Theresa May talks about her Christian values in her Easter
message, here's a reminder of her
favourite Bible quotes


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> *Support for Brexit hits a five-month high, with 55 per cent of UK population now backing exit from European Union*
> 
> Credit: Paul Grover for the Telegraph
> 
> Support for Brexit has hit a five month high, with 55 per cent of the population now backing Britain's exit from the European Union, a new poll has found.
> 
> A new survey from Orb International shows a four per cent boost for Theresa May in days after she triggered the start of Brexit talks at the end of last month.
> 
> Dissatisfaction with Brexit is now at its lowest level since the survey started last November, with just 45 per cent opposed to leaving the EU.
> 
> The poll by *Orb International* also shows that Britons are more concerned about trade talks than immigration for the first time as formal negotiations about Brexit get underway.
> 
> The survey found that 47 per cent of voters disagreed that "controlling immigration [was] more important than access to free trade".
> 
> Analysis of the figures showed that the swing in opinion has been driven by pensioners, with the proportion of those prioritising immigration over trade falling from 61 per cent in March to 47 per cent in April.
> 
> Sir Michael Caine on Brexit: I'd rather be a poor master than a rich servant 00:26
> Confidence that immigration can be controlled is also down, with only 58 per cent believing that the UK will have greater control over immigration once withdrawal from the EU is complete.
> 
> Johnny Heald, managing director of *Orb International*, said: "Since November the British public are slowly becoming more comfortable with idea of Brexit and, each month, more are approving of the way in which the government is dealing with negotiations.
> 
> "However, as these talks develop, it's interesting that the public is increasingly concerned more about free trade agreements than immigration marking a reversal of the preference aired during the campaign."
> 
> For the third successive month more than half of the British public - 55 per cent - approves of the way that Brexit talks are being handled. Disapproval is at its lowest level yet - 45 per cent.
> 
> However the poll found that just over 40 per cent of voters believed or strongly believed that Theresa May, the Prime Minister, "will get the right deal for Britain in the Brexit negotiations".


Apparently it's been reported this was a sample of just 2,000 people. Hardly representative of the entire UK!


----------



## noushka05

Here we go. Another one!

UK denies residency to a Greek-German couple now

The Home Office have refused a Greek and German couple's post-referendum application to have their
British born children recognised as permanent residents of the UK.










Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark and Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg-Gotha revealed their devastation
after becoming embroiled in a "bureaucratic nightmare".

"One simply cant believe it," said Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.

"We were told we had to provide more evidence of where our children lived.

"What evidence are they supposed to have? They don't have council tax bills, or any bills for that matter."

Mr Greece and Denmark who was born in Mon Repos on the Greek island of Corfu, said the situation was "ghastly".

"I understand that people are angry about people coming over here, claiming vast sums in benefits and never doing a day's work, but Prince Edward was born in London."

http://newsthump.com/2017/04/14/uk-denies-residency-to-british-born-children-of-greek-german-couple/


----------



## Honeys mum

I will leave this topic now , with these,
Brexit a LANDSLIDE VICTORY if held as a general election says ex boss | UK | News | Express.co.uk


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> I will leave this topic now , with this.
> Brexit a LANDSLIDE VICTORY if held as a general election says ex boss | UK | News | Express.co.uk


How very sad.


----------



## Goblin

Article 50 can still be reversed so not finished yet. Support for May is not support for Brexit or have you not noticed.. there is no opposition. Of course you also have the question, why isn't she risking an election? She knows polls are fickle. Wouldn't take a lot for her real support to be exposed would it. Can you imagine trying to defend her "mandate" when people vote against her even with no opposition.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Apparently it's been reported this was a sample of just 2,000 people. Hardly representative of the entire UK!
> View attachment 306746


More info re the Telegraph's article:


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> "Less than 4 out of 10 think that immigration is more important than having access to free trade."


I know I've said it before, but how is this still government policy when it is specifically against the will of the people?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I know I've said it before, but how is this still government policy when it is specifically against the will of the people?


Well, you know May's anti immigration stance since she was Home Secretary.

She will pretend it's the, "Will of the people" in much the same way she insists everyone is united behind her....


----------



## Satori

Honeys mum said:


> I will leave this topic now





Arnie83 said:


> How very sad.


Awww.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Awww.


I think you misunderstand.


----------



## noushka05

This -


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> This -
> 
> View attachment 306814


I don't know anyone who disagrees with you.


----------



## KittenKong

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_58f47aefe4b0da2ff8619ddb


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_58f47aefe4b0da2ff8619ddb
> 
> View attachment 306815
> View attachment 306816


Outrageous.


----------



## MollySmith

Honeys mum said:


> I will leave this topic now , with these,
> Brexit a LANDSLIDE VICTORY if held as a general election says ex boss | UK | News | Express.co.uk


Oh gosh, I have _no idea_ what I was worried about. Thanks Nigel...but wait....


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39622335

Sound familiar to anyone?


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear. I'm sure many UK holiday makers who voted for Brexit didn't expect this, although they're all for the UK implementing stricter border controls.

Stop moaning- you voted for this!


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Stop moaning- you voted for this!


Not moaning about this at all thanks. Don't care about whether people have to wait a bit longer to get to their cheap Sangria and tacky all-inclusive hotels.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear. I'm sure many UK holiday makers who voted for Brexit didn't expect this, although they're all for the UK implementing stricter border controls.
> 
> Stop moaning- you voted for this!
> View attachment 306824
> View attachment 306825
> View attachment 306826


What! Long queues at an Airport on a bank holiday weekend. Madness!!

In other news, there was also long queues on the M25!

Your attempts at twisting news to relate back to the UK leaving the EU are getting more desperate as the days go on.


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> What! Long queues at an Airport on a bank holiday weekend. Madness!!
> 
> In other news, there was also long queues on the M25!
> 
> Your attempts at twisting news to relate back to the UK leaving the EU are getting more desperate as the days go on.


Would you deny the government are waking up to the cost of losing these two prestigious agencies due to leaving the EU?


----------



## noushka05

.Will brexiteers still think leaving the EU is worth it if green issues become bargaining chips to secure trade deals? People ok with wildlife trafficking ?

*Green groups warn of 'race to the bottom' *http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39592515

*Environmental groups have urged the prime minister to avoid watering down legislation on climate change and wildlife protection after Brexit.*

The letter, signed by WWF, Greenpeace and others, says action is needed to halt ongoing environmental decline.

The UK government previously said it would leave the environment in a better state
for future generations*. *

But the letter expresses concern that Brexit could force ministers to backtrack on this promise.

Newspaper reports based on leaked documents have suggested that trade and growth would be prioritised at the expense of efforts to tackle global warming and the illegal trade in wildlife.

A government spokesperson said the UK's commitment to the environment was as strong as ever.

The spokesperson said the documents referenced in the media were old "unclassified notes" based on a conference from several months ago.

The letter from campaigners says: "We are alarmed by recent media reports suggesting that the UK's commitments to tackling climate change and ending the illegal wildlife trade could be watered down to secure post-Brexit trade deals."

It added: "To be a great, global trading nation, the UK must deliver on its promises for the environment and the climate and honour our international commitments.

"In doing so we will help build a greener, better and more prosperous future for everyone, rather than driving an environmental race to the bottom

(& so on )


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> Would you deny the government are waking up to the cost of losing these two prestigious agencies due to leaving the EU?
> 
> View attachment 306888


Seems logical to me that those agencies would relocate to be in the EU yeah.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I don't even pretend I understand everying I am reading or hearing on the news, but sounds like, we are really on the back foot at the moment, so many companies are thinking of leaving to UK, if they do we'll be in a right mess.


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> Seems logical to me that those agencies would relocate to be in the EU yeah.


Absolutely. Ludicrously the government & many other brexiteers seem surprised and far from happy about it. They seem to be blaming Brussels for punishing us when the punishment is obviously self-inflicted 

Here's what oncologist Clive Peedell says on the affect losing the EMA will have on us -

*Clive Peedell*‏@*cpeedell* 22h22 hours ago

Loss of European Medicines Agency will mean longer times for approval of new anti-cancer drugs and therapies #*Brexit*


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> I don't even pretend I understand everying I am reading or hearing on the news, but sounds like, we are really on the back foot at the moment, so many companies are thinking of leaving to UK, if they do we'll be in a right mess.


Its an absolute shambles. And for what gain? Why will no brexiteer answer this question


----------



## noushka05

Well done Nicola Sturgeon for doing everything possible to protect Scotlands NHS from Tory destruction.

EU NHS workers leaving in droves. How much longer can our NHS last now??

*Nicola Sturgeon*‏Verified [email protected]*NicolaSturgeon* Apr 16

See thread







. UK government was warned about
consequence of abolishing nursing bursary.
@*scotgov* will retain.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Here are some reminders of Leave lies -


----------



## cheekyscrip

Spain making border queues? On request from Rajoy?
@KittenKong now you know why we do not want Spanish government here?
Actually pretty stupid action from PP considering that it is killing the Golden Goose.
Come here by plane and no problem.
Spanish themselves have very little trust in their authorities....
Greece is better choice..
Or Bulgaria, Poland etc. for this year summer holidays.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> I will leave this topic now , with these,
> Brexit a LANDSLIDE VICTORY if held as a general election says ex boss | UK | News | Express.co.uk


Yeah thanks a lot Nige, for helping make this world a far safer place by spreading your nationalism & hatemongering.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Your attempts at twisting news to relate back to the UK leaving the EU are getting more desperate as the days go on.


Hardly. The Spanish are only practicing what the UK is preaching. Treating none nationals in a hostile manner. The UK government still won't guarantee the rights of EU citizens already in the UK for heavens sake.

If the UK want strict border controls they must expect similar vice versa.

Being "British" doesn't give anyone special privileges.


cheekyscrip said:


> Spain making border queues? On request from Rajoy?
> @KittenKong now you know why we do not want Spanish government here?
> Actually pretty stupid action from PP considering that it is killing the Golden Goose.
> Come here by plane and no problem.
> Spanish themselves have very little trust in their authorities....


Well, this wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for this stupid referendum. No one is saying the Spanish government are angels or anything.
You may not want the Spanish government here but is rule under Theresa May any better? The border will be closed regardless. A no win situation either way.

What was wrong with anything only a couple of years ago? Things were great then.

Blame the UK government and holding the in-out referendum for the mess everyone's in, and the media for promoting Brexit the way they did. The lies, everything but not the EU.

The recent "Yes"/"No" referendum in Turkey had a very similar outcome funnily enough.....


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.stilleu.uk/theresa-may-not-speak/


----------



## noushka05

The NHS relies on immigrants from more than 200 countries - more than 60,000 of whom are EU nationals. And we're kicking them in the teeth. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-did...s-1616335?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Hardly.* The Spanish are* only practicing what the* UK is preaching*. Treating none nationals in a hostile manner.


It isn't us breaching EU laws


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> http://www.stilleu.uk/theresa-may-not-speak/
> View attachment 306905


Well I am behind her 100%. She is an outstanding PM approaching Maggie in stature. One of the greats.


----------



## noushka05

This is so sad. A series of tweets from a Polish Radiologist this morning >>

Good morning loves. Writing my letter of resignation today. I can't stay in a country that treats me like shit while overworking me.

This isn't easy for me to write, especially since it means I'll be leaving a place I've invested so much into and vice-versa.

I can't stay here. I can't stay in the UK. The hate I had before the referendum was bad, but after has been insufferable a year onward.

The people who hate me for being who I am also rely on me and my services. Something they voted to essentially take out at the knees.


Over the past year my hours have been longer. Work has been harder. Resources have been diminishing and there is no sign of improvement.

The NHS was once a proud symbol of Britain. I felt proud to work for the NHS. Today I do not, and the abuse I get isn't worth staying.

So I feel no remorse leaving behind an understaffed and overworked organisation when I've seen just a 0.7% salary increase for 38% increase


I'm going home. I'm going to work and live in the EU where my work is appreciated, I'm paid appropriately, my hours are reasonable, and

I won't have to worry about my next meal; something any medical professional should never have to do at any point in their life

My only regret, if I can say it is one, is that I can't take the loving and amazing NHS staff I've worked so long and hard with for ages.

For an organisation so reliant on the EU, the EU nationals have an escape that Brits do not. We can go back and thrive. These Brits are

and I mean this analogy, stuck on an island with nowhere to go. Much like the patients they will have to tend to metaphorically


Don't worry about me. I'll be fine with the rest of the EU. It's Britain I'm going to worry about.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Well I am behind her 100%. She is an outstanding PM approaching Maggie in stature. One of the greats.


Well you would think that.

NHS cut
Benefits cut
Schools cut
Social care cut
Councils cut
Libraries cut
Sure Start cut

Corporation tax cut
Top rate of tax cut


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> It isn't us breaching EU laws


Let's face it though. The government IS taking the UK out of the EU. The UK has effectively left now Article 50 has been triggered.

Former EU colleagues and allies can hardly be expected to treat the UK as one of their own. The argument, "We haven't left yet" no longer applies. If it did they'll have to put up with it from 2019 anyway.

Four days into triggering Article 50, mutterings about declaring war on Spain. The EU has prevented wars between member states for well over 60 years!!!!

Is any of this surprising?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The UK has effectively left now Article 50 has been triggered.


We are still members and still pay into the corrupt system. That system should still be looking after our interests under their own laws, so why is Spain allowed to get away with so much.........? Not just now either

Just shows even more why we should be out. They can't even uphold their own laws. That's why so many countries are breaking them while the bureaucratise sit on their arses making more to be flouted


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> We are still members and still pay into the corrupt system. That system should still be looking after our interests under their own laws, so why is Spain allowed to get away with so much.........? Not just now either


Really after all the hostility shown towards the EU and Europe in general by the UK?

Funny how Britain and May of course can't do wrong with some, (not necessarily saying or suggesting this is your personal point of view).

The EU have been blamed for ridiculous things like the demise of traditional industries, not the opinion of Thatcher at the time. You name it it's always their fault regardless.

Now the UK has left/leaving they're still getting the blame!

You couldn't make it up.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The EU has prevented wars between member states for well over 60 years


While taking us over by stealth......................


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Really after all the hostility shown towards the EU and Europe in general by the UK?


But that's just paper talk.........You know, those things you keep referring us to?

We have not broken EU law. They have


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Hardly. The Spanish are only practicing what the UK is preaching. Treating none nationals in a hostile manner. The UK government still won't guarantee the rights of EU citizens already in the UK for heavens sake.
> 
> If the UK want strict border controls they must expect similar vice versa.
> 
> Being "British" doesn't give anyone special privileges.


The point its that Airports are often crowded and pushed to the limits at this time of the year. Its not news relating to Brexit.


----------



## rona

stuaz said:


> The point its that Airports are often crowded and pushed to the limits at this time of the year. Its not news relating to Brexit.


I believe there were queues at Heathrow 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...-as-bank-holiday-getaway-begins-a3514326.html


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> The point its that Airports are often crowded and pushed to the limits at this time of the year. Its not news relating to Brexit.





rona said:


> I believe there were queues at Heathrow
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...-as-bank-holiday-getaway-begins-a3514326.html


Of course, you are both right in that respect. The Express did report this after all with the, "Look what the horrible Spanish are doing to us Brits?", while supporting stricter border controls in the UK attitude.

The point is, if the Express are correct this will become the norm in the future post Brexit as EU countries adopt similar border controls for non EEA member states. I understand they've already ended Visa free travel for US citizens for example. Now UK will be added to the list in due course.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Hardly. The Spanish are only practicing what the UK is preaching. Treating none nationals in a hostile manner. The UK government still won't guarantee the rights of EU citizens already in the UK for heavens sake.
> 
> ..


Actually wasn't that about the first thing Mrs May wanted to do, guarantee EU citizens already here would be able stay, but the EU refused to agree (as of yet) that UK citizens could stay in the EU? Has to work both ways and so far it's the EU that put the brakes on that particular negotiations.

Pretty sure that was widely reported a few months ago. Can't be bothered to find a linky thingy as that just makes it a argument rather than a discussion using free thought.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Of course, you are both right in that respect. The Express did report this after all with the, "Look what the horrible Spanish are doing to us Brits?", while supporting stricter border controls in the UK attitude.
> 
> The point is, if the Express are correct this will become the norm in the future post Brexit as EU countries adopt similar border controls for non EEA member states. I understand they've already ended Visa free travel for US citizens for example. Now UK will be added to the list in due course.


Airports are businesses, they will not want lots of unhappy customers so will soon adjust to an increase in UK tourists using the "non EU door" and react accordingly.

Or people just queue. When visiting non-EU countries, you will often see the queues with the "non locals" in it.

Its really not a big drama.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually wasn't that about the first thing Mrs May wanted to do, guarantee EU citizens already here would be able stay, but the EU refused to agree (as of yet) that UK citizens could stay in the EU? Has to work both ways and so far it's the EU that put the brakes on that particular negotiations.
> 
> Pretty sure that was widely reported a few months ago. Can't be bothered to find a linky thingy as that just makes it a argument rather than a discussion using free thought.


May is making immigration reduction and control priory over remaining in the single market.

The leavers convinced the voters the UK would remain in the single market yet with the ability to reduce and control immigration as the EU needed the UK more than vice versa.

The EU quite rightly said no to such cherry-picking.

This state of affairs could have been avoided if they were committed to remaining part of the EEA. The referendum paper never asked to remain or leave that, only the EU.

The whole referendum has a touch of deja vu with the events in Turkey recently which has a similar 52% "victory"


----------



## Dr Pepper

stuaz said:


> Airports are businesses, they will not want lots of unhappy customers so will soon adjust to an increase in UK tourists using the "non EU door" and react accordingly.
> 
> Or people just queue. When visiting non-EU countries, you will often see the queues with the "non locals" in it.
> 
> Its really not a big drama.


Do you know what, and again I feel pretty stupid, but when weighing up the pro's and con's as to how to vote a bit of extra holiday queuing time, if we went somewhere the EU, didn't register high on my list of priorities.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Airports are businesses, they will not want lots of unhappy customers so will soon adjust to an increase in UK tourists using the "non EU door" and react accordingly.
> 
> Or people just queue. When visiting non-EU countries, you will often see the queues with the "non locals" in it.
> 
> Its really not a big drama.


The thing is, frequent UK travellers to EU countries won't be used to being placed in the same queues as non EEA member states and will find it far more complicated than just showing a Passport and vice versa.

Non EEA members have to fill out a form when entering the UK for example at the present time. No doubt everyone without UK passports may have to.

Imagine how much time that would take, and do the government expect existing customs staff to cope with the increased workload or would they quadruple the staffing levels?


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Well I am behind her 100%. She is an outstanding PM approaching Maggie in stature. One of the greats.


I realise you are probably just being funny, but what has she actually done in the past 9 months to make her 'one of the greats'?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> We are still members and still pay into *the corrupt system*. That system should still be looking after our interests under their own laws, so why is Spain allowed to get away with so much.........? Not just now either
> 
> Just shows even more why we should be out. They can't even uphold their own laws. That's why so many countries are breaking them while the bureaucratise sit on their arses making more to be flouted


Could you please post some facts backing up this description that you repeatedly use? I'm interested in seeing some actual evidence for unusual corruption within the EU bureaucracy.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> May is making immigration reduction and control priory over remaining in the single market.
> 
> The leavers convinced the voters the UK would remain in the single market yet with the ability to reduce and control immigration as the EU needed the UK more than vice versa.
> 
> The EU quite rightly said no to such cherry-picking.
> 
> This state of affairs could have been avoided if they were committed to remaining part of the EEA. The referendum paper never asked to remain or leave that, only the EU.
> 
> The whole referendum has a touch of deja vu with the events in Turkey recently which has a similar 52% "victory"


No I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with any other negotiations, just a simple agreement that those currently here could stay, and vice-a-versa. The idea being that the contentious issue would be dealt with and not used as a bargaining chip.



KittenKong said:


> The thing is, frequent UK travellers to EU countries won't be used to being placed in the same queues as non EEA member states and will find it far more complicated than just showing a Passport and vice versa.
> 
> Non EEA members have to fill out a form when entering the UK for example at the present time. No doubt everyone without UK passports may have to.


And hows that different from when we travel outside the EU now? It'll soon be a non-issue as there is a whole world of holiday destinations most people with a passport will have already visited and as such be used to queuing and visas.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> The thing is, frequent UK travellers to EU countries won't be used to being placed in the same queues as non EEA member states and will find it far more complicated than just showing a Passport and vice versa.
> 
> Non EEA members have to fill out a form when entering the UK for example at the present time. No doubt everyone without UK passports may have to.
> 
> Imagine how much time that would take, and do the government expect existing customs staff to cope with the increased workload or would they quadruple the staffing levels?


The bottom line is the Airports have to cope, they have to adapt to any changes, be the changes security based or politically based. If they don't then as a business they eventually suffer and as a result so does Tourism.

As a frequent traveler (Worldwide) filling out forms is not unusual and part of travelling, and people will soon learn they have to do it when traveling to EU countries (Depending on how negotiations go).


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Well you would think that.
> 
> NHS cut
> Benefits cut
> Schools cut
> Social care cut
> Councils cut
> Libraries cut
> Sure Start cut
> 
> Corporation tax cut
> Top rate of tax cut


In your rush to agree with me you left off Article 50 triggered.


----------



## KittenKong

What on earth is going on now? An early General Election before Brexit negotiations have even started?

We'll soon find out.....









http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39627690


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> What on earth is going on now? An early General Election before Brexit negotiations have even started?
> 
> We'll soon find out.....
> View attachment 306914
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39627690


She'd never do that. She's a woman of her word


----------



## KittenKong

Jeezus, a snap General Election for June 8th and Corbyn's all for it. Another three line whip coming up I reckon.

The only hope is those areas that deserted the Lib Dems in the South of England in 2015 vote for them again.

Never felt so depressed since the day after the EU referendum.


----------



## noushka05

And so the prophecy was fulfilled.

Owen Jones predictions June 2016 .


----------



## 1290423

Well now! that's certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Could you please post some facts backing up this description that you repeatedly use? I'm interested in seeing some actual evidence for unusual corruption within the EU bureaucracy.


I did that in several posts way way back in this thread. I'm not looking for them again


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I did that in several posts way way back in this thread. I'm not looking for them again


There is no more a corrupt set of politicians than this Tory government. If you thought the EU was bad just wait till they have grabbed even more power 

When they further unshackle corporate interests to destroy & pillage our precious wildlife & environment and our NHS at least my conscience will be clear.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I did that in several posts way way back in this thread. I'm not looking for them again


You didn't actually, though I kept asking. Don't worry, I'll find them for you ...


----------



## Arnie83

@rona - here you go ..



Rona said:


> I also discovered on another site that The EU has ten times in percentage terms, misappropriate use of funds than the UK government. Even I was shocked at that one





Arnie83 said:


> I wonder, do you have a source for this where I can get some more details?


I asked two or three times, but you didn't respond. It's just that all my research has shown the EU bureaucracy to be no more 'corrupt' than any other, and in many cases less, and I wondered where you had found statistics that showed something different, because you keep referring to the EU as corrupt ...


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> @rona - here you go ..
> 
> I wonder, may I ask your views please?
> 
> 1. of the eu having not completed a full audit nor submitted finalised accounts in 24 years?
> 
> 2. Suggestions that a audit, to trial balance I assume? Showed a considerable amount unaccounted for?
> 
> 3. Is there any truth in the above two issues?
> 
> I asked two or three times, but you didn't respond. It's just that all my research has shown the EU bureaucracy to be no more 'corrupt' than any other, and in many cases less, and I wondered where you had found statistics that showed something different, because you keep referring to the EU as corrupt ...


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> @rona - here you go ..
> 
> I asked two or three times, but you didn't respond. It's just that all my research has shown the EU bureaucracy to be no more 'corrupt' than any other, and in many cases less, and I wondered where you had found statistics that showed something different, because you keep referring to the EU as corrupt ...


I wonder, may I ask your views please?

1. of the eu having not completed a full audit nor submitted final accounts in 24 years?

2. Suggestions , that the accounts albeit never finalised have shown there to be a considerable amount unaccounted for?

3. Is there any truth in the above two issues?


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> of the eu having not completed a full audit nor submitted finalised accounts in 24 years?


https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

So your statement is plainly false, as for errors and corruption, you'll say one thing, I'll say another. People like Farage fiddling the books of course is an issue the EU needs to resolve and they are investigating on how EU money was spent and if it was appropriate. Now I wonder if you can provide a figure for UK government spending and accounting "errors"?

Now the question.. how does leaving the EU help change things?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Hardly. The Spanish are only practicing what the UK is preaching. Treating none nationals in a hostile manner. The UK government still won't guarantee the rights of EU citizens already in the UK for heavens sake.
> 
> If the UK want strict border controls they must expect similar vice versa.
> 
> Being "British" doesn't give anyone special privileges.
> 
> Well, this wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for this stupid referendum. No one is saying the Spanish government are angels or anything.
> You may not want the Spanish government here but is rule under Theresa May any better? The border will be closed regardless. A no win situation either way.
> 
> What was wrong with anything only a couple of years ago? Things were great then.
> 
> Blame the UK government and holding the in-out referendum for the mess everyone's in, and the media for promoting Brexit the way they did. The lies, everything but not the EU.
> 
> The recent "Yes"/"No" referendum in Turkey had a very similar outcome funnily enough.....


I do blame them. Still May is temporary. As you understand. But once Spain gets Gibraltar it will be destroyed forever.
That is the difference.
May or Trump are not forever. People will eventually realise they had been duped , lied to and deceived.
If we do not like what I going on right now it does not mean we do not want to be British.
Many Americans must feel the same.
Or Russians, or Spanish...
We are still not Spanish.


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> I wonder, may I ask your views please?
> 
> 1. of the eu having not completed a full audit nor submitted final accounts in 24 years?
> 
> 2. Suggestions , that the accounts albeit never finalised have shown there to be a considerable amount unaccounted for?
> 
> 3. Is there any truth in the above two issues?


In the first one, not that I'm aware of. Accounts are submitted every year.

The second one, not that I'm aware of; though I guess it depends what you mean by 'considerable' and 'unaccounted for'.

The accounts have been signed off as "Fair & Accurate" every year since 2007. However, they have not been signed off as "Free from material error".

Material Error is defined as anything over 2% subject to error (which isn't the same as fraud or corruption, of course). In 2015 the error was 3.8%.

The errors were often in the way the money was allocated, in that the rules were not followed. But the errors are not generally in Brussels, but in the individual countries to whom the money is allocated for distribution, including the UK. The EU seeks then to reclaim monies which are distributed in error and between 2009 & 2015 has reclaimed approx. 2% of the distributed funds.



> In the UK's case, the Public Accounts Committee has criticised the government for designing programmes which add to the complexity of EU spending, and showing a "distinct lack of urgency" in tackling that complexity and reducing the penalties the UK needs to pay back to the EU.


So yes there are discrepancies in the accounts, but certainly nothing unusual, and generally not discrepancies that can be laid at the door of the "EU" per se, but rather of the member countries - including the UK - not following the rules.

Some of the 'errors' will no doubt be fraudulent or 'corrupt', and the EU has a department which seeks to uncover such occurrences and retrieve the money, but again the incidence is low, and is almost always within the member countries, including the UK.

It's also worth pointing out that the whole of the EU budget is roughly equivalent to the UK's NHS budget.

Separately from the EU, the UK has similar levels of error in the distribution of public funds. The last figure I saw was 4% but, sadly, I'm blowed if I can find the figures again. They certainly did nothing to suggest the UK was any better than the EU. But I have found nothing to suggest that the EU is any more subject to corruption than any other organisation, including the UK public sector.

MP's expenses, anyone?

I hope that answers your question. I have found the explanation in a number of publications, but the Full Fact org strikes me as very good and I paraphrased it quite alot in the above. You can find it here.


----------



## Arnie83

@DT

Since you asked so politely, some bonus research for you (and @rona )

On looking in the official Government website at the report from the public accounts committee, it seems that the error rate in payments of tax credits & benefits including pensions was 3.2% in 2015, or £6.2 billion

They're hoping to get this down all the way to just £5.8 billion by 2020-21

I don't suppose many people would consistently describe this country as "the corrupt UK", however.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...fraud-error-stocktake-report-published-15-16/


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> In the first one, not that I'm aware of. Accounts are submitted every year.
> 
> The second one, not that I'm aware of; though I guess it depends what you mean by 'considerable' and 'unaccounted for'.
> 
> The accounts have been signed off as "Fair & Accurate" every year since 2007. However, they have not been signed off as "Free from material error".
> 
> Material Error is defined as anything over 2% subject to error (which isn't the same as fraud or corruption, of course). In 2015 the error was 3.8%.
> 
> The errors were often in the way the money was allocated, in that the rules were not followed. But the errors are not generally in Brussels, but in the individual countries to whom the money is allocated for distribution, including the UK. The EU seeks then to reclaim monies which are distributed in error and between 2009 & 2015 has reclaimed approx. 2% of the distributed funds.
> 
> So yes there are discrepancies in the accounts, but certainly nothing unusual, and generally not discrepancies that can be laid at the door of the "EU" per se, but rather of the member countries - including the UK - not following the rules.
> 
> Some of the 'errors' will no doubt be fraudulent or 'corrupt', and the EU has a department which seeks to uncover such occurrences and retrieve the money, but again the incidence is low, and is almost always within the member countries, including the UK.
> 
> It's also worth pointing out that the whole of the EU budget is roughly equivalent to the UK's NHS budget.
> 
> Separately from the EU, the UK has similar levels of error in the distribution of public funds. The last figure I saw was 4% but, sadly, I'm blowed if I can find the figures again. They certainly did nothing to suggest the UK was any better than the EU. But I have found nothing to suggest that the EU is any more subject to corruption than any other organisation, including the UK public sector.
> 
> MP's expenses, anyone?
> 
> I hope that answers your question. I have found the explanation in a number of publications, but the Full Fact org strikes me as very good and I paraphrased it quite alot in the above. You can find it here.


Thank you for your response and the politeness of your reply, encouraged to learn more and shall certainly have a little peep later at the link to full fact org which you provided.
Wish we had have been allowed a 3.8% error thirty years ago, would have saved me a few late nights.


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Thank you for your response and the politeness of your reply, encouraged to learn more and shall certainly have a little peep later at the link to full fact org which you provided.
> Wish we had have been allowed a 3.8% error thirty years ago, would have saved me a few late nights.


It's interesting looking at the Benefit figures in the official government figures ...

The number of times over the last few years that we've heard about 'benefit fraud' as part of the demonisation of those on benefits; yet there is 3 times as much lost through good old-fashioned cock-ups in the government departments.

Repeating things often enough - like the problem of benefit fraud or the EU being corrupt - really do have a big effect on what people actually think regardless of the reality of the situation. As someone who is a bit pedantic regarding facts it annoys the hell out of me!


----------



## cheekyscrip

I understand no more Single Market access in manifesto?

Or maybe the the lock on pensions?
Or no tax rises?

Just Brexit is Brexit will do?


Well..you have been WARNED.


----------



## KittenKong

This is just sinister....























Crushing the opposition, even rebel Tories?

Sounds like what's happened in Turkey over the weekend.


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> This is just sinister....
> 
> Crushing the opposition, even rebel Tories?
> 
> Sounds like what's happened in Turkey over the weekend.


Sounds like what's happened in every hard line dictatorship ever...


----------



## KittenKong

So May can't get away with having an election to deflect from Brexit bad news here are some reminders:


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> I do blame them. Still May is temporary. As you understand. But once Spain gets Gibraltar it will be destroyed forever.
> That is the difference.
> We are still not Spanish.


Why will Spain get Gibraltar? Have I missed something?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Why will Spain get Gibraltar? Have I missed something?


That is to been seen. May deliberately did not include my little nation in Article 50. Against wishes of Foreign Ministry and Chief Minister of Gibraltar.
Tusk gave veto over Gibraltar to Spain ( against our wishes) as Weber stated " to retaliate for Brexit".
May punished us for voting Remain. EU punished us for voting to stay British.

Very worried people here waiting for " best deal" struck with Spain.


----------



## Elles

May was keen to stay in the Eu and the conservatives want to keep gib, not give it to Spain. Now Britain has confirmed we're out of the Eu, Spain are bound to enforce border control. They needed little excuse when we were part of the Eu. I suppose we'll see, but I hope we keep Gib as part of Britain. Are you Gibraltarean scrip?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> May was keen to stay in the Eu and the conservatives want to keep gib, not give it to Spain. Now Britain has confirmed we're out of the Eu, Spain are bound to enforce border control. They needed little excuse when we were part of the Eu. I suppose we'll see, but I hope we keep Gib as part of Britain. Are you Gibraltarean scrip?


Yes. I am llanita by marriage and nearly two decades here and five llanito kids ( three mine, two stepgirls) plus llanito hubby. 
I love it, even have a shelf space in family tomb waiting ready at the feet of my Rock...
Cannot think of moving. .
Dangerous times not only for our sovereignty but also our economy.


----------



## Elles

My son and his wife live in Gib, as do her close family. My daughter in law and her family are Gibraltarean. They married in Gib and had their reception in Spain, as part of their extended family live just over the border in Spain. They speak their version of Spanish and English. They seem quite relaxed about it all in a way. Have to admit, if it were me, I'd be seriously worried. If Spain gets Gib, where will my son and his wife be welcome? If they don't, what will happen to the relatives who live in Spain? It's all a bit odd.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> My son and his wife live in Gib, as do her close family. My daughter in law and her family are Gibraltarean. They married in Gib and had their reception in Spain, as part of their extended family live just over the border in Spain. They speak their version of Spanish and English. They seem quite relaxed about it all in a way. Have to admit, if it were me, I'd be seriously worried. If Spain gets Gib, where will my son and his wife be welcome? If they don't, what will happen to the relatives who live in Spain? It's all a bit odd.


Same here. Worried, because our economy depends on our status as much as open frontier. Main income being tourism and financial services .
Funny thing - Gibraltar is so tiny that there is likelihood I might know your family...or OH or his folk do...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> My son and his wife live in Gib, as do her close family. My daughter in law and her family are Gibraltarean. They married in Gib and had their reception in Spain, as part of their extended family live just over the border in Spain. They speak their version of Spanish and English. They seem quite relaxed about it all in a way. Have to admit, if it were me, I'd be seriously worried. If Spain gets Gib, where will my son and his wife be welcome? If they don't, what will happen to the relatives who live in Spain? It's all a bit odd.


I might even know them...it is really small place.
Very high winds today


----------



## Elles

You might know their dogs, if you're a dog person. They have those little prague ratter dogs, that aren't very common. Prz something krysaks or something like that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> You might know their dogs, if you're a dog person. They have those little prague ratter dogs, that aren't very common. Prz something krysaks or something like that.


I have a small dog, yes, seen those lil doggies around... a bit like miniature pinschers. Next time will look at the other end of the lead too!!;-)


----------



## KittenKong

Changed their stance somewhat haven't they?


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/trump-puts-eu-ahead-of-britain-in-trade-queue-l7t8zwn7k


----------



## KittenKong

Not sure where to place this as it's more about TM than Brexit.

Has it occurred to anyone why she's so far refusing to take part in TV debates?


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Changed their stance somewhat haven't they?
> View attachment 307604


Blinking heck
No one told me there was a law that said you could neither change your mind or alter your opinion!
Shucks @stockwellcat thats you n me cream crackered over the GE mate


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Changed their stance somewhat haven't they?
> View attachment 307604


Wow you kept the paper from 1973 and it's still in one piece 

Come on that was 44 years ago. Of course people's minds change. Look mine has changed about the conservatives, doesn't mean my mind has changed about Brexit though.

Can somebody show me where it says it's against the law to change your mind or stance?

May is in for a shock on polling day me thinks.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Wow you kept the paper from 1973 and it's still in one piece
> 
> Come on that was 44 years .


I reckon we should make a proposal
We should propose kk to the guiness book of records for them sucessfully collecting the highest number of comics over the past 44 years
Reckon they"d walk it:Bear


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

KittenKong said:


> Not sure where to place this as it's more about TM than Brexit.
> 
> Has it occurred to anyone why she's so far refusing to take part in TV debates?
> 
> View attachment 307696
> View attachment 307697
> View attachment 307698
> View attachment 307699
> View attachment 307700
> View attachment 307701
> View attachment 307702
> View attachment 307703


She sounds pretty obnoxious herself to be fair. British jobs for British workers was a labour/Gordon Brown jingo from way before Brexit. Please note I have made sure to provide a link from a paper on your approved list 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/jan/30/brown-british-jobs-workers


----------



## KittenKong

rottiepointerhouse said:


> She sounds pretty obnoxious herself to be fair. British jobs for British workers was a labour/Gordon Brown jingo from way before Brexit. Please note I have made sure to provide a link from a paper on your approved list
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/jan/30/brown-british-jobs-workers


Yes, I remember that. Think Brown was put on the spot in much the same way Tim Farron was when asked if he considered homosexually a sin in view of his Christian beliefs.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Wow you kept the paper from 1973 and it's still in one piece
> 
> Come on that was 44 years ago. Of course people's minds change. Look mine has changed about the conservatives, doesn't mean my mind has changed about Brexit though.
> 
> Can somebody show me where it says it's against the law to change your mind or stance?
> 
> May is in for a shock on polling day me thinks.


Absolutely. Just found it a bit odd the Mail claimed they campaigned for the day for 10 years! It's taken them a bit longer to campaign to leave though!

As a solid remainer nowadays I'lI openly admit supporting leaving the EEC when Labour under Micheal Foot proposed this.


----------



## Arnie83

rottiepointerhouse said:


> British jobs for British workers was a labour/Gordon Brown jingo from way before Brexit.


.. and a remarkably stupid thing to have said!


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> .. and a remarkably stupid thing to have said!





Arnie83 said:


> .. and a remarkably stupid thing to have said!


Arnie, I am looking for the post that you posted re a site with facts to trust
I cant find it, can you remind me,please @Arnie83


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Arnie, I am looking for the post that you posted re a site with facts to trust
> I cant find it, can you remind me,please @Arnie83


It's fullfact.org

As far as I can tell they're pretty good. I often come across things they say that inconveniently disagree with what I'd like them to say, which I take as a good sign of a lack of bias; something that seems increasingly hard to find in today's media.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Sadly...at the back of the queue again...









Our best friend Trump realised Mama Merkel has stronger hand than us...
So much for holding hands...


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Sadly...at the back of the queue again...
> View attachment 307990
> 
> 
> Our best friend Trump realised Mama Merkel has stronger hand than us...
> So much for holding hands...


You seen who has got through in france marcon v le penn


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> You seen who has got through in france marcon v le penn











Yep already know. The other two candidates conceded.

Bookies tomorrow. My bets on Le Penn.


----------



## stuaz

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 308014
> 
> Yep already know. The other two candidates conceded.
> 
> Bookies tomorrow. My bets on Le Penn.


It's an interesting election as I see it as nether party are considered the main parties (as far as I understand French politics anyway), which is interesting and perhaps a sign that the traditional parties are not striking the right cord anymore. Maybe similar will happen here?


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> You seen who has got through in france marcon v le penn


I wrote it few posts above...  , alas do you ever read it?
Nah...


----------



## stockwellcat.

stuaz said:


> It's an interesting election as I see it as nether party are considered the main parties (as far as I understand French politics anyway), which is interesting and perhaps a sign that the traditional parties are not striking the right cord anymore. Maybe similar will happen here?


They have a run off election on Sunday 7th May 2017 and the winner becomes French President. Will be interesting as you said.

It will also be interesting to see what happens in the UK on the 8th June 2017.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> I wrote it few posts above...  , alas do you ever read it?
> Nah...





cheekyscrip said:


> I wrote it few posts above...  , alas do you ever read it?
> Nah...


 did a leopard ever change its spots


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> did a leopard ever change its spots


Attention span of a gold fish  ....
Ever thought about being MP?

You will only remember about three manifesto promises at a time .. Great bonus ... Most big parties will welcome you with open arms....
There are vacancies....


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Attention span of a gold fish  ....
> Ever thought about being MP?
> 
> You will only remember about three manifesto promises at a time .. Great bonus ... Most big parties will welcome you with open arms....
> There are vacancies....


Oh, can you write me a reference please


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Oh, can you write me a reference please


I will...whom for ? Labour,LibDem, Tory? UKiP? BNP?


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> I will...whom for ? Labour,LibDem, Tory? UKiP? BNP?


You missed off my favorites
The raving loony party
And
The animal welfare party


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> You missed off my favorites
> The raving loony party
> And
> The animal welfare party


You forgot the independent PF party


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> You missed off my favorites
> The raving loony party
> And
> The animal welfare party


Roll them both in one and we will have Pet Forum Dog Chat Party!!!

(Pet Forum Cat Chat will be the Opposition ).


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Roll them both in one and we will have Pet Forum Dog Chat Party!!!


The loony animal forum members party


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Roll them both in one and we will have Pet Forum Dog Chat Party!!!
> 
> (Pet Forum Cat Chat will be the Opposition ).


You'll be member of both though


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> The loony animal forum members party


Led by DT... can I reserve the back bench and represent Barbary Apes from The Rock?


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Led by DT... can I reserve the back bench and represent Barbary Apes from The Rock?


Ill just look after the party fund! Opps I mean budget!


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Ill just look after the party fund! Opps I mean budget!


Party fund??? Meaning the mojitos, G&Ts and Chippendales?

You have lots of experience with pf parties...
:;-)


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Party fund??? Meaning the mojitos, G&Ts and Chippendales?
> 
> You have lots of experience with pf parties...
> :;-)


You been speaking to that noush
Now I'm getting scared, really scared.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> You been speaking to that noush
> Now I'm getting scared, really scared.


As if you didn't know how to handle mojito and a Chippendale simultaneously?
 ...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Right everyone I want to let you know where I am with Brexit. I still want Brexit to happen but not May's version of Brexit as it could seriously damage the UK's economy and trade.

Why the change in stance, well because we are allowed to change our minds and I have listened to what people are saying. I believe the UK should retain the single market access at least and offer security for the EU citizens currently living in the UK. If you think the UK's NHS is in a mess at the moment well imagine May's hard Brexit is in force and all the nurses from the EU leave the UK, where would that leave the NHS? Also if the UK leaves with no trade deal where does that leave the UK? There has to be some form of compromise here.

Yes I am backing a bit of a softer Brexit.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Right everyone I want to let you know where I am with Brexit. I still want Brexit to happen but not May's version of Brexit as it could seriously damage the UK's economy and trade.
> 
> Why the change in stance, well because we are allowed to change our minds and I have listened to what people are saying. I believe the UK should retain the single market access at least and offer security for the EU citizens currently living in the UK. If you think the UK's NHS is in a mess at the moment well imagine May's hard Brexit is in force and all the nurses from the EU leave the UK, where would that leave the NHS? Also if the UK leaves with no trade deal where does that leave the UK? There has to be some form of compromise here.
> 
> Yes I am backing a bit of a softer Brexit.


My Dad used to say 'only a small mind can't change', SWC. Or summat like that


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Right everyone I want to let you know where I am with Brexit. I still want Brexit to happen but not May's version of Brexit


If you go back through this thread stockwellcat you'll find that is what you originally were saying.


----------



## Calvine

I am no longer posting on this thread but I have to say this amused me no end.


----------



## KittenKong

On ITV this evening, "Tonight" about Brits living abroad facing an uncertain future.

Will be on the ITV player if anyone wants to watch it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> On ITV this evening, "Tonight" about Brits living abroad facing an uncertain future.
> 
> Will be on the ITV player if anyone wants to watch it.
> 
> View attachment 308535


Recorded it to watch late.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just watched it, not sure what to make of it, I didn't know we were paying for care for the elderly as well health care, but if you live aboard it's a risk you take. I do understand the worry about pensions that shouldn't change thay should still get the same rises as the rest of us, for what it is worth.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rope-uk?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter







































Alerted by this via the Sabre Roads site.

More pressure on the NHS if elderly ex-pats are forced to return to the UK.


----------



## KittenKong

Dear me. You'd think the Express would have more important things to report on.

As far as I'm aware it's not an offence (yet) to wave the EU flag in the UK if one wishes to....


----------



## noushka05

I wont spoil your thread @MilleD 
*
HaveIGotNewsForYou*‏Verified [email protected]*haveigotnews* Apr 28

In cinemas today.


----------



## MilleD

Thanks Noush


----------



## cheekyscrip

We will have choice: Collapsed economy, all jobless, had to leave Gibraltar and join refugees, penniless.
Or accept that the Spanish government and be ruined anyway.
Thank you Brexit and all who voted for it.
Whether you want it or not crash Brexit is on.
Who needs experts?
Who needs Lords?
Who needs Parliament?
Well done.


----------



## cheekyscrip

"Project Fear"?
So we had country with growing economy, lowest level.of unemployment growing wages, tiny inflation and UKiP lying that underfunded NHS and education are fault of immigrants.
Obviously people who came to work in UK should not be using health care, schools or housing.
Obviously UK needs to import professional people instead of educating their own and import unskilled laboured, because it is cheaper than paying enough for their own.
Then all those EU nationals are to blame.
Blamed even for all illegal and non EU immigrants.
Therefore Brexit is the remedy.
To hell with economy if we can purge our lovely country?

Election changes nothing.
Brexit changes everything. Forever, not just for few years.

Sadly, those who will benefit from it do not care what will happen really to UK or to " the people", and our Labour is more busy trying to please Brexit supporters than actually try to make them see the reality how it would affect them.

Rant over.


----------



## noushka05

Have to share this series of tweets by Jeremy Cliffe who is the Berlin Bureau Chief at The Economist.

Both brexiteers & remainers really ought to read them - be prepared to be horrified at the sheer incompetence of May & her government

Today's FAZ report on May's disastrous dinner with Juncker - briefed by senior Commission sources - is absolutely damning.

1) May had said she wanted to talk not just Brexit but also world problems; but in practice it fell to Juncker to propose one to discuss.

2) May has made clear to the Commission that she fully expects to be reelected as PM.

3) It is thought [in the Commission] that May wants to frustrate the daily business of the EU27, to improve her own negotiating position.

4) May seemed pissed off at Davis for regaling her dinner guests of his ECJ case against her data retention measures - three times.

5) EU side were astonished at May's suggestion that EU/UK expats issue could be sorted at EU Council meeting at the end of June.

6) Juncker objected to this timetable as way too optimistic given complexities, eg on rights to health care.

7) Juncker pulled two piles of paper from his bag: Croatia's EU entry deal, Canada's free trade deal. His point: Brexit will be v v complex

8) May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process

9) Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.

10) EU side felt May was seeing whole thing through rose-tinted-glasses. "Let us make Brexit a success" she told them.

11) Juncker countered that Britain will now be a third state, not even (like Turkey) in the customs union: "Brexit cannot be a success

12) May seemed surprised by this and seemed to the EU side not to have been fully briefed.

13) She cited her own JHA opt-out negotiations as home sec as a model: a mutually useful agreement meaning lots on paper, little in reality

14) May's reference to the JHA (justice and home affairs) opt-outs set off alarm signals for the EU side. This was what they had feared.

15) ie as home sec May opted out of EU measures (playing to UK audience) then opted back in, and wrongly thinks she can do same with Brexit

16) "The more I hear, the more sceptical I become" said Juncker (this was only half way through the dinner)

17) May then insisted to Juncker et al that UK owes EU no money because there is nothing to that effect in the treaties

18) Her guests then informed her that the EU is not a golf club

19) Davis then objected that EU could not force a post-Brexit, post-ECJ UK to pay the bill. OK, said Juncker, then no trade deal.

20) ...leaving EU27 with UK's unpaid bills will involve national parliaments in process (a point that Berlin had made *repeatedly* before).

21) "I leave Downing St ten times as sceptical as I was before" Juncker told May as he left

22) Next morning at c7am Juncker called Merkel on her mobile, said May living in another galaxy & totally deluding herself

23) Merkel quickly reworked her speech to Bundestag to include her now-famous "some in Britain still have illusions" comment.

24) FAZ concludes: May in election mode & playing to crowd, but what use is a big majority won by nurturing delusions of Brexit hardliners?

25) Juncker's team now think it more likely than not that Brexit talks will collapse & hope Brits wake up to harsh realities in time.

26) What to make of it all? Obviously this leak is a highly tactical move by Commission. But contents deeply worrying for UK nonetheless

27) The report points to major communications/briefing problems. Important messages from Berlin & Brussels seem not to be getting through.

28) Presumably as a result, May seems to be labouring under some really rather fundamental misconceptions about Brexit & the EU27.

29) Also clear that (as some of us have been warning for a while...) No 10 should expect every detail of the Brexit talks to leak


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Have to share this series of tweets by Jeremy Cliffe who is the Berlin Bureau Chief at The Economist.
> 
> Both brexiteers & remainers really ought to read them - be prepared to be horrified at the sheer incompetence of May & her government
> 
> Today's FAZ report on May's disastrous dinner with Juncker - briefed by senior Commission sources - is absolutely damning.
> 
> 1) May had said she wanted to talk not just Brexit but also world problems; but in practice it fell to Juncker to propose one to discuss.
> 
> 2) May has made clear to the Commission that she fully expects to be reelected as PM.
> 
> 3) It is thought [in the Commission] that May wants to frustrate the daily business of the EU27, to improve her own negotiating position.
> 
> 4) May seemed pissed off at Davis for regaling her dinner guests of his ECJ case against her data retention measures - three times.
> 
> 5) EU side were astonished at May's suggestion that EU/UK expats issue could be sorted at EU Council meeting at the end of June.
> 
> 6) Juncker objected to this timetable as way too optimistic given complexities, eg on rights to health care.
> 
> 7) Juncker pulled two piles of paper from his bag: Croatia's EU entry deal, Canada's free trade deal. His point: Brexit will be v v complex
> 
> 8) May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process
> 
> 9) Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.
> 
> 10) EU side felt May was seeing whole thing through rose-tinted-glasses. "Let us make Brexit a success" she told them.
> 
> 11) Juncker countered that Britain will now be a third state, not even (like Turkey) in the customs union: "Brexit cannot be a success
> 
> 12) May seemed surprised by this and seemed to the EU side not to have been fully briefed.
> 
> 13) She cited her own JHA opt-out negotiations as home sec as a model: a mutually useful agreement meaning lots on paper, little in reality
> 
> 14) May's reference to the JHA (justice and home affairs) opt-outs set off alarm signals for the EU side. This was what they had feared.
> 
> 15) ie as home sec May opted out of EU measures (playing to UK audience) then opted back in, and wrongly thinks she can do same with Brexit
> 
> 16) "The more I hear, the more sceptical I become" said Juncker (this was only half way through the dinner)
> 
> 17) May then insisted to Juncker et al that UK owes EU no money because there is nothing to that effect in the treaties
> 
> 18) Her guests then informed her that the EU is not a golf club
> 
> 19) Davis then objected that EU could not force a post-Brexit, post-ECJ UK to pay the bill. OK, said Juncker, then no trade deal.
> 
> 20) ...leaving EU27 with UK's unpaid bills will involve national parliaments in process (a point that Berlin had made *repeatedly* before).
> 
> 21) "I leave Downing St ten times as sceptical as I was before" Juncker told May as he left
> 
> 22) Next morning at c7am Juncker called Merkel on her mobile, said May living in another galaxy & totally deluding herself
> 
> 23) Merkel quickly reworked her speech to Bundestag to include her now-famous "some in Britain still have illusions" comment.
> 
> 24) FAZ concludes: May in election mode & playing to crowd, but what use is a big majority won by nurturing delusions of Brexit hardliners?
> 
> 25) Juncker's team now think it more likely than not that Brexit talks will collapse & hope Brits wake up to harsh realities in time.
> 
> 26) What to make of it all? Obviously this leak is a highly tactical move by Commission. But contents deeply worrying for UK nonetheless
> 
> 27) The report points to major communications/briefing problems. Important messages from Berlin & Brussels seem not to be getting through.
> 
> 28) Presumably as a result, May seems to be labouring under some really rather fundamental misconceptions about Brexit & the EU27.
> 
> 29) Also clear that (as some of us have been warning for a while...) No 10 should expect every detail of the Brexit talks to leak


No deal is preferable to a bad deal and sounds like a likely outcome.


----------



## rona

Written by a guy who worked for the Party of European Socialists, Chuka Umunna a Labour politician and on the “David Miliband for Leader” campaign....................

Really unbiased. Oh and he's only a journalist


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Have to share this series of tweets by Jeremy Cliffe who is the Berlin Bureau Chief at The Economist.
> 
> Both brexiteers & remainers really ought to read them - be prepared to be horrified at the sheer incompetence of May & her government
> 
> Today's FAZ report on May's disastrous dinner with Juncker - briefed by senior Commission sources - is absolutely damning.
> 
> 1) May had said she wanted to talk not just Brexit but also world problems; but in practice it fell to Juncker to propose one to discuss.
> 
> 2) May has made clear to the Commission that she fully expects to be reelected as PM.
> 
> 3) It is thought [in the Commission] that May wants to frustrate the daily business of the EU27, to improve her own negotiating position.
> 
> 4) May seemed pissed off at Davis for regaling her dinner guests of his ECJ case against her data retention measures - three times.
> 
> 5) EU side were astonished at May's suggestion that EU/UK expats issue could be sorted at EU Council meeting at the end of June.
> 
> 6) Juncker objected to this timetable as way too optimistic given complexities, eg on rights to health care.
> 
> 7) Juncker pulled two piles of paper from his bag: Croatia's EU entry deal, Canada's free trade deal. His point: Brexit will be v v complex
> 
> 8) May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process
> 
> 9) Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.
> 
> 10) EU side felt May was seeing whole thing through rose-tinted-glasses. "Let us make Brexit a success" she told them.
> 
> 11) Juncker countered that Britain will now be a third state, not even (like Turkey) in the customs union: "Brexit cannot be a success
> 
> 12) May seemed surprised by this and seemed to the EU side not to have been fully briefed.
> 
> 13) She cited her own JHA opt-out negotiations as home sec as a model: a mutually useful agreement meaning lots on paper, little in reality
> 
> 14) May's reference to the JHA (justice and home affairs) opt-outs set off alarm signals for the EU side. This was what they had feared.
> 
> 15) ie as home sec May opted out of EU measures (playing to UK audience) then opted back in, and wrongly thinks she can do same with Brexit
> 
> 16) "The more I hear, the more sceptical I become" said Juncker (this was only half way through the dinner)
> 
> 17) May then insisted to Juncker et al that UK owes EU no money because there is nothing to that effect in the treaties
> 
> 18) Her guests then informed her that the EU is not a golf club
> 
> 19) Davis then objected that EU could not force a post-Brexit, post-ECJ UK to pay the bill. OK, said Juncker, then no trade deal.
> 
> 20) ...leaving EU27 with UK's unpaid bills will involve national parliaments in process (a point that Berlin had made *repeatedly* before).
> 
> 21) "I leave Downing St ten times as sceptical as I was before" Juncker told May as he left
> 
> 22) Next morning at c7am Juncker called Merkel on her mobile, said May living in another galaxy & totally deluding herself
> 
> 23) Merkel quickly reworked her speech to Bundestag to include her now-famous "some in Britain still have illusions" comment.
> 
> 24) FAZ concludes: May in election mode & playing to crowd, but what use is a big majority won by nurturing delusions of Brexit hardliners?
> 
> 25) Juncker's team now think it more likely than not that Brexit talks will collapse & hope Brits wake up to harsh realities in time.
> 
> 26) What to make of it all? Obviously this leak is a highly tactical move by Commission. But contents deeply worrying for UK nonetheless
> 
> 27) The report points to major communications/briefing problems. Important messages from Berlin & Brussels seem not to be getting through.
> 
> 28) Presumably as a result, May seems to be labouring under some really rather fundamental misconceptions about Brexit & the EU27.
> 
> 29) Also clear that (as some of us have been warning for a while...) No 10 should expect every detail of the Brexit talks to leak


Then muzzling parliament and media had little point?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rope-uk?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
> 
> View attachment 308700
> 
> View attachment 308702
> View attachment 308703
> View attachment 308704
> View attachment 308705
> 
> 
> Alerted by this via the Sabre Roads site.
> 
> More pressure on the NHS if elderly ex-pats are forced to return to the UK.


I've just got some quotes for insurance a weeks holiday in France for a person of 67 with type one diabetes and high blood pressure and got quotes from £6.47, the most expensive being £48. That's for a million cover. For 15 million cover it rose to £19.98 to £49


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Written by a guy who worked for the Party of European Socialists, Chuka Umunna a Labour politician and on the "David Miliband for Leader" campaign....................
> 
> Really unbiased. Oh and he's only a journalist


I like David Miliband?

No deal will be just as fantastic as bad deal...
Though turning UK into giant tax haven/ Little America will benefit some?
Who invested in private health care for example?


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> No deal is preferable to a bad deal and sounds like a likely outcome.














rona said:


> Written by a guy who worked for the Party of European Socialists, Chuka Umunna a Labour politician and on the "David Miliband for Leader" campaign....................
> 
> Really unbiased. Oh and he's only a journalist


Translated from the FAZ report of the disastrous brexit dinner. Apparently it makes great reading. Perhaps Goblin will translate it all for you.

Juncker's visit to planet May: "Brexit cannot be a success".

.

Of course we all know the government will push the blame for their brexit shambles on to Brussels when we all go over that cliff .


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Who invested in private health care?


Is the answer, those who couldn't really give a t055 about those less fortunate than they are?:Watching


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Then muzzling parliament and media had little point?


The EU are going to leak everything, aren't they. They want us all to be aware just how incompetent this bunch of clowns are


----------



## Dr Pepper

rona said:


> I've just got some quotes for insurance a weeks holiday in France for a person of 67 with type one diabetes and high blood pressure and got quotes from £6.47, the most expensive being £48. That's for a million cover. For 15 million cover it rose to £19.98 to £49


To be fair it may go up slightly when we no longer have our EU health card thingies. But only by a few quid and it'll still be cheaper than say if you go to the USA, and a couple of years ago for two adults it was less than £50 for seven nights in Vegas, so £25 for your holiday insurance. Hardly early shattering and certainly not a reason to have voted remain.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> The EU are going to leak everything, aren't they. They want us all to be aware just how incompetent this bunch of clowns are


Brussels sprouted a leak I guess.


----------



## Guest

The latest news in Helsingin Sanomat about Brexit and EU based on the EU meeting on Saturday. 
Before UK can start talking about commercial interests, we have to agree on the terms of the negotiations (the opposite what May wanted, she wanted to talk about commercial interests first. So that will not happen) .

These interests are above all what happens to EU citizens in UK, will they get the same rights as now or. That means all EU citizens, not something UK can pick and choose from. Again, not what May wanted. 
Nothern Ireland -looks like they could join Ireland and be part of EU if they wanted to. What about Scotland and Gibraltar? 
The amount UK pays has to be agreed on 
Freedom of movement - if UK will close it´s borders that will close borders from commerce as well (not what May wanted)
And only once EU has agreed that enough progress has been made in UK, we start negotiating about business deals. Naturally Britain does´t have to have any deals by 2019, UK will not pay anything, will provide no security for EU citizens etc. But then UK will have no deals with EU. Good luck with that. Tough, but then you choose your governments. I guess you need to ask now how much you are willing to sacrifice for the right to close your borders from EU citizens, and decide who will look after the interests of British people.

The main message is for Brits is to wake up - EU will not hand over the rights you want without you paying for them, and paying more for them as before, as you chose to leave. May´s messages are only wishful thinking biding her time before the elections. No wonder she was panicking - she knows once the Brexit reality bites, Brits will wake up.The old saying "you can lie to some people all the time, to all some time, but not all the time to all the people" will come true.

Murdoc must be laughing his head off by now - the main source of information for Trump and trumpeteers is Fox news and for brexiteers Murdoch is becoming one. BBC has faced lot of cuts and, apparently should not interfere with politics... Now I wonder who will benefit of weaker EU? And weak US? Russia, Asia, Australia.. And who doesn´t care at all about UK? See this link.

http://www.mediareform.org.uk/wp-co...o_owns_the_UK_media-report_plus_appendix1.pdf


----------



## kimthecat

Satori said:


> Brussels sprouted a leak I guess.


----------



## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> Have to share this series of tweets by Jeremy Cliffe who is the Berlin Bureau Chief at The Economist.


Another version referencing Jeremy Cliffe's information. https://www.forbes.com/sites/france...completely-deluded-about-brexit/#5b2077f64f04 Find it interesting that May want negotiations to be kept secret. Why would that be I wonder. Guess it's harder to spin the result if people know she's been lying about everything from the start. Article also points out the fact that the EU is giving information to EU sources rather than the UK press as it has before. This in itself is worrying, we get no information from May and potentially have to get any real factual information from EU sources.


----------



## rona

What's FAZ but a paper that's printing what their readers want to read


----------



## rona

Just seen Jeremy Cliffe with my own eyes saying the report should be taken with a pinch of salt and was very one sided .


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> No deal is preferable to a bad deal and sounds like a likely outcome.


Sounds like one of May's soundbites, meaningless.

So tell us.. what's so great about not getting a deal. What does it mean in reality for the average person, for businesses dealing with the EU and other countries?


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Sounds like one of May's soundbites, meaningless.
> 
> So tell us.. what's so great about not getting a deal. What does it mean in reality for the average person


I don't know any average people, much less care.


----------



## Odin_cat

Satori said:


> No deal is preferable to a bad deal and sounds like a likely outcome.


For whom is it preferable?
A no deal leaves the lives of around 4 million people on a cliff edge!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> I don't know any average people, much less care.


@Zaros ....here is your answer...
They can eat cakes....
That mentality....nihil novi sub sol...
But it all ended with Bastille...

If @stockwellcat &Co really wanted to give money to @Satori & Co why, but why did they have to hand in ours too?

Really!!!!
And destroy Gibraltar on the way...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> If @stockwellcat &Co really wanted to give money to @Satori & Co


You obviously missed me @cheekyscrip to mention me on in your post  I am trying to ignore this thread but keep getting mentioned in it :Bored :Facepalm

Nah @Satori & co don't need my money. My money is staying in my pocket


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> @Zaros ....here is your answer.....nihil novi sub sol....


Today was yesterday's tomorrow and is tomorrow's yesterday.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> Today was yesterday's tomorrow and is tomorrow's yesterday.


And it's all tomorrow's fish & chip paper.


----------



## Satori

Odin_cat said:


> For whom is it preferable?


Me. I can't possibly speculate about others.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> @Zaros ....here is your answer...
> They can eat cakes....
> That mentality....nihil novi sub sol...
> But it all ended with Bastille...
> 
> If @stockwellcat &Co really wanted to give money to @Satori & Co why, but why did they have to hand in ours too?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> View attachment 309166


Nice to agree ... Again.
Just add that some jump dragging the others...
@stockwellcat , of course I do, how are you bearing up, duck?

Rest assured, with May we will have the very best NO DEAL she can get and offend all those nasty 27 who might complained about their nationals' rights and other nonsense.

But we will show them. We will build a wall.


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> Another version referencing Jeremy Cliffe's information. https://www.forbes.com/sites/france...completely-deluded-about-brexit/#5b2077f64f04 Find it interesting that May want negotiations to be kept secret. Why would that be I wonder. Guess it's harder to spin the result if people know she's been lying about everything from the start. Article also points out the fact that the EU is giving information to EU sources rather than the UK press as it has before. This in itself is worrying, we get no information from May and potentially have to get any real factual information from EU sources.


That certainly would have made it a lot easier than c&p-ing all those tweets lol

She thinks she can fool people into believing she has something to negotiate with. When anyone with half a brain can see Brussels hold all the cards.

Have to laugh at this tweet made many months ago, sums things up perfectly.


EU lays down a royal flush. 
UK looks at own cards: Mr Bun the Baker, Pikachu, a Shadowmage, a fireball spell, and the Fool


----------



## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> EU lays down a royal flush.
> UK looks at own cards: Mr Bun the Baker, Pikachu, a Shadowmage, a fireball spell, and the Fool


Always going to be the case. Always going to be the case where it was down to the nasty EU for not provided everything the UK asks for. Like membership without any restrictions or costs.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

Total demolition of the tories negotiating position. How can ordinary brexiteers fail to see just how screwed we are if we carry on with this madness? How can so many not see the real reasons May called for this snap election?


----------



## noushka05

Didn't think it was possible to be even more screwed - but it looks like we are

Oh well done May!, you incompetent idiot!!

*Tim Walker*‏Verified [email protected]*ThatTimWalker* 8h8 hours ago

Can any of us honestly afford much more of Mrs May's singular negotiating skills?


----------



## Goblin

Ah but legally we don't have to pay you know. It's all the EU's fault. We have strong and steady leadership under May. Her record says so, somewhere.. Sorry cannot find it.


----------



## Jesthar

Goblin said:


> Ah but legally we don't have to pay you know. It's all the EU's fault. We have strong and steady leadership under May. *Her record says so, somewhere*.. Sorry cannot find it.


Would that be the stuck record or the broken record


----------



## Happy Paws2

Goblin said:


> Ah but legally we don't have to pay you know. It's all the EU's fault. *We have strong and steady leadership under May. Her record says so, somewhere.. *Sorry cannot find it.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious I haven't had such a good laugh for ages :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 309338


Very clever. :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

EU: Give us 100 billion or else.
May: Not bloody likely. My way or the high way
Corbyn: Of course ! Now would you like a cup of tea, I'll be Mother. 

:Arghh


----------



## Happy Paws2

We'll still have to pay what we owe like it or not.

Brexit is going to cost us a lot more than some people thought, vote to leave and that would be that, but not that simple is it..


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> EU: Give us 100 billion or else.
> May: Not bloody likely. My way or the high way
> Corbyn: Of course ! Now would you like a cup of tea, I'll be Mother.
> 
> :Arghh


May is sabotaging any hope of getting a good deal.


----------



## noushka05

*Brexit about to trigger sky-high costs for British food industry
*

Food producers and consumers about to get hit by Brexit as both prices and costs rise
http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-a...ut-to-trigger-sky-high-costs-for-british-food

*
UK food sector faces enormous challenges post-Brexit, say peers *

*Up to 97% of the country's food and drink exports will be at risk from Brexit with no agreed trade deals, says report*

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ces-enormous-challenges-post-brexit-say-peers


----------



## noushka05

Very interesting article in the NYTs on the influence of our tabloid press.

To Understand 'Brexit,' Look to Britain's Tabloids - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/02/world/europe/london-tabloids-brexit.html?_r=2

.,


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Very interesting article in the NYTs on the influence of our tabloid press.
> 
> To Understand 'Brexit,' Look to Britain's Tabloids - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/02/world/europe/london-tabloids-brexit.html?_r=2
> 
> .,


 A fine job done by them all. ''Tell us the tooth"; brilliant.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> Today was yesterday's tomorrow and is tomorrow's yesterday.


 I thought today was Thursday .

<Wanders off more confused than ever >


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> No deal is preferable to a bad deal and sounds like a likely outcome.


Can you describe what you mean by 'a bad deal'?


----------



## noushka05

Poundland:Hilarious


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> *Brexit about to trigger sky-high costs for British food industry. *Food producers and consumers about to get hit by Brexit as both prices and costs rise
> http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-a...ut-to-trigger-sky-high-costs-for-british-food
> 
> *UK food sector faces enormous challenges post-Brexit, say peers. Up to 97% of the country's food and drink exports will be at risk from Brexit with no agreed trade deals, says report*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ces-enormous-challenges-post-brexit-say-peers
> 
> View attachment 309426


Didn´t some wish for the "good old days" to come back. Who knows, soon they might just get what they wanted. The days might be back with food rations and eating only what can be grown in Britain , with the exception of the few rich, of course, who can always afford everything. Food rations might sound really old, but aren´t meal tickets etc just that?
Victorian times might be back, but they might not be so good as some think they are.

Wake up, don´t believe in the bull you are getting, don´t make UK like US, look at their health care alone. You have done so much better before making things better, you have worked hard to get a better system. You deserve better than this! Let May to go to the la-land for the rich and famous and real people come back.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> Didn´t some wish for the "good old days" to come back. Who knows, soon they might just get what they wanted. The days might be back with food rations and eating only what can be grown in Britain , with the exception of the few rich, of course, who can always afford everything. Food rations might sound really old, but aren´t meal tickets etc just that?
> Victorian times might be back, but they might not be so good as some think they are.
> 
> Wake up, don´t believe in the bull you are getting, don´t make UK like US, look at their health care alone. You have done so much better before making things better, you have worked hard to get a better system. You deserve better than this! Let May to go to the la-land for the rich and famous and real people come back.


Oh yeah, some are positively relishing the thought of 'digging for victory' again All the gains are forebears fought so hard for - thrown away. Its madness.

The tories share the same ideology as Trump & his Republicans & like American citizens we'll be at the mercy of a bunch of morally bankrupt carpetbaggers who will quite literally bleed this country dry with their insatiable greed.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> Oh yeah, some are positively relishing the thought of 'digging for victory' again All the gains are forebears fought so hard for - thrown away. Its madness.
> 
> The tories share the same ideology as Trump & his Republicans & like American citizens we'll be at the mercy of a bunch of morally bankrupt carpetbaggers who will quite literally bleed this country dry with their insatiable greed.


That is so true. It´s sad really how it is always the rich people, who are most selfish when push comes to shove. There is no end to greed, and no one is a poor as a rich man.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> That is so true. It´s sad really how it is always the rich people, who are most selfish when push comes to shove. There is no end to greed, and no one is a poor as a rich man.


And that is so true too. That they would destroy the our living planet for material wealth proves we are ruled by psychopaths.

Have you ever seen this by Tory Andrew Lilico Mrs Zee? I have posted it before, but it shows the mentality of these right wingers.

A horrific vision & not one I want to around to see  http://www.conservativehome.com/pla...the-ethics-of-adapting-to-climate-change.html

.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> No deal is preferable to a bad deal and sounds like a likely outcome.





Arnie83 said:


> Can you describe what you mean by 'a bad deal'?


Okay, @Satori if you're having trouble describing a 'bad deal' could you say what you mean by 'no deal'?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Okay, @Satori if you're having trouble describing a 'bad deal' could you say what you mean by 'no deal'?


'No' as in 'the absence of'. So,..... the absence of a deal. The situation that pertains if a deal is not in existence. I really don't know how to put it any more simply, sorry. Perhaps ask him....


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> 'No' as in 'the absence of'. So,..... the absence of a deal. The situation that pertains if a deal is not in existence. I really don't know how to put it any more simply, sorry. Perhaps ask him....


So what, for example, happens to the border in Ireland on day 1 of the new post-Brexit world if there is no deal in existence? Do UK citizens living in Spain immediately lose their rights?

"No deal is better than a bad deal" is a phrase designed for those who don't think about these things in any sort of depth.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> So what, for example, happens to the border in Ireland on day 1 of the new post-Brexit world if there is no deal in existence? Do UK citizens living in Spain immediately lose their rights?


If I can get my crystal ball working I'll let you know immediately.


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> If I can get my crystal ball working I'll let you know immediately.


Nice evasion instead of answering but as someone who is quite happy for "no deal" you should be able to quantify what no deal means.

Let's look at something simple.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-over-a-hard-border-with-ireland-after-brexit

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...ard-border-will-be-bad-for-business-1.2837004


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> If I can get my crystal ball working I'll let you know immediately.


No need for a crystal ball.

What there would be a need for, however, if there is no deal on single market access, customs union membership etc. is a deal on the subjects like those I mentioned. No deal at all - as you defined it - would leave complete and utter chaos. 'No deal' would be a disaster.

In light of that self-evident conclusion, it would be a challenge to think of a 'bad deal' which is actually worse.

What the soundbite Tories, and, clearly, some of their more fervent supporters, are doing, is considering the 'deal' to include nothing more then single market, customs union, a broad ECJ generalisation, and the movement of migrants. Everything else is ignored as if it was possible to do so. It's merely an extension of the simplistic referendum where people chose 'leave' while having no more than their own imagined definition of what that might mean.

Even some posters on here consider it to mean cutting all ties with EU institutions, without considering that the UK is currently a member of 35 EU agencies covering stuff from air safety to animal welfare to human medicine. Did they want to leave all of those? Do they think we can just opt back in if we feel like it? Did they even know about them?

Simplistic answers do not provide solutions to very complex questions.

'No deal is better than a bad deal' is intelligence-insulting nonsense, just as was 'Brexit means Brexit'.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Colliebarmy

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 310012
> View attachment 310013


Show aint over till the fat lady sings

Wait for the rush to the exit when the remaining members have to cover our EU subs...


----------



## KittenKong

Colliebarmy said:


> Show aint over till the fat lady sings
> 
> Wait for the rush to the exit when the remaining members have to cover our EU subs...


Ahem, were you not one of the first to argue us "remoaners" should shut up and get over it or words to that effect???


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> Show aint over till the fat lady sings
> 
> Wait for the rush to the exit when the remaining members have to cover our EU subs...


Alternatively, wait 'til the amount we pay ends up greater than it is now after we have to buy our way back into the single market!


----------



## MollySmith

Arnie83 said:


> No need for a crystal ball.
> 
> What there would be a need for, however, if there is no deal on single market access, customs union membership etc. is a deal on the subjects like those I mentioned. No deal at all - as you defined it - would leave complete and utter chaos. 'No deal' would be a disaster.
> 
> In light of that self-evident conclusion, it would be a challenge to think of a 'bad deal' which is actually worse.
> 
> What the soundbite Tories, and, clearly, some of their more fervent supporters, are doing, is considering the 'deal' to include nothing more then single market, customs union, a broad ECJ generalisation, and the movement of migrants. Everything else is ignored as if it was possible to do so. It's merely an extension of the simplistic referendum where people chose 'leave' while having no more than their own imagined definition of what that might mean.
> 
> *Even some posters on here consider it to mean cutting all ties with EU institutions, without considering that the UK is currently a member of 35 EU agencies covering stuff from air safety to animal welfare to human medicine. Did they want to leave all of those? Do they think we can just opt back in if we feel like it? Did they even know about them?*
> 
> Simplistic answers do not provide solutions to very complex questions.
> 
> 'No deal is better than a bad deal' is intelligence-insulting nonsense, just as was 'Brexit means Brexit'.


Like this...

Vice-Chancellor Professor Sir Leszek Borysiewicz
_ "It has been almost five months since we woke up to the news that a majority of the British electorate had voted in favour of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. Although we are still not entirely sure what "Brexit means Brexit" actually means, we are beginning to get a clearer sense of the impact this event is likely to have on the University when it happens.

"There is a much at stake. Cambridge has been successful at attracting funding from the EU through competitive grants. *As much as 17 per cent of the University's research income currently comes from the EU. This funding has allowed our researchers to work on subjects ranging from machine learning to the prevention of pandemics.*

"We have welcomed the government's statement that European funding awarded to projects before Brexit will be underwritten by the Treasury - even when such projects extend beyond the UK's departure from the EU.

"In the meantime, University researchers have continued to apply for - and win - large European grants. Cambridge applications for major European awards are being made in record numbers. European funding will underpin a major Cambridge-led trial of innovative ways of managing diabetes in children. The EU has confirmed that Cambridge will again be coordinating joint research activity carried out by a consortium of astronomy institutes around Europe.

"Our excellence in research remains undiminished. *More worrying than the loss of research revenue, however, is the damage to the networks of collaboration on which the advancement of world-class science depends today. Over 60 per cent of the UK's internationally co-authored papers involve partners in the EU.*
_
*Global community*
_
"I have repeatedly spoken out against policies that will hinder the mobility of UK and EU citizens. The University depends on the talent of students and staff from across the world. Almost a quarter (23 per cent) of the university's academic staff (including 27 per cent of our postdoctoral researchers) are non-UK EU nationals.

"One in ten of our undergraduate students, and 17 per cent of our postgraduates, are from EU countries other than the UK. The government's recent announcement that EU nationals applying for university places in the 2017-18 academic year will be eligible for student funding support for the entirety of their course offers some much needed reassurance. We continue to take steps to ensure that Cambridge is not only an attractive destination for people wishing to study and work, but also that it remains an open and welcoming environment for all. Our commitment to Europe runs deeper than our access to research funding, or even the fundamental issue of student and staff mobility. It is a commitment to a shared cultural and intellectual heritage, of which Cambridge is a pillar. On this issue, the University has a duty of leadership that it will not forsake.

"Even as the UK prepares to leave the EU, Cambridge cannot afford to cut itself off from the global community of scholars of which we are an inextricable part. As members of that global community comprising students, staff and alumni, it is our responsibility to ensure that Cambridge continues to thrive in spite of the UK's departure from the EU. We will seek the opportunities that arise from Brexit - not least the opportunity to emphasise our vocation as an outward looking institution, engaging more widely and more intensively with the world.

"One important lesson from the June referendum concerns the widespread sense that the goals of institutions like ours no longer reflect society's aspirations. This impression is wrong. When the communities we serve no longer believe that we have their interests at heart, it is our responsibility to engage and communicate to them the impact of the University's work.

"In the months ahead, we will continue to work with the UK government as it negotiates the terms of the UK's exit. We will also continue to make a contribution, by means of open and free discussions, to a wider understanding of how we reached this juncture, and what the future may hold.

"As we set down the uncharted path towards the UK's exit from the EU, we need to make a stronger case than ever for our role as an institution that contributes to the public good. In this endeavour, we rely more than ever on our global network of alumni - in the UK, in Europe, and around the world."_


----------



## MollySmith

And this. It smacks of dictatorial horror. I am not the British Citizen and my will silenced? That is very worrying language.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 309995


I don't know how worried I would be about this when looking at the member states.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> No need for a crystal ball.


Then why ask the question? You are getting as silly and as boring as your fellow troll friend. Cba reading any more of your inane drivel so don't even try. Bye.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Then why ask the question? You are getting as silly and as boring as your fellow troll friend. Cba reading any more of your inane drivel so don't even try. Bye.


When insults replace discussion it usually indicates that the point has been made.

Unfortunately some important people also appear to be adopting the ostrich or insult response to inconvenient facts about the negotiations. Let's hope they are only doing so for political purposes rather than actually believing their soundbites for the masses.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Europe Day to all our European forum members and to all in Europe, (including the 48% in the UK)


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 310096
> 
> 
> Happy Europe Day to all our European forum members and to all in Europe, (including the 48% in the UK)


The UK is still part of Europe and still will be once it leaves the EU.

So Happy Europe day from the 52% who voted to leave the EU. The 48% who voted remain really need to stop playing the victim card.

The UK is still in Europe and will remain in Europe on Brexit day plus one and onwards.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> The UK is still part of Europe and still will be once it leaves the EU.
> 
> So Happy Europe day from the 52% who voted to leave the EU. The 48% who voted remain really need to stop playing the victim card.
> 
> The UK is still in Europe and will remain in Europe on Brexit day plus one and onwards.


No need for your sarcasm. 
How is extending greetings to our European forum members playing the victim card?

I didn't think EU haters like yourself would appreciate greetings like this.

I dread to think what overseas forum members think of some of the posts here.

May's Britain has egg on its face now the EU is stronger and more stable than ever.

You are wrong. When the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal it'll become an insignificant little island isolated from the rest of Europe.

I am and always will be with Europe and the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No need for your sarcasm.


Well that's big of you as you can be pretty sarcastic yourself.


> I didn't think EU haters like yourself would appreciate greetings like this.


The EU is a totally different entity from Europe. You still don't get this after 12 months.


> You are wrong. When the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal it'll become an insignificant little island isolated from the rest of Europe.


Not really.
But I am not going to go around in circles with you. If you look you will find the answers are in this thread.

Why do you want the worst outcome for the UK the country you reside and live in? This is the way it comes across. Please answer this question yourself without newspaper propoganda.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well that's big of you as you can be pretty sarcastic yourself.
> The EU is a totally different entity from Europe. You still don't get this after 12 months.
> 
> Not really.
> But I am not going to go around in circles with you. If you look you will find the answers are in this thread.


"We're not leaving Europe, we're leaving the EU" is another of TM's soundbites you've clearly fallen for.

I would argue Norway and Switzerland are in Europe as they're united in a sense with the EU despite not being full members. Brexiteers don't want this compromise, they want to go it alone and revamp the British Empire.

To say complete isolation from the rest of Europe is remaining in Europe is arguing the Falkland Islands are South American. I'm sure you'll be the first to be offended if anyone suggested that to you.

As for your comment I can be sarcastic too I never said I couldn't be.

All this just for wishing our European members well.

Just goes to show how divided the UK is.

Edit- Just seen your edited post. I'll answer that for you:

I am European first and foremost. I was proud of my country of birth being an active member but I cannot condone Nationalism which is what the country of birth is or has become.

Before I get comments and name calling like, "Britain hater" I'll take you back to a recent post on the General Election thread when I said we would immediately cancel our planned trip to Paris if Le Pen won.

Yes, I expect the Brexit negotiations to be a total disaster if recent events are anything to go by.

Then, that's what people voted for......


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> Brexiteers don't want this compromise, they want to go it alone and revamp the British Empire.


God forbid!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> "We're not leaving Europe, we're leaving the EU" is another of TM's soundbites you've clearly fallen for.
> 
> I would argue Norway and Switzerland are in Europe as they're united in a sense with the EU despite not being full members. Brexiteers don't want this compromise, they want to go it alone and revamp the British Empire.
> 
> To say complete isolation from the rest of Europe is remaining in Europe is arguing the Falkland Islands are South American. I'm sure you'll be the first to be offended if anyone suggested that to you.
> 
> As for your comment I can be sarcastic too I never said I couldn't be.
> 
> All this just for wishing our European members well.
> 
> Just goes to show how divided the UK is.


I have said this before so will not be saying it again after this post...
Theresa May and the Government are aiming high for the negotiations to achieve an outcome, she may not get what she is aiming for but this is what you do in negotiations. You don't walk into a negotiation looking to get the worst outcome. So let's put it like this for example..
Theresa May wants the UK to cap immigration the EU say well because you want to do this it will end free movement. How about you allow highly skilled workers in on a working visa if you cannot fill the positions for a particular job in the UK? It's called compromise. The EU was planning to bring in a visa system anyway in the EU if I recall correctly for none Schegen zone members which would have included the UK, Ireland and Iceland (these three countries are in the EU but do not share an open boarder on the Europe continent).

Here's another thing to consider do you honestly think there will no compromise on what the UK has to offer on intelligence sharing? We have one of the best intelligence agencies in the world in the UK and the EU rely on us for this.

Here's another one the EU hold there currency in London, so Brexit day and Brexit day +1 they will need access to this so compromise will be needed there.

@KittenKong the press are not helping with sending out false or inaccurate media reports nor is Junker who has been told off by Merkel and Tusk as he is blatantly stirring things up.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I have said this before so will not be saying it again after this post...
> Theresa May and the Government are aiming high for the negotiations to achieve an outcome, she may not get what she is aiming for but this is what you do in negotiations. You don't walk into a negotiation looking to get the worst outcome. So let's put it like this for example..
> Theresa May wants the UK to cap immigration the EU say well because you want to do this it will end free movement. How about you allow highly skilled workers in on a working visa if you cannot fill the positions for a particular job in the UK? It's called compromise. The EU was planning to bring in a visa system anyway in the EU if I recall correctly for none Schegen zone members which would have included the UK, Ireland and Iceland (these three countries are in the EU but do not share an open boarder with Europe).
> 
> Here's another thing to consider do you honestly think there will no compromise on what the UK has to offer on intelligence sharing? We have one of the best intelligence agencies in the world on the UK and the EU rely on us for this.
> 
> Here's another one the EU hold there currency in London, so Brexit day and Brexit day +1 will need access to this so compromise will be needed there.
> 
> @KittenKong the press are not helping with sending out false or inaccurate media reports now is Junker who has been told off by Merkel and Tusk as he is blatantly stirring things up.


Aiming high by mouthing off on national television accusing the EU of influencing the election she said she would never call for months on end?

You are entitled to your opinion so let's leave it there.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Aiming high by mouthing off on national television accusing the EU of influencing the election she said she would never call for months on end?
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion so let's leave it there.


Well it seems like I am not allowed my opinion because you keep not reading and digesting what people are telling you.

I personally have not seen May mouthing off as you put it on TV, Junker yes. So sorry if I have missed this.

The No Deal stance is a psychological stance because of course everyone wants a deal or some kind of deal. It is an empty threat to get the EU leaders to negotiate with the UK a good deal.

Ok I understand that you don't want to read what I say which is fine.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well it seems like I am not allowed my opinion because you keep not reading and digesting what people are telling you.
> 
> I personally have not seen May mouthing off as you put it on TV, Junker yes. So sorry if I have missed this.
> 
> The No Deal stance is a physcological stance because of course everyone wants a deal. It is an empty threat to get the EU leaders to negotiate with the UK a good deal.
> 
> Ok I understand that you don't want to read what I say which is fine.


Can you not give it a rest? Of course you are entitled to your opinion, did I say you weren't?

All I did was to wish our European members a happy Europe day. I didn't expect this backlash.

How do you think "empty threats" will get the other 27 member states to sit up and listen?

Surely, if May wants sensible negotiations she should start by showing respect and not look at them as potential enemies.

"Let me fight for Britain", who the bl**dy hell does she think she is?!

EU negotiations will fail big time, not because of the EU but May's team's (we must call them that now, not the Conservatives), refusal to compromise and listen to others point of view.

Then she and her media can blame the EU for the talks collapsing. Jeremy Hunt has already said the NHS will suffer if they get a bad deal. Funny that. The NHS is disintegrating whether the UK remains in the EU or not, so Brexit is a terrible excuse for his failures.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Can you not give it a rest?


The same reason why you won't give it a rest and haven't done for 12 whole months.


> How do you think "empty threats" will get the other 27 member states to sit up and listen?


That's how negotiations work. Have you ever had to negotiate anything?


> Surely, if May wants sensible negotiations she should start by showing respect and not look at them as potential enemies.


 Well we don't seem to be getting any respect from Junker at all with his recent tyrade of insults.


> "Let me fight for Britain", who the bl**dy hell does she think she is.


probably because people see her as the strongest pm this country has had since Thatcher.


> EU negotiations will fail big time, not because of the EU but May's team's (we must call them that now, not the Conservatives), refusal to compromise and listen to others point of view.


 So you can see into the future now. Can I borrow your time machine or crystal ball or whatever you are using to do this.


> Then she and her media can blame the EU for the talks collapsing. Jeremy Hunt has already said the NHS will suffer if they get a bad deal. Funny that. The NHS is disintegrating whether the UK remains in the EU or not, so Brexit is a terrible excuse for his failures.


Sorry missed all this on TV if it is true as I only have your word for it.

Corbyn or Farron may win the GE so all this huffing and puffing on here maybe a waste of time.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> The same reason why you won't give it a rest and haven't done for 12 whole months.
> That's how negotiations work. Have you ever had to negotiate anything?
> Well we don't seem to be getting any respect from Junker at all with his recent tyrade of insults.
> The strongest prime minister this country has had since Thatcher.


Really? Let me take you back to a disagreement with my boss several years ago.

I had requested a couple of days off work giving months of notice for an annual event I go to.

When the requested days came up I noticed I was put down to work those days.

I didn't exactly get on with him but felt I had a right to confront him over this.

He point blank refused to back down. Did I throw a wobbler and threaten to punch him if I didn't get my way?

I was determined to have my say so, in view of his refusal to back down I thought what was the more important of the two days.

I said couldn't we come to a compromise, I work one of the days but have the other off?

Much to my surprise he agreed to this. So I worked one of the days he wanted me to work and not the other.

This earned me a great deal of respect from him as I showed to him.

What makes you think May is so strong and stable? Is it because she said so? She's withdrawing the country from the Single Market to achieve her ambitions to reduce immigration she's failed to do so over the past seven years. Margaret Thatcher would be turning in her grave. As much as I disliked Thatcher to say May is as "strong" as her is an insult to her memory.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Sorry missed all this on TV if it is true as I only have your word for it.
> .


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> "We're not leaving Europe, we're leaving the EU" is another of TM's soundbites you've clearly fallen for.
> 
> I would argue Norway and Switzerland are in Europe as they're united in a sense with the EU despite not being full members. Brexiteers don't want this compromise, they want to go it alone and revamp the British Empire.
> 
> To say complete isolation from the rest of Europe is remaining in Europe is arguing the Falkland Islands are South American. I'm sure you'll be the first to be offended if anyone suggested that to you.
> 
> As for your comment I can be sarcastic too I never said I couldn't be.
> 
> All this just for wishing our European members well.
> 
> Just goes to show how divided the UK is.
> 
> Edit- Just seen your edited post. I'll answer that for you:
> 
> I am European first and foremost. I was proud of my country of birth being an active member but I cannot condone Nationalism which is what the country of birth is or has become.
> 
> Before I get comments and name calling like, "Britain hater" I'll take you back to a recent post on the General Election thread when I said we would immediately cancel our planned trip to Paris if Le Pen won.
> 
> Yes, I expect the Brexit negotiations to be a total disaster if recent events are anything to go by.
> 
> Then, that's what people voted for......


We can't leave Europe, well not unless Mr Putin decides to make it so.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Aiming high by mouthing off on national television accusing the EU of influencing the election she said she would never call for months on end?.


From Murdoch's Sky News.


----------



## Honeys mum

Tory fraud investigation: CPS to announce before general election whether it will press charges | The Independent

That should be interesting .


----------



## Colliebarmy

Isnt it time to accept the referendum voted to leave, the Mp's voted to leave, the Lords voted to leave (eventually) and then the MP's voted again to leave

I think we are leaving

We have UKIP to thank and send condolences to Gina

She didnt see that coming


----------



## Colliebarmy

Honeys mum said:


> Tory fraud investigation: CPS to announce before general election whether it will press charges | The Independent
> 
> That should be interesting .


can they cover the proxy voting, postal voting and the communities where the males dictate who the women vote for?


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> Isnt it time to accept the referendum voted to leave, the Mp's voted to leave, the Lords voted to leave (eventually) and then the MP's voted again to leave
> 
> I think we are leaving


I don't think anyone is suggesting that we aren't. It's just the definition of what 'leave' means that remains as elusive as ever.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that we aren't. It's just the definition of what 'leave' means that remains as elusive as ever.


chuck them the keys to the members toilet, cancel the subs and get on the bus home?


----------



## Colliebarmy

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/778901/Gina-Miller-threatens-Government-back-court-over-Brexit


----------



## Goblin

Colliebarmy said:


> Isnt it time to accept the referendum voted to leave, the Mp's voted to leave, the Lords voted to leave (eventually) and then the MP's voted again to leave
> 
> I think we are leaving


The country's direction can change.. given the opportunity every 4 years at a general election after all. It's called democracy. Add to that the referendum was an opinion poll to influence policy, the lack of details...


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> chuck them the keys to the members toilet, cancel the subs and get on the bus home?


If only it were that simple.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Goblin said:


> The country's direction can change.. given the opportunity every 4 years at a general election after all. It's called democracy. Add to that the referendum was an opinion poll to influence policy, the lack of details...


The opinion poll said leave..

are you suggesting we rejoin the EU when Labour get back in?.... (ho ho)


----------



## Dr Pepper

Five years.

Or sometimes just two!


----------



## Goblin

Colliebarmy said:


> are you suggesting we rejoin the EU when Labour get back in?.... (ho ho)


Let's see, we as in the public are finally told what "no deal" means (you'll notice that those who say it refuse to actually quantify it and what it means). At that time don't you think people should be able to make a final decision of if this is the path for the UK?

If we do have a deal, given people can now have facts, don't you think people should still be able to make a final decision?

Didn't May actually state giving people a choice without the full details is unfair on them? That describes the referendum. Why not let people decide when they have those facts when it comes to a decision that is permanent and cannot be undone?

I know, I know.. we won the referendum.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Dr Pepper said:


> Five years.
> 
> Or sometimes just two!


ten years once between general elections...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> The country's direction can change.. given the opportunity every 4 years at a general election after all. It's called democracy. Add to that the referendum was an opinion poll to influence policy, the lack of details...


Can I correct you. We vote every 5 years in the UK at a GE hence the next GE after this one on the 8th June 2017 will be 2022  as the party in power is not obliged to call one until then under the fixed term Parliament act.


----------



## KittenKong

Colliebarmy said:


> The opinion poll said leave..
> 
> are you suggesting we rejoin the EU when Labour get back in?.... (ho ho)


Not going to happen....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39852719


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Can I correct you. We vote every 5 years in the UK at a GE hence the next GE after this one on the 8th June 2017 will be 2022  as the party in power is not obliged to call one until then under the fixed term Parliament act.


??? This government were elected in 2015, two years ago.

So much for the fixed term Parliament Act.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> ??? This government were elected in 2015, two years ago.
> 
> So much for the fixed term Parliament Act.....


You know what happened. Theresa May was getting in the ear from Sturgeon, Farron, SNP's, Corbyn, Gina Millar and the remain supporters about not having a mandate for Brexit. She informed parliament she wished to have a GE and they said yes. She will have a mandate this time which she will be elected on so nobody can say anything then. So shell have a mandate for Brexit "if" she gets in.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> You know what happened. Theresa May was getting in the ear from Sturgeon, Farron, SNP's and Corbyn about not having a mandate for Brexit. She informed parliament she wished to have a GE and they said yes. She will have a mandate this time which she will be elected on so nobody can say anything then. So shell have a mandate for Brexit "if" she gets in.


Oh dear, poor woman having opposition to her plans.

Here, in England? How dare they!

What are opposition benches for in Parliament?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear, poor woman having opposition to her plans.
> 
> What are opposition benches for in Parliament?


What opposition?

There certainly isn't one in Parliament with Corbyn and a weak one with Farron the only possible opposition is in Scotland at the moment but only currently with 54 MP's might be less after the GE.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> What are opposition benches for in Parliament?


Shouting, grunting, tweeting and napping from what I've seen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear, poor woman having opposition to her plans.
> 
> Here, in England?
> 
> What are opposition benches for in Parliament?
> 
> Yes, other parties did agree to a general election


Also can I actually say something here, you kept on saying earlier in this thread TM and the Government have no mandate for Brexit so TM and the Government is getting elected on one now. As you and Goblin keep saying things can and will change and they are.


----------



## Odin_cat

stockwellcat said:


> You know what happened. Theresa May was getting in the ear from Sturgeon, Farron, SNP's, Corbyn, Gina Millar and the remain supporters about not having a mandate for Brexit. She informed parliament she wished to have a GE and they said yes. She will have a mandate this time which she will be elected on so nobody can say anything then. So shell have a mandate for Brexit "if" she gets in.


Nothing at all to do with the fact she.said the EU will be sorted by 2019, and countries are lining up for trade deals.

The public wouldn't be kind in 2020 if none of her promises came to fruition.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Odin_cat said:


> Nothing at all to do with the fact she.said the EU will be sorted by 2019, and countries are lining up for trade deals.
> 
> The public wouldn't be kind in 2020 if none of her promises came to fruition.


The EU want the first phase of talks sorted by October 2017. So the UK is still on course for Brexit by 2019.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> What opposition?
> 
> There certainly isn't one in Parliament with Corbyn and a weak one with Farron the only possible opposition is in Scotland but doesn't really apply.


More spin I'd expect from the right wing press. I don't support Corbyn as you know but from what I've seen he's been far more "Strong and stable" than May's been.

And why does Scotland not apply? Just goes to show the attitude towards those North of the border from some.



stockwellcat said:


> Also can I actually say something here, you kept on saying earlier in this thread TM and the Government have no mandate for Brexit so she is getting elected on one now. As you and Goblin keep saying things can and will change and they are.


The victory in France will have certainly weakened her resolve as May's lost a potential ally in Le Pen. Sorry to keep rubbing that in.

May will probably win as I know how blind many are to reality and lap up the soundbites.

I don't want to see threads like, "They've dismantled the NHS" for example from Tory voters in the future.

Like Brexit, my conscience is clear. Not and never in my name.

I feel I have done my bit. I'm all for freedom of expression, if you want to see the NHS privatised, go ahead and vote Tory. That's the right of people in a democracy.

But if at least one person has sat up and thought about it, even if they end up backing May's team, as we must now call them, it will have been worthwhile.


----------



## Odin_cat

stockwellcat said:


> The EU want the first phase of talks sorted by October 2017. So the UK is still on course for Brexit by 2019.


True, but I'm not so sure about all those trade deals...
May's just scared and power hungry imo.


----------



## KittenKong

Odin_cat said:


> Nothing at all to do with the fact she.said the EU will be sorted by 2019, and countries are lining up for trade deals.
> 
> The public wouldn't be kind in 2020 if none of her promises came to fruition.


They'll probably blame the EU for that which will be a bit odd seeing the UK will have sacrificed all links with Europe and the EU by then!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> More spin I'd expect from the right wing press.


 Utterly wrong. Why do you always think that people read the trashy papers you do.



> The victory in France will have certainly weakened her resolve as May's lost a potential ally in Le Pen. Sorry to keep rubbing that in.


Oh didn't you know. Marcon has said he has no interest in punishing the UK for Brexit. Before you blubber right wing press again - no French news channels.


> Like Brexit, my conscience is clear.


So is mine. I cast my vote because it was my free will to but I don't need it rubbing in my face for 365 days a year. I made my decision so get over yourself that I made this decision.


> I feel I have done my bit.


 I did to.


> I'm all for freedom of expression, if you want to see the NHS privatised, go ahead and vote Tory. That's the right of people in a democracy.


 I think that is left wing media hysteria. Oh you have me doing it now. Tutt, tutt.  The NHS will still be free after the GE and more than likely be free after Brexit as well, but unfortunately like you I cannot see into the future.


----------



## Jesthar

Odin_cat said:


> True, but I'm not so sure about all those trade deals...
> May's just scared and power hungry imo.


I would have to concur, based on basic psychology, that Mrs May is one very fearful, insecure lady. Sasdly, such character traits do not tend to disappear with overwhelming majorities, either, if one takes care to learn lessons from history.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> They'll probably blame the EU for that which will be a bit odd seeing the UK will have sacrificed all links with Europe and the EU by then!


We don't know this yet. It's funny you do. Do you have a time machine or crystal ball and can see into the future as you seem to think you can tell the future before it is written or has happened?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Utterly wrong. Why do you always think that people read the trashy papers you do.
> 
> Oh didn't you know. Marcon has said he has no interest in punishing the UK for Brexit. Before you blubber right wing press again - no French news channels.
> So is mine. I cast my vote because it was my free will to but I don't need it running in my face for 365 days a year. I made my decision so get over yourself that I made this decision.
> I did to. I think that is left wing media hysteria. Oh you have me doing it now. Tutt, tutt.  The NHS will still be free after the GE and more than likely be free after Brexit as well, but unfortunately like you I cannot see into the future.


Who said anything about the EU or its member states, "Punishing Britain"? I think we know where that thought came from.

As for getting over myself I have done but it's some here who can't seem to get their heads around why we won't all back May and her hard Brexit plans.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> I would have to concur, based on basic psychology, that Mrs May is one very fearful, insecure lady. Sasdly, such character traits do not tend to disappear with overwhelming majorities, either, if one takes care to learn lessons from history.


How very true.



stockwellcat said:


> We don't know this yet. It's funny you do. Do you have a time machine or crystal ball and can see into the future as you seem to think you can tell the future before it is written or has happened?


I don't need one. It's already happening.


----------



## stuaz

The french election is actually great for Europe and the UK.

In the sense that we don't want to be trading with/negotiating with a fractured Europe or one that is arguing amougest itself. A strong Europe is better for both Europe and the UK (Regardless of if we are in it or not)


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> As for getting over myself I have done but it's some here who can't seem to get their heads around why we won't all back May and her hard Brexit plans.


Fair enough. So everyone is willing to back Corbyn's hard Brexit plans instead which happen to be the same Brexit plans that are already in place?

'This election isn't about Brexit itself,' Corbyn said. 'That issue has been settled.'


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Fair enough. So everyone is willing to back Corbyn's hard Brexit plans instead which happen to be the same Brexit plans that are already in place?
> 
> *'This election isn't about Brexit itself,' Corbyn said. 'That issue has been settled.*'


I took that to mean that Brexit will still happen and he wouldn't try and keep the UK in the EU imstead, not that he will pursue a hard Brexit.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Also can I actually say something here, you kept on saying earlier in this thread TM and the Government have no mandate for Brexit so TM and the Government is getting elected on one now.


Actually no. It is not a mandate for Brexit, especially not a hard Brexit. It's a general election not a 2nd binding referendum. To be a mandate, the issue would only be Brexit and there would first be reasonable options available. Has May listed the options by the way? You know the fact that article 50 can still be reversed?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Actually no. It is not a mandate for Brexit, especially not a hard Brexit. It's a general election not a 2nd binding referendum. To be a mandate, the issue would only be Brexit and there would first be reasonable options available. Has May listed the options by the way? You know the fact that article 50 can still be reversed?


Corbyn has no intention of 1) reversing Brexit and 2) holding a second Referendum so sorry for scuppering your dreams of article 50 being reversed. Oh May has no intention to either. If you are holding onto hopes that Lib Dems win people don't trust Farron or the Lib Dems and Farron kind of knows this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> I took that to mean that Brexit will still happen and he wouldn't try and keep the UK in the EU imstead, not that he will pursue a hard Brexit.


Fair enough.
The comment is quite vague but it is what he said today in Manchester when he launched Labours campaign, so forgive me if he didn't mean it like the way I interpreted it as it can be open to interpretation.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Fair enough. So everyone is willing to back Corbyn's hard Brexit plans instead which happen to be the same Brexit plans that are already in place?
> 
> 'This election isn't about Brexit itself,' Corbyn said. 'That issue has been settled.'


I'm glad he said that. More important issues to consider such as the NHS rather than concentrating on making sworn enemies out of our former European partners like May appears to be doing.

How do you know Corbyn's actually going for a May style hard Brexit?. For Labour to unilaterally guarantee the rights of existing citizens to stay is a good start. As is protecting workers rights and conditions.

Don't forget, the Tories strongly opposed the minimum wage in 1997.

You may consider that "weak" and caving into the EU's demands but think of those, for the moment, who came to the UK to live and work perfectly legally who might suddenly be deemed illegals overnight.

To answer your question, in an ideal world I don't back Corbyn's Brexit plans either as I'm strongly anti Brexit.

But I feel the UK will leave the block under far better terms than May's team.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> How do you know Corbyn's actually going for a May style hard Brexit. For Labour to unilaterally guarantee the rights of existing citizens to stay is a good start.
> 
> You may consider that "weak" and caving into the EU's demands but think of those, for the moment, who came to the UK to live and work perfectly legally who might suddenly be deemed illegals overnight.


Again what about our citizens living in other European countries? Shouldn't they come first? They are British after all. The problem with this is say the EU decide no to resipicate the same deal? They themselves (EU Leaders) said UK citizens rights of those living in the EU would be at risk so they would be illegal citizens overnight as well. I am sorry UK citizens come first in this case scenario.

I know about the EU 5 year residency thing but because the UK is leaving this will not apply to UK citizens living in the EU as all EU treaties will not apply on the day of Brexit to the UK and it's citizens at home or abroad.



> To answer your question, in an ideal world I don't back Corbyn's Brexit plans either as I'm strongly anti Brexit.
> 
> But I feel the UK will leave the block under far better terms than May's team.


Fair enough.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Corbyn has no intention of 1) reversing Brexit and 2) holding a second Referendum so sorry for scuppering your dreams of article 50 being reversed


So where's the mandate for brexit again? May's whole push for strengthing her negotiations are simply another lie. The outcome of talks will not be affected by how many people vote for May or how many seats she gets. Internal UK politics will be affected.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong Now that's what i call funny. :Hilarious


----------



## samuelsmiles

Canadian pension fund PSP boss Andre Bourbonnais:
*We've picked London as our base as it'll be Europe's financial heartland after Brexit.*

Well at least one small company thinks we're worth a bit of a punt. **


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> Well at least one small company thinks we're worth a bit of a punt. **


Grand total of 28 people, no mention of what happens if passporting rights are lost... So how does that counter the losses of companies who have already stated they are likely to move some work elsewhere?


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat said:


> I know about the EU 5 year residency thing but because the UK is leaving this will not apply to UK citizens living in the EU as all EU treaties will not apply on the day of Brexit to the UK and it's citizens at home or abroad.


See, that's the way I thought it applies. Maybe we are wrong, but if we are why all the worry from UK citizens living in the EU?

And I've not seen or heard anything from the EU or UK saying UK citizens in the EU are "safe".


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> See, that's the way I thought it applies. Maybe we are wrong, but if we are why all the worry from UK citizens living in the EU?
> 
> And I've not seen or heard anything from the EU or UK saying UK citizens in the EU are "safe".


I am sure on the news the other day I heard that the EU said they weren't going to unilaterally guarantee the rights of UK citizens rights until this is discussed in the negotiations. From what I read in Article 50 it states all EU treaties will cease to apply to the member state leaving the EU on the day they leave or something to that effect. So surely that would mean that UK expats living in other European countries would not have right of stay regardless if they are outside of the 5 year period as all treaties will cease to apply to the UK and it's citizens and the same to EU citizens living in the UK. Its different if said citizens decide to take up citizenship to that country as this is a totally different issue.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat said:


> I am sure on the news the other day I heard that the EU said they weren't going to unilaterally guarantee the rights of UK citizens rights until this is discussed in the negotiations. From what I read in Article 50 it states all EU treaties will cease to apply to the member state leaving the EU on the day they leave or something to that effect. So surely that would mean that UK expats living in other European countries would not have right of stay regardless if they are outside of the 5 year period as all treaties will cease to apply to the UK and it's citizens and the same to EU citizens living in the UK. Its different if said citizens decide to take up citizenship to that country as this is a totally different issue.


Yep, that's my take on it. We'll see.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> So surely that would mean that UK expats living in other European countries would not have right of stay regardless if they are outside of the 5 year period as all treaties will cease to apply to the UK and it's citizens and the same to EU citizens living in the UK. Its different if said citizens decide to take up citizenship to that country as this is a totally different issue.


Right to reside after 5 years is not limited to EU citizens  You then have



> *Vienna Convention on the law of treaties (with annex).*
> 
> *Concluded at Vienna on 23 May 1969*
> 
> *Article 70.*
> 
> CONSEQUENCES OF THE TERMINATION OF A TREATY
> 
> 1. Unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree, the termination of a treaty under its provisions or in accordance with the present Convention:
> 
> (a) Releases the parties from any obligation further to perform the treaty;
> 
> (b) Does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.
> 
> 2. If a State denounces or withdraws from a multilateral treaty, paragraph 1 applies in the relations between that State and each of the other parties to the treaty from the date when such denunciation or withdrawal takes effect.
> 
> *Article 72.*
> 
> CONSEQUENCES OF THE SUSPENSION OF THE OPERATION OF A TREATY
> 
> 1. Unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree, the suspension of the operation of a treaty under its provisions or in accordance with the
> 
> present Convention:
> 
> (a) Releases the parties between which the operation of the treaty is suspended from the obligation to perform the treaty in their mutual relations during the period of the suspension;
> 
> (b) Does not otherwise affect the legal relations between the parties established by the treaty.
> 
> 2. During the period of the suspension the parties shall refrain from acts tending to obstruct the resumption of the operation of the treaty.


What this means is immigrants retain the rights they had under the treaties even when they stop. Now this is where it gets interesting, it's not an EU convention but a UN one. France apparantly is not a signatory so UK expats in France are on less solid ground. Now we come to the crunch. Nothing to stop the rules changing after Brexit. If May wants to change the rules.. no problem. EU wants to change the rules.. far less likely and even more unlikely to happen within 5 years when people would be eligible for long term residency. UK citizens are not generally counted as a burden in the EU politically or in the media. Politically, in the UK EU citizens apparantly are. Of course both parties during negotiations could say no rights retained. Again far more likely from May as UK immigrants are not a problem in people's eyes.
.

Edit: Don't forget either that any decision from the EU to penalise UK immigrants (A.K.A expats) would likely be taken to the European Court of Justice. EU immigrants in the UK will have no such option.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Canadian pension fund PSP boss Andre Bourbonnais:
> *We've picked London as our base as it'll be Europe's financial heartland after Brexit.*
> 
> Well at least one small company thinks we're worth a bit of a punt. **


Must be gamblers as when the UK is completely isolated from the rest of Europe.... Still, none of my business what they get up to.....

This is what re-assures me. So much for the spin that the EU was on the verge of collapse.

Doesn't one feel a little sorry for May not having allies like Le Pen and Wilders to fight her corner? The only far right nationalist left in Europe is herself.

I have so much faith in our European friends for not falling for the anti EU propaganda.

Britain for the British, my a**e!

Thank you Europe and the EU. I am on your side.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Right to reside after 5 years is not limited to EU citizens  You then have
> 
> *Vienna Convention on the law of treaties (with annex).*
> 
> *Concluded at Vienna on 23 May 1969*
> 
> *Article 70.*
> 
> CONSEQUENCES OF THE TERMINATION OF A TREATY
> 
> 1. Unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree, the termination of a treaty under its provisions or in accordance with the present Convention:
> 
> (a) Releases the parties from any obligation further to perform the treaty;
> 
> (b) Does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.
> 
> 2. If a State denounces or withdraws from a multilateral treaty, paragraph 1 applies in the relations between that State and each of the other parties to the treaty from the date when such denunciation or withdrawal takes effect.
> 
> *Article 72.*
> 
> CONSEQUENCES OF THE SUSPENSION OF THE OPERATION OF A TREATY
> 
> 1. Unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree, the suspension of the operation of a treaty under its provisions or in accordance with the
> 
> present Convention:
> 
> (a) Releases the parties between which the operation of the treaty is suspended from the obligation to perform the treaty in their mutual relations during the period of the suspension;
> 
> (b) Does not otherwise affect the legal relations between the parties established by the treaty.
> 
> 2. During the period of the suspension the parties shall refrain from acts tending to obstruct the resumption of the operation of the treaty.
> 
> What this means is immigrants retain the rights they had under the treaties. Now this is where it gets interesting, it's not an EU convention but a UN one. France apparantly is not a signatory so UK expats in the EU are on less solid ground. Now we come to the crunch. Nothing to stop the rules changing after Brexit. If May wants to change the rules.. no problem according to the treaty. EU wants to change the rules.. far less likely and even more unlikely to happen within 5 years when people would be eligible for long term residency. UK citizens are not generally counted as a burden in the EU politically or in the media. Politically, in the UK EU citizens apparantly are. Of course both parties during negotiations could say no rights retained. Again far more likely from May.
> .


Article 50 states that all EU treaties will cease to apply to the member state that leaves the EU on the day it leaves including the ones you keep quoting and protesting about.

The EU leaders refuse to even enter discussions on unilaterelly guaranteeing UK citizens rights (Expats) so why on earth would they do this then if they have a right of stay? Why should the UK guarantee EU citizens rights over here in the same instance? Also EU citizens over here in the UK are applying for citizenship as they have been here longer than 5 years.

@Goblin if you think you are so cocksure this won't affect you, I hate to be the bearer of bad news as it will. Contact the local administration center of whatever they call it over in Germany and find out for yourself.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Right to reside after 5 years is not limited to EU citizens  You then have
> 
> What this means is immigrants retain the rights they had under the treaties even when they stop. Now this is where it gets interesting, it's not an EU convention but a UN one. France apparantly is not a signatory so UK expats in France are on less solid ground. Now we come to the crunch. Nothing to stop the rules changing after Brexit. If May wants to change the rules.. no problem. EU wants to change the rules.. far less likely and even more unlikely to happen within 5 years when people would be eligible for long term residency. UK citizens are not generally counted as a burden in the EU politically or in the media. Politically, in the UK EU citizens apparantly are. Of course both parties during negotiations could say no rights retained. Again far more likely from May as UK immigrants are not a problem in people's eyes.
> .
> 
> Edit: Don't forget either that any decision from the EU to penalise UK immigrants (A.K.A expats) would likely be taken to the European Court of Justice. EU immigrants in the UK will have no such option.


1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

*3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.*

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

Regarding your edit your wrong as EU citizens are applying for UK citizenship so they don't have to leave. Have you considered becoming a German citizen?

Edited: The treaties include the Vienna treaty.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Article 50 states that all EU treaties will cease to apply to the member state that leaves the EU on the day it leaves including the ones you keep quoting and protesting about.


Maybe you missed the bit about it's a United Nations treaty, not EU treaty so it still applies. Try again.



> The EU leaders refuse to even enter discussions on unilaterelly guaranteeing UK citizens rights (Expats) so why on earth would they do this then if they have a right of stay? Why should the UK guarantee EU citizens rights over here in the same instance? Also EU citizens over here in the UK are applying for citizenship as they have been here longer than 5 years.


Do you remember that simple thing, Hand in Article 50. Negotiations can then start. Negotiations before trade deals. Things like immigrant rights are part of negotiations. May wanted to negotiate before handing in article 50 and include trade in those negotiations (two totally different EU processes).

UK immigrants in the EU have not been persecuted and have been assured they are welcome to stay from EU leaders. Far different from May who has called them bargaining chips.



> @Goblin if you think you are so cocksure this won't affect you, I hate to be the bearer of bad news as it will.


Erm.. no it will not. Even under EU rules and german rules for non-eu residents I have the right to stay. You'll have to do better than that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Maybe you missed the bit about it's a United Nations treaty, not EU treaty so it still applies. Try again.
> 
> Do you remember that simple thing, Hand in Article 50. Negotiations can then start. Negotiations before trade deals. Things like immigrant rights are part of negotiations. However UK immigrants in the EU have not been persecuted and have been assured they are welcome to stay from EU leaders. Far different from May who has called them bargaining chips.
> 
> Erm.. no it will not.


EU citizens haven't been persecuted over
here in the UK. People have left on there own accord as they didn't want to follow this countries immigration laws and fill out the appropriate paperwork. You forget the UK is not part of the Schegen zone do the Schegen zone treaties do not apply like they don't apply in Ireland. So try again.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> EU citizens haven't been perfected over here in the UK. People have left on there own accord as the didn't want to follow this countries immigration laws. You forget the UK is not part of the Schegen zone do the Schegen zone treaties do not apply like they don't apply in Ireland. So try again.


People can also leave germany, not forced to stay. Your post is meaningless. We aren't talking about schengen rules after all but freedom of movement. If UK could make up rules as they went, why was immigration an issue of the leave campaign?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> German rules for non-eu residents I have the right to stay. You'll have to do better than that.


 No I won't. Those rules apply to Germany maybe only. I suggest instead of mouthing off on here check it out so you are sure for certain


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> People can also leave germany, not forced to stay. Your post is meaningless. We aren't talking about schengen rules after all but freedom of movement. If UK could make up rules as they went, why was immigration an issue of the leave campaign?


Immigration is nothing to with the leave Campaign it has been an issue in the UK for a long time before this. The topic was highlighted in the Referendum Campaign and now you won't let it drop. At the end of the day it is only your opinion the article 50 treaty says to the contrary to what you are saying.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> People can also leave germany, not forced to stay. Your post is meaningless. We aren't talking about schengen rules after all but freedom of movement. If UK could make up rules as they went, why was immigration an issue of the leave campaign?


Nobody has been forced out of the UK, they refused to fill in the necessary paperwork to apply for right of stay and left of their own accord. In Germany, France, Holland, Spain etc you have to fill in this paperwork when you initially seek permission to stay, I know because I had to in Holland and it was a headache.

So again no one has been forced to leave the UK it is fake press stories that you chose to believe. The Dutch lady with her UK husband had been granted UK citizenship last week instead of applying for a right of stay before you use her story. She is now a fully fledged UK citizen.

These rules aren't being made up as they go along they have always been there just like in your country of residence at the moment.

Your posts are pretty meaningless as you claim to know everything about UK politics and Brexit but you don't even live here. Don't take this the wrong way but you are a bit out of touch with things.


----------



## leashedForLife

stockwellcat said,

... _no one has been forced to leave the UK ... *The Dutch lady with her UK husband* was granted UK citizenship last week ... She is now a fully fledged UK citizen._
...
_________________
.
.
I don't have daily access to the UK newspapers, but i know it was at least 4, possibly 5 different cases of EU nationals who'd been employed & living in the UK for 10 or more years, whose stories were all posted on PF-uk.  It wasn't ONE woman - it was multiple persons. 

Some of those children are now teenagers, & they'd been BORN in the UK, of EU parents who worked in the UK full-time - & yes, their parents filled out the documents, & their children *were notified by written formal notice* that they cannot stay, as they "cannot *prove *their residency".
Given that they'd been educated in UK schools, i'd think that was pretty self-apparent! - at least 9 mos of 12, they were in the UK in school, right?  Surely they still keep some sort of records of attendance, graduation [elementary school], entering middle school, & finally high school?!
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

When I lived in Holland to get residency there so I could look for work I had to fill a mountain of paperwork in for the Foreign Police (Vreemdelingenpolitie) who process these applications. I was then granted 3 months to find a job and the following choice 1) if I found temporary work they would extend the residency for 1 year at the end of the 3 month period or I had to leave if I didn't I find work 2) if I found permanent work I could get a 5 year residency permission which would be renewed after this period after you provide more paperwork.

I had to fly back to the UK to get all my certificates apostillised including my birth certificate and qualification certificates which cost me, this was before I could register in Holland and then I had to fill in more paperwork before I could get a job.

So it is not unusual for EU citizens to be asked to fill in paperwork to reside in the UK as it is common practice to do so in other European Countries as well. So it isn't illegal or unfair to ask people to do this.

People are leaving of there own accord as they don't want to go through this process and trust me it is a headache.


----------



## stockwellcat.

leashedForLife said:


> stockwellcat said,
> 
> ... _no one has been forced to leave the UK ... *The Dutch lady with her UK husband* was granted UK citizenship last week ... She is now a fully fledged UK citizen._
> ...
> _________________
> .
> .
> I don't have daily access to the UK newspapers, but i know it was at least 4, possibly 5 different cases of EU nationals who'd been employed & living in the UK for 10 or more years, whose stories were all posted on PF-uk.  It wasn't ONE woman - it was multiple persons.
> 
> Some of those children are now teenagers, & they'd been BORN in the UK, of EU parents who worked in the UK full-time - & yes, their parents filled out the documents, & their children *were notified by written formal notice* that they cannot stay, as they "cannot *prove *their residency".
> Given that they'd been educated in UK schools, i'd think that was pretty self-apparent! - at least 9 mos of 12, they were in the UK in school, right?  Surely they still keep some sort of records of attendance, graduation [elementary school], entering middle school, & finally high school?!
> .
> .
> .


Well they probably wanted proof that these people continuously resided in the UK for the period they are claiming they were here for. This is normal practice it's nothing unusual I went through this in Holland. They were probably asked to leave because they couldn't prove this. You do know you can leave an EU country and re-enter the following day and start the process again. These people probably have not been residing in the UK for the whole of the 5 year period and have gone back home to there country and came back to the UK hoping the UK immigration authorities didn't find out. If you do this by the way you do have to start the process all over again and your previous claim to residency maybe questioned. So no laws have been broken.

Don't you love the media spouting out half stories or fake news.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Doesn't one feel a little sorry for May not having allies like Le Pen and Wilders to fight her corner?


No. There's no need, she seems perfectly capable on handling things on her own and probably prefers it



stockwellcat said:


> I found permanent work I could get a 5 year residency permission which would be renewed after this period after you provide more paperwork.


This is what one of my clients had to do a few months ago. She could apply for citizenship and get it easily because she's married to an English man and has two children born in this country, but she prefers to renew residency every 5 years


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Immigration is nothing to with the leave Campaign it has been an issue in the UK for a long time before this.


You have got to be kidding me...



stockwellcat said:


> When I lived in Holland to get residency there so I could look for work I had to fill a mountain of paperwork in for the Foreign Police (Vreemdelingenpolitie) who process these applications... So it is not unusual for EU citizens to be asked to fill in paperwork to reside in the UK as it is common practice to do so in other European Countries as well. So it isn't illegal or unfair to ask people to do this.


Yes it is.. strange isn't it the fact people have to register and have to find jobs.. not simply sponge off the state. EU rules allow it yet for some reason the UK government doesn't use these allowed rules. They prefer to simply say "EU stops us", "we cannot contol immigration in any way". Says it all doesn't it.

Another thing about negotiations.. Did you know in places like Germany you can be a dual citizen if from another EU country. You cannot be a dual citizen from a country outside the EU. How about standardising these rules when it comes to the UK and the EU? Doesn't affect me again, I'm british but does potentially have an impact on my daughter.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You have got to be kidding me...


No I am not kidding. In 2010 the Tories had it in there manifesto about reducing immigration levels and again in 2015 and it is going to be in this year's GE manifesto. So no it wasn't just mentioned in the EU Referendum pledges and campaign.


> Another thing about negotiations.. Did you know in places like Germany you can be a dual citizen if from another EU country. You cannot be a dual citizen from a country outside the EU. How about standardising these rules when it comes to the UK and the EU? Doesn't affect me again, I'm british but does potentially have an impact on my daughter.


You can be dual national in the UK if you apply for UK citizenship and EU nationals are realising that and applying for UK citizenship. Spain doesn't allow dual nationality btw and other EU countries don't either. I could have got dual Dutch Nationality as I fitted all there rules but decided not to. You have to do a residency exam in Dutch to get this and swear an allegiance to there country like you have to in the UK.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> You can be dual national in the UK if you apply for UK citizenship and EU nationals are realising that and applying for UK citizenship. Spain doesn't allow dual nationality btw and other EU countries don't either. I could have got dual Dutch Nationality as I fitted all there rules but decided not to. You have to do a residency exam in Dutch to get this and swear an allegiance like you have to in the UK.


My Brother in law has Dual citizenship so I know that it's possible


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> My Brother in law has Dual citizenship so I know that it's possible


I am technically but I choose not to claim my Irish citizenship/nationality as I have lived the majority of my life in the UK.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> No I am not kidding. In 2010 the Tories had it in there manifesto about reducing immigration levels and again in 2015 and it is going to be in this year's GE manifesto. So no it wasn't just mentioned in the EU Referendum pledges and campaign.


Who said anything about it being in other places? Despite your denial and squirming.. Control of immigration was one of the foundations of the leave campaign and one which gained a lot of votes. Lies of course like most other things from the leave campaign. You've already agreed countries had allowed controls in place which the UK never used.



> You can be dual national in the UK if you apply for UK citizenship and EU nationals are realising that and applying for UK citizenship. Spain doesn't allow dual nationality btw and other EU countries don't either.


Which could all be made redundant after the UK leaves and rules potentially change. What people need is stability, to know things will remain the same. They've had EU leaders saying it, May preferred to start with using EU citizens as bargaining chips. So why not negotiate an EU wide agreement as to if it's allowed or not?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Which could all be made redundant after the UK leaves and rules potentially change. What people need is stability, to know things will remain the same.


Yes I know and it will affect UK citizens living in other European countries, this is the bit you don't get.

Yes people do need stability and it isn't helping Junker coming out with jibs at the UK and making threats. Before you saybhe hasn't, he has, Merkel and Tusk have had a go at him about this.


----------



## Odin_cat

Haven't the home office admitted it will take years and years to process all the applications? What happens to people in the meantime...stuck in limbo wondering where they stand?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Yes I know and it will affect UK citizens living in other European countries, this is the bit you don't get.
> 
> Yes people do need stability and it isn't helping Junker coming out with jibs at the UK and making threats. Before you saybhe hasn't, he has, Merkel and Tusk have had a go at him about this.


So what are these unfounded threats then? Merkal for example was furious about the leaks from the dinner Junker attended. Not the content. Tusk called for discretion, moderation and goodwill to help ease tensions ahead of Britain's exit. It's about the attitude and impression, not the contents. Just what unfounded threats has Junker made? It's not about threats, it's about realities. 2 years to negotiate, highly unlikely to start with... Chance of a deal, slim.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Odin_cat said:


> Haven't the home office admitted it will take years and years to process all the applications? What happens to people in the meantime...stuck in limbo wondering where they stand?


If you have been here 5+years and can prove it wouldn't it be easier to apply for dual nationality/citizenship? The dutch lady done it. You sit a residency test and then if you pass swear to an allegiance to the UK and get a letter the same day you are now a citizen of the UK and you can keep your current nationality/citizenship as well as dual nationality/citizenship is accepted in the UK.

About the processing times of applications this is something you need to bring up when you apply or submit paperwork as requested. I do not know the answer to this so sorry.

Regarding if you have been here less than 5 years you have to keep doing everything as requested to stay here. Other EU countries have the same procedure in place.

https://www.gov.uk/dual-citizenship

Take note of this: 
There will be no change to the rights and status of EU nationals living in the UK while the UK remains in the EU.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/uk-leaving-the-eu-what-you-need-to-know


----------



## Odin_cat

stockwellcat said:


> If you have been here 5+years and can prove it wouldn't it be easier to apply for dual nationality/citizenship? The dutch lady done it. You sit a residency test and then if you pass swear to an allegiance to the UK and get a letter the same day you are now a citizen of the UK and you can keep your current nationality/citizenship as well as dual nationality/citizenship is accepted in the UK.
> 
> About the processing times of applications this is something you need to bring up when you apply or submit paperwork as requested. I do not know the answer to this so sorry.
> 
> Regarding if you have been here less than 5 years you have to keep doing everything as requested to stay here. Other EU countries have the same procedure in place.


And if people don't want to become citizens? I don't see why they should be forced to.

The home office should have been prepared for this, it doesn't seem like they are!

Edit: it appears you have to have residency before you apply for citizenship.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Odin_cat said:


> And if people don't want to become citizens? I don't see why they should be forced to.
> 
> The home office should have been prepared for this, it doesn't seem like they are!


I don't control the home office and your gripe is with them. I am afraid I don't know the answers for you. You are best bringing it up with them but I can assure you I had to go through the same process in Holland and the turn around time was quicker there as everything was processed in front of you but I do believe this has changed now. I know this doesn't help your situation.


----------



## Odin_cat

stockwellcat said:


> I don't control the home office and your gripe is with them. I am afraid I don't know the answers for you. You are best bringing it up with them but I can assure you I had to go through the same process in Holland and the turn around time was quicker there as everything was processed in front of you but I do believe this has changed now. I know this doesn't help your situation.


I don't have a gripe...I'm a British citizen.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> No. There's no need, she seems perfectly capable on handling things on her own and probably prefers it


Yes, it's easy to come winging on national television claiming the EU are influencing her election and using them as a scapegoat when she doesn't get her own way.

"Strong and Stable" eh?


----------



## KittenKong

An artists take on two very famous campaign slogans...


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Yes, it's easy to come winging on national television claiming the EU are influencing her election and using them as a scapegoat when she doesn't get her own way.
> 
> "Strong and Stable" eh?


Not sure what your point is here as relevant to the question you asked and I answered


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> *3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.*


That's why we're negotiating for the next 18 months. If we don't reach agreement on what replaces the Treaties, then nothing will. It's why they want to get that part of the discussions out the way early.

Except, of course, if May thinks the EU is offering a 'bad deal', then apparently that's what she'll go for. The 'no deal' where the treaties cease to apply, and there are no agreements to replace them, including no reciprocal citizens' rights.

That's the 'no deal is better than a bad deal' position so beloved of Tory sheep.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Except, of course, if May thinks the EU is offering a 'bad deal', then apparently that's what she'll go for. The 'no deal' where the treaties cease to apply, and there are no agreements to replace them, including no reciprocal citizens' rights.
> 
> That's the 'no deal is better than a bad deal' position so beloved of Tory sheep.


Think this is what the outcome is going to be. The EU will be blamed of course for not accepting May's ridiculous demands and her unwillingness to listen nor compromise.

By walking away with no deal that'll be one less job for May's team.

Then they can get back to doing what they do best- cut benefits for the disabled, privatise health care and bring back foxhunting.


----------



## leashedForLife

stockwellcat waid,

..._Well [*the UK authorities*] *probably wanted proof that these people continuously resided in the UK for the period they are claiming* they were here for. This is normal practice it's nothing unusual I went through this in Holland. 
They were probably asked to leave because *they couldn't prove this.* _
...
____________________________
.
.
As i already pointed out clearly, SWC:
- "these ppl" were *teenagers, born in the UK* of EU parents
- said parents had *worked full-time in the UK *for over 20-years; not they, *but their children*, were told they'd have to leave.
- "these ppl" had *attended UK schools* thru-out their childhoods
- surely UK schools keep *attendance records*? - Or don't they?
- "these ppl" would have to get THOSE RECORDS from said UK schools - which one would think, could easily retrieve them & supply them to said UK authorities?...
if not, why not?
.
.
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

The latest from Gibraltar: Loss Of EU passporting means loss of HALF of our jobs.
That means those people if British would have to go to and find work on mainland Britain. Leaving all behind ..homes that they paid for all their lives, pets...

Spain, though very happy with their duty free tax Canary Islands is determined to squash our status ...
We have population of 30 k, 3 k work in online gaming, about 5k in insurance and other financial services...without access to EU they are gone except for UK use.

With Spain demanding changes to our status , not half but all jobs in finance will be gone.
Gibraltar as a financial centre will be finished.

Thank you Brexit and all who voted for it.
Just fo not tell us to go with Spain.
Britain does not show much support for us, but Spanish ruling right wing Partido Popular is trying to destroy our economy.

Even if it will ruin entire region of Campo de Gibraltar. Depriving about 100 thousand Spanish families of their income , region that already has 40% unemployment.
That is Madrid politics.
That is why Andalusia also starts talking about independence.

Meanwhile British economy is slowing down, cracks are showing...
Weak pound is taking its toll....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Project Fear?
To be completed by 2020...


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Think this is what the outcome is going to be. The EU will be blamed of course for not accepting May's ridiculous demands and her unwillingness to listen nor compromise.
> 
> By walking away with no deal that'll be one less job for May's team.
> 
> Then they can get back to doing what they do best- cut benefits for the disabled, privatise health care and bring back foxhunting.


I hope it isn't the outcome. I think they will discuss the rights of citizens at the start, hopefully agree - though there will be sticking points - and then take that topic completely off the table as they move on. But the sooner they do that, after June 8th of course, the better.

After that I think there will be an economic deal of some sort, not least because, despite the silly comments of a few, there isn't a deal that is worse than no deal.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> After that I think there will be an economic deal of some sort, not least because, despite the silly comments of a few, there isn't a deal that is worse than no deal.


Actually there is a bar set for no deal being better than a bad deal and that's moving over to WTO conditions.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually there is a bar set for no deal being better than a bad deal and that's moving over to WTO conditions.


We probably know what 'no deal' is, at least on trade terms, but what I still haven't seen is an example of a 'bad deal' which is purportedly even worse. Have you got one?


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually there is a bar set for no deal being better than a bad deal and that's moving over to WTO conditions.


So describe the specifics of that WTO option, not simply tariffs but non-tariff barriers. What are the effects of the WTO option? You can start with a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, between Spain and Gibraltar. Rather than a soundbite.. once you look at what it means, WTO option is still a bad deal.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So describe the specifics of that WTO option, not simply tariffs but non-tariff barriers. What are the effects of the WTO option? You can start with a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, between Spain and Gibraltar. Rather than a soundbite.. once you look at what it means, WTO option is still a bad deal.


Never said it wasn't a bad deal, what I said is that is where the bar is set. Mrs May and the EU have to come up with something better. If all the EU offer is worse than WTO then "no deal is better than a bad deal" it's not a meaningless statement but a statement of fact - for both sides.


----------



## Goblin

Pretty low bar considering "not leaving" is still on the table and is a better deal for the UK.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Pretty low bar considering "not leaving" is still on the table and is a better deal for the UK.


Trouble is it's not all about trade. We voted to join a common market and if that was all it still was I'm sure we would have voted remain, I know I would have, but it's morphed into something so much more that the majority think is unacceptable.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Trouble is it's not all about trade. We voted to join a common market and if that was all it still was I'm sure we would have voted remain, I know would have, but it's morphed into something so much more that the majority think is unacceptable.


According to which evidence? People voted to leave for many reason, mostly repeating lies when asked why. Certainly people have generally not been able to back up their arguments for leaving which actually can be compared with reality. You yourself are surprisingly unable to provide any real detail.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Never said it wasn't a bad deal, what I said is that is where the bar is set. Mrs May and the EU have to come up with something better. *If all the EU offer is worse than WTO then "no deal is better than a bad deal" *it's not a meaningless statement but a statement of fact - for both sides.


So what might the EU offer that is worse than 'no deal'?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> According to which evidence? People voted to leave for many reason, mostly repeating lies when asked why. Certainly people have generally not been able to back up their arguments for leaving which actually can be compared with reality. You yourself are surprisingly unable to provide any real detail.


You got your crystal ball out again? We don't know the reality yet, negotiations haven't even started.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> So what might the EU offer that is worse than 'no deal'?


Really, I mean really. I thought I made that very clear. You even highlighted it yourself.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> You got your crystal ball out again? We don't know the reality yet, negotiations haven't even started.


Normal response..evasion. You don't need to have a crystal ball to know the past.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Really, I mean really. I thought I made that very clear.


Sorry, I'm being thick, not awkward; what would be the characteristics of a deal worse than the WTO option, with tariffs, customs controls, no membership of the 35 EU agencies we are currently involved with, ejection from current research projects, etc.?

Bearing in mind that we're not going to have the details of a trade deal within the next 18 months or so, which is when May has to make her recommendation to Parliament, what horrors would be on the table that would lead her to recommend walking away with nothing?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, I'm being thick, not awkward; what would be the characteristics of a deal worse than the WTO option, with tariffs, customs controls, no membership of the 35 EU agencies we are currently involved with, ejection from current research projects, etc.?
> 
> Bearing in mind that we're not going to have the details of a trade deal within the next 18 months or so, which is when May has to make her recommendation to Parliament, what horrors would be on the table that would lead her to recommend walking away with nothing?


Ok, you misunderstood. What I'm saying is no deal would mean WTO for both UK and EU, so they need to agree something better. If they can't agree something better then no deal means WTO which is better than a bad deal. WTO is the bar to work from in the best interest of both parties.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> WTO is the bar to work from in the best interest of both parties.


Again a false assumption and one the EU and EU businesses have rejected. The EU is working at the bar of ensuring that membership retains benefits to go along with the responsibilities.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Again a false assumption and one the EU and EU businesses have rejected. The EU is working at the bar of ensuring that membership retains benefits to go along with the responsibilities.


If you mean freedom of movement the UK are not working at that bar. Hence why it's called "negotiations". And if they fail it's the WTO for all 28 countries.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Ok, you misunderstood. What I'm saying is no deal would mean WTO for both UK and EU, so they need to agree something better. If they can't agree something better then no deal means WTO which is better than a bad deal. WTO is the bar to work from in the best interest of both parties.


Ok, I get that - WTO is what no deal means, with tariffs and customs checks applied to 46% of our exports and 13% of theirs.

But (sorry) what could the EU offer us that we would consider to be worse than WTO (and all the other stuff like agency membership, research etc)?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Ok, I get that - WTO is what no deal means, with tariffs and customs checks applied to 46% of our exports and 13% of theirs.
> 
> But (sorry) what could the EU offer us that we would consider to be worse than WTO (and all the other stuff like agency membership, research etc)?


Who knows? I was just saying that a bar has been set for "no deal". Hopefully both sides will bash out something far more accommodating for all.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Normal response..evasion. You don't need to have a crystal ball to know the past.


Trouble is our time travel so far can only go forwards and not back.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Goblin I have looked into the Vienna Convention and from what I read does not apply to the EU treaties or free movement treaty as this is different even though we are signed up to the Vienna Convention. It's like the Commonwealth issue, we are signed up to the Commonwealth but EU trade over rules it as we are part of the EU. From what I understand the Vienna Convention is part of the United Nations but is separate as we have to abide to EU law and no it cannot be fallen back on to keep the UK in the EU or free movement. I don't know if the UK will have to ratify the Vienna Convention as currently the UK is part of it by assension. Several countries have ratified there status in the Vienna Convention including Italy. We can stay in the Vienna Treaty and not accept free movement as free movement is to do with the EU which we are leaving. EU laws over ride the Vienna Convention just like EU trading laws do not permit the UK to enter agreements with Commonwealth countries even though we are party of it.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> @Goblin I have looked into the Vienna Convention and from what I read does not apply to the EU treaties or free movement treaty as this is different even though we are signed up to the Vienna Convention.


The conditions being discussed come into affect on termination of those EU treaties.



Dr Pepper said:


> If you mean freedom of movement the UK are not working at that bar. Hence why it's called "negotiations". And if they fail it's the WTO for all 28 countries.


No, 27 of those countries can quite happily trade with each other outside WTO rules. The EU trades with the UK under WTO rules, not individual countries. EU is effectively a single entity.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> No, 27 of those countries can quite happily trade with each other outside WTO rules. The EU trades with the UK under WTO rules, not individual countries. EU is effectively a single entity.


Yes, obviously, but if they want to trade with the UK as well (13% of their market is it?) They will want favorable terms, it's not all the UK trying to get EU benefits, trade deals work both ways. It will effect 28 countries.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> The conditions being discussed come into affect on termination of those EU treaties.


 We'll see as it's funny no EU leader has mentioned the Vienna Convention. Our membership to the UN is not up for negotiation it is the EU treaties that are being discussed and negotiated on. You will find the Vienna Convention does not apply in this instance as EU laws over ride it and so does our membership to the EU. So one thinks you are desperately grasping at straws in the hope in your world that everything is stopped. It won't be by the way.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> We'll see as it's funny no EU leader has mentioned the Vienna Convention. Our membership to the UN is not up for negotiation it is the EU treaties that are being discussed and negotiated on. You will find the Vienna Convention does not apply in this instance as EU laws over ride it and so does our membership to the EU. So one thinks you are desperately grasping at straws in the hope in your world that everything is stopped. It won't be by the way.


We leave the EU, Vienna Convention which deals with termination of treaties kicks in. You seem to be really desparate..


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> *Who knows?* I was just saying that a bar has been set for "no deal". Hopefully both sides will bash out something far more accommodating for all.


Well, apparently, no-one! That's pretty much my point.

No-one has been able to describe a deal that is worse than the 'no deal' option. Which makes May's soundbite no more than just that; a soundbite to please the masses.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> We leave the EU, Vienna Convention which deals with termination of treaties kicks in. You seem to be really desparate..


No. You do.
No EU leader has mentioned this. So we'll see won't we. The UK is a member of the EU for the next two years at least or until we leave the EU. The Vienna Convention does not apply because it does not control free movement. The EU laws and treaties are separate from this and these are what we are negotiating not our UN status.


----------



## stockwellcat.

All I am going to add Goblin is we will see when the negotiations happen won't we. Thus far nobody has mentioned this from the EU or UK negotiating teams. 

So again we will see who is right won't we.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes, obviously, but if they want to trade with the UK as well (13% of their market is it?) They will want favorable terms, it's not all the UK trying to get EU benefits, trade deals work both ways. It will effect 28 countries.


They will most certainly offer us favourable terms. They won't be as good as they are now because we can't be better off outside the EU as inside. So, since we have chosen to leave the single market, the customs union and block free movement, they will treat us as a 'third country', but one with relatively good terms. They won't be as bad as WTO terms, but they will be somewhere between what we've got now, and what those WTO terms would be.

And we'll accept. Because what choice have we got? Will May hold a gun to her own head and say "Give me a better offer or the dame gets it"? She'll take it because WTO - the only other option - is worse. That's why no-one can think of a 'bad deal' worse than 'no deal'; because, given our initial red lines, there isn't one.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> They will most certainly offer us favourable terms. They won't be as good as they are now because we can't be better off outside the EU as inside. So, since we have chosen to leave the single market, the customs union and block free movement, they will treat us as a 'third country', but one with relatively good terms. They won't be as bad as WTO terms, but they will be somewhere between what we've got now, and what those WTO terms would be.
> 
> And we'll accept. Because what choice have we got? Will May hold a gun to her own head and say "Give me a better offer or the dame gets it"? She'll take it because WTO - the only other option - is worse. That's why no-one can think of a 'bad deal' worse than 'no deal'; because, given our initial red lines, there isn't one.


Yep, and that's probably the outcome leavers hoped for. Because that concession is worth the sacrifice for being free from the EU, as I said trade wasn't the only issue by far.

Saying that Brexit supporters would also happily leave on WTO if need be, as that wasn't their major concern.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Yep, and that's probably the outcome leavers hoped for. Because that concession is worth the sacrifice for being free from the EU, as I said trade wasn't the only issue by far.
> 
> Saying that Brexit supporters would also happily leave on WTO if need be, as that wasn't their major concern.


It may, very sadly, be true that a perceived pseudo-subservience of our tribe was the driving factor for many.

But since we're not going to be allowed to vote on whether we like the negotiated option or not, we'll never know.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The Vienna Convention does not apply because it does not control free movement.


Any treaty which is terminated is covered. It doesn't need to control anything. That's the whole point. Yes negotiations are going to happen, pensions, health cover etc all need to be sorted for those who wouldn't otherwise be covered when we leave. The EU has stated it is a priority when negotiations start.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Any treaty which is terminated is covered. It doesn't need to control anything. That's the whole point. Yes negotiations are going to happen, pensions, health cover etc all need to be sorted for those who wouldn't otherwise be covered when we leave. *The EU has stated it is a priority when negotiations start.*


I do believe TM agreed.
So there is no need to make the UK Government look like plums as they have mentioned this on a number of occasions before the EU officially agreed to do this lately. Difference is the UK Government didn't need to get approval from 27 member states to agree to negotiate this first.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I do believe TM agreed.
> So there is no need to make the UK Government look like plums as they have mentioned this on a number of occasions before the EU officially agreed to do this lately. *Difference is the UK Government didn't need to get approval from 27 member states to agree to negotiate this first*.


The EU 27 were, reasonably enough, waiting until Article 50 was triggered.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The EU 27 were, reasonably enough, waiting until Article 50 was triggered.


So was the UK saying they was going to negotiate these issues before they triggered article 50. The EU have just said it needs discussing first, I haven't seen the Government saying no as it was them that said this needs discussing first many times before.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I do believe TM agreed.
> So there is no need to make the UK Government look like plums as they have mentioned this on a number of occasions before the EU officially agreed to do this lately. Difference is the UK Government didn't need to get approval from 27 member states to agree to negotiate this first.


May's first position was to use EU nationals as a bargaining chip. When that didn't work she changed her tune.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> May's first position was to use EU nationals as a bargaining chip. When that didn't work she changed her tune.


Why don't you come over to the UK go to 10 Downing Street and tell TM all your concerns as you obviously have a gripe with her. Oh I forgot she's in the middle of a GE campaign so probably won't be able to see you.

No one is a bargaining chip it's the way you perceive it. The same could be said about the UK citizens living in the EU as the EU have said they cannot guarantee there rights at this stage. TM has said throughout she wanted to sort this out early on in the negotiations and has repeatedly said this over and over again. Sorry you missed this vital piece of information.

I am not getting into a tit for tat rolling arguement with you as this has been repeated over and over in this thread and is getting boring having to repeat what has already been said.

Wait and see what happens with the negotiations that is the only thing you can do right now, like everyone else has to.


----------



## Guest

So let´s summarize: You voted Brexit based on promises how things will get better, as EU "stole" you money and ability to decide for your own affairs. When you got Brexit, those reasons are no longer valid and you have really no idea what will happen. Well, not the first time politician have lied. Sh*t. happens.

Now when it is time to vote, who will "lead you to Brexit, what ever it means", the main candidate refuses to discuss about it with other candidates, Nor will she tell, what her plans are for Brexit. Or healthcare. Or social welfare. Looks like you will end up with nothing wih her too. Not just Brexit but without any plan Brexit. So you vote for her and you´ll end up againg with nothing. Again sh*t happens.

Sorry, but to me it is like you go to gallows and realise what happened only when the hangman is getting the rope ready. I don´t get it. Why do you accept this "I don´t even want or deserve to know attitude?". I´d be demanding plans, analysis of the multiple affects Brexit has and analysis of what each party´s plans have for your lives. I´d be demanding endless discussions and debates, and really wouldn´t give a damn if someone wanting to decide things for me didn´t like it. Tough. Hand the job to the one, who isn´t afraid and is able to handle this and is able to reveal the plans.


----------



## Zaros

Phuqin 'ell! It seems that Britain is in such a state since I left, I'd better come back and put things right again! :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> Phuqin 'ell! It seems that Britain is in such a state since I left, I'd better come back and put things right again! :Hilarious


Standing in for Corbyn?
If you needed deputy I am ok with basic maths....

But honestly I am ready to vote for someone who does not change their spots and can stick to their promises/ convictions for at least a term or two.
So farvonly Nicola seem to that steady

So far it is Remind today, Leave tomorrow, no fees, then triple fees, money for NHS, privatisation of NHS....

Gutless wasters.

What a choice!!!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> No one is a bargaining chip it's the way you perceive it. The same could be said about the UK citizens living in the EU as the EU have said they cannot guarantee there rights at this stage. TM has said throughout she wanted to sort this out early on in the negotiations and has repeatedly said this over and over again. Sorry you missed this vital piece of information.


Let's see, May's policy, negotiate before we state we are leaving. This way we can negotiate indefinately. EU.. no, only when you actually start to leave. May, well we can't guarantee EU national rights then.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/...e-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-are-bargaining-chips/

Interesting point here..


> Organisations representing UK citizens resident in Germany, Gibraltar, France, Spain, Finland, and Belgium signed a joint letter to the PM urging her to unilaterally offer guarantees to non-UK EU citizens. *There is no evidence of hostility against UK citizens in the EU-27*, and *assigning blame to Union institutions for supposedly refusing to reach a reciprocal agreement before the UK serves its Article 50 notification is a red herring*.


I know you've said EU immigrants were not part of of the leave campaign.. then again maybe you can explain why May is insisting on getting rid of free movement? Maybe you can explain why racial attacks in the UK rose dramatically after the referendum?



MrsZee said:


> So let´s summarize: You voted Brexit based on promises how things will get better, as EU "stole" you money and ability to decide for your own affairs. When you got Brexit, those reasons are no longer valid and you have really no idea what will happen. Well, not the first time politician have lied. Sh*t. happens.


Sums it up pretty well. Then again the leave campaign didn't lie. Remain campaign did and the economy is not being hit, people aren't paying more for basic necessities...


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Standing in for Corbyn?
> If you needed deputy I am ok with basic maths....
> I am ready to vote for someone who can stick to their convictions.


No worries Scrippy, I have Zara&Oscar. Both are excellent calculators.

As for my convictions, according to the judge, they're not going to go away this side of the grave.


----------



## noushka05

Didn't someone on here say they were voting for brexit because of the way the EU treats fishermen?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> No worries Scrippy, I have Zara&Oscar. Both are excellent calculators.
> 
> As for my convictions, according to the judge, they're not going to go away this side of the grave.


Just what I thought.
But I am glad you have some.
So Zara steps in for Abbott and Oscar for Donnell?
I am warming up to this idea....


----------



## Elles

Oh. In Devon and Cornwall fishing was one of the reasons people voted leave. They wanted control of the waters, there was a lot of talk about how they felt Germany and France get more of our fish than they should. I remember the cod wars, they had nothing to do with the Eu.


----------



## Zaros

Elles said:


> I remember the cod wars, they had nothing to do with the Eu.


So do I, it destroyed the Hull fishing fleet and, I'm told, the outcome had more to do with the 'influence' of that, supposed good old pal, America. British government selling its own out yet again just to keep up appearances.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Oh. In Devon and Cornwall fishing was one of the reasons people voted leave. They wanted control of the waters, there was a lot of talk about how they felt Germany and France get more of our fish than they should. I remember the cod wars, they had nothing to do with the Eu.





Zaros said:


> So do I, it destroyed the Hull fishing fleet and, I'm told, the outcome had more to do with the 'influence' of that, supposed good old pal, America. British government selling its own out yet again just to keep up appearances.


The EU has been made a scapegoat & loads of people fell for it. Cornwall is also going to lose out on the massive funding it gets from the EU. So many people have voted to make themselves (& us) poorer.

Seen this about Dorsets fishermen?

Dorset fishermen hoping to regain their waters in the wake of brexit may have their hopes crushed.

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/15..._Dorset_Fishermen_leaked_EU_document_reveals/


----------



## Elles

What about associate Eu membership, would everyone go for that?


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> What about associate Eu membership, would everyone go for that?


No


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> The EU has been made a scapegoat & loads of people fell for it. Cornwall is also going to lose out on the massive funding it gets from the EU. So many people have voted to make themselves (& us) poorer.
> Seen this about Dorsets fishermen?
> Dorset fishermen hoping to regain their waters in the wake of brexit may have their hopes crushed.
> http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/15..._Dorset_Fishermen_leaked_EU_document_reveals/


Hang down your head and cry.

So much for taking back contol of the country then.

Brexit means Brexit.....￼

Aye! And 8ull5hit means 8ull5hit!:Facepalm


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> What about associate Eu membership, would everyone go for that?


Would Labour go for that if they win the election? 
I don't think we, the public, have a say in it any more .


----------



## Elles

I don't know, it's some of the European MPs who were suggesting Europe offered it to Brits, not our lot. Where we'd have a say would be pressing for our MPs to discuss it and Brits living abroad contacting MEPs where they are maybe. It might be worth a look if expats and remainers are interested and worried about being thrown out. I don't know what's happening with it, but if petforums is anything to go on, nobody much would want it anyway. 

I thought it was interesting that some European politicians suggested offering Brits a new associate membership of Europe to ensure that those who want to are still be able to live, travel and work in Europe, but seemed to ask for nothing in return. I haven't looked that deeply into it though. I thought some petforumers might do the work for me, or already have, but the silence was deafening.


----------



## noushka05

My god, imagine how it must feel to be an EU national right now? Seems the tories _are _going to make them jump though hoops to stay here. Disgusting treatment of people. https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...-looms-over-eu-citizens-rights-to-stay-in-u-k










http://www.politico.eu.ln.is/82O5p


----------



## noushka05

Open letter to Theresa May from a British citizen living in Italy.



__ https://www.facebook.com/britishinitaly/posts/296889924097439



*News Feed*



*British in Italy*
· 21 hrs ·

Open letter to Theresa May from a British citizen living in Italy.

Dear Mrs May

It is time you told us. Do you really intend some 1.2 million of your fellow countrymen and women to be stripped of the right to work, the right to live where they have chosen, the right to have their families with them, the right to health care? Do you really want thousands of old people to be reduced to destitution as you use them as pawns in your political game?

That is what we Britons living in EU countries, and our three million European friends living in the UK, can only deduce from reports that you want Brexit to reduce us all to the status of "third country" nationals. Which means taking away the rights and freedoms of EU citizens which we legitimately acquired when we crossed the Channel to live, work, start businesses, found families and retire - never imagining that our own country might one day want to take these rights away from us.

Yes, these reports were "leaks". But two weeks have passed since they were first published and you have still not denied them. You have only said that your policies were "misrepresented", but not which ones and in which way. Meanwhile you are keeping millions of human beings in often desperate uncertainty, fearing that their lives would be upended, even destroyed. Many are suffering ill-health, depression and acute anxiety as a result.
You have said - before the "leaks" - that you want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as soon as possible. And now this.

The EU leaders have listened to us, fully understood our problems, stated their policy clearly and even invited us to comment. Their Guidelines for the negotiations declare: "Agreeing reciprocal guarantees to safeguard the status and rights … of EU and UK citizens, and their families… will be the first priority for the negotiations. Such guarantees must be effective, enforceable, non-discriminatory and comprehensive, including the right to acquire permanent residence after a continuous period of five years of legal residence. Citizens should be able to exercise their rights through smooth and simple administrative procedures." The chief EU negotiator, Michel Barnier has said he will refuse to discuss the EU's future relationship with the UK "until the 27 member states are reassured that all citizens will be treated properly and humanely".

Your government has, to be fair, at last started consultations but they have left us no wiser as to your intentions. The EU position is totally transparent. We are kept totally in the dark.

In the warped thinking of many politicians and a sizeable part of the media in Britain the issue at stake seems to be the EU citizens there who pay taxes, keep whole sections of the country's life running and are nevertheless unwanted. We, their counterparts on the Continent, are out of sight and out of mind. If we have one, our image seems to be of bankrupt builders, swilling g and t's by their swimming pools on the Costa Blanca. Not real people, working in European firms, banks or institutions, running their own businesses, teaching, trading, practising law or medicine. Not real people who for countless reasons have made their homes here, have married and are raising children whose future is now uncertain.

And, most agonising of all, not real people who have sold their homes in Britain to retire to southern Europe where life is cheaper, who are now old and often sick, and who risk losing their healthcare and seeing their British pensions frozen so they no longer keep up with inflation. Who, even in the unlikely event they could sell their homes in their recession-hit countries, could not possibly afford to resettle in the UK. Has anyone thought of them?

And to crown it all, those of us who have lived more than 15 years outside the UK are not allowed to vote. We were not allowed to vote in last June's referendum which was to affect us more than anyone else in the nation and we cannot vote in coming elections either. Your party's 2015 manifesto promised to give us back our vote for life. While our future is being decided for us, we are still waiting.

Have you thought, Mrs May, of the possibility of thousands of unemployed, homeless, old and sick Britons returning to the UK and throwing themselves on the mercy - if that is the word - of the Welfare State? And regaining their vote…?

Your mind is no doubt on the election campaign. But you also have a responsibility towards your 1.2 million fellow-countrymen and women whose futures are at stake, and the three million EU citizens living in Britain. Do you want to protect our rights or not? We need to know.

Patricia Clough


----------



## noushka05

wrong thread.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> What about associate Eu membership, would everyone go for that?


I would, and in a heartbeat.

I have no wish to retreat behind our tribal borders and wave auroch thigh bones at those across the river. They are part of my family.


----------



## Odin_cat

I would also jump at the chance of keeping Eu citizenship. Let's hope they remember us!


----------



## Arnie83

Odin_cat said:


> I would also jump at the chance of keeping Eu citizenship. Let's hope they remember us!


I don't think the right-wing press would stand for it; we'd be Enemies of the People.


----------



## Odin_cat

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think the right-wing press would stand for it; we'd be Enemies of the People.


We'd be in good company .

Those who don't want it don't have to take it. But it would be nice if those of us who still feel European are given a chance to continue.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Odin_cat said:


> We'd be in good company .
> 
> Those who don't want it don't have to take it. But it would be nice if those of us who still feel European are given a chance to continue.


Dual citizenship is possible, so why not?


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> Dual citizenship is possible, so why not?


Depends on the which countries are involved.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Depends on the which countries are involved.


Yes.


----------



## shadowmare

Arnie83 said:


> I would, and in a heartbeat.
> 
> I have no wish to retreat behind our tribal borders and wave auroch thigh bones at those across the river. They are part of my family.


Meanwhile the EU people get nothing because it seems like UK has no intention on being kind to them 
I like how EU has been mentioning all of these ideas how they could "help" those British people who want to keep their rights... meanwhile I'm still sitting waiting like a starving dog for anything from May... everything is only complicated by the fact that I cannot have a dual citizenship... so it is literally a choice between EU or U.K. for me  but hey, no one cares about this eh...


----------



## Dr Pepper

shadowmare said:


> Meanwhile the EU people get nothing because it seems like UK has no intention on being kind to them
> I like how EU has been mentioning all of these ideas how they could "help" those British people who want to keep their rights... meanwhile I'm still sitting waiting like a starving dog for anything from May... everything is only complicated by the fact that I cannot have a dual citizenship... so it is literally a choice between EU or U.K. for me  but hey, no one cares about this eh...


To be fair Mrs May (or any other politician) hasn't been in a position to say anything about definite plans regarding the EU since April 18th. Your going have to wait until we have a government in place again and then I'm sure, whoever is in power, will quickly be saying what their hopes and aspirations are.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair Mrs May (or any other politician) hasn't been in a position to say anything about definite plans regarding the EU since April 18th. Your going have to wait until we have a government in place again and then I'm sure, whoever is in power, will quickly be saying what their hopes and aspirations are.


Shame.
It should have been done already, as soon as decision on Brexit was made.
At least to assure those who are residents already. UK made the decion, up to UK to make this step first and then expect it would be reciprocated.
Part on decent terms, taking care of all that legally chose to live/ work/ study in UK.

Yesterday talked to my friend, a nurse who has been working in UK and Gibraltar for 11 years, now has no idea where she stands...

She does not want to be dependent on her employer, as she might be moving if wanted to up her qualifications...but is worried as EU national might not be allowed.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair Mrs May (or any other politician) hasn't been in a position to say anything about definite plans regarding the EU since April 18th. Your going have to wait until we have a government in place again and then I'm sure, whoever is in power, will quickly be saying what their hopes and aspirations are.


Mrs May and her sidekicks have done little _other_ than talk about Brexit since declaring the GE. And had plenty of time to make statements on stuff like this beforehand too.


----------



## Elles

It does say something about protecting eu workers in Britain and uk workers abroad and keeping Gibraltar (and others) British, as well as a mentioning Irish borders. It's a bit vague, but it is in there.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair Mrs May (or any other politician) hasn't been in a position to say anything about definite plans regarding the EU since April 18th. Your going have to wait until we have a government in place again and then I'm sure, whoever is in power, will quickly be saying what their hopes and aspirations are.


She did say in her launch speech today that you couldn't leave the EU and still be a member of the single market.

No-one in the front row hid "Norway" behind a cough ...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> It does say something about protecting eu workers in Britain and uk workers abroad and keeping Gibraltar (and others) British, as well as a mentioning Irish borders. It's a bit vague, but it is in there.


Vague?

"Staying British" will not help much if 80% of our working people lose their jobs?
If we lose our financial status and EU passporting most jobs in finance and gaming industry are gone.

With frontier queues tourism is affected too.

No answers to that...much as our Chief Minister tries to find out.

Our budget is about to lose 80% revenue and ALL EU funding.

We also have to pay to UK budget for our defence etc...

Hope your family in Gibraltar has some back up plan...


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> Shame.
> It should have been done already, as soon as decision on Brexit was made.
> At least to assure those who are residents already. UK made the decion, up to UK to make this step first and then expect it would be reciprocated.
> Part on decent terms, taking care of all that legally chose to live/ work/ study in UK.
> 
> Yesterday talked to my friend, a nurse who has been working in UK and Gibraltar for 11 years, now has no idea where she stands...
> 
> She does not want to be dependent on her employer, as she might be moving if wanted to up her qualifications...but is worried as EU national might not be allowed.


I agree, hopefully in three weeks things will start to proceed.



Jesthar said:


> Mrs May and her sidekicks have done little _other_ than talk about Brexit since declaring the GE. And had plenty of time to make statements on stuff like this beforehand too.


To be fair (again!) Mrs May spent the first however many months going to court, house of lords, back to parliament etc just to be able to give Brexit the go ahead. Then it was all going queer within parliament hence the election being called. In all fairness to all sides no one has had much of an opportunity to set out anything.



Elles said:


> It does say something about protecting eu workers in Britain and uk workers abroad and keeping Gibraltar (and others) British, as well as a mentioning Irish borders. It's a bit vague, but it is in there.


Yes, all very vague and non-committal I thought. Not sure why that surprised me!



Arnie83 said:


> She did say in her launch speech today that you couldn't leave the EU and still be a member of the single market.
> 
> No-one in the front row hid "Norway" behind a cough ...


And Mr Corbyn on Jeremy Vine said there was no reason he couldn't get a free trade deal without freedom of movement being a condition!


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair (again!) Mrs May spent the first however many months going to court, house of lords, back to parliament etc just to be able to give Brexit the go ahead.


That's being a little more than fair to May, since if she hadn't tried to bypass Parliament in the first place she wouldn't have had a problem.



Dr Pepper said:


> And Mr Corbyn on Jeremy Vine said there was no reason he couldn't get a free trade deal without freedom of movement being a condition!


May being economical with the verite doesn't make Corbyn any less of an idiot.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> May being economical with the verite doesn't make Corbyn any less of an idiot.


That's exactly what I was trying to get across in a more polite way 

If for one minute I thought Mr Corbyn could pull it off he'd get my vote in a heartbeat.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> My god, imagine how it must feel to be an EU national right now? Seems the tories _are _going to make them jump though hoops to stay here. Disgusting treatment of people. https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...-looms-over-eu-citizens-rights-to-stay-in-u-k
> .


I don´t know anyone, who does feel welcome anymore. Just talking in a different language makes them feel anyone could shout go home. No planning anymore. Some try to get a citizenship (80-page long application with lots of attachments), just in case they would be thrown out. Many take extra insurances etc. These are people with professions, educated in other countries and working in UK now. Before they loved Britain, payed their taxes and felt they belong. So May took them hostage and uses them to bargain with EU thinking that people matter more than corporations for EU. What does it tell about her and conservatives? My my, things are not good, if that is really true. Was that the aim of Brexit then? Throw EU citizens out?


----------



## Odin_cat

shadowmare said:


> Meanwhile the EU people get nothing because it seems like UK has no intention on being kind to them
> I like how EU has been mentioning all of these ideas how they could "help" those British people who want to keep their rights... meanwhile I'm still sitting waiting like a starving dog for anything from May... everything is only complicated by the fact that I cannot have a dual citizenship... so it is literally a choice between EU or U.K. for me  but hey, no one cares about this eh...


I'm so sorry. As a British migrant living in the EU, I am horrified about the way in which you and all the other EU nationals are being treated.

Regardless of what happens to my family and I, I will fight for you to have the right to self-determination.

May doesn't speak for all of us.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair (again!) Mrs May spent the first however many months going to court, house of lords, back to parliament etc just to be able to give Brexit the go ahead. Then it was all going queer within parliament hence the election being called. In all fairness to all sides no one has had much of an opportunity to set out anything.


If Mrs May hadn't tried to bypass Parliamentary procedure, there would't have been any need for all those shenanigans


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair (again!) Mrs May spent the first however many months going to court, house of lords, back to parliament etc just to be able to give Brexit the go ahead. Then it was all going queer within parliament hence the election being called. In all fairness to all sides no one has had much of an opportunity to set out anything.


Maybe if she actually had a mandate and didn't simply have to bully everyone to agree it would help. The reason this election was called wasn't because of brexit. She already had a majority. Brexit is the excuse and was initially the focus so people wouldn't actually look at her past record and achievements. Even now she is promising loads, mostly vague platitudes which mean little when looking at the realities involved.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Even now she is promising loads, mostly vague platitudes which mean little when looking at the realities involved.


Agree, so could you please point me in the direction of a party that's not doing exactly the same. Thanks.


----------



## rona

shadowmare said:


> . everything is only complicated by the fact that I cannot have a dual citizenship... so it is literally a choice between EU or U.K. for me


Why?

When did you apply?

I know two people from EU with dual citizenship


----------



## Odin_cat

rona said:


> Why?
> 
> When did you apply?
> 
> I know two people from EU with dual citizenship


The EU isn't a single country.

Austria does not allow dual citizenship. I expect that there are other countries that don't either.


----------



## rona

Odin_cat said:


> The EU isn't a single country.
> 
> Austria does not allow dual citizenship. I expect that there are other countries that don't either.


I know but EU was mentioned in the quote I had linked to. I was hoping the person I quoted could give a reason. I couldn't quote a country because they didn't


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Agree, so could you please point me in the direction of a party that's not doing exactly the same. Thanks.


Devil's in the details and we actually have the past actions of May showing she is unable to deliver. Then again she's lied right from the start, starting about why she is holding the general election.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Devil's in the details and we actually have the past actions of May showing she is unable to deliver. Then again she's lied right from the start, starting about why she is holding the general election.


Hmm, an unknown remainer and obvious labour supporter with, I presume, a law degree. Ok, that's all gospel then. Wonder what his qualifications in politics are?

Just because a bod from a third rate university makes a YouTube video doesn't mean everything they say is correct. He does have some books behind him though to make him appear very knowledgeable.


----------



## shadowmare

rona said:


> I know but EU was mentioned in the quote I had linked to. I was hoping the person I quoted could give a reason. I couldn't quote a country because they didn't


Because my country doesn't allow dual citizenship


----------



## DaisyBluebell

Dr Pepper said:


> Hmm, an unknown remainer and obvious labour supporter with, I presume, a law degree. Ok, that's all gospel then. Wonder what his qualifications in politics are?
> 
> Just because a bod from a third rate university makes a YouTube video doesn't mean everything they say is correct. He does have some books behind him though to make him appear very knowledgeable.


LOL


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Hmm, an unknown remainer and obvious labour supporter with, I presume, a law degree. Ok, that's all gospel then. Wonder what his qualifications in politics are?
> 
> Just because a bod from a third rate university makes a YouTube video doesn't mean everything they say is correct. He does have some books behind him though to make him appear very knowledgeable.


In otherwords, you don't like what he says as it conflicts with what you want.

He is an expert witness before the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee and the House of Lords European Union Committee which obviously isn't of relevance. He's acted as an external advisor to Government departments on important developments - including discussions about the enactment of the European Union Act 2011 as well as the ongoing Review of the Balance of Competences Between the UK and the EU but again we can ignore that. In fact we can ignore experts if they don't bend over backwards to support our own prejudices can't we


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> In otherwords, you don't like what he says as it conflicts with what you want.
> 
> He is an expert witness before the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee and the House of Lords European Union Committee which obviously isn't of relevance. He's acted as an external advisor to Government departments on important developments - including discussions about the enactment of the European Union Act 2011 as well as the ongoing Review of the Balance of Competences Between the UK and the EU but again we can ignore that. In fact we can ignore experts if they don't bend over backwards to support our own prejudices can't we


Is he, fair enough, you'd think he'd be working at a more respected university. To be honest I didn't watch much as he's speaking is so monotone and unengaging, I'd imagine he's a pretty poor lecturer.

By the way I have no prejudices, I just hope whoever wins the general election is actually allowed to get on with Brexit without the remainers constantly complaining and trying to derail it, now there's a prejudice.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> is actually allowed to get on with Brexit without the remainers constantly complaining and trying to derail it, now there's a prejudice.


No it's called democracy and making decisions based on facts  Something May finds annoying wanting to bypass it as much as possible prefering empty promises and soundbites.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> Is he, fair enough, you'd think he'd be working at a more respected university. To be honest I didn't watch much as he's speaking is so monotone and unengaging, I'd imagine he's a pretty poor lecturer.


Is there anyone from whom you WILL accept a viewpoint that differs from your own? Or do you just have a sliding scale of disqualifying criteria:

Don't know them -> Not Qualified -> Qualified but unengaging -> I don't like their hairstyle


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> Is there anyone from whom you WILL accept a viewpoint that differs from your own?


Here's the difference, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about anything. I'm just responding to the constant barrage of mostly pointless videos, graphs, tweets and Facebook posts that remainers think will persuade the leavers we were wrong. As I said before I hope come post election, whoever wins will be allowed to get on with Brexit which was after all democratically and legally voted in favour of by a vast majority.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> voted in favour of by a vast majority.


37% of the electorate.. voting for empty promises and lies.. in a non-binding referendum..

Can't believe you actually believe that. Actually, yes I can, it fits what you want rather than the reality.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dr Pepper said:


> Here's the difference, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about anything. I'm just responding to the constant barrage of mostly pointless videos, graphs, tweets and Facebook posts that remainers think will persuade the leavers we were wrong. As I said before I hope come post election, whoever wins will be allowed to get on with Brexit which was after all democratically and legally voted in favour of by a vast majority.


I have never wanted to change anyone mind what is done, is done, but I still have the right to say, that I think it's a very big mistake to leave but "Hay Ho" we'll just have to live it.

We have no choice, but to hope that who ever wins will get us a good deal, not that I think it will happen if TM wins.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> 37% of the electorate.. voting for empty promises and lies.. in a non-binding referendum..
> 
> Can't believe you actually believe that. Actually, yes I can, it fits what you want rather than the reality.


Who mentioned the referendum? Democracy has been well and truly carried out, first with the referendum which then the house of lords and then parliament considered and both, by a not insignificant majority, voted in favour of. How much more democratic could leaving the EU be?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Happy Paws said:


> I have never wanted to change anyone mind what is done, is done, but I still have the right to say, that I think it's a very big mistake to leave but "Hay Ho" we'll just have to live it.
> 
> We have no choice, but to hope that who ever wins will get us a good deal, not that I think it will happen if TM wins.


I agree, the problem starts when those in favour are constantly being called anything for racists, thick and uneducated from those against. And then shown constant, usually unqualified media "backing up" why they are right.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Who mentioned the referendum? Democracy has been well and truly carried out, first with the referendum which then the house of lords and then parliament considered and both, by a not insignificant majority, voted in favour of. How much more democratic could leaving the EU be?


So, house of lords amendments being ignored. House of Lords being threatened with being disbanded if they didn't agree. Parliament not representing the population but the dictatorship of May...



Dr Pepper said:


> I agree, the problem starts when those in favour are constantly being called anything for racists, thick and uneducated from those against. And then shown constant, usually unqualified media "backing up" why they are right.


Unqualified.. who are you kidding. You simply decide to dismiss anything which shows anything contrary to what you want. On the flip side, people are unable to provide evidence based reasoning to leave.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So, house of lords amendments being ignored. House of Lords being threatened with being disbanded if they didn't agree. Parliament not representing the population but the dictatorship of May...
> 
> Unqualified.. who are you kidding. You simply decide to dismiss anything which shows anything contrary to what you want. On the flip side, people are unable to provide evidence based reasoning to leave.


Ok, so you don't believe in democracy unless it goes your way. Fair enough.

Second point, I couldn't care less about your pointless media and "experts" to try and show how right you are and how wrong we are (which NO one knows at this point anyway). I voted leave and that's what's happening, so even if you could convince me otherwise it'd be pointless. Leavers don't have to provide evidence for anything because we are not trying to change anyone's mind.


----------



## rona

shadowmare said:


> Because my country doesn't allow dual citizenship


Not this country then?

Why don't you take it up with your own government?


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> Here's the difference, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about anything. I'm just responding to the constant barrage of mostly pointless videos, graphs, tweets and Facebook posts that remainers think will persuade the leavers we were wrong. As I said before I hope come post election, whoever wins will be allowed to get on with Brexit which was after all democratically and legally voted in favour of by a vast majority.


Nice sidestep. 

Not wanting to change anyone's mind has no bearing on the quality of a source. So, the question remains - if you feel the viewpoint of someone qualified to speak on a subject may be dismissed because you feel their delivery is dull, under what conditions will you accept the observations of someone who has a different viewpoint to you?


----------



## Elles

The majority of people who voted, voted to leave the Eu, done deal. There were plenty of reasons to vote out and plenty to vote stay. I rarely link proof of what I think, because I want to read what ordinary people think, not always links and memes and I'm one of the ordinary people. The thread is surely long enough for reasons to be have been thrashed out by now. Even if someone agrees with someone else, they can still point out that their delivery is dull and they switched off. It happens.

Instead of wishing the vote went the other way, imo, the remainers need to be looking at what's important for them and try to get that across and promoted outside of the Eu now. So, for example, if you feel workers' rights will be eroded when we leave, get voting and campaigning to stop it happening. Try to get the best result, out of what you think is a bad result?

What do people want to see happen once we're outside of the Eu?


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## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> Nice sidestep.
> 
> Not wanting to change anyone's mind has no bearing on the quality of a source. So, the question remains - if you feel the viewpoint of someone qualified to speak on a subject may be dismissed because you feel their delivery is dull, under what conditions will you accept the observations of someone who has a different viewpoint to you?


Simply if you are qualified or not if you want people to watch and hear what you've got say make it engaging. Tell us from the off what your experience and qualifications are so we know exactly who we a listening to. As an example, take The Last Leg, a comedy show that constantly bashes Brexit and the conservative's. I watch it and listen to them because it's funny and engaging even though I disagree with most of their opinions on the subject. I'm not saying whoever that chap was in the video should do a stand up routine but he as sure as hell needs a few lessons in public speaking. I know two extremes but I hope they get my point across, I'll listen to anyone if they are capable of putting their case in the right way.


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## leashedForLife

*Dr Pepper* said,

..._qualified or not, if you want people to watch & hear what you've got [to] say, make it engaging.

Tell us from the off what your experience & qualifications are, so we know exactly who we [are] listening to.

As an example, take The Last Leg, a comedy show that constantly bashes Brexit & conservatives. I watch... because it's funny & engaging, even though I disagree with most of their opinions on the subject.
I'm not saying whoever that chap was in the video should do a stand-up routine, but he as sure as hell needs a few lessons in public speaking.
I know -- two extremes -- but I hope they get my point across; *I'll listen to anyone,* *if they are capable of putting their point across in the right way.*_
_________________________________________
.
.
Where are U holding auditions?... :Meh Please post a link for the on-line application, so that busy Govt officials & economists, bankers, etc, can get their forms in promptly.
.
The above reminds me of this poster from my college years -
.








.
.
.


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## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The majority of people who voted, voted to leave the Eu, done deal. There were plenty of reasons to vote out and plenty to vote stay. I rarely link proof of what I think, because I want to read what ordinary people think, not always links and memes and I'm one of the ordinary people. The thread is surely long enough for reasons to be have been thrashed out by now. Even if someone agrees with someone else, they can still point out that their delivery is dull and they switched off. It happens.
> 
> Instead of wishing the vote went the other way, imo, *the remainers need to be looking at what's important for them and try to get that across and promoted outside of the Eu* now. So, for example, if you feel workers' rights will be eroded when we leave, get voting and campaigning to stop it happening. Try to get the best result, out of what you think is a bad result?
> 
> What do people want to see happen once we're outside of the Eu?


I think you're quite right, except for those, like me, for whom what was - and is - important is not breaking up a supranational organisation into its constituent tribal parts.

I happen to think that economically Brexit is a bad idea, but whether that turns out to be the case or not there is no changing what was, for me, the overridingly important factor that we were part of something bigger than the territory defined by our borders.

As for what I want to see for the UK when we leave, I have to say I don't really care. The apparent majority of people who occupy this particular part of the world seem to feel they are a tribe apart - reinforced in this GE campaign by the number of times I've heard that we should pay for this or that by taking money from an overseas aid budget which is, albeit imperfectly, used to improve the lives of some of the neediest human beings on the planet - and that's not a view I will ever agree with nor have any respect for.


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## cheekyscrip

The deal is not DONE. But we are to discover more and more how we will be affected WHEN it is done.
Many lies that led people to vote Leave are already exposed.
Predictions dismissed as Project Fear are becoming FACTS 
Devaluation, rising inflation, falling wages , rising national debts, pensioners being poorer...
Financial sector moving abroad.
No point of saying we have to get on with it.
No. We can stop it, simply admitting we were lied to.
We do not have to follow May and those who pull her strings for their own benefit.

So far Brexit will benefit Russia, China, India but not UK and not EU.

We do not need to carry on to damage our economy to spite EU.


Why...???
Is it really "will of the people" to impoverish themselves and diminish their country?


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## Goblin

Elles said:


> Instead of wishing the vote went the other way, imo, the remainers need to be looking at what's important for them and try to get that across and promoted outside of the Eu now. So, for example, if you feel workers' rights will be eroded when we leave, get voting and campaigning to stop it happening. Try to get the best result, out of what you think is a bad result?


To do that simple things need to happen.

Have someone who actually has a clue about the realities of leaving
Have someone who is prepared to actually prepare the UK for what is ahead rather than blame the EU for unrealistic expectations not happening.
Isn't it time people were told the truth about the future?

I forget.. Brexit is brexit, Strong and stable leadership, No deal is better than a bad deal..


----------



## Guest

Dr Pepper said:


> I couldn't care less about your pointless media and "experts" to try and show how right you are and how wrong we are (which NO one knows at this point anyway). I voted leave and that's what's happening, so even if you could convince me otherwise it'd be pointless. Leavers don't have to provide evidence for anything because we are not trying to change anyone's mind.


That pretty much sums what I feared leave voters were actually thinking.
1) They didn´t care of _pointless_ media nor experts. Information was provided By UKIP, Sun in the form of slogans and lies.
2) NO one knows what is going to happen? Shouldn´t you have thought about pros and CONS of Brexit before voting and only after careful analysis and discussion you should have made the decision? I´d call this really poor and arrogant way to make decusions. Blimey, I plan my weekend shopping better,
3) Leavers don´´t have to provide evidence for anything, because we are ot trying to change anyone´s mind. Really. You only try to change everyones lives and you feel you don´t have provide evidence. To me that also is really arrogant, idiotic and cruel, as it could seriously damage the lives of the most vulnerable and weakest. What kind of people are you, as that sounded you are proud of that? Maybe it was just expressed in a bad way and in real life you are not cruel, just a bit ignorant and tired.


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## Zaros

Source: "The future of Gibraltar is now at stake in Brexit negotiations....

Well now, that's hardly surprising since I reckon the leave camp would prove to be more than happy to hand it over because, well, after all, evidence shows that they wanted less monkeys on British territory. :Wacky


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## shadowmare

rona said:


> Not this country then?
> 
> Why don't you take it up with your own government?


Why? Why an EU country has to change its laws when it is U.K. and leave voters who put me and others into such position? Ehy does EU have to be responsible for sorting out this pile of crap?
Why is it that My life getting obvious effects of Your vote Rona and yet I have to go and take it up with a country that had no part in this? 
I will remind you that a huge part of the population who voted to leave will not experience any immediate direct effects to their lives, yet those who are being effected or will be effected didn't even have a say in this situation. So while the 70yo Betsy from down south continues watching Great British Bake Off, I have to sit and try to decide which of my rights I want to sacrifice. Do I want to stay European or do I want to take on a passport that has no connection to who I am and the further we're going into this chaos, the more alien to me is the mindset that is driving it.


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## Zaros

shadowmare said:


> Why? Why an EU country has to change its laws when it is U.K. and leave voters who put me and others into such position? Ehy does EU have to be responsible for sorting out this pile of crap?
> Why is it that My life getting obvious effects of Your vote Rona and yet I have to go and take it up with a country that had no part in this?.


Is the answer, because Britain likes nothing better than to discharge a responsibility onto another?


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## rona

shadowmare said:


> Why? Why an EU country has to change its laws when it is U.K. and leave voters who put me and others into such position? Ehy does EU have to be responsible for sorting out this pile of crap?
> Why is it that My life getting obvious effects of Your vote Rona and yet I have to go and take it up with a country that had no part in this?
> I will remind you that a huge part of the population who voted to leave will not experience any immediate direct effects to their lives, yet those who are being effected or will be effected didn't even have a say in this situation. So while the 70yo Betsy from down south continues watching Great British Bake Off, I have to sit and try to decide which of my rights I want to sacrifice. Do I want to stay European or do I want to take on a passport that has no connection to who I am and the further we're going into this chaos, the more alien to me is the mindset that is driving it.


You can stay European and still live in this country, surely?

You just have Uk residency instead of dual nationality

You do know that I couldn't move to your country and have Dual nationality don't you?


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> You can stay European and still live in this country, surely? You just have Uk residency instead of dual nationality
> You do know that I couldn't move to your country and have Dual nationality don't you?


I´m afraid there is no "surely" as May uses everything you need to be able to have a life as something you can negotiate with. Like health care or right to own your property etc. UK residency doesn´t mean anything, if you take May's ideas of Brexit for real. It used to, Britain used to be really international and cool, and now, just another small minded country, which doesn´t like the idea of having other nationals living in the country. I am sorry, but that is how I feel. You lost your greatness by Brexit.


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## rona

My BIL is French and sees no issues, but then his country doesn't mind him having dual nationality


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## Zaros

MrsZee said:


> I´m afraid there is no "surely" as May uses everything you need to be able to have a life as something you can negotiate with.


People = Pawns

Life is a chessboard and, for the most part, you're not even a player.


----------



## shadowmare

Zaros said:


> Is the answer, because Britain likes nothing better than to discharge a responsibility onto another?


Oh definitely... I've accepted my life in limbo at the moment and started imagining moving back to mainland and what country i'd prefer to go to/ looking into where my career has better prospects etc. I'm lucky that I speak 4 languages and am a person who easily adapts to life in new place, new people and culture... I gained all of that while growing up in Europe. One thing I'm stillhoping though. Whoever will win the next election, I hope there will be some major changes for all age groups and economic statuses. So far the leave campers have been telling the remainers to stop moaning and start working together to make Brexit a success, forgetting that the people who are moaning are doing it because they know they will be affected one way or another. Well, I'm hoping that EVERYONE will have to deal with something. Wage cuts, pension squeeze, benefits, NHS... and I hope any person who voted leave and now will suddenly have to deal with an actual consequence attempts to moan - will choke on their words. Because of we're all in it together, then we fckin are in it together. If I have to make sacrifices, so do you.


----------



## rona

shadowmare said:


> Oh definitely... I've accepted my life in limbo at the moment and started imagining moving back to mainland and what country i'd prefer to go to/ looking into where my career has better prospects etc. I'm lucky that I speak 4 languages and am a person who easily adapts to life in new place, new people and culture... I gained all of that while growing up in Europe. One thing I'm stillhoping though. Whoever will win the next election, I hope there will be some major changes for all age groups and economic statuses. So far the leave campers have been telling the remainers to stop moaning and start working together to make Brexit a success, forgetting that the people who are moaning are doing it because they know they will be affected one way or another. Well, I'm hoping that EVERYONE will have to deal with something. Wage cuts, pension squeeze, benefits, NHS... and I hope any person who voted leave and now will suddenly have to deal with an actual consequence attempts to moan - will choke on their words. Because of we're all in it together, then we fckin are in it together. If I have to make sacrifices, so do you.


Another who wishes harm on this country and the people in it eh?


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> I don´t know anyone, who does feel welcome anymore. Just talking in a different language makes them feel anyone could shout go home. No planning anymore. Some try to get a citizenship (80-page long application with lots of attachments), just in case they would be thrown out. Many take extra insurances etc. These are people with professions, educated in other countries and working in UK now. Before they loved Britain, payed their taxes and felt they belong. So May took them hostage and uses them to bargain with EU thinking that people matter more than corporations for EU. What does it tell about her and conservatives? My my, things are not good, if that is really true. Was that the aim of Brexit then? Throw EU citizens out?


I honestly cant believe we've come to this Mrs Zee. We used to be such a forward looking, tolerant country. The tories are now so right wing they are ukip in all but name. A government completely without morals only representing the interests of big business, the media barons & a bunch of billionaire donars. I feel so sorry for EU nationals who have made this country their home, cared for us, worked in the fields etc

This is a Jeremy Hunt quote. What a disgrace. As I've before - not in my name. I've played no part in this shamefulness. I know migrants are a benefit to our economy - & to our society.










On a personal level I'm actually very afraid of leaving the EU & the tories winning the GE. I think of what the future holds for my children. No NHS, fracking, environmental degradation, society in tatters. We are going to be totally at the mercy of a bunch of greedy, morally bankrupt sociopaths.

We NEED EU workers but people fell for the lies & hate peddled by the politicians and their billionaire mates who own most of our media.

Look at the state of this!


----------



## shadowmare

rona said:


> You can stay European and still live in this country, surely?
> 
> You just have Uk residency instead of dual nationality
> 
> You do know that I couldn't move to your country and have Dual nationality don't you?


I'm already a resident. I lived here for over 5 years and through EEA I get an automatic permanent residency and do not need to apply for anything unless I want to bring in a partner with a visa or want to apply for a British passport.
While UK is in the EU you wouldn't need a dual nationality in my country to begin with. If you'd still want to stay there in 2019 then you could take it up with your government for dragging you out of EU and making you decide in whether you want to stay living and working in Lithuania or having to move back to U.K. The difference would've been that you still could've voted in the referendum. I didn't have that right.


----------



## Zaros

shadowmare said:


> Oh definitely... I've accepted my life in limbo at the moment and started imagining moving back to mainland and what country i'd prefer to go to/ looking into where my career has better prospects etc. I'm lucky that I speak 4 languages and am a person who easily adapts to life in new place, new people and culture... I gained all of that while growing up in Europe. One thing I'm stillhoping though. Whoever will win the next election, I hope there will be some major changes for all age groups and economic statuses. So far the leave campers have been telling the remainers to stop moaning and start working together to make Brexit a success, forgetting that the people who are moaning are doing it because they know they will be affected one way or another. Well, I'm hoping that EVERYONE will have to deal with something. Wage cuts, pension squeeze, benefits, NHS... and I hope any person who voted leave and now will suddenly have to deal with an actual consequence attempts to moan - will choke on their words. *Because* of *we're all in it together,* then we fckin are in it together. If I have to make sacrifices, so do you.


Except, of course, for those who initially scuttled the ship will have a lifeboat to take them to safety.

And there aŕen't enough lifeboats. Not enough by half!



rona said:


> Another who wishes harm on this country and the people in it eh?


Why do you constantly attempt to twist words Rona?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Another who wishes harm on this country and the people in it eh?


You're thinking of the tories, Rona.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> I honestly cant believe we've come to this Mrs Zee. We used to be such a forward looking, tolerant country. The tories are now so right wing they are ukip in all but name. A government completely without morals only representing the interests of big business, the media barons & a bunch of billionaire donars. I feel so sorry for EU nationals who have made this country their home, cared for us, worked in the fields etc
> This is a Jeremy Hunt quote. What a disgrace. As I've before - not in my name. I've played no part in this shamefulness. I know migrants are a benefit to our economy - & to our society.
> View attachment 311291
> 
> On a personal level I'm actually very afraid of leaving the EU & the tories winning the GE. I think of what the future holds for my children. No NHS, fracking, environmental degradation, society in tatters. We are going to be totally at the mercy of a bunch of greedy, morally bankrupt sociopaths.
> We NEED EU workers but people fell for the lies & hate peddled by the politicians and their billionaire mates who own most of our media.
> Look at the state of this!
> View attachment 311289


I agree, it is really sad that you are losing the "Greatness" of Britain. When I first joined PF I remember a thread that made me think you are all so cool: It was about a family, who came from a third world country, and the person asked what should she do? Most of the answers were: Welcome them, how nice, etc Not a single really racist comment on PF. I really admired you. And now it´s like you are going backwards, approaching a certain black time in the world´s history, where racism tried to rule the world.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> You're thinking of the tories, Rona.


----------



## shadowmare

rona said:


> Another who wishes harm on this country and the people in it eh?


Why do you think that someone should be exempt from contributing to the Brexit fee?? There wasn't a drop of empathy in your message telling me to "take it up" with my government when I told you of my problems. Why should I be expected to be any different towards Betsy down south?
Or do you think the nasty little immigrants should be the one to pay? The same way Trump expected the Mexicans to pay for the wall? 
As for "this country" - my country is Scotland, thank you very much. As much as I don't care about the politics of England vs Scotland, it is here I lived 9 years so far, I want to stay here, and the only welcoming and reassuring words for me came from the Scottish politics.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Another who wishes harm on this country and the people in it eh?


The other side of that coin, of course, is that those who voted Leave had little or no thought for anyone other than those in this country.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> The other side of that coin, of course, is that those who voted Leave had little or no thought for anyone other than those in this country.


Well yes, as the majority who were eligible to vote reside in the UK what would you think they would be voting for? A few thousand on Gibralta? The million odd living in the EU or the sixty odd million living in the UK? Whilst those minorities might have factored in our thoughts they obviously wouldn't have been a overriding factor.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> I agree, it is really sad that you are losing the "Greatness" of Britain. When I first joined PF I remember a thread that made me think you are all so cool: It was about a family, who came from a third world country, and the person asked what should she do? Most of the answers were: Welcome them, how nice, etc Not a single really racist comment on PF. I really admired you. And now it´s like you are going backwards, approaching a certain black time in the world´s history, where racism tried to rule the world.


Oh most definitely, its more like 'Hate Britain' then Great Britain now. I'm afraid racism is mainstream over here thanks to the right wing media & the xenophobic language used by this government. We are going backwards, we're losing all that progress we'd made to build a decent society. And how the tories must have diminished our standing in the world. We'll be an insignificant speck on the map soon. In one way i'll be glad about that - It might knock the giant chip of the shoulders of those delusional souls who somehow believe this country is superior to others. And the years of crippling austerity we face might make them finally wake up - albeit too late!

This used to be us.










Drs & Nurses from the EU don't like the country Britain has become. One in 10 doctors come from the EU. What happens to our already crumbling understaffed NHS if they leave? (or get thrown out!)

This is us now -






(& thank you, I really admire you too @MrsZee x)


----------



## Elles

The Daily Mail 10 years ago pretty much explains why many people voted to leave

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-426827/What-Britain-HADNT-joined-EU.html

http://www.historyandpolicy.org/pol...-case-for-brexit-lessons-from-1960s-and-1970s

Also when Eastern European countries (Poland?) joined the Eu in 2004, France, Italy and Germany restricted numbers entering their countries until 2011, (Germany for sure, not sure when the other 2 ended) when their moritorium ended and they had to allow free movement according to Eu rules. Were they racist and xenophobic?

Our Labour government allowed unrestricted access from day one, expecting around 40,000 to move here for better wages and conditions (most didn't claim benefits), but the numbers were over 1m and the country wasn't prepared. Now with people seeing Eastern European criminals, homeless and beggars reportedly on our streets, they want them gone, but don't believe the Eu would agree to our restricting our borders. I don't think most people know that Germany, Italy and France did and we are told that due to Eu law it would be impossible.

Even ukip didn't want every European kicked out of Britain. Their manifesto suggested all working here already should have the right to stay, but then an Australian style points system brought in. They also mentioned offering spaces for refugees, it wasn't build a wall.

No one wants all Europeans kicked out and all Brits brought back. It's not going to happen imo and I hope that Ireland and Gibraltar will continue pretty much business as usual once negotiations get under way. It's the first thing every party including those in Europe want sorted as a priority. We are leaving Europe, we don't even know if the milk was spilled yet, or who is going to be responsible for putting the lid on the bottle. I feel very sad that people are being made to panic over this delay in establishing where ordinary people stand. We're not all racist or xenophobes, even if we voted to leave. Most ordinary people aren't. Maybe it's where I live, if everyone else is so pessimistic.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I don't think most people know that Germany, Italy and France did and we are told that due to Eu law it would be impossible.


Maybe you don't listen other than to people like May and the blame EU propaganda 

EU rules state free movement does have restrictions. Longer than 3 months you have to be employed or be able to financially support yourself (including medical costs) to be able to stay. Countries like Germany and France actually use the EU rather than blame the EU and winning when they try to enforce the rules and are taken to the european court of justice. There's a great difference between "labelling all immigrants" as bad and simply using allowed rules and insisting they are followed.



> Even ukip didn't want every European kicked out of Britain. Their manifesto suggested all working here already should have the right to stay, but then an Australian style points system brought in. They also mentioned offering spaces for refugees, it wasn't build a wall.


Ah the good old Australian point system which Boris never mentioned has already been tried in the UK and was found not to be suitable. Stirring up hatred and labels is not excused by a scrap of paper saying "wasn't us".



> We are leaving Europe, we don't even know if the milk was spilled yet, or who is going to be responsible for putting the lid on the bottle.


People didn't have a clue what they were voting for in other words. Of course you do realise article 50 is still reversible.. not that people are being told that either are they.


----------



## Elles

I only mention ukip as they were considered the most extreme anti eu party, yet even they didn't want to kick everyone out, so hopefully that's of some comfort. Article 50 is only reversible if politicians want to reverse it and they don't. Article 50 or no, we are leaving unless lib dems get a big say and push for a second vote and even then it will probably still be leave. I think we're going, just wish they'd hurry up and get gone with it.  Less than 3 weeks to the GE.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Well yes, as the majority who were eligible to vote reside in the UK what would you think they would be voting for? A few thousand on Gibralta? The million odd living in the EU or the sixty odd million living in the UK? Whilst those minorities might have factored in our thoughts they obviously wouldn't have been a overriding factor.


No, I was thinking of the whole of the human family, for whom I think the Brexit vote was a sad backward step.

It's instructive that your answer restricted the alternatives only to members of the UK tribe.


----------



## Arnie83

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ies-rethink-plan-leave-single-market-trade-eu

A letter from German business leaders suggests that the UK join EFTA during a transition period.

Seems like a good idea to me, but I can't see the Brexiteers going for it.

We would have left the EU - Norway, for example, are EFTA members but not EU members - but the Tories' interpretation of 'leave' goes further than that so there will be a lot of opposition. That's a shame, because the alternative may well be the cliff with WTO rules at the bottom of it.


----------



## noushka05

Given that we already had control of our borders & sovereignty, has anyone told us yet what the benefits of leaving the EU are? I might have missed it.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Given that we already had control of our borders & sovereignty, has anyone told us yet what the benefits of leaving the EU are? I might have missed it.
> 
> View attachment 311376


Details, details, details.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> No, I was thinking of the whole of the human family, for whom I think the Brexit vote was a sad backward step.
> 
> It's instructive that your answer restricted the alternatives only to members of the UK tribe.


Nope, your still not making sense as it appears you are saying we should have voted remain for the good of the EU even though we believe it to be to the detriment of our country?

If that's not what your saying apologies, but that's the way I read it.


----------



## Elles

Most of the list we could have done ourselves and better and we will so long as we don't vote in a conservative government on a landslide. Too much power is never good.


----------



## Calvine

shadowmare said:


> and I hope any person who voted leave and now will suddenly have to deal with an actual consequence attempts to moan - will choke on their words.


Thanks for that...but I'm sure we will all pull thro'.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Elles said:


> Most of the list we could have done ourselves and better and we will so long as we don't vote in a conservative government on a landslide. Too much power is never good.


That's the problem with the remain camp, they see the EU as the all knowing and great without whom we would have been destitute decades ago.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> That's the problem with the remain camp, they see the EU as the all knowing and great without whom we would have been destitute decades ago.


Far from it if you look through the posts. To improve a system you work to change it from within, not storm off in a huff, especially when you provide no reasoning to do so which are based in facts. Still no advantages to leaving I notice to counter the negatives.


----------



## Elles

That was a reason. That a democratically voted British government would have done better. There are still animal welfare issues for example that the Eu block on every turn. We did ban foxhunting, the Spanish haven't touched bull fighting, their government boost it with money. You want to be part of a gang who torture bulls for entertainment? 
Even if the witch of Westminster brings back foxhunting, we'll ban it again and do better next time.

France and Germany at least, want a European super state with a European army and it's steadily heading that way, despite the uk and NATO being against it. The Eu is getting too big for its boots and the plan was to cause its collapse, or at least make it sit up and notice, by standing up and leaving. The English/British have never been thought of as European. 

The only advantage in staying in was to work from the inside. Good luck with that. And ease of movement. Even out we'll get something on that. We don't need to be part of Korea or China to pressure them into changing attitudes and social change, we don't need to be part of the Eu either. Leaving let them know that the British People aren't happy with them and no longer want to pay to support them. We want New Zealand lamb and to swap with Canada and Australia, not Romania. We can keep the money and pay our own universities, not go via the Eu, paying them for the privilege of having them decide who gets some and who doesn't. We want home rule.

And we're probably getting Theresa May, though hopefully without the landslide she expects. We already have a Queen of England and she's called Elizabeth.

We'll work something out over Gib and Ireland. We've left the Eu, not Europe.

I can see both sides, we went the side of out. It's no use constantly complaining about it and having a go at people who voted to leave. It's done now.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> That was a reason. That a democratically voted British government would have done better. There are still animal welfare issues for example that the Eu block on every turn. We did ban foxhunting, the Spanish haven't touched bull fighting, their government boost it with money. You want to be part of a gang who torture bulls for entertainment?
> Even if the witch of Westminster brings back foxhunting, we'll ban it again and do better next time.


So you mean the way the UK blocked the banning of neonicotinoids by the EU as part of the EU democratic process. You mean the way the government decided to ignore environmental restrictions on building another runway at heathrow despite the surrounds already breaking EU pollution rules.



> France and Germany at least, want a European super state with a European army and it's steadily heading that way, despite the uk and NATO being against it.


So provide evidence and facts as to this. Maybe you mean something like https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/ but that doesn't match what you are saying. Closer cooperation does not mean EU army. Yes it's been raised but rejected by the EU. It's a democracy after all, not run by any one country.



> The only advantage in staying in was to work from the inside.


Strange how you ignore economic gains as well as all the other advantages which have been posted again and again. Still wating for advantages which actually stand up to evidence and facts. We've never stopped having NZ lamb, indeed it's easier trade DUE to the EU.



> We can keep the money and pay our own universities, not go via the Eu, paying them for the privilege of having them decide who gets some and who doesn't.


Wonder how many scientists and universities you can find who back leaving the EU due to the advantages it gives them in terms of not just funding but students and research opportunities. It's not after all, simply money values.



> We want home rule.


Never lost it.



> It's done now.


It's not a done deal. Even when it is, people had 40+ years complaining about being in... guess what..


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Nope, your still not making sense as it appears you are saying we should have voted remain for the good of the EU even though we believe it to be to the detriment of our country?
> 
> If that's not what your saying apologies, but that's the way I read it.


I can understand people voting leave if they did think that remaining was to the detriment of the country (though I have never heard any convincing arguments to that effect).

It was those who voted leave for purely tribal reasons - not wanting foreign influence whether good, bad or neutral - that I have an issue with. The greater good, in my opinion, does not involve a reinforcement or reinstatement of boundaries but a blurring of them, and that consideration was completely ignored.

Indeed, the attitude now in some cases is that the terms of leaving don't even matter, since it is the leaving itself that is the important thing, whether those terms are detrimental or not. They are not even interested in having a vote on whether the negotiated terms are acceptable. They don't care; they just want out.

That confirms, to my mind, the insular, tribal mindset that I find very depressing.


----------



## Elles

It's all speculation and theory on both sides. We can't know what would have happened had we not joined the Eu. Clearly there are people who stand very firmly on either side and you're one in favour. Personally I don't care what people who feel advantaged by the Eu think (universities), or those who feel disadvantaged by the Eu think (fisheries) There are reasons for both sides of the fence. Sorry you don't think so. 

Out is a done deal, unless lib dems get their say and if you think that's going to happen, your crystal ball is probably broken, the possibility is so remote. Unless we get some sort of coalition. People in the uk aren't really voting on brexit now. Theyre voting on personalities or manifestos. Conservative and Labour have both said there'll be no second referendum, so I doubt there will. It's now down to voting for the party we think will do right by us I think.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> That's the problem with the remain camp, they see the EU as the all knowing and great without whom we would have been destitute decades ago.


It's old ground of course, but if you can find one quote - just one will do - where a 'remainer' said that the EU was not in need of reform then I'll eat my hat.


----------



## Elles

Once we're out of the Eu we will know to put the blame for the bad as well as the good squarely on the shoulders of our own government and use our votes to do something about it. One day I hope we'll get PR. I believe it would be better. Could be wrong though, it's just speculation.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> It's old ground of course, but if you can find one quote - just one will do - where a 'remainer' said* that the EU was not in need of reform* then I'll eat my hat.


I don't think I ever said that, I just think we were better off staying in and reforming EU, rather than just have a strop and leaving.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws said:


> I don't think I ever said that, I just think we were better off staying in and reforming EU, rather than just have a strop and leaving.


And others thought it would be better all round if we left. It would make a point and we could do our own thing and become an aspirational example from the outside, rather than a thorn in the side from the inside.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> And others thought it would be better all round if we left. It would make a point and we could do our own thing and become an aspirational example from the outside, rather than a thorn in the side from the inside.


Who said we would be a thorn in anyone's side, other countries are challenging things all the time, it's just that the UK press don't cover it. I doubt anyone calls them a thorn.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> the Spanish haven't touched bull fighting,


At least UK no longer subsidises it (or so I read) so that's a step in the right direction. It's not just the bullfighting, there are other things they do for ''a fun time'' with bulls. Such as wrapping petrol-soaked cloth around their horns, setting fire to them and watching them run off in terror.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Details, details, details.


:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

has this been mentioned here?
Lib dems are pledging to keep the UK in the EU .

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...emocrats-live-policy-stay-leave-a7103186.html
The Liberal Democrats will stand at the next general election on a platform of derailing Brexit and keeping Britain in the European Union, the party has announced.

Leader Tim Farron said on Saturday night that he would be "clear and unequivocal" with voters that if elected it would set aside the referendum result and keep Britain in the EU.

He said the referendum result amounted to a "howl of anger" at politicians and that the election of a liberal government would be a way of registering a change of heart by the electorate


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> has this been mentioned here?
> Lib dems are pledging to keep the UK in the EU .
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...emocrats-live-policy-stay-leave-a7103186.html
> The Liberal Democrats will stand at the next general election on a platform of derailing Brexit and keeping Britain in the European Union, the party has announced.
> 
> Leader Tim Farron said on Saturday night that he would be "clear and unequivocal" with voters that if elected it would set aside the referendum result and keep Britain in the EU.
> 
> He said the referendum result amounted to a "howl of anger" at politicians and that the election of a liberal government would be a way of registering a change of heart by the electorate


I was a little confused then I found the link's dated June 2016!

From how I understand it at the present time the Lib Dems have pledged a second referendum on the trade deal (if any is reached) with the option to accept or reject it then remaining in the EU in the case of a reject vote.


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong good job you noticed!

this is the from the BBC . 17/5/17 its still confusing ! 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39942573
Lib Dem leader Tim Farron has said "people not politicians" should have the final say over the terms of Brexit.

Launching his party's manifesto, he said Brexit would have an impact "for decades to come" and the public should have the right to decide whether to go ahead with it in another referendum.

Leaving the EU single market was a "time bomb" which could "take down the NHS and schools" with it, he warned.

He told party supporters in London that the Lib Dems would not "roll over".

The Lib Dems' promise of a vote on the final Brexit deal, the centrepiece of its general election offer, would include an option to remain in the EU.


----------



## Odin_cat

Calvine said:


> At least UK no longer subsidises it (or so I read) so that's a step in the right direction. It's not just the bullfighting, there are other things they do for ''a fun time'' with bulls. Such as wrapping petrol-soaked cloth around their horns, setting fire to them and watching them run off in terror.


Disgusting, but only in one town, once a year I believe.

To be honest, bullfighting is a dying 'sport' and I expect the next left wing government will ban it. In our autonomous region there is only 1 city with a bullring and it has one or two fights a year. Most Spanish people are either opposed to bullfighting or indifferent about it. Very few support it.


----------



## rona

https://thelastarena.wordpress.com/...gallup-polls-lies-damned-lies-and-statistics/

However, I will publish the result of the most recent poll, despite my view polls aren't worth the paper they are printed on. This was comissioned by _El Pais_, _The Guardian_ of Spanish newspapers, and carried out by Metroscopia immediately after the bullfighting ban was voted through - but not yet carried out - in Barcelona in 2010.

The result is simple: 57% of people across Spain were against the ban of bullfighting in Catalonia, even though 60% of those polled said they did not like bullfighting.

37% of Spaniards said they were fans of bullfighting. That oh so famous 72% having now apparently dropped to 63% in 4 years.


----------



## Arnie83

I'm as much against bull fighting as the next person, but to suggest it as a reason for leaving the EU is pretty silly. Are we going to leave the WTO as well because of some of its other members? Ban Japanese imports because of their whale slaughter? Or avoid a free trade deal with South Korea because they eat dogs?


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> At least UK no longer subsidises it (or so I read) so that's a step in the right direction.


Neither does the EU. Quite funny how people complain about the membership of the EU means giving up retain sovereignty then provide examples where it shows that is false.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> It's all speculation and theory on both sides. We can't know what would have happened had we not joined the Eu.


Really, it's estimated that the impact was an annual gain equivalent to about 10% of GDP using a methodology by Frankel and Romer in 1999. This far exceeded the 'membership fee' required in terms of the net budgetary contribution and net costs of regulation which have totalled about 1.5% of GDP. That's only financial benefits of course. So can you come up with any studies showing disadvantages?

Still haven't seen people providing advantages to leaving. Seen we'll wait and see, in otherwords, didn't know what we voted for.


----------



## leashedForLife

*Odin_cat* said,

_To be honest, bullfighting is a dying 'sport' ...
___________________________________________
.
.
It's not "dying" as long as the Spanish Govt props it up - & they fully & aggressively support it as a national heritage. 
.
Catalonia attempted to ban it, & lost - the national Govt overruled the local one.
.
.
.


----------



## Odin_cat

leashedForLife said:


> *Odin_cat* said,
> 
> _To be honest, bullfighting is a dying 'sport' ...
> ___________________________________________
> .
> .
> It's not "dying" as long as the Spanish Govt props it up - & they fully & aggressively support it as a national heritage.
> .
> Catalonia attempted to ban it, & lost - the national Govt overruled the local one.
> .
> .
> .


That's why we need a left wing government again .

There hasn't been a bull fight in Catalonia for years and they are being less and less common across the North. Rajoy can't force people to watch it.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Really, it's estimated that the impact was an annual gain equivalent to about 10% of GDP using a methodology by Frankel and Romer in 1999. This far exceeded the 'membership fee' required in terms of the net budgetary contribution and net costs of regulation which have totalled about 1.5% of GDP. That's only financial benefits of course. So can you come up with any studies showing disadvantages?
> 
> Still haven't seen people providing advantages to leaving. Seen we'll wait and see, in otherwords, didn't know what we voted for.


Now if only that had started "Really, the impact was an annual gain....". But nope it had that little bitty pesky "estimated" in there. Oh well.


----------



## rona

Odin_cat said:


> That's why we need a left wing government again .
> 
> There hasn't been a bull fight in Catalonia for years and they are being less and less common across the North. Rajoy can't force people to watch it.


Because it was banned in 2010, but that was overturned in 2016


----------



## Odin_cat

rona said:


> Because it was banned in 2010, but that was overturned in 2016


I know, but I think it is unlikely that there will be more bullfights there, I don't think many miss them.

The Spanish government is trying to assert power because of the demands for Catalonian independence. A very interesting, issue, but not one for this thread.


----------



## rona

Looks really unpopular 90 different dates 

https://www.servitoro.com/en/bullfighting-calendar


----------



## Odin_cat

rona said:


> Looks really unpopular 90 different dates
> 
> https://www.servitoro.com/en/bullfighting-calendar


I'm not going to respond to this point again because it's not really relevant to the thread.

That is 90 fights across the whole of Spain in a year. I'm not saying it's OK, it's not. But a generation ago there would have been hundreds of bullfights. Younger people have no interest in it in my experience.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Bullfighting in Spain is Spain's problem...


----------



## rona

Colliebarmy said:


> Bullfighting in Spain is Spain's problem...


I agree but I don't think the 40,000 bulls that die every year would think so

In all countries that practice Bull fighting it's 250,000 bulls losing their lives in agony


----------



## Arnie83

Still not sure what it's got to do with Brexit.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> Neither does the EU


I didn't say EU did subsidise it, did I? Try not to jump to conclusions when you haven't read the post properly. I KNOW they don't; I'm not thick....I was talking about the fact that Spain _allows it and other unacceptable animal cruelty _ and that until recently we DID subsidise it; that's all. I am not sure what point you are trying to make (if any...or are you just wanting to nit-pick in your usual irritating way, as usual?) but it isn't clear at all. You are always in such a hurry to jump on my posts, for some reason, and pick them to bits like a damned vulture (another reason I stopped contributing to this thread: it's just the three or four of you slapping each other on the back). Incidentally, the only reason I am posting on this thread NOW is that you quoted me. I think it's high time it was closed as it's well over its sell-by date. I thought ''when there was nothing more to add' they were shut down. The four of you could continue by PM and ''like'' and agree with each other 100% of the time.


----------



## Elles

The point I was making is people have many and varied reasons for wanting to leave the Eu. It's acceptable to vote for a party you don't actually like, because the other one wants to bring back fox hunting, so although I doubt anyone's main reason for leaving the Eu was bull fighting in Spain, or animal welfare generally, live exports, horse meat etc, it's a perfectly legitimate consideration imo.

We may not as an individual necessarily like people's reasons for voting leave, but they did and I don't agree with spitting on them for it. I can see reasons for both sides. There were some reasons given for staying that had my eyebrows raised past my hairline tbh. I'm sure some folk didn't vote leave, because they wanted to leave the Eu, they wanted there to not be an Eu (as do many living in mainland Europe). They felt it was going too far and becoming too expensive. Why is that not a legitimate reason?

The Eu would not agree to restricting free movement. France, Germany and Italy had restrictions initially, but when they wanted an extension (having seen what happened in the uk with no restrictions) they were turned down. If people felt there needed to be restrictions on the numbers of unskilled, uneducated people coming into the country for better pay, they couldn't look to the Eu, even if they thought they should. They were accused of xenophobia, when they felt our country was already struggling to cope with integration and public services and needed time at least. Another legitimate reason imo.



Arnie83 said:


> I'm as much against bull fighting as the next person, but to suggest it as a reason for leaving the EU is pretty silly. Are we going to leave the WTO as well because of some of its other members? Ban Japanese imports because of their whale slaughter? Or avoid a free trade deal with South Korea because they eat dogs?


Why not? Plenty of people believe we shouldn't trade with Japan or South Korea because of animal welfare issues.

As it happens, with my son and his Gib wife living in Gibraltar and my other son's partner being German, I'm obviously not anti Europe. I'm not looking for studies as they'd be nothing but speculation. Either way.

Anyway, I think I've had my say now and no doubt there are a million arguments and counter arguments. My main concern now is that Mrs May doesn't get too huge a majority and her version of a hard brexit, or bring back fox hunting, or hit people like the elderly who have spent their lives paying for others often through very high taxes, or make the disabled jump through hoops. I'm pleased to see that as I suspected not all modern conservatives are b'tards. I'd not heard of blue fox until now. Nice one guys.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> I'm as much against bull fighting as the next person, but to suggest it as a reason for leaving the EU is pretty silly





Arnie83 said:


> Still not sure what it's got to do with Brexit.


It's not but I can't let someone tell you it's not popular when it actually obviously still is


----------



## Odin_cat

rona said:


> It's not but I can't let someone tell you it's not popular when it actually obviously still is


As somebody who lives in Spain and talks to Spanish people every day, I thought I should point out that many of us like it no more than British people like fox hunting.

No doubt if the EU had banned fox hunting, many would have seen it as an attack on British sovereignty. The EU can't win!


----------



## Elles

If the Eu had banned fox hunting, there would probably be the majority of British people out in the streets waving Eu flags with a pic of a fox in the centre of the stars.


----------



## Odin_cat

Elles said:


> If the Eu had banned fox hunting, there would probably be the majority of British people out in the streets waving Eu flags with a pic of a fox in the centre of the stars.


They missed a trick then, it.would have swung the vote .


----------



## rona

*"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it" George Orwell*


----------



## kimthecat

May says Brussels must pay its own Brexit Bill

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...russels-must-pay-brexit-bill-billions-pounds/

Brussels must pay its own Brexit bill of billions of pounds for Britain's share of the European Investment Bank and other joint projects, Theresa May has indicated.

The Prime Minister says in an interview with The Sunday Telegraph that "money paid in the past" by the UK must be taken into account in the final divorce bill.

She insisted that the UK has financial "rights" that must be respected during discussions about payments as well as "obligations" to the body it is leaving.

The intervention is a clear rejection of hardline EU countries who have argued that the UK should not get back its proportion of EU assets.

Reports from Brussels have claimed Brexit negotiators want anything between €60 and €100 when the UK leaves to cover EU payments already agreed.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> *"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it" George Orwell*


Absolutely right Rona, who is supplying truth?



kimthecat said:


> May says Brussels must pay its own Brexit Bill


Oh look, May being hit in the election campaign numbers.. drag out the nasty EU and show "strong and stable" leadership... We need to rally around her obviously...


----------



## Dr Pepper

kimthecat said:


> Reports from Brussels have claimed Brexit negotiators want anything between €60 and €100 when the UK leaves to cover EU payments already agreed.


Wow is that all. If it becomes a sticking point I'll happily pay it to complete the process.


----------



## kimthecat

Dr Pepper said:


> Wow is that all. If it becomes a sticking point I'll happily pay it to complete the process.


 Even I could pay that !  I assume they mean billions.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nifesto?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

Well personally I have come around to Corbyn's way of thinking on Brexit. Stay in the single market, visas for casual and seasonal workers and we won't leave until a deal is truck on trade so would have to accept the freedom of movement on trade and goods. He also said we'd still be leaving the EU and control immigration but under fairer circumstances.

I have gone off May and the Cons.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> Well personally I have come around to Corbyn's way of thinking on Brexit. Stay in the single market, visas for casual and seasonal workers and we won't leave until a deal is truck on trade so would have to accept the freedom of movement on trade and goods. He also said we'd still be leaving the EU and control immigration but under fairer circumstances.
> 
> I have gone off May and the Cons.


Brexit is nothing to do with the election or a party it's about getting out of the EU, we voted to go we should go completely.
Seasonal workers, skilled labour and staff for the NHS have always been able to come in and always will . We don't need to dance to their tune for that


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## Elles

I was a casual worker sometimes in Lincolnshire. I chopped sprouts off stalks and pulled up turnips amongst other things. It was a piece rate and I was the fastest of the casuals, there were permanent staff too. Very proud of myself I was, got through boxes of blue plasters like they were going out of fashion. We were all women, other than the young lads the farm sent to collect and pack our baskets into the trucks. We earned more when we were at the start of the conveyer, chopping the large sprouts, they filled the baskets more quickly. The end of the belt was the smaller sprouts, they went to Birdseye. Each day we moved one place down the belt, so everyone got a chance at the larger ones. Heaven were we sexist. The young lads would blush bright red at our antics. I say our, I was young then and quite shy myself, but the older women omg. It was pretty well paid really. I also worked on a seaside stall, selling rock and mr whippy ice-cream. Not quite so well paid, but not bad at the time.

Why wouldn't unemployed people here already want to do it?


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Why wouldn't unemployed people here already want to do it?


My instinctive response (not based on knowledge)... they can earn more on benefits which they would lose if working.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Brexit is nothing to do with the election or a party it's about getting out of the EU, we voted to go we should go completely.
> Seasonal workers, skilled labour and staff for the NHS have always been able to come in and always will . We don't need to dance to their tune for that


Who in referendum said it will be NO DEAL. Brexit?
I am quite sure many voting Leave expected a good deal, which May and her three stooges failed to produce. Fist waving instead.
Meanwhile:


----------



## cheekyscrip

Sorry to bore you with reality check:








No matter who wins election Brexit is disastrous for our economy.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Sorry to bore you with reality check:
> View attachment 312969
> 
> No matter who wins election Brexit is disastrous for our economy.


No pain, no gain.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> No pain, no gain.


No, pain but no gain.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> No, pain but no gain.


Neither not gain nor no not pain. (Make mine a pain au chocolat).


----------



## KittenKong

It goes without saying my anti Brexit stance is as strong as ever, but I certainly have more faith in this gentleman than May and her three Brexiteers.

As mentioned earlier Brexit doesn't have to mean exiting the single market or EEA membership. Norway and Switzerland seem to do OK.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Looking at Boris right now...why , but why British people listen to such an idiot????


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Looking at Boris right now...why , but why British people listen to such an idiot????


Probably because The Sun says Bojo and Gove WILL honour their referendum pledges, like £350m for the NHS.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Looking at Boris right now...why , but why British people listen to such an idiot????


Because he's funny


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Because he's funny


Not any more, bit overweight, aging class clown, used to be funny as a journalist ....
This " staring out" till had to be told not to be rude...how childish...inappropriate and plain silly....


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4614492/Wounded-knees-PM-faces-civil-war.html


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 313592




Best let Corbyn sort it out ,


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4614492/Wounded-knees-PM-faces-civil-war.html
> View attachment 315185
> View attachment 315186
> View attachment 315187


The will of the people, eh. I wonder how sacrosanct it will be to the antediluvian Tory Brexiteers when it dares to disagree with what they want.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> Because he's funny


Yes; people are attracted to those who make them laugh; you are right there.


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## Elles

Polls are always right of course. The only people I know who have changed their minds voted remain in the referendum.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Polls are always right of course. The only people I know who have changed their minds voted remain in the referendum.


You must be quite a formidable lady of they say so!!!
Ever thought about the forthcoming vacancy in No.10?
All you need is to be strong and stable bloody difficult woman!!!

( No.11 could be converted into stable and the noble steed can join the parliament...it will not be the first time! )


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> You must be quite a formidable lady of they say so!!!
> Ever thought about the forthcoming vacancy in No.10?
> All you need is to be strong and stable bloody difficult woman!!!
> 
> ( No.11 could be converted into stable and the noble steed can join the parliament...it will not be the first time! )


Lol.

I think some people are changing their minds, they just want the government to get on with it and think it's too late to go back. Not technically too late, practically. We're all fed up with it probably. 

If they held another referendum they might find leavers voting remain, because they just want to stop hearing about it and remainers voting leave, because sod it we might as well just get it over with. :Hilarious


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> If they held another referendum they might find leavers voting remain


This leaver won't change. It's far far too important an issue to be fickle about and we need to get out ASAP.

All the other issues at the moment are passing events to the majority. Well hopefully people may become safer in their homes, but most will not be affected in a years time by events today.

What we will all be affected by for decades to come is whether we are in or out of Europe


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 315250


Have we?
No one asked me.
How many people where asked for this survey?
Very deceptive prediction.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Ever thought


Yep.


> about the forthcoming vacancy in No.10?


Boris Johnson or Michael Gove as PM because it would have to be someone in the Conservative Party after all as it would be a leadership challenge within the Conservatives that would decide who is next PM or even Theresa May remaining as PM via a landslide vote within the Conservative MP's circle


----------



## Honeys mum

Well today is the day.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

I think that staying in the EU or changing our minds is off the table:

*Britain could only stay in EU on worse terms, Guy Verhofstadt says*

European Parliament's Brexit coordinator says the "door is open", but "like Alice in Wonderland, not all the doors are the same".

Britain is welcome to change its mind and remain in the European Union, but can only stay on poorer terms, a senior EU official has said.

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/brita...-on-worse-terms-guy-verhofstadt-says-10915293

To those that are circulating that the UK public have changed there minds about leaving can you please provide facts to prove this as no one asked me, my friends, my neighbours, my family etc when conducting the poll relating to these allegations.


----------



## KittenKong

17/06/17


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> To those that are circulating that the UK public have changed there minds about leaving can you please provide facts to prove this as no one asked me, my friends, my neighbours, my family etc when conducting the poll relating to these allegations.


Totally agree SWC, none of my family has been asked and I don't know of anyone that has.
So to anyone concerned ,as the saying goes please put up ( the evidence) or shut up and please stop the scaremongering.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Well today is the day.


Strong and stable?
Perhaps?
And who needs experts?
Project Fear anyone?

While we are having cuts and more cuts...who bears the consequences?

I do not want to score points but it is symbolic...
Change the photo on the poster....


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> While we are having cuts and more cuts...who bears the consequences?
> 
> I totally agree with you CS, I did not votefor the tories, and certainally didn't want them to get in. But they did and theres not much we can do about that.
> 
> I do not want to score points but it is symbolic...
> Change the photo on the poster....


Sorry no can do, not my poster. I voted leave and haven't and would never change my mind, so I thought I would put it on. Sorry if it upsets you.x


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> Sorry no can do, not my poster. I voted leave and haven't and would never change my mind, so I thought I would put it on. Sorry if it upsets you.x


It does not. The situation UK put itself does worry me a great deal.

It would be so different if UK was in EU and with Poland, Hungary, Czek , Spain, Greece, Italy stopped Juncker and Merkel from taking over.

The consequences for the City, the trade will be dire.
People do not want to know.
Like with fire safety,experts warned, explained, so what?
Who.needed experts?.Bojo was in charge of London.

Now he wants to be in charge of UK.
@stokewellcat also.mentioned Gove.

Both such beacons of integrity, honesty and unbreakable principles.

Best men UK can provide...to lead us...straight into ?

Do really trust them with your and your family future?


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Bojo was in charge of London.
> 
> Now he wants to be in charge of UK.
> @stokewellcat also.mentioned Gove.
> 
> Both such beacons of integrity, honesty and unbreakable principles.
> 
> Best men UK can provide...to lead us...straight into ?


Passing flotsam, unlike that awful EU institution


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Passing flotsam, unlike that awful EU institution


Who now opts for " happy Brexit"










" I am loving it".


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> Do really trust them with your and your family future?


No I don't trust any of them CS. But unfortunatley nothing I could do about it except not vote for them.

Don't want to bring this up again but are you saying That voting to leave was wrong. I'm sorry but you have your opinion and I have mine, and I'm sure we are never going to agree on that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Honeys mum said:


> No I don't trust any of them CS. But unfortunatley nothing I could do about it except not vote for them.
> 
> Don't want to bring this up again but are you saying That voting to leave was wrong. I'm sorry but you have your opinion and I have mine, and I'm sure we are never going to agree on that.


For our sake I wish you were right and I was wrong.
Really do.

Both May and Johnson pointed we will be safer, stronger and more prosperous in EU.
Then as soon as opportunity to further their career appeared what is good for the country was no longer important.
Happy Brexit everyone!.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I was a casual worker sometimes in Lincolnshire. I chopped sprouts off stalks and pulled up turnips amongst other things. It was a piece rate and I was the fastest of the casuals, there were permanent staff too. Very proud of myself I was, got through boxes of blue plasters like they were going out of fashion. We were all women, other than the young lads the farm sent to collect and pack our baskets into the trucks. We earned more when we were at the start of the conveyer, chopping the large sprouts, they filled the baskets more quickly. The end of the belt was the smaller sprouts, they went to Birdseye. Each day we moved one place down the belt, so everyone got a chance at the larger ones. Heaven were we sexist. The young lads would blush bright red at our antics. I say our, I was young then and quite shy myself, but the older women omg. It was pretty well paid really.
> 
> Why wouldn't unemployed people here already want to do it?


It rather depends if such jobs are still available, does it not? Mechanisation, not immigration, has long been the biggest cause of manual labour job loss.

Where immigrants ARE a factor in casual labour, then the issue often lies with the employers themselves - if they believe they can get away with illegally employing immigrants for less money (and no NI/pension contributions), many will go that route.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> It rather depends if such jobs are still available, does it not? Mechanisation, not immigration, has long been the biggest cause of manual labour job loss.
> 
> Where immigrants ARE a factor in casual labour, then the issue often lies with the employers themselves - if they believe they can get away with illegally employing immigrants for less money (and no NI/pension contributions), many will go that route.


Illegal workers have no rights, live in fear of deportation, often are victims of human trafficking, organised by gangsters.
Great route that.

Also illegal means no official control of numbers.
Hurray, official numbers of immigrants will go down!!!
This is what we are fighting for!!!


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Well today is the day.


What scaremongering are we supposed to be ignoring this time?


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> What scaremongering are we supposed to be ignoring this time?


I wouldn't know as I didn't write it.
Who knows,the mind boggles. But I'm sure there will be some.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> While we are having cuts and more cuts...who bears the consequences?


Yes, good question, who does bear the consequences?

Police arrive and end a terror attack in eight minutes.

Firefighters and medics arrive at tower inferno in six minutes.

I missed her name and rank, but on GMB this morning there was some head honcho woman from the London firebrigade. Piers Morgan asked her directly if cutbacks had effected their response and the outcome. Do you know what, the answer was they absolutely had all the firefighters on the ground they could handle and there wasn't one piece of equipment/appliance that they didn't have that would have made any difference to the number of survivors.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> I wouldn't know as I didn't write it.
> Who knows,the mind boggles. But I'm sure there will be some.


I expect they'll threaten us with the pound losing value, inflation rising, standard of living falling in real terms like they did before the referendum. Best just to ignore it. That nice Mr Trump is bound to give us a better trade deal than we've got now, judging by his "UK First!" slogan.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Police arrive and end a terror attack in eight minutes.


I think the idea is that with more police and more counter-intelligence personnel even more terror attacks might be prevented rather than curtailed.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes, good question, who does bear the consequences?
> 
> Police arrive and end a terror attack in eight minutes.
> 
> Firefighters and medics arrive at tower inferno in six minutes.
> 
> I missed her name and rank, but on GMB this morning there was some head honcho woman from the London firebrigade. Piers Morgan asked her directly if cutbacks had effected their response and the outcome. Do you know what, the answer was they absolutely had all the firefighters on the ground they could handle and there wasn't one piece of equipment/appliance that they didn't have that would have made any difference to the number of survivors.


I would like to point to you @noushka05 excellent post quoting the fireman who answered to Bojo's criticism of Khan.
Yes, they used all they had, and he explained why it was so insufficient.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I think the idea is that with more police and more counter-intelligence personnel even more terror attacks might be prevented rather than curtailed.


Hasn't the budget actually increased though for terror related investigations?



cheekyscrip said:


> I would like to point to you @noushka05 excellent post quoting the fireman who answered to Bojo's criticism of Khan.
> Yes, they used all they had, and he explained why it was so insufficient.


They didn't use all the had, they used all they required. Big difference.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here is the UK's Brexit negotiating team:


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> Here is the UK's Brexit negotiating team:


Dare I ask if you happen to know how many of them are leavers SWC.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> Dare I ask if you happen to know how many of them are leavers SWC.


I don't know the answer to this question.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well the first round of talks where constructive. The UK will discuss Brexit with the EU once every 4 weeks for one week and in-between each side will work on various tasks to make the talks remain constructive and the EU will work with the UK so that a reasonable Brexit deal can be made. They believe the time table of two years is achievable to get a deal with the EU. David Davis said Theresa May will be making a statement next week on this and David Davis and his team will meet with all political parties leaders (only) in Privy council to update them of any progress made so that all party leaders get a say.

So to all those calling the Brexit negotiation team clowns should apologise as the talks have been very constructive for the UK and EU today.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> So to all those calling the Brexit negotiation team clowns should apologise as the talks have been very constructive for the UK and EU today.


I will never apologize until hear and agree with what they manage to get out of mess we are in.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> I will never apologize until hear and agree with what they manage to get out of mess we are in.


But we aren't in a mess (this is a statement dreamt up by remainers to stoke fear into people).

Listen to what Mr Barnier has said. The talks where very constructive and they want to work with the UK so the UK has an orderly exit from the EU. David Davis said all UK party leaders are being kept in the loop through the privy council on Brexit. EU citizens rights in the UK and UK citizens rights in the EU are being dealt with first and the Irish Border.

So what mess are you talking about? There isn't one at the moment. The talks could not have gone any better today.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> The talks could not have gone any better today.


Except that Davis has been banging on for months about wanting to talk about trade relations right from the start along with everything else, and he's now agreed that we're not going to do so. So the one part of today's talks that didn't go our way was the only one that the two sides disagreed on.

As for the mess; Wait.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> As for the mess; Wait.


No waiting because it will not happen.


> Except that Davis has been banging on for months about wanting to talk about trade relations right from the start along with everything else, and he's now agreed that we're not going to do so. So the one part of today's talks that didn't go our way was the only one that the two sides disagreed on.


Brexit will be in two Phases
Phase 1) The divorce
Phase 2) Trade Negotiations

Both phases are achievable within the 2 year time frame even Barnier said this today.

David Davis has agreed to the two phases of Brexit today so are you sure he said what you are claiming he said and isn't a creation of the lying propoganda press?

Both side's (EU and UK) have agreed the UK will be leaving the Single Market and Customs Union and that a free trade deal is possible. We have to leave the Single Market because the UK will be leaving the EU and controlling immigration so not adhering to the freedoms of movement. The UK has to leave the Customs Union so it can make its own trade deals.

So where are the problems?
Barnier and Davis have asked people not to keep jumping ahead, they are only discussing phase 1 at the moment and will deal with phase two when it is appropriate to do so.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> So to all those calling the Brexit negotiation team clowns should apologise as the talks have been very constructive for the UK and EU today.


Most certainly not!

Sounds like Hard Brexit is going to happen regardless.

I wonder what the DUP would have to say?


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> No waiting because it will not happen.
> 
> Brexit will be in two Phases
> Phase 1) The divorce
> Phase 2) Trade Negotiations
> 
> Both phases are achievable within the 2 year time frame even Barnier said this today.
> 
> David Davis has agreed to the two phases of Brexit today so are you sure he said what you are claiming he said and isn't a creation of the lying propoganda press?
> 
> Both side's (EU and UK) have agreed the UK will be leaving the Single Market and Customs Union and that a free trade deal is possible. We have to leave the Single Market because the UK will be leaving the EU and controlling immigration so not adhering to the freedoms of movement. The UK has to leave the Customs Union so it can make its own trade deals.
> 
> So where are the problems?
> Barnier and Davis have asked people not to keep jumping ahead, they are only discussing phase 1 at the moment and will deal with phase two when it is appropriate to do so.


Oh I wish I had your faith..........


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Most certainly not!
> 
> Sounds like Hard Brexit is going to happen regardless.
> 
> If Norway can be in the single market without being a full member of the EU why can't the UK?
> 
> And why the hell no reassurance for ex pats nor EU citizens here yet?
> 
> This is simply not good enough.


Did you not listen to their statements?


----------



## noushka05

Even the right wing press are waking up to hapless May & her bunch of incompetents and the looming brexit shambles.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am quite happy to have a serious debate but when people cannot be ar**d to listen to what people are telling you from there own professional point of view eg Barnier and Davis then I switch off. Was you at that meeting today? No. Did you watch the news conference on TV from Barnier and Davis? No but you cannot wait for the papers to tell you what you want to read. So going around calling people incompetent and clowns is silly talk. The press do nothing but stoke your fears and that is why I don't bother reading newspapers.

I will come back to this thread when the UK and EU are making progress on the talks because at the moment it is just full of silly remainer scaremongering which can get a bit exhausting.

Fact of today's meeting is it was very constructive, but obviously the remainers will be gloating over this to twist it and make it sound as if it was an unconstructive meeting.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Oh I wish I had your faith..........


Nothing to do with my faith, this is what happened.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Mess?




Watch that space....


----------



## rona

stockwellcat said:


> Nothing to do with my faith, this is what happened.


Yes but you also quoted



stockwellcat said:


> Both phases are achievable within the 2 year time frame even Barnier said this today.


They really can't say if it will be achievable in 2 years at this early juncture



stockwellcat said:


> leave the Customs Union so it can make its own trade deals.


You seem to think they are going to make this easy for us........I beg to differ



stockwellcat said:


> that a free trade deal is possible.


This remains to be seen

I hope you are right but I fear you are not


----------



## KittenKong

During and after the EU referendum:

Hate crime on the increase.

Hard working EU citizens continue to live in uncertainty as do UK ex pats abroad.

Five acts of terrorism over the past year.

A PM who took an expensive gamble by calling a general election she promised not to looking towards DUP support that could put the NI peace process in to jeopardy.

Others are welcome to add to the list or even argue what good has come to the UK since the referendum.....


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> During and after the EU referendum:
> 
> Hate crime on the increase.
> 
> Hard working EU citizens continue to live in uncertainty as do UK ex pats abroad.
> 
> Five acts of terrorism over the past year.
> 
> A PM who took an expensive gamble by calling a general election she promised not to looking towards DUP support that could put the NI peace process in to jeopardy.
> 
> Others are welcome to add to the list or even argue what good has come to the UK since the referendum.....


Add: Gibraltar. Will lose the industry, the livehoods, the freedom of movement, the trade, the tourism, the EU subsidies.

Might lose sovereignty as well.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> Add: Gibraltar. Will lose the industry, the livehoods, the freedom of movement, the trade, the tourism, the EU subsidies.
> 
> Might lose sovereignty as well.


Sorry, but the fate of Gibraltar didn't, and still doesn't, weigh heavily on anybody's mind be they remain or leave.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> During and after the EU referendum:
> 
> Hate crime on the increase.
> 
> Hard working EU citizens continue to live in uncertainty as do UK ex pats abroad.
> 
> Five acts of terrorism over the past year.
> 
> A PM who took an expensive gamble by calling a general election she promised not to looking towards DUP support that could put the NI peace process in to jeopardy.
> 
> Others are welcome to add to the list or even argue what good has come to the UK since the referendum.....


You really think all of those are down to us leaving the EU?


----------



## noushka05

_It is not about revenge or punishment but do not underestimate consequences_ - Michel Barnier.

Now doesn't that sound reassuring?.

.


----------



## Elles

Correlation does not imply causation. 

Haters will hate. I wish they'd stop it.


----------



## stuaz

rona said:


> You really think all of those are down to us leaving the EU?


If it fits the argument 

It waaaaaaaaay to early even a year on to know the effects of leaving the EU. The effects won't be known for at least 5 to 10 years.


----------



## Elles

"I'll say it clearly: there's no spirit of revenge, no punishment, no naivety either. And there is truth. Truth on what Brexit means, what leaving the EU signifies by its consequences. The citizens have the right to know this truth." In Britain, he added, "lots of people underestimated these consequences. Lots of people." - Michel Barnier

Sounds fair enough, no veiled threat there imo. Of course there will be consequences. Some good, some not so good. Early days yet.

Not sure how much information will be here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-exiting-the-european-union

A government website, so a healthy dose of scepticism recommended.


----------



## cheekyscrip

First day gone...UK - nil.EU - 1 
( divorce first, trade talks after...).


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> First day gone...UK - nil.EU - 1
> ( divorce first, trade talks after...).


So how is that UK 0 EU 1?
We knew that the format was going to be this way right from the start, at least it is official now. Nobody is point scoring. So it's more like UK 0 and EU 0 as nothing has happened yet. Plus the EU and UK have said they want to keep the talks neutral so they can work with each other so that a deal is struck. Again no point scoring is being achieved from either side.


----------



## Jonescat

David Davis apparently didn't know
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rees-caves-in-before-trade-deal-a7798076.html


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> So how is that UK 0 EU 1?
> We knew that the format was going to be this way right from the start, at least it is official now. Nobody is point scoring. So it's more like UK 0 and EU 0 as nothing has happened yet. Plus the EU and UK have said they want to keep the talks neutral so they can work with each other so that a deal is struck. Again no point scoring is being achieved from either side.


It's a big game to them. May thought she could dictate her terms, believing a landslide would guarantee this. It makes no difference whether she got the landslide or not.

This seemingly Tory backing paper seems to agree.

http://www.cityam.com/266974/uk-has-backed-down-timeline-brexit-talks-very-first-day

Good for the EU!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> It's a big game to them. May thought she could dictate her terms, believing a landslide would guarantee this. It makes no difference whether she got the landslide or not.
> 
> This seemingly Tory backing paper seems to agree.
> 
> http://www.cityam.com/266974/uk-has-backed-down-timeline-brexit-talks-very-first-day
> 
> Good for the EU!
> View attachment 315405
> View attachment 315406


Strong & stable?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> It's a big game to them. May thought she could dictate her terms, believing a landslide would guarantee this. It makes no difference whether she got the landslide or not.
> 
> This seemingly Tory backing paper seems to agree.
> 
> http://www.cityam.com/266974/uk-has-backed-down-timeline-brexit-talks-very-first-day
> 
> Good for the EU!
> View attachment 315405
> View attachment 315406


Do you know I don't really care about all this tittle tattal as long as the UK leaves the EU like what I voted for I am not really bothered on what terms etc as long as the UK leaves.

Before you bounce back saying that we'd be better off staying in the EU no we wouldn't because last week EU leaders said the UK would not get favourable terms, no concessions and would be worse off staying. They said that we'd have to accept the Euro and give up the pound sterling, would have no veto etc.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> No waiting because it will not happen.


There's being optimistic, and then there's sticking your head in the sand.

From the BBC today:

The boss of Rolls-Royce has called for "as little change as possible" after Brexit to minimise the impact on business of leaving the European Union.

Warren East told the BBC: "The further we get from the status quo, the harder it's going to be."

The engine-maker wants to continue being able to move parts and staff freely between the UK and the bloc.

Leaving the customs union and the single market could mean an end to free movement of labour and goods.​Now the boss of Rolls Royce might be scaremongering, or he might know what he's talking about. Their components cross internal EU borders many times during the construction process, as do those of other aerospace companies and vehicle manufacturers. At the moment their lorries can just drive straight through, because we are members of the customs union and single market.

And we are leaving both. So the lorries will have to stop at each border, queue, present the required paperwork, pay the required tariffs, then go on their way.

That's a small part of the mess.

Unless the EU say "Of course you can retain all the benefits of membership without any of the costs or having to follow the rules or be subject to the ECJ rulings!" And why the hell would they do that?



stockwellcat said:


> Brexit will be in two Phases
> Phase 1) The divorce
> Phase 2) Trade Negotiations
> 
> *Both phases are achievable within the 2 year time frame even Barnier said this today.*


I would be very surprise if he said that, so if you could provide a link to the quote ... ?



stockwellcat said:


> David Davis has agreed to the two phases of Brexit today so are you sure he said what you are claiming he said and isn't a creation of the lying propoganda press?


Yes I'm very sure indeed. The government have been saying for months that the trade deal should be discussed at the same time as everything else. And the lying propaganda press tend to be on the side of the Brexiters, not the EU. Davis conceded the point yesterday in the first meeting.



stockwellcat said:


> Both side's (EU and UK) have agreed the UK will be leaving the Single Market and Customs Union and that a free trade deal is possible. We have to leave the Single Market because the UK will be leaving the EU and controlling immigration so not adhering to the freedoms of movement. The UK has to leave the Customs Union so it can make its own trade deals.
> 
> So where are the problems?


The UK has said they are leaving, and the EU have accepted it. It's not something that needs agreement.

The 'free trade' agreement will not be the same as the single market. It simply won't. Anyone who thinks otherwise frankly doesn't know what they're talking about.

As for where the problems are; as an example, see the comments from the boss of Rolls Royce above.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Do you know I don't really care about all this tittle tattal as long as the UK leaves the EU like what I voted for I am not really bothered on what terms etc as long as the UK leaves.


This, I presume, will double as your answer to my post above, and for me that's the most depressing thing of all. But we've been through all that before.

The more I hear it, though, the more I think that the talk of scaremongering etc etc is just waffle intended to deflect from the truth. The people claiming that "It will be fine" neither know nor care what the consequences are, so long as our tribe can be 'free' of outside influence. The irony, of course, is that we will be no such thing, when not only are we so dependent on foreign trade but when so much of our industry is already foreign owned.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> This, I presume, will double as your answer to my post above, and for me that's the most depressing thing of all. But we've been through all that before.
> 
> The more I hear it, though, the more I think that the talk of scaremongering etc etc is just waffle intended to deflect from the truth. The people claiming that "It will be fine" neither know nor care what the consequences are, so long as our tribe can be 'free' of outside influence. The irony, of course, is that we will be no such thing, when not only are we so dependent on foreign trade but when so much of our industry is already foreign owned.


We can always follow the example of North Korea?
They certainly are marching by own drum...
Just do not try to take off any posters....

EU will strip the City of EU clearing and lots of business, Germany and France will now rule the other 25 with no significant objections...
Why would they want the troublesome UK back?

This is why joining in in 1973 was so important, and leaving now is frankly very damaging for us.

There is no such thing as happy Brexit, Bojo...

Unless we legalise pot and become the world biggest suppliers.


----------



## Elles

I used to work for a castings company that made parts for Rolls-Royce. It's joked that nearly everyone in Exeter has been employed by them at some stage. They're an American company. We seem to be able to ship parts from China easily enough and employ people in sweatshops and call centres in India. Where there's a will, there's a way.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I used to work for a castings company that made parts for Rolls-Royce. It's joked that nearly everyone in Exeter has been employed by them at some stage. They're an American company. We seem to be able to ship parts from China easily enough and employ people in sweatshops and call centres in India. Where there's a will, there's a way.


Shipping parts from China into the EU (i.e. the UK) and then across EU borders involves 1 external border crossing. Sending parts across internal UK/EU borders up to 5 times - as happens now in vehicle production - is then customs free. Once we leave they won't be.

The way to avoid that requires the will to compromise on what the Tory Brexiteers like to think the Leave voters meant with nothing more detailed than a tick.


----------



## Elles

Perhaps we'll have to make our own stuff, or do without if imports are too expensive then. I'm sure we'll manage. If not, there's no point in having a socialist government. No one left will be rich enough to be top 5% earners, earning over 80k a year, apart from the government. I'm sorry, but all this doom and gloom over leaving the Eu is counterproductive and unnecessary imo. We'll see won't we.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Perhaps we'll have to make our own stuff, or do without if imports are too expensive then. I'm sure we'll manage. If not, there's no point in having a socialist government. No one left will be rich enough to be top 5% earners, earning over 80k a year, apart from the government. I'm sorry, but all this doom and gloom over leaving the Eu is counterproductive and unnecessary imo. We'll see won't we.


Recognising the economic downsides of a hard Brexit - leaving both the single market and the customs union - is hardly counterproductive and unnecessary when you can then use that knowledge to guide your negotiating strategy.

Going into those negotiations thinking that everything is going to be fine, and that people like Philip Hammond and Mark Carney are just scaremongering when they suggest otherwise, will result in a couple of decades of economic struggle, especially for the poor and the young. Now THAT is what I call counterproductive and unnecessary.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Perhaps we'll have to make our own stuff, or do without if imports are too expensive then.


You mean companies such as Nissan etc deciding they can more easily close shop in the UK and move production to other countries in the EU. Easy to be dismissive rather than look at reality, reality which has been known since before the referendum and ignored. Slogans such as "take back control" are great, it's the details that matter.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Ahh, now the election is over (for the time being) we can get back to Brexit. Hope everyone on the perpetually roundabout is holding on tight because you might just nod off when it gets repetitive.


----------



## Elles

You guys who think it's all doom and gloom, are any of you concerned about your actual job? Have evidence that you will be worse off, or on benefits? Worried that you might have to leave the uk, or even worse, return to it? To you I say Good Luck. Let's hope it all works out in the end. The sooner they get round to sorting out what's happening with the citizens the better. We are leaving the Eu, let's hope we get a decent resolution all round. Try not to worry too much. What's done is done and it might yet be for the best. We don't know, we're just pawns in a game we changed. Hopefully for the better, but if not, we'll have plenty of time for regrets and recriminations later. For now, cheers. 

Phew, it ain't half hot.


----------



## Arnie83

I think I'll stop banging my head against the wall.

I find it astonishing that some people are so uncaring about the next 20 years that they can find the subject boring. Or that they think the likes of the Chancellor and the BoE Governor are just scaremongering, as if they are either ignorant of economics or wilfully trying to subvert the 'will of the people'.

Worst of all I find it depressing that a lot of people don't seem to care what happens to the people of the UK so long as we get rid of the foreign influence over our affairs, (as if leaving the EU will do anything of the sort).

What hope is there for the human race if we cling to the notion that we are a bunch of tiny territorial tribes who view cooperation as weakness, and cross-border decision making as some sort of national insult. I really hoped we were more civilised than our stone-age ancestors, but apparently I was being wildly overoptimistic.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I think I'll stop banging my head against the wall.
> 
> I find it astonishing that some people are so uncaring about the next 20 years that they can find the subject boring. Or that they think the likes of the Chancellor and the BoE Governor are just scaremongering, as if they are either ignorant of economics or wilfully trying to subvert the 'will of the people'.
> 
> Worst of all I find it depressing that a lot of people don't seem to care what happens to the people of the UK so long as we get rid of the foreign influence over our affairs, (as if leaving the EU will do anything of the sort).
> 
> What hope is there for the human race if we cling to the notion that we are a bunch of tiny territorial tribes who view cooperation as weakness, and cross-border decision making as some sort of national insult. I really hoped we were more civilised than our stone-age ancestors, but apparently I was being wildly overoptimistic.


Not at all. It's actually about time every country started to concern themselves with their own affairs rather than interfere in everyone else's. Hopefully Brexit will be the start of that for many other countries.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Not at all. It's actually about time every country started to concern themselves with their own affairs rather than interfere in everyone else's. Hopefully Brexit will be the start of that for many other countries.


Ah, you mean the asian countries who are banding together, maybe the africans who are doing the same. Austria, Netherlands or France maybe... People are generally aware that the phrase "stronger together" actually works.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> who view cooperation as weakness, and cross-border decision making .


Well that's just it isn't it, we don't believe that's what we've got. You might but some of us see it differently


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Not at all. It's actually about time every country started to concern themselves with their own affairs rather than interfere in everyone else's. Hopefully Brexit will be the start of that for many other countries.


Yeah, cos that's worked so very well in the past.

It's time we all started looking out for each other across the planet.

Roll on a world government without these prehistoric territorial divisions.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Y
> 
> Roll on a world government without these prehistoric territorial divisions.


Sorry about this, it's not something I'd normally do but......................Like Hitler wanted you mean? 

Or ISIS


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Do you know I don't really care about all this tittle tattal as long as the UK leaves the EU like what I voted for I am not really bothered on what terms etc as long as the UK leaves.
> 
> Before you bounce back saying that we'd be better off staying in the EU no we wouldn't because last week EU leaders said the UK would not get favourable terms, no concessions and would be worse off staying. They said that we'd have to accept the Euro and give up the pound sterling, would have no veto etc.


Where did you read that? Sounds like a bit of right wing scaremongering to me. "We better get out regardless of the cost as those nasty EU bullies will force us to adopt the Euro and drive on the right"....

Besides, if this info is correct I'd personally welcome adopting the Euro!


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> Sorry about this, it's not something I'd normally do but......................Like Hitler wanted you mean?


I was just about to say it myself. :Hilarious I believe ISIS have similar ambitions.

I do think it would be wonderful to live in a peaceful world where anyone can go where they want to. This is humans we're talking about though. It would take an alien invasion to get even close.

I think if we were going to embrace Europe we should also have embraced the Euro. Driving on the right would have been nice too imo. All these right drive cars having to be manufactured specially for us, at our prices and rubbish to drive around French and Spanish roads. I'd be happy to leave Europe, but change to the Euro and drive on the right.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Sorry about this, it's not something I'd normally do but......................Like Hitler wanted you mean?
> 
> Or ISIS


No.

I hoped that people might have moved sufficiently far from their animal ancestry to come together through voluntary cooperation. Your examples are of those imposing their will on others through force, a bit like those who built Empires.

Some people in this country seem to think we've still got one.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> I'd be happy to leave Europe, but change to the Euro and drive on the right.


   :Arghh


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Some people in this country seem to think we've still got one.


I'm sure some do, like some think the EU is a good thing


----------



## cheekyscrip

Some think " who needs experts"?
Experts are just " scaremongers".
Sadly,some people still do not realise how dangerous is such thinking.
Even ministers could willfully ignore warnings .
Until the " scaremongering" is tragic reality.

So much for " it will be fine", " who needs experts", " who needs their reports"....


----------



## Zaros

Elles said:


> . I'd be happy to drive on the right.


In a LHD, of course. Otherwise you'd become a potential/frightening liability on single carriageways/B roads because overtaking would prove to be a bit of a dangerous manoeuvre for everyone.
I owned a left hooker in Britain, it cost more to insure, proved a bit awkward when it came to overtaking and taking a ticket from a car park ticket machine was a definite pain in the 4r53. 
On the plus side, I always got in and out kerbside.:Smug


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Where did you read that? Sounds like a bit of right wing scaremongering to me. "We better get out regardless of the cost as those nasty EU bullies will force us to adopt the Euro and drive on the right"....
> 
> Besides, if this info is correct I'd personally welcome adopting the Euro!


It was in the guardian newspaper and all over BBC News and Sky News.
*Britain could only stay in EU on worse terms, Guy Verhofstadt says*
European Parliament's Brexit coordinator says the "door is open", but "like Alice in Wonderland, not all the doors are the same".

*Britain is welcome to change its mind and remain in the European Union, but can only stay on poorer terms, a senior EU official has said.*

*Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament's Brexit coordinator, said that Brexit can be halted, but if Britain reversed course it should not expect to keep getting its EU budget rebates or opt-outs from key EU rules.*

He told the parliament: "Yesterday, Emmanuel Macron, the new French president, spoke about an open door. That if Britain changes its mind it would find an open door.

"I agree. But like Alice in Wonderland, not all the doors are the same.

"*It will be a brand new door, with a new Europe, a Europe without rebates, without complexity, with real powers and with unity."*

The liberal former prime minister of Belgium is a supporter of much closer integration in the EU, with national governments handing over more powers to Brussels.

Like many in the bloc, Mr Verhofstadt has long been critical of the rebate that then-prime minister Margaret Thatcher secured in the 1980s, which means Britain gets about half of its EU budget contributions back.

Britain also enjoys opt-outs from elements of the EU, including from ever joining the euro currency.

Mr Verhofstadt's comments echo *remarks made by Mr Macron on Tuesday at a joint press conference* with Prime Minister Theresa May.

He said: "Of course the door remains open, always open until the Brexit negotiations come to an end."

He added: "That being said, a sovereign decision was taken by the British people and that is to come out of the European Union and I very much respect the decisions taken by the people, be it by the French people or the British people.

"As a matter of fact in this case it's not for me to say whether or not this decision should be questioned - the decision to leave the European Union - but until the negotiations come to an end, of course there is always the possibility to reopen the door.

"But let us be clear and organised and once the negotiations have started we should be well aware that it'll be more difficult to move backwards."

Mrs May has come under pressure in the wake of the shock election result to moderate her approach to Brexit, with the loss of her majority seen as a rejection of her intention to take Britain out of the single market, exit the customs union and end freedom of movement from the continent.

Speaking alongside Mr Macron, the PM said: "We have been very clear we want to maintain a close relationship and a close partnership with the EU and individual member states into the future, including in the areas we've discussed this evening.

"And I confirmed to President Macron that the timetable for the Brexit negotiation remains on course and will begin next week."

Mrs May said the election revealed "a unity of purpose" among British voters for the Government to get on with Brexit.

Brexit minister Steve Baker said he does not "foresee any change" in the Government's approach to leaving.

The prominent Eurosceptic said: "The reality is, where we stand follows logically from leaving.

"So if we are leaving, what we need to do is do it smoothly and successfully and gain economic benefit.

"If we are having economic benefit that means we need to be able to control our trade policy. So that's where I think we should be."

Pressed on the issue of the customs union he said: "These are decisions which the Government will have to take, but I'm quite clear and I've made my position public in the past."

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/brita...-on-worse-terms-guy-verhofstadt-says-10915293

So I hope that corrects you on this issue.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> It was in the guardian newspaper and all over BBC News and Sky News.
> *Britain could only stay in EU on worse terms, Guy Verhofstadt says*
> European Parliament's Brexit coordinator says the "door is open", but "like Alice in Wonderland, not all the doors are the same".
> 
> Britain is welcome to change its mind and remain in the European Union, but can only stay on poorer terms, a senior EU official has said.
> 
> Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament's Brexit coordinator, said that Brexit can be halted, but if Britain reversed course it should not expect to keep getting its EU budget rebates or opt-outs from key EU rules.
> 
> He told the parliament: "Yesterday, Emmanuel Macron, the new French president, spoke about an open door. That if Britain changes its mind it would find an open door.
> 
> "I agree. But like Alice in Wonderland, not all the doors are the same.
> 
> "It will be a brand new door, with a new Europe, a Europe without rebates, without complexity, with real powers and with unity."
> 
> The liberal former prime minister of Belgium is a supporter of much closer integration in the EU, with national governments handing over more powers to Brussels.
> 
> Like many in the bloc, Mr Verhofstadt has long been critical of the rebate that then-prime minister Margaret Thatcher secured in the 1980s, which means Britain gets about half of its EU budget contributions back.
> 
> Britain also enjoys opt-outs from elements of the EU, including from ever joining the euro currency.
> 
> Mr Verhofstadt's comments echo *remarks made by Mr Macron on Tuesday at a joint press conference* with Prime Minister Theresa May.
> 
> He said: "Of course the door remains open, always open until the Brexit negotiations come to an end."
> 
> He added: "That being said, a sovereign decision was taken by the British people and that is to come out of the European Union and I very much respect the decisions taken by the people, be it by the French people or the British people.
> 
> "As a matter of fact in this case it's not for me to say whether or not this decision should be questioned - the decision to leave the European Union - but until the negotiations come to an end, of course there is always the possibility to reopen the door.
> 
> "But let us be clear and organised and once the negotiations have started we should be well aware that it'll be more difficult to move backwards."
> 
> Mrs May has come under pressure in the wake of the shock election result to moderate her approach to Brexit, with the loss of her majority seen as a rejection of her intention to take Britain out of the single market, exit the customs union and end freedom of movement from the continent.
> 
> Speaking alongside Mr Macron, the PM said: "We have been very clear we want to maintain a close relationship and a close partnership with the EU and individual member states into the future, including in the areas we've discussed this evening.
> 
> "And I confirmed to President Macron that the timetable for the Brexit negotiation remains on course and will begin next week."
> 
> Mrs May said the election revealed "a unity of purpose" among British voters for the Government to get on with Brexit.
> 
> Brexit minister Steve Baker said he does not "foresee any change" in the Government's approach to leaving.
> 
> The prominent Eurosceptic said: "The reality is, where we stand follows logically from leaving.
> 
> "So if we are leaving, what we need to do is do it smoothly and successfully and gain economic benefit.
> 
> "If we are having economic benefit that means we need to be able to control our trade policy. So that's where I think we should be."
> 
> Pressed on the issue of the customs union he said: "These are decisions which the Government will have to take, but I'm quite clear and I've made my position public in the past."
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/amp/brita...-on-worse-terms-guy-verhofstadt-says-10915293


Does that prove Brexit was such great idea in the first place?

Or that Germany/ France see Brexit as opportunity handed them on a plate?
It seems like they would have the cake and eat it.
It is called The City.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Does that prove Brexit was such great idea in the first place?
> 
> Or that Germany/ France see Brexit as opportunity handed them on a plate?
> It seems like they would have the cake and eat it.
> It is called The City.


So if the UK changes its mind you are happy staying in the EU on worse terms and having to adopt the Euro? This is what is on offer if the UK changes its mind.

If we leave which is what is happening it will be as much of an orderly exit as possible as this is what both the UK and EU negotiators are working on and aiming for.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> So if the UK changes its mind you are happy staying in the EU on worse terms and having to adopt the Euro? This is what is on offer.
> 
> If we leave which is what is happening it will be as much of an orderly exit as possible as this is what both the UK and EU and working at.


Are you surprised?
After all we pulled the trigger. ..

We had pound, no Schengen, a bit of special treatment. Now no more.

So voting for Brexit did irreversible damage .

Happy now?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Are you surprised?
> After all we pulled the trigger. ..
> 
> We had pound, no Schengen, a bit of special treatment. Now no more.
> 
> So voting for Brexit did irreversible damage .
> 
> Happy now?


Yes I am happy.

I said I would always vote to leave and did.

We are never going to agree on this issue or matter @cheekyscrip.

You asked if I am surprised. No. It just shows that the EU leaders are big, power hungry bullies.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Yes I am happy.
> 
> I said I would always vote to leave and did.
> 
> We are never going to agree on this issue or matter @cheekyscrip.


You are. Great.
Regardless what may come. 
Maybe for you it will not be as bad as for us here.
Or those in car industry .
E








Expats 
EU nationals .
NHS.
Universities.
Environment.

Really???


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> So voting for Brexit did irreversible damage .


We don't know yet do we as we haven't left yet have we.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> You are. Great.
> Regardless what may come.
> Maybe for you it will not be as bad as for us here.
> Or those in car industry .
> E
> View attachment 315480
> 
> Expats
> EU nationals .
> NHS.
> Universities.
> Environment.
> 
> Really???


They are negotiating a deal at the moment for Expats and EU nationals aren't they in phase one of the negotiations. You are jumping the gun as Davis and Barnier agreed yesterday that they will sort this so it suits all nationals and will come to an agreement as quickly as possible on this issue. Give them a chance they have only just started negotiating.


----------



## Happy Paws2

It's going to be interesting, we are going in expecting to get what we want and the EU are just going to laugh at us.

And as for trading with other countries, they know how desperate we are to trade with them, so it's not going to be cheap.

_Edited for....... missing a word out._


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> It's going to be interesting, we are going in expecting to get want and the EU are just going to laugh at us.
> 
> And as for trading with other countries, they know how desperate we are to trade with them, so it's not going to be cheap.


Yes. They would laugh. 
Germany, France, Belgium, Ireland, Austria, Netherlands, Spain. ...they all will do well on Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> They are negotiating a deal at the moment for Expats and EU nationals aren't they in phase one of the negotiations. You are jumping the gun as Davis and Barnier agreed yesterday that they will sort this so it suits all nationals and will come to an agreement as quickly as possible on this issue. Give them a chance they have only just started negotiating.


The thing is NO ONE SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUT IN THIS POSITION IN THE FIRST PLACE. Even in the unlikely event a "deal" is made people have been put in this position of uncertainty for a year. Many have given up and already left.

It doesn't help when xenophobic types like May are so obsessed about reducing immigration they're prepared to sacrifice the economy to achieve their aims.

These are PEOPLE we're talking about, they're still people even if they aren't British.

EDIT- This is not personal directed at you SWC, but this government's behaviour and attitude, treating people like bargaining chips and not human beings with feelings.


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes. They would laugh.
> Germany, France, Belgium, Ireland, Austria, Netherlands, Spain. ...they all will do well on Brexit.


More like India, Australia and all those countries we will need to negotiate with anew. Those countries where we were already had some form of "trade agreement" as part of the EU. What is it they are pushing for again, relaxation of visa requirements wasn't it. That's going to be simply the start. A market of 65 million does not have the same negotiating strength as a market of 510 million.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> More like India, Australia and all those countries we will need to negotiate with anew. Those countries where we were already had some form of "trade agreement" as part of the EU. What is it they are pushing for again, relaxation of visa requirements wasn't it. That's going to be simply the start. A market of 65 million does not have the same negotiating strength as a market of 510 million.


Absolutely. Add those too.
And USA when they get hold of US dollar clearing business.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Now even Philip Hammond can't agree with May's Brexit plans.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40339331


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Now even Philip Hammond can't agree with May's Brexit plans.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40339331
> View attachment 315529


Oh , no! Prioritise kicking out EU nationals, ban them, realise you need those people, realise they are not coming back, bring replacement from nonEU countries, that is the best way of dealing with immigration!

Who cares about economy?
( that is until it hits your pint, then we will have riots ....).


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> as long as the UK leaves the EU like what I voted for I am not really bothered on what terms etc as long as the UK leaves.


I am very suprised to read that SW
I still want very much for us to leave the E.U. but _I am concerned on what the terms will be. In an ideal world we should be getting something like what the people voted for. But I feel we will be getting what the Tories want, which won't be the same. But I live in hope, and only time will tell.

But I very much doubt it will be anything like this I found ._


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> _But I very much doubt it will be anything like this I found ._


Well if you voted for that, you failed to comprehend what the EU is.

What you voted for lower living standards than within the EU, poorer NHS services, no change to schools etc, poorer quality of life, no change to UK democracy as we still had it and less ability to hold our leaders to account. We've seen the social cohesion from the referendum.. We already made our own laws and controlled our nation. So remind me again, can you tell us why did you vote to leave using reality rather than propaganda?

Unless you can explain how leaving is meant to accomplish those points as in 480 pages, you haven't so far


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> Well if you voted for that, you failed to comprehend what the EU is.


Thanks Goblin for enlighting me on what I voted for, I have never said on this forum my reasons for wanting to leave the E.U. and further more I don't intend to.We all have our reasons for voting to leave, same as you have your reasons for wanting to stay in the E.U. That is up to every to make up their own mind, which we all are entitled to do.

I didn't say that they were my reasons for staying , and just because I put that on doesn't mean that they are.
It was just used as an example.


----------



## Goblin

Honeys mum said:


> I have never said on this forum my reasons for wanting to leave the E.U.


You've made it blatantly clear unless you post things and then try to support those posts without believing in them.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> I am very suprised to read that SW
> I still want very much for us to leave the E.U. but _I am concerned on what the terms will be. In an ideal world we should be getting something like what the people voted for. But I feel we will be getting what the Tories want, which won't be the same. But I live in hope, and only time will tell.
> 
> But I very much doubt it will be anything like this I found ._


Not having a go at you at all, but looking at those as objectively as I can, there's not one that will be delivered by Brexit.


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> Not having a go at you at all, but looking at those as objectively as I can, there's not one that will be delivered by Brexit.


I totally agree with you Arnie83, I think we will get a totally different Brexit now than what was expected.
That is just something i found on a friends FB page.


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> You've made it blatantly clear unless you post things and then try to support those posts without believing in them.


I will repeat this only once more, I have never put on this forum my reasons for voting leave.

Without being rude (which is something I have never been on PF,may I suggest you put me on ignore, and I shall be doing the same with you.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> It just shows that the EU leaders are big, power hungry bullies.


How so? They are doing no more than they told us all along - that if we triggered Article 50 we have to abide by the EU rules on leaving. Those rules give the EU total control over the leaving process. The told us many, many times that if left, we could not expect to retain membership benefits except on EU terms, and that agreeing those terms would involve hefty concessions on our part. Not theirs. Remember, they are seeking to secure the best deal for EU citizens, and they also hold all the negotiating cards (and expertise, too). Quite honestly, I find it rather frustrating that our politicians are still projecting the image that we can go into negotiations and twist the EU arm into giving us whatever deal we want. The reality is we're there cap-in-hand to get whatever the EU chooses to give us.



Honeys mum said:


> I am very suprised to read that SW
> I still want very much for us to leave the E.U. but _I am concerned on what the terms will be. In an ideal world we should be getting something like what the people voted for. But I feel we will be getting what the Tories want, which won't be the same. But I live in hope, and only time will tell.
> 
> But I very much doubt it will be anything like this I found ._


None of those points are anything to do with the EU in anything other than superficially in a psychological sense, though. All are either things we already had, never lost, or had the power to do ourselves. Blaming any of them on the EU was just political scapegoating designed to disguse the failures/reluctance of our own politicians to sort out difficult issues.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> I totally agree with you Arnie83, I think we will get a totally different Brexit now than what was expected.
> That is just something i found on a friends FB page.


Please, call me Arnie.


----------



## KittenKong

Rubbish. You forget this government unilaterally decided to leave the EU following a referendum based on xenophobia and lies. See Honey's Mum's uploaded image as a classic example.

Have you not forgotten the threat of a war with Spain? Exactly what being a member of the EU and its predecessors seeked to avoid which it successfully did. Now leaving the EU gives the UK opportunity to threaten war on a former member state. And you accuse the EU of being bullies?!

Indeed I read today a letter on the subject saying they voted leave due to the NHS pledge on the big red bus!

The EU didn't ask the UK to leave.

May believed she could dictate her terms to the 27 member states. She was wrong and would have still been wrong had she won her predicted landslide majority.

She's having enough trouble seeking support from the likeminded DUP let alone the 27 member states, even lying by saying an alliance deal had been made several days ago which the DUP denied!

The DUP are reportedly claiming they should be shown respect and not be taken for granted.

Such skills May clearly lacks in.


----------



## KittenKong

Got to admit I thought exactly the same!


----------



## Elles

Lol. She'll probably sack her dresser and jump on it when she realises. :Hilarious

Be funny if the Queen has set a new trend at her age though.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Got to admit I thought exactly the same!
> View attachment 315567


It shows clearly that she is trying to signal something..beyond words she had to read...

But regardless of experts' warning and votes in last election, hard Brexit it is.
Britain will have custom tariffs, which will make it Great Again.

Ah, and freedom of movement...into outer space?


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Got to admit I thought exactly the same!
> View attachment 315567


Wow look at that. I know it's rumoured she supported Brexit, but to publicly show she envisages it becoming just a five state union is very bold. Wonder what she knows that we don't?


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Wow look at that. I know it's rumoured she supported Brexit, but to publicly show she envisages it becoming just a five state union is very bold. *Wonder what she knows that we don't?*


Perhaps we'll find out when Michael Gove leaks the information to the Sun.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Got to admit I thought exactly the same!
> View attachment 315567


So the Queen is predicting that all that will be left of the EU is 5 states because of the way she dressed today. How interesting that would be if she is predicting this and it became true.


----------



## Elles

There were more than just the 5 flowers we can see in the photo. Still not many though.


----------



## Satori

Honeys mum said:


> I have never said on this forum my reasons for wanting to leave the E.U. and further more I don't intend to.


Good for you. I don't blame you. There's utterly no point explaining on here with all the mind-readers who will tell you that your reasons don't count because underneath it all you are a closet racist or a gullible thicko or both.

My oldest and dearest friend passionately believes we should remain. He votes labour too btw. And yet, we are able to have intelligent debate on the issue. We can both learn from each other's perspective and refine our own paradigms, while still retaining (on-balance) our original convictions, sometimes challenged and sometimes reinforced.

It's shame that any effort at intelligent debate on the topic here is swiftly shut down by the usual suspects.

Over and out for a while.....


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Over and out for a while.....


Where you going?
Are you ok?


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> Where you going?
> Are you ok?


Just caught me before I signed off. Yes, thank you so much for asking. I just fancy spending the summer doing real things rather then virtual things. I'll be gardening and painting and driving a lot, barbecuing and depleting my wine cellar, reading things on paper rather than iPads. Back to on-line life when it's too cold to do 'owt else.

'Tis a funny thing. When I worked for a living (in theory) it never seemed a waste of a day to hang around on forums. Social not-working as it were. Now that it is my own time I am wasting it starts to feel more precious the older I get.

Ttfn.


----------



## rona

Have fun


----------



## KittenKong

May remains completely deluded, believing her hard Brexit will unite the country.

Sensible advice from a sensible Tory politician, Lord Micheal Heseltine.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...question-lord-michael-heseltine-a7800566.html









With opposition to Brexit as strong as ever several rallies are taking place up and down the country on Friday June 23rd and Saturday June 24th.

Some examples here:


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-negotiations-talks-theresa-may-a7799441.html


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Labour and Conservative promised brexit.

Lib dem didn't.

What did the majority vote for? :Yawn

I'm sure Mr Papiewski will still do well in Poland. He seems to be an admirable, hardworking man, who was keen on integration and the British way of life. It's a shame.  Hopefully we will find out before much longer what is happening with our citizens and workers. I believe the majority whether they voted leave or remain, don't want settled Eu workers and families thrown out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

:Bored @KittenKong 
I showed you two days ago with proof that if the UK changes its mind EU leaders have said it will be on worse terms. So staying in the EU does not make us better off.

So you are having a summer of fretting because we are leaving the EU. I can think of better things to do this summer, like enjoying it and going on holiday. On that note like @Satori has done I am signing off anything virtual for the summer and doing things in the real world.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> :Bored @KittenKong
> I showed you two days ago with proof that if the UK changes its mind EU leaders have said it will be on worse terms. So staying in the EU does not make us better off.
> 
> So you are having a summer of fretting because we are leaving the EU. I can think of better things to do this summer, like enjoying it and going on holiday. On that note like @Satori has done I am signing off anything virtual for the summer and doing things in the real world.


Gosh, I'd thought you'd be celebrating "Independence Day". This idea of remaining under "worse" conditions is pure leave scaremongering to discourage people from changing their minds.

I would personally welcome more integration with the rest of Europe and adopting the Euro so I have to disagree they would be "worse" conditions.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Gosh, I'd thought you'd be celebrating "Independence Day".


Nah. I am having a holiday in Europe.


> idea of remaining under "worse" conditions is pure leave scaremongering to discourage people from changing their minds.


Whatever. I showed you the 3 sources of this report and what was said and that is the best you can come up with.


> adopting the Euro


 I am proud of the pound sterling and the country I live in so no I would protest in adopting such measures and so would many other people.

Anyway I only replied because you caught me as I was signing out of my account. Have a nice summer on here going around in circles on Brexit.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> This idea of remaining under "worse" conditions is pure leave scaremongering to discourage people from changing their minds.


Did you not see Guy Verhofstadt say it?

There's plenty of clips of his actual words. It is *not* leave scaremongering


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> Have a nice summer


You too!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Nah. I am having a holiday in Europe.Whatever. I showed you the 3 sources of this report and what was said and that is the best you can come up with.
> I am proud of the pound sterling and the country I live in so no I would protest in adopting such measures and so would many other people.
> 
> Anyway I only replied because you caught me as I was signing out of my account. Have a nice summer on here going around in circles on Brexit.


I strongly disagree adapting to closer EU terms would be worse than Brexit.

Nevertheless, have a great holiday SWC.


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> Good for you. I don't blame you. There's utterly no point explaining on here with all the mind-readers who will tell you that your reasons don't count because underneath it all you are a closet racist or a gullible thicko or both.


Funny isn't it, the only reasons people give for leaving and push are those which are shown to be false. Suddenly the same people posting those reasons haven't expressed their reasons for leaving. Still waiting for reasons based in facts.



> My oldest and dearest friend passionately believes we should remain. He votes labour too btw. And yet, we are able to have intelligent debate on the issue.


Intelligent debate requires reasoning rather than false propaganda.



Elles said:


> Labour and Conservative promised brexit. Lib dem didn't. What did the majority vote for? :Yawn


Seem to remember things like the state of the UK, dementia tax etc and a load of other stuff was also part of the election. People have also, falsely been told article 50 was a point of no return. Interestingly the party pushing brexit most as part of the election campaign lost their existing majority.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I showed you two days ago with proof that if the UK changes its mind EU leaders have said it will be on worse terms. So staying in the EU does not make us better off.


Guy Verhofstadt said that, largely I suspect because he has always disliked the rebate that we get on our contributions. But he has not been supported by any other EU / European 'leader' as far as I know.

I think if the UK did revoke Article 50, then we would simply carry on as before. Legally, we would not have left, there would have been no change to current EU rules and Treaties, and therefore any suggestion by Verhofstadt that the terms would worsen is unfounded.

I don't, though, think we will find out one way or the other, because I can't see A50 being revoked. The people spoke a year ago, and any changes of mind will not be permitted. We are leaving. Should we want to rejoin at any time in the future then the terms would certainly be worse than we have now, because we actually have a very sweet deal.


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> The people spoke a year ago, and any changes of mind will not be permitted. We are leaving. Should we want to rejoin at any time in the future then the terms would certainly be worse than we have now, because we actually have a very sweet deal.


The people spoke a year ago and cannot agree as to what they agreed to.


----------



## Creativecat

I cannot believe what Teresa may has offered is still not enough for mr junker. How dare they


----------



## Elles

Creativecat said:


> I cannot believe what Teresa may has offered is still not enough for mr junker. How dare they


I think it's best to read various statements and opinions on this really. It looks as though they're messing about with it, as looking deeper into it, unfortunately TM hasn't really offered anything it seems.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Creativecat said:


> I cannot believe what Teresa may has offered is still not enough for mr junker. How dare they


Me neither. This is exactly why Mrs May said ,"no deal is better than a bad deal". No doubt it'll be her fault though.


----------



## KittenKong

Creativecat said:


> I cannot believe what Teresa may has offered is still not enough for mr junker. How dare they


No it certainly isn't. I 100% agree with Junker.

No "cut off" point for one thing and continues to treat EU nationals as bargaining chips.

If she offers citizens of five years or more the "privilege" of being allowed to stay in the UK what about those who entered the UK perfectly legally to live and work under five years ago? Will they become illegal immigrants overnight due to records showing they entered the UK in 2013 and not 2012?

The treatment of EU citizens has been absolutely disgusting. Don't forget they weren't permitted to vote in the referendum, nor were the majority of UK citizens living across Europe.

And hopes and dreams of us retiring abroad has now well and truly gone....


----------



## Elles

Dr Pepper said:


> Me neither. This is exactly why Mrs May said ,"no deal is better than a bad deal". No doubt it'll be her fault though.


I think we might find that it is tbh. What was put forward was too vague to be accepted. A toe in the water if you like and want be generous, rather than an actual offer. It wasn't expected to be accepted from what I can gather.

Given our current situation, if that sort of thing can be avoided it would be best. Political games aren't really welcome right now.


----------



## KittenKong

Excellent article from George Osborne. Yes, I'll always give credit where it's due.
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...rally-allow-eu-citizens-to-stay-a3571591.html


----------



## Dr Pepper

Elles said:


> I think we might find that it is tbh. What was put forward was too vague to be accepted. A toe in the water if you like and want be generous, rather than an actual offer. It wasn't expected to be accepted from what I can gather.
> 
> Given our current situation, if that sort of thing can be avoided it would be best. Political games aren't really welcome right now.


What I read, and it's not masses to be honest, was Mrs May's refusal that part of the deal would include the ECJ having precedence over our courts. Obviously that's a ridiculous condition for them to ask for and the epitome of a "bad deal".


----------



## Odin_cat

Dr Pepper said:


> What I read, and it's not masses to be honest, was Mrs May's refusal that part of the deal would include the ECJ having precedence over our courts. Obviously that's a ridiculous condition for them to ask for and the epitome of a "bad deal".


Not read much either, but if the British courts had precedence over EU migrants rights wouldn't that mean the UK could just change their minds at any time? Farir enough that the EU want to avoid that.


----------



## Creativecat

Why don't poeple accept what the uk voted for last year . It's sad the uber left can't get behind the uks intensions but to be fair I think TM hasn't done herself or the uk any favours anyway . From wht I gleened is that they want the EU citizens to have the right to bring over who they damn well like with a pulse to join them. Why don't we just lie down down and let them all run rough shot over the uk ffs., and that's not even considerating the non EUs that have
Decided to join the uk . What a mess we have created . Maybe when the uk population hits 65million we mite be granted to sit down and maybe comment again on the future of the uk , if it doesn't offend anyone


----------



## KittenKong

While of course they'll be a hardcore of Brexiteers who want out regardless of the consequences I'm sure a good many will be feeling the way this woman does.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...n-and-now-want-the-uk-to-remain-a3571276.html


----------



## Jesthar

Creativecat said:


> *Why don't poeple accept what the uk voted for last year .* It's sad the uber left can't get behind the uks intensions but to be fair I think TM hasn't done herself or the uk any favours anyway . From wht I gleened is that they want the EU citizens to have the right to bring over who they damn well like with a pulse to join them. Why don't we just lie down down and let them all run rough shot over the uk ffs., and that's not even considerating the non EUs that have
> Decided to join the uk . What a mess we have created


What exactly would that be, then? In _your_ opinion, of course, given that no-one seems to really have a clue exactly what was meant by 'Leave the EU'.

Or do you mean people voted for the right to kick all the foreign born out, regardless of length of residency and level of contribution to the economy, on a whim if we so desired?



Creativecat said:


> Maybe when the uk population hits 65million we mite be granted to sit down and maybe comment again on the future of the uk , if it doesn't offend anyone


It did that a couple of years ago...


----------



## Goblin

Creativecat said:


> From wht I gleened is that they want the EU citizens to have the right to bring over who they damn well like with a pulse to join them.


Define bring over who they like. Any person brought over will need to be supported by the person currently in the UK and have no claim to UK benefits. A judgement which is backed by the european court of justice where other countries refusing benefits have won when taken to court over it.


----------



## KittenKong

Creativecat said:


> Why don't poeple accept what the uk voted for last year . It's sad the uber left can't get behind the uks intensions but to be fair I think TM hasn't done herself or the uk any favours anyway . From wht I gleened is that they want the EU citizens to have the right to bring over who they damn well like with a pulse to join them. Why don't we just lie down down and let them all run rough shot over the uk ffs., and that's not even considerating the non EUs that have
> Decided to join the uk . What a mess we have created . Maybe when the uk population hits 65million we mite be granted to sit down and maybe comment again on the future of the uk , if it doesn't offend anyone


That's rather one sided isn't it? How about those" nasty Brits" who "invade" areas of Europe causing havoc by their "binge drinking" and the likes?

Personally I want as much right to live and retire in another EU county as much as EU citizens have done in the UK, before the EU referendum at any rate.

Still, we enjoyed it while it lasted.


----------



## rona

Looked like Angela Merkel seemed pretty happy with the initial meeting and on a side note..................Petrol has gone down again


----------



## Goblin

No secondary sources at the moment..

"Foreign investors could sue UK for billions over Brexit"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...v?shareToken=17b8b6d778686d02493363a4de8abd68


----------



## Creativecat

KittenKong said:


> That's rather one sided isn't it? How about those" nasty Brits" who "invade" areas of Europe causing havoc by their "binge drinking" and the likes?
> 
> Personally I want as much right to live and retire in another EU county as much as EU citizens have done in the UK, before the EU referendum at any rate.
> 
> Still, we enjoyed it while it lasted.


So your saying the nasty Brits that invade EU country's with there binge drinking and bad habits basically holiday makers from hell that go home after 2 weeks . We in return have to tolerate 3 million EU citizens 
Impacting on our society with all the social and economic implications and not question anything I find abit rich to be honest


----------



## Dr Pepper

Odin_cat said:


> Not read much either, but if the British courts had precedence over EU migrants rights wouldn't that mean the UK could just change their minds at any time? Farir enough that the EU want to avoid that.


Not really fair enough is it. UK expats living in the EU would have the same threat hanging over them. Just the same as if you have a green card and reside in the USA. Would anyone emigrating to say USA, Australia, New Zealand, Russia etc etc expect their countries laws to supersede the country they moved to? It's just absolute nonsense.


----------



## Jesthar

Creativecat said:


> So your saying the nasty Brits that invade EU country's with there binge drinking and bad habits basically holiday makers from hell that go home after 2 weeks . We in return have to tolerate 3 million EU citizens
> Impacting on our society with all the social and economic implications and not question anything I find abit rich to be honest


Swing and a miss. KK was referring to the large British Ex-Pat communities found in many EU countries, particularly France and Spain I believe.

Or are you saying you'd be happy for all Brits who have made use of their EU status to retire abroad in EU countries to be unceremoniously rounded up and kicked back to the UK too?


----------



## rona

Oddly with all these people not coming here and all those frightened people going home, our population has exploded to 65.6 million, a rise of over half a million in just one year.........now how does that happen?


----------



## Dr Pepper

rona said:


> Oddly with all these people not coming here and all those frightened people going home, our population has exploded to 65.6 million, a rise of over half a million in just one year.........now how does that happen?


Apparently we are breeding like rabbits and not dying soon enough. That's part of it so I heard.


----------



## Creativecat

Goblin said:


> Define bring over who they like. Any person brought over will need to be supported by the person currently in the UK and have no claim to UK benefits. A judgement which is backed by the european court of justice where other countries refusing benefits have won when taken to court over it.


The parents sons daughters cousins uncles aunts there pets as I said basically anyone one with a pulse to which they already do. Iv seen it implimented many times over .can you seriously see us refusing any ability to claim what they wish for tht won't happen here we will bend over bkwards to accommodate everyone's wishes so,s not to offend the uber left that will scream
Unfair trust me.
It's funny a few months back when the french elections was on shock horror le penn was lambasted for putting her country first . Heaven forbid that should of happened .


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Oddly with all these people not coming here and all those frightened people going home, our population has exploded to 65.6 million, a rise of over half a million in just one year.........now how does that happen?


Simple answer.. Immigration has nothing really to do with the EU but the government. Anyone who voted to leave as it would make an impact on immigration was lied to and fell for it.


----------



## Goblin

Creativecat said:


> The parents sons daughters cousins uncles aunts there pets as I said basically anyone one with a pulse to which they already do. Iv seen it implimented many times over .can you seriously see us refusing any ability to claim what they wish for tht won't happen here we will bend over bkwards to accommodate everyone's wished SOS not to offend the uber left that will scream
> Unfair trust me.
> It's funny a few months back when the french elections was on shock horror le penn was lambasted for putting her country first . Heaven forbid that should of happened .


So again, nothing to do with the EU. EU doesn't allow it, leaving will not change it.


----------



## Odin_cat

Dr Pepper said:


> Not really fair enough is it. UK expats living in the EU would have the same threat hanging over them. Just the same as if you have a green card and reside in the USA. Would anyone emigrating to say USA, Australia, New Zealand, Russia etc etc expect their countries laws to supersede the country they moved to? It's just absolute nonsense.


EU nationals moved to the UK believing they would have the protection of the ECJ. British nationals in the EU will remain under its jurisdiction.


----------



## rona

Dr Pepper said:


> Apparently we are breeding like rabbits and not dying soon enough. That's part of it so I heard.


https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ticles/overviewoftheukpopulation/february2016

"The annual growth rate between the 1990s and the 2000s more than doubled, up from 0.28% to 0.64%. Uplifts in population growth have generally coincided with an increase in the number of countries holding EU membership."

"The UK population is one of the largest in the European Union".


----------



## Creativecat

Jesthar said:


> Swing and a miss. KK was referring to the large British Ex-Pat communities found in many EU countries, particularly France and Spain I believe.
> 
> Or are you saying you'd be happy for all Brits who have made use of their EU status to retire abroad in EU countries to be unceremoniously rounded up and kicked back to the UK too?


Gauntanamo bay would be a good 
Choice for the hooligans I know tht much .


----------



## Jesthar

Creativecat said:


> Gauntanamo bay would be a good
> Choice for the hooligans I know tht much .


And what of the majority of Brits living abroad who behave in a decent manner? You're OK with them being evicted and sent back the UK?


----------



## Creativecat

Goblin said:


> So again, nothing to do with the EU. EU doesn't allow it, leaving will not change it.


How is it nothing to do with EU 
Surely signed up to this nonsense and allowing it to happen has created this mess.


----------



## Creativecat

Jesthar said:


> And what of the majority of Brits living abroad who behave in a decent manner? You're OK with them being evicted and sent back the UK?


No of course not , but our 1 million and the EU 3 million certainly looks like they have the better deal don't u think


----------



## shadowmare

Creativecat said:


> So your saying the nasty Brits that invade EU country's with there binge drinking and bad habits basically holiday makers from hell that go home after 2 weeks . We in return have to *tolerate* 3 million EU citizens
> *Impacting* on our society with all the *social* and *economic implications *and not question anything I find abit rich to be honest


Tell me more about how hard your life has become due to all of these terrible eu citizens that you have to tolerate


----------



## shadowmare

Creativecat said:


> No of course not , but our 1 million and the EU 3 million certainly looks like they have the better deal don't u think


Difference being that the number of British pensioners is higher than working people... so if you'd now send even half of those EU citizens back to eu and instead take back all of the British from eu, you'd have a smaller work force and more retired people. Would you like that deal?


----------



## Creativecat

shadowmare said:


> Tell me more about how hard your life has become due to all of these terrible eu citizens that you have to tolerate


Are you serious or trying to tease me . Have walks along ur high st recently or book an appointment for the doctors and told to wait 2 weeks ., or shall I go on


----------



## Creativecat

shadowmare said:


> Difference being that the number of British pensioners is higher than working people... so if you'd now send even half of those EU citizens back to eu and instead take back all of the British from eu, you'd have a smaller work force and more retired people. Would you like that deal?[/QUOTHead scratcher moment :Hilarious


----------



## shadowmare

Creativecat said:


> Are you serious or trying to tease me . Have walks along ur high st recently or book an appointment for the doctors and told to wait 2 weeks ., or shall I go on


Am very serious. Have no clue what's going on on your high street. Doing shopping over the weekend all I was terrified about was the number of sunburned Scottish pale men drink screaming "taps aaaaffff!!!". The only reason why I have to wait for my gp appointments is that my gp only works 9am-12pm and 1pm-5.30pm, and closes at 1pm on Tuesdays. There's only one gp in my surgery.


----------



## Creativecat

Head scratcher moment


----------



## rona

shadowmare said:


> Difference being that the number of British pensioners is higher than working people... so if you'd now send even half of those EU citizens back to eu and instead take back all of the British from eu, you'd have a smaller work force and more retired people. Would you like that deal?


Actually Population 16-64 is 63.5%
Those over 64 is 17.7%
the rest are children.

So even if they all went back, which no one wants, there would still be rather more working age than pensioners

As there is also only about 400,000 pensioners living abroad, even if they all came back there would still be rather more workers than pensioners, particularly as the other 800,000 workers would also have to come home


----------



## Creativecat

shadowmare said:


> Am very serious. Have no clue what's going on on your high street. Doing shopping over the weekend all I was terrified about was the number of sunburned Scottish pale men drink screaming "taps aaaaffff!!!". The only reason why I have to wait for my gp appointments is that my gp only works 9am-12pm and 1pm-5.30pm, and closes at 1pm on Tuesdays. There's only one gp in my surgery.


Live in a big town in south london 
With imigration on an industrial level you might understand a little more


----------



## Zaros

Creativecat said:


> Have walks along ur high st recently


When I walk along any high street, no matter where its location might be, I see people. You know, fellow human beings.

What are you seeing?


----------



## Jesthar

Creativecat said:


> Are you serious or trying to tease me . Have walks along ur high st recently or book an appointment for the doctors and told to wait 2 weeks ., or shall I go on


Why not check out how many GPs and NHS staff in general come from overseas/are immigrants? We'll wait.

(Hint: your waiting times will increase further if they go  )


----------



## Goblin

When I walk down a high street I do not see europeans I can say "oh you are an EU immigrant". They are more likely to be in work contributing to society. What I do see is a failure of our governments to actually implement the rules that exist already and blaming it elsewhere.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> I owned a left hooker in Britain,
> On the plus side, I always got in and out kerbside.:Smug


----------



## rona

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

"There are around 1.2 million British born people living in another EU country, according to figures provided by the UN. Around 800,000 will be workers and their dependants. This is much less than the estimated 3.3 million people born in another EU country who now live in the UK, of which 2.1 million are working."


----------



## Creativecat

Zaros said:


> When I walk along any high street, no matter where its location might be, I see people. You know, fellow human beings.
> 
> What are you seeing?


Loads of doppelgängers . And abnormally loads of Europeans . I'm not a xenophob but when is enough enough surely you must see tht fact however uncomfortable it feels


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354
> 
> "There are around 1.2 million British born people living in another EU country, according to figures provided by the UN. Around 800,000 will be workers and their dependants. This is much less than the estimated 3.3 million people born in another EU country who now live in the UK, of which 2.1 million are working."


Ah migrationwatchuk... known as a right-wing pressure group. Whereas other migration studies show positives for migration in terms of society, they somehow do not.


----------



## Elles

shadowmare said:


> Am very serious. Have no clue what's going on on your high street. Doing shopping over the weekend all I was terrified about was the number of sunburned Scottish pale men drink screaming "taps aaaaffff!!!". The only reason why I have to wait for my gp appointments is that my gp only works 9am-12pm and 1pm-5.30pm, and closes at 1pm on Tuesdays. There's only one gp in my surgery.


That's working full time. Mine works 2 mornings and 1 afternoon a week. She's just had to take on more patients as the one who worked 1 day a week has just left. She's morbidly obese and has a lot of time off sick. I dream of the days of 2 weeks to get an appt. it's more likely to nearer 2 months. My husband has been trying to get an appointment for over 2 months now. They've texted him to cancel and rebook 3 times. They may as well do away with gps and change how it works tbh.

I was waiting in the pharmacy last week when a young woman came in with a young child in a pushchair. She asked the pharmacist to examine him as she thought he had chicken pox. They have a consulting room. They took him in there and when they came out the pharmacist had said she thought it was an allergy and recommended piriton. And we get criticised for looking things up on the net? A pharmacist isn't a doctor and whatever his rash is won't be on his records, nor will the medication he was given. Is that really the way forward?

Maybe it is, dunno. Our doctors are all very part time and all white British, our area doesn't have many immigrants to be fair. Ours are more likely to come from Liverpool, or Manchester, than Poland. We like our polish and muslims.


----------



## KittenKong

Creativecat said:


> So your saying the nasty Brits that invade EU country's with there binge drinking and bad habits basically holiday makers from hell that go home after 2 weeks . We in return have to tolerate 3 million EU citizens
> Impacting on our society with all the social and economic implications and not question anything I find abit rich to be honest


I used that as a comparison to your argument against EU citizens, it wasn't my own opinion. The good old media dreamt up the term, "Binge drinking Brits", which goes to show how regard their own citizens.

You also forget many UK citizens have moved abroad who have their own uncertainties. We had provisional plans to retire within the EU. This is now most unlikely to happen.

So, are you actually saying having to "tolerate" 3 million EU citizens is a bad thing? What exactly do you have against them? Many work within the NHS for example and has been well documented it could be detrimental to many hospitals if, "None British" staff are forced to leave.


----------



## Creativecat

Goblin said:


> When I walk down a high street I do not see europeans I can say "oh you are an EU immigrant". They are more likely to be in work contributing to society. What I do see is a failure of our governments to actually implement the rules that exist already and blaming it elsewhere.


The contributing bit is untrue . I wish I could link something but last night I heard abt wht is being contributed by an EU citezen per yr and wht is being extracted and they are totally at odds I do hope someone pulls some statistics up
Or links . If I'm wrong il apologise but I'm sure I'm not


----------



## shadowmare

rona said:


> https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354
> 
> "There are around 1.2 million British born people living in another EU country, according to figures provided by the UN. Around 800,000 will be workers and their dependants. This is much less than the estimated 3.3 million people born in another EU country who now live in the UK, of which 2.1 million are working."


So, 44% of the brits abroad are retired. Of the other 66% some are dependants. 63% of the eu citizens are working. I'll repeat and even change the question (take your time scratching that head) @Creativecat , if you're not happy with such a deal, would you like to send all the eu citizens back to eu and take in all of the British from eu? Take your time.


----------



## shadowmare

Creativecat said:


> The contributing bit is untrue . I wish I could link something but last night I heard abt wht is being contributed by an EU citezen per yr and wht is being extracted and they are totally at odds I do hope someone pulls some statistics up
> Or links . If I'm wrong il apologise but I'm sure I'm not


Why should someone pull out this statistic? If you are using this as an argument, then at least back it up.


----------



## Zaros

Creativecat said:


> Loads of doppelgängers . And abnormally loads of Europeans . I'm not a xenophob but when is enough enough surely you must see tht fact however uncomfortable it feels


I'm a European. My wife is a European. I bet you couldn't tell which one of us was British born and which of us was Finnish born if we passed you on the high street?

Incidentally; Doppelgänger: _An apparition or double of a living person._


----------



## Jesthar

Creativecat said:


> Loads of doppelgängers . And abnormally loads of Europeans . I'm not a xenophob but when is enough enough surely you must see tht fact however uncomfortable it feels


So, basically,

1. All foreigners look alike
2. It's not xenophobia _if_ you deem you are having to put up with what you regard as _too many_ foreigners on your patch.

Interesting viewpoint, certainly...


----------



## rona

shadowmare said:


> So, 44% of the brits abroad are retired. Of the other 66% some are dependants. 63% of the eu citizens are working. I'll repeat and even change the question (take your time scratching that head) @Creativecat , if you're not happy with such a deal, would you like to send all the eu citizens back to eu and take in all of the British from eu? Take your time.


Yes but we have 1.3 million dependant people from the EU against 400,000 of UK people abroad. You don't think those 3.3 million EU people residing in this country will get to pension age and then we'll need ever more workers. *This country is full *


----------



## shadowmare

Creativecat said:


> Loads of doppelgängers . And abnormally loads of Europeans . I'm not a xenophob but when is enough enough surely you must see tht fact however uncomfortable it feels


Yup... hate those effing Europeans! Effing terrible people! Sick of tolerating them! :Rage:Rage Can't even go down my high street without seeing effing European doppelgängers on every corner!:Rage:Rage


----------



## Creativecat

KittenKong said:


> I used that as a comparison to your argument against EU citizens, it wasn't my own opinion. The good old media dreamt up the term, "Binge drinking Brits", which goes to show how regard their own citizens.
> 
> You also forget many UK citizens have moved abroad who have their own uncertainties. We had provisional plans to retire within the EU. This is now most unlikely to happen.
> 
> So, are you actually saying having to "tolerate" 3 million EU citizens is a bad thing? What exactly do you have against them? Many work within the NHS for example and has been well documented it could be detrimental to many hospitals if, "None British" staff are forced to leave.


Tolerate is a strong word I have nothing against controlled immigration atall. But when it has been forced to the British public by all the party's without consultation 
On an epic scale u become dissulutiond with it all . How would Poland feel with 800.000 Brits dumped on there doorstep unregulated and told here you go enjoy I don't think they would be full of cheer in my opinion I think they would be having the same concerns and worries we are having here tht I'm sure


----------



## Creativecat

shadowmare said:


> Yup... hate those effing Europeans! Effing terrible people! Sick of tolerating them! :Rage:Rage Can't even go down my high street without seeing effing European doppelgängers on every corner!:Rage:Rage


The truth is the truth however unpalatable it feels to you :Bag


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Swing and a miss. KK was referring to the large British Ex-Pat communities found in many EU countries, particularly France and Spain I believe.
> 
> Or are you saying you'd be happy for all Brits who have made use of their EU status to retire abroad in EU countries to be unceremoniously rounded up and kicked back to the UK too?


Yeah, lots of NHS hospitals depend on workers from the EU. Asking them to leave would cause an overnight staffing crisis.

And how would they cope if many elderly ex-pats are forced to return to the UK needing hospital treatment?!



Creativecat said:


> Live in a big town in south london
> With imigration on an industrial level you might understand a little more


How do you actually know who are "immigrants" or who are British by birth?


----------



## Creativecat

Jesthar said:


> So, basically,
> 
> 1. All foreigners look alike
> 2. It's not xenophobia _if_ you deem you are having to put up with what you regard as _too many_ foreigners on your patch.
> 
> Interesting viewpoint, certainly...


Doppelgänger was tongue in cheek .
Tbh . It's funny what was said in an earlier post when everyone agrees with the ultra left its all ok but as soon as anyone disagrees your shouted down more worse than Donal trump at a netmums rally


----------



## shadowmare

Creativecat said:


> The truth is the truth however unpalatable it feels to you :Bag


*takes off her mask to reveal her true European doppelgänger face* Surprise! :Woot 
Putting you back on ignore and off I go to search for another job to steal and then maybe go out and cause havoc around Glasgow...


----------



## Dr Pepper

Odin_cat said:


> EU nationals moved to the UK believing they would have the protection of the ECJ. British nationals in the EU will remain under its jurisdiction.


Exactly, how's that in anyway right. UK expats have to abide by the law of the land they now life in, EU expats in the UK don't. Utter rubbish. I can't see how anyone can think that's ok.


----------



## Creativecat

shadowmare said:


> *takes off her mask to reveal her true European doppelgänger face* Surprise! :Woot
> Putting you back on ignore and off I go to search for another job to steal and then maybe go out and cause havoc around Glasgow...


You missed out smashing up a local bus shelter and throwing a hlf eaten kebab at the local takeaway 
Window Puttin me bk on ignore 
I'm inconsolable 
not :Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> *This country is full *


Based on what criteria, may I ask?


----------



## Creativecat

Arnie83 said:


> Based on what criteria, may I ask?


Have a
Look around and use ur own judgment .


----------



## Zaros

Jesthar said:


> So, basically, All foreigners look alike


Only if they're off white in colour.


----------



## Arnie83

Creativecat said:


> Have a
> Look around and use ur own judgment .


If you'll excuse me, I won't be engaging with you on this topic.


----------



## simplysardonic

I've deleted a couple of posts.

Racism will NOT be tolerated.

I'm not following this thread so please be vigilant & report it when it appears.

Thankyou.


----------



## lymorelynn

simplysardonic said:


> I've deleted a couple of posts.
> 
> Racism will NOT be tolerated.
> 
> I'm not following this thread so please be vigilant & report it when it appears.
> 
> Thankyou.


You beat me to it. Totally agree


----------



## Creativecat

Arnie83 said:


> If you'll excuse me, I won't be engaging with you on this topic.


 I respect that .


----------



## Guest

simplysardonic said:


> I've deleted a couple of posts. Racism will NOT be tolerated.
> I'm not following this thread so please be vigilant & report it when it appears.
> Thankyou.





lymorelynn said:


> You beat me to it. Totally agree


Well done mods!


----------



## Goblin

Creativecat said:


> The contributing bit is untrue . I wish I could link something but last night I heard abt wht is being contributed by an EU citezen per yr and wht is being extracted and they are totally at odds I do hope someone pulls some statistics up
> Or links . If I'm wrong il apologise but I'm sure I'm not


You can probably find your link on migrationwatchuk. Unlike other figures from various sources: http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/23/brexit-immigration-cut-will-cost-uk-billions-every-year That's simply using tax as a basis. Let's not forget a high percentage of immigrants also tend to be entrepeneurs who actually contribute things like new businesses and jobs.
http://startups.co.uk/immigrant-entrepreneurs-behind-fantastic-uk-businesses/


----------



## Creativecat

Goblin said:


> You can probably find your link on migrationwatchuk. Unlike other figures from various sources: http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/23/brexit-immigration-cut-will-cost-uk-billions-every-year That's simply using tax as a basis. Let's not forget a high percentage of immigrants also tend to be entrepeneurs who actually contribute things like new businesses and jobs.
> http://startups.co.uk/immigrant-entrepreneurs-behind-fantastic-uk-businesses/


Il read thankyou


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> Only if they're off white in colour.





simplysardonic said:


> I've deleted a couple of posts.
> 
> Racism will NOT be tolerated.
> 
> I'm not following this thread so please be vigilant & report it when it appears.
> 
> Thankyou.


I don't appreciate being called a racist. My post you deleted was a sarcastic reply to a member accusing someone of being racist. That's as bad as being a racist yourself. Maybe you should delete those posts as well?

And how is Zaros's post I've quoted above allowable?

Sorry but your "rules" just don't make sense  particularly when you've accused me of being a racist which is far from the truth.

I'll put faith in you've just misunderstood my post.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354
> 
> "There are around 1.2 million British born people living in another EU country, according to figures provided by the UN. Around 800,000 will be workers and their dependants. This is much less than the estimated 3.3 million people born in another EU country who now live in the UK, of which 2.1 million are working."


I'll just pop this on here as well in case anyone else falls for this rubbish. Migration Watch is right wing anti immigration lobby group - http://powerbase.info/index.php/Migration_Watch_UK


----------



## simplysardonic

Dr Pepper said:


> I don't appreciate being called a racist. My post you deleted was a sarcastic reply to a member accusing someone of being racist. That's as bad as being a racist yourself. Maybe you should delete those posts as well?
> 
> And how is Zaros's post I've quoted above allowable?
> 
> Sorry but your "rules" just don't make sense  particularly when you've accused me of being a racist which is far from the truth.
> 
> I'll put faith in you've just misunderstood my post.


As I have already said, I had not followed this thread as as far as I'm concerned it died a death months ago so have not read each & every comment, I'm relying on members to hit 'report' & am then acting on it.

I didn't get the sarcastic tome of your post I'm afraid.


----------



## noushka05

What has become of our once tolerant country?  
*
Philip Oltermann*‏Verified [email protected]*philipoltermann* 10h10 hours ago

"Unstable and nationalistic social mood": German politicians are now using language
about the UK that used to be preserved for pariah states


----------



## KittenKong

simplysardonic said:


> As I have already said, I had not followed this thread as as far as I'm concerned it died a death months ago so have not read each & every comment, I'm relying on members to hit 'report' & am then acting on it.
> 
> I didn't get the sarcastic tome of your post I'm afraid.


Some of us have attempted an updated thread on the subject, but all have defaulted back to this one for some reason.

All of us need to respect the decisions of the forum moderators and forum owner, regardless of what our views are. Myself included.


----------



## Dr Pepper

simplysardonic said:


> As I have already said, I had not followed this thread as as far as I'm concerned it died a death months ago so have not read each & every comment, I'm relying on members to hit 'report' & am then acting on it.
> 
> I didn't get the sarcastic tome of your post I'm afraid.


Shame you don't read that that you moderate. It would give you a idea as to the tone of posts you deem fit are racist when they are not 

Anyhow. You may have missed it but Brexit negotiations are now underway so this thread is now very much relevant once again. So if you are going to moderate it you'll probably need to follow it


----------



## simplysardonic

Dr Pepper said:


> Shame you don't read that that you moderate. It would give you a idea as to the tone of posts you deem fit are racist when they are not
> 
> Anyhow. You may have missed it but Brexit negotiations are now underway so this thread is now very much relevant once again. So if you are going to moderate it you'll probably need a to follow it


Consider me suitably chastened :Cigar though I did read several of the more recent posts & still decided that several was unsuitable, whether sarcastic or not.


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> I don't appreciate being called a racist.
> * how is Zaros's post I've quoted above allowable*?


Who said it was?
It was merely the inference made from the constant and tiresome postings regarding people of other nationalities.
And if you read back you'll draw that same nasty little conclusion yourself.
Perhaps not, because you did appear to support the member responsible.

In direct relation to other nationals, I believe the key phrase was 'Look around, use your own judgement'
I'm white European and so too is my wife and on the streets of the UK we would simply merge into the throng. Look all you like, we'd simply appear to be white British unless we had olive coloured skin, and then your judgements might obviously be many.


----------



## Dr Pepper

simplysardonic said:


> Consider me suitably chastened :Cigar though I did read several of the more recent posts & still decided that several was unsuitable, whether sarcastic or not.


Fair enough I was only on about mine. So all friends again and put it down to a misunderstanding, probably partly my fault as sarcasm doesn't always come across as such in the written word.


----------



## simplysardonic

Dr Pepper said:


> Fair enough I was only on about mine. So all friends again and put it down to a misunderstanding, probably partly my fault as sarcasm doesn't always come across as such in the written word.


No problem, my sarcasm often gets misinterpreted too


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> And hopes and dreams of us retiring abroad has now well and truly gone....


Nope. Nothing is stopping you from retiring abroad.


----------



## noushka05

Osborne: May single-handedly blocked plan to guarantee EU citizens rights after brexit. ( I wouldn't trust Osborne as far as I could throw him but after Mays 'go home' vans this doesn't surprised in the slightest )


----------



## Creativecat

Me saying look around and make your own judgement is my opinion and I'm allowed to say that I wouldn't say anything that would be offensive or outright racist. Like the other member so rightly said. We are allowed to counter what other members are saying but very mindful of how it's said . I say things in a jokey fashion sometimes but that's only because I'm not so eloquent as others members are and i know that :0)


----------



## noushka05

I'm boggled why many farmers voted for brexit. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.

*Farms hit by labour shortage as migrant workers shun 'racist' UK *

A 20% shortfall in migrant workers relied on to pick fruit and vegetables is blamed on Brexit making the UK seem 'xenophobic'

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ur-shortage-as-migrant-workers-shun-racist-uk


----------



## leashedForLife

*@Creativecat* said,

_The contributing bit [that EU immigrants are WORKING in the U.K., not sponging] is untrue .

I wish I could link something -- but last night I heard abt wht is being contributed by an EU citezen per yr, and wht is being extracted -- & they are totally at odds

I do hope someone pulls some statistics up. Or links . 
If I'm wrong, I'll apologise -- but I'm sure I'm not._
___________________________
.
.
.
*Figures show extent of NHS reliance on foreign nationals | Society ...*
https://www.theguardian.com › Society › NHS
_Jan 26, 2014 - _
_Medical transplants: where staff come from ... reliance by the NHS and community health services in England on foreign nationals, with people ..._


*EU immigration and NHS staff - Full Fact*
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-nhs-staff/
_Jul 11, 2016 - _
_Across the UK, EU immigrants make up 10% of registered doctors and 4% of ... did not trigger a process of existing healthcare workers fleeing the UK ... new restrictions preventing EU-born NHS staff from working in Britain, ..._


*Migrants in the UK Labour Market: An Overview - Migration Observatory*
www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/.../migrants-in-the-uk-labour-market-an-overvie...
_Dec 1, 2016 - _
_The number of foreign-born people of working age in the UK ... Compared to the early 2000s, the presence of foreign-born workers has grown ..._


*NHS staff from overseas: statistics - Commons Library briefing - UK ...*
researchbriefings.parliament.uk › ... › Research publications › Research briefings
_Apr 10, 2017 - _
_12% of NHS staff in England are nationals of a country other than the ... 10% of doctors in England's hospital and community health services._.
.
*EU citizens living in the UK - Full Fact*
https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-citizens-living-uk/
Mar 2, 2017 - 
_That's about 5% of the UK population. A similar proportion were born in the rest of the EU. More recent analysis from the Migration Observatory at the ... EU nationals of working age are more likely to be in work than UK ..._


*Reality Check: How many EU nationals live in the UK? - BBC News*
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36745584
_Jul 8, 2016 - _
_Chart showing EU nationals working in the UK. Of the non-British population from EUcountries, the largest group was ... Of the 27 EU countries, Spain had the most UK nationals with just under 310,000 migrants from the UK ..._


*Are EU migrants really taking British jobs and pushing down wages ...*
https://www.theguardian.com › Politics › Migration
_May 20, 2016 - _
_But more British nationals are in work too - as one analyst says, this is not a zero-sum game. ... Number of EU migrants working in UK rises to record level ... It does say, however, that the size of the youth population - those ..._
_._
_._
A few statistics for ya - number of healthcare staff from OUTSIDE Britain / UK
# of EU citizens working in the UK
Do they REALLY take the jobs of UK cits?..., etc.
.
_._
_._


----------



## Creativecat

Cool beans. Il look at them links but what I can't get is the fruit and a
vegetable pickers theory is how did we get on in the pre war years or upto the 60s and 70s how was there being processed in them days did we have migrant workers then or did we
Make do with our own workforce. This isn't a flippant comment just curious would love a member to enlighten me plz :0)


----------



## noushka05

Creativecat said:


> Cool beans. Il look at them links but what I can't get is the fruit and a
> vegetable pickers theory is how did we get on in the pre war years or upto the 60s and 70s how was there being processed in them days did we have migrant workers then or did we
> Make do with our own workforce. This isn't a flippant comment just curious would love a member to enlighten me plz :0)


Because they are crap jobs & they cant fill them with British workers. Our NHS & social care also depend on EU migrants. This country is going to be well and truly crewed. No wonder we've become a global laughing stock. How the mighty falls, hey?


----------



## Elles

Well we have a Polish community here with Polish stores and Polish workers. A few years back when Polish people were attacked in the UK, people here went to the shops and took them cards and flowers and let our Polish community know they were quite welcome and that we were ashamed of extremists in other areas. We have flown the Polish flag over our guildhall in recognition of their contribution in the Second World War.

Recognising the diverse community is fine imo. I'm not going to walk around pretending Spanish friends are British, they aren't, and my beautiful Spanish bred horse isn't an English Thoroughbred either.

After the recent attack in Finsbury Park, our local mosque members were interviewed and asked if they were frightened. They said no, of course not, everyone is really friendly here.

The police were asked if there has been an increase in hate crime and it was a no. There has been a handful of hateful attacks, but we are also a university city and unfortunately the uni has suffered from racist far right extremists and anti semitism hard left, in its student groups.

Our city has its problems of course, but we have a rich and diverse community. The difference is, it's a smaller place and well integrated in the main. Maybe people should start to look at successfully integrated and happy communities, to see how and why it's worked, instead of the difficult and divided places in order to criticise and stir up hatred. Probably for many areas it's too late though. 

All different - All equal


----------



## Creativecat

noushka05 said:


> Because they are crap jobs & they cant fill them with British workers. Our NHS & social care also depend on EU migrants. This country is going to be well and truly crewed. No wonder we've become a global laughing stock. How the mighty falls, hey?


They might be crap jobs but the veg didnt just climb out the ground and throw themselves into the crates noush. Not sure abt laughing stock as we wouldn't have mass. Migration that we have to be fair we must be doing something rite to attract the hundreds of thousands we do legally and non legal entry


----------



## noushka05

Creativecat said:


> They might be crap jobs but the veg didnt just climb out the ground and throw themselves into the crates noush. Not sure abt laughing stock as we wouldn't have mass. Migration that we have to be fair we must be doing something rite to attract the hundreds of thousands we do legally and non legal entry


Well they're going to have to throw themselves in soon - either that or rot in the ground. We had control of our borders CC. EU agreement in 2004 gave countries power to control borders and people. Remedy was in our hands but May never implemented it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Remember when one of our pf members recalled his experience in Holland, he found staying there to work not easy at all...
So if other EU countries made sure only those who have work, and that not for all! Could stay...why not UK?
There are no freeebies in many EU countries. Unless you have a job you could stay visiting for three months, no benefits, no free housing.

@Elles .... I am sure Polish community appreciated.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
the dude who's currently USDA head *was* guvnor of GA, when the state decided to "tighten up" & prosecute illegal immigrants & discourage migrant workers. // *over $120 Million Dollars Worth of GA fruit & veg & grain, rotted in the fields & orchards & vineyards - no pickers to be had.*
.
.
*The Law Of Unintended Consequences: Georgia's Immigration Law ...*
https://www.forbes.com/.../the-law-of-unintended-consequences-georgias-immigratio...
_May 17, 2012 - _
_By Benjamin Powell. _
_To forgo a repeat of last year, when labor shortages triggered an estimated $140 million in agricultural losses, as crops ..._


*Alabama Illegal Immigrant Crackdown Destroys Farm Business - Mic*
https://mic.com/articles/.../alabama-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-destroys-farm-busin...
_Our agriculture industry is built on illegal labor, and crackdowns on undocumented workers ... On Sunday, the Associated Press reported worker shortages have prompted some Alabama ... Georgia passed a similar immigration law in 2011._

*Fearing a Worker Shortage, Farmers Push Back on Immigration*
https://www.usnews.com/.../fearing-a-worker-shortage-farmers-push-back-on-immigr...
_Apr 24, 2017 - _
_Farming uses a higher percentage of illegal labor than any other U.S. ... ahead with its crackdown on immigrants in the country illegally. April 24 ..._


*Georgia's Harsh Immigration Law Costs Millions in Unharvested Crops ...*
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/.../georgias...immigration.../240774/
_Jun 21, 2011 - _
_If you're not going to let illegal immigrants work, farmers will have to ... Jay Bookman provides some unsurprising news about Georgia's illegal immigration crackdown: ... Thanks to the resulting labor shortage, Georgia farmers have been ... If workers are needed to run a farm, then zero workers is the same ..._


*Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don't want the job - Los ...*
www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/
_Mar 17, 2017 - _
_Trump's immigration crackdown is supposed to help U.S. citizens. For California farmers, it's worsening a desperate labor shortage._
_._
_._
_._
SERVICE JOBS are also highly dependent on migrant labor, immigrants, & even illegal undocumented workers.
restaurants, cooks, waitrons, dishwashers, parking valets, busniks, gol*f* caddies, RNs / LPNs / PCAs / CNAs, home health aides, nannies, babysitters, lawn mowing, painting houses, washing windows, etc, etc, etc... Hotel maids changing beds, laundress / janitor, bar staff, cocktail waitron, cabby, Uber driver, U name it - they do it.
.
.
Most Americans do not want semi-skilled or manual labor jobs. Period. // Somebody's gotta do 'em, & someone has to be willing to EMPLOY that willing labor force.., & pay them.
.
America also needs immigrants to MAKE BABIES & lower the demographic average age - we need young workers to pay taxes to support our aging popn.
Migrants fill that need - like it or lump it, native-born USA cits are making fewer babies & are aging-out of fertility. We need some breeders - not a massive #, but some - to balance the inputs & the extractions, re our retirees / aging Baby-Boomers, disabled popn, & other folks unable to work.
.
edited
Sorry, 'golf' caddies, not "gold" caddies, LOL...
.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Nope. Nothing is stopping you from retiring abroad.


I am wholeheartedly sick and tired of being told that! How do you bloody know what things will be like in 15 years time, or me for that matter?

With free movement our rights to live within the EU was guaranteed. A foreign country won't give visas to people who want to retire unless they're very rich like the good old days where those on modest incomes will be forced to remain in the cold and damp and get lectured into wrapping up warm and wearing wooly hats.

Posts like yours are nothing but patronising. I thought you should know by now I'll NEVER believe in Brexit over my dead body.

Yes, things might be different in 15 years time, none of us know yet, but I prefer to think the worst so I won't be disappointed if I turn out to be right.

Which is why it's best to assume my and other's rights to retire within the EU will end with the ending of free movement.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Osborne: May single-handedly blocked plan to guarantee EU citizens rights after brexit. ( I wouldn't trust Osborne as far as I could throw him but after Mays 'go home' vans this doesn't surprised in the slightest )
> 
> View attachment 315845


Agreed, but to be fair on Osborne he never changed his pro remain position after the referendum unlike the one who sacked him.

He must be having the time of his life being editor of the London Evening Standard!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Yes, things might be different in 15 years time, none of us know yet, but I prefer to think the worst so I won't be disappointed if I turn out to be right.


How sad.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Agreed, but to be fair on Osborne he never changed his pro remain position after the referendum unlike the one who sacked him.
> 
> He must be having the time of his life being editor of the London Evening Standard!


Osborne resigned


----------



## Zaros

Creativecat said:


> did we Make do with our own workforce. This isn't a flippant comment just curious would love a member to enlighten me plz :0)


Back in the era you're obviously referring to, which is before my time, people appeared to possess a completely different set of values. A job was a job regardless of what that job might have entailed, be it cleaning toilets or or sweeping roads on council estates. A job was the means of putting food on the table. A job was the means of taking care of your family. A job was independence and a thing to be proud of whether you were cleaning sh1tty public toilets or sweeping cr4p up from the streets.
Values have changed quite dramatically, as I'm sure you're all too aware, and menial tasks are viewed by many as beneath them and, therefore, humiliating. Menial tasks are often filled by eastern bloc workers because many Brits are too 'proud' to undertake the tasks themselves

I've worked alongside Polish people, Russian people and people from other parts of Europe, they were faultlessly hard working people and I was proud to be considered their colleague despite my position of superiority to theirs.
All these people undertook jobs the English refused to do because, in simple terms, and to quote one infuriating Englishman in particular, _'There's easier ways to earn beer tokens than this' _
The position he had applied for was delivery truck driver but couldn't envisage himself getting his arrogant lazy 4r53 out of bed at 4:00am for 5 days of the week. 6 if he wanted overtime.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> Back in the era you're obviously referring to, which is before my time, people appeared to possess a completely different set of values. A job was a job regardless of what that job might have entailed, be it cleaning toilets or or sweeping roads on council estates. A job was the means of putting food on the table. A job was the means of taking care of your family. A job was independence and a thing to be proud of whether you were cleaning sh1tty public toilets or sweeping cr4p up from the streets.
> Values have changed quite dramatically, as I'm sure you're all too aware, and menial tasks are viewed by many as beneath them and, therefore, humiliating. Menial tasks are often filled by eastern bloc workers because many Brits are too 'proud' to undertake the tasks themselves
> 
> I've worked alongside Polish people, Russian people and people from other parts of Europe, they were faultlessly hard working people and I was proud to be considered their colleague despite my position of superiority to theirs.
> All these people undertook jobs the English refused to do because, in simple terms, and to quote one infuriating Englishman in particular, _'There's easier ways to earn beer tokens than this' _
> The position he had applied for was delivery truck driver but couldn't envisage himself getting his arrogant lazy 4r53 out of bed at 4:00am for 5 days of the week. 6 if he wanted overtime.


What a massive and untrue generalisation.

In our town I could probably name the few non-Brits that life here and they either have their own business or work in shops. And do you know what we still somehow get our bins emptied, roads swept, toilets cleaned and seasonal farmwork taken care off. Must be the fairies doing it.


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> What a massive and untrue generalisation.
> 
> In our town I could probably name the few non-Brits that life here and they either have their own business or work in shops. And do you know what we still somehow get our bins emptied, roads swept, toilets cleaned and seasonal farmwork taken care off. Must be the fairies doing it.


Trivialise, dismiss and call it what you will in your own blinkered way, I was in a position of employing and training people to do the work advertised through the job and recruitment centres and therefore speak from experience.


----------



## Elles

There are hard working Brits starting work at 4am to drive delivery trucks. We were affected by the recession and my husband was one of them. There's been quite the scandal around delivery companies like Yodel and their employment methods. There are also lazy Polish people. If I based my opinion of a whole people on the laziness of one person, or the opinion of one employer, I'd say everyone is lazy or greedy.

Last night on tv, Europeans living here were interviewed about what they thought of the brexit process so far. Perhaps you should watch the interview with hard working Polish, Spanish and Italians and what they thought of it.

A negative opinion of a Brit is just as xenophobic as a negative opinion of anyone else based on the country they were born in.

As a country we are quite kind to our immigrants. Within a relatively short time they are entitled to the same standard of living any native Brit is entitled to and it's often a better standard than they could hope to work for in their home country. People coming here from the Eu do have to have a job, but there are jobs to be had. An added bonus and why Britain is often chosen is the language. Most know at least a little English.

Low paid jobs usually mean rented accommodation. Large poor families from the Eu are often happy to squeeze into fewer rooms than an equivalent Brit would be expected to. Eventually, they earn their status here and can get social housing and help and no longer expect their family to squeeze into a 1 bedroom flat. Eventually the families will grow up and will also need houses. Migrant workers in poorly paid jobs have British born offspring. 

Employing migrant workers on very poor pay and conditions sounds verging on slavery to me. It's been suggested that if we limit migration and prevent the poor from coming here we'll cause illegal immigration and exploitation and not necessarily by the natives. Nasty.

Successful integration is also in part a numbers game. The French, Germans and Italians understood that, our government didn't. Another fine mess we got ourselves into.


----------



## Creativecat

When you say the shitty jobs the English wasnt prepared to do . Do you mean the same jobs advertised in the local job centres at £5.23 an hr . I had all that in the early 90s being forced to go for an interview or you had your benefits cuts.,was a very hard time albeit only for a short period between jobs. Maybe the Eastern Europeans was ideal . Yes they are hardworking but they had the advantage of living with 12 others in a cramped house not ideal il grant you but had an advantage over others and there everoumtimg bills . So there is other dynamics to take into consideration it's not as cut and dry as you so eloquently put it to be fair


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> Trivialise, dismiss and call it what you will in your own blinkered way, I was in a position of employing and training people to do the work advertised through the job and recruitment centres and therefore speak from experience.


Nothing blinkered about it. To say British people won't do certain jobs is simply untrue, and that's a fact I see every day.

I'm sure there are some idle British people, in fact I know there are. But there's also workshy immigrants as well.

Here's a thought, if I said immigrants wouldn't do cleaning and road sweeping because it was benith them, and stated it was a fact, like you have, would you and others on here be calling me racist? I think we know the answer.


----------



## Zaros

Elles said:


> If I based my opinion of a whole people on the laziness of one person, or the opinion of one employer, I'd say everyone is lazy or greedy.
> .


My opinion was based on a whole procession of people, not one, and I can guarantee you that for every ten that stepped foot over the company threshold, 7 of them were convinced there were better ways to earn a living and had no qualms about airing that opinion during their very short training period which they saw fit to terminate.


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> Nothing blinkered about it. .


Really? 

I believe you've already made your views regarding people of other nationalities quite clear. Nothing you can now say in an attempt to justify yourself is likely to impress me.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> I am wholeheartedly sick and tired of being told that! How do you bloody know what things will be like in 15 years time, or me for that matter?
> 
> With free movement our rights to live within the EU was guaranteed. A foreign country won't give visas to people who want to retire unless they're very rich like the good old days where those on modest incomes will be forced to remain in the cold and damp and get lectured into wrapping up warm and wearing wooly hats.
> 
> Posts like yours are nothing but patronising. I thought you should know by now I'll NEVER believe in Brexit over my dead body.
> 
> Yes, things might be different in 15 years time, none of us know yet, but I prefer to think the worst so I won't be disappointed if I turn out to be right.
> 
> Which is why it's best to assume my and other's rights to retire within the EU will end with the ending of free movement.


I am not making any assumptions about you, or your circumstances. I merely pointed out in my very short sentence that you were wrong in saying people won't be able to retire abroad. If you decided to read into that further and think it's patronising towards you then I think that says more about you, than me tbh.

People retire to other countries outside of the EU all of the time. I have no reason to believe that retiring to a European country will be any different to that after the UK leaves.

I plan on doing the same myself.


----------



## Zaros

Creativecat said:


> Eastern Europeans . Yes they are hardworking but they had the advantage of living with 12 others in a cramped house


Really? :Hilarious

All the Polish people, Polish couples/Russians, Russian couples etc I became familiar with through either work or social circles had houses/apartments/flats of their own. 
I don't doubt there were those who were exploited by opportunistic British employers and thus were forced to live in such conditions, but those conditions weren't rife as the media have tried to suggest


----------



## Guest

Creativecat said:


> When you say the shitty jobs the English wasnt prepared to do . Do you mean the same jobs advertised in the local job centres at £5.23 an hr . I had all that in the early 90s being forced to go for an interview or you had your benefits cuts.,was a very hard time albeit only for a short period between jobs. Maybe the Eastern Europeans was ideal . Yes they are hardworking but they had the advantage of living with 12 others in a cramped house not ideal il grant you but had an advantage over others and there everoumtimg bills . So there is other dynamics to take into consideration it's not as cut and dry as you so eloquently put it to be fair


Also in many other rich EU countries the natives are not keen on doing low paid "shitty jobs", so e.g. most berries etc. are being picked By non natives, places will be cleaned By non natives etc. It doesn´t mean that the natives are lazy, they just prefer better paid, non physical jobs. Sometimes housing is provided (for seasonal workers) but sometimes not.

The money they earn is usually much more than what they´d get at home, so all benefit. As long as all get paid at least the minimum. There are enough people abusing non natives, and they don´t get paid even that.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> My opinion was based on a whole procession of people, not one, and I can guarantee you that for every ten that stepped foot over the company threshold, 7 of them were convinced there were better ways to earn a living and had no qualms about airing that opinion during their very short training period which they saw fit to terminate.


I guess that's where your own blinkered view point comes from. You would very rarely have seen all the hard working British people because they are actually out there working and not in need of your services. So I understand why you incorrectly think we are shirkers. Rest assured the vast majority of British people work very hard and are happy to do so.


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> I guess that's where your own blinkered view point comes from. You would very rarely have seen all the hard working British people because they are actually out there working and not in need of your services. So I understand why you incorrectly think we are shirkers. Rest assured the vast majority of British people work very hard and are happy to do so.


Statistics old man.

Statistics!

And, in evidence, it seems that statistics are what the country thrives on. :Cigar


----------



## Elles

7 out 10 left during the training? What were you training them for? The SAS?

If people were actually telling you there were better ways to earn a living, maybe there were. Do you know what they all chose to do instead of working for you?

Basing a negative opinion of a whole people on the actions of one person, one group or one employer and tarring a whole race with the same brush, is just as bad, whether that's an opinion of a Romanian, a Native American, or a Brit. Can you not see that?

Brits work hard in very difficult jobs doing very long hours and not always for great pay and conditions either. That some people didn't want Zaros' crap job, doesn't make the whole country a bunch of layabouts and is a particular insult to every Brit who works hard in a demanding job for low, or for some voluntary workers, no pay.


----------



## Arnie83

Zaros said:


> Really? :Hilarious
> 
> All the Polish people, Polish couples/Russians, Russian couples etc I became familiar with through either work or social circles had houses/apartments/flats of their own.
> I don't doubt there were those who were exploited by opportunistic British employers and thus were forced to live in such conditions, but those conditions weren't rife as the media have tried to suggest


Symptomatic of the whole history of Brexit. A lot of people, I think, formed their views, and voted, on the basis of what they heard down the pub.


----------



## Creativecat

Zaros said:


> Really? :Hilarious
> 
> All the Polish people, Polish couples/Russians, Russian couples etc I became familiar with through either work or social circles had houses/apartments/flats of their own.
> I don't doubt there were those who were exploited by opportunistic British employers and thus were forced to live in such conditions, but those conditions weren't rife as the media have tried to suggest


I agree to a point but a hell of alot of EU citizens got housed by my local authority overstepping people I personally know that have been on council waiting lists for years without so much as an explanation . with there's nothing to see here attitude move along . Any stretch of the imagination that isn't right in all fairness .and this info wasnt gleened down the pub either :0)


----------



## Zaros

Elles said:


> 7 out 10 left during the training? What were you training them for?
> 
> Basing a negative opinion of a whole people on the actions of one person
> 
> Brits work hard


The job type is irrelevant. And again, you appear to be focusing and drawing your conclusions on 'one' person when I clearly posted a 'procession' of examples.

Incidentally, I am, myself, a hardworking Brit. but am sick to the back teeth of reading how people of other nations seem to be getting bad press from just every angle possible.

I just think it's about time people stopped throwing the stones of guilt at people of other nations. They're nothing to do with the problematic economic climate, it wasn't created by them, they're just an innocent part of it.

Oh and by the way, please point out where I personally insulted you.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
it's reached the point here in the States - at least in Mass, *per my personal experience* - that if U aren't foreign-born or lack an accent / unusually-spelt surname, it's hard to GET a job doing something like, say, clean houses.
.
Housecleaning can be well-paid, & it's flexible hours, so i busted my butt trying to GET such work --- as a newly-arrived poverty-stricken unemployed / no benefits person, in July / Aug / Sept of 2012, when i rescued myself from the backwaters of Bucyrus, Ohio, & the bogus job-offer that got me out of Ol' Virginny. // Zero interest, not even *one* inquiry in response to my many on-line ads, locally posted flyers... even my own response to ads SEEKING housecleaners were stonewalled, i was dead in the water. 
.
I even advertised that i'd use non-toxic cleaners [which meant lugging them along] - still no responses. :Arghh That was a very discouraging period. *sniffles* 
.
.
I've been working like a stevedore as a PCA, but at least i've mostly stayed employed... tho the wages suck, frankly. :Meh God help me if my back or my stamina give out.
.
.
.


----------



## Elles

The answer to other nations getting bad press isn't to join in.


----------



## Zaros

Elles said:


> The answer to other nations getting bad press isn't to join in.


If you stop reading hurriedly, and selectively, I think you'll find that I actually wrote 'People of Other nations' a term I much prefer over that now much over used and dirty little word 'Immigrants'


----------



## Elles

The answer to people of other nations getting bad press isn't to join in.


----------



## Goblin

Creativecat said:


> I agree to a point but a hell of alot of EU citizens got housed by my local authority overstepping people I personally know that have been on council waiting lists for years without so much as an explanation . with there's nothing to see here attitude move along . Any stretch of the imagination that isn't right in all fairness .and this info wasnt gleened down the pub either :0)


Which brexit does nothing to solve. That is the problem. leaving Brexit and blaming "free movement" does nothing to solve any problems simply damages the UK. The leave campaign promoted xenophobia and played to it blaming problems on the EU instead of the government where the problem actually is.



Zaros said:


> If you stop reading hurriedly, and selectively, I think you'll find that I actually wrote 'People of Other nations' a term I much prefer over that now much over used and dirty little word 'Immigrants'


How about expat, it is after all the same thing.


----------



## Creativecat

:Hilarious


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> Really?
> 
> I believe you've already made your views regarding people of other nationalities quite clear. Nothing you can now say in an attempt to justify yourself is likely to impress me.


Please elaborate? What is it you think I'm trying to justify? I think your confused.

Oh wait, I voted to leave the EU so obviously I'm a racist.


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> Please elaborate? What is it you think I'm trying to justify? I think your confused.
> 
> Oh wait, I voted to leave the EU so obviously I'm a racist.


----------



## Guest

Dr Pepper said:


> I guess that's where your own *blinkered* view point comes from. You would very rarely have seen all the hard working British people because they are actually out there working and *not in* *need of your services*. So I understand why you incorrectly think we are shirkers. Rest assured the vast majority of British people work very hard and are happy to do so.





Elles said:


> 7 out 10 left during the training? What were you training them for? The SAS? If people were actually telling you there were better ways to earn a living, maybe there were. Do you know what they all chose to do instead of working for you? *Basing a negative opinion of a whole people on the actions of one person*, one group or one employer and tarring a whole race with the same brush, is just as bad, whether that's an opinion of a Romanian, a Native American, or a Brit. *Can you not see that?*
> 
> Brits work hard in very difficult jobs doing very long hours and not always for great pay and conditions either. That some people didn't want *Zaros' crap job,* doesn't make the whole country a bunch of layabouts and is a particular insult to every Brit who works hard in a demanding job for low, or for some voluntary workers, no pay.


The only insults made are By you. Zaros very clearly told based on his personal experience that there are jobs most Brits don´t want to do. He never said they wouldn´t do something else, it was you who implied that.

To me these comments you and DrPepper and Creativecat made just don´t make sense, as you are both contradicting your own message, which was in the beginning "Britain doesn´t need non native workers, as British can do all the jobs on their own".

Several people pointed out that this is not the case, and Zaros had even personal experience on the matter, saying that there are certain types of jobs that Brits don´t want to do and employers need non natives.

Now you suddenly say that his job was "crap" to start with and make claims Zaros saying about British being "lazy or shirkers". What is it you are saying then? That there are jobs Brits don´t want to do or not? Or do you just aim at being offensive against Zaros.


----------



## Elles

Have you read any of my posts? Did you look up Fadumo Q Dayib? I haven't said we don't need migrant workers in the UK. I have said that we don't need exploited poorly paid migrant workers in the uk. Or anywhere else for that matter. That was an Eu problem imo. All workers in the Eu should be equal and if Britain was going to be in the Eu we should have taken the Euro too. I am anti the Eu, not anti European.

The reason I took umbrage at the post that implied that Brits were too lazy to start work at 4.30 am as a delivery driver is because my husband did just that. At the time I worked on minimum pay in a shop, starting at 7am to do the newspapers and it included cleaning and stacking shelves as well as serving customers. We were not even permitted to sit down. My friend currently works from 2am stacking shelves in Sainsbury's. We're all British.

I felt it was unfairly tarring all British people with the lazy brush.


----------



## Elles

There are some jobs some people don't want to do. Where they come from is irrelevant. I'd rather clean toilets with a toothbrush if the job was available and I was paid for it, than claim unemployment benefits, or be PM for that matter.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


>


Can you reply in adult and coherent fashion please. I would like to know what you are accusing me of.



MrsZee said:


> The only insults made are By you. Zaros very clearly told based on his personal experience that there are jobs most Brits don´t want to do. He never said they wouldn´t do something else, it was you who implied that.
> 
> To me these comments you and DrPepper and Creativecat made just don´t make sense, as you are both contradicting your own message, which was in the beginning "Britain doesn´t need non native workers, as British can do all the jobs on their own".
> 
> Several people pointed out that this is not the case, and Zaros had even personal experience on the matter, saying that there are certain types of jobs that Brits don´t want to do and employers need non natives.
> 
> Now you suddenly say that his job was "crap" to start with and make claims Zaros saying about British being "lazy or shirkers". What is it you are saying then? That there are jobs Brits don´t want to do or not? Or do you just aim at being offensive against Zaros.


No, simple he is wrong on this. As I said in our area there are very very few immigrants. All the jobs Zaros said Brits won't do Brits are doing, there is no one else to do them. Our town is far from unique in this respect. There is no argument to be had with that because it's a fact.

I would imagine where there is a large migrant population more immigrants do the lower paid and unskilled jobs because there are far more of them. For example you can only have one superstore manager but there's 200 "lower" grade jobs in that store. You also have to remember a very high percentage of our doctors and dentist are immigrants, so it's not just low paid and unskilled work they do. As I said in my first reply to Zaros, he made a massive generalisation which is untrue. I stand by that.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...ls-for-patriotic-press-are-sinister-1-5076657

Absolutely disgusting. It's bad enough 95% of the press backing the Tories.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> 7 out 10 left during the training?





Elles said:


> If people were actually telling you there were better ways to earn a living, maybe there were.


Or they were treated so poorly that they weren't willing to stay. Many immigrants particularly short term, don't have that luxury.


----------



## Goblin

It's funny, at least it would be if it wasn't so sad. All these arguments about immigration but nobody can explain how Brexit will help when it's the government, not the EU which controls immigration. The idea of free movement being totally "free" is false, there are rules it's simply the UK government which has not taken advantage of these rules.


----------



## Creativecat

Goblin said:


> It's funny, at least it would be if it wasn't so sad. All these arguments about immigration but nobody can explain how Brexit will help when it's the government, not the EU which controls immigration. The idea of free movement being totally "free" is false, there are rules it's simply the UK government which has not taken advantage of these rules.


If the government didnt take advantage of the rules why was I fed a lie that the EU had control over migration and couldn't reduce the numbers what cameron and Teresa may couldn't acheive.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> It's funny, at least it would be if it wasn't so sad. All these arguments about immigration but nobody can explain how Brexit will help when it's the government, not the EU which controls immigration. The idea of free movement being totally "free" is false, there are rules it's simply the UK government which has not taken advantage of these rules.


Well for starters you won't be able to just turn up and start working. You won't be sat in a poorer eastern Europe country and decide that'll tomorrow you'll pop over to the UK, stay in cheap accommodation (YMCA, hostel, friends etc), get a job for three months and send most of your wages home. And likewise we won't be able to do that in reverse either.


----------



## Goblin

Creativecat said:


> If the government didnt take advantage of the rules why was I fed a lie that the EU had control over migration and couldn't reduce the numbers what cameron and Teresa may couldn't acheive.


To get you to vote to leave perhaps. To have a scapegoat to explain their own failures. To actually redirect attention to the fact the government doesn't want to reduce immigration due to it's overall benefits to the country. You ask a question.. you voted to leave, surely you should know the answer as you voted for it.



Dr Pepper said:


> Well for starters you won't be able to just turn up and start working. You won't be sat in a poorer eastern Europe country and decide that'll tomorrow you'll pop over to the UK, stay in cheap accommodation (YMCA, hostel, friends etc), get a job for three months and send most of your wages home. And likewise we won't be able to do that in reverse either.


Why not.. nothing to prevent it as is shown by non-europeans. You think other countries such as Germany and France want uncontrolled immigration and people simply coming into the country without contributing. They actually do things about it within the EU rules.


----------



## Zaros

Dr Pepper said:


> Can you reply in adult and coherent fashion please. I would like to know what you are accusing me of.


Well, as the evidence of your racist comments have been removed, I'm afraid there's nothing for me to submit to the court.


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> Or they were treated so poorly that they weren't willing to stay..


Just dropped by to stir the pot have we Rona?

As always.


----------



## Zaros

Creativecat said:


> View attachment 315898
> 
> :Hilarious


And, just what, exactly, is the relevance of this?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Why not.. nothing to prevent it as is shown by non-europeans. You think other countries such as Germany and France want uncontrolled immigration and people simply coming into the country without contributing. They actually do things about it within the EU rules.


I thought we were talking about legal immigration.


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...ls-for-patriotic-press-are-sinister-1-5076657
> 
> Absolutely disgusting. It's bad enough 95% of the press backing the Tories.
> 
> View attachment 315905


And then we can have our two minutes of hate.:Rage


----------



## Dr Pepper

Zaros said:


> Well, as the evidence of your racist comments have been removed, I'm afraid there's nothing for me to submit to the court I'm afraid.


Oh, that one post yesterday that was actually a sarcastic response to another post, as explained to, and accepted by a couple of the forum moderators?

So, the reality is it was ONE misunderstood non-racist comment, not many racist comments as you are implying. You are just being offensive now for the sake of it.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Osborne resigned


Yes, he resigned as an MP but didn't May sack him as Chancellor which forced him on to the back benches?


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> didn't May sack him as Chancellor


Aye. She certainly did.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...resa-may-cabinet-prime-minister-a7136151.html


----------



## Creativecat

Zaros said:


> And, just what, exactly, is the relevance of this?


I wondered when this would be an issue it's called lightening the tone .ie humour But as some on here have had a humour bypass .lording it over the great unwashed that dont know better . I'm suprised it hasn't been removed for willfully inflaming hatred against chocolate products:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...ls-for-patriotic-press-are-sinister-1-5076657
> 
> Absolutely disgusting. It's bad enough 95% of the press backing the Tories.
> 
> View attachment 315905


Well said John Simpson:


----------



## Zaros

Creativecat said:


> I wondered when this would be an issue it's called lightening the tone .ie humour But as some on here have had a humour bypass .lording it over the great unwashed that dont know better . I'm suprised it hasn't been removed for willfully inflaming hatred against chocolate products


Well, here's a thing, how about making your next effort at 'ligthening the tone' relevant to the topic.


----------



## Creativecat

Goblin said:


> To get you to vote to leave perhaps. To have a scapegoat to explain their own failures. To actually redirect attention to the fact the government doesn't want to reduce immigration due to it's overall benefits to the country. You ask a question.. you voted to leave, surely you should know the answer as you voted for it.
> 
> Why not.. nothing to prevent it as is shown by non-europeans. You think other countries such as Germany and France want uncontrolled immigration and people simply coming into the country without contributing. They actually do things about it within the EU rules.


Yes I knew I voted to leave because I was sick of this country continually having the piss taking out of it for to long and the country woke up to this fact last June so let's get on with doing whats best for this country instead of being the begging bowl of the world . And just keep getting knocked for it


----------



## Creativecat

So


Zaros said:


> Well, here's a thing, how about making your next effort at 'ligthening the tone' relevant to the topic.


 What as in ur stupid movie segments u mean of actors pulling silly faces why don't you choose to work for channel 4 arts department 
Where it would be more appreciated


----------



## emmaviolet

Creativecat said:


> Yes I knew I voted to leave because I was sick of this country continually having the piss taking out of it for to long and the country woke up to this fact last June so let's get on with doing whats best for this country instead of being the begging bowl of the world . And just keep getting knocked for it


I don't know if you know, but the years since we have joined the EU have been the most prosperous in our countries history, so how much we were taken the p out of, I am unsure.

I am also unsure if the country 'woke up', or were taken by a ride by those who wanted it for their own personal gain and they are just laughing now. All of them are so rich it doesn't mater how many people on the lower end lose everything, their jobs, houses etc.


----------



## Zaros

Creativecat said:


> So
> 
> What as in ur stupid movie segments u mean of actors pulling silly faces why don't you choose to work for channel 4 arts department
> Where it would be more appreciated


Can't you read facial expressions?

Too cryptic for you was it?

Oh, and by he way, it's not a movie segment, it's commonly known as a gif.


----------



## Creativecat

emmaviolet said:


> I don't know if you know, but the years since we have joined the EU have been the most prosperous in our countries history, so how much we were taken the p out of, I am unsure.
> 
> I am also unsure if the counrty woke up, or were taken by a ride by those who wanted it for their own personal gain and they are just laughing now. All of them are so rich it doesn't materhow many people on the lower end lose everythng, their jobs, houses etc.


The wealth certainly isn't flowing on the streets where I
Live tbh. Maybe if was in the shires with a nice big house in my own insulated bubble yes I
Probably would feel well boosted n content


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Well said John Simpson:
> View attachment 315906
> View attachment 315907


Leadsom should resign or be sacked. Implying that the free press should not be questioning the government - let alone criticising it - is completely unacceptable even in our excuse for a democracy.


----------



## Creativecat

Cr


Zaros said:


> Can't you read facial expressions?
> 
> Too cryptic for you was it?
> 
> Oh, and by he way, it's not a movie segment, it's commonly known as a gif.[/QUOTE





Zaros said:


> Can't you read facial expressions?
> 
> Too cryptic for you was it?
> 
> Oh, and by he way, it's not a movie segment, it's commonly known as a gif.


A gif
More like being smarmy lol 
What are you done with picking on DP and now it's my turn to be picked on . Lighten up man ;0)


----------



## Zaros

Creativecat said:


> A gif
> More like being smarmy lol
> What are you done with picking on DP and now it's my turn to be picked on . Lighten up man ;0)










​


----------



## emmaviolet

Creativecat said:


> The wealth certainly isn't flowing on the streets where I
> Live tbh. Maybe if was in the shires with a nice big house in my own insulated bubble yes I
> Probably would feel well boosted n content


Voting leave won't get the money flowing to you, if anything it will mean less money goes to your area as our country is doing badly now, and will most likely will be doing badly for a long time afterwards. There will be no extra money after we leave.


----------



## Creativecat

emmaviolet said:


> Voting leave won't get the money flowing to you, if anything it will mean less money goes to your area as our country is doing badly now, and will most likely will be doing badly for a long time afterwards. There will be no extra money after we leave.


Ok Emma 
U seem more informed 
Than the strategists that's uncanny lol . U glassed eyed witch women
:0)


----------



## Guest

Dr Pepper said:


> No, simple he is wrong on this. As I said in our area there are very very few immigrants. All the jobs Zaros said Brits won't do Brits are doing, there is no one else to do them. Our town is far from unique in this respect. There is no argument to be had with that because it's a fact.
> 
> I would imagine where there is a large migrant population more immigrants do the lower paid and unskilled jobs because there are far more of them. For example you can only have one superstore manager but there's 200 "lower" grade jobs in that store. You also have to remember a very high percentage of our doctors and dentist are immigrants, so it's not just low paid and unskilled work they do. As I said in my first reply to Zaros, he made a massive generalisation which is untrue. I stand by that.


I´m sure you know your town, but that is not the whole UK is it? Zaros´ example on the other hand represents the most typical employment of migrant workers. (which is pretty much the same here, Sweden, Germany, Holland etc. Uk is not unique at all in this respect.)

"The highest number of non-UK nationals are employed in elementary occupations (such as selling goods, cleaning or freight handling), in which approximately 669,000 (+/-86,000) non-UK nationals are employed (510,000 are EU nationals); this is followed by professional occupations, in which an estimated 658,000 (+/-83,000) non-UK nationals were employed (352,000 were EU nationals)."

Naturally migrant workers are employed in lots of other sectors, (like NHS) but that was not the question here, was it? The question was that are there jobs British don´t seem to want to do, which have usually low wages, bad working hours and include physical labour. The statistic clearly illustrate that your personal experience from your town isn´t typical and does not represent the UK.



rona said:


> Or they were treated so poorly that they weren't willing to stay. Many immigrants particularly short term, don't have that luxury.


What do you mean? Who treated whom badly? Those British, who didn´t finish the training and left, or those migrants who stayed after the training? And how come you are the expert on this particular example? Looks like you just wanted to say something negative about Zaros´s example, or was there another point to this?

By the way, if anyone is interested on the topic, here are some links. Those, who dislike any statistic don´t have to check. But these help to get the big picture, as I ´m sure there is lot of diversity in the matter depending where you live,

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-migrants-working-in-uk-rises-to-record-level
https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/


----------



## Creativecat

Zaros said:


> Let me try and assume what ur saying in your gif
> Your annoyed
> Your inconsolable
> You
> Have heartburn
> Your planning your nxt leadership contest
> Your upset angelina dumped you
> I really am at odds with whats going on tbh :0)
> ​


----------



## emmaviolet

Creativecat said:


> Ok Emma
> U seem more informed
> Than the strategists that's uncanny lol . U glassed eyed witch women
> :0)


I believe I am pretty informed as I read quite a lot,from many varied sources,I do not fall for soundbites,thankfully.

I'm just wondering how you feel that leaving the EU,and with it, our most prosperous years in the history of our land, will help your already disenfranchised town? This is a genuine question, so you don't have to reply with a joke about me. If you have anything, please answer, I'm genuinely interested, as you said, I'm well informed, I'd like more information.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> I thought we were talking about legal immigration.


Who says we are not. It's the government who controls immigration, both EU and outside and they simply haven't used the tools available. Not simply talking about current or previous conservative governments either.



Creativecat said:


> Yes I knew I voted to leave because I was sick of this country continually having the piss taking out of it for to long and the country woke up to this fact last June so let's get on with doing whats best for this country instead of being the begging bowl of the world . And just keep getting knocked for it


Yet you cannot explain how Brexit will magically solve this when it's not the EU responsible. How is leaving best for this country. Nobody who voted to leave has yet has been able to explain using facts rather than simple slogans which don't hold up to reality.



Creativecat said:


> The wealth certainly isn't flowing on the streets where I
> Live tbh. Maybe if was in the shires with a nice big house in my own insulated bubble yes I
> Probably would feel well boosted n content


Again, you don't explain how leaving solves anything. Distribution of wealth isn't anything to do with the EU, it's UK society and the UK government which is responsible for wealth distribution. In fact if you look at statistics, countries such as the UK, New Zealand, US have far greater inequality than continental europe. Why is that? How does leaving, making the UK worse off help?


----------



## Zaros

Creativecat said:


> .


----------



## kimthecat

.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> How is leaving best for this country. Nobody who voted to leave has yet has been able to explain using facts rather than simple slogans which don't hold up to reality.


Slogans and false 'benefits' may have convinced some that the country will benefit economically, but for many they are nothing more than a thin veneer covering an instinctive fear or dislike of people different from us. That, I think, is especially true of the Tory Brexiteers - the Goves, Rees-Moggs, Duncan-Smiths - who like to think of England (and the lesser nations in the Kingdom) as better than Johnny Foreigner. How dare they be in a position to outvote us and tell us - us! the British! - what to do.

That veneer of easily demolished arguments and spurious promises has to be used as a justification for their stance because even they recognise it for the medieval tribalism that it is.


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> Slogans and false 'benefits' may have convinced some that the country will benefit economically, but for many they are nothing more than a thin veneer covering an instinctive fear or dislike of people different from us.


I do not think that covers the majority however. I think that there is a deep disatisfaction in the UK society at the moment in general. It's not simply immigrants. Leave campaign simply provided a scapegoat to blame which is why the question remains, how does leaving solve anything. Yet to find someone who posts an answer which stands up.


----------



## Elles

I'm surprised that the more socialist of us like the Eu. Instead of bringing the poorer countries in gradually when they met their targets, giving them enough money to improve and supporting them, they put restrictions on them, told them they had to bring in austerity to reduce their debts and used their workers (some counted heads, some didn't) to do poorly paid jobs in richer countries, so that billionaires could become even wealthier. Maybe I read the wrong papers, but what I saw were poor people abandoned and exploited while the wealthy, unelected fat cats of Brussels and their friends got fatter.

We just need to vote in a caring government now, increase our protective measures, of people and the environment and set an example. All should be equal, treated equally, with equal opportunities. I just can't see something like the Eu being the answer. An unelected federal body ruling its states, while they argue over who gets what and divvy up the spoils. That's how I see it.

I'm glad May's Conservatives didn't get their majority. Their extreme brexit ideals and red tape cutting would ruin any chance there is have of creating a fairer, safer Britain, or Europe imo. We can make our own red tape and it should be stronger, more robust and fairer than anything we may or may not pass through the Eu. We just need the right government to do it.

Maybe Corbyn's Labour will be the right government, I don't know. Unfortunately I'm not convinced and the more he says the less convinced I am. Though at least he'd penalise companies for using cheap labour and stop them doing it. With May's government we're up the creek, but the loss of her majority may at least have given us a paddle. 

Immigration number reduction to the scale suggested is not just a lie, it's pointless and would be no good for anyone.

I don't believe in the Eu. I don't believe staying in is for the greater good. I would have stayed in for Gibraltar especially, but also Ireland, but we voted to leave so something will have to be sorted out. I wish they'd get on with it. 

Right or wrong, that's my current view anyway.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> I do not think that covers the majority however. I think that there is a deep disatisfaction in the UK society at the moment in general. It's not simply immigrants. Leave campaign simply provided a scapegoat to blame which is why the question remains, how does leaving solve anything. Yet to find someone who posts an answer which stands up.


I think you right, though I really don't know what proportion falls into what camp. But there was certainly a 'simple' dissatisfaction vote with the state of the country, and both the government and the EU were handy scapegoats.

The Leave camp took shameless and disingenuous advantage of that dissatisfaction, and of the undeniable fact that there was very little understanding of what 'Leave' would mean - if they had their way - to deliver an outcome which would not have gained a majority had people actually understood the implications.

Add to that (as per my post above) a, frankly, instinctive xenophobia and there is a perfect storm resulting in turkeys voting for christmas.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Slogans and false 'benefits' may have convinced some that the country will benefit economically, but for many they are nothing more than a thin veneer covering an instinctive fear or dislike of people different from us. That, I think, is especially true of the Tory Brexiteers - the Goves, Rees-Moggs, Duncan-Smiths - who like to think of England (and the lesser nations in the Kingdom) as better than Johnny Foreigner. How dare they be in a position to outvote us and tell us - us! the British! - what to do.
> 
> That veneer of easily demolished arguments and spurious promises has to be used as a justification for their stance because even they recognise it for the medieval tribalism that it is.


Nope, you are wrong. Your thought process for why people voted in favour of Brexit is frankly vulgar and ignorant. You are apparently, going by your last two post, the xenophobe one against those in favour of Brexit.

Frankly I thought Brexit and the racist card had been played to death and the more intelligent remain voters realised what a nonsense it was.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> An unelected federal body ruling its states, while they argue over who gets what and divvy up the spoils. That's how I see it.


What unelected federal body rules it's states? You have the EU commission which can make proposals but decisions aren't implemented by them. All EU countries vote for their governments through democratic process. You also have a chance to vote for MEP's. Those are the people who actually decide the rulings for the states. These people making the decisions are elected. The democratic process being one which actually gives more representative power to the minorities.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Frankly I thought Brexit and the racist card had been played to death and the more intelligent remain voters realised what a nonsense it was.


What do you call voting for something which is blatantly false I wonder other than nonsense?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> What do you call voting for something which is blatantly false I wonder other than nonsense?


Nope. We voted to leave the EU, and guess what, we are. No nonsense there.

I get you don't like it. I get you don't like it because you are a expat worried about your future. In your shoes I'd have the same concerns and no doubt voted remain. But, like the majority who voted to leave, we are in the UK and not in your shoes. That's how democracy works.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Nope. We voted to leave the EU, and guess what, we are. No nonsense there.
> 
> I get you don't like it. I get you don't like it because you are a expat worried about your future. In your shoes I'd have the same concerns and no doubt voted remain. But, like the majority who voted to leave, we are in the UK and not in your shoes. That's how democracy works.


So rather than explain using facts we are back to "we won the vote". Don't care about damaging the UK, don't want to look at reality we won the non-binding referendum. One thing about democracy, people change their views and change is permitted. We still do not have to leave.

Trying to say it's all about being an expat is stupid. Democracy would have given those who would lose rights the capability of voting for example.

My rights are protected through the EU rules unlike expats in the UK which face uncertainty and a rise in xenophobia. I worry about people like the rest of my family in the UK and in Northern Ireland. They are some of those who will suffer because you support a policy you seem unable to justify.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So rather than explain using facts we are back to "we won the vote". Don't care about damaging the UK, don't want to look at reality we won the non-binding referendum. One thing about democracy, people change their views and change is permitted. We still do not have to leave.
> 
> Trying to say it's all about being an expat is stupid. Democracy would have given those who would lose rights the capability of voting for example.
> 
> My rights are protected through the EU rules unlike expats in the UK which face uncertainty and a rise in xenophobia. I worry about people like the rest of my family in the UK and in Northern Ireland. They are some of those who will suffer because you support a policy you seem unable to justify.


There we go, the racist card played again, well done.

I can see and sympathies with your view point as a expat. It's just because you are expat you are in a very small minority and it's only just the majority have their say.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> There we go, the racist card played again, well done.


So any mention of xenophobia is playing a racist card. Ignore the fact that racial and religious attacks rose by 41% after the referendum. Not driven by xenophobia at all perhaps you can explain it as something else...



> I can see and sympathies with your view point as a expat. It's just because you are expat you are in a very small minority and it's only just the majority have their say.


So democracy is only giving a certain majority group a vote. Nice to hear your version of democracy.

Still unable to give actual reasoning on advantages of leaving I see.


----------



## Elles

Leave or stay it would have made little difference. The hate attacks would still have happened, maybe even worse with a close vote on the side of stay. I thought the increase was over 50%. A minority do that sort of thing sadly.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Leave or stay it would have made little difference. The hate attacks would still have happened, maybe even worse with a close vote on the side of stay. I thought the increase was over 50%. A minority do that sort of thing sadly.


You must be joking.. Leave campaigned pushing the xenophobic line, blaming immigrants for taking places for doctors etc.. scapegoating problems caused by the government onto a minority. People voted to leave therefore validating the minority who are racist and they believe supporting and agreeing with them. There's been nothing officially or from the "majority" to correct the lies. Instead it's been continued. May with her "get companies to register immigrants" attempt for example. It's not been about integration since the referendum, it's been about blame.


----------



## Goblin

Strange.. a year on and I remember the difference between how expats are treated.. UK it's all their fault for the problems in the country. Germany, the Sun equivalent:






​


> WE WILL MAKE ZIS!
> 
> Dear Brefugees
> Brit happens! But luckily there's the German 'welcome culture'. Rest assured: If you leave your island because of the #Brexit, your quirky, lovable kind will find a new home with us. Miss Germany Isabel Buder-Gülck, 25, from Elmshorn shows you what to expect: We do have the prettier girls (even from a sober perspective) and our guys are rather cute, too. Plus: Our beer has a head. You'd only have to concede that the Wembley goal 1966 wasn't over the line.
> So do come over to us.
> Together we will make zis through.
> Yours
> BILD


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Nope, you are wrong. Your thought process for why people voted in favour of Brexit is frankly vulgar and ignorant. You are apparently, going by your last two post, the xenophobe one against those in favour of Brexit.
> 
> Frankly I thought Brexit and the racist card had been played to death and the more intelligent remain voters realised what a nonsense it was.


I suppose it is possible that my thinking is ignorant and vulgar, but I do know the difference between xenophobia and racism, which is why I have never used the latter term.

My thinking stems from many years of studying human evolution and the characteristics of h. sapiens compared to those of other primates, so I would be interested to hear your analysis if you could couch it in terms that included more depth than the above ad hominem attack. Speaking of which, my analysis was not aimed at every Leave voter, though it does seem to be taken personally by all of that ilk. I try to look at things dispassionately, and would humbly suggest that you do the same.

How many people, do you think, voted Leave solely, mainly or partly because they didn't like the EU telling 'us' what to do? How many of those, do you think, could cite even one example of a law or regulation that adversely affects them? If the latter total is smaller than the former, then you have to search for other motivations. I know what I think they were, but am open to your alternative suggestions.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I suppose it is possible that my thinking is ignorant and vulgar, but I do know the difference between xenophobia and racism, which is why I have never used the latter term.
> 
> My thinking stems from many years of studying human evolution and the characteristics of h. sapiens compared to those of other primates, so I would be interested to hear your analysis if you could couch it in terms that included more depth than the above ad hominem attack. Speaking of which, my analysis was not aimed at every Leave voter, though it does seem to be taken personally by all of that ilk. I try to look at things dispassionately, and would humbly suggest that you do the same.
> 
> How many people, do you think, voted Leave solely, mainly or partly because they didn't like the EU telling 'us' what to do? How many of those, do you think, could cite even one example of a law or regulation that adversely affects them? If the latter total is smaller than the former, then you have to search for other motivations. I know what I think they were, but am open to your alternative suggestions.


There's another 489 where it's all been done to death, dragged up, flogged and beaten to within a inch of it's life. So until something new comes up with the negotiations I have no desire to go through it all again. Moving on you see, it's what you have to do wether you like it or not.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> There's another 489 where it's all been done to death, dragged up, flogged and beaten to within a inch of it's life. So until something new comes up with the negotiations I have no desire to go through it all again. Moving on you see, it's what you have to do wether you like it or not.


So as before (in those 489 pages) when push comes to shove no answers as to why we are damaging the country other than lies.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> There's another 489 where it's all been done to death, dragged up, flogged and beaten to within a inch of it's life. So until something new comes up with the negotiations I have no desire to go through it all again. Moving on you see, it's what you have to do wether you like it or not.


And yet in those previous c. 10,000 posts I have found nothing to make me change my mind about the motivation of a significant number of Leave voters - but by no means all, of course. Accusations that my thinking is 'vulgar and ignorant' don't really contribute anything new to my considered hypothesis, and therefore do nothing to suggest that I should change it.

Moving on is exactly what I would like humanity to be doing. Brexit still represents, for me, a backward step.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Of course there are people who benefit from Brexit, not only in Paris or Moscow. 
Even some of our members had reason to celebrate, not to mention most of Tory Leave Camp:









The rest of us which have not money invested in relevant shares or gold lost out about 15% of our wages in pound.

New trade deals put so much hope: We have access to Ethiopia, Bangladesh and few more...who then needs EU markets ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Sorry to bore you again:

So Davis was sure they will get majority in this election and convinced May









HE is now convinced we will get good deal in Brexit...

LOL.


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> HE is now convinced we will get good deal in Brexit...


I wonder if he can define a good deal when compared with staying in the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> New trade deals put so much hope: We have access to Ethiopia, Bangladesh and few more...who then needs EU markets ?
> View attachment 315959


I saw this elsewhere, and wondered whether it was supposed to be a positive in terms of Brexit. Free Trade Agreements were supposed to be part of the bright new future that Brexit represents, yet we already have quite a lot as members of the EU, as these 48 examples indicate. I wonder where all the trade advantages are coming from - especially when you consider that Australia is negotiating a FTA with the EU, and Trump's USA is all about 'America First!'


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> I wonder if he can define a good deal when compared with staying in the EU.


Ask him how he defines good election results....

Surely Brexit deal will be just as "good".

And would be presented as such to the public by "patriotic broadcasters".

Hurray!!!


----------



## leashedForLife

*@cheekyscrip *said,

_Ask SoS-E-EU, Davis, how he defines 'good election' results.... Surely Brexit deal will be just as "good".

And would be presented as such to the public by "patriotic broadcasters". :Happy Hurray!!! 

_______________________________
.
.
Cheeky.


----------



## KittenKong

Well well well.....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...use-democratic-process-comments-a7803631.html


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> I am not making any assumptions about you, or your circumstances. I merely pointed out in my very short sentence that you were wrong in saying people won't be able to retire abroad. If you decided to read into that further and think it's patronising towards you then I think that says more about you, than me tbh.
> 
> People retire to other countries outside of the EU all of the time. I have no reason to believe that retiring to a European country will be any different to that after the UK leaves.
> 
> I plan on doing the same myself.


Here we go again. None of us know whether we're right or wrong at the present time.

I certainly disagree it will be as easy to retire within the EU as it is/was prior to Brexit! More like as easy to emigrate to the U.S. or Australia with green card applications and points based requirements respectively.

I never said people will be stopped from retiring abroad, rich people will always be able to do that. I was speaking for those on modest incomes who were able to but may no longer be able to once the UK is isolated from the EEA area.


----------



## KittenKong

Creativecat said:


> Yes I knew I voted to leave because I was sick of this country continually having the piss taking out of it for to long and the country woke up to this fact last June so let's get on with doing whats best for this country instead of being the begging bowl of the world . And just keep getting knocked for it


By doing so it's taken the p*** out of itself. It's becoming famously known for its Alf Garnett like bigotry.

No wonder it's become a laughing stock to the rest of the world.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Here we go again. None of us know whether we're right or wrong at the present time.
> 
> I certainly disagree it will be as easy to retire within the EU as it is/was prior to Brexit! More like as easy to emigrate to the U.S. or Australia with green card applications and points based requirements respectively.
> 
> I never said people will be stopped from retiring abroad, rich people will always be able to do that. I was speaking for those on modest incomes who were able to but may no longer be able to once the UK is isolated from the EEA area.


Your biggest worry is the pound, unless you wisely located your pension in qrops , gold etc...

Next worry is accessible health care in EU...
But property is cheaper right now ..
Friend just got a house .... He is not worried. But again, has plenty stashed away from Britain and not in pounds....
Spain needs expats, else Costas would turn into ghost towns past summer season.
No worries. 
Far from Madrid not many really care about Brexit etc...Brits and their money are welcome.


----------



## Creativecat

KittenKong said:


> By doing so it's taken the p*** out of itself. It's becoming famously known for its Alf Garnett like bigotry.
> 
> No wonder it's become a laughing stock to the rest of the world.


 Hopefully if we are a laughing stock we wont have the population of Birmingham decend upon us every year.without fail Why is it classed as bigotry to be concerned for the wealthfare of our country . No disrespect but why are you so concerned when you have made it clear what you think of the uk as you want to spend your twighlight yrs abroad so you have no loyalty to the uk so why worry yourself


----------



## cheekyscrip

Creativecat said:


> Hopefully if we are a laughing stock we wont have the population of Birmingham decend upon us every year.without fail Why is it classed as bigotry to be concerned for the wealthfare of our country . No disrespect but why are you so concerned when you have made it clear what you think of the uk as you want to spend your twighlight yrs abroad so you have no loyalty to the uk so why worry yourself


That is a bit harsh .Many retire to warmer climate due to health or family reasons, no need to question their patriotic feelings.

I live abroad for twenty years , yet angers me a lot being called unloyal or unpatriotic.

That I keep for those vandals and layabouts who actively destroy or sponge on their country.

Being expat or immigrant does not make you bad citizen per se.


----------



## Creativecat

cheekyscrip said:


> That is a bit harsh .Many retire to warmer climate due to health or family reasons, no need to question their patriotic feelings.
> 
> I live abroad for twenty years , yet angers me a lot being called unloyal or unpatriotic.
> 
> That I keep for those vandals and layabouts who actively destroy or sponge on their country.
> 
> Being expat or immigrant does not make you bad citizen per se.


I totally agree poeple have a right to retire or spend there days wherever they wish wether thru health or social reasons .,i would
Never be rude to kK that's why I said in all due respect . I can see her concerns but my views are valid also not to be steam rollered
Or strong armed against my beliefs I know thts not happened here as we are all respectful I know that much . But it's not right to shout anyone down or lay down in submission by anybody's views . I think we will always agree to disagree but that's.all our rights I guess :0)


----------



## cheekyscrip

Creativecat said:


> I totally agree poeple have a right to retire or spend there days wherever they wish wether thru health or social reasons .,i would
> Never be rude to kK that's why I said in all due respect . I can see her concerns but my views are valid also not to be steam rollered
> Or strong armed against my beliefs I know thts not happened here as we are all respectful I know that much . But it's not right to shout anyone down or lay down in submission by anybody's views . I think we will always agree to disagree but that's.all our rights I guess :0)


Kk is male... I agree to disagree.
Btw , what is wrong with Birmingham?
 ...


----------



## Creativecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Kk is male... I agree to disagree.
> Btw , what is wrong with Birmingham?
> ...


Oops pmsl 
I love Birmingham in truth . There the most friendly people ever.


----------



## Arnie83

Incidentally, Birmingham population (2014) 1.1 million; net migration from EU to UK 2016 133,000.


----------



## Creativecat

Arnie83 said:


> Incidentally, Birmingham population (2014) 1.1 million; net migration from EU to UK 2016 133,000.


Oh you quickley told me to mind my own business a few days back now quoting the population of Birmingham . Lol I think the 133.000
Is grossly under in all fairness . Frm what iv observed EU migration has run into the hundreds of thousands every year unabated but if you have a link to prove this plz feel free to share


----------



## Arnie83

Creativecat said:


> Oh you quickley told me to mind my own business a few days back now quoting the population of Birmingham . Lol I think the 133.000
> Is grossly under in all fairness . Frm what iv observed EU migration has run into the hundreds of thousands every year unabated but if you have a link to prove this plz feel free to share


Of course.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/


> In 2016, an estimated 250,000 citizens from other EU countries immigrated to the UK, and about 117,000 emigrated abroad. So *EU 'net migration' was around 133,000.*


Perhaps you could return the compliment by quoting my post telling you to mind your own business, because I did no such thing.


----------



## Creativecat

Arnie83 said:


> Of course.
> 
> https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/
> 
> Perhaps you could return the compliment by quoting my post telling you to mind your own business, because I did no such thing.


No your right I apologise 
It was along the lines of I'm not arguing with you or words to that


----------



## Creativecat

Word for word it was
If you'll excuse me I won't be engaging with you on this topic :0)


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
logically, refusing to ARGUE emotionally is not remotely the same thing as offering a statistic from a well-reputed, factual source.
 One is simply quarreling; the other is data, which - so long as it is accurate - is a fact, not an 'argument'.
.
the 1st is emotion; the 2nd, evidence.
.
.


----------



## Arnie83

Creativecat said:


> Word for word it was
> If you'll excuse me I won't be engaging with you on this topic :0)


Indeed, which is why my Birmingham post wasn't 'addressed' to anyone but merely stated facts.


----------



## Guest

Happening so far in Brexit negotiations according to the conservative Daily Telegraph:

Firstly) "Inside a Dinner Party from Hell: Daily Telegraph practically said May was an idiot, when she thought she had the winning hand in the negotiation table saying : "We allow all three million EU citizens to remain in the UK with the same rights and welfare benefits as British people, but those rights would be enshrined in UK law."

Is she really so far out that she thinks that is good enough? Like we would trust UK law, which doesn´t even respect the Basic EU safety and health regulations. If a conservative newspaper tells she was so badly wrong even thinking this would be acceptable, how incompetent is she really?

Secondly) "David Davis warns Tory leadership contest would be 'catastrophic' for Brexit negotiations " Headline: Letters: The Conservatives must split - or else tear themselves apart over Brexit
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-party-really-went-theresa-may-faced-eu-foes/

And for those, who like Guardian, here is the link and the message is the same: UK is not doing well at all and May is especially incompetent.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...sa-may-would-be-catastrophic-for-brexit-talks

Thirdly from the horses mouth: Jean-Claude Juncker says he has no clear idea what UK wants as negotiatons get underway, May's offer to EU citizens 'not sufficient', says president of European Commission

Our newspapers say: UK cannot be trusted, because your opinions keep changing, as the inner politics is so unsteady and people have really no idea what Brexit could actually mean. (this is pretty clear based on PF too, don´t you think? )

My question: is someone out there still thinking current goverment will give you a good deal in Brexit and is actually capable of handling the negotiations? If there is, well, it is really time for those tin hats that were on display earlier. Keep them on your head, as the news will not be very good. But with the hat on, you won´t see them and can keep blaming EU or Corbyn or immigration or me or anyone, who is around at the time when the promises that were given won´t come true.

Sorry if that is a bit harsh, but the lingo turned a bit nasty on this thread and I merely reused some of the same terminology.


----------



## Zaros

Breaking News!

The Conservative Unionist Negotiations Team of Signatories is searching for a catchy new acronym that can be used as an easily recognisable logo for their Brexit talks.

Does anyone have any fresh and catchy ideas?:Writing


----------



## Elles

No, I don't believe this government and the Eu will negotiate what the people of Britain voted for or want.

I'm going to use a particular favourite. Neo-liberalism at its finest.


----------



## emmaviolet

Creativecat said:


> Hopefully if we are a laughing stock we wont have the population of Birmingham decend upon us every year.without fail Why is it classed as bigotry to be concerned for the wealthfare of our country . No disrespect but why are you so concerned when you have made it clear what you think of the uk as you want to spend your twighlight yrs abroad so you have no loyalty to the uk so why worry yourself


So in your opinion, anyone who wishes to live elsewhere isn't patriotic enough for you to have a say? How utterly bemusing.

I would want to live abroad in the coming years, not even my old age yet, but that doesn't mean I wasn't born here and shouldn't have a say. That right is now being denied many of us, for whatever reason we would wish to leave. Wanting to leave this country for two weeks, two years or twenty, and wanting to expand your horizons, maybe educate yourself, make new connections in the world, does not equate to no loyalty towards the UK.


----------



## Creativecat

emmaviolet said:


> So in your opinion, anyone who wishes to live elsewhere isn't patriotic enough for you to have a say? How utterly bemusing.
> 
> I would want to live abroad in the coming years, not even my old age yet, but that doesn't mean I wasn't born here and shouldn't have a say. That right is now being denied many of us, for whatever reason we would wish to leave. Wanting to leave this country for two weeks, two years or twenty, and wanting to expand your horizons, maybe educate yourself, make new connections in the world, does not equate to no loyalty towards the UK.


Read the posts after I said that plz


----------



## emmaviolet

Creativecat said:


> Read the posts after I said that plz


I have.


----------



## cheekyscrip

emmaviolet said:


> So in your opinion, anyone who wishes to live elsewhere isn't patriotic enough for you to have a say? How utterly bemusing.
> 
> I would want to live abroad in the coming years, not even my old age yet, but that doesn't mean I wasn't born here and shouldn't have a say. That right is now being denied many of us, for whatever reason we would wish to leave. Wanting to leave this country for two weeks, two years or twenty, and wanting to expand your horizons, maybe educate yourself, make new connections in the world, does not equate to no loyalty towards the UK.


Or you like me marry a foreigner and because of his/ her circumstances have to live abroad, at least for some time?
It happened to few of us here....

Cupid is blind....so beware!!!! Cannot see your passport....


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Here we go again. None of us know whether we're right or wrong at the present time.
> 
> I certainly disagree it will be as easy to retire within the EU as it is/was prior to Brexit! More like as easy to emigrate to the U.S. or Australia with green card applications and points based requirements respectively.
> 
> I never said people will be stopped from retiring abroad, rich people will always be able to do that. I was speaking for those on modest incomes who were able to but may no longer be able to once the UK is isolated from the EEA area.


It shouldn't be easy to retire to another country. It should be something someone works towards to achieve and thus be able to substain there selves in the country they retire to.


----------



## Creativecat

emmaviolet said:


> I have.


I agree poeple have a say and are no
Less patriotic if they go abroad . Just feel sad at some people's views are un kind and spiteful in there opinions abt how terrible this country's and generalising how people are when it's not true thats what upsets me I know this country is not perfect by far but what country is in all fairness.
I do think we are all of the same opinion TM has not been great thou


----------



## Happy Paws2

If we had the money OH and myself would move to the South of France in a heartbeat, but now it's would be impossible.


----------



## Creativecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Or you like me marry a foreigner and because of his/ her circumstances have to live abroad, at least for some time?
> It happened to few of us here....
> 
> Cupid is blind....so beware!!!! Cannot see your passport....


Is that cannot or can I see your passport :Hilarious


----------



## leashedForLife

*@stuaz* said,

_*It shouldn't be easy* *to retire to another country.* 
It should be something someone works... to achieve, & thus be able to [sustain] themselves] in the country they retire to._
______________________________
.
.
OK, Stuaz - i'll bite. Why should it be "*hard*" to retire outside the UK? - Honest Q. 
What's wrong with retirees going abroad, WHERE THEIR MONEY GOES FURTHER? :Wideyed
.
U know - that hard-earned dosh they've been saving up, or that they have in a pension, retirement fund, etc? // I'm presuming that's what U refer to, when U say, _"something one WORKS to achieve"_ - in point of fact, I believe U mean, *something one SAVES to afford, from one's many years of work*. Correct?
.
& yes, UK cits of modest means could & did retire to other EU nations - Italy, Spain, etc. What's wrong with that? Living expenses are lower, they can afford a more comfy lifestyle, & they've worked all their lives to be able to do this. So why not?
The new wrench in the works is the abrupt change in political agreements, with the UK leaving the EU & thus exploding all their existing agreements vis-a-vis emigres, retirees, passports, travel, residency, healthcare while residing in another EU country, etc. If the UK were still an EU member, there's BE NO WORRY for retirees who want to live - or even workers who'd like to work! -- in another EU country.
.
.
.


----------



## Creativecat

Happy Paws said:


> If we had the money OH and myself would move to the South of France in a heartbeat, but now it's would be impossible.


In all fairness HP we don't know this


----------



## Happy Paws2

Creativecat said:


> In all fairness HP we don't know this


Why it's not just a case of leaving the EU, but by the time it's all sorted we will be far to old, and the value of the pound doesn't help.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> No, I don't believe this government and the Eu will negotiate what the people of Britain voted for or want.
> 
> I'm going to use a particular favourite. Neo-liberalism at its finest.


Once again, 52% of those voted backed leave. 48% didn't.

When you talk of, "what the people of Britain want" do not include myself, nor the 48% like me.

Not in my name under any circumstances.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> If we had the money OH and myself would move to the South of France in a heartbeat, but now it's would be impossible.


is that because of the exchange rate ? 
I need to stay in the UK as I'm dependent on the NHS for healthcare and drugs .


----------



## stuaz

leashedForLife said:


> *@stuaz* said,
> 
> _*It shouldn't be easy* *to retire to another country.*
> It should be something someone works... to achieve, & thus be able to [sustain] themselves] in the country they retire to._
> ______________________________
> .
> .
> OK, Stuaz - i'll bite. Why should it be "*hard*" to retire outside the UK? - Honest Q.
> What's wrong with retirees going abroad, WHERE THEIR MONEY GOES FURTHER? :Wideyed
> .
> U know - that hard-earned dosh they've been saving up, or that they have in a pension, retirement fund, etc? // I'm presuming that's what U refer to, when U say, _"something one WORKS to achieve"_ - in point of fact, I believe U mean, *something one SAVES to afford, from one's many years of work*. Correct?
> .
> & yes, UK cits of modest means could & did retire to other EU nations - Italy, Spain, etc. What's wrong with that? Living expenses are lower, they can afford a more comfy lifestyle, & they've worked all their lives to be able to do this. So why not?
> The new wrench in the works is the abrupt change in political agreements, with the UK leaving the EU & thus exploding all their existing agreements vis-a-vis emigres, retirees, passports, travel, residency, healthcare while residing in another EU country, etc. If the UK were still an EU member, there's BE NO WORRY for retirees who want to live - or even workers who'd like to work! -- in another EU country.
> .
> .
> .


The point is that retiring to a European country is achievable to all those that want it (With exception of maybe criminal convictions preventing it). The poster I was originally replying to was implying that it would now be impossible to do so.

If you want to do something bad enough then you will do what you can to achieve it.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> No, I don't believe this government and the Eu will negotiate what the people of Britain voted for or want.


How many people who voted leave really know what they voted for? It was impossible to know simply with an boolean question and answer. Even now there are differing opinions about what it means. In/Out of single market being the obvious one. Seems even the UK government can't decide on that one and that is a small group of people.

Brexit is Brexit.. what is Brexit?


----------



## Goblin

stuaz said:


> It shouldn't be easy to retire to another country.


Why not? Why should it be difficult and made more so for no real reason? What harm is someone doing to anyone by retiring elsewhere? Your argument that they should be able to sustain themselves also applies to their home country as well surely.


----------



## leashedForLife

*stuaz *said,

_...retiring to [an EU] country is *achievable to all those that want it* ... The poster I replied to, [implied] that [it's] now impossible...
If you want... something bad enough, then you will do what you can to achieve it._
___________________________
.
.
- there will be multiple new hurdles to easy international border-crossings between UK & EU, soon.
.
- the loss of value in UK pounds means savings & investments have lost value; they may or may not recover in EXCHANGE value, but that does not replace the lost EARNINGS from their devalued period, however long it lasts.
.
 - higher exchange values means pounds buy less.
.
- healthcare used to be covered by insurance, & U had a reassuringly known protection. Now?... Who knows?
.
.
.


----------



## stuaz

Goblin said:


> Why not? Why should it be difficult and made more so for no real reason? What harm is someone doing to anyone by retiring elsewhere? Your argument that they should be able to sustain themselves also applies to their home country as well surely.


Of course.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Why not? Why should it be difficult and made more so for no real reason? What harm is someone doing to anyone by retiring elsewhere? Your argument that they should be able to sustain themselves also applies to their home country as well surely.


That was called freedom of movement.
Work or retire , or marry where you want.

I do not agree that one can achieve whatever if they want hard enough...

Especially later in life cards are dealt really, you know your retirement pot, you know your health problems.

For many that will be the turning point, if they have to rely on private health insurance and have preexisting conditions.
No E111 would be a problem.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Happy Paws said:


> If we had the money OH and myself would move to the South of France in a heartbeat, but now it's would be impossible.


I'd love to move to the south of France too - into a chateux in 10 acres of land and a Ferrari Dino 246 parked on the drive. Brexit and Theresa May's right cocked up my dreams, though.


----------



## stuaz

leashedForLife said:


> *stuaz *said,
> 
> _...retiring to [an EU] country is *achievable to all those that want it* ... The poster I replied to, [implied] that [it's] now impossible...
> If you want... something bad enough, then you will do what you can to achieve it._
> ___________________________
> .
> .
> - there will be multiple new hurdles to easy international border-crossings between UK & EU, soon.
> .
> - the loss of value in UK pounds means savings & investments have lost value; they may or may not recover in EXCHANGE value, but that does not replace the lost EARNINGS from their devalued period, however long it lasts.
> .
> - higher exchange values means pounds buy less.
> .
> - healthcare used to be covered by insurance, & U had a reassuringly known protection. Now?... Who knows?
> .
> .
> .


Not sure why you are editing my responses? Can't you just use the quote button like everyone else?

But yes Brexit has created uncertainty and questions on a whole host of things, I think most have probably been discussed in the 400+ pages of this thread!


----------



## emmaviolet

Creativecat said:


> I agree poeple have a say and are no
> Less patriotic if they go abroad . Just feel sad at some people's views are un kind and spiteful in there opinions abt how terrible this country's and generalising how people are when it's not true thats what upsets me I know this country is not perfect by far but what country is in all fairness.
> I do think we are all of the same opinion TM has not been great thou


That is not what your post said earlier, you said wanting to spend your later years abroad meant you have no loyalty to the country and why then bother to have an opinion.

Why does it upset you that others should question and have opinions on the country?Is that not exactly what you have done in voting leave? You have expressed feelings that your area is not in a good way, so you can expect no less from other people expressing the things they see wrong with the country.

I'm still interested on how you feel your own town will benefit from leaving the EU and in what way they held back those who live there. I did ask you, but you didn't follow up.


----------



## Creativecat

emmaviolet said:


> That is not what your post said earlier, you said wanting to spend your later years abroad meant you have no loyalty to the country and why then bother to have an opinion.
> 
> Why does it upset you that others should question and have opinions on the country?Is that not exactly what you have done in voting leave? You have expressed feelings that your area is not in a good way, so you can expect no less from other people expressing the things they see wrong with the country.
> 
> I'm still interested on how you feel your own town will benefit from leaving the EU and in what way they held back those who live there. I did ask you, but you didn't follow up.[/QUOTEi know I said tht and then said u agreed poeple have a rite to reside where they wished to and they wasnt un patriot if they did this . As for what might be better in my town you didn't read my other post abt housing in my town no one wanted to answer why this was maybe you could shed some light on my post


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> If we had the money OH and myself would move to the South of France in a heartbeat, but now it's would be impossible.


We thought a lot about going HP, we love France and everything about it. But we know a lot of people who have had to come home, because they can no longer afford to live there and that was before brexit was even thought about.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I'm surprised that the more socialist of us like the Eu. Instead of bringing the poorer countries in gradually when they met their targets, giving them enough money to improve and supporting them, they put restrictions on them, told them they had to bring in austerity to reduce their debts and used their workers (some counted heads, some didn't) to do poorly paid jobs in richer countries, so that billionaires could become even wealthier. Maybe I read the wrong papers, but what I saw were poor people abandoned and exploited while the wealthy, unelected fat cats of Brussels and their friends got fatter.
> 
> We just need to vote in a caring government now, increase our protective measures, of people and the environment and set an example. All should be equal, treated equally, with equal opportunities. I just can't see something like the Eu being the answer. An unelected federal body ruling its states, while they argue over who gets what and divvy up the spoils. That's how I see it.
> 
> I'm glad May's Conservatives didn't get their majority. Their extreme brexit ideals and red tape cutting would ruin any chance there is have of creating a fairer, safer Britain, or Europe imo. We can make our own red tape and it should be stronger, more robust and fairer than anything we may or may not pass through the Eu. We just need the right government to do it.
> 
> Maybe Corbyn's Labour will be the right government, I don't know. Unfortunately I'm not convinced and the more he says the less convinced I am. Though at least he'd penalise companies for using cheap labour and stop them doing it. With May's government we're up the creek, but the loss of her majority may at least have given us a paddle.
> 
> Immigration number reduction to the scale suggested is not just a lie, it's pointless and would be no good for anyone.
> 
> I don't believe in the Eu. I don't believe staying in is for the greater good. I would have stayed in for Gibraltar especially, but also Ireland, but we voted to leave so something will have to be sorted out. I wish they'd get on with it.
> 
> Right or wrong, that's my current view anyway.


The tories may not have a majority but they are still intent on pushing ahead with their repeal bill which is a power grab to bypass Parliament. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...pe-safety-deregulation?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The "pollution paradox" (those corporations whose practices are most offensive to voters have to spend the most money on politics, with the result that their demands come to dominate political life) ensures that our protections are progressively dismantled by governments courting big donors.

Conservative MPs see Brexit as an excellent opportunity to strip back regulations. The speed with which the "great repeal bill" will have to pass through parliament (assuming that any of Theresa May's programme can now be implemented) provides unprecedented scope to destroy the protections guaranteed by European regulations. The bill will rely heavily on statutory instruments, which permit far less parliamentary scrutiny than primary legislation. Unnoticed and undebated, crucial elements of public health and safety, workers' rights and environmental protection could be made to disappear.

Too many times we have seen what the bonfire of regulations, which might sound like common sense when issuing from the mouths of ministers, looks like in the real world. The public protections that governments describe as red tape are what make the difference between a good society and barbarism. It is time to bring the disastrous deregulatory agenda to an end, and put public safety and other basic decencies ahead of corner-cutting and greed


----------



## noushka05

Creativecat said:


> They might be crap jobs but the veg didnt just climb out the ground and throw themselves into the crates noush. Not sure abt laughing stock as we wouldn't have mass. Migration that we have to be fair we must be doing something rite to attract the hundreds of thousands we do legally and non legal entry


Theresa May has reduced us to a global laughing stock. This is absolutely brilliant from Australia:Hilarious


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Theresa May has reduced us to a global laughing stock. This is absolutely brilliant from Australia:Hilarious


They just had to include the naughtiest thing she claims to have ever done. Running through a field of wheat.:Hilarious

Erm, isn't stealing millions from the poor, the sick, the elderly and the disabled, slightly naughtier?


----------



## emmaviolet

@Creativecat

You never replied to me about housing in your town, nor are any of your posts subsequently about housing.

Maybe you could post now about housing and how you feel leaving the EU will help the situation?


----------



## Creativecat

emmaviolet said:


> @Creativecat
> 
> You never replied to me about housing in your town, nor are any of your posts subsequently about housing.
> 
> Maybe you could post now about housing and how you feel leaving the EU will help the situation?


Ok the housing on my town is strained to say the least. As we have the home office and asylum application departments not 800 yrds to
Our croydon housing and administration it does have a very huge knock on affect . I personally know Freinds tht have been treated appallingly by our local authority regarding housing waiting lists and its sad when there over looked by the influx of visitors that get priority 
. I'm sorry but no one can genuinely tell me this is right . My Freinds don't want priority just a level playing field I guess . In all fairness I'm not sure why leaving the EU will make it all ok but maybe it's wishful thinking wanting something better than what ur seeing around you I feel whether that will happen realistically is another thing I guess


----------



## Happy Paws2

samuelsmiles said:


> I'd love to move to the south of France too - into a chateux in 10 acres of land and a Ferrari Dino 246 parked on the drive. Brexit and Theresa May's right cocked up my dreams, though.


I'd have been very happy with a small bungalow and garden if we had the money, it's to late for us our pension isn't enough to live over there and with the exchange rate it would be even worse. We have friends there who we meet on holiday, they moved there in the 1980's they have worked there and are having a good live.


----------



## emmaviolet

Creativecat said:


> Ok the housing on my town is strained to say the least. As we have the home office and asylum application departments not 800 yrds to
> Our croydon housing and administration it does have a very huge knock on affect . I personally know Freinds tht have been treated appallingly by our local authority regarding housing waiting lists and its sad when there over looked by the influx of visitors that get priority
> . I'm sorry but no one can genuinely tell me this is right . My Freinds don't want priority just a level playing field I guess . In all fairness I'm not sure why leaving the EU will make it all ok but maybe it's wishful thinking wanting something better than what ur seeing around you I feel whether that will happen realistically is another thing I guess


Thank you for admitting you do not know why leaving the EU will help.

I do not know your friends circumstances, and whether they are in need of social housing, likewise I do not know the circumstances of those you see claiming asylum, nor if they even get asylum or any help afterwards. I cannot tell you if it is right or wrong without knowing the details of both situations, in all fairness.

I will say that people claiming asylum are most likely not from EU countries, so leaving the EU will likely not change this one bit. The 'visitors' are again, most likely not from EU countries and that will remain after we leave the EU.
Also the UK has always been in charge of out immigration, we are able to set our own limits.

Immigration/migration and people seeking asylum will not end with us leaving the EU, like you said, it's just wishful thinking.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> They just had to include the naughtiest thing she claims to have ever done. Running through a field of wheat.:Hilarious
> 
> Erm, isn't stealing millions from the poor, the sick, the elderly and the disabled, slightly naughtier?


LOL Int it brilliant?

That's actually the first thing that jumped into my mind. And what about her latest naughty deed? Finding a magic money tree to bribe the despicable DUP with.










Look at these Zaros! Sand sculptures of May in a field of wheat being chased by Corbyn on a fox


----------



## Goblin

Creativecat said:


> I'm sorry but no one can genuinely tell me this is right .


No it's not but as already has been stated, this isn't anything to do with the EU.



> My Freinds don't want priority just a level playing field I guess.


One of the goals of the EU system is that EU immigrants staying in the UK cannot be treated any different to natives if they are in employment. After 3 months to be eligible to stay they must be in employment or be able to support themselves financially (including covering medical expenses). Seems fair to me to not allow working immigrants to be able to be treated as 2nd class citizens. Nothing in EU rules provide them with any preferential treatment. Any potential blame should not be directed towards the EU but the local authorities and the UK government and it's policies. EU has been used as a scapegoat.



> In all fairness I'm not sure why leaving the EU will make it all ok but maybe it's wishful thinking wanting something better than what ur seeing around you I feel whether that will happen realistically is another thing I guess


Unfortunately looking at the facts, the majority of the country will suffer due to wishful thinking. There was a significant vote for leave in the referendum which had nothing to do with the EU but disatisfaction with the UK government policies and problems with society. If you look through this thread, those pushing leave have been unable to say how brexit will actually improve life for people using facts.


----------



## Creativecat

To say the significant decision to leave the EU was nothing to do with the EU but the governments policies and society a bit disingenuous to be fair . I think it was perceived the free movement of people from the EU played a massive part in the uks decision to leave amongst other things rightly or wrongley but its true


----------



## Goblin

Creativecat said:


> To say the significant decision to leave the EU was nothing to do with the EU but the governments policies and society a bit disingenuous to be fair . I think it was perceived the free movement of people from the EU played a massive part in the uks decision to leave amongst other things rightly or wrongley but its true


Ah but free movement.. what does it actually mean to people? How was it promoted by the leave campaign? You yourself admit you don't know how leaving will help housing as, has been pointed out, it has nothing to do with the EU. Why have you connected EU/free movement with the problem?


----------



## Creativecat

Goblin said:


> Ah but free movement.. what does it actually mean to people? How was it promoted by the leave campaign? You yourself admit you don't know how leaving will help housing as, has been pointed out, it has nothing to do with the EU. Why have you connected EU/free movement with the problem?


I beleived leaving the EU the uk will govern its own laws Im thinking abt social housing and priorities . To be fair I don't know what or who to beleive in now .


----------



## Guest

Since our memory is bad and Brexit promises seem to fade away even faster, I picked some just to fresh up them.

Luckily May has a friend supporting her. No other comments.










NHS - remember the promise that was never said really. Nope. Not really.










For some reason many did think NHS will get more funding after Brexit, as they thought EU just robbed UK and that is why UK never had enough money for NHS.










Oops, did we say that. But it wasnt me. I had nothing to do with that. No. It was someone else.










Still, May & Co keeps paddling. Arriving strong and stable to negotiate with UK.


----------



## Goblin

Creativecat said:


> I beleived leaving the EU the uk will govern its own laws Im thinking abt social housing and priorities . To be fair I don't know what or who to beleive in now .


You'll notice that people cannot specify laws which are harmful which have been forced on the UK. In general we govern our own laws and how "EU requirements" are actually implemented. Certain sectors, the environment, trade, fishing and agriculture the EU does have more influence. Part of the reason is due to the single market and ensuring a level playing field as well as standards. You need commonality to enable "free trade". Other areas, welfare, social security, education, law and health have very little to do with the EU.

People keep saying they weren't influenced by the lies of the leave campaign. Strangely all they can do is repeat them.


----------



## Creativecat

In all fairness I don't think the remain did a good job either tbh.,maybe if they did we wouldn't being leaving the EU


----------



## Creativecat

So free trade yes . You say welfare social security the health services education has nothing to do with the EU . So your saying the mass migration of EU and non EU citizens haven't had an impact on the uk what sbt helpin to run the nhs and other areas but not everything I think uv scored an Own goal maybe :0) respectfully


----------



## KittenKong

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/b...act-jobs-economy-immigration-2017-6?r=UK&IR=T


----------



## Creativecat

Re edited lol I tried to amend the last post as I see what you meant as the laws are nothing to do with the eu . I
Misread I apologise


----------



## Goblin

Creativecat said:


> Re edited lol I tried to amend the last post as I see what you meant as the laws are nothing to do with the eu . I
> Misread I apologise


Accepted.

Even immigration via free movement if you look at it isn't really the bugbear it is made out to be. Rules are in place to avoid exploitation, exploitation of both the immigrants themselves and the country where they have travelled to. Who should be responsible for enforcing those rules, especially when if the EU enforced those rules people would shout out they were interfering and overriding that countries sovereignty? Even the european court of justice upholds the idea that people cannot become a burden on a country under the idea of free movement. Think about it.. do you think that other countries such as Germany and France would accept people immigrating in from the EU simply to sponge off the state? In the democratic EU system, those are the 2 countries which actually hold the most votes on new policies.

Immigration from outside the EU.. how is that going to be affected.. abolishing certain human rights seems to be the answer.



Creativecat said:


> In all fairness I don't think the remain did a good job either tbh.,maybe if they did we wouldn't being leaving the EU


Totally agree, the remain campaign was a joke, focused on negative campaigning rather than pointing out all the advantages the EU actually gives and failing to correct the lies of the leave campaign.


----------



## Dr Pepper

[


KittenKong said:


> http://nordic.businessinsider.com/b...act-jobs-economy-immigration-2017-6?r=UK&IR=T
> View attachment 316080


We won't know if that's true or not until the end of negotiations.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> [
> 
> We won't know if that's true or not until the end of negotiations.


Reading it, the post references what HAS happened.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Reading it, the post references what HAS happened.


Yes, and until negotiations have completed nothing is certain. So lets wait and see, we might be quids in. You don't know, I don't know, no one knows today.


----------



## Goblin

Maybe you can explain how we could be "quids in" using little things like facts rather than wishful thinking.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Maybe you can explain how we could be "quids in" using little things like facts rather than wishful thinking.


There are no facts until negotiations are complete, until then it's speculation as to how we will fare WHEN we leave the EU. What's happening in the markets today doesn't have any bearing on what will happen, with whatever deals (or no deals) we get when leave.

Me, I'm positive it'll all be good. After all a simply opinion poll persuaded the government to leave the EU and better still they went through the courts to make it legally binding. The future is bright.


----------



## Goblin

There are plenty of facts and many have been posted, you just don't like them. Tell me how many trade deals outside the single market will we have in place to replace those of the EU when we leave? That's nothing to do with negotiations.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> There are plenty of facts and many have been posted, you just don't like them. Tell me how many trade deals outside the single market will we have in place to replace those of the EU when we leave? That's nothing to do with negotiations.


No, you tell me. You don't know, I don't know. They might all be in place by 2019, they might not (no the EU can't stop us negotiating with other countries what we will do when we are out outside the EU, the can only stop us negotiating what we would like to do whilst in the EU). So try being positive.


----------



## emmaviolet

Creativecat said:


> I beleived leaving the EU the uk will govern its own laws Im thinking abt social housing and priorities . To be fair I don't know what or who to beleive in now .


We already govern our own laws, completely.

Any EU laws we take up have been through our choice, not all countries abide by them all, we actually was one of the ones who followed more than some, again by our own choice.

Our social housing rules and how many were built have always been up to us, the EU had no say at all, it was all our own government always ruling on social housing and their priorities. Leaving the EU cannot change that for the better as it has no real bearing.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> No, you tell me. You don't know, I don't know. They might all be in place by 2019, they might not (no the EU can't stop us negotiating with other countries what we will do when we are out outside the EU, the can only stop us negotiating what we would like to do whilst in the EU). So try being positive.


The answer is 0. Until we leave the EU we may not negotiate trade deals which normally take years to make. That's facts, not wishful thinking.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> The answer is 0. Until we leave the EU we may not negotiate trade deals which normally take years to make. That's facts, not wishful thinking.


No you are mistaken, we can negotiate whatever we like, with whoever we like for deals after 2019. It has nothing to do with the EU as it won't effect them. Obviously we couldn't negotiate trade deals that would commence whilst we are still in the EU, that would be stupid.

So the answer is you don't know the outcome, and neither do I.


----------



## leashedForLife

.
.
approx 2:30 local time [7:30-pm, UK time], TM announced that _"no families will be split up"_ by Brexit. 
.
http://time.com/4833481/theresa-may-european-union-brexit-london-united-kingdom/
.
QUOTE,
_"... no one from the EU who is now in Britain lawfully will be made to leave when Brexit happens."_
.
I'll believe her when i see couples who are both E-U cits, or 1 U-K & 1 E-U, with any kids, are settling into a house purchase, a long-term 5-yr rental, the high-school froshies are choosing their UK colleges, etc. // For now, i think it's just window-dressing & means nichts.
.
.
.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> No you are mistaken, we can negotiate whatever we like, with whoever we like for deals after 2019. It has nothing to do with the EU as it won't effect them. Obviously we couldn't negotiate trade deals that would commence whilst we are still in the EU, that would be stupid.


So, we will have 0 trade deals as stated when we leave. That is fact. Notice how it's now after 2019 in your post. Previously by 2019. We will be trying to play catch up with far less negotiating power than the EU whose trade deals we are throwing away and the deals we currently benefit from. Great future. For what advantages?


----------



## Elles

One of the questions that I began to ask myself recently is why did socialists want to stay in the Eu. I wasn't participating in petforums at the time of the referendum and it would take me too long to read back through, so I don't know if this was talked about already, but I thought I'd look it up.

http://socialistreview.org.uk/404/eu-referendum-should-we-stay-or-should-we-go

http://m.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/22495

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-i-am-voting-for-lexit-eu-brexit-out-a7093151.html

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/42232/Fight+to+exit+left+after+vote+on+EU+is+called

Oh. Appears that they didn't. 

However, here is an anti Eu but pro remain, fearing a greater Conservative majority and pretty much the end of Corbyn and the left if people vote leave, which is quite funny now we can see the 'after'.

http://socialistresistance.org/why-lexit-is-an-illusion/8422


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> No you are mistaken, we can negotiate whatever we like, with whoever we like for deals after 2019. It has nothing to do with the EU as it won't effect them. Obviously we couldn't negotiate trade deals that would commence whilst we are still in the EU, that would be stupid.
> 
> *So the answer is you don't know the outcome, and neither do* I.


Didn't you say something similar about Donald Trump? Those who analysed all the evidence _knew_ he would be a disaster for the USA & the same goes for brexit. Brexit has already been a disaster & we haven't even left yet.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ears-non-british-settled-status-a7808751.html

Wonder if TM will attempt to bribe some of the highly skilled EU workers to stay?

Who can blame them after the disgusting way they've been treated?


----------



## rona

I wonder why they are leaving it so long after we should be out


----------



## shadowmare

Oh goody! Now I will no longer be able to vote in the local elections either! Hurray! :Woot Mr May, you sure know how to make people feel welcomed and appreciated :Finger on the bright side, there will probably be some tenporary jobs created to deal with 3 million requests for those lovely ID cards :Happy


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I wonder why they are leaving it so long after we should be out


By 2022 means anytime between today and 2022, so very likely rather sooner than 2022... Remember some are students...still counted as " immigrants", finishing degree takes years...

I know some EU nationals in UK who are presently preparing the move...
Closing business there, opening new one etc...takes some time...so be patient....
No one wants to overstay their welcome if possible.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So, we will have 0 trade deals as stated when we leave. That is fact. Notice how it's now after 2019 in your post. Previously by 2019. We will be trying to play catch up with far less negotiating power than the EU whose trade deals we are throwing away and the deals we currently benefit from. Great future. For what advantages?


No you misunderstood I think. There is no reason we can't negotiate deals now that will start after we leave the EU in 2019. So in theory the day we leave the negotiated deals kick in and there's no playing catch up or period with no deal in place.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> No you misunderstood I think. *There is no reason we can't negotiate deals now that will start after we leave the EU in 2019*. So in theory the day we leave the negotiated deals kick in and there's no playing catch up or period with no deal in place.


Er, yes there is - the SAME rules that prevent ALL EU member states from negotiating their own trade deals independently of the EU.

As has oft been said on here - "We haven't left yet!" Therefore, we can't start negotiating trade deals until we HAVE left membership.


----------



## Guest

Jesthar said:


> Er, yes there is - the SAME rules that prevent ALL EU member states from negotiating their own trade deals independently of the EU. As has oft been said on here - "We haven't left yet!" Therefore, we can't start negotiating trade deals until we HAVE left membership.


There are lots of nations wanting to break the EU union when doing business. Russia, North Korea etc. They hate EU regulations and can´t wait that UK will be free to sell anything they want to them. That might mean of course that UK will pay even more for EU in order to deal with EU, but hey, surely the people are happy to pay for that privilege. And was it a couple of months ago when Russia was creating lots of fake news for Trump, Le Penn and Ukip. I wonder if there is a connection there? What do you think?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> Er, yes there is - the SAME rules that prevent ALL EU member states from negotiating their own trade deals independently of the EU.
> 
> As has oft been said on here - "We haven't left yet!" Therefore, we can't start negotiating trade deals until we HAVE left membership.


But other states haven't invoked article 50. We can negotiate with whomever we like, whenever we like because the deals being discussed won't effect the EU. We'll obviously also be negotiating trade deals with EU itself, or you saying that can't happen until we've left?


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> But other states haven't invoked article 50. We can negotiate with whomever we like, whenever we like because the deals being discussed won't effect the EU. We'll obviously also be negotiating trade deals with EU itself, or you saying that can't happen until we've left?


So we'll negotiate deals and treaties involving trust by demonstrating how prepared we are to break deals and treaties when it becomes convenient. Great idea. Not only do we show how we view treaties but we obvious create a great reputation as we go it alone. Also great in terms of developing trust and good feelings with the rest of the EU during any remaining leave negotiations.

Trade deals with the EU aren't breaking any agreement as it's internal politics, not outside.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So we'll negotiate deals and treaties involving trust by demonstrating how prepared we are to break deals and treaties when it becomes convenient. Great idea. Not only do we show how we view treaties but we obvious create a great reputation as we go it alone. Also great in terms of developing trust and good feelings with the rest of the EU during any remaining leave negotiations.
> 
> .


I'm not usually one for providing links when someone doesn't agree. I don't whip out Google when chatting down the pub so it seems daft for it to be expected here all the time. But in this case I'll make an exception.

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/int-trade-before-exit.shtml


----------



## Goblin

Ah link to the group which disagrees with high court rulings as they don't match the leave propaganda they spout. http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-Article-50-Lawyers-for-Britain-EU-referendum. Says it all really. Then of course there's the little thing that trust and reputation is not simply legalities.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> I'm not usually one for providing links when someone doesn't agree. I don't whip out Google when chatting down the pub so it seems daft for it to be expected here all the time. But in this case I'll make an exception.
> 
> http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/int-trade-before-exit.shtml


Vice President of Lawyers for Britain is ...................... non other than Theresa Villiers

She's completely untrustworthy. This is unbelievable. James O'Brien shows how to hold politicians to account


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> I'm not usually one for providing links when someone doesn't agree. I don't whip out Google when chatting down the pub so it seems daft for it to be expected here all the time. But in this case I'll make an exception.
> 
> http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/int-trade-before-exit.shtml


And I'm not usually one for criticising sources, but Lawyers for Britain is a very small bunch with some very, let's say, singular views. They are pretty much alone in thinking we can negotiate trade deals before we leave the EU. Those in the camp who disagree with them include the UK government, so it isn't going to happen.

We can talk to other countries about their willingness to agree trade deals after Brexit, and lots have made positive noises about doing so - in part because they think they can get a better deal with us than they already have with the EU; us being smaller. But the detail of those deals is off limits.

Besides which, our trade negotiators are going to be just a bit busy over the next couple of years or so.

And if that wasn't enough, trade deals with other countries may well be dependent on what we agree with the EU in our negotiations with them. As you have rightly said, we don't know.


----------



## kimthecat

seen on Twitter after Georg Osbourne it was announced has another job. :Smuggrin

 *Andrew*‏@*RooKnight* 7h7 hours ago

Has anyone considered the possibility that it's actually *George Osborne* coming over here and taking our jobs?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Look at those scaremongers!























And Brexit has not even happened yet ...

But we are assured by both leading parties that this is the course in right direction....


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Look at those scaremongers!
> View attachment 316338
> View attachment 316339
> View attachment 316340
> 
> 
> And Brexit has not even happened yet ...
> 
> But we are assured by both leading parties that this is the course in right direction....


Time to buy collateralised credit default swaps.


----------



## Elles

3/4 of households are *forced* into credit? Really. The other 1/4 are the unemployed who can't get credit and the very wealthy who don't need it I suppose. 1/2 of people don't know the interest they're borrowing at and 1/3 are worried about it. Do they actually teach anything in schools?


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> 3/4 of households are *forced* into credit? Really. The other 1/4 are the unemployed who can't get credit and the very wealthy who don't need it I suppose. 1/2 of people don't know the interest they're borrowing at and 1/3 are worried about it. Do they actually teach anything in schools?


Been a long time since schools taught basic principles which aren't in set subjects. They teach you how to pass exams, not necessarily how to actually think and live in modern society.

As for credit, well get rid of car and accomodation and that "force" would probably be reduced substantially. Sure you can be without a car but then would you say public transport is cheap and efficient? Want to travel to say the lake district or blackpool with a family on public transport? Of course one of society's problems is that it is not hard to get into debt when you are playing "keep up with the jones' " and bombarded with credit opportunities. Wonder if I switch off ad block how many adverts for credit I'd suddenly come across.

Edit: something else to think about.. when we were younger, paying excessive amounts monthly for services such as phone or TV didn't really happen. Wonder how much is spent each month on families mobile phone bills. Used to be one phone per family, not each "needing" their own mobile.

Look at after the referendum, everything is fine, remain's campaign was based on "fear" nothing will change and we will be free and everything will improve. People praised even on this thread that consumer spending continued as proof that it was all the expert predictions were simply fear mongering. Thing is that "fear campaign" was based on reality. People needed and still need to be told the truth, not false propaganda to try to keep them happy.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Time to buy collateralised credit default swaps.


Or get indebted and inebriated.
Friday .


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Or get indebted and inebriated.
> Friday .


I prefer the latter, and as it happens to be Friday, I'm well on my way to being invertibrated...:Mooning


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Edit: something else to think about.. when we were younger, paying excessive amounts monthly for services such as phone or TV didn't really happen. Wonder how much is spent each month on families mobile phone bills. Used to be one phone per family, not each "needing" their own mobile.


Oh yea of forgetfulness, ye hath forgot the days of Radio Rentals, for the olde worlde TV, video recorder, hi-fi and fax machine mere mortals were otherwise devoid off.

Not much has changed really.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh yea of forgetfulness, ye hath forgot the days of Radio Rentals, for the olde worlde TV, video recorder, hi-fi and fax machine mere mortals were otherwise devoid off.


Don't know where you lived but we brought the TV, video or hifi or went without, we didn't buy a "service" tying ourselves into a contract for a minimum of a couple of years.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Don't know where you lived but we brought the TV, video or hifi or went without, we didn't buy a "service" tying ourselves into a contract for a minimum of a couple of years.


Don't know where you lived either. But from the 1930's to late 80's/early 90's (in the uk) the only way very many people could afford a radio and later TV's and video recorders was to rent them. It wasn't just for the less well off either.

Then again, thinking about it, credit cards took off in the 80's so people put it on the plastic and thought they had actually brought it!!

Nothing much has changed really.


----------



## Goblin

Disagee (no shock), most people I knew and we were far from well off owned their own TV and went without a video recorder if necessary. It was a luxury. There was likely only 1 TV in the house though. Remember saving for months before I could buy my first tape deck to listen to music.

You miss the point though, nowadays equipment is given away to tie people into service contracts, normally for minimum amounts of time such as a couple of years. Whereas before you had 1 TV in the house and possibly 1 phone, now every person in the household is likely to have a mobile under a service contract. Say 4 people, each paying monthly. Then you have internet connection although people used to have a phone line. Not essential though and most people can probably remember popping down to the corner to use the telephone box. People used to save and buy, not have to be locked in to continual monthly expense. There used to be a drive that if you couldn't afford it, you didn't get it. Yes you had the essentials but the "essentials" were far less than today's materialistic "needs". That has changed with credit being pushed on people by marketing even if they cannot really afford it. Nothing shows this more than when the "latest" mobile phone comes out. In my opinion people are far more materialistic.


----------



## shadowmare

I'm still waiting for Boris to lean over the negotiations table and threaten EU with "If you don't give us what we want, you will no longer get our stuff...and cake! Yes, no more British cake for you!"


----------



## Elles

Isn't he getting a bit old to be acting the buffoon? We don't need buffoons any more than the French need our cake. They beheaded Marie Antoinette over cake.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Disagee (no shock), most people I knew and we were far from well off owned their own TV and went without a video recorder if necessary. It was a luxury. There was likely only 1 TV in the house though. Remember saving for months before I could buy my first tape deck to listen to music.
> 
> You miss the point though, nowadays equipment is given away to tie people into service contracts, normally for minimum amounts of time such as a couple of years. Whereas before you had 1 TV in the house and possibly 1 phone, now every person in the household is likely to have a mobile under a service contract. Say 4 people, each paying monthly. Then you have internet connection although people used to have a phone line. Not essential though and most people can probably remember popping down to the corner to use the telephone box. People used to save and buy, not have to be locked in to continual monthly expense. There used to be a drive that if you couldn't afford it, you didn't get it. Yes you had the essentials but the "essentials" were far less than today's materialistic "needs". That has changed with credit being pushed on people by marketing even if they cannot really afford it. Nothing shows this more than when the "latest" mobile phone comes out. In my opinion people are far more materialistic.


I agree. But thirty years ago we didn't have mobiles, computers, broadband, tablets, fitbits, games consoles and sky TV. There's simply a lot more to be materialistic about. As you say we had one TV, no phone (10p to listen to dial-a-disc in the phone box, bit different to iTunes!!) and the first VCR I rented from radio rentals when I was 16 because they were stupidly expensive, unlike today though they didn't tie you into years of contract it was three months then rolling monthly. Yes people want more today because there is a hell of a lot more to desire. It's a simple as that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> I agree. But thirty years ago we didn't have mobiles, computers, broadband, tablets, fitbits, games consoles and sky TV. There's simply a lot more to be materialistic about. As you say we had one TV, no phone (10p to listen to dial-a-disc in the phone box, bit different to iTunes!!) and the first VCR I rented from radio rentals when I was 16 because they were stupidly expensive, unlike today though they didn't tie you into years of contract it was three months then rolling monthly. Yes people want more today because there is a hell of a lot more to desire. It's a simple as that.


Think it is a bit of both. But there is a culture of debts .
When one of our stepchildren was rebuked for being overdraft she just said " but everybody is"!.
Definitely they have no need for new car, the latest phone, etc if her OH is without work, has not worked for years?

People in UK have more household debts than other EU countries, it is a danger for economy as you can imagine.
Ticking bomb.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> I agree. But *thirty years ago we didn't have mobiles, computers, broadband, tablets, fitbits, games consoles and sky TV. There's simply a lot more to be materialistic about. As you say we had one TV, no phone (10p to listen to dial-a-disc in the phone box, bit different to iTunes!!) and the first VCR I rented from radio rentals when I was 16 because they were stupidly expensive*, unlike today though they didn't tie you into years of contract it was three months then rolling monthly. Yes people want more today because there is a hell of a lot more to desire. It's a simple as that.


You were lucky ... etc


----------



## noushka05

Chomsky...


----------



## kimthecat

Dr Pepper said:


> Don't know where you lived either. But from the 1930's to late 80's/early 90's (in the uk) the only way very many people could afford a radio and later TV's and video recorders was to rent them. It wasn't just for the less well off either.
> 
> .


Yes . we rented a telly in the 60/70s from radio rentals and also phones were rented . I believe there is a law now that says if you rent fora certain amount of time , you can keep the item and not pay anymore rent .


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> Think it is a bit of both. But there is a culture of debts .
> When one of our stepchildren was rebuked for being overdraft she just said " but everybody is"!.
> Definitely they have no need for new car, the latest phone, etc if her OH is without work, has not worked for years?
> 
> People in UK have more household debts than other EU countries, it is a danger for economy as you can imagine.
> Ticking bomb.


I agree.

Now can we return to our default of disagreement please


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Yes . we rented a telly in the 60/70s from radio rentals and also phones were rented . I believe there is a law now that says if you rent fora certain amount of time , you can keep the item and not pay anymore rent .


Some great memories about rental here.
https://www.transdiffusion.org/2004/01/01/rentals

I believe the first firm to offer rent to buy was Rumbalows.

Yes indeed phones were rented rather than purchased from the Post Office Telecommunications. I've seen '60s colour GPO film showing updating technology.

A farmer had his candlestick phone replaced by a nice new one!

Sorry to go off topic!


----------



## Guest

Looks like that reality has started to bite Brexit.

So this is what Boris promised and May backed up. "Theresa May's Lancaster House speech in January, in which she echoed Boris Johnson's boast that Britain can "have its cake and eat it" - enjoying full trade access without conceding over immigration, courts and payments is actually true"

And this is what Britain is facing:
"This is what your chancellor thinks now: "Hammond gave a speech in Berlin warning against allowing "petty politics to interfere with economic logic" and publicly ridiculing the "cake and eat it" approach. "
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ke-and-eat-it-approach-to-brexit-negotiations

British economy could suffer a lot, so all those, who are interested in the facts and like numbers, it might be good to keep on eye on these
https://www.ft.com/world/uk
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36956418.

And eventually, I presume it is this type of analysis, you´ll get your concrete results of Brexit.
"The Global Competitiveness Report 2016-2017, As the summary the experts forecasted: A distributional analysis of the longer-termconsequences of Brexit suggests that the costs will mostly fall on those with middle incomes, although the poor will not be spared from its impact. "

I know that this doesn´t make an easy reading, but these are the statistics investors base their decisions. (http://www3.weforum.org/docs/GCR201...lobalCompetitivenessReport2016-2017_FINAL.pdf page 14).


----------



## cheekyscrip

Basically downfall of The City and no access to single market will be such a blow to economy, that no trade deals with other countries could offset that and Hammond is quite clear about it.

NO CAKE for Britain.

Even daily bread might be harder to come by.
On plus side EU immigrants if hungry..might go?


----------



## Elles

Perhaps we'll all have to go on a plant based diet. 

The thing is, outside of the Eu we could make things better if we wanted to. We could go further than the Eu will allow on some issues. We won't, but we could.


----------



## Elles

Do you think your average bod cares about trade deals?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Do you think your average bod cares about trade deals?


They should, because that's what will drive the prices for on all our imports and the prices we will be paying in the shops.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> The thing is, outside of the Eu we could make things better if we wanted to. We could go further than the Eu will allow on some issues. We won't, but we could.


Inside the EU we could have made things better. We didn't. Instead things like the anti bee pesticide ban are having to be pushed through the EU to get us to adopt it and after we leave, who knows.



Elles said:


> Do you think your average bod cares about trade deals?


Well apparantly a lot of people believed we could replace them at a snap of our fingers as soon as we left the EU. Truth is each we lose around 80 and each one we lose could take 4+ years to get a worse arrangement. Leave pushed the ability to make our own trade deals as one of the main reasons to leave.. didn't explain the reality did they.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Do you think your average bod cares about trade deals?


Cares? Maybe.

Understands? No.


----------



## cheekyscrip

They will understand when revenue falls and holes appear in the budget...
Surely they understand" austerity" or " less money"?
This is what it means.

It also means marches, then riots as it hits the pockets....of those who voted for Leave, because were duped to think they would be better off.

While really rich will grow more money trees.


----------



## kimthecat

Now he tells us !

The brains behind the Brexit vote has admitted it might be possible that leaving the EU "will be an error" and the referendum itself was a "dumb idea".

Dominic Cummings, the campaign director for the official Vote Leave campaign, claimed "other things should have been tried first" before the referendum was called - suggesting he would have backed further attempts at reform.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-dominic-cummings-vote-leave_uk_595b62bbe4b02734df33fbc0


----------



## Guest

I believe that if people knew what they know now about Brexit, they will say:


----------



## noushka05

Brexit is killing our economy.


----------



## noushka05

Even champions of brexit are now waking up to reality.

Telegraphs political correspondent Rupert Myers:

*Rupert Myers*‏Verified [email protected]*RupertMyers* Jul 6

_Journalists, "lazy" businesspeople, the civil service - it's everybody's fault bar the people in charge of it - the ones who wanted it_ (his response to Liam Fox claiming the 'BBC would rather see Britain fail than Brexit succeed' )

.*Rupert Myers*‏Verified [email protected]*RupertMyers* Jul 6
I accepted the result, I encouraged others to give Brexit a chance (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/19/remainers-still-dont-get-fail-accept-result-wont-get-say-brexit/…) but no longer. That's it. Enough is enough.

It isn't going to work. It will most hurt those who voted for it.
I've lost my struggle to be optimistic about Brexit.
It's a shit idea.

,


----------



## Arnie83

Liam Fox complains about the BBC, saying that the Radio 4 business comment section has far more anti-Brexit business people on it than pro-Brexit. It seems to escape him that the vast majority of business people are anti-Brexit and that to try to present it as a 50 / 50 split would be a gross misrepresentation of reality.


----------



## Arnie83

And speaking of misrepresentations of reality ...

Sunday Times front page: Trump throws May a lifeline with trade deal

Sunday Telegraph front page: Brexit: May plays Trump card

Sunday Express front page: May is dealt Trump card on Brexit

All claiming that Trumps gibberish of a "very powerful trade deal very very soon" will somehow be so much in our favour that it will make up for the immediate crash that we face if May continues down the hard Brexit route.

We can't negotiate the details of a trade deal with the US until we have left the EU; something that Donny probably doesn't know, or believe if he does.

The US has inserted in the recent G20 communique section concerning free trade that (I paraphrase) they are allowed to protect any industries as they see fit - i.e. not free trade.

Trump bangs on about "America First!" and I haven't heard him stipulate an exception for the UK to get us out of a hole so we're more likely to get screwed than saved.

The average EU / US tariff is only 3% anyway, so 'free' wouldn't be that much of an improvement even if it happened.

It won't include services, which represents the vast majority of our GDP.

It will take years not necessarily to negotiate but certainly to implement, because there is always a long period to allow industries to prepare for the new deal. Whereas of course a hard Brexit will happen very suddenly on April 1st 2019, before we even start negotiating with the US.

And finally, Trump changes his mind as often as he washes his hair - or has it sent away for cleaning - and I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him. Assuming he lasts until 2019, let alone until the negotiations finish.

And according to the pro-Brexit press everything is suddenly supposed to be all right!?!? Give me strength!

Apologies for the lengthy rant, but it made me feel better.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Now Prince Philip of Spain comes to address parliament. 
Wonder what deal about Gibraltar that means?
So far as Treaty of Utrecht stands Spain gave Gibraltar to Britain in perpetuity.
Which both sides can most conveniently overlook and sell us to get best "possible deal".


----------



## noushka05

*Rachel Clarke*‏@doctor_oxford 8h8 hours ago
Given Trump's enthusiasm for a swift UK-US trade deal, here's a timely reminder of May's refusal to exempt NHS.

*Theresa May suggests UK health services could be part of US trade deal*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hs-us-trade-deal-brexit-torture-a7548156.html


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> *Rachel Clarke*‏@doctor_oxford 8h8 hours ago
> Given Trump's enthusiasm for a swift UK-US trade deal, here's a timely reminder of May's refusal to exempt NHS.
> 
> *Theresa May suggests UK health services could be part of US trade deal*
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hs-us-trade-deal-brexit-torture-a7548156.html


No more NHS at all for the poor, but Trump´s idea of "Trumpcare" . No wonder he is happy, it must be great to make America great, isn´t it. And surely you can rely on May´s and Trump´s wisdom and judgement. :Greedy :Greedy :Greedy


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> *Rachel Clarke*‏@doctor_oxford 8h8 hours ago
> Given Trump's enthusiasm for a swift UK-US trade deal, here's a timely reminder of May's refusal to exempt NHS.
> 
> *Theresa May suggests UK health services could be part of US trade deal*
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hs-us-trade-deal-brexit-torture-a7548156.html


Well that would indeed be most excellent news but I doubt that the current government has the authority to get it through or that Trump would be willing to swap for NYSE. One remains hopeful but,.... Nah.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> No more NHS at all for the poor, but Trump´s idea of "Trumpcare" . No wonder he is happy, it must be great to make America great, isn´t it. And surely you can rely on May´s and Trump´s wisdom and judgement. :Greedy :Greedy :Greedy


Trump & May are cut from the same cloth. A pair of morally bankrupt, duplicitous liars - profit comes before people & the planet every time. The conservatives both sides of the Atlantic believe in the marketisation of everything. They are parasites.

Taking our country back? How on earth can anyone believe this nonsense? 



Satori said:


> Well that would indeed be most excellent news but I doubt that the current government has the authority to get it through or that Trump would be willing to swap for NYSE. One remains hopeful but,.... Nah.


US private health firms have been circling like vulture over our NHS for years, May will hand it to them on a plate.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

We cant say we weren't warned.

*Ex-Sainsbury's CEO: Brexit means 'higher prices, less choice, and poorer quality' at supermarkets*

http://uk.businessinsider.com/ex-sainsburys-ceo-justin-king-brexit-effect-supermarkets-2017-7


----------



## noushka05

BREAKING NEWS.

*Guy Verhofstadt*‏Verified [email protected] 5h5 hours ago
The European Parliament urges May to fundamentally change her citizens proposal.

*Improve the Brexit offer to EU citizens, or we'll veto the deal*
Guy Verhofstadt
The British proposal treats EU citizens in the UK less favourably than even the Vote Leave manifesto did. In the European parliament, we can't accept this

• Guy Verhofstadt is lead Brexit negotiator for the European parliament

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...il&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-ad2186a0cb-189715629


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> BREAKING NEWS.
> 
> *Guy Verhofstadt*‏Verified [email protected] 5h5 hours ago
> The European Parliament urges May to fundamentally change her citizens proposal.
> 
> *Improve the Brexit offer to EU citizens, or we'll veto the deal*
> Guy Verhofstadt
> The British proposal treats EU citizens in the UK less favourably than even the Vote Leave manifesto did. In the European parliament, we can't accept this
> 
> • Guy Verhofstadt is lead Brexit negotiator for the European parliament
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...il&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-ad2186a0cb-189715629


 Can't have this can we. The EU are still trying to tell the superior UK what to do. Do they not realise Britannia rules the waves?!

Seriously, good on you Guy. You tell 'em!


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...paign-director-dominic-cummings-a7833351.html


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 317535


Which actually was one of the points in leaving. Our own elected politicians can fight amongst themselves for our best interests. Then if we don't like it, we vote them out.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Which actually was one of the points in leaving. Our own elected politicians can fight amongst themselves for our best interests. Then if we don't like it, we vote them out.


Yes, we don't want those foreign elected MEPs forcing rights on us.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Which actually was one of the points in leaving. Our own elected politicians can fight amongst themselves for our best interests. Then if we don't like it, we vote them out.


So which Fundamental Rights don't you agree with, then?


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Which actually was one of the points in leaving. Our own elected politicians can fight amongst themselves for our best interests. Then if we don't like it, we vote them out.


Actually in many constituencies no you can't. You only really have a choice of 2 people to vote for to begin with and many seats are already "decided" before you vote.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sir Bill Cash on 22nd June 2016 (The day before the Referendum). When he refers to the Prime Minister he is referring to David Cameron.

I like Sir Bill Cash alot and think he speaks alot of sense. Enjoy watching his video.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Sir Bill Cash on 22nd June 2016 (The day before the Referendum). When he refers to the Prime Minister he is referring to David Cameron.
> 
> I like Sir Bill Cash alot and think he speaks alot of sense. Enjoy watching his video.


Well that was a waste of nearly 12 minutes the man lives in cloud cuckoo land.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Well that was a waste of nearly 12 minutes the man lives in cloud cuckoo land.


That's your opinion and here is mine in reply I to what you said: Kier Starmer lives in lala land.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> That's your opinion and here is mine in reply I to what you said: Kier Starmer lives in lala land.


I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you, but maybe I'm not as easily fooled as some.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you, but maybe I'm not as easily fooled as some.


So is this the new rhetoric from the remainers, the vote leavers where fooled. Well I certainly was not.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> That's your opinion and here is mine in reply I to what you said: Kier Starmer lives in lala land.


Maybe you should simply fact check what he says. In fact why not start with 55% of laws are imposed on us by the EU. For that to be the case we need to lose votes in the EU at least 55% of the time. So tell me, do we lose votes in the EU 55% of the time? That's at the start of the video. When he can't start with facts, says enough about the rest of the video.

Let's ignore the fact that those who approve policy in the EU are elected with the UK as the third largest voice.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Maybe you should simply fact check what he says. In fact why not start with 55% of laws are imposed on us by the EU. For that to be the case we need to lose votes in the EU at least 55% of the time. So tell me, do we lose votes in the EU 55% of the time? That's at the start of the video. When he can't start with facts, says enough about the rest of the video.
> 
> Let's ignore the fact that those who approve policy in the EU are elected with the UK as the third largest voice.


Well as from yesterday the Government started bringing the thousands of EU laws over to the UK to repeal them so where have these thousands of EU laws come from that apparently according to you don't affect the UK come from? They do have influence on the UK because the UK Government are repealing them to put them into UK statute so they are law in the UK the day we leave the EU in 2019. Hmmm in your world these laws don't exists but in the real world they do and this is why they are being repealed. Also they are repealing the European Communities Act 1972 where the UK handed these laws to the EU.


----------



## Goblin

Many of these are nothing to do with the UK (rules for olives being an example given before). Some are necessary for things like standards to allow open trade. Others are recommendations, the method of implementation left to the nation states. Working together in a democracy to create common rules is not imposing. Repeal bill simply places them in a single location rather than spread out as they are at the moment.

Edit: According to the government itself, an average of 13.2% of UK instruments are EU-related http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN07092

Note: Related, not imposed


----------



## Arnie83

Full fact org ...

*In brief:* Simply counting laws does not consider that some laws have more impact than others. *Quoted figures have varied wildly from under 10% to 70%*. It's possible to justify many of these, depending on which definition of 'UK law' you look at, but *those at the higher end count EU rules that aren't really laws in any meaningful sense.*​
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> That's your opinion and here is mine in reply I to what you said: Kier Starmer lives in lala land.


I don't disagree with that. Anyone regardless of political persuasion who remotely believes the UK will benefit from Brexit is living in La La Land in my view.

Having said that, I hope he and Corbyn keep their word to oppose TM's "Great Repeal Bill" as it stands.

If it goes ahead as intended I can see the things the Tories hold dear to them like the repeal of the fox hunting ban going ahead without the "need" to debate it in parliament.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I don't disagree with that. Anyone regardless of political persuasion who remotely believes the UK will benefit from Brexit is living in La La Land in my view.
> 
> Having said that, I hope he and Corbyn keep their word to oppose TM's "Great Repeal Bill" as it stands.
> 
> If it goes ahead as intended I can see the things the Tories hold dear to them like the repeal of the fox hunting ban going ahead without the "need" to debate it in parliament.


Regarding the Great Repeal Bill it doesn't matter if Labour, SNP and Wales object because they have to have more MP's objecting from the Conservatives and DUP side which I doubt will happen as they will be party whipped like Corbyn done on the Article 50 bill.

They are only objecting on the 3rd Phase of the process about workers rights and the use of the Henry 8th measure not the entire repeal bill.

We won't know what happens until the debate and vote on the second reading in the Autumn after they have their summer break in Parliament. It can be rejected in the House of Lords but it will be voted against in Parliament who over rule the House of Lords (like what happened with the article 50 bill).


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding the Great Repeal Bill it doesn't matter if Labour, SNP and Wales object because they have to have more MP's objecting from the Conservatives and DUP side which I doubt will happen as they will be party whipped like Corbyn done on the Article 50 bill.
> 
> They are only objecting on the 3rd Phase of the process about workers rights and the use of the Henry 8th measure not the entire repeal bill.
> 
> We won't know what happens until the debate and vote on the second reading in the Autumn after they have their summer break in Parliament. It can be rejected in the House of Lords but it will be voted against in Parliament who over rule the House of Lords (like what happened with the article 50 bill).


You're right. The two issues Labour are objecting to are the most important ones. From her record I doubt very much May will back down on them.

The DUP will indeed vote with the government, they were bribed into doing so. With May's position significantly weakened many pro EU Tories could rebel against her.

I'm not holding my breath either way. As you say, we'll find out in the Autumn.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Full fact org ...
> 
> *In brief:* Simply counting laws does not consider that some laws have more impact than others. *Quoted figures have varied wildly from under 10% to 70%*. It's possible to justify many of these, depending on which definition of 'UK law' you look at, but *those at the higher end count EU rules that aren't really laws in any meaningful sense.*​
> https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/


The Department of Leaving the EU and PM are being quoted as saying thousands of laws that where handed over to the EU from the UK when the 1972 European Communities act came into force in the UK are going to be written back into UK law including all current EU laws so they can be repealed.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> The Department of Leaving the EU and PM are being quoted as saying thousands of laws that where handed over to the EU from the UK when the 1972 European Communities act came into force in the UK are going to be written back into UK law including all current EU laws so they can be repealed.


Not quite sure what you mean - in 1972 we didn't hand any laws over to the EU.

There are a number of areas where laws passed in the European Parliament must be implemented in the UK, mostly in the areas of single market regulation. If we want to keep trading with the EU at all, most of those regulations would still be applicable.

As the 'full fact' link I included made clear, the influence of the EU has been nowhere near as extensive as the likes of Bill Cash pretend. But that's the same approach as saying we will get £350 million back every week if we leave - it's a lie intended to make membership of the EU a more onerous situation than it is, and to exaggerate the so-called benefits of leaving.

Regarding Cash, as you say everyone is entitled to an opinion; mine is that he is an archetypal little Englander dinosaur who hankers for a past that never actually existed, and who represents a threat to progress.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Anyone regardless of political persuasion who remotely believes the UK will benefit from Brexit is living in La La Land in my view.


Well if they are 'in your view' you must be in La La Land too I guess.

Seriously though, I don't remotely care if the UK benefits from Brexit. Bigger fish to fry.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Well if they are 'in your view' you must be in La La Land too I guess.
> 
> Seriously though, I don't remotely care if the UK benefits from Brexit. Bigger fish to fry.


Such as, may I ask?


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> Well if they are 'in your view' you must be in La La Land too I guess.
> 
> Seriously though, I don't remotely care if the UK benefits from Brexit. Bigger fish to fry.


I think you'll find the majority who voted for Brexit believed they would benefit from it financially.

Very few voted to make themselves poorer.....


----------



## Elles

Some do vote to make themselves poorer, if they believe it will be of benefit to those worse off than themselves, the environment, public services, world economy, fisheries, farming, schools, all kinds of things. People don't necessarily vote selfishly.


----------



## cbcdesign

KittenKong said:


> I think you'll find the majority who voted for Brexit believed they would benefit from it financially.
> 
> Very few voted to make themselves poorer.....


Boy are they in for a shock then! Demographically it was the older retired generation that favoured Brexit and since their state pension comes from the treasury via taxation and tax receipts are likely to fall they certainly wont be better off. In fact if you think about it the Tory's wanted to remove the triple lock on pensions which is a bit of a clue that they think financing guaranteed rises in the future may be difficult. There is no doubt in my mind brexit is going to make our economy shrink initially nor grow. We may get back on our feet in time but it wont happen quickly.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> I think you'll find the majority who voted for Brexit believed they would benefit from it financially.
> 
> Very few voted to make themselves poorer.....


Not true!
Im going to be completely honest about this now, when we got the referendum I was absolutely shocked I never ever thought we would be given that opportunity. And tbh I didnt do any research either, I watched many debates but iah I can say NON swayed me! Because that is I had already made my mind up the moment the referendum was called. - and when the result came in it shocked me to the core, my thoughts were omg I am not the only one that is anti eu. But you know what?-at that moment I didnt really care whether we got out or not, we are voted to leave that was it we have proved a point that were were not happy with the way things were run. I never ever thought it would happen. And at this stage I would have cared less either way anyway it really was not that important to me.
But now how everything has turned out the demonstrations, corbyn and the great unwashed the attitude of many of the remainers the nastiness, and its all from the remain camp . Now!I am now completely for leaving.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I think you'll find the majority who voted for Brexit believed they would benefit from it financially.


That is untrue.

I certainly did not benefit in any way financially and don't know anyone who has. The only way I benefited from voting leave was seeing that many others wanted the same thing, to leave that club called the EU. Would I change my mind like many remainers hope that leave voters will? No never. Given the opportunity to vote again tomorrow I would vote exactly the same way I voted on the 23rd June 2016. I cannot wait until we leave the EU on or before the 29th March 2019.

In the words of Michel Barnier "all I hear is the sound of a clock ticking".


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> That is untrue.
> 
> I certainly did not benefit in any way financially and don't know anyone who has. The only way I benefited from voting leave was seeing that many others wanted the same thing, to leave that club called the EU. Would I change my mind like many remainers hope that leave voters will? No never. Given the opportunity to vote again tomorrow I would vote exactly the same way I voted on the 23rd June 2016. I cannot wait until we leave the EU on or before the 29th March 2019.
> 
> In the words of Michel Barnier "all I hear is the sound of a clock ticking".


That about sums it up Stockwell I wasn't that bothered when I voted but now there is nothing I want more. And I think actually the opposite is true those that voted to remain were thinking more financially for themselves.
And for the record either way I would be financially worse off I can't get my pension till I'm 66 anyway we don't have any benefits whatsoever , none, everything we have we pay for. fortunately we saved long and hard to enjoy the financial security we have Now and no one can take that away from us. If prices Rise will just have to dig deep if they don't then thats a bonus.


----------



## Elles

Brexiters and Tory voters aren't out on the streets waving placards asking for higher pay for themselves, Corbyn's head on a stake, or more benefits. They're tightening their belts and hoping that if they're careful now the future will be better for themselves, their children and their children's children. If they complain at all it's often on behalf of others, such as the disabled, not themselves. Many low paid workers vote Tory, but no one asks them why, just assume they're too thick to vote Labour and make it easier for themselves. Older people who voted Brexit, or Tory despite how it might effect them, are often voting for others, yet get accused of trying to ruin everything for the young.

They're the ones who get called greedy and selfish, when quite often they're anything but.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Such as, may I ask?


I think viewing this in terms of 'Benefit to the U.K.' puts a far too narrow a perspective on it. I take a bigger picture view. What on earth does benefit to the UK mean anyway? GDP growth? Is that the be all and end all?

It does seem ironic that those people who keep banging on about 'where are the benefits for the UK' are exactly the same people who then constantly accuse Leave voters of being small minded nationalists.

The world is a big place if you open your eyes.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> I think you'll find the majority who voted for Brexit believed they would benefit from it financially.
> 
> Very few voted to make themselves poorer.....


Then if they really did that and don't consequently benefit they got it wrong I guess. More fool them. Personally, I did benefit financially I admit (not by a life changing sum but a nice little bonus) but that was far, far from my mind when I voted because tbh, like @DT, it never occurred to me that the vote would really go the way it did. I am still as chuffed as mint balls.


----------



## Arnie83

I voted remain because I think the future of mankind is better served by blurring national boundaries than by reinforcing them.

We can see what happens when borders are 'strengthened' by looking at the US. Relations with Mexico - criminal and rapists who will pay for a beautiful wall to keep them out. An immigration bill passed to exclude, specifically, Muslims. Withdrawal from the Paris accord to save the planet so that the USA doesn't suffer economically. Trade deals that will be "America First!". It isn't just Trump, because people voted him in and continue to support him. And what is all that going to lead to in the future? Will it bring countries and religions together or drive a wedge between them? Will it engender peace, or conflict?

That's why I voted remain. It wasn't for myself at all.


Now, in purely economic terms there is no way that the UK is going to be better off in the short or medium term. In the long term it is also vanishingly unlikely, but there will have been so many other things happening that pointing to a single cause & effect will simply not be possible.

But if anyone thinks that voting us out will help the poor, will improve public services, will safeguard the NHS, will bring more money into the country through reduced "£350m a week" fees etc. then, however selfless their intentions, I'm afraid they are wrong. In the next decade those least able to cope financially will be the very ones who suffer most. The next generation will have to deal with the debt that will inevitably rise. I have no beef with anyone who believed differently, for whatever reason.

But I think that some people - how many, I have no idea, nor if anyone (still!) reading this qualifies - voted to Leave simply because they want the UK to be separate from Europe. To stand alone without any influence from other nations or international bodies.

In doing so they voted for the purity of the British tribe while ignoring, or not caring, about the damage it would do to the members of that tribe, and especially the poorer ones. It also ignores the damage it might do to humanity in the future. If I get annoyed with any Leave voters, it's only the ones who knowingly follow those throwback tribal instincts.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I voted remain because I think the future of mankind is better served by blurring national boundaries than by reinforcing them.
> 
> We can see what happens when borders are 'strengthened' by looking at the US. Relations with Mexico - criminal and rapists who will pay for a beautiful wall to keep them out. An immigration bill passed to exclude, specifically, Muslims. Withdrawal from the Paris accord to save the planet so that the USA doesn't suffer economically. Trade deals that will be "America First!". It isn't just Trump, because people voted him in and continue to support him. And what is all that going to lead to in the future? Will it bring countries and religions together or drive a wedge between them? Will it engender peace, or conflict?
> 
> That's why I voted remain. It wasn't for myself at all.
> 
> Now, in purely economic terms there is no way that the UK is going to be better off in the short or medium term. In the long term it is also vanishingly unlikely, but there will have been so many other things happening that pointing to a single cause & effect will simply not be possible.
> 
> But if anyone thinks that voting us out will help the poor, will improve public services, will safeguard the NHS, will bring more money into the country through reduced "£350m a week" fees etc. then, however selfless their intentions, I'm afraid they are wrong. In the next decade those least able to cope financially will be the very ones who suffer most. The next generation will have to deal with the debt that will inevitably rise. I have no beef with anyone who believed differently, for whatever reason.
> 
> But I think that some people - how many, I have no idea, nor if anyone (still!) reading this qualifies - voted to Leave simply because they want the UK to be separate from Europe. To stand alone without any influence from other nations or international bodies.
> 
> In doing so they voted for the purity of the British tribe while ignoring, or not caring, about the damage it would do to the members of that tribe, and especially the poorer ones. It also ignores the damage it might do to humanity in the future. If I get annoyed with any Leave voters, it's only the ones who knowingly follow those throwback tribal instincts.


Well I agree with most of what you say in that post and it all leads me to a conclusion to vote leave.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> I think viewing this in terms of 'Benefit to the U.K.' puts a far too narrow a perspective on it. I take a bigger picture view. What on earth does benefit to the UK mean anyway? GDP growth? Is that the be all and end all?
> 
> It does seem ironic that those people who keep banging on about 'where are the benefits for the UK' are exactly the same people who then constantly accuse Leave voters of being small minded nationalists.
> 
> The world is a big place if you open your eyes.


See my post above. (Edit: with which you apparently agree)

Are you suggesting that Brexit will somehow benefit the wider world? I'd be interested to know how.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> See my post above. (Edit: with which you apparently agree)
> 
> Are you suggesting that Brexit will somehow benefit the wider world? I'd be interested to know how.


Brexit on its own doesn't. The complete destruction of the EU would imo. That is what I voted for and I believe it is inevitable, if not in my lifetime maybe. I shall be proud to have been part of knocking the first nail into the coffin if/when it does. I take global multi-generational view.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I think you'll find the majority who voted for Brexit believed they would benefit from it financially.
> 
> Very few voted to make themselves poorer.....


I didn't and I know I shall be a little poorer.

As a poor Brexit voter who will probably be worse off and know it and knew it when I voted, I wouldn't change my mind, not for all the tea in China, and I love my tea


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Brexit on its own doesn't. The complete destruction of the EU would imo. That is what I voted for and I believe it is inevitable, if not in my lifetime maybe. I shall be proud to have been part of knocking the first nail into the coffin if/when it does. *I take global multi-generational view*.


Interesting; because that is exactly what I do, and I reach the opposite conclusion.

For me, the EU needs considerable ongoing reform. E.g. CAP still needs big changes. And some, I know, think it is protectionist, but it has 50 'free trade agreements' and is negotiating more; the most recent being with Japan, and they are beginning talks with Australia. Etc.

But we know that it changes - many people complained during the referendum that it had changed too much since we joined - and it will continue to do so; though sadly without our influence guiding those changes.

There is no guarantee about its future form, but while it is there it represents the biggest international body tying individual countries together in a way that makes internal conflict unthinkable. It is not an empire of the past, all (?) of which were created through conquest or annexation - not a model conducive to long term success - but rather through choice and cooperation (characterised by much bickering, but humans can't change overnight!)

My vision of the future is not exactly Lennonesque, in that I don't "imagine there's no country", but I can imagine a world bound together in such a way that national borders are no more significant than British county boundaries or French _departments_. And that's where I want the human race to go, facing and overcoming each hurdle on the way, of which there will be many.

The EU may not survive in the long term, but for me it represents a step towards that future, a model from which we can learn and on which we can build. Or, maybe, a model we can replace with something bigger and better. But to hope for it to fail now, or, worse, actively to try to tear it down seems to me unmitigatedly retrograde. To divide Europe back into a myriad self-interested national states competing with each other and seeking somehow to 'win' and further their own agendas is to ignore history, and those who do that are inevitably bound to repeat it.

But that's my view. Yours is ... ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well this morning Tony Blair came out of the woodwork again, but seriously who is going to listen to him. He is saying that the UK can stay in the EU if the EU reforms free movement (there is no chance this will happen by the way). Well only two or three days ago the chief negotiator Michel Barnier was saying the four freedoms of movement are none negotiable if the UK wants to stay in the single market (well the UK wants to control immigration so there goes the freedom of movement of people which is what the UK Brexit negotiating team are aiming for). Blair should stay in lala land and keep his comments to himself as he is so out of touch with reality.

Oops I better be quiet as I might have the remainers trying to influence me to change my mind like Blair commanded them to do not so long ago, that didn't work either.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Well this morning Tony Blair came out of the woodwork again, but seriously who is going to listen to him. He is saying that the UK can stay in the EU if the EU reforms free movement (there is no chance this will happen by the way). Well only two or three days ago the chief negotiator Michel Barnier was saying the four freedoms of movement are none negotiable if the UK wants to stay in the single market (well the UK wants to control immigration so there goes the freedom of movement of people which is what the UK Brexit negotiating team are aiming for). Blair should stay in lala land and keep his comments to himself as he is so out of touch with reality.
> 
> Oops I better be quiet as I might have the remainers trying to influence me to change my mind like Blair commanded them to do not so long ago, that didn't work either.


"Who is going to listen to him?" Sensible people. He talks to European leaders, he isn't an idiot, and he knows a lot more than we do.

As for Barnier; well he wold say that in public, wouldn't he. But there have been many reports in the last few months regarding the possibility of the reform of freedom of movement. Not its removal, but its reform. To say that "there is no chance this will happen" is to claim an unjustifiable prescience.

What needs to be considered is what 'the people' voted for a year ago. Was it to leave the 'common market', or was it to gain control over immigration? If it was the latter, then a refusal even to discuss it with the 27 would seem to be driven by ideology rather than concern for the will of the people.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting; because that is exactly what I do, and I reach the opposite conclusion.
> 
> For me, the EU needs considerable ongoing reform. E.g. CAP still needs big changes. And some, I know, think it is protectionist, but it has 50 'free trade agreements' and is negotiating more; the most recent being with Japan, and they are beginning talks with Australia. Etc.
> 
> But we know that it changes - many people complained during the referendum that it had changed too much since we joined - and it will continue to do so; though sadly without our influence guiding those changes.
> 
> There is no guarantee about its future form, but while it is there it represents the biggest international body tying individual countries together in a way that makes internal conflict unthinkable. It is not an empire of the past, all (?) of which were created through conquest or annexation - not a model conducive to long term success - but rather through choice and cooperation (characterised by much bickering, but humans can't change overnight!)
> 
> My vision of the future is not exactly Lennonesque, in that I don't "imagine there's no country", but I can imagine a world bound together in such a way that national borders are no more significant than British county boundaries or French _departments_. And that's where I want the human race to go, facing and overcoming each hurdle on the way, of which there will be many.
> 
> The EU may not survive in the long term, but for me it represents a step towards that future, a model from which we can learn and on which we can build. Or, maybe, a model we can replace with something bigger and better. But to hope for it to fail now, or, worse, actively to try to tear it down seems to me unmitigatedly retrograde. To divide Europe back into a myriad self-interested national states competing with each other and seeking somehow to 'win' and further their own agendas is to ignore history, and those who do that are inevitably bound to repeat it.
> 
> But that's my view. Yours is ... ?


There were six men of Hindustan,
to learning much inclined,
Who went to see an elephant,
though all of them were blind,
That each by observation
might satisfy his mind.

The first approached the elephant,
and happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
at once began to bawl,
"This mystery of an elephant
is very like a wall."

The second, feeling of the tusk,
cried, "Ho, what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an elephant
is very like a spear."

The third approached the elephant,
and happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
thus boldly up and spake,
"I see," quoth he,
"the elephant is very like a snake."

The fourth reached out an eager hand,
and felt above the knee,
"What this most wondrous beast
is like is very plain" said he,
"'Tis clear enough the elephant
is very like a tree."

The fifth who chanced to touch the ear
said, "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
deny the fact who can;
This marvel of an elephant
is very like a fan."

The sixth no sooner had begun
about the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
that fell within his scope;
"I see," said he, "the elephant
is very like a rope."

So six blind men of Hindustan
disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
exceeding stiff and strong;
Though each was partly in the right,
they all were in the wrong!

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
_And prate about an Elephant_
_Not one of them has seen!_

_John Godrey Saxe_


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> There were six men of Hindustan,
> to learning much inclined,
> Who went to see an elephant,
> though all of them were blind,
> That each by observation
> might satisfy his mind.
> 
> The first approached the elephant,
> and happening to fall
> Against his broad and sturdy side,
> at once began to bawl,
> "This mystery of an elephant
> is very like a wall."
> 
> The second, feeling of the tusk,
> cried, "Ho, what have we here,
> So very round and smooth and sharp?
> To me 'tis mighty clear,
> This wonder of an elephant
> is very like a spear."
> 
> The third approached the elephant,
> and happening to take
> The squirming trunk within his hands,
> thus boldly up and spake,
> "I see," quoth he,
> "the elephant is very like a snake."
> 
> The fourth reached out an eager hand,
> and felt above the knee,
> "What this most wondrous beast
> is like is very plain" said he,
> "'Tis clear enough the elephant
> is very like a tree."
> 
> The fifth who chanced to touch the ear
> said, "E'en the blindest man
> Can tell what this resembles most;
> deny the fact who can;
> This marvel of an elephant
> is very like a fan."
> 
> The sixth no sooner had begun
> about the beast to grope,
> Than seizing on the swinging tail
> that fell within his scope;
> "I see," said he, "the elephant
> is very like a rope."
> 
> So six blind men of Hindustan
> disputed loud and long,
> Each in his own opinion
> exceeding stiff and strong;
> Though each was partly in the right,
> they all were in the wrong!
> 
> So, oft in theologic wars
> The disputants, I ween,
> Rail on in utter ignorance
> Of what each other mean,
> _And prate about an Elephant
> Not one of them has seen!_
> 
> _John Godrey Saxe_


Very good. People see things differently. That's why I didn't claim to be right, but asked what your view was; precisely in order to get a different opinion to consider.

So why do you think that the disintegration of the EU is good for the world's future?


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Very good. People see things differently. That's why I didn't claim to be right, but asked what your view was; precisely in order to get a different opinion to consider.
> 
> So why do you think that the disintegration of the EU is good for the world's future?


Because I passionately believe in free trade and violently, rabidly loathe and detest bureaucracy. Further down this rathole I will not be tempted because I have been there before and seen the quality of response that ensues, and all about a beast not one of us has seen.

(Eta: Wow. Page 500.)


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Because I passionately believe in free trade and violently, rabidly loathe and detest bureaucracy. Further down this rathole I will not be tempted because I have been there before and seen the quality of response that ensues, and all about a beast not one of us has seen.
> 
> (Eta: Wow. Page 500.)


Well I apologise on behalf of all of us low quality posters.

Let's hope that the UK can replicate the EU's 50 free trade deals and that our bonfire of red tape and regulations won't impact on anything important, in the unlikely event that it happens. A shame that leaving the single market and customs union will inevitably reduce free trade and increase bureaucracy, but them's the breaks.


----------



## Elles

Isn't the USA building a wall to block illegal immigration from Mexico and refusing entry to people from specific Muslim countries the same as the Eu? Russia isn't exactly an open border either. Nor is Europe.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/10/06-launch-ebcg-agency/

Free movement isn't free movement, just because it covers a larger area, nor is free trade.

It probably depends on how you view the Eu. A power for good, or just a power.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Brexit on its own doesn't. The complete destruction of the EU would imo. That is what I voted for and I believe it is inevitable, if not in my lifetime maybe. I shall be proud to have been part of knocking the first nail into the coffin if/when it does. I take global multi-generational view.


At the moment EU seems fine, UK does not, but fall of EU benefits just Middle East and Far East plus Russia.
So if you consider their position on animal rights, human right and environment , how it is going to benefit the world?
From the beginning of this thread I was warning about the global effects of Brexit, not only how it will damage UK and Gibraltar.

That is why voted Leave.
I have no illusions as to Merkel, Juncker and all the lot.

Yet from the moment go I was sure Brexit will not deliver, people would be really angry with Tories and pendulum will swing to the far left, with even more disastrous effects...

No need for Blair to state the obvious.

I never felt you really bat for Britain .


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Because I passionately believe in free trade


As an aside, it seems odd to me that you want to leave, and see the demise of, the world's largest and freest trade area - the EU single market - because you passionately believe in free trade.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Free movement isn't free movement, just because it covers a larger area, nor is free trade.


You just have to look at poor Italy to know there's no free movement and no care about individual members.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> You just have to look at poor Italy to know there's no free movement and no care about individual members.


So tell me how does leaving help anyone? How does countries looking out only for themselves pretending they are better than others help? Of course EU putting 35million into Italy's coffers isn't going to help at all, nor are any of the other things going on to assist, far better to just leave them to it. You want to change something, you change it from within not stick your head in the sand.

What I've noticed is the change here by many.. we've had the pretend reasoning about making anything better. Now we are down to remainers are only looking for themselves and the UK is going to be worse off. It's not simply about finance, it's about attitudes and acceptance. It's about community and being greater together.

At least rona has been consistent (EU is only corrupt, cannot do any good) although nobody is explaining how leaving will help anything.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> You just have to look at poor Italy to know there's no free movement and no care about individual members.


I think the EU 'freedom of movement' refers to EU citizens rather than migrants and refugees from outside the EU, doesn't it?

Or are you saying that Italians aren't allowed to move freely within the EU?


----------



## kimthecat

This thread is 500 pages long ! :Woot


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> This thread is 500 pages long ! :Woot


500 to go...


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> 500 to go...


500- in a year 2 years to go I reckon thats, 1500 pages minimum


----------



## Arnie83

As the topic with the greatest influence on the UK's prosperity and position in the world for the next few decades, it would be disappointing if the thread died through apathy.


----------



## kimthecat

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...en-uks-booming-financial-sector-a3588911.html

France is plotting to exploit Brexit in a bid to weaken London's booming financial sector, a senior City of London spokesman has claimed in a leaked memo.

Former Home Office minister Jeremy Browne, who acts as the City of London's envoy on Brexit, said the French see the British as "adversaries" in the forthcoming negotiations over quitting the EU.

In the memo, which was seen to the Mail on Sunday, Mr Browne said the French are open about their desire to disrupt and degrade the UK's financial sector.

He said his talks in Paris have been "the worst I have had anywhere in the EU".

Mr Browne, who met banking chiefs, senior politicians and diplomats, wrote: "They are crystal clear about their underlying objective: the weakening of Britain, the ongoing degradation of the City of London.


----------



## Zaros

Common English mistakes.

They're instead of their.

An apostrophe to indicate a plural 

Leaving the EU.


Carry on folks...


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> http://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...en-uks-booming-financial-sector-a3588911.html
> 
> France is plotting to exploit Brexit in a bid to weaken London's booming financial sector, a senior City of London spokesman has claimed in a leaked memo.
> 
> Former Home Office minister Jeremy Browne, who acts as the City of London's envoy on Brexit, said the French see the British as "adversaries" in the forthcoming negotiations over quitting the EU.
> 
> In the memo, which was seen to the Mail on Sunday, Mr Browne said the French are open about their desire to disrupt and degrade the UK's financial sector.
> 
> He said his talks in Paris have been "the worst I have had anywhere in the EU".
> 
> Mr Browne, who met banking chiefs, senior politicians and diplomats, wrote: "They are crystal clear about their underlying objective: the weakening of Britain, the ongoing degradation of the City of London.


Well, duh.

What do people expect them to do? In the world of financial business of course we are competing with Paris and Dublin and Frankfurt, and we have been for decades. The newspapers try to spin it as the evil Europeans trying to destroy the noble British, but come on! Brexit is an opportunity. London will try to increase its business, as will every other city in Europe and, for that matter, the rest of the world.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Well, duh.
> What do people expect them to do? In the world of financial business of course we are competing with Paris and Dublin and Frankfurt, and we have been for decades. The newspapers try to spin it as the evil Europeans trying to destroy the noble British, but come on! Brexit is an opportunity. London will try to increase its business, as will every other city in Europe and, for that matter, the rest of the world.


Don't shoot the messenger , I just post stuff I see , I didn't make any comment . Not much point in posting press stuff, then !


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Don't shoot the messenger , I just post stuff I see , I didn't make any comment . Not much point in posting press stuff, then !


No offence intended; I was taking aim at the press report, not your good self.


----------



## Arnie83

One of May's hard Brexit red lines is that we won't recognise any rulings of the European Court of Justice as binding on the UK.

This excellent and simple explanation of the ECJ and its function make clear that if we stick to that red line, we can't trade with the EU. At all.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40630322


----------



## Elles

I agree with the article, in that some people have confused it with the Strasbourg court, but for that we can blame the press. In reality it makes little to no difference to the average brexiters who just want to leave the Eu and don't care about the single market, or trade deals, nor want to pay towards buildings and judges in Europe. That people want laws to be Uk laws, doesn't mean they want lawlessness with citizens having no rights at all, which seems to be implied sometimes. 

Of course if we want to sell to other countries, we'll have to abide by their rules when we do, just as other countries selling to us, have to abide by our standards. Countries like China, America, India, Australia still trade, they aren't part of the single market either. Andorra which has French and spanish borders has a separate arrangement.

Why would the Uk want to give European citizens more rights than other world citizens once we leave the Eu? I thought Brexiters didn't want to? People already here maybe, but after that the same rights and obligations for all?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> This excellent and simple explanation of the ECJ and its function make clear that if we stick to that red line, *we can't trade with the EU. At all.*


Wrong.

We will still be trading with the EU even if there is a no deal situation as we are members of and have always been members of the WTO (world trade organisation). The negotiations only determine how we leave the EU, with or without a departure deal and later on in the negotiations if we continue with a free trade deal or a new free trade deal or if the UK have to pay under WTO rules. We will continue trading with the EU regardless. We won't suddenly stop trading with the EU. Part of leaving the EU is to not be governed by ECJ rules and be Independent from these rules and laws which will be initially be transferred into UK statute so nothing changes after we leave the EU.

Wow over 500 pages.


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat said:


> Wrong.
> 
> We will still be trading with the EU even if there is a no deal situation as we are members of and have always been members of the WTO (world trade organisation). The negotiations only determine how we leave the EU, with or without a departure deal and later on in the negotiations if we continue with a free trade deal or a new free trade deal or if the UK have to pay under WTO rules. We will continue trading with the EU regardless. We won't suddenly stop trading with the EU. Part of leaving the EU is to not be governed by ECJ rules and be Independent from these rules and laws which will be initially be transferred into UK statute so nothing changes after we leave the EU.
> 
> Wow over 500 pages.


Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> *Wrong.*
> 
> We will still be trading with the EU even if there is a no deal situation as we are members of and have always been members of the WTO (world trade organisation). The negotiations only determine how we leave the EU, with or without a departure deal and later on in the negotiations if we continue with a free trade deal or a new free trade deal or if the UK have to pay under WTO rules. We will continue trading with the EU regardless. We won't suddenly stop trading with the EU. Part of leaving the EU is to not be governed by ECJ rules and be Independent from these rules and laws which will be initially be transferred into UK statute so nothing changes after we leave the EU.
> 
> Wow over 500 pages.


You sound very certain about that.

But if we don't accept ECJ jurisdiction at all then we don't meet the rules of the single market and we won't be allowed to sell goods into the EU whether as WTO members or not. As it says in the article I quoted:

"*any company from the US or Japan or anywhere else that wants to sell its product in the European single market has to comply with all EU regulations, and with all ECJ rulings about any of those regulations. If foreign companies don't comply, they can't operate in the EU.*"​
Ergo, we have to soften our red line, and our Brexit, and bow to the jurisdiction of the ECJ if we want to trade in the EU.

So the word you're looking for is '*Right*'.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner!


I don't think this is really a competition between posters, but rather a discussion which, where possible, presents facts and corrects errors. Please see my post above.

But just for you I'll add another quote from the article ...

*"So foreign companies can't escape the jurisdiction of the ECJ?*

*Not if they want to operate in the single market, no."*​


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think this is really a competition between posters, but rather a discussion which, where possible, presents facts and corrects errors. Please see my post above.
> 
> But just for you I'll add another quote from the article ...
> 
> *"So foreign companies can't escape the jurisdiction of the ECJ?*
> 
> *Not if they want to operate in the single market, no."*​


Guess again.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Guess again.


Sorry, I don't understand that. I'm not aware that I have been guessing. I merely seek and state facts. Perhaps you could elucidate.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, I don't understand that. I'm not aware that I have been guessing. I merely seek and state facts. Perhaps you could elucidate.


Well I was merely congratulating my esteemed fellow member on making the 10,000th contribution to this thread; just spreading a little lighthearted goodwill as is my way. Then you come along all pugilistic, railing about competitiveness between posters. Lighten up man, it is only a pet forum.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> You sound very certain about that.
> 
> But if we don't accept ECJ jurisdiction at all then we don't meet the rules of the single market and we won't be allowed to sell goods into the EU whether as WTO members or not. As it says in the article I quoted:
> 
> "*any company from the US or Japan or anywhere else that wants to sell its product in the European single market has to comply with all EU regulations, and with all ECJ rulings about any of those regulations. If foreign companies don't comply, they can't operate in the EU.*"​
> Ergo, we have to soften our red line, and our Brexit, and bow to the jurisdiction of the ECJ if we want to trade in the EU.
> 
> So the word you're looking for is '*Right*'.


I think the article is slightly misleading as Korea trade with the EU so do Pakistan, India, Australia, New Zealand, China, Malaysia, Canada etc and they aren't under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and are not members of the EU. They have negotiated agreements to trade with the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Well I was merely congratulating my esteemed fellow member on making the 10,000th contribution to this thread; just spreading a little lighthearted goodwill as is my way. Then you come along all pugilistic, railing about competitiveness between posters. Lighten up man, it is only a pet forum.


I knew you was congesting me for the 10,000th post   Thank you 

This thread is getting to serious for my liking. I'll climb back in my box and be quiet :Muted


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I think the article is slightly misleading as Korea trade with the EU so do Pakistan, India, Australia, New Zealand, China, Malaysia, Canada etc and they aren't under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and are not members of the EU. They have negotiated agreements to trade with the EU.


Indeed, lots of nations trade with the EU, and so will we so long as we accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the single market. The point I was making - or rather the article was making - was that currently May is saying that as part of her 'hard Brexit' we won't do that, so I hope she changes her stance!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Indeed, lots of nations trade with the EU, and so will we so long as we accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the single market. The point I was making - or rather the article was making - was that currently May is saying that as part of her 'hard Brexit' we won't do that, so I hope she changes her stance!


I understand what you're saying but we don't need to be in the single market to trade with the EU or accept ECJ rules, the countries I listed aren't in the single market and trade with the EU and only accept partial ECJ laws and rules. If you believe they do accept all ECJ rules prove it. They have individually negotiated a deal with the EU (all deals are different). A news article is a reporters point of view which can be wrong.

There's something called WTO rules which enables countries to trade with each other at fixed tarrifs which the UK is a founding member of and is still a member of so we can fall back on these rules if no deal is struck with the EU. So it is nonescene to say we won't be trading with the EU at all because we will be one way or another. A free trade deal is what is wanted but the UK may not get it with the EU as it depends on the other 27 other EU member countries if we get a free trade deal or not but they cannot stop the UK trading under WTO rules as they don't have control over these rules. The EU persay is not a member of the WTO but every country in Europe is.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I understand what you're saying but we don't need to be in the single market to trade with the EU or accept ECJ rules, the countries I listed aren't in the single market and trade with the EU and only accept partial ECJ laws and rules. If you believe they do accept all ECJ rules prove it. They have individually negotiated a deal with the EU (all deals are different). A news article is a reporters point of view which can be wrong.


No you don't have to be in the single market to trade with the EU.

You do, though, have to accept the regulations of the single market to trade with it, and those are under the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

I don't think you have to accept all ECJ rules; only those relating to the single market if you want to sell goods within it.

I didn't realise that the article was in any way controversial or complicated, so I'll leave it at that I think.


----------



## 1290423

Just for the record......

Im STILL out​


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Just for the record......
> 
> Im STILL out​


Many people have shown they prefer to be lied to than admit they were wrong. Shame the country will suffer for it.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Many people have shown they prefer to be lied to than admit they were wrong. Shame the country will suffer for it.


Why ever would we want to admit we were wrong?
Maybe we prefer out to in irrespective of the cost!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Many people have shown they prefer to be lied to than admit they were wrong. Shame the country will suffer for it.


Who says vote leavers are wrong?
I would still vote leave if given another opportunity.

All I want is for the Government to get on with what the majority voted for on 23rd June 2016. They have had over a year to get themselves ready after all for the negotiations. Lets see how the second round of negotiations go this week, we'll all know on Thursday when Michel Barnier and David Davis give their opinions to the news.

So what do we know so far? The UK is willing to allow EU citizens to stay in the UK if they have been here for 5+ years and they can apply for UK citizenship if they have been here for 5+ years and can prove it (this was the way it was when I lived in Holland, I had to prove I lived there continuously). Michel Barnier said UK Citizens living in the EU cannot have more rights than EU citizens living in the UK, which is fair enough isn't it? This was the conclusion that was drawn from last months meeting. This will be interesting how this pans out in this months meeting.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Who says vote leavers are wrong?


You could start with facts. Then there's the way your tone has changed from "the benefits" which have been disproven to we will not be worse off and even there it's providing...



> I would still vote leave if given another opportunity.


I know.. that's the tragedy when you cannot explain using facts any benefits of doing so whilst losing many advantages not just economic ones.



> So what do we know so far? The UK is willing to allow EU citizens to stay in the UK if they have been here for 5+ years and they can apply for UK citizenship if they have been here for 5+ years and can prove it (this was the way it was when I lived in Holland, I had to prove I lived there continuously). Michel Barnier said UK Citizens living in the EU cannot have more rights than EU citizens living in the UK, which is fair enough isn't it? This was the conclusion that was drawn from last months meeting. This will be interesting how this pans out in this months meeting.


UK citizens living in the EU have rights which are protected. The offer on the table from May is less than those rights and is less than what was promised by the leave campaign (what a shock) and does not protect EU immigrants to the UK. As for how it will pan out, yes it will be interesting considering the UK negotiators seem to have prepared nothing in detail.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> UK citizens living in the EU have rights which are protected. The offer on the table from May is less than those rights and is less than what was promised by the leave campaign (what a shock) and does not protect EU immigrants to the UK.


That's funny because Michel Barnier said that UK citizens cannot have more rights than EU citizens living in the UK after Brexit last week.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Then there's the way your tone has changed


My tone hasn't changed. I said I was voting leave and I did and still will given the opportunity again.


----------



## Goblin

Which is why the UK will need to change it's stance before other things are negotiated... when is the UK leaving again? Just what does no deal entail and who can provide details on why it is good?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Which is why the UK will need to change it's stance before other things are negotiated...


And if the UK doesn't change its stance? It is a red line after all.


> when is the UK leaving again?


The UK is leaving on or before the 29th March 2019.


> Just what does no deal entail


No deal results in the UK still trading with the EU under something called WTO rules not under EU rules, Gibraltar remains a UK terroritory, the UK leaves the EU and don't have to pay the huge amount of money they keep adding to it, the ECJ no longer have jurisdiction over the UK, the UK will not longer be a member of the single market or common market, and the UK is free to trade with who it wishes to trade with. UK citizens will have to get a visa to go to countries in the EU jurisdiction like any other country has to outside of the EU and vise versa for EU citizens coming to the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Brexit: Liam Fox says talks on a UK-US trade deal will begin on 24 July 2017*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...deal-liam-fox-uk-us-24-july-a7815751.html?amp

British negotiators will begin talks with the US on a post-Brexit trade deal on 24 July, Liam Fox has revealed.

EU rules prohibit member states from making separate trade deals with countries outside the bloc.

But the Secretary of State for International Trade has repeatedly insisted there is nothing to stop the British Government "scoping out" how a future relationship with America might look.

Speaking on BBC One's _Question Time_, Mr Fox said talks with his US counterparts would begin next month as he seeks to make new trade deals with "very, very big markets" outside Europe.

The former defence secretary was confronted by a fellow panel member about the risk that US negotiators may not be willing to strike a deal unless the UK agrees to less stringent food safety standards.

Concerns have been raised that British supermarkets could be flooded with chlorine-washed chicken, hormone-treated beef and pork laced with a controversial drug that is banned in more than 150 countries as part of a post-Brexit trade deal with the US.

Mr Fox avoided responding directly to that charge, but said: "We are not rejecting Europe, we want an open and liberal trading arrangement with Europe.

"But there are some very, very big markets out there that we will be able to take advantage of.

"And as for [the claim that] the US will not talk to us, I've got news for you, we are beginning our actual discussions on the 24 July."


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> No deal results in the UK still trading with the EU under something called WTO rules not under EU rules, Gibraltar remains a UK terroritory, the UK leaves the EU and don't have to pay the huge amount of money they keep adding to it, the ECJ no longer have jurisdiction over the UK, the UK will not longer be a member of the single market or common market, and the UK is free to trade with who it wishes to trade with. UK citizens will have to get a visa to go to countries in the EU jurisdiction like any other country has to outside of the EU and vise versa for EU citizens coming to the UK.


So tell me, what are the rules of WTO rather than a simple slogan to make it sound good? Extra red tape, extra costs. Hard border in Northern Island. Air space issues... Banking and the city... Euratom... It's not simply about trading.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> *Brexit: Liam Fox says talks on a UK-US trade deal will begin on 24 July 2017*
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-trade-deal-liam-fox-uk-us-24-july-a7815751.html?amp
> 
> British negotiators will begin talks with the US on a post-Brexit trade deal on 24 July, Liam Fox has revealed.
> 
> EU rules prohibit member states from making separate trade deals with countries outside the bloc.
> 
> But the Secretary of State for International Trade has repeatedly insisted there is nothing to stop the British Government "scoping out" how a future relationship with America might look.
> 
> Speaking on BBC One's _Question Time_, Mr Fox said talks with his US counterparts would begin next month as he seeks to make new trade deals with "very, very big markets" outside Europe.
> 
> The former defence secretary was confronted by a fellow panel member about the risk that US negotiators may not be willing to strike a deal unless the UK agrees to less stringent food safety standards.
> 
> Concerns have been raised that British supermarkets could be flooded with chlorine-washed chicken, hormone-treated beef and pork laced with a controversial drug that is banned in more than 150 countries as part of a post-Brexit trade deal with the US.
> 
> Mr Fox avoided responding directly to that charge, but said: "We are not rejecting Europe, we want an open and liberal trading arrangement with Europe.
> 
> "But there are some very, very big markets out there that we will be able to take advantage of.
> 
> "And as for [the claim that] the US will not talk to us, I've got news for you, we are beginning our actual discussions on the 24 July."


Except that the claim was 'clarified' by Fox's department the next morning ...

But this morning, the DIT admitted the *talks would not be formal free trade negotiations*. Instead, the meeting will mark the formation of a "US/UK Working Group" - effectively a group to plan the negotiations, which can't start until after Brexit .

A spokesperson said: "The Department for International Trade is launching a trade 'working group' to strengthen the bilateral trade and investment relationship with the US, with an initial meeting set for July.

"The early discussions will focus on providing commercial continuity for US and UK businesses as the UK leaves the EU and exploring possible ways to strengthen trade and commercial ties immediately, consistent with the EU's common commercial policy."​
Fox was getting a little overexcited.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Except that the claim was 'clarified' by Fox's department the next morning ...
> 
> But this morning, the DIT admitted the *talks would not be formal free trade negotiations*. Instead, the meeting will mark the formation of a "US/UK Working Group" - effectively a group to plan the negotiations, which can't start until after Brexit .
> 
> A spokesperson said: "The Department for International Trade is launching a trade 'working group' to strengthen the bilateral trade and investment relationship with the US, with an initial meeting set for July.
> 
> "The early discussions will focus on providing commercial continuity for US and UK businesses as the UK leaves the EU and exploring possible ways to strengthen trade and commercial ties immediately, consistent with the EU's common commercial policy."​
> Fox was getting a little overexcited.


I know it will be a working group, we have one with Australia (since October 2016) at the moment and the talks seem to be going well with that one. We'll have a working group in Pakistan, Korea etc as well soon one would assume as they are also a potential trading partners after we Brexit.

Bloomberg leaked this report as well about trade talks with the UK-US starting on 24th July 2017.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So tell me, what are the rules of WTO


We have already been through this WTO saga before so please excuse me for saying "*I am not repeating myself*" as it gets rather repetitive going around in circles. If you have forgotten and are so worried about it look it up for yourself and research WTO rules


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> My tone hasn't changed. I said I was voting leave and I did and still will given the opportunity again.


Wouldn't worry about it stockwell!
Have you not noticed a pattern
Think we can discuss it until the cows come home ,some people will always tell us we were either lied to brainwashed uneducated you name it they just keep rolling it out!

Think im gonna ask one of these geniuses for the winning euro lottery numbers for the draw in june 2027. as they seem to be able to see that far ahead like


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> *I know it will be a working group*, we have one with Australia (since October 2016) at the moment and the talks seem to be going well with that one. We'll have a working group in Pakistan, Korea etc as well soon one would assume as they are also a potential trading partners after we Brexit.
> 
> Bloomberg leaked this report as well about trade talks with the UK-US starting on 24th July 2017.


Well that puts you one up on Liam Fox then!

We can, and do, talk to anyone we like. Beginning the detailed negotiations for a trade deal, though, we can't do until the end of March 2019. Don't hold your breath.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Juncker and Barnier etc. are in a pickle aren't they?

Be nice to us, allow us to flourish outside the EU, and maybe many others will want to leave. Punish us and our economy and they'll be hurting their own economies.

Wonder which foot they decide to shoot?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> We have already been through this WTO saga before so please excuse me for saying "I am not repeating myself" as it gets rather repetitive going around in circles. *If you have forgotten and are so worried about it look it up for yourself and research WTO rules*


We have. That's _WHY_ we're worried...


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> Juncker and Barnier etc. are in a pickle aren't they?
> 
> Be nice to us, allow us to flourish outside the EU, and maybe many others will want to leave. Punish us and our economy and they'll be hurting their own economies.
> 
> Wonder which foot they decide to shoot?


German businesses have already stated they are prepared to take the short term hit for long term gain. Unfortunately Brexit is not a short or long term gain.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> We have already been through this WTO saga before so please excuse me for saying "*I am not repeating myself*" as it gets rather repetitive going around in circles. If you have forgotten and are so worried about it look it up for yourself and research WTO rules


Yes we have and reality shows it's bad as an option so unless you can come up with reasons why you are pushing it as an acceptable option...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yes we have and reality shows it's bad as an option so unless you can come up with reasons why you are pushing it as an acceptable option...


Ahh but it's not up to me is it to push anything. It is the Government or rather the Exiting the EU department of the Government that are negotiating Brexit not you or me or anyone else. We voted as the United Kingdom to leave the EU and now it is up to the Government to deliver this one way or the other.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> We have. That's _WHY_ we're worried...


Well do your own research as I am not going over old ground repeating myself


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat said:


> Well do your own research as I am not going over old ground repeating myself


We have. That's _WHY_ we're worried...


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> *Brexit: Liam Fox says talks on a UK-US trade deal will begin on 24 July 2017*
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-trade-deal-liam-fox-uk-us-24-july-a7815751.html?amp
> 
> British negotiators will begin talks with the US on a post-Brexit trade deal on 24 July, Liam Fox has revealed.
> 
> EU rules prohibit member states from making separate trade deals with countries outside the bloc.
> 
> But the Secretary of State for International Trade has repeatedly insisted there is nothing to stop the British Government "scoping out" how a future relationship with America might look.
> 
> Speaking on BBC One's _Question Time_, Mr Fox said talks with his US counterparts would begin next month as he seeks to make new trade deals with "very, very big markets" outside Europe.
> 
> The former defence secretary was confronted by a fellow panel member about the risk that US negotiators may not be willing to strike a deal unless the UK agrees to less stringent food safety standards.
> 
> Concerns have been raised that British supermarkets could be flooded with chlorine-washed chicken, hormone-treated beef and pork laced with a controversial drug that is banned in more than 150 countries as part of a post-Brexit trade deal with the US.
> 
> Mr Fox avoided responding directly to that charge, but said: "We are not rejecting Europe, we want an open and liberal trading arrangement with Europe.
> 
> "But there are some very, very big markets out there that we will be able to take advantage of.
> 
> "And as for [the claim that] the US will not talk to us, I've got news for you, we are beginning our actual discussions on the 24 July."


Its just more nonsense from the disgraced former defence secretary 

*Tom Newton Dunn*‏Verified [email protected]*tnewtondunn* Jul 16

Liam Fox concedes there will be no free trade deals ready to be signed the moment UK leaves EU, as he's not allowed to negotiate.

'


----------



## Elles

Everyone knows that newspapers are inaccurate, exaggerate and underplay depending on their agenda, take things out of context and misquote. There's a difference between having a chat and scoping out and arranging trade deals. We might end up with a single market deal with the Eu that means we aren't allowed to deal with anywhere else. Otoh no harm in talking. If we know that there will be no deal with the USA or that we'd have to lower our standards to get one, it might make it more important to get a good deal with the Eu for example. Every little helps.


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> Juncker and Barnier etc. are in a pickle aren't they?
> 
> Be nice to us, allow us to flourish outside the EU, and maybe many others will want to leave. Punish us and our economy and they'll be hurting their own economies.
> 
> Wonder which foot they decide to shoot?


The latter of your options is what will happen, as made very clear by practically everyone of any influence in the EU for several months

The odd thing is that some people still entertain the notion that it is some sort of 'punishment'.

We have chosen to leave the EU. We have always known - in fact May, Davis & co. have made abundantly clear - that this includes leaving the single market and the customs union. We are insisting on giving up the benefits of those structures which come with membership of the EU. And you suggest that they are punishing us?

"I left the RAC last year, and they are punishing me by no longer offering roadside assistance!"

"I left the gym, and they have chosen to punish me by saying I can't use their facilities any more!"


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> No offence intended; I was taking aim at the press report, not your good self.


Thx , Yeah i know .  I thought I'd edited that first sentence out .


----------



## samuelsmiles

Arnie83 said:


> The latter of your options is what will happen, as made very clear by practically everyone of any influence in the EU for several months
> 
> The odd thing is that some people still entertain the notion that it is some sort of 'punishment'.
> 
> We have chosen to leave the EU. We have always known - in fact May, Davis & co. have made abundantly clear - that this includes leaving the single market and the customs union. We are insisting on giving up the benefits of those structures which come with membership of the EU. And you suggest that they are punishing us?
> 
> "I left the RAC last year, and they are punishing me by no longer offering roadside assistance!"
> 
> "I left the gym, and they have chosen to punish me by saying I can't use their facilities any more!"


However, I have always used the AA. A Far superior service, in my opinion.

I also like to get my exercise without the need to waste my money at overpriced gyms.


----------



## noushka05

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

It seems on another thread I was told not to mention the B word ..
Or .what actually? Report me to the MODs?
Funny, that it was done by Leaver...
So not that enthusiastic, are they now?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> It seems on another thread I was told not to mention the B word ..
> Or .what actually? Report me to the MODs?
> Funny, that it was done by Leaver...
> So not that enthusiastic, are they now?


Very enthusiastic actually but just sick of reading about it in nearly every thread in General Chat. The thread in question had nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Very enthusiastic actually but just sick of reading about it in nearly every thread in General Chat. The thread in question had nothing to do with Brexit.


Really?
Been posting tongue in cheek, but , yes, young people didn't turn up en masse in referendum, so maybe tried to make up for it in election?
Anyhow students voted for Corbyn, so why are you so worried?
As to validity? What happened to grew many postal votes in referendum that did not teach expats in time etc.?
People are not logical. Not my fault either.
Many threads like pension age rise have to do with big black hole in our economy dear , very dear Brexit is creating.
Do you think not saying will not make it happen?

Take it that I have crystal ball and tell you that as Brexit goes on damaging our economy the government, left or right, would grab your private pension and take a good bite...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Really?
> Been posting tongue in cheek, but , yes, young people didn't turn up en masse in referendum, so maybe tried to make up for it in election?
> People are not logical. Not my fault either.
> Many threads like pension age rise have to do with big black hole in our economy dear , very dear Brexit is creating.
> Do you think not saying will not make it happen?


I am not engaging in a debate.

You have your opinion I have mine.

Let's see what happens as the negotiations have only just begun.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I am not engaging in a debate.
> 
> You have your opinion I have mine.
> 
> Let's see what happens as the negotiations have only just begun.


Lets not debate. Lets bet! In greenbacks.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I am not engaging in a debate.
> 
> You have your opinion I have mine.
> 
> Let's see what happens as the negotiations have only just begun.


This is what happens in opinion of The Markets








This is the reaction to negotiations so far.
According to experts " no deal " Brexit will cost about 3.6 to 6% of our GDP. Imagine the cuts!!!
That without Divorce Bill counted in.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ould-lose-right-to-live-in-another-eu-country


----------



## Goblin

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ould-lose-right-to-live-in-another-eu-country


Not sure how that would work but then have never checked what "rights" non-eu nationals have. If they change nationality to a european country then obviously this doesn't apply. If not it's surely to be expected.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> It seems on another thread I was told not to mention the B word ..
> Or .what actually? Report me to the MODs?
> Funny, that it was done by Leaver...
> So not that enthusiastic, are they now?


 When someones desperate to shut you down its usually because they have lost the debate. And the leavers have definitely lost the brexit debate. Its a complete & utter disaster already.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> When someones desperate to shut you down its usually because they have lost the debate. And the leavers have definitely lost the brexit debate. Its a complete & utter disaster already.


As experts predicted it would be...
But " who needs experts"?
EU obviously.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> When someones desperate to shut you down its usually because they have lost the debate. And the leavers have definitely lost the brexit debate. Its a complete & utter disaster already.


Well I think it is all going rather well. Does that mean I won the debate?


----------



## Elles

Well I'm confused, I can't see this disaster. It doesn't seem to have affected anyone I know. Theresa May has gone walking though. So anything could happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> When someones desperate to shut you down its usually because they have lost the debate. And the leavers have definitely lost the brexit debate. Its a complete & utter disaster already.


I think Brexit is on course and going well. Definitely not a disaster.

I didn't shout anyone down I was simply saying that the thread in question was nothing to do with Brexit and a few sly Brexit digs where being made and didn't see why Brexit has to be mentioned in that particular thread.

Anyway...

Roll on Brexit. I am definitely feeling enthusiastic about Brexit happening @cheekyscrip and @noushka05 

It's not a disaster simply because we haven't found common ground yet with Michel Barnier and the EU hasn't found common ground with the UK. It will happen, but the negotiations have only just started. Give everyone a chance around the negotiating table.

Regarding my private pension @cheekyscrip of course the Government take their share, only the first 25% is tax free. I am fully aware that the remainder is taxable so they do take a good bite out of it. Nothing I can do about that. But that isn't a reflection on Brexit, Brexit did not cause this to happen, it is the terms of my private pension so Brexit isn't to blame for my private pension being taxable. Still means I can retire early though (58) and get my state pension 10 years later.


----------



## Elles

https://www.unlimited.world/unlimited/this-is-the-most-dangerous-time-for-our-planet

A reluctantly optimistic view on Brexit by Stephen Hawking who of course was a remainer. Will the elite listen?


----------



## Elles

2023 being suggested as free movement cut off point. Sticking point still ECJ, Britain wants an independent ombudsman to work with Eu and Brit reps instead, Eu says no. Britain wants to be able to do criminal checks, Eu says not unless criminal activity suspected. Gibraltar not yet discussed. Divorce bill being discussed. Seems Brexit is as well as can be expected. Not quite the disaster yet.


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> It seems on another thread *I was told not to mention the B word ..*
> Or .what actually? Report me to the MODs?
> Funny, that it was done by Leaver...
> So not that enthusiastic, are they now?


Try_ 'wrecks it' _Scrippy.

It sounds very much like Brexit..

And probably means the same thing.


----------



## KittenKong

Shocking. Just when some hardened Brexiteers accuse remainers of putting their country down for not coming to the Brexit way of thinking, not forgetting to stand toe to toe with Theresa May for Britain this is damn right hypocritical!

Taking a 3-week holiday in Europe when she should lead by example by taking a holiday in Britain!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Shocking. Just when some hardened Brexiteers accuse remainers of putting their country down for not coming to the Brexit way of thinking, not forgetting to stand toe to toe with Theresa May for Britain this is damn right hypocritical!
> 
> Taking a 3-week holiday in Europe when she should lead by example by taking a holiday in Britain!!!
> View attachment 318369


If I can get rid of this cough I have I'll be off to Europe for my second round of holidays this year. I must be a hypocrite as well then 

I wouldn't think May is a hypocrite as she voted remain. She agreed to honour the outcome of the referendum, to right she should as well.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> If I can get rid of this cough I have I'll be off to Europe for my second round of holidays this year. I must be a hypocrite as well then
> 
> I wouldn't think May is a hypocrite as she voted remain. She agreed to honour the outcome of the referendum, to right she should as well.


For the place on the chair...I call it convictions for sale...
Opportunist.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> I think Brexit is on course and going well. Definitely not a disaster.
> 
> I didn't shout anyone down I was simply saying that the thread in question was nothing to do with Brexit and a few sly Brexit digs where being made and didn't see why Brexit has to be mentioned in that particular thread.
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> Roll on Brexit. I am definitely feeling enthusiastic about Brexit happening @cheekyscrip and @noushka05
> 
> It's not a disaster simply because we haven't found common ground yet with Michel Barnier and the EU hasn't found common ground with the UK. It will happen, but the negotiations have only just started. Give everyone a chance around the negotiating table.
> 
> Regarding my private pension @cheekyscrip of course the Government take their share, only the first 25% is tax free. I am fully aware that the remainder is taxable so they do take a good bite out of it. Nothing I can do about that. But that isn't a reflection on Brexit, Brexit did not cause this to happen, it is the terms of my private pension so Brexit isn't to blame for my private pension being taxable. Still means I can retire early though (58) and get my state pension 10 years later.


It may change and current taxes will rise. The flexi access might change and will.
By the time you are eligible to take your pension.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Well I think it is all going rather well. Does that mean I won the debate?


Well obviously I wasn't referring to you This is going perfectly for people who dream of a low tax, low regulation, laissez faire economy. A Randian corporate dystopia will be a disaster for most people though. (& the environment, which will affect even the wealthiest eventually)

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> _*It may change *_and current taxes will rise. The flexi access *might change* and will.
> By the time you are eligible to take your pension.


And I *may* win the lottery but can keep dreaming


----------



## noushka05

Please read this from Barnier.

We CAN have a trade deal with the EU if we don't burn red tape on jobs, safety, the environment, tax. We can't have both..

What will the tories will decide?


----------



## noushka05

Is this how the rest of Europe sees us now?


----------



## Zaros

[


noushka05 said:


> Is this how the rest of Europe sees us now?
> 
> View attachment 318372


It's not visually correct, Noush'

Take away the pot(ty) because I really don't think they have one to pi55 in.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Is this how the rest of Europe sees us now?
> 
> View attachment 318372


I don't think so, noushka. It's how you _want _the rest of Europe to see us now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

We are turning into a big joke, no real idea of where we are going or what we want. A Banana Republic comes to mind.


----------



## DoodlesRule

cheekyscrip said:


> Really?
> Been posting tongue in cheek, but , yes, young people didn't turn up en masse in referendum, so maybe tried to make up for it in election?
> Anyhow students voted for Corbyn, so why are you so worried?
> As to validity? What happened to grew many postal votes in referendum that did not teach expats in time etc.?
> People are not logical. Not my fault either.
> *Many threads like pension age rise have to do with big black hole in our economy dear , very dear Brexit is creating.*
> Do you think not saying will not make it happen?
> 
> Take it that I have crystal ball and tell you that as Brexit goes on damaging our economy the government, left or right, would grab your private pension and take a good bite...


Cheeky the rise in state pension ages was introduced in the Pensions Act *1995* ie 22 years ago, how is that down to Brexit then?!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Is this how the rest of Europe sees us now?


It's certainly how I see us.

The cabinet are still arguing the toss about whether to go for a soft or hard Brexit, and it's just as well there are other issues for the negotiators to be getting on with.

Once we factor in the large play-pen that is the House of Commons, the chances of getting an agreed deal by autumn 2018 are remote indeed.


----------



## Goblin

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21725314-long-government-stays-denial-about-brexits-drawbacks-country-course?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/britainfacesuptobrexit

When will the UK government actually prepare the UK for the future? As we can see from this thread people don't understand simple things like the WTO option.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21725314-long-government-stays-denial-about-brexits-drawbacks-country-course?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/britainfacesuptobrexit
> 
> When will the UK government actually prepare the UK for the future? As we can see from this thread people don't understand simple things like the WTO option.


I have apparently reached my article limit. 

Shows what publications I use as a crib sheet!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21725314-long-government-stays-denial-about-brexits-drawbacks-country-course?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/britainfacesuptobrexit
> 
> When will the UK government actually prepare the UK for the future? As we can see from this thread people don't understand simple things like the WTO option.


I understand fully what WTO is it's World Trade Organisation and fully understand what the WTO option is. Many other countries trade under WTO which the UK is a full member of but because we are full members of the EU at the moment cannot trade or use WTO rules as we aren't allowed to trade outside of the EU at the moment. I suggest instead of people explaining it repeatedly that others do their research because you are only going to keep asking the same questions over and over again every couple of days, weeks or months even when you have had the answer. Perhaps if you take the time to research things you won't ask the same questions on repeat.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I understand fully what WTO is it's World Trade Organisation and fully understand what the WTO option is.


You know what it is, you don't seem to recognise what it means. So tell me what it actually means for business and imports, the positives and negatives...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You know what it is, you don't seem to recognise what it means. So tell me what it actually means for business and imports, the positives and negatives...


So why do I have to explain myself on a public forum when *you* can quite simply do the research yourself and find the answers for yourself instead of asking people over and over again to explain themselves? Find out yourself. I fully understand what it entails using WTO rules and how it affects everything but don't need to explain it on here.

I am not being vague and just because I refuse to answer your questions doesn't mean I don't know the answers to your questions because I do. It doesn't matter what I say because in a few days, weeks or months you'll be asking the same questions again hoping for a different answer. Some people (like me) have moved on and are getting on with life and not worrying about Brexit as it is happening. Everyone is just going to have to be patient and see what happens and what is agreed to.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> So why do I have to explain myself on a public forum when *you* can quite simply do the research yourself and find the answers for yourself instead of asking people over and over again to explain themselves? Find out yourself.


As I expected.. evasion rather than facts and knowledge. So why not look at the reality as explained by leavers who actually bother to inform themselves (posted before but obviously ignored):

http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128


----------



## Dr Pepper

Who gives a monkey's about WTO at the moment? Today it's has no consequence, nor will it tomorrow. Should 2019 get here with no trade deal within the EU then talk about the pro's and con's. I'm pretty sure Mr Davies and the EU are well aware of the WTO and NEITHER side would prefer it to a more beneficial deal. 

Personally I think all this speculation and continuation of project fear is pointless now. Negotiations are taking place, deals will (or won't) be struck. Let's wait and see what happens over the coming months and comment on the facts as they arise.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Today it's has no consequence, nor will it tomorrow.


If people are pushing it as an option, it is of consequence. Should people simply accept what the government bumble through with or should people be stating their expectations. Wasn't brexit about "take back control". How can you do that if you don't have the facts and are not prepared to use them when you do?


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> I don't think so, noushka. It's how you _want _the rest of Europe to see us now.


Needs no help from Noush nor me!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> As I expected.. evasion rather than facts and knowledge. So why not look at the reality as explained by leavers who actually bother to inform themselves (posted before but obviously ignored):
> 
> http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128


I am not being evasive. We don't know yet how we will be trading with the EU. Believe it or not we are negotiating at the moment so no agreements have been made. We are still full members of the EU so are entitled to trade with the EU as before the EU Referendum under the agreements we currently have with the EU. Nothing in this respect has changed yet.

Why on earth are you worrying about WTO rules when we are trading with the EU as full EU members at the moment?

We may well get a trade deal with the EU yet, no one knows because the UK has only just opened negotiations with the EU on leaving the EU. Let the professionals sort out this in Brussels.

We have to wait and see what is offered and what deal is agreed to.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Another part of Project Fear....







becomes reality.
Do you actually understand how much revenue will be lost - but gained by EU?
Jobs....then secondary effects etc....


----------



## Elles

I expect Europeans who had to relocate to London for work will be very pleased. It could be fantastic news for people who may be able to go home, instead of living in concrete blocks in London.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> Another part of Project Fear....
> View attachment 318390
> becomes reality.
> Do you actually understand how much revenue will be lost - but gained by EU?
> Jobs....then secondary effects etc....


Phew, I always thought a exodus meant the great many or vast percentage. So far not so bad is it.

And anyway there's bound to losses in some areas and gains in others, I don't think anyone ever thought otherwise. You just need to look at the whole picture as it reveals itself if the coming months and years. Exciting times.


----------



## Elles

Companies relocate to India for cheap labour all the time. Spreading a workforce across Europe and enabling Europeans is far better than cramming people into Indian call centres, or squashing them in London tower blocks.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Who gives a monkey's about WTO at the moment? Today it's has no consequence, nor will it tomorrow. Should 2019 get here with no trade deal within the EU then talk about the pro's and con's. I'm pretty sure Mr Davies and the EU are well aware of the WTO and NEITHER side would prefer it to a more beneficial deal.
> 
> Personally I think all this speculation and continuation of project fear is pointless now. Negotiations are taking place, deals will (or won't) be struck. Let's wait and see what happens over the coming months and comment on the facts as they arise.


If we are prepared to walk away from negotiations and trade under WTO rules - i.e. 'no deal is better than a bad deal' - then we need to know what they are in order to recognise when we are approaching the 'bad deal' tipping-point. Otherwise, we are negotiating blind.


----------



## Arnie83

I've seen a lot of stories of jobs leaving the UK because of Brexit.

I've seen some stories of jobs and investment staying in the UK despite Brexit,

But I've yet to see any stories of jobs coming to the UK _because_ of Brexit.

Can anyone find any?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> If we are prepared to walk away from negotiations and trade under WTO rules - i.e. 'no deal is better than a bad deal' - then we need to know what they are in order to recognise when we are approaching the 'bad deal' tipping-point. Otherwise, we are negotiating blind.


I think you'll find Mr Davies and his team know exactly what WTO rules mean. So no-one is negotiating blind. The general bod on the street doesn't need to know, you don't need to know. But it's easy enough for anyone to find out should they wish.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I've seen a lot of stories of jobs leaving the UK because of Brexit.
> 
> I've seen some stories of jobs and investment staying in the UK despite Brexit,
> 
> But I've yet to see any stories of jobs coming to the UK _because_ of Brexit.
> 
> Can anyone find any?


I'll let you know in 2020 when Brexit is done and dusted and businesses know how the land lies. The very vast majority of businesses, 99% or more, won't commit one way or other at this point, how could they?


----------



## Elles

Who are we? Whoever is negotiating might need to know. 

We sell quite a bit abroad as well as the uk. It has been mainly Australia, though America is doing quite well at the moment because of the exchange rate. If the US sales continue to increase, we will take someone else on, if that's any help? It depends on how it goes, but I expect exporters who export outside of the EU may find their market share increasing and may need to take on more people, which will help keep us afloat with the weaker pound. We are slowly diversifying into new technology too, which has been quite exciting for us. We're a very small company though, not some massive financial institution. 

If holidays in Europe cost more, it might be worth saving and doing an expensive trip somewhere else instead. Maybe have 4 holidays in the uk, then one in the us or Egypt, rather than going to Spain every year. We might go to Gib again this year to visit my son and his wife, have to see how it goes.

I'm not an economist, but if you believe what we read on the net, economists aren't much better than fortune tellers anyway.


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Who are we? Whoever is negotiating might need to know.
> 
> We sell quite a bit abroad as well as the uk. It has been mainly Australia, though America is doing quite well at the moment because of the exchange rate. If the US sales continue to increase, we will take someone else on, if that's any help? It depends on how it goes, but I expect exporters who export outside of the EU may find their market share increasing and may need to take on more people, which will help keep us afloat with the weaker pound. We are slowly diversifying into new technology too, which has been quite exciting for us. We're a very small company though, not some massive financial institution.
> 
> If holidays in Europe cost more, it might be worth saving and doing an expensive trip somewhere else instead. Maybe have 4 holidays in the uk, then one in the us or Egypt, rather than going to Spain every year. We might go to Gib again this year to visit my son and his wife, have to see how it goes.
> 
> I'm not an economist, but if you believe what we read on the net, economists aren't much better than fortune tellers anyway.


The difference is : Predicted outcome of Brexit put pound about 15% lower....
So what economists in the world think actually has dire effects on our economy.
This is how experts see our economy and this is how they priced it.

We may not agree but that means nothing.

France is lowering taxes for banks and businesses.

Those of Leavers who have pensions already or soon to come are fine.
Those who are professionals with no family to support will manage.
But for those who have children born pre- referendum things are pretty gloom.
Food and clothes prices are up. 
Many families will struggle, forget the holidays .. Struggle to keep afloat.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> Those of Leavers who have pensions already or soon to come are fine.
> Those who are professionals with no family to support will manage.
> But for those who have children born pre- referendum things are pretty gloom.
> Food and clothes prices are up.
> Many families will struggle, forget the holidays .. Struggle to keep afloat.


Again good news. The majority are ok. Families always have a struggle, our first mortgage was when interest rates were 15%, that takes a hell of a lot more of your money than inflation being a % or two higher than wage rises.

We forgot holidays for a good few years, then it was caravanning holidays in the UK until the kids were well in their teens. Nothing wrong if you don't have a holiday, hardly an essential.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> I think you'll find Mr Davies and his team know exactly what WTO rules mean. So no-one is negotiating blind. The general bod on the street doesn't need to know, you don't need to know. But it's easy enough for anyone to find out should they wish.





Dr Pepper said:


> I'll let you know in 2020 when Brexit is done and dusted and businesses know how the land lies. The very vast majority of businesses, 99% or more, won't commit one way or other at this point, how could they?


So your advice regarding the most important topic for the next few decades is to wait until it's all been sorted out and see how it went. I think I want to be rather more informed prior to the event if you don't mind.

And I have no faith in Mr Davis (no 'e') knowing much about anything when it comes to the actual detail. At the time of the referendum, and for some time after it, he didn't even know that we couldn't negotiate new trade deals until we left the EU.


----------



## Elles

Food prices had dropped a fair bit in the uk, due to Aldi and Lidl being able to provide cheaper food than British supermarkets seemed to manage and the following price war between the supermarkets. Food prices have gone back up again a little, but globally. It's not due to Brexit, or the weaker pound. It's a global trend.

Clothes prices in the uk haven't particularly increased, I believe.

If working families are struggling, the elite need to pay better wages and not be so greedy for themselves and their shareholders. When wealthy Saudis own large areas of farming and other governments own our railways, they aren't keen to put anything back. Jeremy talked a bit of sense imo. I may not think he's right with his answers, but the issues he highlighted were often real enough and weren't being solved inside the Eu.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> So your advice regarding the most important topic for the next few decades is to wait until it's all been sorted out and see how it went. I think I want to be rather more informed prior to the event if you don't mind.
> 
> And I have no faith in Mr Davis (no 'e') knowing much about anything when it comes to the actual detail. At the time of the referendum, and for some time after it, he didn't even know that we couldn't negotiate new trade deals until we left the EU.


Agreed. Fortunately Mr Davis isn't on his own. I think he knew we couldn't sign new deals until we left though. He was talking about testing the water and discussing, not actually arranging anything.


----------



## Arnie83

I keep getting drawn into discussions of what is likely to happen in financial terms post Brexit, and I should stop more often and remind myself that it really doesn't matter.

Yes, from an economic point of view it isn't going to be good, and will be anything from mildly bad to very bad, but it doesn't matter.

Many people, including most of the Tory Brexiteer Cabinet, voted to leave the EU just so we could leave the EU. The costs to the country and its people don't matter. The only important thing is that we'll have left the EU. Woo hoo. Go, us.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Agreed. Fortunately Mr Davis isn't on his own. I think he knew we couldn't sign new deals until we left though. He was talking about testing the water and discussing, not actually arranging anything.


You'd like to think so, wouldn't you ...

David Davis July 13th 2016

_"First of all, leaving the EU gives us back control of our trade policy... We can do deals with our trading partners, and we can do them quickly. I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners. I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months"_

Whereas in fact the negotiation stage won't even have begun until 2019 at the earliest.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> You know what it is, you don't seem to recognise what it means. So tell me what it actually means for business and imports, the positives and negatives...


Dunno for sure, but is it something like this?

Many many years ago when I started my own business I didn't initially register for VAT so when I used to import from either Germany or say the Netherlands which I did regular although I didn't have to pay import duty I did have to pay VAT but VAT at the rate that the country from which I was buying from, not our rate here in the uk. I didn't have to pay any import obviously. As my turnover grew which obviously it did I had to register for VAT. At the same time I started importing from many other countries not in the eu,
The USA for example I would go to trade fairs there twice a year I had freight forwarders who had offices in both coasts of the of the USA depending whether we were flying in or coming by Sea yes it did use to take longer and there was more paperwork everything we imported had a tariff, we could easily find these ourselves and in our instances these ranged between one and a half and 5% any import duty we had to pay immediately the goods landed in the UK as we did the VAT the VAT was relatively easy we would claim it back that quarter on a C79, yes it take longer and yes there was more paperwork so we did need a,healthy cash flow ,but in the same vein our profit was all so much higher then anything we purchased from the EU due to us being able to negotiate volume prices etc. I had to keep on my toes and Plan ahead but for me it was great. And once we started importing from countries not in the eu we did much much better.
I have I add since sold that business so assume things may have altered.
Is this what you are meaning??
Note this is a,genuine question , to what from me was a genuine reply, for once.


----------



## Elles

To be fair, he talked a lot of bull before article 50 and the recent election. His talking about negotiations and preparing for new trade deals was minor in comparison to a lot of what he is alleged to have said. 

I say allegedly only because I wasn't there and didn't hear him and I haven't watched him on YouTube, not because I don't believe it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> Again good news. The majority are ok. Families always have a struggle, our first mortgage was when interest rates were 15%, that takes a hell of a lot more of your money than inflation being a % or two higher than wage rises.
> 
> We forgot holidays for a good few years, then it was caravanning holidays in the UK until the kids were well in their teens. Nothing wrong if you don't have a holiday, hardly an essential.


Why though should we all be poorer?
To have the likes of May / Gove/ Johnson to #take control?
I rather spend it on my family.
I rather keep my job. Thanks to Brexit directly regulations changed and I am out.
Before referendum was offered full time in a year and eventually step up.
Now we are closing and our mother company is shifting business to Malta.
The same goes for many others.
Channel Islands are for hard times too.


----------



## Elles

I'm sorry your company is relocating and you are losing your job. 

If you work for one of the big online gambling companies, I thought they were still waiting to see what happens with Gib? Gibraltar hasn't been discussed yet. A lot of Spanish commuters work in the gaming industry in Gibraltar too.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I keep getting drawn into discussions of what is likely to happen in financial terms post Brexit, and I should stop more often and remind myself that it really doesn't matter.
> 
> Yes, from an economic point of view it isn't going to be good, and will be anything from mildly bad to very bad, but it doesn't matter.
> 
> Many people, including most of the Tory Brexiteer Cabinet, voted to leave the EU just so we could leave the EU. The costs to the country and its people don't matter. The only important thing is that we'll have left the EU. Woo hoo. Go, us.


I knew you would understand eventually.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> So your advice regarding the most important topic for the next few decades is to wait until it's all been sorted out and see how it went. I think I want to be rather more informed prior to the event if you don't mind.


What do want to be informed about today then? WTO? Plenty of info out there so you can prepare should that be the case as I'm sure most businesses that may be effected have already checked it out. Beyond that there is nothing more to be informed about until the deals being done (or not) have been announced. Unfortunately now it really is just a matter of letting the very recently elected government get on with it.

I presume you have a business in import/export that relies heavily on EU trade (going by your grave concern and prediction of doom!). If you are so concerned about WTO regulations you have two years to plan for that eventuality, everyone else will be doing just that. So whilst not ideal it's also not insurmountable.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> What do want to be informed about today then? WTO? Plenty of info out there so you can prepare should that be the case as I'm sure most businesses that may be effected have already checked it out. Beyond that there is nothing more to be informed about until the deals being done (or not) have been announced. Unfortunately now it really is just a matter of letting the very recently elected government get on with it.
> 
> I presume you have a business in import/export that relies heavily on EU trade (going by your grave concern and prediction of doom!). If you are so concerned about WTO regulations you have two years to plan for that eventuality, everyone else will be doing just that. So whilst not ideal it's also not insurmountable.


I have no business. Just a degree in economics.

I want to be informed about the direction of government thinking so that I can take an active part in encouraging or trying to change it.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> I knew you would understand eventually.


Trust me, I understand, and have done ever since 52% of Britons chose to look backwards rather than forwards.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Trust me, I understand, and have done ever since 52% of Britons chose to look backwards rather than forwards.


or maybe they chose another direction ,

Why is staying in the EU considered looking forward ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Trust me, I understand, and have done ever since 52% of Britons chose to look backwards rather than forwards.


Well this member of the 52% is looking in one direction and it isn't backwards


----------



## stockwellcat.

...


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I have no business. Just a degree in economics.
> 
> I want to be informed about the direction of government thinking so that I can take an active part in encouraging or trying to change it.


Ok forget your economics degree (no offence but it's pretty meaningless in the business world) and any fantasy about how you can take a active part in changing things at this stage. You can't. You can go and have a protest as deals are struck (or not), but that's about it. You've been given two votes now that could influence Brexit so it'll be very doubtful you'll get another.

Instead do what businesses are doing, preparing for a multitude of outcomes and looking forwards positive in the knowledge they will survive and thrive whatever the outcome, because they have prepared rather than just moan about how bad it'll all be. So prepare yourself and wait and see, and then respond as and when we know what's been negotiated.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> or maybe they chose another direction ,
> 
> Why is staying in the EU considered looking forward ?


Because if there is to be a future for the human race it is going to require us to come together and blur national borders rather than reverting to the small insular bickering tribes which have caused so much conflict in the past.

The EU could have been part of that. With luck it still will be, leaving the disunited Kingdom to lose prosperity, influence and relevance in tomorrow's world.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Ok forget your economics degree (no offence but it's pretty meaningless in the business world) and any fantasy about how you can take a active part in changing things at this stage. You can't. You can go and have a protest as deals are stuck (or not), but that's about it. You've been given two votes now that could influence Brexit so it'll be very doubtful you'll get another.
> 
> Instead do what businesses are doing, preparing for a multitude of outcomes and looking forwards positive in the knowledge they will survive and thrive whatever the outcome, because they have prepared rather than just moan about how bad it'll all be. So prepare yourself and wait and see, and then respond as and when we know what's been negotiated.


My economics qualification merely allows me to understand the likely financial outcome of Brexit, including what the WTO is all about.

If enough people change their mind about the advantages of leaving the EU, then eventually even the Tories will have to listen. However small my contribution may be I will continue to point out the disadvantages of Brexit to the people of this country in the hope of boosting those numbers.

I realise that will not matter to those who wish to leave for purely tribal reasons, but I don't think for a moment they were ever in the majority.

I don't need to make any preparations for Brexit, as financially it won't affect me much one way or the other, bar an increase in food prices. And I always have the option of emigration if I feel my world-citizen outlook is so out of kilter with the national mood as to make life here intellectually unpleasant.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> . And I always have the option of emigration if I feel my world-citizen outlook is so out of kilter with the national mood as to make life here intellectually unpleasant.


And there we have it, he has a degree so if things don't go his way it's because we are intellectually incompatible. As an employee I'll bet the original MD or CEO of your employer (that chap/chapess that pays your wages) didn't have a degree, very few do. But hey, you have a degree, however out of date.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Because if there is to be a future for the human race it is going to require us to come together and blur national borders rather than reverting to the small insular bickering tribes which have caused so much conflict in the past.
> 
> The EU could have been part of that. With luck it still will be, leaving the disunited Kingdom to lose prosperity, influence and relevance in tomorrow's world.


The UK leaving the Eu isn't going to make much difference to world peace or the EU. For all you know the Eu could in the future wield too much power and contribute to conflict . 
We're part of a Commonwealth and we're part of Nato so we're not _that _ insular .


----------



## Elles

Talking of clothes prices. The school uniforms from Lidl are ridiculous. I paid 10x those prices when my children were young. Where do they get the stuff from?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Talking of clothes prices. The school uniforms from Lidl are ridiculous. I paid 10x those prices when my children were young. Where do they get the stuff from?


We have no Lidl. But M&S and Debenhams. Sadistic prices.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> And there we have it, he has a degree so if things don't go his way it's because we are intellectually incompatible. As an employee I'll bet the original MD or CEO of your employer (that chap/chapess that pays your wages) didn't have a degree, very few do. But hey, you have a degree, however out of date.


Funny... The top of my company , UK based , till my very own boss do not seems very happy about B.


----------



## Elles

£3.75 for 2 polo shirts, a skirt or trousers and a sweatshirt.  In my day you'd be lucky to get a pair of socks for that. :Hilarious

Lidl is German I believe.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny... The top of my company , UK based , till my very own boss do not seems very happy about B.


We'll he/she isn't UK based and probably more worried about Gibraltar than the UK. Understandably.


----------



## noushka05

The UK has the slowest performing advanced economy on planet earth ! 'Strong & Stable??

How bad does it have to get before people face reality?

.

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> We'll he/she isn't UK based and probably more worried about Gibraltar than the UK. Understandably.


Mother company is UK based. Branches all over the world.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Ok forget your economics degree (no offence but it's pretty meaningless in the business world) and any fantasy about how you can take a active part in changing things at this stage. You can't. You can go and have a protest as deals are struck (or not), but that's about it. You've been given two votes now that could influence Brexit so it'll be very doubtful you'll get another.
> 
> Instead do what businesses are doing, preparing for a multitude of outcomes and looking forwards positive in the knowledge they will survive and thrive whatever the outcome, because they have prepared rather than just moan about how bad it'll all be. So prepare yourself and wait and see, and then respond as and when we know what's been negotiated.


Reality check. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-20/firms-facing-cliff-edge-pressure-may-on-brexit-transition-deal?utm_content=brexit&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid==socialflow-facebook-brexit

*Firms Facing 'Cliff-Edge' Pressure May on Brexit Transition Deal *(see link for full article)

British businesses stepped up pressure on Prime Minister Theresa May to prioritize a transition agreement with the European Union, warning that firms face a "cliff-edge" when the two-year deadline for Brexit talks expires*.*

European Union negotiator Michel Barnier gave no ground in the second round of Brexit talks that concluded Thursday, and told the U.K. to come back next month with more detail. *Britain still risks crashing out of the trading bloc in 2019 with no deal, an outcome academics warned would lead to "economic disaster" and legal limbo*.

U.K. nuclear plants may be unable to operate and British airlines unable to fly to and from the continent, the research program U.K. in A Changing Europe said Thursday in a study.

"Economic growth is slowing, with Brexit-related uncertainty part of the story," Martin at the BCC said. "A domestic agenda that puts the economy and business growth front and center remains absolutely critical."


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Reality check. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-20/firms-facing-cliff-edge-pressure-may-on-brexit-transition-deal?utm_content=brexit&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid==socialflow-facebook-brexit
> 
> *Firms Facing 'Cliff-Edge' Pressure May on Brexit Transition Deal *(see link for full article)
> 
> British businesses stepped up pressure on Prime Minister Theresa May to prioritize a transition agreement with the European Union, warning that firms face a "cliff-edge" when the two-year deadline for Brexit talks expires*.*
> 
> European Union negotiator Michel Barnier gave no ground in the second round of Brexit talks that concluded Thursday, and told the U.K. to come back next month with more detail. *Britain still risks crashing out of the trading bloc in 2019 with no deal, an outcome academics warned would lead to "economic disaster" and legal limbo*.
> 
> U.K. nuclear plants may be unable to operate and British airlines unable to fly to and from the continent, the research program U.K. in A Changing Europe said Thursday in a study.
> 
> "Economic growth is slowing, with Brexit-related uncertainty part of the story," Martin at the BCC said. "A domestic agenda that puts the economy and business growth front and center remains absolutely critical."


I see the presses project fear campaign is in full swing. I notice the Gaurdian is siding with the remain supporters as well and in full swing with doom and gloom reporting and forecasting. The ironic thing is no one knows what will happen until 2019 or what the deal will look like until 14 months time (October 2018). What I am saying is it is all speculation and painting a picture of something that may never happen, feeding the remainers fears and causing division in the UK and businesses in the City of London to panic.

Let the professionals get on with negotiating a deal in Brussels and work on getting a deal because at the moment there are only negotiations going on and no deals have been agreed on yet. We are still full members of the EU and are still trading with them, nothing has changed in this respect yet.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I want to be informed about the direction of government thinking so that I can take an active part in encouraging or trying to change it.


.... by complaining on a pet forum.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> My economics qualification merely allows me to understand the likely financial outcome of Brexit, including what the WTO is all about.
> 
> If enough people change their mind about the advantages of leaving the EU, then eventually even the Tories will have to listen. However small my contribution may be I will continue to point out the disadvantages of Brexit to the people of this country in the hope of boosting those numbers.
> 
> I realise that will not matter to those who wish to leave for purely tribal reasons, but I don't think for a moment they were ever in the majority.
> 
> I don't need to make any preparations for Brexit, as financially it won't affect me much one way or the other, bar an increase in food prices. And I always have the option of emigration if I feel my world-citizen outlook is so out of kilter with the national mood as to make life here intellectually unpleasant.


Leave it out with the tribal angle, wanting independence has nothing to do with being triable.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> And there we have it, he has a degree so if things don't go his way it's because we are intellectually incompatible. As an employee I'll bet the original MD or CEO of your employer (that chap/chapess that pays your wages) didn't have a degree, very few do. But hey, you have a degree, however out of date.


Tautologically, if more people disagree with me than agree with me it must be because we think differently, if that is what you mean by intellectual incompatibility.

There is no link that I can see to the possession or otherwise of a degree, which I only mentioned in response to your suggestion that I research the WTO, since that was something I did during my days at uni.

Unless by linking the two, and then denigrating the degree per se, you are implying that I think people who disagree with me are intellectually inferior? If that is so, then I'm afraid you are very wide of the mark indeed. I see no correlation between comparative intelligence and agreement or otherwise with my point of view.

I simply don't feel a sense of belonging in a country where the majority have such a tribal outlook.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> The UK leaving the Eu isn't going to make much difference to world peace or the EU. For all you know the Eu could in the future wield too much power and contribute to conflict .
> We're part of a Commonwealth and we're part of Nato so we're not _that _ insular .


I hope that is the case, and am encouraged that Brexit seems to have brought the rest of the EU closer together rather than boosting other right wing populist movements with an overdeveloped sense of nation.

We are indeed part of the Commonwealth. I wonder how many see us as the first among equals in that organisation, and prefer it to the EU for that very reason.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> Mother company is UK based. Branches all over the world.


So what are their concerns then? A global company with branches all over the world shouldn't be having major issues with Brexit. I'm sure they have all bases covered whatever the outcome.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> .... by complaining on a pet forum.


In very small part, but far from entirely. What an odd assumption.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Leave it out with the tribal angle, wanting independence has nothing to do with being triable.


Really?

It has absolutely everything to do with being tribal. What do you think a 'country' is?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Really?
> 
> It has absolutely everything to do with being tribal. What do you think a 'country' is?


A country? Well the UK is a very diverse country with vast mix of ethnicities and their religions. We send billions of pounds in aid to other countries. With Brexit approaching trade deals with the EU are to be negotiated, as will trade deals with the rest of world. We are members of NATO and the cooperation with other countries that brings. Likewise with the Commonwealth. We are members of the European space agency and international space station. Some twelve million of us travel abroad every year.

So tell me, why do you think we are triable? I can see no evidence.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> So what are their concerns then? A global company with branches all over the world shouldn't be having major issues with Brexit. I'm sure they have all bases covered whatever the outcome.


They are concerned for their clients?
British clients.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> They are concerned for their clients?
> British clients.


I thought they were a online gambling business?

What are their concerns then?


----------



## Elles

Wow. This thread reminds me of the millennium bug.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> A country? Well the UK is a very diverse country with vast mix of ethnicities and their religions. We send billions of pounds in aid to other countries. With Brexit approaching trade deals with the EU are to be negotiated, as will trade deals with the rest of world. We are members of NATO and the cooperation with other countries that brings. Likewise with the Commonwealth. We are members of the European space agency and international space station. Some twelve million of us travel abroad every year.
> 
> So tell me, why do you think we are triable? *I can see no evidence*.


Every country is tribal. Humans are tribal, and have been since we came down from the trees.

We form communities. In the early days the tribesmen acted together to stop other tribes taking their land / food, because otherwise they would have died. The tribes who did that best were the ones who thrived, and from whom we are all descended.

Ever since, throughout history, we have formed tribes, some through physical proximity, some through recent ancestry, some through a shared belief system. We like belonging, and we have retained the distrust / suspicion / dislike for those who are outside our tribe. The Other.

Fans of X United 'hate' the fans of Y Rovers. The gangs of London or Manchester. England. Islam. Our town.

We sing national anthems to pledge our allegiance to an area of the planet which is bound only by imaginary lines that we have drawn on paper and which we can erase just as easily. But while they are there they represent our nation, and we are proud of everything achieved by people we've never met let alone influenced, but who happened to be born within those imaginary boundaries. Because we are part of the same tribe.

We support a political party and rubbish the others not because we agree wholeheartedly with everything our party says, but because they are our party.

We even support Europe in the Ryder Cup against America.

Everywhere you look, there are tribes. Countries are bigger than most, and smaller than some.

Wars are always between tribes of one form or another, be it country v country, aristocracy v commoners, gang A v gang B. It's tribe v tribe, just as it was when our whole species was confined to Africa, and when the Other tribe was something to be feared / distrusted / seen off.

The EU has been painted as the evil outsiders for as long as I can remember, playing deliberately on our not-so-latent tribalism. 'They' are telling us what to do and we don't like it. How dare they make laws that bind us! Of course, we can't actually name one that affects us personally in a bad way, but it's the principle of the thing. We're British, and Brussels isn't! Migrants are taking our jobs, or living off our benefits, or, bizarrely, both at the same time. Never mind the economic benefits, they are not us. They don't _belong_ here.

Our heritage is being attacked! Our culture is being eradicated! Nonsense, of course, because our heritage is immutable and our culture is ever changing. But our tribe is threatened by outsiders.

And as for the foreign aid budget; slash it! Charity begins at home! We should give the money to someone I've never met 300 miles away who can only afford the most basic Sky subscription, not to someone I've never met 5,000 miles away who is on the verge of starvation. It's _our_ money, and our tribe should benefit from it.

I just think that **** sapiens are our tribe; that we no longer need to follow some evolutionary imperative to distrust the Other, to protect what we've got against all-comers. No, I don't want a socialist or communist paradise, but I want to see the boundaries between us blurred rather than reinforced.

I think it is time we used our intellect to recognise and challenge our instincts, to see them for what they are and to ask if there is a better way.

Brexit, for me, is not a step forward to a better, untried future, but a step backwards to a primitive past.

Apologies for the length of rant.


----------



## Elles

There were peaceful tribes who lived in harmony with their environment. Often wiped out by empires.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> A country? Well the UK is a very diverse country with vast mix of ethnicities and their religions. We send billions of pounds in aid to other countries...


.....Which is why many voted leave with the EU being made a scapegoat....


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> .....Which is why many voted leave with the EU being made a scapegoat....


True. Right choice, wrong reasons.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Because if there is to be a future for the human race it is going to require us to come together and blur national borders rather than reverting to the small insular bickering tribes which have caused so much conflict in the past.





> We are indeed part of the Commonwealth. I wonder how many see us as the first among equals in that organisation, and prefer it to the EU for that very reason.


 The fact is we are a member of an organisation that has 53 member which reaches far more diverse countries than the EU, 
in this instance I don't think how some individuals in this country see us matter . 
There are flash points all over the world and we need to have as many diplomatic , economic etc ties as possible so with the EU and the Commonwealth that's a wide range of countries so I think that bodes well.

With Nuclear weapons , we can't put the genie back in the bottle , in these modern times perhaps the small bickering tribes aren't the danger. The danger is Dictators like Kim Jong Un and countries like Iran who according to recent German intelligence are still going ahead with their WMD programme 

Strangely the odd relationship (friendship?)between Trump and Putin might benefit world peace ( unless Trump is a Russian sleeper).

*Member countries*

Fifty two countries are members of the Commonwealth. Our countries span Africa, Asia, the Americas, Europe and the Pacific and are diverse - they are amongst the world's largest, smallest, richest and poorest countries. Thirty-one of our members are classified as small states - countries with a population size of 1.5 million people or less and larger member states that share similar characteristics with them.

All members subscribe to the Commonwealth's values and principles outlined in The Commonwealth Charter.

Leaders of member countries shape Commonwealth policies and priorities. Every two years, they meet to discuss issues affecting the Commonwealth and the wider world at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM).

All members have an equal say - regardless of size or economic stature. This ensures even the smallest member countries have a voice in shaping the Commonwealth.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> There were peaceful tribes who lived in harmony with their environment. Often wiped out by empires.


Indeed, which more or less proves the point that we haven't grown out of it.

The EU, of course, is not an empire that has acquired its size and influence through conquest, unlike, say, the British Empire.

Of course, a whole different discussion point is whether capitalist economic power can be seen as an equivalent to the military powers of yesteryear. But all the more reason why we in the first world should wake up to how we behave with respect to our cousins in what we call other countries.


----------



## Elles

It is called the European Union. Though I suppose if Australia, or Canada wants to join it can always change its name. 

Is one country, or groups of countries imposing austerity (or sanctions) on another the modern version of a siege?


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> The fact is we are a member of an organisation that has 53 member which reaches far more diverse countries than the EU,
> in this instance I don't think how some individuals in this country see us matter .
> There are flash points all over the world and we need to have as many diplomatic , economic etc ties as possible so with the EU and the Commonwealth that's a wide range of countries so I think that bodes well.
> 
> With Nuclear weapons , we can't put the genie back in the bottle , in these modern times perhaps the small bickering tribes aren't the danger. The danger is Dictators like Kim Jong Un and countries like Iran who according to recent German intelligence are still going ahead with their WMD programme
> 
> Strangely the odd relationship (friendship?)between Trump and Putin might benefit world peace ( unless Trump is a Russian sleeper).
> 
> *Member countries*
> 
> Fifty two countries are members of the Commonwealth. Our countries span Africa, Asia, the Americas, Europe and the Pacific and are diverse - they are amongst the world's largest, smallest, richest and poorest countries. Thirty-one of our members are classified as small states - countries with a population size of 1.5 million people or less and larger member states that share similar characteristics with them.
> 
> All members subscribe to the Commonwealth's values and principles outlined in The Commonwealth Charter.
> 
> Leaders of member countries shape Commonwealth policies and priorities. Every two years, they meet to discuss issues affecting the Commonwealth and the wider world at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM).
> 
> All members have an equal say - regardless of size or economic stature. This ensures even the smallest member countries have a voice in shaping the Commonwealth.


I like the Commonwealth very much, and ideally there should be more organisations like it. I think the association is sufficiently loose, though, that no-one sees it as a threat to our independence. And I do also think that many British people would see our country as the de facto leader of the group - seeing that the Queen is head of the Commonwealth - and therefore take a national (tribal) pride in it.

The EU, for me, is an example where interdependence is required, and it is that closer association which makes so many feel uncomfortable. That is what we have to overcome going forwards.

But no argument from me that the Commonwealth is a good thing.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> The EU, of course, is not an empire that has acquired its size and influence through conquest, unlike, say, the British Empire.
> 
> Of course, a whole different discussion point is whether capitalist economic power can be seen as an equivalent to the military powers of yesteryear. But all the more reason why we in the first world should wake up to how we behave with respect to our cousins in what we call other countries.


Im not sure of your point , you've been saying the Eu is a good thing but now its the economical equivalent of the British Empire and they and the rest in the first world aren't respecting other countries who arent Eu and first world ?

First world ? Really about time they dropped that term suggesting we are first and better than others . not very PC 

ETA . Just a point , despite the UK being "tribal" it's never stopped us caring or helping other people in other countries .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> I thought they were a online gambling business?
> 
> What are their concerns then?


You were thinking wrongly. Again.
Sorry to spoil your Sunday lunch....


----------



## Elles

That's probably my fault. I asked if it was, as 888 has been saying that if it all goes wrong, they might have to move to Malta.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Im not sure of your point , you've been saying the Eu is a good thing but now its the economical equivalent of the British Empire and they and the rest in the first world aren't respecting other countries who arent Eu and first world ?
> 
> First world ? Really about time they dropped that term suggesting we are first and better than others . not very PC
> 
> ETA . Just a point , despite the UK being "tribal" it's never stopped us caring or helping other people in other countries .


The bottom line is that I think associations of countries are good things, and the closer they are associated the better. The willingness to pool decisions making and to extend binding democracy across national boundaries is, for me, a template for the future.

In a forum like this, though, it's impossible to go into lots of detail. I don't think the EU is anything like the finished article or that it doesn't have considerable faults. I was musing whether economics replaces strength of arms in part because the West (not just the EU) seeks to dominate markets and exploit those who are economically weaker. It's been going on since for centuries; perhaps most obviously at the height of the slave trade. It is something that, over time, has to change for the good of us all.

Having said that, you are quite right, of course, that we do care for and help people in other countries. There is an oxymoronic altruistic streak in us warring, tribal humans but I think it is still very much focused on helping 'our own' first. Hence the foreign aid complaints in the likes of the abhorrent Daily Heil comments section.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> You were thinking wrongly. Again.
> Sorry to spoil your Sunday lunch....


Apologies, I blame @Elles  Not sure where I got that thought from then 

One thing I do know though is being Saturday today my Sunday lunch will be just fine


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Every country is tribal. Humans are tribal, and have been since we came down from the trees.
> 
> We form communities. In the early days the tribesmen acted together to stop other tribes taking their land / food, because otherwise they would have died. The tribes who did that best were the ones who thrived, and from whom we are all descended.
> 
> Ever since, throughout history, we have formed tribes, some through physical proximity, some through recent ancestry, some through a shared belief system. We like belonging, and we have retained the distrust / suspicion / dislike for those who are outside our tribe. The Other.
> 
> Fans of X United 'hate' the fans of Y Rovers. The gangs of London or Manchester. England. Islam. Our town.
> 
> We sing national anthems to pledge our allegiance to an area of the planet which is bound only by imaginary lines that we have drawn on paper and which we can erase just as easily. But while they are there they represent our nation, and we are proud of everything achieved by people we've never met let alone influenced, but who happened to be born within those imaginary boundaries. Because we are part of the same tribe.
> 
> We support a political party and rubbish the others not because we agree wholeheartedly with everything our party says, but because they are our party.
> 
> We even support Europe in the Ryder Cup against America.
> 
> Everywhere you look, there are tribes. Countries are bigger than most, and smaller than some.
> 
> Wars are always between tribes of one form or another, be it country v country, aristocracy v commoners, gang A v gang B. It's tribe v tribe, just as it was when our whole species was confined to Africa, and when the Other tribe was something to be feared / distrusted / seen off.
> 
> The EU has been painted as the evil outsiders for as long as I can remember, playing deliberately on our not-so-latent tribalism. 'They' are telling us what to do and we don't like it. How dare they make laws that bind us! Of course, we can't actually name one that affects us personally in a bad way, but it's the principle of the thing. We're British, and Brussels isn't! Migrants are taking our jobs, or living off our benefits, or, bizarrely, both at the same time. Never mind the economic benefits, they are not us. They don't _belong_ here.
> 
> Our heritage is being attacked! Our culture is being eradicated! Nonsense, of course, because our heritage is immutable and our culture is ever changing. But our tribe is threatened by outsiders.
> 
> And as for the foreign aid budget; slash it! Charity begins at home! We should give the money to someone I've never met 300 miles away who can only afford the most basic Sky subscription, not to someone I've never met 5,000 miles away who is on the verge of starvation. It's _our_ money, and our tribe should benefit from it.
> 
> I just think that **** sapiens are our tribe; that we no longer need to follow some evolutionary imperative to distrust the Other, to protect what we've got against all-comers. No, I don't want a socialist or communist paradise, but I want to see the boundaries between us blurred rather than reinforced.
> 
> I think it is time we used our intellect to recognise and challenge our instincts, to see them for what they are and to ask if there is a better way.
> 
> Brexit, for me, is not a step forward to a better, untried future, but a step backwards to a primitive past.
> 
> Apologies for the length of rant.


So what has Brexit got to do with you not wishing to life in a tribal society then? None of what you mention will change.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> Apologies, I blame @Elles  Not sure where I got that thought from then
> 
> One thing I do know though is being Saturday today my Sunday lunch will be just fine


Oh!!! Thank you!!! One more day before Monday! Bon appétit!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It is called the European Union. Though I suppose if Australia, or Canada wants to join it can always change its name.
> 
> Is one country, or groups of countries imposing austerity (or sanctions) on another the modern version of a siege?


One more reply before I shut up for a while!

The imposition of austerity - I guess you're talking about the eurozone - is something that, as an economist, I disagreed with, but the EU leaders went for it. In the case of Greece there were special circumstances for which that country cannot be absolved of considerable blame; they were living beyond their means for years, though right now they need to have the debt wiped out.

One interesting aspect of the last few years in the eurozone is that, despite the moaning and problems, it has proved remarkably robust. Even Greece is still there and can see light at the end of the tunnel despite the certainty of so many commentators a few years back that it would all fall apart, starting with 'Grexit'.

One of the things that depresses me most about the UK is that 27 other countries are prepared to pool their decision making and to abide by the majority, even if they don't like it. They don't seem to think that the EU is sucking their heritage from them, changing their culture, robbing them of their identity (though there are dissenting voices, like Le Pen and her ilk). They don't seem to think that it is them v the rest. They get on with it and try to improve the many things that need improving, rather than opting out of the euro, and Schengen, and the Social Chapter, and helping with the Syrian refugees, and this, that and the other, and then still claiming that the EU has too much influence. Maybe it's because we are an island,, but I don't find it a very appealing sight.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> So what has Brexit got to do with you not wishing to life in a tribal society then? None of what you mention will change.


The vote showed the British to be more tribal than I thought they would be.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> The bottom line is that I think associations of countries are good things, and the closer they are associated the better. The willingness to pool decisions making and to extend binding democracy across national boundaries is, for me, a template for the future.


That is tribal. Do you know what a tribe is? I think you are using the wrong word. Here, this might help, sounds very much like the EU.

Tribe:-
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Is one country, or groups of countries imposing austerity (or sanctions) on another the modern version of a siege?


That's a good point, difficult because we want to stop countries doing things like build nuclear weapons but its the ordinary people who suffer , not the leaders of the country. 
I feel we're opening a can of worms here. Do we have the right to stop some other countries building nuclear weapons when we have our own ?


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> That is tribal. Do you know what a tribe is? I think you are using the wrong word. Here, this might help, sounds very much like the EU.
> 
> Tribe:-
> a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.


I've just spent many typing minutes explaining it all. I'm not going to explain it all over again.

But yes I know what a tribe is. I've written two books on the subject.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> The imposition of austerity - I guess you're talking about the eurozone - is something that,* as an economist*, I disagreed with, but the EU leaders went for it.


:Hilarious

"I've got a pen in my pocket does that make me a writer
Standing on the mountain doesn't make me no higher
Putting on gloves don't make you a fighter"


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> "I've got a pen in my pocket does that make me a writer
> Standing on the mountain doesn't make me no higher
> Putting on gloves don't make you a fighter"


I'm not sure ad hominem attacks add a lot to the discussion, but whatever makes you Mr Happy.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> Well this member of the 52% is looking in one direction and it isn't backwards


UK joined about 40 years ago . . . so it's not as tho' we haven't given it a fair try.


----------



## Pretoria Kiki

All my family voted to leave the eu and were really disappointed when May wouldn't invoke A50 it was the start of the Tories hoodwinking 17.4 million people. They have pushed it back and back and now we find they are ignoring those who voted to leave by saying they will let people keep coming into the country for another five years even if Brexit does happen. The reason people voted to leave was because of the huge influx of people taking jobs and using services. Now the NHS is on its knees and all services have been cut, people are struggling to find work and housing. We are just a small island heaving at the seams, things will only get worse.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I've just spent many typing minutes explaining it all. I'm not going to explain it all over again.
> 
> But yes I know what a tribe is. I've written two books on the subject.


I'm impressed.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Pretoria Kiki said:


> All my family voted to leave the eu and were really disappointed when May wouldn't invoke A50 it was the start of the Tories hoodwinking 17.4 million people. They have pushed it back and back and now we find they are ignoring those who voted to leave by saying they will let people keep coming into the country for another five years even if Brexit does happen. The reason people voted to leave was because of the huge influx of people taking jobs and using services. Now the NHS is on its knees and all services have been cut, people are struggling to find work and housing. We are just a small island heaving at the seams, things will only get worse.


and your surprised they never told us one word of truth about what would happen when left, it's been just one lie after another and it's going on and on. The whole thing is a farce.


----------



## havoc

Pretoria Kiki said:


> The reason people voted to leave was because of the huge influx of people taking jobs and using services.


Was it? I don't remember anything about that - or anything other than leave or stay, being on the voting paper.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> UK joined about 40 years ago . . . so it's not as tho' we haven't given it a fair try.


44 years ago (1st January 1973) the UK joined the EEC.








In 1993 the UK did not get a vote/referendum on joining the EU and instead was transitioned into the EU (the EU was born on the 1st November 1993).

We did give it a fair chance but as 23rd June 2016 showed we weren't happy with being members of the EU hence now we are leaving.









To the remainers. Who lead project fear? It says it all above. Remember the PM at the time of the Referendum was David Cameron who backed remaining in the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> Was it? I don't remember anything about that - or anything other than leave or stay, being on the voting paper.


I am still somewhat exasperated by unequivocal statements of the sole reason 17 million people voted the way they did.

Never more so than when the Tory Brexiteers quote a reason that just happens to justify their own personal stance on the matter.


----------



## Arnie83

Pretoria Kiki said:


> The reason people voted to leave was because of the huge influx of people taking jobs and using services. Now the NHS is on its knees and all services have been cut, people are struggling to find work and housing.


"Taking jobs" & "people are struggling to find work": Unemployment is at the lowest level since 1975, employment rate highest since records began in 1971

Using services & NHS on its knees: To what extent have EU migrants increased usage of the NHS since 2004?


----------



## Elles

Clearly it's why some people voted to leave the Eu. Maybe their own experience brought them to this conclusion. It's true though, there are many and varied reasons that people voted to leave. For my family it was probably better to stay in really, though that depends on the outcome of the negotiations now.

I prefer to look at the potential positives, of which there could be many yet. I'm trying not to get too disheartened by the possibility that our main negotiator is numpty.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Unemployment is at the lowest level since 1975, employment rate highest since records began in 1971


 and why is that ?


----------



## Dr Pepper

kimthecat said:


> and why is that ?


Hmmm, those dates look familiar. For the live of me though I can't think why 

It's almost, just almost and surely a coincidence, but it's like with Brexit looming the UK is already recovering since the outcome of the vote a year ago. Na, couldn't be because that would mean the EU had held us back for forty odd years.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I've just spent many typing minutes explaining it all. I'm not going to explain it all over again.
> 
> But yes I know what a tribe is. I've written two books on the subject.


What was the second one called "Tribal 2 - because I got the first one wrong"?

You implied countries were triable. I showed the UK certainly isn't. So yes, I don't think you know the meaning of tribal. Or you maybe have a different take on the word?

Isn't a tribe a group of inward looking people who are self-sufficient and require, nor seek, outside intervention, with a head of "state"? Well that was what I was taught at school, perhaps it's all changed today.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> To the remainers. Who lead project fear? It says it all above. Remember the PM at the time of the Referendum was David Cameron who backed remaining in the EU.


You think Remain lead "Project Fear"? How about the multiple handouts warning about the imminent joining of Turkey to the EU with much of their population emigrating to the UK?!

Project fear as you call it is vast becoming Project fact. You just have to read Cheekyscripts' posts to see that. And the predicted far right wing Tory government replacing the moderates has become fact too, depending on one's political views of course.

The irony too is Micheal Foot's Labour Party would have exited the EEC or held a referendum had they been elected in 1983!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The irony too is Micheal Foot's Labour Party would have exited the EEC or held a referendum had they been elected in 1983!


Well it would have been a lot easier to leave as well because back then it was only a small club. They also didn't have article 50. Greenland left the EEC. Do you blame them?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You think Remain lead "Project Fear"? How about the multiple handouts warning about the imminent joining of Turkey to the EU with much of their population emigrating to the UK?!
> 
> Project fear as you call it is vast becoming Project fact. You just have to read Cheekyscripts' posts to see that. And the predicted far right wing Tory government replacing the moderates has become fact too, depending on one's political views of course.


David Cameron was desperate as he knew the odds where stacked against him during the referendum. He kept coming up with silly comments and doom and gloom forecasts from Osborne. Their "*Project Fear*" campaign was rejected by the UK public. David Cameron couldn't even get anymore concessions or a new deal from the EU, the deal he was offered from the EU before the referendum was lame. The irony of it is, is this, even today I reckon that if the referendum happened again (which it won't) the UK public would still vote leave and the remainers would still be unhappy about it. But this won't happen for various reasons:
1) Remember Gina Millar. Well thanks to her crusade to stop Brexit through the courts MP's got a vote in Parliament and overwhelmingly supported the UK public's decision to leave the EU by voting the article 50 bill into law. This will now be hard to untangle from UK law as it would have to be voted on again in Parliament and the law overturned.
2) There would have to another referendum and there is no appetite for this from the UK public or ministers (we have had 2 general elections and a referendum in the last couple of years). It would mean spending millions of tax payers money to setup.
3) Trying to do this will go against what the UK public as a whole voted for on 23rd June 2016.

Theresa May inherited David Cameron's mess. She voted remain but decided to honour the referendum results. Remember in the remain leaflets Cameron said he would honour the outcome of the referendum so it is only right the results where honoured.

The remainers will just have to wait like everyone else to see what deal we get with the EU in October 2018 when the EU want the negotiations wrapped up by.

The UK has always had one foot in the EU and one foot out of the EU so I cannot understand why people think that leaving is such a big issue as the UK was never fully in the EU, if we was we'd have to leave the Euro as well.

Still a devout leave supporter.
Still out and would still vote out.

Anyway I am not going over old ground we have already covered as you already know the answers and they haven't changed.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> We did give it a fair chance but as 23rd June 2016 showed we weren't happy with being members of the EU hence now we are leaving.


That was then,
This what Nige says now,








the Tories have fought against Brexit every step.Article 50 delayed & now they want a transitional deal,brexit bill & free movement for years

These are his words, not mine.
I voted leave and would do again. I just hope we are not disapointed in the outcome inOct. 2018, although I suspect we will be. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> David Cameron was desperate as he knew the odds where stacked against him during the referendum. He kept coming up with silly comments and doom and gloom forecasts from Osborne. Their "*Project Fear*" campaign was rejected by the UK public. David Cameron couldn't even get anymore concessions or a new deal from the EU, the deal he was offered from the EU before the referendum was lame. The irony of it is, is this, even today I reckon that if the referendum happened again (which it won't) the UK public would still vote leave and the remainers would still be unhappy about it. But this won't happen for various reasons:
> 1) Remember Gina Millar. Well thanks to her crusade to stop Brexit through the courts MP's got a vote in Parliament and overwhelmingly supported the UK public's decision to leave the EU by voting the article 50 bill into law. This will now be hard to untangle from UK law as it would have to be voted on again in Parliament and the law overturned.
> 2) There would have to another referendum and there is no appetite for this from the UK public or ministers (we have had 2 general elections and a referendum in the last couple of years). It would mean spending millions of tax payers money to setup.
> 3) Trying to do this will go against what the UK public as a whole voted for on 23rd June 2016.
> 
> Theresa May inherited David Cameron's mess. She voted remain but decided to honour the referendum results. Remember in the remain leaflets Cameron said he would honour the outcome of the referendum so it is only right the results where honoured.
> 
> The remainers will just have to wait like everyone else to see what deal we get with the EU in October 2018 when the EU want the negotiations wrapped up by.
> 
> The UK has always had one foot in the EU and one foot out of the EU so I cannot understand why people think that leaving is such a big issue as the UK was never fully in the EU, if we was we'd have to leave the Euro as well.
> 
> Still a devout leave supporter.
> Still out and would still vote out.
> 
> Anyway I am not going over old ground we have already covered as you already know the answers and they haven't changed.


You won't be surprised to hear I profoundly disagree with your views on the matter. Not in a million years will I accept or adapt to Brexit.

Nevertheless I agree with your comments re the UK's attitude concerning their EU membership. They're stuck in the past with their, "We won the war" mentality. They've avoided moving forward with metrication stalled for example.

They also resent how further forward Germany and other EU countries have become and are too busy fantasising about the Empire they once had.

Brexit will not return to the "glory" days. It just leaves the UK completely isolated and become closer associated with the US. Arguably that would be out of the frying pan into the fire.

You say you can't believe why people think leaving is such a big issue. Well, I do as the UK could have followed the example of countries like Germany and still have its own car industry for example.

It chose not to.

As for Cameron, on getting a majority in 2015 he said he would not serve the full term as PM. The referendum gamble gave him the opportunity to quit perhaps a little earlier than he planned.

Continuing the gambling tradition May's own lost the Tories their majority in parliament.

Now they've gambling with Brexit.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Hmmm, those dates look familiar. For the live of me though I can't think why
> 
> It's almost, just almost and surely a coincidence, but it's like with Brexit looming the UK is already recovering since the outcome of the vote a year ago. Na, couldn't be because that would mean the EU had held us back for forty odd years.


Sorry to burst your bubble again but I'm afraid its nothing to do with the EU, its due to the tories redefining zero hours contracts as full employment.

Here is the reality in context .

Highest employment rates since 1970s;
Lowest productivity growth for 120 years;
Lowest earnings growth for 150 years.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> and why is that ?


Well a not insignificant part of the reason is the economic boost from immigration. There is plenty of analysis available if you're interested in looking for it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well that's interesting. On the news this morning there is rumour Conservative MP's are plotting to oust Theresa May by Christmas or have a leadership contest within the next two years. Guess who their favourite is to replace her? Go on guess...............David Davis is the answer. Let's take a look at David Davis he's a brexiter and the Brexiter MP's on the backbench like this hence the support he has if there is a leadership challenge before Christmas in the conservative party or within the next two years. Does he have to call a general election before 2022 if he becomes PM? No.

Let's see if this comes to fruition.

*Tory members turn to David Davis in battle to succeed Theresa May*

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/22/david-davis-theresa-may-conservative-leadership


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/4062...travel-perk-as-eu-toughens-stance-on-brexit/#

What on earth did they expect. The Sun said 7 out of 10 of their readers voted to "Believe in Britain" following their advice!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/4062...travel-perk-as-eu-toughens-stance-on-brexit/#
> 
> What on earth did they expect. The Sun said 7 out of 10 of their readers voted to "Believe in Britain" following their advice!
> View attachment 318532
> View attachment 318533


Well we'll have to get travel insurance like we have to, to any country outside of the EU. We will no longer be members of the EU club.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well we'll have to get travel insurance like we have to, to any country outside of the EU. We will no longer be members of the EU club.


There's nothing positive about this. Are there any positives at all of leaving the EU?

Can any Brexiter tell me _one_ tangible benefit for the UK?. No more sound bites please.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> Well we'll have to get travel insurance like we have to, to any country outside of the EU. We will no longer be members of the EU club.


You actually think it's a good thing? 
Note it applies to Norway and Switzerland too who are NOT in the EU "Club" as you call it.

I would have at least thought you may have wished for the UK government to negotiate a deal (we know they won't) which would allow it to continue if non members like Norway are eligible?

Perhaps you wish to see the end of anything with "Euro" obliterated from the UK from the European Court of Human Rights to the Eurovision Song Contest?....

I find it incredible you'd wish to see a day trip to France becoming as complex as a few days in the US!

And how about the ex pats? Some may not be eligible for health insurance if they're disabled or too old....


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> There's nothing positive about this. Are there any positives at all of leaving the EU?
> 
> Can any Brexiter tell me _one_ tangible benefit for the UK?. No more sound bites please.


It never really was a perk. It covered medical care. You'd be a fool to travel within the EU without insurance to cover repatriation should you become ill/dead, cancellation/curtailment, loss of luggage and money. Yes insurance may go up by a pound or two but nothing that'll make people think twice about holidaying in the EU. As an example last time we went to the USA a weeks insurance was £30 or so, now EU insurance will always be far cheaper if only because repatriation costs are massively less.

If this issue was a reason anyone voted remain then thank God Brexit won.


----------



## KittenKong

http://inktank.fi/10-top-self-comforting-strategies-leavers-awaiting-brexit/


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> It never really was a perk. It covered medical care. You'd be a fool to travel within the EU without insurance to cover repatriation should you become ill/dead, cancellation/curtailment, loss of luggage and money. Yes insurance may go up by a pound or two but nothing that'll make people think twice about holidaying in the EU. As an example last time we went to the USA a weeks insurance was £30 or so, now EU insurance will always be far cheaper if only because repatriation costs are massively less.
> 
> If this issue was a reason anyone voted remain then thank God Brexit won.


I suspect most people who voted remain did so because they could see no benefits for leaving. Are there any? One'll do..


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> It never really was a perk. It covered medical care. You'd be a fool to travel within the EU without insurance to cover repatriation should you become ill/dead, cancellation/curtailment, loss of luggage and money. Yes insurance may go up by a pound or two but nothing that'll make people think twice about holidaying in the EU. As an example last time we went to the USA a weeks insurance was £30 or so, now EU insurance will always be far cheaper if only because repatriation costs are massively less.
> 
> If this issue was a reason anyone voted remain then thank God Brexit won.


I wouldn't worry. In the not too distant future UK citizens within the UK will have to take out health insurance in their own country let alone having to pay for additional insurance when crossing the channel to France for a couple of hours....


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Well that's interesting. On the news this morning there is rumour Conservative MP's are plotting to oust Theresa May by Christmas or have a leadership contest within the next two years. Guess who their favourite is to replace her? Go on guess...............David Davis is the answer. Let's take a look at David Davis he's a brexiter and the Brexiter MP's on the backbench like this hence the support he has if there is a leadership challenge before Christmas in the conservative party or within the next two years. Does he have to call a general election before 2022 if he becomes PM? No.
> 
> Let's see if this comes to fruition.
> 
> *Tory members turn to David Davis in battle to succeed Theresa May*
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/22/david-davis-theresa-may-conservative-leadership


The comments section is well worth a read lol Heres a few good ones.
_
1) David Davis!_

_Brilliant, please do go ahead and elect him the new leader of the Tories, it will be a laugh._

_It is interesting that in a few short months the Tories have gone from being the new leaders of the bright new tory dawn of Thatcherism.2 and Empire.2 to a rather tawdry collection of losers that are a laughing stock not just of the EU but the whole world. Thanks goodness for Trump, otherwise it would be a clean sweep as no.1._

_Unfortunately they are dragging us all down with them, with their stupid brexit, their embarrassing shenanigans and an embarrassingly grim clinging on to austerity even as they see our finances go haywire._

_...and what they do in the midst of the biggest constitutional crisis in living memory? Go on holiday for 3 months of course, what else.......

2) Useless Tory F***er No 1 holds incompetent and half-hearted negotiations with the EU, then carelessly runs a referendum with no plan whatsoever for what to do if he loses.

He loses.

Useless Tory F***er No 2 by the name of Loathsome becomes strong favourite as successor, after various other UTFs' campaigns implode. Men in grey suits are required to "persuade" UTF2 to stand down.

UTF3 takes over. Not much good at anything except - apparently - vacuous soundbites, she succumbs to Arrogant Tory Syndrome, believing she should drag the country to the polls again, and that she only has to turn up to win.

She loses her majority. There is no plan for what to do next.

So now they want to spend months/years..... while the most important and difficult negotiations in more than half a century grind on towards disaster..... arguing, bitching and fighting over who UTF4 will be.

Why does the Conservative Party treat Britain with such contempt?_

3) _How many more cards can these f***ers shuffle before the whole country realises they're all a bunch of complete jokers_

_4) A change of leader will make no difference. The Tories own brexit and the failing economy_

_5) Desperate stuff, isn't it? There just isn't a plausible character amongst them. They rejected Davis over ten years ago in favour of smooth barsteward Cameron. He was a crazed loon then, what makes him more attractive now._
_

6) 
Theresa May hasn't the personality to be a PM
Johnson is a horrible oaf, not qualified to be a Minister let alone a PMGove is Murdoch's glove puppet
Davis,well the man is suited to being a back benched, promoted well above his station and ability
Amber Rudd is a non entity , like May
Leadsom is a crackpot.

Not only are the Tories in a mess, they are taking the country down with them.

This once great nation is on a slippery slope and nothing is being done to stop the slide.

7)
David davis as PM.

feck me, its like putting bungle from rainbow in charge of the international space station.

You hope he won't feck it all up because he is too dumb to get anything done, but why take the chance?

8) Nothing says "strong and stable" than having three leaders in two years._


----------



## cheekyscrip

It just sounds fanatical.
We have to Leave,no matter it makes us poorer, it gives our children few chances, it creates so many difficulties and inconveniences.
We have to.
Act of faith. Brexit, the new religion.

Tories, the new high priests.

It just sounds more and more sectarian.


Very much like the mess populist party created in Poland.
Both of my countries going mad.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> You implied countries were triable. I showed the UK certainly isn't. So yes, I don't think you know the meaning of tribal. Or you maybe have a different take on the word?
> 
> Isn't a tribe a group of inward looking people who are self-sufficient and require, nor seek, outside intervention, with a head of "state"? Well that was what I was taught at school, perhaps it's all changed today.


Firstly there is no such word as 'triable'. Apologies for pedantry, but you have used it several times now.

If you think countries are not tribal then I haven't explained myself very well, since they are one of the most obvious and unequivocal examples of a modern tribe. Let me try just once more, and this really will be the last time.

Lots of animals form groups and feel the need to belong. Humans and chimpanzees display the characteristics, so the instinct goes back beyond our last common ancestor several million years ago. In our early days the most successful groups fought off other groups and so got the land and the food, and thrived. We are the ancestors of the most successful human groups, or tribes.

Those early instincts, of needing to belong, of identifying with a group, have been passed down to us today, and it is basically those groups that I refer to as tribes. Call them 'modern day tribes' if you want a phrase.

Characteristically, they must be self-defined and distinct, but that, I think is about all that is needed to engender the feelings of belonging, loyalty, and affinity. Once that self-definition is there, the tribal instinct more or less kicks in.

Self-sufficiency would have been coincident with a successful tribe 200,000 ago, but it isn't needed to describe a tribe today, any more than inward looking or having a 'head of state', though most tribes will have leaders or an elite because of our accompanying hierarchical animal characteristics.

The tribe members - then and now - (generally) naturally see other similarly defined tribes as competitors / enemies. In the early days it was necessary for survival. It is something we haven't lost (which for me is where so many modern day problems lie).

Members of our modern day tribes might not kill their competing tribes, but they will still feel better about themselves if their chosen tribe outperforms other comparable groups.

Thus, the followers of a football team are a tribal group, taunting the opposition fans, celebrating when their chosen team win. Gangs are tribal groups (obviously). Religions are (in part) tribal groups - there is a definite element of social belonging as well as some theistic belief. Political parties are (in part) tribal groups, defending their own position and rubbishing the opposition regardless of personal opinion.

And a country - any country - is just about the most obvious example of a tribal group that there is. A country is defined as an extant group by the people who live there. They give themselves a name, an identity. A flag. A national anthem. A currency. They feel an affinity with others who inhabit the same country whether they personally know those people or not. They support their team in sports. A tragedy in the world somewhere gets specific coverage if one or two Britons are involved; otherwise, not so much. They call for charity to begin within their defined borders. It's as much a tribe as a bunch of chimps.

Where we live, the Iceni were a tribe, as were the Belgae, the Catuvellauni, etc.

Later, through armed amalgamation, we had Wessex, Northumbria etc - but we called them Kingdoms then.

Eventually we got England. Another self-defined tribe, just bigger.

And now we have the UK.

Of course countries are tribes. All of them. All self defined groups to which their members feel an affinity and a sense of belonging. All tribes, not too dissimilar to the ones who lived 200,000 ago. All replicated across the world. I can never hear the chant "U.S.A.! U.S.A.!" without thinking of a primitive tribe waving its spears at another tribe on the far riverbank. Because that's exactly what it is.

You might want to read _"Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind"_ by Yuval Noah Harari if you need more convincing.

And one of the instinctive characteristics of these tribes that has been passed down to us is the dislike / distrust / wariness of other similar tribes and of individual members of other groups. You can see it most plainly in the behaviour of naked apes today.

And you can see it in the Brexit vote.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*triable*
(ˈtraɪəbəl)
_adj_
*1. *Capable of being tried or tested: a triable plan.
*2. *_Law_
*a. *Capable of being resolved through a legal trial: a triable issue of fact.
*b. *Capable of being resolved in a particular legal forum.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/triable

It is also in the Oxford dictionary: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/triable

And Collins English Dictionary: http://www.collinsdictionary.com/amp/english/triable


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Firstly there is no such word as 'triable'. Apologies for pedantry, but you have used it several times now.
> 
> If you think countries are not tribal then I haven't explained myself very well, since they are one of the most obvious and unequivocal examples of a modern tribe. Let me try just once more, and this really will be the last time.
> 
> Lots of animals form groups and feel the need to belong. Humans and chimpanzees display the characteristics, so the instinct goes back beyond our last common ancestor several million years ago. In our early days the most successful groups fought off other groups and so got the land and the food, and thrived. We are the ancestors of the most successful human groups, or tribes.
> 
> Those early instincts, of needing to belong, of identifying with a group, have been passed down to us today, and it is basically those groups that I refer to as tribes. Call them 'modern day tribes' if you want a phrase.
> 
> Characteristically, they must be self-defined and distinct, but that, I think is about all that is needed to engender the feelings of belonging, loyalty, and affinity. Once that self-definition is there, the tribal instinct more or less kicks in.
> 
> Self-sufficiency would have been coincident with a successful tribe 200,000 ago, but it isn't needed to describe a tribe today, any more than inward looking or having a 'head of state', though most tribes will have leaders or an elite because of our accompanying hierarchical animal characteristics.
> 
> The tribe members - then and now - (generally) naturally see other similarly defined tribes as competitors / enemies. In the early days it was necessary for survival. It is something we haven't lost (which for me is where so many modern day problems lie).
> 
> Members of our modern day tribes might not kill their competing tribes, but they will still feel better about themselves if their chosen tribe outperforms other comparable groups.
> 
> Thus, the followers of a football team are a tribal group, taunting the opposition fans, celebrating when their chosen team win. Gangs are tribal groups (obviously). Religions are (in part) tribal groups - there is a definite element of social belonging as well as some theistic belief. Political parties are (in part) tribal groups, defending their own position and rubbishing the opposition regardless of personal opinion.
> 
> And a country - any country - is just about the most obvious example of a tribal group that there is. A country is defined as an extant group by the people who live there. They give themselves a name, an identity. A flag. A national anthem. A currency. They feel an affinity with others who inhabit the same country whether they personally know those people or not. They support their team in sports. A tragedy in the world somewhere gets specific coverage if one or two Britons are involved; otherwise, not so much. They call for charity to begin within their defined borders. It's as much a tribe as a bunch of chimps.
> 
> Where we live, the Iceni were a tribe, as were the Belgae, the Catuvellauni, etc.
> 
> Later, through armed amalgamation, we had Wessex, Northumbria etc - but we called them Kingdoms then.
> 
> Eventually we got England. Another self-defined tribe, just bigger.
> 
> And now we have the UK.
> 
> Of course countries are tribes. All of them. All self defined groups to which their members feel an affinity and a sense of belonging. All tribes, not too dissimilar to the ones who lived 200,000 ago. All replicated across the world. I can never hear the chant "U.S.A.! U.S.A.!" without thinking of a primitive tribe waving its spears at another tribe on the far riverbank. Because that's exactly what it is.
> 
> You might want to read _"Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind"_ by Yuval Noah Harari if you need more convincing.
> 
> And one of the instinctive characteristics of these tribes that has been passed down to us is the dislike / distrust / wariness of other similar tribes and of individual members of other groups. You can see it most plainly in the behaviour of naked apes today.
> 
> And you can see it in the Brexit vote.


Ah I see. So the (or maybe just your) definition of tribe has changed.

Actually that's probably not correct, more you are just taking one part of the definition and applying it to countries rather than taking the whole. You can't really do that and still use the word tribe or tribal, you need another word, maybe tribal characteristics?

Thank you for correcting my spelling


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat said:


> *triable*
> (ˈtraɪəbəl)
> _adj_
> *1. *Capable of being tried or tested: a triable plan.
> *2. *_Law_
> *a. *Capable of being resolved through a legal trial: a triable issue of fact.
> *b. *Capable of being resolved in a particular legal forum.
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/triable
> 
> It is also in the Oxford dictionary: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/triable
> 
> And Collins English Dictionary: http://www.collinsdictionary.com/amp/english/triable


I blame my predictive text!

But oh look, it is a word.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> I blame my predictive text!


That's why my posts end up with edits in them, predictive texts .


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Well a not insignificant part of the reasons the economic boost from immigration . There is plenty of analysis available if you're interested in looking for it.


I thought a lot of immigrants had stopped coming or had returned to their homeland , that was the impression I got from media and social media .

"Unemployment is at the lowest level since 1975, employment rate highest since records began in 1971"

I'm not that good at Maths but we joined the EEC in 1973 and it seems to have taken an awfully long time to get that good !
Is it not anything to do with the fact that we've had a Tory government for the 7 years ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I'm not that good at Maths but we joined the EEC in *1993* and it seems to have taken an awfully long time to get that good !
> Is it not anything to do with the fact that we've had a Tory government for the 7 years ?


Typo I guess  we joined EEC in 1973


----------



## Elles

Well if that's your definition, it's nature and everyone does it.. At least my tribe is just leaving the Eu, not sending suicide bombers into crowded places. Maybe there are things that other tribes do that I don't like. 

I've already given many reasons for leaving the Eu, the remainers don't appear to accept them as reasons, ignore them, or have short memories, when they keep asking for one advantage. One.

The Eu will no longer have Britain objecting to their ambitions, be they regarding the environment, or an Eu army. Britain may now tread its own path, ban chemicals the Eu won't, change tack on farming subsidies to better serve the planet and the environment. Arguing in Brussels isn't to my mind working very well.

Others think the Eu was the way forward, I didn't. If anything it makes countries more, not less tribal if that's how we're looking at it, promoting a 'what's in it for us' attitude.

If people in the Eu do better without us and the Eu makes more effort to persuade other members to stay in, then that's a good thing for a lot of people. The Uk leaving could be the best thing for Europe. Whether it's also the best thing for the planet, world trade, peoples of other countries and the uk, time will tell.

Many people who are part of the commonwealth like having a Queen and being part of it. There's plenty of Uk born and bred who don't, despite her being 'our' queen, so I think you're wrong on that. Many Brits feel closer to Canadians and Australians, than they do to Europeans I think. Language and heritage probably. Grandads fought the Germans to free Europe, sons and fathers (women too ofc) fought Saddam to free Iraq. They didn't go in believing they were taking them over, beating their chests and banging their spears.

Honestly, the way some who voted Remain view those who voted to leave is not at all pleasant, or justified.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Members of our modern day tribes might not kill their competing tribes, but they will still feel better about themselves if their chosen tribe outperforms other comparable groups.All self defined groups to which their members feel an affinity and a sense of belonging.
> All self defined groups to which their members feel an affinity and a sense of belonging.


 You said you were sad about Brexit and our inward looking view but I am horrified by the abuse that is hurled around now by different groups , not just in demonstrations but on social media too .
You expect groups like EDL to be abusive but its prevalent now , it seems to be an acceptable part of our society , we're supposed to be a more enlightened society but it seems we are going backwards and becoming primal .

The Right to die is in the news again . I remember last time , there were demonstration outside parliament, the RTD group was made up of older people , very dignified , holding up their posters and standing resolute and quiet an stoic in the face of the opposition screaming and waving their banners a few feet from them . The opposite group thinking they are in the right doesn't mean they have the right to act like that .


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> Typo I guess  we joined EEC in 1973


 Thanks Stockwell Cat.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Well if that's your definition, it's nature and everyone does it.. At least my tribe is just leaving the Eu, not sending suicide bombers into crowded places. Maybe there are things that other tribes do that I don't like.
> 
> I've already given many reasons for leaving the Eu, the remainers don't appear to accept them as reasons, ignore them, or have short memories, when they keep asking for one advantage. One.
> 
> The Eu will no longer have Britain objecting to their ambitions, be they regarding the environment, or an Eu army. Britain may now tread its own path, ban chemicals the Eu won't, change tack on farming subsidies to better serve the planet and the environment. Arguing in Brussels isn't to my mind working very well.
> 
> Others think the Eu was the way forward, I didn't. If anything it makes countries more, not less tribal if that's how we're looking at it, promoting a 'what's in it for us' attitude.
> 
> If people in the Eu do better without us and the Eu makes more effort to persuade other members to stay in, then that's a good thing for a lot of people. The Uk leaving could be the best thing for Europe. Whether it's also the best thing for the planet, world trade, peoples of other countries and the uk, time will tell.
> 
> Many people who are part of the commonwealth like having a Queen and being part of it. There's plenty of Uk born and bred who don't, despite her being 'our' queen, so I think you're wrong on that. Many Brits feel closer to Canadians and Australians, than they do to Europeans I think. Language and heritage probably. Grandads fought the Germans to free Europe, sons and fathers (women too ofc) fought Saddam to free Iraq. They didn't go in believing they were taking them over, beating their chests and banging their spears.
> 
> Honestly, the way some who voted Remain view those who voted to leave is not at all pleasant, or justified.


And vice versa... How trying it is to be told " you voted to stay in EU so go to Spain"...without killing the moron?

( and serve for killing a human..that is the only thing that stops me...)

So far I can see lots of damage done but no real advantages, except that rich got richer and corps would pay less.

For the rest of us it is the change for the worse. Revenue will fall.
More cuts. Higher taxes .

Higher prices. Inflation. Less money.
Longer working years. Higher uni fees.
Damage to environment.
Eventually great disappointment and sharp turn to the left, far left which will damage economy further still.

Britain's status in the world sadly diminished.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I thought a lot of immigrants had stopped coming or had returned to their homeland , that was the impression I got from media and social media .
> 
> "Unemployment is at the lowest level since 1975, employment rate highest since records began in 1971"
> 
> I'm not that good at Maths but we joined the EEC in 1993 and it seems to have taken an awfully long time to get that good !
> Is it not anything to do with the fact that we've had a Tory government for the 7 years ?


It's to do with an awful lot of things, including the Tory government (once Osborne realised that austerity wasn't working and more or less stopped is). But although there have undoubtedly been social issues caused by immigration, the numbers have increased demand just by being here, and increased economic activity as they find work, earn and spend money and pay taxes. The higher the growth, generally, the more jobs and the lower the unemployment. Their presence has increased jobs for those already here as well as the new arrivals.

It's a bit boring, but looking at the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) figures for projected GDP growth, they specifically mention an assumed net immigration. The higher their assumption, the higher their prediction of GDP growth, and vice versa. In making their 2016 projections the government were assuming a range of immigration figures, the median of which was still 185,000 in 2021; nearly twice their own (apparent) target!

If you're interested ...
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox....s/the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk/


----------



## kimthecat

@Arnie83 Thx I will check out the link


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Well if that's your definition, it's nature and everyone does it.. At least my tribe is just leaving the Eu, not sending suicide bombers into crowded places. Maybe there are things that other tribes do that I don't like.


It is indeed nature and we are all instinctively subject to it. I like to think, though, that we can recognise it for what it is that we don't need to follow that siren call in order to thrive; that we can act in a more enlightened way. And that if we really do need to be tribal (which of course we do) let's make the whole human race our tribe, and not just the bit of it we happen to live in.

But you're right, leaving the EU is not in the same league as some things that are happening, and it may even end up bringing people (in the remaining EU27) closer together.


----------



## Elles

When less well off countries joined the Eu, why didn't big business move to them for their employees, instead of expanding more here and making people move to an already over crowded, over polluted country to exploit them? We're tearing our hair out and forecasting doom over corporations and institutions leaving the uk, when it might have been better if they'd moved, or not set up here years ago. Aren't we being greedy wanting it all for ourselves? Whether they're based in Austria, or Timbuktu we can still trade and work with them.

I read that one of the big banks who are already moving a small part of their operations to mainland Europe, are moving to a beautiful part of the World and have already booked places in schools for the children of their employees. They're taking those who want to go with them, not dumping them. It's probably very exciting and far from a disaster.

We, as in we Europe, we the Uk and we the planet, could make Brexit a power for good. I don't believe the Eu could keep going on as it is and our leaving could be the best thing we could have done to it. If we can just get past the reasons racists and evil people might have voted to leave and accept that some voted leave for more altruistic reasons. Maybe then we could move forward, instead of dwelling on the past and wringing our hands. Even Stephen Hawking believes some good could come from it, so we have to hope the elite and those really in control make it so.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> When less well off countries joined the Eu, why didn't big business move to them for their employees, instead of expanding more here and making people move to an already over crowded, over polluted country to exploit them? We're tearing our hair out and forecasting doom over corporations and institutions leaving the uk, when it might have been better if they'd moved, or not set up here years ago. Aren't we being greedy wanting it all for ourselves? Whether they're based in Austria, or Timbuktu we can still trade and work with them.
> 
> I read that one of the big banks who are already moving a small part of their operations to mainland Europe, are moving to a beautiful part of the World and have already booked places in schools for the children of their employees. They're taking those who want to go with them, not dumping them. It's probably very exciting and far from a disaster.
> 
> We, as in we Europe, we the Uk and we the planet, could make Brexit a power for good. I don't believe the Eu could keep going on as it is and our leaving could be the best thing we could have done to it. If we can just get past the reasons racists and evil people might have voted to leave and accept that some voted leave for more altruistic reasons. Maybe then we could move forward, instead of dwelling on the past and wringing our hands. Even Stephen Hawking believes some good could come from it, so we have to hope the elite and those really in control make it so.


Problem is - could you trust British elite more than EU elite?
Murdoch? Green? 
Their puppet politicians?
What good will come from replacing EU workforce by non- EU workforce?

All sacrifice will come to that...
Britain participated in law making in EU.
British regulations anyhow will have to be compatible with the rest etc...

I have no cristal ball but if cannot see any real good in that splendid isolation in times when nations everywhere are joining together for trade or defence.

Even in NATO we will be less of a trusted ally if we get into quarrel about EU citizens rights etc....

Actually I see EU being less damaged by Brexit than Britain itself.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Problem is - could you trust British elite more


Dunno, I don't trust any of them. I expect Gib trust the Brit elite over the Spanish elite, though they prob trust their own elite even more. If they trust anyone.

The British retire to places like Spain, because its nicer. No one moves to Britain for the weather and the environment. They're usually moving for the money. Europe should be pleased to get more business and people should be happier that they can move to less crowded, more pleasant places to live and work. It's a good thing imo.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Dunno, I don't trust any of them. I expect Gib trust the Brit elite over the Spanish elite, though they prob trust their own elite even more. If they trust anyone.
> As
> The British retire to places like Spain, because its nicer. No one moves to Britain for the weather and the environment. They're usually moving for the money. Europe should be pleased to get more business and people should be happier that they can move to less crowded, more pleasant places to live and work. It's a good thing imo.










As to Elite .... It is closing. Some people will have to go to crowd UK...poor things have no other passport than British. ..

Gibraltar is very much the insurance market and we see it crumbling... 














New regulations, hike in taxes - thanks to Maybot and we cannot be competitive with EU based companies.
Our economy will not be as damaged by Spain as by Brexit.


----------



## Elles

They can move now and get an Eu passport if they want


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> They can move now and get an Eu passport if they want


Not so sure. Ask your family. And move where? We are British so homeland seems to be the common choice.
Unless you speak German or French.
Spain has horrendous unemployment and corruption.
Nice to retire but not if you have to work.


----------



## KittenKong

This is almost funny. How can anyone believe a word they say?

The sad thing is, they still do!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> This is almost funny. How can anyone believe a word they say?
> The sad thing is, they still do!
> View attachment 318562


How can anyone believe a word this man says?
Sad thing is people do.








Would you trust this man dealing with leaving the EU? I wouldn't.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> And move where? We are British so homeland seems to be the common choice.


You can bugger off your a bloody foreigner now and we voted leave to get rid of you lot :Stop :Mooning


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Not so sure. Ask your family. And move where? We are British so homeland seems to be the common choice.
> Unless you speak German or French.
> Spain has horrendous unemployment and corruption.
> Nice to retire but not if you have to work.


Don't know. If your firm are moving to Malta and you'd like to live somewhere similar to Gib, but with more space, where English is most commonly spoken, but are a part of Europe, maybe look at Malta too? Otherwise, stay put and see what happens. I don't know your particular situation. My family are just getting on with it atm. Didn't we just have a discussion about how easy languages are to learn?

The French want the Eu language to be French as soon as Britain is out, so learning French may become more widespread and thus easier to learn. Though why Spanish wouldn't be chosen. More people worldwide speak Spanish than French. Not sure Trump, or the Australians will be negotiating in French though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So what exactly is Labours stance on exiting the EU?

In there manifesto 2017 they say they will stay in the Single Market and Customs Union and today Corbyn says Labour will bring the UK out of the Single Market.

*Labour would take Britain out of the EU single market, Jeremy Corbyn says*

The party's position on the customs union has not yet been decided, however

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-labour-eu-single-market-jeremy-corbyn-leave-customs-union-immigration-maastricht-a7855621.html?amp

*Labour would leave single market, says Jeremy Corbyn*

Labour leader says market membership is dependent on being in EU, but party would seek to mirror its benefits with trade deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/23/labour-would-leave-single-market-jeremy-corbyn

Here's what the Labour Manifesto said:









So it's official Labours stance on Brexit has changed yet again.

The only difference there is between Conservatives and Labour at the moment is Labour are unsure of there stance on the Customs Union they said in there manifesto they would keep the UK in. I wonder if reality is hitting home after Jeremy Corbyn's meeting with Michel Barnier?

Labour has done a massive u-turn.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> When less well off countries joined the Eu, why didn't big business move to them for their employees, instead of expanding more here and making people move to an already over crowded, over polluted country to exploit them? We're tearing our hair out and forecasting doom over corporations and institutions leaving the uk, when it might have been better if they'd moved, or not set up here years ago. Aren't we being greedy wanting it all for ourselves? Whether they're based in Austria, or Timbuktu we can still trade and work with them.
> 
> I read that one of the big banks who are already moving a small part of their operations to mainland Europe, are moving to a beautiful part of the World and have already booked places in schools for the children of their employees. They're taking those who want to go with them, not dumping them. It's probably very exciting and far from a disaster.
> 
> We, as in we Europe, we the Uk and we the planet, could make Brexit a power for good. I don't believe the Eu could keep going on as it is and our leaving could be the best thing we could have done to it. If we can just get past the reasons racists and evil people might have voted to leave and accept that some voted leave for more altruistic reasons. Maybe then we could move forward, instead of dwelling on the past and wringing our hands. Even Stephen Hawking believes some good could come from it, so we have to hope the elite and those really in control make it so.


Hopes & dreams arent going to save us. Brexit is a catastrophe, the charlatans running this country should be open & honest with the public about the complexity of delivering brexit & the dire consequences we face right across the board for leaving the EU.

Can I see your references for Stephen Hawking please Elles? Only, like every other trusted academic i've seen, he has vehemently opposed brexit.

For example -
.
*Trump's popularity inexplicable and Brexit spells disaster, says Stephen Hawking*

Scientist repeats backing for remain in EU campaign and says US presidential candidate is 'demagogue who appeals to lowest common denominator'


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Hopes & dreams arent going to save us.


Nor is Labour as they have just realised that the UK cannot stay in the Single Market and Customs Union and have woken up to this reality because we won't be in the EU. So I hope you weren't banking on Labour keeping the UK in either the Single Market or Customs Union? They have just broke one of there manifesto pledges :Muted

So what makes you think Brexit will be a disaster? We already have France and Holland asking for permission to fish in UK territorial waters after Brexit otherwise there will be a shortage of fish in there countries. Great way to make money by charging them to have access to our fishing grounds - surely that is a positive thing isn't it as the UK will be making money for access to our fishing grounds and will be able to give them fishing quotas as well?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> ItNor is Labour as they have just realised that the UK cannot stay in the Single Market and Customs Union and have woken up to this reality because we won't be in the EU. So I hope you weren't banking on Labour keeping the UK in either the Single Market or Customs Union? They have just broke one of there manifesto pledges :Muted


I was well aware of labour's intention actually (see below  ). The manifesto doesn't say stay in the single market, it says maintain the benefits, so they haven't broken any pledge. I don't agree with labour on this either, but I thought you were all for leaving the single market & the customs union?



noushka05 said:


> I was well aware labours intention was to leave the single market - from the manifesto & from Corbyn's own words. I was under no illusion about that at all & I'm someone who want's to remain in the SM.
> 
> What I didn't realise, until just, is that Chuka had stated this (below) Now its clear even to layman like me that we cannot have restrictions on free movement AND single market membership. The EU will not budge on that, so I can only assume Chuka is making mischief for Corbyn again lol
> 
> View attachment 316322





noushka05 said:


> He could not have been clearer.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I was well aware of labour's intention actually (see below  ). The manifesto doesn't say stay in the single market, it says maintain the benefits, so they haven't broken any pledge. I don't agree with labour on this either, but I thought you were all for leaving the single market & the customs union?


How can they retain the benefits of the Single Market and Customs Union when we won't be in either of them? *The EU won't allow us to maintain the same rights either as we would have left the EU.* That's the bit Labour don't seem to grasp.

Yes I am for leaving the Single Market and Customs Union so the UK can forge new deals around the World. My stance hasn't changed on this.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> How can they retain the benefits of the Single Market and Customs Union when we won't be in either of them? *The EU won't allow us to maintain the same rights either as we would have left the EU.* That's the bit Labour don't seem to grasp.
> 
> Yes I am for leaving the Single Market and Customs Union so the UK can forge new deals around the World. My stance hasn't changed on this.


From what I've seen, they cant. I'm pinning my hopes that as reality hits home enough of the public will rise up & force labour to change tack.

Then I don't understand your anger at labour, they haven't changed course - yet.

As for the fishing industry, its looking like a disaster. Can you share your references please?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> From what I've seen, they cant. I'm pinning my hopes that as reality hits home enough of the public will rise up & force labour to change tack.
> 
> Then I don't understand your anger at labour, they haven't changed course - yet.
> 
> As for the fishing industry, its looking like a disaster. Can you share your references please?


2nd July 2017 UK Pulls out of 53 year old fisheries agreement 
Environment Secretary Michael Gove says that backing out of the London Fisheries Convention will allow Britain to 'take back control' of its fishing policy.

- London Fisheries Convention, signed in 1964 before the UK joined the European Union. The convention allows vessels from France, Belgium, Germany, Ireland and the Netherlands to fish within six and 12 nautical miles of the UK's coastline. 
It sits alongside the EU Common Fisheries Policy which allows all European countries access between 12 and 200 nautical miles of the UK and sets quotas for how much fish nations can catch.

Ministers claimed the move would help control fishing access to UK waters, as it will no longer be bound by existing access agreements, and enable the country to become fully responsible for fisheries management.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...gn-countries-british-waters-a7819176.html?amp

*France eyes post-Brexit deal to keep fishing in UK waters*

http://www.thelocal.fr/20170718/france-eyes-post-brexit-deal-to-keep-fishing-in-uk-waters/amp


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Then I don't understand your anger at labour, they haven't changed course - yet.


Not angry at Labour. Laughing at Labour - yes.


----------



## Elles

Change can be worrying and sometimes some things get worse before they get better, but dwelling on it and being fearful of something that hasn't happened, isn't inevitable and could work out for the better for everyone, is very sad. I've done my best, not to persuade anyone who voted Remain to change their mind about their vote, but to try to look on a brighter, or at least more pragmatic side to it. Reading some of these posts is rather depressing. Not just about the Eu, but how people might view each other for the way they Voted. I don't want anyone to feel hated, or excluded because of where they were born. I think Britain leaving the Eu may actually give people more choice, not less.

I linked Stephen Hawking further up. Of course he was against leaving the Eu and would rather we'd voted to stay in, but he's an optimistic sort of chap, who never seems to stay down for long.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat said:


> Not angry at Labour. Laughing at Labour - yes.


 Apparently, I will deal with it means I will do F.A. so that's a joke.


----------



## stockwellcat.

What's annoying me at the moment is this, the UK is in one of its most critical situations in recent history and the Conservatives are bickering about who is going to succeed Theresa May, Labour are acting like they have won the GE when they didn't. The Conservatives need to get a grip and concentrate on Brexit instead of acting like nothing is happening. Labour need to be constructive and perhaps help out instead of constantly saying they want another GE when there is no appetite for another GE. The clock is ticking, 14 months will fly by and the negotiators are only meeting once every 4 weeks with EU negotiators. If the political parties respect the outcome of the referendum surely they should be helping the Conservatives out to make a success of Brexit and the Conservatives accepting this help. Never mind divisions in the UK there are huge rifts in Parliament between the political parties.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> How can anyone believe a word this man says?
> Sad thing is people do.
> View attachment 318565
> 
> Would you trust this man dealing with leaving the EU? I wouldn't.
> View attachment 318568


As you know I'm against Corbyn's stance on Brexit.

However, you argue people shouldn't trust him but don't know if you're suggesting we should trust Gove and co.

The fact is, Gove and co openly lied.

Corbyn hasn't had a chance to prove if he too is a liar or not. Sadly, like Ed Miliband he'll never have to opportunity to prove either way.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Don't know. If your firm are moving to Malta and you'd like to live somewhere similar to Gib, but with more space, where English is most commonly spoken, but are a part of Europe, maybe look at Malta too? Otherwise, stay put and see what happens. I don't know your particular situation. My family are just getting on with it atm. Didn't we just have a discussion about how easy languages are to learn?
> 
> The French want the Eu language to be French as soon as Britain is out, so learning French may become more widespread and thus easier to learn. Though why Spanish wouldn't be chosen. More people worldwide speak Spanish than French. Not sure Trump, or the Australians will be negotiating in French though.


Cannot move. Family situation. Vulnerable adults that cannot be left behind.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> What's annoying me at the moment is this, the UK is in one of its most critical situations in recent history and the Conservatives are bickering about who is going to succeed Theresa May, Labour are acting like they have won the GE when they didn't. The Conservatives need to get a grip and concentrate on Brexit instead of acting like nothing is happening. Labour need to be constructive and perhaps help out instead of constantly saying they want another GE when there is no appetite for another GE. The clock is ticking, 14 months will fly by and the negotiators are only meeting once every 4 weeks with EU negotiators. If the political parties respect the outcome of the referendum surely they should be helping the Conservatives out to make a success of Brexit and the Conservatives accepting this help. Never mind divisions in the UK there are huge rifts in Parliament between the political parties.


You cannot make succes of Brexit more that England can win World Cup.
Though possibly more chance with World Cup.

We can only talk now about extended period of grace as damage limitations.


----------



## stockwellcat.

According to remainers we can simply reverse the decision to leave the EU (this won't happen). This is not so:

*An exit from Brexit would prove a messy affair*

Any request to revoke Article 50 requires European Council consent

July 23, 2017 5:34 pm by Wolfgang Münchau

There is a lot of noise at the moment about an exit from Brexit, as the newly appointed leader of the UK Liberal Democrats put it. The desperation of the pro-Europeans is perhaps best expressed by former prime minister Tony Blair's statement that it is "absolutely necessary that Brexit does not happen".

So let us assume, for the sake of argument, that these politicians get their wish. What then? This is a far more instructive discussion than idle speculation about whether we will ever get to that point.

The first thing to note is that we are entering a legal grey zone. It may, or may not be possible. The consensus seems to be that it is possible to halt Brexit, but that it requires the explicit consent of the European Council. The European Commission's legal interpretation is probably the best guidance we have. "Once triggered, [an Article 50 notification] cannot be unilaterally reversed. Notification is a point of no return."

So what will happen when the UK prime minister writes the No Brexit letter to Donald Tusk, president of the European Council? This would have to happen before March 29, 2019, the day when Brexit would otherwise take effect. The first thing Mr Tusk will presumably do is to consult the other 27 EU leaders. Will they simply say "great, let's move on"?

Some may, but I could easily imagine at least of one of them raising their finger to ask whether the EU should attach a few political conditions. Would this not be a good moment, for example, to ask the UK to revoke the budget rebate?

The rebate was negotiated when the UK joined the then European Economic Community in 1973. It was justified because of a mismatch in the size of the agricultural sector between the UK and other European countries. But agricultural spending accounts for a much lower proportion of total EU spending these days.

Other leaders might ask for an early political agreement on the next EU budget, which takes place after the current budget period ends in 2020. If the UK remains torn about EU membership after a rueful decision to revoke Brexit, would the UK government not try to drive a hard bargain to reduce its contributions further, or even veto the entire budget?

A further complication is the reform of the eurozone. After the German elections in September, discussions will start between France and Germany on a treaty change to strengthen the governance of the eurozone. Emmanuel Macron, the French president, may well ask whether the UK might help or hinder this process. Brexit gives France and Germany a unique opportunity to establish a financial centre within the borders of the eurozone. Would they not revoke this opportunity if they agree to an exit from Brexit?

And then there is immigration policy, and several other areas from which the UK opted out.

At this point, the consensus may well be that it would be a lot easier to say "No" to the UK. Or to insist that the UK can rejoin but only after March 29, 2019. European law at least has a provision for that situation - Article 49 of the Lisbon treaty. It would mean that the UK would reapply for EU membership from scratch.

From the point of view of the 27, this procedure has the advantage that it strengthens their negotiating position. The UK would have to join the EU without rebates and opt-outs.

If you think Brexit is messy, an exit from Brexit is no different. Last year's Brexit referendum did not define the meaning of Brexit. But the second scenario would be no clearer. Nobody will know for sure what an exit from Brexit means - a return to the status quo ante, or something else entirely?

Source of information: http://www.ft.com/content/3238add4-6e20-11e7-bfeb-33fe0c5b7eaai


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Cannot move. Family situation. Vulnerable adults that cannot be left behind.


What is everyone else doing? I presume that if Gib remains part of Britain after Brexit, anyone vulnerable or out of work will get government help. Same as if they lost their job in other circumstances? If it ends up totally separate, the Spanish may no longer be able to work there.

Unfortunately even if everything does get better for whatever reason, it rarely means better for everyone. Even Jeremy said for the many, not the few and not for the all. If you're stuck with it because of family commitments, then I am sorry. At least nothing has been decided yet. The only thing is to push for the involvement of the Gib minister and Gibraltar being kept in the loop, I expect. At the end of the day though Gibraltar is British and if British companies would rather leave and set up in Malta and the Eu permits it, there's not much anyone can do about it. Brexit or no Brexit. Maybe other companies will set up in Gibraltar, if they don't have a uk presence.

It would require a change in British law to go back now we've triggered article 50 apparently. If I've not misunderstood. There's a 'facts' video on the BBC.


----------



## Elles

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...u-40676514/reality-check-is-brexit-inevitable

This one. One of the BBC reality checks.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> 2nd July 2017 UK Pulls out of 53 year old fisheries agreement
> Environment Secretary Michael Gove says that backing out of the London Fisheries Convention will allow Britain to 'take back control' of its fishing policy.
> 
> - London Fisheries Convention, signed in 1964 before the UK joined the European Union. The convention allows vessels from France, Belgium, Germany, Ireland and the Netherlands to fish within six and 12 nautical miles of the UK's coastline.
> It sits alongside the EU Common Fisheries Policy which allows all European countries access between 12 and 200 nautical miles of the UK and sets quotas for how much fish nations can catch.
> 
> Ministers claimed the move would help control fishing access to UK waters, as it will no longer be bound by existing access agreements, and enable the country to become fully responsible for fisheries management.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-withdraw-london-fisheries-convention-stop-foreign-countries-british-waters-a7819176.html?amp
> 
> *France eyes post-Brexit deal to keep fishing in UK waters*
> 
> http://www.thelocal.fr/20170718/france-eyes-post-brexit-deal-to-keep-fishing-in-uk-waters/amp


Good grief - 'Take back control' Don't tell me people still falling for this nonsense?

Ian Dunt did an excellent in depth article on this..

.http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...the-fishes-gove-s-first-move-raises-alarm-ove

It is quite extraordinary how they manage to make the same mistake over and over again. The Tory response to Brexit has persistently prioritised rhetoric over content. They did it with European Court of Justice jurisdiction, when Theresa May adopted a black-and-white position which made compromises on market access much harder. She did it again by suggesting the EU was trying to subvert the British election. Every time, the government seems to prioritise satisfying the emotional needs of right-wing tabloid editors over nurturing goodwill with our negotiating partners.

Which brings us to Michael Gove. The new environment secretary - now in place following the prime minister's electoral hara kiri over early summer - has made his first big announcement. Britain has triggered its withdrawal from the London Fisheries Convention, an obscure agreement signed in 1964. Because it was a British initiative, the UK government needed to write a letter to itself informing it of the decision. It is, in effect, dismantling its own statesmanship.

It's not really connected to the EU, but it was nevertheless greeted with huge relief by leading Brexiters, who felt it had been months since they had had a decent thing to say about the project. "We will be saying we're taking back control," Gove told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show. "We will have control." Leading Brexiter Daniel Hannan said the move helped define what Brexit entailed

*He is entirely correct - the move does help define Brexit. It is meaningless, strategically counter-productive and designed primarily to make reactionaries feel better about themselves.*

It's unclear if withdrawing from the convention has any legal meaning at all. It gives rights to fish in the waters up to 12 miles off the coast of other signatories. The Common Fisheries Policy, introduced by the EU in the 70s, later expanded this territorial line to 200 miles off coast, which is the new international norm.

Some, like Robin Churchill, professor emeritus of International Law at the University of Dundee, believe the Common fisheries policy supersedes the London Convention. Others disagree.

But regardless of the legal issue, it has very little practical meaning. Fishing up to that 12 mile limit is small scale - fisherman catching crab and lobsters in bay areas, that type of thing.There might arguably be some marginal effect off the south coast of England because it's so close to France. But the big money is in white fish caught in the north-east Atlantic and the North Sea. That's all well off the 12-mile limit.

The announcement does have one significant effect, however. It serves to infuriate officials in Brussels and leaders in European capitals. Gove's announcement will be interpreted as another example of toothless British belligerence. Michel Barnier, who used to be the French minister for fisheries, issued a response almost dripping with disdain and ending with an us-versus-them point which should be the exact type of attitude we're trying to avoid.

Once again, we see that unhelpful combination of British aggressiveness and strategic ineptitude. They are a terrible combination. More bad blood to pour into the bucketload we have already created in order to satisfy a perceived domestic audience. Vital diplomatic goodwill in negotiations will be lost, in order to secure something of symbolic value to a few headbangers.

But even if the move is meaningless in and of itself, it might still tell us something about the direction of travel. It suggests Britain intends to pull up the drawbridge and isolate ourselves.

That, it must be admitted, would probably be in line with what many fishermen want. Ciarán O' Driscoll, an independent researcher at NUI Galway, calls fishermen "the hipsters of euroscepticism". These guys were into it before it was cool.

The UK fishing industry doesn't actually make much money. In 2015, it contributed just £604 million to GDP, employing around 12,000 fishers and a further 18,000 in fish processing. But it plays a much bigger role in the Brexit debate than its size as an industry would suggest.

It's the pointy end of statehood - territory, borders, maps and so on," Driscoll says. "In an age of perceived state decline, it allows you to say: 'This is the state, a pure red line.' It goes really well with the British nostalgia for empire right now. The Tories are desperate for a Brexit win and this allows them to say they've taken back control of something."

*But if Gove's move really does suggests a red-line policy on fishing, there will be terrible damage to the environment and Britain's fishing industry.*

There are basically three options for post-Brexit fishing. At the soft end, you could try to stay in or replicate the Common Fisheries Policy. The middle ground would entail leaving the policy but entering the bilateral negotiations Norway has with the EU. And the hard end would involve cutting ourselves off from the European system altogether.

Almost no-one is talking about the soft version, but it is not impossible that that is where we will end up. Fishing is small fry, a tiny subplot of a huge negotiation in which those industries which bring in the most cash - like financial services or car manufacturing - will be prioritised. Right now, fishing is the mascot of the Brexit campaign. But at the business end of free trade agreement negotiation - probably during transition sometime after 2019 - it is more likely to be treated as a pawn, sacrificed to save the queen. The sheer amount of work that is required to sort out a fishing system outside the EU is completely disproportionate to its size. It's possible ministers would take the easy way out and adopt a form of associate membership which would keep the UK in the Commons Fisheries Policy

If we do leave, we could pursue the middle ground and try to get involved in the bilateral arrangements outside the EU. Each year, before the Council of Ministers thrashes out a total allowable catch for each country, it meets with Norway, Iceland and the Faroe Islands, which are outside the EU, to share out the North Sea stocks.

After Brexit, Britain could try to insert itself into that meeting. That alone is not an easy task. These annual talks often collapse in disagreement. But it was considered - until Gove's announcement at least - to be the most likely outcome.

The London convention decision suggests Gove is envisaging something much more radical - excluding other countries from our territorial waters. The new policy would be: You fish in your water and we'll fish in ours. Hard Brexit of the fishes.

This is the Game of Thrones approach to fisheries policy, a return to old certainties and Driscoll's pointy red lines. At first, it might seem to be in Britain's benefit. After all, lots of countries fish extensively in British waters but we do just 20%-30% of our fishing in theirs. You might say they need us more than we need them.

*But this is a superficial reading of the situation. Britain might not fish much in Europe, but we do sell to it. We export around 80% of our wild-caught seafood, with four of the top five destinations being European countries. Excluding EU fishing vessels from the UK is very likely to result in the EU slapping down high tariffs on fish, causing huge damage to the fishing industry and coastal communities in the UK.
*
Norway would become our direct competitor, further complicating those difficult North Sea talks. But, as Craig McAngus, expert in territorial politics and constitutional change at the Department for International Relations in the University of Aberdeen, points out, Norway has years of dealing with these tariffs and non-tariff requirements. They've become very competitive. The UK won't be able to match that overnight.

The EU would also retaliate in other ways, with harsher trading terms being imposed on really substantial British industries, like cars or aerospace. Gove's decision is part of the zero-sum, nationalist approach to Brexit, when what is urgently needed is a positive proposition of mutual benefit.

This system would also be next-to-impossible to police without massive expenditure. Spanish and French fishermen can just go a few miles into our waters anyway. Who's going to see them? Policing waters is prohibitively expensive and no government in their right mind would dedicate that level of funding to it for so little gain.

It would also be illegal under international law. The UK has ratified the UN Agreement on Straddling Fish Stocks and Highly Migratory Fish Stocks and the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, both of which require cooperation on conservation and management*.*

And then there is the possibility of sanctions. A few years ago shoals of mackerel and herring migrated from Norwegian water into those of the Faroe Islands. The tiny nation unilaterally set its quotas very high and started catching more fish. The EU retaliated by banning their imports and prohibited the entry of Faroese fishing vessels into European ports . Unsurprisingly, the Faroe Islands backed down.

A similar approach would have much less of an overall effect on the UK, but arguably not on the struggling coastal towns dependant on fish exports.

The industry is already in trouble. It faces years of uncertainty - not just over Brexit, but over the devolution of fishing which follows it. It is set to lose the £243 million in subsidies in EU subsidies it receives. Austerity means the UK hasn't had any real fishing policy for years, for instance on the concentration of quotas into ever-fewer hands. At the very least, the UK should be exploring mechanisms which would allow it to negotiate and agree annual fishing quotas with the EU and thinking up what kind of UK fisheries management and enforcement system it will need*.*
*
Instead, we have Gove talking the same old nonsense, poisoning our relationship with crucial European partners, making theatrical public announcements with no substance and pursuing strategies based on seducing the right-wing press rather than improving the lives of those he claims to represent. The threat this announcement implicitly involves would damage us more than it does our negotiating partner, just like the threat of a no-deal outcome in general

One year on, and they keep making the exact same mistakes.*



Elles said:


> Change can be worrying and sometimes some things get worse before they get better, but dwelling on it and being fearful of something that hasn't happened, isn't inevitable and could work out for the better for everyone, is very sad. I've done my best, not to persuade anyone who voted Remain to change their mind about their vote, but to try to look on a brighter, or at least more pragmatic side to it. Reading some of these posts is rather depressing. Not just about the Eu, but how people might view each other for the way they Voted. I don't want anyone to feel hated, or excluded because of where they were born. I think Britain leaving the Eu may actually give people more choice, not less.
> 
> I linked Stephen Hawking further up. Of course he was against leaving the Eu and would rather we'd voted to stay in, but he's an optimistic sort of chap, who never seems to stay down for long.


He still is against leaving the EU. I haven't come across a single trusted academic who supports brexit, have you? He is pinning his hopes on the elites doing the right thing now. Hope is all we have. We have gambled everything, for what gain? I'm so sorry for the younger generation, they will be the ones who will suffer the most. And they know it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> What is everyone else doing? I presume that if Gib remains part of Britain after Brexit, anyone vulnerable or out of work will get government help. Same as if they lost their job in other circumstances? If it ends up totally separate, the Spanish may no longer be able to work there.
> 
> Unfortunately even if everything does get better for whatever reason, it rarely means better for everyone. Even Jeremy said for the many, not the few and not for the all. If you're stuck with it because of family commitments, then I am sorry. At least nothing has been decided yet. The only thing is to push for the involvement of the Gib minister and Gibraltar being kept in the loop, I expect. At the end of the day though Gibraltar is British and if British companies would rather leave and set up in Malta and the Eu permits it, there's not much anyone can do about it. Brexit or no Brexit. Maybe other companies will set up in Gibraltar, if they don't have a uk presence.
> 
> It would require a change in British law to go back now we've triggered article 50 apparently. If I've not misunderstood. There's a 'facts' video on the BBC.


Can I add as well it wouldn't be simple reversing the decision. Under EU law we'd have to activate article 49 and this start a fresh and reapply for membership. 27 EU member states would have to vote as well to see if the UK can have another Referendum to remain in the EU and it would be on their terms with no privileges we previously had and from what I understand will be a very messy affair, messier than Brexit itself.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> What's annoying me at the moment is this, the UK is in one of its most critical situations in recent history and the Conservatives are bickering about who is going to succeed Theresa May, Labour are acting like they have won the GE when they didn't. The Conservatives need to get a grip and concentrate on Brexit instead of acting like nothing is happening. Labour need to be constructive and perhaps help out instead of constantly saying they want another GE when there is no appetite for another GE. The clock is ticking, 14 months will fly by and the negotiators are only meeting once every 4 weeks with EU negotiators. If the political parties respect the outcome of the referendum surely they should be helping the Conservatives out to make a success of Brexit and the Conservatives accepting this help. Never mind divisions in the UK there are huge rifts in Parliament between the political parties.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Good grief - 'Take back control' Don't tell me people still falling for this nonsense?
> 
> Ian Dunt did an excellent in depth article on this..
> 
> .http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...the-fishes-gove-s-first-move-raises-alarm-ove
> 
> It is quite extraordinary how they manage to make the same mistake over and over again. The Tory response to Brexit has persistently prioritised rhetoric over content. They did it with European Court of Justice jurisdiction, when Theresa May adopted a black-and-white position which made compromises on market access much harder. She did it again by suggesting the EU was trying to subvert the British election. Every time, the government seems to prioritise satisfying the emotional needs of right-wing tabloid editors over nurturing goodwill with our negotiating partners.
> 
> Which brings us to Michael Gove. The new environment secretary - now in place following the prime minister's electoral hara kiri over early summer - has made his first big announcement. Britain has triggered its withdrawal from the London Fisheries Convention, an obscure agreement signed in 1964. Because it was a British initiative, the UK government needed to write a letter to itself informing it of the decision. It is, in effect, dismantling its own statesmanship.
> 
> It's not really connected to the EU, but it was nevertheless greeted with huge relief by leading Brexiters, who felt it had been months since they had had a decent thing to say about the project. "We will be saying we're taking back control," Gove told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show. "We will have control." Leading Brexiter Daniel Hannan said the move helped define what Brexit entailed
> 
> *He is entirely correct - the move does help define Brexit. It is meaningless, strategically counter-productive and designed primarily to make reactionaries feel better about themselves.*
> 
> It's unclear if withdrawing from the convention has any legal meaning at all. It gives rights to fish in the waters up to 12 miles off the coast of other signatories. The Common Fisheries Policy, introduced by the EU in the 70s, later expanded this territorial line to 200 miles off coast, which is the new international norm.
> 
> Some, like Robin Churchill, professor emeritus of International Law at the University of Dundee, believe the Common fisheries policy supersedes the London Convention. Others disagree.
> 
> But regardless of the legal issue, it has very little practical meaning. Fishing up to that 12 mile limit is small scale - fisherman catching crab and lobsters in bay areas, that type of thing.There might arguably be some marginal effect off the south coast of England because it's so close to France. But the big money is in white fish caught in the north-east Atlantic and the North Sea. That's all well off the 12-mile limit.
> 
> The announcement does have one significant effect, however. It serves to infuriate officials in Brussels and leaders in European capitals. Gove's announcement will be interpreted as another example of toothless British belligerence. Michel Barnier, who used to be the French minister for fisheries, issued a response almost dripping with disdain and ending with an us-versus-them point which should be the exact type of attitude we're trying to avoid.
> 
> Once again, we see that unhelpful combination of British aggressiveness and strategic ineptitude. They are a terrible combination. More bad blood to pour into the bucketload we have already created in order to satisfy a perceived domestic audience. Vital diplomatic goodwill in negotiations will be lost, in order to secure something of symbolic value to a few headbangers.
> 
> But even if the move is meaningless in and of itself, it might still tell us something about the direction of travel. It suggests Britain intends to pull up the drawbridge and isolate ourselves.
> 
> That, it must be admitted, would probably be in line with what many fishermen want. Ciarán O' Driscoll, an independent researcher at NUI Galway, calls fishermen "the hipsters of euroscepticism". These guys were into it before it was cool.
> 
> The UK fishing industry doesn't actually make much money. In 2015, it contributed just £604 million to GDP, employing around 12,000 fishers and a further 18,000 in fish processing. But it plays a much bigger role in the Brexit debate than its size as an industry would suggest.
> 
> It's the pointy end of statehood - territory, borders, maps and so on," Driscoll says. "In an age of perceived state decline, it allows you to say: 'This is the state, a pure red line.' It goes really well with the British nostalgia for empire right now. The Tories are desperate for a Brexit win and this allows them to say they've taken back control of something."
> 
> *But if Gove's move really does suggests a red-line policy on fishing, there will be terrible damage to the environment and Britain's fishing industry.*
> 
> There are basically three options for post-Brexit fishing. At the soft end, you could try to stay in or replicate the Common Fisheries Policy. The middle ground would entail leaving the policy but entering the bilateral negotiations Norway has with the EU. And the hard end would involve cutting ourselves off from the European system altogether.
> 
> Almost no-one is talking about the soft version, but it is not impossible that that is where we will end up. Fishing is small fry, a tiny subplot of a huge negotiation in which those industries which bring in the most cash - like financial services or car manufacturing - will be prioritised. Right now, fishing is the mascot of the Brexit campaign. But at the business end of free trade agreement negotiation - probably during transition sometime after 2019 - it is more likely to be treated as a pawn, sacrificed to save the queen. The sheer amount of work that is required to sort out a fishing system outside the EU is completely disproportionate to its size. It's possible ministers would take the easy way out and adopt a form of associate membership which would keep the UK in the Commons Fisheries Policy
> 
> If we do leave, we could pursue the middle ground and try to get involved in the bilateral arrangements outside the EU. Each year, before the Council of Ministers thrashes out a total allowable catch for each country, it meets with Norway, Iceland and the Faroe Islands, which are outside the EU, to share out the North Sea stocks.
> 
> After Brexit, Britain could try to insert itself into that meeting. That alone is not an easy task. These annual talks often collapse in disagreement. But it was considered - until Gove's announcement at least - to be the most likely outcome.
> 
> The London convention decision suggests Gove is envisaging something much more radical - excluding other countries from our territorial waters. The new policy would be: You fish in your water and we'll fish in ours. Hard Brexit of the fishes.
> 
> This is the Game of Thrones approach to fisheries policy, a return to old certainties and Driscoll's pointy red lines. At first, it might seem to be in Britain's benefit. After all, lots of countries fish extensively in British waters but we do just 20%-30% of our fishing in theirs. You might say they need us more than we need them.
> 
> *But this is a superficial reading of the situation. Britain might not fish much in Europe, but we do sell to it. We export around 80% of our wild-caught seafood, with four of the top five destinations being European countries. Excluding EU fishing vessels from the UK is very likely to result in the EU slapping down high tariffs on fish, causing huge damage to the fishing industry and coastal communities in the UK.
> *
> Norway would become our direct competitor, further complicating those difficult North Sea talks. But, as Craig McAngus, expert in territorial politics and constitutional change at the Department for International Relations in the University of Aberdeen, points out, Norway has years of dealing with these tariffs and non-tariff requirements. They've become very competitive. The UK won't be able to match that overnight.
> 
> The EU would also retaliate in other ways, with harsher trading terms being imposed on really substantial British industries, like cars or aerospace. Gove's decision is part of the zero-sum, nationalist approach to Brexit, when what is urgently needed is a positive proposition of mutual benefit.
> 
> This system would also be next-to-impossible to police without massive expenditure. Spanish and French fishermen can just go a few miles into our waters anyway. Who's going to see them? Policing waters is prohibitively expensive and no government in their right mind would dedicate that level of funding to it for so little gain.
> 
> It would also be illegal under international law. The UK has ratified the UN Agreement on Straddling Fish Stocks and Highly Migratory Fish Stocks and the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, both of which require cooperation on conservation and management*.*
> 
> And then there is the possibility of sanctions. A few years ago shoals of mackerel and herring migrated from Norwegian water into those of the Faroe Islands. The tiny nation unilaterally set its quotas very high and started catching more fish. The EU retaliated by banning their imports and prohibited the entry of Faroese fishing vessels into European ports . Unsurprisingly, the Faroe Islands backed down.
> 
> A similar approach would have much less of an overall effect on the UK, but arguably not on the struggling coastal towns dependant on fish exports.
> 
> The industry is already in trouble. It faces years of uncertainty - not just over Brexit, but over the devolution of fishing which follows it. It is set to lose the £243 million in subsidies in EU subsidies it receives. Austerity means the UK hasn't had any real fishing policy for years, for instance on the concentration of quotas into ever-fewer hands. At the very least, the UK should be exploring mechanisms which would allow it to negotiate and agree annual fishing quotas with the EU and thinking up what kind of UK fisheries management and enforcement system it will need*.*
> *
> Instead, we have Gove talking the same old nonsense, poisoning our relationship with crucial European partners, making theatrical public announcements with no substance and pursuing strategies based on seducing the right-wing press rather than improving the lives of those he claims to represent. The threat this announcement implicitly involves would damage us more than it does our negotiating partner, just like the threat of a no-deal outcome in general
> 
> One year on, and they keep making the exact same mistakes.*
> 
> He still is against leaving the EU. I haven't come across a single trusted academic who supports brexit, have you? He is pinning his hopes on the elites doing the right thing now. Hope is all we have. We have gambled everything, for what gain? I'm so sorry for the younger generation, they will be the ones who will suffer the most. And they know it.


I honestly have not got time to read long, long posts that take half a page up. The UK has taken moves to remove the law surrounding fishing off the UK coastal areas 6 to 12 miles and the French and Dutch have so far requested to get an agreement to fish in UK waters after Brexit otherwise they'll have no fishing industry but agree that there are more pressing issues at present eg the UK's withdrawal negotiations and treaty.

I made my decision on the 23rd June 2016 and I will not and cannot change that decision. I would not change my decision for anything in the world. I am happy with the way I voted.

Just wait and see what is offered because as of yet the future is a blank page in a book.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> What's annoying me at the moment is this, the UK is in one of its most critical situations in recent history and the Conservatives are bickering about who is going to succeed Theresa May, Labour are acting like they have won the GE when they didn't. The Conservatives need to get a grip and concentrate on Brexit instead of acting like nothing is happening. Labour need to be constructive and perhaps help out instead of constantly saying they want another GE when there is no appetite for another GE. The clock is ticking, 14 months will fly by and the negotiators are only meeting once every 4 weeks with EU negotiators. If the political parties respect the outcome of the referendum surely they should be helping the Conservatives out to make a success of Brexit and the Conservatives accepting this help. Never mind divisions in the UK there are huge rifts in Parliament between the political parties.


Just face it, we are s.c.r.e.w.e.d SWC :Eggonface


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> I honestly have not got time to read long, long posts that take half a page up. The UK has taken moves to remove the law surrounding fishing off the UK coastal areas 6 to 12 miles and the French and Dutch have so far requested to get an agreement to fish in UK waters after Brexit otherwise they'll have no fishing industry but agree that there are more pressing issues at present eg the UK's withdrawal treaty.


Just read the highlighted bits then.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Just face it, we are s.c.r.e.w.e.d SWC :Eggonface
> 
> View attachment 318606


We are not screwed. The negotiations have only just started.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> We are not screwed. The negotiations have only just started.


We are. Look outside your bubble, it is blatantly obvious we are.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We are. Look outside your bubble, it is blatantly obvious we are.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We are. Look outside your bubble, it is blatantly obvious we are.


I am not in a bubble like the remainers.
All I read on this thread is this from remainers:








It must be awful for you to be going on for the last 14 months thinking "We're doomed" constantly. Try and have a positive out look for the United Kingdom that you live in.


----------



## Elles

Unfortunately I can't trust academics and universities who relied on Eu grants and support to be unbiased. I expect Stephen Hawking knows more of the elite than I do. At least he's hopeful.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> According to remainers we can simply reverse the decision to leave the EU...


Strange when the truth is that it is an option on the table. Legally nobody knows for certain. Certainly you have many in the EU who are stating it can be. It would need to be agreed by the other EU member states however. This is where brexiteers arguments show a major flaw.. if we are so important to the EU that we have a strong negotiating position to lessen damage to the UK it would be a foregone conclusion that we would be welcomed back.



stockwellcat said:


> I honestly have not got time to read long, long posts that take half a page up.


Not that you are above posting them of course. Then again some actually contain facts.



> I made my decision on the 23rd June 2016 and I will not and cannot change that decision. I would not change my decision for anything in the world. I am happy with the way I voted.


Oh we know that, shame you are totally unable to justify why you voted to damage people's lives and seem so happy to do so.

As for your stance on negotiations it's funny (well if it wasn't so sad) that negotiations are only to limit the damage rather than the ability to gain any real advantage to the UK.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> I am not in a bubble like the remainers.
> All I read on this thread is this from remainers:
> View attachment 318607
> 
> It must be awful for you to be going on for 14 months thinking "We're doomed" constantly. Try and have a positive out look for the United Kingdom that you live in.


Remainers are listening to reason & looking objectively at the evidence so its hard to feel positive about something when you can see no positives & you've got a devious bunch of incompetents prepared to drag us over a cliff. Remoaners keep asking this question, but can you just name us one tangible benefit of leaving the EU?

No wonder we've been reduced to a laughing stock.












Elles said:


> Unfortunately I can't trust academics and universities who relied on Eu grants and support to be unbiased. I expect Stephen Hawking knows more of the elite than I do. At least he's hopeful.


Denial of evidence and rejection of academics ties Trump & his supporters & Brexiters together. Climate deniers use the same tactic in their rejection of climate scientists - claiming they too are bias because of where they get their funding. We're living in very dangerous times indeed when experts here & in the US are dismissed like this.

As perhaps the smartest man on the planet , I bet Stephen Hawking knows more than the entire establishment elite put together lol Its a great pity brexiters didn't heed his warning before voting leave, isn't it?. Stephen also has a strong social conscience, another reason he is a labour supporter I expect. He is optimistic the elites will step up - I'm not. Do they care enough to do anything? Or do they welcome the repeal bill which will give unparalleled powers to the most toxic, untrustworthy government in living memory? . How can we stop this right wing power grab? Is Stephen even aware of Liam Fox's collusion with the dark money network?? So much at stake - and for what? Maybe you can tell me, because I am boggled if I know?

.


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## KittenKong

From Another Angry Voice.


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## KittenKong




----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> "Taking jobs" & "people are struggling to find work": Unemployment is at the lowest level since 1975, employment rate highest since records began in 1971
> 
> ?


Aye! But look at the quality of 'that' employment, zero hours contracts ring any bells


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Unfortunately I can't trust academics and universities who relied on Eu grants and support to be unbiased. I expect Stephen Hawking knows more of the elite than I do. At least he's hopeful.


Why would you think Tories unbiased? Universities have long enough tradition of speaking out , people even burnt for it.

Truth: Britain worse than predicted and France. Germany and Spain better.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Strange when the truth is that it is an option on the table. Legally nobody knows for certain. Certainly you have many in the EU who are stating it can be. It would need to be agreed by the other EU member states however. This is where brexiteers arguments show a major flaw.. if we are so important to the EU that we have a strong negotiating position to lessen damage to the UK it would be a foregone conclusion that we would be welcomed back.


Strange I quote an article from a paper you guys think spouts facts The FT (Financial Times). Ok. Fine. Article 50 cannot simply be reversed as it has been overwhelmingly voted into UK law. Secondly EU law states that if the leaving member state wishes to change its mind must trigger article 49. Article 49 requires said country to apply to rejoin the EU. Plus a vote would have to take place in the EU to allow the said country to rejoin (if this happened the UK would lose all its current concessions etc) but this to happen the law would have to be changed in the UK and seeing as the Article 50 bill was overwhelmingly voted into law MP's won't have an appetite to change this. So is it an option on the negotiating table? No, at least not for the UK. The UK as a whole decided to leave the EU and the negotiations have only just begun with 14 months to go. It has been realised that the UK may not be able to discuss a trade deal but just an agreement on leaving the EU for now and a trade deal later on after the UK has left. We just have to wait and see what happens.

Today Liam Fox starts laying the groundwork to for a US-UK trade deal, the same as what is is currently in progress for an Australian-UK trade deal.



> Oh we know that, shame you are totally unable to justify why you voted to damage people's lives and seem so happy to do so.


I don't need to justify myself to anyone on any forum especially a pet forum online. I said I was going to vote leave and did and there is and was nothing you could do about that. My decision was already made up.


> As for your stance on negotiations it's funny (well if it wasn't so sad) that negotiations are only to limit the damage rather than the ability to gain any real advantage to the UK.


Oh you have wiped your crystal ball clean and can predict things now that haven't happened. Nice. The negotiations have only begun. Nothing has been agreed to as of yet. Did you know that's what happens in negotiations, it takes time to find common ground and make concessions.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Here's a interesting fact. Since this thread reached 10,000 posts a week ago nothing has actually progressed or changed regarding Brexit. There has been no progress or major announcement.

But somehow (and I'm as guilty as anyone) we've managed to a further 242 post. If there was a law against threads going round in circles this one would be triable  So I think I'll stay away until something actually happens.


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Strange I quote an article from a paper you guys think spouts facts and then you chose to pick on me. Ok. Fine. Article 50 cannot simply be reversed as it has been overwhelmingly voted into UK law. Secondly EU law states that if the leaving member state wishes to change its mind must trigger article 49. Article 49 requires said country to apply to rejoin the EU. Plus a vote would have to take place in the EU to allow the said country to rejoin but for this to happen the law would have to be changed in the UK and seeing as the Article 50 bill was overwhelmingly voted into law MP's won't have an appetite to change this. So is it an option on the negotiating table? No, at least not for the UK. The UK as a whole decided to leave the EU and the negotiations have only just begun with 14 months to go. It has been realised that the UK may not be able to discuss a trade deal but just an agreement on leaving the EU for now and a trade deal later on after the UK has left. We just have to wait and see what happens.
> 
> *Today Liam Fox starts laying the groundwork for a US-UK trade deal, the same as what is is currently in progress for an Australian-UK trade deal.*
> 
> I don't need to justify myself to anyone on any forum especially a pet forum online. I said I was going to vote leave and did and there is and was nothing you could do about that. My decision was already made up.
> Oh you have wiped your crystal ball clean and can predict things now that haven't happened. Nice. The negotiations have only begun. Nothing has been agreed to as of yet. Did you know that's what happens in negotiations, it takes time to find common ground.





Dr Pepper said:


> Here's a interesting fact. Since this thread reached 10,000 posts a week ago nothing has actually progressed or changed regarding Brexit. There has been no progress or major announcement.
> 
> But somehow (and I'm as guilty as anyone) we've managed to a further 242 post. If there was a law against threads going round in circles this one would be triable  So I think I'll stay away until something actually happens.


Anyone who cares about the environment & our NHS should all be VERY afraid about Liam Fox doing deals with the US. This is no cause to celebrate.

Nothing has changed? Wow, you really do need to take your goggles off & look - brace yourself because its not pretty.

Try starting with this:

As pound sinks to 8-month low, remember what that means. Brexit vote wiped £1.2 trillion off UK households in 2016.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...value-stocks-2016-credit-suisse-a7431366.html

.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Anyone who cares about the environment & our NHS should all be VERY afraid about Liam Fox doing deals with the US. This is no cause to celebrate.
> 
> Nothing has changed? Wow, you really do need to take your goggles off & look - brace yourself because its not pretty.
> 
> Try starting with this:
> 
> As pound sinks to 8-month low, remember what that means. Brexit vote wiped £1.2 trillion off UK households in 2016.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...value-stocks-2016-credit-suisse-a7431366.html
> 
> .
> 
> .


Regarding the pound and currency exchange, it was expected to go up and down. It will recover. Be patient.

Regarding the trade deals, who knows. You really think our negotiators are dumb dim wits don't you. You will find they aren't. Alot goes on behind the scenes you don't see. Again be patient.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding the pound and currency exchange, it was expected to go up and down. It will recover. Be patient.
> 
> Regarding the trade deals, who knows. You really think our negotiators are dum dim wits don't you. You will find they aren't. Again be patient.


What proof do you have it will recover? It could take decades, if at all. How will we prevent the right wing power grab via the repeal bill? People are going to feel real pain soon, austerity will seem like a walk in the park.

I KNOW they are dim wits.

Worse than that Liam Fox is a sinister character involved with the secret transatlantic dark money network. Corporate dark money is taking power both sides of the Atlantic, this is really what 'taking back control' is all about.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> What proof do you have it will recover? It could take decades, if at all. How will we prevent the right wing power grab via the repeal bill? People are going to feel real pain soon, austerity will seem like a walk in the park.


The pound will react when we know what kind of deal we will get with the EU (around October 2018 we will have an idea of this as the deal will be on the table). If you haven't noticed the pound reacts everytime something happens. The press do not help throwing speculation around.


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Aye! But look at the quality of 'that' employment, zero hours contracts ring any bells


Indeed they do. The situation, as always, is rather more nuanced than these posts can capture.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Strange I quote an article from a paper you guys think spouts facts The FT (Financial Times).


Which in this case spouts the opinion of the author. The fact is nobody knows. Article 50 was never meant to be used and written by politicians, not lawyers.



> Ok. Fine. Article 50 cannot simply be reversed as it has been overwhelmingly voted into UK law.


Which like anything can simply be changed by parliament.



> Secondly EU law states that if the leaving member state wishes to change its mind must trigger article 49.


No it doesn't. It's a grey area and many in the EU have already stated it would not be necessary.



> So is it an option on the negotiating table? No


It's always an option until we actually leave.



> Today Liam Fox starts laying the groundwork to for a US-UK trade deal, the same as what is is currently in progress for an Australian-UK trade deal.


Ah you mean simply and agreement to start the real negotiations once we leave the EU. That is all that is allowed as stated by the Australian leader during his nice little speech.



> I don't need to justify myself to anyone on any forum especially a pet forum online. I said I was going to vote leave and did and there is and was nothing you could do about that. My decision was already made up.


Yep hard to "justify" something when you cannot and everything you do try gets shown to be false when looking at facts,



> Oh you have wiped your crystal ball clean and can predict things now that haven't happened. Nice. The negotiations have only begun. Nothing has been agreed to as of yet. Did you know that's what happens in negotiations, it takes time to find common ground and make concessions.


You love this statement however negotiations are only scrambling to retain some of the advantages of the EU minimising the damage. They are not gaining the UK anything we are not losing by leaving.



stockwellcat said:


> Regarding the pound and currency exchange, it was expected to go up and down. It will recover. Be patient.


How much damage in the meantime?



> Regarding the trade deals, who knows. You really think our negotiators are dumb dim wits don't you. You will find they aren't. Alot goes on behind the scenes you don't see. Again be patient.


Well either you believe expert trade deal negotiators who have clearly stated brexit was nuts and trade deals on our own are going to be worse than as a member of the EU or you believe politicians who have shown themselves to be complete liars. Which group do you believe?


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> Nothing has changed? Wow, you really do need to take your goggles off & look - brace yourself because its not pretty.
> 
> Try starting with this:
> 
> As pound sinks to 8-month low, remember what that means. Brexit vote wiped £1.2 trillion off UK households in 2016.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...value-stocks-2016-credit-suisse-a7431366.html
> 
> .
> 
> .


Seriously, do you realise what you did there? I state nothing has progressed or changed in the last week and the thread is going round in circles. Your response is a clipping from 2016!!

You have to admit that's actually quite funny


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> the thread is going round in circles.


 I agree with you there. I won't entertain the deaf remainers on here from now on.


> You have to admit that's actually quite funny


It is funny because it's 14 months later and they are still going on its like the remainers are stuck in a time loop.

I take whatever anyone says on a forum by the way @Goblin with a pinch of salt. Reality is something quite different than cyber space.


----------



## Elles

Oh lol. Project fear is hitting new lows. Luckily although the hobs are gas, I have an electric oven.

My old Aunt used to say, if you can't cheer up, shut up. 

I understand. Some people are frozen in fear and so panic stricken they can think of nothing other than reversing the decision. Sorry, but I'm not being dragged down with you. They said the Russians are going to nuke us, a meteor is going to hit us, the millennium bug will cause planes to fall out of the sky. It was Isis, not the millennium bug. 

The uk is getting out of the Eu. The planet isn't going to stop turning. Chances are it will be a better planet because of it and more people will benefit than will lose out. We'll have to see.

I'm now going to try to put the parrot to bed.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Oh lol. Project fear is hitting new lows. Luckily although the hobs are gas, I have an electric oven.


Project fear which is according to reality proving to be project truth. What is proving true from the leave campaign?



> My old Aunt used to say, if you can't cheer up, shut up.


Truth should never be silenced simply as it is inconvenient to your opinion.



> I understand. Some people are frozen in fear and so panic stricken they can think of nothing other than reversing the decision.


UK will survive so hardly panic. Why cause damage for no positives? You've yet to explain any real advantages other than supposition that magically the UK government will do what it has never done in the past whilst losing many advantages of being within the EU.



> The planet isn't going to stop turning. Chances are it will be a better planet because of it and more people will benefit than will lose out. We'll have to see.


Based on what? All evidence and what is happening points to the majority losing out.


----------



## Elles

I've answered so many times now. If remainers don't accept, or ignore my answers, there's little point my repeating them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I've answered so many times now. If remainers don't accept, or ignore my answers, there's little point my repeating them.


Ditto


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I've answered so many times now. If remainers don't accept, or ignore my answers, there's little point my repeating them.


You've answered "you want it to be so" not anything based on facts. I want to win the lottery, facts tell me it will not happen as I don't even play.


----------



## Elles

Some of project Elles is also coming true. I don't buy lottery tickets either, though I suppose if you hope to win, buying a ticket is a start. I'm not sure what you wanted from staying in the Eu tbh. I read a lot about what people fear from our leaving. Maybe all that was before the vote, when I wasn't participating in petforums. Now we are leaving and I have no particular reason to hope the government reverse the decision, I'm getting on with it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You've answered "*you want it to be so*" not anything based on facts.


You got your answer and many other people who voted leave voted based on the above answer. So why can't you accept the answer instead of asking the same questions over and over again?

The thing is trying to belittle people who voted leave is not going to make people change their minds, in fact I think you won't change the majority of people's minds full stop who voted leave just as much as people who voted remain won't change their minds. It gets tedious to say the least that you won't accept people's answer and feel the need to keep going around in circles asking the same questions.

FACTS:
1) The referendum happened.
2) The majority of the people that took part in voting at the referendum chose to vote to leave the EU.
3) The UK opened a trade working group with Australia in October 2016 to work out a trade deal for when the UK leaves the EU.
4) After being corrected by the courts The House of Commons and the House of Lords voted to uphold the UK people's decision to leave the EU by voting overwhelmingly in favour of the Article 50 bill which has been signed by the Queen and put into UK law.
5) The Article 50 letter was signed and delivered to Donald Tusk the President of the EU on the 29th March 2017 and Article 50 was triggered.
6) The negotiations have begun and the UK has just completed the second round of negotiations with 14 more months to go to the EU's deadline of October 2018 to finish the negotiations so the UK can leave the EU on the 29th March 2019.
6) On the 24th July 2017 Dr Liam Fox MP is in the USA to open a trade working group with the USA to work out what a trade deal will be like with the USA with a view to having a trade deal with the USA when the UK Brexits from the EU.
7) Michel Barnier said it himself - The Clock is ticking for the negotiations on the UK's separation deal with the EU (not trade deal).

So which part of we are leaving the EU don't you understand?

Of course the currency rates are going to go up and down and we might have a bit of hardship along the way depending on what type of deal is truck with the EU. But we are definitely leaving not staying in the EU. Some people waited 43 years for the Referendum that was held last year to vote to get the UK out of the EU formally the EEC and didn't kick up as much of a fuss as the remainers are. You are just going to have to get used to it. Again we are leaving the EU, there is a world beyond the club called the EU you know.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> I agree with you there. I won't entertain the deaf remainers on here from now on.
> .


Oh I think we should.
Reckon we ought to tempt em up for the hokey cokey teach em life aint all doom n gloom


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> You got your answer and many other people who voted leave voted based on the above answer. So why can't you accept the answer instead of asking the same questions over and over again?


So, you want to damage the UK. You want to damage people's lives and what's more you celebrate the fact. Unable to provide any real advantages to leaving that's all you are left with.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So, you want to damage the UK. You want to damage people's lives and what's more you celebrate the fact. Unable to provide any real advantages to leaving that's all you are left with.


Please point out where it says if you vote leave in the referendum you have to validate and explain the reason why you voted leave? I do not remember this being on the ballot sheet.

Just accept the majority of the UK voted to leave the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

I don't think many voted remain because they were afraid, or if so it wouldn't be for themselves. Obviously there will be an economic hit for a while but, being optimistic, most people won't notice it, I think.

The ones who will suffer first are going to be those already on the edge. The ones who are barely managing will find themselves not managing. The bigger / longer the dip, the more will get pushed below the poverty line. 

But, hey, you don't win wars without some collateral damage, and that's all these people are.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Seriously, do you realise what you did there? I state nothing has progressed or changed in the last week and the thread is going round in circles. Your response is a clipping from 2016!!
> 
> You have to admit that's actually quite funny


Of course I do  Why do you think I said try 'starting' there?. But if you prefer me to supply you with some recent bad news just leave it with me & i'll get back to you after my tea 

Just because you may not have been noticeably affected doesn't mean _nothing has changed_ (now where have I heard that phrase before?)


----------



## Goblin

> Just accept the majority of the UK voted to leave the EU.


Oh I've accepted that a non-binding referendum had a slim majority vote to leave yet cannot justify any real reason to do so. A non-binding referendum where the "winning side" based it's arguments almost entirely on lies where the only reason given to vote leave boils down to "I wanted to" when confronted with facts. A non-binding referendum which the UK government has used as an excuse to cause damage to people's lives now and in the future.

Why accept leaving? Didn't you know a single vote does not force people to agree. People are allowed to push for change and even have a responsibility to get facts out. That's called democracy.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Oh I've accepted that a non-binding referendum had a slim majority vote to leave yet cannot justify any real reason to do so. A non-binding referendum where the "winning side" based it's arguments almost entirely on lies where the only reason given to vote leave boils down to "I wanted to" when confronted with facts. A non-binding referendum which the UK government has used as an excuse to cause damage to people's lives now and in the future.
> 
> Why accept leaving? Didn't you know a single vote does not force people to agree. People are allowed to push for change and even have a responsibility to get facts out. That's called democracy.


I cannot be bothered with answering seriously with you anymore as you still reject any answers people give you.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Most on the winning side didn't base there vote on the lies and instead laughed at them.


I forget.. "I wanted to" is a reason to vote to damage the country.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I forget.. "I wanted to" is a reason to vote to damage the country.


Oh this is a headache reading the whining you're doing. Seriously do you give anyone else you know such a hard time for expressing there opinion at the ballot box by casting a vote different from yours?


----------



## stockwellcat.

I read what @DT said and deleted this comment hence taking on board what @DT said.


----------



## Calvine

I just pm'd you a minute ago!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> I just pm'd you a minute ago!


I know  and I replied


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> I am fed up with this nonesense on this thread that is going around in circles. Remainers is you serious have problems remembering things read back through the thread instead of asking the same questions over and over. It gets repetitive and seriously annoying because you have already had the answers.
> 
> I will come back to this thread in 14 months time (October 2018), if it isn't closed by then, when we all know what the deal is going to be on offer. There isn't much else to say about the matter until then IMO.
> 
> @DT, @rona, @Calvine, @Elles, @Honeys mum, @Satori, @Dr Pepper and others I will see you all in different threads on the forum.


Stockwell , sometimes i guess we have to accept that there are some that will always have differing opinion to our own -nothing wrong with that, guess its,just life, but that said its not nice when these people continue to completely disrespect anyone elses views with their continued demands for facts, proof evidence blah blah blah, then to be told ,we voted as we did because :in their view; we were lied to , or we are naive, of we are uneducated is downright insulting. My advice to you put any such people on ignore, you have your right to your views irrespective of those views and we certainly owe no explanation as to why. we harbour such views.
Its no different from those peoole insisting we must like marmite when we dont!


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> that said its not nice when these people continue to completely disrespect anyone elses views with their continued demands for facts, proof evidence blah blah blah, then to be told ,we voted as we did because :in their view; we were lied to , or we are naive, of we are uneducated is downright insulting.


Even though you cannot provide any reason to vote leave other than those same lies. No advantages to leaving based on facts. Causing damage to the UK as "you want to". Says it all really.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Even though you cannot provide any reason to vote leave other than those same lies. No advantages to leaving based on facts. Causing damage to the UK as "you want to". Says it all really.


And that post you just quoted above says it all about you!
You are no doub t a little insignificant boring person who has no respect for anyone who doesn't share your views!


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> And that post you just quoted above says it all about you!
> You are no doub t a little insignificant boring person who has no respect for anyone who doesn't share your views!


To be fair I think it's simply a case of some people are frightened of change and others embrace it. We've been browbeaten into being the EU (which no one asked or voted for) and some can't see anything else will work.

Luckily there are those out there that see that there is a different way, it's these people that start businesses, take a chance, go against the "given" and make the world a better place.

Change is good, and since the year dot it's change that has made the world the way it is today rather than being stuck in the stone age.

Exciting times ahead.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair I think it's simply a case of some people are frightened of change and others embrace it. We've been browbeaten into being the EU (which no one asked or voted for) and some can't see anything else will work.
> 
> Luckily there are those out there that see that there is a different way, it's these people that start businesses, take a chance, go against the "given" and make the world a better place.
> 
> Change is good, and since the year dot it's change that has made the world the way it is today rather than being stuck in the stone age.
> 
> Exciting times ahead.


Yep  I started a business 28 years ago. I mentioned it earlier- it did much better when I started sourcing my products from the rest of the world rather then the EU irrespective of the tariffs.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Stockwell , sometimes i guess we have to accept that there are some that will always have differing opinion to our own -nothing wrong with that, guess its,just life, but that said its not nice when these people continue to completely disrespect anyone elses views with their continued demands for facts, proof evidence blah blah blah, then to be told ,we voted as we did because :in their view; we were lied to , or we are naive, of we are uneducated is downright insulting. My advice to you put any such people on ignore, you have your right to your views irrespective of those views and we certainly owe no explanation as to why. we harbour such views.
> Its no different from those peoole insisting we must like marmite when we dont!


Your advice is greatly appreciated.
Thank you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair I think it's simply a case of some people are frightened of change


But that doesn't solve the problems of certain people asking the same questions they have been asked for the last 13 months (since the referendum) and going around in circles like we owe them an explanation for the way each individual person that voted leave voted the way they did and they still won't accept the answers.

I accept the rest of what you have said and agree with you.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat said:


> But that doesn't solve the problems of certain people asking the same questions they have been asked for the last 13 months (since the referendum) and going around in like owe them an explanation for the way each individual person that voted leave voted the way they did and they still won't accept the answers.
> 
> I accept the rest of what you have said.


They are so s**t scared of change they can't accept anything other than the status-quo so everyone else is wrong. And with Brexit being a ongoing process they won't accept change can be good, or at least , until it's actually happened and the world doesn't end.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> They are so s**t scared of change they can't accept anything other than the status-quo so everyone else is wrong. And with Brexit being a ongoing process they won't accept change can be good, or at least not the end of the world, until it's actually happened.


So we have to put up with ear bending abuse and being told we are wrong for the rest of our lives over making an independent decision at a ballot box or like me making that decision a long time ago to vote leave if given the chance.

I wonder how those that voted not to join the EEC 44 years ago coped after the none binding referendum the UK had that led the UK into this club (because we didn't get a referendum to join the EU in 1993)? Would be interesting to know if they went on as much as the remainers? The same scenario would have applied regarding change.


----------



## Elles

Shame they cocked up, first with Cameron's resignation, then with a snap GE. It was a concern at the time. That Cameron's government wasn't the right one to lead us out, if we did vote Brexit and that it wasn't the right time for a referendum. Still, too late now. A week is a long time in politics and there's a lot longer than that left before we're out.

The Eu should have spent a few Euro encouraging businesses in Eastern Europe, instead of using their workforce to prop up the richer members, then maybe it wouldn't have happened.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat said:


> So we have to put up with ear bending abuse and being told we are wrong for the rest of our lives over making an independent decision at a ballot box or like me making that decision a long time ago to vote leave if given the chance.
> 
> I wonder how those that voted not to join the EEC 44 years ago coped after the none binding referendum the UK had that led the UK into this club (because we didn't get a referendum to join the EU in 1993)? Would be interesting to know if they went on as much as the remainers? The same scenario would have applied regarding change.


Nope, we can ignore them until something actually happens and they, or us, or some middle ground is decided upon. Like you I'm fed up arguing against their speculation.

Thing is forty four years ago no one voted for the EU we have today, so it wasn't such a contentious issue. It was purely a trade arrangement, which I'm sure we'd all vote for today.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> Nope, we can ignore them until something actually happens and they, or us, or some middle ground is decided upon. Like you I'm fed up arguing against their speculation.
> 
> Thing is forty four years ago no one voted for the EU we have today, so it wasn't such a contentious issue. It was purely a trade arrangement, which I'm sure we'd all vote for today.


Well after 24 years of being in the EU (1993 to 2017) and 20 years of being in the EEC (1973 to 1993), I am glad we are heading in the right direction at last. TIMO (That Is My Opinion) and I am entitled to it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Very quiet on here tonight from the other side. :Muted

It's nice to have an evening where everyone agrees with each other for a change


----------



## cheekyscrip

Not. Brexit is just as bad for Britain as expected.
Yes, our negotiators are bunch of dimwits.
Mostly clueless and unprepared.

All that damage just to stop EU nationals coming and UK pensioners going?
To replace EU workforce by non EU workforce?

To have the likes of Maybot, Bojo and Gove?
Such honest , trustworthy leaders...slightly prone to backstabbing, lying opportnists?
But they are British so that is all good?

I am sure that most of Brexit supporters on this thread can well afford to tighten their belts.
Do you care about those who cannot afford that luxury?


----------



## Elles

Shame Gibraltar can't have independence and stay in the Eu. Looks like you either become part of Spain, agree to joint sovereignty, or stay part of Britain and see what happens with Brexit. More choices than England has.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I cannot be bothered with answering seriously with you anymore as you still reject any answers people give you.


That's a bit unfair. You are suggesting people accept the referendum result.

Here's a question for you. Had the vote been 52% remain and 48%Leave would you have sat back and accepted it?

Nigel Farage said he wouldn't. Why should he, why should you?

For that matter, why should pro EU supporters give up? They won't.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair I think it's simply a case of some people are frightened of change and others embrace it. We've been browbeaten into being the EU (which no one asked or voted for) and some can't see anything else will work.
> 
> Luckily there are those out there that see that there is a different way, *it's these people that start businesses*, take a chance, go against the "given" and make the world a better place.
> 
> Change is good, and since the year dot it's change that has made the world the way it is today rather than being stuck in the stone age.
> 
> Exciting times ahead.


One would expect most businesses to be supporting Brexit then.

Also, interestingly :

*"Immigrants far more likely to be entrepreneurial than British born"*

According to the Telegraph, but there are many corroborating reports.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...likely-to-be-entrepreneurial-than-british-bo/

But many people have now voted to restrict their numbers.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> It was purely a trade arrangement, *which I'm sure we'd all vote for today*.


Sorry, didn't mean to pick on you again, but if this is the case - and I think it is - why are we leaving the single market?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Here's a question for you. Had the vote been 52% remain and 48%Leave would you have sat back and accepted it?


 I will answer this. Yes I would have accepted the result and not acted the way you guys have. Why? Because right up until 5:30am of the morning of the referendum result it looked like the UK was staying in the EU. Then fate unexpectedly changed. Up until this point I thought to myself oh well never mind we lost the referendum life goes on (Even Farage thought the leavers had lost and went to bed at the hotel he was staying at I do believe and had to be woken up when the results changed) . See no one knew it was going to swing into the leave voters favour at all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> That's a bit unfair.


 What's unfair is you guys whining about it and going around in circles asking the same questions over and over again.



> are suggesting people accept the referendum result.


If you did you wouldn't be going on about it so much.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> What's unfair is you guys whining about it and going around in circles asking the same questions over and over again.
> 
> If you did you wouldn't be going on about it so much.


And all that for no reason...except our country getting poorer , with much less for those who need the most?

Stupid decision which badly affects life of many, while very few already privileged will gain?

Till your pension get 25% tax you will not realise how you have been duped?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Shame Gibraltar can't have independence and stay in the Eu. Looks like you either become part of Spain, agree to joint sovereignty, or stay part of Britain and see what happens with Brexit. More choices than England has.


Shame, because any deal with Spain will effectively finish our independence and economy, while Brexit is already putting people out of work and back to UK.


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> put any such people on ignore,


The fact is, @DT, the ones I have on ignore post so very often (the usual suspects, you know who they are!) that to put them on ignore is like removing pages from a book. So then there is a post from you or someone else and one has no idea what they are replying to so have to take a guess.This is why I have only posted on this thread once in many weeks. If it was just one of them who posted a couple of times a day...but they seem to live on the thread and for it.
The only people I have on ignore are the ones who have virtually taken over this thread.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Till your pension get 25% tax you will not realise how you have been duped?


My pensions was being taxed after the tax free amount of 25% before the referendum. Private pension rules and all that. I haven't been duped what-so-ever.

Did you know state pension is taxable as well? You have to declare it on a self assessment every year after you retire. Bet you did t know that?


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> in their view; we were lied to , or we are naive, of we are uneducated is downright insulting


So true . . . so very up themselves and patronising and yes, their comments are insulting; you hit the nail on the head there. This is why I have had them on ignore now for weeks.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> Even Farage thought the leavers had lost


He did: I remember him saying, 'It looks as tho' they've edged us'. Then there was a sudden swing.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Here's a question for you. Had the vote been 52% remain and 48%Leave would you have sat back and accepted it?


YES. I have friends of both opinions and we never even discuss it. And we don't insult each other because of our different opinions.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> If you did you wouldn't be going on about it so much.


Here we go again, being told, "We won, you lost, get over it".

Threads like this wouldn't have exceeded 500 pages if people didn't feel so strongly about it.

The more Brexiteers try to shut me up and tell me to "Believe in Britain" the stronger I am opposed.

I guess it's the same for you with vice versa.

The referendum has done nothing but divide the country in half.


----------



## Honeys mum

Goblin said:


> I forget.. "I wanted to" is a reason to vote to damage the country.


This country was damaged (as you put it), long before brexit happened.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> This country was damaged (as you put it), long before brexit happened.


Damaged! Just damaged? Severely fractured more like.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> My pensions was being taxed after the tax free amount of 25% before the referendum. Private pension rules and all that. I haven't been duped what-so-ever.
> 
> Did you know state pension is taxable as well? You have to declare it on a self assessment every year after you retire. Bet you did t know that?


Bet you do not know what I might know about the future of private pensions.....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Plus meat from China...


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Plus meat from China...
> View attachment 318727


Yes, just listening to that, very worrying xxx


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Damaged! Just damaged? Severely fractured more like.


Do you think that leaving the EU will improve or worsen the situation?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Arnie83

FYI

*Brexit: UK 'overwhelmingly reliant' on EU vets and abattoir workers*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40703369


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat said:


> Chlorine washed chicken.
> The press are making such a big deal out of this. Funny how Americans have been eating chlorine washed chicken without any problems. If you have been to America and eaten chicken from fast food restaurants you will have eaten chlorine washed chicken :Muted


and that makes it OK does it.

Out choice I'd never eat them thank you very much!!!


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to pick on you again, but if this is the case - and I think it is - why are we leaving the single market?


Because unfortunately the single market got swallowed into what the EU is today and isn't a separate entity. So leaving the EU means leaving the single market. A price the majority of voters thought a price worth paying.

To be fair, the single market should always have been seperated from the off as it's all we ever voted for in the first place.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> and that makes it OK does it.
> 
> Out choice I'd never eat them thank you very much!!!


Well at least now you will have a choice and badly treated animals won't have that label that hides a million sins. Produced in the EU


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Well at least now you will have a choice and badly treated animals won't have that label that hides a million sins. Produced in the EU


The only chickens I buy that are allowed to run free the woods, I'd never buy one of those cheap, white looking things.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Because unfortunately the single market got swallowed into what the EU is today and isn't a separate entity. So leaving the EU means leaving the single market. A price the majority of voters thought a price worth paying.
> 
> To be fair, the single market should always have been seperated from the off as it's all we ever voted for in the first place.


That's certainly Corbyn's position. But the (unbiased) fact is that there are already 4 members of the single market that are not members of the EU, so it immediately falls down.

I wonder if, in the negotiations, we should be exploring the options of retaining single market membership whilst leaving the EU; not necessarily mirroring the arrangement of one of the other four, but seeking our own unique relationship.

It seems daft (or ideological) to state unequivocally that we are leaving the single market without even exploring the possibilities.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> That's certainly Corbyn's position. But the (unbiased) fact is that there are already 4 members of the single market that are not members of the EU, so it immediately falls down.
> 
> I wonder if, in the negotiations, we should be exploring the options of retaining single market membership whilst leaving the EU; not necessarily mirroring the arrangement of one of the other four, but seeking our own unique relationship.
> 
> It seems daft (or ideological) to state unequivocally that we are leaving the single market without even exploring the possibilities.


Well that's exactly why there are negotiations on the single market and everything else.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat said:


> but aren't being helped by remainers whining all the time.


Totally agree SWC, heres one example that they got it wrong.

IMF Admit They Lied About Alleged Brexit Dangers - Your News Wire


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Well that's exactly why there are negotiations on the single market and everything else.


But, starting with Theresa May's 17th January speech she & Davis have repeatedly made it perfectly clear that we are leaving the single market. It isn't up for negotiation.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> From my understanding of the Single Market and Customs Union *we cannot stay in them if we are to be a country outside of the EU. The EU have told the UK repeatedly that if we leave the EU we cannot stay in the Single Market as it goes hand in hand with being a member of the EU.* We have to leave the Customs Union so we can make our own trade deals. Yes we can pay for access to the Single Market if the EU allow us to but then we'd have to be governed by the ECJ which is something we want to leave from what I understand.
> 
> There is talk of a transitional deal for a set number of years which would mean we'd probably stay in these until the transitional period ends. Doing this would probably stop the UK from being able to forge new trade deals as we'll be governed by ECJ rules and laws during the transitional period.
> 
> We do stay in the Single Market and Customs Union until the day we Brexit so nothing changes until that day.
> 
> We are going to have to leave this up to the UK and EU negotiators to thrash out during the negotiations.


As I said in the post to which you are replying, 4 countries are already members of the single market but not members of the EU. It is perfectly possible to leave the EU and remain a member of the single market.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> But, starting with Theresa May's 17th January speech she & Davis have repeatedly made it perfectly clear that we are leaving the single market. It isn't up for negotiation.


What game are you playing because frankly it's pathetic?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Totally agree SWC, heres one example that they got it wrong.
> 
> IMF Admit They Lied About Alleged Brexit Dangers - Your News Wire


Publications that print headlines like that really should be prosecuted. Hopefully any rational person would not give it any credence whatsoever.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> Only if we retain the four freedoms of movement which means the UK won't be able to control immigration and would be tied to the ECJ. Which I doubt will be acceptable as it would be considered as a U-turn and a broken promise from by Government by Brexitiers. But let's see what the negotiators come up with during the negotiations.


There are reports that freedom of movement could be subject to conditional amendment, and it would be great if, as you suggest, we could see what might come out of negotiations on the subject.

As it stands, though, we aren't even going to ask the question because of the edict that 'We are going to leave the single market'. The EU certainly aren't going to offer concessions to keep us inside it unless we actually ask!


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> What game are you playing because frankly it's pathetic?


In what way do you consider it pathetic?

Have I said anything which is factually incorrect?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat said:


> I doubt that the freedom of movement would be amended as we voted to end the freedom of movement even Jeremy Corbyn's has recognised this.


I don't want to be a pedant, but no we didn't. On my ballot paper 'Leave' was undefined. Any interpretation put on it is purely personal.



stockwellcat said:


> Leave means leaving everything not this bit and that bit that we don't like. So in not adhering to the 4 freedoms of movement we won't have access to the Single Market as it rules are to accept all four freedoms of movement to have access to the Single Market. We won't be staying in via the back door either to be governed by ECJ rules and laws.


Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein are not in the EU but are members of the single market, so it is possible to Leave the EU and not the single market. Sorry, again, to be pedantic, but that really is a fact, regardless of how 'pathetic' some seem to consider it.



stockwellcat said:


> The negotiations taking place at the moment are only to determine how we leave the EU. The trade deal will come later on (perhaps when the UK is out of the EU) if the UK does not crash out of the EU first which is still an option on the table.


Now that I agree with. Currently we are discussing how we leave the EU. If we also leave the single market at the same time then we will have to negotiate some sort of trade deal.

But this little round of discussion (until it descended to insult) started because DrP said we would all vote for a trading relationship, with which I agree. It seems to me we are closing the door on the possibilities which might be available by which we can have a great trading relationship inside the single market, but outside the EU.


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Totally agree SWC, heres one example that they got it wrong.
> 
> IMF Admit They Lied About Alleged Brexit Dangers - Your News Wire


Its a fake news website HM x http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/YourNewsWire

*YourNewsWire* (styled as *YourNewsWire.com*[1]) is an Los Angeles-based clickbait fake news website known for disseminating conspiracy theories and misleading information, contrary to its claimed motto ("News. Truth. Unfiltered").[1]


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Threads like this wouldn't have exceeded 500 pages if people didn't feel so strongly about it.


It's gone on for so long because people keep repeating the same old crap.



KittenKong said:


> Here we go again, being told, "We won, you lost, get over it".


I don't believe anyone said that, but the remainers on PH do seem pretty paranoid.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Leave means leaving everything not this bit and that bit that we don't like.





> The negotiations taking place at the moment are only to determine how we leave the EU.


Negotiations are also about how much we can retain in an attempt to minimise the negative impact of leaving. You know little bits like the NI/Irish border, things like euratom, security arrangements, health, access to the European Medicines Agency etc etc. In other words...








Of course the option is No deal.The institute for government has actually highlighted a key point there..Before it could begin trading on WTO rules, the UK would need to establish its new status within the organisation, requiring agreement from all WTO members. This despite being an existing member outside of the EU. The WTO's Director General has said that agreeing the UK's position in the WTO "would likely take years". We may be a member already, it does not mean it's simple and immediate.

Edit: Here's an interesting bit showing what the WTO's Director General stated:


> Every member of the WTO has a contract with all the other 163 members. Now once the UK leaves the EU, that contract will have to be put to the members again. The U.K. and the EU are both going to have to come to members and say "After our split, these are the terms of the contract, these are my commitments that apply to other WTO members.". The UK and the EU will do that. Other WTO members at that point in time and not before - not while negotiations are on-going between the two - at that point in time, WTO members will look at what's been proposed to them and they will react to that. And they may say: "That's perfect! Thank you very much. All done deal". Or they may say: "Hold on".


People complain about 27 countries having to agree anything. What do you think 163 are going to be like?


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> It's gone on for so long because people keep repeating the same old crap.


Some of the repetition occurs, I think, because facts are repeatedly disputed, and are still germane to the ongoing situation.

As, for example, above with the oft-repeated assertion that you can't be a member of the single market without being a member of the EU.

You can, of course - 4 already countries are - and if public opinion is at any point going to be important again, then it is surely right to ensure that they know the facts.


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> It's gone on for so long because people keep repeating the same old crap.


Facts are annoying aren't they.


----------



## Elles

From what I've read, we can only stay in the single market if we also accept freedom of movement. It means all 4 freedoms, not just trade. It's why Jeremy wants out of the single market and to negotiate a separate trade deal. It's what he means when he says we can't stay in the single market.

I'm warming to Jeremy.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> From what I've read, we can only stay in the single market if we also accept freedom of movement. It means all 4 freedoms, not just trade.


That is certainly the official position. The unofficial one suggests a ***** of light that might be exploited were we to pursue it. Whether we will or not is moot.



Elles said:


> It's why Jeremy wants out of the single market and to negotiate a separate trade deal. It's what he means when he says we can't stay in the single market.
> 
> I'm warming to Jeremy.


Call me a cynic, but I think Corbyn's opposition to single market membership stems more from the restrictions it would put on his plans for state intervention were he ever to become PM.

A number of his MPs (e.g. Chuka Umunna) have been quick to point out that he is wrong in thinking you have to be in the EU in order to be a member of the single market.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> A number of his MPs (e.g. Chuka Umunna) have been quick to point out that he is wrong in thinking you have to be in the EU in order to be a member of the single market.


He's clarified since that he was talking about the 4 freedoms part of the Eu. That to stay in the single market, would mean accepting the same things about the Eu that gave rise to the vote to leave, specifically free movement of labour. Countries that are in the single market, but outside of the Eu still have to comply. Corbyn supports leaving the Eu and arranging a separate trade deal. Other countries have a similar deal. Turkey?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> This country was damaged (as you put it), long before brexit happened.


It was. Wasn't the EU who damaged it though they were made a scapegoat...

I wonder who they'll blame once the UK has left.....


----------



## Honeys mum

Arnie83 said:


> Hopefully any rational person would not give it any credence whatsoever.


Whatever, at least I have never been rude to anyone on PF.


----------



## Honeys mum

noushka05 said:


> Its a fake news website HM x http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/YourNewsWire


Thanks nosh, it said truth at the top, and me being me believed it.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> I was answering your question and you come back with this response. Why ask the question then if you are going to react so childishly? Remember I was answering your question and my response wasn't we won. Where did I say that in response to your question? :Banghead
> 
> Nobody has told you to shut you, you jump on Brexitiers responses after you ask them questions example above and then start accusing us of rubbish.


Reading between the lines amounts to the same thing. No need to get personal for refusing to adapt to your way of thinking.

Not one of you have announced anything remotely positive about leaving the EU.

That's my opinion. Get over it.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Whatever, at least I have never been rude to anyone on PF.


Quite right too. Me neither; it is unnecessary and gets in the way of discussion.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Just a few critical points Id like to make and I am not having a go or intend in having a debate over this...
> There is nothing to negotiate with WTO as everything is already set and the countries in WTO don't get a say on set tariffs charged and WTO rules.


Maybe you didn't recognise who the person stating the potential issues was.. The WTO's Director General. Think he knows something about his own organisation and how it works.

Oh by the way. when trying to argue about countries and numbers and how it is less than I stated, your link is 4 years out of date


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> The link is from the WTO themselves.


Hint: look at the first page.. Dated March 2013. Just as information is attached to a site does not mean it's information is current does it.


----------



## Arnie83

An interesting article illustrating the point of recent discussion:

by *Owen Tudor; head of EU and international relations at the TUC.*

*TUC: Staying in the single market doesn't mean complete freedom of movement*

Including existing available measures to restrict immigration, such as:


Restricting public sector jobs to nationals only
Requiring migrants planning to stay longer than a few months to register upon entry with the relevant local authority
Requiring all vacancies in sectors where unemployment is above average to be published with the government's own employment service, with applications allowed only from those unemployed people already registered with the service
Negotiating arrangements to limit the number of European Economic Area nationals entering the country (the equivalent of limiting the number of national insurance numbers issued)


----------



## kimthecat

Some good news 

https://www.ft.com/content/1f699b52-e639-38ae-9a3d-4fdaa113327b

BMW will build the fully electric version of the Mini in the UK, despite previously warning it would make the car overseas because of the uncertainty created by Britain's departure from the EU. The electric motors and batteries for the car will be made at BMW plants in Germany and shipped to the UK.


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> Some good news
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/1f699b52-e639-38ae-9a3d-4fdaa113327b
> 
> BMW will build the fully electric version of the Mini in the UK, despite previously warning it would make the car overseas because of the uncertainty created by Britain's departure from the EU. The electric motors and batteries for the car will be made at BMW plants in Germany and shipped to the UK.


Nah! That will be fake news, nothing positive will happen now we are in the jaws of brexit.


----------



## Elles

I thought the Eu had already said that if we want to stay in the single market, we can't cherry pick and will have to allow freedom of movement. Or was that just posturing and fake news?


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> @DT I have just done what you suggested last night. Wow half the comments have disappeared on this thread. All I can see now is leave supporters comments  That's better.


Wish I had the strength to do that stockwell  but im a weirdo​


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> Nah! That will be fake news, nothing positive will happen now we are in the jaws of brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Some good news
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/1f699b52-e639-38ae-9a3d-4fdaa113327b
> 
> BMW will build the fully electric version of the Mini in the UK, despite previously warning it would make the car overseas because of the uncertainty created by Britain's departure from the EU. The electric motors and batteries for the car will be made at BMW plants in Germany and shipped to the UK.


It's an interesting one isn't it. I wonder what has changed their mind - perhaps they have been reassured that there will be no import duty on vehicle components from the EU, because otherwise they seem to be taking something of a gamble on the negotiated trade deal.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> It's an interesting one isn't it. I wonder what has changed their mind - perhaps they have been reassured that there will be no import duty on vehicle components from the EU, because otherwise they seem to be taking something of a gamble on the negotiated trade deal.


 I expect so.


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> It's an interesting one isn't it. I wonder what has changed their mind - perhaps they have been reassured that there will be no import duty on vehicle components from the EU, because otherwise they seem to be taking something of a gamble on the negotiated trade deal.


Interesting indeed, maybe, just maybe its an indication that those who fear have nothing to fear. Apart that is from the total required for the divorce settlement.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> It was. Wasn't the EU who damaged it though they were made a scapegoat...
> 
> I wonder who they'll blame once the UK has left.....


Probably you and your cronies kittenkong

Lighten up it was a joke


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> Whatever, at least I have never been rude to anyone on PF.


Me neither apart from one or two

Hundred


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.newstatesman.com/2017/07...uded-labour-should-keep-all-options-table?amp

Good article indeed. Can't accuse me of left wing bias as much as I detest the far right!


----------



## Arnie83

More news from a Donny Trump tweet this morning ...

"Working on major Trade Deal with the United Kingdom. Could be very big & exciting. JOBS! The E.U. is very protectionist with the U.S. STOP!"

Whether it's _good_ news or not rather depends on what you think of Trump, and his understanding of the situation.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> More news from a Donny Trump tweet this morning ...
> 
> "Working on major Trade Deal with the United Kingdom. Could be very big & exciting. JOBS! The E.U. is very protectionist with the U.S. STOP!"
> 
> Whether it's _good_ news or not rather depends on what you think of Trump, and his understanding of the situation.


Well Mr Trump is a businessman before a politician so I'd go with his thoughts on the subject.

He's also right about the EU being protectionist, mind you that's what the EU is all about so no great revelation there!

EDIT
Oh but wait, there have been members on this Pet Forum saying nothing can be negotiated until we leave the EU. Someone should tell that to the USA and UK government's.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Well Mr Trump is a businessman before a politician so I'd go with his thoughts on the subject.
> 
> He's also right about the EU being protectionist, mind you that's what the EU is all about so no great revelation there!
> 
> EDIT
> *Oh but wait, there have been members on this Pet Forum saying nothing can be negotiated until we leave the EU. Someone should tell that to the USA and UK government's*.


I think that view goes even further up the hierarchy than PF. We can talk about things we might talk about, but we can't hold detailed discussions, let alone get an agreement ready, even if we had negotiators to spare. I wouldn't get too excited about a Donny tweet at this stage!


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I think that view goes even further up the hierarchy than PF. We can talk about things we might talk about, but we can't hold detailed discussions, let alone get an agreement ready, even if we had negotiators to spare. I wouldn't get too excited about a Donny tweet at this stage!


Na, we can discuss whatever we like now. That's what article 50 is all about - leaving. We just can't sign anything yet. It's more business than economics so probably outside your field of expertise. The proof is in what is actually happening.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Na, we can discuss whatever we like now. That's what article 50 is all about - leaving. We just can't sign anything yet. It's more business than economics so probably outside your field of expertise. The proof is in what is actually happening.


If you like, though I do research things quite carefully before I post them.

E.g. The government's white paper on Brexit states

"While we cannot agree new trade deals until after we have left the EU, there is much that we can do to prepare and to achieve now, while respecting our obligations as members of the EU. "​
Regarding those obligations, the EU is quite firm

"It's absolutely clear on the EU side that as long as a country is a member state of the EU, which is something the UK is at the moment, there are no negotiations bilaterally on any trade agreement with third parties. This is in the treaties and this is valid for all member states as long as they remain member states, until the very last day." (EU foreign affairs commissioner Federica Mogherini)​
So it might not be a brilliant idea anyway, given that we have to negotiate a good deal with the EU27.

And as for "what is actually happening" Fox is in the US now, having talks, as reported by CNBC yesterday ...

"Though the U.K cannot formally negotiate independent trade deals until it leaves the EU, it is allowed to prepare for them by holding discussions with current European trade partners"​
So, like I said we can talk about stuff, but we can't undertake detailed negotiations. Feel free to disagree, but your disagreement will be with the UK govt and the EU, not with me. Their field of expertise is wider, even, than mine.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> If you like, though I do research things quite carefully before I post them.
> 
> E.g. The government's white paper on Brexit states
> 
> "While we cannot agree new trade deals until after we have left the EU, there is much that we can do to prepare and to achieve now, while respecting our obligations as members of the EU. "​
> Regarding those obligations, the EU is quite firm
> 
> "It's absolutely clear on the EU side that as long as a country is a member state of the EU, which is something the UK is at the moment, there are no negotiations bilaterally on any trade agreement with third parties. This is in the treaties and this is valid for all member states as long as they remain member states, until the very last day." (EU foreign affairs commissioner Federica Mogherini)​
> So it might not be a brilliant idea anyway, given that we have to negotiate a good deal with the EU27.
> 
> And as for "what is actually happening" Fox is in the US now, having talks, as reported by CNBC yesterday ...
> 
> "Though the U.K cannot formally negotiate independent trade deals until it leaves the EU, it is allowed to prepare for them by holding discussions with current European trade partners"​
> So, like I said we can talk about stuff, but we can't undertake detailed negotiations. Feel free to disagree, but your disagreement will be with the UK govt and the EU, not with me. Their field of expertise is wider, even, than mine.


So once again you actually agree but because it proves you were wrong you try and turn it around to make it look you you were always right.

There's more to rudeness that a direct insult


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> So once again you actually agree but because it proves you were wrong you try and turn it around to make it look you you were always right.
> 
> There's more to rudeness that a direct insult


If you like.

Except, what you said, and what I disagreed with was



Dr Pepper said:


> Na, we can discuss whatever we like now.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> If you like.
> 
> Except, what you said, and what I disagreed with was


You claim to be a writer. As such you should know the difference between "discuss" and "agree".

We can discuss whatever we like with whomever we like.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> That's my opinion. Get over it.


Hang on: aren't you the one who is constantly saying you are pi**ed with Leavers saying ''You lost, get over it''? But it's OK for you to say it.


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> jaws of brexit.


AKA 'The Valley Of Death'.


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> Quite right too. Me neither; it is unnecessary and gets in the way of discussion.


Your posts are always very sensible and well-researched and you never sink to personal insults or repeat the same facts with different words. I may not always agree with them but I have to say that I do always respect them and your opinions. 
ETA: Your cat looks nice too!:Cat


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Hang on: aren't you the one who is constantly saying you are pi**ed with Leavers saying ''You lost, get over it''? But it's OK for you to say it.


I said words to the effect of that, not those actual words although I have seen posts with those actual words elsewhere.

I meant to say the fantasy of the entire UK uniting behind complete isolation from the rest of Europe by many Brexiteers will never happen.

I said Brexiteers should get over that in much the same way as we're frequently told to get over them winning the referendum.

No, it's not OK for me to say that. I agree.

I shouldn't need to.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> You claim to be a writer. As such you should know the difference between "discuss" and "agree".
> 
> We can discuss whatever we like with whomever we like.


Indeed. So long as those 'discussions' don't include 'detailed negotiations' of the trade deal.

The notion that we can be ready to sign and implement previously discussed trade deals on 20th March 2019 is a fallacy.

That's my lot with you on this particular issueI'm afraid. Frankly, I'm fed up both with banging my head against the wall and the derogatory personal comments in so many posts.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> Your posts are always very sensible and well-researched and you never sink to personal insults or repeat the same facts with different words. I may not always agree with them but I have to say that I do always respect them and your opinions.
> ETA: Your cat looks nice too!:Cat


Thank you. It's an internet forum on a vitally important subject. The more we all learn about it - including me - the better we may be able to contribute to Brexit's successful implementation should we get the chance.

And Rosie is absolutely gorgeous, except when she's sitting by the side of the bed at 4.45 _every morning_ yelling at me to get up and see to whatever spurious requirements have occurred to her!


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Reading between the lines amounts to the same thing. No need to get personal for refusing to adapt to your way of thinking.
> 
> Not one of you have announced anything remotely positive about leaving the EU.
> 
> That's my opinion. Get over it.


You forgot curly cucumbers and straight bananas!

That is if we have someone to pick the former and afford to import the latter...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Oops...someone else thinks our negotiators are dimwits....but he is just an expert....


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> I have just looked up Sir Steve Bullock MP's profile and he never was a negotiator for the UK-EU. He's mayor of Lewisham. He's not even listed on Parliaments website.


More research needed then. A name may relate to more than one person. Hint.. try @GuitarMoog on twitter in relation to the SNP. No idea if he is an MP, doesn't need to be to be a negotiator.



> I think this article is fake news and has circulated across the press.


Or you made a simple/easy mistake


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat said:


> Well he seems very immature to say the least calling MP's Morons considering these are the people he represented as a negotiator. Oh I've dug deep on him and I think he's a fake. Yes I have searched into @GuitarMoog and his website which all seem to have sprung into existence around the time of the referendum.
> 
> Sir Steve Bullock is a labour MP and Mayor of Lewisham and never been a negotiator.
> 
> Prove this Steve Bullock is real and not just some person moaning? Is there record of him being a negotiator in Brussels because I cannot find a record of him over here being such and I am digging deep.
> 
> If there is a real record of him being a a real negotiator for the UK I will admit I am wrong if you can prove it. But all I am finding to be real is Sir Steve Bullock Mayor of Lewisham.


Who said he was a negotiator? It was said he worked in UK Representation in to the EU.
Read again:








Please, before posting.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> If he was a negotiator as he claims then why on his blog here is he calling MP's who he was representing in Brussels morons? The blog post is right down the bottom dated 2nd February 2017 and starts:
> 
> and then he proceeds to use foul language. This is not the way a diplomat of any kind or forma diplomat behaves regardless of their opinion.


Maybe it's because they are acting like morons. Not as though he is actually involved in the process is it so he can say what he thinks as can any other member of the public.

So what did this Steve Bullock actually recently say.. It's interesting and accurate:

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/to-this-former-eu-negotiator-the-uks-chance-of-a-good-brexit-deal-looks-slim/

It's also interesting to look back at May's leadership methodology, it's one of dictating not negotiation. Hardly conducive towards a successful negotiation process.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Elles

He was on newsnight recently. Looks like he's in Brussels.


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Well in all honesty can you see why I questioned this because he is using alot and I mean alot of foul language in his blogs towards the UK's MP's and Government whom he claims he represented as a negotiator?


When working I know plenty of people who are totally different to when in private life. Doesn't mean they cannot do their job. You notice Elles video actually is yet another occasion where it's shown he has been an EU negotiator. So your claim he's fake is false.



stockwellcat said:


> Apparently there was outcry from people reading his blog website over this but he refused to retract what he said.
> But when all this started May wasn't in charge Cameron was and the language back then was terrible.


Funny that you are avoiding commenting on what he is currently saying. I see no bad language in it not that bad language would invalidate what he is saying.


----------



## cheekyscrip

@stockwellcat apologies.
I read the text, you did the headlines. Perfect harmony for once!
Too much sun today...
This is for your bedtime story:


----------



## rona

The guy is an agitator, much like many on this forum


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> The guy is an agitator, much like many on this forum


So tell me, what do you not agree with the link article posted?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> All I am going to say @Goblin is this:
> 
> He *was* a negotiator (past tense), he no longer is a negotiator or representative of the UK or a member UKREP. So what does that make him right now? That's right a member of the public, a nobody in the Brexit process. He is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. Doesn't make him an expert as well as he is no longer involved in representing the UK as a negotiator. In fact he has turned his back on the UK and is now a member of the Belgium where he now lives. He mentioned to the like in his blog rants. As @rona said he is an agitator.
> 
> The key word is *was *which I highlighted twice for you in bold just in case you missed it and was is a past tense word meaning it has already happened.


A bit like tony blair then


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> All I am going to say @Goblin is this:
> 
> He *was* a negotiator (past tense), he no longer is a negotiator or representative of the UK or a member UKREP. So what does that make him right now?


Someone who is used to negotiating within the EU perhaps. Someone who actually knows how the process of negotiation works and how to do it sucessfully. I used to be a software engineer and a consultant. Just as I haven't done it for a while doesn't mean I am no longer unable to do so. Neither does it mean that I don't know what I am talking about if you want to discuss it.

Notice you make this all about him and try to discredit him rather than actually comment about the piece in question and what he wrote where he states the confrontational stance of the UK government, playing to the UK audience rather than concentrating on getting a good deal is going to fail. It's not a successful strategy to get a good deal.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Someone who is used to negotiating within the EU perhaps. Someone who actually knows how the process of negotiation works and how to do it sucessfully. I used to be a software engineer and a consultant. Just as I haven't done it for a while doesn't mean I am no longer unable to do so. Neither does it mean that I don't know what I am talking about if you want to discuss it.


NiGEL FARAGE


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> One last thing for tonight.
> 
> Remainers apart from the whining, you still haven't convinced me to change my mind like Tony Blair ordered all remainers to do with Brexitiers. So I am still 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 out (solid leave voter) and would voted the same way again over and over again no matter how much you go around in circles on the subject.
> 
> Anyhow I am knackered so see you all virtually tomorrow on here.


Duh! You lightweight! Im still 100


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat said:


> Light weight my numbers exceed 100 and a thousand and a million and a billion and a trillion (I think)


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## samuelsmiles

cheekyscrip said:


> @stockwellcat apologies.
> I read the text, you did the headlines. Perfect harmony for once!
> Too much sun today...
> This is for your bedtime story:
> View attachment 318812
> View attachment 318813
> View attachment 318813
> View attachment 318812


The Guardian is a strange paper. 

It headlines, "The UK is Becoming the Sick Man of Europe" despite figures suggesting something very different. When I need a good giggle in the morning, I now have a choice of The Canary or The Guardian.
*
UK manufacturing output strongest since 1995*


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Seriously, do you realise what you did there? I state nothing has progressed or changed in the last week and the thread is going round in circles. Your response is a clipping from 2016!!
> 
> You have to admit that's actually quite funny





noushka05 said:


> Of course I do  Why do you think I said try 'starting' there?. But if you prefer me to supply you with some recent bad news just leave it with me & i'll get back to you after my tea
> 
> Just because you may not have been noticeably affected doesn't mean _nothing has changed_ (now where have I heard that phrase before?)


Got carried away elsewhere so sorry for the late response. If you want more recent bad news - (& this is just thee tip of a very large iceberg)

The disruption, the cost, the loss & for what gain @Dr Pepper ? So we can 'take back control'?

The huge & growing recruitment crisis in the NHS exacerbated by the collapse in nurses coming from the EU since the brexit vote.










*Up to 45,000 Britons who live and pay tax in Britain but work in mainland **Europe** could lose their jobs under Theresa May's proposals for EU citizens in the UK, it has emerged*. - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...bs-under-uk-proposal-eu-citizens-brexit#img-1

*Tory MPs call for action to avert post-Brexit ports gridlock - *https://www.theguardian.com/politic...or-action-to-avert-post-brexit-ports-gridlock










Medicines. Could those licensed here continue to be sold in the EU? "This will take time and investment."














































Theresa May is warned today that opening the door to low-quality food from the United States after Brexit could spell disaster for both British farmers and animal protection.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer



Honeys mum said:


> Thanks nosh, it said truth at the top, and me being me believed it.


No worries HM  x


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## noushka05

This is brilliant by Robert Harris, summing up the nations plight.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Male police officer (close friend of mine) - Voted leave because he *felt* that the EU is too bloated.
> 
> Female nurse said she *felt* the UK does not get enough say in the EU and leaving would help us have our own say on issues as the UK would be in control of these things.
> 
> Male University Lecturer - voted leave because he *felt* the urge to as he didn't *feel *he trusts the leaders in the EU.
> 
> Male Pub Owner - the EU are surpressing the UK's potential in the world.
> 
> Female City Worker - *feels *we'd be better off out of the EU standing on our own two feet in the world and *feels* we could do better without the EU.
> 
> Male Market Stall Holder From Borough Market - We never got a vote to join the EU in 1993 and therefore voted this way as this isbwhat he would have done if we had a vote back then.
> 
> Me - I said I'd always vote to leave so did


Yep. Kinda confirms that brexit was never about facts and evidence. It was about *feelings.*


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Male police officer (close friend of mine) - Voted leave because he felt that the EU is too bloated.
> 
> Female nurse said she felt the UK does not get enough say in the EU and leaving would help us have our own say on issues as the UK would be in control of these things.
> Male University Lecturer - voted leave because he felt the urge to as he didn't feel he trusts the leaders in the EU.
> Male Pub Owner - the EU are surpressing the UK's potential in the world.
> Female City Worker - feels we'd be better off out of the EU standing on our own two feet in the world and feels we could do better without the EU.
> Male Market Stall Holder From Borough Market - We never got a vote to join the EU in 1993 and therefore voted this way as this isbwhat he would have done if we had a vote back then.
> Me - I said I'd always vote to leave so did.
> As you can see none of these replies reflect remotely on any of the lies published on TV, in the newspapers or on the radio during the referendum campaign.


So, a selected few, yet all based on feelings, the foundation of which are lies, other than you who simply decided. Not one thing factual given. Says it all. "Take back control" by the way was the leave motto and false.



> As things have settled to an extent remainers have gone on and on and on revisiting the same things they spoke about before the referendum. Don't you think it is you guys that are causing the divisions online, in the street and in society in the UK? Your cause is becoming more and more desperate and the accusations are rediculous in the hope of changing leave voters decisions. It isn't going to happen.


Nope, when you can justify your actions based on facts rather than "I wanted to". Plenty of leave voters changed their minds and regretted the decision to vote leave.. Google statistics after the referendum "What is the EU" from the UK shows people didn't have a clue what they were voting for. How many voted for a hard brexit?



> We are now all going to have to wait to see if we get a separation deal with the EU and what this will be. There is no need to be panicking at this stage as nothing has been agreed to or agreement made. So anything else beyond these facts is speculation so should be ignored.


Nobody is panicking, people are simply stating facts that the UK is worse off than within the EU. Don't need to agree anything in negotiations to know the UK is worse off no matter what the result. As it is the government is totally messing it up with their strategy and bluster.Centre for Economic Performance at the London School of Economics: a reversion to WTO terms, would cut trade by 40% over ten years and reduce annual income per person by 2.6%. A softer version like the Norwegian model would cut trade by 20-25% and reduce annual incomes by 1.3%. That's static effects. Now I wonder if you can produce anything other than fantasy which shows occasions where the UK actually benefits? We'll ignore things like having to fund and duplicate things like euratom...



> You'll be glad to know I have finished this post now and this thread.


What again... lost count of the times you've left as you cannot provide facts justifying leaving.


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles said:


> The Guardian is a strange paper.
> 
> It headlines, "The UK is Becoming the Sick Man of Europe" despite figures suggesting something very different. When I need a good giggle in the morning, I now have a choice of The Canary or The Guardian.
> *
> UK manufacturing output strongest since 1995*


At last, a more factual link to a fairly unbiased site 

I've looked through his back catalogue of articles and the vast majority are quite positive, but he hasn't shied away from the problems we may face due to Brexit, so I think he's quite balanced in his reporting


----------



## noushka05

*As a British EU negotiator, I can tell you that Brexit is going to be far worse than anyone could have guessed*
The Government keeps saying it 'didn't realise' the problems, but they had the experts at Whitehall - they just refused to listen to them. Now we're facing a breakdown in airline safety, medicine, animal welfare, security, international aid and so much more
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...heresa-may-worse-anyone-guessed-a7858586.html


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Yep. Kinda confirms that brexit was never about facts and evidence. It was about *feelings.*
> View attachment 318853


Ya spotted that too then, Noush'.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> The Guardian is a strange paper.
> 
> It headlines, "The UK is Becoming the Sick Man of Europe" despite figures suggesting something very different. When I need a good giggle in the morning, I now have a choice of The Canary or The Guardian.
> *
> UK manufacturing output strongest since 1995*





rona said:


> At last, a more factual link to a fairly unbiased site
> 
> I've looked through his back catalogue of articles and the vast majority are quite positive, but he hasn't shied away from the problems we may face due to Brexit, so I think he's quite balanced in his reporting


The weak £ has boosted manufacturing output.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Ya spotted that too then, Noush'.


I was on it like a hawk!:Hilarious


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> I was on it like a hawk!:Hilarious


See, that's the difference tween you and I Noush'; the refinement of genus.

You have eyes like a hawk

and me

The eyes of a sh1thouse rat.:Shy


----------



## Vesela Georgieva

stockwellcat said:


> Right this morning I thought I'd be sensible and try and put this to bed once and for all and be absolutely clear for the remainers.
> 
> Before and since the Referendum remainers have been constantly asking why people voted leave. I for the life of me do not remember seeing on the ballot sheet anything saying that you had to explain yourself if you vote leave. Any way I have spoken within circles of people I know (friends) and have complied some reasons for you from people that have standings in society in my local area, I am not going to mention any names:
> 
> Male police officer (close friend of mine) - Voted leave because he felt that the EU is too bloated.
> Female nurse said she felt the UK does not get enough say in the EU and leaving would help us have our own say on issues as the UK would be in control of these things.
> Male University Lecturer - voted leave because he felt the urge to as he didn't feel he trusts the leaders in the EU.
> Male Pub Owner - the EU are surpressing the UK's potential in the world.
> Female City Worker - feels we'd be better off out of the EU standing on our own two feet in the world and feels we could do better without the EU.
> Male Market Stall Holder From Borough Market - We never got a vote to join the EU in 1993 and therefore voted this way as this isbwhat he would have done if we had a vote back then.
> Me - I said I'd always vote to leave so did.
> As you can see none of these replies reflect remotely on any of the lies published on TV, in the newspapers or on the radio during the referendum campaign. They are people's individual opinions of friends of mine. Everyone has different reasons for voting the way they voted and would vote the same way again.
> 
> Now moving on from this.
> As a whole the United Kingdom voted to leave the EU regardless of the slim majority, the UK still voted leave. Leave voters didn't think that leave would win and where shocked when the results swung around in there favour at around 5:30am on the 24th June 2016. Up until that point we was going to remain in the EU and had lost all hope of winning. Would we have kicked off like you guys have? No is the answer in my opinion (feel free to add you comment on this question Brexitiers).
> 
> As things have settled to an extent remainers have gone on and on and on revisiting the same things they spoke about before the referendum. Don't you think it is you guys that are causing the divisions online, in the street and in society in the UK? Your cause is becoming more and more desperate and the accusations are rediculous in the hope of changing leave voters decisions. It isn't going to happen.
> 
> I wish I had a time machine like the remainers claim to have and I would go back in time to see how those that voted not to join the EEC reacted. Now moving onto the present as a result of the referendum being upheld by the overwhelming majority of MP's in Parliament the UK is negotiating with the EU on a separation deal from the EU. Anything else at this stage is just speculation from remainers as no agreement has been made and the negotiators are doing what people do in negotiations and that is finding common ground to continue negotiating. That's how negotiations work. There is no point in panicking about a future that is not set yet. All those sleepless nights you must be having worrying about Brexit are unnecessary as your worries are you necessary as well.
> 
> There was a referendum campaign.
> The Referendum happened.
> There was a result.
> The result was upheld by an overwhelming majority and article 50 triggered.
> Negotiations are now taking place in the EU only about the UK's separation deal from the UK and nothing else at this stage.
> Dr Laim Fox MP is seeing what a trade deal is going to look like from the USA by opening a trade working group like he has done with Australia (October 2016) and is intending to do with New Zealand and many other countries. That's his job to do this. All that has happened so far is he has had a few discussions with our American counterparts, that is all.
> We are now all going to have to wait to see if we get a separation deal with the EU and what this will be. There is no need to be panicking at this stage as nothing has been agreed to or agreement made. So anything else beyond these facts is speculation so should be ignored.
> 
> You'll be glad to know I have finished this post now and this thread. What else can be said without going around in circles and making speculative comments. I will come back to this thread after October 2018 (14 months time) when we know what the separation deal looks like with the EU if the UK hasn't crashed out of the EU before hand. You will see me contributing to other threads btw.


I do not know what PetForums VIP means, but I notice that 2 people with this tag express extreme nationalistic and anti-European views. Should not this forum be not so highly politicized?

The future will show whether the UK will win or lose from Brexit. I personally know that the UK will lose because I have enough information. Everyone should first be informed and then decide how to vote.


----------



## Zaros

Vesela Georgieva said:


> I do not know what PetForums VIP means, but I notice that 2 people with this tag express extreme nationalistic and anti-European views. Should not this forum be not so highly politicized?
> 
> The future will show whether the UK will win or lose from Brexit. I personally know that the UK will lose because I have enough information. Everyone should first be informed and then decide how to vote.


You seem to have your head screwed on right.

VIP denotes the length of time you've been a member/number of posts. That's all, nothing more.


----------



## Vesela Georgieva

Zaros said:


> You seem to have your head screwed on right.
> 
> VIP denotes the length of time you've been a member/number of posts. That's all, nothing more.


Sorry, and apologize


----------



## Elles

wow. People can be anti Eu and anti Brussels, but very pro European. The Eu isn't Europe, it's a government body. Clearly you'd already made up your mind about why people voted to leave the Eu before you posted. It's a prejudiced point of view. Unfortunately it seems everyone living outside the Uk, pro the Eu and posting on this forum share it. We need a word for it. Brexist?


----------



## Zaros

Vesela Georgieva said:


> Sorry, and apologize


Twas but a compliment.

You have no need to apologise.


----------



## Arnie83

Vesela Georgieva said:


> The future will show whether the UK will win or lose from Brexit. I personally know that the UK will lose because I have enough information. *Everyone should first be informed and then decide how to vote*.


Sadly; it's too late for that.


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> The Guardian is a strange paper.
> 
> It headlines, "The UK is Becoming the Sick Man of Europe" despite figures suggesting something very different. When I need a good giggle in the morning, I now have a choice of The Canary or The Guardian.
> *
> UK manufacturing output strongest since 1995*


It's good to see optimism in the sector, and it is very much expected after the precipitous fall of the pound a year ago, with an export boost from cheaper prices.

The official figures are not quite so optimistic, and there are some voices warning of choppy waters ahead, but so much depends on the Brexit negotiations.

I know this is from the Grauniad, but the quotes within it are not.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ory-output-grows-fastest-rate-since-mid-1990s


----------



## Vesela Georgieva

Elles said:


> wow. People can be anti Eu and anti Brussels, but very pro European. The Eu isn't Europe, it's a government body. Clearly you'd already made up your mind about why people voted to leave the Eu before you posted. It's a prejudiced point of view. Unfortunately it seems everyone living outside the Uk, pro the Eu and posting on this forum share it. We need a word for it. Brexist?


Do not you want to know what is the opinion of people living outside the UK? For you the world is UK only.
Your vote aims to punish European politicians. This is fine, the EC citizens will be able to benefit from this. But why do not you think about UK residents?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Vesela Georgieva said:


> Everyone should first be informed and then decide how to vote.


Well everyone went into the referendum voting booths with the exact same information. Why remainers think they were better informed then the leavers is a mystery.


----------



## Vesela Georgieva

Dr Pepper said:


> Well everyone went into the referendum voting booths with the exact same information. Why remainers think they they were better informed then the leavers is a mystery.


There is no way for 2 people to have the same information. If you are a financial director, and I am a cleaner, how do we get the same information. The information you have, I can not even understand.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Vesela Georgieva said:


> There is no way for 2 people to have the same information. If you are a financial director, and I am a cleaner, how do we get the same information. The information you have, I can not even understand.


Why would a cleaner be less informed than a financial director?


----------



## Vesela Georgieva

Dr Pepper said:


> Why would a cleaner be less informed than a financial director?


Because he does not even understand the terms in the sphere of state and financial management


----------



## Dr Pepper

Vesela Georgieva said:


> Because he does not even understand the terms in the sphere of state and financial management


Oh, is that right is it.

I'll reply to you no further as I'm a mere dog walker so obviously don't understand anything about Brexit at the level you do.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Well everyone went into the referendum voting booths with the exact same information. Why remainers think they were better informed then the leavers is a mystery.


Well you do not seem to be able to come up with advantages to vote leave based on factual information.... Remainers have produced factual information on disadvantages and continue to do so.


----------



## Vesela Georgieva

The future will show what information is false. That for or against the exit. One can not know and understand everything, but at least he has to choose the people to trust.


----------



## Arnie83

Everybody had access to the same information, and to the same misinformation.

Whether they bothered to investigate, understand and evaluate it before making their decision is very doubtful.

I suspect that most went on a personal feeling which may or may not have had its basis in fact.

But, again, it is all now somewhat moot.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Well you do not seem to be able to come up with advantages to vote leave based on factual information.... Remainers have produced factual information on disadvantages and continue to do so.


Well it's obvious innit, I voted leave for the same reasons wot all the others did. To put a stop to bloody foreigners coming over and taking our jobs, council houses and benefits. My only hesitation was losing my free roaming allowances on my mobile when we take the kids out of school (not that they often attend as it is, who needs a education anyway) for our two weeks all inclusive in Torremolinos. I was also concerned about the price of my cans of Special Brew going up, but turns out it's made in the UK anyway, lucky that as thirteen cans a night takes a large chunk out of my benefits as it is so could have swayed my vote.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Vesela Georgieva

Arnie83 said:


> Everybody had access to the same information, and to the same misinformation.
> 
> Whether they bothered to investigate, understand and evaluate it before making their decision is very doubtful.
> 
> I suspect that most went on a personal feeling which may or may not have had its basis in fact.
> 
> But, again, it is all now somewhat moot.


Yet, when a person votes for vital decisions, one has to choose for what it is, not against what it is. Because this can be for much worse things.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Your posts are always very sensible and well-researched and you never sink to personal insults or repeat the same facts with different words. I may not always agree with them but I have to say that I do always respect them and your opinions.
> ETA: Your cat looks nice too!:Cat


 Absolutely , I find Arnie83 posts an interesting read , she puts a lot of thought into them with out being repetitious . I don't switch off when I see them.


----------



## Vesela Georgieva

Dr Pepper said:


> Well it's obvious innit, I voted leave for the same reasons wot all the others did. To put a stop to bloody foreigners coming over and taking our jobs, council houses and benefits. My only hesitation was losing my free roaming allowances on my mobile when we take the kids out of school (not that they often attend as it is, who needs a education anyway) for our two weeks all inclusive in Torremolinos. I was also concerned about the price of my cans of Special Brew going up, but turns out it's made in the UK anyway, lucky that as thirteen cans a night takes a large chunk out of my benefits as it is so could have swayed my vote.


We are all against terrorists and aggressive foreigners across Europe. But there are other ways in which this problem can be solved. Now I understand why you voted for the exit. Politicians have convinced you that this will solve the problems with illegal immigrants.


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> lucky that as thirteen cans a night takes a large chunk out of my benefits as it is so could have swayed my vote.


Only 13...almost teetotal then. :Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> she puts a lot of thought into them with out being repetitious


I think @Arnie83 is a he. I thought the cat might be a he, it's a big cat by the look of it, but it's called Rosie so I'm guessing it's a lady cat.


----------



## Elles

Best the cleaner does as he or she's told then and leave the debate to the educated grown ups.

I could say everyone who voted Remain did so because they're terrified of change and brainwashed by the government and the wealthy into accepting more and more bureaucracy. Supporting a capitalist agenda, giving faceless powermongers even more power over the downtrodden minions. I could even believe it. It wouldn't make it true. I don't doubt that many remainers didn't look at any facts at all either, just voted Remain because they felt it was best. I don't disagree that many Leavers were the same.

Whether Brexit is a mistake or not only time will tell and even then it depends on individual ideas of what is better, or worse. Better is never better for everyone, but worse probably isn't either. It also depends on how the government and the Eu deal with it. Even in the worst case scenarios it's not going to be the end of the world and if people don't take risks, we'd still be living in caves. The referendum itself was a risk. It rocked the boat whichever way people had voted.

People did vote. Staying in the Eu may have made matters worse. In my opinion the referendum was a mistake that has repercussions all by itself. It was the wrong time with the wrong government. Stay or leave, we needed a strong forward thinking government to see it through and we don't and didn't have one.

However, the majority who voted asked to leave the Eu. Just as majorities have voted on other things individuals, or groups may, or may not like and for their own reasons. It's not for anyone else to make assumptions about someone else's reasons, conclusions or their character, based purely on how they voted. Either way.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Calvine said:


> Only 13...almost teetotal then. :Hilarious


Thank you. People say I drink to much but they are the stupid ones. A can of Special Brew at 8% has half a alcohol unit in it. So thirteen cans a night is only 5 units a day. I don't drink on Sunday (I like a alcohol free day so share the wife's bottles of wine) so that's thirty units a week, just two above the government's recommended minimum of 28.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I think @Arnie83 is a he. I thought the cat might be a he, it's a big cat by the look of it, but it's called Rosie so I'm guessing it's a lady cat.


I wasn't sure . Apologies to Arnie


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> So thirteen cans a night is only 5 units a day


Must make you p*ss like a racehorse tho'? I agree, you need to top up the units a bit.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> I think @Arnie83 is a he. I thought the cat might be a he, it's a big cat by the look of it, but it's called Rosie so I'm guessing it's a lady cat.


Most of Rosie is fluff, and the rest is 100% Little Madam!


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I could say everyone who voted Remain did so because they're terrified of change and brainwashed by the government and the wealthy into accepting more and more bureaucracy. Supporting a capitalist agenda, giving faceless powermongers even more power over the downtrodden minions. I could even believe it. It wouldn't make it true. I don't doubt that many remainers didn't look at any facts at all either, just voted Remain because they felt it was best. I don't disagree that many Leavers were the same.


Strange how leavers cannot explain advantages to leaving then isn't it. Instead you list reasoning which is not supported by the facts. Democratic process is now called faceless powermongers. EU bloat is far less bloated than the UK government considering the amount of people it is responsible for. Within the EU we actually had methods to hold the government to account to protect rights etc which the UK government is determined to get rid of in the leaving process. As for capitalist agenda.. what is the UK pushing at becoming.. a tax haven, hardly anti capitalism is it. Who is calling the shots in the UK at the moment.. foreign media moguls (even pushing the candidate for the environment minister). In addition we have secret deals with large manufacturers by the government.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Not Guardian this time: Facts, not feelings.















I post from many sources, sadly they all point to slowdown in UK economy, which was growing and prosperous pre- referendum.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> wow. People can be anti Eu and anti Brussels, but very pro European. The Eu isn't Europe, it's a government body. Clearly you'd already made up your mind about why people voted to leave the Eu before you posted. It's a prejudiced point of view. Unfortunately it seems everyone living outside the Uk, pro the Eu and posting on this forum share it. We need a word for it. Brexist?


 your a VIP elles


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> I could say everyone who voted Remain did so because they're terrified of change and brainwashed by the government and the wealthy into accepting more and more bureaucracy. Supporting a capitalist agenda, giving faceless powermongers even more power over the downtrodden minions. I could even believe it. It wouldn't make it true. I don't doubt that many remainers didn't look at any facts at all either, just voted Remain because they felt it was best. I don't disagree that many Leavers were the same.
> 
> Whether Brexit is a mistake or not only time will tell and even then it depends on individual ideas of what is better, or worse. Better is never better for everyone, but worse probably isn't either. It also depends on how the government and the Eu deal with it. Even in the worst case scenarios it's not going to be the end of the world and if people don't take risks, we'd still be living in caves. The referendum itself was a risk. It rocked the boat whichever way people had voted.
> 
> People did vote. Staying in the Eu may have made matters worse. In my opinion the referendum was a mistake that has repercussions all by itself. It was the wrong time with the wrong government. Stay or leave, we needed a strong forward thinking government to see it through and we don't and didn't have one.
> 
> However, the majority who voted asked to leave the Eu. Just as majorities have voted on other things individuals, or groups may, or may not like and for their own reasons. It's not for anyone else to make assumptions about someone else's reasons, conclusions or their character, based purely on how they voted. Either way.


Cant argue with that:Bawling￼


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Cant argue with that:Bawling￼


Other than the arguments for leaving are false and not supported by the facts


----------



## cheekyscrip

One question: Is our economy affected?
Which way?
Yay or nay?
Not talking about feeling, just pounds.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> One question: Is our economy affected?
> Which way?
> Yay or nay?
> Not talking about feeling, just pounds.


Apparently it's yay but not in the Doomsday scenario we were told it would be. Apparently food is more expensive, can't say I've noticed though. Petrol is cheaper which is good. I'm not going abroad this year so my tourist pound doesn't matter. Frankly I'm no better or worse off than pre-referendum and I'm pretty sure most would say the same.


----------



## Elles

No idea. Gibraltar used to do really well. My son's father in law worked in Gib and was paid in sterling, but his very nice house was in Spain, so his living expenses were in Euro. He told us that the value of the pound meant he did far better than if he'd been paid in Euros. He could have chosen either when he started. Fast forward a few years and the pound devalued, I remember him complaining about it. We were still well within the Eu then. Until Brexit is sorted and we know where we are, I expect it'll go up and down a bit.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> One question: Is our economy affected?
> Which way?
> Yay or nay?
> Not talking about feeling, just pounds.


Yep, it is cheeky, but then I think things have been kept artificially low for too long now farmers with the milk etc supermarket price Wars etc I do believe it is brexit that's pushed up the prices yes but in all honesty I think brexit will get the blame for everything for the next few years


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Other than the arguments for leaving are false and not supported by the facts


And the reasons to remain! For some ,there are non!


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> One question: Is our economy affected?
> Which way?
> Yay or nay?
> Not talking about feeling, just pounds.


It's a question that already shows how difficult it will be in the future to determine what the cost / benefit of leaving actually has been.

The only visible change to the person in the street that is unequivocally caused by Brexit so far is the 15-20% fall in the pound v the $ and €.

Prices of imported goods have risen, as has inflation.

But petrol, as someone said, has become cheaper. This, though, hides the fact that without the fall in the pound it would be cheaper still. So in fact Brexit has raised the price above what we would otherwise be paying, but because of the supply / demand factors, that effect has been hidden.

In the future, unless changes are very large, they will probably be partially or wholly obscured by other factors.

So far, though, it has been bad economically.


----------



## Elles

I think it's more the uncertainty than actual Brexit that is causing the fluctuations?


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> And the reasons to remain! For some ,there are non!


Oh look.. before you ignore it and fail to provide factual reasoning and advantages to leaving yet again



Goblin said:


> Done so lots of times on this forum and information based on facts. Let's start with:
> _
> Providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital._
> 
> Now DT, your turn.


Of course maybe we add things like Euroatom onto that list as well. So, can you now add advantages of leaving ?

Edit: to be fair.. DT responded only on the top line, posted accidently before completed inserting quoted post


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Oh look.. before you ignore it and fail to provide factual reasoning and advantages to leaving...


Why the hell do I want to factual reasons and advantages I quite honestly don't give a monkey's so long as we leave.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think it's more the uncertainty than actual Brexit that is causing the fluctuations?


If you mean the value of the pound (I sometimes can't tell which post you're responding to! ) then yes, absolutely uncertainty plays a part, but the expectation of the markets is that the economy will suffer, which pushes demand for - and therefore the price of - the pound downwards.


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Why the hell do I want to factual reasons and advantages I quite honestly don't give a monkey's so long as we leave.


I rest my case.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Why the hell do I want to factual reasons and advantages I quite honestly don't give a monkey's so long as we leave.


There you go.. the attitude of some leavers.. don't care about damaging the country and other people's lives, so long as we leave even when it doesn't gain anything.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Well let's presume a trade deal with the USA is in the offing. But to secure it we have to abide by their courts of justice superseding our own courts. We have to allow all and every American into the UK and they have the right to claim benefits. We have to accept their working directives. We have to take on their taxes on our electricity and gas. Our banks have to take their regulations etc etc.

Anyone think that's a good idea? I'd be against it.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Well let's presume a trade deal with the USA is in the offing. But to secure it we have to abide by their courts of justice superseding our own courts. We have to allow all and every American into the UK and they have the right to claim benefits.


Didn't you know, all trade deals have a dispute mechanism in place. As for allowing every American in, considering the EU doesn't allow that what is the point of the question? The UK government allows it but never mind, that's not relevant is it.

What we have to abide by a democratic system.. shock horror.. what do you think UK regulations are? Then again there we don't have proportional representation allowing smaller concerns to actually have a voice.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Well let's presume a trade deal with the USA is in the offing. But to secure it we have to abide by their courts of justice superseding our own courts. We have to allow all and every American into the UK and they have the right to claim benefits. We have to accept their working directives. We have to take on their taxes on our electricity and gas. Our banks have to take their regulations etc etc.
> 
> Anyone think that's a good idea? I'd be against it.


I'd be against that too.

Good job it doesn't describe the situation vis a vis our membership of the EU.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I'd be against that too.
> 
> Good job it doesn't describe the situation vis a vis our membership of the EU.


Well seeing as we voted to join a trading block and ended up with EU we have today I think it's very relevant.


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> I rest my case.


Good! Because I am fed up to the back teeth of having to justify to insignificant little people on this forum not yourself I add my reasons for wanting to exit the EU I have always found your posts all to be respectful courteous and of good content thank you for that.


----------



## Elles

They have to be here a little while before they can claim some benefits and have only 3 months to find, or make work. Though tax credits are quite valuable to the lower paid, especially those with families. We'd be back on my particular soap box then though. I think it's the one I stand on with JC. ​


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> There you go.. the attitude of some leavers.. don't care about damaging the country and other people's lives, so long as we leave even when it doesn't gain anything.


Whatever


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> If you mean the value of the pound (I sometimes can't tell which post you're responding to! ) then yes, absolutely uncertainty plays a part, but the expectation of the markets is that the economy will suffer, which pushes demand for - and therefore the price of - the pound downwards.


Yes, that's what I was replying to.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat said:


> View attachment 318925
> 
> 
> @Goblin
> View attachment 318926
> 
> 
> I rest my case.


Goodness it`s 2018 already - how time flies!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> What we have to abide by a democratic system.. shock horror.. what do you think UK regulations are? Then again there we don't have proportional representation allowing smaller concerns to actually have a voice.


Nothing democratic about it. Not one person in the UK voted, or asked, for the EU we have today.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Nothing democratic about it. Not one person in the UK voted, or asked, for the EU we have today.


You voted for past governments didn't you. People to represent you. That's called democracy. You vote for MEP's representing you in the EU. That's also democracy.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> You voted for past governments didn't you. People to represent you. That's called democracy. You vote for MEP's representing you in the EU. That's also democracy.


Didn't vote to join the EU but we did, that's not democracy.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Didn't vote to join the EU but we did, that's not democracy.


What do you call it when we elect people into government to represent us and that elected government makes decisions then?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> What do you call it when we elect people into government to represent us and that elected government makes decisions then?


Democratic, just so long as they don't put us under the influence of a unelected court of justice. Then it's undemocratic.


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> I think brexit will get the blame for everything for the next few years


It's getting blamed already and hasn't even happened yet!


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Democratic, just so long as they don't put us under the influence of a unelected court of justice. Then it's undemocratic.


I'm no expert on the British judiciary, but we don't elect them, do we?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I'm no expert on the British judiciary, but we don't elect them, do we?


"British" is the key word there


----------



## Goblin

Yet the european court only has jurisdiction on eu matters with the EU also being a democracy for which you have representation. No difference. Same mechanism, democracy.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Yet the european court only has jurisdiction on eu matters with the EU also being a democracy for which you have representation. No difference. Same mechanism, democracy.


It's only democratic if you've had the chance to vote on participation. If you don't have that opportunity it's not democratic.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> "British" is the key word there


No, you've got me there.

We (UK citizens) elect MP's who appoint judges to the UK judiciary and that's democratic.

We (EU citizens) elect MP's who appoint judges to the ECJ and that's not democratic.

How do you square that one?


----------



## Elles

I don't remember an election to choose an MEP based on his policies taken forward to the Eu? Maybe if we had, people would feel different about it? Did we vote for Nige to be an MEP and not turn up?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> No, you've got me there.
> 
> We (UK citizens) elect MP's who appoint judges to the UK judiciary and that's democratic.
> 
> We (EU citizens) elect MP's who appoint judges to the ECJ and that's not democratic.
> 
> How do you square that one?


Easy, the public only ever got the option of joining a trading group. Would you be happy if a trade deal with USA resulted in them having power over our courts some twenty years later? That's what happened in the UK.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> It's only democratic if you've had the chance to vote on participation. If you don't have that opportunity it's not democratic.


No, you've agreed, it's democracy that you vote MP's in to represent you and they make decisions.


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> There you go.. the attitude of some leavers.. don't care about damaging the country and other people's lives, so long as we leave even when it doesn't gain anything.


Yay! Something we agree on. That describes my attitude precisely (though I don't know how one damages a country).


----------



## Elles

I read that Turkey are no longer bothered about joining the Eu, now that Britain is leaving. They've stopped trying to meet the criteria and are back doing their own thing.


----------



## rona

Since April 2006, judicial appointments have been the responsibility of an independent Judicial Appointments Commission.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/about-...t-and-the-constitution/jud-acc-ind/jud-appts/


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> I read that Turkey are no longer bothered about joining the Eu, now that Britain is leaving. They've stopped trying to meet the criteria and are back doing their own thing.


Wasn't there a little row and a few insults thrown the other day?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> No, you've agreed, it's democracy that you vote MP's in to represent you and they make decisions.


Yes. WITHIN THE UK. Anything outside the UK that may effect us in such a substantial manner should be put to a referendum. Just as it was last year, although very belated.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> I read that Turkey are no longer bothered about joining the Eu, now that Britain is leaving. They've stopped trying to meet the criteria and are back doing their own thing.


Wonder why that is shouldn't need the number three guesses


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Since April 2006, judicial appointments have been the responsibility of an independent Judicial Appointments Commission.
> 
> https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/about-...t-and-the-constitution/jud-acc-ind/jud-appts/


So we don't vote for them at all.

Isn't that considerably less democratic than the ECJ appointments system?


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Easy, the public only ever got the option of joining a trading group. Would you be happy if a trade deal with USA resulted in them having power over our courts some twenty years later? That's what happened in the UK.


Totally different, EU is not a nation state and the UK would not have a say in what happens in the US. Better example is England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Wait.. UK does have power over courts for all. So if you don't agree with it you are pushing to break up the UK as it's not democratic?



Dr Pepper said:


> Yes. WITHIN THE UK. Anything outside the UK that may effect us in such a substantial manner should be put to a referendum. Just as it was last year, although very belated.


Referendums in the UK are by default not binding and not part of the democratic process. They are simply an opinion poll.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I read that Turkey are no longer bothered about joining the Eu, now that Britain is leaving. They've stopped trying to meet the criteria and are back doing their own thing.


Something about the crackdown on democracy and possible human right violations I believe which is against EU policy.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/turkey/report-turkey/


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Easy, the public only ever got the option of joining a trading group. Would you be happy if a trade deal with USA resulted in them having power over our courts some twenty years later? That's what happened in the UK.


I don't thing that's actually an answer to the question of comparative democracy between appointments to British courts and the ECJ - in fact I'm sure it isn't - but I've learned there is little point in pursuing such points once the topic has been deflected.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Totally different, EU is not a nation state


That's kinda the whole point.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> That's kinda the whole point.


So why use the US pretending it's the same. EU is a democratic body of multiple countries, all of which has a say in how it is developed through democratic process. So are you pushing for the UK to break up as that is a far better example. Wait, isn't the UK stronger together rather than separate?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So why use the US pretending it's the same. EU is a democratic body of multiple countries, all of which has a say in how it is developed through democratic process. So are you pushing for the UK to break up as that is a far better example. Wait, isn't the UK stronger together rather than separate?


Jesus, are you missing the point on purpose?

Simply would you be happy to be under the control of the United States of America law courts in return for a free trade deal? If not then why are you happy to be under the control of the EJC for the same?


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Jesus, are you missing the point on purpose?
> 
> Simply would you be happy to be under the control of the United States of America law courts in return for a free trade deal? If not then why are you happy to be under the control of the EJC for the same?


You are missing the point, as you've already stated the EU is not a nation state so the comparison is false. You do realise of course that any trade deal will involve an unelected group (which both parties pay for) which will be used to adjudicate disputes.


----------



## Arnie83

When did the European court start controlling the workings of the common / single market?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> You are missing the point, as you've already stated the EU is not a nation state so the comparison is false. You do realise of course that any trade deal will involve an unelected group (which both parties pay for) which will be used to adjudicate disputes.


I give up. I realise you reside in the EU so think it wonderful. I reside in the UK and think that's wonderful. And never the twain will meet.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> I give up. I realise you reside in the EU so think it wonderful. I reside in the UK and think that's wonderful. And never the twain will meet.


Is that you didn't realise that trade deals always have a dispute mechanism built in which means if you have a trade deal you are under a "court system" ouside of UK jurisdiction?

Me living in the EU has nothing to do with it. So do you. No winners with the UK leaving the EU. Advantages to staying.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Is that you didn't realise that trade deals always have a dispute mechanism built in which means if you have a trade deal you are under a "court system" ouside of UK jurisdiction?
> 
> Me living in the EU has nothing to do with it. So do you. No winners with the UK leaving the EU. Advantages to staying.


Na, your wrong. Time will tell and nothing else will.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> Na, your wrong. Time will tell and nothing else will.


When this time will tell what?
Wishful thinking?

In foreseeable future UK is worse off...which will affect the worst those who struggle already...not those who are really well.off with shares abroad...
Easy to say" whatever" if no skin of your nose?
While the use of food banks is growing...
Very selfish attitude.


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> When this time will tell what?
> Wishful thinking?
> 
> In foreseeable future UK is worse off...which will affect the worst those who struggle already...not those who are really well.off with shares abroad...
> Easy to say" whatever" if no skin of your nose?
> While the use of food banks is growing...
> Very selfish attitude.


Na, we've not left the EU yet so that has nothing to do regarding the need for food banks, they were about long before the referendum.


----------



## Elles

Maybe people who were using food banks and welfare to keep afloat thought things can't get any worse and that leaving the Eu might be an improvement. Voting for Brexit themselves. I haven't asked any food bank users, but I expect someone might have.


----------



## Elles

There you go. A guardian article on why the poor voted for Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-immigration-fuelled-brexit-vote-study-finds


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> See, that's the difference tween you and I Noush'; the refinement of genus.
> 
> You have eyes like a hawk
> 
> and me
> 
> The eyes of a sh1thouse rat.:Shy


LOL

I bet you've got a better nose then me then



Dr Pepper said:


> Na, we've not left the EU yet so that has nothing to do regarding the need for food banks, they were about long before the referendum.





Elles said:


> Maybe people who were using food banks and welfare to keep afloat thought things can't get any worse and that leaving the Eu might be an improvement. Voting for Brexit themselves. I haven't asked any food bank users, but I expect someone might have.





Elles said:


> There you go. A guardian article on why the poor voted for Brexit.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-immigration-fuelled-brexit-vote-study-finds


Yep, good article Elles - _'many were driven by emotion'_ . Feelings v evidence.

Years of the tories ideological austerity played a big factor in the Brexit vote. The poorest have been punished the hardest & many believed the lies whipped up by certain politicians, the leave campaign, the right wing media pinning the blame at the EUs door when it in fact it was all due to the government. And now outside of the EU things are set to get worse then ever, we have an even more insidious set of tories who will use brexit to their advantage & impose austerity like we've never witnessed before . They are 'disaster capitalists' - the elite will be only winners now, hence why they have been desperate for us to leave the EU. The EU actually offered us some protection from our own government.

So not only did Tory party divisions force the referendum on the nation, but Tory austerity is why leave won. The irony.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Jesus, are you missing the point on purpose?
> 
> Simply would you be happy to be under the control of the United States of America law courts in return for a free trade deal? If not then why are you happy to be under the control of the EJC for the same?


The tories are desperate for a trade deal with the US. It will be like 'TTIP on steroids'. Brexit means selling our NHS, our public services to US companies. US corporations will be able to sue our government if anything stands in the way of profit. It will be a race to the bottom for food safety, our environment, animal welfare.

Do you really want a trade deal at any cost?

.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> The tories are desperate for a trade deal with the US. It will be like 'TTIP on steroids'. Brexit means selling our NHS, our public services to US companies. US corporations will be able to sue our government if anything stands in the way of profit.


It was only a few days ago you were asking for just one benefit of leaving the EU and now there you go listing a bunch of 'em!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> There you go. A guardian article on why the poor voted for Brexit.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-immigration-fuelled-brexit-vote-study-finds


Excellent article, and pretty much exactly what I would expect.

The Leave campaign recognised it early and played on ... let's call it 'mistrust' of outsiders. Those like Farage put up posters of refugees and pretended they were on their way here in their millions. Gove & co. said that 75 million Turks were practically massing on our borders. And sufficient people were sufficiently concerned to push the Leave vote to 52%.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> Do you really want a trade deal at any cost?
> 
> .


Oh absolutely, thought I made that perfect clear a few posts ago :Banghead

It seems to be the remain camp that want to hold onto a certain trade deal at any cost.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh absolutely, thought I made that perfect clear a few posts ago :Banghead
> 
> It seems to be the remain camp that want to hold onto a certain trade deal at any cost.


Having american companies dictate UK policy is preferable? Policies driven by corporate interest in which you have no say. Personally I prefer a democractic process. What was Trump's rallying cry.. Americans First.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Having american companies dictate UK policy is preferable? Policies driven by corporate interest in which you have no say. Personally I prefer a democractic process. What was Trump's rallying cry.. Americans First.


:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead ouch:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead

Ooouuuchhh:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead

That hurt, but worth it:Banghead


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## noushka05




----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> But you listed some a couple of posts back.


Brexit at any cost may be a positive for you, I doubt the reality would be for the majority however.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> Can I just point something out @noushka05 you said: Do you really want a trade deal at any cost? Not Brexit at any costs
> 
> So this morning I was watching the Parliament channel (I know call me boring) and it was David Davis in front of a house of lords Brexit committee over last week's negotiations and other issues. David Davis has made it clear that the Government are seeking a trade deal with the EU but Michel Barnier is wanting to clear the issues he has highlighted first. David Davis has been having talks with others and Holland, France and Germany want a trade deal sorting out with the UK and feel that it is more important doing this than the issues Michel Barnier wants sorting first as well as sorting out the status of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU. The committee asked various questions and it was very interesting to watch as you get a better understanding of what is going on than reading the tittle tattle in the papers which in some cases is inaccurate or misinterpreted information to what is actually happening. So that was my 7am to 7:40am entertainment this morning over a nice cup of coffee.


I'll let this academic sum up just what the Trump tweet means for us.

*Translation: The EU will not bend to our low standards. The UK is alone now and will bend to our low standards*



*Donald J. Trump*‏Verified [email protected]*realDonaldTrump* Jul 25

Working on major Trade Deal with the United Kingdom. Could be very big & exciting. JOBS! 
The E.U. is very protectionist with the U.S. STOP!

.


----------



## MoggyBaby

Good grief!! I cannot BELIEVE that this thread is still running!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## stockwellcat.

MoggyBaby said:


> Good grief!! I cannot BELIEVE that this thread is still running!


Welcome back  
Yes it's still going.


----------



## noushka05

MoggyBaby said:


> Good grief!! I cannot BELIEVE that this thread is still running!


Aw so good to see you back MB! I don't think this thread of yours will ever die



stockwellcat said:


> Some of the EU countries standards are lower than ours on animal welfare for example. I am no academic and don't need a degree to understand this. This was just an example and that is all.


The eu sets minimum standards - counties can set higher standards if they want to. If you're championing a trade deal with the USA - then it WILL be at great cost. Our standards WILL fall in line with theirs. Our health service will be as bad as theirs.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat said:


> As I said the other day on the other thread something similar was mentioned on. You're jumpng the gun. We do not know this yet. We are not in negotiations with the USA. We cannot agree to, have negotiations on a or sign any trade deals until after we leave the EU as you have told us repeatedly in this thread. All that has happened is a conversation has taken place between Dr Liam Fox MP and US trade negotiators. Trump tweets about everything doesn't mean it will happen. It's all speculation at the moment.


The tories are desperate for a trade deal with the US. And you want brexit whatever the cost, don't you?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat said:


> Welcome back
> Yes it's still going *nowhere*.


Sorry, I don't normally like to correct people's posts but just thought I'd do you a favour this once.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> Sorry, I don't normally like to correct people's posts but just thought I'd do you a favour this once.


:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> Can I just point something out @noushka05 you said: Do you really want a trade deal at any cost? Not Brexit at any costs


Brexit will cost no matter what. Government is so determined to get a trade deal for UK public consumption what is it prepared to give away? Remember that 2003 extradition treaty...



> So this morning I was watching the Parliament channel (I know call me boring) and it was David Davis in front of a house of lords Brexit committee over last week's negotiations and other issues. David Davis has made it clear that the Government are seeking a trade deal with the EU but Michel Barnier is wanting to clear the issues he has highlighted first. David Davis has been having talks with others and Holland, France and Germany want a trade deal sorting out with the UK and feel that it is more important doing this than the issues Michel Barnier wants sorting first as well as sorting out the status of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU. The committee asked various questions and it was very interesting to watch as you get a better understanding of what is going on than reading the tittle tattle in the papers which in some cases is inaccurate or misinterpreted information to what is actually happening. So that was my 7am to 7:40am entertainment this morning over a nice cup of coffee.


You realise that technically any trade deal with the EU should come after completion of the leave negotiations? Leaving does not include any trade deal. They even require different agreement methodology within the EU by law. So do negotiations, get to a decent point and then work on trade deals is a concession from the EU. Ah, wait, D.D has said Holland, France and Germany want trade deals. Maybe you provide links where they have said it. If you haven't noticed what people like D.D. say and reality are often different. One thing brexit and the government's methodology of trying to play Eu countries off one another has already done, it's united the 27 other countries including agreeing to the negotiation process and EU negotiation requirements and stance.



stockwellcat said:


> They only represent a small fraction of remoaners (I can see why they where given this nick name now) the ones on petforums only.


Back to that again.. when you haven't any facts showing advantages of leaving you have to revert to name calling.


----------



## Elles

Regarding being able to raise our standards above what the Eu dictates. We cant always. We cannot ban chemicals unless it's an Eu ban. We cannot ban live transport, unless it's an Eu ban.

Regarding the Guardian article on why the poor voted Brexit. Immigration is a big issue to an individual if they end up without a job and living in a b&b because of it. People can tell them it's good for the economy and it's lies until they're blue in the face. It's their truth.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat said:


> It's not worth it banging your head on the wall. They only represent a small fraction of remoaners (I can see why they where given this nick name now) the ones on petforums only.
> 
> Beyond the computer screen and keyboard there is something called real life.
> 
> Try not to hurt your head to much. They will never agree with us on here, they do it deliberately to get on our nerves. Hence why they go around in circles asking the same questions they where asking over a year ago.
> 
> They are only pretending not to listen or not acknowledge what we saying. They understand perfectly.


Typical. Resort to name calling as you know you'll never win your argument.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Regarding the Guardian article on why the poor voted Brexit. Immigration is a big issue to an individual *if they end up *without a job and living in a b&b because of it. People can tell them it's good for the economy and it's lies until they're blue in the face. It's their truth.


Or if they are afraid of ending up that way.

'Project fear' was not solely employed by Remainer economists!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted 27/07/2017


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Typical. Resort to name calling as you know you'll never win your argument.


Don't think that's name calling?

However in the past couple of days I've been told I'm not intelligent enough to understand what voting leave means because I'm not an economist or financial director. We've also been told cleaners specifically wouldn't have enough information to make an informed decision.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ugh-negotiate-properly?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am deleting all my comments (slowly) from this thread apart from my first comment on page 16 as I no longer want to be part of a debate that really isn't going anywhere.

On the 23rd June 2016 the UK public made a decision at the ballot box in the EU Referendum and since there has been nothing but animosity towards those that voted to leave (that is my opinion so sorry if you don't like it). I am sorry if you feel you cannot accept the results of the Referendum, but things are moving on like life.

What has happened has happened. Let's just get on with making a success of what the majority of people voted for (sorry if you don't like this comment but it's true).

That is my finishing statement.

See you all around on other threads but I am done on this thread as I don't see the point in going around in circles because certain people cannot accept things.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Or if they are afraid of ending up that way.
> 
> 'Project fear' was not solely employed by Remainer economists!


The trouble is it did happen. In more than one area Taxi companies were badly undercut by a wealthy immigrant, who then imported his labour, employing only migrants and encouraging them to bring brothers, fathers, friends with them. Car and house sharing so they could work for less. He bought out every other taxi company, who hadn't been able to compete.

Drivers who were making a living found themselves with no work. There are now 4x the number of drivers and all of them are migrant males. They mostly complain that there aren't enough fares for them and have to claim benefits to top up what they earn where they can. We're covering the countryside with concrete to house them all with their families, as it contributed to the housing crisis.

No one other than the owner is better off from it. Not the now closed companies, not the underpaid drivers, not the unemployed drivers, not housing, not infrastructure, not clients, nothing. Just one wealthy guy and 'the economy'.

The Eu didn't help make their home country more viable, nor did it allow or encourage our country to protect workers and self employed. The ex taxi drivers voted Brexit. Even Jeremy's increase on the minimum wage and fines for companies using cheap labour wouldn't help them. They're self employed. What they voted for was to leave the Eu and stop free moment of labour. They don't care about trade deals or the economy. Cameron understood it when he went to the Eu begging for control. Tony Blair understood nothing, but the Eu won't give concessions now to make up for his mistakes in the past.

This is the kind of thing the Guardian article was talking about and the kind of thing Jeremy talks about. The kind of thing remainers insist doesn't happen. It's xenophobia and migrants are good for the economy.

We haven't got Brexit yet and the conspiracists, hard left and many brexiters are seeing a deliberate ploy to undermine it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> The trouble is it did happen. In more than one area Taxi companies were badly undercut by a wealthy immigrant, who then imported his labour, employing only migrants and encouraging them to bring brothers, fathers, friends with them. Car and house sharing so they could work for less. He bought out every other taxi company, who hadn't been able to compete.
> 
> Drivers who were making a living found themselves with no work. There are now 4x the number of drivers and all of them are migrant males. They mostly complain that there aren't enough fares for them and have to claim benefits to top up what they earn where they can. We're covering the countryside with concrete to house them all with their families, as it contributed to the housing crisis.
> 
> No one other than the owner is better off from it. Not the now closed companies, not the underpaid drivers, not the unemployed drivers, not housing, not infrastructure, not clients, nothing. Just one wealthy guy and 'the economy'.
> 
> The Eu didn't help make their home country more viable, nor did it allow or encourage our country to protect workers and self employed. The ex taxi drivers voted Brexit. Even Jeremy's increase on the minimum wage and fines for companies using cheap labour wouldn't help them. They're self employed. What they voted for was to leave the Eu and stop free moment of labour. They don't care about trade deals or the economy. Cameron understood it when he went to the Eu begging for control. Tony Blair understood nothing, but the Eu won't give concessions now to make up for his mistakes in the past.
> 
> This is the kind of thing the Guardian article was talking about and the kind of thing Jeremy talks about. The kind of thing remainers insist doesn't happen. It's xenophobia and migrants are good for the economy.
> 
> We haven't got Brexit yet and the conspiracists, hard left and many brexiters are seeing a deliberate ploy to undermine it.


They do not care about " economy" but if it hits their pockets, then they obviously do.
As to my knowledge there are plenty nonEU taxi drivers...would actually think majority of foreign taxi drivers are not Europeans.

If EU workforce is gone, then there will be those 80k visas for India and more for others, plus relaxation of policy on bringing their relatives...
Why do you think Asian community was so proBrexit?
EU taxi drivers are very much competition for Asian, Middle East, North African and West Indian taxi drivers.
My close friend is a taxi driver in London...seen him recently and we talked about it.
His company has just one Englishman as a driver. He says English hardly ever apply.
Only that one, even he was on " ex- prisoner kind of scheme" , else not one!


----------



## Elles

Trouble is the drivers see shengen and Angela Merkel's open door policy as a part of the problem. Asian, North African etc. just have to get a foothold anywhere in Europe. They are then enabled by right to family life to bring their families. Same as Europeans. I expect if you're a native, you aren't going to be happy about wherever the labour is imported from.

I'm not saying it's right, or that I believe Brexit is a solution, I'm saying it's understandable and there's no denying it. It was something remainers dismissed and it contributed to losing them the vote. Just as the Guardian article suggests.



cheekyscrip said:


> They do not care about " economy" but if it hits their pockets, then they obviously do.
> As to my knowledge there are plenty nonEU taxi drivers...would actually think majority of foreign taxi drivers are not Europeans.
> 
> If EU workforce is gone, then there will be those 80k visas for India and more for others, plus relaxation of policy on bringing their relatives...
> Why do you think Asian community was so proBrexit?
> EU taxi drivers are very much competition for Asian Middle East, North African and West Indian taxi drivers.
> My close friend is a taxi driver in London...seen him recently and we talked about it.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The trouble is it did happen. In more than one area Taxi companies were badly undercut by a wealthy immigrant, who then imported his labour, employing only migrants and encouraging them to bring brothers, fathers, friends with them. Car and house sharing so they could work for less. He bought out every other taxi company, who hadn't been able to compete.
> 
> Drivers who were making a living found themselves with no work. There are now 4x the number of drivers and all of them are migrant males. They mostly complain that there aren't enough fares for them and have to claim benefits to top up what they earn where they can. We're covering the countryside with concrete to house them all with their families, as it contributed to the housing crisis.
> 
> No one other than the owner is better off from it. Not the now closed companies, not the underpaid drivers, not the unemployed drivers, not housing, not infrastructure, not clients, nothing. Just one wealthy guy and 'the economy'.
> 
> The Eu didn't help make their home country more viable, nor did it allow or encourage our country to protect workers and self employed. The ex taxi drivers voted Brexit. Even Jeremy's increase on the minimum wage and fines for companies using cheap labour wouldn't help them. They're self employed. What they voted for was to leave the Eu and stop free moment of labour. They don't care about trade deals or the economy. Cameron understood it when he went to the Eu begging for control. Tony Blair understood nothing, but the Eu won't give concessions now to make up for his mistakes in the past.
> 
> This is the kind of thing the Guardian article was talking about and the kind of thing Jeremy talks about. The kind of thing remainers insist doesn't happen. It's xenophobia and migrants are good for the economy.
> 
> We haven't got Brexit yet and the conspiracists, hard left and many brexiters are seeing a deliberate ploy to undermine it.


Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying it didn't happen. Rather, that some people voted to Leave as a precautionary measure for fear it might happen to them.

Some certainly voted that way because they had seen their livelihoods affected by migrant labour - and taxis are, I think, a very good example, (though many of them are not from the EU and could therefore have been controlled should the government had wished to do so).

But that doesn't deny the fact that some people did vote through fear, or xenophobia (which is not racism), or through the modern manifestation of primitive tribalism, and that those feelings were encouraged by certain elements of the Leave campaign.

Nor is it to deny that migration, at a macro level, benefits the economy whilst at the micro level its effects will, of course, vary and can be very disruptive.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying it didn't happen. Rather, that some people voted to Leave as a precautionary measure for fear it might happen to them.
> 
> Some voted certainly voted that way because they had seen their livelihoods affected by migrant labour - and taxis are, I think, a very good example, (though many of them are not from the EU and could therefore have been controlled should the government had wished to do so).
> 
> But that doesn't deny the fact that some people did vote through fear, or xenophobia (which is not racism), or through the modern manifestation of primitive tribalism, and that those feelings were encouraged by certain elements of the Leave campaign.
> 
> Nor is it to deny that migration, at a macro level, benefits the economy whilst at the micro level its effects will, of course, vary and can be very disruptive.


Yes..Home Office failed rather spectacularly in immigration issues, but succeeded to lay the blame at EU doors.
Guess who was Home Secretary and how was punished for such incompetence and lies?
It seems it qualified her to be our PM.

By the way how many Islamic extremists came to UK from Poland etc...


----------



## Elles

I don't disagree, but when it happened to you, or your mate, or you are worried it will happen to you and you talk about it to your other mates, it's going to make a difference. It's a real, not imagined fear. The Guardian article points out that the Remainers did nothing at all to allay these fears, just dismissed them. Many may not be directly from the Eu, but many are and even if not directly, came via. Certainly in some areas. The Remainers keep blaming untruths and fear mongering for Brexit, when for many it was truths and genuine fears that led them to want to leave the Eu. Making them more afraid scaremongering from the other side, gave the result they wanted. Not. 

Don't forget they also saw the Eu not only wanting unskilled, low paid Eu workers to swamp the country, the Eu wanted us to take more refugees too. The remainers needed to prove that this was not a reason to leave the Eu. Despite the crisis in housing and infrastructure.



Arnie83 said:


> Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying it didn't happen. Rather, that some people voted to Leave as a precautionary measure for fear it might happen to them.
> 
> Some voted certainly voted that way because they had seen their livelihoods affected by migrant labour - and taxis are, I think, a very good example, (though many of them are not from the EU and could therefore have been controlled should the government had wished to do so).
> 
> But that doesn't deny the fact that some people did vote through fear, or xenophobia (which is not racism), or through the modern manifestation of primitive tribalism, and that those feelings were encouraged by certain elements of the Leave campaign.
> 
> Nor is it to deny that migration, at a macro level, benefits the economy whilst at the micro level its effects will, of course, vary and can be very disruptive.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes..Home Office failed rather spectacularly in immigration issues, but succeeded to lay the blame at EU doors.
> Guess who was Home Secretary and how was punished for such incompetence and lies?
> It seems it qualified her to be our PM.
> 
> By the way how many Islamic extremists came to UK from Poland etc...


Theresa May who was also a remainer. Really great for the cause. :Hilarious

Isis terrorists are mostly homegrown and not always from families formerly known as immigrants.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Many may not be directly from the Eu, but many are and even if not directly, came via.


Just a quick point that to have a right of entry to the UK, even "via the EU", they still have to be EU citizens, which in Germany for example takes at least 8 years.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Just a quick point that to have a right of entry to the UK, even "via the EU", they still have to be EU citizens, which in Germany for example takes at least 8 years.


I believe numbers of Eu and none Eu are pretty similar? It was an issue that the Remain side didn't address though. If 500k people arrive and 250k are from the Eu. You believe Brexit will stop the 250k, then you just have to make the government know that there isn't space for the other 250k. Even if you suspected it would actually make no difference, you aren't going to vote to stay in the Eu. England is attractive not least because more none British speak English than they do German, or French, or Italian. Refugees in Calais have said as much. So the refugee crisis didn't help.

It definitely wasn't the only reason people voted to leave the Eu, but it added to the numbers who did.

The referendum was held for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time, by the wrong government imo. Brexit was inevitable, but could be a power for good. It depends on what 'they' do with it now.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat said:


> Iam deleting my all my comments from this thread apart from my first comment on page 15 as I no longer want to be part of a debate that really isn't going anywhere.
> .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Theresa May who was also a remainer. Really great for the cause. :Hilarious
> 
> Isis terrorists are mostly homegrown and not always from families formerly known as immigrants.


She was, telling you all that we are safer and stronger in EU.

Yet difficult to blame EU for big security holes in getting to UK coast unchecked.

EU could not be blamed for UK not implementing regulations they had already.
Overcrowding is a global problem. 
But fewer students who pay, after all will reduce not only immigration but GDP.
Then many pensioners will have to give up their dream of retiring in the sun, with weak pound and no health care cover. They will stay and many expats will.have to.come back. The poorer ones.
Increasing overcrowding and burden on health care.

Recession is inevitable when UK falls on WTO.

Sadly weak pound increasing food prices hits poorer families the hardest, as the poorer you are the more of your income is spent on food.
It is not about new cars, phones or hols abroad. It is about costs of living.

If you have few mouths to feed ... I do feel it acutely as we import all food here.
Extortionate prices in Morrisons or at the market.
Today cherries were £10 kg!!!


----------



## Elles

No the Eu can't be blamed for the failings of the uk government. However the Eu can be blamed for its own failings and the failings it inflicts on individual governments and peoples. 

As I don't believe the Eu is the right way forward and would like to see it fail as it stands, I believe those who voted to leave made the right choice for the future, given current failings and the information available. It was their choice, the uk government had no need to give it to them when it did. We can complain about it all we like, we now have to look to ways to take advantage of that choice in ways that has the potential to benefit. Not try to make it as bad and miserable as possible. 

I'm starting with a lobby for continued and improved animal welfare in the uk, a ban on live transport and a call for sustainable and environmentally friendly farming practices to be a condition of future subsidies. Alongside a group lobbying for a ban on fracking and a review of chemical and pesticide use. 

If I don't get what I want, I will be looking carefully at who I vote for, in future elections and if there is a second referendum. Unlikely, but can't yet be ruled out.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat said:


> What has happened has happened. Let's just get on with making a success of what the majority of people voted for (sorry if you don't like this comment but it's true).


There is no success, the Uk will suffer. That's even if the current government actually could prove they had a clue about what they wanted rather.



> See you all around on other threads but I am done on this thread


Again, how many times is that? Going round in circles as more evidence shows project fear is becoming project reality.



Elles said:


> It was an issue that the Remain side didn't address though.


Face it, facts don't matter, you only have to look at this thread when faced with prejudice. Not that the remain campaign actually did a lot right.



> The referendum was held for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time, by the wrong government imo.


Right there.



> Brexit was inevitable, but could be a power for good. It depends on what 'they' do with it now.


Power for good? Nobody is able to explain how.. replace a democratic system with one we have no say in. Lose out on a lot of "perks".


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Not that the remain campaign actually did a lot right.
> .


We agree on that point.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The trouble is it did happen. In more than one area Taxi companies were badly undercut by a wealthy immigrant, who then imported his labour, employing only migrants and encouraging them to bring brothers, fathers, friends with them. Car and house sharing so they could work for less. He bought out every other taxi company, who hadn't been able to compete.
> 
> Drivers who were making a living found themselves with no work. There are now 4x the number of drivers and all of them are migrant males. They mostly complain that there aren't enough fares for them and have to claim benefits to top up what they earn where they can. We're covering the countryside with concrete to house them all with their families, as it contributed to the housing crisis.
> 
> No one other than the owner is better off from it. Not the now closed companies, not the underpaid drivers, not the unemployed drivers, not housing, not infrastructure, not clients, nothing. Just one wealthy guy and 'the economy'.
> 
> The Eu didn't help make their home country more viable, nor did it allow or encourage our country to protect workers and self employed. The ex taxi drivers voted Brexit. Even Jeremy's increase on the minimum wage and fines for companies using cheap labour wouldn't help them. They're self employed. What they voted for was to leave the Eu and stop free moment of labour. They don't care about trade deals or the economy. Cameron understood it when he went to the Eu begging for control. Tony Blair understood nothing, but the Eu won't give concessions now to make up for his mistakes in the past.
> 
> This is the kind of thing the Guardian article was talking about and the kind of thing Jeremy talks about. The kind of thing remainers insist doesn't happen. It's xenophobia and migrants are good for the economy.
> 
> We haven't got Brexit yet and the conspiracists, hard left and many brexiters are seeing a deliberate ploy to undermine it.


Good points but under existing terms what would prevent an entrepreneur from the UK moving within the EU doing something similar, say in Spain for example putting the established local firm out of business?

A non UK born person doesn't necessarily undercut an established UK business just because they are not UK born. White British business people do this all the time to each other. How many taxi firms run by white British people had been put out of business by another run by white British people?

That's business for you.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Good points but under existing terms what would prevent an entrepreneur from the UK moving within the EU doing something similar, say in Spain for example putting the established local firm out of business?
> 
> A non UK born person doesn't necessarily undercut an established UK business. White British business people do this all the time to each other. That's business for you....


There isn't enough money or support from the Spanish, or the Spanish government to do it. Plus the English language is a factor. It affected the uk and Brexit voters were worried about how it affected the Uk, not Spain. The Eu could have supported entrepreneurs and businesses in the poorer countries and enabled the less skilled and poorer paid to work in their homelands to improve their standard of living. Instead it enabled the behaviour in the uk. It's not just the firms that were put out of business, but also the drain on the infrastructure, housing and the environment.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Good points but under existing terms what would prevent an entrepreneur from the UK moving within the EU doing something similar, say in Spain for example putting the established local firm out of business?
> 
> A non UK born person doesn't necessarily undercut an established UK business just because they are not UK born. White British business people do this all the time to each other. How many taxi firms run by white British people had been put out of business by another run by white British people?
> 
> That's business for you.


What's with all the "white British people"? Not all British are white you know, like wise not all immigrants are coloured.


----------



## KittenKong

Dr Pepper said:


> What's with all the "white British people"? Not all British are white you know, like wise not all immigrants are coloured.


You're absolutely right of course but some do see "non white" people as being immigrants whether UK born or not.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...ear-regulator-eu-european-union-a7860861.html


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> You're absolutely right of course but some do see "non white" people as being immigrants whether UK born or not.


Only if they a total extremists and I personally don't believe that they number very many in this country

I believe the NF and BNP have less than 20,000 members between them


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> You're absolutely right of course but some do see "non white" people as being immigrants whether UK born or not.


Here we have an obvious case of psychological projection.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...ear-regulator-eu-european-union-a7860861.html
> View attachment 319066


Presumably that falls under the category of "Whatever it takes."

The important thing, apparently, is to Leave.


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> What's with all the "white British people"? Not all British are white you know, like wise not all immigrants are coloured.


Blame David Cameron for this: he was the one who muttered something about ''looking around himself and seeing 'too many white _Christian _faces''', ie too many Brits.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

Pretty much everybody now accepts that the UK is leaving the EU, but what is causing the problems now is, quite simply, the Brextremists in the Tory party.

Look at the Euratom farrago (what an apt word that is). Under cover of "the will of the people" they are putting in jeopardy the availability of cancer treatments.

They are saying to the EU, "We're leaving, and that means we mustn't be bound by the ECJ anywhere."

And they're doing so, apparently, since Mrs Gladys Higginbottom of Walsall, et al, voted Leave because she wants nothing whatsoever to do with an obscure European agency of which she had most certainly never heard when she put her cross on the ballot paper.

What's more, the Brextremists will insist that the onus is on the EU to agree to regulatory changes to Euratom so that leaving won't adversely affect us.

I get that we're leaving, but can we not apply a modicum of common sense while we do so? That's all the ex-Remainer, soft-Brexit supporters are advocating.


----------



## Elles

Oh dear. So remainers are still insisting that people aren't interested in immigration. They think brexiters want to stay in the single market, keep the ecj and keep free movement so at least they can get away. That's why the remainers lost. Instead of addressing why people wanted a referendum and were voting leave, they went into denial. Most people in the uk can't dream of setting up somewhere else. They're too busy visiting food banks after paying extortionate rent on a property that took them 2 years to find.

Leaving the Eu is far too scary isn't it. No one could possibly vote to leave.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Most people in the uk can't dream of setting up somewhere else. They're too busy visiting food banks after paying extortionate rent on a property that took them 2 years to find.
> 
> Leaving the Eu is far too scary isn't it. No one could possibly vote to leave.


Yes, it makes you wonder who'll they'll blame next seeing those nasty foreigners have taken all the available jobs and housing stock. If they're sent back to their own countries who will they blame next when food banks continue and the housing crisis persists?

I thought the Conservative government were responsible for austerity, not immigrants.

You learn something new every day!


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Oh dear. So remainers are still insisting that people aren't interested in immigration. They think brexiters want to stay in the single market, keep the ecj and keep free movement so at least they can get away. That's why the remainers lost.


Yes, you're probably right but didn't the leave campaign insist on the UK remaining in the single market yet reduce immigration as, "They need us more than we need them"?, not forgetting the imminent membership of Turkey with much of their population coming to the UK. Yes, I can understand why people voted leave through their scaremongering.

The EU, and quite rightly in my view, insist remaining in the single market means maintaining freedom of movement. That's applicable to countries like Norway who aren't EU members. The UK government could have opted for that option but chose to maintain their anti immigration stance they've held since 2010. They're prepared to take the UK over a cliff edge over this failed policy....

The survey I posted saw much of the UK population believing retaining the single market is more important than reducing immigration.


----------



## Elles

So an Undecided who's never really liked the idea of the Eu, but isn't sure, is waiting for the food bank to open. She says to the remainer, why vote to remain? 

Why? Says the remainer. So we can retire to Spain and anyway, if we leave we'll all be worse off. 

So persuasive.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> So an Undecided who's never really liked the idea of the Eu, but isn't sure, is waiting for the food bank to open. She says to the remainer, why vote to remain?


Obviously you haven't been reading, plenty of reasons to remain have been posted. Those who voted leave have not been able to provide reasoning other than "feel", nothing based in facts. I feel we would be better off, I feel we would be able to... They fail to acknowledge what the EU has done for the UK. They fail to recognise leaving the EU for the WTO still means restrictions in trade and having to follow rules. Still losing "control" only we don't have any input in the rules created which we must adhere to. What we do is lose influence and a voice at an international level, we have lost credibility as a nation.

Immigration has been raised as one of the major issues concerning people and why they voted leave. Don't you think the government could have simply acknowledged that and demonstrated how the EU has rules in place which the UK does not use. Instead they continue the lie and pretend hard Brexit is the only solution.

Brexit showed dissatisfaction in a few areas when people were asked. Mostly it was scapegoating of the EU. Most could be addressed without pushing the most destructive form of brexit. Most could be solved by the government actually having a clue and being "strong and stable", looking at the best for the country rather than trying to do the best for their political influence.


----------



## Elles

Most people don't read petforums @Goblin

The government didn't use the powers they had, nor concerned themselves with the powers they hadn't until it was too late. They didn't admit it when they were trying to get people to stay in though did they?

Jeremy wanted to leave too and had never wanted to join. His own people criticised his stance. He suggested we stay in to change it. Well if it's not good enough and needs to change, why should we? Not all that great then is it? Jeremy is rather popular, even with remainers who think he's a clever chap and he doesn't like the Eu.

If you're not sure and don't know, you have to take the advice of others and experts and there were plenty who wanted to leave. I'm not sure I'd listen to a biased stranger on a petforums over my elected MP.


----------



## Arnie83

From the Irish Independent:

FORMER Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has said that "no realistic solution" has been put forward in relation to the border with Northern Ireland and that "pigs will fly" if Brexit negotiations are wrapped up before Britain is due to leave the EU.

Mr Ahern also said there's no prospect of Ireland leaving the EU saying: "we're mad but we're not that mad".​
http://www.independent.ie/business/...-were-mad-but-were-not-that-mad-35976398.html

The border problem is going to get bigger in the next few months, I think. The current Irish Taoiseach has suggested there should be a hard border between the island of Ireland and the rest of the UK. The UK govt have suggested that cameras are used at the soft border between NI and Ireland (though I'm not sure what they are supposed to do.) It's a very tricky question.

As for being 'mad but not that mad', I wonder why the Irish have no qualms about membership of the EU, since they are subject to all the same rules and regulations - and then some - that are apparently such anathema to a majority of Britons.


----------



## Elles

Hmmm. I'm not sure given the general trend in Irish jokes, the Irish wanting to stay in would have persuaded the English either. :Bag


----------



## Goblin

@Elles: So what you are saying is that the majority of people ignore facts, prefering prejudice. Ignore experts as we've had enough of them. What does that say about the UK's future long term?


----------



## Elles

Lol, it was also a joke. Never mind.

@Arnie83 seems the most sensible, structured and none judgemental of those who confirm that they voted Remain and post on here imo. Maybe they should have led the Remain campaign.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Lol, it was also a joke. Never mind.
> 
> @Arnie83 seems the most sensible, structured and none judgemental of those who confirm that they voted Remain and post on here imo. Maybe they should have led the Remain campaign.


Thank you; though I think there might be some dissenting fingers hovering over keyboards out in PF land!

But if I'd been in charge of the Remain campaign that would mean I'd have been Prime Minister, in which case there would have been no campaign and no referendum.

Whatever we think of their antics, we elect MPs to research vastly complicated subjects on our behalf and make decisions according to what they believe is in our best interests.

A responsible Prime Minister does not put binary questions on such multi-faceted issues to a population who, with some exceptions, do not have anything like sufficient information to make a considered judgement, and who will therefore vote one way or the other for any number of diverse reasons, some of which are based on lies / exaggerations by those who know that facts won't have the desired effect, and some of which have absolutely nothing to do with the topic whatsoever!

To use an analogy based on Rosie (pictured above left!) a responsible Prime Minister would have kept pulling up the carpet outside the closed door marked Freedom of Movement until it was eventually opened, which it would have been.


----------



## Elles

Well there you go, you've got my vote. 

If our government thought it was not the time to leave the Eu, they shouldn't have brought about the referendum. 

I could understand it if say ukip or an exit favouring labour government were in charge and instead of taking us straight out, they held a vote to see if the majority agreed with them. Give the people the choice before they did it. To hold a referendum on something you're strongly against and have no intention of following through, if it doesn't go your way when you're the PM, was rather naughty.


----------



## Satori

Elles said:


> To hold a referendum on something you're strongly against and have no intention of following through, if it doesn't go your way when you're the PM, was rather naughty.


More than naughty. I would like to put the little toad in the stocks and let the public have their say. I was very appreciative of his early performance with the coalition government but it is clear that he became more interested in 'being' Prime Minister that in actually 'doing' the job and was prepared to go to any lengths to prolong his power trip.

I am still thrilled that we got the right result at the end of the day but that Cameron would take such a risk was a disgrace. Ironically I believe that his own level of over-involvement and his dishonesty and bias throughout the campaign pushed the final vote towards leave. Many leave voters hated his behaviour and many hated him personally I would imagine. Some even thought he led the remain campaign. (Who can name the vacuous nothing who actually did lead the remain campaign btw, without resorting to google?).


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Whatever we think of their antics, we elect MPs to research vastly complicated subjects on our behalf and make decisions according to what they believe is in our best interests.


or *their* best interests .

I'm honestly never going to trust an MP again after this debacle .


----------



## Elles

Have to admit I can't name the Remain leader. I vaguely remember Nigel going off on his own and Boris and Gove's antics, but I can't tell you who led Remain. :Shy


----------



## Satori

Elles said:


> Have to admit I can't name the Remain leader. I vaguely remember Nigel going off on his own and Boris and Gove's antics, but I can't tell you who led Remain. :Shy


He obviously did a great job then. Perhaps his picture would help?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Reprieve for few more years? Then proverbial hits the fan.. Love the admission that we are just talking about damage limitations, where obviously wrong decision was made after campaign of soundbites and lies, we have no courage to admit it and just stop damaging our economy further.


----------



## Elles

Tbh reading the news today, it's too late. Uber drivers in London raping women, riots and petrol bombs thrown at the police, because a criminal died trying to escape custody and hide his nefarious activities. Criminal negligence burning people to death in a high rise building and on petforums an 87 year old granny afraid to leave the house. 

The government only concerned about how Brexit might affect the economy of those wealthy enough to worry about it, are listening to soothsayers and delaying as long as possible.

We aren't doomed because of Brexit, we're just doomed. 

You stupid woman. People didn't want 'life as normal'. If they did they'd have voted Remain.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Tbh reading the news today, it's too late. Uber drivers in London raping women, riots and petrol bombs thrown at the police, because a criminal died trying to escape custody and hide his nefarious activities. Criminal negligence burning people to death in a high rise building and on petforums an 87 year old granny afraid to leave the house.
> 
> The government only concerned about how Brexit might affect the economy of those wealthy enough to worry about it, are listening to soothsayers and delaying as long as possible.
> 
> We aren't doomed because of Brexit, we're just doomed.
> 
> You stupid woman. People didn't want 'life as normal'. If they did they'd have voted Remain.


 Be careful what you wish for...

Riots are yet to come...
Remember 2008?

Was under impression it was home made hooligans...
Alas...
People wanted 350 mln for NHS as promised on the buses.

Oh, and the life as it was before 1973.
Steelworks and mines. 
Or even further back, when Britain was Great and Britannia ruled the waves....
That and Britain First.

Believing in populist demagogues is not just British prerogative.
Look what is going on in Poland, Hungary or Turkey.

Saying that Merkel's decision on immigrants ( which , sorry she vould only make on behalf of Germany, not other countries, unless they are seen as subservient) has LOT to answer for.
That tipped UK vote, Polish vote,Hungarian vote etc..

No one likes being bossed by Germany. Again.
Complete political deafness, or really astute politics.
Considering Merkel as very smart indeed I suspect the latter.

Hope you will visit one day and we can have good natter then...


----------



## Goblin




----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Reprieve for few more years? Then proverbial hits the fan.. Love the admission that we are just talking about damage limitations, where obviously wrong decision was made after campaign of soundbites and lies, we have no courage to admit it and just stop damaging our economy further.


May and her like remain in cloud cuckoo land. I'm sure by now the EU and the 27 member states are as keen to see the UK exit as hardened Brexiteers are.

The government and indeed the opposition are still deeply divided over what exactly Brexit will mean and what they want, even amongst Brexiteers in the cabinet.

2019 is the date of the UK withdrawal. It would be a miracle if, "life existed as before" after then.....


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> May and her like remain in cloud cuckoo land. I'm sure by now the EU and the 27 member states are as keen to see the UK exit as hardened Brexiteers are.
> 
> The government and indeed the opposition are still deeply divided over what exactly Brexit will mean and what they want, even amongst Brexiteers in the cabinet.
> 
> 2019 is the date of the UK withdrawal. It would be a miracle if, "life existed as before" after then.....


But as some pointed from Leave camp they did not want life like before...
They wanted a CHANGE.
Should have been more careful with what they wished for....
Change will definitely happen.
Now May talks about few more" normal years"?
What joy...then what?
350mln weekly for NHS and no more immigrants?

Or land of curved cucumbers ( still in the field) and straight bananas ( hope you can afford them).


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Or land of curved cucumbers ( still in the field) and straight bananas ( hope you can afford them).


Indeed. I got petrol on my way to work and wondered when they would start selling it in Gallons again!


----------



## Elles

Oh I wish. This litres thing does my head in. Decimalisation of currency = good, makes it easier for numpties like me to add up. Petrol in litres = bad. I used to know how many miles I got to the gallon, now I have to work out how many miles I get to the quid and adjust it slightly for price changes. My head can't cope with litres at all. :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Oh I wish. This litres thing does my head in. Decimalisation of currency = good, makes it easier for numpties like me to add up. Petrol in litres = bad. I used to know how many miles I got to the gallon, now I have to work out how many miles I get to the quid and adjust it slightly for price changes. My head can't cope with litres at all. :Hilarious


Imagine to adjust it to the shilling.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Imagine to adjust it to the shilling.


That's what I meant about liking decimalisation, I meant of the currency.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> That's what I meant about liking decimalisation, I meant of the currency.


 Decimalisation started in 1971 so it's not likely to change back . I hope not .

Got used to metres and kilograms but for some reason still translate the temperature back to Fahrenheit.

yay its 80 F , doesnt sound as hot when you say yay , its 26 C !


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Oh I wish. This litres thing does my head in. Decimalisation of currency = good, makes it easier for numpties like me to add up. Petrol in litres = bad. I used to know how many miles I got to the gallon, now I have to work out how many miles I get to the quid and adjust it slightly for price changes. My head can't cope with litres at all. :Hilarious


I can cope with
currency
weights 
measurements

But litres :Arghh


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Got used to metres and kilograms but for some reason still translate the temperature back to Fahrenheit.
> 
> yay its 80 F , doesnt sound as hot when you say yay , its 26 C !


I have a theory that most people (of a certain age; including me) use Fahrenheit for hot "It's 82 today!" but Celsius for cold "It's minus 2!" because it just sounds better that way.


----------



## KittenKong

I'm fairly good with both metric and imperial generally, the exception being Fahrenheit.

Where on earth did they get a freezing point of 32 and a boiling point of 212 from?

Give me Centigrade any day!


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Where on earth did they get a freezing point of 32 and a boiling point of 212 from?


96 , which was arbitrarily chosen as body temp (later refined) is the product of 8 and 12 so easier to work with fractions. Other things fit into the scale with no special significance to the freezing point of pure water.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I have a theory that most people (of a certain age; including me) use Fahrenheit for hot "It's 82 today!" but Celsius for cold "It's minus 2!" because it just sounds better that way.


:Hilarious yeah .


----------



## Goblin

Remember that leave mantra.. UK cannot do anything in the EU we simply are dictated to. Many Brexiteer's can turn off as I know facts are disturbing:


----------



## Arnie83

Theresa May's "official spokesman" has confirmed today that free movement will end in March 2019. Confirming, therefore, what they've said before; that we will also leave the single market and the customs union.

So the only thing stopping a hard Brexit will be the EU suspending their rules for a couple of years, thereby helping us to remain competitive. And if they don't, it will be because they are being obstructive and unreasonable.

This isn't going to end well. Or to rephrase; this isn't going to start well!


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> Lol, it was also a joke. Never mind.
> 
> @Arnie83 seems the most sensible, structured and none judgemental of those who confirm that they voted Remain and post on here imo. Maybe they should have led the Remain campaign.


Hear hear! Never tire of reading arnies posts.


----------



## cheekyscrip

And pound keeps falling....
With every piece of Brexit news....


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> And pound keeps falling....
> With every piece of Brexit news....


It's picked up a bit against the US dollar but it's not performing too well against the euro.

In the 1st quarter of 2017 every eurozone country grew faster than the UK, and it'll be interesting to see if that has continued in the 2nd.

Also interesting is how the Remain "doom-mongering" re the UK economy that is so roundly criticised has apparently been mirrored by the Leave doom-mongering re the eurozone.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Hear hear! Never tire of reading arnies posts.


Of course not, he hasn't actually asked you for facts supporting leave yet which you cannot answer has he 



Arnie83 said:


> It's picked up a bit against the US dollar


No shock there is it. U.S. isn't exactly a highpoint of being steady at the moment due to a certain popularist leader.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Of course not, he hasn't actually ask you for facts supporting leave yet which you cannot answer has he
> 
> No shock there is it. U.S. isn't exactly a highpoint of being steady at the moment due to a certain popularist leader.


 may be his posts are better executed next to yours! he doesn't go round and round in circles and doesn't diss people for their choice on how they voted. Many of us have stated time and time again that we owe no explanation to you! There's a fact sunbeam, not today not tomorrow not ever! get used to it!


----------



## samuelsmiles

Arnie83 said:


> It's picked up a bit against the US dollar but it's not performing too well against the euro.
> 
> In the 1st quarter of 2017 every eurozone country grew faster than the UK, and *it'll be interesting to see if that has continued in the 2nd.*
> 
> Also interesting is how the Remain "doom-mongering" re the UK economy that is so roundly criticised has apparently been mirrored by the Leave doom-mongering re the eurozone.


What do you hope? Honestly.


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> What do you hope? Honestly.


I want to see the EU succeed. I want to see it reform (as it always has, if apparently slowly at times and not as all of us would like; even too fast and much for some) and to expand. I would very much like to see it as an infant that eventually becomes a grown-up, united Europe. A Europe where each country has its own identity and its 'regional' decentralised powers, but one which is so closely tied together that conflict between the nations is as impossible as Florida declaring and waging war on Georgia.

I believe that Brexit is a, hopefully minor, hiccup on the road to greater integration - not subsumption - so while I want the UK to be successful (I've got my retirement to consider!) I would rather like the EU to do better, since that will further encourage its continued cohesion and expansion.

Mind you, the second quarter GDP figures won't be the definitive pointer to a long-term future!


----------



## samuelsmiles

No, of course not, but you were keen to use the 1st quarter as pointer to the UK suffering


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> No, of course not, but you were keen to use the 1st quarter as pointer to the UK suffering


Keenness to point out UK suffering? That is something of a personal interpretation I think. We aren't 'suffering', as far as I can tell.

And as for keenness, I just like facts, and in the 1st quarter the UK was bottom of the league. If I was keen to have a go at the UK I might have added the suffix "even Greece performed better than us". But I wouldn't do that.


----------



## samuelsmiles

How about the fact (amongst many more) that BMW is choosing the UK to build their new electric car here just a few short months away from Brexit.


----------



## 1290423

samuelsmiles said:


> How about the fact (amongst many more) that BMW is choosing the UK to build their new electric car here just a few short months away from Brexit.


Haven't toyota invested silly money into their derby plant too? Yes, I know there was mentioned over fears over tariffs but surely they wouldn't have invested the sum they have if they were that concerned, would they?


----------



## samuelsmiles

Yes, I don't understand why so many businesses are investing in the UK when we're so close to falling off the cliff. My guess is we'll be just fine, and BMW won't choose Greece to build their new electric car in.


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> How about the fact (amongst many more) that BMW is choosing the UK to build their new electric car here just a few short months away from Brexit.


Not sure what you are trying to prove, since I said ...


Arnie83 said:


> We aren't 'suffering', as far as I can tell.


There may have been some 'remainers' who predicted that no business would ever invest in Britain again, that every manufacturer would cease operations and all financial services companies would decamp to the continent, leaving the UK as a wasteland of rusting machinery and empty offices.

I wasn't one of them.

So BMW building electric cars here is no great surprise - though I would caution that things change, and if car parts are subject to tariffs every time they cross the UK / EU border that decision might be subject to revision.

But now and after Brexit companies will still expand, and invest and do business here. Some, because of Brexit, will do so less than they otherwise would. For many it will make no difference at all. My judgement is that very few will do so more because of Brexit, but that is just a personal opinion, and you may think differently.

I think we will do fine after Brexit. Just not as well as we would have done had we stayed in.


----------



## samuelsmiles

DT said:


> Haven't toyota invested silly money into their derby plant too? Yes, I know there was mentioned over fears over tariffs but surely they wouldn't have invested the sum they have if they were that concerned, would they?





Arnie83 said:


> Not sure what you are trying to prove, since I said ...
> 
> There may have been some 'remainers' who predicted that no business would ever invest in Britain again, that every manufacturer would cease operations and all financial services companies would decamp to the continent, leaving the UK as a wasteland of rusting machinery and empty offices.
> 
> I wasn't one of them.
> 
> So BMW building electric cars here is no great surprise - though I would caution that things change, and if car parts are subject to tariffs every time they cross the UK / EU border that decision might be subject to revision.
> 
> But now and after Brexit companies will still expand, and invest and do business here. Some, because of Brexit, will do so less than they otherwise would. For many it will make no difference at all. My judgement is that very few will do so more because of Brexit, but that is just a personal opinion, and you may think differently.
> 
> *I think we will do fine after Brexit. Just not as well as we would have done had we stayed in*.


That's fine, and that's where we differ - I'm positive we're better off out.

As am I from this thread.


----------



## 1290423

samuelsmiles said:


> That's fine, and that's where we differ - I'm positive we're better off out.
> 
> As am I from this thread.


That's exactly how I feel Samuel but do admit I find arnies posts to be interesting and never tire at reading them


----------



## Satori

*The Good News on Brexit They're Not Telling You*
By DANIEL HANNAN JULY 31, 2017

LONDON - On July 24, trade talks began between Britain and America. All right, they weren't formally called trade talks: As long as Britain is still in the European Union, it is supposed to contract out all its commercial decisions to Brussels. Officially, the United States trade representative, Robert Lighthizer, and the British trade secretary, Liam Fox, met for broad discussions about what might happen when Brexit takes effect in 2019.

Still, both sides can see the prize. For decades, there have been fitful negotiations between Washington and Brussels on trade liberalization, but they have always run up against the protectionism of France and some southern European states.

Between Britain and America, there are few such problems. Each country is the other's biggest investor: About a million Americans work for British-owned companies, and a similar number of Britons work for American-owned companies. A liberal trade deal, based on mutual recognition of standards and qualifications, will bolster both economies.

Prime Minister Theresa May keeps saying she wants Britain to be a "global leader in free trade." In parallel to the talks with Washington, Britain is starting discussions with China, Japan, India, Australia and others. Global trade deals should supplement rather than replace Britain's economic relationship with the remaining 27 European Union states. The nonmember Switzerland, for example, exports nearly five times as much per head as Britain does, mostly to the European Union, while simultaneously having bilateral trade deals around the world.

The idea of a more global Britain emerging from the European Union may strike you as jarring. Much of the commentary over the past year, at least outside Britain, has portrayed Brexit as a nativist and protectionist phenomenon. I keep reading - often in the pages of this newspaper - that the vote was overwhelmingly about immigration.

In fact, opinion polls before and after the vote concurred that the main issue for Leavers was democracy. An exit poll of 12,369 people, for example, found that 49 percent of Leavers had been motivated by the desire to bring decision making back to Britain, and only 33 percent by wanting more control of immigration.

I've learned in politics that almost no one listens to the other side. Rather than going to the source, people read allies' reports of what the other side is supposed to have said. If a British person tells you that the vote was "all about immigration," I can almost guarantee that you are talking to a Remainer. Those among my friends who voted to stay in the European Union didn't weigh and then dismiss the economic and democratic cases against membership; they never heard them.

The same confirmation bias can be seen in their determination to find bad economic news. Here is a selection of British reports from the past two weeks: Unemployment fell again, as every month since the vote, to 1.49 million (from 1.67 million in June of last year); manufacturing orders are at their highest levelsince August 1988; retail sales, official figures show, are up 2.9 percent on this time last year.

Exports were up 10 percent year-on-year in May, helped by the long-overdue correction of the exchange rate. Remainers like to point to the fall in sterling, but rarely mention that, before the vote, the International Monetary Fund and the Bank of England agreed that Britain's currency, seen as a haven from the travails of the euro, was artificially expensive.

Continental Europeans evidently still regard the British economy as attractive; more of them are working in Britain than ever before. As for the supposed decline of London, a number of European banks, including Deutsche Bank and ING, have grown their operations here since the referendum. Last year, Wells Fargo spent £300 million (about $392 million) on its new European headquarters - in London. The latest survey from the Robert Walters City Jobs Index, for July, reported that hiring in financial services was up 13 percent year-on-year.

You may think I'm prone to a confirmation bias of my own. But it's only fair to contrast what has happened since the Brexit vote with what was predicted during the campaign. Remain campaigners told us to expect a recession in 2016; in fact, Britain grew faster in the six months after the referendum than in the six months before. They told us that the FTSE 100 index of leading companies' share prices would collapse; in fact, British stocks performedstrongly after the Brexit vote. They told us that Scotland would leave Britain; in fact, support for separatism has collapsed, and the Scottish first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has shelved her planned independence referendum.

Most people, whichever way they voted, are celebrating the good news. But a few Euro-fanatics, disproportionately prominent on the BBC and at The Financial Times, are acting like doomsday cultists, constantly postponing the date of their promised apocalypse. First, a Leave vote was supposed to wreck the economy. Then, it became "wait until we begin the disengagement." Now it's "wait until you see what a bad deal we get from the European Union."

It's odd. The people who are the most pro-union are generally the most convinced that the union will act in a self-harming way out of spite. I have a higher opinion of our European allies. But even if I didn't, I'd still expect a deal. Adam Smith observed that "it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." It is not from the benevolence of the European Union that we expect a free-trade agreement: Exchange makes everyone richer.

If you want a picture of Britain's future relationship with the European Union, think of Canada's with the United States. Canadians have a type of federation on their doorstep that they decline to join, but with which they enjoy the closest possible diplomatic, military and economic ties. Two years from now, in a similar vein, the European Union will have lost a bad tenant and gained a good neighbor.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Got used to metres and kilograms but for some reason still translate the temperature back to Fahrenheit.


. . . maybe because it makes it sound warmer and you like warm weather? Speed in kilometers p.h is the one I can't cope with (even abroad).


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> But litres :Arghh


Litres!! OK if it's a liquid, but what really gets me going is things like cat litter in liters?:Arghh OK cat pee, yes, but not the litter.


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> . . . maybe because it makes it sound warmer and you like warm weather? Speed in kilometers p.h is the one I can't cope with (even abroad).


Hang on, I'm only just come to terms with decimalization I'm still in pounds shillings and pence and still convert 75p to 15 shilling etc etc etc


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> *The Good News on Brexit They're Not Telling You*
> By DANIEL HANNAN JULY 31, 2017
> 
> LONDON - On July 24, trade talks began between Britain and America. All right, they weren't formally called trade talks: As long as Britain is still in the European Union, it is supposed to contract out all its commercial decisions to Brussels. Officially, the United States trade representative, Robert Lighthizer, and the British trade secretary, Liam Fox, met for broad discussions about what might happen when Brexit takes effect in 2019.
> 
> Still, both sides can see the prize. For decades, there have been fitful negotiations between Washington and Brussels on trade liberalization, but they have always run up against the protectionism of France and some southern European states.
> 
> Between Britain and America, there are few such problems. Each country is the other's biggest investor: About a million Americans work for British-owned companies, and a similar number of Britons work for American-owned companies. A liberal trade deal, based on mutual recognition of standards and qualifications, will bolster both economies.
> 
> Prime Minister Theresa May keeps saying she wants Britain to be a "global leader in free trade." In parallel to the talks with Washington, Britain is starting discussions with China, Japan, India, Australia and others. Global trade deals should supplement rather than replace Britain's economic relationship with the remaining 27 European Union states. The nonmember Switzerland, for example, exports nearly five times as much per head as Britain does, mostly to the European Union, while simultaneously having bilateral trade deals around the world.
> 
> The idea of a more global Britain emerging from the European Union may strike you as jarring. Much of the commentary over the past year, at least outside Britain, has portrayed Brexit as a nativist and protectionist phenomenon. I keep reading - often in the pages of this newspaper - that the vote was overwhelmingly about immigration.
> 
> In fact, opinion polls before and after the vote concurred that the main issue for Leavers was democracy. An exit poll of 12,369 people, for example, found that 49 percent of Leavers had been motivated by the desire to bring decision making back to Britain, and only 33 percent by wanting more control of immigration.
> 
> I've learned in politics that almost no one listens to the other side. Rather than going to the source, people read allies' reports of what the other side is supposed to have said. If a British person tells you that the vote was "all about immigration," I can almost guarantee that you are talking to a Remainer. Those among my friends who voted to stay in the European Union didn't weigh and then dismiss the economic and democratic cases against membership; they never heard them.
> 
> The same confirmation bias can be seen in their determination to find bad economic news. Here is a selection of British reports from the past two weeks: Unemployment fell again, as every month since the vote, to 1.49 million (from 1.67 million in June of last year); manufacturing orders are at their highest levelsince August 1988; retail sales, official figures show, are up 2.9 percent on this time last year.
> 
> Exports were up 10 percent year-on-year in May, helped by the long-overdue correction of the exchange rate. Remainers like to point to the fall in sterling, but rarely mention that, before the vote, the International Monetary Fund and the Bank of England agreed that Britain's currency, seen as a haven from the travails of the euro, was artificially expensive.
> 
> Continental Europeans evidently still regard the British economy as attractive; more of them are working in Britain than ever before. As for the supposed decline of London, a number of European banks, including Deutsche Bank and ING, have grown their operations here since the referendum. Last year, Wells Fargo spent £300 million (about $392 million) on its new European headquarters - in London. The latest survey from the Robert Walters City Jobs Index, for July, reported that hiring in financial services was up 13 percent year-on-year.
> 
> You may think I'm prone to a confirmation bias of my own. But it's only fair to contrast what has happened since the Brexit vote with what was predicted during the campaign. Remain campaigners told us to expect a recession in 2016; in fact, Britain grew faster in the six months after the referendum than in the six months before. They told us that the FTSE 100 index of leading companies' share prices would collapse; in fact, British stocks performedstrongly after the Brexit vote. They told us that Scotland would leave Britain; in fact, support for separatism has collapsed, and the Scottish first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has shelved her planned independence referendum.
> 
> Most people, whichever way they voted, are celebrating the good news. But a few Euro-fanatics, disproportionately prominent on the BBC and at The Financial Times, are acting like doomsday cultists, constantly postponing the date of their promised apocalypse. First, a Leave vote was supposed to wreck the economy. Then, it became "wait until we begin the disengagement." Now it's "wait until you see what a bad deal we get from the European Union."
> 
> It's odd. The people who are the most pro-union are generally the most convinced that the union will act in a self-harming way out of spite. I have a higher opinion of our European allies. But even if I didn't, I'd still expect a deal. Adam Smith observed that "it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." It is not from the benevolence of the European Union that we expect a free-trade agreement: Exchange makes everyone richer.
> 
> If you want a picture of Britain's future relationship with the European Union, think of Canada's with the United States. Canadians have a type of federation on their doorstep that they decline to join, but with which they enjoy the closest possible diplomatic, military and economic ties. Two years from now, in a similar vein, the European Union will have lost a bad tenant and gained a good neighbor.


This Daniel Hannan? lol


----------



## noushka05

This whole article from dyed in the wool Conservative Matthew Parris is devastating.










But this particular passage is a howl of despair. (via twitter)


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> *The Good News on Brexit They're Not Telling You*
> By DANIEL HANNAN JULY 31, 2017
> 
> LONDON - On July 24, trade talks began between Britain and America. All right, they weren't formally called trade talks: As long as Britain is still in the European Union, it is supposed to contract out all its commercial decisions to Brussels. Officially, the United States trade representative, Robert Lighthizer, and the British trade secretary, Liam Fox, met for broad discussions about what might happen when Brexit takes effect in 2019.
> 
> Still, both sides can see the prize. For decades, there have been fitful negotiations between Washington and Brussels on trade liberalization, but they have always run up against the protectionism of France and some southern European states.
> 
> Between Britain and America, there are few such problems. Each country is the other's biggest investor: About a million Americans work for British-owned companies, and a similar number of Britons work for American-owned companies. A liberal trade deal, based on mutual recognition of standards and qualifications, will bolster both economies.
> 
> Prime Minister Theresa May keeps saying she wants Britain to be a "global leader in free trade." In parallel to the talks with Washington, Britain is starting discussions with China, Japan, India, Australia and others. Global trade deals should supplement rather than replace Britain's economic relationship with the remaining 27 European Union states. The nonmember Switzerland, for example, exports nearly five times as much per head as Britain does, mostly to the European Union, while simultaneously having bilateral trade deals around the world.
> 
> The idea of a more global Britain emerging from the European Union may strike you as jarring. Much of the commentary over the past year, at least outside Britain, has portrayed Brexit as a nativist and protectionist phenomenon. I keep reading - often in the pages of this newspaper - that the vote was overwhelmingly about immigration.
> 
> In fact, opinion polls before and after the vote concurred that the main issue for Leavers was democracy. An exit poll of 12,369 people, for example, found that 49 percent of Leavers had been motivated by the desire to bring decision making back to Britain, and only 33 percent by wanting more control of immigration.
> 
> I've learned in politics that almost no one listens to the other side. Rather than going to the source, people read allies' reports of what the other side is supposed to have said. If a British person tells you that the vote was "all about immigration," I can almost guarantee that you are talking to a Remainer. Those among my friends who voted to stay in the European Union didn't weigh and then dismiss the economic and democratic cases against membership; they never heard them.
> 
> The same confirmation bias can be seen in their determination to find bad economic news. Here is a selection of British reports from the past two weeks: Unemployment fell again, as every month since the vote, to 1.49 million (from 1.67 million in June of last year); manufacturing orders are at their highest levelsince August 1988; retail sales, official figures show, are up 2.9 percent on this time last year.
> 
> Exports were up 10 percent year-on-year in May, helped by the long-overdue correction of the exchange rate. Remainers like to point to the fall in sterling, but rarely mention that, before the vote, the International Monetary Fund and the Bank of England agreed that Britain's currency, seen as a haven from the travails of the euro, was artificially expensive.
> 
> Continental Europeans evidently still regard the British economy as attractive; more of them are working in Britain than ever before. As for the supposed decline of London, a number of European banks, including Deutsche Bank and ING, have grown their operations here since the referendum. Last year, Wells Fargo spent £300 million (about $392 million) on its new European headquarters - in London. The latest survey from the Robert Walters City Jobs Index, for July, reported that hiring in financial services was up 13 percent year-on-year.
> 
> You may think I'm prone to a confirmation bias of my own. But it's only fair to contrast what has happened since the Brexit vote with what was predicted during the campaign. Remain campaigners told us to expect a recession in 2016; in fact, Britain grew faster in the six months after the referendum than in the six months before. They told us that the FTSE 100 index of leading companies' share prices would collapse; in fact, British stocks performedstrongly after the Brexit vote. They told us that Scotland would leave Britain; in fact, support for separatism has collapsed, and the Scottish first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has shelved her planned independence referendum.
> 
> Most people, whichever way they voted, are celebrating the good news. But a few Euro-fanatics, disproportionately prominent on the BBC and at The Financial Times, are acting like doomsday cultists, constantly postponing the date of their promised apocalypse. First, a Leave vote was supposed to wreck the economy. Then, it became "wait until we begin the disengagement." Now it's "wait until you see what a bad deal we get from the European Union."
> 
> It's odd. The people who are the most pro-union are generally the most convinced that the union will act in a self-harming way out of spite. I have a higher opinion of our European allies. But even if I didn't, I'd still expect a deal. Adam Smith observed that "it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." It is not from the benevolence of the European Union that we expect a free-trade agreement: Exchange makes everyone richer.
> 
> If you want a picture of Britain's future relationship with the European Union, think of Canada's with the United States. Canadians have a type of federation on their doorstep that they decline to join, but with which they enjoy the closest possible diplomatic, military and economic ties. Two years from now, in a similar vein, the European Union will have lost a bad tenant and gained a good neighbor.


I wondered whether to put that in here when I read it yesterday, but thought the comments it provoked me to include might be a little provocative. But what the hey ...

I like the way Hannan self-deprecatingly suggests "You may think I'm prone to a confirmation bias of my own" and then proves it with an interpretation of events specifically designed to look pro-Brexit to the casual and uninformed reader.

I like the 'fitful' trade negotiations that the EU and USA have had; otherwise known as TTIP. And the suggestion that it will all be so much easier with just the two of us "A liberal trade deal, based on mutual recognition of standards and qualifications, will bolster both economies." Standards including those for chlorinated chicken and GM food, presumably. It will indeed be simpler if we just accede to all the US demands. And why not? Their economy is much larger than ours so their bargaining position is much stronger than when they had to negotiate with the even larger EU.

I like the factual mention that the stock market rose, but I can't see the qualification that most FTSE100 companies have their balance sheets denominated in dollars, so that when the pound crashed (which was long overdue and therefore, apparently, a tick in the box for Brexit) their value rose 15% overnight.

I like the way the incorrect economic predictions are highlighted but not the way Hannan ignores the immediate post-referendum stimulus from the Bank of England and the change of Chancellor who introduced economic policies specifically designed to prevent a slow-down and extend the deficit reduction timetable (but don't worry, the next generation will pay for the extra borrowing). Funny how those extra costs are never laid at the door of Brexit when people claim that 'Nothing has happened!' because of the vote.

I will freely admit that the continued consumer spending came as a surprise to me, but I don't like the way it is more and more based on credit, so that the economy is looking very similar to the pre-crash one of 2007; something which Hannan omits to mention.

I'm confused that his friends never heard the economic and 'democratic' arguments for Brexit. Of course I don't know who his friends are, but I can certainly form an opinion of them based on that snippet of information.

But most of all I am amused by the way that the main issue is described as 'democracy'. Americans like the word of course, and it is so much more acceptable than tribalism. Yes, on rare occasions we were outvoted in the European Parliament, but that's the definition of democracy; the ones with the most votes win. Just because it is foreign MEPs doing it doesn't change that fact. What Hannan means,like many others, is that he doesn't want foreigners to be able to outvote us. That's not his sort of democracy at all. But if you put it that way it doesn't sound quite so noble, does it.


----------



## noushka05

We voted ourselves stupid.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> *I like* the way Hannan self-deprecatingly suggests "You may think I'm prone to a confirmation bias of my own"
> 
> *I like* the 'fitful' trade negotiations that the EU and USA have had; otherwise known as TTIP.
> 
> *I like* the factual mention that the stock market rose,
> 
> *I like *the way the incorrect economic predictions are highlighted


Thought you would like it.


----------



## Elles

If a conservative politician thinks the NHS is a relic, that's got nothing to do with the Eu or Brexit. If the conservatives did run our NHS down, the Eu wouldn't do anything about it. So the Eu chooses to give some of our money to science, how nice of them. Our scientists collaborate with Eu scientists. Chinese scientists collaborate with Eu scientists too. Uk scientists will no doubt continue to do so after Brexit.

The Remain camp still isn't demonstrating anything we can't do for ourselves.

How about something like 'We the conservatives don't put any of the profits of Eu membership into the NHS because we want to use the money to pay for something else, it's not the Eu's fault.' You could make a handy slogan out of it and paint it on the side of a bus.

Talking about the Eu giving some of our money to universities isn't particularly persuasive and just leads to people thinking university professors are biased and shouldn't be listened to.

The continued consumer spending it's rumoured is down to credit and particularly those expensive car loans. We are warned that we're heading for another crash because of it, but it's neither the Eu nor Brexit's fault. It's down to people who get a new car they can't afford every three years.

I'm pleased to see that the leave voters aren't being blamed for any potential failure on politicians' and negotiators' part to deliver Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The continued consumer spending it's rumoured is down to credit and particularly those expensive car loans. We are warned that we're heading for another crash because of it, but it's neither the Eu nor Brexit's fault. It's down to people who get a new car they can't afford every three years.


That is very true. But neither can the spending be used (as Hannan did) as an example of how well the economy is doing. The spending has been unexpected, but for me it's a warning of danger ahead, not a sign that everything in the garden is lovely!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> That is very true. But neither can the spending be used (as Hannan did) as an example of how well the economy is doing. The spending has been unexpected, but for me it's a warning of danger ahead, not a sign that everything in the garden is lovely!


Exactly.  Totally agree. I hope we're both wrong. :Eggonface


----------



## Happy Paws2

Siskin said:


> My signature is from my files





Calvine said:


> Litres!! OK if it's a liquid, but what really gets me going is things like cat litter in liters?:Arghh OK cat pee, yes, but not the litter.


I know what you mean, to many solids are sold in liters now, WHY do they do this.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Happy Paws said:


> I know what you mean, to many solids are sold in liters now, WHY do they do this.


It's a ridiculous way to sell, it should be illegal because you can't sell solids by volume because depending on how the fall and settle the quantity can't be guaranteed. When you buy lose products in a shop those scales have to professionally calibrated and are even gravity adjusted to be accurate. Yet when you buy your cat litter you get what is nothing more than a random amount in the bag.

As for buying petrol in litres, if the forecourts wanted to they could sell by the gallon, just so long as the price per litre is also mentioned. They've chosen not to though since the off for some reason.

To be fair all this EU malarky has never really come together in the UK.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> It's a ridiculous way to sell, it should be illegal because you can't sell solids by volume because depending on how the fall and settle the quantity can't be guaranteed. When you buy lose products in a shop those scales have to professionally calibrated and are even gravity adjusted to be accurate. Yet when you buy your cat litter you get what is nothing more than a random amount in the bag.
> 
> As for buying petrol in litres, if the forecourts wanted to they could sell by the gallon, just so long as the price per litre is also mentioned. They've chosen not to though since the off for some reason.
> 
> To be fair all this EU malarky has never really come together in the UK.


The government have officially supported metrication in the UK since 1965, so the EU is probably not entirely to blame.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> The government have officially supported metrication in the UK since 1965, so the EU is probably not entirely to blame.


Which governments in particular? I know the building and related trades like it for obvious reasons. Beyond that I can't see much support. When did fuel change to litres, late 70's was it? We still use miles and mph on our roads. Furlongs at the races and we have pints of beer and milk. We buy products by the dozen.

My point wasn't blaming the EU for metrication, but pointing out that the UK hasn't ever really embraced the EU (or metrication). Add to that we still drive on the left and use sterling and it doesn't really look like any government has fully supported the EU, or maybe they sensibly realised the public never supported it (apart from Mr Cameron of course!)?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Not all Tories ....


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Which governments in particular? I know the building and related trades like it for obvious reasons. Beyond that I can't see much support. When did fuel change to litres, late 70's was it? We still use miles and mph on our roads. Furlongs at the races and we have pints of beer and milk. We buy products by the dozen.
> 
> My point wasn't blaming the EU for metrication, but pointing out that the UK hasn't ever really embraced the EU (or metrication). Add to that we still drive on the left and use sterling and it doesn't really look like any government has fully supported the EU, or maybe they sensibly realised the public never supported it (apart from Mr Cameron of course!)?


Regarding the EU I couldn't agree more. Successive governments have been, at best, lukewarm in their enthusiasm, preferring to use the EU as a convenient scapegoat and playing to the agenda of the right wing press. Hanging around on the sidelines, demanding - and getting - opt-outs rather than engaging.

If we had got stuck in and tried to change things from the centre, who knows what we might have achieved.


----------



## Elles

You talk about the right wing press, don't forget Jeremy Corbyn, and the hard left/socialists were very anti Eu. Some only started to come round and talk about changing the Eu from the inside when some member countries had socialist governments and after the Eastern European countries joined.


----------



## Arnie83

Some good news ...

*Dave Atkinson, UK head of manufacturing at Lloyds Bank Commercial Banking,* *has welcomed the recovery in UK factory growth last month:*:

"Firms are facing uncertainty around the UK's future trading relationship with the EU but figures suggest exports are rising with a year-on-year increase of 15 per cent. This is partly a result of the weaker pound but also because more manufacturers are looking at new international markets beyond Europe.

"The news that BMW is planning to build the new electronic Mini at its plant in Oxfordshire is a timely vote of confidence in our industry's word-class expertise.

"Manufacturers are planning positively for the future with continued investment, product development and new business at home and away."

I do find myself wondering what was stopping them from 'looking at new international markets beyond Europe' before, since nothing has changed on that front.


----------



## Elles

I think it's becoming more and more apparent that leavers didn't have to do much, or prove why they thought leave was best. It was remainers who needed enthusiasm and to rally the troops, to prove why we should stay in. I think they thought they were home and dry, or weren't that bothered and that only a small number of ukip voters would actually vote to leave.

Since the vote I haven't seen any particular evidence brought forward that I think would persuade a leaver to now vote Remain and to beg for a second chance.

As has been pointed out, no one can even remember who led the Remain campaign, if they even knew in the first place. Poor show.

Remainers were doomed from the start.


----------



## Arnie83

Sorry @Elles : I edited a duplicated post, and then the original disappeared!

But I agreed with you: Brown was less than enthusiastic about the EU. Only Blair was in favour.


----------



## Elles

The weaker pound for us. We didn't sell much to America before Brexit, our sales since have more than tripled. Beforehand our prices were similar to, or more expensive than us companies manufacturing a similar product. If post Brexit trade deals make trade with the us, or other international markets even more lucrative it's worth investing and sales in this unsettled period can pay for it.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think it's becoming more and more apparent that leavers didn't have to do much, or prove why they thought leave was best. It was remainers who needed enthusiasm and to rally the troops, to prove why we should stay in. I think they thought they were home and dry, or weren't that bothered and that only a small number of ukip voters would actually vote to leave.
> 
> Since the vote I haven't seen any particular evidence brought forward that I think would persuade a leaver to now vote Remain and to beg for a second chance.
> 
> As has been pointed out, no one can even remember who led the Remain campaign, if they even knew in the first place. Poor show.
> 
> Remainers were doomed from the start.


To respond to that backwards: Stuart Rose (ex M&S) led Britain Stronger in Europe, but Cameron was de facto leader of the Remain campaign.

I think a number of people voted Leave because it was a vote against Cameron / a government that had imposed 6 years of austerity on them and they wanted to give him a bloody nose. Some of those might have changed their minds now that they've seen what a mess the current government are making of Brexit, and the realisation that as well as damaging Cameron's nose, they might have shot themselves in the foot!

Also, there must be some people who voted Leave because of promises that are patently no longer on offer.

But the vote is gone, so we'll never know.


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> What do you hope? Honestly.


FYI ...

*Eurozone grows twice as fast as UK after GDP rises by 0.6%
*
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...wth-gdp-uk-manufacturing-bank-of-england-live


----------



## Elles

I bet more remainers can name brexiters than brexiters can name Remainers. 

Tbh if I had to list our markets in order of preference. Australia and Canada would be top of the list and USA and Brazil at the bottom. Brazil seem to lose deliveries, so we stopped selling to Brazil and the USA are terrible for making mistakes on orders and wanting to send everything back for exchanging. Even when we've double and triple checked. Probably around 30% of orders. Its like a collective of Andy in Little Britain, 'yeah I know. I want that one.'

Never have any trouble with Oz or Canada. 

Have a nice day.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> FYI ...
> 
> *Eurozone grows twice as fast as UK after GDP rises by 0.6%
> *
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...wth-gdp-uk-manufacturing-bank-of-england-live


It probably should shouldn't it? Some members took longer to come out of recession and the Eurozone was fairing quite poorly in recent years. While we Brexit a few companies who have operated solely from the uk as their European/uk presence are having to locate some extra operations in Europe too. I didn't expect anything else. If it's good for Europe it will be good for us too imo.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I think a number of people voted Leave because it was a vote against Cameron / a government that had imposed 6 years of austerity on them and they wanted to give him a bloody nose. Some of those might have changed their minds now that they've seen what a mess the current government are making of Brexit, and the realisation that as well as damaging Cameron's nose, they might have shot themselves in the foot!
> 
> Also, there must be some people who voted Leave because of promises that are patently no longer on offer.
> 
> But the vote is gone, so we'll never know.


I would be surprised if hardly anyone voted leave to "give him a bloody nose", we had that opportunity just twelve months earlier at the general election. I think you'll find we voted to leave for a much simpler reason, and that was to leave the EU. Shocking I know.

There's been to much second guessing from the remain camp as to the reason for the result. Why they can't just accept the majority simply wanted to leave the EU is beyond me.


----------



## Elles

People had been asking for a referendum long before we had one. If it does end up a mess, they'd be more likely to blame the current government, or the Eu than Brexit, or think it temporary and better in the long run and still want to leave imo. I haven't met anyone who voted leave to give Cameron a bloody nose. For many they'd waited years for the referendum and couldn't wait.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9770633/The-EU-so-where-did-it-all-go-wrong.html


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> I would be surprised if hardly anyone voted leave to "give him a bloody nose", we had that opportunity just twelve months earlier at the general election. I think you'll find we voted to leave for a much simpler reason, and that was to leave the EU. Shocking I know.
> 
> There's been to much second guessing from the remain camp as to the reason for the result. Why they can't just accept the majority simply wanted to leave the EU is beyond me.


I only said " a number of people" voted to give him a bloody nose on account of 6 years of austerity because that's what some research I saw suggested.

And "a number" in this case can be anything between 1 and 17.5 million, some of whom most certainly did vote against the Tories just a year earlier. But I fully accept that the majority simply wanted to leave, for whatever reason, and nothing I wrote suggested anything else.

I could ask 'Why can't Leavers read something about some leavers without assuming it is supposed to apply to them all?'. But I won't.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I only said " a number of people" voted to give him a bloody nose on account of 6 years of austerity because that's what some research I saw suggested.
> 
> And "a number" in this case can be anything between 1 and 17.5 million, some of whom most certainly did vote against the Tories just a year earlier. But I fully accept that the majority simply wanted to leave, for whatever reason, and nothing I wrote suggested anything else.
> 
> I could ask 'Why can't Leavers read something about some leavers without assuming it is supposed to apply to them all?'. But I won't.


Ok, fair enough. I'll just accept your opinion is more valid than mine because I'm just a humble 'O' level educated dog walker who dunt understand numbers.

As an aside I thought I made it clear I didn't think you meant it applied to all leavers for a minute, hence the use of the term "hardly anyone" rather than saying "none of us". So I accepted a few might have voted leave for the reason you suggested, but a very few at that. You probably need to read the posts a bit more carefully then your last paragraph answers itself.


----------



## Elles

I didn't say everyone either. I said I hadn't met any, not that they don't exist.  I'd like to have another referendum once the negotiations are further forward. 

According to statistics people who wanted to leave the Eu, forget article 50, their out meant now and totally, and folk who at least wanted no single market, or immigration, switched from ukip and voted conservative in the last election. People who wanted a softer version, or to stay in, switched from green and lib dem to vote labour. Conservative still won despite their best efforts, so to me it does look as though the country still want to leave.

On saying that many polls and statistics haven't been particularly accurate recently.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> According to statistics people who wanted to leave the Eu, forget article 50, their out meant now and totally, and folk who at least wanted no single market, or immigration, switched from ukip and voted conservative in the last election. People who wanted a softer version, or to stay in, switched from green and lib dem to vote labour. Conservative still won despite their best efforts, so to me it does look as though the country still want to leave.
> 
> On saying that many polls and statistics haven't been particularly accurate recently.


Watching the election UKIP was split in voting for others, not simply Tory. The election could not be taken as about Brexit. Two choices in the UK, conservatives or labour, neither pushing the stay in agenda.

Then we come to simple perception, which politcians or media have pushed the fact that article 50 may well be reversable without repercussion?

So 52% of eligible voters wanted to leave in the referendum. That hardly equates to the country still wants to leave.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Watching the election UKIP was split in voting for others, not simply Tory. Fact is the election could not be taken as about Brexit. Two choices in the UK, conservatives or labour, neither pushing the stay in agenda. Then we come to simple perception, which politcians or media have pushed the fact that article 50 may well be reversable without repercussion?


I'm not talking about my impression in this case @Goblin I'm talking about an analysis recently published.  I didn't say everyone who voted ukip switched to conservative. I know that's not true. I voted Green.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Ok, fair enough. I'll just accept your opinion is more valid than mine because I'm just a humble 'O' level educated dog walker who dunt understand numbers.
> 
> As an aside I thought I made it clear I didn't think you meant it applied to all leavers for a minute, hence the use of the term "hardly anyone" rather than saying "none of us". So I accepted a few might have voted leave for the reason you suggested, but a very few at that. You probably need to read the posts a bit more carefully then your last paragraph answers itself.


I don't think an argument about semantics will get us very far so I'll leave this one here. If you care you can google the Brexit 'protest vote'; there are plenty of articles on it.

All opinions are equally valid, at least in my opinion.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think an argument about semantics will get us very far so I'll leave this one here.
> 
> All opinions are equally valid, at least in my opinion.


Well don't start them then when someone disagrees with you and you have to backtrack, or twist it, to look like you said something you didn't.

You really don't believe that last sentence do you.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I'm not talking about my impression in this case @Goblin I'm talking about an analysis recently published.  I didn't say everyone who voted ukip switched to conservative. I know that's not true. I voted Green.


Yet you simply mentioned statistics, no link to the analysis 


> so to me it does look as though


Surely this indicates that it is your impression? I simply agreed yes but associating the election result with Brexit is false on several levels. People are not being given information to make educated decisions anyway. They haven't been from the start.


----------



## Elles

Unfortunately some articles are on pay to view sites, where we might get one article free, so I don't link those. It will probably be elsewhere though, came out today. Theres another poll that says Brexit was more important in the election than we thought.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Well don't start them then when someone disagrees with you and you have to backtrack, or twist it, to look like you said something you didn't.




Arnie83 said:


> I don't think an argument about semantics will get us very far so I'll leave this one here.





Dr Pepper said:


> You really don't believe that last sentence do you.


I do when the previous sentence has been acted upon such that empirical evidence influences the opinion.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 319646


SO its nothing to do with tougher airport security then?


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> SO its nothing to do with tougher airport security then?


Yes, I believe the extra security was agreed upon in 2015. And besides couldn't have anything to do with Brexit because we haven't yet.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes, I believe the extra security was agreed upon in 2015. And besides couldn't have anything to do with Brexit because we haven't yet.


Guess brexit is going to be blamed for anything going wrong from now until eternity, blinking raining here again I blame brexit!


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Guess brexit is going to be blamed for anything going wrong from now until eternity, blinking raining here again I blame brexit!


EU's been blamed for the UK government's decisions and policies for years. Immigration being a primary example. It's typical to see that the EU is still being blamed by the media and being pushed as bullying the UK for simply stating position. Gove's mantra of the EU needs us more than we need them was false.

Collapse of the pound and various other things can definately be blamed on the referendum result. Tariffs if they occur, additional costs of imports along with red tape again will be able to be placed on the impact of brexit and the government's failure to negotiate well as it will simply be true. The lack of achievement on the promises of the leave campaign can be placed on the simple fact that it was never going to happen in the first place not the EU being difficult or on the UK government.

The worst thing is we are still being lied to rather than being given facts and information to prepare for the consequences. If we get TTIP from the states as part of any trade deal it will somehow be the EU's fault.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> If we get TTIP from the states as part of any trade deal it will somehow be the EU's fault.


No worries re the US trade deal. Donny's been speaking ...


> In an interview the US President said he had a "very good relationship with the Prime Minister" and said he was "absolutely looking to do a major trade deal".
> 
> Asked if he could say more about the plans, Mr Trump said: "*No, but I can say that we're going to be very involved with the UK. I mean, you don't hear the word Britain anymore. It's very interesting. It's like, nope.*"


So, there you have it.

Covfefe.


----------



## rona

*https://www.farminguk.com/News/-Bri...-measures-to-help-UK-dairy-farmers_47097.html

"Dairy giant Muller has unveiled a series of measures to help farmers build their dairy businesses for the future, amid growing uncertainty.*

Müller has confirmed £100m of investment in its UK network of dairies so that it can build an additional £700m worth of sales of dairy products made with milk from British farmers, by 2020.

Muller has said it wants to increase confidence and resilience amongst its dairy farmer suppliers against a backdrop of 'volatile and unpredictable' global dairy markets".


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> How about the fact (amongst many more) that BMW is choosing the UK to build their new electric car here just a few short months away from Brexit.


Interesting by Sky's Faisal Islam.

*Faisal Islam*‏Verified [email protected]*faisalislam* Jul 25

BBG suggest that it is a four year BMW investment, not normal 7 year cycle... roughly coincides with likely Brexit transition period


----------



## noushka05

HAHAA


----------



## noushka05

Looks like we've already reached Brexit Justification Level 5.








(Via David Schneider)


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> HAHAA
> 
> View attachment 319714


I like the way the Mail front page is complaining about the EU having too much border control, and that we're suffering because we're not part of the Schengen area.

You couldn't make it up.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Interesting by Sky's Faisal Islam.
> 
> *Faisal Islam*‏Verified [email protected]*faisalislam* Jul 25
> 
> BBG suggest that it is a four year BMW investment, not normal 7 year cycle... roughly coincides with likely Brexit transition period
> 
> View attachment 319713


Who is BBG?

Haha, love this quote from your attachment -

"said the person familiar with the decision, who asked not to be identified because the information isn't public"

You couldn't make it up. Or perhaps you could.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Who is BBG?
> 
> Haha, love this quote from your attachment -
> 
> "said the person familiar with the decision, who asked not to be identified because the information isn't public"
> 
> You couldn't make it up. Or perhaps you could.


Says someone who seems to have blind faith in a government that pretty much makes _everything_ up

(British Business Group? Not sure tbh. I was just passing on what I spotted)


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I like the way the Mail front page is complaining about the EU having too much border control, and that we're suffering because we're not part of the Schengen area.
> 
> You couldn't make it up.


Unbelievable isn't it


----------



## noushka05

James O'Brien nails it again: If You Needed Evidence About How Bonkers Brexit Britain Is, This Is It.
_
" Brexit movement is built upon very very strong feelings, not criticising those feelings ...but they're not facts" "





_


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> _" Brexit movement is built upon very very strong feelings, ...but they're not facts" _


Obviously.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Says someone who seems to have blind faith in a government that pretty much makes _everything_ up
> 
> (British Business Group? Not sure tbh. I was just passing on what I spotted)


Just trying to add some balance, Noushka.

I don't agree with everything this government is doing, HS2 for example appears to be an utter waste of money. I don't understand why the people using the train can't just get up 20 minutes earlier to get the previous train. There is plenty more I disagree with, I can assure you.

Actually, it's interesting that you accuse me of confirmation bias whenever I post something positive and factual, and yet you post something without even knowing the original source and that is one of your facts. I've done the research for you by the way - it's not the British Business Group, lol, BBG is Bloomberg.


----------



## KittenKong

Satire indeed, yet very true. Reminds me of the "reassurance" I received from a leave voter at the time of the referendum who insisted the ending of free movement wouldn't apply to British people wishing to travel and/or live within the EU. Something about the EU needing the UK more than the UK needs to EU apparently....


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Just trying to add some balance, Noushka.
> 
> I don't agree with everything this government is doing, HS2 for example appears to be an utter waste of money. I don't understand why the people using the train can't just get up 20 minutes earlier to get the previous train. There is plenty more I disagree with, I can assure you.
> 
> Actually, it's interesting that you accuse me of confirmation bias whenever I post something positive and factual, and yet you post something without even knowing the original source and that is one of your facts. I've done the research for you by the way - it's not the British Business Group, lol, BBG is Bloomberg.


Looking at things objectively though, there simply is no way you can draw a balance. The tories are an absolute catastrophe for the environment, climate change, the NHS, brexit - society. Its like the millions of Trump supporters who still believe Trump is doing a good job despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It beggers belief tbqh.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Satire indeed, yet very true. Reminds me of the "reassurance" I received from a leave voter at the time of the referendum who insisted the ending of free movement wouldn't apply to British people wishing to travel and/or live within the EU. Something about the EU needing the UK more than the UK needs to EU apparently....
> View attachment 319765
> View attachment 319766


News Thump is great:Hilarious


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Satire indeed, yet very true. Reminds me of the "reassurance" I received from a leave voter at the time of the referendum who insisted the ending of free movement wouldn't apply to British people wishing to travel and/or live within the EU. Something about the EU needing the UK more than the UK needs to EU apparently....
> View attachment 319765
> View attachment 319766


I think this is shameful.
Using EU countries concerns and tightening of security because of terrorist threats to score a cheap and very wrong point about freedom of movement


----------



## noushka05

..Pound now at €1.10 - close to 25% depreciation since Brexit. And only going in one direction.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ve-prison-jail-lies-350-million-a7877601.html


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ve-prison-jail-lies-350-million-a7877601.html
> View attachment 320000


Whos lord sugar?
Oh you me and the big headed pillock that does The Apprentice!


----------



## KittenKong

DT said:


> Whos lord sugar?
> Oh you me and the big headed pillock that does The Apprentice!


I happened to have a lot of respect for Lord Sugar, unlike a certain host of the US version!


----------



## noushka05

Brexit is not looking good at all for our health care.


----------



## noushka05

Just think what we could spend this on. Our NHS?


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Just think what we could spend this on. Our NHS?
> 
> View attachment 320062


I heard on the news earlier today that the EU wants to start the bidding at around 80 to 100 billion Euros.

This probably means the Government will now look for anything they can to sell off........

Like the NHS.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> I heard on the news earlier today that the EU wants to start the bidding at around 80 to 100 billion Euros.
> 
> This probably means the Government will now look for anything they can to sell off........
> 
> Like the NHS.


And they can say we had to do it because brexit was the 'will of the people'  Disaster capitalism in all its glory.


----------



## Guest

Arnie83 said:


> I like the way the Mail front page is complaining about the EU having too much border control, and that we're suffering because we're not part of the Schengen area.
> You couldn't make it up.


That is both hilarious and sad. I bet not many Mail readers even understands what that means, as long as it is against EU.



noushka05 said:


> ..Pound now at €1.10 - close to 25% depreciation since Brexit. And only going in one direction.
> View attachment 319824


While EU economies are mainly improving. This is just not good.



Zaros said:


> I heard on the news earlier today that the EU wants to start the bidding at around 80 to 100 billion Euros.
> 
> This probably means the Government will now look for anything they can to sell off........ Like the NHS.


Wasn´t that the reason Trump trumpeted how US is making a good deal with UK. I wonder how that will be sold to Mail readers, as US system costs 2-3 times more to tax payer while still leaving millions without any health care. Nice one TM if that happens. But what else is left?


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> And they can say we had to do it because brexit was the *'will of the people'*  Disaster capitalism in all its glory.


Volonté générale.

It's bloody french you know. Famously penned by the French philosopher, Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

And how the English have an apparent dislike of all things French.:Facepalm

Including the French themselves.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> That is both hilarious and sad. I bet not many Mail readers even understands what that means, as long as it is against EU.
> 
> While EU economies are mainly improving. This is just not good.
> 
> Wasn´t that the reason Trump trumpeted how US is making a good deal with UK. I wonder how that will be sold to Mail readers, as US system costs 2-3 times more to tax payer while still leaving millions without any health care. Nice one TM if that happens. But what else is left?


I think we're now the worst performing developed economy on the planet Its madness.



Zaros said:


> Volonté générale.
> 
> It's bloody french you know. Famously penned by the French philosopher, Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
> 
> And how the English have an apparent dislike of all things French.:Facepalm
> 
> Including the French themselves.


I can barely speak English never mind French! haha

We have a superiority complex full stop, Zaros


----------



## Happy Paws2

God is this still running. Why hasn't it been* closed* like some of the others for *going round in circles*


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> I can barely speak English never mind French! haha
> 
> *We have a superiority complex* full stop, Zaros


Well, what can I say? 

At least mine's better than yours.:Smug


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> God is this still running. Why hasn't it been* closed* like some of the others for *going round in circles*


Because new information is coming out all the time HP. Brexit will affect us all in so many different ways, I personally think its important to know as much we can.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Well, what can I say?
> 
> At least mine's better than yours.:Smug


LOL

I happen to have an inferiority complex - so yes, yours is better than mine:Hilarious


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> Because new information is coming out all the time HP. Brexit will affect us all in so many different ways, I personally think its important to know as much we can.


So why don't we start a new one just on Brexit not on the right and wrongs of us leaving.


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> So why don't we start a new one just on Brexit not on the right and wrongs of us leaving.


Not sure members would appreciate another brexit thread lol. I'd probably post on it though :Bag


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> Not sure members would appreciate another brexit thread lol. I'd probably post on it though :Bag


If they closed this one they'd have to.


----------



## kimthecat

@Happy Paws You're always moaning about threads  Why does it matter ? Start another one and the same thing will happen .


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> If they closed this one they'd have to.


True:Smuggrin A brexit thread is like a zombie - it will never die. (unless its closed! lol)


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> I heard on the news earlier today that the EU wants to start the bidding at around 80 to 100 billion Euros.
> 
> This probably means the Government will now look for anything they can to sell off........
> 
> Like the NHS.





MrsZee said:


> That is both hilarious and sad. I bet not many Mail readers even understands what that means, as long as it is against EU.
> 
> While EU economies are mainly improving. This is just not good.
> 
> Wasn´t that the reason Trump trumpeted how US is making a good deal with UK. I wonder how that will be sold to Mail readers, as US system costs 2-3 times more to tax payer while still leaving millions without any health care. Nice one TM if that happens. But what else is left?


Chunky has done an excellent video covering the £36 billion divorce bill.

I love how he signs off - _what we gunna eat?_ This is a country of ROOT vegetables!:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Chunky has done an excellent video covering the £36 billion divorce bill.
> I love how he signs off - _what we gunna eat?_ This is a country of ROOT vegetables!:Hilarious


I'll tell you what you're going to eat, the same as the Russians when times were lean. Turnips, parsnips, potatoes and a carrot for dessert.....if you're lucky.

And when crops fail, cats, dogs, that horrible neighbour you've been trying to get rid of for donkey's years and immigrants. There's no shortage of immigrants according to the newspapers.


----------



## shadowmare

Zaros said:


> I'll tell you what you're going to eat, the same as the Russians when times were lean. Turnips, parsnips, potatoes and a carrot for dessert.....if you're lucky.
> 
> And when crops fail, cats, dogs, that horrible neighbour you've been trying to get rid of for donkey's years and immigrants. There's no shortage of immigrants according to the newspapers.


Please don't forget the fantastic chocolate cake that BJ boasted about. Apparently there's shit loads of it getting exported to EU. We shall keep it all and eat the effing cake!!! :Happy:Finger So what that instead of making Britain great again, the whole process is only making it a laughing stock for the rest of the world? We have our cake and we shall eat it :Mooning


----------



## Arnie83

Genuine question from me, cos I don't know the answer ...

The cabinet have, apparently, agreed that we need some sort of transition arrangement because there isn't time to negotiate and prepare for the full post-Brexit package - no single market, no customs union, no fees, no freedom of movement, & no ECJ jurisdiction - in time for March 2019.

If that's the case, how come there is, apparently, time to negotiate and implement a transition arrangement which, according to May, has exactly the same characteristics?


----------



## Zaros

shadowmare said:


> *Please don't forget the fantastic chocolate cake that BJ boasted about*. Apparently there's shit loads of it getting exported to EU. We shall keep it all and eat the effing cake!!! :Happy:Finger So what that instead of making Britain great again, the whole process is only making it a laughing stock for the rest of the world? We have our cake and we shall eat it :Mooning


And chocolate cake, of course, elevates Walthamstow to the pinnacle of independent Britain's economic achievement. That and French Knickers, which, Boris tells me, are of British design and sewn in Wales. Sacre bleedin' Coeur and Ooh la, la, Blodwyn!:Jawdrop Lacey boxer shorts!

Is the future new British mascot to be bumbling Boris dressed in nothing but red, white and blue frilly knickers, stuffing his fat, over privileged, stupid face with decadent portions of chocolate gateau, whilst all bout him scurry the starving hordes eager for what ever crumbs might fall at his feet? :Watching

I wonder.:Wacky


----------



## Guest

Arnie83 said:


> Genuine question from me, cos I don't know the answer ...
> 
> The cabinet have, apparently, agreed that we need some sort of transition arrangement because there isn't time to negotiate and prepare for the full post-Brexit package - no single market, no customs union, no fees, no freedom of movement, & no ECJ jurisdiction - in time for March 2019.
> 
> If that's the case, how come there is, apparently, time to negotiate and implement a transition arrangement which, according to May, has exactly the same characteristics?


Maybe the reason behind this need is that EU will not start negotiating about the terms of leaving before UK paid the 100 billion €s. May offered around 30-40 billion. May wants to do both at the same time, but we don´t.

I believe also that conservatives would like to have more time to figure out how they can still blame EU for not having enough money to provide for NHS, social support etc. Or maybe they are counting how much they make by selling NHS. Whatever the reason, I doubt very much we will find out the truth until much, much later in somebody´s memoires.


----------



## Goblin

MrsZee said:


> May wants to do both at the same time, but we don´t.


The problem with the approach is that the two (leave and trade) are independent of each other according to EU law. They even require different methods of democratic agreement. Wallenia even has a say in the trade negotiation for example as shown with the EU-canada trade negotiations. Of course it serves May's purpose not to recognise this fact as she can blame the EU for it at a later date. The EU has already made a concession as technically any trade negotiations should happen after the leave negotiations have been agreed and accepted.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> I'll tell you what you're going to eat, the same as the Russians when times were lean. Turnips, parsnips, potatoes and a carrot for dessert.....if you're lucky.
> 
> And when crops fail, cats, dogs, that horrible neighbour you've been trying to get rid of for donkey's years and immigrants. There's no shortage of immigrants according to the newspapers.


:Hilarious Thank god I've got my allotment!


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> :Hilarious Thank god I've got my allotment!


For now.

If the land isn't confiscated, you'll require a licence/permit to produce your own produce because the big produce producers won't like the idea you're trying to muscle in on their vegetable patch.
Be warned, they could turn you into a cabbage in an instant and still make it look like an unfortunate accident.


----------



## 1290423

Erm , looks like Poland have rattled a few cages. Wonder are they going to be next after us?


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> Erm , looks like Poland have rattled a few cages. Wonder are they going to be next after us?


 What's occuring with Poland ? Was this on the news?


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> What's occuring with Poland ? Was this on the news?


Nope- just speculation at the moment but I'm a firm Believer there's no smoke without fire


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> What's occuring with Poland ? Was this on the news?


They are not. We have Trump like moron leader who uses church , God, hellfire,all phobias and genuine shortcomings of previous governments to create that havoc.
Poland is not very good in complying with German demands.
EU does not care Polish took on million refugees already ( Ukraine 2014).
Polish pride is being exploited by populist government.

Like Trump it will be a blip. But unfortunately Brexit gave EU for Germany to run it and it does not seat well with Poles.
Would they want to give up on EU passports? Or face Russia alone?
Ha! Not going to happen.
But obviously some see the danger of being ruled from Berlin rather than Brussels...
Merkel dictating quotas of immigrants she invited to Germany herself?
Punishment for country which took million refugees...surprise many are angry at such arrogance.

Plus nationalism rising. Poland First sort of thing...
Really sad. 
Especially deforestation of primeval forests.


----------



## Elles

The Eu want to bring in rules to stop what they call labour dumping i.e. Companies using cheap labour from other countries.  Poland don't want it. We left in part because of it and were accused of xenophobia and racism and told how good it is for the economy. Lol. Now the Eu, particularly France want to do it. :Hilarious It's in the FT.

Poland are chopping trees down, logging, the Eu have told them to stop or they'll invoke rule 7 and rumours abound that the Eu might kick Poland out, or Poland will leave. Poland say they're chopping the trees down because of beetle infestation and they won't stop. I believe Hungary has something like this going on too. Poland and Hungary are refusing to take immigrants and refugees, particularly muslims. 

You couldn't make it up. :Hilarious

We should have stayed in. We'd be the only ones left.


----------



## Elles

Sorry @cheekyscrip It's probably fake news based on rumour and minor disagreements to make Brits feel better about leaving, after we've been told we'll all starve to death. 

If the Eu restrict freedom of movement after all, there'll be plenty of people available to take up our special visas to come here to pick our veg. We just sent Spain a ship full of barley to feed their animals during the drought too. Clever plan.


----------



## Goblin

As far as Poland - http://www.dw.com/en/european-union-launches-legal-challenge-against-poland/a-39885177 or https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/world/europe/poland-courts-independence.html perhaps https://oko.press/the-end-of-indepe...titution-and-assumes-control-over-all-courts/

Now I know those who support Brexit are keen for other countries to nibble away at ideas such as democracy, an independent justice system etc so long as they can say "see other countries do not like the EU".


----------



## rona

https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/ukraine-rejects-polish-million-refugees-claim/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...eeing-putin-score-a-policy-jackpot-for-poland

http://www.e-ir.info/2017/04/25/economic-migration-of-ukrainians-to-the-eu-a-view-from-poland/
"The number of applications for asylum from Ukrainians has indeed increased after 2013 in relative terms, yet even the total number of applications does not come close to the purported one million. If in 2013 there were 46 applications, in 2014 the number rose to 2318 and in 2015 it reached 2305. In 2016, until July, 709 asylum claims were registered."


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> Now I know those who support Brexit are keen for other countries to nibble away at ideas such as democracy, an independent justice system etc so long as they can say "see other countries do not like the EU".


You are quite right. All people who support Brexit think the same way and hold exactly the same views and opinions on every subject.

ETA: see other countries do not like the EU [sic]


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Sorry @cheekyscrip It's probably fake news based on rumour and minor disagreements to make Brits feel better about leaving, after we've been told we'll all starve to death.
> 
> If the Eu restrict freedom of movement after all, there'll be plenty of people available to take up our special visas to come here to pick our veg. We just sent Spain a ship full of barley to feed their animals during the drought too. Clever plan.


Can you let me know where the restriction of free movement news is coming from?

I know there's been talk of it in the EU for quite a few months but I can't find anything relating specifically to the 'posted workers' situation. Regarding that, there have been EU rules in place since the mid-90's, preventing workers being 'employed' in one country and thereby undercutting the wages where they actually work. I.e. if you work in the UK the company who employs you has to pay you according to the rules - minimum wage - of the UK.


----------



## Elles

https://www.ft.com/content/7143fcde-4a05-11e7-a3f4-c742b9791d43

https://www.thelocal.fr/20170623/macron-takes-eastern-eu-flak-for-offensive-labour-plan

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/08/09/business/09reuters-austria-eu-andritz-regulations.html


----------



## Elles

The Austrian thing is what Jeremy wanted to do. Fine or charge companies for using cheap labour. Looks like it would have broken Eu law. The trouble with links is that most give one or two free visits, then it's paid. I don't pay for them, so can't go back.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Now I know those who support Brexit are keen for other countries to nibble away at ideas such as democracy, an independent justice system etc so long as they can say "see other countries do not like the EU".


 and I know those who support Remain are keen for other countries to nibble away at democracy etc so they can blame Brexit .


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> https://www.ft.com/content/7143fcde-4a05-11e7-a3f4-c742b9791d43
> 
> https://www.thelocal.fr/20170623/macron-takes-eastern-eu-flak-for-offensive-labour-plan
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/08/09/business/09reuters-austria-eu-andritz-regulations.html


Right, thanks.

I can't read the FT one but one seems to be about the existing law (that I mentioned above) being broken and another about getting around it and therefore having to change it. It doesn't seek to change free movement, but rather close a loophole.

I don't think the problem which most leavers saw in the UK was employees of foreign companies taking 'specialised' positions over here at lower wages than the locals, though. I may be wrong but it seemed to me that they just didn't like the sheer numbers of unskilled immigrants which (purportedly) pushed down wages at the bottom end of the scale.

I certainly don't think the "wage dumping" or "posted workers" issue was what gave rise to any accusations of xenophobia - not least because no-one will have heard of it before they voted last year - and it doesn't change the fact that EU migration has been economically beneficial for the UK according to a number of expert / academic studies.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> For now.
> 
> If the land isn't confiscated, you'll require a licence/permit to produce your own produce because the big produce producers won't like the idea you're trying to muscle in on their vegetable patch.
> Be warned, they could turn you into a cabbage in an instant and still make it look like an unfortunate accident.


LOL

You may be joking Zaros but allotments haven't been safe under the tories for a while now. They really are anti working-class they'd love all us peasants to starve!. - *Tories Want To Sell OUR Allotments. The end of the good life* http://country-standard.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/tories-want-to-sell-our-allotments.html They'll be even more determined to flog them off now with Corbyn being an allotmenteer lol


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> and I know those who support Remain are keen for other countries to nibble away at democracy etc so they can blame Brexit .


We were warned in the run up to the referendum a trade deal with the US was a huge threat & would have dire consequences for our democracy. So Brexit will be to blame. Remainers certainly aren't_ keen _for other countries to nibble away at our democracy, what a silly thing to say. The ones I know are extremely worried!


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> and I know those who support Remain are keen for other countries to nibble away at democracy etc so they can blame Brexit .


What like the government taking an issue to supreme court attempting to bypass parliament? The argument - a non-binding referendum showed 26% of the population supported a direction which will damage the UK. Or like the repeal bill which again provides ministers a method to bypass parliament. It wasn't those who supported remain pushing these.

Or do you mean the fact that the EU can make rules affecting the UK through a democratic process which may mean UK does not always get it's way? That's one of the effects of democracy. Other examples, well you can see the fact that Scotland, Wales and Ireland don't always get what they want within the UK.


----------



## kimthecat

@Goblin ,
so say that then!

Your original statement;

"Now I know those who support Brexit are keen for other countries to nibble away at ideas such as democracy, an independent justice system etc so long as they can say "see other countries do not like the EU".

They personally come up to you and say that ? like "they " said to you before , Them , french and them Germans ?

There are Remainers who hope Brexit fail because they can say told you so , if any other countries leave , they can say So , its all Brexits fault .

A lot of remainers voted Remain cos of project fear , doesnt mean they a give a shit about the EU


----------



## Goblin

First off @kimthecat context is important. The context of the quote was based on poland and the fact the EU is complaining about the nibbling away of rights of the polish people. Yes, there are brexiteers who are using that to push for support for leaving.. Not nice to be alone when you cannot support a direction with anything but wishful thinking. Popularism has been shown to be a false promise.



kimthecat said:


> A lot of remainers voted Remain cos of project fear , doesnt mean they a give a shit about the EU


So called project fear is already becoming project fact. What promises of leave have been shown to be true? Nobody on this thread has been able to come up with reasons to leave which are not based on prejudice, wishful thinking, lies or simply not liking the EU (or a combination, normally lies as being the main ingredient). Not liking the EU is hardly a great reason to leave when they cannot explain how leaving helps anything.


----------



## Elles

Clearly to close minded Remain voters there is no reason good enough for leaving the Eu. Brexiters could talk about it until they're blue in the face, but whatever reasons they had for voting leave, they were either, conned, stupid, or didn't think about it, anything else and it's fingers in ears and lalala not listening. I am so glad I can see both sides to it. I couldn't live in a constant state of fear and paranoia. Apparently that's just what the powers that be want anyway. It keeps the plebs in line. 

My post was pointing out the irony. Not saying I'm glad if people are having a hard time.


----------



## kimthecat

@Goblin Ok .
I understand that EU nationals already living and working here wont be made to leave , is that correct so far?
( I'm asking for my sis who;s Dil is from eastern europe . )


----------



## samuelsmiles

*Brexit caused by low levels of education, study finds*

"A slight increase in higher education could have kept Britain in the EU" 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...leave-eu-remain-voters-educated-a7881441.html
Now if only I had the intelligence to go to university after college instead of choosing to go out and work we wouldn't be in this bloody mess. Same goes for the rest of you thickos.


----------



## kimthecat

samuelsmiles said:


> *Brexit caused by low levels of education, study finds*
> 
> "A slight increase in higher education could have kept Britain in the EU"


 Apparently students voted Labour because they believed Corbyn would do something about student debts already incurred . 
Higher education didn't do them any good , then .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Sadly , now I see it as " we made our bed, we must lie in it"....situation.
Most people realise it was pretty stupid to listen to Farage/ Johnson / Gove and whatever in the buses.

Most people who have no offshore holdings and shares are already worse off.

Gibraltar is rapidly losing jobs. Gaming companies moving to Philippines, Malta etc...
Financial services losing too...
Same in Channel Islands.

Brexodus has begun, just as Project Fear predicted.
BoE rings alarm bells ... Recession on the way...
Happy now?
Amazon must be!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Gibraltar is rapidly losing jobs. Gaming companies moving to Philippines, Malta etc...
> Financial services losing too...
> Same in Channel Islands.


I though the Channel islands weren't part of the EU or UK? how will they be affected ?
.
ETA did search and found this. (it seems they they are sort of part of the EU .]
The formal relationship between the Channel Islands and the EU is enshrined in Protocol 3 of the UK's 1972 Accession Treaty, and confirmed in what is now Article 355 (5) (c) of the EU Treaties. Under Protocol 3, the Islands are part of the Customs Union and are essentially within the Single Market for the purposes of trade in goods, but are third countries (ie outside the EU) in all other respects. However the Channel Islands have a close relationship with the EU in many different fields, not simply those covered by the formal relationship under Protocol 3, as this note explains. Both Jersey and Guernsey voluntarily implement appropriate EU legislation or apply the international standards on which they are based.

http://www.channelislands.eu/eu-and-the-channel-islands/


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> *Brexit caused by low levels of education, study finds*
> 
> "A slight increase in higher education could have kept Britain in the EU"
> Now if only I had the intelligence to go to university after college instead of choosing to go out and work we wouldn't be in this bloody mess. Same goes for the rest of you thickos.


Interesting. A peer-reviewed multivariate regression using a logit model (that's basically categories) isn't something that can be sensibly dismissed without further investigation. So what, I wonder, would the characteristics of those in the 'higher education' category be that would lead them to favour a remain vote.

Could it be a greater understanding, through study, of the EU - e.g. for those studying politics, history, economics, geography (perhaps) ..? Wouldn't cover a majority of students of course, but maybe it would tip the balance?

Or exposure to a wider range of nationalities, cultures and views through the ethnic diversity of undergraduates, post-graduates and teachers? That would certainly make them more comfortable with a supra-national organisation.

Or perhaps (generalising of course) the people in that category are generally more interested in and more widely read on the subject, both generally and in the run-up to the referendum. I.e. they did more research.

Like I say; interesting.


----------



## Elles

Just goes to show that an education is no guarantee of common sense.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Clearly to close minded Remain voters there is no reason good enough for leaving the Eu. Brexiters could talk about it until they're blue in the face, but whatever reasons they had for voting leave, they were either, conned, stupid, or didn't think about it, anything else and it's fingers in ears and lalala not listening.


Ah you mean when people explain wishful thinking which they cannot back up with the way things work in the modern UK. We could do... providing you ignore WTO rules for example.

Will quickly say have a great weekend folks.. I'm off for the weekend mixing with people from around the EU and hopefully some brits.


----------



## Guest

Despite that some members think thread is just going around, I find this the most interesting thread, as Brexit negotiatons have just started, and the result of these negotiations have a direct impact on our lives. And as there seem to be hundreds of different aspects to consider, having a group of people discussing it is extremely useful.

I understand naturally, if all are not interested at all in politics, but IMO following this thread is one of the most useful ways of spending time at the moment. Don´t leave politics only to politicians, they are good only as long as they don´t have a free pass to do what they want.

And, if some one even thinks what should I care, or do I have a right to post, well, Brexits affects my life directy, as Zaros is British,and it just doesn´t get more personal than this.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> Despite that some members think thread is just going around, I find this the most interesting thread, as Brexit negotiatons have just started, and the result of these negotiations have a direct impact on our lives. And as there seem to be hundreds of different aspects to consider, having a group of people discussing it is extremely useful.
> 
> I understand naturally, when if are not interested at all in politics, but IMO following this thread is one of the most useful ways of spending time at the moment. Don´t leave politics only to politicians, they are good only as long as they don´t have a free pass to do what they want.
> 
> And, if some one even thinks what should I care, or do I have a right to post, well, Brexits affects my life directy, as Zaros is British,and it just doesn´t get more personal than this.


I totally agree Mrs Zee. x


----------



## Arnie83

Me too.

I've said it before, but the ones who aren't keenly interested in the outcome of the negotiations (should the UK government ever agree what they want and get involved in them!) are either those who have already got what they wanted - a Leave vote - and don't care how it is enacted, and / or those who still don't realise quite how influential the next year is going to be on the 30 years following it.


----------



## kimthecat

MrsZee said:


> I understand naturally, if all are not interested at all in politics, but IMO following this thread is one of the most useful ways of spending time at the moment. Don´t leave politics only to politicians, they are good only as long as they don´t have a free pass to do what they want.
> 
> .


But its often been said that the British public weren't to be trusted to vote on this matter and that it should have been the MPs who decided to leave or not as they were more informed.
If more than half the country are idiots , ignorant , stupid ,uneducated , racist enough to vote Leave , shouldn't we leave it to our MPs instead .


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> But its often been said that the British public weren't to be trusted to vote on this matter and that it should have been the MPs who decided to leave or not as they were more informed.
> If more than half the country are idiots , *ignorant *, stupid ,uneducated , racist enough to vote Leave , shouldn't we leave it to our MPs instead?


In my opinion, the answer to your question is (and always has been) 'Yes' and solely because of the bolded word. I think we were all ignorant; every last one of us.

Who, prior to the referendum, knew what 'passporting' was? Who knew that leaving the EU would involve leaving Euratom as well, or that we would need to renegotiate aircraft landing rights in Europe? Who knew what the actual, economic and social effects of immigration were in terms of the country as a whole, and of localised concentrations? Who was actually aware of how the EU Parliament, Council & Commission actually operate? etc etc

We were asked to make a decision that will affect the lives of the next two generations on the basis of gut feeling, the press headlines, two campaigns that lied and / or were overly pessimistic / optimistic, stories from Fred or Freda down the pub who knew someone who said X, Y or Z, and maybe a quick google.

We elect MPs to make decisions for us on topics that are too complicated for us to research, not because we're stupid but because we simply don't have the time or the wherewithal.

What strikes me as somewhat odd now is that, having justified the referendum on the basis of its democratic purity, so many Brexiters are now saying that the results of the negotiations cannot possibly be put to the voters to see if they are happy with them because the people have already spoken and must not be allowed to speak again!


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> What strikes me as somewhat odd now is that, having justified the referendum on the basis of its democratic purity, so many Brexiters are now saying that the results of the negotiations cannot possibly be put to the voters to see if they are happy with them because the people have already spoken and must not be allowed to speak again!


 Do you mean MPs or high profile Brexiteers are saying this? Im not aware of a lot of general public remainers saying this though that doesn tmean to say they arent. 
TBH I think the general public are sick to death of voting and politics .
I think we should make our wishes known to our MPs , unfortunately due to lack of foresight and not having a plan , it seems we don't have a lot of time and voting takes time . 
Do you think the public should have the right to vote or veto just the main issues or should it be on everything peice of legislation ?


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> But its often been said that the British public weren't to be trusted to vote on this matter and that it should have been the MPs who decided to leave or not as they were more informed.
> If more than half the country are idiots , ignorant , stupid ,uneducated , racist enough to vote Leave , shouldn't we leave it to our MPs instead .


I think that the more we know about Brexit in advance, the better decisions and deald we make. i.e you get the best estimates by varies experts what would happen, if e.g. Britain doesn´t have a deal, isn´t part of the single market, how much it would cost to maintain your own custom/regulations etc. This is why discussing about the "facts" polititians present is vital, as it is so easy to get misled. People can still disagree, but at least they know what is what.

I´d call only the Sun and Mail editors, Farage Boris, Le Penn, etc b*t*rds and racists, as they presented the fake facts to British people, of whom many genuily believed that Britain doesn´t get any benefits from EU, and Brexit will bring more money and power to benefit British people. But Brits have been famous for being pretty critical, when they want to. Now is the time to speak up and demand better politics. No more lies!


----------



## kimthecat

I think we can have the best of both worlds so to speak the Eu and the US . Im looking forward to having a nice dinner of bleached chicken and contaminated eggs .


----------



## cheekyscrip

MrsZee said:


> I think that the more we know about Brexit in advance, the better decisions and deald we make. i.e you get the best estimates by varies experts what would happen, if e.g. Britain doesn´t have a deal, isn´t part of the single market, how much it would cost to maintain your own custom/regulations etc. This is why discussing about the "facts" polititians present is vital, as it is so easy to get misled. People can still disagree, but at least they know what is what.
> 
> I´d call only the Sun and Mail editors, Farage Boris, Le Penn, etc b*t*rds and racists, as they presented the fake facts to British people, of whom many genuily believed that Britain doesn´t get any benefits from EU, and Brexit will bring more money and power to benefit British people. But Brits have been famous for being pretty critical, when they want to. Now is the time to speak up and demand better politics. No more lies!


How many Brits knew how many Brits are top cheeses in many financial bodies in EU? How much influence they had over laws, regulations, all decisions?
Now they are all gone, all being replaced.
No influence whatsoever.

How many EU countries were happy to side with Britain to balance Germany/ France/ Austria/ Belgium / Holland ... ? Start with Poland, Hungary, then Spain ( lots of business), Portugal, etc...
Britain was not alone in EU and let all those allies down.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> How many EU countries were happy to side with Britain to balance Germany/ France/ Austria/ Belgium / Holland ... ? Start with Poland, Hungary, then Spain ( lots of business), Portugal, etc...
> Britain was not alone in EU and let all those allies down.


It shouldn't have been like that though. They should have all been allies under the EU banner. That was never going to happen, it was fractured before we ever thought about leaving


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> It shouldn't have been like that though. They should have all been allies under the EU banner. That was never going to happen, it was fractured before we ever thought about leaving


It was not perfect. No family is.

It was much better with Britain though.
For EU. For democracy. For human and animal rights EVERYWHERE.

For the balance of power in EU and in the world.

Brexit has no winners except greedy corporations.

How sad.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> It shouldn't have been like that though. They should have all been allies under the EU banner. That was never going to happen, it was fractured before we ever thought about leaving


Allies can argue and disagree, yet still be allies.

The starting position of 28 (currently) sovereign nations had huge fractures, by definition and design. While those fractures remain, over time they have narrowed through mutual membership of the EU. It's not like the 28 started together and have drifted apart. I think the EU's achievement is not only good, but surprisingly good!

I agree that it will never be an association of complete harmony and agreement, and there will be rows about all sorts of things from economics to refugee policy, but then most people don't want it to be that close, do they?


----------



## noushka05

Project fear? We cant say we didn't know the repeal bill was a right wing power grab to undermine our rights further. So much for 'taking our country back'.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-bill-will-remove-right-to-sue-government-750dhfjj3

*Brexit bill will remove right to sue government*
*








Experts say the new proposal would invalidate claims agains tthe government for failing to enforce EU pollution laws. Since 2010 London and several other cities have failed to meet standards*

Britons will lose their right to sue the government for breaking the law under Brexit plans that could allow ministers to escape censure over air pollution.

Legislation to ban individuals and companies from bringing compensation claims against Whitehall after Brexit is being drawn up, _The Times_ has learnt.

Swathes of the law covering areas such as the environment, workers' rights and business regulation will no longer be subject to financial redress through the courts. Since a European Court ruling in 1991, citizens have been able to sue member states for damages if their rights were infringed by the failure of a country to implement EU law.

Experts say the new proposal, contained in the European Union repeal bill, would invalidate claims against the government for…

Want to


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Do you mean MPs or high profile Brexiteers are saying this? Im not aware of a lot of general public remainers saying this though that doesn tmean to say they arent.
> TBH I think the general public are sick to death of voting and politics .
> I think we should make our wishes known to our MPs , unfortunately due to lack of foresight and not having a plan , it seems we don't have a lot of time and voting takes time .
> Do you think the public should have the right to vote or veto just the main issues or should it be on everything peice of legislation ?


The ones who don't want the public to have another say are, mostly, those Leavers who don't want to risk a change of mind. Were it to come to another choice, who would believe that the NHS would be magically funded, or that Turkey are about to join the EU and 'swarm' into the country. The economy is slowing, prices are rising, jobs are moving, investment is falling, and while it isn't Armageddon and never will be, it is obvious which campaign was the more accurate. What would Leave promise or threaten next time round?

Those who simply don't like the EU for whatever reason would not change their minds, but there would be enough to make another vote a dangerous proposition for Leavers.

Some, as you say, are sick of it all, but I really think they need to realise just how important this is.

As for your last question I think for most topics it is quite sufficient to have a General Election where parties put forward their manifesto and the people vote. I don't think they should get another definitive say until the next GE. On Brexit, Cameron decided on a referendum for political reasons, and having put the question to the people I think the answer should also be put to the people.

Then I think referendums should be banned. They are only demanded by those who think they can fool enough 'ignorant' voters to get an answer they would never achieve through Parliamentary democracy.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> The ones who don't want the public to have another say are, mostly, those Leavers who don't want to risk a change of mind. Were it to come to another choice, who would believe that the NHS would be magically funded, or that Turkey are about to join the EU and 'swarm' into the country. The economy is slowing, prices are rising, jobs are moving, investment is falling, and while it isn't Armageddon and never will be, it is obvious which campaign was the more accurate. What would Leave promise or threaten next time round?
> 
> Those who simply don't like the EU for whatever reason would not change their minds, but there would be enough to make another vote a dangerous proposition for Leavers.
> 
> Some, as you say, are sick of it all, but I really think they need to realise just how important this is.
> 
> As for your last question I think for most topics it is quite sufficient to have a General Election where parties put forward their manifesto and the people vote. I don't think they should get another definitive say until the next GE. On Brexit, Cameron decided on a referendum for political reasons, and having put the question to the people I think the answer should also be put to the people.
> 
> Then I think referendums should be banned. They are only demanded by those who think they can fool enough 'ignorant' voters to get an answer they would never achieve through Parliamentary democracy.


What did Thatcher (& Attlee) say about referendums?


----------



## Arnie83

So the UK govt have issued a proposal paper on the subject of an interim customs union during a transition period while we negotiate and prepare for our future trading relationship with the EU27.

In brief, along with the existing frictionless trade of the current system we have the requirement that we are able to negotiate bilateral trade deals that we can implement immediately the transition period ends.

The EU already have their own requirements, described by the rules covering customs union membership, which don't allow negotiation of such trade deals.

So what we're saying is that, in the opinion of the UK government, since our choice to leave the customs union in March 2019 is apparently sacrosanct, it is the EU who must make concessions in order to smooth our passage. On what planet is this any one of fair, reasonable or likely?


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think our government have lost the plot, do they really think the EU are going to rollover and give them everything they want.:Hilarious


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> So what we're saying is that, in the opinion of the UK government, since our choice to leave the customs union in March 2019 is apparently sacrosanct, it is the EU who must make concessions in order to smooth our passage. On what planet is this any one of fair, reasonable or likely?


The question must be asked.. who is this white paper for? Trade deals and concessions are not part of the leave negotiations. I can only assume therefore that this is yet another propaganda stunt for UK public consumption rather than actually trying to get negotiations to work and be successfull. Very little detail included, most noticeable.. Who for instance will mediate any resulting trade dispute? The government needs to forget playing to the UK populace as all they do is dig deeper holes they have trouble getting out of and deal with the main event.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> The question must be asked.. who is this white paper for? Trade deals and concessions are not part of the leave negotiations. I can only assume therefore that this is yet another propaganda stunt for UK public consumption rather than actually trying to get negotiations to work and be successfull. Very little detail included, most noticeable..* Who for instance will mediate any resulting trade dispute?* The government needs to forget playing to the UK populace as all they do is dig deeper holes they have trouble getting out of and deal with the main event.


This is a good point (not that the others aren't! ) because the Tories have vowed that there will be no more ECJ jurisdiction after March 2019, and they enforce the rules of the current customs union. The proposal paper doesn't mention the ECJ at all, so either we're looking to create a new body and expecting the EU to agree to that too, or we're going to back-track on the jurisdiction red line.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> I think our government have lost the plot, do they really think the EU are going to rollover and give them everything they want.:Hilarious


John Redwood says that they will, because the EU have more to lose from disrupting trade than we do. He still doesn't quite get it, does he.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> John Redwood says that they will, because the EU have more to lose from disrupting trade than we do.* He still doesn't quite get it, does he*.


As do a lot of leavers think the same, we'll just get what we what. :Hilarious what planet do they live on.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> As do a lot of leavers think the same, we'll just get what we what. :Hilarious what planet do they live on.


Planet Britain apparently.


----------



## noushka05

Well, who Knew?

*The government is using Brexit to take control away from citizens and give it to corporations *http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...l-bill-corporations-trade-deals-a7889926.html

*
How will Brexit affect the environment? Brexit means podcast *

*The topic we're looking at this week is a big one, and a fundamentally important one, encompassing the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat. Jon Henley is joined by an expert panel to try to figure out what on earth Brexit will mean for our environment*

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rexit-affect-environment-brexit-means-podcast


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Well, who Knew?
> 
> *The government is using Brexit to take control away from citizens and give it to corporations *http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...l-bill-corporations-trade-deals-a7889926.html
> 
> *
> How will Brexit affect the environment? Brexit means podcast *
> 
> *The topic we're looking at this week is a big one, and a fundamentally important one, encompassing the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat. Jon Henley is joined by an expert panel to try to figure out what on earth Brexit will mean for our environment*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rexit-affect-environment-brexit-means-podcast
> 
> View attachment 321546


All Leavers will say to that is :La, la, la I don't care, I want out!.
Some things , just like health, are appreciated when you lose them.


----------



## Satori

La, la, la I don't care, I want out!


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## kimthecat

la la la means I love you ( not you Satori !)


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> La, la, la I don't care, I want out!


You do not have to live or work.in UK.Couldn't you just have left alone, without dragging half of the nation ? Who dragged the rest ...

It must be that ego thing.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> You do not have to live or work.in UK.Couldn't you just have left alone, without dragging half of the nation ? Who dragged the rest ...
> 
> It must be that ego thing.


I only had one vote though. Would that I'd had the power to do the dragging; I'd have happily taken the ownership of the result too (for a commensurate remuneration of course). Couldn't have left that swamp alone, given any chance to empty it. Would have been nice to have someone lead the way rather than having a silly referendum. Democracy like this is just delegating the biggest decisions to the dumbest people. Still, the ends justify the means I guess: in a hundred years "all new people" and the better for it one hopes.


----------



## dorrit

I was speaking to a man we know as Beagle guy yesterday (he has 3 of them) turns out he is involved with the export of fruit /veggies etc from NL to the UK and realising OH and I are from the UK he asked what the heck was going on...

He explained he has a meeting later next week with a major supermarket chain and they have asked him to increase the prices on a sliding scale so that customers in the UK wont be so shocked by increases when Brexit finally happens and the trade deals are invalid..
He was astounded by this underhand stategy saying , Instead of trying to broker new deals they just want the customer to pay up.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The more I hear of the negations from our government, the more I dread the future. Is this really what leaves expected or wanted.


----------



## rona

dorrit said:


> I was speaking to a man we know as Beagle guy yesterday (he has 3 of them) turns out he is involved with the export of fruit /veggies etc from NL to the UK and realising OH and I are from the UK he asked what the heck was going on...
> 
> He explained he has a meeting later next week with a major supermarket chain and they have asked him to increase the prices on a sliding scale so that customers in the UK wont be so shocked by increases when Brexit finally happens and the trade deals are invalid..
> He was astounded by this underhand stategy saying , Instead of trying to broker new deals they just want the customer to pay up.


Mmm, how does that work then?

You can't see the flaw in this statement!!


----------



## KittenKong

Hmmm... Isn't this what Brexiteers want?
Using the Torygraph logic they should be thankful to the EU for wanting to keep its citizens out of glorious Britain and vice versa....


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Mmm, how does that work then?
> 
> You can't see the flaw in this statement!!


What, exactly, is so unexpected about the supermarket tactic? They want to protect their profits, so it makes sense for them to artificially raise prices now in order to have a shot at retaining their current profit margins post-Brexit when imports are more expensive, and potentially make a good bit extra in the meantime.


----------



## Elles

The Independent article header is misleading. The article itself is scaremongering about what the nasty Tories might do to us, not about anything they have done, or said they will do.

There are a couple of silver linings. The pound being weaker against the Euro has brought about a boom in tourism. The pound was as weak in 2008, long before any talk of referendums and Brexit. It's not all due to a weaker pound and Brexit anyway, the Eu has been dabbling with the Euro, making it stronger. Macron winning the French election also played a part.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> What, exactly, is so unexpected about the supermarket tactic? They want to protect their profits, so it makes sense for them to artificially raise prices now in order to have a shot at retaining their current profit margins post-Brexit when imports are more expensive, and potentially make a good bit extra in the meantime.


Why would a supermarket chain ask their supplier in the Netherlands to increase their prices in case they go up after Brexit? A supermarket using Brexit as an excuse to raise prices I can see, though we'd all just shop at a different one, but asking their supplier to increase prices? Makes no sense to me either.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Why would a supermarket chain ask their supplier in the Netherlands to increase their prices in case they go up after Brexit? A supermarket using Brexit as an excuse to raise prices I can see, though we'd all just shop at a different one, but asking their supplier to increase prices? Makes no sense to me either.


Pretty simple look-ahead economics for a controlling interest business, really, with the added bonus of potentially being able to raise prices more than necessary after Brexit without it being so obvious. Plus it gives them the excuse of the suppliers are raising prices to pass on to the customers.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 321720
> 
> 
> Hmmm... Isn't this what Brexiteers want?
> Using the Torygraph logic they should be thankful to the EU for wanting to keep its citizens out of glorious Britain and vice versa....


We need cctv at the negotiations, not just in abattoirs. Then biased journalists and uninvolved parties could stop speculating.


----------



## dorrit

Jesthar said:


> What, exactly, is so unexpected about the supermarket tactic? They want to protect their profits, so it makes sense for them to artificially raise prices now in order to have a shot at retaining their current profit margins post-Brexit when imports are more expensive, and potentially make a good bit extra in the meantime.


Point is from this side of the channel all we see is pointy fingers saying evil EU are doing this or that when its not really all that way at all.. oh and if its sensible for them to raise their prices I suppose no one will moan? or is that too much to ask.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Pretty simple look-ahead economics for a controlling interest business, really, with the added bonus of potentially being able to raise prices more than necessary after Brexit without it being so obvious. Plus it gives them the excuse of the suppliers are raising prices to pass on to the customers.


So how do the supermarkets increase profits until the prices do go up, if the prices are going up, because they asked them to?


----------



## Jesthar

dorrit said:


> Point is from this side of the channel all we see is pointy fingers saying evil EU are doing this or that when its not really all that way at all.. oh and if its sensible for them to raise their prices I suppose no one will moan? or is that too much to ask.


Well, that is what most of the big corporations (and I include most news outlets in that) want - the more they can get the masses to blame the EU for things, the more they can get away with.



Elles said:


> So how do the supermarkets increase profits until the prices do go up, if the prices are going up, because they asked them to?


You don't think the supermarkets will only increase prices in line with the higher supplier prices, do you?


----------



## Elles

They already have an excuse, the weaker pound, they don't need to pay higher prices from a supplier. Many stores operate in mainland Europe too. The more expensive ones are already having trouble competing with the cheaper German stores. Its one guy saying it and it makes no sense. Market forces also drive prices, not a conspiracy and as price fixing is illegal, they'll carry on as normal trying to compete on price and perceived quality imo. Not tell their suppliers in the Netherlands to increase prices to the British before we've even left.

That's all beside the point really. We are still in the Eu and price discrimination is against Eu law. The supplier can't charge British customers more than other Eu countries for the same product, just because they're British.


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> la la la means I love you ( not you Satori !)


Not necessarily....


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> They already have an excuse, the weaker pound, they don't need to pay higher prices from a supplier. Many stores operate in mainland Europe too. The more expensive ones are already having trouble competing with the cheaper German stores. Its one guy saying it and it makes no sense. Market forces also drive prices, not a conspiracy and as price fixing is illegal, they'll carry on as normal trying to compete on price and perceived quality imo. Not tell their suppliers in the Netherlands to increase prices to the British before we've even left.
> 
> That's all beside the point really. We are still in the Eu and price discrimination is against Eu law. The supplier can't charge British customers more than other Eu countries for the same product, just because they're British.


Your naievity is touching, I'll give you that...


----------



## Elles

Why am I naive? We are still in the Eu and price discrimination based on country is against Eu law. Supermarkets can increase their prices any time they like. If they want a Brexit excuse they can use the weaker pound without breaking Eu law. What is naive about that?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Why am I naive? We are still in the Eu and price discrimination based on country is against Eu law. Supermarkets can increase their prices any time they like. If they want a Brexit excuse they can use the weaker pound without breaking Eu law. What is naive about that?


And you honestly think big businesses play by the rules...? Particularly when playing the long game?


----------



## Elles

So what's the point in staying in the Eu if big business is going to ignore all the rules and regulations anyway? It would only take one whistleblower to tell the Eu that deliberate price discrimination is afoot for the supplier to face huge fines. They'll risk it so British supermarkets can use it as an excuse to raise prices? Oh of course, they can't actually tell anyone and use it as an excuse, because what they'd be doing would be illegal and get the supplier into the mire. Unless we read about a NL supplier being fined, I think in this instance it's fake news.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> So what's the point in staying in the Eu if big business is going to ignore all the rules and regulations anyway? It would only take one whistleblower to tell the Eu that deliberate price discrimination is afoot for the supplier to face huge fines. They'll risk it so British supermarkets can use it as an excuse to raise prices? Oh of course, they can't actually tell anyone and use it as an excuse, because what they'd be doing would be illegal and get the supplier into the mire. Unless we read about a NL supplier being fined, I think in this instance it's fake news.


That's a bit like saying what's the point in having trade unions if big business is going to try and screw the workers anyway. You can't stop all the corruption, but a united front makes it more likely that you might stop SOME of it.

I have no reason to believe Dorrit is being untruthful about the question asked of her, and I have no reason to believe the question asked of her was not genuine. Whistleblowers need irrefutable evidence and a heck of a lot of courage to report anything, and even then many are not believed - plus there's the added side benefit of powerful people being able to make your life hell very easily.

I don't for one second think the suppliers would care about the prices supermarkets charge over here, only what they can get paid. If they can get paid more for the same thing and think they can justify it if questioned, and it also gives them leverage for future deals, you think none of them won't? They obviously want to keep on selling their veg to the UK after Brexit, and if they believe they can adopt a strategy which gives them an edge (a gradual drip-feed price increase being less likely to put off consumers than one massive price hike hit come Brexit) with those they are selling to, they'd be mad not to take it if they think they swing it.

What, cynical, moi?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Why am I naive? We are still in the Eu and *price discrimination based on country is against Eu law*. Supermarkets can increase their prices any time they like. If they want a Brexit excuse they can use the weaker pound without breaking Eu law. What is naive about that?


Is it?


----------



## Guest

Our analysis of Britain is that your negotiators have been quarralling with each other so far and now, finally, the "soft Brexit" side has started to overtake the negotiations. And the reason being is that the "hard" Brexit would have destroyed your businesses, and that was the price even May&co couldn´t pay.

Now we are simply folling how step By step British become aware of the price you pay for something you already had.

(I forgot to post it a few days ago, and maybe it´s just old news now )


----------



## Elles

I believe you MrsZee. The government doesn't want to leave the Eu never has and made no plans for it. The more David Davies reports back, the nearer it looks to leaving in name, if at all, but remaining in spirit. Of course I've been saying it all along, so if I'm wrong, ok, and if I'm right, well I told you so. :Hilarious

And yes it is @Arnie83. I'm having dinner, or I'd try to find the relevant law. A supplier, manufacturer, store, wholesaler etc are not permitted to discriminate based on country. They couldn't sell apples to Poland for 10p and apples to Germany for 12p. They can do bulk discounts and the like of course, but they can't just put the prices up to Britain. The only way they could I suppose, would be if Britain was their only customer. Unlikely for a wholesaler based in NL. Lidl and Aldi are German so it can't be them talking about it. I do 90% of my shop in Lidl or Aldi, so I don't care.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> I believe you MrsZee. The government doesn't want to leave the Eu never has and made no plans for it. The more David Davies reports back, the nearer it looks to leaving in name, if at all, but remaining in spirit. Of course I've been saying it all along, so if I'm wrong, ok, and if I'm right, well I told you so. :Hilarious .


I guess the question is, once the real facts are there, do you still want to leave EU? Is that what genuily benefits British people or is it something that benefits only some?


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> They couldn't sell apples to Poland for 10p and apples to Germany for 12p.


Which works fine at point of sale or immediate purchase as you are not dealing with exchange rate fluctuations. Now if you have a 6 month fixed price contract and expect the exchange rate to change it's a whole other ball game. No you couldn't sell apples to poland and to germany at different prices in euro. However selling to other non-euro countries it depends on the potential exchange rate. It's not expected to get better for the UK in the short term. So in 6 months you expect the price to be 150 where as now it's 100. Why not make it in a couple of steps whereby you can adjust as necessary and take less risk. 3 months paying 125 instead.


----------



## Elles

I don't know whether they will or not tbh. @MrsZee It depends on what we're told. At the moment there's a lot of speculation based on anti Tory sentiment. Once we're out of the Eu the Tories will take over, the uk will be under a dictatorship and everyone who isn't rich will be dead within the week, because the Tories want to get rid of all the poor, sell the NHS to America and turn Britain into a tax haven. Apparently.

We can see a bit of what they're actually saying and read letters on the parliamentary website.

I presume a NL wholesaler will have his prices in Euros and the buyer will be the one worrying about exchange rates.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I don't know whether they will or not tbh. @MrsZee It depends on what we're told. At the moment there's a lot of speculation based on anti Tory sentiment. Once we're out of the Eu the Tories will take over, the uk will be under a dictatorship and everyone who isn't rich will be dead within the week, because the Tories want to get rid of all the poor, sell the NHS to America and turn Britain into a tax haven. Apparently.
> 
> .


:Jawdrop We will walk the Boulevard of Broken dreams and all because we didnt have a Plan B


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I don't know whether they will or not tbh. @MrsZee It depends on what we're told. At the moment there's a lot of speculation based on anti Tory sentiment. Once we're out of the Eu the Tories will take over, the uk will be under a dictatorship and everyone who isn't rich will be dead within the week, because the Tories want to get rid of all the poor, sell the NHS to America and turn Britain into a tax haven. Apparently.
> 
> We can see a bit of what they're actually saying and read letters on the parliamentary website.
> 
> I presume a NL wholesaler will have his prices in Euros and the buyer will be the one worrying about exchange rates.


There's plenty of hard evidence to show what the tories are doing if you care to look. Plenty from straight from the horses mouth in fact. Look at the governments ideology, who bankrolls the party - who they really represent. If its too close to home, look at the agenda of their conservative counterparts over in the USA


----------



## dorrit

Im out... I only repeated what I was told... I will be glad when Brexit is over because the whole thing wont affect me. But hopefully the whinging and the rows will be over until then its.....
popcorn time

.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> And yes it is @Arnie83. I'm having dinner, or I'd try to find the relevant law. A supplier, manufacturer, store, wholesaler etc are not permitted to discriminate based on country. They couldn't sell apples to Poland for 10p and apples to Germany for 12p. They can do bulk discounts and the like of course, but they can't just put the prices up to Britain. The only way they could I suppose, would be if Britain was their only customer. Unlikely for a wholesaler based in NL. Lidl and Aldi are German so it can't be them talking about it. I do 90% of my shop in Lidl or Aldi, so I don't care.


If you can find it I'd like to see it.

I know there will be great differences in prices that arise from transport costs, taxation and mark-ups between wholesaling and shop shelves, so I'd be interested to see the actual rules that apply earlier on in the sales process.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> I guess the question is, once the real facts are there, do you still want to leave EU? Is that what genuily benefits British people or is it something that benefits only some?


The tories are trying to bury studies showing the impact a hard brexit will have on us. They dont want us to know the truth. Many who voted leave have no interest in knowing how we will be affected mind. Must be nice to live in a state of ignorance in a way. Reality will have to hit home at some point though. I wonder how many will have the spine to admit its because of brexit when the wheels come off?

Government hides over 50 secret studies on impacts of Brexit. Thanks to Greens Molly Scott Cato for this.

http://mollymep.org.uk/2017/08/11/mep-slams-govt-for-hiding-50-studies-impacts-of-brexit/


----------



## noushka05

Anyone else going to this? We're definitely hoping to make it


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Anyone else going to this? We're definitely hoping to make it
> 
> View attachment 321848


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Anyone else going to this? We're definitely hoping to make it
> 
> View attachment 321848


Quick question - exactly how has the EU given us 70 years of peace?


----------



## kimthecat

Do these people really believe that holding rallies will make any government reverse the outcome of the referendum?
All they are doing is causing more disunity .


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Quick question - exactly how has the EU given us 70 years of peace?


That common question is a very easy way to pour scorn on the notion, since there has been no obvious flashpoint, or armies massing on European borders, where the EU Commission has stepped in and calmed things down. But in a way that just adds weight to the argument that the EU has brought peace.

The idea of the EU - actually its earliest forerunner - was that by tying the nations ever closer together in terms of economic cooperation, and growing political juxtaposition, the very idea of war between member states would become unthinkable.

It now is. They may argue and disagree among themselves, but the idea that members of the EU would start killing each other in a war is, nowadays, ridiculous, any more than Florida would declare war on Maine.

The European continent has seen almost constant conflict for centuries, with few short periods of relative peace. Since the European Coal and Steel Community first began the experiment of tying the nations together in a way that promised mutual economic collapse in the event of conflict; nothing.

Some - mostly UK Leave voters - say the EU had nothing to do with it. It was all some big coincidence that the body created to bring peace has seen 70 years of peace purely by chance. Others, notably European politicians who know their history, and not to mention the Nobel prize committee who awarded the EU the Peace Prize, think rather differently.

Some - also mostly UK Leave voters - point to NATO as the guarantor of peace. And on a global scale, it has certainly been a peacekeeping organisation. Within the EU, though, it hasn't had to be, because conflict to the point of potential war has not arisen.

You may disagree, of course, but the only alternative explanation is a very coincidental and unprecedented change of human behaviour, which I find less likely than that the logic behind the creation of the EU by its intelligent progenitors - including Churchill - has proven to be sound.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> That common question is a very easy way to pour scorn on the notion, since there has been no obvious flashpoint, or armies massing on European borders, where the EU Commission has stepped in and calmed things down. But in a way that just adds weight to the argument that the EU has brought peace.
> 
> The idea of the EU - actually its earliest forerunner - was that by tying the nations ever closer together in terms of economic cooperation, and growing political juxtaposition, the very idea of war between member states would become unthinkable.
> 
> It now is. They may argue and disagree among themselves, but the idea that members of the EU would start killing each other in a war is, nowadays, ridiculous, any more than Florida would declare war on Maine.
> 
> The European continent has seen almost constant conflict for centuries, with few short periods of relative peace. Since the European Coal and Steel Community first began the experiment of tying the nations together in a way that promised mutual economic collapse in the event of conflict; nothing.
> 
> Some - mostly UK Leave voters - say the EU had nothing to do with it. It was all some big coincidence that the body created to bring peace has seen 70 years of peace purely by chance. Others, notably European politicians who know their history, and not to mention the Nobel prize committee who awarded the EU the Peace Prize, think rather differently.
> 
> Some - also mostly UK Leave voters - point to NATO as the guarantor of peace. And on a global scale, it has certainly been a peacekeeping organisation. Within the EU, though, it hasn't had to be, because conflict to the point of potential war has not arisen.
> 
> You may disagree, of course, but the only alternative explanation is a very coincidental and unprecedented change of human behaviour, which I find less likely than that the logic behind the creation of the EU by its intelligent progenitors - including Churchill - has proven to be sound.


The EU has only been such since 1993. Now my maths sucks, but even I know that's not 70 years. Entirely disingenuous to claim it was them. Where does the UN and NATO fit into this propaganda?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> That common question is a very easy way to pour scorn on the notion, since there has been no obvious flashpoint, or armies massing on European borders, where the EU Commission has stepped in and calmed things down. But in a way that just adds weight to the argument that the EU has brought peace.
> 
> The idea of the EU - actually its earliest forerunner - was that by tying the nations ever closer together in terms of economic cooperation, and growing political juxtaposition, the very idea of war between member states would become unthinkable.
> 
> It now is. They may argue and disagree among themselves, but the idea that members of the EU would start killing each other in a war is, nowadays, ridiculous, any more than Florida would declare war on Maine.
> 
> The European continent has seen almost constant conflict for centuries, with few short periods of relative peace. Since the European Coal and Steel Community first began the experiment of tying the nations together in a way that promised mutual economic collapse in the event of conflict; nothing.
> 
> Some - mostly UK Leave voters - say the EU had nothing to do with it. It was all some big coincidence that the body created to bring peace has seen 70 years of peace purely by chance. Others, notably European politicians who know their history, and not to mention the Nobel prize committee who awarded the EU the Peace Prize, think rather differently.
> 
> Some - also mostly UK Leave voters - point to NATO as the guarantor of peace. And on a global scale, it has certainly been a peacekeeping organisation. Within the EU, though, it hasn't had to be, because conflict to the point of potential war has not arisen.
> 
> You may disagree, of course, but the only alternative explanation is a very coincidental and unprecedented change of human behaviour, which I find less likely than that the logic behind the creation of the EU by its intelligent progenitors - including Churchill - has proven to be sound.


EU also did nothing about Kosovo, that was NATO


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> That common question is a very easy way to pour scorn on the notion, since there has been no obvious flashpoint, or armies massing on European borders, where the EU Commission has stepped in and calmed things down. .


its not pouring scorn , its pointing out inaccuracies , if they are going to hold mass rallies then perhaps the organisers should check their facts otherwise they are giving out false or exaggerated information , I'm sure its not deliberate but it does make them look rather ignorant .


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Many who voted leave have no interest in knowing how we will be affected mind. Must be nice to live in a state of ignorance in a way.


Ignorance is indeed bliss, and avoids what might otherwise be a troubling dichotomy.

The important thing for many of the Leavers is the sovereignty of the British tribe; that there are no foreigners able to tell us what to do, either by ceded authority or by democratic vote where we are not in the majority. The tribe is all, and once we cut the ties, we can once again be proud.

What is not considered is that the British tribe only exists as the people within it. "Britain" is an intellectual construct, no more, no less. It has no physical existence except that which we imagine to be conferred by our acceptance of its boundaries as drawn on a map.

Recognising the fact would force them to concede that their primitively tribal ego boost is more important to them than the suffering that will be inflicted on many, 
especially the poorest and least able to cope, of the real people who make up their imagined tribe.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> Ignorance is indeed bliss, and avoids what might otherwise be a troubling dichotomy.
> 
> The important thing for many of the Leavers is the sovereignty of the British tribe; that there are no foreigners able to tell us what to do, either by ceded authority or by democratic vote where we are not in the majority. The tribe is all, and once we cut the ties, we can once again be proud.
> 
> What is not considered is that the British tribe only exists as the people within it. "Britain" is an intellectual construct, no more, no less. It has no physical existence except that which we imagine to be conferred by our acceptance of its boundaries as drawn on a map.
> 
> Recognising the fact would force them to concede that their primitively tribal ego boost is more important to them than the suffering that will be inflicted on many,
> especially the poorest and least able to cope, of the real people who make up their imagined tribe.


And some still think Britain is great and still has an empire


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> The EU has only been such since 1993. Now my maths sucks, but even I know that's not 70 years. Entirely disingenuous to claim it was them. Where does the UN and NATO fit into this propaganda?


Do you expect people to refer to every form the the EU has taken since the Treaty of Rome?

I think I addressed your NATO point in my post, and the same goes for the UN.

The fact is that very few people on the continent of Europe would give credence to the notion that the EU - and its predecessors - have created the conditions which have allowed peace to hold sway since WWII.

Just about the only people who argue otherwise are those who will never accept that any good has, does or will come from it.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Do you expect people to refer to every form the the EU has taken since the Treaty of Rome?
> 
> I think I addressed your NATO point in my post, and the same goes for the UN.
> 
> The fact is that very few people on the continent of Europe would give credence to the notion that the EU - and its predecessors - have created the conditions which have allowed peace to hold sway since WWII.
> 
> Just about the only people who argue otherwise are those who will never accept that any good has, does or will come from it.


Your answer about NATO was pretty much that they had nothing to do with peace in Europe, it was the EU. Yet the EU didn't exist until 1993 and did absolutely nothing about Kosovo


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> EU also did nothing about Kosovo, that was NATO


Kosovo wasn't a member of the EU. The EU - and its predecessors - were created to ensure peace between its members.

Edit: And the fact that its name changed to EU only in 1993 is, if you'll excuse me, a rather weak argument.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Kosovo wasn't a member of the EU. The EU - and its predecessors - were created to ensure peace between its members.


The flyer quite specifically states Europe, not EU


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> The flyer quite specifically states Europe, not EU


So if the flyer were to be altered to say that it has given EU member states peace for 70 years, I assume you'd be happy.

Or would you say, "Is that all?"


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> So if the flyer were to be altered to say that it has given EU member states peace for 70 years, I assume you'd be happy.
> 
> Or would you say, "Is that all?"


No, because the EU hasn't existed for 70 years. Still disingenuous


----------



## Elles

The Eu (under any name) was pretty small to start with. The countries involved had already fought 2 world wars that only Germany had wanted. Most Eu countries hadn't been warmongering amongst themselves since the 19th century. I'm not sure how much of it is down to the Eu and how much down to democracy, Germany not being allowed an army and wmd meaning that declaring war on your physical neighbour in the west, especially a strong wealthy neighbour who's best buddies with the USofA, is a really, really bad idea.

If you want to fight, best take it outside. Which we did. Hence Iraq, the Falklands etc.


----------



## kimthecat

@Arnie83 We already know your beliefs about Tribal Britain , you've mentioned it many times 

These last fews posts are about the rallies being organised and the mis information on the posters, and your reply covered that in one sentence!
its seems its o.k for the Organisers to mis-inform because it suits the remainers and they will chose to ignore it .


----------



## KittenKong

I most strongly disagree.

Think of the times women demanded the vote and the rallies against the Poll Tax as two good examples?

No, we don't expect the government to listen. They have their own agenda.

But there is much opposition to their plans. May losing her majority in the recent General election gamble is clear evidence of that.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> The Eu (under any name) was pretty small to start with. The countries involved had already fought 2 world wars that only Germany had wanted. Most Eu countries hadn't been warmongering amongst themselves since the 19th century. I'm not sure how much of it is down to the Eu and how much down to democracy, Germany not being allowed an army and wmd meaning that declaring war on your physical neighbour in the west, especially a strong wealthy neighbour who's best buddies with the USofA, is a really, really bad idea.


It was the USSR that was the biggest threat to Europe after WW2 , thank goodness for NATO .
European countries had been devastated and was in no position to fight another war which allowed Russia to gain more ground .

ETA I edited this , the Soviet Union was formed before WW2 .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 321872
> 
> 
> I most strongly disagree.
> 
> Think of the times women demanded the vote and the rallies against the Poll Tax as two good examples?
> 
> No, we don't expect the government to listen. They have their own agenda.
> 
> But there is much opposition to their plans. May losing her majority in the recent General election gamble is clear evidence of that.


You do realise that Corbyn will not back out of Europe and stick to the referendum results .


----------



## Elles

I think if they keep it up and enough people turn up, give it another year and the government may well find a way to put it back to the people. Don't forget, the government we currently have don't actually want to leave. They could find a way to put it to another vote, if they think they'll win it. The Lib Dems have already opened the door. We'll see.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> You do realise that Corbyn will not back out of Europe and stick to the referendum results .


I think Corbyn would be more likely to stick to Brexit and mean it, then the Tories personally. Just speculation though.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I think Corbyn would be more likely to stick to Brexit and mean it, then the Tories personally. Just speculation though.


 if they hold another election we might find out , he might win it !


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> if they hold another election we might find out , he might win it !


God help us


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I think if they keep it up and enough people turn up, give it another year and the government may well find a way to put it back to the people. Don't forget, the government we currently have don't actually want to leave. They could find a way to put it to another vote, if they think they'll win it. The Lib Dems have already opened the door. We'll see.


then we'll have brexiteer holding rallies , eek , it could go on for ever - will we or wont we leave .

if another referendum ever happened though , I personally would accept the result .

I think the uncertainty and arguments are damaging us . The rallies will damage us .
its been said here that the world is laughing at us because we voted to leave but i think they are laughing because we didn't have a plan and now we are fighting about it and trying to get it reversed .

I think Arnie said these first years are very important , the neogiations are very important for the long term future, but who would want to negotiate business and invest in a country that's still arguing with itself ?


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> No, because the EU hasn't existed for 70 years. Still disingenuous


Okay, they should have included all the previous names of the EU, starting with the European Coal and Steel Community, or perhaps a link to Wikipedia.

But I think that calling it solely by its current name might not rank as a democratic con job on the scale of promising £350 million a week (that never existed) to the NHS.


----------



## Arnie83

On another matter entirely - why is it that I don't get notified when I'm tagged in a post despite having it ticked in Alert Preferences?

Heaven knows how many admonishments I'm missing!


----------



## Elles

People keep blaming the Tories and going on about all the advantages to the Tories and the wealthy elite and all the rest of it. Selling off the NHS, importing cheap poison from America, doing what they like to the UK etc etc because of Brexit.

They wanted to stay in. Cameron's government wanted to stay in. Theresa May would rather stay in. Most of the wealthy elite and financial institutions wanted to stay in. None of them could see all these wonderful advantages of power, wealth and control they'd get from leaving. So why keep on about the Tories? Many Tory voters want to stay in. Labour are in as much, if not more disarray than the Conservatives. Lib Dems are practically invisible. 

It's a cross party issue. Talk about the Eu, hold banners about the Eu. Making it about the current government not only muddies the water, but failing another general election which the Tories would have to agree to, are actually the people you want to influence.


----------



## Happy Paws2

That might have been true once, but from what I can see now is, all the the Tories are thinking about is themselves and want they'll get out of it.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Happy Paws said:


> That might have been true once, but from what I can see now is, all the the Tories are thinking about is themselves and want they'll get out of it.


The current government are doing what they were meant to do - listen to the people. The people voted out, so as much as the majority of Tory politicians didn't want to do it, they're doing their job


----------



## Happy Paws2

MiffyMoo said:


> *The current government are doing what they were meant to do - listen to the people*. The people voted out, so as much as the majority of Tory politicians didn't want to do it, they're doing their job


The only people they listen to are themselves and what they can get out of it, they couldn't care a st** for you and I.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Happy Paws said:


> The only people they listen to are themselves and what they can get out of it, they couldn't care a st** for you and I.


Did you read the rest? They want to remain


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> The only people they listen to are themselves and what they can get out of it, they couldn't care a st** for you and I.


A bit like all those years of Blair lining his pockets and securing his lucrative future then


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> The only people they listen to are themselves and what they can get out of it, they couldn't care a *st** *for you and I.


I don't think I'm familiar with that one! 

Throughout this whole affair there has been a conflict between what people believe, what's good for the country, and what's good for the Tories. And each time the last of those three seems to win out.

Hence the original referendum, May's change from Remainer to Leaver, from Hard v. Soft to a sort of mushy compromise ...


----------



## kimthecat

@rona

and MPs from both Tory and Labour parties fiddling their expenses.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Happy Paws said:


> The only people they listen to are themselves and what they can get out of it, they couldn't care a st** for you and I.


The Tories _have_ increased the standard personal tax allowance from £6000 to £11,500 since 2010. Surely this is to the benefit of the poor and those making do on a low wage. (Like me)


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> You do realise that Corbyn will not back out of Europe and stick to the referendum results .


Did I mention Corbyn? What on earth has it got to do with him?
Apparently there was a pro EU protest when he spoke at the Durham Miner's Gala.

That's the one and only disagreement I have with him. Having said that as much as I'm against Brexit I'm sure they'll do a better job than the bunch of clowns making the UK look more stupid by the minute.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Did I mention Corbyn? What on earth has it got to do with him?


We were talking about the rallies
You said
"No, we don't expect the government to listen. They have their own agenda.

But there is much opposition to their plans. May losing her majority in the recent General election gamble is clear evidence of that. "

May lost her majority and Labour increased theirs , Corbyn is the current leader of the Opposition party and if there is another election before Brexit and if the Tories lose , he will be the next PM and he's not going to change anything either . 
That's what its got to do with him .

Whats the point of these rallies , what do they hope to achieve apart from discord. ?


----------



## Happy Paws2

MiffyMoo said:


> Did you read the rest? They want to remain


Yes



samuelsmiles said:


> The Tories _have_ increased the standard personal tax allowance from £6000 to £11,500 since 2010. Surely this is to the benefit of the poor and those making do on a low wage. (Like me)


They haven't really do much for the state pension, it would be nice if we got the something like the living wage. (for people like me)


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="kimthecat, post: 1064950311, member: 
May lost her majority and Labour increased theirs , Corbyn is the current leader of the Opposition party and if there is another election before Brexit and if the Tories lose , he will be the next PM and he's not going to change anything either . 
That's what its got to do with him .

Whats the point of these rallies , what do they hope to achieve apart from discord. ?[/QUOTE]

Yes I agree with your first point. I was pointing out these pro EU events have nothing to do with supporting Corbyn.

Yes, I voted Labour in the last election, in view of Corbyn's stance it was a difficult choice but I'm in one of those areas which could easily turn Tory so chose to vote tactically.

Actually the Tories did quite well, increasing their share of the vote despite their candidate living in the South of England(!) and not bothering to canvas nor distribute leaflets. At least we never received any.

I'm sure the authorities in East Germany silenced critics of the Berlin Wall. So why should anti Brexit campaigners do the same?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> [QUOTE="kimthecat, post: 1064950311, member:
> May lost her majority and Labour increased theirs , Corbyn is the current leader of the Opposition party and if there is another election before Brexit and if the Tories lose , he will be the next PM and he's not going to change anything either .
> That's what its got to do with him .
> 
> Whats the point of these rallies , what do they hope to achieve apart from discord. ?


Yes I agree with your first point. I was pointing out these pro EU events have nothing to do with supporting Corbyn.

Yes, I voted Labour in the last election, in view of Corbyn's stance it was a difficult choice but I'm in one of those areas which could easily turn Tory so chose to vote tactically.

Actually the Tories did quite well, increasing their share of the vote despite their candidate living in the South of England(!) and not bothering to canvas nor distribute leaflets. At least we never received any.

I'm sure the authorities in East Germany silenced critics of the Berlin Wall. So why should anti Brexit campaigners do the same?[/QUOTE]
Berlin Wall still would be standing if not for the rallies...the strikes ..the demos....
How else Poland and the rest got released from Soviet grip?
I remember well that propaganda - rallies are diving the country...they are the work of capitalist provocateurs. ..so much more...
Yet we went on...and on...till we brought the Iron Curtain down...


----------



## Elles

There are other marches involving cross party politicians and ex politicians that talk about Brexit and the Eu. There's one in London in September, Nick Clegg is one of the speakers. 

There will be a number of groups attending the October march, which is outside the Conservative party conference. Not all the pro Eu groups are also anti conservative, but are more about protesting in favour of the Lib Dem suggestion of a further vote based on the eventual negotiation result, or on holding a second referendum. They aren't all about the nasty Tories and divisions thankfully. Conservative voters who voted remain and are keen to show their support can no doubt find a suitable group to join.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yes I agree with your first point. I was pointing out these pro EU events have nothing to do with supporting Corbyn.


I never said they were .

@cheekyscrip As for the Berlin wall , that was built to keep the German people in and I m pretty sure the Berliners didn't vote to build one


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Berlin Wall still would be standing if not for the rallies...the strikes ..the demos....
> How else Poland and the rest got released from Soviet grip?
> I remember well that propaganda - rallies are diving the country...they are the work of capitalist provocateurs. ..so much more...
> Yet we went on...and on...till we brought the Iron Curtain down...


who's we ?
I'm really sure strikes and rallies aren't going help to this country in general , they're pretty damaging ! 
We could just vote in a government that promises another referendum but then again we might get the same result .


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> who's we ?
> I'm really sure strikes and rallies aren't going help to this country in general , they're pretty damaging !
> We could just vote in a government that promises *another referendum but then again we might get the same result* .


I think, if we knew what we know now, the miss handling of Brexit and all the lies we were told by the leave campaign, the result would be very different.


----------



## Elles

I don't think brexiting Britain can be compared to the struggles behind the Iron Curtain and the Berlin Wall. 

We have a democracy and more people voted leave than stay. 

We weren't taken into the polling booths at gunpoint and threatened with a stint in Siberia if we didn't vote the way the government wanted. If we had we'd be staying in. 

The marches could be viewed as marches against democracy. Unless it's leavers marching because they changed their minds, it's people marching to override the result of a democratic vote and persuade the government to go against it. They aren't marching against the government, they're marching against the result of a vote.

The conservatives can't use the marches as an excuse to stay in the Eu, but I guess they could use it to hold another referendum.

Are there any speakers at these rallies who were formerly leavers, but now want to remain?


----------



## Arnie83

Just to ensure that all sides get their predictions aired ...

*'Hard' Brexit offers '£135bn annual boost' to economy*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

But before you get all excited and start spending your share of the money; it won't happen.


----------



## Elles

More speculation.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> We have a democracy and more people voted leave than stay.


Yet many whose lives are affected most did not get a vote.



> The marches could be viewed as marches against democracy. Unless it's leavers marching because they changed their minds, it's people marching to override the result of a democratic vote and persuade the government to go against it.


Abandoning the concept that:

Referendums in the UK are opinion polls, nothing more. Certain aspects of society were highlighted and many could be addressed without necessarily damaging the country and it's people. Immigration of people from outside the EU being an great example. Actually enforcing the EU rules about free movement another. Simply actually telling the truth and not using the EU as a scapegoat yet another.

Democracy includes changing minds as well as campaigning even when you are in a minority. Those who complain about those campaigning against leaving are actually the ones who are pushing to stifle democracy.
If those who wish to leave want to unite the country behind them it's easy. Explain advantages to leaving which cannot be pulled to pieces by looking at reality and facts and stop pretending we live in never never land or back in the past when we ruled the world through mechantism backed by miliary might. Trouble is people can't.


----------



## Elles

If those who wish to remain want to unite the country behind them, far more important for them we are actually leaving atm, they should stop with the lies, exaggerations and scaremongering and come up with persuasive arguments and facts to change leave voters' minds.

Leave voters don't have to persuade anyone of anything, they're getting what they wanted ( well, kind of, sort of) It's the Remain voters who need to put on their thinking caps.

I haven't seen anything that would persuade a leave voter to change their mind yet.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Leave voters don't have to persuade anyone of anything, they're getting what they wanted ( well, kind of, sort of) It's the Remain voters who need to put on their thinking caps.
> 
> I haven't seen anything that would persuade a leave voter to change their mind yet.


Quite the reverse as far as I'm concerned. I'm even more convinced that we are leaving in the nick of time.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Quite the reverse as far as I'm concerned. I'm even more convinced that we are leaving in the nick of time.


May I ask - though, if experience is anything to go by, without much hope of a response - what is about to happen that makes this the nick of time?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If those who wish to remain want to unite the country behind them, far more important for them we are actually leaving atm, they should stop with the *lies, exaggerations and scaremongering *and come up with persuasive arguments and facts to change leave voters' minds.
> 
> Leave voters don't have to persuade anyone of anything, they're getting what they wanted ( well, kind of, sort of) It's the Remain voters who need to put on their thinking caps.
> 
> I haven't seen anything that would persuade a leave voter to change their mind yet.


What are the 'remainers' now saying that qualify under these headings?


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> Just to ensure that all sides get their predictions aired ...


Ah professor Minford. One of the minority of economists who campaigned alongside the leave campaign, you know the ones who stated 350million per week for the NHS. 80% of economists do not agree with him. His assumption is the idea of "Free trade". Unfortunately outside the EU we still have the WTO.

https://www.ft.com/content/2a009b7c-2d71-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> I think, if we knew what we know now, the miss handling of Brexit and all the lies we were told by the leave campaign, the result would be very different.


I doubt that.

There was a time I thought that might be the case; that, faced with the cold realities of implementation, a significant number of those who voted to leave might change their minds given the chance. However the General Election in June of this year proved otherwise didn't it? The Conservative and Labour parties promised to go full steam ahead with Brexit and the Lib Dims promised to reverse the decision. 82% of the vote went to Con/Lab. Pretty conclusive, no?


----------



## rona

I believe they are trying to shift more power to Brussels and make it virtually impossible for any individual countries to hold a referendum. 
Something about a new constitution


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Ah professor Minford. One of the minority of economists who campaigned alongside the leave campaign, you know the ones who stated 350million per week for the NHS. 80% of economists do not agree with him. His assumption is the idea of "Free trade". Unfortunately outside the EU we still have the WTO.
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/2a009b7c-2d71-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc


Yes, that's why I said it wasn't going to happen. The 'Economists for Brexit' group have always been, shall we say, on the fringes. A bit like climate change denying scientists, but proportionately fewer.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I believe they are trying to shift more power to Brussels and make it virtually impossible for any individual countries to hold a referendum.
> Something about a new constitution


Do you have a source for that belief?

And why would we not simply veto it, since Treaty change requires unanimity.


----------



## Honeys mum

Happy Paws said:


> all the lies we were told by the leave campaign, the result would be very different.


The leave campaign were not the only ones who told lies. The remain side did plenty of that as well.
Both sides were at fault.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Yes, that's why I said it wasn't going to happen. The 'Economists for Brexit' group have always been, shall we say, on the fringes. A bit like climate change denying scientists, but proportionately fewer.


Economists are soothsayers and gamblers, who make it up as they go along. The only ones I believe are the ones who say "I don't know". There are a few of those too.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> *Economists are soothsayers and gamblers, who make it up as they go along.* The only ones I believe are the ones who say "I don't know". There are a few of those too.




To be fair, while the principles are logical - e.g. demand goes up, prices rise; labour becomes scarce, waged rise etc - there is always an element of uncertainty because accurate predictions depend on the reactions of people.

So after the Brexit vote: Are they going to get nervous about the future, sit on their savings and stop spending because the rainy day is coming (as we expected), or do they see two or three years as so far ahead that they need not worry about it yet, and act accordingly, which, added to the feel-good factor of the Leavers who had got what they wanted, actually meant that they kept right on spending.

That was part of the reason the economy didn't do what many were predicting (along with Osborne leaving, Hammond changing direction and the BoE throwing money at the economy).

(As an aside, though, it doesn't mean the predictions were lies. They were just wrong.)


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Economists are soothsayers and gamblers, who make it up as they go along. The only ones I believe are the ones who say "I don't know". There are a few of those too.


Who do you want to listen to more when planning a picnic... Joe Blogs down the pub or the weather forecast?


----------



## Elles

Predictably, if the accuracy of the weather forecast is in question, someone will link This:


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Predictably, if the accuracy of the weather forecast is in question, someone will link This:


I remember that well, boy was that a storm, nearly destroyed Kew Gardens,


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Predictably, if the accuracy of the weather forecast is in question, someone will link This


And the reason it's so memorable is that it is the exception. Weathermen occasionally get in wrong but in the main they get predictions right and certainly point out trends. Now it's a case of people ignoring the warning of hurricanes, the wind's picking up and saying "let's ignore them, we've had enough of weathermen" or even more dangerous simply "they aren't saying what we want so ignore them".

So I wonder why experts, not just economists, are creating warnings. Why are the government hiding reports as already mentioned?


----------



## Elles

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/final-reports-in-review-of-eu-balance-of-competences-published

So he's talking about a report published under the coalition government that pointed out areas the Eu needed reform.
In efforts to prove how bad the current government are. Not a Tory voter then.

We've already been told dozens of times that nurses are leaving in droves and won't be replaced, because it's too expensive to train now.

The government are going to give us the nursey equivalent of PCSOs. Nurses who can train on the job and not need degrees. To do tasks that need less expertise than required in icu or at the operating tables for example.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> So he's talking about a report published under the coalition government that pointed out areas the Eu needed reform.


No, he pointed that one out as being published. Since then there are 50ish which have not been despite the taxpayer paying for them. Why aren't the public actually being informed? Wasn't the goal of Brexit for many was to take back control? How can you take control without being informed and simply being told what to do and think from the UK government?


----------



## Elles

We have other MPs to hold them to account and tell us what's going on. What's this control thing anyway? I can just about control my bladder from here. I can't control the government, or the Eu, or anyone else. All I can do is vote for someone who most closely represents my ideals and hope they get in. Same as most of the public.

You want the analyses made public so that remainers can use what they can find in them that might persuade leavers to change their mind? Probably a good plan, I don't think remainers have found anything so far.

The guy in the video says that the earlier report wasn't publicised enough, because it says that the Eu is wonderful. He also says that the coalition government released the science part at the time of the floods, when important reports weren't supposed to be released. Maybe the government didn't think the science part was important.

I say read the summary of the reports and make your own mind up.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> What's this control thing anyway? I can just about control my bladder from here. I can't control the government, or the Eu, or anyone else. All I can do is vote for someone who most closely represents my ideals and hope they get in. Same as most of the public.


But isn't it all about taking back control? If you "can't control the government, or the Eu, or anyone else", then what's the point?


----------



## Elles

I can't control the government, I can join with other voters and hope to get representation and that if whoever gets in misbehave too badly they get voted out. Nothing I vote for ever wins anyway, but then I don't always want them to.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> You want the analyses made public so that remainers can use what they can find in them that might persuade leavers to change their mind? Probably a good plan, I don't think remainers have found anything so far.


So you don't want to be informed of the problems, preferring running around with your eyes closed. Remainers have clearly explained in detail what is to lose to gain nothing tangible.



> The guy in the video says that the earlier report wasn't publicised enough, because it says that the Eu is wonderful. He also says that the coalition government released the science part at the time of the floods, when important reports weren't supposed to be released. Maybe the government didn't think the science part was important.


Why was bad news released immediately after the 9/11 attack? It's called hiding it. Who gave the government the rights to decide what information is important or not?



> I say read the summary of the reports and make your own mind up.


Unless we see the summaries and conclusions pretty hard to do. They need to be released for that.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I can't control the government, I can join with other voters and hope to get representation and that if whoever gets in misbehave too badly they get voted out. Nothing I vote for ever wins anyway, but then I don't always want them to.


Presumably you're referring to Westminster, but the same applies to the EU Parliament where our elected MEPs sit, doesn't it?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Presumably you're referring to Westminster, but the same applies to the EU Parliament where our elected MEPs sit, doesn't it?


Not really. I can't vote for French or German MEPs or political parties and alliances and vice versa. Probably the reason Farage didn't bother to turn up when PR gave him a spot, was because he knew his political alliance and bias would leave him out in the cold. But also probably why Jeremy was coming round to the idea of the Eu and joining with other European socialist parties. His ambitions being for a socialist Britain and Europe maybe.

Still, the commission are solely responsible in some areas and Britain didn't seem interested in elections for MEPs, or taking on board the Euro, so we'll probably all be better out in the end. Europe and Britain.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Unless we see the summaries and conclusions pretty hard to do. They need to be released for that.


I was talking about the earlier reports, with the final publication in 2014. Are they really praising the Eu and saying how wonderful it is?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Not really. I can't vote for French or German MEPs or political parties and alliances and vice versa. Probably the reason Farage didn't bother to turn up when PR gave him a spot, was because he knew his political alliance and bias would leave him out in the cold. But also probably why Jeremy was coming round to the idea of the Eu and joining with other European socialist parties. His ambitions being for a socialist Britain and Europe maybe.
> 
> Still, the commission are solely responsible in some areas and Britain didn't seem interested in elections for MEPs, or taking on board the Euro, so we'll probably all be better out in the end. Europe and Britain.


Hmm. I can't vote for MPs from Yorkshire or Birmingham.

The political groups in the European Parliament are pretty much the same as our parties, in that our MEPs align themselves with one or another, or try to go it alone. These blocks issue manifestos, just like ours do. Here's the EPP manifesto from 2014

http://www.epp.eu/papers/epp-elections-manifesto-2014/

The Tories usedto be members of the EPP until Cameron took them out to ensure his victory in the leadership race.

So, just like here; read the manifestos, vote for the MEP candidate aligned to the group whose manifesto you prefer.

What's the difference?

Actually, there is a difference for me, because I live in a staunch Tory seat so my UK GE vote counts for absolutely nothing. It's wasted. My vote for the MEP on the other hand will count, just as much as every other vote. I wonder which system is more democratic?


----------



## Elles

I expected that. The answer about voting for Birmingham, or yorkshire. It's not really the same, although PR might be better. If overall a number of people vote for different parties based on different issues, if a government want to stay in power, they tend to take notice and will make adjustments. MEPs don't have a say on every issue, even individual countries don't. Far from taking individual country members' concerns into account, they have the power to fine them, or exclude them and have control over their currency, with the Euro

I don't think there's anything to persuade leave voters to change their mind. Eggs and pork from Europe. The problems in Poland, Hungary, Greece and Italy. The perceived strength of Germany. All of these things are likely to make people even more determined, not less.

I'm not a soothsayer, but I wouldn't be surprised if a second referendum was a resounding success on the side of leave if it was held now. Even more than last time. I think they're holding off, not because they're afraid Remain will win, but because they're afraid that at the moment, it wouldn't.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I expected that. The answer about voting for Birmingham, or yorkshire. It's not really the same, although PR might be better. If overall a number of people vote for different parties based on different issues, if a government want to stay in power, they tend to take notice and will make adjustments. MEPs don't have a say on every issue, even individual countries don't. Far from taking individual country members' concerns into account, they have the power to fine them, or exclude them and have control over their currency, with the Euro
> 
> I don't think there's anything to persuade leave voters to change their mind. Eggs and pork from Europe. The problems in Poland, Hungary, Greece and Italy. The perceived strength of Germany. All of these things are likely to make people even more determined, not less.
> 
> I'm not a soothsayer, but I wouldn't be surprised if a second referendum was a resounding success on the side of leave if it was held now. Even more than last time. I think they're holding off, not because they're afraid Remain will win, but because they're afraid that at the moment, it wouldn't.


I'm not sure why it's not really the same. We all vote in our own constituency, whether for MPs or MEPs. If no-one votes for, say, Tory candidates, they don't get in, so they have to avoid upsetting the electorate. If no-one votes for EPP MEPs then they don't get in and have to bear that in mind in Parliament.

Not trying to change your mind; just wondering if there is a factual misunderstanding on my part regarding the democracies of the UK and the EU.

In pursuit of which; on what issues do MEPs have no say? And individual countries? Do they have something like the UK government's secondary legislation or statutory instruments (they're the things that the Tories are planning to use to change EU rules in the UK without having to go through the Westminster Parliament).


----------



## Elles

I'm mainly looking for leave voters who have changed their mind and would now vote Remain, or at least want what Lib Dems have suggested. There would have to be some at these marches and demonstrations, to make a second referendum a reasonable request. I've looked quite hard, but I can't find any, let alone the percentage that would swing it.

How the Eu and its MEPs works is complicated and there are hundreds if not thousands of articles and reports. It's something people should have researched to some degree before they voted Imo. Regardless of Remain or leave and certainly if they want to have any hope of changing the minds of others.

Maybe this kind of thing:

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-policy-areas/in-what-areas-can-the-eu-legislate.html

Links on the European Commission webpages say that MEPs don't have a say in everything, but the link from that to try to find out exactly where they have no say and the EC has total control, just leads to dozens more links that would take ages to go through. I'm not a fan of linking newspaper reports that simplify or exaggerate tbh. There's plenty of those.  It's not easy to get to, which is one of the problems ofc. and then some of where MEPs have no say is because countries voted not to I think.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I'm mainly looking for leave voters who have changed their mind and would now vote Remain, or at least want what Lib Dems have suggested. There would have to be some at these marches and demonstrations, to make a second referendum a reasonable request. I've looked quite hard, but I can't find any, let alone the percentage that would swing it.
> 
> How the Eu and its MEPs works is complicated and there are hundreds if not thousands of articles and reports. It's something people should have researched to some degree before they voted Imo. Regardless of Remain or leave and certainly if they want to have any hope of changing the minds of others.
> 
> Maybe this kind of thing:
> 
> http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-policy-areas/in-what-areas-can-the-eu-legislate.html
> 
> Links on the European Commission webpages say that MEPs don't have a say in everything, but the link from that to try to find out exactly where they have no say and the EC has total control, just leads to dozens more links that would take ages to go through. I'm not a fan of linking newspaper reports that simplify or exaggerate tbh. There's plenty of those.  It's not easy to get to, which is one of the problems ofc. and then some of where MEPs have no say is because countries voted not to I think.


Interesting. I might have a deeper look, but it certainly sounds like it might be similar to secondary legislation that bypasses Parliament in the UK.

I don't think many people will have changed their minds yet, but it will be interesting to see how they feel when the negotiations start to indicate the way things are going to go. I suspect many people just wanted 'Brussels' to butt out, and for immigration to fall, but not actually to change anything else, so when they find out what the consequences really are, they might not be so happy.

One thing (I've said it before) is that there should certainly be a referendum on the proposed solution. There is no defensible reason to deny 'the people' a vote on the outcome having trusted them to answer the original question. That is simply a denial of the democracy that the leavers are currently lauding so enthusiastically.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41027671


----------



## Happy Paws2

Brexit, it gets worse by the day!


----------



## Arnie83

We have confirmed that we will not be subject to 'direct jurisdiction' by the ECJ.

Can anybody think of even the slightest positive difference that the average woman or man in the street will notice?


----------



## Elles

Negatives would be more important to list.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Negatives would be more important to list.


Holding the government to account for a start. Obvious example is the case where a UK environmental group took the UK government to court over pollution levels. The result, national courts in Europe are able to order governments to produce plans which achieve NO2 limits in a period of time as "short as possible". The UK Supreme court interprets what the time frame should be for the UK. Interesting considering plans for new heathrow runway and how the government is determined to leave the ECJ despite EU pollution levels already being broken around heathrow.

Of course you can avoid the jurisdiction of the ECJ, but you have got to comply with EU standards if you are going to export into the EU which means someone must interpret those standards. So tell me what does not complying to EU standards mean to manufacturers wanting to export? What does it mean when there are disagreements?

You also have the thing where UK judges are currently on the ECJ. That would obviously go losing yet another voice.

So nothing direct but plenty which affects people in the long term.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Negatives would be more important to list.


It means that regardless of any other negotiating concessions and all the pretty pleases in the world we still aren't going to get anything like the same access to the single market or customs union that we currently enjoy.

Business will suffer, costs / prices will rise, jobs will not be as plentiful, upward pressure on wages will not be as high as otherwise, GDP growth will be lower - perhaps permanently in trajectory terms - and the living standards of the next generation will not be as high as they would otherwise have been.

Other changes may compensate for some of that, (don't get too excited about the phantom 'global' free trade deals) but in isolation they are the effects. Not scaremongering - no point anyway, it's done - but just economics.

But, hey, no foreign judges! Woohoo!


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41027671
> View attachment 322473
> View attachment 322474


In the end she had to hire a laywyer, and so far pay almost 4000£ to defend her case. Apparently she has put an x into a wrong box, but no one could tell what is the right box to tick for her, as she just didn´t fit in into any group. The funny thing is that Finns pay her salary, so she only pays taxes for UK. Wouldn´t that make her an ideal immigrant?

Now she could afford the bill and had the background to know how to hire a laywyer, but what about those with less money? How many people will get the same letter and are forced to leave their family and work just because of Brexit? And how reliable is British goverment at the moment? Would you move to Britain, even when you have all the skills and degrees Britain wants? Would you start a business in Britain, which depends on highly trained international staff? And does any of this matter to British people or do they understand how much Britain could actually end up losing just because EU people and companies don´t trust British government?


----------



## shadowmare

MrsZee said:


> In the end she had to hire a laywyer, and so far pay almost 4000£ to defend her case. Apparently she has put an x into a wrong box, but no one could tell what is the right box to tick for her, as she just didn´t fit in into any group. The funny thing is that Finns pay her salary, so she only pays taxes for UK.
> 
> Now she could afford the bill and had the background to know how to hire a laywyer, but what about those with less money? How many people will get the same letter and are forced to leave their family and work just because of Brexit? And how reliable is British goverment at the moment? Would you move to Britain, even when you have all the skills and degrees Britain wants? Would you start a business in Britain, which depends on highly trained international staff? And does any of this matter to British people or do they understand how much Britain could actually end up losing just because EU people and companies don´t trust British government?


No one cares...
Which is why tonight I am celebrating getting a job offer and starting planing my move to Germany next year  a part of me is sad that it has come to this, but a much bigger part is looking forward to the new start. Maybe, me and Axel will come back to an independent Scotland in a few years haha!


----------



## Rudydog

KittenKong said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41027671
> View attachment 322473
> View attachment 322474


This whole business is very unnerving.... no one seems to care how or why those letters were written in the first place  socking!!!


----------



## Rudydog

shadowmare said:


> No one cares...
> Which is why tonight I am celebrating getting a job offer and starting planing my move to Germany next year  a part of me is sad that it has come to this, but a much bigger part is looking forward to the new start. Maybe, me and Axel will come back to an independent Scotland in a few years haha!


Congrats on the new job! If I didn't have so much at stake in the uk I would be doing exactly the same!


----------



## Elles

The government phoned to apologise and sent out another letter telling people it was a mistake. She had the university and Caroline Lucas helping her. Why did it cost her £4000 in the couple of working days between getting the letter and being told the letters were sent out by mistake?

I wonder if you've got the right case @MrsZee ?


----------



## Elles

shadowmare said:


> No one cares...
> Which is why tonight I am celebrating getting a job offer and starting planing my move to Germany next year  a part of me is sad that it has come to this, but a much bigger part is looking forward to the new start. Maybe, me and Axel will come back to an independent Scotland in a few years haha!


Congratulations. 

We're hoping to move out of the uk too. My second son is moving out later this year and then the only family member left here will be my daughter if we go. I don't know why anyone stays here if they have an alternative.


----------



## Rudydog

Elles said:


> The government phoned to apologise and sent out another letter telling people it was a mistake. She had the university and Caroline Lucas helping her. Why did it cost her £4000 in the couple of working days between getting the letter and being told the letters were sent out by mistake?
> 
> I wonder if you've got the right case @MrsZee ?


I think (but it is just a guess) that her legal costs were not related to the letter sent but to the fact that her original residency application was originally refused on the ground that: "University of Helsinki [is] not located in the UK, therefore you are not employed in the UK".

Unfortunately many applications are being rejected through such incompetence....

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...or-letters-threatening-to-deport-eu-nationals


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> The government phoned to apologise and sent out another letter telling people it was a mistake. She had the university and Caroline Lucas helping her. Why did it cost her £4000 in the couple of working days between getting the letter and being told the letters were sent out by mistake?
> 
> I wonder if you've got the right case @MrsZee ?





Rudydog said:


> I think (but it is just a guess) that her legal costs were not related to the letter sent but to the fact that her original residency application was originally refused on the ground that: "University of Helsinki [is] not located in the UK, therefore you are not employed in the UK".
> 
> Unfortunately many applications are being rejected through such incompetence....
> 
> Source: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/23/home-office-apologises-for-letters-threatening-to-deport-eu-nationals


True, Rudydog, thanks for more information. Johannd said accoding to our papers that she just has to know whether she can come back to UK, when she goes for a Holiday etc. That is why she needs her case to checked again and that is what she is paying for the lawyer to do.


----------



## Rudydog

MrsZee said:


> True, Rudydog, thanks for more information. Johannd said accoding to our papers that she just has to know whether she can come back to UK, when she goes for a Holiday etc. That is why she needs her case to checked again and that is what she is paying for the lawyer to do.


It really is so worrying for so many people and we haven't even got to the stage where we have mass applications yet. God only knows how many lives they will manage to wreck then... it makes me really anxious


----------



## Elles

Ah ok, thank you. Probably best to get assistance with the form filling before it's sent off to make sure there are no mistakes on it.

I thought you meant she'd spent 4K over the letter. Government departments make mistakes sometimes. Fortunately it was only 100 letters and not every Eu citizen got one, or it'd be bedlam.


----------



## Rudydog

She did not make a mistake though... the form asks for details of your employer and she is employed and paid by the Helsinki university (but works in the UK for them)

Not everyone has the funds to get legal help to fill in an 85 (or similar) pages form sadly.

Sorry but there is really nothing fortunate about this whole business imo. Can you imagine the horror when your entire life is being thrown upside mown like this? I am absolutely dreading having to go through the application process myself...

Edited to add: apologies, I didn't mean to sound quite so sharp there. It's obviously an emotive topic for me


----------



## Arnie83

shadowmare said:


> *No one cares...*
> Which is why tonight I am celebrating getting a job offer and starting planing my move to Germany next year  a part of me is sad that it has come to this, but a much bigger part is looking forward to the new start. Maybe, me and Axel will come back to an independent Scotland in a few years haha!


Some of us really do care, but sadly now there is nothing we can do.

I hope you enjoy life in Germany; and I'm sure you will.


----------



## kimthecat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41053684
Nearly 30,000 EU nationals applied to become British citizens in the 12 months after last summer's Brexit vote - almost double the number of the previous year.

Home Office statistics show 28,502 such applications between July 2016 and June 2017, up 80% from 15,871 in 2015-16.

The total number of applications, from all nationalities, fell by 8%.

The rise comes as ONS figures showed a fall in net migration - partly due to a rise in EU nationals leaving the UK.


----------



## Goblin

No shock EU nationals leaving the UK. Those with permanent residency officially have been told that they will have to apply for new permanent residency, complete with costs due to Brexit. Now to me, having permanent residency means your can stay, not you can stay unless the government changes something on a whim.


----------



## Rudydog

Goblin said:


> No shock EU nationals leaving the UK. Those with permanent residency officially have been told that they will have to apply for new permanent residency, complete with costs due to Brexit. Now to me, having permanent residency means your can stay, not you can stay unless the government changes something on a whim.


Quite! It really beggars belief that they think this is an acceptable proposal. And let's not forget that the 'special' status they will award those that are successful could also be withdrawn at any point when the government du jour feel like it. Vile!


----------



## Elles

Like I said, I don't know why anyone wants to come here anyway, but the government should get on with it and let people know where they stand. They're the ones who'll have to deal with all the paperwork, so I think it would be cheaper and quicker for the uk to come up with a unilateral solution, as a minimum. It doesn't need the Eu to agree a reciprocal agreement immediately. Then I suppose uk citizens living in the Eu and also facing uncertainty wouldn't be happy with that. 

Don't forget this is what people knew would happen when they voted Brexit. They want controls on immigration. It's not personal. France's Macron wants more controls too from what I can see.


----------



## Rudydog

Elles said:


> Like I said, I don't know why anyone wants to come here anyway, but the government should get on with it and let people know where they stand. They're the ones who'll have to deal with all the paperwork, so I think it would be cheaper and quicker for the uk to come up with a unilateral solution, as a minimum. It doesn't need the Eu to agree a reciprocal agreement immediately. Then I suppose uk citizens living in the Eu and also facing uncertainty wouldn't be happy with that.
> 
> Don't forget this is what people knew would happen when they voted Brexit. They want controls on immigration. It's not personal. France's Macron wants more controls too from what I can see.


The EU has already made a very fair proposal to UK citizens living in Europe. I just do not understand why we can't reciprocate it. It really should be quite simple.

Whilst I appreciate the want to reduce immigration (though I don't personally agree this is needed but that's a matter for another discussion as this should have no bearings on those already here) it feels very personal indeed when you are affected and sadly those most affected didn't get a vote in the mater.

I agree with you about why would anyone want to come here now but for those of us that are already here things are not that simple - I came here 18 years ago aged 19 in good faith that I could build my life here. My partner of 11 years is English, I own property here and run my own business. Walking away is not an option for me right now unless I am prepared to give up everything I love and have worked hard for.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> I don't know why anyone stays here if they have an alternative.


Because it's a wonderful free country................


----------



## Arnie83

........ just not very welcoming.


----------



## Guest

shadowmare said:


> No one cares...
> Which is why tonight I am celebrating getting a job offer and starting planing my move to Germany next year  a part of me is sad that it has come to this, but a much bigger part is looking forward to the new start. Maybe, me and Axel will come back to an independent Scotland in a few years haha!


Viel Glück! Whereabouts in Germany you are moving?


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> Because it's a wonderful free country................


I can hear the sarcasm. 

In comparison to war torn Syria it's a slight improvement. Considering refugees can choose somewhere else though, they're bonkers hiding on trucks to get here.

It's becoming more of an overcrowded, PC jobsworth infested, concrete covered dump by the minute. No one one comes here for the food, the culture, the open spaces and the friendly natives. If they do, they're in for a shock.

@Rudydog One of the sticking points is that the offer restricts uk citizens to the individual country they're living in. So someone currently living in France for example, wouldn't be able to pop over into Belgium to work in the Belgium branch of their company. As I understand it. The uk want this clarified.

Also the Eu want Eu citizens to have more rights than is currently offered to British citizens concerning family members living outside of the Eu. A Brit wouldn't easily be able to bring a foreign wife, or children here, but an Eu citizen would be able to.

They do seem to be getting closer to agreement on the technicalities of it, they now have only a couple of points to iron out and then the biggie. Britain doesn't want the ECJ to have full control over it. They want a compromise, or an independent to arbitrate. The Eu say no.

So it probably depends on the bias of the newspaper we read as to what might or might not be happening. I think we have to wait until we can read reports from the actual parties involved.

It's clear either way that Eu nationals living and working in the uk will have the right to apply for uk residency after a minimum of five years and British citizenship after 6. They will have to reapply for residency after Brexit, but will have a few years to do it and the Uk government say they will simplify the process for Eu nationals. You can sign up for emails telling you what's happening.

At the moment it's a complicated and expensive process to gain citizenship, let's hope it is simplified after Brexit as promised, or it really will be a mess.

I don't think the Eu is totally innocent in all this, though it wasn't the Eu who caused Brexit of course. My son is moving to Spain, to live in his (Gib resident) brother's Spanish house with his German partner, whilst continuing to operate his British business remotely and through monthly visits to the uk factory. So obviously I'm not unsympathetic, or unaffected.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> I can hear the sarcasm.


There is no sarcasm from me and for those that think this country isn't a wonderful free place, maybe it would be best if they went elsewhere or stopped talking this country down


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> There is no sarcasm from me and for those that think this country isn't a wonderful free place, maybe it would be best if they went elsewhere or stopped talking this country down


I think it was. It's becoming a lot less so imo. Especially over the past 3 years. If I was a foreign national I couldn't see any point in moving here, other than for work. What advantages are there, over other European countries?


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> There is no sarcasm from me and for those that think this country isn't a wonderful free place, *maybe it would be best if they went elsewhere* or stopped talking this country down


Believe me if I was younger and fitter nothing would keep here. There is no future here, I'm glad, I'm towards the end of my life, I dread the future for the young ones.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> There is no sarcasm from me and for those that think this country isn't a wonderful free place, maybe it would be best if they went elsewhere or stopped talking this country down


There's no need to talk this country down; its actions are putting the message across loud and clear.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Don't forget this is what people knew would happen when they voted Brexit. They want controls on immigration. It's not personal. France's Macron wants more controls too from what I can see.


They ignored the fact the government had plenty of options within the EU with the ECJ backing the implementation and limitations of free movement. The government simply didn't bother enforcing those rules unlike other EU countries. Let's face the simple fact.. no EU country such as France or Germany would want immigration simply to sponge off the state. The idea that people voted to have controls on immigration is a falsehood. The UK had controls, simply never used them.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> I think it was. It's becoming a lot less so imo. Especially over the past 3 years. If I was a foreign national I couldn't see any point in moving here, other than for work. What advantages are there, over other European countries?


The South Africans don't agree with you. Those that can are moving here in their droves.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> It's becoming more of an overcrowded, PC jobsworth infested, concrete covered dump by the minute. No one one comes here for the food, the culture, the open spaces and the friendly natives. If they do, they're in for a shock.


What a jaundice view you have! 
The whole world is overcrowded and being concreted over and PC ness is rife in many Western countries .
We're a tiny island so we're bound to be crowded , we have beautiful national parks and scenery , I guess food and culture depends on what your preferences are .


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> What a jaundice view you have!
> The whole world is overcrowded and being concreted over and PC ness is rife in many Western countries .
> We're a tiny island so we're bound to be crowded , we have beautiful national parks and scenery , I guess food and culture depends on what your preferences are .


We're absolutely drowning in culture; you really don't need to look far. From the stunning buildings, to stage shows, galleries, festivals etc.

And despite the jokes about British food being boring, we have some of the most exciting restaurants in the world here. Part of my job is to book restaurants for my clients when they're travelling. I would say that the Americans are the most difficult to book for in London, as they're pretty much meat and two veg in their preference, and the majority of restaurants here are just a bit too "interesting" for their liking. Thank God for steak restaurants or I'd be stuffed


----------



## Guest

If filling the about 80 page long application to apply for a permit to stay, with numerous attachments, knowing that any mistake will lead to rejection, doesn´t appeal to you, there is always EU.


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> for those that think this country isn't a wonderful free place, it would be best if they went elsewhere.


I don't and I did.

I jumped that ship long before the sea caught fire.￼￼


----------



## Rudydog

Elles said:


> the Eu want Eu citizens to have more rights than is currently offered to British


I agree that it wouldn't be right for us to have more rights that uk citizens, but equally it wouldn't be right for us to loose rights we currently have which is the offer that is currently on the table.



Elles said:


> It's clear either way that Eu nationals living and working in the uk will have the right to apply for uk residency after a minimum of five years and British citizenship after 6. They will have to reapply for residency after Brexit, but will have a few years to do it and the Uk government say they will simplify the process for Eu nationals. You can sign up for emails telling you what's happening.


This is what bugs me to be honest and time will tell how easy they make it for us to get residency rights. The current application process has many issues as we have seen and i think it would be scandalous for us to all have to go through such a difficult process when frankly we should be given automatic right to remain imo



Elles said:


> I'm not unsympathetic, or unaffected.


Apologies if i said anything which gave the impression that I thought otherwise that really wasn't my intention


----------



## Elles

Yeah and chewing gum all over the pavements, broken glass and fly tipping in beauty spots, poo bag trees, terrorists and knife crime, acid attacks, fire hazard buildings, services stretched to the limit, bin men and train drivers on strike, we're ruining it. :Arghh

The 80+ page document is for British citizenship isn't it? The government have said not to apply now, as they intend to make it easier for Eu citizens, when it'll be something like £60 to get an ID card and no paperwork other than something like a passport or an electricity bill needed other than in unusual cases, as they'll go on tax, NI and employment records. It'll take them a few years to process it all, so Eu citizens already living and working here will be given the automatic right to remain. That's the plan I read.


----------



## Rudydog

Elles said:


> The 80+ page document is for British citizenship isn't it?


No that's the current form for residency. Citizenship also involves a test and a pretty hefty fee (£1k I think but don't quote me on that), citizenship is not something I have ever looked into yet....


----------



## Elles

Yep it's over £1600 I think. The government have promised to do away with it for Eu citizens already here, no English test either. They're saying they will simplify it in relation to the Eu and Brexit. I presume before Brexit no Eu citizen had the need to apply for residency unless they wanted citizenship for some reason, so it was designed for people outside of the Eu?


----------



## Rudydog

Elles said:


> Yep it's over £1600 I think. The government have promised to do away with it for Eu citizens already here, no English test either. They're saying they will simplify it in relation to the Eu and Brexit. I presume before Brexit no Eu citizen had the need to apply for residency unless they wanted citizenship for some reason, so it was designed for people outside of the Eu?


Yes exactly we have not needed to apply for residency thus far. I really hope they are true to their word and make it easy for us.


----------



## Elles

I hope so too. It is what they're saying. They're saying for people not to apply yet, but to sign up for the email notifications as the system will be simplified. I can understand that people might not trust them though.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> There is no sarcasm from me and for those that think this country isn't a wonderful free place, maybe it would be best if they went elsewhere or stopped talking this country down


That's easier said than done though isn't it. Most of us have jobs and commitments and cannot live on fresh air, in other words can't afford to quit our jobs to move to another country.

Unless rights are guaranteed for UK citizens in the EU I would consider that utter madness at the moment anyway which would never have been the case had it not been for the stupid referendum or if fortunate to be entitled to an EU passport which UK citizens will lose come 2019 (except in NI where citizens are entitled to a ROI Passport).

As for taking the country down I think it's done perfectly well taking itself down with the bunch of delusional clowns in charge.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Most of us have jobs and commitments and cannot live on fresh air, in other words can't afford to quit our jobs to move to another country.


But according to you and the other doom mongers, there won't be any jobs, so best get out now while you can, you'll be totally stuck in 18 months according to soothsayer predictions



KittenKong said:


> Unless rights are guaranteed for UK citizens in the EU


There are hundreds of other places in the world you know the EU isn't the world?
Try 
Afghanistan
Bangladesh 
Cambodia
Ethiopia
Gambia
Malawi 
Syria

well any of the African counties are at your finger tips, how about living in Russia maybe?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> But according to you and the other doom mongers, there won't be any jobs, so best get out now while you can, you'll be totally stuck in 18 months according to soothsayer predictions


I've never quite understood this hyperbolic exaggeration of the economic probabilities of Brexit.

There will be fewer jobs than there otherwise would be. There will be lower economic growth than there would otherwise be. Wages will be lower than they otherwise would be.

All these things - employment, the economy, wages - will rise, but by not as much. Brexit will damage the next generation's future; it won't trash it.


----------



## Arnie83

At last, and inevitably, some common sense

*Brexit: Keep single market for transition period - Labour*

*http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41064314*

As some of us have been saying for a long time, there's no time to negotiate a brand new arrangement just for transition, and the one the Tories want is ridiculous anyway:

The same benefits as the single market, but no free movement please.

The same benefits as the customs union, but we are free to negotiate new trade deals, please.

No ECJ jurisdiction in the the UK; we'll agree on, design and implement new bodies to deal with all the rules and disputes - all in the next 9 months.

Oh, and an invisible border in Ireland: you can trust us not to break your rules and we'll trust you not to just walk into the UK.

What do we give you in return? Well, zip, but we're Britain; don't you understand that?

It was all rubbish, and all because they were afraid of further splitting the party, regardless of how sensible it was for the country.

We need three years minimum to negotiate and prepare for leaving smoothly and this is the only way of doing it.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> .


That's a point.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> .


 I get your point


----------



## Arnie83

A Guy Verhofstadt tweet from a few hours ago ...

W/*@MichelBarnier* to prepare *#Brexit* negotiations.*#Citizensrights*,Ireland& financial settlement are priorities before talks about the future











Reported in the Express - and it was this specific tweet they referred to later in the piece - the headline becomes:

*YOU MUST PAY! EU's Brexit negotiator Verhofstadt THREATENS UK over divorce bill*

I wonder why they are still stirring up anti-EU feelings among their readership, such as it is.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Happy Paws2

Oh boy, things are just getting worse, the government has no idea what they are doing, they are playing Russian Roulette with the countries future.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Yeah and chewing gum all over the pavements, broken glass and fly tipping in beauty spots, poo bag trees, terrorists and knife crime, acid attacks, fire hazard buildings, services stretched to the limit, bin men and train drivers on strike, we're ruining it. :Arghh
> .


 So whats new , They've always been a problem and not just this country .


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I wonder why they are still stirring up anti-EU feelings among their readership, such as it is.[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]


Of course they are. It's very clear what's happening. The UK will crash out with no deal with the EU being blamed.


----------



## Elles

Well after Brexit, Europeans will have 27 countries to choose from, we'll have one. Our one isn't any better than their 27, so look on bright side, the European glass is more than half full, the UK's is nearly empty and leaking. :Hilarious

People who live and work in the Uk now, will still be welcome to live and work in the Uk tomorrow. If the government are true to their word, they can make things very much easier for Eu citizens to stay in the uk than it currently is for none Eu citizens. The negotiators need to get on with it.

Europe is fine, it's the Eu that's all about the money. When they won't ban chemicals, because of money and they won't let a little port ban live transport, because of money, we know which side their crackers are buttered with caviar on top.

If we are out of the Eu and get a decent government maybe the Uk can be more proactive on welfare and environmental issues. Not if we stay in the single market though. Animals will still continue to suffer in cattle trucks travelling hundreds, if not thousands of miles, because to the Eu they are just a commodity. Goods. Free movement of goods. 

http://www.breastcanceruk.org.uk/ne...f-banned-toxic-chemical-in-recycled-plastics/

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/live-animal-transport/live-exports-from-the-eu/

On both of the linked issues the commission overruled MEPs. Of course when we're no longer in the Eu we still have the WTO to battle and if we keep the single market, we will still have to comply with Eu rules and nothing will change anyway. Despite all the predicted doom, I still believe little will be any different than it would be if we'd stayed in really. The current government, despite all their bluster, don't want it to be.


----------



## shadowmare

MrsZee said:


> Viel Glück! Whereabouts in Germany you are moving?


Haha thanks! Moving to Leipzig :Happy really happy about it as my best friend who I studied my Honours with, has been living there for a few years now so it will be easy to learn about the place in a short time rather than spend ages finding my way around!


----------



## kimthecat

@shadowmare That's sounds lovely. Good luck with the move.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> If the government are true to their word, they can make things very much easier for Eu citizens to stay in the uk than it currently is for none Eu citizens. The negotiators need to get on with it.


Well what example can you provide examples of "true to their word" when it comes to brexit? This government is saying one thing and doing the opposite. It's all about spin to the UK population, not actual negotiating.



> Europe is fine, it's the Eu that's all about the money. When they won't ban chemicals, because of money and they won't let a little port ban live transport, because of money, we know which side their crackers are buttered with caviar on top.


https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-aim-block-full-eu-ban-bee-harming-pesticides

Enough said.



> If we are out of the Eu and get a decent government maybe the Uk can be more proactive on welfare and environmental issues.


Maybe if the UK had been more proactive on welfare and environmental issues within the EU but they weren't. Trying to pretend things are going to be better without any evidence to back it up. That's why almost all animal welfare societies and groups were either neutral or for staying in the EU. Only a small minority supported leaving and those due mostly to single topics.



> Of course when we're no longer in the Eu we still have the WTO to battle and if we keep the single market, we will still have to comply with Eu rules and nothing will change anyway. Despite all the predicted doom, I still believe little will be any different than it would be if we'd stayed in really. The current government, despite all their bluster, don't want it to be.


Can and will are totally different. UK government is influenced by lobbyists just as much, if not more than the EU. You keep saying nothing will change.. yes it will, people in the UK are gaining nothing yet losing many advantages.


----------



## Guest

shadowmare said:


> Haha thanks! Moving to Leipzig :Happy really happy about it as my best friend who I studied my Honours with, has been living there for a few years now so it will be easy to learn about the place in a short time rather than spend ages finding my way around!


Leipzig ist schön, you will have a great time!


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


>


"Entirely" is a very subjective word in the understanding of most people.

It also wasn't on the ballot paper. Nor was any definition of what 'Leave' meant, so I'm afraid the quote above is factually incorrect.


----------



## kimthecat

So what is everybody's definition of leave ? 

The Dictionary says Leave -
verb (used with object), left, leaving.
1.
to go out of or away from, as a place:
to leave the house.
2.
to depart from permanently; quit:
to leave a job.
3.
to let remain or have remaining behind after going, disappearing, ceasing, etc.:
I left my wallet home. The wound left a scar.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> So what is everybody's definition of leave ?
> 
> The Dictionary says Leave -
> verb (used with object), left, leaving.
> 1.
> to go out of or away from, as a place:
> to leave the house.
> 2.
> to depart from permanently; quit:
> to leave a job.
> 3.
> to let remain or have remaining behind after going, disappearing, ceasing, etc.:
> I left my wallet home. The wound left a scar.


Heres what the charlatans said about leaving the single market prior to the referendum.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> "Entirely" is a very subjective word in the understanding of most people.
> 
> It also wasn't on the ballot paper. Nor was any definition of what 'Leave' meant, so I'm afraid the quote above is factually incorrect.


It would have been good to have a bit more definition , eg soft and hard .

perhaps they should have had a separate referendum for that .


----------



## shadowmare

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...d-raised-in-britain-told-to-leave-home-office

It's like UK just decided: feck it. We can't come out of this looking like we have made a smart, well calculated move, so we'll just entertain the world with more stupidity every day and hope that it will distract people from noticing that we have no clue what we're doing. 
Britain for British people!!!!.... except, who do we count as British?


----------



## kimthecat

@shadowmare  Crazy !

In the article it says his problem is because the law was changed in 2006 when Tony blair was PM , (i think) so perhaps not due to brexit .


----------



## Elles

He's a Brit born in the uk to a dual national mother, what has it got to do with Brexit? He probably should have questioned it when his passport application was refused, instead of applying for an Australian one. The ECHR which has nothing to do with the Eu will apply to uk and European citizens.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Heres what the charlatans said about leaving the single market prior to the referendum.


Yeah, it's funny how many hard Brexiteers are worshippers of Margaret Thatcher. I wonder what they would think of her if she was still around and campaigning (Brextremists would argue sabotaging), against Brexit?


----------



## Elles

Many Remainers worship Jeremy Corbyn and he spent his life wanting to leave. Who knows what Margaret Thatcher would have thought of the current Eu. If Maggie was leader of the conservatives she would have probably done a far, far better job than Cameron of persuading people to remain if that's what she thought was best and we wouldn't be Brexiting.


----------



## Elles

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11598879

Hmm, I think the leave vote might have been even greater than it was.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Lol. :Hilarious

You'd think the Kremlin had more important things to worry about than whether Britain stayed in the Eu or not. Like getting Trump to do their bidding.


----------



## Happy Paws2

shadowmare said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...d-raised-in-britain-told-to-leave-home-office
> 
> It's like UK just decided: feck it. We can't come out of this looking like we have made a smart, well calculated move, so we'll just entertain the world with more stupidity every day and hope that it will distract people from noticing that we have no clue what we're doing.


I know crazy isn't it. we are becoming a laughing stock of Europe, if the government think they are going to get all the cherries they are living in cloud cuckoo land, the way they are going, all they'll get are the cherry stones.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Lol. :Hilarious
> 
> You'd think the Kremlin had more important things to worry about than whether Britain stayed in the Eu or not. Like getting Trump to do their bidding.


I'm not going to get too excited by it, but anything that creates cracks between European countries - which Brexit most certainly does, not least by design of the Leavers - the better for Russia.


----------



## Elles

We're not the laughing stock of Europe. Some Europeans would like to leave the Eu too. Some are sad we're leaving and concerned about what will happen with the Eu now that a major contributor is leaving. Many Europeans living in the uk are worried about it. They aren't laughing. People think we should have stayed in because someone might laugh or make jokes about it if we left? Of course Brexit and the Eu are material for comics and cartoonists. They make light (and money) of serious situations, it doesn't make the uk a laughing stock.

Kim Jong Un is a laughing stock. Until he fires missiles across Japan. Trump is a laughing stock, until he backs the KKK and sneers at climate change. The uk leaving the Eu is nothing in comparison to what people like Trump, Assad, Putin and Kim Jong Un are up to. If you read European newspapers Brexit is barely mentioned tbh.

Here's some thoughts from Europeans, garnered by the Guardian collective.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/25/nice-idea-but-europeans-on-what-went-wrong-eu


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Lol. :Hilarious
> 
> You'd think the Kremlin had more important things to worry about than whether Britain stayed in the Eu or not. Like getting Trump to do their bidding.


Really? The Kremlin will be _very _interested in anything that will weaken both the EU and the UK, gives them more power. And we're all a lot closer than the USA...


----------



## Elles

Russia has its elections next year. It would be more concerned with getting us out of the ECHR than the Eu probably. At the moment the conservatives and May are not planning on withdrawing from the ECHR.


----------



## kimthecat

If only Mrs Thatcher were here now , she'd sort out those pesky Russians . As good old Kenny Everett said Lets bomb Russia !


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Russia has its elections next year. It would be more concerned with getting us out of the ECHR than the Eu probably. At the moment the conservatives and May are not planning on withdrawing from the ECHR.


More concerned, maybe. But that doesn't mean they are _un_concerned about the UK leaving the EU, and how to turn it to their maximum advantage. Russia doesn't leave anything to chance, and will try and exploit any potential area it can. History tells us that.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> We're not the laughing stock of Europe. Some Europeans would like to leave the Eu too. Some are sad we're leaving and concerned about what will happen with the Eu now that a major contributor is leaving. Many Europeans living in the uk are worried about it. They aren't laughing. *People think we should have stayed in because someone might laugh or make jokes about it if we left?* Of course Brexit and the Eu are material for comics and cartoonists. They make light (and money) of serious situations, it doesn't make the uk a laughing stock.


We shouldn't stay in the EU because people would laugh at us for leaving. We should stay because leaving is a ridiculous idea.

Most of the comments I've seen are that ordinary people in the EU can't understand why we want to leave.

The Irish Taoiseach, when asked if Ireland might leave the EU said "We may be mad, but we're not _that_ mad!"



Elles said:


> Here's some thoughts from Europeans, garnered by the Guardian collective.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/25/nice-idea-but-europeans-on-what-went-wrong-eu


As the piece says right at the start, the thoughts are specifically from people "with doubts about the EU"; Eurosceptics if you like. There will be many comments with opposing views, though anyone who claims that the EU is perfect is going to be in a very small minority.


----------



## noushka05

Well its come to something when even Trumps administration thinks Boris Johnson is a joke

http://uk.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-administration-think-boris-johnson-is-a-joke-2017-8

*Trump officials don't want to work with Boris Johnson 'because they think he's a joke'*

And this is absolutely damning in the Times. Little wonder we've been reduced to a global laughing stock by the incompetent, self serving bunch of clowns in government.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Well its come to something when even Trumps administration thinks Boris Johnson is a joke


Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11598879
> 
> Hmm, I think the leave vote might have been even greater than it was.


That woman had more brains, astuteness, integrity and balls than all the current politicians put together


----------



## KittenKong

Now. May vows to lead the Tories into the next General Election in 2022, insisting on a friendly relations with the EU when in truth the relations are becoming more hostile by the minute. Whichever side you're on has she achieved anything since triggering Article 50?

I think they need to re-programme the Maybot.....


----------



## samuelsmiles

Barnier and his team are being utterly obstructive in the talks. Well, they will be won't they - why would they want the UK to be a success outside of the EU? They wouldn't be pleased with that at all.


----------



## kimthecat

Love the description of Barnier in the DM today ! 

*The Britain-hating Gallic popinjay with an ego the size of an EU butter mountain trying to derail Brexit: ANDREW PIERCE on EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier*

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...-negotiator-Michel-Barnier.html#ixzz4rK8cS3C7
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Barnier and his team are being utterly obstructive in the talks. Well, they will be won't they - why would they want the UK to be a success outside of the EU? They wouldn't be pleased with that at all.


If the UK becomes a disaster due to Brexit it won't be the EU's fault as they'd no longer be part of it!

Do you honestly believe Theresa May will make a "success" out of it?!

If I supported an EU exit I certainly wouldn't.


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> Barnier and his team are being utterly obstructive in the talks. Well, they will be won't they - why would they want the UK to be a success outside of the EU? They wouldn't be pleased with that at all.


What you mean... the EU are not simply rolling over but sticking to what was stated at the start and sticking to what was stated before the referendum rather than what people like David Davis have said will happen.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Love the description of Barnier in the DM today !
> 
> *The Britain-hating Gallic popinjay with an ego the size of an EU butter mountain trying to derail Brexit: ANDREW PIERCE on EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier*
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...-negotiator-Michel-Barnier.html#ixzz4rK8cS3C7
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Their modus operandi has always been to launch ad hominem attacks in lieu of rational or logical discussion. Hopefully no-one takes any notice of them any more.


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> Barnier and his team are being utterly obstructive in the talks. Well, they will be won't they - why would they want the UK to be a success outside of the EU? They wouldn't be pleased with that at all.


Utterly obstructive in what way, exactly?

Since Article 50 is solely concerned with a country leaving the EU, that is what we should be talking about isn't it? The relevant parts of that are Citizens' rights. the settling of accounts with respect to commitments already made, and dealing with the UK / EU land border that the UK has made inevitable, doesn't want, and has no workable plans for.


----------



## Happy Paws2

samuelsmiles said:


> Barnier and his team are being utterly obstructive in the talks. Well, they will be won't they - why would they want the UK to be a success outside of the EU? They wouldn't be pleased with that at all.


I don't think it's got anything to do with them, our team haven't got a clue what they want, so how do you expect them to react to us. We are just acting like a bunch of kids throwing out toys out of the pram.

We have become a BL**DY laughing stock around the world.


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles said:


> Barnier and his team are being utterly obstructive in the talks. Well, they will be won't they - why would they want the UK to be a success outside of the EU? They wouldn't be pleased with that at all.


If by 'utterly obstructive' you mean 'insisting on sticking to the order and areas of negotiation they said must be dealt with first if Article 50 was trigged, as required by the formal process' then sure, they are being obstructive.

So perhaps our negotiation team (such as they are) could knuckle under and actually deal with the necessary stuff first, rather than wittering on about how unfair it is the EU won't had them their wishlist on a silver platter... It's not like they weren't warned that wouldn't be the case!


----------



## samuelsmiles

kimthecat said:


> Love the description of Barnier in the DM today !
> 
> *The Britain-hating Gallic popinjay with an ego the size of an EU butter mountain trying to derail Brexit: ANDREW PIERCE on EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier*
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...-negotiator-Michel-Barnier.html#ixzz4rK8cS3C7
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Haha - 'popinjay.' Thank you, that will keep me amused all day. :Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Their modus operandi has always been to launch ad hominem attacks in lieu of rational or logical discussion. Hopefully no-one takes any notice of them any more.


They'll deny it of course but it's clear some have.


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> Their modus operandi has always been to launch ad hominem attacks in lieu of rational or logical discussion. Hopefully no-one takes any notice of them any more.


Trouble is the UK government is doing the same rather than actually informing the UK public about what is going to happen and what to realistically expect.


----------



## Elles

Are you Remainers really posting Daily Mail articles and arguing over what they say? :Wideyed


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Their modus operandi has always been to launch ad hominem attacks in lieu of rational or logical discussion. Hopefully no-one takes any notice of them any more.


 Absolutely


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Are you Remainers really posting Daily Mail articles and arguing over what they say? :Wideyed


I voted Leave and I buy the DM ( and the other DM ) sometimes but you have to admit the title was a bit OTT . Just a tad !


----------



## KittenKong

Wouldn't it be funny if they joined?!









https://europaunited.eu/2017/01/14/iceland-in-the-eu-yes-please/


----------



## rona

A country with the population of a smallish town here and who went almost bankrupt just a few years ago!!!

Not sure they should be allowed in anyway!!!

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/new-report-iceland-aborts-100-of-babies-with-down-syndrome


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> I voted Leave and I buy the DM ( and the other DM ) sometimes but you have to admit the title was a bit OTT . Just a tad !


Lol, put the cat amongst the pigeons there.  I wasn't paying attention, just saw a bunch of people discussing the Mail on petforums. :Hilarious The reason the mail is so popular, imo, isn't its unbiased, intelligent reporting, or its reliance on the word 'hilarious', but the fact that it's free. It's the equivalent of reading the back of cereal packets, or loo cleaner.


----------



## Elles

Iceland jailed their bankers. They did a damned good job over it imo. A lot better than we did.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Not sure they should be allowed in anyway!!!


Well didn't you vote to be unable to be heard within the EU.


----------



## Elles

I wonder what the Eu will do about the horses if Iceland join.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Iceland jailed their bankers. They did a damned good job over it imo. A lot better than we did.


 and so they should . our council lost millions 

Look how much councils lost.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/oct/10/localgovernment-iceland



samuelsmiles said:


> Haha - 'popinjay.' Thank you, that will keep me amused all day. :Hilarious:Hilarious


 :Hilarious I love it. I don't know what period it from . The Elizabethan insults are funny . Another series of Upstart Crow with David Mitchell is back and Im looking forward to watching it .


----------



## Arnie83

Interesting to see that Iceland are sufficiently confident in their national identity that they are quite happy to become part of a much greater project.


----------



## kimthecat

The British man told to leave the country has received an apology for blunder.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-41101051


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> and so they should . our council lost millions
> 
> Look how much councils lost.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/oct/10/localgovernment-iceland
> 
> :Hilarious I love it. I don't know what period it from . The Elizabethan insults are funny . Another series of Upstart Crow with David Mitchell is back and Im looking forward to watching it .


Probably why Iceland are trying again now we're leaving. They won't have to pay us any money back if we're not in the Eu and will have Eu backing against us if necessary regarding fisheries.


----------



## kimthecat

@Elles I dont think they had to pay us back . It looks like a European Court ruled against it . 
The Icelanders had a referendum and voted against paying us back or something ! flipping referendums !

http://citywire.co.uk/money/uk-loses-out-as-iceland-escapes-icesave-repayment/a654467

The European Free Trade Association (EFTA) court has ruled that Iceland did not break any rules by refusing to compensate foreign savers when Icesave's parent bank Landsbanki collapsed in 2008.

Thousands of Brits had placed money with Icesave, which offered interest rates far above those offered by British banks. When Landsbanki collapsed the British government bailed out the 230,000 UK savers, compensating them fully at a cost of around £3.5 billion. The debt owed to the UK is around £2.3 billion.

The government did not have to bail out savers completely. At the time the Icelandic scheme was responsible for the first £16,300 of compensation and then that was topped up to £50,000 by the UK's Financial Services Compensation Scheme.

The Dutch government also compensated all of its depositors in the scheme, as the UK and Dutch governments tried to prevent a run on the banks.

At first the Icelandic government agreed to repay the Dutch and UK governments but this led to an outcry from Icelandic citizens and a referendum on the deal in March 2010 overwhelmingly rejected repayment. A second referendum in April 2011 again vetoed repayment.

In court the Icelandic government argued that Landsbanki had already paid out 90% of the maximum compensation it had to pay under European law and would continue with payments.

The court ruling will stop the UK government's attempts to retrieve all of the money it spent compensating savers from the Icelandic government.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Lol. :Hilarious
> 
> You'd think the Kremlin had more important things to worry about than whether Britain stayed in the Eu or not. Like getting Trump to do their bidding.


Kremlim has financed LePen, Farage and Trump, and the results was two out of three, so they basically got what they wanted (=Brexit) and Trump. Weak EU and weak US are very good for Russia, and Britain will not have much to say about anything, as you will have to make all the trade deals you get and not be too picky about the terms. No wonder Putin is so happy now, he played his cards really well.



Elles said:


> We're not the laughing stock of Europe. Some Europeans would like to leave the Eu too. Some are sad we're leaving and concerned about what will happen with the Eu now that a major contributor is leaving. Many Europeans living in the uk are worried about it. They aren't laughing. People think we should have stayed in because someone might laugh or make jokes about it if we left? Of course Brexit and the Eu are material for comics and cartoonists. They make light (and money) of serious situations, it doesn't make the uk a laughing stock.
> 
> Kim Jong Un is a laughing stock. Until he fires missiles across Japan. Trump is a laughing stock, until he backs the KKK and sneers at climate change. The uk leaving the Eu is nothing in comparison to what people like Trump, Assad, Putin and Kim Jong Un are up to. If you read European newspapers Brexit is barely mentioned tbh.
> u


Since when UK had to be compared with people like Trump, Assad, Putin and Kim Jong Un to look good, you have been great in so many ways before, and now this? You can and should do so much better!

British people are not the laughing stock, but this government and Brexit is. You voted something you have no idea what it meant and accepted that that is all right actually. You were lied about it and think that it is all right. Had you made the decision based on facts and proper plans, the story would be different, but this way it is just sad, as it is always the little people who will suffer, when the rich and powerful play about.



rona said:


> A country with the population of a smallish town here and who went almost bankrupt just a few years ago!!!
> Not sure they should be allowed in anyway!!!


They recovered well and are doing pretty good for themselves. We would welcome them immediately, naturally. And I bet they think now that a lesson is learned and EU will be beneficial for them. They learned it in a hard way.


----------



## noushka05

*:Hilarious

Larry the Cat*‏@*Number10cat* Aug 30

_Japanese PM wondering why Theresa May just downed the finger washing bowl








_


----------



## kimthecat

MrsZee said:


> They recovered well and are doing pretty good for themselves. We would welcome them immediately, naturally. And I bet they think now that a lesson is learned and EU will be beneficial for them. They learned it in a hard way.


perhaps they recovered because they didn't pay back the millions they lost . 
Still, at least they didn't get billions of euro bail outs like Greece etc

Phoney Bliar meeting Junkers on the news tonight . :Vomit couldn't watch !


----------



## Catharinem

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious I love it. I don't know what period it from . The Elizabethan insults are funny .


Shakespear insult duel


----------



## kimthecat

@Catharinem :Hilarious That told him , didn't it ! 
A perfect description of Tony Blair too.


----------



## KittenKong

Hmmm..... Not something I've heard on UKTV news. How on earth can they "control immigration" if those pesky EU citizens are allowed to cross the border unchecked into British territory? I wonder what the DUP would have to say about that?!

What a farce.....


----------



## shadowmare

MrsZee said:


> Kremlim has financed LePen, Farage and Trump, and the results was two out of three, so they basically got what they wanted (=Brexit) and Trump. Weak EU and weak US are very good for Russia, and Britain will not have much to say about anything, as you will have to make all the trade deals you get and not be too picky about the terms. No wonder Putin is so happy now, he played his cards really well.
> 
> Since when UK had to be compared with people like Trump, Assad, Putin and Kim Jong Un to look good, you have been great in so many ways before, and now this? You can and should do so much better!
> 
> British people are not the laughing stock, but this government and Brexit is. You voted something you have no idea what it meant and accepted that that is all right actually. You were lied about it and think that it is all right. Had you made the decision based on facts and proper plans, the story would be different, but this way it is just sad, as it is always the little people who will suffer, when the rich and powerful play about.


Exactly. I don't think people on mainland Europe are laughing about Brexit. There's nothing to laugh about really - it's sad. Most of them don't care about how UK voted because no one cares. It won't have much effect on them as (even though it seems hard to believe for some) UK is just one of many many countries in the world. UK leaving EU to most people is just as relevant to outsiders as Catalonia gaining independence would be. It's an interesting event but really - has no relevance to people's everyday lives.
What is laughable though is how this whole "They need us more than we need them" is turning out. It is now more than a year since oh so Great Britain voted to leave, yet there has been no actual progress. NOTHING is more clear than it was last summer. Article 50 has been triggered in March and since then, what progress has your PM or any of the humpty dumpties this country has elected done? The home office keeps fecking up people's lives which thank god is becoming more publicised - the current PM was the Home Secretary previously for gods sake! Every time she makes a speach it's the same sound bites and slogans. "Brexit is Brexit" "Brexit will be blue, white and red" "Strong and stable"... she just paid a massive amount of money just to keep her majority. Let that sink in - your PM paid out a group of people so she could have a say on things. Your politicians constantly make each other look dumb by contradicting each other to the point you have to wonder if they've been drugged by the opposing party in order to make them look incompetent. This country supposedly wanted to get out of EU for over a decade now, yet they still have no fecking plan. Every week you can bet £100 that there will be a new interview from Davis or Fox or some other master mind, who will announce that the negotiations are going well and progressing, and then the other one will moan about how the mean bully EU is getting in the way of success. Currently UK is coming off as a country that put their fate in the hands of incompetent bags of potatoes. All the while chanting "Make Britain great again" "Britain for British" "We don't want no non elected EU beurocrats". And at the same time, the actual country is splitting into parts.
Thank god now I'm one of the people who is finding it all funny too and can sit back and watch it from the sidelines. It is much better to live when my life is no longer in the hands of English politicians. It's like a dark comedy really... or one of those horror movies where you keep shouting at the screen "where are you going? No! Don't go into that dark cave! Why the f would you do that?!"


----------



## Rudydog

shadowmare said:


> Exactly. I don't think people on mainland Europe are laughing about Brexit. There's nothing to laugh about really - it's sad. Most of them don't care about how UK voted because no one cares. It won't have much effect on them as (even though it seems hard to believe for some) UK is just one of many many countries in the world. UK leaving EU to most people is just as relevant to outsiders as Catalonia gaining independence would be. It's an interesting event but really - has no relevance to people's everyday lives.
> What is laughable though is how this whole "They need us more than we need them" is turning out. It is now more than a year since oh so Great Britain voted to leave, yet there has been no actual progress. NOTHING is more clear than it was last summer. Article 50 has been triggered in March and since then, what progress has your PM or any of the humpty dumpties this country has elected done? The home office keeps fecking up people's lives which thank god is becoming more publicised - the current PM was the Home Secretary previously for gods sake! Every time she makes a speach it's the same sound bites and slogans. "Brexit is Brexit" "Brexit will be blue, white and red" "Strong and stable"... she just paid a massive amount of money just to keep her majority. Let that sink in - your PM paid out a group of people so she could have a say on things. Your politicians constantly make each other look dumb by contradicting each other to the point you have to wonder if they've been drugged by the opposing party in order to make them look incompetent. This country supposedly wanted to get out of EU for over a decade now, yet they still have no fecking plan. Every week you can bet £100 that there will be a new interview from Davis or Fox or some other master mind, who will announce that the negotiations are going well and progressing, and then the other one will moan about how the mean bully EU is getting in the way of success. Currently UK is coming off as a country that put their fate in the hands of incompetent bags of potatoes. All the while chanting "Make Britain great again" "Britain for British" "We don't want no non elected EU beurocrats".
> Thank god now I'm one of the people who is finding it all funny too and can sit back and watch it from the sidelines. It is much better to live when my life is no longer in the hands of English politicians.


If I could have liked this twice I would have! My sentiments exactly!

They (the governement) got what they wanted so it is high time they came up with some concreate plans to get on with it and put people out of their misery. I'd rather know what we are dealing with than this ever lasting limbo (lala) land.


----------



## shadowmare

Rudydog said:


> If I could have liked this twice I would have! My sentiments exactly!
> 
> They (the governement) got what they wanted so it is high time they came up with some concreate plans to get on with it and put people out of their misery. I'd rather know what we are dealing with than this ever lasting limbo (lala) land.


Honestly, I've seen projects prepared and presented by groups of pupils with additional support needs, better than this negotiations team... I don't know where they got their education, but as far as I understand, resolving to accusations and name calling is not a great option during the negotiations process. Fox came out with "blackmail" now. Ffs... I cannot understand how anyone who voted for leave can actually still believe anything good will come out of this.


----------



## Rudydog

shadowmare said:


> Honestly, I've seen projects prepared and presented by groups of pupils with additional support needs, better than this negotiations team... I don't know where they got their education, but as far as I understand, resolving to accusations and name calling is not a great option during the negotiations process. Fox came out with "blackmail" now. Ffs... I cannot u deratand how anyone who voted for leave can actually still believe anything good will come out of this.


It really beggers belief doesn't it? I don't understand how they can be so ill prepared and yet so bloody arrogant about the whole thing. As they say you really couldn't make this sh*t up!!

Oh and I can vouch for the fact that no one in France at least gives two hoots about what happens to the UK (except for the family of those in the UK so personally affected). The joke really is on us and no one is laughing...


----------



## KittenKong

If there's any truth in this it makes a mockery for both Brexiteers and Remainers.

While this may be most welcome by remainers the privileges of EU membership will be restricted to Northern Ireland only. As it stands NI citizens are entitled to ROI/EU passports while others in the UK will be losing theirs regardless of how they voted and will not be eligible for EU ones except in special circumstances, eg a spouse not of UK origin.

On the other hand in the mind of a Brexiteer this makes a mockery of the pledge to re-instate the borders and keeping non UK citizens out unchecked. I would be asking if foreigners are allowed into UK territory unchecked what would stop them entering mainland Britain?


----------



## shadowmare

Rudydog said:


> It really beggers belief doesn't it? I don't understand how they can be so ill prepared and yet so bloody arrogant about the whole thing. As they say you really couldn't make this sh*t up!!
> 
> Oh and I can vouch for the fact that no one in France at least gives two hoots about what happens to the UK (except for the family of those in the UK so personally affected). The joke really is on us and no one is laughing...


Same in the countries I visited back in July... though my Dutch friend was saying that there are talks in Netherlands that they will most likely be asking people with dual citizenship to choose either Dutch or British.


----------



## Rudydog

shadowmare said:


> there are talks in Netherlands that they will most likely be asking people with dual citizenship to choose either Dutch or British.


Jeez what a dilemma for those people. Does the Netherlands only allow dual citizenship within the EU then?


----------



## Rudydog

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 323497
> 
> If there's any truth in this it makes a mockery for both Brexiteers and Remainers.
> 
> While this may be most welcome by remainers the privileges of EU membership will be restricted to Northern Ireland only. As it stands NI citizens are entitled to ROI/EU passports while others in the UK will be losing theirs regardless of how they voted and will not be eligible for EU ones except in special circumstances, eg a spouse not of UK origin.
> 
> On the other hand in the mind of a Brexiteer this makes a mockery of the pledge to re-instate the borders and keeping non UK citizens out unchecked. I would be asking if foreigners are allowed into UK territory unchecked what would stop them entering mainland Britain?


So basically free movement of people.... Bhahahaha!


----------



## kimthecat

Rudydog said:


> Jeez what a dilemma for those people. Does the Netherlands only allow dual citizenship within the EU then?


That's a shame . Why would they want to make them choose?


----------



## shadowmare

Rudydog said:


> Jeez what a dilemma for those people. Does the Netherlands only allow dual citizenship within the EU then?


No, they simply are very strict with dual nationality - the same as Lithuania. So if I was to stay in UK and take British passport, I would have to give up my Lithuanian nationality. The same will be for Dutch people wanting to continue to live in UK and take the citizenship.


----------



## shadowmare

kimthecat said:


> That's a shame . Why would they want to make them choose?


Because not all countries allow multiple nationalities like UK and common wealth countries.


----------



## Rudydog

shadowmare said:


> No, they simply are very strict with dual nationality - the same as Lithuania. So if I was to stay in UK and take British passport, I would have to give up my Lithuanian nationality. The same will be for Dutch people wanting to continue to live in UK and take the citizenship.


Thanks that makes sense. So dual citizenship is not allowed currently and the choice would come for those who want to apply for UK citizenship in order to secure their position in the uk - at first I thought you meant that some Dutch people who currently had dual citizenship would have to choose post Brexit.


----------



## kimthecat

@shadowmare oh I see. Thanks .


----------



## KittenKong

shadowmare said:


> Because not all countries allow multiple nationalities like UK and common wealth countries.


I thought that was blatantly obvious. Come March 2019 it looks like previously welcome working EU citizens may become "Illegal" overnight if they haven't secured or not eligible for UK citizenship.

Likewise UK ex-pats will lose their rights as EU citizens to live and work within the EU if they haven't secured citizenship of the EU country they reside in.

Of course they'll be exceptions such as NI citizens being eligible for ROI passports and the likes of Farage (thanks to his wife being German), who did well in persuading 17million into sacrificing their EU citizenship, expecting the 16+million who didn't to embrace that.

No, we bloody well won't and never will!


----------



## shadowmare

Rudydog said:


> Thanks that makes sense. So dual citizenship is not allowed currently and the choice would come for those who want to apply for UK citizenship in order to secure their position in the uk - at first I thought you meant that some Dutch people who currently had dual citizenship would have to choose post Brexit.


I don't think there would be many Dutch holding UK passport at the moment even if they were allowed to have dual citizenship - why would you need that when you can live and work happily in EU without giving up your nationality? That is the nice part - being able to just point at a country on a map, move there, work and live for 5 years and automatically get the status of a resident. And continue living there without having to forever give up nationality of the country you were born and raised in and may want to go back in 5 or 10 or 40 years. 
Brits living in the Netherlands at the moment will have to decide what to do in a couple of years too. They will have to give up their brittish passports or move back to Great Britain.


----------



## Rudydog

shadowmare said:


> I don't think there would be many Dutch holding UK passport at the moment even if they were allowed to have dual citizenship - why would you need that when you can live and work happily in EU without giving up your nationality? That is the nice part - being able to just point at a country on a map, move there, work and live for 5 years and automatically get the status of a resident. And continue living there without having to forever give up nationality of the country you were born and raised in and may want to go back in 5 or 10 or 40 years.
> Brits living in the Netherlands at the moment will have to decide what to do in a couple of years too. They will have to give up their brittish passports or move back to Great Britain.


Quite. And sorry I didn't mean to sound so dismissive of the situation was just clarifying my understanding. After 18 years in the UK I still hold my French passport even thought France allows dual citizenship....

Although what we are being told is that we will get perm residency effectively (settled status) without the need to apply for citizenship. Now whether that is worth the paper it is written on is a different matter all together....


----------



## shadowmare

Oh the irony! :Hilarious I imagine some poor English lad handing out leaflets on the streets on mainland shouting "Would you like to come to live and work in UK? At least for a year? Because we have no way of guaranteeing anything? You might have a great pay. You might enjoy some benefits of working in U.K... you might get a letter telling you to pack your bags and leave..." https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/31/nhs-spend-100m-bringing-in-3000-gps-abroad-england


----------



## shadowmare

Rudydog said:


> Quite. And sorry I didn't mean to sound so dismissive of the situation was just clarifying my understanding. After 18 years in the UK I still hold my French passport even thought France allows dual citizenship....
> 
> Although what we are being told is that we will get perm residency effectively (settled status) without the need to apply for citizenship. Now whether that is worth the paper it is written on is a different matter all together....


I do wonder how much this residency application will cost... considering that currently I can live here without having to apply for anything, but due to the vote of others I'd have to pay for something I didn't want. I hope everyone will have to pay for new passports. Can you imagine how many applications home office will have to deal with?? They will need to employ all the people who are currently on benefits to deal with the backlog! 
A few years back Lithuania introduced new passports and ID cards. All the passports expired around the same time and the passport office was so heavy with work that my parents had to wait 3-4 months for theirs...


----------



## samuelsmiles

Reassuring news for retired UK citizens living in the EU. 
_"negotiators have agreed to maintain reciprocal healthcare for British and EU retirees affected by Brexit"_
*Brexit healthcare deal is 'good news for pensioners' *


----------



## Elles

Around £60 and a copy of an electricity bill and passport or driving licence, something like that. They will then use employment and tax records and fast track it. They've already said they plan on allowing 3 years after Brexit for people to apply.


----------



## Rudydog

shadowmare said:


> I do wonder how much this residency application will cost... considering that currently I can live here without having to apply for anything, but due to the vote of others I'd have to pay for something I didn't want. I hope everyone will have to pay for new passports. Can you imagine how many applications home office will have to deal with?? They will need to employ all the people who are currently on benefits to deal with the backlog!
> A few years back Lithuania introduced new passports and ID cards. All the passports expired around the same time and the passport office was so heavy with work that my parents had to wait 3-4 months for theirs...


Oh I know! There are so many things that worry me about this 'proposal' (if you can call it that): cost, feasibility and length of implementation, likely f*ck ups from the home office (wrecking people's lives in the process), minimum requirements to be ellegible, people's ability to prove eligibility.... the list goes on. Frankly it is an insult to even have to 'apply'. In my mind it should be a simple registration process with all being approved from that point without having to jump through hoops, but we're not going to get that I don't think


----------



## Arnie83

I wish they'd let me choose a nationality!


----------



## shadowmare

Elles said:


> Around £60 and a copy of an electricity bill and passport or driving licence, something like that. They will then use employment and tax records and fast track it. They've already said they plan on allowing 3 years after Brexit for people to apply.


I heard of that. Has this actually been confirmed though? Or is someone going to turn around in 4 months and announce that there's a 40 page long application to fill in?


----------



## Elles

Probably depends on what happens with the negotiations. Until the divorce bill is sorted out, it seems it can go no further and the Eu haven't agreed yet to uk citizens living and working in the Eu getting the same thing for Europe.

I watched the press meeting on tv and it seems they're all as bad as each other and it's all money. The Eu don't want to discuss anything much until the divorce bill is sorted, but they want Britain to make an offer. 

The latest rumour is that Britain may offer to continue paying in as though they haven't left until the end of the 7 year financial term, which should cover their current obligation to the Eu. Then maybe they can get on with other business. I doubt the Eu will accept it though, they'll want a pay off on top and more to cover larger projects they've invested in long term I expect.


----------



## Rudydog

Elles said:


> Eu haven't agreed yet to uk citizens living and working in the Eu getting the same thing for Europe.


As far as I am aware the EU has already made a proposal that all rights of all EU citizens (so I ncluding uk citizens living in EU) should be protected for life. It is the UK that is not willing to reciprocate this deal.


----------



## Elles

What I read is that uk citizens will get the right to remain in the country they're living in, not Europe. Britain wants it to mean Europe. The Eu want Eu citizens' rights in Britain to be covered by the ECJ. Britain wants something else and says no country outside of the Eu allow the ECJ final say.


----------



## shadowmare

Elles said:


> What I read is that *uk citizens will get the right to remain in the country they're living in, not Europe. Britain wants it to mean Europe*. The Eu want Eu citizens' rights in Britain to be covered by the ECJ. Britain wants something else and says no country outside of the Eu allow the ECJ final say.


In other words UK wants its nationals to keep the right to free movement within EU after Brexit...... after UK decided to leave EU to get rid of free movement, they want their nationals to be able to freely move around EU in case they decide that after 10 years in Spain they want to move to Italy for 6 years.... anyone sees the issue here?... anyone??.... *awkward silence from the UK negptiating team*
Meanwhile British offer for me is that I can stay here, but I cannot move to EU for a few years and then freely come back again.


----------



## Rudydog

Elles said:


> What I read is that uk citizens will get the right to remain in the country they're living in, not Europe. Britain wants it to mean Europe. The Eu want Eu citizens' rights in Britain to be covered by the ECJ. Britain wants something else and says no country outside of the Eu allow the ECJ final say.


Maintaining current EU rights for life would mean the ability to live anywhere in the EU. This is what the EU have proposed as far as I know (unless I have missed something, not impossible lol). This however is definitely not what is being proposed by the UK to EU citizans living here.

The ECJ debate is about who will oversee and enforce what ever gets agreed post brexit. These are 2 separate things though obviously are being played against one and another and conflated in the negotiations.


----------



## Elles

So the Eu want it to be permanent without applying for citizenship, but the uk want it to be temporary, i.e. if you live outside the uk for 2 years or more, the right to remain will be rescinded and you'd lose your settled status. The uk want the same for Brits living in Europe. So if they leave their country of choice in Europe for longer than 2 years, they will no longer have the right to live there either.

Some work to do yet then.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Reassuring news for retired UK citizens living in the EU.
> _"negotiators have agreed to maintain reciprocal healthcare for British and EU retirees affected by Brexit"_
> *Brexit healthcare deal is 'good news for pensioners' *


You call that a positive? What about the rest who are currently entitled to EHIC but are likely to lose it come March 2019?


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> You call that a positive? What about the rest who are currently entitled to EHIC but are likely to lose it come March 2019?


Tourists can just buy health insurance though. Who cares?


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Tourists can just buy health insurance though. *Who cares?*


The less well off, perhaps?


----------



## samuelsmiles

Arnie83 said:


> The less well off, perhaps?


Why would anyone traveling abroad _not_ take out private insurance. I'm not well off but, when I traveled to Africa some years ago, I was pleased I did when I got Malaria and ended up in intensive care for a couple of weeks. The hospital fees were into thousands of pounds - the insurance about twenty.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles said:


> Why would anyone traveling abroad _not_ take out private insurance. I'm not well off but, when I traveled to Africa some years ago, I was pleased I did when I got Malaria and ended up in intensive care for a couple of weeks. The hospital fees were into thousands of pounds - the insurance about twenty.


Africa is not in the EU but is interesting the EHIC did cover some countries outside the EEA area which co-incidentally ended in 2016.

It's more for those who take day trips to France etc. which may become as complicated as flying to the U.S. for a week!


----------



## shadowmare

KittenKong said:


> Africa is not in the EU but is interesting the EHIC did cover some countries outside the EEA area which co-incidentally ended in 2016.
> 
> It's more for those who take day trips to France etc. which may become as complicated as flying to the U.S. for a week!


My friends are planning a wedding in a couple of years and were thinking of doing it in Italy. But I don't think they will as the guy's grandparents are unable to afford the travel insurance. My friend thinks they might be able to talk them into accepting the pair to pay for them, but probably pride will get in the way. So they will probably think of more UK options...


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles said:


> Why would anyone traveling abroad _not_ take out private insurance. I'm not well off but, when I traveled to Africa some years ago, I was pleased I did when I got Malaria and ended up in intensive care for a couple of weeks. The hospital fees were into thousands of pounds - the insurance about twenty.


Because the EHIC allows you to get free or reduced cost treatment. Health insurance may be necessary in addition, but without the EHIC it would be more expensive.

It only covers the EU countries, not Africa, but that's pretty much the point. We leave, we pay more. Those who care - as per Satori's query to which I was responding - would be those who can least afford the extra cost.


----------



## KittenKong

Perhaps someone ought to tell Maybot "The Sun" letters page does not represent the majority of the UK population!


----------



## MiffyMoo

shadowmare said:


> My friends are planning a wedding in a couple of years and were thinking of doing it in Italy. But I don't think they will as the guy's grandparents are unable to afford the travel insurance. My friend thinks they might be able to talk them into accepting the pair to pay for them, but probably pride will get in the way. So they will probably think of more UK options...


Travel insurance for an elderly couple for a two week holiday is between £30-£40. Now I know that's a lot for some, but if you're able to afford to pay to go abroad, then you should surely be able to afford that.

Personally, I would never dream of going anywhere without insurance, so factor that into my budget. What do people who don't have insurance do if, say for example, their possessions are lost or stolen, or you can't go or have to return early? It's a false economy not to take it out


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Travel insurance for an elderly couple for a two week holiday is between £30-£40. Now I know that's a lot for some, but if you're able to afford to pay to go abroad, then you should surely be able to afford that.
> 
> Personally, I would never dream of going anywhere without insurance, so factor that into my budget. What do people who don't have insurance do if, say for example, their possessions are lost or stolen, or you can't go or have to return early? It's a false economy not to take it out


I don't think anyone is suggesting that there is no need to have insurance.

The point is, simply, that insurance will be more expensive when we leave the EU and have no access to free health care. Add to that the extra costs incurred by the falling pound against the euro and there will be people who can no longer afford the holiday abroad that they were, perhaps, planning.

It won't stop most people, especially those who can respond to the rising costs with a 'Who cares?', as above. But for those at the poorer end of the scale, it will matter. As will so many of the other effects of Brexit which can be ignored by the likes of, say, rich Tory MPs.


----------



## Elles

More jobs in the insurance sector.


----------



## Guest

This is what wein EU think of Brexit negotiations: A summary of an article in Helsingin Sanomat (1.9.2017), which describes pretty much what people think. What you think this actually means for British people and companies? Can you find anything good will come out of Brexit for you ?

1) EU and Brits don´t agree on what has been achieved: EU thinks bugger all, it has been a huge disappointment, whereas Davis said, we got some progress.
2) Only someprogress was made concerning Ireland. No progress about how Britains leaves, how much you pay to get out of the deals you signed, no progress about what the EU citizens rights after Brexit nor, who will be looking after EU citizens legal rights (EU thinks EU courts whereas British think British courts will deal with EU citizens right in Britain),
3) This means that the negotiations will not proceed to discuss about trade deals, which means more insecurity for British companies.
4) British also changed their minds about things they had some agreement (British will be payng their commitments till end the contracts 2020)
5) EU says we need much more clarity and concrete suggestions about EU citizens rights, so that we can assure our people that they will still have protection and rights to live in Britain, which cannot change everytime a goverment changes. That just is not good enough.

The idea seems to be that Britains wants those rights it already had when it was part of EU. Now Britain is in chaos, and the negotiators try anything, like have tried to make separate deals with Germany and France. For them it is just a matter of trying to cut losses down, and no one is even thinking of benefits Britain will have once our of EU
There is no secret plan, which EU hoped Britain would have had, ust quarreling politicians, who try to say something positive about Brexit.

The summary was that if this were poker, EU has a 27 card flush and Britain just a queen as the highest card.


----------



## Elles

Factually that's no different from what they're saying here. The talks can't progress to trade until they've agreed a divorce settlement. The Eu want enough that Britain leaving makes no difference to them and Eu countries dont pay any more. Britain only want to pay what they are legally obliged to. What the Eu want is currently being looked at by legal eagles to see if we're obligated, they aren't just going to pay it because the Eu want it.

The Eu have 27 countries behind it, all backing them in getting as much money as possible out of us. Britain has the money. It depends how much they want our money as to how many cards they're holding. So the analogy isn't quite true. The Eu is all about the money. We don't want money from the Eu, they want it from us. 

If it were a chess game the queen is the strongest piece.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that there is no need to have insurance.
> 
> The point is, simply, that insurance will be more expensive when we leave the EU and have no access to free health care. Add to that the extra costs incurred by the falling pound against the euro and there will be people who can no longer afford the holiday abroad that they were, perhaps, planning.
> 
> It won't stop most people, especially those who can respond to the rising costs with a 'Who cares?', as above. But for those at the poorer end of the scale, it will matter. As will so many of the other effects of Brexit which can be ignored by the likes of, say, rich Tory MPs.


Has it been confirmed that insurance costs will definitely increase?

We also cannot assume what the exchange rate will be in a couple of years' time. We have absolutely no idea what could happen in the EU that may affect the Euro, or any other multitude factors that could affect the value of the £ vs. any other currency


----------



## Elles

I think it's a given insurance costs will increase, they always do lol. Though I suppose if more healthy people are taking it out and there's more competition, maybe it'll go down. Oh look, a pig with wings.

If the Eu want to make it difficult for Brits to go on holiday in Europe, that's their prerogative. It'll probably be up to our government whether the NHS pay for our care in Europe or not and how it'll work. Many Europeans have to have health insurance, why should we be any different. They can get insurance to come here on holiday and we can get insurance to go there. Many already have to pay towards health care they receive in Britain. Both sides could make it an obligation. 

My sister got married in the Seychelles. No one could afford to go, so no one did. She, her new husband and their 7 children then came here to celebrate separately, before going back to their home in Australia. Nothing to stop your friends getting married in Italy and having a second, small ceremony in the uk for family if they want, or alternatively, getting married in the uk and going on honeymoon in Italy. I don't know why people are making such a fuss tbh.

It will be good for people who have lived and worked in the uk, sometimes for most of their life, to know where they stand, but worrying about the cost of health insurance and holidays?


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Has it been confirmed that insurance costs will definitely increase?


No it hasn't been confirmed. The insurance companies may choose to take on the extra risk at no charge at all. My assumption is that they are there to make money for their shareholders, not give it away.



MiffyMoo said:


> We also cannot assume what the exchange rate will be in a couple of years' time. We have absolutely no idea what could happen in the EU that may affect the Euro, or any other multitude factors that could affect the value of the £ vs. any other currency


Indeed we can't assume the exchange rate at some point in the future. What we do know is that Brexit - the effects of which we are discussing - has already lowered the pound's value and is a downward pressure on it. Other factors may mitigate that effect, but they don't change it.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Factually that's no different from what they're saying here. The talks can't progress to trade until they've agreed a divorce settlement. The Eu want enough that Britain leaving makes no difference to them and Eu countries dont pay any more. Britain only want to pay what they are legally obliged to. What the Eu want is currently being looked at by legal eagles to see if we're obligated, they aren't just going to pay it because the Eu want it.
> 
> The Eu have 27 countries behind it, all backing them in getting as much money as possible out of us. Britain has the money. It depends how much they want our money as to how many cards they're holding. So the analogy isn't quite true. The Eu is all about the money. We don't want money from the Eu, they want it from us.
> 
> If it were a chess game the queen is the strongest piece.


Contracts are legal documents and there are lots of them BWT Britain and EU, That is what EU respects, but UK negotiators don´t. I agree that Britain should pay only what you are legally bound, no more. It is like if you buy a car in stallments, you still have to pay the rest, even if you stop using it. Analogy is excatly the same about the divorce bill. Naturally yu have no interest paying anything, even when you were happy to gain all the benefits from the conracts, while being a member.

EU wants to assure rights and protection for EU citizens living in UK, which UK isn´t that interested in, as UK thinjs those rights should be subjected to politics. Imagine how even a more populistic goverment would affect to the lives of non Brits living in UK? This not about the money at all, but about human rights. For UK human rights are just politics, which can be abused, if that would benefit the govermment

Why is it so difficult to see that? I know the news is not good for Brexiteers, but denying them will make the end result just worse. I can understand why current weak and incompetent govermment wants to deny these facts for as long as it can, as once it is all out in the open, it will mean the end of their careers.
But what are the benefits for the ordinary people to accept the no deal result? There are none.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> No it hasn't been confirmed. The insurance companies may choose to take on the extra risk at no charge at all. My assumption is that they are there to make money for their shareholders, not give it away.
> 
> Indeed we can't assume the exchange rate at some point in the future. What we do know is that Brexit - the effects of which we are discussing - has already lowered the pound's value and is a downward pressure on it. Other factors may mitigate that effect, but they don't change it.


So basically, your last post, despite you announcing with full surety that this will definitely happen, was all assumption based


----------



## Rudydog

Elles said:


> It will be good for people who have lived and worked in the uk, sometimes for most of their life, to know where they stand, but worrying about the cost of health insurance and holidays?


Have to say I agree with this, there are much bigger battles to fight right now.... (although I presume you refer to travel insurance rather than health insurance to receive medical treatement in your country of residence which let's face it is another not too distant threat to us all...)


----------



## MiffyMoo

MrsZee said:


> Contracts are legal documents and there are lots of them BWT Britain and EU, That is what EU respects, but UK negotiators don´t. I agree that Britain should pay only what you are legally bound, no more. It is like if you buy a car in stallments, you still have to pay the rest, even if you stop using it. Analogy is excatly the same about the divorce bill. Naturally yu have no interest paying anything, even when you were happy to gain all the benefits from the conracts, while being a member.
> 
> EU wants to assure rights and protection for EU citizens living in UK, which UK isn´t that interested in, as UK thinjs those rights should be subjected to politics. Imagine how even a more populistic goverment would affect to the lives of non Brits living in UK? This not about the money at all, but about human rights. For UK human rights are just politics, which can be abused, if that would benefit the govermment
> 
> Why is it so difficult to see that? I know the news is not good for Brexiteers, but denying them will make the end result just worse. I can understand why current weak and incompetent govermment wants to deny these facts for as long as it can, as once it is all out in the open, it will mean the end of their careers.
> But what are the benefits for the ordinary people to accept the no deal result? There are none.


The Swiss are pushing back against the ECJ dictating their laws as well.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Rudydog said:


> Have to say I agree with this, there are much bigger battles to fight right now.... (although I presume you refer to travel insurance rather than health insurance to receive medical treatement in your country of residence which let's face it is another not too distant threat to us all...)


That's absolute rubbish. Please point to where it has been said that we will start having to pay for our medical treatments


----------



## Elles

Sorry, yes I meant the health part of travel insurance.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ses-and-predictions-brexiteers-are-collapsing









"They need us more than we need them", remember?!


----------



## Elles

MiffyMoo said:


> That's absolute rubbish. Please point to where it has been said that we will start having to pay for our medical treatments


An Eu citizen with settled status will get the same access to the NHS as a Brit, that's true, but in Europe it's not settled yet, so it is a possibility.


----------



## Elles

When the leavers say 'keep Britain in the Eu' as it's too difficult to leave, I might listen.


----------



## Rudydog

MiffyMoo said:


> That's absolute rubbish. Please point to where it has been said that we will start having to pay for our medical treatments


I haven't actually said that have I? But it is clear that the NHS is struggling financially and is being slowly privatised (along with many other public health services across the globe where they exist) so it is not hard to imagine a day where we will have to pay for medical treatement on some level (either via health insurance or otherwise) - this has nothing to do with brexit though.

I was just clarifying that Elles was referring to travel insurenace in her comment not medical cover insurance


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> An Eu citizen with settled status will get the same access to the NHS as a Brit, that's true, but in Europe it's not settled yet, so it is a possibility.


The last line about a threat to us all wasn't about Brits settled in other countries


----------



## Rudydog

Yes sorry my last comment had nothing to do with Brexit at all, it was just a general side comment


----------



## Elles

Ah ok. Don't forget the conservatives are selling the NHS to America though, so well have the American system soon.


----------



## Rudydog

Elles said:


> Ah ok. Don't forget the conservatives are selling the NHS to America though, so well have the American system soon.


Yes this is what I was referring to... well more generally that the NHS is underfunded and as a result struggling to meet demand. Nothing to do with Brexit or EU citizens... so OT really


----------



## kimthecat

Has has been said many times here already , the uncertainty affects the pound and the shares etc the pound fell and then recovered and then fell but the mess the politicians have made isn't going to help , but on the other hand there has been a rise in tourism especially the Americans this summer due to the weak pound though that's not much consolation for those here wanting to holiday abroad .


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> So basically, your last post, despite you announcing with full surety that this will definitely happen, was all assumption based


Well, no, except in as much as I assume insurance companies won't change the actuarial behaviour that they have followed since they started trading. If risk increases, so do premiums, otherwise they go bust. Do you have reason to cast doubt on that?

As for the pound being depreciated by Brexit; that isn't an assumption because it's already happened.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> When the leavers say 'keep Britain in the Eu' as it's too difficult to leave, I might listen.


They won't. It doesn't matter how difficult, damaging or costly it is. All will be right with the world when they can pretend we are the same country we were 50 years ago.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Well, no, except in as much as I assume insurance companies won't change the actuarial behaviour that they have followed since they started trading. If risk increases, so do premiums, otherwise they go bust. Do you have reason to cast doubt on that?
> 
> As for the pound being depreciated by Brexit; that isn't an assumption because it's already happened.


I'm not going to make Wild assumptions as to how the insurance companies will react. Prices will increase, because that's inflation. Now whether they put the prices up significantly to reflect the change is to be seen. I just had a look, and for an OAP couple to go to Australia, the quote is £10 more expensive, so yes it's more, but it's really not going to make the difference between going and not going.

The currency markets fluctuate all the time, so yes it has gone down now, but it could go back up, the Euro could slump etc. As I said, nobody has any clue what is going to happen in the next two years


----------



## Guest

MiffyMoo said:


> The Swiss are pushing back against the ECJ dictating their laws as well.


Swiss are not even member of UN, and naturally they´d like to keep their bank secrecy... that is a big dispute btw Swiss and EU. For me criminals (like mafia, dictators, war lords, and tax frauders) should not have a legal bank, where they can hide their money, so I am all for EU in this matter.

And that is the reason Swiss can afford to be outside just about anything, it is a genuily wealthy country, unlike UK or Finland...

(But don´t get me wrong, there is lots that need improving in EU, but still the the outways the bad).


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm not going to make Wild assumptions as to how the insurance companies will react. Prices will increase, because that's inflation. Now whether they put the prices up significantly to reflect the change is to be seen. I just had a look, and for an OAP couple to go to Australia, the quote is £10 more expensive, so yes it's more, but it's really not going to make the difference between going and not going.
> 
> The currency markets fluctuate all the time, so yes it has gone down now, but it could go back up, the Euro could slump etc. As I said, nobody has any clue what is going to happen in the next two years


Premiums rising in response to increased risk is hardly a 'wild assumption', especially with a capital W ! 

And currency markets do indeed fluctuate all the time, but we also do know the isolated effect of Brexit; just look at June 24th 2016, for starters.

But we are clearly not going to agree so I'll leave this particular topic there.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Elles said:


> Ah ok. Don't forget the conservatives are selling the NHS to America though, so well have the American system soon.


Ah, yes, I've heard that. I haven't been able to find where to buy NHS shares, though. It has to be the crappiest and slowest privatisation in the history of crappy privatisations.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Ah, yes, I've heard that. I haven't been able to find where to buy NHS shares, though. It has to be the crappiest and slowest privatisation in the history of crappy privatisations.


If you don't think our NHS is being privatised & remodelled on the dire US health service then you're either not paying attention or you're in denial.

Millions of contracts have already gone to private companies, that's why services are becoming more & more fragmented. (Putting NHS services out to private tender is now actually enshrined in law thanks to the tories Health & Social Care act 2012, where the private companies basically buy the most lucrative parts of our NHS. )

You're going to have to face reality soon.


----------



## kimthecat

.


----------



## Rudydog

noushka05 said:


> If you don't think our NHS is being privatised & remodelled on the dire US health service then you're either not paying attention or you're in denial.
> 
> Millions of contracts have already gone to private companies, that's why services are becoming more & more fragmented. (Putting NHS services out to private tender is now actually enshrined in law thanks to the tories Health & Social Care act 2012, where the private companies basically buy the most lucrative parts of our NHS. )
> 
> You're going to have to face reality soon.


Couldn't have put it better myself!


----------



## Rudydog

samuelsmiles said:


> Ah, yes, I've heard that. I haven't been able to find where to buy NHS shares, though. It has to be the crappiest and slowest privatisation in the history of crappy privatisations.


Maybe try Virgin care, care uk, serco, capita or any of the other private companies picking up NHS outsourcing contracts ....


----------



## Elles

I feel a bit guilty really. We couldn't be happier with Brexit. Echoing Macmillan's famous words (financially) 'we've never had it so good.' I just hope what follows is a bit better than it was for him and it all works out well for most people in the end. 

What the conservatives may or may not be doing with the NHS has nothing to do with Brexit and travel insurance ofc.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> As for the pound being depreciated by Brexit; that isn't an assumption because it's already happened.


The devaluation of the pound has sod all to do with Brexit as we haven't yet. It's to do with the uncertainty of the the pathetic negotiations which are as much the EU's fault as the UK's. Come Brexit then we'll actually know how it's effecting the pound, it could indeed soar (which wouldn't be good). Brexit hasn't effected anything yet, speculation, half arsed economists and the media have though.


----------



## kimthecat

Rudydog said:


> Couldn't have put it better myself!


Don't understand your post . Was it meant for me . Couldnt put what better ? It was just a dot


----------



## Elles

It quoted someone else's post. Is someone ignoring someone?


----------



## Rudydog

kimthecat said:


> Don't understand your post . Was it meant for me . Couldnt put what better ? It was just a dot


Nope I didn't quote your post, I quoted @noushka05


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> It quoted someone else's post. Is someone ignoring someone?


:Hilarious more than one , about half of PF , I get through the threads a lot quicker


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious more than one , about half of PF , I get through the threads a lot quicker


I did that for a while, but it just got far too confusing


----------



## KittenKong

MrsZee said:


> The idea seems to be that Britains wants those rights it already had when it was part of EU. Now Britain is in chaos, and the negotiators try anything, like have tried to make separate deals with Germany and France. For them it is just a matter of trying to cut losses down, and no one is even thinking of benefits Britain will have once our of EU
> There is no secret plan, which EU hoped Britain would have had, ust quarreling politicians, who try to say something positive about Brexit.
> 
> The summary was that if this were poker, EU has a 27 card flush and Britain just a queen as the highest card.


Laughable isn't it. Exiting the EU surely means sacrificing all rights and benefits of EU membership and citizenship. None of these were mentioned it the leave nor remain campaigns, at least on everyday media.


Elles said:


> What the conservatives may or may not be doing with the NHS has nothing to do with Brexit and travel insurance ofc.


To a point you're right about the NHS but as predicted the Conservatives have moved to the far right so will accelerate privatisation as a result.

As for the EHIC this is EU related. This government are determined to do away with anything "European", it will have everything to do with them. Again, you can't leave the EU without sacrificing the benefits that came with it as many are now finding out.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> Laughable isn't it. Exiting the EU surely means sacrificing all rights and benefits of EU membership and citizenship. None of these were mentioned it the leave nor remain campaigns, at least on everyday media
> .


You're so funny. What exactly do you think "leave" means?


----------



## Elles

It means that poor people who can't afford to go abroad and self employed who don't have time to go abroad are no longer paying for free health care for those that can afford the time and money. Any advantages of being in the Eu are paid for, they aren't free. If those who have holidays in the Eu will have to pay a small sum for insurance instead, well it's fairer on everyone.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> It means that poor people who can't afford to go abroad and self employed who don't have time to go abroad are no longer paying for free health care for those that can afford the time and money. Any advantages of being in the Eu are paid for, they aren't free. If those who have holidays in the Eu will have to pay a small sum for insurance instead, well it's fairer on everyone.


Well, nothing is for free is it. In the same sense the monarchy are subsidised by the taxpayer whether one is a committed royalist or republican. I am very much the latter but have no say in where the money goes!

Given as an example, not intending to go off topic.


----------



## noushka05

Rudydog said:


> Couldn't have put it better myself!


Thank you x When the NHS is gone those who are apologists for this bent government will have their share of blame. It amazes me how so many people choose to vote against, not only the interests of the majority - but their own too. Its like the millions of ordinary people who support Trump - hes trashing the country but still they defend him. The demise of our two countries isn't a pretty site - but the people who voted against all expert advice & continue to support these disastrous governments are part of the problem.



Elles said:


> I feel a bit guilty really. We couldn't be happier with Brexit. Echoing Macmillan's famous words (financially) 'we've never had it so good.' I just hope what follows is a bit better than it was for him and it all works out well for most people in the end.
> 
> 
> What the conservatives may or may not be doing with the NHS has nothing to do with Brexit and travel insurance ofc.


Hope is all brexiters have got or ever had. Brexit is already a disaster & its set to get so much worse. Financially 'we've never had it so good' _because _we're in the EU Elles. Now brexit is already killing our currency & increasing inflation & we haven't even left yet.

I was responding to those who seem unaware the tories are selling off our NHS to private companies & Americanising it. And here's what the Royal College of Physicians have to say about the impact of brexit. https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/projects/outputs/brexit-what-does-it-mean-patients-and-doctors

*Brexit: What does it mean for patients and doctors?*
*RCP policy: Brexit*




*

Brexit: What does it mean?
*
*Brexit: What does it mean for patients and doctors? is part of a series of briefings produced by the Royal College of Physicians (RCP) outlining key statistics on topics surrounding Brexit negotiations and beyond.*


*Workforce stats in brief*

*9.3% of doctors *working in the NHS are from EU member states.[1]
*21% of doctors *who qualified overseas have told the RCP that they plan to leave the UK in the next five years or are unsure of their plans.[2]
Certain specialties are more reliant on doctors from EU members states than others - for example, *11% of cardiology specialists, 13% of infectious disease specialists and 14% of neurology specialists *are from EU member states.[3]
The NHS is understaffed and overstretched[4], with *52% of consultants *telling us that at least one post in their department has been left unfilled; two-thirds of these have advertised more than once.[5]


*What it means for patients*
The NHS is already understaffed and struggling to meet rising demand.6 74% of physicians are worried about the ability of their service to deliver safe patient care in the next 12 months.[6] Making it harder to recruit and retain doctors will only put patient safety at greater risk and make it more difficult for them to access the care they need.
Increasing demands on the medical workforce mean that there is less time for research, training and educational support, making it harder for the next generation of doctors to learn the skills they need to provide the highest-quality patient care.

*What it means for the medical workforce*

Brexit will make it harder for the NHS to recruit new doctors from outside of the UK.
Leaving the EU means that doctors from EU Member States will have to obtain visas to work in the UK.
EU rules on working practices, including the Working Time Directive, will no longer apply automatically in the UK.
Workforce morale is already low.[6,7] Uncertainty among doctors whether they or their colleagues will be able to remain in the UK will further harm morale. Our members warn that low morale can harm patient safety.[6,7]

https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/projects/outputs/brexit-what-does-it-mean-patients-and-doctors



kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious more than one , about half of PF , I get through the threads a lot quicker


You only have to hear things which feed your confirmation bias then - like people who read the Mail because it tells them what they want to hear



Elles said:


> It means that poor people who can't afford to go abroad and self employed who don't have time to go abroad are no longer paying for free health care for those that can afford the time and money. Any advantages of being in the Eu are paid for, they aren't free. If those who have holidays in the Eu will have to pay a small sum for insurance instead, well it's fairer on everyone.


We get great value for money - we know we're going to be poorer outside the EU, its all about damage limitation now - there are NO advantages for leaving. If things are going to be good, why is the government hiding the 57 impact studies?

Theres a petition for anyone who cares about finding out the truth - http://www.europeanmovement.co.uk/release_the_studies

Surely even those who voted leave want to know too?


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> *The devaluation of the pound has sod all to do with Brexit* as we haven't yet. It's to do with the uncertainty of the the pathetic negotiations which are as much the EU's fault as the UK's. Come Brexit then we'll actually know how it's effecting the pound, it could indeed soar (which wouldn't be good). Brexit hasn't effected anything yet, speculation, half arsed economists and the media have though.


The day after the Brexit referendum, when the UK (narrowly) voted for Brexit, the pound fell 15% against the euro. Difficult to argue that it had nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> You're so funny. What exactly do you think "leave" means?


It clearly didn't mean leave the single market for example.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...asy-is-costing-us-dear?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Brilliant article from "The Guardian".


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...asy-is-costing-us-dear?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## noushka05

I'm surprised no one has posted about this already. It is HUGE.

What do brexit, Trump & Kenya have in common?


----------



## noushka05

LOL

*davidclewis* Sep 1

Chris Webster (aged 54) = legend


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> The day after the Brexit referendum, when the UK (narrowly) voted for Brexit, the pound fell 15% against the euro. Difficult to argue that it had nothing to do with Brexit.


And why was that? It wasn't because of Brexit, can't have been, impossible in fact. We won't know what effect Brexit has on the value of the pound until 2019 at the earliest and more likely 2020/21.

Don't confuse Brexit with speculation


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> The day after the Brexit referendum, when the UK (narrowly) voted for Brexit, the pound fell 15% against the euro. Difficult to argue that it had nothing to do with Brexit.


 Dr pepper


> And why was that? It wasn't because of Brexit, can't have been, impossible in fact. We won't know what effect Brexit has on the value of the pound until 2019 at the earliest and more likely 2020/21.
> 
> Don't confuse Brexit with speculation


#11080 Dr Pepper, 45 minutes ago

Yes it did drop because of the result . .

Again because of the uncertainty , this happens with any country at any time . Any change causes this and a major change more so and this crap the MPs are causing with their arguing is causing even more damage .


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> No, we bloody well won't and never will!


So you have been telling us for 15 months.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> So you have been telling us for 15 months.


only 15 months ? feels more like 15 years


----------



## kimthecat

Why bother arguing , we're fecked anyway 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41139445

North Korea says it has successfully tested a nuclear weapon that could be loaded onto a long-range missile.
The secretive communist state said its sixth nuclear test was a "perfect success", hours after seismologists had detected an earth tremor.
Pyongyang said it had tested a hydrogen bomb - a device many times more powerful than an atomic bomb.
Analysts say the claims should be treated with caution, but its nuclear capability is clearly advancing.


----------



## Elles

When I say we've never had it so good, I mean my family business. The weaker pound has really helped our small companies and the small specialist uk manufacturer who make some of our parts. Our sales in the uk and abroad have improved. We've even had our first orders from Germany. 

The South West of the UK is also quite reliant on tourism, which due to the nice weather and the weak pound has also had a mini boom. Which is nice for small guest houses and touristy cafes and shops.

It might be cheaper to buy in products from abroad when the pound is strong and there are no import duties or tariffs, which makes it great for importers. Small uk companies who don't import and use home grown are better with the weaker pound and tariffs on imports.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> It clearly didn't mean leave the single market for example.


When even your beloved Messiah puts it in his manifesto, you really have to question your statement. Let's not look too closely at his current u turn on it, given he previously sacked 3 shadow ministers for suggesting we stay in


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> I'm surprised no one has posted about this already. It is HUGE.
> 
> What do brexit, Trump & Kenya have in common?


https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...es-cambridge-analytica-what-role-brexit-trump


----------



## Elles

So some Welsh bloke called Chris Webster wants to starve old people, secure in the knowledge that his friends will vote for themselves and not the disadvantaged. You think that's nice?


----------



## Vanessa131

Arnie83 said:


> The less well off, perhaps?


Can afford to go abroad, but can't afford insurance? No, can't be bothered with insurance more like. I have to get insurance to cover a pre-existing condition, it still costs no more than £20.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> And why was that? It wasn't because of Brexit, can't have been, impossible in fact. We won't know what effect Brexit has on the value of the pound until 2019 at the earliest and more likely 2020/21.
> 
> Don't confuse Brexit with speculation


And the reason for the speculation was what, do you think?

The Bank of England reduced the interest rate because of Brexit. The Chancellor changed his short, medium and long term strategy because of Brexit, pushing the targeted surplus back to 2025 at the earliest. The stock market rose because of Brexit. Business investment has slowed (not stopped) because of Brexit.

Almost everything that happens in the economy is based on the predicted effects of some future event. It's silly to say that the future event, whatever it is, has no bearing on the reaction to its approaching occurrence. Further reactions will undoubtedly follow the event, but right now we are seeing the effects of Brexit even though it is 2 years down the line. Or 4. Or never.

This is another one I'm not going to pursue because it really does fit in the bleedin' obvious category and comes across as arguing for the sake of it.


----------



## Arnie83

Vanessa131 said:


> Can afford to go abroad, but can't afford insurance? No, can't be bothered with insurance more like. I have to get insurance to cover a pre-existing condition, it still costs no more than £20.


For most it will make no difference. At the margins some who can barely afford to go abroad will decide that they no longer can. All price rises have that consequence.


----------



## Elles

They aren't going to die because they can't afford to go to Spain this year. At least they get a holiday. They can spend less closer to home and save up for next year, or have their holidays in the uk. I haven't been abroad for years, and have never been able to afford to visit my sister in Australia. I'm not dead yet. People spend money on all sorts of rubbish. One less Macdonalds a week will pay for it and give them spare for spending money. The higher cost of going abroad is advantageous to people who work in the tourist industry here, as is the weaker pound. Swings and roundabouts and far greater issues to worry about. Someone can't afford £20 extra for their holiday in the Alps, some of the disabled can't afford to live. Government not Eu.

People buying cheap from abroad and selling at a premium in the uk, well yes they could be scuppered for a while. People who can't afford £20 extra for insurance to go abroad. Well they're already doomed with the exchange rates and the stronger Euro, which has more to do with Eu currency manipulation than Brexit anyway, so was already happening. 

If it's harder for GPs from abroad to work here and I don't agree it will be particularly, plenty come here from outside the Eu already, our government can make it easier for them if we need them. Then it can get on with training our own and making the job attractive, instead of poaching other countries' training. Our government relying on Poland, Spain and Portugal, or even the Philippines to train our health workers is scandalous.

Remainers may think that paying the Eu for membership was value for money, maybe leavers didn't. Where the idea of staying in the single market came from, I'm not sure tbh. As far as I was aware voting leave meant leaving the Eu which has the single market and freedom of movement of people, goods etc at its core. Some Remainers now believe that we only voted to leave a little bit of the Eu? We were told plenty of times before the referendum and since that we can't cherry pick.


----------



## kimthecat

Vanessa131 said:


> Can afford to go abroad, but can't afford insurance? No, can't be bothered with insurance more like. I have to get insurance to cover a pre-existing condition, it still costs no more than £20.


 I have a pre- existing condition and was wondering about the cost. I was expecting it to be more than that , that is a good price.


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> I have a pre- existing condition and was wondering about the cost. I was expecting it to be more than that , that is a good price.


Admittedly it's a long time since I've bought holiday insurance that I was used to buy annual policies for both of us used to cost us about £70 per year and that was worldwide as we were either in America the West Indies or Asia, Seldom Europe


----------



## Elles

I think people are saying it'll go up after we leave the Eu and insurance companies will be paying for health care on holidays in the Eu too.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Then it can get on with training our own and making the job attractive, instead of poaching other countries' training.


What with the 350million per week for the NHS? Government is going to have less money to spend.



> Remainers may think that paying the Eu for membership was value for money, maybe leavers didn't. Where the idea of staying in the single market came from, I'm not sure tbh. As far as I was aware voting leave meant leaving the Eu which has the single market and freedom of movement of people, goods etc at its core. Some Remainers now believe that we only voted to leave a little bit of the Eu? We were told plenty of times before the referendum and since that we can't cherry pick.


Maybe that's as leavers didn't look at the facts available and the positive impact the single market has on GDP for example. A great return on investment.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> And the reason for the speculation was what, do you think?
> 
> The Bank of England reduced the interest rate because of Brexit. The Chancellor changed his short, medium and long term strategy because of Brexit, pushing the targeted surplus back to 2025 at the earliest. The stock market rose because of Brexit. Business investment has slowed (not stopped) because of Brexit.
> 
> Almost everything that happens in the economy is based on the predicted effects of some future event. It's silly to say that the future event, whatever it is, has no bearing on the reaction to its approaching occurrence. Further reactions will undoubtedly follow the event, but right now we are seeing the effects of Brexit even though it is 2 years down the line. Or 4. Or never.
> 
> This is another one I'm not going to pursue because it really does fit in the bleedin' obvious category and comes across as arguing for the sake of it.


Exactly, speculation as I said, not Brexit itself as that hasn't happened yet. The pound was always going to fall following a leave vote and the period of uncertainty that produced, I don't think anyone thought, or said, otherwise. What you can't know is what the effect of leaving the EU will have on the pound (or euro for that matter).


----------



## Elles

It's speculation on the Leaver's side, facts on the Remain.

I hope we stay a little uncertain for a bit longer. At least long enough for us to finish the bathroom and maybe replace the windows, or get solar panels on the roof. Unfortunately the Netherlands arent offering to pay for us to get solar panels. Do you think the councils can increase the rent on their social housing once they've got solar panels? Or reduce the benefits to people in line with a reduction in their electricity costs? 

A little OT I suppose.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> It's speculation on the Leaver's side, facts on the Remain.
> 
> I hope we stay a little uncertain for a bit longer. At least long enough for us to finish the bathroom and maybe replace the windows, or get solar panels on the roof. Unfortunately the Netherlands arent offering to pay for us to get solar panels. Do you think the councils can increase the rent on their social housing once they've got solar panels? Or reduce the benefits to people in line with a reduction in their electricity costs?
> 
> A little OT I suppose.


The article said it would save about £240 a year, so I doubt anyone will be amending their rent / benefits by £4.62 a week


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> For most it will make no difference. At the margins some who can barely afford to go abroad will decide that they no longer can. All price rises have that consequence.


£10.30 (50 year old male) for a weeks travel insurance to the USA. That £10,000,000 medical (including repatriation), £1,000 cancellation and £1,000 baggage. So travel insurance within the EU will be certainly no more than that. That will stop nobody from having their holiday, it's less than the cost of a meal out,. Let's face it you'd be daft to holiday without insurance anyway.


----------



## Elles

MiffyMoo said:


> The article said it would save about £240 a year, so I doubt anyone will be amending their rent / benefits by £4.62 a week


Is that all? Not worth us bothering then. I'll be dead before we see the benefit. Better spending our money on something else.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> As far as I was aware voting leave meant leaving the Eu which has the single market and freedom of movement of people, goods etc at its core. Some Remainers now believe that we only voted to leave a little bit of the Eu? We were told plenty of times before the referendum and since that we can't cherry pick.


Without being picky I must point out again that we voted simply to leave the EU. That means no longer being a member of the EU.

Norway (among others) is not a member of the EU.

It _is_ a member of the single market.

You don't have to be a member of the EU to be a member of the single market (despite May saying that you did the other day; she either doesn't understand or she lied).

So we can Leave the EU, Remain in the single market and respect the result of the referendum. That's a fact.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> Is that all? Not worth us bothering then. I'll be dead before we see the benefit. Better spending our money on something else.


Yeah, I was looking into getting solar panels, and it works out that it takes something like 23 years before they have paid themselves off. Obviously it's good for the environment, but unless you have pots of money, or the government are paying, most people simply can't afford them. You can also only have them if you have a South facing roof.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> They aren't going to die because they can't afford to go to Spain this year. At least they get a holiday. They can spend less closer to home and save up for next year, or have their holidays in the uk. I haven't been abroad for years, and have never been able to afford to visit my sister in Australia. I'm not dead yet. People spend money on all sorts of rubbish. One less Macdonalds a week will pay for it and give them spare for spending money. The higher cost of going abroad is advantageous to people who work in the tourist industry here, as is the weaker pound. Swings and roundabouts and far greater issues to worry about. Someone can't afford £20 extra for their holiday in the Alps, some of the disabled can't afford to live. Government not Eu.
> 
> People buying cheap from abroad and selling at a premium in the uk, well yes they could be scuppered for a while. People who can't afford £20 extra for insurance to go abroad. Well they're already doomed with the exchange rates and the stronger Euro, which has more to do with Eu currency manipulation than Brexit anyway, so was already happening.
> 
> If it's harder for GPs from abroad to work here and I don't agree it will be particularly, plenty come here from outside the Eu already, our government can make it easier for them if we need them. Then it can get on with training our own and making the job attractive, instead of poaching other countries' training. Our government relying on Poland, Spain and Portugal, or even the Philippines to train our health workers is scandalous.
> 
> Remainers may think that paying the Eu for membership was value for money, maybe leavers didn't. Where the idea of staying in the single market came from, I'm not sure tbh. As far as I was aware voting leave meant leaving the Eu which has the single market and freedom of movement of people, goods etc at its core. Some Remainers now believe that we only voted to leave a little bit of the Eu? We were told plenty of times before the referendum and since that we can't cherry pick.


Thing is though, quite a lot of people who voted for Brexit do take regular holidays abroad and will not be aware of the consequences when listening to soundbites and obeying headlines like, "Believe in Britain"!

These vile newspapers are sold in Spain etc.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> Thing is though, quite a lot of people who voted for Brexit do take regular holidays abroad and will not be aware of the consequences when listening to soundbites and obeying headlines like, "Believe in Britain"!


Exactly how do you know all those points? And, as has already been stated by a few people, an extra £10 per couple in insurance (if it's even that) will not make a difference between going or not going


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Without being picky I must point out again that we voted simply to leave the EU. That means no longer being a member of the EU.
> 
> Norway (among others) is not a member of the EU.
> 
> It _is_ a member of the single market.
> 
> You don't have to be a member of the EU to be a member of the single market (despite May saying that you did the other day; she either doesn't understand or she lied).
> 
> So we can Leave the EU, Remain in the single market and respect the result of the referendum. That's a fact.


I wholeheartedly agree with you but May and indeed Corbyn have insisted the UK must leave the EU and remaining in the single market and/or customs union does not count as leaving. This is absolutely nonsense as countries like Norway has proven.

Norway is not in the customs union and checks exist between the Norway and the Sweden/EU border.

An interesting news report shows items confiscated from the Swedish/EU by Norwegian customs such as alcoholic drinks which are cheaper over the EU border.

So the days where Brits will be able go to Calais for cheap alcohol and tobacco also look to be numbered.

Something else that was never considered on voting to leave!


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> Yeah, I was looking into getting solar panels, and it works out that it takes something like 23 years before they have paid themselves off. Obviously it's good for the environment, but unless you have pots of money, or the government are paying, most people simply can't afford them. You can also only have them if you have a South facing roof.
> 
> http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels


We have solar panels we bought them out right as the interest we were getting on our savings was pathetic and as the electricity kept going up and up we decided to take the leap. Looking by The Return we have had so far it will take us about 16 years to recoup the actual outlay, but that does not account for inflation. We also need to add to the equation the saving on our electricity bills which has been really quite good as we are here most of the day and tend to do the most costly chores whilst we are producing the most electricity. All in all we don't regret it but if we had to have relied on those savings I don't think we would have done it. That said a friend of mine was in right at the very beginning she cashed in her Isa s as the interest had taken a terrible Tumbles and it was the only savings they had they paid twice what we paid for our panels but the way they are going they will have recouped all of the outlay within 10 years easily, those in at the early stages get around three times more than those who go into the scheme now almost 50p a kilowatt it was then I believe, now I guess its around 13p per k.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> So you have been telling us for 15 months.


I'll say the same in 15 years time but hopefully by then we'll have a moderate government who'll join the EEA as rejoining the EU will be out of the question.


----------



## 1290423

Im more worried about the nutcase in korea then I am about brexit


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> I'll say the same in 15 years time but hopefully by then we'll have a moderate government who'll join the EEA as rejoining the EU will be out of the question.


Wonder what odds the bookies would give as to if there is even an EU there in 15 years


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Thing is though, quite a lot of people who voted for Brexit do take regular holidays abroad and will not be aware of the consequences when listening to soundbites and obeying headlines like, "Believe in Britain"!
> 
> These vile newspapers are sold in Spain etc.


I think those who live overseas on there own finances will continue to do so, those keeping there council houses, visiting home for a couple of months a year and living cheaply whist over there may struggle


----------



## Zaros

DT said:


> Im more worried about the nutcase in korea then I am about brexit


Stop scaremongering, DT.

How dangerous can Lego people really be?

Lego people definition: _Little yellow men with sh1tty haircuts attempting to build something far too complicated which inevitably falls to bits the very moment they want to play with it._


----------



## 1290423

Zaros said:


> Stop scaremongering, DT.
> 
> How dangerous can Lego people really be?
> 
> Lego people definition:  _Little yellow men with sh1tty haircuts attempting to build something far too complicated which inevitably falls to bits the very moment they want to play with it._


I just love your method of defining .


----------



## Elles

The Eu have been manipulating the Euro for a while now, so eventually they were going to have to let it get stronger. Either way holidays abroad would be more expensive. If all you have to worry about is the cost of your holidays, think yourself lucky and I don't think that's a reason to vote either way. Exchange rates and holidays are more to do with the Euro than the Eu and we never took the Euro. There seem to be a lot of biased assumptions being made about people. 

We'd have only had no uncertainty, if the government hadn't bothered with Article 50, dumped the Eu on day one and gave them a few quid as goodwill. Which is what ukip and many leavers wanted. They didn't, so now we all have to wait. 

'I didn't know I'd have to pay for holiday insurance, I wish I'd voted to remain' isn't something we'll be hearing from leavers any time soon imo. Nor is 'I'm desperate to stay in the single market, I didn't know we'd have to leave, I should have voted Remain.'

They're saying the booze cruise will return along with duty frees. Not that cheap alcohol and cigarettes is anything to be glad about. Cheap booze and cigarettes are not a good thing. So not something I would have taken into my calculations before voting.

I don't know these hypothetical leavers either though, so maybe I'm wrong about them, maybe we should have a poll.

Norway is part of schengen too. Looks like cherry picking outside the Eu is an option after all. I really haven't heard any leave voters wanting to pick out parts of it though. Remainers yes, but not leavers. We were told before the referendum it was all or nothing and the Eu won't be helpful as they'll need to look after their own interests if we left.

Which parts of the Eu would leave voters on petforums like to pay out of taxes to keep and didn't know we'd be giving up? I presume staying in the single market, or getting 'free' health care in Europe won't come for nothing.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> but hopefully by then we'll have a moderate government who'll join the EEA


Good luck with that!!


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Good luck with that!!


They say a week in politics is a long time, let alone 15 years.

Twenty years ago I didn't expect to see a government to the right of Margaret Thatcher's.....


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Im more worried about the nutcase in korea then I am about brexit


I'm more worried about the nutcase in Washington than I am about Brexit.


----------



## Dr Pepper

I'm more worried about what I'm going to have for tea tonight rather than any nutters or Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I'm more worried about the nutcase in Washington than I am about Brexit.


And the nutcase in Downing Street.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> And the nutcase in Downing Street.


Nah, the nutcase who thinks he might get into Downing Street


----------



## MiffyMoo

DT said:


> Nah, the nutcase who thinks he might get into Downing Street


The trio of nutcases who think they won the election


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> Wonder what odds the bookies would give as to if there is even an EU there in 15 years


Im sure it will still be here.
Germany is going to the polls. Be interesting to see if Angela will still be in charge .


----------



## Goblin

I find it funny how people are now denying that the leave campaign promised we could stay in the single market or at least the free trade area. Remember this: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36074853 ? Then there's Johnson http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html. There's always some form of adjudicating panel to resolve trade disputes but the current government has nixed that idea.

If it wasn't for the mess it would cause, although hard to imagine how much worse it could be, I do agree that Farage should have been negotiating. At least then the UK public would know where to place the blame. Then again, they would still blame the EU for what they voted for. That's probably the reason Farage did a runner as soon as possible.

Anyone also notice how those who voted leave still cannot provide advantages which stand up to reality for leaving. Trade is only part of the equation. How many things like EURATOM are being ignored? No wonder confidence isn't high. Then again, that's why details and facts need to be released by the government. People have the right to know not be sidelined by David Davis pretending things are going slowly but effectively.

As for Britain's reputation abroad, a translated piece from germany: http://international.sueddeutsche.de/post/164858513755/great-britains-fantastic-fourWhen the leaders are not respected, neither is the country, as we've seen from Trump.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I'm more worried about the nutcase in Washington than I am about Brexit.


Who would you be more worried about , Trump or Jong un ?


----------



## Arnie83

I see Rees-Mogg has called Juncker "a pound shop Bismarck".

While I have no great love for Juncker, I would have thought that the interests of the UK were better served by not being unnecessarily rude to him, given his influence over Brexit.

But maybe Rees-Mogg isn't all that concerned about the best interests of the UK.


----------



## Elles

No, I hadn't noticed. I accept what people are saying are advantages and potential opportunities.

Neither of your links talk about staying in the single market?
@Goblin


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> I find it funny how people are now denying that the leave campaign promised we could stay in the single market or at least the free trade area.
> .


Which people? people in real life or politicians .


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> I see Rees-Mogg has called Juncker "a pound shop Bismarck".
> 
> While I have no great love for Juncker, I would have thought that the interests of the UK were better served by not being unnecessarily rude to him, given his influence over Brexit.
> 
> But maybe Rees-Mogg isn't all that concerned about the best interests of the UK.


Awh well, expect its an improvement over farages label, juncker the drunker


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> No, I hadn't noticed. I accept what people are saying are advantages and potential opportunities.
> 
> Neither of your links talk about staying in the single market?


Elles, if you could put a tag to the people you are replying to they will be aware you are replying to them . otherwise it looks like you are talking to yourself .

PS i checked that you weren't replying to someone on my ignore list and you weren't .


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I see Rees-Mogg has called Juncker "a pound shop Bismarck".
> 
> .


 That's rather a modern insult for Rees-mogg . I thought he stick to Shakespearean ones.


----------



## Elles

Who voted leave so long as we stay in the single market anyway?


kimthecat said:


> Elles, if you could put a tag to the people you are replying to they will be aware you are replying to them . otherwise it looks like you are talking to yourself .
> 
> PS i checked that you weren't replying to someone on my ignore list and you weren't .


sorry.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> Who voted leave so long as we stay in the single market anyway?
> 
> sorry.


Nobody I know


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Who voted leave so long as we stay in the single market anyway?
> 
> sorry.


 I forgot to put a smiley in my post . I sound like a school marm!
There's no need to apologise .


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> That's rather a modern insult for Rees-mogg . I thought he stick to Shakespearean ones.


A groat emporium Charlemagne?


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> A groat emporium Charlemagne?


 :Hilarious perfect!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Who voted leave so long as we stay in the single market anyway?


No-one; the ballot paper didn't mention the single market.

No-one voted to leave the EU _*and*_ the single market either, for the same reason.


----------



## Elles

So we're just arguing semantics. Remainers weren't voting for the single market either if people want to look at it like that. The argument is that leavers actually meant to stay in the single market and this was promised to them. I don't think that's true.


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Nah, the nutcase who thinks he might get into Downing Street





Elles said:


> Who voted leave so long as we stay in the single market anyway?
> 
> sorry.


Not me, leave meant leaving. Looking forward to it.



Arnie83 said:


> No-one; the ballot paper didn't mention the single market.
> 
> No-one voted to leave the EU _*and*_ the single market either, for the same reason.


Yes they did, the majority did and fully expected to leave the single market. If the "leave" vote thought we wound remain in the single market then no doubt the "leave" vote would have been even higher. You contradict yourself. You may not have taken "leave" means "leave" and understood what you were voting for though, but that's your issue. The single market isn't, sorry wasn't, a reason to remain in the EU.


----------



## Goblin

So people voted to "leave" even though it wasn't defined and you can see how the definition in people's reactions at large has changed as the fantasy hits reality and time has gone on by. People voted to leave, didn't believe the leave campaign with their promises of advantages. Does make you wonder why then.



Dr Pepper said:


> Yes they did, the majority did and fully expected to leave the single market.


Not according to polls which asked that actual question. Leavers push the LSE Oxford study claiming it shows it, it was on buzzfeed so it must be true. Anyone looking at the details however will recognise it does nothing of the sort.


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> Which people? people in real life or politicians .


Both. They need us more than we need them. German car manufacturers will dictate to the EU after all...


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes they did, the majority did and fully expected to leave the single market. If the "leave" vote thought we wound remain in the single market then no doubt the "leave" vote would have been even higher. You contradict yourself. You may not have taken "leave" means "leave" and understood what you were voting for though, but that's your issue. The single market isn't, sorry wasn't, a reason to remain in the EU.


If people voted for something that wasn't on the ballot, but that they simply assumed, then that's up to them. Doesn't mean it has to be delivered, especially if the MPs do their duty by protecting the best interests of their constituents.

Probably worth repeating that since some members of the single market are not members of the EU, you clearly don't have to leave the former while you leave the latter.

But this is another one where I'm not going to argue the toss with you, if you'll excuse me.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Who voted leave so long as we stay in the single market anyway?


Not me. I want out completely


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> Not me. I want out completely


Me too


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> If people voted for something that wasn't on the ballot, but that they simply assumed, then that's up to them. Doesn't mean it has to be delivered, especially if the MPs do their duty by protecting the best interests of their constituents.
> 
> Probably worth repeating that since some members of the single market are not members of the EU, you clearly don't have to leave the former while you leave the latter.
> 
> But this is another one where I'm not going to argue the toss with you, if you'll excuse me.


You miss the point by a country mile. We voted leave expecting that to include the single market, happy with that. Doesn't mean we won't be happy to remain part of it though if that's on the cards and at reasonable rates and doesn't interfere with our own negotiations with othe countries, that'd be a little bonus. Again I'm not sure remainers actually understood what they were voting for.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dr Pepper said:


> You miss the point by a country mile. We voted leave expecting that to include the single market, happy with that. Doesn't mean we won't be happy to remain part of it though if that's on the cards and at reasonable rates and doesn't interfere with our own negotiations with othe countries, that'd be a little bonus.* Again I'm not sure remainers actually understood what they were voting for.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> *I think I know what I voted for, and it's not the mess brexit is in at the moment*


----------



## Dr Pepper

To be fair I didn't vote for the mess Brexit is at the moment either!


----------



## rona

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair I didn't vote for the mess Brexit is at the moment either!


Still nearly 18 months to get it sorted. No matter how stupidly they are all acting at the moment, they all know it will be best to sort this as amicably as possible, that's for both sides.
I think it's just posturing at the moment while the real work goes on behind the scenes


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> You miss the point by a country mile. We voted leave expecting that to include the single market, happy with that.


No, _you personally _voted leave wanting it to include the single market. Other people who voted leave won't even have known what the single market is, or what it does. Others will have voted leave expecting just to leave the EU, not the single market, customs union or any other separate entities/agreements we also happened to be part of.



Dr Pepper said:


> Again I'm not sure remainers actually understood what they were voting for.


Given that Remainers were voting for things to Remain exactly as they were, I'd say out of all the people who voted Remainers were the only ones who could possibly know what they were voting for, given they were already living it


----------



## 1290423

And seeing as this thread is not going to vanish off the radar just might as keep adding my twopenneth.

Anyone thing that sterling might just have hit rock bottom and is about to turn? Could be the only way is UP


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> Not me. I want out completely


Me too rona, and I stand by decision. If we were offered another vote tomorrow my cross would go into that very same box.

And for anyone who tries to tell me I was wrong to vote as I did, that i was misinformed, or I dirdnt do my research , nor listen to the experts or whatever other reason they can pull out of their hats I'll say just one thing!
Ask me again if my decision to vote out was wrong in five years time!


----------



## MiffyMoo

DT said:


> Me too rona, and I stand by decision. If we were offered another vote tomorrow my cross would go into that very same box.
> 
> And for anyone who tries to tell me I was wrong to vote as I did, that i was misinformed, or I dirdnt do my research , nor listen to the experts or whatever other reason they can pull out of their hats I'll say just one thing!
> Ask me again if my decision to vote out was wrong in five years time!


You know what, I made up my mind to vote out, pretty early on. The fact that remainers kept on telling me that I was stupid and brainwashed just made me stick to my guns even more. Aside from the obvious reason, I really want it to be a success so I can tell all of them where to stick their negativity


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> You know what, I made up my mind to vote out, pretty early on. The fact that remainers kept on telling me that I was stupid and brainwashed just made me stick to my guns even more. Aside from the obvious reason, I really want it to be a success so I can tell all of them where to stick their negativity


Well one teams going to have to admit they were wrong sooner or later! I have never doubted we would succeed, may take a little time admittedly, but one things certain, we'll know in the end


----------



## Elles

No one will admit they were wrong, they'll just say it would have been better/worse in/out, however good or bad it gets.


----------



## Elles

DT said:


> And seeing as this thread is not going to vanish off the radar just might as keep adding my twopenneth.
> 
> Anyone thing that sterling might just have hit rock bottom and is about to turn? Could be the only way is UP


Not yet please. Let us make a few more sales first, to build up a good reputation so folk still stick with us after it goes up again.


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> You know what, I made up my mind to vote out, pretty early on. The fact that remainers kept on telling me that I was stupid and brainwashed just made me stick to my guns even more. Aside from the obvious reason, I really want it to be a success so I can tell all of them where to stick their negativity


Strange, most people would actually prove the opposition were wrong by providing facts supporting their argument, something not seen from the leaving side. I'm intrigued if people can provide details of the WTO rules and what it entails for business when the trade deals as part of the EU are thrown out and that's not simply free trade deals. EU has some sort of deal with the majority of the world. How much research have people done that they are so happy to go that route?

Please Elles family are doing well, still part of the single market though along with the exchange rate.


----------



## Calvine

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4849192/Foreign-Office-s-mouser-bureau-cats-boast-about.html
Even the cat at no. 10 is doing a lousy job. I guess he'll get the boot too when TM goes. (I blame it all on Brexit.)


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Norway is part of schengen too. Looks like cherry picking outside the Eu is an option after all. I really haven't heard any leave voters wanting to pick out parts of it though. Remainers yes, but not leavers. We were told before the referendum it was all or nothing and the Eu won't be helpful as they'll need to look after their own interests if we left.
> .


Not the impression many were given though. Yes you're right about Norway but on EU's, not Norway's terms.

The problem with the UK government is they wanted to cherry pick on their terms such as staying in the single market yet end free movement. The EU have quite rightly said no to this.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Not the impression many were given though. Yes you're right about Norway but on EU's, not Norway's terms.
> 
> The problem with the UK government is they wanted to cherry pick on their terms such as staying in the single market yet end free movement. The EU have quite rightly said no to this.


I think you're right, except the govt don't want to _stay _in the single market (or customs union). They want all the benefits - no tariffs, no quotas, no customs checks or paperwork ('frictionless borders') - but they don't want to have to follow the rules, or be subject to the ECJ that enforces the rules. They want the EU to say that our rules are as good as theirs so we can use ours and they just accept it and wave us through the border like now. They want to be able to limit immigration according to whatever rules they want, and offer EU immigrants to the UK whatever rights they want, whether they're the same as UK residents or not.

And they say that the EU should agree to this because it's best for both of us. And if the EU don't agree it's because they're being inflexible and unimaginative.

What they don't realise - or admit - is that what is best for the EU is not the trade deal, it is protecting the integrity and existence of the EU. There is no choice but for the EU to treat the UK as an outside country, and that's what they'll do. We won't be allowed to be the cosy bestest buddies who get all the benefits with none of what we see as downsides. That's the education that Barnier was talking about yesterday.

And what the govt also don't realise - or admit - is that Brexit is a tremendous opportunity for EU companies to grab as much business from the UK as they possibly can, from farm produce to car production to financial services. Why wouldn't they? They want what is best for themselves, just like we do, and it's a bit rich for us to complain that they're being beastly when that's what business is all about.

(Sorry, that went on a bit! )


----------



## Satori

Jesthar said:


> Others will have voted leave expecting just to leave the EU, not the single market, customs union or any other separate entities/agreements we also happened to be part of.


Why would they have done that? It makes zero sense. Surely anybody who wanted to remain in every EU institution and maintain the status quo in respect of trade, freedom of movement, law etc would just vote remain.

I have have heard this extraordinary claim many times there may be people who actively voted for what has been called a 'soft brexit' but it just can't be true. No rational person could have voted that way. There was simply no reason to do so, no possible advantage to be gained.

The whole 'soft brexit' concept was dreamt up by politicians / liars to muddy the waters and to campaign for a reversal of our democratically expressed will without having to be honest about their reasons. There is no such thing as a soft, hard, well done or medium rare brexit; there is just leaving.

Everybody knows what we voted for. Everybody. The idea that people voted in their millions for just a technical change to the name of our EU membership (whilst remaining in the EU and its institutions in every susbstantial way) is completely preposterous.


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> I have have heard this extraordinary claim many times there may be people who actively voted for what has been called a 'soft brexit' but it just can't be true. No rational person could have voted that way. There was simply no reason to do so, no possible advantage to be gained.


Well people haven't provided credible advantages to leaving point blank. I could think of immediate advantages of retaining things like membership of Euratom and the european arrest warrant scheme amongst others. One of the reasons why it's important the government releases it's impact studies which they are so afraid of doing.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Why would they have done that? It makes zero sense. Surely anybody who wanted to remain in every EU institution and maintain the status quo in respect of trade, freedom of movement, law etc would just vote remain.
> 
> I have have heard this extraordinary claim many times there may be people who actively voted for what has been called a 'soft brexit' but it just can't be true. No rational person could have voted that way. There was simply no reason to do so, no possible advantage to be gained.
> 
> *The whole 'soft brexit' concept was dreamt up by politicians / liars to muddy the waters and to campaign for a reversal of our democratically expressed will without having to be honest about their reasons. There is no such thing as a soft, hard, well done or medium rare brexit; there is just leaving.*
> 
> Everybody knows what we voted for. Everybody. The idea that people voted in their millions for just a technical change to the name of our EU membership (whilst remaining in the EU and its institutions in every susbstantial way) is completely preposterous.


----------



## Elles

People have discussed the positives, opportunity and advantages repeatedly. Of course the future isn't here yet and no other country has left, so we have no facts based on analysis of the past. Whether Remainers or Leavers. Other than the time between the Brexit vote and today. In that the Remainers' projections were proved incorrect.

Trade between the main Eu countries and WTO countries has increased a lot faster than trade between the uk and the main Eu countries. Uk companies trade more outside of the Eu than in it. Analysts suggest that the advantages of the single market have been grossly exaggerated.

Doing a search on 'advantages of Brexit' and trying to take advantage of the opportunities would be a far more useful exercise.

Mr Hannan and yet another false meme:

https://www.conservativehome.com/th...about-the-campaign-that-must-be-debunked.html

Mr Hannan talked about access to the market, not membership, his quote in the meme has been taken out of context.

From a Remainer:

https://medium.com/@jamesforward/a-...d-to-remain-in-the-single-market-85a0778c75a9


----------



## Jesthar

Satori said:


> *Why would they have done that?* It makes zero sense. Surely anybody who wanted to remain in every EU institution and maintain the status quo in respect of trade, freedom of movement, law etc would just vote remain.
> 
> I have have heard this extraordinary claim many times there may be people who actively voted for what has been called a 'soft brexit' but it just can't be true. No rational person could have voted that way. There was simply no reason to do so, no possible advantage to be gained.
> 
> The whole 'soft brexit' concept was dreamt up by politicians / liars to muddy the waters and to campaign for a reversal of our democratically expressed will without having to be honest about their reasons. There is no such thing as a soft, hard, well done or medium rare brexit; there is just leaving.
> 
> Everybody knows what we voted for. Everybody. The idea that people voted in their millions for just a technical change to the name of our EU membership (whilst remaining in the EU and its institutions in every susbstantial way) is completely preposterous.


Because your assumption that everyone knew what they were voting for is incorrect. Do you really think the majority of people knew what the Schengen agreement is, for example? How many will have appreciated the difference between the single market and the customs union? Even I had no idea about the potential air travel issues, and I considered myself more well read than most on the issues. Leaving aside the small fringe cases who admitted to voting leave for a laught or because (for example) they saw a straight banana that morning, how many more were swayed by the 'Take back control' and other patriotic sentiments being freely thrown around, and never gave much thought to all the benefits working together had brought over the last several decades? (PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying you or anyone else here was personally swayed by newspapers, leaflets, TV broadcasts, radio interviews, family, friends, random memes on FaceBook, personal intuition or prejudices, or anything other than their own, exhaustive, independently sourced and verified fact gathering exercises from guaranteed unbiased sources. Thank you.)

TL:DR - your average person does NOT read the manual. Even if it's short and in pictures with nice big type and pointy arrows. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about in this department - it's one of the things that keeps me in a job! Given that any manual that could adequately describe the EU could double as an insomnia cure, it's reasonable to extrapolate that most people won't have bothered doing much, if any, detailed research into the side effects of leaving.


----------



## Elles

People were given the opportunity to vote and they were just as entitled to vote on nothing other than anti Eu sentiment as Remainers were entitled to vote on pro Eu sentiment. I don't doubt that people voted based on one or two issues that affected them personally. That was their prerogative. What was wrong, on both sides, were the manipulations and lies. 

I'd rather someone based their vote on pro 'I like my holidays in France and want to retire to Spain', or anti 'I want to ban live transport, but the Eu view living, sentient beasts as commodities and won't allow it'. Than 'I read the country will collapse' or a sign suggesting there could be more money for the NHS on the side of a bus.

At the very base is the fact that countries exist outside of the Eu. Based on that fact we can then decide for ourselves whether staying in or leaving may be more advantageous and to whom. Better is never better for everyone.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> At the very base is the fact that countries exist outside of the Eu. Based on that fact we can then decide for ourselves whether staying in or leaving may be more advantageous and to whom. Better is never better for everyone.


Better should be better for the majority not a minority. Yet to see anyone explain how it is better. True countries exist outside of the EU but then a lot of countries are making trading conglomerates as they are beneficial for their members. Simple fact is larger population = better trade deals although a multitude of other advantages exist outside trade.



Elles said:


> People were given the opportunity to vote and they were just as entitled to vote on nothing other than anti Eu sentiment as Remainers were entitled to vote on pro Eu sentiment. I don't doubt that people voted based on one or two issues that affected them personally. That was their prerogative. What was wrong, on both sides, were the manipulations and lies.


The blatant lies were all one sided. So called project fear is being proved to be justified, just didn't happen immediately. Then we come back to the simple fact the referendum was non-binding. The government could have addressed many of the issues raised by the referendum without damaging the country. They could inform with facts rather than propaganda so people know the truth.

People have a responsibility when voting for society as a whole.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Yet to see anyone explain how it is better.


(Sounding a bit like a cracked record, I know, but ...) No foreigners telling us what to do. Priceless, for some, like IDS, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Bone, Redwood, Johnson ...


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> And why was that? It wasn't because of Brexit, can't have been, impossible in fact. We won't know what effect Brexit has on the value of the pound until 2019 at the earliest and more likely 2020/21.
> 
> Don't confuse Brexit with speculation


So explain why we're the only major economy who's economy is tanking? Growth is half that of EU & we're the worse performing economy of the G7. Is it purely down to the tories incompetent handling of the economy or is it due brexit? Or a combination of the two as brexit is their baby.

Even Greece's economy is now growing faster than the UK. http://uk.businessinsider.com/greek-economy-now-growing-faster-than-the-uk-2017-9?r=US&IR=T

Project fear is now reality. Wake up Dr Pepper.



MiffyMoo said:


> When even your beloved Messiah puts it in his manifesto, you really have to question your statement. Let's not look too closely at his current u turn on it, given he previously sacked 3 shadow ministers for suggesting we stay in


Why do I have to question my statement? I have criticised (more than once on here) my beloved messiah & labours stance on leaving the single market. As someone who has been pretty consistent his entire parliamentary career in his rejection of neoliberalism I can see why Corbyn wants out, he sees the EU & the single market as a force that. Unfortunately, it will be neoliberalism on steroids given who's in charge.

(By the way, if any MP is my Messiah it has to be this one  )


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> So explain why we're the only major economy who's economy is tanking? Growth is half that of EU & we're the worse performing economy of the G7. Is it purely down to the tories incompetent handling of the economy or is it due brexit? Or a combination of the two as brexit is their baby.
> 
> Even Greece's economy is now growing faster than the UK. http://uk.businessinsider.com/greek-economy-now-growing-faster-than-the-uk-2017-9?r=US&IR=T
> 
> Project fear is now reality. Wake up Dr Pepper.
> 
> Why do I have to question my statement? I have criticised (more than once on here) my beloved messiah & labours stance on leaving the single market. As someone who has been pretty consistent his entire parliamentary career in his rejection of neoliberalism I can see why Corbyn wants out, he sees the EU & the single market as a force that. Unfortunately, it will be neoliberalism on steroids given who's in charge.
> 
> (By the way, if any MP is my Messiah it has to be this one  )


It's due to the uncertainty of what Brexit might be and the bickering between the UK and EU (yes they are as bad as each other). It won't be until Brexit actually happens that we will know how the pound and economy cope.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> It's due to the uncertainty of what Brexit might be and the bickering between the UK and EU (yes they are as bad as each other). It won't be until Brexit actually happens that we will know how the pound and economy cope.


We already know.. worse off than if we stayed in the EU and not for only economic reasons. Wishful thinking and slogans don't change that.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...es-cambridge-analytica-what-role-brexit-trump


Cambridge Analytica launched a campaign of misinformation targeting swing voters. Its harder to prove the impact of course ( I believe its still being investigated. http://uk.businessinsider.com/leave-eu-brexit-creepy-facebook-cambridge-analytica-2017-2?r=US&IR=T )

So are you not concerned that outside forces are trying to hijack our democracy? Are you not concerned the worst people on the planet are that desperate for us to leave the EU? You don't think all those manufactured lies, the deception, dark money, Russia, astroturfing, AI - along with Cambridge Analytica had any baring on the result ? 




































Elles said:


> No, I hadn't noticed. I accept what people are saying are advantages and potential opportunities.
> 
> Neither of your links talk about staying in the single market?
> @Goblin


Why did vote leave have this on their website then?


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair I didn't vote for the mess Brexit is at the moment either!


Jonathan Pie sums the shambles up brilliantly:Hilarious

(CAUTION - RUDE WORDS)


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 Switzerland aren't in the single market, so your meme doesn't mention staying in the single market either.


----------



## Elles

Businesses will still have access to businesses in Europe and vice versa, we're leaving the Eu, not floating off into space.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> @noushka05 Switzerland aren't in the single market, so your meme doesn't mention staying in the single market either.


But they do have_ ACCESS_ to the Single Market (like the meme says  ), for all industries except their banking sector:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36270203

Part of this access agreement is that they allow free movement of people, and Norway are part of the Schengen agreement anyway. So it is unlikely access to the Single Market will be granted to the UK without that condition applying. Which logically means if hard Brexit is insisted on complete with no freedom of movement, no access to the Single Market is the most likely outcome.



Elles said:


> Businesses will still have access to businesses in Europe and vice versa, we're leaving the Eu, not floating off into space.


Yes, but getting to them will be harder, longer and more complicated. Rather than, say, simply strolling across a bridge to do business on a different shore, there is a strong chance we'll end up with the red tape equivalent of the Total Wipeout course to negotiate instead - unless something really spectacular happens in the negotiations (not the best odds on that judging from the progress so far).

That's not scaremongering, that's just knowing the history of what trade _used _to be like before free trade and single markets/customs unions existed. The EU won't mind if we go back to those days, of course, it'll only mainly hurt us, not them. They have plenty of other places to acquire most of the goods they need (complete with trade agreements), so why wouldn't they typically chose the path of least resistance? I know I would. Add in that we simply do not have the worldwide clout we used to have, or the Empire, and I think it should be clear why people have concerns.


----------



## Elles

Europeans never bought from us as a small company anyway. They're loyal to their own countries and with the strong pound, everything was cheaper for them at home.

Since the weaker pound and the uncertainty over Brexit, Europeans are buying our products, enabling us to build a reputation for reliability and quality. If they continue to buy after Brexit great, if they don't, well back to normal. We'll carry on with sales at home in the uk and to places like Australia and have less money again.

I doubt we're the only small British company grabbing the opportunity while we can and investing the extra into a small expansion and diversification for the future.

Instead of moaning, people should be looking at what they can do about it, grasping any opportunity as it arises and preparing. The big guns won't fail anyway, whatever happens. Unemployment is down, interest rates haven't increased yet, house prices are holding, wages slowly increasing and TM is talking about removing the freeze on the public pay sector. 

The stronger Euro is down to the Eu. They stopped printing money and keeping it artificially low. Pre Brexit it was generally accepted that the Euro was too low and sterling too high. Maybe brexit gave the Eu a kick up the backside they needed and Europe too will benefit. Instead of punishing Britain for leaving, which would do none of us any good, maybe they'll make it more attractive for other countries to stay.

All ifs, buts and maybes of course. We'll have to see.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> @noushka05 Switzerland aren't in the single market, so your meme doesn't mention staying in the single market either.


https://www.thelocal.se/20130709/48952



Elles said:


> We'll carry on with sales at home in the uk and to places like Australia and have less money again.


Have you checked the impact of losing the Mutual Recognition Agreement between the EU and Australia out of interest? Not just single market the UK is leaving but all the other trade related agreements across the world.


----------



## Elles

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40555634

I'm not reading a bunch of woe is me any more. It's starting to drag me down when nothing's actually happened.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Europeans never bought from us as a small company anyway. They're loyal to their own countries and with the strong pound, everything was cheaper for them at home.
> 
> Since the weaker pound and the uncertainty over Brexit, Europeans are buying our products, enabling us to build a reputation for reliability and quality. If they continue to buy after Brexit great, if they don't, well back to normal. We'll carry on with sales at home in the uk and to places like Australia and have less money again.
> 
> I doubt we're the only small British company grabbing the opportunity while we can and investing the extra into a small expansion and diversification for the future.
> *
> Instead of moaning, people should be looking at what they can do about it, grasping any opportunity as it arises and preparing. The big guns won't fail anyway, whatever happens. Unemployment is down, interest rates haven't increased yet, house prices are holding, wages slowly increasing and TM is talking about removing the freeze on the public pay sector. *
> 
> The stronger Euro is down to the Eu. They stopped printing money and keeping it artificially low. Pre Brexit it was generally accepted that the Euro was too low and sterling too high. Maybe brexit gave the Eu a kick up the backside they needed and Europe too will benefit. Instead of punishing Britain for leaving, which would do none of us any good, maybe they'll make it more attractive for other countries to stay.
> 
> All ifs, buts and maybes of course. We'll have to see.


We'll have less opportunites - one of the _many _reasons people are 'moaning'.

Just picking up on a few of your points. Our GDP is the weakest in the EU - wages are not keeping up with inflation caused by brexit - they are falling in real terms- we are now level with Greece.












And heres how the government massaged down unemployment with zero hours contracts. https://www.channel4.com/news/factc...-contracts-has-quadrupled-since-records-began










I dont think any of the other EU countries will want to leave the EU now they've seen the mess we've got ourselves into. We're serving as a cautionary warning I should imagine. And thats the only good thing to come out of the result that I can see.


----------



## Elles

There are about 1 million Brits living across the whole of Europe, yet nearly 3 million Europeans living in just the Uk. Maybe the wonderful Eu could unilaterally offer Brits in the Eu the right to stay and give the companies they're working for peace of mind. Guarantee the rights of 1m individuals who didn't vote to leave the Eu and security for the European companies who employ them.


----------



## noushka05

WOW this is a must read. Huge respect to this chap, a now 'ex' tory member who voted for brexit. His honesty is admirable, what a star. https://peterreynolds.wordpress.com/2017/08/06/has-there-ever-been-a-worse-uk-government-than-this/

*Has There Ever Been A Worse UK Government Than This?*

*







*

I am a member of the Conservative Party - just. My annual subscription is due and I feel physically sick at the prospect of doing anything that is supportive of the appalling collection of third and fourth rates that presently sit round the cabinet table.
*
The Conservative Party has Lost Its Way. We Need To Get Back To Being Tories*.
We need to re-focus on our fundamental principles: individual liberty, individual responsibility, small government, free markets, evidence-based policy and a benevolent, responsible, one-nation approach.

Let's face it, we've had a privileged toff, little more than a ponce on the nation, who from his position of wealth found it very easy to impose austerity on people with whom he was totally out-of-touch. Throughout his political career he vacillated and dithered on policy because he has no principles except self-advancement. Now we have some fake Tory, an authoritarian bureaucrat with big government, nanny state instincts, daughter of a high Anglican priest stuck in some 195os delusion of what Britain is today.



Meanwhile, a socialist activist but a man with integrity, courage and vision has stolen our place. Jeremy Corbyn provides more leadership in the UK than the entire Conservative cabinet put together. He was magnificent at Glastonbury, seizing the hearts and minds of not just the young but the young at heart - seizing the future! Where is the Tory alternative? There is great excitement, belief and enthusiasm for Brexit, 17.4 million people voted for it! Where is the Conservative spokesperson passionately declaiming this? The party has been hijacked by Remainers, determined to undermine the referendum result, interested only in the ambitions and concerns of the Westminster Elite.

When I try to talk to my MP, Sir Oliver Letwin, formerly number three in Cameron's cabinet, although I am talking to someone a few months younger than me, I feel I am talking to my father's generation - and to someone particularly old-fashioned and out-of-touch. My local Conservative Party branch, charming though many of the members are, is like an episode of Last of the Summer Wine, as disconnected from the rest of the UK as Cameron is from anyone on less than £250k per annum. At 59, I'm a youngster.

It's outrageous really that my party has got itself into such a state with years of weak opposition, popular support for non-socialist policies and, until Corbyn, an absence of effective alternative leadership. It's nothing less than disastrous and unless we change now we are doomed. The membership is old and dying. If we don't get a grip within five years we will be gone forever.

*A Perfect Storm Of Failure, Corruption And Arrogance.*
I've been fascinated by and active in politics since the late 1970s. Never in my lifetime have I seen such a combination of mistakes and scandalous cock-ups. Brexit has been sabotaged by dithering and delay - and I'm quite ready to believe this is a calculated deceit. With the BBC, the bankers and the Twitterati renewing Project Fear on a daily basis, is it any wonder that the going is tough? Cameron resigned because he said we needed a Leave supporter to take charge but instead we have a Remainer, one of the worst performing government ministers ever. How, after six years of persistent failure at the Home Office, she became PM is beyond belief but even more incredible is that after her terrible election performance she is still in No. 10. It is ridiculous!

The failures are all too easy to see but let's list them to be certain that the huge scale of this crisis is understood.

*Brexit* - Total failure to plan, perhaps deliberately, best illustrated by the absurd spectacle, just last month, of the Home Office commissioning analysis of the economic and social contributions and costs of EU citizens in Britain. Surely something that should have been done years ago? Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have both proved themselves to be lacking in courage and leadership skills. The bumptious fool Dr Liam Fox, who does seem to stick to his principles on Brexit, shames us by his foreign adventures, recently praising the murdering thug President Duterte of the Philippines as having 'shared values' with Britain.

*NHS* - Persistent deceit from ministers, including the utterly in-credible Jeremy Hunt, about how much money in real terms the health service is receiving. Scandalous failure to keep multiple promises about mental health having parity with physical health

*Democracy* - The UK's system of government is now a joke compared to other modern democracies. Our electoral system is primitive. Conservative and Labour parties conspire to keep the system as it is because it keeps them both in power. It is obvious that we should be moving towards some form of proportional representation, online voting and a radical shake-up of the House of Lords. MPs also need to be much more accountable. The terrible murder of Jo Cox has let too many of them off the hook that the expenses scandal put them on. Recently they have been whining about the abuse they get online. In general they deserve it for the terrible job they are doing. Also, they get protection from the police for such abuse. The police are useless when it's a member of the public under attack. We need a job description for MPs, rights for constituents and a complaints procedure with teeth.

*Social policy* - I am ashamed at how Conservative ministers in reality are indistinguishable from the populist caricature of the 'arrogant, uncaring, effing Tories'. The Grenfell Tower tragedy encapsulates everything that is wrong with the high-handed view that they take of the people who pay their wages.

*Justice* - After food, shelter and health what is more important than justice? The destruction of legal aid is one of the most dreadful developments in my lifetime. All governments delight in making more and more law but what use is it if it cannot be enforced? There is no justice if it is not available to everyone. I am delighted at the Supreme Court's ruling that makes legal aid available once again for employment tribunals Without it employment law was literally useless and thousands have been deprived of their rights. And for his disastrous, destructive, incompetent and thoroughly nasty attitude the man who defines injustice in modern Britain is Chris Grayling. No other minster has more disgraced our party. He is unfit to be in government and why he remains anywhere near ministerial office is unbelievable. No one individual better epitomises the nasty, arrogant, incompetent Tory.

*Prisons* - There is no greater truth than that in a free society we are defined by how we treat those we send to jail. This is a terrible condemnation of Britain. Our prison system is a production line for turning petty criminals into alienated, aggressive, violent repeat offenders. There is no one who deserves the additional punishments we impose on top of deprivation of liberty. I would make an exception for Chris Grayling who really should be made to experience a taste of his own medicine. The Netherlands is closing prisons because it doesn't send enough people to jail. We should swallow our pride and copy their system exactly.

*Technology* - As the nation that has led the world in virtually all new technologies, we are now falling a long way behind. The government has failed miserably to give enough priority to high speed internet. We will never catch up now and our children and our businesses are forever disadvantaged. Progress is hampered in development of new energy sources, transport and infrastructure by bureaucracy, endless bickering between special interest groups and weak strategic management. The EU has magnified all these problems and prevented progress in GM foods and other technologies that are essential to our future.

*Transport* - With Chris Grayling at the helm and the farce that is HS2, there is no hope for a sensible transport strategy. I simply don't buy the argument that a slightly faster journey time between north and south will do anything to create a better future. Train fares are ludicrously high. The conditions commuters are expected to travel under are ridiculous. The Southern Rail scandal is a microcosm of government incompetence and inaction. It should have been re-nationalised at least a year ago and there should be massive fines and penalties on those responsible for the chaos, including individuals. I see no conflict with Conservative principles in re-nationalising the whole network. The mess that has prevailed since privatisation could not be any worse and compare us with railway networks and service on the continent for a true picture of our national shame and decay.

*Environment* - Technology and transport converge with environmental policy and this is a difficult, challenging area of policy. What we need is strong leadership - no, not the empty claims of Mrs May but the real leadership of Mrs Thatcher. Even the despicable Tony Blair showed more leadership than we have had from any current Conservative politician. We need to take bold decisions and act on them. Ecology and controlling pollution must be a real priority but we must not be distracted by the greeny loons and their endless prevarication and delays. I have no objection to fracking as long as it is strictly regulated and in recent visits to Ireland I have seen how forests of wind turbines do not destroy wonderful countryside and can have their own beauty, just as we now revere Victorian aqueducts and civil engineering. Most of all though we should racing ahead with tidal power. As an island it has to be our future and its potential is unlimited.

*Northern Ireland* - I hope one of the by-products of Brexit will be a united Ireland. There is no longer a real majority of unionists in the six counties and it only ever existed because of immigrants from Scotland. The UK's shameful history in Ireland places a heavy obligation on us. We are one and the same people and the damage inflicted by the English Parliament on our neighbours must be put right. We are far closer to the Irish than we are to the French, the Dutch or the Belgians. As independent nations, with Ulster properly restored, we could be closer than ever and if Ireland wishes to remain in the EU, we should respect that.

*Drugs Policy* - No policy better demonstrates the incompetence, prejudice, cowardice and corruption of government ministers from all parties. Deaths from drug overdose have reached an all time high. There has been an explosion in highly toxic new psychoactive substances and the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016 has increased harms, deaths, associated crime and potency, exactly as was predicted, warnings the government chose to ignore. The government has refused to consider or take any expert advice on introducing legal access to medical cannabis, something that virtually all other modern democracies are moving forward on. Its continuing policy on cannabis defies scientific evidence and real-life experience from places where reform has been implemented. It also supports the criminal market, encourages street dealing, dangerous hidden cannabis farms and the production of poor quality, low-CBD, so-called 'skunk' cannabis.

*Defence* - A catalogue of cock-ups, dullards in charge and weak, indecisive leadership. In my view we should cancel the renewal of Trident and spend more on conventional weapons and defence measures which we may actually have to use. We should retain some battlefield nuclear weapons but invest more in our soldiers and their technology. We should also look after them far better when they leave the service

*Foreign Affairs* - The UK is the world superpower in 'soft power'. Our culture, language, history give us more influence than any other nation and we should be proud to exercise it. We should have the courage to stand for our principles, independently of the USA and Europe. The £12 billion we give in international aid is far too much when there is real poverty at home but even if we halved the present budget we would still lead the world. We are responsible for the injustice perpetrated on the Palestinian people when we facilitated the seizure of their land in the 1940s. We should be standing up to Israel which has become an out-of-control monster. We created it and we must take responsibility for bringing it to order and helping it to live alongside its neighbours respectfully. Its conduct is unacceptable and we should be pursuing war crimes prosecutions

*Housing* - The housing crisis needs a courageous, radical solution, not the pathetic, sticking plaster gimmicks and gestures that is all we have had for 50 years. Massive investment in social housing would create jobs and boost the economy all round. We shouldn't hesitate. We shouldn't fear a dramatic fall in house prices caused by massive extra supply. We have to get real and government must stop shirking its responsibility for a strategic role that only it can fill.

I have not yet decided whether I shall renew my membership. I'm not even sure if there is any future in the UK for me. Brexit was a great opportunity which has been sabotaged, perhaps fatally. Britain may well become a tourist destination, fascinating for the way such a small nation led the world for centuries. We are being led by weak, ineffectual, self-serving, out-of-touch and out-of date politicians. As the Conservative Party is dying, it is dragging Britain down with it.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> WOW this is a must read. Huge respect to this chap, a now 'ex' tory member who voted for brexit. His honesty is admirable, what a star. https://peterreynolds.wordpress.com/2017/08/06/has-there-ever-been-a-worse-uk-government-than-this/
> 
> *Has There Ever Been A Worse UK Government Than This?*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> I am a member of the Conservative Party - just. My annual subscription is due and I feel physically sick at the prospect of doing anything that is supportive of the appalling collection of third and fourth rates that presently sit round the cabinet table.
> *
> The Conservative Party has Lost Its Way. We Need To Get Back To Being Tories*.
> We need to re-focus on our fundamental principles: individual liberty, individual responsibility, small government, free markets, evidence-based policy and a benevolent, responsible, one-nation approach.
> 
> Let's face it, we've had a privileged toff, little more than a ponce on the nation, who from his position of wealth found it very easy to impose austerity on people with whom he was totally out-of-touch. Throughout his political career he vacillated and dithered on policy because he has no principles except self-advancement. Now we have some fake Tory, an authoritarian bureaucrat with big government, nanny state instincts, daughter of a high Anglican priest stuck in some 195os delusion of what Britain is today.
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, a socialist activist but a man with integrity, courage and vision has stolen our place. Jeremy Corbyn provides more leadership in the UK than the entire Conservative cabinet put together. He was magnificent at Glastonbury, seizing the hearts and minds of not just the young but the young at heart - seizing the future! Where is the Tory alternative? There is great excitement, belief and enthusiasm for Brexit, 17.4 million people voted for it! Where is the Conservative spokesperson passionately declaiming this? The party has been hijacked by Remainers, determined to undermine the referendum result, interested only in the ambitions and concerns of the Westminster Elite.
> 
> When I try to talk to my MP, Sir Oliver Letwin, formerly number three in Cameron's cabinet, although I am talking to someone a few months younger than me, I feel I am talking to my father's generation - and to someone particularly old-fashioned and out-of-touch. My local Conservative Party branch, charming though many of the members are, is like an episode of Last of the Summer Wine, as disconnected from the rest of the UK as Cameron is from anyone on less than £250k per annum. At 59, I'm a youngster.
> 
> It's outrageous really that my party has got itself into such a state with years of weak opposition, popular support for non-socialist policies and, until Corbyn, an absence of effective alternative leadership. It's nothing less than disastrous and unless we change now we are doomed. The membership is old and dying. If we don't get a grip within five years we will be gone forever.
> 
> *A Perfect Storm Of Failure, Corruption And Arrogance.*
> I've been fascinated by and active in politics since the late 1970s. Never in my lifetime have I seen such a combination of mistakes and scandalous cock-ups. Brexit has been sabotaged by dithering and delay - and I'm quite ready to believe this is a calculated deceit. With the BBC, the bankers and the Twitterati renewing Project Fear on a daily basis, is it any wonder that the going is tough? Cameron resigned because he said we needed a Leave supporter to take charge but instead we have a Remainer, one of the worst performing government ministers ever. How, after six years of persistent failure at the Home Office, she became PM is beyond belief but even more incredible is that after her terrible election performance she is still in No. 10. It is ridiculous!
> 
> The failures are all too easy to see but let's list them to be certain that the huge scale of this crisis is understood.
> 
> *Brexit* - Total failure to plan, perhaps deliberately, best illustrated by the absurd spectacle, just last month, of the Home Office commissioning analysis of the economic and social contributions and costs of EU citizens in Britain. Surely something that should have been done years ago? Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have both proved themselves to be lacking in courage and leadership skills. The bumptious fool Dr Liam Fox, who does seem to stick to his principles on Brexit, shames us by his foreign adventures, recently praising the murdering thug President Duterte of the Philippines as having 'shared values' with Britain.
> 
> *NHS* - Persistent deceit from ministers, including the utterly in-credible Jeremy Hunt, about how much money in real terms the health service is receiving. Scandalous failure to keep multiple promises about mental health having parity with physical health
> 
> *Democracy* - The UK's system of government is now a joke compared to other modern democracies. Our electoral system is primitive. Conservative and Labour parties conspire to keep the system as it is because it keeps them both in power. It is obvious that we should be moving towards some form of proportional representation, online voting and a radical shake-up of the House of Lords. MPs also need to be much more accountable. The terrible murder of Jo Cox has let too many of them off the hook that the expenses scandal put them on. Recently they have been whining about the abuse they get online. In general they deserve it for the terrible job they are doing. Also, they get protection from the police for such abuse. The police are useless when it's a member of the public under attack. We need a job description for MPs, rights for constituents and a complaints procedure with teeth.
> 
> *Social policy* - I am ashamed at how Conservative ministers in reality are indistinguishable from the populist caricature of the 'arrogant, uncaring, effing Tories'. The Grenfell Tower tragedy encapsulates everything that is wrong with the high-handed view that they take of the people who pay their wages.
> 
> *Justice* - After food, shelter and health what is more important than justice? The destruction of legal aid is one of the most dreadful developments in my lifetime. All governments delight in making more and more law but what use is it if it cannot be enforced? There is no justice if it is not available to everyone. I am delighted at the Supreme Court's ruling that makes legal aid available once again for employment tribunals Without it employment law was literally useless and thousands have been deprived of their rights. And for his disastrous, destructive, incompetent and thoroughly nasty attitude the man who defines injustice in modern Britain is Chris Grayling. No other minster has more disgraced our party. He is unfit to be in government and why he remains anywhere near ministerial office is unbelievable. No one individual better epitomises the nasty, arrogant, incompetent Tory.
> 
> *Prisons* - There is no greater truth than that in a free society we are defined by how we treat those we send to jail. This is a terrible condemnation of Britain. Our prison system is a production line for turning petty criminals into alienated, aggressive, violent repeat offenders. There is no one who deserves the additional punishments we impose on top of deprivation of liberty. I would make an exception for Chris Grayling who really should be made to experience a taste of his own medicine. The Netherlands is closing prisons because it doesn't send enough people to jail. We should swallow our pride and copy their system exactly.
> 
> *Technology* - As the nation that has led the world in virtually all new technologies, we are now falling a long way behind. The government has failed miserably to give enough priority to high speed internet. We will never catch up now and our children and our businesses are forever disadvantaged. Progress is hampered in development of new energy sources, transport and infrastructure by bureaucracy, endless bickering between special interest groups and weak strategic management. The EU has magnified all these problems and prevented progress in GM foods and other technologies that are essential to our future.
> 
> *Transport* - With Chris Grayling at the helm and the farce that is HS2, there is no hope for a sensible transport strategy. I simply don't buy the argument that a slightly faster journey time between north and south will do anything to create a better future. Train fares are ludicrously high. The conditions commuters are expected to travel under are ridiculous. The Southern Rail scandal is a microcosm of government incompetence and inaction. It should have been re-nationalised at least a year ago and there should be massive fines and penalties on those responsible for the chaos, including individuals. I see no conflict with Conservative principles in re-nationalising the whole network. The mess that has prevailed since privatisation could not be any worse and compare us with railway networks and service on the continent for a true picture of our national shame and decay.
> 
> *Environment* - Technology and transport converge with environmental policy and this is a difficult, challenging area of policy. What we need is strong leadership - no, not the empty claims of Mrs May but the real leadership of Mrs Thatcher. Even the despicable Tony Blair showed more leadership than we have had from any current Conservative politician. We need to take bold decisions and act on them. Ecology and controlling pollution must be a real priority but we must not be distracted by the greeny loons and their endless prevarication and delays. I have no objection to fracking as long as it is strictly regulated and in recent visits to Ireland I have seen how forests of wind turbines do not destroy wonderful countryside and can have their own beauty, just as we now revere Victorian aqueducts and civil engineering. Most of all though we should racing ahead with tidal power. As an island it has to be our future and its potential is unlimited.
> 
> *Northern Ireland* - I hope one of the by-products of Brexit will be a united Ireland. There is no longer a real majority of unionists in the six counties and it only ever existed because of immigrants from Scotland. The UK's shameful history in Ireland places a heavy obligation on us. We are one and the same people and the damage inflicted by the English Parliament on our neighbours must be put right. We are far closer to the Irish than we are to the French, the Dutch or the Belgians. As independent nations, with Ulster properly restored, we could be closer than ever and if Ireland wishes to remain in the EU, we should respect that.
> 
> *Drugs Policy* - No policy better demonstrates the incompetence, prejudice, cowardice and corruption of government ministers from all parties. Deaths from drug overdose have reached an all time high. There has been an explosion in highly toxic new psychoactive substances and the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016 has increased harms, deaths, associated crime and potency, exactly as was predicted, warnings the government chose to ignore. The government has refused to consider or take any expert advice on introducing legal access to medical cannabis, something that virtually all other modern democracies are moving forward on. Its continuing policy on cannabis defies scientific evidence and real-life experience from places where reform has been implemented. It also supports the criminal market, encourages street dealing, dangerous hidden cannabis farms and the production of poor quality, low-CBD, so-called 'skunk' cannabis.
> 
> *Defence* - A catalogue of cock-ups, dullards in charge and weak, indecisive leadership. In my view we should cancel the renewal of Trident and spend more on conventional weapons and defence measures which we may actually have to use. We should retain some battlefield nuclear weapons but invest more in our soldiers and their technology. We should also look after them far better when they leave the service
> 
> *Foreign Affairs* - The UK is the world superpower in 'soft power'. Our culture, language, history give us more influence than any other nation and we should be proud to exercise it. We should have the courage to stand for our principles, independently of the USA and Europe. The £12 billion we give in international aid is far too much when there is real poverty at home but even if we halved the present budget we would still lead the world. We are responsible for the injustice perpetrated on the Palestinian people when we facilitated the seizure of their land in the 1940s. We should be standing up to Israel which has become an out-of-control monster. We created it and we must take responsibility for bringing it to order and helping it to live alongside its neighbours respectfully. Its conduct is unacceptable and we should be pursuing war crimes prosecutions
> 
> *Housing* - The housing crisis needs a courageous, radical solution, not the pathetic, sticking plaster gimmicks and gestures that is all we have had for 50 years. Massive investment in social housing would create jobs and boost the economy all round. We shouldn't hesitate. We shouldn't fear a dramatic fall in house prices caused by massive extra supply. We have to get real and government must stop shirking its responsibility for a strategic role that only it can fill.
> 
> I have not yet decided whether I shall renew my membership. I'm not even sure if there is any future in the UK for me. Brexit was a great opportunity which has been sabotaged, perhaps fatally. Britain may well become a tourist destination, fascinating for the way such a small nation led the world for centuries. We are being led by weak, ineffectual, self-serving, out-of-touch and out-of date politicians. As the Conservative Party is dying, it is dragging Britain down with it.


You do know you can just post the link, rather than taking up a whole page pasting the info that we can access within the link


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> You do know you can just post the link, rather than taking up a whole page pasting the info that we can access within the link


Oops forum police on patrol I suspect some people don't bother opening links so Im always happy to oblige.

Here is Peters fantastic resignation letter. I'll c&p it for you lol https://peterreynolds.wordpress.com/2017/08/31/my-resignation-from-the-conservative-party/

*My Resignation From The Conservative Party.*

Dear Chris,

After the disastrous handling of the EU referendum result, the ludicrous decision to appoint one of the most incompetent and out-of-touch ministers as prime minister and her farcical election performance, I have been wrestling for some time as to whether to renew my membership. The Conservative Party is now far divorced from its fundamental principles of liberty and small government and Mrs May is an authoritarian bigot stuck in some 1950s delusion of what Britain is today.

Following her ridiculous announcement last night that she intends to stay on as leader I am now tendering my resignation forthwith. She has no mandate, no respect and in my view is held in utter contempt throughout the country. It is also self-evident that all other minsters are too weak, cowardly and neurotic about their own jobs to do anything to stop her.

Mrs May failed consistently over six years at the Home Office. She is a Remainer and should never have been permitted to lead the party or the country after the referendum result. Mrs May and all ministers failed entirely to plan for a leave vote and they have dithered, waffled, dodged and tripped up again and again, achieving absolutely nothing in the period since the result.

Brexit was a huge opportunity for the UK but the Conservative Party has wrecked it and damaged Britain irreparably in the process. If I had my way Mrs May would be led in chains out of Downing Street and placed in stocks in Parliament Square to endure the humiliation she so richly deserves.

I refer you to my article 'Has There Ever Been A Worse UK Government Than This?' which has produced the biggest response to anything I have ever written about politics in more than 30 years of journalism. It well sums up the tragic and diminished state in which she leaves our country.

Yours sincerely,

Peter Reynolds


----------



## Elles

I've read a little of it and he's saying nothing I haven't been saying from the get go. We needed a government that wanted to leave the Eu to ask the country permission before we did it. Not a government that wanted to stay in and thought they'd get a Remain vote, they badly underestimated feeling in their own country that they were supposed to represent.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40555634
> 
> I'm not reading a bunch of woe is me any more. It's starting to drag me down when nothing's actually happened.


Ignoring important details I see as they are inconvenient. Trade deal with India is also on the cards... a major requirement for both is relaxation of visa requirements. Considering immigration was a reason many people voted for brexit...

Any trade deal will need to be negotiated after we leave.. a vacuum will exist for a period. That's assuming terms can actually be agreed. Negotiations don't seem to be this government's speciality.


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Im more worried about the nutcase in korea then I am about brexit


You should look at that unhinged lunatic in the USA's twitter feed - he has done nothing but relentlessly provoke said nutcase, like poking a wasps nest with a stick. Experts warned Trump would drag us into a nuclear Armageddon - yet still millions voted for him



Elles said:


> I've read a little of it and he's saying nothing I haven't been saying from the get go. We needed a government that wanted to leave the Eu to ask the country permission before we did it. Not a government that wanted to stay in and thought they'd get a Remain vote, they badly underestimated feeling in their own country that they were supposed to represent.


Peter believes this shambles of a government has not only wrecked brexit but irreparably damaged this country - I haven't noticed you say anything along these lines Elles.


----------



## noushka05

Thank God - labour have confirmed they will vote against the EU withdrawal bill next week. But are there any principled tories ?


----------



## rona

Peter Reynolds. The man who jumps from one political party to another in the hope of getting power and influence. He's only been a "Tory" for one year 
Seems he's not managed it yet again and is throwing his toys out of his pram


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Peter Reynolds. The man who jumps from one political party to another in the hope of getting power and influence. He's only been a "Tory" for one year
> Seems he's not managed it yet again and is throwing his toys out of his pram


Instead of doing your usual character assassination, why not seek disprove his points? Plenty of tories are totally disillusion with the party, you only need to open your eyes see that. I've seen countless people on social media saying they can no longer support the party.

Here's lifelong tory Matthew Parris so sick of the tories hes considering voting labour - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ory-single-market-customs-union-a7915081.html
*Lifelong Tory Matthew Parris says he would consider voting Labour following 'dramatic' Brexit shift*
The commentator called Labour's decision to back the single market and customs union 'brave'

He's ashamed to be conservative.


----------



## rona

Another little gem from the man who's opinion seems to matter to some

https://peterreynolds.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/size-0-the-politically-incorrect-truth/
_ "Homosexuality is a perversion from the norm and gay culture has been allowed virtually to extinguish heterosexual influence in the fashion industry."_
_
And that was said by him in his defence against claims he was homophobic _


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Another little gem from the man who's opinion seems to matter to some
> 
> https://peterreynolds.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/size-0-the-politically-incorrect-truth/
> _ "Homosexuality is a perversion from the norm and gay culture has been allowed virtually to extinguish heterosexual influence in the fashion industry."
> 
> And that was said by him in his defence against claims he was homophobic _


You can agree with someone on one thing & strongly disagree with them on another, you know.


----------



## noushka05

This is great by News Thump:Hilarious. Satire or real news? Its hard to tell these days with our shambolic government lol
*
UK Brexit team furious as EU threatens to *
*keep British people dangerously well-informed *http://newsthump.com/2017/09/04/uk-...keep-british-people-dangerously-well-informed*/*
*

Theresa May and David Davis have today criticised the EU for attempting to influence the British voting public by keeping them dangerously well-informed about the Brexit process.*

Speaking to reporters in Downing Street, the prime minister criticised the EU's chief negotiator Michel Barnier.

She claimed Barnier's threat to keep the British people up to speed with how Brexit negotiations are going, and to ensure they are educated about the implications of any deal eventually reached, is an affront to democracy.

May explained, "As we've said all along, we don't want anyone who can actually vote to have even the faintest idea about what is going on behind closed doors in our negotiations with the EU, because that would be very stupid indeed.

"We want everything done in secret, free from media scrutiny and the sort of criticism that could lead voters to think we might not be doing such a bang-up job.

"We have promised the country a deal that is willfully unrealistic, so we need these two years of nothing whatsoever being said about it to ensure we give the people time to forget what we promised them."

An EU spokesperson said, "There are 27 countries on our side that need to agree on the terms of the Brexit deal, with each country having to sell the deal to their own voters - but sure, if she wants to try and keep the British people in the dark during the whole thing, then good luck to her.

"I've seen your newspapers; I'm sure that soon enough you'll all be convinced that being told absolutely nothing is the best thing for you


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> You can agree with someone on one thing & strongly disagree with them on another, you know.


Totally agree.

You wouldn't believe it though; some folks on here though have suggested (for example) that anyone who votes Tory must somehow be supportive of all of their policies, such as hunting act repeal etc... Totally ridiculous I know. It is comforting to hear that you wouldn't endorse that kind of thinking.


----------



## Elles

Satori said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> You wouldn't believe it though; some folks on here though have suggested (for example) that anyone who votes Tory must somehow be supportive of all of their policies, such as hunting act repeal etc... Totally ridiculous I know. It is comforting to hear that you wouldn't endorse that kind of thinking.


Agree too. I said I read a little, not all of what that chap was saying in his linked letter and agreed with him that Brexit needed a government who wanted to leave and had a plan in order to fully utilise the opportunity they'd been given. There was too much for me to read just before I did the horses and took my dog to the vet. He also said Brexit was a great opportunity. Which I also agree with. Now I've read his usual MO, thanks @rona I'll not bother reading the rest and pay him no mind.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> You wouldn't believe it though; some folks on here though have suggested (for example) that anyone who votes Tory must somehow be supportive of all of their policies, such as hunting act repeal etc... Totally ridiculous I know. It is comforting to hear that you wouldn't endorse that kind of thinking.


Not at all, I know some Tory MPs strongly oppose hunting. But when voting a political party (or a politician like, say, Trump) its important to be informed on what they stand for. We know the tories, like Trump, represent the interests of big business & the very wealthy. People who's priority is social and/or environmental justice should use their votes wisely & not be part of the problem. Simples .


----------



## Arnie83

What on earth does this Reynolds chap think that Brexit was a huge opportunity _for_?

The EU has upwards of 40 free trade deals, with more to come - notably Australia and Japan. Our first aspiration - according to Liam Fox - is to get them to agree that their arrangements with the EU can be cut and pasted on Brexit day + 1 so that we don't have to adopt WTO rules. Then the UK will have to renegotiate those deals from a position of being a fifth the size of the EU, and therefore with commensurately reduced clout, while each of the 40+ will approach the talks with the intention of improving their own position.

And the apparent biggy - the US, whose agreement with the EU has an average of 3% tariffs - has recently been warned by David Davis that they shouldn't be protectionist, so that's looking like a winner!

What are we supposed to get out of this, apart from a prehistoric feeling among the Leavers of nationalistic pride?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Agree too. I said I read a little, not all of what that chap was saying in his linked letter and agreed with him that Brexit needed a government who wanted to leave and had a plan in order to fully utilise the opportunity they'd been given. There was too much for me to read just before I did the horses and took my dog to the vet. He also said Brexit was a great opportunity. Which I also agree with. Now I've read his usual MO, thanks @rona I'll not bother reading the rest and pay him no mind.


I was reading this about a vet the other day. It made me feel very sad & ashamed - https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaign...rough-the-eyes-of-a-spanish-vet--6-months-on/

*Brexit through the eyes of a Spanish vet: 6 months on*


*Posted on August 30, 2017 by Bruno Nicolas
*

I cannot believe it's been over a year since the Brexit Referendum. No one could believe the results either … OUT. It was funny (or should I say sad) when I heard people around me saying things like, 'I voted OUT because I thought the results would be IN'. I struggled to believe the result, but it is what the British public wished and we have to respect it.

This year it is been such a quiet one, no changes in my life at all, same job, same salary, same taxes to pay. I was not expecting too many changes, to be honest; because I had a tiny hope that it had all been a nightmare and the British people would change their minds and ask for a second referendum, but that was just a dream. The UK has started meetings with other countries to develop agreements and we will have to wait until the next year or two to see how everything ends up.

*Does the Government know EU vets don't feel welcome?*
Everyone keeps saying that nothing is going to happen to EU vets, that we will keep our jobs and rights to stay and live in the UK, but it is difficult to trust these declarations when the Government plans to have strategic meetings with non-European countries like India or Pakistan, or Brazil and Argentina. Does the Government know EU vets won't feel welcome? Or maybe EU vets will simply go back to their homes and the UK will lose those 50% of vets registering each year? Either way, it doesn't sound very promising to me

I work in small animal practice but there's also the point about Official Veterinarians, who provide government services like disease testing or post mortems in abattoirs, around 90% of whom are EU nationals. This is another field the Government must deal with: the UK doesn't want animal welfare standards to fall after it leaves the EU.

*Unsettled status*
A few weeks ago, the Government said all EU nationals living and working in the UK for five years will be entitled to apply for settled status. I have been in this country for 3 years, what is it going to happen with me? Won't I be allowed to apply for my rights?

As I said before, in general it doesn't sound very promising. And, after one year of Brexit news, updates and agreements, I am seriously considering to leaving the country before it all falls down. I cannot see a future for me in the UK.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> *What on earth does this Reynolds chap think that Brexit was a huge opportunity for?*
> 
> The EU has upwards of 40 free trade deals, with more to come - notably Australia and Japan. Our first aspiration - according to Liam Fox - is to get them to agree that their arrangements with the EU can be cut and pasted on Brexit day + 1 so that we don't have to adopt WTO rules. Then the UK will have to renegotiate those deals from a position of being a fifth the size of the EU, and therefore with commensurately reduced clout, while each of the 40+ will approach the talks with the intention of improving their own position.
> 
> And the apparent biggy - the US, whose agreement with the EU has an average of 3% tariffs - has recently been warned by David Davis that they shouldn't be protectionist, so that's looking like a winner!
> 
> What are we supposed to get out of this, apart from a prehistoric feeling among the Leavers of nationalistic pride?


That I cant answer lol


----------



## rona

He also said this
"If it wasn’t for the miners and steelworkers of South Wales, the UK would now be a province of the Third Reich. As it is, the disastrous incompetence of the last Labour government, topped off by out-of-touch toffs has brought us to the point where if we stay in the EU, we will be just a subsidiary of Frau Merkel’s Greater Germany."

"I fervently hope that in the General Election of 2015, the British people seize control and change our nation for the better with a dramatic verdict. We need another Conservative Liberal coalition but with the Tories severely hobbled and a strong showing from the minor parties. We need some healthy debate, dissent and disrespect for the old ways"

He was a member of the Lib Dems for just one year too and is trying to get cannabis legalised, not just for medicinal purposes but for general use.

Sorry, not the type of person I'd take any notice of, even though I may agree with a few of his opinions


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> "
> 
> Sorry, not the type of person I'd take any notice of, *even though I may agree with a few of his opinions*


It's possible I _only _agree with his opinion on this shambles of a government as I cant been bothered to delve into his history.


----------



## Elles

Yes, 95% of abattoir vets are from the Eu. What does this say about British vets? Are they all vegetarians? Or is there a little bias in play in abattoirs, especially considering most abattoir workers are none British too. Maybe Brits are becoming less interested in killing animals to eat them, or maybe abattoirs are controlled mainly by none British and don't want to employ British workers. 95% of taxi drivers are now male and the majority of those are none British. I suppose British women don't want to drive taxis as a job either.

What makes skilled, qualified vets from the Eu think it will be more difficult for them to stay in uk after Brexit, when time and time again the British government have assured people that it won't be? The government didn't even want Brexit. People should stop reading the bad news press, unless they want to just give up before anything has happened. That's up to them. It's not as though they're about to be deported to Syria. With their Eu passport they can go to any of the 27 countries available to them, if they're worried about it.

We can't and the Eu aren't saying anything reassuring on that point. Good or bad, failing a second referendum that is also successful on the Remain side, a big ask and unlikely, we're stuck with Brexit and better start pressuring our government into doing better. Addressing some of the issues that will in the future be entirely their responsibility, with no Eu to blame.

Labour want to stay in the single market for a transitional period and want an amendment to the withdrawal bill. I don't see a problem with that request? I said at the time of the last GE it would be good if the Conservatives weren't given carte blanche to do absolutely anything they want. Clearly the majority of the British public didn't want them to have it either.


----------



## noushka05

They are dragging this country through the mud, we're looking nastier by the day. This is just awful.

*Leaked document reveals UK Brexit plan to deter EU immigrants * https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants


----------



## Elles

Sounds fine to me.


----------



## sharloid

I really hope some decisions are made soon. I don't currently live in the UK and the exchange rate keeps dropping. I really don't want to be forced to move back to the UK!


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> What makes skilled, qualified vets from the Eu think it will be more difficult for them to stay in uk after Brexit, when time and time again the British government have assured people that it won't be?


Maybe government actions rather than what they say. Having people from the EU with permanent residency already needing to apply for new permanent residency a great example. Permanent residency shouldn't simply become invalid when a government changes something, it should be permanent. How many times will they need to apply when things change?

The British government lies through it's teeth, especially at the moment. It's all about spin rather than reality. They are playing propaganda to the UK public instead of getting things done and making hard choices. They are pretending they have a plan when they don't and hiding information the public needs to prepare for the consequences. Not that those like Farage, Gove and Johnson had any plan either. Whole thing has been a mess starting with Cameron's decision to hold a referendum to help internal tory party politics.



> Labour want to stay in the single market for a transitional period and want an amendment to the withdrawal bill. I don't see a problem with that request? I said at the time of the last GE it would be good if the Conservatives weren't given carte blanche to do absolutely anything they want. Clearly the majority of the British public didn't want them to have it either.


Although I agree, it was important the Conservatives didn't have a large majority, the majority of people voting were voting for only a party, not the number of seats which they couldn't actually know. Despite the result, not clearly the majority who didn't want them to have it. A large percentage didn't want the conservatives in power to provide so called "strong and stable" leadership.


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> They are dragging this country through the mud, we're looking nastier by the day. This is just awful.
> 
> *Leaked document reveals UK Brexit plan to deter EU immigrants * https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants


And.....?

A restriction on immigration but allow skilled workers into the country, isn't that part and parcel of what leave voted for? Just like how Australia and USA operate? It's a positive for the majority that did vote leave and the government are doing their duty and acting on it.

I know remain will protest every step of the way until Brexit happens, but this was always on the cards when leave won the vote, again you protest against democracy.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> I know remain will protest every step of the way until Brexit happens, but this was always on the cards when leave won the vote, again you protest against democracy.


Can you explain how opposition to a single, non-binding referendum result is a protest against democracy?

Maybe you can also explain how discrimation towards immigrants once they have been permitted to stay in this country should be acceptable.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Can you explain how opposition to a single, non-binding referendum result is a protest against democracy?
> 
> Maybe you can also explain how discrimation towards immigrants once they have been permitted to stay in this country should be acceptable.


Pop off and read the article properly.

It's not discrimination at all to insist on being a benefit to the foreign country you wish to be a resident off, it's common sense.

Oh, once again your non-binding referendum comment lost any weight when it was well and truly bounded


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Pop off and read the article properly.
> 
> It's not discrimination at all to insist on being a benefit to the foreign country you wish to be a resident off, it's common sense.
> 
> Oh, once again your non-binding referendum comment lost any weight when it was well and truly bounded


Maybe you should read the article again, employers needing to check employees.. cheaper to simply not interview people who would need checks. Biometric ID cards.

You've never provided anything against the supporting evidence supplied that the referendum was non-binding, even Farage stated that it wasn't binding. It's an inconvenient truth, then again truth isn't something many on the leave side appreciate. Again you are avoiding the question though. What is undemocratic about providing opposition to a direction the country is taking which will damage it? Democracy has never been only a single vote but is a continual process.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Sounds fine to me.


Really? Wow. This is a race to the bottom between Trump & May.

Well not in my name.














Dr Pepper said:


> And.....?
> 
> A restriction on immigration but allow skilled workers into the country, isn't that part and parcel of what leave voted for? Just like how Australia and USA operate? It's a positive for the majority that did vote leave and the government are doing their duty and acting on it.
> 
> I know remain will protest every step of the way until Brexit happens, but this was always on the cards when leave won the vote, again you protest against democracy.


Yes it is part & parcel of what leave voted for. And I assume the reason many voted to reduce immigration wasn't because they are racist but because they fell for the lie that we didn't have control of our own borders & immigrants were responsible for the housing crisis our collapsing NHS & public services etc. Well watch these things get a damn sight worse now because the tories will ramp up austerity - then who or what will be the new scapegoat? People blamed immigration when it was tory austerity all along. Fallon was on this morning peddling the lie that immigrants are putting a strain on public services when his government has slashed funding to the bone. Does he think we're all stupid?

May helped deliver brexit by perpetuating false immigration statistics when she was in the HO. What a nasty piece of work she is. https://www.theguardian.com/educati...-to-exclude-foreign-students?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## Elles

The biggest lie of all is when Remainers say they accept the result of the referendum. It doesn't sound like it.

Why is anyone surprised, this or similar is what people were voting for. Employers already have to check they aren't employing an illegal immigrant. If you aren't an illegal, you'll have a passport and some form of paperwork which will take 2 seconds for an employer to look at.

Here's a link to full document:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...st-brexit-immigration-policy-document-in-full

The newspapers are as usual cherry picking. The document isn't final either, much depends on negotiations with the Eu.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> The biggest lie of all is when Remainers say they accept the result of the referendum. It doesn't sound like it.


Good thing about democracy, change can happen. I accept the result and will do what I can to change the direction it has placed us, just as those who wanted to leave the EU didn't accept previous democratic decisions for various reasons and wouldn't have stopped campaigning to leave either.



> Why is anyone surprised, this or similar is what people were voting for.


Strange, didn't see this mentioned anywhere on the ballet box. EU rules already have the ability for people to be registered and kicked out if not in employment or be able to support themselves. In otherwords, under free movement, if you are unable to contribute to the society in which you move to, you are unable to stay. So we had the ability in the EU, didn't need to leave to achieve it.


----------



## Elles

@Goblin so you keep saying and I've already replied more than once. There is a difference between having 3 months to find any old job that will do until you get citizenship and actually being a needed and useful member of society. Tony Blair got us into this mess in the first place, now people are trying to get us out of it. From the leaked paper the government is looking at how people can be of benefit to themselves and others, to individuals and society, not just at overall economy and GDP, but at specifics, including infrastructure and how to make changes to benefit all once outside of the Eu. It's not a final paper, but it does give an idea of the direction this government is taking on immigration. I thought you'd said you didn't vote? Ballot boxes don't lay out policy on anything ever, so why would someone expect them to.

You don't agree with what's in the paper, fine. Object to it. But when people say this is what they wanted when they voted, it's what they wanted. They couldn't be certain to get it, but they could be certain they wouldn't if they voted to remain.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Ballot boxes don't lay out policy on anything ever, so why would someone expect them to.


Oh great one.. please show me the details of what leaving entails as obviously it is written down somewhere for people to know what they were voting for and for you to be able to say why people voted out.


----------



## Elles

There were many reasons that people voted to leave the Eu. Unfortunately they couldn't guarantee that their current government would carry them out. However, if they don't, there will be future elections. For some it is enough that we are leaving what the Eu has become, for others they have specific hopes for the future from it. You can dismiss people's hopes if you like, sit and stagnate and wallow in your misery and try to share it on petforums. Petforums is a caring, sharing place, so you can. 

I still haven't seen anything that would persuade people to change their mind about the Eu.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> There were many reasons that people voted to leave the Eu. Unfortunately they couldn't guarantee that their current government would carry them out. However, if they don't, there will be future elections.


Well what was promised by the leave campaign isn't possible. Holding government to account is also interesting when we've lost a lot of the ability to hold the government to account for it's actions and the current government is keen that as much is lost as possible.



> You can dismiss people's hopes if you like, sit and stagnate and wallow in your misery and try to share it on petforums. Petforums is a caring, sharing place, so you can.


So you cannot actually explain anything prefering to stick your head in the sand you mean. Fantasy vs reality. Fantasy always will win although when dealing with people's wellbeing and the future I would hope reality and facts were important when voting. Seems they were not.



> I still haven't seen anything that would persuade people to change their mind about the Eu.


I know, Brexit is sad, the tragic thing which is worse and doesn't indicate a lot of hope for the future is when people make uninformed choices or those not based in reality. However, you aren't "people".


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The biggest lie of all is when Remainers say they accept the result of the referendum. It doesn't sound like it.
> 
> Why is anyone surprised, this or similar is what people were voting for. Employers already have to check they aren't employing an illegal immigrant. If you aren't an illegal, you'll have a passport and some form of paperwork which will take 2 seconds for an employer to look at.
> 
> Here's a link to full document:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...st-brexit-immigration-policy-document-in-full
> 
> The newspapers are as usual cherry picking. The document isn't final either, much depends on negotiations with the Eu.


Who said anything about Remainers accepting the referendum result. Well, some might do.

I for one do not respect a result based on xenophobia and lies. Far from it. The only Brexit I want is no Brexit at all.

It's an equivalent of buying a faulty product or something that doesn't do what it said it would do.

We'd take it back and ask for our money back wouldn't we?


----------



## Happy Paws2

I respect the result of the referendum, what I don't accept is the lies what got people to vote leave, and the damage that is happening.

If we had been told the truth from both sides at the time, we might not but in the mess we are in now.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Who said anything about Remainers accepting the referendum result. Well, some might do.
> 
> I for one do not respect a result based on xenophobia and lies. Far from it. The only Brexit I want is no Brexit at all.
> 
> It's an equivalent of buying a faulty product or something that doesn't do what it said it would do.
> 
> We'd take it back and ask for our money back wouldn't we?


Leave the EU

or

Remain in the EU

It really was as simple as that.

Now if there had been multiple choices such as:-

Leave the EU but remain in the single market but stop freedom of movement.

Remain in the EU but leave the single market.

Leave the EU but remain in the single market and keep freedom of movement and the EUCU.

Leave the EU but keep mobile roaming tariffs same as uk so you don't overspend on your holidays.

Etc etc etc

Then you would have cause for complaint that every possible eventuality wasn't catered for so people didn't know what they were voting for as it was so confusing.

Thankfully they kept it a simple "all in" or "all out". Which everyone could understand. So no, we bought exactly what we were sold.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> So no, we bought exactly what we were sold.


Yet unable to actually state what that is in detail. Yes, sure "leave means leave" is the propaganda but what other things like euratom are we leaving? You obviously know what you voted for so why not list them. Why not list the trade deals which will stop when we leave throughout the world? Why not state how and where the additional customs inspection facilities are going to come from and how they are going to be funded. Amazed if you can, the government can't.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Yet unable to actually state what that is in detail. Yes, sure "leave means leave" is the propaganda but what other things like euratom are we leaving? You obviously know what you voted for so why not list them. Why not list the trade deals which will stop when we leave throughout the world? Why not state how and where the additional customs inspection facilities are going to come from and how they are going to be funded. Amazed if you can, the government can't.


The detail? Really?

We are leaving the EU hook, line and sinker.

Not difficult to understand and nothing to list as it'd be to long. To keep it simple for you though, everything we are tied and committed to the EU at the moment we voted to leave. And we are.

It really was a simple vote, not sure what some remainers didn't/don't understand?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dr Pepper said:


> The detail? Really?
> 
> We are leaving the EU hook, line and sinker.
> 
> Not difficult to understand and nothing to list as it'd be to long. To keep it simple for you though, everything we are tied and committed to the EU at the moment we voted to leave. And we are.
> 
> It really was a simple vote, not sure what some remainers didn't/don't understand?


I but has turn out to be that simple has it, the divorce settlement, trade, immigration the list goes on and on.


----------



## Elles

More jobs in customs and the money will come from duty I expect, if it happens.

They haven't even started on trade deals yet and I'd guess, though I could be wrong, that most of the British public don't really care about restrictive trade deals with the Eu that much anyway.

Euratom
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP-UK-government-charts-legal-route-out-of-Euratom-13071701.html


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> They are dragging this country through the mud, we're looking nastier by the day. This is just awful.
> 
> *Leaked document reveals UK Brexit plan to deter EU immigrants * https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants


Nothing awful about it. Nothing. Pretty standard stuff. Almost a copy/paste of the American system that works very well. It'd get my vote.

I guess if you go around looking to find awfulness in things you'll succeed.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> The biggest lie of all is when Remainers say they accept the result of the referendum. It doesn't sound like it.
> 
> Why is anyone surprised, this or similar is what people were voting for. Employers already have to check they aren't employing an illegal immigrant. If you aren't an illegal, you'll have a passport and some form of paperwork which will take 2 seconds for an employer to look at.
> 
> Here's a link to full document:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...st-brexit-immigration-policy-document-in-full
> 
> The newspapers are as usual cherry picking. The document isn't final either, much depends on negotiations with the Eu.


The whole leave campaign was based on lies & deceit. There were insidious forces behind the leave campaigns. The referendum was gerrymandered, but remainers are supposed to suck it up while our country is dragged over a cliff.

People clearly didnt know we already the means to control immigration - but the government chose not to. People were led to believe immigration was bad for our country - it isnt.












Theresa May 'suppressed' up to 9 studies which found immigration does not harm UK workers http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ce-cable-prime-minister-liberal-a7932001.html

The newspaper highlighted the parts which will impact on peoples lives. But here is a breakdown of the report by a Professor.

.

_So let's get started for latest episode of "Brexit Cluster****"... Reading leaked immigration policy doc now and will do some tweeting_

_Off to a flying start here with completely rubbish line referring to "fair and serious offer" for The 3 Million. Let's be clear again: 
The offer is many things. "Fair and serious" aren't among those things. It doesn't protect our rights as they exist, it restricts them. Yes, given rise. But instead of fighting that wrong perception we're just going to jump onto the anti-migrant bandwagon_.










_ EU nationals to have to travel with passport (not ID cards) and idea to introduce pre-clearance - in fairness: EU also pursuing latter. Refers to an implementation period for changes of at least two years, little change during that period.

Idea to take fingerprints of new arrivals who wish to register for staying longer_ ....










_This sounds like years and years of more limbo for the 3 million! Remember: ref to implementation period of at least two years!_

_So what? Are we looking at 2021 at best?!_

_Let me throw in a general one: lots of nonsense in here about unrestricted and unconditional FoM >> FoM has regs that permit shaping it. UK chose to not use them. Pure pandering to anti-migrant line here_.
_Impossible, surely, in light of other aims? Essentially an open border then._











_ Short section on __@_*The3Million*_ emphasises degree on uncertainty around process. Plus let me say again: they have absolutely no idea we are .... So they're putting onus on us. Remember my piece here __http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/06/22/first-bargaining-chips-now-stocktaking-the-plan-to-register-eu-citizens/…__ in that context_








_
Residency permit: 2 years norm, considering 3-5 years for highly-skilled. Would I have come under that? Nope. Why on earth would anyone?_









_Changing rules over the years??? Making it up as we go along_









_This is a significant concern, and I think also for __@_*The3Million*_ - rights not safe if there's an idea that everything can still evolve_.








_This is why we need the ECJ. Simply 0 evidence that we can trust UK government_

_Not impressed by this_









_Special mentions for highly-skilled to reassure ... well, sweeties, they'll be so deterred by time we get to this they'll be non-entity_










_Come to the UK ... l and have absolutely no idea what the future will look like, what rules will be etc. They have no idea_.









_Did I say: THEY HAVE NO IDEA!_








_Reference to employers and other "third parties", with landlords expressly mentioned, having to do checks on status >> very worrying.
Considering recent Home Office "errors" I have no reason to think any of this would work. Data protection concerns too_












_ Here we go: Ukip party programme becoming government policy_











_ Clearly social impact considered negative here and as a given - extremely problematic: evidence for that near zero_

_This will probably turn out to be my "favourite" bit: ultimately it implies __@_*The3Million*_ who came via FoM have not been valuable

Put even more plainly, f*** this shit._
_Evidence already there. We know what it says - that migration is positive. You're actively ignoring evidence and doing exact opposite_








_AKA: Britain first ...._









_Oh no, total failure on the part of __@_*The3Million*_: I thought we were stealing all your jobs ... !_









_In other words: we're sacrificing FoM opportunities for Britons/EU nationals only to introduce agreements later to enable trade_

/









_Followed by a lot of cake and eating it .... AKA Brexit La La Land
Bye bye Erasmus etc_









_Notes intention to establish a "framework of deterrence" Followed by discussion on family migration/dependants etc. Unsurprisingly, not looking good there. Remainder is less about immigration regs.

So what's the main take-away? (1) Brexit is primarily about immigration--obviously always said it was but this makes it crystal-clear. (2) Ukip party policy has become govt policy. (3) Huge uncertainties still for__@_*The3Million*


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Nothing awful about it. Nothing. Pretty standard stuff. Almost a copy/paste of the American system that works very well. It'd get my vote.
> 
> I guess if you go around looking to find awfulness in things you'll succeed.


Maybe you'd feel differently if it affected you. EU citizens living here are worried sick.


----------



## noushka05

Sums up just how bad things are.

Exclusive @*MarkKleinmanSky* - FTSE-100 bosses express incredulity at being asked to sign a Number 10 letter backing PM's Brexit strategy

FTSE100 boss asked to sign No10 Brexit letter told Mark "There's no way we could sign this given current state of chaos surrounding talks"


----------



## Elles

I already posted that people could come from the Eu to the uk to look for any old job and had 3 months (previously 6 I think) to find something that will do for now. After the transition period of Brexit they will have to have a job, or a skill that's needed and apply to work here. Same as we do for a lot of places and same as the govt have asked for from the Eu in return.

Someone coming to the uk also needs somewhere to live and access to facilities. It's not just a matter of having any old job and lasting long enough to get residency and the same rights as uk citizens. There was no lie. Whether the government acted on it or not, many people felt it didn't go far enough. A bit like the fox hunting bill.

I believe 250,000 people came to the uk from Eu countries this year? It doesn't appear to be putting people off just yet. I agree that the negotiators should get on with sorting it out for current residents, the 3m Europeans here and 1m Brits in Europe, but I suppose all anyone can do is write to their representatives and MPs and MEPs to tell them they aren't happy and to get on with it.

What someone sitting typing on petforums is supposed to do I don't know. I already linked the government pages advising on the subject and suggested people sign up for emails. Can't do any more I'm afraid.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Sums up just how bad things are.
> 
> Exclusive @*MarkKleinmanSky* - FTSE-100 bosses express incredulity at being asked to sign a Number 10 letter backing PM's Brexit strategy
> 
> FTSE100 boss asked to sign No10 Brexit letter told Mark "There's no way we could sign this given current state of chaos surrounding talks"


The top company bosses said before the referendum and since that they want to stay in the Eu. Another 'leak'.


----------



## noushka05

*Leaked immigration plans 'catastrophic' for industry, say employers *https://www.theguardian.com/busines...on-plans-cbi-institute-of-directors-eu-brexit

*J.K. Rowling*‏Verified [email protected]*jk_rowling* 11h11 hours ago

_They lied, denied, manipulated and misinformed. The country's polarised and the xenophobes are joyful. Britain, we've been Trumped_


----------



## noushka05

(via David Schneider )

NHS:we need EU migrants
Farmers:we need EU migrants
Services:we need EU migrants
CBI:we need EU migrants
Economists:we need EU migrants
May:









_Brexiters say Remainers aren't patriotic as they torch what's best about the UK. I want my tolerant, open, forward-looking country back_.


----------



## noushka05

The National Farmers' Union say the "entire food supply chain" could be threatened by reckless immigration plans.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41172505


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Another little gem from the man who's opinion seems to matter to some
> 
> https://peterreynolds.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/size-0-the-politically-incorrect-truth/
> _ "Homosexuality is a perversion from the norm and gay culture has been allowed virtually to extinguish heterosexual influence in the fashion industry."
> 
> And that was said by him in his defence against claims he was homophobic _


Another bigot here Rona, except this one is tipped to be the next tory leader


----------



## Elles

Rees-Mogg is a catholic. Like the Pope. He doesn't allow his beliefs to impact on anyone else. Unlike the Pope.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> I but has turn out to be that simple has it, the divorce settlement, trade, immigration the list goes on and on.


I think all us leavers, at least all on here, were quite aware that it wouldn't be an easy transition. After all we would be dealing with that monolithic institution that is the EU.

we still want it though


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Rees-Mogg is a catholic. Like the Pope. He doesn't allow his beliefs to impact on anyone else. Unlike the Pope.


Have you not seen his voting record?

This:
_
Jacob Rees Mogg would bring catholic beliefs to office. Secularism demands he be kept out._


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I think all us leavers, at least all on here, were quite aware that it wouldn't be an easy transition. After all we would be dealing with that monolithic institution that is the EU.
> 
> we still want it though


Brexit whatever the cost we know.


----------



## noushka05

*This Is How EU Citizens Living In Britain Feel About The Leaked Brexit Immigration Proposals *

"I feel like a terrified child lost in a playground," one Hungarian national told BuzzFeed News

https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilydugan...-by-the-leaked?utm_term=.ygV7rZbpR#.nejOEwjLA


----------



## noushka05

*Nationalism is turning Britain into a basket case

*
All that matters is reducing immigration. Not for the economy. Not for wages. But because we have a Ukip government pursuing a Ukip policy agenda and pretending it's the Tory party.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/09/06/nationalism-is-turning-britain-into-a-basket-case


----------



## Elles

Hungary is in the Eu. There shouldn't be refugees running from government in the Eu.


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> Another bigot here Rona, except this one is tipped to be the next tory leader


The difference being......I'm not espousing the man to everyone else


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> The difference being......I'm not espousing the man to everyone else


I most certainly am not ensposing the man - I knew nothing about him & I most certainly would not support a vile bigot. I support his opinion that this is the worst government we've had because the evidence supports it too. BIG difference Rona.

Some people actually do support nasty bigots though (refer to meme  ). Even want them in power. If Rees Mogg does become leader of the toxic tories I wonder will you vent your disgust about it?

Interesting article. Maybe this is one of the reasons Peter joined the tory party & for voted for brexit?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-for-us-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu-a6951916.html
_
It's important not to dwell on the past, but let's not forget that it was Mr Johnson's party that introduced the Section 28 law which prohibited local authorities from promoting homosexuality or gay 'pretended' family relationships. The MEP Seb Dance commented on this saying, 'While the European Union was working to extend LGBTI around the world, Boris Johnson talked up the merits of Clause 28 and its ability to stop 'leftwing local authorities to waste taxpayers' money on idiotic and homosexual instruction'. It wasn't until a Labour government, that this discriminatory act was finally repealed.

I'm neither in the 'stay' or 'leave' camp and don't speak for either, but you don't have to be a politician to know that being part of Europe is good for Britain and its LGBT people. We are stronger because we're in the EU, and a vote to leave would jeopardise this. For LGBT people, leaving Europe really would be a leap into the dark_


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> The National Farmers' Union say the "entire food supply chain" could be threatened by reckless immigration plans.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41172505


You do realise the NFU is just an insurance company these days, has been for at least 25 years that I know off. Take anything they say as just paying lip-service, they couldn't care less.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Leave the EU
> 
> or
> 
> Remain in the EU
> 
> It really was as simple as that.
> 
> Now if there had been multiple choices such as:-
> 
> Leave the EU but remain in the single market but stop freedom of movement.
> 
> Remain in the EU but leave the single market.
> 
> Leave the EU but remain in the single market and keep freedom of movement and the EUCU.
> 
> Leave the EU but keep mobile roaming tariffs same as uk so you don't overspend on your holidays.
> 
> Etc etc etc
> 
> Then you would have cause for complaint that every possible eventuality wasn't catered for so people didn't know what they were voting for as it was so confusing.
> 
> Thankfully they kept it a simple "all in" or "all out". Which everyone could understand. So no, we bought exactly what we were sold.


Didn't David Cameron spell it out?
In means in
out means out
how hard is that to understand?


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> I most certainly am not ensposing the man - I knew nothing about him & I most certainly would not support a vile bigot. I support his opinion that this is the worst government we've had because the evidence supports it too. BIG difference Rona.
> 
> Some people actually do support nasty bigots though (refer to meme  ). Even want them in power. If Rees Mogg does become leader of the toxic tories I wonder will you vent your disgust about it?
> 
> Interesting article. Maybe this is one of the reasons Peter joined the tory party & for voted for brexit?
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-for-us-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu-a6951916.html
> _
> It's important not to dwell on the past, but let's not forget that it was Mr Johnson's party that introduced the Section 28 law which prohibited local authorities from promoting homosexuality or gay 'pretended' family relationships. The MEP Seb Dance commented on this saying, 'While the European Union was working to extend LGBTI around the world, Boris Johnson talked up the merits of Clause 28 and its ability to stop 'leftwing local authorities to waste taxpayers' money on idiotic and homosexual instruction'. It wasn't until a Labour government, that this discriminatory act was finally repealed.
> 
> I'm neither in the 'stay' or 'leave' camp and don't speak for either, but you don't have to be a politician to know that being part of Europe is good for Britain and its LGBT people. We are stronger because we're in the EU, and a vote to leave would jeopardise this. For LGBT people, leaving Europe really would be a leap into the dark_


How to miss a point by a mile. Was it on purpose so that you could spew some more bile?


----------



## rona

Dr Pepper said:


> You do realise the NFU is just an insurance company these days, has been for at least 25 years that I know off. Take anything they say as just paying lip-service, they couldn't care less.


Or another arm of government. Certainly nothing to do with grass root farmers other than to insure


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> *Nationalism is turning Britain into a basket case
> 
> *
> All that matters is reducing immigration. Not for the economy. Not for wages. But because we have a Ukip government pursuing a Ukip policy agenda and pretending it's the Tory party.
> 
> http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/09/06/nationalism-is-turning-britain-into-a-basket-case


Ian Dunt is another leftie who hated the EU some time ago. Seems as though he's joined a different bandwagon. Bless him. 

Darling of Remainers Backs Brexit.

(note to self: stop fannying around on petforums and concentrate on dealing with booming export orders.)


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles said:


> Ian Dunt is another leftie who hated the EU some time ago. Seems as though he's joined a different bandwagon. Bless him.
> 
> Darling of Remainers Backs Brexit.
> 
> (note to self: stop fannying around on petforums and concentrate on dealing with booming export orders.)


Honestly, I don't know why anyone cares about what anyone else thinks. What is actually happening is the important thing and I can't at the moment see any major disaster, just the expected difficulties maybe a few unexpected difficulties (and benefits) and lots and lots of fairy tales


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles said:


> (note to self: stop fannying around on petforums and concentrate on dealing with booming export orders.)


Quite


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> You do realise the NFU is just an insurance company these days, has been for at least 25 years that I know off. Take anything they say as just paying lip-service, they couldn't care less.


I cannot abide the NFU, they represent big landowners - but that doesnt mean they are lying about supply chains



rona said:


> How to miss a point by a mile. Was it on purpose so that you could spew some more bile?


More bile? You mean post the those truth about those lying bigots Johnson & Mogg? These politicians have dangerous views (& its not just their bigotry I'm talking about)- they need exposing for what they are. I'm sure you agree?



samuelsmiles said:


> Ian Dunt is another leftie* who hated the EU some time ago*. Seems as though he's joined a different bandwagon. Bless him.
> 
> Darling of Remainers Backs Brexit.


So did many people - me included  That's why I was careful to get fully informed by finding out the views of the green movement, the green party, climate experts, the consensual position of experts across the board, trusted public figures. And the message was the same - the UK, the environment were safer in the EU. And God am I glad I listened now.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-homes-avoid-regulations-brexit-a7933411.html

Proud of this Brexiteers?
From history I bet it won't stop there...


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> I cannot abide the NFU, they represent big landowners - but that doesnt mean they are lying about supply chains
> 
> More bile? You mean post the those truth about those lying bigots Johnson & Mogg? These politicians have dangerous views (& its not just their bigotry I'm talking about)- they need exposing for what they are. I'm sure you agree?
> 
> So did many people - me included  That's why I was careful to get fully informed by finding out the views of the green movement, the green party, climate experts, the consensual position of experts across the board, trusted public figures. And the message was the same - the UK, the environment were safer in the EU. And God am I glad I listened now.


Actually the NFU's (a mutual insurance company) largest customer base are small farms, smallholders and equine based. They don't represent large land owners and certainly have no expertise in supply chains or even farming practices these days, despite what they may claim. In a Previous business I visited every local office (some 600 odd if memory serves) and their head and regional offices many times over thirteen years, and not once did I encounter anyone dealing with anything but insurance. Actually that's a slight lie, during the foot & mouth outbreak I did witness three people in the marketing department reasearching the disease and cobbling together a press release.

Saying that they do employ fully qualified and experienced vets to investigate equine insurance claims.

Basically they are not a credible source for farming related information, but they are a knowledgeable insurance company.


----------



## Elles

"9 out of 10 of landlords when asked, admitted that government plans have made no difference and they'll continue to let their properties to anyone who will pay the rent and keep it tidy." 

Doesn't make quite the same headline.

Many people these days let through agencies.

Landlords are meant to check everyone's status, so the 1 out of 10 aren't letting to anyone? To rent a property you need references and deposits and credit checks and all sorts. You think this extra check (on everyone) is going to make any difference? 

Let's drop all the laws and all the rules, so that there's no risk of anyone being slightly inconvenienced by having to comply with them.


----------



## Elles

What has Boris, Rees-Mogg or his religious beliefs got to do with anything? They're for a GE thread aren't they? It was worth suggesting that people like those might have been in charge of Brexit to put people off before the referendum, but it's too late now and they aren't. The thought of Brexit Boris didn't seem to deter most, but it was certainly a contributory factor when I considered my vote. Last I heard it was a chap called David Davis who's negotiating with Eu on our behalf though.

My horse is insured through the NFU. They have a good reputation, though it is rumoured that they aren't as good as they used to be. Fortunately I've not had to make a claim yet.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Elles said:


> My horse is insured through the NFU. They have a good reputation, though it is rumoured that they aren't as good as they used to be. Fortunately I've not had to make a claim yet.


As a specialist insurer they are excellent. If you have a small holding or farm you won't beat the personal service as they will visit your premises and insure accordingly, same with claims. They also actually know the local area rather than just some bod in a call centre god knows where. With your horse should you have a large claim they will send their own vet to check the diagnosis, you get a expert second opinion for free.

Saying that it's been twelve years since I had any dealings with them, hopefully they haven't let standards slip.


----------



## Elles

My dog's insured via Debenhams. We've had 2 lots of claims so far, one for around 2k and the recent one about £600. Printed off the claim forms from the 'net and left it with the vet to do the claims for us. The 2k was settled in 5 days, the £600 within 10, but I don't think the vet sent the forms straight away. I can't fault them.  If the NFU match that, I'll be delighted.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Didn't David Cameron spell it out?
> In means in
> out means out
> how hard is that to understand?


And once again slogans rather than the details. Says it all doesn't it when people are unable to provide the details of what they voted for. Dr Pepper couldn't do better though having to revert to a one liner effectively saying the same thing, "Leave means leave".


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> "9 out of 10 of landlords when asked, admitted that government plans have made no difference and they'll continue to let their properties to anyone who will pay the rent and keep it tidy."
> 
> Doesn't make quite the same headline.
> 
> Many people these days let through agencies.
> 
> Landlords are meant to check everyone's status, so the 1 out of 10 aren't letting to anyone? To rent a property you need references and deposits and credit checks and all sorts. You think this extra check (on everyone) is going to make any difference?
> 
> Let's drop all the laws and all the rules, so that there's no risk of anyone being slightly inconvenienced by having to comply with them.


Have you been watching the programme on. Bbc 1 where council tenants have been abusing their tenacies. Some people go to great depths, sadly.


----------



## rona

Dr Pepper said:


> They don't represent large land owners and certainly have no expertise in supply chains or even farming practices these days, despite what they may claim.


They do oversee food assurance through The Red Tractor scheme etc. They also have farming advisers, for what they are worth!

https://www.nfuonline.com/membership/your-nfu-services/


----------



## rona

https://www.farminguk.com/News/UK-s...o-cheaper-food-imports-report-says_47334.html

"Britain's poorest households will be the biggest beneficiaries of Britain's departure from the European Union, according to a report published by a prominent Labour group."

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.n...569589/new_model_economy_paper.pdf?1504569589

"It says: "These households spend more on food and housing, the prices of both of which are raised substantially by *EU protectionism*. Our estimates show that the lowest decile household would gain £36 a week from Brexit; the second lowest decile (60 per cent of the median) would gain £44 a week"


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually the NFU's (a mutual insurance company) largest customer base are small farms, smallholders and equine based. They don't represent large land owners and certainly have no expertise in supply chains or even farming practices these days, despite what they may claim. In a Previous business I visited every local office (some 600 odd if memory serves) and their head and regional offices many times over thirteen years, and not once did I encounter anyone dealing with anything but insurance. Actually that's a slight lie, during the foot & mouth outbreak I did witness three people in the marketing department reasearching the disease and cobbling together a press release.
> 
> Saying that they do employ fully qualified and experienced vets to investigate equine insurance claims.
> 
> Basically they are not a credible source for farming related information, but they are a knowledgeable insurance company.


The NFU is not an insurance company, NFU Mutual is a seperate entity though it is connected to the NFU. The NFU is an agri lobby group it mainly represents the interests of big landowners.

But its stands to reason brexit will disrupt supply chains. And here, for example, is what the pig industry say about the leaked document.

*Pig industry 'alarmed' by leaked immigration documents*
https://www.farminguk.com/News/Pig-industry-alarmed-by-leaked-immigration-documents_47349.html


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> https://www.farminguk.com/News/UK-s...o-cheaper-food-imports-report-says_47334.html
> 
> "Britain's poorest households will be the biggest beneficiaries of Britain's departure from the European Union, according to a report published by a prominent Labour group."
> 
> https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.n...569589/new_model_economy_paper.pdf?1504569589
> 
> "It says: "These households spend more on food and housing, the prices of both of which are raised substantially by *EU protectionism*. Our estimates show that the lowest decile household would gain £36 a week from Brexit; the second lowest decile (60 per cent of the median) would gain £44 a week"


We're already aware brexit likely means cheap food flooding the market. Here, from your own article.

*'Sacrifices'*

However, some farmers have voiced concerns over the prospect of a post-Brexit UK with a 'cheap food agenda that sacrifices basic standards'.

In an article published by _The Guardian_, farmer Edward Barker said that uncertainty seems the only thing the farming industry can be sure of after 25 years of EU regulation.

Mr Barker, who manages a mixed 500 hectare farm in Northamptonshire growing cereals, with a beef and sheep enterprise, outlined concerns over the potential impact for farm businesses of withdrawing from the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) and highlighted the issues around post-Brexit trade deals.

He wrote: "We are, rightly, prevented from importing a number of different foods and products from outside the European Union because they do not meet set standards.

*Differing standards*

This has been reinforced by research by the National Pig Association (NPA), which highlights the differing welfare standards across the major pig producing countries, including the the UK, the major EU producers, the US, Canada and Brazil.

NPA senior policy advisor Georgina Crayford, who compiled the document, said: "When negotiating trade deals with third countries, it is vitally important that the UK pig sector is not undercut by imports of pork from countries with lower welfare standards. We must insist on equivalent standards."

Howver, the AHDB has warned that the British Government could have difficulty trying to protect high welfare domestic farmers against overseas farmers operating to lower welfare, and lower cost, standards.

"Following the Brexit vote there has been a great deal of debate in the industry on whether the UK will adopt higher animal welfare standards, than those currently across the EU. In addition, there has be debate on whether the UK could use these higher standards, if adopted, as a barrier to restrict trade in below-standard products," says the report, written by AHDB senior analyst Sarah Baker and David Swales, head of strategic insight.

*Cheap food*

The Environment Secretary, Michael Gove, who was one of the leaders of the campaign to leave the EU, is a proponent of free trade who said during the referendum campaign that leaving the European Union could provide British consumers with cheap food as a result of trade deals with emerging nations, although since taking up his Defra role he has spoken of protecting UK welfare standards.

Speaking to the _East Anglian Daily Times_ during the Royal Norfolk Show, he said: "Farmers recognise that as we leave the EU there are opportunities because of the high quality produce that the UK is famous for, and Norfolk in particular is noted for.

"There is an opportunity to sell more abroad - but we also need to make sure that as we do sell abroad that we do not compromise our high environmental and animal welfare standards."

His predecessor as Environment Secretary, Andrea Leadsom, said at the NFU conference earlier this year: "We have been very clear in our manifesto that high animal welfare standards will be a core part of any international free trade arrangements.

"I have been very clear that we will not seek to put ourselves in an uncompetitive position by reducing welfare or food safety or food traceability standards. It's a very key unique selling point for the UK. We don't want to do anything to undermine that."

*'International exemplar'*

Farming Minister George Eustice said at the Egg & Poultry Industry Conference in November: "We want to make the UK the international exemplar when it comes to animal health and welfare.

"I would like us to pioneer new policies, new ways of working, to create a policy that is the envy of the world. I want us to get to a place where a decade from now the rest of the world will want to emulate policies that we put in place," said the Minister.

*However, more recently the Prime Minister refused to rule out lowering British food standards in order to secure a trade deal with the United States. Fears grew over the potential opening of the UK to imports of chlorinated chicken and hormone treated beef.*


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> The NFU is not an insurance company, NFU Mutual is a seperate entity though it is connected to the NFU. The NFU is an agri lobby group it mainly represents the interests of big landowners.
> 
> But its stands to reason brexit will disrupt supply chains. And here, for example, is what the pig industry say about the leaked document.
> 
> *Pig industry 'alarmed' by leaked immigration documents*
> https://www.farminguk.com/News/Pig-industry-alarmed-by-leaked-immigration-documents_47349.html


Na, they are one and the same. Pop into a local office to see your NFU group secretary and you'll be speaking to the manager of the insurance business. There is no separation between the two. You'll have to trust me on this, I did have a contract with them for thirteen years and visited every office many times. Over the years they have also bought other insurance companies. Insurance is the main business of the NFU, farming is a tiny inconvenience that gives them a usp.

Not that it really matters one way or the other, just wanted to put a bit of perspective on what the NFU's interests actually are.


----------



## Dr Pepper

rona said:


> They do oversee food assurance through The Red Tractor scheme etc. They also have farming advisers, for what they are worth!
> 
> https://www.nfuonline.com/membership/your-nfu-services/


Thanks, I forgot they were responsible for the red tractor. And that's actually a good scheme and I only eat meat that is part of it.


----------



## Elles

So they could lower standards, or they could raise standards and do even better. The majority seem to be calling for higher standards and Tory voters aren't renowned for having the kind of attitude that wants cheap chicken from America. This is one of the issues the public can campaign on and keep up the pressure, alongside an end to the horror that is live transport for these commodities that live and breathe and that the Eu do little to nothing about.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> So they could lower standards, or they could raise standards and do even better.


Other than the fact we then run into WTO rules. Also can you give examples where the government has actually implemented higher standards? The UK government was leading way pushing against the EU ban on neonicotinoids not that long ago. Most of britains environmental protection stems from the EU. Of course we could also talk about the badger culling. Why is it that almost all animal welfare groups did not support brexit I wonder. Obviously welfare was of primary importance to them. They do not share your optimism.


----------



## Elles

No I can't and there's a difference between optimism and joining campaigns to push for it, as I've suggested members of the public now do. Badger culling and the continuing use of neonicotinoids were brought about by pressure from wealthy groups, if the same wealthy groups want to maintain or improve standards to avoid being undercut, they'll be on the side of right this time.


----------



## rona

Did you know our Pig welfare is better than virtually all of the rest of the world?
Including most of the EU

The NPA are suggesting welfare labelling, so that UK consumers know how well farm animals are treated, even if meat is imported. 
http://www.pig-world.co.uk/news/hig...e-standards-compare-with-our-competitors.html

Our farmers are proud of their welfare standards and are fighting against the cheap food lobby to keep our standards in place or even improved. They know it's the only way to keep the industry


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Did you know our Pig welfare is better than virtually all of the rest of the world?
> Including most of the EU


Shame WTO rules do not allow import bans due to methods of production then isn't it. You know rules the UK will have no influence over, no ability to push for raising standards elsewhere.


----------



## Elles

WTO rules allow bans on imports on animal welfare grounds. We can set any standard on animal welfare we want to.


----------



## MiffyMoo

samuelsmiles said:


> Ian Dunt is another leftie who hated the EU some time ago. Seems as though he's joined a different bandwagon. Bless him.
> 
> Darling of Remainers Backs Brexit.
> 
> (note to self: stop fannying around on petforums and concentrate on dealing with booming export orders.)


Haha, you missed this one

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/order-order.com/2017/09/05/owen-jones-on-brexit-then-and-now/amp/


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> WTO rules allow bans on imports on animal welfare grounds. We can set any standard on animal welfare we want to.


A country is allowed to have an import ban based on public morals if there is a long history of public opposition. Animal welfare is treated as a moral issue. Haven't seen major protests against things like live animal exports. It's also hard to argue that when the repeal bill going through removes the EU recognition that animals are sentient beings.

The government would have to defend any ban through legal process, much like it would in the EU. What is their record like on things like that?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> It's also hard to argue that when the repeal bill going through removes the EU recognition that animals are sentient beings.


Doesn't mean the uk won't adopt the same, or even better laws. Don't be so negative, the EU laws have to be repealed before we can replace them with our own. Not hard to understand.


----------



## Elles

You must have missed the live animal export protests that led to a port and the council being fined by the Eu and the years of protesting that can now be upped, since leaving the Eu gives us more chance of banning it. Have a look at Animal Aid, if you'd like to join.


----------



## Elles

The Eu has a record of ignoring animal welfare reg abuses in member countries and confirmed their view that animals are commodities and come under the banner of 'free movement of goods' both across Europe and thousands of miles outside its borders. Turkey being a large importer of livestock. It's a lucrative business and at the end of the day, for the Eu it's money first imo. Probably why the importance of uk money and the so called divorce bill, with rumours of 100bn wanted before progressing to other issues.


----------



## Elles

Gah, I do wish they'd get on with it. Do they actually want to leave?


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> You must have missed the live animal export protests that led to a port and the council being fined by the Eu and the years of protesting that can now be upped, since leaving the Eu gives us more chance of banning it. Have a look at Animal Aid, if you'd like to join.


Maybe you should look at the UK court record when it comes to animal welfare. It's not encouraging. In brief, if it's commonplace doesn't matter what the law says. Money talks just as much in the UK. It will be even more so after we leave the EU. Examples such as the deal with a car manufacturer being one example already.


----------



## Elles

You don't like the uk, or uk government very much do you? At least when we leave the Eu a few politicians will lose their jobs and the public won't be able to vote politicians like Farage into cushty positions as MEPs. Surely all Remainers must see that as one of the benefits, even if they can't think of any more.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> No I can't and there's a difference between optimism and joining campaigns to push for it, as I've suggested members of the public now do. Badger culling and the continuing use of neonicotinoids were brought about by pressure from wealthy groups, if the same wealthy groups want to maintain or improve standards to avoid being undercut, they'll be on the side of right this time.


OK, I'll bite. How, exactly, do you maintain or improve standards to AVOID being undercut?

The whole philosophy of undercutting is that you find a cheaper way of doing something (generally by cutting corners, industrialising, lowering standards or moving production to where there are less stringent laws and/or lower wages) and then offer your products at a lower rate than your rivals. So higher standards in welfare, which typically come with significantly increased costs and high end consumer prices, make it easier to be undercut by less altruistic rivals.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Democracy includes changing minds as well as campaigning even when you are in a minority. Those who complain about those campaigning against leaving are actually the ones who are pushing to stifle democracy.


If the minority are those who believe they are morally right and therefore think its acceptable to accuse and abuse those who disagree until they remain silent because they can't face the nastiness, then no , that's not changing minds and that's not democracy .

Disclaimer . This is not aimed at anyone on PF nor am I accusing anyone of doing this .


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> OK, I'll bite. How, exactly, do you maintain or improve standards to AVOID being undercut?


By Britain having high enough standards to refuse cheap imports. E.g. The bleached chicken or battery farmed hens. If we lower standards here and let it in, our farmers won't be able to compete and will have to lower their standards of welfare and farm more intensively. They would rather the uk maintain standards, so they aren't undercut by cheap meat from abroad that is more intensively farmed than they are currently permitted or set up to do. Keep our standards up, or even improve on them, keeps the competition out.


----------



## Elles

The couple of public figures who are now saying Brexit is bad, are saying just that. Not, 'I was wrong Eu is good', but 'this government is making Brexit bad'. What did they expect? A government who didn't want to leave the Eu, thought we'd all vote to Remain and had no concrete plan, were told to leave anyway. They aren't going to find it smooth sailing. 

All things considered David Davis is doing the best job he can imo. The Eu know the government don't really want to leave too, they aren't stupid and they too don't want Britain to leave. We're a pretty lucrative member. If we weren't there'd be no huge divorce bill and talk of educating the public, I bet.

Be an entirely different story if we were one of the poorer nations wanting to leave. They'd probably then be saying good riddance and btw we'll have our money back and any refugees landing on your shores are all yours, bye bye.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> If we lower standards here and let it in, our farmers won't be able to compete and will have to lower their standards of welfare and farm more intensively.


Our farmers wouldn't be able to compete even if they did lower standards.
They know if the cheap food lobby wins, they'll be out of business. Higher welfare has got to be the way to go, it's just convincing the paying public.

I'm quite sure that 99% or more of farmers wouldn't want lower standards for their animals, why would they?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> You don't like the uk, or uk government very much do you? At least when we leave the Eu a few politicians will lose their jobs and the public won't be able to vote politicians like Farage into cushty positions as MEPs. Surely all Remainers must see that as one of the benefits, even if they can't think of any more.


Yeah, I'm sure German people who refused to embrace Adolf's vision of Germany in the 1930s were met with the same hostility.....


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> Yeah, I'm sure German people who refused to embrace Adolf's vision of Germany in the 1930s were met with the same hostility.....


Oh good grief!


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> Our farmers wouldn't be able to compete even if they did lower standards.
> They know if the cheap food lobby wins, they'll be out of business. Higher welfare has got to be the way to go, it's just convincing the paying public.
> 
> I'm quite sure that 99% or more of farmers wouldn't want lower standards for their animals, why would they?


Totally agree. You say it a lot better than I did.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Yeah, I'm sure German people who refused to embrace Adolf's vision of Germany in the 1930s were met with the same hostility.....


You what? I make a joke about Farage being out of a job and that equates to Adolf shooting, imprisoning and hanging people who didn't fit in with his brave new world. Sorry, but :Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Our farmers wouldn't be able to compete even if they did lower standards.
> They know if the cheap food lobby wins, they'll be out of business. Higher welfare has got to be the way to go, *it's just convincing the paying public*.
> 
> I'm quite sure that 99% or more of farmers wouldn't want lower standards for their animals, why would they?


Good luck with that. How long have we been trying to teach people, for example, that smoking is not a good idea? Or that getting drunk and driving is stupid? Or most blokes that they should read manuals BEFORE breaking out the screwdrivers. The list of scenarios that prove people don't/won't listen is pretty much endless.

If cheap is all you can afford, cheap is what you'll buy.
If you'd rather spend your money on something else, cheap is what you'll buy.
If you don't have a local butcher or farm shop, then you'll probably have to go to the supermarkets anyway (unless you can afford delivered-to-your-door specialist stuff), and generally speaking cheap is what THEY buy (all about the profit, remember?)

The UK depends on food imports. That is not going to change. If our farmers can't compete with cheap and don't want to lower their welfare, they go out of business, which would leave us even more reliant on imports. If other countries decide to say "as part of a trade deal, we want to import our food products cleaply" there's not much we can do about it, especially if that country is the USA on which TM and her buddies appear to be pinning most of their hopes. And we all know how poor their food standards are.

On the plus side, we might get to the scenario where housing Ts and Cs barring the keeping of birds and pigs are banned - I'd quite like to keep chickens, but the house deeds won't let me...


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Na, they are one and the same. Pop into a local office to see your NFU group secretary and you'll be speaking to the manager of the insurance business. There is no separation between the two. You'll have to trust me on this, I did have a contract with them for thirteen years and visited every office many times. Over the years they have also bought other insurance companies. Insurance is the main business of the NFU, farming is a tiny inconvenience that gives them a usp.
> 
> Not that it really matters one way or the other, just wanted to put a bit of perspective on what the NFU's interests actually are.


You're wrong (as per) This is how the NFU describe their remit - no mention of insurance. Its a farming lobby group closely associated to NFU mutual.

https://www.nfuonline.com/about-us/

*About us.*

*The NFU is the only organisation that champions all farmers and growers in England and Wales.*

We're here to give you a voice and protect your way of life now and in the future. Our purpose is to champion British agriculture and horticulture, to campaign for a stable and sustainable future for British farmers and to secure the best possible deal for our members.

Our strength is in our numbers. With in-excess of 55,000 members, we are heard when it counts - locally, nationally and internationally. Every single member matters and makes the NFU stronger. A stronger NFU can be more influential, achieve more and give us a more powerful and unified lobbying voice.

Today, the NFU is the most successful representation body for agriculture and horticulture with members covering two-thirds of the agricultural land in England and Wales. You can rest assured that the NFU will continue to be champions of British agriculture with the same conviction and passion we have shown during the last century.

Whether you're a grower, farm livestock or have a mixed holding, we're here for you. Support your industry, protect your future. Join the NFU today!



rona said:


> Our farmers wouldn't be able to compete even if they did lower standards.
> They know if the cheap food lobby wins, they'll be out of business. Higher welfare has got to be the way to go, it's just convincing the paying public.
> 
> I'm quite sure that 99% or more of farmers wouldn't want lower standards for their animals, why would they?


If I recall rightly, one of the reasons you wanted out of the EU was the treat posed by TTIP? Yet you said nothing like this then about our farmers. So you must have realised that TTIP meant a race to the bottom for standards. Now we have TTIP on steriods staring us the face - what has changed? Why do you think a trade deal with the US will be ok now but not then?. Don't forget May wouldn't rule out lowering standards.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Yeah, I'm sure German people who refused to embrace Adolf's vision of Germany in the 1930s were met with the same hostility.....





Elles said:


> You what? I make a joke about Farage being out of a job and that equates to Adolf shooting, imprisoning and hanging people who didn't fit in with his brave new world. Sorry, but :Hilarious


Whilst we're on the subject!


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> The UK depends on food imports. That is not going to change


No it's not, it'll go on much the same. I can't see what all the fuss is about. Ruddy scaremongering remainers again


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> You what? I make a joke about Farage being out of a job and that equates to Adolf shooting, imprisoning and hanging people who didn't fit in with his brave new world. Sorry, but :Hilarious


 :Hilarious 
amazing , the thread about the new royal baby gets closed because the topic turned to harry's parentage and yet this thread with crazy nazi /hitler references and other stuff is allowed to run for 565 pages so far .


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> You're wrong (as per) This is how the NFU describe their remit - no mention of insurance. Its a farming lobby group closely associated to NFU mutual.
> 
> https://www.nfuonline.com/about-us/
> 
> *About us.*
> 
> *The NFU is the only organisation that champions all farmers and growers in England and Wales.*
> 
> We're here to give you a voice and protect your way of life now and in the future. Our purpose is to champion British agriculture and horticulture, to campaign for a stable and sustainable future for British farmers and to secure the best possible deal for our members.
> 
> Our strength is in our numbers. With in-excess of 55,000 members, we are heard when it counts - locally, nationally and internationally. Every single member matters and makes the NFU stronger. A stronger NFU can be more influential, achieve more and give us a more powerful and unified lobbying voice.
> 
> Today, the NFU is the most successful representation body for agriculture and horticulture with members covering two-thirds of the agricultural land in England and Wales. You can rest assured that the NFU will continue to be champions of British agriculture with the same conviction and passion we have shown during the last century.
> 
> Whether you're a grower, farm livestock or have a mixed holding, we're here for you. Support your industry, protect your future. Join the NFU today!
> 
> If I recall rightly, one of the reasons you wanted out of the EU was the treat posed by TTIP? Yet you said nothing like this then about our farmers. So you must have realised that TTIP meant a race to the bottom for standards. Now we have TTIP on steriods staring us the face - what has changed? Why do you think a trade deal with the US will be ok now but not then?. Don't forget May wouldn't rule out lowering standards.
> 
> View attachment 324283


I'm not wrong, which proves you can't believe everything you read on the internet when there is a real world out there. Pop into your local NFU office and find out for yourself.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> I'm not wrong, which proves you can't believe everything you read on the internet when there is a real world out there. Pop into your local NFU office and find out for yourself.


_
The NFU is closely associated with the insurance mutual company NFU Mutual, which is also based in __Warwickshi_re. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Farmers'_Union_of_England_and_Wales


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> amazing , the thread about the new royal baby gets closed because the topic turned to harry's parentage and yet this thread with crazy nazi /hitler references and other stuff is allowed to run for 565 pages so far .


Yes, I think it's starting to get out of control, about time it was closed. To many treads that don't always need to be closed are closed and this one is still running CRAZY.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> Yes, I think it's starting to get out of control, about time it was closed. To many treads that don't always need to be closed are closed and this one is still running CRAZY.


 Its the Mods decision but I wouldn't protest if it was shut . I think its damaging to PF, really . I don't know where people get there stamina from to keep this going , i just have to see the title and I feel knackered


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> Yes, I think it's starting to get out of control, about time it was closed. To many treads that don't always need to be closed are closed and this one is still running CRAZY.


Sabre Roads post referendum thread, Brexit what now?" has reached 483 pages!

Sorry to disappoint the Brexiteers but the anti nationalist sentiment remains very strong and not only on this forum.

If moderators choose to close this thread I would respect that decision but that wouldn't be the end of the Brexit matter, far from it.


----------



## Zaros

Happy Paws said:


> Yes, I think it's starting to get out of control, about time it was closed. To many treads that don't always need to be closed are closed and this one is still running CRAZY.


Cheer up, HP. The government has got everyone running round in ever decreasing circles, they're now in danger of disappearing up their own 4r53 holes.
With a bit of luck, they'll take this thread with them.


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> _The NFU is closely associated with the insurance mutual company NFU Mutual, which is also based in __Warwickshi_re. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Farmers'_Union_of_England_and_Wales


As I said you can't believe everything you read on the internet. They also have many branches in Scotland, Ireland and the Channel Islands. Trust me they are one and the same. If you want to find out for sure pop along to your local office and ask to speak to the insurance manager, then ask if you can see the group secretary, I promise you it'll be the same person.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> The Eu has a record of ignoring animal welfare reg abuses in member countries and confirmed their view that animals are commodities and come under the banner of 'free movement of goods' both across Europe and thousands of miles outside its borders. Turkey being a large importer of livestock. It's a lucrative business and at the end of the day, for the Eu it's money first imo. Probably why the importance of uk money and the so called divorce bill, with rumours of 100bn wanted before progressing to other issues.


It´s actually the other way round, EU first priority was to secure the rights of EU citizens, that is why that must be dealt before trade deals. Divorce bill is no rumour either, it is a fact that has been there from the beginning. Britain signed lots of deals with EU and enjoyed the benefits, and, like in any other contract, you enjoy the benefits for a price. You wanted to leave during those contratcs are still valid (and which were pretty beneficial for you), so do you really expect EU to say that no problem, we are happy to pay Britain´s share of the costs of the deals you made. This will affect only a short time, naturally, the time limit was 2020, which is very short, as you staying outside EU is going be much much longer.



Elles said:


> By Britain having high enough standards to refuse cheap imports. E.g. The bleached chicken or battery farmed hens. If we lower standards here and let it in, our farmers won't be able to compete and will have to lower their standards of welfare and farm more intensively. They would rather the uk maintain standards, so they aren't undercut by cheap meat from abroad that is more intensively farmed than they are currently permitted or set up to do. Keep our standards up, or even improve on them, keeps the competition out.


I so wish that this were true, but I´m afraid it is going to be opposite. Isn´t the idea at the moment even to bring back fox hunting etc.amd go back in legislation, not forward. I doubt very much that the majority will care a bit about animals rights, if the question is about cheap food compated to more expensive food.



Jesthar said:


> Good
> If cheap is all you can afford, cheap is what you'll buy.
> If you'd rather spend your money on something else, cheap is what you'll buy.
> If you don't have a local butcher or farm shop, then you'll probably have to go to the supermarkets anyway (unless you can afford delivered-to-your-door specialist stuff), and generally speaking cheap is what THEY buy (all about the profit, remember?)
> 
> The UK depends on food imports. That is not going to change. If our farmers can't compete with cheap and don't want to lower their welfare, they go out of business, which would leave us even more reliant on imports. If other countries decide to say "as part of a trade deal, we want to import our food products cleaply" there's not much we can do about it, especially if that country is the USA on which TM and her buddies appear to be pinning most of their hopes. And we all know how poor their food standards are.
> ...


This is the reality, just check what actually has been happening and what laws have been passed.

You do know that while you have been in EU, no one has stopped you from providing much better legislation and protection for animals than what you have now dome. EU only provides the minimum, and that is not very much indeed, I agree with you there. Still, it is way much better what WTO does, as that is f**l all.

Do you really think than animal lovers will have any say when push comes to shove and your politicians and business managers will choose whether to provide cheap food for the consumers from US etc or more expensive food from Britain or EU? Has the general opinion and political atmosphere become that much animal friendlier now after Brexit? Or are you about to undo the existing legislations and go backwards? What is the British people talking about? I doubt it is animal welfare, to be honest.

And even if EU is very slow and does way too little, it is actually doing something. What is US doing? Or Brazil? Australia? And above all, what do you know? Wishful thinking doesn´t really help, when it comes to money and politics.


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> Its the Mods decision but I wouldn't protest if it was shut . I think its damaging to PF, really . I don't know where people get there stamina from to keep this going , i just have to see the title and I feel knackered


I think a couple of people would have an awful lot of free time on their hands if it was closed


----------



## Elles

If I may, before it's closed, if it is.

1. Despite my misgivings, I didn't vote to leave the Eu. I didn't think it was the right time, or the right government and Gib's unique position with Spain just tipped my vote.

2. I didn't vote conservative and haven't since Maggie.

I'll probably vote to continue the process and leave, if there is another referendum though. I can't see any good coming out of staying in and I haven't seen anything to make me think any better of the Eu.

If the wealthy farmers and businesses want high standards in this country, just as they've managed to swing it to what they want before, that's likely what we'll get. Who wants to bring back fox hunting? Not the majority of 'cheap' public. In the case of welfare for farm animals keeping out cheap imports, it's the wealthy farmers who will be listened to and the public who support animal welfare for less altruistic reasons will be right there to support them. 

Maybe it will go the other way, in which case the world deserves what it gets and I'm glad I'm not long for it. New Zealand have improved animal welfare, they just need to stick to their own rules and close a couple of loopholes. It's still work in progress, but it is progress. They have banned live transport.

I spend most of my time with Elles and my horse, but I touch type, so a quick couple of posts between other activities takes me seconds. Apologies for swamping petforums with my Brexit opinions.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Apologies for swamping petforums with my Brexit opinions.


 Why are you apologising ? Its a discussion and your views are very welcome !


----------



## KittenKong

I didn't have to mention the H word...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-finance-minister-granddaughter-a7937126.html

Anyone still admit to looking up to this man? How do you feel about having the respect of fascist groups across Europe?

Still, having secured Brexit and contributed towards the Trump campaign he didn't succeed in France nor will he in Germany.


----------



## Elles

And both were MEPs. He wasn't that involved in Brexit from what I could see. He left that to others, once Cameron had called the referendum.


----------



## KittenKong

Saw this on Facebook earlier. Dennis Skinner was at one time someone I respected. I saw him speak during the Miners' strike and he was brilliant.

All my respect for him died after he publicly declared his support for Brexit.

Does he and other left wing Brexiteers not realise their support has contributed to the likes of Rees-Mogg out from behind and is now favourite to succeed TM as Prime Minister? That would never have happened had it not been for the narrow leave victory.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I didn't have to mention the H word...
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-finance-minister-granddaughter-a7937126.html
> 
> Anyone still admit to looking up to this man? How do you feel about having the respect of fascist groups across Europe?
> 
> Still, having secured Brexit and contributed towards the Trump campaign he didn't succeed in France nor will he in Germany.


Aren't the majority of the German people descended from some sort of Nazi?

Not their fault is it, what their ancestors were?

Most Australians are descended from criminals!
More than enough Americans are descended from people who traded slaves not so long ago.
We, we are descended from people who invaded other countries and took them over...................


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> I didn't have to mention the H word...
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-finance-minister-granddaughter-a7937126.html
> 
> Anyone still admit to looking up to this man? How do you feel about having the respect of fascist groups across Europe?
> 
> Still, having secured Brexit and contributed towards the Trump campaign he didn't succeed in France nor will he in Germany.


Scraping the barrel somewhat. I'm not sure you'll find many who support him. Yes, he instigated Brexit, but really wasn't much part of it.

It's really no surprise that he's speaking at a far right event against the EU, but it really has absolutely no bearing on us.

If you want to look into people's ancestry, you're going to turn up a whole lot of nastiness. Looking into hers, she's also related to the Dutch royal family and Karl Marx. Any relevance there?


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I think a couple of people would have an awful lot of free time on their hands if it was closed


You do realise you've made 8,000 posts in just 2 years?



kimthecat said:


> Why are you apologising ? Its a discussion and your views are very welcome !


Dont worry @Elles, it clearly wasn't intended for you, you can post 24/7 you're not 'talking the country down'  Its only for those who believe in holding government to account & exposing this brexit shambles lol


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Scraping the barrel somewhat. I'm not sure you'll find many who support him. Yes, he instigated Brexit, but really wasn't much part of it.
> 
> It's really no surprise that he's speaking at a far right event against the EU, but it really has absolutely no bearing on us.
> 
> If you want to look into people's ancestry, you're going to turn up a whole lot of nastiness. Looking into hers, she's also related to the Dutch royal family and Karl Marx. Any relevance there?


Of course it has a baring on us. We have a hard right authoritarian government in power trying to pull off a power grab via the repeal bill. Our country is on a very slippery slope, anyone who cant see this is wilfully blind.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 324340
> 
> 
> Saw this on Facebook earlier. Dennis Skinner was at one time someone I respected. I saw him speak during the Miners' strike and he was brilliant.
> 
> All my respect for him died after he publicly declared his support for Brexit.
> 
> Does he and other left wing Brexiteers not realise their support has contributed to the likes of Rees-Mogg out from behind and is now favourite to succeed TM as Prime Minister? That would never have happened had it not been for the narrow leave victory.


I still have big respect for ole Dennis, hes very principled. There is of course, an anti-neoliberal argument for leaving the EU but what we are going to end up with now is neoliberalism on steroids! And we cant make progressive changes to the EU for the outside of it. Dennis is playing into the hands of the hard right I'm afraid when hes normally so astute..


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> You do realise you've made 8,000 posts in just 2 years?
> 
> Dont worry @Elles, it clearly wasn't intended for you, you can post 24/7 you're not 'talking the country down'  Its only for those who believe in holding government to account & exposing this brexit shambles lol


Not just on this post. I'm most active in dog chat. It's a pet forum after all


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Of course it has a baring on us. We have a hard right authoritarian government in power trying to pull off a power grab via the repeal bill. Our country is on a very slippery slope, anyone who cant see this is wilfully blind.


He is not an MP


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Not just on this post. I'm most active in dog chat. It's a pet forum after all


So its ok if you have an awful lot of free time to post, so long as mostly about pets then? lol Personally I don't believe in censorship, its a threat to democracy.



MiffyMoo said:


> I think a couple of people would have an awful lot of free time on their hands if it was closed





MiffyMoo said:


> He is not an MP


He may not be an MP (& not for want of trying lol) but he & his party have had a HUGH influence on the tory party & on our politics. The tories have adopted UKIP policies, we have the most hard right government ever. Farage & his ideology are a danger to society.

What are your thoughts on the repeal bill?


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> So its ok if you have an awful lot of free time to post, so long as mostly about pets then? lol Personally I don't believe in censorship, its a threat to democracy.
> 
> He may not be an MP (& not for want of trying lol) but he & his party have had a HUGH influence on the tory party & on our politics. The tories have adopted UKIP policies, we have the most hard right government ever. Farage & his ideology are a danger to society.


Rubbish. If the left are so bothered about how hard right it is, why did Corbyn take the piss when May asked for everyone's input on Brexit? Maybe actually behaving like a politician, rather than trying to gain a few hundred likes on Twitter would have helped










Ps, I'm not trying to censor you; not terribly sure how you came to that dramatic conclusion


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I still have big respect for ole Dennis, hes very principled. There is of course, an anti-neoliberal argument for leaving the EU but what we are going to end up with now is neoliberalism on steroids! And we cant make progressive changes to the EU for the outside of it. Dennis is playing into the hands of the hard right I'm afraid when hes normally so astute..


Couldn't agree more.
I don't contribute much to the Sabre Roads Brexit-What Now? Thread but was compelled to comment on this contributor disheartened by Keith Sterner's announcement of a change of course, ie backing staying in the single market.


----------



## Elles

They're saying to stay in the single market for a transition period aren't they? Not forever. Unless they've changed again since I last read reports on it.

Isn't it a bit hopeful to want to stay in the Eu to try to change it. Should we anyway. That's changing people, opinions and practises of 27 other countries. Even if we could, I don't think we have the right to really and it seems a bit arrogant to think Britain should stay in the Eu club in order to change it. Especially with a low opinion of politicians, there's a risk they'll change it for the worse and that would affect the whole of Europe, not just the uk.

I think the brexiteers have got it wrong. People who want to stay in, could have a high opinion of the uk. Maybe even a higher one than they do, if they think Britain being in the Eu will change it for the better.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> If I may, before it's closed, if it is.
> 
> 1. Despite my misgivings, I didn't vote to leave the Eu. I didn't think it was the right time, or the right government and Gib's unique position with Spain just tipped my vote.
> 
> 2. I didn't vote conservative and haven't since Maggie.
> 
> I'll probably vote to continue the process and leave, if there is another referendum though. I can't see any good coming out of staying in and I haven't seen anything to make me think any better of the Eu.
> 
> If the wealthy farmers and businesses want high standards in this country, just as they've managed to swing it to what they want before, that's likely what we'll get. Who wants to bring back fox hunting? Not the majority of 'cheap' public. In the case of welfare for farm animals keeping out cheap imports, it's the wealthy farmers who will be listened to and the public who support animal welfare for less altruistic reasons will be right there to support them.
> 
> Maybe it will go the other way, in which case the world deserves what it gets and I'm glad I'm not long for it. New Zealand have improved animal welfare, they just need to stick to their own rules and close a couple of loopholes. It's still work in progress, but it is progress. They have banned live transport.
> 
> I spend most of my time with Elles and my horse, but I touch type, so a quick couple of posts between other activities takes me seconds. Apologies for swamping petforums with my Brexit opinions.


Why an earth should you apology? You try to figure out how you actually could benefit and make e.g. your animal legislation better. That is a grand goal and if more people would be as active and conserned about animal rights, it might even happen. But I just haven´t seen much progress happening, as animal welfare has not been on the agenda much in Brexit, and IMO, will very likely be ignored. I wish I were wrong, as it would be a great target for EU too to do the same. So lets hope I´m just too pessimistic about the goodwill of politicians and businesses and UK will get a really good legislation to protect animals after Brexit.


----------



## Elles

Why apologise? Because if I too keep posting it helps keep the wheel turning, when probably the right thing to do would be to stop picking at the scab.


----------



## kimthecat

MiffyMoo said:


> Not just on this post. I'm most active in dog chat. It's a pet forum


I think people forget its a pet forums sometimes! It's good to post in other sections because it keeps the forum going , the more posts the better . So many forums have died/ are dying a death
Forums become out of kilter if people just post regarding their agenda and don't balance it with other posts .

@Elles I'm not trying to get this thread closed , I was pondering the wisdom of it, it was actually a Remainer who suggested it be closed but I believe its up to the Mods .

You are a remainer, I always read your posts and also remainers Mrs Zee's, Arnie's and Jesthar's , and I have learnt from them . 
A couple of Brexiteers seem to be trolling so I rarely read their posts . It sort of balances out .


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> amazing , the thread about the new royal baby gets closed because the topic turned to harry's parentage and yet this thread with crazy nazi /hitler references and other stuff is allowed to run for 565 pages so far .


Have suggested the same about this thread and been fobbed off each time. Didn't know the royal pregnancy thread had been closed.


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> It's a pet forum after all


Supposedly; tho' many of the usual suspects on this thread are never seen in the pet sections as far as one can see.


----------



## Guest

This thread is all about politics and when Hitler, Trump, Clinton, Putin, Le Penn, Farage, Corbyn or May or any other party leader is talked about, it is about politics. Calling someone "Hitler" when talking about e.g. cats would not be about politics, it would be only an insult. That´s the difference.

It would be really odd to close this thread, as this is the most current and relevant thread affecting everyone´s lives in one way or the other, and most likely affecting the welfare of animals alike. Why an earth would anyone want to close this? I understand many find politics really boring, but no one is forced to read this. (or even vote).

Personally I`d never give any politician a free pass to do what ever, as absolute power will corrupt most people. Facts are so hard to come By, and I am really grateful that some have the energy to dig up all the links, so I can understand a bit more what is happening. Discussion is good and I have not seen anything more bitter or meaner posted on this thread than I have seen on e.g. Dog´s Chat. No difference there IMO.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Isn't it a bit hopeful to want to stay in the Eu to try to change it. Should we anyway. That's changing people, opinions and practises of 27 other countries. Even if we could, I don't think we have the right to really and it seems a bit arrogant to think Britain should stay in the Eu club in order to change it. Especially with a low opinion of politicians, there's a risk they'll change it for the worse and that would affect the whole of Europe, not just the uk.


I have yet to meet anyone who says the EU is perfect and doesn't need to adapt and change. Same goes for the UK government and UK democracy as far as I am concerned. Simply getting the UK government and politicians in general to actually tell the truth would be a great start. Trouble is we cannot realistically hold the government accountable. Ah but we can kick them out at a general election but that isn't really holding them accountable. There will always be some other issue involved.

Nothing wrong with changing people's opinions. Happens all the time. Key for long term success is to do it through education not imposition. We did it with the idea of human rights as one example. Ignoring the fact that the UK now wants to leave partly as human rights are burdensome.


----------



## stockwellcat.

> *Ah but we can kick them out at a general election but that isn't really holding them accountable.*


True, but does it change anything voting another government in? No. We still get broken promises, u-turns, and more lies.

How many times has Corbyn u-turned since the referendum and recent General Election? How can he be trusted? At least the Conservatives have been consistent in saying we are leaving the EU and started negotiations with the EU. At least there won't be a GE for at least 5 years as the Government are under no obligation to call another one under the fixed term parliament act by which time Corbyn maybe gone as the opposition leader.



> Nothing wrong with changing people's opinions.


But people haven't changed their minds. Remainers want the UK to remain and most of them have accepted the results of the referendum now and Leavers want to leave. Anyway those that have accepted the results want the government to get on with it and get the UK to leave the EU.

I have had a break from pf. Didn't change my mind during the break I had. I still want the UK to leave the EU as I feel overall the UK will be better off outside of the EU.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Rubbish. If the left are so bothered about how hard right it is, why did Corbyn take the piss when May asked for everyone's input on Brexit? Maybe actually behaving like a politician, rather than trying to gain a few hundred likes on Twitter would have helped
> 
> View attachment 324374
> 
> 
> Ps, I'm not trying to censor you; not terribly sure how you came to that dramatic conclusion


The irony of this statement. Mays whole election campaign was based on scaremongering & lies about Corbyn. She rarely answers a straight forward question & when Corbyn challenges her governments record in PMQs she resorts to personal attacks on him. Deflection,lies, deflection, lies. Shes an absolute joke of a politician - never mind a PM. She's almost as bad as Trump. No wonder the two have aligned.

So rather than engage in whataboutery, why not try looking objectively at the language this government is using? Can't you see they are trying to stifle dissent? Why not find out what the repeal bill will actually mean for us? Watch Keir Starmer forensic demolition of the bill, whatch him destroy that hapless Davis.

See what legal experts are saying about the bill. This is a right wing power grab, we must hold the government to account our democracy is at stake like never before.






Then why bother saying this? 


MiffyMoo said:


> I think a couple of people would have an awful lot of free time on their hands if it was closed


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> They do oversee food assurance through The Red Tractor scheme etc. They also have farming advisers, for what they are worth!
> 
> https://www.nfuonline.com/membership/your-nfu-services/





Dr Pepper said:


> Thanks, I forgot they were responsible for the red tractor. And that's actually a good scheme and I only eat meat that is part of it.


Just picking up on this. The Red Tractor scheme is ranked lowest for animal welfare by CIWF.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The irony of this statement. Mays whole election campaign was based on scaremongering & lies about Corbyn. She rarely answers a straight forward question & when Corbyn challenges her governments record in PMQs she resorts to personal attacks on him. Deflection,lies, deflection, lies. Shes an absolute joke of a politician - never mind a PM. She's almost as bad as Trump. No wonder the two have aligned.
> 
> So rather than engage in whataboutery, why not try looking objectively at the language this government is using? Can't you see they are trying to stifle dissent? Why not find out what the repeal bill will actually mean for us? Watch Keir Starmer forensic demolition of the bill, whatch him destroy that hapless Davis.
> 
> See what legal experts are saying about the bill. This is a right wing power grab, we must hold the government to account our democracy is at stake like never before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why bother saying this?


You do know the second reading will get through. There is cross party support in favour of this bill (including the DUP) and cross party support in favour of it not succeeding . But I have a feeling the whips will be busy.

Can I ask, who actually listens to the Labour party? Mr Corbyn is still campaigning for a General Election he lost and has changed his stance so many times I have lost count since the referendum last year and general election this year. There won't be another GE for 5 years under the fixed term parliament act so the conservatives are in for at least this time. Labour will have to get used to it and so will the other parties.


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> Just picking up on this. The Red Tractor scheme is ranked lowest for animal welfare by CIWF.
> 
> .


Actually is wasn't so much the animal welfare issue why I started only buying red tractor meat, it was when the old horse meat marlarkey started that I became aware of it and I don't want to eat horse, I also approve of supporting British meat wherever possible. It's better than nothing I guess.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> But I have a feeling the whips will be busy.


Which is a demonstration of one thing wrong with out democratic system. MP's should be able to represent the people who voted them in. That applies to whoever is "in power" at the time.



> Can I ask, who actually listens to the Labour party?


Can I ask, who in their right minds listens to the lies of the conservative party?


----------



## stockwellcat.

> Can I ask, who in their right minds listens to the lies of the conservative party?


Same could be said about Labour. But that's history and who can trust the Labour Party at the moment? Sorry but I am finding it hard keeping up with the Labour Party at the moment because everytime I catch up they change their minds on their stance. So are they any better than the Conservatives? No.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Can I ask, who actually listens to the Labour party? Mr Corbyn is still campaigning for a General Election he lost and has changed his stance so many times I have lost count since the referendum last year and general election this year. There won't be another GE for 5 years under the fixed term parliament act so the conservatives are in for at least this time. Labour will have to get used to it and so will the other parties.


I think it's clear many did listen to Corbyn in spite of the pure hatred shown towards him. He lost I agree but the intention to destroy the Labour Party and other opposition clearly backfired. Instead May destroyed herself with yet another unnecessary gamble by a Tory PM with considerable cost to the taxpayer. Yet she refuses to back down at the present time as the previously seldomly heard of Jacob Rees-Mogg is likely to succeed her as PM.

Yes, I can just see him at Glastonbury appealing to the youth dressed in top hat and tails introducing a string quartet playing, "Land of Hope and Glory".

It's hardly surprising some compare him to Walter the Softy in, "The Beano".

A softy he is not. He's openly against abortion rights even in the cases of rape.

And another thing, despite TM bribing the DUP of their support and votes for around £1.5bn I wonder what they would have to say about the idea of allowing NI continued EU rights with the land border being on mainland England in order to avoid a hard border with the EU/ROI?

Effectively that would be a step towards a united Ireland.

And you think this minority government will be around for five years? You might be right of course but UK matters appear not to be as strong and stable as believed, let alone the relationship with the EU which is becoming more hostile by the minute.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have voiced my opinion. I'll leave it there as I promised myself not to get entangled in this endless debate but will make my opinion known again when I feel necessary.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> I'll leave it there as I promised myself not to get entangled in this endless debate


Many of us can relate to that, @stockwellcat.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You do know the second reading will get through. There is cross party support in favour of this bill (including the DUP) and cross party support in favour of it not succeeding . But I have a feeling the whips will be busy.
> 
> Can I ask, who actually listens to the Labour party? Mr Corbyn is still campaigning for a General Election he lost and has changed his stance so many times I have lost count since the referendum last year and general election this year. There won't be another GE for 5 years under the fixed term parliament act so the conservatives are in for at least this time. Labour will have to get used to it and so will the other parties.


No surprise you don't care that the repeal bill will give excessive powers to a minority government to change laws without scrutiny.

I see what 'Taking our country back' meant now - it meant from the people.

If only all politicians had the integrity & gravitas of Caroline Lucas, we might have a chance.


*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* Sep 6

I'll be voting against the deeply flawed & dangerous #*RepealBill* on Monday - my cross-party amendment sets out the reasons why #*Brexit*















*w*




Dr Pepper said:


> Actually is wasn't so much the animal welfare issue why I started only buying  red tractor meat, it was when the old horse meat marlarkey started that I became aware of it and I don't want to eat horse, I also approve of supporting British meat wherever possible. It's better than nothing I guess.


Fair enough, I just assumed you were concerned about animal welfare.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> The irony of this statement. Mays whole election campaign was based on scaremongering & lies about Corbyn. She rarely answers a straight forward question & when Corbyn challenges her governments record in PMQs she resorts to personal attacks on him. Deflection,lies, deflection, lies. Shes an absolute joke of a politician - never mind a PM. She's almost as bad as Trump. No wonder the two have aligned.
> 
> So rather than engage in whataboutery, why not try looking objectively at the language this government is using? Can't you see they are trying to stifle dissent? Why not find out what the repeal bill will actually mean for us? Watch Keir Starmer forensic demolition of the bill, whatch him destroy that hapless Davis.
> 
> See what legal experts are saying about the bill. This is a right wing power grab, we must hold the government to account our democracy is at stake like never before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why bother saying this?


It wasn't whataboutery, but you crack on if it makes you happy.

I think Corbyn has an awful lot of front to complain about other's track records when he's u turning so often, we're getting dizzy.

I agree with you, I don't like what I've heard about the bill, and I'm sure it will be voted down


----------



## KittenKong

Is this really what Brexit is all about? Are Brexiteers calling for the EU flag to be banned?

Looks like it to me.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ms-bbc-royal-albert-hall-london-a7938206.html


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nty-views-from-the-hospitality-industry#img-1


----------



## KittenKong

An excellent article here from the Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...478688d23b4_story.html?utm_term=.f003097159c3


----------



## Elles

Yeah I'm sure people were furious, according to the newspapers people get furious about the slightest thing.

16 hours a day with no time to eat, says the hotel article. Great job advertisement. Don't these people even realise they're being exploited? I don't see that any employer should expect workers to put in those kind of hours. They should offer decent pay and conditions to their workers. 16 hour days, with no time to eat isn't it.


----------



## Elles

When will they realise. People wanted to leave the Eu before all the lies and spin. That's why there was a referendum in the first place. The Washington Post are a bit late to the party. No one believed that whatever million would actually go to the NHS and if people believed that this government would make leaving a walk in the park, they were sadly mistaken. UKIP wouldn't have bothered with article 50 and negotiations, the day after the referendum they would have just left and worried about the details later.

Yet people say this government are now the same as ukip and taken ukip policy. Lol.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> When will they realise. People wanted to leave the Eu before all the lies and spin. That's why there was a referendum in the first place.


 You beat me to it and worded this perfectly. Thank you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So today I switched on the news and lone behold it was going on about Blair yet again. He thinks that he can negotiate something Cameron tried to negotiate and failed to get from the EU before the referendum. 

I have now switched the TV channel over so I don't have to listen to this rubbish.

What makes remainers think that Blair can achieve something the EU said no to and Cameron failed to get from them?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Yeah I'm sure people were furious, according to the newspapers people get furious about the slightest thing.
> 
> 16 hours a day with no time to eat, says the hotel article. Great job advertisement. Don't these people even realise they're being exploited? I don't see that any employer should expect workers to put in those kind of hours. They should offer decent pay and conditions to their workers. 16 hour days, with no time to eat isn't it.


I agree with you on that. They are laws against this exploitation you mention. Overseas employees are subject to the same rights as anyone, to pay less than the minimum wage is against the law.

The only difference post Brexit is people from the UK will be expected to take their place once the "undesirable" foreigners are forced to leave having been declared illegal come April 2019. Before you argue nothing will change how many of these employees can afford over £1K and time to fill out an 80 page form?

They'll be subjected to even worse conditions as worker's rights and "No fault dismissals'" become the norm in a glorious "Britain for the British" nation.

Glory hallelujah.


----------



## Elles

Well let's hope the government stick to their promises to Eu citizens. Not that I think Eu citizens should stay and be exploited, but I do hope that one good thing to come out of this will be that there will be competition in recruitment and workers will be treated better as a result.

I agree that this government doesn't have a great track record on keeping promises, e.g. The ivory ban, but if enough people want it, they also have a track record in doing what people want, e.g. The u turn on the so called dementia tax.

People have fought for their rights over many years, I can't see them giving them up as easily as some seem to think really.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> When will they realise. People wanted to leave the Eu before all the lies and spin. That's why there was a referendum in the first place. The Washington Post are a bit late to the party. No one believed that whatever million would actually go to the NHS and if people believed that this government would make leaving a walk in the park, they were sadly mistaken. UKIP wouldn't have bothered with article 50 and negotiations, the day after the referendum they would have just left and worried about the details later.
> 
> Yet people say this government are now the same as ukip and taken ukip policy. Lol.


I tell you why people wanted to leave the EU. They were brainwashed through being drip fed anti EU/EEC propaganda from the media for as long as I can remember.

Even the remain campaign failed to mention anything positive apart from the single market. Vote leave said the UK wouldn't be leaving that!



stockwellcat. said:


> So today I switched on the news and lone behold it was going on about Blair yet again. He thinks that he can negotiate something Cameron tried to negotiate and failed to get from the EU before the referendum.
> 
> I have now switched the TV channel over so I don't have to listen to this rubbish.
> 
> What makes remainers think that Blair can achieve something the EU said no to and Cameron failed to get from them?


Tony Blair is irrelevant and obsolete. I don't think anyone need worry about him.

More cherry-picking comments. Utterly useless. I agree with you on that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I tell you why people wanted to leave the EU. They were brainwashed through being drip fed anti EU/EEC propaganda from the media for as long as I can remember.


 That's not true. Alot of people including myself and people I know had already made their minds up before the referendum took place. The referendum was basically a chance to put our decisions down on paper. Sure it's true we didn't think the referendum would go the way it did until 5am, I think it was, on the day of the results.



> Tony Blair is irrelevant and obsolete. I don't think anyone need worry about him.


 I am glad you said that, many remainers love what he is saying but forget that Cameron has already tried negotiating with the EU on the subjects he keeps digging up.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Well let's hope the government stick to their promises to Eu citizens.


What promises? The only promise I heard was from Labour who guaranteed existing citizens would unilaterally be guaranteed the right to remain in the UK.

Oh yes, anyone else remember Boris Johnson promising an amnesty for existing "illegals" to remain in the UK?!

Yes, people have fought for their rights over the years. One reason why they are Trade Unions so detested by most Tories and their supported press.

The worrying thing about the repeal bill is the government may be able to inflict policies without parliamentary approval.
Issues like the Dementia Tax and repeal of the hunting with dogs act could arise again.


----------



## Elles

Vote leave wanted to keep access to the single market, not stay in it. A slight, but important difference that even if the brainwashed plebs didn't understand, the so called experts should. 

Just as the experts seem to have misinterpreted the propaganda that said there 'could be' more money for the NHS. There 'could be' a lot of things, 'could and might', doesn't mean 'will and is'.

Did you not read the recently leaked paper? The government have been saying for some time now that they intend to make it easier for Eu nationals already living here and that there will be new policy on new Eu nationals afterwards. They will not be treated exactly the same as international migrants. However, it's not sorted yet, the Eu and Britain still have to iron out the creases and come to agreement on the fine detail. One of the creases being 'lifetime' as opposed to 'unless you leave for 2 years'.


----------



## Bisbow

stockwellcat. said:


> That's not true. Alot of people including myself and people I know had already made their minds up before the referendum took place. The referendum was basically a chance to put our decisions down on paper. Sure it's true we didn't think the referendum would go the way it did until 5am, I think it was, on the day of the results.
> 
> I am glad you said that, many remainers love what he is saying but forget that Cameron has already tried negotiating with the EU on the subjects he keeps digging up.


I was not brainwashed either
I thought it was wrong to join in the first place 40 odd years ago and I have been proven right on many occasions, it is just a bunch of con artists looking after themselves

Tony Blair is only interested in what Tony Blair can get out of it for himself


----------



## Elles

Bisbow said:


> I was not brainwashes either
> I thought it was wrong to join in the first place 40 odd years ago and I have been proves right on many occasions, it is just a bunch of con artists looking after themselves


Got it in one.  One has to wonder who exactly has been brainwashed, if anyone.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Got it in one.  One has to wonder who exactly has been brainwashed, if anyone.


I sometimes wonder though. Of course not everyone is brainwashed and are able to make up their own minds.

But it's interesting how many I speak to almost recount word for word what they read in the press or see on the TV news!


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> I sometimes wonder though. Of course not everyone is brainwashed and are able to make up their own minds.
> 
> But it's interesting how many I speak to almost recount word for word what they read in the press or see on the TV news!


On both sides


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> I sometimes wonder though. Of course not everyone is brainwashed and are able to make up their own minds.
> 
> But it's interesting how many I speak to almost recount word for word what they read in the press or see on the TV news!


I'm probably more picky about who I interact with. :Hilarious


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> I'm probably more picky about who I interact with. :Hilarious


In my every day life I really don't give two hoots what anyone voted; if we know that we disagree, politically, we don't discuss.

I do have an acquaintance on FB who is polar opposite to me, and we have excellent debates, and both of us happily concede points to the other and there's never any animosity. In fact, just this morning we were both completely in agreement about something and ended up kind of high fiving each other


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I'm probably more picky about who I interact with. :Hilarious


Me too, but you can't change the people you work with!


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> When will they realise. People wanted to leave the Eu before all the lies and spin. That's why there was a referendum in the first place.


Hillarious. Anti EU propaganda has been going on for years. Look at Boris' history for example. The referendum wasn't really about this, it was Cameron trying to shut up parts of his own party. Internal party politics negatively affecting the country in the long term.



Elles said:


> Well let's hope the government stick to their promises to Eu citizens. Not that I think Eu citizens should stay and be exploited, but I do hope that one good thing to come out of this will be that there will be competition in recruitment and workers will be treated better as a result.


What promises, treat them as second class citizens never sure when they will be kicked out perhaps. There's a reason many are already leaving in important fields such as science. The idea of "british jobs for british people" perhaps, a phrase which has it's origins in facism. Oswald Mosley, leader of the British Union of Fascists in the 1930's stated "No more admitting of foreigners into this country to take British jobs". This despite the fact studies show immigrants aren't taking jobs, in fact immigrants create jobs overall. Of course I would love to know, what makes someone "British"?



> People have fought for their rights over many years, I can't see them giving them up as easily as some seem to think really.


One thing the referendum proved.. people ignore facts and believe spin. They are already giving up rights.



stockwellcat. said:


> I am glad you said that, many remainers love what he is saying but forget that Cameron has already tried negotiating with the EU on the subjects he keeps digging up.


No he didn't negotiate. He stated, give me this or else. David Davis is trying this technique and also failing.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Hillarious. Anti EU propaganda has been going on for years. Look at Boris' history for example. The referendum wasn't really about this, it was Cameron trying to shut up parts of his own party. Internal party politics negatively affecting the country in the long term.
> 
> What promises, treat them as second class citizens never sure when they will be kicked out perhaps. There's a reason many are already leaving in important fields such as science. The idea of "british jobs for british people" perhaps, a phrase which has it's origins in facism. Oswald Mosley, leader of the British Union of Fascists in the 1930's stated "No more admitting of foreigners into this country to take British jobs". This despite the fact studies show immigrants aren't taking jobs, in fact immigrants create jobs overall. Of course I would love to know, what makes someone "British"?
> 
> One thing the referendum proved.. people ignore facts and believe spin. They are already giving up rights.
> 
> No he didn't negotiate. He stated, give me this or else. David Davis is trying this technique and also failing.


British jobs for British workers, lately, came from Gordon Brown


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> British jobs for British workers, lately, came from Gordon Brown


It's the main theme from the current government trying to spin and scapegoat problems of the country. "Wherever possible, UK employers should look to meet their labour needs from resident labour.". Imposing a "skills tax" on companies who hire workers outside the UK. They are showing no respect for the people who are in the UK on good faith and have contributed much to UK society over the years. Now according to the government they are simply pawns and unwanted.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> What promises, treat them as second class citizens never sure when they will be kicked out perhaps. There's a reason many are already leaving in important fields such as science. The idea of "british jobs for british people" perhaps, a phrase which has it's origins in facism. Oswald Mosley, leader of the British Union of Fascists in the 1930's stated "No more admitting of foreigners into this country to take British jobs". This despite the fact studies show immigrants aren't taking jobs, in fact immigrants create jobs overall. Of course I would love to know, what makes someone "British"?


So if the UK and EU come to some deal that's beneficial to both parties then new EU citizens may well be secure and welcome. All well and good.

If no deal is agreed then residency will be subject to the same terms, visas and limits that apply to other non-EU nationals wishing to come here (and vice-a-versa). Seems absolutely right and proper, why should EU citizens get ongoing preferential treatment when we are no longer part of the club?

They wouldn't be second class citizens at all, merely on the same footing as other nations.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> It wasn't whataboutery, but you crack on if it makes you happy.
> 
> I think Corbyn has an awful lot of front to complain about other's track records when he's u turning so often, we're getting dizzy.
> 
> I agree with you, I don't like what I've heard about the bill, and I'm sure it will be voted down


 OK then. Well no party was going give their input & help May out of this mess knowing the tories track record of scapegoating others for their failures & their terrible policies. Be accessories to them leading the UK into the abyss? I don't think any of the party leaders are that stupid. Let the tories own this mess of their making.

May is a laughing stock with her u turns. Her _uncosted _manifesto is crammed with them. The government actually believed people hated Corbyn so much & wanted a tory brexit so bad they could get away with putting any [email protected] in the manifesto.

Do you not think government must be held to account? I don't understand why all the focus on Corbyn when the tories are tearing this country apart. Labour aren't in power & haven't been for 7 years. Its exactly the same with Trump supporters they go on & on about Hillarys emails to deflect away from the damage Trump is doing their country. Its unbelievable.

The repeal may or may not pass, but doesn't the tories attempt to pass it prove what a dangerously authoritarian government we have? The bill is an attempted power grab pure & simple. Taking back control another brexit lie as this minority government seeks to give themselves unprecedented powers & bypass parliament. Everyone who believes in democracy, left & right, must fight it tooth & nail.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> OK then. Well no party was going give their input & help May out of this mess knowing the tories track record of scapegoating others for their failures & their terrible policies. Be accessories to them leading the UK into the abyss? I don't think any of the party leaders are that stupid. Let the tories own this mess of their making.
> 
> May is a laughing stock with her u turns. Her _uncosted _manifesto is crammed with them. The government actually believed people hated Corbyn so much & wanted a tory brexit so bad they could get away with putting any [email protected] in the manifesto.
> 
> Do you not think government must be held to account? I don't understand why all the focus on Corbyn when the tories are tearing this country apart. Labour aren't in power & haven't been for 7 years. Its exactly the same with Trump supporters they go on & on about Hillarys emails to deflect away from the damage Trump is doing their country. Its unbelievable.
> 
> The repeal may or may not pass, but doesn't the tories attempt to pass it prove what a dangerously authoritarian government we have? The bill is an attempted power grab pure & simple. Taking back control another brexit lie as this minority government seeks to give themselves unprecedented powers & bypass parliament. Everyone who believes in democracy, left & right, must fight it tooth & nail.


I've already said I don't like it, and true to form you still keep lecturing. If you want people to actually listen to you and not either scroll straight past your posts or immediately get their hackles up, try giving an inch.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Is this really what Brexit is all about? Are Brexiteers calling for the EU flag to be banned?
> 
> Looks like it to me.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ms-bbc-royal-albert-hall-london-a7938206.html
> View attachment 324525
> View attachment 324526


It was lovely to see so many EU flags at the proms & so many people on the march. This is my favourite placard.














KittenKong said:


> An excellent article here from the Washington Post.
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...478688d23b4_story.html?utm_term=.f003097159c3
> View attachment 324532


That is indeed a great excellent article in the Washington Post. Its well worth copying.

But in Britain right now, something different is unfolding. During the referendum last year, politicians advocating their country's departure from the European Union gave some specific assurances. Some derived from ignorance; as it turned out, few of them really understood how the E.U. works. Others were lies, which they knew to be lies at the time.

Because they didn't expect to win that campaign, they didn't expect either their ignorance or their dishonesty to be revealed. But then they won - and now it's happening.

The most egregious lie was about money. During the campaign, leading Brexiteers drove around the country in large red buses, emblazoned with a slogan: "We send the EU 350 million pounds a week, let's fund our NHS [National Health Service] instead." This was a very influential argument, as the Brexit campaign managers have admitted. It was also an invented number - Britain does not send the E.U. 350 million pounds a week, as fact-checkers showed over and over. Some of those on the winning side admitted as much after the campaign

But now, instead of receiving "350 million pounds a week," negotiators are trapped in an argument about how much money Britain owes Europe - for budgetary promises not kept, for agreements signed and not honored. More ominously, the British government is just now realizing that leaving the European single market, which is far more than an ordinary free-trade zone, will cost it in other ways, too. Jointly designed European agencies and arrangements may now have to be re-created, at vast expense, from scratch: pharmaceutical and nuclear regulators, for example. It is possible that a vast new customs service, complete with parking lots at the border, computer systems and customs agents, will be needed to cope with new tariff regimes once Britain is outside the European customs union. In the long term, Britain will have more bureaucracy, and less money to spend on the NHS.

The second falsehood, frequently repeated during the campaign, was that leaving the single market would be fast, simple and easy. Liam Fox, now Britain's top trade negotiator, said a new trade deal with Europe would be "the easiest in human history." David Davis, now the minister in charge of the whole process, declared that "we can do deals . . . and we can do them quickly." With breathtaking insouciance and eye-watering obliviousness, others implied that all sorts of trading arrangements with countries all over the world could be ready in a matter of months.

In practice, more than a year has passed since the referendum and nearly six months have passed since Britain invoked Article 50, the "exiting the E.U." procedure. During that time, almost no progress has been made. The British government itself is divided about its own position, which makes it difficult to talk to Brussels. This Last week, Davis told the House of Commons - to howls of derisory laughter - that "nobody pretended [Brexit] would be easy." It's as if he has actually forgotten that he himself repeatedly pretended exactly that

What happens next is unclear. We know that the Brexiteers' promises were hollow. Their assessments were wrong. Whatever remaining credibility this government still has should have vanished. Still, elections are complicated things, party loyalties are strong and there are other issues in play. During the referendum campaign, voters weren't bothered by facts. During the recent snap elections, they seemed uneasier about the ruling party and refused to give it an absolute majority. Will the Brexiteers now be further punished at the ballot box? We'll see.

The answer matters, because a parallel moment is about to arrive in the United States. As a candidate, Donald Trump also made some very specific electoral promises, including, for example, the construction of a wall along the Mexican border, to be paid for with Mexican money. It didn't matter how many Mexican politicians denied that this would happen; Trump kept repeating the promise. Now the budget battles are looming and, unsurprisingly, Mexico seems no more likely to pay for a border wall than Brexit is to free up 350 million pounds a week for Britain. Will Trump's voters punish him for failing to do what he said he would do? We'll see about that too


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I've already said I don't like it, and true to form you still keep lecturing. If you want people to actually listen to you and not either scroll straight past your posts or immediately get their hackles up, try giving an inch.


Fair dos. I will try harder.


----------



## Elles

Why does Theresa May u-turn? If they're doing their own thing, riding roughshod over everyone and power grabbing, that's not really compatible with u-turns. Clearly she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. You want a prime minister who can change policy and her mind, but then denigrate her when she does. Makes no sense to me.

Anyone who wanted to could follow Kitten Kong's link, read it and discuss it, which we already have.

Sadly there wasn't even close to enough marchers to make a difference. They needed previously known as Leave voters and speakers to join. A lot more than the handful who went to see Bob Geldof and a lib dem mp. Jeremy Corbyn would do a better job imo and rally more. I think you should be disappointed, not pleased. Over half a million protested on the countryside march, over 2 million attend Notting hill, but a positive estimate of 50,000 turned up for this march. There are 3 million Eu citizens living in the uk who could have gone to it themselves. Poor turnout in my view and according to reports mainly white middles. Poor show chaps. I expected more.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Sadly there wasn't even close to enough marchers to make a difference. They needed previously known as Leave voters and speakers to join. A lot more than the handful who went to see Bob Geldof and a lib dem mp. Jeremy Corbyn would do a better job imo and rally more. I think you should be disappointed, not pleased. Over half a million protested on the countryside march, over 2 million attend Notting hill, but a positive estimate of 50,000 turned up for this march. There are 3 million Eu citizens living in the uk who could have gone to it themselves. Poor turnout in my view and according to reports mainly white middles. Poor show chaps. I expected more.


Personally I was trying to avoid mentioning the protest yesterday which I didn't know happened until I saw the news this morning. It was a poor turn out considering the remainers keep saying there cause is getting bigger, didn't seem like it with only a turn out of around 50,000. Still waiting to see *all* those that voted remain in the referendum to turn out to one of these protests as it hasn't happened yet.

This is why I try avoid mentioning the protests as they are just a small amount of people that show up and they do get me riled up because of all the disruption they cause tourists visiting our country and the people that live near where they take place.

Oh well I'll be quiet now :Muted


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> So if the UK and EU come to some deal that's beneficial to both parties then new EU citizens may well be secure and welcome. All well and good.


Well what should have been simple is proving to be anything but as the government doesn't want the rights of EU nationals to be secure and fixed.



> If no deal is agreed then residency will be subject to the same terms, visas and limits that apply to other non-EU nationals wishing to come here (and vice-a-versa). Seems absolutely right and proper, why should EU citizens get ongoing preferential treatment when we are no longer part of the club?


Well we could start with they came here and many have lived here, contributing to society with rights which are now being removed. Many have applied for and recieved permanent residency. To me permanent residency is just that, not residency at the whim of the government.



> They wouldn't be second class citizens at all, merely on the same footing as other nations.


So someone hasn't actually paid attention to the leaked information.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Well we could start with they came here and many have lived here, contributing to society with rights which are now being removed.
> 
> .


Just as UK ex-pats (and every other ex-pat from wherever) in the USA, Australia, New Zealand etc etc etc are living right now. And obviously currently not forgetting the UK ex-pats in the EU of course. No guarantees at all as to what the future holds and that's the chance you take.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Just as UK ex-pats (and every other ex-pat from wherever) in the USA, Australia, New Zealand etc etc etc are living right now. And obviously currently not forgetting the UK ex-pats in the EU of course. No guarantees at all as to what the future holds and that's the chance you take.


Well as an UK ex-pat in the EU nobody is pushing for changes in our status. Our rights are protected from government whims by the EU. We aren't being told we are unwelcome or a burden on society. We are not being used as pawns.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Why does Theresa May u-turn? If they're doing their own thing, riding roughshod over everyone and power grabbing, that's not really compatible with u-turns. Clearly she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. You want a prime minister who can change policy and her mind, but then denigrate her when she does. Makes no sense to me.
> 
> Anyone who wanted to could follow Kitten Kong's link, read it and discuss it, which we already have.
> 
> Sadly there wasn't even close to enough marchers to make a difference. They needed previously known as Leave voters and speakers to join. A lot more than the handful who went to see Bob Geldof and a lib dem mp. Jeremy Corbyn would do a better job imo and rally more. I think you should be disappointed, not pleased. Over half a million protested on the countryside march, over 2 million attend Notting hill, but a positive estimate of 50,000 turned up for this march. There are 3 million Eu citizens living in the uk who could have gone to it themselves. Poor turnout in my view and according to reports mainly white middles. Poor show chaps. I expected more.


So because she shes u turned when shes been backed into a corner (& because shes a totally inept) it somehow means the repeal bill cant be a tory power grab? Elles, it is a power grab, please try looking objectively at what the repeal means for our democracy. Former Tory Attorney General Dominic Grieve called it - 'An astonishing monstrosity of a Bill'

If she truly represented the best interests of the people why doesnt she u turn on the deeply unpopular policies? like the privatisation of our NHS for example? like the massive cuts to public services & the public sector pay cap? fracking?, her support of the fossil fuel industry & the wrecking of the renewables sector? ,her arms dealing to despotic regimes? - the badger cull? I could go on - and on - and on. Why does she carry on with polices that put millions of lives in danger?. Look at who the party donors are Elles.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Well as an UK ex-pat in the EU nobody is pushing for changes in our status. Our rights are protected from government whims by the EU. We aren't being told we are unwelcome or a burden on society. We are not being used as pawns.


I'm pleased you believe that. But deep down you know it's not true. Hence your continual aggression towards Brexit.

BUT we've been through this before, so you continue to try and convince yourself, and a few people on a pet forum, that UK voted wrong and I'm sure everything will turn out just dandy for you.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> I'm pleased you believe that. But deep down you know it's not true. Hence your continual aggression towards Brexit.
> 
> BUT we've been through this before, so you continue to try and convince yourself, and a few people on a pet forum, that UK voted wrong and I'm sure everything will turn out just dandy for you.


Change it from hillarious to really sad. Maybe you should actually look at what is going on and simple things like residence rights in the EU. Facts are there. Then again you seem to dislike facts.

I dislike brexit as most of my family is in the UK. My country is doing a great job of harming itself for no gain.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sorry this news article made me laugh because dear old MP Ken Clarke The Father of the House of Commons and Leave supporter said this on the Sofie Ridge show on Sunday about yesterday's protest:

*'Bad day for EU supporters' Ken Clarke urges Remainers to GIVE UP hope of staying in the EU.*

Ken Clarke branded the possibility of staying inside the EU "completely hopeless" and urged the thousands who attended yesterday's anti-Brexit march to give up.

Pro-EU social media users bemoaned a "terrible day for Remainers" after Tony Blair proposed restrictions on migrants and Mr Clarke's resignation to an "inevitable" EU withdrawal.

Mr Clarke has been one of the most vocal supporters of the European Union in the Conservative Party for years.

However, speaking to Sky News this morning, he admitted that his fight for UK's membership in the European bloc was over. 

------------

Yes that's right Ken Clarke has given up his fight of remaining in the EU.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> So because she shes u turned when shes been backed into a corner (& because shes a totally inept) it somehow means the repeal bill cant be a tory power grab? Elles, it is a power grab, please try looking objectively at what the repeal means for our democracy. Former Tory Attorney General Dominic Grieve called it - 'An astonishing monstrosity of a Bill'
> 
> If she truly represented the best interests of the people why doesnt she u turn on the deeply unpopular policies? like the privatisation of our NHS for example? like the massive cuts to public services & the public sector pay cap? fracking?, her support of the fossil fuel industry & the wrecking of the renewables sector? ,her arms dealing to despotic regimes? - the badger cull? I could go on - and on - and on. Why does she carry on with polices that put millions of lives in danger?. Look at who the party donors are Elles.


No, I'm saying that she u-turns and changes her mind, but instead of people saying well done, now change your mind on this too please, they say stupid weak woman changes her mind all the time. Thus encouraging her to stick to her guns, or be accused of being weak. Then they complain, because she doesn't u-turn.

I agreed with the points on the bill, if you read my earlier posts. I said I didn't have any problem with Jeremy Corbyn and others objecting to it as it stands. Or with their asking for a transition period after Brexit. Why else would I have said before the GE that I'd prefer the conservatives didn't get the huge majority and power they wanted, but rather that other parties had a say?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Personally I was trying to avoid mentioning the protest yesterday which I didn't know happened until I saw the news this morning. It was a poor turn out considering the remainers keep saying there cause is getting bigger, didn't seem like it with only a turn out of around 50,000. Still waiting to see *all* those that voted remain in the referendum to turn out to one of these protests as it hasn't happened yet.
> 
> This is why I try avoid mentioning the protests as they are just a small amount of people that show up and they do get me riled up because of all the disruption they cause tourists visiting our country and the people that live near where they take place.
> 
> Oh well I'll be quiet now :Muted


Not everyone can go to these events. I certainly couldn't for example on this occasion. Protests and marches don't suit everyone.

50,000 is certainly a good turn out in London alone. It also proves people aren't conditioned in to accepting Brexit as SWC appears to believe.

It also shows the anti Brexit feeling is strong in the UK to the rest of the world.

I can imagine resentment to Brexit will grow once realisation hits people hard.

There's a common saying, "You can't miss something you've never had". Well, unknown to many at present they've had something special they'll miss considerably.

On returning from Paris I wonder how the Border control will cope with the increased demand. Citizens from the EU will no longer be able to enter with an ID card. They'll need passports and valid visas too. And customs as well don't forget. Returning UK visitors will also be subjected to customs checks on their return too.

The UK Border force will likely have to move out of France into Dover and Folkestone.

It took two hours of queuing to get through the Passport checks and UK border force. I dread to think how long it's going to take from March 2019.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry this news article made me laugh because dear old MP Ken Clarke The Father of the House of Commons and Leave supporter said this on the Sofie Ridge show on Sunday about yesterday's protest:
> 
> *'Bad day for EU supporters' Ken Clarke urges Remainers to GIVE UP hope of staying in the EU.*
> 
> Ken Clarke branded the possibility of staying inside the EU "completely hopeless" and urged the thousands who attended yesterday's anti-Brexit march to give up.
> 
> Pro-EU social media users bemoaned a "terrible day for Remainers" after Tony Blair proposed restrictions on migrants and Mr Clarke's resignation to an "inevitable" EU withdrawal.
> 
> Mr Clarke has been one of the most vocal supporters of the European Union in the Conservative Party for years.
> 
> However, speaking to Sky News this morning, he admitted that his fight for UK's membership in the European bloc was over.
> 
> ------------
> 
> Yes that's right Ken Clarke has given up his fight of remaining in the EU.


That's up to him. Like Tony Blair he's an obsolete politician.

You think we're going to give up because an obsolete Tory who's living standards won't be affected by Brexit tells people to?

Why do you think it's a bad day for remainers? I couldn't care less about what Blair and Clarke think and say, they are entitled to express their opinion.

You must be joking if you think people are going to listen to Clarke, If anything this will make people more determined.

Sorry to disappoint you.


----------



## Elles

Don't you mean Ken Clarke Remain supporter? @stockwellcat. I thought he wanted to stay in the Eu?

They'll probably introduce technology to speed up border control in and out of the Eu. Like self service in supermarkets, only hopefully more efficient.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> No, I'm saying that she u-turns and changes her mind, but instead of people saying well done, now change your mind on this too please, they say stupid weak woman changes her mind all the time. Thus encouraging her to stick to her guns, or be accused of being weak. Then they complain, because she doesn't u-turn.
> 
> I agreed with the points on the bill, if you read my earlier posts. I said I didn't have any problem with Jeremy Corbyn and others objecting to it as it stands. Or with their asking for a transition period after Brexit. Why else would I have said before the GE that I'd prefer the conservatives didn't get the huge majority and power they wanted, but rather that other parties had a say?


You cant lay the blame at anyone elses feet for the damage this government is doing to the country, to the environment, to other countries. The tories polices are ideologically driven in the interests of those who bankroll the party. The tories don't care about facts, they don't care about ordinary people.

I missed what you said about the bill. If it passes it wont matter that the tories are only a minority government - they will have unprecedented powers to what they like without any scrutiny. God help us.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Don't you mean Ken Clarke Remain supporter? @stockwellcat. I thought he wanted to stay in the Eu?
> 
> They'll probably introduce technology to speed up border control in and out of the Eu. Like self service in supermarkets, only hopefully more efficient.


Yes that Ken Clarke. :Hilarious From his tone in Parliament the other day it sounded like he had given up fighting to remain in the EU.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> They'll probably introduce technology to speed up border control in and out of the Eu. Like self service in supermarkets, only hopefully more efficient.


Ah like the technology which magically will appear for the irish border. Government and IT are not things which you should have confidence in and that's nothing to do with Brexit  So where will all this border infrastructure come from I wonder?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sorry I deleted the post.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Don't you mean Ken Clarke Remain supporter? @stockwellcat. I thought he wanted to stay in the Eu?
> 
> They'll probably introduce technology to speed up border control in and out of the Eu. Like self service in supermarkets, only hopefully more efficient.


Don't forget Ken Clarke is a Tory politician. He's probably changed his stance to avoid upsetting his party or has grown too old to care either way. Brexit won't affect people like him anyway probably.

As for border controls there's been very little mention of this. How could technology cope with the demand and extra work needed not forgetting having to declare purchases on leaving the customs union.

Doubling the staff needed will not be nearly enough....


----------



## noushka05

__ https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1913633722294697




*Robert Peston*
· September 8 at 8:16am · Facebook Mentions ·
Early next week we will learn whether Theresa May can govern - when she faces two life-or-death votes, both of which are seen by her opponents as outrageous attempts to rig our democracy.

The first vote is on the second reading of the European Union (Withdrawal) bill, which would give ministers unprecedented power to make laws without consulting parliament.

The second vote, disclosed by HuffPost, would guarantee this minority government a majority on important legislative and scrutiny committees.

The two initiatives are connected - in that the most discussed compromise to soften the undemocratic impact of the EU (Withdrawal) Bill would be to create a new committee or use an existing one to oversee which EU-related laws are translated into pure British law without the involvement of parliament.

But obviously such a new committee would be a fig leaf if it contained a majority of May yes-people.

So although it looked yesterday as though most Tory critics of May's approach to Brexit would not side with Labour in Monday night's EU bill vote, those critics will have to think again.

In giving May a majority on the second reading, Brexit-wary Conservative MPs such as Grieve, Morgan and Soubry could find themselves undermining their own plan to effectively protect MPs' rights through later amendments to the bill - because Tuesday's attempt to rig the composition of parliamentary committees would demolish any such protection (forgive the Lewis Carroll logic here - such is parliament).

Having lost her majority in the general election she chose to call, for a while May talked the talk of reflecting the will of the people by trying to work consensually with MPs of other parties.

It is now a case of consensus conshmensus. With the aid of her most important minister, the wily chief whip, Williamson, she will attempt to rule by diktat via the gaming of parliamentary rules.

She has returned back from holiday with the spirit of the Venezuelan approach to democracy seemingly coursing through her veins.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dr Pepper said:


> Just as UK ex-pats (and every other ex-pat from wherever) in the USA, Australia, New Zealand etc etc etc are living right now. And obviously currently not forgetting the UK ex-pats in the EU of course. *No guarantees at all as to what the future holds and that's the chance you take*.


Like the risk we are taking living in the UK, under this governments cock up talks over Brexit. I think I'd feel safer if Irma was heading our way.

_edited for spelling _


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Ah like the technology which magically will appear for the irish border. Government and IT are not things which you should have confidence in and that's nothing to do with Brexit  So where will all this border infrastructure come from I wonder?


Yes, that's the one. I have every confidence in government bodies and technology.

Bwaaahaaa.

You never know, it might work. They'll have a few years to set it up, if there's a transition period like they say. They already make checks on International travellers. They'll just have to expand it to cope with the few Eu citizens daft enough to still want to visit. I'm sure they'll manage.

Anyway, even if we stay in the Eu and the powers that be exercise these Eu rights to restrict migrants that our government weren't using before, they'd have to look at border control wouldn't they? I suppose if they stay in the Eu, they can use migrants to man it for them.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> You cant lay the blame at anyone elses feet for the damage this government is doing to the country, to the environment, to other countries. The tories polices are ideologically driven in the interests of those who bankroll the party. The tories don't care about facts, they don't care about ordinary people.
> 
> I missed what you said about the bill. If it passes it wont matter that the tories are only a minority government - they will have unprecedented powers to what they like without any scrutiny. God help us.


You're very angry with the UK for their supposed lack of action with regards to the environment, but if you look at our EPI score, we're doing pretty well. Yes, more can always be done, but give credit where it's due:

2012: score 68.82
2014: score 77.35 
2016: score 87.38


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry if I was on holiday I would not be on forums freaking out about Brexit. I'd be out enjoying myself.
> 
> 50,000 isn't a good turn out at all for a protest in London, it's just a small protest. Plus I remember remainers saying their case is growing, sorry but it doesn't look like it. The turnouts to the protests has been relatively small.


I was making an observation on my RETURN from France. Yes we enjoy our holiday thank you very much. I felt more at home there than in the UK. I am European after all.

When Brexit hits really hard opposition to it will surely grow.

If you think 50,000 is a small number, where was the pro Brexit counter demo? Are Brexiteers becoming complacent despite sweet FA being "achieved" 15 months since the referendum and 6 months into triggering Article 50?


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> I was making an observation on my RETURN from France. Yes we enjoy our holiday thank you very much. I felt more at home there than in the UK. I am European after all.
> 
> When Brexit hits really hard opposition to it will surely grow.
> 
> If you think 50,000 is a small number, where was the pro Brexit counter demo? Are Brexiteers becoming complacent despite sweet FA being "achieved" 15 months since the referendum and 6 months into triggering Article 50?


Why would Brexiteers need to protest?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I was making an observation on my RETURN from France. Yes we enjoy our holiday thank you very much. I felt more at home there than in the UK. I am European after all.
> 
> When Brexit hits really hard opposition to it will surely grow.
> 
> If you think 50,000 is a small number, where was the pro Brexit counter demo? Are Brexiteers becoming complacent despite sweet FA being "achieved" 15 months since the referendum and 6 months into triggering Article 50?


You know for a fact that Leavers where asked not to protest a while ago so it doesn't attract far right organisations to hijack the counter protests. As others have said why do we need to protest?

Glad you had a nice holiday.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Didn't you know we are staying in Europe but leaving the EU. Oh I forget you don't understand that concept :Hilarious


Right, tell me how you understand that concept apart from it being a meaningless soundbite from Maybot.

As for Vote Leave not holding counter demonstrations in fear of attracting far right groups says it all doesn't it.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Right, tell me how you understand that concept apart from it being a meaningless soundbite from Maybot.


Read back through the thread I cannot be ar553d to repeat something that has already been discussed somewhere else in this 570 page thread with 11391 posts.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Right, tell me how you understand that concept apart from it being a meaningless soundbite from Maybot.
> 
> As for Vote Leave not holding counter demonstrations in fear of attracting far right groups says it all doesn't it.....


Please enlighten me as to what technology will be used to make us leave Europe? That'll have far more reaching consequences that anything Brexit threatens/achieves.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> Right, tell me how you understand that concept apart from it being a meaningless soundbite from Maybot.
> 
> As for Vote Leave not holding counter demonstrations in fear of attracting far right groups says it all doesn't it.....


Far right groups can turn up anywhere, as can Antifa. Both as bad and unwanted as each other


----------



## Elles

The public sector pay cap is being dismantled, starting with the police and prison officers. They are looking at reducing student loans. BBC news today.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Read back through the thread I cannot be ar553d to repeat something that has already been discussed somewhere else in this 570 page thread with 11391 posts.


In other words you can't unless you're referring to your post which said the UK will remain in the EEA!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Read back through the thread I cannot be ar553d to repeat something that has already been discussed somewhere else in this 570 page thread with 11391 posts.


Someone deleted their posts didn't they. Edit: just realised, not all of them.

Physically yes, UK will be part of europe. Emotionally and culturally some in the UK (especially media) is doing everything it can to damage the relationship between the UK and mainland europe.

Interesting how people say they knew what they were voting for and hard brexit.. remember this?


Goblin said:


> As for stockwellcat saying we'd be trading through the EEA, that is wrong. That was an option we reject with a hard brexit. It's commonly called the Norway model.





stockwellcat. said:


> EEA is separate from the EU. Do I have to prove this to you like I did with the UK still being in the WTO?


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am not being enticed into going over old ground. Sorry.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not being enticed into going over old ground. Sorry.


I don't blame you, we just going round in circles.:Bored


----------



## Elles

You spin me right round baby right round, like a broken record baby.

My latest post was up to date, topical and newsworthy.

And nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## Goblin

Happy Paws said:


> I don't blame you, we just going round in circles.:Bored


Circles like "remainers" are still pointing out the problems and the reality. Leavers have gone from "it will be brilliant" to "well it will not be that bad".


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Yes, that's the one. I have every confidence in government bodies and technology.
> 
> Bwaaahaaa.
> 
> You never know, it might work. They'll have a few years to set it up,


I've known people who've worked on government IT projects - sensible, intelligent people who left after they realised they were on the development equivalent of the Titanic, that is. _

Their _choice of language to describe the quality of the work being done was rather more - er - family forum unfriendly, shall we say...


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> You're very angry with the UK for their supposed lack of action with regards to the environment, but if you look at our EPI score, we're doing pretty well. Yes, more can always be done, but give credit where it's due:
> 
> 2012: score 68.82
> 2014: score 77.35
> 2016: score 87.38


I'm _raging_ with anger about the _tories_ scorched earth policies MM, we are going backwards on environmental issues - on climate action. Our climate is breaking down, we are staring catastrophic runaway climate breakdown in the face - yet the tories have opened up the country to fracking, they are still slyly subsidising the filthy fossil fuel industry with public money and doing their best to kill off the cheapest, cleanest forms of energy we have. They have just sold off our fantastic Green Investment Bank to an asset stripper with an atrocious record on the environment. Many tory mps have connections to the fossil fuel industry - the party is bankrolled by it.

Look at how most of the tories vote on environmental issues MM. This is Theresa Mays record & its dire. https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10426/theresa_may/maidenhead/votes#environment


Generally voted against measures to *prevent climate change*
Generally voted for lower taxes on *fuel for motor vehicles*
Consistently voted for selling England's state owned *forests*
Generally voted for higher *taxes on plane tickets*
Has never voted on financial incentives for *low carbon* emission *electricity generation* methods
Generally voted for *culling badgers*
Generally voted against greater regulation of *hydraulic fracturing (fracking)* to extract shale gas

Generally voted for new *high speed rail* infrastructure
When we leave the EU we stand to lose vital laws which protect our environment. Why do you think the freemarketeer extremists want out?

Our EPI score is inspite of the tories not because of it. The Global Green Economy Index uses data from the EPI. They issue a profile of each country. http://dualcitizeninc.com/GGEI-2016.pdf Heres ours....

_As was the case in 2014, the UK's overall performance on the GGEI continues to suffer from inconsistent political rhetoric and domestic policies supporting green economic growth. Overall, the UK's performance slid slightly in 2016, now ranking twenty-fifth below most of its competitors on the continent. Alarmingly, the UK ranks near the bottom of all countries for Leadership & Climate Change due to poor scores given to the head of state around commitment to the green economy. These shortcomings appear not to have damaged the UK's performance on the Markets & Investment dimension yet, where the UK ranks near the top of the eighty nations covered in this latest GGEI.

(_& this could be our next PM - I honestly didnt think the tories could do worse_)
_
*Britain could slash environmental and safety standards 'a very long way' after Brexit, Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg says *
The MP said standards that were 'good enough for India' could be good enough for the U_K
_

_
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html_


----------



## noushka05

Has anyone been following this story on the latest tory scandal? 'The European Research Group'. Theres some great investigative work being done by green activists at the moment on the story. May is their puppet, she has no control of them. The ERG is a party _within _the tory party.

*Revealed: The Tory MPs using taxpayers' cash to fund a secretive hard-Brexit group*

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/br...led-tory-mps-using-taxpayers-cash-to-fund-sec


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> You're very angry with the UK for their supposed lack of action with regards to the environment, but if you look at our EPI score, we're doing pretty well. Yes, more can always be done, but give credit where it's due:
> 
> 2012: score 68.82
> 2014: score 77.35
> 2016: score 87.38


Here's a very timely article tweeted by Caroline Lucas MM. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...as-hurricane-irma-shows-it-cant-a7936996.html

*Hurricane Irma shows that the Government can't afford to neglect climate change any longer*
Not so long ago, the UK was at the forefront of international efforts to combat climate change, promoting the use of green energy and encouraging other nations to help reduce global carbon emissions. Yet for the past five years, matters have regressed


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Here's a very timely article tweeted by Caroline Lucas MM. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...as-hurricane-irma-shows-it-cant-a7936996.html
> 
> *Hurricane Irma shows that the Government can't afford to neglect climate change any longer*
> Not so long ago, the UK was at the forefront of international efforts to combat climate change, promoting the use of green energy and encouraging other nations to help reduce global carbon emissions. Yet for the past five years, matters have regressed


Of course she would never cherry pick to show the government up in a bad light. As we well know, the Government have recently pledged £1bn towards putting solar panels on social housing. Regarding wind power, our output has increased, and we are now the world's sixth largest producer of wind power. No small feat for such a small island.

Renewable UK seem to be quite happy with the increase in off shore wind:

"We're set to see a rapid expansion in the UK's offshore wind capacity, doubling from 5 gigawatts now to 10GW by 2020, maintaining our global lead."

Installed capacity (MW) of renewable energy sources in the United Kingdom between 2000 and 2015










As for her assertion that climate change caused the earthquake in Mexico:

"Climate change will not result in increased earthquake activity," agreed Gail Atkinson, professor of earth sciences at Western University


----------



## samuelsmiles

KittenKong said:


> I was making an observation on my RETURN from France. Yes we enjoy our holiday thank you very much. *I felt more at home there than in the UK. I am European after all.*
> 
> When Brexit hits really hard opposition to it will surely grow.
> 
> If you think 50,000 is a small number, where was the pro Brexit counter demo? Are Brexiteers becoming complacent despite sweet FA being "achieved" 15 months since the referendum and 6 months into triggering Article 50?


I don't feel 'European.' I don't really feel British or, dare I say it, English either. When I go abroad I want to feel that those people are different, have diffrerent cultures, individuality - different ways of doing things. I want them to speak a different language. I don't get this "I feel more European" thing at all.


----------



## samuelsmiles

MiffyMoo said:


> Of course she would never cherry pick to show the government up in a bad light.* As we well know, the Government have recently pledged £1bn towards putting solar panels on social housing. Regarding wind power, our output has increased, and we are now the world's sixth largest producer of wind power. No small feat for such a small island.*
> 
> Renewable UK seem to be quite happy with the increase in off shore wind:
> 
> "We're set to see a rapid expansion in the UK's offshore wind capacity, doubling from 5 gigawatts now to 10GW by 2020, maintaining our global lead."
> 
> Installed capacity (MW) of renewable energy sources in the United Kingdom between 2000 and 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for her assertion that climate change caused the earthquake in Mexico:
> 
> "Climate change will not result in increased earthquake activity," agreed Gail Atkinson, professor of earth sciences at Western University


And, of course, the Guardian did not mention this at all because it was good news.


----------



## MiffyMoo

samuelsmiles said:


> And, of course, the Guardian did not mention this at all because it was good news.


Or the Independent


----------



## Happy Paws2

Goblin said:


> Circles like "remainers" are still pointing out the problems and the reality. Leavers have gone from "it will be brilliant" to "well it will not be that bad".


now who's going round in circles


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Of course she would never cherry pick to show the government up in a bad light. As we well know, the Government have recently pledged £1bn towards putting solar panels on social housing. Regarding wind power, our output has increased, and we are now the world's sixth largest producer of wind power. No small feat for such a small island.
> 
> Renewable UK seem to be quite happy with the increase in off shore wind:
> 
> "We're set to see a rapid expansion in the UK's offshore wind capacity, doubling from 5 gigawatts now to 10GW by 2020, maintaining our global lead."
> 
> Installed capacity (MW) of renewable energy sources in the United Kingdom between 2000 and 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for her assertion that climate change caused the earthquake in Mexico:
> 
> "Climate change will not result in increased earthquake activity," agreed Gail Atkinson, professor of earth sciences at Western University


Wow seriously, cherry picking? Its called 'holding the government to account'. You don't think we need bold, urgent action on climate change then? Maybe you should research what experts are screaming from the rooftops on the subject? If only all our politicians were as courageous & as principled as Caroline Lucas is. If we have any hope at all of averting catastrophe we need to get behind progressive MPs and pressure this government into acting, not be apologists for them. Imagine they were labour? - how angry would you feel that they are fiddling(literally lol ) while the planet burns?

The tories have effectively banned onshore wind - the cheapest form of energy. Check out their appalling solar tax. And I suggest you look into the dangers of fracking to our health & to our climate.

Did you check out the voting histories of the tory cabinet on environmental issues? You think they care about our environment? Please look objectively.



samuelsmiles said:


> And, of course, the Guardian did not mention this at all because it was good news.





MiffyMoo said:


> Or the Independent


Oh dear:Wideyed

Its a great shame there arent more papers like this that cover important issues like climate change so excellently. Sadly all too many prefer papers like the Mail, or propaganda sites like Guido Fawkes, which feed them what they want to hear.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The tories have effectively banned onshore wind - the cheapest form of energy.


 Are sure you have your facts right about this statement? The reason why I say this is because my dad has been complaining about the state of the country side surrounding where his house is because they keep putting up wind farms and ruining the surrounding countryside. I am open for correction if I am wrong but they seem to still be putting up these windfarm windmills to create electricity in parts of Lancashire.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Wow seriously, cherry picking? Its called 'holding the government to account'. You don't think we need bold, urgent action on climate change then? Maybe you should research what experts are screaming from the rooftops on the subject? If only all our politicians were as courageous & as principled as Caroline Lucas is. If we have any hope at all of averting catastrophe we need to get behind progressive MPs and pressure this government into acting, not be apologists for them. Imagine they were labour? - how angry would you feel that they are fiddling(literally lol ) while the planet burns?
> 
> The tories have effectively banned onshore wind - the cheapest form of energy. Check out their appalling solar tax. And I suggest you look into the dangers of fracking to our health & to our climate.
> 
> Did you check out the voting histories of the tory cabinet on environmental issues? You think they care about our environment? Please look objectively.
> 
> Oh dear:Wideyed
> 
> *Its a great shame there arent more papers like this that cover 5 issues like climate change so excellently.* Sadly all too many prefer papers like the Mail, or propaganda sites like Guido Fawkes, which feed them what they want to hear.


No, what is a great shame is the fact that neither offers a balanced news service. The Guardian did not publish the story about solar panels being fitted to social housing because it did not suit their narrative.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Are sure you have your facts right about this statement? The reason why I say this is because my dad has been complaining about the state of the country side surrounding where his house is because they keep putting up wind farms and ruining the surrounding countryside. I am open for correction if I am wrong but they seem to still be putting up these windfarm windmills to create electricity in parts of Lancashire.


This -
http://electricityinfo.org/comment/onshore-wind-schemes-more-than-30-percent-cheaper-than-hinkley-c/

_Meanwhile the British Government will not let onshore wind developers (or solar farm developers) compete for any future contracts to supply electricity. The British Government much prefers to throw subsidies at conventional power stations through the capacity market in a failing effort to get more gas fired power stations built and also offer much higher contract prices to nuclear power developers who can't deliver their projects

D_oes your Dad know Lancashire is about to get fracked SWC? If he thinks wind turbines are ruining the countryside I wonder what he'll think about fracking. Please show him this.


----------



## Elles

People in England (like your dad for example) don't want wind farms, so the conservatives were going to give decisions on planning to local councils and communities and stop subsidising them. There will still be wind farms in Scotland where it's windier, they're more accepted and they're less obtrusive, and off shore. 

They want Chinese money for nuclear though, which is more expensive. Too many wind farms and the nuclear plants and Chinese money might not be so welcome. Depends on whether you think the government are worse than the mafia, or just the elected government. If they carry on supporting fracking, they'll need locking up either way imo.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> Are sure you have your facts right about this statement? The reason why I say this is because my dad has been complaining about the state of the country side surrounding where his house is because they keep putting up wind farms and ruining the surrounding countryside. I am open for correction if I am wrong but they seem to still be putting up these windfarm windmills to create electricity in parts of Lancashire.


Yup, they've pretty much destroyed the Pennines with these wind farms. What was once a beautifully bleak wilderness is now a unsightly noisy mess. It really shouldn't be allowed and I guess it's why the government have encouraged (and seemingly succeeded) off shore farms.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> Yup, they've pretty much destroyed the Pennines with these wind farms. What was once a beautifully bleak wilderness is now a unsightly noisy mess. It really shouldn't be allowed and I guess it's why the government have encouraged (and seemingly succeeded) off shore farms.


They are noisy as well.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> This -
> http://electricityinfo.org/comment/onshore-wind-schemes-more-than-30-percent-cheaper-than-hinkley-c/
> 
> _Meanwhile the British Government will not let onshore wind developers (or solar farm developers) compete for any future contracts to supply electricity. The British Government much prefers to throw subsidies at conventional power stations through the capacity market in a failing effort to get more gas fired power stations built and also offer much higher contract prices to nuclear power developers who can't deliver their projects
> 
> D_oes your Dad know Lancashire is about to get fracked SWC? If he thinks wind turbines are ruining the countryside I wonder what he'll think about fracking. Please show him this.


Yep, I'm absolutely against fracking with the knowledge I have about it.


----------



## Elles

Coincidentally, BBC news just now

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41220948


----------



## stockwellcat.

@noushka05 I understand how much you care for the environment and climate but is this acceptable? It is the countryside around my dad's and locals have been complaining in the village he lives in and the surrounding villages because of the noise they make and because they are an eyesore.
























Look at the mess windfarms make as well let alone noise polution and the fact that most of the windmills have been built on farmers land. They are speeding up the building of windfarms in parts of Lancashire and the locals hate them.

By the way I am against fracking and know about the protests near Blackpool about the proposed fracking there.

Sorry for taking the the thread off topic but I wanted to prove a point. Sorry.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> No, what is a great shame is the fact that neither offers a balanced news service. The Guardian did not publish the story about solar panels being fitted to social housing because it did not suit their narrative.


The guardian has done more to raise awareness of climate change then any popular media outlet I know of. You don't want balance, you only want to hear positives about the government. There is no balance anyway - any good the tories do for the environment (& for society) is far, far outweighed by the bad. Their policies are ideologically driven, they believe in deregulation to maximise profit. Everything has price - nothing is sacred.

Tory Andrew Lilico reveals the pychopathic views of the hard right. https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...the-ethics-of-adapting-to-climate-change.html

*Andrew Lilico: On the ethics of adapting to climate change*









By Andrew Lilico

Along with many other economists, my view on global warming-associated climate change is that the world is most unlikely to be able to agree and coordinate globally, and then sustain for the centuries required, the growth-denying policies that would be needed if we were to limit human-induced global warming to any material effect beyond the limits that natural economic development will generate automatically via market forces.

Furthermore - again along with many other economists - I consider it very doubtful that, even if we could coordinate on policies that would materially limit climate change, the costs of doing so would be less than the benefits. Adaptation is almost certainly what, in practice, the world will do, almost certainly all it can do, and very probably what it would be economically best to do.

However, when making this case one commonly faces the objection that, regardless of whether adapting to climate change would be economically advantageous, it would be unethical not to make all the efforts we can to prevent or limit climate change. Certainly some adaptation will be required (the argument goes) and perhaps the pessimistic account of humanity's capacity for global coordination will prove right, but we must at least try. Not even to try would (it is said) be wrong, regardless of the economics.

That is the case I want to counter here. To lay my cards on the table from the start, I believe it to be completely wrong, from the bottom up.

To focus the discussion on the key ethical points, I shall take as given for our purposes here that human-induced climate change will be significant, absent material mitigation, and that adapting to climate change would be economically superior to attempting to prevent or mitigate it.

(I am of course aware that that each of those views is challenged in some quarters, but I don't want to replay either of those debates here. Instead, let's focus on the ethical argument that says if there will be significant climate change the economics don't matter.)

I identify four components to the ethical case for mitigating as much as we can, even if it is economically disadvantageous to do so, namely the claims that:


Humanity should seek to avoid having a transformative impact on the environment
It would be wrong to allow the deaths - perhaps even extinctions - of huge numbers of animals and plants
It is wrong to leave environmental damage for our children to clean up
The places in the world where adaptation would be most necessary are where people are least able to adapt
Let us take these in turn. First the claim that humans should seek to avoid having a transformative impact on the environment. That boat sailed thousands of years ago. Look across the English countryside with its green fields. It's virtually all a human-induced environment (and none the worse for that). Absent man's influence it would almost all be trees. Instead we have grass or crops or roads or hedges or stone walls or other human-created environments.

The same is true across that vast bulk of the earth where humans live. The ground is made by us. Similarly, much of the fauna is ours. Think of an enormously abundant large mammal, such as the American bison at its peak of some 30-100 million beasts. Then compare that to the 1.3 billion cattle or 24 billion chickens humans keep for their convenience.

Of the total mass of mammals, some 98 per cent or so are humans or human-used.

Obviously there are huge numbers of bacteria and insects and plankton and other creatures we do not so directly control. But the point remains that the earth - at least on the land - is a human-created environment moulded for our convenience - as is only right and proper. After all, the model attitude humans have adopted to the environment since ancient times was that of the steward of the Garden of Eden. Note that: a garden - a designed environment, not a wilderness.

Next, the question of whether it would be wrong to allow the deaths of huge numbers of plants and animals merely for our convenience. In a world of meat and leather and city-building and anti-biotic medicines the idea there is something unethical about allowing the deaths of large numbers of plants and animals simply for human convenience is a bit strained. But let's try to spice it up a bit by supposing climate change might lead to extinctions in the wild of many species.

(Obviously adaptation need not mean actual extinctions of any species we can identify and preserve samples or DNA of. That also means objections like "some animal that might go extinct might carry the cure to cancer" never really get off the ground even were they not so trivially countered by "some animal that might go extinct might otherwise have carried and communicated tomorrow's deadly plague".)

Mightn't extinctions in the wild be an important consideration?

Obviously I'm all in favour of avoiding hunting or driving creatures to extinction as a general principle. But I see that in aesthetic terms, as something related to the creatures we humans like (e.g. I have no great sorrow about smallpox becoming extinct in the wild but don't see why a rhino has any superior fundamental ethical claim to exist over a pox).

More generally, it is a classic policy error to believe one has stronger duties to preserve the things one can see today than to facilitate the things an alternative policy might create. That is well understood when it comes to companies or jobs or competition. We do not believe we should favour existing companies over new companies that might arise tomorrow.

Well, much the same applies to the environment. If the earth heats up by 4 degrees then many species that flourish at today's temperatures and weather patterns will cease to be best-suited and will die out to be replaced by current species that are better suited or new species that will evolve.

There is no reason at all for us to believe it ethical to favour the interests of today's creatures over the interests of tomorrow's other than some creatures being more convenient or interesting or useful for humans

Next the issue of leaving things to our children. First, our children will be unimaginably wealthier than we are, partly as a result of our innovations and infrastructure investments and capital accumulation. Our children will not be compensating us for our gifts to them other than by making the most of those gifts. Why should we be concerned if, alongside these huge gifts, they have a few challenges?

Perhaps they will never see the tropics as we can, but we shall never see the primordial forests of England as prehistoric man did. Do you feel your forebears let you down?

Last the claim that those that will need to adapt most are those least able to adapt. The idea here is that adaptation will be most required in poorer parts of the world. First we should note that, by the time folk in those "poorer" regions would be adapting, they are actually expected to be richer, per head, than those in today's "rich" regions. But, at least as importantly, the "adaptation" in question will be over an extended period.

Suppose that, in 150 years' time, climate change means the tropics have such frequent storms that almost no-one could live there. Why is that a problem? Almost no-one lives in Antarctica or the Sahara today. Is that a problem? If the tropics became uninhabitable overnight, that might require a significant and rapid movement of peoples. But if the great grandchildren of folk that today live in the tropics live instead in Canada or Russia why is that, per se, an ethical issue?

It's not "worse" living in Canada than in Haiti. It's merely "different". (And remember, whilst there might be a debate to be had about the costs of relocating the population of the tropics elsewhere, we are assuming throughout that adaptation is economically superior.)

The earth's environment is largely human-moulded on land already. Insofar as there are ethical considerations about changes to the environment (and there are indeed many such issues) they concern how changes to the environment reflect human tastes and needs and convenience.

If it is more convenient for humans that we allow significant climate change and adapt to it, there is nothing whatever unethical about our doing precisely tha


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 I understand how much you care for the environment and climate but is this acceptable? It is the countryside around my dad's and locals have been complaining in the village he lives in and the surrounding villages because of the noise the make and because they are an eyesore.
> View attachment 324660
> 
> View attachment 324661
> 
> View attachment 324662
> 
> Look at the mess windfarms make as well let alone noise polution and the fact that most of the windmills have been built on farmers land. They are speeding up the building of windfarms in parts of Lancashire and thr locals hate them.
> 
> By the way I am against fracking and know about the protests near Blackpool about the proposed fracking there.
> 
> Sorry for taking the the thread off topic but I wanted to prove a point. Sorry.


So long as they have been carefully sited, had environmental assessment impacts I'd welcome them anywhere. Because if we dont switch over to green renewables such as wind asap - the living planet we depend upon to survive is screwed.


----------



## Goblin

Pros and cons of windfarms, it's a complicated subject, not least as there is the question of return of investment.. does it cost more ecologically to build a wind turbine than you gain through it's lifespan for example. Something for a different thread ( I believe samuelsmiles already has one going).

Getting back to topic however it is interesting that people are saying "hold government to account" and "we can clean up this" now we are out of the EU. Additional runway at heathrow anyone.. Pollution levels around heathrow already break EU regulations yet the government is building a new runway. We get told "pollution will not be a problem" by people like Boris. If people need a demonstration of government outside the EU there is a good one. Words vs actions.


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> Pros and cons of windfarms, it's a complicated subject, not least as there is the question of return of investment.. does it cost more ecologically to build a wind turbine than you gain through it's lifespan for example. Something for a different thread ( I believe samuelsmiles already has one going).
> 
> Getting back to topic however it is interesting that people are saying "hold government to account" and "we can clean up this" now we are out of the EU. Additional runway at heathrow anyone.. Pollution levels around heathrow already break EU regulations yet the government is building a new runway. We get told "pollution will not be a problem" by people like Boris. If people need a demonstration of government outside the EU there is a good one. Words vs actions.


I think this may answer question Goblin - https://1010uk.org/talk-about-wind/carbon-intensity


----------



## Elles

These things are all happening inside the Eu. The people have to want change for there to be change. It's like the climate change adapter's article that Noushka pasted. The species that will eventually be unable to adapt will be ours. When you look at the universe though, does it matter? Trillions of planets doing just fine without life as we know it and even if it takes a meteor shower or a few thousand years to wipe out this form of life, it will happen. 

When people talk about 50 years, or 150 years as long term, it really isn't. We have to do this for our children and grandchildren, our generations and everything that lives today. So that they too can live and breathe. Not be so selfish, using up everything we have until there's nothing left. The guy obviously has no clue, if he really thinks we can all move and we just need cows and chickens, with no ecological balance. What a plonker. Just confirms what I thought about listening to wealthy expert economists, whichever side they were on. 

Rees-Mogg is a climate change adapter too. They're even more dangerous than climate change deniers imo.

(I just made up climate change adapter, I don't know what the commonly accepted term for them is. Probably begins with B)


----------



## noushka05

I like that term Elles!. Very fitting, well done.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> Are sure you have your facts right about this statement? The reason why I say this is because my dad has been complaining about the state of the country side surrounding where his house is because they keep putting up wind farms and ruining the surrounding countryside. I am open for correction if I am wrong but they seem to still be putting up these windfarm windmills to create electricity in parts of Lancashire.


Around here it's acres and acres of solar panels. I'd much rather have those because you can actually hide them from site most of the time, put them on the least productive land and it's opening up more land for wildlife.
Win win really


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Getting back to topic however it is interesting that people are saying "hold government to account" and "we can clean up this" now we are out of the EU. Additional runway at heathrow anyone.. Pollution levels around heathrow already break EU regulations yet the government is building a new runway. We get told "pollution will not be a problem" by people like Boris. If people need a demonstration of government outside the EU there is a good one. Words vs actions.


 Boris is against the third runway because it affects his constituency , same as Zac goldsmith


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Around here it's acres and acres of solar panels. I'd much rather have those because you can actually hide them from site most of the time, put them on the least productive land and it's opening up more land for wildlife.
> Win win really


You are lucky to have the none noisy method of collecting energy to convert into electricity.


----------



## kimthecat

Talking of Boris and on a lighter note...

Last years Christmas card . i think he drew it himself !


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> Boris is against the third runway because it affects his constituency , same as Zac goldsmith


You are right.. he is now. In 2013 he was pushing Heathrow as he detested the idea of Gatwick becoming a hub airport. It's hard to keep track of what he really believes.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Talking of Boris and on a lighter note...
> 
> Last years Christmas card . i think he drew it himself !
> 
> View attachment 324667
> 
> 
> View attachment 324668


He's a card isn't he?


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> You are right.. he is now. In 2013 he was pushing Heathrow as he detested the idea of Gatwick becoming a hub airport. It's hard to keep track of what he really believes.


That's odd, I thought he always wanted a new one in the Thames Estuary rather than either of the current airports

Then he preferred Gatwick and has always opposed Heathrow


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> You are right.. he is now. In 2013 he was pushing Heathrow as he detested the idea of Gatwick becoming a hub airport. It's hard to keep track of what he really believes.


He believes in what benefits him most , he really wanted a Boris Island airport 

@rona


> He's a card isn't he?


:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Whoops Theresa May needs to get Parliments approval to give DUP £1bn the Treasury has said:

http://news.sky.com/story/torys-1bn-deal-with-dup-will-need-parliament-approval-11030655


> *Tories' £1bn deal with DUP will 'need Parliament approval'*
> 14:18, UK, Monday 11 September
> 
> The £1bn investment Theresa May promised Northern Ireland in return for support from the DUP will need to be approved by Parliament, the Treasury has confirmed.
> 
> The acknowledgement that MPs will need to authorise the payment, which enabled the Prime Minister to cobble together a fragile parliamentary majority, has emerged as a result of a legal challenge to the Tory-DUP deal.
> 
> The so-called confidence-and-supply arrangement, signed in June, pledged £1bn more funding for hospitals, schools and infrastructure in return for support from the DUP's 10 MPs on key votes such as the *second reading of the EU Withdrawal Bill later today*.
> 
> But after a letter threatening legal action was sent to Government lawyers by anti-Brexit campaigner Gina Miller and the Independent Workers Union of Great Britain (IWGB), a Treasury solicitor confirmed the pledged investment "will have appropriate Parliamentary authorisation".
> 
> According to the Press Association, the letter went on to state that no timetable had yet been decided for making the payments.
> 
> When asked for Downing Street's reaction, the Prime Minister's official spokesman said he could not comment on party matters.


So DUP may not get the money after all.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> He believes in what benefits him most , he really wanted a Boris Island airport
> 
> :Hilarious


Well, they could certainly lash him to the top of a pylon and use his hair as a windsock...


----------



## Elles

Will there be a new term? DUPed.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Boris is against the third runway because it affects his constituency , same as Zac goldsmith


Like a runway would be any less damaging in the Thames estuary? Hes an idiot.

Boris is a dangerous climate sceptic. Love this video of Jenny Jones skewing the ignoramous.








rona said:


> He's a card isn't he?


He's a laugh a minute - http://whatdoesborisowe.co.uk/


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Then he preferred Gatwick and has always opposed Heathrow


Quotes from 2013 by Boris


> If you want a hub airport, you've either got to go with Heathrow or you've got to go with a new solution





> An extra runway at Gatwick would not make a bean of difference because the airlines will still want to go to Heathrow


and a classic considering their views on experts when they disagree with direction, this from 2014:


> Expansion of Gatwick is a sticking plaster that expert analysis has shown would stimulate little of the global connectivity we so desperately need.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Will there be a new term? DUPed.


There's no Government in Northern Ireland at present so why should the DUP get the money. They aren't in Government in Northern Ireland and the way things are going Westminster will be taking direct rule back. So what would have happened if TM did pay £1bn as Westminster would be in control of Northern Ireland?

What a mess the Government is in. Surely there lawyers should have said something to TM before she made this deal.


----------



## KittenKong

http://uk.businessinsider.com/twent...=US&IR=T/#t18-chris-and-monica-miller-25000-2


----------



## Elles

It's not loading for me atm @KittenKong but whoever they are they were fools wasting their money. Most people who voted leave made their minds up long before the referendum. That's why there was a referendum. Think I already said that though.  Others may not agree and may know people who were pro Eu, or unsure about it and were swung by money in the Brexit pot. A lot less money than in the Remain pot though, iirc.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> It's not loading for me atm @KittenKong but whoever they are they were fools wasting their money. *Most people who voted leave made their minds up long before the referendum. That's why there was a referendum. * Think* I already said that though.*  Others may not agree and may know people who were pro Eu, or unsure about it and were swung by money in the Brexit pot. A lot less money than in the Remain pot though, iirc.


You're going around in circles now @Elles :Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> It's not loading for me atm @KittenKong but whoever they are they were fools wasting their money. Most people who voted leave made their minds up long before the referendum.


That's not who the advertising was aimed at, though. I know as many people who didn't make up their mind one way or another until just before the vote as who had made up their minds before the campaigning started.

Pretty sure we had some people on here doing the 'I'm going to vote for...' equivalent of the Hokey Cokey, too


----------



## stockwellcat.

So the FT has a news article entitled "Watching Brexit Unfold In Real Time" with a link to a site where you can read all the negotiating documents and not rely on what the politicians and media are saying.


> Both the EU and, more recently, the UK are publishing key negotiation documents. You can read these for yourself and form your own view on the issues between the parties and the extent of any differences. (I have linked to all *the key Brexit negotiation documents here* on my personal blog.)


This is the link if you missed it above: http://jackofkent.com/brexit-negotiations-resource-page/

I am now going to go through it to read what is going on.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well that kind of sets out if Article 50 is revokeable as remainers believe it is:


> *Once triggered, can Article 50 be revoked?*
> 
> It was the decision of the United Kingdom to trigger Article 50. But once triggered, *it cannot be unilaterally reversed*. *Article 50 does not provide for the unilateral withdrawal of the notification*.


This is an answer to the question from Europa.eu here: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-2001_en.htm

It clearly states it cannot be reversed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

> *When does the United Kingdom cease to be a member of the European Union?*
> 
> *The UK will cease to be a member of the European Union at midnight on 29 March 2019*, unless the European Council decides unanimously to extend the two-year negotiating period. The United Kingdom will become a third country from the date of withdrawal.





> *What happens if no agreement is reached?*
> 
> The EU Treaties simply cease to apply to the UK two years after notification.


Information from here (EU's website):
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-2001_en.htm


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> It clearly states it cannot be reversed.


No it says it cannot be withdrawn unilaterally. An agreement could be reached with the UK saying truthfully "this is a stupid idea, can we forget about this?" The EU could say "yes". Now what effect that would have in terms of things like veto's and excemptions the UK has built up over the years would be another matter... Then again weren't we always told "they need us more than we need them".


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## noushka05

_..
When you treat as sacrosanct a result secured by lies you encourage liars. Neither side's conduct was admirable but it is the winners you hold accountable.

_


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Whoops Theresa May needs to get Parliments approval to give DUP £1bn the Treasury has said:
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/torys-1bn-deal-with-dup-will-need-parliament-approval-11030655
> 
> So DUP may not get the money after all.


More excellent work from Gina Miller


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> More excellent work from Gina Miller


I am not praising her but she has helped the Brexit process so far and I suppose corrected the Government again. I dont understand why TM did not consult government lawyers before signing the deal with the DUP? Instead she has created another headache for herself.


----------



## kimthecat

The withdrawal bill is being discussed on BBC parliament channel now .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> The withdrawal bill is being discussed on BBC parliament channel now .


I am watching it


----------



## noushka05

( courtesy of David Schneider)

_With the Brexit bill upon us, here's a handy Brexit guide to what is and what isn't democratic._


----------



## noushka05

*Scared about your human rights after Brexit? You should be *

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...citizens-human-rights-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## stockwellcat.

What TM would look like as Henry the 8th.

I want to make this clear, I am against the Henry the 8th Clause (and Theresa May dressing up as Henry the 8th) but I am for the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill as we need to move EU law into UK law so we can govern ourselves on the day we leave the EU and afterwards. Parliament needs to decide what laws should be kept and got rid of by way of debate and votes. This would be handing soveriegnty back to Parliament. I dont think it should be down to any Government to solely decide. I hope the Government are pushed to drop the Henry the 8th clause before the 3rd reading and put through the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill without this clause in it.


----------



## Elles

If Britain is so terrible about everything, where does the idea that we should stay in the Eu to influence and improve it come from?

I like the look of this

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/a-rural-land-policy-for-the-uk-after-brexit/

A potential policy of farm subsidies after Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> If Britain is so terrible about everything, where does the idea that we should stay in the Eu to influence and improve it come from?
> 
> I like the look of this
> 
> http://ukandeu.ac.uk/a-rural-land-policy-for-the-uk-after-brexit/
> 
> A potential policy of farm subsidies after Brexit.


That looks very good.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> If Britain is so terrible about everything, where does the idea that we should stay in the Eu to influence and improve it come from?
> 
> I like the look of this
> 
> http://ukandeu.ac.uk/a-rural-land-policy-for-the-uk-after-brexit/
> 
> A potential policy of farm subsidies after Brexit.


Nothing to do with the "proposed" government scheme replacement I see. No mention of lobby group potential objections either.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Meanwhile: BoE warns that rates will go up. Household debts are growing, growth slowdown, recession more and more looming on the horizon.
Pound is reaching parity with euro, but export not benefitting from it as expected.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see the EU Withdrawal Bill went through last night, I was so tired I went to bed at 10pm so missed the vote.

The bill was passed by 326 votes to 290 - with 7 Labour MPs voting with the Government and defying the 3 line whip. A number of MP's abstained from voting.

The Labour amendment was defeated by 318 votes to 296.

The bill now goes to committee stage.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Now the fun starts


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat. It was passed in the early hours. I wonder if Corbyn will sack any Labour MPs who defied him .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat. It was passed in the early hours. I wonder if Corbyn will sack any Labour MPs who defied him .


Would be interesting to see if he does sack the defiant MP's. Bet he doesn't as it will weaked him as leader if he does.

I dont think my local MP Kate Hoey is on the front bench but know she defied the 3 line whip and voted in favour of the Government and against Corbyn.


----------



## KittenKong

We expected Tories and the DUP naturally to vote with the government but shame on these Labour MPs including Dennis Skinner.










This is not just about Brexit anymore, this is about a far right power grab these seven Labour MPs have contributed towards. I only hope Corbyn will discipline those MPs who defied the whip.

As for Brexit going smoothly this will make little to no difference. It's hardly going smoothly is it.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> We expected Tories and the DUP naturally to vote with the government but shame on these Labour MPs including Dennis Skinner.
> 
> View attachment 324702
> 
> 
> This is not just about Brexit anymore, this is about a far right power grab these seven Labour MPs have contributed towards. I only hope Corbyn will discipline those MPs who defied the whip.
> 
> As for Brexit going smoothly this will make little to no difference. It's hardly going smoothly is it.....


You do know a number of amendments will be put forward in the committee stage to change the bill. I wasn't happy about the Henry the 8th clause but was totally infavour of the Bill. The bill needs to go through so that Brexit happens. Before you jump down my throat, the bill has to go through so that EU law is transferred into UK law so Brexit can happen. MP's can then change laws if they need to. The MP's will vote on the amendments before any changes if any are made.

Read my post previously on the Henry the 8th clause and I am not repeating it.

Brexit is on track by the way. The bill needs amendments before the 3rd reading and this is what they do in the committee stage and that is to decide which amendments need to be made. I am hoping they drop the Henry the 8th clause?
The bill may well come back unamended. MP's vote on a third reading before the bill goes to the House of Lords then back to House of Commons before going to the Queen who signs the bill into law.

This is a helpful link to explain what happens next: http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/passage-bill/commons/coms-commons-first-reading/ This is how democracy works in the UK.


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat. It was passed in the early hours. I wonder if Corbyn will sack any Labour MPs who defied him .


Bit of a hypocrite if he does, given he has rebelled 428 times in his career


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> We expected Tories and the DUP naturally to vote with the government but shame on these Labour MPs including Dennis Skinner.
> 
> View attachment 324702
> 
> 
> This is not just about Brexit anymore, this is about a far right power grab these seven Labour MPs have contributed towards. I only hope Corbyn will discipline those MPs who defied the whip.
> 
> As for Brexit going smoothly this will make little to no difference. It's hardly going smoothly is it.....


Ha, silly me, I thought this was a democracy


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Brexit is on track by the way.


You cannot be serious. Let's see, a quarter of the time gone and nothing has been sorted or agreed. Things like euratom and open skies haven't even been touched yet as we are still on citizens rights (should have been an easy one), the bill and ireland. I suppose you could say we are on track simply as after 2 years we jump off that cliff...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You cannot be serious. Let's see, a quarter of the time gone and nothing has been sorted or agreed. Things like euratom and open skies haven't even been touched yet as we are still on citizens rights (should have been an easy one), the bill and ireland. I suppose you could say we are on track simply as after 2 years we jump off that cliff...


Yes I am being serious.

The UK if no deal is made according to official EU documents I posted a link to on here yesterday say, all EU treaties and Laws cease to apply after the 2 year negotiation period unless a deal is made or the EU grant a 2 year extention. So it makes sense to pull all EU law into UK law. I am sure Davis and Barnier have repeatedly said both sides need to work a deal out.

Look how indepth the talks are its not simple you know. You can do this on the link I posted yesterday. Of course there is going to be disagreements along the way and yes the media are making things worse. But according to the EU the UK will be leaving on the 29th March 2019 unless they grant an extension to the talks.

Brexit is on track.

Not saying anything else as I dont want to get into a debate with you.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You do know a number of amendments will be put forward in the committee stage to change the bill. I wasn't happy about the Henry the 8th clause but was totally infavour of the Bill. The bill needs to go through so that Brexit happens. Before you jump down my throat, the bill has to go through so that EU law is transferred into UK law so Brexit can happen. MP's can then change laws if they need to. The MP's will vote on the amendments before any changes if any are made.
> 
> Read my post previously on the Henry the 8th clause and I am not repeating it.
> 
> Brexit is on track by the way. The bill needs amendments before the 3rd reading and this is what they do in the committee stage and that is to decide which amendments need to be made. I am hoping they drop the Henry the 8th clause?
> The bill may well come back unamended. MP's vote on a third reading before the bill goes to the House of Lords then back to House of Commons before going to the Queen who signs the bill into law.
> 
> This is a helpful link to explain what happens next: http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/passage-bill/commons/coms-commons-first-reading/ This is how democracy works in the UK.


Yes we know Brexit is on its way. I commented it wasn't going smoothly which it clearly isn't. The UK will leave, most likely with no deal, at the date you specified.

The new relationship May keeps on about will be a hostile one with the UK and EU becoming enemies. Brexiteers are getting their hard Brexit with complete isolation from Europe they so desire.

As for the Henry VIII clause this is well and truly on track. You can't have the repeal bill without it. Do you honestly believe May will back down on this now she has supreme power again?

May will get her way I don't doubt that at all.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The new relationship* May keeps on about will be a hostile one with the UK and EU becoming enemies. *...


I doubt that. The countries contained within the EU are bound by UN treaties and the UK is not leaving the UN and will also be remaining a part of Europe.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> As for the Henry VIII clause this is well and truly on track.


Rubbish. How many MP's in the debate yesterday said they are attending a round the table cross party discussion to have the executive powers (Henry the 8th clause) removed from the bill? They said they would only allow Government to have this power for a maximum of 2 years if it was granted but want to know in detail what Government would use this clause for so it is only used for these specific purposes as the Government have not detailed this yet so that Parliament still get a say.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I doubt that. The countries contained within the EU are bound by UN treaties and the UK is not leaving the UN and will also be remaining a part of Europe.


Nonsense, the UK IS leaving Europe.
I asked you to explain why you believe this to be correct which you didn't.

Brexiteers I know resent being part of Europe and called Europeans. They call themselves British and British alone.

Obviously I disagree with that!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Nonsense, the UK IS leaving Europe.
> I asked you to explain why you believe this to be correct which you didn't.
> 
> Brexiteers I know resent being part of Europe and called Europeans. They call themselves British and British alone.
> 
> Obviously I disagree with that!


Its not leaving Europe it is leaving the EU. Wow after 15 months you still dont get it.

But we are British. I was born British. I have never referred to myself as being born European at all its not identified as a nationality. The French are French, The Germans are Germans, the Dutch are Dutch and so on.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Rubbish. How many MP's in the debate yesterday said they are attending a round the table cross party discussion to have the executive powers (Henry the 8th clause) removed from the bill? They said they would only allow Government to have this power for a maximum of 2 years if it was granted but want to know in detail what Government would use this clause for so it is only used for these specific purposes as the Government have not detailed this yet so that Parliament still get a say.


So you still have faith in politicians? I've lost all mine and completely disillusioned with the UK and its politics.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Its not leaving Europe it is leaving the EU. Wow after 15 months you still dont get it.
> 
> But we are British. I was born British. I have never referred to myself as being born European at all its not identified as a nationality. The French are French, The Germans are Germand, the Dutch are Dutch and so on.


Explain what you mean by that as I haven't a clue. Oh yes you couldn't when I asked you the last time.

No need to try and wind me up. You've got what you wanted.

I refuse to call myself British anymore. I'm far too ashamed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> So you still have faith in politicians? I've lost all mine and completely disillusioned with the UK and its politics.


It is a democratic process what is happening with the bill at the moment.

Have I lost faith in the politicians? Not quite yet no.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Explain what you mean by that as I haven't a clue. Oh yes you couldn't when I asked you the last time.


 You think we are leaving Europe we aren't we are leaving the club called the EU who govern trade and movement across countries and borders within Europe. It is physically impossible for the Uk to leave Europe.


> I refuse to call myself British anymore. I'm far too ashamed.


Your choice. So what is your nationality know bearing in mind European isn't a recognised nationality like British, French, German, Spanish, Croatian, Irish, American, Russian, Korean, Australian, Japanese, Mexican, Greek etc are all recognised as nationalities. Collectively people call themselves European who live in countries within Europe no one was born European.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You think we are leaving Europe we aren't we are leaving the club called the EU who govern trade and movement across Europe. It is physically impossible for the Uk to leave Europe.
> Your choice. So what is your nationality know bearing in mind European isn't a recognised nationality like British, French, German, Spanish, Croatian, Irish, American, Russian, Korean, Japanese are all recognised as nationalities. Collectively people call themselves European.


Of course the UK is physically part of Europe, arguably so are parts of the former USSR that are not in the EU.

The UK government is determined to rid everything remotely European that's the difference. So effectively the UK is leaving Europe and anything to do with its culture.

As for nationality I'm an English European, perhaps I should narrow that down to Northumbrian European!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Of course the UK is physically part of Europe, arguably so are parts of the former USSR.
> 
> The UK government is determined to rid everything remotely European that's the difference. So effectively the UK is leaving Europe and anything to do with its culture.
> 
> As for nationality I'm an English European, perhaps I should narrow that down to Northumbrian European!


Yes but European isn't defined as a nationality. Does it say British European on the page of your passport with your photo on it? No. Mine says British. When I applied for my passport nowhere on the application form did it say British European or European at all as an option for nationality choices.

I respect your not happy with what is going on and you can unoffically describe yourself as what you want to be described but officially youre still British unless you apply for dual natioanlity and take up citizenship of another country and renounce your British Citizenship. But even doing this your nationality still will not be European it will be of the country you decided to take citizenship up in eg French, German, Spanish etc.


----------



## Bisbow

[QUOTE="KittenKong, post: 1064971178, member: 1431226"

I refuse to call myself British anymore. I'm far too ashamed.[/QUOTE]

If you are so ashamed to be British why stay here, go somewhere were you will feel more comfortable

That is if there is such a place to fill your needs


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Of course the UK is physically part of Europe, arguably so are parts of the former USSR that are not in the EU.
> 
> The UK government is determined to rid everything remotely European that's the difference. So effectively the UK is leaving Europe and anything to do with its culture.
> 
> As for nationality I'm an English European, perhaps I should narrow that down to Northumbrian European!


I'll bite. What is the "European culture"? I've never noticed a general culture between any European countries. If fact isn't Europe famously diverse culture wise?


----------



## Elles

I'm English. When I'm playing an mmo and we chat about nationality or where we're from I usually say uk or England, others say their country, or I would say English and they would say Romanian, or Russian, or Dutch, or whatever. It points out first language too, even though we're all typing English. 

I'm neither proud, nor ashamed to be English. It's just what I am and I'd be the same me if I lived somewhere else.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK if no deal is made according to official EU documents I posted a link to on here yesterday say, all EU treaties and Laws cease to apply after the 2 year negotiation period unless a deal is made or the EU grant a 2 year extention. So it makes sense to pull all EU law into UK law. I am sure Davis and Barnier have repeatedly said both sides need to work a deal out.


Ignoring the fact that leaving is far more than simply copy pasting laws and changing some when the government doesn't like them. Euratom, open skies, borders, medical etc etc. All of those need to have replacements or we need to stay in them in some form. How much work has been completed there for replacements and how much time is needed?

Oh we can have a hard brexit where after we leave we have airlines grounded, hard border with Ireland etc and loosely that can be called on track. Impossible not to be on track by that definition. Not a good definition of on track though.

As for being British, nope, I'm English, then British then European just as someone from Australia is likely to call themselves Australian then Antipodean. As for culture well, if people don't appreciate the commonalities within europe, that is their loss. Scotland Wales and England also are different although similar. Simply where you put that dividing line. Go to europe then go to Japan. Where would people find themselves more at home due to cultural similarities?


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am British because I was born in Northern Ireland but English is my first language not Irish. I think British originally described someone who lived outside of England, Scotland and Wales who setup life in one of these three countries. But I do believe British is more widely used now to describe people born in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and any of the overseas British Territories.

I think I have this right and I am up for being corrected on the above statement.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I am British because I was born in Northern Ireland but English is my first language not Irish.


You are British as you qualify for a British passport. A welsh person is far more likely to refer to themselves as Welsh rather than british, same with Scots despite having a british passport.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Ignoring the fact that leaving is far more than simply copy pasting laws and changing some when the government doesn't like them. Euratom, open skies, borders, medical etc etc. All of those need to have replacements or we need to stay in them in some form.


 I know that but these are to being discussed in later stages of the Brexit process and Michel Barnier and David Davis have repeatedly said. Stage one is what they are concerntrating on at the moment, from which David Davis said they are close to finialising parts of but other parts need more indepth negotiating and scrutiny from the ministers involved in the Brexit process. Everyone is currently frustrated at the speed the talks are going but Davis has said the UK is on schedule for the October deadline for stage one of the negotiations. It maybe extended who knows as the Brexit bill may not be finailised on until towards the end of the negotiations next October (2018) and the Government have said they are not willing to hand the EU a blank cheque.


> Oh we can have a hard brexit where after we leave we have airlines grounded, hard border with Ireland etc and loosely that can be called on track.


I know but the Ireland border issue is in stage one of the negotiations, which involves many other issues surrounding this that have been recognised during the negotiations which both sides have said they recognise need dealing with. Yes the EU's side of the negotiations is all about what the EU want but the UK's side is also about what the UK wants and they need to find common ground so the talks can move forward thats what negotiations are like. Remember the UK is still learning as we have not independently negotiated with anyone for 44 years as a country. So the EU negotiations are a learning curb so to speak as well.

The EU leaders made it clear in there official documents that if no deal is reached all directives, laws and deals will cease if no deal is reached on the 29th March 2019 if no extenstion period is granted. The UK would then technically be on WTO rules. Bear in mind the EU Parliament clearly stated they wanted brexit out of the way before the next European elections in 2019 I think it was.


----------



## Elles




----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You are British as you qualify for a British passport. A welsh person is far more likely to refer to themselves as Welsh rather than british, same with Scots despite having a british passport.


Yes but I don't define myself as Irish all my life I have defined myself as British. Yes I hold a British passport and have a Northern Irish Birth Certificate. Even my dad doesn't define himself as Irish but defines himself as British and he was born and raised in Northern Ireland. I have never refered to myself as European not because I hate Europe (because I don't) or want to leave the EU or don't consider myself as European (I just wanted to clairfy that before this statement gets twisted).

My response was to @KittenKong regarding nationalities and the fact that European isn't a nationality it's a collective name people use to identify themselves as living in a European country that is part of Europe.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Everyone is currently frustrated at the speed the talks are going but Davis has said the UK is on schedule for the October deadline


Well then as David Davis has said it, it must be true, his record is impeccable after all.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...dline-slip-december-says-european-parliament/
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk...to-miss-october-deadline-as-impatience-grows/

Of course we could look at all the "detailed" plans and papers released by the government and what they say..






Maybe when government stop playing to the UK public and actually knuckle down to the task at hand.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Well then as David Davis has said it, it must be true. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...dline-slip-december-says-european-parliament/
> 
> Of course we could look at all the "detailed" plans and papers released by the government and what they say..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe whe government stop playing to the UK public and actually knuckle down to the task at hand.


But the Government is getting on with it. Alot goes on behind the scenes you don't see. What do you think last nights debate and vote was about? The EU withdrawal bill last night vote was a process of brexit.

The UK negotiating team and PM has requested more negotiations with the EU to intensify the talks. Before you jump in there the EU said in there position paper that they are only willing to give 4 days every 4 weeks for Brexit talks unless it is requested to intensify them and the EU Parliament agrees to intensify them. We are awaiting a response to the request made at the last round of negotiations to intensify the negotiations and talks. The EU Parliament have not responded yet nor has Barnier.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> I'm English. When I'm playing an mmo and we chat about nationality or where we're from I usually say uk or England, others say their country, or I would say English and they would say Romanian, or Russian, or Dutch, or whatever. It points out first language too, even though we're all typing English.
> 
> I'm neither proud, nor ashamed to be English. It's just what I am and I'd be the same me if I lived somewhere else.


I'm English as well, when I fill a form I ways put English never British, I just hate the thought of been British.

If you from Wales your Welch, Scotland your a Scot, and Ireland you Irish, so why not English


----------



## kimthecat

I prefer to refer to myself as English but we seem to get called Brits so refer to myself as British sometimes .
I don't feel "European" but that doesn't mean to say I don't appreciate the beautiful European countries or the people from those countries .

I refer to my self as a Londoner but don't really feel I am . I was born in the county of Middlesex and then it became part of Greater London. Middlesex no longer exists except as postal address so if I said I come from Middlesex , people wouldn't know where that was . 

Even when we leave the EU , we will still be European .


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


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## stockwellcat.

.


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## Jesthar

I'm 3/4 English, 1/4 Scottish. If Scotland get special concessions from the EU, I'll be playing that 1/4 for all it's worth


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> But the Government is getting on with it. Alot goes on behind the scenes you don't see. What do you think last nights debate and vote was about? The EU withdrawal bill last night vote was a process of brexit.


A part which is solely based on UK procedures.



> The UK negotiating team and PM has requested more negotiations with the EU to intensify the talks. Before you jump in there the EU said in there position paper that they are only willing to give 4 days every 4 weeks for Brexit talks unless it is requested to intensify them and the EU Parliament agrees to intensify them. We are awaiting a response to the request made at the last round of negotiations to intensify the negotiations and talks. The EU Parliament have not responded yet nor has Barnier.


Intensify what exactly? Now it sounds great in the media but that sums up brexit doesn't it.. Take back control.. No deal is better than a bad deal.. Intensify talks... It's when you get into what the soundbites actually mean that the government runs into problems.

Edit: It's great a week's worth of negotiations at the last session lasted a total of 48 hours, demonstrating how "intensify negotiations" would likely be.


----------



## shadowmare

Always found it quite interesting how most Scottish and N Irish people I met would refer to themselves as Scottish and Irish much more often than English 
I was born in Russia to a Russian/Lithuanian couple, grew up in Lithuania since I was 3, lived the best 2 years of my teenage life in Brussels, and have been living in Scotland for 9 years. I consider myself a European. I connect to every country I've lived in in different ways, different bits of their cultures are close to me. What am I? Lithuanian? That's what my passport says, but I wasn't born there nor have I lived there for the last 11 years. Lithuanian is also not my first language anymore as I only speak it once every 1-2 weeks for 20mins. Russian? Why? Just because that's where I was born and I still speak fluent Russian? Nope. Am I Belgian? Definitely not, as the best memories are of me being part of the European school community. Not Lithuanian, not English but all of my friends from Sweden, Germany, Ireland, England, Portugal etc. Am I Brittish then since this is where I consider my home? Nope. Never met a Welsh person and have never been able to connect with any English people I met. Am I Scottish because I fell in love with the country, love Scottish accent and people who are my best frinds? I'd take a Scottish passport in a heartbeat if it meant I could stay living here without being harassed by the English government. Alas, the rest of the island made me feel just uncomfortable enough to move back to Europe where I'd feel more welcomed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I had to bite. Sorry.



> *Intensify what exactly?*


Well you're right there because Barnier doesn't seem to want to negotiate. Negotiations goes two ways and Barnier doesn't seem to want a two way conversation let alone negotiation. A negotiation is about giving and taking not saying accept this, this is the way we want it, we reject everything you say (Barnier says he is frustrated, why? because our negotiation team aren't will to roll over and accept what the EU demands). Which seems to be the general attitude that Barnier has at the moment. How can you negotiate with someone who won't negotiate then tells the opposite party in the negotiations that they live in fantasy land. To me the EU is being difficult. That is my opinion. Now we all know what will happen don't we if the EU don't stop being like this don't we? That's right either the Uk will walk away or the negotiations will time out on 29th March 2019.

Sorry rant over now.


----------



## Jonescat

stockwellcat. said:


> I am British because I was born in Northern Ireland but English is my first language not Irish. I think British originally described someone who lived outside of England, Scotland and Wales who setup life in one of these three countries. But I do believe British is more widely used now to describe people born in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and any of the overseas British Territories.
> 
> I think I have this right and I am up for being corrected on the above statement.


My understanding of this that Britons were what the Romans called the people who lived in their province of Britannia - England up to Hadrian's wall, Wales but not Ireland. When the Anglo-Saxons arrived they were Angles (later English and the country became England), and Britons were the locals. Scotland and Ireland were still not included. Eventually James 1st and 6th titled himself king of Great Britain, France and Ireland - making "Great Britain" for the first time, and including Scotland. Ireland got dragged in by association, and this formalised about a hundred years later with the formation of the United Kingdom but it was and remained still Ireland. This didn't change with separation - Britain is England and Wales, Great Britain is England Scotland and Wales, and the UK is Great Britain is England Scotland and Wales and N Ireland. Happy to be corrected.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I had to bite. Sorry.
> 
> Well you're right there because Barnier doesn't seem to want to negotiate. Negotiations goes two ways and Barnier doesn't seem to want a two way conversation let alone negotiation. A negotiation is about giving and taking not saying accept this, this is the way we want it, we reject everything you say (Barnier says he is frustrated, why? because our negotiation team aren't will to roll over and accept what the EU demands). Which seems to be the general attitude that Barnier has at the moment. How can you negotiate with someone who won't negotiate then tells the opposite party in the negotiations that they live in fantasy land. To me the EU is being difficult. That is my opinion. Now we all know what will happen don't we if the EU don't stop being like this don't we? That's right either the Uk will walk away or the negotiations will time out on 29th March 2019.
> 
> Sorry rant over now.


Intensify the UK leaving with no deal that is. I know you are on the side of Theresa May and her Brexiteers so it's not surprising you take that view.

You forget it's not only the people you mention but also the 27 member states who have to agree with the UK government's unreasonable demands.

Countries like Norway and Switzerland have proven they can work with the EU even though they are not in the EU.

So if anyone's being disruptive and unreasonable it's the UK government, not the EU.

As I said earlier even if I supported Brexit I wouldn't trust this lot handling it. To be disruptive is seen as strength to these idiots and their friends in the press. In reality it's making the country look more stupid by the day.

I am and will remain 100% on the side of the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> My understanding of this that Britons were what the Romans called the people who lived in their province of Britannia - England up to Hadrian's wall, Wales but not Ireland. When the Anglo-Saxons arrived they were Angles (later English and the country became England), and Britons were the locals. Scotland and Ireland were still not included. Eventually James 1st and 6th titled himself king of Great Britain, France and Ireland - making "Great Britain" for the first time, and including Scotland. Ireland got dragged in by association, and this formalised about a hundred years later with the formation of the United Kingdom but it was and remained still Ireland. This didn't change with separation - Britain is England and Wales, Great Britain is England Scotland and Wales, and the UK is Great Britain is England Scotland and Wales and N Ireland. Happy to be corrected.


Wow I didn't know that.

I thought it was something to do with this:

In Northern Ireland, national identity is complex and diverse. The three most common identities are British, Northern Irish and Irish. Most people of Protestant background consider themselves British, while a majority of people of Catholic background consider themselves Irish. This has origins in the 17th century Plantation of Ulster, when mainly-Catholic Ukster was colonized by Protestant settlers from Great Britain.

In the early 20th century, most Ulster Protestants and Catholics saw themselves as Irish, although Protestants tended to have a much stronger sense of Britishness. With the onset of the Home Rule Crisis and events that followed, Protestants gradually began to abandon Irish identity, as Irishness and Britishness became more and more to be seen as mutually exclusive. In 1968 - just before the onset of the Troubles - 39% of Protestants described themselves as British and 20% described themselves as Irish, while 32% chose an Ulster identity.By 1978, following the worst years of the conflict, there had been a large shift in identity amongst Protestants, with the majority (67%) now calling themselves British and only 8% calling themselves Irish.This shift has not been reversed. Meanwhile, the majority of Catholics have continued to see themselves as Irish.

From 1989, 'Northern Irish' began to be included as an identity choice in surveys, and its popularity has grown since then. Some organizations have promoted 'Northern Irish' identity as a way of overcoming sectarian division. In a 1998 survey of students, this was one of the main reasons they gave for choosing that identity, along with a desire to appear 'neutral'. However, surveys show that 'Northern Irish' identity tends to have different meanings for Catholics and Protestants. Surveys also show that those choosing 'Northern Irish' regard their national identity as less important than those choosing British and Irish.

I come from a Catholic background but dad always told us we was British.


----------



## kimthecat

shadowmare said:


> Always found it quite interesting how most Scottish and N Irish people I met would refer to themselves as Scottish and Irish much more often than English


because the Scots and Welsh are allowed to feel proud to be Scots and Welsh. 
The English are made to feel racist and bad about the way the Irish , Welsh and Scots were treated. Also because of awful groups such as English Defence League fly the St Georges flag so decent people don't want to become associated with them . People don't even celebrate St Georges day much .
The only time i fly the St Georges flag is to support the English football team .



> I was born in Russia to a Russian/Lithuanian couple, grew up in Lithuania since I was 3, lived the best 2 years of my teenage life in Brussels, and have been living in Scotland for 9 years. I consider myself a European. I connect to every country I've lived in in different ways, different bits of their cultures are close to me. What am I? Lithuanian? That's what my passport says, but I wasn't born there nor have I lived there for the last 11 years. Lithuanian is also not my first language anymore as I only speak it once every 1-2 weeks for 20mins. Russian? Why? Just because that's where I was born and I still speak fluent Russian? Nope. Am I Belgian? Definitely not, as the best memories are of me being part of the European school community. Not Lithuanian, not English but all of my friends from Sweden, Germany, Ireland, England, Portugal etc. Am I Brittish then since this is where I consider my home? Nope. Never met a Welsh person and have never been able to connect with any English people I met. Am I Scottish because I fell in love with the country, love Scottish accent and people who are my best frinds? I'd take a Scottish passport in a heartbeat if it meant I could stay living here without being harassed by the English government. Alas, the rest of the island made me feel just uncomfortable enough to move back to Europe where I'd feel more welcomed.


wow , that's quite a story , amazing the people you know . my part of West London , we have many people from Europe , middle east , Somalia and Asia . Some have live here for years, some born here and some more recent arrivals . Most speak English fortunately as i only know some French and a few words of German .

I'm sorry you feel you cant stay in Scotland 
Have you been contacted by the government at all yet ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Intensify the UK leaving with no deal that is. I know you are on the side of Theresa May and her Brexiteers so it's not surprising you take that view.


 Ok if you say so. At the moment I just want whoever is going to do these negotiations to stick to their word and achieve what was voted for last year.

Leave means leave. Shall we look up the dictionary definition of the word leave:


*1*.
go away from.
"she left London on June 6"
synonyms: depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from, take one's leave of, pull out of, quit, be gone from, decamp from, disappear from, abandon, vacate, absent oneself from, evacuate;
say one's farewells/goodbyes, make off, clear out, make oneself scarce, check out;
abscond from, run away from, flee (from), fly from, bolt from, go AWOL,take French leave, escape (from);
_informal_push off, shove off, cut, cut and run, do a bunk, do a disappearing act, split, vamoose,scoot, clear off, take off, make tracks, up sticks, pack one's bags,flit;
_informal_sling one's hook
"I left the hotel"
set off, head, make, begin one's journey, set sail
"the next morning we left for Leicester."
Leave does not mean stay.



> Countries like Norway and Switzerland have proven they can work with the EU even though they are not in the EU.


 Yes but they have to pay into the pockets of the EU each year so they can trade with the EU but don't get a say on anything.



> As I said earlier even if I supported Brexit I wouldn't trust this lot handling it.


Who would you trust then? Corbyn who changes his mind every 5 minutes?


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes but European isn't defined as a nationality. Does it say British European on the page of your passport with your photo on it? No. Mine says British. When I applied for my passport nowhere on the application form did it say British European or European at all as an option for nationality choices.
> 
> I respect your not happy with what is going on and you can unoffically describe yourself as what you want to be described but officially youre still British unless you apply for dual natioanlity and take up citizenship of another country and renounce your British Citizenship. But even doing this your nationality still will not be European it will be of the country you decided to take citizenship up in eg French, German, Spanish etc.


@stockwellcat. PLEASE can you spell it out to them that Europe is a_ continent _and that we are part of it as well as being British. _We will still be part of it after Brexit_. Nothing that happens in Brussels will change that. The French are part of it as well as being French . . . likewise the Germans . . . What bit of that don't they understand? We are not leaving Europe. Now I know why I stopped posting on this thread.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> @stockwellcat. PLEASE can you spell it out to them that Europe is a_ continent _and that we are part of it as well as being British. _We will still be part of it after Brexit_. Nothing that happens in Brussels will change that. The French are part of it as well as being French . . . likewise the Germans . . . What bit of that don't they understand? We are not leaving Europe. Now I know why I stopped posting on this thread.


They don't understand any of it. 
Headache isn't. Right I need to give my brain cells a break from this sillyness. I have things to do.

Thank you for spelling it out to them.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> @stockwellcat. PLEASE can you spell it out to them that Europe is a_ continent _and that we are part of it as well as being British. _We will still be part of it after Brexit_. Nothing that happens in Brussels will change that. The French are part of it as well as being French . . . likewise the Germans . . . What bit of that don't they understand? We are not leaving Europe. Now I know why I stopped posting on this thread.


I suggest you read my reply again.
Of course the UK is part of Europe geographically, that can't be changed.

What the government are doing is eliminating anything remotely European from the UK which is the difference. So the effect of hard Brexit and the rapid departure from the single market and customs union with the chaos that will result is leaving Europe.

You wouldn't call the Falkland Islands part of South America would you?!

I'm surprised at your comment actually, I thought you'd be pleased this government are removing all traces of Europe from this "glorious" nation.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> What the government are doing is eliminating anything remotely European from the UK which is the difference. .


 like what ? croissants ?


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## Elles

How are the government going to do that? Ban French sticks and Greek yogurt from supermarkets? Kick out Lidl and Aldi? Crush their own mercs? They aren't going to be getting rid of all of the Eu and will still be paying something into it I have no doubt. They'll probably have to on terrorism and security for a start. And that's just the Eu not Europe. They can't get rid rid of Lattes from Costa and Pizza from Pizza Hut. Chanel no 5, Italian leather. There's no chance of anyone taking Europe out of the UK. There'd be riots.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> I had to bite. Sorry.
> 
> Well you're right there because Barnier doesn't seem to want to negotiate. Negotiations goes two ways and Barnier doesn't seem to want a two way conversation let alone negotiation. A negotiation is about giving and taking not saying accept this, this is the way we want it, we reject everything you say (Barnier says he is frustrated, why? because our negotiation team aren't will to roll over and accept what the EU demands). Which seems to be the general attitude that Barnier has at the moment. How can you negotiate with someone who won't negotiate then tells the opposite party in the negotiations that they live in fantasy land. To me the EU is being difficult. That is my opinion. Now we all know what will happen don't we if the EU don't stop being like this don't we? That's right either the Uk will walk away or the negotiations will time out on 29th March 2019.
> 
> Sorry rant over now.


Perhaps if our negotiation team were, say, willing to negotiate first the bits that the EU rules say have to be negotiated first, there would be less frustration all round...

We knew well in advance what had to be negotiated, and in what order. We can't expect due process to be ditched just because we want to talk about something that isn't due to be discussed until much later in the process.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I had to bite. Sorry.
> 
> Well you're right there because Barnier doesn't seem to want to negotiate. Negotiations goes two ways and Barnier doesn't seem to want a two way conversation let alone negotiation.


We are the ones leaving, not the EU. Of course we also have the UK "plans". Empty table on the UK side springs to mind. Interesting to note that during the election debate here brexit wasn't even mentioned. So much for they need us more than we need them. Makes you wonder why David Davis complains when the EU insists on following the timetable he personally agreed to at the start.



> To me the EU is being difficult. That is my opinion.


It's what media is certainly telling you. The position of the EU is simple.. you made commitments and you need to stick to them. You can't have benefits of being a member without being a member. Obvious if you ask me, why should they accept anything different? As for Barnier not wanting to negotiate, the whole idea of trade deal being discussed before negotiations are completed is a concession. Article 50 has nothing to do with trade negotiations and access to the single market. They are separated by EU law and need diffferent democratic processes to agree them.


----------



## Elles

I thought it was being discussed in order, but offers have to be gone over with a fine tooth comb on either side. There's a lot of small print to go over. I don't think it's reasonable to want each order of the day to be done and dusted before taking the next step though. If that is what's happening. Maybe as each offer is turned down, the next step could be quicker though. There has to be some room for manoeuvre and flexibility, no one's done this before. It's not like negotiating a deal on dragon's den, where they can talk to the wall is it.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Ok if you say so. At the moment I just want whoever is going to do these negotiations to stick to their word and achieve what was voted for last year.
> 
> Leave means leave. Shall we look up the dictionary definition of the word leave:
> 
> 
> *1*.
> go away from.
> "she left London on June 6"
> synonyms: depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from, take one's leave of, pull out of, quit, be gone from, decamp from, disappear from, abandon, vacate, absent oneself from, evacuate;
> say one's farewells/goodbyes, make off, clear out, make oneself scarce, check out;
> abscond from, run away from, flee (from), fly from, bolt from, go AWOL,take French leave, escape (from);
> _informal_push off, shove off, cut, cut and run, do a bunk, do a disappearing act, split, vamoose,scoot, clear off, take off, make tracks, up sticks, pack one's bags,flit;
> _informal_sling one's hook
> "I left the hotel"
> set off, head, make, begin one's journey, set sail
> "the next morning we left for Leicester."
> Leave does not mean stay.
> 
> Yes but they have to pay into the pockets of the EU each year so they can trade with the EU but don't get a say on anything.
> 
> Who would you trust then? Corbyn who changes his mind every 5 minutes?


Do you know a Scottish devolution referendum a few years back resulted in 52% for and 48% against?
Against actually "won" as the turnout didn't reach the required minimum percentage turn out.

Yet they say 52% of the 37% who bothered to vote is the "will of the people"? Not only was it advisory but no minimum percentage level was set. Of course it's possible many who didn't vote would have voted for Brexit if they had done after the universal massive advertisement by 95% of the media.

Leaving the European Union doesn't mean having to sacrifice the customs union or single market whatever May and indeed Corbyn say or have said. They only have to look at Norway and Switzerland as examples.

The government talk about deals with the EU so it's clear they want some access to the areas they've liked but only on UK terms. They've been told no cherry-picking. Quite rightly too.

As for Corbyn, yes I'm unhappy at his stance over the past few months but feel his team could negotiate far better. The unilateral guaranteeing of existing citizens rights to remain in the UK is a very good start to sensible negotiations rather than point scoring and using human beings as bargaining chips which might not bother you but I find despicable. We're talking about people who work and have contributed to society. If the UK was remotely decent they should be grateful and thankful they want to live and work here, yet they're told they're no longer welcome.

The behaviour of May and her Brexiteers is no better than Farage's taunting at other MEPs after the Brexit vote.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I thought it was being discussed in order, but offers have to be gone over with a fine tooth comb on either side. There's a lot of small print to go over. I don't think it's reasonable to want each order of the day to be done and dusted before taking the next step though. If that is what's happening. Maybe as each offer is turned down, the next step could be quicker though. There has to be some room for manoeuvre and flexibility, no one's done this before. It's not like negotiating a deal on dragon's den, where they can talk to the wall is it.


Which only demonstrates how the talks are not "on track" when after 6 months even the starting negotiation points have not been completed.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Elles said:


> How are the government going to do that? Ban French sticks and Greek yogurt from supermarkets? Kick out Lidl and Aldi? Crush their own mercs? They aren't going to be getting rid of all of the Eu and will still be paying something into it I have no doubt. They'll probably have to on terrorism and security for a start. And that's just the Eu not Europe. They can't get rid rid of Lattes from Costa and Pizza from Pizza Hut. Chanel no 5, Italian leather. There's no chance of anyone taking Europe out of the UK. There'd be riots.


Oh darn, so no more Belgium Buns, no Stollen at Christmas. Guess we can follow the USA with freedom fries rather than French though. On the plus side English wine is improving in leaps and bounds but I will miss a decent Provence Rose. As you say no more Mercedes or VAG cars, we'll just be left with BMW (that is British Motor Works isn't it?).

I have to apologise, it does indeed appear I didn't know what I was voting for.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Wow just seen how many amendments are to be tabled for the European Withdrawal Bill. An eye watering 157 proposed amendments covering 59 pages. Back bench Conservative MP's have said their vote for the bill last night was conditional that the bill must be amended before the 3rd reading otherwise they will vote against it. The amendments include the removal of the Henry the 8th clause.

Its going to be hard for the Government to get this bill through as it currently stands.


----------



## Elles

I agree with the unilateral guarantee of Eu citizen's rights in the uk. If already living and working here, the guarantee should be lifetime and include close family. As should it also be for uk residents who marry outside the uk. One of the sticking points is that the Eu want lifetime and close family. The uk said that would give current Eu citizens more rights than uk citizens. So a novel idea would be to give uk citizens more rights, rather than Eu citizens fewer rights, to make them match. I haven't read anywhere anyone suggesting that though.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I agree with the unilateral guarantee of Eu citizen's rights in the uk. If already living and working here, the guarantee should be lifetime and include close family. As should it also be for uk residents who marry outside the uk. One of the sticking points is that the Eu want lifetime and close family. The uk said that would give current Eu citizens more rights than uk citizens. So a novel idea would be to give uk citizens more rights, rather than Eu citizens fewer rights, to make them match. *I haven't read anywhere anyone suggesting that though*.


Doubt you will from the negotiating team or the government. Less rights, not more, for your average UK citizen seems to be more where they are focussing. Hence all the talk about deregulating the labour market, etc.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Do you know a Scottish devolution referendum a few years back resulted in 52% for and 48% against?
> Against actually "won" as the turnout didn't reach the required minimum percentage turn out.
> 
> Yet they say 52% of the 37% who bothered to vote is the "will of the people"? Not only was it advisory but no minimum percentage level was set. Of course it's possible many who didn't vote would have voted for Brexit if they had done after the universal massive advertisement by 95% of the media.
> 
> Leaving the European Union doesn't mean having to sacrifice the customs union or single market whatever May and indeed Corbyn say or have said. They only have to look at Norway and Switzerland as examples.
> 
> The government talk about deals with the EU so it's clear they want some access to the areas they've liked but only on UK terms. They've been told no cherry-picking. Quite rightly too.
> 
> As for Corbyn, yes I'm unhappy at his stance over the past few months but feel his team could negotiate far better. The unilateral guaranteeing of existing citizens rights to remain in the UK is a very good start to sensible negotiations rather than point scoring and using human beings as bargaining chips which might not bother you but I find despicable. We're talking about people who work and have contributed to society. If the UK was remotely decent they should be grateful and thankful they want to live and work here, yet they're told they're no longer welcome.
> 
> The behaviour of May and her Brexiteers is no better than Farage's taunting at other MEPs after the Brexit vote.


So if you was a Brexit supporter and voted for Brexit who would you trust to do the negotiations?

I know you wouldn't have voted for Brexit as you have made that clear. I am just interested as you don't like May or Corbyn (and his 57 shades of Brexit that keep changing like today he has changed his mind again) leaders of the only two parties in Parliament that have a chance of leading these negotiations.

Please also explain why you chose this person. Why do you think they could do better than David Davis and his team as David Davis has known Michel Barnier for 20 years and has worked with Michel Barnier before?

Please don't answer nobody or the EU.

Serious question.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I suggest you read my reply again.


I don't recall quoting you.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> So if you was a Brexit supporter and voted for Brexit who would you trust to do the negotiations?
> 
> .


Obviously it would be Sir Keith Sterner and his team. Even to a hard remainer such as I am his more plausible negotiating stance gives hope of a gradual departure with a hope of staying in the customs union and single market. Obviously not exactly what I would have wished for as a gradual departure will still have a period of uncertainty .

With Corbyn my one and only gripe with him is about Brexit. Apart from that I back him all the way.

As for Davis I remember his objection and hostility towards Tony Blair's proposed snoopers charter. I agreed with him on that. Now May is in charge he doesn't voice any objection to her implementing it.

A punishment budget was planned post Brexit. We got a punishment government instead.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Of course the UK is physically part of Europe, arguably so are parts of the former USSR that are not in the EU.
> 
> The UK government is determined to rid everything remotely European that's the difference. So effectively the UK is leaving Europe and anything to do with its culture.
> 
> As for nationality I'm an English European, perhaps I should narrow that down to Northumbrian European!





Calvine said:


> I don't recall quoting you.


No you didn't personally. I've quoted my original reply to SWC above.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Obviously it would be Sir Keith Sterner and his team. Even to a hard remainer such as I am his more plausible negotiating stance gives hope of a gradual departure with a hope of staying in the customs union and single market. Obviously not exactly what I would have wished for as a gradual departure will still have a period of uncertainty .
> 
> With Corbyn my one and only gripe with him is about Brexit. Apart from that I back him all the way.
> 
> As for Davis I remember his objection and hostility towards Tony Blair's proposed snoopers charter. I agreed with him on that. Now May is in charge he doesn't voice any objection to her implementing it.
> 
> A punishment budget was planned post Brexit. We got a punishment government instead.


Your answer is interesting.

It was pointed out last night in the debate before the vote that labour is in pieces regarding Brexit as they all have different expectations and ideas especially on the front bench. Every single Labour MP on the front bench has a different expectation from Brexit than the other and I suppose this is why they change their minds every 5 days at present.

Kier Starmer has a total different opinion to Corbyn and the rest of the front bench and party as a whole. MP's pointed this out last night on the Conservatives side. So that is why I am glad the Labour party aren't doing this. I know you will object to this statement.

I understand why you chose Kier Starmer as he would probably offer something close to what the UK has at the moment with the EU with a super long transitional deal during which we continue throwing money at the EU whilst we are in the transitional process which would probably end up with another referendum at the end of it. We'd have no say on anything in that the EU decide. We'd probably end up like Greece, on the brink of bankruptcy with this idea though.

There I tried to keep an open mind.

Thank you for your answer though.

*Summary in my opinion
*
The conservatives aren't perfect, but this type of negotiation has never been done before even the EU have said that. I don't think Labour would be able to do things any better. David Davis I agree needs to be more vocal on things he disagrees with. The negotiations do need to improve, I agree, so they can move onto stage 2. Hopefully they will in the next round? I hope as well that the EU will allow more intense talks as per there position papers state as the UK has requested this? I believe if the talks where intensified we might get somewhere with the EU otherwise there is a serious risk the talks will stall because we are only getting 4 days every 4 weeks with the EU negitiations which isn't alot of time at all.

No the conservatives aren't perfect but they are the ones in Government at present.

Am I frustrated with the Brexit Negotiations at present? This might shock you, but yes I am.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I understand why you chose Kier Starmer as he would probably offer something close to what the UK has at the moment with the EU with a super long transitional deal during which we continue throwing money at the EU whilst we are in the transitional process which would probably end up with another referendum at the end of it. We'd have no say on anything in that the EU decide. We'd probably end up like Greece, on the brink of bankruptcy with this idea though.
> 
> There I tried to keep an open mind.
> 
> Thank you for your answer though.
> 
> *Summary in my opinion
> *
> The conservatives aren't perfect, but this type of negotiation has never been done before even the EU have said that. I don't think Labour would be able to do things any better. David Davis I agree needs to be more vocal on things he disagrees with. The negotiations do need to improve, I agree, so they can move onto stage 2. Hopefully they will in the next round? I hope as well that the EU will allow more intense talks as per there position papers state as the UK has requested this? I believe if the talks where intensified we might get somewhere with the EU otherwise there is a serious risk the talks will stall because we are only getting 4 days every 4 weeks with the EU negitiations which isn't alot of time at all.
> 
> No the conservatives aren't perfect but they are the ones in Government at present.
> 
> Am I frustrated with the Brexit Negotiations at present? This might shock you, but yes I am.


The Conservatives are somewhat divided too, some like the idea of a gradual departure. It makes sense to me as you can't undo 44 years with an overnight departure on 29/3/19.

The risk of the UK ending up like Greece would never have arisen but obviously 52% of the 37% who voted think they know better.....


----------



## Elles

Britain can't end up like Greece, we have our own currency.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Britain can't end up like Greece, we have our own currency.


:Hilarious That's true :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Britain can't end up like Greece, we have our own currency.


 Thank goodness!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> So if you was a Brexit supporter and voted for Brexit who would you trust to do the negotiations?


Things were messed up when a plan didn't exist covering what was needed and likely to be acceptable before handing in article 50. Even now it's a case of scrambling to throw things together.

Negotiations, I would have left it in the hands of Farage, Gove and Boris. Let them "sort it out" so the country blames the right people.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Britain can't end up like Greece, we have our own currency.


What has having your own currency got to do with it? As it is there's little difference between the Euro and UK currency rates with every chance the Euro might overtake the £ in the months to come.

Experts have predicted Brexit MIGHT be detrimental to the economy so who's to know when isolated from Europe it won't meet the same fate having lost all trade deals with Europe? The rich won't notice or care of course as in Greece.

A trade deal with Australia in place of France etc. will not be cheap!

I believe the UK should have joined the Euro years ago. At the present time I would be content with the single market, customs union and freedom of movement.

Even I'm open to compromise where most Brexiteers aren't.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> What has having your own currency got to do with it?


Enough said. If you don't understand that you don't understand how the euro currency works.

As I said before, it appears the remainers didn't know what voting leave meant.


----------



## Elles

Currency manipulation to help the economy. More or less money printed, interest rates manipulated. Greece couldn't, they had to go with whatever the Eu decided with the Euro and borrow money with conditions from the Eu. Of course that wasn't all of Greece's problems, corruption also had a role to play, and there were other factors in their particular situation, but we can't mirror Greece.


----------



## stockwellcat.

TM is to give a major speech on Brexit which is due on the 21st September 2017. The negotiations have been delayed by one week on the agreement from UK negotiators and the EU. :Bored

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-41246573


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> like what ? croissants ?


I like croissants filled with chocolate/chocolat/Schokolade. See how European and multilingual I am?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Calvine said:


> I like croissants filled with chocolate/chocolat/Schokolade. See how European and multilingual I am?


What's a Croissant? Sound like some foreign muck to me.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Calvine said:


> I like croissants filled with chocolate/chocolat/Schokolade. See how European and multilingual I am?


oooh monsieur! Your Europeaness has set my heart aflutter


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> I like croissants filled with chocolate/chocolat/Schokolade. See how European and multilingual I am?


I'll stick with jam on toast or marmite on toast with a cup of English tea for breakfast and tiffin at 11am


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat. said:


> I'll stick with jam on toast or marmite on toast with a cup of English tea for breakfast and tiffin at 11am


Sorry, not at all sexy


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> I like croissants filled with chocolate/chocolat/Schokolade. See how European and multilingual I am?


Croissants and Nutella yummy or toast with lots of butter either does me just fine.


----------



## kimthecat

I guess I,ll have to stop wearing a beret and trench coat .


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/everything-were-told-brexit-turned-13591131

This is absolutely brilliant.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> TM is to give a major speech on Brexit which is due on the 21st September 2017. The negotiations have been delayed by one week on the agreement from UK negotiators and the EU. :Bored
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-41246573


I can just hear it, will they be anything new said?' I doubt that very much.


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> Sound like some foreign muck to me.


Proper Europeans (not us then) have been seen to dip them in their coffee. Merde alors!


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I like croissants filled with chocolate/chocolat/Schokolade. See how European and multilingual I am?


VW cars are sold in the US but doesn't make them remotely European!


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Whilst we're on the subject of cars @KittenKong ...

This.
_"If you work in the Vauxhall Factory in Ellesmere Port or Luton and 
the Hard Brexiters get their way you are likely to lose your job."









_


----------



## noushka05

And from the Australian High Commissioner to the UK - https://www.ft.com/content/30d68852-8e5b-11e7-9580-c651950d3672








nd


----------



## noushka05

Illuminating letter in the Financial Times on what leaving the single market means for a UK exporter.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Illuminating letter in the Financial Times on what leaving the single market means for a UK exporter.
> 
> View attachment 324871


This mornings barrage of negativity


----------



## Bisbow

stockwellcat. said:


> This mornings barrage of negativity


Just as well we take what they say with a pinch of salt or we would all end up in the lunatic asylum

At least I can start the day with a rueful grin knowing all is well with the remainers


----------



## stockwellcat.

Bisbow said:


> Just as well we take what they say with a pinch of salt or we would all end up in the lunatic asylum
> 
> At least I can start the day with a rueful grin knowing all is well with the remainers


It does make me wonder how the people that didn't vote to join the EC felt immediately after the referendum to join the EC because the Government at the time and succeeding Governments chose to ignore them for 44 years. I wouldn't know if there was protests on the streets etc. It was a different time back then I know but it would be interesting to find out.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> It does make me wonder how the people that didn't vote to join the EC felt immediately after the referendum to join the EC because the Government at the time and succeeding Governments chose to ignore them for 44 years. I wouldn't know if there was protests on the streets etc. It was a different time back then I know but it would be interesting to find out.


Maybe it was because the facts and reality showed joining was actually a good thing unlike leaving. For 44 years the EU has been a positive for the UK and the governments know that. It's internal tory politics which have led us to this point. You still haven't for example shown realistic benefits to leaving. Benefits to joining were real.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> This mornings barrage of negativity





Bisbow said:


> Just as well we take what they say with a pinch of salt or we would all end up in the lunatic asylum
> 
> At least I can start the day with a rueful grin knowing all is well with the remainers


Well quite easy solution.. show how they are wrong. Why you could also include positive reasons for brexit... wait, you can't other than soundbites such as "take back control", 350million we can spend on the NHS etc etc. Why not list the advantages of the WTO option and how it is far superior.


----------



## samuelsmiles

samuelsmiles said:


> No, what is a great shame is the fact that neither offers a balanced news service. The Guardian did not publish the story about solar panels being fitted to social housing because it did not suit their narrative.


Haha. The Guardian has now printed this story - just a couple of weeks later than everyone else. I did mention the fact that it hadn't been reported in a Guardian comments page yesterday morning. Maybe they just missed it. 

*UK cities expected to get millions of pounds for green energy projects *


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You still haven't for example shown realistic benefits to leaving.


 Like a scratched record asking the same thing again and again. I am not answering this because @Elles will accuse me of going around in circles. I already answered this question somewhere on here and you rejected my answer.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Well quite easy solution.. show how they are wrong. Why you could also include positive reasons for brexit... wait, you can't other than soundbites such as "take back control", 350million we can spend on the NHS etc etc. Why not list the advantages of the WTO option and how it is far superior.


There you go again on your merry go round :Yawn


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> Like a scratched record asking the same thing again and again. I am not answering this because @Elles will accuse me of going around in circles. I already answered this question sonewhere on here and you rejected my answer.


 Not guilty m'lud, I was just replying to someone else who said it about the Remainers.

I've answered too and my answers too were rejected.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Not guilty m'lud, I was just replying to someone else who said it about the Remainers.


I was only joking :Hilarious


> I've answered too and my answers too were rejected.


The answers are out there but the remainers choose to ignore them :Banghead


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Like a scratched record asking the same thing again and again. I am not answering this because @Elles will accuse me of going around in circles. I already answered this question somewhere on here and you rejected my answer.


Please point out where so I can point out the errors in your reasoning again. Maybe it's was the unicorns.. The benefits of leaving have been shown to be false or at best are wishful thinking.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Please point out where so I can point out the errors in your reasoning again.


*No!*


----------



## kimthecat

That's right . Blame the unicorns  The unicorns are innocent !


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Why not list the advantages of the WTO option and how it is far superior.


Easy one that. The WTO allows us to trade with the rest of the world whilst the U.K. negotiates it's own deals without having to appease twenty seven other countries. End result being speedier negotiations and deals that benefit the U.K.

It's all looking good.

Right, that's my daily one post on the subject used.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> *No!*


As I thought. Maybe it's the bit about Australia forgetting the EU already has a deal in place which we leave when we leave the EU. Maybe it's the WTO option you raved about although when you look into that it shows it's not quite the benefit you made it out to be.



Dr Pepper said:


> Easy one that. The WTO allows us to trade with the rest of the world whilst the U.K. negotiates it's own deals without having to appease twenty seven other countries. End result being speedier negotiations and deals that benefit the U.K.


Ah here we come again. Maybe you should look at what the WTO rules mean for businesses. Tell me, how much input does the UK have on WTO rules? Oh I know some leavers keep on about how it's a good thing. Have you even looked at the implications? There's a reason David Davis is pushing for trade with the EU rather than pushing the WTO option. Once again.. this from leavers..

http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

How about:





So remind me again.. who is going to do the negotiations. Maybe you like ignoring the fact that negotiators have basically said UK will not get good deals when compared with the EU. Simply way it works.. market possibilities. 450million vs 65million. 450 million get to set terms, 65million does not. That's ignoring the fact we do not have the capacity to negotiate with those we lose trade deals to outside the EU when we leave.

On the positive side, you don't have to let facts bother you.


----------



## MiffyMoo

More from the Aus High Commissioner


----------



## Elles

There are opportunities outside the Eu that aren't available inside it. It is easier for a people to lobby one country than to get 28 to agree. As soon as the Eu started to interfere negatively with moral and ethical issues and 28 countries had to agree for anything to be done and even then there are vetos in place on some issues, anything moral, ethical, or environmental would become an uphill battle as the Eu protected its own interests. I already posted occasions where the Eu overruled MEPs.

Outside of the Eu we can put pressure on our own government, elect our own representatives and lobby on the things that are important to us. Then it's down to our government. They don't have to take it to the Eu and try to persuade representatives from every other country in Europe. 

If we are successful, people of the Eu member countries may ask why they can't have the same.

It's a long shot, it depends on our own government, but we could make the uk a better place, not a worse one. In the Eu we mostly have to do as we're told and the uk is one of the less likely to be on the winning side of any votes. The Eu isn't just about shutting countries out of easy and lucrative trades and keeping them to themselves to benefit the Eu. It's about gradually transferring power to a Central European government. When people already complain about central government not understanding local issues, how well will the Eu do on it.

Of course things could get worse outside of the Eu, especially for those who have to adapt, but it's not the end of the world. That's being brought about by means other than our leaving the Eu.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> There are opportunities outside the Eu that aren't available inside it. It is easier for a people to lobby one country than to get 28 to agree.


You are right, it is much easier for big business to get the government to do what they want. Interesting how much of the media is controlled by a few as well and how a few have pushed the anti EU agenda for years.

Rupert Murdoch was asked why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That's easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice'.

5 years for a general election where your vote may be meaningless if you live in a "safe seat". Yep you can really hold the government to account for their actions.


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> More from the Aus High Commissioner


More immigrants.. isn't brexit about controlling them not making life easier for them?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> More immigrants.. isn't brexit about controlling them not making life easier for them?


Ridiculous attempt by you there


----------



## Elles

Big business on the whole want to stay in the Eu and protect their interests. American influenced news sources may well want us to leave, but are they going to get what they wanted from it? Maybe not.

I don't think people will mind if the odd Australian wants to move here. I don't think there'll be a huge influx somehow.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Maybe it's the WTO option you raved about


 So you do remember. So you don't need to keep asking the same question over and over. The answers are out there from everyone who voted the way they did.

Its not my fault you ignore what people tell you and some of the replies have been very good from @Dr Pepper, @Elles, @MiffyMoo etc


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Ridiculous attempt by you there


So having "free movement" (with it's limitations which UK governments never enforced) from the EU we have free movement from countries such as Australia, India and others we do trade deals with. You are right, that is ridiculous.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> So you do remember. So you don't need to keep asking the same question over and over. The answers are out there from everyone who voted the way they did.


Even though facts show that it will be a negative, not a positive. Great argument supporting leaving there stockwellcat.


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> That's right . Blame the unicorns  The unicorns are innocent !


Hate to burst your bubble.. Unicorns are fictional, like Santa Claus, the Krampus and benefits of leaving


----------



## Elles

Murdoch denies ever saying it. I don't doubt for one minute that he uses his papers to try to influence the uk though. The Eu have given him permission to buy out Sky tv, I believe the uk are still trying to fight him on it, though will lose. His papers don't tend to go overboard on issues that concern me, or local people, like live transport, or fracking. He's more likely to try to undermine a government he doesn't like than attack lobbyists on individual issues. He's an old man, we're heading for a new era.

We aren't getting free movement from anywhere so far as I know. People will probably object to free movement from India, but probably not from Australia, or Canada. Not many Brits want to live in India, so it wouldn't be a fair trade.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> We aren't getting free movement from anywhere so far as I know. People will probably object to free movement from India, but probably not from Australia, or Canada. Not many Brits want to live in India, so it wouldn't be a fair trade.


We didn't have to have what people call free movement from the EU either. Who says trade deals are fair? India.. population (market) of 1.3billion, UK 65 million. Who will dictate terms?


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Maybe it was because the facts and reality showed joining was actually a good thing unlike leaving. For 44 years the EU has been a positive for the UK and the governments know that. It's internal tory politics which have led us to this point. You still haven't for example shown realistic benefits to leaving. Benefits to joining were real.


No leave supporter has asked why it took so long for the UK to join the Common Market. It took them well over 10 years seeing that President Charles De Gaulle vetoed the UK joining.

The UK wouldn't have been keen to join had they been no benefits to doing so.

It could be argued the people weren't asked. I'm sure the vote to join would have been unanimous as the popular press were very keen on the idea.

The 1975 referendum proved that.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Haha. The Guardian has now printed this story - just a couple of weeks later than everyone else. I did mention the fact that it hadn't been reported in a Guardian comments page yesterday morning. Maybe they just missed it.
> 
> *UK cities expected to get millions of pounds for green energy projects *


Welcome to Trumpton UK.

It couldn't possibly be that the Guardians environment team have been covering a multitude of FAR more serious climate related stories just lately, could it?

What other media outlet can compare?? The Guardian are outstanding - as ever.

/


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> This mornings barrage of negativity


Indeed it is; there's a plethora of pessimism in this thread which seldom appears on the other threads.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> More from the Aus High Commissioner
> 
> View attachment 324879


And if theres a hard brexit???


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Indeed it is; there's a plethora of pessimism in this thread which seldom appears on the other threads.


Its called evaluating the evidence. If you were capable of looking objectively, you wouldn't find any positives either.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> If you were capable of looking objectively


Thank you for the patronising sarcasm; much appreciated.


----------



## Elles

There are potentially benefits of leaving and not just to the uk, or to the economy. Whether people agree that the opportunities will be taken is a different matter.

I love Europe and have spent many hours travelling around it. Can't stand the Eu.

I was in Exeter city centre last week. A group of 'none white British' jazz musicians, were playing modern music with an old time jazz twist and people from all over first stopped to listen and were then dancing, clapping and laughing, taking pics with their phones and generally having a good time. That's what life should be about. Not all this anti crap and misery and the 'what's in it for me' propagated by big business and institutions like the power grabbing Eu.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Thank you for the patronising sarcasm; much appreciated.


Can you name one tangible benefit though Calvine?

I might be a remoaner but this just cracked me up:Hilarious

_When Brexit is a disaster yet people still claim that everything is going great._


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Hate to burst your bubble.. Unicorns are fictional, like Santa Claus, the Krampus and benefits of leaving


 Noooo, You're lying !

I don't think it will be as good as some people hoped nor as bad as some people feared .

I wish Cam had never started this , not because I fear leaving the Eu but for the lack of planning and the aggro it has caused.
I suppose it was naive of me to think that the Government had well- thought out plans to avoid chaos but instead ,as we found out ,they had no idea what they would do.


----------



## Elles

You should have a little faith in people like yourself Noushka. Organic, free range, cctv in abattoirs and the like didn't come about, because of the Eu, or anything else. They come about because of conscience pricking lobbyists like yourself.

I'm just being proved right. The Eu is not the way forward, but it was the wrong time with the wrong government. The right choice, but for some for the wrong reasons. Its not over yet though. It's still early stages in the negotiations and I believe it will still be for the best long term. Short term hasn't been proved anything like as bad as even some leavers thought it may be. Let's not despair just yet peeps.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Here's a thing, I see Mr Juncker is saying how the EU will become even tighter knit after Brexit.

Well guess what Mr Juncker, that's exactly why we voted to leave. Bullet dodged and Brexit now more than ever justified.

Edit
This is my post for tomorrow being used early.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> * It's still early stages in the negotiations*


That's laugh, it's watching our government playing pin the tail on the donkey.:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws said:


> That's laugh, it's watching our government playing pin the tail on the donkey.:Hilarious


Well the Eu is an ass.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Well the Eu is an ass.


NO, the government are running around with their eyes shut with no idea of where they are going.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Welcome to Trumpton UK.
> 
> It couldn't possibly be that the Guardians environment team have been covering a multitude of FAR more serious climate related stories just lately, could it?
> 
> What other media outlet can compare?? *The Guardian are outstanding - as ever. *
> 
> /


If not a little tardy with news items that don't fit their narrative.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> if theres a hard brexit???


That's probably what TM's major speech about Brexit is about next week on the 21st September 2017.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> You should have a little faith in people like yourself Noushka. Organic, free range, cctv in abattoirs and the like didn't come about, because of the Eu, or anything else. They come about because of conscience pricking lobbyists like yourself.
> 
> I'm just being proved right. The Eu is not the way forward, but it was the wrong time with the wrong government. The right choice, but for some for the wrong reasons. Its not over yet though. It's still early stages in the negotiations and I believe it will still be for the best long term. Short term hasn't been proved anything like as bad as even some leavers thought it may be. Let's not despair just yet peeps.


This is a hard right power grab Elles. The tories were already weakening our democracy by cracking down on peaceful protesters, gagging NGOs which campaign for social & environmental justice, spying environmentalists. The EU actually gave us some protection from our own government. We're really screwed now.

To quote Alistair Carmichael

_
"This is a sinister power grab by an increasingly authoritarian prime minister. The Tories didn't win a majority at the election but are now hijacking parliament to try and impose their extreme Brexit on the country. It is a bitter irony that Brexiteers who spent their careers championing parliamentary sovereignty have now chosen to sell it down the river"_



samuelsmiles said:


> If not a little tardy with news items that don't fit their narrative.


Its clearly your narrative it doesn't fit :Hilarious Its blatantly obvious you only want to hear positive news about the government, you hate it when they are held to account. Trump supporters are just the same lol. Unlike the hate mongering right wing rags which pass off opinion as news, the Guardian clearly labels its opinion pieces as 'opinion'. Damian Carrington at the Guardian & the rest of the environment team report _news_ about environmental issues - and they are bloody good at it.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> That's probably what TM's major speech about Brexit is about next week on the 21st September 2017.


I think so too SWC. Have you seen this series of tweets by The Leave Alliance? Terrifying if accurate. We'll soon find out

1. Our intel is that May is going to announce in her speech that she's to give formal notice to leave the EEA.

2. And, in an attempt to by-pass the Commission, extend an invitation to all the EEA members to enter into direct talks with the UK

3. This would be to create a new EEA Agreement, under a different name, without the four freedoms ... just trading rules.

4. She's not going to walk away, but it will be a take it or leave it offer. Either take it or we walk

5. It would appear they are going with the Legatum template. https://lif.blob.core.windows.net/lif/docs/default-source/publications/briefing-cost-of-eea-membership-for-uk-legatum-institute-special-trade-commission-november-2016-pdf.pdf?sfvrsn=4…

6. The idea that existing EEA members will seek to weaken their agreement is delusional. Close to insane.



7. If this is the UK proposal then May will end up with egg n her face and we'll be back to square one - or walking away with nothing.

8. Government clearly misses the point that any deal must be substantially more than just trade


9. The EU is not about to unpick the entire EEA agreement for the sole benefit of the UK. What is May smoking?


10. EEA agreement is configurable for the UK but anything beyond that is howling mad.

11. More to the point, the EU could not be any clearer that no talks on trade etc will happen until divorce terms agreed

12. This smells like an attempt to circumvent the entire process. A refusal to engage. It will not succeed


13. Some further thoughts on this...

1. Whatever the May speech does contain we know it is going to be a major and unexpected intervention

2. Why would the EU delay the talks if it was just a minor Maybot speech? They know something big is going down & have cleared the decks

3. Downing Street said the decision had been reached in order to afford negotiators the "flexibility to make progress" when talks resume

4. If May isn't going to make any concessions on the 3 core issues (and knows it), what does she have planned? Nothing on the schedule

5. We have seen nothing of substance on the financial settlement and nothing worth speaking of on Northern Ireland either.


6. There is every reason to expect something major and something outside of the agreed sequence. This is calculated.

7. It certainly fits with the behaviour we have seen thus far, refusing to engage in the process and creating decoys

8. We also know that May is not in command. She will go along with whatever she is spoon-fed.


9. In this, half the cabinet are in thrall to Legatum Institute and they have near exclusive access. And they're insane.
10. Falconer has already called to leave the EEA so we can have that "bonfire of regulations". Tories want this first and foremost.
11. Legatum is pretty much calling the shots on this. The cabinet have outsourced all of their Brexit "thinking".

12. May will be doing no strategic thinking of her own. She doesn't even understand the basic components of the EU - or Brexit dynamics

13. This is a lady who does not do detail and does not take concepts on board. She's trapped and she is a puppet. Totally helpless.

14. So is it plausible that she would announce something completely dangerous and unhinged? Oh hells yes!


15. She wouldn't even know what she was looking at let alone understand the risks. She is not calling the shots.

16. Even her Lancaster House speech was dictated to her - and that was counter to her previous rhetoric.

17. Moreover, what we have heard today seems consistent with the combative and suspicious attitude we have seen from Davis and Co.

18. Rather than engage in good faith, a hostile act seems more plausible than a general announcement. This does not smell good at all.


----------



## samuelsmiles

_Its clearly your narrative it doesn't fit :Hilarious Its blatantly obvious you only want to hear positive news about the government, you hate it when they are held to account. Trump supporters are just the same lol. Unlike the hate mongering right wing rags which pass off opinion as news, the Guardian clearly labels its opinion pieces as 'opinion'. Damian Carrington at the Guardian & the rest of the environment team report news about environmental issues - and they are bloody good at it.[/QUOTE]
_

I genuinely don't have a political bias. Well, if I do, I'm more left than right actually and, given the choice, I'll read the Guardian as opposed to the Mail. Although once the Guardian has reported a story I tend to Google other sources for a less political leaning.

There's no denying, though, that the Guardian has drifted so far left that it is affecting its output to its detriment. I think I've said it before but, if the left and the Guardian (Monbiot et al) keep up their aggressive, shouty anti conservative tone, they'll change nothing very fast. It just gets right up peoples noses.


----------



## 1290423

Im more concerned to learn of the increase in homelessness then anything to do with the EU if i'm honest.
Suppose some could look on it on the bright side I guess that if everything is going to be as bad as some are saying then everyone will be queueing to leave the UK , us included. Then at least there should be enough houses to go around.

Sorry, but cant take this serious anymore,  as heard nothing but how bad its going to get since the day the out vote was returned.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I think so too SWC. Have you seen this series of tweets by The Leave Alliance? Terrifying if accurate. We'll soon find out
> 
> 1. Our intel is that May is going to announce in her speech that she's to give formal notice to leave the EEA.
> 
> 2. And, in an attempt to by-pass the Commission, extend an invitation to all the EEA members to enter into direct talks with the UK
> 
> 3. This would be to create a new EEA Agreement, under a different name, without the four freedoms ... just trading rules.
> 
> 4. She's not going to walk away, but it will be a take it or leave it offer. Either take it or we walk
> 
> 5. It would appear they are going with the Legatum template. https://lif.blob.core.windows.net/lif/docs/default-source/publications/briefing-cost-of-eea-membership-for-uk-legatum-institute-special-trade-commission-november-2016-pdf.pdf?sfvrsn=4…
> 
> 6. The idea that existing EEA members will seek to weaken their agreement is delusional. Close to insane.
> 
> 7. If this is the UK proposal then May will end up with egg n her face and we'll be back to square one - or walking away with nothing.
> 
> 8. Government clearly misses the point that any deal must be substantially more than just trade
> 
> 
> 9. The EU is not about to unpick the entire EEA agreement for the sole benefit of the UK. What is May smoking?
> 
> 10. EEA agreement is configurable for the UK but anything beyond that is howling mad.
> 
> 11. More to the point, the EU could not be any clearer that no talks on trade etc will happen until divorce terms agreed
> 
> 12. This smells like an attempt to circumvent the entire process. A refusal to engage. It will not succeed
> 
> 
> 13. Some further thoughts on this...
> 
> 1. Whatever the May speech does contain we know it is going to be a major and unexpected intervention
> 
> 2. Why would the EU delay the talks if it was just a minor Maybot speech? They know something big is going down & have cleared the decks
> 
> 3. Downing Street said the decision had been reached in order to afford negotiators the "flexibility to make progress" when talks resume
> 
> 4. If May isn't going to make any concessions on the 3 core issues (and knows it), what does she have planned? Nothing on the schedule
> 
> 5. We have seen nothing of substance on the financial settlement and nothing worth speaking of on Northern Ireland either.
> 
> 
> 6. There is every reason to expect something major and something outside of the agreed sequence. This is calculated.
> 7. It certainly fits with the behaviour we have seen thus far, refusing to engage in the process and creating decoys
> 
> 8. We also know that May is not in command. She will go along with whatever she is spoon-fed.
> 
> 
> 9. In this, half the cabinet are in thrall to Legatum Institute and they have near exclusive access. And they're insane.
> 10. Falconer has already called to leave the EEA so we can have that "bonfire of regulations". Tories want this first and foremost.
> 11. Legatum is pretty much calling the shots on this. The cabinet have outsourced all of their Brexit "thinking".
> 
> 12. May will be doing no strategic thinking of her own. She doesn't even understand the basic components of the EU - or Brexit dynamics
> 
> 13. This is a lady who does not do detail and does not take concepts on board. She's trapped and she is a puppet. Totally helpless.
> 
> 14. So is it plausible that she would announce something completely dangerous and unhinged? Oh hells yes!
> 
> 
> 15. She wouldn't even know what she was looking at let alone understand the risks. She is not calling the shots.
> 16. Even her Lancaster House speech was dictated to her - and that was counter to her previous rhetoric.
> 
> 17. Moreover, what we have heard today seems consistent with the combative and suspicious attitude we have seen from Davis and Co.
> 
> 18. Rather than engage in good faith, a hostile act seems more plausible than a general announcement. This does not smell good at all.


Well when it was announced yesterday the negotiations had been suspended for one week and then it was announced TM was going to make a major speech on Brexit I put two and two together. I thought to myself she might be announcing a hard brexit to bye pass the EU negotiations and take the UK out of the EU. What's stopping them doing this? The conservatives have the majority in the Committee now as from today after last nights vote in Parliament. So prepare ourselves fellow leavers we might be out of the EU on the 22nd September.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Sorry, but cant take this serious anymore,  as heard nothing but how bad its going to get since the day the out vote was returned.


I agree with you @DT.


----------



## Elles

If the government didn't give a damn and no one had any influence, there wouldn't have been a referendum. The referendum did not go the way the government wanted. This is not Russia.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> _I
> _
> I genuinely don't have a political bias. Well, if I do, I'm more left than right actually and, given the choice, I'll read the Guardian as opposed to the Mail. Although once the Guardian has reported a story I tend to Google other sources for a less political leaning.
> 
> There's no denying, though, that the Guardian has drifted so far left that it is affecting its output to its detriment. I think I've said it before but, if the left and the Guardian (Monbiot et al) keep up their aggressive, shouty anti conservative tone, they'll change nothing very fast. It just gets right up peoples noses.


[/QUOTE]

Oh so you're really a closet lefty , well I'm really more right wing than left then

What are your thoughts on the tories repeal bill, do you think our environment is safer hands now? Do you not fear we've gifted our hard fought democracy to the tories?. Have you taken an objective look at the bill? As someone on the left how do you feel about this right wing power grab? I don't recall you condemning the govt for anything tbqh.

You do realise George Monbiot doesn't write 'news' articles but 'opinion' pieces for the Guardian?
He bases his beliefs on the evidence, not some feeble decision about what set of views he finds preferable. Isn't that what we should all be doing?

Naturally hes on the left - the green movement is on the left. He is anti neoliberalism so naturally he opposes all the conservatives stand for. Likewise he hes been scathing of new labour for adopting this destructive ideology (& the EU) & has written plenty of articles on the subject. Doing all he possibly can to save our living planet is his priority - so he certainly doesn't get up my nose, I am grateful he's doing so much to expose those who are destroying our beautiful planet for greed. If he gets up your nose more than the tories do, well, that speaks volumes doesn't it.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> If the government didn't give a damn and no one had any influence, there wouldn't have been a referendum. The referendum did not go the way the government wanted. This is not Russia.


Well there is evidence to suggest otherwise Elles. Russia interfered in the USA too.


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Im more concerned to learn of the increase in homelessness then anything to do with the EU if i'm honest.
> Suppose some could look on it on the bright side I guess that if everything is going to be as bad as some are saying then everyone will be queueing to leave the UK , us included. Then at least there should be enough houses to go around.
> 
> Sorry, but cant take this serious anymore,  as heard nothing but how bad its going to get since the day the out vote was returned.


The tories are to blame for the crisis, how much worse are things likely to get if they drag us out of the EU?

*'Welfare reforms fuel rise in homelessness' says National Audit Office*

http://news.sky.com/story/welfare-r...melessness-says-national-audit-office-1103324*8*


----------



## Honeys mum

DT said:


> Sorry, but cant take this serious anymore,  as heard nothing but how bad its going to get since the day the out vote was returned.





stockwellcat. said:


> I agree with you @DT.


I'm another one who feels the same.


----------



## Bisbow

Honeys mum said:


> I'm another one who feels the same.


Me to.
It is not that they can't see the benefits, they WON'T see anything that is good, they say we have been brainwashed but it is them that have, not us


----------



## Jesthar

Bisbow said:


> Me to.
> It is not that they can't see the benefits, they WON'T see anything that is good, they say we have been brainwashed but it is them that have, not us


Or perhaps what you see as a benefit will not be a benefit to them. Bit like a raise in interest rates being good for savers, bad for mortgage payers.

Personally, I have yet to hear of any potential benefit, particularly of a hard Brexit, that would have any bearing on me, but there are definitely benefits of being in the EU that the removal of will impact me negatively.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Me to.
> It is not that they can't see the benefits, they WON'T see anything that is good, they say we have been brainwashed but it is them that have, not us


Bisbow if things are going to be good, can I ask you why you think the government are hiding the 50 studies they did on the impact of brexit?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Bisbow said:


> Me to.
> It is not that they can't see the benefits, they WON'T see anything that is good, they say we have been brainwashed but it is them that have, not us


So much negativity has been spewed out about the decision that was made and the way people voted it comes to a point that people stop taking this thread seriously. Nothing is being achieved. I voted in June 2016 the way I was always going to vote and feel that (especially on here) those that voted remain *do not respect* *the outcome of the referendum *(even though they claim they do respect the outcome) or the way I voted. I to cannot take the ranting on and on, going around in circles, and all the negativity seriously anymore on here. There are lots of positive things to leaving the EU but feel sorry for those that cannot see this or accept these points and feel the need to be narrowly focused on everything.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> So much negativity has been spewed out about the decision that was made and the way people voted it comes to a point that people stop taking this thread seriously. Nothing is being achieved. I voted in June 2016 the way I was always going to vote and feel that (especially on here) those that voted remain *do not respect* *the outcome of the referendum *(even though they claim they do respect the outcome) or the way I voted. I to cannot take the ranting on and on, going around in circles, and all the negativity seriously anymore on here. There are lots of positive things to leaving the EU but feel sorry for those that cannot see this or accept these points and feel the need to be narrowly focused on everything.


You're the only one ranting lol

_"When the majority of serious academic opinion states that Brexit will be bad for Britain, it is not unpatriotic to be a Remoaner".
_
Quite

'Taking our country back'?...

_."the greatest shift in power from legislature to executive in modern British constitutional history"












_


----------



## Elles

I like the Eu and its powerful leaders less and less with each passing day. I'm pleased we're getting out before it's too late and they make leaving impossible.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You're the only one ranting lol
> 
> _"When the majority of serious academic opinion states that Brexit will be bad for Britain, it is not unpatriotic to be a Remoaner".
> _
> Quite
> 
> 'Taking our country back'?...
> 
> _."the greatest shift in power from legislature to executive in modern British constitutional history"
> 
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


You're one of those posting post after post of negativity


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I like the Eu and its powerful leaders less and less with each passing day. I'm pleased we're getting out before it's too late and they make leaving impossible.


I agree with you there.


----------



## samuelsmiles

Despite revealing my left leaning political tendencies, I think this is worthy of mention. 

*Gove says UK would block chlorinated chicken from US, even if that held up trade deal*
_Gove says a post-Brexit trade deal with the US would have to be ratified by the House of Commons. And the British people do not want to see animal welfare standards watered down, or labour standards watered down either.

If we cannot reach agreement on the US on these points, the deal will have to be limited in scope.

Q: So would the government actually hold up a US trade deal if it involved the UK having to accept chlorinated chicken?

Yes, says Gove, very directly._


----------



## kimthecat

@samuelsmiles That's sounds good but I don't trust that backstabber Gove .


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> So much negativity has been spewed out about the decision that was made and the way people voted it comes to a point that people stop taking this thread seriously. Nothing is being achieved. I voted in June 2016 the way I was always going to vote and feel that (especially on here) those that voted remain *do not respect* *the outcome of the referendum *(even though they claim they do respect the outcome) or the way I voted. I to cannot take the ranting on and on, going around in circles, and all the negativity seriously anymore on here. There are lots of positive things to leaving the EU but feel sorry for those that cannot see this or accept these points and feel the need to be narrowly focused on everything.


No I do NOT respect the referendum result in any way. For a start 37% is hardly a good turn out. Fair dos if it was 80%+ but even then the 52/48% outcome is hardly a significant majority.

My main reason for not respecting the result was the gross lies such as the £350m for the NHS as one of many examples not forgetting the scaremongering about Turkey about to join amongst many others.

If you purchased something from a shop that didn't do what it says, say a vaccum cleaner that didn't vaccum you'd take it back to the shop for a refund.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> No I do NOT respect the referendum result in any way. For a start 37% is hardly a good turn out. Fair dos if it was 80%+ but even then the 52/48% outcome is hardly a significant majority.


 I would have liked to have seen a bigger majority . 
Was the turnout as low as that out of all the registered voters , I thought the turnout was over 70%?


----------



## noushka05

At least one brexiter is facing reality.


1/ So the Treasury is supposedly planning for a no deal Brexit. As a Leaver, this is terrifying. The WTO option is, bluntly, suicide

2/ Several things happen when we leave eschewing negotiations with the EU. Firstly, we rely on GATT/WTO rules for facilitating trade

3/ This has a profound impact upon our tariff arrangements with the EU, which currently are non-existent

4/ Upon leaving the EU and becoming a 'third country', the EU is LEGALLY OBLIGED to impose on us the same tariffs it does other WTO members

5/ Note that when I say 'other WTO members' I refer to those with whom the EU does not have Free Trade Agreements

6/ At the heart of the WTO framework is a principle called Most Favoured Nation (MFN). It means members can't discriminate

7/ If they do onto one they must do uniformly. A tariff here for one country means a tariff here for every other country

8/ There are certain exemptions to this rule, such as if a member is a CU or has FTAs with members, and slightly different rules apply

9/ This is how the EU has been able to negotiate preferential tariff schedules over many years. It remains influential and powerful

10/ So, the EU applies to the UK new tariff schedules, which are inferior to those provided by membership. Prices at home are spiked

11/ If the U.K. decides to retaliate, then it would need to do so to all other WTO members, as per MFN equal treatment rules.

12/ This is why Patrick Minford says: 'let's go to unilateral free trade'. But this doesn't even begin to fix things.

13/ A good way to spot a fraud or an amateur in Brexit/trade debate is to look for those who talk about trade purely in terms of tariffs

14/ Tariffs are an issue, but a small one. The real economic minefield that lies behind the WTO door is a web of non-tariff barriers.

15/ Tariffs have indeed come down globally, but this drainage has exposed the magnitude of NTB issues we are left to deal with

16/ As an EU member the UK enjoys a harmonised system of regulation. The benefit of this is the removal of technical barriers to trade.

17/ Outside of the EU, conformity (or regulatory convergence) is not enough to smooth trade flow. We need to prove we conform to standards

18/ This is where customs cooperation comes in (which has nothing whatsoever to do with the Customs Union).

19/ Where there exists large amounts of trade between two trading partners (like EU+China), MRAs or equivalents built into FTAs are useful.

20/ MRAs are Mutual Recognition Agreements. MRAs promote trade facilitation by helping to assess conformity to standards.

21/ By eschewing EU negotiations, we will have to rely on WTO mechanisms, such as the TBT and SPS Agreements. This will be arduous.

22/ Unlike the EEA, these provisions aren't effective. No country trades with the EU solely using such terms. There is a reason for this

23/ There will be clashes at external borders, whereby UK/EU will not be able to assess whether standards have been complied with.

24/ This will cause chaos. We will see delays at shipping ports, lorry queues on motorways stretching miles, wasted/devalued cargo etc.

25/ This may sound minor, but take the perspective of an exporter, or even a consumer expecting a product, and you realise it isn't.

26/ NTBs are more important than tariffs because their externalities cause far more profound (and often unseen) economic problems.

27/ Goods will not reach their destinations. Some may make it but scraping their sell-by or use-by dates. In other words: pandemonium.

28/ This is just a brief picture I am painting. There is a lot I don't know. I am trying to learn in time to warn enough people against it.

29/ So when Nigel Farage speaks of the WTO option by comparing possible EU tariffs with our budgetary contributions, this is LAUGHABLE

30/ The problem extends far beyond tariffs, which will themselves be painful. The WTO option would be self-harm on an unimaginable scale


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> I would have liked to have seen a bigger majority .
> Was the turnout as low as that out of all the registered voters , I thought the turnout was over 70%?


Somebody has their maths backwards. It was 72.2% turnout

https://www.electoralcommission.org...u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No I do NOT respect the referendum result in any way. For a start 37% is hardly a good turn out. Fair dos if it was 80%+ but even then the 52/48% outcome is hardly a significant majority.
> 
> My main reason for not respecting the result was the gross lies such as the £350m for the NHS as one of many examples not forgetting the scaremongering about Turkey about to join amongst many others.
> 
> If you purchased something from a shop that didn't do what it says, say a vaccum cleaner that didn't vaccum you'd take it back to the shop for a refund.


You got your maths wrong. The turnout was one of the highest recorded. @MiffyMoo is correct it was 72.2%. If you want to argue otherwise I suggest you get your facts from the electoral commissions website for the EU referendum here first: https://www.electoralcommission.org...u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I voted in June 2016 the way I was always going to vote and feel that (especially on here) those that voted remain *do not respect* *the outcome of the referendum *(even though they claim they do respect the outcome) or the way I voted.


So non-binding referendum remember. You cannot provide solid reasoning for damaging the country. You ignore the evidence. Oh look the remainers ignore what.. soundbites not backed by reality.

Yes I respect the referendum. Useful in that it pointed out many areas which needed to be addressed by the government as referendums are supposed to do. Doesn't mean the government should have committed itself to damage the UK. Lots of areas could have been addressed without damaging the country. Simply telling the truth about the EU would have been a start.


----------



## noushka05

(not fact checked it)


----------



## Goblin

Gove is an interesting one at the moment. Have the feeling he knows where brexit is heading and is desparate to disassociate himself from it and "be remembered" as environment minister. Interesting to see what happens in terms of actions rather than words.


----------



## Elles

So despite being terrified whoever it is still voted Brexit. If he was going to be terrified if there's 'no deal' what did he vote leave for and who is it? Is it suicide or self harm? Honestly. 

Twitter is full of phrases that have no right to be associated with leaving the Eu.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You're one of those posting post after post of negativity


Its called facing reality. You should try it sometimes


----------



## Elles

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/brexit-regrets-yes-wish-id-voted-leave/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> *Yes I respect the referendum.*


No you don't.
Why? Because you keep going on and on how everyone was wrong to vote leave and ranting on about supposed facts from economists (who aren't a realiable sorce of facts) and the rhetoric from the remain campaign. No one is interested on the leave side. It ain't going to change anything. What the remainers want to do is have the referendum overturned by campaigning to have democracy overturned. Article 50 is now law in the UK unless you forgot, thanks to the help of Gina Miller. This makes the whole process lawful and binding. It was democratically voted for by every MP across the country and David Cameron himself (although he hot footed it into the sunset on the day of the results) said that whatever the result was he would honour so too right it should be honoured and acted upon.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Its called facing reality. You should try it sometimes


No its called one massive headache from the remainers who won't accept the result.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> So despite being terrified whoever it is still voted Brexit. If he was going to be terrified if there's 'no deal' what did he vote leave for and who is it? Is it suicide or self harm? Honestly.
> 
> Twitter is full of phrases that have no right to be associated with leaving the Eu.


The tweets were made by this chap  https://www.blogger.com/profile/03248946393312428514

I'm an MSc student of 'Elections, Campaigns and Democracy' at Royal Holloway, University of London. 
I am a Flexcit blogger and former hard Brexiteer who worked for Vote Leave (in communications) during Britain's EU referendum.
I am a journalism graduate and former civil servant.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> No its called one massive headache from the remainers who won't accept the result.


You mean it's those who believe in democracy which doesn't consist of agreeing with a single vote but is a continual process. People who believe in the ability to use facts as discussion points. Can see why the last gives many leavers a headache.


----------



## Elles

I see, student, graduate, former civil servant. Still wants Brexit, but for some reason is concerned about businesses and trade free of tariffs. Copy pasted a few exaggerated statements from others. A young Brexiter who wanted trade without any of the conditions the Eu apply and thought we'd get it. Now he thinks we won't, he's panicking. Apparently.

Negotiation is like haggling. You don't put all your cards on the table and agree to the first price discussed. You gradually meet somewhere in the middle with something acceptable to both sides. If people are going to roll over at the first hurdle, they shouldn't have entered the race. Thankfully young cards like him aren't at the negotiating table.

If the uk end up with no deal, hey ho. There's more to life (and trade) than trade tariffs.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Microsoft billionaire Bill Gates now admits Britain's science and tech firms will BOOM after Brexit - if we continue to attract best talent 
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ce-and-tech-firms-will-boom-after-brexit/amp/

*Jean-Claude Juncker's EU expansion plans make a powerful case for Brexit*
*https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/...ff-out-of-jean-claude-junckers-eu-superstate/*


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Microsoft billionaire Bill Gates now admits Britain's science and tech firms will BOOM after Brexit - if we continue to attract best talent


Oh dear.. continue to attract the best talent when we are already losing talent and funding. Great one MiffyMoo.


----------



## Elles

We haven't left yet. We don't know where funding will go once we leave. It can be more specific to the uk than it has been inside the Eu.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Oh dear.. continue to attract the best talent when we are already losing talent and funding. Great one MiffyMoo.


Are we really? Not all talent comes from the EU.


----------



## Elles

MiffyMoo said:


> *Jean-Claude Juncker's EU expansion plans make a powerful case for Brexit*
> *https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/...ff-out-of-jean-claude-junckers-eu-superstate/*


My interpretation of his speech too and why I now think we're better leaving now, before they make it impossible to leave. More and more power in the hands of a select few. Never works.


----------



## samuelsmiles

kimthecat said:


> @samuelsmiles That's sounds good but I don't trust that backstabber Gove .


We will know very soon - as we will Boris Johnson's promise to ban all ivory trading. Thankfully we don't have a fascist government so we still have the means to vote them out if not satisfied with their actions at the next general election.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Hmmm this is interesting. Philip Hammond is hinting the UK maybe preparing to crash out of the EU:

*Brexit: Ports could plunge into chaos if UK crashes out of EU without deal, Philip Hammond admits*

His frank words comes as it emerged the next round of Brexit talks will be delayed, so that they happen after a major speech on withdrawal expected from Theresa May.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-uk-ports-chaos-no-deal-warning-hammond-a7943671.html?amp

That's the way I have seen this, sorry if you have a different interpretation.


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Are we really? Not all talent comes from the EU.


Maybe you should review the videos provided in this thread recently where this was a topic. An actual scientist rather than The Sun newspaper.


----------



## Elles

Hmmm. No I'd view it that he's warning us that it's the end of the world as we know it if we leave without a deal, so that when May tells us the concessions she's going to make to the Eu, we don't mind too much. The delay is so that our government can work out how best to concede to the Eu without egg on their face. That's why the Eu were happy to wait and are saying that the uk will regret leaving.

Far from hinting we'll crash out, he's telling us that we won't. 

We'll see.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Hmmm. No I'd view it that he's warning us that it's the end of the world as we know it if we leave without a deal, so that when May tells us the concessions she's going to make to the Eu, we don't mind too much. The delay is so that our government can work out how best to concede to the Eu without egg on their face. That's why the Eu were happy to wait and are saying that the uk will regret leaving.
> 
> Far from hinting we'll crash out, *he's telling us that we won't*.
> 
> We'll see.


No offence. He's not in charge is he. Plus he said this after it was revealed TM is making a major speech on the UK's withdrawal next week.

Who knows. Just wish they would stop delaying things and get on with it as time is running out. Yes I am a little impatient. Just a little.


----------



## Elles

Nope, he ain't in charge. He might know what TM is up to though. Could go either way, but surely it's got to mean something drastic. Can't wait to hear what.


----------



## Elles

There is one good thing. It's a lot more interesting than if we'd gone for the boring Remain vote. :Bag


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> There is one good thing. It's a lot more interesting than if we'd gone for the boring Remain vote. :Bag


True.
Seems more dramatic than a TV soap at the moment. Now everyone is left in suspense wondering what is going to happen until the speech next week


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Maybe you should review the videos provided in this thread recently where this was a topic. An actual scientist rather than The Sun newspaper.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...talent-amid-mutiny-75-tell-brussels-dont/amp/

This lot seem pretty confident as well









I'm also quite willing to believe Bill Gates on this subject


----------



## samuelsmiles

Elles said:


> There is one good thing. It's a lot more interesting than if we'd gone for the boring Remain vote. :Bag


Haha. Yes, I have to admit, I was still undecided on my walk to the polling station, but then thought to myself "sod it, everyone's always moaning about everything - let's shake things up a bit and vote leave." So I did. And now everyone is moaning even more.


----------



## kimthecat

MiffyMoo said:


> Somebody has their maths backwards. It was 72.2% turnout
> 
> https://www.electoralcommission.org...u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information


 I thought so . That's easily done though , I think KK typed that in a hurry .


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...talent-amid-mutiny-75-tell-brussels-dont/amp/


So.. behind closed doors.. is said by Tory MP's.. Are these the same ones who said they need us more than we need them.



> This lot seem pretty confident as well
> View attachment 324917


Wow.. so many followers of scientists for britain.
Let's have a comparison as that provides a better picture of the science area.. 4Britain: 4815 followers, 4EU 78000 followers.



> I'm also quite willing to believe Bill Gates on this subject


Ignoring his actual proviso which is the main point.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> So.. behind closed doors.. is said by Tory MP's.. Are these the same ones who said they need us more than we need them.
> 
> Wow.. so many followers of scientists for britain.
> Let's have a comparison as that provides a better picture of the science area.. 4Britain: 4815 followers, 4EU 78000 followers.
> 
> Ignoring his actual proviso which is the main point.


Look, you've proven time and again that you will look at the best news and rip it apart, so I think I may leave you to your misery.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You got your maths wrong. The turnout was one of the highest recorded. @MiffyMoo is correct it was 72.2%. If you want to argue otherwise I suggest you get your facts from the electoral commissions website for the EU referendum here first: https://www.electoralcommission.org...u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information


Questionable, the turn out may have been higher in some areas. Nevertheless key groups who should have been allowed to vote were not able to despite government's pledge, still not met, to allow ex pats the vote if they've lived abroad for over 15 years.

You might not agree, nor like that but it was a pledge by the Cameron government.

I think hardened Brexiteers are frightened people are slowly waking up to reality that they were lied to. The majority of people who voted leave were taken in by the lies. Very few voted to make themselves poorer.

You mention negatively. Certainly no positives. You can't even mention anything positive or beneficial to leaving yourself.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No its called one massive headache from the remainers who won't accept the result.


.....and do despicable things like daring to wave the EU flag at the proms here in Great Britain which so upset NF!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Hmmm this is interesting. Philip Hammond is hinting the UK maybe preparing to crash out of the EU:
> 
> *Brexit: Ports could plunge into chaos if UK crashes out of EU without deal, Philip Hammond admits*
> 
> His frank words comes as it emerged the next round of Brexit talks will be delayed, so that they happen after a major speech on withdrawal expected from Theresa May.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-uk-ports-chaos-no-deal-warning-hammond-a7943671.html?amp
> 
> That's the way I have seen this, sorry if you have a different interpretation.


And you accuse us of spouting negativity unless you consider that a positive.

I don't think even May would be stupid enough to unilaterally drag the UK out of the EU abruptly like this.

More likely she'll copy Labour's idea of a gradual withdrawal (remember many in big business back the Tories but are against a hard Brexit), or whinge at the EU's refusal to succumb to the UK's unreasonable demands thus the UK will crash out of the EU with no deal in March 2019.

From past experience I think it could be the latter. Expect to hear the soundbite again, "No deal is better than a bad deal".


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> *.*


Yep you have made your point that you have nothing positive to say and ignore facts on the electoral website. Oh by the way TM probably would hard brexit the UK (it has always been a real possibility and still is) after Junkers speech yesterday. This speech is exactly why people voted to leave the EU.

Oh well to avoid a debate I am using these today :Headphone


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see on the news TM has chosen to do her major speech on the withdrawal from the EU in Florence. Aparently she is going to try break the deadlock with the EU and UK (Although this is only a guess by the media at what TM is going to announce as even the MP's don't know yet from what I have heard on the news).


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I see, student, graduate, former civil servant. Still wants Brexit, but for some reason is concerned about businesses and trade free of tariffs. Copy pasted a few exaggerated statements from others. A young Brexiter who wanted trade without any of the conditions the Eu apply and thought we'd get it. Now he thinks we won't, he's panicking. Apparently.
> 
> Negotiation is like haggling. You don't put all your cards on the table and agree to the first price discussed. You gradually meet somewhere in the middle with something acceptable to both sides. If people are going to roll over at the first hurdle, they shouldn't have entered the race. Thankfully young cards like him aren't at the negotiating table.
> 
> If the uk end up with no deal, hey ho. There's more to life (and trade) than trade tariffs.


Seems to be saying what experts have said about tarriffs - but what do experts know....

We don't have anything to negotiate with. And the tories (along with their mates in the press) seem to be doing everything they possibly can to ruin our good will with the EU with their aggressive language & lies.

This is still one of the funniest things i've come across to sum up the dire position we're in.

:Hilarious


EU lays down a royal flush. UK looks at own cards: Mr Bun the Baker, 
Pikachu, a Shadowmage, a fireball spell, and the Fool.



samuelsmiles said:


> We will know very soon - as we will Boris Johnson's promise to ban all ivory trading. Thankfully we don't have a fascist government so we still have the means to vote them out if not satisfied with their actions at the next general election.


In the meantime 55 elephants a day are being massacred We have a dangerously authoritarian government that has just pulled off a power grab. Nothing to see here, hey? 



MiffyMoo said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...talent-amid-mutiny-75-tell-brussels-dont/amp/
> 
> This lot seem pretty confident as well
> View attachment 324917
> 
> 
> I'm also quite willing to believe Bill Gates on this subject


The overwhelming majority of scientist tell us leaving the EU will be a disaster MM. Scientists for Britain seems to be fronted by UKIP & hard right conservatives - so they're hardly objective lol Also, & very worryingly, it appears the person who runs 'Scientists for Britain' also runs 'Veterans for Britain'. Veterans for Britain is linked to the 'Cambridge Analytica' scandal. Who do you trust, the vast majority of the scientific community - or S4B?










Is that the same Bill Gates who talks the talk on climate change but wont walk the walk? He refuses to divest from the fossil fuel industry despite the Guardians high profile campaign begging him to. I'm afraid money is priority over our living planet, tax haven Britain will certainly benefit tax avoiders like Bill though.


----------



## Honeys mum




----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> Despite revealing my left leaning political tendencies, I think this is worthy of mention.
> 
> *Gove says UK would block chlorinated chicken from US, even if that held up trade deal*
> _Gove says a post-Brexit trade deal with the US would have to be ratified by the House of Commons. And the British people do not want to see animal welfare standards watered down, or labour standards watered down either.
> 
> If we cannot reach agreement on the US on these points, the deal will have to be limited in scope.
> 
> Q: So would the government actually hold up a US trade deal if it involved the UK having to accept chlorinated chicken?
> 
> Yes, says Gove, very directly._


You really believe the man prepared to oversee the pointless massacre of 33,000 badgers?

.


----------



## noushka05

*HaveIGotNewsForYou*‏Verified [email protected]*haveigotnews* 11h11 hours ago

Apple launch the new iPhone breXit


----------



## noushka05

If this doesn't ring alarm bells about the plans the hard right government has for this country, nothing will. At least the EU will be able to make progressive changes once we're out. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/739a2132-98c2-11e7-8c3c-cb45202c3d59


_The EU wants to clamp down on tax dodging by Amazon, Google, Facebook, etc. We, our Government, are stopping it._


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> The majority of people who voted leave were taken in by the lies


''
If I read this one more time I shall scream. NO, you're wrong. All the people I know who voted Brexit had already made up their minds before the Brexit and Remain campaigns (or 'lies' if you prefer) started. And unlike some of the Remain posters, they don't read _The Sun._


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Fair dos if it was 80%


If it had been 99% you lot would still be ranting and raving.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Are none of the remainers even vaguely disturbed by Juncker's speech yesterday? They certainly had enough to say about the Henry VIII clause (and before anyone tears into me, I will reiterate - I am unhappy about too much power going to anyone)


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Bisbow

MiffyMoo said:


> Are none of the remainers even vaguely disturbed by Juncker's speech yesterday? They certainly had enough to say about the Henry VIII clause (and before anyone tears into me, I will reiterate - I am unhappy about too much power going to anyone)


Of course they are not
The EU can do no wrong in their eyes, only those of us that can see what is happening are concerned


----------



## stockwellcat.

MiffyMoo said:


> Are none of the remainers even vaguely disturbed by Juncker's speech yesterday? They certainly had enough to say about the Henry VIII clause (and before anyone tears into me, I will reiterate - I am unhappy about too much power going to anyone)


It certainly had me worried.

It is clear the EU are planning a desparate power grab and forcing countries that don't have the Euro currency to adopt it after Brexit. Also his speech about outstanding trade deals being finalised before brexit also seemed very desparate as they must be scared the UK will succeed after Brexit.

Junker had me very concerned yesterday. Now I understand why TM wants the Henry the 8th Clause and retract my concerns over this.

You think we should be worried about a power grab in the UK, what about the power grab in the EU so they can create the United States of Europe.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> I like the Eu and its powerful leaders less and less with each passing day. I'm pleased we're getting out before it's too late and they make leaving impossible.


Me neither!
And listening to Juncker yesterday isnt it time he put down the bottle?
Opps, sorry, I mean moved out!


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat. said:


> It certainly had me worried.
> 
> It is clear the EU are planning a desparate power grab and forcing countries that don't have the Euro currency to adopt it after Brexit. Also his speech about outstanding trade deals being finalised before brexit also seemed very desparate as they must be scared the UK will succeed after Brexit.
> 
> Junker had me very concerned yesterday. Now I understand why TM wants the Henry the 8th Clause and retract my concerns over this.
> 
> You think we should be worried about a power grab in the UK, what about the power grab in the EU so they can create the United States of Europe.


And he wants to make himself overlord of everything by merging his job with Donald Tusk. There's alarm bells ringing so loudly here!


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> So non-binding referendum remember. You cannot provide solid reasoning for damaging the country. You ignore the evidence. Oh look the remainers ignore what.. soundbites not backed by reality.
> .


Some might say the uk was damaged the day we "erm" joined! 
I wouldn't say that, but I would certainly say since joining we have definitely suffered severe fractures!

But in the defence of the eu maybe that's our own fault for allowing it. Maybe we dont have,pride in our country and our values, maybe we think we are interior, or just maybe we "think" we like the feel of that big EU security blanket.

I somehow for some reason don't see the polish people as quite so gullible as us.


----------



## Bisbow

They are all so scared we will make a success of being independent so that other countries will follow us out that they are doing everything they can to try to bring us to heel and are making everything as difficult as possible
They don't want to loose their cash cow


----------



## rona

Bisbow said:


> They are all so scared we will make a success of being independent so that other countries will follow us out that they are doing everything they can to try to bring us to heel and are making everything as difficult as possible
> They don't want to loose their cash cow


I think it's more about making sure no one else rebels, we have always been a thorn in the side, but since Maggie, they have been gradually taking over and would have succeeded in the end. 
I never thought I'd ever say this, but thank goodness for the Cameron premiership


----------



## MiffyMoo

James Dyson is pretty upbeat as well:









*DYSON: NO DEAL BREXIT WON'T HURT UK*
_Dyson: I think Britain is putting forward very positive suggestions and they're not being reciprocated by the other side. But that doesn't particularly surprise me and I suspect that we'll have to leave without a deal and that we'll have to trade under WTO regulations which frankly are going to hurt the Europeans more than they hurt the British. _

_BBC: Would they not hurt your business?_

_Dyson: Not at all actually, we already pay the WTO tariff into Europe and it hasn't hurt us at all… It's quite wrong to call it a single market. It's a series of different markets with different languages, different marketing required and different laws, and in our case different plugs and different boxes. So we don't view it as a single market, it's actually a very highly complex and broken up market… The rest of the world is growing at a far greater rate than Europe so the opportunity is to export to the rest of the world and to capitalise on that._


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Are none of the remainers even vaguely disturbed by Juncker's speech yesterday? They certainly had enough to say about the Henry VIII clause (and before anyone tears into me, I will reiterate - I am unhappy about too much power going to anyone)


Let's look at the euro thing.. hardly what the UK media pushed it as..


> If we want the euro to unite rather than divide our continent, then it should be more than the currency of a select group of countries. The euro is meant to be the single currency of the European Union as a whole. All but two of our Member States are required and entitled to join the euro once they fulfil all conditions.
> 
> Member States that want to join the euro must be able to do so. This is why I am proposing to create a Euro-accession Instrument, offering technical and even financial assistance.


So where are countries being "forced" to join the euro? New members, yes that's nothing new. They know the terms before attempting to join.

Maybe the bit about a "finance minister":


> The European Economy and Finance Minister must be accountable to the European Parliament.


Perhaps you can go through http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-3165_en.htm and point out exactly what the problem quotes are.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Yep you have made your point that you have nothing positive to say and ignore facts on the electoral website. Oh by the way TM probably would hard brexit the UK (it has always been a real possibility and still is) after Junkers speech yesterday. This speech is exactly why people voted to leave the EU.
> 
> Oh well to avoid a debate I am using these today :Headphone


So nothing new in other words. May announced a hard Brexit in January 
She called an election to strengthen her hand and lost the Tories their majority.



Calvine said:


> ''
> If I read this one more time I shall scream. NO, you're wrong. All the people I know who voted Brexit had already made up their minds before the Brexit and Remain campaigns (or 'lies' if you prefer) started. And unlike some of the Remain posters, they don't read _The Sun._


Gosh, do you really know 17million people?! Have you asked each and every one why they voted leave?

Incredible!

Oh yes, The Sun claims 70% of their readers voted leave on the advice of their paper. That doesn't surprise me. It's incredible how some I know still believe the Turkey joining the EU " threat" despite Junker's claims this is out of the question.


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> James Dyson is pretty upbeat as well:


Well Dysan.. pushing for brexit from the start. So tell me.. can you clarify why are they paying WTO tarriffs?

https://www.ft.com/content/d8e3eb44-3244-11e6-bda0-04585c31b153


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> They are all so scared we will make a success of being independent so that other countries will follow us out that they are doing everything they can to try to bring us to heel and are making everything as difficult as possible
> They don't want to loose their cash cow


Hey, you may have hit that proverbial nail bang on the head again
How very dare you suggest such


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> I think it's more about making sure no one else rebels, we have always been a thorn in the side, but since Maggie, they have been gradually taking over and would have succeeded in the end.
> I never thought I'd ever say this, but thank goodness for the Cameron premiership


Think you have something there rona that many fail to see, since maggie our position in the EU has been on a downward spiral. Guess we have to blame that on the weaknesses of those representing us.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It certainly had me worried.
> 
> It is clear the EU are planning a desparate power grab and forcing countries that don't have the Euro currency to adopt it after Brexit. Also his speech about outstanding trade deals being finalised before brexit also seemed very desparate as they must be scared the UK will succeed after Brexit.
> 
> Junker had me very concerned yesterday. Now I understand why TM wants the Henry the 8th Clause and retract my concerns over this.
> 
> You think we should be worried about a power grab in the UK, what about the power grab in the EU so they can create the United States of Europe.


Dear God, I dread to think where you get your information from!

What I think you are referring to is the 27 member states will work towards this now the whingers in the UK government who've wanted THEIR way and vetoed these attempts will no longer be around to disrupt proceedings.

Yes, this is post Brexit good news but not one Brexiteers would wish for!

They thought the UK leaving would create a domino effect.

Instead Europe will become stronger with the UK looking more pathetic as it stands alone completely isolated.

In these uncertain times is it not better to work together than to go it alone, especially with this government in charge.

You say you now support TM's Henry VIII clause! How will you feel when foxhunting is reinstated without the need to consult that in Parliament? Just thought I'd mention something you said were passionately against that's all.....


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Dear God, I dread to think where you get your information from!
> 
> Instead Europe will become stronger with the UK looking more pathetic as it stands alone completely isolated.


You ever heard of a little fella called david and his encounter with that big bloke called goliath?


Sorry kittenkong but got no passion in me to argue the toss any longer x


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Elles

I would prefer if Europe improved for its people and that the uk did. Why assume that people who don't like the Eu want people in Europe to be worse off? It could be that Brexit and the dissent in many Eu countries was just the kick the Eu needed. However the general flavour I'm getting from the speech is that the Eu will take more power, give small dissenting countries less and eventually will end up with one person at its head controlling everything in Europe.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I would prefer if Europe improved for its people and that the uk did. Why assume that people who don't like the Eu want people in Europe to be worse off? It could be that Brexit and the dissent in many Eu countries was just the kick the Eu needed. However the general flavour I'm getting from the speech is that the Eu will take more power, give small dissenting countries less and eventually will end up with one person at its head controlling everything in Europe.


Ideal situation UK and EU do well. However the evidence shows brexit will cause more damage than improve anything. Not just in the UK but in the EU as well. If nothing else, the UK was an important balancing viewpoint within the EU which will be missed.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Well Dysan.. pushing for brexit from the start. So tell me.. can you clarify why are they paying WTO tarriffs?
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/d8e3eb44-3244-11e6-bda0-04585c31b153


Because he doesn't manufacture in the EU. Which makes him more than qualified to comment on WTO and the shambles that is the EU market place.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> .


You like making the point this morning.

But again Dear God have you listened to the power hungry, greedy man called Junker who wants total domination in Europe. I suggest you go and listen to his speech.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Right my PF time is up for today. I have to pack for the weekend as I am off on holiday for a week. So I will put my PF ear muffs on for the day. Have fun. :Headphone


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Because h doesn't manufacture in the EU. Which makes him more than qualified to comment on WTO and the shambles that is the EU market place.


And as he manufacturers in china, I guess to us in the uk are paying a higher price due to the import duty, not aware which tariff his products would come under but guessing it could be as much as 15% ok as he is importing I guess that would only be on the net and not the gross price but whichever way we look at it its still a cost?
Is this right or I have,I got the,cart in front of the horse?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You like making the point this morning.
> 
> But again Dear God have you listened to the power hungry, greedy man called Junker who wants total domination in Europe. I suggest you go and listen to his speech.


How about the power hungry greedy woman in Downing Street who wants supreme rule in the fashion of a medieval monach?

I suggest you read this.
Chilling......
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/09/theresa-may-takes-her-darkest-most-desperate-turn-yet

I think Junkers speech is very good. I fully support closer integration and adopting the Euro.

In these uncertain times is it not better to work together on a more united front? The NO campaigners in the Scottish Indy ref said that often enough and of course the UK as a whole were safely within the EU at the time.

But backwards thinking Brits think they know better.

They're now resorting to medieval times...


----------



## Elles

Not quite sure how the logistics of taxing companies like eBay and Amazon in different countries will work and on what basis. Will it make it more expensive to sell through eBay in countries that have higher taxes for example. On what basis will they tax them. A physical presence, or shipping into the country, or shipping out? Having .eu or .uk. What do countries outside the Eu think of it. Will they end up paying tax to more than one country, or will it be a worldwide agreement. What about companies operating from tax havens and Ireland. I'd agree that they have to pay tax on profits somewhere, but for me it's like trying to imagine how large the universe is. The problems are immense and if they aren't careful any rules will be leaker than a sieve.

Not my area of expertise though. Of course these massive companies won't actually pay any tax, the little people using them will, in higher fees.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Because he doesn't manufacture in the EU. Which makes him more than qualified to comment on WTO and the shambles that is the EU market place.


Yep, this is someone who has stated that the UK will thrive in manufacturing if looser employment laws are introduced. EU rules in that regards must be annoying. As for WTO, tell me how many other companies agree with him? How many companies rely on the advantages of the single market and lack of red tape shipping parts rather than complete products across borders? Dysan has previously stated that it's cheaper to build in China as import taxes are less for completed products.

Let's look at another company.. guiness https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-over-a-hard-border-with-ireland-after-brexit


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> How about the power hungry greedy woman in Downing Street who wants supreme rule in the fashion of a medieval monach?
> 
> . But backwards thinking Brits think they know better.
> 
> They're now resorting to medieval times...


It is not the leavers who are backward thinking, it is remainers who are not thinking at all that is the problem


----------



## Elles

Hence the buy British campaigns. It is cheaper to source parts in China. It's cheaper to manufacture elsewhere. A friend has some of her luxury products manufactured in India. She helped set up a small, modern workshop/factory with mod cons and air con with a young Indian entrepreneur and the workers have decent pay and conditions. They use British and European materials, but manufacture in India. They organised pretty much the whole thing over Skype, with samples sent to her until she was satisfied and very few actual face to face meetings.

She also has a different version of the same product, but more expensive, made in the Uk. I have the British version of it.

It's not that difficult for many small companies these days. The world is getting smaller.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> Right my PF time is up for today. I have to pack for the weekend as I am off on holiday for a week. So I will put my PF ear muffs on for the day. Have fun. :Headphone


Have a great time.


----------



## Elles

Closer cooperation between countries is great. Putting one man at the head of a group of countries and dictating to them what they can and can't do isn't cooperation.


----------



## Jesthar

Bisbow said:


> It is not the leavers who are backward thinking, it is remainers who are not thinking at all that is the problem


Now, come on - statements like this don't help anything. You disappoint me, Bisbow, I expect better from someone of your usual debating calibre.

Anyone on ANY side who doesn't think is a problem. But just because someone doesn't think the same things as you, doesn't mean they are not thinking. Just because people have concerns about things that you don't have, doesn't mean those concerns aren't real (or that they want the UK to fail). Dismissing those concerns as intellectually invalid isn't really going to encourage them to have a positive view of Leaving, is it?


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Closer cooperation between countries is great. Putting one man at the head of a group of countries and dictating to them what they can and can't do isn't cooperation.


So tell me as I've not studied it in depth.. Where in the speech is that described? I did notice comments on need for democracy throughout. Speech previously linked.

Edit: Found it.


> Europe would function better if we were to* merge the Presidents of the European Commission and the European Council*.
> 
> This is nothing against my good friend Donald, with whom I have worked seamlessly together for the past three years. This is nothing against Donald or against me.
> 
> Europe would be easier to understand if one captain was steering the ship.
> 
> *Having a single President would better reflect the true nature of our European Union as both a Union of States and a Union of citizens.*


President of the European Council.. has no executive powers. President of the European council is accountable to the European Parliament, the MEP's.

So it's not one man at the head dictating policy, the EU parliament will make the decisions. It's hardly what the UK media describes. Of course that's if the EU parliament even accepts the merging. Maybe you should tell Sir Jeremy John Heywood he's too powerful and able to dictate policy as he's the singular senior UK civil servant.

Love the way some people on this thread jump at things like this and then say they are not, nor have been influenced by the media.


----------



## MiffyMoo

*EU tax plan 'is a bigger threat to Ireland than Brexit'*

*https://www.irishtimes.com/business...eat-to-ireland-than-brexit-1.3220094?mode=amp*


----------



## Elles

So it's ok to read between the lines and draw conclusions if you're pro Eu, but not if you're suspicious of the Eu? 

He said that he wants one person at the top eg him, with a supporter second in line and for issues that currently require unanimous agreement to go to majority instead. Hence undermining smaller members with fewer MEPs, or those taking a minority political, ethical, or moral stance. The commission already overrule MEPs on some issues and can impose sanctions on members if it feels it necessary. It's becoming quite the political body.

People will take opposing views on whether that's a good thing or not. Currently those opposing conservative rule seem to think it's a good thing that is of benefit. Up to them. Maybe if It was Donald Trump making the same speech people would think differently.


----------



## Elles

MiffyMoo said:


> *EU tax plan 'is a bigger threat to Ireland than Brexit'*
> 
> *https://www.irishtimes.com/business...eat-to-ireland-than-brexit-1.3220094?mode=amp*


I thought Ireland might have something to say. One of our competitors operates from Ireland, because of the tax breaks. As do a number of companies that are actually English really. One Brit selling direct to the public tried operating from Bulgaria, because its cheaper to live and trade from there, but the Brits wouldn't buy from him with 'made and shipped from Bulgaria' on his products, so he moved back.


----------



## Bisbow

Jesthar said:


> Now, come on - statements like this don't help anything. You disappoint me, Bisbow, I expect better from someone of your usual debating calibre.


But so many of you are not thinking, you are just quoting from other places to try to prove your point
All we see are articles and silly cartoons shouting down our concerns
A lot of you are being lead by the nose by so called "experts"
How many have come up with an original thought of their own


----------



## Elles

I haven't read any media. I read the speech with my suspicious hat on.


----------



## Goblin

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-brussels-bureaucrats/



> The Commission is perhaps the most visible EU institution, but it is not necessarily the most powerful and is certainly not the government of Europe.





Bisbow said:


> But so many of you are not thinking, you are just quoting from other places to try to prove your point


Ah but we are thinking. Difference is between wishful thinking and thinking based on reality. Leavers cannot provide reasoning and advantages for leaving which stand up to scrutiny.


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> *EU tax plan 'is a bigger threat to Ireland than Brexit'*


So let's look at the companies mentioned.. Facebook, amazon and google.. sound familiar. Aren't they the ones using places like Ireland to avoid paying UK taxes? Remind me again how much tax has the UK lost from just those three companies?

Let's also look at almost the last comment.. 


> Mr Coffey said he still rated the common consolidated corporate tax base (CCCTB) risk to Ireland as low given the level of opposition to it across Europe.


So implementation threat is low due to the EU democratic process.


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-brussels-bureaucrats/
> 
> Ah but we are thinking. Difference is between wishful thinking and thinking based on reality. Leavers cannot provide reasoning and advantages for leaving which stand up to scrutiny.


We have, many times but you choose to belittle it or ignore it if you can't find a way to disprove it


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> We have, many times but you choose to belittle it or ignore it if you can't find a way to disprove it


Ah so actually pointing out how reasoning is flawed based on reality is now called belittling it. No wonder you apparantly dislike experts and complain about their influence.


----------



## Jesthar

Bisbow said:


> But so many of you are not thinking, you are just quoting from other places to try to prove your point
> All we see are articles and silly cartoons shouting down our concerns
> A lot of you are being lead by the nose by so called "experts"
> How many have come up with an original thought of their own


I haven't seen many Leavers come up with any original thoughts either, though. Then again, I don't expect much of that on either side - there's nothing new under the sun (or IN _The Sun_  ) and all that.

I quite like "experts", you know - in general. If I have an accident, for example, I'd much rather someone called an ambulance and got me taken to hospital to be patched up by the "experts" than tried to do it themselves armed with their CSE grade 3 mode 6 in tyre changing and some decades out of date basic first aid training.  True, some "experts" are better than others, and even "experts" can get it wrong sometimes, but at least they tend to have a higher percentage chance of knowing what they are doing/talking about and therefore being in the correct ballpark.

Speaking personally, I fully admit I am nowhere near capable of understanding the totality of the chaos that is Brexit and all the implications for business, travel, welfare, people etc. And I say this as someone who enjoys research, knows how to employ both scientific and historic methodology, and has a knack for psychology too. Just the EU on its own is simply too complex an entity to get my head around in anything other than very broad brush strokes in such a short space of time, even if I wanted to. And that's before you get on to the other European agreements such as the Customs Union etc. Therefore I will tend to defer to the opinion of those who do have experience in these areas, providing those opinions are carefully explained and backed up with examples and evidence.


----------



## Elles

Yet. The Eu isn't just the commission. The commission can overrule MEPs and ignore recommendations already though. Countries are expected to delegate many 'less important ' issues to the Eu to deal with for them. Some think it's a good thing and some don't. In this instance though we are trying to predict the Eu of the future based on a speech, not analyse its current influence.

Eventually the Eu members will have the same currency and the same taxes, I don't doubt. Probably sooner now that the UK is coming out. Whether that works out to be a good thing for the world, or bad, only time will tell. It will probably make it more attractive to trade from countries like Germany and France, if there's no tax breaks to be had elsewhere. Weaker, less attractive countries in the Eu will have to try something else to attract investment and corporations. Maybe India, China and Africa will do better out of it. I presume the Eu will then distribute taxes for Europe, so that countries not getting enough from tax to support themselves will get money from those who are. An ambitious undertaking.

It's not all about the money though. People are talking as though the Eu are only involved in finance, trade and trade deals. It's creeping into far more areas than that.

I accept that many think that the Eu is a good cause. I'm not convinced, but there you go. I'm just one person, my suspicious mind isn't particularly important, especially as I voted on the losing side.


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> Ah so actually pointing out how reasoning is flawed based on reality is now called belittling it. No wonder you apparantly dislike experts and complain about their influence.


It is not experts I dislike it is those thinking they are experts and spouting rubbish so they can steal headlines and there are plenty of those in the remainer camp

I admit I could be wrong to be on the leavers side and could end up up to my neck in doo-doo
But I don't think so and you have said nothing to make me change my mind. in fact all you raving is making me more sure I am on the right side


----------



## Elles

Bisbow said:


> I admit I could be wrong to be on the leavers side and could end up up to my neck in doo-doo
> But I don't think so and you have said nothing to make me change my mind. in fact all you raving is making me more sure I am on the right side


I don't think so. I think we're right to be leaving too. It would be good if there wasn't so much delay and umming and ahhing over it, before they've even got to the nitty gritty, but if they keep going we'll get there in the end.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Countries are expected to delegate many 'less important ' issues to the Eu to deal with for them. Some think it's a good thing and some don't. In this instance though we are trying to predict the Eu of the future based on a speech, not analyse its current influence.


You mean bits in the speech like: 


> We have handed back powers where it makes more sense for national governments to deal with things. Thanks to the good work of Commissioner Vestager, we have delegated 90% of state aid decisions to the regional or local level.


----------



## Elles

There are many controls and rules over state aid that countries are obliged to follow. There's no need for the Eu to oversee it and make the hand outs themselves, because if countries don't abide by the rules, they'll be in trouble. The countries can make their own decisions, within the rules. It makes no odds to the Eu either way.


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat. said:


> Right my PF time is up for today. I have to pack for the weekend as I am off on holiday for a week. So I will put my PF ear muffs on for the day. Have fun. :Headphone


Right I have packed for my trip up North on Saturday. So what have I missed?


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> Right I have packed for my trip up North on Saturday. So what have I missed?


Rees-Mogg saying that food banks show how generous the British people are and the reason for the increase in their use is that this government told people they exist, when the labour government hid them? I nearly choked on my fizzy water. Does he say stuff like that for effect, or does he really believe it? He should brexit himself. To somewhere in the middle of the channel, without a boat.

I wish he was a comedian instead of a politician. I could like him if he was a comedian.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Rees-Mogg saying that food banks show how generous the British people are and the reason for the increase in their use is that this government told people they exist, when the labour government hid them? I nearly choked on my fizzy water. Does he say stuff like that for effect, or does he really believe it? He should brexit himself. To somewhere in the middle of the channel, without a boat.
> 
> I wish he was a comedian instead of a politician. I could like him if he was a comedian.


Yes he should be a comedian. I just choked on my water laughing at what you put :Hilarious


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> We have handed back powers where it makes more sense for national governments to deal with things.:


And you don't see anything wrong with this statement?


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see the EU are preparing for the UK to crash out with no deal.

*Europe is starting to fear a 'no deal' Brexit - Michel Barnier best not push Britain too far*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...r-no-deal-brexit-michel-barnier-best-not/amp/


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> And you don't see anything wrong with this statement?


I thought the same @rona


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> And you don't see anything wrong with this statement?


EU changing and adapting, giving powers back which it has usurped in the past is wrong? The EU needs to change and adapt. It needs to learn from mistakes and correct them. So tell me what is wrong about a system which adapts and learns from mistakes? Is pushing for more democracy and transparancy wrong? The EU is far from perfect, nobody has claimed it is, however it can and is changing as time goes on. We could have been an important part of that change, guiding it in a direction we want. Instead we decide to isolate ourselves, conning ourselves that it's better to be alone. If we abandoned the UK government for all it's wrongdoings in the past where would we be?

Far from the media horror stories about Junker's power grab, the speech is far from it. Some describe it as a personal power grab by Junker which is a laugh considering his term is up in 2019 and he's already stated he will not run for another term.

Oh @rona.. you are good at pointing out problems with the EU.. you've yet to explain how leaving helps anyone.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> EU changing and adapting, giving powers back


 That's not the way it came across to me and many others yesterday with Junkers grand speech. It was more like a desparate power grab.


----------



## Elles

It isn't giving powers back. The same restrictions, obligations and entitlements will apply, it will just be different people employed by the states instead of the Eu checking who's entitled and how it will benefit and doing the handouts. The countries can't give state aid to some one, or project that the Eu wouldn't, or they'd fall foul of Eu law. As I understand it, unless something else has changed in the meantime.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> It isn't giving powers back. The same restrictions, obligations and entitlements will apply, it will just be different people employed by the states instead of the Eu checking who's entitled and how it will benefit and doing the handouts.


WTO has it wrapped into "Subsidies and Countervailing Measures" forming restrictions, obligations and entitlements. Does that mean the WTO is taking all the power?


----------



## Elles

Btw I don't disagree with governments in the Eu having someone/law overseeing who they give hand outs to, to keep a fairer playing field, though that assumes there's no criminality, or corruption. However, getting the national and local bodies to deal with the logistical aspect isn't what I'd call giving back power.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> WTO has it wrapped into "Subsidies and Countervailing Measures" forming restrictions, obligations and entitlements. Does that mean the WTO is taking all the power?


It's the idea that it's some kind of generous act and reduction in the power of the Eu that I object to. Manipulative language imo.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> It's the idea that it's some kind of generous act and reduction in the power of the Eu that I object to. Manipulative language imo.


Nice sidestep, does the WTO rules or while we are at it the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) which the UK is a part of, mean that those organisations hold the power as they set the rules? Can you provide examples of where the EU has dictated governments to spend their aid budgets to particular areas?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> That's not the way it came across to me and many others yesterday with Junkers grand speech. It was more like a desparate power grab.


There's a shock, let me guess that you read the original first not being influenced by others or the media headlines. Strange how nobody ever is.


----------



## Elles

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/overview/index_en.html

I don't care who deals with state aid, but don't try to tell me that you (juncker) admit you've power grabbed, but are now generously giving back power where it was taken. What for? An exaggeration on the irrelevant to appease a distrustful public? Or because you now judge government bodies deserving and genuinely think you have the power to judge and be generous. Either way, to the suspicious it doesn't come across well.


----------



## kimthecat

I really couldn't see us guiding the EU in the direction we want . Even within the Eu it seemed we were outsiders.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Please, please can I say something.

For nearly 16 months now the remainers have been saying the same thing thinking they know better than us leavers because they have a grudge against us. So lets get something clear right now WTO rules means we will be still trading with the EU if we do not get a deal with the EU (which is becoming more and more likely) whilst we strike new trade deals around the world. What is making me laugh in hysterics is one minute the remainers are saying that they respect the referendum result but are blatently lying because they haven't/don't. Then they try and belittle us leavers for making the decision that was made because on referendum voting day they didnt take the referendum seriously, over 25 thousand votes got rejected and the remainers that voted, voted leave as a joke and wanted to retract their vote the next day. Oh what else do we have to throw at them, perhaps the fact that we are leaving the EU one way or the other. Perhaps if you guys voted responsibly things would have been different and there was those that could not be bothered to vote. I myself now cannot wait to leave the EU after Junkers grand speech yesterday as it has shown the EU's true colours. So please for crickeys sake give it a rest. You guys acted irresponsibly on referendum voting day in the full knowledge that the vote was going to be honoured as Cameron promised it would be on TV and in the leaflets pushed through every households door across the UK. You know no better than we do except spectulation from people that claim they can see into the future and label themselves as experts when they don't know themselves as brexit hasn't happened yet. Now I will put my PF ear muffs back on :Headphone Look what your own side done before finger pointing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> There's a shock, let me guess that you read the original first not being influenced by others or the media headlines. Strange how nobody ever is.


Not media headlines pal. I actually saw the speech on TV.


----------



## Elles

I have the BBC, Government and European pages bookmarked btw, not our biased press. Why would I read what a journalist thinks, when I can read, or watch the originals and draw my own conclusions? I have my own bias and experiences to draw on, I don't need someone else's.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I have the BBC, Government and European pages bookmarked btw, not our biased press. Why would I read what a journalist thinks, when I can read, or watch the originals and draw my own conclusions? I have my own bias and experiences to draw on, I don't need someone else's.


Ditto. Get it from the horses mouth so to speak.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am sorry for killing this thread with my post above but I couldn't refrain myself from producing actual facts instead of fictional facts the remainers keep coming up with. Sorry if the sting was to deep for them, but it is truth instead of fiction. The actual facts will be revealed when the UK leaves the EU. The whole debate was doing my head in. So again sorry for pointing out hard facts.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> It is not the leavers who are backward thinking, it is remainers who are not thinking at all that is the problem


Think maybe its the brainwashing


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Please, please can I say something.
> 
> For nearly 16 months now the remainers have been saying the same thing thinking they know better than us leavers because they have a grudge against us. So lets get something clear right now WTO rules means we will be still trading with the EU if we do not get a deal with the EU (which is becoming more and more likely) whilst we strike new trade deals around the world. What is making me laugh in hysterics is one minute the remainers are saying that they respect the referendum result but are blatently lying because they haven't/don't. Then they try and belittle us leavers for making the decision that was made because on referendum voting day they didnt take the referendum seriously, over 25 thousand votes got rejected and the remainers that voted, voted leave as a joke and wanted to retract their vote the next day. Oh what else do we have to throw at them, perhaps the fact that we are leaving the EU one way or the other. Perhaps if you guys voted responsibly things would have been different and there was those that could not be bothered to vote. I myself now cannot wait to leave the EU after Junkers grand speech yesterday as it has shown the EU's true colours. So please for crickeys sake give it a rest. You guys acted irresponsibly on referendum voting day in the full knowledge that the vote was going to be honoured as Cameron promised it would be on TV and in the leaflets pushed through every households door across the UK. You know no better than we do except spectulation from people that claim they can see into the future and label themselves as experts when they don't know themselves as brexit hasn't happened yet. Now I will put my PF ear muffs back on :Headphone Look what your own side done before finger pointing.


The thing I find most upsetting to me personally is the lack of compassion towards none UK born citizens within the EU. They have made the UK their home just as many from the UK have made countries like Spain and France etc. their home.

They are not "benefit tourists" you read so much about in the right wing press. Some of these people, and they are still people despite not being "British" are friends and colleagues of mine for many years. They're treated appallingly by this government, as bargaining chips.

I've seen little objections from Brexiteers. At least Keith Starmer has pledged to unilaterally guarantee the right of citizens within the EU to remain.

Before anyone decides to spout up more nationalist propaganda give yourself a minute to think of these people who've contributed a great deal to the economy.

They deserve better than the way this disgusting government have treated them.


----------



## Elles

I don't think that attitude has been expressed on this thread?

ETA I've heard the term health tourist, but never heard of benefit tourist.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I don't know who Keith Sterner is I know who Keir Starmer is. I also haven't heard of a benefit tourist on this thread.

I do stick by my post in 11725 (and post 11730 and post 11732 just to make a point and to make another point ).


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat., post: 1064973759, member: 1461195"]I don't know who Keith Sterner is I know who Keir Starmer is. 

Yes of course. It was late and had just finished work.

It was the failure to condemn the government's attitude towards EU citizens by Brexiteers I was on about. 

If anyone has condemned this I don't recall seeing it.


----------



## KittenKong

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59b67503e4b0b5e531076cbc?

It gets better. Seems you're now not allowed to speak Welsh in Wales according to some.....


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> The thing I find most upsetting to me personally is the lack of compassion towards none UK born citizens within the EU. They have made the UK their home just as many from the UK have made countries like Spain and France etc. their home.
> 
> They are not "benefit tourists" you read so much about in the right wing press. Some of these people, and they are still people despite not being "British" are friends and colleagues of mine for many years. They're treated appallingly by this government, as bargaining chips.
> 
> I've seen little objections from Brexiteers. At least Keith Starmer has pledged to unilaterally guarantee the right of citizens within the EU to remain.
> 
> Before anyone decides to spout up more nationalist propaganda give yourself a minute to think of these people who've contributed a great deal to the economy.
> 
> They deserve better than the way this disgusting government have treated them.


I agree KK. It is upsetting & its embarrassing the way they are being treated. I've seen countless of messages like this - 

*"We didn't come here as migrants. We came here as #European citizens. We are not visitors. This is our home"*

Our country is barely recognisable anymore- & its going to get so much worse.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The thing I find most upsetting to me personally is the lack of compassion towards none UK born citizens within the EU. They have made the UK their home just as many from the UK have made countries like Spain and France etc. their home.
> 
> They are not "benefit tourists" you read so much about in the right wing press. Some of these people, and they are still people despite not being "British" are friends and colleagues of mine for many years. They're treated appallingly by this government, as bargaining chips.
> 
> I've seen little objections from Brexiteers. At least Keith Starmer has pledged to unilaterally guarantee the right of citizens within the EU to remain.
> 
> Before anyone decides to spout up more nationalist propaganda give yourself a minute to think of these people who've contributed a great deal to the economy.
> 
> They deserve better than the way this disgusting government have treated them.


I shall respond to this now I know you was tired.

Remainers are just as responsible for the position the EU citizens are in, in this country and the UK citizens are in, in EU countries. Why? Well look how you guys behaved on referendum voting day. Jog your memory with my post 11725. Perhaps the remainers should be blaming themselves for what has happened.

So you guys can post news articles blaming the leave voters as much as you want and finger point at us knowing that you guys voted irreseponsibily on the Referendum day. If you guys voted properly then things may have been different. In my opinion nothing is the leavers fault as we said we was going to vote the way we did and did.

You guys had a mix bag of votes that leavers thought was funny knowing Cameron said he would honour the outcome of the referendum on TV and through leaflets every UK household got.

This is why a 2nd referendum should be disallowed because remainers did not vote responsibily in the first one. Oh yes I forgot MP's already voted on a second referendum and said no in Westminster Hall so there will be no second referendum to reverse your mistakes. https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/131215

**STOP BLAMING THE LEAVER VOTERS. YOU PUT YOURSELVES IN THIS POSITION.**

Thank you for helping the leave voters to win the referendum.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I shall respond to this now I know you was tired.
> 
> Remainers are just as responsible for the position the EU citizens are in, in this country and the UK citizens are in, in EU countries. Why? Well look how you guys behaved on referendum voting day. Jog your memory with my post 11725. Perhaps the remainers should be blaming themselves for what has happened.
> 
> So you guys can post news articles blaming the leave voters as much as you want and finger point at us knowing that you guys voted irreseponsibily on the Referendum day. If you guys voted properly then things may have been different. In my opinion nothing is the leavers fault as we said we was going to vote the way we did and did.
> 
> You guys had a mix bag of votes that leavers thought was funny knowing Cameron said he would honour the outcome of the referendum on TV and through leaflets every UK household got.
> 
> This is why a 2nd referendum should be disallowed because remainers did not vote responsibily in the first one. Oh yes I forgot MP's already voted on a second referendum and said no in Westminster Hall so there will be no second referendum to reverse your mistakes. https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/131215
> 
> **STOP BLAMING THE LEAVER VOTERS. YOU PUT YOURSELVES IN THIS POSITION.**
> 
> I see the good news is more remain supporters are back leaving the EU after Junkers speech 2 days ago.


You voted for it so have the balls to own it. Remainers like me listened to the experts, we have nothing to reproach ourselves for.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *You voted* *for it* so have the balls to own it. Remainers like me listened to the experts, we have nothing to reproach ourselves for.


So did some of those that said they where going to vote remain and then vote leave as a joke or because they thought the referendum was not going to be honoured even though Cameron said it would be on a numerous amount of times and then you guys wantrd to retract your voted the next day. Things may have been differently if you guys voted properly but they aren't. Thank you for helping the leave side to win the referendum results. No please stop blaming leavers as you guys have made your own beds so to speak. What I have told you in my posts (11725, 11739 and this one) are FACTS.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You voted for it so have the balls to own it. Remainers like me listened to the experts, we have nothing to reproach ourselves for.


You may have listened to economists, newspapers etc But my definition of an expert comes from different sources orther than supposed experts on newspapers, twitter, facebook, snap chat etc.

Fellow remain supporters of yours voted irresponsibily.

Regarding taking the blame. I have nothing to be blamed for as I voted the way I was always going to vote and that was leave and won.

So thanks for helping the UK to be on course for Brexit those leavers who where irresponsible on voting day.

You guys need to now accept you helped Brexit happen when it happens and you cannot deny that. You have a cheek if you carry on blaming us leavers in the knowledge that your own side helped Brexit negotiations happen and everything else that has happened after the EU Referendum Day.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> It is not the leavers who are backward thinking, it is remainers who are not thinking at all that is the problem





Bisbow said:


> But so many of you are not thinking, you are just quoting from other places to try to prove your point
> All we see are articles and silly cartoons shouting down our concerns
> A lot of you are being lead by the nose by so called "experts"
> How many have come up with an original thought of their own





Bisbow said:


> It is not experts I dislike it is those thinking they are experts and spouting rubbish so they can steal headlines and there are plenty of those in the remainer camp
> 
> I admit I could be wrong to be on the leavers side and could end up up to my neck in doo-doo
> But I don't think so and you have said nothing to make me change my mind. in fact all you raving is making me more sure I am on the right side


The consensual position of experts right across the board warned us not to leave. Its because I'm not an expert & know experts are far far better informed than I am on on the complexities of leaving the EU that I put my faith in them. I ask you again Bisbow, why is the government hiding the 50 reports on the effects of brexit on the UK? Why have the tories given themselves unprecedented power with the repeal bill? What would you say had labour done this? Did 'taking the country back' mean gifting our country to the hard right?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You may have listened to economists, newspapers etc But my definition of an expert comes from different sources orther than supposed experts on newspapers, twitter, facebook, snap chat etc.
> 
> Fellow remain supporters of yours voted irresponsibily.
> 
> Regarding taking the blame. I have nothing to be blamed for as I voted the way I was always going to vote and that was leave and won.
> 
> So thanks for helping the UK to be on course for Brexit those leavers who where irresponsible on voting day.
> 
> You guys need to know accept you helped Brexit happen. You have a cheek if you carry on blaming us leavers in the knowledge that your own side helped Brexit happen.


I listened to experts I trust - green NGOs, the Green Party, environmentalists. I listened to well respected academics & trusted public figures. Who did you listen to SWF? Your gut feeling?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I listened to experts I trust - green NGOs, the Green Party, environmentalists. I listened to well respected academics & trusted public figures. *Who did you listen to SWF? * Your gut feeling?


You trust posts on twitter, facebook, newspapers etc.

I trust the only expert I know. Me. I didn't need anyone to influence me on the way I voted so my vote was always going to be leave regardless.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> So did some of those that said they where going to vote remain and then vote leave as a joke or because they thought the referendum was not going to be honoured even though Cameron said it would be on a numerous amount of times and then you guys wantrd to retract your voted the next day. Things may have been differently if you guys voted properly but they aren't. Thank you for helping the leave side to win the referendum results. No please stop blaming leavers as you guys have made your own beds so to speak. What I have told you in my posts (11725, 11739 and this one) are FACTS.


Look you voted to leave, you're still glad you did - own it. If ,by some miracle, things go great I bet you would


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You trust posts on twitter, facebook, newspapers etc.
> 
> I trust the only expert I know. Me. I didn't need anyone to influence me on the way I voted so my vote was always going to be leave regardless.


Shared by those I trust 

Nuff said. You think you're better informed than real experts - I dont think I am.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Look you voted to leave, you're still glad you did - own it. If ,by some miracle, things go great I bet you would


I am happy I voted the way I voted, wouldn't have voted any other way.

You guys cannot carry on blaming us because your own side voted irresponsibly. Bit hypicritcal to carry on one would say. So please give it a rest.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> But backwards thinking Brits think they know better.


And still the compliments abound! Flattery will get you nowhere.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I am happy I voted the way I voted, wouldn't have voted any other way.
> 
> You guys cannot carry on blaming us because your own side voted irresponsibly. Bit hypicritcal to carry on. So please give it a rest.


I'm only responsible for myself - so stop trying to push the blame on those who voted to remain.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I'm only responsible for myself - so stop trying to push the blame on those who voted to remain.


Why not? 16 Months we have had to listen to you guys finger pointing in the knowledge you voted irreseponsibly (not you personally but leave supporters in general).
FACTS are hard to swollow aren't they when they are true.
Your own side helped push the leave voters to win.

So please give it a rest.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I shall respond to this now I know you was tired.
> 
> Remainers are just as responsible for the position the EU citizens are in, in this country and the UK citizens are in, in EU countries. Why? Well look how you guys behaved on referendum voting day. Jog your memory with my post 11725. Perhaps the remainers should be blaming themselves for what has happened.
> 
> So you guys can post news articles blaming the leave voters as much as you want and finger point at us knowing that you guys voted irreseponsibily on the Referendum day. If you guys voted properly then things may have been different. In my opinion nothing is the leavers fault as we said we was going to vote the way we did and did.
> 
> You guys had a mix bag of votes that leavers thought was funny knowing Cameron said he would honour the outcome of the referendum on TV and through leaflets every UK household got.
> 
> This is why a 2nd referendum should be disallowed because remainers did not vote responsibily in the first one. Oh yes I forgot MP's already voted on a second referendum and said no in Westminster Hall so there will be no second referendum to reverse your mistakes. https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/131215
> 
> **STOP BLAMING THE LEAVER VOTERS. YOU PUT YOURSELVES IN THIS POSITION.**
> 
> Thank you for helping the leave voters to win the referendum.


I can't believe you are actually blaming those who did NOT vote leave for the plight of EU citizens in the UK.

I'm shocked at your startling allegation. I wouldn't even believe the pro Brexit press would sink that far!

And you're very wrong to suggest pro EU supporters are now backing Brexit.

And you suggest I personally contributed to the success of the leave campaign? Where on earth did you get that from?

First of all I voted for Ed Miliband in 2015. Mr Milliband ruled out an EU referendum if he won.

My conscience is clear. I was positively against a referendum as I knew the popular press would back leave. From past experience they usually get their way (not quite as much in the last General Election).

I have always been solidly pro EU. If anything my support for the EU has grown in the months following the referendum, not lessened and I know I'm not the only one.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I can't believe you are actually blaming those who did NOT vote leave for the plight of EU citizens in the UK.
> 
> I'm shocked at your startling allegation. I wouldn't even believe the pro Brexit press would sink that far!
> 
> And you're very wrong to suggest pro EU supporters are now backing Brexit.
> 
> And you suggest I personally contributed to the success of the leave campaign? Where on earth did you get that from?
> 
> First of all I voted for Ed Miliband in 2015. Mr Milliband ruled out an EU referendum if he won.
> 
> My conscience is clear. I was positively against a referendum as I knew the popular press would back leave. From past experience they usually get their way (not quite as much in the last General Election).
> 
> I have always been solidly pro EU. If anything my support for the EU has grown in the months following the referendum, not lessened and I know I'm not the only one.


No press @KittenKong. Pure hard FACTS. Do your research instead of reading the Sun.



> And you suggest I personally contributed to the success of the leave campaign? Where on earth did you get that from?


Not you personally (as I know you are a hard remainer) but your fellow leave supporters (again of course not on here) who said the next day they wanted to retract their voted because they voted leave as a joke etc.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> James Dyson is pretty upbeat as well:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *DYSON: NO DEAL BREXIT WON'T HURT UK*
> _Dyson: I think Britain is putting forward very positive suggestions and they're not being reciprocated by the other side. But that doesn't particularly surprise me and I suspect that we'll have to leave without a deal and that we'll have to trade under WTO regulations which frankly are going to hurt the Europeans more than they hurt the British. _
> 
> _BBC: Would they not hurt your business?_
> 
> _Dyson: Not at all actually, we already pay the WTO tariff into Europe and it hasn't hurt us at all… It's quite wrong to call it a single market. It's a series of different markets with different languages, different marketing required and different laws, and in our case different plugs and different boxes. So we don't view it as a single market, it's actually a very highly complex and broken up market… The rest of the world is growing at a far greater rate than Europe so the opportunity is to export to the rest of the world and to capitalise on that._


Did you not know about the massive grudge James Dyson has against the EU? He's another who only cares about money. I have always had a dyson hoover, but would never buy another. I'd rather pick the bits up by hand (including the husky fur) lol


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Why not? 16 Months we have had to listen to you guys finger pointing in the knowledge you voted irreseponsibly (not you personally but leave supporters in general).
> *FACTS are hard to swollow aren't they when they are true.*
> Your own side helped push the leave voters to win.
> 
> So please give it a rest.


You can say that again


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> encourage them to have a positive view of Leaving,


Nothing on God's earth will encourage them to have a positive view of anything other than their own opinions.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You can say that again


Not your assumptions and facts that change all the time. But my source of facts that have happened and don't change, these are hard cold facts because the event has already happened.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> dyson hoover


A Dyson vacuum cleaner . . . Hoover is a totally different make.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Did you not know about the massive grudge James Dyson has against the EU? He's another who only cares about money. I have always had a dyson hoover, but would never buy another. I'd rather pick the bits up by hand lol


I don't use Dyson hoovers nowadays because the ones I have had in the past fell to bits and they are expensive.

Hoover is a much more reliable make.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> A Dyson vacuum cleaner . . . Hoover is a totally different make.


Us commoners up't north tend to call all brands hoovers


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 325091


I am solid Brexiteer with a big smile on my face and isn't affraid of speaking about it if asked to.

The only hostility I have personally encountered for 16 months is on here.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Us commoners up't north tend to call all brands hoovers


Here is one of the Hoover range vaccum cleaners.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Us commoners up't north tend to call all brands hoovers


'Appen you do an' all. There is a vacuum cleaner called a Goblin too (true) and believe it or not, it's a member of the forum.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> 'Appen you do an' all. There is a vacuum cleaner called a Goblin too (true) and believe it or not, it's a member of the forum.


What these you mean


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> What these you mean


Yes, that's him!! Is that his new avatar?


----------



## Elles

Brexit is going fine. Leaving was the right thing to do. I already linked to a remainer who is ashamed of his fellow Remainers attitude. Some of the parodies are disgusting, like saying someone shouldn't have voted if they were older and died a few days later. Someone voting for the future, their children and children's children. The future is even more important to them than to a 20 year old who's me, me, me and I want it now. 

People are behaving as though the Eu is a religion.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> People are behaving as though the Eu is a religion.


:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> *Brexit is going fine. Leaving was the right thing to do*. I already linked to a remainer who is ashamed of his fellow Remainers attitude. Some of the parodies are disgusting, like saying someone shouldn't have voted if they were older and died a few days later. Someone voting for the future, their children and children's children. The future is even more important to them than to a 20 year old who's me, me, me and I want it now.
> 
> People are behaving as though the Eu is a religion.


You must surely have something new & concrete to support your assertion because the overwhelming evidence suggests the exact opposite.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You must surely have something new & concrete to support your assertion because the overwhelming evidence suggests the exact opposite.


Of course Brexit is going fine. We are leaving the EU aren't we? I agree with @Elles that leaving was the right thing to do. Just listen to power hungry Junker.


----------



## noushka05

This is what brexit has done to our young. What have we done?

*Young people fear for futures in Brexit Britain, says study*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41165927


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> This is what brexit has done to our young. What have we done?
> 
> *Young people fear for futures in Brexit Britain, says study*
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41165927


.


----------



## Elles

Stop reading the interpretations of the bad news press and the anti Tory tweets and you'll see we're just fine and it's business as usual. I would like them to get with making concrete decisions on people, outside of what's eventually decided on trade, but that's politicians for you. In the end, they're all politicians.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Stop reading the interpretations of the bad news press and the anti Tory tweets and you'll see we're just fine and it's business as usual. I would like them to get with making concrete decisions on people, outside of what's eventually decided on trade, but that's politicians for you. In the end, they're all politicians.


I will just like your responses from now on as you word things perfectly and I can't compete.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Of course Brexit is going fine. We are leaving the EU aren't we? I agree with @Elles that leaving was the right thing to do. Just listen to power hungry Junker.


Robert Peston's response to the monstrosity below.


*Goodbye democracy*


*Paul Waugh*‏Verified [email protected]*paulwaugh* Sep 13
_
V signif. Tory sources say their MPs will not be expected to vote on ANY Opp Day debates for rest of Parliament._









*MPs Agree To Give NHS A Fair Payrise As May Ducks Vote*

DUP had signalled they would back labour...

.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> You voted for it so have the balls to own it. Remainers like me listened to the experts, we have nothing to reproach ourselves for.


I voted to leave my ickle ferret loving friend, my hands still up and its staying up xxxx


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Us commoners up't north tend to call all brands hoovers


Us in the midlands do too.

And we do the hoovering.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> You trust posts on twitter, facebook, newspapers etc.
> 
> I trust the only expert I know. Me. I didn't need anyone to influence me on the way I voted so my vote was always going to be leave regardless.


Me too comrade and id do it all over again.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Did you not know about the massive grudge James Dyson has against the EU? He's another who only cares about money. I have always had a dyson hoover, but would never buy another. I'd rather pick the bits up by hand (including the husky fur) lol


Be like me, dig out your broomstick.

Kind to the environment too xx


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> This is what brexit has done to our young. What have we done?
> 
> *Young people fear for futures in Brexit Britain, says study*
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41165927


Well they only have themselves to blame really:

"Many of those interviewed were still "angry and emotional" about last year's vote to leave the EU but the report notes that, while 69% of young people who voted were in favour of remaining, *about half did not vote*."

If they can't be arsed to be arsed about their own future, why should I be?


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> :Hilarious


Think its a cult
You know one of them sorta institution thingymajigs that brain wash you.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Well they only have themselves to blame really:
> 
> "Many of those interviewed were still "angry and emotional" about last year's vote to leave the EU but the report notes that, while 69% of young people who voted were in favour of remaining, *about half did not vote*."
> 
> If they can't be arsed to be arsed about their own future, why should I be?


16 & 17 year olds where shut out of the vote - even though the consequences of brexit will affect them most of all.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> What these you mean
> View attachment 325094
> 
> View attachment 325095


Dont think they are very good though, didnt used to have much gumption at all, do they still make them and what are their reviews like?


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> 16 & 17 year olds where shut out of the vote - even though the consequences of brexit will affect them most of all.


Too young to vote, too easily influenced too, imo anyway.
There are always exceptions but as a whole.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> 16 & 17 year olds where shut out of the vote - even though the consequences of brexit will affect them most of all.


They were interviewing 18-30 year olds. Half of whom didn't vote.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Stop reading the interpretations of the bad news press and the anti Tory tweets and you'll see we're just fine and it's business as usual. I would like them to get with making concrete decisions on people, outside of what's eventually decided on trade, but that's politicians for you. In the end, they're all politicians.


Is this aimed at me? I look at trusted sources for my information thanks. Where are you getting yours from? - how can you just 'know' its going to be fine Elles? Please name the respected academics & public figures who support brexit? And you can check out the voting histories of MPs to see that not all politicians are the same .


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> I listened to experts I trust - green NGOs, the Green Party, environmentalists. I listened to well respected academics & trusted public figures. Who did you listen to SWF? Your gut feeling?


I did that once, listened to the experts, grand national 1965. That went boobs up too.

Ok I dont bet on the nationalxx


----------



## 1290423

MilleD said:


> They were interviewing 18-30 year olds. Half of whom didn't vote.


Tbh apart from once I think I was in my thirties before I started voting religiously.


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> This is what brexit has done to our young. What have we done?
> 
> *Young people fear for futures in Brexit Britain, says study*
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41165927[/QUOTE]
> 
> The young fear the future because people like you keep going on about doom and gloom
> This country is fine and will be even better when you and the likes of you wake up to reality
> Not that that will ever happen, you enjoy trying to scare people too much
> 
> Not sure what happened there, will try again


----------



## MilleD

DT said:


> Tbh apart from once I think I was in my thirties before I started voting religiously.


But this was a (probably) once in a lifetime thing. Would you not have voted for that when you were 18?


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Too young to vote, too easily influenced too, imo anyway.
> There are always exceptions but as a whole.


They were allowed to vote in the Scottish referendum. From my own experience the younger generation are surprisingly well informed. This is going to affect their future far more then is will affect the older generation who turned out in their droves.



MilleD said:


> They were interviewing 18-30 year olds. Half of whom didn't vote.


Then maybe we need a second referendum lol


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Is this aimed at me? I look at trusted sources for my information thanks. Where are you getting yours from? - how can you just 'know' its going to be fine Elles? Please name the respected academics & public figures who support brexit? And you can check out the voting histories of MPs to see that not all politicians are the same .


Dont worry noush, it will all come out in the wash.
And you are right, not all MPS are the same duh! Some are male some female


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> 16 & 17 year olds where shut out of the vote - even though the consequences of brexit will affect them most of all.


Because in the UK you have to be 18 to legally vote. You can register to vote at the age of 16 and 17 but cannot vote until you are 18. That is why they couldn't vote.
http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/elections/register/

They weren't shut out from voting at all. This is just remainer waffle.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Then maybe we need a second referendum lol


Maybe we do


----------



## noushka05

Its because they are informed Bisbow. My kids & their friends know far more about climate change for example, then many older people I know.


----------



## rona

Just about the same age as I was when I was forced to join the monstrous institution with no say


----------



## Bisbow

Not sure what happened there so I will try again

The young are scared because you lot keep spouting gloom and doom
They will all be fine as this country will do fine out of the EU
Perhaps one day you will realise it but I don't think so because you all enjoy trying to scare people into your thinking

I have news for you
IT WON'T WORK


----------



## stockwellcat.

The reason why they set the voting age at 18 in the UK is because you are legally classed as an adult at 18 although I think it should be set at 21.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Bisbow said:


> Not sure what happened there so I will try again
> 
> The young are scared because you lot keep spouting gloom and doom
> They will all be fine as this country will do fine out of the EU
> Perhaps one day you will realise it but I don't think so because you all enjoy trying to scare people into your thinking
> 
> I have news for you
> IT WON'T WORK


Totally agree with you there.


----------



## Elles

The NHS pay has nothing to do with the Eu or Brexit.

I'm not getting drawn into a debate based on prejudice and ageism.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Its because they are informed Bisbow. My kids & their friends know far more about climate change for example, then many older people I know.


Yeah, mine know more about percy filth then I do  dont make em more responsible though xxx


----------



## 1290423

MilleD said:


> But this was a (probably) once in a lifetime thing. Would you not have voted for that when you were 18?


Well I didnt vote to go in. NO


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Be like me, dig out your broomstick.
> 
> Kind to the environment too xx


Found it!


----------



## Bisbow

I am going away for the weekend so I will not be around to answer any of your insults about my posts

Enjoy yourselves while I am gone


----------



## 1290423

And for those of you who don't know who percy filth is, google it


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Not sure what happened there so I will try again
> 
> The young are scared because you lot keep spouting gloom and doom
> They will all be fine as this country will do fine out of the EU
> Perhaps one day you will realise it but I don't think so because you all enjoy trying to scare people into your thinking
> 
> I have news for you
> IT WON'T WORK


No its because they are evaluating the pros vs the cons.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Found it!


Certainly cuts down on emissions x


----------



## stockwellcat.

Bisbow said:


> I am going away for the weekend so I will not be around to answer any of your insults about my posts
> 
> Enjoy yourselves while I am gone


Me to.
I am going away tomorrow and cannot wait.


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> I am going away for the weekend so I will not be around to answer any of your insults about my posts
> 
> Enjoy yourselves while I am gone


You too are you off to the EU by any chance


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Me to.
> I am going away tomorrow and cannot wait.


Make sure you come back, and try and get wifi wherever you are, you may be needed


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> You too *are you off to the EU* by any chance


I am yes (The UK is still in the club at the moment). Oh you mean the continent. No in that respect. 
I am off to Lancaster in a caravan with my cat for 10 days. All packed and ready to go. First class train tickets all the way there and back again, so nice and quiet carriage with freebie snacks and drink. £38 each way. Tickets booked back in June.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> I am yes.
> I am off to Lancaster in a caravan with my cat for 10 days. All packed and ready to go. First class train tickets all the way there and back again, so nice and quiet carriage with freebie snacks and drink. £38 each way. Tickets booked back in June.


Oh nice, and a bargain for first class, I always used to book early and look for the off peak first class, do you know it often works out cheap then standard, and you get wine, I was amazed
Who do you use


----------



## Bisbow

We are off to Paws in the Park with like minded doggy friends with not a word about the EU or the referendum uttered


----------



## rona

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/this-eu-referendum-campaign-was-much-better-than-the-1975-one/

Voting Remain was followed by, in short order, the 1976 sterling crisis; Denis Healey turning around his car at Heathrow to respond to it; Jim Callaghan's formal embrace of monetarism (three years before Mrs Thatcher's); and the IMF granting Britain a loan of £3.9 billion on condition that the Labour government cut spending by £2.5 billion. (It seemed a lot of money then.) The inflation and currency crises rumbled on until the first Thatcher administration seriously tackled them.

Nor did Europe contribute much to solving our industrial and economic crises. The main argument for EEC entry in 1976 was that Britain would benefit from the 'cold bath of EU competition' that had lifted the growth and living standards of Germany, Italy and France.

Except that it hadn't. Their higher growth rates in the previous 20 years were the result of large numbers of people leaving the country-side for cities. As the world's first industrial country, Britain had already had this growth spurt. And as if to underline the argument, EU countries promptly stopped growing too.

Besides, Britain's anaemic growth rate had been caused by restrictive labour practices fuelled by unions' power and legal privileges. Their economic impact became both more powerful and more visible in the four years following the referendum.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> I am yes (The UK is still in the club at the moment). Oh you mean the continent. No in that respect.
> I am off to Lancaster in a caravan with my cat for 10 days. All packed and ready to go. First class train tickets all the way there and back again, so nice and quiet carriage with freebie snacks and drink. £38 each way. Tickets booked back in June.


Blackpool ish, lytham st annes ish, lytham ish, give us a clue


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Oh nice, and a bargain for first class, I always used to book early and look for the off peak first class, do you know it often works out cheap then standard, and you get wine, I was amazed
> Who do you use


I compare prices on Virgin Trains and Trainline when heading north. Southwest Trains, Trainline and First Great Western when staying down south.

Virgin do the route from Euston to Lancaster. If there's wine onboard they better hide it


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Blackpool ish, lytham st annes ish, lytham ish, give us a clue


Morecambe.
£1.60 a pint there. Well cheap compared to London.


----------



## 1290423

I travelled early evening some time back now, id booked first and already had a cappuccino at the station it was a warm day and I was really thirsty so cant think why I had that, normally would have had a coffee but fancied a cold drink, when I ask what they had cold there was no competition once he mentioned wine, cant think why though as I was thirsty and it just made me worse. I assumed they all served wine?


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Morecambe.
> £1.60 a pint there. Well cheap compared to London.


Too right it is, other half drinks real ale when he drinks, thats normally around £4. But we have cheap bars bitter larger etc just over two quid so £1.60 is well cheap.


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Morecambe.
> £1.60 a pint there. Well cheap compared to London.


A friend posted on FB last night that his flight from Stockholm was delayed, so he wandered off to get a beer. £14!


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> A friend posted on FB last night that his flight from Stockholm was delayed, so he wandered off to get a beer. £14!


Just wow! Tell your friend if they get delayed again to make sure it's in Lancashire


----------



## stockwellcat.

If you remember I said I was looking to move closer to my dad after what happened earlier this year. Well I have my eye on a lovely double unit mobile home on the site my dad has his static caravan on and I am seriously considering buying it. It costs alot less than a house to buy.


----------



## Elles

Who do you think runs the institutions the young are supposedly researching, who are the scientists and experts on climate change who are doing the educating? Terrible ageism. 

If the young had voted, who's to say they would all have voted Remain anyway. Pollsters were were wrong then, they've been wrong since and they aren't necessarily right now. People are renowned for keeping their opinions private when voicing them could lead to abuse. Peer pressure is also very real.

Prejudice against people based on their age, young or old, is as bad and unacceptable as any other prejudice. I'm actually quite sad, even angered to be reading it. 

If I didn't have to wait for the post, I'd leave now, go hug my horse and go for a ride. And remember all the old dead people who gave us the freedom to vote.


----------



## MiffyMoo

DT said:


> Just wow! Tell your friend if they get delayed again to make sure it's in Lancashire


That little know Morecombe International?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> If the young had voted, who's to say they would all have voted Remain anyway.


Those that did vote who were 18 to 25 voted to leave if I remember rightly and came forward on the news to let us know this because at the time remainers where blaming the older generation for ruining the youngsters future.


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Those that did vote who were 18 to 25 voted to leave if I remember rightly and came forward on the news to let us know this because at the time remainers where blaming the older generation for ruining the youngsters future.


I think it's really difficult to know how it went. I've just done a quick search and it does seem that the majority voted to stay, but that's just by polls done. I kind of lost faith in polls after the 2015 election, but I think it does give an overall view that the majority of youngsters did want to remain


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> *about half did not vote*."


That's right; and not just the young ones . . . many were so cock-sure that Brexit didn't have a chance that they couldn't be arsed to vote either. I know several leavers who were out of the country on the day, but made sure their vote was included via postal votes.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Did you not know about the massive grudge James Dyson has against the EU? He's another who only cares about money. I have always had a dyson hoover, but would never buy another. I'd rather pick the bits up by hand (including the husky fur) lol


In the same sense I wonder how many will give up their Sky subscription when the Murdoch's gain supreme control?!


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> 16 & 17 year olds where shut out of the vote


They were not 'shut out'. They were simply under-age. You make it sound as tho' someone slammed the door in their faces.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> In the same sense I wonder how many will give up their Sky subscription when the Murdoch's gain supreme control?!


And dont forget virgin.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Please, please can I say something.
> 
> For nearly 16 months now the remainers have been saying the same thing thinking they know better than us leavers because they have a grudge against us. So lets get something clear right now WTO rules means we will be still trading with the EU if we do not get a deal with the EU (which is becoming more and more likely) whilst we strike new trade deals around the world. What is making me laugh in hysterics is one minute the remainers are saying that they respect the referendum result but are blatently lying because they haven't/don't. Then they try and belittle us leavers for making the decision that was made because on referendum voting day they didnt take the referendum seriously, over 25 thousand votes got rejected and the remainers that voted, voted leave as a joke and wanted to retract their vote the next day. Oh what else do we have to throw at them, perhaps the fact that we are leaving the EU one way or the other. Perhaps if you guys voted responsibly things would have been different and there was those that could not be bothered to vote. I myself now cannot wait to leave the EU after Junkers grand speech yesterday as it has shown the EU's true colours. So please for crickeys sake give it a rest. You guys acted irresponsibly on referendum voting day in the full knowledge that the vote was going to be honoured as Cameron promised it would be on TV and in the leaflets pushed through every households door across the UK. You know no better than we do except spectulation from people that claim they can see into the future and label themselves as experts when they don't know themselves as brexit hasn't happened yet. Now I will put my PF ear muffs back on :Headphone Look what your own side done before finger pointing.


So back to we won a non-binding vote. Don't believe in democracy which is an ongoing process as we won the vote. Don't like the fact that people are providing facts based on experts which show the best situation the UK will end up with will be worse than being in the EU. Unable to provide advantages to leaving which can't be pulled apart but hey we won the vote. Ignore the fact the government is making things even worse as they haven't had a plan from the start and are concentrating on trying to spin things as the referendum has shown, the "majority" will believe lies rather than look at the facts. Hey, ignore experts even though those same "experts" will be responsible for trying to minimise the damage brexit will cause. We don't trust them apparantly.

The only people acting irresponsibly are those who refuse to actually look at the facts, the experts and rely on wishful thinking rather than the reality of the situation.


----------



## Elles

So now we'll be condemned for watching Game of Thrones and Westworld on Sky Atlantic? I already don't support anything to do with Amazon, because I don't like their tactics. I'm sorry, but if people gave up everything that affected anything, they wouldn't be posting on the internet, because they wouldn't have access to it. Scroll to the end for the environmental message if you don't like placebo.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> If you remember I said I was looking to move closer to my dad after what happened earlier this year. Well I have my eye on a lovely double unit mobile home on the site my dad has his static caravan on and I am seriously considering buying it. It costs alot less than a house to buy.


Some of the statics are lovely , Ive been thinking of this too but Im worried about site fees and dogs not allowed .
The sites near us are too isolated , you need to have a car.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> So now we'll be condemned for watching Game of Thrones and Westworld on Sky Atlantic? I already don't support anything to do with Amazon, because I don't like their tactics. I'm sorry, but if people gave up everything that affected anything, they wouldn't be posting on the internet, because they wouldn't have access to it. Scroll to the end for the environmental message if you don't like placebo.


Well I don't think those remainders who like their drink for breakfast will be dishing weatherspoons elles, ours seems busier then ever.
That said I AM Dumping my virgin a count, perhaps because they are expensive and have just informed me of another rise.


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> So back to we won a non-binding vote. Don't believe in democracy which is an ongoing process as we won the vote. Don't like the fact that people are providing facts based on experts which show the best situation the UK will end up with will be worse than being in the EU. Unable to provide advantages to leaving which can't be pulled apart but hey we won the vote. Ignore the fact the government is making things even worse as they haven't had a plan from the start and are concentrating on trying to spin things as the referendum has shown, the "majority" will believe lies rather than look at the facts. Hey, ignore experts even though those same "experts" will be responsible for trying to minimise the damage brexit will cause. We don't trust them apparantly.
> 
> The only people acting irresponsibly are those who refuse to actually look at the facts, the experts and rely on wishful thinking rather than the reality of the situation.


You really do talk a lot of rubbish, don't you

Don't bother to answer because I won't be here to read it. We are off now


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> You really do talk a lot of rubbish, don't you
> 
> Don't bother to answer because I won't be here to read it. We are off now


Mielle and sebo come tops over goblin any day of the week


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> I AM Dumping my virgin a count, perhaps because they are expensive and have just informed me of another rise.


Virgin put mine up three times in six months so I dumped them too . . . then they spent six months trying to weasel money out of me that I didn't owe as I'd always paid a month in advance and had given them a month's notice. Schysters. What really annoyed me was that when my son moved house and was having broadband sorted, Virgin quoted him about £25 quid a month . . . he had much more than me, superfast this and supersonic that. I was paying them double for about half of what he was getting. As a new customer they entice you with super-low tariffs, then put the charges up for people who have been with them for ten years. Piss takers!


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> You really do talk a lot of rubbish, don't you
> 
> Don't bother to answer because I won't be here to read it. We are off now


Well that's the only reasoning you can come up with and you complain when your arguments are shown to be wishful thinking at best.



DT said:


> Mielle and sebo come tops over goblin any day of the week


Quite telling you don't use UK manufacturer's.. wait which company makes things in the UK, it's not Dysan, they use places like Maylasia.


----------



## Elles

Not forgetting that Remainers know that the Eu isn't perfect and wanted to stay in, because they hoped to influence it for the better and they wish for it to improve. 

It could get worse of course and reading the future plans the future could be interpreted as worse or better depending on your point of view. Whether we even could or would influence it for the better would have remained to be seen, but it's all moot now.

I wouldn't object to a second referendum, though I think it's pointless at this stage.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> I wouldn't object to a second referendum


Now there's a sobering thought: this God-forsaken thread would go on until 2050 if there was a second referendum. The usual suspects would still be bleating and whining and saying that nursery school children should be allowed the vote.


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> Some of the statics are lovely , Ive been thinking of this too but Im worried about site fees and dogs not allowed .
> The sites near us are too isolated , you need to have a car.


If you own the van as a whole there are many that allow dogs, can appeciate that if you are renting a van often pets are not allowed. Agree site fees do seem to be going up and up, but guess we would ha e to offset council tax water rates etc against it. Another concern is many sites do have an age restriction on statics, and some you have to vacate for at least one week per year, guess thats easily sorted you just go on holiday for a week.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> Now there's a sobering thought: this God-forsaken thread would go on until 2050 if there was a second referendum. *The usual suspects would still be bleating and whining and saying that nursery school children should be allowed the vote.*


And if leave won again.


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> Now there's a sobering thought: this God-forsaken thread would go on until 2050 if there was a second referendum. The usual suspects would still be bleating and whining and saying that nursery school children should be allowed the vote.


And expectant mothers would want two votes.


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> And expectant mothers would want two votes.


Three if they are expecting twins: be fair!


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Now there's a sobering thought: this God-forsaken thread would go on until 2050 if there was a second referendum. The usual suspects would still be bleating and whining and saying that nursery school children should be allowed the vote.


I reckon a few of us wouldn't be here then!

Not worth arguing about , Kim Jong Un's launched another rocket and there'll be a nuclear war and the end of the world.


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> Three if they are expecting twins: be fair!


Shuppup, don't get giving em ideas else they'll be wanting votes,for anyone resident in a cemetery plot


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Shuppup, don't get giving em ideas else they'll be wanting votes,for anyone resident in a cemetery plot


:Hilarious


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> I reckon a few of us wouldn't be here then!
> 
> Not worth arguing about , Kim Jong Un's launched another rocket and there'll be a nuclear war and the end of the world.


Would like to hope he could be disposed of in nano seconds


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> uppup, don't get giving em ideas else they'll be wanting votes,for anyone resident in a cemetery plot


What about ghosts; seems unfair you can't vote just because you're dead.


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> What about ghosts; seems unfair you can't vote just because you're dead.


Duh! We have stop somewhere! You,ll want out animals voting soon, and I wont even mention stuffed toys and barbie dolls


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Duh! We have stop somewhere! *You,ll want out animals voting soon*, and I wont even mention stuffed toys and barbie dolls


Oh yes. My cat would choose leave.


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> You,ll want out animals voting soon


I've cat aged 18; she's old enough.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> I've cat aged 18; she's old enough.


My cat is 48 years old in cat years (8 years old in human years). She is definitely old enough to vote in cat years


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> My cat is 48 years old in cat years (8 years old in human years). She is definitely old enough to vote in cat years


My teddy bears 62
Even teddies have rights you know


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> My teddy bears 62
> Even teddies have rights you know


Too right :Smuggrin :Hilarious


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> Now there's a sobering thought: this God-forsaken thread would go on until 2050 if there was a second referendum. The usual suspects would still be bleating and whining and saying that nursery school children should be allowed the vote.


What like Farage who stated before the result was known that it wasn't the end of the campaign to leave. Of course the answer is simple. Reasoned logic in advantages to leave but that's the problem isn't it which is why it reverts to "we won the opinion poll". Wait didn't someone recently mention they do not trust opinion polls.


----------



## 1290423

MilleD said:


> Us in the midlands do too.
> 
> And we do the hoovering.


Im more accustomed to hovering
And yes! That really is me!


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## 1290423

Isnt there a Swedish MP or MEP who says that the suggested 100 billion payout by us to the EU is Ludicrous and that the EU should be paying us for all we've contributed in the past, might be a,load of codswallop but sounds,good to me


----------



## 1290423

Opps, I just googled it, seems it was in the express, is that your normal source for quotes kittenkong or is it the dailyfail you prefer?


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> Wait didn't someone recently mention they do not trust opinion polls.


Yes, I think they did: because so many recently have been way out.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> What about ghosts; seems unfair you can't vote just because you're dead.


:Hilarious Thanks for the belly laugh , I needed one today


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> My teddy bears 62
> Even teddies have rights you know


:Hilarious
Your teddys older than my stuffed dog Dobbin. He's only 55.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> Your teddys older than my stuffed dog Dobbin rolleyes He's only 55.


He'll still be old enough to vote


----------



## Elles

There are a few 'good news' news articles on BBC news today. Even a remainer who warned of dire consequences if Leave won is now optimistic and talking of huge opportunities after Brexit. The pound is stronger, house prices are holding or rising. Private sector pay is rising. The public sector pay cap is on its way out. Morrisons profits are up. We haven't left yet of course and people and businesses are still concerned for Eu citizens living and working in the uk. That does seem to be the main concern now.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> . We haven't left yet of course and people and businesses are still concerned for Eu citizens living and working in the uk. That does seem to be the main concern now.


We have recently bought another flat to rent out, and we viewed one that had a sitting tenant who was polish and I have to admit that it did cross my mind that she might not be there post brexit.


----------



## kimthecat

Its really not right the way the Government are treating Eu citizens here. 
They are using them as a bargaining chip but I think this is counter productive . Its sad they feel they have to leave before anything is certain but of course uncertainty is worrying .


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> We have recently bought another flat to rent out, and we viewed one that had a sitting tenant who was polish and I have to admit that it did cross my mind that she might not be there post brexit.


My friend house shares with a young Polish couple. They aren't too worried they say. It might be that my area and community is generally welcoming though, so they haven't been subjected to any of the prejudice we hear of elsewhere.

People, the press and the government should realise that it wasn't just Remain voters who didn't want uncertainty for Eu citizens, many, if not most leave voters didn't either. Which makes the majority of the country in favour of a quick and positive result, not delay and quibbling over peoples' lives and livelihoods.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Wow just seen on Pound Sterling Live the pound seems to be recovering nicely against the Euro.

The other day it was £1 = €1.05 and now it is £1 = €1.14 (€1.1354 at the time of posting this thread).

And yes remainers that is good news.

Live rates at https://www.poundsterlinglive.com


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> Its really not right the way the Government are treating Eu citizens here.
> They are using them as a bargaining chip but I think this is counter productive . Its sad they feel they have to leave before anything is certain but of course uncertainty is worrying .[/QUOTE
> The eu are not using UK citizens living in the eu as bargaining chips then I take?


----------



## Elles

I'm not sure that the 1m Brits living abroad are much of a bargaining chip. It's the uk who use Eu citizens, the Eu can easily replace any Brits and the uk government (and businesses) are probably more concerned about people here, than they are people who left and can't vote. Whether they have to come back, or can stay where they are, it's no skin off the government's (or the Eu's) nose.

Given that big money and big business want to keep their Eu employees, the uk government will have to capitulate on their status eventually imo.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Well they only have themselves to blame really:
> 
> "Many of those interviewed were still "angry and emotional" about last year's vote to leave the EU but the report notes that, while 69% of young people who voted were in favour of remaining, *about half did not vote*."
> 
> If they can't be arsed to be arsed about their own future, why should I be?


Some were probably confused by the EU and European football held at the time!

Still it doesn't surprise me. Some are more interested in the new royal baby than their own future it seems.....


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Some were probably confused by the EU and European football held at the time!
> 
> Still it doesn't surprise me. Some are more interested in the new royal baby than their own future it seems.....


Is camilla having a new foal then?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Is camilla having a new foal then?


Aprently so.


----------



## stockwellcat.

All good news on the currency front the last few days.

*Vlieghe Ignites Pound Sterling Rally, GBP Breaks Fresh Highs vs US Dollar and Euro on Global Exchange Rate Markets*

Modified: Friday, 15 September 2017 13:57
The Pound-to-Euro exchange rate is at 1.1378, having gone as high as 1.1396. The Pound-to-Dollar exchange rate is at 1.3593 having gone as high as 1.3615.










Here is the rest of the article: https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/7562-vlieghe-sparks-fresh-jump-in-sterling

It is excellent news the pound is starting to recover.


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> Is this aimed at me? I look at trusted sources for my information thanks. Where are you getting yours from? - how can you just 'know' its going to be fine Elles? Please name the respected academics & public figures who support brexit? And you can check out the voting histories of MPs to see that not all politicians are the same .





DT said:


> Dont worry noush, it will all come out in the wash.
> And you are right, not all MPS are the same duh! Some are male some female


Finally DT came up with facts, some are indeed male and some female. Good for you. 



kimthecat said:


> Its really not right the way the Government are treating Eu citizens here.
> They are using them as a bargaining chip but I think this is counter productive . Its sad they feel they have to leave before anything is certain but of course uncertainty is worrying .


'

I agree, that is disgraceful and it is counter productive and sad.



stockwellcat. said:


> Wow just seen on Pound Sterling Live the pound seems to be recovering nicely against the Euro. The other day it was £1 = €1.05 and now it is £1 = €1.14 (€1.1354 at the time of posting this thread). And yes remainers that is good news. Live rates at https://www.poundsterlinglive.com


I´m glad that the currency rates seem to matter at last. Do you remember what was the rate before Brexit? Was a bit higher...

And another statisctics for you, which says that EU finances are improving (GDP growth), which means more jobs and more money for the goverment to spend on social security etc, (or what ever your goverment decides). The only country not improving was Britain, which had the lowest growth. I wonder why is that and what do you think of that? To me that is bad news only, and only to do with Brexit? I cannot think tha British society has changed that much that fast otherwise.

Here is the statistic and the link. Do you really think Brexit is better news than EU for you?

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/docume...P-EN.pdf/8321df8a-ba1b-433e-9cdc-bfd81e3f4a45


----------



## rona

MrsZee said:


> Here is the statistic and the link. Do you really think Brexit is better news than EU for you?


Oddly, other links give different statistics........are the EU statistics wrong?


----------



## Guest

Well, it would be easier to discuss them if you had links, which would actually show what they are based on etc. You know, the way EU statistics do, as it really easy to make statistics show whatever you want. The thing about EÙ statistics is that they are done in the same way every year, and e.g our growth was really low for a few years. And that really meant that we had cuts in everything and the unemployment was high. Now we are doing much better, so I can see that this statistics is true for Finland.

But the question was, what do you think of this, as that is a grim result for Brexit, if you actually believe it? No one can make you believe it, naturally. And maybe your unemployment has really gone down, maybe you have more money for NHS and social security etc?

So it would be interesting to see those figures. Naturally it would mean for the government that they would have a hard time explaining any cuts, if you are doing so well.


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> Oddly, other links give different statistics........are the EU statistics wrong?


Sorry, this was posted twice as I had problems with internet.

Well, it would be easier to discuss them if you had links, which would actually show what they are based on etc. You know, the way EU statistics do, as it really easy to make statistics show whatever you want. The thing about EÙ statistics is that they are done in the same way every year, and e.g our growth was really low for a few years. And that really meant that we had cuts in everything and the unemployment was high. Now we are doing much better, so I can see that this statistics is true for Finland.

But the question was, what do you think of this, as that is a grim result for Brexit, if you actually believe it? No one can make you believe it, naturally. And maybe your unemployment has really gone down, maybe you have more money for NHS and social security etc?

So it would be interesting to see those figures. Naturally it would mean for the government that they would have a hard time explaining any cuts, if you are doing so well.


----------



## rona

Just look at the world statistics that are not from the EU


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> Just look at the world statistics that are not from the EU


Could you say what you were looking, as the world is full of statistics? Most of them are not very reliable, though, as they are just used for any political agenda dishonest politicians want. EU statistics I trust, as they publish also bad news and reveal what they are based on.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## Elles

Juncker says that fewer migrants and refugees are dying trying to get to Europe and the Eu takes credit for the statistics.

In fact there are fewer migrants and refugees displaced and attempting to cross to Europe, but a greater percentage of those that do try are dying. There is still a migrant crisis and people are still dying. There's no credit to be had from those statistics.

People often manipulate statistics for their cause. They're usually a small part of an analysis and not meant to taken in isolation, or at face value. Correlation does not imply causation.

In your graph the difference between France, Italy and Sweden and the highest, Romania, is enormous. IT companies are doing well in Bucharest and the country is improving. What's France, Italy and Sweden's excuse?

Brexit can't be the cause of any slowing where there has been any, because we haven't done it yet. Fear of Brexit may have been a contributory factor, but it's picking up. A fair bit of good news on the political and business pages of BBC news today. I've already posted about some of them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Breaking News This Morning Remainers:*

*Boris Johnson: Yes, we will have £350m per week to spend on NHS after Brexit*

____________
Shock. Horror.

You have been slating us down claiming the leave side lied. Well look what Boris said above. No lies told then.

Full article here: http://news.sky.com/story/amp/boris...er-week-to-spend-on-nhs-after-brexit-11037713

It looks like your campaign against us leavers is slowly falling apart as it was based on the supposed lies the leave campaigners (which look like weren't lies after all) told and predictions from economists you chose to believe which have proven so far to be rubbish.

Now I am off this morning at 10:30am so will be off this topic from now as I am busy, busy, busy getting ready to get away from London for 10 days.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> *Breaking News This Morning Remainers:*
> 
> *Boris Johnson: Yes, we will have £350m per week to spend on NHS after Brexit*
> 
> ____________
> Shock. Horror. You have been slating us down claiming the leave side lied. Well look what Boris said above. No lies told then.
> 
> Full article here: http://news.sky.com/story/amp/boris...er-week-to-spend-on-nhs-after-brexit-11037713
> 
> It looks your campaign against us leavers is slowly falling apart as it was based on the supposed lies the leave campaigners (which look like weren't lies after all) told and predictions from economists you chose to believe which have proven so far to be rubbished.
> 
> Noe I am off this morning at 10:30am so will be off this topic from now as I am busy, busy, busy getting ready to get away from London for 10 days.


Words are merely words and out of the mouths of politicians, they're usually lies.

I'll believe it when I see the proof of it for myself, and not until.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Is that the wording for the remainers new campaign against us leavers :Hilarious:Hilarious

:Headphone These will become very useful against remain supporters  :Headphone

Remainers can't admit there campaign is slowly failing.

Now I am signing out and banning myself from PF for 10 days. Looking forward to my holiday today.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> Is that the wording for the remainers new campaign against us leavers :Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> :Headphone These will become very useful against remain supporters
> 
> Remainers can't admit there campaign is slowly failing.


The only time a politician is anywhere near being remotely honest, is when he or she is calling a member of the opposition names.

And again, for the record, I'm neither a remainer or a leaver. When will you finally accept that?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> *for the record, I'm neither a remainer or a leaver*.


Oh I know that. I am not totally stupid, just yet, quiet the opposite actually (very intelligent).

I wad just responding as if a remainer was reading it as it is there baby this thread.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat. said:


> Now I am off this morning at 10:30am so will be off this topic from now as I am busy, busy, busy getting ready to get away from London for 10 days.


Enjoy your holiday SWC.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> *Breaking News This Morning Remainers:*
> 
> *Boris Johnson: Yes, we will have £350m per week to spend on NHS after Brexit*
> 
> ____________
> Shock. Horror.
> 
> You have been slating us down claiming the leave side lied. Well look what Boris said above. No lies told then.
> 
> Full article here: http://news.sky.com/story/amp/boris...er-week-to-spend-on-nhs-after-brexit-11037713
> 
> It looks like your campaign against us leavers is slowly falling apart as it was based on the supposed lies the leave campaigners (which look like weren't lies after all) told and predictions from economists you chose to believe which have proven so far to be rubbish.
> 
> Now I am off this morning at 10:30am so will be off this topic from now as I am busy, busy, busy getting ready to get away from London for 10 days.


Stay safe and enjoy your break


----------



## 1290423

And boris also said

The Foreign Secretary set out a detailed vision for Brexit in a 4,000 word Telegraph article, insisting that a UK free from the EU could "be the greatest country on earth

OK SAYing it doesn't make it true, but its nice that some do believe it to be so.

And as for some of the remainders their attitudes astound me it is as it they are willing brexit to be a big enormous fail. Or maybe they just don't like egg

But lets not get to complacent there's a long way to go yet and it ain't over until the fat lady sings. 

You n I just need to decide what the song will be stockwell


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> You n I just need to decide what the song will be stockwell


I suppose a modern beefed up version of Rule Britannia would be out of the question


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> I suppose a modern beefed up version of Rule Britannia would be out of the question


I was thinking more "another on bites,the dust"


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> I suppose a modern beefed up version of Rule Britannia would be out of the question


Oi, Stocky, piss off before you miss your train.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> Oi, Stocky, piss off before you miss your train.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

@stockwellcat.: Enjoy your holiday and keep safe.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> *Breaking News This Morning Remainers:*
> 
> *Boris Johnson: Yes, we will have £350m per week to spend on NHS after Brexit*
> 
> ____________
> Shock. Horror.
> 
> You have been slating us down claiming the leave side lied. Well look what Boris said above. No lies told then.
> 
> Full article here: http://news.sky.com/story/amp/boris...er-week-to-spend-on-nhs-after-brexit-11037713
> 
> It looks like your campaign against us leavers is slowly falling apart as it was based on the supposed lies the leave campaigners (which look like weren't lies after all) told and predictions from economists you chose to believe which have proven so far to be rubbish.
> 
> Now I am off this morning at 10:30am so will be off this topic from now as I am busy, busy, busy getting ready to get away from London for 10 days.


Once a liar always a liar. The Sun, which after all is closely related to Sky News published an article about Bojo and Gove WILL honour their pledges in the leave campaign. I guess many believed that too.

It depends what you read or look at. Sky News is Murdoch controlled and will be banging the drum for Brexit as do other pro Brexit causes.

My sources say the exact opposite, admittedly are pro EU ones you'd expect from myself.

Still, nothing about the future of citizens living and working in the UK.
Perhaps you believe Johnson's last minute pledge to offer all "immigrants" including "illegal" ones amnesty to stay in the UK. That was extraordinary following a deeply xenophobic campaign. Incidentally even I believe they shouldn't be an amnesty for everyone in the UK illegally.

Quite frankly the Tories and the NHS don't mix, perhaps you're too young to remember Thatcher's government.
It is NOT and NEVER will be safe under a far right Tory government.

Perhaps they'll spend £350m on advertising a new health caring "business" as they did when they privatised Gas, Electricity and Water though I don't know how much the government paid in those campaigns......

Oh yes, enjoy your holiday.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> Once a liar always a liar. The Sun, which after all is closely related to Sky News published an article about Bojo and Gove WILL honour their pledges in the leave campaign. I guess many believed that too.
> 
> It depends what you read or look at. Sky News is Murdoch controlled and will be banging the drum for Brexit as do other pro Brexit causes.
> 
> My sources say the exact opposite, admittedly are pro EU ones you'd expect from myself.
> 
> Still, nothing about the future of citizens living and working in the UK.
> Perhaps you believe Johnson's last minute pledge to offer all "immigrants" including "illegal" ones amnesty to stay in the UK. That was extraordinary following a deeply xenophobic campaign.
> 
> Quite frankly the Tories and the NHS don't mix, perhaps you're too young to remember Thatcher's government.
> It is NOT and NEVER will be safe under a far right Tory government.
> 
> Perhaps they'll spend £350m on advertising a new health caring "business" as they did when they privatised Gas, Electricity and Water though I don't know how much the government paid in those campaigns......
> 
> Oh yes, enjoy your holiday.


I don't believe a thing that BoJo says, but I'm now desperate to know who your "sources" are. Are you a Mirror journalist and have tons of Deep Throats (snigger) in Westminster? Or is it Dave down the pub?


----------



## Elles

Read the article. He says it would be a fine thing if most of that money (saved from leaving the Eu) was spent on the NHS. He then talks about modernising and buying new equipment. (To make it more attractive to private investors?)

So, exactly as before, he's saying we could save a lot of money when we leave the Eu and it would be nice if some was spent on the NHS. He didn't lie before and he isn't lying now.

Because he isn't actually saying or promising anything. :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Read the article. He says it would be a fine thing if most of that money (saved from leaving the Eu) was spent on the NHS. He then talks about modernising and buying new equipment. (To make it more attractive to private investors?)
> 
> So, exactly as before, he's saying we could save a lot of money when we leave the Eu and it would be nice if some was spent on the NHS. He didn't lie before and he isn't lying now.
> 
> Because he isn't actually saying or promising anything. :Hilarious


Is this clear enough if what was written on the bus wasn't?









I'm under the impression he's putting himself forward for Tory leadership again.

I guess you are right that some investment will be given to the NHS in order to make it more attractive to private investors. Nothing new in that and has nothing to do with leaving nor staying part of the EU but no doubt the pro Brexit media will have people believing that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MiffyMoo said:


> I don't believe a thing that BoJo says, but I'm now desperate to know who your "sources" are. Are you a Mirror journalist and have tons of Deep Throats (snigger) in Westminster? Or is it Dave down the pub?


Express I think it is or the Daily Record (which seems to be scratched). Oh I mean twitter and facebook are now remainers reliable source of information these days. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

I could say to my husband 'let's get a new car for Christmas'. You'd think I was promising to get a new car? Caroline Lucas could say ' let's ban fracking in England'. She could if she was pm. Neither I, nor Boris, nor Caroline have control over finances, or over what the government do or don't do. 

Any of us could say 'let's do..' and the answer could be 'no'. Boris could be pushing the government and lobbying for more money for the NHS. We could join his cause. Doesn't mean we'd get it, or that he's promising anything.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> I could say to my husband 'let's get a new car for Christmas'. You'd think I was promising to get a new car? Caroline Lucas could say ' let's ban fracking in England'. She could if she was pm. Neither I, nor Boris, nor Caroline have control over finances, or over what the government do or don't do.
> 
> Any of us could say 'let's do..' and the answer could be 'no'. Boris could be pushing the government and lobbying for more money for the NHS. We could join his cause. Doesn't mean we'd get it, or that he's promising anything.


You're absolutely right, but politicians need to be careful with their words. Frankly he shouldn't be saying cr*p like that, just as much as Corbyn shouldn't have promised hard Brexit if he wasn't going to do it. I'm actually surprised that he has brought that up again; surely he knows that that is the basis of the Remainer argument.


----------



## Elles

MiffyMoo said:


> You're absolutely right, but politicians need to be careful with their words. Frankly he shouldn't be saying cr*p like that, just as much as Corbyn shouldn't have promised hard Brexit if he wasn't going to do it. I'm actually surprised that he has brought that up again; surely he knows that that is the basis of the Remainer argument.


Trouble is politicians are careful with their words. That's why we have to read between the lines. 

It doesn't help when clearly Boris hasn't promised anything, but newspapers and other politicians report that he has.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> It doesn't help when clearly Boris hasn't promised anything, but newspapers and other politicians report that he has.


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> Just look at the world statistics that are not from the EU


I am still waiting for some statistics or facts from the world you are referring to, Though as this is about EU and Brexit, the statistics about e.g.Africa might not be as relevant.



Elles said:


> Juncker says that fewer migrants and refugees are dying trying to get to Europe and the Eu takes credit for the statistics.
> 
> In fact there are fewer migrants and refugees displaced and attempting to cross to Europe, but a greater percentage of those that do try are dying. There is still a migrant crisis and people are still dying. There's no credit to be had from those statistics.
> 
> People often manipulate statistics for their cause. They're usually a small part of an analysis and not meant to taken in isolation, or at face value. Correlation does not imply causation.
> 
> In your graph the difference between France, Italy and Sweden and the highest, Romania, is enormous. IT companies are doing well in Bucharest and the country is improving. What's France, Italy and Sweden's excuse?
> 
> Brexit can't be the cause of any slowing where there has been any, because we haven't done it yet. Fear of Brexit may have been a contributory factor, but it's picking up. A fair bit of good news on the political and business pages of BBC news today. I've already posted about some of them.


The statistics was about GBDs, not about the number if immigration. No one should die when immigrating and it is a shame for all rich coutries that we allow this to happen, I agree. But wasn´t one of the main reason for Brexit that UK wants to cut down immigration? So what do you think, should UK take more immigrants, about the same or less? These people come from Africa, Syria, Irak etc, not from EU, who are dying. The only link between this statisctics is that there is less immigration from poorer EU countries to other EU countries, as their financies are improving. But these people are not those, who die

You asked "What's France, Italy and Sweden's excuse?" . This is about growth, not about the amount of GDP. Excuse is a word I´d not use, but IMO e.g Swedish level is simply the fact that their finances never slumped in the same way e.g. ours did, it´s pretty steady going all the time. Italy - well, I´m sure you have read about their political crises and their difficulties to follow the recommened policies. Berlusconi did no favours to Italy. Without political stability and reforms Italy will stay financially weak a long time. France also had problems making reforms, and it shows.

Still, the current positive financial development is affecting just about all EU countries and the conclusion is that the EU policy works. Naturally it is up to each country to follow it or ignore it, but the results are good, so most choose to follow it.

IMO UK poor results is due Brexit and the incompetent government. Brexit has created so much uncertainty for businesses and people alike, and peculations and insecurity does not create the trust companies need for investments, and it shows.

Had May & co been competent and come up with proper plans how to execute Brexit, the affect would have bee less drastic. But we all know that there is no plan, that the negotiators don´t even agree what they are negotiating on, they are rude and don´t seem to even understand what will be affects of no deal- Brexit. The govermment itself is very weak and not competent, e.g. Boris is laughed at, and considered to be an idiot. Together that combination is lethal and unfortunately British people and companies will pay the price.



stockwellcat. said:


> *Breaking News This Morning Remainers:*
> 
> *Boris Johnson: Yes, we will have £350m per week to spend on NHS after Brexit*
> 
> ____________
> Shock. Horror.
> 
> You have been slating us down claiming the leave side lied. Well look what Boris said above. No lies told then.
> 
> Full article here: http://news.sky.com/story/amp/boris...er-week-to-spend-on-nhs-after-brexit-11037713
> 
> It looks like your campaign against us leavers is slowly falling apart as it was based on the supposed lies the leave campaigners (which look like weren't lies after all) told and predictions from economists you chose to believe which have proven so far to be rubbish.


Are you really saying that Boris´wishful thinking (which even his own party members openly admit just isn´t true) means that the "facts/ lies" leavers campaigners used suddenly became true? Or are you referring some other facts/lies? Or are you saying that as UK will need to spend money on NHS in the future too, the leave campaign was right? Sorry, I just don´t understand this, despite that I read the article.

But what did you think of the financial situation in UK? How is your unemployment? How is your budjet? Do you need to make cuts or do you get more money for social security, police, fire stations etc ? Do teachers/nurses/ police get raises? Those are the affects that will be there visible for all, no matter what May or EU says. What about prices? Or schools? Class sizes etc, etc. What is happening? Do May and Boris deliver or con you?


----------



## Elles

The pay cap on the public sector has started to be removed, beginning with the police and prison staff. The pound is getting stronger again. A Remainer in the top 100 who before the referendum warned of the dire consequences of the Brexit vote, is now optimistic and saying that he sees great opportunities after Brexit. Private sector pay is increasing. Unemployment is at an all time low. House prices are holding steady, or increasing. Companies are reporting increased profits, even in the food sector. Exports are up. 

We haven't left yet, but we're not doing badly out of Brexit and government policy is a separate thing to the Eu. 

Negotiations do need to get on with sorting out the position of Eu nationals living and working in the uk. It seems to be the main concern now.

My personal views on refugees and migrants is that the West and the Eu contributed to their plight, so should offer a solution, not just shut them out. Assistance, integration, education and the help they need, whether to start again in Europe, or temporarily until they can return home if they wish. But that's my personal view. My point was about how statistics can be manipulated though.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Express I think it is or the Daily Record (which seems to be scratched). Oh I mean twitter and facebook are now remainers reliable source of information these days. :Hilarious


Don't be daft, you know all reliable information comes off google


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> The pay cap on the public sector has started to be removed, beginning with the police and prison staff. The pound is getting stronger again. A Remainer in the top 100 who before the referendum warned of the dire consequences of the Brexit vote, is now optimistic and saying that he sees great opportunities after Brexit. Private sector pay is increasing. Unemployment is at an all time low. House prices are holding steady, or increasing. Companies are reporting increased profits, even in the food sector. Exports are up.
> 
> We haven't left yet, but we're not doing badly out of Brexit and government policy is a separate thing to the Eu.
> 
> Negotiations do need to get on with sorting out the position of Eu nationals living and working in the uk. It seems to be the main concern now.
> 
> My personal views on refugees and migrants is that the West and the Eu contributed to their plight, so should offer a solution, not just shut them out. Assistance, integration, education and the help they need, whether to start again in Europe, or temporarily until they can return home if they wish. But that's my personal view. My point was about how statistics can be manipulated though.


Statistics can indeed Be so easily manipulated, I agree with you totally. Our goverment tried to show earlier that we do so well, when in fact we didn´t just By changing the meaning of term "unemployed" . Do you know how you define that term? I found this and it suggests just like you said that statistics can be manipulated. Or have they Still, soon you should have much more money to spend on schools, NHS etc. shouldn´t you?

https://boingboing.net/2017/07/25/lies-damned-lies-and-employmen.html










This is a statistics in Finland, where you can see the numbers on disguised unemployment too. We had a long recession and finally 2017 things are looking much better, like in most EU countries.










ps. DT, Google on it´s own doesn´t provide any information, it just shows links and sites from various sources and depending on those sources and sites the information can be real or fake news.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> The pound is getting stronger again.


So why is that. Interest rate increase expected in the next few months according to the bank of england so people are speculating. Just tell me, what is the status of civilian debt in the UK since the referendum and what does a rise in interest mean to debt? What is causing the potential rise in the interest rate?



> We haven't left yet, but we're not doing badly out of Brexit and government policy is a separate thing to the Eu.


Always has been, we have kept sovereignty after all even in the EU. Shame the EU is used as a scapegoat for government policies. As for not doing badly out of brexit:







> Negotiations do need to get on with sorting out the position of Eu nationals living and working in the uk. It seems to be the main concern now.


Not simply the negotiations. The public need to be told the truth and the government transparant. Personally I think irish border is just as important as EU citizens, especially to those who live there. What about Gibraltar while we are at it.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Not sure what happened there so I will try again
> 
> The young are scared because you lot keep spouting gloom and doom
> They will all be fine as this country will do fine out of the EU
> Perhaps one day you will realise it but I don't think so because you all enjoy trying to scare people into your thinking
> 
> I have news for you
> IT WON'T WORK


They are scared because it limits their opportunites for one reason. Many youngsters (mine included) love the freedom of choice the EU gives them to live & work in Europe. Many of the younger generation are very outward looking Bisbow, they don't want the UK to become an inward looking country. My youngest made good friends with a Slovakian girl who worked at the company he works for - she sees no future here anymore & so shes looking to move to Germany. We have made 3 million people who called this country home feel unwanted. Its horrible.



Elles said:


> The NHS pay has nothing to do with the Eu or Brexit.
> 
> I'm not getting drawn into a debate based on prejudice and ageism.


You're missing the point Elles. Brexiters said they wanted parliamentary sovereignty but the tories have subverted democracy with their power grab - we have less democracy than ever before.



Elles said:


> Who do you think runs the institutions the young are supposedly researching, who are the scientists and experts on climate change who are doing the educating? Terrible ageism.
> 
> If the young had voted, who's to say they would all have voted Remain anyway. Pollsters were were wrong then, they've been wrong since and they aren't necessarily right now. People are renowned for keeping their opinions private when voicing them could lead to abuse. Peer pressure is also very real.
> 
> Prejudice against people based on their age, young or old, is as bad and unacceptable as any other prejudice. I'm actually quite sad, even angered to be reading it.
> 
> If I didn't have to wait for the post, I'd leave now, go hug my horse and go for a ride. And remember all the old dead people who gave us the freedom to vote.


Give the younger generation some credit Elles, I'm sure they are capable of critically evaluating the situation by themselves. I know my two are. Both are incredibly well informed.



Elles said:


> Not forgetting that Remainers know that the Eu isn't perfect and wanted to stay in, because they hoped to influence it for the better and they wish for it to improve.
> 
> It could get worse of course and reading the future plans the future could be interpreted as worse or better depending on your point of view. Whether we even could or would influence it for the better would have remained to be seen, but it's all moot now.
> 
> I wouldn't object to a second referendum, though I think it's pointless at this stage.


If a tory government could influence it for the worst - why couldn't a progressive government & progressive MEPs influence it for the better?



Elles said:


> There are a few 'good news' news articles on BBC news today. Even a remainer who warned of dire consequences if Leave won is now optimistic and talking of huge opportunities after Brexit. The pound is stronger, house prices are holding or rising. Private sector pay is rising. The public sector pay cap is on its way out. Morrisons profits are up. We haven't left yet of course and people and businesses are still concerned for Eu citizens living and working in the uk. That does seem to be the main concern now.


GBP recovering slightly is because of indication rates are going up because of inflation that wouldn't be there without brexit Elles.

Pay cap - https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/news/joint-unions-demand-more-pay-for-nhs-staff If you can find a couple of positives surely you can also find the multitude of negatives brexit has created lol



kimthecat said:


> Its really not right the way the Government are treating Eu citizens here.
> They are using them as a bargaining chip but I think this is counter productive . Its sad they feel they have to leave before anything is certain but of course uncertainty is worrying .


Many people fell for the propaganda that Britain is 'full' & migrants are the reason theres a housing crisis and our NHS is collapsing & public services crumbing etc. And all along it was government ministers perpetuating the lie (with the help of their mates in the media). Migrants were the useful for scapegoat for the effects of government policies were having on our society. The old divide & rule tactic. Now these poor people who made the UK their home, who contribute to our society & pay their taxes have made to feel frightened & unwelcome. Its shameful.. Watch the housing crisis worsen & the NHS, public services continue to crumble even though migrant numbers are falling.

At least Germany values them.

*Christian Odendahl*‏@*COdendahl* Sep 14
*
German official yesterday to me: biggest econ benefit to Germany from #Brexit is 
not inv or banks, but migrants coming to GER instead of UK*.



Elles said:


> My friend house shares with a young Polish couple. They aren't too worried they say. It might be that my area and community is generally welcoming though, so they haven't been subjected to any of the prejudice we hear of elsewhere.
> 
> People, the press and the government should realise that it wasn't just Remain voters who didn't want uncertainty for Eu citizens, many, if not most leave voters didn't either. Which makes the majority of the country in favour of a quick and positive result, not delay and quibbling over peoples' lives and livelihoods.


Getting immigration down was one of the main reasons people voted to leave - despite us already having the powers to 'control our own borders'). The government say it is the 'will of the people'.



Elles said:


> I'm not sure that the 1m Brits living abroad are much of a bargaining chip. It's the uk who use Eu citizens, the Eu can easily replace any Brits and the uk government (and businesses) are probably more concerned about people here, than they are people who left and can't vote. Whether they have to come back, or can stay where they are, it's no skin off the government's (or the Eu's) nose.
> 
> Given that big money and big business want to keep their Eu employees, the uk government will have to capitulate on their status eventually imo.


Vince Cable is bang on. https://www.ft.com/content/1cf82c58-99f2-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b

*Britain's treatment of EU nationals is 'appalling', says Cable *
*Lib Dem leader warns 'exodus' from Brexit Britain risks labour shortages.*

https://www.ft.com/content/1cf82c58-99f2-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b

Britain's "appalling" treatment of EU nationals could lead to labour shortages and higher inflation, the Liberal Democrat leader Vince Cable has warned. Sir Vince, the former business secretary, said there was "bags of evidence that a lot of Europeans are leaving", starting to affect sectors such as construction,
hospitality and the health service. "We are going to get an exodus," he said. "These are traditional labour-intensive services, so if the people aren't there, you either don't get the service or the prices go up."

Net immigration fell by one-quarter in the year to March, driven by a 59 per cent rise in emigration among people from eight eastern European countries including Poland. Sir Vince cited the example of his local hospital in Kingston, west London, which told him the departure of European nursing staff was now its biggest issue. "The highest quality people just walked away [after problems with applying for British nationality]," he said. "[The hospital] said we haven't trained any more, British people don't want to do this . . . So we're going to start to go back to the Philippines [to recruit]."



stockwellcat. said:


> All good news on the currency front the last few days.
> 
> *Vlieghe Ignites Pound Sterling Rally, GBP Breaks Fresh Highs vs US Dollar and Euro on Global Exchange Rate Markets*
> 
> Modified: Friday, 15 September 2017 13:57
> The Pound-to-Euro exchange rate is at 1.1378, having gone as high as 1.1396. The Pound-to-Dollar exchange rate is at 1.3593 having gone as high as 1.3615.
> 
> View attachment 325184
> 
> 
> Here is the rest of the article: https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/7562-vlieghe-sparks-fresh-jump-in-sterling
> 
> It is excellent news the pound is starting to recover.


Cause & effect.


----------



## rona

MrsZee said:


> I am still waiting for some statistics or facts from the world you are referring to, Though as this is about EU and Brexit, the statistics about e.g.Africa might not be as relevant.


The EU figures aren't particularly relevant either as it's made up of 27 other countries, the poorer of which have grown exponentially much faster than the richer countries. If you look at like for like, then the difference isn't as substantial as is highlighted in the figures used.

And yes, many many of the poorer countries worldwide faired better than those already doing well


----------



## 1290423

Well the guy that owns weatherspoons is still pretty happy about it all.
And he points out that he pays 90 million VAt on food alone , more taxes then supermarkets I believe it is.
He sells more kopparbrg Sweden cider then the whole of Swedish 
la vavazza Italian coffee is his biggest selling coffee

Guess he's doing ok

That's from the sun so according to many of you must be factual


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> The EU figures aren't particularly relevant either as it's made up of 27 other countries, the poorer of which have grown exponentially much faster than the richer countries. If you look at like for like, then the difference isn't as substantial as is highlighted in the figures used.
> 
> And yes, many many of the poorer countries worldwide faired better than those already doing well


Oh dear, be careful, that's a fact they don't want us to know about


----------



## Elles

I'm not missing any point. I didn't not give the young credit, I objected to the idea that older people don't care and aren't capable of making a decision and shouldn't vote, because they won't be here and are less relevant than the young. Ageism. Of course the young can be well informed, but they didn't all vote to remain either. It's unreasonable to say people are well informed if they voted the same way you did and ignorant if they didn't, then apply prejudiced generalisations to people based on their age, just because for some reason that seems to be an acceptable prejudice.

I didn't say the Tory government could influence the Eu either. My getting worse was just the Eu, by itself, no influence from us. I don't agree with staying in thinking to influence the Eu either way.

Getting immigration down, doesn't necessarily include kicking out people already living here. I would guess that all Remainers and many leave voters didn't want Eu citizens here kicked out. That would make a pretty hefty majority against it.

There is some good news. People can choose to put a negative slant on it, or ignore it if they like, that's up to them.


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> The EU figures aren't particularly relevant either as it's made up of 27 other countries, the poorer of which have grown exponentially much faster than the richer countries. If you look at like for like, then the difference isn't as substantial as is highlighted in the figures used.
> 
> And yes, many many of the poorer countries worldwide faired better than those already doing well


I´m a bit loss, what difference are you talking about? Many many countries are doing better, and some worse. My simple question is this: Britain did very well while in EU, but now it has the lowest growth numbers in EU. The statistics is made the same way very year, so no Brexit fiddle there. (that is the thing about EU, it´s all available in all EU languages, so all can check how the statistics are made, unlike so many other statisctics).

Also I cannot understand that just a few months ago your government complained that there is no money, (and many PF members agreed that there just isnn´t any money, it doesn´t grow in trees) and yet your employment e.g. was ok? I guess the old question " where the money goes" is the one May& co don´t really want to answer. Maybe that was the real reason Brexit happened, as govermments have more difficulties hiding if they do poorly in comparison to others. E.g. a rich country like UK has poorer social security than some much poorer countries.

But it is your choice to find these figures relevant or not, for me they tell volumes about the future.


----------



## Elles

The money thing was about the general election and the spending promises of Jeremy Corbyn, who has since reevaluated.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> So it would be interesting to see those figures. Naturally it would mean for the government that they would have a hard time explaining any cuts, if you are doing so well


I'd love to know how this is explained away.

(consider yourself repped for your excellent posts Mrs Zee x)


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> And as for some of the remainders their attitudes astound me it is as it they are willing brexit to be a big enormous fail.


So someone saying something will be a failure because you for example can post no advantages to leaving, means people who didn't vote for that direction are willing brexit to be a big enormous fail. Britain "worse off" was decided when the government decided to hand in article 50.

The claim that 350 million could be spent on the NHS of course was a lie by itself. I suppose you could say the government could reallocate 350million a week without leaving the EU. Would be just as true. So where's the money being spent trying to prop up science going to come from as just a simple example? What about any money for places like Nissan?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> The money thing was about the general election and the spending promises of Jeremy Corbyn, who has since reevaluated.


What spending promises has he reevaluated on?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> What spending promises has he reevaluated on?


The student fees one.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I'm not missing any point. I didn't not give the young credit, I objected to the idea that older people don't care and aren't capable of making a decision and shouldn't vote, because they won't be here and are less relevant than the young. Ageism. Of course the young can be well informed, but they didn't all vote to remain either. It's unreasonable to say people are well informed if they voted the same way you did and ignorant if they didn't, then apply prejudiced generalisations to people based on their age, just because for some reason that seems to be an acceptable prejudice.
> 
> I didn't say the Tory government could influence the Eu either. My getting worse was just the Eu, by itself, no influence from us. I don't agree with staying in thinking to influence the Eu either way.
> 
> Getting immigration down, doesn't necessarily include kicking out people already living here. I would guess that all Remainers and many leave voters didn't want Eu citizens here kicked out. That would make a pretty hefty majority against it.
> 
> There is some good news. People can choose to put a negative slant on it, or ignore it if they like, that's up to them.


I guess they feel bitter that the generation that will be least affected has influenced a decision which will affect them the most. And lets face it the leave campaign was based on misinformation & lies, while the progressive remain campaign was drowned out by the two opposing right wing camps. Many people never got to hear the other side.

The UK is actually a key player in the EU, instrumental in shaping policies. Here are a sample of the regressive action the tory government has taken - they blocked the cap on CAP payments to subsidise landowners for a start.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/03/rich-landowners-farmers-welfare-nfu-defra

*Revealed: May's secret EU mission to weaken climate and energy targets*
http://www.theecologist.org/News/ne...ion_to_weaken_climate_and_energy_targets.html

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...u-ban-bee-harming-pesticides?CMP=share_btn_tw
*Tories aim to block full EU ban on bee-harming pesticides *
Move to block EU ban comes despite environment secretary Michael Gove saying, 'I don't want to water down' EU protections

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...u-ban-bee-harming-pesticides?CMP=share_btn_tw

And this is why so many tax dodgers back brexit


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> The student fees one.


Are you talking about the report that he'd promised to write off existing student debt then u turned? lol


----------



## Elles

Ok. Kids should feel grateful that the generation who will all be dead tomorrow, made a decision that will benefit them the most. Ungrateful kids, typical youth of today. 

We already discussed the Eu tax thing a few pages back.


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> I guess they feel bitter that the generation that will be least affected has influenced a decision which will affect them the most.


Frankly I think you'll find the majority vote for leave was by the generation that was actually thinking about their children and future generations. Unlike a bunch of sixteen year olds (who thankfully couldn't vote) I considered the younger generations future whereas your average sixteen year old would consider mobile roaming data.

We have actually done future generations a great service by leaving the EU, and one day they will thank us for it.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Are you talking about the report that he'd promised to write off existing student debt then u turned? lol


Many students were led to believe it was so and gave him their support. He didn't put them right until after the election. He made a lot of vague promises, bandying around figures. I was being generous in saying he reevaluated. I could say he lied in the same way that Boris lies, by letting people think something that isn't true.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Frankly I think you'll find the majority vote for leave was by the generation that was actually thinking about their children and future generations. Unlike a bunch of sixteen year olds (who thankfully couldn't vote) I considered the younger generations future whereas your average sixteen year old would consider mobile roaming data.
> 
> We have actually done future generations a great service by leaving the EU, and one day they will thank us for it.


Says someone who couldn't even see Trump would be a disaster lol


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> So someone saying something will be a failure because you for example can post no advantages to leaving, means people who didn't vote for that direction are willing brexit to be a big enormous fail. Britain "worse off" was decided when the government decided to hand in article 50.
> 
> The claim that 350 million could be spent on the NHS of course was a lie by itself. I suppose you could say the government could reallocate 350million a week without leaving the EU. Would be just as true. So where's the money being spent trying to prop up science going to come from as just a simple example? What about any money for places like Nissan?


Nope! But you like me.will have to wait and see!
Pretty shocked though that some, not all, of the remainders do appear , and voice such, that they hope brexit all goes t+ts up!
Whyever would anyone wish for that?


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> Says someone who couldn't even see Trump would be a disaster lol


Well we're still here aren't we 

For now...


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Many students were led to believe it was so and gave him their support. He didn't put them right until after the election. He made a lot of vague promises, bandying around figures. I was being generous in saying he reevaluated. I could say he lied in the same way that Boris lies, by letting people think something that isn't true.


That's not what I'm hearing. They know the tories & their mates in media manipulated the truth, the interview he gave is there for all to see lol The young aren't fools Elles, most seem very aware the biggest liars in this country are sitting in government.


----------



## Elles

It's what I heard. With a daughter who's barely out of uni and living in a university city as I do.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Well we're still here aren't we
> 
> For now...


For now indeed lol If his scorched earth policies dont kill us, his taunting of that other lunatic with a nuclear arsenal will lol


----------



## rona

Dr Pepper said:


> Frankly I think you'll find the majority vote for leave was by the generation that was actually thinking about their children and future generations. Unlike a bunch of sixteen year olds (who thankfully couldn't vote) I considered the younger generations future whereas your average sixteen year old would consider mobile roaming data.
> 
> We have actually done future generations a great service by leaving the EU, and one day they will thank us for it.


I have no children, I risked my pension, I'm not rich, not even well off, but even I want the future for the next generations that was almost taken away from me. If it hadn't been for Maggie, I think things would have already gone to far to of been escaped


----------



## Elles

This is still all terrible ageism and prejudice. The young will be the old soon enough and the old were young once. Unless we die first, it comes to us all. We are all human beings.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> This is still all terrible ageism and prejudice. The young will be the old soon enough and the old were young once. Unless we die first, it comes to us all. We are all human beings.


Surely wisdom comes with age


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> It's what I heard. With a daughter who's barely out of uni and living in a university city as I do.


Look on the internet at what he _actually _said then. My youngest lives in university city too. Both my boys are university graduates - they & all the friends they went to uni with despise the government & they dont want to be dragged out of the EU. I believe most students voted remain & voted for labour in the GE.


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> I have no children, I risked my pension, I'm not rich, not even well off, but even I want the future for the next generations that was almost taken away from me. If it hadn't been for Maggie, I think things would have already gone to far to of been escaped


Hear hear!


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Surely wisdom comes with age


Obviously not lol


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Look on the internet at what he _actually _said then. My youngest lives in university city too. Both my boys are university graduates - they & all the friends they went to uni with despise the government & they dont want to be dragged out of the EU. I believe most students voted remain & voted for labour in the GE.


I'm talking about former students who thought Jeremy would write off their student debts, not their general politics. Link for me what he said about student loans. Not that it matters to me, I don't have one.


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> Obviously not lol


How come? I know that I'm a lot happier than you


----------



## Dr Pepper

rona said:


> Surely wisdom comes with age


Ohh, I thought it was just incontinence


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I'm talking about former students who thought Jeremy would write off their student debts, not their general politics. Link for me what he said about student loans. Not that it matters to me, I don't have one.


Sorry my mistake, I meant existing student debt Elles.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Look on the internet at what he _actually _said then. My youngest lives in university city too. Both my boys are university graduates





Elles said:


> I'm talking about former students who thought Jeremy would write off their student debts, not their general politics. Link for me what he said about student loans. Not that it matters to me, I don't have one.


Yeah, odd as to why Jeremy accumulated such a following, didn't the lib dems once gain an awful lot of young voters too?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> How come? I know that I'm a lot happier than you


Well I beg to differ


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Yeah, odd as to why Jeremy accumulated such a following, didn't the lib dems once gain an awful lot of young voters too?


Its not odd to me Sue. My kids care about social & environmental justice - Corbyn has given them hope.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Ohh, I thought it was just incontinence


Nah, thats memory loss


----------



## Zaros

...


noushka05 said:


> Well I beg to differ


As I've often said on many occasions before, Noush'

We have the delusions we allow ourselves to have.


----------



## Elles

University students are


noushka05 said:


> Sorry my mistake, I meant existing student debt Elles.


Recent students who had huge debts were led to believe Jeremy would write them off as well as make it free for new students. After the election he said we couldn't afford to do it. Part of the talk about not having money and the money tree was related to that and other spending promises made by labour, which is what I was saying to mrszee a lifetime ago lol. It wasn't to do with what our current government are or aren't spending money on today, but about the general election propaganda and on all sides. We aren't talking about money trees and being broke any more. That's yesterday's news.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Its not odd to me Sue. My kids care about social & environmental justice - Corbyn has given them hope.


We can't live on hopes and wishes.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Its not odd to me Sue. My kids care about social & environmental justice - Corbyn has given them hope.


Well guess hes got a handfull of fans


noushka05 said:


> Its not odd to me Sue. My kids care about social & environmental justice - Corbyn has given them hope.


Noush, in the not too distant future maybe five years or so,  we will be sitting in the old folks home, little old ladies one of us will turn to the other and say, coming out the EU was the worst thing we ever did or maybe, the other  will say the best thing we ever did was come out the EU we"ll just have to wait and see xxx


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Nah, thats memory loss


Oh god yea, I can remember what I did thirty years ago, but no idea what I did yesterday. Maybe it's karma so I don't remember I had "intimate leakage" yesterday.


----------



## rona

DT said:


> not too distant future maybe five years or so,


Em..........20 years at least I hope, if I take after my mother another 30 years. The signs are good 

So, I have a future


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> Em..........20 years at least I hope, if I take after my mother another 30 years. The signs are good
> 
> So, I have a future


I'm not sure how old it is before you should lose the right to vote, or to drive a car too probably. The best thing would have been just to ban all the ignoramuses who voted leave whatever their age. Ignorant, uninformed, selfish idiots that they were.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> I'm not sure how old it is before you should lose the right to vote, or to drive a car too probably. The best thing would have been just to ban all the ignoramuses who voted leave whatever their age. Ignorant, uninformed, selfish idiots that they were.


If they put us all down, then we wouldn't be a drain on society and they could let all those young wage earning immigrants in. There'd be plenty of room and money then 

I just know this will set some off


----------



## Elles

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-devon-41284229/honorary-degree-given-to-sidmouth-centenarian

103 years old being given her degree

"Look forwards with hope, not backward with regret and any opportunity that comes along, take it. You never know what you can do until you try."


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> ...
> 
> As I've often said on many occasions before, Noush'
> 
> We have the delusions we allow ourselves to have.


You're so right. I never realised before joining this forum. PF has been an education if nothing else



Elles said:


> University students are
> 
> Recent students who had huge debts were led to believe Jeremy would write them off as well as make it free for new students. After the election he said we couldn't afford to do it. Part of the talk about not having money and the money tree was related to that and other spending promises made by labour, which is what I was saying to mrszee a lifetime ago lol. It wasn't to do with what our current government are or aren't spending money on today, but about the general election propaganda and on all sides. We aren't talking about money trees and being broke any more. That's yesterday's news.


They're not very bright students if they're incapable of evaluating what he actually said lol Must be the Mail readers amongst em lol

Fact Checked by Channel 4 

*No, Corbyn did not 'pledge to abolish student debt'*

Jeremy Corbyn has been accused of U-turning on a pledge to scrap student debt.

But that's not true. The story comes from a single quote plucked from a longer interview.

When read in context, rather than promising to wipe out all student debts, the Labour leader actually admitted that he didn't have any simple answers to the issue yet.

So what was said, exactly? And has Labour been misleading students

*How the story emerged*
In the run-up to the general election, Jeremy Corbyn made a comment about student debt. Speaking to the NME about the issue, he said: "I will deal with it."

At the time, this was not widely picked up on by the national media. But - where it _was_ reported - most papers accurately reflected that Corbyn had not explicitly promised to write off all debts. For instance, the Daily Mail said the Labour leader had pledged to "reduce _or even_ write off" student debt.

But then, on Sunday, Corbyn was quizzed about this remark during a BBC interview.

Presenter Andrew Marr put it to him: "If you are a young voter and you heard those words: 'I will deal with it', you might have thought Jeremy Corbyn is going to relieve me of my debt."

Corbyn was forced to defend his position, saying: "We never said we would completely abolish it."

For some, this constituted a U-turn.

The Mail said: "Labour has backtracked on its promise to write off £100 billion of student debt." The Telegraph said the party had "retracted its pledge to abolish student debt". And Alan Sugar called Jeremy Corbyn a "cheat" and said he should resign for having "lied".

*So, did Corbyn really promise to write-off existing student debt?*
No

It's true that he promised to "deal" with the problem of people who are "burdened with student debt". But this was just one sentence from a much longer interview.

The full context is important - and has been ignored by many critics.

He told the NME: "There is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I'm looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden."

He added: "I don't have the simple answer for it at this stage - I don't think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this. But I'm very well aware of that problem.

"And I don't see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it."

In context, it is clear that Corbyn stopped short of making any specific pledge about completely writing-off all student debts

It's true that he was appealing to young voters by promising to address the issue and trying to reduce the burden of student debt. But at no point did he make any policy commitments. In fact, he explicitly said that he didn't have an firm answers yet.

What's more, none of the possible solutions he mentioned included wiping out all debt. Instead, he talked about reducing or ameliorating (which simply means to make the situation easier) the burden of student debts.

And this was not actually a new Labour position. The party had already said it would "look for ways to ameliorate this debt burden in future

Indeed, while Labour's manifesto promised to "abolish university tuition fees" and said that many young people are "held back by debt", it made no mention of writing off student debts, or anything similar

*The verdict*
Corbyn has not U-turned on student debt, because he never made a commitment to do this in the first place. He expressed sympathy with debt-laden graduates and promised to help ease the burden on them. But - as far as we can tell - he never pledged to write off all graduate debts

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/no-corbyn-did-not-pledge-to-abolish-student-debt



Elles said:


> We can't live on hopes and wishes.


I know, that's why I voted remain


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Well guess hes got a handfull of fans
> 
> Noush, in the not too distant future maybe five years or so,  we will be sitting in the old folks home, little old ladies one of us will turn to the other and say, coming out the EU was the worst thing we ever did or maybe, the other  will say the best thing we ever did was come out the EU we"ll just have to wait and see xxx


 Jeezus 5 years or so? You speak for yourself, I'm still in my prime!:Jawdrop

:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

He did a Boris in other words.

I was being sarcastic, or is it facetious. One or the other.

Of course we can hope for the best and a good future and take opportunity as it presents itself. Just as you say Jeremy offers your young people hope, although I didn't vote for it myself, Brexit offers me hope too.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> He did a Boris in other words.
> 
> I was being sarcastic.
> 
> Of course we can hope for the best and a good future and take opportunity as it presents itself. Just as you say Jeremy offers your young people hope, although I didn't vote for it myself, Brexit offers me hope too.


Difference is Corbyn has something substantial to offer them - an end to neoliberalism & its austerity. Can I ask what you hope for outside the EU with a hard right government that has given itself unprecedented power?


----------



## Elles

Reading his waffle, that must go down in history as the longest way of saying I'm not doing something. Talk about round the houses.

Read back, I've already listed dozens of opportunities unavailable inside the Eu. I expect I can add another, no vat on sanitary products, though I admit it's not something I've delved into, being past a certain age and of no interest to Prince Charles.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Reading his waffle, that must go down in history as the longest way of saying I'm not doing something. Talk about round the houses.
> 
> Read back, I've already listed dozens of opportunities unavailable inside the Eu. *I expect I can add another, no vat on sanitary products, though I admit it's not something I've delved int*o, being past a certain age and of no interest to Prince Charles.


We wont have a fraction of the opportunities we have now, but at least we can axe the tampon tax even though we'd already negotiated that anyway :Hilarious- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35834142

,


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> We wont have a fraction of the opportunities we have now, but at least we can axe the tampon tax even though we'd already negotiated that anyway :Hilarious- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35834142
> 
> ,


Awh, the,tampon tax, now seriously what sort of an idiot would come up with that?
And who in their right mind would want to be a member of a club who could even think it let alone do it.

Im waiting for them to suggest tax on toilet paper per sheet.


----------



## Elles

So the Eu were going to allow the zero vat anyway, because it's not up to them, but they let it look as though David Cameron negotiated it, so it looked like our government had influence, to persuade people to stay in the Eu. I think I've got it.

Now they're saying that we can only do it now we're out of the Eu, to make people happier about leaving the Eu.

Those innocent sanitary products are a lot more useful than they appear to be.


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Awh, the,tampon tax, now seriously what sort of an idiot would come up with that?
> *And who in their right mind would want to be a member of a club who could even think it let alone do it*
> 
> Im waiting for them to suggest tax on toilet paper per sheet
> .


Someone who can see we're sinking into the abyss outside of it maybe? lol


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> Are you a Mirror journalist


I suspect a ghost writer for 'The Sun'.


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> I suspect a ghost writer for 'The Sun'.


Don't you mean the beano?


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> Whyever would anyone wish for that?


Sour grapes, mayhap?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> So the Eu were going to allow the zero vat anyway, because it's not up to them, but they let it look as though David Cameron negotiated it, so it looked like our government had influence, to persuade people to stay in the Eu. I think I've got it.
> 
> Now they're saying that we can only do it now we're out of the Eu, to make people happier about leaving the Eu.
> 
> Those innocent sanitary products are a lot more useful than they appear to be.


What ever your theory as to the whys & wherefores Elles, the point is that some are reduced to using it as a reason to leave the EU when it can sorted from within the EU.

Did you know Russian bots are out in force again helping the leave campaign? Why do you think Russia wants a weakened EU?

.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Just about the same age as I was when I was forced to join the monstrous institution with no say


#

When we were was known as the 'sick man of Europe'.












Another reason for our label. Yet we've gifted unprecedented powers to the very people who have caused this ---

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...ement-_-Unspecified-_-TWITTER&linkId=42049134

*Britain is sick man of Europe as life expectancy trails continent*
Expert calls for action on 'urgent and deepening health problems'
Britain is becoming "the sick man of Europe" as life expectancy surges in other countries, analysis shows.

One of the world's leading experts has demanded government action over "urgent and deepening problems with the nation's health", as he reveals that the rest of Europe is living ever longer while progress in Britain has stalled.

Sir Michael Marmot is calling for an immediate investigation into why a century of lengthening lives has come to an end, which he argues is fundamentally more important than the threat of a bed shortage in the NHS. He raised the alarm in July over static life expectancies, pointing out that until 2010 Britons were gaining a year of life every four years but since then the rise had almost ground…



rona said:


> Just look at the world statistics that are not from the EU


Will this do? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...mer-spending-barely-grows-restraining-economy


----------



## kimthecat

Big hoo ha about Boris and his Brexit article in the The Telegraph .
Its like watching a chimpanzees tea party on board the Titanic.


----------



## Elles

Russian bots? Gathering information about my shopping habits, or politics? Or brainwashing the masses through twitter?

I would bet anything you like, not one person voted Leave because the Russians told them to, or even influenced them. I'd think it was a bit sad if someone voted Remain, because they were afraid of the Russians.

We know that fear of Brexit, particularly amongst Remainers, slowed growth for a while. We know the Brexit vote upset the applecart and people weren't prepared for it. We haven't done it yet.


----------



## Happy Paws2

wrong thread


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Russian bots?


I give up; I really do! Paranoid, much?


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> the Russians told them to


I did Russian at university, but they've not tried to brainwash me.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> Horrific accident, those poor people didn't stand a chance. I wonder what caused the lorry to cross from one side of the motorway to the opposite side. Lorry driver take to hospital as a precaution.


Think wrong thread?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Think wrong thread?


Thank's I've just deleted it :Shamefullyembarrased


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> I did Russian at university, but they've not tried to brainwash me.


I had a russian doll when I was little! Maybe its some sort of secret device that all us little girls were given in an attempt to brain wash us


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> I had a russian doll when I was little! Maybe its some sort of secret device that all us little girls were given in an attempt to brain wash us


I wouldn't be surprised; you can't trust anyone these days.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Don't you mean the beano?


You mean the leaver's source of factual information? Thought that was the Dandy.


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> Yes, I think they did: because so many recently have been way out.


Thank you Calvine. Nice to know considering Referendums are only opinion polls in the UK.


----------



## Elles

The government told us at the time that they would abide by the referendum result. If it was just an opinion poll, I wouldn't have bothered voting.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Thank you Calvine. Nice to know considering Referendums are only opinion polls in the UK.


Oh good grief. Yes we get it, you're angry about the referendum because the idiots who voted out clearly aren't as intelligent, well read, refined yadda yadda yadda as you are. How dare the government let these imbeciles have a voice.

At the end of the day all votes are an opinion poll, Brexit is happening and you're thoroughly miserable.


----------



## Elles

I see live transport is back in the news. Good. Let's hope there's more pressure now we're brexiting.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> You mean the leaver's source of factual information? Thought that was the Dandy.


Yep! Knew it were one or the other, had to be either the dandy or the beano didn't it
Like the mirror and the sun
Remainders tended to be mirror readers
Whilst the brexiters chose the sun.

Least that's what some claim


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh good grief. Yes we get it, you're angry about the referendum because the idiots who voted out clearly aren't as intelligent, well read, refined yadda yadda yadda as you are. How dare the government let these imbeciles have a voice.


It's hard isn't it when the reality of referendums are pointed out. Maybe you should do a bit of research on referendums.



Elles said:


> The government told us at the time that they would abide by the referendum result. If it was just an opinion poll, I wouldn't have bothered voting.


It was known before the referendum that the referendum wasn't binding. Even Farage knew that. Ah wait, politician said..


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> It's hard isn't it when the reality of referendums are pointed out. Maybe you should do a bit of research on referendums.
> 
> It was known before the referendum that the referendum wasn't binding. Even Farage knew that. Ah wait, politician said..


Maybe not! But a heck of a lot of money was spent on running referendum that wasn't meant to be binding. Not to mention the letter alone that was sent to every household in the UK urging us to vote to remain. Cameron Cameron made it quite clear before the election was run it was a once only decision in or out you decide. well we did decide.

Maybe if the remain camp had. not been quite so certain that they would have won they should have been making a lot more noise about the fact it wasn't binding at the Beginning rather than when it's all over.

But then no one expected it to go the way it did did they. 
And if the result had been the opposite I doubt we would still be banging on about this 18 months later


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> Not to mention the letter alone that was sent to every household


Ah yes, I remember: the one that only cost 34p per household to advertise, print and post when postage itself cost more than that. That one, @DT? (Sniggers.)


----------



## Bisbow

If the vote had gone the other way I bet it would have been binding and we would have been told to accept it and shut up and stop moaning and we would not have had to put up with all the vitriol we have been getting


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> It's hard isn't it when the reality of referendums are pointed out. Maybe you should do a bit of research on referendums.
> 
> It was known before the referendum that the referendum wasn't binding. Even Farage knew that. Ah wait, politician said..


You didn't actually vote did you? If you had, and read the ballot paper, you would have been hard pushed to miss the big bold words saying the results of the referendum would be acted upon. There was absolutely 100% no doubt that as the majority of us put our cross in the "leave" box that we knew it was a binding vote.


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> If the vote had gone the other way I bet it would have been binding and we would have been told to accept it and shut up and stop moaning and we would not have had to put up with all the vitriol we have been getting


You can bet your life on that.


----------



## Jesthar

DT said:


> And if the result had been the opposite I doubt we would still be banging on about this 18 months later


If the result had been the opposite we'd have been hearing about it on and off for the next several decades until the Powers That Be decided to grant another referendum 

The main reason the result is still being banged on about with such intensity 18 months later is because of enormity of the task, the massive upheavals to be faced, and the tiny timescales involved - particularly give that it is all down to a very slender result from an opinion poll referendum. A Remain result would have left a long term simmering of resentment, but the Leave result (which would have been explosive enough no matter what) seems to have rapidly become the political equivalent of lighting a stick of dynamite without actually having even begun to start deciding what to do with it once lit. This is not helped by our leadership, which rather than focussing on blasting plans and safety measures instead seem to have opted for some sort of comedy slapstick TNT juggling routine of the kind you might find in a Looney Tunes reel...


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> Ah yes, I remember: the one that only cost 34p per household to advertise, print and post when postage itself cost more than that. That one, @DT? (Sniggers.)


And don't forget all those households that returned said leaflet using the free post address. That's the free post that's not paid by the sender but the receiver I add!


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> didn't actually vote did you? If you had, and read the ballot paper, you would have been hard pushed to miss the big bold words saying the results of the referendum would be acted upon. There was absolutely 100% no doubt that as the majority of us put our cross in the "leave" box that we knew it was a binding vote


And Cameron surely said_ it was a once in a lifetime event_. Why (as @DT said) spend so much on something that isn't going to be followed thro' and take place? For a giggle?


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> all those households that returned said leaflet using the free post address.


Like me, you mean, and many people I know!


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> And Cameron surely said_ it was a once in a lifetime event_. Why (as @DT said) spend so much on something that isn't going to be followed thro' and take place? For a giggle?


Or perhaps Cameron thought it would add a feather to his cap and strengthen the cons further, had they have voted to remain we would never ever have had another chance to ever vote again.


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> Like me, you mean, and many people I know!


Yep! We never did find out how many sacks were returned did we? Would be interested to learn.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> If you had, and read the ballot paper, you would have been hard pushed to miss the big bold words saying the results of the referendum would be acted upon. There was absolutely 100% no doubt that as the majority of us put our cross in the "leave" box that we knew it was a binding vote.


So.. 100% no doubt for the majority suddenly makes something false, true. Guess if that's what some leavers feel, it certainly explains the brexit fantasy. Unfortunately truth is truth, fantasy is fantasy no matter how much you believe it. Oh I forgot.. politician said it.. must be true. Bit like all those benefits of leaving are all true even though they've been shown to be false.

Ooh acted upon. Not we will leave the EU. Actually implementing immigration controls in regards to freedom of movement.. referendum would have been acted upon. Actually setting the record straight about the lie "unelected bureaucrats" would have been acting upon the referendum result. Referendum result could of been used for the benefit of the country if politicians on all sides actually put the country and those they represent first. They haven't. What is worse, they still aren't. So much for a government being held accountable. Hard to do so when people want and encourage the government to lie to them.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So.. 100% no doubt for the majority suddenly makes something false, true. Guess if that's what some leavers feel, it certainly explains the brexit fantasy. Unfortunately truth is truth, fantasy is fantasy no matter how much you believe it. Oh I forgot.. politician said it.. must be true. Bit like all those benefits of leaving are all true even though they've been shown to be false.
> 
> Ooh acted upon. Not we will leave the EU. Actually implementing immigration controls in regards to freedom of movement.. referendum would have been acted upon. Actually setting the record straight about the lie "unelected bureaucrats" would have been acting upon the referendum result. Referendum result could of been used for the benefit of the country if politicians on all sides actually put the country and those they represent first. They haven't. What is worse, they still aren't. So much for a government being held accountable. Hard to do so when people want and encourage the government to lie to them.


To be fair I can't remember the exact wording (can you?), it was well over a year ago now, but it left no other interpretation than the results of the referendum would be honoured whatever the result.

Not sure what's so hard to understand? Are so far in denial that you actually think someone will suddenly stop the process? Did you put your "X" in the box really thinking "well not a lot of point in this it's only a opinion poll"?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> It's hard isn't it when the reality of referendums are pointed out. Maybe you should do a bit of research on referendums.
> 
> It was known before the referendum that the referendum wasn't binding. Even Farage knew that. Ah wait, politician said..


But why would I look it up and deny you the chance to patronise me?


----------



## kimthecat

Wow 600 pages and 12,000 posts! That must be a record .


----------



## 1290423

If that was only an opinion poll all I can say is when we need to decide something important in future we'll have to have an opinion poll rather then an election as obviously more people turn out for these "opinion polls" then they do the real think!


----------



## Dr Pepper

MiffyMoo said:


> But why would I look it up and deny you the chance to patronise me?


To be fair to Goblin I didn't know a referendum was just an opinion poll. I presumed that it was going to be honoured from the off as this is what we were told right up until we casted our vote. However can you imagine the civil unrest if on losing Mr Cameron stood outside No.10 the morning after and said "thank you for your opinions, however we will be remaining in the EU"?


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> "well not a lot of point in this it's only a opinion poll"?


And an expensive one at that. Maybe that's why so many Remainers *allegedly* could not be arsed to vote . . . maybe they had inside info that the whole thing was a joke and were advised not to bother getting out of bed.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair to Goblin I didn't know a referendum was just an opinion poll. I presumed that it was going to be honoured from the off as this is what we were told right up until we casted our vote. However can you imagine the civil unrest if on losing Mr Cameron stood outside No.10 the morning after and said "thank you for your opinions, however we will be remaining in the EU"?


Frankly, I don't see the point of going to the expense of holding a referendum if you're just going to ignore the results.

It's an opinion poll insofar as "what's your opinion, shall we stay or go". Which is why I said elections were as well - "what's your opinion on who will run the country better?"


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair to Goblin I didn't know a referendum was just an opinion poll. I presumed that it was going to be honoured from the off as this is what we were told right up until we casted our vote. However can you imagine the civil unrest if on losing Mr Cameron stood outside No.10 the morning after and said "thank you for your opinions, however we will be remaining in the EU"?


Hahaha! Instead of which he said, 'Yikes, I really flunked it; I'm off!''


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair to Goblin I didn't know a referendum was just an opinion poll. I presumed that it was going to be honoured from the off as this is what we were told right up until we casted our vote. However can you imagine the civil unrest if on losing Mr Cameron stood outside No.10 the morning after and said "thank you for your opinions, however we will be remaining in the EU"?


And neither did 99% of the population if they were honest. I suspect it was maybe a loophole that someone found after the event. A bit like insurance companies you know how it goes


----------



## MiffyMoo

Calvine said:


> And an expensive one at that. Maybe that's why so many Remainers *allegedly* could not be arsed to vote . . . maybe they had inside info that the whole thing was a joke and were advised not to bother getting out of bed.


That was the day of the floods, so maybe they were scared of getting their feet wet


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> A bit like insurance companies


Yes, worming their way out of things!


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> That was the day of the floods, so maybe they were scared of getting their feet wet


You have a good memory. I can't remember that TBH.


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> And neither did 99% of the population if they were honest. I suspect it was maybe a loophole that someone found after the event. A bit like insurance companies you know how it goes


I think it's simply a case of the government choosing the wrong word. What the right word is I have no idea, maybe it should have been spelt out better for the remainers so they understood.

Actually to be fair I think the vast majority of remainers fully understood it would be legally binding.


----------



## Happy Paws2

With Oliver Robbins resigning and Boris opening his big mouth, if it wasn't so serious it would be funny.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> With Oliver Robbins resigning and Boris opening his big mouth, if it wasn't so serious it would be funny.


Oliver Robbins hasn't really gone anywhere or lost any clout has he? He's just not working alongside David Davis as they don't get on.

What's new about Boris opening his mouth, it's what he's always done


----------



## Happy Paws2

Funny how leavers see the world though rose tinted glasses.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Funny how leavers see the world though rose tinted glasses.


It's what the BBC say
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41308081

You can't always get on with who you work with. There were several in my working life that I tried very hard to avoid 

You could look at it that he's been promoted


----------



## Elles

Re: Rose tinted glasses

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090603103807.htm

"Specifically our study shows that when in a positive mood, our visual cortex takes in more information, while negative moods result in tunnel vision.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> It's what the BBC say
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41308081
> 
> You can't always get on with who you work with. There were several in my working life that I tried very hard to avoid
> 
> *You could look at it that he's been promoted*


----------



## MiffyMoo

Theresa May has just confirmed Canada's free trade agreement with the EU will be transferred over to the UK with 'smooth transition' post-Brexit


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> Funny how leavers see the world though rose tinted glasses.


Rose coloured specs aint that what the whole of the EU look though when they visualize how they WOULD LIKE the EU to look!


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Theresa May has just confirmed Canada's free trade agreement with the EU will be transferred over to the UK with 'smooth transition' post-Brexit


No, she's stated she wants it as a basis of a trade deal. In otherwords nothing is set and it's simply what she wants. Canada can say no or more likely we want things changed. It's fine as a starting point. What about any adjuducation if required.. is that the ECJ or a third party in the trade agreement with the EU? That would be fun wouldn't it if it was the ECJ.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> No, she's stated she wants it as a basis of a trade deal. In otherwords nothing is set and it's simply what she wants. Canada can say no or more likely we want things changed. It's fine as a starting point. What about any adjuducation if required.. is that the ECJ or a third party in the trade agreement with the EU? That would be fun wouldn't it if it was the ECJ.


Oh ok, you may want to tell her to check in with you before doing press conferences then.

"I am pleased that we have agreed today that CETA should be swiftly transitioned to form a new bilateral arrangement between the UK and Canada after Brexit".


----------



## Goblin

Should be <> will be. Look at what she has promised in the past, often what she wants as truth rather than reality.

Also bear in mind that until the end of negotiations with the EU are completed, external trade deal negotiations are not allowed. She will not, at least until Friday if she declares she's pulling out of the negotiations unilaterally, state the government is breaking the rules whilst still negotiating. If she does it will make negotiations with the EU even harder. Why should the EU make agreements when she has demonstrated she will break them whenever she wants to?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Should be <> will be. Look at what she has promised in the past, often what she wants as truth rather than reality.
> 
> Also bear in mind that until the end of negotiations with the EU are completed, external trade deal negotiations are not allowed. She will not, at least until Friday if she declares she's pulling out of the negotiations unilaterally, state the government is breaking the rules whilst still negotiating. If she does it will make negotiations with the EU even harder. Why should the EU make agreements when she has demonstrated she will break them whenever she wants to?


Aww look at that, so positive, as always.


----------



## rona

MiffyMoo said:


> Aww look at that, so positive, as always.


Shouldn't take any notice as Mr Trudeau is saying virtually the same as Theresa
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justin-trudeau-theresa-may-meeting-1.4294515

Oh and as side piece, if you look at their press reports you'll find mention that their food banks are the busiest they've ever been


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Shouldn't take any notice as Mr Trudeau is saying virtually the same as Theresa


So look at what is said:


> Canada's free trade deal with the European Union will *form the basis* for a swift transition to a post-Brexit trading relationship between Canada and the U.K., Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his British counterpart Theresa May suggested Monday.





> Trudeau agreed there *could be changes to shape this new deal* and make it particular to the relationship between Canada and the U.K. after the initial post-Brexit transition.


----------



## Elles

I expect the Eu will want it too.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> So look at what is said:


I'm trying to figure out what you're being grumpy about here, Happy McGigglepants


----------



## rona

Yes I read it but I saw it very differently to you. What I saw went hand in hand with the warmth of their body language and smiles


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Aww look at that, so positive, as always.


So tell me, how this is going to work with just the UK/Canada?


> CETA establishes a permanent Tribunal of fifteen Members which will be competent to hear claims for violation of the investment protection standards established in the agreement. The Members of the Tribunal competent to hear investment disputes will be appointed by the EU and Canada and will be highly qualified and beyond reproach in terms of ethics. Divisions of the Tribunal consisting of three Members will hear each particular case.





MiffyMoo said:


> I'm trying to figure out what you're being grumpy about here, Happy McGigglepants


So pointing out reality is being grumpy is it. We want <> we will. Time to celebrate is when it's concluded.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> So tell me, how this is going to work with just the UK/Canada?
> 
> So pointing out reality is being grumpy is it. We want <> we will. Time to celebrate is when it's concluded.


Or we could celebrate any positive move forward, especially with so much negativity surrounding it. Surely you can't be so angry about the result that you would prefer everything to go t*ts up, just to prove you right?


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> Aww look at that, so positive, as always.


Well you know how it goes!
Some folks glasses are always half empty!
Why others are always half full!
I prefer the latter.......


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> Or we could celebrate any positive move forward, especially with so much negativity surrounding it. Surely you can't be so angry about the result that you would prefer everything to go t*ts up, just to prove you right?


Its a funny old world we live in!
And some odd people we share it with


----------



## Goblin

Notice people cannot argue with the facts or answer simple questions prefering to "believe".



MiffyMoo said:


> Or we could celebrate any positive move forward, especially with so much negativity surrounding it. Surely you can't be so angry about the result that you would prefer everything to go t*ts up, just to prove you right?


So tell me, do you agree with TTIP?


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Notice people cannot argue with the facts.
> 
> So tell me, do you agree with TTIP?


But isnt that a secret deal thats being talked between the EU and the USA
What happens there when we leave the EU?


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> But isnt that a secret deal thats being talked between the EU and the USA
> What happens there when we leave the EU?


Well you are celebrating the fact that it's part of the new UK model trade deal. In the EU each member state of the EU will have to ratify it, despite it going "live". Interesting considering Wallonia has already rejected it.

http://www.globaljustice.org.uk/what-ceta-0

Oh I forget.. pretend everything is all smelling of roses..


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Well you are celebrating the fact that it's part of the new UK model trade deal. In the EU each member state of the EU will have to ratify it, despite it going "live". Interesting considering Wallonia has already rejected it.
> 
> http://www.globaljustice.org.uk/what-ceta-0
> 
> Oh I forget.. pretend everything is all smelling of roses..


Nothing smells of roses!
Every single deal out there has two sides to it, each side wanting the best out of 'said' deal for themselves!
But why are there some that 'think' that the eu will negotiate better deals for us then we can for ourselves?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Notice people cannot argue with the facts or answer simple questions prefering to "believe".
> 
> So tell me, do you agree with TTIP?


Trudeau has said that they will use CETA as a basis. Opposing TTIP doesn't mean you have to oppose all bilateral trade agreements


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Well you are celebrating the fact that it's part of the new UK model trade deal. In the EU each member state of the EU will have to ratify it, despite it going "live". Interesting considering Wallonia has already rejected it.
> 
> http://www.globaljustice.org.uk/what-ceta-0
> 
> Oh I forget.. pretend everything is all smelling of roses..


You weren't eligible to vote were you? You are a expat that wants the best of both worlds for yourself whilst ignoring the wishes of the indigenous population of the UK and what they know is best for Britain?


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> You weren't eligible to vote were you? You are a expat that wants the best of both worlds for yourself whilst ignoring the wishes of the indigenous population of the UK and what they know is us best for Britain?


but what does that matter? Like putin and trump, goblin knows best!
The three grumpateers:Bear


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> but what does that matter? Like putin and trump, goblin knows best!
> The three grumpateers:Bear


Because @Goblin.does.
Meanwhile on.home front Brexit aka falling pound ate away about 20% of our income as Gibraltar has to import food etc..from Spain.

Companies closing and gaming industry going away. Problems with the frontier already affecting tourist industry.
Suddenly job market is full of unemployed and qualified people.
Hundreds of applications for every post...
I think we are just a miniature Britain...so feel the effects quicker...
Many families struggle now. Especially if you have a few kids...born before Brexit and what to do now?
Lots of cats given up. . People migrated to find work or had to give up their lodgings. Truly heartbreaking.

But you think it will not reach UK?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Because @Goblin.does.
> Meanwhile on.home front Brexit aka falling pound ate away about 20% of our income as Gibraltar has to import food etc..from Spain.
> 
> Companies closing and gaming industry going away. Problems with the frontier already affecting tourist industry.
> Suddenly job market is full of unemployed and qualified people.
> Hundreds of applications for every post...
> I think we are just a miniature Britain...so feel the effects quicker...
> Many families struggle now. Especially if you have a few kids...born before Brexit and what to do now?
> Lots of cats given up. . People migrated to find work or had to give up their lodgings. Truly heartbreaking.
> 
> But you think it will not reach UK?


Apparently not, nor do they seem to give a damn about what you're going through which is shocking. It's always the poor pets who suffer first but what the hell. Britain can be great again, what on earth was wrong with it before June 2016?

This screen capture seen over at Sabre Roads site says it all about the negotiations.

Trying not to be sarcastic. This saddens me very much.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...est-nationalist-liar-newspapers-a7952786.html


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> Trying not to be sarcastic. This saddens me very much.
> View attachment 325778


Have to agree with that WHEN Netflix tell me what other providers I can use (imagine the huge surcharge I'd have to pay to use Amazon Prime), how much extra I have to pay the other providers, insist that to use Netflix I have to allow my neighbors unrestricted access to my home to watch it, charge me a massive surcharge so poorer families can watch it for free and to top it off tell me what I can and can't do in my own house when I'm not watching Netflix.

Anyone signing up for that?


----------



## Bisbow

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm trying to figure out what you're being grumpy about here, Happy McGigglepants


Do you think he is trying to live up to his name

From what I remember goblins where bad tempered, unhappy, deceitful little creatures who spent their time trying to ruin other peoples lives, with never a good word to say about anything that may have been beneficial to the rest of civilization


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> Do you think he is trying to live up to his name
> 
> From what I remember goblins where bad tempered, unhappy, deceitful little creatures who spent their time trying to ruin other peoples lives, with never a good word to say about anything that may have been beneficial to the rest of civilization


LOl at your interpretation
not to be confused with those trolls, another nasty little species with brightly coloured hair normally found under bridges.


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> Because @Goblin.does.
> Meanwhile on.home front Brexit aka falling pound ate away about 20% of our income as Gibraltar has to import food etc..from Spain.


All they can do is revert to is personal attacks. They cannot justify leaving so what does that leave them @cheekyscrip other than wishful thinking.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> All they can do is revert to is personal attacks. They cannot justify leaving so what does that leave them @cheekyscrip other than wishful thinking.


Awh, or maybe we are just happy to be leaving the EU as we all fear for our sense of humour! It have become evident that the majority of eu member countries are losing it. Or maybe there is talk of introducing a sense of humour tax.


----------



## Bisbow

But we have justified our reasons for leaving, more times than I care to count but you can't, won't bother to read then and as DT says we are fearful that our sense of humour will be taken from us, not that that would bother you as you don't have one


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> You weren't eligible to vote were you?


Why not, @Dr Pepper?: Was Goblin in jail? ?


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> a sense of humour tax.


Or, worse still: a sense of humour by-pass!


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> But we have justified our reasons for leaving, more times than I care to count but you can't, won't bother to read then and as DT says we are fearful that our sense of humour will be taken from us, not that that would bother you as you don't have one


Fearful that we will render ourselves unconscious banging our heads against a wall.


----------



## Bisbow

Calvine said:


> Fearful that we will render ourselves unconscious banging our heads against a wall.


They would like that then there would be no-one to stand in their way and they could get what they want


----------



## Elles

Any expats who left the uk 15+ years ago weren't given a vote in the referendum. Goblin I believe lives in Germany, but I don't think he's said anywhere whether he was eligilble to vote, unless it was in the pages before I joined this thread. There were more people allowed to vote than in general elections though, including Gibraltar. 

I expect Eu citizens living and working in Gibraltar have similar concerns to Eu citizens living and working elsewhere in Britain. With the added concerns about the border and Spain. Although Spain recently said they won't interfere with Brexit and want the border to remain fluid, I'm not sure from reading the news that gib believe them.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Calvine said:


> Why not, @Dr Pepper?: Was Goblin in jail? ?


As @Elles said there's a time limit for ex-pats since they left. I don't know how long ago @Goblin left so thought I'd ask. I'd be really interested to know.


----------



## Elles

When you think about it, expats who left up to 15 years ago, Gibraltar, Ireland, commonwealth people e.g. Australians living the uk, all these people who were more likely to vote Remain out of self interest if nothing else, should have ensured Cameron's desired Remain result. Yet still Britain voted to leave.


----------



## shadowmare

Elles said:


> When you think about it, expats who left up to 15 years ago, Gibraltar, Ireland, commonwealth people e.g. Australians living the uk, all these people who were more likely to vote Remain out of self interest if nothing else, should have ensured Cameron's desired Remain result. Yet still Britain voted to leave.


Why would people living in Australia or any commonwealth countries be interested in UK staying in EU?... why do you think someone living outside of UK for the past 10 years and having no plans to come back, would care about UK in or out of EU?


----------



## shadowmare

cheekyscrip said:


> Because @Goblin.does.
> Meanwhile on.home front Brexit aka falling pound ate away about 20% of our income as Gibraltar has to import food etc..from Spain.
> 
> Companies closing and gaming industry going away. Problems with the frontier already affecting tourist industry.
> Suddenly job market is full of unemployed and qualified people.
> Hundreds of applications for every post...
> I think we are just a miniature Britain...so feel the effects quicker...
> Many families struggle now. Especially if you have a few kids...born before Brexit and what to do now?
> Lots of cats given up. . People migrated to find work or had to give up their lodgings. Truly heartbreaking.
> 
> But you think it will not reach UK?


It's ok cheeky, give it a few years. It will be rainbows and unicorns... or at least here in the la la land. You can I know up a job either in the strawberry fields or NHS - I hear there's plenty of jobs going. You may need to put up a fight against all those keen workers who are on benefits at the moment though. The natives are all keen to see you all come back and unite powers to get the country back. Stand strong and stable. Have faith in government. They're doing their best to make country great again and make your life as glorious as it was a few decades ago. If all else fails, just stomp your feet and blame the EU. 
Right, I'm off to have a daily dose of laughter by looking at the newspapers. Pretty sure there was a headline along the lines of "Boris is Boris" a couple of days ago...


----------



## Elles

Well I was thinking more of Malta than Australia, but they are people who travel and would likely be in favour of open borders.

Of course many Brits living and working in the Eu would be interested. If Britain brexited they'd be concerned that they might not be permitted to stay in Europe, same as Eu citizens living in the uk. Plus if the pound crashed as predicted by Remainers, if their investments and pensions were in sterling, they'd have less money when they converted it to Euro.

Plus not everyone votes for themselves and their own interests, but what they think might be better for others they know. If I'd voted purely for myself, I would have voted leave without a backward look.


----------



## Elles

shadowmare said:


> It's ok cheeky, give it a few years. It will be rainbows and unicorns... or at least here in the la la land. You can I know up a job either in the strawberry fields or NHS - I hear there's plenty of jobs going. You may need to put up a fight against all those keen workers who are on benefits at the moment though. The natives are all keen to see you all come back and unite powers to get the country back. Stand strong and stable. Have faith in government. They're doing their best to make country great again and make your life as glorious as it was a few decades ago. If all else fails, just stomp your feet and blame the EU.
> Right, I'm off to have a daily dose of laughter by looking at the newspapers. Pretty sure there was a headline along the lines of "Boris is Boris" a couple of days ago...


Cheeky is a Polish lady living in Gibraltar I believe.


----------



## shadowmare

Elles said:


> Cheeky is a Polish lady living in Gibraltar I believe.


I know that very well but how does that change the fact that her life is being directly affected by Brexit already?... is it insignificant or irrelevant because she's polish? Or is it because she lives in Gibraltar and not somewhere in England?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Elles said:


> Of course many Brits living and working in the Eu would be interested. If Britain brexited they'd be concerned that they might not be permitted to stay in Europe, same as Eu citizens living in the uk. Plus if the pound crashed as predicted by Remainers, if their investments and pensions were in sterling, they'd have less money when they converted it to Euro.
> 
> .


That's why I think @Goblin is so upset, it's for purely selfish reasons. On the Jeremy Vine show a few months back they had expats from most of the EU countries on the show. They were being asked how they felt about Brexit and without expectation is was all selfish reasons, not one of them even mentioned things being worse (or better) for the UK, just they wanted freedom of movements, be able study where they liked etc.

I understand those selfish reasons and why expats are currently worried about their status post-Brexit. But we were voting for what we believed was best for the U.K as a whole, not a small minority's personal circumstances.


----------



## Elles

shadowmare said:


> I know that very well but how does that change the fact that her life is being directly affected by Brexit already?... is it insignificant or irrelevant because she's polish? Or is it because she lives in Gibraltar and not somewhere in England?


Because your post said the natives are keen to see you all come back and unite powers to get the country back. Make your life as glorious as it was a few decades ago. Stand strong and stable. Etc.

Which seems an odd thing to say to someone who is Polish?


----------



## 1290423

shadowmare said:


> I know that very well but how does that change the fact that her life is being directly affected by Brexit already?... is it insignificant or irrelevant because she's polish? Or is it because she lives in Gibraltar and not somewhere in England?


Wow! What an attitude!
So are you suggesting that every person currently living in the EU should be permitted to vote on any matter in any country that 'could' affect them?

Or have I misread and you are relying to us how 'others' feel

Many of whom we have sympathy for.


----------



## Elles

Well, Gibraltar doesn't want to be part of Spain. They think the Spanish government is too controlling and corrupt. Even Eu citizens living in Gibraltar don't want to be part of Spain, but rather Britain and self determination. Gibraltar were given the choice and celebrate their National day. 

The referendum was I suggest, a similar thing on a slightly larger scale. Brits don't want to be part of what they see as a corrupt and controlling Eu and voted against it.

Of course pretty much everyone, including many of the Spanish, agree that the Spanish government is corrupt and controlling. Not everyone thinks the same of the Eu and Britain leaving the Eu will have a more far reaching effect and affect many more people than would Gibraltar and Britain agreeing to Spain's offer of joint rule.


----------



## rona

I'm afraid I don't care at the moment . I'm floating on a cloud today


----------



## Satori

Dr Pepper said:


> Have to agree with that WHEN Netflix tell me what other providers I can use (imagine the huge surcharge I'd have to pay to use Amazon Prime), how much extra I have to pay the other providers, insist that to use Netflix I have to allow my neighbors unrestricted access to my home to watch it, charge me a massive surcharge so poorer families can watch it for free and to top it off tell me what I can and can't do in my own house when I'm not watching Netflix.
> 
> Anyone signing up for that?


I would be hoping that my leaving Netflix would cause sufficient financial and structural strain that the whole sorry mess failed.


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> I'm afraid I don't care at the moment . I'm floating on a cloud today


Is there room for another


----------



## Satori

Dr Pepper said:


> But we were voting for what we believed was best for the U.K as a whole, not a small minority's personal circumstances.


I'd go further. I voted for what I believe is best for the world as a whole. I am mildly interested in the fate of the UK because I live here atm. Probably won't die here though. France looks the best option eventually. Wherever it be from though, I just hope to see the day that the EU collapses.


----------



## rona

DT said:


> Is there room for another


No,.....you get your own


----------



## Satori




----------



## Elles

Satori said:


> I'd go further. I voted for what I believe is best for the world as a whole. I am mildly interested in the fate of the UK because I live here atm. Probably won't die here though. France looks the best option eventually. Wherever it be from though, I just hope to see the day that the EU collapses.


Slightly related, did anyone watch this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0962gny

Panorama investigates the African migrant trade and reveals the extraordinary scale of people-smuggling across sub-Saharan Africa - a multibillion-pound industry described by some as a new 'slave trade'. As the EU desperately tries to cut the number of migrants crossing the Mediterranean, reporter Benjamin Zand investigates how hundreds of millions of euros of EU funding is being spent and asks if EU efforts to tackle the smugglers could be leaving some migrants in an ever more dangerous limbo.

He reveals how hard it will be to stop the trade, which employs millions of people in some of the world's poorest countries. Ben traces the smuggling route from the shores of Libya, the gateway to Europe and one of the most brutal places on the migrant trail, back through the ghettos in the deserts of Niger, where the local economy is dependent upon human trafficking.

He finishes the investigation in Nigeria, where many begin their journey and where young girls are committing themselves to years of prostitution to pay their way to Europe. On his journey Ben hears the tragic stories of the migrants themselves and confronts the smugglers making fortunes from this criminal trade.


----------



## Dr Pepper

rona said:


> No,.....you get your own


That's a bit mean.

Here @Satori have one of mine I've got plenty today.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Well, Gibraltar doesn't want to be part of Spain. They think the Spanish government is too controlling and corrupt. Even Eu citizens living in Gibraltar don't want to be part of Spain, but rather Britain and self determination. Gibraltar were given the choice and celebrate their National day.
> 
> The referendum was I suggest, a similar thing on a slightly larger scale. Brits don't want to be part of what they see as a corrupt and controlling Eu and voted against it.
> 
> Of course pretty much everyone, including many of the Spanish, agree that the Spanish government is corrupt and controlling. Not everyone thinks the same of the Eu and Britain leaving the Eu will have a more far reaching effect and affect many more people than would Gibraltar and Britain agreeing to Spain's offer of joint rule.


No to joined sovereignty.
Definitely NO.

By the way my family here is British and Gibraltarian, which sort of seal my fate.
If you look in my passport seems I am too.
Everyone who works in Gibraltar is affected by pound to euro exchange.

We are not temporarily British.
We are British.

Just like Londoners who also voted to Remain.
Gibraltar is my home now and I have no other even if I was not born there.

It is so sad to see rapidly falling revenue and unemployment rising fast.

Very worrying for ordinary people, especially with a few mouths to feed.

Even Spanish do not trust their politicians, but it is immaterial.

We are not Spanish. No more than French or Portuguese are. We just have Spain as neighbours.

Bullying neighbours.

Brexit is a total mess.








Built on BJ's lies.
And where is Farage?
Laughing somewhere far, far away?

Living well of his EU unearned pay?

Under the wing of his next BFF?

I am watching" Victoria". How much effort has she made to forge connections between Britain and Europe.
She truly was making Britain great in many ways.

Do not think she would be amused by Brexit.

By the way what about all EU nationals who contributed very significantly to your prosperity?

Do they have right to prosper too?


----------



## Elles

The majority of British people want Eu citizens in Britain to have the choice to stay and the same security as everyone else. People didn't dump ethics, morals and compassion in the ballot box alongside their vote. Not even if they voted to leave the Eu. The Eu is not Europe.

What in any of my posts (or anyone else's) makes anyone think that Brexit was built on what Boris Johnson says? It's been denied until people are blue in the face. 

The only people saying it are Remainers and I presume they didn't take any notice of him either.


----------



## shadowmare

Elles said:


> The majority of British people want Eu citizens in Britain to have the choice to stay and the same security as everyone else. People didn't dump ethics, morals and compassion in the ballot box alongside their vote. Not even if they voted to leave the Eu. The Eu is not Europe.
> 
> What in any of my posts (or anyone else's) makes anyone think that Brexit was built on what Boris Johnson says? It's been denied until people are blue in the face.
> 
> The only people saying it are Remainers and I presume they didn't take any notice of him either.


I think the feeling comes from any of worries that me or cheeky have expressed in the past being dismissed as spreading "gloom and doom" and the weird idea that we (EU citizens living, contributing and wanting to stay in UK) should be just quiet and wait and see. Why? Because apparently, to the British it seems like the stuff said by the politics in the papers should be enough to reassure us. Sorry, but the stuff said by TM or any other politician down south to me is cheaper than the Tesco's own toilet paper. 
I've even be told that if I want to stay in UK then I should get a British citizenship if I'm so worried... and since my country doesn't allow a dual citizenship, I should take it up with my government instead of being gloomy. 
It doesn't matter if the "majority" of British supposedly values our contribution. Such attitude even from a few people is enough to feel unwelcome - any issues that we face, are our own issues and no one gives a crap. 9 years ago I found it easy enough to laugh it off any time a coworker at a bar would make a silly joke about Easter Europeans coming and stealing jobs, unfortunately these days it's no longer funny and even though I don't encounter that in Scotland, it was just enough for me to make a decision to move away from UK.


----------



## rona

http://chronicle.gi/2017/09/gsd-attacks-govts-record-on-tourism/

https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/sites/default/files/HMGoG_Documents/EMP.16.pdf

The facts don't back up that Brexit is doing harm to Gibraltar. The Spanish maybe but not Brexit

https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/statistics-topic-area


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> http://chronicle.gi/2017/09/gsd-attacks-govts-record-on-tourism/
> 
> https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/sites/default/files/HMGoG_Documents/EMP.16.pdf
> 
> The facts don't back up that Brexit is doing harm to Gibraltar. The Spanish maybe but not Brexit
> 
> https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/statistics-topic-area


The Spanish are causing havoc with tourism, true. We all know that, and that Spain is using Brexit as leverage in the Gibraltar situation. But scrippy isn't talking about tourism, she's talking about other industries which are being negatively affected by Brexit.


----------



## rona




----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> The Spanish are causing havoc with tourism, true. We all know that, and that Spain is using Brexit as leverage in the Gibraltar situation. But scrippy isn't talking about tourism, she's talking about other industries which are being negatively affected by Brexit.


One of those links shows the fall in unemployment and another gives all the government statistics. I cannot have covered it in more detail


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> http://chronicle.gi/2017/09/gsd-attacks-govts-record-on-tourism/
> 
> https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/sites/default/files/HMGoG_Documents/EMP.16.pdf
> 
> The facts don't back up that Brexit is doing harm to Gibraltar. The Spanish maybe but not Brexit
> 
> https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/statistics-topic-area


@rona come and see for yourself.
Not what this or that daily rag says.

I will take good care of you. VIP. Promise.x

Funds for new schools, badly needed, funds for students, new housing estates are now under a cloud.

Big employers like Gala Bingo are moving away.
Banks - after Barclays, Norwich &Peterborough , RBS - Newcastle is closing.

What about EU airspace vital for our airport?
Now in case of bad weather - common very strong winds in Straits - our planes land in Malaga and people come by bus.
It means landing in Morocco and waiting...
Not what anyone will want!

Our Little Britain can.only survive if a deal is reached.

With no joined sovereignty.
Imagine" joint sovereignty" with Germany, Vichy style...would you want it?


----------



## 1290423

Satori said:


> I'd go further. I voted for what I believe is best for the world as a whole. I am mildly interested in the fate of the UK because I live here atm. Probably won't die here though. France looks the best option eventually. Wherever it be from though, I just hope to see the day that the EU collapses.


Pretty much the same here too.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> No to joined sovereignty.
> Definitely NO.
> 
> By the way my family here is British and Gibraltarian, which sort of seal my fate.
> If you look in my passport seems I am too.
> Everyone who works in Gibraltar is affected by pound to euro exchange.
> 
> We are not temporarily British.
> We are British.
> 
> Just like Londoners who also voted to Remain.
> Gibraltar is my home now and I have no other even if I was not born there.
> 
> It is so sad to see rapidly falling revenue and unemployment rising fast.
> 
> Very worrying for ordinary people, especially with a few mouths to feed.
> 
> Even Spanish do not trust their politicians, but it is immaterial.
> 
> We are not Spanish. No more than French or Portuguese are. We just have Spain as neighbours.
> 
> Bullying neighbours.
> 
> Brexit is a total mess.
> View attachment 325826
> 
> Built on BJ's lies.
> And where is Farage?
> Laughing somewhere far, far away?
> 
> Living well of his EU unearned pay?
> 
> Under the wing of his next BFF?
> 
> I am watching" Victoria". How much effort has she made to forge connections between Britain and Europe.
> She truly was making Britain great in many ways.
> 
> Do not think she would be amused by Brexit.
> 
> By the way what about all EU nationals who contributed very significantly to your prosperity?
> 
> Do they have right to prosper too?


Nah! Your a orrible pf member.
But we luvs you really xx


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Pretty much the same here too.


And Asia will take over.
Possibly inevitable. But will it be good for the planet? Human rights ?
Animal rights?
I very much doubt it seeing China's etc record on those matters.

This is why I voted Remain.

Collapse of EU and USA will definitely change the world. 
Our democracy might be flawed but still better than tyranny, corrupt regimes and totalitarian communism.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Nah! Your a orrible pf member.
> But we luvs you really xx


Mwah back at ya. X


----------



## Elles

Things like some big gambling companies relocating some of their activities out of Gibraltar was happening before Brexit and tax and merger related. Barclays and other banks were moving before the referendum too.

There are plenty of things that need sorting out, but not everything is related to the Eu and Brexit. The uk government will have to invest and provide grants for schools and that kind of thing rather than the Eu after Brexit I expect.

I would think that tourism and the weak pound has had the biggest effect. Tourism was affected by border delays, the weak pound, outdated electronic goods in the shops and terrorism apparently. Hopefully it will pick up again. 40% of people working in Gibraltar live in Spain in areas where unemployment is pretty bad.

There is talk of some British companies and people currently living and operating from Eu countries relocating to Gibraltar after Brexit, for easier access to the uk market. So hopefully this will fill gaps where there are any. House prices are increasing and its been suggested that this could be a contributory factor.

I hope people aren't leaving Gibraltar and dumping their cats. 

Its quite interesting to read debates, articles and public opinion from 9 or 10 years ago. Long before the referendum, Boris' bus and the migrant crisis. The leave vote was inevitable imo.


----------



## KittenKong

View from Canada.
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/theresa-may-weak-post-brexit-trade-deals-1.4294708









And news more locally....
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...group-eu-single-market?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## Elles

A relatively high number of insurance is underwritten by companies in Gibraltar.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> That's why I think @Goblin is so upset, it's for purely selfish reasons.


Too bad you are totally wrong then isn't it. I live in Germany and have done long enough with enough paperwork (germany requires you to register even under free movement rules) to qualify for permanent residence, as anyone else who has lived in an EU country for 5 years is eligible for. Nationalism and scapegoating things like "free movement" for government mistakes isn't as common here. We are welcome, not counted as a problem.

Financially brexit to me doesn't matter one way or the other. It does affect others in my family, my parents on their pension for example. Simple inflation will hit them hard. Problems with the NHS understaffing may hit them hard. I have another family member who lives on the irish/NI border who works between the two. Guess how they feel at the moment.

In short, Brexit has minimal affect on me no matter how negotiations work out. So try again. I simply don't like my country being harmed because people cannot actually use logic, reason and truth preferring lies and spin. This over what was an inter political party sqabble. Promises of benefits which have been shown to be false or based on lies are not valid reasons to leave. 350 million for the NHS may have been a reason. It's been shown to be a false one despite BJ and Gove raising it again recently. Repeating lies doesn't make them any more true than the first time.


----------



## Elles

Might be nice if some of these multi National money, money, money corporations clear off. Give us back some space. People spend their lives on the hamster wheel, chasing ever larger amounts of money. They aren't happy. If it's all about the money and the economy, Ireland and the poorer Eu countries need it more than we do. We can probably afford to lose a few.

Bermuda registered company, lol. Wonder why that is.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> What in any of my posts (or anyone else's) makes anyone think that Brexit was built on what Boris Johnson says?


Most of the reasons given to leave are variations of the leave campaign mottos.



Elles said:


> Might be nice if some of these multi National money, money, money corporations clear off.


Why would they.. they now are likely to have a tax haven and a government that they can bribe or even possibly sue.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> A relatively high number of insurance is underwritten by companies in Gibraltar.


Which employ lots of Brits/ locals.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Most of the reasons given to leave are variations of the leave campaign mottos.
> 
> Why would they.. they now are likely to have a tax haven and a government that they can bribe or even possibly sue.


They are doing. I was responding to the post about an insurance underwriter moving to Ireland. An insurance underwriter registered in Bermuda.


----------



## Elles

It just goes to show how many corporations base their locality on tax and don't give a stuff really. No wonder we have to have a minimum wage set. Even then some of them use people in some fake self employed manner.

It's all coming out in the wash.

I'm sorry your family are worried about pensions and the NHS @Goblin .  I don't think the Eu would save them though. That's down to what government we vote in.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Too bad you are totally wrong then isn't it. I live in Germany and have done long enough with enough paperwork (germany requires you to register even under free movement rules) to qualify for permanent residence, as anyone else who has lived in an EU country for 5 years is eligible for. Nationalism and scapegoating things like "free movement" for government mistakes isn't as common here. We are welcome, not counted as a problem.
> 
> Financially brexit to me doesn't matter one way or the other. It does affect others in my family, my parents on their pension for example. Simple inflation will hit them hard. Problems with the NHS understaffing may hit them hard. I have another family member who lives on the irish/NI border who works between the two. Guess how they feel at the moment.
> 
> In short, Brexit has minimal affect on me no matter how negotiations work out. So try again. I simply don't like my country being harmed because people cannot actually use logic, reason and truth preferring lies and spin. This over what was an inter political party sqabble. Promises of benefits which have been shown to be false or based on lies are not valid reasons to leave. 350 million for the NHS may have been a reason. It's been shown to be a false one despite BJ and Gove raising it again recently. Repeating lies doesn't make them any more true than the first time.


Well just stop your whinging then and let the UK get on with it, as you say it effects you so little it's of no consequence. You keep out of our affairs and, as we voted for, we'll keep out of your's. You've chosen the EU, enjoy.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Too bad you are totally wrong then isn't it. I live in Germany and have done long enough with enough paperwork (germany requires you to register even under free movement rules) to qualify for permanent residence, as anyone else who has lived in an EU country for 5 years is eligible for. Nationalism and scapegoating things like "free movement" for government mistakes isn't as common here. We are welcome, not counted as a problem.
> 
> Financially brexit to me doesn't matter one way or the other. It does affect others in my family, my parents on their pension for example. Simple inflation will hit them hard. Problems with the NHS understaffing may hit them hard. I have another family member who lives on the irish/NI border who works between the two. Guess how they feel at the moment.
> 
> In short, Brexit has minimal affect on me no matter how negotiations work out. So try again. I simply don't like my country being harmed because people cannot actually use logic, reason and truth preferring lies and spin. This over what was an inter political party sqabble. Promises of benefits which have been shown to be false or based on lies are not valid reasons to leave. 350 million for the NHS may have been a reason. It's been shown to be a false one despite BJ and Gove raising it again recently. Repeating lies doesn't make them any more true than the first time.


Read reports going back 9, 10 or even more years. Dissatisfaction with the Eu and where it was heading was being expressed long before the referendum spin. Every anti Eu article has supporting posts from members of the public, where the public were invited to comment. This has been going on far longer than the lead up to the referendum.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Read reports going back 9, 10 or even more years. Dissatisfaction with the Eu and where it was heading was being expressed long before the referendum spin. Every anti Eu article has supporting posts from members of the public, where the public were invited to comment. This has been going on far longer than the lead up to the referendum.


Well the media do a good job in persuading people to their way of thinking. They have hated the EEC/EU for as long as I can remember.

Question for you: When did you last see a newspaper article that praised the EU?

The Express held their "Get Britain Out of the EU" campaign for many years as an example.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Well the media do a good job in persuading people to their way of thinking. They have hated the EEC/EU for as long as I can remember.
> 
> Question for you: When did you last see a newspaper article that praised the EU?
> 
> The Express held their "Get Britain Out of the EU" campaign for many years as an example.


I don't read newspapers, let alone newspapers like the Sun, or the Express, perish the thought. 

Your question made me examine why not and I'm afraid I concluded that I am a terrible snob who thinks newspapers are for common people to wipe their bottoms with. :Arghh

Norman Tebbit didn't like the Eu. He liked Maggie's vision of it, but felt it was instead heading towards a federal state destroying the identity of individuals and countries.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View from Canada.
> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/theresa-may-weak-post-brexit-trade-deals-1.4294708
> View attachment 325858
> 
> 
> And news more locally....
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...group-eu-single-market?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> View attachment 325859


Well thats a misleading headline because the Candian PM was saying on the news he was looking forward to getting swift trade deal with the UK post Brexit. See how the press sh** steers.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> Well just stop your whinging then and let the UK get on with it, as you say it effects you so little it's of no consequence. You keep out of our affairs and, as we voted for, we'll keep out of your's. You've chosen the EU, enjoy.


Well said.
I have been wondering for 15 to 16 months now why Goblin is so worried living in Germany when his status is secure. Brexit does not affect him and he hasn't lived here for 15 plus years hence he couldn't vote.

Give the people that voted for Brexit get what they voted for and let's get out of the EU. The sooner the better in my opinion.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Well just stop your whinging then and let the UK get on with it, as you say it effects you so little it's of no consequence. You keep out of our affairs and, as we voted for, we'll keep out of your's. You've chosen the EU, enjoy.


So unable to discuss in an adult manner, back to "we won the vote". It is my affair in case you missed it, I am british. May not directly affect me but I am a patriot who wants what is best for the country and it's population. What's the matter.. proof your accusations have been blown out the water didn't sit well.

The idea that common sense loses out to spin and lies isn't a concern to you obviously. Too proud to admit things are going wrong. Too proud to actually look at the reality of what you voted for. UK is worse off and will be worse off, not just financially. Tragedy is your support for politicians who view and treat the people they represent as stupid. You were not simply lied to, you continually are lied to and so long as you can hang on to something are prepared to simply accept. Why is it the government has hidden reports on the consequences of brexit? Why is it you and others need to cling to spin?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> So unable to discuss in an adult manner, back to "we won the vote". It is my affair in case you missed it, I am british. May not directly affect me but I am a patriot who wants what is best for the country and it's population. What's the matter.. proof your accusations have been blown out the water didn't sit well.
> 
> The idea that common sense loses out to spin and lies isn't a concern to you obviously. Too proud to admit things are going wrong. Too proud to actually look at the reality of what you voted for. UK is worse off and will be worse off, not just financially. Tragedy is your support for politicians who view and treat the people they represent as stupid. You were not simply lied to, you continually are lied to and so long as you can hang on to something are prepared to simply accept. Why is it the government has hidden reports on the consequences of brexit? Why is it you and others need to cling to spin?


You've got that so back-to-front.

You've shown your true colours as a selfish expat who isn't as sure as you make out as to your residential status in Germany post Brexit. Hence your continued claims the referendum was just a "opinion poll" (it wasn't). You also obviously realise your tax commitment in the EU will have to increase as the UK is one of the few net contributors so you'll be financially worse off, again selfish. The leave camp were told time and again how much worse off we'd be if we voted Brexit (was it £4.000 per annum per household?) yet we were happy to take that risk for the benefit of the country.

As I said I understand your concerns, but the referendum was a vote for the future of the UK, not the status of a minority of expats across twenty eight countries, all of whom will always have their home nations to return to. Just the same as if you emigrated to another country outside the EU and their rules changed. Nothing was ever guaranteed, hence why article 50 exists.

As a heads up, things aren't going wrong, we voted leave and we are leaving, that's a positive result. If our politicians thought we were stupid, we'll that turned round to bite them on arse as we voted the opposite way they wished, your argument falls flat there.

The government has "hidden reports on the consequences of Brexit", perhaps it's either because no one actually knows the consequences (and that's the actual reality) so they are worthless, or they don't actually exist. That's why they are "hidden".

I'm sorry if the vote for the future of the UK and it's future generations upset you. But you chose to set up home elsewhere because for whatever reason you thought life would be better there. So get on with your life in the EU (which you claim is so secure and enshrined in EU law) and let those that chose to remain in the U.K get on with their's.

If you are so cock-sure Brexit is bad for the UK and will have little effect on the EU I'm surprised you seem so concerned. Very odd position you have taken, it makes no sense.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Norman Tebbit didn't like the Eu. He liked Maggie's vision of it, but felt it was instead heading towards a federal state destroying the identity of individuals and countries.


The Chingford Skinhead didn't like anyone bar his own from what I remember.

Much of this paranoia from the media too of course. I was in Paris a couple of weeks ago and assure all it's as French as ever.

I suppose many long for the days before the EEC/EU where countries were frequently at war with each other.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> So unable to discuss in an adult manner, back to "we won the vote". It is my affair in case you missed it, I am british. May not directly affect me but I am a patriot who wants what is best for the country and it's population. What's the matter.. proof your accusations have been blown out the water didn't sit well.
> 
> The idea that common sense loses out to spin and lies isn't a concern to you obviously. Too proud to admit things are going wrong. Too proud to actually look at the reality of what you voted for. UK is worse off and will be worse off, not just financially. Tragedy is your support for politicians who view and treat the people they represent as stupid. You were not simply lied to, you continually are lied to and so long as you can hang on to something are prepared to simply accept. Why is it the government has hidden reports on the consequences of brexit? Why is it you and others need to cling to spin?


Odd this may sound but I sometimes feel sorry for Brextremists. They're holding on to a dream perhaps even they possibly know deep down could fail beyond badly hence resorting to personal insults towards those who live in the real world.

Wishing something to work won't make it work......


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Wishing something to work won't make it work......


Quite, it's why we wanted out of the EU


----------



## KittenKong

Laughable!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Laughable!
> View attachment 325923
> View attachment 325924


You do jump about with your links/views don't you?

One minute you are saying that CETA is the spawn of the devil and next, a great trade deal that the UK will miss out on, even though Canadian and UK prime minsters have agreed to trade after Brexit.

That's unless the EU shows it's true colours and protectionism to try and scupper our deal


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Big hoo ha about Boris and his Brexit article in the The Telegraph .
> Its like watching a chimpanzees tea party on board the Titanic.


This is brilliant by the Times on the vile creature.
























Elles said:


> Russian bots? Gathering information about my shopping habits, or politics? Or brainwashing the masses through twitter?
> 
> I would bet anything you like, not one person voted Leave because the Russians told them to, or even influenced them. I'd think it was a bit sad if someone voted Remain, because they were afraid of the Russians.
> 
> We know that fear of Brexit, particularly amongst Remainers, slowed growth for a while. We know the Brexit vote upset the applecart and people weren't prepared for it. We haven't done it yet.


You don't think Russian bots & shills had any influence of the Presidential election in the USA either Elles?

I'm not suggesting anyone on here was influenced by the astroturfers as its clear the main leave contributors on this thread had made their mind up before the referendum campaigning had even began.

Can you provide references that 'fear of brexit particularly amongst remainers' slowed growth please?



Calvine said:


> I give up; I really do! Paranoid, much?


I'm afraid the evidence is there if you look outside your box Calvine. I've had dealings with plenty of astroturfers myself!

Even ex tory MP & staunch brexiteer Louise Mensch knew Putin bots were pushing brexit during the EU referendum. She chose to keep quite until after the result


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> They would like that then there would be no-one to stand in their way and they could get what they want


If things are going to be so great outside the EU can you explain why are the government hiding their own 50 brexit impact studies?


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> If things are going to be so great outside the EU can you explain why are the government hiding their own 50 brexit impact studies?


Actually it's really really simple. If they are "hiding" impact studies (are they really?) it'll be because they know from experience their "studies" for the immediate impact on the UK following a leave vote were so far from reality they are worthless and open to ridicule.

Additionally there can be no credible "impact studies" until all deals have (or have not) be done. So once again they are worthless.


----------



## Honeys mum

Dr Pepper said:


> I'm sorry if the vote for the future of the UK and it's future generations upset you. But you chose to set up home elsewhere because for whatever reason you thought life would be better there. So get on with your life in the EU (which you claim is so secure and enshrined in EU law) and let those that chose to remain in the U.K get on with their's.
> 
> If you are so cock-sure Brexit is bad for the UK and will have little effect on the EU I'm surprised you seem so concerned. Very odd position you have taken, it makes no sense.


Very well put Dr.Pepper,couldn't agree more.


----------



## cheekyscrip

@Dr Pepper so if someone does not live in UK you think it is not their business?

You think it does not affect the rest of Europe and the world?
I
You are simply wrong.
Britain was a very important voice in EU and on the world forum. This voice is not loud enough anymore...because who listens to diminished Little Britain?

This loss of influence was the main reason why my OH voted for Remain.

By the way...so @Dr Pepper should never discuss any other country than UK.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> So unable to discuss in an adult manner, back to "we won the vote".


I don't see where @Dr Pepper said, or even implied ''we won the vote''.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> resorting to personal insults towards those who live in the real world.


The remainers, of course, are being invariably polite to the ones who voted leave? You cannot seriously believe that!


----------



## Dr Pepper

cheekyscrip said:


> @Dr Pepper so if someone does not live in UK you think it is not their business?
> 
> You think it does not affect the rest of Europe and the world?
> I
> You are simply wrong.


Not at all. What is very wrong is people ineligible to vote and living in another country continually banging on about how we are a bunch of racist dullards who didn't know what we were voting for. The reasons we voted do not concern them. Sure discuss the outcome, don't belittle the voting population though.


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> racist dullards


You forgot 'working class'.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> So unable to discuss in an adult manner, back to "we won the vote". It is my affair in case you missed it, I am british. May not directly affect me but I am a patriot who wants what is best for the country and it's population. What's the matter.. proof your accusations have been blown out the water didn't sit well.
> 
> The idea that common sense loses out to spin and lies isn't a concern to you obviously. Too proud to admit things are going wrong. Too proud to actually look at the reality of what you voted for. UK is worse off and will be worse off, not just financially. Tragedy is your support for politicians who view and treat the people they represent as stupid. You were not simply lied to, you continually are lied to and so long as you can hang on to something are prepared to simply accept. Why is it the government has hidden reports on the consequences of brexit? Why is it you and others need to cling to spin?


Total twaddle at its puriest


----------



## Bisbow

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually it's really really simple. If they are "hiding" impact studies (are they really?) it'll be because they know from experience their "studies" for the immediate impact on the UK following a leave vote were so far from reality they are worthless and open to ridicule.
> 
> Additionally there can be no credible "impact studies" until all deals have (or have not) be done. So once again they are worthless.


You answered that far better than I could have

Thank you


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually it's really really simple. If they are "hiding" impact studies (are they really?) it'll be because they know from experience their "studies" for the immediate impact on the UK following a leave vote were so far from reality they are worthless and open to ridicule.
> 
> Additionally there can be no credible "impact studies" until all deals have (or have not) be done. So once again they are worthless.


They are refusing to publish them. Those 50 impact studies are the people's property, not the government's. We have an absolute right to see them. You may prefer to have your head stuck in the sand, but for the sake of my children, I will fight for my right to see them.

There is no logic at all to your reasoning for not being allowed to see them lol. Impact studies are carried out all the time to evaluate the consequences of actions. Its a bad government that pushes through policies without carrying out impact studies or does them then still ignores them! But then which of this governments policies AREN'T ideologically driven? The assessment studies are 'ours' we have every right to know the consequences of what we have voted for.

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* Sep 5

My Question to David Davis: will he publish the impact assessments on #*Brexit* that his department has seen?
Or is he worried about looking 'silly'?


----------



## Elles

@noushka05

The proof is all around us. As we haven't left yet, anything bad is due to fear of Brexit and pessimism. It has to be. We're still in the he Eu. Just as anything good would be down to optimism about the opportunities of Brexit. That is those things that actually relate to Brexit of course. The Brexit vote is taking more credit and being blamed more than it deserves imo.

I wouldn't see any Russian tweets, because I don't have twitter. Who is most likely to be influenced by twitter and social media? It did the Russians a lot of good then didn't it?

Large companies uprooting and spending on relocation now, it seems to me have ulterior motives unrelated to Brexit. Ireland are not happy about the Eu plans to equalise taxes across the Eu, because companies, especially Internet based companies set up there for the low taxes. A Bermuda registered insurance underwriter moving to Ireland for easy access to the Eu after Brexit. Don't make laugh.

There is no reason to publish poor projections by economists assessing worse case scenario when our government are negotiating with the Eu and world wide. They're probably wrong and could have a negative effect. Caroline Lucas wants to stay in the Eu, so anything, however tenuous, that could help her cause she'll probably want out in the public domain. I very much like her and hesitate to say anything against her, but I'm not sure she's being honest with herself on this. The government need to know worse case scenario so they can prepare for all eventualities. The Eu and World markets don't need to see it.

More punitive than probative they'd say on svu.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> You've got that so back-to-front.
> 
> You've shown your true colours as a selfish expat who isn't as sure as you make out as to your residential status in Germany post Brexit. Hence your continued claims the referendum was just a "opinion poll" (it wasn't). You also obviously realise your tax commitment in the EU will have to increase as the UK is one of the few net contributors so you'll be financially worse off, again selfish. The leave camp were told time and again how much worse off we'd be if we voted Brexit (was it £4.000 per annum per household?) yet we were happy to take that risk for the benefit of the country.


Really desparate aren't you. Maybe you should look up permenent residency in the EU. You know facts. Interesting that since the referendum it's become not "it's a lie" that people in the UK are going to be worse off (seems even you no longer ignore that evidence) but that "you are prepared to accept it".



> As I said I understand your concerns, but the referendum was a vote for the future of the UK, not the status of a minority of expats across twenty eight countries, all of whom will always have their home nations to return to. Just the same as if you emigrated to another country outside the EU and their rules changed. Nothing was ever guaranteed, hence why article 50 exists.


Yet unable to show how the UK will be better off.



> As a heads up, things aren't going wrong


Maybe look at the facts rather than goviernment spin.. I forget, facts are something you avoid.



> The government has "hidden reports on the consequences of Brexit", perhaps it's either because no one actually knows the consequences (and that's the actual reality) so they are worthless, or they don't actually exist. That's why they are "hidden".


So they spend tax money on them and simply decide to abandon them. Yep.. you really are grasping at straws there.



> If you are so cock-sure Brexit is bad for the UK and will have little effect on the EU I'm surprised you seem so concerned. Very odd position you have taken, it makes no sense.


So back to that. Maybe you are not, I am a british patriot. You do not have to live in a country to be one. I get it, you don't like facts so you want to have something you can hide behind.



Dr Pepper said:


> Actually it's really really simple. If they are "hiding" impact studies (are they really?) it'll be because they know from experience their "studies" for the immediate impact on the UK following a leave vote were so far from reality they are worthless and open to ridicule.


Grasping as mentioned. They commissioned and spent tax money on them looking to experts, those experts the UK will be relying upon in the future. Then the reports don't get published. Governments don't do that unless they do not like the results and it goes against what they are saying and pushing for.



> Additionally there can be no credible "impact studies" until all deals have (or have not) be done. So once again they are worthless.


Never heard the term "if.. then"? Fairly easy for most people.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> @noushka05
> 
> The proof is all around us. As we haven't left yet, anything bad is due to fear of Brexit and pessimism. It has to be. We're still in the he Eu. Just as anything good would be down to optimism about the opportunities of Brexit. That is those things that actually relate to Brexit of course. The Brexit vote is taking more credit and being blamed more than it deserves imo.
> 
> I wouldn't see any Russian tweets, because I don't have twitter. Who is most likely to be influenced by twitter and social media? It did the Russians a lot of good then didn't it?
> 
> Large companies uprooting and spending on relocation now, it seems to me have ulterior motives unrelated to Brexit. Ireland are not happy about the Eu plans to equalise taxes across the Eu, because companies, especially Internet based companies set up there for the low taxes. A Bermuda registered insurance underwriter moving to Ireland for easy access to the Eu after Brexit. Don't make laugh.
> 
> There is no reason to publish poor projections by economists assessing worse case scenario when our government are negotiating with the Eu and world wide. They're probably wrong and could have a negative effect. Caroline Lucas wants to stay in the Eu, so anything, however tenuous, that could help her cause she'll probably want out in the public domain. I very much like her and hesitate to say anything against her, but I'm not sure she's being honest with herself on this. The government need to know worse case scenario so they can prepare for all eventualities. The Eu and World markets don't need to see it.
> 
> More punitive than probative they'd say on svu.


Then you're not paying attention. Open your eyes Elles, the affects of brexit are already being felt. No amount of optimism will save us. Heck, the government doesnt even have a plan!

I have already said I don't think you were influenced, but tens of thousands of people are on social media & we know Russia is using it as a weapon to push elections their way.

Hillary Clinton did an article just yesterday on Cambridge Analyticas involvement in brexit.












Caroline Lucas is governed by her principles & by evidence. She firmly believes staying in the EU is better for the environment & for society, for the economy because shes objectively evaluated the evidence. Why do you think the overwhelming consensual position of the environmental movement, of the scientific community, economists, trusted public figures, respected academics are saying brexit is a disaster? You think its because they all have an underlying agenda? lol


----------



## noushka05

James O'Brien on why Boris Johnson is gagging to be sacked. This is brilliant.


----------



## Elles

Which people were more likely to be influenced by social media and twitter? Did they vote to leave the Eu? Were these suspected Russian bots successful? Nope. People reading tweets would be more likely to vote Remain I'd say. Certainly plenty of them did.

Academics, economists, scientists who benefit from the Eu would want to stay in the Eu. They have become so intertwined with it, that whether the Eu is good, or not, they would find it difficult to extricate themselves. What may be a disaster for them which I doubt and I think disaster is an exaggeration anyway, it could benefit millions in the uk and eventually worldwide. If our leaving teaches the Eu anything at all and I doubt that it has. I suspect it will try to tighten its grip even further.

What this country needs is a visionary to take us into the future. At the moment we're a country ruled by old men stuck in the past. The world is getting smaller, we can be a part of that world. Jeremy Corbyn isn't the right person, none have shown themselves yet, but I would agree we need to start moving away from your neoliberalism now. Leaving the Eu is the first step.

We aren't America. We weren't asked to choose between Donald and Hilary thank heaven. I think even we might have rebelled against that choice.


----------



## Bisbow

I wonder what right people who have left this country for what ever reason have to tell us who still live here to tell us how we should vote and live our lives

They left from choice and we stayed from choice

Then they tell us we are racists, homophobic, ignorant cretins etc, etc for wanting freedom from a corrupt organisation, one that wants to run every thing we say and do

I don't believe in dictatorship and that is what the EU want


----------



## 1290423

I don't do twitter
Twitter is for twits


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> I wonder what right people who have left this country for what ever reason have to tell us who still live here to tell us how we should vote and live our lives
> 
> They left from choice and we stayed from choice
> 
> Then they tell us we are racists, homophobic, ignorant cretins etc, etc for wanting freedom from a corrupt organisation, one that wants to run every thing we say and do
> 
> I don't believe in dictatorship and that is what the EU want


And they dont even deny it!
The united states of europe.


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> freedom from a corrupt organisation,


_'Brussels Laid Bare'_ gives a pretty fair insight into the corruption.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Really desparate aren't you. Maybe you should look up permenent residency in the EU. You know facts. Interesting that since the referendum it's become not "it's a lie" that people in the UK are going to be worse off (seems even you no longer ignore that evidence) but that "you are prepared to accept it".
> 
> Yet unable to show how the UK will be better off.
> 
> Maybe look at the facts rather than goviernment spin.. I forget, facts are something you avoid.
> 
> So they spend tax money on them and simply decide to abandon them. Yep.. you really are grasping at straws there.
> 
> So back to that. Maybe you are not, I am a british patriot. You do not have to live in a country to be one. I get it, you don't like facts so you want to have something you can hide behind.
> 
> Grasping as mentioned. They commissioned and spent tax money on them looking to experts, those experts the UK will be relying upon in the future. Then the reports don't get published. Governments don't do that unless they do not like the results and it goes against what they are saying and pushing for.
> 
> Never heard the term "if.. then"? Fairly easy for most people.


You obviously don't understand the term "grasping at straws". There are no straws for me to try and grasp. I voted leave and fully expect that to be total and absolute leave with no deals on anything whatsoever. Any deals are purely a bonus. Pray tell me what straws am I trying to grasp.

Now if I was continually posting that the referendum was non binding, that article 50 could be revoked or we could still have a soft Brexit that wouldn't change much, THEN you would be right I would be grasping at straws.

Hope that helps you understand the term "grasping at straws" so you can use it correctly in future


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> And Asia will take over..


I often watch the Asian markets and financial news on the BBC in the early hours. People might be surprised to see how many familiar names there are. It's not all Alibaba. There are a lot of Asian investors in the uk already. The chap who reports on it is nearly always cheerful and funny. I like him.

The little people rose up and said 'No more'. Its what usually happens when people get fed up and it usually brings about change. Change is long overdue. There have been mutterings and dissent over the big guns at the Eu for years. Let's just hope the conservatives don't sell us down the river, before someone pops up with a paddle.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> "it's a lie" that people in the UK are going to be worse off (seems even you no longer ignore that evidence) but that "you are prepared to accept it".


Everyone, and I mean 100% of people I know that voted out, realised that we would probably be worse of for some time, and yes, they were prepared to accept that to get out.


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> Hope that helps you understand the term "grasping at straws" so you can use it correctly in future


Don't count on it tho'. I certainly shall not be holding my breath.



Dr Pepper said:


> dullards


Love your choice of word here; 'dullard' is a great word and so under-used.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> nearly always cheerful and funny


Not like some of the people on this thread then!!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Which people were more likely to be influenced by social media and twitter? Did they vote to leave the Eu? Were these suspected Russian bots successful? Nope. People reading tweets would be more likely to vote Remain I'd say. Certainly plenty of them did.
> 
> Academics, economists, scientists who benefit from the Eu would want to stay in the Eu. They have become so intertwined with it, that whether the Eu is good, or not, they would find it difficult to extricate themselves. What may be a disaster for them which I doubt and I think disaster is an exaggeration anyway, it could benefit millions in the uk and eventually worldwide. If our leaving teaches the Eu anything at all and I doubt that it has. I suspect it will try to tighten its grip even further.
> 
> What this country needs is a visionary to take us into the future. At the moment we're a country ruled by old men stuck in the past. The world is getting smaller, we can be a part of that world. Jeremy Corbyn isn't the right person, none have shown themselves yet, but I would agree we need to start moving away from your neoliberalism now. Leaving the Eu is the first step.
> 
> We aren't America. We weren't asked to choose between Donald and Hilary thank heaven. I think even we might have rebelled against that choice.


How can you be so sure Russian astroturfers were unsuccessful? what evidence do you have to be so convinced?. The Russian bots & shills were pushing for brexit so obviously they had no influence on people who voted remain lol- . Even Tory Louise Mensch is honest enough to admit they played a part in the outcome of the result only she was pleased they helped to influence people.

And how do NGOs benefit from the EU? This derision of experts is extremely dangerous. Trump supporters use the same tactic - experts are wrong until they say something that doesnt challenge their extreme confirmation bias.

Strawman argument. No we aren't America but the same dark forces which influenced their Presidential election played their part in brexit too. Bernie Sanders was the obvious choice in those elections. When he had to step aside as much I could not abide Clinton, I would have used my vote tactically to try to block that lunatic Trump. The choice was clear to me.

I'm glad we can agree on the need to move away from the destructive ideology that is neoliberalism. How it can possibly be done outside the EU in the grip of an authoritarian government crammed with rabid neoliberals is beyond me though. We have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire Elles lol


----------



## Elles

Gosh, you're going to force my hand aren't you? Because young people are more likely to read twitter and social media and many young people voted Remain. So if the Russians were tweeting to get them to vote leave, they failed.

The masses voting to leave the Eu is proof that the masses aren't happy. The powers that be ignore it at their peril. In other countries we might be arrested for our dissent, in this country they give us a referendum. Much to their surprise and dismay the masses voted against them. Vive the masses.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> I wonder what right people who have left this country for what ever reason have to tell us who still live here to tell us how we should vote and live our lives
> 
> They left from choice and we stayed from choice
> 
> Then they tell us we are racists, homophobic, ignorant cretins etc, etc for wanting freedom from a corrupt organisation, one that wants to run every thing we say and do
> 
> *I don't believe in dictatorship and that is what the EU want*


You think the EU is a dictatorship? What about the tories repeal bill? It is nothing more than a right wing power grab, we have less democracy than ever Bisbow. All those brexit MPs screaming to make Parliament sovereign voted to make themselves sovereign instead of Parliament. We really do have the beginnings of dictatorship now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eresa-may-power-grab-parliament-a7943696.html


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Gosh, you're going to force my hand aren't you? Because young people are more likely to read twitter and social media and many young people voted Remain. So if the Russians were tweeting to get them to vote leave, they failed.
> 
> The masses voting to leave the Eu is proof that the masses aren't happy. The powers that be ignore it at their peril. In other countries we might be arrested for our dissent, in this country they give us a referendum. Much to their surprise and dismay the masses voted against them. Vive the masses.


So you have no evidence to support your beliefs - bit like brexit lol

The worst of powers that be were behind brexit. Some may say the masses played right into their hands. Look at the Mercer, Trump, Bannon, Putin Farage connection Elles. Research Liam Fox, Dark money, climate change, brexit.


----------



## Elles

Why? Why would I want to research a load of conspiracy theories, when I know that people didn't vote leave based on anything the Russians were or weren't up to? I'm not afraid of Russia. They're part of an ever shrinking world. Our bombs are as likely to kill civilians as theirs.

I'm saying that you're the one who said the young voted Remain. The young use twitter and Facebook, so any Russian campaign didn't work on them. Anyway, it wasn't the Russians, it was the Canadians.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Why? Why would I want to research a load of conspiracy theories, when I know that people didn't vote leave based on anything the Russians were or weren't up to? I'm not afraid of Russia. They're part of an ever shrinking world. Our bombs are as likely to kill civilians as theirs.
> 
> I'm saying that you're the one who said the young voted Remain. The young use twitter and Facebook, so any Russian campaign didn't work on them. Anyway, it wasn't the Russians, it was the Canadians.


Then you are choosing to be wilfully blind. You can try all you like to downplay them as conspiracy theories (again, just like Trump supporters do) - but the evidence is there & its real. Putin has weaponised fake news (& refugees) to powerful effect.

References - I've posted quite a few others on this thread.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41203789

http://uk.businessinsider.com/leave-eu-brexit-creepy-facebook-cambridge-analytica-2017-2?r=US&IR=T

Young & old alike use social media.

As I said, even tory Louise Mensch is honest enough to admit Putins influence on brexit.

ETA The bots are now pushing support for Rees Mogg! Think about that for a minute 

.

.


----------



## Elles

So you're saying an American Klan leader who voted for Trump did so because of Russian tweets? I would imagine Russian Oligarchs rather than Putin would be more interested in pushing for Rees-Mogg. Especially with the latest from the Lib-Dems.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> Well just stop your whinging then and let the UK get on with it, *as you say it effects you so little it's of no consequence*. You keep out of our affairs and, as we voted for, we'll keep out of your's. You've chosen the EU, enjoy.


So, it's not OK to have an opinion on or concerns about something that does not affect you personally as an individual, but DOES affect other people, perhaps even those you care about? That's kinda cold, ya know...



Dr Pepper said:


> You've got that so back-to-front.
> 
> You've shown your true colours as a *selfish expat* who isn't as sure as you make out as to your residential status in Germany post Brexit. Hence your continued claims the referendum was just a "opinion poll" (it wasn't). You also obviously realise your tax commitment in the EU will have to increase as the UK is one of the few net contributors so you'll be financially worse off, again selfish. *The leave camp were told time and again how much worse off we'd be if we voted Brexit (was it £4.000 per annum per household?) yet we were happy to take that risk for the benefit of the country.*


And are those of you who voted Leave also happy to take on the full financial burden of that risk on behalf of those who can't afford to be any worse off than they already are, should that come to pass? Or do they deserve it for not being well off enough to absorb increased costs?



Dr Pepper said:


> As I said I understand your concerns, but the referendum was a vote for the future of the UK, not the status of a minority of expats across twenty eight countries, all of whom will always have their home nations to return to. Just the same as if you emigrated to another country outside the EU and their rules changed. Nothing was ever guaranteed, hence why article 50 exists.
> 
> As a heads up, things aren't going wrong, *we voted leave and we are leaving, that's a positive result*. If our politicians thought we were stupid, we'll that turned round to bite them on arse as we voted the opposite way they wished, your argument falls flat there.


To you, yes. To others, no. My industry may be left short of essential high quality specialists if EU staff choose to leave, and these are not the kind of specialists you can train overnight. Or even in several years. Other non-EU overseas specialists are also considering leaving, or already doing so, because they no longer feel welcome here.



Dr Pepper said:


> The government has "hidden reports on the consequences of Brexit", perhaps it's either because no one actually knows the consequences (and that's the actual reality) so they are worthless, or they don't actually exist. That's why they are "hidden".


_Or_, they don't want you to know the contents because they wouldn't make positive reading. The simple solution is to publish them and let people decide for themselves.



Dr Pepper said:


> *I'm sorry if the vote for the future of the UK and it's future generations upset you*. But you chose to set up home elsewhere because for whatever reason you thought life would be better there. So get on with your life in the EU (which you claim is so secure and enshrined in EU law) and *let those that chose to remain in the U.K get on with their's*.


It's upset a lot of British people who live in the UK, too. Or don't they count - because they chose to Remain?



Dr Pepper said:


> If you are so cock-sure Brexit is bad for the UK and will have little effect on the EU I'm surprised you seem so concerned. Very odd position you have taken, it makes no sense.


So, Goblin is selfish for having concerns about the future wellbeing of others, not just themselves? _That _conclusion makes no logical sense.


----------



## MiffyMoo

I decided to cobble together a little line graph to compare the demographics of Twitter users vs. Brexit voters. If Russia and Cambridge Analytics really did do this campaign, I think it looks like they did a terrible job. Blue line is Twitter users; I'm rubbish at Excel


----------



## Elles

Europeans living and working in the Uk should not feel unwelcome. It seems it's worse for them in some areas than it is in others. With a zero tolerance on hate crime, any nastiness should be immediately stomped on. The majority of British people don't support this kind of behaviour or attitude.

Britain should have trained up more people. It's not as though we're short of them. How come other countries can train enough experts for themselves and a few for Britain, but Britain can't even manage to cover its own back. No wonder so many people in Britain were feeling disillusioned and listened to Jeremy. Poor show Britain. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Britain should not rely on countries like Spain and the Phillipines to train people for us.


----------



## 1290423

rona said:


> Everyone, and I mean 100% of people I know that voted out, realised that we would probably be worse of for some time, and yes, they were prepared to accept that to get out.


Myself and most people I know included


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> So you're saying an American Klan leader who voted for Trump did so because of Russian tweets? I would imagine Russian Oligarchs rather than Putin would be more interested in pushing for Rees-Mogg. Especially with the latest from the Lib-Dems.


No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm sure you would imagine that. Why don't you actually try looking objectively at the evidence instead of dismissing them as conspiracy theories?

_The astroturfers have taken over from the bots, but yes. Putin wants an end to European unity & Brexit is the thin end of that wedge_
_

/_


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I decided to cobble together a little line graph to compare the demographics of Twitter users vs. Brexit voters. If Russia and Cambridge Analytics really did do this campaign, I think it looks like they did a terrible job. Blue line is Twitter users; I'm rubbish at Excel
> 
> View attachment 325951


LOL


----------



## Elles

Britain leaving the Eu will not bring an end to European unity. The end of the Eu would not bring an end to European unity. It would more likely bring our countries and people closer together imo, when we aren't being forced down each other's throats and fighting over Eu spoils, but can instead come together in cooperation.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Britain leaving the Eu will not bring an end to European unity. The end of the Eu would not bring an end to European unity. It would more likely bring our countries and people closer together imo, when we aren't being forced down each other's throats and fighting over Eu spoils, but can instead come together in cooperation.


Europe was certainly united after World War I wasn't it.

And yes this time they will be European unity.

Only the UK won't be part of that...


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> Europe was certainly united after World War I wasn't it.
> 
> And yes this time they will be European unity.
> 
> Only the UK won't be part of that...


Please remind me! Who were britains allies in WW1

Or did you mean WW2


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Europeans living and working in the Uk should not feel unwelcome. It seems it's worse for them in some areas than it is in others. With a zero tolerance on hate crime, any nastiness should be immediately stomped on. The majority of British people don't support this kind of behaviour or attitude.


Indeed, but knowing that doesn't really help when you're on the receiving end of it. It's like any form of bullying, it's wrong and shouldn't happen, but it does, and few will step in to stop it when they see it.



Elles said:


> Britain should have trained up more people. It's not as though we're short of them. How come other countries can train enough experts for themselves and a few for Britain, but Britain can't even manage to cover its own back. No wonder so many people in Britain were feeling disillusioned and listened to Jeremy. Poor show Britain. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Britain should not rely on countries like Spain and the Phillipines to train people for us.


You can't force people to train in specific subjects, though. And you do have to have the right people to train, too. So the question would be better phrased as "Why are UK citizens not choosing to go into specialist areas, and what can we do to encourage them?"

When I was at school, for a few years it was mandatory for everyone to do CDT as part of their GCSEs because we weren't producing enough engineers. I always enjoyed it and would have done it anyway, but I doubt it had any real impact post-school.

Not that any educational measures will help in the short term, of course. But as a whole we in the UK do need to stop viewing doing well at school as a negative thing. I was on the receiving end of a LOT of bullying at school, mainly due to having a natural academic bent and getting good grades. Friends from other countries tell me that this is significantly different from their experience of schooling, where academic gifting is encouraged and celebrated, and not reined in or belittled.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> Not at all. What is very wrong is people ineligible to vote and living in another country continually banging on about how we are a bunch of racist dullards who didn't know what we were voting for. The reasons we voted do not concern them. Sure discuss the outcome, don't belittle the voting population though.


Really?
Your arguments are EXACTLY the same as those who tell me I have no right to voice my opinion about Poland. Heck, I still can even vote.

And express my opinion about vile idiots in current government in Poland.

You can take a horse out of the stable...but it is still a horse.

Of course it concerns us.


----------



## Elles

I'm sure British people sending their 18 year old sons to fight with Europe against a common enemy felt pretty united with the Europeans they fought beside and for. We went in to help and free Poland I believe, not treat them like second class citizens unwanted in Britain other than to do the underpaid dirty jobs no one else will. Allegedly.

No one is saying that anyone shouldn't voice their opinion about the referendum, the outcome, the likely effects. Wherever they live, or whoever they are. The post quoted asks to discuss the outcome, not belittle the voters.

What they don't like is the accusations levelled at leavers that they were somehow less informed and less thoughtful (to put it mildly) than those who voted Remain @cheekyscrip

So if you are telling voters in Poland that they are stupid, cruel, racist, thoughtless, uninformed, influenced by lies posted on banners, the Russians posting on Facebook, the darknet and nazis, only then would it would be exactly the same argument.

I would guess you aren't. You don't seem to be someone who would do that.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Really?
> Your arguments are EXACTLY the same as those who tell me I have no right to voice my opinion about Poland. Heck, I still can even vote.
> 
> And express my opinion about vile idiots in current government in Poland.
> 
> You can take a horse out of the stable...but it is still a horse.
> 
> Of course it concerns us.


Never ever cheeky, well not whilst ive got a hole in my bum will any country ever have a government that will keep the whole of its population happy. Looking at the UK alone and our three main parties, following vince cables recent speech, didn't listen to it but assuming there wS mention of the university fees, as someone later said well what about those that don't go to university? Straight away goes to show that keeping the students happy discounts the rest. Its the same in every country, hard line, soft line they always,have their followers. Why do you think DT is in power?
I seriously fear there is NO middle road. and the louder that one side shout the further the other side will dig in their heels. We are very fortunate to be allowed a vote and that we are able to do so without fear by allowing us this all have to accept there will be a winner and a loser and an acceptance by the minority, no matter how small that that's the end of the matter. What has happened here in the ln the past 18 month brexit voters have been told they are stupid, misled, uneducated, brainwashed, lied to they didnt read facts nor listen to the experts.

I actually feel that the criteria to be allowed to vote shoud be a lot more stricter as it happens, and no, I don't believe brits living out of the UK for a certain amount of time should be allowed to vote either and as for an opinion , why heck yes everyone's allowed one of those but no one's going to take a blind bit of notice and it's not going to make one iota of difference xxx 
Not aimed at you cheeky xx


----------



## 1290423

Think I was writing mine elles whilst you were posting your, yours just came out more eloquently


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Gosh, you're going to force my hand aren't you? Because young people are more likely to read twitter and social media and many young people voted Remain. So if the Russians were tweeting to get them to vote leave, they failed.
> 
> The masses voting to leave the Eu is proof that the masses aren't happy. The powers that be ignore it at their peril. In other countries we might be arrested for our dissent, in this country they give us a referendum. Much to their surprise and dismay the masses voted against them. Vive the masses.


Vive the masses. Hail the populism aka Farage and BJ!

Rejoice...people voluntarily made themselves poorer!

Let them eat cakes! Oh, but no cakes and no cherry picking...

Masses elected Hitler. Masses elected current government in Poland.
Look - primeval forest is being destroyed. EU is trying to stop it.

EU to collapse! What joy!
Let China and Russia with Emirates lead the free world...

You never lived under totalitarian regime.
If you think EU is that bad...
Tien An Men Square - remember that?
This is what happens to masses.
Not vive but many dead.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> Never ever cheeky, well not whilst ive got a hole in my bum will any country ever have a government that will keep the whole of its population happy. Looking at the UK alone and our three main parties, following vince cables recent speech, didn't listen to it but assuming there wS mention of the university fees, as someone later said well what about those that don't go to university? Straight away goes to show that keeping the students happy discounts the rest. Its the same in every country, hard line, soft line they always,have their followers. Why do you think DT is in power?
> I seriously fear there is NO middle road. and the louder that one side shout the further the other side will dig in their heels. We are very fortunate to be allowed a vote and that we are able to do so without fear by allowing us this all have to accept there will be a winner and a loser and an acceptance by the minority, no matter how small that that's the end of the matter. What has happened here in the ln the past 18 month brexit voters have been told they are stupid, misled, uneducated, brainwashed, lied to they didnt read facts nor listen to the experts.
> 
> I actually feel that the criteria to be allowed to vote shoud be a lot more stricter as it happens, and no, I don't believe brits living out of the UK for a certain amount of time should be allowed to vote either and as for an opinion , why heck yes everyone's allowed one of those but no one's going to take a blind bit of notice and it's not going to make one iota of difference xxx
> Not aimed at you cheeky xx


Not taken personally...

*cheeky quietly considers @Elles for next HMoW.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> *Europe was certainly united after World War I *wasn't it.


No. They had a 2nd world war. Europe wasn't united at all until well after ww2. Some would argue it isn't really united today except by name.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> No. They had a 2nd world war. Europe wasn't united at all until well after ww2. Some would argue it isn't really united today except by name.


It will never be united, well not whilst I've got a hole in my bum it wont be.


----------



## Elles

We quite like our Poles in Exeter.

On the15th November each year we commemorate the Polish who died for us in the Second World War and fly the Polish flag over the guildhall. We have a exhibition called 'Freedom for Them and for Us' Recognising the 307 Polish Squadron RAF. It's the 75th this year, so we're all expecting something special.

So there.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> We quite like our Poles in Exeter.
> 
> On the15th November each year we commemorate the Polish who died for us in the Second World War and fly the Polish flag over the guildhall. We have a exhibition called 'Freedom for Them and for Us' Recognising the 307 Polish Squadron RAF. It's the 75th this year, so we're all expecting something special.
> 
> So there.


Likewise, we have a large part in our cemetery dedicated for them, cannot recall how many graves,are there but will check


----------



## cheekyscrip

Plug that H


DT said:


> It will never be united, well not whilst I've got a hole in my bum it wont be.


PLUG THAT HOLE!
Unite and PLUG THAT HOLE !

Corbyn, Abbott, Johnson, Farage, Gove, May, Cesar Millan, North Korean Rocket Man, Trump...come closer and ....


----------



## Elles

Yup. People didn't just make themselves poorer for a united Europe, they died for it. Ignoring the haters for a minute and I don't deny they exist, some don't believe that the Eu is the way to unite Europe, but rather to divide it and are not impressed with the Eu, regardless of what our own politicians get up to. Uplifting, uniting, positive stories aren't reported in the gutter press very often I'd guess.

I could agree with your black hole, but can we chuck Juncker in there with them?


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> It will never be united, well not whilst I've got a hole in my bum it wont be.


There you go, giving certain remainers another straw to grasp at, no doubt they are hoping you get a bad case of hemorrhoids.


----------



## Elles

Reminds me of my niece. My sister had a full length mirror delivered and my niece was looking at herself in it. She was about 4 I think. She let out this almighty scream and burst into tears, so we rushed to her and asked "whatever is the matter?", not being able to see anything wrong. "My bum's cracked." she cried in distress. When we stopped laughing, we reassured her that it's perfectly normal and the same as everyone else. Lol


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> There you go, giving certain remainers another straw to grasp at, no doubt they are hoping you get a bad case of hemorrhoids.


There would still be a hole, albeit shrunken


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> Reminds me of my niece. My sister had a full length mirror delivered and my niece was looking at herself in it. She was about 4 I think. She let out this almighty scream and burst into tears, so we rushed to her and asked "whatever is the matter?", not being able to see anything wrong. "My bum's cracked." she cried in distress. When we stopped laughing, we reassured her that it's perfectly normal and the same as everyone else. Lol


Omg, I don't think Ive laughed so much on the brexit thread since someone suggested jeremy corbyn should be PM


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Yup. People didn't just make themselves poorer for a united Europe, they died for it. Ignoring the haters for a minute and I don't deny they exist, some don't believe that the Eu is the way to unite Europe, but rather to divide it and are not impressed with the Eu, regardless of what our own politicians get up to. Uplifting, uniting, positive stories aren't reported in the gutter press very often I'd guess.
> 
> I could agree with your black hole, but can we chuck Juncker in there with them?


Just thought about it myself!!!
Great minds and all that...
Add Rajoy and Berlusconi.
Look at Catalonia right now!
Why they have no right to self- determination in the middle of EU?
Scotland had and will have if choses so, I am sure.

But Britain jumping the bus gave away so much power to YES! Juncker and Merkel and Marcon...
That annoys me no end.

Tontos.

By the way why Poland educates enough professionals for own use and enough to send some to EU?

Tell the secret. Free Uni. No fees. Just entry exams, quite hard for most desirable courses...but if you are smart and work hard....
Polish Comprehensives are decent too. And free. The best ones have entry exams.
Again- if you are smart and hard working...you get there...

If Poland can afford decent education for free why cannot much richer UK?

I do not get it....


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> It will never be united, well not whilst I've got a hole in my bum it wont be.


Ditto. Proves a point that the EU has more holes in it than a knitting pattern


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> PLUG THAT HOLE!
> Unite and PLUG THAT HOLE !
> View attachment 325973


To me the hole is the EU. We are their cash cow (that's the UK by the way). The sooner the UK is out the better. Those that voted to leave the EU have united to plug that hole


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> Yup. People didn't just make themselves poorer for a united Europe, they died for it. Ignoring the haters for a minute and I don't deny they exist, some don't believe that the Eu is the way to unite Europe, but rather to divide it and are not impressed with the Eu, regardless of what our own politicians get up to. Uplifting, uniting, positive stories aren't reported in the gutter press very often I'd guess.
> 
> I could agree with your black hole, but can we chuck Juncker in there with them?


I'll help


----------



## FeelTheBern

stockwellcat. said:


> Ditto. Proves a point that the EU has more holes in it than a knitting pattern











*GRANDMA! WHY ARE YOU HOLDING EUROPE?*


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Ditto. Proves a point that the EU has more holes in it than a knitting pattern


Don't you mean a colander,


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Don't you mean a colander,


Ahh true there my friend.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The cure to the EU








:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## FeelTheBern

After a while, Grandma decided she couldn't do anything with the EU so she got rid of it.








Some of you might say she could have recycled it-I disagree. I don't think you could have made anything useful out of the EU.


----------



## Elles

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20170530-why-citizenship-is-now-a-commodity

Hmmm. Got enough money? No worries.


----------



## 1290423

FeelTheBern said:


> After a while, Grandma decided she couldn't do anything with the EU so she got rid of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of you might say she could have recycled it-I disagree. I don't think you could have made anything useful out of the EU.


Many a true word spoken in jest


----------



## Elles

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41334906

35 men living in one house.  Ok, so the landlord is exploiting them. Who are they all working for, what are they doing? What happens now they've been discovered? I expect they're all either looking for work, or being exploited, while they build up their time to be allowed to stay. This is the kind of thing that people see and are against imo. Why on earth is being crammed wall to wall in a house in London better than living in the Eu country they left?


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41334906
> 
> 35 men living in one house.  Ok, so the landlord is exploiting them. Who are they all working for, what are they doing? What happens now they've been discovered? I expect they're all either looking for work, or being exploited, while they build up their time to be allowed to stay. This is the kind of thing that people see and are against imo. Why on earth is being crammed wall to wall in a house in London better than living in the Eu country they left?


Its more common then many think, been going on yonks, and its widespread, only think they call it bed sharing, not unusual to have twenty to thirty in a three bed house. Seem to recall a while ago there was a bit on a todo about it with agency workers


----------



## Elles

DT said:


> Its more common then many think, been going on yonks, and its widespread, only think they call it bed sharing, not unusual to have twenty to thirty in a three bed house. Seem to recall a while ago there was a bit on a todo about it with agency workers


Yes.  It's the kind of thing people are complaining about. Not respectable, hard working people making a life for themselves, but people exploiting and being exploited by a system that enables it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41334906
> 
> 35 men living in one house.  Ok, so the landlord is exploiting them. Who are they all working for, what are they doing? What happens now they've been discovered? I expect they're all either looking for work, or being exploited, while they build up their time to be allowed to stay. This is the kind of thing that people see and are against imo. Why on earth is being crammed wall to wall in a house in London better than living in the Eu country they left?


Possibly not. Then they might have owed money to their " middle man" for finding them work...common scheme in modern day slavery. If they complained they are told they would be deported and their families back home would be punished.
So they are cheated on, threatened and exploited.
You know those stories from press...I know them from life.

Now, that they would be soon " illegal" it would make matters so much worse.

I have a friend who came to work as a waitress, then forced into prostitution. It was before EU. She was only 18. Felt totally scared and hopeless.

Luck had that young client took pity when she confided in him, paid her pimps and took her home.
Then married her.
They are still together.


----------



## Elles

Didn't they find thousands of families and people living in sheds that they rented too? Of course none of these people are accounted for. What a way to live.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Britain leaving the Eu will not bring an end to European unity. The end of the Eu would not bring an end to European unity. It would more likely bring our countries and people closer together imo, when we aren't being forced down each other's throats and fighting over Eu spoils, but can instead come together in cooperation.





stockwellcat. said:


> No. They had a 2nd world war. Europe wasn't united at all until well after ww2. Some would argue it isn't really united today except by name.


The predecessor of the EU, the ECSC, was set up to - "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". It was set up explicitly because trade promotes peace. Security is peace in Europe not war - that is what the EU has given us - however imperfectly. Seems we have learned nothing from history.

If only people would listen to experts....

This article by Historian Richard Evans is on the rise of Trump & he touches on the dangers of Britain leaving the EU.

Richard Evans established himself as arguably the pre-eminent historian of 20th-century Germany with his astonishing trilogy on the rise and fall of the Third Reich.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...p_s_america_isn_t_exactly_like_the_third.html

*When you look at Europe today, how pessimistic are you?*

I think it is a critical moment, and a lot of it goes back to the credit crunch and the economic crisis of 2008, and the feeling of a lot of people that they've been left out, that globalization has harmed them, or they've not seen an improvement in living standards or reductions in social and economic inequality. I think one of the lessons of 19th-century Europe is that peace and prosperity are best guaranteed by international collaboration. There was an arrangement between different states called the Concert of Europe in the 19thcentury, and in the post- or late-20thcentury, it's the European Union. I think it is a disaster that Britain has chosen to leave the European Union at a time when you have a very unpredictable administration in Washington with no guarantee that it will in any way protect or look after our interests, when America is effectively abdicating its role as leader of the free world.

*Not just abdicating, but almost consciously or actively trying to undermine the idea of Europe.*

Yeah, it's spurning international agreements and organizations just as Hitler left the League of Nations in 1933. I think it's a dangerous moment for Britain, and I think it's a huge miscalculation to leave the European Union.

*The European Union needs to be strengthened, not weakened*.

.........................................................................................................................................................................

Excellently summed up by Jonathan Freedland -

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-remain-final-plea-undecided?CMP=share_btn_tw

*5 Peace and war *
*Th*is is the big one. For all its flaws, it's worth remembering what the EU was created for and what it has achieved. It took a continent that for a thousand years had been soaked in blood and aimed to bind those perennially warring nations into a structure that would allow war no more. And in that noble endeavour it has succeeded. For 70 years, the nations of Europe have stopped murdering each other - a 70-year exception to a millennium-long rule. The EU - clumsy and blundering and bureaucratic though it can be - has replaced armed conflict that killed millions with trade and negotiation. If Britain leaves, the likelihood is great that the EU will unravel. And, once it's gone, history suggests Europe will become the dark continent once more. We know what European nations, without the restraint of the EU, can do to each other: look at the break-up of Yugoslavia 20 years ago, look at Russia and Ukraine today.

A Brexit vote will imperil an institution that has kept the peace for three generations.
*
Don't let's be the generation that wrecked it

.*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Didn't they find thousands of families and people living in sheds that they rented too? Of course none of these people are accounted for. What a way to live.


This is what often happens to illegal workers.
Shows that masses are often living under illusion of a better life....then got stuck in even worse...
People found in those conditions are usually poorly educated, with lots of fear and not much understanding.
They fear deportation camps and being sent back.


----------



## samuelsmiles

*UK strikes research deal with US in run-up to Brexit*

"This agreement sends a welcome message that UK science remains *outward looking*. International research collaboration allows the rapid exchange of new ideas and expertise and it also allows us to address problems that no one country can on its own. It is an essential part of modern science,"


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If only people would listen to experts....


But I do listen to an expert.

If you are wondering who this expert is, it is Me. :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## Bisbow

Not to worry every one but according to someone called David Meade the end of the world is starting on Sep 23rd so it won't matter if we are in or out

Perhaps the remainers forcast of doom and gloom will come true but not as they expected


----------



## Elles

https://www.una.org.uk/get-involved/learn-and-teach/overview-united-nations


----------



## Elles

Isn't a bit late to be linking Remain campaigns from before the referendum unfortunately? If people didn't listen then, why would they listen now? Bosnia looks to be joining the Eu soon. Now it's grown up and stopped fighting.


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> *UK strikes research deal with US in run-up to Brexit*


You do realise don't you that nothing about the EU prevented this from happening before. The main difference is that cooperation with the EU was far more beneficial for scientists. Interesting they talk about legal framework. Where's the money lost going to come from? How does leaving the EU help? It doesn't, simply desparately trying minimise damage of brexit.

Edit: Well at least biotechnology and privacy regulation is less restrictive outside the EU apparantly. Less regulation protecting people and animals is apparantly something to be desired by some.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Everyone, and I mean 100% of people I know that voted out, realised that we would probably be worse of for some time, and yes, they were prepared to accept that to get out.


Oh look decades of being comparatively worse off so we could "take back control", a lie.


----------



## Elles

I believe uk and other European scientists are expected to continue cooperating after Brexit.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Oh look decades of being comparatively worse off so we could "take back control", a lie.


Where did Rona say "take back control" in her post? She said "get out" which we probably are. How much out depends on various factors.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Where did Rona say "take back control" in her post? She said "get out" which we probably are. How much out depends on various factors.


That, in case you missed it was the overall theme of brexit. We were talking generally, apparently everyone knew UK would be worse off matching the leave campaign so called lie.. wow.


----------



## Elles

I think it's about time we moved on from propaganda spouted before the referendum and discussed current affairs really.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Elles said:


> I think it's about time we moved on from propaganda spouted before the referendum and discussed current affairs really.


Apparently some of the remain camp haven't moved on from June 2016 yet, so I wouldn't hold your breath.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I think it's about time we moved on from propaganda spouted before the referendum and discussed current affairs really.


It's the slogans and Boris Johnson that keeps the Brexiteers going.

At least one forum member still has faith in him.

Talking about uniting Europe, the UK itself is deeply divided!


----------



## Bisbow

Elles said:


> I think it's about time we moved on from propaganda spouted before the referendum and discussed current affairs really.


\propaganda is the only thing they have got going for them
I have said before, not one original thought from any of them, All articles written by other people and silly cartoons


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Talking about uniting Europe, the* UK itself is deeply divided*!


and it will take a lot if anything to reunite it again, Brexit has done more damage to it's people that some will never forgive!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> That, in case you missed it was the overall theme of brexit.




I thought the whole theme of Brexit was to leave the EU which is what people voted for in the EU Referendum last year. As others have said we need to move on from last years referendum result and talk about current affairs related to Brexit. I doubt though this will happen with the remainers stuck in the past (June's result 2016).


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> and it will take a lot if anything to reunite it again, Brexit has done more damage to it's people *that some will never forgive!*


Then they are being rather silly.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Oh look decades of being comparatively worse off so we could "take back control", a lie.


Eh? It's only you that's lying and twisting, I never said take back control or decades of being worse off 



Goblin said:


> That, in case you missed it was the overall theme of brexit. We were talking generally, apparently everyone knew UK would be worse off matching the leave campaign so called lie.. wow.


I also didn't say everyone in general


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41334906
> 
> 35 men living in one house.  Ok, so the landlord is exploiting them. Who are they all working for, what are they doing? What happens now they've been discovered? I expect they're all either looking for work, or being exploited, while they build up their time to be allowed to stay. This is the kind of thing that people see and are against imo. Why on earth is being crammed wall to wall in a house in London better than living in the Eu country they left?


Shameful; but the landlords can charge them something like £60 a week EACH and are raking in thousands.


----------



## Honeys mum

Dr Pepper said:


> Apparently some of the remain camp haven't moved on from June 2016 yet, so I wouldn't hold your breath.


Maybe this will help them move on and accept that we are leaving the EU.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Eh? It's only you that's lying and twisting, I never said take back control or decades of being worse off


That is the result according to facts when compared with staying in the EU unless you can point to evidence which points to being better off somewhere. You haven't pushed that the EU is corrupt and leaving means taking back control at all?



> I also didn't say everyone in general


Really so:


> Everyone, and I mean 100% of people I know that voted out, realised that we would probably be worse of for some time, and yes, they were prepared to accept that to get out.


you were not saying those who voted out accept being worse off as the price to pay then as that is effectively what you wrote 100%.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> As others have said we need to move on from last years referendum result and talk about current affairs related to Brexit.


You mean leavers supported a government which is lying to them and hiding information grabbing onto every crumb thrown at them as though it's fantastic instead of making sure the government actually reflects the will of the people, not simply 37% of them. If it's any consolation, you have decades of this coming as you cannot provide advantages to leaving based on truth and reality.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Really so:
> 
> you were not saying those who voted out accept being worse off as the price to pay then as that is effectively what you wrote 100%.


As usual you try to twist what people have said. She said "100% *of people I know*"

Not hard to understand.


----------



## Bisbow

Goblin said:


> You mean leavers supported a government which is lying to them and hiding information grabbing onto every crumb thrown at them as though it's fantastic instead of making sure the government actually reflects the will of the people, not simply 37% of them. If it's any consolation, you have decades of this coming as you cannot provide advantages to leaving based on truth and reality.


Still taking a lot of rubbish I see

You are like a broken record


----------



## stockwellcat.

Bisbow said:


> You are like a broken record


I said the same thing throughout the thread.


----------



## Bisbow

Dr Pepper said:


> As usual you try to twist what people have said. She said "100% *of people I know*"
> 
> Not hard to understand.


It is impossible for such closed minds to understand


----------



## stockwellcat.

Bisbow said:


> Still taking a lot of rubbish I see


Which seems to be a common theme throughout this thread with remainers.


----------



## Bisbow

stockwellcat. said:


> I said the same thing throughout the thread.


|Just thought I would reinforce ir


----------



## cheekyscrip

The reality check on unicorns, rainbows and trade deals:








Brexit will damage UK economy.
Not only.
Will damage EU but to a lesser degree.
Talk about " to cut your nose to spite your face"...

By the way - the 350 million a week promised on the buses?

Only Boris can, cara dura, say anything about " misrepresentation", when basically accused of lying.


----------



## Elles

Reportedly, in recent weeks..

Things have moved on since then. Theresa May is talking divorce bill etc.

Not everyone is interested in a trade deal with the Eu with some of the disadvantages that come with it and were the reason many voted leave. The word 'free' is I think unfortunate, as there's nothing particularly free about a deal with the Eu.


----------



## 1290423

Honeys mum said:


> Maybe this will help them move on and accept that we are leaving the EU.


Perhaps the government could send out a free copy to all those who voted remain, a bit like they did with the leaflet they sent urging us to vote remain


----------



## Bisbow

cheekyscrip said:


> The reality check on unicorns, rainbows and trade deals:
> View attachment 326091
> 
> Brexit will damage UK economy.
> Not only.
> Will damage EU but to a lesser degree.
> Talk about " to cut your nose to spite your face"...
> 
> By the way - the 350 million a week promised on the buses?
> 
> Only Boris can, cara dura, say anything about " misrepresentation", when basically accused of lying.


Still plagiarizing other peoples thought I see


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> Still taking a lot of rubbish I see
> 
> You are like a broken record


Dont You mean stuck record


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Not hard to understand.


Awh! Now that depends


----------



## Bisbow

DT said:


> Dont You mean stuck record


Thank you, yes , exactly right


----------



## cheekyscrip

Bisbow said:


> Still plagiarizing other peoples thought I see


Maybe because Barnier knows more than I do?

Plus his opinion counts...
When I am appointed Chief negotiator then will post my speech in full.

My original thought was there:
Brexit is damaging British economy and much more...
EU to lesser extend.
Do not just look at the screenshots!
Low ball @Bisbow.

If Leavers find anything from reputable source to quote to support their optimism, they do.too.
Just that it does not happen too often that they find anything like that to quote.

( I can be horrid this week, well earned privilege, but you must wait till you get the baton  )


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Dont You mean stuck record


What's a record?


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> What's a record?


Think they call em vinyls now


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Then they are being rather silly.


Some still refuse to forgive Margaret Thatcher, or other previous PMs, for things done in their time in office. 'Rather silly' is the dfault state of human beings when it comes to some things...



stockwellcat. said:


> Which seems to be a common theme throughout this thread with remainers.


Now, be fair, there is plenty of rubbish being talked by Brexiteers too 



Elles said:


> Not everyone is interested in a trade deal with the Eu with some of the disadvantages that come with it and were the reason many voted leave. The word 'free' is I think unfortunate, as there's nothing particularly free about a deal with the Eu.


'Free' refers to the open movement of goods, not the membership fee for being part of the trade area. That the membership fee is still cheaper in real terms than the impact WTO rules and customs checks on every border is, of course, a mute point (as in they don't want to talk about it  )


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Think they call em vinyls now


Oohhh, I'll look into them, my cylinder is on it's last legs.


----------



## Elles

Tbh I don't usually quote from my reputable sources, but rather my overall impression or conclusion. 

I've been trying to link more, but usually I've been reading quite a lot and watching interviews and that kind of thing, so by the time I get to posting on here, what I've seen has disappeared somewhere in my history, or is something that has to be paid for, or was on tv news at 2 am.

On saying that I'm a turncoat, so the post probably doesn't apply to me. 

I know what free means in relation to the Eu, the 4 freedoms and tariffs. However, it makes it sound as though it's a desirable freedom, a civil and moral right, that stirs the soul, when, well, it's not.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Belgium are keen on Barnier backing off. Barnier is not acting in the best interests of the 27; he's behaving like a jilted lover who's so bitter that he's going to try to wring every last penny out of us. As my ex sister in law discovered, this approach easily backfires.

Geert Bourgeois, the head of the Flemish government, stressed the need for trade talks: _"I've met twice Barnier. I brought him to Zeebrugge. 45% of the trade of the export from Zeebrugge is to the United Kingdom, so that's why I do my best to influence all the people, the ambassadors of the surrounding countries, to work together"_.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Dr Pepper said:


> Oohhh, I'll look into them, my cylinder is on it's last legs.


You're obviously not a hipster then


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Now, be fair, there is plenty of rubbish being talked by Brexiteers too


I was being fair.  

16 months of a headache from remainers on here (nowhere else) because I voted the way I said I would. Then constantly getting remainers trying to belittle me (on here). Oh and then they cannot think for themselves by quoting what others have said (on here), eg "so called experts" from the Sun newspaper, twitter or facebook.

Gets a bit annoying as well when they are dancing around about the referendum result (on here) which everyone else has got over and moved on.

Any how I only see this on here, in real life no one I know or have come into contact with are talking about Brexit, the referendum or the results and are just getting on with life.


----------



## Bisbow

cheekyscrip said:


> Maybe because Barnier knows more than I do?
> 
> Plus his opinion counts...
> When I am appointed Chief negotiator then will post my speech in full.
> 
> My original thought was there:
> Brexit is damaging British economy and much more...
> EU to lesser extend.
> Do not just look at the screenshots!
> Low ball @Bisbow.
> 
> If Leavers find anything from reputable source to quote to support their optimism, they do.too.
> Just that it does not happen too often that they find anything like that to quote.
> 
> ( I can be horrid this week, well earned privilege, but you must wait till you get the baton  )


I don't bother to do quote, I read, inwardly digest, spit out the rubbish
I don't try to change your mind, it is too closed, and won't change mine despite all you do to try

I stand by my vote and would do the same again so stop trying to change and other leavers , you are on to a looser


----------



## Dr Pepper

MiffyMoo said:


> You're obviously not a hipster then


You'd be right.


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> Not hard to understand.


Maybe not for you, me and Rona . . .


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> I was being fair.
> 
> 16 months of a headache from remainers on here (nowhere else) because I voted the way I said I would. Then constantly getting remainers trying to belittle me (on here). Oh and then they cannot think for themselves by quoting what others have said (on here), eg "so called experts" from the Sun newspaper, twitter or facebook.


It's only a headache if you choose to let it be. Otherwise, it should simply be an ongoing debate about the merits and pitfalls of Brexit. Desiring to discuss the problems is not the sign of a closed mind, it is the sign of a realistic one. And referring to reliable sources (as opposed to inferring from revealed self-evident wisdom and extrapolating from associated sources) is, to my scientific mind, an essential part of rational debate. But as I cannot be an expert on everything, I choose to consider the opinions of people who have studied an area in question as likely to be superior to my own understanding. Obviously one has to weight the merits of a source, but rejecting an opinion simply because of the place from which it is quoted is unwise.

As to belittling, that definitely has been going both ways. In the just last few pages Brexiteers have called Remainers close minded, losers, dummies, silly and a number of other things, and that has not been unusual over the course of the thread. Name calling on either side is not conducive to mature debate, and I wish everyone would stop it.



stockwellcat. said:


> Gets a bit annoying as well when they are dancing around about the referendum result (on here) which everyone else has got over and moved on.


I doubt very much that everyone who is not talking about it has 'got over it.' It is far more likely they have simply given up talking about it with Brexiteers, or at all, as it would appear that no-one is listening to any concerns other to tell them to shut up and get over it.



stockwellcat. said:


> Any how I only see this on here, in real life no one I know or have come into contact with are talking about Brexit, the referendum or the results and are just getting on with life.


As is everyone, as getting on with life is the only option, even if you don't particularly like the direction you country is headed in right now. Getting on with life does not equate to passive acceptance of the circumstances. If that were the case, we'd still have the slave trade, indentured servitude, serfdom, voting for the rich only, the absolute rule of monarchy etc. and would lack many rights we currently take for granted.

For example, we already have some politicians making the case that in order to survive competitively as a country post-Brexit, the labour market must be deregulated. Perhaps many do not understand what that could mean, but I do - the removal of worker protections and safeguards, reduction of safety and environmental protections etc. - anything that stands in the way of profitability, so a lot of the things a lot of people have campaigned for many years to get us, basically. I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to sacrifice regulations that mean people are more likely to go home safely at the end of the day, or that mean people are safer in their homes and unlikely to be caught up in another Grenfell, for example, simply so companies can make more profit.


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> Maybe this will help them move on and accept that we are leaving the EU.


Attempting to insult people will not change our minds.

Many will NEVER accept leaving the EU in much the same way as many never accepted the decisive result of the 1975 referendum.

The next one will not be as far away as 41 years I can assure you.


----------



## Dr Pepper

KittenKong said:


> The next one will not be as far away as 41 years I can assure you.


Well that'll be difficult to prove because if it gets anywhere near forty years I'm pretty sure most of us will either be dead or sat in a chair dribbling, soiling ourself and calling our eldest kids by our last dog's name.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Attempting to insult people will not change our minds.


So its ok for remainers to insult leavers on here but not vice versa. 


> The next one will not be as far away as 41 years I can assure you.


If the world is still around then. I for one am very concerned with lego mans actions in North Korea at the moment than what will happen in the next 41 years. I for one, either way, will not be around.


----------



## rona

Barnier...........A man who believes in the power of the state and thinks we should all respect said state................yeah right 

What on earths happening in Spain? Is it because they had to admit to no sovereignty over Gibraltar a few weeks ago?


----------



## Elles

No-one has contradicted the longish list I posted of accusations levelled at Brexiters. No Remainers have asked for others to stop insulting Brexiters either and that's been going on for over a year now. 

I suppose if you know something isn't true, you're less likely to take any notice of it, or take it personally. Water off a duck's back.


----------



## Bisbow

stockwellcat. said:


> So its ok for remainers to insult leavers on here but not vice versa.
> .


Of course it is

We are all ignorant cretins and not notice or understand insults


----------



## Honeys mum

KittenKong said:


> Attempting to insult people will not change our minds.


KK I am not attempting to insult anyone as you put it, even though you remainers have insulted us leavers enough times, but he ho thats alright. Nor Have I any wish to change your minds. Have you no sense of humor.

We all voted the way we wanted to and only time will tell who was right and who was wrong.


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> We are all ignorant cretins


 . . . and white, working-class racists; remember?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> many never accepted the decisive result of the 1975 referendum.


They lived with it OK tho' . . . or were there mass suicides?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Calvine said:


> . . . and white, working-class racists; remember?


also to that list....

Xenophobic
Tribal
Unqualified
Uneducated

and Dullards (well ok that was mine, but by request I'm trying to use it more).

Oh and don't forget cleaners specifically wouldn't have know what they were voting for.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> . . . and white, working-class racists; remember?


Not everyone who voted leave was white (friends of mine and neighbours)....but I won't go down that road so I don't upset the remainers way of thinking. Yes I am working class and highly capable of making my own mind up without the help of the media but of course I know I must be a plank and unable to make decisions for myself (according to remainers). Which by the way remainers I have found hugely insulting over the last 12 to 16 months. But water off a ducks back and water under a bridge so to speak. I don't see how a thread on a pet forum can infulence people to change their mind. I mean who is going to see this unless they know about pf. This is only a forum. I am on here for my pet at the end of the day.

My decision was mine alone and I voted the way I always said I will vote if a referendum took place to leave the EU. If I happen to be around in 41 years and @KittenKong is right I will vote the same way again. But the EU may not exist then. Who knows what state this world will be in if it is still here?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Many will NEVER accept leaving the EU in much the same way as many never accepted the decisive result of the 1975 referendum.


Oh but we did didn't we?

Then many who voted in decided they'd made a big mistake when offered the opportunity to vote again.
Have you ever considered why so many changed their minds?


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> and calling our eldest kids by our last dog's name.


A bit like Ronald Reagan and 'Lassie' then!!


----------



## Dr Pepper

Calvine said:


> A bit like Ronald Reagan and 'Lassie' then!!


I so wish I could find a video of that it was so funny and he found it funny as well. I know it happened as Mrs Pepper (she's not a doctor so just plain Mrs) refers to it often as well.

EDIT

Here we go, not a video but at the bottom the story.
http://dangerousminds.net/comments/reagan_cant_remember_his_dogs_name_1981


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Then they are being rather silly.


Well that's your oppinion, I think we have dug ourselves a bl**dy big hole and I'm glad, I wont be round when you fall into it.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Well that's your oppinion, I think we have dug ourselves a bl**dy big hole and I'm glad, I wont be round when you fall into it.


It's silly because people who used to be friends are falling out over this and I think it's rather sad. Just because I voted out, it doesn't make me a different person to the one I was the day before I did so.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> It's silly because people who used to be friends are falling out over this and I think it's rather sad. *Just because I voted out, it doesn't make me a different person to the one I was the day before I did so.*


I've never thought you were, we just have different opinions.


----------



## MiffyMoo

rona said:


> It's silly because people who used to be friends are falling out over this and I think it's rather sad. Just because I voted out, it doesn't make me a different person to the one I was the day before I did so.


I actually had to stop being friends with someone because she was incredibly rude to me beforehand ("you don't understand, you're only doing it because x is, etc etc"). On the Friday night after the results, she started posting non-stop swearing and slagging me off on Facebook. I tried to be really patient with her, but after she started tagging in other friends of mine, I just had to tell her to F off


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> I've never thought you were, we just have different opinions.


I know you have a sense of perspective. Such a shame that others don't, really does make me sad


----------



## cheekyscrip

I quote what I find interesting said by those whose opinion I respect and whose opinion matter.
It does not insult anyone.

For example: Barnier. Carney.

You.may like what he says or not, but it is worth to pay attention to it, this is why I quote it verbatim.

Do not understand why it should cause offence or upset anyone.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> also to that list....
> 
> Xenophobic
> Tribal
> Unqualified
> Uneducated
> 
> and Dullards (well ok that was mine, but by request I'm trying to use it more).
> 
> Oh and don't forget cleaners specifically wouldn't have know what they were voting for.


Sun reader


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> I actually had to stop being friends with someone because she was incredibly rude to me beforehand ("you don't understand, you're only doing it because x is, etc etc"). On the Friday night after the results, she started posting non-stop swearing and slagging me off on Facebook. I tried to be really patient with her, but after she started tagging in other friends of mine, I just had to tell her to F off


Ill never stop being friends with no one,
The WILL get over it one day, may take some time but we'll get there in the end


----------



## MiffyMoo

DT said:


> Ill never stop being friends with no one,
> The WILL get over it one day, may take some time but we'll get there in the end


If someone is willing to show such little respect and subject you to constant abuse, they're not a very good friend. I would never dream of telling a friend that the way they vote is because they don't understand, can't make up their own mind without someone else doing it for them etc.


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> If someone is willing to show such little respect and subject you to constant abuse, they're not a very good friend. I would never dream of telling a friend that the way they vote is because they don't understand, can't make up their own mind without someone else doing it for them etc.


Just dont talk about it, I say we'll have this conversation in five years or so one of us will be wrong the other right,
And if all else fails,just slap them
They are a weak lily livered lot anyway. They would have been given white feathers in 1914


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> I quote what I find interesting said by those whose opinion I respect and whose opinion matter.
> It does not insult anyone.
> 
> For example: Barnier. Carney.
> 
> You.may like what he says or not, but it is worth to pay attention to it, this is why I quote it verbatim.
> 
> Do not understand why it should cause offence or upset anyone.


The day someone offends me hasn't been invented yet


----------



## FeelTheBern

DT said:


> Ill never stop being friends with no one


You might stop being friends with someone who obsessively corrects grammatical errors.


----------



## 1290423

FeelTheBern said:


> You might stop being friends with someone who obsessively corrects grammatical errors.


Or maybe I mite just do it all the moor
Depends, which side of the bed I get out


----------



## Elles

Juncker really isn't a pleasant person is he? Giggling like schoolboy and holding court while he sneers about Theresa May's phonecall. His people (Eu citizens) are concerned about their status after Brexit and he's coming out with petty remarks, while his sycophants nod and snigger. 

That's what it looked like to me anyway.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> Juncker really isn't a pleasant person is he? Giggling like schoolboy and holding court while he sneers about Theresa May's phonecall. His people (Eu citizens) are concerned about their status after Brexit and he's coming out with petty remarks, while his sycophants nod and snigger.
> 
> That's what it looked like to me anyway.


Pathetic piece of excrement  think nigel summed him up to a T

And if that's the best the EU have thank the lord we are leaving


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Juncker really isn't a pleasant person is he? Giggling like schoolboy and holding court while he sneers about Theresa May's phonecall. His people (Eu citizens) are concerned about their status after Brexit and he's coming out with petty remarks, while his sycophants nod and snigger.
> 
> That's what it looked like to me anyway.


Never liked him.

I am glad we are leaving the EU and the sooner the better.


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> I actually had to stop being friends with someone because she was incredibly rude to me beforehand ("you don't understand, you're only doing it because x is, etc etc"). On the Friday night after the results, she started posting non-stop swearing and slagging me off on Facebook. I tried to be really patient with her, but after she started tagging in other friends of mine, I just had to tell her to F off


That is just astounding. I don't even know what most of the people I know voted (only about half a dozen) and really was only annoyed with one who 'couldn't be bothered to vote as it wouldn't change anything'. By 2 pm the following day she didn't know the results of the EU Referendum; I had to tell her. She made a comment something along the lines of, 'Not surprised really, if I had voted, I'd have voted out, too'. Apparently she can't be bothered to vote on anything. So much for the suffragettes chaining themselves to railings and jumping under horses.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Juncker really isn't a pleasant person is he? Giggling like schoolboy and holding court while he sneers about Theresa May's phonecall.


I've read a few times that he starts drinking quite early in the day . . . not sure if that's true?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> I've read a few times that he starts drinking quite early in the day . . . not sure if that's true?


Cognac for brekkie. No, I join in the dislike for that man.
For once I agree with Leavers...wish he was gone. Did enough harm.
But to leave because of him is like dropping out of school because you hate some teacher.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> And if all else fails,just slap them
> They are a weak lily livered lot anyway.


If the likes of @Goblin went down the pub every Friday night and constantly spouted the nonsense he does on here I bet there would have been a lot more than slap involved months ago.

Frankly I've reached the end of my teather with these few childish remainers, especially the ones who aren't UK residents and can't even vote. I wouldn't for a moment even consider commenting on why I thought the Gernans voted the way did in their elections, why the hell would I? I certainly wouldn't call them racists uneducated dullards (). I think at the heart of it they know the UK leaving the EU will cost them actual hard cash via increased taxes to make up the billions of euros shortfall every year. It's certainly one reason anyway.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 326143


and this has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. Of course more people are going to turn up to see Trump, hes a nutter


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> Of course more people are going to turn up to see Trump, hes a nutter


Given the choice of listening to DT and listening to TM, I would choose DT for the comedic entertainment value alone.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Calvine said:


> Given the choice of listening to DT and listening to TM, I would choose DT for the comedic entertainment value alone.


Indeed. Especially as he decided to announce that he was going to annihilate North Korea


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> Given the choice of listening to DT and listening to TM, I would choose DT for the comedic entertainment value alone.


Why, thank you, I have my uses you know


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> Indeed. Especially as he decided to announce that he was going to annihilate North Korea


He's a wag, isn't he!


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> Frankly I've reached the end of my teather with these few childish remainers


Strangely enough, the month before the referendum, one stated they were _'currently in'_; it sounded to me as tho' they were uncertain. None of the Leavers I knew were in any doubt. But, being a dullard, what would I know?


----------



## Elles

I was pleased to see 'This Week' back on tv after QT yesterday. I do like how they keep a (corny) sense of humour over serious and opposing views. It's on iPlayer if anyone missed it.


----------



## Elles

I presume no one did watch it, or maybe we'd be discussing Michael Portillo's comment. He says that after the German elections, the real powers at the Eu will step in and sort them out. The real powers being Angela Merkel and.... Angela Merkel. :Hilarious

He seems to think that Ms Merkel won't be impressed with the Eu either and will give them a talking to. 

I think we should remember that there are 27 countries who have an interest in what happens to their businesses and people too. Many of these have had money from the Eu that has come from the uk. Over the years Britain has paid a lot in and if the Eu can be snarky about the British people, what do they think of others?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> I presume no one did watch it, or maybe we'd be discussing Michael Portillo's comment. He says that after the German elections, the real powers at the Eu will step in and sort them out. The real powers being Angela Merkel and.... Angela Merkel. :Hilarious
> 
> He seems to think that Ms Merkel won't be impressed with the Eu either and will give them a talking to.


It's on too late for me I'm afraid. I tend to start fading at about 9pm. Err, I mean I go out partying then and stumble in no earlier than 5am


----------



## Elles

MiffyMoo said:


> It's on too late for me I'm afraid. I tend to start fading at about 9pm. Err, I mean I go out partying then and stumble in no earlier than 5am


:Hilarious

The interesting stuff usually goes on after midnight. Probably then they think no one is watching, so start to say what they really think.  There are interviews with some very interesting people in the middle of the night.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> The interesting stuff usually goes on after midnight. Probably then they think no one is watching, so start to say what they really think.  There are interviews with some very interesting people in the middle of the night.


Maybe they've had a couple of glasses in the green room


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Eu can be snarky about the British people, what do they think of others?


This speak volumes doesn't it? The EU is already a dictatorship that rules 28 countries, it's morphed into an entity all of it's own rather than cooperation between countries


----------



## 1290423

What's the betting this thread will be on fire this evening?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> What's the betting this thread will be on fire this evening?


Of course it will be. Remainers will be bigging up there presence (small crowd there) in Florence and pick apart Mays speech. I predict it will all be negative from the Remainers


----------



## Elles

I was just watching Maggie's Bruges speech. 

I look forward to seeing our modern version. Florence and the Machine they called it last night. :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May is sending me to sleep with her speech.

So 5,000 more words later she still hasn't said we have left the EU, although early on in her speech I thought she was going to say this.

I wish she would get on with things instead of stalling the leaving process. It is easy to do just say "We have left the EU".

What a waste of time this speech was today.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May is sending me to sleep with her speech.
> 
> So 5,000 more words later she still hasn't said we have left the EU, although early on in her speech I thought she was going to say this.
> 
> I wish she would get on with things instead of stalling the leaving process. It is easy to do just say "We have left the EU".
> 
> What a waste of time this speech was today.


Well, we haven't left the EU yet, and we can't leave the EU yet. The earliest that will happen is two years after the triggering of Article 50. It may be longer than this if the EU grants an extension for the purpose of negotiating trade deals etc. We can walk out of _negotiations _any time we like (which, of course, would definitely be a silly idea), but we'll still be in the EU until the two years are up.

Nothing to do with her stalling it, it's just dem's da rules, innit?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Well, we haven't left the EU yet, and we can't leave the EU yet. The earliest that will happen is two years after the triggering of Article 50. It may be longer than this if the EU grants an extension for the purpose of negotiating trade deals etc. We can walk out of _negotiations _any time we like (which, of course, would definitely be a silly idea), but we'll still be in the EU until the two years are up.
> 
> Nothing to do with her stalling it, it's just dem's da rules, innit?


It was revealed that she can just say no deal and leave. So it is wrong believing that we can only leave in 2 years time.

She is only repeating stuff we already know. :Yawn


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> It was revealed that she can just say no deal and leave. So it is wrong believing that we can only leave in 2 years time.
> 
> She is only repeating stuff we already know. :Yawn


Hmm, do you have a source for that? Haven't seen it myself.

As to the speech content, of course she is repeating herself, there's not really anything new to say, is there?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> It was revealed that she can just say no deal and leave. So it is wrong believing that we can only leave in 2 years time.
> 
> She is only repeating stuff we already know. :Yawn


Leaving with no deal is plain suicide.
Especially when recession is looming already.
Hope May is too sensible for that.

This is something that the likes of Farage might have done.
If economy crashes then what?
Riots?
Economy is what puts bread on the table.
Not slogans.


----------



## stockwellcat.

What a waste of peoples time this speech was and valuable negotiating time as well with the EU.

She is now saying there is going to be an implementation period even though we will be leaving on 29th march 2019. Seriously this Government needs to get on with things instead of stalling things.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Especially when recession is looming already.


What recession. There ain't one looming in the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> If economy crashes then what?
> Riots?


Thats scaremongering.
No riots have taken place.
Our Economy is strong.

So she said 5,000 words to reiterate that we are leaving on 29th March 2019.

Alot of Brexitiers are not going to be happy with her speech as we will only be leaving in name only and still paying into the EU's pot thus being there cashcow and will still be under ECJ jurisdiction for at least 2 years after leaving.

What a waste of time and UK tax payers money this speech was.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Markets react negatively towards PM's speech in Florence. Pound slips.
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com


Mike Bird @Birdyword

I believe the movement of the pound suggests that financial markets are taking a dim view of the UK's Brexit position #news #analysis


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> She is only repeating stuff we already know. :Yawn





stockwellcat. said:


> What a waste of peoples time this speech was and valuable negotiating time as well with the EU.


I agree with you, don't choke! This PM is becoming more embarrassing by the minute.

This jetting from A to B must be costing the taxpayer a fortune, not forgetting the cost of the unnecessary General Election.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I agree with you, don't choke! This PM is becoming more embarrassing by the minute.
> 
> This jetting from A to B must be costing the taxpayer a fortune, not forgetting the cost of the unnecessary General Election.


She could have done this speech in London. Instead this morning she jets off to Florence in Italy and puts on a show :Banghead

I am fuming at various aspects of her speech and she wasted 30 to 45 minutes of my time so I could listen to her speech.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Right I off for a beer. Will catch up on this later.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Right I off for a beer. Will catch up on this later.


Good call, you need one - you're turning into a Remainer!  



stockwellcat. said:


> Of course it will be. Remainers will be bigging up there presence (small crowd there) in Florence and pick apart Mays speech. *I predict it will all be negative from the Remainers*


*runs*


----------



## Elles

I hate to say it @stockwellcat. but I told you so. 

Mrs May is living up to all my expectations. Or should I say down. 

It would be funny, but of course it's not. :Stop


----------



## Elles

Yes, we could have just left. No article 50. Gone. Ukip wanted to do just that, one of the main ukippers complained about it on QT a few weeks back. No way a government in favour of Remain would do a silly thing like that though.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Markets react negatively towards PM's speech in Florence. Pound slips.
> https://www.poundsterlinglive.com
> 
> 
> Mike Bird @Birdyword
> 
> I believe the movement of the pound suggests that financial markets are taking a dim view of the UK's Brexit position #news #analysis
> View attachment 326184


Pound fell in 24th June 2016 , when banks took grim view of Brexit.
Happy to agree with you.
Not happy about a pound. I am paid in pounds.

Yes ,I am no great fan of Juncker , I am critical of Merkel and it is so lovely, that Brexit left Britain marginalized and forementioned Juncker and Merkel have now free rein of EU.

Brexit handed EU to Germany on the plate.
For once Heseltine and I think the same.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well I watch her speech and that's time wasted and that I won't get back.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Good call, you need one - you're turning into a Remainer!


I would never dream of turning into a remainer, sorry to dampen your hopes


----------



## Elles

I can't watch it all. We're no longer strong and stable, we're now smooth and orderly.

I'm sure Eu citizens living in the uk and Gibraltar and Ireland will be pleased to hear it. Not.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> I would never dream of turning into a remainer, sorry to dampen your hopes


:Hilarious

The main problem we have is that out of 66 million people in the uk, Theresa May got the job. 

I've been trying really hard to give her the benefit of the doubt and even be nice about her, but now I give up. I concede defeat. She opens her mouth and speaks, but says nothing. Please, please though, not Boris. :Arghh


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I can't watch it all. We're no longer strong and stable, we're now smooth and orderly.
> 
> I'm sure Eu citizens living in the uk and Gibraltar and Ireland will be pleased to hear it. Not.


My understanding from the speech was the UK is still going to be the EU's cash cow when it leaves just in name on 29th March 2019 for maybe 2 years whilst in a transition period with the EU if they allow us to have the transition period. We will remain under the ECJ jurisdiction as well. But to me TM seemed very unsure how long these important things would last for. The rest of the speech was repeating what she had already said and everyone knew. Very disappointing speech.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I've been trying really hard to give her the benefit of the doubt


Haven't we all.


> She opens her mouth and speaks, but says nothing.


Well the markets reacted to her. So did I, but I won't repeat what I said on here.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Please, please though, not Boris. :Arghh


Jacob Rees Mogg would be better than TM at the moment.


----------



## Elles

Better him than Boris. At least he's watchable and genuine. He might want to send Britain down a black hole of fracking and turn what's left into Holland without the windmills, but at least he genuinely thinks it's for our own good.

Hmmm.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> The main problem we have is that out of 66 million people in the uk, Theresa May got the job.
> 
> s. :Arghh


And judging by her CV , lets face it she was hardly a success in her previous role! She should never have been given an interview let alone the job! Not a big fan of andrea leadsom but she should have been PM ,


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> And judging by her CV , lets face it she was hardly a success in her previous role! She should never have been given an interview let alone the job! Not a big fan of andrea leadsom but she should have been PM ,


Oh...what a choice...
I rather have you, dear!!!


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh...what a choice...
> I rather have you, dear!!!


I would have sunk us by now


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> I would have sunk us by now


But you look million times better than Leadsom.
You would be Awesome.

Putting Merkel to shame and drinking Jucker under the table ..than taking on juicy Marcon...he is into a bit older ladies. 
Plus you are funnier than Boris and you could mince that clown.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is what we get @DT for allowing an MP who was rubbish as Home Secretary and voted remain to take charge of Brexit and lead this country.


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> But you look million times better than Leadsom.
> You would be Awesome.
> 
> Putting Merkel to shame and drinking Jucker under the table ..than taking on juicy Marcon...he is into a bit older ladies.
> Plus you are funnier than Boris and you could mince that clown.


Erm! The roles starting to sound attractive! Particularly the juncker bit


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> This is what we get @DT for allowing an MP who was rubbish as Home Secretary and voted remain to take charge of Brexit and lead this country.


She couldn't lead an orgy in a brothel! She's just verified that

I predict a nigel comeback


----------



## cheekyscrip

DT said:


> She couldn't lead an orgy in a brothel! She's just verified that
> 
> I predict a nigel comeback


You could!!! !!!


----------



## 1290423

cheekyscrip said:


> You could!!! !!!


I could organise a p#ss up in a brewery too, that could be my forte


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> And judging by her CV , lets face it she was hardly a success in her previous role!


Pretty abysmal Home Secretary. Added to that she was a remainer.


----------



## Guest

I spend way too much time again trying to figure what was actually said on this thread since the last time I was here. This is what I concluded:

Brexiteers hate EU, no matter what. The benefits of Brexit are just that of not being in EU. No matter what. No matter that the believed/claimed benefits before the election vanish one after another. No matter that the most dreaded option "no deal" seems to become more and more likely. No matter that May is not trusted even by her own party members and Boris is despised by most. No matter that the insecurity is damaging businesses and people alike. No matter that racial attacts increased, as the racists thought they are quietly supported. No matter that the future is not looking brighter. The main and only thing is "UK is not part of EU" at any cost. 

Remainers keep posting facts, statistics, decisions being made by politiciams, analysis of the consequences of Brexit and the brexiteers just ridicule or ignore them. When politicians/government start saying things like "only those in favour of my Brexit views" are true Brits and "people should say positive things, not negative, if they really want to make things better in Britain", only remainers keep saying that that is genuinely scary, and doesn´t belong to a democracy. Britain is not a totalitaristic country and yet nowadays some politicians it is ok to say that if you critisize Brexit, you are not loyal to your country.

Isn´t anyone else scared of what will happen in another year? What is happening to thé Union Jack? It surely doesn´t seem to be ok now. It has become a divided nation without any idea of what is going to happen. The only sure thing is the poor will pick the bill.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> If the likes of @Goblin went down the pub every Friday night and constantly spouted the nonsense he does on here I bet there would have been a lot more than slap involved months ago.


Actually most people I know actually are able to cope with facts including the ones I am drinking with tonight. Those that do agree with me. You should try looking and understanding some of the facts at some time. Violence or talk of it, seems to only come from people supporting leave. Strange that.



stockwellcat. said:


> It was revealed that she can just say no deal and leave. So it is wrong believing that we can only leave in 2 years time.
> She is only repeating stuff we already know. :Yawn


Did you expect anything different from her speech? At least a transition period means infrastructure can potentially be put in place.. additional customs and controls etc to cope with WTO rules for a start. Not that I expect it to be. Trade deals should be pushing services not just the goods trade. Does complicate trade deals and the prevent copy/pasting plan. Wait.. did I say plan and May together as they do not seem to go together well.



DT said:


> I predict a nigel comeback


He's happy sniping from the sidelines. He knows brexit is a poisoned position and doesn't want to be able to be blamed when things go bad. He can simply scapegoat others.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Markets react negatively towards PM's speech in Florence. Pound slips.
> 
> I believe the movement of the pound suggests that financial markets are taking a dim view of the UK's Brexit position #news #analysis


Pound always drops when there is a new indication we will be going a hard brexit route.


----------



## Elles

There are I'd say a very small minority, 2 maybe, who voted Remain, who generally post sensible views based on current affairs and their own interesting interpretations and opinions. The rest have a tendency to swamp us with doomladen projections and emotive articles and memes unfortunately.

I don't include myself as I could be said to be a hypocrite. A Brexiter who voted Remain and a Tory Thatcherite who voted Green, so I don't count. :Bag

I still haven't read anything to improve my opinion of the Eu, its leaders, or the way it's heading. The very opposite unfortunately. Sadly I haven't read anything to improve my opinion of our current government either. It's not that Brexit was wrong, it could be very right, but our own government aren't currently helping matters. I don't expect the Eu to, bunch of petty, small minded, self interested bureaucrats that they are. Popinjays.

We could do with someone like Merkel ourselves.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Pound always drops when there is a new indication we will be going a hard brexit route.


Hard Brexit? :Hilarious

She said, we'll stay in the Eu until at least 2021, it might be a little longer (May 2022 perhaps?), because we need time for a smooth, orderly transition..

..to the next government so I don't have to deal with it. :Eggonface


----------



## havoc

There is nothing possible other than a hard Brexit. We're either in or out, the only variable is when.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> There is nothing possible other than a hard Brexit. We're either in or out, the only variable is when.


True.

I think Theresa May will be gone by then. She'll probably retire. I don't think she'll make much from after dinner speeches though. Who will rule in her stead is quite a concern.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Hard Brexit? :Hilarious
> 
> She said, we'll stay in the Eu until at least 2021, it might be a little longer (May 2022 perhaps?), because we need time for a smooth, orderly transition..
> 
> ..to the next government so I don't have to deal with it. :Eggonface


Interesting seeing May has vowed to fight the 2022 General Election as Tory leader.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> Interesting seeing May has vowed to fight the 2022 General Election as Tory leader.


Will it be her choice?


----------



## Elles

Betting is odds on for her to be replaced next year. The 2022 election is highly unlikely, it's even been suggested that she said herself that she'll go in 2019. I just googled it. 

ETA David Davis is favourite to replace her, then Amber Rudd.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Interesting seeing May has vowed to fight the 2022 General Election as Tory leader.


Its not her choice though. She can say what she wanta but if the 1922 comittee decide she has to go she has to go. They only need a certain amount of MP's to start a leadership contest as well. I forgot exactly how many. I cannot see he staying on long.

So who will be next?:

Boris Johnson
David Davis
Andrea Leedsom
Jacob Rees Mogg
Remember as well that under the fix term parliament act they do not have to ask Parliament for permission to hold another General Election until 2022.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Actually most people I know actually are able to cope with facts including the ones I am drinking with tonight. Those that do agree with me. You should try looking and understanding some of the facts at some time. Violence or talk of it, seems to only come from people supporting leave. Strange that.


I presume you are drinking tonight with your friends in Germany? Pop over here and spout your hatred agains the Brexit and see how that works out for you.

Actually, to be honest, in the actual pubs of the UK Brexit isn't even on the agenda so you'd probably just be laughed out of the pub whilst everyone got on with life.

As I said before, you must be mightily worried about your future in the EU to protest so much, us leavers in the U.K. have no such worries, bar the amount of time it may actually take leave. Sooner the better.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dr Pepper said:


> I presume you are drinking tonight with your friends in Germany? Pop over here and spout your hatred agains the Brexit and see how that works out for you.
> 
> Actually, to be honest, in the actual pubs of the UK Brexit isn't even on the agenda so you'd probably just be laughed out of the pub whilst everyone got on with life.
> 
> As I said before, you must be mightily worried about your future in the EU to protest so much, us leavers in the U.K. have no such worries, bar the amount of time it may actually take leave. Sooner the better.


No worries. Just


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 326268


This reference to all who follow the EU mantra?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> This reference to all who follow the EU mantra?


Naughty girl!!!
Forgiveness, because it is Friday!!!
"Brexit is good "mantra .Baaaaarexit is gooood ..baaaad,EU baaad ...


----------



## Honeys mum

Elles said:


> Mrs May is living up to all my expectations. Or should I say down.


Same here, although it's exactley what I expected of her. Have told my OH from day one she wouldn't deliver, she is after all a remainer.
So much for her brexit means Brexit. This is like Nigel quotes brexit in name only. Hopefully she will go before to long.

Nigel Farage says Theresa May's speech stuck 'two fingers up' at Leave voters | Metro News


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> I presume you are drinking tonight with your friends in Germany? Pop over here and spout your hatred agains the Brexit and see how that works out for you.


Yep, definately haven't any actual points to raise. In case you missed it, I am british with lots of people I know in the UK, majority of whom are not closed minded and actually voted to remain seeing brexit for what it is, damaging to the country. So it would work out fine for me. I could even talk to someone I know who works for the foreign office who states this government hasn't got a clue.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well Moody's have downgraded the UK's Credit Rating overnight from Aa1 to Aa2.
http://news.sky.com/story/amp/moody...ing-due-to-spending-and-brexit-fears-11048793

May's speech didn't go down well at all.

Very disappointed as a leave voter.

@DT I see that Farage is planning a come back in response to May's speech.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Yep, definately haven't any actual points to raise. In case you missed it, I am british with lots of people I know in the UK, majority of whom are not closed minded and actually voted to remain seeing brexit for what it is, damaging to the country. So it would work out fine for me. I could even talk to someone I know who works for the foreign office who states this government hasn't got a clue.


No I didn't miss that you are a expat and have been for many years.

You think people voting for change and a future outside the EU are close minded and those wanting the status quo are open minded? You seem to be loosing your grip on the English language, again.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Its not her choice though. She can say what she wanta but if the 1922 comittee decide she has to go she has to go. They only need a certain amount of MP's to start a leadership contest as well. I forgot exactly how many. I cannot see he staying on long.
> 
> So who will be next?:
> 
> Boris Johnson
> David Davis
> Andrea Leedsom
> Jacob Rees Mogg
> Remember as well that under the fix term parliament act they do not have to ask Parliament for permission to hold another General Election until 2022.


Any of those WOULD do me

Just please please please not amber rudd


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> I could even talk to someone I know who works for the foreign office who states this government hasn't got a clue.


You don't have to be in the Foreign Office to know that. Even as reminders with our closed minds had worked that one out.


----------



## Honeys mum

stockwellcat. said:


> Very disappointed as a leave voter.


Same here, she has betrayed us, but I am not suprised and exactly why I didn't vote for her.. This is not the brexit I voted for.



stockwellcat. said:


> @DT I see that Farage is planning a come back in response to May's speech.


According to the papers, he is taking a few days to think about it. I for one, hope he does.

Nigel Farage is BACK: May's Brexit offer to EU sparks leadership bid | Politics | News | Express.co.uk


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> True.
> 
> I think Theresa May will be gone by then. She'll probably retire. I don't think she'll make much from after dinner speeches though. Who will rule in her stead is quite a concern.


I think, like Thatcher, May will hold out until she's replaced. She's a disaster whichever way one voted in the referendum.

She should have resigned the morning after her disastrous snap election gamble.

Yet May continues to believe she is the right person to lead the country.

Bit ironic as things have or are turning out. Her incompetence is something the hardest of pro EU and Brexiteers can agree on!


----------



## KittenKong

Honeys mum said:


> According to the papers, he is taking a few days to think about it. I for one, hope he does.
> 
> Nigel Farage is BACK: May's Brexit offer to EU sparks leadership bid | Politics | News | Express.co.uk


I think many will be wiser following his support for Trump, Le Pen and far right German party the name which I can't recall at the moment.

He's since shown his true colours and is not exactly the cheerful bloke down the pub many thought he was.


----------



## havoc

Honeys mum said:


> Same here, she has betrayed us, but I am not suprised and exactly why I didn't vote for her.. This is not the brexit I voted for.


You can't have the Brexit you voted for - you never could. She betrayed you when she triggered Article 50 far too soon just to keep you happy knowing full well there was no plan in place and time was far too tight. She might have got away with the smoke and mirrors for longer if all the loyal and committed Brexiteers had voted for her, given her the majority she wanted but you didn't.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Yet May continues to believe she is the right person to lead the country.


I think it's known as 'being in denial'.


----------



## cheekyscrip

May or may not.
She is not the reason. Leaving single market is.
Brexit is the reason. If you think BJ would do better...
If the course is wrong what does it matter who holds the rudder?

If you want pound to recover stop that Brexit malarkey and stop destroying British economy that feeds us all.

Sorry that quote below is not my "original thought"...but just facts.









Lowest EVER credit rating for UK.

This is what is really thought about our economy.

This is what counts, not anyone's wishful thinking.

We have not sunk yet, because we still on the cliff.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh no look what I found in IKEA. Cracked me up laughing.


----------



## Honeys mum

havoc said:


> You can't have the Brexit you voted for - you never could. She betrayed you when she triggered Article 50 far too soon just to keep you happy knowing full well there was no plan in place and time was far too tight. She might have got away with the smoke and mirrors for longer if all the loyal and committed Brexiteers had voted for her, given her the majority she wanted but you didn't.


I do know that havoc, if you read my posts you would know. I have always said I never trusted her,as i said earlier, it was was I expected of her and also the reason I never voted for her. The sooner she goes the better as far as I am concerned.

Here is just one example.



Honeys mum said:


> Same here, although it's exactley what I expected of her. Have told my OH from day one she wouldn't deliver, she is after all a remainer.
> So much for her brexit means Brexit. This is like Nigel quotes brexit in name only. Hopefully she will go before to long.


----------



## Arnie83

Honeys mum said:


> Same here, she has betrayed us, but I am not suprised and exactly why I didn't vote for her.. *This is not the brexit I voted for.*


Given that the negotiations for the future relationship have not yet begun, may I ask on what are you basing this comment?


----------



## Dr Pepper

havoc said:


> You can't have the Brexit you voted for - you never could.


Actually that's not necessarily true. You seem to be presuming the EU will accept twenty billion and two years, that seems to be far from a given at the moment. So what's the alternative, crash out with no deals which is exactly the Brexit we voted for.

This could actually be a very clever move by Mrs May, she puts a deal forward and it's refused then it's the EU forcing the no deal Brexit. Could be win win for her.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> This could actually be a very clever move by Mrs May, she puts a deal forward and it's refused then it's the EU forcing the no deal Brexit. Could be win win for her.


I didn't think of it that way. You're right.


----------



## havoc

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually that's not necessarily true. You seem to be presuming the EU will accept twenty billion and two years, that seems to be far from a given at the moment. So what's the alternative, crash out with no deals which is exactly the Brexit we voted for.


As long as you voted for it exactly as it will happen then fair enough. I doubt many did though as the process wasn't exactly well known before the vote.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Honeys mum said:


> Same here, she has betrayed us, but I am not suprised and exactly why I didn't vote for her.. This is not the brexit I voted for.
> 
> According to the papers, he is taking a few days to think about it. I for one, hope he does.
> 
> Nigel Farage is BACK: May's Brexit offer to EU sparks leadership bid | Politics | News | Express.co.uk


I have just read that Rees-Mogg is pretty cross about it as well. End of the day, she didn't want to leave, her heart's not in it and she ought to hand the leaving job over to a real Brexiter, not someone who says they now are because that's what the people want. Nobody will ever do a good job if it's a job they don't want to do


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually that's not necessarily true. You seem to be presuming the EU will accept twenty billion and two years, that seems to be far from a given at the moment. So what's the alternative, crash out with no deals which is *exactly the Brexit we voted for*.
> 
> This could actually be a very clever move by Mrs May, she puts a deal forward and it's refused then it's the EU forcing the no deal Brexit. Could be win win for her.


"we" ?

All 17 million wanted to 'crash out' of the EU without a deal?


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> All 17 million wanted to 'crash out' of the EU without a deal?


I'm guessing many did for no other reason than they had no idea what leaving entailed. I said before the vote that a lot of leave voters would be very disappointed if they won because they weren't going to get what they thought they were voting for. It was individual speculation and 17 million leave voters were voting for 17 million different versions of leaving.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh no look what I found in IKEA. Cracked me up laughing.
> View attachment 326308


Goodness, thought it was a photoshopped joke when I saw it on Facebook. Fancy being named after a toilet brush!



Dr Pepper said:


> Actually that's not necessarily true. You seem to be presuming the EU will accept twenty billion and two years, that seems to be far from a given at the moment. So what's the alternative, crash out with no deals which is exactly the Brexit we voted for.
> 
> This could actually be a very clever move by Mrs May, she puts a deal forward and it's refused then it's the EU forcing the no deal Brexit. Could be win win for her.





Arnie83 said:


> "we" ?
> 
> All 17 million wanted to 'crash out' of the EU without a deal?


It could indeed be, but as Arnie says I'm sure not all who voted leave would have wanted that. Losing her majority in the snap election is evidence of that.

If the predictions of a disastrous No deal Brexit become a reality I don't particularly think it would be good for May's long term popularity!


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> I have just read that Rees-Mogg is pretty cross about it as well. End of the day, she didn't want to leave, her heart's not in it and she ought to hand the leaving job over to a real Brexiter, not someone who says they now are because that's what the people want. Nobody will ever do a good job if it's a job they don't want to do


I was totally amazed: Cameron stepped down as he 'did not consider he was the right captain to be steering the ship in its new direction' . . . (maybe not the exact quote, but thereabouts). In other words he was a remainer and the wrong person. I was struck dumb when TM, another remainer, took over; TBH her track record as Home Secretary was not impressive (tho' to be honest EU regulations hampered her to a great extent).


----------



## MiffyMoo

Calvine said:


> I was totally amazed: Cameron stepped down as he 'did not consider he was the right captain to be steering the ship in its new direction' . . . (maybe not the exact quote, but thereabouts). In other words he was a remainer and the wrong person. I was struck dumb when TM, another remainer, took over; TBH her track record as Home Secretary was not impressive (tho' to be honest EU regulations hampered her to a great extent).


Ugh, the fight over leadership was such a **** show, I'm surprised they didn't vote the cat in by mistake


----------



## Calvine

I though Andrea Leadsom was one who came across well when campaigning pre-Brexit. However, I do recall there was something she said about TM not having children or experiencing motherhood, and a lot of her colleagues turned against her and she had to apologise. Not sure of the details. But she was suddenly out of the running. It was all a bit odd.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MiffyMoo said:


> Ugh, the fight over leadership was such a **** show, I'm surprised they didn't vote the cat in by mistake


And again a flagrant missuse of tax payers money. You are right. TM needs to step aside and let a Brexitier take control of leading the UK out of the EU.

I think there is a rebellion brewing on the back benches of the Conservative party after yesterdays speech and TM delaying Brexit.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh no look what I found in IKEA. Cracked me up laughing.


Maybe they are suggesting he's full of shit!


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat. said:


> And again a flagrant missuse of tax payers money. You are right. She needs to step aside and let a Brexitier take control of leading the UK out of the EU.
> 
> I think there is a rebellion brewing on the back benches of the Conservative party after yesterdays speech and TM delaying Brexit.


Just please God not Boris! I've said this before, but I used to be a fan of his, but the way he suddenly decided that he was pro-Brexit and then stomped all over the campaign made my blood boil. It was so obvious that he was manoeuvring for top spot. Then when it came down to it and he knew that being PM now would be a poisoned chalice, he bolted.

Obviously this is pure speculation on my part, but I don't trust him as far as I can throw him.


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> I though Andrea Leadsom was one who came across well when campaigning pre-Brexit. However, I do recall there was something she said about TM not having children or experiencing motherhood, and a lot of her colleagues turned against her and she had to apologise. Not sure of the details. But she was suddenly out of the running. It was all a bit odd.


Yep ahe did come across the best of the lot, albeit few had heard of her prior to brexit. Sadly she blotted her copy boik when she made reference to old muvver may being childless!
We should have been on red alert then.


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> Yep ahe did come across the best of the lot,


I thought so, but like you, had never heard of her prior to then. But her comment that 'being a mother means you have a very real stake in the country's future' went down like a lead balloon and wrecked her chances.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> "we" ?
> 
> All 17 million wanted to 'crash out' of the EU without a deal?


Well seeing as the options were to either remain or leave, there were no middle ground or "soft" options, then yes WE voted to leave and fully leave.

Open question:-

Anyone here vote leave thinking we would be keeping certain parts of the EU?


----------



## havoc

Calvine said:


> I was struck dumb when TM, another remainer, took over


Why? Wanting the top job is nothing to do with what the electorate have voted for, it's about being ambitious and prepared to take advantage of situations to get what you want.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Dr Pepper said:


> Well seeing as the options were to either remain or leave, there were no middle ground or "soft" options, then yes WE voted to leave and fully leave.
> 
> Open question:-
> 
> Anyone here vote leave thinking we would be keeping certain parts of the EU?


Nope.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MiffyMoo said:


> Nope.


:Jawdrop


----------



## Elles

I can't see any reason for a delay of 5 years after the result, other than working on maintaining the status quo as much as possible and where out means closer to in. That is 5 years of uncertainty and a government unable to negotiate with countries outside the Eu.

The Eu seem quite pleased with the speech. I'm not surprised. They can keep stringing along the uk, getting more promises of money for the next five years and then say no and we jump off the cliff anyway.

The credit rating downgrade was decided before the speech and begun in 2013. Uncertainty seems to be the main problem. Probably jumping off the no deal, we're out cliff would be a better result. It'd be less uncertain. At least then some would be happy and optimistic and could get on with sorting things out.

The Eu want the uk to continue to pay billions into a pension pot I believe. I think there might be some issues raised about that one. The Eu have failed audit for at least 2 decades, so I can't see how they can be so sure that the uk owe them billions when they can't account for much of what they've already had with any accuracy.  Not something I've particularly researched though, so correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Calvine

havoc said:


> Why?


_Obviously_ I was not surprised that she wanted it; but that she got it (surely that was clearly what I meant if you read previous posts ).


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> so correct me if I'm wrong.


Their ex-accountant would agree with you; I read the book she wrote about it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I cannot see why we can't stick two fingers and leave, after all that's what was voted for if i remember. The ballot sheet said Remain or Leave nothing else. If Cameron was true to his word we would have left the next day after the referendum result but we know what happened. Therea May is not in my opinion the right person to take the UK out of the EU. True to her nature she has shafted the leave voters. We need a Brexitier doing this not a remainer.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> I can't see any reason for a delay of 5 years after the result, other than working on maintaining the status quo as much as possible and where out means closer to in. That is 5 years of uncertainty and a government unable to negotiate with countries outside the Eu.
> 
> The Eu seem quite pleased with the speech. I'm not surprised. They can keep stringing along the uk, getting more promises of money for the next five years and then say no and we jump off the cliff anyway.
> 
> The credit rating downgrade was decided before the speech and begun in 2013. Uncertainty seems to be the main problem. Probably jumping off the no deal, we're out cliff would be a better result. It'd be less uncertain. At least then some would be happy and optimistic and could get on with sorting things out.
> 
> The Eu want the uk to continue to pay billions into a pension pot I believe. I think there might be some issues raised about that one. The Eu have failed audit for at least 2 decades, so I can't see how they can be so sure that the uk owe them billions when they can't account for much of what they've already had with any accuracy.  Not something I've particularly researched though, so correct me if I'm wrong.


This is an article from 2012. They have been audited, but the result was always "the books are a shambles"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ly-undermines-credibility-of-EU-spending.html


----------



## MiffyMoo

Calvine said:


> Their ex-accountant would agree with you; I read the book she wrote about it.


What's it called? I would love to read it (although suspect it will make me very cross)


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> What's it called? I would love to read it (although suspect it will make me very cross)


Brussels Laid Bare: Marta Andreasen (2009 I think).


----------



## MiffyMoo

Calvine said:


> Brussels Laid Bare: Marta Andreasen (2009 I think).


Cool, going to download it. Thanks!


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> Cool, going to download it. Thanks!


It was the reason I voted out. It's not too long either.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> I cannot see why we can't stick two fingers and leave, after all that's what was voted for if i remember. The ballot sheet said Remain or Leave nothing else. If Cameron was true to his word we would have left the next day after the referendum result but we know what happened. Therea May is not in my opinion the right person to take the UK out of the EU. True to her nature she has shafted the leave voters. We need a Brexitier doing this not a remainer.


At least tho' he did the right thing and stepped down. But then (shock, horror, gulp) another remainer took his place.:Wideyed


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> Cool, going to download it. Thanks!


It starts off with a bit of packing, how she applied for the job, got the interview, went for the interview and got the job etc . . . you can flick thro that if you want.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Nope.


Not passporting? Not Euratom?


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Well seeing as the options were to either remain or leave, there were no middle ground or "soft" options, then yes WE voted to leave and fully leave.


And you think if the option had been phrased as "crashing out of the EU with no deal" then all 17 million would have voted for it. Somehow I doubt that.

(My last comment on that particular bit of hyperbole.)


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Not passporting? Not Euratom?


Can't speak for Miffy but passports and border controls were a obvious one and worth loosing.

Euratom, can't see that's s biggie and just remind me who is financing the new power station (well ok France because they already have a stake in it, but apart from them)? Personally I would rather the UK was self-sufficient power wise than reliant on a subsidiary of the EU.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> And you think if the option had been phrased as "crashing out of the EU with no deal" then all 17 million would have voted for it. Somehow I doubt that.
> 
> (My last comment on that particular bit of hyperbole.)


Well I guess seeing as remainers didn't seem to understand what "leave the EU" meant the term "crashing out" may have helped them. To me if I leave something I don't take half of whatever it is with me, do you?

"Leave" is a very simple word to understand and leaves (see, an actual example!!) no room for interpretation.


----------



## Honeys mum

MiffyMoo said:


> I have just read that Rees-Mogg is pretty cross about it as well. End of the day, she didn't want to leave, her heart's not in it and she ought to hand the leaving job over to a real Brexiter, not someone who says they now are because that's what the people want. Nobody will ever do a good job if it's a job they don't want to do


very well put MM totally agree .



stockwellcat. said:


> I cannot see why we can't stick two fingers and leave, after all that's what was voted for if i remember. The ballot sheet said Remain or Leave nothing else


It cetainally did SWC.


----------



## Zaros

MrsZee said:


> *What is happening to the Union Jack? *.


As far as I know, nothing.

It still represents what it has always represented; the winning of two world wars, one world cup, and a night out at the proms, or an evening with Edward Elgar.

Some folks also believe that under the Union Jack you can live in the past and imagine you're still a world leader.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Can't speak for Miffy but passports and border controls were a obvious one and worth loosing.
> 
> Euratom, can't see that's s biggie and just remind me who is financing the new power station (well ok France because they already have a stake in it, but apart from them)? Personally I would rather the UK was self-sufficient power wise than reliant on a subsidiary of the EU.


Passporting is not about passports and border controls, it's about financial services.

Euratom is not about who owns power stations. Among other things it's about safeguarding the transport of nuclear materials. Leaving it may disrupt the delivery of isotopic cancer treatment to British patients.

Clearly you voted to discontinue such elements of EU 'membership', since you didn't want to retain any of them, but I wonder if you did that after due consideration of whether it might be a universally good idea or not.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Dr Pepper said:


> Can't speak for Miffy but passports and border controls were a obvious one and worth loosing.
> 
> Euratom, can't see that's s biggie and just remind me who is financing the new power station (well ok France because they already have a stake in it, but apart from them)? Personally I would rather the UK was self-sufficient power wise than reliant on a subsidiary of the EU.


He means financial passporting. It will be interesting to see what deal is made there. All the financial institutions are not having a conniption over it; DB only just signed a new 25 year lease agreement for larger office space in London. They are also expanding their Wealth Management to London. If memory serves me right, ING also expanded their UK operations after the referendum. There is also rumours of a DB Barclays merger. But that's just a rumour.

London is the world's top financial centre, and anything the EU does to us, we can do to them in spades; they know this and will be going into negotiations with that in mind.

Let's see how the negotiations go (really, really hoping it's not TM doing the negotiating though)


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Passporting is not about passports and border controls, it's about financial services.
> 
> Euratom is not about who owns power stations. Among other things it's about safeguarding the transport of nuclear materials. Leaving it may disrupt the delivery of isotopic cancer treatment to British patients.
> 
> Clearly you voted to discontinue such elements of EU 'membership', since you didn't want to retain any of them, but I wonder if you did that after due consideration of whether it might be a universally good idea or not.


Never heard of the term passporting then. Quick bit of research though and yes seems obvious that would go when we leave the EU, why would it not?

As for Euratom it covers very many areas one of which being the supply of nuclear power. It's also actually not part of the EU but a seperate arrangement.

As I said I voted LEAVE.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> It cetainally did SWC.


Well the remainers seem to think their ballot sheet said something else. I cannot see where it says "Leave The European Union With a Transitional Deal" or any kind of deal or do not remember it saying this. The Question was simple with two answers.

@MiffyMoo Rees Moog is annoyed with TM and I have a feeling he is going to lead a rebellion within the Conservative Party to oust her (Leadership Challenge).

My x went in the *Leave The European Union* box. Leave that is for the remainers not stay or contribute to the EU and be there cashcow after we leave the EU or have a transitional deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is my opinion.

I am all for leaving the EU and feel it would be cheaper and easier to just crash out of the EU with no deal (no monies then exchange hands). As highlighted above over 17 million people voted to "*Leave The European Union*" not negoiate with them, not be there cash cow when we leave the EU, not have a transitional deal. The EU are out to screw the UK and are making it incredibly difficult as well in the process for us to leave. Yes we can just leave by the way remainers.

Again Theresa May is not the person to lead the UK out of the EU, a Brexitier PM is needed for this not a remainer PM.


----------



## Elles

There are hundreds, nay millions of companies and countries that operate outside the Eu, with the Eu and with each other. There are other regulatory bodies that are acceptable to the Eu and to other countries. The uk can come to agreements with Eurotom and international ruling bodies without being in the Eu, or actually in Eurotom. I gather that only Eu countries are Eurotom members and we will no longer be permitted to be full members of Eurotom once we leave the Eu.

The question still remains though. Are we actually leaving the Eu, or was the referendum itself a bigger con than the message on the bus.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the remainers seem to think their ballot sheet said something else.


Which remainers? I and all those others who voted remain have no more power or control over what's happening than all those who voted leave and yet every time things don't go the way you want we're blamed for it. Do you think we have some great influence over the EU and legal process?


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> He means financial passporting. It will be interesting to see what deal is made there. All the financial institutions are not having a conniption over it; DB only just signed a new 25 year lease agreement for larger office space in London. They are also expanding their Wealth Management to London. If memory serves me right, ING also expanded their UK operations after the referendum. There is also rumours of a DB Barclays merger. But that's just a rumour.
> 
> London is the world's top financial centre, and anything the EU does to us, we can do to them in spades; they know this and will be going into negotiations with that in mind.
> 
> Let's see how the negotiations go (really, really hoping it's not TM doing the negotiating though)





Dr Pepper said:


> Never heard of the term passporting then. Quick bit of research though and yes seems obvious that would go when we leave the EU, why would it not?
> 
> As for Euratom it covers very many areas one of which being the supply of nuclear power. It's also actually not part of the EU but a seperate arrangement.
> 
> As I said I voted LEAVE.


The point is not what we end up with, which may be more or less disadvantageous - who knows - but the clear evidence that people voted Leave without understanding the potential implications.

That's fine if you don't care what they are, and if the severing of all and every tie with the EU is your sole ambition. Hence the good Doctor's dismissive rallying cry regarding any part of the EU that the Leave voters wanted to retain, despite not knowing what all the parts of the EU actually are.

As someone who likes to consider as many relevant facts as I can before making a decision that approach seems to do a great disservice to the people in the UK who may suffer as a result - fatally, in some cases - but each to their own I guess.

This comment, incidentally, I would have to suggest is somewhat over-optimistic. "London is the world's top financial centre, and *anything the EU does to us, we can do to them in spades*; they know this and will be going into negotiations with that in mind."

If the EU require euro-denominated derivatives to be cleared by companies within the EU, as they are planning for post-Brexit, what exactly will we do to them in retaliatory spades?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> The point is not what we end up with, which may be more or less disadvantageous - who knows - but the clear evidence that people voted Leave without understanding the potential implications.
> 
> That's fine if you don't care what they are, and if the severing of all and every tie with the EU is your sole ambition. Hence the good Doctor's dismissive rallying cry regarding any part of the EU that the Leave voters wanted to retain, despite not knowing what all the parts of the EU actually are.
> 
> As someone who likes to consider as many relevant facts as I can before making a decision that approach seems to do a great disservice to the people in the UK who may suffer as a result - fatally, in some cases - but each to their own I guess.
> 
> This comment, incidentally, I would have to suggest is somewhat over-optimistic. "London is the world's top financial centre, and *anything the EU does to us, we can do to them in spades*; they know this and will be going into negotiations with that in mind."
> 
> If the EU require euro-denominated derivatives to be cleared by companies within the EU, as they are planning for post-Brexit, what exactly will we do to them in retaliatory spades?


Were we given a list of every single thing that would be negotiated? No. Were we aware that everything would have to be negotiated? Yes.

As you're so worried about Euro-denominated derivs, here you go. Don't forget that I also said "it's all up for negotiation".

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/...in-euro-clearing-after-brexit-gains-eu-allies


----------



## havoc

MiffyMoo said:


> Were we aware that everything would have to be negotiated? Yes.


I think the Brit idea of negotiations was that everyone should do what we want and be thankful we let them.


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> Nope.


Nope here either


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> I think the Brit idea of negotiations was that everyone should do what we want and be thankful we let them.


Well if that's how you want to see it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I never thought, at any point, that we'd walk in, slap a list of demands down, and walk out the victors. Especially with Druncker at the helm, it was always obvious that we would have to fight tooth and nail


----------



## Dr Pepper

havoc said:


> Which remainers? I and all those others who voted remain have no more power or control over what's happening than all those who voted leave and yet every time things don't go the way you want we're blamed for it. Do you think we have some great influence over the EU and legal process?


No, it's simpler than that. Those that voted leave voted to leave the EU in its entirety. The remain muppets seem to think there was some halfway deal to be done. We don't blame you at all, we blame the government for dragging their heals. The remain camp is now of no consequence since leaving the EU was enshrined in law.


----------



## Jesthar

Dr Pepper said:


> You seem to be *loosing *your grip on the English language, again.


Oh, the irony... 



stockwellcat. said:


> Oh no look what I found in IKEA. Cracked me up laughing.
> View attachment 326308


Sadly a photoshop job, but one can dream, and I still love it! 



MiffyMoo said:


> Ugh, the fight over leadership was such a **** show, *I'm surprised they didn't vote the cat in by mistake*


That would probably have stood us in better stead - at least some of the EU politicians would have _liked_ the cat!


----------



## MiffyMoo

Jesthar said:


> at least some of the EU politicians would have _liked_ the cat!


Doubt it


----------



## Happy Paws2

Sorry


----------



## Dr Pepper

Jesthar said:


> Oh, the irony...


I'll give you that one 

Although I was on about the language rather than a typo.


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> That would probably have stood us in better stead - at least some of the EU politicians would have _liked_ the cat!


Why do we want them to like anything about us or care that we're leaving? We've made our point as far as they're concerned and there isn't any reason they should feather bed Brexit. As has been pointed out - we can just leave with nothing.


----------



## Elles

The negotiators are supposed to be sensible, intelligent adults, not children playing tit for tat.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Why do we want them to like anything about us or care that we're leaving? We've made our point as far as they're concerned and there isn't any reason they should feather bed Brexit. As has been pointed out - we can just leave with nothing.


But Theresa May is determined to keep us in the EU for a transition period. I did not vote for that and I most certainly did not vote to have the UK pump money into the EU when we leave. She told us all this yesterday in her waste of a time speech in Florence. As a result of her speech Moody's downgraded the UK's credit status from Aa1 to Aa2 and the trading markets reacted negatively as well.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> But Theresa May is determined to keep us in the EU for a transition period. I did not vote for that and I most certainly did not vote to have the UK pump money into the EU when we leave.


Did not vote for it or just didn't realise it was a possibility? There was always every likelihood we would have to pay something - yes the amount should be subject to scrutiny and negotiation but it was never going to be nothing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Did not vote for it or just didn't realise it was a possibility?


It wasnt on the ballot paper so I didnt vote for that.

I voted to leave which we can do without all this drama.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Elles said:


> The negotiators are supposed to be sensible, intelligent adults, not children playing tit for tat.


To be fair that was never going to happen given the billions the EU will have to find when we leave. They think they hold all the cards, when they realise we don't want any of those cards serious negotiations may possibly commence.

Mrs May has made a sensible offer.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> This is my opinion.
> 
> I am all for leaving the EU and feel it would be cheaper and easier to just crash out of the EU with no deal (no monies then exchange hands). As highlighted above over 17 million people voted to "*Leave The European Union*" not negoiate with them, not be there cash cow when we leave the EU, not have a transitional deal. The EU are out to screw the UK and are making it incredibly difficult as well in the process for us to leave. Yes we can just leave by the way remainers.
> 
> Again Theresa May is not the person to lead the UK out of the EU, a Brexitier PM is needed for this not a remainer PM.


Yep, Theresa May is tomorrow's chip paper
let's just cut the cord! 
Bye bye EU
I seriously hope now that the leave voters rebel


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Yep, Theresa May is tomorrow's chip paper
> let's just cut the cord!
> Bye bye EU
> I seriously hope now that the leave voters rebel


We might not have to if the EU reject Mrs May's offer.


----------



## 1290423

Just to clarify any misunderstanding should there be any
. I voted out because I wanted out
No half measures
pure and simple
Out!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> We might not have to if the EU reject Mrs May's offer.


But she may then change her mind again and plea bargain with them. I don't trust her.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> But she may then change her mind again and plea bargain with them. I don't trust her.


She blinked! She blew it! No faith! And NO Sec ond chance. A sticky plaster ain't going to fix this!


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> But she may then change her mind again and plea bargain with them. I don't trust her.


We can but hope she's smarter than she appears. Leaving the EU is apparently a long game. After all she did famously say "no deal is better than a bad deal". Let's see if that's the game she's playing. I hope so.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> We can but hope she's smarter than she appears. Leaving the EU is apparently a long game. After all she did famously say "no deal is better than a bad deal". Let's see if that's the game she's playing. I hope so.


are you on drugs?
Shes a blue through and through feathering her own nest!


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> are you on drugs?
> Shes a blue through and through feathering her own nest!


Well to be fair I'm on my second bottle of wine.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Shes a blue through and through feathering her own nest!


No she's a remainer and a blue through and through feathering the remainers nest.

Get rid of her (leadership challenge) and put a true Brexitier in charge. It's time for her to go.


----------



## 1290423

Lol otherhalf here just come back and said the two-year deal may not be a bad thing after all! No nookie tonight sunbeam!


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> No a remainer and a blue through and through feathering the remainers nest.
> 
> Get rid of her (leadership challenge) and put a true Brexitier in charge. It's time for her to go.


Past¡! She certainly exceeded her sell by date


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> We can but hope she's smarter than she appears.


What like listening to people who know what a disaster simply leaving would be without any infrastructure in place to ease things. Maybe you should check what would happen in regards to customs. Maybe you want a hard border between NI and Ireland (with it's implications) and between Spain and Gibraltar. I've posted a couple of times a link to a leave campaigner site which describes why simply leaving will not work. So whilst some like the sound of it, many looking at things more realistically, are looking at how to minimise the damage including those from the leave side. If you think a 4% majority of voters would all agree to simply dropping everything you should perhaps think again. It certainly wasn't what they voted for.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Past


And present. She hasn't changed.


----------



## samuelsmiles

I have noticed that the PF poll now shows the 'definitely outs' at 45% and the 'definitely ins' at 37%. I'm not at all surprised, seeing how Juncker and Barnier are behaving.

As each day passes I am so pleased I made the right decision to vote leave, however, I wish we had a leader with the charisma and dynamism to get this done with more conviction.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I've posted a couple of times a link to a leave campaigner site which describes why simply leaving will not work.


How many times did you post it 

The ironic thing is, is the UK can just leave the EU without wasting anymore time and money on them.

May has to go and a true Brexitier PM take over like Jacob Rees Mogg/Boris Johnson/David Davis. Remainer May's method hasn't worked.

A Hard Brexit is the answer. After all people voted Leave not to Remain. It was a simple question with a choice of two simple answers so why make it complicated?

No one voted to keep there left foot in there right foot out, in, out shake it all about.

The UK as a whole chose to Leave The European Union.


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Lol otherhalf here just come back and said the two-year deal may not be a bad thing after all! No nookie tonight sunbeam!


Tooooooo much information.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> No one voted to keep there left foot in there right foot out, in, out shake it all about.
> .


That's the Labour Party according to Andrew Neil on This Week.


----------



## Dr Pepper

samuelsmiles said:


> I have noticed that the PF poll now shows the 'definitely outs' at 45% and the 'definitely ins' at 37%. I'm not at all surprised, seeing how Juncker and Barnier are behaving.
> 
> As each day passes I am so pleased I made the right decision to vote leave, however, I wish we had a leader with the charisma and dynamism to get this done with more conviction.


Unfortunately we are left with Miss Piggy in charge, fortunately leaving the EU is now a done deal so it's just a matter of who the figure head is when it comes to pass.


----------



## 1290423

samuelsmiles said:


> I have noticed that the PF poll now shows the 'definitely outs' at 45% and the 'definitely ins' at 37%. I'm not at all surprised, seeing how Juncker and Barnier are behaving.
> 
> As each day passes I am so pleased I made the right decision to vote leave, however, I wish we had a leader with the charisma and dynamism to get this done with more conviction.


Thank you for bringing me back down to earth, refreshing to read a positive response


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Unfortunately we are left with Miss Piggy in charge, fortunately leaving the EU is now a done deal so it's just s matter of who the figure head is when comes to pass.


Miss piggy might just become pork chop pretty soon!


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> What like listening to people who know what a disaster simply leaving would be without any infrastructure in place to ease things. Maybe you should check what would happen in regards to customs. Maybe you want a hard border between NI and Ireland (with it's implications) and between Spain and Gibraltar. I've posted a couple of times a link to a leave campaigner site which describes why simply leaving will not work. So whilst some like the sound of it, many looking at things more realistically, are looking at how to minimise the damage including those from the leave side. If you think a 4% majority of voters would all agree to simply dropping everything you should perhaps think again. It certainly wasn't what they voted for.


Take it you skipped the pub tonight then! When is it going to finally sink in? Whether it be 4% or 40% the verdict were out! No half deals pure and simple OUT!


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Miss piggy might just become pork chop pretty soon!


My hope is (very remote hope but a hope all the same) Mrs May goes and someone with a full set of nuts takes her place and withdraws from the EU with immediate effect so we no longer try to appease a dictatorship we never voted for.

Where's me wine.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> I'm on my second bottle of wine.


Lucky you. This is my first night stone cold sober for a whole 7 days (drinking with my dad for a week)


----------



## MiffyMoo

Dr Pepper said:


> My hope is (very remote hope but a hope all the same) Mrs May goes and someone with a full set of nuts takes her place and withdraws from the EU with immediate effect so we no longer try to appease a dictatorship we never voted for.
> 
> Where's me wine.


None of it matters; I've just been told that we're meant to be struck by a huge meteorite today, so we should all say our goodbyes and get lashed


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> My hope is (very remote hope but a hope all the same) Mrs May goes and someone with a full set of nuts takes her place and withdraws from the EU with immediate effect so we no longer try to appease a dictatorship we never voted for.
> 
> Where's me wine.


It's a cabinet savignon lidl special at £2.99 a bottle tonight so you are missing nuffing , tis a rough as a badgers jacksy


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> None of it matters; I've just been told that we're meant to be struck by a huge meteorite today, so we should all say our goodbyes and get lashed


Nah that's next month! We won't exist then


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> It's a cabinet savignon lidl special at £2.99 a bottle tonight so you are missing nuffing , tis a rough as a badgers jacksy


Oh God, Lidl wine you need help. I would say enjoy but that's not a option. Do you not have a Waitrose?

Then again wine is wine!


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Nah that's next month! We won't exist then


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> My hope is (very remote hope but a hope all the same) Mrs May goes and someone with a full set of nuts takes her place and withdraws from the EU with immediate effect so we no longer try to appease a dictatorship we never voted for.
> 
> Where's me wine.


Is there anyone with a full set of nuts in the Conservative party? We know labour Don't own a set between them, but even suggesting there may be an undiscovered set amongst the cons is erm a bit far fetched to say the least


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh God, Lidl wine you need help. I would say enjoy but that's not a option. Do you not have a Waitrose?
> 
> Then again wine is wine!


Yep! I did waitrose last week, I have a card you know, just four bottles and 25% off


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Is there anyone with a full set of nuts in the Conservative party? We know labour Don't own a set between them, but even suggesting there may be an undiscovered set amongst the cons is erm a bit far fetched to say the lrast


As I said I'm now on my second bottle of wine.......


----------



## MiffyMoo

DT said:


> Is there anyone with a full set of nuts in the Conservative party? We know labour Don't own a set between them, but even suggesting there may be an undiscovered set amongst the cons is erm a bit far fetched to say the lrast


MAAAAGGGGIIIEEE :Arghh:Arghh


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Yep! I did waitrose last week, I have a card you know, just four bottles and 25% off


I wait for the spend £40 get £8 off vouchers to come through the post!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> The ironic thing is, is the UK can just leave the EU without wasting anymore time and money on them.


Causing immense harm to business and the economy, increased tensions on the irish border to name but two things.



> A Hard Brexit is the answer. After all people voted Leave not to Remain. It was a simple question with a choice of two simple answers so why make it complicated?


Answer to what.. to totally wrecking the country and making it so it takes even longer to start any recovery. Let's immediately throw out all trade deals around the world, passporting rights and a multitude of other things without anything to replace them. Let's not have people recruited to actually do what is necessary.



> No one voted to keep there left foot in there right foot out, in, out shake it all about.


Well considering you were talking about trading under EEA rules some time ago you seem to have changed your mind since the vote. You obviously know the minds of everyone who voted leave and speak for all of them. Many people voted to simply get rid of freedom of movement for example.



> The UK as a whole chose to Leave The European Union.


In a non-binding referendum, 37% of the population stated they wanted to leave but "leave" has never been defined. Maybe you can point out where in the leave campaign it stated the terms of leaving and it's subsequent consequences.


----------



## 1290423

I've got loads of £6 off a £30 spent but expire 1st October, I shall use them all as stocking up for xmas


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> I wait for the spend £40 get £8 off vouchers to come through the post!


I just wait to go to my dad's and he uncorks a bottle of wine and then 4 bottles later.....

Not bad for free wine from my dad.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Causing immense harm to business and the economy, increased tensions on the irish border to name but two things.
> 
> Answer to what.. to totally wrecking the country and making it so it takes even longer to start any recovery. Let's immediately throw out all trade deals around the world, passporting rights and a multitude of other things without anything to replace them. Let's not have people recruited to actually do what is necessary.
> 
> Well considering you were talking about trading under EEA rules some time ago you seem to have changed your mind since the vote. You obviously know the minds of everyone who voted leave and speak for all of them. Many people voted to simply get rid of freedom of movement for example.
> 
> In a non-binding referendum, 37% of the population stated they wanted to leave but "leave" has never been defined. Maybe you can point out where in the leave campaign it stated the terms of leaving and it's subsequent consequences.


where were the other 63% ? In prison, on drugs out the country? Pllease explain! And hard facts only please!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Causing immense harm to business and the economy, increased tensions on the irish border to name but two things.
> 
> Answer to what.. to totally wrecking the country and making it so it takes even longer to start any recovery. Let's immediately throw out all trade deals around the world, passporting rights and a multitude of other things without anything to replace them. Let's not have people recruited to actually do what is necessary.
> 
> Well considering you were talking about trading under EEA rules some time ago you seem to have changed your mind since the vote. You obviously know the minds of everyone who voted leave and speak for all of them. Many people voted to simply get rid of freedom of movement for example.
> 
> In a non-binding referendum, 37% of the population stated they wanted to leave but "leave" has never been defined. Maybe you can point out where in the leave campaign it stated the terms of leaving and it's subsequent consequences.


Yes same old above. I just don't bother reading the scarmeongering.

Why does it bother you so much? You aren't even in the UK. I know you're British but you made it clear to us on a number of occassions you have dual nationality or something so doesn't affect you.


----------



## MiffyMoo

DT said:


> I've got loads of £6 off a £30 spent but expire 1st October, I shall use them all as stocking up for xmas


I have an account with Naked Wine. If you pay £25 a month you get a discount on all the wine, so I save up all my £25s and then buy a couple of boxes if I have people coming to stay for the weekend


----------



## Elles

Niall Ferguson is interesting about Maggie. He's also a Remainer who pushed for the Remain camp, but now says he was wrong and is a Brexiter. He has quite an interesting history himself and his views on why he was wrong are quite good too. Not sure that he's exactly a popular person though, or valid. 

Not all of the population were eligible to vote or bothered to DT.


----------



## MiffyMoo

DT said:


> where were the other 63% ? In prison, on drugs out the country? Pllease explain! And hard facts only please!


Goblin's still angry that they refused to extend the vote to toddlers


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> I just wait to go to my dad's and he uncorks a bottle of wine and then 4 bottles later.....
> 
> Not bad for free wine from my dad.


My Dad has senility, so just hard work ( never have a granny annex!). Can I adopt your Dad though?


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes same old above. I just don't bother reading the scarmeongering.
> 
> Why does it bother you so much? You aren't even in the UK. I know you're British but you made it clear to us on a number of occassions you have dual nationality or something so doesn't affect you.


Nah! come on, let's give goblin a chance! They have just told us, quiet precisely that 37% voted to leave so I want to know exactly what the others 63% voted!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Niall Ferguson is interesting about Maggie. He's also a Remainer who pushed for the Remain camp, but now says he was wrong and is a Brexiter. He has quite an interesting history himself and his views on why he was wrong are quite good too. Not sure that he's exactly a popular person though, or valid.
> 
> Not all of the population were eligible to vote or bothered to DT.


That's funny because my dad admitted to me two days ago he voted remain and now backs leave. He said Theresa May's speech was pathetic and that people voted leave so why haven't we left the EU yet.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Dr Pepper said:


> My Dad has senility, so just hard work ( never have a granny annex!). Can I adopt your Dad though?


You can have mine, he's a grumpy bugger


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Nan! on come on, let's give goblin a chance!  They have just told us, quiet precisely that 37% voted to leave so I want to know exactly what the others 63% voted!


Really lets look at the real facts:
https://www.electoralcommission.org...u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

51.9% (rounded up 52%) of people who took part in the referendum and didn't spoil there ballot sheets voted leave  Not 37%


----------



## 1290423

i am waiting goblin.......or should that be gobbledeguck?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> i am waiting goblin.......or should that be gobbledeguck?


He's down the pub again


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Really lets look at the real facts:
> https://www.electoralcommission.org...u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information
> 
> 51.9% (rounded up 52%) of people who took part in the referendum and didn't spoil there ballot sheets voted leave  Not 37%


I'm waiting for goblin! Please don't help him! You muppet xxxxx but I loves you really


----------



## Dr Pepper

MiffyMoo said:


> I have an account with Naked Wine. If you pay £25 a month you get a discount on all the wine, so I save up all my £25s and then buy a couple of boxes if I have people coming to stay for the weekend


I used to be with them until they sold out to Majestic.



DT said:


> Nah! come on, let's give goblin a chance! They have just told us, quiet precisely that 37% voted to leave so I want to know exactly what the others 63% voted!


They didn't understand the consequences so went with the status quo.



MiffyMoo said:


> You can have mine, he's a grumpy bugger


Ok, is a swap a possibility?


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Why does it bother you so much? You aren't even in the UK. I know you're British but you made it clear to us on a number of occassions you have dual nationality or something so doesn't affect you.


Er, aren't you the one who confirmed your dual nationality applying for your Irish (EU) passport soon after the referendum?


----------



## 1290423

Psssst you wanna borrow my calculator goblin?


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> Er, aren't you the one who confirmed your dual nationality applying for your Irish (EU) passport soon after the referendum?


Think most of us could understand that one! And your point is?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Dr Pepper said:


> I used to be with them until they sold out to Majestic.
> 
> They didn't understand the consequences so went with the status quo.
> 
> Ok, is a swap a possibility?


oh wait, that's definitely not what I offered. I was expecting a straight unload


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Er, aren't you the one who confirmed your dual nationality applying for your Irish (EU) passport soon after the referendum?


No I didn't get one in the end. My loyalities are with the UK.


----------



## havoc

You're still an Irish citizen whether you got your passport or not. You can still apply for one at any time. It's a comfortable position to be in.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> You're still an Irish citizen whether you got your passport or not.


Northern Irish so I can choose British or Irish. Last time I looked they are still in the UK and I am still British.


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> You're still an Irish citizen whether you got your passport or not. You can still apply for one at any time. It's a comfortable position to be in.


Have you been to Ireland? Are you familiar with the borders?


----------



## Dr Pepper

MiffyMoo said:


> oh wait, that's definitely not what I offered. I was expecting a straight unload


Forget that!


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> You're still an Irish citizen whether you got your passport or not. You can still apply for one at any time. It's a comfortable position to be in.


Hellooooooo


----------



## havoc

DT said:


> Have you been to Ireland? Are you familiar with the borders?


Yes - what's your point?


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> Yes - what's your point?


That was my question to you!
And Your point is?


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Northern Irish so I can choose British or Irish. Last time I looked they are still in the UK and I am still British.


You're both. You automatically hold dual nationality SWC.


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> You're both. You automatically hold dual nationality SWC.


as would anyone living in another country who applies for it! That said I am a little confused as friends of ours, close friends have applied for Portuguese citizenship, and have been granted it, but they tell us they can only spend 90 days in the uk now ? . . .? Did I mishear them? Only don't want to question them and sound thick like


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> You're both. You automatically hold dual nationality SWC.


Only if I claim it.

I haven't claimed dual nationality.

I was bought up British, dad was in British army and he never claimed dual nationality nor have I and he has always said he is British and holds a British passport even though he was born in Antrim. I was told by my dad I was British and have never claimed my dual nationality. I have to be living in Ireland for a period of time to claim it. I don't have a PRSN number as that's the wrong side of the border. Northern Ireland is still in the UK. Plus many people in Northern Ireland claim UK citizenship over Irish citizenship.


----------



## 1290423

Anyway couldn't give a chuff what stock wells nationality is, he could be an uber driver for all I care! I voted out, I want out, and don't care how hard it it gets


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> I haven't claimed dual nationality


You don't have to - you just have it. I'm not sure if you can renounce your Irish citizenship.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Anyway couldn't give a chuff what stock wells nationality is, he could be an uber driver


:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> You don't have to - you just have it. I'm not sure if you can renounce your Irish citizenship.


I didn't claim it so how can I renounce it. You have to claim a nationality of a country first before you become a dual national.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> I voted out, I want out


Me to.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> You don't have to - you just have it. I'm not sure if you can renounce your Irish citizenship.


Northern Ireland maybe under direct rule from Westminster soon as they cannot form a Devolved Government so they won't be leaving the UK anytime soon.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> Me to.


Trouble is there's a whole bunch of muppets out there that don't understand the simplicity of a "leave" or "remain" vote.

Not sure how much simpler they needed it. Thank God they lost the referendum.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> I didn't claim it so how can I renounce it. You have to claim a nationality of a country first before you become a dual national


You don't. You are, as you were before, confusing applying for a passport with applying for citizenship. Just as you are automatically hold British citizenship you also hold Irish citizenship.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@havoc
People in Northern Ireland can declare themselves as being British, Northern Irish or Irish or both British and Irish. They have the choice to choose. My dad bought me up to believe I am British, he has declared himself British and never declared himself as a dual national or Irish at anytime in his life nor have I and thus we are British.

Technically I could claim my Irish Citizenship but I choose not to nor does my dad. I did look into it yes but no thanks.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> You don't. You are, as you were before, confusing applying for a passport with applying for citizenship. Just as you are automatically hold British citizenship you also hold Irish citizenship.


So.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Trouble is there's a whole bunch of muppets out there m.


Awh! You mean 47% of pf members


----------



## havoc

So? having a go at someone else having dual nationality was hypocritical


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> So? having a go at someone else having dual nationality was hypocritical[/QUOTE
> Vast difference! Stockwellcat is living in the uk!


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> So? having a go at someone else having dual nationality was hypocritical


Vast! Mega! Huge! Enormous difference ! Stockwell lives in the uk?which part of that exactly don't you understand


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have always lived in the UK as Northern Ireland has always been part of the UK whilst I have been alive. Yes I do live in the UK (but apart from being born in Northern Ireland I have never lived there), I pay UK taxes and declare myself as British to the taxman as well. My dad lives in the North of England and I live down South for now as I intend in moving up North to be closer to my dad. I am not and never will be a Dual National. I never claimed Irish Citizenship through birth rite, I have no intension of doing this either. So I am British.


----------



## 1290423

dont make excuses for me anyone  my friend-polish-yes shock horror who has been here 50-years plus had a vote too! Of which she was more then entitled! I wont pander to these bloody remain saboteurs no more!


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> dont make excuses for me anyone  my friend-polish-yes shock horror who has been here 50-years plus had a vote too! Of which she was more then entitled! I wont pander to these bloody remain saboteurs no more!


Hope your polish friend voted sensibly and the right way (our way)? 

Did you friend get all this grief we get on here?


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Hope your polish friend voted sensibly and the right way (our way)?
> 
> Did you friend get all this grief we get on here?


She voted remain stockwell, but we will always be best friends and votes don't matter between friends. BuT A younger polish lady who couldnt vote said to me, you englishhh are sooo stupid, we polish would never allow our homeland to become like england  I wonder what on earth she meant?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> She voted remain stockwell, but we will always be best friends and votes don't matter between friends.


Oh well. Each to there own. Friends are friends through thick and thin.

My dad voted remain but saw the light and is all for Brexit now. 


> BuT A younger polish lady who couldnt vote said to me, you englishhh are sooo stupid, we polish would never allow our homeland to become like england  I wonder what on earth she meant?


What did she mean by that comment?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Really lets look at the real facts:51.9% (rounded up 52%) of people who took part in the referendum and didn't spoil there ballot sheets voted leave  Not 37%


So just what % of the population which is affected actually got to vote then. Look it up and try again.

Notice you nor anyone else cannot actually answer or deny the problems caused by simply leaving though. No shock there, people prefer to simply complain about individuals. Note: It's not scaremongering if it's true. Strange how you talk about Ireland yet are not even bothered by the difficulties and repurcussions simply leaving would cause there. Obviously you don't care or are simply ignoring the issues. Why not look at additional complications such as mobile phone use when your daily life is split between both EU and the UK as only one example. How about a hard border when you need to travel constantly between the two.

As for your father perhaps you realise he is in the minority, a large number of leavers have stated they didn't realise they were being lied to and would vote differently. What was the latest poll... a complete reversal of the referendum result. Sorry I forget, leavers don't agree with polls, even though that is what the referendum was.

Continuing with Ireland, you do realise May is dependent upon the DUP for her majority. The DUP are going to push for a soft border as to do otherwise would be political suicide for them.

Interestingly and this isn't to do with brexit, Under the Good Friday Agreement The British and Irish governments are required to be "rigorously" impartial in negotiations between Northern Irish parties. How is the UK government supposed to be neutral when they rely on the DUP I wonder.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> What was the latest poll... a complete reversal of the referendum result.


That was a newspaper poll from a select amount of people, not exactly representing the whole of the UK.

Lets back track. You, yes you told us to ignore newspaper polls. So we do, as they are meaningless and don't represent everyone in the UK.

I didn't get asked to participate in that poll you mention and never knew it was taking place otherwise I would have entered, it wasn't advertised, plus it is from a remainer backing newspaper. The poll and news article is waffle.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So just what % of the population which is affected actually got to vote then. Look it up and try again.


I did look again at the electoral commissions website and 72% of the UK population took part in the referendum. Over 25,000 people spoiled their ballot sheets and 51.9% of those that voted properily voted to leave the European Union from all corners of the UK (which included England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar).
https://www.electoralcommission.org...u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

I even went one step further and it states on the .gov website regarding rules to referendums and general elections 16 and 17 year olds can register to vote but cannot vote in elections or take part in referendums until they are aged 18 or over. I hope you are still paying attention because it also states that you cannot vote in UK referendums if you have been living abroad for 15 years or over. You must also be registered to vote at a UK registered address.

See I do pay attention. Did you?

UK General Elections rules: https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk

UK Referendums rules: https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk/referendums

Age you can register to vote in the UK is mentioned here: http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/elections/register/


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I didn't get asked ro participate in that poll you mention and never knew it was taking place otherwise I would have entered, it wasn't advertised, plus it is from a remainer newspaper. The poll and news article is waffle.


As is the idea that people voted leave meaning a hard brexit. Notice you still avoid discussion about the implications and effects of simply leaving.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> As is the idea that people voted leave meaning a hard brexit. Notice you still avoid discussion about the implications and effects of simply leaving.


I haven't finished picking apart your post so give me a chance.

When I cast my vote on the ballot sheet it said *Leave The European Union*. Nothing else. So why is that so hard for you to undetstand? It was a simple choice to make. It didn't say Leave The European Union With A Tranitional Deal or Negotiate with the EU it said *Leave The European Union.* There are more implications continuing these fruitless discussions with the EU as it is costing the UK tax payer money doing this when we can just leave like what we voted for and not pay another penny to the EU. We voted to leave. The question was simple, the reply was simple, but the whole thing has become one long drama.

*The dictionary definition of leave is to walk away from, to depart from *not remain by some back door method.

There is nothing to discuss with the EU as per the ballot sheet people voted to *"Leave The European Union".* The UK can just walk away if it wants to even EU leaders have said this at some point over the last year and a bit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> How is the UK government supposed to be neutral when they rely on the DUP I wonder.


Oh you are behind aren't you.

TM was told by the treasury that she cannot give the DUP the £1billion they wanted without a vote in Parliment.

The DUP aren't allowed to interfere with England's, Scotland's and Wale's affairs. The DUP are only there to prop up votes the Government wishes to win in Parliment. But this may well be on hold now as they aren't getting there money.

I almost forgot Northern Ireland maybe under direct rule soon from Westminster as Sin Feinn and the DUP are unable to break their deadlock and talks have stalled on forming a power sharing devolved government. That isn't a land grab, that is the rules that where set out for Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein and the DUP have been warned on numerous occassions to sort this out and to form a Power Sharing Government. Theresa May on 13th September 2017 spoke to both parties and said she is encouraging both parties to form a Power Sharing Devolved Government as soon as possible. Theresa May is trying to avoid direct rule but there has been no power-sharing devolved government in Northern Ireland for 9 months now (since it collapsed in January 2017).

See again Goblin I do pay attention.
The problems surrounding the issues in Northern Ireland are nothing to do with Brexit what-so-ever.


----------



## Elles

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/...ain-voters-are-divided-on-several-key-issues/

This survey of just over 3000 people is quite interesting. Complicated, but interesting. It was an attempt to get some idea on what people were, or were not willing to compromise over. By giving them a series of 2 scenarios to choose from and analysing which of each scenario people would choose, the overall idea on what people would feel essential, even if everything else in their given scenario were things they wouldn't agree with. Their priorities and what would make them compromise over them, if anything and what both Leave and Remain voters would likely agree on.

It was based on the assumption that Brexit will happen, not asking whether they would vote leave or remain, but was an attempt to survey what kind of Brexit the majority of people would accept.

The most interesting point imo was that there are many aspects to Brexit that people don't feel that strongly about.


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Awh! You mean 47% of pf members


Nope, just two or three, I can name them if you like


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> it's just a matter of who the figure head is when it comes to pass.


But it's a pity they didn't sort this out earlier. She's totally the wrong person.


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> Goblin's still angry that they refused to extend the vote to toddlers


And ghosts.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Calvine said:


> But it's a pity they didn't sort this out earlier. She's totally the wrong person.


Well there is that. Could be worse though.

Actually you'd think Mr Davis would be making these speeches, it is his job after all. And Mrs May should be getting on with PM'ing rather than Brexiting.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> The remain camp is now of no consequence


48% of the (voting) population is now of no consequence.

Nice.


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> someone with a full set of nuts takes her place


Whom did you have in mind . . ?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I haven't finished picking apart your post so give me a chance.


Not doing a good job are you.. wait you cannot even answer simple questions.



> When I cast my vote on the ballot sheet it said *Leave The European Union*. Nothing else. So why is that so hard for you to undetstand? It was a simple choice to make. It didn't say Leave The European Union With A Tranitional Deal or Negotiate with the EU it said *Leave The European Union.*


Leave the EU means different things to different people. I challenge you to list everything you are leaving. Start with single market, free movement, two gimmies and then start listing things like EURATOM etc. You know all those things you knew you were leaving.. what you cannot or "can't be bothered"? Should be easy as you knew what you were voting for...



stockwellcat. said:


> Oh you are behind aren't you.
> 
> TM was told by the treasury that she cannot give the DUP the £1billion they wanted without a vote in Parliment.
> 
> The DUP aren't allowed to interfere with England's, Scotland's and Wale's affairs. The DUP are only there to prop up votes the Government wishes to win in Parliment. But this may well be on hold now as they aren't getting there money.


Doesn't mean May isn't being influenced in direction by the DUP does it. She had formed an alliance, even if that alliance is not solid or fixed. She will be influenced by until such times as they really go their separate ways as she needs those votes. World does not operate in black and white but in shades of grey.



> The problems surrounding the issues in Northern Ireland are nothing to do with Brexit what-so-ever.


You notice I excluded part from Brexit. Issues of Northern Ireland and it's borders are directly associated with Brexit. As are the repurcussions of having a hard border both to trade and politics.



Elles said:


> This survey of just over 3000 people is quite interesting.


Apparantly leavers state it shows that 70% of people support hard brexit...


----------



## Arnie83

Opinion in here seems to be that May is not doing a good job of delivering the sort of Brexit that the 17 million leave voters all had in mind.

I presume, therefore, that everyone will be calling for a referendum on the negotiated deal so that the People can give their verdict?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Not doing a good job are you.. wait you cannot even answer simple questions.
> 
> Leave the EU means different things to different people. I challenge you to list everything you are leaving. Start with single market, free movement, two gimmies and then start listing things like EURATOM etc. You know all those things you knew you were leaving.. what you cannot or "can't be bothered"? Should be easy as you knew what you were voting for...
> 
> Doesn't mean May isn't being influenced in direction by the DUP does it. She had formed an alliance, even if that alliance is not solid or fixed. She will be influenced by until such times as they really go their separate ways as she needs those votes. World does not operate in black and white but in shades of grey.
> 
> You notice I excluded part from Brexit. Issues of Northern Ireland and it's borders are directly associated with Brexit. As are the repurcussions of having a hard border both to trade and politics.
> 
> Apparantly leavers state it shows that 70% of people support hard brexit...



If you want to grieve because the UK is leaving the EU go ahead.
If you want to go around in circles about the referendum do it in your local pub. You have no influence on here.
We have ready been over all of this numerous times and you still won't accept what people tell you. You are either very forgetful or arrogant beyond belief or in complete denial that the UK is leaving the EU and think you can stop it but that won't happen.

Regarding the 70% that took part in the referendum comment. You are waffling. The 72% that took part in the referendum was those that took part. 51.9% of whom voted leave 48% voted remain and a percentage acted irresponsibly and spoilt there ballot sheet (25,000 people in all) these facts are on the link above to the electoral commissions website. Then we have those that could not be bothered to vote on the day and those that thought it was a joke.

Whoops it seems I telling you some facts that have already been discussed again.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> a large number of leavers have stated they didn't realise they were being lied to and would vote differently.


God, not again! I thought when a thread had nothing new to offer it was put out of its misery, but this one has escaped the bullet for some time.


----------



## Elles

@Goblin Leavers didn't state that. It seems the Express manipulated it to try to show that, either deliberately, or because they don't have a clue about the analysis and what the percentages actually mean. I don't personally need to watch your video link, because I know how the analysis and survey worked. Anyone with half a brain (not the Express) would see that the survey neither concluded nor demonstrated anything of the kind, nor could it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I presume, therefore, that everyone will be calling for a referendum on the negotiated deal so that the People can give their verdict?


No not at all.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> 48% of the (voting) population is now of no consequence.
> 
> Nice.


That wasn't what I said. The remain camp is of no consequence now because we voted well over a year ago, so we are getting on with Brexit as remaining is no longer an option.

Once again a remainers having difficulty grasping what leave means.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> @Goblin Leavers didn't state that. It seems the Express manipulated it to try to show that, either deliberately, or because they don't have a clue about the analysis and what the percentages actually mean. I don't personally need to watch your video link, because I know how the analysis and survey worked. Anyone with half a brain (not the Express) would see that the survey neither concluded nor demonstrated anything of the kind, nor could it.


I believe, according to their prolific and repetitious posts, most of the remainers here read _The Sun _and_ Twitter_ posts.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I presume, therefore, that everyone will be calling for a referendum on the negotiated deal so that the People can give their verdict?


Well that's utter tosh. If the EU is really a democracy then the remaining twenty seven countries would also have to have a referendum on the Brexit deal as it effects them as well. How's that going to work then?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Calvine said:


> Who did you have in mind . . ?


Judi Dench.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> Once again a remainers having difficulty grasping what leave means.


Perhaps the dictionary description of leave will help.

Here it is again remainers:
*To leave means to walk away from, to depart from, to vacate.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> Well that's utter tosh. If the EU is really a democracy then the remaining twenty seven countries would also have to have a referendum on the Brexit deal as it effects them as well. How's that going to work then?


Oh don't it would turn into a neverendum.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> *That wasn't what I said*. The remain camp is of no consequence now because we voted well over a year ago, so we are getting on with Brexit as remaining is no longer an option.
> 
> Once again a remainers having difficulty grasping what leave means.


I quoted, directly, what you said.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Well that's utter tosh. If the EU is really a democracy then the remaining twenty seven countries would also have to have a referendum on the Brexit deal as it effects them as well. How's that going to work then?


So you are now against holding referendums? I wonder why.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I presume, therefore, that everyone will be calling for a referendum on the negotiated deal so that the People can give their verdict?


What would be the benefit?

The current government is likely to head further down the road of concessions and compromise with the Eu. If the majority of the British people want to leave the Eu without compromise and concession and vote against an agreement that means more in than out, where would we go next? Never ending referendums until the public agree on all points? Or just give up and stay in?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I quoted, directly, what you said.


Ok, you didn't and still don't understand.



Arnie83 said:


> So you are now against holding referendums? I wonder why.


Not at all, didn't even say that. In fact if anything I said the opposite.


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> How's that going to work then?


We'd have to pay for the whole lot! So no change there, eh?


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> neverendum.


Love it . . . I vote we change the name of this thread to the Neverendum thread.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> Perhaps the dictionary description of leave will help.
> 
> Here it is again remainers:
> *To leave means to walk away from, to depart from, to vacate.*


Maybe they need some actual examples. So, we are off down the pub later for a spot of lunch. When we leave we will be leaving empty handed and not taking a chair and selection of cutlery with us.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh don't it would turn into a neverendum.


Don't forget; t's only a few months back that Corbyn wanted another election so he could get (hopefully) in.


----------



## Elles

I keep trying to discuss current issues, surveys, talks, analysis, speeches. 

All I'm hearing is that the referendum didn't count, because it was just an opinion poll, but can we have another one. Lol


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> another one


Let's not stop at two, eh?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Elles said:


> I keep trying to discuss current issues, surveys, talks, analysis, speeches.
> 
> All I'm hearing is that the referendum didn't count, because it was just an opinion poll, but can we have another one. Lol


Couldn't make it up


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> What would be the benefit?
> 
> The current government is likely to head further down the road of concessions and compromise with the Eu. If the majority of the British people want to leave the Eu without compromise and concession and vote against an agreement that means more in than out, where would we go next? Never ending referendums until the public agree on all points? Or just give up and stay in?


Well that would depend on how the referendum was presented. A Yes / No to the deal would not suffice. But a range of options, with the winning one decided either by a 'first past the post' or a transferable vote system would require just one ballot. This time a binding one.

Let the People, by then in possession of actual facts, decide.

The benefit would be that the terms of leaving the EU would be determined by the voters, and not by factions within the Tory party, some of whom are clearly in it only for what they, personally, can get out of it.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Well that would depend on how the referendum was presented. A Yes / No to the deal would not suffice. But a range of options, with the winning one decided either by a 'first past the post' or a transferable vote system would require just one ballot. This time a binding one.
> 
> Let the People, by then in possession of actual facts, decide.
> 
> The benefit would be that the terms of leaving the EU would be determined by the voters, and not by factions within the Tory party, some of whom are clearly in it only for what they, personally, can get out of it.


But then you have to let the people of the remaining twenty seven countries have a vote on it as well.

Anyhow there's no need as we voted leave so any beneficial deals are icing on the cake.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Well that would depend on how the referendum was presented. A Yes / No to the deal would not suffice. But a range of options, with the winning one decided either by a 'first past the post' or a transferable vote system would require just one ballot. This time a binding one.
> 
> Let the People, by then in possession of actual facts, decide.
> 
> The benefit would be that the terms of leaving the EU would be determined by the voters, and not by factions within the Tory party, some of whom are clearly in it only for what they, personally, can get out of it.


But if leave win again remainers will want another one and another one and another one. Don't forget a none binding referendum took the Uk into the EC.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Well that would depend on how the referendum was presented. A Yes / No to the deal would not suffice. But a range of options, with the winning one decided either by a 'first past the post' or a transferable vote system would require just one ballot. This time a binding one.
> 
> Let the People, by then in possession of actual facts, decide.
> 
> The benefit would be that the terms of leaving the EU would be determined by the voters, and not by factions within the Tory party, some of whom are clearly in it only for what they, personally, can get out of it.


Just to add on what I said above. Alot of leavers didn't vote on what was presented to them. Alot of leavers voted on what they had already decided along time ago. Alot of remainers have switched sides after Junkers speech.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Well that would depend on how the referendum was presented. A Yes / No to the deal would not suffice. But a range of options, with the winning one decided either by a 'first past the post' or a transferable vote system would require just one ballot. This time a binding one.
> 
> Let the People, by then in possession of actual facts, decide.
> 
> The benefit would be that the terms of leaving the EU would be determined by the voters, and not by factions within the Tory party, some of whom are clearly in it only for what they, personally, can get out of it.


Unfortunately, although I think that could be rather interesting, it would cost too much and take too long and be too complex. It would be like sitting an exam and take weeks, if not months to input the data and come up with a result. At the moment I'd say it isn't logistically possible. Maybe digitally something for the future, for individual issues, as part of PR and coalition governments.

It could lead to a result where people are united in their desire to leave the Eu, but there are enough differing views on how to leave it, that we end up staying in, with only a small minority in favour. To ensure that didn't happen, the first question would have to be in or out, followed by analysis of the results of only those who voted with the majority. If the majority were Remain, leave it there. If Leave, it would be every statisticians nightmare I think.

If there was to be another referendum, imo, it would have to be a simple repeat of the in or out.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> But then you have to let the people of the remaining twenty seven countries have a vote on it as well.


Why on earth would we have to let the rest of the EU vote on what the British people want?


----------



## Honeys mum

DT said:


> I voted out, I want out,


Me to, and nothing will change my mind.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> But if leave win again remainers will want another one and another one and another one. Don't forget a none binding referendum took the Uk into the EC.


Leavers' talk of multiple referendums is a very transparent way of trying to prevent a single, second vote in case the Will of the People has changed and the result is not what they would wish.

But that is irrelevant since I didn't suggest a re-run of the binary Leave / Remain, and I did make it clear that it would be a single, binding referendum.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Just to add on what I said above. Alot of leavers didn't vote on what was presented to them. Alot of leavers voted on what they had already decided along time ago. Alot of remainers have switched sides after Junkers speech.


I am very well aware that a lot of Leavers voted based purely on their primitive instincts and that the consequences outside of their own imaginations were quite irrelevant.

I have seen no evidence of remainers changing sides after Juncker's speech.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> Alot of leavers voted on what they had already decided along time ago


True: some of us don't have TV so didn't see any of the campaigning.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Why on earth would we have to let the rest of the EU vote on what the British people want?


Well it's going to effect the EU when we leave, any deals are going to be working both ways, so a trade deal will effect say Belgium just as much as it will the U.K when they trade with us. Obviously.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I have seen no evidence of remainers changing sides after Juncker's speech.


Well I haven't seen anything to suggest there cause is gaining momentum either. Few thousand people on the streets marching is a far cry from the amount that voted on referendum day.

Regarding holding a binding referendum on what has been negotiated, what happens if the EU pushes the UK to crash out? Oh and then there is a no deal senario still as well at the end of the process in 2019. Still all could happen.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Unfortunately, although I think that could be rather interesting, it would cost too much and take too long and be too complex. It would be like sitting an exam and take weeks, if not months to input the data and come up with a result. At the moment I'd say it isn't logistically possible. Maybe digitally something for the future, for individual issues, as part of PR and coalition governments.
> 
> It could lead to a result where people are united in their desire to leave the Eu, but there are enough differing views on how to leave it, that we end up staying in, with only a small minority in favour. To ensure that didn't happen, the first question would have to be in or out, followed by analysis of the results of only those who voted with the majority. If the majority were Remain, leave it there. If Leave, it would be every statisticians nightmare I think.
> 
> If there was to be another referendum, imo, it would have to be a simple repeat of the in or out.


Cost too much and take too long? What an extraordinary argument! A single ballot where options are rated, say, 1 to 4. Much like any other single transferable vote election.

Transferable votes mean that if 3 of those 4 were versions of Leaving and 1 was to Remain, it would be impossible for Remain to win unless more than 50% of voters chose it above the other three.

A further in / out vote would serve no purpose at all and I would certainly not want one.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Well it's going to effect the EU when we leave, any deals are going to be working both ways, so a trade deal will effect say Belgium just as much as it will the U.K when they trade with us. Obviously.


Ratification of the deal by the 27 is required in any case. How the other countries do that is entirely up to them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Arnie83 Yes I have seen the petition online along the lines of what you have said. But again don't think it will go anywhere, it will get debated in Westminster Hall and forgotten about like the last one was.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I haven't seen anything to suggest there cause is gaining momentum either. Few thousand people on the streets marching is a far cry from the amount that voted on referendum day.


I said nothing about the remain cause gaining momentum. You, though, said that a lot of remainers had switched sides after Juncker's speech. Do you have any basis for making that comment?

And since the proposals contained in that speech would all have been subject to a UK veto, any remainers changing sides because of it would have had to have a very limited knowledge of how the EU works.



stockwellcat. said:


> Regarding holding a binding referendum on what has been negotiated, what happens if the EU pushes the UK to crash out? Oh and then there is a no deal senario still as well at the end of the process in 2019. Still all could happen.


If the EU pushes the UK to crash out, then we crash out, and that might very well happen given the hold that the Brexit fanatics have on the Tory party.

But the negotiations will hopefully end in agreement on the options available, on which the various countries involved can then pass judgement.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Cost too much and take too long? What an extraordinary argument! .


----------



## Elles

@Arnie83 Have you watched the Niall Ferguson 'I was wrong' video? Of course he's just a historian who lives in America, so if Goblin's opinion doesn't count, nor does his. I actually think Goblin's opinion does count. As does anyone's who posts here wherever they live, or were born, or anyone else interested. The German newspapers report quite differently on the disaster they believe Brexit to be for Britain, even in comparison to the pro European journalism of the Guardian apparently.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I am very well aware that a lot of Leavers voted based purely on their primitive instincts and that the consequences outside of their own imaginations were quite irrelevant.
> 
> .


I'm sure the same could be said of Remainers. Just as there were likely thoughtful, informed voters, there would be thoughtless uninformed voters. On both sides.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I'm sure the same could be said of Remainers. Just as there were likely thoughtful, informed voters, there would be thoughtless uninformed voters. On both sides.


I would have to partly disagree there, since the instinct of not trusting or liking foreigners, which clearly influenced many (by no means all) leave voters, is very much a primitive one, while the remain voters are more likely to be more accepting of those from other countries, a view which I consider more progressive.

In fairness, though, I would imagine that a number of remain voters chose their option simply because they thought it was the safe, 'status quo' one, rather than through any particular research or deep understanding of the issues involved. A fear of change is just as rooted in our ancient past as our fear of 'the other'.

As I've said before, it's a big part of the reason why I don't like referendums; facts very much take a back seat, to the point where - as some recent comments on here have almost proudly claimed - they become irrelevant.


----------



## Elles

Although I agree generally, there are Remain voters who voted Remain because they think that if we leave we'll have no influence over it and the Germans will take over. Basically that we're handing Europe to Germany on a plate. They want to stay in to change it. There are also socialists who wanted to stay in to influence it away from capitalism and begin a European wide socialist shift to the left, even the hard left. 

However, I still say Brexit was pretty inevitable. Not just the rise in populism, but (justified) distrust of the Eu, that even many who voted Remain would actually agree on I believe.

The uk is very unlikely to agree to, or fit in with a European federal state, or accept the Euro. If we actually leave, we'll see.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> @Arnie83 Have you watched the Niall Ferguson 'I was wrong' video? Of course he's just a historian who lives in America, so if Goblin's opinion doesn't count, nor does his. I actually think Goblin's opinion does count. As does anyone's who posts here wherever they live, or were born, or anyone else interested. The German newspapers report quite differently on the disaster they believe Brexit to be for Britain, even in comparison to the pro European journalism of the Guardian apparently.


I haven't watched that, no. (Is it very long? )


----------



## Elles

I just did a quick Google to see what Nige is up to after the speech. Nigel Farage is talking of setting up another party apparently.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I haven't watched that, no. (Is it very long? )


It was a panel type discussion, but on YouTube there are snipped versions to show most, but not all, of what just Niall said. The snipped versions are about 10 minutes.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I think many will be wiser following his support for Trump, Le Pen and far right German party the name which I can't recall at the moment.
> 
> He's since shown his true colours and is not exactly the cheerful bloke down the pub many thought he was.


It should be obvious to all now what a sinister creature Farage is. He has stirred up so much hatred with his lies.

Have you ever seen this letter KK? _"we must be aware of false prophets_." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ng-dulwich-college-gas-them-all-a7185336.html
*
Dear Nigel… I wish your teenage fascist views had been dealt with. History could have been very different'*

*Exclusive: Schoolfriend breaks 34-year silence and pens open letter to man who brought about Brexit - and is now President-elect Donald Trump's closest ally in the UK*

Dear Nigel,

I won't give my name - my family isn't even aware I'm writing this and I wish to protect them. But I have a funny feeling you'll know who I am.

At school, at Dulwich College in the late Seventies, we were close friends in our teenage years. I stayed at your house once - your mother did do a fantastic great British breakfast for us.

I remember the way you enchanted people at school, senior teachers and fellow pupils alike. Your English project on fishing enthralled everyone. I remember mine being particularly boring. You were and are a great speaker, for sure.

But I also remember other, darker things about you. There was a time when I used to look back and dismiss much of them as the amusing naughtiness of teenagers as we were, much like our old headmaster David Emms did.

.

I haven't chosen to write before, but I simply have to now. I now wonder if there is a connection between you at 16 and you at 52. I don't believe you have fascist sympathies now, but there are things that tell me your views might not have changed that much despite the many years.

I think there comes a time - however difficult it may be - when enough is enough. I remember those school days in the UK. As you know, teachers were concerned. You'll remember being confronted three years ago by journalists who had a letter from the school teacher Chloe Deakin to Mr Emms. You'll remember she was concerned about "fascist views". Other teachers also had concerns, but none of them would have known you like your own peers, the friends you used to spend time with.

We hear much of "due diligence" in today's financial world, but had the teachers and headmaster of Dulwich investigated the concerns around your appointment as a prefect with your peers - as they would hopefully today in similar circumstances - they might have made a very different decision. They might not have brushed them under the carpet; they might have made you think a little more about your rhetoric; history might be a little different today

For I vividly recall the keen interest you had in two initials of your name written together as a signature and the bigoted symbol that represents from the many doodles over your school books. Nigel Farage, NF, National Front. I remember watching you draw it. Just a laugh, eh, Nigel?

As the son of an immigrant family, your frequent cry of "Send em home" and mention of the name Oswald Mosley didn't mean much to me either until much later when I learnt of the British Fascists.

I remember you spending hours with spit and polish producing what were unquestionably the brightest pair of CCF (Combined Cadet Force) army boots in school. I also remember your snuff tobacco that you kept hidden from unwitting teachers.

But I also remember something altogether more alarming: the songs you chanted at school. In her letter Chloe Deakin mentioned reports of you singing Hitler Youth songs, and when you were confronted by that, you denied it.

But I do remember you singing the song starting with the words "gas them all, gas 'em all, gas them all". I can't forget the words. I can't bring myself to write the rest of it for it is more vile that anything the teachers at Dulwich would ever have been aware of.

I too think that things can be in the past and that people grow up from being naughty schoolchildren. Heaven help us if they didn't, let's face it, but heaven help us if we believe all children do.

As someone wanting the EU to be challenged more robustly, I found myself thinking "Good on Nigel" for the amusement your speeches in the European Parliament gave us. Let's face it, mass migration and its management by the EU has been a consistent mess of mixed messages. You're absolutely right to challenge the EU - it's just people need to see the full picture - before aligning themselves to strangers, however charming their messages are

From being a real fan, I found myself thinking more and more with every appearance of yours on television that we must be aware of false prophets. Notably, the image of a desperate line of refugees, photographed not even in England, showed me that Nigel Farage has perhaps not changed that much.

These people were used as live currency to further your cause to represent Britain being at breaking point from European immigrants - although those people were from outside of Europe. The imagery of a loss of control, hopelessness, of our own politicians not caring for us is the stuff of two world wars. I can hear you say "useless" in the way you used to.

As I have said, the immigration issue surely needs fixing, but you have shamefully used this picture

Seeing your gloating display post-referendum at the European Parliament just rammed home the point: it seemed here we had a bit of the Nigel I knew at school. Yes, you've fought 20 years and no one took you seriously - but let us have some humility. We now learn you will start touring other EU countries, beginning in Athens in September, to encourage them to follow your lead. I'm sure the neo-Nazis in Golden Dawn in Greece will cheer you loudly. The people of Greece, beware.








Oh, for the record, I'm not a blind Remainer. I'm more a 51 per cent reluctant Remainer. Yes, I see the many 21st century challenges with which the EU has failed to deal - immigration and "over-involvement" being the most obvious

Who cannot see that having no common policy to deal with hundreds of thousands of immigrants is going to strain the most robust of institutions to its limits? Who cannot see that criminal elements within those hundreds of thousands are not going to use the cover of desperate people for their own personal gain or distorted beliefs?

But then again, don't some politicians use the cover of people's strife for their own gain or beliefs? Would we as a nation not be alarmed if we were to find out that a Muslim politician or teacher for example had made reference to forced repatriation or joked about beheading all non-Muslims as a teenager at school? Let's hope schools are now taking action on the kind of comments you made at school.

I'm also not a perfect person. I too couldn't help thinking "must we have quite so many people coming to Europe".

But let me indulge you in a story. On a recent trip to Berlin, I found myself in a wonderful park in Spandau on the banks of the Havel. It was a windy day and a chap next to me was meticulously laying out some papers on a bench. But then a gust of wind sent them a few metres, happily straight into my hands.

He was incredibly grateful and strangely offered me some orange juice and a banana. I felt a little embarrassed

And then I realised the papers on the bench were in fact asylum papers and the orange juice and banana in a park in Berlin meant more to him than I could ever imagine. He was a teacher of physics or something similar; it was the only thing I could deduce from his broken English

Perhaps people found no other way to represent their dissatisfaction with Europe and the very many things that need fixing other than embracing you? Is it our fault? No, sorry, there's never an excuse for whipping up some racial animosity as a means to an end.

I think you're a troublemaker. You were at school, you are now. But we need to beware of what's whipped up.

In April 1981, we had the Brixton riots. They happened just up the road from our school. The images of rioting people, many of them from the racial minorities, made it easy to discriminate; many people did back then. The National Front was hugely popular by comparison to today. So, turbulent times back then… but have you not moved on?

Perhaps people found no other way to represent their dissatisfaction with Europe and the very many things that need fixing other than embracing you? Is it our fault? No, sorry, there's never an excuse for whipping up some racial animosity as a means to an end.

I think you're a troublemaker. You were at school, you are now. But we need to beware of what's whipped up.

In April 1981, we had the Brixton riots. They happened just up the road from our school. The images of rioting people, many of them from the racial minorities, made it easy to discriminate; many people did back then. The National Front was hugely popular by comparison to today. So, turbulent times back then… but have you not moved on?

I agree with you there are historic dates that change lives. I stood on the Berlin Wall on that wonderful day in 1989 and have 8mm ciné film I took that never fails to choke me: the images of euphoria, loud noise and waving flags of all colours. Those are real celebrations - and for good reason. I congratulate the German people on their achievement in integrating two by then divergent cultures. It has taken decades rather than the few years Helmut Kohl predicted, but from mutual animosity and envy on both sides, today the country bears little evidence of physical or societal difference.

After the referendum vote, you called for an "independence day" to mark the result. It's an insult those good people in the real world who have died fighting real struggles for independence. I hope the nation sees just as I do that we have allowed ourselves to be enchanted by the charismatic and populist against plainly obvious EU failings without any real thought as to the background and objectives of the people delivering the messages.

Déjà vu, I'm afraid.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> @Goblin Leavers didn't state that.


You want me to post the you tube links as they are easily found.



Dr Pepper said:


> Well that's utter tosh. If the EU is really a democracy then the remaining twenty seven countries would also have to have a referendum on the Brexit deal as it effects them as well. How's that going to work then?


Why when most countries realise referendums are not effective as a form of democracy.

Of course I notice leavers are still avoiding going into detail about a hard brexit and what it involves and it's effect. Why are they so afraid to do so?


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> You want me to post the you tube links as they are easily found.


Then they were also either deliberately manipulating and misrepresenting the results, not bright enough to work out what it was about, or basing their conclusions on what they read in papers like the Mail or the Express.

Are you sure you want a second referendum? I believe the Daily Mail is the most widely read and popular newspaper in the uk. Given what people seem to think of the brain power of Mail (or Sun) readers and how easily they are manipulated by people like Nigel Farage, I'd guess they'd all vote to leave again and a few more who voted to stay in for reasons other than we love the Eu, might actually join them.

Many people far more educated and intelligent than I, have speculated on what leaving the Eu in its entirety may mean. They argue amongst each other, with some believing it's for the greater good and will improve the prospects of those living in the uk and Europe, if not the World, to those who seem to believe it's Armageddon. I'd guess you're not a one for following my links.


----------



## Dr Pepper

_


Goblin said:



Of course I notice leavers are still avoiding going into detail about a hard brexit and what it involves and it's effect. Why are they so afraid to do so?

Click to expand...

Who's afraid? There's a few remainers who seem terrified though.

Hard Brexit means leaving the EU fully, just as it said on the referendum form - "leave".

What does it involve, well that's what being negotiated (supposedly), the practical measures that will need introducing well that's for the politicians and civil servants to sort out, that's why we have them.

What will the effect be? I presume you mean to the UK? Well no one knows, nobody. What I do know though is, be it good bad or indifferent, it will be down to the UK and not some club trying to appease twenty seven countries. Exciting isn't it._


----------



## stockwellcat.

Ok at @Goblin here's a few positives for you about leaving the EU:

The UK will not have to pay anymore bail outs to poor member states of the EU who are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.
The money that is saved from leaving the EU (eg the money not paid to the EU and EU projects the UK does not want to be involved in) can either be spent in the UK, on exclusive UK projects and striking trade deals with other countries around the world that the UK wishes to trade with.
The UK only allows into the UK whom it decides should be allowed in and puts restrictions in place. Free movement for example has been a major issue in the EU member states for a while now and after what Merkel done in the Refugee crisis many countries within the EU have been concerned at the volume of people walking into the continant unchecked. The EU lost control in this instant and have now only started realising that they have a problem as entry points eg Italy, Greece etc cannot accept anymore.
The UK will be able to take back control of its fishing waters after decades of sharing it with EU fisheman and charge for entry into UK fishing grounds.
The UK won't have to be accountable to 27 other countries and will be able to make its own decisions.
These aren't wishful thinking issues I have highlighted.

Regarding citizens rights both here in the UK and the EU. This is being negotiated about at the moment. If you remember it has been said they are close to formalising a deal on this.
Regarding the Northern Irish border with the Republic of Ireland. Again this is being negotiated.
Regarding a final settlement. An offer has been made, £20billion or there abouts and a counter settlement offer made by the EU today of £44billion (€50billion). This is much, much lower than the original €100billion the EU wanted. The EU have stated if the UK accept this offer this week in the negotiations we can move onto trade negotiations.
Pogress is being made. This is how negotiations work. We'll have to now wait and see what happens.

I accept that the German Press maybe reporting what is going on with Brexit differently than UK press and the rest of Europe as they will be affected most when we leave from what I have read somewhere. This is why this deal needs to be right for both the UK and and the remaining 27 EU countries. Crashing out is an option, a no deal scenario is still an option, the UK can still walk away. The ball I do believe is in the EU's court at the moment after May's speech last week.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> _
> Hard Brexit means leaving the EU fully, just as it said on the referendum form - "leave".
> _


This really is an old record, but it would be hard to argue that "Leave" means any more than "Cease to be a member of".

Norway is not a member.

Ergo, anything from EEA membership to never dealing with the EU again was included on the ballot paper, and the Tories have been arguing amongst themselves ever since about the interpretation they want to put on it and might be able to get the EU 27 to agree to.


----------



## 1290423

Just think perhaps I should Apologize to @havoc if I came over aggressive, I would have responded the same to anyone, but just wanted to say this, as I enjoy havocs,threads and content,


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Ok at @Goblin here's a few positives for you about leaving the EU:
> The UK will not have to pay anymore bail outs to poor member states of the EU who are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.


The UK have had an opt-out from such bail-outs for a number of years already.



stockwellcat. said:


> The money that is saved from leaving the EU (eg the money not paid to the EU and EU projects the UK does not want to be involved in) can either be spent in the UK, on exclusive UK projects and striking trade deals with other countries around the world that the UK wishes to trade with.


The money that the UK will lose through Brexit is calculated to be considerably more than would be saved from reduced fees. So we will have less to spend rather than more.



stockwellcat. said:


> The UK only allows into the UK whom it decides should be allowed in and puts restrictions in place. Free movement for example has been a major issue in the EU member states for a while now and after what Merkel done in the Refugee crisis many countries within the EU have been concerned at the volume of people walking into the continant unchecked. The EU lost control in this instant and have now only started realising that they have a problem as entry points eg Italy, Greece etc cannot accept anymore.


You are confusing free movement of EU citizens with refugees, who do not qualify for free movement until - and if - they become EU citizens.



stockwellcat. said:


> The UK will be able to take back control of its fishing waters after decades of sharing it with EU fisheman and charge for entry into UK fishing grounds.


Really? That is subject to negotiation and is far from certain.



stockwellcat. said:


> The UK won't have to be accountable to 27 other countries and will be able to make its own decisions.


We have agreed to share the decision making in some areas, and follow the rules but no more so than every other country.

More to the point, though, have you found yet a decision by the EU that adversely affected your life in a material way? If not then it hardly counts as a benefit of leaving.

I think a lot of people confuse 'benefit' in this particular case with what is actually their personal comfort zone. They don't like foreigners telling them what to do, regardless of the fact that they can't name anything in the past 43 years that has adversely affected them.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> This really is an old record, but it would be hard to argue that "Leave" means any more than "Cease to be a member of".
> 
> Norway is not a member.
> 
> Ergo, anything from EEA membership to never dealing with the EU again was included on the ballot paper, and the Tories have been arguing amongst themselves ever since about the interpretation they want to put on it and might be able to get the EU 27 to agree to.


Nope, it was definitely "leave" on my ballot paper, what was on yours then?

We are leaving hook line and sinker, that is what was voted for. It's also the starting point for the current negotiation. If those negotiations end in no deals (fine by me) then it's fully leave. I don't think any politicians are actually arguing over what leave means, more they are discussing what concessions we should be seeking.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The UK have had an opt-out from such bail-outs for a number of years already.
> 
> The money that the UK will lose through Brexit is calculated to be considerably more than would be saved from reduced fees. So we will have less to spend rather than more.
> 
> You are confusing free movement of EU citizens with refugees, who do not qualify for free movement until - and if - they become EU citizens.
> 
> Really? That is subject to negotiation and is far from certain.
> 
> We have agreed to share the decision making in some areas, and follow the rules but no more so than every other country.
> 
> More to the point, though, have you found yet a decision by the EU that adversely affected your life in a material way? If not then it hardly counts as a benefit of leaving.
> 
> I think a lot of people confuse 'benefit' in this particular case with what is actually their personal comfort zone. They don't like foreigners telling them what to do, regardless of the fact that they can't name anything in the past 43 years that has adversely affected them.


Are you Goblin under a different username?

I have responded. Again you aren't happy with what you have read. Just like Goblin won't be.

I voted leave which means leave. Look it up in the dictionary.

This thread is getting silly as remainers will not accept responses from leavers and think they are better than leavers.

Look get over it. We are on our way out of the door. The sooner the better in my opinion.

I did not confuse refugees with free movement. Be honest they walked all over Europe with no ID and put the EU's free movement program to the test because they certainly had free movement.

Regarding fishing grounds the UK has already started the withdrawal process from this (Withdrawal from the London Fisheries Convention). The EU will not dictate were we can fish in or territorial waters.
*UK withdraws from 53-year-old common fisheries agreement ahead of Brexit*
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-withdraw-london-fisheries-convention-stop-foreign-countries-british-waters-a7819176.html?amp

How dare the remainers talk down at me on here the way they and they wonder why I bite at them.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> How dare the remainers talk down at me on here the way they and they wonder why I bite at them.


It's cus we be all dullards and not clever like wot they is.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Are you sure you want a second referendum?


Actually no I don't want a second referendum. I want politicians to actually inform the public about the ramifications of leaving and actually do their job, that of representing the best interests of their constituents.



Dr Pepper said:


> _
> Who's afraid? There's a few remainers who seem terrified though.
> 
> Hard Brexit means leaving the EU fully, just as it said on the referendum form - "leave".
> 
> What does it involve, well that's what being negotiated (supposedly), the practical measures that will need introducing well that's for the politicians and civil servants to sort out, that's why we have them._


What a joke.. being negotiated.. we should just leave you keep saying yet you are unable to actually state what "just leaving" means for the country.



stockwellcat. said:


> Ok at @Goblin here's a few positives for you about leaving the EU:
> The UK will not have to pay anymore bail outs to poor member states of the EU who are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.


UK opted out of having to pay any more bail outs. Try again. EU bankruptcy.. not according to their accounts, try again. Tell me what is the government paying for UK national debt at present, payments made worse by the referendum result and subsequent exchange rate crash.


> The money that is saved from leaving the EU (eg the money not paid to the EU and EU projects the UK does not want to be involved in) can either be spent in the UK, on exclusive UK projects and striking trade deals with other countries around the world that the UK wishes to trade with.


Other than the fact the UK will be (is already) worse off which means less money.to spend. Being in the EU actually makes more money than we pay out. Trade deals after how long and on worse terms than we currently have as part of the EU. How many trade deals will be in existence when we "just leave" again? Try again.


> The UK only allows into the UK whom it decides should be allowed in and put restrictions in place. Free movement for example has been a major issue in the EU member states for a while now and after what Merkel done in the Refugee crisis many countries within the EU have been concerned at the volume of people walking into the continant unchecked. The EU lost control in this instant and have now only started realising that they have a problem as entry points eg Italy, Greece etc cannot accept anymore.


Migrant crisis is not part of free movement for a start. Controls are already in place for free movement just simply not practiced in the UK. As a group the EU is looking and adapting things like free movement.to fit the current world environment and concerns of it's members. The aims of countries like Germany and France are similar to the UK. They all want immigrants who are a net benefit not a drain. Of course you can say "let in only those we want".. meaningless considering we don't even do that to non-EU immigration sucessfully. Good soundbite though even if ultimately meaningless.


> The UK will be able to take back control of its fishing waters after decades of sharing it with EU fisheman and charge for entry into UK fishing grounds.


Only if the UK fleet is charged for entering other's areas (20% of current UK catch outside UK fishing waters). Where's the investment into the Marine Management Organisation (MMO) going to come from which is currently being reduced? As for banning other vessels this may well be illegal according to international law, some of which goes back to the middle ages. You then have the simple fact UK fishermen don't want it. The Scottish fishermen are dependent upon their access to Norwegian waters for example. Then there's little things like what happens to things like the Habitats Directive, Water Framework directive and marine Strategy Framework directive. Who is going to work out how many fish are going to be allowed to be caught to prevent overfishing?
´With the UK managing their own fisheries, fisheries would likely be worse for stock recovery, worse for following scientific advice, worse for implementing UK initiatives, and worse for the many UK vessels that move anywhere near the EU. Fish are not "british" afterall.



> The UK won't have to be accountable to 27 other countries and will be able to make its own decisions.


UK already makes it's own decisions. Don't believe it.. well a prime example is the ability to leave. Of course instead of the EU UK will now adhere to the WTO rules which we don't have any say in.


> These aren't wishful thinking issues I have highlighted.


ROFL..



> Regarding citizens rights both here in the UK and the EU. This is being negotiated about at the moment. If you remember it has been said they are close to formalising a deal on this.
> Regarding the Northern Irish border with the Republic of Ireland. Again this is being negotiated.
> Regarding a final settlement. An offer has been made, £20billion or there abouts and a counter settlement offer made by the EU today of £44billion (€50billion). This is much, much lower than the original €100billion the EU wanted. The EU have stated if the UK accept this offer this week in the negotiations we can move onto trade negotiations.


Originally, if you remember the figure was 50billion the EU was asking for. EU rights should have been an easy one. Northern Irish Border, UK still has to put forward a workable solution. Zeppelins and drones will not do it. In regards to the bill, originally the number was around 50 billion, then it went up. You miss out that these 3 points are only the start. What about euratom, medical standards authority and the real nitty gritty things the public are not being informed of which affect everyone? You mention the trade deal as though that's part of leaving. It's not, any trade deal will need to be ratified by a completely different process within the EU to any leaving agreement. The two are separate.

Still find it a joke that you state you weren't influenced by the leave campaign but all you do is parrot them.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Actually no I don't want a second referendum. I want politicians to actually inform the public about the ramifications of leaving and actually do their job, that of representing the best interests of their constituents.
> 
> What a joke.. being negotiated.. we should just leave you keep saying yet you are unable to actually state what "just leaving" means for the country.
> 
> UK opted out of having to pay any more bail outs. Try again. EU bankruptcy.. not according to their accounts, try again. Tell me what is the government paying for UK national debt at present, payments made worse by the referendum result and subsequent exchange rate crash.
> 
> Other than the fact the UK will be (is already) worse off which means less money.to spend. Being in the EU actually makes more money than we pay out. Trade deals after how long and on worse terms than we currently have as part of the EU. How many trade deals will be in existence when we "just leave" again? Try again.
> 
> Migrant crisis is not part of free movement for a start. Controls are already in place for free movement just simply not practiced in the UK. As a group the EU is looking and adapting things like free movement.to fit the current world environment and concerns of it's members. The aims of countries like Germany and France are similar to the UK. They all want immigrants who are a net benefit not a drain. Of course you can say "let in only those we want".. meaningless considering we don't even do that to non-EU immigration sucessfully. Good soundbite though even if ultimately meaningless.
> 
> Only if the UK fleet is charged for entering other's areas (20% of current UK catch outside UK fishing waters). Where's the investment into the Marine Management Organisation (MMO) going to come from which is currently being reduced? As for banning other vessels this may well be illegal according to international law, some of which goes back to the middle ages. You then have the simple fact UK fishermen don't want it. The Scottish fishermen are dependent upon their access to Norwegian waters for example. Then there's little things like what happens to things like the Habitats Directive, Water Framework directive and marine Strategy Framework directive. Who is going to work out how many fish are going to be allowed to be caught to prevent overfishing?
> With the UK managing their own fisheries, fisheries would likely be worse for stock recovery, worse for following scientific advice, worse for implementing UK initiatives, and worse for the many UK vessels that move anywhere near the EU. Fish are not "british" afterall.
> 
> UK already makes it's own decisions. Don't believe it.. well a prime example is the ability to leave. Of course instead of the EU UK will now adhere to the WTO rules which we don't have any say in.
> 
> ROFL..
> 
> Originally, if you remember the figure was 50billion the EU was asking for. EU rights should have been an easy one. Northern Irish Border, UK still has to put forward a workable solution. Zeppelins and drones will not do it. In regards to the bill, originally the number was around 50 billion, then it went up. You miss out that these 3 points are only the start. What about euratom, medical standards authority and the real nitty gritty things the public are not being informed of which affect everyone? You mention the trade deal as though that's part of leaving. It's not, any trade deal will need to be ratified by a completely different process within the EU to any leaving agreement. The two are separate.
> 
> I accept that the German Press maybe reporting what is going on with Brexit differently than UK press.


Are you being obtuse on purpose. I've fully explained what "leave" means if there are no deals. What it means if their are deals no one knows yet. If you can't grasp that then it's probably just as well you weren't eligible to vote.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Are you being obtuse on purpose. I've fully explained what "leave" means if there are no deals. What it means if their are deals no one knows yet. If you can't grasp that then it's probably just as well you weren't eligible to vote.


No you've stated leave means leave like May used "brexit is brexit". Meaningless unless you actually know what it means at a detailed level which you are unable to provide. Slogans only go so far. God help the UK if people are happy accepting slogans rather than actually finding out what the reality is.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> No you've stated leave means leave like May used "brexit is brexit". Meaningless unless you actually know what it means at a detailed level which you are unable to provide. Slogans only go so far.


No one knows at this point, there is no answer to your much repeated question. I get you are frightened of the unknown and change. I'm not.

It's a question you need to ask in 2019, or even later.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Actually no I don't want a second referendum. I want politicians to actually inform the public about the ramifications of leaving and actually do their job, that of representing the best interests of their constituents.
> 
> What a joke.. being negotiated.. we should just leave you keep saying yet you are unable to actually state what "just leaving" means for the country.
> 
> UK opted out of having to pay any more bail outs. Try again. EU bankruptcy.. not according to their accounts, try again. Tell me what is the government paying for UK national debt at present, payments made worse by the referendum result and subsequent exchange rate crash.
> 
> Other than the fact the UK will be (is already) worse off which means less money.to spend. Being in the EU actually makes more money than we pay out. Trade deals after how long and on worse terms than we currently have as part of the EU. How many trade deals will be in existence when we "just leave" again? Try again.
> 
> Migrant crisis is not part of free movement for a start. Controls are already in place for free movement just simply not practiced in the UK. As a group the EU is looking and adapting things like free movement.to fit the current world environment and concerns of it's members. The aims of countries like Germany and France are similar to the UK. They all want immigrants who are a net benefit not a drain. Of course you can say "let in only those we want".. meaningless considering we don't even do that to non-EU immigration sucessfully. Good soundbite though even if ultimately meaningless.
> 
> Only if the UK fleet is charged for entering other's areas (20% of current UK catch outside UK fishing waters). Where's the investment into the Marine Management Organisation (MMO) going to come from which is currently being reduced? As for banning other vessels this may well be illegal according to international law, some of which goes back to the middle ages. You then have the simple fact UK fishermen don't want it. The Scottish fishermen are dependent upon their access to Norwegian waters for example. Then there's little things like what happens to things like the Habitats Directive, Water Framework directive and marine Strategy Framework directive. Who is going to work out how many fish are going to be allowed to be caught to prevent overfishing?
> ´With the UK managing their own fisheries, fisheries would likely be worse for stock recovery, worse for following scientific advice, worse for implementing UK initiatives, and worse for the many UK vessels that move anywhere near the EU. Fish are not "british" afterall.
> 
> UK already makes it's own decisions. Don't believe it.. well a prime example is the ability to leave. Of course instead of the EU UK will now adhere to the WTO rules which we don't have any say in.
> 
> ROFL..
> 
> Originally, if you remember the figure was 50billion the EU was asking for. EU rights should have been an easy one. Northern Irish Border, UK still has to put forward a workable solution. Zeppelins and drones will not do it. In regards to the bill, originally the number was around 50 billion, then it went up. You miss out that these 3 points are only the start. What about euratom, medical standards authority and the real nitty gritty things the public are not being informed of which affect everyone? You mention the trade deal as though that's part of leaving. It's not, any trade deal will need to be ratified by a completely different process within the EU to any leaving agreement. The two are separate.
> 
> Still find it a joke that you state you weren't influenced by the leave campaign but all you do is parrot them.












je ne suis pas dérangé

Ich bin nicht belästigt

You have your opinion I have mine.
The UK people voted Leave and so did I. End of.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> It's cus we be all dullards and not clever like wot they is.



I am no dullard.
I voted sensibly on referendum day.
I voted the way i said I would.
They may think they are clever but that my friend is a matter of opinion (twitter, facebook, and so called experts off these sites and youtube does not make someone clever when they are using other peoples opinions because they have none of there own).


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Nope, it was definitely "leave" on my ballot paper, what was on yours then?


It was "Leave the European Union". So long as we end up not being a member of the EU, we will have fulfilled the result of the referendum, because we will have left.

I'm sorry, but I can't see how any further interpretation can be put on that, unless it's a personal one.


----------



## Calvine

Lord! You lot still here? Well just to remind @MiffyMoo, @stockwellcat., @Dr Pepper and any other members of the exclusive 'Brexit Boozers' Club' that it's just about 'that time of day'. So, off to feed the cats and then send the butler down to the wine cellar for the Chardonnay (not necessarily in that order tho'). Prost! Zum Wohl! (Note how I post in German to show that I am not xenophobic.)


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Are you Goblin under a different username?
> 
> I have responded. Again you aren't happy with what you have read. Just like Goblin won't be.
> 
> I voted leave which means leave. Look it up in ths dictionary.
> 
> This thread is getting silly as remainers will not accept responses from leavers and think they are better than leavers.
> 
> Look get over it. We are on our way out of the door. The sooner the better in my opinion.
> 
> I did not confuse refugees with free movement. Be honest they walked all over Europe with no ID and put the EU's free movement program to the test because they certainly had free movement.
> 
> Regarding fishing grounds the UK has already started the withdrawal process from this (Withdrawal from the London Fisheries Convention). The EU will not dictate were we can fish in or territorial waters.
> *UK withdraws from 53-year-old common fisheries agreement ahead of Brexit*
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-withdraw-london-fisheries-convention-stop-foreign-countries-british-waters-a7819176.html?amp
> 
> How dare the remainers talk down at me on here the way they and they wonder why I bite at them.


I like facts and therefore tend to point out misinterpretations. But I apologise for doing so in your case and leave you with them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> Lord! You lot still here? Well just to remind @MiffyMoo, @stockwellcat., @Dr Pepper and any other members of the exclusive 'Brexit Boozers' Club' that it's just about 'that time of day'. So, off to feed the cats and then send the butler down to the wine cellar for the Chardonnay (not necessarily in that order tho'). Prost! Zum Wohl! (Note how I post in German to show that I am not xenophobic.)


I'm off to the local watering hole for some refreshments. 

Notice one of my previous posts I posted in French and German. The translation of the French and German words was "I'm not bothered".


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I like facts and therefore tend to point out misinterpretations. But I apologise for doing so in your case and leave you with them.


Where did your so called facts come from?

Facebook?
Twitter?
The Sun Newspaper?
The Guardian?
The Telegraph?
The Express
The Mirror?
Youtube Videos?
Economists (who are forever wrong)?
People claiming they are experts online but aren't really in real life?

I'll leave you to it.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> It was "Leave the European Union". So long as we end up not being a member of the EU, we will have fulfilled the result of the referendum, because we will have left.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I can't see how any further interpretation can be put on that, unless it's a personal one.


Thank the lord, you do get it. It's what we've (leavers) have been saying all along. It took you a little while but well done. Can you please try and explain it to @Goblin, ta.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Thank the lord, you do get it. It's what we've (leavers) have been saying all along. It took you a little while but well done. Can you please try and explain it to @Goblin, ta.


And since you can be a member of the single market but not a member of the EU - as is Norway - the Leave vote does not necessitate withdrawal from the single market.

I'm glad we've got that sorted.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Where did your so called facts come from?
> 
> Facebook?
> Twitter?
> The Sun Newspaper?
> The Guardian?
> The Telegraph?
> The Express
> The Mirror?
> Youtube Videos?
> Economists (who are forever wrong)?
> People claiming they are experts online but aren't really in real life?
> 
> I'll leave you to it.


My facts come from a variety of sources. I find it best to check from several in order to ascertain what is true. A number of the ones you mention are unlikely to make the cut.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> My facts come from a variety of sources. I find it best to check from several in order to ascertain what is true. A number of the ones you mention are unlikely to make the cut.


I get my facts from a very reliable source to. I didn't need to check my facts as I fully trust in my source. I didn't need to rely on any of the sources I quoted either. My source has been very reliable throughout my life.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> And since you can be a member of the single market but not a member of the EU - as is Norway - the Leave vote does not necessitate withdrawal from the single market.
> 
> I'm glad we've got that sorted.


It absolutely does in the first instance. At this very moment in time we are leaving the EU and that includes the single market. What happens tomorrow, next week or anytime up until March 2019 remains to be seen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> It absolutely does in the first instance. At this very moment in time we are leaving the EU and that includes the single market. What happens tomorrow, next week or anytime up until March 2019 remains to be seen.


I agree with you there.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> Ok at @Goblin here's a few positives for you about leaving the EU:
> 
> The UK will not have to pay anymore bail outs to poor member states of the EU who are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.
> The money that is saved from leaving the EU (eg the money not paid to the EU and EU projects the UK does not want to be involved in) can either be spent in the UK, on exclusive UK projects and striking trade deals with other countries around the world that the UK wishes to trade with.
> The UK only allows into the UK whom it decides should be allowed in and puts restrictions in place. Free movement for example has been a major issue in the EU member states for a while now and after what Merkel done in the Refugee crisis many countries within the EU have been concerned at the volume of people walking into the continant unchecked. The EU lost control in this instant and have now only started realising that they have a problem as entry points eg Italy, Greece etc cannot accept anymore.
> The UK will be able to take back control of its fishing waters after decades of sharing it with EU fisheman and charge for entry into UK fishing grounds.
> The UK won't have to be accountable to 27 other countries and will be able to make its own decisions.
> These aren't wishful thinking issues I have highlighted.
> 
> Regarding citizens rights both here in the UK and the EU. This is being negotiated about at the moment. If you remember it has been said they are close to formalising a deal on this.
> Regarding the Northern Irish border with the Republic of Ireland. Again this is being negotiated.
> Regarding a final settlement. An offer has been made, £20billion or there abouts and a counter settlement offer made by the EU today of £44billion (€50billion). This is much, much lower than the original €100billion the EU wanted. The EU have stated if the UK accept this offer this week in the negotiations we can move onto trade negotiations.
> Progress is being made. This is how negotiations work. We'll have to now wait and see what happens.
> 
> I accept that the German Press maybe reporting what is going on with Brexit differently than UK press and the rest of Europe as they will be affected most when we leave from what I have read somewhere. This is why this deal needs to be right for both the UK and and the remaining 27 EU countries. Crashing out is an option, a no deal scenario is still an option, the UK can still walk away. The ball I do believe is in the EU's court at the moment after May's speech last week.


Nice post I like it. 

Live transport and the view of the Eu that animals are commodities has affected me personally, having campaigned fruitlessly for an end to it and seen the misery for myself. I have renewed hope that Britain can lead the way with a ban. (Well, after New Zealand). Of course my thoughts on it have been dismissed as unimportant, a mere trifle in the greater scheme of things, a passing thought so fleeting it barely registered. Yet to me it is a perfect example and indication of how the Eu operates. People are labour of course, also commodities.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-dogs-go-heaven/201212/valuing-animals-and-valuing-people


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Nice post I like it.


Thank you for liking my post @Elles, but Goblin and Arnie83 still felt it was appropiate to pull the post to peices. I give up trying with these remainers who feel the need to continously attempt to belittle leave voters on here, which isn't working by the way.


> Live transport and the view of the Eu that animals are commodities has affected me personally, having campaigned fruitlessly for an end to it and seen the misery for myself. I have renewed hope that Britain can lead the way with a ban. (Well, after New Zealand). Of course my thoughts on it have been dismissed as unimportant, a mere trifle in the greater scheme of things, a passing thought so fleeting it barely registered.


I to hope that the UK, when it leaves the EU, leads the way on banning this next to New Zealand of course.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> I agree with you there.


Thank you. Just a few remainers playing silly games and trying to back track on what they previously said. Don't know why we bother really, after all we won and they lost


----------



## Elles

Dr Pepper said:


> they lost


They didn't lose. They too will benefit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> Thank you. Just a few remainers playing silly games and trying to back track on what they previously said. Don't know why we bother really, after all we won and they lost


So true. It does get a bit repetitive listening to the few remainers that play silly games thinking they know it all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

When the UK leaves the EU I really hope that we become leaders in animal welfare and veterinary medician and become an attractive place for leading veterinarians to come to.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> When the UK leaves the EU I really hope that we become leaders in animal welfare and veterinary medician and become an attractive place for leading veterinarians to come to.


Not really related to Brexit but if this government's approach to animal welfare has anything to go by it's like trusting them with the NHS.

Look at the attacks some have made towards the RSPCA, the badger culling and the longing for the return of that "great British tradition" Foxhunting which I'm sure thanks to the repeal bill they'll resurrect without needing a parliamentary debate and vote on the matter.

Yes, much work is needed to improve animal welfare within the EU but I'm confident they'll achieve this while this government turn the clock back.

As for an "attractive place for veterinary surgeons" they better hurry up training British people. Why would they want to come here with Visas and fingerprinting when they have absolute freedom to live and work everywhere else in Europe including Norway, Switzerland and Iceland which aren't even in the EU? I know I wouldn't.


----------



## Elles

This government appear to be a temporary blip. At least Mrs May looks like she might be.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Not really related to Brexit but if this government's approach to animal welfare has anything to go by it's like trusting them with the NHS.
> 
> Look at the attacks some have made towards the RSPCA, the badger culling and the longing for the return of that "great British tradition" Foxhunting which I'm sure thanks to the repeal bill they'll resurrect without needing a parliamentary debate and vote on the matter.
> 
> Yes, much work is needed to improve animal welfare within the EU but I'm confident they'll achieve this while this government turn the clock back.
> 
> As for an "attractive place for veterinary surgeons" they better hurry up training British people. Why would they want to come here with Visas and fingerprinting when they have absolute freedom to live and work everywhere else in Europe including Norway, Switzerland and Iceland which aren't even in the EU? I know I wouldn't.


You're telling half cocked stories. The RSPCA are in crisis because the one that was in charge of the RSPCA quit leaving them in crisis as a charity. The Government do not fund the RSPCA as they are a charity so this has frankly got nothing to do with the Government as the RSPCA is a charitable organisation that does not get funding from the tax payer via the government

Again jumping the gun. The vote to overturn the fox hunting ban was dropped. I won't comment on badger culling as I do not read up on it.

So apart from badger culling what exactly have the Government done wrong to get such an ear bashing that wasn't called for?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes, much work is needed to improve animal welfare within the EU.


The UK is strides ahead of most animal welfare issues in the EU. Try again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> As for an "attractive place for veterinary surgeons" they better hurry up training British people. Why would they want to come here with Visas and fingerprinting when they have absolute freedom to live and work everywhere else in Europe including Norway, Switzerland and Iceland which aren't even in the EU? I know I wouldn't.


And why can't the UK be an attractive place for veterinarians to come? Jumping the gun again you are.

Visas are used in all countries outside of the EU. You normally have choice of two a 90 day tourist visa and a business visa. You have to apply for a residents card if you stay longer than 90 days.

Not all vets come from the EU you know. There are top veterinary medical hospitals in America for instance way ahead of EU veterinarians.


----------



## Elles

90% of abattoir vets are none uk, Eu nationals.


----------



## Arnie83

@stockwellcat. @Dr Pepper

I'm sorry for upsetting you, but I have no intention to 'belittle' anybody, I don't 'play silly games', and I certainly don't 'think _ know it all'.

All I do is dispute what I see are incorrect statements, and I will continue to do so. And I will certainly not resort to dismissive ad hominem comments._


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK is strides ahead of most animal welfare issues in the EU. Try again.


The EU sets minimum standards, there is nothing to stop member states setting higher standards. Do you honestly think the tories care about animals SW?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> When the UK leaves the EU I really hope that we become leaders in animal welfare and veterinary medician and become an attractive place for leading veterinarians to come to.


Hoping doesn't make things happen. Brexit is going to be a disaster for the veterinary profession. We NEED EU nationals & without regulatory continuity on veterinary medicine, we'll get them years after the EU. Animals will suffer because of brexit - & for what gain?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The EU sets minimum standards, there is nothing to member states setting higher standards. Do you honestly think the tories care about animals SW?


Not all EU countries have high standards of animal welfare. Our animal welfare in the UK is one of the highest and we are looked yp to by other countries.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> @stockwellcat. @Dr Pepper
> 
> I'm sorry for upsetting you, but I have no intention to 'belittle' anybody, I don't 'play silly games', and I certainly don't 'think _ know it all'.
> 
> All I do is dispute what I see are incorrect statements, and I will continue to do so. And I will certainly not resort to dismissive ad hominem comments._


I apologise to you @Arnie83. I do respect your posts and enjoy reading them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Dr Pepper I see France and Germany are wanting to scupper Brexit (on the News this morning). This would explain why our British/German poster Goblin is so hostile on here towards us.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Not all EU countries have high standards of animal welfare. Our animal welfare in the UK is one of the highest and we are looked yp to by other countries.


I didn't say they did SWC. I said the EU sets minimum standards. Animal welfare has been on the slide since the tories came to power.

*Compassion*‏Verified [email protected]*ciwf* Jul 24

The UK's animals risk losing their legal status as sentient beings. We cannot let this happen. Take action >> http://bit.ly/2ucEWuR


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Hoping doesn't make things happen. Brexit is going to be a disaster for the veterinary profession. We NEED EU nationals & without regulatory continuity on veterinary medicine, we'll get them years after the EU. Animals will suffer because of brexit - & for what gain?


So why look at the EU if they don't want to work here? No one has thrown any EU veterinarians out of the country, they have volunatrily left. The US and Canada has veterinarians years ahead of the EU with more advanced treatments for pets and farm animals.

We do not know at the moment how things will be when we leave the EU @noushka05. EU nationals will still be able to come to the UK and vice versa. TM is hoping to get a tranaitional deal which is against what I voted for so nothing will change until 2021 except the UK will leave the EU on the 29th March 2019.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I didn't say they did SWC. I said the EU sets minimum standards. Animal welfare has been on the slide since the tories came to power.
> 
> *Compassion*‏Verified [email protected]*ciwf* Jul 24
> 
> The UK's animals risk losing their legal status as sentient beings. We cannot let this happen. Take action >> http://bit.ly/2ucEWuR


The UK is one of the leader's in animal standards @noushka05 in the EU. Why should this change? Why should we drop our standards? How about if we improve our standards so they are better than the EU's?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> So why look at the EU if they don't wantnto work here? No one has thrown any EU veterinarians out of the country, they have volunatrily left. The US and Canada has veterinarians years ahead of the EU with more advanced treatments for pets and farm animals.
> 
> We do not know at the moment how things will be when we leave the EU @noushka05. EU nationals will still be abke to come to the UK and vice versa. TM is hoping to get a tranaitional deal whixh is against what I voted for so nothing will change until 2021 except the UK will leave the EU on the 29th March 2019.


Why don't you try looking objectively at what the BVA are saying on the matter & what actual EU vets are saying?. Neither you nor I are better informed than they are so we should listen to their concerns if we care about the welfare of animals in this country - this could even affect our own pets one day.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK is one of the leader's in animal standards @noushka05 in the EU. Why should this change? Why should we drop our standards? How about if we improve our standards so they are better than the EU's?


Already things are changing. See my above posts. What if animals lose their legal status as sentient beings? Have you seen how bad livestock are treated in the USA? Brexit risks being a race to the bottom for many things - animal welfare included.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Already things are changing. See my above posts. What if animals lose their legal status as sentient beings? Have you seen how bad livestock are treated in the USA? Brexit risks being a race to the bottom for many things - animal welfare included.


We could go on all day about this but today I am busy doing indepth research.

We won't race to the bottom. Panicking about something thay hasn't and may not happen isn't going to help (Not Brexit, the race to the bottom I mean).


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> I do respect your posts and enjoy reading them.


I have posted the same before and second that. Sensible and well thought out; never patronising or aggressive.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> I have posted the same before and second that. Sensible and well thought out; never patronising or aggressive.


Something we both agree on (is this a first?) - people on _both sides _of the debate could take a leaf out of Arnies book.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> (is this a first?)


It surely is!


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> No one knows at this point, there is no answer to your much repeated question. I get you are frightened of the unknown and change. I'm not.


There you have it. Well done, you couldn't have made it clearer. You didn't know what you were voting for. You do not know what you are actually pushing for now when stating we should just leave abandoning the negotiations.

When it comes down to it, the public needs information, not spin from the government. They are not providing it. What we need is a government who represents the well being of the country and population. They need to listen to people like experts who do actually know.



stockwellcat. said:


> Not all EU countries have high standards of animal welfare. Our animal welfare in the UK is one of the highest and we are looked yp to by other countries.


According to who? I guess it depends if you are selective in which areas you look at. UK has slipped considerably from the time where the UK earned the label "a nation of animal lovers". As pet lovers why is it that the UK doesn't have no kill shelters whereas other EU countries do for example? It's not government responsible, it the society at fault there. In addition, there's a reason almost no animal welfare groups backed leaving with many supporting remain.
http://animalwelfareandtrade.com/why-remaining-in-the-eu-is-better-for-britain---and-for-animal-welfare-too
https://www.ciwf.org.uk/philip-lymbery/blog/2016/06/what-will-brexit-mean-for-animal-welfare

RSPCA were neutral with the possibility of being able to ban live trade as the only real positive. Note only the possibility. Would likely need the government to fight for it against a WTO complaint at a time when trade realtions are "messy".



stockwellcat. said:


> @Dr Pepper I see France and Germany are wanting to scupper Brexit (on the News this morning). This would explain why our British/German poster Goblin is so hostile on here towards us.


Ooh look the scapegoating is being pushed again. What a shock. As soon as brexit isn't going as people want it's always the EU's fault (following the process agreed for example) or when not the entire EU's fault it will be France and Germany playing on people's prejudice. By the way I'm not British/German.. I am British.


----------



## Elles

When we are out, Britain will no longer be able to blame the Eu and the Eu will no longer be able to blame Britain. They can both do their own thing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Ooh look the scapegoating is being pushed again. What a shock. As soon as brexit isn't going as people want it's always the EU's fault (following the process agreed for example) or when not the entire EU's fault it will be France and Germany playing on people's prejudice.


Nothing to do with that.

It was mentioned on the news this morning that Germany and France are going to try an scupper Brexit to try and force the UK to remain within the EU for years or decades after Brexit by tying the UK to large payments to the EU and by making it incredibly difficult during the negotiations for the UK to leave. They are hoping the UK will cave in/give up and remain.

No scapegoating there.

This will forced the UK in the corner and left with no other choice but to hard brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Nothing to do with that.
> 
> It was mentioned on the news this morning that Germany and France are going to try an scupper Brexit to try and force the UK to remain within the EU for years or decades after Brexit by tying the UK to large payments to the EU and by making it incredibly difficult during the negotiations for the UK to leave. They are hoping the UK will cave in/give up and remain.
> 
> No scapegoating there.
> 
> This will forced the UK in the corner and left with no other choice but to hard brexit.


I haven't heard anything about that - do you have a link to a news site at all?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> There you have it. Well done, you couldn't have made it clearer. You didn't know what you were voting for. You do not know what you are actually pushing for now when stating we should just leave abandoning the negotiations.
> 
> When it comes down to it, the public needs information, not spin from the government. They are not providing it. What we need is a government who represents the well being of the country and population. They need to listen to people like experts who do actually know.


I agree, I couldn't have put it any clearer yet you still struggle with the concept that we voted to fully leave the EU and everything tied to it and are very happy with that.

Now what the end result is we don't know, bar as I said earlier be it good, bad or indifferent it will be down the UK and no one else, just what we voted for.

If you (well obviously not you personally) voted remain then you didn't know what you were voting for as what does the future of the EU hold? Mr Juncker has already said he want's a tighter knit EU, what is that exactly? You don't know. What's ten years down the line for the EU? You don't know. What I do know is last thing each and every leave voter would have wanted is a tighter knit EU, so we have exactly what we voted for.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> They didn't lose. They too will benefit.


Benefit from what exactly?


----------



## Arnie83

One more try, @Dr Pepper . Could you point out where my logic below is faulty?

Is Norway is a member of the EU? No.

When the UK fulfills the mandate to "Leave the European Union" will it be a member of the EU? No.

Is Norway a member of the Single Market? Yes.

Therefore, once the UK has left the EU will it still be possible for it to be a member of the Single Market? Yes.

Did, therefore, the mandate to Leave the EU necessarily exclude membership of the Single Market? No.​
Saying that we won't really have left if we stay as members of some EU bodies is a perfectly reasonable opinion, but it is only an opinion, as the above shows. It isn't a fact.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I haven't heard anything about that - do you have a link to a news site at all?


This by any chance? Via the BBC News site.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Nothing to do with that.
> 
> It was mentioned on the news this morning that Germany and France are going to try an scupper Brexit to try and force the UK to remain within the EU for years or decades after Brexit by tying the UK to large payments to the EU and by making it incredibly difficult during the negotiations for the UK to leave. They are hoping the UK will cave in/give up and remain.


So just how are France and Germany going to do that? In case you missed it Germany has had other things on it's mind at the moment, namely it's own election. Brexit wasn't even part of the debate. It's not an issue at all for germany. So it's not real news instead redirecting the failures of brexit on others instead of where it belongs, a government who haven't a plan or a clue and media who is pushing the storyline playing on dislike of Germany and France. In otherwords, scapegoating.


----------



## Elles

Jeremy has now said that he doesn't want to stay in the current single market as that will interfere with his Nationalisation plans. So it needs to be either an adjusted version of the single market, or not at all. I don't think the Eu will play with him. Of course labour would have to win an election and the rest of labour would have to agree with him for us to find out. Seems unlikely at the moment, but you never know with what's going on with the conservatives.

Germany and France have their own potentially serious problems at the moment. I expect the Eu doesn't feature very prominently in the minds of Macron and Merkel at the moment.


----------



## samuelsmiles

I've always liked Dan Hannan's calm responses to some tough questions. If you've got 20 minutes to watch.....


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> This by any chance?


Thank you.

It looks interesting, once you take out the rabid Express hyperbole, where Macron and Merkel are going to "Unleash a Plot" to sabotage Brexit. Sigh.

What this 'plot' boils down to, in the body of the article is this:

"The Macron plan could mean Britain being offered a form of associate EU membership that includes some flexibility to introduce curbs on free movement for EU citizens to come to the UK."​
Isn't that exactly what a lot of Leave voters wanted? Especially now they know we're not going to get the £350 million a week for the NHS and that Turkey aren't joining the EU, etc.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> One more try, @Dr Pepper . Could you point out where my logic below is faulty?
> 
> Is Norway is a member of the EU? No.
> 
> When the UK fulfills the mandate to "Leave the European Union" will it be a member of the EU? No.
> 
> Is Norway a member of the Single Market? Yes.
> 
> Therefore, once the UK has left the EU will it still be possible for it to be a member of the Single Market? Yes.
> 
> Did, therefore, the mandate to Leave the EU necessarily exclude membership of the Single Market? No.​
> Saying that we won't really have left if we stay as members of some EU bodies is a perfectly reasonable opinion, but it is only an opinion, as the above shows. It isn't a fact.


Who said we wouldn't really have left if we negotiate a deal to access the single market? That's a trade deal isn't it? We may negotiate a deal and we may not. We'll no doubt have a trade deal with the USA, doesn't mean we are suddenly part of the States though! Who do you think thinks this?

Yes the mandate to leave the EU did absolutely include leaving the single market. The default starting point for negotiations is we are out of everything, as it said on the ballot paper "leave". Not hard to understand.

So your logic is flawed because if no deal is agreeded on the single market by March 2019 then we are out if it, just as we voted for. Now that doesn't mean many leave voters wouldn't welcome a trade deal with the EU, but it wasn't a issue of significant importance to persuade us to vote remain.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Who said we wouldn't really have left if we negotiate a deal to access the single market? That's a trade deal isn't it? We may negotiate a deal and we may not. We'll no doubt have a trade deal with the USA, doesn't mean we are suddenly part of the States though! Who do you think thinks this?
> 
> Yes the mandate to leave the EU did absolutely include leaving the single market. The default starting point for negotiations is we are out of everything, as it said on the ballot paper "leave". Not hard to understand.
> 
> So your logic is flawed because if no deal is agreeded on the single market by March 2019 then we are out if it, just as we voted for. Now that doesn't mean many leave voters wouldn't welcome a trade deal with the EU, but it wasn't a issue of significant importance to persuade us to vote remain.


Not 'access to', but 'membership of'. They're very different. But again, which of the following statements is incorrect please.



Arnie83 said:


> Is Norway is a member of the EU? No.
> 
> When the UK fulfills the mandate to "Leave the European Union" will it be a member of the EU? No.
> 
> Is Norway a member of the Single Market? Yes.
> 
> Therefore, once the UK has left the EU will it still be possible for it to be a member of the Single Market? Yes.
> 
> Did, therefore, the mandate to Leave the EU necessarily exclude membership of the Single Market? No.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Not 'access to', but 'membership of'. They're very different. But again, which of the following statements is incorrect please.


I've never said they are untrue. I've never said we couldn't negotiate access (or membership off if you like) to the single market, whether that'll come to pass remains to be seen.

Your just being pedantic now, or a right dullard


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> When we are out, Britain will no longer be able to blame the Eu and the Eu will no longer be able to blame Britain. They can both do their own thing.


History - and current events - would indicate otherwise, unfortunately. Prejudices do not die overnight, and are easily manipulated anyway. 1984 and Animal Farm are good reads on that front (read them both as teenager), and whilst they are fictional explorations of how societies can be easily manipulated, there are plenty of real world examples too.

Just a couple that spring to mind are that of a Soviet communist (a former Young Communist of the Year and leader of secret police brutality units) who ended up being hunted by is former comrades and managed to escape to the US. He said that although he was out of Russia, Russia was not out of him, and for a long while he struggled to believe the most basic of truths - such as that normal, everyday people lived in the apartments and houses and drove the cars he saw in the cities. He had always been told US city life was reserved for the elite, and that most US citizens lived in worse squalour than the poorest Russian citizen.

Or how about North Korea? Thanks to the regime they live under, many genuinely believe that every power cut, every shortage, every bad thing that happens in their lives is a direct result of American interference. Power cut? The Americans must have sabotaged the local power station again. Food shortage? The Americans must have poisoned the crops. And so on.

Basically, it's all deflection. If you can persuade people to focus their blame on an external 'enemy', it's easy to distract them away from closer-to-home truths and internal scrutiny (particularly if you add fear into the mix, and/or insist that asking questions or voicing opinons is something only traitors to the will of the people would do). Based on current observations and general history, I strongly suspect our politicians can and will try blame the EU for as many less-than-positive situations and outcomes as they can for as long as they can - and failing that, then the default fallback position will likely be 'this is what you voted for, so you shouldn't be complaining.'

So as I see it, the biggest challenge the UK faces isn't EU politicians insisting the rules are followed, but trying to ensure our own politicians don't use this situation to strengthen their own power base and level of control at the expense of the general population.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> I've never said they are untrue. I've never said we couldn't negotiate access (or membership off if you like) to the single market, whether that'll come to pass remains to be seen.
> 
> Your just be pedantic now, or a right dullard


Pedantry is sometimes important; like recognising the difference between access to the single market and membership of it. Access to the single market just allows countries to trade with the EU; even North Korea has access to the single market. Membership of the single market allows countries to trade within one market, with no barriers, no tariffs, no quotas; it is, in effect and by design, the same as conducting trade within one's own national boundaries.

While the former is subject to individual trade agreements, the latter brings much greater economic benefits, and is available not only to members of the EU, but also to some non-members, such as Norway. We can leave the EU, respecting the outcome of the referendum, but still retain membership of the single market. The Tories have chosen not to do so; but be in no doubt that it _is_ a choice, and not a requirement of the leave vote.


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> History - and current events - would indicate otherwise, unfortunately. Prejudices do not die overnight, and are easily manipulated anyway. 1984 and Animal Farm are good reads on that front (read them both as teenager), and whilst they are fictional explorations of how societies can be easily manipulated, there are plenty of real world examples too.
> 
> Just a couple that spring to mind are that of a Soviet communist (a former Young Communist of the Year and leader of secret police brutality units) who ended up being hunted by is former comrades and managed to escape to the US. He said that although he was out of Russia, Russia was not out of him, and for a long while he struggled to believe the most basic of truths - such as that normal, everyday people lived in the apartments and houses and drove the cars he saw in the cities. He had always been told US city life was reserved for the elite, and that most US citizens lived in worse squalour than the poorest Russian citizen.
> 
> Or how about North Korea? Thanks to the regime they live under, many genuinely believe that every power cut, every shortage, every bad thing that happens in their lives is a direct result of American interference. Power cut? The Americans must have sabotaged the local power station again. Food shortage? The Americans must have poisoned the crops. And so on.
> 
> Basically, it's all deflection. If you can persuade people to focus their blame on an external 'enemy', it's easy to distract them away from closer-to-home truths and internal scrutiny (particularly if you add fear into the mix, and/or insist that asking questions or voicing opinons is something only traitors to the will of the people would do). Based on current observations and general history, I strongly suspect our politicians can and will try blame the EU for as many less-than-positive situations and outcomes as they can for as long as they can - and failing that, then the default fallback position will likely be 'this is what you voted for, so you shouldn't be complaining.'
> 
> So as I see it, the biggest challenge the UK faces isn't EU politicians insisting the rules are followed, but trying to ensure our own politicians don't use this situation to strengthen their own power base and level of control at the expense of the general population.


If you haven't already, you might find The True Believer by Eric Hoffer to be an informative read.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> This by any chance? Via the BBC News site.
> View attachment 326554
> View attachment 326555


Oh thag must have been what I caught the end of this morning on TV.

Worth ignoring then.


----------



## stockwellcat.

What leave means:

Go away from
Abandon
Depart from permenantly
Vacate
Exit from permenantly
Withdraw from
Pull out of
To quit from
To decamp from
To clear off
To no longer be part of
Leave does not mean:

To stay in
To remain in parts of
To remain completely

It must be really hard to understand what the word leave means for some.

I voted to *Leave The European Union* so that means Leave all parts of it.

When we put Leave together with the words European Union it means this:

1. Go away from the European Union
2. Abandon the European Union
3. Depart permenantly from the European Union
4. Vacate from the European Union
5. Exit from the European Union permenantly
6. Withdraw from the European Union
7. Pull out of the European Union
8. To quit from the European Union
9. To decamp from the European Union
10. To clear off from the European Union
11. To no longer be part of the European Union.

Nowhere on my ballot sheet last year did it mention anything about negotiating with the European Union, Remaining in the European Union's Customs Union or Remaining in the Single Market.

My ballot sheet was clear as day as the choice I picked was *Leave The European Union.*


----------



## Goblin

samuelsmiles said:


> I've always liked Dan Hannan's calm responses to some tough questions. If you've got 20 minutes to watch.....


Saw enough to see complete dismissal of reality of open skies arrangement and damage it will cause unless it is negotiated before leaving. Reminds me of https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/daniel-hannan-afraid-hard-brexit/ and 


> His faction has always been marked by its cockiness and intolerance of criticism. Unfortunately for us, his faction is now driving this country to an unknown destination without knowledge of or thought for the consequences


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Nowhere on my ballot sheet last year did it mention anything about negotiating with the European Union, Remaining in the European Union's Customs Union or Remaining in the Single Market.


Nowhere did it say anything about not staying in them either. To do so it would have needed to specify what the EU was and allow people to make an informed choice.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Nowhere did it say anything about not staying in them either. To do so it would have needed to specify what the EU was and allow people to make an informed choice.


But *leave* is such a hard word to understand for you isn't it. It does not mean staying in anything.

The ballot sheet contained a straight forward question with two straight forward answers.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> What leave means:
> 
> Go away from
> Abandon
> Depart from permenantly
> Vacate
> Exit from permenantly
> Withdraw from
> Pull out of
> To quit from
> To decamp from
> To clear off
> To no longer be part of
> Leave does not mean:
> 
> To stay in
> To remain in parts of
> To remain completely
> 
> It must be really hard to understand what the word leave means for some.
> 
> I voted to *Leave The European Union* so that means Leave all parts of it.
> 
> When we put Leave together with the words European Union it means this:
> 
> 1. Go away from the European Union
> 2. Abandon the European Union
> 3. Depart from permenantly from the European Union
> 4. Vacate from the European Union
> 5. Exit from the European Union permenantly
> 6. Withdraw from the European Union
> 7. Pull out of the European Union
> 8. To quit from the European Union
> 9. To decamp from the European Union
> 10. To clear off from the European Union
> 11. To no longer be part of the European Union.
> 
> Nowhere on my ballot sheet last year did it mention anything about negotiating with the European Union, Remaining in the European Union's Customs Union or Remaining in the Single Market.
> 
> My ballot sheet was clear as day as the choice I picked was *Leave The European Union.*


12. Cease to be a member of.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> But *leave* is such a hard word to understand for you isn't it. It does not mean staying in anything.


Yet whereas one person has admitted they don't know, you still can't list in full what leave was actually leaving. You still cannot show THE list used at the ballot box. Many people for example voted to leave only freedom of movement. You can only state personal opinion, you do not speak for every leave voter. Interestingly, if only 2% of those who voted didn't vote for hard brexit as you want it, the referendum result would change. So I wonder.. what is the figure if we could find out?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Easy.
This is what the ballot sheet I cast my vote on looked like:










See it was nice and simple.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Easy.
> This what the ballot sheet I cast my vote on looked like:
> 
> View attachment 326566
> 
> 
> See it was nice and simple.


Indeed - it only mentions membership of the single specific entity that is the European Union. It mentions nothing specifically about membership of any other European organisations or entities.

Therefore - IF we are still following simple binary logic - everything else that you can be a member of separately and independently of being a member of the European Union itself is up for discussion and does not inherently go against the spirit or intent of the ballot paper.

Now, perhaps it could have been worded "Leave the European Union and any and all associated organisations" in order to avoid any ambiguity. But it wasn't. Knowing politicians, I suspect this was deliberate, as it leaves them with myriad options they can still claim are 'the will of the people' whilst blaming anything that 'the people' complain about on the EU. Given that the main people they have to appease throughout this process are Big Business, not The Man In The Street, that's a nice get-out-of-the-court-of-public-opinion-free card to have.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Easy.
> This is what the ballot sheet I cast my vote on looked like:


Yep that's it. Can't see where it say leave the single market or euratom whatever. Can you. Now you can speak for yourself but your 52% is wiped out if only a small % of those who voted leave disagree with you. Then again we know that some disagree with you by previous linked articles from leave campaigners.


----------



## Elles

The point in article 50 and 2 years and now a further transition period, is to sort out a few things. Other countries manage outside the Eu. It will take time to unravel, for the Eu as well as the uk, if we continue down this route.

I don't know what all the fuss is about. There are negotiators, offices and departments who are meant to be expert and deal with the necessary technicalities and legalities.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yep that's it. Can't see where it say leave the single market or euratom whatever. Can you. Now you can speak for yourself but your 52% is wiped out if only a small % of those who voted leave disagree with you. Then again we know that some disagree with you by previous linked articles from leave campaigners.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> The point in article 50 and 2 years and now a further transition period, is to sort out a few things. Other countries manage outside the Eu. It will take time to unravel, for the Eu as well as the uk, if we continue down this route.
> 
> I don't know what all the fuss is about. *There are negotiators, offices and departments who are meant to be expert* and deal with the necessary technicalities and legalities.


No, no, no, no. no - we want it all, we want it now, and we do NOT want experts to be involved - they are just troublemakers!   

[/emulation mode]

Yup, and hopefully they can get us some good deals. The enthusiasm of some to drop everything and run is somewhat endearing, true, but it does smack rather of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face...


----------



## FeelTheBern

The EU is like that curry you had last night: better out than in.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Meanwhile using Brexit and vulnerable Britain to concede Gibraltar








While you debating we are under serious threat.
Joint sovereignty with aggressive PP on doorstep.
Have you seen what is happening in Catalonia? Much, much bigger and we are tiny.

UK does not look strong and stable like when MT defended Falklands ( and Gibraltar - coup was planned already).

Weak and wonky Britain.... This how we look to the world.
And you claim that Remainers are not patriotic?

Since when making your country weaker and unstable is a sign of patriotism?

Merkel, Juncker are not forever. You do not drop out of school because you do not like some teachers.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> Easy.
> This is what the ballot sheet I cast my vote on looked like:
> 
> View attachment 326566
> 
> 
> See it was nice and simple.


What you really need to do is read it in conjunction with this (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ean-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf) which clearly states we will be "losing full access to the EU's single market".

That's "access" not "membership" as I presume membership of the EU by default gives you full access to the single market so additional individual membership is not required. Bit like my Netflix subscription gives me access to UHD content and by default also HD and SD, I don't have three seperate subscriptions. So going back to the Norway example, it's like they pay Netflix for SD but miss out on HD and UHD whereas EU members pay the all inclusive UHD subscription.

Now I understand there's one part of this that's going to be a stumbling block for some. So seeing as "lose" is similar to "leave" if you don't understand it's meaning please ask @stockwellcat


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Dr Pepper


> Now I understand there's one part of this that's going to be a stumbling block for some. So seeing as "lose" is similar to "leave" if you don't understand it's meaning please ask @stockwellcat


I'd be very happy to post what the dictionary says and provide examples like I did above for those not understanding what the word leave means. Thank you for example number 12 @Arnie83 most helpful


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ean-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf.


A Remain booklet from during *David Cameron's and George Osborne's Project Fear Campaign*.
Hmmm mine got put in recycling or did I use it for toilet paper, I can't quite remember.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> A Remain booklet from during *David Cameron's and George Osborne's Project Fear Campaign*.
> Hmmm mine got put in recycling or did I use it for toilet paper, I can't quite remember.


Oh! Do you mean the one sent out to all households?
I returned to sender.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Oh! Do you mean the one sent out to all households?
> I returned to sender.


That's the one.
They spent an aweful lot on it as well. Can't remember how much the end figure was.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> @Dr Pepper
> 
> I'd be very happy to post what the dictionary says and provide examples like I did above for those not understanding what the word leave means. Thank you for example number 12 @Arnie83 most helpful


Not all that helpful when you take into account the fact that "ceasing to be a member" of the EU is not a barrier to being a member of the single market. See 'Norway'.

In any case, the lack of agreement on here is largely irrelevant, since many politicians are still pursing single market membership as part of a soft Brexit while respecting the referendum result. They clearly don't see it as having been settled by the vote, and it will remain subject to the negotiations.


----------



## Arnie83

From an Indy chat with Paul Krugman:

"It's essentially zero chance that [Brexit] will be beneficial on the trade front. I don't think there's any plausible case that Brexit is a good thing for the British economy as a whole."

Mr Krugman won the Nobel Prize in 2008 for his theoretical breakthroughs on the analysis of international trade patterns.​
I think this is one expert we should listen to, although of course damaging the economy is not something that concerns some leavers.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> A Remain booklet from during *David Cameron's and George Osborne's Project Fear Campaign*.
> Hmmm mine got put in recycling or did I use it for toilet paper, I can't quite remember.


Oh God yea I agree. I was just trying to resolve the whole issue regarding the single market being seperate to our EU membership. It isn't as it's part of our EU membership, unlike Norway who are not part of the EU.

As for your last point, and giving it serious consideration, it would have been to slippery to use as toilet paper (think Izal). Seems Mr Cameron wasn't a total tool as he thought of that!


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Not all that helpful when you take into account the fact that "ceasing to be a member" of the EU is not a barrier to being a member of the single market.


Nobody ever said it did.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> That's the one.
> They spent an aweful lot on it as well. Can't remember how much the end figure was.


Almost nine million I believe, they there was all the return postage they would have to pay, we'll never know what that cost


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Almost nine million I believe, they there was all the return postage they would have to pay, we'll never know what that cost


It probably cost them a couple of million votes to those that got sick to the back teeth with "project fear" and government propaganda.


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Almost nine million I believe, they there was all the return postage they would have to pay, we'll never know what that cost


I'm confused; you're concerned about the 9 million cost of the pamphlet thing, but aren't worried about the multi-billion pound annual cost to the economy of Brexit?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I'm confused; you're concerned about the 9 million cost of the pamphlet thing, but aren't worried about the multi-billion pound annual cost to the economy of Brexit?


Yeah that's right. Spot on


----------



## Elles

Paul Krugman

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/05/opinion/european-union-france-election.html

"Those of us who watched European institutions deal with the debt crisis that began in Greece and spread across much of Europe were shocked at the combination of callousness and arrogance that prevailed throughout.

Even though Brussels and Berlin were wrong again and again about the economics - even though the austerity they imposed was every bit as economically disastrous as critics warned - they continued to act as if they knew all the answers, that any suffering along the way was, in effect, necessary punishment for past sins.

Politically, Eurocrats got away with this behavior because small nations were easy to bully, too terrified of being cut off from euro financing to stand up to unreasonable demands. But Europe's elite will be making a terrible mistake if it believes it can behave the same way to bigger players.

Indeed, there are already intimations of disaster in the negotiations now taking place between the European Union and Britain.

I wish Britons hadn't voted for Brexit, which will make Europe weaker and their own country poorer. But E.U. officials are sounding more and more like a jilted spouse determined to extract maximum damages in a divorce settlement. And this is just plain insane. Like it or not, Europe will have to live with post-Brexit Britain, and Greece-style bullying just isn't going to work on a nation as big, rich and proud as the U.K."

You listening Mrs May?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I'm confused; you're concerned about the 9 million cost of the pamphlet thing, but aren't worried about the multi-billion pound annual cost to the economy of Brexit?


As of today YOU, I and NO else knows the future cost, or gain, to the UK economy. It's simply not even up for guess work at this stage of negotiations and what may or may not happen to the value of the pound.

Speculation is all well and good, but ultimately meaningless.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh well TM's speech did go down well with Barnier. The UK and EU negotiation teams are at logger heads with each other more than ever according to the comics (I mean media):

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-talks-brussels-davis-davis-a7966616.html?amp


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> I'm confused; you're concerned about the 9 million cost of the pamphlet thing, but aren't worried about the multi-billion pound annual cost to the economy of Brexit?


Erm! Where did I say I was concerned?
I was merely confirming to cost!
Nevertheless money down the drain!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I'm confused; you're concerned about the 9 million cost of the pamphlet thing, but aren't worried about the multi-billion pound annual cost to the economy of Brexit?


Of course people are concerned about the economy.

We was just discussing the pamphlet because of the link @Dr Pepper put up to defend what he was talking about. The phamphlet was a huge waste of taxpayers money and so was David Cameron's and George Osborne's Project Fear Campaign.


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> Of course people are concerned about the economy.
> 
> We was just discussing the pamphlet because of the link @Dr Pepper put up to defend what he was talking about. The phamphlet was a huge waste of taxpayers money and so was David Cameron's and George Osborne's Project Fear Campaign.


And there is absolutely no question of a doubt it was a waste of our money by the remain camp and project fear. The referendum results show that.

Now if Mr Cameron and the the remain camp had actually researched, rather than assumed they knew (a remainers trait that), what the voting public actual thought they could have lead us into a much more amicable Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Of course people are concerned about the economy.
> 
> We was just discussing the pamphlet because of the link @Dr Pepper put up to defend what he was talking about. The phamphlet was a huge waste of taxpayers money and so was David Cameron's and George Osborne's Project Fear Campaign.


I'm the first to agree the pamphlet was a waste of money, then so was the referendum and the subsequent unnecessary snap general election.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> As of today YOU, I and NO else knows the future cost, or gain, to the UK economy. It's simply not even up for guess work at this stage of negotiations and what may or may not happen to the value of the pound.
> 
> Speculation is all well and good, but ultimately meaningless.


Yeah, that Paul Krugman; what a blowhard.

Governments, and individuals if they've got any sense, make and implement plans based on their informed predictions of the future. Ignore such informed 'speculation' and you will soon come a cropper. Prevention is better than cure.


----------



## Elles

Paul Krugman predicts that Britain may be slightly worse off economically from Brexit, but also says that we need a weak pound for Brexit to be success. I'm warming to him. He insults the Eu more than I do and says we actually need a weak pound. Which is nice for us and our exports.


----------



## Arnie83

DT said:


> Erm! Where did I say I was concerned?
> I was merely confirming to cost!
> Nevertheless money down the drain!


Sorry; you seemed to be suggesting that throwing away 9 million was a bad thing. But I haven't noticed Leavers' concerns about the several billions that will follow it after Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Paul Krugman predicts that Britain may be slightly worse off economically from Brexit, but also says that we need a weak pound for Brexit to be success. I'm warming to him. He insults the Eu more than I do and says we actually need a weak pound. Which is nice for us and our exports.


Couldn't agree with him more. A weak pound is our only hope of getting the balance of payments into any sort of shape after we leave. And the EU has a lot to answer for, and much to do differently in the future.


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> Yeah, that Paul Krugman; what a blowhard.
> 
> Governments, and individuals if they've got any sense, make and implement plans based on their informed predictions of the future. Ignore such informed 'speculation' and you will soon come a cropper. Prevention is better than cure.


Yep! Ive ignored the experts many times and come up trumps, only yesterday actually 3.45 at kempton.

Prevention better then the cure this aint the flu, the is serious, and the only cure is OUT


----------



## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry; you seemed to be suggesting that throwing away 9 million was a bad thing. But I haven't noticed Leavers' concerns about the several billions that will follow it after Brexit.


Could4nt give a,monkies. Out at any cost! It will all backfire in the end anyway!


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Yeah, that Paul Krugman; what a blowhard.
> 
> Governments, and individuals if they've got any sense, make and implement plans based on their informed predictions of the future. Ignore such informed 'speculation' and you will soon come a cropper. Prevention is better than cure.


Actually they don't, particularly businesses. Any successful business will tell you they succeed by "going with the current climate" and following trends. The best of them set trends that are not based on speculation and "get lucky".

Those that follow speculation are the like of economists who miss the world being brought to its knees with the like of the 2008 crash. I'll ignore you predictions if your don't mind based on past experiences.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> As of today YOU, I and NO else knows the future cost, or gain, to the UK economy. It's simply not even up for guess work at this stage of negotiations and what may or may not happen to the value of the pound.
> 
> Speculation is all well and good, but ultimately meaningless.


Awh, but you forgot-they have the experts on their side, shame those experts were nowhere to be seem prior to brexit!


----------



## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Awh, but you forgot-they have the experts on their side, shame those experts were nowhere to be seem prior to brexit!


Or flagging up the disaster that was the 2008 crash. Says it all really.

It's not just economists that don't have a clue though. The world didn't end (again) on the the 23rd September.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> That's "access" not "membership" as I presume membership of the EU by default gives you full access to the single market so additional individual membership is not required.


Bit like the EEA arrangement. Not membership of the EU (out of the EU) but as the leaflet states no say in the EU, pay the EU and free movement. You are going to have to try harder.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Bit like the EEA arrangement. Not membership of the EU (out of the EU) but as the leaflet states no say in the EU, pay the EU and free movement. You are going to have to try harder.


Isn't the EEA all to do with the European Single Market, which in turn......

You are going to have to try harder.


----------



## Elles

It's like the Eu want the alimony sorted out before they've agreed who keeps the house and looks after the kids. The uk have agreed to meet their legal obligations of course and to not leave them in the lurch so why are they still refusing to go further?

If there is a legal liability, then they know they'll get that as a minimum, so why the delay and why would payment need to be agreed first anyway? What has how much Britain will pay the Eu when we leave got to do with anything else? Would someone like to enlighten me?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> It's like the Eu want the alimony sorted out before they've agreed who keeps the house and looks after the kids. The uk have agreed to meet their legal obligations of course and to not leave them in the lurch so why are they still refusing to go further?
> 
> If there is a legal liability, then they know they'll get that as a minimum, so why the delay and why would payment need to be agreed first anyway? What has how much Britain will pay the Eu when we leave got to do with anything else? Would someone like to enlighten me?


They are trying to do what is known as "screw the UK over" by forcing us to pay for something before it is due. Yes we have financial obligations but we are still in the EU until 29th March 2019. Surely we should settle up at the end of our time in the EU. We are not obliged to pay for anything up front before it is due. I get the impression they are also going to try it on with the UK as well by adding more costs to the bill before the 29th March 2019 even if we agree to pay.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> It's like the Eu want the alimony sorted out before they've agreed who keeps the house and looks after the kids. The uk have agreed to meet their legal obligations of course and to not leave them in the lurch so why are they still refusing to go further?
> 
> If there is a legal liability, then they know they'll get that as a minimum, so why the delay and why would payment need to be agreed first anyway? What has how much Britain will pay the Eu when we leave got to do with anything else? Would someone like to enlighten me?


Sorry, quoted you in error x


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> They are trying to do what is known as "screw the UK over" by forcing us to pay for something before it is due. Yes we have financial obligations but we are still in the EU until 29th March 2019. Surely we should settle up at the end of our time in the EU. We are not obliged to pay for anything up front before it is due. I get the impression they are also going to try it on with the UK as well by adding more costs to the bill before the 29th March 2019 even if we agree to pay.


What about the refunds?when are they going to be agreed?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> What about the refunds?when are they going to be agreed?


What about what they owe us (for using our assests etc)?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> What about the refunds?when are they going to be agreed?


I can see us either reaching a no deal on 29th March 2019 or crashing out before hand. I will ear mark this post I have just made for when either happens.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> What about what they owe us (for using our assests etc)?


If teressa may was just half the woman maggie were she would have told the EU were to go months ago!


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> I can see us either reaching a no deal on 29th March 2019 or crashing out. I will ear mark this post I have just made for when either happens.


Sadly, the longer we leave it the harder it will hit!


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Sadly, the longer we leave it the harder it will hit!


That is so true.
We should have left completely last year.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Isn't the EEA all to do with the European Single Market, which in turn......
> 
> You are going to have to try harder.


My My.. EU is actually paying membership and actually being part of a democratic process. The single market and having access in whatever form <> being part of the EU. Norway is not a member of the EU. It has never joined. So by adopting a Norway model arrangement we would have fulfilled the referendum binary question. Logic and fact.



DT said:


> If teressa may was just half the woman maggie were she would have told the EU were to go months ago!


So tell us as you are pushing for this. What would be the immediate effects of such action? Notice you all avoid starting to list the implications.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> So tell us as you are pushing for this. What would be the immediate effects of such action? Notice you all avoid starting to list the implications.


Satisfaction
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So tell us as you are pushing for this. What would be the immediate effects of such action? Notice you all avoid starting to list the implications.


Gratification


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Gratification


Lol, you mean relief


----------



## KittenKong

DT said:


> If teressa may was just half the woman maggie were she would have told the EU were to go months ago!


What makes you think Mrs Thatcher would support exiting the EU? She is no longer around to ask her for her opinion.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Lol, you mean *relief*


Lol you're right. That as well :Hilarious

I was trying to be light hearted. Did it work?


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> What makes you think Mrs Thatcher would support exiting the EU? She is no longer around to ask her for her opinion.....


Didnt claim she would have! Did I? just saying if Theresa were half the woman maggie were we would have been out by now! Maggie didn't play games! Merkel and her muppets would have been no match for her!


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> My My.. EU is actually paying membership and actually being part of a democratic process. The single market and having access in whatever form <> being part of the EU. Norway is not a member of the EU. It has never joined. So by adopting a Norway model arrangement we would have fulfilled the referendum binary question. Logic and fact.
> 
> So tell us as you are pushing for this. What would be the immediate effects of such action? Notice you all avoid starting to list the implications.


Ok. You don't understand that single market is part of our EU membership (reference my Netflix if it helps you). Yes we all understand we can rejoin the Single Market if a deal is struck.

Yes we might well end up being a "Norway" equivalent, never said otherwise.

Leaving the EU isn't all about the single market, understand that and you'll be on the way to understanding what the UK voted
for.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Lol you're right. That as well :Hilarious
> 
> I was trying to be light hearted. Did it work?


You disguised it well


----------



## Elles

Maggie eventually said that she didn't agree with the way the Eu was going and it was a mistake to be part of it. However if she'd been still in charge and was still alive and compos mentis, she would probably also be in charge of the Eu by now and we'd have had no need to leave it.


----------



## Elles

I'd rather we had Angela Merkel and with all her refugees, than TM. The Germans don't know how lucky they are.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> I'd rather we had Angela Merkel and with all her refugees, than TM. The Germans don't know how lucky they are.


You've lost me now


----------



## 1290423

Awh, the penny just dropped elles, well I think it did x


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> What makes you think Mrs Thatcher would support exiting the EU? She is no longer around to ask her for her opinion.....


Elvis told me.


----------



## Elles

DT said:


> You've lost me now


Angela Merkel is stronger, more determined and better liked and trusted in Germany, than our Theresa is here. I bet if Merkel was in charge of the uk instead of Germany, she'd sort out the Eu and take no nonsense from them. Can't we have a decent leader, or at least a good looking one? I'm fed up with TM now. :Hilarious


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I'm confused; you're concerned about the 9 million cost of the pamphlet thing, but aren't worried about the multi-billion pound annual cost to the economy of Brexit?


I was, at the time, very concerned about the 9 million cost of the pamphlet thing. I am not in the least worried about the cost to the economy of Brexit. I don't understand how that can be confusing though.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Not 'access to', but 'membership of'. They're very different. But again, which of the following statements is incorrect please.


The fifth one, as you very well know. It is not only incorrect; it doesn't even follow logically.


----------



## FeelTheBern

Elles said:


> Can't we have a decent leader, or at least a good looking one?


Can you name someone who fits both criteria? I know I can.


----------



## FeelTheBern

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes we might well end up being a "Norway" equivalent


That wouldn't be so bad. They're the richest nation in the world-they drive Teslas and live in mansions in the mountains.


----------



## Dr Pepper

FeelTheBern said:


> That wouldn't be so bad. They're the richest nation in the world-they drive Teslas and live in mansions in the mountains.


Norfolk are going to struggle with the mountains bit, but apart from that all sounds good.


----------



## Calvine

Satori said:


> I was, at the time, very concerned about the 9 million cost of the pamphlet thing.


Concerned about £9 million? A damned sight more than that. £9 million meant that the whole pamphlet (booklet) scheme cost 34p per household and I believe they targeted 27 million households. _The postage alone cost more than that_; so if you add the cost of designing, printing, masses of advertising etc I think you can at least double the £9 million . . . even treble it. 
I sent mine back to a _freepost _address_._


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It's like the Eu want the alimony sorted out before they've agreed who keeps the house and looks after the kids. The uk have agreed to meet their legal obligations of course and to not leave them in the lurch so why are they still refusing to go further?
> 
> If there is a legal liability, then they know they'll get that as a minimum, so why the delay and why would payment need to be agreed first anyway? What has how much Britain will pay the Eu when we leave got to do with anything else? Would someone like to enlighten me?


We have said that we will pay what is legally due, and also indicated that there were moral responsibilities that we would meet. What we haven't done is detail exactly what we think all those actually are. May pretty much said that we would continue with our membership fee payments until 2021, but the implication was that there was a dependency on our continuing to enjoy the benefits of the single market and customs union. What she didn't say was whether we would seek concessions of freedom of movement during the transition period, so even those payments were left in the air a bit, and subject to negotiations.

There are other liabilities in terms of long term payments to past and present UK EU employees - e.g. Neil Kinnock's pension, and long term projects that the EU28 have agreed to fund - that have to be agreed.

There are also quite large amounts tied up in loans which the EU, including the UK, have made to third countries. You may have heard the "Brexit Bill" figure of €100 bn bandied about? Well a lot of that is tied up in the loans. It would only cost us money if the countries concerned defaulted on the loans, so the chances are that we wouldn't lost the money anyway. But part of the negotiation is about whether we would continue to guarantee those loans, or duck out and leave the rest of the EU with a higher liability.

Someone said that the EU was trying to screw us and make us pay money before it is due. The latter is not the case. The fees will be paid just as they are now, twice a year (not weekly, incidentally). The pensions (etc) I guess will be subject to negotiation; do we pay them when they are due on an ongoing basis or give the EU 27 a lump sum and pass the liabilities and administration to them? Dunno. The loan guarantees have already been made, and no money is lost unless they are not repaid. When they are repaid, we will actually get some money back.

As for being screwed, I would imagine that the EU are trying to get as much money as they can, and I imagine we would try to pay as little as possible. Who screws who probably depends on the negotiating competence of the teams, but I doubt if the contest is between the saintly UK and the evil EU.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Arnie83

There have been a number of other posts quoting me since yesterday, but I hope you will excuse me from replying. They would only become an "Oh yes it is!" / "Oh no it isn't!" pantomime exchange which I don't think is very informative or influential.

(At least I know whoever it was who called me boring will be quite pleased.)


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> I was, at the time, very concerned about the 9 million cost of the pamphlet thing. I am not in the least worried about the cost to the economy of Brexit. I don't understand how that can be confusing though.


I agree entirely the leaflets were a waste of money, as like I said before the EU referendum and subsequent snap general election.

I guess you think the £1bn+ bribe to gain the DUP's support after the snap General Election gamble was good value?

Bit selfish of you not to consider what you may call the "little people" for their support for leave because papers like "The Sun", "Mail" and "Express" told them to. If it wasn't for them you wouldn't have Brexit and a Tory government in power.

You probably couldn't care less about me. Well fine and why should you seeing I am the exact opposite in being a hard solid pro EU supporter. I will remain so if you forgive the pun.

But those people who voted for Brexit will be the first to suffer if the economy collapses.

I'll have no sympathy for such people personally speaking, but maybe you should?


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> But those people who voted for Brexit will be the first to suffer if the economy collapses.
> 
> I'll have no sympathy for such people personally speaking, but maybe you should?


I go away for a couple of days and the thread has moved so far I can't keep up

We won't need your sympathy because once we are free from the corrupt EU we will be able to stand up on our own to feet


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> I go away for a couple of days and the thread has moved so far I can't keep up
> 
> We won't need your sympathy because once we are free from the corrupt EU we will be able to stand up on our own to feet
> It may be hard to start with but we leavers are braver than you remainers and believe in ourselves and our country


Could you please provide the evidence that makes you call the EU 'corrupt'? Thanks.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> Angela Merkel is stronger, more determined and better liked and trusted in Germany, than our Theresa is here. I bet if Merkel was in charge of the uk instead of Germany, she'd sort out the Eu and take no nonsense from them. Can't we have a decent leader, or at least a good looking one? I'm fed up with TM now. :Hilarious


Yes, realized what you meant after posting, but like maggie, angela getting a little too sure of herself and ruffling to many feathers. I agree she is stronger then TM but wouldn't have lasted one round with maggie.


----------



## Bisbow

Arnie83 said:


> Could you please provide the evidence that makes you call the EU 'corrupt'? Thanks.


If you can't see it for yourself no evidence I produce will convince you, any one with half a working brain cell can see they are only out for what they can get for themselves
That's why they are trying to hold us to ransome


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> We won't need your sympathy because once we are free from the corrupt EU


Yah, let's leave the "corrupt EU" and concentrate on the corrupt UK giving those on top even more power and removing methods of holding then to account. Let's not try to make things better in europe while making things worse in the UK. That's so brave.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Bisbow said:


> That's why they are trying to hold us to ransome


.....and to hold someone to ransom you have to be in possession of something they want. And seeing as it's been made very clear we don't want anything from the EU they will ultimately fail. Not sure why the EU think they are in the driving seat even.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> .....and to hold someone to ransom you have to be in possession of something they want. And seeing as it's been made very clear we don't want anything from the EU they will ultimately fail. Not sure why the EU think they are in the driving seat even.


Simples.. we need them more than they need us. The opposite of what people like Gove were stating. There's a reason countries around the world are forming trading blocks.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> There's a reason countries around the world are forming trading blocks.


Indeed, now if you can get back on topic and point me in the direction of countries banding together to be controlled by a central government then you may have a point.


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> If you can't see it for yourself no evidence I produce will convince you, any one with half a working brain cell can see they are only out for what they can get for themselves
> That's why they are trying to hold us to ransome


Ah, the old "if you can't see it you must be stupid" proof.

I actually make judgements almost entirely on evidence, and I have none to show that the EU is corrupt. So could you indulge me and point me at some, please? I assure you that I will be convinced should the evidence actually stack up.


----------



## 1290423

Bisbow said:


> If you can't see it for yourself no evidence I produce will convince you, any one with half a working brain cell can see they are only out for what they can get for themselves
> That's why they are trying to hold us to ransome


Oher, shurrup don't get giving em ideas if they get together and share them there brain cells we're stuffed


----------



## Bisbow

Arnie83 said:


> Ah, the old "if you can't see it you must be stupid" proof.
> 
> I actually make judgements almost entirely on evidence, and I have none to show that the EU is corrupt. So could you indulge me and point me at some, please? I assure you that I will be convinced should the evidence actually stack up.


Give google a good read and you will find plenty

I am not good at posting links as I usually mess them up but someone as clever as you could easily find the evidence if you really want it but I don't think you do


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Ah, the old "if you can't see it you must be stupid" proof.
> 
> I actually make judgements almost entirely on evidence, and I have none to show that the EU is corrupt. So could you indulge me and point me at some, please? I assure you that I will be convinced should the evidence actually stack up.


Any organisation that takes billions from it's members and isn't held accountable for where it's gone probably isn't acting totally honestly.


----------



## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> Any organisation that takes billions from it's members and isn't held accountable for where it's gone probably isn't acting totally honestly.


No one seems to challenge the expenses
Junckers £ 24,000 air taxi to rome sorta stuck in my throat


----------



## 1290423

When the going gets tough, you have to lie
Jean claude juncker


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> Give google a good read and you will find plenty
> 
> I am not good at posting links as I usually mess them up but someone as clever as you could easily find the evidence if you really want it but I don't think you do


It may not surprise you to learn that I have given google a very good read on the subject over the past 18 months and have found absolutely no proof that "the EU" is any more corrupt than any other large organisation, including the Westminster Parliament.

The oft quoted accusation that their accounts have not been signed off for however many years is nonsense, and the 'error' rate in the accounts is actually lower than that in the UK's national accounts. Not only that, but where money cannot be traced, it is practically always because once it has been passed back to the member countries through grants, it sometimes goes missing there, either by error or design; and that includes the UK. The EU has a fraud unit whose job it is to reduce the incidence of that and has been doing so in recent years.

There will no doubt be some individuals in the EU who are not exactly straight down the middle when it comes to expenses - Farage and Le Pen spring to mind - but I have seen no evidence to suggest that the incidence is higher than at Westminster. Moats, duck houses, and main residence porkies, anyone?

And as for being in it for what they can get out of it, two words; Boris and Johnson.

There seems to be some notion that I think the EU is wonderful. That is not the case. I think it is an organisation that needs ongoing reform, and that the human frailties within it will be no better than anywhere else. I don't think they will be any worse either, unless I am pointed at evidence to the contrary. If you have some, direct me to it, with or without a link, and I will have another look. If you have none, then the throwaway term "corrupt EU" begins to look like bias rather than description.


----------



## Bisbow

You have been given two examples by Dr Pepper and DT and poo-pood them straight away and found excuses for them so nothing will convince you so you will have to live with it

They are CURRUPT and that is the end of it as far as I am concerned, you have not proved otherwise


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> I think it is an organisation that needs ongoing reform, and that the human frailties within it will be no better than anywhere else.


Isn't it interesting that the UK press ignores positive changes that happen. State of the Union speech for 2017 included the introduction of a Code of Conduct for Members of the Commission complete with accountability and ensuring transparancy. No system is perfect but change does happen.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-3167_en.htm

Still haven't seen anyone provide arguments as to how leaving the EU helps. All that has happened is the UK public is losing the ability to hold those responsible for their well being to account.



Bisbow said:


> You have been given two examples by Dr Pepper and DT and poo-pood them straight away and found excuses for them so nothing will convince you so you will have to live with it


So how does leaving the EU help?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Still haven't seen anyone provide arguments as to how leaving the EU helps.


Plenty of examples have been given throughout this enormous thread but you choose to ignore them.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Plenty of examples have been given throughout this enormous thread but you choose to ignore them.


None which stand up to scrutiny and facts. Like always a brush off non-answer rather than actual answer.


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> You have been given two examples by Dr Pepper and DT and poo-pood them straight away and found excuses for them so nothing will convince you so you will have to live with it
> 
> They are CURRUPT and that is the end of it as far as I am concerned, you have not proved otherwise


I don't believe I commented on them at all, let alone "poo-pood" (sic) them.

But if you want comments: the former has nothing to back it up. In what way is there no accountability for where the money has gone? I pointed out that the money causing the error rate in the accounts was largely part of the grants that had already been made back to EU members. Surely they are the ones who should then be accountable. And to conclude that this inaccurate statement is indicative that the EU "probably isn't acting totally honestly" is hardly proof.

As for Juncker's £24,000 trip; I suspect that could have been undertaken at lower cost, though the EU response is that nothing else was available. Whether that is true or not is another matter. In any case I would think it is suggestive of profligacy rather than corruption.

But I also said that from what I have found the EU is no more nor less corrupt than any other large organisation. And for comparison, after Theresa May bribed the DUP into supporting them using £1.5 billion of British tax payers' money she got an RAF jet to take Arlene Foster home at a cost of £20,000.

I think the onus of proof is on those who make accusations, otherwise they must be regarded as baseless.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> None which stand up to scrutiny and facts. Like always a brush off non-answer rather than actual answer.


I am not even going to bother trying to give you an answer because whatever I say and anyone else says who has a different opinion to you, you decide to accuse of not answering your questions.

Everyone has different views to the questions you ask even your precious experts have different opinions on Brexit as well.


----------



## Bisbow

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not even going to bother trying to give you an answer because whatever I say and anyone else says who has a different opinion to you, you decide to accuse of not answering your questions.
> 
> Everyone has different views to the questions you ask even your precious experts have different opinions on Brexit as well.


You are so right
After all, we leave voters so we have no idea what we voted for, along with over 50% of the country


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I don't believe I commented on them at all, let alone "poo-pood" (sic) them.
> 
> But if you want comments: the former has nothing to back it up. In what way is there no accountability for where the money has gone? I pointed out that the money causing the error rate in the accounts was largely part of the grants that had already been made back to EU members. Surely they are the ones who should then be accountable. And to conclude that this inaccurate statement is indicative that the EU "probably isn't acting totally honestly" is hardly proof.
> 
> As for Juncker's £24,000 trip; I suspect that could have been undertaken at lower cost, though the EU response is that nothing else was available. Whether that is true or not is another matter. In any case I would think it is suggestive of profligacy rather than corruption.
> 
> But I also said that from what I have found the EU is no more nor less corrupt than any other large organisation. And for comparison, after Theresa May bribed the DUP into supporting them using £1.5 billion of British tax payers' money she got an RAF jet to take Arlene Foster home at a cost of £20,000.
> 
> I think the onus of proof is on those who make accusations, otherwise they must be regarded as baseless.


I was basing my statement of the EU accounts which I believe they "sign off" their selves rather than an independent body. And then there is, from memory, a discrepancy of 4% or so which is a massive six billion euros. How can they not account for such a huge sum? If it was a bussiness misplacing that amount on a regular basis the company would be struck off and the directors investigated.

Now that's from memory, so the figures could be wrong and I'm sure someone will correct me if that's the case.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> I was basing my statement of the EU accounts which I believe they "sign off" their selves rather than an independent body.


*The role of the European Court of Auditors*
2.2 The ECA is the independent external auditor of the EU. It is a collegiate body of 28 members, one from each member state. The ECA audits the consolidated financial statements of the EU, which are produced annually by the Commission's Directorate General for Budget.​
All 28 of them might be corrupt, I guess, but it seems unlikely.



Dr Pepper said:


> And then there is, from memory, a discrepancy of 4% or so which is a massive six billion euros. How can they not account for such a huge sum? If it was a business misplacing that amount on a regular basis the company would be struck off and the directors investigated.
> 
> Now that's from memory, so the figures could be wrong and I'm sure someone will correct me if that's the case.


Your memory is pretty good on that point. In 2015 the 'error' rate was 3.8%. But some comments on that.

The total EU budget is a little less than the UK's NHS budget.

The ECA says:
"*Our estimate of the level of error is not a measure of fraud, inefficiency or waste*. It is an estimate of the money that should not have been paid out because it was not used in accordance with the applicable rules and regulations."​
I.e. most of it - and really isn't very much compared to the UK spending - is cock-up, not corruption.

And from Full Fact:
While the EU is ultimately responsible for its own budget, the majority of the spending is implemented by member countries. *Both the EU and member states make similar amounts of error.*

In the UK's case, the Public Accounts Committee has criticised the [UK] government for designing programmes which add to the complexity of EU spending, and showing a "distinct lack of urgency" in tackling that complexity and reducing the penalties the UK needs to pay back to the EU.

It can take the EU several years to make corrections to the money paid out in error. It estimates that between *2009 and 2015 it recovered just over 2% of the average payments*.​
So of that 3.8% we can expect about 2% to be reclaimed, leaving 1.8%.

The payments / accounts aren't perfect, but neither are those in the UK, where the error rate is similar, and I have seen figures of 5% for the UK's national account.

Of course there is a certain amount of fraud / corruption. But it is a small part of less than 2% of a total budget smaller than that of the NHS. Given that, and the rest of the above, @Bisbow 's reference to the "Corrupt EU" doesn't seem to me justified in any way. As ever, if there is evidence to the contrary - by which I don't mean articles in the Express or Mail highlighting and exaggerating individual instances - then I will reconsider my view. I am no EU apologist, but I like facts.

For reference, the Full Fact quotes come from here: https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

The info re the ECA comes from a pdf called "Financial management of the European Union budget in 2014: a briefing for the Committee of Public Accounts" which I wouldn't recommend for bedtime reading.


----------



## Elles

Our government isn't great either. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Due to its ambitions and imperfections the Eu is a difficult body to promote. I didn't particularly think of it as any more or less corrupt than any other governing body in Europe. It's hard to justify the cost and its power to people who want to leave it though. 

Britain has never really been into it. I think people look at our politicians going to the Eu with a begging bowl and the Eu saying no, when people think we shouldn't be asking anyone for anything. How do you improve the Eu's image and get people to want to stay in it?

You can't and it's too late now. It always would be a problem for Remainers.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> How do you improve the Eu's image and get people to want to stay in it?


Truth but that's not something leavers support.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Truth but that's not something leavers support. They are happy and encourage our politicians to lie to them if they say what they want.


What truth?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> What truth?


If I may ... the truth, for example, as in my long boring post above rather than the carefully selected and exaggerated stories in the Mail, Express, Telegraph, Sun, etc suggesting how corrupt, unaccountable, undemocratic and wasteful the EU is. Such stories are never refuted by politicians, who, for decades, have been happy to use the EU as a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.


----------



## Goblin

Considering the fact that most leavers on this thread can only restate the proven lies of the leave campaign says something in itself. 
https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-myths-and-our-disgraceful-press-followed-his

Edit: Of course truth is good and the bad. We need transparancy not deals behind closed doors. Nobody has claimed the EU is perfect.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Considering the fact that most leavers on this thread can only restate the proven lies of the leave campaign says something in itself.
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-myths-and-our-disgraceful-press-followed-his


Absolutely spot on.


----------



## KittenKong

This is so true.


----------



## rona

Goblin said:


> Considering the fact that most leavers on this thread can only restate the proven lies of the leave campaign says something in itself. Far be it to actually correct them, that's insulting them, they are quite happy with their prejudice..
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-myths-and-our-disgraceful-press-followed-his
> 
> Edit: Of course truth is good and the bad. We need transparancy not deals behind closed doors. Nobody has claimed the EU is perfect.


Haha The New statesman.....a lefty rag owned by and who's editer came from the rags that are being slated here


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> Considering the fact that most leavers on this thread can only restate the proven lies of the leave campaign says something in itself. Far be it to actually correct them, that's insulting them, they are quite happy with their prejudice..
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-myths-and-our-disgraceful-press-followed-his
> 
> Edit: Of course truth is good and the bad. We need transparancy not deals behind closed doors. Nobody has claimed the EU is perfect.





Arnie83 said:


> Absolutely spot on.


This pathological liar has a lot to answer for, he's dragged our country into the gutter.


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Haha The New statesman.....a lefty rag owned by and who's editer came from the rags that are being slated here


Maybe but tell me what is false about the article...


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Haha The New statesman.....a lefty rag owned by and who's editer came from the rags that are being slated here


Another good article in Staggers on the interview your hero (& mine) David Attenborough did with Greenpeace's unearthed.

Brexit
25 September 2017
* David Attenborough: Brexiteers "probably don't understand" facts*

The celebrated naturalist warned against the rise of nationalism

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...ugh-brexiteers-probably-dont-understand-facts


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Another good article in Staggers on the interview your hero (& mine) David Attenborough did with Greenpeace's unearthed.
> 
> Brexit
> 25 September 2017
> * David Attenborough: Brexiteers "probably don't understand" facts*
> 
> The celebrated naturalist warned against the rise of nationalism
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...ugh-brexiteers-probably-dont-understand-facts


Also spot on.

Cue ad hominen attacks on David Attenborough ...


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Also spot on.
> 
> Cue ad hominen attacks on David Attenborough ...


He's getting 'leftie luvvie' on twitter lol


----------



## Arnie83

On a new tangent ... Corbyn (apparently our PM in waiting) wants to leave the single market because the rules wouldn't let him use state aid to support struggling companies and industries.

The US has just slapped a 220% import tariff on Bombardier jets because of 'unfair state aid'.

The Brexiteers are touting a Free Trade Agreement with the US as the great saviour when we've burnt our EU bridges.

Anyone see clouds on the horizon?


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> On a new tangent ... Corbyn (apparently our PM in waiting) wants to leave the single market because the rules wouldn't let him use state aid to support struggling companies and industries.
> 
> The US has just slapped a 220% import tariff on Bombardier jets because of 'unfair state aid'.
> 
> The Brexiteers are touting a Free Trade Agreement with the US as the great saviour when we've burnt our EU bridges.
> 
> Anyone see clouds on the horizon?


I don't think he wants a trade deal with the US does he? I'm sure he says a deal with them will mean a race to the bottom for us & he is scathing of Trump. I think we have to keep the pressure on labour to keep us the single market. Its the only hope we've got :/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The US has just slapped a 220% import tariff on Bombardier jets because of 'unfair state aid'.


This has *NOTHING* to do with Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> On a new tangent ... Corbyn (apparently our PM in waiting) wants to leave the single market because the rules wouldn't let him use state aid to support struggling companies and industries.


Corbyn made it clear that Labour support leaving the Single Market and completing Brexit. His party though is split on the Single Market issue.


----------



## noushka05

I've just spotted this tweet by James Chapman!

Invitation from @*EmmanuelMacron* for UK to remain in substantially reformed EU potentially massive gamechanger in Brexit debate #*stopbrexit*


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> This has *NOTHING* to do with Brexit.


It will be when the EU countries sting the UK with import tarrifs themselves!


----------



## noushka05

*Russian Linked Leave.EU Figures Targeting Elections Worldwide

*
https://www.byline.com/column/67/article/1842


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Corbyn made it clear that Labour support leaving the Single Market and completing Brexit. His party though is split on the Single Market issue.


Agreed but the Tories are hardly united either are they?!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> It will be when the EU countries sting the UK with import tarrifs themselves!


Still it is *NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT *it is a dispute with Bombardier and the UK. I love how remainers try to link this with Brexit when it has nothing to do with it.

This is why the UK are going to negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU which is what they plan to do.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Agreed but the Tories are hardly united either are they?!


Seem pretty united to me. They are all behind TM's Brexit. They managed to get through both votes a couple of weeks ago on Brexit.

I think TM needs to get rid of the remainers in Cabinet including herself and let Brexitiers take over leading the country out of the EU.

I don't know any party in Parliament who is united about Brexit btw.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Seem pretty united to me. They are all behind TM's Brexit. They managed to get through both votes a couple of weeks ago on Brexit.
> 
> I think TM needs to get rid of the remainers in Cabinet including herself and let Brexitiers take over leading the country out of the EU.
> 
> I don't know any party in Parliament who is united about Brexit btw.


May was never a remainer. Why do you think Cameron called her the 'submarine' SWC?  Shes hard right authoritarian.

The neoliberal hard right wingers hate the EU. They don't want to lose their tax loopholes (see tweet below). And now they are desperate to turn Britain into a tax haven. How will we pay for our already decimated public services & NHS??

*European Commission*‏Verified [email protected]*EU_Commission* Sep 21

"We want to apply a simple principle: companies should pay tax where their actual economic activity takes place #FairTaxation.

.......


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> May was never a remainer.


Oh yes she is. Her true colours came out when she done her speech last week.

Regarding Labour, they still think they are fighting a General Election which finished months ago. Theresa May by the way is still way ahead in the polls to lead the UK out of the EU than Jeremy Corbyn and Labour.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> I've always liked Dan Hannan's calm responses to some tough questions. If you've got 20 minutes to watch.....


Daniel Hannan the climate change denier?, the one who slagged off our NHS to Fox news?. I love this description of him on SourceWatch. *He is adept at turning arguments on their head for his own purposes. * 

Anyone who cares anything about our living planet should read the page dedicated to Hannan - http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Daniel_Hannan He shares the same dangerous ideology as the Tea Party. He is a fraud & a liar.

Oh and here 'leftie' Ian Dunt shows how you skewer a snake oil salesman like Hannan  Torn to shreds lol


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> This has *NOTHING* to do with Brexit.


Might as well blame Brexit . . . it's the present scapegoat for everything else. Now stand in the corner @stockwellcat. and stay there until you can behave yourself.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh yes she is.


Yep; and Boris didn't decide what on earth he was until a few weeks before the referendum and could see which way the wind was blowing (and what might be in it for him presumably).


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> Might as well blame Brexit . . . it's the present scapegoat for everything else. Now stand in the corner @stockwellcat. and stay there until you can behave yourself.


I blame Brexit:

For the weather, 
For me being late for work
:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat. said:


> I blame Brexit:
> 
> For the weather,
> For me being late for work
> :Hilarious


Just dropped and broke a mug. Brexit is to blame for that.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Seem pretty united to me. They are all behind TM's Brexit. They managed to get through both votes a couple of weeks ago on Brexit.
> 
> I think TM needs to get rid of the remainers in Cabinet including herself and let Brexitiers take over leading the country out of the EU.
> 
> I don't know any party in Parliament who is united about Brexit btw.


Depends what you read. The last I heard some 50 MPs were plotting against May. As much as I would love to see her ousted it'll be out of the frying pan and into the fire with Rees Mogg whose favourite to replace her or Boris Johnson.

Tories voted with May due to the three line whip, as Corbyn of course exercised earlier in the year. Oh yes the DUP too. Well worth £1bn+ wasn't it....

Nevertheless although I applaud Corbyn in many ways I cannot accept his stance on Brexit, it is that one reason alone I cannot support him.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> ..
> 
> Nevertheless although I applaud Corbyn in many ways I cannot accept his stance on Brexit, it is that one reason alone I cannot support him.


So you support him for not telling the his MP's off for being anti Jewish or ranting about the royal family

Nice


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Depends what you read. The last I heard some 50 MPs were plotting against May. As much as I would love to see her ousted it'll be out of the frying pan and into the fire with Rees Mogg whose favourite to replace her or Boris Johnson.


Rees Mogg is a hard brexitier. Although I disagree with his attitude towards Gay Marriage, Abortion etc.


> Tories voted with May due to the three line whip, as Corbyn of course exercised earlier in the year. Oh yes the DUP too. Well worth £1bn+ wasn't it....


Did they? I didn't hear about that. On the subject of the £1bn paid to the DUP, they don't have it yet. The treasury scuppered that say Parliment needs to have a vote on it before any money is exchanged hands. TM needs Parliments approval to give the DUP £1bn.


> Nevertheless although I applaud Corbyn in many ways I cannot accept his stance on Brexit, it is that one reason alone I cannot support him.


There won't be another GE until 2022 so you don't have to worry about him getting in. He'll be 72 then (he's 68 now). By which time the UK will be out of the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> This has *NOTHING* to do with Brexit.


Correct. It has to do with 'unfair *state aid*', as I said in my post. But I obviously wasn't clear enough.

The reason I put it in here is that it is an example of what happens when there is 'state aid'.

Corbyn wants to leave the single market so that he is free to provide state aid to companies and industries.

If, after Brexit, we are relying on free trade deals with other countries, they won't be impressed by our state aid position if Corbyn happens to be in charge.

And therefore we won't get free trade deals.

And therefore free trade deals won't compensate for the loss of trade with the EU incurred through leaving the single market.

Those were the clouds to which I referred.

Is that clearer?



stockwellcat. said:


> Corbyn made it clear that Labour support leaving the Single Market and completing Brexit. His party though is split on the Single Market issue.


And the above may well be why.



stockwellcat. said:


> I blame Brexit:
> 
> For the weather,
> For me being late for work





stockwellcat. said:


> Just dropped and broke a mug. Brexit is to blame for that.


These are very amusing, but since I wasn't blaming Brexit for the Bombardier situation, the humour is somewhat misplaced.


----------



## Elles

Hardly anyone cares what the Russians have or haven't got up to. Russia ain't what it used to be.

The biggest threat to Brexit would be a handsome Frenchman promising a substantially reformed Eu. Many of us would have little defence against that one.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> This has *NOTHING* to do with Brexit.


Must have missed brexit being blamed. What it does show however is the international trade system. Where companies complain to the WTO and get tariffs imposed over "state aid". You know that money the government is probably giving car manufacturers such as nissan to stay in the UK for example. There are lots of rules under the WTO which the UK would have to follow or be penalised for. WTO rules which we have no input or say in. Also interesting to note how our "special friend" America is helping trade.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Still it is *NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT *it is a dispute with Bombardier and the UK. I love how remainers try to link this with Brexit when it has nothing to do with it.
> 
> This is why the UK are going to negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU which is what they plan to do.


Now come on, no-one has blamed Brexit for this one. But it does have a _bearing _on Brexit. It may not be a direct aspect, but very few political scenarios at that sort of level are 100% self contained and affect nothing else.

In this case, the attitudes being displayed by the US are an indication of what we can expect from them when trying to negotiate a trade deal. If you wish to take things further, you could perhaps consider it a not-so-subtle hint as to the rules the US expects other countries to follow in order for them to deign to trade with them. Fail to satisfy US whims, and you get penalised in punative fashion. If that means ruining your economy, fine by them, less competition for their own companies.

The EU is a big enough entity to significantly lessen the impact of such tactics, and has enough standing to challenge them politically and diplomatically if necessary, and support their member states. Once the UK is on it's own, we don't have that, so the US can pretty much insist on any terms it wants. Now, you can, if you wish, assume that they will be benevolent and generous. The Bombadier situation, however, is a reminder that this is usually not the case in US business or politics, particularly as Number 45 has taken great pains to repeatedly remind us that everything from now on is going to be "America First." Given that many regard a trade deal with the US as an essential element of a successful Brexit, why would you not think that is cause for concern?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Must have missed brexit being blamed. What it does show however is the international trade system. Where companies complain to the WTO and get tariffs imposed over "state aid". You know that money the government is probably giving car manufacturers such as nissan to stay in the UK for example. There are lots of rules under the WTO which the UK would have to follow or be penalised for. WTO rules which we have no input or say in. Also interesting to note how our "special friend" America is helping trade.


Interesting you mention WTO rules when this was a deal with Bomardier and the UK. We aren't currently allowed to trade under WTO rules as we are in the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Now come on, no-one has blamed Brexit for this one. But it does have a _bearing _on Brexit. It may not be a direct aspect, but very few political scenarios at that sort of level are 100% self contained and affect nothing else.
> 
> In this case, the attitudes being displayed by the US are an indication of what we can expect from them when trying to negotiate a trade deal. If you wish to take things further, you could perhaps consider it a not-so-subtle hint as to the rules the US expects other countries to follow in order for them to deign to trade with them. Fail to satisfy US whims, and you get penalised in punative fashion. If that means ruining your economy, fine by them, less competition for their own companies.
> 
> The EU is a big enough entity to significantly lessen the impact of such tactics, and has enough standing to challenge them politically and diplomatically if necessary, and support their member states. Once the UK is on it's own, we don't have that, so the US can pretty much insist on any terms it wants. Now, you can, if you wish, assume that they will be benevolent and generous. The Bombadier situation, however, is a reminder that this is usually not the case in US business or politics, particularly as Number 45 has taken great pains to repeatedly remind us that everything from now on is going to be "America First." Given that many regard a trade deal with the US as an essential element of a successful Brexit, why would you not think that is cause for concern?


Well there are plenty of other countries outside of the EU the UK will consider trading with, the US-UK trade deal isn't a done deal yet so might not come to fruition. We seem to be doing well with the talks on the UK-AUS one and UK-NZ ones as everything there is quite positive but obviously we cannot enter into any agreements until we leave the EU.

Yes import and export charges are something that will have to be considered, but I thought we was looking at Free Trade Deals with as much tarriff free access as possible with potential trading partners?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Interesting you mention WTO rules when this was a deal with Bomardier and the UK. We aren't currently allowed to trade under WTO rules as we are in the EU.


I believe Goblin was referring to any future scenario where we WERE rading under WTO rules. They are a lot stricter than current trade deals, and rather more punitive, if memory serves.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Well there are plenty of other countries outside of the EU the UK will consider trading with, the US-UK trade deal isn't a done deal yet so might not come to fruition. We seem to be doing well with the talks on the UK-AUS one and UK-NZ ones as everything there is quite positive.
> 
> Yes import and export charges are something that will have to be considered, but I thought we was looking at Free Trads Deals with as much tarriff free acceaa as possible with potential trading partners?


_We're_ looking at it, yes. Other countries that we want to deal with may have a different opinion, and they may well want things hardline Brexiteers don't want to give. Import and export charges are only the very tip of the iceberg.

India, for example, are very keen to get open borders with the UK as part of any deal, and as they have plenty of other customers for their goods they have the luxury of being able to put trade deals with us on hold indefinitely until such a time as we are willling to give them terms they like. In fact, given that we will be the only major country without any current trade deals, most countries, even the smaller ones, will be in a similar position of having multiple markets, plus the ability to sell on to us via a middleman like the EU. That's not scaremongering, that's just a realistic assessment of our political position if we crash out of the EU with no deals - beggars can't be choosers, after all, and we don't have much to offer other countries can't get elsewhere. Sure, we'll survive, but most likely in the context of a servant nation with diminished international influence.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Interesting you mention WTO rules when this was a deal with Bomardier and the UK. We aren't currently allowed to trade under WTO rules as we are in the EU.


Actually we do trade under WTO rules even as part of the EU. Your assertion is false. The EU is a member of the WTO and the UK trades under WTO within the umbrella of the EU. However we take advantage of a lot of the beneficial trade arrangements made by the EU which bypasses some of the restrictions. The EU often fights disputes in trade arrangements as a whole rather than individual countries having to do so. That way we have benefitted from more experience and clout. 97 cases where the EU has complained about another countries practice, 84 where another country has compained about EU "restriction". The EU has also been a 3rd party in 167 disputes. Remember this: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/steel-tata-javid-eu-dumping_uk_56fbbdd1e4b0c5bd919a9215 Also relevent: http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1669 I wonder who will be responsible for handling things like this once we leave and what experience they have...

You seem to be under the impression that trade deals are simply about tariffs. There is far more to trade deals than tarifs. One example being standards. Can you imagine a situation where manufacturers need multiple production lines to match different trade agreement standards. Not a problem within the EU as trade deals tend to adopt EU standards as the EU has the clout to insist on it so a single production line to a high standard.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Actually we do trade under WTO rules even as part of the EU. Your assertion is false. The EU is a member of the WTO and the UK trades under WTO within the umbrella of the EU. However we take advantage of a lot of the beneficial trade arrangements made by the EU which bypasses some of the restrictions. The EU often fights disputes in trade arrangements as a whole rather than individual countries having to do so. That way we have benefitted from more experience and clout. 97 cases where the EU has complained about another countries practice, 84 where another country has compained about EU "restriction". The EU has also been a 3rd party in 167 disputes. Remember this: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/steel-tata-javid-eu-dumping_uk_56fbbdd1e4b0c5bd919a9215 Also relevent: http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1669 I wonder who will be responsible for handling things like this once we leave and what experience they have...
> 
> You seem to be under the impression that trade deals are simply about tariffs. There is far more to trade deals than tarifs. One example being standards. Can you imagine a situation where manufacturers need multiple production lines to match different trade agreement standards. Not a problem within the EU as trade deals tend to adopt EU standards as the EU has the clout to insist on it so a single production line to a high standard.


Oh well that's interesting because when we was discussing WTO you said we aren't allowed to trade under WTO because we are in the EU. So you have now changed your mind.

Our trade deal is with the EU we have no separate trade deals. You told us this as well.

So now you are telling us we do have WTO trade deals even though you said the EU are in charge of the trade deals struck as they they govern all the trade in the EU. Funny isn't how you change your mind.

The UK is also a member of WTO (as well as every country under the EU umbrella) as well remember I proved you wrong with this.
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/united_kingdom_e.htm


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh well that's interesting because when we was discussing WTO you said we aren't allowed to trade under WTO because we are in the EU. So you have now changed your mind.


You'll remember I said we would have to join the WTO as we were not a separate member but the EU was. EU is a legal entity and a member of the WTO. I then admitted I was wrong as the UK as you provided a link showing the UK is a member separately. Unlike some I freely admit when I am wrong rather than go all evasive. I see nothing wrong in that.

Nothing has changed. We trade under the WTO as part of the EU. As a body the EU have powers and trade deals which excuse us from many of the necessesities of the WTO. Once we leave the EU we revert solely on WTO rules as we have no trade deals in place. Fairly simply and obvious and no different to what has previously been stated.

So rather than trying to make it appear about me, how about you deal with the facts?


----------



## Goblin

To put in into perspective:










vs


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> To put in into perspective:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vs


Looks like the same world map to me except the second map is a bit colourless.

The colour map is slightly wrong as Trump isn't keen on a deal with the EU although they have a WTO deal with them. The deal with America has been on hold for a very long time.

Plus can I add Canada, Australia and New Zealand are interested in trading with the UK post Brexit as well as USA. We won't be as difficult as the EU to trade with either, hence how long CETA has taken and of course the American trade negotiations.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Looks like the same world map to me except the second map is a bit colourless.


That's as the UK will have no trade deals when leaving. A fact you ignore as inconvenient.



> The colour map is slightly wrong as Trump isn't keen on a deal with the EU although they have a WTO deal with them. The deal with America has been on hold for a very long time.


Yet the deal with Canada is done. You've an example of Trump's america with bombadier but you also want to ignore that as inconvenient. Nothing to do with brexit obviously.



> Plus can I add Canada, Australia and New Zealand are interested in trading with the UK post Brexit as well as USA. We won't be as difficult as the EU to trade with either, hence how long CETA has taken and of course the American trade negotiations.


Of course other countries will want to deal with us. Of course trade deals will not be as complicated, we are desparate for deals and preferential agreements. Ignore the fact that we will not have the clout to negotiate the best deals. Then again you also ignore the experts who talk about of the realities of trade deals and the negotiation process. The same experts who are going to be responsible for negotiating these trade deals.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> That's as the UK will have no trade deals when leaving. A fact you ignore as inconvenient.
> 
> Yet the deal with Canada is done. You've an example of Trump's america with bombadier but you also want to ignore that as inconvenient. Nothing to do with brexit obviously.
> 
> Of course other countries will want to deal with us. Of course trade deals will not be as complicated, we are desparate for deals and preferential agreements. Ignore the fact that we will not have the clout to negotiate the best deals. Then again you also ignore the experts who talk about of the realities of trade deals and the negotiation process. The same experts who are going to be responsible for negotiating these trade deals.


Wow. How correct you are 

Things will work out. Be patient.


----------



## Elles

Of course we won't have trade deals the day we leave the Eu. We're not allowed to have.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Of course we won't have trade deals the day we leave the Eu. We're not allowed to have.


I think, if we are sufficiently generous with our money during the transition period, there is a chance that the EU 27 may let us negotiate deals during that period to come into effect on leaving day, but it may only be a small chance.

Most likely - since we'll be a bit busy negotiating a deal with the EU - would be to try to get a continuation of some of the deals we already have as part of the EU, though that depends on the generosity of the other partner.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> Daniel Hannan the climate change denier?, the one who slagged off our NHS to Fox news?. I love this description of him on SourceWatch. *He is adept at turning arguments on their head for his own purposes. *
> 
> Anyone who cares anything about our living planet should read the page dedicated to Hannan - http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Daniel_Hannan He shares the same dangerous ideology as the Tea Party. He is a fraud & a liar.
> 
> Oh and here 'leftie' Ian Dunt shows how you skewer a snake oil salesman like Hannan  Torn to shreds lol


Thank you for posting this interview, Noushka - a really interesting watch and listen. Did you not watch or listen to it yourself? There was no 'skewering' or 'tearing to shreds' - just another example of Hannan being able to answer all questions with a calmness and optimism sadly lacking in others.

Dunt did actually admit at one point that Hannan was "speaking sensible, good stuff" and "everything Dan said is right".

Also - I know you pride yourself on your unbiased sources for information so I thought I would have a look at SourceWatch which you quoted in your attempt to discredit Daniel Hannan.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Wow. How correct you are
> 
> Things will work out. Be patient.


Things will work out, in otherwords.. who cares if we are worse off. Wishes <> reality the latter of which you sidestep whenever you can during this thread.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Things will work out, in otherwords.. who cares if we are worse off. Wishes <> reality the latter of which you sidestep whenever you can during this thread.


Look I voted leave and that was the verdict of the referendum so it is exactly what I expect to happen, like Anglea Merkel won the elections in Germany you expect her to form a Government.

So in respect of this I expect the UK to leave the EU and the sooner the better.


----------



## Goblin

Too bad democracy is more than the result of a single vote isn't it. Reality and facts don't simply go away because of a "we won the vote" mantra.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Too bad democracy is more than the result of a single vote isn't it. Reality and facts don't simply go away because of a "we won the vote" mantra.


Really.

Well at the moment it doesn't matter if the conservatives or labour are in as both parties have said we are leaving the EU. No second referendum either. Oh the mayor of London can request what he wants but he gets largely ignored.

Democracy hasn't exactly stopped Brexit so far (MP's voted overwhelmingly for Article 50 and in favour of the repeal bill) and the attempt to stop brexit so far actually helped the process start (Gina Miller Case).


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Hardly anyone cares what the Russians have or haven't got up to. Russia ain't what it used to be.
> 
> The biggest threat to Brexit would be a handsome Frenchman promising a substantially reformed Eu. Many of us would have little defence against that one.


You're kidding me!. Kenya cared. Investigators in the USA are taking Russia's interference in the presidential election extremely seriously. This country doesn't appear to care, so i'll give you that much Elles.



samuelsmiles said:


> Thank you for posting this interview, Noushka - a really interesting watch and listen. Did you not watch or listen to it yourself? There was no 'skewering' or 'tearing to shreds' - just another example of Hannan being able to answer all questions with a calmness and optimism sadly lacking in others.
> 
> Dunt did actually admit at one point that Hannan was "speaking sensible, good stuff" and "everything Dan said is right".
> 
> Also - I know you pride yourself on your unbiased sources for information so I thought I would have a look at SourceWatch which you quoted in your attempt to discredit Daniel Hannan.


Wow selective hearing much:Hilarious

I do try to provide credible sources of reference, maybe you should try checking out the credibility of your own references though? A quick look at your source should have most peoples alarm bells ringing off the wall . Its clear just looking at the website they are front for corporate interests. They are pro fracking, pro neonicotinoids, pro GM, anti organic & pro pesticides. No wonder they are so desperate to discredit SourceWatch lol when they are in bed with the chemical & oil companies Here they are claiming that glyphosate is safe! https://www.acsh.org/news/2016/09/30/glyphosate-slow-steady-vindication-10239 They are _anti_ science. No doubt Monsanto are one of their funders.

Desmog is another trustworthy source of reference, they have done great work exposing the 'Tufton street' set. I'm sure I posted about on your climate change thread?https://www.desmogblog.com/2017/02/...cience-message-trump-administration-cpac-2017










*Introducing the Institute for Free Trade: A New Pro-Brexit Thinktank tied to the UK's Climate Science Denier Network
*
https://www.desmog.uk/2017/09/27/in...nktank-tied-uk-climate-science-denier-network


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> We won the vote.. who cares if we damage the country.. we won the vote. Don't bother me with facts or details.. don't look at minimising the damage.. we won the vote.


Nobody said it'd be easy, but it will be the way of the UK and not the way of 27 other members of a club we never voted to join. Now there's democracy


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Democracy hasn't exactly stopped Brexit so far


How accountable are our government? You do not seem to care if the government is accountable or if they actually lie to you. What does that say about the wellbeing of the UK in the future? My opinion only but both The conservatives and Labour both are in tatters and scrambling around at the moment. Both aren't looking for the wellbeing of the UK and it's people but their own parties and positions.



> Nobody said it'd be easy, but it will be the way of the UK and not the way of 27 other members of a club we never voted to join. Now there's democracy


Democracy according to Dr Pepper.


----------



## Elles

Most people vote based on a few things that interest or bother them I'd guess. No one can know everything about everything. So if you expect voters to know about everything they're voting for, may as well do away with it altogether.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> I get it, you feel disenfranchised from the uk because of the referendum result. Well frankly if you were so concerned you shouldn't have disenfranchised yourself by leaving.
> 
> *Nobody said it'd be easy,* but it will be the way of the UK and not the way of 27 other members of a club we never voted to join. Now there's democracy
> 
> Edit
> Mind you Germany doesn't have a history of respecting democracy so maybe you have just been there to long.


This pack of liars did.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> How accountable are our government? You do not seem to care if the government is accountable or if they actually lie to you. What does that say about the wellbeing of the UK in the future? My opinion only but both The conservatives and Labour both are in tatters and scrambling around at the moment. Both aren't looking for the wellbeing of the UK and it's people but their own parties and positions.
> 
> Democracy according to Dr Pepper.


Ooohhhh, hit a nerve there didn't I.

Sorry.

Oh, and I've explained time and again what I voted for.


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> This pack of liars did.


Sorry, not familiar with any of those, I voted by personal experience and expectations rather than other's opinions. However that bloody propaganda leaflet didn't help the remain vote.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> How accountable are our government that can stand up to the Conservatives or Labour? You do not seem to care if the government is accountable or if they actually lie to you. What does that say about the wellbeing of the UK in the future? My opinion only but both The conservatives and Labour both are in tatters and scrambling around at the moment. Both aren't looking for the wellbeing of the UK and it's people but their own parties and positions.


So tell me then which other party is there in Parliment? The Liberal Democrats are ignored now and then theres the Green Party. So apart from Labour and Conservatives there is no other party large enough to sit in Government. Democracy is speeking loud and clear in the UK and MP's are largely voting in favour of every process of Brexit. The Conservatives have the majority in the committee rooms in Parliment as well now so can put the Brexit processes through unhindered.


----------



## Elles

Leaving the Eu is easy and could be a lot easier, it's the staying in (aka cherry picking) that's proving difficult. On both sides.


----------



## samuelsmiles

noushka05 said:


> You're kidding me!. Kenya cared. Investigators in the USA are taking Russia's interference in the presidential election extremely seriously. This country doesn't appear to care, so i'll give you that much Elles.
> 
> Wow selective hearing much:Hilarious
> 
> I do try to provide credible sources of reference, maybe you should try checking out the credibility of your own references though? A quick look at your source should have most peoples alarm bells ringing off the wall . Its clear just looking at the website they are front for corporate interests. They are pro fracking, pro neonicotinoids, pro GM, anti organic & pro pesticides. No wonder they are so desperate to discredit SourceWatch lol when they are in bed with the chemical & oil companies Here they are claiming that glyphosate is safe! https://www.acsh.org/news/2016/09/30/glyphosate-slow-steady-vindication-10239 They are anti science. No doubt Monsanto are one of their funders.
> 
> Desmog is another trustworthy source of reference, they have done great work exposing the 'Tufton street' set. I'm sure I posted about on your climate change thread?https://www.desmogblog.com/2017/02/...cience-message-trump-administration-cpac-2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Introducing the Institute for Free Trade: A New Pro-Brexit Thinktank tied to the UK's Climate Science Denier Network
> *
> https://www.desmog.uk/2017/09/27/in...nktank-tied-uk-climate-science-denier-network


So you didn't even watch the video you posted trying to discredit Daniel Hannan. You know - the one where Dunt said Hannan was "saying all good stuff". Hardly a 'skewering'. Hey ho.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am still a leave supporter @Goblin and would vote the same way if I had to again. Nothing changed here


----------



## Dr Pepper

Elles said:


> Leaving the Eu is easy and could be a lot easier, it's the staying in (aka cherry picking) that's proving difficult. On both sides.


Ain't that the truth, and not what we voted for. It should have been simple.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> Ain't that the truth, and not what we voted for. It should have been simple.


Yes it should have been simple. We should have been out of the EU by now.


----------



## Elles

samuelsmiles said:


> So you didn't even watch the video you posted trying to discredit Daniel Hannan. You know - the one where Dunt said Hannan was "saying all good stuff". Hardly a 'skewering'. Hey ho.


I just had a listen and I agree. Dunt even said that he isn't against Brexit, just the way it's being done and agreed with hannan on many points. Maybe it was the wrong video linked.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> So you didn't even watch the video you posted trying to discredit Daniel Hannan. You know - the one where Dunt said Hannan was "saying all good stuff". Hardly a 'skewering'. Hey ho.


I certainly have. I suppose you didn't hear Dunt expose Hannan on complete nonsense he spouts about EU nationals? or push him on the reality of the complexities of leaving the EU?

Oh I've just found this on the LBC website. http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ian-collins/ian-dunt-tells-brexiteer-daniel-hannan-some-facts/ S.k.e.w.e.r.e.d.

*When a leading Brexiteer said the rights of EU nationals would not change after Brexit, Ian Dunt gave him some cold, hard facts.*

Daniel Hannan was debating with Mr Dunt, a staunch Remainer, live on Ian Collins' show on LBC last night.

And when Mr Hannan made the claim about EU nationals in the UK, Mr Dunt didn't let him get away with it.

Mr Hannan said:_ "The government has made really clear that your right to reside here and the associated rights to welfare, to healthcare, to work, will not be affected._

_"If you're already here as an EU national, nothing is going to change. The only thing that is going to change is that you will cease to be an EU citizen within the EU and therefore you won't have the right to vote in local elections."
_
But Mr Dunt hit back: _"Let me make clear that that is false._

_"EU nationals have the right to have a foreign spouse with them. You have the right to live with your wife, with your husband. That is a core right that you have._

_"British citizens don't have that right.

"If you earn less than £18,600, which an awful lot of people in this country do, you do not have the right to have them live with you._

_"So an EU national here, who is married to someone from America, Canada, Somalia, wherever, actually will lose the right to live with their husband or wife if they earn less than £18,600._

_"There are many other ways that EU nationals have lost their rights while being here and there's a more pernicious, broader way that they've emotionally been made to feel unwelcome in a country that they had started to call home._

_"But as one point of factual truth, they do not retain all the same rights_

Anyway, I'd say Hannans links to the climate denier network are enough to discredit him, wouldn't you? He has no credibility. Look at the dangerous ideology of America's Tea Party? - this is Hannan's ideology too


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

What word are people going to use when there is an actual disaster?

As no one in the uk was asked to vote for Donald Trump, proclaiming that people viewed him as a shining white knight of Brexit undermines anything else they say. I wasn't at the meeting between May and Trump, so I have no idea whether she grovelled at his feet like grima wormtongue to Theoden king.

Trump said 'America First' as his main campaign message. Who on Earth thought someone like him would save the Uk, not that it needs saving. I presume the Brits will stop buying 747s, or whatever plane the Americans are selling atm.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So please tell me why the UK should not just walk away from the EU negotiations when Brussels are now saying they are preparing to add another £10bn to the Brexit bill?

Back benchers are urging Government to prepare a scenario of were the UK should walk away from the EU negotiations.

See this is why we should just leave as the EU are already adding more to the bill to leave trying to screw the UK over and leave us poor. It will cost us not a penny more to just walk away with no deal. Yes there will be short term consequences but so what. The EU are definitly trying to take the p**s in my opinion.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41419858


----------



## Elles

Look at other countrys' credit rating after the crash and since? And they don't have the uncertainty of Brexit.


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh, and I've explained time and again what I voted for.


Yes I know.. you voted for what you don't know.



Dr Pepper said:


> Ain't that the truth, and not what we voted for. It should have been simple.





stockwellcat. said:


> Yes it should have been simple. We should have been out of the EU by now.


Yet you have both stated you don't know what was involved. It's only simple if you don't look at and accept the facts and reality. You've shown you have no idea therefore no appreciation of how "simple" it will be. Jumping off a cliff is simple and you go splat at the bottom, building a path down the cliff is harder.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Look at other countrys' credit rating after the crash and since? And they don't have the uncertainty of Brexit.


Exchange rate has certainly not helped current government payments resulting from the countries debt.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Goblin said:


> *Exchange rate* has certainly not helped current government payments resulting from the countries debt.


Again... if we hadn't voted out it wouldn't be happening.


----------



## KittenKong

Then.......








.........and now


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Look at other countrys' credit rating after the crash and since? And they don't have the uncertainty of Brexit.


Labour never lost it after the crash. It was was due to the tories fiscally illiterate austerity that first got us downgraded. People somehow believe the tories own spin that the economy is safe in their hands lol

2010: "We will maintain Britain's AAA credit rating." - George Osborne
2013: Moody's downgrade UK to AA1
2017: Moody's downgrade UK to AA2


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Most people vote based on a few things that interest or bother them I'd guess. No one can know everything about everything. So if you expect voters to know about everything they're voting for, may as well do away with it altogether.


I'd love to know what few things? We knew brexit was likely to make the majority of us poorer, we knew it was going to be harder to tackle climate change, was going to be worse for our already crippled NHS, put our environment in peril, would give rise to hate crimes, limit opportunities - particularly of the younger generation. All this we were warned about & project fear is becoming reality. Of course people can't know everything, we were very badly informed on this massive & complex issue, that's why experts should have been heeded imo.

As David Attenborough said:
_What we mean by parliamentary democracy is surely that we find someone we respect who we think is probably wiser than we are, who is prepared to take the responsibility of pondering difficult things and then trust him - or her - to vote on our behalf,"_.

He said he was concerned by Michael Gove's EU referendum claims that the British people have had enough of experts_. "That's why politicians getting up and saying, 'We've had enough of experts' is so catastrophic," _he added.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> What word are people going to use when there is an actual disaster?
> 
> As no one in the uk was asked to vote for Donald Trump, proclaiming that people viewed him as a shining white knight of Brexit undermines anything else they say. I wasn't at the meeting between May and Trump, so I have no idea whether she grovelled at his feet like grima wormtongue to Theoden king.
> 
> Trump said 'America First' as his main campaign message. Who on Earth thought someone like him would save the Uk, not that it needs saving. I presume the Brits will stop buying 747s, or whatever plane the Americans are selling atm.


Some brexiteers on this forum were rooting for Trump & keen for us to strike up a trade deal with the USA. Two of them have even liked your post DUP, Trump, Erdogan, Saudi regime - who wont May(& her cabinet) cosy up to to cling to power? Have you ever heard her come out & strongly condemn any of them?

Doesn't this fill you with shame, Elles?











https://www.channel4.com/news/defence-fair-sparks-questions-about-uk-arms-exports

It is, according to the International Trade Secretary, *a cause for celebration that Britain exports* *weapons around the world*. *Liam Fox* made his remarks on the opening day of one of the world's biggest arms exhibitions, hosted here in the UK


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yes I know.. you voted for what you don't know.
> 
> Yet you have both stated you don't know what was involved. It's only simple if you don't look at and accept the facts and reality. You've shown you have no idea therefore no appreciation of how "simple" it will be. Jumping off a cliff is simple and you go splat at the bottom, building a path down the cliff is harder.


Still out.
Still want to leave


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Labour never lost it after the crash. It was was due to the tories fiscally illiterate austerity that first got us downgraded. People somehow believe the tories own spin that the economy is safe in their hands lol
> 
> 2010: "We will maintain Britain's AAA credit rating." - George Osborne
> 2013: Moody's downgrade UK to AA1
> 2017: Moody's downgrade UK to AA2


Actually you're wrong.

The crash happened during Labours days in power. The shock from the crash set in after Labour left power. Labour left the country in a right mess if you remember with there spend, spend, spend policy.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> Actually you're wrong.
> 
> The crash happened during Labours days in power. The shock from the crash set in after Labour left power. Labour left the country in a right mess if you remember.


And after how many years of line his pockets Blair  B**st*rd saw it coming and ran


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Actually you're wrong.
> 
> The crash happened during Labours days in power. The shock from the crash set in after Labour left power. Labour left the country in a right mess if you remember with there spend, spend, spend policy.


OMG this is like ground hog day:Hilarious

Go on then lets see you back up your claim with references 

/


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> And after how many years of line his pockets Blair  B**st*rd saw it coming and ran


References please


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> Yes I know.. you voted for what you don't know.


You don't know what remaining in the EU would mean either. Although Mr Juncker is making it quite clear it's on it's way to the EU having tighter control over it's members. The uncertainty of the EU is probably greater at this moment in time than the UK's, even more so when we make a success of it and other EU countries start leaving.

I can see why you are so worried. Whereas I look forward to our bright new future, you enjoy yours stuck in a inward looking outdated experiment.


----------



## rona

Then there was Gordons Prudence 

Is that another name for Austerity?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> References please


Gordon Brown.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> If it is ground hog day. Why are you going around in circles on something that has already been discussed?
> 
> I forgot remainers like going around in circles and making themselves dizzy.


Because I've already debunked the lies about labour & the economy a hundred times on here


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Gordon Brown.




I mean credible references - like the one Dr Pepper provided


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Because I've already debunked the lies about labour & the economy a hundred times on here


Well why go on and on about it then?

We heard your opinion, doesn't mean we have to agree.

No need to continue repeating yourself over and over or spinning yourself around in circles.


----------



## rona

Didn't Mr Corbyn surround himself with adoring cult of Momentum yesterday when he gave his speech?

Did he not say that he wanted those that adored him at the front to be witnessed by tv audiences? 

Isn't that a little worrying?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I mean credible references - like the one Dr Pepper provided


He is a credible Reference.
GORDON BROWN.
He was chancellor when Labour was in power and then squatter in number 10 (never voted in as PM).


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Didn't Mr Corbyn surround himself with adoring cult of Momentum yesterday when he gave his speech?
> 
> Did he not say that he wanted those that adored him at the front to be witnessed by tv audiences?
> 
> Isn't that a little worrying?


Very worrying.

Corbyn has become a cult figure.

I laughed at there conference as it showed how disorganised Labour is and they want to spend, spend, spend without justifying were the money is coming from.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> Very worrying.
> 
> Corbyn has become a cult figure.
> 
> I laughed at there conference as it showed how disorganised Labour is and they want to spend, spend, spend without justifying were the money is coming from.


I like Corbyn's ideals. I don't agree with how he intends to implement.

I do think the Torys have gone too far and the ultra rich aren't contributing their fair share, but shudder at the thought of a Corbyn government


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well why go on and on about it then?
> 
> We heard your opinion, doesn't mean we have to agree.
> 
> No need to continue repeating yourself over and over or spinning yourself around in circles.


We can have our own opinions but we cant have our own facts  - & you were just peddling the right wing lie about labour & the economy so I pulled you up on it.



stockwellcat. said:


> He is a credible Reference.
> GORDON BROWN.
> He was chancellor when Labour was in power and then squatter in number 10 (never voted in as PM).


GORDON BROWN is not a reference, provide me with a link that backs up your assertion SWC.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> I like Corbyn's ideals. I don't agree with how he intends to implement.
> 
> I do think the Torys have gone too far and the ultra rich aren't contributing their fair share, but shudder at the thought of a Corbyn government


I think the Tories have gone to far with cuts and the rich not contributing there fair share to things. With Corbyn in charge of Labour I dred the thought of him or his shadow cabinet being in power. So for me at the moment if there was an election tomorrow I would abstain from voting.

Regarding Brexit: Theresa May is still the most popular to lead the UK out of the EU. I wouldn't trust Corbyn's shadow cabinet with it at all.

Do I think there should be a change of leadership in the Tory party, yes. I believe a hard Brexitier should be doing the negotiations.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We can have our own opinions but we cant have our own facts  - & you were just peddling the right wing lie about labour & the economy so I pulled you up on it.
> 
> GORDON BROWN is not a reference, provide me with a link that backs up your assertion SWC.


No because you're dancing around in circles. This has already been discussed and I am not discussing it again with you or anyone else. You wouldn't accept the answers then, so why bother discussing it again?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I like Corbyn's ideals. I don't agree with how he intends to implement.
> 
> I do think the Torys have gone too far and the ultra rich aren't contributing their fair share, but shudder at the thought of a Corbyn government


Well lets keep going down the path to destruction then. No nhs, fracking, climate change inaction, public services decimated, economy tanking. This country has never been in such a state, the tories have turned us into a laughing stock!. Whe even the neutral Swiss are laughing at us you know things are bad.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> No because you're dancing around in circles. This has already been discussed and I am not discussing it again with you or anyone else. You wouldn't accept the answers then, so why bother discussing it again?


Because you were perpetuating the lie.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Because you were perpetuating the lie.


No.

Look give it a break. I know you love dancing around in circles. Why spew up something that has already been discussed? You aren't achieving anything.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> No.
> 
> Look give it a break. I know you love dancing around in circles. Why spew up something that has already been discussed? You aren't achieving anything.


*David Attenborough*: Brexiteers "probably don't understand" facts


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> Regarding Brexit: Theresa May is still the most popular to lead the UK out of the EU.


I think Theresa has an old fashioned sense of duty. Lets face it, if she'd bailed under pressure we would have been in a far worse state or god forbid, a Corbyn government


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *David Attenborough*: Brexiteers "probably don't understand" facts


He can say what he wants.

You don't need to understand so called facts if you had already made up your mind.

So what's your opinion @noushka05 as you keep telling us other peoples opinions.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Regarding Brexit: Theresa May is still the most popular to lead the UK out of the EU. .


With hardened Brexiteers that is, not with the general public.

You forget 48% who were eligible to vote don't want to leave the EU.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> He can say what he wants.
> 
> You don't need to understand facts if you had already made up your mind.
> 
> So what's your opinion @noushka05 as you keep telling us other peoples opinions.


I form my opinions by looking at the evidence & the facts & by listening to those who are way better informed than any of us are.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I think Theresa has an old fashioned sense of duty. Lets face it, if she'd bailed under pressure we would have been in a far worse state or god forbid, a Corbyn government


More tory austerity - "_things can only get better":Singing_


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *I form my opinions* by looking at the evidence & the facts & by listening to those who are way better informed than any of us are.


No you don't. You just post what others have to day. I have never once seen something worth reading, that being your own opinion. Instead I have to endure trying to get past large posts of other peoples opinion you choose to post. That is far from having your own opinion.


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> I form my opinions by looking at the evidence & the facts & by listening to those who are way better informed than any of us are.


Bui you don't form your own opinions do you

You keep repeating other peoples over and over again without an original thought of your own


----------



## noushka05

Mike Galsworthy founder of Scientists 4 EU.

*Mike Galsworthy*‏@*mikegalsworthy* 9h9 hours ago

_I just listened to Corbyn's full speech. On Brexit... it was good. I was impressed_.

(his summary is on this link for anyone interested - he's an academic so it probably wont interest hard liners )
https://www.pscp.tv/mikegalsworthy/1RDGlmgPkdNJL?t=5s

,


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *Mike Galsworthy founder of Scientists 4 EU.*
> 
> *Mike Galsworthy*‏@*mikegalsworthy* 9h9 hours ago
> 
> _I just listened to Corbyn's full speech. On Brexit... it was good. I was impressed_.
> 
> (his summary is on this link for anyone interested - he's an academic so it probably wont interest hard liners )
> https://www.pscp.tv/mikegalsworthy/1RDGlmgPkdNJL?t=5s
> 
> ,


But that isn't your opinion @noushka05.

He can claim to be who he wants to as well. It is the internet after all.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Bui you don't form your own opinions do you
> 
> You keep repeating other peoples over and over again without an original thought of your own


Of course I do - everyone does lol Mine are shaped by my own values, on evidence & on the consensual position of experts. What are yours based on? - you surely cant _just know_ your opinion is right on a complex issue like brexit?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> But that isn't your opinion @noushka05.
> 
> He can claim to be who he wants to as well. It is the internet after all.


I respect the opinion of trusted academics, don't you?


----------



## rona

Der Bund a liberal rag and article written by a German reporter Christian Zaschke a reporter who always seems to take joy out of taking the piss out of the UK. Just look at his articles reaching back years...........................


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> What are yours based on?


My vote was based the fact that I said I would always vote that way. Simply it means I had already made my mind up a long, long time ago.

It's funny because there was no so called experts about before the referendum and all of a sudden there was loads of so called self proclaimed experts after the referendum. Economists by the way were the people you were saying were experts before the referendum, yet throughout history economists have been natoriously wrong with there predictions.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I respect the opinion of trusted academics, don't you?


Its the internet @noushka05 I can say I am a time lord and can see the future (but I am not). Oh thats what these people say they can do. What I am saying is, who is he? How do you know if he is real or someone posing as him (like a remainer annoyed because of the referendum results) pretending he's him. Theres millions of fake profiles online @noushka05.

They only spout predictions out which haven't exactly been right so far.


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> Of course I do - everyone does lol Mine are shaped by my own values, on evidence & on the consensual position of experts. What are yours based on? - you surely cant _just know_ your opinion is right on a complex issue like brexit?


Well, you don't express your opinions
You just the type of person the EU wants, they say jump and you jump, your "experts" say we are going to the dogs and you agree

No, I don.t know my opinion is right any more than you do
I trust the free thinking people to put this country back on it's feet from being under the heel of the EU


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Most people vote based on a few things that interest or bother them I'd guess. No one can know everything about everything. So if you expect voters to know about everything they're voting for, may as well do away with it altogether.


Absolutely right, and there continue to be posts in this thread proving exactly that, e.g. suggesting that we should just leave the EU now, with absolutely zero appreciation of the consequences, or even the facts behind the reason they give for doing so.

Which shows just how ludicrous the idea of the referendum was in the first place. Too many people voted on perceptions gained from headlines and soundbites without doing any research into the actual truth. Even now people refer to the 'corrupt EU' with no evidence for the accusation; I mentioned passporting recently and someone thought it was about passport documents.

But no-one can know everything about everything, as you say. It is the job of those whom we elect to Parliament to do the research for us and reach an opinion as to what is best for their constituents. Which is why 75% of MPs were Remainers, and why the referendum should never have been held. You don't trust the future of generations to come to those who don't care about facts but just want to reinstate a past that never actually existed.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You don't need to understand so called facts if you had already made up your mind.


And there, I think, we have it in a nutshell.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> But that isn't your opinion @noushka05.
> 
> He can claim to be who he wants to as well. It is the internet after all.


He's somewhat bias I think 

http://www.scientistsforlabour.org.uk/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65&Itemid=133

*Patrons*
*Rt. Hon. Dr Gordon Brown*

*David Sainsbury, Lord Sainsbury of Turville


Mike Galsworthy (Science Policy Lead & Twitter Lead)
*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> And there, I think, we have it in a nutshell.


Yep.
If you have made your mind up you won't listen.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Der Bund a liberal rag and article written by a German reporter Christian Zaschke a reporter who always seems to take joy out of taking the piss out of the UK. Just look at his articles reaching back years...........................


Brexit has made us a global laughing stock - like Trump has made the USA. Fact.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> He's somewhat bias I think
> 
> http://www.scientistsforlabour.org.uk/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65&Itemid=133
> 
> *Patrons*
> *Rt. Hon. Dr Gordon Brown*
> 
> *David Sainsbury, Lord Sainsbury of Turville*
> 
> 
> *Mike Galsworthy (Science Policy Lead & Twitter Lead)*


And he's very honest. Not afraid to criticize Corbyn or labour


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> *David Attenborough*: Brexiteers "probably don't understand" facts


*Dr Pepper*: Remainers "probably don't understand facts"


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> And there, I think, we have it in a nutshell.


Touche


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Well, you don't express your opinions
> You just the type of person the EU wants, they say jump and you jump, your "experts" say we are going to the dogs and you agree
> 
> No, I don.t know my opinion is right any more than you do
> I trust the free thinking people to put this country back on it's feet from being under the heel of the EU


I am thinking for myself. I can see the people pushing for brexit are the worst of the worst & those against it are the most trusted in society. Derision of experts is a very dangerous path Bisbow. You don't think experts know better than we do?

Is it 'thinking' to fall for silly nationalistic slogans like 'taking our country back'? Or 'make America great' like Trump supporters fell for?

I don't want the UK to be an insular, inward looking country thanks. Nationalism is force for evil.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> *Dr Pepper*: Remainers "probably don't understand facts"


Oh Dr Pepper or David Attenborough? Tough one. Not! lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Oh Dr Pepper or David Attenborough? Tough one. Not! lol


*Dr Pepper* of course


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> Oh Dr Pepper or David Attenborough? Tough one. Not! lol


Why would you take the opinion of a naturalist who happens to be on TV as gospel? Does fame make his views any more valid than mine or anyone else you've not heard off?


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> Brexit has made us a global laughing stock - like Trump has made the USA. Fact.


Haha is this the definition of one of your facts?


----------



## Goblin

Dr Pepper said:


> Why would take the opinion of a naturalist who happens to be on TV as gospel? Does fame make his views any more valid than mine or anyone else you've not heard off?


He looks at facts and details. That makes his views more valid, not fame.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The reason why I said @Dr Pepper @noushka05 is because he/she has Dr in front of their username so must be an expert.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Goblin said:


> He looks at facts and details. That makes his views more valid, not fame.


No more than anyone else's . Now I respect his views and opinions on nature and everything related to nature. His opinions on the EU or why people voted for Brexit are no more valid than mine. Unless you are impressed by people who've been on the telly?


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> Is it 'thinking' to fall for silly nationalistic slogans like 'taking our country back'? Or 'make America great' like Trump supporters fell for?
> 
> I don't want the UK to be an insular, inward looking country thanks. Nationalism is force for evil.


But you are not, you swallow every thing your experts tell you like a black hole in space

Not experts are "experts", just want to make a name for them selves
We are not the worst of the worst,
We want a prosperous country without being held to account by people who think they know it all

I won't be around for the next few days so you can ignore this if you wish


----------



## Dr Pepper

stockwellcat. said:


> The reason why I said @Dr Pepper @noushka05 is because he/she has Dr in front of their username so must be an expert.


I've been interviewed on the telly twice and many more on the radio. Jesus I didn't realise what a expert I am. All I need to convince the remainers now is post on a Twitter account.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> I've been interviewed on the telly twice and many more on the radio. Jesus I didn't realise what a expert I am. All I need to convince the remainers now is post on a Twitter account.


Good luck :Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> But you are not, you swallow every thing your experts tell you like a black hole in space
> 
> Not experts are "experts", just want to make a name for them selves
> We are not the worst of the worst,
> We want a prosperous country without being held to account by people who think they know it all
> 
> I won't be around for the next few days so you can ignore this if you wish


So you are dismissing the consensual position of environmentalists, economists, scientists, NHS experts......

The hard right wing politicians, the far right, the billionaire tax dodging media barrons, Putin, Trump, Le Penn, Bannon the worst of the worst want us to leave the EU. We ignore this_ fact_ at our peril.

Wanting & wishing & believing don't mean a thing I'm afraid.


----------



## Elles

Yes, it was a global crash. The uk dealt with it and no bankers went hungry.

Corbyn's speeches remind me of the old school union guys and the fanaticism of his followers is of concern, but I don't think it will spread too much. His kind of socialism doesn't work.

I don't feel shame over the actions of others, or I'd never get up in the morning.

I listen and absorb, then make up my own mind. I've quite often gone against expert advice. How many people eat dairy because experts have been saying for years it's good for us, then it's not, then it is again? How many experts tell us we can't live on a vegan diet? How many tell us that we need to experiment on animals? As for horses, don't get me started on experts with horses.

Even you @noushka05 choose your experts.


----------



## Arnie83

The reason I would put considerable faith in the views of David Attenborough is that he is a scientist.

The scientific method is to study facts, and if they are found to contradict a belief, then it is the belief that is questioned and adjusted.

What I am seeing among a lot of people on here is that when facts contradict beliefs either the facts are ignored, or the supplier of the facts attacked, or irrelevant comments made in an apparent attempt to deflect attention from the facts, or, very often, no response whatsoever. The very last thing that seems to happen is to let the facts impact on the belief, whether that belief is that the EU is evil, corrupt, anti-UK etc. or whether leaving it will somehow make things better.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> So you are dismissing the consensual position of environmentalists, economists, scientists, NHS experts......
> 
> The hard right wing politicians, the far right, the billionaire tax dodging media barrons, Putin, Trump, Le Penn, Bannon the worst of the worst want us to leave the EU. We ignore this_ fact_ at our peril.
> 
> Wanting & wishing & believing don't mean a thing I'm afraid.


Yes they do (want us to leave). Your former list isn't ignoring your latter list. The latter list want to leave for all the wrong reasons, the former list need to make sure that we leave for the right reasons. The worst of the worst need to not have their wants, wishes and beliefs realised and there are people out there to try to stop them. The worst of the worst wanting something, doesn't make the something (Brexit) a bad thing.

Unfortunately at the moment there are few facts that stand up to scrutiny, because they are all based on future projections. No one has left the Eu before, no one knows for sure which way the Eu is heading and no one can predict the kind of government we'll have, or the major world powers will have in 5, 10, 15 years.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> The reason I would put considerable faith in the views of David Attenborough is that he is a scientist.
> 
> The scientific method is to study facts, and if they are found to contradict a belief, then it is the belief that is questioned and adjusted.
> 
> What I am seeing among a lot of people on here is that when facts contradict beliefs either the facts are ignored, or the supplier of the facts attacked, or irrelevant comments made in an apparent attempt to deflect attention from the facts, or, very often, no response whatsoever. The very last thing that seems to happen is to let the facts impact on the belief, whether that belief is that the EU is evil, corrupt, anti-UK etc. or whether leaving it will somehow make things better.


There you go, once again saying people with a degree are more qualified to comment than those without. A bit patronising.

As for Mr Attenborough what's his degree in, zoology or natural science or some such? Can't see how that would qualify anyone to have more than an opinion on Brexit. To be fair Mr James Dyson is far more qualified to comment on Brexit having vast experience actually trading within and outside the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair Mr James Dyson is far more qualified to comment on Brexit having vast experience actually trading within and outside the EU.


Well I want to be fair as well, Tim Martin is far more qualified to comment on Brexit to. He, if you don't know, is owner of JD Wetherspoon's and is also a Brexit Backing chairman.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dr Pepper said:


> A bit patronising.


Yes I to find some of these comments patronising. They make it sound like people cannot think for themselves or make there own decisions.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> There you go, once again saying people with a degree are more qualified to comment than those without. A bit patronising.
> 
> As for Mr Attenborough what's his degree in, zoology or natural science or some such? Can't see how that would qualify anyone to have more than an opinion on Brexit. To be fair Mr James Dyson is far more qualified to comment on Brexit having vast experience actually trading within and outside the EU.


I don't see anything about degrees or qualifications in my post.

What I said was that as a scientist Attenborough is someone follows the scientific method, which is to adjust hypotheses and beliefs according to facts. It is the method that I respect. What I don't respect is ignoring facts because they don't fit with pre-formed beliefs.

I presented evidence a day or so back that the EU was no more nor less corrupt than any other organisation, but I'm willing to bet that those on here who think it is will not have shifted one iota regarding that particular belief.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes I to find some of these comments patronising. They make it sound like people cannot think for themselves or make there own decisions.


What you read into my posts is entirely down to you, but I would ask you to read what they _actually_ say rather than taking offence at imagined implications.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> I don't see anything about degrees or qualifications in my post.
> 
> What I said was that as a scientist Attenborough is someone follows the scientific method, which is to adjust hypotheses and beliefs according to facts. It is the method that I respect. What I don't respect is ignoring facts because they don't fit with pre-formed beliefs.
> 
> I presented evidence a day or so back that the EU was no more nor less corrupt than any other organisation, but I'm willing to bet that those on here who think it is will not have shifted one iota regarding that particular belief.


Sorry my mistake. I thought you needed a degree to be a qualified scientist.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Haha is this the definition of one of your facts?


Yep, just like Trumps supporters. Incapable of facing the reality of what Trump has reduced the US to.



Dr Pepper said:


> I've been interviewed on the telly twice and many more on the radio. Jesus I didn't realise what a expert I am. All I need to convince the remainers now is post on a Twitter account.


:Hilarious my aching sides



Elles said:


> Yes they do (want us to leave). Your former list isn't ignoring your latter list. The latter list want to leave for all the wrong reasons, the former list need to make sure that we leave for the right reasons. The worst of the worst need to not have their wants, wishes and beliefs realised and there are people out there to try to stop them. The worst of the worst wanting something, doesn't make the something (Brexit) a bad thing.
> 
> Unfortunately at the moment there are few facts that stand up to scrutiny, because they are all based on future projections. No one has left the Eu before, no one knows for sure which way the Eu is heading and no one can predict the kind of government we'll have, or the major world powers will have in 5, 10, 15 years.


The worst of the worst are in government. They have just accomplished a power grab with their repeal bill. The EU may have been bad but I fail to see how things are going to get better now. Experts are far better informed to evaluate the pros & cons than any of us are Elles. I look at the _consensual _position of experts - not go cherry picking individual experts to fit my confirmation bias.

My mind wasn't made up prior to the referendum like so many brexiters minds appears to have been. I had no fixed opinion either way, I just wanted to ensure I used my vote wisely so I did my best to get as informed as I possibly could.


----------



## LinznMilly

Temporarily closing this for moderation...

:Locktopic


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> He is a credible Reference.
> GORDON BROWN.
> He was chancellor when Labour was in power and then squatter in number 10 (never voted in as PM).


Awh, the muppet who sold the gold


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> I think the Tories have gone to far with cuts and the rich not contributing there fair share to things. With Corbyn in charge of Labour I dred the thought of him or his shadow cabinet being in power. So for me at the moment if there was an election tomorrow I would abstain from voting.
> 
> Regarding Brexit: Theresa May is still the most popular to lead the UK out of the EU. I wouldn't trust Corbyn's shadow cabinet with it at all.
> 
> Do I think there should be a change of leadership in the Tory party, yes. I believe a hard Brexitier should be doing the negotiations.


Pretty much agree with yourself and Rona,
Fraid my opinion of TM is pretty low though! Think us brexiters have to agree our first suspicions that she was wrong for the job were in fact right.


----------



## 1290423

LinznMilly said:


> Temporarily closing this for moderation...
> 
> :Locktopic


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Pretty much agree with yourself and Rona,
> Fraid my opinion of TM is pretty low though! Think us brexiters have to agree our first suspicions that she was wrong for the job were in fact right.


My opinion of TM is very low. Yes I agree that she is/was the wrong person for the job.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I want to be fair as well, Tim Martin is far more qualified to comment on Brexit to. He, if you don't know, is owner of JD Wetherspoon's and is also a Brexit Backing chairman.


And the biggest seller of a particular EU coffee in the uk. he recently left us with little doubt that her could very easily replace that supply. Then there is the beer and wine


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Awh, the muppet who sold the gold


Yep. He spent that much he dipped into the gold reserves.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes I to find some of these comments patronising. They make it sound like people cannot think for themselves or make there own decisions.


Duh! Don't be silly we all know brexit voters read the sun


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Sorry my mistake. I thought you needed a degree to be a qualified scientist.


To be a 'qualified' scientist I guess you need something, but even us mere mortals can use the scientific method.


----------



## Elles

One thing I think we all agree on is that the Eu is expensive and less than perfect? As are most political ruling bodies. Proving it's only a little bit corrupt, rather than a lot corrupt is a bit pointless.

We can stay in and hope it changes for the better, or we can leave and hope we can change for the better.

As we're leaving, I'll go for the latter, which most remain experts are now doing too. For them it's spilt milk and no use dwelling on. Any linked debates prove that they're on the ball and trying to make sure of a good result. They have mostly stopped arguing to stay in the Eu now.

My mind was made up about the Eu before the referendum, but not about which way to vote.

So Attenborough being a qualified scientist is irrelevant as we can all use scientific methods. Why bring it up then? 

A little while back now I also linked an article by a scientist. Stephen Hawking. Although an advocate for Remain before the referendum, his opinion was a little different.


----------



## Arnie83

Since these two appear to be aimed at me ...



Elles said:


> Proving it's only a little bit corrupt, rather than a lot corrupt is a bit pointless.


Because someone was referring to "the corrupt EU". I presume they don't refer to "the corrupt UK" and were seeking to cast the EU in a disparaging light. The point of proving that the EU is no more corrupt than the UK (or any other body) is to challenge that propaganda.

I like facts, not unjustified falsehoods.



Elles said:


> So Attenborough being a qualified scientist is irrelevant as we can all use scientific methods. Why bring it up then?


Attenborough's comment on leavers were countered by someone else's contradictory comment on remainers, and the question was raised as to which might be considered the more trustworthy. While we _*can *_all use the scientific method, I would put more trust in Attenborough than the person to whom he was being compared because he actually _*does *_use the scientific method, whereas the other person clearly doesn't.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Arnie83 said:


> Since these two appear to be aimed at me ...
> 
> Because someone was referring to "the corrupt EU". I presume they don't refer to "the corrupt UK" and were seeking to cast the EU in a disparaging light. The point of proving that the EU is no more corrupt than the UK (or any other body) is to challenge that propaganda.
> 
> I like facts, not unjustified falsehoods.
> 
> Attenborough's comment on leavers were countered by someone else's contradictory comment on remainers, and the question was raised as to which might be considered the more trustworthy. While _*can *_all use the scientific method, I would put more trust in Attenborough than the person to whom he was being compared because he actually _*does *_use the scientific method, whereas the other person clearly doesn't.


Well frankly, now that we all agree the EU is corrupt (to whatever degree), surely we can agree it's advantageous to only have one corrupt governing body over us rather two?

You can't really make a scientific study into why people voted for Brexit, to many unknowns, variables and presumptions. You also can't make a scientific study into what the outcome of Brexit will be for the same reason. So no, Mr Attenborough's opinion is no more valid than mine.


----------



## Arnie83

Dr Pepper said:


> Well frankly, now that we all agree the EU is corrupt (to whatever degree), surely we can agree it's advantageous to only have one corrupt governing body over us rather two?
> 
> You can't really make a scientific study into why people voted for Brexit, to many unknowns, variables and presumptions. You also can't make a scientific study into what the outcome of Brexit will be for the same reason. So no, Mr Attenborough's opinion is no more valid than mine.


If you like.


----------



## Elles

They refer to the corrupt Tories, or ukip, not uk. 

The Eu would be a political body like the Tories.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> They refer to the corrupt Tories, or ukip, not uk.
> 
> The Eu would be a political body like the Tories.


Nothing could be as bad as the tories.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> One thing I think we all agree on is that the Eu is expensive and less than perfect? As are most political ruling bodies. Proving it's only a little bit corrupt, rather than a lot corrupt is a bit pointless.
> 
> We can stay in and hope it changes for the better, or we can leave and hope we can change for the better.
> 
> As we're leaving, I'll go for the latter, which most remain experts are now doing too. For them it's spilt milk and no use dwelling on. Any linked debates prove that they're on the ball and trying to make sure of a good result. They have mostly stopped arguing to stay in the Eu now.
> 
> My mind was made up about the Eu before the referendum, but not about which way to vote.
> 
> So Attenborough being a qualified scientist is irrelevant as we can all use scientific methods. Why bring it up then?
> 
> A little while back now I also linked an article by a scientist. Stephen Hawking. Although an advocate for Remain before the referendum, his opinion was a little different.


The EU isn't expensive considering what we get out of it - but leaving it will be :Jawdrop.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> The EU isn't expensive considering what we get out of it - but leaving it will be :Jawdrop.


I suspect this one might be a little misleading. Would I be right in thinking that the 4,200 is not a cost as per something we have to pay, but rather as an amount by which our income will be lower than it would have been had we stayed in after a certain period post-Brexit?

Doesn't change the fact that the EU is very good value for money - hence the vast majority of the business world (by employee numbers) being in favour of remaining - but it is our future rather than current prosperity which will be lowered. (Along with those of the next generation, who will see their livelihoods constrained more than ours.)


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect this one might be a little misleading. Would I be right in thinking that the 4,200 is not a cost as per something we have to pay, but rather as an amount by which our income will be lower than it would have been had we stayed in after a certain period post-Brexit?
> 
> Doesn't change the fact that the EU is very good value for money - hence the vast majority of the business world (by employee numbers) being in favour of remaining - but it is our future rather than current prosperity which will be lowered. (Along with those of the next generation, who will see their livelihoods constrained more than ours.)


Yes its the GDP per household I believe, Arnie. (it could be as much as £6,400)

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit02.pdf


----------



## noushka05

Oh & we can add another £800 million on to our brexit bill:Jawdrop-
*
HMRC chief warns post-Brexit border and tax checks 'could cost up to £800m'*

Jon Thompson told Treasury select committee adopting Singapore-style system could cost between £500m and £800m and take seven years to implement

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...checks-could-cost-up-to-800m?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## noushka05

Don't know how accurate this is but....


----------



## noushka05

Looking very bleak for some farmers (& food prices)

*UK farmers are setting up businesses in Poland ahead of Brexit*
UK farmers consider moving to mainland Europe as some warn the price of fruits could rise by almost 50 per cent

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...rn-europe-union-migrant-workers-a7860456.html


----------



## Elles

That is how it should have been. Instead of businesses staying put and importing millions of workers, stretching the infrastructure and splitting families, businesses setting up where the workers are. Advantageous to businesses, the Eu, the residents, infrastructure, economies and everyone generally. It took Brexit to force it.


----------



## Elles

When have we said we're adopting a Singapore style system? Mind you, we could learn a lot from Singapore. There'd be no chewing gum on the pavements and we could copy their gardens by the bay techniques.


----------



## samuelsmiles

What a great impassioned speech from a veteran Brexiteer - I love the confidence in his own country of this man. I'm lucky to live in an area near an old airport and frequently have Spitfires flying overhead. It never fails to make the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.


----------



## KittenKong

If the UK looked towards other countries in the EU like Germany and outside like Japan for inspiration it might still have its own car industry for one thing.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear, Brexiteers won't like this!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...stoms-union-european-parliament-a7972596.html


----------



## Elles

David Davis suggested a vote on reunification, then Ireland could stay in the Eu as a whole a while back. If the Irish want reunification our government is obliged to give them it. 

Northern Ireland staying in the single market and a border in the Irish Sea was talked about yonks ago, wasn't it? As one of the possible options. I thought the Eu had dismissed it.


----------



## 1290423

KittenKong said:


> If the UK looked towards other countries in the EU like Germany and outside like Japan for inspiration it might still have its own car industry for one thing.


You are joking! Right? Can you remind me apart from falsifing emissions what exactly eu cars a e doing towards emmissions? And you clever folk out there please forgive me if I've got this all wrong but isn't it the Japanese working more towards electric cars


----------



## Elles

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2017/06/uk-a...lion-marking-seventh-consecutive-year-growth/

Dyson are investing a couple of billion into developing an electric car too.


----------



## KittenKong

DT said:


> You are joking! Right? Can you remind me apart from falsifing emissions what exactly eu cars a e doing towards emmissions? And you clever folk out there please forgive me if I've got this all wrong but isn't it the Japanese working more towards electric cars


No I'm not joking. They are far more advanced in other countries, as you say Japan are working on technology for the 21st century. The UK no longer produces their own cars, eg your Rovers, Austin's and Allegros.

The emissions fiasco was not the fault of the EU but the car company in question.


Elles said:


> https://www.smmt.co.uk/2017/06/uk-a...lion-marking-seventh-consecutive-year-growth/
> 
> Dyson are investing a couple of billion into developing an electric car too.


What's that got to do with Brexit? I take it production will be in China?


----------



## Elles

It was in response to the post about Britain not having a car industry. The link was to information on the uk car industry. 

The Dyson sentence was separate. He's had 400 engineers in Wiltshire working on it apparently, but no doubt the car won't be manufactured in the uk. 

Germany and Japan don't do all of their manufacturing and assembly in their own countries either.

The uk still make cars. Jaguar Land Rover expect electric versions of their cars to be on the market within 3 years. Even the Germans couldn't save the old inefficient car industry in this country and that has nothing to do with Germany, Japan, or Brexit. There has been a global downturn recently in the automotive industry, Britain are still doing ok.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The uk still make cars. Jaguar Land Rover expect electric versions of their cars to be on the market within 3 years.


Aren't they owed by India's Tata Motors just as the modern Mini is BMW?


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...erial-code-event-foreign-office-a7972676.html


----------



## LinznMilly

Can we keep things civil, please? Otherwise this mammoth thread will be locked for good.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles said:


> What a great impassioned speech from a veteran Brexiteer - I love the confidence in his own country of this man. I'm lucky to live in an area near an old airport and frequently have Spitfires flying overhead. It never fails to make the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.


I probably wouldn't have chosen to join the EU at the time, but the more research I do the more I realise how much we (&the environment)benefit by being part of it. So the point remains what exactly do we stand to gain from leaving Samualsmiles?

Do you honestly think we'll be better off now?

Fox meets US thinktanks AEI and Heritage again. We've taken back control - for them to give it to US corporations https://www.desmog.uk/2017/09/28/br...ate-denial-think-tanks-post-election-trip-u-s









.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> That is how it should have been. Instead of businesses staying put and importing millions of workers, stretching the infrastructure and splitting families, businesses setting up where the workers are. Advantageous to businesses, the Eu, the residents, infrastructure, economies and everyone generally. It took Brexit to force it.


I love how you spin a negative into something positive:Hilarious You should be on this governments payroll

Did you read the whole article though, Elles?

_Not all farmers are capable of going across the water to mainland Europe," said Laurence Olins, chairman of British Summer Fruits, a trade body. "If there is no labour, most of the businesses will close."

British Summer Fruits says that if a significant number of farmers relocate outside the UK to ensure access to labour, British consumers will have to pay more for foreign fruit.

The cost of strawberries and raspberries could jump by 37 and 50 per cent respectively, the group said.

"Generally, food is quite cheap anyway if you looked at people's percentage spend compared to other parts of the world," Ottewell said. "I think the British public have to expect food cost rises in the next few years_


----------



## noushka05

LinznMilly said:


> Can we keep things civil, please? Otherwise this mammoth thread will be locked for good.


Considering the topic I thought we'd all behaved pretty good Linz


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear, Brexiteers won't like this!
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...stoms-union-european-parliament-a7972596.html
> View attachment 327037


They'd have to rejoin the republic of Ireland for this to be workable. Can I just point out there is no appetite in Northern Ireland for a border poll (this is the poll on reunification). Only Northern Ireland can have this poll not the Republic. So the Republic of Ireland are keen on reunification the North isn't. This would be the only way Northern Ireland could stay in the Single Market.

I noticed that the attention has moved from Scotland to Northern Ireland.


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Well frankly, now that we all agree the EU is corrupt (to whatever degree), surely we can agree it's advantageous to only have one corrupt governing body over us rather two?
> 
> .


The fact remains, the EU protected us & our environment from our own government. Why do you think the hard right are desperate for us to leave?

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2017/09/22/brexit-eu-environment-law-polluters-jolyon-maugham/


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> They'd have to rejoin the republic of Ireland for this to be workable. Can I just point out there is no appetite in Northern Ireland for a border poll (this is the poll on reunification). Only Northern Ireland can have this poll not the Republic. So the Republic of Ireland are keen on reunification the North isn't. This would be the only way Northern Ireland could stay in the Single Market.
> 
> I noticed that the attention has moved from Scotland to Northern Ireland.


I don't know if the large type was aimed at myself or the media reports?

A scenario that could happen if NI remain in the single market and customs union, what would stop Scotland and Gibraltar who also decisively voted to remain in the EU not asking for something similar?

If it's good enough for NI, why not Gibraltar and Scotland too? They can't be one rule for one and not the other.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> That is how it should have been. Instead of businesses staying put and importing millions of workers, stretching the infrastructure and splitting families, businesses setting up where the workers are. Advantageous to businesses, the Eu, the residents, infrastructure, economies and everyone generally. It took Brexit to force it.


I think that was always the intention, and is, in fact, the way it was beginning to go. A decade ago, though, the immediate markets for goods, and the much higher wages were in the UK, which attracted workers here. Very recently, the economies of countries like e.g. Poland, picked up and are now doing better than ours. Given the continued regional assistance from EU investment as well, the tide of migrant workers has been changing. Hopefully in another decade or so - other things being equal (which they won't of course!) - the rising GDP in these countries will see a convergence of economic performance, allowing for a much smoother ride as the euro economies converge. It would, I think, have happened a lot sooner had the global crash (which people seem to think was caused single handedly by Gordon Brown!) not intervened for nearly 10 years.

I like the idea that Brexit might actually hasten the consolidation and growth of the EU. Not suggesting you implied it in your post, but I doubt that any Leaver voted in order to strengthen the EU economies at the expense of the UK's, which is what will happen. But then that's for our children's generation to live with.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Jon Thompson told Treasury select committee adopting Singapore-style system could cost between £500m and £800m and *take seven years to implement*


This is the bit that worries me more, and I doubt that it's an exaggeration. Given the public sector's performance with the implementation of technology it's going to be seven years of absolute chaos, (unless the transition period is lengthened!)


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I don't know if the large type was aimed at myself or the media reports?


No it was not aimed at you directly. I don't know what happened there so apologise.


> A scenario that could happen if NI remain in the single market and customs union, what would stop Scotland and Gibraltar who also decisively voted to remain in the EU not asking for something similar?


The EU have already said no special deals for Scotland if you remember back a few months ago.


> If it's good enough for NI, why not Gibraltar and Scotland too? *They can't be one rule for one and not the other.*


But there is. This is all to do with the Good Friday peace agreement and nothing else in Northern Ireland and Ireland. I think it states that if there was any significant change to Northern Ireland's status they can have a border poll. But as stated previously there is no appetite for this at the moment plus there is no devolved power sharing Government either. Only a Northern Irish Devolved Government can request a border poll from Westminster, there isn't one in office currently which leaves Northern Ireland vulnerable to having Westminster take back direct rule as there has been no Devolved Government in power in Northern Ireland since January 2017 when it collapsed.

The EU answered Sturgeon's call for independence by saying they'd have to reapply to join the EU if they got Independance and that is why that idea fell against the roadside. They also said there would be no special deals for Scotland.

Ireland is a totally different situation and scenario to Scotland and Gibraltar.


----------



## LinznMilly

noushka05 said:


> Considering the topic I thought we'd all behaved pretty good Linz


Most have been, but I've noticed personal attacks, insults, etc, starting to creep in. Posts have been edited and/or deleted - on both sides of the debate.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No it was not aimed at you directly. I don't know what happened there so apologise.
> The EU have already said no special deals for Scotland if you remember back a few months ago.
> But there is. This is all to do with the Good Friday peace agreement and nothing else in Northern Ireland and Ireland. I think it states that if there was any significant change to Northern Ireland's status they can have a border poll. But as stated previously there is no appetite for this at the moment plus there is no devolved power sharing Government either. Only a Northern Irish Devolved Government can request a border poll from Westminster, there isn't one in office currently which leaves Northern Ireland vulnerable to having Westminster take back direct rule as there has been no Devolved Government in power in Northern Ireland since January 2017 when it collapsed.
> 
> The EU answered Sturgeon's call for independence by saying they'd have to reapply to join the EU if they got Independance and that is why that idea fell against the roadside.
> 
> Ireland is a totally different situation and scenario to Scotland and Gibraltar.


Hmmm....Yes perhaps but I'm sure Scotland and Gibraltar would argue that with the UK government AND the EU if NI ends up being given special status? I can only see existing splits and divisions extending further.

I'm sure if direct rule from Westminster results a hard border between NI and the ROI looks inevitable.

I wouldn't put it past this government to suggest the EU pay for it in much the same way Trump insists on Mexico paying for HIS wall!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Hmmm....Yes perhaps but I'm sure Scotland and Gibraltar would argue that with the UK government AND the EU if NI ends up being given special status? I can only see existing splits and divisions extending further.
> 
> I'm sure if direct rule from Westminster results a hard border between NI and the ROI looks inevitable.
> 
> Wouldn't direct rule seriously affect the future of the Good Friday agreement, especially with May's DUP alliance? It could all change.
> 
> I wouldn't put it past this government to suggest the EU pay for it in much the same way Trump insists on Mexico paying for HIS wall!


But Northern Ireland wouldn't be getting special status as you put it. It is written in the Good Friday Peace Agreement about significant changes resulting in a Border Poll. Only a Northern Irish Devolved Government can request a Border Poll but there isn't one at the moment.

This is what the EU are working with at the moment is the Good Friday Agreement.

So no special status there.

Regarding Scotland the EU responded to there request for special treatment during the EU negotiations and I think they even voted on it in the EU Parliment and the result was no.

Again there is no special treatment with Northern Ireland it is to do with the Good Friday Peace Agreement which the EU said must be respected.


----------



## noushka05

LinznMilly said:


> Most have been, but I've noticed personal attacks, insults, etc, starting to creep in. Posts have been edited and/or deleted - on both sides of the debate.


I understand Linz, but for such a controversial topic I think we've all done rather well considering lol. Hunting threads have got much more heated, this one has been tame by comparison & if the thread does get closed another brexit thread is only going to be started, int it. I hope we will all try harder to be respectful now though:Bag.



stockwellcat. said:


> But Northern Ireland wouldn't be getting special status as you put it. It is written in the Good Friday Peace Agreement about significant changes resulting in a Border Poll. Only a Northern Irish Devolved Government can request a Border Poll but there isn't one at the moment.
> 
> This is what the EU are working with at the moment is the Good Friday Agreement.
> 
> So no special status there.
> 
> Regarding Scotland the EU responded to there request for special treatment during the EU negotiations and I think they even voted on it in the EU Parliment and the result was no.
> 
> Again there is no special treatment with Northern Ireland it is to do with the Good Friday Peace Agreement which the EU said must be respected.


This is a really interesting thread by the editor of LeaveHQ on the reality of what we're facing. That's the editor of _LEAVEHQ_. So someone who voted for brexit.

1. Let me spell this out. The EU polices its outer frontier. On Brexit, NI border becomes part of that frontier. We become a third country

2. We do not want a hard border. That means we request that the EU does not police its frontier

3. This is instigated by leaving the EU - this is at our request. It is we who do this to ourselves - moving outside the frontier

4. So we have to devise a model for NI governance that allows the EU to refrain from policing its border

5. If we choose to diverge from existing regulatory regime and allow imports at differing standards then EU border is compromised.

6. EU cannot make exceptions to its third country controls - they are uniform throughout, so it must police the border.

7. So if the border is to stay unpoliced we need to agree to match regulatory regimes and have a means of controlled consultative divergence

8. So we have to propose those systems. We have to propose something the EU can agree to so it does not have to enforce borders

9. Its not as simple as just leaving and agreeing not to have a border. The single market is a defensive system

10. If we are choosing to be outside of that system without agreement, therefore threatening its integrity, then border must be controlled.

11. So if we don't want that we have to spell out how *our* outer controls and trade deals do not threaten theirs

12. This must be agreed in advance and as the petitioner the onus is on us. We have to conform to EU stipulations & they cannot bend to UK.

13. It is petulant to suggest that we be able to do exactly as we please and it being EU's decision to enforce its border

14. EU cannot be expected to re-engineer its third country controls for the sole benefit of UK or turn a blind eye to UK divergence

15. If we choose not to have a consultative system, then a border is a consequence of *our* choices

16. This is what constrains us post-Brexit. That nebulous absolute sovereignty was never achievable. Exists nowhere in the modern world

17. This is one of the trade offs we always had to examine and every decision has ramifications on the next

18. Complaining that the EU will police its borders if we choose the path of unilateralism is playing the victim

(this is great >>>)

19. This is what we now call a "Liliconian Inversion" - the belief that the world revolves around us and the EU has to bend to our whims.

20. When the thinking is that warped there is no possibility of explaining this reality to them, so really f*** this, I'm off to the seaside

21. If this thread isn't clear enough, just forget responding. You are never going to get it


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong I apologise. I have just seen breaking news within the last 38 minutes (at the time of posting this) that the EU parliment is set to propose if Northern Ireland should stay within the Customs Union and Single Market.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-border-guy-verhofstadt-single-market-customs-union-european-parliament-a7972596.html?amp


----------



## Calvine

_No starting new threads on the same topic after a thread has been closed - in effect reopening the thread._

@noushka05: if it gets closed there will be no new thread on Brexit/EU referendum. So no-one will be able to ''just open another one''. (It's a really good thing to familiarise yourself with forum rules.)


----------



## noushka05

Well as it wouldn't be another 'EU referendum' thread I think it would ok? There are SO many angles to brexit to talk about. Lots of hunting threads have been closed since I joined but thank goodness hunting threads aren't censored.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> if the thread does get closed another brexit thread is only going to be started, int it


I recall this started as an EU referendum thread and has now morphed into a Brexit thread (in case you missed it), with many complaining non-stop and ad nauseam that people did not know what they were voting for in the EU REFERENDUM. . . so it would appear that most people think they are one and the same thing AS BOTH ARE BEING DISCUSSED IN THE SAME THREAD. I cannot make it clearer than that.


----------



## LinznMilly

Calvine said:


> _No starting new threads on the same topic after a thread has been closed - in effect reopening the thread._
> 
> @noushka05: if it gets closed there will be no new thread on Brexit/EU referendum. So no-one will be able to ''just open another one''. (It's a really good thing to familiarise yourself with forum rules.)


You beat me to it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see the Government has responded to the latest petition (Setup on 12th September 2017 by Tom Holder) to ask for a second referendum.

*Government responded*

On 23 June 2016 the British people voted to leave the European Union. The UK Government is clear that it is now its duty to implement the will of the people and so there will be no second referendum.

The decision to hold the referendum was supported by a clear majority in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. On 23 June 2016 the British people voted to leave the European Union. The referendum was the largest democratic mandate in UK political history. In the 2017 General Election more than 85% of people voted for parties committed to respecting that result.

There must be no attempts to remain inside the European Union, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door, and no second referendum. The country voted to leave the European Union, and it is the duty of the Government to make sure we do just that. Rather than second guess the British people's decision to leave the European Union, the challenge now is to make a success of it - not just for those who voted leave but for every citizen of the United Kingdom, bringing together everyone in a balanced approach which respects the decision to leave the political structure of the EU but builds a strong relationship between Britain and the EU as neighbours, allies and partners.

Parliament passed an Act of Parliament with a clear majority giving the Prime Minister the power to trigger Article 50, which she did on 29 March in a letter to the President of the European Council, Donald Tusk. As a matter of firm policy, our notification will not be withdrawn - for the simple reason that people voted to leave, and the Government is determined to see through that instruction.

Both Houses of Parliament will have the opportunity to vote on the final agreement reached with the EU before it is concluded. This will be a meaningful vote which will give MPs the choice to either accept the final agreement or leave the EU with no agreement.

The people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union, but we are not leaving Europe. We want a deep and special partnership with the EU. We aim to get the right deal abroad and the right deal for people here at home. We will deliver a country that is stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before.

Department for Exiting the European Union


----------



## noushka05

LinznMilly said:


> You beat me to it.


So does this mean if a hunting thread gets closed we cant post another hunting thread Linz? Topics surrounding brexit are vast & varied with new information coming in on a daily basis - same with hunting issues. I really don't mean to be awkward but censorship is never a good idea imho. And what if someone deliberately sets about getting a thread closed? Is it fair to those who behave civilly? (& I know I'm no angel )


----------



## LinznMilly

noushka05 said:


> So does this mean if a hunting thread gets closed we cant post another hunting thread Linz? Topics surrounding brexit are vast & varied with new information coming in on a daily basis - same with hunting issues. I really don't mean to be awkward but censorship is never a good idea imho. And what if someone deliberately sets about getting a thread closed? Is it fair to those who behave civilly? (& I know I'm no angel )


The rules are clear - "no starting another thread about one which is closed, effectively reopening the thread". That includes this one.

This isn't the only thread relating to Brexit, either.


----------



## noushka05

LinznMilly said:


> The rules are clear - "no starting another thread about one which is closed, effectively reopening the thread". That includes this one.
> 
> This isn't the only thread relating to Brexit, either.


Oh I think I get you now. So if this thread is closed we cant start a thread about the closed thread but we could start a thread about some aspect or another of brexit? Is that want you mean? Or am I being thick? :Bag I just want to be clear so I know.


----------



## rona

https://www.wcl.org.uk/25-year-plan-for-nature.asp

"Link believes that to achieve its aspiration to pass on a better environment to the next generation, the Westminster Government must publish a plan that matches and builds on the environmental protections that were established through EU law, and features:

1. Legally binding targets to restore our environment, defending and extending environment laws

2. Investment to enrich our environment and landscape, with public payments directed towards delivering public benefits, complemented by private investment

3. Accountability for the state of nature-across Government, on land and at sea, at home and abroad"


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> https://www.wcl.org.uk/25-year-plan-for-nature.asp
> 
> "Link believes that to achieve its aspiration to pass on a better environment to the next generation, the Westminster Government must publish a plan that matches and builds on the environmental protections that were established through EU law, and features:
> 
> 1. Legally binding targets to restore our environment, defending and extending environment laws
> 
> 2. Investment to enrich our environment and landscape, with public payments directed towards delivering public benefits, complemented by private investment
> 
> 3. Accountability for the state of nature-across Government, on land and at sea, at home and abroad"


Realistically I can't see this happening under the tories. Can you though Rona? I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## noushka05

What a disgrace this shameless crook is.

Boris used public resources to launch a eurosceptic think tank at the Foreign Office, in breach of Ministerial Code

Boris Johnson faces calls to be sacked after 'breaking Ministerial Code' with hard Brexit event
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...erial-code-event-foreign-office-a7972676.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> What a disgrace this shameless crook is.
> 
> Boris used public resources to launch a eurosceptic think tank at the Foreign Office, in breach of Ministerial Code
> 
> Boris Johnson faces calls to be sacked after 'breaking Ministerial Code' with hard Brexit event
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...erial-code-event-foreign-office-a7972676.html


I wonder if he will be saked? If he is, who would replace him? Nigel Farage? (Oh I forgot he is retired as a politician and a UKipper )


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I wonder if he will be saked? If he is, who would replace him? Nigel Farage? (Oh I forgot he is retired as a politician and a UKipper )


Fingers crossed

Him:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Fingers crossed
> 
> Him:Hilarious


He said he is no longer fighting to remain in the EU recently 

How about Jacob Rees Mogg hard line brexitier


----------



## LinznMilly

noushka05 said:


> Oh I think I get you now. So if this thread is closed we cant start a thread about the closed thread but we could start a thread about some aspect or another of brexit? Is that want you mean? Or am I being thick? :Bag I just want to be clear so I know.


I suppose it depends on what is mentioned in the new thread. If it refers to anything already mentioned in this one, it will probably be closed. If it's something further down the line, which hasn't yet been mentioned, it may be OK.

To an extent, it'll be up to the Mods.


----------



## Elles

It's probably best to keep this thread. Otherwise we could end up with dozens of new political threads. Most petforumers happily ignore this one, they might not be impressed with a new thread opened every time there's a progress report on the news.  :Writing:Yawn


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Theresa May must walk away from Brexit talks by Christmas if trade negotiations are still on hold, Tory MPs say*

30 SEPTEMBER 2017 • 12:01 AM

Theresa May must walk away from EU talks at Christmas if Brussels fails to start negotiating a trade deal by then, Tory MPs have told her on the eve of the Conservative Party Conference.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rexit-talks-christmas-trade-negotiations/amp/


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *Theresa May must walk away from Brexit talks by Christmas if trade negotiations are still on hold, Tory MPs say*
> 
> 30 SEPTEMBER 2017 • 12:01 AM
> 
> Theresa May must walk away from EU talks at Christmas if Brussels fails to start negotiating a trade deal by then, Tory MPs have told her on the eve of the Conservative Party Conference.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rexit-talks-christmas-trade-negotiations/amp/


One of her many problems is that while the Leave Means Leave group of MPs is telling her that, another group of MPs is telling her something different. And Boris is telling the Sun what its readers want to hear as part of his leadership bid.

She has no influence within her own party, let alone in the EU negotiations.

But if this group want early talks on a future trade deal, they would do well to come up with a proposed figure for closing the accounts, and a sensible suggestion for the EU / UK border in Ireland. (I think citizens' rights are at least moving in the right direction.)


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I recall this started as an EU referendum thread and has now morphed into a Brexit thread (in case you missed it), with many complaining non-stop and ad nauseam that people did not know what they were voting for in the EU REFERENDUM. . . so it would appear that most people think they are one and the same thing AS BOTH ARE BEING DISCUSSED IN THE SAME THREAD. I cannot make it clearer than that.


Several attempts at post referendum Brexit threads were attempted, but all defaulted back to this original one.

As it is Sabre Roads own post referendum thread has reached 500 pages!

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36226&start=9980


----------



## KittenKong

Speaking of Sabre Roads I was alerted to this. Well worth a look.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41412561


----------



## KittenKong

http://news.sky.com/story/cbi-and-t...ck-on-eu-citizens-status-uncertainty-11057644


----------



## Satori

LinznMilly said:


> I suppose it depends on what is mentioned in the new thread. If it refers to anything already mentioned in this one, it will probably be closed.


Nice job for someone, reading every post in the new thread and then re-reading 13,000 posts in this one to see if there's a topic overlap. Hard to get volunteers I imagine. Even harder after we leave the EU.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I see the Government has responded to the latest petition (Setup on 12th September 2017 by Tom Holder) to ask for a second referendum.


No shock there is it.. Especially since people cannot hold the government to account. Love to know what the definition of Brexit success is.. damage limitation more like.


----------



## Honeys mum

Saw this on FB, just made me smile.


----------



## Arnie83

Big anti-Brexit bias alert; but I like this

It's an annotated analysis of the Govt's response to a petition calling for a referendum on the actual deal agreed with the EU. The so-called 'second referendum'.

Including ...

"Another referendum would not be a betrayal of the will of the people: it would be a way of confirming that the will of the people remains unchanged. If you really, genuinely respect the will of the people, you should be totally OK with asking the people what their will is.

"And this referendum, remember, wouldn't be a mere repeat of the 2016 one. This is not - as it's sometimes portrayed by the sort of gammon-faced men who shout "UNDEMOCRATIC!" whenever one suggests actually voting on something - a case of asking the same question again until you get the right answer. Rather, it would be about the specifics of an actual departure deal, and whether it is better than the status quo.

"So, I have to ask: why are Leavers so afraid of democracy?"​
The whole thing can be found via this link.

*https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/09/i-ve-annotated-government-s-response-petition-calling-another-brexit*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> No shock there is it.. Especially since people cannot hold the government to account. Love to know what the *definition of Brexit success is*.. damage limitation more like.


I can answer that.
Brexit Success is when the UK leaves the EU


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Big anti-Brexit bias alert; but I like this
> 
> It's an annotated analysis of the Govt's response to a petition calling for a referendum on the actual deal agreed with the EU. The so-called 'second referendum'.
> 
> Including ...
> 
> "Another referendum would not be a betrayal of the will of the people: it would be a way of confirming that the will of the people remains unchanged. If you really, genuinely respect the will of the people, you should be totally OK with asking the people what their will is.
> 
> "And this referendum, remember, wouldn't be a mere repeat of the 2016 one. This is not - as it's sometimes portrayed by the sort of gammon-faced men who shout "UNDEMOCRATIC!" whenever one suggests actually voting on something - a case of asking the same question again until you get the right answer. Rather, it would be about the specifics of an actual departure deal, and whether it is better than the status quo.
> 
> "So, I have to ask: why are Leavers so afraid of democracy?"​
> The whole thing can be found via this link.
> 
> *https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/09/i-ve-annotated-government-s-response-petition-calling-another-brexit*


I love the way the reporter says:


> If 111,507 people turned up at your door demanding you do something, you'd probably feel under quite some pressure to do it.


 Not really as it is only a small fraction of the amount of people that voted on Referendum Day. 

What the Government actually said is here: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200004

Yes it is classed as a second referendum to undermine what people voted for on the 23rd June 2016. But you may interpretate it differently.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes it is classed as a second referendum to undermine what people voted for on the 23rd June 2016. But you may interpretate it differently.


I would interpret it differently, since it isn't the same as the last referendum.

Don't you think that democracy is doing what the people want, rather than what they wanted two years ago?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I would interpret it differently, since it isn't the same as the last referendum.
> 
> Don't you think that democracy is doing what the people want, rather than what they wanted two years ago?


I think democracy is working just fine. The UK people instructed the Government on the 23rd June 2016 to do something by way of a referendum and the Government is doing what it has been instructed for a change.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> I think democracy is working just fine. The UK people instructed the Government on the 23rd June 2016 to do something by way of a referendum and the Government is doing what it has been instructed for a change.[/QUOTE
> 
> *The vote was to leave the EU, not destroy the country....*


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I think democracy is working just fine. The UK people instructed the Government on the 23rd June 2016 to do something by way of a referendum and the Government is doing what it has been instructed for a change.


Could it be that you think it is working just fine because you currently have the answer you want? If the will of the people is so important, should it not be the current will rather than a historic version?

Would democracy not be better served by asking them to confirm that what the government is doing is actually what they now want?

Are you, perhaps, simply nervous that they might not want Brexit any more now that we know there is no £350 million coming, nor 75 million Turks, nor 'swarms' of refugees etc.?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Could it be that you think it is working just fine because you currently have the answer you want? If the will of the people is so important, should it not be the current will rather than a historic version?
> 
> Would democracy not be better served by asking them to confirm that what the government is doing is actually what they now want?
> 
> Are you, perhaps, simply nervous that they might not want Brexit any more now that we know there is no £350 million coming, nor 75 million Turks, nor 'swarms' of refugees etc.?


None of the above.

I am over the moon with the Government's response to the never-ending requests for second referendums or other referendums relating to the EU Referendum. It's nice to know the Government is going to stand it's ground with Brexit.

Simply the UK public voted to leave the EU and that is what is going to happen. I am not nervous about anything. The Government have explained things in the latest response very well and couldn't have been clearer.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I would interpret it differently, since it isn't the same as the last referendum.
> 
> Don't you think that democracy is doing what the people want, rather than what they wanted two years ago?


So then perhaps we should have GEs every two years?
Not really practical , if it were 20 years on from the referendum , I'd agree to another one .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> if it were 20 years


Lets be fair. People waited 44 years for last years referendum so I'd say 44 years from now.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I am over the moon with the Government's response to the never-ending requests for second referendums or other referendums relating to the EU Referendum. It's nice to know the Government is going to stand it's ground with Brexit.
> 
> Simply the UK public voted to leave the EU and that is what is going to happen. I am not nervous about anything. The Government have explained things in the latest response very well and couldn't have been clearer.


So when you have admitted you had no idea what you were voting for in terms of repurcussions, when people do know they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Says it all about the leave mentality.. we won a non-binding referendum where people didn't know what they were voting for. Can't let public vote when they know what the facts are.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> So then perhaps we should have GEs every two years?
> Not really practical , if it were 20 years on from the referendum , I'd agree to another one .


I would agree with the logic were there not an obvious cut-off point for the EU membership which is not present in the GE cycle. We will leave the EU in less than two years, after which reapplication for membership is a whole new ball game.

It is transparently obvious why the leavers don't want a vote on the proposed deal with the EU 27. They are afraid that the slight majority they gained under patently false pretences would disappear were the people to be asked what they now thought. So asking the people must be avoided at all costs.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not nervous about anything.


So why not have a referendum on the actual deal? Let the people pass judgement on it. Democracy!

(See above for the answer.)


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So when you have admitted you had no idea what you were voting for in terms of repurcussions, when people do know they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Says it all about the leave mentality.. we won a non-binding referendum where people didn't know what they were voting for. Can't let public vote when they know what the facts are.


We are leaving aren't we. What was voted for is being honoured.

I notice TM is being pressured to have the UK quit the EU by Christmas if EU Leaders say no to any trade talks at the end of October.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So why not have a referendum on the actual deal? Let the people pass judgement on it. Democracy!
> 
> (See above for the answer.)


Because the Government said no and explained why it isn't going to happen. Read the explaination on the petition link. The explaination couldn't be any clearer.

Democracy is happening. The referendum result is being honoured.


----------



## rona

Honeys mum said:


> Saw this on FB, just made me smile.


That was very amusing


----------



## Elles

but we did know. We knew if we voted leave, we'd leave. When they give this choice of rejecting a deal, if we do will the alternative be staying in, or negotiating another deal? If the option is stay in, will it set out what the Eu is and plans to be?

Remain want another referendum, because they hope it will go the other way imo. All this talk about it being a different referendum is just a smoke screen.

I don't care if we do have another leave or Remain vote. I'll vote leave next time.

I did like that video. @Honeys mum :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Honeys mum said:


> Saw this on FB, just made me smile.


I liked the video to


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> So why not have a referendum on the actual deal? Let the people pass judgement on it. Democracy!


For GE substitue Referendum


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> but we did know.


Not according to the some of the people who liked your post. They've admitted they didn't know. You yourself have been unable to state the effects of leaving, which groups we are leaving such as euratom and those in the medical field etc. Without knowing the terms of "leaving", "leave" is simply a word with no meaning. Oh it sounds good but doesn't change the simple fact you still don't know as the government isn't releasing the information allowing the public to be informed. The only time people will be informed as to what "leave" means is at the end of negotiations if the government doesn't continue to hide bad news. Is that the future of the UK.. kept uninformed by the government and happy to be so?


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Not according to the some of the people who liked your post. They've admitted they didn't know. You yourself have been unable to state the effects of leaving, which groups we are leaving such as euratom and those in the medical field etc. Without knowing the terms of "leaving", "leave" is simply a word with no meaning. Oh it sounds good but doesn't change the simple fact you still don't know as the government isn't releasing the information allowing the public to be informed. The only time people will be informed as to what "leave" means is at the end of negotiations if the government doesn't continue to hide bad news. Is that the future of the UK.. kept uninformed by the government and happy to be so?


Given the choice between leaving a bit and staying in, I'll choose leave a bit. A later government can tweak it and take advantage of it later, if this one doesn't.

The effects of leaving will be different for different groups and different people. Whatever this government does with it, or the next. It's not black and white. We'll change, so will the Eu. It's fluid.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> *The effects of leaving will be different for different groups and different people*. Whatever this government does with it, or the next. It's not black and white. We'll change, so will the Eu. It's fluid.


They certainly will. The poor will get poorer, the rich will get richer, the workers will see their rights surreptitiously removed, the sick will wait longer for a lower standard of treatment and those born elsewhere will face overt pressure to leave.

UK industry will be mostly foreign owned, and government policy will have to take their requirements into account. Trade deals with other countries will be on worse terms than they are now, and will include relaxation of visa requirements. UK influence on global matters will dwindle further.

Pension age will increase further as the costs can no longer be covered by a growing workforce, and its real value will fall as the 'locks' are removed. Privatisation of health service provision will inevitably increase.

Environmental conditions will worsen as green policies are deemed to be holding the country back, and the big corporations will take advantage of the new opportunity before sufficient damage is caused to force their reintroduction.

Emigration of young Brits will increase as they react to having their European identity and opportunities taken from them by the ageing and the inward looking. The attempt to force nationalistic fervour on them will force them instead to feel less of an affinity towards a country that wants to return to a post-war insularity, reinforcing borders between nations, weakening the bonds between them, decreasing cooperation and increasing danger.

And the EU will be blamed for all of it.

Just my predictions.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Not according to the some of the people who liked your post. They've admitted they didn't know. You yourself have been unable to state the effects of leaving, which groups we are leaving such as euratom and those in the medical field etc. Without knowing the terms of "leaving", "leave" is simply a word with no meaning. Oh it sounds good but doesn't change the simple fact you still don't know as the government isn't releasing the information allowing the public to be informed. The only time people will be informed as to what "leave" means is at the end of negotiations if the government doesn't continue to hide bad news. Is that the future of the UK.. kept uninformed by the government and happy to be so?


Goblin. I voted leave because it was what I was always going to do. Leave means different things to different people so you are never going to get the answers you want.

If I had to vote again tomorrow I want to make it clear I would vote leave again.

Doesn't this tell you that I haven't changed my mind. I am not interested in so called facts from you and other remainers and self proclaimed experts. I am not interested anymore in the doom mongering, I am not interested in the scare tactics remainers use.

The Fact is now, the Government are honouring the leave vote simply because it would be wrong to undermine what people voted for on the 23rd June 2016. Remainers are trying to undermine what was voted for. Remainers are also trying to go against UK Democracy by asking Government to u-turn the referendum results. The UK Government have made themselves very clear in answering the recent petition.

I know you and the remainers on here do not like the result of the referendum and the fact that the UK is leaving the EU, but this is what is going to happen.

There is no one answer to all you questions that you repeat over and over again as every individual that voted leave had their own reason for doing so, so you are never going to hear what you want to hear.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Emigration of young Brits will increase as they react to having their European identity and opportunities taken from them by the ageing and the inward looking.


Comments like this annoy me because they are untrue because plenty of 18 to 25 year olds voted leave as well. It isn't just the ageing population that voted leave. So this statement is so untrue and false. Various young adults came forward and made it known they voted leave on the news on TV so this claim remainers are making is wrong and false.


----------



## JANICE199

*I haven't read the whole thread but here's my opinion.*
*The whole brexit thing has been a complete mess, thanks to our incompetent government. What they should have done is sort out all the if's and but's before they offered the vote. But once again, they mislead the people.*
*They are no further now in sorting the leave deal than they were before the vote.*
*Who in their right mind goes into such a big move without finding out all the facts first. Hell, i would give more thought into buying my next car.*
*I would welcome a new vote, BUT, only if and when we know what the deal is.*


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Comments like this annoy me because they are untrue because plenty of 18 to 25 year olds voted leave as well. It isn't just the ageing population that voted leave. So this statement is so untrue and false. Various young adults came forward and made it known they voted leave on the news on TV so this claim remainers are making is wrong and false.


I'm sorry if it annoys you.

The fact is that it took only 650,000 voting leave instead of remain to give the result we got. Of course not every older voter chose leave, nor every younger one for remain but the statistics clearly show that the older the voter the more likely it was for them to vote leave, so they will have contributed a higher proportion of the leave vote; more than enough to swing it to leave. (Especially after the 16-18 year olds were excluded after pressure from Tory Brexiteers.)

And I think it is almost tautological to say that the inward-looking, of whatever age, would predominantly have chosen the leave option.

I therefore stand by my comment.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The Fact is now, the Government are honouring the leave vote simply because it would be wrong to undermine what people voted for on the 23rd June 2016.


What if people have changed their minds? How can it be democratic, or even remotely sensible, to follow a course that the majority do not, in the light of real facts, now want?

If new facts come to light after a trial has condemned someone to jail, a new trial is rightly held. How can we ignore the facts that have been revealed since June 2016 and condemn the country to a sentence imposed on false evidence?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sorry if it annoys you.
> 
> The fact is that it took only 650,000 voting leave instead of remain to give the result we got. Of course not every older voter chose leave, nor every younger one for remain but the statistics clearly show that the older the voter the more likely it was for them to vote leave, so they will have contributed a higher proportion of the leave vote; more than enough to swing it to leave. (Especially after the 16-18 year olds were excluded after pressure from Tory Brexiteers.)
> 
> And I think it is almost tautological to say that the inward-looking, of whatever age, would predominantly have chosen the leave option.
> 
> I therefore stand by my comment.


16 and 17 year olds can register to vote but cannot vote until they are 18. That is the law in the UK. Check the links I posted a while back to the .gov website.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> What if people have changed their minds? How can it be democratic, or even remotely sensible, to follow a course that the majority do not, in the light of real facts, now want?
> 
> If new facts come to light after a trial has condemned someone to jail, a new trial is rightly held. How can we ignore the facts that have been revealed since June 2016 and condemn the country to a sentence imposed on false evidence?


So you are proposing a neverendum.

People where told over and over again this was a once in a generation referendum/vote.

It's no one elses fault that people didn't take it seriously on referendum day than the fault of those that decided to spoil their ballot sheets, voted leave because they thought it was a joke or voted leave because they thought leave would never win.

Why should a second referendum take place when the first one was a deciding factor and was repeatedly advertised as such on TV, in the papers on the news etc, etc. David Cameron even said the referendum results would be honoured, and finally people didn't take the first referendum seriously or didn't vote at all because they couldn't be bothered?


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> And I think it is almost tautological to say that the inward-looking, of whatever age, would predominantly have chosen the leave option.


I wasn't inward looking. I voted leave for future generations, as I'm sure did many older people. Hell, we didn't vote that way for ourselves, we won't be here.
In the same way as most voted Tory in the elections, we weren't hoodwinked by Corbyns promise of utopia, even though he's offering the earth to us oldies

The benefit of youth is that a lot of things seem black and white, they grab onto a cause and often fail to see the bigger picture. Just the nature of the beast, we were all there once, but many can now look back and smile at their young idealistic selves


----------



## LinznMilly

stockwellcat. said:


> So you are proposing a neverendum.
> 
> People where told over and over again this was a once in a generation referendum/vote.
> *
> It's no one elses fault that people didn't take it seriously on referendum day than the fault of those that decided to spoil their ballot sheets, voted leave because they thought it was a joke or voted leave because they thought leave would never win*.


That right there is a reason _for_ a 2nd referendum IMHO. OK, those such as yourself, who strongly believed (and _continue_ to believe) that leaving the EU is the best thing for this country, won't change their minds, and I wouldn't ask it of anyone ... but, those who did treat it as a joke, or did vote leave because they thought no one else would, otherwise just didn't take the referendum seriously, they, IMHO, should have rendered the vote null and void.



> Why should a second referendum take place when the first one was a deciding factor and was repeatedly advertised as such on TV, in the papers on the news etc, etc. David Cameron even said the referendum results would be honoured, and finally people didn't take the first referendum seriously or didn't vote at all?


You answered your own question above - because of the idiots who treated it as a joke and didn't take it seriously.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I wasn't inward looking. I voted leave for future generations, as I'm sure did many older people. Hell, we didn't vote that way for ourselves, we won't be here.
> In the same way as most voted Tory in the elections, we weren't hoodwinked by Corbyns promise of utopia, even though he's offering the earth to us oldies
> 
> The benefit of youth is that a lot of things seem black and white, they grab onto a cause and often fail to see the bigger picture. Just the nature of the beast, we were all there once, but many can now look back and smile at their young idealistic selves


I'm an oldie (69) and I did* not* vote leave and a certainly would* never* vote tory, nor would any of my family or friends.


----------



## Bisbow

Happy Paws said:


> I'm an oldie (69) and I did* not* vote leave and a certainly would* never* vote tory, nor would any of my family or friends.


I to am an oldie (76) and I did vote out and I did vote tory

Labour scares the wits out of me

As for my friends and family, I don't know, that is their choice not mine


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## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So you are proposing a neverendum.


Nope. Just one more, before we leave, now that there are actual facts to consider.



stockwellcat. said:


> Why should a second referendum take place when the first one was a deciding factor and was repeatedly advertised as such on TV, in the papers on the news etc, etc.


Because now there are actual facts to consider.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I wasn't inward looking. I voted leave for future generations, as I'm sure did many older people. Hell, we didn't vote that way for ourselves, we won't be here.
> In the same way as most voted Tory in the elections, we weren't hoodwinked by Corbyns promise of utopia, even though he's offering the earth to us oldies
> 
> The benefit of youth is that a lot of things seem black and white, they grab onto a cause and often fail to see the bigger picture. Just the nature of the beast, we were all there once, but many can now look back and smile at their young idealistic selves


I think you would be an exception rather than the norm.

I also think the world could do with a little more idealism. When it is replaced by cynicism or tired acceptance, the world becomes a sadder place.


----------



## KittenKong

Put it this way. If a referendum was held to resurrect the death penalty and one for National Service/Conscription does anyone here positively believe a NO vote would "win" such referendums if positively supported by the media?

I doubt that very much.....


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> I to am an oldie (76) and I did vote out and I did vote tory
> 
> Labour scares the wits out of me
> 
> As for my friends and family, I don't know, that is their choice not mine


All I can say and I've said it before, I'm glad I won't be around when it all goes wrong.


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> So you are proposing a neverendum.
> 
> People where told over and over again this was a once in a generation referendum/vote.
> 
> It's no one elses fault that people didn't take it seriously on referendum day than the fault of those that decided to spoil their ballot sheets, voted leave because they thought it was a joke or voted leave because they thought leave would never win.
> 
> Why should a second referendum take place when the first one was a deciding factor and was repeatedly advertised as such on TV, in the papers on the news etc, etc. David Cameron even said the referendum results would be honoured, and finally people didn't take the first referendum seriously or didn't vote at all because they couldn't be bothered?


*People were not told the full facts, and that was because the government themselves did not , and still don't know them. I ask you this, if i asked you to buy my house ( example ), and you wanted it, would you go ahead and buy without any details? I think not.*
*People were conned into voting because they were not made aware of the facts.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *People were not told the full facts, and that was because the government themselves did not , and still don't know them. I ask you this, if i asked you to buy my house ( example ), and you wanted it, would you go ahead and buy without any details? I think not.*
> *People were conned into voting because they were not made aware of the facts.*


But the referendum was not this Governments fault, nor the last Governments fault. David Cameron took a gamble. The Remain side and Leave side where a mixture of cross party MP's (Labour, Conservative, Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Gibraltarian MP's). So in essence the whole of Parliament was dishonest if you want to look at things that way. Many people did not need campaigners to tell them which why they wanted to voted or help them with their decision as it was already made up along time ago.

The remain side was as bad as the leave side during the campaigning.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here is a snap shot of which MP's campaigned for remain and leave.

*EU vote: Where the cabinet and other MPs stand*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> But the referendum was not this Governments fault, nor the last Governments fault. David Cameron took a gamble. The Remain side and Leave side where a mixture of cross party MP's (Labour, Conservative, Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Gibraltarian MP's). So in essence the whole of Parliament was dishonest if you want to look at things that way. Many people did not need campaigners to tell them which why they wanted to voted or help them with their decision as it was already made up along time ago.
> 
> The remain side was as bad as the leave side during the campaigning.


*I agree with you that none of them told us the truth. But whichever way you look at it, nobody would have expected the mess we find ourselves in now.*
*And for that reason i believe, we should have another vote if and when a deal is sorted out.*


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> Labour scares the wits out of me


Labour scare the wits out of me too, thing is Tories are no better, damaging their country for party politics for a start. UK democratic process needs change as it is failing but that is another separate issue.

Notice nobody has argued that they did know what they were voting for. Only that it means different things to different people. No, the results and consequences of leaving are going to be fixed.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> I'm an oldie (69) and I did* not* vote leave and a certainly would* never* vote tory, nor would any of my family or friends.


But then you have had different life experiences to me and that's your right

That's democracy


----------



## rona

LinznMilly said:


> You answered your own question above - because of the idiots who treated it as a joke and didn't take it seriously.


So they should now be able to vote again even though they have actually proven that they are idiots and have wasted that chance already?

That can't be right


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> So they should now be able to vote again even though they have actually proven that they are idiots and have wasted that chance already?
> 
> That can't be right


In the light of the new facts; that's democracy.


----------



## rona

JANICE199 said:


> But whichever way you look at it, nobody would have expected the mess we find ourselves in now.


I expected almost exactly this...................


----------



## KittenKong

Courtesy of The Guardian's transcript of May's interview with Andrew Marr and a couple of comments.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> He said he is no longer fighting to remain in the EU recently
> 
> How about Jacob Rees Mogg hard line brexitier
> 
> View attachment 327099


Oh I like moggs! He gets my vote.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 327229
> View attachment 327230
> View attachment 327231
> View attachment 327232
> 
> 
> Courtesy of The Guardian's transcript of May's interview with Andrew Marr and a couple of comments.


This is something that is consistently overlooked by the likes of the Sun, where Boris outlined his Red Lines for the transition period: The terms of the transition are not subject to the whims of Boris, May, the Tories or the UK negotiators. We are the petitioners here, asking the EU to allow us the same benefits for 2 years or more after we officially leave the EU. It is entirely up to the EU, if they decide to grant us that concession, what terms they offer, and our decision will simply be whether we accept them or throw the country off a cliff.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Fingers crossed
> 
> Him:Hilarious


Good god noush, he,s ancient, besides hes standing down I believe, think I read in the village mag that the museum have claimed ownership of him.

Now please please please dont even think of his side kick anna sourby let alone say it:Bear


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## 1290423

I will say Teresa May said nor did anything on the politics show to impress me, and her body language was awkward tk say the least. Hate to have to say this but she's hiding both strong and stable pretty well! Bad choice by the tories bad choice.

And No I dont regret voting out and never shall. Just annoyed with myself that I ever went against my first judgement of her, when she somehow managed to mislead many of us into believing she could pull this one off!


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> What if people have changed their minds


Bad luck . . . what if you change your mind about voting Labour . . . you're stuck with the new government regardless of whom you voted for until the next election.


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> Bad luck . . . what if you change your mind about voting Labour . . . you're stuck with the new government regardless of whom you voted for until the next election.


At which time the decision can be reversed along with policies. Not so with leaving the EU. If we wish to rejoin it would be without all the benefits and exceptions we have currently. Things like out of schengen area, no euro etc, veto in many areas. You know.. having our cake.


----------



## Calvine

Goblin said:


> At which time the decision can be reversed along with policies.


And at which time there will still be people - different ones mayhap - who wish they voted had differently. And there will still be the ones who can't be bothered to vote who then complain. It's life.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Bad luck . . . what if you change your mind about voting Labour . . . you're stuck with the new government regardless of whom you voted for until the next election.


That's true but not the case with referendums.

You could use that argument about having to wait 41 years for another EEC/EU referendum.


----------



## 1290423

Calvine said:


> Bad luck . . . what if you change your mind about voting Labour . . . you're stuck with the new government regardless of whom you voted for until the next election.


Hang on a minute! Im liking the sound of this one we change our mind if we don't like the result after the event! Right.! And wow! could work well for some we lay a bet, we lose so its ok we just change our mind after the result,
Lol


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Hang on a minute! Im liking the sound of this one we change our mind if we don't like the result after the event! Right.! And wow! could work well for some we lay a bet, we lose so its ok we just change our mind after the result,
> Lol


Could you imagine it though if this happened, we'd never stop voting and never hear the end of it. What a mess that would turn democracy into. Politicians would never be able to get anything done.

The bookies would be busy as well of course


----------



## KittenKong

Full respect for this lot!


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> And at which time there will still be people - different ones mayhap - who wish they voted had differently. And there will still be the ones who can't be bothered to vote who then complain. It's life.


Which is why, when you have a non-reversible decision you need a mandate which is based on facts, facts you cannot provide. You also need a binding referendum if you are going the referendum route. Binding referendums are possible, this one wasn't. Informed choice when facts are known. I know scary having people actually knowing what they are voting for.



stockwellcat. said:


> Could you imagine it though if this happened, we'd never stop voting and never hear the end of it.


They do though don't they for general elections. I wonder who stated the following


> In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.


Make referendum binding and stick a minimum on it. Surely if you have so many advantages of leaving based on facts that should be no problem. Oh wait.. facts and people actually being informed...

Changing tact on the idea EU has kept "the peace", http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...gh-foyle-between-uk-and-ireland-35223877.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Which is why, when you have a non-reversible decision you need a mandate which is based on facts, facts you cannot provide. You also need a binding referendum if you are going the referendum route. Binding referendums are possible, this one wasn't. Informed choice when facts are known. I know scary having people actually knowing what they are voting for.
> 
> They do though don't they for general elections. I wonder who stated the following
> 
> Make referendum binding and stick a minimum on it. Surely if you have so many advantages of leaving based on facts that should be no problem. Oh wait.. facts and people actually being informed...
> 
> Changing tact on the idea EU has kept "the peace", http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...gh-foyle-between-uk-and-ireland-35223877.html


Referendums are non binding so future referendums can take place and you know that. I did not say in what I just said that a referendum on the EU would take place again because it won't anytime soon. Remainers are wanting another referendum in the hope that people would change their minds and brexit gets stopped and all of this can be brushed under the carpet.

@KittenKong your statement above is correct that people waited 40 odd years for the referendum last year so these people had already made their minds up before the referendum. It is only fair that another referendum is held in 40 odd years time imo because those that voted to join the EC made everyone wait for 40 odd years and ignored those that voted against joining the EC.

The protests in Manchester today are nowhere near the Tory Conference and again is only small gatherings.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15...ion_to_ensure_Brexit_happens/#comments-anchor


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Referendums are non binding so future referendums can take place and you know that. I did not say in what I just said that a referendum on the EU would take place again because it won't anytime soon. Remainers are wanting another referendum in the hope that people would change their minds and brexit gets stopped and all of this can be brushed under the carpet.


Well a binding referendum is the responsible thing to do so people actually can make an informed choice when the terms of leaving are known. I know that concept is scary for you. Actually knowing details and having to show advantages to leaving especially as you have been unable to do so thus far. No wonder you are so against the idea.. facts being used.


----------



## stockwellcat.

You have to remember @KittenKong and @Goblin we could be out of the EU with nothing else said if Cameron was true to his word as he said that he would act on the results of the referendum the next day or if a hard brexitier was PM instead of May the remainer.

I to have changed my mind @DT about May and she isn't imo the right person to take the UK put of the EU, Rees Mogg on the other hand would be an ideal choice to get the UK out of the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Well a binding referendum is the responsible thing to do so people actually can make an informed choice when the terms of leaving are known. I know that concept is scary for you. Actually knowing details and having to show advantages to leaving especially as you have been unable to do so thus far. No wonder you are so against the idea.. facts being used.


Your only wanting a binding referendum in the hope remain wins and the subject is never talked about again because we wouldn't be able to have another referendum on the subject thus silencing the leave voters.

The idea of a binding referendum does not scare me but it probably would the remainers because if they lose they wouldn't be happy. Lets remember a non binding referendum took the UK into the EC.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Referendums are non binding so future referendums can take place and you know that. I did not say in what I just said that a referendum on the EU would take place again because it won't anytime soon. Remainers are wanting another referendum in the hope that people would change their minds and brexit gets stopped and all of this can be brushed under the carpet.
> 
> @KittenKong
> The protests in Manchester today are nowhere near the Tory Conference and again is only small gatherings.


I thought it was very brave of them seeing the Tories are seen as the party of hard Brexit.

Tories are barely seen in public at the moment, remembering how May hid away most of the time during her election recently!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I thought it was very brave of them seeing the *Tories are seen as the party of Brexit. *


They aren't the only party who support Brexit, Labour supports Brexit to and the DUP support Brexit as well.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> They aren't the only party who support Brexit, Labour supports Brexit to and the DUP support Brexit as well.


That's because they have expected how people voted, now they just want to get the best of the country, it's a pity the torys don't.


----------



## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> You have to remember @KittenKong and @Goblin we could be out of the EU with nothing else said if Cameron was true to his word as he said that he would act on the results of the referendum the next day or if a hard brexitier was PM instead of May the remainer.
> 
> I to have changed my mind @DT about May and she isn't imo the right person to take the UK put of the EU, Rees Mogg on the other hand would be an ideal choice to get the UK out of the EU.


Awh! Now, you have a good point there my friend.
Caramon did tell us , and then kept reminding us that out meant out. Seem to recall him constantly reminding us that we could not have it both ways, and did I dream that he also said this was a ONCE in a lifetime vote?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Your only wanting a binding referendum in the hope remain wins and the subject is never talked about again because we wouldn't be able to have another referendum on the subject thus silencing the leave voters.


As if even a binding referendum would shut leavers up if people voted to stay in. After all the 2nd referendum petition was started by leave before they knew the result. Farage had already said it wouldn't be the end. All the time you are peddling misinformation and lies it will be the same old although many of those lies have now been exposed as just that lies. What's important is that people make informed choices.

Of course this isn't simply about Brexit is it. It's important the politicians are held accountable and that they don't peddle lies and hide information. It's important that the country is not damaged for the sake of internal party politics. It's important that people don't allow governments to use others as scapegoats for their own failures.


----------



## Goblin

DT said:


> Awh! Now, you have a good point there my friend.
> Caramon did tell us , and then kept reminding us that out meant out. Seem to recall him constantly reminding us that we could not have it both ways, and did I dream that he also said this was a ONCE in a lifetime vote?


Yep and 350million will go to the NHS  What a load of balony, along with most of leave's promises as evidenced by reality. Even if Cameron had handed article 50 immediately we would still be in a similar mess. There is no neatness or easy BREXIT as leave promised. We don't and have never held all the cards as promised by Gove. Don't even get me started on Boris.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yep and 350million will go to the NHS  What a load of balony, along with most of leave's promises as evidenced by reality. Even if Cameron had handed article 50 immediately we would still be in a similar mess. There is no neatness or easy BREXIT as leave promised. We don't and have never held all the cards as promised by Gove. Don't even get me started on Boris.


You seem to be forgetting Cameron was a remain supporter and didn't back leave at all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Awh! Now, you have a good point there my friend.
> Caramon did tell us , and then kept reminding us that out meant out. Seem to recall him constantly reminding us that we could not have it both ways, and did I dream that he also said this was a ONCE in a lifetime vote?


He said it was a once in a generation vote and I think your right he also said that it would be a once in a lifetime vote as well during his many TV appearances trying to scare people into voting remain  He also did say out means out and remain means remain.


----------



## 1290423

Goblin said:


> Yep and 350million will go to the NHS  What a load of balony.


Erm, did camaron promise that? Did I make mention of what either camp said? I was merely reminding everyone of exactly what we were voting for !!
irrespective of what either camp promised, 
I didn't question how voters came to said decision nor WHY they chose to to come to that decision !
Balony came from both camps, and it continues to do so, incase it escaped your attention like!


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Erm, did camaron promise that?


No he didn't.

Cameron made it clear he supported remain and lead the project fear campaign with Osborne.


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## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> having to wait 41 years for another EEC/EU referendum.


That, again, is tough, @KittenKong; but, on the plus side, it will give the Remainers on this thread something to post about in their dotage. (Every cloud has a silver lining I guess.)


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## Goblin

DT said:


> Erm, did camaron promise that? Did I make mention of what either camp said? I was merely reminding everyone of exactly what we were voting for !!


Lies of politicians. If you choose to pick the argument that "Cameron said" you cannot pick and choose what and what politician. So where is that 350 million for the NHS going to come from? As for what you voted for please state the details. Which bodies are we leaving and side effects. What effects will WTO rules have on business? What about Ireland/NI? What about Gibraltar? Or are you going to simply say leave means leave like Brexit means brexit as all you do is recite slogans which mean nothing. I guess the alternative is to say I don't need to say but that's such a cop out for not knowing what you voted for.



stockwellcat. said:


> and lead the project fear campaign with Osborne.


You mean project reality.. maybe not in the timeframe stated but it is coming true when we haven't even left yet with the full impact. Export figures are great some say.. where are they exporting to.. what the EU so taking advantage of the benefits of the single market?


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## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You mean project reality..


Nah Cameron and Osborne where the Project Fear Leaders. You just need to use google.co.uk and type in Project Fear it will tell you all about it.


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## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> what the EU so taking advantage of the benefits of the single market?


We are to. We are still in the EU at the moment aren't we? Or have we already left?


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## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Lies of politicians. If you choose to pick the argument that "Cameron said" you cannot pick and choose what and what politician.


Cameron and Osborne led the remain campaign. They both lied through their back teeth and were renouned for lying.


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## 1290423

And apologies to the Mods and other members,for my outbreak there I've put that person on ignore now so won't be replying again. But seriously I do think someone needs to question his attitude it certainly needs addressing.


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## 1290423

But just to add I did list some time ago about how the EU did affect us in our business and our we were much better buying from the rest of the world despite the tariffs we were paying from those countries not complete idiot well not quiet,


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## Arnie83

So someone is condemned to hang.

New evidence emerges casting doubt on the validity of the conviction.

Would the leavers on here be saying "No, sorry, the jury has spoken. You must hang!"

Or would you revisit the decision in light of the new evidence before pulling the lever?


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## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Would the leavers on here be saying "No, sorry, the jury has spoken.


I would say no the jury spoke on the 23rd June 2016.


> Or would you revisit the decision in light of the new evidence before pulling the lever?


Never. It was made clear over and over again by David Cameron that this was a once in a generation/life time referendum and the result would be acted on/honoured. It was the biggest turn out in political history according to the Electoral Commissions website. The majority however small it was voted to leave.

That is my opinion other leavers may have a different opinion.


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## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> So someone is condemned to hang.
> 
> New evidence emerges casting doubt on the validity of the conviction.
> 
> Would the leavers on here be saying "No, sorry, the jury has spoken. You must hang!"
> 
> Or would you revisit the decision in light of the new evidence before pulling the lever?


That is a good point and I appreciate your reasoning but when the death penalty is passed until the 11th hour there is always the chance of reprieve.
I don't think we can compare that with the EU and nor as it happens do I think should we compare my example regarding the betting, that was just a silly little dig


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## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> The majority however small it was voted to leave


What happens in a General Election if the majority is very small?


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## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> That is my opinion other leavers may have a different opinion.


Agree: no-one is due to hang here.


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## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I would say no the jury spoke on the 23rd June 2016.
> Never. It was made clear over and over again by David Cameron that this was a once in a generation/life time referendum and the result would be acted on/honoured. It was the biggest turn out in political history according to the Electoral Commissions website. The majority however small it was voted to leave.


So where's that 350million per week for the NHS going to come from?



Calvine said:


> What happens in a General Election if the majority is very small?


It can be reversed at the next GE, unlike leaving the EU.


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## Elles

What has hanging and an unsafe conviction got to do with voting to leave or stay in the Eu? 

No one will die from leaving the Eu, no one is condemned. We're leaving the Eu, not Europe. The government are adjusting policy due to popular opinion and their desire to stay at number 10. Which is as it should be. I expect we'll get another referendum, if popular opinion appears to be calling for it. At the moment it doesn't, or the Lib Dems might have been more popular at the last election.

I can't believe that some politician, or somebody says that we'd vote to bring back hanging, so shouldn't have been given a vote on the Eu.  How many more ridiculous statements are they going to come up with.

No one knows either way what the future holds. More wanted to chance it outside the Eu and trust that the opportunities will materialise and be taken advantage of. Clearly the rest will keep on about another referendum, because they believe people have changed their minds and would vote Remain, even though there's no proof of that. I don't care either way. If there's another vote we'll likely leave and if there isn't we'll likely leave. 

I don't know where there's evidence that people would vote any other way, or that notable public figures have changed their minds. Polls of around a thousand people go either way and and a few thousand signing a petition or going on a march isn't evidence, unless the few thousand are all ex leave voters and I don't believe they are?


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## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> What happens in a General Election if the majority is very small?


The winning party gets into power. :Muted


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## kimthecat

Just reading the comments about the Manchester Anti Brexit march . Amazing how many people don't understand the difference between the Eu and European yet remainers are alleged to be the intelligent ones. They think we are we are leaving Europe and we wont be European . Do they think Mrs may is going to tow Britain out to the Pacific or something ?


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## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> Agree: no-one is due to hang here.


Or here.


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## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> yet *leavers* are alleged to be the intelligent ones.


Remainers you mean 
But saying that I was intelligent enough to decide for myself and vote leave


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## Goblin

Elles said:


> I can't believe that some politician, or somebody says that we'd vote to bring back hanging, so shouldn't have been given a vote on the Eu.  How many more ridiculous statements are they going to come up with.


Actually start looking up how people rarely answer the question at referendums actually voting for something else. Example, June 2016 constitutional referendum on gender equality in the Bahamas. Rumors were spread that voting "yes" could lead to same-sex marriage, even though the issues on the ballot were only about gender equality and its role in citizenship rights. By Election Day, many were not voting on whether they supported equal rights for men and women, but whether they supported same-sex marriage and LGBT rights. Ultimately, 79 percent voted against the gender nondiscrimination bill just as many voted for 350million for the NHS or as a protest vote against the government.


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## Elles

So what you're saying is that people shouldn't vote, in case they make the wrong choice and it should be left to the politicians.


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## Arnie83

DT said:


> That is a good point and I appreciate your reasoning but when the death penalty is passed until the 11th hour there is always the chance of reprieve.
> I don't think we can compare that with the EU and nor as it happens do I think should we compare my example regarding the betting, that was just a silly little dig


I chose the 'hanging' analogy purposely because there is a (fairly obvious! ) point in time after which a review of the death sentence would be somewhat moot!

In terms of Brexit, while at some point many years hence a reapplication may be feasible, that cut-off point is March 2019. (That's why the 'neverendum' argument, while a nice soundbite, is really not relevant.)

I just think it is very reasonable, and extremely democratic, to hold a vote on the negotiated deal because 1) we will know what is on offer, whether it is tariffs & customs checks or free trade at an increased cost etc and 2) we will know what is *not* on offer, like £350m a week for the NHS.

I honestly don't think that the original referendum was anything of which a true democrat should be anything other than ashamed.


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## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Remainers you mean


Yeah ! I get things the wrong way round when I get tired.


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## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So what you're saying is that people shouldn't vote, in case they make the wrong choice and it should be left to the politicians.


I'm certainly all for that. Brexit yes / no should have been a free vote in Parliament.


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## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I'm certainly all for that. Brexit yes / no should have been a free vote in Parliament.


You do realise that if that happened we would be likely to end up with a ukip government and Brexit MPs?


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## Arnie83

Elles said:


> What has hanging and an unsafe conviction got to do with voting to leave or stay in the Eu?


It was an analogy, as I explained.

The unsafe conviction element is very relevant, in my view, because a great deal of new information has come to light since the original vote.



Elles said:


> *No one will die from leaving the Eu*, no one is condemned. We're leaving the Eu, not Europe. The government are adjusting policy due to popular opinion and their desire to stay at number 10. Which is as it should be. I expect we'll get another referendum, if popular opinion appears to be calling for it. At the moment it doesn't, or the Lib Dems might have been more popular at the last election.


I like your optimism, but should the NHS deteriorate because of the lack of immigrant staff and the lower public funds available to support, someone most certainly _will_ die because of it.


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## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I like your optimism, but should the NHS deteriorate because of the lack of immigrant staff and the lower public funds available to support, someone most certainly _will_ die because of it.


The NHS I'm afraid is a separate issue. Better people than I are looking for a solution. There are many immigrant staff from outside the Eu working for the NHS, I expect there will be more. You already know my feelings on other countries training staff for the uk to use and cheap labour.


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## Arnie83

Elles said:


> You do realise that if that happened we would be likely to end up with a ukip government and Brexit MPs?


I think that is and always was extremely unlikely. In terms of people's priorities the EU has always been well down the list come a general election, including the last one. People care about how much they're going to be taxed, NHS waiting lists, education, etc.

Most people have never been very interested in it, except the Kippers. Ask someone to name their MEP and you'll get a shrug. Ask someone to quote an EU 'law' that has adversely affected their life and you'll get another. Ask them how new 'laws' are proposed, and get through the EU legislative process, and you'll get an even bigger one.


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## 1290423

Arnie83 said:


> I chose the 'hanging' analogy purposely because there is a (fairly obvious! ) point in time after which a review of the death sentence would be somewhat moot!
> 
> In terms of Brexit, while at some point many years hence a reapplication may be feasible, that cut-off point is March 2019. (That's why the 'neverendum' argument, while a nice soundbite, is really not relevant.)
> 
> I just think it is very reasonable, and extremely democratic, to hold a vote on the negotiated deal because 1) we will know what is on offer, whether it is tariffs & customs checks or free trade at an increased cost etc and 2) we will know what is *not* on offer, like £350m a week for the NHS.
> 
> I honestly don't think that the original referendum was anything of which a true democrat should be anything other than ashamed.


Yes! I guessed you did, and I can understand why.
And sorry if this sounds rude, . But there are some of us, possibly many who wanted out of the EU at whatever cost. we never wanted to be a part of it in the first place. and to have to justify why we chose to vote as we did to those with opposing views is not acceptable. NOT yourself I add, you have been respectful of others throughout this thread.


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## Goblin

DT said:


> But there are some of us, possibly many *who wanted out of the EU at whatever cost*. we never wanted to be a part of it in the first place. and to *have to justify why we chose to vote as we did to those with opposing views* is not acceptable.


You've answered the question. You wanted out.. no matter what it would cost anyone else or what effect it would have as you personally (not we) never wanted to be a part of it. Doesn't matter the positives of the EU, the negatives of leaving or any advantages to leaving.


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## Satori

Goblin said:


> You've answered the question. You wanted out.. no matter what it would cost anyone else or what effect it would have as you personally (not we) never wanted to be a part of it. Doesn't matter the positives of the EU, the negatives of leaving or any advantages to leaving.


Yup.

Can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.


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## Goblin

Satori said:


> Yup.
> 
> Can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.


Interesting that since the referendum and we'll do better out of the EU pushed by the leave the campaign it's now it doesn't matter if people are worse off. We aren't talking omelettes but people's lives of course. Still interesting to see who likes the comparison.


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## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> Or here.


Oh I don't know! Its early yet...........


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## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> Its early yet...........


True.
Its only 21:58pm and I have already had 3 bottles of Hobgoblin :Wacky


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## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> True.
> Its only 21:58pm and I have already had 3 bottles of Hobgoblin :Wacky


 dont swear please!


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## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> dont swear please!


I am drinking this...








Don't worry that one ^ was empty


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## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> I am drinking this...
> View attachment 327382
> 
> Don't worry that one ^ was empty


you are scaring me now! . And aone may find that picture distasteful.


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## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> you are scaring me now! . And aone may find that picture distasteful.


That's me done for tonight. :Wacky :Wacky


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## 1290423

stockwellcat. said:


> That's me done for tonight. :Wacky :Wacky


Night night stockwell sweet dreams


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## Happy Paws2

DT said:


> Erm, did camaron promise that?


No..... that was Boris


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## LinznMilly

I did ask members contributing to this thread, to keep it civil back on p646. Despite that post, a few members have decided to ignore that, and, once again, personal attacks have started to creep in, posts have had to be edited and/or deleted.

I apologise to the majority of contributing members on both sides, who have successfully managed to keep things respectful, but for the above reason, and the fact that this thread is currently just going around in circles, this closure is permanent. I usually invite members who disagree with a decision of mine, to PM me, but this time, it's not up for discussion.

Forum rules apply to any other Brexit thread.

:Locktopic


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