# Emigrating because of Brexit. Where best to go?



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm very content living in England but now, according to some, this country is decending in to such an appalling pit of facist, racist uncaring horribleness where would be a good country to migrate to?

Where would this be - where you could actually find a little contentment?

I always thought New Zealand looked a little like paradise, but it is a bit pricey.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Don't know your age, but from what I understand when we were holidaying out in NZ last year, there is a similar points system as in Australia, so it's not just a matter of going there to live cos you fancy it unless you have plenty of money so that you are not a drain on their social services, or you have a skill that is needed.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

My first thought would be someplace like NZ. Australia is generally poisonous animals  Europe is also seeing rise of the right wing. Grass is always greener on the other side though.

Sometimes I like the thought of doing something like the film Passport to Pimlico if you could get away with it.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Not that I could go anywhere with my health problems and my age, but if it was possible I'd love to live in France or Canada


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

To paraphrase Groucho Marx ; I refuse to join any country that would have me as a member!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm told Pripyat is a relatively peaceful place these days. With just a sparse few established residents (mainly elderly) you're guaranteed to spend your future days without the interference or nuisance of loud and boisterous neighbours.
Although their main pastime is drinking, I'm sure they'd be hospitable enough to invite you to one or two very laid back parties.

Of course the real bonus is, you wouldn't have to worry about those long dark nights and expensive electricity bills.

Everything glows in the dark


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## Wilmer (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm a big fan of the west coast of Canada - obviously Betty disagrees being a Newfy . I know a number of people who have followed jobs out there, and they all love it. Lovely people, beautiful landscape and Vancouver appears to be massively dog friendly - we were in a harbour-front businessy type hotel and there were several doggy guests - the hotel supplied monogrammed accessories! Just watch out for the bears...


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

samuelsmiles said:


> I'm very content living in England but now, according to some, this country is decending in to such an appalling pit of facist, racist uncaring horribleness where would be a good country to migrate to?
> 
> Where would this be - where you could actually find a little contentment?
> 
> I always thought New Zealand looked a little like paradise, but it is a bit pricey.


Have you found it to be so? It always amazes me when we talk about it being an uncaring country yet every time Children In Need comes around or Comic/Sport Relief we smash the previous years records and the appeal for money to fund cancer treatment for the ex Emmerdale actress was reached in a couple of days. If it is such a horrid racist uncaring country why do people still want to come here?


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

If I was to move from the UK I would most likely go to either Canada or somewhere like Norway or Sweden.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Wilmer said:


> I'm a big fan of the west coast of Canada - obviously Betty disagrees being a Newfy . I know a number of people who have followed jobs out there, and they all love it. Lovely people, beautiful landscape and Vancouver appears to be massively dog friendly - we were in a harbour-front businessy type hotel and there were several doggy guests - the hotel supplied monogrammed accessories! Just watch out for the bears...


We went to Canada about three years ago and spent about a week at my friends house, she married a Canadian and have moved about Canada quite a bit, but have now settled on Vancouver Island. It's a lovely place, I can understand why they have chosen to live there and I thought the capitol, Victoria, was lovely, very english feeling in a nice way. However, sharing my space with large brown bears rather put me off, sort of makes you think twice about taking a woodland walk with the dog.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Canada has a points based system like Australia and New Zealand. http://www.canada-da.com/news.html

Sweden is a nice country with nice people living there but does get very cold during the Winter and has very long days during the summer, Sweden is also in the EU so you wouldn't really be escaping Brexit: https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries/sweden_en


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Malta
They speak English and lots of UK based business are moving there

Sunshine. Sea...Cheap wine...


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

NZ or Canada will be my choice. Never met anyone I didn't like from there and I like the amazing diversity of nature, and they have proper seasons too


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Canada, The climate suits me and I love their accent


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> *Have you found it to be so?* It always amazes me when we talk about it being an uncaring country yet every time Children In Need comes around or Comic/Sport Relief we smash the previous years records and the appeal for money to fund cancer treatment for the ex Emmerdale actress was reached in a couple of days. If it is such a horrid racist uncaring country why do people still want to come here?


No, not me - I think we're very lucky to be living here. I'm migrating from Watford to the very beautiful Buckinghamshire countryside very soon.

I was just very interested to find out about countries that the people who hate this one so much would prefer to live in, and why?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@samualsmiles. I'm not that far from you . From where I live Watford _is_ the country . 

I envy you moving , the Bucks countryside really is beautiful .


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Having a few friends who have moved to both Aus and NZ have experienced high levels of racism, these are countries after all that refer to Pakistani's as Paki's in the press and on TV! 

Good skiing though in NZ!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Have you found it to be so? It always amazes me when we talk about it being an uncaring country yet every time Children In Need comes around or Comic/Sport Relief we smash the previous years records and the appeal for money to fund cancer treatment for the ex Emmerdale actress was reached in a couple of days. If it is such a horrid racist uncaring country why do people still want to come here?


Know a couple of people who do feel that way and if it wasn't for family/jobs would move. They were born outside of the UK though, something I think that may give them a different perspective. We are talking about people who have lived in the UK for years.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Grass is always greener... Australia & NZ have their fair share of troubling social issues and did you know Canadians are only entitled to a maximum of 15 days annual leave?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Never been, but I have this love affair with Australia. Would definitely be on my list to move to


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

TBH for Gibraltarians it is reality as our post Brexit economy is no longer sustainable.

People would have to go somewhere.

Few friends were recently made redundant.

Heck of a worry as they have kids in schools etc...

Been thinking myself as might be in that boat too...


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

If I could afford to I'd go to Canada, my dad emigrated there & he reckons it's great.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I don't want to go anywhere but here 

Maybe just a different part of here would be nice. Somewhere a bit more rural, maybe mid Wales


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

You may change your mind after living in Buckinghamshire for a while. A very nice area.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

If I could, I'd go to Switzerland. But that is extremely unlikely. I might consider moving to a more rural area that is closer to a big city. But that's where everyone wants to live...


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## JessIncaFCR (Oct 1, 2012)

Canada! Love that place.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

samuelsmiles said:


> No, not me - I think we're very lucky to be living here. I'm migrating from Watford to the very beautiful Buckinghamshire countryside very soon.
> 
> I was just very interested to find out about countries that the people who hate this one so much would prefer to live in, and why?


I think we are very lucky too, I spent many years living in London then moved to Dorset and spend a lot of time in Devon too. When we had a motorhome we went to the most beautiful places in Wales and Scotland too. There is nowhere else I would rather live


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> @samualsmiles. I'm not that far from you . *From where I live Watford is the country *.
> 
> I envy you moving , the Bucks countryside really is beautiful .


Where are you?

You know, you're right - as plain as Watford sounds, I can walk out of my door and five minutes walk away I have a disused railway line that continues on to the canal towpaths and then to ancient woods and some moorland and literally hundreds of miles of dog walking country. I genuinely love this part of England.

Buckinghamshire is a lot cheaper though, so a tiny mortgage and more time every day sitting in fields doing nothing important with my dogs.

Lord, I love this country so much.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

samuelsmiles said:


> Where are you?
> 
> You know, you're right - as plain as Watford sounds, I can walk out of my door and five minutes walk away I have a disused railway line that continues on to the canal towpaths and then to ancient woods and some moorland and literally hundreds of miles of dog walking country. I genuinely love this part of England.
> 
> ...


Its so good to hear some positive things being said instead of all the doom and gloom. I hope you enjoy your new life in Buckinghamshire.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm going nowhere Brexit or not. The editors like to sensationalise situations it sells papers.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I'd never want to live anywhere but Britain.

It's not perfect, but where is tbh?

When we retire we will move to somewhere less populated though


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> I'd never want to live anywhere but Britain.
> 
> It's not perfect, but where is tbh?
> 
> When we retire we will move to somewhere less populated though


I do agree with this, we are all inclined to think the grass is greener and more often or not are bitterly disappointed to find its not. As @foxiesummer says, papers exaggerate to sell copies.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

samuelsmiles said:


> Where are you?
> 
> You know, you're right - as plain as Watford sounds, I can walk out of my door and five minutes walk away I have a disused railway line that continues on to the canal towpaths and then to ancient woods and some moorland and literally hundreds of miles of dog walking country. I genuinely love this part of England.
> 
> ...


 Will PM you. Sounds lovely. I used to go to Watford town for shopping but used to get lost round the one way system.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

samuelsmiles said:


> I'm very content living in England but now, according to some, this country is decending in to such an appalling pit of facist, racist uncaring horribleness where would be a good country to migrate to?
> 
> Where would this be - where you could actually find a little contentment?
> 
> I always thought New Zealand looked a little like paradise, but it is a bit pricey.


Sad isn't it. I'm English born and no longer feel happy living here so I can imagine what it must be like for you. I'm extremely fortunate to live not far from the Scottish border which I hope to make home after retiring now it won't be possible to move to the sun within the EU.

Rottiepointerhouse raises a good point though. Seeing how much is raised in charity events shows much of the UK population remaining caring and compassionate. It isn't all bad here and not all the UK born population are xenophobic bigots and agree with what you see in daily newspapers.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I used to be proud of my country, how tolerant we were of other nationalities. We had social values and a fine record on animal welfare and so on. The best health service in the world. Since all these things are being eroded away I struggle more and more to find things to proud. Of course there are still loads of caring & compassionate individuals but as a country we are becoming increasingly divisive & are clearly losing our compassion. I'm feeling increasingly ashamed & embarrassed of Britain the country. I don't recognise it anymore! :/ You would have to be in complete denial not to be aware of the spiralling homelessness & poverty. Or the attack on the disabled. And how backwards we have gone on animal welfare & environmental protection. (there's no doubt now, under this hard right government, fox hunting will legalised). All these things were created by political choices.

All this shame & so much more before we even get to spike in hate crimes. It is horrifying to hear people refusing to acknowledge the rise in xenophobia & be apologists for a racist government. We really are on a slippery slope if people don't make a stand against this hate. I don't think we have learned anything from history.

In answer to the original question, if I didn't have any responsibilities I would love to emigrate to a progressive country like Costa Rica. A country that has tried to protect its beautiful natural environment from the exploitation of the greedy. Scotland is looking increasingly tempting too. I sure they will eventually break away from this sinking ship.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Exactly how I feel Noushka.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

samuelsmiles said:


> I'm very content living in England but now, according to some, this country is decending in to such an appalling pit of facist, racist uncaring horribleness where would be a good country to migrate to?
> 
> Where would this be - where you could actually find a little contentment?
> 
> I always thought New Zealand looked a little like paradise, but it is a bit pricey.


NZ isnt in the EU either

what about Germany?


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> I'm extremely fortunate to live not far from the Scottish border which I hope to make home after retiring now it won't be possible to move to the sun within the EU.


It might still be possible. A weak pound doesn't make it any easier though.

"Descendants of Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain and Portugal five centuries ago may be able to apply for a Spanish or Portuguese passport more easily under recent legislation - although there are language requirements."

Oy vey.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> I would love to emigrate to a progressive country like Costa Rica.


You just want to play at :


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I feel claustrophobic in this country now. Every square of green, woodland is being made into houses or sports pitches  We are bursting at the seems, I hate it here.


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

I like the idea of Canada or New Zealand but realistically, if I moved away, I'd probably end up in the US due to family ties.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Muttly said:


> I feel claustrophobic in this country now. Every square of green, woodland is being made into houses or sports pitches  We are bursting at the seems, I hate it here.


You need to move - we have plenty of wide open spaces in Dorset and Devon


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Muttly said:


> I feel claustrophobic in this country now. Every square of green, woodland is being made into houses or sports pitches  We are bursting at the seems, I hate it here.


I think that's subjective tbh based on where you live as some parts of the midlands for example, it's hard to tell where one town ends and the other begins. Where I live in the south there is loads of greenery though and the majority of my 15 mile commute is through open fields.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

stuaz said:


> I think that's subjective tbh based on where you live as some parts of the midlands for example, it's hard to tell where one town ends and the other begins. Where I live in the south there is loads of greenery though and the majority of my 15 mile commute is through open fields.


Your're right, it does depend on where you live.
When we first married we had a semi on an estate that was close to fields, so it felt nice to walk alongside them or on the odd footpath. Now all those fields have been built on and the whole area feels claustrophobic to me. 
I've discovered over the years that I have a need to see lots of sky rather then being in woodland or living at the bottom of a steep sided valley, or indeed living in the middle of a housing estate. It's why I like living where we do, near the top of a hill with long views or in Suffolk which is generally pretty flat and underpopulated. On the other hand many people hate to be in an area where the skies go on forever and prefer to live in towns and cities where there's lots going on and plenty of shops. 
I'm wondering if those who are wishing to escape the UK now, would you be feeling the same if the vote had gone the other way and why? I can't imagine that all this awful racism wasn't there before the vote and has now suddenly appeared.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Who knew, that moving from the edge of Bristol, a City where we are spoilt for lovely places to walk, to Norfolk which has a reputation to be very rural and dog walker friendly. I would feel the most squeezed here!

From my parents house (our family home) you can walk out the back gate to miles of open countryside and I never realised how lucky we were (didn't have a dog of my own then). They have tried to build on it, but luckily the farmer wont sell. It's livestock, not crops so can still walk there. You rarely see them tbh.

Norfolk and Cambridgeshire (I am near the border) has a hell of a lot of farm land, that of course you cannot walk on, so it is deceiving. Then the small open free range land that is left near any kind of life, is demolished and built on 
I mean I have had deer in my front garden this year, why? Because the fields next to me have gone. Poor animals 

I would love to move back to Bristol tbh.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stuaz said:


> I think that's subjective tbh based on where you live as some parts of the midlands for example, it's hard to tell where one town ends and the other begins. Where I live in the south there is loads of greenery though and the majority of my 15 mile commute is through open fields.


But if you walk out there, you can hardly get away from people 

I used to have several walks that took me to solitary places, now I only have one. 

What county are you in where you can escape?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> But if you walk out there, you can hardly get away from people
> 
> I used to have several walks that took me to solitary places, now I only have one.
> 
> What county are you in where you can escape?


Most of our walks in Dorset and Devon we don't see anyone. On Dartmoor you do tend to get people around car parks or particular tourist spots but within a few minutes you leave them all behind and can walk for miles without seeing anyone. Same here in Dorset, even at weekends when there are more people about if you know where to go you can walk for a couple of hours without seeing anyone. Last 3 days our walks have been in daylight and we've one man jogging two nights running in different spots but otherwise we've had the place to ourselves


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Muttly said:


> Who knew, that moving from the edge of Bristol, a City where we are spoilt for lovely places to walk, to Norfolk which has a reputation to be very rural and dog walker friendly. I would feel the most squeezed here!
> 
> From my parents house (our family home) you can walk out the back gate to miles of open countryside and I never realised how lucky we were (didn't have a dog of my own then). They have tried to build on it, but luckily the farmer wont sell. It's livestock, not crops so can still walk there. You rarely see them tbh.
> 
> ...


We get deer in our front garden too despite there being acres of open heathland just across the road, they seem to come more in the winter and regularly eat my pansies


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> We get deer in our front garden too despite there being acres of open heathland just across the road, they seem to come more in the winter and regularly eat my pansies


They must have heard I am promoting a plant based diet :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rona said:


> But if you walk out there, you can hardly get away from people
> 
> I used to have several walks that took me to solitary places, now I only have one.
> 
> What county are you in where you can escape?


I am in Buckinghamshire. My dog walk yesterday for example, I didn't meet another dog or person and that is pretty normal and I don't really go out at odd times, yesterday was around 6pm I think.

I do agree that its more crowded, _in areas_, but there are still places to escape to imo.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I often don't see anyone when dog walking in the village. Where our static is in Suffolk is largely a touristy area for those who like walking rather then a 'kiss me quick' area, but other then in the summer months the place appears deserted despite a number of cars parked at the NT place on the heath. I can only guess they are either in the cafe, sat in their cars admiring the view or have walked somewhere away from the area. Thankfully my village nor the heath will get built on, the Heath is a protected rare habitat and too close to the sea and eroding cliffs, and the village is in a ANOB, has little or no infrastructure and no mains sewage for mass building, steeply sloping on one side and unusual unstable ground on the other. All deliberately chosen when we were looking where to buy the house all those years ago. Cost us a lot and it was baked beans on toast for tea quite often, but it's been worth it.
However it doesn't stop building going on everywhere else without a great deal of thought about infrastructure and the roads, either existing or new ones. When we first moved here the main A road about a mile away, wasn't particularly busy, nowadays it's getting more and more difficult to exit onto the A road not helped by poor visability on one side and drivers speeding despite a lower speed limit at that point. There's plenty to moan about even in what appears to be the nicest of places, part of the British psyche I think.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stuaz said:


> I am in Buckinghamshire. My dog walk yesterday for example, I didn't meet another dog or person and that is pretty normal and I don't really go out at odd times, yesterday was around 6pm I think.
> 
> I do agree that its more crowded, _in areas_, but there are still places to escape to imo.


Try La Mancha...you may walk for days and no more than a vulture in sight...


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Try La Mancha...you may walk for days and no more than a vulture in sight...


Bit more of a trek for a quick walk in the evening


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

I love watching programs like 'Life Below Zero' and Ben Fogles life in the wilds about people that have gone to live 'off grid' though I'm not sure how long I'd survive at -40 with just a chihuahua for protection, we'd probably end up as a bear's breakfast!


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I love watching programs like 'Life Below Zero' and Ben Fogles life in the wilds about people that have gone to live 'off grid' though I'm not sure how long I'd survive at -40 with just a chihuahua for protection, we'd probably end up as a bear's breakfast!


Build a trap, use the chihuahua as bait the other side, and live off bear for a few months  Bearskin is warm, and the meat, sliced and separated, would stay fresh forever!

Now that's living off grid!


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

So as a brit who has now been in NZ for 4 whole months.... first point, come December the skilled migrant route for residency is getting tougher, it was 140pts, its moving to 160.

Cost of living seems equivalent to South east of England. Housing is cheap OUTSIDE of auckland. >1hr from the city and prices seem to drop off, but I dont know how easy it is to find work elsewhere if you are looking for work before arriving. In Auckland, its pricey... $1m + realistically for house prices.

I live remotely at the moment, and it is stunning. Gorgeous and peaceful... but actually too remote for me. we are 40mins from town, and neighbours are a distant memory... we are actually moving so I can be closer to work (2hr commute home most days)
Auckland traffic is TERRIBLE in rush hour, rush hour is shorter than londons, but the traffic is crazy.. and they are impatient drivers (considering they are pretty laid back everywhere else)

The Kiwis are lovely... lots of immigrants from pretty much everywhere so its very diverse. I think I work with more brits now than I ever have haha.
Work, for skilled labour, is readily available and (in Auckland) pays well. They seem to have a work hard, but enjoy the spare time more type philosophy. Everyone seems to be into something... a sport, fishing, going out on the boat etc etc... kids all seem to do alot of stuff as well!!

I have a better quality of life here, but it has been hard at times. Iv been homesick, missing family and its a LONG way from home. My brother marries next week and I will miss it. I also missed my cousins wedding, and I miss my parents alot.

Im looking forward to seeing more of the country as I get holidays - and enjoy summer come next year!!!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> I have a better quality of life here, but it has been hard at times. Iv been homesick, missing family and its a LONG way from home. My brother marries next week and I will miss it. I also missed my cousins wedding, and I miss my parents alot.


Pleased things are going well. This bit I think people underestimate quite a bit. Even harder when people get older, possibly with illness. Still, quality of life is worth thinking about not just for individuals but for the family.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Ideally I want to move to either the Lake District or Yorkshire ( dales side ) within the next five years. I HATE where I live and only moved here due to a bloke and I don't plan on staying here forever!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> You just want to play at :


OMG, WOW! I've never seen anything like it I hadn't heard about this before Goblin, definitely another reason to move here. I REALLY love this country!


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> *I used to be proud of my country,* how tolerant we were of other nationalities. We had social values and a fine record on animal welfare and so on. The best health service in the world. Since all these things are being eroded away I struggle more and more to find things to proud. Of course there are still loads of caring & compassionate individuals but as a country we are becoming increasingly divisive & are clearly losing our compassion. I'm feeling increasingly ashamed & embarrassed of Britain the country. I don't recognise it anymore! :/ You would have to be in complete denial not to be aware of the spiralling homelessness & poverty. Or the attack on the disabled. And how backwards we have gone on animal welfare & environmental protection. (there's no doubt now, under this hard right government, fox hunting will legalised). All these things were created by political choices.
> 
> All this shame & so much more before we even get to spike in hate crimes. It is horrifying to hear people refusing to acknowledge the rise in xenophobia & be apologists for a racist government. We really are on a slippery slope if people don't make a stand against this hate. I don't think we have learned anything from history.
> 
> In answer to the original question, if I didn't have any responsibilities I would love to emigrate to a progressive country like Costa Rica. A country that has tried to protect its beautiful natural environment from the exploitation of the greedy. Scotland is looking increasingly tempting too. I sure they will eventually break away from this sinking ship.


Noushka05, when exactly _were _you proud to be British? The 60's, 70's, 80's, or the 90's? At what point were our social values, animal welfare record etc better?

Costa Rica? I'm not sure about their record on animal welfare? Maybe this gives us a clue. It is a public zoo in 2016.
*http://www.ticotimes.net/2016/09/16/costa-rica-zoo-lion*









Recycling and waste management seems also to be a huge problem with no real recycling being done. We cleaned the River Thames up in the 70's and 80's so much so that salmon soon returned.

Costa Rica today?
*http://www.ticotimes.net/2014/09/26...lean-up-one-of-san-joses-most-polluted-rivers







*

There's plenty more evidence to prove that Costa Rica isn't paradise. For example Britian has a better health service according to a United Nations table -
*http://thepatientfactor.com/canadia...zations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/
*
I could go on looking for things to prove how crap "progressive" Costa Rica is - just as you do for Britain. But - I just haven't got the energy.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

samuelsmiles said:


> Noushka05, when exactly _were _you proud to be British? The 60's, 70's, 80's, or the 90's? At what point were our social values, animal welfare record etc better?
> 
> Costa Rica? I'm not sure about their record on animal welfare? Maybe this gives us a clue. It is a public zoo in 2016.
> *http://www.ticotimes.net/2016/09/16/costa-rica-zoo-lion*
> ...


I used feel proud when we were moving forwards on social, environmental and animal welfare issues - not backwards like we are now. I was proud that we were an inclusive and compassionate country - not the increasingly divisive and dangerously nationalistic one we are becoming.

I didn't say Costa Rica was perfect but its people have far, far more to be proud about than we do of our country. And something you need to bear in mind is there is another huge difference between that country & ours. Costa Rica is a developing country, we, on the other hand, are one of the wealthiest countries in the planet . Thanks to austerity (a political choice) we have seen a 55% rise in homelessness. Sharp rise in poverty, with child poverty set to rise by 50%. Over a million more people using foodbanks. Britain may have a better health service at the moment, but surely you must be aware its now on the verge of collapse?. We have the money to solve these problems( we'll have a hell of a lot less soon when we brexit however.)

These links will give you a better clue than those pictures of yours. I could show you countless horrors of animal cruelty & pollution in this country.

Costa Rica is trying to ban zoos - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-the-animals-back-into-the-wild-8757266.html

It banned wild animals circuses in 2002 . Despite the tories promising to ban wild animals in circuses their own MPs keep blocking the bill. The bill was blocked for the 12th & final time in march last year. Who votes for these awful people?? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...us-blocked-by-tory-backbenchers-10092779.html

It has banned hunting for sport - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/hunting-ban.html

Whilst May has shamefully open England up to the toxic, climate destroying, fracking industry, Costa Rica is aiming for 100% clean renewable energy - http://inhabitat.com/costa-rica-celebrates-113-days-of-100-percent-renewable-energy-and-counting/

Costa Rica is far smaller than the uk yet it hosts a 5th of the earths biodiversity. The new State of Nature report shows our biodiversity decline is amongst the worst in the world - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-attenborough_uk_57d81941e4b0614ca6be5381

Costa Rica is a progressive country - it is moving forwards while we are marching backwards - unravelling hard fought gains.

And lastly, have you heard of the Happy Planet Index?. This is what it measures: The *Happy Planet Index* measures what matters: sustainable wellbeing for all. It tells us how well nations are doing at achieving long, happy, sustainable lives.

Guess which country once again ranks top?  http://happyplanetindex.org/

*Costa Rica* has again topped the Happy Planet Index rankings with a substantial lead - having previously come top in our 2009 and 2012 editions. This tropical Central-American country is home to the greatest density of species in the world. Costa Rica's GDP per capita is less than a quarter of the size of many Western European and North American countries, and is primarily based on tourism, agriculture and exports.

People living in Costa Rica have higher wellbeing than the residents of many rich nations, including the USA and the UK, and live longer than people in the USA. And all of this is achieved with a per capita Ecological Footprint that's just one third of the size of the USA's.

*What's working well in Costa Rica?*
Costa Rica abolished its army in 1949, and has since reallocated army funds to be spent on education, health and pensions . In 2012, Costa Rica invested more in education and health as a proportion of Gross Domestic Product than the UK. Professor Mariano Rojas, a Costa Rican economist at the Latin American Faculty of Social Sciences, attributes Costa Ricans' high wellbeing to a culture of forming solid social networks of friends, families and neighbourhoods.

Costa Rica is also a world leader when it comes to environmental protection. The Costa Rican government uses taxes collected on the sale of fossil fuels to pay for the protection of forests.

In 2015, the country was able to produce 99% of its electricity from renewable sources, and the government continues to invest in renewable energy generation in an effort to meet its goal of becoming carbon neutral by 2021.

*What could be improved?*
Income inequality in Costa Rica is particularly high - in part because Costa Rica's tax system does not effectively redistribute wealth across the population. And while Costa Rica's commitment to environmental sustainability is impressive, its Ecological Footprint isn't yet small enough to be completely sustainable.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Muttly said:


> I feel claustrophobic in this country now. Every square of green, woodland is being made into houses or sports pitches  We are bursting at the seems, I hate it here.


Too many migrants...

lol

oops

take cover


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Some pretty pictures.... means nowt though does it


----------



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> *I used feel proud when we were moving forwards* on social, environmental and animal welfare issues - not backwards like we are now. I was proud that we were an inclusive and compassionate country - not the increasingly divisive and dangerously nationalistic one we are becoming.
> 
> I didn't say Costa Rica was perfect but its people have far, far more to be proud about than we do of our country. And something you need to bear in mind is there is another huge difference between that country & ours. Costa Rica is a developing country, we, on the other hand, are one of the wealthiest countries in the planet . Thanks to austerity (a political choice) we have seen a 55% rise in homelessness. Sharp rise in poverty, with child poverty set to rise by 50%. Over a million more people using foodbanks. Britain may have a better health service at the moment, but surely you must be aware its now on the verge of collapse?. We have the money to solve these problems( we'll have a hell of a lot less soon when we brexit however.)
> 
> ...


Yes, but _exactly _when was this time that you were proud to be British and we were all the things you say we were?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

stuaz said:


> I think that's subjective tbh based on where you live as some parts of the midlands for example, it's hard to tell where one town ends and the other begins. Where I live in the south there is loads of greenery though and the majority of my 15 mile commute is through open fields.


But it wont stay like that for long . Corbyn wants to build a million houses and the planning laws are being relaxed ...


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> But it wont stay like that for long . * Corbyn wants to build a million houses* and the planning laws are being relaxed ...


Hope some of these are more 1-2 bed places to house all the people evicted due to bedroom tax or who can't afford to stay in their bigger homes anymore and as the elderly are going to be hit with BT too they'll all be needing 1 bed 'disabled-friendly' housing (ie level access, accessible shower rooms) given that they aren't going to get any younger! Some older friends of my parents are really worried about this bedroom tax as they live in the family home that the kids have all moved out of now so have 3 'spare rooms' so are facing downsizing but all the new properties build near them are 3-4 bed places on posh looking housing estates.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Some older friends of my parents are really worried about this bedroom tax as they live in the family home that the kids have all moved out of now so have 3 'spare rooms' so are facing downsizing but all the new properties build near them are 3-4 bed places on posh looking housing estates.


If a couple both over retirement age are on HB then all the rent is covered...


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Hope some of these are more 1-2 bed places to house all the people evicted due to bedroom tax or who can't afford to stay in their bigger homes anymore and as the elderly are going to be hit with BT too they'll all be needing 1 bed 'disabled-friendly' housing (ie level access, accessible shower rooms) given that they aren't going to get any younger! Some older friends of my parents are really worried about this bedroom tax as they live in the family home that the kids have all moved out of now so have 3 'spare rooms' so are facing downsizing but all the new properties build near them are 3-4 bed places on posh looking housing estates.


Yes absolutely, We need much more social housing generally but certainly need more smaller places .


----------



## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Colliebarmy said:


> If a couple both over retirement age are on HB then all the rent is covered...


Not now due to the benefit cap some pensioners will be affected.

"For all general needs tenants whose tenancies started after 1 April 2016, housing benefit entitlement will be limited to the relevant LHA cap from 2018. This is calculated on the basis of household size and composition rather than the size of the property occupied, following a similar set of rules used for identifying under-occupation under the 'bedroom tax'. So taking the example of Mary, a single pensioner living in a 2 bedroom bungalow and paying a rent of £87.50 in Carlisle, rather than meeting her rent in full, housing benefit would now cover only £80.55"

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/a-pensioner-bedroom-tax/7016400.article

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...g-housing-crisis-council-houses-a7340136.html


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> But it wont stay like that for long . Corbyn wants to build a million houses and the planning laws are being relaxed ...


He will need to get into power first and I can't see that happening any time soon.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> Too many migrants...
> 
> lol
> 
> ...


Swap them for expats then.

They would be overjoyed to be back...

Build walls high enough so no one gets in.
Or out.


----------



## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

How about moving to good ol' US of A? I would wait until the result of the election before moving to the states, though...


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> So taking the example of Mary, a single pensioner living in a 2 bedroom bungalow and paying a rent of £87.50 in Carlisle, rather than meeting her rent in full, housing benefit would now cover only £80.55"


I've never known a pensioner get their full rent covered, have you?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I assume that example is social housing , I'm not sure what the rent is here for a 2 bed bungalow, a two bed flat in tower block is I think about £120.
Private renting would be double that .


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> Swap them for expats then.
> 
> They would be overjoyed to be back...
> 
> ...


Have you noticed how it's always the same old bleedin' stuck 78 with CB. Migrants. Refugees. Foreigners.
To him it's the unholy trinity. They have to be cast down, cast out and exorcised.

I just wish someone would give the old gramophone a kick and move the track on.

Be gone evil spirit!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Some pretty pictures.... means nowt though does it


Means nowt to you because you don't give a toss about our finite natural world.



samuelsmiles said:


> *Yes*, but _exactly _when was this time that you were proud to be British and we were all the things you say we were?


_"Yes, but".... _As I said Costa Rica _is a_ progressive country 

I don't have an _exact_ date lol. There were always things that made me proud to be British, things that made me ashamed. However, these past few years I have felt ever increasing shame, until I'm at the point I have _never_ been _more_ ashamed. Don't you ever feel ashamed of our country? How about the Iraq war? The destruction of Libya?

How do these make you feel ...proud to be British? --

Scathing UN report on how our most vulnerable are being made to suffer - http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2016...oportionately-uk-austerity-measures-un-warns/

Persecution of once protected species for vested interests - https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-cull-bovine-tuberculosis-tb?CMP=share_btn_tw

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...licence-kill-slaughter-wildlife-natural-world

Fracking - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...acking-decision-is-nothing-short-of-hypocrisy

41% rise in hate crime - https://www.ft.com/content/9b2ec1a6-912c-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78

A government stoking dangerous nationalism - http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...owing-enoch-powell--by-actually-listening-to/



kimthecat said:


> But it wont stay like that for long . Corbyn wants to build a million houses and the planning laws are being relaxed ...


You're worried about Corbyn? Seriously? Have you not heard about the infrastructure bill Kim? Laws haven't just been relaxed they have been ripped up! Theres plenty of info on the bill.. Here are a few links. http://saveourwoods.co.uk/articles/...iaments-new-chainsaw-the-infrastructure-bill/ https://www.foe.co.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/fracking-infrastructure-bill-74789.pdf http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2447901/save_our_public_lands_and_forests.html


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> You're worried about Corbyn? Seriously? Have you not heard about the infrastructure bill Kim? Laws haven't just been relaxed they have been ripped up! Theres plenty of info on the bill.. Here are a few links. http://saveourwoods.co.uk/articles/...iaments-new-chainsaw-the-infrastructure-bill/ https://www.foe.co.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/fracking-infrastructure-bill-74789.pdf http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2447901/save_our_public_lands_and_forests.html


 So I shouldn't be worried that a million houses are going to be built . Righty ho ! That's not gong to destroy any countryside is it.
You confess to being an eco warior but you seem pretty choosy to me you seem to pick and choose what suits you .


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> So I shouldn't be worried that a million houses are going to be built . Righty ho ! That's not gong to destroy any countryside is it.
> You confess to being an eco warior but you seem pretty choosy to me you seem to pick and choose what suits you .


I pick the LEAST damaging side Kim. - http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/2985050/the_ecologist_is_for_corbyn.html


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Have you noticed how it's always the same old bleedin' stuck 78 with CB. Migrants. Refugees. Foreigners.
> To him it's the unholy trinity. They have to be cast down, cast out and exorcised.
> 
> I just wish someone would give the old gramophone a kick and move the track on.
> ...


Oh. No.
Not at all.
CB represents millions.
Then if I say anything about xenophobia and Brexit I am told that I am insulting etc..
Racism etc...
And then there is our good ole CB.

His name is legion @Zaros .

I would never hit ignore button.
This is where Cameron went wrong.

CB is a loudspeaker for many who in heart of heart think just the same and while may not word it this way...when it matters this is how they would go

( mean no one in particular, present company duly excused).

Do give you ear to our CB.
He is at the coalface after all.

And I prefer his honest blunt opinions to those who vehemently deny...


----------



## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

If we were to all leave, then we'd have little power left to change. Well, I hope so. Each day the post Brexit fall out gets worse. It's so sad and shambolic really.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> CB. His name is legion @Zaros .
> 
> I would never hit ignore button..


The ignore button, Scrippy, is not something I would ever consider.

There's enough censorship/deprivation in this world without willfully inflicting it upon myself.:Muted

Besides, you have no idea how humbled I am when some of our more learned members bestow upon me the privilege of their priceless wit&wisdom.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

The moaners are welcome to leave

im fact make em leave i say


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> So I shouldn't be worried that a million houses are going to be built . Righty ho ! That's not gong to destroy any countryside is it.
> You confess to being an eco warior but you seem pretty choosy to me you seem to pick and choose what suits you .


await the uproar from the NIMBY brigade


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Have you noticed how it's always the same old bleedin' stuck 78 with CB. Migrants. Refugees. Foreigners.
> To him it's the unholy trinity. They have to be cast down, cast out and exorcised.
> 
> I just wish someone would give the old gramophone a kick and move the track on.
> ...


the opposing view to yours might seem abhorrent and distasteful but when you win thats fine?

If we dont leave after a democratic vote we may as well live in North Korea


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Wish I were still young enough to consider moving somewhere far away with a decent climate but I'm now seriously considering Ireland - the south, not the north.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> The moaners are welcome to leave
> 
> im fact make em leave i say


@Zaros already left.

And is seems you CB are most willing to make me Spanish.

As to North Korea... Hmmm...

We will see how post Brexit shapes up...and if the the Leave brigade won't sack Tories and put Corbyn in.
Then we might be talking....

Pound falling well below euro and dollar is a sure way to get rid of EU workers...

And sure way to have property market flooded by buyers from non EU..
Russia, China and so on...

No one can say how things will turn out in far future , though from eco point of view it is grim...

For next decade or two the predictions for UK are of slowing down and recession again..

Not good for anyone 40 plus...
It might get better, it might not but you will not ever know...


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh. No.
> Not at all.
> CB represents millions.
> Then if I say anything about xenophobia and Brexit I am told that I am insulting etc..
> ...


See though, after some time it just gets really repetitive as it's just the same old stuff... he reminds me of the random guys on the street with cardboard signs saying "God's wrath is up on us!!!!!" and "The big brother is watching us!!!!". First you find it amusing and are worried about the person... then you get used to them and just stop noticing them. Or alternatively, if you don't have patience, put them on ignore to save some of your own nerves.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> @Zaros already left.
> 
> And sure way to have property market flooded by buyers from non EU..
> Russia, China and so on...
> ...


 Err, it already is !


----------



## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

I love the UK, especially Northern England and Scotland. I have no intention of moving away from the UK. I already live in a beautiful and remote area and can walk my dogs most days and never see another soul. However, I have hills and a reservoir and I have a hankering for mountains and lochs, so will eventually move northwards to the Highlands, where my plans are already in place as I own a cottage in a beautiful, remote Highland glen. 

The weather does occasionally make me wish for drier, warmer climes but I think I would quickly become homesick.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

shadowmare said:


> See though, after some time it just gets really repetitive as it's just the same old stuff... he reminds me of the random guys on the street with cardboard signs saying "God's wrath is up on us!!!!!" and "The big brother is watching us!!!!". First you find it amusing and are worried about the person... then you get used to them and just stop noticing them. Or alternatively, if you don't have patience, put them on ignore to save some of your own nerves.


No.

Cannot ignore. 
Not if there are millions of them feeding of each other.

Plus I have genuine respect for that at least he is in your face and not behind your back.

In RL I would probably even like him.
Tough old bird he is.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> If we dont leave after a democratic vote we may as well in North Korea


May as well what.........in North Korea?

Democracy does not rule the world. You'd better get that in your head; this world is ruled by violence. (Bob Dylan)



cheekyscrip said:


> *@Zaros already left*.
> ..


Cheeky Scrippy

Oh, by the way Scrippy, can't you just see the day when fleets of black Volgas prowl the streets of London, and politicians won't sit down to coffee in cafes without a geiger counter, whilst other MPs hurriedly cross over the road the moment they're approached by men wearing dark glasses carrying particularly suspicious looking umbrellas


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Zaros said:


> May as well what.........in North Korea?
> 
> Democracy does not rule the world. You'd better get that in your head; this world is ruled by violence. (Bob Dylan)
> 
> ...



View attachment 286886

That is the only one I have.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 286886
> 
> That is the only one I have.
> View attachment 286887
> View attachment 286891


The only what, you have?

Tall dark stranger or modified umbrella?

If it's the latter, then you can't scare me.

I smoke cigarettes :Finger


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Zaros said:


> The only what, you have?
> 
> Tall dark stranger or modified umbrella?
> 
> ...


I speak fluent Russian...it is a subtle hint...


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> I speak fluent Russian...it is a subtle hint...


Yes. Demitri tells me you are very good with the 'Youth in Asia':Nurse


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Yes. Demitri tells me you are very good with the 'Youth in Asia':Nurse


The old Mary Poppins me...


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> The old Mary Poppins me...


And this ^^^ little confession in itself is the reason why I have declined your kind hospitality on so many occasions.

Not to mention the way you're always menacingly singing; 'A spoonful of sugar helps the polonium 210 go down':Wideyed


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> the opposing view to yours might seem abhorrent and distasteful but when you win thats fine?
> 
> If we dont leave after a democratic vote we may as well live in North Korea


Nothing about this utter shambles is democratic. The hypocrisy of people like you is staggering, you have no respect for democracy if you believe we should be dragged out of the single market by an unelected government without a parliamentary vote.

This authoritarian government is already trying to curtail our free speech. Dissenters will be punished???. We have the beginnings of a fascist state.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...rship-will-be-punished-vows-John-Redwood.html


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> I speak fluent Russian...it is a subtle hint...


Do you really Cheeky?  How cool is that! I can't even speak English lol


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Do you really Cheeky?  How cool is that! I can't even speak English lol


It helps. Yesterday in repair shop I found out the guy is from Russia. So the phone would be resurrected. 
Df very happy. Initially he said cannot mend it.
But I was taught Russian under duress...

@noushka
People do not know what they got themselves into.

They still think crashing pound is a good thing...

As to migration because of Brexit..

Any idea where 30 k Gibraltarian British can go with their non EU British passport if thanks to your vote they lost their jobs and cannot live of grey mullet only?

Taking their children and pets?

Or I would make a thread on Rainbow Bridge for those that cannot be taken.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Yes absolutely, We need much more social housing generally but certainly need more smaller places .


Agree.

I think the social housing system does need a shake up though.

It shouldn't be seen as a "house for life" as there are many properties being occupied by people who are financially able to move on, making way for the less fortunate among us.

The abuse of the system by the unscrupulous too, is huge.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> It helps. Yesterday in repair shop I found out the guy is from Russia. So the phone would be resurrected.
> Df very happy. Initially he said cannot mend it.
> But I was taught Russian under duress...
> 
> ...


When the NHS is gone & the cost of living goes through the roof & we have less rights than we had in the EU maybe some people will reflect.










I'm very frightened for the future, so goodness knows how you all must be feeling on the rock. I'm worried for all of us it will affect, for the animals, for nature. This will have a massive knock on effect right across the board. Scary times Cheeky ((hugs)))


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> When the NHS is gone & the cost of living goes through the roof & we have less rights than we had in the EU maybe some people will reflect.
> 
> View attachment 286961
> 
> ...


We will be so welcome with all that suntan and speaking Yanito...I am sure...

Collateral damage. This is what we are.

It is not Spain who is destroying us..

It is Britain. After over 300 years of faithful service.

Like kicking out you dog when other things come up.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> People do not know what they got themselves into.
> 
> They still think crashing pound is a good thing...


Nobody does. Not really. It will take seven years, give or take, before we know.

Worth the punt though sometimes doing the right thing is just the right thing to do.

Me; I like to think I was epistemically rational. Don't we all? Maybe not so cynical as you think?

But..... Inadvertently instrumentally rationale too, if the pound should continue its beautiful free fall. I was good in a previous life maybe?


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> The hypocrisy of people like you is staggering, you have no respect for democracy if you believe we should be dragged out of the single market by an unelected government without a parliamentary vote.l


Oh the irony is unbearable.

The hypocrisy of people like you is staggering, you have no respect for democracy if you believe we should continue to be subjugated to the tyranny of the single market against the directly expressed will of the majority of the population in a referendum.

There are several bigoted hypocrites on this thread. @Colliebarmy isn't one of them.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


> Nobody does. Not really. It will take seven years, give or take, before we know.
> 
> Worth the punt though sometimes doing the right thing is just the right thing to do.
> 
> ...


Doubt it.



Satori said:


> Oh the irony is unbearable.
> 
> The hypocrisy of people like you is staggering, you have no respect for democracy if you believe we should continue to be subjugated to the tyranny of the single market against the directly expressed will of the majority of the population in a referendum.
> 
> There are several bigoted hypocrites on this thread. @Colliebarmy isn't one of them.


There is no mandate for leaving the single market. (And haven't you suddenly changed your tune on the matter? ) http://www.comresglobal.com/polls/bbc-news-brexit-expectations-poll/

*Most Britons think that maintaining access to the single market should be the priority for the Government when negotiating the UK's withdrawal from the EU (66%),*


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Satori said:


> Oh the irony is unbearable.
> 
> The hypocrisy of people like you is staggering, you have no respect for democracy if you believe we should continue to be subjugated to the tyranny of the single market against the directly expressed will of the majority of the population in a referendum.
> 
> There are several bigoted hypocrites on this thread. @Colliebarmy isn't one of them.


And here is one of the biggest lies of the leave campaign. Democracy. The EU is democratic. What you have voted for when voting leave is less influence and back room deals with no say in the matter.

http://theconversation.com/how-democratic-is-the-european-union-59419

http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/

Simple answer of course to resolve all these issues. Second referendum including minimum terms acceptable. Only then we'd now get a vote not to leave. This wouldn't be acceptable to those shouting about democracy.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

What an awful place to exist in. To want Brexit to fail just to 'prove a point.' - continually scouring the internet for evidence of a country falling apart, of better places to live.

I really couldn't imagine such a negative, self destructive place. I think most Remainers have moved on but....but as a Brexit supporter my words are hollow - just rhetoric.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> What an awful place to exist in. To want Brexit to fail just to 'prove a point.' - continually scouring the internet for evidence of a country falling apart, of better places to live.


Who wants BREXIT to fail to prove a point? We don't want BREXIT as it will damage the country and gain nothing. If BREXIT does happen then people want to minimise the damage. Of course BREXIT itself is simply a meaningless label as it means totally different things to different people and nobody can explain the advantages based on facts.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Who wants BREXIT to fail to prove a point? We don't want BREXIT as it will damage the country and gain nothing. If BREXIT does happen then people want to minimise the damage. Of course BREXIT itself is simply a meaningless label as it means totally different things to different people and nobody can explain the advantages based on facts.


Ok. You don't, I do. (for my personal reasons that, yes, may well differ from others.) Why should my opinion/vote be ignored, why did I take that walk to the polling station to put my cross in that box for genuine reasons that I believed could make this country better.

And what absolute and incontrovertible proof do you have that it will damage this country - that my opinion is wrong? How can you have absolute proof that this is so? I have no absolute proof that it will make this country better - what I do know is I was given the freedom and the right to have my voice heard.

Remember the _true _Fascists of the '30's. We made bloody sure they didn't get anywhere near government.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> Ok. You don't, I do. (for my personal reasons that, yes, may well differ from others.) Why should my opinion/vote be ignored, why did I take that walk to the polling station to put my cross in that box for genuine reasons that I believed could make this country better.


Who said anything about ignoring you? You voted in a non-binding referendum to express opinion. Nothing wrong with that. Seems to me anyone querying the decision to leave is wrong and should shut up. At least we are prepared to justify the reasoning.



> And what absolute and incontrovertible proof do you have that it will damage this country - that my opinion is wrong?


Well we could start by the damage already happening which was forceast by experts but denied by the leave campaign (Gove.. we've had enough of experts). Remind me again, how essential item price rises helps the majority of people? Essentials like food and fuel to start with. Explain how losing research capabilities helps the UK? Why don't you explain the advantages of leaving with facts, not wishes instead of avoiding the issue?



> Remember the _true _Fascists of the '30's. We made bloody sure they didn't get anywhere near government.


Really, things like pushing things through without parliamentary debate? Like blaming minorities for problems, encouraging xenophobia, like keeping tabs on certain "classes" of people. Seem to have seen more of this in the UK since those who pushing for brexit have been in ascendancy.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Who said anything about ignoring you? *You voted in a non-binding referendum to express opinion*. Nothing wrong with that. Seems to me anyone querying the decision to leave is wrong and should shut up. At least we are prepared to justify the reasoning.
> 
> Well we could start by the damage already happening which was forceast by experts but denied by the leave campaign (Gove.. we've had enough of experts). Remind me again, how essential item price rises helps the majority of people? Essentials like food and fuel to start with. Explain how losing research capabilities helps the UK? Why don't you explain the advantages of leaving with facts, not wishes instead of avoiding the issue?
> 
> Really, things like pushing things through without parliamentary debate? Like blaming minorities for problems, encouraging xenophobia, like keeping tabs on certain "classes" of people. Seem to have seen more of this in the UK since those who pushing for brexit have been in ascendancy.


Well, I didn't know that when I put my cross in the box to leave - it wasn't made clear at the time that it would mean jack-shit. And I didn't once hear about it being non-binding prior to the vote - on this forum or anywhere.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Brexit is the worst idea British had since got into war with America over taxation.

And if not three years seven.months of Great Siege of Gibraltar that tied Spain and France and exhausted their finances...
They planned to take over Gibraltar and then attack Britain.

It might have worked as Navy was tied over the ocean..


So those who warned against war with America and were accepting
Americans as MPs and giving them access to House of Lords ,
wanted Britain to fail?

" We do not want those effing immigrants among us" prevailed.


And those who wanted America to.pay taxes and have no say wanted Britain Great?

Well that option went ahead...America got independence, Malta was lost...Britain was in grave danger.

We do not moan. It is not lost election.

This is a very bad decision for Britain, EU and democracy.


Do you think that in country that imports more than exports currency might fall by one-third and prices will.not go up?


Wait till New Year.

I do not want Great Britain to fail, not Brexit.

Brexit will make most people poorer and Britain weaker.

Same as delusional war with America and trying to rule them from Westminster.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

It was well known before the referendum that it wasn't binding and some media stated the point. Simple thing to highlight Parliament is sovereign. The Guardian stated before the election referencing the fact that no referendums are binding:



> An exception was the 2011 referendum on changing the electoral system to alternative vote, where the relevant legislation obligated the government to change the law to reflect a "yes" vote had that occurred. No such provision was contained within the EU referendum legislation.


Even the wiki on referendums stated before the vote that:


> Referendums are not legally binding, so legally the Government can ignore the results; for example, even if the result of a pre-legislative referendum were a majority of "No" for a proposed law, Parliament could pass it anyway, because parliament is sovereign.


Information was there and available. I challenge you to find any article which pushes the fact the referendum is binding written before the referendum.

Your comment on being clear is a bit of a joke isn't it. If you only accepted things being clear let only true the leave campaign wouldn't have a leg to stand on. As it is, how is it clear that brexit is leaving the single market? How is it clear that brexit would mean removing the idea of free movement? Looking at it, how is it clear what leaving actually means?


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

*Bit of an update.
*
I'm off to my new countryside residence soon - I'll take a photograph of a sunset from my back garden to cheer you up.

Bleedin' communists.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Still no positive facts on leaving I notice samuelsmiles.

Instead we get the result of the first of what will probably be long line of challenges. Royal prerogative being used to bypass invenience by an unelected leader and cabinet. You mentioned facism I believe.

So we hand in article 50. We leave the EU. What does that mean? We can retain free movement, can retain single market, can pay fees but have no say in the EU and that still matches the definition of leave. What have we gained again?

For your information:


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

We're leaving - get over it.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Still no positive facts on leaving I notice samuelsmiles.
> 
> Instead we get the result of the first of what will probably be long line of challenges. Royal prerogative being used to bypass invenience by an unelected leader and cabinet. You mentioned facism I believe.
> 
> ...


"You can tick 'out' any time you like. But you can never leave.".......


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Magnus said:


> We're leaving - get over it.


Strange I thought we were in a democracy where policies can change, especially if they harm the nation.



samuelsmiles said:


> *Bit of an update.*


Just noticed who was saying this, May's effective lawyer says.. Wonder what the judge will make of it.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Sums it up quite well.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Can anyone show any estimates that can prove Brexit can

benefit Britain as such and show how it would be made stronger, richer, more ecofriendly, safer and more democratic?

That it would benefit more than rich establishment than might get richer exploiting falling pound etc..?

Margallo officially demanded to surrender Gibraltar.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Can anyone show any estimates that can prove Brexit can
> 
> benefit Britain as such and show how it would be made stronger, richer, more ecofriendly, safer and more democratic?
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone can prove beyond doubt ether leaving or staying can be good or bad. That's what's crap about the whole thing tbh. No one knows.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stuaz said:


> I don't think anyone can prove beyond doubt ether leaving or staying can be good or bad. That's what's crap about the whole thing tbh. No one knows.


Pretty sure people whose lives are already getting affected can tell you quite a few negatives. One of them - losing jobs.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Can anyone show any estimates that can prove Brexit can
> 
> benefit Britain as such and show how it would be made stronger, richer, more ecofriendly, safer and more democratic?
> 
> ...


No. Obviously. But nobody can show any estimates that prove the contrary either.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

shadowmare said:


> Pretty sure people whose lives are already getting affected can tell you quite a few negatives. One of them - losing jobs.


Omelettes, eggs etc.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

shadowmare said:


> Pretty sure people whose lives are already getting affected can tell you quite a few negatives. One of them - losing jobs.


Indeed, but then I also know of two companies that I will not name, that are using brexit as an excuse to cut heads so they can move certain operations overseas. Not because of brexit, but because it's cheaper.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Nothing will be brexit's fault to those who support it. We've seen it already with excuses about the exchange rate amongst other things.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Nothing will be brexit's fault to those who support it. We've seen it already with excuses about the exchange rate amongst other things.


On the flip side though anything bad that happens in the next 10 years will be blamed on Brexit regardless.

Goes both ways really.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Nothing will be brexit's fault to those who support it. We've seen it already with excuses about the exchange rate amongst other things.


No it will be ours Goblin. The hard Brexiteers are preparing excuses for the coming chaos by blaming us 'Remoaners'.


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

The only problem with Brexit is the tedious moaning from those that LOST the vote.
The rest is gravy baby. It's all good.
Exchange rate is good, we don't need excuses, far from it; it's been far too high for far too long, the drop helps to balance the trade deficit, promotes exports for exporters, promotes domestic purchases as against foreign market purchases for British businesses and consumers, encourages UK companies to expand their sales abroad where it may have been non-viable before.
Inflation going up is good, zero or negligible inflation does nothing to help the economy. The Government's target for inflation has been 2.5% for ages finally we are making progress. Nobody feels the need to make _that_ purchase when they know it will be the same price in 3 months time.
Basic economics but, at the same time, fodder for the moaners who like to look on the negative side of everything.

Personally I see the incessant whinging of the Remoaners as confirmation that it was right to vote OUT - if they are unhappy with the result it has to be right!


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## Jessybooboo (Oct 14, 2016)

Canada, Scottish Isles, Isle of Man, Republic of Ireland,

Depends on your reasons for emigration, crime (the lack of Human Resources), housing prices and low wages would be mine. I feel that uncontrolled immigration adds pressure to all theses things. Long term I believe that leaving the EU would give my children a chance of getting a well paid job, owning a house and getting a doctors appointment in under 3-4 weeks.
Bankers/ trade/ single markets/ inflation/ GDP is just blah blah blah to a lot of us, we only care about the stretched resources that we experience everyday, we don't make the connection between the two. Or we know they are connected but don't mind short term pain for long term gain.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Magnus said:


> *The only problem with Brexit is the tedious moaning from those that LOST the vote.*





> *
> Basic economics but, at the same time, fodder for the moaners who like to look on the negative side of everything.
> 
> Personally I see the incessant whinging of the Remoaners as confirmation that it was right to vote OUT - if they are unhappy with the result it has to be right! *


Totally agree.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Magnus said:


> The only problem with Brexit is the tedious moaning from those that LOST the vote.
> The rest is gravy baby. It's all good.
> Exchange rate is good, we don't need excuses, far from it; it's been far too high for far too long, the drop helps to balance the trade deficit, promotes exports for exporters, promotes domestic purchases as against foreign market purchases for British businesses and consumers, encourages UK companies to expand their sales abroad where it may have been non-viable before.
> Inflation going up is good, zero or negligible inflation does nothing to help the economy. The Government's target for inflation has been 2.5% for ages finally we are making progress. Nobody feels the need to make _that_ purchase when they know it will be the same price in 3 months time.
> ...


I didn't simply lose a referendum. I lost a job. But hey, in a couple of years there will be plenty of those going right? I'll just get on benefits until then...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Let's see UK extradition treaty.. totally reciprical right? Uk government wanted TTIP when EU government didn't for american trade deal.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

samuelsmiles said:


> I'm very content living in England but now, according to some, this country is decending in to such an appalling pit of facist, racist uncaring horribleness where would be a good country to migrate to?
> 
> Where would this be - where you could actually find a little contentment?
> 
> I always thought New Zealand looked a little like paradise, but it is a bit pricey.


Would you upend your entire life and move to a different country, just because of the minority who didn't get their own way over Brexit? Seriously? I know that to emigrate to Australia or NZ you need to pass a English test, even if you are English. My friend's daughter has just had to do it. You also need a profession that they are short of and then you might be restricted to certain areas.

I think you had better go to Spain while you still can. Personally, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I love England and I am one who would want to stay and use my voting powers to make things better, not abandon ship at the first sign of things not going my way. Otherwise I would have emigrated at the first whiff of Tony Blair as prime minister.


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## Jessybooboo (Oct 14, 2016)

shadowmare said:


> I didn't simply lose a referendum. I lost a job. But hey, in a couple of years there will be plenty of those going right? I'll just get on benefits until then...


While I sympathise with you about this many of us have had to leave our 40 hour low paid jobs to get a 60 hour low paid job because wages are so low because European workers are happy to work for low wages as they house share or are in receipt of benefits.

I used to be a cleaner (to supplement low income) working with an eastern European guy he used to do just enough hours to claim WTC, housing benefit, Child tax credits etc. He asked me to help in fill out the forms. He was claiming more money than he was earning, he thought his daughters school should give his daughter more support because she didn't understand English. Schools really struggle to support these pupils on top of British SEND pupils who then don't get the support they need as resources are spent elsewhere. He also stole bits and bobs and told me if I wanted a credit card he could get me one. Sadly that's just some of my experiences. He also had the cheek to moan that when his wife gave birth as she was only in hospital for 1 night and how terrible it was because in his country they stay in for a week. I just don't see how this can be financially sustained, especially when in my experience they are having more children than the average Britain. Had to bite my toungue about why the hospitals are so over stretched!

I am trying to look at the bigger picture.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jonnie Irwin's view

https://www.aplaceinthesun.com/articles/2016/10/a-place-in-the-sun-presenters-discuss-brexit

The pound rallied a tiny bit last night .
I was surprised that also the Euro and US Dollar had dropped too.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/pound-falling-again-062730278.html
Oscar Williams-Grut 
"The pound is rallying in early morning trade in London on Wednesday.

Sterling gained on the dollar and euro on Tuesday thanks to a weak dollar and the return of inflation prompting traders to bet against a November interest rate cut from the Bank of England. But the pound fell against the dollar and euro in Asian trade on Wednesday, reverting to type over the last fortnight.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/pound-falling-again-062730278.html
Thankfully, sterling is staging a comeback against the dollar after starting to reduce losses at around 7.30 a.m. BST (2.30 a.m. ET). It then got a major boost from UK unemployment figures, which show unemployment remained at the near-record low of 4.7% despite Brexit. "

BBC ceefax says Septembers inflation was due in part to clothes , petrol and hotels being more expensive.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jessybooboo said:


> While I sympathise with you about this many of us have had to leave our 40 hour low paid jobs to get a 60 hour low paid job because wages are so low as European workers are happy to work for low wages as they house share or are in receipt of benefits.


Thing is, EU migrants are not automatically entitled to claim benefits in the UK or another Member State from the moment they step off the plane, train or ferry. In fact, EU rules require migrants to meet stringent requirements before they can be eligible either for means tested "social assistance" benefits like housing benefit and income support or for social security benefits like child benefit, invalidity benefit or contribution-based Jobseekers' Allowance. EU workers arriving in the UK can remain in the UK for three months, but if they do not get a job within that time and if they do not have sufficient financial means to support themselves, then they cannot stay, let alone claim benefits. EU citizens will only pass the EU habitual residence test if they have genuinely moved their centre of interests to the UK and have lived in the UK for a considerable period of time.

So you then have an immigrant who actually is employment as in your example. The key thing is you cannot discriminate with benefits. How is that unfair?

In the 1980's there was a television series called Auf Wiedersehen Pet about seven migrant workers in Germany as we were the "immigrants". It's not always one way. Let me raise another thing for consideration.. what is the difference between the words "expat" and "immigrant"? True expat is looked at in a positive light yet it is really the same thing.

Statistically speaking the majority of EU immigrants are not in low paid jobs. You are looking at people in well paid jobs, for example doctors. Even from eastern europe more than %25 of recent arrivals are coming in with degrees applying for jobs appropriate to that education level. EU immigrants add £20billion to the economy looking at the balance, tax income vs benefits output and that's not looking at the money they actually spend in the community. It's been estimated that the UK would need to spend an additional £6.8bn on education to achieve some parity with the employment requirement. Despite prejudice european migrants are generally more highly educated than the UK-born workforce and they are less likely to be in receipt of state benefits. They have to be motivated to move in the first place I guess.

Now let's also consider Germany and the US. Both have a high number of immigrant entrepreneurs who not only directly add the the economy but also create jobs for the native population. 2014 it's estimated that 1.3 million jobs were created by "immigrants" in Germany.

We can then look at another aspect:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/rob-davidson/international-students_b_12517184.html

So can anyone provide facts and statistics on the reasoning against free movement?


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Jessybooboo said:


> While I sympathise with you about this many of us have had to leave our 40 hour low paid jobs to get a 60 hour low paid job because wages are so low because European workers are happy to work for low wages as they house share or are in receipt of benefits.
> 
> I used to be a cleaner (to supplement low income) working with an eastern European guy he used to do just enough hours to claim WTC, housing benefit, Child tax credits etc. He asked me to help in fill out the forms. He was claiming more money than he was earning, he thought his daughters school should give his daughter more support because she didn't understand English. Schools really struggle to support these pupils on top of British SEND pupils who then don't get the support they need as resources are spent elsewhere. He also stole bits and bobs and told me if I wanted a credit card he could get me one. Sadly that's just some of my experiences. He also had the cheek to moan that when his wife gave birth as she was only in hospital for 1 night and how terrible it was because in his country they stay in for a week. I just don't see how this can be financially sustained, especially when in my experience they are having more children than the average Britain. Had to bite my toungue about why the hospitals are so over stretched!
> 
> I am trying to look at the bigger picture.


I'm a European worker. I used to work 48hrs for minimum wage. I often had to work extra 10 hrs when the British colleagues didn't show up for work after partying all night. I now also work in schools with pupils with various needs. Children who are learning English are the least of their problems.
People who believe that changes to immigration will be a miracle cure to unemployment live in some parallel universe. I got my wellpaid job because I was qualified more than other applicants. Not because I was an EU immigrant. I can't wait to see locals queue up for all the low paid jobs when the immigration is limited only to highly skilled force. But that won't happen because they will continue moaning about how low the pay is. Meanwhile what will happen with the jobs that require qualifications? Will the employer now be more inclined to hire a local brittish born with lower qualifications? I'd guess that it will most likely lead to employers just advertising jobs abroad to better qualified prospects... "They will be forced to provide more training for the local force to get locals qualified for these positions" I hear you say? Ah yes, for what money? The funds that also should be used to raise the wages of low paid jobs to attract more local people?


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Jessybooboo said:


> He also had the cheek to moan that when his wife gave birth as she was only in hospital for 1 night and how terrible it was because in his country they stay in for a week.


Considering that British tourists are well known for complaining about the number of German or Russian tourists in their hotels and the lack or poor quality of English breakfast when they're on holidays in Spain, I can't see how this is cheeky? I've never been pregnant but I do come from a country where the new mother definitely gets more than one day in the hospital. I was shocked when I found out that my colleague got sent home a few hours after giving birth. I would definitely be shocked too if I just gave birth and was told that I need to go hom the next morning if I was used to a different system and not familiar to the local one.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ns-seeking-citizenship-eu-states-brexit-looms
:Hilarious


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ns-seeking-citizenship-eu-states-brexit-looms
> :Hilarious


Yes this maybe the case but I wonder how many will be rejected as they don't have dual nationalship with the country they are seeking citizenship in?


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## Jessybooboo (Oct 14, 2016)

shadowmare said:


> I'm a European worker. I used to work 48hrs for minimum wage. I often had to work extra 10 hrs when the British colleagues didn't show up for work after partying all night. I now also work in schools with pupils with various needs. Children who are learning English are the least of their problems.
> People who believe that changes to immigration will be a miracle cure to unemployment live in some parallel universe. I got my wellpaid job because I was qualified more than other applicants. Not because I was an EU immigrant. I can't wait to see locals queue up for all the low paid jobs when the immigration is limited only to highly skilled force. But that won't happen because they will continue moaning about how low the pay is. Meanwhile what will happen with the jobs that require qualifications? Will the employer now be more inclined to hire a local brittish born with lower qualifications? I'd guess that it will most likely lead to employers just advertising jobs abroad to better qualified prospects... "They will be forced to provide more training for the local force to get locals qualified for these positions" I hear you say? Ah yes, for what money? The funds that also should be used to raise the wages of low paid jobs to attract more local people?


I work in a primary school. It is an issue in our school. Some of them struggle to intergrate because of communication skills.
My son is visually impaired and struggles to get the help he needs because resources are stretched in communication.
It very much depends on where in the UK you live. This is my personal experience, other peoples might be completely different but in my experience it has not been a good thing.


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## Jessybooboo (Oct 14, 2016)

You cannot compare a hospital to a hotel!


shadowmare said:


> Considering that British tourists are well known for complaining about the number of German or Russian tourists in their hotels and the lack or poor quality of English breakfast when they're on holidays in Spain, I can't see how this is cheeky? I've never been pregnant but I do come from a country where the new mother definitely gets more than one day in the hospital. I was shocked when I found out that my colleague got sent home a few hours after giving birth. I would definitely be shocked too if I just gave birth and was told that I need to go hom the next morning if I was used to a different system and not familiar to the local one.


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

Presumably the British people who (according to the Guardian) are seeking to become citizens of other European countries are Remoaners.
Excellent news then, we get rid of them too. One-way tickets only. :Joyful


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Yes this maybe the case but I wonder how many will be rejected as they don't have dual nationalship with the country they are seeking citizenship in?


Hope Irish will be ok. Lol!!!


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Magnus said:


> Presumably the British people who (according to the Guardian) are seeking to become citizens of other European countries are Remoaners.
> Excellent news then, we get rid of them too. One-way tickets only. :Joyful


I think that's rather a shocking comment. 48% of the UK population eligible to vote voted remain. The figure would've been higher had 16-17 year olds and UK immigrants abroad been allowed to vote.

Are you really suggesting because we disagree with Brexit we should get "On our bikes" to other countries within the EU? That might not be possible if we can't get dual citizenship. Had we stayed in the EU that would have been no problem.

As it is any thoughts of retiring to another EU country may now be impossible unless we win the Lottery.
We'll be stuck here whether we want to be or not. At least Scotland isn't far from here.

You may label us "Remoaners" as the right wing press do. They'll be very many "Moaner Leavers" once Brexit really begins to bite.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jessybooboo said:


> I work in a primary school. It is an issue in our school. Some of them struggle to intergrate because of communication skills.
> My son is visually impaired and struggles to get the help he needs because resources are stretched in communication.


Ah teaching, my family are basically teachers, mother taught special needs. Truth is schools and teachers are stretched because of lack of funding and the drive to "integrate" special needs children, not simply immigrants. Can you tell me, are all these children struggling to integrate only from EU countries? I doubt it considering the "average" EU immigrant is young and without family. If they are with family many are bilingual.



Magnus said:


> Excellent news then, we get rid of them too. One-way tickets only. :Joyful


Hope you've also signed the petition before it was taken down: http://www.businessinsider.de/tory-...tition-eu-support-post-brexit-treason-2016-10


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Ah teaching, my family are basically teachers, mother taught special needs. Truth is schools and teachers are stretched because of lack of funding and the drive to "integrate" special needs children, not simply immigrants. Can you tell me, are all these children struggling to integrate only from EU countries? I doubt it considering the "average" EU immigrant is young and without family. *If they are with family many are bilingual.*


We have something in common, our families have teachers ! What part of the country do they teach in?

Are you saying that many children are bilingual when they arrive to the UK?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> We have something in common, our families have teachers ! What part of the country do they teach in?
> 
> Are you saying that many children are bilingual when they arrive to the UK?


Kent although mother taught all in quite a few different locations throughout her career including cornwall and norfolk. Only my sister teaching now though. Worst thing ever is to get two teachers in a room, you can guarantee the topic of conversation is one thing and family friends all tend to be teachers.

As for children being bilingual, obviously depends on ages and where they are from but most children in secondary school from countries like Germany can speak english, possibly with french or latin as additional languages. English is taught in primary school. Another advantage is films etc. I've been to kids films at the cinema here in "original version" and quite a few children watch films like that. Films in I think holland are not dubbed, only subtitled. Reason you can get a lot of foreign students in higher education who on average get better results than those students native to the UK. It's not like UK media pushes, EU immigration is far from simply being from eastern europe and in a lot of the EU, language skills are far superior to those of the UK. Then of course you have the reason for many people moving to the UK. Not uncommon for people to move due to getting married to someone from the UK (and vice versa, move from UK to the EU). I know several German/English couples who live in the UK with dual languages used at home. No statistics though, only experience.


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## Jessybooboo (Oct 14, 2016)

Goblin said:


> Ah teaching, my family are basically teachers, mother taught special needs. Truth is schools and teachers are stretched because of lack of funding and the drive to "integrate" special needs children, not simply immigrants. Can you tell me, are all these children struggling to integrate only from EU countries? I doubt it considering the "average" EU immigrant is young and without family. If they are with family many are bilingual.
> 
> Hope you've also signed the petition before it was taken down: http://www.businessinsider.de/tory-...tition-eu-support-post-brexit-treason-2016-10


No, it's not just immigrant children that find it hard integrating, but I would say they are the majority. They add pressure as schools already overstretched. When children can't communicate with peers and teachers they can get frustrated and can lash out, then the child can be seen a bully or as having behavioural problems. It is really sad.
At our school I notice that the immigrant families stick together and do not attend the British children's parties when invited or reply. They will say hello but do not invite children round for tea or play dates etc.
I'm talking primary school age, so starting at age 4 and mainly from families where the mother doesn't speak English. It is likely that they catch by the time they are at secondary school but during 4-11 years will usually need help, which takes it away from SEND children.

Our Catholic Secondary school has a whole English as an additional block. This can't be cheap to run.

My nephew is English but lives in Austria, he has problems with his speech and gets confused with the language, he has developed a stutter and he is known as the naughty English boy, this is probably because he is frustrated.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jessybooboo said:


> No, it's not just immigrant children that find it hard integrating, but I would say they are the majority.


That wasn't actually the question. Question was is it specifically EU immigrants as they are the only ones who are going to be affected by Brexit.



> They add pressure as schools already overstretched. When children can't communicate with peers and teachers they can get frustrated and can lash out, then the child can be seen a bully or as having behavioural problems. It is really sad.


Agreed but that depends on funding and also training of teachers and especially teaching assistants.



> At our school I notice that the immigrant families stick together and do not attend the British children's parties when invited or reply. They will say hello but do not invite children round for tea or play dates etc.


Some of that is normal. Only have to see expat communties in places like spain. It's also more likely if religion is also involved. Not an easy thing to have a solution for but generally at least those from the EU have a closer culture than those from further afield which helps. X country culture night with food from the country etc I know has been used in the past, getting the parents involved in making the food. Not really a problem I have encountered as the immigrants I know, including from Germany and Poland all speak English. My wife actually studied English at doctorate level. You must also consider that the feeling from immigrants at the moment is that they are not wanted which will be a barrier.



> I'm talking primary school age, so starting at age 4 and mainly from families where the mother doesn't speak English. It is likely that they catch by the time they are at secondary school but during 4-11 years will usually need help, which takes it away from SEND children.


Simply leaving the EU will not solve this. Indications are that less money will be available to the government to spend on schools etc as GDP will be hit. Leaving the EU will do nothing to solve immigration from those who come from outside the EU.

Not trying to belittle your experience, as mine is different but leaving the EU does nothing to really solve the core problems whilst damaging the majority.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Kent although mother taught all in quite a few different locations throughout her career including cornwall and norfolk. Only my sister teaching now though. Worst thing ever is to get two teachers in a room, you can guarantee the topic of conversation is one thing and family friends all tend to be teachers.
> As for children being bilingual, obviously depends on ages and where they are from but most children in secondary school from countries like Germany can speak english, possibly with french or latin as additional languages. English is taught in primary school. Another advantage is films etc. I've been to kids films at the cinema here in "original version" and quite a few children watch films like that. Films in I think holland are not dubbed, only subtitled. Reason you can get a lot of foreign students in higher education who on average get better results than those students native to the UK. It's not like UK media pushes, EU immigration is far from simply being from eastern europe and in a lot of the EU, language skills are far superior to those of the UK. Then of course you have the reason for many people moving to the UK. Not uncommon for people to move due to getting married to someone from the UK (and vice versa, move from UK to the EU). I know several German/English couples who live in the UK with dual languages used at home. No statistics though, only experience.


It really annoys me when people say teachers have cushy jobs and long holiday , it really isn't like that ! Mine were or are primary teachers.
mainly west london/middlesex / berkshire from southall to slough areas .

You asked Jessybobo this - Can you tell me, are all these children struggling to integrate only from EU countries? I doubt it considering the "average" EU immigrant is young and without family. If they are with family many are bilingual.

TBH If I were her I would have asked for stats , in the quote immediately above , you appear to be stating facts but you are not . You don't know if the "average " EU Immigrants are young without family or if many are bilingual , what is an average EU Immigrant anyway ?

I know what you have said about Schools in eu countries teaching English etc is true and that you know several English / german couples , and Polish people who speak english, that's your experience and we all have different experiences.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> you appear to be stating facts but you are not .


Strange I would have thought the following would make it clear.


Goblin said:


> No statistics though, only experience.


However, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/uk-magnet-highly-educated-migrants-research can be a start:


> A recent UCL study showed that the typical profile of a European migrant in Britain was no longer a Polish plumber, but a young, single French or Spanish graduate working in the financial, technology or media industries.





kimthecat said:


> I know what you have said about Schools in eu countries teaching English etc is true and that you know several English / german couples , and Polish people who speak english, that's your experience and we all have different experiences.


Again, I pointed out as my experience. Never indicated otherwise.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Yes this maybe the case but I wonder how many will be rejected as they don't have dual nationalship with the country they are seeking citizenship in?


You really don't understand this do you? Somebody who already has dual nationality wouldn't apply.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Seems a good time to pull this out again. Some of the points and questions for brexiteers moaning about remainers moaning.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> Hope Irish will be ok. Lol!!!


Its not looking great! Might not be such a rosy alternative if things get really grim here. @stockwellcat

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...alls-brexit-summit-to-confront-looming-crisis

_Irish leaders have warned of an economic "disaster" on both sides of the border without decisive action to confront the effects of Britain's impending departure from the EU._

_Amid warnings of "incalculable consequences" for the Irish Republic and __Northern Ireland__ as the Brexit process unfolds, Ireland's prime minister Enda Kenny will convene an unprecedented cross-border summit of political leaders to consider what steps to take._

_The prospect of Brexit has already raised intractable questions about __the border that runs across the island__, and has vexed farmers who send half their beef to British dinner tables. The slump of sterling is squeezing Irish exporters and the future of Northern Ireland, which relies heavily on EU subsidies, is uncertain. Some forecasters fear that Ireland could be harder hit than Britain by the tumult_


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Hope you've also signed the petition before it was taken down: http://www.businessinsider.de/tory-...tition-eu-support-post-brexit-treason-2016-10


Did you see the response from downing street to this? Theresa Mays spokeswoman didn't condemn it. Jeezus.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Strange I would have thought the following would make it clear.
> However, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/uk-magnet-highly-educated-migrants-research can be a start:
> Again, I pointed out as my experience. Never indicated otherwise.


In your reply to Jessy, you did *not* make it clear or indicate , you only said that after I questioned you .

I need to read the original when I have time . I didn't see anything about being them being young , single and not having children .

Western EEA 62 .5% with a degree and Eastern EEA 25% Seems that eastern europeans get paid less. 

ETA Full study . It looks a good positive study and worth reading
http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_uploads/CDP_22_13.pdf


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Seems a good time to pull this out again. Some of the points and questions for brexiteers moaning about remainers moaning.



*"I want my tolerant, forward looking, open, welcoming, warm, compassionate country back, so forgive me for carrying on fighting to achieve that."*

I'll ask again -when exactly was that. When was this time that Great Britain was all of these things - so much better than today?


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## Jessybooboo (Oct 14, 2016)

Sorry Goblin, in response to whether it's specifically children from EU countries that find in hard to integrate:

From my obersevations I'd say some of the other immigrants,particularly Asian children, integrate better and seem to pick up the language quicker. I don't know exactly why this this but I know that some attend private tuition on Saturdays. They also take part in football clubs etc so mix more. The parents make effort to come into school too help and are friendly.
I have unfortunately had cases where an Eastern European 11 year old been verbally racist to an Indian one, to which the class was shocked this doesn't really help children to want to be friends with him. I can honestly say that at my primary school I haven't heard any of the British children being racist, which is a credit to society.
The guy I used to work with was also quite racist towards Asians.
Now I know some British are too. But as these are my main experiences of EU immigration you must be able to see why I (and many others) don't see it has a positive thing.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

samuelsmiles said:


> I'll ask again -when exactly was that. When was this time that Great Britain was all of these things


May not have got there but we were working towards it, it was the aim. Now it isn't.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jessybooboo said:


> But as these are my main experiences of EU immigration you must be able to see why I (and many others) don't see it has a positive thing.


Fair enough, as I said I use my experiences as a baseline. Some of it will depend simply on where you live, even within the UK. However statistics don't agree that immigrants from the EU are a burden.

We both should remember that the very nature of immigrants and where they come changes. As mentioned 30 years ago it was UK immigrants looking for work in central europe. Recently the EU had new members which caused a surge of immigrants from eastern europe. This will not be sustained long term. At present the spanish single degree person is used as the example. The EU is unlikely to add any new members despite Turkey being pushed by the leave campaign as being an imminent joiner.

You should also consider that the EU is not static. Non-contributary benefits being stopped for unemployed immigrants. Other countries wanting to stop benefit tourism. Germany is pushing for changes including stopping benefits when working. Immigration will not stop just as leave the EU. The government fails to control immigration from non-eu countries regardless. The UK could achieve change as part of the democratic proccess within the EU.


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## Jessybooboo (Oct 14, 2016)

I feel that if we are allowing free movement across the EU has to viewed as a whole nation, I don't think it works to have different members having different tax codes and welfare systems, school systems, Criminal record checks, laws and policies, the list is endless. Although I suppose America is like this. It is a big unorganised mess.
In our shire we have an affluent town, who voted to stay in, their children go private schools, they use private medical care, they like cheap labour to clean their homes etc,
Where as us lot, in the town that is the poor relation, are the struggling middle who can't seem to get a doctors appointment or good school places.
The demand for housing has made prices so high that even you are earning 60k a couple they still struggle to buy a house. I want better than this for my children.
Why are we allowing more people to arrive everyday when we can't even offer acceptable services to the people already here? It is insane.
Also what is the effect on the countries they are leaving behind?
I don't see the benefits of free movement.


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## Britt (May 18, 2014)

samuelsmiles said:


> I'm very content living in England but now, according to some, this country is decending in to such an appalling pit of facist, racist uncaring horribleness where would be a good country to migrate to?
> 
> Where would this be - where you could actually find a little contentment?
> 
> I always thought New Zealand looked a little like paradise, but it is a bit pricey.


.

You can come to Belgium. Small country with a good social security system, good food and affordable houses.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Haha. I have a Belgian surname, so I can come anytime I want. Brexit or no Brexit. I think thems the rules.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Jessybooboo said:


> Why are we allowing more people to arrive everyday when we can't even offer acceptable services to the people already here? It is insane


Perhaps because we need them to staff those services and will need them more and more.



Jessybooboo said:


> they like cheap labour to clean their homes etc,


And harvest the food you don't want to pay more for.



Jessybooboo said:


> the struggling middle who can't seem to get a doctors appointment


I live in a farming area 'overrun' with these pesky EU immigrants. My local town has three or four specialist food shops and the Asda has a whole aisle given over to East European foods. Somehow our local GP surgeries can organise themselves so nobody waits weeks for an appointment so why can't others? The one area of NHS services which is very obviously affected is maternity services - the future payers of your pension.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Britt said:


> .
> 
> You can come to Belgium. Small country with a good social security system, good food and affordable houses.


It's a beautiful country. Problem is we probably won't be allowed to retire there once Brexit takes hold thanks to the ending of free movement.

Very sad. I'm proud of the relationship the UK had with other countries now brought to an end by a stupid referendum. At least the Scottish government think along the lines of myself and many others.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

havoc said:


> I live in a farming area 'overrun' with these pesky EU immigrants. My local town has three or four specialist food shops and the Asda has a whole aisle given over to East European foods.


And why the hell not? Pop into Spain and witness the amount of English restaurants and take aways run by UK migrants. Not one person has moaned about this have they?

What next? Moaning about Indian and Chinese food?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> And why the hell not? Pop into Spain and witness the amount of English restaurants and take aways run by UK migrants. Not one person has moaned about this have they?
> 
> What next? Moaning about Indian and Chinese food?


Think @havoc made that post as ironic...


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Jessybooboo said:


> I feel that if we are allowing free movement across the EU has to viewed as a whole nation, I don't think it works to have different members having different tax codes and welfare systems, school systems, Criminal record checks, laws and policies, the list is endless. Although I suppose America is like this. It is a big unorganised mess.
> In our shire we have an affluent town, who voted to stay in, their children go private schools, they use private medical care, they like cheap labour to clean their homes etc,
> Where as us lot, in the town that is the poor relation, are the struggling middle who can't seem to get a doctors appointment or good school places.
> The demand for housing has made prices so high that even you are earning 60k a couple they still struggle to buy a house. I want better than this for my children.
> ...


Oh dear...
Pound crashing made foreigners veritably run for British property.
As an investment.
It never was cheaper
Especially if you have yens or HKD.
Whole buildings in London have hardly a few windows lit at nights...

Prices of properties go up and up as much as pound goes down and down...

Thanks to all who voted for Brexit anyone who wants a property in UK cheap has great chance ...
That will help to keep British residence if such needed.

So if pound falls and it will...
The only ones up property ladder would be pesky foreigners which will make Britain Great and #take control.

Congratulations.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Think @havoc made that post as ironic...


Apologies Havoc.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Accepted but unnecessary 
They're renting shop premises which would otherwise be left empty AND paying business rates too. It's just take, take, take


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

We dont really know what will happen. has any country said whether they will not let us live there?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> We dont really know what will happen. has any country said whether they will not let us live there?


Exactly, we don't know yet. If the UK government refuse allowing EU citizens in to the UK we can hardly expect other countries to continue to allow free movement of UK citizens to their countries.

Of course they'll be exceptions, highly qualified getting visas to work and the likes as they would do if emigrating to the U.S. or Australia.

It's the people who want to retire abroad who'll lose out I reckon.


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## ZoeM (Jul 16, 2015)

Always fancied NZ myself, and sweden. I love the swedish socialist ways. Been over there and had friends there, shame about the depression-inducing winters though :/


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I'd like to travel abroad more, I don't want to live abroad at my age , one reason is I receive good health care from the NHS and free drugs (yes , really! )


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> Exactly, we don't know yet. If the UK government refuse allowing EU citizens in to the UK we can hardly expect other countries to continue to allow free movement of UK citizens to their countries.
> 
> Of course they'll be exceptions, highly qualified getting visas to work and the likes as they would do if emigrating to the U.S. or Australia.
> 
> It's the people who want to retire abroad who'll lose out I reckon.


Exactly.
If Lilliputians cannot have access to NHS or state education then British in Lilliputia cannot either. Even the great ones.


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## woody599 (Oct 20, 2016)

I wonder when the move is actually going to start already...

woody599


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## Jessybooboo (Oct 14, 2016)

havoc said:


> Perhaps because we need them to staff those services and will need them more and more.
> 
> And harvest the food you don't want to pay more for.
> 
> I live in a farming area 'overrun' with these pesky EU immigrants. My local town has three or four specialist food shops and the Asda has a whole aisle given over to East European foods. Somehow our local GP surgeries can organise themselves so nobody waits weeks for an appointment so why can't others? The one area of NHS services which is very obviously affected is maternity services - the future payers of your pension.


Sorry havoc, I haven't learnt how to quote single paragraphs yet!

Harvest, good point although the only farmer I know voted out, I don't know why but I was surprised.

To staff services, the reason wages are low.

How many births will be future tax payers though? My children will most likely be tax payers as they attend an outstanding grammar school and will hopefully get a well paid job, (my son would never have got the special needs support at the local comp because they have so many English as an additional language students to worry about). We are sensible we only have two children. To me it seems the poorer they are the more kids they have, will they really get well paid jobs and be tax payers? I'm not just just talking about immigrants in this instance but they are a portion. It's just basic maths. In my opinion and experience they take more out than they will ever put in

Our doctors is in a built up area, every bit of open space here they seem to build more houses on without adding public services.

Our town has really declined in last 12 years, the town centre is full of mentally ill (lack of funding for most vulnerable), pick pockets and addicts. You are hard pushed to see normal families there anymore unlike the rich town 5 miles away. To me is seems like the gap between rich and poor has got much wider. Would move from here to Cornwall if my children didn't attend such a fabulous school here. Also why should I be pushed out of my home town because there are too many immigrants here to cope?

I hope house prices fall dramatically.

Can you imagine if we had ww2 times now? Our government would never get their poo together to implement rationing, gas masks or evacuation. There's too many people here!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Jessybooboo said:


> To staff services, the reason wages are low.


The wages are the wages in the NHS and other public services.



Jessybooboo said:


> How many births will be future tax payers though?


If past experience of immigration is any indicator then proportionally more likely than white, British born Brits. First and second generation immigrants aren't born with the same sense of entitlement.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

havoc said:


> The wages are the wages in the NHS and other public services.
> If past experience of immigration is any indicator then proportionally more likely than white, British born Brits. First and second generation immigrants aren't born with the same sense of entitlement.


Its hard to say , I think .
but as I live close to a school and the people here are white british born and second and third generation immigrants / refugees, I have to say that most in this area have two to three on average regardless of nationality etc . We have eastern European , Somali , Asian , Irish , English and a smattering of Western Europeans . Dont know any welsh but i met a Scot the other day
There's all sorts of reasons why people have one or two children or lots.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jessybooboo said:


> I don't see the benefits of free movement.


Already listed a few but lets look elsewhere: https://www.thelocal.de/20160811/immigrants-create-13-million-jobs-in-germany-report or America with http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/05/actually-immigration-can-create-jobs/391997/ or https://www.uschamber.com/above-the-fold/high-skilled-immigrants-create-jobs-us-workers-study-finds.
Consider Teresa May who is determined to limit international students as it plays to the "control border" crowd: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/rob-davidson/international-students_b_12517184.html

It's not free movement within the EU which is the problem, it's the lack of support and infrastructure. More slanted for the US, but the graph in the article shows the UK is underspending on infrastructure. I've seen this being said in multiple places but can't find any at this time. This isn't the EU at fault. The same can be said for schools and the NHS. So we are underspending on infrastructure. You may ask what are we like at present in comparison with other countries : https://www.statista.com/statistics...ing-to-the-general-quality-of-infrastructure/ Immigration may make problems more visible but the problems already exist.

Which comes back to Brexit. Will Brexit actually reduce immigration substantially, taking note that the words used are "control" not stop. The answer is no. EU free movement is not all immigration. Is infrastructure spending going to increase as a % of GDP, unlikely. Estimates for Brexit show GDP decreasing especially on a hard Brexit so that actually means less spending. This means we have less spending on infrastructure, still migrants, including those who are already here, additional racism. Can you remind me why brexit is helping again?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> Its hard to say , I think .
> but as I live close to a school and the people here are white british born and second and third generation immigrants / refugees, I have to say that most in this area have two to three on average regardless of nationality etc . We have eastern European , Somali , Asian , Irish , English and a smattering of Western Europeans . Dont know any welsh but i met a Scot the other day
> There's all sorts of reasons why people have one or two children or lots.


Soon you might have three more..lol!!!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Already listed a few but lets look elsewhere: https://www.thelocal.de/20160811/immigrants-create-13-million-jobs-in-germany-report or America with http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/05/actually-immigration-can-create-jobs/391997/ or https://www.uschamber.com/above-the-fold/high-skilled-immigrants-create-jobs-us-workers-study-finds.
> Consider Teresa May who is determined to limit international students as it plays to the "control border" crowd: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/rob-davidson/international-students_b_12517184.html
> 
> It's not free movement within the EU which is the problem, it's the lack of support and infrastructure. More slanted for the US, but the graph in the article shows the UK is underspending on infrastructure. I've seen this being said in multiple places but can't find any at this time. This isn't the EU at fault. The same can be said for schools and the NHS. So we are underspending on infrastructure. You may ask what are we like at present in comparison with other countries : https://www.statista.com/statistics...ing-to-the-general-quality-of-infrastructure/ Immigration may make problems more visible but the problems already exist.
> ...


One Nation.
One Party.
One Voice.

Have I heard it before ?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> Soon you might have three more..lol!!!


 My neighbours will be worried when I say Rockers are coming to stay , they'll think you'll be coming on motor bikes and wearing leathers !


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> My neighbours will be worried when I say Rockers are coming to stay , they'll think you'll be coming on motor bikes and wearing leathers !


I know that's a joke and it's slightly off topic. However it does raise the issue of prejudice. We talk about immigrants and there is prejudice against them, more so after the referendum. Bikers suffer the same and there is a dark side to the scene, especially with some biker gangs. However:






No matter what it is, we need to stop being prejudice towards any group and judge people by their own merits.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> My neighbours will be worried when I say Rockers are coming to stay , they'll think you'll be coming on motor bikes and wearing leathers !


Your neighbours are right to be concerned....lol!!!

Bikers IMO could be very tolerant , open minded people.
Their gatherings tend to be multiracial, international events...lots of beer , gin and good ole rock..
Easy Riders after all!!!


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Funny how the right wing press accused Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party of being in "La La Land".....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37726572


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> Your neighbours are right to be concerned....lol!!!
> 
> Bikers IMO could be very tolerant , open minded people.
> Their gatherings tend to be multiracial, international events...lots of beer , gin and good ole rock..
> Easy Riders after all!!!


Absolutely.

Rockers is a term from the 60s when Mods and Rockers used to have gang fights . 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/18/newsid_2511000/2511245.stm


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