# new born puppies and mum



## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

I have recently breed my two Yorkshire terriers and the bitch has 2 pups (she did have 3 but one died at birth) and just looking for some helpful advice. just to add this is my first time at breeding so learning new things all the time.

The vets delivered the two pups the bitch has now (because the first pup died i didn't wanna risk the others being dead too) but we do not know the weight of the pups when they were born, is this something worth asking the vets? As we don't know the weight of the pups we weighed them that night (Monday), the girl weighed 72g and the boy weight 113g. She only started feeding off the mum yesterday so we left her to it for 3 feeds and have been feeding her formula (whelpi) the rest of the time but last night she lost 3g and went to 69g, (the boy is putting on weight (he's now 116g)). We weighed her again this morning and she's now 70g (an hour after last feed). How long should we leave it before contacting the vets regarding her weight gain (or lack of)?

Also the bitch has started to leave the pups in the whelping box for a few seconds but about 2 hours ago, she has been panting and digging while away from her pups, we were wondering if this has something to do with the first pup dying?


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Take it your vet checked there was no more there  and that the three afterbirths were present and correct. Was it a c section or just a normal aided birth


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

tashi said:


> Take it your vet checked there was no more there  and that the three afterbirths were present and correct. Was it a c section or just a normal aided birth


Thanks for replying. Yeah, the report we had back from the vets said all placentas were passed and checked for no more pups. It was a natural aided birth but the vet gave her an Oxytocin-S Injection to speed it along.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

tiggerminx said:


> Thanks for replying. Yeah, the report we had back from the vets said all placentas were passed and checked for no more pups. It was a natural aided birth but the vet gave her an Oxytocin-S Injection to speed it along.


Strange as her actions would lead you to believe there was something else there, will consult my oracle now and see what she comes up with


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## Rache (Jul 24, 2010)

Bitches can carry on digging and panting for quite a few days after they have delivered. It's believed it ca be from the discomfort of her uterus shrinking back to the normal size. 

I'd be quite worried about the smaller pup. Put the bigger pup onto the back teats to get the milk flowing then put him on another and put the smaller one on the teat you took him off. You need to make sure she's warm and docent get dehydrated. If it was me I would also top her up. 

I'm not overly exPerienced in this. I'm sure someone else will be along to hElp.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

i was weighing our pups once a day the same time every morning as it gives you an idea rather than ever few hours.

Do like the post above me says get the big pup to start pulling milk through on a back teat move hima nd put smaller pup on there as the back teats have the most fmilk flow and its higher in all the things the pups need. 

Also if you can top her up. 

On top I would phone the vetsd and find out what her weight was and see if she has gained or lost from it. It may be worth taking her down to the vets for a check up as puppies do go down hill fast. 

Good luck and welcome to PF x


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks for the advice. We had a look on the Internet and the weight of the smaller pup seems about right for a small yorkie at birth but yeah we are quite worried about her. I'm not sure we could cope with losing another pup. I'll phone the vets today and see what they say about the weights, etc and will ask to take them in if necessary


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_fingers crossed the smaller pup starts to gain weight soon, keep us posted.xx_


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Quick update, phoned the vets and they said the boy sounds fine but it's likely that he's getting all the best milk and the girl is being left with the dregs. They've suggested to keep feeding the girl formula and trying to get her on the back teets as well so can anyone advise whether this is a good idea:

Feed the girl from mums teets every 2 hours and then feed her formula evey 2 hours (alternate hours) so she's getting some milk every hour.

Thanks


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

tiggerminx said:


> Quick update, phoned the vets and they said the boy sounds fine but it's likely that he's getting all the best milk and the girl is being left with the dregs. They've suggested to keep feeding the girl formula and trying to get her on the back teets as well so can anyone advise whether this is a good idea:
> 
> Feed the girl from mums teets every 2 hours and then feed her formula evey 2 hours (alternate hours) so she's getting some milk every hour.
> 
> Thanks


Best milk is always at the back so yep go along with that one, has she stopped digging now ? Hard to try to judge when you cant see them, sorry I didnt get back to you earlier but had an emergency here with one of my own


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Rache said:


> Bitches can carry on digging and panting for quite a few days after they have delivered. It's believed it ca be from the discomfort of her uterus shrinking back to the normal size.


I was going to say, my eldest bitch dug for quite a few days after on both her litters - vet said this was completely normal for the reasons you mention.

Another reason why you have to be with mum and pups particularly in the early stages - as the digging can be quite ferocious at times :

Hope the little one continues to thrive - I can't really comment on the weights having a much bigger breed - and them being in grams!! - but I've had pups nearly double the size of others at birth and they've all gone on to thrive and develop normally - she just may need a helping hand with where she goes to get mum's milk


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Rache said:


> Bitches can carry on digging and panting for quite a few days after they have delivered. It's believed it ca be from the discomfort of her uterus shrinking back to the normal size.
> 
> I'd be quite worried about the smaller pup. Put the bigger pup onto the back teats to get the milk flowing then put him on another and put the smaller one on the teat you took him off. You need to make sure she's warm and docent get dehydrated. If it was me I would also top her up.
> 
> I'm not overly exPerienced in this. I'm sure someone else will be along to hElp.


spot on..............she'll soon catch up if you take the above advice.

some of mine have dug up days after , you'll need to keep an eye on her when she does it . weight wise I'm like S no idea i only do ounces. all the best x


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks for all the excellent advice. I'm just so worried about losing our two pups. If she doesn't start gaining weight (or if she loses weight) by tomorrow we'll be straight down to the vets. Is there stuff the vet can give her to help her put weight on?


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## muse08 (Dec 21, 2008)

Personally if they were my pups id rather be putting the little one on the mothers back teats to drink more frequently(perhaps every hour if necessary) rather than alternating with supplement milk.The more pups suck off mum the more milk she will produce,and vise versa the less they suck the less she will produce. Supplementing is good when its absolutely necessary/only option, but there is always a risk of over feeding,risk of milk getting into the lungs, and everything has to be sterile so you dont introduce any infection.imo mums milk is always best,supplimenting would be a last resort for me.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

muse08 said:


> Personally if they were my pups id rather be putting the little one on the mothers back teats to drink more frequently(perhaps every hour if necessary) rather than alternating with supplement milk.The more pups suck off mum the more milk she will produce,and vise versa the less they suck the less she will produce. Supplementing is good when its absolutely necessary/only option, but there is always a risk of over feeding,risk of milk getting into the lungs, and everything has to be sterile so you dont introduce any infection.imo mums milk is always best,supplimenting would be a last resort for me.


Thanks for your reply. This would be our preferred method. At the moment (for the past few hours), we have been feeding her on mums back teats one hour, then giving her 1ml of formula the next hour and so on. It's a struggle getting her to take the formula as she puts up a good fight but once she starts taking it, she's ok. She's not gained any weight yet since doing this but I guess it'll take a while to work through (I'm just a nervous first timer I suppose).

If we go with the above method of feeding more regularly on mums back teats instead of formula, how do we know that she's getting enough milk? At the moment, she'll suck for so long and then just lie there and stop sucking. Is that a sign that they're full or a sign that there's no milk left?

Thanks again, we really appreciate all your guys input...so much more helpful than another forum we *were *on.


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Sorry i dont know anything about breeding but good luck with little ones


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## muse08 (Dec 21, 2008)

Is the little pup actively looking for her mums teats and feeding on her own at all, or is she only feeding when you put her on. Does she behave in much the same way as the other pup apart from the fact that shes smaller?
Providing the pup isnt noticeable weak, if she has a full tummy after suckling she should be quiet and sleeping, sometimes twitching. If she wasnt getting enough milk she would probably constantly be making a lot of squeaky/moaning noises.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

OK - it's quite normal for pups to lose a few ounces directly after birth or not gain anything for the first few days - roughly speaking pups that are doing well should double their birth weight in a week .

Personally I would'nt rush to 'top up' unless there is a drastic weight loss or unless mum is producing very little milk -place the smaller pup on the back teats as often as she will suckle ( this will probably 
mean more than once an hour ) - if she has difficulty establishing a good milk flow then put the stronger pup on first then swap the pups over so that she gets the most milk .

If she feels warm, is quiet, sleepy, and making a quiet murmuring sound most of the time then she'll be doing fine - i know it's hard not to worry when it's your first litter and especially when you've already lost a pup at birth but I'm sure she'll start to gain weight soon .

good luck with the new family


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

muse08 said:


> Is the little pup actively looking for her mums teats and feeding on her own at all, or is she only feeding when you put her on. Does she behave in much the same way as the other pup apart from the fact that she's smaller?
> Providing the pup isn't noticeable weak, if she has a full tummy after suckling she should be quiet and sleeping, sometimes twitching. If she wasn't getting enough milk she would probably constantly be making a lot of squeaky/moaning noises.


She does actively look for the teats occassionally but not all of the time but when she does, she can't get to it (there's only one teat that both pups seem to suckle from and she can't quite reach it because of her size). Other than the feeding, she acts exactly the same as the bigger pup. She definately doesn't feel weak (as I said earlier, she puts up a good fight when we try to feed her lol). The only times she makes squeaky/moaning noises is when we're trying to feed her with the syringe/tube and when she's upside down or looking for mum.

Thanks again for all your help and support.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Also, could the fact that the little pup is resisting when we try to hand feed her mean that she's full? Just don't want to do anything wrong.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

Teigan panted up to 4 days after birth and this is normal, We have one pup smaller than the other one and the little girl is the more dominant one and will get a nipple and lay back and block the others off so the little boy couldnt get to a nipple, both our favored one nipple too, I put the girl to suckle first then take her off and put the boy on the back one and then position the little girl onto the next nipple up from where the boy is, I had to hold the little girl and keep latching her onto this new nipple until she got the hang of it, this all happend on the first and second day of birth, it was tireing but I kept it up until she took to the new nipple, the boy was quite happy sucking away on this already sucked on nipple. I didn't top up with formula and wouldn't do unless he was';t getting anything at all and loosing weight, I weighed both mine every morning. when the milk flows and they are happily latched on they will paddle mums belly either side of the nipples, if the puppy was starving it would be frantic and squeeking loudly. take the weight now and again in the morning and every morning from then on so you can see if there is a weight gain. Make sure you stay with them and watch to see that they suckle and mum dont lick her pup and knock one of them off especially your smallest one, if you are worried at all ...get in touch with the vets, dont hesitate as very small puppies deteriorate very quickly. You will have to keep an eye on these puppies all the time and when you cant do it then get someone to take over, as they are small the mum can lay on them and not know there are under her. I am still sleeping alongside my babies and they are now 4 weeks old today. (chi's).

Just to add, the first 3 to 4 days the bitch produces colostrum which is beneficial to all the puppies as it helps the immune system, after 3 to 4 days THEN the milk comes in.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks welshcrazy. It sounds like you had a very similar experience to us then. We are having to hold our little girl in position to get her to suckle but once she knows she's there, she looks for the teats. Do you think that when our little girl stops suckling and just lies there, we should move her away and let the boy suckle instead? We will hold off on the formula and feed our two from mum every half an hour or so.

One more thing, is there a danger that with the girl getting some milk now, there won't be enough for the boy? We'd hate for him to start losing weight.

We're thinking of taking the two pups and mum to the vets tomorrow just to get them checked over. As you all say, things can go wrong very badly, very quickly with new pups so it's worth getting them checked I think.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

We just had one last go at tube feeding the little girl and got the distinct impression that she was full up so we left it. We're going to continue trying to get her to suckle on mum every half hour/hour and see how we get on


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

How long do she suckle before she stops? If she have only suckled for a min then stops it could be that she is weak and cant keep up with the suckling and getting tired out. Keep putting the boy on the nipple and let him draw the milk (not sure how old your little ones are), then place her on that nipple, he is the stronger one and will start drawing milk off another nipple preferably the next BACK nipple to the one the little girl was on as the back ones have the most milk, you can always put him back on that same nipple after she have had her fill, but keep weighing them every morning and write it down, if she is still loosing weight then you should take her back to the vets for further advice, I can only tell you what I do and my own experience obviously the advice of a vet is defo needed if she looses any more. Keep an eye on his weight to so you can see if he is taking in enough milk himself. xxx


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Yeah she only suckles for about a minute then stops, then if we're persistant she'll start again. We will try continually putting the boy on and taking him off. We've tried putting the boy on the next nipple but he's just not interested. We are definately going to go to the vets tomorrow regardless, it's just for peace of mind more than anything so will get all 3 of them checked over.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Yeah she only suckles for about a minute then stops, then if we're persistant she'll start again. We will try continually putting the boy on and taking him off. We've tried putting the boy on the next nipple but he's just not interested. We are definately going to go to the vets tomorrow regardless, it's just for peace of mind more than anything so will get all 3 of them checked over.


Yes I would take them, at least you will know more then and put your mind at rest, its not worth taking a chance. We persisted with the other nipple (back one) and she eventually suckled on it and what is really funny is they both go to their own nipples now, it is as if they know THAT ONE IS MINE lololol good luck for tomorrow. xxxx


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

How is your little one doing today?


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

xxwelshcrazyxx said:


> How is your little one doing today?


Hi welshcrazy,
When we weighed both pups this morning, they both weighed less than they did last night (and at the same time yesterday morning) so we took them straight to the vets. The vets weighed them and the girl actually weighed 68g (down from 70g) and the boy weighed 108g (down from 116g). However, they didn't seem overly concerned. They checked the suckling action and said both were suckling fine and seemed lively enough. They suggested that we stop relying on mum to feed them and give them regular 2 hourly feeds with the formula. We had been giving them about 1.25g of formula each time but they suggested that we increase it to maybe 1.5 or 1.75g and then still let them suckle on mum in addition to the formular (but make the formula their regular source of food if that makes sense).

They said that if we're still worried on Saturday to go back.

Still worried though


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Hi welshcrazy,
> When we weighed both pups this morning, they both weighed less than they did last night (and at the same time yesterday morning) so we took them straight to the vets. The vets weighed them and the girl actually weighed 68g (down from 70g) and the boy weighed 108g (down from 116g). However, they didn't seem overly concerned. They checked the suckling action and said both were suckling fine and seemed lively enough. They suggested that we stop relying on mum to feed them and give them regular 2 hourly feeds with the formula. We had been giving them about 1.25g of formula each time but they suggested that we increase it to maybe 1.5 or 1.75g and then still let them suckle on mum in addition to the formular (but make the formula their regular source of food if that makes sense).
> 
> They said that if we're still worried on Saturday to go back.
> ...


Well at least it have put your mind at rest, make sure you have someone to help you do the feeds as you will be really tired after a few nights. Hope they start to put on the weight now. xxx
Keep us updated ok


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_i have got everything crossed here that they start putting on a good weight and start feeding off mum properly,xxxx_


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

thank you to both of you. It's a truly daunting experience. We had planned to breed at some point which is why we hadn't had the dogs 'done' but we were going to wait a year, learn everything that needed to be learnt, find a mentor, etc and just generally be prepared but our two obviously had other ideas.

We've decided to up their forumula to 1.5g for 24 hours and see how that goes. If they've still not put weight on, we'll up it to 1.75g and so on. They're only tiny and we do want to try to feed them on mum a little bit so don't want them bloated. I'm just scared about tube feeding. We've been given 1ml syringes with rubber nipples on the end like the one pictured below so won't go too far, just hope it goes to the right place.

We've had a couple of occassions where we've seen bubbles from pups nose but stopped straight away. We really need to slow down the amount of food they take in but they are guzzlers lol.

If there's anything else anyone can think of that'll help, do post here. We'd really appreciate it and really appreciate the support


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Teach me to read a thread properly instead of trying to skim over it - thought that aint a puppy it is some sort of monkey


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

tashi said:


> Teach me to read a thread properly instead of trying to skim over it - thought that aint a puppy it is some sort of monkey


lol it's cute though right?


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

tashi said:


> Teach me to read a thread properly instead of trying to skim over it - thought that aint a puppy it is some sort of monkey


I must admit I did the same, saw the picture and thought 'great OP has put a pic on of pups but then thought 'I'm sure that's a monkey!' :lol:

Tiggerminx, I hope the feeding goes well with the pups and they start to put on weight. I can imagine how worried you are.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Here's a couple of pics of the pups


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

Aww they are so adorable and sooo tiny - I'm not used to seeing such little pups.

Mum looks so proud.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

BeagleOesx said:


> Aww they are so adorable and sooo tiny - I'm not used to seeing such little pups.
> 
> Mum looks so proud.


She does doesn't she. I just hope we can make them pull through for her


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

tiggerminx said:


> Here's a couple of pics of the pups


They look well rounded and healthy


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I thought the same thats not a dog thats a monkey then I read the post....lol


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

canuckjill said:


> I thought the same thats not a dog thats a monkey then I read the post....lol


Us mods must get it together :blink:


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Just a quick update. We've decided to name our two pups (we named the one that died 'Pepsi') and we've decided on Daisy for the little girl and Charlie for the boy.

We have just weighed our two and they've put on weight 

Both pups have put on 3g from what they were yesterday morning. Daisy is now 71g (up from 68g) and Charlie is now 111g (up from 108g). We're so happy. I know they're only small increases but anything's positive right?


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

Glad they are putting on weight now. I love the names


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

Made my morning to read they've put on weight, hope they've turned the corner now and will continue to gain.

Love all the names as well.


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Hope puppies continue to do well


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Just a quick update. We've decided to name our two pups (we named the one that died 'Pepsi') and we've decided on Daisy for the little girl and Charlie for the boy.
> 
> We have just weighed our two and they've put on weight
> 
> Both pups have put on 3g from what they were yesterday morning. Daisy is now 71g (up from 68g) and Charlie is now 111g (up from 108g). We're so happy. I know they're only small increases but anything's positive right?


That is brilliant news and 3g on is better than 3g down, I am so glad for you, I love the names you have given them too, xx


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Just wondering, is there an 'ideal weight' that pups are meant to put on per day (maybe as a percentage of their birth weight).


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

They double their birth weight in the first week. All mine did,


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

tashi said:


> Teach me to read a thread properly instead of trying to skim over it - thought that aint a puppy it is some sort of monkey


Funny looking yorkies, I thought !

Gorgeous babies, sounds like you're doing an excellent job and kudos to you, it all sounds extremely daunting!


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

good luck, glad they are gaining weight


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Another quick update. 

Daisy's weight yesterday morning was 71g, today she's 78g

Charlie's weight yesterday morning was 111g, today he's 118g


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

Yay, well done Daisy & Charlie. Lovely to hear they are continuing to gain weight :thumbup:


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## IlovemyBichon (Dec 7, 2010)

Just found your thread. I'm so glad to hear that the puppies are gaining weight, they are gorgeous!


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Using this as a kinda diary and because I know you're all rooting for Daisy 

She has lost 1g since this morning (even though we increased her food) 
Charlie has put another 5g on since this morning so he's going from strength to strength.

Is Daisy losing 1g something we should worry about? Obviously we'll continue to weigh her.

We've been given some Puppy Stim to try which we've been giving her a little bit at a time but is there a 'set amount' she needs with each feed do you think? The packaging is aimed at larger breeds I think because it says to give 1ml but that'd be too much for little Daisy.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

anyone got any advice? We weighed Daisy again this morning and she's lost another 1g (making it 2g since same time yesterday morning).


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

sorry can't help but fingers crossed for the poor wee one


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Unforunately, Daisy passed away this afternoon :cryin:

We noticed she was shaking a bit this morning and then vomitted about 30 mins after a feed so we phoned the emergency vet. They made us an appointment to go to the animal hospital and while we were waiting in the waiting area she fitted and died. Sooooo sad :-( We're truly devestated.


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

So, so sorry about Daisy. Thinking of you.

RIP Daisy xx


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## IlovemyBichon (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear this. :sad:


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Unforunately, Daisy passed away this afternoon :cryin:
> 
> We noticed she was shaking a bit this morning and then vomitted about 30 mins after a feed so we phoned the emergency vet. They made us an appointment to go to the animal hospital and while we were waiting in the waiting area she fitted and died. Sooooo sad :-( We're truly devestated.


I am so sorry to hear this, I wasn't home yesterday so didn't see this until now, did the vet say what could of been the cause.? I hope the little boy keeps his progress up, he is doing so well. RIP Daisy run free in Rainbow Bridge. xxxx


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

How's Charlie doing?


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

xxwelshcrazyxx said:


> I am so sorry to hear this, I wasn't home yesterday so didn't see this until now, did the vet say what could of been the cause.? I hope the little boy keeps his progress up, he is doing so well. RIP Daisy run free in Rainbow Bridge. xxxx


The vet said that the formula we were feeding Daisy wasn't being digested properly and she was bloated. So the more we fed her, the more bloated she was getting. We did notice that when we fed her the last couple of times, her sniffing sounded like there were bubbles in her nose. Looking back now, that would explain why she always put up a fight when we tried feeding her. We're so upset but we know we did everything we could to save her. At least she's with little pepsi now.



BeagleOesx said:


> How's Charlie doing?


Charlie's doing really well but we're so scared of doing something wrong now. When we feed him we're letting him have a tiny bit at a time and pulling the syringe out of his mouth every 0.3ml to give him a break (where we listen to his sniffing lol). Probably seems silly but we couldn't cope with losing him as well and we've decided to keep him rather than sell him so that's good news.

Weight wise, Charlie is doing really well too.
From Friday AM to Saturday AM he put 7g on
From Saturday AM to Sunday AM he put 9g on
From Sunday AM to Monday AM he put 6g on.

He's reached a week old (well will have at about 4pm) but hasn't reached 'double his birth weight'. In the first few days, he did drop from 113g to 108g and now he's up to 133g. Is this something that we should worry about? I know 'double their weight' can be in 7 to 10 days rather than exactly on 7 days and at least he's still putting on weight and seems his normal fiesty self.


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

Really pleased Charlie is still doing well. I'm sorry but I can't advise on his weights etc., as I have never had to deal with newborn pups but hopefully someone else will be along to advise. I know that Tanya1989 on here is very good at advising so might be an idea to PM her if no responses received, I am sure she wouldn't mind.

I can imagine you are very nervous with Charlie but I am sure everything will work out. It's lovely that you are going to keep him - that will be one very special little boy for you.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks Beagle, I will contact her. Is it normal for newborn pups to poop while they're being fed or does that mean it's being fed too much?


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

so sorry about the wee girl

good luck with Charlie


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Just been and got a Catac Feeding bottle to feed Charlie which should be safer than the syringe I think so will keep updating the thread with his progress.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

I think if he is putting on weight and not loosing it then he should double his birth weight by 10 days old. The main thing is he is NOT loosing anymore. Bubbles coming from a bottled fed puppy means it is being over fed. I think Tanya posted her phone number to you in your inbox when you first made your thread, go look in your inbox and see if you can find it. she will be able to tell you alot more ok. Hope it all works out for you, if in doubt phone your vet ok. xxx


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

xxwelshcrazyxx said:


> I think if he is putting on weight and not loosing it then he should double his birth weight by 10 days old. The main thing is he is NOT loosing anymore. Bubbles coming from a bottled fed puppy means it is being over fed. I think Tanya posted her phone number to you in your inbox when you first made your thread, go look in your inbox and see if you can find it. she will be able to tell you alot more ok. Hope it all works out for you, if in doubt phone your vet ok. xxx


Thanks welshcrazy. No phone number for Tanya I'm afraid. I would've thought he wouldn't overfeed from a bottle because he's having to suckle to get the milk (or am I wrong?)


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

As far as I know, the moms would normally stimulate the pups to pee and poop before feeding them... I'm guessing that's what you're doing with the lil Charlie 

RIP to Daisy and Pepsi, but at least you have Charlie still and he's putting on weight


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

kaisa624 said:


> As far as I know, the moms would normally stimulate the pups to pee and poop before feeding them... I'm guessing that's what you're doing with the lil Charlie
> 
> RIP to Daisy and Pepsi, but at least you have Charlie still and he's putting on weight


Thankfully the mum's taking care of that


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Thanks welshcrazy. No phone number for Tanya I'm afraid. I would've thought he wouldn't overfeed from a bottle because he's having to suckle to get the milk (or am I wrong?)


Sometimes they can over feed, and the bubbling from the nose is a sign of it, but don't sound like yours is doing that anyway. He is putting weight on which is a really good thing.
I hope he keeps doing well for you  so nice to hear you are keeping him, he will be precious to you know, an extra special little boy,xxxxxxx


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

A quick update:

Charlie is doing really well. Over the last 48 hours he's put on 23g in weight and he now weighs 163g (up from his lowest point which was 108g).

We're still having a few problems with his feeding. He's just so boisterous when we feed him and he's so eager for his food so the bottle didn't really work because he was getting too much too quick.

We've gone back to syringe feeding him so that we can give him 0.1ml then pull the syringe out, giving him time to swallow it. We even tried some bigger (2.5ml) syringes but again with his sucking, he gets too much and ends up with bubbles up his nose!

We went back to the vets on Tuesday and they checked his lungs and said they sounded clear and healthy but obviously it continues to be a worry for us.

He also sometimes makes a snorting/slurping kinda noise which worries us too but after a while when he calms down he's ok. Is this just him catching his breath or something?


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

So glad he is putting weight on, sounds like he is thriving nicely. not sure about the grunting noise, could be him trying to get breath and suck at the same time????? He is obviously taking as much as he needs as he is putting the weight on and not loosing any. Hope he continues to progress. xxxx 
As he is very eager for his food like you say, have you tried giving him a little less each meal and giving him his next meal a little bit earlier, just a thought as it may help him stop gulping it down.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Well we've reached 2 weeks old with Charlie  

He now weighs 196g which isn't quite double his birth weight but considering his poor start he is doing really well.

Just wondering now about the worming. We bought some Panacur 18.75% Oral Paste a few weeks ago and while its got instructions for puppies on it, it doesn't mention anything about 2 week old puppies. Is it safe to give him this or should we get something else?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

tiggerminx said:


> Just wondering now about the worming. We bought some Panacur 18.75% Oral Paste a few weeks ago and while its got instructions for puppies on it, it doesn't mention anything about 2 week old puppies. Is it safe to give him this or should we get something else?


The typical time most people start worming is around 2 weeks, I tend to start from three - and ALWAYS do it on a full tummy, otherwise you could have fractious puppies and is can make them gripey.

The Panacur is given for three consecutive days at 2 week intervals.

TBH - in your circumstances, I really would speak to your vet.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

swarthy said:


> TBH - in your circumstances, I really would speak to your vet.


Thanks but can I ask why?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

tiggerminx said:


> Thanks but can I ask why?


Because your pups have had a rough start, and IMO - I wouldn't be seeking advice on it from a forum - if something did go wrong, you need to ensure you have taken advice from the correct source.

If your pups had been born without issues then yes, follow the advice you might get on a forum - they are very small babies - my pups are usually born weighing between 15 and 21 oz (420g to 560g) two to three times the weight your little one is now, and there may be weight guides for using the Panacur.

This is only my opinion, you don't have to take it - and others might disagree.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Isn't he feeding from mum at all?


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks, I appreciate your input. 

We have been taking him to the vets regularly, to make sure he's ok (especially after Daisy died). I will hold off on the worming til I've spoken to the vets tomorrow.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Isn't he feeding from mum at all?


He did to start with but when he wasn't getting enough milk so the first three days of his life, he lost 8g in weight so the vet told us to hand feed him. Since then, mum's dried up, however, he has started trying to suckle again so we're not sure if he's getting anything from her.


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

Really pleased Charlie is doing well, I always check for updates. Bless him he is so special.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

BeagleOesx said:


> Really pleased Charlie is doing well, I always check for updates. Bless him he is so special.


Thanks 

His weight went up 21g in the past 24 hours which is amazing. We were waiting for him to double his birth weight til we moved onto feeding him every 3 hours which has now happened so we're trying out feeding him every 3 hours today and will weigh him this evening to see how it's going.

He now weighs 217g


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Just looking for a little bit more advice.

The welpi tub we've been using said to give 1.25-2.5ml feed every 2 hours for the first week, 2.5-5ml every 3 hours for the second week and 5 - 7.5ml every 3-4 hours for the third week.

Because Charlie has been struggling, we have increased his feed over the past two weeks, gradually from 1.25ml to 4.5ml every 2 hours until today, when he doubled his birth weight. Today, we decided to try him at 4.5ml every 3 hours (we don't think he'd be able to take more than that in one go) but he's not put any weight on so far (whereas, normally he puts at least 1g on per feed).

Effectively, Charlie is a week behind with his weight so we should now be feeding him every 3 hours. I just phoned the vets and asked what we should do and they said to go back to 2 hourly feeds until he is putting on weight, but he does put on weight with 2 hourly feeds, just not 3 hourly feeds, so should we just try and feed him more or maybe the 4.5ml one hour, then another 1-1.5ml the next hour, then an hour break til he can manage 6ml in one go?

What do you think?

Am off to the vets after his next feed to get some worming stuff they've advised for him.


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

really don't know and have no experience with this but I think if the puppy were small and struggling to take on the food I would stick with the more frequent feeds just so you know that he is getting the right amount. That is if you have the time available as I can see it is very tieing to be feeding so often

That is just a gut feeling from me and not from any knowledge or experience, may be give him a couple more days on the more frequent feeds and try reducing again after that since he is behind anyway


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

We had to take poor little Charlie back to the vets again today (they must be getting fed up with us!)

We started worming him yesterday with Panacur liquid (2.5%) and started feeding him every 3 hours (as per the vets instructions). He's been fine and carried on putting weight on but at 4pm today, we went to feed him and he wasn't active at all (he normally wiggles that much it takes two to feed him). He also started shaking and lying on his back which isn't normal for him. When we were waiting at the vets, he was also sick in the box. After he was sick, he seemed to perk up for a bit then went back to not being very active.

The vets said there's not much we could other than keep him warm and feed him smaller amounts more often (i.e. go back to smaller amounts every 2 hours).

I'm not sure whether this is good advice but it's not very comforting considering we've had one puppy die already. She didn't comment on his shaking or anything and when we asked if we should be worried about it she said 'yes, but at that age there's not much you can do').

We're wondering if it's likely to be a reaction to the worming stuff (we wormed him at 8pm last night and he started acting like this at about 3-4pm this afternoon).

Anyone got any advice please as we're really worried.


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

no advice - just fingers crossed


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Hope all goes okay for your lil pup...Hugs Jill


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

Oh so sorry to hear about the little one, I can only think that is may be to do with the worming paste doing its job and as the little one is not so strong in himself at the moment it is making him shake, I am NOT sure and wouldn't like to give any advice to you at this stage as I have never been in this situation. PM Tanya as she would be able to suggest something to you hopefully, make sure he is taking those smaller meals regularly and offer him some warm water on a dropper just incase he gets dehydrated. Keep his warm too, I do hope he comes through ok and perks up soon. This is only my opinion....but if it is a reaction to the working paste and because he have had a struggle, I would be tempted to hold off on the worming until he is on the road to recovery. BUT as I say that is only my opinion and what I would do. Crossing fingers for you. xxxxx


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Just been back to the emergency vet because he wasn't taking his food. This vet seemed a bit more clued up and was concerned about his gasping and she noticed a couple of bubbles in his nose. She suspects its the start of an infection so has given us some anti biotics.

She said she could give him glucose but it would likely make him think he's full and so he might not want to feed so she said to just feed him until he's had enough (which seems to be 0.1ml at a time) then leave him for a few mins and go back and give him more.

So it looks like it's going to be a long night but the vets have offered to have him in all day tomorrow to keep and eye on him and try to feed him so we're gonna take them up on their offer.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Just been back to the emergency vet because he wasn't taking his food. This vet seemed a bit more clued up and was concerned about his gasping and she noticed a couple of bubbles in his nose. She suspects its the start of an infection so has given us some anti biotics.
> 
> She said she could give him glucose but it would likely make him think he's full and so he might not want to feed so she said to just feed him until he's had enough (which seems to be 0.1ml at a time) then leave him for a few mins and go back and give him more.
> 
> So it looks like it's going to be a long night but the vets have offered to have him in all day tomorrow to keep and eye on him and try to feed him so we're gonna take them up on their offer.


Bless the little man, he's had a rough road haven't he, but he is still with you so is a fighter. glad they found out what it was and have given antibiotics, I dont blame you for letting them have him for the day, it gives you a day to relax and he cant get sorted out and be watched by vets. Hope it all clears up soon. xxxxx


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Charlie lost a fair bit of weight last night (6g) because of him not eating. Thankfully though, after he poop'd, he seemed to be more his normal self and was eating ok (he's been taking 4ml every 2 hours and sucking strong on the syringe) and has put that 6g back on (plus 1). We've decided to still leave him with the vet for the day so are dropping him off at 10. They're going to keep him incubated and will obviously be able to feed him and monitor him and can act quicker if anything happens. 

He is a little fighter and we're so proud of him. One of his eyes started to open in the early hours of this morning too


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

Phew, hopefully Charlie will improve again today. At least as you say with him being at the vets they can keep a close eye on him and it'll give you a well deserved break but you'll probably be thinking & worrying about him all day.

Thinking of you and hope all the news going forwards is positive.xx


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Charlie lost a fair bit of weight last night (6g) because of him not eating. Thankfully though, after he poop'd, he seemed to be more his normal self and was eating ok (he's been taking 4ml every 2 hours and sucking strong on the syringe) and has put that 6g back on (plus 1). We've decided to still leave him with the vet for the day so are dropping him off at 10. They're going to keep him incubated and will obviously be able to feed him and monitor him and can act quicker if anything happens.
> 
> He is a little fighter and we're so proud of him. One of his eyes started to open in the early hours of this morning too


Good Good, so glad he is putting the weight back on again. He is very determined not to let you down isn't he. Have you thought of a name for him yet?


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

We got Charlie back from the vets last night and he was back to his normal self  The vets said he was very active, constantly climbing out of the bed that was in the incubator and they managed to stimulate him after every feed.

We've been watching him since and haven't seen him poop since he came back though. Not sure if he is pooping or not - is there a way to tell? We've tried stimulating him and nothing happens and we read somewhere to try putting a thermometre slightly in his bum and that didn't produce anything either. The mum licks his bits but doesn't pay much attention to his bottom.

He's still active so wondering if he's pooing but we can't see it.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

If you are putting him in with mum then she will still be cleaning him (eating it), so you may not see anything. If you are doing it then get some cotton wool, dampen it in warm water and wipe over his abdomen and genital area keep doing it until he goes, you are probably doing this anyway. some puppies dont poo every single time you do it but they should poo on the 3rd time. Did you get much rest after or were you still worrying about him, I am so glad he is still with you though, tuff little man isn't he. xx


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks for the reply Welshcrazy.

Charlies mum is licking him so could well be eating his poop but in the past he has stood and pooped after mum has licked him. We only tried the cotton wool because we hadn't seen him poop but we've done it constantly for a couple of minutes and he just doesn't do anything (which he probably wouldn't if mum is doing it all for him).

We're just a bit concerned as we haven't seen him poop since we got him back at 8pm last night.

We got a few hours sleep which was nice so feeling a bit more refreshed now 

Yeah he's a very tough boy. He's opened both eyes now so will get a pic up today


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Thanks for the reply Welshcrazy.
> 
> Charlies mum is licking him so could well be eating his poop but in the past he has stood and pooped after mum has licked him. We only tried the cotton wool because we hadn't seen him poop but we've done it constantly for a couple of minutes and he just doesn't do anything (which he probably wouldn't if mum is doing it all for him).
> 
> ...


Oh yeah put a pic up, I would love to see this little man. They look so cute when they "peep" I get so excited when the totally open then lolol. Now mine are weaned Teigan dont eat the poo so much, she still does the odd one now and again though. xxxxx


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Just fed Charlie again and immediately after, he did a massive green poop that had a bit of blood in it. Just phoned the vets and they said that because he's already on antibiotics, monitor his next couple of poops and ring them later this afternoon if we're still concerned. 

Any ideas what it might be?


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

Sorry can't help with poop question but was just checking in on his update & didn't want to read & run. Glad he seems to be coming along though apart from this. 

Can't wait to see his pic. Give him a gentle stroke & hug from me xx


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Just fed Charlie again and immediately after, he did a massive green poop that had a bit of blood in it. Just phoned the vets and they said that because he's already on antibiotics, monitor his next couple of poops and ring them later this afternoon if we're still concerned.
> 
> Any ideas what it might be?


I really dont know but just keep check on his next one if any blood then get in touch with your vet again. Hope nothing else goes wrong for him. xxxx


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

xxwelshcrazyxx said:


> I really dont know but just keep check on his next one if any blood then get in touch with your vet again. Hope nothing else goes wrong for him. xxxx


Thanks. He hasn't pooped since the green one. Would worms make his poo like this? Hope he's ok the poor little fella


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Thanks. He hasn't pooped since the green one. Would worms make his poo like this? Hope he's ok the poor little fella


I have never had my dogs pass blood when they have had worming tablets, so not sure. Is it alot of blood or a speck? If you are worried at all then do as you have been doing and contact your vet, it is such a worry when little things like this happen, just when you hope it all stops. Hope the vets says it is only to do with him being wormed???


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

xxwelshcrazyxx said:


> I have never had my dogs pass blood when they have had worming tablets, so not sure. Is it alot of blood or a speck? If you are worried at all then do as you have been doing and contact your vet, it is such a worry when little things like this happen, just when you hope it all stops. Hope the vets says it is only to do with him being wormed???


When we took him in to the vets the other day, the vets told us to hold off on the worming so we only gave him the Panacur for one day out of the 3 day dosage and because he's now on anti biotics, I don't know if we can mix the two. Was going to restart the worming at 3 weeks.

It was kind of like a string of blood on the outside of the poo. I've read something on the internet suggesting that green poo can mean an infection but if he's on anti biotics that should fight it shouldn't it?


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Couple of pics for you


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

Awwww he's so tiny and so cute. 

C'mon Charlie, we're all rooting for you xx


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## Pets2luv.webs.com (Nov 26, 2010)

Lovely! my first dog was a yorkie she was a fantastic little dog. She was the only survivor of her litter and mum passed away too. Her KC name was Miracle of Steel. We had her for 14 years. I hope your puppies get on okay!


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Couple of pics for you


He is gorgeous, what a cute little face he have. How is he doing today anymore passing of blood?


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Hasn't pooped since 12.15 yesterday lunch time  We're thinking, the blood on his poop yesterday was kinda like a string of blood on the outside of it so might've just strained to push it all out. 

Got ANOTHER trip to the vets at 1.40 today for the vet to check him over and Tanya's suggested asking them to give him an enema. Also, if he poops before then, we'll keep it to take to the vets with us.

Poor little Charlie. He's has such a struggle.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> When we took him in to the vets the other day, the vets told us to hold off on the worming so we only gave him the Panacur for one day out of the 3 day dosage and because he's now on anti biotics, I don't know if we can mix the two. Was going to restart the worming at 3 weeks.
> 
> It was kind of like a string of blood on the outside of the poo. I've read something on the internet suggesting that green poo can mean an infection but if he's on anti biotics that should fight it shouldn't it?


The antibiotics should be working on any infection, keep an eye on him and if he passes anymore blood go back to the vet. Just saw the pic of him he is absolutely gorgeous such a stunner.xxx


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Hasn't pooped since 12.15 yesterday lunch time  We're thinking, the blood on his poop yesterday was kinda like a string of blood on the outside of it so might've just strained to push it all out.
> 
> Got ANOTHER trip to the vets at 1.40 today for the vet to check him over and Tanya's suggested asking them to give him an enema. Also, if he poops before then, we'll keep it to take to the vets with us.
> 
> Poor little Charlie. He's has such a struggle.


hand reared puppies poo should be brownish in colour, greeny colouring is a sign of infection, but as he is already on antibiotics that should be helping to fight it, your vet will check him over to see if he needs more? He have been quite a long time without pooping now and Tanya is right about enema, you dont want him bunged up for too long. He is a lovely puppy. Have you named him yet?


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## DougGeneration (Apr 28, 2011)

This thread reminded me of our first ever pups. We were so anxious that we literally asked the vet what's up every other minute we were there! They looked super cute and adorable when they were born, and they still do up to now... Makes me wonder when would we get to experience that again!

Tigget's pic definitely reminded me of the exact same pup we had before! Possibly because the father was a Yorkie too?(weird because it also looks exactly like him!)


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Just got back from the vets and the vet we saw told us not to worry too much. She said that because he's still feeding and still seems his normal self, the lack of poop is nothing to worry about. She tried to stimulate him and was also unsuccessful so she put some lubricant up his bum to help. 

She also said she's hand reared litters before and some have gone days without pooping.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Just got back from the vets and the vet we saw told us not to worry too much. She said that because he's still feeding and still seems his normal self, the lack of poop is nothing to worry about. She tried to stimulate him and was also unsuccessful so she put some lubricant up his bum to help.
> 
> She also said she's hand reared litters before and some have gone days without pooping.


At least you are doing the right thing by taking little one to the vets and getting it sorted, it puts your mind at rest don't it. You are doing such a wonderful job raising this puppy and I think he is going to strive and grown into a beautiful dog. So have he got a special name now??


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

xxwelshcrazyxx said:


> At least you are doing the right thing by taking little one to the vets and getting it sorted, it puts your mind at rest don't it. You are doing such a wonderful job raising this puppy and I think he is going to strive and grown into a beautiful dog. So have he got a special name now??


Yeah we've called him Charlie and his kennel name is going to be Cheeky Charlie Chan.

Yeah I guess you're right, but we just wish there was something the vet could've done to make him poop. It's been 29 hours since his last poop now.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Yeah we've called him Charlie and his kennel name is going to be Cheeky Charlie Chan.
> 
> Yeah I guess you're right, but we just wish there was something the vet could've done to make him poop. It's been 29 hours since his last poop now.


Have he been and had a poo today? He should of had one by now, if not then vet will have to do an enema for him. xxxx Love his name too.


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Sorry for the slow reply. Charlie did a big poop all by himself yesterday afternoon. It was a normal mustard colour and had no blood in it. Don't think he's pooped since but glad he's at least had one poop 

We've gone back to feeding him every 3 hours to see how that goes with him. He weighed 283g last night so hoping he reaches 300g today


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

tiggerminx said:


> Sorry for the slow reply. Charlie did a big poop all by himself yesterday afternoon. It was a normal mustard colour and had no blood in it. Don't think he's pooped since but glad he's at least had one poop
> 
> We've gone back to feeding him every 3 hours to see how that goes with him. He weighed 283g last night so hoping he reaches 300g today


It sounds like he is settling down now then, at least he have got his bowels moving which is good.  xxxx


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## tiggerminx (Apr 13, 2011)

Sorry for the lack of an update in ages but we've been a bit pre-occupied with little Charlie 

He now weighs 396g and is doing really well. We have successfully completed his first worming and he is now going to the toilet all by himself (although still not pooping as often as he used to, but at least once a day now, sometimes more). He's also started to play with some toys and biting things (including his own front legs) so we went and bought him some teething toys yesterday which he seems to like.

His poop today concerned us a little. We tried him with some carton puppy milk in a saucer which he lapped up really well (we gave him about 2.5ml which is a quarter of his feed). The poop that followed about 2 hours later had a tiny bit of blood in it and had white bits in it. We were just wondering if this is likely to be the change in the milk or as a result of the worming (which we did Thursday, Friday and Saturday).

Also has anyone got any tips on the best way to wean a hand reared pup? We were thinking of giving him 2.5ml per feed in a saucer, then the rest as normal for a day or 2, then increase it to 5ml and so on (we're using 2.5ml syringes to feed him so makes it easier to do 2.5ml increments). Does this sound about right?

Thanks again to everyone who has supported us and helped us get this far with Charlie


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