# Why Breed!?



## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

I really cant help but get annoyed when I see posts from people saying "looking for a stud to breed my bitch" or "I've just mated my dogs" or "puppies/kittens have been born!". Yes I can understand that it is exciting when new babies come into the world and I cant imagine how wonderful it is to see puppies or kittens grow from tiny pink squirmy things to dashing around the house like mad things!!

What I want to know though why are people still insisting on breeding their pets when there's thousands upon thousands of poor animals being killed every week because there are so many in pounds and kennels that hasn't got a home!! Don't you think you are helping to create this situation!?


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

In an ideal world, no one would breed, but people are always going to breed. It's better to encourage the good breeders and educate/stop the bad breeders.

Not everyone wants a rescue dog, not everyone wants an adult. Some people prefer to know their dogs parents, grandparents and further on.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

My dogs are my pets first and foremost, but they are also working dogs (as a hobby) that I also compete with. The decision to breed for me comes firstly, because I want a new pup to keep and also the bitch I want to breed from has qualities that I feel will benefit the gene pool. The bitch will have proven herself both in the working field and in competition and will be fully health tested. 

I don't take it lightly and they will have to be special to be bred from - yes, as you say, it can be wonderful, but there are also a lot of negatives to breeding - the stress, the hard work, the cost, not to mention the fact that it is MY decision to put my much loved bitch through the risks of breeding for MY benefit, not for hers.

I don't keep stud dogs - why would I when I have the choice of all the excellent stud dogs out there so can choose carefully. The likelihood that you own the best stud dog for that particular bitch are not great and even then, you can only use them once, so much easier to use an outside stud.

Sad as it may seem to some, the homes my pups go to would not take a rescue dog - they are looking for a particular breed, often from particular lines, they may well have seen my bitch competing and want one of her pups.

That's my position, but I do agree with you in many ways.


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## purple_x (Dec 29, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> I really cant help but get annoyed when I see posts from people saying "looking for a stud to breed my bitch" or "I've just mated my dogs" or "puppies/kittens have been born!". Yes I can understand that it is exciting when new babies come into the world and I cant imagine how wonderful it is to see puppies or kittens grow from tiny pink squirmy things to dashing around the house like mad things!!
> 
> What I want to know though why are people still insisting on breeding their pets when there's thousands upon thousands of poor animals being killed every week because there are so many in pounds and kennels that hasn't got a home!! Don't you think you are helping to create this situation!?


Couldn't have put it better myself.

I know people breed for better temprement and health but why keep breeding atm when rescue dogs are pts daily because there are just not enough homes for them.
I just dont understand it 
All the cute little puppies go straight off to new homes while rescue dogs never get a chance, it upsets me alot.


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't think it's fair to say that 'breeders' as a whole are responsible for the rescue situation. There are many contributing factors, the biggest one being the throw away society that we live in. The people that put their dogs into rescue usually aren't the people who bred them. A lot of breeders would take back a dog or pup that they've bred no matter how old it is. 

Some of the small rescues aren't as squeaky clean as you may be led to believe either, they scour the ads looking for pets that are free to good home or very cheap and then pass them on for around £150 having done nothing for them apart from make up a sob story in order to sell them.

I see a few people promoting one 'rescue' quite a lot and it really winds me up that this one in particular make a point of taking dogs from puppy farms in Ireland and then asking £170 for them, if they come across a pregnant female will ask the same amount for each pup too... making them no better than the puppy farmer they came from


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

In that ideal world where 'no one' bred there would be no dogs or cats at all! Responsible breeders aren't adding to the overpopulation problem! Irresponsible breeders - back yard breeders, puppy farmers etc and people buying on a whim and chucking out with even less thought are causing the problems. Without responsible breeders there'd be no decent dogs left - all the health tests and careful planning would go. It wouldn't take long either. The trouble is that responsible breeders don't sell to irresponsible people (or if duped then they in general sort out their own problems). These irresponsible people want dogs - so other irresponsible people breed them, some in huge numbers sometimes 200 bitches producing pups! Plus there are the rogue element of breeding for dog fighting or other illegal stuff - they have some extras that they sell to unsuspecting people. There's a huge underground dog world unfortunately.

So, ideally it would only be responsible people breeding - then there wouldn't be the issues, but dogs would be extremely expensive because there wouldn't be many being born. KC wouldn't like it (they get a lot of money from irresponsible breeding even though not all the dogs are registered with them).

As a responsible breeder I do get a bit fed up of being lumped in with irresponsible ones, but I know that some people see breeder and think 'irresponsible'. You can also say that 'rescue' also contributes to the 'problem' as they mop up (I'm not being critical of all or individual rescue which clearly helps the dog in question) problems caused by irresponsible people - ex breeding bitches are rehomed, whole litters taken in, cast off dogs taken from people who'll buy another pup the next week etc. Money is made because awful people don't take care of their dogs to the ends of their life - people can look at the price of a litter - but don't appreciate that any money is outweighed by the costs involved looking after that dog and others who perhaps aren't able to produce pups into old age, maybe the bitch will have £500 worth of tests and only have one or two litters. The irresponsible person wont have had the tests, have their litters, put the dog into rescue, buy another one etc. 

Mind it's not just irresponsible breeders there are quite a few owners who have their dogs pts as soon as they stop winning, get older, or they have a new pup. One person comes to mind who only likes having two dogs at a time - one to compete with (in agility) and one to train. As soon as the one in training starts competing, the older one is pts and a puppy purchased. They're not on their own. For me having a dog, a partner and friend, looking after them in their old age is an honour - not a chore. I've sadly lost 2 now at merely 11, I feel very cheated of their old age, as they have been.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

The point is - the large majority of pups ending up in rescue - whether cross breed or pedigree come from BYB and PF.

I've tried many times to persuade people to go down the rescue route if I don't feel their lifestyle would suit a pup, or am unable to find them a pup - and at less than an average of 5 pups a year sold over the last 4 years - I don't have a hope in hells'' chance of meeting the demand for Lab pups.

Those pups account for just 0.0083333% of the Labradors registered each year and 0.0016000% of all dogs registered year on year.

Some people don't want rescue dog, a large majority want pups - and it is well documented that there has been a significant fall in KC registered pups over the last two years - whilst the rise in demand for pups has risen considerably - where do you think these people then get their pups from? 

If you want to target those who are breeding - then you need to start looking at the PF and BYB who do it cheap and pile them high.

Like Rocco, I breed when I want a pup to continue my line, and with each generation seek to improve conformationally whilst retaining temperament and / or improving health - my pups have gone predominantly outside Wales because a lot of people in Wales would rather buy cheaply from PF - as this is what they've always done, and until something bad happens, they are not going to change their habits - the majority of owners not in the least sadly not in the least bit interested in health tests or how the pups are raised, but solely in what they have to pay - and they see cheap pups as being better than well bred pups  

They ought to talk to my friend and many like her - her 'bargain basement' pup has cost around £30K in vets fees to date - and sadly, far from an isolated incident.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

It still doesn't change my opinion! Every puppy thats born is taking a home away from dogs in the pounds!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Same old same old.

I am a breeder who has bred 5 litters in the last 7 years, with much thought going in to it. ALL my pups have good homes and NONE have gone to 'clog up' Rescue.

I wont be breeding again for at least 3-4 years minimum - and I already have a waiting list. Why shouldnt I breed again???


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Personally, I breed because my breed is ridiculously rare in UK. I breed responsibly, and I am in touch with every puppy owner for the lifetime of the dog. No pup of mine will ever end up in rescue.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> It still doesn't change my opinion! Every puppy thats born is taking a home away from dogs in the pounds!


Are you just being deliberately provocative this morning???

I sold my pups to people who wanted a rottie puppy that was well-bred, a high chance of being healthier than those bred by BYB;s etc and, shock horror - some owners even wanted a show potential pup - EEK - now theres a novelty!  Oh, and I have exported 4 pups abroad - so how does that affect Rescues???

I didnt take a home away from a dog in Rescue by breeding, thank you very much!!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> It still doesn't change my opinion! Every puppy thats born is taking a home away from dogs in the pounds!


not everyone wants a mutt , cross , mongrel, its freedom of choice . this subject has been flogged to death on here.

why do i breed? i do so rarely. (when i want one to show myself.)


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> It still doesn't change my opinion! Every puppy thats born is taking a home away from dogs in the pounds!


I am not sure that is strictly true, you have to remember that many rescues operate quite strict policies on rehoming, so if you fail to meet their criteria they will not allow you to have one.

Thus, where is the prospective dog owner to go?

In addition, some people prefer a particular breed to fulfil a particular purpose.

If, for example, you wanted to compete in Field Trials or Gundog Working Tests, you would be unable to do so with a rescue as apart from being a gundog it must be registered on the Breed Register at the KC.

If I could not have a (insert relevant breed puppy) I will not go to a pound to get something else.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Are you just being deliberately provocative this morning???
> 
> I sold my pups to people who wanted a rottie puppy that was well-bred, a high chance of being healthier than those bred by BYB;s etc and, shock horror - some owners even wanted a show potential pup - EEK - now theres a novelty!  Oh, and I have exported 4 pups abroad - so how does that affect Rescues???
> 
> I didnt take a home away from a dog in Rescue by breeding, thank you very much!!


It does make you wonder if provocation is the mindset of such posts 

How on earth someone can equate a puppy born and homed responsibly as the equivalent of 'leaving another dog in the pound' is incomprehensible and looking at the situation through very rose tinted spectacles.

If you STOPPED all BYB and PF - the only dogs ending up in pounds would be those where the need is genuine, not rehomed "because it turned aggressive at 9 weeks" or "because it doesn't suit the colour of my carpet" or because it's sick and costs too much to repair" or "because I wanted to go on holiday and couldn't be a***d to pay for kennels".

Dogs ending up in rescue would be predominantly genuine cases where family circumstances have changed through health / bereavement / family break up - small scale hobby breeders of the pet, show, agility and working variety could never in a million years meet the gap for puppies - the commercial breeders / puppy farmers / Back yard breeders can - and THAT is where such rose-tinted views ought to be aimed.

We had a BATTERY DOG FARM approved in Wales recently - how many people who feel so damn strongly about it have actually signed the petition fighting it - a kennel with *200 dogs and 2 staff * run as a battery dog farm - yet when it's time to put your money when your mouth is (and it doesn't even require money) - so many people just cannot be bothered to take two minutes to sign - There are literally HUNDREDS of these type establishments across Wales and less so, but still existing in the other home nations and England - if you want to put your views to good use for anyone who feels like this - sign the petition in the hope that finally, we may have enough power behind it to stop these barbaric practices happening 

https://www.assemblywales.org/getho...atories.htm?pet_id=624&showfrm=1#SignPetition

How many who truly believe that breeders shouldn't be breeding for the miniscule percentage of pups they actually produce WILL actually sign this petition  - I know some have - but certainly the volumes of signatures are nothing compared to the number of people who shout so loudly on the subject


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

swarthy said:


> It does make you wonder if provocation is the mindset of such posts
> 
> How on earth someone can equate a puppy born and homed responsibly as the equivalent of 'leaving another dog in the pound' is incomprehensible and looking at the situation through very rose tinted spectacles.
> 
> ...


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> It still doesn't change my opinion! Every puppy thats born is taking a home away from dogs in the pounds!


But it isn't. That is a fallacious argument often used by people who don't think things through properly.

As people have already explained on here, people who want a puppy from a particular breed for a particular purpose (ie working or showing) would not take a dog from rescue even if there were no suitable pups available from responsible breeders.

I understand your anguish at the rescue situation, but stopping responsible breeding would not alter the situation and would only end up with good, strong, healthy lines disappearing until all we were left with were the poor examples of overbreeding/inbreeding etc etc from puppy farmers and bybs - because that is where the majority of dogs in rescue are coming from.

ETA - whoops - wrote this before I read Cearott's post above! Great minds think alike, eh?

ETA - Whoops again - and Swarthy's post! I must really start to read to the end of threads before I jump in an answer


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Yes, I have produced the extremyl high number of 29 pups!![/B]


Haha - yes - same here - 23 pups - 4 of which I still own - three living with me and one in France in joint ownership.

That's a massive total of 52 pups over HOW many years?  - say 4 years (and I 'think' you've been breeding longer than me) - that's *0.005200000%* of all dogs registered with the KC during that time


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> But it isn't. That is a fallacious argument often used by people who don't think things through properly.
> 
> As people have already explained on here, people who want a puppy from a particular breed for a particular purpose (ie working or showing) would not take a dog from rescue even if there were no suitable pups available from responsible breeders.
> 
> I understand your anguish at the rescue situation, but stopping responsible breeding would not alter the situation and would only end up with good, strong, healthy lines disappearing until all we were left with were the poor examples of overbreeding/inbreeding etc etc from puppy farmers and bybs - because that is where the majority of dogs in rescue are coming from.


I would put money on the fact that the BYB's and pup farmers produce dogs which are far more inbred than any show dog!!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Haha - yes - same here - 23 pups - 4 of which I still own - three living with me and one in France in joint ownership.
> 
> That's a massive total of 52 pups over HOW many years?  - say 4 years (and I 'think' you've been breeding longer than me) - that's *0.005200000%* of all dogs registered with the KC during that time


LOL! Yes, 3 living with me and 1 in partnership in Wales


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Ceearott said:


> I would put money on the fact that the BYB's and pup farmers produce dogs which are far more inbred than any show dog!!


And you'd win!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> And you'd win!


last seen heading off in the direction of the local Ladbrokes.......................

:lol::lol::lol:


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

The way I look at it is puppy buyers are always going to want a puppy; they have for one reason or another, decided not to go down the rescue route. If the good breeders stop breeding, the puppy buyers will go to the bad breeders instead. The bad breeders aren't going to stop breeding and the rescues aren't going to stop rescuing.


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## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

I had a phone call from a lady this morning enquiring about my upcoming Cavalier litter. She was very specific about the colour and sex she wanted, and her reasons for that were understandable, she'd always had either...or...had grown up with them, and so on.

Now that lady doesn't want a rescue, and why should she? We al want different things for different reasons. Maybe she's not 'suitable' for them,and their strict and often exclusive criteria. Maybe she has happy memories of her last dog as a puppy and wants to do all that again? Whatever!

Now, if she doesn't get one from me, or another good, ethical breeder, she will go to another breeder, and another, till she gets her puppy, the one she wants. She's not going to compromise her requirements. 

Eventually, not necessarily her, but some buyers will end up going to the wrong sort of breeder who churns out so many pups it'll be easy to get your pick. Buyer is happy - but inevitably some of the rest of those litters will end up in rescue.

There has to be good, ethical breeders, or everyone who wants a pet puppy and who dont/cant get from rescue will be forced into going to a byb/pf. They won't have the choice! Then even more will end up in rescue. 

Give people the chance to source healthy puppies from ethical breeders or you risk making the rescue situation worse - much worse!!


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm as against BYB's as anyone else here but let's be clear that there is a world of difference between a BYB who's in it for the money and an ethical breeder who breeds to better the breed.

If there were no ethical breeders in the world then dogs as a species would have become extinct years ago.

TBH OP I find your posts shortsighted and inflammatory, it's not so simple as blaming breeders for the populations in rescue. Are you involved with rescue? Because I bloody well am and I can tell you now that many dogs come in because of the irresponsible attitude of the people who bought them in the first place and can't be arsed to train, excercise or socialise them and dump them in shelters when they pee on the floor/chew the sofa/bite a child.

There are also many thousands of cases who come in for genuine reasons, death or terminal illness of the owner, severe financial hardship of the owner, family break ups or downs where the dogs is left alone for many hours at a time because there is now only one adult in the house who needs to work and they gift the dog in so the dog can be re-homed to somewhere more suitable.

It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think it is. Both of my dogs are rescues, both had genuine reasons for being rehomed. I've never in my life purchased a pup and probably never will, but I will defend anyone's right to do so if that's what's best for them and their family.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I am one of the team at a rescue who tries to save dogs from the pounds and destruction. There are so many we can't even save them all from one pound each week let alone the stuff that goes on week after week all over the UK.

I have probably moderated my views on breeding over the past year or so; and recognise there is a place for responsible breeders who do everything right and take responsibility for their pups.

From a rescues point of view though i do always get annoyed when people say breeders are there for people rejected by rescue - yes some rescues have strict criteria, but not all - if you are that keen to rescue a dog you will find the right one (my boy came from a large city dog pound and I had no checks done, he was not neutered - many pounds rehome nad often the option is destruction so you realy are saving a dogs life!).... if I was a breeder I would have the same strict criteria and vetting process that a rescue might have? if i was rejected by that many rescues I might start to question my circumstances and do what I could to change them instead of demanding my right to have a dog and finding someone who will sell me one.

I think that there are several issues that would need addressing...

a) peoples perception that rescue dogs all have issues and a puppy is best
b) peoples 'right' to have a dog regardless of their situation; and potentially subsequent 'right' to not train the dog/ dispose of it when things don't work - the 'throwaway society'. Some people genuinely don't care their ex dog is in the pound and due to be PTS.
c) Education of puppy/ dog buyers into looking for responsible breeding and what is a bad bYB or puppy farm bred dog. Might be cheaper to start with but could cost alot more
d) peoples perception of the staffie. I get enquiries for people wanting an excellent family dog they describe a staffie to a T, but always end it with a statement like 'but not a staffie they can turn on a child at any time'
e) Education and knowledge of what really happens to dogs who end up at the pound - they don't all go to a lovely big rescue in the countryside.
f) stop the churning out of staffies constantly!

Alot of it I see as education into people about exploring their options and choices and responsiblities when rehoming/buying a dog.

I know of people who wanted a particular breed of dog and rescue nor responsible breeders would not rehome to them; so they broughta puppy farm dog because that was the dog they wanted and didn't want to listen to advise of people who knew the breed and it was £200 cheaper. 

I know of dogs in the pound as they are naughty, so the owner dumped them to get a new one, with the same lack of training it will be naughty too.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> From a rescues point of view though i do always get annoyed when people say breeders are there for people rejected by rescue - yes some rescues have strict criteria, but not all - if you are that keen to rescue a dog you will find the right one


I too find this perplexing. Good breeders also have strict homing criteria and the chances are that if someone has been refused a rescue, they will not pass a good breeder's criteria so those who are refused rescues will tend to go to poor breeders anyway. obviously there are exceptions, and criteria varies from rescue to rescue. I've heard of some cases where if you walk into the rescue/pound, as long as you have the fee, you get the dog!



> if I was a breeder I would have the same strict criteria and vetting process that a rescue might have? if i was rejected by that many rescues I might start to question my circumstances and do what I could to change them instead of demanding my right to have a dog and finding someone who will sell me one.


Exactly and they are unlikely to get one from a good breeder either so will end up getting one from a byb.


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

This was what swayed us to not breed ourselves. I couldn't live with myself knowing I had put more puppies into the world when so many are being put to sleep just because there aren't enough homes for them. 

IMO, puppies are too readily available. You wouldn't believe how many times I've spoken to people about getting a new dog and rescuing one hadn't even crossed their minds. Most of us on here are well aware of the rescue crisis, probably because we have animals as a main interest, but not all of the general public know this.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't think the general public is aware of the situation; until it comes to time to look for a dog why would they be if not in the rescue/ forum circles? Even if you rescue you might dip into the rescue to look for and home a dog but its not until you look into it more you realise.

We have people who are genuine dog lovers who have no idea what goes on with dogs after 7 days - people accuse us at the rescue of making up the dogs are put to sleep just to get more money from people etc.

There are features on the news abou the plight of bull breeds etc but again lot of the public think they are all status dogs or fighting dogs or as staffies they don't matter or theres somethign wrong with them etc.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> I really cant help but get annoyed when I see posts from people saying "looking for a stud to breed my bitch" or "I've just mated my dogs" or "puppies/kittens have been born!". Yes I can understand that it is exciting when new babies come into the world and I cant imagine how wonderful it is to see puppies or kittens grow from tiny pink squirmy things to dashing around the house like mad things!!
> 
> What I want to know though why are people still insisting on breeding their pets when there's thousands upon thousands of poor animals being killed every week because there are so many in pounds and kennels that hasn't got a home!! Don't you think you are helping to create this situation!?


Why breed? Because people are selfish and have the attitude of "if I want to breed my dog, why shouldn't I?". I'm not talking about good breeders here, but I think they have a duty to cut down on breeding at the moment too; they aren't above this problem created by human kind.

As for people who wouldn't want a rescue/mut/cross etc - well then unless they have a damn good reason they're just snobs who shouldn't have a dog in the first place. You cant claim to be a dog lover but only want one if its a certain breed, looks a certain way and isnt a cross.

I'm sick of hearing people make excuses as to why a rescue isn't good enough for them, just as much as I'm sick of rescues who have ridiculously hard tests to pass before allowing someone to take a dog home. I'm sick of people giving up their pups at the drop of a hat and I'm sick of "breeders" who bring these pups into the world out of purely selfish reasons. :mad2:

IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

EmCHammer said:


> I don't think the general public is aware of the situation; until it comes to time to look for a dog why would they be if not in the rescue/ forum circles? Even if you rescue you might dip into the rescue to look for and home a dog but its not until you look into it more you realise.
> 
> We have people who are genuine dog lovers who have no idea what goes on with dogs after 7 days - people accuse us at the rescue of making up the dogs are put to sleep just to get more money from people etc.
> 
> There are features on the news abou the plight of bull breeds etc but again lot of the public think they are all status dogs or fighting dogs or as staffies they don't matter or theres somethign wrong with them etc.


Education needs to start at the bottom though - if people stopped buying from poor breeders - medium to long term term, the pressure on rescue would diminish considerably.

Too many people want their puppy NOW - they don't want to wait, they often have no consideration of the significance of health-tests unless they, or someone close to them has been affected by problems with a puppy / dog bought from a puppy farm and are not prepared to pay for it.

I don't wholly agree that someone unsuitable for rescue won't be suitable for a pup - we couldn't get a rescue when we were looking for our oldest as two years of trawling the rescues established my daughter simply didn't have the confidence to enable us to take an older dog.

A couple of years on, and we started looking again, but the rescues wouldn't home to us because my girl was entire - because accidents can still happen with two girls living in the same house  (now that's something my parents definitely didn't tell me about the birds and the bees).

The only rescue who would didn't turn us away didn't even realise that the bitch we took out for a wander was just about to drop a litter by her litter brother until we told them she was clearly heavily in whelp - only then did they 'confess' they had only just separated the two dogs as they had come in together when an old lady died 

Then I had my lifelong interest in showing re-ignited and the rest as they say is history - but I've known others try to rescue staffies and other breeds - and getting the same response.

Yet, there would be nothing to stop someone taking home a rescue and then the following week bringing in a pup / older entire dog - clearly honesty isn't always the best policy.

In fact, I know a number of people who have older rescues and now have entire dogs they show and breed.

I've been handy when I've been asked to emergency foster or take dogs from one side of the country to another, but not good enough to own one of their residents 

================================

Anyhow, back to the main point and that is - if where people wanted puppies, if they bought them responsibly in the first place, there would be far less dogs ending up in rescues - most good breeders have reduced the number of pups they breed because of the current economic climate - but the PF and BYB haven't - they are still churning them out at the same rate, probably faster - because people are now struggling to get pups from good breeders.

Only last week I failed to find chocolate Lab pups within about a 300 mile radius pups for several people - they want pups not rescues whatever you try to say to them - ad some will get fed up waiting - and we know what will happen then 

THESE are the breeders that need to be stopped - but that so often goes over the heads of evangalists - if they didn't breed - there wouldn't be so many pups and a significant reduction in the number of rescues required and the dogs ending up there.

Most PF produce* three to four times the number of pups in a week* that people like me produce in a 5 year period - put THAT into perspective


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

All I would like to see is that people do their research first be it they go to rescue or breeder or private rehome; so they know the breed they are interested in, what type of dog might suit them; to think about their circumstances re pup/ oldie and also research dog ownership, training etc either then

a) find a good rescue centre who does all the right things and will match their requirements and rehomes responsibly
b) find a good breeder who does all the right things etc etc re a)

Responsible ownership plays a huge part too; as often three are not dumped puppies in rescue but teenage or older dogs; so they are finding homes but people give up on them when they get to a certain age, instead of teh 'dog for life' principle (excepting of course genuine reasons).

What I get fed up of too is people who dump their dogs who have major health or behavioural issues for someone else to pick up the pieces; so the dog spends its last days straying, in a pound is PTS or goes to rescue maybe or a home where the issues are discovered and the dog ends up being put to sleep; somethign the old owner should have done rather than turfing the dog out and absolving themselves of responsibilities -if you care so little for your ill dog that you turf it out on the street to take its chances why not just do the right thing ifyou can't afford to look after it ?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

saw an ad this morning staffy pups £80. goodness knows what sort of owner the poor things would attract . so why bother to breed them, there are so many in rescue already. There are so many pups about now everyone and anyone seems to breed now to earn a few £'s with no thought of where the pups could end up.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Angels_Sin said:


> As for people who wouldn't want a rescue/mut/cross etc - well then unless they have a damn good reason they're just snobs who shouldn't have a dog in the first place. You cant claim to be a dog lover but only want one if its a certain breed, looks a certain way and isnt a cross.


I didn't want a rescue dog when I was looking for a dog. I wanted a specific breed and a specific colour. yes, you get cocker spaniels in rescues, but I wanted a chocolate roan cocker spaniel and I wanted the pup to have health tested parent/s (Ollie's sire is health tested clear, his dam wasn't, but he wouldn't be affected by the diseases). Yeah, maybe that makes me a snob, but I wanted a certain look, and the chocolate roan colour just amazed me.


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

I watched a link posted on facebook yesterday and it was about puppy farmers. One woman had bought from a puppy shop :confused1: and it later come about that this shop gets the dogs from puppy farms... surprise surprise  So this woman was shown video footage of one of the farms and the conditions the animals are kept in, she looked mortified and understandably so but where did she think this puppy shop was getting them ??

When you go to toysRus, do you imagine that each toy has been lovingly made by hand in a family home or do you imagine that they've been mass produced in a factory with the pure intention of making money ?? Why oh why would anyone think that a dogsRus are any different ??? 

This woman and many like her are helping to keep these puppy farmers in business and have the nerve to be shocked and horrified when they are forced to see the conditions the dogs and puppies are kept in.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I didn't want a rescue dog when I was looking for a dog. I wanted a specific breed and a specific colour. yes, you get cocker spaniels in rescues, but I wanted a chocolate roan cocker spaniel and I wanted the pup to have health tested parent/s (Ollie's sire is health tested clear, his dam wasn't, but he wouldn't be affected by the diseases). Yeah, maybe that makes me a snob, but I wanted a certain look, and the chocolate roan colour just amazed me.


There is nothing wrong with having a type of dog you fall in love with, I have a few breeds that I particularly admire. But I think it's pretty sad when people don't even consider a rescue, and would never even dream of trying to help one of those poor dogs that need a home so badly  I really hate this 'I want so I'm entitled to have' attitude in this country.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Angels_Sin said:


> There is nothing wrong with having a type of dog you fall in love with, I have a few breeds that I particularly admire. But I think it's pretty sad when people don't even consider a rescue, and would never even dream of trying to help one of those poor dogs that need a home so badly  I really hate this 'I want so I'm entitled to have' attitude in this country.


I would say that I would have a rescue now. Our next dog would probably be an older lab or retriever bitch because Ollie gets on best with these types of dogs. Our circumstances and needs/wants have changed so a rescue dog would be our best option when we get another one, but 3 years ago, it just wasn't an option because I wanted a puppy and a certain look.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Angels_Sin said:


> Why breed? Because people are selfish and have the attitude of "if I want to breed my dog, why shouldn't I?". I'm not talking about good breeders here, but I think they have a duty to cut down on breeding at the moment too; they aren't above this problem created by human kind.
> 
> As for people who wouldn't want a rescue/mut/cross etc - well then unless they have a damn good reason they're just snobs who shouldn't have a dog in the first place. You cant claim to be a dog lover but only want one if its a certain breed, looks a certain way and isnt a cross.
> 
> ...


I really think you are a bit blinkered here. Why are you being a snob because you want a puppy of a certain breed. Why are you not a dog lover if you want the same. 
I have had rescues in the past when it has suited me but I have to say I have never really bonded with an older dog. I like having a pup, and I know what I want. I am not going to go to a rescue and get a staffie or staffie cross just because it needs a home. How would it help if I got a breed I did not want. (nothing against staffies but they are not for me).

I have also bred because I want to. Why shouldnt I. The puppies have been well reared and gone to good homes. I have hardly added to the rescue situation and the number of pups I have bred over 35 years are negligible. Maybe 13 puppies.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Angels_Sin said:


> There is nothing wrong with having a type of dog you fall in love with, I have a few breeds that I particularly admire. But I think it's pretty sad when people don't even consider a rescue, and would never even dream of trying to help one of those poor dogs that need a home so badly  I really hate this 'I want so I'm entitled to have' attitude in this country.


Hmmmmm I wonder if you have considered the fact that many people who do NOT have rescues spend a great deal helping breed rescue?

For example I know many owners who assess dogs that have been put up for rehoming; assess homes for potential rehomers and who transport dogs from A to B.

There are also many who provide kennels, fostering, and training/behavioural help for free.

People help in all sorts of different ways as it is not always possible for some of them to have a rescue dog.

Just a thought.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

Blitz said:


> I really think you are a bit blinkered here. Why are you being a snob because you want a puppy of a certain breed. Why are you not a dog lover if you want the same.
> I have had rescues in the past when it has suited me but I have to say I have never really bonded with an older dog. I like having a pup, and I know what I want. I am not going to go to a rescue and get a staffie or staffie cross just because it needs a home. How would it help if I got a breed I did not want. (nothing against staffies but they are not for me).
> 
> I have also bred because I want to. Why shouldnt I. The puppies have been well reared and gone to good homes. I have hardly added to the rescue situation and the number of pups I have bred over 35 years are negligible. Maybe 13 puppies.


My comment doesn't really apply to you then does it, because you have rescued dogs before so it's not like it's something you turn your nose up at. What I meant was, people who would never even consider a rescue even if their ideal puppy wasn't available, annoy me. I was ranting so may not have been clear, but yes, to me, just like an idiot who wants a staff because it makes him look 'ard, or the bimbo who wants a tiny dog she can put in her handbag because Paris Hilton has one is selfish, stupid and not a dog lover.

Again, my comment about breeding, I did make it clear I wasn't talking about good responsible breeders who care about their pups welfare. It sounds as though you belong in that category. If you dont though, and you didnt health test, find homes, etc, then there would be a million reasons as to why you shouldnt!


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> Hmmmmm I wonder if you have considered the fact that many people who do NOT have rescues spend a great deal helping breed rescue?
> 
> For example I know many owners who assess dogs that have been put up for rehoming; assess homes for potential rehomers and who transport dogs from A to B.
> 
> ...


Hence my comment "if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". People who do their bit to help, obviously are part of the solution.

I wish people would read my posts properly before attacking what I say!!


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## dimah (Jul 13, 2011)

Wouldn't it be more constructive to think about ways to stop the irresponsible breeding instead of having a go at the responsible ones?

I mean, I'm fairly certain that everyone who has posted in this thread cares about their dogs and would never let their dog end up in a rescue if it was in their power to do so.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to discourage the "backyard" breeders by introducing some way to penalise them or making it illegal to do so without being able to trace their dogs if they end up in rescues or abandoned, or haven't health checked the parents before breeding whether pedigree or not? 

Or if we could somehow trace ALL dogs back to their breeder and original owner, there must be a way to discourage the many people who are buying puppies "on the cheap" and then dumping them if they develop health problems/behavioural or can't be bothered to keep feeding them etc.

I don't know, I just don't think the responsible breeders are to blame. From what I understand these are the people more likely to turn irresponsible owners away and take back their bred dogs and prevent adding to the rescue dog problem in the first place.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

dimah said:


> Wouldn't it be more constructive to think about ways to stop the irresponsible breeding instead of having a go at the responsible ones?
> 
> I mean, I'm fairly certain that everyone who has posted in this thread cares about their dogs and would never let their dog end up in a rescue if it was in their power to do so.
> 
> ...


Totally agree, as I said on another thread recently, I really think you should have to have a licence to be a breeder.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

If responsible breeders stopped overnight, do you think the rest of them would, or do you think they'd rub their hands with glee and just breed more to make up for the lack of supply?

It's the buyers that need to up their game, unfortunately, many just don't want to be bothered, even if offered help many just want that particular colour and breed, and they want it now.



SEVEN_PETS said:


> I didn't want a rescue dog when I was looking for a dog. I wanted a specific breed and a specific colour. yes, you get cocker spaniels in rescues, but I wanted a chocolate roan cocker spaniel and I wanted the pup to have health tested parent/s (Ollie's sire is health tested clear, his dam wasn't, but he wouldn't be affected by the diseases). Yeah, maybe that makes me a snob, but I wanted a certain look, and the chocolate roan colour just amazed me.


Completely separately btw, I would have said Ollie is a liver and white, more than roan? He's quite clearly marked, roaning tends to be more dense marking throughout the white patches, and this can be because a young pup shows the signs that it may roan up later, and then just doesn't. I know someone with a black and white cocker, which has slight roan markings on, but is more patched than roaned. Having said that, I don't think I've seen many pics of Ollie from the side, he just looks more patched from the pic in your avatar to me


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Completely separately btw, I would have said Ollie is a liver and white, more than roan? He's quite clearly marked, roaning tends to be more dense marking throughout the white patches, and this can be because a young pup shows the signs that it may roan up later, and then just doesn't. I know someone with a black and white cocker, which has slight roan markings on, but is more patched than roaned. Having said that, I don't think I've seen many pics of Ollie from the side, he just looks more patched from the pic in your avatar to me


I'm sure we've had this conversation before. 

I think technically, he is a chocolate roan, just a very light one. His mum is a chocolate roan (fairly dark) and his dad is a blue roan. To my knowledge, roan is dominant over open markings, so if both parents are dominant roan, then the pups all have to be roan.

There is a recent picture of his side on this thread. When he's clipped, he shows his roaning more. When he's a little longer, his spots disappear.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-photo-galleries/197915-ollies-new-haircut.html
the second picture shows more of his roaning. they were taken on flash so his white shows more.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

threads like this do my head in can someone tell me what a BYB is?????


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

A BYB is a Back Yard Breeder


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Leanne77 said:


> A BYB is a Back Yard Breeder


yeah but what makes a breeder as such? is it all down to KC registration or how the dog/pups are cared for?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I'm sure we've had this conversation before.
> 
> I think technically, he is a chocolate roan, just a very light one. His mum is a chocolate roan (fairly dark) and his dad is a blue roan. To my knowledge, roan is dominant over open markings, so if both parents are dominant roan, then the pups all have to be roan.
> 
> ...


We may have done, and my memory is awful I'm afraid, I'd still say he's not fully roaned up, and I don't want to post pics as I've come a cropper of googling them before, but when *I* think of a roaned dog, it's an equal mix of markings, although you can see patches still, if that makes sense? I was looking at a blue roaned cocker dog a friend of mine bred recently, with black patches (obviously) but the roaned areas were an equal mix of black and white, to make up the blue roan. Ollie's more liver and white to me, with some roaning, if that makes sense? Which is nothing against Ollie, just more an individual pigeon holing of where I'd stick any dog in the roaning category 



DKDREAM said:


> yeah but what makes a breeder as such? is it all down to KC registration or how the dog/pups are cared for?


No, it's down to intention of the breeder basically, if they care about a breed or cross breed, they will health test appropriately, only breed occasionally, usually to keep a pup back but not always, and they will ensure a contract is in place and endorsements if KC registered, to ensure any pups come back to them or are rehomed with their express agreement, and none are to be bred from in the future unless they meet specific criteria. If all breeders did this, and set their benchmark for endorsements high enough, it would be the end of byb's and puppy farmers overnight.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> It still doesn't change my opinion! Every puppy thats born is taking a home away from dogs in the pounds!


No it isn't. Some breeds hardly ever appear in rescue. Not everyone wants a Staffy or Staffy cross. If you want a dog for a particular working purpose, it can be very difficult to find one in rescue. If you have a job, or small kids, the rescue often wouldn't let you have the dog anyway.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

here's a link about roaning in cockers:

Cocker Colours (Part 3)

_The factor for "roaning" is the most dominant of the particolour patterns as we know them. It seems to be a gene with a wide spectrum of variety in how it is expressed. Some roans are quite deep with a high proportion of black (in the blues), liver (in the liver/chocolate roans), orange (the counterpart of red) or lemon (the counterpart of golden) hairs compared to white hairs present in the roaned areas of the skin. There seems to be every combination of proportion of these mixed hairs right from very, very dark roan down to the lightest of roans in all of these colours where the white hairs are present in much higher proportion than the coloured hairs on the roaned areas of the coat.
_

and he has fully pigmentated brown/liver feet and pads.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> yeah but what makes a breeder as such? is it all down to KC registration or how the dog/pups are cared for?


You'll probably get as many different answers to that question as you get replies 

The idea that KC registration makes it ok to breed seems to be a widely held misconception. There are plenty of KC registered dogs that shouldn't be bred from and although it should be a necessity, there are exceptions. GBDA does breed from and register many of it's puppies, but it also carefully breeds crosses too - so there one valid example of an exception.

For me, there are so many criteria for responsible breeding that it is difficult to give a strict definition for a BYB.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Angels_Sin said:


> Totally agree, as I said on another thread recently, I really think you should have to have a licence to be a breeder.


ooooh no - this is EXACTLY what small hobby breeders in Wales are fighting against - we don't want to be lumped in the PF they already can't control and keep granting licenses for.

The recent attempt at bringing in new legislation in Wales caused absolute uproar - it was insanity at every level and would have caused the cessation of pretty much every small scale hobby breeder in the country.

There is a KC scheme which admittedly isn't perfect - but they are working at improving it - it's a huge undertaking to negotiate with the breed clubs for every single breed and nail down the rules and regulations - but it is getting there.

Licensed more often than not means large scale breeders - there is no money to police all breeders if everyone had to be licensed and the requirements of such proposals so far have been totally prohibitive to small scale breeders - this would ultimately make the PF situation WORSE and hence the rescue situation worse.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> here's a link about roaning in cockers:
> 
> Cocker Colours (Part 3)
> 
> ...


I'm not disputing that, but for me, his white patches seem, in photographs, to be liver and white with a bit of roaning, but not roaned to the full extent, which I've heard of as 'not roaning up' when describing a pup with the potential to develop roan markings, that doesn't quite but does to some extent, if that makes sense. But then photographs may not convey his full colouring, but for me, roaning is quite different to patches, I don't currently look after any roaned cockers, but the difference is definitely quite spectacular.

Anyway, I'm in danger of taking this thread off topic, but with regards to the roan, it shows how easy it is to buy a pup that should be roaned, not saying your boy isn't, but in some instances that pup may not go on to fulfill that potential. I think there are similar issues with some grehound and whippet colourations, so you may *want* a particular colour, but that colour may never develop to the full potential the buyer wanted.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not disputing that, but for me, his white patches seem, in photographs, to be liver and white with a bit of roaning, but not roaned to the full extent, which I've heard of as 'not roaning up' when describing a pup with the potential to develop roan markings, that doesn't quite but does to some extent, if that makes sense. But then photographs may not convey his full colouring, but for me, roaning is quite different to patches, I don't currently look after any roaned cockers, but the difference is definitely quite spectacular.
> 
> Anyway, I'm in danger of taking this thread off topic, but with regards to the roan, it shows how easy it is to buy a pup that should be roaned, not saying your boy isn't, but in some instances that pup may not go on to fulfill that potential. I think there are similar issues with some grehound and whippet colourations, so you may *want* a particular colour, but that colour may never develop to the full potential the buyer wanted.


yes, we are taking it a little off topic. 

I agree that he's not the "ideal" roan, but whether he's roan, liver and white or ticked, he's still my special little boy.  :001_wub:

ok, back to topic.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> yeah but what makes a breeder as such? is it all down to KC registration or how the dog/pups are cared for?


as Rocco says - it means a lot of things - for pedigree breeds on the KC register then yes, I think KC registration is an important part of it - but it's only one component - another component is health-testing - yet another component is whether finding the right homes for the pups is more important than selling them to the first person who asks - it's how the pups are raised, how they are kept, how they are socialised - how the whole picture appears to prospective puppy buyers - I always tell mine, if there is any aspect they are not happy with, they should walk away.

Obviously - cross-breeds can't be KC registered - but there are lots of discussions ongoing about the best way forward for the small number of responsible breeders of crosses - and whether I agree with it or not, it's not going to go away - so the stance has to be education of both breeders (where necessary) and puppy buyers (predominantly essential - this could actually result in an increased price for crosses (which already gauls many of us) - but if it means it gets done properly and doesn't hurt either the dogs or their owners - then it's a by-product most will probably stomach.

As already mentioned, GDBA already purposely breed some crosses - but all done for a specific reason - and using health-tested dogs.

What makes a good breeder will vary - but it would help greatly if people did their research before buying a puppy - it's as good a starting point as any.


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## Lady.turbo.wrx (Apr 14, 2011)

*My personal opinion is that you cannot hold a responsible breeder Guilty for there being so many Rescues out there,i myself have had both rescues and bought of a breeder,Zeus was got from a breeder purely because i wanted a male puppy,from around 8 weeks..i must add i did try the rescue centre's first,but even though im an experienced Staffy owner Zeus being my 3rd (ALSO HAD A RESCUE PITBULL) Because i had children under 8 was deemed unsuitable to even concider,yet staffies are brilliant with kids.. or at least mine are,i could of understood trying to adopt an older staffy but the ones i saw were 10 weeks old 

But getting back to money making breeders,in there effort to make money quickly,they sell there dog cheaply without papers at around 5-6 weeks,having not been wormed or had there vacs..the most common is the staffy,who are cute little bundles to start with,by about 4 months,that cute little bundle,is chewing being defiant,getting much bigger so harder to handle for some,so there either handed over to a rescue centre where over half are staffies,or dumped miles away from anywhere,is the above down to the responsable breeder,most deffinately not!!!!*


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I thoiught cross breeds could be registered on the KC Activity Register?

This is how there is a register of WSDs (also used for breeding purposes) and of course all dogs that participate in KC licensed competitions must be registered with the KC.

This is how mutts can become (insert relevant discipline) champions.
Thre are many very famous affixes which bred deliberate crosses for obedience and Working Trials which became Champions, Coltriever, Melnola, "little" etc.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Just catching up, lol! Cant be chuffed to go back and find the post but -

Found out because I love the look and size (amongst other things) of a Rottie and want to own them from pups and show them and dont really want to own another breed (at this moment in time anyways) I must be a snob - OOH!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I thoiught cross breeds could be registered on the KC Activity Register?
> 
> This is how there is a register of WSDs (also used for breeding purposes) and of course all dogs that participate in KC licensed competitions must be registered with the KC.
> 
> ...


They can be registered in their name only, so no history or record of any health testing as such, in the way the KC pedigree database can be used. I know of lots of cross breeds deliberately done to compete with, or even work with, but that information is lost, because only the name you give that cross breed is recorded, nothing else.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Not sure what it makes me I would be quite happy owning brindle male staffie crosses forever - societies least loved type of dog.

Digressing onto this quote



> but even though im an experienced Staffy owner Zeus being my 3rd (ALSO HAD A RESCUE PITBULL) Because i had children under 8 was deemed unsuitable to even concider,yet staffies are brilliant with kids.. or at least mine are,i could of understood trying to adopt an older staffy but the ones i saw were 10 weeks old


We agree at our rescue staffies are brilliant with kids; but most of ours are from unknown backgrounds; EVERYONE says there kids are good with dogs and know how to behave around them when we beg to differ and unfortunately have to really err on the side of caution, to make sure we don't get it wrong. That probably means some goo families loose out but its a risk we have to take.. doesn't mean you are unsuitable although know that it may feel like that.

We have just upped the ages of families we will rehome to because over 50% of dogs (aka staffies mostly at our rescue) who were rehomed to families with children were bouncing back due to issues with the dogs and children. One nearly resulted in the dog being put down when it wasn't the dogs fault when the truth came out.

Not sure re puppies we never have any for rehoming ourselves!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> They can be registered in their name only, so no history or record of any health testing as such, in the way the KC pedigree database can be used. I know of lots of cross breeds deliberately done to compete with, or even work with, but that information is lost, because only the name you give that cross breed is recorded, nothing else.


Really?

That is odd because when I get the Breed Supplements with all the hip scores, eye testing etc done, there are cross breeds in there with their health tests including hip, elbow, eyes etc and everyone knows how they are bred and who is behind them.

How strange...........


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> I really cant help but get annoyed when I see posts from people saying "looking for a stud to breed my bitch" or "I've just mated my dogs" or "puppies/kittens have been born!". Yes I can understand that it is exciting when new babies come into the world and I cant imagine how wonderful it is to see puppies or kittens grow from tiny pink squirmy things to dashing around the house like mad things!!
> 
> What I want to know though why are people still insisting on breeding their pets when there's thousands upon thousands of poor animals being killed every week because there are so many in pounds and kennels that hasn't got a home!! Don't you think you are helping to create this situation!?


i agree about seeing the adds on websites, abit annoying, and clearly just people out to make a few bucks

but i also dont think its very fair blaming breeders for the rescue problems. there are alot of reputable very good breeders out thier who breed for all the right reasons.

as others have said not everyone wants a rescue, lots of people research and want a specific breed, want to know both the parents, know the history and that all health tests have been done. the people looking for this are not going to go to rescue, and there is nothing wrong with that...cant tarnish all breeders with the same brush...its a sorry situation though.

also most reputable breeders keep in contact with the puppies and will take them back if neccessary.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

And while I am on my high horse against the wretched puppy farmers - for all those that feel so strongly about breeding - have you signed this petition yet? time is running out - it'll take about two minutes of your time and - guess what - might actually make a difference which means in time, it WILL alleviate the pressure on Rescues .

https://www.assemblywales.org/getho...atories.htm?pet_id=624&showfrm=1#SignPetition


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I have signed!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Really?
> 
> That is odd because when I get the Breed Supplements with all the hip scores, eye testing etc done, there are cross breeds in there with their health tests including hip, elbow, eyes etc and everyone knows how they are bred and who is behind them.
> 
> How strange...........


Would be interested if you could scan a copy to post, as I understand it, the KC only holds information for pedigrees, so the parents, if they are pedigree, can have information held against them, but a cross breed can't. Of course that doesn't mean a cross breed can't be tested, as far as I'm aware, they can just as much as any other dog, but I've learnt something new if the KC have a database that allows for health tests of cross breeds to be registered.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I shall endeavour to test my computer and scanning literacy!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I shall endeavour to test my computer and scanning literacy!


Why thank you in advance 

I'm a slight illeterate when it comes to the BRS, but as I understand it, this is a record of litters registered, and accollades registered?? Is that right?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why thank you in advance
> 
> I'm a slight illeterate when it comes to the BRS, but as I understand it, this is a record of litters registered, and accollades registered?? Is that right?


The BRS is all things to all men

It's usually divided into the different dog groups - so for example, I get the Gundog edition


It lists all litters registered - 
Dogs that have transferred ownership, 
Dogs who've had their names changed (usually kennel name added)
Health test results - BVA ones are listed automatically - as are the PRA and CNM tests - others such as the ECVO and AHT eye tests are voluntary submission
Stud book numbers awarded

I'm not sure how anyone could 'know' the dogs behind pedigree litters registered unless they know ALL the dogs and / or have a comprehensive database (as I do) - but then - even mine is not THAT comprehensive - there will always be dogs in there I don't have details of.

Litters registered don't include the health test results of the parents - they include the number of litters the bitch has had (and pups - so for example 2/10 - i.e. 2 litters, 10 pups), the bitch's date of birth and the date she had her last litter - and it's listed in owner / breeder surname order.

===================

There is also a section for Activity Register dogs listing new registrations and health results by dog's name - it doesn't identify 'what breed' the dog is.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Angels_Sin said:


> As for people who wouldn't want a rescue/mut/cross etc - well then unless they have a damn good reason they're just snobs who shouldn't have a dog in the first place. You cant claim to be a dog lover but only want one if its a certain breed, looks a certain way and isnt a cross.


Just because people want a certain breed does not mean they are snobs and does not mean they cannot love their dogs and take care of them properly. :nono:



Angels_Sin said:


> I'm sick of hearing people make excuses as to why a rescue isn't good enough for them, just as much as I'm sick of rescues who have ridiculously hard tests to pass before allowing someone to take a dog home. I'm sick of people giving up their pups at the drop of a hat and I'm sick of "breeders" who bring these pups into the world out of purely selfish reasons. :mad2:


And I'm sick of people who think that the only solution to the rescue crisis is to stop responsible breeders breeding healthy dogs, thus leaving the public with only the ill-bred ex-puppy farmed dogs that proliferate in rescues. I'm sick of people who think that this can possibly help the future of dogs in this country.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Just because people want a certain breed does not mean they are snobs and does not mean they cannot love their dogs and take care of them properly. :nono:
> 
> And I'm sick of people who think that the only solution to the rescue crisis is to stop responsible breeders breeding healthy dogs, thus leaving the public with only the ill-bred ex-puppy farmed dogs that proliferate in rescues. I'm sick of people who think that this can possibly help the future of dogs in this country.


Well said - I did try 'repping you' - but apparently I have to "put it about a bit" first 

Playing devils advocate - If anyone who wants a pedigree is not a true dog lover - what does that make people who want a specific cross of two breeds? 

I love all dogs, I worked with all breeds for many years through my work in a local boarding kennels - I never set out to own a Lab - two years of trawling rescues however forced our hand towards getting a pup because of my daughter's nervousness around older dogs.

We ended up with a Lab and the rest as they say is history - I love their versaility, their biddability, their ridiculously easy going attitude to life and how they embrace every little thing in life however old it is as if it is new to them - their quirks, their humour - it doesn't mean I don't love other dogs or that I am a breed snob.

EVERY breed has different characteristics and inherent features - just because someone does their research and feels they prefer the potential characteristics of a breed with which they are planning to spend the next 8 to 18 years with as a new member of their family doesn't make them a breed snob or a 'non-dog lover' - it makes them a sensible person who has done their research to find the breed that is most likely to suit their lifestyle and their family situation - it's these types of owners who are far less likely to give up on their dogs than those who buy on a whim and then 'get rid' on an equally superficial whim


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

OK... well having seen the posts in breeding tonight, I'm finding myself more on Welshyorkielover's side.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I can tell you why I wouldn't breed. I think my girl is the most wonderful border collie girl on the planet and any dog I bred her to would have to be the most wonderful collie boy on the planet. Any pups she had would be just as good as she is, of course. If she had 8 puppies, I'd have to find 8 owners that are as good as me. An impossible task, so I'd have to keep them all. As I don't really want 9 border collies, one is enough at the moment, it's probably best I don't breed her. 

I take my hat off to the decent, responsible breeders who take responsibility for every pup they breed. :thumbup:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I can tell you why I wouldn't breed. I think my girl is the most wonderful border collie girl on the planet and any dog I bred her to would have to be the most wonderful collie boy on the planet. Any pups she had would be just as good as she is, of course. If she had 8 puppies, I'd have to find 8 owners that are as good as me. An impossible task, so I'd have to keep them all. As I don't really want 9 border collies, one is enough at the moment, it's probably best I don't breed her.


Believe me it is easier and cheaper to buy a pup in - and I do do this too. This is the reason why I only breed if the bitch is exceptional. I love them all and think they are all the best in my eyes, but I have to stand back and look at them objectively when making the decision to breed or not.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Absolutely rocco. I do think though that responsible, decent breeders who do take responsibility for their pups and plan them carefully should be supported and encouraged. They are in many, many ways entirely separate from the puppy mill/BYB trades that flood the rescues with ill-conceived puppies bred for money. 

Without good breeders, we would only have bad puppies and that would not be a good thing. 

My opinion may be controversial, unpopular and maybe even entirely wrong, but I do feel that in some ways those who adopt from rescue centres are, to some degree supporting our throw away society. 'it's okay, if it's no good we can dump it, someone will take it.' As for rescues re-homing ex breeding dogs from puppy mills. I despair and it makes me very, very sad. 

What we need is the law upholding. These dreadful, neglectful, abusive farms closing. Instead, they are licenced. I want nothing to do with them and I do sign the petitions, but it does feel like walking through treacle.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> No it isn't. Some breeds hardly ever appear in rescue. Not everyone wants a Staffy or Staffy cross. If you want a dog for a particular working purpose, it can be very difficult to find one in rescue. If you have a job, or small kids, the rescue often wouldn't let you have the dog anyway.


There are hundreds of different pedigree breeds in rescue!! I am obsessed with Yorkies and cant have dogs that shed as family members are very allergic to them so a Yorkie is perfect for me!! Yorkies sell for up to £600 but guess what there's hundreds of them in rescues looking for homes. Even the designer tea cup Yorkies are in shelters!! There are so many pedigrees in pounds so that excuse that not everyone wants a mutt/cross/mongrel doesn't hold up! You don't have to get a cross just because you rescue. You can have your perfect dog/perfect breed from a rescue!!


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Elles said:


> My opinion may be controversial, unpopular and maybe even entirely wrong, but I do feel that in some ways those who adopt from rescue centres are, to some degree supporting our throw away society. 'it's okay, if it's no good we can dump it, someone will take it.' As for rescues re-homing ex breeding dogs from puppy mills. I despair and it makes me very, very sad.


Never heard anything so stupid in all my life!! Yeah lets teach people who able to throw away their pets so easily by NOT adopting them!! Cos that will teach them!!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> You can have your perfect dog/perfect breed from a rescue!!


But with no guarantee they aren't a brother/sister mating from a puppy mill. 

I feel we need stronger campaigns against the puppy mills tbh. I also feel that some kind of permanent id would be very helpful. Microchips, or tattoos perhaps. There will never be any guarantees unless every pup is dna tested, currently a logistic impossibility, but closing puppy mills and banning the factory farming of dogs would be step in the right direction imo.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Never heard anything so stupid in all my life!!


Like I said, unpopular opinion. 

Make people who breed or buy pups responsible for them, by identification and maybe the doggie equivalent of the csa and let's see how many people change their mind about buying that doggie in the window?


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Never heard anything so stupid in all my life!! Yeah lets teach people who able to throw away their pets so easily by NOT adopting them!! Cos that will teach them!!


maybe not my place to say, but that was a bit rude :confused1:
i dont agree with that opinion either, but no opinion is stupid we are all intitled to have our own thought on different matters.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Elles said:


> My opinion may be controversial, unpopular and maybe even entirely wrong, but I do feel that in some ways those who adopt from rescue centres are, to some degree supporting our throw away society. 'it's okay, if it's no good we can dump it, someone will take it.' As for rescues re-homing ex breeding dogs from puppy mills. I despair and it makes me very, very sad. (


Afraid I was earlier thinking along similar lines, its a vicious circle maybe rescues encourage people to thinking its fine to not bother with a dog anymore because there is someone out there to sort it out/don't need to feel guilty


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Afraid I was earlier thinking along similar lines, its a vicious circle maybe rescues encourage people to thinking its fine to not bother with a dog anymore because there is someone out there to sort it out/don't need to feel guilty


I think this has really hit the nail on the head for many and possibly a raw nerve or two for others.

I know for a fact that there really are people out there who think - oh - I'll just dump it on rescue - and often - just weeks later go and get themselves a new pup - and so the cycle continues for these poor dogs, who through no fault of their own - but by fault of the idiots that breed them and the ones that buy them -

The last collie cross I brought back from London to South Wales - my heart ached for him from the moment I saw him - the dog had been passed from pillar to post for all of his short life - hard done by by both people and the dogs some of his families had owned 

There are also good people out there who make a 'mistake' - it feels very wrong to call it a mistake once the dog is a much loved member of their family - and they stand by these dogs through thick and thin (and believe me when I say there has been more 'thin' for many from seemingly insurmountable behavioural issues to major, intrusive and frequent expensive surgery, to exceptionally premature and heartbreaking death  )

But what the good people do invariably glean from these experiences is a wealth of knowledge that many of us can only ever imagine, which makes them, and frequently their friends and family the biggest advocates of why people should buy puppies responsibly.

Sadly, we do live in a very materialistic society - and you've only got to look at some of the posts this site and others like it to recognise that some people simply haven't got a clue when they buy a puppy - from not knowing how to 'do it' properly - to complaining that their pup is biting, not sleeping through the night to being at a loss to understand why their pup is STILL peeing and pooing in the house at 9 / 10 weeks old 

=====================================

Sadly, I have to agree that whilst the blame doesn't lay at the door of people who take rescue dogs, and I can understand why people do, for many it can provide unconditional love and immense satisfaction in a way that little else could possibly even begin to emulate; but I agree from the other side, there are those that do see rescues and these people as a safety net, whether they recognise it or not


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

I'm afraid to say I also agree with Elles. My neighbour has a Springer Spaniel bitch; 6 months old, who she bought on a whim from a sign on the side of the road. She paid aroundabouts £250 for her and she was the last puppy remaining. The dam was also not seen.

Now my neighbour is realising what a Springer Spaniel actually is, and how much work she'll need to put into her, and the fact the pup isn't housetrained etc, she wants to "get rid". She knows that I am involved with rescue and she has asked me if I could take the dog, or ask the rescue to take her.

I warned my neighbour that the rescue might not be able to take her, as their books are full. Her response was, "oh great, what's the point of them then". She then said that she could just "drop her off at the RSPCA anyway."

Now of course, if this pup needs me, I'll foster her or take her to another foster within the rescue. But this just sums the whole wretched thing up; crap breeder, crap owner, rescue picks up the pieces, the pup is rehomed. There is *nothing* here that will end this vicious cycle. The crap breeder will keep breeding, cos it's £250 in their back pocket; the crap owner will buy a puppy, cos they're cute, the rescue will take the dog cos that's what they're there for, and there are (thankfully) people who will rehome this dog.

Now, what I'm about to say is *by no means* what I want to see happening in any situation. The very thought of it sickens me, but do you know what I believe is the only thing that will stop my neighbour or any other no hope owner from buying another pup is? Having to personally take the unwanted dog down to the vets and have it pts. This experience alone would be enough to put an end to her irresponsible, disgraceful attitude to dog ownership. She would NOT be buying another puppy after this.

Again, I AM NOT saying that this is what I believe should happen, in any way, shape or form. But as it stands, at the moment, I believe it is the only thing that would stop the cycle of crap breeders, crap owners, rescues picking up the pieces etc. Of course, what we need instead is education, puppy farms banned and the perpetrators 'dealt with' .

What I predict will happen with my neighbour is she will give her pup over to me, and I will happily foster her and find her a good home; and by next year, she will have gone out, seen another sign on the road and brought another cute puppy. Maybe a JRT or Patterdale "they need less exercise cos they're small", she'll then get fed up and give it up. You may think I'm being uneccesarily harsh - I'm not, she's done this exact thing 3 times already.

Just to reiterate my point, I am not saying that rescues are in any way wrong for what they do, but this situation with my neighbour, I feel, is a perfect example of what rescues end up doing; picking up the pieces whilst these 'breeders' churn out puppy after puppy, pocketing the cash and laughing to themselves. These breeders don't give a flying f*ck what happens to that pup once it's left their care, they know it could end up in rescue. They are indirectly supplying the rescues with dogs and it's got to stop, there has to be a break along the chain of events that takes a pup from a crap breeder to a rescue, I just don't know where that is. And I for one would not like to be the rescuer who doesn't take a dog in need.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Just because people want a certain breed does not mean they are snobs and does not mean they cannot love their dogs and take care of them properly. :nono:
> 
> And I'm sick of people who think that the only solution to the rescue crisis is to stop responsible breeders breeding healthy dogs, thus leaving the public with only the ill-bred ex-puppy farmed dogs that proliferate in rescues. I'm sick of people who think that this can possibly help the future of dogs in this country.


Why dont you read my post properly before replying? Where did I say anything about stopping responsible breeders? I didn't. And where did I say people who wan't a certain breed don't love their dogs? Don't try and twist my words please.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> There are hundreds of different pedigree breeds in rescue!! I am obsessed with Yorkies and cant have dogs that shed as family members are very allergic to them so a Yorkie is perfect for me!! Yorkies sell for up to £600 but guess what there's hundreds of them in rescues looking for homes. Even the designer tea cup Yorkies are in shelters!! There are so many pedigrees in pounds so that excuse that not everyone wants a mutt/cross/mongrel doesn't hold up! You don't have to get a cross just because you rescue. You can have your perfect dog/perfect breed from a rescue!!


Okay - find me a rottie good enough for Show, a bitch that I can also breed from, with KC Reg etc please?? 

Sorry, but I DO NOT want to get a Rottie from Rescue at this moment in time - its not what I want to do. We adore showing as a family so own show potential/quality dogs - if thatm akes me a snob in some people eyes, then so be it - I couldnt give a flying wotnot TBH!!

I donate money from every litter and at other times to Rotts In Need, I will Homecheck for them, I buy stuff from them to help, I direct people to them if they approach me about wanting a rescue rottie.

I do know of several show breeders/exhibitors who, once they 'retire' from actively breeding and showing themselves, they decide now is the time to really to something to 'put something back' for the breed and they actively support Breed Rescues and take on dogs themselves - all very admirable and something we plan to do in the future.

I have to remember, that I may get ANY dog of my own breeding back at ANY time in the future - which I have done in the past and will do so again, without hesistation - I re-home these dogs myself, without any strain on ANY Rescue.

Its called

freedom of

choice!!!!!!!!!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> There are hundreds of different pedigree breeds in rescue!! I am obsessed with Yorkies and cant have dogs that shed as family members are very allergic to them so a Yorkie is perfect for me!! Yorkies sell for up to £600 but guess what there's hundreds of them in rescues looking for homes. Even the designer tea cup Yorkies are in shelters!! There are so many pedigrees in pounds so that excuse that not everyone wants a mutt/cross/mongrel doesn't hold up! You don't have to get a cross just because you rescue. You can have your perfect dog/perfect breed from a rescue!!


can you???? perfect lmao.............tell me how many rough collies do you see in rescue ??? none because we are a tight knot community if there was one we all rally round to do what we can to get it out of rescue and rehomed asap.I'm not a snob its the breed i love. the breed i vet homes for donate gifts for the RC rescue stall!!!!
Firstly there's no such thing as a tea cup of any breed , and tbo how many of the yorkies in rescue actually look like the breed standard yorkie?? very few if any because they're churned out by byb's who have no idea of health test or breed standards.

Sorry you can't force anyone to take a mutt from rescue its called FREEDOM of choice.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

yes thankfully not many shelties in rescue either - because they're 'difficult' to breed they haven't been taken on by the puppy farmers. Occasionally they end up in rescue - the last I heard was because the owner (who'd signed a contract to return the dog to the breeder) was taken ill and her family put the dog into rescue immediately and the 'rescue' wouldn't let the breeder take her from them. This situation doesn't help at all!


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> Sorry you can't force anyone to take a mutt from rescue its called FREEDOM of choice.


Not all dogs in rescue are 'mutts' or second class dogs. I know thats probably not what you meant . We often get people implying our general rescue dogs are second class in some way to dogs with better pedigrees etc. Yes if you were to buy a dog (as I would do my self if I did) I would want to be sure of temprament and health tests; but many people who are taking a rescue dog at that time are doing so for different reasons and recognise that you can't get that guarantee with rescue but want to help a dog in need. What we need to do is educate that huge section of the dog buying public in between that buys a dog but isn't bothered about health and temprament and encouraging bad breeding practices.

At the moment would say can't really rememember the last time we had a good old fashioned hienz 57 in from the pound; its always staffies & crosses, rotties, mastiffs x crosses, shepherds, labs, lurchers/greyhounds, jack russells, patterdales and huskies... and collies

Must back up what people are saying really - that theres much less genuine crossbreeds about as a result of perhaps 'genuinely accidental' litters and much more breeding of pedigree dogs about for people looking to make ££££


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

EmCHammer said:


> Not all dogs in rescue are 'mutts' or second class dogs. I know thats probably not what you meant . We often get people implying our general rescue dogs are second class in some way to dogs with better pedigrees etc.
> 
> Must back up what people are saying really - that theres much less genuine crossbreeds about as a result of perhaps 'genuinely accidental' litters and much more breeding of pedigree dogs about for people looking to make ££££[
> 
> ...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> What we need to do is educate that huge section of the dog buying public in between that buys a dog but isn't bothered about health and temprament and encouraging bad breeding practices.


I agree that education is important, but the fact is that some people don't care anyway. Bearcub's post and experience with her neighbour is spot on. I've come across it myself. And how many just want to breed for the sake of it - to 'experience' it? Puppy farms churn out huge numbers of these puppies, but byb and pet breeders (of a certain kind) are also responsible for huge numbers.

We live in a throw away society, one that puts 'rights' before responsibility - it's little wonder we are in this mess.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

PennyGC said:


> yes thankfully not many shelties in rescue either - because they're 'difficult' to breed they haven't been taken on by the puppy farmers. Occasionally they end up in rescue - the last I heard was because the owner (who'd signed a contract to return the dog to the breeder) was taken ill and her family put the dog into rescue immediately and the 'rescue' wouldn't let the breeder take her from them. This situation doesn't help at all!


no it doesn't sadly, breed rescues have homes lined up, but we've found rescues are very reluctant to release them to us?


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I agree that education is important, but the fact is that some people don't care anyway. Bearcub's post and experience with her neighbour is spot on. I've come across it myself. And how many just want to breed for the sake of it - to 'experience' it? Puppy farms churn out huge numbers of these puppies, but byb and pet breeders (of a certain kind) are also responsible for huge numbers.
> 
> We live in a throw away society, one that puts 'rights' before responsibility - it's little wonder we are in this mess.


And with a 'recession' on I bet even more people are thinkging 'ooh, lets have a litter and make a bit money to see us through.' :mad2::mad2:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> no it doesn't sadly, breed rescues have homes lined up, but we've found rescues are very reluctant to release them to us?


Yes, this is a problem - I've also know breeders who have found out their pups are in rescue and rescues refusing to allow the breeder to rehome them.

As in any other part of society, rescue is made up of a mixture of people and egos. While most do a brilliant job, they are not perfect.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Yes, this is a problem - I've also know breeders who have found out their pups are in rescue and rescues refusing to allow the breeder to rehome them.
> 
> As in any other part of society, rescue is made up of a mixture of people and egos. While most do a brilliant job, they are not perfect.


R......do you now why they won't release them to breed rescue ? If they did it would free up space for another dog surely?


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

We work with some lovely breed rescues but sadly we have had some bad experiences too... Breed rescues being picky not wanting totake a dog not in good health, not wanting a dog who turned out not to be pure, not neutering before rehoming, wanting to place straight into a home without having met or assessed the dog ina pound etc. 

We have also HD name calling from breed rescues or their forummembers and snobbery

so there is good and bad in all avenues of rescue


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i fail to see when a breed rescue have vetted homes lined up and are willing to take the dog off they aren't allowed to. 

snobbery ??????


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

dexter said:


> R......do you now why they won't release them to breed rescue ? If they did it would free up space for another dog surely?


Who knows? they wont let breeders or breed rescue take them on so that the rescue organisation can help another dog :mad2::mad2: in the same way perhaps that some rescue won't let people with


a dog bought from a reputable breeder
an 'entire' dog, even though the rescued dog is neutered
more than a couple of dogs already (so lot of agility people)

The reasons behind these are unknown, but unfortunately a number of rescue organisations have these 'rules'


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't want to go into a breed vs all breed debate there is good and bad in all

what if the breed rescue doesn't neuter?
What if they want to take a dog from the pound and place it unassessed strIght into a home without knowing itssuitability to live with dogs or kids and charge a couple of hundred quid
what if they only cherry pick young healthy dogs and won't take anyneeding an op etc

there are very good breed rescues out there of course... We havecertainstandards and would expect anyrescuewe work with to do the same


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## Barkie (Aug 22, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> You don't have to get a cross just because you rescue. You can have your perfect dog/perfect breed from a rescue!!


Are there any rescue centres that do the specific health and DNA tests for the known testable inherited conditions in a breed?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

EmCHammer said:


> what if the breed rescue doesn't neuter?


are there any that don't???


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Elles said:


> My opinion may be controversial, unpopular and maybe even entirely wrong, but I do feel that in some ways those who adopt from rescue centres are, to some degree supporting our throw away society. 'it's okay, if it's no good we can dump it, someone will take it.'
> 
> (





WelshYorkieLover said:


> Never heard anything so stupid in all my life!! Yeah lets teach people who able to throw away their pets so easily by NOT adopting them!! Cos that will teach them!!


Actually, I can see where Elles is coming from here. I would like to bet that there are many people who have dumped dogs in rescue centres and have salved their consciences by telling themselves "oh, they'll soon find a nice new home". 

ETA - I've done it again - posted before I read the rest of the replies who agreed with the above! Sorry to all those who hgave already posted along these lines.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

Barkie said:


> Are there any rescue centres that do the specific health and DNA tests for the known testable inherited conditions in a breed?


The question is why would they? They're expensive and they're not expecting people who take their dogs to breed! They expect people to take on a dog and look after it whatever! I took my first border collie from a rescue as a pup - he wasn't eye tested for CEA but I knew this and I knew he might have it - fortunately he didn't. He could have had something else, but I wanted him regardless and wasn't disappointed.


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## Barkie (Aug 22, 2011)

PennyGC said:


> The question is why would they? They're expensive and they're not expecting people who take their dogs to breed! They expect people to take on a dog and look after it whatever! I took my first border collie from a rescue as a pup - he wasn't eye tested for CEA but I knew this and I knew he might have it - fortunately he didn't. He could have had something else, but I wanted him regardless and wasn't disappointed.


We have this in common, we have both taken on rescue dogs for their life come what may. It was a risk we took and we were lucky. Some people don't want to gamble on being lucky though. Would it be fifth time lucky for me this time? Or is it sensible to minimise the risk because I can?

My answer to the original question "Why Breed" is so that people who want to, or just feel that it minimises some of the risks, can buy as healthy a puppy as possible from a breeder who has selected healthy dogs as the parents of a litter. There are buyers of dogs with tested parents who maybe have no interest in breeding at all, they want to have a healthy dog to share their life and lifestyle for as long as their dog is physically able.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

EmCHammer said:


> what if the breed rescue doesn't neuter?
> What if they want to take a dog from the pound and place it unassessed strIght into a home without knowing itssuitability to live with dogs or kids and charge a couple of hundred quid
> what if they only cherry pick young healthy dogs and won't take anyneeding an op etc


As someone who occasionally breeds (our most recent litter is now 2 yrs old and we have a large waiting list for our next litter) and who founded what has become the biggest and busiest Welfare organisation in our breed, I do feel I should participate in this debate.

Regarding the questions posed above, I believe that any rescue worthy of the name should automatically neuter before rehoming (except in certain circumstances - too young, too old, too ill). 
Similarly, any rescue should fully assess dogs before rehoming, That is why we insist that all dogs rehomed through our organisation are assessed for a minimum of two weeks by their fosterer (this is in addition to an assessment in their old home before we agree to take them on).
Old dogs aren't a problem for us, but we do have to ask serious questions if we are asked to take on a dog with a serious or longstanding illness. Like most breed rescues, our financial assets are pretty much non-existent and we basically manage on a hand-to-mouth basis. When faced with the possibility of taking in a dog whose cost of ongoing medication on a monthly basis could help us neuter and rehome 2 or 3 other dogs, we really have to think hard about it. It's not ideal, but the reality is we have no choice.

On the bigger question as posed by the OP, I think we need to distinguish very clearly between good, ethical, responsible breeders who produce healthy, high quality puppies which are excellent examples of their breed, and the others - the puppy farmers, backyard breeders and the naive/greedy/stupid "pet" breeders. In 5 years, our rescue has taken in and rehomed over 500 unwanted Siberian Huskies - of these, only 3 were bred by people that we, as an organisation, would regard as "good" breeders. As soon as these breeders knew we had their dogs, they arranged to collect them and rehomed them privately or, in one case, gave it a home themselves.
So it is clear that in our breed, at least, good breeders do not in any way contribute to the horrific rescue crisis we are facing. Stopping the good breeders breeding quality pups would simply ensure that within a very short period of time, the breed would go downhill very fast indeed. Already within the poorly bred dogs that make up the vast majority of those who come into rescue we are seeing health and temperament problems which were formerly very rare in the breed - primarily because none of them are from health-tested parents.

Maybe it is specific to our breed, but we don't seem to see the people who only want either a puppy or a rescue. Most of the people we rehome to have both, like us. Amongst our pack we have two rescue dogs - one a former puppy farm breeding bitch, and the other a classic "pet" bred girl who came to us starving, with pneumonia and pregnant. Over the past five years we have also fostered and assessed well over 150 unwanted Siberians in our home.

mick


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

An excellent post Mick - yours sadly is a breed that has been targeted by morons who either breed or buy this highly specialised breed without first engaging their brains or troubling themselves with any sense of responsibility - it's truly heart breaking to see - and terrifying too -it's just pure chance that it's your breed and not mine ...or anyone else's :frown:


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## dimah (Jul 13, 2011)

Since it seems difficult/near impossible to stop the "byb"...

What about a dog license for the OWNER? Every owner recorded in the history of every dog's microchip goes on a database... Make it compulsory for EVERY dog to have a chip.

Irresponsible owners can be traced. They can't dump their dog without being found out. If a dog is taken to the vet without a chip - make it so the vet HAS to chip any dog that isn't found to have one already!

Guilty/irresponsible owners (like the aforementioned lady who buys pups from sign by the road) should be more reluctant to buy dodgy pups.

This should lead to less demand for "easy" to get & cheaper puppies;
Which should lead to less dodgy people breeding for £££ because of the increased hassle and DEcreased profit in it for them;
More demand for healthy well-bred pups;
Less pressure on pounds & rescues..?

Of course it would cost an owner more, too. I would gladly pay a license fee to own my dog if it meant shutting down puppy farms and weeding out the half-arsed owners and preventing the uncountable amount of dogs being PTS in pounds.

Just my frustrated thoughts. I feel this thread is getting quite heated, but at the end of the day *I think that ALL the people posting here agree they want to put an end to the amount of dogs that live a horrible life with bad health or just end up spending most of it in a rescue.*

On another note, today my Dad told me a perfect example of the kind of irresponsible owner that's being talked about -- lovely lady, bought a "pedigree" (not sure if its KC registered or not) labrador as a puppy, it's now 8mnths old. Her husband works full time, she's now working full time. What happens to the puppy? It's shut in a room all day! The lady can't understand why her pup is chewing her furniture to bits?!


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

It's the breeders who breed in their own bubble who are a reason for the problem. They don't check to see how many puppies are being bred, having a network of breeders to ask about the situation allows you to decide if you should hold off .


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Cay said:


> It's the breeders who breed in their own bubble who are a reason for the problem. They don't check to see how many puppies are being bred, having a network of breeders to ask about the situation allows you to decide if you should hold off .


Networks are not always a good thing. We are currently fostering an abused bitch who was used as a puppy machine by three successive "bulk producers" in our breed. She had a couple of litters with each and was then passed on to the next. They weren't concerned about her welfare, just how much money they could make from her. That's one "network of breeders" we could do without!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

purple_x said:


> Couldn't have put it better myself.
> 
> I know people breed for better temprement and health but why keep breeding atm when rescue dogs are pts daily because there are just not enough homes for them.
> I just dont understand it
> All the cute little puppies go straight off to new homes while rescue dogs never get a chance, it upsets me alot.


I do get a little sick of people trying to make me and others feel guilty for wanting a puppy, for wanting a particular breed for a particular reason, and for wanting to raise that dog my way, not take on someone else's mistakes.

Whilst I think that to rescue a dog is a wonderful thing to do, not everyone is in the position to have a rescued dog and not everyone has been able to persuade a rescue centre that they have a good home waiting.

That is something else that people tend to forget when they spout on about "you shouldn't buy a puppy when there are dogs in rescue". Do you realise just how many posts on this forum alone are from people who have tried several rescue centres and told they were not good enough. They may work full time, but have already arranged day care and walking for the dog, but they still are not good enough.

I believe a lot of the dogs pts in pounds could be saved if the rescue centres themselves weren't so damned fussy. I am not suggesting they pass the dogs on to just anybody, but sometimes their requirements are extreme and the people would have more hope of adopting a baby.

To all of you who have rescued dogs, well done! I admire you. But do remember that circumstances are not always right to go down this route. I have rescued six cats, does that count?


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I do get a little sick of people trying to make me and others feel guilty for wanting a puppy, for wanting a particular breed for a particular reason, and for wanting to raise that dog my way, not take on someone else's mistakes.
> 
> Whilst I think that to rescue a dog is a wonderful thing to do, not everyone is in the position to have a rescued dog and not everyone has been able to persuade a rescue centre that they have a good home waiting.
> 
> ...


Er yes, most rescue organisations wouldn't let me have a rescue dog anymore! I do know people who'd love me to have one of theirs but plenty wouldn't - why?

Because I have lots of dogs, I have 'entire' dogs (my rescue dogs have all been neutered, but I wouldn't have one that had been neutered 'early') and I breed dogs.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

And there's another side to rescue too. Not through the official rescues, but how many dogs are rehomed on the freeads time after time after time. 
Is that acceptable, each one of those owners who supposedly 'rescued' ad dog ended up rehoming it. 

The problems is not breeding - it is owners. Owners who do not take responsiblity for their pets and the irresonsiable breeders that supply them.


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

I understand what you mean by rescue centres. we looked at that first before buying a brand new puppy but somewhere between living in a city, not having a huge garden, partner was still a student at the time, me never having a dog before... we didnt stand a chance at getting a larger breed (german shepherd) which my partner was at least familiar with and i had always wanted.

despite a few money problems in the past (never affecting my girl) she is a happy loving and well loved dog who has everything -and some might say too much - she could ever want, is well trained, alert, happy and may only have a smallish city garden to roam about but as we spend most of the day wondering back and forth to the huge common couldn't want for more, well she'd never say no to a few more biscuits!


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

raindog said:


> Networks are not always a good thing. We are currently fostering an abused bitch who was used as a puppy machine by three successive "bulk producers" in our breed. She had a couple of litters with each and was then passed on to the next. They weren't concerned about her welfare, just how much money they could make from her. That's one "network of breeders" we could do without!


They network and breed anyway which is purely selfish .


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I think what it comes back to is some people just don't care be they irresponsible owners or breeders.

Most people on here be they from rescue back grounds or responsible breeders think the same about the big pictures even though we may have different opinions on the rescue vs brought dog.

My opnion still stands just wish werever people get a dog from they do it having done the right research into what is right for them and the dog they get.

I often think that todays private rehome dog could be tomorrows rescue dog if they don't get a home.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

EmCHammer said:


> I often think that todays private rehome dog could be tomorrows rescue dog if they don't get a home.


More often than not, they are bought on a whim and rehomed on a whim, and then bought by someone else on a whim, and so the cycle tends to continue until eventually, they end up in rescue 

By this time, they've been passed from pillar to post and come with many of the issues that some dogs develop through lack of training and lack of continuity in their lives 

Most dogs have an amazing capacity for adapting - but many of these dogs don't stand a chance by the very nature of their owners 

You do sometimes get a dog get lucky to find their forever homes through the free-ads, but I would bet that the majority of people buy on the same whim the original owners did - and yes, a few homes down the line, rescue becomes the eventual destination - by which time, the dogs may have developed many issues and insecuries by the very nature of their lives to date


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

There are many reason for breeding, from ethical ones to less than ethical ones - and there is a wide range of breeders breeding..

Most breeders that you will see and hear of are the wrong type of breeders, breeding for the wrong reasons and as such the general public form their opinions on these types of breeders and class all/most the same! - Hence the need to high light the good within the dog world, for the ethical breeders.

Breeders are an issue for rescues, but whats more of an issue is the owners that end up with the dogs. - Thats both the fault of the breeder and owner, and even the lack of educating from others.
- Ethical breeders can and do add to the rescue problem although the difference if they will do anything in their power to stop such - although no amount of vetting, endorsments and like wise will ensure good homes remain for the pups through out their lives and breeders are foolish to assume, there is after all only so much they can do ... - we have to give them credit where credit is due, but also have to understand that these breeders are doing their up most, are not god but only human like the rest of us!
(although decent breeders dogs may end up in rescue it is not on a large scale) - Ethical breeders will take their home bred dogs back if their informed about them turning up in rescue, and to be honest as someone that works with breed rescue I would only be to happy to help a breeder be reunited with a dog they bred, dumped by their owners...You see we all within a breed need to look out for one and other, alot of owners wont contact breeders through spite, fear or simply because they cant be bothered. That is unfair, folk then go on to judge the breeder - but in this situation what can the breeder do, if their not aware? Little or nothing..

Rescues will always be over crowded and that I (personally!) blame mostly on the general public, if it wasnt for the lack of education, these people wouldnt create a demand for the unethical breeders, who because their IS a market continue to breed on a large scale. 
Its been proven (from what I have read here and else where) - that when someone becomes aware of the unethical goings on of a breeder, or within the dog world altogether they have already brought the pup - and then are left feeling bad, although alot go on to make the same mistake again!

I am fed up of reading that anyone buying from a breeder is taking away a home for a dog in rescue what complete poop, if I believed that was ever true I wouldnt support, or even help folk looking to buy a pup when we have X amount of fosters in our care ourselves.

Rescues can never give some owners what they want, and breeders can never give some owners what they want - its a personal choice, and someone that goes to a rescue is NO better than someone that goes to a breeder - we all have the right to choose where our puppies come from - and as long as we selected a good breeder, who is anyone to judge?

- Dogs DONT die in rescue because someone buys from a decent breeder - They die because someone parted with cash to a selfish, heartless breeder and then couldnt careless about the dog, dumping it.. 

Dont blame the good breeders for the mistake of owners who support the bad - That is is a cheek and is totally disrespectful to them that spend time, effort, love and money on their dogs!

& please lets not forget that MANY of these ethical breeders do a damn sight more where rescue is concerned than those who are disgusted that any type of breeder is breeding...


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Excellent post DD - I know I've said it before - but will say it again - your wisdom and insight belies your years


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Excellent post DD - I know I've said it before - but will say it again - your wisdom and insight belies your years


I would second that Swarthy, lol!

I can imagine DD making quite a stir on this committee - PMSL!!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I've not read all the replies to this thread yet, but this is my 2penn'orth:

Given my current situation, I personally wouldn't buy a puppy (no disrespect to the breeders on this forum). If I was that desperate for a puppy, frankly, I'd wait until January/February and visit the rescues/pounds, etc.  The main reason for this is because of the cost of an 8 week old puppy, compared to a donation for a rescue dog which might not be that much older.

In answer to the argument that rescues often have strict and exclusive criteria: Both of my dogs are ex-poundies. I got them for £40 and no questions asked. I'm not saying I agree with this principle, and in fact, I'd rather try the rescues first, nor would I recommend a pound dog as a potential pet for a family with young kids, as I know it could go horribly wrong, but I have 2 great dogs that I love to death and wouldn't swap for the world (please someone remind me of that next time Milly chews something she shouldn't, or Max barks loudly at her because I've opened the door to let her out of her crate  ).

Having said that, I agree it's not the ethical breeders that are causing the rehoming crises. I remember reading Ceearott's thread about Vegas's first owners and the subsequent trip to the house in question to collect him, couldn't leave it until I knew the happy outcome and it opened my eyes to lengths an _ethical _breeder would go to for one of their pups.

IIRC someone mentioned a particular rescue who takes in ex-breeding dogs and brings dogs over from Ireland. While I can't for the life of me understand why they bring dogs over from Ireland when we have enough pounds over here that they could help out, the sentimental part of me approves of the rescue taking in and rehoming the ex-breeders. At least the dogs who find their way to that particular rescue (and others like it) have a chance to experience what life _SHOULD _be like with the care and guidence of a loving owner who sees more than just a money-making breed-machine  .

Then there's the argument that not everyone wants crosses, mongrels etc. Well (this has probably been said before), even pedigree dogs are somtimes found in rescues and pounds across the country - and I'm not just talking about bull breeds. There are rescues that specialise in specific breeds.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

Ban the sale of dogs on the online advertising sites, which makes it far too easy for people to buy & sell dogs, stud your dog, breed your dog etc etc. Am convinced, unless anyone convinces me otherwise, that this would make a big difference.

Those with KC reg litters keep the advertising on such sites as Champdogs, Kennel Club and Breed Clubs. And there is always word of mouth.

Those with non KC or crossbreed litters, revert back to printed newspaper adverts and word of mouth.

Just make it that bit harder for everyone. If you are a responsible breeder then banning the sale of dogs on online advertising sites will not make a jot of difference to you ;-)

That said, I would be happy to see bona fida Rescues (so those with charitable status say) being able to continue to use online advertising.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

agnes2003 said:


> Ban the sale of dogs on the online advertising sites, which makes it far too easy for people to buy & sell dogs, stud your dog, breed your dog etc etc. Am convinced, unless anyone convinces me otherwise, that this would make a big difference.
> 
> Those with KC reg litters keep the advertising on such sites as Champdogs, Kennel Club and Breed Clubs. And there is always word of mouth.
> 
> ...


that could work actually. just making things harder usually works well enough to make a difference. People see nothing wrong with buying from online sites, or pet shops because its legal and its so easy. If it was banned, then it would be seen as bad and they would go for the easier options, which would be rescue or reputable breeder.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> Then there's the argument that not everyone wants crosses, mongrels etc. Well (this has probably been said before), even pedigree dogs are somtimes found in rescues and pounds across the country - and I'm not just talking about bull breeds. There are rescues that specialise in specific breeds.


We have far more pedigree (as in purbreed) dogs come in than good old crossbreeds these days.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

agnes2003 said:


> Ban the sale of dogs on the online advertising sites, which makes it far too easy for people to buy & sell dogs, stud your dog, breed your dog etc etc. Am convinced, unless anyone convinces me otherwise, that this would make a big difference.
> 
> Those with KC reg litters keep the advertising on such sites as Champdogs, Kennel Club and Breed Clubs. And there is always word of mouth.
> 
> ...


Sorry - but it wouldn't work - you will be surprised at the highly responsible established breeders who do use these sites from time to time - and their adverts stand out from the crowd.

Arguments such as "you should have a waiting list before breeding" are usually made by people who haven't got a clue, or numerically small breeds where there are no alternative places to go for pups

But when people want a pet pup from a good breeder, often - they may go on a waiting list, find a pup from an equally good breeder elsewhere and 'forget' to tell the breeder. Some outstanding breeders I know refuse to keep waiting lists.

People pull out after MONTHS if not YEARS of waiting for all sorts of reasons.

In addition to the above, nature doesn't always deliver the right balance of dogs / bitches / colours etc and for some breeds, people - again, rightly or wrongly - have their heart set on a gender and / or colour.

When I bought my last pup, I had been looking for 2 years for a yellow bitch - he's yellow yes, but he's a boy  but not everyone has that flexibility when looking - I liked the breeding and the parents and the rest as they say is history.

All these situations lead to an excess of puppies available which need to be found homes - not everyone wants to advertise on Champdogs (in fact - since the revamp - an increasing number of us are seriously considering cancelling our membership when up for renewal) - not everyone wants to advertise on the KC website, and actually - not that many enquiries come through that route.

What WOULD help is if the owners of these online sites reviewed their adverts (which of course they don't because that costs time and time is money) - but even the most established breeder will sometimes have puppies to sell - and rightly or wrongly - some of them use these sites and I know for a fact that that most enquirers would have a hard struggle getting past first base - yet they've found FANTASTIC homes for their dogs

So not everyone who advertises on these sites is bad and not everyone who looks there to buy puppies is bad - touch wood, I've never had to use them - but I would never say never.

Not all breeders want websites, or the work that goes into updating them frequently - some of them don't live and die by their computers and seldom check their emails.

The number of enquiries I get for one of the breeders of two of my dogs is unreal, because they can't find her details anywhere - yet she is one of the most renowned breeders in our breed in both the UK and internationally.



EmCHammer said:


> We have far more pedigree (as in purbreed) dogs come in than good old crossbreeds these days.


and how many are KC registered with fully health tested parents? PF and BYB produce as many (if not more) pedigrees as cross-breeds (often Labradors) and for all the ones I've seen in my time, most of them are very strange looking examples of the breed 

I've seen ONE example of a fantastic specimen of a Labrador coming through rescue after being a street dog - I sadly didn't know his background or breeding - but he was most definitely an exception to the rule and I am sure his breeders would be horrified if they knew what had happened to him


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

"What WOULD help is if the owners of these online sites reviewed their adverts (which of course they don't because that costs time and time is money) - but even the most established breeder will sometimes have puppies to sell - and rightly or wrongly - some of them use these sites and I know for a fact that that most enquirers would have a hard struggle getting past first base - yet they've found FANTASTIC homes for their dogs"

- exactly why a complete ban is the only answer, in that we cannot rely nor ask the owners of such sites to review the adverts.

"So not everyone who advertises on these sites is bad and not everyone who looks there to buy puppies is bad - touch wood, I've never had to use them - but I would never say never."

- never said they were ;-) BUT we all know there are a LOT of people who are. Complaints of sick pets bought from online advertising has risen by 40%, which gives us an idea of just how many unscrupulous breeders who don't care advertise. 

"Not all breeders want websites, or the work that goes into updating them frequently - some of them don't live and die by their computers and seldom check their emails."

- They don't have to have a website. Theoretically there would still be the advertising available on the KC website, Champdogs and Breed Clubs...... and once adverts cease on the free advertising sites and people are educated and redirected, then I should imagine traffic to such sites would increase considerably, and talking of quality, so would the quality of breeders waiting to hear from them. How much harder would it be to advertise on those sites for those less internet savvy that you speak of than place on the freead sites? not at all....


40% of all pets are currently bought of the online freeads. It's a HUGE proportion. I still think banning it would make a BIG difference, in particular to those that just decide to throw caution to the wind/do things on a whim....


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

agnes2003 said:


> They don't have to have a website. Theoretically there would still be the advertising available on the KC website, Champdogs and Breed Clubs...... and once adverts cease on the free advertising sites and people are educated and redirected, then I should imagine traffic to such sites would increase considerably, and talking of quality, so would the quality of breeders waiting to hear from them. How much harder would it be to advertise on those sites for those less internet savvy that you speak of than place on the freead sites? not at all....


Why 'should' they? Traffic to Champdogs is phenomenal - but since the revamp - pretty much across the board - monthly redirections to breeders websites has fallen by THOUSANDS and we have the stats to prove it - no-one is listening - it doesn't matter how many visitors the site gets, people don't like using it  why should anyone pay money for something that simply no-longer works?

I've not had a litter for over two years - but it's never stopped the traffic coming through in the past - since the site redesign however - they don't even figure in the top ten - whereas previously - they were always top 

====================================

A lot of people don't use the KC websites because of sites just like THIS - and programmes such as PDE - the number of people who continue to slag off anything to do with the KC is loud - until that stops - the number of people using their site isn't going to rise (and with this I should add that of the buyers who do come through this route - very few are suitable owners).

Again, unless someone is an ABS member, why should they pay each time they have a litter to use a service that doesn't work - predominantly because of the external perception of the very site you are trying to promote - and even then - if buyers don't do their homework - they can STILL get caught out (and the KC Do vet every ad as I know from my first litter - whereby I advertised the pups are PRA clear by parentage - but because the details weren't on their database - they wouldn't permit it - thankfully, I had the details and the stud dog owners permission to submit the results on their behalf - but their adverts don't directly contain health information.

Most Breed Clubs are run by people who have their own dogs and lives and businesses / jobs - in the more popular breeds keeping an updated list of members who have puppies / stud dogs etc is a full-time job in itself unless the clubs have the capacity to lay out significant amounts of money to invest in high fangled websites that can accept automatic advertising - then the details all still have to be verified by a human before such an advert can be accepted.

Puppy buyer education is KEY - they MUST do their research - but they continue not to - many admitting they 'save pups' when in fact - by 'saving them' they are condemning many many more pups and bitches to a life of misery and potential pain / premature death 

But when a large percentage of people don't like the KC to start with - and a further probably half of those that do use the KC website then get lambasted for doing so on public forums - there are one HELL of a lot of messages to get straight - that show and working breeders are NOT the scurge of the dog breeding world and that the KC remains the only credible institution for anything to do with pedigree dog breeding in the UK - not perfect - but working damned hard both behind and in front of the scenes to make significant changes.

The scurge of the dog breeding world is Puppy Farmers and BYB and for the record - a LOT of these puppy farmers advertise in REGIONAL PRESS on an ongoing basis - many outside their own areas - and "Its a Dogs Life" similarly carries a permanent warning ad in the large majority of regional papers advising people to proceed with caution on these ads, but it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

Blocking internet advertising wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the majority of puppy farmers - as a large number continue to use regional press to sell their pups


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

"Most Breed Clubs are run by people who have their own dogs and lives and businesses / jobs - in the more popular breeds keeping an updated list of members who have puppies / stud dogs etc is a full-time job in itself unless the clubs have the capacity to lay out significant amounts of money to invest in high fangled websites that can accept automatic advertising - then the details all still have to be verified by a human before such an advert can be accepted."

Charge for it 


"Puppy buyer education is KEY - they MUST do their research - but they continue not to .."

Thats why more radical steps are needed, sadly 


"But when a large percentage of people don't like the KC to start with - and a further probably half of those that do use the KC website then get lambasted for doing so on public forums - there are one HELL of a lot of messages to get straight - that show and working breeders are NOT the scurge of the dog breeding world and that the KC remains the only credible institution for anything to do with pedigree dog breeding in the UK - not perfect - but working damned hard both behind and in front of the scenes to make significant changes."

And a large percentage still do like and use the KC. If you dont like the KC, theres always word of mouth and paid paper advertising.


"The scurge of the dog breeding world is Puppy Farmers and BYB and for the record - a LOT of these puppy farmers advertise in REGIONAL PRESS on an ongoing basis - many outside their own areas - and "Its a Dogs Life" similarly carries a permanent warning ad in the large majority of regional papers advising people to proceed with caution on these ads, but it doesn't make a blind bit of difference."

And a LARGE percentage if not ALL advertise online ;-)


"Blocking internet advertising wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the majority of puppy farmers - as a large number continue to use regional press to sell their pups"

I think it would be a pain in the @rse for them not to be able to advertise online in the freeads. And I like that it would  But its not just about Puppy Farmers, as you quite rightly state, its also about BYBs etc, and we all know that they also pretty much ALL advertise on the online freeads. We cannot rely on education alone to get us through this. Its not working. People have all the world, all the information at their fingers tips e.g. the internet, but they still choose not too look, or even ignore what they read. Money talks, sadly.


There is no 100% solution to anything in life and certainly not with regards to the horrendous breeding practices of dogs; and the huge, HUGE numbers of homeless dogs in this country; and not forgetting animal abuse, and ALL of these are on the rise. However there are better solutions and possible practices and even if theyre not 100% Id rather they were implemented. Something is better than nothing ;-)

I still believe that if you are a responsible breeder, and I cannot see any point you make above Swarthy that causes me any concern over this, then banning the freeads online will not affect you. But if anyone else has some good reasons why not, very happy to hear from them


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted by agnes2003
> Ban the sale of dogs on the online advertising sites, which makes it far too easy for people to buy & sell dogs, stud your dog, breed your dog etc etc. Am convinced, unless anyone convinces me otherwise, that this would make a big difference.


As beneficial as that may be I cannot see how that would work. The internet is mainly impossible to control. It is also world wide, so just because something is illegal in one country doesn't mean it is not available elsewhere and the internet doesn't have any international boundaries.

I do agree though that the advent of internet advertising has caused a huge problem. In the past such litters were advertised in the local freeads and only had a local audience. With internet advertising it is possible to reach a much much wider area so making it easier for byb and puppy farmers to sell their pups so increasing the problem.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Puppy buyer education is KEY - they MUST do their research - but they continue not to - many admitting they 'save pups' when in fact - by 'saving them' they are condemning many many more pups and bitches to a life of misery and potential pain / premature death


Longterm, education is the* only* effective way of improving the situation. Legislation, banning sites etc won't really affect anything - and if you don't believe that, ask yourselves how many pitbulls there are in the UK now in comparison with the years prior to the DDA. There are many more now because the legislation has been counterproductive. 
Gradually whittling away at the market aimed at by the puppy farmers, BYBs and naive/greedy/stupid "pet" breeders by ongoing education campaigns is the only thing that has any likelihood of succeeding. If we could, for example, get the RSPCA to use some of its ill-gotten gains to run a huge pro-good-breeding TV publicity campaign it would have an enormous effect.

Mick


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

agnes2003 said:


> I still believe that if you are a responsible breeder, and I cannot see any point you make above Swarthy that causes me any concern over this, then banning the freeads online will not affect you. But if anyone else has some good reasons why not, very happy to hear from them


 excuse me - you don't have 'concerns' over me as a responsible breeder  I find that quite offensive TBH that you should even think that - as it happens, you know NOTHING about me.

I've bred just THREE litters in my life - 4 pups I still own (1 in joint ownership) and many of the others with people who were already friends, or who have become friends since having one of my pups (and 1 from each of my first two litters in one case). Where I've hit stumbling blocks on health test results, I've withdrawn the dog in question from any breeding plans.

I use all the recommended health-tests for my breed and breed only when *I* want a pup - I keep waiting lists for what they are worth (a right royal PITA if I am honest) - and know all too well the panic of these lists going t*ts up when you have a litter of 4 week old pups on your hands - I've been

To be quite frank, I could no longer rely on Champdogs to be able to direct puppy buyers to me - I do have a website and I also run THE MAIN health website for Labrador breeding - the one that is universally linked to from the majority of responsible websites which have anything to do with Labrador breeding - and STILL people ignore the advice and others experiences there - because we live in a nation of "it will never happen to me" 

My point is - I know of bigger and more established breeders than me who do sometimes use these sites and these adverts stand out a mile from the BYB.

I live in the heart of puppy farming land - no mean feat when you have a litter or even walking the dogs on the street when people come onto you asking about a pup and get quite abusive the minute you start talking about what's involved in breeding a litter - so for my two pennence worth - I would start with banning ALL regional newspaper adverts for sales of pups, because I know for a FACT that would make life considerably more difficult for these people.

Wales of course being the home of the puppy farmer, is also one of the key holiday destinations for people staying in the UK - are you going to trawl around Wales and remove every roadside sign for pups - because believe me -there are HUNDREDS of the damn things - and I know more than a few PF and BYB Do sell their pups this way 

==========================================

If you stop these Free ad websites - what's to stop people using Google Adwords - or Yahoo - or any of the similar type advertising sites out there (of which there are literally hundreds)

The costs will be miniscule compared to the money they make - and it would make them EASIER to find not harder 

Banning the free-ads would simply make people more innovative in selling their pups - and any clown these days can pull together an impressive looking website and get it on the top of the search engines with very little knowledge or cost - we did it with the Lab Health website to establish it within 12 months as the most visited site (and as I said - whilst I know it has helped many - there are very many more who STILL don't believe the bad things will ever happen to them)

=========================

As for breed clubs charging - you would need a viable number of adverts to make it pay - it's still a hell of a lot of work - I do the occasional website for friends - but if I charged my 'going consultancy rate' - it simply wouldn't be financially viable for customers - which is why I limit it to friends.

We looked into it heavily for the Labrador Health website - but to charge, you've got to offer a lot - and a 'lot' costs a lot of money when doing it for a single breed - Labs, Goldies, GSDs and Cockers are possibly some of the few breeds where it MIGHT work - but then how many breed clubs are there - which one do you use? who maintains the records etc etc



raindog said:


> Gradually whittling away at the market aimed at by the puppy farmers, BYBs and naive/greedy/stupid "pet" breeders by ongoing education campaigns is the only thing that has any likelihood of succeeding. If we could, for example, get the RSPCA to use some of its ill-gotten gains to run a huge pro-good-breeding TV publicity campaign it would have an enormous effect.
> 
> Mick


I know exactly what I would like to see to 'force' the market - it would require a lot of changes - but would facilitate the capacity for mass marketing campaigns - once again though - this costs money and who will pay for it


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## onegirlandherdogs (Oct 24, 2011)

im a responsible breeder. we have a litter hopefully due in February but before you get pups what people dont realise is that you have to have 3 different sets of tests, eyes, hips and elbows altogether that comes to almost 800, then you've got stud fees and caring for a pup and mum. 
i also have a rescue dog, and my first family pet when i was little was a rescue, but both have/had quite big issues i'll give you the example of the current dog. when we first got her from a relative who had privetly rehomed her she was skinny scared and the list goes on, NO DOG SHELTER WOULD TAKE HER. infact one said we could take her to them, but they would PUT HER DOWN. and this wasnt a little shelter, it was one of the major uk rescue places and not the dogs trust. 
after a years' hard work she no longer bolts at the sight of a dog and with the help of our show and soon-to-be-mother she can greet a larger dog, she no longer flinches when we put shoes on, she lets me touch her scar riddled tail without freaking out. you might be thinking 'why didn't you just take her in at first' well because we had two other dogs to think about, one of which is old and she had already lunged at aggressively. but we had no other option and i woldnt part with her now.
breeding responsibly insures fit happy healthy dogs (of mostly pure breed decent though some will actively breed with mixed dogs) that will go to loving homes of people who want that type of dog to work or as a pet, the price puts most people off but if you want a dog its expensive a cheep puppy-farm dog will cost more in vets fees.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

I don't have concerns over YOU Swarthy as a responsible breeder, or in fact anyone in particular. As a whole I have concerns with very many of the public about how responsible they are with regards to breeding and dog ownership, and given the horrendous amounts of dog swopping; irresponsible gog ownership; breeding and studding that goes on over the freeads online, then I think that fair. I'm not sure why you have taken offence or given me a run down of your breeding practice, admirable though it is, as I am not directing my opinions at you personally, sorry if you thought otherwise.

The freeads online is not just about PF's but about very many BYB's, for want of a better word. There is an increase in ads promoting dogs at stud, litters for sale, adult dogs for sale and even puppies already looking for their second home. The economic climate is not helping and many are now turning to their dogs to try and make a quick buck without any thought whatsoever. It does not mean that everyone who advertises is bad, I know this, but it does unfortunately mean there is a very large proportion of irresponsible people advertising. I'm going to be honest, and I do not wish to offend anyone on here as I am sure many are good folk, but if I were advertising a litter I would not currently want to keep company with the many that advertise on these sites. I don't think it reflects well - just my opinon mind ;-)

Yes of course people can create their own website if free ads online were banned but in reality those wanting to make a quick buck, do you think they would have the money, and the energy to do so? I think many wouldn't because we all know if takes a lot of effort to maintain a site in a top position, and it costs too. 

For me it's all about the amount of effort needed, and currently anyone can sell, buy, swop, stud, breed a dog online in a matter of seconds. I want to see it getting harder. I want it to make people stop and think "is it really worth the hassle breeding my pet dog to my mates next door".... If banning freeads starts driving puppy buying traffic to other more reputable sites such as Champdogs, then is that a bad thing? No?

It will not stop all PF's, it will not stop all irresponsible BYB's but I believe it will deter many.

Swarthy you write:
"I know exactly what I would like to see to 'force' the market"

Can you elaborate? Would love to hear your thoughts, really I would


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I have lost count of the number of people who have told me they are getting a first dog, for the family, and the breed they have in mind has been completely unsuitable. I hope I have been able to talk them into a more suitable breed.

While people buy dogs on a whim without any research or thought, this will go on. Even if people have been into the breed and are looking for a specific breed because of it, they can still end up with a puppy farmer because they think they are getting a bargain.

Someone once practically told me I had been conned, paying £1000 for Ferdie five years ago, when she had seen newfies for £350. Stupid bloody woman!

Another friend of mine told me about a litter of newfies he was thinking about seeing, only £500 "because they are not kc registered". He is a stubborn sod and it took me ages to make him realise that it was not worth the risk.

While people are more interested in getting a bargain, this will go on and on.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I think that attitude towards buying a dog (and getting a bargain) are all too common. Added to that it doesn't seem to have any relationship to any particulary social class/education/wealth. I've known intelligent, educated people (who I would expect to know better) make irresponsible decisions when it come to getting a puppy.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

Agree Rocco33.

A while ago, frustrated with the huge amount of staffy types being passed from pillar to post on the online freeads, demonstrating that many had not put any or little thought into buying a dog and basically buying on a whim helped by the online freeads, I created this short vid below. TBH you could the same for almost all of our popular breeds e.g. labradors, GSD's, Rotties, even the toy breeds etc etc etc:

Staffordshire Bull Terrier - No time... out of time - YouTube

It is only one many reasons that I have concerns over the online freeads.


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

I have a friend who has a Dalmatian who she wants to mate. When I asked why she wanted to mate her, she said "all female dogs should have at least one litter before neutering" I say," there is no proof that a female dog is any better off for having one litter and look at all those rescues dogs that no one wants/not enough homes for" she says "well you dont see many Dalmatians in rescue." :mad2::mad2::mad2:

What more can I say!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

agnes2003 said:


> If banning freeads starts driving puppy buying traffic to other more reputable sites such as Champdogs, then is that a bad thing? No?
> 
> It will not stop all PF's, it will not stop all irresponsible BYB's but I believe it will deter many.


That's the point about Champdogs though - I've long heralded the site as THE place to go - they are pro-active about health-testing and in some ways more advanced than the KC.

Unfortunately - they redesigned their site about 6 months ago - I am sure the visitors are still getting to CD - what they are not doing in the main is getting through to the breeders websites or the breeders.

There has been a MASSIVE fall in referrals from CD (from consistently top to not even featuring in the top 10) since the redesign and puppy enquirer feedback is that they don't like using the site - unfortunately - the site owners don't agree  There are more than a few considering cancelling their membership when it comes up for renewal 

As the Internet isn't censored - all it would do it make them more innovative - websites which don't tell the truth - pretty much anyone can produce a decent site these days - as above - Google Adwords, Yahoo and other Paid for advertising - which would take them from hidden in the dregs in sites such as e-Pupz to top of the search engines and targeted ads appearing on other sides based on the information people are searching for.

So the removal of these sites could Inadvertently end up increasing the visibility of PF and BYB on the internet for relatively low cost as you set your own budgets - the owners of the PPC advertising sites aren't going to turn them away because it's money.

It won't stop them - it will just make them more innovative  and make them more prominent to people than the good breeders websites 



agnes2003 said:


> Swarthy you write:
> "I know exactly what I would like to see to 'force' the market"
> 
> Can you elaborate? Would love to hear your thoughts, really I would


I started a post on it the other day but scrapped it - I have no doubt it wouldn't be popular with some - will have a rewrite and post later


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> and how many are KC registered with fully health tested parents? PF and BYB produce as many (if not more) pedigrees as cross-breeds (often Labradors) and for all the ones I've seen in my time, most of them are very strange looking examples of the breed
> 
> I've seen ONE example of a fantastic specimen of a Labrador coming through rescue after being a street dog - I sadly didn't know his background or breeding - but he was most definitely an exception to the rule and I am sure his breeders would be horrified if they knew what had happened to him
> Like


Just trying to clarify alot of people think there are loads of crossbreeds in rescue when in fact the 'genunie' crossbreed is quite rare these days - I don't have enough knowledge to comment on what are good examples of their breed or not; and as most of the dogs are strays we get have no idea if they have papers or not.. but just if members of the public want to rescue and have a particular breed it may not be as difficult as they think.

I think people that want to rescue know they are taking their lumps with any health or temprament issues the dog may have (which it may not have at all of course)

We did have one KC reg staffie in with papers; no idea if it was a good pedigree; he had to be put down as he showed increasing temprament issues with people and went on to bite someone at rescue - nice that the owners felt fit to dump him then sign him over when tracked down without mentioning any issue and someone had to get badly bitten. (not saying the owners lack of responsiblity had anything to do either way with wither the dog was KC reg etc).

Not denying many of the 'pure' breed dogs we have in are from PF & BYB; but more highlighting that members of the public are often suprised that purebreed dogs come into rescue so often these days. (OK so there are more likely to be certain breeds than others but it still happens)


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> But when a large percentage of people don't like the KC to start with - and a further probably half of those that do use the KC website then get lambasted for doing so on public forums - there are one HELL of a lot of messages to get straight - that show and working breeders are NOT the scurge of the dog breeding world and that the KC remains the only credible institution for anything to do with pedigree dog breeding in the UK - not perfect - but working damned hard both behind and in front of the scenes to make significant changes.


...and hallelujah to that !!! .... just a thought .... if more responsible breeders used internet puppy sales sites and emphasised the fact that they health test/issue contracts/ work out COI's / give after sales support etc etc then the right way of breeding and rearing pups could be seen as the norm in contrast to the present situation where puppy buyers going onto those sites often ONLY have the unethical breeders to choose from - which is why they think that phrases such as 'Vet checked' is ok ! ....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> That's the point about Champdogs though - I've long heralded the site as THE place to go - they are pro-active about health-testing and in some ways more advanced than the KC.
> 
> Unfortunately - they redesigned their site about 6 months ago - I am sure the visitors are still getting to CD - what they are not doing in the main is getting through to the breeders websites or the breeders.
> 
> ...


I don't like the new Champdogs site at all. It was so much easier to negotiate before they changed it. But are you saying they have changed their policies? Should I take their link off my website?

I always send people there because I know how fussy they are about who they list, but has that changed? I sincerely hope not.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

newfiesmum. I don't know if this a change in their policy, same or better even but their current policy is as follows:

Terms and Conditions of Membership

Champdogs membership is open to non-commercial dog breeders and owners. We do not accept membership applications from commercial breeders or puppy dealers.
We expect all breeders on Champdogs to adhere to the relevant breed society/club ethics and expect all the appropriate health checks for their breed to be performed.
No dog or bitch owned by any member shall be mated with any other breed or with unregistered stock. Breeders found to carry out this practice will be removed. Exception: At times the KC grants permission for the inter-breeding of pedigree dogs in set circumstances.
We reserve the right to refuse or terminate membership of any breeder found to not be acting in the best interests of their dogs. In particular any breeder found to be breeding from an underage bitch, having two litters from the same bitch within an 11 month period will be removed.
Any breeder who knowingly breeds from a dog with unacceptable health test results will be removed.
Champdogs considers the current Kennel Club age limit of 12 months far too young for a bitch to be bred from. We apply a minimum age limit of 24 months at the date of whelping unless the relevant national breed club stipulates a different age.
Bitches will not produce more than 4 litters in total nor will be bred from after they have reached 8 years of age.
Dogs must be at least 18 months old before they can be added to the stud dog register.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

Big thumbs up to the UK Labradoodle Association for their very informative website and code of Practice for Breeders, which is as follows:


Labradoodle Code of Practice for Breeders

No bitch bred from in the same 12 months as having a litter
No bitch to have a litter before 2 yrs or after 7 years, bitches to be limited to 4 litters.
All tests relative to breed carried out on parent dogs and KC and vet certificates available for viewing by prospective purchasers (Potential purchasers should be aware of the hereditary problems that can crop up in the breed)
Puppies are wormed with a veterinary preparation and schedule provided
Puppy comes with puppy pack of information leaflet, pedigree, registration documents where possible, photos of parent dogs and the next 48 hours of food.
The breeder must supply a contract with their puppy stating that they will remain responsible for the future of the pup, in that they guarantee to assist with rehoming of the dog at any time in the future, if it should become necessary.
All bitches and puppies must be kept in warm comfortable conditions.
In the breeding of Miniature Labradoodles care must be taken that too large a dog is not mated to too small a bitch
All adverts to have the breeder's full name and landline number, address to be supplied in full to puppy viewers.
(With effect from 1st October 2009) The parents of all puppies advertised on this site to have the minimum required testing as follows:
Miniature and Standard Poodle - 1) Hip scoring 2) Eye testing
Toy Poodles - 1) Eye testing
Labrador and Golden Retrievers - 1) Hip scoring 2) Eye testing
Labradoodles (inc Goldendoodles and other crosses) - 1) Hip scoring 2) Elbow scoring 3) Eye testing

Any breeders found to be in persistent breach of this CoP will be subject to removal from the site.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

agnes2003 said:


> Big thumbs up to the UK Labradoodle Association for their very informative website and code of Practice for Breeders, which is as follows:
> 
> Labradoodle Code of Practice for Breeders
> 
> ...


I'd like to see them add elbow grading to their recommendations, it's a contentious issue, as the elbow grading system isn't as widely accepted as the hip scoring method, but it's better than nothing imo.

Tbh, I've looked at a few of the breeders off there before, and I'm not impressed, they are pretty much breeding for the sake of it, and charging large prices for pups that aren't that well bred. I'd prefer to see something that tells potential puppy buyers to take into account things like conformation, neutering too early to avoid growth issues, which seems to be a problem with some Labradoodles, etc, etc, as well as understanding the inheritable conditions for both breeds.

I'm not saying it's the worst site, but it could do better, the Labradoodle Trust site is good, gives good honest info, although I'm not sure it promotes any breeders as such. I'm currently a member, although I've asked to be removed and they've ignored me, for a site listing chocolate Labrador breeders. They supposedly only list those who health test, but I know for a fact that the full sister to one of my bitches has been bred from without a current clear eye cert, so I won't support them, nor their website knowingly, and tell people to avoid them.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Arrrrrgghhhh - my points about CD are clearly NOT getting through - I use CD - and have always heralded them as THE place to go for pups - I don't need any clarification on their practices or ethics - I've been there long enough to know and have seen the changes.

It's the SITE DESIGN is discouraging users and REDUCING the number of enquiries getting through to breeders from the pages and to the websites



newfiesmum said:


> I don't like the new Champdogs site at all. It was so much easier to negotiate before they changed it. But are you saying they have changed their policies? Should I take their link off my website?
> 
> I always send people there because I know how fussy they are about who they list, but has that changed? I sincerely hope not.


No - they haven't changed any policies - it IS still the place to go - but there is clearly an issue with people using the site and over time, this could quite possibly affect the number of people willing to spend their hard earned money.

They are still the best on the web for anything doggie breeding related - but their new design appears to be putting off buyers and users alike  and we are seeing in this in the shift in how people are getting to us - and it's rarely through CD at the moment.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I wish Champdogs would accept English Shepherds.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Excellent post DD - I know I've said it before - but will say it again - your wisdom and insight belies your years





Ceearott said:


> I would second that Swarthy, lol!
> 
> I can imagine DD making quite a stir on this committee - PMSL!!


I agree with all the above! :thumbup:


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Arrrrrgghhhh - my points about CD are clearly NOT getting through - I use CD - and have always heralded them as THE place to go for pups - I don't need any clarification on their practices or ethics - I've been there long enough to know and have seen the changes.
> 
> It's the SITE DESIGN is discouraging users and REDUCING the number of enquiries getting through to breeders from the pages and to the websites
> 
> ...


Re CD - I had an email the other day saying I had been chosen at random to try out the new video thingy?? I just had to go on the site and upload a video and peeps get to see that on my homepage or summat. TBH I cant be bothered - I am seriously thinking of not renewing my account either, partly because I think the new site is pants and partly because I aint gonna be breeding for a few years yet, so cant see the point in paying the fee anyways.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Excellent post DD - I know I've said it before - but will say it again - your wisdom and insight belies your years





Ceearott said:


> I would second that Swarthy, lol!
> 
> I can imagine DD making quite a stir on this committee - PMSL!!





Spellweaver said:


> I agree with all the above! :thumbup:


aaw thanks guys - the committee dont know whats coming their way :scared: 



raindog said:


> Longterm, education is the* only* effective way of improving the situation. Legislation, banning sites etc won't really affect anything


Couldnt agree more Mick!


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