# Help please!



## catnipfairy (Mar 14, 2011)

Hi, 
I'm new to forums so sorry if i've posted this in the wrong place! 
My two year old cat gave birth to her second litter today, with her first one she had 4 kittens and they were all really healthy and she had no problems what so ever.
This one though, she has only had 3 kittens, i kept a close eye on her and only saw one lot of after birth right at the end.
I rang the vet who said she should be fine and just to keep an eye out for any discharge.
Mum cat has been quite happy, purring and eating and all the kittens have been feeding but when i checked on her about an hour ago she had 2 big round lumps sticking out either side of her stomach, they move around a bit like the kittens did. 
I've never seen that happen before, do you think she could still be pregnant with another 2 kittens? Or do you think there could be a problem?
I dont know whether to ring the emergency out of hours vets or to wait until the morning? 
Sorry i'm panicing but shes a very loved kitty and im worried! If anyone has any advice it would be very much appreciated!
Thanks! x


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Hi what breed is she? 

Id be on the phone to the vets, cant leave anything to chance with pregnancy, let us know what they say 
3 is actually a good size litter, I have a litter of 3 here at the mo.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

It's never a bad idea to ring the vet. It'll put your mind at rest rather than worrying what might be causing the lumps.
It may be more kittens, it be retained placentas, it may be nothing but for peace of mind and your cat's health, you need to get it checked. The cost of an out of hours vet is one of the prices to be considered when breeding


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## catnipfairy (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm not sure what breed she is actually, shes a short hair white polydactal! Im not breeding her, shes just managed to escape before her oppointment to be spayed the first time and because we kept 2 of the kittens she kept lactating until a month ago so we couldnt get her done.
We took her to the vets last month again hoping to get her spayed and soem how she had got pregnant again even though we had been trying to keep her in.
Thats why i wasnt sure if i had posted in the right place! 
But i'll ring the vets now  wasn't sure if i was over reacting or not!


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## shells (Jan 16, 2011)

hope your girl is ok xx


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

catnipfairy said:


> I'm not sure what breed she is actually, shes a short hair white polydactal! Im not breeding her, shes just managed to escape before her oppointment to be spayed the first time and because we kept 2 of the kittens she kept lactating until a month ago so we couldnt get her done.
> We took her to the vets last month again hoping to get her spayed and soem how she had got pregnant again even though we had been trying to keep her in.
> Thats why i wasnt sure if i had posted in the right place!
> But i'll ring the vets now  wasn't sure if i was over reacting or not!


oh  well she could have been spayed at 5-6months, so you are breeding her, or you would have had it done or kept her in, plus that is a abnormality. :frown2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydactyl_cat

you dont 'try' to keep her in, you keep them in! mine have never esacaped and they are breeding queens.

Anyway remember that she can get pregnant right away again, or it will be one long circle of you trying to keep her in and her becoming pregnant.

let us know what the vet says.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

catnipfairy said:


> I'm not sure what breed she is actually,* shes a short hair white polydactal*! Im not breeding her, shes just managed to escape before her oppointment to be spayed the first time and because we kept 2 of the kittens she kept lactating until a month ago so we couldnt get her done.
> We took her to the vets last month again hoping to get her spayed and soem how she had got pregnant again even though we had been trying to keep her in.
> Thats why i wasnt sure if i had posted in the right place!
> But i'll ring the vets now  wasn't sure if i was over reacting or not!


What a coincidence! There was another question of this kind from an owner of a cat with this deformity, and the thread was closed.

I know this is neither the time to ask questions about this particular deformity, however, once your queries about your cat have been answered, I'd be very interested to learn about this deformity as I'd never heard of it until the other thread was started, and sadly it was closed very quick, so my learning opportunity via the forum members was halted very fast.

Sorry I cannot help with your queries this evening, but please post back in future with regards to your polydactyl cat and the ethics behind breeding as I'm very interested to learn. Thank you


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## catnipfairy (Mar 14, 2011)

Thanks Shells 

Taylorbaby, I did say I didn't know what breed she is, I was just adding that she is polydactyl. I love my "abnormal" cat very much but I'm not trying to breed her!
I have a male neutured cat who likes to go outside so it is harder to keep her in, I have been doing my best too and did try to get her spayed after her first litter but the vet wouldn't do it.

Anyway i will let you know what they say

Thank you all


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2011)

catnipfairy said:


> Thanks Shells
> 
> Taylorbaby, I did say I didn't know what breed she is, I was just adding that she is polydactyl. I love my "abnormal" cat very much but I'm not trying to breed her!
> I have a male neutured cat who likes to go outside so it is harder to keep her in, I have been doing my best too and did try to get her spayed after her first litter but the vet wouldn't do it.
> ...


My mum has a queen and a tom who is neutered the queen is entire as she has not yet been spayed shes booked in for 2 weeks time.

My mum manages to keep her female in and let her other cat out on top of making sure my 2 younger brothers dont let her out and being disabled.

If you really want to do something you do it.

Buy a crate and put her in it while you let your male out, bring the shopping in and so on....easy.

And spay ASAP.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

dougal22 said:


> What a coincidence! There was another question of this kind from an owner of a cat with this deformity, and the thread was closed.
> 
> I know this is neither the time to ask questions about this particular deformity, however, once your queries about your cat have been answered, I'd be very interested to learn about this deformity as I'd never heard of it until the other thread was started, and sadly it was closed very quick, so my learning opportunity via the forum members was halted very fast.
> 
> Sorry I cannot help with your queries this evening, but please post back in future with regards to your polydactyl cat and the ethics behind breeding as I'm very interested to learn. Thank you


Polydactyl cats have extra toes. Ernest Hemingway had a colony of them at his home in the Florida Keys. The OP on this thread has said that her cat became pregnant by 'accident' so this isn't a deliberate attempt to breed polydactyl cats. It's worth looking them up on the internet as I believe in America they are bred deliberately, along with other varieties with deformities


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

catnipfairy said:


> Hi,
> I'm new to forums so sorry if i've posted this in the wrong place!
> *My two year old cat gave birth to her second litter today*, with her first one she had 4 kittens and they were all really healthy and she had no problems what so ever.





catnipfairy said:


> Thanks Shells
> 
> Taylorbaby, I did say I didn't know what breed she is, I was just adding that she is polydactyl. I love my "abnormal" cat very much *but I'm not trying to breed her!*
> 
> ...


Two litters? That constitutes breeding.

And why wouldn't your vet spay her?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

catnipfairy said:


> Thanks Shells
> 
> Taylorbaby, I did say I didn't know what breed she is, I was just adding that she is polydactyl. I love my "abnormal" cat very much *but I'm not trying to breed her!*I have a male neutured cat who likes to go outside so it is harder to keep her in, I have been doing my best too and did try to get her spayed after her first litter but the vet wouldn't do it.
> 
> ...


Well you Are trying to breed her and you ARE a 'breeder' now, OK maybe some people forgive 1 'accidental' litter, accidental 'definition' something that can not be prevented' hence why there are NO accidental litter  as neutering her 5-6months this wouldnt have happened.

Then to 'try' and keep her in and it happens again, why didnt you spay her then when you found out she was in kitten? 
How old is she now? and when she had her first litter?

I have 2 outdoor cats and indoor queens, never had a cat escape ESP when in call, because I dont 'try' I just do it!

I take it that she has no health tests, no idea what the cat had who mated her? Any illness? hereditry or otherwise, I mean she obviously was let out more than once to mate!

good luck, let us know what the vet says.



lymorelynn said:


> Polydactyl cats have extra toes. Ernest Hemingway had a colony of them at his home in the Florida Keys. The OP on this thread has said that her cat became pregnant by 'accident' so this isn't a deliberate attempt to breed polydactyl cats. It's worth looking them up on the internet as I believe in America they are bred deliberately, along with other varieties with deformities


Sorry I just dont beleive its a 'accident' esp twice?
maybe some people forgive 1 'accidental' litter, accidental 'definition' something that can not be prevented' hence why there are NO accidental litter  as neutering her 5-6months this wouldnt have happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydactyl_cat 
says they can have all sorts of problems, even behavioural problems  and triouble learning to walk


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> Polydactyl cats have extra toes. Ernest Hemingway had a colony of them at his home in the Florida Keys. *The OP on this thread has said that her cat became pregnant by 'accident' *so this isn't a deliberate attempt to breed polydactyl cats. It's worth looking them up on the internet as I believe in America they are bred deliberately, along with other varieties with deformities


Thanks for the info. I'll have to do more research as I'm interested as to why people would breed deformed cats.

With regards to the accidental pregnancy - IMO, once is an accident, twice is downright slack. Especially in a cat that is deformed


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## catnipfairy (Mar 14, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> I know this is neither the time to ask questions about this particular deformity, however, once your queries about your cat have been answered, I'd be very interested to learn about this deformity as I'd never heard of it until the other thread was started, and sadly it was closed very quick, so my learning opportunity via the forum members was halted very fast.
> 
> Sorry I cannot help with your queries this evening, but please post back in future with regards to your polydactyl cat and the ethics behind breeding as I'm very interested to learn. Thank you


I'm probably not the best person to ask as I rescued the mine and as I said before had never been intending to breed her. I know that it is classed as a deformity but it doesnt seem to effect mine negitively at all.
She has one extra toe on all her paws, a bit like thumbs. In her first litter 3 of the kittens had 2 extra toes on their front paws and 1 extra one on their back paws.
One of the kittens was normal. 
None of them have any problems at all though, they are all completely healthy, they were all walking by 2 and 1/2 weeks and they are alot more agile than other cats. We only kept two of the kittens and they are both now 7 months. (They have been spayed!) 
They are amazing climbers and dont have any health problems at all.

None of them have any had any health problems at all and hopefully when the vet has checked her it will all be ok tonight!

Thats all I can say really, im not an expert and other people on here will probably know alot more about them than me but they are happy and healthy and thats all I want! 
Hope that helps a little and sorry I cant give more information!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

catnipfairy said:


> I'm probably not the best person to ask as I rescued the mine and as I said before had never been intending to breed her. I know that it is classed as a deformity but it doesnt seem to effect mine negitively at all.
> She has one extra toe on all her paws, a bit like thumbs. In her first litter 3 of the kittens had 2 extra toes on their front paws and 1 extra one on their back paws.
> One of the kittens was normal.
> None of them have any problems at all though, they are all completely healthy, they were all walking by 2 and 1/2 weeks and they are alot more agile than other cats. We only kept two of the kittens and they are both now 7 months. (They have been spayed!)
> ...


so she is a rescue cat who you let have litters, they are 7 months old, and in that 7 months you never got her neutered? so say her first litter was at 1year old, you had 8 months to neuter and didnt, then 7 months and now shes in kitten again, im sorry but what do you expect really?

When are you going to neuter her? You say you mangaed to get her kittens in but not her? 

what did the vet say when you called him about taking her in?


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

catnipfairy said:


> I'm probably not the best person to ask as I rescued the mine and as I said before had never been intending to breed her. I know that it is classed as a deformity but it doesnt seem to effect mine negitively at all.
> She has one extra toe on all her paws, a bit like thumbs. In her first litter 3 of the kittens had 2 extra toes on their front paws and 1 extra one on their back paws.
> One of the kittens was normal.
> None of them have any problems at all though, they are all completely healthy, they were all walking by 2 and 1/2 weeks and they are alot more agile than other cats. We only kept two of the kittens and they are both now 7 months. (They have been spayed!)
> ...


Thanks for the info 

I don't understand though, why would your vet spay the kittens, but not their mother, it doesn't make sense  After all, we pay our vet, we are entitled they do as we ask (within reason of course and in the best interests of the animal).


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

That is a very interesting point.If you could get her kittens neutered,why was it so difficult to have her neutered.









Sorry dougal slow typer at work


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

From your description, the lumps could be more kittens - no need to panic if they are, long gaps between kittens are quite normal. What did the vet say? 

Liz


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

catnipfairy said:


> Hi,
> I'm new to forums so sorry if i've posted this in the wrong place!
> My two year old cat gave birth to her second litter today, with her first one she had 4 kittens and they were all really healthy and she had no problems what so ever.
> This one though, she has only had 3 kittens, i kept a close eye on her and only saw one lot of after birth right at the end.
> ...


Can this thread stay on topic, the ins and outs of why the OPs cat wasn't neutered are irrelevant. Yes, accidental litter are considered anti-social but can we please offer assistance and not jibbs to members who come here for the good of their cats.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

If OP in UK, please contact Cats Protection if help needed with neutering, already posted a link on another similar thread ...


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## mycatroxy (Jan 5, 2011)

hi hope your cat is ok!! we all make mistakes (sometimes more than once!!) and she sounds adorable!!!


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## catnipfairy (Mar 14, 2011)

Thank you for the few helpful and nice comments. she is fine, the vet came out last night and said she was just constipated, apparently that can be comman as it was only 2 hours after she had finished having the kitten, shes now used the litter tray and the lumps have gone, shes booked for another check up in a few days to make sure everything is still ok.

As for all the other comments I cant believe how judgemental and bitchy people have been! I came here because it was supposed to be a friendly forum and I was worried about my cats health and wanted a bit of advice.
You have all chosen to judge with out any idea of the situation! Not that its any of your business but I rescued her when she was thought to be about 10 months old. 
When I got her she was incrediable under weight and scared. She went to the vets straight away and had her injections, health checks etc but the vet didnt want to spay her straight away as she was in a really bad way. She thought and I happily agreed that it would be better to leave her a month to build herself up a bit and get settled before having her spayed.
Over the next month with lots of love and attention she put on a healthy weight and became the most friendly loving cat. 
My other cat was already used to going outside and had a magnetic cat flap anyway but i put a second magnetic cat flap on the door to my porch so that there were two obsticales in her way if she tried to get out.
I had an operation myself during the month that she was supposed to be being spayed and call me a bad irresponsible person all you like but I delayed her operation by another month as i was in and out of hospital and wanted to make sure i was there to look after her when she had hers.

She did get out during the first week in was in hospital whilst my friend was house sitting but i hardly think thats something you can blame people for as anyone with a cat thats been in heat will know when they want to get it they are very determind.

When I had finished my hospital oppiontments and we took her down she was already too far along for my vet to feel happy to do it, she said she could if we really wanted but she didnt feel happy doing it her self and to me risking my cats health when she was now quite happy and healthy after all she had been through wasnt worth it so i let her have them.

Also as any of you should know who have had a cat thats had kittens should know that they cant be spayed whilst the cat is still lactating and all though we kept the kittens in a seperate part of the house she could still hear them and smell them on us so she continued lactating.
We took the kittens to get spayed when they were 7 months and took her down as well hoping to have her done but the vet said again that she was pregnant.

I don't know how she got out this time and can only guess that she beat her way through both catflaps while i was work but she was always inside when I got home so I had no reason to suspect anything had happened
Some of you may be confortable keeping a cat locked in a cage whilst you are out but I personally think it is cruel, cats werent ment to be caged animals! 

I am not keeping any of the kittens from this litter and have loving homes for all three to go to as soon as they are ready, she is already booking in to be spayed in 12 weeks time wehn she should of stopped lactating as the kittens wont be around to keep her milk flowing so there shouldn't be any problems this time.

I cant believe how judgemental you all are and if wanting to make sure your cat is healthy and happy and goes through as little trauma as possible makes me irresponsible then thats fine but i would rather be that and have happy loved pets than be sad people with nothing better to than bitch at someone who was just asking for a little freindly advice. 

Again thank you too the few people that actually tried to help and sent nice messgaes but I think this will be the last time I will be using this forum.

I hope to all of you that were bitching, that if anything happens to any of your pets or if you ever need any help that people treat you a lot better than you have treaten me on here.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

You may think it is cruel to keep a cat locked up, etc, but it is crueler to allow her to keep having kittens.

Are there more obstacles in her way to getting out this time, so she does not end up in the same position again? Unspayed cats that go outside, WILL get pregnant. One time is all it will take and she will be on litter number 3 in a heartbeat. I assume you were able to keep all the kittens inside before they were spayed. It is not impossible, nor difficult, to keep cats inside.

No one is being 'bitchy' to you on here, but allowing your cat to breed is irresponsible and people just want to make sure that your cat does not have to have another litter so young.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

catnipfairy said:


> Thank you for the few helpful and nice comments. she is fine, the vet came out last night and said she was just constipated, apparently that can be comman as it was only 2 hours after she had finished having the kitten, shes now used the litter tray and the lumps have gone, shes booked for another check up in a few days to make sure everything is still ok.
> 
> As for all the other comments I cant believe how judgemental and bitchy people have been! I came here because it was supposed to be a friendly forum and I was worried about my cats health and wanted a bit of advice.
> You have all chosen to judge with out any idea of the situation! Not that its any of your business but I rescued her when she was thought to be about 10 months old.
> ...


Plus to add to what Gloworm said before me ... a lot of us are also thinking about the poor cats and kittens in rescue centres who's life will come to an end because your queens kittens are taking up a home that they could have had.

There is really no excuse for this happening. There might be a long list of attempts to excuse it (and I am sorry to hear you've been through so much), but in reality she could have been spayed at any time. Even when you were in hospital you could have asked whoever it was who was feeding your cats to take her to the vet to meet a spay appointment.

Peoples posts are also not only directed at you and your situation, but also those people who come after you with similar situations, where there may still be time to stop an unwanted pregnancy.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Also regarding the lactating stoppingher spaying... You can spay a lactating cat, certainly when the kittens are not even nursing! If they were kept separately, her smelling them and lactating shouldn't have stopped a spay.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

catnipfairy said:


> Thank you for the few helpful and nice comments. she is fine, the vet came out last night and said she was just constipated, apparently that can be comman as it was only 2 hours after she had finished having the kitten, shes now used the litter tray and the lumps have gone, shes booked for another check up in a few days to make sure everything is still ok.
> 
> *As for all the other comments I cant believe how judgemental and bitchy people have been*! I came here because it was supposed to be a friendly forum and I was worried about my cats health and wanted a bit of advice.
> You have all chosen to judge with out any idea of the situation! Not that its any of your business but I rescued her when she was thought to be about 10 months old.
> ...


I'm astounded at *your* attitude rather than that you claim you've been on the receiving end from others on this thread.

People have given you advice, not shown any bitchiness at all as you claim, reasonable questions have been asked of you in a very reasonable manner and people have given advice based on their own experience. So, what's the problem???

I feel you're over-reacting (just my opinion) and I also can't help feeling the sense of deja vu as this forum has so many new people posting inflammatory subjects and when they don't get the replies they desire or people dare to ask questions, out come the toys from the pram.

I think it's sad that you've chosen this route, instead of accepting the advice and the questions with the good grace they were intended. But, that's your choice.

Good luck with your cat and kittens. I hope she doesn't escape again to have a third litter - and the suggestion you claim about keeping a cat in a cage, if you read the post again, the term used was 'crate' and a crate is usually very large, can house a cat bed, litter tray, water and food bowls, and it was only meant for a short term solution while you were out of the house, not to keep your cat in 24/7. So, before you jump on other people, please read the advice in the manner it was intended first.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2011)

I am sorry but I think many of the replies on this thread were very informative.

A rescue has gone through alot already why would you want to add to the stress? you have had plenty of time to get her spayed which you have not done. Forget the whole "it was the last thing on my to do list" it should have been first. You do NOT get a animal without having the money aside to neuter it, vaccinate it, chip it and feed it. Or am I old fashioned? 

Learn from this please and book her in for a spay.


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## catnipfairy (Mar 14, 2011)

westie~ma said:


> Can this thread stay on topic, the ins and outs of why the OPs cat wasn't neutered are irrelevant. Yes, accidental litter are considered anti-social but can we please offer assistance and not jibbs to members who come here for the good of their cats.


As I have said in all my posts I have been doing my best, obviously i'm not as perfect as all of you.
She has been taken down several times to be spayed and the vet wouldn't. I dont know if they can spayed when lactating all i know is what I was told by my vet.
I also said in my posts that the kittens have homes to go to and she is booked in for 12 weeks time which is the earliest the vet said she can be done.
I also said I don't know how she got out the second time as she was always in before I went to work and after I came home. Obviously my procautions weren't good enough but have you never made any mistakes? Its not like I was putting no effort in at all. 
As for making sure you have the money for them to spayed, vets etc when you get a pet that has not been a problem. All the others have been spayed and cost certainly isnt a problem.
I rescued her and have been in contact with the vets practically every month to make sure she is ok.
She was a complete state when I rescued her and I have worked very hard to get her to the happy healthy point she is at now.
I'm not a breeder, she is a pet, im not dealing with this sort of thing regulary and I have been taking advice continusly from the vet.

That is the reason I came on here, to ask a simple question about whether I should call the vet out late at night or if she would be ok to wait until morning because i was worried about her.

Whatever your opions on when cats should be spayed have nothing to do with the questions I was asking. With out any idea of the situation you have gone on about how i have been slack to let her get pregnant twice and what I should of done.
You don't know the situation, despite me trying to explain it too you. It's not the last thing on the to do list.
I hardly think you can tell me i'm wrong for waiting a month the first time when I was in hospital, funny enough as much as i love her to bits when im having major surgory myself and having alot of invasive treatments the last thing on my mind is whether she is going to be spayed on time.

If you think your treatment of me has been fair then you are welcome to your opinion but as your moderator said I came her for some advice on a particular topic not to have you all make digs about spaying.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Please have a look at this thread http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/153416-neutering-spaying.html (Thank you Celicababe 1986)
There is an excellent website too which has links to many cat welfare schemes. I would put a link up but as it also contains another forum I can't do that. I can suggest that you search 'neutering for cats' and you will find it.
This is a very important issue and while some members have put their views over in a strong manner they are thinking of the welfare of your cat. This doesn't just apply to you catnipfairy but to many others reading this who for whatever reason might find themselves in a similar situation.
The more people who understand the need to neuter before this happens the fewer cats and kittens will end up dumped or in rescues. Yours may be happy and well cared for, many will not.
I think everyone now has said all that needs to be said to the OP regarding this and unless there is anything more that is relevant to the original problem (which I understand has been dealt with by a vet) then I will close the thread. There is no point in going round in circles


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