# My lab has an attitude! Advice please



## Vicki_journalist (Dec 30, 2009)

Hi everyone, 

I've written many posts before talking about my labs behaviour towards me but more recently I've realised she is just going ott and has basically not been taught much impulse control in her previous home. She also has an attitude!

I know how to deal with her inside the house but it is outside on walks that is the problem. 
For example, I took her out for a long long walk the other night and she was as good as gold until we got to the road which leads to the park, she wanted to go up it but I wanted her to cross it. 
Sooo what did she do, she started jumping up tugging at my arm! This time I turned my back on her and held onto a fence (I must have looked like a right wally!) basically after a couple of minutes and after ripping my coat, she stopped on her own. 
She then tried it 3 more times and once again I ignored, turned back and held onto the nearest object! She was jumping and barking but each time it lasted for a shorter time. 
I would say sit firmly and she did it straight away. 
I then got her home, wanted to go to my negihbours house, (just past my door) and would she budge? no, she wanted to go home! So what did she do, she jumped and started tugging at my sleeve again until I gave up, so she won. 
The next morning she had the muzzle on and I took it off so she could say hi to another dog, they then started getting playful on the lead so I pulled her away and her excitement was re-directed towards my arm! The muzzle went back on.

In short, my dog has developed an attitude! She can be the sweetest chilled out lab but then if she doesn't want to do something this is how she gets her message across. 
At the moment everytime she starts indoors she is met with a firm naughty and the muzzle goes on, (which calms her right down!) it stays on for a couple of mins then is off. 
Outdoors she is wearing the muzzle now until she learns to not jump up on me and tug. 

I didn't like ignoring her behaviour because although it showed her I was not playing with her by reacting it allows her to get away with it. 
I also don't think her wearing the muzzle will teach her anything but my mum and dog trainer think it will help break her habit. 

Everything is getting better and her behaviour is improving in this aspect but any tips would be appreciated. 
The one thing I have not tried it to spray water at her when walking if she does start, have people found this effective?


I'm sure I have not helped the situation by being all affectionate to her and making her the centre of attention when I first got her as I was so excited about having her, so I am changing the way I deal with her now by trying to be more calm and assertive and only reward her calm behaviour.

Thanks in advance, 

Vicki


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2010)

Some people aren't going to like this, but I had the same problem with Alfie when I first got him. My arms were black and blue from his constant nipping while we were out.
He would do exactly what yours is doing, I tried every thing over a long period.
Nothing worked 
One day we were just finishing a walk and he didn't want to go home and started on me, jumping up and latching on to the top of my arm, keeping hold and dangling his whole weight from my skin.
I lost it, and picked his front feet off the ground by holding his scruff either side off his face and just roared at him. He was so shocked, he just stood and looked at me. 
Never had a problem since.
It's not a method I would recommend, but I sincerely sympathies, and wondered if you could find a less severe shock method that may work


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

SOmetimes this works Rona - it worked with my kids too when they were very young and I didn't smack at all-- one day I was trying to toilet train my lad (old enough to understand and we been using lots of positive stuff) when he soiled himslef and ended up kicking poo in my face - I lost it - yelled lots and smacked his leg - he was perfectly clean from that moment on. Sometimes (and I mean sometimes) this does seem to work when kids/dogs/cats are just pushing it that bit too much - and I mean getting cross not the smacking bit.


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## Vicki_journalist (Dec 30, 2009)

Apart from just shocking her does anyone else have any advice they would do in a similar situation?

Thanks, 

Vicki


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi. 

I happen to think that when a dog is behaving like this, it is showing total disrespect for the handler. Some people will talk about, and mention bite inhabition, some will say it is over excitment or that it is just a trainig issue. Dogs do not need to be trained not to "attack" their owner, but need to understand that the human is the boss and it
cannot behave like this. 

In my opinion u need to get rid of the muzzle and start treating your dog as an animal who needs reminding of his place in your pack - which is right at the bottom. 

When u have a dog who is displaying dominant, aggressive behaviour, u need to go back to basics. 

At the moment u r addressing the symptom, I.e the use of a muzzle, but not the root cause. 

You can PM me if u want any further info. Otherwise I'm sure somebody will be along and tell u to use a clicker lolp


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## Beardy (Jun 4, 2008)

Unacceptable behaviour from any dog, large or small. She has to know who is in charge. Zak once bit me in excitement when I was agility training. I immediately told him DOWN & I roared at him DONT YOU DARE DO THAT. I did go over the top, but he hurt me. He has never done it again. Dogs & children are just the same, I never had to raise my voice to my daughter, but my son was completely different. I had to raise my voice & let him know that I was in charge, your lab sounds like she is trying it on & getting away with murder at the moment. Be firm & consistent & give her plenty of praise when she is getting things right.:thumbup:


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

Well this seems like the place to confess.

I have never scruffed a dog.
Bella is only 7kg anyway. But she has frustrated me beyond belief on the occasion. I have picked her up and shook her and shouted at her, and when I put her back down she is an angel.

Bella doesn't nip or bite or jump up, but sometimes she just doesn't know which way to walk and walks in a million directions. I hate pulling on the lead, and I never do this. I use my voice to get her where I want her. Hasn't happened in a while, but there have been times where she has just refused to walk in one direction. I am very patient owner and will let my dog sniff her heart out, but when she has finished and just refuses to walk one way repeatedly, she gets picked up and shouted at, and then she walks beautifully.

Also, Bella always comes along to friends houses. she is allowed on furniture at home, and at ceratin other people's houses. There are people who do not want oets on furniture and I take her own basket along. If she tries to get on their couch I shout at her and she doesn't attempt it, whereas gently telling her no will not have this effect.

In summary, I think it is ok to occasionally raise your voice.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

When your dog finally relenquishes her attack click and then treat. That way she learns not ripping your limbs off at the joint is a good thing. 

In all seriousness you do need to show her who is in charge and by laying down clear rules at home in no uncertain terms will win you respect points. Don't think that by being stern that you are being cruel as your dog sounds like it knows it can get it's own way if it kicks up a big enough fuss. No getting away with anything is needed here. 

Put all the toys away in a cupboard.
Only allow her to sleep in her bed. If there is any bedding in the bed remove this.
Treat only exceptional behaviour.

She needs to start to earn her priviledges rather than have them handed to her on a plate.

How long have you had her and is she a rescue? If so do you know any of her background, how long she was in kennels and how the staff were with her?

Do not feel sorry for. She doesn't feel sorry for herself and isn't afraid to put her point if view across as it were.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

just to say...

if U do any of these behaviors 
* scruff the dog 
* shake the dog 
* SHOUT into their FACE 
* grab, jerk, hang by the lead; dangle by the collar... 
* etc...

which lets face it, these are aggression - its HUMAN aggression, 
and the dogs biting gets Worse... which is distinctly possible - 
*Don;t U DARE escalate the punishment further! *

STOP while U are still relatively-intact; either consult a pro, 
or surrender the dog, immediately, to a shelter or rescue. 
Did i say to give-up the dog? YES - i did; so that no further behavioral damage is done.

unless of course, Ur entire intention is a trip to the E-R at the hospital - 
in which case, *be my guest!* (shrug) just be aware that by *inciting* a bite, 
U risk the dogs life - for U, its possible injury; for the Dog? potential euthanasia.

i already gave prior suggestions - they have not been taken; this is all i have to offer. 
--- terry


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## Dirky47 (Oct 20, 2009)

Have you consulted it to the Vet? What does they say?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Otherwise I'm sure somebody will be along and tell u to use a clicker lolp


No offence to the OP but this really made me laugh. Brilliant.


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## Vicki_journalist (Dec 30, 2009)

She is a rescue dog from Battersea and was a stray dog so no background on her. She is approx 10 months old and has passed her bronze kennel club test so is doing well in some areas. 

I do think it is moreso a lack of respect thing for me. She is not aggresive towards me and last night laid in front of me sleeping for hours like a baby, she does have her fab moments and training in class is going well but we have got to the point where when we leave she would play up and start jumping, tugging at my sleeve, biting and all because she didn't want to leave!

I am only 22 and am struggling with knowing how to deal with her as she is my first dog. 

I've had a blood test done on her and it is all clear so no health issues. 

She is a typical friendly lab to all other children, dogs, people etc and like I said it is not aggresion towards me it is her playing up. 

She was in Battersea for approx 1 month and there were no issues with her, she was descirbed as friendly, fun etc which she is but it is this 1 aspect I need to sort out. 

I have today contacted a behaviourist.

Terry I am NOT giving up on her, no way, I got her for her whole life and want her to be a happy, healthier dog.

Thanks everyone, 

Vicki


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## Vicki_journalist (Dec 30, 2009)

Also Terry (Leashed for life) I HAVE NOT done any of the things you said which would obviously scare a dog. She is a 64 pound labrador..I cannot 'dangle' her by her lead or collar and even if I could I WOULD NOT do that!!!!

I have lost it and hit her bum but it was my stupid girly hit and had no effect whatsoever.

Vicki


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Otherwise I'm sure somebody will be along and tell u to use a clicker lolp


funny enough, those who take a dig at clicker training have either never used this method, or have but do not know how to use it effectively/the intention behind it...

of course the clicker in itself will not stop a bad behaviour - clickers are just a marker for telling a dog it is doing something right... clickers do not stop unwanted behaviours on their own...the whole point is that they are used to train alternative behaviours. you dont need a clicker to do this either, just when you actually use them you realise how much quicker dogs pick things up with them as you can pinpoint the exact point at which they are doing the 'good/right' thing.

whether you use a clicker or not, loads of training needs to be going on here...shouting at the dog/scaring it etc etc MAY work...but then again it might make it escalate. or it MAY work initially but then the problem will come back as you have not addressed the actual issue, you have just scared the dog enough to stop it for a time...

OP i really think you need to use advice given to you in previous posts and stick with it - be consistent. you will not get results by keep chopping and changing to different methods.

any method you choose will not work overnight - you HAVE to be consistent and stick with it...there is no quick fix...sorry...


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## Vicki_journalist (Dec 30, 2009)

I am confused! I didn't turn up mose up to clicker training, I actually have a clicker but haven't used it regarding this problem. I am willing to try anything. 

Hutch 6 said "No offence to the OP but this really made me laugh. Brilliant"

What made you laugh? Did you mean the other person who gave some good advice and then said about someone will say about clicker training?

I feel all jumbled up with all of this. 

Maybe when she goes to jump I should say no sit, click and then treat. 

I just don't want her thinking ok so i jump, she says sit, i get a treat...yeaah must jjump up more often!

If I randomly clicked and treated during the walk would that help to avoid her linking the click to jumping?

Regards, 

Vicki


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

To clicker train you must first have a dog that is happy to spend time doing what you want to do and respect you. This dog wants to do what it wants when it wants and will protest if it doesn't get it's own way. 

This sounds like a case where the dog hass had to fend for itself, made it's own decisions for some time, learned to be very independant and rely on its own ability and nounce to survive but now someone is trying to make the decision for it which it doesn't agree with.

If the dog was off leash then it would show ignorance to requests and wander where it wants but becasue it is on leash it is showing disagreement and accepting what it believes to be a challenge by something that it has zero respect for. 

You can't clicker train respect, just nice looking physical shapes.

There is no need to get rid of the dog in any way shape or form as long as the owner is willing to work with it which they are. It's tough love this dog needs and it needs to start in the home.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> To clicker train you must first have a dog that is happy to spend time doing what you want to do and respect you. ...
> 
> ...You can't clicker train respect, just nice looking physical shapes.


exactly my point about not understanding the point of the clicker or what you can do with it until you use it properly or have seen it in action in modifying extreme behaviour cases - using the clicker to mark desired alternative actions/behaviours which are incompatible with the undesirable behaviour (so extinguising the undesirable one in the process)... not just 'physical shapes' 

and any dog can take to training with a marker (in this instance talking about a click from a clicker) - regardless of 'respect' as you introduce it by pairing it with something rewarding - something the DOG wants (not that you think it wants)...this could be praise, toys, games with you, treats, or even life rewards, i.e. access to what it wants like the garden or to be off-lead etc etc...

you can call it respect if you want but it sounds like a lack of basic manners - which is just down to a previous lack of training...to the dog, these 'manners' we want it to have are not natural to it - dogs have to be taught what humans find acceptable...and until they are taught, then they dont know how to act...they just try their luck when they are stopped from doing something they want to do...

therefore surely the answer to the problem is therefore just intensive training in the behaviours and actions that we find acceptable - perseverance with this and consistency - and patience to continue until the dog 'gets it'...


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Vicki_journalist said:


> I am confused! I didn't turn up mose up to clicker training, I actually have a clicker but haven't used it regarding this problem. I am willing to try anything.
> 
> Hutch 6 said "No offence to the OP but this really made me laugh. Brilliant"
> 
> ...


I laughed at the fact that no matter what the issue on here or how bad the issue is, everything can be cured by the sound of a piece of metal being pushed and released and nice tasty bribe.

To put things blunty and clearly, when you have asked your dog to do this or do that and it has gone into a rage with you then it is telling you to go f**k yourself.

When your dog isn't doing this and is "as good as an angel laying at your feet" then the dog is is happy to go along, get to do it's own thing etc but as soon as you want her not to walk up that path or doesn't want to go to your neighbour's house she says "F**K you!" and starts kicking and screaming.

Read this back to yourself:

"Sooo what did she do, she started jumping up tugging at my arm! This time I turned my back on her and held onto a fence (I must have looked like a right wally!) basically after a couple of minutes and after ripping my coat, she stopped on her own. 
She then tried it 3 more times and once again I ignored, turned back and held onto the nearest object! She was jumping and barking but each time it lasted for a shorter time. 
I would say sit firmly and she did it straight away. 
I then got her home, wanted to go to my negihbours house, (just past my door) and would she budge? no, she wanted to go home! So what did she do, she jumped and started tugging at my sleeve again until I gave up, so she won. 
The next morning she had the muzzle on and I took it off so she could say hi to another dog, they then started getting playful on the lead so I pulled her away and her excitement was re-directed towards my arm! The muzzle went back on.

In short, my dog has developed an attitude! *She can be the sweetest chilled out lab but then if she doesn't want to do something this is how she gets her message across. 
At the moment everytime she starts indoors she is met with a firm naughty and the muzzle goes on, (which calms her right down!) it stays on for a couple of mins then is off. *
Outdoors she is wearing the muzzle now until she learns to not jump up on me and tug."

There is no control over this dog even in the home. No rules, no consequence (other than being ignored whilst it gets on with what it wants. With a muzzle on it won't be able to bite but the intention will still be there) and absolutely no respect.

If I was staying at your house and you made me want to do something in your house which i didn't want to do and I started punching you in the arm would you turn your head and try to ignore it until I got rid of my frustration? Would you heck.

This dog loses it in a cloud of frustration and rage (it ripped the coat for god's sake, this is not mouthing this is bite, grip and rip) as it doesn't understand that the person is the one that makes the decisions, even in the bloody house. Instead the dog sees it as a challange to free will and no amount of clicking and treating is going to calm that down.

I would suggest that from now on the muzzle stays on as does the lead in the house. You going into the kitchen? So is the dog. You going out into the garden? So is the dog. If it already does this then you going intot he kitchen? Then the dog isn't. Going intot he garden then the dog isn't.

The dog isn't allowed to lie down anywhere except in it's bed. Why? Becasue you are in charge and it can only lie/sleep where you tell it to that's why.

This whole relationship needs to be stripped right back to the carbon that forms the bare bones and restarted to create a solid foundation. Once you can walk wherever you want, do whatever you want and the dog doesn't maul you, then you can start to begin to think about clicker training.


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

Vicki_journalist said:


> I am confused! I didn't turn up mose up to clicker training, I actually have a clicker but haven't used it regarding this problem. I am willing to try anything.
> 
> Hutch 6 said "No offence to the OP but this really made me laugh. Brilliant"
> 
> ...


Vicki, I wouldn't follow this thread any further - you're just going to become even more confused! 

You say that you've contacted a behaviourist? Good! Hopefully he/she will offer you some one to one sessions. If you have any more questions at that point, come back and ask.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

katiefranke said:


> exactly my point about not understanding the point of the clicker or what you can do with it until you use it properly or have seen it in action in modifying extreme behaviour cases - using the clicker to mark desired alternative actions/behaviours which are incompatible with the undesirable behaviour (so extinguising the undesirable one in the process)... not just 'physical shapes'
> 
> and any dog can take to training with a marker (in this instance talking about a click from a clicker) - regardless of 'respect' as you introduce it by pairing it with something rewarding - something the DOG wants (not that you think it wants)...this could be praise, toys, games with you, treats, or even life rewards, i.e. access to what it wants like the garden or to be off-lead etc etc...
> 
> ...


Ok if I don't understand about how a clicker can be used then perhaps you can give a step by step for getting a dogs attention when it just wants to do its' own thing becasue it has zero interest in what you or anyone else is doing. It has a nice comfortable bed and isn't even batting an eyelid at you and has zero interest in you as it doesn't really need you for anything. It already knows that if it doesn't want to do something it can get it's own way by snapping in an instant and mauling you until you either give in to it's whim or it runs out of steam.

Remember, if it doesn't show interest in being with you you can't force it or it will snap at you. If it doesn't want to do a particular task or request it will snap and maul you. You don't have anyone to peel the dog off your arm, you have never owned a dog before, you have no experience of clicker training so you need to engage the dog first in order to "load" the clicker and the dog has already shown that as long as the treats are flowing she's ok. Stop the treats and try to get her to do what you want and she snaps and throws a wobbler. Now I know how to cliucker train depsite what you think I just think there is a time and a place for it depending on the dog and how it likes to learn, what engages it etc. With my first dog clicker training has zero effect despite various attempts so not all dogs can be clicker trained I am sorry to say. I did clicker train my mate's dog on Sunday very well so i do what i am doing.

Right the dog is soundly sleeping in it's favourite spot on the lounge floor in the shade the other side of the room to its bed because it makes the rules.

Click away.

Bad manners? Bad manners is hovering around your plate or table when you are eating. Bad manners is jumping up to say hello and carrying on. Bad manners is pushing through narrow gaps without waiting. Taking the arm of your coat between the teeth, pulling on it, ripping it, using such force that you have to grab on to a structural support to keep yourself upright? That's assault. The dog knows behaviours as it showed in trainign class but becasue the owner wanted to leave and the dog had different ideas it kicked off. That's not bad manners that is zero respect, zero tollerance and going against authority.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Ok if I don't understand about how a clicker can be used then perhaps you can give a step by step for getting a dogs attention when it just wants to do its' own thing becasue it has zero interest in what you or anyone else is doing...


I am not going to even bother replying as you clearly don't get how it works (or rather from what you say it seems you don't WANT to get how it works? )

...I suggest you just search clicker training and look at some threads on here if you would be interested to read them and understand how this actually works. I will not be re-writing what has been written countless times...

Nobody said you just go straight in clicking - of course you have to work/play/be with your dog to engage them in the first place and make them want to be around you for it to have any effect...but nobody ever said you shouldnt do the 'engaging' if you want to use a clicker - they go hand in hand - clicker training or any training can do the engaging in the first place - why cant they both be done at the same time?

This says it better than I can about why it is so important to get your dog to WANT to do things...and its not about forcing them through showing them who is boss, its about making it rewarding for them (you can do it the other way, but why would anyone want to when it is much more fun for the dog to want to please?) http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/when-dogs-ask-why



> "Training is not about teaching dogs what we want them to do and enforcing them to comply. Successful training explains to dogs why they should comply...Relevancy teaches a dog why to do what you've asked. Done right it teaches the dog to WANT to do what you've requested, it builds motivation right in. And this is what makes for a reliable, well-trained dog."


Vicki, as inkdog says, see what the behaviourist says and then come let us know - and maybe have a read back over your other threads again to refresh...


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

But this is my exact point. You can not clicker train a dog that does not want to engage with you. You can't clicker train engagement as it has to be the dog's choice to pay attention to what you are doing to begin with hence the use of a treat a reward.

I can not teach someone something if they are not willing to focus on what I am doing.

You can train any dog to perform whatever behaviour you want but the dog has to be bothered with what you are doing first which is where this issue becomes unstuck as the dog doesn't take the slightest bit of interest. Instead it shuts down and then if you try anything else it gets extremely frustrated and lashes out.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

OP - just to clarify, the comment from me and hutch6 about clicker is said with a hint of sarcasm. Many people believe this is the way to "train" a dog not to be aggressive. Where as other members believe that you shouldn't need to use a clicker to get the dog to respect u and treat u with respect. 

Dog behavioirs will always have different approaches to correcting. It is up to u which road u take. Neither is wrong, they r just different. 

Getting your dog to respect u is not about physically laying into the dog, but about setting rules and boundries. It doesn't appear as though your dog knows what they are. Unfortunately, in my opinion u have a dog with a stronger will (or is more dominant) than u have. 

Good luck x

hutch6 - super posts x


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

spid said:


> he soiled himslef and ended up kicking poo in my face -


Im really sorry but I just roared with the laughter when I read this I have actually got tears rolling down my cheek :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

cutekiaro1 said:


> Im really sorry but I just roared with the laughter when I read this I have actually got tears rolling down my cheek :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I have to admit to bursting out laughing at that too. I am deeply sorry for what you had to endure. I have also laughed at how people have come forward and said what they have done as it gets frustrating and I can really relate to the frustration shown as I've shouted, left the room, left the house and kicked a dustbin to death before.

I suppose sometimes an unorthodox "word in their ear" does the job but like others have said, not a recommended method just in case they want the final word.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

cutekiaro1 said:


> Im really sorry but I just roared with the laughter when I read this I have actually got tears rolling down my cheek :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:





hutch6 said:


> I have to admit to bursting out laughing at that too.


Glad to have been of service! It wasn't funny at the time but I embarrass my son with the tale whenever I get the chance!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

spid said:


> Glad to have been of service! It wasn't funny at the time but I embarrass my son with the tale whenever I get the chance!


That's one to test potential future daughter-in-law material when they first come round to dinner. If they hang around knowing they could potentially end up with poo on their face they are a keeper 

Hope you aren't too badly psychologically scarred.


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Many people believe this is the way to "train" a dog not to be aggressive. Where as other members believe that you shouldn't need to use a clicker to get the dog to respect u and treat u with respect.


Just purely out of interest, what do you think the alternatives are in this scenario? Putting it another way: at the beginning of this thread you suggested that the OP should get back to basics; what, in your opinion, are 'the basics'?


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## Vicki_journalist (Dec 30, 2009)

I've just read everyone's recent postings so thank you. 

With Ruby it isn't a case of her showing no interest in me, in fact she shows maybe too much by 'spuervising' me wherever I am. She does respond to me during training and has passed her bronze test. 

I've taught her basic commands and when she is off the lead she stays near and comes to me straight away when I call her. 

She sits at open doors until I tell her she go come through and she comes when called in the house.

BUT as you all know I have a problem and it is lack of manners/respect from her. 

She does have rules, limitations and boundaries but is constantly pushing them. 

I do think she is trying to be top dog, she even brings her blanket out of her crate and humps it!, I tell her to stop and she will sit down and settle on it. I guess this is letting her get her own way as well though. 

I'm not giving up on this and will find a consistant way to teach her better, I felt like when I first got her we was doing so well, but for about 1 month now she has been the biggest pain. 

She doesn't just go for me in the house, she lets me brush her, clean her teeth etc, the only time she really goes ott in the house is when she is either being too exciteable and it sometimes becomes redirected at me. 

Thanks everyone, 

Vicki


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Vicki_journalist said:


> With Ruby it isn't a case of her showing no interest in me, in fact she shows maybe too much by 'spuervising' me wherever I am. She does respond to me during training and has passed her bronze test.


I have no idea what the bronze test consists of but congratulations on that.

So as I posted before she does follow you from room to room. What is your reaction when she comes over for affection and starts nudging your hand for a stroke?

Everything is done on HER terms. She gets to follow you about (could be she is interested in what you are doing but could be that she doesn't want you out of her sight but it is definitely not becasue she is worried without you there) and this - "I do think she is trying to be top dog, she even brings her blanket out of her crate and humps it!, I tell her to stop and she will sit down and settle on it. I guess this is letting her get her own way as well though." - just proves everything I said previously. You ask to stop and she doesn't. You probably ask her to get back in her bed and I bet she doesn;t so after trying and not wanting to get get physical by leading her to her bed she gets her own way and gets to sleep where she wants etc.



Vicki_journalist said:


> I've taught her basic commands and when she is off the lead she stays near and comes to me straight away when I call her.


But you posted she ran off from you and refused to come until a stranger grabbed her.



Vicki_journalist said:


> She sits at open doors until I tell her she go come through and she comes when called in the house.


Why can't she "Sit" - "Stay" in a room while you wander about your own home without her monitoring your every move to ensure you are playing by her rules? If you get up to leave a room to go for a pee or whatever it is on your terms. You can do whatever you like on your own in your home as it is your home, your den, your domain.



Vicki_journalist said:


> She does have rules, limitations and boundaries but is constantly pushing them.


How many times have you tried to get her to do something and and she hasn;t so you have left the rule unconsequencial? Like the bedding thing.



Vicki_journalist said:


> I'm not giving up on this and will find a consistant way to teach her better, I felt like when I first got her we was doing so well, but for about 1 month now she has been the biggest pain.


Because you were clear on your rules but as she has become more and more stubborn the rules have become weaker and weaker until she will do things on her terms and you will bow to this. She is not top dog. You have just demoted yourself lower than she is. If you make a rule, stick to it. Don't confuse the dog or give them ground. Not only does it confuse the dog but it also teaches them that they can do "this" and "that" doesn't apply anymore. Give them inch and they take a yard. DOn;t give them an inch and they won't ask for it.
Do you have a clear set of rules now that you could write down without thinking about thinking about them? You need to have thiese in your head, on your fridge, on the mantlepiece and ont he back of the bathroom door so you NEVER forget what the limitations are.



Vicki_journalist said:


> She doesn't just go for me in the house, she lets me brush her, clean her teeth etc, the only time she really goes ott in the house is when she is either being too exciteable and it sometimes becomes redirected at me.


Because it is all focussed on her and she gets the bnenefit from it all.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> To clicker train *you must first have a dog that is happy to spend time doing what you want to do* and *respect you.*


and U base this statement, hutch, on Ur many, many years of experience, using a clicker to train?  
that in order to train with a clicker, the dog MUST prior to the clickers use, be *happy* _to do what U, the handler or trainer, 
want to do - _ rather than what the Dog wants to do, given their own preference?

_*News Flash: *_ 
No Dog WANTS automatically to do What WE humans want the dog to do - dogs, like every living creature on Earth, 
Want * To * Do * What * They * Want * To * Do. 
in puppies, this is play, explore, and learn about their world; eat, chew things, interact with sibs + other friendly dogs, sleep when tired, wake when refreshed, etc. 
when pups leave the nest + start active-play, off the floor and on their legs (at approx 5-wks age), it generally is only a couple of weeks until they are dispersed - to buyers homes or adopted via shelters.

WE - their human-families - immediately start putting limits on puppy behaviors: chewing the wrong things, which for the poor pup is virtually *everything* in their new-world; voiding in the wrong-place, AGAIN practically *everywhere is wrong*; Life for a new-pup is not all fun + frolic, theres a whole sh*tload of frustration.

_dogs have to LEARN to comply with human-wishes - and we need to Teach this skill to them, not whack them for not AUTOMATICALLY deferring, falling to their canine-knees to worship every 2-legged human, groveling + timidly licking our boot-toes. _



hutch6 said:


> _ *This dog wants to do what [she] wants when [she] wants* and will protest if [she] doesn't get [her] own way. _


and THIS dog is different from every other dog on Earth... 
or for that matter, every infant ex-utero up until child aged approximately 8-YO, when the child has learned to defer their own desires, and is fairly good about complying with parents and other authority-figures - Teachers, Police, Library staff, etc? 
no, she is not - she is JUST Like them - she has wants + needs; we must fulfill her needs, and bear her WANTS in mind. 
we can then use what she WANTS to get her to do what We Want - 
we get what we want? She gets what she wants.

this is Quid Pro Puo - not *do it, bitch, or i;ll beat the snot outta ya.*

this reference, BTW, does Not have to do with *hutch* - 
it has to do with an entirely-different APO / Average Pet-Owner, who said, 
when her ShihTzu adoptee BIT her when she tried to take and i QUOTE a particularly-savory bone UNquote from him, and he understandably, growled at her stiffened and tried to escape her, she GRABBED the bone + wrenched it from his mouth - whereupon he very predictably + IMO *deservedly*, Bit her - *with good bite inhibition, there was only a scratch - * and she further said, 
QUOTE - i reacted primally and beat the snot out of him UNquote. 
for further details, please see the Yahoo-Group, DogBehaviorScience. 


hutch6 said:


> If the dog was off leash then [she] would show ignorance to requests and wander where [she] wants but *becasue [she] is on leash [she] is showing disagreement and accepting what it believes to be a challenge by something that it has zero respect for. *


i do not see this as DISSING, hutch - 
from the description, it sounds like re-directed over-arousal, not CHALLENGING * AUTHORITY. dogs are not out to overthrow Parliament, sack Windsor Castle, and establish a k9-anarchy. 


hutch6 said:


> You can't clicker train respect, just nice looking physical shapes.


no - U clicker-train COMPLIANCE, which is precisely what the OP is seeking. 
U can click-train CALM, another very desirable overall foundation-behavior.



hutch6 said:


> *It's tough love this dog needs* and it needs to start in the home.


good idea - just take a 2x4 to the dogs head + shoulders - By gum, that;ll sort her out! :confused1: right? 
*this BTW is hyperbole - 
deliberately exaggerating to make a point - it is NOT a suggestion, and i am NOT saying that *hutch suggested it! 
just to be clear... *

the OWNER has already stated she is consulting a (hopefully credentialed and even more hopefully, more enlightened) professional.

i am looking forward to hearing of the dogs progress - Without *tough love*. 
have a nice day  
--- terry


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

I echo whoever suggested you consult a behaviourist.

TBH, whether people choose to use clickers or not, the second they start mentioning "respect" and "bribes" they immediately demonstrate their lack of understanding of learning theory, and their opinions can pretty much be discounted 

It is perfectly possible to teach all sorts of dogs to do all sorts of things, or to STOP doing all sorts of things, with a clicker - if you know what you're doing


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Terry,

Please can you pointout exactly where I have mentioned using anything physical towards the dog? 

Can you also explain to the viewers how a higher state of arousal has occured when the owner wanted to go one way and the dog wanted to go another but when the owner applied a bit of pressure or tried to motivate the dog it began to what can only described as maul the owner?

Don't even try and bring me up on the clicker training crap as you first need to work out what motivates this dog and as far I can tell from what I have read the owner doesn't know this.

Can you also point out where I have stated the dog wants to take over the world and maybe highlight in bold where I have asked the owner if they are clear with the house rules so then at least the dog can have an idea?

Perhaps you want to highlight where you told the owner to give up, get rid of the dog and take it back to the rescue?

Don't patronise me with the usual holier than thou stuff. Everyone would like to do what they want and so would everything but in life there are rules and those rules have consequences if not abided by, not necessarily in the way people misinterpret "consequence".

I guess because I laughed at the clicker comment, don't conform to the thinking that clicker training is the answer to eveything in the canine world and won't bow down to it all you need to single me out. 

Missing you already.

Hutch.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> TBH, whether people choose to use clickers or not, the second they start mentioning "respect" and "bribes" they immediately demonstrate their lack of understanding of learning theory, and their opinions can pretty much be discounted


Was this in anyway directed at moi?


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Was this in anyway directed at moi?


It was directed at anyone who laughs at/pooh poohs clicker training without really having much experience of it.

If you've tried it and found you weren't very good at it - fine (that's the generic "you" btw Hutch - not you personally). It does require fairly good timing and, particularly with entrenched behaviour problems, is isn't always the quick fix that some people tend to like.

That said - in the right hands, with a good trainer who is switched on enough to identify and use whatever motivates the dog most, a clicker CAN seem to work miracles at times.

Unless of course the likes of Jean Donaldson, Dr Yin et al are lying about it's efficacy in changing behaviour. And of course the many top trainers who use it to teach exercises for competition. They're probably lying too.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i did not say clicker is THE answer, hutch - 
only that dogs need to *learn* compliance, it is not built-in. 

given the dogs exemplary behavior in other circs (she did get her Bronze in the KC-scheme) i think a real live person needs to be consulted - 
and yes, i do think its over-arousal, redirected to the owner. 

Labs + other retriever-breeds are often mouthy + oral - that does Not Mean i condone biting or mouthing, it means that certain un-desirable traits come along with a desire to fetch, which has been cultivated in these breeds. 

there are lots of ways to get to compliant dog - *punishment* in the form of corrections to an over-aroused dog who is already re-directing apparent frustration by biting, will most likely Not be effective. 

IOW - the dog is reacting to whatever this is (collar pressure? seeing another dog? other stim? we do not know) and biting; INCREASING collar-pressure, being more insistent about ignoring X and come with me, is not likely to calm the situation - the dog will most-likely, bite harder. 

so we need another option, besides Do It Harder, or go from tag-collar to prong, or _____ - whatever the tough-love prescription might be. 

IMO we need to *interrupt* the ramp-up to the offending behavior, *before* it gets to the biting stage - but we cannot IMO offer concrete suggs over the Net, on such a complex behavior in what is ordinarily, a well-behaved dog. 

all my best, 
--- terry 

BTW - whacking the dog with a hunk of lumber is obviously *facetious* - 
i am not suggesting that anyone do so, NOR implying that U, hutch, TOLD anyone to do so.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> Please can you point out exactly where I have mentioned using anything physical towards the dog?


i did not state, and did not intend to *suggest* that You, hutch, 
suggested *get physical*.

i have added a specific disclaimer stating that neither i, nor U, are suggesting this - 
my statement was hyperbolic, and not a quote from U, a suggestion from me, or anything resembling a real-life Good Idea - its a deliberate exaggeration.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Yeah clicker training isn't for everyone and every dog as I keep mentioning.

I used clicker training on my mate's 9month old labrador on Sunday who has "ZERO" manners and training and was staying at mine with my dogs. Recall took about 5mins, "down" took about 10mins and "fetch" without clicker training took about 10mins. Try it on my dogs? No magic there. Much prefer the shepherding methods. 

Yet again. No one method works for everyone and every dog.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Just my two pence....



> She doesn't just go for me in the house, she lets me brush her, clean her teeth etc, the only time she really goes ott in the house is when she is either being too exciteable and it sometimes becomes redirected at me.


I think you have answered your own questions here - the dog is usually very tolerent, well behaved and obedient - as evidenced by the fact you can do anything with her (grooming and teeth) and your bronze award.

If this was a "lack of respect" or "dominance" or whatever you want to call it issue, then she would NOT be so great the majority of the time.

You said it yourself - the problem occurs when she gets over-aroused. My first thought would be try to determine the trigger then work to reduce her reactivity levels. Various other things like teaching alternative behaviours, rewarding voluntary good behaviour etc would also benefit.

Using positive reinforcement (whether or not you use a clicker) is a very effective way of teaching dogs to be calm, teaching those aforementioned alternative behaviours etc.

As for the recommendations that you need to start with tough love in the home - quite frankly if your stopping the dog following you around and removing her bedding uddenly stop this behaviour, then I will eat my hat! Seriously....



> I do think she is trying to be top dog, she even brings her blanket out of her crate and humps it!,


This cracked me up - you think your dog is trying to be dominant because she humps her blanket? Dogs are not that stupid - you can't "dominate" an inanimate object. The whole idea is ludicrous. Some dogs like to hump. Male or female, neutered or entire. My last bichon bitch (spayed) used to hump cushions when she got overexcited. No big deal. Certainly not an indication that your dog is trying to take over the world - one blankie at a time! (Sorry, this really did make me laugh)

I agree with most of the others - get this sorted with a decent behaviourist. Good luck!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

LOL @ the dog taking over the world one blankie at a time! 

Humping is generally an arousal thing - arousal in general I mean, not necessarily sexual. My two girls hump each other at times when they're having a "funny five minutes". Nothing to do with dominance or randiness.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> i did not state, and did not intend to *suggest* that You, hutch,
> suggested *get physical*.
> 
> i have added a specific disclaimer stating that neither i, nor U, are suggesting this -
> ...


Sorry Terry but it has taken you over an hour to put that on. You also make reference to :

this is Quid Pro Puo - not do it, bitch, or i;ll beat the snot outta ya.

That also will require a disclaimer.

Tough love in my eyes is not allowing a dog to get away with stuff. For example - if the dog is to sleep in it's bed and it pull sit's blanket out of the bed, humps it, refuses to follow the command of "Bed" and then settles down on the blanket in the middle of the lounge away from it's bed and you, as the owner accept that the dog won't move or looks too comfy to move then TOUGH. Persist the rule and ensure that the dog gets in it's bed even if it means you have to go and attach a lead and walk it to the bed. If it gets up to move again "Hey. Bed!" and actually follow through on your rules rather than going "Awwwwwww. Just this once then."

If you can't control a dog in your home then what chance have you outside?

From your opening statement of quoting me on clicker training and then patronising me about what it is, how it works , yadda yadda I'd say you did mention clicker training.

I mentioned forgetting about clicker trainign as this dog only shows compliance when it suits and when it doesn't it doesn't mouth it bites, pulls and rips.

I know what labs are bred and selected for I am not completely ignorant when it comes to dogs.

If the higher state of arosal is directed at the owner then why doesn't mine do that when he gets all worked up or my other one, or my mate's two labs or my other mate's three spaniels or my cousin's rottie and STBx? Put it in whatever "Buzz words" you ant but this dog has zero respect for the owner, the rules and has no consequences to deal with. I am so sorry for the OP and do not worry, you will have the dream dog you want with her. I am being brutally honest here becasue I have been misquted and told in a round about way I have no idea what I am on about. This has put me in a higher state of arosal and...clcik-click.... sorry gotta go.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> Sorry Terry but it has taken you over an hour to put that on. You also make reference to :
> 
> this is Quid Pro Puo - not do it, bitch, or i;ll beat the snot outta ya.


this is Quid Pro Puo - not *do it, bitch, or i;ll beat the snot outta ya.*

this reference, BTW, does Not have to do with *hutch* - 
it has to do with an entirely-different APO / Average Pet-Owner, who said, 
when her ShihTzu adoptee BIT her when she tried to take and i QUOTE a particularly-savory bone UNquote from him, and he understandably, growled at her stiffened and tried to escape her, she GRABBED the bone + wrenched it from his mouth - whereupon he very predictably + IMO *deservedly*, Bit her - *with good bite inhibition, there was only a scratch - * and she further said, QUOTE - i reacted primally and beat the snot out of him UNquote. 
for further details, please see the Yahoo-Group, DogBehaviorScience.

if U like, i will get the message-number for U. (gone, re-appears) Message #28518 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> If you can't control a dog in your home then what chance have you outside?


hey, hutch - 
from the owners prior statements, she often has excellent compliance Outside her home - 
since the dog did (sorry, i know its reiterating) get her Bronze, which was in a training class or facility, not her home.

the dog is often VERY-well behaved - in more than one context - 
she is good in the house (humping a blankie is not disobedience), most of the time; she is VERY compliant in classes; 
which is what makes me think that in-person is needed, not remote suggestions.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Inkdog said:


> Just purely out of interest, what do you think the alternatives are in this scenario? Putting it another way: at the beginning of this thread you suggested that the OP should get back to basics; what, in your opinion, are 'the basics'?


Back to basics means treating the dog as an animal and not as a pampered pet.

When you have achieved the goal of "leadership" or "pack leader", which ever term you prefer, then you can allow the dog more freedom.

Until the dog recognises the human as pack leader, it is a case of the dog having to work for everything.

i.e walks - should be lead walks with the dog doing what YOU want, not running around chasing rabbits.
affection - given when YOU want, not when the dog approaches you
Dinner - the dog should sit and wait patiently, maybe be sat or told to lie down etc
human privellages - should not be on the sofa/bed etc until the dog learns that he is BOTTOM of the pack.

That is what I mean by going back to basics.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Training a dog to "sit, stay, heel" when it gets a reward does not necessarily mean that it is not "dominant". If you gave me a glass of wine everytime, or everyother time, I did something right, I would do what you wanted! *(I'm a sucker for a glass of Pinot!)

Doesn't mean I respect you.....


Respect comes from within, it is earnt. 

Before you all start on the dominance theory and dogs "taking over the world" Not one post has mentioned this or has advised any adversive methods.

But because we don't think that clicker = respect, we are wrong?


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Nobody said the clicker = respect.

I think the problem is that many of us think that it is purely about *training the dog to understand what is expected...vs making the dog respect you.*

The dog is not acting up through lack of respect... it is acting up because it has been allowed to get away with doing whatever it wants and has not been taught any differently...therefore, the clicker is a fun way to get your dog interested in you...it can also teach calm behaviours and lower reactivity/arousal etc when used at a more advanced level...

In my opinion, doing the things you say above is not gaining respect - surely that is a human concept anyway? It is simply teaching the dog how to act and teaching it what you expect of it (which is what we are saying anyway, just using the clicker as a tool to aid this)...so I don't see why using a clicker to mark the correct behaviour in the scenarios you mention above would not be useful as a training tool to tell the dog when it has done right? *Do you not say 'good boy' or 'good girl' to a dog who does something right? This is exactly the same as clicker training...it just 'marks' the correct behaviour, except a clicker can be much more precise and therefore usually achieve quicker and better results...*

This says it better than I can about why it is so important to get your dog to WANT to do things...not force them through showing them who is boss, its about making it rewarding for them (you can do it the other way, but why would anyone want to when it is much more fun for the dog to want to please?) When Dogs Ask Why | Dog Star Daily



> "Training is not about teaching dogs what we want them to do and enforcing them to comply. Successful training explains to dogs why they should comply...Relevancy teaches a dog why to do what you've asked. *Done right it teaches the dog to WANT to do what you've requested, it builds motivation right in.* And this is what makes for a reliable, well-trained dog."


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Vicki I hope you find the article above and this one below of use - just in case you were in any doubt as to why she is misbehaving...

I just found this one today, which actually puts across pretty much what most of us are trying to say here:

Change Your Perspective And Train Your Dog | Dog Star Daily

Some pertinent points from it...



> "...Blaming the dog for lack of communication skills or not understanding human language or desires is scape-goating and also gives a supposedly lesser creature (according to that whole "he doesn't respect" me malarkey) a heck of a lot of power and responsibility. *It's also quite egotistical of us humans to think that a dog should respect us simply because we're human....*
> 
> ...Looking at, and *dealing with, your dog from an adversarial perspective sets both of you up for failure*. From this perspective every perceived transgression is an insult....
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

I just wonder how another dog would deal with being playfully bullied?
I know mine would turn and tell the other dog off by making himself look big and growling loudly.
Surely, this is what dogs understand as being put in their place.
No violence involved, but a lot of bluff and noise


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

rona said:


> I just wonder how another dog would deal with being playfully bullied?
> ...Surely, this is what dogs understand as being put in their place.
> No violence involved, but a lot of bluff and noise


Yes you are right about dog-dog interactions...but then the dog knows humans are not dogs and interacts with them differently...

I have lost my temper and shouted at maggie before, but this only served to stop her doing the thing she was doing in that instance...she still went and did it again at a later date until I taught her what I wanted her to do more thoroughly... I dont think this even 'put her in her place' - it just served as a distraction to stop her doing what she was doing...

I know you are not advocating physically punishing, its just the major problem with shouting/being THAT confrontational with the dog in this situation is that this sounds like it is being caused by over-arousal...which I think Vicki has said too - so then shouting may actually intensify arousal in the dog and so the dog could bite even harder!  See L4Ls posts earlier as I think she talks about this...


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

A Man Among Wolves | Video | | National Geographic Channel
He lives and behaves like them - howling, licking and snarling -

Living with Gorillas - Crime Library on truTV.com
She copied their movements and gestures, instinctively understanding this form of communication could be a bridge

I can't really understand the complete reasoning behind the fact that people can't in some circumstances, communicate with dogs on their level.
Quite eminent biologists, including to a certain extent David Attenborough 
have managed to either integrate or be accepted by various mammals by mimicking thier behaviour.
Surely the dog, being a highly intelligent being, not be able to pick up on signals given by their owner, who they know well? Also wouldn't an owner be able to read their own dog to know what would work?
This obviously doesn't apply to new rescue dogs.


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## Vicki_journalist (Dec 30, 2009)

Good morning to everyone,

After reading the latest post (I feel I've caused some controversary!!) I just wanted to let you know I took Ruby out last night with my boyfriend, I held the lead the whole time and she did not jump up and was well behaved apart from pulling a bit at some points.

I am also being firmer (but fair) with her and last night when in the house and she got over excited I just said nooooo firmly (instead on a short sharp noooo) and she got the point and let go. This happened a couple of times.

I have a long way to go but do feel positive. Tomorrow morning I am going on a walk with a lady who has an older rescue dog, hopefully it be a positive experience and teach Ruby a few manners. 

The thing that is stressing me out the most is that it is only recently I have started having to worry about her playing up when out, I haven't ever treated her as a pampered pet, she has known from day1 that she is not allowed on the couch, has her own bed and does not go upstairs etc

BUT like I've said before when she has being naughty she pushes this, jumps on the couch, grabs the cushion, runs up stairs etc.

I also don't let her do her own thing on a walk. She goes forward not side to side!!

Ooh by the way I didn't mean I thought she was trying to be top dog by humping her blanket! I phrased it badly and the replies did make me laugh...taking over the world.

I have yet to hear back from the behaviourist. I think he is good as he was a police dog handler for 20 years and has lots of qualifications it seems. 

I already feel like my firmer, confident approach is making a difference in her but like I said I am under no illusion it will take time and I always knew that she has to learn what is expected of her, I can't just expect it. 

I just never thought a labrador would bite my arms :-( I feel like any other problem could be dealt with like nervousness, dog aggresion etc but this is a different issue that doesn't seem to crop up much. 

It is difficult as well because we could be walking down a quiet road, no distractions and all of a sudden, its boom, lets play up time. 

Anyway thank you for everyone for taking time out for the advice and links, it has all been interesting and given me some things to think about. 

Have a nice day everyone, 

Vicki


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

Not controversy, conversation, it's all good :thumbup:

Glad you are going forward, I'm sure you will get there.
Like I said before, Alfie was exactly the same for quite a long time.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

People often confuse a "firm" approach with a physical one.

I took a firm approach and started treating Oscar more like a dog when we had guarding issues (under the advice of a trainer i respected). We no longer have this issue and the behaviour stopped pretty much straight away which it needed to because had it continued he could very easily have become another statistic with zero hope of being re homed 

I agree with a back to basics approach as this reinforces that if they do as they are asked life is better. 

I am sure clicker training is amazing but with a pup, 4 kids a double buggy on our trips out the only place left to hold the clicker would have been up my... well you get what i am saying 

The only way to go with aggression/behavioural issues is to a behaviourist or trainer whose methods you respect as you cannot advise on this stuff over the net. IMO  The dog needs to be observed and the owner needs to be shown how to implement any methods in the flesh because the consequences of them getting it wrong are too serious.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

I never saw Alfie's problem as aggression, he hasn't got it in him


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> I can't really understand the complete reasoning behind the fact that people can't in some circumstances, communicate with dogs on their level.


hey, rona! :--) 
to a degree, yes, we can - 
i have even used body-language taken from dogs in the group-setting of a shelter kennel to help quiet the [insane! and painfully loud] barking, bouncing off the concrete floor, block-walls + concrete-ceiling, ouch.

but there ARE things dogs do, IMO + IME, that we cannot mimic - 
i can yawn, laugh-pant, smile-squint, offer non-threat body-parl... 
but i CANNOT air-snap in another dogs face, IMO and i have zero intention of ever trying it out. 
i think that sort of thing is ridiculously exaggerated, and my grabbing a dogs collar or scruff to *reprimand* them 
has far too-much potential for bad after-effects - ducking from hands, snapping at hands, fear of restraint - 
to be worth the attempt. 
(besides as i have said before - i have yet to see any dog *scruff* another dog to punish them. 
bite yes; growl-bark? sure! air-snap, hard-stare, etc; yes, yes, yes. 
but the only dogs that i have seen literally SCRUFF another dog + lift them have been dams moving neonates.)

among the easy-to-adopt dog-signals for humans: 
* yawns 
* blinks 
* look-aways [head turns with re-directed gaze... Oh, Look At That, :lol: ...] 
* quiet breathing / long sighs 
* happy pants or laugh-pants (raspier, more irregular, slightly louder) 
* smiles 
* soft eyes 
* angled stance 
* arcing approach 
and more that are non-threat, reassuring or friendly.

*UNLESS U know the dog* -- Ur dog - not some random dog in a street or shelter! 
*i would NOT recommend trying *
* hard stares - can trigger a bite 
* growls - ditto

* frontal + vertical body-language to a threatening dog 
(standing tall, shoulders back, head high, ESPECIALLY with eyes-on-eyes) 
its a great way to convert a guarding-display into full-on threats or bites

*pretending* we can mimic dog-bites as corrections with bitey-hands, pokes, etc, IMO only exacerbates any aggro 
or reactivity - if we want _calm_, IMO + IME we need to *be calm. *
adding human-aggro, confrontation or aggravation is IME not helpful.  in fact, its been counterproductive.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

But Terry, I have deflected full on attacks to Alfie by standing tall staring at the offending dog and shouting very loud


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> ...I have deflected full on attacks to Alfie by standing tall staring at the offending dog and shouting very loud


* thats an emergency - 
i have snap-kicked attacking dogs who were BITING a dog in the ribs, with force, which is also a RISK - such a dog is extremely aroused, and MAY * VERY * WELL turn to attack Me. 
i am working on 2 things: i know anatomy, and i am aiming to greenstick fracture a rib - an extremely painful, non-lethal injury. 
most dogs lose their interest in fighting when breathing hurts, and they leave.

*i do NOT advise pet-owners to do things that, if not WELL-done, can send them to the hospital. 
hence i am always cautious in what i suggest. *

>>> i can risk my OWN safety - after decades handling dogs, frankly there are things that i can get away with that a pet-owner, teenager, kid, novice, CANNOT - and i would be extremely foolhardy to suggest them to a neophyte. <<<

i cannot risk someone elses safety with risky suggestions; timing, physical fitness of the person, their BALANCE... what if they hit the dog and FELL? being on the ground with a really angry dog is extreme risk.

so, as U have seen, that can work - 
it can also tip the rush (which may be over-arousal vs an actual attack, or a teen-thug rushing straight in to greet rudely vs a polite approach) into an assault on U.

the higher the dogs arousal (in any context) the less predictable behavior becomes, and the greater the chance of unpredictable violence or redirected aggro.

if a dog jumped all over a dog i was handling, and i reacted to that by shouting, staring + confrontation, i COULD make a teen-dog who was just being an ignorant-thug ** bite me ** OR ** bite the dog i am handling **.

i try not to make arousal higher, and avoid ADDING human-aggro to the circs... 
if i can; a genuine all-out threat is wildly variable, i have called out SIT!  in a cheerful voice at a full-on charging dog, hackled-up, growling, ears forward, teeth showing... 
and had them slow down, when i say GOOD SIT!  and toss treats... and lo and behold, the dog stands down, and often Sits before the goodies hit the ground. 
while the erstwhile Killer is scarfing up goodies, we walk briskly + quietly away...

ya use what ya got, in the moment. 
ADDING aggro or confrontation is (or should be IMO) a last-ditch option, AFTER U have done anything else possible to reduce the aggro. 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

rona said:


> But Terry, I have deflected full on attacks to Alfie by standing tall staring at the offending dog and shouting very loud


Me too  I have prevented several situations from escalating by standing between them forcefully with a good foot stamp and saying NO to the offending dog, and my own grumble beggar occassionally. These situations escalate way too quickly for alternative methods IMO 

I just pray my hunters give me some protection if i ever get bitten :lol:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

As always, there are many ways to deal with a dog.

Potentially confronting a dominant/aggressive/nervous dog, could certainly back fire. But if the dog see's you as more powerful/stronger/ more dominant, then it will back down.

I do not advocate hurting a dog, but sometimes it is effective to physically stand up to one.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> * thats an emergency -
> i have snap-kicked attacking dogs who were BITING a dog in the ribs, with force, which is also a RISK - such a dog is extremely aroused, and MAY * VERY * WELL turn to attack Me.
> i am working on 2 things: i know anatomy, and i am aiming to greenstick fracture a rib - an extremely painful, non-lethal injury.
> most dogs lose their interest in fighting when breathing hurts, and they leave.
> ...


I can't believe that you have admitted to this after telling many fairly experienced dog handlers that the methods that they have used to very good effect over DECADES were wrong, just because it had caused slight discomfort to the dog for a minimum of time


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> I can't believe that you have admitted to this after telling many fairly experienced dog handlers that the methods that they have used to very good effect over DECADES were wrong, just because it had caused slight discomfort to the dog for a minimum of time


_*excuse me? *_ is this a wind-up? 

ABOVE i was talking about the UNplanned emergencies - 
and *very specifically* talking about a dog who is currently VIOLENTLY attacking, and intervening to stop the potential mauling of the victim.

that has sod-all to do IMO with *training* and tools for Training.

the other subject is TRAINING - training is *planned* not a crisis; 
training does NOT require prongs, kicks, chokes, etc - but TRAINING does not involve one dog attempting to seriously injure another either.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I would say preventing my dog from biting my kids was a crisis and i never kicked him in the ribs yet i was wrong to tell him off  maybe it's about perception of a situation


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> _*excuse me? *_ is this a wind-up?
> 
> ABOVE i was talking about the UNplanned emergencies -
> and *very specifically* talking about a dog who is currently VIOLENTLY attacking, and intervening to stop the potential mauling of the victim.
> ...


I hardly ever discuss training as i feel I am not experienced enough, I only give examples of what has worked for me.
But I do like to question and clear any misconceptions that may arise.
If you feel threatened by that or feel that I am winding you up then I'm sorry, but that is more to do with your own slant on things and not my posts.
You will find I do this on all sections of the forum


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## TobyK9 (Feb 5, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I am sure clicker training is amazing but with a pup, 4 kids a double buggy on our trips out the only place left to hold the clicker would have been up my... well you get what i am saying


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

just to reassure U, rona - 
this has happened THREE times in over TWENTY-FIVE years. 

i have wheelbarrowed fighting dogs to separate them 4 or 5 times as often - and that BTW is another last-resort, as it has considerable risk of the person - which would be ME - being bitten badly. 
wheelbarrowing also requires someone else Be There to help - as U cannot open a door, crate or gate with the hindleg of a highly-roused struggling dog in either hand.  

luckily, actual fights are rare - scuffles are not all that common, and there are very few injuries from a scrap other than a bruise or small puncture, maybe a nicked ear. 
dogs DO * THEIR * BEST to avoid actual fights, and i do the same. 
- t


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> just to reassure U, rona -
> this has happened THREE times in over TWENTY-FIVE years.
> 
> i have wheelbarrowed fighting dogs to separate them 4 or 5 times as often - and that BTW is another last-resort, as it has considerable risk of the person - which would be ME - being bitten badly.
> ...


Just to inform you Terry 
I have only ever scruffed twice in my 35 years of dog ownership


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I would say preventing my dog from biting my kids was a crisis and i never kicked him in the ribs yet i was wrong to tell him off  maybe it's about perception of a situation


*dogs that U do Not Know*? and specifically include the phrase, *Ur dog*? 
when i was talked about avoiding the use of confrontational body-language?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> *dogs that U do Not Know*? and specifically include the phrase, *Ur dog*?
> when i was talked about avoiding the use of confrontational body-language?


I was not referring to that post but previous advice that has been given out


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I was not referring to that post but previous advice that has been given out


post #54  


> UNLESS U know the dog -- Ur dog - not some random dog in a street or shelter!
> i would NOT recommend trying
> * hard stares - can trigger a bite
> * growls - ditto
> ...


rona asked about using dog-body-language to communicate with dogs - 
and that is what i was discussing. 
a dog who is fearful / threatens or aroused / assaults (which may be jumping-up) is not the same as a dog who actually attacks - 
oneself, another person, or a dog.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

I'm Aware of that.
What's your point.
I thought conversation developed from a single point normally. This is what this forum is about surely, conversation and individual opinions?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> post #54
> 
> rona asked about using dog-body-language to communicate with dogs -
> and that is what i was discussing.
> ...


As i said I was not referring to that post but the advice given by you in general regards "punishing" a dog for unacceptable behaviour. Oscars bites were as a result of resource guarding which i believe you do not advise a "firm" approach with.

I was shocked to see the post from you about kicking the dog given the theme of your posts on the forum in general, it would suggest that you do believe in physical intervention where YOU deem it appropriate. I am making the point that people have different perceptions of when it is appropriate to use a physical intervention.


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

I sometimes think we forget dogs are actually living breathing animals with their own mind and character. Surely we aim to show them through kind methods what is acceptable in human society, but I do believe that to some degree (thankfully) dogs have their own character. Like twins - both raised by the same parents in the same environment at the beginning of their lives - yet they are not identical characters later in life/
Back to dogs. I will admit; I have hit, scruffed, shouted at repeatedly, closed in a dark room. Very rarely, some of these have happened only once, and with exception of shouting, the other have happened no more than 2-3 times. I am a living breathing creature too and I get frustrated. I lose my temper. I may be in a bad mood about something else and take it out on the dog as my patience is running low. I am not proud of ANY of the abovementioned. If I could undo these incidents, I would.

For the most part (99.9999%) I use only positive training (positive reinforcement and negative punishment). However, I cannot guarantee this will give me the "perfect dog". Things can happen out of my control, e.g. my dog gets attacked and becomes fearful and aggressive of other dogs. Some other person that interacts with my dog may create an undesirbale habit/behaviour, e.g. jumping up when greeting. With training, these behaviours can be to some degree modified/corrected.

I think it is an illusion to believe that we have that much control over every little thing that happens in our dogs lives that we can shape their behaviour 100%. They are not computer programs. There are variables out of our control.

And dogs have COevolved with humans fo rover 100, 000 years. I do not believe back then we knew about clicker training. I am not ANTI clicker training. My point is that we can greatly influence a dog's behaviour through patience, consistency, perseverence... but through more tha one method.

And a last point. I can guarantee that there is a dog out there that has been abused, treated aggressively, starved etc, that is perfectly social and non aggressive...and in the same way there is a pampered family pet treated as the books says, with issues.
Obviously, this is the exeption rather than the rule. 

So my point is....if we want guaranteed methods and guaranteed results we shouldnt own dogs. We are not in a position to condemn another owner (unless there is obvious cruelty) because of their choice of how to handle their dog...often the lack of good results is not ONLY because if the training methods used. DOgs are allowed to have their weaknesses and their quircks. I am 100% for training dogs and feel thsi makes for a much better balanced and happier pet. But a dog is not "virtual pet", it is a real one -with it's OWN character.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

Wow Nellybelly
I didn't know you had it in you.
Brilliant post :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I was shocked to see the post from you about kicking the dog given the theme of your posts on the forum in general, it would suggest that you do believe in physical intervention where YOU deem it appropriate. I am making the point that people have different perceptions of when it is appropriate to use a physical intervention.


i also said, rainy - 
*i use *physical means* as a Last Resort, not as the first-option. * 
i use a cheerful interruptor at a distance, just as soon as i see that a dog is too interested + intent. 
i carry an UMBRELLA - a big black full-size furling umbrella! - to insert between us - myself + the dog i am handling, 
and a potentially-problematic dog.

i also condition the dog i am handling, as i use the same umbrella as a parasol - i do not want to scare 
the dog whose leash i hold; i just want to cut off the visual + prevent a stare-down creating more arousal.

if the dog ignores my happy-interruptor + keeps coming, i have used the same upright, firm voice, flat-eyed GO * HOME 
with many dogs; it gets them off the dog, the umbrella is already deployed; they look at my face, and veer-off. 
if i can i REWARD the dog for veering-off with a handful of goodies, i DO; it also keeps them busy, so i don;t need 
eyes in the back of my head as we continue on - AND if i have to come back, they now have a nice *Memory* of me.

_*but - if i;ve already used the cheery-interrupt AND the brolly, AND the recess-monitor voice + Dead-Eye-Dick persona, 
and they keep coming with intent, and theres nowhere to go...

i have climbed into open pick-up beds, i have gone over fences, i have gone into public washrooms to EVADE a dog intent 
on mayhem... i have climbed onto kiddie-gyms with the dog, or onto picnic-tables to discourage an aggro-dog, 
or into a tree with a low-fork or heavy low branch, with the dog beside me. i have gone up on porches, crossed busy streets... 
i have put the dog i am handling into a pickup-bed, onto a shed-roof, up on a tree-limb. U name it, i have done it.

but if i run out of options, i will NOT spectate while a dog rips-into a dog hampered by a leash. *_

why is it so shocking? 
i have already DONE everything i can think of to interrupt or redirect; i throw treats, throw calming-signals, 
i give them space to retreat, i cut-off visual access to the target dog... i tell them to get lost, go home, back-off... 
and the dog(s) is (are) still coming. AND THEN ATTACKS.

i know the diff between a *snark* - verbal, maybe air-snap, no contact but possibly loud + startling; 
a *scrap* - maybe barks, growls, multiple snaps AND contact but no blood, typically; a few seconds; 
a *scuffle*, which most trainers + daycare-operators interrupt ASAP - a short-lived fight, minor injuries if any; 
and a *REAL fight*.

lets put it analogously: 
i am walking down the street, and a rude but friendly stranger accosts me; they throw an arm over my shoulder. 
If I Punch This Person - i have obviously over-reacted severely to what was invasive, but not threatening.

however - 
if that same person assaults me with their fists in an effort to rob me of my wallet, 
and i PUNCH them - have i used justified force? 
if they assault me + pull a knife when grabbing my wallet results in my resisting - 
and i then use my feet to knock my male assailant to the ground with a belly-kick, 
and take off running - have i over-reacted?

#1 is intrusive. 
#2 is a property + assault crime. 
#3 is assault with use of deadly force.

the dog attacking another dog to commit serious bodily harm is assault with deadly force; 
standing by while the dog rips-up the dog i have on leash will assuredly not help. 
and when i am ALONE - there is no one to help me, or the dog, and in a URBAN area, i cannot drop the leash - 
the dog is often no more than 75-ft from any street, and HBC is more-likely to kill than the dog-assault.

the Rule of Reasonable Force goes like this: 
never strike when words are enough. 
never pain when strike is enough. 
never maim when pain is enough. 
never kill when maim is enough.

the whole point is _Never escalate._ but if U have gone thru every option, and they attack U or the dog, 
at some point physical resistance may be needed.

as i have already said - 
MOST dogs stand-down; i have successfully changed serious aggro-intent into calm, more times than i can count; 
a cheery SIT! is often extremely effective, and tossing a goody after it alters the entire tenor of the encounter. 
i have guard-dogs who bark twice at me, then recognize me, shut-up and come over to watch us walk by. 
Why? cuz i get to know them, AND if possible their owners; i don;t want them needlessly agitating a dog-reactive dog, 
when i am handling one walking by their turf; neighborly relations are cheap insurance + very, very valuable.

but if everything i do fails to halt or change their intent - i won;t let a roaming dog rip-up the dog i have on leash. 
it has very, very rarely come to that... for which i credit the dogs, as they DO mostly prefer to avoid fights. 
i offer them as many alternatives as i can think of... 
if U have any more to offer, feel free.

i do not carry pepper-spray; the wind here near the ocean NEVER stops, and a faceful of pepper-spray can just as easily 
leave *me* blind, crying + choking, as it might the attacking dog. being unable to see or breathe is not good, 
when a dog intent on mayhem is within 6-ft - and U cannot spray a dog more than 8-ft away.

i U have a brilliant non-violent alternative, i am listening... 
--- terry


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Nellybelly said:


> I sometimes think we forget dogs are actually living breathing animals with their own mind and character.
> --snip----


I was an abused dog (if you like). I spent most of my childhood in learned helplessness. Some of that is because I do believe (and have only recently explored this) that I have something like Aspergers/autism. Every time someone raised their voice I withdrew, and was unable to say a thing, I just sat there and took the full force. I was well into my late 30's before I found a way to defend myself, to speak up, to even _breathe_ properly when under pressure.

But the pervading issue is.... I KNOW personally how it feels to be so overwhelmed to withdraw. To not be able to speak. To not be able MOVE, even. To be that afraid.

I would never wish that on another living being.

On the other hand, I am capable to burst into a bad temper and even be abusive. It was how I was treated myself by my so called elders & betters, and believe me, if you have experienced learned helplessness, you have a deep frustration that burns inside, but you have no way of relieving it.

Thank god I have never taken this out on my dog. I could - SO EASILY!!!! If you had had my upbringing, you'd have loads of built up frustration and it would be so easy to let rip!

So lets examine how handlers relate to dogs as a start. In an ideal world, all dog owners would have had balanced upbringings where they were never punished or hit or abused either physically or emotionally. Well that's cloud cuckoo land for a start - practically every incidence of animal cruelty can be related to a lack in the owner, for whatever reason.

However... let's see it from another perspective. 
I am drawn to sensitive, highly strung breeds of animals (dogs & cats - I owned & bred Siamese cats for decades and now I have a problematic Belgian Shepherd x Border Collie). I wonder why!?!

Well it's not that hard to work out, is it? :001_cool:

The whole time I have owned them I KNEW I had to keep my calm, learn, adjust, LEARN how to relate to them in a different way to how I was brought up..... One big fallout and I could lose their trust forever. They were my real teachers.. they showed me the way. How to interact with trust. How to engender trust in the first place. How to really appreciate - and know and trust - a trusting creature, for the first time in my life, and how to learn a DIFFERENT way of relating. The last thing I need is an animal which would happily take any kind of crap I could throw at it.... a scapegoat, a submissive. There are some types of dog which could and would take that, but that would be the last thing I really need.

So I go for strong characters... Is that any surprise?

Yeah they DO drive me nuts, but they are my teachers and I grow through them. And boy oh boy I learn so much... enough to be able to advise other people (an unexpected side-salad) and they do thrust me into situations where it is learn, die, rehome, or just stop believing.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I am drawn to sensitive, highly strung breeds of animals... I wonder why!?!
> Well it's not that hard to work out, is it? :001_cool:
> 
> The whole time I have owned them I KNEW I had to keep my calm, learn, adjust, *LEARN how to relate to them in a different way to how I was brought up...* One big fallout and I could lose their trust forever. They were my real teachers.. they showed me the way. How to interact with trust. How to engender trust in the first place. How to really appreciate - and know and trust - a trusting creature, for the first time in my life, and how to learn a DIFFERENT way of relating. The last thing I need is an animal which would happily take any kind of crap I could throw at it...
> ...


yup - when i work with horses, its the same thing. 
horses are big powerful animals, but they are mirrors for our state when we are with them; i CANNOT go into a pasture 
or a stall or a paddock or round-pen with a bad attitude, angry, impatient, in a hurry, cranky... Why? 
cuz i might not walk back out. (shrug) OR... if i don;t get my head kicked-off, i might ruin months of work on a spook - 
and i could do that in 15-seconds of careless sloppy impatience.

so... before U open the gate, the stall-door, the pen... U take a deep breath, mentally shake-off the day, and *Be here Now. * 
the world has to get along without U, its just U and the horse, right here.

U cannot afford to get irritated with an animal whose behavior is a puzzle with the pieces loose in the frame; 
if U blow it, U can wreck the process for the foreseeable future.

its just as true with a dog, *especially* if they have a bite-history. 
i can;t be careless, impatient, ill-tempered, rude - i have to THINK not react. and i have to engage the dog in the process, 
to make any progress at all. 
its a very Zen kinda thing; U have to get immersed + pay accurate attn to everything the animal is saying. 
if i get distracted, i can be badly hurt... OR i can seriously damage the progress or prospects of this animal.

but - there is NOTHING like the feeling of seeing a breakthrough.  
--- terry


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i also said, rainy -
> *i use *physical means* as a Last Resort, not as the first-option. *
> i use a cheerful interruptor at a distance, just as soon as i see that a dog is too interested + intent.
> i carry an UMBRELLA - a big black full-size furling umbrella! - to insert between us - myself + the dog i am handling,
> ...


I don't really understand how any of the above is relevant to the point i was making but thanks anyway.

I never said i have a brilliant NON violent way i was making the point that sometimes it is necessary to intervene physically. People will always have a different opinion on what consitutes a crisis and how much intervention is necessary but that doesn't mean they are wrong unless cruelty is involved.

Take Resource Guarding (as i have first hand experience of this). You never advocate telling a dog off for growling yet i totally disagree. I tried all the "positive" methods with my dog which would have probably been enough had he lived in an all adult house but he doesn't and the problem escalated resulting in him biting my son and daughter on seperate occassions. At this point i was facing a difficult decision (many would have taken him straight to rescue). Under advice from here i consulted my trainer who has trained GSD for 30 years and he advised a firmer stance.

By taking that firmer stance which did involve scruffing him TWICE and interupting his growling with a steady NOoooo, coupled with learning his body language so that i could interupt the behaviour before the growl in a matter of days the behaviour stopped. I do not have a broken dog, he is not timid or oppressed (quite the opposite i can tell you) he is a happy family member who i can trust round my kids again.

This situation was my definition of a crisis as if he had bitten again we would have not been able to keep him and i can't see it being easy to re home a dog that has bitten children so probably he would have been PTS at about 10 months old


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> I think he is good as he was a police dog handler for 20 years


Just a slight detour, but this made me cringe. I am sure many police dog handlers are sensible, civilised, people. But someone who has been doing it for 20 years would have been doing it when such delights as beating, kicking, hanging, and helicoptering were standard practice. This man would have been training police dogs around the time that Acer died of internal injuries, as a result of being repeatedly punched and kicked in the abdomen whilst strung up on his choke chain.

I know I am a little paranoid, but no way on this earth would an old police dog handler get their hands on my dog, unless I was 100% certain they had thrown their training manual out the window.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Colette said:


> Just a slight detour, but this made me cringe. I am sure many police dog handlers are sensible, civilised, people. But someone who has been doing it for 20 years would have been doing it when such delights as beating, kicking, hanging, and helicoptering were standard practice. This man would have been training police dogs around the time that Acer died of internal injuries, as a result of being repeatedly punched and kicked in the abdomen whilst strung up on his choke chain.
> 
> I know I am a little paranoid, but no way on this earth would an old police dog handler get their hands on my dog, unless I was 100% certain they had thrown their training manual out the window.


The police have a very stringent code if conduct when it comes to training their dogs which is ever changing. Have you ever seen a police dog cringe away away from a threat, pose a threat unless instructed to or be anything but the officer's loyal companion?

If you believe they use horrible methods I would suggest watching some videos on schutzhund training as they are very similar. Police dogs have to pass obedience and compliance examinations every few periods.

Have said all of this the same trainers that do the GSD training also train search dogs.

The Belgian, French and Italian police train using tennis balls as do the vast majority of British. There is an old chap that walks on the moors byme who trained service dogs after the second world war. He's trained dogs all over the world with a tennis ball. As soon as an officer was qualified they got a ball before the dog so he says.

I am sure the person who the OP has chosen will be more than qualified, use the methods to suit and will have everything singing in no time.

Now, about winding those car widows down......


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

rona said:


> Wow Nellybelly
> I didn't know you had it in you.
> Brilliant post :thumbup:


Why thank you!


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

Colette said:


> I know I am a little paranoid, but no way on this earth would an old police dog handler get their hands on my dog, unless I was 100% certain they had thrown their training manual out the window.


I have to say the same thought crossed my mind! I didn't say anything at the time because the op was clearly being presented with enough distractions and the appointment had been booked.

An ex police dog handler wouldn't be my first choice of trainer either, there's just too long a history of punitive training methods; but I'm hoping it works out well for Vicki.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> I am sure many police dog handlers are sensible, civilised, people. But *someone who has been doing it for 20 years would have been doing [cop-k9 training] when such delights as beating, kicking, hanging, and helicoptering were standard practice.* This man would have been training police dogs around the time that Acer died of internal injuries, as a result of being repeatedly punched and kicked in the abdomen whilst strung up on his choke chain.
> 
> I know I am a little paranoid, but no way on this earth would an old police dog handler get their hands on my dog, unless I was 100% certain they had thrown their training manual out the window.


i agree with U, colette - 
one of my former-clients dogs is an ex-cop-k9; during her *so-called TRAINING * she was hung, helicoptered, body-slammed from shoulder-height, Tasered, shocked with a collar, choked unconscious with a chain-collar, hung on prongs, beaten with a telescoping-baton + a nightstick, kicked, scruffed, and hit with a metal-pipe. 
THE * WOMAN * WHO * HAD * BOUGHT * AND DONATED * HER * witnessed a so-called training which featured the choke-chain, a shock-collar, AND the metal-pipe; she marched over, TOOK the dog, stuffed her into her car, and drove home with her. 
IMO she is a hero. 
the dog is amazingly-well-recovered; i;d give my right-ring and right-pinky to have met her, BEFORE they messed her head up. 
shes the East-German type GSD in my sig-photo; i will Never, Ever forget that dog, or the horrors she went thru... 
BTW that was an ARIZONA cop-shop, just in case any police are interested in PROSECUTING their own for extreme-abuse.  like that might happen, right... 
there ARE *some* police-k9-handlers who train + handle humanely; it is not, sadly, by any means the standard in the USA. not state-patrol, not city-police, not military-standard, either; *humane handlers among police or military, or humane-instructors to teach the handlers, are growing in number - but they are the Exception, not the rule. many SAR-handlers also use harsh methods, and so do Schutz, Mondo + French-Ring handlers, trainers and their instructors - again, a FEW training in the bite-sports are humane - but they are few.

i hope that humane-handling and training *becomes* a universal standard - but we are very far from that, in the USA. *

a VA-Beach police-k9 handler, off-duty, once TOLD a client of mine how to fix his dogs on-leash reactivity to other dogs... 
first he showed him how to *correct* his dog with the leash. 
his city-cop-k9 knew what was coming; he took the leash in his TEETH in an effort to save his own neck, but the officer casually jerked it out of his teeth, and proceeded to *MOVE his unoffending 85# M-dog from STANDING at his heel to CROSSWISE in front of him, facing right, in one enormous Two-Handed jerk on the dogs choke-chain with the 6-ft leash...* :mad5: :incazzato:
i am amazed his dogs head remained connected to his body. :cursing:

next he offered to SHOW my client *how to Body-Slam his dog from his Shoulder-Height to the ground, to land flat on the dogs side...* the officer, BTW, was approx 6-ft 2-inches; my client stands 6-ft 5-inches in bare feet. TRY to imagine the sheer force with which that dog would hit the ground?! 
SPEAKING as a lay-person, but with a GOOD knowledge of anatomy + physiology, heres my list of *some* potential effects: 
* ripping the diaphragm off the chest-wall, 
* rupturing the spleen, 
* tearing the kidney(s) or liver, 
* fractured-ribs, 
* spinal injuries, and 
* other internal-injuries, 
which may be fatal, or life-threatening, and require surgery.

PARALYSIS is not something a cop-k9 can work with; a police-k9 in a wheelchair is not a working-dog. 

but my client had seen enuf, thanked him for the info, and went home (3 doors down the street) to phone me, 
asking plaintively _if this was the way to train?! _
i said * No, it was not. and it IS not - but it happens every day. *


hutch6 said:


> *bold * and underlineadded -
> 
> *The police have a very stringent code [of] conduct when it comes to training their dogs* which is ever changing. Have you ever seen a police dog *cringe away away from a threat*, *pose a threat unless instructed to*, or be anything but the officer's loyal companion?
> 
> ...


i cannot speak to the UK-police current standards for humane-training, but the late great *john fisher* trained the FIRST humanely-trained and pos-R trained cop-k9 to meet the police-standard; at the time, he got one of the highest scores ever achieved, altho that may have been surpassed since, for all i know, many times; i have no idea.

his book on the process of training that dog is titled Dogwise. 
Amazon.com: dogwise by john fisher: Books 
*fisher* BTW was highly-influential in the founding of the APDT-uk.

from U-Tube - 
UK police charged with cruelty TO THEIR OWN DOGS - 
YouTube - Two British police officers faced jail over dog abuse 
the tricolored pup can be seen to limp in one segment; the officer hangs the Rott by the collar to more-conveniently hit the dog IN THE HEAD in another. these are their *pets* - think they handle a patrol-k9 better? 
casually KICKING a dog in the belly to move it? 

WARNING - Graphic! 
---------------------------------- 
YouTube - NC Trooper Sgt. Charles Jones Abuses K-9 Partner 
NC state-patrol officer: FIRED after this video - 
please note where the dogs HEAD is, level with the loading-dock - 
every time he kicks the dog, a bark is jerked out of the dog, 
who is dangling by his neck from a choke-chain. 
this $#@! sued to get his job back - 
i wouldn;t hire him for anything but driving a trash-truck. WITH a CCTV, just in case he got frisky with somebodys pet 
or a person on the street.

NC cops go into PR-defense mode: 
YouTube - WFMY News 2 - Police K-9 Training 
JONES claims these were *training techniques *taught to him* because quote, Rico was an Alpha dog that required extra training.* PR speak for extra abuse? [i do believe that he was shown these so-called Training-Techs; i do not think he invented them, altho the loading-dock was probably his own creative license.]

FWIW i do Not believe the statement from the NC-trainers + handlers that the worst thing the dogs EVER experience 
is a foam-padded stick for proofing during bite-work.

Baltimore, MD: cop-shop with a terrible rep for human + k9 abuse 
YouTube - Baltimore Police Dept Beating The Piss Out Of A Dog 
this so-called TRAINING involves a shock-collar, set high-enuf to make the dog yelp; and the sheer abuse from the COP-handler, who chokes the dog with bare hands, hangs the Malinois over + over by the collar, throws him around like a rag-doll, HITS him in the head, KNEELS on his ribs on the ground REPEATEDLY - _way to go, man, good way to kill a dog, there!_ and at TWO MINUTES U can hear his supervisor, telling the cop to do it again, keep it up, etc. 
the INSTRUCTOR *btw* is using the shock-remote.

Sit-Means-S*it training with a Dutch Shepherd - 
this company trains with shock-collars from lesson-1 of day-1 - 
they do not *proof* trained dogs they use shock To TEACH. 
YouTube - Police K9 dog training - Very aggressive dog 
this dog is aggro at the sight of bite-work equipment or when muzzled - IMO there are other ways to B-Mod 
his behavior, besides zapping him. NOTE the dogs flinch response + shakes his head when zapped; 
he also whines + yelps, BUT its hard to hear him over the constant whining of the other cop-k9 who wants to get in a bite. 
(the nearby dog is louder!) 
at 2-mins notice the dogs tail; at 2:30 the dog is beginning to shut-down; 
do U really think he could pet this dog now, WITHOUT the muzzle? does he look relaxed? trusting? controlled? 
the dog is tense; ears back, tail down, rump down, body stiff.

Seattle city-police; King Co: holding cell: 
YouTube - coward police abuse!!!!!!!!!! full grown man beat little girl!!!
15-YO girl being put in the cell slips the heel of her left sneaker off with her other toe, kicks + the shoe flies out the door, less than knee-high; TWO officers roar in, one slams her into the corner of the wall, throws her on the concrete floor by grabbing her HAIR, and he beats her head with his fist while the other cop looks on. 
THEN the same cop drags her up by her HAIR to take her out of the cell?

this is police-procedure on HUMANS? dogs do not get better treatment.

3 Swedish cops take their time torturing a dog - 
YouTube - Police kills dog 
they chase the dog repeatedly spraying him with pepperspray, the dog is not fighting anybody, he is rolling his face on the ground; they use FIFTEEN bullets to eventually kill him? 
this is SOP? 
the dog bit the owner; this is NOT a reasonable response, there are better (and cheaper?) ways to kill a dog.

gratuitous violence to pets Not their own - 
YouTube - Innocent Dog Murdered by Police 
a 4-YO Airedale shot + killed in his own front-yard by a County-cop in Oklahoma, who stopped to ASK for directions... 
the owner sued, pointing out that the officer was standing beside his patrol-car and could easily have avoided the dog, if he was QUOTE, in fear for his life. 
the County first denied the officer shot the dog; they changed their tune when she said her CCTV got it on video. 
i hope she won her suit.

some SAR handlers also use many traditional-training AND modern aversives - shock, prongs, choke-collars, collar-jerks, etc.

we just had a Schutzhund trainer video reviewed on the Dog-Chat area - 
OMG.....words fail me - Pet Forums Community 
she trains at Secret Lake, Illinois, i believe. 
the person who put the video-clip on UTube took it down, after all the negative comments. 
 awww... feelings hurt, perhaps? 
she jerked the M-GSD around like a rag-doll on a prong; her younger fellow-HANDLER (not trainer) was even rougher with the younger bitch, who was not much more than 6-MO. the younger woman looked like her daughter.

as for Cop-k9s attacking WITHOUT a cue: 
these are not every day, but they are sure not rare
================================= 
YouTube - Boston Police Dog attacked dog and owner 
dog + owner attack, Boston, Mass; owner bitten 3 times with her small dog in her arms

YouTube - Police dog bites Auburn player 
football player bitten by security-dudes dog

13-YO girl attends soccer-game; attacked by cop-k9 
YouTube - Girl, 13 attacked by Police dog 
TENN; dog was in fenced helipad *for exercise* and escaped, ran to nearby field, bit girl

cop-k9 bites cameraman! during bite-demo?! 
YouTube - Police dog attacks cameraman/ Polizeihund beiÃŸt Kameramann 
sounds like Germany or Austria...

TWO stoopid things 
YouTube - Disobedient Buffalo Grove Police Attack Dog 
cop-k9 BREAKS stay during demo; luckily he goes for a Sleeved man, but the officer then *rewards the dog for the UNcued bite*???! with a session of Tug?! :nonod: stoopid.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

I used to know someone who was a police dog handler (in the Netherlands) and I know her training was a mix of R+ and 'traditional' without the hardware. I'd describe it as positive-constructive but not playful. The dog was a very high strung Malinois. It lived as pet dog with the handler outside hours and seemed happy and mostly well adjusted - though not great with visitors (not unpleasant, just not interested - may have been taught though, as you wouldn't want a police dog to wag over to strangers...) and with a tendency to be rather intense. 

I would trust her (the handler) with a dog, because I knew her and her dogs. An ex-police dog handler wouldn't be the first I looked to for training though..


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

But you are all for the dog borstal trainers?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> But you are all for the dog borstal trainers?


No - but I know those trainers were encouraged to use methods they normally would not in their usual practice. I've met people who have had personal training with two of them, and they use only positive methods.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> But you are all for the dog borstal trainers?


:huh: Who is * you *? who mentioned -Dog Borstal- ? which BTW i have yet to see any segment of -

but it enjoys an abysmal rep among every pos-R trainer that i have heard talk about the program - 
BBC does not allow viewers outside the UK to view the program episodes on-line.

completely confused, 
- t


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

The three (four, actually) trainers that took part in the series are all trainers and behaviourists in their own right.
Mic Martin
Debbie Connolly
Rovert Alleyne
Lynne Davies

They all have online presence and it's not hard to see their *core* practices. I've met people who have had 1:1 with Robert and Lynne, in fact Lynne came out to see a friend's rescue dog a couple of months ago. Debbie Connolly is a regular contributor to a dog magazine writing about behaviour and I have not seen anything negative. She was in the first series but left to be replaced by Lynne.

Wild card is Mic Martin but his military background of training dogs for scent, bombs, search & rescue, inckluding dogs going out to war zones - just meant the production company making the series wanted him to ham that up (and oh god, did they!!! the had him skulking in bushes on a fake reconaissance manoeuvre at one point - Dog Borstal Unleashed) and make him the 'bad cop'.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> The three (four, actually) trainers that took part in the series are all trainers and behaviourists in their own right.
> Mic Martin
> Debbie Connolly
> Rovert Alleyne
> Lynne Davies


hey, MM! :--) 
so which 2 of the 4 are supposedly ALL Positive?

which just to quibble is impossible, BTW - failing to click, notice, or reward is not a punishment, but if the dog offers an unrewarded 
or un-noticed behavior, it is a disappointment of the dogs expectation. if one fails to REWARD desired behavior with praise 
often enuf, or over a long period of time, extinction of the desired behavior is virtually inevitable. 
(thats what happens when Pops takes the trash out without being asked, or makes dinner on a busy night, and NO * ONE 
notices or says thank-U... he will not do it many more times, without reinforcement  )

if these 2 trainers are *positive reinforcement* based in their home practice, WHY is that not visible on-screen? (or is it apparent?)

if anything, more confused now... :blink: Help?
--- terry


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> if anything, more confused now... :blink: Help?
> --- terry


I'll rephrase it then.... Dog Borstal showed the trainers using rattle bottles, a great deal of the time - with some dogs they used spray collars. Other times very hands-on to the degree that one or two dogs got alpha rolled. Water sprays were almost a weekly feature - right in the dogs' faces. On the other hand some of the trainers were allowed to explain a bit of behaviour theory.... but at the end of the day it came across badly (from a training/behavioural view). I will say though that it was pivotal in encouraging me to learn more, as I did not have internet access at the time.

If you now google these trainers, you will find that their basic Modus Operandi is NOT what was seen on DB, so it is fairly certain that the quick fixes were demanded by the programme production company. Borne out by the experiences of people I have since met who have had 1:1 training with some of them.

Quite unlike our friend CM whose every blink & gesture is heavily guarded by Rottweilers....lol

I just wish you could have seen it for yourself. Dogs By Dunbar it is not... but neither is it DW. It had a lot of negative points and some frankly awful situations but the trainers still managed to get a few points across and we did see clicker training, lure & reward and just a little bit of psychology filtering through. I don't think any TV dog training shows in the UK have ever been great - however one thing DB *did* try its best to put across is that if your dog has an issue, you _have_ to get someone in to help and the Dangerous Dog act was hammered home to more than a few owners who merely thought their dog was only being a bit naughty.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> If you now google these trainers, you will find that their basic Modus Operandi is NOT what was seen on DB, so it is fairly certain that the quick fixes were demanded by the programme production company. Borne out by the experiences of people I have since met who have had 1:1 training with some of them.
> 
> Quite unlike our friend CM whose every blink & gesture is heavily guarded by Rottweilers....lol


I can't help but feel disappointed that in order to get on TV, they compromised their integrities? If anyone had ever asked me to do anything like that, contrary to my own usual methods then I would have refused pointblank and walked off set. I was in an episode of Pet Rescue once (and what a stage managed farce that is!) and my class was included in a video to promote the training side of responsible dog ownership many years ago and had it been suggested to me that I was to use choke chains or any aversive tactics like rattle bottles and alpha rolls etc, I know that I would have told the film crew where to go!

I suppose the DB stars had to do it to appease the producers (?) but I can't say that I am impressed that they did.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> I suppose the DB stars had to do it to appease the producers (?) but I can't say that I am impressed that they did. [/COLOR]


Can't say I was impressed either. I don't know what their answer would be if I had the chance to ask, but I could easily guess that they may have signed up to something they couldn't get out of at a later date.... naïve enough to fall for original brief, or had agendas of their own at the start.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> I suppose the Dog Borstal stars had to do it to appease the producers (?) but I can't say that I am impressed that they did.


i can only agree, caro -  
i am really sorry to hear that to get 15-mins of telecast, they used tools + tactics that they normally abjure. 
IMO thats good salesmanship, MAYBE - and excellent rationalization! :nonod: but lousy ethical boundaries. :thumbdown:

if i was offered an hour of TV in prime-time with 20-mins of commercials, 10-mins of learning-theory in dogs, and 20-mins of 
shake-bottles, rolling, pinning and other aversives, i would have to say* Shove it, dearie. *  
making a bargain with the devil is a high-risk behavior - 
*U cannot be a little bit pregnant; U are or U are not. *

*U cannot IMO be a pos-R trainer and be suckered, brow-beaten or persuaded into using aversives other than neg-P 
(take away a desired thing to discourage a behavior - pup jumps-up? i walk away... ), time-outs, or other NON-physical 
mild consequences. * violating ones ethics for a bowl of pottage is a piss-poor bargain. :thumbdown:

very sad to hear it, 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Can't say I was impressed either. I don't know what their answer would be if I had the chance to ask, but I could easily guess that they may have signed up to something they couldn't get out of at a later date.... naïve enough to fall for original brief, or had agendas of their own at the start.





leashedForLife said:


> i can only agree, caro -
> i am really sorry to hear that to get 15-mins of telecast, they used tools + tactics that they normally abjure.
> IMO thats good salesmanship, MAYBE - and excellent rationalization! :nonod: but lousy ethical boundaries. :thumbdown:


It just goes to prove how 'fake' these dog training programmes are? The celebrity obsessed 'fans' hang on their every word and believe all they see on these programmes to be 'real' and then defend their idols to the hilt - for what? Stagemanaged fakery disguised as dog 'rehab'! 

You really cannot beat the real thing - i.e; getting up out of your armchair and joining a class, hopefully a decent one with a trainer who knows their stuff and who doesn't need to strut about pinning dogs down and shaking bottles at them.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> ou really cannot beat the real thing - i.e; getting up out of your armchair and joining a class


I will say one thing in DB's favour though, I beieve it DID encourage people to do that, or attempted to (and perhaps failed) BUT still a direct contrast to the other trainer on TV we all know and love who gives no real useful advice further to his own performance beyond 'don't do this at home'.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

But what they fail to show an inform the viewers is that training a dog takes longer than 30mins, an hour or five days which may create the illusion that with a plastic container of pebbles anything is possible.

Just like getting things right which you should want to do, positive methods take time but a lot of dog owners aren't even aware that dogs don't come with a decent understanding of the English language, a natural reaction to return to any whistle, a dog whistle isn't an amazing translation tool, they are not indipendent like cars and require interaction as they don't understand tv programmes.

As others have said, they compromised their morals, ethics and beliefs for £. People who can be bought are nothing more than performing monkeys.


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## Vicki_journalist (Dec 30, 2009)

Hi everyone, 

Following the visit from the behaviorist (NOT THE EX-POLICE DOG HANDLER, ANOTHER GUY) here is my update.

Basically we are starting indoors. When she bites I will shout no firmly then it is straight to the lobby for a 1 minute time out. This is the ONLY door we have in the open plan downstairs!

The lobby has been emptied so there is nothing in it. 

I have replaced good cushions, books, towels etc with old stuff and when she picks this up i have been told to ignore her as she is doing it for attention seeking.

However, not sure if she now thinks the books, cushions are hers because she has started picking them up when im upstairs, (so not attention!) 

She also ripped two of them apart and started eating inside. 

I rang the behaviourist and explained what happened so he suggested swapping the cushions for a toy, if she doesn't respond walk away into kitchen make lots of noise.

If she doesn't come (which she didn't) then go out of the house. 

I did this twice today, both times she dropped cushion and looked for me.

Another time she left the cushion for a toy, i removed cusion, did some search game with her then replaced cushion and later when she was searching she nearly went to get cushion so i shouted about her toy and she left it. 

I think the biting-isolation thing is working - she doesn't like it and comes back calm but im worried she will start thinking the cushion is her play toy and she is getting away with it. 

For now outside she is muzzled, until I can be in control inside. 

The behaviorist was really knowledgeable and thinks she was removed from litter too soon. 

What do you all think from the techniques I've ben told to do?

Thanks, 

Vicki


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Vicki_journalist said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Following the visit from the behaviorist (NOT THE EX-POLICE DOG HANDLER, ANOTHER GUY) here is my update.
> 
> ...


Sounds OK to me. A firm NO and withdrawal of attention has always been succesful for me in dealing with naughty behaviour


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

All sounds good. Just letting her know things aren't acceptable.

If she's chewing something you don't want her to do and give a sharp "No!" then give her something she can chew such as her toy as you are doing but make sure when she starts chewing you give her a really pleasant "Good girl" and it'll speed up the process.

Keep us updated with how you are getting along and stick with it. You'll be loving your relationship again in no time.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Good point Hutch. it's easy to focus on the Nos when things go a bit pear shaped so make sure you are responding to all the other positive things she is doing, even if it's just being calm for 5 minutes  Ignoring works much faster if she gets attention for good behaviour :thumbup:


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

Vicki_journalist said:


> She is a rescue dog from Battersea and was a stray dog so no background on her. She is approx 10 months old and has passed her bronze kennel club test so is doing well in some areas.
> 
> I do think it is moreso a lack of respect thing for me. She is not aggresive towards me and last night laid in front of me sleeping for hours like a baby, she does have her fab moments and training in class is going well but we have got to the point where when we leave she would play up and start jumping, tugging at my sleeve, biting and all because she didn't want to leave!
> 
> ...


Hi Vicki- just a thought i know that dogs trust have a behaviourist on each rehoming centre and whenever any dog is rehomed and there are any issues the new owners are told to contact the behaviourist atthe centre.Is there any chance that Battersea may operate in the same way?May be worth a wee phone call to find out.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Hi Vicki, what you describe is basically a version of bite inhibition training with a time out after each biting attempt (which I think is what you had been advised before in your previous threads too, so this all ties up)...so yes it should hopefully work if you stick with it consistently. That also ties in with the fact that he thinks she was removed from her litter too early...although to be honest, her owners would really have needed to continue her bite inhibition training after getting her anyway and if they didnt this could still be the consequence. So as we said, she hasn't been shown the right way to behave, so now by doing this hopefully you can show her the correct way to behave around humans! 

Usually it is any loud noise suggested or a squeal to basically distract them from what they are doing (although I don't personally like using either as they seem to hype them up more, so I always use a sharp intake of breath which seems to calm everything down easier), but the NO is basically the suggested loud noise to distract in this instance...

Re the cushions, could you just put them away completely for a while so she doesn't have the opportunity to get at them for now while you are doing the training? Set her up for success and reduce the likelihood of her being able to practice the bad behaviour?

And yes as we all said before, definitely continue to focus on rewarding all the good behaviour so she finds it much more fun to do the 'good' things than those you find unacceptable. Your general training should help for this anyway - are you working towards the silver now you have done the bronze? If so this should also give you something to focus on.


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## Vicki_journalist (Dec 30, 2009)

Hi everyone, 

I'll try to respond to each point made!

*Cushions - the behaviorist said not to remove them because in the long run we want them there, so replacing them and stopping the behaviour is the way to go, otherwise when they go back she won't have learnt anything. 

*I am rewarding her good, calm behaviour. I have been going up to her patting her, saying good girl, stroking her etc when she is calm. I also surprised her a few times with treats when she was like this. I will continue to do this. 
However, touch wood, she is now ignoring the cushions, since I sat with them and claimed them as mine she has not shown interest in them!

*Battersea do have a helpline, they just said take her back there for a behavioural test, but I don't think very well of this, I know how she behaves haha. 

*In the long term I want to work towards the silver and also do agility training with her. 

On another note. Fetch and retreiving. Basically I have in the past taught her to get the ball, come back and give it to me and she gets a treat. 
This was working fine but then my trainer said I shouldn't be treating her as it is playtime and she should WANT to bring it back.
However, now she runs after the ball and half the time picks it up and drops it and goes off to smell something. 
Do you guys think it is ok to use treats again and maybe gradually fade them out 

I am losing her attention when out and she is going off smelling everything, picking up sticks, rubbish etc. 

I haven't used treats whilst out because of her jumping up but am thinking when i know she is going to have play off lead I should use them again, I feel safer with her staying with me when i have treats as well!!

The behaviourist said it may be because it is a ball and he suggested getting a dummy which is what labs are trained on for picking up birds so today I did buy one but I forgot to mention to him the whole treat thing. 

What does everyone think?

Thank you, 

Vicki


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Vicki_journalist said:


> *bold* added -
> 
> *Cushions... touch wood, *she is now ignoring the cushions, since I sat with them and claimed them as mine* she has not shown interest in them!


:lol: :laugh: :thumbup:  :lol: oh, my... that was GREAT, thanks for the laugh! :thumbup:

i am sorry, hun (not much, but really i am, a teensy bit) - *claiming* in that sense rarely means squat to dogs.

Dog-Law says whoever has X, owns it... and s/he is generally left in possession of that object, or position on the sofa, etc. 
BUT... as dogs do not have pockets, if U get up + leave the bone, toy, sofa, etc, _legally (Dog Law) it is now up for grabs._ 
if i have left X, its now OK for someone-else to chew the bone, play with the toy, sit on the sofa... 
OR - in this case - chew the cushion. 

i;d get the cushion + anything else destructible out of her reach, thus PREVENT the behavior, 
prevent her PRACTICING destruction, and worry about having her learn not to destroy things later - while i can monitor.

so long as she is not monitored/crated, if destructible-objects are in reach, a bored dog will use them to alleviate boredom. 
its not BAD dog-behavior; its predictable, preventable + *management* - not a training-problem, IMO + IME. 
dog-proofing the confinement area is pretty-well inescapable. [sorry  ] if its not OK to chew or destroy, i;d get it out of there.

if theres too much to move - park her crate in there and put her in it, WITH a chew-object to prevent boredom/barking, 
or install a tether that keeps her away from vulnerable objects. 
Tethered to Success 
i do NOT suggest the 4-ft tether mentioned in the article; 18-inches is plenty.

tethers are for training positional changes (sit, down stand), Stay, 
or for learning to peaceably hang-out with a chewy in a safe area while Grown-Ups are busy. 

all my best, 
--- terry


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> :lol: :laugh: :thumbup:  :lol: oh, my... that was GREAT, thanks for the laugh! :thumbup:
> 
> i am sorry, hun (not much, but really i am, a teensy bit) - *claiming* in that sense rarely means squat to dogs.
> 
> ...


Must you respond like this to people :confused1: The OP has consulted a trainer and been given advice. Laughing at that advice is neither helpful nor productive.

Just because it doesn't fit with your ethos does not make it wrong.

I would agree with removal if the item is potentially harmful but i agree with the trainer that you are just avoiding the issue by removing it and NOT dealing with the behaviour.

To the OP - If you are happy with the trainers methods then i would follow their recommendations or the situation could get very confusing. If you get someone in you have to trust their methods and go with it or you are wasting your money hun


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Laughing at that advice is neither helpful nor productive.


i did not *only* laugh, rainy - 
i made suggestions, which should help.  and yes, it DID make me laugh. 
why not say so? :huh:

i made suggestions that may be helpful + productive - without utterly confounding the other trainers advice. 
the dog ripped-up cushions, books, etc, so far - avoiding more damage, and possible ingestion, is IMO a good thing. 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I would agree with removal if the item is potentially harmful but i agree with the trainer that you are just avoiding the issue by removing it and NOT dealing with the behaviour.


she did ask for opinions, rainy  
as for potential for harm, cushions are filled with various synthetics, which are unsafe to ingest; the cushion-cover may have buttons, a zip, etc.

the books and other small items the dog chewed are also possible ingestion risks.

she cannot * deal with the behavior * when she is not THERE - and she is not THERE because the dog is on a socially-sequestered time-out... so cannot be monitored. 
thats why i suggested 
* crate or 
* tether out of reach of destructible items


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> she did ask for opinions, rainy
> as for potential for harm, cushions are filled with various synthetics, which are unsafe to ingest; the cushion-cover may have buttons, a zip, etc.
> 
> the books and other small items the dog chewed are also possible ingestion risks.
> ...


Apologies but sometimes your posts can appear patronising, like you are ridiculing the advice they have been given and i don't think thats always helpful 

Like i said if you get a trainer in then you need to work with them and follow their advice or you are wasting your wonga :001_cool:


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## Vicki_journalist (Dec 30, 2009)

Actually this behaviourist is not charging me anything!! He basically works full time and has been studying dogs for the last year and has helped around 40 dogs so far but because he has not mvoed into it professionally yet he does not charge!!

Vicki


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Bargain!!!!


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## jennyafox (Mar 27, 2008)

Please do not use punishment on your Lab, even spraying water at a dog can incite aggression in some individuals! Dog training and behaviour has come a long way over the last few years, but there are still those that prefer outdated and cruel methods.

CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers
Please help raise pet owner awareness in dog training & behaviour therapy. Sign our petition against punitive training practices. Go to CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers and follow the links.


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## jennyafox (Mar 27, 2008)

Are you feeding your dogs food in a Kong? What food are you feeding? I would imagine your trainer has already addressed these issues with you? As you know it is normal behaviour for dogs to chew, providing a Kong with the dogs usual food in it (not just treats), will help prevent bordom and frustration.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I just never thought a labrador would bite my arms :-( I feel like any other problem could be dealt with like nervousness, dog aggresion etc but this is a different issue that doesn't seem to crop up


I haven't read all the thread, but just wanted to say I don't for one minute think this is aggression or biting as such. From what you have said, it is simply that she has never learnt bite inhibition or to not mouth. Labradors were bred to use their mouths and they can be the worst mouthers of all puppies. You don't have her history, but it does sound like she was never taught this as a puppy, and if she came from a poor breeder it's possible she left the litter early and never even started that learning from her littermates. I think you are on the right lines with what you are doing - she is still very young and also at the testing adolescent age too.



> On another note. Fetch and retreiving. Basically I have in the past taught her to get the ball, come back and give it to me and she gets a treat.
> This was working fine but then my trainer said I shouldn't be treating her as it is playtime and she should WANT to bring it back.
> However, now she runs after the ball and half the time picks it up and drops it and goes off to smell something.
> Do you guys think it is ok to use treats again and maybe gradually fade them
> ...


Firstly, it shouldn't matter what it is that she is retrieving, ball, dummy or toy. Yes, dummies are used for gundog training, but I also use tennis balls amongst other things.

It's not uncommon to run after the ball and then lose interest. What you need to do is get her interest up. I don't use treats at all in any gundog training - praise is enough. If you actually break down the retrieve, you are asking two main things of her. Go out and fetch something and bring it back. The fact that she isn't bringing it back is a really a recall issue. If she's losing interest I would be throwing the dummy only a short distance and getting her to pick it up. As she loses interest go to it and kick it or throw it a little further to get her excited and interested in it. When she picks it, then lots of excited praise and call her to you (this is the recall part) again, do it excitedly - run away a little if necessary, and when she brings it back praise her.

Whereabouts in Kent are you? there is a lovely, friendly gundog club that is great for beginners and covers basic obedience too. If you are interested I can pm you the details.

I know I'm not on the ground actually seeing what is happening, but I really don't think this is a true behaviour issue, rather a lack of training and poor start one.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

vicki, THIS is what leaped out at me from this post...



Vicki_journalist said:


> *bold* and underline added -
> 
> Actually this *behaviourist* is not charging me anything!!
> He basically works full time and *has been studying dogs for the last year *and has *helped around 40 dogs* so far but *because he has not moved into it professionally yet he does not charge!!*


if U had not noticed - 
i have been working with other peoples dogs as a pro for over 25-years. 
yet there have been numerous PF-members who have told me that i am an uncredentialed know-nothing, in slightly more-polite terms.

here U are, consulting someone who has spent 12-mos by *his* lights, _ studying dogs_ - which could mean COAPE courses or watching reruns of DogBrat-stal or the 1960s Lassie series, or reading Fennels Dog-Listener books and watching the dogs harass, play, fight, and intimidate at the local greenspace...

we don;t know. Do U? 
what *specifically* has he used as resources? and who are his role-models? 
Bill Koehler or John Fisher? Cesar Millan or Victoria Stilwell?

for pitys sake who NAMED him a *behavorist*? i don;t call myself that after several decades in dogs!

please find a properly credentialed, pos-R, EXPERIENCED person for B-Mod of this dog; at the moment, *
the sole advantage of this guy is he is free of charge - 
so what? 
FREE is not cheap if he gives U no worthwhile help, or if the dogs jumping + biting continue, or even get worse over the interim. 
please find a good pro - even if they are *not* FREE of charge.


i am done opining on this - i wish U luck. 
--- terry

*


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> vicki, THIS is what leaped out at me from this post...
> 
> if U had not noticed -
> i have been working with other peoples dogs as a pro for over 25-years.
> ...


Your way is not the ONLY way Terry and i really wish you would get off your soapbox for long enough to realise that.

If you posted in a more constructive way maybe people would be more inclined to listen but no one likes having stuff rammed down their throats all the time. It is possible to educate and advise people without steamrollering them.

The whole point of a forum is that people give their differing views on a subject and then the OP takes what suits them and there own personal circumstances from the thread. It is not a place to jump on someone elses opinion and ridicule them for it or throw a strop when the person choses not to go your way.

Just an observation


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> If you posted in a more constructive way maybe people would be more inclined to listen but no one likes having stuff rammed down their throats all the time. It is possible to educate and advise people without steamrollering them.


I'm sorry, I really don't mean to offend, but I can't comment on Terry's posts as I find them really hard to read.



> The whole point of a forum is that people give their differing views on a subject and then the OP takes what suits them and there own personal circumstances from the thread. It is not a place to jump on someone elses opinion and ridicule them for it or throw a strop when the person choses not to go your way.


I agree up to a point, and I'm not referring to this thread, but I've seen some really BAD advice given on this forum. The majority of people are pet owners and limited to their own experiences which really are insufficient to give any objective advice. When bad advice is given I think it important to be pointed out.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I'm sorry, I really don't mean to offend, but I can't comment on Terry's posts as I find them really hard to read.
> 
> I agree up to a point, and I'm not referring to this thread, but I've seen some really BAD advice given on this forum. The majority of people are pet owners and limited to their own experiences which really are insufficient to give any objective advice. When bad advice is given I think it important to be pointed out.


I agree.  I would like to think if anyone has a serious issue they are directed to a professional as i think it is nigh on impossible to advise over the net because you can't get the full picture wether you are a professional or not .


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> vicki, THIS is what leaped out at me from this post...
> 
> if U had not noticed -
> i have been working with other peoples dogs as a pro for over 25-years.
> ...


No one here knows that you are what you say or even who you say you are!!!!!
None of us have met you, we had a "vet" here once giving advise :scared:
Good at copy and paste they were.
IF you are who you say you are then you need to find a little humility and stop ridiculing everything that does not conform to your own version of right


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Vicki_journalist said:


> Actually this behaviourist is not charging me anything!! He basically works full time and has been studying dogs for the last year and has helped around 40 dogs so far but because he has not mvoed into it professionally yet he does not charge!!
> 
> Vicki





:::shakes head and backs away from thread:::

Terry, give it up as a bad job. What do folks like us know? We could be *anyone*. 

Leave 'em to it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Your way is not the ONLY way Terry and i really wish you would get off your soapbox for long enough to realise that.
> 
> If you posted in a more constructive way maybe people would be more inclined to listen but no one likes having stuff rammed down their throats all the time. It is possible to educate and advise people without steamrollering them.


i and many, many other persons have already posted *constructively* on this precise topic, and to this person, on 2 separate threads.

offering links, Books, and local referrals to in-person reputable trainers is hardly 
*ramming stuff down [the recipients] throat*.

and it is not My book, My website, or My UK-trainer being suggested - is it?

please tell me, why should anyone continue to offer advice which is mis-applied, misconstrued or ignored?

with extreme civility, 
- terry


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i and many, many other persons have already posted *constructively* on this precise topic, and to this person, on 2 separate threads.
> 
> offering links, Books, and local referrals to in-person reputable trainers is hardly
> *ramming stuff down [the recipients] throat*.
> ...


But Terry thats how it feels sometimes now on this section. Your way or the highway. I understand your passion for your chosen method but why do you feel it necessary to stamp all over other peoples or slate the OP if they don't take your advice.

Personally i find your posts very difficult to read and therefore apply. They sometimes feel more like a sermon and i'm afraid i switch off at that point but thts just the format.

There needs to be balance on this section so people can see what applies best to them but some people aren't bothering to post anymore because of the persistent ridiculing and that's not good or a forum of this size.

People ask for advice, others give it. Take it or leave it, that's how i feel when i post something, some you win some you don't C'est La Vie  You can't expect every single OP to agree with you, it's not realistic and sarcastic comments and ridicule are just unneccesary. We all think it sometimes but don't all feel the need to post it.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Oh dear hope you get things sorted soon x


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> But Terry thats how it feels sometimes now on this section. Your way or the highway. I understand your passion for your chosen method but why do you feel it necessary to stamp all over other peoples or slate the OP if they don't take your advice.
> 
> Personally i find your posts very difficult to read and therefore apply. They sometimes feel more like a sermon and i'm afraid i switch off at that point but thts just the format.


I'm not taking sides here, but I have to say that your comment isn't a fair statement. This thread has become eye catching and a lot of people have suddenly started to notice it, but for many of us this thread is just the latest instalment in an ongoing issue which the op has been struggling with for a while now. Several of us have offered help over the past few months, and will happily continue to offer help, even though that advice has sometimes been interpreted in a rather idiosyncratic way . It's been frustrating at times and Terry's post is simply a reflection of this.



> There needs to be balance on this section so people can see what applies best to them but some people aren't bothering to post anymore because of the persistent ridiculing and that's not good or a forum of this size.


I do agree with that. But the comments which put me off didn't come from Terry (nor did they come from you, I might add!)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> No one here knows that you are what you say or even who you say you are!!!!!
> None of us have met you...


yup - all true, rona.  nor i, U... 
but unlike U, i can be found listed on the roster of the 3 affiliations i list: 
APDT-Aus, apdt-USA, and TDF.

i do have a confession, tho... or two.

i;m not F and past-forty, i;m a 6-ft, 6-inch former longshoreman; 
i play pick-up basketball with the local kids, use depilatory instead of shaving (my face breaks out), have an ex-wife and ex-kids, and a mistress.

my middle-name is Clyde, and if called that in my cups, i have been known to punch the perpetrator. 
i have a beer-belly and eat meat - lots of it. i probably have artery-clogging fats, but i don;t give a rats.  
i don;t ride buses - buses are for losers. 
i have a Harley hard-tail - the bigger and louder, the better they are. :thumbup:

any questions? 

and yup - i;m having U on


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> yup - all true, rona.  nor i, U...
> but unlike U, i can be found listed on the roster of the 3 affiliations i list:
> APDT-Aus, apdt-USA, and TDF.
> 
> ...


That's just the type of answer that I would expect from you

How do we know that you are Terry?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> Im not taking sides here, but I have to say that your comment isn't a fair statement. This thread has become eye catching and a lot of people have suddenly started to notice it, but for many of us this thread is just the latest instalment in an ongoing issue which the op has been struggling with for a while now. Several of us have offered help over the past few months, and will happily continue to offer help, even though that advice has sometimes been interpreted in a rather idiosyncratic way . Its been frustrating at times and Terrys post is simply a reflection of this.
> 
> I do agree with that. But the comments which put me off didn't come from Terry (nor did they come from you, I might add!)


Fair play, we don't always see the bigger picture on here but if someone doesn't take your points then surely it's better to shrug and move on (like i said some you win some you don't) than to plug away and get frustrated to the point of being rude.

I am also making a general point about this response in general on the training section lately to anyone who has a different method to those championed by Terry.

I think some valuable alternatives are slammed and ridiculed when actually they may be equally as effective (and i am not talking about punishment).

I am not saying Terry is wrong, i don't think i am right but i do believe there is room for more than one form of training advice on this forum and i would hate to see experienced and valuable members stop posting because they are tired of the ridicule/battle every time they suggest an alternative 

Sorry i have a headache so i hope this makes sense and isn't too blunt


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> How do we know that you are Terry?


retinal scan? 
DNA profile? 
attestations? 
my mum died, so no help there - i have 3 siblings; to the best of my knowledge, we are all full-sibs.  
hypnosis? 
truth-serum?

pod-people are everywhere, the triffids are coming, and where is Orson Welles when we need him? 
(buried in an olive-grove in Italy, oh my... no help there.)


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

rona said:


> How do we know that you are Terry?


How do we know that you are Rona?....

It's all trust and Terry does have some checkable qualifications.
The most checkable of them all... is her solid, grounded, unfailing positive advice on here over many months. Far beyond what any fraud would be capable of, and yes we have had frauds here, as I well know.

This is not the right time or place to address this question. It should be taken to a new thread, IMHO. But if you want to know Terry's qualifications, you only have to ask the other people on here who are also well qualified, certificated, trainers and behaviourists. While terry's posts may be hard to read and slightly off-kilter at times, the content is always very sound and right on the cutting edge of modern behaviourism and training. Which is a lot more than can be said for some of our other contributors who have not stayed around to take the flak.

I have learned a lot from Terry... and so have many others.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

I have put very valid points and questions on this thread that have been ignored, but when the opportunity arises to belittle you are there. 
Terry, I have absolutely nothing against you or the advice you give, I have no agenda, I'm not a trainer and never will be, but I do know that ridiculing people is wrong and I will always fight that.
Yes we all do it sometimes but not with the venom and frequency that you do.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> How do we know that you are Rona?....
> 
> It's all trust and Terry does have some checkable qualifications.
> The most checkable of them all... is her solid, grounded, unfailing positive advice on here over many months. Far beyond what any fraud would be capable of, and yes we have had frauds here, as I well know.
> ...


I don't claim to have qualifications
My name is not rona that is my online name, also three other people from this forum have met me, two being mods


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> is her solid, grounded, unfailing positive advice on here over many months


I think Terry is a 'he' 

Honest, from what little I've read, Terry does seem to have some good advice, but I do find Terry's writing style really hard to understand and follow so don't tend to read it. Sorry, Terry.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Inkdog said:


> Im not taking sides here, but I have to say that your comment isn't a fair statement. This thread has become eye catching and a lot of people have suddenly started to notice it, but for many of us this thread is just the latest instalment in an ongoing issue which the op has been struggling with for a while now. Several of us have offered help over the past few months, and will happily continue to offer help, even though that advice has sometimes been interpreted in a rather idiosyncratic way . Its been frustrating at times and Terrys post is simply a reflection of this.


I vowed I would no longer post in this thread for reasons outlined above but I feel that, even though OT, there is an issue being continued from a particularly nasty incident on here recently.

The internet is the internet - we are all bound by the limitations of communicating through this medium. 
That means that we have to take people based on what we know about them as presented by our interpretation of them.
And indeed this goes for the way in which we take meaning or inflection from the written word.
For example someone with a huge number of posts and reps will have an established style familiar to those who regularly tune in.

This incident of which I speak seems to have left a bad taste around here and is being perhaps continually championed - I will ask again, why not ask the person directly via PM or such rather than waiting for an opportunity to do so in the middle of a thread?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Surely though as a qualified trainer or behaviourist you must acknowledge the need when dealing with serious behavioural issues of doing a proper formal VISUAL assesment of the dog, owner and it's environment. This is not possible over the internet. 

I think it is obvious when people are giving anecdotal advice eg "I experienced this with my dog and this is what i did" and i think thats the sort of advice people expect from a forum which is why when it is serious i advise them to get in touch with a trainer or behaviourist whose methods they respect so a proper assesment can be done :001_cool:

I am not questioning anyones qualifications but I am sorry but bits of paper mean nothing to me, some of the most knowledgable people i know on many subjects don't have a single qualification to their name, that does not mean their knowledge is useless yet i know also know many people with degrees in subjects they know very little about.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

tripod said:


> I vowed I would no longer post in this thread for reasons outlined above but I feel that, even though OT, there is an issue being continued from a particularly nasty incident on here recently.
> 
> The internet is the internet - we are all bound by the limitations of communicating through this medium.
> That means that we have to take people based on what we know about them as presented by our interpretation of them.
> ...


This is not a continuation of that incident as far as I am concerned, and I was here when we had a very believable vet on here who was giving advice on some very serious issues rather than sending people to their own vet. They were false, can you imagine the harm that could have been done? It doesn't bare thinking about


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Surely though as a qualified trainer or behaviourist you must acknowledge the need when dealing with serious behavioural issues of doing a proper formal VISUAL assesment of the dog, owner and it's environment. This is not possible over the internet.
> 
> I think it is obvious when people are giving anecdotal advice eg "I experienced this with my dog and this is what i did" and i think thats the sort of advice people expect from a forum which is why when it is serious i advise them to get in touch with a trainer or behaviourist whose methods they respect so a proper assesment can be done :001_cool:
> 
> I am not questioning anyones qualifications but I am sorry but bits of paper mean nothing to me, some of the most knowledgable people i know on many subjects don't have a single qualification to their name, that does not mean their knowledge is useless yet i know also know many people with degrees in subjects they know very little about.


Not sure if thats directed at me but it came up directly after my post so maybe?!

I absolutley agree with you - for the most part anything but run of the mill 'my puppy nips' stuff should be seen before much, detailed advice given.

As a qualified professional I will regularly deal with clients over the phone or via e-mail and duringt this initial contact I will take a history (informally) and offer basic advice often referred to as 'behaviour first aid'. This is usually in the form of management or simple strategies that are unlikely to cause more damage.

This is the same sort of idea when I post here (I can only speak for myself) but is also consistent from some of the other qual'd/experienced posters here.

The advice I tend to have the most problem with is that anecdotal, 'x worked for my dog' stuff as this is highly individual and may not be all it has cracked up to be for a number of reasons.

Again, one of the reasons I often advise that people see a vet, a trainer or go for behaviourist via vet referral. And indeed rather than posting on a formum I wish people would just do this but my main motive for posting on forums - to help pets and their people. I do that via my blog, at free talks and with dog charities - yes I take paid work too but do lots just to help. Not preaching but thats the only agenda here.

This is the oldest argument in the book re: book learningVlife experience. One on its own is not enough - you gotta have BOTH. Especially in an area such as behaviour which is changing and evolving so rapidly as our understanding of behaviour develops (so exciting!). Quals are important but as a basis ONLY, experience too but much more so that ability to _APPLY_ theory. Hope that makes sense?


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

rona said:


> This is not a continuation of that incident as far as I am concerned, and I was here when we had a very believable vet on here who was giving advice on some very serious issues rather than sending people to their own vet. They were false, can you imagine the harm that could have been done? It doesn't bare thinking about


Yes rona that is pretty shocking and disturbing :eek6: but this issue is different IMO - credible resources are supplied/referred to and there is obviously not any cut&paste from the internet or otherwise going on. 
If you have questions why not ask privately 'cos to me anyway and especially after recent goings on querying like this is likely to be met with suspicion


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> yup - all true, rona.  nor i, U...
> but unlike U, i can be found listed on the roster of the 3 affiliations i list:
> APDT-Aus, apdt-USA, and TDF.
> 
> ...


Yeah me, me, me!!!! Are you free tomorrow night for a burger and a beer?  You sound flipping GORGEOUS!!!!!! 



tripod said:


> This is the oldest argument in the book re: book learningVlife experience. One on its own is not enough - you gotta have BOTH. Especially in an area such as behaviour which is changing and evolving so rapidly as our understanding of behaviour develops (so exciting!). Quals are important but as a basis ONLY, experience too but much more so that ability to _APPLY_ theory. Hope that makes sense?


Absolutely agree.

I also agree with taking it 'private' when you have a 'beef' with someone on a thread rather than bickering in public and 'nitpicking'. It is so unsightly!


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

tripod said:


> Yes rona that is pretty shocking and disturbing :eek6: but this issue is different IMO - credible resources are supplied/referred to and there is obviously not any cut&paste from the internet or otherwise going on.
> If you have questions why not ask privately 'cos to me anyway and especially after recent goings on querying like this is likely to be met with suspicion


i missed most of that incident, as I don't come to the training section that much, having hardly any advice to give, other than on a very basic level.
I just feel that this needed airing as this forum is for all and not just dog trainers and highly qualified people in which ever field that may be.
Yes it it good to have the expertise but not to the extent that it puts off the very people that come to ask for advice.
Something similar to what is happening on this section was happening on the breeding section a few months back, and I believe a lot of people didn't receive the help they needed because they felt it was too scary to post


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Are you free tomorrow night for a burger and a beer?  You sound flipping GORGEOUS!!!!!!


i;ll get out my leathers, i have a spare vest, jacket + boots the missus left behind when she took off with her toy-boy - 
can U wear size-9 Dingo boots? the jackets a 40-chest.

i;ve got a spare-helmet - its only been in one accident, and no cracks, too. 
 we can go to the Rustlers Banque and dance all night, if yer up for it. 
oh - and i love Guinness stout, how about U?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Hands up all those who have been put off posting on the Training and Behaviour board because professional/semi-professional/dog training literate people insist on sharing their hard gained knowledge and experience. 

Sorry if folks like us make anyone feel threatened.  It's not intentional. We won't help anymore in future if we are scaring people off. :scared:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i;ll get out my leathers, i have a spare vest, jacket + boots the missus left behind when she took off with her toy-boy -
> can U wear size-9 Dingo boots? the jackets a 40-chest.
> 
> i;ve got a spare-helmet - its only been in one accident, and no cracks, too.
> ...


Get your coat - you've pulled!

::dashes off to have a shave and change::


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I think Terry is a 'he'


Terry is actually a SHE.

Different spellings apply to different countries.... I was very confused when I found out an american Leslie was female, but Lesley was male - which is opposite to UK.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Terry is actually a SHE.


:blushing::blushing::blushing::blushing:

Ooops.... sorry, it wasn't the name, rather than I thought I'd read a post about 'him' having a wife. LOL

That said, I do feel all this may have ruined the OP's thread. There's a lot of arguing to sift through to get to any real info and help !


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

I have been watching this thread very carefully and it is extremely frustrating to give advice and then know that it isn't being followed.

Having been in training for a while, you DO know that things WILL work if they are followed consistently in the right way. Unfortunately too many owners don't follow direction and do what they are supposed to do, or just take the bits that suit them and then say it hasn't worked. This is one of the reasons that I don't do behavioural stuff privately, but maybe I am the eternal cynic!

Therefore I can understand where Terry is coming from.

However, I can also understand everyone elses frustration, as there are a few strong characters on here, who do post in depth and that can be intimidating - intentional or not. 

I haven't posted much recently, because most of what can be said, has been said and doesn't need adding to, although I am cautious now before posting, because I do get the feeling I could be 'shot down in flames' at any minute and yes Terry I do find your posts extremely difficult to follow sometimes and frankly have given up entering into any discussion with you (please don't be offended by that, as no offence is intended), as I know it will be futile to try and put my point over!! 

What everyone needs to remember, is that there is more than one way to do something. Training a dog is not always black and white and no one - no one can give absolutely accurate advice without seeing the dog and owner interaction. I have often seen what is an 'agressive' dog, actually being a 'playful' dog - but until you actually see it..........

However, what we do agree with is that any trainng/behaviour modification should be positive for the dog and reward based. So lets all agree to disagree at times and be tolerant of our differences.

As for the OP, she is obviously trying hard, but has received so much information now, her mind must be in turmoil - I know it lost me a while back!!

It is often very difficult to see the wood for the trees when you are so involved, so Vicky Journalist - stick with one way, whoevers that may be, but one that you feel you can do and feel happy with. When you have picked it - be consistent with it. If you are happy with the behaviourist, then fair enough. Just be aware that someone training for so short a time and doing it for 'free', may not be what you need, so just be careful.

Kate


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I do agree with a lot of what you say, Kate. I haven't really followed this thread or the advice that has been given, but, from what has been said, I don't really see this as any big problem, just fairly typical of a lab that has never been trained, probably from a poor breeder and an inexperienced owner. Luckily Vickyjournalist is obviously dedicated and I'm sure things will work out. The one thing that concerns me about this kind of 'online' help is that there is no one on the ground seeing what is happening and how the owner is dealing with it (not just in this case, but with any training issue). It would seem the internet is a source of all info, it's not just training either, the 'learn how to breed on the internet' posts really worry me too. I'm not suggesting people don't ask or get advice, but a good training class or trainer would far better than advice given over the net. Someone showing the owner what to do, how to achieve things and making sure they are doing it correctly.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lets summarize: 
#1 - rona 


rona said:


> ...picked his front feet off the ground by holding his scruff either side off his face and just roared at him. He was so shocked, he just stood and looked at me.
> Never had a problem since.
> It's not a method I would recommend, but I sincerely sympathies, and wondered if you could find a less severe shock method that may work


#2 - spid


spid said:


> I lost it - yelled lots and smacked his leg - he was perfectly clean from that moment on.


#3 - goodVic


goodvic2 said:


> ...when a dog is behaving like this, it is showing total disrespect for the handler. [snip]... Dogs... need to understand that the human is the boss and it cannot behave like this. [snip]...
> You can PM me (for) further info. Otherwise I'm sure somebody will be along and tell u to use a clicker :lol:


#4 beardy


Beardy said:


> ...Zak once bit me in excitement when I was agility training. I immediately told him DOWN & I roared at him DONT YOU DARE DO THAT. I did go over the top, but he hurt me. He has never done it again. Dogs & children are just the same... [snip] Be firm & consistent & give her plenty of praise when she is getting things right.:thumbup:


#5 - nellybelly 


Nellybelly said:


> Bella... has frustrated me beyond belief on the occasion. I have picked her up and shook her and shouted at her, and when I put her back down she is an angel. [snip]...
> ...Bella always comes along to friends houses. ... There are people who do not want pets on furniture and I take her own basket along. If she tries to get on their couch I shout at her and she doesn't attempt it, whereas gently telling her no will not have this effect.
> In summary, I think it is ok to occasionally raise your voice.


#6 - hutch 


hutch6 said:


> ...you do need to show her who is in charge and by laying down clear rules at home in no uncertain terms will win you respect points. Don't think that by being stern that you are being cruel...
> No getting away with anything is needed here.


myself - 


leashedForLife said:


> * consult a pro; local, pos-R, CREDENTIALED *
> 
> just to say...
> if U do any of these behaviors
> ...


katieFranke - 


katiefranke said:


> ...the clicker in itself will not stop a bad behaviour - (its) a marker (to tell) a dog it is doing something right...
> [snip]... they are used to train alternative behaviours. [snip]... you can pinpoint the exact point at which they are doing the 'good/right' thing.


hutch - 


hutch6 said:


> You can't clicker train respect, just nice looking physical shapes. [snip]... It's tough love this dog needs and it needs to start in the home.


katieFranke - 


katiefranke said:


> ...in modifying extreme behaviour cases - using the clicker to mark desired alternative actions/behaviours which are incompatible with the undesirable behaviour (so extinguishing the undesirable one in the process)... not just 'physical shapes'


inkdog - 


Inkdog said:


> ...you've contacted a behaviourist? Good! Hopefully s/he will offer you some one to one sessions. If you have any more questions at that point, come back and ask.


 the OP - 


Vicki_journalist said:


> With Ruby it isn't a case of her showing no interest in me, in fact... maybe too much by 'supervising' me wherever I am. She does respond to me during training and has passed her bronze test.
> 
> I've taught her basic commands and when she is off the lead she stays near and comes to me straight away when I call her.
> She sits at open doors until I tell her she go come through and she comes when called in the house.
> ...


i think that about sums it up; 
*Me pack-leader, U dog* vs *B-Mod with a credentialed pro to help. *

the OP chose neither: 
she chose a self-nominated (? i;m guessing), *behaviorist* whos been *studying dogs for a year*. 
his primary appeal seems to be, hes free of charge.

in the previous thread, the OP was offered many low-cost alternatives - 
library books, websites, links, etc; 
also CALMATIVES which are definitely less costly than a credentialed trainer, one on one.

did i miss anything important? 
- t


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Gosh just read this whole thread over 2 days 

and its a brillient example of passion and stubborness all rolled in to one, theres been some great advice here, great opinions and some sound debate, its so nice to have heated yet levelled debat carry on on its own without it going off the rails and being prematurely closed.

Im not a behaviour expert and have my own opinions on whos style i like or dislike out of whats been said but just as someone somewhat removed from the passion of this thread i wanted to point out that all of you have made it one excellent thread :thumbup:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

mitch4 said:


> Gosh just read this whole thread over 2 days
> 
> and its a brillient example of passion and stubborness all rolled in to one, theres been some great advice here, great opinions and some sound debate, its so nice to have heated yet levelled debat carry on on its own without it going off the rails and being prematurely closed.
> 
> Im not a behaviour expert and have my own opinions on whos style i like or dislike out of whats been said but just as someone somewhat removed from the passion of this thread i wanted to point out that all of you have made it one excellent thread :thumbup:


Isn't it just? 

I would also just like to add that it is not for any one person, especially one who is neither a Moderator nor an Admin, to start telling other members off for their posting style.  I am sure that if Petforum (Admin) and the *official* Pet Forums Moderators had any issue with the style of _leashedforlifes'_ posts, they would take that up with her themselves in a private way. Ordinary members can of course block her posts simply by utilising the Ignore feature located at User Control Panel>Settings & Options>Edit Ignore List  

_leashedforlife_ is simply passionate about what she believes in and I can't say that I blame her. She does laugh (sometimes sardonically) and get frustrated and that shows through her posting style. In the written word we lack 'emotion' in our tones even with 'smilies' and so yes, sometimes _leashedforlifes'_ way of expressing how she feels may be a little OTT for us laidback Brits.  If people are really irritated by that then use Ignore. Or simply sail on by and don't respond.  

I cannot always read through them either but her advice is usually sound and yes, she is who she says she is, despite the cheeky way in which she has been doubted. Started getting a little personal against her a while back didn't it? No need. Looks bad. Leave it out.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mitch4 said:


> ...as someone somewhat removed from the passion of this thread i wanted to point out that all of you have made it one excellent thread :thumbup:


 and we didn;t even throw fruit!  yikes... (ducks and runs...) _*Splat...*_ 
(fwwooop!..) got my brolly, ha-ha! _*Splat...*_


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

rona said:


> A Man Among Wolves | Video | | National Geographic Channel
> He lives and behaves like them  howling, licking and snarling 
> 
> Living with Gorillas - Crime Library on truTV.com
> ...





rona said:


> I never saw Alfie's problem as aggression, he hasn't got it in him





rona said:


> Just to inform you Terry
> I have only ever scruffed twice in my 35 years of dog ownership


Just to clear up my miss quoted post


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

One of the ironies of this thread is that I don't believe that we're talking about a serious problem! It's been an ongoing issue, but all we've got here is a young dog who's being particularly boisterous. Those of us who live with Labs know how playful they can be, and we also know how often they can be mouthy when they play. It's unfortunate that the op labelled this behaviour as an 'attitude' in the thread title. It's even more unfortunate that others then renamed this behaviour 'aggression' and started waving that term around like a baton.

Personally I don't believe that Ruby, the dog in question, has a serious problem. She doesn't have an attitude and she isn't aggressive. She's a big puppy who hasn't been taught how to behave properly. I'm prepared to bet anything you want that someone with experience could sort this situation out very quickly.

But over the past few threads it's also become clear that the op needs to be _shown _how to achieve this, rather than simply being _told_; hence the recommendation to seek help from a professional. It would be preferable for that person to have experience, but the current choice is consistent with this series of threads!

I don't think that there's any point in continuing to hammer this one out, particularly if it's going to start getting personal. The best help now would be for someone who lives in Kent to be able recommend a good trainer; someone with experience, and someone who'd be able to offer Vicki some effective one to one sessions.


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

regarding post # 145, I feel like removing most parts of my post have made me seem like someone I am not. It has been taken out of context.
I do NOT like to shout at my dog, and I am not proud of the incidents where I have picked her up and shaken her and shouted at her (2 to be precise). Just to clarify, I lifted her off the ground with both my hands; one under her chest one behind her bum (as you should pick up dogs so they are well supported) and only *slightly* shaken her, and raised my voice at her. This is not as traumatic as the image some of you may have in your mind.

As for shouting at her not to jump on the couch at other people's houses. It is about consistency. bella is allowed on MOST couches in MOST people' houss but not all. What she should ACTUALLY be taught is couches are a NO NO in all locations, so as to prevent confusion. But i don't think that for a couple of hours a week when she is at a house where she is not welcomed on teh couch, I should deny her the pleasure of beig on the couch everywhere else. As a result, OF COURSE Bella is sloghtly confused. A gentle NO will not make it clear that she is not allowed on a particular couch. A firm NO does the job. I am in the company of other people who have invited me over, OBVIOUSLY, I will not scream my lungs out to tell Bella not to get on the couch (even NOT in the company of other people) but just for some of you to understand the environment I am in and that in fact "shouting" is probably more accurately described as raising my voice slightly. When she goes to settle on her basket she is rewarded GREATLY. 
Another option would be for Bella to NOT come along where she isn't allowed on the couch. But I really think raising my voice for a second is worth it to her as she gets a car ride, an outing to someone else's house, and more often than not they have dogs and she has a great time playing with them.

I would appreciate if I was only quoted PROPERLY, or not quoted at all. I do not wish to have snippets of my posts quoted in a misleading manner. I would also appreciate a response to this post from the person who used me as an example of the pack -leader theory WHICH I AM FIRMLY AGAINST. I do not shotu at Bella to show her I am pack leader...I just want to make it clear that this is no time to mess around. I do not wish to insult anyone who does follow the pack leader theory, I am just clarifying that I have wrongly been accused of following this theory, by being misquoted.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I think this did need airing as it is an issue with this section, not necessarily a personal one. Apologies to the OP  

The thread shows there is some concern over this section as a whole becoming a "one horse race" and members have expressed that they no longer post because of the problem. Regretfully to the OP this thread is just a good example of how so many seem to go at present.

IMO that's not good for the forum and i am entitled to express that.

As for personal remarks making posters look bad well i totally agree so can we quit with the ridicule and slamming of people who maybe don't hold the same viewpoint. It goes both ways Caroline.

For EG, pack theory is a widely held belief (just an example) wether you agree with it or not a member has a right to give that opinion and at the moment it is starting to feel like they do not.

Like Rona i rarely give advice on here but i have recieved some good advice on here before and in my instance the Pos R training advice i recieved did not work resulting in a bite and proving how dangerous it is to give in depth training advice over the net. However my trainer with 30 yrs experience and not a qualification to his name sorted the problem in a couple of weeks. His methods worked for me in my situation with my dog


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I think this did need airing as it is an issue with this section, not necessarily a personal one. Apologies to the OP
> 
> The thread shows there is some concern over this section as a whole becoming a "one horse race" and members have expressed that they no longer post because of the problem. Regretfully to the OP this thread is just a good example of how so many seem to go at present.
> 
> ...


Well said.
Just to clarify, I have never had a problem with anybody talking about, supporting the pack leader theory. I just do not want to be put in this category.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Nellybelly said:


> Well said.
> Just to clarify, I have never had a problem with anybody talking about, supporting the pack leader theory. I just do not want to be put in this category.


We posted at the same time so mine wasn't a reply to yours


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Nellybelly said:


> regarding post # 145, I feel like removing most parts of my post have made me seem like someone I am not. It has been taken out of context.
> I do NOT like to shout at my dog, and I am not proud of the incidents where I have picked her up and shaken her and shouted at her (2 to be precise). Just to clarify, I lifted her off the ground with both my hands; one under her chest one behind her bum (as you should pick up dogs so they are well supported) and only *slightly* shaken her, and raised my voice at her. This is not as traumatic as the image some of you may have in your mind.
> 
> As for shouting at her not to jump on the couch at other people's houses. It is about consistency. bella is allowed on MOST couches in MOST people' houss but not all. What she should ACTUALLY be taught is couches are a NO NO in all locations, so as to prevent confusion. But i don't think that for a couple of hours a week when she is at a house where she is not welcomed on teh couch, I should deny her the pleasure of beig on the couch everywhere else. As a result, OF COURSE Bella is sloghtly confused. A gentle NO will not make it clear that she is not allowed on a particular couch. A firm NO does the job. I am in the company of other people who have invited me over, OBVIOUSLY, I will not scream my lungs out to tell Bella not to get on the couch (even NOT in the company of other people) but just for some of you to understand the environment I am in and that in fact "shouting" is probably more accurately described as raising my voice slightly. When she goes to settle on her basket she is rewarded GREATLY.
> ...


Hey Nelly Belly

You don't have to justify anything - I too have picked one of my dogs up in the past, either side of her neck, lifted her front feet off the ground and 'told her off'!!!

I am afraid that I have been known to shout ocassionally too!  That's life and I am not perfect - neither are my dogs!!

Kate


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

k8t said:


> Hey Nelly Belly
> 
> You don't have to justify anything - I too have picked one of my dogs up in the past, either side of her neck, lifted her front feet off the ground and 'told her off'!!!
> 
> ...


That is life, with all the outside influences that occur. Children, other people in the household, other dogs and a mountain of stresses of every day life.
Oh that we all were perfect and had the time to devote entirely to our dogs.
Now wouldn't that be the ideal


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

Vicki_journalist said:


> She is a rescue dog from Battersea and was a stray dog so no background on her. She is approx 10 months old and has passed her bronze kennel club test so is doing well in some areas.
> 
> I do think it is moreso a lack of respect thing for me. She is not aggresive towards me and last night laid in front of me sleeping for hours like a baby, she does have her fab moments and training in class is going well but we have got to the point where when we leave she would play up and start jumping, tugging at my sleeve, biting and all because she didn't want to leave!
> 
> ...


Haven't gone through all posts.
To be honest she is very young, she is pushing boundaries and needs to learn some manners.... Labs can be a real handful especially during teens, and she is still very much a pup.
Our first lab was a real shock to the system :001_cool:

I think as you said contact a vet recommended behaviourist who use reward based methods  
Good luck to you


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> lets summarize:
> #1 - rona
> 
> #2 - spid
> ...


*Yep - you missed that I wasn't talking about a dog!!!!!!!*!!!!!!!! It was my son and was said in a very light hearted kind of way - in a 'we all snap sometimes' way, and so don't feel guilty if you do, more along the lines of *moral support *than a training method. -- oh - and by the way SOMETIMES it has a result. If you go further into my *short* post there you will see *I DON'T *advocate doing this at all. Please feel free to take my post out of context when ever you want to make your point! NOT!!!!!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> One of the ironies of this thread is that I don't believe that we're talking about a serious problem! It's been an ongoing issue, but all we've got here is a young dog who's being particularly boisterous. Those of us who live with Labs know how playful they can be, and we also know how often they can be mouthy when they play. It's unfortunate that the op labelled this behaviour as an 'attitude' in the thread title. It's even more unfortunate that others then renamed this behaviour 'aggression' and started waving that term around like a baton.
> 
> Personally I don't believe that Ruby, the dog in question, has a serious problem. She doesn't have an attitude and she isn't aggressive. She's a big puppy who hasn't been taught how to behave properly. I'm prepared to bet anything you want that someone with experience could sort this situation out very quickly.
> 
> ...


InkDog I couldn't agree with you more this is simply an untrained excitable Labrador very typical behaviour of a lab that has never been taught bite inhibition and not to mouth and given the dogs background is not surprising. Those of us with labs recognise the obvious and that it is not a behavioural problem however daunting it may feel to vicky. In my opinion a good trainer on the ground to teach vicky how to train her would be worth ten times the advice given over a forum (even if that advice is good) and that is why I haven't actually given any practical advice. A behaviourist should be able to help but not all behaviourists are good trainers just like not all trainers are behaviourists. It seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut and a more expensive option but I do think it will be much more fruitful than trying to follow advice on the net.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> InkDog I couldn't agree with you more this is simply an untrained excitable Labrador very typical behaviour of a lab that has never been taught bite inhibition and not to mouth and given the dogs background is not surprising. Those of us with labs recognise the obvious and that it is not a behavioural problem however daunting it may feel to vicky. In my opinion a good trainer on the ground to teach vicky how to train her would be worth ten times the advice given over a forum (even if that advice is good) and that is why I haven't actually given any practical advice. A behaviourist should be able to help but not all behaviourists are good trainers just like not all trainers are behaviourists. It seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut and a more expensive option but I do think it will be much more fruitful than trying to follow advice on the net.


:thumbup: Great post


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Hands up all those who have been put off posting on the Training and Behaviour board because professional/semi-professional/dog training literate people insist on sharing their hard gained knowledge and experience.
> 
> Sorry if folks like us make anyone feel threatened.  It's not intentional. We won't help anymore in future if we are scaring people off. :scared:


That would be no-one then. Except if they are put off then they won't be reading this and therefore not present to put their hand up. You'll have to cast the net further afield.

I have enjoyed this thread despite being misquoted and made out as an Iron-Fist ruler against the iminent uprising of The Dog Army despite having three of the little blighters myself but nevermind.

I am intrigued by the "judgement day" incident but no need to reference to it on here or people will start gettings warnings from admin I guess. I'll have to dig around or wait for a PM from a generous witness to give me the juicy details


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

I actually do feel that there is a need to consider pack behaviour and leadership of this pack but in a positive way

I have 5 dogs and they all show respect for me I give respect back to them, iv learnt to understand most of thier behaviours and body language, they ask me for things i ask them for things. Iv put in a lot of good manners training with them and have good control over them.

Now couple of weeks ago i was not very well id had a car accident and very very stressed at work, my routine with them changed, i was less tollorent, less able to be myself and less motvated about life

The day after the accident my 2 older girls started to fight badly, Ella who is for want of a better word our top dog carried herself well didnt want to fight but second in command molly kept attacking her then molly attacked all of the 3 other dogs which resulted in Ella protecting them by attacking molly.

Long story short. When Molly actually went for the baby of the group miniture schnauzer Charlei girl, Ella lost the plot and literally pounded molly to the floor, molly backed off to a bed but still stareing at Ella, Mabel and charlie girl both went to stand with Ella in row all 3 stareing at molly, molly snarled bk, all three girls took one step forward paw up heads bowed towards molly. Molly slowly hung her head, turned her body so her back was faceing the other 3 and she lay down. Then the 3 others all shook and ran out of the room and played with each other. Iv had no more issues other than the odd grumble from molly since this day. They seemed to come together in solidarity and make sure molly knew her place. It took a few days of molly being very appeaseing to them before she was allowed pack in the fold so to speak, now shes back playing with them and sleeping cuddled in beds with them

My own theory is me being off kilter may have had some implication in molly's behaviour at the start but dont really know

will add shed been spayed 3 weeks prior so maybe a surge of hormones or she was feeling poorly but either way i do feel there is when you have more than one or two dogs pack behaviour to be seen, we see it on other occassions but i chose to tell this story as its was a very clear indication of a pack sorting out thier own issues


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> InkDog I couldn't agree with you more this is simply an untrained excitable Labrador very typical behaviour of a lab that has never been taught bite inhibition and not to mouth and given the dogs background is not surprising. Those of us with labs recognise the obvious and that it is not a behavioural problem however daunting it may feel to vicky. In my opinion a good trainer on the ground to teach vicky how to train her would be worth ten times the advice given over a forum (even if that advice is good) and that is why I haven't actually given any practical advice. A behaviourist should be able to help but not all behaviourists are good trainers just like not all trainers are behaviourists. It seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut and a more expensive option but I do think it will be much more fruitful than trying to follow advice on the net.


Yep completely agree....


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> and training in class is going well but we have got to the point where when we leave she would play up and start jumping, tugging at my sleeve, biting and all because she didn't want to leave!


Vicky, can I ask you what the trainers suggest you do when they witness this? If they are not helping having seen it, then really I would go elsewhere. I'm not saying they're bad classes, it may be that they don't have the experience to deal with it, but really any good trainer should be helping with these problems rather than just witnessing them.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> ...what (did) the trainers suggest you do when they witness this? If they are not helping having seen it, then really I would go elsewhere. ...it may be that they don't have the experience to deal with it, but really any good trainer should be helping with these problems rather than just witnessing them.


Yes! :thumbup:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Hands up all those who have been put off posting on the Training and Behaviour board because professional/semi-professional/dog training literate people insist on sharing their hard gained knowledge and experience.
> 
> Sorry if folks like us make anyone feel threatened.  It's not intentional. We won't help anymore in future if we are scaring people off. :scared:


I'll put my hands up then 

I have deliberately stayed out of this debate, because I did not want this to seem like a "witch hunt".

I was slightly put off from posting in this section for a while. You may recall a thread where I said to you and others:

"can you not stop critizing me every time I post, just because I believe differently to you"

I even remember saying that if I was less of a "robust" person, then I may also have felt bullied.

I couldn't be bothered to find the post, because to be honest I have better things to do.

But yes, they are put off from posting........


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I'll put my hands up then
> 
> I have deliberately stayed out of this debate, because I did not want this to seem like a "witch hunt".
> 
> ...


I am sorry that you felt like that. It would never have been my intention to make you or anyone else feel that way. 

So, if this is the case then, should all those who are more educated and experienced in dog behaviour, particularly in an acedemic way, now refrain from answering posts where the poster asks for help with a dog problem? Should we just refer them to the APDT or APBC and leave them to a myriad of different advice from other pet dog owners who have not actually specialised in behaviour and training either as a hobby or as a profession? If so then I will happy just refer people to the APBC or APDT and then click off the thread. 

I again refer people to the Ignore facility. If you don't want to read our stuff then put us on ignore. We shan't mind.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> I am sorry that you felt like that. It would never have been my intention to make you or anyone else feel that way.
> 
> So, if this is the case then, should all those who are more educated and experienced in dog behaviour, particularly in an acedemic way, now refrain from answering posts where the poster asks for help with a dog problem? Should we just refer them to the APDT or APBC and leave them to a myriad of different advice from other pet dog owners who have not actually specialised in behaviour and training either as a hobby or as a profession? If so then I will happy just refer people to the APBC or APDT and then click off the thread.
> 
> I again refer people to the Ignore facility. If you don't want to read our stuff then put us on ignore. We shan't mind.


I don't think you are quite getting the point made. I don't want to be on the training section much. I have no real interest, but when I see bullying I cannot just sit and be quiet.
The advise is not the problem as most of you give very sound advice as far as I can see


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> I am sorry that you felt like that. It would never have been my intention to make you or anyone else feel that way.
> 
> So, if this is the case then, should all those who are more educated and experienced in dog behaviour, particularly in an acedemic way, now refrain from answering posts where the poster asks for help with a dog problem? Should we just refer them to the APDT or APBC and leave them to a myriad of different advice from other pet dog owners who have not actually specialised in behaviour and training either as a hobby or as a profession? If so then I will happy just refer people to the APBC or APDT and then click off the thread.
> 
> I again refer people to the Ignore facility. If you don't want to read our stuff then put us on ignore. We shan't mind.


Sorry but you are missing the point


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> I am sorry that you felt like that. It would never have been my intention to make you or anyone else feel that way.
> 
> So, if this is the case then, should all those who are more educated and experienced in dog behaviour, particularly in an acedemic way, now refrain from answering posts where the poster asks for help with a dog problem? Should we just refer them to the APDT or APBC and leave them to a myriad of different advice from other pet dog owners who have not actually specialised in behaviour and training either as a hobby or as a profession? If so then I will happy just refer people to the APBC or APDT and then click off the thread.
> 
> I again refer people to the Ignore facility. If you don't want to read our stuff then put us on ignore. We shan't mind.


You should not stop posting at all.

You and Leashed for life give some great advice. I even PM'd you to ask your opinion, because I do think you know what you are talking about. I also repped Leashed for life the other day, because he takes so much time to copy and paste info into posts.

But as I said then and I will say again, you don't need to jump all over anyone else who doesn't agree.

I think this is the point others are raising.

Every body has their own opinions. If I start a thread asking "do you think my beliefs are right or wrong?" then I expect people to answer.

But if I post a response to somebody's problem then I don;t expect my replies to be shot down in flames and every article ever written about why the pack theory or dominance or CM is wrong, gets dragged out.

It is not about proving or disproving everybody's methods, it is about giving the OP options.

I understand if myself or others are advising adversive methods such as, alpha rolls, e-collers, physical punishment etc.

But most of my advice is about telling people to grow some back bone and take control of their dog via leadership, walks etc etc.

I'm sure you wouldn't make anyone want to feel "bullied", and I didn't. But I could have done.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

rona said:


> I don't want to be on the training section much. I have no real interest, but when I see bullying I cannot just sit and be quiet.


I suggest then that you apply to be a Moderator the next time that Petforum asks for new ones. You can then patrol to your hearts content with a new hat on! :thumbup:

If the original poster or anyone esle involved in giving advice on this thread feels at all bullied then they are within their rights to report the offending posts and to complain to the Admin and/or Mods.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Yeah me, me, me!!!! Are you free tomorrow night for a burger and a beer?  You sound flipping GORGEOUS!!!!!!
> 
> Absolutely agree.
> 
> I also agree with taking it 'private' when you have a 'beef' with someone on a thread rather than bickering in public and 'nitpicking'. It is so unsightly!


I tried to contact you via pm but you ignored me



CarolineH said:


> I suggest then that you apply to be a Moderator the next time that Petforum asks for new ones. You can then patrol to your hearts content with a new hat on! :thumbup:
> 
> If the original poster or anyone esle involved in giving advice on this thread feels at all bullied then they are within their rights to report the offending posts and to complain to the Admin and/or Mods.


I have reported several posts over the last few weeks. I don't want to be a mod, I like to have my say


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

_::tips head to one side::_ Since when have I ever jumped on anyone who does not agree? :confused1: If I have then it was not my intention though I will hold my own opinions on things and if that counteracts what another person thinks then so be it. I just pull on my big girls pants and deal with it! I tend to just post my own advice on something and then move along to the next thread rather than sit there nitpicking what others have advised. Not got the concentration or energy to do that! Too much like hard work, lol!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

rona said:


> I tried to contact you via pm but you ignored me


As your PM was about someone elses posts I declined to get involved. Take it up with them, not me.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> As your PM was about someone elses posts I declined to get involved. Take it up with them, not me.


But you keep digging at me!!!!!


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> But if I post a response to somebody's problem then I don;t expect my replies to be shot down in flames and every article ever written about why the pack theory or dominance or CM is wrong, gets dragged out.


Yes, but you ended your first post with this comment:



> You can PM me if u want any further info. Otherwise I'm sure somebody will be along and tell u to use a clicker lolp


I know you think you were being funny, and it got a few laughs , but it was an ill informed and rather provocative sentence. You can't then complain when people started taking you to task!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Inkdog said:


> Yes, but you ended your first post with this comment:
> 
> I know you think you were being funny, and it got a few laughs , but it was an ill informed and rather provocative sentence. You can't then complain when people started taking you to task!


I am not complaining about the "odd" comment. but there was a time when nearly every reply I made was challenged.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I think this has gone far enough off topic now, and is in danger of becoming petty and personal.


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