# Ringcraft moan



## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

I need to moan somewhere and thought it best here, so feel free to give me more advice :lol:

We got Boe as a pet but my youngest expressed interest in showing so we enrolled in ring craft classes as I have never owned a pedigree dog before let alone shown! The breeder knew we were interested and we got a show potential pup.

So Boe is now 7 months old and we have been going fortnightly to the classes but have never really been told what to do, we just follow every one else. We have been to many shows and watched our breed being shown and know a bit from the exhibitors there.

Anyway, last night they made my daughter cry all the way home  Boe stands quite well (not the best but getting better) but sits down when bored. So DD spends a lot of time getting him stood back up with treats. So when it was her turn to be seen she got told off for treating. Although others were treating/baiting with whole sausages.

She was then made to walk him to heel rather than trotting him. She was then told off for not being able to walk him to heel (although at training she can do it perfectly but he was at ring craft and knows his show lead means trot). So she was told she is not allowed to trot him until she can walk him to heel. Others had crazy dogs who bounced round the ring, pulling all different ways but they were not told off.

She was also told off for talking to him when the 'judge' went over him although he stood perfectly still for her and allowed her to examine his teeth no bother. 

So I am not sure what to do as we get conflicting advice from people, I know we have an unusual breed (Lagotto Romagnolo) and many people don't know much about them but I do feel she was really harsh on my 10 yr old. Have told her we don't have to show him (but she wants to) nor go back but she wants to do that too! 

So should I tell her to continue doing what we have been doing (treating when he is stood nicely) and trotting him when in his show lead? I really feel we need someone to tell us how to do it rather than 100 different conflicting pieces of advice!! I just want her o relax and enjoy it but she is now tense during ring craft so god knows what she will be like in a show situation. Anyway, thank you for getting this far in my rant :thumbup:


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

The best way to teach a show dog to stand is to use a clicker as well as treats. This means that the dog will stand in the desired position you want him without having to lure him as much. Just don't treat him when the judge is about to check his teeth. 
I agree about the dog learning to walk on the lead nicely first before trotting, again this can be done with a clicker.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

They sound really odd! No wonder your daughter is confused and upset, I'm certainly confused after reading that! I haven't been to ringcraft for a while but I bait my dogs, and I let them sit when it's not our turn otherwise it's just one HUGE effort to get them to stand nicely for long periods of time when no-one's looking at them. 

I'm slightly different as I do teach my dogs to walk to heel and they don't associate having to trot with their show leads necessarily. But I've never been told to walk my dog at heel and then build up from that at ring craft. Sometimes you start steadily before building up to moving them at a faster pace so they don't get too giddy and canter, but apart from those who have toy breeds that trot when you walk anyway, I've never seen that piece of *advice*. 

Is there any other ring craft near enough for you to go to? It just sounds a very odd class and not very constructive.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I used to let Bonnie sit or even lie down if she wanted when it wasn't her turn. Helps them relax in the ring at a show too.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I can see why she was upset, and i'd be angry too they way they treated her!

After all, ringcraft is supposed to teach you what to do; therefore if she doesn't have clear idea of what she's supposed to do then that is the teacher's failings, not hers! You go there to learn, you shouldnt be expected to know everything already. 

IMO ringcraft should be fun for everyone, including the dog. If its not fun and you're not learning, then I wouldn't bother going. I'd try and find somewhere else or maybe meet with some friend's to train. 

I think puppies tend to hate showing by the time they're adults if their owners have expected too much of them while they're young. Again my opinion, but its much nicer to see energetic, happy puppies in the ring rather than ones who stand still like statues and are clearly not having. Expecting the pup to have 100% focus while in the ring or at training for a long time is unrealistic and will do more harm than good in my opinion. Its all got to be built up gradually.

As for baiting and talking to him, well that's personal preference and I am always of the opinion that you should do what you want and you should do whatever makes your dog look best. I both bait and talk to my dogs!

Whereabouts are you, if you dont mind me asking?


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I hope your daughter is OK and not feeling too down now. I had an agility teacher make me cry all the way home from the lesson before, and its just not nice! Nobody wants to be made to feel not good enough. Positive reinforcement works for people as well as dogs! Unfortunately some people are good handlers, but not good people-persons.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

As others have said I would see if I could find another ringcraft that is within traveling distance for you and your daughter. If you tell us were about you are maybe someone on here can tell you of another class near to you.

Baiting is a matter of personal preference and what suits your dog best. If I am showing my whippets I don't use bait but with my italian greyhounds I do use bait as they free stand. If I show my friends pointers I have to get rid of any food I have in my pockets as they just get silly and bounce about if they think I have food.

Showing should be made fun for your daughter and the same with ringcraft classes todays junior handlers are the adult handlers of the future and if they are not encouraged to do it then what is going to happen to showing in years to come.


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

We are in Coventry and I have looked for other ring craft classes but there don't seem to be many others.

We bait when getting him into a stand as they are a free standing breed and we never bait when the judge goes over him but I do tell her to say 'Teeth' and 'Good boy' as we are building up his confidence. It wasn't long ago he wouldn't let the 'judge' go over him but is now fine if we keep his attention. 

We also go to training class and my DD does that with him too and he walks well to heel usually but not at ring craft as he has never been asked to do that. Plus by this time my daughter was getting upset and tense and he reacted to that. Also the 'judge' kept asking her if she had treats in her hand when walking so she was trying to make Boe walk to heel on a slip lead, whilst showing her free hand to the woman to prove she didn't have treats- she was a little confused!

The weirdest thing is all the other owners were baiting and their dogs were bouncing around the ring but she never said anything to them. I am wondering if she thought Boe is older than he really is (he has only just moved up to the older class) as he is a very calm puppy anyway, maybe she thought he should be better than he is. 

I might only go when she is not judging as the others are much more positive and helpful with her.


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

It's a shame that there are no other ringcraft classes, as if this happened to me I would be heading for the hills.

I would go back when she is "judging" and if she tries anything again remind her that, in my experience anyway, ringcraft hosts are not meant to judge formally, just help stack your dog and move. Only time I would see that a problem would be a match night.

If she still continues, I would talk to the other hosts about her. 

I have just been voted onto my ringcraft commitee so I suspect I will be soon be hosting ringcraft too. I would act as training and not say "judge" or tell anyone off.


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## sh33p8us (Jul 7, 2014)

How old is your daughter, because if shes a junior it sounds like she's doing everything right. Being a junior, talking to your dog is a good thing as it usally keeps your dog focused, my ringcraft instuctor incouroges me to talk to my dog so get her to keep doing what shes doing and put in lots of work at home too


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## Barefootgirl (Sep 6, 2013)

i would be very cross if a ringcraft instructor made my 10 year old cry! As someone else said, today's keen juniors are tomorrow's adult handlers and as such, are the future of dog showing! 

This particular instructor sounds like a total idiot. You say you have been to shows and seen Lagottos being shown -your daughter needs to concentrate to producing Boe to behave like the other Lagottos he will be against. if they all walk to heel in the ring, then he needs to walk to heel (never seen a gundog breed walk to heel in the ring though!!), if they all trot on a loose slip lead, then this is what your daughter needs to practice, regardless of what this numpty says. 

My daughter never baits her Irish setters in the ring because they do get silly and over-excited at the thought of food, but she does bait the Papillons. She has a squeaky toy for the terriers. Its absolutely horses for courses and as long as what you do with your dog isn't unsporting or cruel, and it works for you, then go for it. 

I think you are right to avoid this person. If you know in advance when she will be "judging", do something else that night! I really hope your daughter doesnt lose heart. My daughter has been showing for jsut over a year, and absolutely loves it. We don't even own a show dog, she handles for other people and she has benefitted so much from it, plus she has had tremendous fun and made some lovely friends.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm sorry but *any* adult that makes a child cry, for what ever reason, really ought not to be judging or have any dealings with children.

Ringcraft, as I am led to believe, is to build confidence in handler and dog, not undermine handlers, especially children. Children should have extra considerations made for them, made to feel as though they can do EVERYTHING with their dog, certainly not make them upset or cry. I spend my working life building up confidence in children with their dogs. I make them feel like they can achieve anything they want if they work hard, yes, there are times when children do make mistakes, who doesn't, but there are ways of explaining what's right or wrong.

If that had been my daughter, I'd have stern words with that person... and the committee.


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## sh33p8us (Jul 7, 2014)

8tansox said:


> I'm sorry but *any* adult that makes a child cry, for what ever reason, really ought not to be judging or have any dealings with children.
> 
> Ringcraft, as I am led to believe, is to build confidence in handler and dog, not undermine handlers, especially children. Children should have extra considerations made for them, made to feel as though they can do EVERYTHING with their dog, certainly not make them upset or cry. I spend my working life building up confidence in children with their dogs. I make them feel like they can achieve anything they want if they work hard, yes, there are times when children do make mistakes, who doesn't, but there are ways of explaining what's right or wrong.
> 
> If that had been my daughter, I'd have stern words with that person... and the committee.


I agree. I mean ringcraft is supposed to be a modaretly laid back enviroment where new dogs (and handlers) learn the ropes off the world of dog showing. Children (juniors) In most places do have considerations made for them, whether they may be a complete beginner or a pro, but any adult who makes a child cry is stupid and should feel bad. As a junior myself I am very active at my ringcraft I help with set-up, train hard, and from time-to-time help go over the dogs. even when I don't I'm not made cry even though I've just moved to the older age group. I was 10 when i First started and loved it. 
Try to look for another ringcraft, (that WON'T make your daughter cry) and if you find one go along and try it, if it's better keep going on never lose heart Good luck for the future (And Right Now)


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## HelenVF (Dec 4, 2013)

What a horrible thing to happen to your daughter  showing should be fun for everyone, handler and dog. I went to one ringcraft when Belle was a pup and never went back as I felt they were too harsh. 

Is the breeder nearby? Would she be willing to help? Are there any other people who show dogs nearby who would help? 

I'm sure the trainer would shout at me cos I do all those things, and more lol, but we enjoy ourselves 

Helen


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