# Should We be able to 'Smack' Our Kids?



## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Father who believed he had the right to smack his two children has them taken into care by social workers
Parent, from Rotherham, told officials children benefited from smacking
But a judge has ruled his 'entrenched' views are harmful to their children
Father has now had his third child, a six-month-old girl, taken into care
Comes after three-year-old son was also ordered live with maternal uncle

By Steph Cockroft for MailOnline

Published: 16:40, 27 March 2015 | Updated: 18:19, 27 March 2015

Read more: Rotherham man who believed he had the right to smack his children has them taken into care | Daily Mail Online 
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## Guest (Mar 27, 2015)

[youtube_browser]DULNyOHnjMA[/youtube_browser]

I am one of *those* parents.
We don't punish, we don't hit, we treat our children with all the respect and care every human deserves.

In this family, we don't hit. My children have heard that from day one. 
It's okay to be angry, it's not okay to hurt someone when you're angry, not even yourself. That's another one we say often in this household. 
And because children learn more by the behavior you model than the words you say, we model peaceful behavior too.

It's not a popular stance, but it's IMO the only humane stance. I don't go around telling people how to parent their kids, but if you ask, which this thread did, I will share my beliefs. And my beliefs are that it is just as wrong to hit a child as it is to hit any adult.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I agree with Ouesi.

I'm not a parent and never intend to be one, but my opinion is that any form of violence towards children, inc simple smacking, is not only morally wrong but unnecessary and potentially harmful.

It is pretty well established that punishment, particularly physical, is not the most effective way to change behaviour, can simply suppress unwanted behaviour without changing motivation, and is high risk in terms of behavioural fallout, causing potential problems with fear or aggression. 

Plus, with people specifically, it is also well established that we learn more by what we see and experience than what we are told. Trying to teach kids to respect others, to show self control, to behave in a non-violent way themselves, etc by hitting them is bonkers imo. A case of 'do as I say not as I do'. Its hypocritical to smack kids whilst telling them its wrong to the violence to get their own way or when someone annoys them.

Lastly, I don't agree with police abusing people they arrest, I don't agree that a man should be able to hit his wife for talking back to him, and I don't agree with people using their fists to settle an argument. Makes no sense to me to condone those same actions when they are directed at some of the most vulnerable people.


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## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

I only remember being smacked once - I was doing something very dangerous and I kept going back - I got a smack. I stopped.

It's a matter of degree I suppose. 

I also remember when in hospital at the age of four with a broken leg being told by a red haired nurse that if I didn't stop crying she'd "give me something to cry about". I was four ffs with a broken bl**dy leg. What better reason was there? It's forty six years ago and I still remember her leaning over the bed 

Even saying that was abuse in my opinion whereas the smack from my mum when I was trying to grab a pan of boiling water off the stove was not!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I remember being smacked once, I do not know what it was for. I think that says it all. I see no point to it and treat my god daughters with respect and reason.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Mine have never done anything that warranted smacking. In any case I have other things to threaten them with much worse than physical violence. Like removal of the Smartphone.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Sometimes there are worse things than smacking.

I once was sent to a house where the lady told me her daughter was never to hear the word no.
I asked how she disiplined her daughter when the child did something naughty or dangerous and her answer was that she didnt. She beleived children had to learn by exploring the world around them..

The child was a spoilt manipulative nightmare.

I didnt go back. 
No smacking I can deal with, absolutly no disipline I cant.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

"Give you something to cry about" confuses me greatly. 

A child is scared/in pain/confused/tired/frustrated and you're basically saying that if they do not stop expressing this feeling, you are going to give them a reason to feel more of that feeling. I do not see the logic! :confused1:

I do not agree with smacking as a punishment. Batting a child's hand away from a hot stove/electric socket is different.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

bingolitle said:


> *I only remember being smacked once - I was doing something very dangerous and I kept going back - I got a smack. I stopped.*
> 
> It's a matter of degree I suppose.
> 
> ...


I only smacked Jake once - he kept going to stick his fingers in the wall sockets at my mums (no I hadn't thought of child proofing my mums house before this incident!) - After many times of being taken away and told NO, I slapped his hand as it went towards the socket.

He didnt go near them after that.

The nurse sounds like a total b!tch!


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2015)

As with dogs, we practice management with children who are too young to have the capability of self control or understanding dangerous consequences of their behavior.

I grew up in a culture of baby wearing, and when I had twins, I wore them not just for comfort but to keep them safe in places that were not safe for curious hands. Management.

Smacking a hand away from an electrical outlet teaches the child nothing about electricity, but a whole lot about how its okay to treat people, and that the person they depend on most in the world can sometimes act frightening and untrustworthy.

If a toddler approaches something dangerous before they are developmentally able to practice any kind of self-control or following directions, you simply remove the child. If youre in smacking distance, youre close enough to simply pick the child up and remove him/her from danger. 

I wouldnt smack a puppy for chewing something inappropriate, I would re-direct and give something appropriate to play with. Why would a child be any less deserving of compassionate, respectful treatment?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2015)

dorrit said:


> Sometimes there are worse things than smacking.
> 
> I once was sent to a house where the lady told me her daughter was never to hear the word no.
> I asked how she disiplined her daughter when the child did something naughty or dangerous and her answer was that she didnt. She beleived children had to learn by exploring the world around them..
> ...


L.R. Knost is one of my favorite authors on parenting beyond punishment.
One of her quotes:
Discipline is helping a child solve a problem. Punishment is making a child suffer for having a problem. To raise problem solvers, focus on solutions, not retributions.

Children learn all sorts of wonderful things without ever needing to be punished. Babies learn to roll over, to grasp, to talk, to walk, all without ever being punished, but simply guided and encouraged through successes. 
Likewise children learn to be polite, avoid danger, get along with siblings and peers though the same process of gentle guidance and encouragement.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I believe children should be taught respect and I don't know anyone I would respect for using violence/force against me. The trouble with smacking is when that doesn't work how far do you up the anti? do you progress to a hit or using a belt or do you find another way? If you can find another way why not just do that in the first place?


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

ouesi said:


> As with dogs, we practice management with children who are too young to have the capability of self control or understanding dangerous consequences of their behavior.
> 
> I grew up in a culture of baby wearing, and when I had twins, I wore them not just for comfort but to keep them safe in places that were not safe for curious hands. Management.
> 
> ...


Because every single time he was removed, he went back. I obviously wasn't astute enough to think of child proofing my mums home before this incident, but it was childproofed immediately afterwards.

It obviously did teach him something because he never tried to stick his fingers in a wall socket again - he would point and say 'burny' which is what I said every time I had removed him beforehand.

Please don't imply I was not a compassionate and respectful mother - I was, and I still am.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

each to their own. I don't think its right for either one side or the other to impose their views .

A quick smack is preferable to being banished to the naughty step for long periods of time. Being banished to the naughty step for too long is preferable than broken bones and bruises.

Both sides have pitfalls. My sister in law didn't believe in smacking and her 3 kids were a total nightmare and couldn't go out in public anywhere cos they could never behave...and the other extreme is the poor kids who are terrified of yet another beating.
My daughter with twins has never smacked her children and they behave well.....

I think taking away the right to smack is wrong also.

I thought that smacking wasn't banned in England? If that's still the case, then there must be more to it than just a man giving a smack to one of his children.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

as a toddler I stuck my fingers in the plug socket. My mum tried to stop me but I just carried on...so she smacked me fordoing this...so I stopped sticking my fingers in that socket but moved on to the next one and did it to that one...so she smacked me again...and again I moved to the next socket.

When we had exhausted all plug sockets and she smacked me for each one...I stopped putting my fingers in them and never did it again.

I don't think her smacking me scarred me for life either....and I don't think she was a bad parent for doing this.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I think the majority of parents who smack are caring parents and no lasting harm done...same as majority of parents who don't smack ...caring parents.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

As an adult who WAS smacked, frequently as a child by mum and teachers, then no, smacking should never be okay....

I remember being smacked frequently, I only remember one "reason" for it though, so what does that say about smacking? 

Want to know the reason? I got 3 + 4 wrong, I said 8..... I was five years old. All that taught me was not to try, if I tried and got it wrong, then I'd get walloped. 

Does smacking work? It causes more harm long term I believe, so I'd personally say no.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2015)

MCWillow said:


> Because every single time he was removed, he went back. I obviously wasn't astute enough to think of child proofing my mums home before this incident, but it was childproofed immediately afterwards.
> 
> It obviously did teach him something because he never tried to stick his fingers in a wall socket again - he would point and say 'burny' which is what I said every time I had removed him beforehand.
> 
> Please don't imply I was not a compassionate and respectful mother - I was, and I still am.


Im not implying anything about your parenting, sorry it felt that way.

As I said initially, I dont tell people how to parent. But if I am asked, which the title of this thread did, I will say what I do and explain why.

I totally understand why parents smack, because they genuinely feel they had no other option. I believe there are always other options. Whether or not folks choose to take them is of course up to each individual parent.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I find it interesting that often those who condemn the use of positive punishment on dogs often try to justify its use on children..............................


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2015)

lilythepink said:


> I think the majority of parents who smack are caring parents and no lasting harm done...same as majority of parents who don't smack ...caring parents.


I completely agree that the majority of parents are caring parents. And the majority of parents do smack their child on occasion. I believe worldwide its about 80% of children are hit by their parents.

Where I cant agree is that there is no lasting harm. There is ample scientific, peer reviewed evidence to support that spanking is harmful to children and their development.

I dont mean this in a derogatory way at all BTW, just informational. 
Soda is harmful to children too, and loving parents give their children soda all the time also.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

*Frequent* smacking, for reasons such as getting sums wrong is _completely_ different, to one slap on a hand to warn of danger.

I am bowing out now, because in _this_ argument, you absolutely _cannot_ compare the two as being equal.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> I find it interesting that often those who condemn the use of positive punishment on dogs often try to justify its use on children..............................


It is a huge frustration of mine! 
I dont understand how some people can be so well-versed in the fall-out associated with punishment when it comes to training dogs and then turn around and be so blind when it comes to dealing with children.

Im fascinated by it all really, how animals (including animals of the human variety) learn, the different parts of the brain that get engaged, the relationship piece... I could talk about all of it all day, but unfortunately its a topic thats just too close to home for so many of us, and it gets a little too emotional


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

I was smacked occasionally as a child. The baffy or the wooden spoon were favourites. The worse one though was when my Dad used to stand in the doorway and send us to our room, the challenge was to get past without getting a smack on the arse, it never worked! I'm in no way scarred by it, we had a good upbringing and we all turned out fine. We even laugh about it nowadays.

I think people should be able to bring their kids up the way they choose providing they aren't neglected or abused. I don't think the odd smack on the bum is either. 

However, I would never choose to bring my children up this way. I believe to get respect you need to have respect and I'd never lift my hands to someone I respected. I don't have kids of my own but I couldn't even imagine smacking my step daughter or any child for that matter.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I completely agree that the majority of parents are caring parents. And the majority of parents do smack their child on occasion. I believe worldwide its about 80% of children are hit by their parents.
> 
> Where I cant agree is that there is no lasting harm. There is ample scientific, peer reviewed evidence to support that spanking is harmful to children and their development.
> 
> ...


I only know my mum smacked me for putting my fingers in the plug sockets cos she told me....I don't remember at all...so can't see any lasting damage done there.

In fact, growing up I would have preferred a smack than a droning lecture that would bore the pants off me, a smack was over and done with.

I did get smacked...I am sure...but can't remember really cos it was infrequent. I was a wilful child. It was a smack that I would get and not a spanking.

I was at my grannys one weekend..she spoiled me rotten. My dad came to pick me up and I refused to go home with him to the point I screamed at him and said No! So he smacked my bottom and put me in the car. I was 4. I never screamed abuse at him again and learned the lesson with one smacked bum...job done....no lasting side effects either I don't think .


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I completely agree that the majority of parents are caring parents. And the majority of parents do smack their child on occasion. I believe worldwide its about 80% of children are hit by their parents.
> 
> Where I cant agree is that there is no lasting harm. There is ample scientific, peer reviewed evidence to support that spanking is harmful to children and their development.
> 
> ...


In my book, smack doesn't equal spanking.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

I smacked our son for exactly the same reason as McWillow,
it was over and done with in 2 seconds 
he didnt go near plugs again, he would put his hands behind his back and say 'bad'

My husband caught our twins playing with a lighter [his fault he didnt put it high enough] 
he burnt one of their toys in front of them to show what would happen to them if they 'caught on fire'
Its hair burnt, the 'skin' melted, the smell was awful
they werent punished, they were shown the ultimate consequences of their actions, in a cool calm way
they had nightmares for months

which was more traumatic for the child?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

So all of you pro smackers/hitters are fine with people smacking/hitting their dogs then?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

lilythepink said:


> In my book, smack doesn't equal spanking.


I believe what we yanks call spank is what you brits call smack.

Either way there are alternatives for those who are interested.

Parenting Beyond Punishment and Peaceful Parenting on Facebook are good great communities with lots of helpful information.

TAG teach international is another great resource for how kids learn. Clicker training for kids - literally! 

Alfie Kohn and L.R. Knost are good authors to look up...

And there are also peaceful parenting forums 
(I dont frequent them though - I get in enough trouble on dog forums! )


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> So all of you pro smackers/hitters are fine with people smacking/hitting their dogs then?


I wouldn't say I was pro or against smacking....everybody should have a choice.

Hitting just becomes an emotive word and in my book isn't the same as a smack.

I was never hit as a child...I did get my bum smacked at least once by my dad....or maybe he only ever did it once, really can't remember.

also think that parents who go too far with a smack where it becomes abuse are often abusive with their mouth as well.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I believe what we yanks call spank is what you brits call smack.
> 
> Either way there are alternatives for those who are interested.
> 
> ...


I think that if my mum hadn't smacked my hand for putting my fingers in the plug sockets all those years ago then I just may still be trying them all out now.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

My maternal granny ruled the house with plenty smacks all round. None of her 6 children were ever arrested, none were ever divorced, none were abusive to their own children, all of them always worked and they all totally respected their parents.

None did drugs, none were abusive people in general.


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

I was smacked as a child and whilst it didn't really do me much harm I don't think I would ever smack my children (if I have them).

I feel that getting to the point where you need to hit your child is a sign that you've lost control of the situation and yourself and I just think there is better ways of managing the situation.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

lilythepink said:


> I think that if my mum hadn't smacked my hand for putting my fingers in the plug sockets all those years ago then I just may still be trying them all out now.


I used to get in trouble all the time for reading past my bedtime. (I know, totally outing myself as a nerd.)
Im in my mid 40s and I still stay up reading way past my bedtime.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I used to get in trouble all the time for reading past my bedtime. (I know, totally outing myself as a nerd.)
> Im in my mid 40s and I still stay up reading way past my bedtime.


So did I (also a nerd  ) and I still do as well.

The difference is - I wasnt putting myself in a dangerous situation, and didnt get a smack for it.

One smack in 23 years doesnt make me pro-smacking - it makes me a parent that wants to give a short sharp shock, to my child, to stop him doing something that could endanger his life.

I know I said I was bowing out before - but I had to address the 'pro-smacking' comment.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

MCWillow said:


> So did I (also a nerd  ) and I still do as well.
> 
> The difference is - I wasnt putting myself in a dangerous situation, and didnt get a smack for it.
> 
> ...


Where did I say anything about pro-smacking?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> Father who believed he had the right to smack his two children has them taken into care by social workers
> Parent, from Rotherham, told officials children benefited from smacking
> But a judge has ruled his 'entrenched' views are harmful to their children
> Father has now had his third child, a six-month-old girl, taken into care
> Comes after three-year-old son was also ordered live with maternal uncle


I haven't read any of the responses to the above post as yet because I just wanted to repy to the OP directly.

I don't really understand the need to submit this as an issue simply because if it is considered an assault for me to raise my hand against another man, then why should it be regarded any differently if I were to raise that same hand against a child.:confused1:

Why not give us your views for a refreshing change.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> my beliefs are that it is just as wrong to hit any adult.


:blush:This is the only part of your post I find myself disagreeing with but for a very particular reason.

My 9 year-old son was out with his older sister one afternoon when he was attacked by a man for wearing his Manchester United football shirt.

The man took hold of him by the back of the shirt, dragged him off his bike and then threw him to the floor telling him, and I quote, Little w4nkers wear them colours.' He was then seen going into a nearby pub.

My daughter rushed home to tell me what had taken place and I immediately left with her for the pub in question.

Unfortunately the man was no longer in the establishment and despite my daughters description of him, including what he was wearing etc, no one was able to identify the person she was talking about.

So, at this point I'll tell you exactly what I told the Police. If I had gotten hold of this thug I very much doubt I would have been responsible for my actions.

Needless to say, he might have thought twice about repeating such behaviour in the future.

The man was never caught even though my daughter had seen him about the town on several different occasions. :angry:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> I wouldn't say I was pro or against smacking....everybody should have a choice.
> 
> Hitting just becomes an emotive word and in my book isn't the same as a smack.
> 
> ...


It is all semantics, when you smack a child you hit it, with your hand.

You can rename it all you like to make you feel better, but that is what a smack is, it is hitting/striking a child.

It is a bit like people who use the euphemism "nipping" instead of "biting" when their dog has done just that, it does not sound so bad...............

But thank you for your post, it was a response, it was entirely predictable.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I used to be put across my dad's knee and smacked a few times, to the point my skin was red......... this just made me scared of him. I can't remember what they were for ........ even as an adult I am scared of angering him. 

So for me, the answer is No.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> It is all semantics, when you smack a child you hit it, with your hand.
> 
> You can rename it all you like to make you feel better, but that is what a smack is, it is hitting/striking a child.
> 
> ...


yes...and as always your posts are totally predictable .

A nip from a dog would suggest not breaking the skin or leaving a bruise. A smack would be just that...not breaking the skin or leaving a bruise....why do you find it so difficult to differentiate between the 2?

Why would I need to feel better by renaming a smack as a hit?....and , in your infinite wisdom.....where does it say I ever smacked my children? where does it say I am pro smacking? Yet again you make assumptions of which you know absolutely nothing about...maybe you should stick to dogs, eh?..


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Animallover26 said:


> I used to be put across my dad's knee and smacked a few times, to the point my skin was red......... this just made me scared of him. I can't remember what they were for ........ even as an adult I am scared of angering him.
> 
> So for me, the answer is No.


The only time I ever remember having red marks on my legs was when a dinner lady at school smacked me for walking around the edge of a large wooden flower pot...still don't know what I did wrong cos I didn't touch the plants.lol.

I have 4 daughters. I was the disciplinarian cos I didn't want them growing up thinking that a man was allowed to control them. This worked well in my house.

Smacking in schools was banned in England in 1986( I think). After this date, 1 of my daughters then aged about 6 was smacked for talking by her teacher. Child was very upset, I was livid. Even if there had not been a ban on smacking by a teacher, I would still have been livid and would still have gone into school about it.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Its an interesting question coz obviously the answer should be no but then again dont kids in general seem much less respectful of authority then they used to be??
I can remember being terrified of doing something wrong coz my dad 'would kill me' (truthfully he only hit me once and it upset him way more then me!) but nowadays I seem to hear 'you cant do nothing!'quite abit from evil little toerags. I wonder if it is connected?

I remember being hit but I dont remember being scarred from it in any way. In fact my brother probably would of been taken away given how he was treated (leashed to the garden washing line, smacked, threatened to be burned, conned into eating curry filled biscuits, smacked...again by teachers). All sounds horrific but frankly he was one of those kids who tried to kill himself in some dumb way on a daily basis. He was so traumatised by this treatment that my parents still havent been able to convince him to move out 44 years later!:lol:


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

I personally feel smacking is wrong. I've been on the receiving end of a 'smack' for my own good gone too far when I was q child- admitted to hospital with broken nose and sever facial bruising.
I don't think it did me any real harm but I can't say it did me any good either. 


I do not smack my children. I don't need to. They are well behave and respect authority.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

I think 'smacking' is ok when children are doing something dangerous and remain defiant! I don't support abuse or extreme punishment. 

I was never smacked as a kid, but thinking back, we were good kids. When mum said she couldn't afford something, we didn't have a stomping tantrum and show her up, like Ive seen so many times in recent years. Then again, Ive seen mothers 'dragging' a sobbing, heart-broken child, who couldn't have something they wanted, and its brought a lump to my throat. 

I don't understand how a child can be compared to a puppy/dog. Dogs have very biddable personalities and spend their whole lives wanting to please their owners. Even mother dogs, chastise their pups and teach them right from wrong. 

I think it depends on the individual child. Ive seen some of my friends children that are never smacked who are well behaved little angels. Then again I have some friends who cant take their children anywhere because they are destructive, rude and extremely unpleasant.


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## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

ClaireLouise said:


> I personally feel smacking is wrong. I've been on the receiving end of a 'smack' for my own good gone too far when I was q child- admitted to hospital with broken nose and sever facial bruising.
> I don't think it did me any real harm but I can't say it did me any good either.


That's not what I would call a "smack"


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

bingolitle said:


> That's not what I would call a "smack"


It was only ever intended as a smack, but due to stress/depression it ended up being more. it's was not premeditated, it was a loss of control.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

ClaireLouise said:


> it was a loss of control.


9 times out of ten that is exactly what a smack is though, isn't it. A loss of control out of anger or frustration.

Having read through the thread it appears that smacking seems to be deemed 'ok' for behaviour liable to cause the child harm ...such as putting fingers in a plug, especially after the child has been told repeatidly not to.

So if that is acceptable then why don't we advise new puppy owners to smack their puppies who keep going back to chewing the corner of the settee/nosing a plug socket. Maybe it works better than interrupt and redirect?

Actually we usually advise removal of the puppy, the production of something different to do or play with or the use of a baby gate to keep puppy away. And actually all my sockets have socket safety covers *because* I have puppies and children.

A smack normally comes after a child has 'been told' which means it tends to come out of adult frustration. Which is why it can be harder than first intended.

Do I think puppies and children need boundaries and guidance towards good behaviour, of course. Do I think they need smacking? No.

We've always been a non smacking family. I was never hit as a child and neither was my brother or sister. I wouldn't wish to hit my children.

I suspect the original article posted carries a little more than a simple smack however to have evoked such drastic action.

J


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

I think a quick smack for serious repeated disobedience is ok. A slap will always redden the skin a little. There will be a lot more to the incident than reported in the daily FAIL. 

My mum used to ask me and my sister if we wanted a red leg! Rarely did we actually get one. I don't think it was inappropriate in the 80s but probably won't use threats of smacking my own LO. I will never say never though.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

catz4m8z said:


> Its an interesting question coz obviously the answer should be no but then again dont kids in general seem much less respectful of authority then they used to be??


Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers. ~Socrates, 4th century BC

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint ~ Hesiod 8th century BC

My mom grew up in the 40s and 50s and I remember her talking about how youth were viewed back then - spoiler alert: it was the same story. Youth these days are more spoiled, disrespectful, and entitled than ever.

Plus ça change...

Now... as far as respectful to authority... Im again one of *those* parents. I dont want to raise kids who respect authority. Not because I want to raise brats, but because I dont think obedience is necessarily such a good thing.

Before I go to far explaining, let me clarify that both our kids are in public school, participate in community theatre, science and academic competitions, and sports teams, and have no issues with teachers, coaches, directors, or peers. They know how to cooperate for the good of the group.

Cooperation =/= blind obedience. I want them to think about what theyre doing, what theyre agreeing to, what theyre being asked to do. 
And when we ask for obedience or else and the or else is something the child wants to avoid (a smack, a loss of a privilege, a threat, parental disapproval...), we end up teaching our children not to think and to just *do* because someone in authority says so. I think thats a dangerous mindset to encourage. I think history proves how dangerous a mindset this is.

Now, as a parent, it sure would be a hell of a lot easier if the child would just put on the damn tie for the wedding and get in the car instead of asking why he has to wear it, and me not having to explain all about social norms and how I just dont feel like dealing with the looks of disapproval today. 
But then sometimes they also surprise you with a simple so this is so you dont feel embarrassed? 
Well, yeah, I guess thats what it boils down to. 
Okay, I dont mind wearing it for you. 
And then I realize thats one pretty cool kid and Im the jerk for imposing my need for social acceptance on to my kid. But I digress.... 

Blind obedience not so good. Thoughtful cooperation and connection, not so bad


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Looking at the behaviour of some of the children who walk past our house going to school a think a smack when they were younger would have done them good. 

It's alright these parents who say my kids are well behaved I've never needed to smack them, how the hell do they know what their little darling is doing once out of your sight. We have a boy over the road good family well brought up, until his out with his mates and you wouldn't believe the change in him he can be a evil little b*****d.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Zaros said:


> :blush:This is the only part of your post I find myself disagreeing with but for a very particular reason.
> 
> *My 9 year-old son was out with his older sister one afternoon when he was attacked by a man for wearing his Manchester United football shirt.
> 
> ...


I don't blame you for feeling violent in a situation like this - what a cowardly piece of crap he was, terrorising a child! I bet he felt so proud of himself afterwards as well.

Your poor children - it must have been terrifying for them.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> Looking at the behaviour of some of the children who walk past our house going to school a think a smack when they were younger would have done them good.
> 
> It's alright these parents who say my kids are well behaved I've never needed to smack them, how the hell do they know what their little darling is doing once out of your sight. We have a boy over the road good family well brought up, until his out with his mates and you wouldn't believe the change in him he can be a evil little b*****d.


Part of the reason we dont punish is exactly this. Punishment only works when the threat of it is present. Kids are not stupid, they quickly learn when parents can enforce rules and when they cant.

So I dont want my children to follow rules just so that they dont get punished. If a child is only being good to avoid being punished, thats not genuine behavior is it? Its simply avoiding punishment (or hoping to be rewarded). Thats outside control.
For my children (what others do is up to them), I want them to learn *self* control, and to behave kindly and with respect for their fellow beings because they have empathy and genuinely care about others.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Lunabuma said:


> I think a quick smack for serious repeated disobedience is ok. A slap will always redden the skin a little. There will be a lot more to the incident than reported in the daily FAIL.
> 
> My mum used to ask me and my sister if we wanted a red leg! *Rarely did we actually get one. *I don't think it was inappropriate in the 80s but probably won't use threats of smacking my own LO. I will never say never though.


I don't agree with smacking, but I have to admit that I've done it when I've been at the end of my tether. Having said that, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've needed to.

I think that the very fact that I rarely smacked made the threat all the more terrible (Mr LB has NEVER raised a hand to woman, child or dog, as far as I am aware).

There are times when your kids are pushing you so much that you think "If I don't administer a slap now, I', going to throw the little bugger out of a window in ten minutes." Totally the wrong reason for smacking, but if it avoids infanticide . . .

Children need to know their limits - if a single smack on their (covered) bum, hand, or on the back of a leg is the only way you can get through to them, then sometimes it needs to be done.

I would never smack an ill child, a curious child or a merely cheeky child, nor would I ever smack a child on the head (I have seen this done publicly, and it is horrendous!). Worse than smacking is, I think, humiliation - I have also seen children publicly humiliated for quite minor acts and it's indescribably cruel, as is shunning a child and not allowing other family members to speak to them.

There is a big difference between a smack and a beating - and parents who beat will continue to do so no matter what the legislation is, or they will find other, more subtle, ways to make their child's life a misery.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> Looking at the behaviour of some of the children who walk past our house going to school a think a smack when they were younger would have done them good.
> 
> It's alright these parents who say my kids are well behaved I've never needed to smack them, how the hell do they know what their little darling is doing once out of your sight. We have a boy over the road good family well brought up, until his out with his mates and you wouldn't believe the change in him he can be a evil little b*****d.


I was smacked as a child. Not much and not a beating but a few hard slaps. I can remember my sister and I in bed together so I must have been 5 or 6 and us lying back to back so my Dad wouldn't be able to get to our backsides to spank us for something although I have no idea what and how we knew that he was coming up the stairs to do just that. Anyway I was still a wilful and rebellious child and an even worse teenager who swore at her parents, openly smoked in front of them, played truant from school and worse. I didn't learn to change my ways by violence or even discipline but by the example of some very good teachers who helped me turn things around by bothering to understand me and show me what I could achieve if I put my mind to it.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

"Hurt people hurt people. That's how pain patterns gets passed on, generation after generation after generation. Break the chain today. Meet anger with sympathy, contempt with compassion, cruelty with kindness. Greet grimaces with smiles. Forgive and forget about finding fault. Love is the weapon of the future."
~ Yehuda Berg

"Today the research is clear on the negative effects of spanking. To continue to advocate for such practices is no different than advocating for people to smoke, or not wear seatbelts, or not use car seats, or drink while pregnant. When we know better, we do better.....and now we know better. It's time to start advocating for children's rights." 
~ Ashley Tinsley Kagan

Im kind of reticent to say too much on this thread because it is an emotive subject and I dont want any parent to feel accused, or put-down, or defensive.

In the end we are all imperfect humans doing the best we can with our children. Were not going to get it right all the time. Were not even going to get it right most of the time. 

But at the same time, some of these attitudes towards children make me sad. Children are just as human as any adult, and should have the same right to not be hit as any adult does.


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

Smacking is assault in my opinion. I never hit my child. I removed him from situations, put him on the naughty steps and asked him to explain to me why he was there.
I wanted to teach him about consequences.
Most of the time smacking is done out of frustration ,anger or fright on the parents 'part. Did I ever feel those? Yes!!!! But I had to be in control of my emotions while my child wasn't. 
I never would hit an adult , unless in self defense or to protect my family, so why hit a child?


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I sit on the fence with this kind of thing, I won't judge other parents in the way they raise their kids as I have 4 of my own and they where al challenging in their own ways as growing up....No I didn't smack them because I used other methods that worked, locking them in cages was the best....just kidding obv, but I found with mine that when the where youngsters time out worked well and as they got older grounding...its a similar thing, taking away their freedom is something a my kids responded too. Of course prevention is better than cure so to speak, From an early age I didn't just tell them off or punish I also explained why I was doing it, this taught them early that I wasn't just being mean...imo there are other ways to teach a child right from wrong than by smacking...but parents each have their own way of raising kids.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I dont think smacking is bad, if neccessary, and i mean smack, not hitting, totally different things, i only remember being smacked once, but i am still a normal adult, hasnt made me a bad person, i have 5 children and rarely did they need a smack ,most of the time a telling off would do
I do wonder though if corporal punishment was still allowed, up to a point, would we have the trouble we now have in schools etc, no one is allowed to discipline children these days
As far as smacking an animal no never, because you cant explain to an animal why its been smacked, a child can be told, and learn from it
As for the man whose children were taken into care, i can believe it was just for smacking, my grandson who lived with his father ,after parents split up, was smacked lightly on the leg, on top of clothes, next thing Social Services sent the boy to live with his mother, who let him do as he liked, no discipline at all, 
My grandson had made it sound worse than it was to get out of going to school, and told his mother it was worse than it was,it was her who got onto social services, after living with her he got into all sorts of trouble, now she doesnt want to know


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I was smacked as a child, all it did was teach me not to get caught and fear of the people that I should have been able to trust.

I used to get quite angry when I got frustrated and hit out often...The adults in my life had essentially taught me that when angry and frustrated you hit out at the closest person - that lesson has impacted most of my adult life until I woke up to what I was doing :nonod:


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

I remember my mum hitting me and my brother once when I was a kid. She did the whole 'smacking as I'm talking' thing and she was crying while she did it.
It didn't hurt that much and she never did it again.

And the reason why she hit us was because we had actually started a fire in my brother's bedroom! We could have killed us all! 

Did we feel 'abused' because of this? No. We realised that Mum was frightened of what could have happened and we knew that our punishment, however unjust it may have seemed to outsiders, was a total reaction to this.
We actually laugh about it now, in that Mum, who never believed in corporal punishment, turned into something from a cartoon sketch because of the horror of the situation.

Personally, I don't believe in smacking children, but I also know that sometimes children's' behaviour causes adults to act totally against their best intentions.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I have now read the newspaper report on that father,and i must say from the sound of it his wife was frightened of him too, so in this instance i believe the judge was right, the father sounds like a domineering man with victorian views


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I was smacked - when I was naughty, after repeated requests to stop what I was doing because it was dangerous, etc. I was smacked, maybe ... half a dozen times during my childhood? My dad says he can count on one hand, the number of times he had to smack both me and my brother. Because once smacked, the mere threat of the smack was enough to stop us in our tracks.

Now, I might not remember the occasions, the events, my behaviour that warranted, in my parents' opinion, a smack on the bottom at that time, but back then I understood what I was getting punished for and the behaviour stopped! Once and for all. What was worse, for me, was when I said something, or asked for something after spending the day in my room (my choice - I was practically a hermit), having done nothing wrong, and my mum turned and snapped at me for some unknown reason. Now, I recognise it was probably stress after juggling a family, housework and work, but then, I was too young to understand - and that unwarranted snap at me for asking a simple question, hurt far more than a stinging smack on the bottom where the pain disappeared after a minute or so for doing something I knew I shouldn't or had been told repeatedly to stop it.

That's not abuse. I might be damaged, but not by the physical punishment meted out by my parents who I knew loved me and wanted the best for me. If my parents repeatedly beat me up and I was unable to sit down because of the pain - THAT would be abuse. Taking a belt to a child because they're misbehaving is abuse. Causing any lasting mark on a child = abuse, but a quick, sharp stinging sensation on the back of the legs, doesn't, IMHO. The pain soon dissipates, but the memory of it lasts far longer, and the threat - whether spoken, implied, or imagined, should be enough to stop the recurrence of behaviour. At least, it was for me.

The alternative punishment - the removal of the child's favourite thing - probably wouldn't have worked for me. My favourite possession growing up, was my books and I'd spend hours reading. Removing them, for however long, would have been ineffective at best because I'd have books to read in the school's reading corner, and, at worst, could affect my education, and I can't understand the logic behind it: 

A child is acting up. You, as the parent, threaten the child with removing his/her favourite possession. The child continues. You act out on your threat and remove the item - say, for a day or so. Is the child really supposed to equate their behaviour with the removal of their treasured possession? Because I'd just be thinking that my parents have stolen my favourite possession, and, rather than learn respect for them, I'd actually probably just start to resent them. :confused1: I wouldn't be thinking about how it was in consequence of my behaviour. If anything, from what I've seen with relatives and their children, it takes the child from "acting up" to full-blown tantrum and repeated requests by their parents to stop it until the child finally exhausts themselves and fall asleep. And what would you do if, or when, the child learns that, sooner or later, they'd get the item back, and simply stop and back-chat you with "Fine, take it! I'll get it back eventually anyway, and I can be playing with/doing other things in the meantime". 

Someone (Ouesi?) has pointed out that you wouldn't smack a puppy for doing something potentially dangerous (because, as jaycee has said above, you can't reason with a puppy) but neither would you remove the puppy from the room for an hour or so for the same reason, so why is removing the child's favourite possession any more acceptable? If we don't expect the puppy to be sitting alone outside the room for an hour or so, putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 4 ("Ah-ha! I'm out here because I did x, y, z") why do we expect out children to equate the removal of their possession with a behaviour they did last night?

I'm actually really interested in this.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Maybe the lack of discipline is the reason the country has so many ASBO-chav-street gangs and youth crime, and the YOI's are full, bring back borstal i say


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> the father sounds like a domineering man with victorian views


you say that like its a bad thing


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I support parent smacking, and corporal punishment in schools and capital punishment in for murderers, also Borstals and hard labour for offenders, and the return to a proper prison system away from toilets/colour TV's and X-boxes in cells plus means testing for all benefits regardless of age.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

jaycee05 said:


> As far as smacking an animal no never, because you cant explain to an animal why its been smacked, a child can be told, and learn from it


Wouldnt that be even less of a reason to smack a child? If the child can be told, and have it explained, and have a conversation about it, wouldnt that lessen the need to smack?


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> Looking at the behaviour of some of the children who walk past our house going to school a think a smack when they were younger would have done them good.
> 
> It's alright these parents who say my kids are well behaved I've never needed to smack them, how the hell do they know what their little darling is doing once out of your sight. We have a boy over the road good family well brought up, until his out with his mates and you wouldn't believe the change in him he can be a evil little b*****d.


maybe though a smack years ago wouldn't have altered his personality anyway?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> I support parent smacking, and corporal punishment in schools and capital punishment in for murderers, also Borstals and hard labour for offenders, and the return to a proper prison system away from toilets/colour TV's and X-boxes in cells plus means testing for all benefits regardless of age.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Maybe the lack of discipline is the reason the country has so many ASBO-chav-street gangs and youth crime, and the YOI's are full, bring back borstal i say


*For once i agree with you.
I strongly believe it is the lack of discipline in schools and at home, that is behind unruly kids.
Yes i smacked my kids, and if i had anymore i would do so again if i felt they needed it.*


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> I support parent smacking, and corporal punishment in schools and capital punishment in for murderers, also Borstals and hard labour for offenders, and the return to a proper prison system away from toilets/colour TV's and X-boxes in cells plus means testing for all benefits regardless of age.


When are you planning on marching into Poland?


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't smack my kids either. Discipline is very subjective. What some parents totally frown upon other parents are much more relaxed about. I allow my kids to eat biscuits and drink fizzy pop at breakfast whereas my sister would have 40 fits at that! To me its just not worth fighting over and I do pick my battles. My husband thinks me "picking battles" is letting them do what they want but I disagree. If it is important then I do have the ultimate say.

My sister and I have totally different approaches. She runs her household like an army camp with the adults being "in charge" and the children doing what they are told. Whereas I run mine more of a democracy with the kids having some say on what choices they are allowed to make.

For instance on Christmas Day she does not allow her kids to eat any chocolate or sweets during the day and only after Christmas Dinner at 8pm! I let mine eat their selection boxes in bed on Christmas Morning!

She forces her kids to go on mega long walks like 20 miles whereas I offer mine the choice to come or not but only 5 miles. If they don't fancy it then they don't have to come. My sis doesn't allow them to make any decisions of their own.

I do have ground rules at home:

Always being kind to each other
No swearing
Nice manners
Using proper grammar

Anything else is pretty much dependent on the matter at hand.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *For once i agree with you.
> I strongly believe it is the lack of discipline in schools and at home, that is behind unruly kids.
> Yes i smacked my kids, and if i had anymore i would do so again if i felt they needed it.*


Ok so how do you explain why some kids that are hit/smacked/whatever still go on to be unruly?

Not having a go, just never understood this as I find that many kids that some will call yobs are indeed hit at home :confused1:


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> I support parent smacking, and corporal punishment in schools and capital punishment in for murderers, also Borstals and hard labour for offenders, and the return to a proper prison system away from toilets/colour TV's and X-boxes in cells plus means testing for all benefits regardless of age.


And prisoners chained up to walls with only bread and water to drink..... I don't believe in corporal punishment at schools at all. I was publically humiliated at school by being pulled to the front of the class and smacked in front of everyone for getting some sums wrong at age 7! Smacking by teachers is wrong on so many levels and don't forget some teachers back in the 70's and 80's and possibly even earlier got some sort of perverted pleasure out of hitting kids.

Being hit at school has psychologically damaged me.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

StormyThai said:


> Ok so how do you explain why some kids that are hit/smacked/whatever still go on to be unruly?
> 
> Not having a go, just never understood this as I find that many kids that some will call yobs are indeed hit at home :confused1:


*But kids that have never been smacked still become yobs and unruly. Today a lot ( not all) of kids have no respect for their parents, or anyone in authority. I don't think it helps anyone when people star judging other peoples parenting practices.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Iheartcats said:


> And prisoners chained up to walls with only bread and water to drink..... I don't believe in corporal punishment at schools at all. I was publically humiliated at school by being pulled to the front of the class and smacked in front of everyone for getting some sums wrong at age 7! Smacking by teachers is wrong on so many levels and don't forget some teachers back in the 70's and 80's and possibly even earlier got some sort of perverted pleasure out of hitting kids.
> 
> Being hit at school has psychologically damaged me.


*I was hit with a ruler in the front of my classmates,because my writing wasn't straight. I've also had a blackboard rubber thrown at me. It didn't bother me.*


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't "discipline" my kids and they are great kids. I don't think you need to smack kids to make them behave. Often, just having attentive, loving parents who take time to explain why they can't have something, do something and teach them to be resilient, thoughtful, considerate and well manners. This whole "do as I say not what I do" is just so old hat these days.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

my dad (born 1952) was born in the era where teachers using rulers to hit them across the hands were common place. He hasn't grown up hitting us as kids.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Ok so how do you explain why some kids that are hit/smacked/whatever still go on to be unruly?
> 
> Not having a go, just never understood this as I find that many kids that some will call yobs are indeed hit at home :confused1:


Its the same dizzying back and forth we get in to in dog training.

Some dogs need a heavier hand.
Extreme behavior calls for a heavier hand.
Dogs used to behave better back when people used choke chains and rolled up newspaper.
I hit my dog and she still loves me.
etc. etc. etc.

Again, not trying to make anyone feel defensive or bad about their parenting.
We are all simply doing the best we know to do.

There are wonderful parents out there who occasionally spank and there are gawdawful parents out there who have never laid a hand on their children. 
Just as there are inept clicker trainers whos dogs are confused and stressed, and excellent compulsion trainers whos dogs are happy to work every day. 
Much of it is the relationship you forge, not whether or not you punish.

However, for me, the evidence is clear that punishment is not necessary, and can potentially be detrimental. Im happy to see the paradigm shifting. When we know better, we do better.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *But kids that have never been smacked still become yobs and unruly. Today a lot ( not all) of kids have no respect for their parents, or anyone in authority. I don't think it helps anyone when people star judging other peoples parenting practices.*


Exactly hitting kids or not they can still turn out to be "yobs" 
So my question has always been if it makes no difference then why do it?

My parents hitting me didn't teach me respect, it taught me to fear them...I behaved no because I respected them, I behaved because I feared the punishment more.

I am not judging parenting styles (I'm not a parent for a start so wouldn't have a clue lol), I just don't understand this mindset that violence (smacking or hitting is all violence) makes kids respect.
Not trying to change your mind on anything, I am just trying to understand that is all.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I was hit with a ruler in the front of my classmates,because my writing wasn't straight. I've also had a blackboard rubber thrown at me. It didn't bother me.*


The worst thing was I was so traumatised that when I went home to tell my mum she didn't believe me. Her exact words were "Oh don't be silly teachers don't hit children these days". It was 1977! Trouble was my mum is german born and teachers hitting children was outlawed after the war and thought it was the same here.

She still feels guilty (and I make her remember it) for not going up to the school to fight my corner for me.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *For once i agree with you.
> I strongly believe it is the lack of discipline in schools and at home, that is behind unruly kids.
> Yes i smacked my kids, and if i had anymore i would do so again if i felt they needed it.*


teachers and schools are there for teaching...discipline should be done at home so the teachers can do their jobs though.

I disciplined my daughters...they went to school to learn and apart from the youngest, we never had any issues with behaviour.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Ok so how do you explain why some kids that are hit/smacked/whatever still go on to be unruly?
> 
> Not having a go, just never understood this as I find that many kids that some will call yobs are indeed hit at home :confused1:


same can be said of kids not smacked though can't it?


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't know about kids, but there's some parents I'd like to smack


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> teachers and schools are there for teaching...discipline should be done at home *so the teachers can do their jobs thoug*h.


and when teachers have no respect or discipline, what then?

the cane, or even just the threat of the cane was a good deterrent


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Also if you smack/hit a child and that builds resentment in the child how do you deal with it when that child is bigger and takes you on. That I'm sorry to say is exactly what I did to my parents, from 12-13 yrs of age I stood up, looked them in the eye and said "come on then" and as I said earlier I wasn't hit just the occasional smack/bottom spank. It gave my parents no more control of me as a young teenager.

This could so easily be a conversation in dog chat about CM and shock collars.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I was hit with a ruler in the front of my classmates,because my writing wasn't straight. I've also had a blackboard rubber thrown at me. It didn't bother me.*


lol. my maths teacher used to chuck the board rubber thing ...and chalk too.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

when did all this hairy fairy dont smack the kids start, and when did the unruly asbo-chavvy street kids with attitude start....about the same time id say


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> lol. my maths teacher used to chuck the board rubber thing ...and chalk too.


and we learned to either behave, or duck


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> and when teachers have no respect or discipline, what then?
> 
> the cane, or even just the threat of the cane was a good deterrent


But kids were still caned...so was it a deterrent and did it work? No...cos kids still played up.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

Colliebarmy said:


> when did all this hairy fairy dont smack the kids start, and when did the unruly asbo-chavvy street kids with attitude start....about the same time id say


Were you smacked as a child?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> I support parent smacking, and corporal punishment in schools and capital punishment in for murderers, also Borstals and hard labour for offenders, and the return to a proper prison system away from toilets/colour TV's and X-boxes in cells plus means testing for all benefits regardless of age.


So why are there still murderers in countries with the death penalty and thieves in countries where they cut off their hands? Where do you think prisoners should go to the toilet? does this logic apply to all prisoners no matter the crime - traffic offenders for instance? What the heck has means testing of benefits got to do with anything? - keeping people cold/hungry does what exactly?


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *I was hit with a ruler in the front of my classmates,because my writing wasn't straight. I've also had a blackboard rubber thrown at me. It didn't bother me.*


My Mum (born in the early 50s) went through that because she is left-handed and just couldn't write with her right hand. But it _did_ bother her. She felt totally humiliated by this and simmers about it even to this day!

She was so affected by this that because two of us are left-handed, she insisted on talking to all of our teachers and making sure we were not singled-out because of it. But by the 80s the teachers just looked at her with amazement and said they would never do such a thing.
She still worried about it though


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> This could so easily be a conversation in dog chat about CM and shock collars.


Indeed. Somehow, a short sharp pain in punishment is thought unsuitable for dogs but suitable for kids 

And the ability to hold attention and get the respect of a classroom full of teenagers has nothing to do with how big your cane is or how threatening you can be. (And yes, for my sins I was a teacher back in the day). Again, like with dogs use of force is never a good way to teach.

J


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> when did all this hairy fairy dont smack the kids start, and when did the unruly asbo-chavvy street kids with attitude start....about the same time id say


I have no idea how old you are but my parents were teenagers in the 50's and boy did they get up to all sorts - teenage sex, rock and roll and then along came the 60's freelove and drugs and

BBC ON THIS DAY | 18 | 1964: Mods and Rockers jailed after seaside riots

in the 70's my sister went through a skinhead phase, feather cut hair wearing Ben Shermans and Crombie coats her boyfriends wore jeans tucked in Doc Martins

BBC - British Style Genius - Street Style - Skinheads

Skinheads: a photogenic, extremist corner of British youth culture | Art and design | The Guardian

and then of course we had punk - spitting and swearing and wearing bin liners and chains.

We've all been there at some point surely?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

silvi said:


> My Mum (born in the early 50s) went through that because she is left-handed and just couldn't write with her right hand. But it _did_ bother her. She felt totally humiliated by this and simmers about it even to this day!
> 
> She was so affected by this that because two of us are left-handed, she insisted on talking to all of our teachers and making sure we were not singled-out because of it. But by the 80s the teachers just looked at her with amazement and said they would never do such a thing.
> She still worried about it though


*I have never understood why being left handed was frowned upon. Very strange.*


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I have no idea how old you are but my parents were teenagers in the 50's and boy did they get up to all sorts - teenage sex, rock and roll and then along came the 60's freelove and drugs and
> 
> BBC ON THIS DAY | 18 | 1964: Mods and Rockers jailed after seaside riots
> 
> ...


Exactly. Adults have been complaining about "the youth of today" since about forever - I never bunked school, never smoked or did drugs... my parents did all three as youngsters. Hell, my dad went to do work experiance in a bank and the kids were allowed to count money, and someone stole a note (a pound or something minor) - the whole class was punished and they never did find the note... (My dad said he always did think it foolhardy to give 14yos a load of money to count) - so basically a kid _STOLE FROM A BANK DURING WORK EXPERIENCE! _ in 60s London, yet todays youth are _worse? _

Youth violence isnt new. Youth being "disrespectful" isnt new. The older generation have always considered themselves better, and the older generation have always considered youngsters worse than previously. Circles and circles.

On the note of smacking, I was smacked as a kid - not often and it never even really hurt but was more of a shock to the system. My mum nearly always apologised for it after a while, and would explain why she was angry which was probably more effective than the initial smack (I never remember my dad smacking me, or even shouting tbh.. he is very laid back). I was a sensitive kid though, and was always more concerned about my parents disappointment than their discipline.

I dont have kids, and I dont know what kind of parent I would be. But I cant see myself smacking a child really - I dont think I *could*. But then again I dont think I would be any great shakes as a parent either.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> you say that like its a bad thing


Well isnt it? in those days it wasnt just a smack it was often a belt, with a buckle on it, 
Do you think thats a good thing then?, my ex husband had a father who beat him with a belt, [this in the 50s], and it must have rubbed off because he picked out 2 year old up by his arm, swung him around and was going to whack him hard, on the bottom, but i stopped it, the baby didnt even deserve a smack,cant remember what it was for now, but nothing which warranted that,


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Iheartcats said:


> The worst thing was I was so traumatised that when I went home to tell my mum she didn't believe me. Her exact words were "Oh don't be silly teachers don't hit children these days". It was 1977! Trouble was my mum is german born and teachers hitting children was outlawed after the war and thought it was the same here.
> 
> *She still feels guilty (and I make her remember it) for not going up to the school to fight my corner for me*.


Now that [bolded] I find more awful than smacking

to repeatedly cause someone mental anguish, is more torture than a short sharp smack to the hand or leg


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> Maybe the lack of discipline is the reason the country has so many ASBO-chav-street gangs and youth crime, and the YOI's are full, bring back borstal i say


I totally agree with you here, its only since schools were stopped from giving corporal punishment and parents were told they shouldnt smack their children, that this countrys kids have got worse, not all of them of course, but i wouldnt want it to go back to abuse, of any kind
There are a lot of people now saying bbring back National Service, and again up to a point i think it would be a good thing, but wouldnt want any of my family sent off to wars at 18, but a similiar thing might be good for instilling discipline in the ones who are trouble
Just want to add that my brother RIP sadly not with us now, when he was a teenager in the 1950s got into some kind of trouble, no ideawhat,as i was only very young,hevwould be about 14-15 i think, he was sent to borstal, and he had to scrub floors with a toothbrush and some awful tasks, but he never got into trouble again, i do know it cured him


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## javi (Feb 10, 2015)

So to flip the coin on the ones that believe it's ok to smack a child...do you also think it's ok to smack a dog???
Just curious.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Consider all the stuff in the news...

Clarkson hitting someone at work, mp's lying, cheating and defrauding the public, the mass cover up of paedophilia amongst mp's, celebs and the church etc. Most if not all of those people are from that era of smacking at home and caning in school. Did it do them good? Make them decent, honourable, law abiding citizens? Clearly not!

I do think a lot of people see smacking as an all or nothing issue, where its a black and white case of smacking = discipline / involved parenting and not smacking = no discipline, no control / lack of parenting. But this is not the case. There are dozens of ways to influence a child's behaviour, not even a simple case of smacking versus some other punishment. The 4 quadrants of behaviour theory (positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment) apply as much to humans as to all other species. We also have learning by example, social learning, extinction, and all the benefits of language. 

Unruly children may be the way they are for any number of reasons, you can't just blame it all on whether or not they were smacked.

As to the question of "does it matter what parents do?" (regarding mild snacking not serious abuse) yes I think it does matter. The entrenched belief that it is ok to lash out in anger /deliberately cause pain or fear / use violence to get your own way etc is something I find very worrying. It then becomes an issue of where you draw the line. A smack on the leg is fine why not the face? With a palm or with a belt? Or a fist? If it doesn't work do you escalate? Is it ok to smack for serious offenses? Who decides what constitutes serious? The tired, angry, frustrated parent? Just a potentially slippery slope imo.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

heres how the law defines 'reasonable punishment', which *is *allowed

Smacking Your Children

it goes on to define unreasonable punishment. and. what would be construed as 'abuse'
I imagine the person in the original article fell somewhere into the latter


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> I support parent smacking plus means testing for all benefits regardless of age.


:001_huh:



rottiepointerhouse said:


> What the heck has means testing of benefits got to do with anything?


Absolutely nothing at all RPH. CB just likes to go that extra mile. :yesnod:

Which is just bloody typical of Taxi drivers.:lol:


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## Jackie99 (Mar 5, 2010)

I haven't read the thread at all, but I strongly disagree with smacking children, I haven't children myself yet but I know I wouldn't want a relationship based on fear and lashing out at my child, can any parent really say they smack their child for the childs benefit or if honest out of pure frustration? I was never smacked as a child and I believe because of that I respect my Mother much more and we have a much more open/stronger relationship than if she'd resorted to hitting to communicate/teach me. There are other ways of learning a child than smacking them.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Have to admit, whenever and wherever this topic comes up I find it odd that so many people who are totally against physical punishment being used with animals think it's perfectly fine to use it with children. I'm not going to lie, if an emergency situation arises I may well smack a childs hand or a dogs nose away from something dangerous. There may well be better ways of dealing with it but in an emergency you're not really stopping to think. But as a teaching method? I'm not convinced it has a place with kids or animals. I don't hit my dog to teach him how to behave, why would it be okay for me to hit my child in order to do so? If there are better ways to teach a dog then surely there are better ways to teach a child?

I was smacked as a child, I don't feel it did me any harm. But it wasn't effective. Given the choice of punishments I'd have chosen a smack over pretty much any other. It was over and done with and forgotten about in minutes. And I generally carried on doing whatever it was that got me smacked anyway. As did my brother.

And to be honest, most smacks I've seen doled out or been the recipient of have been down to frustration and anger on the part of the person doing the smacking.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> and i mean smack, not hitting, totally different things


They are absolutely the SAME thing.


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

I think I err on the side of no, its not right to smack children however I do not have children myself so have no practical experience of having to discipline a child or make them understand why they shouldn't behave in a certain way. The only parallel I can draw is that I would not think it right to smack my dog so logically thinking I would apply the same logic to my children (if I had any). However I do think that generally speaking (there are exceptions of course before anyone leaps on me) we have a generation of kids with very little or no respect and frankly it absolutely appalls me. I don't know what on earth is to be done about it. But I don't think you teach respect through smacking.

I was smacked as a kid, my mam could take me absolutely anywhere and I wouldn't dream of playing her up. And I have grown up to be a respectful adult. But yes, she did scare me! So the behaving was probably due to not wanting to receive a smack. We get on great now and no lasting harm of course, but I wouldn't say we are ultra close. No idea if that relates to smacking or not though. Probably not.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

javi said:


> So to flip the coin on the ones that believe it's ok to smack a child...do you also think it's ok to smack a dog???
> Just curious.


And let's say they're doing something you have repeatedly asked them not to do, is it okay to smack another adult?


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> They are absolutely the SAME thing.


Not in my eyes, a smack is not hard, leaving no marks, hitting is a very hard smack, my twins who were only smacked, and i mean lightly,not hit with any force, just laugh about it now, now, [and they are in teir 40s now ] they dont hold it against me because they know i wouldnt have hurt them, just to let them know what they did was wrong
My mother smacked me across the face once, quite hard, for coming in late, and not letting her know, i dont hold it against her, she was worried about me


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> and when teachers have no respect or discipline, what then?
> 
> the cane, or even just the threat of the cane was a good deterrent


so a teacher can only gain respect when a child is smacked? did I get that right?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> and i mean lightly,not hit with any force, just laugh about it now


I think it's semantics. Hit, smack, slap. strike... to me they're all the same thing.

And if one is using a "smack" as a deterrent or punishment, I honestly cannot see how something that doesn't hurt would deter or punish anyway....


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Reading through this thread, taking ALL opinions on board, as well as personal experience, my overall thought is it boils down to nature versus nurture. Some children who are never smacked in their lives are good, decent members of society, while others are rotten little brats who can't be taken anywhere. 

Likewise, some children who are smacked are decent, well behaved members of society and others are rotten little brats where physical punishment doesn't do any good.

So are kids born inherently predisposed to being good or bad, and is it actually possible to teach a bad kid the right way to behave?


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I am sure they wouldnt like it even if it wasnt hard enough to hurt, might sting a bit, 
I think there are too many people these days that let children get away with too much, even serious crimes dont get serious punishments, and thats because too many children are spoilt brats,and think they have a right to do anything and no consequences


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I think I might verbally wallop any child I had responsibility for, if they donated to this crazy scheme. At least when bands broke up when I was little, I just tore up my posters, not much else you could do.

Buy One Direction by Katie P - GoFundMe


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> I am sure they wouldnt like it even if it wasnt hard enough to hurt, might sting a bit,
> I think there are too many people these days that let children get away with too much, even serious crimes dont get serious punishments, and thats because too many children are spoilt brats,and think they have a right to do anything and no consequences


I guess it's something we'll never agree on  I will never fathom how anyone could believe that the threat of pain and violence (don't dress it up, because that's what it is) is an effective method of teaching children consequences. If they grew up and thumped you (or someone else) for doing something they didn't like/disagreed with, you wouldn't have much to complain about would you? You'd have taught your lesson very effectively.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I think there are far better ways of teaching a child, and guiding a child to make better decisions, than simply lashing out in anger. After all what does a smack teach? Don't do that. But doesn't really explain anything in terms of communication and relationship building. 

I was smacked infrequently growing up, and funnily enough usually by my very caring and gentle natured mum, over that of my abusive dad. She said I knew I'd done wrong when SHE hit me. And there was a clear difference between the 'punishment' she dolled out, and the venom my dad did. It's not had any bearing on our relationship as I've grown up. But I feel in some senses there was a lack of communication. The times I was smacked it usually caused arguments with me telling her how much I hated her  so wasn't as effective as my mum had probably envisaged ( which was why I probably got very few smacks )


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I rather think there`s more to it than that, particularly as his family have their other children, one of whom is under a year old.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> I guess it's something we'll never agree on  I will never fathom how anyone could believe that the threat of pain and violence (don't dress it up, because that's what it is) is an effective method of teaching children consequences. If they grew up and thumped you (or someone else) for doing something they didn't like/disagreed with, you wouldn't have much to complain about would you? You'd have taught your lesson very effectively.


I was smacked as a child by my parents...not very often I must admit...but never in a million years would I ever have raised a hand to either of my parents ...either way back then when I was a teenager or even now...it wouldn't happen.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Wiz201 said:


> ]my dad (born 1952) was born in the era where teachers using rulers to hit them across the hands were common place[/B]. He hasn't grown up hitting us as kids.


I was born in 1953 - I still have the callouses across my knuckles!

I don't think there should be the sort of casual brutality I experienced from some (not all, by any means) of our teachers.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Iheartcats said:


> *The worst thing was I was so traumatised that when I went home to tell my mum she didn't believe me.* Her exact words were "Oh don't be silly teachers don't hit children these days". It was 1977! Trouble was my mum is german born and teachers hitting children was outlawed after the war and thought it was the same here.
> 
> She still feels guilty (and I make her remember it) for not going up to the school to fight my corner for me.


My mother believed me - but then I got another hiding for misbehaving at school. So I stopped complaining about it.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Were you smacked as a child?


It made him the man he is today.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

lostbear said:


> It made him the man he is today.


Actually, I was genuinely curious. Most people who support corporal punishment were punished that way themselves (not surprising given that the rates of corporal punishment worldwide are so high).

But I was also wondering because CB was saying hitting makes a child respectful, but CBs online persona is not a very respectful one.

Granted, there are different interpretations of respect. To me, fear of consequences does not equal respect. But I know not everyone agrees with that...


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## javi (Feb 10, 2015)

I was "smacked" as a child and never would i want to put my children through the sheer fear and humiliation i went through.

I love my parents to bits and know they only did what they thought was best at the time, but the humiliation really was so much worse than the physical punishment itself and i couldn't bare for any child of mine to experience that feeling.

My kids are well behaved and very respectful and i've never had to hit them ever...they are happy, healthy, well balanced children that also seem to be well tuned into feelings and emotion and i'm proud of the way they have turned out despite never having to be "smacked" and physically or emotionally hurt!


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> I was smacked as a child by my parents...not very often I must admit...but never in a million years would I ever have raised a hand to either of my parents ...either way back then when I was a teenager or even now...it wouldn't happen.


Neither would i, and the only kids i have ever known to hit their parents wrre 2 very spoilt brats when all of a sudden they couldnt get their own way, 
You dont have to lash out in anger to give a smnack, then it * would * be wrong


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> Reading through this thread, taking ALL opinions on board, as well as personal experience, my overall thought is it boils down to nature versus nurture. Some children who are never smacked in their lives are good, decent members of society, while others are rotten little brats who can't be taken anywhere.
> 
> Likewise, some children who are smacked are decent, well behaved members of society and others are rotten little brats where physical punishment doesn't do any good.
> 
> So are kids born inherently predisposed to being good or bad, and is it actually possible to teach a bad kid the right way to behave?


Its kind of like dogs though isnt it? Some people do everything wrong, they hit the dog with newspaper for peeing in the house, beat the dog and take food away if he gets guardy, and the dog ends up being a great dog anyway. 
Meanwhile the person who does everything right with their dog ends up with a reactive mess after one too many bad incidents.

Sometimes life just aint fair eh? 

But none of that justifies not trying to do the best we can with the information we now have.

I think trying to condense all that encompasses parenting a child in to whether or not the parent uses corporal punishment is a flawed premise from the start.

However, eliminating corporal punishment *is* a good start. We know a) it doesnt work long term, and it certainly doesnt create any self-control, and b) it can potentially damage the childs emotional and physical development.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

javi said:


> I was "smacked" as a child and never would i want to put my children through the sheer fear and humiliation i went through.
> 
> I love my parents to bits and know they only did what they thought was best at the time, but the humiliation really was so much worse than the physical punishment itself and i couldn't bare for any child of mine to experience that feeling.
> 
> My kids are well behaved and very respectful and i've never had to hit them ever...they are happy, healthy, well balanced children that also seem to be well tuned into feelings and emotion and i'm proud of the way they have turned out despite never having to be "smacked" and physically or emotionally hurt!


I dont think my children ever feared me, and i know they respect me becaue of the way they are with me, i would never want to have respect out of fear, i would never hurt any child and when they were smacked and as i said it was very rare probably no more than 3 times in all, and my daughter was never smacked, it was more of a tap, never made any marks i would have been devastated to think i had really hurt them


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> and when teachers have no respect or discipline, what then?
> 
> Respect needs to be earned. My son and daughter really adore their teachers who treat them kindly with respect and dignity as young adults. Back in the old days teachers didn't show any kindness to pupils. These days its much more acceptable for teachers and pupils to have a much more relaxed relationship with rewards and sanctions for good and bad behaviour. Hitting kids just isn't necessary anymore.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Iheartcats said:


> Respect needs to be earned. My son and daughter really adore their teachers who treat them kindly with respect and dignity as young adults. Back in the old days teachers didn't show any kindness to pupils. These days its much more acceptable for teachers and pupils to have a much more relaxed relationship with rewards and sanctions for good and bad behaviour. *Hitting kids just isn't necessary anymore.*


so your saying its not needed NOW?

whats changed?

your "relaxed relationship" is the core problem

we had "kind teachers" but when needed there was a fist inside that glove...

(and we knew it) and a ruler/cane in the heads office


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> *my daughter was never smacked, it was more of a tap,* never made any marks i would have been devastated to think i had really hurt them


ahh, the crux of it is, whats a tap and whats a smack then, there has to be control or you get kids OUT of control

Though to be honest I think society has let it go too far and its too late now


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## Mundane (Jun 9, 2014)

I was smacked as a child as was my sister I see nothing went with a little tap.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

Colliebarmy said:


> ahh, the crux of it is, whats a tap and whats a smack then, there has to be control or you get kids OUT of control
> 
> Though to be honest I think society has let it go too far and its too late now


Interesting...
You see one kid attacking a teacher.

I see multiple kids doing whatever they know to do to stop and help. I see one student trying to get him to stop, eventually pulling him off the teacher, I hear several going to go get help, I hear another telling the attacking kid to chill...

You see one child who has lost it - for what reason we dont know, and see doom and gloom ahead.

I see one kid who has lost it and many, many others trying to do the right thing. I see hope....

And I guess thats kind of what it boils down to when we look at our kids.
When we see a child acting out, do we see defiance or a child struggling to be heard and validated?
When we see a child misbehaving, is it willful disrespect, or are we simply asking something of a child who is developmentally not yet able to do what were asking?
When a child lies are they sneaky little deceivers or did we teach them deception as a means of avoiding punishment?
And when a teenager becomes sulks and disconnects are they sullen brats or are they protecting their hearts from being broken yet again by those who are supposed to love them unconditionally?

Children who need love the most often show it in the least loving of ways. (Barring true brain anomalies, and even those kids still deserve to be loved.)

Likewise, when we see a parent struggling with a difficult situation with their child, will we look on with compassion (regardless of what tactic that parent chooses), or will we judge and blame?

Its a whole paradigm shift....


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> so your saying its not needed NOW?
> 
> whats changed?
> 
> ...


So I take it that means you never misbehaved, never rebelled, never got drunk, have never been rude to anyone etc etc etc? My OH went to boarding/public school where the cane was used frequently and he was hit around the head by his house master's wife for reading in bed. He has done well for himself now but had a long period of rebelliousness and drifting.

There are so many different reasons for why children might not be as well behaved at school today as they were in years gone by (if that is even the case). Many start school without the necessary social skills for instance

Many young pupils 'can't communicate' - BBC News

also the number of homeless children is at a 6 year high with over 90,000 children living in temporary accommodation such as bed & breakfast or hotels.

Homeless children at six-year high, figures show - BBC News

A lot of pupils are also suffering from mental health problems which are completely under resourced with more than 1 in 6 teachers saying at least a quarter of pupils in their school are affected.

More pupils have mental health issues, say school staff - BBC News


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

I don't get this whole 'kids these days have no respect' thing. I've been teaching for 10 years in both primary and secondary, in both high and low socio-economic areas, in both the UK and NZ, and I just DON'T see it. Yes, of course there are the few children every year with behavioural issues, but it's not a lack of _respect_. Even when I was young, fresh-faced, new to teaching with shocking behavioural management skills, most children't didn't take advantage of that.

From MY point of view, the youth of today are a pretty good bunch actually.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Children who need love the most often show it in the least loving of ways. (Barring true brain anomalies, and even those kids still deserve to be loved.)


Sometimes those children are crying out to be heard in the only way they know how


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I think that maybe it would have been better, if you wanted to discuss this, to use something like the pope's comments rather than a case where only some of the facts can ever be public. 
Are the popeâs comments on smacking children right? | The panel | Comment is free | The Guardian

But no we should not "be able" to 'smack' 'our' 'kids', it is not harmless, they are not possessions, we can't do whatever we want with them.


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## Mad4Collies (Jun 19, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Now... as far as respectful to authority... Im again one of *those* parents. I dont want to raise kids who respect authority. Not because I want to raise brats, but because I dont think obedience is necessarily such a good thing.
> 
> Cooperation =/= blind obedience. I want them to think about what theyre doing, what theyre agreeing to, what theyre being asked to do.
> And when we ask for obedience or else and the or else is something the child wants to avoid (a smack, a loss of a privilege, a threat, parental disapproval...), we end up teaching our children not to think and to just *do* because someone in authority says so. I think thats a dangerous mindset to encourage. I think history proves how dangerous a mindset this is.
> ...


I truly, truly love reading your posts ouesi. This ^^ sums the argument up for me against hitting a child in the name of learning.

I'm 31. There were three of us under the age of two and then my younger sister came along three years later. We had a tough childhood. My mother was stressed out and took her frustration out on us. One of her favorite anecdotes is me as a toddler reaching for a cup of tea as I was held in someones lap. Apparently, I wouldn't let up, so my dad put my hand in the hot tea to stop me. I don't remember this but I must have learned that hands near cups = pain because I didn't do it again.

This lesson continued throughout my childhood - to do something bad = pain.

Smacking/tapping is just a euphemism for hit. I was hit. I remember having my head banged off the kitchen table because my dad was trying to do my homework with me one evening, we were both tired and he got frustrated.

Another favourite anecdote of my mothers is the wooden spoon - if you were in trouble, you got the wooden spoon. It may well have been a way of detaching herself away from inflicting pain on us by not using her hands. I remember this being used on my sister and the force of its use broke it.

I also remember biting my nails alot. My mother bought some of that deterrent that was like nail polish and tasted horrible. I used to just suck it off and continue biting my nails. The solution was to cut my fingernails so short, they bled, so I didn't have any nails to bite.

We recently had a converstation about this, my mam and I. Her excuse was that she was overwhelmed, had four toddlers and it was hard. I forgave her but I will never forget. It has forged me into the person I am today and the reason I highlighted your post Ouesi was that, I learned from a young age to have a tremendous amount of fear for people in authority. So much so, that, I'm now self-employed. So I guess I have my parents to thank for that.

So, for each of you parents, who advocates the use of physical punishment and how your children are so well turned out in spite of it/despite it - my parents are proud of me too.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I have to say aside a few probs that the average kids go through mine are 23, 21, 20 and 16 and are respectful to others have no criminal records and will do anything for anyone...unless I ask them to make me a cuppa  I live in a town where we do have a lot of disrespectful kids with criminal records as long as your arm,in fact we where featured on channel 4's Skint last season...which was totally staged by the way....producers paid kids to act out for the show... I think this varies from place to place but everywhere has not just kids but adults like this....many of the kids I speak of have parents who are probably worse in all honesty. I will be honest, some kids round here I will avoid because I have tried to be ok with them and it's been like speaking to a brick wall so I can't be bothered with them...not my problem ....I haven't got the time of day for that, but others who are little buggers are ok if you speak to them like they're human beings and not little sh1ts. Everywhere has kids that are ok...kids that are not so...but as I write this we have a couple fighting like a pair of blokes over her having an affair...actually 3 apparently...him keeping money back from her...them both shouting over their kids who are probably upstairs in bed listening to their parents air their laundry in public ...smashing stuff etc etc right outside my house. I rang the police over an hour ago and still no one has shown up....Everywhere has some probs....and it aint just kids either. Oh and I have to say....for waking me up from a very rare good sleep....I do feel like going out and giving these 2 adults a thick ear even if I wouldn't actually do it lol


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> we had "kind teachers" *but when needed there was a fist inside that glove...*


And this^^^ is the regime you chose to adopt and raise your children under is it?:sad:

A careless fist can quite easily black an eye and fracture the orbit in which it is situated. Crack a cheekbone, dislocate/break a jaw and knock several teeth out. Worse still, a fist can knock someone unconscious and the resulting fall to the floor cause untold damage inside the cranial cavity.

Do you first consider what you type before submitting it or is everything posted in abject ignorance?

Perhaps you do it strategically just for the rise?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I wouldn't hit a child or an animal. I do find it interesting that some people will leap to the defence of positive training if someone says all it does is produce misbehaving dogs then use the same arguement for children. What is the difference between well my sister never puts a choke chain on her dogs and they run riot and my sister never hits/insert word that sounds better and they run riot?

And don't try to say children these days have no respect. People have been complaining about the next generation being the worst ever and the downfall of society since there has been a next generation to whine about.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> yes...and as always your posts are totally predictable .
> 
> *Yes, I am very consistent, something that I have found has served me well over the years in the field of training. *
> 
> ...


I am not sure where in my post I accused you of smacking your children? Perhaps my eyesight is not as good as it was or my memory, could you please point out where I made that allegation? 

I have made NO assumptions, you on the other hand have, as usual, inferred from my post issues I have not implied and interpreted it to suit your own purpose.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> .
> 
> I don't understand how a child can be compared to a puppy/dog. Dogs have very biddable personalities and spend their whole lives wanting to please their owners. Even mother dogs, chastise their pups and teach them right from wrong.
> 
> ...


The fact that children are destructive, rude and extremely unpleasant is not, I would suggest down to the fact they are not smacked and can actually be because they ARE hit.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Fear and respect are two very different things and hitting imo does not earn you respect or teach it in general.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

jaycee05 said:


> I dont think smacking is bad, if neccessary, and i mean smack, not hitting, totally different things,
> 
> But I no they are not.
> 
> ...


And what does a child learn from being hit?

That it is an entirely acceptable method to use instead of several other options................


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> I was smacked - when I was naughty, after repeated requests to stop what I was doing because it was dangerous, etc. I was smacked, maybe ... half a dozen times during my childhood? My dad says he can count on one hand, the number of times he had to smack both me and my brother. Because once smacked, the mere threat of the smack was enough to stop us in our tracks.
> 
> Now, I might not remember the occasions, the events, my behaviour that warranted, in my parents' opinion, a smack on the bottom at that time, but back then I understood what I was getting punished for and the behaviour stopped! Once and for all. What was worse, for me, was when I said something, or asked for something after spending the day in my room (my choice - I was practically a hermit), having done nothing wrong, and my mum turned and snapped at me for some unknown reason. Now, I recognise it was probably stress after juggling a family, housework and work, but then, I was too young to understand - and that unwarranted snap at me for asking a simple question, hurt far more than a stinging smack on the bottom where the pain disappeared after a minute or so for doing something I knew I shouldn't or had been told repeatedly to stop it.
> 
> ...


I would strongly suggest you read "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor, the answer to all of the above lies within.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I am not sure where in my post I accused you of smacking your children? Perhaps my eyesight is not as good as it was or my memory, could you please point out where I made that allegation?
> 
> I have made NO assumptions, you on the other hand have, as usual, inferred from my post issues I have not implied and interpreted it to suit your own purpose.


now who is predictable...and boring...makes a change from you being totally rude.

I can't be bothered getting involved with anything with you...go back and read your post to me.

I don't usually bother to reply to any of your posts...where do you get that idea from? I find you to be an extremely rude and abusive person...smacked as a child or not...so why would anything you have to say be of any interest to me?

No doubt my reply to you will keep you going for a while and give you another target to be rude to....it will save some other poor soul from your verbal garbage so feel free....can't be bothered replying to you.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

jaycee05 said:


> I totally agree with you here, its only since schools were stopped from giving corporal punishment and parents were told they shouldnt smack their children, that this countrys kids have got worse, not all of them of course, but i wouldnt want it to go back to abuse, of any kind
> There are a lot of people now saying bbring back National Service, and again up to a point i think it would be a good thing, but wouldnt want any of my family sent off to wars at 18, but a similiar thing might be good for instilling discipline in the ones who are trouble
> Just want to add that my brother RIP sadly not with us now, when he was a teenager in the 1950s got into some kind of trouble, no ideawhat,as i was only very young,hevwould be about 14-15 i think, he was sent to borstal, and he had to scrub floors with a toothbrush and some awful tasks, but he never got into trouble again, i do know it cured him


The fact that one particular punishment used on one particular person in one particular context APPEARED to work, does not ipso facto provide sufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate its efficacy. 

In fact there are thousands of well documented cases of where similar examples appear to have resulted in entirely the opposite...............


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> now who is predictable...and boring...makes a change from you being totally rude.
> 
> *I hope I am totally predictable, consistency is a great quality to have in life.
> 
> ...


You are so funny, you maintain you cannot be bothered to reply but there you go again, replying, again............. ROFLMAO

Hit (ooh sorry I mean smack) home did it?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

jaycee05 said:


> Not in my eyes, a smack is not hard, leaving no marks, hitting is a very hard smack, my twins who were only smacked, and i mean lightly,not hit with any force, just laugh about it now, now, [and they are in teir 40s now ] they dont hold it against me because they know i wouldnt have hurt them, just to let them know what they did was wrong
> My mother smacked me across the face once, quite hard, for coming in late, and not letting her know, i dont hold it against her, she was worried about me


Oh dear, yet another post justifying smacking as an option because apparently it does not mean that you are hitting/striking a person.

I find it very scary that people are appear to be unable to communicate to their children that their behaviour was inappropriate in ways other than physical punishment.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Why oh why can't people debate without being so damn judgemental?*


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Well we had 5 kids, only 1 has been a wild child, but she has levelled out now so maybe we got something right, one is a banker though, i think they like a bit of spanking...


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2015)

While many of us reject spanking (corporal punishment however you wish to call it), we still insist on using other forms of punishment to help kids learn.

I would like to put out there that punishment (in any form) is not necessary for kids to learn and can in many cases actually delay or stunt learning.

I grew up very close to a culture where children were never hit or punished in any way, their babies and toddlers wants and needs were tended to immediately, and management techniques (mainly baby wearing) were employed to keep curious little hands out of danger. 
This type of fully present/engaged parenting with zero punishment did not produce brats - far from it. Even today you often see children as young as 6 caring for infants in the same way, with patience and kindness, and little to no frustration as the baby is seen as an innocent being who is simply expressing needs however he/she knows to do it.

For westerners no punishment seems completely contrary to everything we know and its hard to wrap our heads around it. 
But think about it. Babies learn to roll over, they learn to crawl, they learn to grasp, they learn to walk and talk, without ever being punished for getting it wrong. 

Think about a child learning to talk. We encourage, we offer guidance, we support them, we even find mistakes cute. 

How many little boys have called a truck a f*ck as theyre learning to talk? 
We dont punish that kind of mistake or call it willfulness or defiance. We dont assume the child is going to grow up to be a sailor 
We fully understand that its difficult for a young child to form those sounds and we trust that they will get it eventually.

When that same child hits his sibling out of frustration, we jump straight to punishment. But the same principles still apply. 
A very young child like that doesnt have self control, doesnt know what to do with big emotions, doesnt have enough experience or practice in frustration to know how to handle it appropriately. 

The exact same thing that we did to help him learn how to say words correctly is what is needed here too. Gentle guidance, understanding that frustration is a difficult emotion, and trust, that with time and guidance on our part, the child will learn to handle frustration without resorting to violence. 

But then... it requires us to know how to handle frustration too doesnt it? 

Which is one of the beauties of parenting. We parents get to learn and grow and human beings too


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> The fact that children are destructive, rude and extremely unpleasant is not, I would suggest down to the fact they are not smacked and can actually be because they ARE hit.


Please Miss, please Miss! Can anybody else have a valid opinion?


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *Why oh why can't people debate without being so damn judgemental?*


It's the reason I put a couple of anecdotal posts on this thread, rather than stating my (mixed) feelings about this .

This is one of those questions to which we will never get agreement, but instead we will get a fair bit of righteous indignation from some posters on both sides.

Whatever we think, none of us can prove, one way or another, whether smacking a child is helpful or not, or even who it is the most helpful to....

Data will vary according to which group surveys the issue, so we can't rely on that either.

It really is a very personal issue which encompasses our own personal experiences, our upbringing, our culture, and for those of us who have children, our own particular children.

But I do think that whatever we decide - smacking or not - what matters more is that the child knows _why_ they are being punished (or in some cases, 'positively encouraged'), otherwise there is no point.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

silvi said:


> It's the reason I put a couple of anecdotal posts on this thread, rather than stating my (mixed) feelings about this .
> 
> This is one of those questions to which we will never get agreement, but instead we will get a fair bit of righteous indignation from some posters on both sides.
> 
> ...


*I also think that when topics come up like this, we will never get the true picture because too many people are afraid of what others might say.
That imo isn't what a debate is about.*


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *I also think that when topics come up like this, we will never get the true picture because too many people are afraid of what others might say.
> That imo isn't what a debate is about.*


That's very true (and applies to other debates in this section too...).

As I said, I do have mixed feelings on this and that comes from personal experience.
So I guess I just can't get fired up enough to argue on either side .

What others think wouldn't stop me if I did have a concrete view though...


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2015)

silvi said:


> It's the reason I put a couple of anecdotal posts on this thread, rather than stating my (mixed) feelings about this .
> 
> This is one of those questions to which we will never get agreement, but instead we will get a fair bit of righteous indignation from some posters on both sides.
> 
> ...


There is though ample evidence that punishment does not work the way we think it works.
There is ample evidence that spanking is detrimental to children, to their brain development and to their overall well being.

The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly opposed spanking (their wording is very specific - "striking a child for any reason.")
Error (Link says error but it works.)

Over 20 years of research in to the detrimental effects of spanking including how it affects the brain.
http://www.cmaj.ca/content/early/2012/02/06/cmaj.101314.full.pdf
Short version: being hit raises cortisol, cortisol in the brain is not conducive to learning. Chronic cortisol in the brain can actually damage the brain.
(No, that doesn't mean everyone who was abused as a child becomes a blithering idiot, but it does mean that there are identifiable changes in brain chemistry and make-up with corporal punishment.)

Corporal punishment is banned in 46 countries with Sweden being the first to make it illegal in 1979. It is banned because of the overwhelming evidence that a) there is no need, and b) it is harmful.

I'm not posting this in judgement of anyone who spanks, but rather informationally. 
In the same way that we know soda is bad for kids, second hand smoke is bad for kids, riding in cars without a seatbelt is bad...., we also know that spanking is bad for kids.

Parents obviously have a choice as to what they do with that information. And how they choose is up to them. For example I don't expose my kids to second hand smoke or allow them to ride in the car unbuckled, but they do drink the occasional soda at a birthday party or social event (though I don't keep it in the house). I figure they are physically resilient enough to handle the odd soda here and there. That still doesn't make soda harmless or necessary.

In the same way, I'm sure some kids are psychologically resilient enough to handle a spanking or two in an otherwise healthy and nurturing parent child relationship. Still doesn't make spanking harmless or necessary.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> There is though ample evidence that punishment does not work the way we think it works.
> There is ample evidence that spanking is detrimental to children, to their brain development and to their overall well being.
> 
> The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly opposed spanking (their wording is very specific - striking a child for any reason.)
> ...


*
Why does it use the term abused? The subject is about smacking.*


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## Wilmer (Aug 31, 2012)

I've got to say, I do find that posters equating not smacking to no discipline quite depressing. Is there really no other way to get a point home to a child? I think there's a lot of ways of having discipline without physical punishment.

I was only smacked once, but I must have been very young as I don't remember - my mum told me. It didn't serve it's purpose and they resolved never to do so again. Growing up, removal of privileges was the most common way of dealing with (rare) poor behaviour. As a teen/young adult, the most effective weapon was my dad (who I idolised) telling me that he was disappointed in me (cue - tears from me!).

But the thing is, punishment was rarely required because my parents taught me what to do and not do. If I was rude to someone, I was asked how I would feel if someone had treated me that way. When I disobeyed my mum and played in the garden in my favourite skirt and tore it, she didn't slap me, she merely pointed out that if I'd still have it to wear if I had done what I should have. Actions have consequences, consider the consequences before you act. Do as you would be done by. That's served me well in life, to be honest. 

Too often you encounter people who will steal and behave poorly when they think no one's looking, but be model citizens when in a group. They know how to avoid punishment, but have no social values or ethics. Slapping doesn't give people ethics, teaching and being a good example does.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2015)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> Why does it use the term abused? The subject is about smacking.*


I wasnt saying spanking is abuse (though it can be).

I was simply saying that if spanking increases cortisol and cortisol is damaging to the brain, then an abused child would have even higher levels of cortisol and even more damage to the brain.


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

My grandparents raised me and they never raised a finger to me. I was (in their words) a really good kid because they had other ways to punish me if I misbehaved (removal of toys / things I liked etc). 

My brothers were raised by my mum and step father in Paris. When I went to visit they got beaten so hard by both my mum and him it used to shock me. They used to run from the room screaming and crying, and this was BEFORE they had been hit. When I look back I can't imagine the terror they felt if they did something remotely wrong. They never raised a hand to me because I think if they had my Nan would have killed them.

I don't think I could ever harm my future children. I would try to be like my grandparents, not my mum.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *I also think that when topics come up like this, we will never get the true picture because too many people are afraid of what others might say.
> That imo isn't what a debate is about.*


Not sure how we can have a debate though if people are too afraid of what others might think or might say to voice their opinions/views. There is such a diverse range of opinions on this forum on just about every subject going. Even when we agree about something we usually disagree about certain elements of it and we might be agree on one subject but be total opposites on another. I think there will always be a few very vociferous posters but it doesn't make them right just because they shout louder or are clever with words. Well thats my humble opinion anyway


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

ouesi said:


> There is though ample evidence that punishment does not work the way we think it works.
> There is ample evidence that spanking is detrimental to children, to their brain development and to their overall well being.
> 
> The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly opposed spanking (their wording is very specific - striking a child for any reason.)
> ...


Thanks for that 

Being the sceptic I am, I had a quick Google on the effects of cortisol on the developing brain and found some conflicting information.
It appears that fairly recently a lot of 'evidence' was produced that said that leaving a baby to cry itself to sleep was detrimental to the child's well being, as it raised cortisol levels. As a result, many parents have done their own online research to see how well these results hold up.

Here's an example:
Dont throw the baby out with the cortisol

and another on babies and sleep:
The evidence on babies, sleep and crying

Here's another one about claims that putting a young child in childcare is bad for them because it raises cortisol:
Does Oliver James Damage the Brain?

There are plenty of other online articles, pro and against the cortisol argument.

The truth is, we don't really know, as the bulk of cortisol brain factor research appears to have been carried out on those suffering PTSD, rather than on infants and young children.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not sure how we can have a debate though if people are too afraid of what others might think or might say to voice their opinions/views. There is such a diverse range of opinions on this forum on just about every subject going. Even when we agree about something we usually disagree about certain elements of it and we might be agree on one subject but be total opposites on another. I think there will always be a few very vociferous posters but* it doesn't make them right* just because they shout louder or are clever with words. Well thats my humble opinion anyway


I dont even think its about right and wrong in these conversations is it?

Whats that adage? An argument is to prove whos right, a conversation is to learn.

Im not trying to be right for sure. There are *so* many different ways to parent and so many different combinations of parent/child personalities and the ensuing relationship, its way too complex of an issue.

I do like to learn though, and conversation - for me - helps me question and thus learn and grow.

As for my beliefs on parenting, I dont post them because I think other parents should parent like I do. 
I post them because the parents out there who dont punish are in a HUGE minority, just look at the statistics. World-wide, something like 80 of children receive some form of corporal punishment.

Being a parent who parents non-traditionally is a lonely place to be. Im sharing not to convince anyone to parent differently, but so that those who do parent differently know theyre not alone.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2015)

silvi said:


> Thanks for that
> 
> Being the sceptic I am, I had a quick Google on the effects of cortisol on the developing brain and found some conflicting information.
> It appears that fairly recently a lot of 'evidence' was produced that said that leaving a baby to cry itself to sleep was detrimental to the child's well being, as it raised cortisol levels. As a result, many parents have done their own online research to see how well these results hold up.
> ...


Cortisol is just the short version 
Did you read this study?
http://www.cmaj.ca/content/early/2012/02/06/cmaj.101314.full.pdf

And yes, we can go back and forth on studies. The bottom line for me is that punishment is simply not necessary. My dogs learn without punishment (intentional punishment, I'm not good enough of a trainer to not punish unintentionally), my kids learn without punishment. That's really all I need to know.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

silvi said:


> Thanks for that
> 
> Being the sceptic I am, I had a quick Google on the effects of cortisol on the developing brain and found some conflicting information.
> It appears that fairly recently a lot of 'evidence' was produced that said that leaving a baby to cry itself to sleep was detrimental to the child's well being, as it raised cortisol levels. As a result, many parents have done their own online research to see how well these results hold up.
> ...


*I have just read the link, don't throw the baby out. Puts a different slant on the cortisol subject.*


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Cortisol is just the short version
> Did you read this study?
> http://www.cmaj.ca/content/early/2012/02/06/cmaj.101314.full.pdf
> 
> And yes, we can go back and forth on studies. The bottom line for me is that punishment is simply not necessary. My dogs learn without punishment (intentional punishment, Im not good enough of a trainer to not punish unintentionally), my kids learn without punishment. Thats really all I need to know.


That's a better study . At least it appears fairly rigorous.

Although the suggestion:


> "A professional consensus is emerging that parents should be supported in learning nonviolent, effective approaches to discipline."


worries me a little.
Because in the UK, this would equate to 'parenting classes' and my guess would be that only certain parents would be deemed appropriate for these, and those parents would be poor, or single parents, and/or on benefits. The more affluent would not be questioned about their 'parenting methods'.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2015)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have just read the link, don't throw the baby out. Puts a different slant on the cortisol subject.*


Those are blogs, not peer-reviewed scientific articles. 
And they deal with sleep training and daycare, not corporal punishment.
You just called me on talking abuse in a spanking thread, Im throwing that ball right back atcha muddying the waters with sleep training and daycare  (And yes, I know it wasnt you who posted those articles )

I abhor the culture of sleep training AKA cry it out.
I dont understand how anyone can advocate for letting an INFANT who is 100% dependent on his/her mother for food, warmth, safety, just sit in a crib alone and cry.

Are there even any animals other than humans who would willingly leave their infant in distress?

Not only that but it is physically and emotionally distressing to the mother. I had a physical and emotional reaction every time my infants cried. It was upsetting to ME. I cant imaging what empathy button you have to silence to leave a child crying and not try to help 

But agh! This is a spanking thread, not a cry it out thread....


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2015)

silvi said:


> That's a better study . At least it appears fairly rigorous.
> 
> Although the suggestion:
> 
> ...


I would hope that support simply means support. 
Just as we have breastfeeding support and doulas, we can also support parents through the very stressful and frustrating journey that is this parenting thing. 
But yeah, IDK what that translates in to in the UK.

I guess look at other countries. For example all of scandinavia has outlawed corporal punishment. What do they do? How do they support parents?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

ouesi said:


> How do they support parents?


Give them an ABBA cd each year and a discount off a Volvo


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> Give them an ABBA cd each year and a discount off a Volvo


I shouldn't laugh.....but......


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2015)

I wanted to share this video of a child behaving very dangerously, and the adults handling it without force or violence of any sort.

[youtube_browser]OXO01BXq1P0[/youtube_browser]

All I know is that a news station is airing this video so they can thank the man who stopped. I dont know why the child was running or what was going on, but I commend the adults involved for their behavior.


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## javi (Feb 10, 2015)

My issue with this whole thing is this...

If i went up to any person and "smacked" them, i'd be arrested and charged with assault, but i could walk up to my child and physically hurt them and get away with it 

A "smack" equals assault in my opinion, whether it be your own child or any other person!

If i was to be brutally honest, i believe hitting your children is a lazy form of parenting!

It's so much easier to lash out at them than use other forms of punishment, whats wrong with taking the time and effort to punish them in a way that teaches them properly???

**sits back and waits for the pro smackers to lash out** :biggrin:


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I vote we should put any kid between walking age and 21 in a harness and lead...possibly a cage....problem solved


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

javi said:


> My issue with this whole thing is this...
> 
> *If i went up to any person and "smacked" them, i'd be arrested and charged with assault,* but i could walk up to my child and physically hurt them and get away with it
> 
> ...


That is true, and quite right that you would be charged - but if you went up to someone who was (say) _bullying/frightening another person and struck them because there was no other way you could prevent what they were doing_, then your actions _may_ be justified. It all depends upon context. And hopefully no-one would even lightly strike a child who wasn't being naughty.

I speak as one who agrees with you - that smacking isn't right; but I also speak as a parent who has occasionally smacked, though I have always ended up ashamed of myself because I regard the fault as being with me, and not with my child. Sometimes frustration, exhaustion, fear or worry leads you to smack when, if you had peace and time and a good night's sleep you wouldn't do it.

I notice that a lot of the people who claim that smacking is never justified don't appear to have children. (Most of them do admit that they hope that they will never smack when their time comes, rather than jump on their high horse). If they can come back in ten years when they have three kids to cope with and still say that they haven't been tempted, I will shake them by the hand.

Some people can manage without ever having to physically discipline their children - partly because of circumstance, and partly because of temperament (parent and child). Others can't - it isn't right, perhaps, but it can be understandable sometimes.

I still maintain that there is a HUGE difference between a smack, which makes a child realise that they have crossed a line, and a beating, which is never appropriate. Children need to learn that actions have consequences, and if it takes a slap on the leg to bring that home to them, then sometimes that's what is needed.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I just wonder how people would feel if we changed the question to "should we ever be able to smack our elderly parents?"


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lostbear said:


> That is true, and quite right that you would be charged - but if you went up to someone who was (say) _bullying/frightening another person and struck them because there was no other way you could prevent what they were doing_, then your actions _may_ be justified. It all depends upon context. And hopefully no-one would even lightly strike a child who wasn't being naughty.
> 
> *Can you give an example of where one would need to smack a child because there was NO OTHER WAY you could prevent what they were doing?*
> 
> ...


Nobody has said there is no difference between "smacking" and "beating".

What I have said is there is NO difference between "smacking" and "hitting".

When someone smacks someone they are hitting someone.

When someone is smacked they are being hit.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I just wonder how people would feel if we changed the question to "should we ever be able to smack our elderly parents?"


Why not smack them as there may be occasions when it is totally justified and there is no other option........................?

Just a tap, not a beating, not enough to cause a bruise, cut etc.

Hopefully they would learn by their mistakes and not do it again...............


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## javi (Feb 10, 2015)

I totally agree with a lot of what you're saying Lostbear.

I am a parent of 3 children, the youngest being 12, the eldest 18, and believe me there have been times when i've come very close to losing control and lashing out but it never actually got that far.

To me i'd be going against all i try to teach them if i did hit them, when they have had physical fights between themselves, how could i punish them for losing their temper in that way if i did the same with them?

It's a case of practicing what you preach, and if i preach no violence then it wouldn't be right to then go ahead and hit them for misbehaving.

My forms of punishment are harder on myself but harder on the kids too, i'm not saying my way is the right way, but it works for us.

I was recently in our local shopping centre and there was a mother with her little boy, maybe 4 or 5yrs old, he knocked a candle off one of the shelves and without a second thought she slapped him straight around the head, the little boy automatically hit back, kicking and stomping on his mothers feet 
Now how could she possibly show him how bad his behaviour was after she had hit him first?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> Well we had 5 kids, only 1 has been a wild child, but she has levelled out now so maybe we got something right, one is a banker though, i think they like a bit of spanking...


You is bad.......................


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I just wonder how people would feel if we changed the question to "should we ever be able to smack our elderly parents?"


Honestly? I think this sort of comparison is hurtful.

Not because its not appropriate or apt, it very much is. But because it challenges deeply held beliefs about ourselves, our parents (whom many love very much), and because it may force people to face a paradigm shift theyre just not ready for yet.

All of that just plain hurts.

So I empathize with parents who struggle to come to terms with their own use of corporal punishment, or their parents use of it. It get it. And these parents need support too


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

javi said:


> I totally agree with a lot of what you're saying Lostbear.
> 
> I am a parent of 3 children, the youngest being 12, the eldest 18, and believe me there have been times when i've come very close to losing control and lashing out but it never actually got that far.
> 
> ...


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

Did I smack my children, well not really, but threatening them with my riding crop usually worked fine. On the one time it didn't & they felt it on their legs they never pushed me again.:devil:


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Valanita said:


> Did I smack my children, well not really, but threatening them with my riding crop usually worked fine. On the one time it didn't & they felt it on their legs they never pushed me again.:devil:


The less you smack, the more effective it is.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2015)

lostbear said:


> Regarding slapping elderly parents - I don't think this is an appropriate analogy. An adult should be able to be reasoned with. If they cannot be, then they do not have the mental capacity, and as they are elderly, and their cognitive abilities are, if anything declining, they don't have the ability to learn, either. Nor would I ever suggest smacking a child who had cognitive problems.


I would argue that based on what you have written here, it is a very accurate analogy.

If an adult can't be reasoned with then they do not have the mental capacity --> Young children/toddlers who can't be reasoned with simply don't have enough brain development either. They simply don't have the mental capacity to control themselves - yet.

Why can't we teach something like self-control the same way we teach other developmental milestones like walking and talking, with patience and encouragement and support through mistakes?

Sure you can "teach" a child not do do something by presenting an unpleasant consequence (punishment), but that doesn't teach *self* control, that just teaches avoidance of punishment. The control is still external, it's not the child controlling him/her self.

Seriously, think about it for a minute. Children learn to talk without ever being purposefully punished for mistakes. And interestingly, what happens to children who *are* punished for mistakes? Kids who are made fun of for having a lisp (social punishment), kids who are rapped on the knuckles for mispronouncing words? How well do these kids learn really? What are they learning?

Now think about the child who's learning to cope with big emotions like anger, and disappointment, and frustration. Exchange learning to handle emotions with learning to talk. What lessons are we teaching our kids by punishing them through their emotional development?

It's no surprise that kids who experience regular corporal punishment grow up to have higher incidences of depression (repressed anger), generalized anxiety, difficulty coping with emotions in general.

That's why I said the comparison is hurtful, because it challenges all we think we know about how kids learn (hint: we learn all sorts of wonderful things without ever being punished. Punishment is not required for learning.)
It challenges what we think we know about how children should be parented, and possibly how we ourselves were raised.

It creates a very strong cognitive dissonance in us that is uncomfortable to the point of making us angry and defensive. It hurts...


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I would argue that based on what you have written here, it is a very accurate analogy.
> 
> If an adult can't be reasoned with then they do not have the mental capacity -->* Young children/toddlers who can't be reasoned with simply don't have enough brain development either.* They simply don't have the mental capacity to control themselves - yet.
> 
> ...


Sometimes you seem too good to be true. You must spend all day polishing your halo.

The rest of us are human. We do our best. We make mistakes. We try to put them right. In doing so we teach our kids that being human means not being perfect, but trying hard to do the right thing, and that making mistakes doesn't make you a bad or evil or stupid person, and that you are just as loveable for not being perfect. They need to know this too, or how will they ever accept their own mistakes and imperfections and still consider themselves as cherished?


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

lostbear said:


> javi said:
> 
> 
> > I totally agree with a lot of what you're saying Lostbear.
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2015)

lostbear said:


> Sometimes you seem too good to be true. You must spend all day polishing your halo.
> 
> The rest of us are human. We do our best. We make mistakes. We try to put them right. In doing so we teach our kids that being human means not being perfect, but trying hard to do the right thing, and that making mistakes doesn't make you a bad or evil or stupid person, and that you are just as loveable for not being perfect. They need to know this too, or how will they ever accept their own mistakes and imperfections and still consider themselves as cherished?


I'm not sure what your assumptions about me have to do with the topic at hand?

I'm well aware that we are all imperfect humans doing our best. In fact I have posted as much over and over again on this very thread.



ouesi said:


> In the end we are all imperfect humans doing the best we can with our children. Were not going to get it right all the time. Were not even going to get it right most of the time.





ouesi said:


> I totally understand why parents smack, because they genuinely feel they had no other option.





ouesi said:


> I completely agree that the majority of parents are caring parents. And the majority of parents do smack their child on occasion. I believe worldwide its about 80% of children are hit by their parents.





ouesi said:


> Again, not trying to make anyone feel defensive or bad about their parenting.
> We are all simply doing the best we know to do.
> 
> There are wonderful parents out there who occasionally spank and there are gawdawful parents out there who have never laid a hand on their children.





ouesi said:


> I think trying to condense all that encompasses parenting a child in to whether or not the parent uses corporal punishment is a flawed premise from the start.





ouesi said:


> I dont even think its about right and wrong in these conversations is it?





ouesi said:


> As for my beliefs on parenting, I dont post them because I think other parents should parent like I do.
> I post them because the parents out there who dont punish are in a HUGE minority, just look at the statistics. World-wide, something like 80 of children receive some form of corporal punishment.
> 
> Being a parent who parents non-traditionally is a lonely place to be. Im sharing not to convince anyone to parent differently, but so that those who do parent differently know theyre not alone.





ouesi said:


> I would hope that support simply means support.
> Just as we have breastfeeding support and doulas, we can also support parents through the very stressful and frustrating journey that is this parenting thing.


I would prefer not to derail the thread in to defending my character or my motives.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

northnsouth said:


> lostbear said:
> 
> 
> > I never smacked my kids but I came very close to slapping my Mother in the last few heart breaking and frustrating months. It was on one very hard stressful and frustrating day. I had been unwell and had an awful day at work, when I arrived on my daily visit she said to me" What a disappointment I thought is was M" . My elder and not so frequent vsiting elder sibling, this was the easiest bit of the whole visit. An overwhelming urge, one I of course did not resort to, especially as my Mother occasionally administered a slap on the back of my leg for cheek!
> ...


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

northnsouth said:


> lostbear said:
> 
> 
> > I never smacked my kids but I came very close to slapping my Mother in the last few heart breaking and frustrating months. It was on one very hard stressful and frustrating day. I had been unwell and had an awful day at work, when I arrived on my daily visit she said to me" What a disappointment I thought is was M" . My elder and not so frequent vsiting elder sibling, this was the easiest bit of the whole visit. An overwhelming urge, one I of course did not resort to, especially as my Mother occasionally administered a slap on the back of my leg for cheek!
> ...


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

lostbear said:


> northnsouth said:
> 
> 
> > I can absolutely relate to everything you have said here - I have coped with an elderly relative with dementia and it is so hard. Especially as the lovely person you knew turns into an angry aggressive stranger.
> ...


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

What on earth has happened to the "quotes" function? It's all over the place.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

lostbear said:


> Sometimes you seem too good to be true. You must spend all day polishing your halo.
> 
> The rest of us are human. We do our best. We make mistakes. We try to put them right. In doing so we teach our kids that being human means not being perfect, but trying hard to do the right thing, and that making mistakes doesn't make you a bad or evil or stupid person, and that you are just as loveable for not being perfect. They need to know this too, or how will they ever accept their own mistakes and imperfections and still consider themselves as cherished?


I agree with this. smacking shouldn't be demonised.It should be an individuals own choice and as long as it doesn't go too far then there shouldn't be a problem.

I wonder if in a few tears we will all be sitting here saying that the naughty step as punishment causes psychological damage and a smack would be less damaging and so a preferred method?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

FWIW I don't think the OP was about a one-off incident, or a life threatening misbehaviour. It seemed to be about a systematic approach, that held it to be a routine part of daily life.

I do have a friend who lost it completely one morning and tipped a tub of yoghourt over a child's head. I gather the beneficial effect lasted for months.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Jonescat said:


> FWIW I don't think the OP was about a one-off incident, or a life threatening misbehaviour. It seemed to be about a systematic approach, that held it to be a routine part of daily life.
> 
> I do have a friend who lost it completely one morning and tipped a tub of yoghourt over a child's head. I gather the beneficial effect lasted for months.


maybe that's the next step after the naughty step? the yoghourt tub?lol


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I used to send my daughter to her room when she was a handful. She loved it up there. That's the trouble with introverted kids - they just shout "Hooray! I'm grounded!" and run off to read and cuddle the cat.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

northnsouth said:


> lostbear said:
> 
> 
> > I never smacked my kids but I came very close to slapping my Mother in the last few heart breaking and frustrating months. It was on one very hard stressful and frustrating day. I had been unwell and had an awful day at work, when I arrived on my daily visit she said to me" What a disappointment I thought is was M" . My elder and not so frequent vsiting elder sibling, this was the easiest bit of the whole visit. An overwhelming urge, one I of course did not resort to, especially as my Mother occasionally administered a slap on the back of my leg for cheek!
> ...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> I agree with this. smacking shouldn't be demonised.It should be an individuals own choice and as long as it doesn't go too far then there shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> I wonder if in a few tears we will all be sitting here saying that the naughty step as punishment causes psychological damage and a smack would be less damaging and so a preferred method?


Well let's not demonise shock collars or prongs then . They work on the same principle and well if you'll do it to a child then why not to a dog.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2015)

lilythepink said:


> I wonder if in a few tears we will all be sitting here saying that the naughty step as punishment causes psychological damage and a smack would be less damaging and so a preferred method?


I think in many years we (our children and our childrens children) will be sitting here talking about how far childrens rights have come.

It wasnt so long ago that it was legally and societally acceptable for a husband to hit his wife. Both men and women would justify its necessity, shrug their shoulders and assume the woman must have done something to deserve it.

I think we will eventually get to the same place of seeing the hitting of children for what it is, and find it just as unacceptable and unnecessary as other now obsolete practices.

I hope....


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Well I'm not going to trawl through the whole thread, but I do have an opinion on this! Having brought up two children to the grand age if 12 and 14 ( ok you can stop laughing now the hard works about to begin) I've only ever with my first child smack him twice.. I soon learnt it gained nothing for me or my son. I soon learnt about the naughty step and a reward system, this doesn't mean there wasn't days I wanted to hang my children up and beat them because I did, but I don't look good in prison stripes !!!! 

But I was lucky as a young parent I had my mother and sister to guide me through how to handle naughtiness in a non smacking way. My children have turned out for the moment good common sensed children who I'm able to communicate with ( sometimes) and talk through what they should have done. 
They are by no means angles .... But we have respect and discipline in the right amount and I know I can send my eldest not my youngest due to her disability, I to any situation and he hopefully would
Compose himself in the correct fashion.

Smacking is a personal choice and I would never dream of correcting a parent in how they raise there child, if however I saw someone smacking the life out a young child I would step in as I feel when someone smacks it should be a control smack not one out of anger of embarrassment., and it should be explained why the child has revived the smack!!


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

My parents only smacked me once (apparently, I don't remember it) in my whole life and I'd like to think me and my sister turned out pretty well. That said, my Dad is 6 foot 6 and 18 stone so a raised voice from him was always far scarier than a raised hand!

If I had kids of my own I hope I'd never think of it, but can imagine it must get so frustrating at times it's hard to know how you'll react


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Well let's not demonise shock collars or prongs then . They work on the same principle and well if you'll do it to a child then why not to a dog.


shock collars and [prong collars for dogs and smacking children?

do you really this these are the same?


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I think in many years we (our children and our childrens children) will be sitting here talking about how far childrens rights have come.
> 
> It wasnt so long ago that it was legally and societally acceptable for a husband to hit his wife. Both men and women would justify its necessity, shrug their shoulders and assume the woman must have done something to deserve it.
> 
> ...


Many adults who were smacked as children but where things didn't go as far as abuse often say it didn't do them any harm.Plenty posted on here exactly the same thing.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

But sadly, many who were beaten to the stage where it_ was_ abuse also think that it didn't do them any harm.

They have had to harden themselves to the ill-treatment they received as children, or they could not have emotionally survived it. It is most often these adults who continue to excessively beat their own children when they have them, not seeing that what they are doing is cruel.

This is a really difficult issue to resolve. I am heartened to read on here that those who think that an occasional slap in an appropriate place (bum, top of leg, back of hand) are aware that that is what it should be - occasional; and also that all of them believe that to have raised their hands at all was wrong, but felt forced to it by circumstances. Those who have smacked (and I include myself here) are not proud of themselves to that degree, but all wish that there had been an alternative but at that instance felt that there wasn't.

No-one here seems to think that regular striking of a child is a good form of discipline, but there are many punishments which I think were worse - being excluded and/or humiliated carries a much longer-lasting scar than a slap on the hand.

I think the very fact that the people who have responded on here are aware that what they have done can have a bad effect on a child means that they are people who are unlikely to be punish excessively. And when they do smack, they feel it (emotionally) at least as much as their child does, and it makes them determined not to resort to smacking again.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2015)

lostbear said:


> But sadly, many who were beaten to the stage where it_ was_ abuse also think that it didn't do them any harm.
> 
> They have had to harden themselves to the ill-treatment they received as children, or they could not have emotionally survived it. It is most often these adults who continue to excessively beat their own children when they have them, not seeing that what they are doing is cruel.


Or just don't know any other way to deal with their children. If it's how you were raised, and it's the way children in your neighbourhood or culture are raised, it's not going to necessarily be easy for you to find another way.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> shock collars and [prong collars for dogs and smacking children?
> 
> do you really this these are the same?


You're deliberately inflicting pain on another living creature to change their behaviour, how are they not different? If some big man started hitting a small woman in a supermarket there wouldn't be any inane comments of how its a personal choice who are we to judge.

For relative size comparison only


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> Many adults who were smacked as children but where things didn't go as far as abuse often say it didn't do them any harm.Plenty posted on here exactly the same thing.


I used to think I was fine about it too, I saw no harm in smacking a kids backside if they did wrong...

Then I looked closer and realised I was just conditioned into thinking that it was ok due to the adults in my life making excuses for their lack of control!

Some try to justify hitting dogs too by saying it does them no harm, and many times you look at the dog and at face value you (general you) would probably agree that no harm was done.

But that's not the point is it, the point is that just because we can, doesn't mean we should!
Of course we can hit children to "teach" them a lesson, and many of those children will go onto adults that justify their parents actions...BUT we don't have to hit children to teach them anything (same as we don't have to hit dogs), there is always a kinder way IMHO.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2015)

lilythepink said:


> Many adults who were smacked as children but where things didn't go as far as abuse often say it didn't do them any harm.Plenty posted on here exactly the same thing.


When my mom was pregnant with me doctors told her it was fine to continue smoking and drinking. That was just the common knowledge at the time.

As far as I can tell, it didnt do me any harm. Nor the countless other children of my generation and past ones whos mothers smoked, drank, and didnt put us in carseats etc.

But by the time I became pregnant, our knowledge and understanding had changed. I didnt smoke or drink while pregnant. 
Not because I thought my mother had harmed me by doing so, but because with the new information, we understand the potential for harm, the lack of benefit to the child, and weve changed our ways accordingly.

I really think the same will happen for spanking one day. 
But we have to educate and support parents with alternate ways to guide and discipline their children. 
The link below has books, articles, and websites. They vary in quality, but like anything, parents can take what makes sense for them and their family and leave what doesnt


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I was smacked as a child. I can't say for sure it did me any harm but it certainly didn't do me any good.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

"Should We be able to 'Smack' Our Kids'" and should you smack you kids are almost two different issues in my mind and I have mixed feelings about being allowed. What exactly is meant by "smack" too? There are parents that spank their kids and that does leave a bad taste in my mouth as an adult doing that to another adult would be considered sexual harassment. Not sure I completely agree but I've seen it said too that corporal punishment is basically a mild form of domestic violence and that there are kids that actually abuse their parents as well.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

People will smack a child, but probably not a full sized adult. I assume it's because the adult will fight back.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I still feel when it comes to smacking your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't .

I was once in supper market and my daughter wanted sweets, I said no and she proceeded to have a full on tantrum than brought three checkouts either side to a stand still :blushing: I ignored her but I could hear more the older generation but still some my age muttering about the child needs a good smack!!! I ignored my daughter and it intensified , then a mother came over who also had young children and tried to calm her down , it didn't work but congratulated me on staying strong and not giving in or smacking. She was so lovely gave me a cuddle and made sure someone helped
Me carry my bags to my care so I could deal with Amy who by this time had given up and just snuggled in my arms sobbing!! 

If parents can learn not to care what others think and allow the child to learn they cannot manipulate a situation through a tantrum this debate could be a thing of the past. 

As a child my mum used to threaten me and used a wooden spoon on me when I was naughty.... That was not how I wanted it for my children and I adore my parents and no I didn't think I deserved it ever!! Even when I scribbled on the wall all up the stairs !!!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Margelli said:


> People will smack a child, but probably not a full sized adult. I assume it's because the adult will fight back.


People will smack their own child but hopefully any form of discipline with your own child wouldn't need to be carried on once that child was an adult.

So, its wrong to smack your child...but probably if you smack an adult the adult would fight back? Well then, according to that reasoning, you ignore the adult that smacks you and reason with them or put them on the naughty step or give them time out?


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

piggybaker said:


> I still feel when it comes to smacking your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't .
> 
> I was once in supper market and my daughter wanted sweets, I said no and she proceeded to have a full on tantrum than brought three checkouts either side to a stand still :blushing: I ignored her but I could hear more the older generation but still some my age muttering about the child needs a good smack!!! I ignored my daughter and it intensified , then a mother came over who also had young children and tried to calm her down , it didn't work but congratulated me on staying strong and not giving in or smacking. She was so lovely gave me a cuddle and made sure someone helped
> Me carry my bags to my care so I could deal with Amy who by this time had given up and just snuggled in my arms sobbing!!
> ...


Nothing more frustrating than going to Tesco etc and some child throws a wobbler at the check out....frustrating for the mother and everybody else in the shop.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> Nothing more frustrating than going to Tesco etc and some child throws a wobbler at the check out....frustrating for the mother and everybody else in the shop.


I used to drag mine out the shop if they started with a full on screaming fit...for my own benefit more than anyone elses...I hate shopping of any description at the best of times but when I hear kids creating for their parents I hate it even more because I just can't cconcentrate


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

There is nothing worse than gong out somewhere...meal, cinema, shopping...and some toddler throws a massive tantrum. 

Every time I have been on holiday somewhere hot, this never seems to happen with local children...but the tourists children are often the ones to play up.

I have been in restaurants on holiday and kids are there with families etc enjoying the evening...then you can nip in the café in your home town and kids are running riot and generally misbehaving and the parents seem to be not able to do a thing about it.

I am not really pro or against smacking.....I think it should be individual choice.....its been an interesting debate...but it does really annoy me when you have your own sometimes expensive enjoyment ruined because some child is doing exactly what it wants and spoiling it for everybody.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Clare7435 said:


> I used to drag mine out the shop if they started with a full on screaming fit...for my own benefit more than anyone elses...I hate shopping of any description at the best of times but when I hear kids creating for their parents I hate it even more because I just can't cconcentrate


me too.
My 3 year old grandson started doing this...so we just left the trolley and got back in the car...very frustrating.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> There is nothing worse than gong out somewhere...meal, cinema, shopping...and some toddler throws a massive tantrum.
> 
> Every time I have been on holiday somewhere hot, this never seems to happen with local children...but the tourists children are often the ones to play up.
> 
> ...


It is very annoying, but how often have your heard someone screech to their kid that "if they don't shut up they'll get a smack" to no effect at all


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2015)

lilythepink said:


> Every time I have been on holiday somewhere hot, this never seems to happen with local children...but the tourists children are often the ones to play up.


I dont know where you go on holiday, but I do know that in many cultures that practice much different parenting than we do in the west, their toddlers dont tantrum nearly as much if at all.

Interesting huh?

In many native cultures in Latin America, the concept of hitting a child for any reason is completely unheard of. Native American Indian tribes were the same (until christianization and the introduction of spare the rod, spoil the child philosophies). 
Traditionally, babies were comforted and attended to at the merest whimper which is totally foreign to the wester view of children....


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Lillythepink I'm not a parent that drags a child round the super market it happened at the end of shopping! Can you imagine walking away leaving everything on the conveyer belt.... I'm not sure whether you have knocked me or not.. It feels a bit like it...


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Im annoyed by kids generally. I avoid pubs or places I think kids will be in case of tantrums. I shop at times I think will be family free... but obviously I cant avoid it. Its annoying, and ruins my experience, but at the same time I'm not sure what a parent can do in that situation. As was said, damned if you do, damned if you dont. If your in a queue with a weeks worth of supplies unloaded on the belt - what are your options?? Very few I would expect (I have no idea about parenting)


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I saw a mother that got her child to stop misbehaving by behaving like her child in the store. Kid must have been mortified but it did work.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

piggybaker said:


> I still feel when it comes to smacking your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't .
> 
> I was once in supper market and my daughter wanted sweets, I said no and she proceeded to have a full on tantrum than brought three checkouts either side to a stand still :blushing: I ignored her but I could hear more the older generation but still some my age muttering about the child needs a good smack!!! I ignored my daughter and it intensified , then a mother came over who also had young children and tried to calm her down , it didn't work but congratulated me on staying strong and not giving in or smacking. She was so lovely gave me a cuddle and made sure someone helped
> Me carry my bags to my care so I could deal with Amy who by this time had given up and just snuggled in my arms sobbing!!
> ...


I know that feeling my LO when about a year ago threw a huge tantrum in the middle of town where everyone was shopping it took me half an hour to move her, I ended up having to carry her away under my arm to the nearest bench so I could find out what was wrong, I tried reasoning with her for 20 minutes every time I went near her she would run toward the main road so I couldn't even just go grab her. I had a crowd of people watching and muttering. Getting down to her level and talking to her normally helps but she was completely irrational that day in the end when I managed to grab her and sit her on the bench to try make sense of what was wrong it turned out she'd got it into her head we were going to see her Grammy so she didn't want to go home, it then took a phone call from her Grammy (my mum) with a promise she would come and see her when we got home to get her to let me take her home with no more breakdowns, it's horrible especially when you know there are people watching you, that was the one time I really kind of gave in normally I will just ride it out but she was right by a main road and I was so worried she was going to make a run for it.

Luckily she doesn't do it now, talking to her usually stops any tantrums before they really start or as a last resort being told she will have a favourite toy taken away always works


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> Nothing more frustrating than going to Tesco etc and some child throws a wobbler at the check out....frustrating for the mother and everybody else in the shop.


My LO has always taken me at my word that if she plays up when we're shopping (she loves shopping) then we will go home, luckily I've never had to actually leave a shop we've had the odd disagreement but they're quickly solved with no screaming.



grumpy goby said:


> Im annoyed by kids generally. I avoid pubs or places I think kids will be in case of tantrums. I shop at times I think will be family free... but obviously I cant avoid it. Its annoying, and ruins my experience, but at the same time I'm not sure what a parent can do in that situation. As was said, damned if you do, damned if you dont. If your in a queue with a weeks worth of supplies unloaded on the belt - what are your options?? Very few I would expect (I have no idea about parenting)


My daughter goes to all sorts of restaurants and sits quietly, the most you will hear from her is if she's talking to one of the adults or playing a game on my phone while waiting for food and it makes some noise. The problem is when kids are let to run riot, maybe I cheated with my LO I've always had one app or another on my phone for her to play while waiting for food or when she was done eating so that she stayed quiet especially when really little, we go to a lot of more grown up restaurants that don't usually have young children with my grandma so it's always been important to keep her occupied and for her to learn what is acceptable behaviour in those environments. she is only allowed to play on my phone during those times or when I'm brushing her hair so it's always special for her and keeps her attention for the most part.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I dont know where you go on holiday, but I do know that in many cultures that practice much different parenting than we do in the west, their toddlers dont tantrum nearly as much if at all.
> 
> Interesting huh?
> 
> ...


anywhere hot with a pool and plenty on tap alcohol.....kids on holiday are hard work....local kids don't seem to be.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

piggybaker said:


> Lillythepink I'm not a parent that drags a child round the super market it happened at the end of shopping! Can you imagine walking away leaving everything on the conveyer belt.... I'm not sure whether you have knocked me or not.. It feels a bit like it...


wasn't knocking you at all...sorry if you thought I was.

We have all had a child that plays up from time to time.

I was smacked as a child....not at all often but it was always there...so, I learned to behave in a way where I wouldn't annoy my parents and so avoid a smack.

I don't think I thought about it quite in those terms.....if I mis behaved, there may be a smack....so I behaved.

I spent much time with my little granny...she never lifted a hand to me...ever...and I played up terribly for her, she had the patience of a saint. I must have worn her out with my demands...and would never have treated my parents in the same way....cos there would be the threat of a smack.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Well isn't that lovely you learned to behave or your parents would hurt you . Are you seriously advocating that the only way a child learns to behave is the threat of violence? You have some messed up views.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2015)

Nicky10 said:


> Well isn't that lovely you learned to behave or your parents would hurt you . Are you seriously advocating that the only way a child learns to behave is the threat of violence? You have some messed up views.


I didnt read it as lilythepink advocating anything, I think she was just sharing her experience.

Though I do agree that behaving just to avoid the threat of something unpleasant isnt all its cracked up to be 

This thread reminded me of a conversation over a decade ago. I was newly pregnant, didnt even know it was twins yet, and we (OH and I) were talking to a family member. Somehow spanking came up and we said we were not going to.
For context, this was also the family member who asked me if I was going to breastfeed, I said that was the plan and her response was thats disgusting. Does __ (OH) know about this?

Anyway, we said no we werent going to spank, at which point OH veered off in to another conversation and this family member took me aside and said you know, if you dont let me spank the baby I wont babysit for you.

:blink:

We didnt even know the gender of the baby yet (or that there were two of them) and she already had the spanking(s) planned out. 

Still taken aback, I blurted out something about okay, you just wont babysit, no worries.
But she persisted, no, if you wont let me spank, I wont watch the baby for you.
"Okay, dont watch the baby. Really, its okay.

It was a very weird, surreal moment. 
And no, she never did watch the babies....


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Well isn't that lovely you learned to behave or your parents would hurt you . Are you seriously advocating that the only way a child learns to behave is the threat of violence? You have some messed up views.


I think you need to go and get another cup of coffee. Either that or grow up a bit. My parents never hurt me....

Before silly people like you started advocating smacking was he most terrible crime on the planet, we didn't have half as much bad behaviour in supermarkets and restaurants etc...now many parents feel they can't smack children cos people like you are always ready and quick to condemn them.

Actually, I think your views and obvious deliberate misinterpretation of anything said should keep you well away from all children...

you want to rol eyes at me? Get back to the playground, you should never have moved on from high school.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I didnt read it as lilythepink advocating anything, I think she was just sharing her experience.
> 
> Though I do agree that behaving just to avoid the threat of something unpleasant isnt all its cracked up to be
> 
> ...


Personal choice....but I agree, it should be a choice.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

As the old adage says.

Violence begins where knowledge ends.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Changed me mind...does 20 still count as a child?...I could go for physical punishment on mine right now


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Mind you a situation has changed my mind this morning!!! Grrrrrrr the male child , I could happily give him a wallop on the backside this morning!! He is having a teenage strop over money!!!! He owes us money for something he wanted and we didn't want to pay out on so we lent him the money and now with only twenty pound left to pay he doesn't want to pay it back!!!


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

piggybaker said:


> Mind you a situation has changed my mind this morning!!! Grrrrrrr the male child , I could happily give him a wallop on the backside this morning!! He is having a teenage strop over money!!!! He owes us money for something he wanted and we didn't want to pay out on so we lent him the money and now with only twenty pound left to pay he doesn't want to pay it back!!!


Must be a teenage boy thing....I'll give you permission if you give me it lol


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> wasn't knocking you at all...sorry if you thought I was.
> 
> We have all had a child that plays up from time to time.
> 
> ...


I was bought up like this too. Got hit only twice that I can remember. Didn't live in fear 
I thought when I was young that I had an idyllic childhood, still think that now many years on. 
Can't think it could have been much better.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

rona said:


> I was bought up like this too. Got hit only twice that I can remember. Didn't live in fear
> I thought when I was young that I had an idyllic childhood, still think that now many years on.
> Can't think it could have been much better.


I think a lot of us where bought up like this, and although I sit on the fence on this kind of thing...each to their own n all that...I didn't smack mine but I didn't need too...if I had needed too I don't know what I would have done because I wasn't in that position.
The one thing I have noticed though is that when someone of my age gets put in front of a therapist....90% if not more come away thinking they've been abused...had they gone in front of a therapist when they where younger you can be sure that wouldn't have been the case...times change...opinions change...I remember swearing at my granddad and my mum hitting me with a hoover pipe. Did this make me love her any less? of course not..my friend from next door got much worse because she got her sweets stopped AND grounded too lol..I had a crafty drink in the bathroom after bed time (I wet the bed and wasn't allowed) and my dad walloped me....do I love him less? Nope...that was the 70's and 80's....The last thing I said to my Mum as she was dying I that I loved her and she was the best Mum any little girl could have....and my dad....cantankerous old git...love him to bits however much he growls and grumbles at me ...would still do anything for him...OK maybe I don't sit o the fence as much as I thought


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Clare7435 said:


> I think a lot of us where bought up like this, and although I sit on the fence on this kind of thing...each to their own n all that...I didn't smack mine but I didn't need too...if I had needed too I don't know what I would have done because I wasn't in that position.
> The one thing I have noticed though is that when someone of my age gets put in front of a therapist....90% if not more come away thinking they've been abused...had they gone in front of a therapist when they where younger you can be sure that wouldn't have been the case...times change...opinions change...I remember swearing at my granddad and my mum hitting me with a hoover pipe. Did this make me love her any less? of course not..my friend from next door got much worse because she got her sweets stopped AND grounded too lol..I had a crafty drink in the bathroom after bed time (I wet the bed and wasn't allowed) and my dad walloped me....do I love him less? Nope...that was the 70's and 80's....The last thing I said to my Mum as she was dying I that I loved her and she was the best Mum any little girl could have....and my dad....cantankerous old git...love him to bits however much he growls and grumbles at me ...would still do anything for him...OK maybe I don't sit o the fence as much as I thought


What you choose to do is up to you. Just saying that a few slaps doesn't have you living in fear and doesn't constitute abuse


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> I was bought up like this too. Got hit only twice that I can remember. Didn't live in fear
> I thought when I was young that I had an idyllic childhood, still think that now many years on.
> Can't think it could have been much better.


*Ah but you forget rona, when we speak of such things we are accused of looking at our past through rose tinted glasses.*


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

rona said:


> What you choose to do is up to you. Just saying that a few slaps doesn't have you living in fear and doesn't constitute abuse


Exactly what I'm saying  never hurt me


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I don't consider myself as being abused as a child I consider myself as being bought up in the age we where... and punished when we did wrong....and it made me who I am...which to the people who know me is a quite likable person, my Mum and pops can't have done too bad of a job can they ....feel free to agree folks haha


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

lilythepink said:


> I was smacked as a child....not at all often but it was always there...so, I learned to behave in a way where I wouldn't annoy my parents and so avoid a smack.
> 
> I don't think I thought about it quite in those terms.....if I mis behaved, there may be a smack....so I behaved.
> 
> I spent much time with my little granny...she never lifted a hand to me...ever...and I played up terribly for her, she had the patience of a saint. I must have worn her out with my demands...and would never have treated my parents in the same way....cos there would be the threat of a smack.


The problem is, I would say that this illustrates the fact that smacking doesn't work. You only behaved if there was the threat of a smack ...not because you had learned anything, or else you wouldn't have 'played up' your patient grandmother simply because she didn't smack.

The 'spare the rod and spoil the child' and 'it didn't do me any harm' is what has perpetuated physical punishment and made it still ok in 2015.

J


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm just still so bemused by the difference between children and dogs in some people's eyes. Someone coming in and saying dogs these days are so disobedient, why when I was a child they didn't step a paw out of line or they got a whack/yank on a choke chain, why oh why don't they do this nowadays would be met with outrage. But children need to be hit to learn how to behave? Sounds like my germanakitapitdobe is a speshul ard breed and needs to be hurt to be trained.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The language is telling

As soon as you say smack = hit people get defensive and claim there is a difference

As soon as you express surprise that people are prepared to use violence against their children to solve problems people come up with some sort of justification

As soon as you challeng posters who have claimed there was no other way, they are unable to provide an example

And of course the claim that it never did them any harm means ergo that it never harms anyone else either

So using the above "logic" it is absolutely fine to smack/hit dogs because sometimes there is no other way and it never did their previous dogs any harm.

Yep, Applied Behaviourists would have a field day!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Don't hit dogs and don't hit children but I cannot say that either is wrong or right in all circumstances


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> Don't hit dogs and don't hit children but I cannot say that either is wrong or right in all circumstances


What circumstances would you consider it might be "right" to hit your own dog?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> What circumstances would you consider it might be "right" to hit your own dog?


No need to hit my own dog, though I do tap him to get his attention but on occasion another dog has taken a reprimand when trying to attack a dog in my charge. I usually try to block but on the odd occasion this hasn't been enough.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> No need to hit my own dog, though I do tap him to get his attention but on occasion another dog has taken a reprimand when trying to attack a dog in my charge. I usually try to block but on the odd occasion this hasn't been enough.


But that is a totally different scenario isn't it?

Protecting your dog/child from attack by another is totally different from hitting your dog/child because they have done something "wrong" ...............

Is your dog deaf? Is that why you need to "tap" him?


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

Michael Ellis has a video where he talks about what your dog is capable of.
He uses an analogy where he says you can do any kind of training you want, hes never going to be able to outrun Carl Lewis. Yet we do this to our dogs all the time, not just physically, but mentally as well.
We ask our dogs to have impulse control when theyre still very much puppies with a puppy brain, we ask them to understand cues that we have not properly taught, we ask them to perform tasks that they just arent capable of doing. And when they fail, we see defiance and stubbornness and punish them for it.

The same applies in child rearing. We constantly ask/expect children to do things they are not developmentally, emotionally, or physically able to do. I am a middle aged adult who physically can NOT sit for long periods. It is torture to me to sit still for even 30 minutes. Yet, we ask children to sit still and not be a bother for that long in restaurants and schools and churches all the time. And then some of us punish them when they cant. 

And then in these conversations, we end up doing the same thing. 
We sit here punishing parents with disapproval and cognitive dissonance for parenting they simply arent capable of - YET. Without support, education, and effective alternatives, parents arent capable of regulating their own emotions enough to teach their children how to regulate theirs. Attacking them (even if it is just a perceived attack) for something they are not capable of seems a bit unfair, and definitely not effective.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Michael Ellis has a video where he talks about what your dog is capable of.
> He uses an analogy where he says you can do any kind of training you want, hes never going to be able to outrun Carl Lewis. Yet we do this to our dogs all the time, not just physically, but mentally as well.
> We ask our dogs to have impulse control when theyre still very much puppies with a puppy brain, we ask them to understand cues that we have not properly taught, we ask them to perform tasks that they just arent capable of doing. And when they fail, we see defiance and stubbornness and punish them for it.
> 
> ...


I think you are absolutely right many parents do not have the skills, knowledge, ability, training or experience to raise children without using physical punishment as of course much of their personal knowledge and experience has been of being physically punished themselves.

Challenging their outlook is not, IMHO, punishing them, anymore than doing the same thing with dog owners is when many of them are lacking in those dog training skills.

If people are not capable then we need to enable them to do so, but of course there will still be those who CHOOSE to use physical punishment rather than A N Other way


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> I think you are absolutely right many parents do not have the skills, knowledge, ability, training or experience to raise children without using physical punishment as of course much of their personal knowledge and experience has been of being physically punished themselves.
> 
> *Challenging their outlook is not, IMHO, punishing them*, anymore than doing the same thing with dog owners is when many of them are lacking in those dog training skills.
> 
> If people are not capable then we need to enable them to do so, but of course there will still be those who CHOOSE to use physical punishment rather than A N Other way


The learner always decides 
I think some would argue that they *feel* punished.

But youre right, it is a fine line and the thinking HAS to be challenged, because children dont have a voice to do so.
I would argue that challenging the thinking also has to be done with lots and lots of support. And of course the parent has to be motivated to learn alternatives too. Many just are not.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> But that is a totally different scenario isn't it?
> 
> Protecting your dog/child from attack by another is totally different from hitting your dog/child because they have done something "wrong" ...............
> 
> Is your dog deaf? Is that why you need to "tap" him?


I thought this was a general topic. I haven't my own children, so can only give an opinion on my own childhood.

My dog is now deaf but I used to tap him to gets his attention anyway when trying to creep up on some wildlife to take a picture. It stood me in good stead for when he did go deaf, as has using hand signals for the majority of his life


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

As a child I was yelled at, I was smacked (knickers down, put over knee kind) and I feared my parents, even now I fear doing something that might cause a yelling or a smack, from anyone, not just my parents. 
I hope that if I ever have children, that I would never treat them the way I was treated.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> The learner always decides
> I think some would argue that they *feel* punished.
> 
> But youre right, it is a fine line and the thinking HAS to be challenged, because* children dont have a voice to do so.*
> I would argue that challenging the thinking also has to be done with lots and lots of support. And of course the parent has to be motivated to learn alternatives too. Many just are not.


I don't think this bit is true in this day and age. I would imagine that the majority of children over a certain age, at least in the UK know full well what power they hold


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

rona said:


> I don't think this bit is true in this day and age. I would imagine that the majority of children over a certain age, at least in the UK know full well what power they hold


The majority of spanking/slapping happens to children under the age of 5.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

In my own experience I was smacked probably at least once a day by my step dad for things as simple as answering back, whining etc, I don't think of that as abuse. the things I remember and think of as abuse are being held up by my t shirt at the top of the stairs with the threat of being thrown down them, being pinned down with a fist against my face threatening to break my nose, constant verbal and psychological abuse, name calling, being grounded to my room for months at a time etc for the first 11 years of my life by someone who was meant to be a 'parent' to me. these things affected me and made me very distrustful of men. But the smacking didn't, my mum used to smack me too and rub soap in my teeth if a swore, chase us round the house with a spatula (though she never hit us with it), I never thought anything of it.

On the flip side my youngest sister never had a smacked butt or got grounded was babied and mollycoddled with no punishment ever and is now a disrespectful so and so who sits on the computer all day, demands lifts any time she leaves the house, keeps dropping out of college because she gets bored, refuses to work because she doesn't want to be bossed around or do anything that means she has to get of her butt because it's 'boring'

Personally physical punishment is something I try not to do because I don't agree with it. It did teach me to be polite and respectful to people but I think the same can be achieved without physical punishment. the problem now isn't people not smacking their children, it's that people spoil their children and don't teach them manners i.e. my own spoilt sister


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

Apollo2012 said:


> In my own experience I was smacked probably at least once a day by my step dad for things as simple as answering back, whining etc, I don't think of that as abuse. the things I remember and think of as abuse are being held up by my t shirt at the top of the stairs with the threat of being thrown down them, being pinned down with a fist against my face threatening to break my nose, constant verbal and psychological abuse, name calling, being grounded to my room for months at a time etc for the first 11 years of my life by someone who was meant to be a 'parent' to me. these things affected me and made me very distrustful of men. But the smacking didn't, my mum used to smack me too and rub soap in my teeth if a swore, chase us round the house with a spatula (though she never hit us with it), I never thought anything of it.
> 
> On the flip side my youngest sister never had a smacked butt or got grounded was babied and mollycoddled with no punishment ever and is now a disrespectful so and so who sits on the computer all day, demands lifts any time she leaves the house, keeps dropping out of college because she gets bored, refuses to work because she doesn't want to be bossed around or do anything that means she has to get of her butt because it's 'boring'
> 
> Personally physical punishment is something I try not to do because I don't agree with it. It did teach me to be polite and respectful to people but I think the same can be achieved without physical punishment. the problem now isn't people not smacking their children, it's that people spoil their children and don't teach them manners i.e. my own spoilt sister


Im so sorry you endured that as a child


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> The majority of spanking/slapping happens to children under the age of 5.


How do you know this?

Where are the figures?

Is it because kids know their rights?


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

rona said:


> How do you know this?
> 
> Where are the figures?
> 
> Is it because kids know their rights?


World Health Organization, United Nations, UNICEF.
In the US, its the CDC stats.

Im not sure what you mean by children know their rights?

Are you saying that a child who is being abused should report it?


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I got a slap more as I was older and started being a little sh1t ...nothing abnormal and I only ever acted out like the average kid but if I didn't think I'd get a thick ear I probably would have been a bigger sh!t ...I didn't often have a slap but the fear of pushing my parent too far was enough..I would like to add that this was a healthy fear....if you walked into any school back then and aked what your parents would do if you drew on the walls....ripped off wallpaper....backchatted your parents (just examples) and most of the answers would have been ''A slap round the legs'' It was a running joke at school...one...two....what comes after three kids....A Slap lol


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Im so sorry you endured that as a child


Thank you.

I always think of it everything that happens in life is a lesson to learn from. I know I had a crappy childhood but there are a lot of people especially children worse off than I've ever been, I've always had a roof over my head and food to eat, I went to school had lots of friends and had certain family members that were there for me when I needed them so I was never alone.

I'm not close with my mum for the way she let my step dad act toward me but at least I get to build from my experiences. so I know what kind of life I want to give my child and I try to give her the happiest, stress free and most loving environment I can for her to grow up in


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> World Health Organization, United Nations, UNICEF.
> In the US, it's the CDC stats.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "children know their rights"?
> ...


Can you put links please

We have this here and I believe all school age children are made aware 
https://www.childline.org.uk/Pages/Home.aspx


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Clare7435 said:


> I got a slap more as I was older and started being a little sh1t ...nothing abnormal and I only ever acted out like the average kid but if I didn't think I'd get a thick ear I probably would have been a bigger sh!t ...I didn't often have a slap but the fear of pushing my parent too far was enough..I would like to add that this was a healthy fear....if you walked into any school back then and aked what your parents would do if you drew on the walls....ripped off wallpaper....backchatted your parents (just examples) and most of the answers would have been ''A slap round the legs'' It was a running joke at school...one...two....what comes after three kids....A Slap lol


We had respect for the local Bobby too. Don't see that much now


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

rona said:


> We had respect for the local Bobby too. Don't see that much now


lol...I remember going to Tates to get my mums **** when I was about 7 and I swore in front of our local bobby....and it earned me a slap round the back of the head...I only told my dad about 4 years ago because if I'd have told him at the tie I'd have got another hahaha....thanks for that, it's great when you remember snippets like that and they give you a good laugh. I swear to god my mum would have laughed her head off if she'd been around to hear some of my admissions


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

rona said:


> Can you put links please
> 
> We have this here and I believe all school age children are made aware
> https://www.childline.org.uk/Pages/Home.aspx


This is one of the more comprehensive global studies. The rate of corporal punishment is highest in younger children, the level of the punishment is highest in children ages 4-9.
http://www.unicef.org/protection/Child_Disciplinary_Practices_at_Home.pdf

And sorry, I'm still not sure what you mean by saying that children know their rights.
Do you mean that children should report their parents? Or that the responsibility of not putting up with ill-treatment falls on the children?

Knowing it's not okay to be hit does not really do the child in that situation much good.
An adult in an abusive or even unhealthy relationship has autonomy to leave. There are of course multiple psychological reasons why an adult would stay in an abusive relationship, but bottom line, if they do decide to walk away, they can. An adult can get a job, open a bank account, rent a house, sign their name etc.

A child is fully dependent on their caretakers. What exactly is an abused child supposed to do when those who are supposed to be his protectors are also the cause of his abuse? It's not so simple as just saying "a child knows their rights."


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

If a child has been taken into care it isn't because the father smacked the child, its because there is evidence of physically abuse... and if he hasn't made changes by attended anger management, parenting classes or any other support recommended then he is a significant risk of causing a child physical harm so no he shouldn't be allowed to father another child again.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> This is one of the more comprehensive global studies. The rate of corporal punishment is highest in younger children, the level of the punishment is highest in children ages 4-9.
> http://www.unicef.org/protection/Child_Disciplinary_Practices_at_Home.pdf
> 
> And sorry, Im still not sure what you mean by saying that children know their rights.
> ...


Thankyou and no, I never mention abuse at all


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

rona said:


> Thankyou and no, I never mention abuse at all


Okay, so can you clarify for me what you meant when you said the bolded?



rona said:


> I don't think this bit is true in this day and age. I would imagine that *the majority of children over a certain age, at least in the UK know full well what power they hold*


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Okay, so can you clarify for me what you meant when you said the bolded?


Not in detail or from an informed position as it's not a subject I'm interested in or have ever really given much thought. However I know of parents who are even worried to chastise their children for fear that their child will report them for abuse. 
Children in the know in this country have all the power. That isn't to say that there aren't too many being abused.

One of my cousins was badly abused by her father as a child and a niece sexually abused by her step father.
I've seen abuse first hand and know the difference between my parents odd correction and the abuse my cousin suffered.

This is my last comment here because, as I said, I'm not interested.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

rona said:


> Not in detail or from an informed position as it's not a subject I'm interested in or have ever really given much thought. However I know of parents who are even worried to chastise their children for fear that their child will report them for abuse.
> Children in the know in this country have all the power. That isn't to say that there aren't too many being abused.
> 
> One of my cousins was badly abused by her father as a child and a niece sexually abused by her step father.
> ...


I totally understand if youre not interested.

For me, it is a topic of great interest, not just because Ive dedicated my life to working with children, but because children are the future. (It sounds horribly cliche, I know, but its true. A kinder generation will build a kinder future.)

Saying things like children today have all the power is very naive. The fact is, worldwide, children still dont have the same basic rights as any other human.
Just take spanking/slapping, not abuse, just discipline. In any other context this would be unacceptable, but to a child - a CHILD who is smaller, and completely dependent, suddenly the slapping is acceptable?

100 years ago we would have been having the same conversation about husbands being able to discipline their wives. We would have had the same justifications and arguments in support of just a slap.

That we find spanking acceptable in certain situations just means we are culturally indoctrinated and desensitized to it. We dont see the hitting for what it is. I am confident that this too will eventually change and I look forward to that change.

It's not our job to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. It's our job to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless. ~L.R. Knost


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

ouesi said:


> It's not our job to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. It's our job to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless. ~L.R. Knost


What a great quote.

The argument that knowing that they can't be physically punished somehow makes children uncontrollable because they 'hold the power' is an alien concept to me ...out of my experience. If you have never used force (or fear) to control, then the loss of it is not an issue.

J


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I totally understand if you're not interested.
> 
> For me, it is a topic of great interest, not just because I've dedicated my life to working with children, but because children are the future. (It sounds horribly cliche, I know, but it's true. A kinder generation will build a kinder future.)
> 
> ...


I didn't say children today had all the power. 
I was talking about the UK as that was the link I gave and all I have been talking about. 
I have always used shoves and slaps as a way of reprimanding friends. It isn't done as abuse or assault and none have ever taken offense or thought to prosecute me

We are either talking at cross purposes which has always happened in our exchanges or you are being purposely obtuse. I'll take it that we are at cross purposes

Sigh!!


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

rona said:


> I didn't say children today had all the power.
> I was talking about the UK as that was the link I gave and all I have been talking about.
> I have always used shoves and slaps as a way of reprimanding friends. It isn't done as abuse or assault and none have ever taken offense or thought to prosecute me
> 
> ...


LOL I was just thinking the same thing to myself about you!

We are clearly talking about slapping/spanking as a means to discipline children. 
A friendly shove between equals is not a slap meant to reprimand/discipline a child who is smaller, and dependent on that person.

And you did say children have all the power:


rona said:


> Children in the know in this country have all the power.


Which is a just a silly thing to say.

What power does a child have against any adult?

But lets go with what youre saying for a minute. 
Lets take a look at that kid who decides to report his/her parent for abuse. 
Do you have any kind of idea the strength it takes to do something like that?
Do you have any idea where a child would have to be mentally and emotionally to even think to report their parents? 
To say it is in any way remotely a power is a huge insult to any child who has been in that position.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

ouesi said:


> LOL I was just thinking the same thing to myself about you!
> 
> What power does a child have against any adult?
> 
> ...


Parents are terrified of putting a foot out of place, I was talking to a mother in the supermarket the other day funnily enough, her 4 year old was having a tantrum and giving a spectacular audition of a roll of a dying fly, the poor woman was almost in tears, the only reason we spoke was I had to step over the rug rat to get by, the poor woman sort of apologised, I said in my day they would have got a slap, poor woman daren't even touch her said it happens all the time and that she was reported for pulling the child by the arm during a previous episode.
There is a narrow line unfortunately, we allow slapping, and people take it to the extreme which can never be allowed to happen.

But a short sharpe slap on the hand or leg would speak volumes imo.
I add I was never smacked as a child.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2015)

You know.... Adults tantrum all the time.
Dont believe me? Just ask the mods :lol:
Actually just read through a few threads with angry faces on them. Im constantly reading threads in dog chat where there was a shouting match or fishwife moment.

Adults tantrum for the same reason kids do. Theyre angry, frustrated, scared for a loved one, frightened themselves, or just majorly stressed and have that one moment that set them off.

When adults tantrum, we say they lost it and for the most part we tend to be understanding, because, well, weve all been there.
And what do we do for our loved ones when theyre in the middle of a tantrum? 
We soothe, we listen, we remove them gently from the situation, we talk to them, we acknowledge, we validate, we try to understand....

So why is it all of a sudden when a child is having a big emotions moment, we forget all the same things that applied to our adult loved ones?
Are childrens emotions and feelings less valid than adult ones?


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

DT said:


> Parents are terrified of putting a foot out of place, I was talking to a mother in the supermarket the other day funnily enough, her 4 year old was having a tantrum and giving a spectacular audition of a roll of a dying fly, the poor woman was almost in tears, the only reason we spoke was I had to step over the rug rat to get by, the poor woman sort of apologised, I said in my day they would have got a slap, poor woman daren't even touch her said it happens all the time and that she was reported for pulling the child by the arm during a previous episode.
> There is a narrow line unfortunately, we allow slapping, and people take it to the extreme which can never be allowed to happen.
> 
> But a short sharpe slap on the hand or leg would speak volumes imo.
> I add I was never smacked as a child.


So her child was throwing a tantrum and embarassing her, she should slap the child? Tantrum or retaliation? Mine field ain't it? :cursing:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> So her child was throwing a tantrum and embarassing her, she should slap the child? Tantrum or retaliation? Mine field ain't it? :cursing:


My point was that she didn't dare do anything!
You try reasoning you try bribing - what do you do next?
personally I would have had it over my shoulder and out of there!
What would you have done?

and call me an old battle axe but I don't want to have to be stepping over obstacles to reach the froze peas!


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

DT said:


> My point was that she didn't dare do anything!
> You try reasoning you try bribing - what do you do next?
> personally I would have had it over my shoulder and out of there!
> *What would you have done?*
> ...


I was 21, my child was 2 and a half he sat on the floor throwing a mega tantrum, in the middle of Waitrose no less. So I sat down and joined him ,he was mesmerised what was Mummy doing. Diversion completed enabling us to engage in positive behaviour. I looked no more a fool sitting on the floor in Waitrose than I would have getting all stressed and in hot sweating panic.
I was on a bus recently a child was having the most amazing strop, Mum was almost in tears,so embarrassed by all the tuts she was getting. I offered to take the child. She accepted my offer, we had a good time counting all the red cars and looking at the big wheels on the lorries. Diversion complete. Mum had time to gather herself and calm down. I am an old battle ax too you see.

ETA the first chain of restaurant that come up with child free zones will get my patronage though!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> I was 21, my child was 2 and a half he sat on the floor throwing a mega tantrum, in the middle of Waitrose no less. So I sat down and joined him ,he was mesmerised what was Mummy doing. Diversion completed enabling us to engage in positive behaviour. I looked no more a fool sitting on the floor in Waitrose than I would have getting all stressed and in hot sweating panic.
> I was on a bus recently a child was having the most amazing strop, Mum was almost in tears,so embarrassed by all the tuts she was getting. I offered to take the child. She accepted my offer, we had a good time counting all the red cars and looking at the big wheels on the lorries. Diversion complete. Mum had time to gather herself and calm down. I am an old battle ax too you see.
> 
> ETA the first chain of restaurant that come up with child free zones will get my patronage though!


Actually I am pleased you mentioned sitting down yourself to have a tantrum remembering seeing this on TV and thinking what a good idea!
Dunno if I would have ever had the nerve though but hats off to you for trying that one!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Apollo2012 said:


> In my own experience I was smacked probably at least once a day by my step dad for things as simple as answering back, whining etc, I don't think of that as abuse. the things I remember and think of as abuse are being held up by my t shirt at the top of the stairs with the threat of being thrown down them, being pinned down with a fist against my face threatening to break my nose, constant verbal and psychological abuse, name calling, being grounded to my room for months at a time etc for the first 11 years of my life by someone who was meant to be a 'parent' to me. these things affected me and made me very distrustful of men. But the smacking didn't, my mum used to smack me too and rub soap in my teeth if a swore, chase us round the house with a spatula (though she never hit us with it), I never thought anything of it.
> 
> On the flip side my youngest sister never had a smacked butt or got grounded was babied and mollycoddled with no punishment ever and is now a disrespectful so and so who sits on the computer all day, demands lifts any time she leaves the house, keeps dropping out of college because she gets bored, refuses to work because she doesn't want to be bossed around or do anything that means she has to get of her butt because it's 'boring'
> 
> Personally physical punishment is something I try not to do because I don't agree with it. It did teach me to be polite and respectful to people but I think the same can be achieved without physical punishment. the problem now isn't people not smacking their children, it's that people spoil their children and don't teach them manners i.e. my own spoilt sister


so sorry you had such a hard time of it.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> The majority of spanking/slapping happens to children under the age of 5.


would that be that in a normal house hold without going as far as abuse that by 5 a child who was smacked now learned? Or would it be that by 5 a child learned whichever way...like smacking or no smacking?


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

rona said:


> How do you know this?
> 
> Where are the figures?
> 
> Is it because kids know their rights?


I don't know of any figures either but there seems to be less discipline with children than when I was a child and more badly behaved children all round. But...there was a quote on here earlier that said exactly the same thing about the older generation blaming the younger generation and it seemed to be passed down through the ages. Think it was Ouesi that posted it...but I may be wrong on that one.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

I can only remember one of mine throwing a tantrum in a public place. It was a supermarket and she was on the floor wiggling around crying. I told her she was embarrassing and I walked off and left her (obviously I could still see her but she couldn't see me). It worked perfectly and she never did it again ever. No attention for such behavior, no need to be smacking. My children are 7 and 8 now but I've always been able to take the anywhere and people have commented on the good behaviour. A gentleman came over once and told them both how good they were in a restaurant. I didn't smack them into submission either, I used common sense. Children misbehave in restaurant / supermarkets/ pubs because they are bored, it's a long time to be in one place. Mine had little backpacks with pens and colouring books When we went in restaurants. I've even set them tasks in supermarkets before spotting things or helping people. They aren't perfect but I can say they are well behaved and I've never smacked them once.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> You know.... Adults tantrum all the time.
> Dont believe me? Just ask the mods :lol:
> Actually just read through a few threads with angry faces on them. Im constantly reading threads in dog chat where there was a shouting match or fishwife moment.
> 
> ...


Love this, I have always failed to understand the logic some parents use re smacking.

A child has lost control therefore the parent must?

Children, animals and vulnerable people feel secure when adults do NOT lose control (apart from observing examplars).

Powerful people do not need to use violence, or shout, or swear, they have fantastic self control and thus are able to instil confidence in others.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2015)

lilythepink said:


> would that be that in a normal house hold without going as far as abuse that by 5 a child who was smacked now learned? Or would it be that by 5 a child learned whichever way...like smacking or no smacking?


Many reasons. Usually by 5, developmentally kids are more able to control themselves regardless of how they have been taught. Kids are cool that way, they manage to hit those developmental milestones regardless of how much we parents screw up in the process 
Also, by 5 kids are more able to express themselves, thus fewer frustration incidents that lead to an adult smacking in frustration.
I think maybe as kids get older, they are less affected by a smack and parents either move to harsher corporal punishment or different forms of punishment (shaming, isolation, taking away toys and privileges). 
So yeah, lots of reasons, probably many more I havent even thought of.



smokeybear said:


> Love this, I have always failed to understand the logic some parents use re smacking.
> 
> A child has lost control therefore the parent must?
> 
> ...


Which ties in to another conversation we were having in dog chat about being a leader and that great article by Nicole Silvers about leadership. Leadership is being the person others *choose* to turn to in a crisis. Not the one taking charge by force, fear, pain, intimidation etc.

I love the line in that quote about modeling a mature adult response  (And ouch as I look back on my many parenting failures! )

It can be so hard sometimes having to be the adult in these situations, but be the adult we must, after all, with our children, we are the only adult in that relationship


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

This Mum has just been sentenced to 150 hours community service and an 18 month supervision order for slapping her daughter at a One Direction concert. She was charged with assault.

Woman who slapped her daughter at One Direction gig convicted of assault | Daily Mail Online


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> This Mum has just been sentenced to 150 hours community service and an 18 month supervision order for slapping her daughter at a One Direction concert. She was charged with assault.
> 
> Woman who slapped her daughter at One Direction gig convicted of assault | Daily Mail Online


Okay, a) the mother should be slapped for taking her 8 year old daughter to a One Direction gig to begin with.

But in context...
"Kevin Christie, prosecuting, said *the mother had been drinking before the event and brought alcohol hidden in a water bottle into the venue.*
District Judge Denis Brennan sentenced her to 150 hours of community service and an 18-month supervision order.
He said: 'Your daughter was excited but also you were stressed due to getting lost.
'You tried to deal with that by having some alcohol. You lost your self-control."

Clearly that's not an example of an adult modeling a mature adult response.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Okay, a) the mother should be slapped for taking her 8 year old daughter to a One Direction gig to begin with.
> 
> But in context...
> "Kevin Christie, prosecuting, said *the mother had been drinking before the event and brought alcohol hidden in a water bottle into the venue.*
> ...


Clearly. Just demonstrating that the courts do view it as assault however some might like to describe it as just a slap.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Okay, a) the mother should be slapped for taking her 8 year old daughter to a One Direction gig to begin with.


Have to agree with that


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Clearly. Just demonstrating that the courts do view it as assault however some might like to describe it as just a slap.


As they should. Its a basic human right to not be assaulted.



> In Europe, the European Court of Human Rights has progressively condemned corporal punishment of children in a series of cases since the 1970s brought against the UK under the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, first concerning corporal punishment as a sentence of the courts, then as a punishment in schools and in the home. The European Committee of Social Rights systematically pursues the issue with states and regularly concludes that states in which the law does not prohibit all corporal punishment are in breach of the European Social Charter and the Revised Social Charter.
> In 2001, the Committee issued a general observation clarifying its condemnation of the legality and practice of corporal punishment. It has also reviewed in detail the legislation relevant to corporal punishment in
> a number of states in response to collective complaints brought under the Additional Protocol to the Social Charter. In 2004 the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe called for a Europe-wide ban,
> and in 2009 the European Parliament adopted a resolution calling for prohibition of corporal punishment in all European Union member states which had not yet achieved the necessary law reform.In Europe, the European Court of Human Rights has progressively condemned corporal punishment of children in a series of cases since the 1970s brought against the UK under the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, first concerning corporal punishment as a sentence of the courts, then as a punishment in schools and in the home. The European Committee of Social Rights systematically pursues the issue with states and regularly concludes that states in which the law does not prohibit all corporal punishment are in breach of the European Social Charter and the Revised Social Charter.
> ...


http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/pdfs/reports/Special Report Sweden.pdf

The legalese from the European Parliament resolution on the 25th anniversary of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child:


> Condemns any form of violence against children, physical, sexual and verbal abuse, forced marriages, child labour, prostitution, trafficking, torture, honour killing, female genital mutilation, the use of child soldiers and of children as human shields, deprivation, neglect and malnutrition; considers that tradition, culture and religion should never be used to justify violence against children; calls on the Member States to uphold their obligations and combat any form of violence against children, including by formally prohibiting and sanctioning corporal punishment against children; calls on the Member States to increase their cooperation and dialogue with third countries, to raise awareness and to advocate for childrens rights to be respected everywhere in the world;


Motion for a resolution on the 25th anniversary of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child - B8-0285/2014


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> As they should. Its a basic human right to not be assaulted.


Ouesi I know that, if you go back to earlier in this thread you will see I am against the smacking and slapping of children just as I am against the use of shock collars and hitting of dogs.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Ouesi I know that, if you go back to earlier in this thread you will see I am against the smacking and slapping of children just as I am against the use of shock collars and hitting of dogs.


LOL Im agreeing with you and supporting your post with more info


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

DT said:


> Actually I am pleased you mentioned sitting down yourself to have a tantrum remembering seeing this on TV and thinking what a good idea!
> Dunno if I would have ever had the nerve though but hats off to you for trying that one!


I wasn't brave enough to mimic a full tantrum but sitting with arms and legs folded, and copying his amazing thrusting out of lower lip was enough to get his attention.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> each to their own. I don't think its right for either one side or the other to impose their views .


This. Never even slapped my child however I would reserve the right to slap if I feel it's essential to do so.

What's worse, being slapped or being held tightly which can hurt worse.. where's the line? Are we talking about beating (I would never condone) or a slap?. In fact what is the difference between a slap and a smack? How soon before parents are afraid to touch their children as it could be seen as bad and punishable? Far fetched, I don't think so. We already have that when people don't check on children alone and scared on the street.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

I was smacked as a child. A lot I think. I believe it did me a lot of harm.

Whenever somebody has said to me they were smacked as a child and It didn't do them any harm, I always get the urge to say "you reckon?"


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