# Breeders who rehome ex breeding bitches.



## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

What does every one think of this practise? 

My instinctual ignorance says that it shows a lack of care for each dog, instead seeing them as breeding machines - and presumably there are some unethical (ie byb) for whom this is the case. 

However, if someone really is breeding for the breeds improvement, considering how long dogs live, that to make a real difference without spending 20 years at it, you would need to breed more often, from more dogs, than you may feel you can comfortable look after.


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## Leah84 (Jun 22, 2009)

i dunno, the only breeders i thought really did this were byb`s and puppy farmers, obviously could be wrong but i don`t see how a 'breeder' could use them then dump them when they were past it i`d just get too attached


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## Guest (May 24, 2011)

I do not agree with it at all. I dont know of any breeders I have met that rehome ex breeding dogs.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I do not agree with it at all.


That's definitely my instinct as well, but just wanted to see from people who are more in the know than me, if this is an "acceptable" way of acting... Is it the norm? Or is it reasonable to rule a breeder out, even if otherwise they look fantastic (say all the right things, have healthy lovely dogs, health checks, goes on and on about health and improving it, how they are not in it for the money and so on), because of this alone?


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I dont like the thought of it, to me if that breeder cant keep her they should no longer breed. If/when I breed Tilly/skye they will always stay here until nature parts us


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## cavmad (Jan 27, 2009)

I could never do it but sometimes the bitch has a better life in a loving home.The people that tend to rehome their old bitches usually have kennels or a lot of dogs so much better for the bitch to find a nice sofa and a human bed to sleep on.I have several x puppy farm dogs that would have had an even more horrid life/death if they werent allowed out to be rehomed


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

This is something that's been suggested to me about my Tipsy. She doesn't show, she hates it and even though she's not had a litter yet, someone has already said to me that if she doesn't have any then I should move her on to a nice pet home  she's already got a fab pet home... with ME ! 

I can understand though how some need to rehome in order to keep their lines going. It's not always possible to keep a load of older dogs/bitches so the best thing for these dogs probably would be a new home where they will get the time and attention that would normally be split between quite a few dogs. It shouldn't be seen as a bad thing as long as it's done right and the new home is a good one.


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

Makes me sick. No excuse, if you care about your dogs the slightest bit, you don't use them and ditch them when they're no longer convenient. Unless they're better off elsewhere of course, in which case the poor things ought not be kept in such a place to squirt out litter after litter in the first place. People suck.


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## The3DChis (Jan 17, 2011)

I dont like it at all either, but i wouldnt have my sweet wee Daisy otherwise.
She had just had 2 pups and sadly one died, and when i went to see my puppy Darla for the 1st time the breeder mentioned Daisy to me.
The reason for the rehoming was to continue lines as mentioned here.
She was also concentrating on Long coats rather than smooth so that was another reason i suppose.
I couldnt do that myself, especially since Daisy was bred there so was there from birth too and when i got her she was 3 years old. (she is 4 now)

I hadnt planned on getting 2 chihuahuas at the same time, but it was the best thing i ever did and she really helped Darla settle when they both came home.
They are still so close now it's adorable.
Daisy doesnt play with toys or things like that, but she is the most loving girl ever and my total shadow.
I just have to look at her and she rolls over for a belly rub.lol
She licks me loads too and just loves being on my lap.
I think she is so much happier with me anyhow and i feel the same about her.


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## Dazadal (Nov 4, 2010)

The practice of rehoming bitches that "are no longer of use" is wrong. I work for a dog rescue organisation and we get several brood bitches a year from Puppy farmers and the state most are in is shocking. 
I know that this practice isn't just confined to puppy farmers top show people do it too. Shame on them!


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## Guest (May 25, 2011)

I am with the majority here and think it is terrible! these people that do this can NEVER have seen their dog as a loved family pet to be able to do this!

BUT that said - I would rather is be done thenthink that 'that' bitch would never ever experience, the love of a family ,care nor normality if left with that 'type' of breeder!
DT


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## critter (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi, Those are the lucky ones!, a lot of these Breeders use Rescues as dumping ground for their worn out brood bitches and you will often hear the old excuse that they are replacing the bitch to continue/improve the line, if that's the case why not have the unwanted bitch spayed and put into retirement? as a pet in the household she knows rather than bundle her off intact to somewhere strange?, sorry but it smacks of the BYB's mantra, 'use them, abuse them, and throw them away!. wayne.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

There are times when its a better outcome for the bitch, at least one case springs to mind, and it's certainly not because the breeder didn't care about the bitch, more that she cared enough to realise that the change in her home circumstances and the amount of animals she had meant that this individual was not as happy as when she'd first taken her on. She was rehomed to a couple with acres of land, and one dog who happened to be pining for her companion that they'd recently lost, the breeder charged them the princely sum of £50 and probably spent more than that on petrol meeting them half way up to Scotland.



NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> Makes me sick. No excuse, if you care about your dogs the slightest bit, you don't use them and ditch them when they're no longer convenient. Unless they're better off elsewhere of course, in which case the poor things ought not be kept in such a place to squirt out litter after litter in the first place. People suck.





Dazadal said:


> The practice of rehoming bitches that "are no longer of use" is wrong. I work for a dog rescue organisation and we get several brood bitches a year from Puppy farmers and the state most are in is shocking.
> I know that this practice isn't just confined to puppy farmers top show people do it too. Shame on them!


I'm sorry but that's like saying all breeders are puppy farmers, there may come a point where someone who is breeding feels that a particular bitch, or even dog, isn't getting the attention or peace and quiet, one to one that they could get in another home, or just doesn't enjoy their role, there are stud dogs that just don't take to it. If a really good home crops up unexpectedly, what would you do? If you are serious about breeding and trying to make your small but positive contribution to a particular breed, or even breeds, I think you'd be selfish to hang on to ex breeding stock if you felt it wasn't in their best interests. This is the sort of breeder that you rarely hear about, because they don't rehome via rescue, and usually aren't actively looking to rehome their dog(s), but will look at such a possibility if it lands on their doorstep.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Most of the beagles I have rescued over the last 40 years are ex breeding bitches. A lot from the same breeder. (A crufts judge). I like to think I give them a better life to being in kennels. 
Foxiesummer


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

foxiesummer said:


> Most of the beagles I have rescued over the last 40 years are ex breeding bitches. A lot from the same breeder. (A crufts judge). I like to think I give them a better life to being in kennels.
> Foxiesummer


That's exactly the sort of breeder that shouldn't be supported, and I wish they didn't hide behind the KC, if they're rehoming that many dogs/bitches, then they're doing something wrong


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## Guest (May 25, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There are times when its a better outcome for the bitch, at least one case springs to mind, and it's certainly not because the breeder didn't care about the bitch, more that she cared enough to realise that the change in her home circumstances and the amount of animals she had meant that this individual was not as happy as when she'd first taken her on. She was rehomed to a couple with acres of land, and one dog who happened to be pining for her companion that they'd recently lost, the breeder charged them the princely sum of £50 and probably spent more than that on petrol meeting them half way up to Scotland.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Thinking of the money right to the end them!! If I were EVER in that position £50 measly quid woud NEVER even enter my head! I Please don't tell me she never made enough out of the bitch whilst she were breeding!
> 
> BUT!! that said - there are probably just a few that are rehomed for the better! but the £50 discredited that one imo!


DT, the money didn't even cover the petrol costs, so no, not thinking of the money at all. The bitch in question was a very well bred bitch, and she'd taken two litters, the second one, under the advice of vets, although she had her doubts as she'd not had a smooth first whelp. She spent more money in vets bills than you or I would care to add up, and all the pups were endorsed to prevent any problems related to the bitches inability to whelp smoothly. So no, you've got entirely the wrong end of the stick there DT


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## Guest (May 25, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> DT, the money didn't even cover the petrol costs, so no, not thinking of the money at all. The bitch in question was a very well bred bitch, and she'd taken two litters, the second one, under the advice of vets, although she had her doubts as she'd not had a smooth first whelp. She spent more money in vets bills than you or I would care to add up, and all the pups were endorsed to prevent any problems related to the bitches inability to whelp smoothly. So no, you've got entirely the wrong end of the stick there DT


When I spend over 11,000ktying to save my 4 yo I am conversant with what vets cost! Again I stress the £50 would NEVER have entered my head ! Being in those shoes myself I would have paid the other parties fuels costs anyway! the fifty quidputs asmearon it imv

Anyway - got torun - off to the vets again!
BUT!! I do agree -there is perhaps the odd time when it is for thebest! BUT I would expect any decent breeder to pay either insurance or for any medicaltreatnentthatdog would require for life! (and know someone who hasdone such) but thats me! and I am ODD!very odd!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> When I spend over 11,000ktying to save my 4 yo I am conversant with what vets cost! Again I stress the £50 would NEVER have entered my head ! Being in those shoes myself I would have paid the other parties fuels costs anyway! the fifty quidputs asmearon it imv
> 
> Anyway - got torun - off to the vets again!
> BUT!! I do agree -there is perhaps the odd time when it is for thebest! BUT I would expect any decent breeder to pay either insurance or for any medicaltreatnentthatdog would require for life! (and know someone who hasdone such) but thats me! and I am ODD!very odd!


It maybe wouldn't have entered their mind, except for the couple who contacted them asking if they had any older dogs available to buy, they didn't want a pup at all. Up until that point, it hadn't entered their mind to even look for another home, and the £50 was just a figure they pulled out of the air.

DT, you are indeed very odd, but I don't think we'd want you any other way


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

If the bitch is spayed before re-homing and placed in an excellent home, I would say it's often in the dogs best interest 

But I can see both sides of the coin. If I was breeding, which I have no plans to, I couldn't do it. So that would mean I had too many dogs to cope with or would have to give up breeding after several years.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

shazalhasa said:


> I can understand though how some need to rehome in order to keep their lines going. It's not always possible to keep a load of older dogs/bitches so the best thing for these dogs probably would be a new home where they will get the time and attention that would normally be split between quite a few dogs. It shouldn't be seen as a bad thing as long as it's done right and the new home is a good one.


I agree with this



DoubleTrouble said:


> I am with the majority here and think it is terrible! these people that do this can NEVER have seen their dog as a loved family pet to be able to do this!
> 
> BUT that said - I would rather is be done thenthink that 'that' bitch would never ever experience, the love of a family ,care nor normality if left with that 'type' of breeder!
> DT


not every dog is kept as a family pet. A big breeder (not a puppy farmer) cannot possibly give every dog the attention that it would get in a family home. The dog is a working dog to them, either breeding or showing, so once its career is over it makes sense to put it into a family home if it is the sort of dog that will convert to a totally different lifestyle without stress.

What is the difference between someone that keeps a dog purely for showing or breeding and someone that keeps one purely to work sheep or as a gundog. Once they have retired or failed they are often rehomed. Do you consider it wrong to rehome a failed sheep dog or should it be chained up in a shed and left there for the rest of its life as it is wrong to rehome it. Even if it normally kept in the house there may not be room for the new dog as well so the old one may need to be rehomed. I must say it would not sit easy with me for a collie to be rehomed if it retires through old age at 10 or 11 and I think it would be kinder to have it pts if the farmer does not have space for it to retire in comfort but I have nothing against any dog being rehomed IF something has changed it will be better off in a new home.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She was rehomed to a couple with acres of land, and one dog who happened to be pining for her companion that they'd recently lost, the breeder charged them the princely sum of £50 and probably spent more than that on petrol meeting them half way up to Scotland.


If she had spayed her fair enough ... otherwise money grabbing.

I think it's acceptable for a breeder to charge a fee to cover spaying costs as I would be paying for this anyway.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> If she had spayed her fair enough ... otherwise money grabbing.
> 
> I think it's acceptable for a breeder to charge a fee to cover spaying costs as I would be paying for this anyway.


She was spayed during the c-section, the vet had advised her they didn't think she'd have any problems, otherwise they wouldn't have gone ahead with the second litter. It was a real shame as the bitch was absolutely beautiful, stunning temperament as well, but it just obviously wasn't meant to be. After the breeder had kept back a pup (from a different bitch), and as they also had pedigree cats which they showed, it all got a bit too much and she used to take herself off into the corner to keep out of the way of everyone. When the couple rang up out of the blue and explained their situation about having lost a dog, they didn't say yes straight away, but eventually decided that it was in the best interests of their bitch, and never looked back. She's still living a full and active life with her new best friend a GSD, and owners, in the beautiful Scottish countryside.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She was spayed during the c-section, the vet had advised her they didn't think she'd have any problems, otherwise they wouldn't have gone ahead with the second litter. It was a real shame as the bitch was absolutely beautiful, stunning temperament as well, but it just obviously wasn't meant to be. After the breeder had kept back a pup (from a different bitch), and as they also had pedigree cats which they showed, it all got a bit too much and she used to take herself off into the corner to keep out of the way of everyone. When the couple rang up out of the blue and explained their situation about having lost a dog, they didn't say yes straight away, but eventually decided that it was in the best interests of their bitch, and never looked back. She's still living a full and active life with her new best friend a GSD, and owners, in the beautiful Scottish countryside.


Then in fairness, I think the breeder was well within reason to ask for £50.00 ... 

Sure it suits breeder as dog of no more use but many would ask for more than that ... I know this from experience 

I spoke o a breeder last year about bitch they had for sale ... similar history as above and they wanted a couple of hundred less than what they wanted for puppies they had 

No way.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Blitz said:


> not every dog is kept as a family pet. A big breeder (not a puppy farmer) cannot possibly give every dog the attention that it would get in a family home. The dog is a working dog to them, either breeding or showing, so once its career is over it makes sense to put it into a family home if it is the sort of dog that will convert to a totally different lifestyle without stress.


Does that sound right to you? Don't breeders keep their dogs as *pets*, first and foremost? Thats what every breeder on here has said!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Now bitches can only have three Registered litters, a breeding bitch could be done with breeding by the age of 5 or 6. This is no age for a dog. 
I think they should be given a chance of a life as a pet. To be someone`s special dog. 
Consider the alternatives.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Then in fairness, I think the breeder was well within reason to ask for £50.00 ...
> 
> Sure it suits breeder as dog of no more use but many would ask for more than that ... I know this from experience
> 
> ...


Some do sadly, but then at least, if they are rehoming a spayed ex-breeding bitch themselves, it doesn't end up in rescue, or you would hope. Unfortunately, not everyone is that thoughtful, I know of bitches bought from breeders specifically to be bred from again 



luvmydogs said:


> Does that sound right to you? Don't breeders keep their dogs as *pets*, first and foremost? Thats what every breeder on here has said!


Not everyone has their dogs as 'pets' as you would think of today, more like working animals/companions, but that doesn't mean they don't care for or about them, and don't have a close working relationship/bond. But with any working animal, they can and do get moved on. If you compete with your dogs, and only have a limited number of spaces, a dog that isn't suitable for competition will be sold on, otherwise it's 'dead weight' - you would hope that they would only rehome to an appropriate home, and keep in touch with the new owners, that does happen, definitely, but unfortunately, others just don't care where their dogs end up. But just because some do rehome badly, is it right to view rehoming in general as wrong?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not everyone has their dogs as 'pets' as you would think of today, more like working animals/companions, but that doesn't mean they don't care for or about them, and don't have a close working relationship/bond. But with any working animal, they can and do get moved on. If you compete with your dogs, and only have a limited number of spaces, a dog that isn't suitable for competition will be sold on, otherwise it's 'dead weight' - you would hope that they would only rehome to an appropriate home, and keep in touch with the new owners, that does happen, definitely, but unfortunately, others just don't care where their dogs end up. But just because some do rehome badly, is it right to view rehoming in general as wrong?


Now *working*, I absolutely understand. But are brood bitches and stud dogs really working? Is the only reason they are kept to breed?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> Now *working*, I absolutely understand. But are brood bitches and stud dogs really working? Is the only reason they are kept to breed?


yes it is the only reason some people have dogs - they are working dogs, their work is to breed - and so long as they are not overbred and they are kept well then is there anything wrong with it.

I met someone today who greeted my dogs, obviously liked dogs and asked if they were miniature poodles. I told him they were and that I had had standards in the past. His reply was that surely it didnt matter what size they were as they were worth the same - I asked him what he meant and he said their puppies would fetch the same money.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> Now *working*, I absolutely understand. But are brood bitches and stud dogs really working? Is the only reason they are kept to breed?


I suppose that's very much on how you view showing, some may well view it as a 'working' role. But I think if you're churning out and rehome to the degree as mentioned earlier (beagles), burdening rescue organisations with your unwanted breeding stock, then you're not much better than a puppy farmer. The only respect in which that type of breeder is a shade better, is that at least they are producing proven good examples of a breed, but obviously far too many. And in some respects they are worse, because they try and hide behind a respectable facade. If every breeder were open and honest up front about how much they bred and where all their dogs ended up, it would open a few eyes I'm sure.


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## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

I can see both sides of it and I think it depends on the individual breeder! It's like saying that rehoming dogs they kept to show that didn't meat the grade got rehomed I don't believe that's true!

I know of a few breeders who re home ex broods and they are rehomed spayed and they only charge the spay fee and ensure it's a good home. PersOnally I don't see an issue with that. It's not something I personally could do but I get extremely attached to my dogs. I think as long as they are rehomed spayed/neutered then it's good! 

At the end of the day people should be breeding to improve the breed, they are showing and breeding spending fortunes to improve their breed and can only keep a certain amount of dogs and give them the love and care they need so keeping more than they can cope with would only be detrimental to the dogs well being


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## Sammy123 (Nov 9, 2010)

Myfynwy said:


> What does every one think of this practise?
> 
> My instinctual ignorance says that it shows a lack of care for each dog, instead seeing them as breeding machines - and presumably there are some unethical (ie byb) for whom this is the case.
> 
> However, if someone really is breeding for the breeds improvement, considering how long dogs live, that to make a real difference without spending 20 years at it, you would need to breed more often, from more dogs, than you may feel you can comfortable look after.


I dont like breeders with outdoor kennels and 15 dogs in there. Although they say they breed for line improvement and do all the possible health tests, my opinion is that they do it for money. I went to see such a breeder once and when he confessed that he rehomes his broods after 6 years of age, it really shocked me. Why on earth do you have so many then if you cant keep them all as pets? Why? More dogs-more money. And although as I said all the tests were done and everything was wrapped nicely, these dogs were not micro-chipped apparently because a chip can travel and ta-da-da-da-da. Micro-chipping makes them traceable, fact.

My opinion is that every single dog that is rehomed by breeder, no matter what the reason is, takes away potential homes for strays.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sammy123 said:


> I dont like breeders with outdoor kennels and 15 dogs in there. Although they say they breed for line improvement and do all the possible health tests, my opinion is that they do it for money. I went to see such a breeder once and when he confessed that he rehomes his broods after 6 years of age, it really shocked me. Why on earth do you have so many then if you cant keep them all as pets? Why? More dogs-more money. And although as I said all the tests were done and everything was wrapped nicely, these dogs were not micro-chipped apparently because a chip can travel and ta-da-da-da-da. Micro-chipping makes them traceable, fact.
> 
> My opinion is that every single dog that is rehomed by breeder, no matter what the reason is, takes away potential homes for strays.


Sorry, but I know people who always kennel their dogs, only breed one, maybe two litters per year with the aim of keeping a pup back, sometimes move dogs on to a home if they're not what they want for working/breeding, but do so in the best way they can, ie a good home, stay in touch and endorsed or retaining paperwork even.

As has been said, I don't think you can (like most things in life) make a sweeping statement about selling on ex breeding dogs, or moving on dogs that aren't quite right, it's like saying all pet owners who rehome their dogs are awful. Sometimes it has to be done, and is in the dogs' best interest, and then you get those who put their 7 year old dog into rescue so they can get a new puppy in time for Christmas  Anyone who would like to rescue Tiny the Rottie who is still in rescue I believe, please take a peek here Tiny (South East Dog Rescue, Kent) » Oldies Club - pet owners are, by far, the most fickle when it comes to getting rid of their dogs, I think.


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## Sammy123 (Nov 9, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry, but I know people who always kennel their dogs, only breed one, maybe two litters per year with the aim of keeping a pup back, sometimes move dogs on to a home if they're not what they want for working/breeding, but do so in the best way they can, ie a good home, stay in touch and endorsed or retaining paperwork even.
> 
> As has been said, I don't think you can (like most things in life) make a sweeping statement about selling on ex breeding dogs, or moving on dogs that aren't quite right, it's like saying all pet owners who rehome their dogs are awful. Sometimes it has to be done, and is in the dogs' best interest, and then you get those who put their 7 year old dog into rescue so they can get a new puppy in time for Christmas  Anyone who would like to rescue Tiny the Rottie who is still in rescue I believe, please take a peek here Tiny (South East Dog Rescue, Kent) » Oldies Club - pet owners are, by far, the most fickle when it comes to getting rid of their dogs, I think.


This was my opinion on big scale breeding and nothing will ever make me support them. And for me it is not the same when a pet needs to be rehomed due to sad circumstances. I do however judge people as you mention who rehome their pets due to new puppy coming and so on. I will never understand that.

A big scale breeder is responsible for giving births every year for so called breed improvement purposes and shouldnt get rid of dogs because their breeding/showing career has finished. For me this is like saying goodbye to your child because they let you down by not graduating or not being able to produce grandchildren or being gay
But, I would ban big scale breeding anyway. No offence!!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I do not feel that its ethical to rehome a dog because its of no more use to a breeding programme, although there will be times where a breeder does rehome a dog that has been bred from, one that is possibly fightng with another brood bitch - this would of course be in the best interest of both dogs, and as long as a nice pet home was sought I wouldnt disagree, however sending to rescue is another problem. I understand that at times some breeders will move dogs on they themselves have bred and showed from, sending them abroad and the like to help create new lines with new breeders, also helping to widen the gene pool - again I have no problems with this..This is not the same as 'getting rid of a dog that is no longer 'needed'..'


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## Sammy123 (Nov 9, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I do not feel that its ethical to rehome a dog because its of no more use to a breeding programme, although there will be times where a breeder does rehome a dog that has been bred from, one that is possibly fightng with another brood bitch - this would of course be in the best interest of both dogs, and as long as a nice pet home was sought I wouldnt disagree, however sending to rescue is another problem. I understand that at times some breeders will move dogs on they themselves have bred and showed from, sending them abroad and the like to help create new lines with new breeders, also helping to widen the gene pool - again I have no problems with this..This is not the same as 'getting rid of a dog that is no longer 'needed'..'


Isn't this thread about rehoming ex-breeding bitches not sending healthy and young bitches/dogs abroad?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Sammy123 said:


> Isn't this thread about rehoming ex-breeding bitches not sending healthy and young bitches/dogs abroad?


I am just putting a spanner in the works..not all ex breeding bitches will be unhealthy, and ex breeding bitches may also be sent abroad to continue showing and the like  Just because someone rehomes a dog that has had a litter or two doesnt mean its done for one reason alone (that being its not wanted or needed!)


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't agree with throwing away an animal just because you can't have any more litters out of them or they didn't make the grade. A dog that is truly miserable in your home yes


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

cavmad said:


> I could never do it but sometimes the bitch has a better life in a loving home.The people that tend to rehome their old bitches usually have kennels or a lot of dogs so much better for the bitch to find a nice sofa and a human bed to sleep on.I have several x puppy farm dogs that would have had an even more horrid life/death if they werent allowed out to be rehomed


So many people make things appear black and white, when in reality - there are many shades of grey.

My eldest bitch has had two litters, she will be here with me until the day she is no longer with us - my second eldest bitch can't be bred from - she too is going nowhere.

My eldest's daughter is shown regularly and had one litter - I do sometimes wonder whether she would be happier living in a one on one environment - NOTHING to do with my convenience or otherwise.

------------------------

It's not just about breeding, showing or working - it's about what is sometimes *best for the dog*.

I rehomed conformationally and pedigree wise, the best dog I've ever owned -because he wasn't happy - he's now neutered, living on an 80 acre farm with it's own ponds and the sea on the doorstep and is as happy as a pig in sh*t -which he wasn't living here.

The easy answer would have been to keep him, he cost me a lot of money to buy, to show, to health-test - no problems with him, super temperament, I could have kept him and made a lot of money from him had I been of that mindset - but no - I gave him away to a friend of a friend who I know could give him the lifestyle he needed and deserved

I don't consider that makes me a bad owner or breeder - it simply means I put my dog's needs and wellbeing before my own - if anyone thinks that is wrong - then clearly the wishes of the owner come before the needs of the dog


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry, but I know people who always kennel their dogs, only breed one, maybe two litters per year with the aim of keeping a pup back, sometimes move dogs on to a home if they're not what they want for working/breeding, but do so in the best way they can, ie a good home, stay in touch and endorsed or retaining paperwork even.
> 
> As has been said, I don't think you can (like most things in life) make a sweeping statement about selling on ex breeding dogs, or moving on dogs that aren't quite right, it's like saying all pet owners who rehome their dogs are awful. Sometimes it has to be done, and is in the dogs' best interest, and then you get those who put their 7 year old dog into rescue so they can get a new puppy in time for Christmas  Anyone who would like to rescue Tiny the Rottie who is still in rescue I believe, please take a peek here Tiny (South East Dog Rescue, Kent) » Oldies Club - pet owners are, by far, the most fickle when it comes to getting rid of their dogs, I think.


Sorry, I was just clarifying that some people who have kennelled dogs, and who also breed, certainly aren't commercial breeders and treat their dogs very well, kennelled dogs doesn't equal a bad owner or breeder


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## Guest (May 25, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She was spayed during the c-section, the vet had advised her they didn't think she'd have any problems, otherwise they wouldn't have gone ahead with the second litter. It was a real shame as the bitch was absolutely beautiful, stunning temperament as well, but it just obviously wasn't meant to be. After the breeder had kept back a pup (from a different bitch), and as they also had pedigree cats which they showed, it all got a bit too much and she used to take herself off into the corner to keep out of the way of everyone. When the couple rang up out of the blue and explained their situation about having lost a dog, they didn't say yes straight away, but eventually decided that it was in the best interests of their bitch, and never looked back. She's still living a full and active life with her new best friend a GSD, and owners, in the beautiful Scottish countryside.


Awh! now we get to the bottom of it! The bitch could have no more puppies so the breeder decided to move her on!

But I DO on this occassion happen to think that the breeder DID do what was best for that dog! BUT I still think that to even charge £50 is a bit of a insult to that dog , meat money if you like!! NOW! have you told me she had asked the couple to have donated a sum over and above £50 to an animal charity the I would have taken my hat off to that breeder!

Told ya I was odd!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Awh! now we get to the bottom of it! The bitch could have no more puppies so the breeder decided to move her on!
> 
> But I DO on this occassion happen to think that the breeder DID do what was best for that dog! BUT I still think that to even charge £50 is a bit of a insult to that dog , meat money if you like!! NOW! have you told me she had asked the couple to have donated a sum over and above £50 to an animal charity the I would have taken my hat off to that breeder!
> 
> Told ya I was odd!


No hun, if they hadn't been asked, the bitch would have stayed put, but this couple approached them asking for an older dog as theirs had died, and they wanted another of the same breed as a companion for their remaining dog, who was pining. When asked, they pulled the figure of £50 out of the air and said they'd think about it, and eventually decided it was best for the bitch, and agreed to meet the couple with their dog half way up to Scotland. The dogs hit it off, and so they ended up taking her back with them.

Edited to add, if they'd really wanted to make money from her they could have just sold her entire and not mentioned the whelping problems, she has quite a nice pedigree and no-one would have been any the wiser, until they tried to breed from her of course.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

I don't like it, unless there are exceptional circumstances i.e. all dogs going, can't look after her any more etc.

Personally, to me it indicates the dog was nothing but a breeder in the first place.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Myfynwy said:


> What does every one think of this practise?
> 
> My instinctual ignorance says that it shows a lack of care for each dog, instead seeing them as breeding machines - and presumably there are some unethical (ie byb) for whom this is the case.
> 
> However, if someone really is breeding for the breeds improvement, considering how long dogs live, that to make a real difference without spending 20 years at it, you would need to breed more often, from more dogs, than you may feel you can comfortable look after.


I keep mine They are my pets before anything else.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry but that's like saying all breeders are puppy farmers, there may come a point where someone who is breeding feels that a particular bitch, or even dog, isn't getting the attention or peace and quiet, one to one that they could get in another home, or just doesn't enjoy their role, there are stud dogs that just don't take to it.


I'm sorry but if someone took on a pet dog, then another, and another, and another, then rescued another few, then realised that the dogs weren't getting enough attention, people would be up in arms. You shouldn't take on more than you can handle or offer love and attention, and I don't see why breeding is any differant.

Some breeders should definately have more respect for their dogs (not aimed at you by the way S-L!)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Tapir said:


> I'm sorry but if someone took on a pet dog, then another, and another, and another, then rescued another few, then realised that the dogs weren't getting enough attention, people would be up in arms. You shouldn't take on more than you can handle or offer love and attention, and I don't see why breeding is any differant.
> 
> Some breeders should definately have more respect for their dogs (not aimed at you by the way S-L!)


I know it isn't aimed at me 

But there is a vast difference between taking on various pets, and taking on animals as part of a breeding programme, or to work/compete, yes they can still be a valued companion, but to some people, that does not mean that should circumstances arise where they need to move a dog on, and the right home is available, they wouldn't do so.

Some people keep chickens as pets, and others keep them as layers and rehome older hens that aren't as productive to 'pet' homes, either that or they end up in the pot. For some reason, we have this bizarre tendency to humanise some animals more than others.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Tapir said:


> I'm sorry but if someone took on a pet dog, then another, and another, and another, then rescued another few, then realised that the dogs weren't getting enough attention, people would be up in arms. You shouldn't take on more than you can handle or offer love and attention, and I don't see why breeding is any differant.
> 
> Some breeders should definately have more respect for their dogs (not aimed at you by the way S-L!)


Not rescue but buy in / breed.

I have two more dogs now than I did when I rehomed my boy - but you NEVER know how a puppy will turn out - and this particular dog wasn't happy - I didn't rehome him to 'any old person' - turning around 50 + people away who had heard about him through word of mouth before we found the right family - no money was involved (financial loss to me in excess of £2K) - it was about finding the home that was right for him - and I get regular updates on his life and antics.

I struggle to understand why anyone would say it is cruel to rehome an unhappy dog - and kinder to keep it - I broke my heart for what could have been when I did rehome him - but it was *RIGHT FOR HIM*.

If I had been a money orientated breeder - I would have kept him - unhappy as he was - and used him at stud - I am sure the visiting bitches would have put a smile on his face and he would have saved me a fortune on pre-mate testing because he knew exactly when the girls were bang on for mating.

Luckily for me, I am not a money orientated breeder - I want what is best for my dogs, and in this case - it happened to be the dog no longer living with us.

You are right SL - people do tend to humanise dogs, - if I had looked for advice on this forum, I would have kept an unhappy dog and been quids in by now - yet - I am the one who will no doubt be accused by some of being cruel for doing the right thing


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I have rehomed a dog that was unhappy with me. But I took this thread to mean people who had dogs for breeding only, and when said dogs were past breeding age, they were sold on.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> I have rehomed a dog that was unhappy with me. But I took this thread to mean people who had dogs for breeding only, and when said dogs were past breeding age, they were sold on.


Yes, I appreciate it was about breeding bitches - and if the circumstances are right, then I can understand why someone would do it - these dogs are not rehomed to any old person - it's often to friends / friends of friends who will give these dogs loving one on one homes - that doesn't mean the breeder didn't love it - just that sometimes that is a better option for the dog and the new owner.

Having said all that - as breeders and exhibitors, one could construe that the mentality around rehoming would be the same for any dog, not just breeding bitches.

For the record, PF don't 'kindly rehome' their bitches once their breeding life has finished - they either dump them on Rescues such as Many Tears - or, I've been told by a reliable - they take them to a remote location and shoot them.

If anyone wants to target their anger at people who discard their breeding stock - once again - they should be looking at the Puppy Farmers first and foremost


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## Sammy123 (Nov 9, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Yes, I appreciate it was about breeding bitches - and if the circumstances are right, then I can understand why someone would do it - these dogs are not rehomed to any old person - it's often to friends / friends of friends who will give these dogs loving one on one homes - that doesn't mean the breeder didn't love it - just that sometimes that is a better option for the dog and the new owner.
> 
> Having said all that - as breeders and exhibitors, one could construe that the mentality around rehoming would be the same for any dog, not just breeding bitches.
> 
> ...


This is like saying to a child who doesnt do well in maths or grammar to compare himself with the worst and least clever in class. I compare rehoming of ex-breeding bitches with breeders that would never do that, unless really inevitable situation.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sammy123 said:


> This is like saying to a child who doesnt do well in maths or grammar to compare himself with the worst and least clever in class. I compare rehoming of ex-breeding bitches with breeders that would never do that, unless really inevitable situation.


So you would rather people end in the situation of a couple of recent breeders, prosecuted for having so many dogs, all dogs taken into rescue and the owner heavily fined and banned from keeping dogs?

For the record, all my bitches are still with me, bred from or not - however - we already know that it simply isn't possible to meet puppy demand from show, working and responsible pet breeders - some naive people then think that prospective owners will go to rescue - in the majority of cases it does not happen - and these people will end up going to PF who will continue to shoot or dump their ex-breeding bitches.

So if all responsible ethical breeders who breed to continue their lines which may necessitate them rehoming older dog - stopped doing it because some people don't like it - all it will do it further line the pockets of PF and BYB - directly condemning even MORE bitches to horrendous lives, and often horrific deaths - but hey ho - that's OK - so long as no ethical breeder kindly and responsibly rehomes an older bitch.

People should be careful what they wish for, because some really cannot see the wood for the trees - it's the same for every would be responsible pet / show or working breeder - for each new one we can encourage to do everything 'by the book' will remove business from the puppy farmers - for each one who is unable to further their lines because of lack of time or space, it is inadvertently increasing PF and BYB profits 

It's a simple logic to meet supply and demand that sadly people simply cannot get their heads around.

As for your analogy of children with maths and grammar - what in gods name are you talking about? it's not even a realistic comparison - or are you saying that parents with children not good at maths or grammar would swap their kids for those that are


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

It is not surprising there are two strong schools of thought on here because there are two (or more)types of dog owners. Basically though, anyone posting on here is likely to be a pet owner, a lot are new pet owners, and obviously would not be discarding their ex breeding bitch - or in most cases even having a breeding bitch in the first place.

It is not though a case of what would 'I' do, it is a case of what is sensible for a breeder in the situation when a bitch that has been kept purely for breeding/showing, comes to the end of her career but still has many years of life left to give to the right home. Do they hang on to that bitch or do they give her the chance of a lovely life with someone else. If they are serious breeders they probably want a minimum of 2 bitches breeding most years, or at least being able to breed. So there first two reach 5 or 6 years old and they already have 2 more coming on ready to breed from, so that is 4 dogs. But of course by that time they need 2 more to bring on so actually it is 6 dogs. They are going to need 2 pups to bring on every year or so so quickly they have an unmanageable amount of dogs that are getting little attention. Space is short so the whelping bitches are not getting the room or probably the attention they should be getting. These were never planned on being pet dogs though the breeder loves them dearly and probably has them in the house.

So what is better - that they get rehomed to a good pet home or life carries on for them with the breeder. Of course that breeder could say that they wont have more bitches to breed from but then they wont be doing what they want to do. And of course some breeders will make that decision but if they make the decision to rehome then that is very sensible in their situation and is putting the dogs needs first.

Just because you would not do it with your much loved dog does not mean it is wrong for someone else to do it. What would be wrong is to dump said bitch on a rescue and I dont believe that any GOOD breeder would do this - but it does not make them a BAD breeder because they pass on a middle aged bitch to a home where she will be appreciated and looked after well.


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## Sammy123 (Nov 9, 2010)

swarthy said:


> So you would rather people end in the situation of a couple of recent breeders, prosecuted for having so many dogs, all dogs taken into rescue and the owner heavily fined and banned from keeping dogs?
> 
> For the record, all my bitches are still with me, bred from or not - however - we already know that it simply isn't possible to meet puppy demand from show, working and responsible pet breeders - some naive people then think that prospective owners will go to rescue - in the majority of cases it does not happen - and these people will end up going to PF who will continue to shoot or dump their ex-breeding bitches.
> 
> ...


*So you would rather people end in the situation of a couple of recent breeders, prosecuted for having so many dogs, all dogs taken into rescue and the owner heavily fined and banned from keeping dogs? *
I am not quite sure what made you think that? And also I dont know what the circumstances were.

*As for your analogy of children with maths and grammar - what in gods name are you talking about? it's not even a realistic comparison - or are you saying that parents with children not good at maths or grammar would swap their kids for those that are *

No, you were comparing re-homing of dogs to PF and BYB so what I meant was that bad things (in my opinion re-homing of ex-breeding dogs) should not always be compared to even worst. It is like some people say my glass is half empty and others would say my glass is still half fullSo why not comparing breeders that do re-home their breeding stock to breeders that would never do that. I didnt want to insult your views on breeding and your need to re-home one of your dogs.

In my previous posts I was referring to commercial breeding, when every bitch/dog is re-homed after the breeding career is finished. Do you think that is good and ethical? To have 15 dogs, breed them and then re-home every single one of them? I call this a business and I believe this should not be made legal. PF, I wouldnt even go there!


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## franob (Apr 9, 2011)

A couple of thoughts/questions to those people who may think it is 'ok' to rehome ex-breeding animals because they no longer serve a purpose:

1) Why do you show (if that is what you do)? Is it 'to further the breed'? If so, then surely churning out 'new' animals and getting rid of 'old animals' simply avoids the issue that the 'old' animal is still an active part of the breed you are trying to 'further', doesn't it? Does that member of the breed you are so 'passionate' about no longer count as being a worthy specimen? 

2) As animal owners surely their welfare has to come first? It was pointed out by a poster that a breeder could cease breeding to ensure they weren't overrun but that would leave them 'not doing what they want'. What is the problem with this? You have taken an animal into your home, they are dependent on you for everything - your needs come way down the line. I quite like watching TV, if I'm clearing up poo in the garden I can't do what I want but hey ho! The case of breeders ending up with their dogs taken away because they couldn't cope with the numbers - should they have rehomed some to get space? They could have, but surely far better for the ANIMAL would have been for them to STOP breeding once they reached their 'limit'. Failure to do this isn't a good advocate for rehoming, it is surely an indicator that some breeders will breed beyond their capacity.

3) That animal surely has a bond with you - with some breeds that is a very major issue. How can you justify this bond being broken?

I fully appreciate that some dogs from breeding homes will be rehomed because they are unhappy but I do believe strongly that many of those dogs could have been made 'happy' by the people who owned them changing something for their benefit in their own home.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

This topic has been on my mind a lot and this thread has been an interesting read.

I was brought up with the mantra 'a dog is for life', and this is so very firmly fixed in my mind that I find it very hard to see the other side of the coin so to speak.

I struggle with the concept of people breeding dogs, NOT talking PF's or large scale breeders here or working dog owners here, just smaller scale breeders that take litters from their bitches and then rehome once this role has been fulfilled.

I can think of a few examples now where a bitch has been moved on, not because they were unhappy, or as a result of personal tragic circumstances etc. They had had their litters and were rehomed, simple as. At a guess more room was needed and/or perhaps those rehoming thought a new home might be even better than the currrent one they had spent the first six or so yrs of their life in, I don't know. All I do know is that it would break my heart to rehome a dog I had had for several years who had never questioned the fact that I had taken a few litters from and made a decent amount of cash - yes I know breeding is costly but I also know with experience the outlay is less (equpiment costs etc), and god willing when things go well, with the right dog, dog breed and market, money is quite often made.

Sometimes it feels like such a selfish, if not calculated decision where dogs take on a more 'livestock' role (and they're not supposed to be as if they were they'd be licensed by DEFRA for one) - the possible influence of money, ego, hobbies in some scenarios etc leaves me cold.

Thank you for letting me get this off my chest. Doesn't mean I'm right, I know that, it's just how I feel.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I know this is an old thread that has been resurrected but it makes interesting reading and I still feel the same way - but something else came to mind while I was reading it.

Guide dogs - They are puppy walked so live with a family till they are about a year old. They must be very well bonded. Then they go into kennels and are trained. It must be awful for them while they settle in. Then they get to live with a blind person who they are with all the time and get the most amazing bond with. Then they retire and very often the blind person needs a new dog and cant keep two so the old dog is rehomed yet again. 
yet these dogs are happy and well balanced and have a wonderful life.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

franob said:


> A couple of thoughts/questions to those people who may think it is 'ok' to rehome ex-breeding animals because they no longer serve a purpose:
> 
> 1) Why do you show (if that is what you do)? Is it 'to further the breed'? If so, then surely churning out 'new' animals and getting rid of 'old animals' simply avoids the issue that the 'old' animal is still an active part of the breed you are trying to 'further', doesn't it? Does that member of the breed you are so 'passionate' about no longer count as being a worthy specimen?
> 
> ...


1) Ethical breeders don't churn out puppies at the rate of PF's and BYB's, it's therefore much rarer for them to consider rehoming an older dog that's *finished* it's career, it does happen, I've given one example where it was definitely for the benefit of the bitch concerned, even though the breeder was not actively looking to rehome her.

2) You're referring to Swarthy's post, so you would prefer to see ethical breeders stop breeding, and allow puppy farmers to fill this gap, rather than the occasional rehomed ex breeding dog? Which would, of course, lead to even more ex breeding stock being rehomed from PF's etc, following this course of action, or just taken to a field somewhere and shot.

3) You'd be surprised how little your dogs think of you, should you ever need to rehome a dog, they bond very quickly in the right home, you come way down the line as far as they're concerned, as long as they are getting their needs met, food, warmth, exercise etc.

I could give up doing w hat I enjoy with my dogs, why should I, we all get one shot at life. I wouldn't like to say I'd never rehome a dog that just didn't fit right, but I certainly wouldn't keep an animal in a situation that made it unhappy. I've also taken on rescue dogs in the past, to give them a second chance at a permanent home, and will most likely do so again, they bonded with me absolutely fine, and got the care and attention they needed.

The question is, as has been pointed out, not a black and white issue, people feel uncomfortable with the very mention of it, and are very quick to condemn, I only hope they never find themselves in the situation where they realise they aren't the best home possible for their dogs/animals.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

It does make an interesting read Blitz you are right.

Even breeders who MIGHT rehome some of their ex-breeding bitches don't always do so - IMHO - you do what is in the BEST INTEREST of an individual dog.

I have rehomed - not because a dog is no longer of use to me - but because they are not happy living in the environment they are - I will ALWAYS put my own dogs above my own selfish needs, and if that means rehoming a dog to ensure it lives out it's days in the happiest way imaginable, then I will do it.

My (intended) foundation bitch didn't make the mark on her health-tests - she stayed - she was a fabulous show dog, but then injured her leg, - she had thousands of pounds worth of treatment, and still stayed and she will NEVER go anywhere -because she is one of the few dogs I've ever encountered that I don't believe would survive without me - I am a great believer that most dogs need love, food, shelter and warmth, and will love and remain faithful to anyone who gives that to them - occasionally, you get a dog that is 'different' - and this girl is different.

If I had a penny for the number of people who've tried to take her away from me I would be rich now - but she will be here until the day mother nature decides she shouldn't be.

My eldest bitch was bought as a pet, we later showed her and took two litters from her - she is no longer shown, she can't be bred from - but she will be here with us until mother nature decides otherwise. 

Her daughter OTOH - reasonable showdog - bred me a fabulous litter - conformationally far better than herself - but she lost something the day she had that litter and never got it back - she would sit just looking unhappy - and nothing we could do could change that - I spent TWO YEARS agonising over what to do - suddenly, a family who had lost their old girl came along, their remaining girl was grieving dreadfully, and they didn't feel up to having another puppy - they've given my girl her spark back and some - I broke my heart - I cried all the way home, I cried for nights - it took me weeks to adjust to her not being here - and even now, I look for her - she's having a fantastic life.

She wasn't an ex-breeding bitch - she was 4.5 years old - plenty of breeding life let in her - and she produced very nice babies too - but it wasn't fair or right to breed her again, she was so unhappy it was awful - the right people came along - and now they are all happy - the fact I bitterly regret everything from mating her to leaving her go are immaterial - HER happiness came first - and will come first with every one of my dogs.

I have her half sister who doesn't like showing - 3 now - she MIGHT be bred from, she might not, - but she won't be going anywhere.

------------------------------------

Unselfish people put the needs of the dog before their own - and that means not rehoming to the first person who comes along, but rehoming IF it is right for the dog with the right location 

I did it with a young boy who hated showing and didn't like living in such a confined envvironment - he now lives on an 80 acre farm and has a ball.

Just between the three dogs (the one I couldn't breed from) and the two I rehomed I've lost THOUSANDS - had no money in return - but that doesn't matter - all that matters is that they have the type of life they deserve - and in both instances, I didn't feel I was able to give it to them - I make NO apology for that - the dog came first in both instances, and if I felt it necessary, i would make the same decision again.

Nothing to do with space for me, if I don't have space, I don't breed or buy in, SIMPLES.

Unfortunately - some people DO continue to keep their dogs and breed, and it has led to many sad situations of people being unable to cope - and dogs ending up PTS or rehomed here, there and everywhere.

Knowing your own limitations in terms of giving an animal the life they need and deserve - which may differ from A,B and C who live in the same family isn't a crime, it's an example of an owner with common sense and a conscience. 

Rehoming it thoughtlessly or abandoning it is a crime - rehoming it with thought and consideration however long it might take is responsible and certainly in my situation, absolutely nothing to do with their capacity to show / breed or serve any other function.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

i dont like the idea.

i have always had a dog to the bitter end and that is how it will stay.

i do know of many breeders who are not puppy farms and only have 1 or 2 litters a year (from different bitches) but who rehome the unwanted bitches or dogs that have not produced a litter or not done so well in the show ring or has retired and they move to what they call their forever home.

i do not understand it personally as they always say they love their dogs like children and then give them away, they find them good homes but it would kill me to give up a dog because it didn't meet a certain height or something.

also they are so picky with the new puppy owners making sure they will keep them forever when they do not hold the same standards to themselves. when i signed an agreement to keep alfie i meant i would keep him to love him and look after him i didnt say he will be coming back if he doesnt get tall enough for the show ring!

this is just a personal opinion and not meant to offend anyone.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> i dont like the idea.
> 
> i have always had a dog to the bitter end and that is how it will stay.


OK - let's turn that on it's head - dogs are lent to us for a relatively short time - you would rather have a dog spend 12 miserable years with your family than allow it to have a happy life with someone else? 

It might be that you've never seen a dog unhappy in it's environment, so the concept is alien to you - and if you own just one or two dogs, then it will possibly remain alien.

But when you have several dogs, sometimes, for whatever reason, the 'fit' doesn't work - with the boy it simply wasn't right - with the girl, the trigger - for whatever reason was her litter - believe me, I've beaten myself up more times than anyone on here could ever dog over the whole situation and it's seriously made me consider whether I will ever breed again -this girl was my first ever bred and born pup - I adored her with every fibre of my body - but seeing her day after day, night after night - so folorn and unhappy - ripped me to pieces far more than now knowing she is basically like a "pig in sh*t" in her new home with one other dog and lots of humans to dance attention on her.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

I have to admit to being amazed at the judgemental approach many take here - but also the sense spoken by many when attempting to explain that often it's in the best interest of the dog to go to a new home. Some have criticised the £50 charged - for me that's a sensible sum. I have reservations over 'free to good home' and believe a small sum works better - people often appreciate more something they've paid for. Usually with reputable breeders dogs are 'sold' if it's in the dogs best interest and 'keeping something to the bitter end' is rarely in the dogs interest. It's much better for reputable breeders to rehome than for the dog to be miserable - it doesn't take a place that could be taken by a rescue dog and encouraging responsible breeders is better than discouraging them and allowing more disreputable breeders to carry out their cruel trade. We need to be finding ways of stopping puppy farms and discouraging commercial breeders. Both of these usually 'dispose' of their dogs when they're no longer of use. Reputable breeders 'rehome' to vetted and responsible homes if it's in the dogs interest... dogs who have formed a strong bond with the person will not be rehomed - it's those who are happy to leave who may, if a suitable home appears, be rehomed. No need to be critical of those who take difficult decisions in the dogs interest.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think what is possibly misunderstood, is that if/when it happens by someone like you Swarthy, first off, you're not usually looking to rehome a dog, it just so happens someone comes along and you get a niggling feeling that actually, they may be able to do better for your dog that you can. Secondly, it isn't every dog that someone will necessarily rehome, it just happens to be the one that doesn't do crowds, doesn't like all the activities going on and around it, and perhaps shows signs that it would do better in a one to one situation; and you never know when you buy a dog, or breed a litter, what changes might happen, and how you will be left feeling about them. 

Out of my girls, Tau and Rhuna are very much glued to me, particularly Tau, who would be my siamese twin I'm sure if it were possible! Rhuna doesn't like being without me, even coming and lying at my feet in the *dog room* in preference of a spot in front of the Yorkshire range. Indie on the other hand, she is a real peoples' dog, and would thrive in any good home, but (before anyone pm's me) she's staying put, as far as I can gauge, she has a good home here with me, so I wouldn't change anything. I can only imagine what a heart rending and difficult decision it is, to know a dog you have grown close to, would do better with someone else. 

Having brought on young Miggin, to see him go to a home a short distance away where he is absolutely adored, I actually feel proud that I've contributed towards that dog, and towards their happiness in having him. Slightly different as there was always the possibility he wouldn't stay, but it's nothing to do with him being a reject, the OH has been asked several times if he regretted the decision, and no he doesn't, Miggin is in the right home for him, and that is what matters.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Rehoming it thoughtlessly or abandoning it is a crime - rehoming it with thought and consideration however long it might take is responsible and certainly in my situation, absolutely nothing to do with their capacity to show / breed or serve any other function.


This is what I believe. Over many years of multiple dog ownership I have rehomed one dog who I felt had a great deal to offer to a family home and was not best served living on a farm and being one of 4 dogs. I too turned away many enquiries but one home clicked and was perfect and we kept in touch and saw her sometimes. 
Some dogs, particularly collies, which is what I had before poodles, are just not suited to any non working home and I really think that if you have a dog that has behaviour problems which are making life miserable for both dog and owner then the responsible and caring thing is to have the dog pts. The dog doesnt know about it and it is better than rehoming to an unsuitable home that will have exactly the same problems and discard the dog.

I know that last bit is off topic but I think that most people on here are pet owners first and foremost even if they have had the odd litter and therefore cannot get their head round a bitch that is bred from being considered a working dog rather than a pet - and being better off in a new home inspite of being much loved and happy in her role of breeding/showing.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

swarthy said:


> OK - let's turn that on it's head - dogs are lent to us for a relatively short time - you would rather have a dog spend 12 miserable years with your family than allow it to have a happy life with someone else?
> 
> It might be that you've never seen a dog unhappy in it's environment, so the concept is alien to you - and if you own just one or two dogs, then it will possibly remain alien.
> 
> But when you have several dogs, sometimes, for whatever reason, the 'fit' doesn't work - with the boy it simply wasn't right - with the girl, the trigger - for whatever reason was her litter - believe me, I've beaten myself up more times than anyone on here could ever dog over the whole situation and it's seriously made me consider whether I will ever breed again -this girl was my first ever bred and born pup - I adored her with every fibre of my body - but seeing her day after day, night after night - so folorn and unhappy - ripped me to pieces far more than now knowing she is basically like a "pig in sh*t" in her new home with one other dog and lots of humans to dance attention on her.


i understand if the dog is unhappy and i think that is a different set of circumstances to what i have stated.

many breeders who i have spoken to and read their profiles say that they gave up on a bitch only because they couldn't produce a litter or they never grew the right amount of coat for showing!!! in many instances the dogs loved their life but were useless to them for the show ring or breeding.

this is a different matter then the dog not liking its life with others and being unhappy!

i do not breed dogs so i get a dog to keep in the family, i could not imagine letting alfie move in with someone else because i was less then happy with his length of coat or he wasn't tall enough!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> i understand if the dog is unhappy and i think that is a different set of circumstances to what i have stated.
> 
> many breeders who i have spoken to and read their profiles say that they gave up on a bitch only because they couldn't produce a litter or they never grew the right amount of coat for showing!!! in many instances the dogs loved their life but were useless to them for the show ring or breeding.
> 
> ...


Of course you would not get rid of your pet for that reason. But breeding/showing bitches are not necessarily pets. It does not mean they are not loved and have the best of lives. Why do we have a different mindset over dogs than horses. Much loved and well looked after horses change hands all the time. Very many of them take a good 6 months to settle in a new home and some never really bond whereas most dogs would fit into a new home very quickly - but though a few horse owners stick with the same horse for its life regardless often of whether it is suitable or useful, the majority of horses change hands many times in a lifetime and there is no criticism.
And certainly, once a broodmare is finished with she is usually disposed of in one way or another.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Of course you would not get rid of your pet for that reason. But breeding/showing bitches are not necessarily pets. It does not mean they are not loved and have the best of lives. Why do we have a different mindset over dogs than horses. Much loved and well looked after horses change hands all the time. Very many of them take a good 6 months to settle in a new home and some never really bond whereas most dogs would fit into a new home very quickly - but though a few horse owners stick with the same horse for its life regardless often of whether it is suitable or useful, the majority of horses change hands many times in a lifetime and there is no criticism.
> And certainly, once a broodmare is finished with she is usually disposed of in one way or another.


i understand what you are saying, i just find that the breeder wants to be assured you are going to love the dog for the rest of its life, and rightly so, but they do not hold themselves up to this in giving away a dog who has not met standards.

i do not mean to offend anyone though as this is just my opinion and everyone always has a different opinion to the next person.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I find this rather sad and cruel to some degree the bitch provides the breeder with many wins in the ring, produces a litter or more, then she is re homed as far as i can see because she is no longer of use to the breeder. The bitch has lived as a show/pet dog in that home for the time the breeder has had her, I feel that these bitches deserve to stay with the breeder if they cant breed any more then so be it I believe you take a pet one you keep it for life not for what you can get out of it. 

I agree with the re homing of dogs who are TRULY unhappy in their home. This to me is for the dogs welfare i had always said if I had bred Tilly and we kept her daughter that if Tilly grew up to hate her daughter I would re home the daughter. as I'd owe it to Tilly more I would have chosent to breed her and so their for I made her un happy in her own home.

ETA :: This is just my opinion its something that i feel strongly about, I could never do it.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> I find this rather sad and cruel to some degree the bitch provides the breeder with many wins in the ring, produces a litter or more, then she is re homed as far as i can see because she is no longer of use to the breeder. The bitch has lived as a show/pet dog in that home for the time the breeder has had her, I feel that these bitches deserve to stay with the breeder if they cant breed any more then so be it I believe you take a pet one you keep it for life not for what you can get out of it.
> 
> I agree with the re homing of dogs who are TRULY unhappy in their home. This to me is for the dogs welfare i had always said if I had bred Tilly and we kept her daughter that if Tilly grew up to hate her daughter I would re home the daughter. as I'd owe it to Tilly more I would have chosent to breed her and so their for I made her un happy in her own home.


Agree entirely.

I'm NOT talking about dogs that are not happy were they are, nor dogs that have to be rehomed due to changes in personal circumstances etc nor dogs trained specifically to sell on. I am not anti rehoming if it is right for the dog/done well. I'm talking about dogs that have been part of someone's life, are happy where they are, given their owners a few litters of pups and are then rehomed when their breeding life is over. I just can't get my head round it, and probably never will do tbh, that's all.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

agnes2003 said:


> Agree entirely.
> 
> I'm NOT talking about dogs that are not happy were they are, nor dogs that have to be rehomed due to changes in personal circumstances etc nor dogs trained specifically to sell on. I am not anti rehoming if it is right for the dog/done well. I'm talking about dogs that have been part of someone's life, are happy where they are, given their owners a few litters of pups and are then rehomed when their breeding life is over. I just can't get my head round it, and probably never will do tbh, that's all.


yes, just how i feel.

alfies mum had 3 litters, lived with the breeder happily the whole time then i have now found out was re homed after alfies litter have all got homes.

she also suffered masititis with the last litter, and its like the breeder said, oh well no use to me now, i need new puppies as i have imited room and gave her to someone else, even though she had been happy where she was!

i could never do that.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> yes, just how i feel.
> 
> alfies mum had 3 litters, lived with the breeder happily the whole time then i have now found out was re homed after alfies litter have all got homes.
> 
> ...


 That is sad- just seen as a breeding commodity and nothing more


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> That is sad- just seen as a breeding commodity and nothing more


yes, i think its a good home but i have seen many breeders give up older bitches and ones who cant have litters and i dont really get it.

i had to say i will always keep alfie, which i will but they dont!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

> I feel that these bitches deserve to stay with the breeder if they cant breed any more then so be it I believe you take a pet one you keep it for life not for what you can get out of it.


but then here you are often keeping a dog because of others passing judgement, you are putting your reputation first - when actually what should always come first is whats best for the dogs.

- some breeders will send their top winning dogs abroad to help new lines, and this infact helps the breed overall. If your dog can have no more success over here, whats wrong with letting friends, and newbie breeders abroad also share the success of such a dog?

Its mostly top kennels that rehome dogs no longer breeding/showing from - not your avarge hobby breeder, breeding for their next show dog - so dogs no longer shown on from are only left behind to be cared for by 'staff' while these breeders travel the world showing their dogs.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i don't have a problem with someone rehoming ex show or breeding dogs.i've always been of the opinion a dog is better on a sofa and getting loads of tlc than stuck in a kennel in old age. That said mine are all here and spayed!


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Rehoming an ex breeding bitch because you feel she is better off is ok as long as it is genuinely in her best interests and homes have been carefully vetted. After all sometimes things do not sadly work out.

Not happy if a breeder has made this assessment that the bitch is not happy in their home etc..... but still continues to breed her.

I personally do not like the large commercials ( excluding dogs bred for service/working) whom have loads of breeding bitches and routinely pass on their dogs and get in new stock. It almost soon as they have had last litter off they go and new one comes in to take their place. 

I really think that licensed breeders who do not keep their dogs on as pets especially those bred for the pet market should be limited to how many breeding dogs they have. Is it really necessary to have 10, 15 or 20+ dogs to breed from? IMO no it is not- that's just plain GREED.

Just because there may be a demand does not mean they should have loads of dogs and be churning out puppies left right and centre.

There is a thing called restraint and morals................


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> yes, just how i feel.
> 
> alfies mum had 3 litters, lived with the breeder happily the whole time then i have now found out was re homed after alfies litter have all got homes.
> 
> ...


The difference is - I AM a breeder - but all my dogs are of use to me in their primary function - PETS - I'm dog mad and always have been - if I could get away with having more, I probably would 

BUT - I am always conscious of each individual dog - and when you have a houseful sometimes you cannot give a dog the level of attention they need - some dogs are so laid back (certainly many Labs are) - they take everything thrown at them in their stride, and then you get the ones that are 'different'.

My original foundation bitch is one of those - she's 6 now and still a horror bag - when I work away - she never leaves my chair and glues to me in a way none of my others do (although the baby, whilst not a horror bag is showing signs of being the same way). She is 6 now, and STILL the first to wake up - even when I have a litter on the ground  She rules the roost in every single way and many a time my OH has said to me how much more peaceful our lives would be if she wasn't there - but truth is - we ADORE her with every fibre of our bodies - I cry even at the thought of the day she won't be with us - but she runs me damned ragged - from our perspective life would be much more straighforward if she wasn't there - but I couldn't do it - not just because I love her so much - but because she has just three things in her life that matter, herself, food and me - which takes top priority depends on what she can get away with 

In contrast, the bitch I rehomed was quiet, subdued, yet demanding in a silent sad from the "back of a room" type personality - and it was painfully heartbreaking to watch.

I don't charge for my dogs when I rehome them - but then I don't advertise them either - both people come to me by word of mouth (and were the last in a long line of others who had done the same) - instinctively, I seem to know when something might just work - with the proviso that they come straight back to me if it doesn't.

I didn't take either decision lightly, but I also know they were the right decisions for those dogs, and if I felt the same again, then I would do the same again.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Apart from two I bought as pups all the bitches I have had over 40 years of rescuing have been breeding bitches. A lot of them from the same breeder who is a crufts judge. He not only breeds beagles but hungarian vizlas and spaniels. All the animals are kept in kennels so dont suppose theres any sentiment in it. They have a litter of spaniels at the mo, they are four months old and inoculated but nobody wants them. I was recently offered a six week old beagle dog free of charge as it had an undershot jaw. 
All my dogs are now neutered.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

dexter said:


> i don't have a problem with someone rehoming ex show or breeding dogs.i've always been of the opinion a dog is better on a sofa and getting loads of tlc than stuck in a kennel in old age. That said mine are all here and spayed!


yes, it is nicer for the dogs to have a bit of tlc sometimes!! especially collies who love the sofas!!!!

i do love the look of your dexter, i have seen him before on the mertrisa website!! very lovely looking!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

foxiesummer said:


> All the animals are kept in kennels so dont suppose theres any sentiment in it.


Knowing a lot of people who have dogs living in kennels, I think that is a very unfair sweeping generalisation.

I am sure that in some instances, that is right - but there are many many more where it isn't - and often the dogs spend a lot of time in with the families, they just happen to live in kennels - I know many of these dogs and their owners, and the mutual adoration is as obvious as if you had been smacked in the face with a wet fish - in fact - I've often seen stronger bonds with such dogs who are possibly also better disciplined than dogs that live in the home.

Often, I don't think it's a case of "no sentiment" - but an arrangement that works for them - believe me, if a dog is unhappy living in a kennel, you couldn't do it (unless you really do live in the middle of nowhere) as they make their feelings well and truly unknown.

I have outside kennels for emergencies and for use when I have pups / seasons etc - and although all my dogs live in, one of my girls is MUCH happier being outside - but doesn't like being confined - we give her open access to the kennels - in cold damp weather she would rather sleep under the trees, in the nice weather she likes to sleep on the doorstep - bring her in the house and within seconds, tired or not during the day she is bouncing off the walls - she's happy, she's loved and it's what SHE wants - certainly not what we've forced on her - she would be just as welcome chilling out on my sofa's with the rest of the gang.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

swarthy said:


> The difference is - I AM a breeder - but all my dogs are of use to me in their primary function - PETS - I'm dog mad and always have been - if I could get away with having more, I probably would
> 
> BUT - I am always conscious of each individual dog - and when you have a houseful sometimes you cannot give a dog the level of attention they need - some dogs are so laid back (certainly many Labs are) - they take everything thrown at them in their stride, and then you get the ones that are 'different'.
> 
> ...


 Your rehoming had been done with lots of thought and due regard for your bitches long term welfare. Rehomed because she was subdued and unhappy and you knew people who could offer her more and quietly went about your business to rehome her.

I think we are more on about the ones that get re-homed because they are at the end of their breeding life or have "failed" to produce the right litter and the breeder sees them as "no use" and can't be bothered to keep them on just as pets. Or worse still clogs up the rescues with them.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Your rehoming had been done with lots of thought and due regard for your bitches long term welfare. Rehomed because she was subdued and unhappy and you knew people who could offer her more and quietly went about your business to rehome her.
> 
> I think we are more on about the ones that get re-homed because they are at the end of their breeding life or have "failed" to produce the right litter and the breeder sees them as "no use" and can't be bothered to keep them on just as pets. Or worse still clogs up the rescues with them.


To put an ex breeding bitch into rescue is disgusting in my eyes. If it is not easily rehomeable by the breeder then either keep or pts. But I really do not see anything wrong in finding the RIGHT home if, for whatever reason, the breeder no longer wants the bitch.


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## Barkie (Aug 22, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> I don't like it, unless there are exceptional circumstances i.e. all dogs going, can't look after her any more etc.
> 
> Personally, to me it indicates the dog was nothing but a breeder in the first place.


Sorry, you are saying "nothing but a breeder". The entire dog world from food manufacturers to charity fundraising companion dog shows, the schedule printers, calendar producers, collar and lead makers, clothing makers and sellers, toy makers, etc etc etc would all be out of business without breeders. Vets, insurers and dog health specialists and pet trainers would all lose substantial business without breeders.

Good breeders keep the gene pool healthy whilst breeding out health defects that mar dogs lives and make ownership less than a joy and we can choose to buy from good breeders to get the benefit from having healthier nice tempered dogs that can enjoy for longer.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Your rehoming had been done with lots of thought and due regard for your bitches long term welfare. Rehomed because she was subdued and unhappy and you knew people who could offer her more and quietly went about your business to rehome her.
> 
> I think we are more on about the ones that get re-homed because they are at the end of their breeding life or have "failed" to produce the right litter and the breeder sees them as "no use" and can't be bothered to keep them on just as pets. Or worse still clogs up the rescues with them.


I think though because I do breed the occasional litter, I do feel myself as 'pigeon-holed'  (I would add that is a personal thing rather than anything that has been said on here).

I do hear where people are coming from - but TBH - most of the breeders I know keep their bitches or rehome them lovingly through word of mouth.

The other thing I would say is that quite often, people may have stayed with a breeder for many years when wanting a new pup - but as people get older, their requirements and capabilities change - therefore there may come a point when taking on another puppy is not practical for whatever reason.

A lot of these people feel however that they could give a loving home to an older dog, and logically, where better to start than the breeder who has given you a lifetime of love and happiness from the pups you've owned over the years? This is how my girl's new owners found me - the breeder was contacted by another breeder who couldn't help - and they directed her to me - it just felt so right - the people felt right - everything about it was right - and I know from the frequent feedback I get, it WAS right (so why the hell do I still feel guilty )


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Blitz said:


> T*o put an ex breeding bitch into rescue is disgusting in my eyes. * If it is not easily rehomeable by the breeder then either keep or pts. But I really do not see anything wrong in finding the RIGHT home if, for whatever reason, the breeder no longer wants the bitch.


 Take a look at Many Tears for example and the amount of ex breeding bitches they take on and they are all mainly from PF's.

They have a hard time then trying to find suitable families as the dogs are used to being with other dogs and haven't been house trained or socialised or nothing. They are often terrified bless them .When you see the souless eyes, tails between their legs and their teats almost dragging on the floor in those pictures well it's heart breaking........


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I think though because I do breed the occasional litter, I do feel myself as 'pigeon-holed'  (I would add that is a personal thing rather than anything that has been said on here).
> 
> I do hear where people are coming from - but TBH - most of the breeders I know keep their bitches or rehome them lovingly through word of mouth.
> 
> ...


I can understand a breeder rehoming like you have said and I can accept in some instances a re-home of an ex-breeding bitch. It's the breeders who do this over and over or on a large scale I don't like


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Take a look at Many Tears for example and the amount of ex breeding bitches they take on and they are all mainly from PF's.
> 
> They have a hard time then trying to find suitable families as the dogs are used to being with other dogs and haven't been house trained or socialised or nothing. They are often terrified bless them .When you see the souless eyes, tails between their legs and their teats almost dragging on the floor in those pictures well it's heart breaking........


Yes, it is heartbreaking. Those bitches should never have been bred from or kept in such conditions. But it does happen and I do not feel it is always right to 'rescue' the bitches and encourage the puppy farmers. Even if those bitches were taken out in a field and shot it might be kinder than subjecting them to the terror they go through - and surely there are very limited new homes for them.
It is a lovely easy option for the puppy farmers to sell or give their bitches to a rescue and pass the problem on. If there was not that option they would have to think more carefully what they were going to do.
And of course if they were inspected and made to keep the bitches in a better way then they would be able to sell or rehome them themselves direct from their kennels.

How come my daughter got in trouble yesterday for 'allowing' a pigeon to get caught up on her roof yet it is ok for these dogs to be kept in this awful way!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Hmm, yet another subject that is not black and white. 

Myself, I have never re-homed any of my 'keepers'.

Cleo - our first show. brood bitch of my own (not connected to my parents) did okay as a show dog, got her Stud Book Number but was never gonna be a big winner at all. Turned out to be a 'textbook' brood bitch, absolutely perfect in every way when it comes to pups. Is one of the 'special' dogs that has stoeln a pieve of my heart and I will never part with her, even though reached the end of her breeding time a while ago and now only to be lightly shown in select shows in Veteran, not coz she may win, but simply because I am proud she has reached tha age of 9, when so many Rotties die far too young.

Darla - never a show potential, never for brood, kept coz she was a survivor and she stole a piece of my OH's heart. Would never be considered for re-home, she turns 7 in January.

Maddie - we had high hopes for Maddie, did cracking stuff as a pup in the ring, lovely specimen of the breed. did her cruciate and had the op, recovered, just got her back out and she had an accident with Blue's head and started with eye probs. Was operated on for mild secondary entropian, Vet said (and we sought several opinions) he was sure the entropian was true secondary, but would only give 99% as a surety, because of the 1% unsurety, we decided to pull her from the shows and our breeding program and had her spayed, after much deliberation and discussion with other rottie folk and I will say I shed many a tear over this, as I so wanted a pup from Maddie, she is my girl and another that is 'special' to me, she is my absolute shadow. It was my dream to mate her to Blue and I still often sit and wonder what we might have got. Never once did we consider re-homing her - like Swarthy mentioned about one of her girls, Maddie is one who would pine away and die without me, I fear.

Blue - Blue was a much awaited Import for show and breeding. He turned out way too tall, lol, and has other faults too, so we cant really show him and he's only been to stud once, to Cleo, a last shot at getting a 2nd generation for our lines from Cleo. He is a much-loved family member and a proper 'fireside' dog. We would never re-home him either.

I do believe in a dog is for life not just for christmas, but I know more than a few rottie folk who do re-home older pups they have ran on and not turned out for one reason or another etc. These people are good people, who do the best for their dogs and I know the dogs are mainly re-homed with family members. 

I dont agree with those that breed then sell bitches on on a regular basis, its smacks too much of commercialism to me, although each case must be taken on its own merit too.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

foxiesummer said:


> Apart from two I bought as pups all the bitches I have had over 40 years of rescuing have been breeding bitches. A lot of them from the same breeder who is a crufts judge. He not only breeds beagles but hungarian vizlas and spaniels. All the animals are kept in kennels so dont suppose theres any sentiment in it. They have a litter of spaniels at the mo, they are four months old and inoculated but nobody wants them. I was recently offered a six week old beagle dog free of charge as it had an undershot jaw. All my dogs are now neutered.


I have a friend who had two ex-breeding labrador bitches. They didn't want a puppy and the labs arrived aged around 6 and have been very much loved family pets, it worked really well for them. They were planning a family and they knew these girls loved children as they had lived with them before and it was a great arrangement all round. One has just died peacefully aged 11, and I think they'd do something similar when they're ready for a new dog. My friend said that the only bad part has been that they knew they wouldn't have as many years together as with a young dog.

I know it's a different species, but I have an ex-breeding cat...I didn't even want a cat but we took her because it broke our hearts to see the way that she was described. She lived outside in a pen (I know tons of people do this and it's not always bad) but these conditions were pretty basic to say the least and didn't have human attention, had terrible dandruff, crusty eyes and dull hair.

She was being "got rid of as she was no use" - their words not mine, as she wasn't a very good mum, and twice produced just one kitten and didn't look after them very well. She is a gorgeous pet kitty. Her breeders do relatively well in the show ring, sell kittens for high prices but their cats and dogs are more like expensive commodities, like cars or something - not pets and I guess this is the difference.

Naomi


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Take a look at Many Tears for example and the amount of ex breeding bitches they take on and they are all mainly from PF's.
> 
> They have a hard time then trying to find suitable families as the dogs are used to being with other dogs and haven't been house trained or socialised or nothing. They are often terrified bless them .When you see the souless eyes, tails between their legs and their teats almost dragging on the floor in those pictures well it's heart breaking........


They are a whole different kettle of fish - and a subject I do have very mixed views on  (not many positives there I'm afraid)

The trick is to STOP these breeders breeding once and for all - TBH - the girls who get rehomed through MT and similar probably experience the first real love they've ever had in their lives - the majority of them have horrible lives with their breeders and are there simply to serve a business purpose - in truth - the kindest thing these (I am loathe to call them breeders) do for these girls is to rehome them 

IF we educated from the bottom up (which I know you guys are working had at) - this is the only way we are going to stop the overarching situation you describe

It is a major problem for pedigrees and cross-breeds alike owned by these unscrupulous breeders - but that is VERY different to the small scale ethical breeder who sometimes allow their older girls to go to people they know / friends of friends etc - these dogs know what it is to be loved from the minute they are born through to the minute they leave this earth - yes - it might be with different people - but the fundamentals of their life are the same.

Big gap between PF and ethical breeders and that needs to be recognised - (and clearly is by some).


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think it very much depends on the breeder and how they go about rehoming. I don't think a caring breeder would advertise the bitch nor dump them in a rescue, but if a proper pet home came along who they knew really well, then they may let the dog go to that person.

I don't believe in them being advertised, no. But sometimes it can be better for the dog. It is a very difficult one.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

I just couldn't do it. If my dogs are all happy, and I would hope a responsible and good breeder's dogs are too (god willing - obv. their are some unforseen circumstances that not from lack of love or care a dog just isn't), then giving up a loved and happy dog after you're done breeding them, nope I'm sorry I just couldn't. I would be far too emotionally attached and it would break my heart tbh. But then many have different aspirations to me, I understand that, and that no doubt does play a part.

Thank you all for commenting further on a thread that was long buried, it's been great reading about all your different experiences and hearing everyone's opinons on this.

I am not going to judge anyone, just leave it as my thoughts above, and they are more sentimental than anything constructive I know ;-)


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> but then here you are often keeping a dog because of others passing judgement, you are putting your reputation first - when actually what should always come first is whats best for the dogs.
> 
> - some breeders will send their top winning dogs abroad to help new lines, and this infact helps the breed overall. If your dog can have no more success over here, whats wrong with letting friends, and newbie breeders abroad also share the success of such a dog?
> 
> Its mostly top kennels that rehome dogs no longer breeding/showing from - not your avarge hobby breeder, breeding for their next show dog - so dogs no longer shown on from are only left behind to be cared for by 'staff' while these breeders travel the world showing their dogs.


It still dosent sit right with me, if the dog stops winning over here then it should retire and be a pet with you. if they want your dogs lines surely they can travel to you and mate from it or the last time the breeder bred the bitch send a pup from her over. sorry Its something I cant and wont ever understand. I have strong views on the fact that if you get an animal then keep it until the end. Its like me with Tilly, we planned on breeding her but sadly she isnt good enough so will be spayed and a much loved pet that she is, even if i showed dogs I would never of dreamt re homing Tilly because she didnt breed for me.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> It still dosent sit right with me, if the dog stops winning over here then it should retire and be a pet with you. if they want your dogs lines surely they can travel to you and mate from it or the last time the breeder bred the bitch send a pup from her over. sorry Its something I cant and wont ever understand. I have strong views on the fact that if you get an animal then keep it until the end. Its like me with Tilly, we planned on breeding her but sadly she isnt good enough so will be spayed and a much loved pet that she is, even if i showed dogs I would never of dreamt re homing Tilly because she didnt breed for me.


You are completely missing the point, and it shows a lack of understanding what is needed for gene pools and the future of dog breeding.

Many (often pet) people don't want to see tight line-breeding, but then don't like to see influential dogs who can offer something to overseas gene pools travel and influence breeds in other countries.

These travelling dogs often result in an overseas dog of similar influence coming to our shores.

To add to that - dogs travelling all over borders here, there and everywhere to use a stud dog - mmmm - so much for carbon footprints 

Shall we just become a nation of AI and break the KC down until dogs can no longer breed naturally? They have already relaxed their rules beyond most people's expectations - but there are limitations.

There are a number of VERY separate issues here - and good breeders will ALWAYS do what is in the best interests of the dog - I would pray that all of those who so scathingly knock others who do / would rehome never find themselves in a position where they are immune to the dogs needs above their own because that is much worse 

People continue to put human emotions on dogs, the large majority of dogs really couldn't give a c$$p where they live or who feeds them providing they have warmth, love and food -

Try it if you don't believe me - because in virtually every case, the dog wouldn't even realise you are not there - that can be hard to stomach for some people - but it is a fact; they are not human and don't have the same emotions as those humans frequently try to believe and convey in view of their inability to convey this message.

If someone is sending their prized champion overseas - does anyone think that is done on a whim? I think very much not, it will be done with HUGE forethought and insight and built on friendships that have developed over many years.

It is unusual (but not unheard of) for bitches to go overseas - it's usually dogs, where they can have a greater influence on gene pools.

It is these actions which provide the pet people who cringe at the same name on pedigrees the diversification of gene pools - talk about wanting to have cake and eat it - but being able to stomach the (NOT CRUEL) actions taken to get there


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Great post Swarthy, cut to the bone of contention, I know for a fact, Indie would *bond* with anyone, much to my dismay, because I absolutely adore her, she's a one in a million, but she certainly is a character in her own right, and not reliant on me other than for basic necessities.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

swarthy said:


> You are completely missing the point, and it shows a lack of understanding what is needed for gene pools and the future of dog breeding.
> 
> Many (often pet) people don't want to see tight line-breeding, but then don't like to see influential dogs who can offer something to overseas gene pools travel and influence breeds in other countries.
> 
> ...


We will have to agree to disagree everyone has an opinion and for your information I do understand gene pools. I may not breed dogs but do understand breeding animals. In my opinion it is cruel too please dont try and belittle me.


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## Papsrme (Jan 5, 2011)

swarthy said:


> You are completely missing the point, and it shows a lack of understanding what is needed for gene pools and the future of dog breeding.
> 
> Many (often pet) people don't want to see tight line-breeding, but then don't like to see influential dogs who can offer something to overseas gene pools travel and influence breeds in other countries.
> 
> ...


As idyllic as your reply may sound in theory it is not always the case in practise. I know many breeders who ,once their breeding bitch becomes surplus to requirements, rehomes in order to make space for future money earners and rosette winners. This is my experience and appears to be common practise in the dog world. Not something i would be party too. A dog or pet of any kind is for life and not until its human thinks it has expired its usefulness. Animals breed naturally in the wild!! Not in captivity. And as for dragging dogs country wide to gain rosettes so that they,the owners, can increase the price of the next litter is abhorrent and inexcusable. i am a pet owner and very proud that my dogs have a loving home for life and wont be increasing anyones carbon footprint by trolling the country for the next rosette.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> It still dosent sit right with me, if the dog stops winning over here then it should retire and be a pet with you. if they want your dogs lines surely they can travel to you and mate from it or the last time the breeder bred the bitch send a pup from her over. sorry Its something I cant and wont ever understand. I have strong views on the fact that if you get an animal then keep it until the end. Its like me with Tilly, we planned on breeding her but sadly she isnt good enough so will be spayed and a much loved pet that she is, even if i showed dogs I would never of dreamt re homing Tilly because she didnt breed for me.


Top show dog breeders who keep their dogs in the house with them might well agree with you. However, a lot of them don't and although they are very well cared for, they do not have the human contact which a pet dog would have. Though I cannot agree with Swarthy's view that dogs don't care who they are with as long as they are cared for, when it comes to these show dogs raised in a kennel environment, they probably don't. Pet dogs or dogs kept with the family are a different matter altogether.

I was kindly given my little Diva by one of these top show dog breeders. She is a champion dog, but as fate would have it, could not be bred from. They wanted her to have a proper pet home, but they would never have advertised her or stuck her in a rescue. She had a home for life with them, but not the sort of home they wanted for her. She got in my car the very first time, had a 40 minute journey home, and never murmured about it. If you had tried to do that Ferdie or Joshua it would have been a different story, especially Ferdie. He won't even go for a walk without me. I left him overnight once, when my grandaughter stayed to look after them, and he didn't eat a thing till I returned.

It is not how I would be, but then I wouldn't breed in the first place and I have no interest in showing. I am strictly a pet dog person. But people who breed show dogs like this do not get quite as attached as we do, nor do the dogs get quite so attached to them. As long as they know the dog is going to a really good home with a really good person, and they are not just trying to get rid, I see no problem.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> We will have to agree to disagree everyone has an opinion and for your information I do understand gene pools. I may not breed dogs but do understand breeding animals. In my opinion it is cruel too please dont try and belittle me.


I am not trying to belittle you - I said it as I see it.

Tell me EXACTLY what is cruel about giving a dog a better life?  this is what WE are talking about - not PF who dump their dogs when they can no longer reproduce.

Just like you, I have a number of dogs that can't / won't be bred from.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Great post Swarthy, cut to the bone of contention, I know for a fact, Indie would *bond* with anyone, much to my dismay, because I absolutely adore her, she's a one in a million, but she certainly is a character in her own right, and not reliant on me other than for basic necessities.


You do undoubtedly get some breeds who, for want of a better word, have a single master and would undoubtedly struggle to cope with a new environment - but with the right love and attention, even these dogs would adapt if necessary.

Labs are not really one of those breeds - although there are exceptions, and I suspect I have one of those in Clover (who will wrap herself around my legs rather than let someone take her from me ).

In the main, the majority of dogs will go with whoever will care for them and really don't struggle with the same human emotions that their owners would like to believe - it can be a hard pill to stomach for some 

This stretches even further to include other animals - both mine went to families where they had lost their oldest member, and the remaining older dog was grieving - within hours - the incoming dog has, in both instances, been 'gifted' the role of the bereaved dog, proving that this includes other resident animals as well as humans.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Papsrme said:


> As idyllic as your reply may sound in theory it is not always the case in practise. I know many breeders who ,once their breeding bitch becomes surplus to requirements, rehomes in order to make space for future money earners and rosette winners. This is my experience and appears to be common practise in the dog world. Not something i would be party too. A dog or pet of any kind is for life and not until its human thinks it has expired its usefulness. Animals breed naturally in the wild!! Not in captivity. And as for dragging dogs country wide to gain rosettes so that they,the owners, can increase the price of the next litter is abhorrent and inexcusable. i am a pet owner and very proud that my dogs have a loving home for life and wont be increasing anyones carbon footprint by trolling the country for the next rosette.


I didn't say it was always the case, I am all too aware of many of the practices that go on - I live in the heart of PF land and see the results on a daily basis 

Money earners :lol: - Unless a CH show is literally on your doorstep - a typical CH show costs in the region of £200 upwards - some often more than £500 a time, with easily 2 or 3 a week over the summer months, the money very very rarely comes from the dogs :lol:

Theres no prize money in showing - even Crufts is what? a Paltry £100 - anyone who thinks people who are breeding ethically and showing for the money really has no idea of the showing world 

My own dogs are pets first and foremost - if they are happy, they stay, irrespective of whether they can be bred from or shown (out of 6, two are shown regularly - one MIGHT be bred from) - if they are clearly unhappy - and IF the right home comes along, I may let them go - FREE.

I openly admit I ruined my own bitch by taking a litter from her - we hear about the risks of litters - this was one NONE of the books talked about - but has made me rethink very seirously about my plans for the future  and why my remaining health-tested bitch is now well past three and not yet had a litter and biologically, running out of time - but whether she does, or doesn't - she will be here with me for life.

Whilst there will be some exceptions, money predominantly comes from working or other sources - not from the dogs - I could be debt free and holidaying in the caribbean a couple of times a year if I didn't have my gang - but my life wouldn't be as rich without them.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I dont believe dogs do not care who they are with but I have a lot of experience of dogs changing their allegiance over about 24 hours  When I ran a small boarding kennels years ago it never bothered me if an owner said they did not know how their dog would cope without them. The more one man dog type of dog it was the easier it was to manage. The one man dog type who is glued to their owner cannot bear not to have their own person. They mope for 24 hours then they totally give their allegiance to the new person who is looking after them. Highly embarrassing when the owner comes for their dog and it is glued to my side and not at all sure it wants to leave me.
Oddly, it is the happy go lucky dog that tends to mope more in kennels and be the problem though it would probably fairly easily go into a new home.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I dont believe dogs do not care who they are with but I have a lot of experience of dogs changing their allegiance over about 24 hours  When I ran a small boarding kennels years ago it never bothered me if an owner said they did not know how their dog would cope without them. The more one man dog type of dog it was the easier it was to manage. The one man dog type who is glued to their owner cannot bear not to have their own person. They mope for 24 hours then they totally give their allegiance to the new person who is looking after them. Highly embarrassing when the owner comes for their dog and it is glued to my side and not at all sure it wants to leave me.
> Oddly, it is the happy go lucky dog that tends to mope more in kennels and be the problem though it would probably fairly easily go into a new home.


You don't believe dogs don't care - but then have just proved how quickly they will switch to someone who meets their basic needs and gives them love 

Loved dogs do care about their owners - of course they do - but not to the level that some seem to think they do, and the majority will adapt quickly and easily to a new environment. As above, there are breeds and individual dogs who will be the exception to the rule, but predominantly, with dogs, it is out of sight, out of mind.

Leave a dog in an environment and take a familiar human face away and a dog will struggle, place that dog into a new environment without that same person and more often than not it will thrive.

I too worked in boarding kennels for many years, and during that time, I can recall just one dog who 'grieved' and refused to eat until it's owners returned for him - licensed for 64 boarders and working there 52 weeks a year over so many years, we saw a LOT of different dogs - removed from their normal routines, living environments, the amount of attention many were used to getting and they still thrived.

I know how hard it is from personal experience to stomach it - I am still grieving for my lovely girl - but I know she's not grieving for me - whilst that hurts in one way - it makes me happy in another as I let her go so she would be happier, and she is. I had a very select criteria - not a single dog home, but not one with many dogs - older people but still active and lots of space to do what she loved best - running.

She also has the added advantage that immediate close family have a further 6 dogs between them - so she even gets chance to do the occasional loon which she enjoys on an occasional basis.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

> It still dosent sit right with me, if the dog stops winning over here then it should retire and be a pet with you. if they want your dogs lines surely they can travel to you and mate from it or the last time the breeder bred the bitch send a pup from her over. sorry Its something I cant and wont ever understand. I have strong views on the fact that if you get an animal then keep it until the end. Its like me with Tilly, we planned on breeding her but sadly she isnt good enough so will be spayed and a much loved pet that she is, even if i showed dogs I would never of dreamt re homing Tilly because she didnt breed for me.


But then where do you end, dont rehome puppies you have bred, puppies you have run on (brought in or bred by yourself!) - wast some of your dogs taken on from a breeder over the avarge age of leaving the litter? Here I am not having a dig, simply making a point.

I think it would be VERY hard for me to make the choice to rehome a dog, bred from it or not!

- I have two males and two females, I know for a fact that if I bred Karma and later on down the line she started becoming aggressive towards any of my other dogs, I would work damn hard to keep ALL living in a peaceful home if that failed I would have to rehome the trouble causer, regardless of folk passing judgement because she had previously had a litter, because rehoming her would be in the best interest for all.

People seem to think that breeders would just pass dogs on for the sake of it, no I dont think thats the case!

A deadicated breeder, that shows and produces winning dogs will clearly have a high reputation and their dogs will be sought after. Its not about a dog stop winning, but about the dog being at the TOP cant get any higher so why shouldnt that dog then continue the success in the US or somewhere else. - Producing puppies that are going to help the overall breed, and other passionate breeders - in alot of cases these dogs are sent out on contracts and the dogs will be returned, maybe a year later. - You could say the dog is being loaned out in the same way a horse often is.

It doesnt have to sit right with you, I am not saying its something I could or would do. But I do happen to understand, and to some degree respect breeders that can lend dogs out or rehome them for the dogs or breeds best interest, I dont think its always an easy task! ( Dont get me wrong I am not naive to think that some folk cant wait to move out some older dogs, to bring in new - these are not the type of folk I am defending! ).

I do feel that dogs become attached to their owners, of course their is a bond. I mean this person walks, feeds and loves the dog - we cant put human emotions on dogs and say that a dog wouldnt feel the same love for another owner giving the dog all that it needs. Dogs are great animals and dont ask for alot, food, water, shelter and some love. - You give them that and their your soul mates - which in one respect is the very reason I couldnt pass a dog on without knowing my feelings dont count and its always down to what my dogs need.

**Just read Swarthy post, really I didnt need to respond! **


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

Myfynwy said:


> What does every one think of this practise?
> 
> My instinctual ignorance says that it shows a lack of care for each dog, instead seeing them as breeding machines - and presumably there are some unethical (ie byb) for whom this is the case.
> 
> However, if someone really is breeding for the breeds improvement, considering how long dogs live, that to make a real difference without spending 20 years at it, you would need to breed more often, from more dogs, than you may feel you can comfortable look after.


It doesn't sit right with me either, my view is that dogs are a commitment for life regardless of whether they are pets or used for breeding. If a breeder was willing to discard a dog once it had served its breeding purpose then it says more than enough about their care for the individual to me. It's all very well thinking about the breed as a whole but the dogs in the here and now are equally important. I think they are anyway. As an aside, I can't get my head around not getting attached to dogs that live with you.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

one of my dogs where rehomed from a breeder yes one, and he was 9 month old and male. not a bitch so hardly any argument. We are talking about breeding bitches. I just wanted to correct that.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I know the threads about bitches, but rehoming a dog used at stud to me really is no difference! - Or do folk find it acceptable to send stud dogs to new homes abroad to widen the gene pool - just not females


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I know the threads about bitches, but rehoming a dog used at stud to me really is no difference!


well thats ok because he wasnt, he was what you would class as ran on by the breeder.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

so whats the difference to rehoming a pup that isnt what you want, then rehoming a dog that is 'no long' what you need! Generally interested here! - Is it the fact of age, the fact that the dog has given birth?


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I know the threads about bitches, but rehoming a dog used at stud to me really is no difference! - Or do folk find it acceptable to send stud dogs to new homes abroad to widen the gene pool - just not females


I find it unacceptable for both really but do feel more sorry for Bitches I have to be honest as she has gone through pain to deliver puppies and given her owner everything she can.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> so whats the difference to rehoming a pup that isnt what you want, then rehoming a dog that is 'no long' what you need! Generally interested here! - Is it the fact of age, the fact that the dog has given birth?


the fact of age and that she has given birth for me, I mean how can someone have a bitch for 3-4 year build a bond when she has puppies then rehome her, I am not having a go at anyone I just find it so hard to understand. That said I have nothing else to add


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

But a stud dog has done just the same (well actually more than likely produced 10 times more pupsters than any female!) only hasnt given birth to them - so here we have put human emotions on the female, and disagree with it because she 'was in pain given birth'..

I can understand where your coming from, but cant agree - dogs arent humans, we cant put our emotions on them either!! ALSO rehoming a dog because its not what you want any longer is the same in my opinion REGARDLESS of if they have given birth or not!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> But a stud dog has done just the same (well actually more than likely produced 10 times more pupsters than any female!) only hasnt given birth to them - so here we have put human emotions on the female, and disagree with it because she 'was in pain given birth'..
> 
> I can understand where your coming from, but cant agree - dogs arent humans, we cant put our emotions on them either!! ALSO rehoming a dog because its not what you want any longer is the same in my opinion REGARDLESS of if they have given birth or not!


well that is where we will have to agree to disagree Sadly I do put human emotion on my dogs and would be gutted and really upset if anything ever happens to anyone of them.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> well that is where we will have to agree to disagree Sadly I do put human emotion on my dogs and would be gutted and really upset if anything ever happens to anyone of them.


ANY caring owner would be devestated if anything happened to their pets. - Thats not what I mean when I say putting human emotions on our dogs...I mean we cant believe that how we feel about situations is how they would feel. - Because we really will never know.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> so whats the difference to rehoming a pup that isnt what you want, then rehoming a dog that is 'no long' what you need! Generally interested here! - Is it the fact of age, the fact that the dog has given birth?


I have to be honest, I can't think of that many bitches who have gone overseas (my own breed)- those that do particularly well in the ring tend to have pups later anyway, coming back out into the ring inbetween and into veteran, although I am sure there have been some over the years.

Dogs have much more to offer through travelling than bitches through travelling because of their greater effect on the genepool.

I too am confused on why "it is OK to rehome a dog that's been run on" which of course does happen as well (and rehomed as considerately - or in some breeds rehomed to newcomers into the show / working world) - usually - because the dog hasn't reached the level the breeder wants / needs - so that's OK - but letting a girl who has ended her show career and had one or two litters go and live in the bosom of a loving family isn't 

======================

ETA - I sound like I am being harsh with some of my comments about canine emotions - I'm not, I'm being practical based on a lifetime of experience.

I love my dogs more than humans - they are the integral focus of my daily life and if one of them hurts, I hurt too - it tore me apart parting with the two dogs I have let go. but I did so for genuine reasons for THEIR sake, certainly not mine or my bank balance !!!  and it IS hard to know that they have both coped admirably without me


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

swarthy said:


> I have to be honest, I can't think of that many bitches who have gone overseas (my own breed)- those that do particularly well in the ring tend to have pups later anyway, coming back out into the ring inbetween and into veteran, although I am sure there have been some over the years.
> 
> Dogs have much more to offer through travelling than bitches through travelling because of their greater effect on the genepool.
> 
> I too am confused on why "it is OK to rehome a dog that's been run on" which of course does happen as well (and rehomed as considerately - or in some breeds rehomed to newcomers into the show / working world) - usually - because the dog hasn't reached the level the breeder wants / needs - so that's OK - but letting a girl who has ended her show career and had one or two litters go and live in the bosom of a loving family isn't


I feel its ok to run on pups as you never know how they develop so breeders do that to know who is best to keep (in my understanding) aslong as the dog gets rehome youngish Into a secure loving familey home I have no issue its when a dog has lived with a familey for a fair lrngth of time that I dont. I cant explain anymore and i am beinging to feel questioned over my opinion wich I am intitled to


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Depending on the circumstances I really don't see the problem. 

A friend of mine is currently looking to rehome one of his bitches. She's had her litters and she's lived a happy life in an active working kennel. My friend now has time issues with a lot of youngsters coming in, so instead of leaving her in her kennel he wants to rehome her to an active pet or a good working home where she can retire in luxury. There's no question of money; the most important thing is the right home for her.

Surely this is better than lonely languishment after a life of active work? 

Oh, and she was spayed yesterday - he doesn't want her bred from again, obviously.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> I feel its ok to run on pups as you never know how they develop so breeders do that to know who is best to keep (in my understanding) aslong as the dog gets rehome youngish Into a secure loving familey home I have no issue its when a dog has lived with a familey for a fair lrngth of time that I dont. I cant explain anymore and i am beinging to feel questioned over my opinion wich I am intitled to


You are challenging other's views, but we are not allowed to question yours? 

It's a genuine question - it doesn't matter whether a dog is 6 months or 6 years, it will usually adapt and very quickly - humans become far more attached to dogs than dogs become attached to humans.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> I feel its ok to run on pups as you never know how they develop so breeders do that to know who is best to keep (in my understanding)


But regardless as to the reason, the dog is being rehomed because its not what the breeder wants - in the same way an older dog would be rehomed, its no longer what the breeder wants/needs to why not send the dog off to a loving home or serve a great purpose in someone elses breeding programme to help winden the gene pool!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> But regardless as to the reason, the dog is being rehomed because its not what the breeder wants - in the same way an older dog would be rehomed, its no longer what the breeder wants/needs to why not send the dog off to a loving home or serve a great purpose in someone elses breeding programme to help winden the gene pool!


the difference is the older dog has built relationships with the home its in, I know for a fact blaze would never be happy with anyone else Ive tried leaving him with family he panics I am not saying anymore so I wish people would stop harping on. I have asked and if it continues I will report it.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> the difference is the older dog has built relationships with the home its in, I know for a fact blaze would never be happy with anyone else Ive tried leaving him with family he panics I am not saying anymore so I wish people would stop harping on. I have asked and if it continues I will report it.


There is nothing to report, you are apart of a debate - its not going your way as others have a differing of opinion and now your throwing your toys out the pram :skep:

The fact is there is not debate to be had here


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> There is nothing to report, you are apart of a debate - its not going your way as others have a differing of opinion and now your throwing your toys out the pram :skep:
> 
> The fact is there is not debate to be had here


I am not throwing toys out pram at all just saying take it how you like you have your opinion i have mind end of


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## Cinnebar (Nov 8, 2011)

My male dog would break his heart if he was parted from me - he is a real mummy's boy but my 3 bitches aged 6,2 & 1 would happily go with the highest bidder - the one with the biggest bone. I don't doubt that they love me in their own fashion and are happy living with me. But I am not essential to their welfare and they would easily settle with someone else. Not a scrap of loyalty between them LOL


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

I can't sleep ;-)

I focused on bitches that had been bred from and then passed on, because it was the original focus of this thread.

We have touched on not humanising dogs and I do agree with that. It doesn't really have anything to do with my views. You own a dog, you live with them for quite a few years, you form an attachment (an important point), therefore still don't know how people can then pass that dog on. Or perhaps some people don't have quite the same level of attachment as I do to my dogs, and that's not meant as a slur/negative to anyone, just an observation. I don't care you see whether my dog would 'go off with anyone' or not as the case may be. It wouldn't make it any easier for me to rehome them. They may not have attached themselves quite so earnestly to me as I have to them, but believe me I am firmly attached. And I also took a vow, to myself, that a dog is for life and that I would care for it, provide for it and cherish it to the end of it's days.

Again I am NOT anti rehoming if the dog is not happy, being bullied, needs a job to do etc etc etc. But if the dog is and has always been happy, then the only reason/s I can see for moving that dog on is for 'space', money and well, basically our selfish needs and aspirations. If the dog is happy, loved and well cared for then it is not missing out on anything. It will not care therefore that another person or family down the road may have a bigger house, or better interior design skills, or bigger larder even (actually it might on that last point) as it's needs are already being met.

If the dog is not happy and/or you can't for some reason provide it with the love and care it needs etc but frankly if you've had it all those years, are a good responsible owner, and not least raised litters from it then you should already be doing so, then fine move the dog on and to the best possible home, as some thankfully do. 

Of course there will always be sad personal circumstances that means rehoming a dog has to be the outcome but that is a seperate issue entirely (and I pray to God that I am never in that boat but one can never say never sadly).

As for stud dogs, now someone has brought that up and good point, yes personally I feel exactly the same way about them too.

I am well aware that some move bitches and dogs to create space for new ones. Dogs do make some people money and money does have a habit of making people less emotive and more business like. Am also aware that some move on dogs because they have the best interest of that dog in their heart. So I know that 'one size does not fit all', so to speak. 

Yes I know, I am from the self confessed 'dog is for life' brigade. Sorry ;-) BUT it is good to hear and read everyone's opinons and views. I suspect that none of us are right and I'm glad about that, because then we would have no pause for thought.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

I think it depends how you view your dogs - if they are seen as breeding,working or showing 'stock' then re-homing is probably easier - if they are members of the family and as integral to your life as the human members then I truly cannot see how you can hand them on to someone else when they cease to be useful - personally I'd rather cut off my arm than re-home any of my dogs - I know all the arguments about not having enough time to 'do them justice' but quite frankly if that's the case then the solution is simple ... don't get any more new ones !

Lets face it most of the things we do with our dogs are simply hobbies - they're fun, somewhat addictive and in many cases ego boosting but they ARE just hobbies - if your dog does well that's great but if it does'nt it's not the end of the world - I have 6 dogs, two of which could be regarded as 'passengers' in that they don't like showing , won't do agility and are too worried to be therapy dogs ( my three hobbies) - but they enhance my life in so many other ways that I could not imagine life without them .

I also have a bitch who has had her last litter - she's been a wonderful mum but is no longer 'productive' - just the thought of re-homing her makes my blood run cold ...phrases like " re-homing a brood bitch so that she can live a life of luxury as a pet " simply baffle me - why is she not viewed as a 'pet ' with her original owners :confused5:...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bijou said:


> I think it depends how you view your dogs - if they are seen as breeding,working or showing 'stock' then re-homing is probably easier - if they are members of the family and as integral to your life as the human members then I truly cannot see how you can hand them on to someone else when they cease to be useful - personally I'd rather cut off my arm than re-home any of my dogs - I know all the arguments about not having enough time to 'do them justice' but quite frankly if that's the case then the solution is simple ... don't get any more new ones !
> 
> Lets face it most of the things we do with our dogs are simply hobbies - they're fun, somewhat addictive and in many cases ego boosting but they ARE just hobbies - if your dog does well that's great but if it does'nt it's not the end of the world - I have 6 dogs, two of which could be regarded as 'passengers' in that they don't like showing , won't do agility and are too worried to be therapy dogs ( my three hobbies) - but they enhance my life in so many other ways that I could not imagine life without them .
> 
> I also have a bitch who has had her last litter - she's been a wonderful mum but is no longer 'productive' - just the thought of re-homing her makes my blood run cold ...phrases like " re-homing a brood bitch so that she can live a life of luxury as a pet " simply baffle me - why is she not viewed as a 'pet ' with her original owners :confused5:...


I feel just the same as Bijou.

I do know people in the breed who rehome dogs and i know they place them carefully usually with friends within the breed, but its not something i could ever do.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Knowing a lot of people who have dogs living in kennels, I think that is a very unfair sweeping generalisation.
> 
> I am sure that in some instances, that is right - but there are many many more where it isn't - and often the dogs spend a lot of time in with the families, they just happen to live in kennels - I know many of these dogs and their owners, and the mutual adoration is as obvious as if you had been smacked in the face with a wet fish - in fact - I've often seen stronger bonds with such dogs who are possibly also better disciplined than dogs that live in the home.
> 
> ...


Sorrrrry but it wasnt my intention to infer that dogs living outside are anything but loved and cared for.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> well that is where we will have to agree to disagree Sadly I do put human emotion on my dogs and would be gutted and really upset if anything ever happens to anyone of them.


of course you woud be gutted and upset if anything happened to one of your dogs. but the question is would your dogs give a damn if you disappeared from their lives or would they happily carry on with a new owner.



DKDREAM said:


> I feel its ok to run on pups as you never know how they develop so breeders do that to know who is best to keep (in my understanding) aslong as the dog gets rehome youngish Into a secure loving familey home I have no issue its when a dog has lived with a familey for a fair lrngth of time that I dont. I cant explain anymore and i am beinging to feel questioned over my opinion wich I am intitled to


of course you are entitled to your opinion- but I am not sure I really see the difference between rehoming a year old pup or a 4 year old bitch.


DKDREAM said:


> the difference is the older dog has built relationships with the home its in, I know for a fact blaze would never be happy with anyone else Ive tried leaving him with family he panics I am not saying anymore so I wish people would stop harping on. I have asked and if it continues I will report it.


What is there to report - this is an interesting debate with sensible comments on both sides. See what I have said below - Blaze would probably be absolutely fine after a day or so.



Cinnebar said:


> My male dog would break his heart if he was parted from me - he is a real mummy's boy but my 3 bitches aged 6,2 & 1 would happily go with the highest bidder - the one with the biggest bone. I don't doubt that they love me in their own fashion and are happy living with me. But I am not essential to their welfare and they would easily settle with someone else. Not a scrap of loyalty between them LOL


I dont know if you read one of my posts earlier in this thread - but I would say your male dog would be the first to settle in a new home. Because he is a mummy's boy and needs you he would not cope without a 'person' but he would probably very quickly (within 24 hours) bond with a new person. Your happy go lucky type of dog sometimes actually takes longer because they have no need to throw their lot in with someone.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Whether it matters to the dog or not is debatable and I wouldn't agree that dogs suffer no stress, or anxiety when re-homed, but I wouldn't want to buy from breeders who re-home and replace their dogs when they are no longer of use to them, and are incapable of providing them with a comfortable and happy retirement themselves.

Of course I'm talking of breeders who replace their dogs and have every intention of doing so when they buy/breed them, not people who re-home due to unforeseen circumstance.

I'd be happier buying a pup bred by a well researched hobby breeder from their pet bitch in her intended forever home, than a commercially bred show bitch kept only for breeding and maybe showing and re-homed once no longer needed by the breeder.

Just my personal take though, what other people think of the situation is up to them of course.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Elles said:


> Whether it matters to the dog or not is debatable and I wouldn't agree that dogs suffer no stress, or anxiety when re-homed, but I wouldn't want to buy from breeders who re-home and replace their dogs when they are no longer of use to them, and are incapable of providing them with a comfortable and happy retirement themselves.
> 
> Of course I'm talking of breeders who replace their dogs and have every intention of doing so when they buy/breed them, not people who re-home due to unforeseen circumstance.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree that I would rather buy from a hobby breeder with one or two pet bitches. I am not against the older bitch being rehomed but I think pups bred from these bitches are sometimes not going to get the same socialisation and upbringing as puppies reared in the house with a pet bitch and an owner who wants to devote their time to them for fun and enjoyment.


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