# I'm prepared to be shouted at



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I got a spray collar for Zipper 

I never thought I would even consider such a thing - but his barking had got out of control 
I know the majority won't agree with using it - in fact I don't really agree with it myself

I test it first by leaving it switched on to see if his barking set it off when it wasn't on him and it didn't so I was confident that other barking dogs wouldn't accidently set it off.

The main issue was lack of consistant training   With me working and a busy house hold if he was barking when I wasn't there he could be left to it, interupted, tempted back in with food (therefore rewarding) or put to bed - totally confusing for him, but despite me trying to get consistancy with everyone in the household a non doggy husband and 3 teenagers I was fighting a loosing battle 

So I decided to give it a go  Put it on him when I was here he heard a noise and rushed to bark one 1/2 a woof and he stopped looking confused - he came to me for reassurance and I rewarded him. It happened again and the same reaction.
Then his reaction became random 50/50 starting to bark then coming to me or coming straight to me.
Tonight after just 2 evenings of wearing it I haven't used it tonight - when ever he hears a noise he just comes straight to me with a wagging tail for a treat  

I'm hoping not to have to use it again


----------



## maxandskye (Jan 31, 2009)

Blimey ! Drastic actions, each to their I own I suppose.


----------



## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

1 of my dogs has been driving me up the wall over past few months barking/jumping at the fence between my house and next door, their dog sits by the fence baking alot of the time, its a 6ft fence so they cant see each other , so i decided when i saw my dog heading that way i would call him in a really excited voice and i have been lucky he thinks i am more exciting calling him than the dog next door(it didnt always work to start) , when he looked at me i just carried on calling him and when he came towards me i praised him so much and thankfully for us its really worked now he ignores the dog ,
Hopefully OP something will work for you as i know how maddening it can be having a dog barking 
xxx


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Glad it worked for you and know just how awful it is to have a constant barker. If I ever get a complaint about my dogs I'm pretty sure it will be Bruce that causes it because the others don't make a sound - he's like a machine gun though. I once tried a vibrating collar and like you tested it to make sure the others didn't set it off. It seemed to work after the first couple of goes but he soon got used to it and just carried on barking. 

It's something that's difficult to train out I've found because often I'm doing something else, like opening the front door or on the phone and I can't do training with the consistency needed. 

Hope you've cracked it - how nice would that be eh?


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm not expecting a 'miracle cure' - but he always has been a 'terratorial barker'- he's now 6 1/2 and in all this time I'll of made progress with him for a few days then I'll be away or at work and find he's back to square one.
He used to only bark if he saw or heard another dog go by the front window or back garden, we've tried keeping all curtains and windows closed but he can still hear stuff, but now it's dogs, foxes, birds, cats, people he was even barking at a frog the other day.
Where we lived before it wasn't to bad we only had 1 garden either side and not one over the back and our house was off the main walk way through plus there was hardly any cats etc
Since moving just over a year ago we are the main walk through to the local school, an alley way runs past our back garden, there are loads of cats, dogs and wildlife.
I'll let you know how we get on but last night and this morning he wasn't wearing it and no barking just lots of rewards for staying calm and/or coming to me so I'm hopeful that we've broken the cycle and can carry on with reward based training- however I'm also realistic and expect that I may have to use the collar for a few more session - but so far even though he's only worn it for a few hours I feel my £30 has been well spent.


----------



## Doguiesrus (Apr 18, 2012)

Give me ten where can I get them! 4.30 every morning cos the bloody woman down the lane bought some chickens and they start clucking and mine start barking! I have one puppy that insists on barking at everything but I'm trying to ignore him! I did snap at him after a banging head ache and constant yap but realised that didn't work either. I try not to judge anyone on trainning methods as long as the animal is loved and looked after. Sometimes we all get pushed to the final straw but surely you do what you can rather than the dog end up in a rescue cos you carnt cope. Any way my opinion only and I have been up since 445 with barking dogs! So 10 bordeaux free to anyone willing! X


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think you might find that even if it does work, the novelty will wear off after a while. That is what a lot of people have reported anyway. I have never had a constant barker, but my daughter's little spaniel can drive me into a frenzy with his constant barking.


----------



## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

It will work for a while. Then it won`t.
Hitting the dog with a newspaper every time he barks will have the same effect. 
Then the dog realises that it doesn`t actually hurt and learns to ignore it.
I have 4 dogs. If they bark I call them to me and praise or reward. The recall interrupts the behaviour, the praise or reward reinforces the cessation of barking. The mere fact I have `taken charge` has lessened their need to alert the house. 
Therefore I have done what you have done without squirting chemicals up my dogs nose and with a lot more control.


----------



## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I know of one collie that learned to bark the moment the spray collar was put on him, he'd bark non-stop until the reservoir was empty, which took about 20 minutes I'm told..... but he learned to empty it and then just carry on as normal. :sosp:

Hope something works for you though because it certainly is irritating having a barking dog. Thankfully I don't. I'm grateful for that!


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Fleur said:


> I know the majority won't agree with using it - in fact I don't really agree with it myself.
> 
> I'm hoping not to have to use it again


I am not sure you have won the barking battle just yet, Fleur. Whilst not impossible, I severely doubt that a seasoned barker will quit barking for good after a couple of days with an anti- bark collar.

Likely you need more repetitions with it.

Why would anyone want to shout at you for trying to curb your dog's barking??? Unless we live on a farm in the middle of nowhere where barking is only an issue for the owner, we have to consider our neighbours rights to peaceful enjoyment of their homes as much as our dog's wish to bark at everything and anything. I adore dogs but a living close - never mind next door - to a barker is a huge pain in the backside.

In an ideal world, our dogs would only bark if there actually is an intruder. But some dogs like to "talk" and will cheerfully bark at anything. It would be swell if "quiet, please" or blowing them a kiss would suffice...and for many dogs it does. But if yours isn't amongst them, don't beat yourself up over the collar.

Dogs have rights, but so do neighbours.


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> It will work for a while. Then it won`t.
> Hitting the dog with a newspaper every time he barks will have the same effect.
> Then the dog realises that it doesn`t actually hurt and learns to ignore it.
> I have 4 dogs. If they bark I call them to me and praise or reward. The recall interrupts the behaviour, the praise or reward reinforces the cessation of barking. The mere fact I have `taken charge` has lessened their need to alert the house.
> Therefore I have done what you have done without squirting chemicals up my dogs nose and with a lot more control.


I 100% agree with you - but in 5 1/2 years as a family we have not managed to stop his barking  
(I would like to say that the collar I am using using compressed water so it it water vapour not chemicals)

The main issue is consistancy - no matter how much my teenagers promised to reinforce my training they couldn't keep their promises, head phones in, on the phone, going out with their friends etc - I can't be there 100% of the time, I do need to take a shower, go to work, run errands so I am unable to be consistant.
The other 2 don't do it - have had the same training from me but Zipper is a determined barker, it's not constant he will stop after a minute but every noise or movement outside sets him off.
He has 2 or 3 walks a day from 20 minutes to 3 hours depending on weather and what I am doing - he gets play time and cuddles and the odd spot of training, he's not ignored when I am in the house.
It has got to the stage with curtains and windows closed he will launch himself over someone sat on the sofa to get to the window to bark - we won't of heard a thing, we could be sat talking, watching TV or playing a game with him and he has jumped over us to get to the window without warning - when we look out there is a cat sat outside he must of heard the cat bell.

I don't expect to of 'cured' him but as a tool I hope it can help me break the cycle - I wish I hadn't felt this was a possible solution but I personally couldn't see another way forward at the moment - I hope with controlled use along side me distracting him when I hear a sound so he ignores it and gains a reward for remaining calm that this will help distract him from barking at noises I can't hear such as the cat bell scenario above.

I will try to keep this thread updated - I will give honest reports and if it doesn't work and he learns to ignore it, if it changes his behaviours in a negative way such as him becoming depressed nervous etc then I will stop using it and let people know why.

I have carefully introduced the collar - the first evening he didn't wear it I blew into the microphone every time he barked and rewarded him for coming over to me - the noise was enough to interupt him the second night he wore it for an hour with a small box in to get used to the shape and weight whilst I continued to blow into the device, then I put the actual device on the collar.
The 3rd night he started off wearing the collar but then I took it off as he wasn't barking and just rewarded him for being quiet and calm when I heard a noise.
I will put the collar on him this afternoon and watch his behaviours and body language closely.


----------



## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I can understand why you are using one... barking can be a right pain! 


I personally see no issues with it, especially as it's not chemicals.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> It will work for a while. Then it won`t.
> Hitting the dog with a newspaper every time he barks will have the same effect.
> Then the dog realises that it doesn`t actually hurt and learns to ignore it.
> I have 4 dogs. If they bark I call them to me and praise or reward. The recall interrupts the behaviour, the praise or reward reinforces the cessation of barking. The mere fact I have `taken charge` has lessened their need to alert the house.
> Therefore I have done what you have done without squirting chemicals up my dogs nose and with a lot more control.


Please don't take the following as a criticism, because it truly isn't. Plus, I know that different methods work for different people, different dogs and that there simply is no "one size fits all" training approach. So if your approach works for you all - fantastic.

Nonetheless, I am genuinly baffled HOW your dogs can bark LESS if you effectively reward them for it. I know what you are going to say "I don't reward them for barking, I reward them for ceasing to bark".

Well, fair point.

But, that isn't normally how behavioural interventions work. Which follow an "ABC" sequence of events

A = antecedent ( what occurs prior to the behaviour,e.g. hearing a noise)
B = behaviour ( barking)
C = consequence ( what happens immediately during or after the barking)

Now in your "C" what happens is a recall and a treat. And whilst this may intercept the barking...it also infinitely increases the likelyhood that the dogs, overall, will bark even more frequently.

Think about it - why wouldn't they? If every time I barked you called me and gave me a Pound, before too long I would bark all day long. Because THAT is the association I would form "barking = reward".

WE, the humans, think that the dogs may somehow associate " stopping barking = reward". But that assumption isn't in any way underpinned by behavioural principles. It's "action & consequence" which shape and determine a behaviour. Not "non-action ( not barking) & consequence".

Just saying....


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Bruce is nine and in fact is worse than ever now, he even grumbles at us walking up/down stairs, in fact anything and a new one is barking when he hears the ice cream van. I had his hearing checked in case he was a bit sensitive in that area but was told he was fine, no issues with his ears at all. The vet suggested a calmer either natural or something like diazepam but I've tried to avoid that. Although thinking about it perhaps it would help him because it can't be nice for him always being on edge and I think the other dogs must be confused, Kali (being Kali) gets very put out with Bruce and lip curls at him when he's in full voice.  he must seem very unstable to them. 

Hope your results are consistent.


----------



## Guest (Jul 20, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Please don't take the following as a criticism, because it truly isn't. Plus, I know that different methods work for different people, different dogs and that there simply is no "one size fits all" training approach. So if your approach works for you all - fantastic.
> 
> Nonetheless, I am genuinly baffled HOW your dogs can bark LESS if you effectively reward them for it. I know what you are going to say "I don't reward them for barking, I reward them for ceasing to bark".
> 
> ...


On my phone so can't do a full reply, but I'd guess it's working for C&D because of putting the behavior on cue, thus controlling it. 
There is more to B-mod than the ABC formula above.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

If I understand correctly, the OP's dog was barking at noises.

"A constant barker".

A rhetorical question really just to emphasize/assess the damage control/efficacy of positive punishment/neg reinforcement in this instance:

Why do dogs "constantly" bark at noises?
What is the emotional state behind this behaviour?

Are dogs that bark consistently at noises ("every noise and movement outside sets him off") confident dogs or stressed dogs?

Punishing behaviours which are produced as a result of negative emotional states (and arousal), suppresses those behaviours but ultimately does not change the way the animal feels.

You cannot operantly condition an emotional response. You can operantly condition behaviours. The positive experience of positive reinforcement (for operantly conditioned behaviours) however can be used to counter condition (classically condition) an emotional response in previously troublesome situations.  It is essential that the dog is presented with the stimuli at such a level that he feels safe and is able to enjoy the reinforcement gained by participating with the handler by performing cued or uncued positively reinforced behaviours. This positive experience can be used to counter condition an emotional response (the positive experience of being rewarded and feeling safe thus becomes associated with the previously feared or otherwise stimulus).

Punishing the unwanted behaviour however, just suppresses it.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> On my phone so can't do a full reply, but I'd guess it's working for C&D because of putting the behavior on cue, thus controlling it.
> *There is more to B-mod than the ABC formula above*.


Mmm, unless C & D is actually asking her dogs to bark before they bark, she really isn't putting the behaviour on cue, though, is she? The only cue/command is the recall.

As to being "more" to behaviour modification than ABC ( which isn't a behaviour modification, just the natural sequence) sure there is. Motivation, stimulus strength, magnitude of the reward, and, and.

But the inherent problem with unwanted barking is that we have generally little control over the accompanying influences aside from how lavish the reward is. And unless the reward is outstanding and/or novel, dispensing it constantly will weaken its desirability.

Still, this wasn't meant to be a critique on C & D's approach. If it works for her, it's all good.

My initial reply pertained to her objection to the citronella collar. I don't think any owner resorts to one light-heartedly...the problem is, often the alternatives are limited, more aversive, or just not practical.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Please don't take the following as a criticism, because it truly isn't. Plus, I know that different methods work for different people, different dogs and that there simply is no "one size fits all" training approach. So if your approach works for you all - fantastic.
> 
> Nonetheless, I am genuinly baffled HOW your dogs can bark LESS if you effectively reward them for it. I know what you are going to say "I don't reward them for barking, I reward them for ceasing to bark".
> 
> ...


Although this is all very logical, it doesn't actually work in practice. When I started looking after my daughter's little spaniel, he drove me nuts. He barked when someone went past the house, but did not stop barking once they had gone. In fact it got worse and worse until I could have strangled him.

I found that calling him away as soon as he barked, making him sit calmly then giving him a treat or a fuss, worked beautifully. I had him so that if someone went past the house, he would look at me and I only had to say "ah, ah" and he came trotting over. He did not always get a treat, but he did get a fuss.

He didn't work when I wasn't there to reinforce it though, but that could have happened given time.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Behaviour modification does not equal operant conditioning. 

Behaviour modification necessitates identifying the emotional/ or otherwise response which drives the behaviour. The behaviour is a symptom of the emotional/or otherwise response. 
You cannot operantly condition emotional responses. 
Emotional responses are subject to classical conditioning. 

If the dog is barking "at every noise or movement outside", are they relaxed or in a "good place" emotionally?
Or are they stressed?
Will the use of an aversive (used to startle/shock/surprise the animal) help improve this emotional state or consequentially counter condition their response to the environment?


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

lemmsy said:


> Behaviour modification does not equal operant conditioning.
> 
> Behaviour modification necessitates identifying the emotional/ or otherwise response which drives the behaviour. The behaviour is a symptom of the emotional/or otherwise response.
> You cannot operantly condition emotional responses.
> ...


This is something I am genuinely concerned about.

However what I find confusing is: - he appears a relaxed and confident dog - he welcomes visitors and other dogs into our home with no issues, but the few seconds they stand outside he madly barks the moment they step through the door he is happy to see them. 
He's fine off lead on walks, he can be defensive/aggresive when on lead - but even then one day he'll growl and lunge at a dog another day we'll see the same dog and he'll walk on by without a second glance.
He loves playing with visiting dogs and he adores attention from people, he will plonk himself down next to complete strangers if they so much as glance in his direction for a fuss.
The barking at outside noises has got slowly worse over the years - some days it's worse than others today I've not used the collar at all there has been neighbours coming and going along the alley next to our garden and he's just been laid out snoozing.

Here is the monster looking like butter wouldn't melt - I took this pic 5minutes ago - neighbours are having a bar-b-q now and he's sleeping through it


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

lemmsy said:


> If I understand correctly, the OP's dog was barking at noises.
> 
> "A constant barker".
> 
> ...


Intellectually speaking, you are correct.

But here is the thing - IF you live in a suburban neighbourhood, like many if not most of us do, and IF you don't want to fall out with or annoy your neighbours...nor want to receive a curt letter from your council asking you to promptly address your dogs barking forthwith.....how the dog FEELS isn't really the most crucial aspect.

If you live in the Prairie or the middle of the Scottish Highlands, it doesn't matter how anyone else feels about a dog barking. Since there is nobody there. Thus, great weight and consideration can be given to pondering whether one even should address an inherently natural behaviour like barking. But with neighbours all around our dogs have to fit in and aquiesce to a weird, human world. Where barking is frowned upon. It is what it is.

It doesn't matter how sophisticated or educated the cognitive explanation for why a dog barks and how to best address it is. What matters is whether it stops the dog barking and keeps the neighbours amicable.

Do dogs bark out of nervous arousal or for some other reason?

I can confidently say I know cheerfully happy, relaxed barkers and extremely jumpy, uncertain barkers and about everything in between. Some dogs, like people, are just more verbose than others. Some breeds are more audibly expressive than others. Some swear that there is a difference between the genders and that females bark more than males.

None of the above really matters though, aside from the dog learning not to bark in the first place ( suppression) or to cease instantly upon cue. Those are the ONLY options if we want to keep dogs in a neighbourhood. And the truth is, our neighbours rights outrank our dogs rights.

All the intellectual arguments in the world aren't going to change this. But a citronella collar often will....


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Intellectually speaking, you are correct.
> IF you don't want to fall out with or annoy your neighbours...nor want to receive a curt letter from your council asking you to promptly address your dogs barking forthwith.....how the dog FEELS isn't really the most crucial aspect.


Here's the thing: How the dog feels really is the most crucial aspect. Why?
Earlier, I explained that barking is a symptom of an emotional or otherwise state, correct? If you do not change the classically conditioned response to the stimuli then the dog is always going to continue to feel the same way about the stimuli and... when the citronella collar stops being used (unless you are planning to use it for the dogs' entire life) and the dog has been presented with the stimuli (with the same emotional response as always) enough times to know that the aversive will not happen anymore, they will start to bark again. 
Why? 
Is that their fault? Hell no! They are just animals and are feeling anxiety or arousal. The response is inevitable and it's our (us humans') fault that we let it happen again and didn't think about how our dogs' felt or the repercussions of quick fixes on our dogs or neighbours' sanity.

So yes, how the dog feels is crucial in effective, scientific and humane behaviour modification. Unless you can address the root cause of the problem in instances like this, there will be a regression and your neighbours will be incredibly unhappy again and you and your dog will be facing further complaints from the council.





> It doesn't matter how sophisticated or educated the cognitive explanation for why a dog barks and how to best address it is.


Just to clarify: the explanation is not based on the cognitive psychological approach, instead common principles of behaviourism. The sole reference to the cognitive aspect comes under the the description of the emotional responses produced as a result of classically conditioned responses to stimuli. All of these are subconscious responses. The dog just feels what he feels.



> What matters is whether it stops the dog barking and keeps the neighbours amicable.


Not so. What matters is that: 
1. The dog stops barking longterm (an effective b-mod job with no/less risk of regression). 
2. The methods employed are not likely to be at the expense of the welfare of the animal. In order to totally eliminate the risk of extinction (and even then there could be other draw backs) the dog would need to continually wear the collar longterm. 
Any trainer that would suggest that, should not be calling themselves a trainer. Simples
3. The neighbours are aware of the efforts you are going through to tackle the problem and remain amicable as you complete the b-mod and after completion (with no regression).



> Do dogs bark out of nervous arousal or for some other reason?


Dogs bark because they are:
Fearful/Anxious/stressed/conflicted
Confused/frustrated
Excited (playing- aroused')
Wound up (stressed)
and the list goes on.



> I can confidently say I know cheerfully happy, relaxed barkers and extremely jumpy, uncertain barkers and about everything in between.


"A relaxed barker" is a juxtaposition. A dog cannot be relaxed and barking. 
That is not to say necessarily that he is stressed or experiencing a negative emotional state, just that if he is barking he is not relaxed. He might be a happy barker who is excited because he is playing with another dog or otherwise. Or he may be frustrated at an activity he is completing. The classic one is the dog who barks in agility as he enters the weaves. The handler says "Oh he always does that, he loves the weaves". Actually he always does that because she nearly always cues late and the poor dog has to twist and turn to get the entry correctly. Frustration. 
Either way the barking is because he has past a certain point of arousal. Definitely not relaxed. Not unhappy, but not relaxed. There is such a thing as "good stress". As such, not all stress is bad. However too many arousal inducing activities can have an affect on impulse control and other aspects and influence or induce other forms of stress too.



> None of the above really matters though, aside from the dog learning not to bark in the first place ( suppression) or to cease instantly upon cue. Those are the ONLY options if we want to keep dogs in a neighbourhood. And the truth is, our neighbours rights outrank our dogs rights.


Not so. You missed out an option. 
Teach our dogs that it's ok, that they don't have any need to bark in the first place. No suppression, no stop on cue. No micromanagement. Just teaching them that "it's ok, you're fine, no biggie". Conditioning a positive (emotional) response to the stimuli which means that they no longer produce fear/anxiety/arousal based responses to it and need to bark. It's called counter-conditioning.
Your options are not the only options.

Our neighbours rights are important. 
I think the well-being of our dogs is too. And I don't think it's impossible to work the two together and ensure both needs/rights are met adequately. 



> All the intellectual arguments in the world aren't going to change this. But a citronella collar often will....


If intellect means better understanding and better, more humane, more effective treatment plans that are in the best interests of you, the neighbour and the dog, then yes it will change things.

A citronella collar is not going to feature in intellectual, humane, effective treatment plans.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Fleur said:


> This is something I am genuinely concerned about.
> 
> However what I find confusing is: - he appears a relaxed and confident dog - he welcomes visitors and other dogs into our home with no issues, but the few seconds they stand outside he madly barks the moment they step through the door he is happy to see them.


When they stand outside can he see them properly? Is the sound of their voices reduced too?
Is the trigger for is barking always audible stimuli or is it sometimes visual?


> He's fine off lead on walks, he can be defensive/aggresive when on lead - but even then one day he'll growl and lunge at a dog another day we'll see the same dog and he'll walk on by without a second glance.


Onlead, the choices he can make to navigate the situation are reduced. With a certain dog, an interaction onlead may well lead to a defensive/reactive/aggro response because he cannot avoid or seek distance/space. His ability to communicate effectively is reduced. 
Another thing that can occur is barrier frustration.

Onlead interactions are tricky. Certain dogs I think benefit from learning to just ignore most dogs when onlead. No pressure to interact, protection from unwanted approaches from offlead dogs etc, no problem. Not saying this is the case with your boy though


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Fleur said:


> This is something I am genuinely concerned about.
> 
> However what I find confusing is: - he appears a relaxed and confident dog - he welcomes visitors and other dogs into our home with no issues, but the few seconds they stand outside he madly barks the moment they step through the door he is happy to see them.
> He's fine off lead on walks, he can be defensive/aggresive when on lead - but even then one day he'll growl and lunge at a dog another day we'll see the same dog and he'll walk on by without a second glance.
> ...


He sounds very much like Bruce - looks a bit like him too albeit he's black, lol 
Bruce is a happy go lucky dog, always up for a game and is very adept at throwing a toy in your lap. Gets on well with people after they're in the house but not while they're outside, never snapped or growled at people in all his nine years.

Like you I wouldn't consider him stressed, in fact I wouldn't consider any of mine stressed at home, just a bit reactive at times. I don't think a stressed dog would kip all over the place like Bruce does or positioned on his back with all four paws in the air.

I do wonder though what makes your boy and mine get worse over the years. I had thought the hearing may have either dulled - making noises muffled and somehow strange or heightened - making the least little thing sound much higher pitched than it actually is. Either I thought could make him overreactive to sound. 
My ex OH has Bruce's sister and she is exactly the same, lives with a chihuahua who is not noise reactive at all, so it seems more nature than nurture. Litter mates behaving the same way who don't actually live together and raised in different ways. Has to be nature - surely! Could be the same with your boy, do you know anyone with one if his siblings?


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

lemmsy said:


> Not so. You missed out an option.
> Teach our dogs that it's ok, that they don't have any need to bark in the first place. No suppression, no stop on cue. No micromanagement. Just teaching them that "it's ok, you're fine, no biggie". Conditioning a positive (emotional) response to the stimuli which means that they no longer produce fear/anxiety/arousal based responses to it and need to bark. It's called counter-conditioning.
> Your options are not the only options.
> 
> ...


Lemmsy, I don't want to hijack Fleur's thread by playing intellectual ping-pong.

And since I know how easy it is to misunderstand one another in a written exchange, let me preface the subsequent by stating that I don't intend it to sound sarcastic, ironic or in any way ill intended:

What you wrote sounds great, but it misses one crucial feature. And that is....

...HOW?

Exactly HOW do you get a dog to stop barking via your method? Whatever this may be.

Because that is the tricky bit and often where we as owners and trainers falter. In fact, that is often the hurdle where eloquent ideology and practical application can't be reconciled. Because a barking dog's normal environment can't be that tightly controlled like the lofty examples in B-Mod training books.

So please delineate HOW exactly you would implement an effective anti-bark B-mod program in Fleur's case leading to long term success.

Bearing in mind that there are several family members who may not be consistantly compliant with the approach, with an environment whose sounds cannot be predicted or controlled, and with a finite resource in terms of time and neighbours goodwill.

How do you train the dog not to bark via a concrete, replicable, humane, reliable and step-by-step method?

I for one would love to know. Since I am no particular fan of antibark collars either.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Lemmsy, I don't want to hijack Fleur's thread by playing intellectual ping-pong.
> 
> And since I know how easy it is to misunderstand one another in a written exchange, let me preface the subsequent by stating that I don't intend it to sound sarcastic, ironic or in any way ill intended:
> 
> ...


Hiya, 
Obviously alot would depend on the specifics for each and every case. Without the specifics/meeting the dog/handler in question, I can only give rough ideas on the questions I would be asking, the management and DS/CC procedures I would be suggesting too.

First of all, list your stimuli. What does the dog bark at? I'd want a list (maybe even a diary type list/account). When? All the time? Certain times?
Are they all visual or audible triggers as well?
Is it always when the owner is present or does it occur when owner absent also? Film/record the dog if needed to check.

Once triggers are identified we think about how we can manipulate our environment (our house/property) to make the triggers less intense and avoid as much as is reasonable possible, rehearsal of the unwanted behaviour (barking).

For visual stimuli we will be thinking about things we can use to block vision. 
E.g. In the garden- vision block/privacy material fence screens latched onto fencing (with cable ties or wire) to block the dog's view. Bamboo fence screens do the same job. 
Indoors- adding window frosting where needed (usually to the bottom half of the windows) so that the dog cannot see what is outside, thus reducing the incidence of barking and giving you more scope to counter condition the dogs' response, whilst not allowing the dog to practice the unwanted response and keeping your neighbours on side.









After effective DS/CC work, the frosting could be removed if required, although some might prefer to keep it on for maintenance.

For audible stimuli, we take the dog as far away from the audible stimuli as we reasonably can, to reduce the intensity of the trigger and reduce the likelihood of barking. 
If the dog is barking at things that are outside the front of the house, we see if we can relocate the dogs' space towards the back of the house. Is their a room space towards the back, where we could move their bed and stuff to? 
Having walls, brick, insulation in between the dog and potential triggers, helps to lessen the intensity of the trigger and means less likelihood of barking is reduced. 
We insure that the dog is comfortable in the new space but giving him plenty of positive experiences there to damage control against any stress that might be induced due to change in 'environment'. Additional stress would be detrimental and likely to increase barking/symptomatic behaviours.

If the dog is barking more often at specific times of day that are identifiable, another management initiative that may help might be giving the dog an easy (non frustrating, endorphin releasing) activity to perform that will occupy him so that he is distracted before he is presented with the trigger for barking.
For instance, say you lived outside a school and everyday at 3:15 when the kids come out of school, your dog sat in the front room at the front of house starts barking at their excited voices, laughing and general rabble as they come out of school; you could move his "place" to the back of the house and have something like a kong filled with easily accessible and high enough value to hold interest items, such as natural yoghurt, fixed with kibble (if kibble fed), a portion of their wet or raw mince and some super high value items mixed in there too as a surprise (dehyrdrated liver/fish is a good one). You present him with the kong at 10 minutes past (so before the trigger will be presenting), knowing that he will be engaged with the kong when the kids come out a few minutes later. With reduced audible triggers, the dog is more likely to be able to engage in his kong puzzle than bark (although all depends on the emotional state of the animal. If the dog is highly stressed, he will not feel safe and he will not be able to eat or engage in other activities). 
Sometimes simple management protocols like this that help you break rehearsed behaviour chains and counter condition that way can make all of the difference. Obviously you won't be expecting to continually feed the dog kongs when the kids come out for the rest of his life (but for weeks/months initially this will be essential for success), but once the behaviour chain has been broken, the new response can be maintained, with a few piece of kibble and/or higher value bits being tossed to him in his room at the given time, with the occasional kong chucked for maintenance.

Hard-core DS/CC work:

For dogs that are barking at multiple audible/visual triggers at multiple times, identifying your top three or four triggers is going to be the best way forwards. 
In the case of audible triggers, some dogs respond well to the sounds scary/noises CDs which can then be used as a tool to desensitize the dog to the stimuli starting at a low volume and increasing. Rather than just presenting the CD stimulus alone, it is best to pair it with something positive. Stuffed kongs or food being tossed is good, although personally I would prefer the former as I think tossing food for each repetition is likely to lead to hypervigilency whereas what we really want is relaxation; we are more likely to achieve this with a non frustrating/endorphin releasing activity such as kong emptying or raw (recreational) bones.
With the CD you must only attempt to work with one stimulus at a time, working very systematically on increasing volume. If at any point the dog cannot engage in the positive/enjoyable activity (even if they are not barking), this is an indication that you have pushed the criteria too far.

For dogs that are not responsive to the CDs (some don't recognize the sounds as 'real'), identifying specific times of day when the trigger is likely to happen as in the school time analogy above, reducing intensity of the trigger (management- new room- quieter trigger) and offering desired (enjoyable) activity before hand should go some way towards; 1. Short term= reducing the barking 2. Longterm= counter-conditioning the dog's response to the trigger.

For visual stimuli, the process is similar, although somewhat easier with management initiatives such as frosting and screening in place. The work with presentation of enjoyable endorphin releasing activities being offered is still preferable too for decent proofing and ensuring we change the way the dog feels. Once we feel confident, and if desired, reducing the vision block so that the dog has limited/but some vision of the trigger and is presented with the enjoyable activity to perform (at a distance) begins the process of DS/CC.

Typical DS/CC is also useful in this instance. Start with trigger at a distance; open/closed bar. Reduce distance once you have had a number of successful trials. etc etc...
A combination of DS/CC (changing the way the dog feels) and management (vision block) in the meantime/for maintenance is a pretty good plan which covers most based.

*For all of above initiatives it is hugely important, to use a holistic approach. That is to say, to look at aspects of the dogs' life that might me inducing additional stress in other areas, which may be contributing to unwanted behaviours such as barking. I'm sure you've heard the analogy of the stress levels being like a glass of water?
If not:

Glass of Water Analogy- Whelan 
The Stress Bathtub

A stressed out dog is more likely to react more quickly to triggers. 
Where there are cases of additional stress, we look at how we can reduce the dog being presented with these situations or how we can make these situations less stressful. 
There are a range of calmatives on the market that may be useful in these cases to help reduce stress/take the edge off whilst we work on changing things/counter-conditioning with the dog. No product is guaranteed to be successful, some work for some dogs others don't but it's worth a try.

In addition another important point is not forgetting the medical side of things. Some dogs might be particularly noise sensitive and this may not only be something that can be explained behaviourally. It is important therefore to rule out anything medically which could be worsening such an issue. 
It could be that the dog has a problem with his ears (damage after an ear infection) or another slightly more complicated problem. 
Just an anecdote; I have a dog with chronic health problems. One of these, a hereditary vitamin B12 malabsorption/deficiency problem, can have an affect on his behaviour. When his B12 levels are low he is more noise sensitive and generally on edge. He is now treated/supplemented so that his B12 levels are managed and this doesn't happen.
In many cases there may be no physiological aspect to intercept but it is worth ruling out. *

All of the above can take time/consistency depending on the severity of the problem. Keeping your neighbours on side by having a chat with them about it, explaining what you have done so far to reduce/help solve the problem (dog moved to a different room where he is less likely to bark and less likely to bother them if he does) so that they can see that you do care and are listening to them and gestures such as a card/choccies as a thank you for their patience can go a long way. 
You may not have understanding neighbours but if you do, the above can really help.

ETA: You may find this article interesting also:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/3931


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Well, I like the suggestions!

Personally, I cant envisage too many people embracing the frosted window option ( due to expense and perhaps aesthetic consideration), but I think the CD featuring trigger noises and the stuffed kong diversion for triggers occuring at specific, pre-set intervals are brilliant.

I have a friend with a GSD who goes beserk at the chime of the doorbell. "Beserk" being the accurate description. Perhaos a CD with that particular sound coupled with a kong could de-sensitize him over time. 

Good ideas!


----------



## Guest (Jul 21, 2013)

I'm a little late to the party, but I just want to reiterate that addressing the dog's emotional state IS one of (if not the most) important step in any behavioral modification program. In fact, if you address the dog's emotional state, the barking may just solve itself. 

I think it's a huge mistake to say the dog's emotional state doesn't matter. Yes, you absolutely can stop barking without addressing the emotions, BUT - and we see this over and over, either the suppression will be short lived (the barking will come back - often worse than it was before), or another behavior will surface in it's place - often even more undesirable than the original behavior you were trying to suppress. 

Barking is arousal, plain and simple. Control the arousal, you control the barking. One option is teaching a dog to relax on a mat, ping pong-ing between an arousing game of tug to relax on a mat, teaches the dog to control his own arousal levels. CC with things like a peanut butter muzzle. Paired with impulse control and arousal control games, and before you know it you have a dog who barks less and stops barking far easier. Make it all about the dog controlling himself (instead of human controlling dog) and the protocol will soon work even when there is no one home to tell the dog to not bark. 

It's not hard, it's just a lot of trainers - even R+ trainers don't have a lot of experience dealing with high arousal using force-free methods because so much of pet dog training (all of it?) is based in never letting the dog get aroused at all. Which is fine, until you have a dog who doesn't play by the "don't get aroused" rules. Then you're left looking at correction collars or facing the fact that you have to work with the dog at the point they're at - in arousal. There are tons of ways of dealing with arousal using force-free methods that work really well, we just need to share them more.  Books like "Control Unleashed" and "Click to Calm" are good primers.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Well, I like the suggestions!
> 
> Personally, I cant envisage too many people embracing the frosted window option ( due to expense and perhaps aesthetic consideration), but I think the CD featuring trigger noises and the stuffed kong diversion for triggers occuring at specific, pre-set intervals are brilliant.
> 
> ...


Thanks 

The frosting isn't too bad actually. I used some on the very back windows on my car a while back. To clarify, not in anyway that would obscure my vision/ability to do blind spot checks etc. These are tiny windows at the very back that are tinted a little bit and more there for aesthetic reasons really I think. In the van version of the car they aren't there. 
This was because I had a dog who was barking/going overthreshold at uncontrolled movement stimuli passing by in the car, as well as audible "screaching" sound triggers, such as the screaming of a motorbike.

I used the frosting with a covered crate. I worked alot on relaxation protocols, crate games, controlled entrances and exits (control unleashed style) as well as DS/CC to the audible stimuli with the help of a remote controlled treat dispenser placed on top of the cage too. 
After a while I took the frosting off as no longer needed and it came off fine, only left one or two small patches of adhesive which were easily cleaned off with soapy water. 
I purchased the frosting in small quantity very cheaply from B&Q.

I must reiterate that I agree wholeheartedly with what Ouesi said about working WITH the arousal. DS/CC is important but in cases especially say, when we are not talking strictly speaking about fear/anxiety based responses but arousal/excitement, the key (as well as DS/CC work and management whilst you do all of these things) is teaching the dog to control his arousal and working with the arousal. Very often the arousal based response is such a strong FAP response in the dog in question that it is totally incompatible to expect for the behaviour to extinguish or not occur. It's innate, it's internally reinforcing. You're stuck with it. Teaching the dog to control himself and his arousal and working with it in your training programme and you are more likely to get somewhere.

I have an incredibly highly driven working sheepdog (genuinely the strongest working dog I and my trainer peers know) and the only way I have successfully taught him to focus during agility sessions instead of becoming over-threshold, barking and zoning in on the working dog's movement was to work on impulse control and crate/mat games. When he is not working he stays on his spot, unless I've asked him to otherwise. I always make sure I maintain this behaviour with a high reward history, sometimes the reward for duration on his spot is release to play, sometimes we practice shorter durations for release to toy/tug/herding balls. 
As the history for release to practice FAP based responses to movement become rehearsed and reinforced on desirable targets in the agility setting, as over-arousal becomes limited, as frustration reduces and focus increases, with lots of hard work, you find that the dog learns to ignore the previously unwanted targets for undesired instinctive behaviour because they aren't in such a state that that response is inevitable, nor do they need to do it. They are in control of themselves and have options. They can make operant choices.

Back OT... although the CDs don't work with all dogs (not all dogs identify the recorded sounds as the same as the real ones- something changes somewhere in the recording process is my guess)... for those that want to experiment with DS/CC work with sound recordings... the following site is a good shout, with loads of free sound recordings of all sorts of things, from lawnmowers to thunderstorms:
Freesound.org - Freesound.org


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I think it's a huge mistake to say the dog's emotional state doesn't matter. Yes, you absolutely can stop barking without addressing the emotions, BUT - and we see this over and over, either the suppression will be short lived (the barking will come back - often worse than it was before), or another behavior will surface in it's place - often even more undesirable than the original behavior you were trying to suppress.
> 
> *Barking is arousal, plain and simple. Control the arousal, you control the barking. *


I view it differently. Despite the risk of sounding like a trucculant toddler, I do.

Which isn't to say that I think your premise or viewpoint is wrong, BTW.

But I believe that a large component of barking is...habit. Just habit.

The original trigger, or emotional state, which yielded the barking response may no longer be all that relevant to the dog at present. And one might argue that it is the physical response, the barking,which alters the dog's emotional reponse to a certain stimulus and not vice versa.

Lets face it, since none of us actually ARE dogs, all we can do is guess, deduce, hypothesize and then do something which makes the most sense to us. It would be neat if we could ask the dog:"Say, Rover, why do you get so frazzled and bark when you hear XYZ?" and either hear " Dunno, really. I've always done it like that" or "the thought of someone trespassing against my family or home fills me with indignation and rage". But since we can't get this info we might ascribe and an emotional state to the dog which s/he may not even have.

With barking in a neighbourhood we have to find a relatively swift solution and approach which also has to be practical & dovetail with any other commitments we have. That is to say that a busy mum, with 3 kids, an outside full-time job, a house to run, etc, etc, has a very different supply of available training time than say a pensioner living on their own with one dog.

My main gripe with a lot of B-mod recommendations isn't that the aren't valid. Given unlimited time and no other commitments, they may work well. But their application is often so time consuming that they just aren't practical. Which leaves the person needing help with a barking dog NOW kind of nowhere. Never mind unwilling to implement them in the first place. Especially if their family consists of 5 people all doing something different when the dog barks.

That aside, as you believe that arousal is the source of all barking, are you familiar with Schachtner & Singer's seminal study ( done in the early 60's, if memory serves) on misattribution of arousal? In essence, the researchers wanted to test the prevailing notion that our emotional response to something governs our physical response. But, they hypothesized, could it also work the other way around?

Example : imagine you are happily traipsing through the woods when you see a bear. Huge grizzly bear. Coming towards you. Now...in that case your physical response ( sweaty palms, racing heart rate, etc) is the result of your emotional response (fear). A normal, appropriate response. Heck, its a bear. Frequently, though, the source of arousal isn't clear or even absent. Yet our - our our dogs response - is still akin to meeting the fear inducing bear. Hence, somehow arousal must become misattributed and maybe this occurs because the physical symptoms ( increased heart rate) PRODUCE the subsequent emotional response.

In which case it would be more successful to treat it medically than behaviourally.

Meaning , should we administer calming herbs, Bach Flower therapy and/or beta blockers to the barking dogs...or a behavioural program?

Me? I don't know....but what I DO know is no one else KNOWS either :smile5:


----------



## Guest (Jul 21, 2013)

Yep, lots of barking is habit and when that's the case training an alternate response, putting behavior on cue and/or CC all work extremely well. I still contend that given the choice, the dog would choose a peanut butter or yogurt "muzzle" over an aversive spray of water to the face 

While I agree with you that we don't *know* what a dog is thinking, that doesn't mean we can't make very educated guesses based on observations of body language and even blood and saliva samples if you're so inclined. 

Force-free methods are not more difficult or timely to implement than any other method with the added bonus of minimal fall-out/easily fixed if applied incorrectly. 
The argument that force-free b-mod is too time consuming or difficult to be practical is IMHO a cop-out argument repeatedly shown to not hold any water in real-life application. It doesn't take any longer to teach a dog to relax on a mat than it does to teach a dog that when he barks he's going to get blasted with water. Hell with a manners minder you don't even have to get off the sofa to do the latter, just as with a correction collar. Probably cost about the same too.

There has been a lot of research done on generalized anxiety since the 60's, and we currently know that there are many factors at stake, not just one contributing factor. Stress hormones in animals are a particular interest of mine, and they absolutely contribute to behavior, often in ways you wouldn't necessarily connect. Fascinating stuff, and the more I read about it, the more convinced I am that aversive tools have no place in any behavior modification plan, especially a family dog and the expectations of tolerance that we put on them.


----------



## MyUserNameWasTaken (Jul 1, 2013)

I read through _most_ of the posts on this thread, and I thought I would share a bit. I don't know if this will help you or maybe it could help someone who reads it, but this was my experience.

I had a dog that was maddening when it came to barking at every noise and digging in the yard. She would dig up nuts that the squirrels and crows had buried (They also pee on them to mark them, so not very healthy!!) And anything else she could smell under the dirt. Anyways, I had the same solution to both problems.* Teach her that pretty much there was a time and place things are allowed, and the house&yard aren't it. *

This was years ago, so please forgive my memory not being the best. First, was the barking. ANY noise that she did not know exactly how it was made, she would bark. Not just one or two barks, but the howling-bark like someone was at the door. 
I can't exactly go into every detail, but I started encouraging her barking at these noises. Soon enough, pairing a command when she would bark, I eventually had her barking on command. With this established, we would have little barking sessions *outside* every now and then, and it was completely discouraged in the house and only outside when I _allowed_ her. As soon as she could bark on command, it made teaching her the "quiet" command a million times easier. I couldn't believe it took me so long to figure out, and all I had to do was relate to my dog. By doing this, my dog knew to bark on command, be quiet on command, and to follow my lead. And there was no more barking! *It didn't take all of my time! Just patience and remembering to give her the command and praise when she barked.* Sounds backwards to begin with, I know, but it works. Baby steps. Overall, it took almost a month completely. From starting to praise her and having her do the commands on the spot. (I'm sure she could have learned faster, but I was pretty busy at that time)

With the digging... It was another story. I had discouraged it so much she would do it when I wasn't watching >.> Smart cookie she was! Anyways, it took longer but was the same process. Teach her to do it on command by adding praise & said command. She was confused at first, why I was allowing it. And I did not allow her to dig up acorns and such, we actually learned to sniff out truffles during this process also  a little added bonus. But like the barking, she leaned when and where it was okay and when it wasn't. The digging took longer and more effort to solve, yet the process was the same. I realized it would be easier to take time teaching her these things, and in the long run I'd have no issues with the training back firing. Unless truffles start growing in my yard, that is 

I hope this was easy enough to understand and Sorry it's so long! I probably could have found a much more simple way to explain it buttt where's the fun it that?

* You can take the dog out of the wild, but you can't take the wild out of the dog*. She just needed an outlet to release the urges, and I'm sure this process was still more stimulating when we had our "sessions" than the dog having to suppress it's natural instinct/response. Thank you!


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I very nearly didn't start this thread but I'm glad I did - lot's of great information about dog training/behaviour so thank you everyone
And please feel free to hi-jack away - it always makes threads interesting when the evolve 

I know the collar isn't ideal - I've tried to use it in the best way I can (if that's possible)
It is a plain water vapour - no citronella or chemicals
He wears it upside down - so it doesn't spray in his face, at the moment the noise interrupts the behaviour immediately.
It is taken off when we engage him in play, training, cuddles, walks and at night.

Today the neighbouring dogs were having one of their regular spats through the fence at each other - Zipper would normally rush to join in, tonight as soon as he heard them he came straight over to me, I gave him a food reward, verbal praise and a good fuss - so for the moment it appears to be helping - only time will tell.



lemmsy said:


> When they stand outside can he see them properly? Is the sound of their voices reduced too?
> Is the trigger for is barking always audible stimuli or is it sometimes visual?
> 
> Onlead, the choices he can make to navigate the situation are reduced. With a certain dog, an interaction onlead may well lead to a defensive/reactive/aggro response because he cannot avoid or seek distance/space. His ability to communicate effectively is reduced.
> ...


He is stimulated by both visual and audible - if he hears a cat bell or kids riding their skateboards and if he sees a fox or another dog he barks
If a cat is sat in the tree in next doors garden or as the other day a frog was sat the other side of the fence he barks constantly at them.
Sometimes he'll ignore people walking past - other times he barks I can't see any reason why some and not others
We currently live with our curtains drawn 90% of the time  to block his view out side - but I can't never open a window to reduce sound
The house in a front to back lounge dinner with window at the front and large patio doors at the back.

He can't see people at the door as there are 2 doors between him and the front door - the curtains are drawn - and if they approach from oneside they wouldn't pass the window anyway.

On lead - I'm trying to teach him to ignore other dogs- I don't let him approach other dogs when on lead, I reward him when he's calm - I never let other dogs approach when I can help it - I calmly walk in a wide arcs to avoid face on approaches - we can pass a dog on the opposite side of the road and one day he will bark and the next he will ignore the same dog

He seems to be a terratorial barker? if we sit at on a bench within 2 minutes he'll be barking at other dogs as they pass even if they are a fair distance away - it feels at home he barks at anyone or anything that comes close to the house/garden that he can see or hear.


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Some great responses here, some far too in depth for my little brain.  

There isn't any answer to nature though, whether some breeds may be more prone to barking than others despite being raised in the same way and in the same environment as those who don't bark. I think we all know most people think of small dogs as yappy little things, it seems to outweigh opinion against large dogs being likewise. There surely is some evidence that smaller dogs tend to be more vocal than large, some call it 'small dog syndrome' often with them being more reactive to other dogs too. 

Having lived with a dog like Fleurs for nearly a decade I can assure anyone that a couple of months of consistent training would be far preferable than ten years of barking hell! It's not being a couch potato and not wanting to put the work in as its far harder living with such frustration than making an effort to try and change it. 

How do you manage the consistency required when you're not there, when no one is there, when other family members can't be relied upon to carry it through either? Surely intermittent training is bound to fail, give confusion to the dog also. You don't want the dog to stop the behaviour only when you're around, you want them to stop it altogether but without being constantly able to carry training through in the early stages how can you ever manage to make that happen?

Frosting windows is all very well but looks awful and these are our homes too not a kennel but our family environment and with my dog and from what I can gather Fleurs too, they don't have to see something in order to bark at it - on the contrary they'll bark when they can clearly see or when they can't. 

If consistency is the key surely the only way to be consistent is to use an aversive like Fleur is using, something that will carry on the 'training' when we are not able too. 

In my case I also feel that Bruce thinks he is top dog over the other six. He was here before any of them, very much is a 'kicky and scratchy' marker after he toilets in the garden and will wait for the others to pee to go and cover it, something the other boys aren't interested in doing. 
Why just one dog in a group of six should feel stressed or threatened while being treated exactly the same is something I find difficult to understand. Their environment is identical as is their raising, so why such a huge difference in just one?

Personally I am going to try (again) the bark on command then quiet, although it hasn't worked before its worth another go but I'm edging towards the collar purely for the consistency it offers and if it doesn't work then nothing is lost. 
If these collars are so ineffective why did a trainer like Victoria Stilwell use one to stop a dog chasing ducks? She is a renowned PR trainer who herself admitted that sometimes you need an aversive when all else fails and it worked with that dog even after it was no longer being used, after a six month follow up visit, it ignored the ducks as if they weren't there. If they are so prone to failure would she have really considered using it?


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I really cant be bothered to read through all the long posts - but I think you are using the collar the way it should be used. Neither spray collars or e collars are supposed to work without training. They are a training aid and used correctly have every chance of working very quickly. Keep up the good work and let us know how it goes.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Malmum said:


> How do you manage the consistency required when you're not there, when no one is there, when other family members can't be relied upon to carry it through either? Surely intermittent training is bound to fail, give confusion to the dog also. You don't want the dog to stop the behaviour only when you're around, you want them to stop it altogether but without being constantly able to carry training through in the early stages how can you ever manage to make that happen?


How are you able to be consistent when you nor others are present, when family members can't be relied on etc with the spray collar? It's remote controlled?
Unless you are using one that detects the barking and sets itself off, which for me raises even more concerns. Are electronic devises set on detect settings always reliable? What is it malfunctioned? "Detects" barking when the dog just yawns loudly?
Imagine the stress and confusion the poor dog would go through?
I would not be relying on that for consistency at the expense of my poor dog!



> If consistency is the key surely the only way to be consistent is to use an aversive like Fleur is using, something that will carry on the 'training' when we are not able too.


Not so. If anything the aversive is never going to be consistent or anything other than a quick fix, which will eventually subside and a regression will reoccur and/or the behaviour will manifest itself in other ways because as has been said, several times, using the aversive (aside from raising ethical issues with me personally) is not appropriate because it is not being used in consideration of the underlying emotional response behind the behaviour. The barking is just the symptom. The aversive does nothing to change the emotional response to the stimulus.



> In my case I also feel that Bruce thinks he is top dog over the other six. He was here before any of them, very much is a 'kicky and scratchy' marker after he toilets in the garden and will wait for the others to pee to go and cover it, something the other boys aren't interested in doing.


The whole top dog thing is mentioned lots and lots. 
Dominant animals are confident animals, good communicators and evolutionarily (think Darwin), ones that are more likely to reproduce and form an important part of a close, well balanced, family unit. 
Whether dominance is actually relevant in domestic dogs is very questionable since their evolution has been shaped by humans and since, now in our urban environments, much is supplied for them anyway. 
I wouldn't read a dog that covers other dogs pee as dominant. Bit simples. Behaviour is a heck of a lot more complex than that. 



> Why just one dog in a group of six should feel stressed or threatened while being treated exactly the same is something I find difficult to understand. Their environment is identical as is their raising, so why such a huge difference in just one?


1. Their raising is not the same. Different dam and sire. Different breed. Different dog. 
Other reasons:
Genetics, innate, breed specific predispositions for certain behaviours, pre/postnatal stimulation. Socialization. Fear periods. Physiological differences (health issues potentially).



Blitz said:


> Neither spray collars or e collars are supposed to work without training. They are a training aid and used correctly have every chance of working very quickly.


Yes but... WHY? 
Why do they work very quickly?

Because they startle, shock, frighten and 'snap them out of it'. That's why.
And why is the dog barking?
Because he is anxious, stressed, fearful?
Aroused, excited?

If the former, his fears are confirmed; more stressful things happen when the trigger is presented, only he cannot communicate his anxiety like before. MORE stressed.

The latter; what precisely does he learn about proper impulse control and how to control himself with the use of a spray collar? Very little really. Just suppression and you can bet your bottom dollar that in similar situations that produced the aroused response in the first place, the same state of arousal will occur and either the same or different symptomatic problem behaviours will crop up.

Is the collar effective and consistent? Nope.


----------



## Guest (Jul 22, 2013)

Malmum said:


> If consistency is the key surely the only way to be consistent is to use an aversive like Fleur is using, something that will carry on the 'training' when we are not able too.


We do hear this a lot don't we? But in practice, it's a bit different.

For one, punishment and reinforcement don't follow the same rules when it comes to applying them. It is very true that in order for punishment to be effective, the punishment has to happen every single time the behavior does. Otherwise, especially if the behavior is self-rewarding (the dog likes doing it), then you've just put a reinforcement on a variable schedule which actually strengthens behaviors.

Basically - punishment has to be consistent, but reinforcement does not, and in fact reinforcement works best when it's not consistent.

Considering the possibility of malfunction and the human element, consistency is a pipe dream really. I mean if we can't get nuclear clocks to be right all the time, what hope is there for a dog collar?  Now, a rewards based system doesn't have to be consistent and will in fact work better if it's not.

The other problem with punishment is that you really should only have to apply it 2 or 3 times. Anything more than that, you risk habituation, predictability and the punishment no longer works.

Dogs will habituate (get used to) punishment, and over time, the punishment will loose power to the dog. Reinforcement doesn't have this issue at all. Most dogs continue to bounce up and down at the clank of a food dish well in to old age, same with the rattle of leashes.

Predictability also makes punishment lose it's power. Steve White's rules of punishment say that for punishment to work well it has to be unexpected. If the dog knows what's coming, he might decide "eh, it's worth it", or learn to avoid the punishment. Dogs are way smarter than we give them credit for, a LOT of dogs learn to do things like drain the batteries on a collar or to bark while tilting their head... All sorts of ways to avoid the aversive they know is coming.



Malmum said:


> If these collars are so ineffective why did a trainer like Victoria Stilwell use one to stop a dog chasing ducks? She is a renowned PR trainer who herself admitted that sometimes you need an aversive when all else fails and it worked with that dog even after it was no longer being used, after a six month follow up visit, it ignored the ducks as if they weren't there. If they are so prone to failure would she have really considered using it?


It's not that the collars are ineffective. They do often work, and they work well to stop that particular behavior. Where they don't work is to address the emotional state causing the behavior, and without addressing the emotion behind the behavior, you risk the suppressed behavior resurfacing - often worse than it was before, or another behavior surfacing to take the place of the barking.

Then of course there is the whole issue of suppression itself. Our dogs are family dogs and we have high expectations for them in a busy household with many children and their parents in and out and lots of busy events away from home. I need every last one of their signals to be intact so that I can make good choices for them, and they in turn, can trust me to "listen" to what they're saying. That's what makes for a tolerant, trusting dog. Not suppressing their behaviors so you never really know exactly what's going on.

I don't watch much TV, but I do know that Victoria Stilwell is first an actress, not a dog trainer  I'm sure she's a lovely lady but I do find it awfully hypocritical that she would chastise one set of owners for having an e-collar but hand a different set of owners a spray collar 

In any case, I didn't see the episode with the ducks, but if the dog was chasing ducks in prey drive that's a game change right there. 
Prey drive is a whole different ball game. Many people who would otherwise be against using aversives will judiciously apply them for prey drive. And while it's true that you risk less fall-out using punishment with prey drive, I personally wouldn't. I think there are more effective, less confusing ways to handle instinctive drives, and lucky me, I end up with the kind of dog who would laugh at the spray collar, and use the citronella as seasoning for their duck dinner.


----------



## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Some really great advice on here from lemmsy and equally great insight from Ouesi 

Can you both come and help me please 

We reluctantly tried one on our old boy, he had terrible SA we didn't know how to work on it then but the neighbour was persistent in his complaints which was fair enough, my Mum actually bought it and insisted we try it, which again was fair enough as it was her who looked after him for us if I needed to be out the house for longer than a couple of hours, I used it on him once against both of our better judgement. It didn't work he howled instead which didn't trigger the spray. The critical point to be gleaned was that it absolutely didn't change his emotional state, he still hated being left 

Also a colleague of my husband uses dogs for work, so has a lot, he kept them at his home, new neighbors began to complain and he was under threat to remove them all. The worst culprit was surprise, surprise, his ratting terrier, he tried a collar, I dont believe it was a shock collar but it had a battery operation, he left it on the dog unattended, to come back and find it had burnt the dogs neck. The dog had not stopped barking and the repeated operation had caused over heating.

Just wanted to add these couple of anecdotes for others reading, to show they are not necessarily the all encompassing last minute cure they are often lauded as being.

It is clear that Fleur wouldn't have resorted to this if she felt she had the back up or other options available, it is a real shame, but at least you do seem to be realistic and using it in the best way possible.


----------



## helenthemum (Jan 25, 2009)

OP I have a similar problem with my 10 mth highly reactive BC.

He will chase and bark at everything in the garden, we have to be careful in the house if he starts up as he can get aggressive with it. I am taking him to training classes for reactive dogs.

I also have the problem that I can't be outside with him all the time due to teenage children and running a shop beside my house. These things also mean he is only ever left for short periods of time whilst I work, I even pop in to play and train him during working hours and put him outside. I know everyone says be consistent, but in reality its not that simple. 

I took him out into the garden on a lead for a couple of days and watched him, every time he looked like he was going to react and bark I used a clicker and treated him. I have now got to the stage where I can put him out, leave him for a couple of mins, go back outside and click and treat before he reacts. I even throw the treat near him to give him something else to do. Lots of things have failed for me in the past as he always wises up to them and will start ignoring any training method I have used in the past. I still have a problem where he won't come in when called, again everything works for a week!

Good luck with the collar and well done you on trying to help your dog.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

I thought of this thread last night.

Since it is STILL proper summer, I was sitting in my garden swing, reading a book and slurping ice cream. All very enjoyable. The only fly in the largely blissful ointment was .....the constant barking of a dog. Not in my immediate vicinity, but loud and close enough to be intrusive.

It was 18 27 when I first thought " Blimey, that dog has been barking for a while".

It was 22 15 when I went inside - after it was dark - and that dog was STILL barking.

I know who the dog belongs to. Its a BC who lives at a farm about 1/2 mile from here. It barks EVERY Sunday for hours non-stop ( but luckily ONLY on a Sunday; I presume the owners go out and put the dog in an outside run).

What the owners are likely not aware of.....sound travels.

And for quite a distance.

A barking dog isn't just a PITA if you live right next door to it - its radiance of nuissance extends FAR beyond that.

Now, I love dogs. Actually, I was far more p****d at the owners letting that poor creature bark until its vocal cords must have been inflamed than the dog itself. Even though the constant noise WAS really annoying.

But a whole lot of people DON'T love dogs and hearing "woof, wooof, WOOOF, woof" for hours upon hours is only going to make them hate them even more. Which is why people who let their dogs bark don't just do a disservice to their own dog, their own neighbours, but to ALL dogs. Which is dumb, inconsiderate and selfish in equal measure.

I seriously doubt that that farmer, any farmer, would entertain a convoluted, lengthy B-mod program for his barking BC. I doubt that he would even try a mild aversive as a water vapour anti-bark collar. Chances are that when he will get a letter of complaint from the council - and he will,albeit not as a result from me complaining - that dog will either get the walloping of a life time or simply get "disposed of". 

Not really sure where I am going with this. Other than to say : any mildly aversive method which stops a dog from barking is bound to be better than being beaten or killed. MUCH better. People should not get flack for it. They should be praised for doing SOMETHING constructive. Because sound really does travel. And barking is annoying. Very.


----------



## Guest (Jul 22, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I seriously doubt that that farmer, any farmer, would entertain a convoluted, lengthy B-mod program for his barking BC. I doubt that he would even try a mild aversive as a water vapour anti-bark collar. Chances are that when he will get a letter of complaint from the council - and he will,albeit not as a result from me complaining - that dog will either get the walloping of a life time or simply get "disposed of".
> 
> Not really sure where I am going with this. Other than to say : any mildly aversive method which stops a dog from barking is bound to be better than being beaten or killed. MUCH better. People should not get flack for it. They should be praised for doing SOMETHING constructive. Because sound really does travel. And barking is annoying. Very.


Oh my dear goodness where to start...

Okay, you start with a faulty premise that no farmer would entertain b-mod for their dog. Actually, even before then we have to go off the premise that b-mod is convoluted. None of which is true. For one, plenty of farmers share information and network and through that process learn of innovations in animal husbandry including ways of training their dogs. Second of all, any trainer worth their salt knows that any instructions given to owners have to be clear and easy to follow, so the whole "convoluted b-mod" argument is also flawed.

But for argument's sake, let's accept that "no farmer would entertain b-mod for their dog". From here, you make an olympic leap to the conclusion that they would beat or kill the dog instead. Seriously? 
There are many other options you're completely leaving out. If the dog is in, let him out, if the dog is out, let him in. Leave another dog with the barking dog. Give the dog a marrow bone to work on while you're gone. Bring the dog with you... On and on.

Compulsion trainers often cling to the "either aversive or death" argument, and honestly, scenario after scenario, I've yet to be convinced.

No, I don't think a spray collar is the end of the world for an otherwise resilient, well adjusted, well cared for dog. I just don't think it's the only option and I certainly would not consider it the best option for all the reasons already stated.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Oh my dear goodness where to start...
> 
> Okay, you start with a faulty premise that no farmer would entertain b-mod for their dog.
> There are many other options you're completely leaving out. If the dog is in, let him out, if the dog is out, let him in. Leave another dog with the barking dog. Give the dog a marrow bone to work on while you're gone. Bring the dog with you... On and on.
> ...


Ouesi, lets call it a truce, shall we?

THIS was not a pro vs. con of behaviour modification.

I have no idea where in the world you live and maybe your average farmers go all out in enlightened training methods. I seriously doubt it, but do I KNOW? No.

I live in Devon, next to Dartmoor National Park, and I can tell you with as much certainty as that water is wet that our farmers DON'T train their dogs via clickers, and whatnot. They don't give a hoot about the dog's "emotional state" , "relative level of arousal" and how it "feels".

Reward, if the dog is lucky, is a "good boy".....or simply escaping a severe physical reprimand or a brick thrown at them full force. THAT is reality. Not even just for farm dogs.

The point of my prior message was

1) that anybody doing their best - like Fleur - to keep any aversive/punishment/reprimand for barking as humane and benign as possible should be applauded.

2) that prolonged barking is devilishly annoying and can affect people much farther away than the owner thinks possible. See " sound travels"

3) that endless posts eschewing the merits of b- mod likely not reach the people who wouldn't undertake them anyway, and that constant covert reprimands of people resorting to mild aversives are, frankly, risible.

I say this as someone who holds a Bachelor or Science in experimental Psychology, with Honours, official wax seal from the University and the whole kitncaboodle...and I can tell you with conviction that the vast majority of things which are touted as the ultimate "scientific truth" in Behaviourism, certainly in regards to dog training are pompous sh**e, purely speculative and utter tosh. Still, as long as it makes the person FEEL they know something when using turgid language usually reserved for academic written communication..it's all good. Their own dog ususally still barks uncontrollably, but whatever. They are working on his emotional state.


----------



## Guest (Jul 22, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Ouesi, lets call it a truce, shall we?


I wasn't fighting to begin with.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> THIS was not a pro vs. con of behaviour modification.
> 
> I have no idea where in the world you live and maybe your average farmers go all out in enlightened training methods. I seriously doubt it, but do I KNOW? No.
> 
> ...


If you are surrounded by farmers that you KNOW employ severe physical reprimands and throw bricks at their dogs I would hope that are reporting these actions as the abuse that they are. Otherwise you are speculating.
I know farmers, personally, and while they may not view their dogs as pet owners do, they certainly do value and care very much for them. 
None of the options I gave had anything to do with how the dog feels, simple containment and management, no fancy schmancy training and no dead dog.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> 3) that endless posts eschewing the merits of b- mod likely not reach the people who wouldn't undertake them anyway, and that constant covert reprimands of people resorting to mild aversives are, frankly, risible.


I am not attempting to convert anyone, and I most definitely haven't reprimanded anyone 
All I'm doing is sharing my opinions based on my knowledge and my experience, isn't that the point of a discussion forum?



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I say this as someone who holds a Bachelor or Science in experimental Psychology, with Honours, official wax seal from the University and the whole kitncaboodle...and I can tell you with conviction that the vast majority of things which are touted as the ultimate "scientific truth" in Behaviourism, certainly in regards to dog training are pompous sh**e, purely speculative and utter tosh. Still, as long as it makes the person FEEL they know something when using turgid language usually reserved for academic written communication..it's all good. Their own dog ususally still barks uncontrollably, but whatever. They are working on his emotional state.


Oh my, quite the resume 
Despite your very learned opinion, I think you will find that there is nothing speculative, pompous, shitty, or tosh about the information I have shared.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I've not read the whole thread but I can certainly empathize with your problem. My Yorkshire Terrier is the same - she barks at EVERYTHING and is much worse in the spring/summer when all the windows and doors are open. She is reactive visually (other dogs) but mainly due to noise. Her triggers include barking dogs (this is a big one), doors opening/closing, people walking past, the sound of other animals, any beeping noise, any jingling noise, any bang....pretty much anything.

It is incredibly irritating.


----------



## Hayley22 (May 12, 2013)

Ive used a spray collor on a dog before, and it worked extremely well. Always a last resort in my eyes but it can work for some dogs very well.


----------



## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I know the majority won't agree with using it -


Thats an interesting comment. That would mean anyone who did not use one would face a) a criminal prosecution (noise abatement act) b) a criminal record c) up to £5000 fine d) any separate incidents are seperate charges for each offence e) IF the owner/member of the forum (as suggested) ran out of money & could no longer pay the fines they would have to go to jail instead.

I have a question, who would look after the dog if the owner was in jail?

Manufacturs video of Masterplus Training collar (This is not the anti bark collar, same principle, different behaviour problem)

Roger Mugford, Dogs Trust Approved Fear Trainer. The Masterplus - YouTube
.


----------



## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> and I can tell you with conviction that the vast majority of things which are touted as the ultimate "scientific truth" in Behaviourism, certainly in regards to dog training are pompous *sh**e, purely speculative and utter tosh.*


How true, in fact in (1) Skinners primary 1938 book, which launched his theory, the 'word' reward does not have one single occurence that I have found, "reinforcer" is the most prominant word of all words throughout that primary source of operant learning theory, many, many thousands of repeats of "reinforcement".

Ref
1. B F Skinner, The Behavior of Organisms, 1938, 1953.


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Just thought I'd give you a little update.
Zipper still wears his collar - he appears more relaxed, if the dogs over the back are kicking off instead of joining in and getting himself wound up he stays stretched out on the sofa snoozing 
He is interested when cats go by the front or back of the house and when he's not wearing his collar he still barks (but not as much) when he is wearing his collar he watches them silently and comes away quickly to go back to what ever he was doing.
He does know when he's wearing it and when he's not so although he doesn't bark as much or as intently as he used to when not wearing it he does know he can still bark - but it's still early days.
When I am there with him he gets lots of good boys, fuss and sometimes treats for remaining calm when his normal triggers are going off around him.

I did decide to use it as what I felt was a last resort - I wouldn't use one on Lilly as she is a different tempermant.
I think if someone is going to use a scentless vapour spray collar they need to think long and hard about what outcome they expect, their dogs personality and how they plan to implement any training and reward wanted behaviours.

So for my family and Zipper it seems to be working - it's not a miracle cure and I know there is a lot more work to be done - I'll update again in another few weeks or so.


----------



## kam200 (Sep 3, 2009)

I've been watching this thread with interest..zippers temperament sounds alot like my lhasa apso Poppy. She's very highly strung and her barking can be incessant sometimes. She gets herself so wound up and the problem with us is trying to get her to calm down and not be so affected with triggers.
Glad it seems to be working well for you and your family.
Kayleigh x


----------

