# Ethical breeding



## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

My Cat had kittens. 
She was a house cat and she got out before I got round to getting her spayed. 

I'm well aware that this is far from what would be described as responsible or ethical breeding. It was purely accidental and I wouldn't want to repeat this. 

I have researched a great deal since discovering that my beloved cat was pregnant. I wanted to make sure that everything I did ensutlred that the kittens had the very best start on life and that the experience was positive for the mother cat. Much of what I have read talks about the ethics of breeding and there is a strong emphasis on only breeding pedigree cats. 

I have emensly enjoyed the experience of helping raise these kittens. They are absolutely beautiful. I have found new homes for them all, but I know it will break my heart when they all have to leave.

I have found this such an amazing experience that I would like in the future to breed pedigree cats. I don't want a kitten machine, but maybe to buy an active pedigree cat as a family pet and breed her a couple of times before retiring her, possibly retaining a female kitten to continue the line. I know I have a lot of research to do before I start. My first step is to get my gorgeous cat spayed. 

Really I want to know how people view the ethics of breeding cats. Why is breeding pedigree cats seen as more ethical than breeding non pedegree? I get the point about there being lots of cats in shelters that need homes, but surely pedigree cats impact upon these cats finding new homes just as much as non pedegree?

Is it possible to breed no pedigree cats for health and beauty in order to produce desirable, high quality pets that will make good companions to humans? I'm well aware that many cats in shelters do not get on well with humans. Of course this may well be as a direct result of the mistreatment they have suffered at the hands of humans, but sadly this doesn't make for suitable family pets.

Can I ask the breeders of pedigree cats what is your motivation for breeding? Is it because you show cats and the ones you sell as pets are not up to show standard?

How frequently do you feel it is acceptable to breed a queen? My guess is once per year maximum. I have read that GCCF state no more than 3 litters in 2 years, but does not state how far apart litters should be. I imagine that like human pregnancies, queen's need and adequate gap to recover their condition fully following a pregnancy?

What conditions do breeders keep their cats in? I'm guessing that this will vary from breeder to breeder, but do you allow your cats to roam the house as you would any other family pet?

How many Queens do you keep? Do you only sell cats as inactive or do you also sell on the active register? How do you decide who to sell active Queens to?

How do you ensure that your cats all have fulfilling lives? Do you keep your cats caged?

Please feel free to cherry pick which questions to answer. I'm still very much at the research stage, but all thoughts and advice are welcome. 

If I do go ahead and do this I want to make sure I do so in a way that is most beneficial for all involved.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Perhaps you could just foster for a rescue. You'll find no end of pregnant cats needing fostering, and will start to understand the "ethics" of not breeding your family pet.

Hopefully you have spayed your cat now, and the kittens were all neutered before they left for homes..


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

lorilu said:


> Perhaps you could just foster for a rescue. You'll find no end of pregnant cats needing fostering, and will start to understand the "ethics" of not breeding your family pet.
> 
> Hopefully you have spayed your cat now, and the kittens were all neutered before they left for homes..


I have given a lot of consideration to fostering pregnant cats. My main concern with this is that you are introducing a complete unknown variable into your family home. It may not be suitable to have a fostered cat around my children or my other pets. I purposely bought my two cats from a private seller rather than a shelter as I wanted to ensure that I had cats that were well socialised and used to a family environment. My mum had a cat from a shelter who was very aggressive towards people. That to me is not a pet. I guess it's similar to the debate about adopting children or having your own. There are thousands of children who are in need of loving homes, but those children present their own unique challenges that some people may find too much. I believe adopting and fostering children is an incredibly worthy thing to do, but it wouldn't be something I personally could do. The same goes for cats from a shelter. The whole point of having any family pet is that they add something to your family dynamic. If you effectively have a cat that can't be touched etc (obviously through no fault of its own) then sadly it will not add anything positive to the household.

Many people want a family pet that they can adore and cuddle, stroke. If you're lucky you may get a kitten from a shelter that is able to adapt and become part of the family.

I have no plans to allow my cat to have any more kittens. She is still currently nursing her kittens so she has not yet been spayed, but I will have her done once the kittens have been rehomed. I won't be having the kittens neutered, that's up to their new owners to sort out, although I will be passing on my own cautionary tale.

I do hope to breed pedigree cats in the future, but want to know the best way of doing so in order to ensure that the cats are healthy. Inbreeding amongst pedigree cats is a concern. How do you ensure that the pedigree cat you buy has not been inbred? I've read that GCCF will accept daughter to father matings, to me that's


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

If you want to breed ethically, I suggest you start with your current litter and get them neutered and fully vaccinated before sending them to new homes. No pedigree breeder worth anything will allow you to have one of their kittens for breeding if you can't even be responsible for this litter. 

Ethical pedigree breeders but the wellbeing of their cats before anything else. No ethical breeder uses their cat as a breeding machine and to suggest otherwise is pretty offensive.

Inbreeding is monitored by understanding inbreeding coefficient, which your mentor should teach you. Inbreeding in pedigrees is not common or acceptable, and father to daughter matings can only be registered as non-active in any registry.


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> If you want to breed ethically, I suggest you start with your current litter and get them neutered and fully vaccinated before sending them to new homes. No pedigree breeder worth anything will allow you to have one of their kittens for breeding if you can't even be responsible for this litter.
> 
> Ethical pedigree breeders but the wellbeing of their cats before anything else. No ethical breeder uses their cat as a breeding machine and to suggest otherwise is pretty offensive.
> 
> Inbreeding is monitored by understanding inbreeding coefficient, which your mentor should teach you. Inbreeding in pedigrees is not common or acceptable, and father to daughter matings can only be registered as non-active in any registry.


Is it normal practice for breeders to have their cats neutered prior to rehoming? Of all the adverts I have seen, including those for registered pedigree cats, only a coupe have stated that the kittens would be neutered. Maybe 4 said they would be vaccinated. When I enquired to one registered breeder about vaccines he told me that it is not normal practice to vaccinate kittens prior to rehoming as the stress of a new environment on top of the stress of vaccines can be extremely dangerous for the kitten. I have read that it is OK to rehome a non pegigree kitten at 8 weeks, is this not the case? I did wonder why on earth the age of rehoming a pedigree and non pedigree cat should be any different. I would have imagined that their development is largely similar regardless of the pedigree status. Funnily the registered breeder in question was happy to let a kitten go at 10 weeks, this rang some alarm bells for me.

I understand how a lot of breeders are very keen to ensure that pets are neutered, this is certainly a conversation I will be having with the new owners, but I don't know of anyone who would cover this cost or put the animal through such an invasive procedure at such a young age. There are only 2 girls so it's much easier for boys to have the op.

Do you find a vet who will discount for neutering a full litter? Are the vets happy to neuter so early? What happens about giving the cat some recovery time before you rehome it? Surely they're better getting to know their new family and feeling settled prior to such a procedure?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Melissa3236 said:


> Is it normal practice for breeders to have their cats neutered prior to rehoming? Of all the adverts I have seen, including those for registered pedigree cats, only a coupe have stated that the kittens would be neutered. Maybe 4 said they would be vaccinated.
> When I enquired to one registered breeder about vaccines he told me that it is not normal practice to vaccinate kittens prior to rehoming as the stress of a new environment on top of the stress of vaccines can be extremely dangerous for the kitten.
> I have read that it is OK to rehome a non pegigree kitten at 8 weeks, is this not the case? I did wonder why on earth the age of rehoming a pedigree and non pedigree cat should be any different. I would have imagined that their development is largely similar regardless of the pedigree status. Funnily the registered breeder in question was happy to let a kitten go at 10 weeks, this rang some alarm bells for me.
> I understand how a lot of breeders are very keen to ensure that pets are neutered, this is certainly a conversation I will be having with the new owners, but I don't know of anyone who would cover this cost or put the animal through such an invasive procedure at such a young age. There are only 2 girls so it's much easier for boys to have the op.
> ...


I've taken the liberty of putting numbers in your post so I can answer point by point.

It is much more so in some other countries, where most vets will happily spay & castrate at 14 weeks or thereabouts. 
If you see an advert for a 'registered pedigree kitten' in the UK the kitten should be fully vaccinated with the second vaccination at least a week before he or she leaves. That's the rules for kittens registered with GCCF, I have no idea about other registries.
The reason non-pedigree kittens tend to go earlier is ignorance on the part of BYBs, and the desperate need for room for another set if kittens in the case of rescues.
Don't worry about a young female getting spayed, my experience has been they recover far better than adult cats.
Yes, some vets will discount, but remember it's perfectly reasonable to charge the cost of neutering, vaccinating, worming & flea control to the new owner. My previous vet gave me a discount on a neuter / vaccinate / microchip package.
Far too many vets in the UK are stuck in the '6 months old' frame of mind. You might have to look around for one that will do kittens younger. A vet who does the vet work for a rescue often will, and if the rescue deals with ferals they will have experience of neutering both sexes at 8 weeks or so.
No, there is no need for them to be in their new families first. In my experience the recovery time for boys is often as little as a few hours, for girls a day or two. And think about it - *had your cat been spayed before you got her you wouldn't be having to ask these questions*.


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

OrientalSlave said:


> I've taken the liberty of putting numbers in your post so I can answer point by point.
> 
> It is much more so in some other countries, where most vets will happily spay & castrate at 14 weeks or thereabouts.
> If you see an advert for a 'registered pedigree kitten' in the UK the kitten should be fully vaccinated with the second vaccination at least a week before he or she leaves. That's the rules for kittens registered with GCCF, I have no idea about other registries.
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to reply. It was very helpful.

The breeder who was happy to sell a non vaccinated kitten at 10 weeks was GCCF registratered. Should he be reported?


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

Melissa3236 said:


> Thank you for taking the time to reply. It was very helpful.
> 
> The breeder who was happy to sell a non vaccinated kitten at 10 weeks was GCCF registratered. Should he be reported?


That should say registered, typo.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Buying an active registered queen is the first hurdle and you need to show a breeder your commitment towards that particular breed before a breeder will consider you as suitable. Often this means showing a neuter of that breed and understanding the standard of the breed. There are some breeders who are prepared to sell on the active register to pretty much anyone with few or no questions asked but I would be very wary of someone like that - to my mind that is not ethical breeding.
Start with a single queen. Don't rush into having several girls and a stud boy (far more difficult to buy an active stud too) One litter a year - I aim for 11 to 12 months between litters but it isn't always possible and you need to balance the risks of breeding with the risk of a queen calling too often and developing pyometra. I retire my girls by the age of about 4 - but again not a hard and fast decision.
Inbreeding can be worked out - there are several computer programmes available that will do so - but your mentor (the breeder of your queen usually) and stud owner should be able to help too.
My kittens are brought up in the home, never caged. 
I don't neuter kittens before they leave - I don't have a vet willing to neuter below the weight of 2kg, which mine, Siamese, aren't but there are vets out there who will do it and as far as I am aware there are no detrimental effects on the kittens. In fact they seem to recover much quicker. I do however have a contract with buyers that they will have their kitten neutered, I give them a slip for their vet to sign to say that it has been done and will follow up if it isn't returned by a certain time.
Why do I breed? My aim is to keep the old style Siamese lines going as much as I can. While my cats are rarely show quality - judges are looking for a slightly different look these days - they seem to be what buyers are looking for when they ask if my cats are like the Siamese they recall from their childhood.
Breeding is not for the fainthearted. It is not always a litter of sweet kittens, it can be a mum that rejects her babies, a mum that needs a c.section (and often in the middle of the night or a weekend bumping up the cost) it can be babies that get sick for a variety of reasons and nothing can prepare you for the heartache of losing them when you fight so hard to keep them alive.
Having a litter from your cat now is not a good reason to want to go into breeding, I'm sorry to say but all breeders have had to start somewhere. Just think very carefully about it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Melissa3236 said:


> Thank you for taking the time to reply. It was very helpful.
> 
> The breeder who was happy to sell a non vaccinated kitten at 10 weeks was GCCF registratered. Should he be reported?


Of course they might have been telling porkies about registering their kittens... Or then going to ask extra for papers, or provide just a pedigree filched from other breeders.

Was he selling a registered kitten? Some breeders don't register all their kittens. Of course I doubt those that indulge in that dodgy practise also don't give you the paperwork they should so you can register it yourself.

And if it is registered with the GCCF, yes, it should be fully vaccinated which with a week after the second vaccination means it will be at least 13 weeks old.

https://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/GCCF Code of Ethics 2018_0221.pdf?ver=2018-03-05-144217-380


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Melissa3236 said:


> I have found this such an amazing experience that_ I would like in the future to breed pedigree cats_.


Don't. Just enjoying kittens is a dreadful reason to try to get into breeding pedigree cats

If you want the pleasure of kittens, foster for a reputable organisation such as Cats Protection. They pay for the food, litter & vets as well.


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

lymorelynn said:


> Buying an active registered queen is the first hurdle and you need to show a breeder your commitment towards that particular breed before a breeder will consider you as suitable. Often this means showing a neuter of that breed and understanding the standard of the breed. There are some breeders who are prepared to sell on the active register to pretty much anyone with few or no questions asked but I would be very wary of someone like that - to my mind that is not ethical breeding.
> Start with a single queen. Don't rush into having several girls and a stud boy (far more difficult to buy an active stud too) One litter a year - I aim for 11 to 12 months between litters but it isn't always possible and you need to balance the risks of breeding with the risk of a queen calling too often and developing pyometra. I retire my girls by the age of about 4 - but again not a hard and fast decision.
> Inbreeding can be worked out - there are several computer programmes available that will do so - but your mentor (the breeder of your queen usually) and stud owner should be able to help too.
> My kittens are brought up in the home, never caged.
> ...


Thank you. That's really helpful.

I've not made my mind up either way, but it is something I want to do more research in to.


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

OrientalSlave said:


> Don't. Just enjoying kittens is a dreadful reason to try to get into breeding pedigree cats
> 
> If you want the pleasure of kittens, foster for a reputable organisation such as Cats Protection. They pay for the food, litter & vets as well.


I appreciate you taking the time to reply..

Could I ask how you got in to breeding kittens? I've seen that you're very active on this forum and you're clearly really passionate about what you do. What would you say are the most positive and negative aspects? What attracted you to breeding as opposed to fostering? Was it the possibility of developing cats to a high standard or something else?


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

OrientalSlave said:


> Of course they might have been telling porkies about registering their kittens... Or then going to ask extra for papers, or provide just a pedigree filched from other breeders.
> 
> Was he selling a registered kitten? Some breeders don't register all their kittens. Of course I doubt those that indulge in that dodgy practise also don't give you the paperwork they should so you can register it yourself.
> 
> ...


Wow. That really helpful.

The breeder in question was GCCF registratered as an active breeder and had paperwork to show this (I wouldn't know how to verify this paperwork as real tbh).

He was offering for sale a non active registered female at 10 weeks. He kept the kittens upstairs. He brought a kitten down to meet us along with another, slightly bigger cat that he claimed was the mother. He said that the father was unavailable to see as it belonged to his friend. The kitten was beautiful, but clearly petrified and I suspect unsocialised. He put the kitten on my knee and said she was stressed because she hadn't been downstairs before. He wanted quite a lot less than the market value for the kitten. I had considered getting a non active female just to get a feel for the breed and to gain a really good understanding before taking things any further. In the end something just didn't feel right so we made our excuses.

I actually raised the question of vaccines and he said that it was a bad idea to vaccinate prior to rehoming due to the stress. He said he had lost a cat following a booster and the vaccinating when a cat is under stress is very dangerous.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Melissa3236 said:


> Wow. That really helpful.
> 
> The breeder in question was GCCF registratered as an active breeder and had paperwork to show this (I wouldn't know how to verify this paperwork as real tbh).
> 
> ...


The breeder in question _might_ have a registered prefix. His female _might _be on the active register. You can check both. Find out the prefix and check on the gccf website for registered prefixes. Ask to see the queen's registration certificate which will clearly state active or not. There is a sticky at the top of the catchat page with details of what the registration certificate should look like. If both things are true then he should not be selling any registered kitten under the age of 13 weeks (vaccinations at 9 and 12 and kittens kept for one week minimum after that) Kittens must be vaccinated before leaving for their new homes. You were right to walk away.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Melissa3236 said:


> Is it normal practice for breeders to have their cats neutered prior to rehoming?


Yes, it's normal practice for sensible and responsible breeders that have a vet available to do it.



Melissa3236 said:


> Of all the adverts I have seen, including those for registered pedigree cats, only a coupe have stated that the kittens would be neutered.


If you are looking at adverts then you're looking in the wrong place. There are very few ethical breeders that will put out adverts. Most of the adverts you have seen will probably be for fake pedigree kittens aka mogs



Melissa3236 said:


> Maybe 4 said they would be vaccinated.


Then they aren't ethical breeders, kittens should be vaccinated before leaving their breeder



Melissa3236 said:


> When I enquired to one registered breeder about vaccines he told me that it is not normal practice to vaccinate kittens prior to rehoming as the stress of a new environment on top of the stress of vaccines can be extremely dangerous for the kitten.


He's talking through his backside and is trying to push kittens and their high costs off to the owners as quickly as possible.



Melissa3236 said:


> I have read that it is OK to rehome a non pegigree kitten at 8 weeks, is this not the case? I did wonder why on earth the age of rehoming a pedigree and non pedigree cat should be any different. I would have imagined that their development is largely similar regardless of the pedigree status.


It's not ok to rehome any kitten, pedigree or otherwise, before 13 weeks. Not only do they need their vaccines and neutering done, weeks 8-13 are crucial kitten socialisation time.



Melissa3236 said:


> I don't know of anyone who would cover this cost or put the animal through such an invasive procedure at such a young age. There are only 2 girls so it's much easier for boys to have the op.


It's a perfectly safe procedure, with no ill effects at all



Melissa3236 said:


> Do you find a vet who will discount for neutering a full litter?


Some vets will do a breeder discount but many won't, that includes vaccines. That's part of the cost a breeder accepts they take on



Melissa3236 said:


> Are the vets happy to neuter so early?


Yes, many vets are happy to neuter and even more vets are realising that the previous idea of 6 months is outdated and impractical



Melissa3236 said:


> What happens about giving the cat some recovery time before you rehome it?


Kittens need very little time to bounce back. Breeders either neuter between vaccines or neuter at 12 weeks, rehoming at 13-14 weeks



Melissa3236 said:


> Surely they're better getting to know their new family and feeling settled prior to such a procedure?


Kittens are better staying with their litter mates and mum until they are appropriately socialised, weaned, vaccinated and neutered. Safety and health comes far above human whim


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> Yes, it's normal practice for sensible and responsible breeders that have a vet available to do it.
> 
> If you are looking at adverts then you're looking in the wrong place. There are very few ethical breeders that will put out adverts. Most of the adverts you have seen will probably be for fake pedigree kittens aka mogs
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. It's very helpful and very much appreciated. It's a learning curve.

I accept I dropped a huge ball so to speak by not getting my cat neutered, but I want to learn how to do things properly and all advice is appreciated.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Melissa3236 said:


> I have found this such an amazing experience that I would like in the future to breed pedigree cats.


Yes it can be amazing, but don't be fooled. Birth is a dangerous time for any animal, and the offspring are vulnerable. Cats produce large litters because nature expects most to die and believe me, despite all your care some will die. 5 - 10% is often quoted in a pedigree breeding situation. How will you deal with this, how will your children deal with it?


Melissa3236 said:


> Really I want to know how people view the ethics of breeding cats. Why is breeding pedigree cats seen as more ethical than breeding non pedegree? I get the point about there being lots of cats in shelters that need homes, but surely pedigree cats impact upon these cats finding new homes just as much as non pedegree?


Pedigree cats equate to less than 10% of the feline population in the UK, the breeding population of pedigrees is considerably smaller as only very specific cats are chosen for breeding. It is extremely rare to find a pedigree cat in a rescue centre. A person who just wants a pet cat will get a moggy, pedigrees are usually owned by those who like a specific character trait the breed possesses and often have had the breed for years and won't have anything else. 


Melissa3236 said:


> Is it possible to breed no pedigree cats for health and beauty in order to produce desirable, high quality pets that will make good companions to humans?


In order to produce healthy, well made cats of any variety takes a lot of time and a lot of money. You could breed non peds to the same standard as a pedigree breeder, but they will never be desirable when a pet person wanting a moggy can pick a kitten up from rescue or the paper for what is really very little money. 


Melissa3236 said:


> Can I ask the breeders of pedigree cats what is your motivation for breeding? Is it because you show cats and the ones you sell as pets are not up to show standard?


Health, type, health, temperament ... did I mention health?? I show so always hope to get a show standard kitten, but the reality is that they are frustratingly difficult to get (some breeds are particularly difficult) and the super top show standard ones may only appear once in a breeders time. 


Melissa3236 said:


> How frequently do you feel it is acceptable to breed a queen? My guess is once per year maximum. I have read that GCCF state no more than 3 litters in 2 years, but does not state how far apart litters should be. I imagine that like human pregnancies, queen's need and adequate gap to recover their condition fully following a pregnancy?


Once a year tends to be the accepted timeframe. The 3 liters in 2 years gives some leeway for those queens who are so vigorous that forcing them to hold off for too long can damage their health. As far as I am aware, all the registries in the UK have a set timeframe and I know that at least one refuses to register any litters conceived within this limit. 


Melissa3236 said:


> What conditions do breeders keep their cats in? I'm guessing that this will vary from breeder to breeder, but do you allow your cats to roam the house as you would any other family pet?


Every breeder I know has their cats in the house as pets. The only exception being the stud cats. 


Melissa3236 said:


> How many Queens do you keep? Do you only sell cats as inactive or do you also sell on the active register? How do you decide who to sell active Queens to?


I started with 1 and only had 1 for about three years until I kept a daughter of the first. I stuck with just 2 for a few more years until I decided I was ready to keep a stud. I have occasionally sold a queen on the active register to other experienced breeders, but then I've been doing this for decades. Selling breeding cats is not something a novice breeder has any business in doing.


Melissa3236 said:


> How do you ensure that your cats all have fulfilling lives? Do you keep your cats caged?


They won't have fulfilling lives stuck in a cage. Toys on rotation keep paws and minds busy. Climbing frames provide further play opportunities, plus fill the all important need to sharpen claws. They make good lookout posts and safe areas for snoozing too.

Something most would-be-breeders are totally unaware of is the fact that if you breed, your house will get trashed. Kittens climb everything, you, the curtains, the TV, the sofa; they chew all of those items too! Queens pee everywhere when they are calling, your bed, the kids beds, the sofa, the carpet. They scream for days on end too, nearly always at night! Tomcats will come to your house and spray up your front door and windows in response. Kittens nearly always come at night and you must be there to see them safely in.

Yes breeding cats can be wonderful, but it will always be tinged with sorrow and heartbreak.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Melissa3236 said:


> Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. It's very helpful and very much appreciated. It's a learning curve.
> 
> I accept I dropped a huge ball so to speak by not getting my cat neutered, but I want to learn how to do things properly and all advice is appreciated.


I'm afraid you're not going to be received well on this forum, or indeed by breeders, without neutering your kittens before going to new homes. We all advocate early neutering in the breeding section, as we've all seen the result of "contracts" (which are not legally binding) that stipulate neutering at 6 months. Most people won't do it, they'll forget, something will come up, their cat will escape, the excuses are endless.

The most responsible thing you can do, in addition to accepting you messed up, is ensuring that the same thing can't happen to these kittens, that these kittens will not contribute to the overpopulation of moggies.


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

Tigermoon said:


> Yes it can be amazing, but don't be fooled. Birth is a dangerous time for any animal, and the offspring are vulnerable. Cats produce large litters because nature expects most to die and believe me, despite all your care some will die. 5 - 10% is often quoted in a pedigree breeding situation. How will you deal with this, how will your children deal with it?
> 
> Pedigree cats equate to less than 10% of the feline population in the UK, the breeding population of pedigrees is considerably smaller as only very specific cats are chosen for breeding. It is extremely rare to find a pedigree cat in a rescue centre. A person who just wants a pet cat will get a moggy, pedigrees are usually owned by those who like a specific character trait the breed possesses and often have had the breed for years and won't have anything else.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to reply. It's really helpful again.

I'm sure this information will be of use for other people considering breeding cats too.


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> I'm afraid you're not going to be received well on this forum, or indeed by breeders, without neutering your kittens before going to new homes. We all advocate early neutering in the breeding section, as we've all seen the result of "contracts" (which are not legally binding) that stipulate neutering at 6 months. Most people won't do it, they'll forget, something will come up, their cat will escape, the excuses are endless.
> 
> The most responsible thing you can do, in addition to accepting you messed up, is ensuring that the same thing can't happen to these kittens, that these kittens will not contribute to the overpopulation of moggies.


I appreciate your thoughts on this and will try to find a vet who is willing to help.


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> I'm afraid you're not going to be received well on this forum, or indeed by breeders, without neutering your kittens before going to new homes. We all advocate early neutering in the breeding section, as we've all seen the result of "contracts" (which are not legally binding) that stipulate neutering at 6 months. Most people won't do it, they'll forget, something will come up, their cat will escape, the excuses are endless.
> 
> The most responsible thing you can do, in addition to accepting you messed up, is ensuring that the same thing can't happen to these kittens, that these kittens will not contribute to the overpopulation of moggies.


I appreciate your thoughts on this and will try to find a vet who will help with this.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Everyone else has concentrated on the actual breeding but what breed are you thinking of? Have you ever owned a pedigree cat that you thought was so unbelievably beautiful, loved the character, looked at others of the breed and seen what makes it what it is? If you seriously want to go in for 'ethical' breeding you need to have a passion for furthering a breed and that means having the knowledge and means to improve it. Are you prepared to travel hundreds of miles to the right stud - twice, once to take your queen and once to pick her up a few days later? Are you happy to do it all again a few weeks later when she isn't pregnant? There's a saying that the way to make a small fortune from breeding is to start with a large one. It's true. It's expensive, time consuming, sometimes heartbreaking and absolutely exhausting. That said it can also be incredibly rewarding. Just be aware it isn't all rainbows and unicorns.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Your home being trashed really isn't too much of an overstatement. I came home at lunchtime today, having left it clean and tidy that morning. There was cat litter on the floor, bits of cardboard everywhere (five kittens decided to destroy a box), marinating in water all over the floor from a tipped up bowl. At 11 weeks, they have apparently just worked out how to reach the worktops - my papers for filing were all over the floor (in the water) and other items knocked onto the floor, some smashed/broken.

My comfy chair in the kitchen - not that old, quite expensive and once beautiful - is full of catches and looks tired and worn.

The kitchen however is bulletproof compared to my downstairs lounge (we TRY to keep another lounge cat free). I'm not going to bore you with the detail but I'm sure you can imagine. I keep it clean and tidy - you're always cleaning when you breed cats - but it isn't how I would otherwise choose my home to look and I do actually find it a little embarrassing when I have visitors. I just hope that my kitten buyers understand that my kittens are more important to me than pristine decor and beautiful soft furnishings.

So you either need lots of money to keep replacing things or have a pretty large house to which kittens aren't allowed access to parts of (but then it isn't ideal, kittens kept away from normal everyday life) or you keep them in kitten pens or shut away in one room.

I think it was Havoc who once said something like "I put up with things I wouldn't expect my kitten buyers to put up with" and that is so true. A kitten or two in a pet home can cause damage, we all know. A few whole litters of five or six every year, year on year, in your home is a lifestyle choice!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Oh so true @gskinner123 
I complained to my husband about having to hoover every day but as he said, I'm only cleaning up after the cats. 
Sofa and curtains in the lounge need replacing but while I'm still breeding that's not going to happen.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@gskinner123 & @lymorelynn I have just bought a new scratcher to place in front of the sofa to discourage the furry terrors from finishing off the destruction to the sofa. 
My poor hoover died when the kittens were 15 & 10 weeks old I was so distraught. Thankfully we had a cordless one to survive the couple of days we were without one.

@Melissa3236 please make sure you have a decent contingency fund if you do want to breed. Blue ended up requiring a c-section which luckily was in hours but was still £900 ish with oxytocin a few hours later. My friends cat requires an emergency c-section in the middle of the night for uterine torsion at the OOH vets which was around £2700. Both are Norwegians which have a low incidental of c-sections. 
Don't get me wrong I love the kittens but it was the most stressful and tired I have been in my life when I was doing 2-hourly half feeds for the kittens after Blues c-section


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## Littlefluffykatts (Oct 5, 2019)

.....


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Littlefluffykatts said:


> I have been involved with cats my whole life. I have dealt with multiple farm kittens. And feral kittens. I have worked for shelters and fostered kittens. I have taken heavily pregnant inbred females to find them better homes and find kittens for there homes. I have also been unfortunate enough to have brought FIV home in my quest for helping feral cats. And ringworm and cat flu and every other nasty bug you can think of. Unfortunately this is the reality for cats and kittens that are bred because of irresponsible owners. Who just have 1 litter.
> 
> However there isn't room for name calling and other people telling you your unethical. Or irresponsible. So please learn from this experience.
> 
> ...


Sadly a contract to neuter is worthless - most contracts are not enforceable in law, and BYBs can be very plausible. The only 100% sure way is neutering kittens before they leave you. BYBs don't care about the papers.

Astonished at you jumping in with 5 girls and 3 boys. And wondering where you got a stud house for £800, if that includes insulation & electrics..


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## Littlefluffykatts (Oct 5, 2019)

...


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Littlefluffykatts said:


> I have contradicting statements for and against neutering before 6 months.


There is ample scientific research and evidence proving that early neutering is safe and better for the kittens. Not statement, fact.

Your contract is, sadly, not worth the paper it's written on and you could be penalised for it with the registering bodies.

Three boys and five girls isn't a great ratio and is very ambitious for a new breeder. I certainly wouldn't be jumping in feet first like that and I've been mentored for 7 years (through various circumstances I've had to wait for a litter). That's a lot to take on for a new breeder, regardless of how much cash you have to splash.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Almost every time I write something now, on this forum or social media regarding starting cat breeding/showing, it makes me acutely aware of my age.

It's hard not to start with something like "back in the day" ... When I started breeding it was unheard of for a new breeder to own a stud or more than two girls. I won't go into the reasons why, it's too long, but I think those reasons are even more valid now than they were then

I rarely see or have contact with new breeders now who start with a girl or two, are interested in showing or have any kind of knowledge of their chosen breed. It really is most often "in at the deep end" which brings with it all kinds of complex problems and questions that you wouldn't usually be dealing with until much further into the future.

Through our work (as animal couriers) it's very common to see new breeders importing upwards of five cats within the space of a few months. It isn't my job (literally) to question or criticise but it does leave me thinking...wow. And then I keep my thoughts to myself!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> Almost every time I write something now, on this forum or social media regarding starting cat breeding/showing, it makes me acutely aware of my age.
> 
> It's hard not to start with something like "back in the day" ... When I started breeding it was unheard of for a new breeder to own a stud or more than two girls. I won't go into the reasons why, it's too long, but I think those reasons are even more valid now than they were then
> 
> ...


I'm in agreement with all of this, which makes me sad. Not the agreeing part, but the fact that it's nigh impossible to find a new breeder that takes their time to learn before diving in


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## Littlefluffykatts (Oct 5, 2019)

...


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Littlefluffykatts said:


> I am aware it isn't a great ratio. And I don't have to explain myself. I have 20 years experience. So I don't need to explain or justify anything.
> 
> However 3 stud cats of seperate lines although ambitious is purposeful. And for a breeding plan I can keep it going. To preserve the breed. Of all champion lines.
> As I said a lifelong dedication.


Surely 20 years of experience would give you the common sense to not have such a ration then? Sorry, it just seems a bit of a contradiction.

It's great you've got dedication, please bear in mind that you're not the only one. No ethical breeder would breed without a certain amount of dedication. Mind you, it depends on what one is dedicated to....


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## Littlefluffykatts (Oct 5, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> Surely 20 years of experience would give you the common sense to not have such a ration then? Sorry, it just seems a bit of a contradiction.
> 
> It's great you've got dedication, please bear in mind that you're not the only one. No ethical breeder would breed without a certain amount of dedication. Mind you, it depends on what one is dedicated to....


To preserving a breed.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Littlefluffykatts said:


> To preserving a breed.


So, again, your experience should tell you that your ratio is risky and quite unfair on your boys unless you're willing to stud out, which again isn't advisable for a new breeder.

Sorry, but I'm baffled


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## Littlefluffykatts (Oct 5, 2019)

...


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Littlefluffykatts said:


> One of the boys is soon to be retired. If that helps. And one is a kitten.
> But again why should I justify and what is it of yours.


Since you chose to come into this thread and post a lot of contradictory opinions, why _shouldn't _you justify? In other words if you didn't want to explain yourself, why did you bring it all up in the first place?

If you were hoping for a rational give and take discussion, part of that is explaining your reasons.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Littlefluffykatts said:


> One of the boys is soon to be retired. If that helps. And one is a kitten.
> But again why should I justify and what is it of yours.


A breeder should always be able to explain why they've taken a decision, it's a position of responsibility and breeders should be held accountable to some degree by their peers. That doesn't necessarily mean justifying one's self and there's no need to get defensive.

You have volunteered information that has raised concerns, and as this thread is about ethical breeding, would it be ethical of us to say nothing?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Littlefluffykatts said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> And try not kick off your high horse!
> 
> ...


'high horse' is really quite offensive, and the 20 years doesn't seem to be breeding pedigree cats. The experience you have had will be very, very useful, but breeding is different to looking after ferals & rescues.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@gskinner123 i started off with one then got a second girl after about 3 years of showing neuters but am aware I am in the minority now.

I personally prefer not to have my own stud as it means I have access to a wider range of cats who can compliment my own cats type plus a huge wealth of experience in the stud owners. I hope we may have a boy kitten join us later in the year but he is really coming as a show cat. He will have to have the superlorin implant as he would not have anywhere enough girls to keep him satisfied. Having seen how mad they can go being able to smell girls and not be able to mate them when my mentor was ill and couldn't breed.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> It's hard not to start with something like "back in the day" ... When I started breeding it was unheard of for a new breeder to own a stud or more than two girls. I won't go into the reasons why, it's too long, but I think those reasons are even more valid now than they were then
> 
> I rarely see or have contact with new breeders now who start with a girl or two, are interested in showing or have any kind of knowledge of their chosen breed. It really is most often "in at the deep end" which brings with it all kinds of complex problems and questions that you wouldn't usually be dealing with until much further into the future.


I do agree with you, I also feel that new breeders should start off with one girl, show, get to understand the breed particularly type which no book will ever teach you. However, sadly times have changed and not for the better.

When I got into breeding it was very much easier. Breeders were willing to help and suitable studs were easy to find at public stud. Jump to Fifteen years later when I decided to add a second breed having already owned and showed one as a pet for over a year, it was impossible!! It was very hard to buy a breeding queen and no breeders have their stud at public stud now (this goes for both my breeds). Despite really not wanting to buy a stud so soon my hands were tied and I was forced to. I was very luckily offered one by a friend.

Things are hard for new breeders starting out now.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> I do agree with you, I also feel that new breeders should start off with one girl, show, get to understand the breed particularly type which no book will ever teach you. However, sadly times have changed and not for the better.
> 
> When I got into breeding it was very much easier. Breeders were willing to help and suitable studs were easy to find at public stud. Jump to Fifteen years later when I decided to add a second breed having already owned and showed one as a pet for over a year, it was impossible!! It was very hard to buy a breeding queen and no breeders have their stud at public stud now (this goes for both my breeds). Despite really not wanting to buy a stud so soon my hands were tied and I was forced to. I was very luckily offered one by a friend.
> 
> Things are hard for new breeders starting out now.


I agree on all points. Was lucky to get Basil, though having breed and shown a GrCh girl was a big help. Think you can research all you like but nothing compares to the experience of raising a litter, though it is possible to get that by fostering for a rescue. I did that, several times, but when it was my own girl that I had chosen to get pregnant it was much more stressful.

I'd say in part the Internet is responsible. It makes it much easier for BYBs to sell kittens, and of course that's not the future we want for our kittens.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I wonder how many new breeders, looking for an active registered girl, are turned away these days. I think that may, inadvertently, contribute to backyard breeding too.
As for breeders looking for an active registered stud, many seem to be turning to Eastern Europe having been turned down in the UK. Not bad for the gene pool I don't suppose but so many seem to come to this country with issues with health.


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## Melissa3236 (Sep 2, 2019)

Wow!

What a can of worms well and truly opened. 

I've decided to wait. To buy a non active girl and neuter her to get to know the breed. I have no interest in going to cat shows though. I can't see this as being a suitable environment for my daughter or indeed for cats. Surely they would find being around so many strange cats in a strange place incredibly stressful. 

I do wonder if breeders are more concerned with the breed standards than they are the individual cats.....maybe that's a whole other can of worms though?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Melissa3236 said:


> Wow!
> 
> What a can of worms well and truly opened.
> 
> ...


Glad you have decided to wait, and since you are going to neuter what about a boy? In my experience they are more loving and easier to get on with than girls.

However some cats are definitely show cats. They adore the attention and love being handled. Basil is one - he adores a show, and people adore meeting him. These are the personalities we should be breeding from, confident outgoing cats. This is the personality people want as pets. Two of Basil's kittens were the devil to catch when their new owners came to collect, but they sent me a photo a few hours later of them cuddled up on the sofa with the woman and her daughter. The other two didn't take long to settle in either.

A decent breeder of course is concerned with breed standards, but not sure what you mean by 'the individual cats'.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Melissa3236 said:


> Wow!
> 
> What a can of worms well and truly opened.
> 
> ...


I have taken all of my children to cat shows, they are all under 6 and really enjoy the day. Entertainment and snacks are key.

How do you propose to learn the breed standard without hearing judge feed back on how your neuter meets the standard? You can't get an eye for a breed without understanding what to look for.

Many cats enjoy shows, one of my own is an attention tart and loves nothing more than being up on my shoulder nosing about. Cats that find showing stressful do not get (or should not be) shown. To imply that breeders do it regardless of the cats' stress levels is pretty ignorant and offensive, and will not serve you well when looking for active lines.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> A decent breeder of course is concerned with breed standards, but not sure what you mean by 'the individual cats'.


Yeah, that one interests me too. Which of my 'individual' cats do you suppose isn't taking to joining me in bed now the nights are cooling? Which preferences where food is concerned do you think I might be ignoring? Does the way my cats live with me not count now I'm only an 'ex' breeder? Nothing has changed - other than I nowadays don't have a queen bringing her two day old kittens in to my bed, one by one, at two in the morning so she can also be under the duvet curled up with me as is her rightful place.

I'm reminded of the great answer a breeder gave to a buyer who asked for a discount if they bought two kittens - 'of course I can give you a discount, which kitten would you like me to stop feeding?'. It isn't breeders who don't value every individual


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Well my cats will tell you they are all neglected


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@havoc the difference between breeds, yours brings them under the duvet. Blue would bring them over to the cool mat when they were a few days old. I was terrified they were going to get too cold, I took her cool mat away and she stopped feeding them as she was too hot.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

To add one more point, ethical breeders ensure they have the funds to pay their animals vet bills rather than balk at the cost and take them home when they should be in the vets undergoing treatment. Then open a go fund me account and ask charities to help with the vet bill.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

lillytheunicorn said:


> To add one more point, ethical breeders ensure they have the funds to pay their animals vet bills rather than balk at the cost and take them home when they should be in the vets undergoing treatment. Then open a go fund me account and ask charities to help with the vet bill.


Absolutely agree


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## moomoowawa (May 19, 2019)

I've read this thread with interest, I have nothing to do with breeding! But I was really curious about the comment of having three studs to five queens, someone said that ratio was "unfair" and others agreed. That's interesting, how does it work, what makes it unfair?

I'm surprised to hear people also own male cats to breed from, always assumed one person would have a male, one would have a female, not that you'd have both. Isn't that highly stressful, having unneutered/spayed animals of the same sex in the same location?!

Also how do people with "studs" keep them? To me a Tom cat is all about the prowling and gallivanting off and about to get laid and have adventures But if it's a stud, I'm assuming the cat is too precious to lose. Does that mean people who own studs have to keep these high energy 'whole' Male cats on lockdown? Along with 'whole' female cats in heat in the room next door?! Sounds like a nightmare to me.


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## moomoowawa (May 19, 2019)

moomoowawa said:


> I've read this thread with interest, I have nothing to do with breeding! But I was really curious about the comment of having three studs to five queens, someone said that ratio was "unfair" and others agreed. That's interesting, how does it work, what makes it unfair?
> 
> I'm surprised to hear people also own male cats to breed from, always assumed one person would have a male, one would have a female, not that you'd have both. Isn't that highly stressful, having unneutered/spayed animals of the same sex in the same location?!
> 
> Also how do people with "studs" keep them? To me a Tom cat is all about the prowling and gallivanting off and about to get laid and have adventures But if it's a stud, I'm assuming the cat is too precious to lose. Does that mean people who own studs have to keep these high energy 'whole' Male cats on lockdown? Along with 'whole' female cats in heat in the room next door?! Sounds like a nightmare to me.


Of a DIFFERENT sex, not same sorry!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

moomoowawa said:


> I've read this thread with interest, I have nothing to do with breeding! But I was really curious about the comment of having three studs to five queens, someone said that ratio was "unfair" and others agreed. That's interesting, how does it work, what makes it unfair?
> 
> I'm surprised to hear people also own male cats to breed from, always assumed one person would have a male, one would have a female, not that you'd have both. Isn't that highly stressful, having unneutered/spayed animals of the same sex in the same location?!
> 
> Also how do people with "studs" keep them? To me a Tom cat is all about the prowling and gallivanting off and about to get laid and have adventures But if it's a stud, I'm assuming the cat is too precious to lose. Does that mean people who own studs have to keep these high energy 'whole' Male cats on lockdown? Along with 'whole' female cats in heat in the room next door?! Sounds like a nightmare to me.


The general rule of thumb is one boy needs 3-4 girls a year to keep him happy and occupied. Some need more, some need less, but generally a good ratio is 3-4 girls to one boy. Offering a boy that needs more girls less than what he needs leads to frustration, anxiety, aggression, and often depression.

Breeders will keep their own male as they it's often easier for difficult girls than going out to stud, and it's more convenient. Many breeds also have restrictions on active cats now, and many studs, particularly those imported from Europe, cannot be mated with any cats outside of the breeders own cattery.

There are different ways to keep males depending on the male himself. Some are able to live indoors, with appropriate separation from females when needed, some live in stud runs outside.

Not all males spray, so those that don't tend to be more successful indoors. Some breeds also struggle with life out in a stud run, and some breeders feel stud runs are unfair. An ethical breeder will, of course, do what suits the cat in the first instance.


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## moomoowawa (May 19, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> The general rule of thumb is one boy needs 3-4 girls a year to keep him happy and occupied. Some need more, some need less, but generally a good ratio is 3-4 girls to one boy. Offering a boy that needs more girls less than what he needs leads to frustration, anxiety, aggression, and often depression.
> 
> Breeders will keep their own male as they it's often easier for difficult girls than going out to stud, and it's more convenient. Many breeds also have restrictions on active cats now, and many studs, particularly those imported from Europe, cannot be mated with any cats outside of the breeders own cattery.
> 
> ...


Thanks for replying Rufus! Why are stud runs seen as unfair/difficult for some breeds? Are they just basically outdoor pens?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

moomoowawa said:


> Thanks for replying Rufus! Why are stud runs seen as unfair/difficult for some breeds? Are they just basically outdoor pens?


Yes they are. Some feels it's unfair because the boy is outside in a run and not getting as much attention. It can be difficult to give a stud the time they need, which is then unfair on the breeds that are more human-focused.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

moomoowawa said:


> <snip>
> I'm surprised to hear people also own male cats to breed from, always assumed one person would have a male, one would have a female, not that you'd have both. Isn't that highly stressful, having unneutered/spayed animals of the same sex in the same location?!
> 
> Also how do people with "studs" keep them? To me a Tom cat is all about the prowling and gallivanting off and about to get laid and have adventures But if it's a stud, I'm assuming the cat is too precious to lose. Does that mean people who own studs have to keep these high energy 'whole' Male cats on lockdown? Along with 'whole' female cats in heat in the room next door?! Sounds like a nightmare to me.


My boy is out in a stud house in the garden with his neutered male friend. It's 10' x 6'. It has a smaller inside area (4' x 6') which is insulated & heated with a waterproof floor covering, and their bed is on a shelf (also with a waterproof surface) along with food, water & a cat flap to the outside. The litter tray is under the shelf, stood on a large bit of plastic floor protector as the neutered friend sometimes stands up to pee. I was using huge hooded trays but the boys now have a Brit-Pet tray and I didn't originally order a hood. I should have and I have one on it's way. The plastic will stay, but the hood will mean I won't sometimes find a bit puddle of pee on it, just a tiny trickle. 

Outside (6' x 6') has wire mesh so it really is fresh air, and there is a chair for me to sit on. I'm about to add a folding shelf so I can put my cuppa within reach when I'm sitting out there. It also faces SSE so gets lots of sun except in the dead of winter. It has lights and an outside light switch as well, and a web cam though the connection from that to the wifi is not good, I imagine because the insulation has a foil layer so the inside bit is a Faraday cage. I'm sorting out an extender to help with that - I have it but need to experiment with positioning it so it can pick up the Wi-Fi in the house and extend it enough outside.

It also has another cat flap into my garden. I sit with them for an hour or more a day (newly retired!) while they are in the garden. They will get free range in it during the day once I'm absolutely sure my cat-proofing is cat-proof. Right now I'm not, the flap is locked and partly hidden behind the plastic box with the spare litter in.

Going in the garden is new and I notice far less poo in the litter tray since then. It also means Basil is far less aware of Tia which is kinder to him. He sprays but mostly in the run & garden. Some studs pee on their bedding! The stud house & run is on small blocks on concrete slabs so it's easy to hose the run to clean it.

I couldn't bear Basil in the house as firstly it took a lot of pain with doors to make sure he couldn't mate a girl when I didn't want him to, secondly as you suggest if one was in call he'd get wound up, and thirdly he sprays and leaves the odd puddle. Stud cat pee is awful stuff, both very stinky and corrosive. It's not hard to remove the stink (at least Basil's stink - some are much smellier than others) from stuff that can go in the washing machine, but I think it's impossible to completely remove the smell from upholstery & carpets, and all cat pee can go through carpets into the flooring underneath. It can reach the stage where the only solution is to replace not only the carpet & underlay (if any) but the floor boards as well.

Total cost of the pen (including delivery & erection), getting slabs laid & connected to the electricity was well over £1,000, though the bill for the slabbing included work on the garden walls which needed doing regardless.

However there are different practices in different countries, and between big breeders and small ones like me. What is utterly awful are the breeders who keep both males & females in cages. My girls have the run of most of the house, kittens are raised in the living room, and the boys will have day-time freedom to go in the garden. I live in a bungalow, I want bedroom windows open at night for most of the year and I don't want him spraying in my bedroom - or having a quickie with one of the girls!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

PS there is also a page on the GCCF web site about keeping a stud:

https://www.gccfcats.org/Breeding-Information/Keeping-a-Stud


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> It also faces SSE so gets lots of sun


Out of interest, how did they cope during the heatwave this year and last? Even with shading, it must have been boiling in the pen.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

SbanR said:


> Out of interest, how did they cope during the heatwave this year and last? Even with shading, it must have been boiling in the pen.


The insulated inside area stays cool as well as warm and the orientation stops the sun beating directly down on the roof, which slopes backwards. The heatpad in the bed was turned off.

Also it wasn't as hot here in Scotland as in the south of England, and cats originated in the desert so cope better with heat than we do.

Years ago when I lived in a rented room, I had a black cat and I remember he would lie in front of the gas fire until his fur was almost too hot for us to touch! Hopefully they will have free run of the garden next summer, and they will find spots that suit them either in the sun, or the shade. And when the sun is high it doesn't shine nearly as much into the run, and most of the slabs are out of direct sun so fairly cool to lie on.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

SbanR said:


> Out of interest, how did they cope during the heatwave this year and last? Even with shading, it must have been boiling in the pen.


I really stressed about this, last summer. I bought a second large parasol, super king size white sheets, various bits and bobs to secure it all to shade the run area as it faces the sun all day. I bought extra cool mats, put ice in the water, took a large floor standing fan outside on an extension cable. Then tried to reassure myself that all would be well.

I popped outside on a roasting day a few hours later to find my stud laying in a small patch of sun that the parasol and sheets had missed.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> I really stressed about this, last summer. I bought a second large parasol, super king size white sheets, various bits and bobs to secure it all to shade the run area as it faces the sun all day. I bought extra cool mats, put ice in the water, took a large floor standing fan outside on an extension cable. Then tried to reassure myself that all would be well.
> 
> I popped outside on a roasting day a few hours later to find my stud laying in a small patch of sun that the parasol and sheets had missed.


That genuinely made me laugh out loud :Hilarious


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> That genuinely made me laugh out loud :Hilarious


I had ranted at my OH (as you do, when stressed about something) for days about the impending temperatures and spent hours and hours rigging up my shading system so it didn't come down if the wind picked up. And all for nothing apparently!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I really stressed about this, last summer. I bought a second large parasol, super king size white sheets, various bits and bobs to secure it all to shade the run area as it faces the sun all day. I bought extra cool mats, put ice in the water, took a large floor standing fan outside on an extension cable. Then tried to reassure myself that all would be well.
> 
> I popped outside on a roasting day a few hours later to find my stud laying in a small patch of sun that the parasol and sheets had missed.


LOL! I think his fur might have insulated him from the heat. However you sound well equipped for a sundowner on a hot day.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

gskinner123 said:


> I really stressed about this, last summer. I bought a second large parasol, super king size white sheets, various bits and bobs to secure it all to shade the run area as it faces the sun all day. I bought extra cool mats, put ice in the water, took a large floor standing fan outside on an extension cable. Then tried to reassure myself that all would be well.
> 
> I popped outside on a roasting day a few hours later to find my stud laying in a small patch of sun that the parasol and sheets had missed.


He probably moved to the shade when you went indoors then moved to lie in the Sun when he heard you coming:Hilarious
(Do you remember the advert where the pandas did nothing while the photographer was watching them, then did a dance routine when he turned away then back to doing nothing when he turned back to watch)


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> I had ranted at my OH (as you do, when stressed about something) for days about the impending temperatures and spent hours and hours rigging up my shading system so it didn't come down if the wind picked up. And all for nothing apparently!


Better to have it than not


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

moomoowawa said:


> I'm surprised to hear people also own male cats to breed from, always assumed one person would have a male, one would have a female,


Ideally studs should not be kept by inexperienced new breeders, mentors should be assisting with mating the girls they have placed for breeding.
Many contracts can be overcome when you have built up a good relationship with other breeders. 
A lot of breeders importing may not have built up a relationship over the years with that breeder and agree to restricting contracts.

not all boys (or girls) are suited to breeding life and should be neutered if unhappy or too stressed for their 'job'
Stud owners must have the time to spend with their boys, or they shouldn't own them. Our cats are pets first, breeders and show cats second.

stud runs here tend to have shade cloth and sprinkler misting for cooling. On hot days boys are brought inside, penned with blankets & puppy pads around to contain spraying for the hosers. They go back out overnight when temps drop to the 30's.

My boys have all lived indoors, none have ever sprayed or upset the other cats. The boys get on together, enjoy the company of other cats and kittens.


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## Milo’s mum (Aug 23, 2019)

Unethical breeding.
Photos like this break my heart.
This is from a web advert. ( I don't know why I am still browsing for a new kitten ) Poor little souls in the tiniest of little prisons.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Looks like that cat pen is in a rabbitary


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

David C said:


> Looks like that cat pen is in a rabbitary


Rabbits need more room, let alone cats


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## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

OrientalSlave said:


> Rabbits need more room, let alone cats


My three rabbits have 200 square foot they share! Think a cat would definitely need more than a rabbit!


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Rabbits need more room, let alone cats


Indeed they do but my concern for the cat is being in a shed full of rabbits with all the dust from the shavings and hay


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

David C said:


> Indeed they do but my concern for the cat is being in a shed full of rabbits with all the dust from the shavings and hay


Didn't notice the rabbits. Isn't the dust a problem for them as well?


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## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

OrientalSlave said:


> Didn't notice the rabbits. Isn't the dust a problem for them as well?


Yes, rabbits should never be housed with sawdust as bedding, the dust causes respiratory issues for them (I think specifically if it is pine then it is very bad for them). Hay is necessary for rabbits to keep teeth and guts healthy, it is more dusty the poorer the quality I find, but is safe, their housing should be well ventilated anyway.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I'm confused how hay has come into it when we can't see what the rabbits are housed with. Whilst I agree that the hutches are too small based on what we can see, we can't make the same assumption for the cat's enclosure. We can only see a corner and it could be bigger than it looks. Equally it's not unusual to have cats penned in an outdoor enclosure.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> Equally it's not unusual to have cats penned in an outdoor enclosure.


Without knowing the context, he may be the sire of a litter, in which case a stud pen isn't uncommon. 
Hopefully it's nicer than the rabbit housing. It could also be his sleep area and he has outdoor space as well.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

My now retired breeding rabbits space was more than appears in the photo but is less than they do now they are neutered and living together. Much like some stud cats, the Male had to live on his own and sprayed terribly. FYI Bunny spray is far worse than cat. They lived each in separate 6ft x 2ft x 2ft hutch and would have access to a run for an hour each a day. Now they have a runaround system with 40ft of burrow pipe, a large run and a smaller top box.


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