# traumatised cats



## AlexUK (Dec 15, 2014)

Hello
I need urgently advice how to support my cats. I have two cats, nearly 2 years old. We moved in June and that was no problem for them. Here come the problem now. My neighbour has that tomcat who is a pain in the a**.
He comes all the time into my house, and in all neighbour houses, and bullied my cats in their own home.
We are not allowed to get a cat-flap so therefore I have no choice to leave the back door a bit open, so that my one can come and go whenever they want to.
One of my cat is really traumatised of him already. she is scarred to leave the house and has on-going fights. the other cat is a bit stronger and older, goes out, but get bullied of him as well.
I have no idea what I can do to keep him out of my house. I spoke to my neighbour, asked them to let him doctored but nothing.My both cats loves going out but they have changed their behaviour since he is there. They are spitting to each other, fighting and growing like hell. If any one has an good idea how i can keep him outside and them happy, with going out access, I would be more as pleased.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Are you able to cat proof the garden to keep yours in, and him out? If not, I would think about getting him neutered yourself.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I am sorry to hear things are so bad, but as this is the case I strongly recommend you keep your door shut so the tom cat cannot get in, and your cats will be safe. 

You will have to open the door yourself to let your cats in and out, but far better to do that than them terrified in their own home. If you have to go out, you should leave your cats shut indoors, and provide them with litter trays. 

The tom cat will be less of a bully if he is neutered but you won't stop him coming in your house now unless you keep your door shut or get a microchip cat flap. Sorry, but that is a fact. 

Have your tried asking your landlord if you could have your own door put in, 
with a flap in, then you would put the landlord's door back when you move. Some landlords will agree to this.


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## Ely01 (May 14, 2014)

Ang2 said:


> Are you able to cat proof the garden to keep yours in, and him out? If not, I would think about getting him neutered yourself.


Yes for the cat proofing idea.
No for neutering somebody else's cat.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I have had several other people's cats neutered, it was always well worth doing. I never got any comeback, I suspect the owners never really noticed.


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## Little Zooey (Feb 4, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> I have had several other people's cats neutered, it was always well worth doing. I never got any comeback, I suspect the owners never really noticed.


I'm sure they didn't in most cases, but I bet they would have done if something had gone wrong and the cat had not survived the surgery. Did you also pay for full blood tests before the op to check for problems? Regardless, you would still know nothing about the animal's medical history. And did your vet agree to this, knowing the animal wasn't registered to you? I am truly horrified...


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Little Zooey said:


> I'm sure they didn't in most cases, but I bet they would have done if something had gone wrong and the cat had not survived the surgery. Did you also pay for full blood tests before the op to check for problems? Regardless, you would still know nothing about the animal's medical history. And did your vet agree to this, knowing the animal wasn't registered to you? I am truly horrified...


I am more horrified that owners continue to allow their un-neutered cats to roam neighbourhoods, impregnate un-neutered females, fail to flea, worm or properly feed them all. The kittens are sold for £30 to any Tom, Dick or Harry with no consideration as to whether they are going to suitable homes, and the Toms are left to fight their territory, sustaining injuries, and making the lives of other responsible owners and their pets a misery.

If an irresponsible neighbour refused to neuter their Tom cat, and it continued to terrorise mine, I wouldn't think twice! And yes, I would have blood work done, and consider I had done the owners a favour that they couldn't be assed to do themselves. An un-neutered male cat, left to roam, is the sign of irresponsible owners.


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## Little Zooey (Feb 4, 2014)

You couldn't find anyone more pro neutering than me. I've been involved in the rescue of cats and ferrets for the past 35 years. So yes... I know the problems lack of neutering can and will cause. The spread of disease and the risk of RTA due to wandering. Female ferrets suffer terribly from not being brought out of season and once I had to "rescue" one from the RSPCA of all places. I knew of her some months earlier and when I found she was still there I enquired about her well-being. I was told she had to live on her own due to permanently being in season. They knew the risks, but wouldn't spend the money on the op, or the jill jab. Needless to say, we adopted her the same day, took the afternoon off work and went to collect her.

I still wouldn't kidnap anyone else's pet and put them through the risks of a general anaesthetic though. You don't know anything about the pet or the owner. So... he might look like a rough type who just doesn't care. You don't know if he suffered terribly as a child when his beloved pet cat died during surgery. Maybe he swore never again, but took the cat from a real rough type who was going to have it PTS. You don't know and it's not your right to know.

Pets do die during routine surgery. It happened to my vet nurse friend when she took her six month kitten to be neutered. At her own surgery too. We lost one of our cats during a routine dental and yes... I had all the blood work done and it showed him to be in tip top health. Of course, the cats you claim to be "saving" could well have had some recent illness that made them not entirely suitable for surgery on that particular day. But then you don't seem to care about the welfare of that cat as long as it isn't causing YOU a problem. You are treating a living creature without the due care and attention only a responsible owner could give. Granted, these poor creatures don't have the owners they deserve, but they deserve a whole lot more respect than you have shown them...


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Little Zooey said:


> You couldn't find anyone more pro neutering than me. I've been involved in the rescue of cats and ferrets for the past 35 years. So yes... I know the problems lack of neutering can and will cause. The spread of disease and the risk of RTA due to wandering. Female ferrets suffer terribly from not being brought out of season and once I had to "rescue" one from the RSPCA of all places. I knew of her some months earlier and when I found she was still there I enquired about her well-being. I was told she had to live on her own due to permanently being in season. They knew the risks, but wouldn't spend the money on the op, or the jill jab. Needless to say, we adopted her the same day, took the afternoon off work and went to collect her.
> 
> I still wouldn't kidnap anyone else's pet and put them through the risks of a general anaesthetic though. You don't know anything about the pet or the owner. So... he might look like a rough type who just doesn't care. You don't know if he suffered terribly as a child when his beloved pet cat died during surgery. Maybe he swore never again, but took the cat from a real rough type who was going to have it PTS. You don't know and it's not your right to know.
> 
> Pets do die during routine surgery. It happened to my vet nurse friend when she took her six month kitten to be neutered. At her own surgery too. We lost one of our cats during a routine dental and yes... I had all the blood work done and it showed him to be in tip top health. Of course, the cats you claim to be "saving" could well have had some recent illness that made them not entirely suitable for surgery on that particular day. But then you don't seem to care about the welfare of that cat as long as it isn't causing YOU a problem. You are treating a living creature without the due care and attention only a responsible owner could give. Granted, these poor creatures don't have the owners they deserve, but they deserve a whole lot more respect than you have shown them...


I beg your pardon! So now youre giving all the reasons NOT to have a cat neutered, yet know nothing about the cat in question, but prefer to guess on the offensive? And you have the audacity to suggest that neutering some poor tom would be for MY self convenience.

So not getting your cat neutered is showing them respect? No wonder this world is in a mess! Been in rescue for many years myself. Ive seen the misery and suffering through irresponsible breeding. Don't try and teach your grandmother to suck eggs!

You seem to think my own cats are less deserving of security and safety!


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## Little Zooey (Feb 4, 2014)

So how exactly do you go about neutering someone else's pet? Catnap it one evening and hope it hasn't been ill that day? Do you claim to be the owner, or that it is just a stray? You are supposed to keep a geniune stray for one week before getting it neutered. Does your vet ask why you keep turning up with various stray tom cats, or doesn't he care as long as you sign on the dotted line? What exactly are you going to do if one day (and it CAN happen), when the cat stops breathing during surgery? Do you get the vet to take the body and hope the owner doesn't notice? There are supposed to be millions of genuine stray cats in this country. Why don't you join Cats Protection and help them with some feral colonies? I have. I've even kept and tamed some of the ferals too - one is sitting behind me waiting for me to take her to bed. There are more than enough needy animals out there without stealing someone else's pet.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ang2 said:


> I beg your pardon! So now youre giving all the reasons NOT to have a cat neutered, yet know nothing about the cat in question, but prefer to guess on the offensive? And you have the audacity to suggest that neutering some poor tom would be for MY self convenience.
> 
> So not getting your cat neutered is showing them respect? No wonder this world is in a mess! Been in rescue for many years myself. Ive seen the misery and suffering through irresponsible breeding. Don't try and teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
> 
> You seem to think my own cats are less deserving of security and safety!


Legally how do you stand with this then?


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Little Zooey said:


> So how exactly do you go about neutering someone else's pet? Catnap it one evening and hope it hasn't been ill that day? Do you claim to be the owner, or that it is just a stray? You are supposed to keep a geniune stray for one week before getting it neutered. Does your vet ask why you keep turning up with various stray tom cats, or doesn't he care as long as you sign on the dotted line? What exactly are you going to do if one day (and it CAN happen), when the cat stops breathing during surgery? Do you get the vet to take the body and hope the owner doesn't notice? There are supposed to be millions of genuine stray cats in this country. Why don't you join Cats Protection and help them with some feral colonies? I have. I've even kept and tamed some of the ferals too - one is sitting behind me waiting for me to take her to bed. There are more than enough needy animals out there without stealing someone else's pet.


Have you been on the Christmas Sherry???? Where have I said I have actually done this? What I said is that *if* my cats '*were*' being bullied, and chased into their own home, that I wouldn't hesitate. Stop making up a whole scenario!

Why on earth would I want to join Cats Protection? I have ten rescue animals of my own, and presently feeding a stray! Between a full time job and my own animals, I don't have the time.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Legally how do you stand with this then?


With what?


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## kategod (Feb 13, 2014)

I do have a great deal of sympathy with the 'forcible' neutering of cats - having spent some time in Spain where many cats, a lot of whom have 'homes', carry on breeding with terrible consequences. Maybe if you've seen (as I have) a female cat dying more or less in front of me from a postpartum infection (I assume) - and we're talking a really young cat, 2 years old at most, on her third litter - she was in huge pain, and I did try to grab hold of her to take her to the vet, but she scuttled off where I couldn't reach her and the next day I found out she was dead.She did have owners of sorts - who fed her - but cared so little about her that they let her have litter after litter - they were hardly ever around so I never got to tell them how I felt. But ever since then I have resolved to help any cat in the same situation. One of my biggest regrets in life is that I didn't 'kidnap' her when I was first aware of her situation and take her to be spayed. Frankly I couldn't care less what traumas her owners went through in childhood - nothing excuses neglecting a living thing. I still live with the guilt that I didn't 'steal someone else's pet'&#8230;. And if you extend the argument you are using, presumably Social Services would never have the right to intervene in cases of child neglect?

Cleo, as I think there is legally no 'right' to cat ownership I think there is no legal problem.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

AlexUK said:


> I spoke to my neighbour, asked them to let him doctored but nothing.


What did the neighbour say when you asked them? Did they flatly refuse? Is it worth speaking to them again explaining that he is terrorising your cats and surely they can understand that as they are obviously cat lovers themselves? Maybe they didn't fully understand the situation. Or maybe they can't afford to get him neutered. Do you think they would be angry if you offered to arrange to get him neutered?

If you've only spoken to them once then I think it is worth another go. Without that then it seems like you only have the choice of cat proofing your garden because even with a microchip cat flap, the tom cat may well be just outside the door waiting for them.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ang2 said:


> With what?


Neuering someone cat without their consent? I can't imagine alot of vets would do this just because it may be causing you inconvenience


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Neuering someone cat without their consent? I can't imagine alot of vets would do this just because it may be causing you inconvenience


Not because its causing me inconvenience - but because it was terrorising my cats AND in the best interests of the cat! An un neutered, un micro-chipped cat is a stray. And any responsible owner would have their outdoor cat neutered? So why are you defending an irresponsible owner? Most irresponsible owners don't bother neutering because a) cant be arsed, or b) cant afford it. What kind of owner would say, "actually, I want my tom to roam and father as many unwanted kittens as possible"?


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## Little Zooey (Feb 4, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Legally how do you stand with this then?


If... anyone were thinking of doing this, then legally (in the UK) it would be regarded as a criminal offence. There was a case recently where an ex-husband was prosecuted for taking his ex-wife's cat on a 30 mile drive and dumping it. It is criminal damage to property...


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## Little Zooey (Feb 4, 2014)

Ang2 said:


> Have you been on the Christmas Sherry???? Where have I said I have actually done this? What I said is that *if* my cats '*were*' being bullied, and chased into their own home, that I wouldn't hesitate. Stop making up a whole scenario!
> 
> Why on earth would I want to join Cats Protection? I have ten rescue animals of my own, and presently feeding a stray! Between a full time job and my own animals, I don't have the time.


Apologies to Ang2 for confusing you with the other poster. No... you didn't say you had done this, only that you would. Another poster has admitted to it though and I would strongly discourage the practice. If the cat dies during surgery, I wouldn't want that on my conscience. It's a horrible thing having to put your pet through surgery of any kind. Nobody has the right to make that decision for another person's cat - regardless of how bad an owner you think they are. They may not be perfect, but that is what the RSPCA is for - to report the very bad owners. The practice is illegal too. You can't be responsible for where your cat roams (unlike dogs), but they are regarded as property. Now someone please tell my ten cats that...


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## Little Zooey (Feb 4, 2014)

Just to provide the proof to help those in the UK:

The law recognises cats as property,
so that when somebody steals a cat
from its owner this would be theft
under the Theft Act 1968. Those
involved in taking a cat might also be
charged with handling stolen goods or
obtaining property by deception.

The criminal law also covers harm
caused to a cat by a third party
(somebody other than the owner). The
law makes it an offence to kill or injure
companion animals (see definition at
page 5) so that if a person harmed or
killed a cat belonging to another they
could be prosecuted. Ownership of the
animal does not have to be proved as
the law recognises domestic cats as
protected animals. So, in the event of
the death or injury of a cat caused by a
third party (even where ownership of
the animal cannot be established) the
Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) may
consider a charge of criminal damage,
although there are sometimes
difficulties with having enough
evidence to prosecute these cases.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Just to say I do actually know of a case some years ago where a previous neighbour of mine sued another neighbour for kidnapping her tom cat and having him neutered. 

Neighbour 1 (the owner) was furious and sued Neighbour 2 in the Small Claims Court for damages to her "property". Neighbour 2 told the court she'd thought the tom cat was a stray, as it had been hanging around her garden for several months, and she had been feeding it. (Neighbour 2 also told the vet the same story when she took the cat to be neutered). 

The Court listened to Neighbour 2's argument and on the basis it was impossible to prove she knew the cat belonged to someone, (cat was not microchipped) Neighbour 1 lost her case. But I knew for a fact that Neighbour 2 did not believe the cat to be a stray when she took him to be neutered.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Along with irresponsible tom owners, we know there are just as many irresponsible intact female owners. Is this right for the welfare of the cats, and thousands of unwanted litters born each year, ending up in rescue or worse?

It should be illegal to own a roaming intact cat, unless you have a licence for breeding. Most blame financial reasons and lack of time. If someone took my cat and had it neutered, I'd consider they had done me a favour and saved me a pretty penny, along with time and effort.


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## Little Zooey (Feb 4, 2014)

Unfortunately there are far too many animals and far too few responsible owners. Over the last 25 years I have borrowed traps from CP, caught unwanted strays and feral kittens (and ended up keeping most of them myself). CP certainly do neutering vouchers and Celia Hammond has been doing something similar for many years. We had a stray tom our way recently. We live in the middle of nowhere and you may be pleased to hear I had plans to feed him and give him a shelter outside until he was suitable for trapping and neutering. No joy - he wandered off after a couple of days and we haven't seen him for months. I did however check with the neighbours, but they confirmed a stray. Apparently he had been breaking into their kitchens, stealing food and spraying everywhere. I don't think there is an answer. You only have to look at what is going on in the rest of the world at the moment. If people can't keep children safe, what hope is there for animals?


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## LapsedGrace (Sep 30, 2014)

I'm sorry but it is illegal to take someone elses cat to get neutered without the owners permission. Yes getting your cat neuterd is the right thing to do but it isn't a legal requirment and until it is there will still be some idiots that think it's OK to let there cat room.

BUT that still does not give anybody (except the owner) the right to neuter without the owners consent. 

You can argue till your blue in the face but at the end of the day that's the law!


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## AlexUK (Dec 15, 2014)

first at all thanks for the response. Some of my other neighbours told me that they have similar problems with him and he is the only cat here who is not neutered.I will try to talk to them again and will offer to pay for it if this would be a help. As far as I know he is not registered with any vet here but I don't feel confident to take a other persons cat to the vet.

If they do disagree I will make a call to the RSPCA. Maybe they can have a word with them for a better understanding.

At the moment we leave them more in. Shelly is fine with this but Penny is unhappy and fights more as usual with her sister now.

Its a horrible situation for all of us. I just want them happy, but especially Penny suffers from his attack. Sometimes he is holding her in a corner so that she can't come in, even if she wants to. So we are keeping non stop an eye on him and i started to spray him with water. He is not very impressed when I spray him but after 30 seconds he is leaving then finally.
Fingers crossed that we can find a solution soon.

My landlord does not want that we change the door etc.. pain in the butt


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## AlexUK (Dec 15, 2014)

chillminx said:


> Just to say I do actually know of a case some years ago where a previous neighbour of mine sued another neighbour for kidnapping her tom cat and having him neutered.
> 
> Neighbour 1 (the owner) was furious and sued Neighbour 2 in the Small Claims Court for damages to her "property". Neighbour 2 told the court she'd thought the tom cat was a stray, as it had been hanging around her garden for several months, and she had been feeding it. (Neighbour 2 also told the vet the same story when she took the cat to be neutered).
> 
> The Court listened to Neighbour 2's argument and on the basis it was impossible to prove she knew the cat belonged to someone, (cat was not microchipped) Neighbour 1 lost her case. But I knew for a fact that Neighbour 2 did not believe the cat to be a stray when she took him to be neutered.


that wont work. everybody here knows him and his owners. Nobody would believe this..


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## LapsedGrace (Sep 30, 2014)

Hi Alex, I think you are going about it the right way. Just talk to the owner again and explain why its best to have her cat neutered and the problems your having with your cats and offer to pay if thats what you want to do. 

I'm not sure what the RSPCA can do but would be worth a call for some advice. 

Like you've also said, taking the cat to get neutered without the owners permission is definitely a no no. 

On the door front why don't you ask the landlord if you can buy a cheap door to put in while your there and if you ever move out you will put the old one back in? Just an idea.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

AlexUK said:


> that wont work. everybody here knows him and his owners. Nobody would believe this..


I told that story as a 'cautionary tale', I was not advising you this is what you  should do in your situation!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LapsedGrace said:


> > On the door front why don't you ask the landlord if you can buy a cheap door to put in while your there and if you ever move out you will put the old one back in? Just an idea.
> 
> 
> I already suggested that earlier, and the OP said the landlord refused.


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## LapsedGrace (Sep 30, 2014)

chillminx said:


> LapsedGrace said:
> 
> 
> > I already suggested that earlier, and the OP said the landlord refused.
> ...


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