# E-Collars are "humane and dog-friendly"



## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

According to this report!

The Truth About ECollars-They Are Humane and Dog Friendly!!! « National Institute of Canine Experts

Found it while searching for general e-collar information, as I'm analysing negative reinforcement methods in dog training for a uni assignment.

There's definitely been evidence to show that E-Collars are effective "tools" in training and behaviour modification but I must say that this statement made me shake my head and laugh out loud:

If you read the science ( which I have done) and remove the bogus studies, the evidence is irrefutable, electric collar training is the best, most humane and most dog friendly system of dog training on Earth, says Ami Moore, The Chicago Dog Coach. The electric collar is the one and only way to rehabilitate aggressive dogs. Cookie/clicker training can only increase aggressiveness-a huge problem in the method.

Scooter has had aggression issues in the past after a couple of nasty experiences and we've worked to overcome them without so much as thinking about an E-Collar! A dog that would explode into barks and even lunge if a strange man approached or interacted with him can now be petted by people we meet on walks, and lets unfamiliar faces into our house.

Thoughts?


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## arklady (Sep 14, 2010)

There is a lot of debate between those entrenched in traditional methodology and current strategies for behavior modification.

The problem with electronic collars is that there are other methods to achieve the same results.

Also, misuse in novice hands is a problem and just because a product is available or sanctioned in certain circles doesn't mean it is the right tool for the job.

The "humane and dog-friendly" phrase indicates a personal opinion versus a quantifiable fact. 

I've actually tested collars on my hand and would hesitate to use such a device on an animal after doing so--even at low levels.

In certain situations there may be cause to use it as a preventative device to save the life of an animal.

For instance, here in the United States they are used in rattlesnake avoidance training and a few other applications for fast results but I wouldn't label that use as "humane or dog-friendly."

The post appears to rely on a very old publication that was published by an electronic collar manufacturer--which is in itself a bit suspect.

I've not read that publication but it is 2010 and data from 1983 (27 years ago) is a bit archaic when a lot of changes have occurred within the behavior and training field--and in the devices and strategies used within it.

I'll see if I can dig up some other citations for you.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Er... well quite clearly all lies?

Electric shock is painful and scary. That is KNOWN FACT. Shock is precieved as aversive in every animal that feels it. 

The potential problems with shock training are numerous and varied - they include;

Malfunction or abuse - may cause electrical burns (photographic evidence of this is available).

Skin necrosis (this does not even require the dog to be shocked - simlpy wear the collar for too long!)

Fear aggression (probably the most common fallout. Dog associates scary, painful shock with whatever it was focused on at the time - the child / dog / car etc. Result = dog develops serious fear-aggro towards that stimulus).

Redirected aggression - another common one. The dog is shocked and panics, not knowing where this horrible sensation came from, and bites whoever or whatever is closest at the time (and in the dogs eye's mostly likey the cause). Often the owner / handler gets bitten here.

Learned helplessness / becoming "emotionally shut-down". The dog stops offering any behaviour and becomes clinically depressed.

Common reactions to being shocked include involuntary urination / defecation (dogs literally pi$$ing and shi!!ing themselves in fear!), screaming and yelping, jumping and even backflipping, cowering, running away, twitching, and showing all the more subtle signs of stress such as lip licknig, ears back, tail down etc.
This can be seen in virtually every case of a dog being shocked.

Lie no. 1: Shock training is humane / dog friendly

Reality: It causes severe pain, distress and fear.

Lie no. 2: The electric collar is the one and only way to rehabilitate aggressive dogs. Cookie/clicker training can only increase aggressiveness-a huge problem in the method.

Reality: There are thousands of excellent owners, rescue workers, trainers and qualified behaviourists who deal with aggressive dogs every day WITHOUT using shock collars.
Add to that, most of the qualified, registered professional behaviourists will tell you that it is considerably easier to deal with a straight case of a aggression, than it is to deal with a dog who has been shocked for his aggro. 

Simply put, in teh vast majority of cases using punishment in aggression cases makes things worse.

To claim that reward based methods cause aggression is a LIE with no evidence to back it up.

Lie no. 3: Shock training is the best method.

Reality: According to who? Oh yes, the trainer who uses ONLY this method!! Funny that....

there is actually very little evidence to suggest that any one method is better than any other, as there are so many variations.

However, shock training is very high risk, easily abused, is certainly not suitable for all dogs (if any) can not teach many behaviours (try teaching a dog to blink on command with an ecollar), and will likely cause serious behavioural fallout. Add to that that stress inhibits learning ability and memory formation. Oh, and punishment suppresses behaviour - it does not change motivation. Give it a couple of years, or change / increase the motivation and your unwanted behaviour will resurface.

OTOH, clicker training / positive reinforcement can be used successfully on ANY dog, is virtually impossible to abuse, you can not physically harm the dog, it can be used to teach ANY behaviour from behaving politely around other dogs to blinking on command, tothe complexities of competitive obediance or heelwork to music. And of course, positive reinforcement builds the dogs confidence and makes learning fun, making the dog more receptive to training and a faster learner overal. Positive reinforcement and its sister, systematic desensitisation are both known to be incrediably durable (long lasting) unlike punishment.

ALL of this is backed up by scientific and anecdotal proof.

If shock training is so humane / effective/ fantastic tell me why the movement to get shock collars banned in the UK is backed by the Kennel Club, The RSPCA, Dogs Trust, Blue Cross, Association of Pet Behaviour Councilors (APBC), Association of pet dog trainers (APDT), COAPE (Centre of Applied Pet Ethology) etc....
Why are shock collars not permitted by ANY of the service dog groups (guide dogs, hearing dogs, canine partners) etc?

My personal, overal opinion is that this moronic dog abuser - I mean "trainer" actually enjoys shocking dogs and feeling all macho and in control (typical as so many humans are obsessed with dominance - its a primate thing!). She knows she would get less clients if they believed that they could do equally well or better using a humane reward based method, or if they knew the training was nothing more than thinly disguised abuse. She is trying to sell her business, and as such is making claims about the "science" to try and sway people.

Does she actually cite and scientific evidence to back her up I wonder?? (Off to look now)


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

What a misnomer 'NICE' is in this case!


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I was thinking the same thing.... NICE, the dog related folk whose position on various matters is simply no position at all.
They don't agree with restricting or banning ANY method or training tool (dog whips? Hanging over a tree so you can kick the dog in the abdoment?). Nor do they support any restriction or ban on ear cropping and the like. 

Should change their name to Not-NICE if you ask me.

Oops, one more thing, the E is supposed to stand for "experts" right? Experts who think ear cropping allows a dog to run or find missing persons better? Experts that claim clicker training is ineffective at treating behaviour problems and increases aggression?

The whole thing is a sick joke if you ask me.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Thorne said:


> According to this report!
> 
> The Truth About ECollars-They Are Humane and Dog Friendly!!! « National Institute of Canine Experts
> 
> ...


What a ridiculous statement! I am not a dog trainer and have done little training with my dogs (just want the basics from them) but anyone with half a brain cell must see that hurting an aggressive dog is going to make it more aggressive.

They should not be allowed to publish this rubbish and label it with the name "science"


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

You know, on the wonderful WWW you can get websites proposing racism, paedophilia, female circumcision and suicide. So why even mention this bit of propaganda by the manufacturers? 
Cruelty is cruelty. Why promote it?


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> They should not be allowed to publish this rubbish and label it with the name "science"


That was my thinking, how any sane person can proclaim that giving a dog electric shocks is humane and dog-friendly?

I do need to weigh up positives and negatives of things like choke chains and e-collars as I'm evaluating them as a whole, as opposed to comparing with positive methods (only a 1000 word limit!). It's proving a bit tricky to find solid scientific evidence and reports but I'll manage it!
Just thought I'd post this due to it's mad statements and claims. 36 dogs is a very small sample and yes, 27 years was a long time ago! Borderline propaganda if you ask me


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Cruelty is cruelty. Why promote it?


If that's directed at me, I'm not promoting it. I am 100% against the use of e-collars but we can't just pretend that these "tools" and methods don't exist in the dog world.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Would that be the same Ami Moore who narrowly avoided being prosecuted for animal cruelty due to her enthusiastic use of E-Collars?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> Would that be the same Ami Moore who narrowly avoided being prosecuted for animal cruelty due to her enthusiastic use of E-Collars?


Well, that just about says it all!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Thorne said:


> If that's directed at me, I'm not promoting it. I am 100% against the use of e-collars but we can't just pretend that these "tools" and methods don't exist in the dog world.


Actually, by quoting the `for` arguments you are doing precisely that. Why? :confused1:


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## ddb (Oct 16, 2010)

just 1 word needed for title of this thread ..........and it begins with b lol


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

> *The electric collar is the one and only way to rehabilitate aggressive dogs. Cookie/clicker training can only increase aggressiveness-a huge problem in the method.*


Absolute bull!  Having rehabbed more than a few dog aggressive and also human aggressive dogs in my time I can honestly say that if they cannot do it without using torture devices then they need to go back to the board and do some learning PDQ! :cursing: 

As for 'Experts', that's the joke of the century obviously! 

:mad5:


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Actually, by quoting the `for` arguments you are doing precisely that. Why? :confused1:


Because a biased report is one that fails. I am not at University to fail my modules so I am going to evaluate these methods thoroughly and I already know that the conclusion will be that the cons outweigh the pros.


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

I find it hard to believe that anyone ever thought that giving a dog an electric shock was acceptable. I mean, how many people would like to be on the receiving end of one??? I know I wouldn't!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

For those who are so anti e-collar, can I just ask what you stance is against other so called training devices that are associated with injury, are you aware of them? If not, why not?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

jetsmum said:


> I find it hard to believe that anyone ever thought that giving a dog an electric shock was acceptable. I mean, how many people would like to be on the receiving end of one??? I know I wouldn't!


Not that I think giving dogs random electrical shocks is acceptable, but by your statement, do we abandon electric fencing for livestock?


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2010)

I have had a few conversations about these collars with the official UK supplier of the Dogtra Ecollar.

He is very well respected in the working dog community and has no desire to see dogs hurt or harmed.

I have also seen the DVD on there proper usage and it clearly states they are not to be used of deterring aggression under any circumstances.

I would love for him to come on here and educate some of you so called dog trainers who are quick to state they are wrong (and in the wrong hands they are) but never seem to come up with the right answers as to an alternative and if you think a treat, a clicker or a long lead is a way of teaching a highly driven, game orientated working dog to not chase, you are in cloud cockoo land.

These devices have a range of 1.5mile, in effect a very long lead. The operator can give the dog every opportunity to come back whilst on a scent. If after a certain time they refuse then yes they get zapped.

I know of one serving police dog that was returned to the breeder because of his consistent chasing of game that could not be cured. One session with the collar and some rabbits and he was back doing his job.

To totally write these devices off as cruel is wrong and no doubt due to ignorance of the facts.

Now I have avoided these post in the past because I will not be drawn into it with the fluff brigade and I will not be drawn into this any further. Said my piece, my opinion and Im entitled to it and dont ever say I am cruel, I love my dogs and have not used an ecollar but I would if the game chasing got out of hand purely to protect the dog and not because I have a sadistic nature.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Have never used an e collar and never would but some are just vibrating and not the awful things you see on some of the progs. If you go on an American dog forum you'll see they use them and prong collars a lot, also electric fencing - awful! 

Have to agree though that if it's a dog safety issue - like Daddy and the rattle snake, then it's fair to use them. However lots of people in the States use them for ordinary dog training.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I think this is a very interesting topic. Personally, I think they are a quick remedy for some behaviour problems, that _can_ work if used properly. However, as has already been said, there's other ways of solving even the worst of behaviour problems.

For aggressive cases, we want to make the dog understand that there's no threat to be had from any other dogs or people. Using an e-collar can make them decrease aggressive behaviour- a form of positive punishment- but only because the dog learns that the behaviour is detrimental to them- i.e. it hurts! However, this may make them very wary of dogs or people, rather than building their trust towards dogs/people. So, therefore, it makes no sense in my opinion on a purely behavioural level.

On the other hand, for situations where you want to keep your dog away from dangerous situations (rattlesnakes, roads etc.,), if there's a serious risk of you dog getting hurt due to their current behaviour, there is more sense in using an e-collar as it will make the dog never go near that stimulus. *However*, yet again, there are much more humane ways of solving these problems, such as using sound aversion. It's still unpleasant for the dog, but not painful necessarily.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

I'm on the fence with E-Collars. I think there IS a place for them, for some situations and some dogs.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> It's still unpleasant for the dog, but not painful necessarily.


Ah, but how do you know a particular dog would prefer one sort of "unpleasant" over another??

This hypothetical dog might well find sound aversion FAR more unpleasant than a quick stim from an E-Collar.

Just playing Devil's Advocate


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Can i just ask,do people think vibrating collars are also bad? As i've never used an E-collar or a vibrating one,i'm thinking if they both do the same job,why would anyone need to use an E-collar?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Vibrating collar didn't work with Bruce and his barking - just surprised him and on he went. It was one that worked when he barked but also worked when Britches barked so no good for what I wanted. Maybe they work on some but I found treats for being quiet more successful.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> Can i just ask,do people think vibrating collars are also bad? As i've never used an E-collar or a vibrating one,i'm thinking if they both do the same job,why would anyone need to use an E-collar?


I personally have no real issue with vibrating collars, I know that a few members on here have used them with deaf dogs and a friend of mine used one for her dog's barking after they received a noise warning. Apparently the dog only wore it for a day and it was effective. I would never, ever use one on a nervous dog like my Breeze though, she seems to be scared of pretty much everything poor darling.
I can imagine a vibrate collar might work to get Scooter's attention offlead once he's got the scent of something but it's a lot of money to potentially waste so I haven't tried one (he's a long line dog).

Someone mentioned other pain-inducing tools? The more I read about choke chains the more concerned I feel about their use, the internal damage they can cause is just awful.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> I think this is a very interesting topic. Personally, I think they are a quick remedy for some behaviour problems, that _can_ work if used properly. However, as has already been said, there's other ways of solving even the worst of behaviour problems.
> 
> For aggressive cases, we want to make the dog understand that there's no threat to be had from any other dogs or people. Using an e-collar can make them decrease aggressive behaviour- a form of positive punishment- but only because the dog learns that the behaviour is detrimental to them- i.e. it hurts! However, this may make them very wary of dogs or people, rather than building their trust towards dogs/people. So, therefore, it makes no sense in my opinion on a purely behavioural level.
> 
> On the other hand, for situations where you want to keep your dog away from dangerous situations (rattlesnakes, roads etc.,), if there's a serious risk of you dog getting hurt due to their current behaviour, there is more sense in using an e-collar as it will make the dog never go near that stimulus. *However*, yet again, there are much more humane ways of solving these problems, such as using sound aversion. It's still unpleasant for the dog, but not painful necessarily.


We seem to share the same views; they're not humane, they're not dog-friendly and I would never use one but for modifying certain behaviours they can work.

It's a shame that so many people just want a quick-fix to their dog's problems as opposed to a kinder alternative which will almost certainly take longer to work through.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

It was me who mentioned about 'other' devices, and while we're on the subject, this was sent to me and I posted it on a thread in the dog chat section, about haltis and head collar type devices:

I have posted about my opinions on head halters before, which generally go against everyone else's, but I mean no offence and I'm not criticising anyone.

Dogs don't like muzzle-clamping head-halters such as Halti, Gentle Leader, Canny Collar and Gencon because the clamping action for one, is painful, and for two, makes the dog feel vulnerable. I hate them, and so do the VAST majority of dogs.

Fixed-action head-halters such as Dogmatic and the PAH own brand are far more comfortable for the dog and still give the handler the added bonus of being able to 'steer' the dog's head.

Harnesses - Mekuti* and Walkeeze are great non-pull options. Mekuti works by setting the dog off-balance when it pulls in order for it work out that in order TO balance, it needs not to pull. The Walkeeze has the chest strap in such a position as to interfere with the dog's gait, so hence it doesn't pull - basically, it can't take such a big stride. This is why Guide Dogs in harnesses don't pull - the chest piece acts in the same way as the Walkeeze. A normal collar with a double-ended lead slung low around the chest has the same effect too.

And whatever tool is used, training needs to go hand in hand, so positively reinforcing the dog with praise and the occasional treat in conjunction with a cue such as 'close' when it is walking beside without pulling.

To be clear, there are only TWO TYPES of head-halter/collar, regardless of brand:

MUZZLE-CLAMPING TYPE ~ the tightening action of these head-halters CAUSES THE DOG PAIN, although the manufacturers will describe it as 'pressure', however, dogs will move into pressure (opposition reflex) so if this were the case, they wouldn't be effective in stopping the dog from pulling. By tightening around the muzzle they cause the dog pain at various points on its head ~ THIS IS WHY DOGS HATE THEM ~ and if used on an aggressive dog it can even make the aggression worse. Muzzle-clamping head-halters include the brands Halti, Gentle Leader (which is far from gentle), GenCon and Canny Collar.

FIXED-ACTION TYPE ~ these head-halters have no moving parts, which means that they don't tighten around the dog's muzzle and head and DO NOT cause pain - they very simply give better control because the dog is being led by its head. This type of head-halter is the ONLY type that, if one of my clients really needs to use one, I am prepared to recommend. Brands include PAH own brand and Dogmatic. The Dogmatic is very well-designed and doesn't ride up under the dog's eyes - the makers actually designed the halter for their own Dobermans. Dobermans and other long necked breeds often suffer irreparable cervical spine (neck bones) damage from the use of muzzle-clamping head-halters, which just goes to show how much better, safer and kinder the fixed-action Dogmatic is compared to the muzzle-clamping types.


This info is from a qualified trainer/behaviourist, and whilst I don't agree with all of her posts on training, she is very good, and I do agree with an awful lot of what she says. The reason I've posted, and I hope no-one minds the debate opening up a little, if not perhaps a new thread would be better? But no-one thinks twice about sticking a halti or gentle leader on their dog, they are freely available to buy and many use them rather than train their dogs or simply because they can't, not so much on this forum but generally speaking. I know some on here use head collars as a 'back up' as it were, and I know a couple of members are going to change and buy a different type after reading this information on the other thread. But because they are simply straps of fabric and some fastenings, we perceive these things very differently to an e-collar, and yet an e-collar isn't on permanently, it's used to try and prevent certain behaviours at a particular point.

I asked as well about livestock fencing, because my landlord keeps pigs, and has electric fencing around it. Several times a day you will hear one of his dogs, usually Molly, yelp, because she's just trying to reach underneath to get to the pig nuts and can't quite manage it. The fences aren't that new, they've had them a while and yet the daft dog still insists on weighing up it's chances. It obviously thinks a pig nut is worth it.

I'm posting and dashing as I've got to get to the post office, but, just to sort of summarise what my thoughts are, I don't like e-collars, but I have seen them used to help prevent dogs with fear aggression, and dogs that have livestock issues, in the hands of a trainer who knows what they're doing. Now some might say that anyone calling themselves a dog trainer shouldn't necessarily resort to the use of an e-collar, perhaps you'd be right, the dogs I'm thinking of were certainly not for the faint hearted, that's for sure.

But, I think we kid ourselves an awful lot about what's acceptable to the actual dog (not us), a citronella collar for example, doesn't ring any alarm bells with us, and yet must be awful for the dog with such a strong sense of smell, worse than an e-collar possibly in that the smell will linger for a longer period of time. As I've posted above, there are so called training aids available to buy, that are used by an awful lot of people that don't just cause pain, but can cause injury to our dogs, halti's have been associated with cervical spine injuries and yet no-one's calling for them to be banned.

I personally hate to see any training aid or method that causes discomfort, am I against e-collars, yes in general, but have to say, having seen dogs with terrible problems trained using them and the problems eased or resolved and using other training methods alongside the use of them, I'm not against them in that particular situation.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

@ Sleeping Lion:

I agree with your thoughts, especially on the issue of haltis and GenCons etc. A lot of dogs do not enjoy have these put on and need to be introduced to them slowly and very positively. I'd much rather spend the time training my dog to walk well on a loose lead, which, despite it being a very prominent problem for many dog owners, can be fixed very easily given the right method and time.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Thorne said:


> If you read the science ( which I have done) and remove the bogus studies, the evidence is irrefutable, electric collar training is the best, most humane and most dog friendly system of dog training on Earth, says Ami Moore, The Chicago Dog Coach. The electric collar is the one and only way to rehabilitate aggressive dogs.
> Cookie/clicker training can only increase aggressiveness - a huge problem in the method.


Chicago Reader | Who Should You Trust to Train Your Dog? The arrest of Chicago 'dog whisperer' Ami Moore for cruelty to animals raises questions about an unregulated industry. By Tasneem Paghdiwala

The Dog Whisperer Walks | Feature | Chicago Reader

she credits the founder of the Sit-Means S*it franchise-company, who taught her the 2-shock-collar method, 
during a weekend seminar: one collar on the neck, the second on the 'waist' with the electrodes on the belly - 
the near-hairless abdomen below the navel.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> [shock collars] have a range of 1.5-mile, in effect a very long lead.
> The operator can give the dog every opportunity to come back whilst on a scent. If after a certain time
> they refuse then yes they get zapped.


OMD, a one-and-one-half mile lead or shock-collar transmit/receive capability is pointless - 
*if U cannot see the dog, U cannot punish the dog - as U do not know what U are punishing*, 
and accuracy is what the shock-collar is sold on - accuracy of 'correction' AKA punishment.

here's a two-mile reach - 
Electronic Training Collar - SportDOG SD-3200

here's the best place to use a shock-collar which reaches 2-miles to shock the dog: 
http://www.solarnavigator.net/geogr...NGcDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

here's another, but only at low-tide - 
http://photos.igougo.com/images/p21...MTIDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> *bold added - *
> [S_L is quoting a trainer - ]
> 
> To be clear, there are only TWO TYPES of head-halter/collar, regardless of brand:
> ...


i have used *3 types of headcollars - Haltis, Gentle Leaders, and those i made myself, 
for my own dog - and my home-made version had no moving-parts, either.*

as can be clearly seen from this photo, the Halti or a GL only *closes* if the nose is lifted. 
Pet Planet Error

if the dog is not attempting to bite, there is no reason to elevate the nose + close the noseband. 
also this is no more painful than if i hold the dog's nose closed with my fingers - 
altho i would not suggest that as a control or training-method, as it teaches the dog to evade hands.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> OMD, a one-and-one-half mile lead or shock-collar transmit/receive capability is pointless -
> *if U cannot see the dog, U cannot punish the dog - as U do not know what U are punishing*,
> and accuracy is what the shock-collar is sold on - accuracy of 'correction' AKA punishment.
> 
> ...


First off, *they are not meant to be used as a "punishment", they are to distract from the chase.*

Secondly, I have been on the top of a very large hill above a valley when a deer sprung out of the brush and my dog went after it, down the hill across the valley and up the other side. In effect they were about 5miles away and *I could see them both the whole time.*

So you see, things are not always one dimensional.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> First off, *they are not meant to be used as a punishment, they are to distract from the chase.*
> 
> Secondly, I have been on the top of a very large hill above a valley when a deer sprung out of the brush and my dog went after it, down the hill across the valley and up the other side. In effect they were about 5miles away and *I could see them both the whole time.*
> 
> So you see, things are not always one dimensional.


"Punishment" in a dog behaviour context is the introduction or withdrawal of a stimulus to decrease behaviour. So, yes, e-collars are a form of punishment...positive punishment to be exact. You are presenting the dog with a stimulus that aims to decrease his desire to chase.

Things are not always one dimensional.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> "Punishment" in a dog behaviour context is the introduction or withdrawal of a stimulus to decrease behaviour. So, yes, e-collars are a form of punishment...positive punishment to be exact. You are presenting the dog with a stimulus that aims to decrease his desire to chase.
> 
> Things are not always one dimensional.


Quite.

Stimulate, distract, recall and lots of praise which is a far cry from right take that you b****d ZZZZZZZZZap and ZZZZZZZZZZap again!

I happen to think crating a dog is cruel and the most un natural thing anyone can do to a dog. If you cannot resolve issues you have with a dog without resorting to imprisoning it over night or even for a few hours, some thing aint right.

I know if I was very naughty (which I am not) I think I would rather anything other than being cooped up in a cage!

Now theres a can of worms opened :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> I happen to think crating a dog is cruel and the most un natural thing
> anyone can do to a dog. If you cannot resolve issues you have with a dog without resorting
> to imprisoning it over night or even for a few hours, some thing aint right.
> 
> I know if I was very naughty (which I am not) I think I would rather anything other than being cooped up in a cage!


good idea - we can go back to, _*rub the pup's nose in the stool or urine, scruff the pup and throw 
her or him [gently] outside, meanwhile scolding the pup for soiling indoors. *_

people DO have to work - what do U suggest, instead, O-M-D?

better yet- since confinement is cruel, let's allow all dogs to roam at will... yes, i know that some dogs 
will get into trouble inevitably, like herders chasing livestock and joggers, and hounds harassing caged bunnies or chasing and killing free-range chickens, and so on. 
_*but it's not natural to confine a dog - they should *do what comes naturally*, 
breed at will, run at large or stay at home, as they please. *_  
good luck selling that at the next Council meeting... 
- t


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> good idea - we can go back to, _*rub the pup's nose in the stool or urine, scruff the pup and throw
> her or him [gently] outside, meanwhile scolding the pup for soiling indoors. *_
> 
> people DO have to work - what do U suggest, instead, O-M-D?
> ...


Good idea- when the pup is bursting for a pee or a crap we can just shove it in a crate, is that what you are saying? Some how I dont think so. 

How about doing all the right things which I am sure the techniques Im thinking of, you know of! 

Going to work is not excuse to mentally torture your dog! :

Yes lets let the dogs roam at will around the house, now that is a great idea. :thumbup:

And do I detect a little acknowledgement that ecollars have there place there? O-M-G-A 

As for the rest of the sensationalist BS /FACEPALM/ :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The O'Mali's Dad said:


> Good idea- when the pup is bursting for a pee or a crap
> we can just shove it in a crate, is that what you are saying? Some how I dont think so.


i have multiple posts here... 
Housetraining your pup or older dog - Pet Forums Community


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i have multiple posts here...
> Housetraining your pup or older dog - Pet Forums Community


I dont doubt that 

But what has that got to do with your statement *we can go back to, rub the pup's nose in the stool or urine, scruff the pup and throw 
her or him [gently] outside, meanwhile scolding the pup for soiling indoors*.?
And my opinion that putting a dog in a cage is as cruel as using an ecollar in the wrong circumstances???

So quite obviously you know there other techniques other that shoving them in a crate just the same as I know there are other ways to train a dog other than using an ecollar for the wrong reasons!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Dunno about everyone else but I NEVER put my dogs in their crates whilst they are 


The O'Mali's Dad said:


> bursting for a pee or a crap


  In fact, my dogs very often wander off and get into their crates themselves - so cruel those crates are!:001_cool: I have never used crates to housetrain a dog and I have had a lotta dogs! I use my brain and time, patience, that sorta stuff to train a dog. Crates just give them a safe place to be whilst I cannot keep an eye on them. 

Anyway, let's stop sidestepping the issue huh and get back to discussing the ethics of e-collar training.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Dunno about everyone else but I NEVER put my dogs in their crates whilst they are   *In fact, my dogs very often wander off and get into their crates themselves -* so cruel those crates are!:001_cool: I have never used crates to housetrain a dog and I have had a lotta dogs! I use my brain and time, patience, that sorta stuff to train a dog. Crates just give them a safe place to be whilst I cannot keep an eye on them.
> 
> Anyway, let's stop sidestepping the issue huh and get back to discussing the ethics of e-collar training.


Send a child to his/her room with a teddy or blanky and they will also grow up seeing that as a "comfort" in older age. 

What I am talking about is putting the dog in a cage as a training tool from anything from being scared of visitors to baking at night.

I would say its better to force the issue with visitors and keep them with you at night and tell them to STFU regarding just my two examples above.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> ...let's ...get back to discussing the ethics of e-collar training.


here ya go - 
SPCA article on Choke Chains & Shock Collars
9.2-kb PDF-file link:
http://tinyurl.com/2634e5n

title:
Choke and Shock Collars: Obedience Training or Physical Punishment?
pubd March 13, 2000 by the San Francisco SPCA, Calif.

EXCERPT - ***Edited for brevity***


> Happily for dogs... discussion [of] choke, pinch, and shock collars is increasingly... academic...
> alternative [to train or manage] even extra-large dogs are steadily gaining in popularity.
> [dog-]Halters... based on the same principles as halters for horses... achieve terrific control
> mechanically... by changing leverage... rather than [via] pain.
> ...




NOTE:
that drop would be over 1999 - surveying local vets for # euths due to problem-behaviors.
emphasis [***] added, tmp.

ADDENDUM from the intro and close remarks in separate boxes: same source:
-- EDITED For Brevity --


> INTRO -
> --------------------
> Choke and shock collars are designed to stop dogs from pulling on a leash or barking through the
> application of pain. The dog stops pulling or barking for one reason - because it hurts.
> ...


CLOSE -


> The San Francisco SPCA believes:
> that dogs have the right to be trained and helped to fit into our society with the most gentle methods
> available. And that dogs have a right to be free from physical and mental punishment.


STATEMENT + PROPOSAL -
===============================
tho shock is specified only re barking, i am sure if i phoned and asked or wrote the SF-SPCA trainers, 
i would be told that low-level shock used in TEACHING or INSTALLING behaviors is also the use of pain -

*if anyone would like me to do so* [phone or e-mail] *let me know HERE - on the forum*; 
i will specifically get permit to publish the answer word for word, or better yet i;ll ask the trainer 
or behaviorist [B-Sci] to join us, and type the answer themselves, above their signature.

open to suggestion, and awaiting direction -
terry


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Hello,

Well I expect it's not going to be a surprise to you that I am totally against e-collars.

I really don't think there is ever any need for them. (J) IMO, they are cruel, unnecessary, brutish and a very simplistic "medieval" way of training dogs. You would think that we as a species and supposedly intelligent race had moved beyond zapping dogs in a primitive attempt at "training" and behaviour modification!

One of the main "examples" that has frustrated me most in this thread was the anecdote provided by one poster, posted about an police dog that had a problem with predatory (compulsive) chasing and so was being distracted from working. Apparently a few zaps with an e-collar and the dog was sorted :confused1: :frown:

Anyone who has ever had to study, research or indeed work with dogs with predatory and specifically compulsive type chasing behaviours will be very switched on to the correlation between high arousal and chasing behaviours and perhaps more importantly long-term stressors in the dogs life and compulsive chasing.

Obviously what must be considered is, that regardless of stress and arousal levels, chasing behaviours are in themselves great fun for dogs and incredibly reinforcing for dogs. The main reinforcement is of course internal reinforcement. Dogs inherit instinctive abilities and chasing behaviours that form a part of the inherited predatory hunting sequence, which naturally for obvious reasons is an evolutionarily adaptive behaviour. Chasing was a crucial behaviour for hunting and hunting was crucial for finding valuable and scarce food resources. 
Considering this in itself you can see how the use of e-collars in dissuading chasing- HARD WIRED behaviours is likely to be not only highly ineffective but totally illogical, and rather a waste of time.

The main "internal reinforcement" with chasing behaviour comes due to motor patterns in response to a buzz of dopamine which cues a feeling of pleasure. This is what cues them to perform the behaviour- it is incredibly reinforcing and dogs learn to associate this with the buzz and enjoyment they get from performing the behaviour.
The behaviour makes them feel good , in much the same way that behaviours like chewing do.
This is why dogs that are exposed to long-term stressors in their daily environment or even short term but consistently reoccuring ones will actively seek out emotional improvers to balance out their emotional "bank balance"- it brings their stress levels down. Hence high drive, stressed dogs will often actively seek out opportunities to chase! Similarly dogs may react with a chase response to a specific trigger. (I knew of a stressy dog, who when he became confused in training about what was being asked of him (lots of inconsistency previously with training) would run off into the undergrowth chasing scents and bunnies.) Chase behaviours may often be specific to one chase target (squirrels for example) or may be more generalised. But the key factor is that the dogs actively seek out opportunities to chase.

So how would using an e-collar affect this behaviour? Well assuming that the behaviour is linked to stress (and often high arousal) shocking a dog will actually be counter-productive. You've added another stressor into the dogs life and taken away a coping strategy/emotion improver and paired it with something horrible. That poor dog! 
The dog is likely to act in either one of the following ways:

- The dog will learn that the chasing of a specific target is paired with shocks and so will actively avoid this target and display calming signals etc... However their emotional balance will have been affected, and in a dog that is motivated to chase anyway, they are highly likely to seek out opportunities for a dopamine boost as a coping strategy for the original stressors and now the new one (you shocking them!).So the chase behaviour will likely be redirected onto another target! In essence you have actually made the problem worse- you've not targeted the actual issues (stressors and coping stategies) you've only made the problem a whole lot worse for the dog. 
- In other dogs, sometimes those with a lower chase drive, the dog will learn the association between the shocks in response to chasing the chase target and will avoid chasing said object and generalize this to all similar targets! Brilliant! The handler thinks they've cracked it- the dog no longer chases. In fact what they've left themselves with is a dog that very stressed as they've got no opportunity for emotion improvers to try and recover/deal with stressors. Whenever the dog is presented with the previous chase target it experiences internal conflict, still wants to chase but wants to avoid shocks. That's one stressed dog! Dogs like these will often seek out other emotion improver activities like chewing for instance, or provided shocking is inconsistent enough or even disappears with the original chase target, may well regress and begin chasing again. If this is not they case and they are not "investing" in other emotion improver activities you are left with a highly stressed dog, that feels it has no ability to cope in it's environment. It doesn't feel safe. It is constantly exposed to stress and this is where you may see reactivity on the part of the dog. The poor thing can't help.

So how can we actually cure the behaviour?

Well first of all FFS don't use an e-collar or similar aversives! It's so counterproductive with issues like this!

1. Look at removing as many stressors as you can from the dogs daily environment.

(in some dogs the above may even be enough to stop compulsive chasing, provided you are effective in removing said stressors)

2. Avoid places where you know you will be giving the dog the opportunity to chase, the target object. Set them up to succeed. Non-rehearsal of the behaviour means it isn't reinforced and if a behaviour stops being reinforced it may extinguish.

3. For compulsive chasers, gradually work on exposing them to low level chase triggers (on a long line- setting them up to succeed!) and work on concentration on you and impulse control!

4. Teach a chase recall.
More info in this fantastic article by David Ryan (ex-police dog trainer who doesn't use aversives :thumbup
How do I stop my dog chasing? - David Ryan CCAB

He also has a book called "Stop! How to control predatory chasing in dogs."; which I have read and would highly recommend if you want to understand why dogs really chase and how to solve compulsive predatory chasing behaviours :thumbup:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Excellent post lemmsy! Thank you. :thumbup:


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Excellent post lemmsy! Thank you. :thumbup:


Thankies


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> 1. ...[remove] as many stressors as you can from the dogs daily environment.
> 
> ...


love it - especially the part in BOLD :thumbup:


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