# Losing my mind



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

i am afraid I am starting losing my mind dear fellows.

I had cats since I was born, so took care of more than a dozen during my whole life - pets from my parents and mine when I moved out and got married- and I swear that I have never seen anything like this before.
Ok, fair enough I never had a pedigree cat before, but I couldn’t imagine it would be any different. ( is still a cat!?)

Gabi is relentless with the meowing, howling and climbing our legs in a frisson of someone who just got released from a cage and spent days without any food at all.
We cannot go in the kitchen that the screaming starts and for such a small kitten is scary. Even if we are sat at the couch only having plain tea or juice she acts desperate and starts to scream and climb our legs  :Wideyed

She is with us since last Saturday and is eating very good wet food (Lilly’s kitchen) I even overfed her yesterday that she pooped the whole day ( but not diarrhoea) so today I am feeding her scheduled and controlled portions.
She ate at 7:30 am this morning and now at 12:30 (I am giving her 1/4 of the LK kitten tray). Is it enough? The tray is 85g.

I am taking her to the vet as well as I think something's wrong with her.
The breeder clearly didn’t have any boundaries with her as she told me she was feeding her in the kitchen ( probably off the pan whilst she was cooking) and also my kitty was sleeping with her on her bed!!

I know that by now some of you are thinking that she wants attention but I assure you that is not the case. She stays with me the whole day playing, snoozing at the couch and always on my lap receiving loads of cuddles as I am having a time off from work until the 15th.

What am I supposed to do?
I am so disheartened to be honest.
The good part is that she sleeps soundly throughout the night on her room.
Can someone please SOS?
Thank you a lot :Hungover
X


----------



## LJC675 (Apr 24, 2017)

That doesn't sound like very much food. Are you doing 1/4 tray 4 times a day or how many meals?
She really should be fed as much as she wants at a young age (not sure how old she is). This doesn't mean no discipline, you can still feed her on a schedule at frequent times but give her as much as she will eat. 

My 2 have always had a schedule, never had kitchen scraps or tit bits, but when they were younger they were given whatever they would eat at each meal. Kittens need a surprisingly large amount of food.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

LJC675 said:


> That doesn't sound like very much food. Are you doing 1/4 tray 4 times a day or how many meals?
> She really should be fed as much as she wants at a young age (not sure how old she is). This doesn't mean no discipline, you can still feed her on a schedule at frequent times but give her as much as she will eat.
> 
> My 2 have always had a schedule, never had kitchen scraps or tit bits, but when they were younger they were given whatever they would eat at each meal. Kittens need a surprisingly large amount of food.


Thank you for your input. She is only 11 weeks old and I am afraid it's not hunger as yesterday I overfed her and she still was acting desperate with human food and when we were stepping in the kitchen.

But just to be clear today I started giving 1/4 of the tray in the morning when my fiancé left for work - therefore she woke up. And at 12:30 I gave another 1/4.
So for now she had half of the 85gr tray.
Ofc I could always give more if it's the case but 
I believe is behavioural as she has no boundaries at all ( also the breeder spoiled her rotten) she almost acts aggressively with the climbing and screaming and I am afraid in inviting friends in a near future to have dinner here.

As I've said.. I am used to cats, but not this way.
I feel awful. For her firstly and me and my fiancé.


----------



## jadeh31 (Aug 31, 2017)

I have a similar aged kitten - he's now about 20 weeks - had him since 13. To start with I was giving half a tray of lilys 4 times a day but now it's not enough so he gets a full one twice a day and half twice a day so 3 in total. I think I may need to start increasing it soon. How long have you had her? My boy wasn't quite as extreme as yours seems to be but he was always climbing on us and following us and shouting at us sometimes. I think it was insecurity as he was young and in a new environment. He's now totally settled down and only gets excited when I get his favourite toys out or it's food time


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

jadeh31 said:


> I have a similar aged kitten - he's now about 20 weeks - had him since 13. To start with I was giving half a tray of lilys 4 times a day but now it's not enough so he gets a full one twice a day and half twice a day so 3 in total. I think I may need to start increasing it soon. How long have you had her? My boy wasn't quite as extreme as yours seems to be but he was always climbing on us and following us and shouting at us sometimes. I think it was insecurity as he was young and in a new environment. He's now totally settled down and only gets excited when I get his favourite toys out or it's food time


Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate it.
I might increase to half a tray then is not a problem, but I still believe the breeder did all the wrong things so early in her little
Life.
Now she is sound asleep here. But I know if I get up to do anything in the kitchen ( even if it's wash up) she will start with the screaming.
I collected her last Saturday, so it's just been a few days but can put anyone over the edge as I am home the whole day. Have no kids and am used to a quiet household.
I will pray that is just insecurity as your boy and this will pass.
X


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

When I first got Dexter I hadn't had a kitten since I was a teenager and had forgotten how needy they can be, I was quite overwhelmed at first so don't panic 
In time Gabi will become more independent but for now she will continue to follow you about and yell, don't let it worry you.
I do think she needs more food tbh. I understand Lily's Kitchen is pretty pricey so you could look into other kitten foods and use a rotation of perhaps 3 or 4. One small meal of poached chicken or white fish a day can also be given for variety. Please keep us posted how you get on x


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I don't think it sounds like very much food to me and would up it personally. You could even try offering her a raw chicken wing ( just the tip, or that and the next section) which should keep her occupied for a bit longer.
Behaviour wise it is tricky....it sounds as if you are finding her personality very hard to deal with. I too have had cats most of my life but it took me a long time to get used to the hyper-activity and willfulness of Millie who is some kind of Turkish Angora cross and deaf to boot. I am afraid I gave up trying to keep cats off my bed many years ago but I do know others on here who train the cat to sleep in a separate room. The vocalisation may or may not calm down.....I love a chatty cat but don't know if I could handle the Oriental level of volume and it sounds like your girl has a lot to say for herself.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

I have to agree with all the others , I would expect a kitten of Gabi's age to be eating at least 200 gms of food over 24 hours.
She is growing like a weed and will have a bottomless pit for a stomach, but its a small stomach so needs fed little and often .
If you can I would feed her a minimum of 5 times a day small amounts ,if she eats it all give her a little more.
It is practically impossible to overfeed a kitten so let her be the judge as to whether she is hungry or not.
As for the screaming and attention seeking I honestly think this is just her trying to get you to realise she is hungry.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

moggie14 said:


> When I first got Dexter I hadn't had a kitten since I was a teenager and had forgotten how needy they can be, I was quite overwhelmed at first so don't panic
> In time Gabi will become more independent but for now she will continue to follow you about and yell, don't let it worry you.
> I do think she needs more food tbh. I understand Lily's Kitchen is pretty pricey so you could look into other kitten foods and use a rotation of perhaps 3 or 4. One small meal of poached chicken or white fish a day can also be given for variety. Please keep us posted how you get on x





Paddypaws said:


> I don't think it sounds like very much food to me and would up it personally. You could even try offering her a raw chicken wing ( just the tip, or that and the next section) which should keep her occupied for a bit longer.
> Behaviour wise it is tricky....it sounds as if you are finding her personality very hard to deal with. I too have had cats most of my life but it took me a long time to get used to the hyper-activity and willfulness of Millie who is some kind of Turkish Angora cross and deaf to boot. I am afraid I gave up trying to keep cats off my bed many years ago but I do know others on here who train the cat to sleep in a separate room. The vocalisation may or may not calm down.....I love a chatty cat but don't know if I could handle the Oriental level of volume and it sounds like your girl has a lot to say for herself.


Thank you very much for your replies.
I can appreciate completely if it's not enough food and already gave her more at 3 pm.
Also I went for a snooze of one hour because I was feeling so overwhelmed and guilty, scared that it will be like this forever. And in this aspect she is amazing: I've put her in her room, closed my door; she did meow, but very little and low for just the first moments.

She is very clever and understands and respects that when she is placed in her room and I close my bedroom door is time to sleep.
Today was the first day ( during the day) that I did that and I am so glad it worked! Feeling refreshed now and your replies helped so much in giving me insights and also hope after all she is still a kitten who probably was brought up in a very disorganised environment.

(Does breeders give food from the table like that to the cats they are going to sell and also do them usually sleep with all their kittens on their bed?? Don't get me wrong I always slept with my cats on my bed.. sometimes all 3 at once when I lived in Brazil, but sounds odd to me that breeders will do that)

A lil bit of my day to day since I got her: I am up with her when my fiancé leaves for work at 7;30 and am caring for her the whole day as if she was a human baby since Sunday, like I just go to the bathroom, leave her unattended for 2 minutes and come back to the lounge.. but the reality is that I have always slept in until 9:30 when off work so this didn't help with my semi meltdown.
My apologies!
Perhaps I will ask my fiancé just put her in her room after he feeds her so she sleeps a bit more as well.

@moggie14 I didn't know I could rotate foods? This will not give her the runs?
I've bought grau and animonda carny at zoologia and just waiting for my order.
Lilly's Kitchen is ok for now as I've bought only a half dozen of trays as it's the only brand (that is complete food) available in my local pet store.

She is very clingy, just now I couldn't type as she was trying to head but my hands and started licking my face.. we better find some common ground as of the 15th I return to work..
Do you guys think I should give half a tray 4 times a day then? Even if the poop gets Softer as it is today?
I will cook the whole chicken and freeze just for her as well as I would be squeamish to give her a raw wing. 

There's this thing that changes from breed to breed to as well I know: vocalisation.
My cats were not vocal at all, they would
Meow only when angry like bath time etc.

Anyways I wrote a lot and she slept on my lap now.. I dread the time that I need to go to the kitchen but we will need a MO to train her on that.
Thanks a lot again
Bless you


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

buffie said:


> I have to agree with all the others , I would expect a kitten of Gabi's age to be eating at least 200 gms of food over 24 hours.
> She is growing like a weed and will have a bottomless pit for a stomach, but its a small stomach so needs fed little and often .
> If you can I would feed her a minimum of 5 times a day small amounts ,if she eats it all give her a little more.
> It is practically impossible to overfeed a kitten so let her be the judge as to whether she is hungry or not.
> As for the screaming and attention seeking I honestly think this is just her trying to get you to realise she is hungry.


I would love this to be the reason, that would be simpler even when I would feel awfully guilty.
But already happened that she was full and happy after her meal (yesterday for example when she ate a lot) but when we started dealing with our food in the kitchen all hell broke lose.
I will give the chicken tomorrow, up the food and give 5 times a day to see.
But I am honestly scared it will be like that all over again.. I should film her as it is so intense and she gets nearly aggressive even when we just fed her.

God forbid I am letting her hungry. But I must say I always free fed my cats in Brazil with royal canin as I didn't know better so they would eat exactly the amount they needed.

Will keep you guys posted!
For now look her here on my lap so chill.
Thanks x


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Why don't you try putting her in her own room with food while you are dealing with human food? I always had a kitten room before my babies left for their new homes and they were in there if anything dangerous or otherwise inappropriate for them was going on. Don't forget she would not normally have left her mother and siblings yet.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Ouicestmoi said:


> @moggie14 I didn't know I could rotate foods? This will not give her the runs?
> I've bought grau and animonda carny at zoologia and just waiting for my order.
> Lilly's Kitchen is ok for now as I've bought only a half dozen of trays as it's the only brand (that is complete food) available in my local pet store.


Yes it's absolutely fine to rotate foods. Just introduce a new food gradually, a little at a time to gauge if it suits. It's good for them to have a variety of different brands, flavours and textures. It can also be a God send if one of their fave foods gets discontinued or a recipe change and they suddenly go off it!


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

QOTN said:


> Why don't you try putting her in her own room with food while you are dealing with human food? I always had a kitten room before my babies left for their new homes and they were in there if anything dangerous or otherwise inappropriate for them was going on. Don't forget she would not normally have left her mother and siblings yet.


That's a great idea! Thank you.
Today I've put her in her room for me to have lunch but without her food. It was a 5 minutes mayhem!! She was screaming as if someone was killing her and I had to eat my food as it was liquid 

Truth about her mom and siblings

X


----------



## LeArthur (Dec 20, 2016)

Have you tried leaving a little bit of food down for her? So feed her normal breakfast and then when she's done put say a spoonful down. Then feed her her other meal. Just so she knows she always has food there? Also it's very difficult to over feed a kitten, as others have said she should be eating as much as she likes. Arthur is 11 months old today (how he is nearly 1 I don't know!) and he is still getting fed as much as he likes.

Just thinking if she has been used to being fed from different places (from her bowl on the floor, kitchen worktop) and different things (cat food, human food) then she might get a bit confused as to where her next meal is coming from when she's hungry.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

lea247 said:


> Have you tried leaving a little bit of food down for her? So feed her normal breakfast and then when she's done put say a spoonful down. Then feed her her other meal. Just so she knows she always has food there? Also it's very difficult to over feed a kitten, as others have said she should be eating as much as she likes. Arthur is 11 months old today (how he is nearly 1 I don't know!) and he is still getting fed as much as he likes.
> 
> Just thinking if she has been used to being fed from different places (from her bowl on the floor, kitchen worktop) and different things (cat food, human food) then she might get a bit confused as to where her next meal is coming from when she's hungry.


So yesterday when I thought I overfed her she always left a little bit on the floor and went looking for it sometimes.. like grazing.
Should I try put a spoonful and leave it there? It doesn't go bad until the next time she eats right?

At this point I am even wondering if it's not worms!?? She doesn't have a pot belly, she has really shiny coat and is playful & assertive - I've also have inspected her poop: all clear but we are seeing the vet in the next days just to be sure of her health overall.

I think she was being fed everywhere to be honest, countertops included. She ate a full tray already today. Going for the Second tray but will give only half.
Also gave her 3 small quibbles of Lilly's Kitchen treats - which she ate insanely, almost growling and bit my hand!

I want to have some me time tonite, so I shut the door and she goes to her room with toys, clean litter tray, scratch post and everything!
I was hoping she liked catnip to be calmer when she's in a frenzy, but for now she doesn't care for it.


----------



## LeArthur (Dec 20, 2016)

Don't worry about over feeding her. It's hard to do with kittens, they can eat around twice as much as recommended for an adult! Cats aren't like most other animals, when they are full they tend to stop eating.

I would give Gabi her meal if she eats it all, then a spoonful more, if she eats it all that then give her more. Keep going until she stops eating but make sure you leave a spoonful down for her, just so she will see where her food is and where her next meal will come from. I doubt it would go off as she will be eating every few hours. If you like, when you give her the next meal you could bin the spoonful you left down and give her completely fresh for her meal. I would also not give her any treats out of your hand, in another room. Make sure you keep her feeding station in the same place as well. You might find it makes life easier to get an automatic feeder, a bit like this one 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0...ate+feeder&dpPl=1&dpID=412wcxHoNGL&ref=plSrch I have one for Arthur and I can highly recommend it!

It very much sounds to me as though she does need to be shown where her food is coming from. It may take some time but as I'm sure you'll realise will definitely pay off!

Start getting her used to different foods as well now, almost take advantage of her hunger! I would have thought it would make life easier for getting her used to new food. However, she could prove me wrong!


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I agree with the others, Gabi sounds like a hungry little kitten who is panicking over when, or where, her next meal is coming from. It is possible the breeder fed Gabi irregularly and so there were periods when she was left to get very hungry. So now she has big fear issues around food and hunger.

Just keep feeding her, as @lea247 describes above ^^, giving Gabi her meal and then adding one more spoonful at a time until she has had enough. This method will reassure her there is _ALWAYS _enough food available for her, and that she will always get fed if she asks. She needs that reassurance from you. Once she trusts you mean it, she will calm down.

Incidentally kittens do not react to cat nip until at least 3 months of age. And also between 10% and 30% of cats do not respond to cat nip at all - it is a genetic thing.


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

if this breeder is not a good one as you suspect then there is a good chance that she had multiple litters of kittens who may have had to fight over any food resources which were on offer so poor little Gabi will have learnt to fight for food from an early age.
We know that food bills can be enormous for mums and kittens which is one of the reasons that BYB want to sell at less than ideal age.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

lea247 said:


> Don't worry about over feeding her. It's hard to do with kittens, they can eat around twice as much as recommended for an adult! Cats aren't like most other animals, when they are full they tend to stop eating.
> 
> I would give Gabi her meal if she eats it all, then a spoonful more, if she eats it all that then give her more. Keep going until she stops eating but make sure you leave a spoonful down for her, just so she will see where her food is and where her next meal will come from. I doubt it would go off as she will be eating every few hours. If you like, when you give her the next meal you could bin the spoonful you left down and give her completely fresh for her meal. I would also not give her any treats out of your hand, in another room. Make sure you keep her feeding station in the same place as well. You might find it makes life easier to get an automatic feeder, a bit like this one
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0...ate+feeder&dpPl=1&dpID=412wcxHoNGL&ref=plSrch I have one for Arthur and I can highly recommend it!
> ...





chillminx said:


> I agree with the others, Gabi sounds like a hungry little kitten who is panicking over when, or where, her next meal is coming from. It is possible the breeder fed Gabi irregularly and so there were periods when she was left to get very hungry. So now she has big fear issues around food and hunger.
> 
> Just keep feeding her, as @lea247 describes above ^^, giving Gabi her meal and then adding one more spoonful at a time until she has had enough. This method will reassure her there is _ALWAYS _enough food available for her, and that she will always get fed if she asks. She needs that reassurance from you. Once she trusts you mean it, she will calm down.
> 
> Incidentally kittens do not react to cat nip until at least 3 months of age. And also between 10% and 30% of cats do not respond to cat nip at all - it is a genetic thing.





Paddypaws said:


> if this breeder is not a good one as you suspect then there is a good chance that she had multiple litters of kittens who may have had to fight over any food resources which were on offer so poor little Gabi will have learnt to fight for food from an early age.
> We know that food bills can be enormous for mums and kittens which is one of the reasons that BYB want to sell at less than ideal age.


Hi everyone!
I followed the advices suggested in here and Gabi seems so much better! 
Yesterday night (8:30pm) I fed her half of LK tray and she wolfed it all down and was more relaxed, her poo was ( and still is) on the softer side though.

For the first time she woke me up with her meowing at 6:50 am so I gave her half a tray, she ate pretty much everything and then I put another spoonful down, she sniffed but didn't touch it. I came back to my bed and left her in her room with everything plus food this time.

When I got up at 9:30 her food was still there half eaten so I am believing now that she needed the reassurance that she would have food whenever she was hungry. ( The breeder could have indeed allowed her to go long periods without food.. poor kitty!! But I am so reporting her!)

When it was 10:30 am she was meowing and went to her bowl and ate the rest so I realised she was signing that she was hungry. Good as I planned to feed her every 4 hours today.
But (and is a big but) she left more than 2/3 of her food. So all in all it's a positive change.
Food's still there as I write this. So I think it is working.

Thank God and thanks to all of you who gave me advices. You rock!!

In another note:
I received this morning my zooplus order. With animonda carny kitten and grau kitten.
Should I start mixing them in small quantity for her next meal at 2:30?
Her poop is softer than I wanted and I have to wipe her bum everytime she goes to the litter ( 3 times already today)
Thank you very much to all of you again
X


----------



## LJC675 (Apr 24, 2017)

That's great news, well done you.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Don't mix the foods together, serve a small amount (a spoonful) of one of the new foods on a separate dish alongside her current food (LK). Only introduce one new food at a time. Start with the Grau. If all is well introduce the Animonda Carny in 3 weeks time. 

To firm up her stool take her off the cat food and feed her only home-cooked chicken drumsticks with plenty of the stock. When she passes a firm stool, transfer her gradually back to the cat food. Bake the chicken in 4 cm of water in a roasting pan covered with baking foil. Gas Mark 5 for one hour. Serve chopped with the skin but without the bone, Drain the juices into a bowl and cool, store in fridge overnight and skim off fat next day. The remaining jelly can be warmed up and a little added to each chicken meal. 

The chicken diet is easy to digest and rests the bowel. Please let us know how she goes on


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

chillminx said:


> Don't mix the foods together, serve a small amount (a spoonful) of one of the new foods on a separate dish alongside her current food (LK). Only introduce one new food at a time. Start with the Grau. If all is well introduce the Animonda Carny in 3 weeks time.
> 
> To firm up her stool take her off the cat food and feed her only home-cooked chicken drumsticks with plenty of the stock. When she passes a firm stool, transfer her gradually back to the cat food. Bake the chicken in 4 cm of water in a roasting pan covered with baking foil. Gas Mark 5 for one hour. Serve chopped with the skin but without the bone, Drain the juices into a bowl and cool, store in fridge overnight and skim off fat next day. The remaining jelly can be warmed up and a little added to each chicken meal.
> 
> The chicken diet is easy to digest and rests the bowel. Please let us know how she goes on


You guys are so helpful!
Thank you. I will do that and report back! 
X


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Great to hear the suggestions given are working! :Happy


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Really pleased to read that hopefully you are all on track now.
Please keep us updated as to how things go,and some pics would always be welcomed


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

@buffie 
Hi!
Today all went great thanks to all of you 
She allowed me to eat without going crazy and looooved the spoonful of Grau I gave her.
She couldn't wait for full 4 hours though to eat the next meal, she was meowing a lot half an hour ago when she ate her last meal at 4:30 pm
I hope this frequency will be diminished as I will come back to work in 10 days :Wideyed
X

Some pics:


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Hopefully once she settles and realises that she doesnt have to worry about food things will calm down .
If feeding her during the day is going to be awkward it might be a good idea to get a timed feeder so that she can still have her mid day meal.

Thanks for the pics she is a very pretty girl ☺


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Aww, she is gorgeous.  A little poppet. 

She is still very small. Are you weighing her every week on digital scales and keeping a record?

I would advise you to continue feeding her every 4 hours for at least another month. As buffie has said you can used timed feeders once you have to return to work. I used them for years for my cats when I had to be out at work all day Monday to Friday. This is the one I used (and still use for night feeds for one cat).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat-Mate-A...-1&keywords=cat+mate+c20+automatic+pet+feeder

Just remember to slide the starter tab across, before you leave it, and that the batteries have power in them, (Battery testers are cheap).


----------



## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

I use the Trixie two meal cat feeder. It has a dial like the cat mate one. It isn't very good if you are trying to feed more than one cat from it at the same time as the timer settings can be out 15 minutes or so either way but feeding just one cat where the exact time isn't critical they work fine. They have removable trays that are dishwasher safe and little freezable pouches to go under the food. If I am worried about keeping the food fresh I also place the feeder on top of some of those portable freezer blocks wrapped in a thin tea towel so the whole area stays cool.

Like your kitten my elderly male cat needs to be fed small meals regularly and using a feeder for when I am out works perfectly.

If you want to invest in a self closing feeder then the sure feeders are perfect for this if a little pricey. They can sometimes be found second hand on auction and sales sites.

https://m.petplanet.co.uk/p30298/su...MIyoHgqYah1wIVBGwbCh1gtgTcEAQYBSABEgIdk_D_BwE


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

chillminx said:


> Aww, she is gorgeous.  A little poppet.
> 
> She is still very small. Are you weighing her every week on digital scales and keeping a record?
> 
> ...


I don't have a scale yet am afraid. But am taking her to the vet next Tuesday (it will be a week tomorrow that she is with me).

So rIght now I am thinking in what is really essential to get her asap as I don't want to overwhelm my fiancé who just got my engagement ring and the cat as well, so it was a hefty amount of money spent at once.
But for sure I will get this automatic feeder. If you say I can trust totally that the feeder will work I don't get worried. Anyways I shall test the feeder timer when I am home before, will try and get one today with Amazon prime.

My fiancé says that in the first week I'll be back to work he will work from home, which is good. She is still very small (12 weeks) indeed, both in age and size and the food insecurity is getting better so we cannot fault her.
X


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

Hi everyone.
I have swapped Gabi back to poached chicken since yesterday afternoon but her diarrhoea got worse today and now its like she is “peeing brown” as things are so liquid! :Wideyed

I am freaking out a bit as she shouldn’t be like this when she is on chicken only right!!??
Her tummy is gargling a lot and she is quiet today apart the occasional whining and sleeping a lot..
I am so worried with my lil one


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Take her off the chicken and instead give her poached white fish. Tesco sells bags of frozen fish in their Value range. White fish is very soothing to the bowel. 

The diarrhoea is possibly because she is eating much more than she is used to, and her digestion can't cope with the extra food. So you'll need to cut back on quantities and increase much more slowly. 

Feed her the fish and the nice cooking fluids every 4 hours, a little at a time. 

If you can get her seen by a vet today so much the better, but if not and the diarrhoea is still as bad tomorrow morning take her to a vet - some are open on Sundays these days. e.g. Vets4Pets. Do not leave Gabi with bad diarrhoea as she could get dehydrated with the loss of body fluids, and her electrolyte balance will be out of whack.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

chillminx said:


> Take her off the chicken and instead give her poached white fish. Tesco sells bags of frozen fish in their Value range. White fish is very soothing to the bowel.
> 
> The diarrhoea is possibly because she is eating much more than she is used to, and her digestion can't cope with the extra food. So you'll need to cut back on quantities and increase much more slowly.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice. I think what certainly didn't help also is that her LK food finished and then I introduced Grau kitten way too fast. But as I've said she is almost for 24 hours now eating poached chicken only. I am running to Tesco's now to get the white fish. If things don't improve in her first bowel movement after the fish meaI I probably will take her to the vet emergency just in case..

She is too small to be having the runs like that and I am scared of dehydration indeed as she is drinking more water today even when she's only getting the plain chicken.
A bit lethargic behaviour worries me as well.

On a side note: I am insured with agria for the next 4 weeks (breeder did it). Will I be able to claim the emergency appt? Just checking as I never had pet insurance before.

Thank you very much again x


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

Took Gabi to the vet and sadly learnt that the deworming med she has had before didn’t treat for Giardia so the (shockingly young) vet said probably she has Giardia.
Another thing is that she is weighing only 680 grams - so lost weight and was running a tad warm!:Wideyed

That being said we’ve seen her mother and she was very petite at only 2.5 kilos at the age of 3 years old.
She administered fluids and gave her pro kolin + and panacur as well.

Asked us to return in 2 days and prescribed Hills AD for 4 days, I am heartbroken 

What is your experience with that?


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Poor little Gabi, bless her, she must be feeling rotten.  I am so glad you took her to the vet today.

I had assumed when she was wormed before she was given Panacur, as that is what is usually given to kittens when they are treated for parasites.

Giardiasis is nasty but is fairly common in catteries and shelters where new cats are coming and going. It spreads quite easily if strict quarantine rules are not followed. We are fortunate we haven't had an outbreak of Giardiasis at the shelter for years.

The infectious Giardia cysts like a damp environment, so make sure when you clean floors etc you dry them afterwards.

Also be careful Gabi doesn't keep reinfecting herself. I recommend for convenience you consider using the disposal litter trays until she is clear. Dispose of the tray and all the litter every day.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KittyDoo-3...37&sr=1-5&keywords=disposable+cat+litter+tray

Otherwise have a number of cheap plastic litter trays ready so as you can pop down a fresh tray as soon as she has pooed in the one that's provided. The used trays will need soaking daily in a solution of bleach, drying, and refilling with new litter.

To keep costs down on the litter don't put too much litter in the trays, just enough for her to use the tray comfortably.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/giardia-in-cats

Please let us know how she goes on, I hope she soon feels better. You should let the breeder know what the vet has diagnosed so that she/he can treat their own cats.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

I am afraid I don't have good news.. Gabi was very letargic this morning and we decided to run to the vet..
the vet on call was a much more thorough one today then the very young girl yesterday and drawn her blood and was talking in the worst case cenario: panleukopenia. (sorry i dunno how to write this)

In 20 minutes that seemed 20 hours he came back and said that was good news that it wasn't that.. and explained why but I forgot 
but then later he finished the rest of tests and said that we needed to talk and showed us how her albumin levels are very low.. only 6 when normal would be 10-90.

i almost fell apart when he started saying all that could happen, that they could hospitalize her from today, he said so many things but I couldn't process it all.
He said it could be parasites but she is losing weight, she doenst like the Hills ID so we will restart with breast chicken plus rice as he recommended.
she has to put on weight, and can be that she has some intolerance to food only but also can be something very serious on the pancreas.
i am lost and destroyed..


----------



## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

So sorry to hear your news. I hope the vet can treat what ever is causing it and you can have your happy healthy bouncy kitty again.

It's quite understandable you couldn't take everything the vet had to say in. It must have been such a shock. If it helps, you can phone your vet and ask them to repeat everything perhaps with a pen and paper handy so you can write it all down if you want to. They will I am sure be happy to do so.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

kittih said:


> So sorry to hear your news. I hope the vet can treat what ever is causing it and you can have your happy healthy bouncy kitty again.
> 
> It's quite understandable you couldn't take everything the vet had to say in. It must have been such a shock. If it helps, you can phone your vet and ask them to repeat everything perhaps with a pen and paper handy so you can right it all down if you want to. They will I am sure be happy to do so.


Its so overwhelming! My head is still spinning to be honest..
Gabi has a cut on her neck due to fighting when vet tried to take her blood.. he said he glued it back but all this is so traumatizing 

she ate now a good amount of rice with poached breast chicken as the vet oriented us to do it.
but then I start thinking in how the breeder left a kitten go malnourished it makes me so angry!!!!
I just extended her agria pet insurance in tears because it can be parasites "only" but also can mean pancreas problem or bad absorption of foods.. i dont even know what i am thinking right now.. but i know i am scared...


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm so sorry Gabi is not so good. My basic understanding is that the main causes of low albumin is liver or kidney problems, pancreatitis, parasites or malnutrition.
Fingers crossed it's something easily treatable, given her history I guess malnutrition is quite likely. Big hugs x


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Oh gosh so very sorry to be reading this.
Sending lots of positive healing vibes Gabi's way ,hope she is soon feeling a lot better x


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

Thank you everyone that sent well wishes to my little girl. I am praying to St Francis that my little girl is gonna be just fine.
She is eating hourly bits of chicken and rice and she is with great appetite, just very quiet and sleeping a lot today.
I put faith in God that tomorrow or in a couple of days I will be here celebrating how better she is.

X


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I am so sorry to hear this sad news about little Gabi. I do hope she will be OK. It is good news that she is eating the chicken and rice. 

Sending lots of healing thoughts to her and sympathy to you.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

chillminx said:


> I am so sorry to hear this sad news about little Gabi. I do hope she will be OK. It is good news that she is eating the chicken and rice.
> 
> Sending lots of healing thoughts to her and sympathy to you.


Thank you so much
I am still in shock with everything we went through today as in less than 24 hours we went twice to the vet emergency and had 2 completely different opinions ( the girl that saw us Saturday hardly examined her and it seemed that she had a hard time to listen to her heartbeat.

As I be expected the breeder was very defensive and rude when i contacted her this afternoon saying that she was not underweight there and that she doesn't know how we are treating her!!?? And if we had any problem I had to contact the insurance that they will cover the costs!??

Who is talking about money when I can lose my pet!!???

I just gave the phone to my fiancé because I would destroy her with words and her "business" so I dunno what happened in her heart but around 30 min ago tonight she sent me txts saying she would take Gabi back if I wanted and that I would be refunded in 2 days.
The thing is: I didn't buy a bag or a shoe. Is an animal, a life! A little pure creature that already has my heart.

I am so sad, frustrated, angry and confused in what to do!


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If you already love Gabi it will be hard to return her to the breeder. As Gabi came to you so underweight I would worry what she would be going back to.  It does not seem the breeder looked after her very well. 

You have to decide if you want what is best for Gabi or what is best for you. Not easy....


----------



## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Ouicestmoi said:


> I just gave the phone to my fiancé because I would destroy her with words and her "business" so I dunno what happened in her heart but around 30 min ago tonight she sent me txts saying she would take Gabi back if I wanted and that I would be refunded in 2 days.
> The thing is: I didn't buy a bag or a shoe. Is an animal, a life! A little pure creature that already has my heart.


In the eyes of the law you did just purchase an item in the same way as a bag or a shoe.

The breeder is meeting her obligations as a seller by offering a refund if you return the "faulty goods". I know this is a leaving breathing kitten and this doesn't seem right but in the eyes of the law that is how the selling of the kitten is seen.

If you decline to return the kitten in exchange for a refund then you are in the sellers eyes stating you will accept the kitten as is. The breeder can then state they have been completely reasonable and say that the issue is no longer theirs.

For you the difficulty as chill minx has stated is that you have fallen in love with the kitten and won't want to return her.

The breeder likely knows this which is why she has changed her tune and is offering a return and refund.

I am sad to say that the breeder does sound to likely be a back yard breeder. Unfortunately if so they do rely on people falling in love with their kittens and refusing to return them leaving the breeder looking like they've done everything they could officially.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

chillminx said:


> If you already love Gabi it will be hard to return her to the breeder. As Gabi came to you so underweight I would worry what she would be going back to.  It does not seem the breeder looked after her very well.
> 
> You have to decide if you want what is best for Gabi or what is best for you. Not easy....


I worry about that as well. I would feel so guilty giving her back and not knowing if she's gonna make it as the breeder just say that she will give a food that she will put up weight fast. She seems clueless! Kitten Albumin is extremely low as she is malnourished and if the vet even suggested Gabi's hospitalisation is because things are bad!!!

She did eat hourly yesterday and stools were more firm ( and less) as she still with panacur and pro kolin +.
She generally seems brighter but didn't eat a good amount of chicken and rice this morning. 

Yesterday at night we were hand feeding her as she seemed to want only the chicken and very fussy with the rice bits.
I cannot stop crying and am just asking God for guidance. My fiancé says I am getting too emotional, that she is brighter and she is gonna be fine. But he also thinks that the breeder wasn't rude, so he is naive and also never had cats before.
Gabi is on my chest now purring a lot and I just want to do the right thing.
I dunno if it's gonna be possible doing the right thing for her and for me..



kittih said:


> In the eyes of the law you did just purchase an item in the same way as a bag or a shoe.
> 
> The breeder is meeting her obligations as a seller by offering a refund if you return the "faulty goods". I know this is a leaving breathing kitten and this doesn't seem right but in the eyes of the law that is how the selling of the kitten is seen.
> 
> ...


I get you @kittih and she does sound as a BYB indeed and if I could come back in time all I wanted was to have come to this forum before I even thought to get a kitty. I thought that the price I payed her her meant she was a healthy pedigree kitten.
But I didn't see her with the litter siblings as she said they were all sold ( even when in her pets4homes ad she still was advertising kittens but when enquired she said it was her sisters kittens)
I asked about other litters as she had another pregnant cat in the house and she said she couldn't show me as they were only 6 weeks old.
I also haven't seen her "with" the mom.. I have seen the cat allegedly is her mom but the mom was not interested in her!!?? And Gabi was put in a nylon play pen alone as breeder said that she was separated from the mom days before.
When I kept enquiringly about what I've read online she said if I don't want someone else was coming shortly to see her. Now looking in hindsight I felt rushed.

Her ad still shows different cream spotted kittens but £100 pounds cheaper now.

I don't know what to do. My fiancé says she is gonna be fine but we actually don't know.

This is how she spends big part of the day, just took now;


----------



## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

I am so sad for you and your little kitten. From the information you have posted it does scream back yard breeder to me or possibly from your description likely not a breeder at all but a middleman taking kittens bred else where in poor conditions, separating them from mum and using the middleman to provide a "respectable" home for the sale.

There was a heartbreaking thread on here earlier this year about little Kira the kitten who had also as it turned out come from very dubious background and sold to her unsuspecting owners.

The logical thing to do would be to return the kitten and get a refund. However I can quite understand (and would feel the same as you) that you love yoir kitten with all your heart and would worry about your kitties fate if sent back.

I wish you and your kitten all the best and hope she feels much better soon.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

kittih said:


> I am so sad for you and your little kitten. From the information you have posted it does scream back yard breeder to me or possibly from your description likely not a breeder at all but a middleman taking kittens bred else where in poor conditions, separating them from mum and using the middleman to provide a "respectable" home for the sale.
> 
> There was a heartbreaking thread on here earlier this year about little Kira the kitten who had also as it turned out come from very dubious background and sold to her unsuspecting owners.
> 
> ...


I've just sent her that picture and saying she is not playing and of course we are very worried and immediately she called me asking to bring the cat saying she needs antibiotics and a "liquid" every two hours.
She said she has lots of experience and that I need to bRing Gabi to her today as she can get worse tomorrow.

She said we can have her back and we can have agreement that she will be cleared by a vet before that.
I dunno about that but I am taking Gabi back as she said she will give her what she needs. Even she sounds worried now.


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I am sorry you are going through a hard time and that Gabi is still unwell.
If she were my kitten, the only place she would be other than with me right now would be as an in-patient at my vet's office. 
Whether you decide to return the kitten after she has recovered from this illness is a horribly difficult decision to make but right now I would feel obliged to do all I could medically to support her and luckily you have insurance to cover the costs.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

Gabi is back with the breeder and now the breeder is sending me tons of videos of how the cat is magically better there, eating and playing.
My fiancé blames me and says that the woman is no BYB.
But for me she is even worse..

How can I rove him? Should I call GCCF to have infos in the breeder?
Thank you again 
X


----------



## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Ouicestmoi 
I am confused, if the breeder gave you a malnourished kitten, why is she back with the breeder. I may have missed something but if she was not improving at home I would have brought her to a vet again.
I understand she is considered legally property but as said, you get attached to a pet in a way that is unlike a refrigerator. 
The woman could be sending you photos and videos of a similar looking litter mate or other kitten she had or found. I would be suspicious of a miraculous recovery.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

I too am confused by this,from what you have said Gabi had not been raised or looked after as we would expect her to have been so why on earth have you allowed her to go back there.
There is no way on this earth I would be allowing the breeder to have her back .


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

Hi everyone,
I came by to give you all an updated as you guys helped me so much.

Gabi is doing better and I've been receiving regular updates on her weight - she gained 40 grams - and general health condition.
All the videos and pictures I got sent is indeed Gabi as she has both sides of her neck shaved (  ) as she was too wriggly when vet was trying to take her blood.

What happened is that I was scared sh*tless with all that the Sunday vet said.. how can it be possible that another vet in the same clinic had such different opinion? He painted the worst case scenario in the first 10 minutes without even see the blood tests results.
I understand and can appreciate when a professional wants to be thorough but he just started escalating talking about hospitalization, special care for life etc..

Then after sending a photo of Gabi to the breeder she agreed and even prompted me to take her there asap as she could force feed her if necessary, give some oralate? and antibiotics. I know I was very wary of her professionalism but she did sound like she understands of kitten care, at least more than me. I never had an ill cat in my whole life (that wasn't of old age). I got overwhelmed, felt guilty and in pieces emotionally.

We wrote an agreement that If in a week Gabi do not put on weight and improve, ans also go through another vet examination. (a third and different vet choosen by me) she will refund me (and it goes without saying that I'll pay to fill a formal claim to GCCF) but i said to her that is not about the money as we love Gabi deeply, se is already part of our home.

I just did what I thought was best for her and it was as I am seeing in daily updates. the fact is that Gabi is in better shape now, she took antibiotics and is eating.. (she sent me multiple videos of her meal times) so I think afteral the harder decision was the best.
Will keep you updated x


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

All any of us can do is try our very best for our furry friends and it can be very tough when they are ill and we feel out of our depth.
It is great to hear that Gabi is doing better and you have had some of your faith in the breeder restored. I hope she makes a full recovery and is speedily restored to you.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

Paddypaws said:


> All any of us can do is try our very best for our furry friends and it can be very tough when they are ill and we feel out of our depth.
> It is great to hear that Gabi is doing better and you have had some of your faith in the breeder restored. I hope she makes a full recovery and is speedily restored to you.


Thank you so much for your words. It means a lot for me and Gabi
X


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

* Oops! I've left this post on draft yesterday, edited just now**

Pic updated on Gabi everyone 

First pic is from the day she went back to the breeder after antibiotics and a meal. (Monday)

Note that she went there and my fiancé weighed her with the breeder and she was only 630 grams :Woot.

Second pic is from Tuesday and finally third pic is from yesterday morning. 

At this rate she should be almost 900 grams by the Sunday so you think??
X


----------



## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Ouicestmoi 
I can't answer regarding the weight but thanks for the update


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If she reaches 900 grams by Sunday that is still a low weight for a 12 week old kitten, and she looks a tiny wee thing in your latest photos.

If she were mine I would be wanting an explanation from the breeder and the breeder's vet as to why Gabi was/is so underweight. It could be something that will have implications for her development and future health. There has to be a reason for it.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

chillminx said:


> If she reaches 900 grams by Sunday that is still a low weight for a 12 week old kitten, and she looks a tiny wee thing in your latest photos.
> 
> If she were mine I would be wanting an explanation from the breeder and the breeder's vet as to why Gabi was/is so underweight. It could be something that will have implications for her development and future health. There has to be a reason for it.


I would also be interested in just what A/Bs the breeder has been giving Gabi as unless I missed it she hasn't been taken to the vet by the breeder ?


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

chillminx said:


> If she reaches 900 grams by Sunday that is still a low weight for a 12 week old kitten, and she looks a tiny wee thing in your latest photos.
> 
> If she were mine I would be wanting an explanation from the breeder and the breeder's vet as to why Gabi was/is so underweight. It could be something that will have implications for her development and future health. There has to be a reason for it.


That's what I think and ofc am scared of for her future health as well. Her mom is 3 years old and only 2.5 kilos and very petite..
I took a pic of her and will upload.

I shall take Gabi to the breeders vet (that by chance my first vet knew her).
She's from a Medivet in Heldon NW London and bought vets that seen Gabi with me are from a East london medivet.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

buffie said:


> I would also be interested in just what A/Bs the breeder has been giving Gabi as unless I missed it she hasn't been taken to the vet by the breeder ?


A/Bs?
She was taken, and I have the health certificate signed by this vet from Medivet Heldon but I would like to talk to her personally and ask how she cleared and even vaccinated a kitten underweight?

Edit: Antibiotics.!? She said is a pink tablet but she gave only on the first day as she thought Gabi was Ill but now she says she doesn't understand because for her Gabi is a very healthy kitten. Blame the vets for wanting money to hospitalise Gabi.

Basically she is guilt tripping me saying she is worried with how Gabi will be here as she is so happy there. Today she even asked if I wanted my money back but my fiancé is already mad as he is naive and believes blindly in the breeder and says I shouldn't be believing in things I read on the internet. But i know that here is the best place to learn.
I am thorn as we are fighting a lot when I say I am still unsure about her being a BYB.

IMHO Gabi will not have the standard weight from a 12 weeks kitten as she is very small in build, I think - but I am no expert - that she should have been
at least around 900 grams for 11 weeks.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

Gabi's mom according to the breeder.

And Gabi weight today. What do you think?
X


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

The average weight for a 12 wk old kitten is between 1 kg and 1.25 kg for a female. BSH cats are usually quite chunky cats and IME their kittens are the upper side of average in weight.

Your little Gabi looks like a much younger kitten than the 12 weeks the breeder claims she is. More like a 6 week old kitten. Do you think the breeder is giving you the wrong age perhaps? 

It sounds as though the breeder has not taken Gabi to the vets but gave her some Synulox (antibiotic) that she had at home, and then stopped giving it because she felt Gabi is not ill. Not a good practice to start antibiotics and not complete the course. 

I think you need to ask for the name of the breeder's vet and get the breeder's agreement you can speak to him/her about Gabi's age, health, weight etc. The vet must have seen Gabi if she had her first vaccination at the age of 9 weeks whilst still with the breeder.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Ouicestmoi said:


> I've just sent her that picture and saying she is not playing and of course we are very worried and* immediately she called me asking to bring the cat saying she needs antibiotics and a "liquid" every two hours*.
> 
> .





Ouicestmoi said:


> A/Bs?
> She was taken, and I have the health certificate signed by this vet from Medivet Heldon but I would like to talk to her personally and ask how she cleared and even vaccinated a kitten underweight?
> 
> *Edit: Antibiotics.!? She said is a pink tablet but she gave only on the first day as she thought Gabi was Ill but now she says she doesn't understand because for her Gabi is a very healthy kitten. Blame the vets for wanting money to hospitalise Gabi*.
> ...


So am I correct in saying that Gabi has not been taken to the vet by the breeder since you allowed the "breeder" to have her back.
If this is the case then why did she give anti biotics to her as they were clearly not prescribed to be given to Gabi.
Does she perhaps have other sick kittens showing similar symptoms who are already being medicated


----------



## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@buffie 
In a previous post the OP said, the breeder asked to have her back, saying she needed 'antibiotics and a liquid every two hours.' This was without seeing her in person from the information given in the post and without a vet check.

@Ouicestmoi 
I do not know about kitten weight averages but to me size wise, she also does looks younger than 12 weeks. I would agree your fiancé was sold a kitten younger than he thought. Also many people do not know what number of weeks to wait before getting a kitten, I certainly didn't in the past.
I would still be concerned the breeder may have more kittens of similar look and age. Since she asked for her back rather than telling you her recommendations and to take her to the vet again - It may not be for a good reason. She may try a switch on you. Shaving a bit is easily done to match your kitten. Is she microchipped? 
Where does she advertise - look back through the past year and see how often she is advertising kittens. Having kittens available frequently or all the time can be a sign of a shady operation or a very large one.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Summercat said:


> @buffie
> *In a previous post the OP said, the breeder asked to have her back, saying she needed 'antibiotics and a liquid every two hours.' This was without seeing her in person from the information given in the post and without a vet check.*
> 
> .


That is why I questioned if the kitten had been taken to the vet since being returned to the breeder as she was being given antibiotics .


----------



## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@buffie 
To me it sounded as if the breeder had just begun administering them herself. Unless the OP left out information.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Summercat said:


> @buffie
> To me it sounded as if the breeder had just begun administering them herself. Unless the OP left out information.


Yep,I agree.Not a very wise thing to do when you don't know what if anything is wrong with the kitten .


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

buffie said:


> Yep,I agree.Not a very wise thing to do when you don't know what if anything is wrong with the kitten .


I agree. But I was scared Gabi could die on me, is not a nice feeling all this and it's just getting worse. 
The wise thing to do - although painful is not getting Gabi back, get my refund and then try and do the right thing for Gabi and me.
I will make some phone calls today and get this over with. If someone allows kitten to go malnourished they don't deserve to even have cats as pets.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

chillminx said:


> The average weight for a 12 wk old kitten is between 1 kg and 1.25 kg for a female. BSH cats are usually quite chunky cats and IME their kittens are the upper side of average in weight.
> 
> Your little Gabi looks like a much younger kitten than the 12 weeks the breeder claims she is. More like a 6 week old kitten. Do you think the breeder is giving you the wrong age perhaps?
> 
> ...


Can they even lie the kittens age on a vaccination and also GCCF registration card?

I have the name and health check with her vets name, that's not an Issue.

I agree pretty much with everything everyone is saying. The antibiotics thing is awful. I thought she was still taking as she is very bright on the several videos she sent me daily.
I don't wish this situation on anybody.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

Summercat said:


> @buffie
> In a previous post the OP said, the breeder asked to have her back, saying she needed 'antibiotics and a liquid every two hours.' This was without seeing her in person from the information given in the post and without a vet check.
> 
> @Ouicestmoi
> ...


She advertises at pets4homes. Since Oct 2016 and it says "frequently" but I cannot see her old activity.

Gabi is microchipped.
I will get to the bottom of this and do everything I can to have justice for the animals and for me but now the biggest issue is: Do I take Gabi back or not?


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Ouicestmoi said:


> She advertises at pets4homes. Since Oct 2016 and it says "frequently" but I cannot see her old activity.
> 
> Gabi is microchipped.
> I will get to the bottom of this and do everything I can to have justice for the animals and for me but now the biggest issue is: * Do I take Gabi back or not?*


You have to do what you feel is the right thing to do,personally I wouldn't have given Gabi back at all as this "breeder" doesn't sound like the sort of person I would want having her.
I hope you can sort this out and that Gabi is soon gaining weight and recovered from what ever has been causing this .


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

It doesn't sound like this breeder follows the GCCF rules so faking a registration is not beyond the realms of possibility I guess.
I agree with @buffie as in I don't think I would have given her back but that is hard to know really without being in your position. 
With regards to having Gabi back that can be a decision only you can make and it's a tough one. I think if you do want her back I'd do it now, the longer she is not with you the easier it will be to move on which after investing a lot of time and love into Gabi I think would be a shame.
Are you worried that if you got her back she would get worse again? x


----------



## Purplecatlover (Mar 12, 2017)

Just re read most of the thread again and this is so sad 

After going through something similar with our kitten Jasper all the advice I can give you is - please make sure can fully commit to the care & funds needed to look after her as she may have(but may not have) problems in the near future/when she’s older(like chillminx says it could effect her developmentally. I know it’s not all about money but through going through a similar situation we spent over £2,000 within the first 4 months of having him - the insurance then paying out an extra £900 for ultra sounds etc.
That may sound like I’m trying to put you off, but I’m not - I just wanted to be honest about what costs it can reach.
- EDIT: just read you have insurance so hopefully they should cover the costs (That’s what skim reading does lol) 

Jasper was extremely underweight when we got him (we were told by the BYB he was 8 weeks, every vet we saw told us he was more like 3/4 weeks old) and from then fell very ill, quickly. He was 400g when we got him & it hasn’t been easy - we could of lost him a couple of times but after lots of antibiotics, tests, patience, love and other things he is now 2.7kg and even though he is not completely healthy it’s amazing how well he’s done. We now pay out £52 a month for his diabetes insipidus medication, monthly(or twice monthly) blood tests & urine tests & electrolyte powder to use every other day as insurance won’t pay due to issues. It’s also effected Jaspers growth - he is still small for his age and he has a few other ilness’

I wouldn’t change having jasper for the world but it’s not been an easy road - it’s 100000% worth it and I would do it all again in a heart beat though and I have the best relationship with him now. I for one wouldn’t have given Gabi back to the breeder but that’s just how I feel.

As for “don’t believe what the internet says” if it wasn’t for the knowledge and kindness of the people on this forum Jasper wouldn’t be where he is now. I came on here like you, not knowing what to do or how to help jasper and the lovely people on here gave me information, help, advice - told me what to ask at the vets, gave me ideas and gave me the strength to ask for second opinions if I wasn’t happy with what’s was being done. The information I’ve learnt off here is honestly invaluable- and I believe it’s saved Jaspers life.

There’s a lot of thought needed to decide wether to take Gabi back but whatever happens i Just hope she gets fit & healthy. The things the breeders doing sounds very wrong & dangerous & I couldn’t deal with the thoughts of what if if I left her with her breeder.

Sorry for my rambling - if you do decide to take her back (I would, but again I’m not in your situation) stick around. You’ll learn so much about cats & yourself


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

**Update on Gabi and breeders behaviour**

Hi everyone
After careful thinking we have decided on taking Gabi back from the breeder _if_ the vet would clear her with a full examination.

But for our surprise the breeder sent us a string of messages this morning saying she wouldn't give Gabi back and that we needed to go to her to get our refund. (She completely refused a bank transfer or Paypal even when we asked for it).

It came as a shock but after deep evaluation of her behaviour - as she contradicted herself several times, we decided that was another big red flag and settled for our refund.

So after very careful thinking we are not getting Gabi back and we took the decision peacefully together.

Deeply in my heart I know it was not meant to be.

We will get a kitten next year only after fellow recommendations of this amazing forum that I am so happy I've found.

Thank you all again for your advices, nice words of comfort and positive thinking.
X
E.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

@Faye1995 I am so sorry to hear that and am sending lots of blue energy to your Jasper. May St Francis bathe him with healing blessings.

It's painful, and as you said and I completely agree, we cannot take this commmitment of time and money if Gabi is a sickly kitten.
I can only pray she goes to a loving family and I will do what I can do this stuff never happen with others.
X


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

As a breeder it can be very difficult when you have a kitten that is unwell or small for its age - it isn't that straight-forward to say that it has been malnourished and assume that this is through any neglect on the part of the breeder. There could be any number of reasons for Gabi's slow development from something viral to a congenital problem.
To be honest, I believe you have done the right thing by returning Gabi. Hopefully her breeder will sort out the problems if possible and perhaps keep her. If Gabi makes a good recovery an insurance company would consider her current issues as a pre-existing condition so I doubt that she would be covered for a lot of things.
I am sorry that things have worked out like this and you and the breeder have lost trust in one another for whatever reason but wish you well in your search for a new kitten, when you are ready to begin again.


----------



## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Ouicestmoi 
If there are other reasons the kitten is smaller such as illness, that should have been relayed to you before purchase, and the size/weight explained. Or more properly, she would have been raised to a healthy weight before rehoming and the delay explained. Poor kitten, I hope she is ok. I find the dealers behavior odd.


----------



## Ouicestmoi (Oct 26, 2017)

I agree with all of you and it’s very true that we learn from our mistakes. Unfortunately this has proven a very painful one to learn from though.

Breeder says Gabi is doing great, went to a health check, and loves RC dry food (poor kitten) so we can only hope that the new owners will give her better care.

She will sell Gabi that’s for sure as now I learnt that I can see all of her listings on pets4homes and she does have 4 at once!? Even selling 2 and 3 years old queens!? 

Now that I am part of this great forum I will get recommendations of reputable BSH breeders to get my kitten in January.

We are still very sad and I cry often. Even when we had her for only a week it’s surprising how she carved a place in our hearts.

God knows I meant well giving her back as we both work a lot and I couldn’t invest time to properly take care of her needs if she was an ill kitten.

We will never forget that tiny little kitten but at least she is fine and will go to another loving home in time.

If something had happened along the months and we lost her I would never forgive myself.


----------



## Summercat (Oct 8, 2017)

@Ouicestmoi 
Most things are a learning curve and in the past I did not know about dodgy breeders, what age a kitten should be homed, that dry food was not good for cats etc. I guess in some ways I was too trusting and assumed pet food makers, kitten breeders etc were honest. We all learn in life. I find the forums helpful and hope you stay and introduce us to your new cat.


----------

