# Caesar millan the dog whisperer



## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

This man is a genius, just lately been watching his programmes due to having Ronnie, would love to have a trainer like him around here!


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

don't think many people like him,i think hes a bully,from what ive seen he tends to put fear into the dogs.glad his way of training is helping you,although more positive training works better


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Yikes this thread is like opening Pandora's Box, a can of worms and the gates of hell to allow the hounds of hell to run free  .

You won't find many supporters of the white toothed one on here. It would be well worth exploring positive training methods on the internet, in books and of course by finding a force free trainer for your pup if you're attending classes.

For your puppy a great book is "Life Skills For Puppies" by Helen Zulch and Daniel Mills.

"The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell is also worth a read for you to start with.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Looks like I have opened a can of worms lol, I watched one episode where a rotty was on death row and he really was viscous and managed to save him from it, the difference was unbelievable. Thumbs up for saving a dogs life due to no fault of its own


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

princeno5 said:


> don't think many people like him,i think hes a bully,from what ive seen he tends to put fear into the dogs.glad his way of training is helping you,although more positive training works better


I also said I had watched him and not used his methods as I am taking my pup to training locally, advice would be helpful and personal views ie has anyone used his methods and do the work


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Kirstyrebe said:


> Looks like I have opened a can of worms lol, I watched one episode where a rotty was on death row and he really was viscous and managed to save him from it, the difference was unbelievable. Thumbs up for saving a dogs life due to no fault of its own


It's fine to like him (each to their own) but it really would be well worth exploring all the training methods that you possibly can and then reevaluating whether or not your opinion of him is still so high. If it is then you're entitled to it of course but I reckon with some research (even doing a thread search for him on here - but be ready for some long reads ) you may well understand exactly why so many people revile him.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Dogless said:


> It's fine to like him (each to their own) but it really would be well worth exploring all the training methods that you possibly can and then reevaluating whether or not your opinion of him is still so high. If it is then you're entitled to it of course but I reckon with some research (even doing a thread search for him on here - but be ready for some long reads ) you may well understand exactly why so many people revile him.


Do I dare? Lol but thanks for your imput


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

Kirstyrebe said:


> This man is a genius, just lately been watching his programmes due to having Ronnie, would love to have a trainer like him around here!


A very controversial view.

Anyone who kicks dogs is (IMHO) not a trainer, but is an abuser:

Cesar Millan Kicking dogs - YouTube

One day he'll get what is coming to him. Hopefully.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Frenchwood said:


> A very controversial view.
> 
> Anyone who kicks dogs is (IMHO) not a trainer, but is an abuser:
> 
> ...


Yes I did notice the kicking while walking thing and was very against that as I wouldn't kick my children if they wasn't walking properly


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

Youtube cesar gets bit and you will think completely the opposite to him.

check out progressive dog training and you will get a list of good trainers Kikopups being one of them now their is a genious note how she never gets bit by her dogs and how happy her dogs look doing their tricks and working for her while all of cesars dogs displays fear and aggression.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I'd recommend learning a bit about canine body language then going back and watching his videos with the sound turned down. Listen to what the dogs are saying rather than what he's saying. It's a hell of an eye opener.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Thank you I will take a look


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Ill admit when I first saw the edited TV shows I thought wow...

A man who comes in tells the owners where they are going wrong and turns a dog round like that is brilliant ...Then I saw some of the edited out clips that are available, read some of the threads here reserched a bit more and felt sick that someone like that could be edited and made to look so wonderful..

Its so easy to be fooled by the slick clean smiley TV persona but do a little digging and you will find a lot of bad stories that never make TV..

You are not a bad person for being fooled and no one should bash you for that but be aware that there is a lot more than meets the eye when it comes to this man..


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

Kirstyrebe said:


> Yes I did notice the kicking while walking thing and was very against that as I wouldn't kick my children if they wasn't walking properly


Precisely.

<rant>
He uses a lot of aggressive techniques, and strikes dogs on many an occasion, and claims he's not training, he's "rehabilitating", which is absolute poppy-cock.

It's bullying and abuse, and one day he WILL come unstuck.

He's doing all this based on information released in the 1970's about Wolf behaviour that has since been retracted by the author. notwithstanding the fact that dogs are NOT wolves!

It's him that needs the "rehabilitating" and I'll love to do it to him in the same way he does it to dogs!

:mad2:

</rant>


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

I have seen a couple of his programmes and in one of them he wound a dog up so much it bit him on the hand. I am a total dog novice but I remember watching it and thinking - good! I don't doubt that he gets results but in my opinion he is a bully.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

Is that the one with the husky or the labrador? Or the one with the Pit Bull ?


Boy this guy has had it a few times o.0


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Is that the one with the husky or the labrador? Or the one with the Pit Bull ?
> 
> Boy this guy has had it a few times o.0


I don't now how you can watch so many clips of this hideous man :frown2:

and I don't just mean the way he treats the dogs 

Makes me want to punch him


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Happy dogs who do what you ask because they know they will get a reward , be it a treat , a pat , a good word or playtime versus a dog who is too scared not to do what its asked , theres no competition in my mind , positive training is the way to go


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

rona said:


> I don't now how you can watch so many clips of this hideous man :frown2:
> 
> and I don't just mean the way he treats the dogs
> 
> Makes me want to punch him


I wanted to be sure I think watched about four different ones before I was satisfied but their are a few on there. The one with the labrador wound me up so much I couldn't finnish watching to find out what happen to the poor boy :<

I have some friends who think he is great and I know a lot of people who own dogs and think he's great but only because of how his programes make him look that way when he has been edited.

I used to be a BIG fan and supported him a lot until I saw these videos.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rona said:


> I don't now how you can watch so many clips of this hideous man :frown2:
> 
> and I don't just mean the way he treats the dogs
> 
> Makes me want to punch him


If I'm going to argue for or against what someone does I want to know what I'm talking about rather than just going by what others say about them  I've read his books too.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I've always liked CM that's why he is my avitar picture. Nobody is perfect.*


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Kirstyrebe said:


> Looks like I have opened a can of worms lol, I watched one episode where a rotty was on death row and he really was viscous and managed to save him from it, the difference was unbelievable. Thumbs up for saving a dogs life due to no fault of its own


I really, really suggest you conduct your own research on this showman, I hate to say it but for many, many dogs the story doesn't end at the end of the show...Just because that rottie was portrayed as being "fixed" does not mean that the poor dog was helped in the slightest.

Millan is someone that likes to cover up his mistakes so any dogs he fails he will convince the owner that the dog is beyond help so either let Millan take the dog to join his "pack" (where fights amongst the dogs are regular and you can even find clips on youtube) or the dog needs pts.... This man (bully) does not fix dogs, at best he puts a band-aid over them whilst the cameras are looking :nonod:

Have a read of this article, it make open your eyes a bit 
Mary Harwelik - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Kirstyrebe said:


> Looks like I have opened a can of worms lol, I watched one episode where a rotty was on death row and he really was viscous and managed to save him from it, the difference was unbelievable. Thumbs up for saving a dogs life due to no fault of its own


Who says he was on death row? Cesar Millan? I would be more impressed with a follow up that showed how this dog became a wonderful family pet but that is unlikely. Please, go into search and find all the links to the Dog Abuser, like the 11 month old St Bernard Dragged forcibly up a slippery spiral staircase so that his selfish owners could have him in their bedroom. All he learned was that stairs hurt his delicate joints and to be more scared of them than he ever was. Or Holly, the food guarding labrador, who ended up biting him as the pratt declared "I didn't see that coming." Yeah, well, everyone else did. He tormented that poor dog until he got bitten, then told the stupid owners that she would be dangerous to keep and the stupid owners believed him. Or the Husky who was hung up by his choke chain till his mouth turned blue, or the German shepherd who bit his owner when the Dog Abuser used a shock collar on him to stop him going near the cat.

The man should be hung up by his own choke chain and have his shock collar attached to his wotsits. If he came within a 100 yards of my dogs, I would be happy to accommodate him.

I am sorry, OP, but you picked the wrong forum to extol the virtues of this idiot.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I've always liked CM that's why he is my avitar picture. Nobody is perfect.*


Is that who it is? I thought it was your old man!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Is that who it is? I thought it was your old man!


*He is, in my dreams.lol Oh and my " old man" is younger than me. lmao*


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

if I remember right,he gave that rottie to his son,it ended up living on his compound.think it was called Apollo?,might be wrong.most dogs do listen to strangers,i know mine behave better for a random walker telling them to sit.i wouldn't let him near mine or anybody elses dog.im fed up seeing people prod,poke,kick and roll their dogs on my walks.it just puts the fear into them not trains them.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

OP if you want to watch someone, watch Victoria Stilwell. She has never to my knowledge been bitten and uses only positive reward based training methods. Do watch her US shows though, not the English ones as those were recorded many years ago and her methods have changed a lot. Neither of these people of qualified dog trainers, but she at least has qualified people advising her.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *He is, in my dreams.lol Oh and my " old man" is younger than me. lmao*


I tell you what, I'll do a deal with you. You can Cesar Millan in your dreams, if I get exclusive use of Elvis in mine! OK?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> If I'm going to argue for or against what someone does I want to know what I'm talking about rather than just going by what others say about them  I've read his books too.


I read one of his books - he told me how wonderful he was.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> I tell you what, I'll do a deal with you. You can Cesar Millan in your dreams, if I get exclusive use of Elvis in mine! OK?


*Omg, you drive a hard bargain. But ok, but only in your dreams. Elvis is mine when we get to heaven.*


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I think you should distract everyone with a photo of Ronnie :001_wub:.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Frenchwood said:


> A very controversial view.
> 
> Anyone who kicks dogs is (IMHO) not a trainer, but is an abuser:
> 
> ...


We can but hope. I do wish the animal rights people would do something useful and cotton on to him.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I read one of his books - he told me how wonderful he was.


Lol, yes. I didn't find the books quite as bad as the tv show though. Don't recall anything in them about stringing the dog up by the neck until it passes out.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> We can but hope. I do with the animal rights people would do something useful and cotton on to him.


*That link has got me thinking.*


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> OP if you want to watch someone, watch Victoria Stilwell. She has never to my knowledge been bitten and uses only positive reward based training methods. Do watch her US shows though, not the English ones as those were recorded many years ago and her methods have changed a lot. Neither of these people of qualified dog trainers, but she at least has qualified people advising her.


Yeah but the fact remains she had the same attitude towards dogs starting out as CM she did her research and changed her views but she is a showman type trainer which I detest.

Dogs Bostals is one programe to stay clear of too >.>


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Prowl said:


> Yeah but the fact remains she had the same attitude towards dogs starting out as CM she did her research and changed her views but she is a showman type trainer which I detest.
> 
> Dogs Bostals is one programe to stay clear of too >.>


She went on about pack leaders and eating first, while using treats and reward based training. She never kicked a dog or hurt a dog and she never got bitten. I did say that neither are dog trainers. And she is prepared to change when proved wrong, he is too arrogant.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Omg, you drive a hard bargain. But ok, but only in your dreams. Elvis is mine when we get to heaven.*


No, first come first served.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> She went on about pack leaders and eating first, while using treats and reward based training. She never kicked a dog or hurt a dog and she never got bitten. I did say that neither are dog trainers. And she is prepared to change when proved wrong, he is too arrogant.


She has used tools which she did when she started out in America like coin shakers, sprays ect.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Prowl said:


> She has used tools which she did when she started out in America like coin shakers, sprays ect.


Yes, and thrown shock collars and prong collars in the trash.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Prowl said:


> She has used tools which she did when she started out in America like coin shakers, sprays ect.


And she's gone on to throw things like that out and learn better ways of doing things. If you're going to dismiss every trainer who's ever done something that's not ideal then I think you'll be dismissing every trainer going.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I've always liked CM that's why he is my avitar picture. Nobody is perfect.*


True. But there's time, Janice. You can change


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> If I'm going to argue for or against what someone does I want to know what I'm talking about rather than just going by what others say about them  I've read his books too.


I've watched the Lab one..........that was enough for me 
I've also watched interviews but switched off before he got his hands on a dog

Oh and I know a "trainer" that uses such "techniques"


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

rona said:


> I've watched the Lab one..........that was enough for me
> 
> Oh and I know a "trainer" that uses such "techniques"


I know one thaat has no technique just yell and yank! lol
The clients charge him £8 for a 2 hour session.

He's very popular and a cat sitter >.>


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I know one thaat has no technique just yell and yank! lol
> The clients charge him £8 for a 2 hour session.
> 
> He's very popular and a cat sitter >.>


Yep, I can do without watching animals abuse on tv or my computer. Can see enough of that in real life


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

rona said:


> Yep, I can do without watching animals abuse on tv or my computer. Can see enough of that in real life


Sadly his site says he is extremely reputable along with his facebook page its annoys me because I can see from one lesson he doesn't know anything yet the clients adore him because he's ruff with the dogs.


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Is that the one with the husky or the labrador? Or the one with the Pit Bull ?
> 
> Boy this guy has had it a few times o.0


It was a lab.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> True. But there's time, Janice. You can change


*I think i might be changing my view of some of what he does. I watched the link that newfiesmum put up.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I think i might be changing my view of some of what he does. I watched the link that newfiesmum put up.*


Watch this space with bated breath:idea:


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Prowl said:


> She has used tools which she did when she started out in America like coin shakers, sprays ect.


Everyone makes mistakes, the difference is the people that learn and move on.. VS moved on and has a team of dog behaviourists and trainers on her team to ask advice from, whereas CM is an egotistical, jumped up salesman who thinks and believes he knows best and is great at convincing others that he knows what he is talking about...

He is a salesman, nothing more, nothing less ut:


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> Watch this space with bated breath:idea:


Have I missed a link?
Looked through the thread again to see the link you posted after Janice mentioned it and I can't see anything


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> Have I missed a link?
> Looked through the thread again to see the link you posted after Janice mentioned it and I can't see anything


this is the link Cesar Millan Kicking dogs - YouTube at least that is where it has taken me, though it says I have to sign in to confirm my age because it is not suitable for some viewers. Says it all really.

It wasn't me that posted the link, it was Frenchwood; I just quoted it.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> this is the link Cesar Millan Kicking dogs - YouTube at least that is where it has taken me, though it says I have to sign in to confirm my age because it is not suitable for some viewers. Says it all really.
> 
> It wasn't me that posted the link, it was Frenchwood; I just quoted it.


The link was bought to my attention some time ago by a friend. before I watched it, I was indifferent to CM. I didn't think his methods were as effective as they could be, but that was about it.

Having now looked at more and more of his abhorrent "rehabilitation" techniques, I realise just how outdated and cruel he really is.

Yes these people have really badly behaved dogs in most cases, however, there's nothing I've seen on his "shows" so far that 
A: could not be corrected by positive operant conditioning.
B: requires physical punishment/coercion.

Unfortunately, there are many people that see his methods as "The only way". Sadly, he's not attuned enough to the dogs he (poorly) treats, nor the wider world to notice his errant ways.

I'm not saying that there is no place for negative reinforcement, quite the contrary; I use negative reinforcement all the time in training my dog Blue...

...when he behaves poorly he gets a firm "No". That is all the negative reinforcement he needs. My tone says it all.

The only times I have ever struck Blue have been purely accidental and he gets a deep and sincere apology from me at his level (at which point he usually takes advantage and herds/attacks (playfully)/nuzzles me).


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Cant stand CM.

I also can not stand Brad Pattison. In fact I think hes worse because at least CM has that car salesman charm. BP is just a vile, obnoxious, arrogant (insert word of choice)

Just watched Puppy SOS to wind myself and he is just awful.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> I wanted to be sure I think watched about four different ones before I was satisfied but their are a few on there. *The one with the labrador wound me up so much I couldn't finnish watching to find out what happen to the poor boy :<*
> 
> I have some friends who think he is great and I know a lot of people who own dogs and think he's great but only because of how his programes make him look that way when he has been edited.
> 
> I used to be a BIG fan and supported him a lot until I saw these videos.


That lab episode REALLY upset me when I saw it. That poor dog did everything it could to appease, had no idea what was expected of her, and the [email protected] went on pushing and pushing into her space, even though she was trying to get out of the way - body language showed severe stress and fear. Poor dog was desperate.

I don't know what the end result for the dog was, but I saw her bite him and I was worried sick for it. I hope she wasn't PTS.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> Who says he was on death row? Cesar Millan? I would be more impressed with a follow up that showed how this dog became a wonderful family pet but that is unlikely. Please, go into search and find all the links to the Dog Abuser, like the 11 month old St Bernard Dragged forcibly up a slippery spiral staircase so that his selfish owners could have him in their bedroom. All he learned was that stairs hurt his delicate joints and to be more scared of them than he ever was. Or Holly, the food guarding labrador, who ended up biting him as the pratt declared "I didn't see that coming." Yeah, well, everyone else did. He tormented that poor dog until he got bitten, then told the stupid owners that she would be dangerous to keep and the stupid owners believed him.
> This was horrible - I was really upset by that episode
> 
> * Or the Husky who was hung up by his choke chain till his mouth turned blue, or the German shepherd who bit his owner when the Dog Abuser used a shock collar on him to stop him going near the cat.*
> ...


OP will learn - Cesar Milan is the Barbara Woodhouse to the stars - bossy, bullying and bloody cruel!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

lostbear said:


> I don't know what the end result for the dog was, but I saw her bite him and I was worried sick for it. I hope she wasn't PTS.


She was another that joined his pack, CM convinced the owners that she was no longer safe to be around the family 

"Now Holly's at the Dog Psychology Center and we can play like best friends."

http://www.cesarsway.com/newsandevents/cesarsblog/Why-Im-Speaking-Out-Against-Bullying#ixzz2rbJbGDDR


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *He is, in my dreams.lol Oh and my " old man" is younger than me. lmao*


No accounting for taste. Fancy fantasising about CM when you could be fantasising about David Tennant :ihih:


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Lol, yes. I didn't find the books quite as bad as the tv show though. Don't recall anything in them about stringing the dog up by the neck until it passes out.


Mmmm - wonder why he didn't mention that to his adoring public.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> No, first come first served.


Ladies, ladies - put those hormones away now, please, before someone gets hurt :laugh:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

What I don't get is that Mary Chipperfield was jailed and banned from keeping animals for doing similar things to an elephant, yet people think this idiot is some wonder dog trainer. The only difference between them is that she did it in secret and got caught on video by the animal rights activists, whereas he does it on telly and gets paid millions for it. Perhaps that is why they aren't so interested in him - no glorious expose to be had.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lostbear said:


> No accounting for taste. Fancy fantasising about CM when you could be fantasising about David Tennant :ihih:


Is that the bloke who plays Dr Who? Too skinny for my taste.



lostbear said:


> Ladies, ladies - put those hormones away now, please, before someone gets hurt :laugh:


Now that is not going to happen this week, cos I have just started watching the first series of Maverick that my daughter bought me for christmas. I cannot have a hormone free drool over a very young James Garner.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Do I smell the faint whiff of spam about the OP?


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> What I don't get is that Mary Chipperfield was jailed and banned from keeping animals for doing similar things to an elephant, yet people think this idiot is some wonder dog trainer. The only difference between them is that she did it in secret and got caught on video by the animal rights activists, whereas he does it on telly and gets paid millions for it. Perhaps that is why they aren't so interested in him - no glorious expose to be had.


I don't get it either.
There have been a couple episodes where he has deliberately put two dogs together who he KNOWS are going to fight, and then they televise the dog fight that everyone knew was coming. In the US dog fighting is a felony in all 50 states. How is what he is doing any different is what I want to know.

In one episode he put two pitbull bitches together, who had a long history of having fought and injured each other. Sure enough, they fought, the cameraman zooms in on the fight as a bunch of inept people try to break it up (not one breakstick in sight idiots), they get them separated, and there is another gratuitous zoom-in on the torn muzzle of one of the bitches dripping blood.

Seriously - how is this ANY different than a staged dog fight?

And no, the bitches were NOT "rehabilitated", and ended up having to be rehomed to separate homes.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I don't get it either.
> There have been a couple episodes where he has deliberately put two dogs together who he KNOWS are going to fight, and then they televise the dog fight that everyone knew was coming. In the US dog fighting is a felony in all 50 states. How is what he is doing any different is what I want to know.
> 
> In one episode he put two pitbull bitches together, who had a long history of having fought and injured each other. Sure enough, they fought, the cameraman zooms in on the fight as a bunch of inept people try to break it up (not one breakstick in sight idiots), they get them separated, and there is another gratuitous zoom-in on the torn muzzle of one of the bitches dripping blood.
> ...


It isn't. That is one of the things that really gets my wild up about this moron; he does things that would land ordinary Joe Public in prison, but because he tells everyone he is this wonderful dog psychologist, and the idiots believe him, they all think he is great.

What was anyone supposed to learn about the scenario you have just presented? Not to put two pit bull bitches with a fight history together? Well, there's a surprise. We never would have thought of that.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MollySmith said:


> Do I smell the faint whiff of spam about the OP?


I think just an innocent waiting to be educated.:001_unsure:


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> It isn't. That is one of the things that really gets my wild up about this moron; he does things that would land ordinary Joe Public in prison, but because he tells everyone he is this wonderful dog psychologist, and the idiots believe him, they all think he is great.
> 
> What was anyone supposed to learn about the scenario you have just presented? Not to put two pit bull bitches with a fight history together? Well, there's a surprise. We never would have thought of that.


No, he didn't even state the obvious - not to put two dogs with a serious fight history together, unmuzled, unleashed etc. 
No... He blamed the owners, said their "energy" was off and that's why the bitches fought.

Pitbull people around the world are banging their heads on hard surfaces as more breed misinformation is spread about their breed...


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

We had lots of problems with Dillon when he was younger, we have used some of both Ceasar and Victoria Stillwells methods to help train him, and combined they worked.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Prowl said:


> Yeah but the fact remains she had the same attitude towards dogs starting out as CM she did her research and changed her views but she is a showman type trainer which I detest.
> 
> Dogs Bostals is one programe to stay clear of too >.>


She wasn't a dog trainer prior to the show. She was just there to recite what was told her by a set of off-screen trainers.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

Its ok as long as poeople watch it

thats the attitude of the RSPCA when I reported a dog trainer who was a complete numpty and teaching people to be cruel to their dogs.

When I spoke to him at the end he made it even more obvious he didn't know what he was talking about yet he is still a trusted, popular and highly recomended trainer my local area.

He's aloud to do it because their people happy to pay him its much the same with cesar millan. 

This trainer I speak of charges £8 for 2 hours to basiclly shout and yank your dogs collar and how to bully them into submitance while your dog gets stressed and aggressive and so do you but thats ok as long as you support him.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Its ok as long as poeople watch it
> 
> thats the attitude of the RSPCA when I reported a dog trainer who was a complete numpty and teaching people to be cruel to their dogs.
> 
> ...


Yep and that's why people who don't have any or very little experience with dogs shouldn't be allowed to be dog trainers or call themselves dog trainers, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing..........


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Yep and that's why people who don't have any or very little experience with dogs shouldn't be allowed to be dog trainers or call themselves dog trainers, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing..........


Attending that lesson made me see how much I actually knew by comparison to this charlaton.

I felt like having a go at him but when your surounded by your followers its a bit hard to do that. He's got a facebook page and some members have been going to him since their dogs were puppies :<

The one I was most concerned for was the little staffie that kept getting drenched in water.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> She wasn't a dog trainer prior to the show. She was just there to recite what was told her by a set of off-screen trainers.


She used to be a dog walker in London while waiting for acting roles to come up. As far as I'm aware she's ever owned a dog in her life.

She then went to the US. I remember her first shows here in the UK and the methods she used made me cringe (and mad). There were a lot of complaints and mutterings from positive dog trainers. I remember seeing a much later series and thought she'd maybe taken the complaints on board and was using more positive methods.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> We had lots of problems with Dillon when he was younger, we have used some of both Ceasar and Victoria Stillwells methods to help train him, and combined they worked.


Lots of things work 
Eating nothing but iceberg lettuce and drinking nothing but diet coke will work to make you lose weight, doesnt mean its the smartest way to go about weight loss.

Instead, we need to be asking why something works, what is the dog experiencing that makes this work for that dog, what does the dogs body language and general demeanor tell us about how he/she feels about all this, is this the most effective approach, is there a less stressful way to achieve the same thing?

To me, it works sets the bar far too low when it comes to doing whats best for our dogs.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Wow, been a busy bee all day and sat down to this! Sorry if I have offended people, but to my offence maybe people maybe as naive as me don't know any different and need to be educated on 'good old cm' before I open my big mouth. Unlike a lot of people I never knew of these link explaining and showing of what he really does, and I most definitely didn't know of any shocking as I'm totally against cruelty to animals. Surely he should be banned off the tv?


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

On a happy note Ronnie at 13 weeks lol


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)




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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

gorgeous wee puppy 

as everyone else has already said...positive trainers are much much better haha
i used to think cesar was good too...then i started to study canine behaviour and body language etc...i now cant watch the programme as it upsets me too much, the dogs go through hell and although cesar looks fab on tv and seems to look like he knows what he is doing ...he in fact knows feck all about dog behaviour/psychology/communication etc

if you want a doggy person to watch and learn from then i suggest this, emily lahram (? i can never remember how to spell her last name haha)
kikopup - YouTube

thought id leave these here too, Leader of the Pack

BEYOND CESAR MILLAN - Home

of course everyone is going to have their own pinions, but personally id avoid any trainer/behaviourist that spouts stuff about dominance, path theory etc as that is very old fashioned, and its been proven wrong etc.
hopefully you will find what works best for you and your new dog


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

OP he isn't all bad. 

I no longer believe in everything being down to dominance. He's done an awful lot for dog owners (defo helped me). He's also done a lot for rescue, in particular Pitt bulls and for educating the general public on exercising their dogs. His high profile has been instrumental in raising awareness in certain areas. 

I believe he is moving away from controversial methods now. His techniques have worked for lots of dogs but there are perhaps more nervous dogs whom his methods haven't been so suitable. 

Overall I like him a lot. But do not like alpha rolls or confrontational methods.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Cesar doesn't have a clue what he's doing and it only hurts the dogs. Not only training there was the saint bernard dragged up stairs on a choke chain, the 12 week old dalmatian he put on a treadmill granted he also brought in a clicker trainer because he couldn't teach a puppy to lie down and roll over, the rottie he brought in from spaying and threw back into his pack when she was still groggy. The chi mix he was helping a mexican rescue with that was clearly in pain and could barely walk that he also shoved in with the pack for them to push around to "make" it walk. The bit at the end said the poor thing was eventually taken to the vets and euthanised for advanced kidney failure .

Read up on body language then watch it with the sound off. Then do the same with VS and you'll see the difference. While she did talk about pack theory the last show I watched had her smashing a shock collar that the darling owners had on a terrified chi/maltese mix.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Debbierobb109 said:


> gorgeous wee puppy
> 
> as everyone else has already said...positive trainers are much much better haha
> i used to think cesar was good too...then i started to study canine behaviour and body language etc...i now cant watch the programme as it upsets me too much, the dogs go through hell and although cesar looks fab on tv and seems to look like he knows what he is doing ...he in fact knows feck all about dog behaviour/psychology/communication etc
> ...


I disagree that he knows "feck all" about communication methods. Even his critics have to admit that to have such a large pack of powerful dogs, he needs to be able to recognise energy and body language.

I have a pack of 4 dogs and I struggle with that at times


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> OP he isn't all bad.
> 
> I no longer believe in everything being down to dominance. He's done an awful lot for dog owners (defo helped me). He's also done a lot for rescue, in particular Pitt bulls and for educating the general public on exercising their dogs. His high profile has been instrumental in raising awareness in certain areas.
> 
> ...


He does some good things yes especially for breeds like pitbulls and showing people they aren't monsters, encourages people to rescue, I think he's helped shut down puppy mills and if the only thing people take away from the show is they need to actually walk and train their dogs then it's a good thing.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Even his critics have to admit that to have such a large pack of powerful dogs, he needs to be able to recognise energy and body language.


Errr..... no.... They don't.
And a lot of the dogs wear shock collars.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

I haven't read everything on this thread, he's been done to death many times, I don't think there's much more to be said, certainly not by me who's never been to a training class of any kind in my life. If, as I suspect, you're a first time dog owner, ( I may be wrong, if so I apologise.) then my advice would be to try the method I've used, quite successfully, for years. Be patient, be gentle and be consistent. Make lessons fun, not something for you or your dog to be stressed about. Sure you can bully a dog into doing as you want but you end up with a dog that has no spark, I've said this before, I want my dogs to work for me because it pleases them to do so, not because they're scared not to. I'm sort of waiting to be told that I've over simplified the matter, but it's the way I view things, perhaps it reflects my whole approach to life. Keep it simple.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Watch this just the whole scene with the poor thing in the crate
The Dog Whisperer Season 4 Episode 2 [feat. Cotton, Ricky & Jordan, and Duke & Lila] - YouTube
Then realise this poor woof has now had it's teeth filed down because it's still agressive. Then tell me he understands body language


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

goodvic2 said:


> OP he isn't all bad.
> 
> I no longer believe in everything being down to dominance. He's done an awful lot for dog owners (defo helped me). *He's also done a lot for rescue, in particular Pitt bulls* and for educating the general public on exercising their dogs. His high profile has been instrumental in raising awareness in certain areas.
> 
> ...


Actually, the vast majority of pit bull rescues and breeders feel he has done a huge disservice to the breed.
You can't finger poke the drive out of a pitbull, you can't "energy" the fight out of a pitbull, and it's hugely ill-advised to try to make two pits who have already fought get along. Exercise doesn't fix DA... 
He has spread a lot of misinformation about the breed to it's disservice.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

awww your bulldog is soooooo cute


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nothing to like about him, nothing good to say about him.

Guess he's changing his methods now as he's sick of being sued. He should be off the television.

He might to a lot for rescue etc, still doesn't excuse the fact he use choke chains,prong collars, e collars etc:
"In 2006, the American Humane Society lobbed one of the first grenades, asking producers to cancel Millan&#8217;s TV show, calling some of his training methods &#8220;inhumane&#8221; and &#8220;cruel and dangerous.&#8221; The animal group said it was particularly disturbed by the way Millan subdued dogs with shock collars, by pinning them to the ground or by tightening their collars. The group requested a different TV show that &#8220;sets a positive example by featuring proper, humane animal training.&#8221;

"Two years later, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior issued a policy statement on dominance theory, which didn&#8217;t mention Millan by name, but decried his methods, saying they lead to &#8220;an antagonistic relationship between owners and their pets.&#8221; The policy paper included a list of eight major myths about dominant behavior in dogs."

Not acceptable ever even if he has changed his ways.............. He has no understanding of dogs really...


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Thanks springer Pete, I'm trying my best as are my partner and children we all use the same methods, when caught chewing I don't shout I move him away and pass his own toy, when he tries to toilet in the house he gets taken outside. I use chew spray but don't think it's much cop, on his walks he's very good anyway. When I say no I say it sternly and look into his eyes which seem to work, I am lucky to what I've read he's a good pup....so far. I also have started taking him obedience training which he loves mingling with all the other dogs and all the sausage treats but this is how far I have got.... I haven't used any of cm methods and more than likely never will


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

goodvic2 said:


> I disagree that he knows "feck all" about communication methods. Even his critics have to admit that to have such a large pack of powerful dogs, he needs to be able to recognise energy and body language.
> 
> I have a pack of 4 dogs and I struggle with that at times


But the fact he doesn't have any control BECAUSE of the methods he uses

your dogs are 4 dogs not a pack pack is a term used to describe wolves which dogs are not.

Look out for progressive trainers and positive methods to see the difference look at Kikopups videos her dogs want to work for her because they know what she wants not because she bullies them into their performance. Their is a big difference between her and cesar millan.

People like cesar millan are very dangerous because well meaning owners watch him and think thats how I train my dog and don't realise these methods actually often cause aggression and fear or stubborness.

The man has been bittern so many times I am suprised their is anything still left of him.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Actually, the vast majority of pit bull rescues and breeders feel he has done a huge disservice to the breed.
> You can't finger poke the drive out of a pitbull, you can't "energy" the fight out of a pitbull, and it's hugely ill-advised to try to make two pits who have already fought get along. Exercise doesn't fix DA...
> He has spread a lot of misinformation about the breed to it's disservice.


How has he done a disservice out of interest?

Daddy appears to be a very positive role model for the breed, which has shown that the behaviour of the dog Is all about the ownership and not the breed. Surely it's a good thing having breeds like Daddy and Junior in such a positive light 

And how does he manage so many Pitts in one pack? I've heard the argument that he manages the pack by excessive exercise but u say that this is not the answer.

Does he drug his pack? Or do u think it is trick photography?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Prowl said:


> The man has been bittern so many times I am suprised their is anything still left of him.


Wow do you think he has cosmetic surgery to cover all of those bites? Or perhaps it's make up ?

He certainly doesn't appear to be in such a dreadful state


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Nothing to like about him, nothing good to say about him.
> 
> Guess he's changing his methods now as he's sick of being sued. He should be off the television.
> 
> ...


 In fairness Meezy, being 'self taught' is not necessarily an indication of a 'bad trainer' I guess I fall into that camp, I learned what little I know from being around dogs and observing what makes them tick, what works and what doesn't.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> And how does he manage so many Pitts in one pack?


He uses shock collars.



> Does he drug his pack? Or do u think it is trick photography?


He uses shock collars.

I think there's an echo in here!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

springerpete said:


> In fairness Meezy, being 'self taught' is not necessarily an indication of a 'bad trainer' I guess I fall into that camp, I learned what little I know from being around dogs and observing what makes them tick, what works and what doesn't.


I don't think a degree is the bee all and end all.

However unless a trainer is recommended or has qualifications then anyone can call themselves a dog trainee which could be very dangerous


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

springerpete said:


> In fairness Meezy, being 'self taught' is not necessarily an indication of a 'bad trainer' I guess I fall into that camp, I learned what little I know from being around dogs and observing what makes them tick, what works and what doesn't.


I totally agree, but there are people who are self taught who do understand and can read dogs and have a natural affinity so can train without using fear or pain , and there are those who can't, and CM is in the camp that can't hence he uses fear and pain to control his dogs.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> He uses shock collars.
> 
> He uses shock collars.
> 
> I think there's an echo in here!


Does he quickly take them off when the cameras are rolling as none
Of the dogs wear collars from memory


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Kirstyrebe said:


> Thanks springer Pete, I'm trying my best as are my partner and children we all use the same methods, when caught chewing I don't shout I move him away and pass his own toy, when he tries to toilet in the house he gets taken outside. I use chew spray but don't think it's much cop, on his walks he's very good anyway. When I say no I say it sternly and look into his eyes which seem to work, I am lucky to what I've read he's a good pup....so far. I also have started taking him obedience training which he loves mingling with all the other dogs and all the sausage treats but this is how far I have got.... I haven't used any of cm methods and more than likely never will


Anytime. pups will test your patience, they will take two steps forward and one back, just don't push too hard in the early stages, it takes time. Puppy classes, whilst I've never had to use them, seem a great way for a youngster to socialise. Please don't let your desire to get your youngster ''Trained'' detract you from enjoying his puppy period, it doesn't last long make the most of it.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

goodvic2 said:


> Wow do you think he has cosmetic surgery to cover all of those bites? Or perhaps it's make up ?
> 
> He certainly doesn't appear to be in such a dreadful state


Well if his his lawyers are anything to go by....


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Does he quickly take them off when the cameras are rolling as none
> Of the dogs wear collars from memory


Edited out. But there are plenty of stills showing his "pack" wearing them.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> I disagree that he knows "feck all" about communication methods.


Personally I'm not convinced that:

A dog shakes because its learning

A dog (carnivore / predator) showing interest in a rabbit (prey animal) is showing dominance

A dog jumping up or pulling on the lead is showing dominance

A dog that has been suspended off the ground on a choke chain until it damn near passes out is showing "calm submissive" behaviour

A dog that runs away and hides under a bed is showing dominance

Forcing a dogs tail up when it is scared will magically make it more confident and happy

A dog that is physically exhausted from excessive exercise is automatically rehabilitated or well behaved

I could go on.... but I've seen more than enough examples of CM proving beyond all reasonable doubt that he knows jack s**t about canine behaviour!

To the OP:

The longer you spend on forums like this and the more research you do into training and behaviour the quicker you'll get used to the anti-CM stuff. Of course, many people like him - in some cases (like yourself) people just don't know any better. CM is a damn good salesman; he does seem to be very convincing to people with no background knowledge of behavioural science, canine behaviour, or training methods/. Other peole have been told / shown the problems with CM and still think he;s some sort of God.

The important thing IMO is to look into everything and reach your own conclusions.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

goodvic2 said:


> Does he quickly take them off when the cameras are rolling as none
> Of the dogs wear collars from memory


Their two episodes were he advises and uses a shock collar the one with the farm dog and the one with his dog they are probably on youtube.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> Edited out. But there are plenty of stills showing his "pack" wearing them.


Id be interested to see that to be honest.

I do like CM but not all his methods.

The trouble with TV is you only see what they want you to.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I don't think a degree is the bee all and end all.
> 
> However unless a trainer is recommended or has qualifications then anyone can call themselves a dog trainee which could be very dangerous


I've never trained another persons dog, I have helped novices in the past, but by training them, not the dog.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Prowl said:


> Their two episodes were he advises and uses a shock collar the one with the farm dog and the one with his dog they are probably on youtube.


I don't know about his dog but i totally agree with the farm dog who was in danger of getting killed by the tractor wheels as it was moving.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

springerpete said:


> Anytime. pups will test your patience, they will take two steps forward and one back, just don't push too hard in the early stages, it takes time. Puppy classes, whilst I've never had to use them, seem a great way for a youngster to socialise. Please don't let your desire to get your youngster ''Trained'' detract you from enjoying his puppy period, it doesn't last long make the most of it.


Of course not, like having a young child you want them trained but not to grow up  lots of fun in this house especially with two human siblings aged 4 and 5 they absolutely adore him and he's so amazing with them


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

goodvic2 said:


> Id be interested to see that to be honest.
> 
> I do like CM but not all his methods.
> 
> The trouble with TV is you only see what they want you to.


People have also written about there experiences at his center. Where all the dogs are kept together and staff are on hand to zap any dog that looks like it's going near another dog...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Kirstyrebe said:


> Wow, been a busy bee all day and sat down to this! Sorry if I have offended people, but to my offence maybe people maybe as naive as me don't know any different and need to be educated on 'good old cm' before I open my big mouth. Unlike a lot of people I never knew of these link explaining and showing of what he really does, and I most definitely didn't know of any shocking as I'm totally against cruelty to animals. Surely he should be banned off the tv?


He has been banned in Italy and there is a group to get him banned here.



MerlinsMum said:


> Errr..... no.... They don't.
> And a lot of the dogs wear shock collars.


The dogs aren't his anyway, are they? I read that the "psychology centre" was actually a boarding kennels, which is why there are so many dogs, and they are run by other people.



goodvic2 said:


> How has he done a disservice out of interest?
> 
> Daddy appears to be a very positive role model for the breed, which has shown that the behaviour of the dog Is all about the ownership and not the breed. Surely it's a good thing having breeds like Daddy and Junior in such a positive light
> 
> ...


Daddy died some time ago and was never his dog in the first place. Junior is terrified of him and he didn't know how to train him to sit until Ian Dunbar showed him.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

If I remember correctly - wasn't it also a shock collar that he used on the GSD, that then reacted with redirected aggression and bit its owner?

Really, even though I don't believe that just because a method "owrks" it is acceptable - do CMs methods REALLY work that well?

I mean let's look at what CMs methods cause:

Dogs run away from him, or hide from him
Dog cower, back away, shake with terror or even wet themselves
Dogs pass out from asphysixiation
Dogs get worse - eg becoming more aggressive
Dogs "shut down" and stop offering ANY behaviours
Some dogs get pts, rehomed, taken back by their original rescues, or end up living with his "pack" becuase he has failed to rehabilitate them
CM gets bitten with monotonous regularity
CM gets other people bitten
CM gets dogs to fight eachother
CM succesfully forces dogs into dangerous situations; eg a st bernard running up stairs or a great dane on slippery floors
Dogs get overexercised regardless of health, age, breed etc. putting them at risk of permanent serious injury

Quite frankly if any normal person was having this sort of "success" they'd give up and go back to the drawing board!!

Certainly if dogs behaved like this around me I'd stick to goldfish!


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

goodvic2 said:


> How has he done a disservice out of interest?
> 
> Daddy appears to be a very positive role model for the breed, which has shown that the behaviour of the dog Is all about the ownership and not the breed. Surely it's a good thing having breeds like Daddy and Junior in such a positive light
> 
> ...


He has done a disservice to the breed because he has spread a lot of misinformation about them, making it seem like certain things are possible/advisable with this breed that are simply not a good idea  like keeping them in a large group. You cannot deny a breeds traits and he does that. It shows a lack of respect for the true nature of the breed and it creates an unrealistic expectation for what owners should expect of their breed of choice. If I got a bloodhound expecting it to be a good herder, youd tell me Im an idiot. Same idea.

The behavior of a dog is definitely not ALL about the owner and Im sick to death of hearing the its how you raise them line. Yes, owners need to be responsible (and throwing two dogs with a known fight history together is NOT responsible behavior), but much of the dog we end up with has to do with breed traits and inherent temperament. You cant dominance the drive out of a dog.

The fight I described earlier with the two bitches, when they started, the whole rest of the pack started, and if it werent that tons of people showed up out of the woodwork he would have had a bloodbath on his hands. 
I think he has a LOT of people constantly micromanaging the dogs when on camera, and there is definitely some heavy editing going on. 
Off camera, yes he does use shock collars even on the dog he raised himself from a pup (Junior). Its not hard to find images of Junior in a shock collar with some creative googling. Plus I dont think things on his property are as idyllic as he would like to portray. Why the need for so many non-disclosure policies from employees and those who agree to be on the show?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

UPSETTING CLIPS!!

Cesar Millan Kicking dogs - YouTube

Some of this is quite upsetting and makes me bloody angry.... No excuse none. 2.17 in and if I was near this man I'd not be responsible for my actions... and the Bulldog....

How can people find this man good? It makes my bloody boil when people make excuses for his animal cruelty...

Just edited to add, this is not directed at the OP in any shape or form..


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Meezey said:


> UPSETTING CLIPS!!
> 
> Cesar Millan Kicking dogs - YouTube
> 
> ...


I watched one and a half minutes of this and see no problem at all

A kick? It's a nudge to snap them out of their focus.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

goodvic2 said:


> I watched one and a half minutes of this and see no problem at all
> 
> A kick? It's a nudge to snap them out of their focus.


So you didn't watch the husky 2.17 mins in? and the bull dog? Strange how people who support him only see what they want to see? Take a look at 2.17 mins in, or shall I take a screen shot of him with holding a full grown Bulldog up by his scruff and swinging him round? Did you have your sound on too?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

ouesi said:


> He has done a disservice to the breed because he has spread a lot of misinformation about them, making it seem like certain things are possible/advisable with this breed that are simply not a good idea  like keeping them in a large group. You cannot deny a breeds traits and he does that. It shows a lack of respect for the true nature of the breed and it creates an unrealistic expectation for what owners should expect of their breed of choice. If I got a bloodhound expecting it to be a good herder, youd tell me Im an idiot. Same idea.
> 
> The behavior of a dog is definitely not ALL about the owner and Im sick to death of hearing the its how you raise them line. Yes, owners need to be responsible (and throwing two dogs with a known fight history together is NOT responsible behavior), but much of the dog we end up with has to do with breed traits and inherent temperament. You cant dominance the drive out of a dog.
> 
> ...


I do Agree about breed traits and not always being able to over ride them.

Not sure what you think about a "big group". I think staffies and pitts have some similarities. I know people with 6 staffies and crosses. They manage the situation but I agree that perhaps a lot of people couldn't

I haven't been to his centre so can only go on what I see. Clearly if the dogs are walking around being electrocuted then this is unacceptable.

Do you have a link to photos of dogs in his centre wearing shock collars? I only ask cause I haven't seen it


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

goodvic2 said:


> I watched one and a half minutes of this and see no problem at all
> 
> A kick? It's a nudge to snap them out of their focus.


That's entirely your prerogative to see nothing wrong, but I have to ask you, how do you see the dogs reacting? Do the dogs look happy about it?

What if I told you that all the issues he's dealing with with kicks (nudges), can be solved without the dogs looking unhappy or reactive - just as quickly, just as effectively and often more so?

Which method do you think the dog would choose if it were up to them?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colette said:


> Personally I'm not convinced that:
> 
> A dog shakes because its learning
> 
> ...


A dog with his willy sticking out is not being dominant either!

The problem with the majority of his followers is that they are like the moonies, totally brainwashed and will never hear a word to persuade them they are wrong.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Meezey said:


> So you didn't watch the husky 2.17 mins in? and the bull dog? Strange how people who support him only see what they want to see? Take a look at 2.17 mins in, or shall I take a screen shot of him with holding a full grown Bulldog up by his scruff and swinging him round? Did you have your sound on too?


I've seen the whole shows in the past (except the lab one) not just the edited clips.

The husky was a nightmare. I have no idea what the issue is with the bulldog

But it is about perception. And after 6 yrs on this forum I know that with regards to CM people have their own perceptions


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Meezey said:


> UPSETTING CLIPS!!
> 
> Cesar Millan Kicking dogs - YouTube
> 
> ...


Definitely an eye opener


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

ouesi said:


> That's entirely your prerogative to see nothing wrong, but I have to ask you, how do you see the dogs reacting? Do the dogs look happy about it?
> 
> What if I told you that all the issues he's dealing with with kicks (nudges), can be solved without the dogs looking unhappy or reactive - just as quickly, just as effectively and often more so?
> 
> Which method do you think the dog would choose if it were up to them?


Id say I look forward to watching your show


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

It beggers belief that some people can watch dogs being kicked and still think its acceptable!

Would it be acceptable if I kicked my OH in the guts every time he wound me up? 
What if I decide to bring up my kids the same way - using kicks, electric shocks, grabbing them round the throat, slamming them to the floor?
Maybe I should start kicking my cats too?

If your child pi$$ed himself and started shaking when approached by one his teachers would you not think something was wrong?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> A dog with his willy sticking out is not being dominant either!
> 
> The problem with the majority of his followers is that they are like the moonies, totally brainwashed and will never hear a word to persuade them they are wrong.


Very true, swinging dogs round by the scruff, kicking them with roller blades on, swinging them round by a choke chain you've just made out of a lead because the dog reacted to you kicking it, then kicking it because it reacted badly to a stranger it had never seen walk in to it's house and hit it.. All perfectly acceptable, the fact people who have left there dogs at his "center" have written testimonies about his use of shock collars, the fact he admits to using them, fact that even those who sell and use shock collars in their own training say he abuses them, the fact that he has been taken to court of animal cruelty, and sued, means nothing... Some people just chose to ignore animal cruelty...


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> I watched one and a half minutes of this and see no problem at all
> 
> A kick? It's a nudge to snap them out of their focus.


I am bemused, you support dogs in need of space on your siggy but don't see any issues? As an owner of a dog who has needed space and is a testimony to the power of the clicker and positive training, I find your views a wee bit contradictory.

Yes editing does count for a lot I agree, but having had the misfortune to meet someone who believed in cruel methods of training, he cited CM as one of his 'heroes'. Arguably portrayal by media aside, he puts forward a point of view that influences others like the idiot I met and thus leads to a miserable life for dogs.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Kirstyrebe said:


> Definitely an eye opener


Sorry, I wouldn't normally post stuff like that, but there is no good about someone who abuses a dog in the name of "training". I for one am glad he no longer makes his Dog Whisperer program , just wish he would be off our screens full stop.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Colette said:


> It beggers belief that some people can watch dogs being kicked and still think its acceptable!
> 
> Would it be acceptable if I kicked my OH in the guts every time he wound me up?
> What if I decide to bring up my kids the same way - using kicks, electric shocks, grabbing them round the throat, slamming them to the floor?
> ...


Not a bad idea trying it on the kids  anything for a quieter life he he, bad mummy


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2014)

goodvic2 said:


> Id say I look forward to watching your show


That's the thing though. Behavior modification done right is no show. It's about as exciting as watching paint dry.

Dogs are kept below threshold, nothing exciting happens, and unless you're a total behavior nerd willing to watch the intricacies of a slight lip-lick or slow blink, there's nothing remotely interesting for the general public to watch.

In order to make for exciting TV that people will watch and advertisers will pay for, you need the blow-ups and the snarling dogs, and the freaked out owners. None of that is what any proper behaviorist wants to create.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

goodvic2 said:


> I've seen the whole shows in the past (except the lab one) not just the edited clips.
> 
> The husky was a nightmare. I have no idea what the issue is with the bulldog
> 
> But it is about perception. And after 6 yrs on this forum I know that with regards to CM people have their own perceptions


If you see no wrong with it which is totally up to you, it says a lot more about you than you think.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I watched one and a half minutes of this and see no problem at all
> 
> *A kick? It's a nudge to snap them out of their focus*.


They aren't nudges; he's kicking them.

I know someone who thinks Cesar Milan is a great dog behaviourist and does that with his own dogs; it makes me sick in the stomach when I've seen him do it.

I couldn't do to my dogs what he does in the video. I remember with my first dog, being told to flick his nose with my finger to get him to release a ball. I didn't have it in me to do that, so I won't be kicking either of them anytime soon.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

ouesi said:


> That's the thing though. Behavior modification done right is no show. It's about as exciting as watching paint dry.
> 
> Dogs are kept below threshold, nothing exciting happens, and unless you're a total behavior nerd willing to watch the intricacies of a slight lip-lick or slow blink, there's nothing remotely interesting for the general public to watch.
> 
> In order to make for exciting TV that people will watch and advertisers will pay for, you need the blow-ups and the snarling dogs, and the freaked out owners. None of that is what any proper behaviorist wants to create.


That is very true.

And I definitely agree that there are other methods more suitable. I have no problems "nudging" my dogs if they are focused and I need to snap them out of it. But hell would freeze over before i put an ecollar on them or wrestled them to the floor.

On the contrary my foster dog would bite me before he would accept any confrontation methods! And my staffy x boy Sammy would be terrified if I alpha rolled him. Again hell would freeze over before I did that


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

goodvic2 said:


> That is very true.
> 
> And I definitely agree that there are other methods more suitable. I have no problems "nudging" my dogs if they are focused and I need to snap them out of it. But hell would freeze over before i put an ecollar on them or wrestled them to the floor.
> 
> On the contrary my foster dog would bite me before he would accept any confrontation methods! And my staffy x boy Sammy would be terrified if I alpha rolled him. Again hell would freeze over before I did that


Why would you need to kick them for focus? Is that what you recommend for DINOS?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> He uses shock collars.
> 
> He uses shock collars.
> 
> I think there's an echo in here!


and editing of the films


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I like his teeth and I admire his English.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> I like his teeth and I admire his English.


lolololololololololol........but what about his dogs?lol bet they have nice teeth too.lol


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> I like his teeth


All the better to eat you with.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> I like his teeth and I admire his English.


Doubt they are even his!!!!!


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

I don't think all his techniques are good but have used the door owning idea, also one of my rescues was so fearful and on a walk l tried nudging " no kicking allowed" and it helped.it helped to snap her out of her fear and concentrate on me as she wasn't food or toy orientated.

One answer doesn't fit all dogs and if you modify certain techniques they can be of benefit.l also use tellington touch,body massage and laying on the floor back to back with some of my rescues to help them .l have had to use what works best for each and every one and l will admit on one dog l ended up trying a prong collar because nothing else worked and she was a nightmare.used it twice and everything changed she still pulls but is on a more normal headcollar.don't know what the three previous owners did to her but l refused to give up on her like them.

I will never use a shock collar ever!!!!!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I can never understand why people are 100% against Cesar. IF, all of those that don't like him and would like to change people views of him, do you honestly believe that bringing stupid things like his teeth into the debate will help? It's so silly, it's enough to put anyone off of taking your opinion serious.
I have an open mind and i have seen many of CM's shows.
I will also say, i don't know enough about shock collars to condemn the guy for using them.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> That is very true.
> 
> And I definitely agree that there are other methods more suitable. I have no problems "nudging" my dogs if they are focused and I need to snap them out of it. But hell would freeze over before i put an ecollar on them or wrestled them to the floor.
> 
> On the contrary my foster dog would bite me before he would accept any confrontation methods! And my staffy x boy Sammy would be terrified if I alpha rolled him. Again hell would freeze over before I did that


If you are against all these things, why do you stick up for someone who goes on telly and tells millions of ignorant dog owners that this is the way to train their dogs? Even one barbaric method coming from someone like him is one too many. If he was just an idiot "trainer" in the village hall once a week, that would be bad enough, but he is in a position to cause no end of damage to no end of dogs. That is why everything he does is dissected and people really should not say "well he's not all bad". Hitler wasn't all bad - he saved Germany from bankruptcy, he was a great leader. Does that mean we should forget the millions he murdered or the damage he did?



Meezey said:


> Why would you need to kick them for focus? Is that what you recommend for DINOS?


Goodvic said nudge, not kick. I nudge my dogs occasionally, usually to get them out of the way of the door so I can get in, but that is a quick push with my hip or thigh.

Ferdie particularly would not stand for any of those bully boy methods. Treat him like that you are very likely to get bitten as he is heavier and stronger than me and he needs to believe that every decision is his own. That is very easily achieved, so why make work for yourself?


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2014)

I can

I can see the damage it does to a dogs confidence when I work with them. Assertiveness kills a dogs confidence and if you ever want a trainer or dog walker to walk your dog who is half decent its going to be bl**dy hard work training the fear out of them so they can walk them safely some dogs I have stopped walking because of their aggression problems its such a common problem and very sad to see.

His methods DO make a dog reliant on its owner so much that it can't think for itself when its with someone else in a family environemnt its dangerous and unfair.

Aggression is a serious and very common problem among pet dogs and I hold this CM responsible for it for making us think assertiveness and dominance are the way to go its not.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Personally I would be very interested in why after being shown time and time again why many detest this mans "training" that people defend this showman...

Lesser men have been stoned for causing far less confusion and pain in our pets...yet time and time again we get "But look at all the good he has done"

Errrr......anyone care to point out exactly what that good is? Because quite frankly I don't see it.... But then it is same for the Parrellilites (within the horse world)..no matter what you say there will be people that just do not wish to open their eyes or minds and would much rather believe and follow a jumped up egotistic idiot.....which is sad IMO


There will always be people looking for the short cut when doing things, and whilst they still exist then people like this charlaton will continue to be popular...
It is amusing that the "fans" constantly brush over the fact that this man is BANNED in many countries....That isn't something countries do for the sake of it ya know :sneaky2:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> Personally I would be very interested in why after being shown time and time again why many detest this mans "training" that people defend this showman...
> 
> Lesser men have been stoned for causing far less confusion and pain in our pets...yet time and time again we get "But look at all the good he has done"
> 
> ...


I'm with you there. It is always him or his henchmen who tell the audience that a dog was about to be put to sleep before he came along, or that it was a red zone dog, or whatever other rubbish. At least on VS show you get follow ups to see how the dog is doing and I only remember one that it was recommended the owners did not keep and that was their vet who said he had rage syndrome.

There is never a follow up. The Holly video is a real eye opener about how little this bloke actually knows. Food guarding is one of the easiest things to either sort out or manage. Either would do really.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> If you are against all these things, why do you stick up for someone who goes on telly and tells millions of ignorant dog owners that this is the way to train their dogs? Even one barbaric method coming from someone like him is one too many. If he was just an idiot "trainer" in the village hall once a week, that would be bad enough, but he is in a position to cause no end of damage to no end of dogs. That is why everything he does is dissected and people really should not say "well he's not all bad". Hitler wasn't all bad - he saved Germany from bankruptcy, he was a great leader. Does that mean we should forget the millions he murdered or the damage he did?


Thank you for asking. I'm deliberately not replying to some of the comments as I know how these threads go 

When I got my 2 greekies I found it really hard work and a lot of what he said made sense. His programmes made me realise that not everyone had the perfect dog (hence why I wrote my DINOS site) and motivated me to keep going. I've had them 6 years now. No doubt there are many other trainers who could have done even better but as a new dog owner I didn't know where to go to and he was on television so accessible. I did try some of his more controversial methods. I remember alpha rolling Max once. Needless to say it didn't work and I never used it again!

I am not adverse to a check of the lead or a nudge to the body to "snap" them out of that focus, but that is all.

I think CM has done some really good work. He has raised the plight of rescues, especially pitt bulls (although some say in a negative way). He has also got people thinking that they do actually need to walk their dogs  I also think that he has done some harm. People should not be shown how to alpha roll a dog or that everything is down to dominance or submission. Life isn't black and white. I dislike ecollars and would like to see them banned *along with crates* as these are even more open to abuse. But I can understand why he has used them on the odd occasion.

Years ago his methods were the done thing, we have progressed and I believe his new shows are far less confrontational.

I just believe in giving him a bit of credit 

Could he have used his fame to deliver a kinder, more positive influence on the dog world? absolutely he could. But he doesn't do what he does to be cruel, it is what works for him.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Thank you for asking. I'm deliberately not replying to some of the comments as I know how these threads go
> 
> When I got my 2 greekies I found it really hard work and a lot of what he said made sense. His programmes made me realise that not everyone had the perfect dog (hence why I wrote my DINOS site) and motivated me to keep going. I've had them 6 years now. No doubt there are many other trainers who could have done even better but as a new dog owner I didn't know where to go to and he was on television so accessible. I did try some of his more controversial methods. I remember alpha rolling Max once. Needless to say it didn't work and I never used it again!
> 
> ...


Oh, dear! Putting crates in the same phrase as e collars will not be a popular move! I cannot say I don't agree with you, though as I hate the things.

I think my point is that not all new dog owners have your common sense and that is what worries me. If someone tried to alpha roll an independent breed like Ferdie, they would get bitten, then the likes of CM would come along and tell me he should not be kept cos he is dangerous, just like that Holly who bit him out of desperation when all her signals for peace were ignored. She would not have bitten anyone else in the family, but these people just believed him and let him take her.

They are the sort of people that worry me about him. Then there are the ones that just spout all the rubbish he talks without giving it any thought, without reasoning it out. When I got Ferdie some silly moo told me I mustn't let him on the sofa or he would think he was the pack leader. When I replied: codswallop! How many sofas are there in the wild? she had no idea what to say. The basic theory that the pack leader is always higher up than the other dogs, bs though it is, had totally escaped her.

He once had a newfie on his show who would not eat. Turned out the owner cooked him chickenburgers and followed him all around the house, wherever he happened to be, to feed him instead of making him come to his bowl. When asked how often he was walked, the answer was they tried once but he wouldn't go so they had never tried again. Well no puppy really wants to go for a walk to start with, but newfies are notorious for it.

So she or someone watching could think, well his method worked for this that or the other, so he must know what he's talking about when it comes to e-collars and prong collars and those awful cesar invented illusion collars or any other barbaric implements.

Do you see where I am coming from?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Oh, dear! Putting crates in the same phrase as e collars will not be a popular move! I cannot say I don't agree with you, though as I hate the things.
> 
> I think my point is that not all new dog owners have your common sense and that is what worries me. If someone tried to alpha roll an independent breed like Ferdie, they would get bitten, then the likes of CM would come along and tell me he should not be kept cos he is dangerous, just like that Holly who bit him out of desperation when all her signals for peace were ignored. She would not have bitten anyone else in the family, but these people just believed him and let him take her.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree with you.

And if I was asked the question about whether his controversial methods should be shown on tele then I'd say no! As you correctly say it can be bloody dangerous to take on a dog not to mention frighten them to death.

I haven't said any where that I support all his methods. And somebody with his power can do a lot of damage.

Not sure overall if he has done more harm than good. That is another debate and to be honest how can we possibly measure it ?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Oh, dear! Putting crates in the same phrase as e collars will not be a popular move! I cannot say I don't agree with you, though as I hate the things.


The thing with crates IMO is that for every person on here who uses them correctly there are plenty more who use them as punishment, or to keep the dog locked up for endless hours. Working In rescue we hear of the abusive cases.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> The thing with crates IMO is that for every person on here who uses them correctly there are plenty more who use them as punishment, or to keep the dog locked up for endless hours. Working In rescue we hear of the abusive cases.


I agree. The only reason I would use one is to keep either a puppy or a sick dog safe from the other dogs and then only for short periods.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> I agree. The only reason I would use one is to keep either a puppy or a sick dog safe from the other dogs and then only for short periods.


I would use a crate if I had a dog from a puppy, as I think that there's nothing wrong with them. I do, however; think there are WAY too many people that use crates incorrectly, and as such animals suffer (Not just Dogs either).

<Controversy>

Maybe it's time we had dog licensing bought back, and just like driving, you need to take a test to get said licence. Charge for the test, and see how many fewer irresponsible owners you get. After all; a dog is just as dangerous in the wrong hands as a car!

Testing will allow up front training for the owner (dogs need relatively little training in comparison to *some* owners I know), dispelling myths and bad practices, and may prevent a lot of pups/dogs ending up in rescues.

Granted there will be those that pass the test and will still be completely irresponsible, but maybe, just maybe it'll discourage a fair few of them?

</Controversy>


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Frenchwood said:


> I would use a crate if I had a dog from a puppy, as I think that there's nothing wrong with them. I do, however; think there are WAY too many people that use crates incorrectly, and as such animals suffer (Not just Dogs either).
> 
> <Controversy>
> 
> ...


Like car drivers, you mean? The trouble with these things is that they always end up with the wrong people in charge. You will get testers who don't know one end of a dog from the other, like the government muppets who dreamed up the breed specific legislation. And then you have people who have severe learning difficulties but are wonderful with animals, like a friend of my sons. No way could he pass a test of any description, but he works on a farm and the animals adore him.

I am not a great believer in tests of any description and as for the dog licence, well that never worked before and there are still battles to prevent people taking driving tests for other people, and I doubt they would take the same precautions for a dog licence test.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> Like car drivers, you mean? The trouble with these things is that they always end up with the wrong people in charge. You will get testers who don't know one end of a dog from the other, like the government muppets who dreamed up the breed specific legislation. And then you have people who have severe learning difficulties but are wonderful with animals, like a friend of my sons. No way could he pass a test of any description, but he works on a farm and the animals adore him.
> 
> I am not a great believer in tests of any description and as for the dog licence, well that never worked before and there are still battles to prevent people taking driving tests for other people, and I doubt they would take the same precautions for a dog licence test.


Yes like car drivers. Best not get me started on how/where/why the tests are Sooooo wrong. 

I understand what you're saying about those with learning difficulties, but that's no different to a disabled driver. The test has to allow for those situations, as does the education. Schools have to allow for this with a different approach, as should any testing process. Just because someone is challenged in terms of their ability to take a test, doesn't mean that they should lose out. Just that a different path is walked to the same end result. Maybe it's not even a case of a test at the end of it all, just a certificate of proficiency? Either way, add a cost association, and that would deter many of the whimsical dog owners.

I think that by getting the *right* people in charge, it *could* work. Granted, it would be difficult, to set up, implement, and police over the future, but I'm sure it would be welcomed in some circles (Rescue centres? Dogs Trust?). Then Maybe just _Maybe_, we can stop blaming breed specific traits in dogs for the acts that are perpetrated by idiotic owners through stupidity, negligence or ill will, and we can stop worrying about people becoming educated by the likes of outdated "Trainers" like CM!

Anyway, I'll get off of my soap box now!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Frenchwood said:


> Yes like car drivers. Best not get me started on how/where/why the tests are Sooooo wrong.
> 
> I understand what you're saying about those with learning difficulties, but that's no different to a disabled driver. The test has to allow for those situations, as does the education. Schools have to allow for this with a different approach, as should any testing process. Just because someone is challenged in terms of their ability to take a test, doesn't mean that they should lose out. Just that a different path is walked to the same end result. Maybe it's not even a case of a test at the end of it all, just a certificate of proficiency? Either way, add a cost association, and that would deter many of the whimsical dog owners.
> 
> ...


But we still have the normal problems. People who would take the test, probably don't need it because they are responsible people who will learn from books or courses and love their dogs. Ones who just want a dog and can't be bothered, will not bother to take any test or buy a licence. There will always be puppy farmers and the like who couldn't care less who they sell to.

I was a driving instructor for 20 years and I have had more than my share of drivers who could not be bothered to take the test and have just been driving alone for years. Often, their only reason for taking it at last is because they got caught!


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> But we still have the normal problems. People who would take the test, probably don't need it because they are responsible people who will learn from books or courses and love their dogs. Ones who just want a dog and can't be bothered, will not bother to take any test or buy a licence. There will always be puppy farmers and the like who couldn't care less who they sell to.
> 
> I was a driving instructor for 20 years and I have had more than my share of drivers who could not be bothered to take the test and have just been driving alone for years. Often, their only reason for taking it at last is because they got caught!


Agreed, as with any system there are always those who want to circumvent. Although Puppy farmers is a totally separate issue, and again is an issue where the consumer needs to be educated. (I'll not rant about that *just yet*!  )

I think that putting in controls will always be difficult, and policing them even more-so. I guess it's simply a case of doing whatever we (as a general population) can do to help those who generally ARE interested in becoming more educated (and I don't just mean as dog owners either...).

As a sideline point; my Dad said this to me after I passed my test all those years ago:
"Well done. Now you've passed your test you can REALLY start to learn how to drive" lol


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Have dog licences here make no difference those who are responsible dog owners buy them, those who aren't don't! Bit like cleaning up dog poo threat of a £500 fine doesn't stop them leaving it!!!

Also there is nudging and kicking CM kicked those dogs he didn't nudge, nudging doesn't make that sound and you can't call kicking a dog with roller blades on a nudge!


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

I haven't posted on here for a while, but I do check in from time to time to see what's being said. This thread has prompted me to add my thoughts.

I used to be one of Cesar's biggest advocates, but I no longer think of him as highly. His harsher methods leave a lot to be desired and I would never yank my dogs necks. Have I turned completely against him? No. I still think a lot of what he says and does makes sense. His no touch-no talk-no eye contact is brilliant when it comes to more fearful dogs. It's a great way of building trust with them. His methods are NOT all dominance based. I have seen him use lots of positive reinforcement on his shows. Be that heaps of praise and/or treats. I often hear him say that dogs need exercise, mental stimulation, and leadership and that a lot of behavioural problems stem from the lack of those things. That is absolutely correct. There have been times when he has actually taken a prong collar off as he has felt that it is not the correct tool to use. Not all e-collars deliver shocks. Some will only vibrate and the ones that do shock deliver a lesser voltage than electric fencing used to corral horses and other larger animals. Should the people who use electric fencing be subjected to the same kind of abuse as Millan? People will criticise him for using those things, but will then go and put a halti on a dog and those are just as harmful. And should martingales be banned too? However, I do think that e-collars are too often abused. The pictures of dogs whose necks have been scorched are far from pleasant. I firmly believe that e-collars should only be used as a last resort and used by somebody who knows exactly what they are doing. The anti-Millan brigade will also gleefully recommend Victoria Stilwell and I will get onto her a little later.

This thread also speaks volumes for the extent to which his detractors will go to sully his name. I have never heard of him being likened to a white supremacist who exterminated thousands of innocent people and their pets just because of their race. Nope, not heard that before until now. Whoever made that comparison should be ashamed - very ashamed. They will also become rude and hurl verbal abuse at anybody who dares to defend Millan. I also read on here that Millan has been banned in Italy. I looked for proof of that, but couldn't find any. It has also been said that he has been banned in Denmark, but the last time I checked his show is still being broadcast there.

I have seen the Shadow episode (the full one - not the edited version that is floating about online). When Cesar started to 'battle' with Shadow, it was because he became focussed on a dog that he reacted badly to before (the people who upload 'that' clip like to leave that fact out). Whilst I do think Cesar's handling of the situation was a bit over-the-top, I certainly don't think he was 'hanging' the dog. Watch closely and you will see that Cesar relaxed the lead quite a bit and gave affection to the dog when he was in a calmer state of mind. Another lie about that clip is that the dog collapsed. Cesar could clearly be seen pushing the dog gently to the ground. It was something that looked worse than it actually was. I have also taken a couple of screen captures of Shadow licking his lips and his tongue certainly did NOT turn blue. The video quality isn't great, but it's good enough to see that his tongue was pink.





People will also use the fact that you have to sign various forms before appearing on his show as a way to criticise him. When you appear on television (even being interviewed for the news) you have to sign a consent form and depending on the type of show, you will have to sign other forms. The forms for Stilwell's show are worded very similarly to Cesar's.

As for Victoria Stilwell. Where do I begin? She is a liar and there is strong evidence to believe that she was sued by a British channel for leading them to believe that she was a qualified trainer when in actual fact she didn't have one to her name. There is an interview on YouTube with a behaviourist called Robert Alleyne. He talks about puppy socialisation and then goes onto discuss a well known and glamorous trainer who was successfully sued by the channel that employed her. He never mentioned her name, but everything points to the woman being Victoria Stilwell. The reason being that she hadn't a training qualification to her name and had led the channel to believe she was qualified. This was a case of fraud. He spoke of her not having owned a dog until her show had started. This is true as VS didn't own her first dog until later adulthood. He also said that she recommended a dog be put down because she believed it wasn't trainable and that it was featured in an episode of her show. That episode would have been the one with Benji the Cocker Spaniel. The dog that she recommended be put down over the phone. That episode has been omitted from the episode guide on her website. A guilty conscience perhaps? Another thing he said that indicated the woman was VS is that the lawsuit was recent. The interview was uploaded in 2009 and it was around 2008 when Stilwell upped sticks and moved to America. The interview can be watched here. What do you think?

Her methods also leave a lot to be desired. I can remember an episode of her British series when she actually got a guy to sit on the floor to try and make his dog think the floor was better than the sofa! That same dog bit a visitor to the home after she said the dog wouldn't. She was oblivious to the dog's warning signals as he gave quite a few that she should have noticed. She also uses cans of pressurised air to make a very similar sound to Cesar's 'tsssst' and loud speakers. She thinks that crates are cruel and recommends baby gates (which were designed for small human children and not dogs). She also failed Benji miserably with her ineptitude. She also made a big song and dance about trying to save Lennox (the dog who was killed by Belfast City Council and who was the subject of a massive web campaign after he was seized for being an 'illegal type'). She said she would boycott the city then she went and uploaded pictures to one of her websites of her and her daughter enjoying the sights in and around Belfast. She even offered Lennox a home in America, but was forced to admit afterwards that there was nothing she could have done to save him. She also thinks her methods are the only ones that should be used. The complete opposite of what Cesar says. He has been saying for a good long while that his aren't the only ones that people should consider.

Now is this a woman who should be recommended or frowned upon? Both her conduct and attitude are much worse than anything Cesar has done.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I haven't posted on here for a while, but I do check in from time to time to see what's being said. This thread has prompted me to add my thoughts.
> 
> I used to be one of Cesar's biggest advocates, but I no longer think of him as highly. His harsher methods leave a lot to be desired and I would never yank my dogs necks. Have I turned completely against him? No. I still think a lot of what he says and does makes sense. His no touch-no talk-no eye contact is brilliant when it comes to more fearful dogs. It's a great way of building trust with them. His methods are NOT all dominance based. I have seen him use lots of positive reinforcement on his shows. Be that heaps of praise and/or treats. I often hear him say that dogs need exercise, mental stimulation, and leadership and that a lot of behavioural problems stem from the lack of those things. That is absolutely correct. There have been times when he has actually taken a prong collar off as he has felt that it is not the correct tool to use. Not all e-collars deliver shocks. Some will only vibrate and the ones that do shock deliver a lesser voltage than electric fencing used to corral horses and other larger animals. Should the people who use electric fencing be subjected to the same kind of abuse as Millan? People will criticise him for using those things, but will then go and put a halti on a dog and those are just as harmful. And should martingales be banned too? However, I do think that e-collars are too often abused. The pictures of dogs whose necks have been scorched are far from pleasant. I firmly believe that e-collars should only be used as a last resort and used by somebody who knows exactly what they are doing. The anti-Millan brigade will also gleefully recommend Victoria Stilwell and I will get onto her a little later.
> 
> ...


It was me that likened him to Hitler and no I am not ashamed, not in the least. And by saying that I likened him to Hitler is a good example of how Cesar Millan fanatics twist words to suit themselves. It was posts declaring that he was not all bad that prompted my comparison, because Hitler wasn't all bad either. That is not the same thing at all, as well you would know if you had bothered to read it properly.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

Kirstyrebe said:


> This man is a genius, just lately been watching his programmes due to having Ronnie, would love to have a trainer like him around here!


Like you I am relatively new to PF. But I have read through a few threads on here before I opened an account. It was very clear to me that Pet Forum promotes positive training and it is good manners, in my opinion, to at least get the feel of a forum before jumping in with such an offensive opening post. There must be fan sites (my heart breaks if there is) where you can promote your (antiquated) views.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Pawscrossed said:


> Like you I am relatively new to PF. But I have read through a few threads on here before I opened an account. It was very clear to me that Pet Forum promotes positive training and it is good manners, in my opinion, to at least get the feel of a forum before jumping in with such an offensive opening post. There must be fan sites (my heart breaks if there is) where you can promote your (antiquated) views.


I do not think there is any need for rudeness in this instance. Very often new members do not know how to search and this member seems to be taking our views on board. We will never change people's views by telling them to go elsewhere.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I haven't exactly used his methods but have taken advice from his shows on aspects of how I come across to the dogs if I'm unsure of myself. 
One of the best pieces of advice I took was to not take my dog out if he was excitable and also if I was dreading how he'd behave and I didn't feel like taking him out that day. I thought you had to go out everyday regardless and often went out when I was a bag of nerves, making for an awful walk for both of us. Just having the occasional day off worked like magic and I'd feel so much better the following day. I had been to training classes but they focused on the dog only and (although it makes perfect sense now) they never taught us that our body language was as important, if not more so, as our dogs. So taking him out when I was a bag of nerves was setting us both up to fail. That's what I learned in those early days from him, I wasn't a forum member of any kind and I only had my trainer/behaviourist for advice in those days. 
Now I concentrate much more on my persona than that of my dog because if I'm calm and confident so is he. 
Some people get carried away with his style of training and I've seen many on a US Mal forum and still today on a US based Facebook group who strongly believe in the dominance theory - many not even knowing who Ceasar Milann even is, so its just an outdated form of training which was used by many, years ago. 

I haven't seen a programme of his for a couple of years but he had definitely moved on from the earlier ones in the last few I saw, started using reward for correct behaviour too. Probably had something to do with working with Ian Dunbar I suppose, which is a good thing. Some people are so set in their ways with old fashioned training methods that its very hard to try and convert them to a more positive approach and its not exactly rocket science to be able to filter out what parts of his training may be derogatory to your dog, even if it seems to work with some of the helpless cases he trains. Its just common sense but then some people don't appear to be very good at having that ability and may follow his techniques ( even though clearly advised not to) and could find themselves at the perils of a very angry, wound up dog.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> I do not think there is any need for rudeness in this instance. Very often new members do not know how to search and this member seems to be taking our views on board. We will never change people's views by telling them to go elsewhere.


My apologies, it makes my blood boil a little. I have found PF to be a very easy site to use apart from loading up images!

Apologies OP, I am glad that you are finding feedback useful.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Have to agree a lot with what LurcherGreyhoundGirl says, the haters only show bits of clips that look awful (and yes they do) but you can't get the full story buy just showing the negatives of a programme. Victoria Stilwell has her good points but isn't my kind of trainer either tbh, although I don't believe in being too forceful I do believe you at least need some b*lls when handling certain dogs and her namby pamby approach is pretty futile. In order to feel safe and have confidence in you they need strength of character, they need to know you are strong for them and to do that you neither need to punish or pussy foot.

Someone said to me recently that I overthink where the dogs are concerned and that my past dogs were easy to train and very good dogs, just being treated like dogs. That since joining forums, watching TV trainers and reading books the dogs I have now are the most challenging I've ever had and that too much conflicting advice was to blame. Could be right judging by how many people on forums, TV, groups etc experience problems these days.
Saw this pic in Dogs monthly recently and remember that you could just sit side by side with any animals at the vets, no dog reactiveness and you never even thought there would be. Mind you they weren't covered in chemicals constantly to de flea, over vaccinated, fed foods with additives, had owners following ridiculous PC methods or neutered - just the animals they were expected to be, your ordinary family pet.


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

wow,is this still going.blimey.malmum is right,im50,when we had family dogs,they went everywhere with us,we expected them to behave,we didn't actively "train".they all wore check collars,were fed leftovers,not wormed ,flead all the time.most weren't doctored.maybe theres too much pressure for "perfect"social dogs.in my mind we do over train,try to instill behaviours into them,have to add we didn't exhaust them with hours of exercise,if we had time they got walked,if not they had a lazy day in the house/garden.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Saw this pic in Dogs monthly recently and remember that you could just sit side by side with any animals at the vets, no dog reactiveness and you never even thought there would be. Mind you they weren't covered in chemicals constantly to de flea, over vaccinated, fed foods with additives, had owners following ridiculous PC methods or neutered - just the animals they were expected to be, your ordinary family pet.


The majority of times I've been to the vets this is how it's been in the waiting room  MY dog couldn't do that. MY dog was reactive. Nothing to do with being neutered, over vaccinated, de-fleaed, fed crap etc, everything to do with the fact he thought other dogs were going to hurt him. But a lot of the time the other dogs were mostly sitting quietly. The waiting room being so small was an issue for me and my dog as were the numpty owners.

When I go to the vets now the majority of dogs, my own included, sit quietly. Yes, you get the odd numpty or the odd reactive dog but it's far from the norm in my experience.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I have also taken a couple of screen captures of Shadow licking his lips and his tongue certainly did NOT turn blue. The video quality isn't great, but it's good enough to see that his tongue was pink.
> 
> 
> 
> That tongue is not a healthy colour unless Huskys tongues are different to Goldens. That is the colour Alfies tongue was a few months ago when he passed out due to lack of oxygen one night when he was having breathing issues


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

That screen shot is not clear enough to see much...I see an unhealthy tongue as it is pale....tongues don't turn bright blue, they have a tinge...


Funny how the methods that CM takes from others (walking your dog regularly was not made up by him) are the one thing that people bring up....so what? He has a few things that other trainers also teach.......how does that negate kicking (sorry nudging..cos that is possible with heavy blades on ), strangling, yanking, punching, poking and pushing these dogs into a reaction....MAKING them go over threshold for entertainment????


Just how?

VS has her problems as any TV entertainer will do...the difference is VS has grown and changed as the years have gone by....just because she had her issues in the past does not mean that makes CM awesome by comparison....NEITHER should be shown on TV...however, I would prefer to send people to watch VS over the bully ANY day of the week....

Still no one can show me what this man has actually done for dogs?? I can bring up plenty of examples of the disservice that he has done...but no good as of yet.....But I am called jealous on many occasions because I speak out against his "methods"


It's funny how the sheep effect works :lol:


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Have to agree a lot with what LurcherGreyhoundGirl says, the haters only show bits of clips that look awful (and yes they do) but you can't get the full story buy just showing the negatives of a programme. Victoria Stilwell has her good points but isn't my kind of trainer either tbh, although I don't believe in being too forceful I do believe you at least *need some b*lls *when handling certain dogs and her *namby pamby approach is pretty futile*. In order to feel safe and have confidence in you they need strength of character, they need to know you are strong for them and to do that you neither need to punish or pussy foot.
> 
> Someone said to me recently that I overthink where the dogs are concerned and that my past dogs were easy to train and very good dogs, just being treated like dogs. That since joining forums, watching TV trainers and reading books the dogs I have now are the most challenging I've ever had and that too much conflicting advice was to blame. Could be right *judging by how many people on forums, TV, groups etc experience problems these days*.
> Saw this pic in Dogs monthly recently and remember that you could just sit side by side with any animals at the vets, *no dog reactiveness and you never even thought there would be*. Mind you they weren't covered in chemicals constantly to de flea, over vaccinated, fed foods with additives, had owners following ridiculous PC methods or neutered - just the animals they were expected to be, your ordinary family pet.


Malmum, those first two bolded bits, what do you define as 'balls' and whats 'namby pamby' please can you expand?

The third bolded bit is likely untrue, of course there 'appears' to be more problem dogs on forums and in groups dealing with dogs and their behaviour, even just general dog ownership groups, people who have no problems whatsoever dont tend to join the forums or groups, the proportion of dog owners on forums and in groups must be miniscule compared to those that dont, in fact I dont know of anyone IRL who is a member of a forum or dog group who I haven't met through such things. As for the tv programs well they wouldn't be very sensational if they dealt with well balanced calm confident dogs would they?

The fourth bolded bit, do you know what I see? Its not happy, confident, calm and relaxed dogs thats for certain.

The final bit you state, can you explain where the evidence is that all those things are creating these monster dogs that you think roam the streets? I know there is some anecdotal evidence that the chemical intake of our dogs harms them but frankly I have never seen any real hard facts just wishy washy scaremongering, I would be delighted if you had some scientific proof.

There are more good quality, easily available feeds on the market than ever, but people choose not to feed them, on the whole they want the convenience of picking up the same additive heavy feeds in the supermarket that they have been buying for the last 50 years .

As for neutering being the horrific mutilation you seem to think it is (when convenient ) where is the evidence? The hard facts, not just your own experience, that the negative effects outweigh the benefits?

Finally I would love to read your explanation of what you consider to be 'ridiculous pc methods' and then suggest and justify the alternatives.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Have to agree a lot with what LurcherGreyhoundGirl says, the haters only show bits of clips that look awful (and yes they do) but you can't get the full story buy just showing the negatives of a programme. Victoria Stilwell has her good points but isn't my kind of trainer either tbh, although I don't believe in being too forceful I do believe you at least need some b*lls when handling certain dogs and her namby pamby approach is pretty futile. In order to feel safe and have confidence in you they need strength of character, they need to know you are strong for them and to do that you neither need to punish or pussy foot.
> 
> Someone said to me recently that I overthink where the dogs are concerned and that my past dogs were easy to train and very good dogs, just being treated like dogs. *That since joining forums, watching TV trainers and reading books the dogs I have now are the most challenging I've ever had and that too much conflicting advice was to blame. Could be right judging by how many people on forums, TV, groups etc experience problems these days.*
> Saw this pic in Dogs monthly recently and remember that you could just sit side by side with any animals at the vets, no dog reactiveness and you never even thought there would be. Mind you they weren't covered in chemicals constantly to de flea, over vaccinated, fed foods with additives, had owners following ridiculous PC methods or neutered - just the animals they were expected to be, your ordinary family pet.


I've worked on photo shoots for magazines. They are selected from reams of photos. I can search for loads on Getty now, think about how many we've seen of golden families with happy dogs off lead on beaches with no recall problems, all stock pics I am guessing. Reactive dogs have always been around, my great aunt's dog was people and dog reactive and that was in the 70's. My dad, aged 72, grew up with a dog that guarded it's space. I suspect media and showing violence methods like CM have made people scared of dogs, my dad was bitten as a kid because he went and hid in the dog's kennel but my grandparents rightly said 'silly boy' and that was the end of it.

I prefer to think of it that we've come out of the dark ages and into a new time of consideration for our dogs. Like the old fella who shoved his dog into my dog's as that's how they cured it in his day, my aunt who thinks a slap is a good way to control a dog, we're rising up against swamping dogs and making them fear us.

I do think there is too much advice but I think that's due to the CM fans, Jan Fennell cracker eaters (WTF is that all about ut attempting to hold onto their fantasies against a more considered way of working with dogs. A bit like how women got the vote. We'll get there using brains and intelligence.

The books I have read the most, Culture Clash, BAT etc are all consistent in their messages which for me, starts and ends with setting up the dog for success.


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2014)

I don&#8217;t think dogs are better or worse behaved today than they were in yesteryear. 
Dogs are more numerous now, we live in closer proximity to each other, we have the luxury of rescuing and multiple dog households for pets (as opposed to only having multiple dogs if you&#8217;re working them all), there is more reporting on dog incidents, social media and forums take one incident, re-tell over and over and the stories morph in to 14 different accounts that make it seem like multiple events, tons of reasons why it seems like dogs today are worse behaved. They&#8217;re really not.

Everyone I knew growing up with a dog had been bitten, it was a non-event, certainly didn&#8217;t make the news. My sister and I were repeatedly chased by the neighbor&#8217;s dobermans who would always get loose. When they finally bit one too many kids they were PTS if I remember right. And that was the solution - take the dog out back to be shot basically. Karen Pryor wasn&#8217;t being inflammatory when she titled her book &#8220;Don&#8217;t Shoot the Dog&#8221;. That really was the go-to solution most of the time. 

I&#8217;m not going to get in to a tit-for-tat on my training choices. I&#8217;ve heard it all, that I&#8217;m a pussy-footed, wishy-washy, cookie pusher who&#8217;s dogs walk all over me. Bring on the thinly veiled put-downs all you want. I doesn&#8217;t bother me in the least, because my dogs, and the dogs who are trained like mine are not the ones causing any problems. 
Bates came to us because his previous owners couldn&#8217;t manage his behaviors. Now he has multiple obedience and rally titles, and he&#8217;s a certified therapy dog who in addition to his therapy visits, also does presentations on dog and kid safety. He also dabbles in whatever his fickle owner thinks sounds fun at the moment, be it barn hunts or different seminars, and no matter what I do with him or where I take him, he&#8217;s nothing but a joy to be around.

Breez just spent over 2 weeks with another guardian-breed bitch living in the same house as her. Two bitches who started out hating each other, both trained with &#8220;ridiculous PC methods,&#8221; both ended up just fine with each other using those same ridiculous methods of simply listening to the dogs, respecting their emotional needs, honoring what they were saying with their body language, and building trust. No, they don&#8217;t love each other, but they learned to live together without issue - in less than 2 weeks. 

So yeah, bring it on. Tell me how I&#8217;m a wussy trainer or that this sort of thing only works with &#8220;soft&#8221; easy going dogs. I know enough dogs of a huge variety of breeds and temperaments, trained like mine, to know the truth, and the truth is, properly applied, rewards-based training works just as well if not better than all the cranking and yanking and intimidating and posturing you want to do.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

princeno5 said:


> wow,is this still going.blimey.malmum is right,im50,when we had family dogs,they went everywhere with us,we expected them to behave,we didn't actively "train".they all wore check collars,were fed leftovers,not wormed ,flead all the time.most weren't doctored.maybe theres too much pressure for "perfect"social dogs.in my mind we do over train,try to instill behaviours into them,have to add we didn't exhaust them with hours of exercise,if we had time they got walked,if not they had a lazy day in the house/garden.


You are right. You have described the dogs we had growing up and they all lived to a ripe old age on human food (mum used to cook an extra meal for the dog). I definitely think it is overthinking, finding methods of training instead of simply feeling your way along like you do with children.



rona said:


> LurcherGreyoundGirl said:
> 
> 
> > I have also taken a couple of screen captures of Shadow licking his lips and his tongue certainly did NOT turn blue. The video quality isn't great, but it's good enough to see that his tongue was pink.
> ...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Strange how those who accuse other of being mamby pamby seem to have regular issues with their dogs, also surprised that someone who got so upset that we don't respect dogs enough, and humans are big evil people who think we are above everything would even defend the likes of CM, dogs that kill or maul shouldn't be put down but CM swinging a dog round by it's lead edited or not is okay!!!!!!!! Enough said really!


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2014)

Meezey said:


> *Strange how those who accuse other of being mamby pamby seem to have regular issues with their dogs*, also surprised that someone who got so upset that we don't respect dogs enough, and humans are big evil people who think we are above everything would even defend the likes of CM, dogs that kill or maul shouldn't be put down but CM swinging a dog round by it's lead edited or not is okay!!!!!!!! Enough said really!


The bolded happens in "real life" as much as online.

If I had a penny for every time I heard some version of "if I had a pocket-full of treats my dog would behave too" said by someone who's dog is totally out of control while my behaved dog looks on bemusedly. And half the time I don't even have treats on me. If I did, I'd had them to the "expert" to help 'em out 

Edit:
None of the above is meant to minimize the very real issues some owners are dealing with.
I have all the compassion in the world for those dealing with difficult dogs.

What I don't have any patience for is when people demean my training choices when what they have to offer is clearly not offering better results.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> The bolded happens in real life as much as online.
> 
> If I had a penny for every time I heard some version of if I had a pocket-full of treats my dog would behave too said by someone whos dog is totally out of control while my behaved dog looks on bemusedly. And half the time I dont even have treats on me. If I did, Id had them to the expert to help em out


I don't need treats; all I have to do is stick my hand in my pocket and they come running, just in case! I wanted to get my two out of the car on the heath once and there was a man having a lot of trouble persuading his spaniel to get in the car. He kept trying to grab him and the spaniel kept running off. I didn't want to get mine out while he was still loose in case they scared him into taking off so I called the spaniel over with a biscuit, gave it to him, let him go again then repeat and this time I kept hold of him.

The man was grateful but he remarked: he doesn't deserve it. I told him he got the treat for coming to me but that is the main problem with people like you describe; they really don't know how to use the treats.

I used to have trouble getting Ferdie's lead on, but now he always stands still for me, just in case there's a gravy bone to be had.


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

In any discussion such as this; there are always those who favour and those who abhor.

Ultimately, if CM changed to positive training methods I wouldn't speak badly of his methods. As it happens, that's not the case, and as a result, I'll happily comment saying how bad he is.

I don't like VS either (becuase the training she does is not _her_ methods but those of someone directing her work), but at least she's demonstrating positive methods.

As for this "Namby Pamby" mentioned, it's clear that those that think it's "PC", or "wishy washy" have quite evidently not seen how fast it can turn around a scared, badly socialised rescue dog.

It's usually those that are too afraid of change that refuse to listen to modern scientific methods quoting such as:

"It's always worked in the past"
"If it ain't broken..."
"Never did them any harm..."
"My <insert family/friend pet's name/association> always responded to it"

Maybe they did. Maybe it worked. Maybe you were lucky. Or maybe you're simply stuck in the past too scared to learn something new. Whichever the case, positive training has been *Scientifically Proven* to be more effective and produce more balanced pets.

Can you not understand that?

Or are you still for sending those with mental health issues to Lunatic Asylums? Or sending those with disabilities into Exile? Remember; it was science that proved we were wrong in these instances.

Science, particularly psychology, has since proved that Positive Training far outstrips any other method in terms of speed of adoption and success rates.

Don't believe me?

Read Here. The people performing these studies have probably forgotten more about animal psychology than we have ever known (Note the CM commentary).


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## Tarnus (Apr 5, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't need treats; all I have to do is stick my hand in my pocket and they come running, just in case!


Yup, same with Izzy! It's good, but also a pain when she's bombing around the park, having a great time but as soon as I put my hands in my pocket because it's cold, a little black nose appears next to me, poking at my pocket expecting a treat! And if I don't give her one, she just trots alongside me, glaring at me until I do!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

It's odd how many people say 'oh I don't give my dog treats when I recall them as I don't want to bribe them'. Frankly I couldn't care less if my dog thought she was being bribed,the fact that she has come back is enough for me. As it happens she thinks I'm nice, she would prefer to be with me and the fact I also hand out food is an added bonus and an even better reason to come back. She's young and she's still learning, but she won't stay with another dog if I walk away and that's not because I'm just a treat machine.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I was mamby pamby with my Army dogs, never had problems, I can assure you using CM's tactics or having *balls* guessing at what that means baring in mind I worked with dogs normally gifted by rescue or people as they had bitten, you'd of landed yourself in hospital! Force will always be met with resistance, while people might think CM's tactics might work for them many many many much less forceful and confrontational ways to deal with dogs no matter what their issues, that would solve the issues rather than just mask them, and not put you in to a confrontational position with your dog, why would you not chose the path of least resistance!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Tarnus said:


> Yup, same with Izzy! It's good, but also a pain when she's bombing around the park, having a great time but as soon as I put my hands in my pocket because it's cold, a little black nose appears next to me, poking at my pocket expecting a treat! And if I don't give her one, she just trots alongside me, glaring at me until I do!


You have just described Diva to a tee!!


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2014)

Meezey said:


> I was mamby pamby with my Army dogs, never had problems, I can assure you using CM's tactics or having *balls* guessing at what that means baring in mind I worked with dogs normally gifted by rescue or people as they had bitten, you'd of landed yourself in hospital! Force will always be met with resistance, while people might think CM's tactics might work for them many many many much less forceful and confrontational ways to deal with dogs no matter what their issues, that would solve the issues rather than just mask them, and not put you in to a confrontational position with your dog, why would you not chose the path of least resistance!


Yes its funny how he only works with certain types of dogs. I do give him credit for being able to read which type of dog will put up with his brand of training and which wont. Ive never seen him work with a fila or one of the more sharp molossers, or a CO. Heck, Ive never even seen him work with a proper working-line malinois, GSD, dobe, or rottie. He cherry picks the more pet-bred ones. There I do give him credit for being able to read dogs 

I used to say I would have liked to see him try some of his schtick with Lunar, our ex-feral dane rescue who had learned to use his brawn to protect himself. But I would never put my dog through that.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Yes its funny how he only works with certain types of dogs. I do give him credit for being able to read which type of dog will put up with his brand of training and which wont. Ive never seen him work with a fila or one of the more sharp molossers, or a CO. Heck, Ive never even seen him work with a proper working-line malinois, GSD, dobe, or rottie. He cherry picks the more pet-bred ones. There I do give him credit for being able to read dogs
> 
> I used to say I would have liked to see him try some of his schtick with Lunar, our ex-feral dane rescue who had learned to use his brawn to protect himself. But I would never put my dog through that.


That's what bullies do though isn't it, pick a victim who won't fight back, think that's what saddens me the most is people still think using force on dogs is acceptable and they do it because dogs are so forgiving! I also would love to see these bully boys and girls get a taste of their own medicine! Don't worry that wasn't a bite they just nudged you with their teeth, oh what they are swinging you round by your neck, you'll be grand they will loosen their grip up, what spinal damage you say? Sure with all the yanking, hitting, kicking you do you'll have built up muscles to protect it! Cruel you say? Don't worry you'll be a better person after the dog has finished with you! Won't be so quick try bullying a dog when the worm turns!


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Yes its funny how he only works with certain types of dogs. I do give him credit for being able to read which type of dog will put up with his brand of training and which wont. Ive never seen him work with a fila or one of the more sharp molossers, or a CO. Heck, Ive never even seen him work with a proper working-line malinois, GSD, dobe, or rottie. He cherry picks the more pet-bred ones. There I do give him credit for being able to read dogs
> 
> I used to say I would have liked to see him try some of his schtick with Lunar, our ex-feral dane rescue who had learned to use his brawn to protect himself. But I would never put my dog through that.


Exactly! I have thought exactly the same thing many times. I would like to see him try his methods with Chansa. That would teach him that there are dogs that wont take his crap (but then again, I think he already knows, that's why there are so few high energy dogs with drives on his show).

However, I've once saw him work with two working line GSD (at least they look and behave like working line dogs) and it was very obvious that he has no idea of how to work with dogs like that. They both show aggression towards him and he's obviously scared. The bitch was the root of the problem, but he chooses not to work with her (he says that he's already succeeded with her, but you can see that she's not focusing on the shadows anymore because she's too busy focusing on the threatening stranger Cesar Millan instead and he knows that he can't handle her). And it's not very impressive that it takes him 6 minutes and 57 seconds to put a lead on the male either.

I managed to find the episode:
[youtube_browser]watch?v=tN5xAQ3qRSY[/youtube_browser]

(and a highlight of the episode is when he says that the dog should be submissive to the shadow  )


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## Canarie (Sep 4, 2013)

Kirstyrebe said:


> This man is a genius, just lately been watching his programmes due to having Ronnie, would love to have a trainer like him around here!


I will agree with you.I think he is a genius.He has turned so many dogs lives around.Have watched so many of his programmes.As for kicking the dog,it is a "tap" to de focus the dog.
My friend saw his show at Wembly and said it was brilliant..
Gill


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I can never understand why people are 100% against Cesar. IF, all of those that don't like him and would like to change people views of him, do you honestly believe that bringing stupid things like his teeth into the debate will help? It's so silly, it's enough to put anyone off of taking your opinion serious.
> *


Frankly, I couldnt give a to$$ if I put anyone off taking my opinion seriously! If I wanted that, do you really think I'd be here spouting off?! I'd have become something serious, like a mortician or a doctor. Jeez, come on, this is surely not a serious debate? :001_tt2:

His teeth are fab, the way he grits them to talk is typically Mexican, his accent is cute, his command of English for a poor lad from across the border is fab.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> His no touch-no talk-no eye contact is brilliant when it comes to more fearful dogs


So why did he not use this method with that crated spitz type? You know, the one that was barking at him, backing away as far as it could in the crate, ears back, etc? Why did he actually loom over the crate getting right in the dogs face whilst staring at it? And then declare that "its shaking because its learning? Not much trust being built there!



> His methods are NOT all dominance based


Really? Then why is jumping up = dominance? Pulling on the lead = dominance? Showing interest in a prey species = dominance? 
Why do women appararently make rubbish rottie owners because they're too soft?



> People will criticise him for using those things, but will then go and put a halti on a dog and those are just as harmful


A halti is only harmful if used incorrectly. It is also designed to act as leverage, a mechanical aid to controlling a dog. The shock collar is deliberately designed as a punisher - to cause pain. It always hurts, wether used correctly or not.



> When Cesar started to 'battle' with Shadow, it was because he became focussed on a dog that he reacted badly to before (the people who upload 'that' clip like to leave that fact out).


Oh I have no need to "leave that bit out". CM took out a dog known to have this problem, and deliberately put it in a position where he KNEW it would react so that he could punish it. Even if his punishment had been only mild - say a water squirt - I would still object on the grounds of bad training. There is no need to set a dog up to fail in order to punish it.



> Now is this a woman who should be recommended or frowned upon? Both her conduct and attitude are much worse than anything Cesar has done.


I don't personally rate VS as a top trainer - but this statement is laughable.

I've yet to see VS cause a dog to shake with fear, pi$$ itself, bite her or redirect aggression onto its owner. I've yet to see VS resort to choe, prong or shock collars (even in the height of her own dominance days). I've yet to see VS telling people they are crap owners because they are the wrong gender. I've yet to see anyone attempt to sue VS for animal cruelty, or any country ban her or her methods.



> I firmly believe that e-collars should only be used as a last resort and used by somebody who knows exactly what they are doing


Do some research and you'll find that actually this is nonsense. There is now plenty of evidence that shgock collars can cause harm (physical and emotional), that they are no more effective than other (reward based) methods, and that the fallout from using them (inc fear etc) can last even years after the collar has been used.

And do you think CM uses them only as a last resort, and knows what he is doing? Then why do so many of the dogs in his "pack" get put in them? Inc boarders? Why if he is so talented did he get a woman bitten by her GSD after he zapped it?



> I do believe you at least need some b*lls when handling certain dogs and her namby pamby approach is pretty futile


Sorry if I'm taking misunderstanding this but....

Really, then why is the same not true for every other species humans train? Marine mammals, apes and primates, exotics like wolves and big cats, domestic cats, chickens, fish, parrots, rabbits.... why do only certain breeds of domestic dog behave in a way totally at odds with every other species with a CNS?

As for namby pamby training - what does this even mean? Humane, force free methods that use primarily positive reinforcement?
If so, all the evidence is that those methods are better. There are scientific studies showing that positive punishment (particularly physical punishment) is no more effective (even less effective) and is more likely to cause aggression.

Then you have all the "crossover" trainers who moved to these namby pamby methods and never looked back because not only were the dogs much hapier but because they were so much more effective.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Canarie said:


> I will agree with you.I think he is a genius.He has turned so many dogs lives around.Have watched so many of his programmes.As for kicking the dog,it is a "tap" to de focus the dog.
> My friend saw his show at Wembly and said it was brilliant..
> Gill


I will agree that he has ruined so many dogs' lives yes, if that is what you mean. The only evidence that he has saved dogs or turned them around is his own big mouth. One should not need to tap a dog with one's foot; once feet are used it becomes a kick. As to your friend seeing his show and thinking it was brilliant - that is obviously proof positive that we are all wrong and you are right.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Colette said:


> So why did he not use this method with that crated spitz type? You know, the one that was barking at him, backing away as far as it could in the crate, ears back, etc? Why did he actually loom over the crate getting right in the dogs face whilst staring at it? And then declare that "its shaking because its learning? Not much trust being built there!
> 
> Really? Then why is jumping up = dominance? Pulling on the lead = dominance? Showing interest in a prey species = dominance?
> Why do women appararently make rubbish rottie owners because they're too soft?
> ...


Except VS has dogs killed when her methods don't work, she loses her rag with people very easily, she is arrogant to nth degree, a person DID get bitten on her show when she failed to read the dog's body language, you never see her working with her own dogs, she offered false hope during the Lennox saga (whereas Cesar voiced his disproval and stood back) and it's very suspicious how every finger points to her having been sued by a channel that employed her. I wouldn't want her anywhere near my dogs.

Like I said before, not all e-collars shock. A lot of them will only vibrate and that will not hurt a dog. How are you to know that the ones you see on Cesar's dogs aren't those kind?

And for the record I am not in 100% approval of Cesar's methods. Yes he will strike a dog with a bit too much force at times, but you can see that his 'touches' are exactly that and nothing more.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I watched a tiny bit of it and wanted to kill the frigging scum bag

But yes I would agree that there is a world of difference


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Except VS has dogs killed when her methods don't work, she loses her rag with people very easily, she is arrogant to nth degree, a person DID get bitten on her show when she failed to read the dog's body language, you never see her working with her own dogs, she offered false hope during the Lennox saga (whereas Cesar voiced his disproval and stood back) and it's very suspicious how every finger points to her having been sued by a channel that employed her. I wouldn't want her anywhere near my dogs.
> 
> Like I said before, not all e-collars shock. A lot of them will only vibrate and that will not hurt a dog. How are you to know that the ones you see on Cesar's dogs aren't those kind?
> 
> And for the record I am not in 100% approval of Cesar's methods. Yes he will strike a dog with a bit too much force at times, but you can see that his 'touches' are exactly that and nothing more.


Because he admits to using e collars that shock....  It amazes me that after all your talk about dogs and their rights that you find anything that CM does is acceptable.. Talk about double standards lol


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Except VS has dogs killed when her methods don't work, she loses her rag with people very easily, she is arrogant to nth degree, a person DID get bitten on her show when she failed to read the dog's body language, you never see her working with her own dogs, she offered false hope during the Lennox saga (whereas Cesar voiced his disproval and stood back) and it's very suspicious how every finger points to her having been sued by a channel that employed her. I wouldn't want her anywhere near my dogs.
> 
> Like I said before, not all e-collars shock. A lot of them will only vibrate and that will not hurt a dog. How are you to know that the ones you see on Cesar's dogs aren't those kind?
> 
> And for the record I am not in 100% approval of Cesar's methods. Yes he will strike a dog with a bit too much force at times, but you can see that his 'touches' are exactly that and nothing more.


The only case of a dog being pts on VS show was the spaniel with rage syndrome. It was the family vet who advised euthanasia, not Victoria, and the family asked her advice afterwards. All she did was to back up the vet. As to Lennox, rather than voicing her opinion and sitting back, she offered the dog a home but the judge still would not release him. Please get your facts straight.

Shock collars and vibration collars are two different things altogether. Vibration collars are often used on deaf dogs; I am yet to see a dog yelp, jolt or bite someone when a collar vibrates. That is how I know. Beside the fact that the Dog Abuser actually tells you it is a shock collar.


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2014)

Not to get in to a shock collar discussion, but just because a collar vibrates and doesnt shock doesnt make it less aversive. 

Many dogs do not mind a very low setting on a shock collar but find a vibration setting very upsetting. 

As has already been said on this thread, its not about what we think, its about what the dog thinks. You may not think the kicks are kicks, but the dogs subsequent behavior and body language tell me all I need to know.

You may not think a vibration is that bad, but many dogs would rather a mild shock than a vibration. My own dogs often get shocked by the static electricity of taking off their fleece coats. But because of how I present it, and because those shocks are paired with things they like, theyre okay with them. 

If you watch the episode with the black GSD, the cat and the hidden shock collar, clearly CM has NO clue how to go about using the collar properly. Its not that he uses these tools, its that he got the owner bitten because he doesnt know how to use the tools effectively.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Except VS has dogs killed when her methods don't work, she loses her rag with people very easily, she is arrogant to nth degree, a person DID get bitten on her show when she failed to read the dog's body language, you never see her working with her own dogs, she offered false hope during the Lennox saga (whereas Cesar voiced his disproval and stood back) and it's very suspicious how every finger points to her having been sued by a channel that employed her. I wouldn't want her anywhere near my dogs.
> 
> Like I said before, not all e-collars shock. A lot of them will only vibrate and that will not hurt a dog. How are you to know that the ones you see on Cesar's dogs aren't those kind?
> 
> And for the record I am not in 100% approval of Cesar's methods. Yes he will strike a dog with a bit too much force at times, but you can see that his 'touches' are exactly that and nothing more.


So let me ask you this, I've just read back all your old post on another thread, and you talk so much about how arrogant man is, and how or arrogance will destroy the world and that dogs have as much rights as humans, so would you be happy to see a human being swung round by their neck? Or with something round their next strangling them ( as long as it was loosened every now and then) and kicked and hit to get them to comply? Would you think it was fair to take a child or human in to a situation you know they didn't cope well with an use fear to make them deal with it, would you like to watch a human wet themselves and shake with fear when they saw someone? Would it be okay for a human to kill another human in the sake of training? You are the one who got so upset that people didn't treat animals/dogs as equals and their arrogance towards them because we consider ourselves to be "better", yet you are happy to watch an animal who you believe as the same rights and feelings as a human to suffer like this?

Tap kick what ever you want to call it, the dogs reaction says it all.... It's not a tap or a nudge to them.... Where's your compassion for your fellow animals gone now?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Yet there are many incidences of CM "touching" dogs with his feet hard enough for the dog's body to move - bit more force than just a touch don't you think!!

As for VS not working with her own dogs I have no idea, I'm not a big VS fan and don't know everything about her... 

I find it quite telling that CM is not even capable of training HIS own puppy in the basics. Frankly I'm not sure how someone who can't even teach a pup to sit can be considered some sort of canine guru!? ut:

As for striking dogs with too much force - I'm sorry but I find the action of "striking" dogs to be offensive regardless. I'm not talking about a genuine touch, no harder than you would pet a dog in greeting or play - but actually striking it.

We're not just talking about little taps here though are we - we are talking about:

Yanking on a dog's throat
Using painful aversive constricting collars like chokes and prongs
Suspending dogs off the ground cutting off air suply for some time
Kicking (and yes it IS kicking)
Electric shocks (which he himself admits to using)
Flooding (putting animals in extremely stressful and terrifying siutuations)
Scruffing and dangling dogs in mid air
Wrestling dogs to the ground and pinning them there by the throat
Forcing dogs into dangerous (even illegal) situations such as fights, stairs and slippery floors
Deliberately setting dogs upto fail in order to punish them
Intimidating through forcing himself into dogs' space, staring, etc
And plenty of brute force and ignorance

And the results? Dogs that run away, hide, cower, shake, yelp, and bite.

I know you say you don't condone all his methods - but take away the posturing, the abuse, and the dominance bs and frankly there's nothing much left!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Meezey said:


> So let me ask you this, I've just read back all your old post on another thread, and you talk so much about how arrogant man is, and how or arrogance will destroy the world and that dogs have as much rights as humans, so would you be happy to see a human being swung round by their neck? Or with something round their next strangling them ( as long as it was loosened every now and then) and kicked and hit to get them to comply? Would you think it was fair to take a child or human in to a situation you know they didn't cope well with an use fear to make them deal with it, would you like to watch a human wet themselves and shake with fear when they saw someone? Would it be okay for a human to kill another human in the sake of training? You are the one who got so upset that people didn't treat animals/dogs as equals and their arrogance towards them because we consider ourselves to be "better", yet you are happy to watch an animal who you believe as the same rights and feelings as a human to suffer like this?
> 
> Tap kick what ever you want to call it, the dogs reaction says it all.... It's not a tap or a nudge to them.... Where's your compassion for your fellow animals gone now?


There is one human I would be happy to see all that done with



Colette said:


> Yet there are many incidences of CM "touching" dogs with his feet hard enough for the dog's body to move - bit more force than just a touch don't you think!!
> 
> *As for VS not working with her own dogs I have no idea*, I'm not a big VS fan and don't know everything about her...
> 
> ...


Victoria Stilwell has never had a dog until recently when she moved to the US. That is because she was travelling and working all the time and it would not have been fair, but of CM doesn't care who he dumps his dogs on to while he is making millions out of the gullible all over the world.


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

Not seen this thread as I am using forums less often for new years resolution but I hate him! I think he is very cruel and his methods are not very ethical. Have you seen when he dragged the dog up the stairs continuously to 'cure' its fear of stairs! 

My sister uses his methods but not all of them, she does hold her dog down/sit on him to assert dominance/calm him down though, I have told her I disagree with it but she wouldn't listen. However it doesn't work as he is an adult and still jumps up and needs to be 'dominated' on a regular basis


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

I just think he is a disgusting human being and shouldn't be allowed near any living animal again. He has no idea about dog body language.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Victoria Stilwell has never had a dog until recently when she moved to the US. That is because she was travelling and working all the time and it would not have been fair


She has also educated herself, including studying with Jean Donaldson and a few other highly regarded dog trainers.

Victoria Stilwell Positively*|* About Victoria

_"After moving to the U.S. with her husband, Stilwell co-founded several successful dog training companies up and down the East Coast, quickly establishing herself as one of New York's most sought after dog trainers. With a particular fondness for rescue animals in need of behavior rehabilitation, Stilwell devoted much of her time and energy to a number of animal rescue organizations in New York and Atlanta, serving as a behavior advisor and giving regular seminars on the subject of dog rescue, training and rehabilitation while becoming one of the leading voices in the field of dog training and behavior. In 2005, she began filming It's Me or the Dog, which has now aired 110 episodes over 8 seasons.

Stilwell is a passionate advocate for positive reinforcement training methods that enhance a dog's ability to learn while increasing confidence, resulting in a healthy, well-adjusted pet. She is a vocal opponent of punitive, dominance-based training techniques which often result in 'quick fixes' but ultimately cause more long-term harm than good while damaging the owner-dog relationship."_​
Victoria Stilwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_"After many years without a pet dog of her own (due to work commitments), Stilwell adopted a rescued chocolate Labrador named Sadie. In early 2011, Stilwell fostered a Chihuahua/Miniature Pinscher mix named Jasmine and decided to adopt her in Late February/Early March 2011. Prior to that, she had spent her time since 2000 fostering dogs due to be euthanised by local municipal shelters. Stilwell and her husband then gave the dogs a home while rehabilitating them and eventually finding suitable homes for the animals. She has explained that, until recently, owning a dog would have been irresponsible and not fair to the dog, considering how much the whole family travels. The couple has re-homed over 50 dogs and cats."_​


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

I love the its me or the dog usa series and have victoria stilwell books, I really want to go to one of her seminars she is so much better than cesar milan as tv trainers go


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Except VS has dogs killed when her methods don't work, she loses her rag with people very easily, she is arrogant to nth degree, a person DID get bitten on her show when she failed to read the dog's body language, you never see her working with her own dogs, she offered false hope during the Lennox saga (whereas Cesar voiced his disproval and stood back) and it's very suspicious how every finger points to her having been sued by a channel that employed her. I wouldn't want her anywhere near my dogs.
> 
> Like I said before, not all e-collars shock. A lot of them will only vibrate and that will not hurt a dog. How are you to know that the ones you see on Cesar's dogs aren't those kind?
> 
> And for the record I am not in 100% approval of Cesar's methods. Yes he will strike a dog with a bit too much force at times, but you can see that his 'touches' are exactly that and nothing more.


I've removed that link. We're all capable of understanding what "a kick" means. Some of us have been witnesses to owners doing this kind of behaviour to their own dogs, I did not stand by idly and say nothing .... on both occasions.

I've seen the video of CM lashing out, if he even tried to do that to my chap, he'd be ripped apart, verbally of course, I'm not a violent person


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2014)

westie~ma said:


> I've removed that link. We're all capable of understanding what "a kick" means. Some of us have been witnesses to owners doing this kind of behaviour to their own dogs, I did not stand by idly and say nothing .... on both occasions.
> 
> I've seen the video of CM lashing out, if he even tried to do that to my chap, he'd be ripped apart, verbally of course, I'm not a violent person


Thank you. I didnt click the link, knowing I didnt need to see it, but I appreciate you mods staying on top of things like that.

And yes, we all know what a kick is. Whether some choose not to see it because of cognitive dissonance, is an entirely different story. But a kick is a kick, and just because *this* kick was harder than *that* kick doesnt make the less forceful kick okay. That logic has never made sense to me.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> And for the record I am not in 100% approval of Cesar's methods. Yes he will strike a dog with a bit too much force at times, but you can see that his 'touches' are exactly that and nothing more.


If I touch a dog it does not generally evoke the response CMs "touches" do. What is he doing off camera to make it so the "touch" he gives elicits the reaction it does? I often touch my dog on the shoulder or rump to get his attention when he's distracted by something. No need for me to jab him with a toe or stiffened fingers, a gentle touch or ruffling the hair works without making him cower or respond with aggression.


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## Kirstyrebe (Jan 20, 2014)

Pawscrossed said:


> My apologies, it makes my blood boil a little. I have found PF to be a very easy site to use apart from loading up images!
> 
> Apologies OP, I am glad that you are finding feedback useful.


It's definitely interesting reading  but it's also good to hear both too and for as for me I am sat on the fence, some things I agree to and others are a definite no no for me


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## Frenchwood (Jan 16, 2014)

Kirstyrebe said:


> It's definitely interesting reading  but it's also good to hear both too and for as for me I am sat on the fence, some things I agree to and others are a definite no no for me


A little insight goes a long way! 

Whichever camp to decide to sit it; be it CM, VS, or any other for that matter, the only thing I'd advise is this:

Learn to read your dog's body language. Everything else will fall into place.

As soon as you do this, you'll clearly see the training methods which elicit poor/bad/aggressive/fearful responses. Stay well away from those, and you'll soon end up in the positive training camp anyway!


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