# My dog bit my son :(



## natandandy (Aug 13, 2013)

Hi all I need your help and advice.

Earlier this evening I took my two dogs out with my fiancé and my son; he is 9. My two dogs are Buddy (4, GSD cross) and Teddy (3, Pomeranian cross). I have had both since they were pups and in fact got Buddy at only 5 weeks old as his mum rejected the litter. 

We let Buddy off the lead as normal as he pulls and pulls until he has run off his excess energy; we usually take a ball or find a stick to throw for him. My fiancé and son went running off with Buddy while me and Teddy followed behind.

I then to my horror heard my son screaming 'he bit me he bit me'. As I got closer I could see my fiancé had pulled Buddy to one side and got his lead on so I tended to my son. He already had a big bruise forming but the skin had not been broken at the top of his thigh. He was crying and said it really hurt, I hugged him and calmed him enough to carry on with our walk. However after a little way my son requested we go home as his leg hurt. 

This is something Buddy has never done before, ever. It is completely out of character for him and my fiancé is adamant Spencer did nothing to provoke Buddy into biting him. I am devastated, not only because I feel like I have let my son down but also because I now fear this is the beginning of aggression from my beloved dog. 

Earlier this month he also snarled and showed his teeth to the vet but I thought nothing much of it as he hates the vets and is so scared that he often wees all over the floor and hides under my chair. I thought perhaps the showing of the teeth was just another part of the fear.

There have recently been occasions when he has snapped at my fiancé also when trying to get him to wait in the boot of the car until we have the lid open otherwise as soon as you touch the handle he is out which can be so dangerous if you're near a road etc. 

There was also an incident a few months ago where my friend was over with her 2 year old and he had one of Buddy's toy balls. Buddy lunged at him and caught his head with his teeth, drawing blood. At the time I was horrified but also understood that was my fault for allowing the child to have access to the ball as we know how obsessive Buddy can be around a ball. My friend was luckily understanding and agreed that we as adults were to blame not the dog. However it never fully sat right with me or my fiancé but was quickly forgotten until today. 

Maybe I am now looking at incidents wondering if the signs have been there for a while and I've not noticed, maybe I'm reading into things too much. Has anyone ever had a similar experience where a dog has bitten for no particular reason? If he was a collie breed then I would put it down to herding and I know GSDs are herding/working dogs but he has not shown other behaviours like this before.

I don't know I'm so confused and upset. I can't bear the thought of rehoming him as I don't want him to hurt anyone else or be someone else's problem and equally I cannot even consider having him put down. He is a healthy young dog with so much potential it doesn't seem right. I am thinking maybe I could ask around to find someone with no children who could work him or something but like I said I don't want him to become someone else's problem. I have contacted a couple of animal behaviourists so I guess I will have to wait and see what they say and in the meantime watch him like a hawk.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I am very confused by your post.

You have stated that biting your son was completely out of character yet you have given several examples which demonstrate this is not the case.

I have no idea why you think anyone would want to "work" him? Work him in what exactly? I would suggest you go to your vet and ask for a referral to a reputable behaviourist.

Dogs ALWAYS bite for a reason, even if it is not immediately apparent to you.


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## natandandy (Aug 13, 2013)

Sorry you are confused I meant that this incident is completely out of character for him however over the last couple of months we have noticed some odd behaviours. This is the first time he has ever bitten. I'm not sure you read my post fully.

I don't know about working him, he is probably too old now to retrain for police work, scent work etc. He is very quick to learn and have always thought he would be good as a working dog.

Like I said I have been in touch with a couple of behaviourists and am waiting to hear back from them.

And you may say dogs ALWAYS bite for a reason but I honestly cannot see a reason for my dog to bite my son today. They were relaxed and both happy out on a walk together as same as any other time.

Really you didn't give me any advice or say anything useful


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Has he had a thorough vet check? If not that should be the place to start if this behaviour is out of character for him. Not just a quick check of ears, teeth etc but blood work. After that a referral to a reputable behaviourist would be my advice. Simply not worth the risk of advising online with something like this.

What was going on when the bite happened? It may seem like your son did nothing to provoke the dog to bite but all too often innocent behaviours can trigger dogs to behave in certain ways. Not trying to excuse the bite but if you can identify what was happening at the time it would likely help a behaviourist help you.

The car issue sounds like a combination of frustration and lack of self control to me. Seems a fairly common issue for dogs to snap when thwarted in getting what they want. There are certainly ways of building up a dogs impulse control and teaching them to control themselves when excited rather than having to be controlled.

The vets...well typical fear really. Any dog pushed far enough will bite. If you're worried about him biting at the vets then introduce a muzzle and use it in that situation  Better for him to be used to one and comfortable wearing it than to have one forced upon him in a situation where he's already uncomfortable. And if a vet feels it necessary they will insist on one. If you search Youtube for Chirag Patel muzzle there's an excellent video on how to introduce a muzzle


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## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

Sorry to hear about the bite. Are you able to describe what exactly was happening just prior to the bite? For example, was your son running at the time, did your son have a ball or stick perhaps? Did the dog seem very aroused / excited because he was just let off lead and anticipating a game with the ball? 

Regarding the bite itself, it sounds like a single bite and immediate release? Is that correct or did your fiance have to actively get the dog off of your son?

Have you done much general training with Budde? The lead pulling and lack of a trained wait in the car seem to indicate perhaps this an area where some work is required. Many active working breeds do find training mentally stimulating, and can help to focus some of their natural energy into acceptable activities, as well as make the dog generally easier to manage.

I absolutely think contacting a good behaviourist is the way to progress. They may well be able to help you to identify a number of stressors which tend to increase the risk of aggression, and figure out how to reduce those stressors. In addition, some better management is going to need to be discussed. Many behaviourists will insist on a full vet work up prior to an aggression consult, to rule out medical conditions which may be contributing, particularly where there appears to be a recent change in behaviour.

Good luck, and would be interested to hear how you get on.


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## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> If you're worried about him biting at the vets then introduce a muzzle and use it in that situation  Better for him to be used to one and comfortable wearing it than to have one forced upon him in a situation where he's already uncomfortable. And if a vet feels it necessary they will insist on one. If you search Youtube for Chirag Patel muzzle there's an excellent video on how to introduce a muzzle


I absolutely agree with this point. Please do take the time to thoroughly desensitise your dog to wearing a muzzle, and then muzzle him PRIOR to your arrival at the vets. Don't wait for the vet to be the one to have to muzzle an unprepared dog because that will only add to your dog's fear.

You can also separately work on desensitising the dog to going to the vets. Most practices will allow you to bring your dog in for a social visit when he doesn't need treatment. I always make a point of taking my foster dogs into the vets regularly, standing them on the scales, having the vet nurse feed them some treats etc.


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## natandandy (Aug 13, 2013)

He has been generally checked recently by the vet as he had to have a kennel cough vaccine due to us going away in a couple of weeks; our regular kennels is full and they don't insist on them having it like this other one we are using this time does. Could it be worth ringing the vet also and discussing with them then?

My son and fiancé were both running side by side with the dog. The dog was on my sons left side and fiancé on his right. We hadn't brought a ball with us this time and my son did not have a stick or anything else in his hands. Buddy didn't seem overly excited or aroused by the running etc as it is normal for him to trot off with my son, they both have boundless energy.

The bite was a single bite and release; I think when my son screamed it probably scared Buddy and he certainly seemed to know something was wrong with what he had done.

I have done a fair bit of training with Buddy. He knows all basic commands, sit, wait, down, bed etc but we have always always since day one struggled with walking on the lead. Off the lead he is brilliant with good recall but on the lead he is a nightmare and he gets so excited going in the car that when you try to make him wait when you stop it is impossible, it's like he stops listening.

I think that I will call the vet in the morning and get him booked in; I can ask them about a behaviourist but I have found a local qualified one who is going to call me next week so hopefully I can have Buddy checked by the vet in that time and ask if they know of the behaviourist or for suggestions.


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## natandandy (Aug 13, 2013)

I was never overly worried about him biting at the vets as he had never shown aggression before, only fear; which I know can lead to aggression so I've probably been very naive thinking it won't happen to my dog. Obviously the more recent visit to the vet concerned me and now the incident today, I will definitely look into muzzling him and getting him more used to the vets


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## natandandy (Aug 13, 2013)

Not sure why but my other reply didn't post.

My son and fiancé were running side by side with Buddy on my sons left. He didn't have a ball, stick or anything in his hand that Buddy may have been trying to get. Buddy and my son normally run together when we take them out, they both have boundless energy.

I have done a fair bit of training with Buddy; all the general sit, down, wait, bed etc. I'm not sure why but he has never responded to any attempt to walk nicely on the lead, he has always pulled from day one. And in the car he gets more excited which leads to him just not listening to instructions when we stop to let him out. 

I will call the vets in the morning and ask them to check him over, do bloods etc and ask if they have heard of or recommend the behaviourists I have contacted.


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## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

natandandy said:


> I was never overly worried about him biting at the vets as he had never shown aggression before, only fear; which I know can lead to aggression so I've probably been very naive thinking it won't happen to my dog. Obviously the more recent visit to the vet concerned me and now the incident today, I will definitely look into muzzling him and getting him more used to the vets


I think most of us humans have a huge aversion to seeing a dog wearing a muzzle. In fact, this is our hang up, not the dogs. I think would actually be good practice if all of us desensitised our dogs to wearing a muzzle, even usually tolerant dogs present a risk when they are in pain and may still need to be examined. Desensitise the dog correctly, and they will not worry about wearing a muzzle for short periods of time. If your dog is already fearful at the vets, without the added risk of a painful injury or condition, then I think this is an essential precaution.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Its probably already been said but have a full thyroid blood panel run on him as hypothyroidism often shows with a behavioural change and not always the classic clinical symptoms of dry coat, gunky eyes, flaky skin and weight gain. Aggression is also a clinical symptom and can be the only one showing in the early stages. 
http://ptpetsupply.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/lothyroid.doc

Once the bloods have been done you should see a behaviourist for a professional assessment because its not fair to have him assessed before you rule out a medical condition, no amount of 'training' will help if he is medically unsound.

Good luck and best wishes to your son who must feel very upset that his friend bit him.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

natandandy said:


> Sorry you are confused I meant that this incident is completely out of character for him however over the last couple of months we have noticed some odd behaviours. This is the first time he has ever bitten. I'm not sure you read my post fully.
> 
> I don't know about working him, he is probably too old now to retrain for police work, scent work etc. He is very quick to learn and have always thought he would be good as a working dog.
> 
> ...


I agree, recommending that you take your dog to a vet for a referral is not advice nor is it useful, please feel free to ignore and wait for a post which fits your particular criteria.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Hi, sorry you find yourself in this position.

I am wary when I take my dogs to the vets and I have 1 cat that I tell them to be very careful with and I used to have a dog years ago that I would muzzle if we went to the vet but the dogs are and were all fine anywhere else.

I have a little dachshund who is very possessive with toys and has been known to nip in play when people have tried to take a ball from her or if another dog has taken a ball its been an all out fight.

You say your fiance and son were with the dog when it bit....was the dog in between the 2 of them and maybe possessive of your fiance?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

natandandy said:


> Sorry you are confused I meant that this incident is completely out of character for him however over the last couple of months we have noticed some odd behaviours. This is the first time he has ever bitten. I'm not sure you read my post fully.
> 
> I don't know about working him, he is probably too old now to retrain for police work, scent work etc. He is very quick to learn and have always thought he would be good as a working dog.
> 
> ...


Dogs do always bite for a reason & give off signals they are not happy, these may be so subtle that we fail to notice them.

What exactly happened when your son was bitten? Your post doesn't really say.

You also indicate that your dog is interested in his ball, was your son holding the ball & could have been nipped whilst your dog was trying to get to the ball?

Alot of dogs can get possessive over their toys & whilst it is always great to have toys that they adore (great motivators for training) I would always be cautious about allowing them free access to these especially is another dog is around as fights can occur

It sounds as if Buddy has poor impulse control & excitement can build up to the point he cannot control it (but I am no expert so please get professional advice regarding this!). My GSD had similar problems when we initially rehomed her. We have worked really hard on getting this under control & not allowing her to charge off, etc she has to wait patiently (build this up very gradually) & has paid off.

If your dog is in the car them practice at home, ensure that your dog physically can't just jump out by using a harness & clip. The more he is able to practise the behaviour the more he will do this. You can try games with the ball as well, he only gains access to this if he waits. There will be lots of training clips or articles that you can gain ideas from- I will try to have a look later

I am also unsure why you think at 4 yrs old he will not be able to learn new skills. My oldest dog, Toby (10yrs in Sept) started doing scentwork last year & really enjoys this. My GSD is now over 4yrs old & is learning to track & search - if you put the effort in then any dog can learn new skills 

I do think you have to gain help with this though, get a vet check & look fro a reputable trainer/behaviourist for help if you decide to work with Buddy. Am not sure you are being realistic in expecting a new home to want to take him on, there are not enough homes for dogs without problems s why would anyone want to take on a dog that has bitten? It's not guilt tripping you but being honest.


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## natandandy (Aug 13, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I agree, recommending that you take your dog to a vet for a referral is not advice nor is it useful, please feel free to ignore and wait for a post which fits your particular criteria.


Hi sorry for my 'snappy' response last night I was still very upset about the whole incident and took some of your comments personally!

I have rung the vet this morning and booked Buddy in to be seen and will ask about blood tests for him. Then we will be able to rule anything medical out for the behaviourist.

Apologies again


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## natandandy (Aug 13, 2013)

I have tried twice to reply to everyone's questions but my posts don't seem to appear.

Buddy was running next to my son on his left with my fiancé on my sons right so he was not in the middle of them both. He didn't have a stick or a ball, in fact he had nothing in his hands at all. Buddy didn't appear to be over excited etc, things all seemed like any other time we have been out walking. My son often runs on ahead with him by his side.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

A full on bite is not 'herding' and it is irrelevant that he is part GSD, a dog brought up with and around children should be able to have balls etc picked up without a child getting bitten. Again children should be able to run free without getting bitten, hope you find a medical cause that can be treated, if not you will have to alter your routines, training etc in the mean time if you have guest with children i would put him in another room, the childrens safety is paramount to that of a dog.


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

how upsetting for you and your family  , is it possible that your son accidentally trod on the dogs paw whilst they were running?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Very stressful for you but I think you are totally right to get a full vet check. As others have said, do make sure that the vet does the thyroid tests.

Meanwhile, I would advise not letting your dog be close to any child and this includes your son. You've described two incidents involving children - I do appreciate that one involved a ball but regardless, that should not have happened and you are VERY lucky that your friend was so understanding.

Apologies if I'm wrong, but just from the way you describe your boy when on lead and in the car, it does sound like he's quite excitable or even tense? I have an excitable dog myself so I empathise 

Also do make sure that the trainer you use is NOT another Cesar Milan wannabe who bangs on about 'dominance' and 'alpha' dogs. Only use someone who uses kind, positive methods 

Do let us know how you get on?


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## natandandy (Aug 13, 2013)

Hi all thanks for all your advice and kind words.

We took Buddy to the vet this afternoon and she confirmed that physically he is sound. Sadly she had to muzzle him as he was very frightened and nervous so he growled at her  still he was very good about having the muzzle on and she could do what she needed to with him. 

I asked about blood tests and she said she wasn't concerned about any issues with health as there have been no changes in appetite, amount of water he drinks, toileting etc etc. Instead she has referred me to another vet at a different practice that specialises in behaviour. I am going to call her tomorrow to get the ball rolling.

In the meantime at home we have put very strict rules in place for my son and Buddy. We have put up his crate once again for him so he has somewhere safe to go and so I have somewhere to put him so I know my son or visitors are safe. I have had a long serious chat with my son about Buddy and why we need to make changes and be stricter with him. Me and my fiancé are also going to reinforce training and speak to the vet about how best to tackle the issues surrounding the car and pulling on the lead.

Someone hear mentioned that he could be excitable or tense and I agree he is very excitable when he knows he is going out; this is probably another area we need to work on.

All in all we are feeling more positive than we did yesterday and hope that this is something that we can deal with. However I will be much more on my guard with Buddy and watch for any signs of this becoming a serious issue.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> when trying to get him to wait in the boot of the car until we have the lid open otherwise


Can you clarify what you mean by "boot", it sounds like you mean you have him/them in a closed car boor? as opposed to the back of a hatchback or an estate.
.


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## HLT93 (Aug 14, 2013)

Dogs can get very over excited sometimes, is it possible the dog jumped up and had its mouth open and the dog and child clashed ?Because he hadn't broken the skin it doesn't sound the it was intentional, sounds more like they possibly clashed together or the dog got overexcited. 

It is always useful to train a dog to wear a muzzle, even when not needed because you never know when you may need one in the future! I would acclimatise him to wearing a muzzle, this way if you are worried you can use this when out or at the vets. 

I would contact a behaviourist and get them to perform an assessment on the dog and then they an advise you further.


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## AmeyyBladesS (Aug 14, 2013)

I have a German shepherd cross puppy who's only 10 months. He has beer got out of the habit of 'mouthing' yet.

As a puppy when he bit he would break the skin! But now that his adult teeth have come through he doesn't, and sometimes in rough play he can bruise me!

Are you sure he bit your son aggressively? And that he didn't get caught up in the momment when running along side him?

If he didn't break the skin he cannot have bitten him very hard, German shepherds have the second strongest bite after rottweilers, so of he meant it, he
Would certainly have drawn blood!

German shepherds are herding dogs, I don't know what buddy is crossed with but your son running has triggered this trait in him and he has wanted to 'herd' and got
Caught up in play!

As for the catching your friends babies face when playing with a ball... Again caught up in play. He was scared of the vet and felt he had to defend himself, he is an animal after all and they don't always understand that we're trying to help! One time my dog god stuck over a fence, after trying to jump it, he was crying in pain and when I tried to free him, he bit me! Professionanls always tell you not to touch a distressed dog, I'm not an expert and I have a lot of problems with my dog, he can become aggressive with strangers coming
Into my garden but other than that he isn't aggressive, and I don't think your dog it either!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

AmeyyBladesS said:


> I have a German shepherd cross puppy who's only 10 months. He has beer got out of the habit of 'mouthing' yet.
> 
> As a puppy when he bit he would break the skin! But now that his adult teeth have come through he doesn't, and sometimes in rough play he can bruise me!
> 
> ...


As none of us witnessed the incident I don't think we can comment whether the dog is showing aggression or not. We can ask questions to try & get a better, more detailed sequence of events but even if the bite is due to over excitement or in play it is not acceptable especially when small children around.

OP - as well as having professional help this thread may be of use to you as it lists impulse control games that people use for their dogs http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/308312-your-favourite-impulse-control-exercises.html

I have been practsing alot of these sort of games as my GSD had poor control, any form of excitement could quickly tip her over & she would become aggressiv & redirect this on to other dogs which was unacceptable.

We had to manage this behaviour quite strictly & I did find that the more games we played (but also having rules for the games) we did make alot of progress. It is something we still work on to reinforce but also because the games are fun & she enjoys them


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

natandandy said:


> I then to my horror heard my son screaming 'he bit me he bit me'. As I got closer I could see my fiancé had pulled Buddy to one side and got his lead on so I tended to my son. He already had a big bruise forming but the skin had not been broken at the top of his thigh. He was crying and said it really hurt, I hugged him and calmed him enough to carry on with our walk. However after a little way my son requested we go home as his leg hurt.


You don't specifically say, but I'm assuming the bite was through clothing? Could you clarify this, and how tough the clothing material was? I mean, if this is a bruise from being bitten through denim jeans, it sounds like quite a hefty bite.


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## Strawberryearth (Apr 5, 2012)

Hi natandandy,

You have already been given some good advice and are taking excellent steps towards working on this issue, I don't have anything training wise to add but I did want to say something about excitement/arousal. 

My dog was bitten by another dog in a completely unprovoked attack. I am not sure I would even use the word attack as it was quite literally a bite and run- if she hadn't had a hole in her back neither of us would have been aware of what happened. I cannot speak on behalf of the owner of the dog that bit her, so I don't know what that dog is like normally, but she was jogging through the woods with 4-5 dogs off lead. It was them rounding a bend and all running towards us when the bite occurred. 

After talking it through with people on here, a general consensus was reached that this dog was in a high state of arousal and saw my dog as prey. Now, I'm not saying that your dog views your son as prey however I am wondering whether it was the 3 of them running together, with the dog having lots of excess energy to release, which had a hand in what happened.

Irrespective of this, your dog shouldn't have bitten your son- or anyone- but I just wanted to offer that experience by way of demonstrating that a dog has the potential to act out of character when in a high state of arousal and their prey drive is, potentially,triggered.

It sounds like you are doing all you can to fix things. I hope it goes well for you.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

AmeyyBladesS said:


> I have a German shepherd cross puppy who's only 10 months. He has beer got out of the habit of 'mouthing' yet.
> 
> As a puppy when he bit he would break the skin! But now that his adult teeth have come through he doesn't, and sometimes in rough play he can bruise me!
> 
> ...


It's pretty unsafe to diagnose issues over the internet don't you think? Especially when a child has been bitten and with the history that has already been given. To just brush them off as minor issues is dangerous. The best option is to vet check and then referral to a qualified, reputable behaviourist.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Agree with above. You can't take chances with a biting dog, even more so where children are involved. Best to look on it as intentional rather than not and get professional advice. Vets first, behaviourists assessment second. 

Good luck op and keep us posted please.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2013)

Their is a big difference in a bruise and a bite! Believe me!

I think I have to aggree that given he only bruised the skin he could well have been caught up in the excitement. If he meant to bite he would have most definately drawn blood and done far more damage then he did. The fact he didn't shows a good resistence to bitting.

I think something must have been encouraged for him to bite or else he would not have done it in the first place.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Prowl said:


> Their is a big difference in a bruise and a bite! Believe me!
> 
> I think I have to aggree that given he only bruised the skin he could well have been caught up in the excitement. If he meant to bite he would have most definately drawn blood and done far more damage then he did. The fact he didn't shows a good resistence to bitting.
> 
> I think something must have been encouraged for him to bite or else he would not have done it in the first place.


A bite is a bite - I would think that the dog just showed good bite inhibition and that clothing ensured there were no skin punctures as well. A bite doesn't have to break skin to be serious - this may be of interest too http://www.apdt.com/veterinary/assets/pdf/Ian Dunbar Dog Bite Scale.pdf

This bite also isn't an isolated incident which is also important to remember. Surely whatever the cause of a dog bite, the dog still bit and that is what needs to be addressed? Whether done "in anger", through stress, or due to poor impulse control and over excitement a bite is still a bite isn't it and the dog needs to be evaluated by a professional and the cause determined and appropriate measures implemented.

If the bitten child had been a stranger or one of the child's friends it could be a very serious matter indeed, skin broken or not.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2013)

Dogless said:


> A bite is a bite - I would think that the dog just showed good bite inhibition and that clothing ensured there were no skin punctures as well. A bite doesn't have to break skin to be serious - this may be of interest too http://www.apdt.com/veterinary/assets/pdf/Ian Dunbar Dog Bite Scale.pdf
> 
> This bite also isn't an isolated incident which is also important to remember. Surely whatever the cause of a dog bite, the dog still bit and that is what needs to be addressed? Whether done "in anger", through stress, or due to poor impulse control and over excitement a bite is still a bite isn't it and the dog needs to be evaluated by a professional and the cause determined and appropriate measures implemented.
> 
> If the bitten child had been a stranger or one of the child's friends it could be a very serious matter indeed, skin broken or not.


I will have a look at the article :>


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Their is a big difference in a bruise and a bite! Believe me!
> 
> I think I have to aggree that given he only bruised the skin he could well have been caught up in the excitement. If he meant to bite he would have most definately drawn blood and done far more damage then he did. The fact he didn't shows a good resistence to bitting.
> 
> I think something must have been encouraged for him to bite or else he would not have done it in the first place.


It is irrelevant whether it broke the skin or not it should not happen, my GSDs are not allowed to have teeth contact with human skin from 14 weeks - I start training them before this bite inhibition and again irrelevant whether the dog was excited or not it should be zero tollerence irrelevant of breed or type dogs should not bite humans unless commanded to do so.


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## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

Wildmoor said:


> It is irrelevant whether it broke the skin or not it should not happen, my GSDs are not allowed to have teeth contact with human skin from 14 weeks - I start training them before this bite inhibition and again irrelevant whether the dog was excited or not it should be zero tollerence irrelevant of breed or type dogs should not bite humans unless commanded to do so.


It is IMO highly relevant that the bite did not break skin. Of course nobody would disagree that it is very inappropriate behaviour and needs to be taken seriously (which the OP has already indicated that they are), but the very first question in any bite case should be level of damage done.

I would be pretty upset if someone slapped my cheek hard during an argument, but that is still a very different scenario to pulling a knife out and stabbing me repeatedly.

Future prognosis is also likely to be very different. The person who in the heat of argument gave a slap may need a bit of anger management but will most likely go on to lead a pretty normal life and not represent a huge danger to society. The stabber clearly represents a much greater potential risk.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Riff Raff said:


> It is IMO highly relevant that the bite did not break skin. Of course nobody would disagree that it is very inappropriate behaviour and needs to be taken seriously (which the OP has already indicated that they are), but the very first question in any bite case should be level of damage done.
> 
> I would be pretty upset if someone slapped my cheek hard during an argument, but that is still a very different scenario to pulling a knife out and stabbing me repeatedly.
> 
> Future prognosis is also likely to be very different. The person who in the heat of argument gave a slap may need a bit of anger management but will most likely go on to lead a pretty normal life and not represent a huge danger to society. The stabber clearly represents a much greater potential risk.


Hmm try telling that to the police if the dog 'accidentally' bites a stranger. The DDA is there for just such circumstances and to be taken very seriously.


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## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

Malmum said:


> Hmm try telling that to the police if the dog 'accidentally' bites a stranger. The DDA is there for just such circumstances and to be taken very seriously.


Nowhere did I suggest that any bite is accidental. Nowhere did I suggest that any bite should not be taken seriously. Obviously everybody including the OP is an agreement that any bite needs to be addressed with appropriate behaviour modification and / or management strategy.

However, it is ridiculous to lump all bites into the same category. I would personally be more than happy to work with a dog who had a low level bite history. I would not dream of working with a dog whose bite history included a multiple bite, hold, shake mauling or who had killed a person.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> *Has he had a thorough vet check? If not that should be the place to start if this behaviour is out of character for him. Not just a quick check of ears, teeth etc but blood work.* After that a referral to a reputable behaviourist would be my advice. Simply not worth the risk of advising online with something like this.
> That was my thought, too - this poor dog may have a painful but unsuspected condition, or even a brain tumour. Vet check is definately the first place to go.
> 
> What was going on when the bite happened? It may seem like your son did nothing to provoke the dog to bite but all too often innocent behaviours can trigger dogs to behave in certain ways. Not trying to excuse the bite but if you can identify what was happening at the time it would likely help a behaviourist help you.
> ...


Ditto

Absolutely agree with Sarah - VET CHECK ASAP! And in the meantime monitor this dog VERY carefully. NEVER leave him alone with your son - even if you just need a wee! Never let him have any access to other children, particularly small ones. Get a muzzle for walks, especially street walks - Buddy seems to be unpredictable, and that is the hardest thing to cope with. If you know what upsets your dog you can guard against it/avoid it, but when it comes out of the blue, you can't foresee it.

I know a muzzle may seem harsh, but how would you feel if a child reached out to touch your dog, and he bit them? Or if a child fell over in front of him and startled him, and he lunged in hell for leather?

For whatever reason, Buddy has become untrustworthy even around your family. It may be something medical that can be righted, or it may be behavioural, and hopefully can be remedied, too, but whatever the cause, you can't afford to risk your child or anyone else's - you may have to let him go - dreadful as that prospect is, you have to prepare yourself for it.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> As none of us witnessed the incident I don't think we can comment whether the dog is showing aggression or not. We can ask questions to try & get a better, more detailed sequence of events but even if the bite is due to over excitement or in play it is not acceptable especially when small children around.
> 
> OP - as well as having professional help this thread may be of use to you as it lists impulse control games that people use for their dogs *http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/308312-your-favourite-impulse-control-exercises.html*
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reference to this thread - it's something that we can all find useful.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Riff Raff said:


> Nowhere did I suggest that any bite is accidental. Nowhere did I suggest that any bite should not be taken seriously. Obviously everybody including the OP is an agreement that any bite needs to be addressed with appropriate behaviour modification and / or management strategy.
> 
> However, it is ridiculous to lump all bites into the same category. I would personally be more than happy to work with a dog who had a low level bite history. I would not dream of working with a dog whose bite history included a multiple bite, hold, shake mauling or who had killed a person.


A bite may be a bite regardless legally but in my experience with Roxy it did make a difference as to what 'sort'.

She went through a stage of snapping at people who got too close when we were out on (leashed) walks, my fault completely as I failed to recognise how stressed she was. It was very worrying as this was possibly the worst behavioural problems she could display & I was aware of the consequences of this.

Working with a behaviourist it soon became apparent that this was defensive & she would not actively pursue biting, it was more when she felt she had no other option (being leashed she couldn't 'escape')

Once I recognised this, learned to read her body language & understood her more we were able to work on her stress levels & how she coped with situations. Although we have never had another incident I will always be vigilant in this area but I no longer have this huge fear that I did at first.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Riff Raff said:


> It is IMO highly relevant that the bite did not break skin. Of course nobody would disagree that it is very inappropriate behaviour and needs to be taken seriously (which the OP has already indicated that they are), but the very first question in any bite case should be level of damage done.
> 
> I would be pretty upset if someone slapped my cheek hard during an argument, but that is still a very different scenario to pulling a knife out and stabbing me repeatedly.
> 
> Future prognosis is also likely to be very different. The person who in the heat of argument gave a slap may need a bit of anger management but will most likely go on to lead a pretty normal life and not represent a huge danger to society. The stabber clearly represents a much greater potential risk.


We will have to dissagree on this one an old GSD with none sharp teeth could crush a leg muscle if the person was wearing thick trousers and wellingtons - causing serious damage without breaking the skin

A bite is a bite whether through the judical system or not it should not happen, too many people raise their pups as mini humans rather than dogs then end up with problem dogs.
Training starts the moment the pup is brought home, the dog should have clear boundaries and limitations, without clear rules it wont know its doing wrong and with weak owners will take control.
I have 2 Herding breeds that have very high prey drives (kids & other dogs are not prey) my dogs know the difference between a jogger and a mugger, joggers can safely run past, cyclist can pass, kids can run about screaming if they wish but my dogs will not bite.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> *bold added for emphasis - *
> 
> ... *too many people raise their pups as mini-humans rather than dogs*, then end up with problem dogs.
> 
> ...


oh, MY... :eek6: *dominance!* It's a terrible thing. :nonod:

It's also a nonexistent bugbear. :lol: Pups who are brought home by disabled people aren't being pinned 
to the floor, pushed or flooded, confronted or coerced - yet they are often extremely compliant & tolerant, 
as well as highly sociable & trusting.

_"Rules, boundaries, limitiations..." _ 
U've been channeling the Dawg-Wrassler again, haven't ya?  Try the Ouija board, it's less drama 
but more broad-ranging; CM/ DW is such a one-trick pony, poor fella.
.
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Wildmoor said:


> We will have to dissagree on this one an old GSD with none sharp teeth could crush a leg muscle if the person was wearing thick trousers and wellingtons - causing serious damage without breaking the skin
> 
> A bite is a bite whether through the judical system or not it should not happen, too many people raise their pups as mini humans rather than dogs then end up with problem dogs.
> Training starts the moment the pup is brought home, the dog should have clear boundaries and limitations, without clear rules it wont know its doing wrong and with weak owners will take control.
> I have 2 Herding breeds that have very high prey drives (kids & other dogs are not prey) my dogs know the difference between a jogger and a mugger, joggers can safely run past, cyclist can pass, kids can run about screaming if they wish but my dogs will not bite.


I do agree that too many people do not set clear boundaries for their dogs which ends up confusing the dog.

I've known quite a few people who have had exuberant pups that jump up at visitors & mouth them & have been allowed to continue this behaviour with the excuse that they are only being friendly. True, they are & it's not so much of a problem when it's a small puppy but is when it's a big adult dog.

With me, it was about consistency & setting rules for Roxy which was difficult at first as I had little experience with dogs & bumbled along (still do!). She was so different from my first dog who was so easy in comparison, that it was hard work


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, MY... :eek6: *dominance!* It's a terrible thing. :nonod:
> 
> It's also a nonexistent bugbear. :lol: Pups who are brought home by disabled people aren't being pinned
> to the floor, pushed or flooded, confronted or coerced - yet they are often extremely compliant & tolerant,
> ...


You are talking a load of rubbish - you dont know how I raise my pups
When I refer to weak people I am refering to their minds/behaviour etc not that of their physical strength 
I suggest you learn to use 'Ouija board' I certainly wont dont believe in that rubbish
I dont "U've been channeling the Dawg-Wrassler again, haven't ya?" I am not uneducated although from the language you use it sounds like you are, deffinately an IQ below your age


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> When I refer to weak people I am refering to their minds/ behaviour, etc, not ...their physical strength.


_"Rules, boundaries, limitiations..."_
the host of Natl-geo channel's long-running _"The Dog Whisperer"_ used that tag-line.
It sounded remarkably similar to what U were saying - hence, the 'channeling' comment.

Dominance & seeing dogs as oppositional or deliberately contrary is among his consistent trademarks.
Unfortunately for his fans, 'dominance' & a linear hierarchy among dogs was long-ago disproven.
The rationale for his 'training' methods is over 30-years out of date.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Prowl said:


> Their is a big difference in a bruise and a bite! Believe me!
> 
> I think I have to aggree that given he only bruised the skin he could well have been caught up in the excitement. If he meant to bite he would have most definately drawn blood and done far more damage then he did. The fact he didn't shows a good resistence to bitting.
> 
> I think something must have been encouraged for him to bite or else he would not have done it in the first place.


Have to agree with you here

A bite usually results in a puncture wound, where as hard mouthing can result in a bruise.

I think there is a big difference. If a GSD bites then u go to hospital. Hard mouthing, whilst not acceptable is most definitely not a bite. If the dog wanted to bite then it would have been serious.

Sounds like to dog got over excited and perhaps treated the child as a play mate as opposed to a human


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> _"Rules, boundaries, limitiations..."_
> the host of Natl-geo channel's long-running _"The Dog Whisperer"_ used that tag-line.
> It sounded remarkably similar to what U were saying - hence, the 'channeling' comment.
> 
> ...


I live in the UK as obvious from my profile, what is Natl-geo? who is the dog whisperer you are referring to there are many in the UK who give themselves that name!
All social animals and insects have an hierarchy without that you get chaos, if you live with many dogs as I do then you can see through their interactions with each other there is a social order not a free for all - so instead of presuming you know what I am talking about and making false accusations - maybe learn off your own dogs if you live with a group of them, watch and learn.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> A bite usually results in a puncture wound, whereas hard mouthing can result in a bruise.
> 
> I think there's a big difference. *If a GSD bites, then u go to hospital.
> Hard mouthing*, whilst not acceptable, *is most definitely not a bite.
> If the dog wanted to bite, then it would have been serious.*


Excuse me?

There's nothing in-between "mouthing" & "hospital"? 

"Mouthing" that leaves a bruise *isn't a bite?*

If any dog is "serious", it means stitches?

That's a crock. Please look over the scale here for scoring any dog-bite.
Actually click the link, & read the descriptions. It's written by a vet, & used in legal actions - 
court decisions, assessment for damages, etc.

Ian Dunbar?s Bite Assessment Scale

Note that a level-ONE bite doesn't even touch the person / dog / other target - it's a threat.
QUOTE, _"Dog growls, lunges, snarls - no teeth touch skin. Mostly intimidation behavior."_

Dogs don't bite accidentally, unless they are already biting someone & we get in between - as when some damfool 
shoves a hand between dogs who are fighting, thinking that they can "stop the fight" bare-handed. 

Dogs KNOW that they're about to bite, & can control the force with which they bite to fractions of an ounce.
They can delicately chivvy a tangle or a small seed-pod out of their own or another's hair, or rip to the bone - 
it's not an accident. Making excuses isn't dealing with the facts.

A bruise from teeth isn't an accident, with or without clothing over the bruise.
Whether it's due to over-arousal / poor self-control / aggro / redirected frustration, whatever - 
who knows? THE DOG. We don't. But we do know the dog bit the child.

A neighbor's Cane Corso bitch threatened me a half-dozen times, over a year, in our apt-complex.
The dog never laid a tooth on me, but i took it dam#ed seriously. The dog wasn't joking. I take bites - 
which includes the *intention to bite* - very seriously, indeed.

This event with the GSD-x & the child wasn't mere intent or threat; a bite was delivered.
That it didn't require stitches doesn't mean it wasn't *"serious"*. :nono:
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> I live in the UK... what is Natl-geo?
> 
> who is the dog whisperer[?]
> ...there are many in the UK who give themselves that name!


Natl is a common abbreviation for *national*.

*Geo*graphic is the rest of it; National Geographic is a society of explorers, a magazine, 
several cable channels, educational outreach, websites, films, newsletters, maps, crafts, & more.

In this instance, we're referring to Natl-geo's cable channel & the program that ran for over 6-years,
_"The Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan"_ - and as a member of this forum, there's no way, IMO, 
that U can be as utterly ignorant of the show & the controversy re his methods as U claim to be.

If U're so completely befuddled, Google is Ur friend. Here ya go... hundreds of links.

Google

Moreover, here are the PF-uk where the techniques & tools of CM/DW have been discussed:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/search.php?searchid=4609891

17 pages of threads, dating back to before i joined PF-uk.


Wildmoor said:


> All social animals and insects have an hierarchy; without that you get chaos...


Actually, no - they don't ALL "have a hierarchy".
.
.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

I don't wish to use google maybe your friend not mine, as stated there are many people in the UK who refer themselves to be a 'Dog Whisperer' 
How am I supposed to know US abbreviations when I dont live there, no intention to visit I met enough rude ones whilst visiting family on several occasions in Canada.
I don't have Cable TV mine uses an Ariel, I rarely come on here too many idiots, illiterate people like you.
If you don't use a persons name unfortunately or I should say fortunate I am not a mind reader so I do not know who you refer to.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> I rarely come on here[,] too many idiots[;] illiterate people like you.


well, as i'm effectively using a keyboard, reading & writing replies, illiterate doesn't apply. :001_smile:

However, i agree that we encounter the occasional rude person - which in my case, applies to You.


Wildmoor said:


> If you don't use a [person's, *sic]*] name...


i did:
_"The Dog Whisperer with *Cesar Millan*"_


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> _"Rules, boundaries, limitiations..."_
> the host of Natl-geo channel's long-running _"The Dog Whisperer"_ used that tag-line.
> It sounded remarkably similar to what U were saying - hence, the 'channeling' comment.
> 
> ...





leashedForLife said:


> Natl is a common abbreviation for *national*.
> 
> *Geo*graphic is the rest of it; National Geographic is a society of explorers, a magazine,
> several cable channels, educational outreach, websites, films, newsletters, maps, crafts, & more.
> ...





leashedForLife said:


> well, as i'm effectively using a keyboard, reading & writing replies, illiterate doesn't apply. :001_smile:
> 
> However, i agree that we encounter the occasional rude person - which in my case, applies to You.
> 
> ...


You didnt use a name until post 47
Perhaps you can list some species of insect and animal that live in social groups that do not have a heirachy then ? 
Have you actualy read back through what you have written? with the 'text speak' rather than English.
You obviously do use google a lot if you look at the amount of links you put in your posts.
Maybe you should read and listen more before jumping in and presuming you know how people train and raise their dogs and making false allegations - this is offensive hence my comment about being rude


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, MY... :eek6: *dominance!* It's a terrible thing. :nonod:
> 
> It's also a nonexistent bugbear. :lol: Pups who are brought home by disabled people aren't being pinned
> to the floor, pushed or flooded, confronted or coerced - yet they are often extremely compliant & tolerant,
> ...


Dear Heaven above, the only person who has mentioned DOMINANCE, is you, not wildmoor!

In your lexicon, boundaries, limits, rules may be synonyms for pinning, pushing, flooding, confrontation, or coercion but they are not in mine nor many other people's. 

Perhaps you should spend less time jumping to conclusions and more time actually reading and digesting specific posts.

The only person who is demonstrating a disturbing taste for over dramatisation is yourself.

Rules, boundaries and limitations exist in ALL walks of life be that in families, with animals or at work not to mention life itself; without them anarchy follows.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> You obviously do use google a lot if you look at the amount of links you put in your posts.


Actually, i also know the various links / articles / books / studies, etc, that i have frequently posted, 
repeatedly, over the years i've been training.

I even have pre-made tiny-URLs for specific links that are very-often used, as they're handier - don't break, 
don't need to be updated, etc. :thumbup1:

Did U look at the PF-uk links re CM/DW?
Or are U too busy arguing that i'm a ______ [insert whichever epithet pleases] _____ , 
to actually look at the years of posts & threads which have criticized his tools & tactics?

Just type "cesar millan" into the search box, & hit ENTER. :wink: As i said, there were 17 pages of threads
in the search result - plenty of info for anyone needing it.

After 6 seasons, he was bumped from Natl-Geo's main cable-channel to a subsidiary channel, "The Wild".
But he's still being broadcast, selling his books, DVDs, tickets to seminars, etc.
.
.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Actually, i also know the various links / articles / books / studies, etc, that i have frequently posted,
> repeatedly, over the years i've been training.
> 
> I even have pre-made tiny-URLs for specific links that are very-often used, as they're handier - don't break,
> ...


I dont wish to why should I you obviously have an obsession with this person if he is on your radar I am deffinately not interested, nor any other US programme for that matter.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Actually, i also know the various links / articles / books / studies, etc, that i have frequently posted,
> repeatedly, over the years i've been training.
> 
> I even have pre-made tiny-URLs for specific links that are very-often used, as they're handier - don't break,
> ...


Do you have any useful comments or advice for the original poster?
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> In your lexicon, *boundaries, limits, rules* may be synonyms for *pin, push, flood,
> confront, or coerce* but they are not in mine, nor many other people's. [SNIP]
> 
> *Rules, boundaries and limitations* exist in ALL walks of life...


i specifically referred to His Toothiness - who often uses precisely that phrase as one of his taglines.


Wildmoor said:


> I don[']t wish to[.] [W]hy should I?
> [Y]ou obviously have an obsession with this person...


No, i simply wanted to show U where my distinct impression that U were prating someone else's words 
came from.

However, i'll save time, & just quote him - emphasis added in *bold:*
_Sep 24, 2009 - 
'From the moment puppies are born, the mom sets *rules, boundaries & limitations*.'_

some websites featuring the phrase, delivered by CM/DW:
http://www.cesarsway.com/tips/basics/rules-boundaries-and-limitations

http://www.cesarsway.com/packgallery/challenge101410

& here's a video:
Your Dog Needs Rules, Boundaries and Limitations, from Cesar Millan - YouTube

Those are, BTW, all things that i would *not* recommend U do; dogs don't care who eats first, 
they only care that they are fed - at some point. Dogs want to rush thru doors in order to get outside - or in, 
as the case may be - & they're in a hurry. We can easily teach a dog to politely exit [or enter] without 
smacking into our shins, tripping us, smacking into the door-jamb, etc.

The "pack leader" hooey is just that: hooey. Dogs need to be taught, managed, to learn self-control, 
to learn cued behaviors, to recognize specific contexts. They DON't need to be pinned, choked, pushed, 
poked in the neck, "tapped" in the loin with a shod foot, etc.
At least, that's my experience - as well as my opinion. :001_smile:
.
.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i specifically referred to His Toothiness - who often uses precisely that phrase as one of his taglines. again can you not write English instead of this nonsense
> 
> No, i simply wanted to show U where my distinct impression that U were prating someone else's words
> came from.
> ...



If you are going to reply write English not slang are you a Kid?

I have realised why you are having a go! it is because of this thread http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding-11.html

Sarcastic & rude showing your lack of knowledge


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wildmoor said:


> I have realised why you are having a go! *it is because of this thread*
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding-11.html


say what? :blink:

No, my remarks on this thread are extremely specific to this thread - period.
And unfortunately, this has sod-all to do with the OP.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

among the 1st 40, but i'd especially caution the OP to get a FULL thyroid panel, not be persuaded by any vet to 
"save money" by skipping 1 or more of the tests.

A full panel is a minimum of 5 levels to be tested:
FREE -and- BOUND forms of both T-3 & T-4, plus Thyroid-Stimulating Hormone - TSH.

Some vets will say that one or more tests can be eliminated; that's not true, as Free & Bound forms are floor & ceiling,
& the measurement needed is the number between the 2 forms.

Also, don't let the vet claim that U can "save money" by having the thyroid panel read at the local hospital, 
or in house by the vet; SEND THE BLOOD to either Dodds' HemoPet labs, or to the Michigan State Univ vet-labs.
MSU has the largest breed-specific database of thyroid values, & Dodds DVM has specialized in auto-immine dog 
problems for over 25 years.
.
.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i specifically referred to His Toothiness - who often uses precisely that phrase as one of his taglines.
> 
> No, i simply wanted to show U where my distinct impression that U were prating someone else's words
> came from.
> ...


It may surprise you to know the following:

a) Mr Millan has no copyright on any of the words in the English Language
b) nor has he trademarked any of them or the phrases in which they are used or the context
c)I do not think anyone (other than you) has mentioned anything about

eating first
going through doors first

neither has anyone (other than you) talked about being PACK LEADER

Nor have they suggested pinning, choking, pushing or tapping with the foot

In addition there are one or two member of this forum who are experienced dog trainers in a variety of disciplines at national level as well as respected instructors.

You really must learn to control these hysterical outbursts that merely serve to undermine any credibility you would like your posts to hold.

Take a chill pill love, and relax.

We do not get that worked up about personalities, we just tend to avoid giving them the oxygen of publicity.

But of course if you wish to add to the PR machine of CM, don't let us stop you!


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> say what? :blink:
> 
> No, my remarks on this thread are extremely specific to this thread - period.
> And unfortunately, this has sod-all to do with the OP.


But they were not specific to this thread - you jumped on my post, twisted what I said, made false allegations and assumptions 
I think you need to grow up, maybe a bit less 'google' and more indepth proper research from journals


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

_"gee-willikers, Mr Wilson, that ignore button is sure handy!" _ :thumbsup:

To return to the subject at hand, Nat&Andy, have U any updates for us?

Has management helped to reduce the tension in the household?
Have U any feedback from the vet?


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