# Dining rooms may be taxed



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Dining rooms may be taxed | The Sunday Times

DINING rooms, praised by the government as crucial to family cohesion, may become subject to David Camerons controversial bedroom tax. Councils will be allowed to classify dining rooms as bedrooms for the purposes of the new tax, which comes into force next month.

Under the reform, families will have the amount of benefit they can claim cut if they are considered to have a spare room in their council or housing association home. The so-called under-occupation penalty is designed to encourage people to move into smaller accommodation to make way for bigger families.

Tenants will be able to choose whether they want to pay extra rent  an average of £14 a week  or move into smaller accommodation.

*WTF will they come up with next? *


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

My dining room isn't used by us,it is the dogs room.I own the house so they can go swing


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

There is another tax coming in soon , if you extend your house or do a loft extension you will pay a charge per square meter to the council as they obviously not making enough money from stamp duty as no one can move at the moment


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lol You surely dont mean the room where the kitchen table is? Thats ridiculous its part of the house.. wtf


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> lol You surely dont mean the room where the kitchen table is? Thats ridiculous its part of the house.. wtf


*Some house have a kitchen, dining room and a lounge. It's the dining room they are talking about taxing.Next it will probably be the toilet.
*


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Some house have a kitchen, dining room and a lounge. It's the dining room they are talking about taxing.Next it will probably be the toilet.
> *


That is insane, and pure greed right there.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

If people choose to move to a smaller property then they will be given a couple of k to downgrade and a larger family can be housed.

Not being funny but a family on benefits can live quite comfortable as nearly everything gets paid for them..rent, council tax, school dinners, prescriptions, lump sums off the energy bills every winter. Why should a tax payer pay for them to have a large house which is bigger than they need? 
It doesnt bother me a jot how big someones house is as long as they are paying for it themselves!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> If people choose to move to a smaller property then they will be given a couple of k to downgrade and a larger family can be housed.
> 
> Not being funny but a family on benefits can live quite comfortable as nearly everything gets paid for them..rent, council tax, school dinners, prescriptions, lump sums off the energy bills every winter. Why should a tax payer pay for them to have a large house which is bigger than they need?
> It doesnt bother me a jot how big someones house is as long as they are paying for it themselves!


*Where did you get that from? I don't know anyone on jobseekers or other benefits that get their energy bills paid for them..Or part of them.
As for having a large house, since when has a dining room been classed as an extra room?*


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Well, we had better hope that no-one in the government is sh!t-hot with their history seeing as how we had a 'Window Tax' in 1696 and a 'Wallpaper Tax' in 1712.

The last thing we need is them getting inspiration from the past................


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Where did you get that from? I don't know anyone on jobseekers or other benefits that get their energy bills paid for them..Or part of them.
> As for having a large house, since when has a dining room been classed as an extra room?*


People on benefits get a credit from their energy company every winter £50 for gas and the same for electric. 
A dining room aint a bedroom but there are alot of people who are on long term benefits who cant be bothered to get off their lazy @rses and support their families!

I know of one family who was on disability...all of a sudden the the month before the tax comes in they are in work  the hilarious thing is they think they are gonna be soooooo much better off as they will be earning DOUBLE the benefits per week! Phaaaa yeah then you take ALL your bills, rent, ctax and everything out after that and your better off screwing the system!

FYI that was just an example of one family on benefits and they just happened to be in disability, i have no problem with genuine disability cases.

Its about time people on long term benefits were given a shock up the arse and got back into work!


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

MoggyBaby said:


> Well, we had better hope that no-one in the government is sh!t-hot with their history seeing as how we had a* 'Window Tax' *in 1696 and a *'Wallpaper Tax' in 1712.*
> 
> The last thing we need is them getting inspiration from the past................


haha thats just... no comment... I thought our gov stealing dorment bank accs after three yrs with no deposit was bad... eff me.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> People on benefits get a credit from their energy company every winter £50 for gas and the same for electric.
> A dining room aint a bedroom but there are alot of people who are on long term benefits who cant be bothered to get off their lazy @rses and support their families!
> 
> I know of one family who was on disability...all of a sudden the the month before the tax comes in they are in work  the hilarious thing is they think they are gonna be soooooo much better off as they will be earning DOUBLE the benefits per week! Phaaaa yeah then you take ALL your bills, rent, ctax and everything out after that and your better off screwing the system!
> ...


*I still believe you are 100% wrong about this. But if you can link me to somewhere that backs this up, i would appreciate it.
Not everyone on benefits are screwing the system. The TRUE fact is, only a minority are.*


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I still believe you are 100% wrong about this. But if you can link me to somewhere that backs this up, i would appreciate it.
> Not everyone on benefits are screwing the system. The TRUE fact is, only a minority are. *


I appreciate that you say this Jan but no-one ever seems able to provide a figure on what the minority is. After all, 49% is a minority......


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I still believe you are 100% wrong about this. But if you can link me to somewhere that backs this up, i would appreciate it.
> Not everyone on benefits are screwing the system. The TRUE fact is, only a minority are.*


Think what you like, when my oh was made redundant we obviously had to sign on for a few months why he got another job, this happened to be through the winter and we got a credit on both as we were on benefits.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

MoggyBaby said:


> I appreciate that you say this Jan but no-one ever seems able to provide a figure on what the minority is. After all, 49% is a minority......


Totally agree!

I think people should be given a grace period of 12months on benefits before they get the extra taxes etc after all people who are genuine and looking for work will have to wait for interviews to be arranged and people to get back to them etc. Sometimes the companies dont even respond to applications which is not their fault.


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## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

i may as well live in a cardboard box ... i live in a housing association 1 bedroom flat and yes i do work (16 hours ) ... the only help i get is with my rent , no i don't pay it all but i do pay some of it, i also qualify for Council Tax (which is in the middle of being sorted) but that is all i get .. yes i pay for my prescriptions , dentist , water , gas , electric ect ect so not everyone on H benefits gets everything paid for and im certainly not a lazy good for nothing


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

The warm home discount scheme for people on a 'low income' 
Help for our priority customers - Southern Electric

You do not qualify if you are not on benefits  As they ask you what your claiming before they send you the form.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


MoggyBaby said:



I appreciate that you say this Jan but no-one ever seems able to provide a figure on what the minority is. After all, 49% is a minority...... 

Click to expand...

Take a look at this, so far it's the latest figures i can find.
http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd2/fem/nsfr-final-291112.pdf

Also this.
Benefit fraud is just a distraction from real issue of tax dodgers - Socialvoices on MSN News UK

But note, they are not hitting the tax dodgers.*


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

I think that is so wrong. I have just moved from a very small house to a large 2 bed house with dining room and 2 reception rooms. I work bloody hard long hours to be able to afford it why should I be taxed more to try and coax me out.

This country is getting ridiculous!

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

CaliDog said:


> I think that is so wrong. I have just moved from a very small house to a large 2 bed house with dining room and 2 reception rooms. I work bloody hard long hours to be able to afford it why should I be taxed more to try and coax me out.
> 
> This country is getting ridiculous!
> 
> _Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


My understanding is that this is being geared towards those who are in council or Housing Association homes. So one little old lady who lives alone in a 3-bed, 2 reception room council home will be taxed highly but not a family with three children as all bedrooms and dining room would be in full use at all times.


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> Take a look at this, so far it's the latest figures i can find.
> http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd2/fem/nsfr-final-291112.pdf
> ...


I don't think it was suggested that the issue was fraud. You don't have to make a fraudulent claim to work the system - and many people who are perfectly capable of getting a job are instead rinsing benefits for all they're worth, perfectly within their 'rights' to do so.

People can complain about this all they like, but at the end of the day they're fortunate to live in a country where jobless doesn't automatically equal homeless. When so much to benefits recipients is either free or subsidised, I don't think claimants are in any position to complain.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tamsin W said:


> I don't think it was suggested that the issue was fraud. You don't have to make a fraudulent claim to work the system - and many people who are perfectly capable of getting a job are instead rinsing benefits for all they're worth, perfectly within their 'rights' to do so.
> 
> People can complain about this all they like, but at the end of the day they're fortunate to live in a country where jobless doesn't automatically equal homeless. When so much to benefits recipients is either free or subsidised, I don't think claimants are in any position to complain.


*They have a right to be able to live a decent standard of life. The government states its self that a person needs X amount to live on each week. Well now they are going to make them pay bedroom tax, and a percentage of their council tax. They won't be able to afford to feed themselves.*


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

All the systems in place at the moment are flawed. 

We know that not ALL people on benefits are scroungers - but there are a large number that are. We can all give examples of people we know who are playing the system and we, the tax payer, are paying for them.

No-one begrudges genuine cases of people on disability benefits, but we all know of people who are playing the system. I've known of someone who was given a car because of their disabilities, but regularly went out on his racing bicycle 

It also seems ridiculous that someone in a council house with 3 bedrooms living alone should not be encouraged to swap with someone who has a need for more space, i.e. a young family. Of course, you can't just turf people out of their homes, but I am sure there are ways of making this option attractive to people. Instead of taxing those that don't, why not an incentive/reward for those that do?

Does this new proposal effect only council owned property? Or people on benefits? 

I don't see why someone who owns their own home should be taxed for improving it though?

I own my 2 bedroomed, end terraced home and have had a conservatory built on the back. Should I pay tax for the priviledge of having it - after all it is still within the boundary of my property?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

MoggyBaby said:


> My understanding is that this is being geared towards those who are in council or Housing Association homes. So one little old lady who lives alone in a 3-bed, 2 reception room council home will be taxed highly but not a family with three children as all bedrooms and dining room would be in full use at all times.


I did see an article on TV the other week which was outline the problem facing emergency foster parents - whose spare bedrooms would be deemed to be not occupied on a permanent basis (because they take kids literally at short notice and for short periods so there could be occasions when the room is classed as empty). That definitely sounds ridiculous as the suggestion was that some fosterers would be forced to give up, because they would have to pay the tax, whether they were earning on that room or not


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *They have a right to be able to live a decent standard of life. The government states its self that a person needs X amount to live on each week. Well now they are going to make them pay bedroom tax, and a percentage of their council tax. They won't be able to afford to feed themselves.*


Really?

In one article (Channel 4 News) on the topic of bedroom tax, a quote from one affected party - "_And we'll have to cancel the television subscription_." Sorry, but cry me a river.

Show me one legitimate case of an affected individual who can't either a) get a job that pays £14 a week, b) figure out some way to make £14 a week from home, or c) cut £14 a week from their 'unnecessary expenses' budget. I'm sure these individuals do exist, but I find it highly unlikely that this applies to the majority.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> Well, we had better hope that no-one in the government is sh!t-hot with their history seeing as how we had a 'Window Tax' in 1696 and a 'Wallpaper Tax' in 1712.
> 
> The last thing we need is them getting inspiration from the past................


Don't forget the hairpowder tax, they used to tax the powder you put on your wig.....


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tamsin W said:


> Really?
> 
> In one article (Channel 4 News) on the topic of bedroom tax, a quote from one affected party - "_And we'll have to cancel the television subscription_." Sorry, but cry me a river.
> 
> Show me one legitimate case of an affected individual who can't either a) get a job that pays £14 a week, b) figure out some way to make £14 a week from home, or c) cut £14 a week from their 'unnecessary expenses' budget. I'm sure these individuals do exist, but I find it highly unlikely that this applies to the majority.


*I know of 2 people..one gets £69 per week the other £71
Now they have to pay, gas, electric, water, then the new bedroom tax, then a percentage of their council tax.
How much would be left after that?*


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I know of 2 people..one gets £69 per week the other £71
> Now they have to pay, gas, electric, water, then the new bedroom tax, then a percentage of their council tax.
> How much would be left after that?*


Then they should get a job and they wouldnt have to pay the extra would they?


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I know of 2 people..one gets £69 per week the other £71
> Now they have to pay, gas, electric, water, then the new bedroom tax, then a percentage of their council tax.
> How much would be left after that?*


And is there a reason why they're exempt from either a) get a job, or b) make money from home?

If they're subject to bedroom 'tax' (not a tax), stands to reason they have space that isn't necessary in their home. Obviously they're not in a position to sub-let if they're in social housing, but I don't think there's any reason why they can't use something like Storemates and offer storage:

https://storemates.co.uk/index.php

They 'have to' pay for gas, electric and water? God forbid they pay for the services and utilities they're using. Whatever will they think of next?!

And incidentally - you might want to tell every homeless person on the street that it's their 'right' to live a decent standard of life, I'm sure they'd thank you for this information. As far as I'm concerned, these are the genuinely 'needy' people, and this is where charity (what benefits essentially are) should start.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Then they should get a job and they wouldnt have to pay the extra would they?





Tamsin W said:


> And is there a reason why they're exempt from either a) get a job, or b) make money from home?
> 
> If they're subject to bedroom 'tax' (not a tax), stands to reason they have space that isn't necessary in their home. Obviously they're not in a position to sub-let if they're in social housing, but I don't think there's any reason why they can't use something like Storemates and offer storage:
> 
> ...


*LMAO..bloody typical reply for those that know no better.
These people CANNOT work, they are NOT the cheats people like you would like to believe they are.
I hope to god, people with this attitude find yourselves in the same situation.*


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *LMAO..bloody typical reply for those that know no better.
> These people CANNOT work, they are NOT the cheats people like you would like to believe they are.
> I hope to god, people with this attitude find yourselves in the same situation.*


As far as I'm aware, provided they inform the council and have been in the property for a certain duration, they're within their rights to take on a lodger to occupy the spare room.

Is this also something they 'CANNOT' do?

I have no problem accepting that some people are unable to go out to a 9-5 for whatever reason, but there are myriad ways to either reduce costs or earn a small income without doing this. So many people are quick to throw their hands up and complain that their free stuff is getting taken away, without taking even a few minutes to research how best to *help themselves*.

From dwp.gov.uk:



> _From April 2013 there will be new rules in Housing Benefit for working-age people living in social housing. Housing Benefit will no longer pay for bedrooms that they decide you do not need.
> 
> For some people, offering out a spare room to a lodger may be a sensible option. This would mean that Housing Benefit would no longer consider the room to be spare.
> 
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *LMAO..bloody typical reply for those that know no better.
> These people CANNOT work, they are NOT the cheats people like you would like to believe they are.
> I hope to god, people with this attitude find yourselves in the same situation.*


Its the Im alright Jack mentality Janice!... None of this affects me but I think how these changes to the welfare system & all these taxes could have affected my lovely Mum had she been alive today & had they not bought their council house. I think of the worry and upset it would have caused her when she was so poorly so my heart goes out to all the other genuine people this govt are trampling on.

This govt & the press are doing a great job setting ordinary people against each other. Does anyone care that this ..'We're all in this together' only applies the poorest, most vunerable members of society?

Why arent people enraged that the govt arent hitting the wealthiest with mansion taxes & land taxes?

.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

harley bear said:


> *Its about time people on long term benefits were given a shock up the arse and got back into work!*


Wish it was that easy.... Any clue where these jobs are???
What about the genuine cases that would LOVE to work but either can't find an employer that is willing to give them a chance or are just unable to work??

Yes the scroungers need to be sorted out, but the reality is that the genuine people that are the ones suffering right now......


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

Jan - got my book open again as to when thread will be closed

Any takers on what page ??? ??? hmy:


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Its the Im alright Jack mentality Janice!...
> <snip>
> 
> This govt & the press are doing a great job setting ordinary people against each other. Does anyone care that this ..'We're all in this together' only applies the poorest, most vunerable members of society?
> ...


I think you'll find the answer to this actually lies in Janices links to the DWP site with the stats for 2011:

*"The estimate of total overpayments due to fraud and error across all benefits is £3.4bn; this is 2.1% of the total benefit expenditure, which was £159.2bn in 2011/12. " *

£159.2bn paid out in benefits!!!! In one year!!!! 

How do you expect hard-working people to feel when they see figures like that????? 25% of my wages goes into the govt pocket every month and yet I still have to pay £8 a time for every prescription item I may happen to require. I have to pay full whack if I travel on public transport... Or use my local council-run gym...... Or go to the cinema!!!

The working people have paid this £159.2 bn but all they ever see in return is a slap in the face and told to get on with it!!!


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

They'll be taxing garden sheds and dog kennels next. Gawd, hope I haven't put the idea in their heads.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *LMAO..bloody typical reply for those that know no better.
> These people CANNOT work, they are NOT the cheats people like you would like to believe they are.
> I hope to god, people with this attitude find yourselves in the same situation.*


Did i say they were cheats? You did not mention them being disabled did you janice? Also if you read my posts properly you would understand i dont have a problem with people who are in genuine need


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> Its the Im alright Jack mentality Janice!... None of this affects me but I think how these changes to the welfare system & all these taxes could have affected my lovely Mum had she been alive today & had they not bought their council house. I think of the worry and upset it would have caused her when she was so poorly so my heart goes out to all the other genuine people this govt are trampling on.
> 
> This govt & the press are doing a great job setting ordinary people against each other. Does anyone care that this ..'We're all in this together' only applies the poorest, most vunerable members of society?
> 
> ...


*To be honest noushka i'm saddened that so many people have such a **** attitude towards the less well off. But they pretend to love animals. Yeah i believe that as much as i believe Cameron is a caring guy.
Your right, he has done a fine job, in turning the working class against each other. Such a sad state of affairs.
I'll just add this, i was talking to hubby about these housing changes.I wonder how many new council tenants will take a pride in their homes.Lets face it, why would they, they could loose it whenever the council changed their minds again.*


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> Wish it was that easy.... Any clue where these jobs are???
> What about the genuine cases that would LOVE to work but either can't find an employer that is willing to give them a chance or are just unable to work??
> 
> Yes the scroungers need to be sorted out, but the reality is that the genuine people that are the ones suffering right now......


Todays society have a half arsed attitude and think alot of available jobs are beneath them! There are jobs there.

My oh managed to get a job within two weeks of looking last time so if people looked hard enough they would find something


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

QUOTE:To be honest noushka i'm saddened that so many people have such a **** attitude towards the less well off. But they pretend to love animals. UNQUOTE

What is the connection?


QUOTE: I'll just add this, i was talking to hubby about these housing changes.I wonder how many new council tenants will take a pride in their homes.Lets face it, why would they, they could loose it whenever the council changed their minds again. UNQUOTE

Why not - it is to their own benefit if they are living there surely? Of course, if they are scumbags then probably not.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *To be honest noushka i'm saddened that so many people have such a **** attitude towards the less well off. But they pretend to love animals. Yeah i believe that as much as i believe Cameron is a caring guy.
> Your right, he has done a fine job, in turning the working class against each other. Such a sad state of affairs.
> I'll just add this, i was talking to hubby about these housing changes.I wonder how many new council tenants will take a pride in their homes.Lets face it, why would they, they could loose it whenever the council changed their minds again.*


In fairness Jan, I think Blair & Brown were the guys responsible for "turning the working class against each other" by allowing such huge numbers to get benefits SO easily it has become a way of life for many and creating a Catch-22 scenario by allowing the claiming of benefits to be more financially rewarding than actually getting a job.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

MoggyBaby said:


> In fairness Jan, I think Blair & Brown were the guys responsible for "turning the working class against each other" by allowing such huge numbers to get benefits SO easily it has become a way of life for many and creating a Catch-22 scenario by allowing the claiming of benefits to be more financially rewarding than actually getting a job.


*Actually i believe the trouble started with Thatcher. And i'm not saying Labour were squeaky clean. ( i don't favour any of them ).*


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

harley bear said:


> Todays society have a half arsed attitude and think alot of available jobs are beneath them! There are jobs there.
> 
> My oh managed to get a job within two weeks of looking last time so if people looked hard enough they would find something


I agree.

I have been on the look out for a part-time job for quite a while but it is purely out of choice (we can just about manage on hubby's earnings, but don't lead an extravagant lifestyle btw). Because I am in the fortunate position to be able to be selective I have not found anything that suits me or my circumstances, yet.

However, if we were struggling to survive on my OH's money then I could have applied for countless jobs by now. There are lots of jobs available, but people don't want to do them because they are not "ideal".

If you need the money, then you have to take what's available.


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *To be honest noushka i'm saddened that so many people have such a **** attitude towards the less well off. But they pretend to love animals. Yeah i believe that as much as i believe Cameron is a caring guy.
> Your right, he has done a fine job, in turning the working class against each other. Such a sad state of affairs.
> I'll just add this, i was talking to hubby about these housing changes.I wonder how many new council tenants will take a pride in their homes.Lets face it, why would they, they could loose it whenever the council changed their minds again.*


I'm really failing to see why this has any relevance whatsoever to 'pretending to love animals'. Your argument sort of fell flat on its face at this point.

Re. taking pride in their homes - you realise the situation you've described is no different to *anyone* who doesn't own their home? How many private tenants have been turfed out when their landlord has decided to sell up? Answer - a lot (it happened to me on at least one occasion prior to buying). As regards anyone who would wilfully neglect their home because they didn't own it - this rather speaks volumes about the individual, as opposed to their indefinite circumstances.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

harley bear said:


> People on benefits get a credit from their energy company every winter £50 for gas and the same for electric.
> A dining room aint a bedroom but there are alot of people who are on long term benefits who cant be bothered to get off their lazy @rses and support their families!
> 
> I know of one family who was on disability...all of a sudden the the month before the tax comes in they are in work  the hilarious thing is they think they are gonna be soooooo much better off as they will be earning DOUBLE the benefits per week! Phaaaa yeah then you take ALL your bills, rent, ctax and everything out after that and your better off screwing the system!
> ...


All I got was a one off £25 cold weather payment , so wheres this £50 credit , or doesnt it apply for people on ESA

Edited to add ... since when was a dining room a bedroom ? 
Once the dining table and chairs are in there wouldnt be room for a bed , and tbh who would want to sit at a table for dinner next to a bed ?


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

My goodness this government have cracked it, turning people on each other instead of us asking why they allowed mismanagement of the finances to get in this situation,its easy to say get a job when you have one, in Hemel Hempstead 16 jobs were advertised and they had 2234 applicants,the poor are getting poorer and the rich richer and those in the middle paying for it.As for paying off our deficit not happening and always some bullshite excuse why.How are they going to put people into smaller accomadation where are all these smaller properties?:cursing:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Mese said:


> All I got was a one off £25 cold weather payment , so wheres this £50 credit , or doesnt it apply for people on ESA


*Am i right in saying, you only get that if the weather is minus x amount of degrees for x amount of days on the trot?*


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Todays society have a half arsed attitude and think alot of available jobs are beneath them! There are jobs there.
> 
> My oh managed to get a job within two weeks of looking last time so if people looked hard enough they would find something


My OH was made redundant back in 2009 when all the [email protected] first hit the fan.

He got his redundancy letter on the Friday and, by the following Tuesday started his new temp postion which has now become his full-time job. The ONLY reason he didn't start it on the Monday was because we were off on a long-weekend break.

He had to take a BIG pay-cut, and we've had to struggle at times, but his words were "I've never claimed benefit in all my life, I'm not about to start now!"

More of that attitude would not go amiss.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Am i right in saying, you only get that if the weather is minus x amount of degrees for x amount of days on the trot?*


tbh hun I havent a clue , Ive never heard of it before , it was certainly helpful though I will say that


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Mese said:


> All I got was a one off £25 cold weather payment , so wheres this £50 credit , or doesnt it apply for people on ESA
> 
> Edited to add ... since when was a dining room a bedroom ?
> Once the dining table and chairs are in there wouldnt be room for a bed , and tbh who would want to sit at a table for dinner next to a bed ?


Maybe its different amounts depending on who you are with.



MoggyBaby said:


> My OH was made redundant back in 2009 when all the [email protected] first hit the fan.
> 
> He got his redundancy letter on the Friday and, by the following Tuesday started his new temp postion which has now become his full-time job. The ONLY reason he didn't start it on the Monday was because we were off on a long-weekend break.
> 
> ...


Exactly, im fed up of this countrys attitude towards work.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

MoggyBaby said:


> My OH was made redundant back in 2009 when all the [email protected] first hit the fan.
> 
> He got his redundancy letter on the Friday and, by the following Tuesday started his new temp postion which has now become his full-time job. The ONLY reason he didn't start it on the Monday was because we were off on a long-weekend break.
> 
> ...


Before my illness that was my attitude and how I raised my Daughter ... she is 28 now and has NEVER gone on the dole , she manages to find a job easily , it may not be her ideal job , some she has described as hell on earth , but she would work them while searching for a better one
It annoys the hell out of her when her friends say there arent any jobs out there , she replies that what they really mean is there arent any cushy over paid jobs where they barely have to lift a finger out there


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Some house have a kitchen, dining room and a lounge. It's the dining room they are talking about taxing.Next it will probably be the toilet.
> *


please,dont tell them i have an outside toilet too


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

harley bear said:


> If people choose to move to a smaller property then they will be given a couple of k to downgrade and a larger family can be housed.
> 
> Not being funny but a family on benefits can live quite comfortable as nearly everything gets paid for them..rent, council tax, school dinners, prescriptions, lump sums off the energy bills every winter. Why should a tax payer pay for them to have a large house which is bigger than they need?
> It doesnt bother me a jot how big someones house is as long as they are paying for it themselves!


What if that family have paid into the system in the past and are entitled to some comeback?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> What if that family have paid into the system in the past and are entitled to some comeback?


Phaaaa! Seriously? You just take one look at them and speak to them for 2 seconds to know they have no intention of working! 
The one and only reason they have been kicked into gear is 1) the benefit reform and 2) the bedroom tax!

He was disabled 2 weeks ago..obviously was able enough to run down the shop for his **** and booze! and all of a sudden hes working..not only that hes biking it over 6miles to get there  disables my arse!:cursing:


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Phaaaa! Seriously? You just take one look at them and speak to them for 2 seconds to know they have no intention of working!
> The one and only reason they have been kicked into gear is 1) the benefit reform and 2) the bedroom tax!
> 
> He was disabled 2 weeks ago..obviously was able enough to run down the shop for his **** and booze! and all of a sudden hes working..not only that hes biking it over 6miles to get there  disables my arse!:cursing:


I was talking about 'families' in general..not a specific family.There are families that fall on hard times through no fault of their own..so they should be expected to leave their home before theyve even had a chance to recover and begin the search for another job?
I believe you are in social housing? You receive tax credits I'm sure...paid for by the taxpayer...so still relying on others to afford to live?


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## laurahair (Apr 21, 2011)

wow, some very ill-informed judgemental people around here!

I started working part -time while in school and college, when I left college I worked full time firstly in Tesco and then as an engineer in the RAF. I voluntarily gave up work to raise my children, my husband was employed and we claimed no benefits at all.

Fast forward to now-I find myself a single mother, after moving back in with my parents for over a year (with my 3 children) I am now lucky enough to be in social housing. I claim income support (which will end when my youngest is in school, I will then claim jobseekers as I will be actively looking for a job), housing benefit etc. 
As it happens I am not under-occupying as my house is 3 bedroomed and has no dining room BUT I know several people in the same situation who "only" have 2 children and will therefore be subject to the bedroom tax. One in particular was housed in a hostel for over a year, when applying for social housing she was told not to apply for 2 bedrooms as they are in short supply and she was entitled to a 3. Now she is being told that as her children are under 10 they can share a room. She cannot move as there are no 2-bedroom houses available, but cannot take in a lodger as both children's rooms are single rooms under 70 sq ft and therefore not suitable to rent out!

This is a badly thought out scheme at best, it will not affect the elderly people under-occupying by the way, it is only for those of working age.

The vast majority of people claiming benefits are doing so because they have a genuine need, not because they are too lazy to work or don't wish to do a job beneath them (see my previous job shelf stacking in a supermarket while qualified as an engineer, I have also nearly completely an OU degree whilst being a single mum).

When applying for social housing here, you apply for what you are told to, and you take what is offered and are grateful for it.

ETA: to find the money for my council tax I will be taking it out of my household budget-this covers food, trips out for kids etc. I don't have a tv subscription, don't smoke or drink or even drive (i couldn't possibly afford to run a car on benefits!). It's not all rosy here in benefit-scrounging land you know.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> I was talking about 'families' in general..not a specific family.There are families that fall on hard times through no fault of their own..so they should be expected to leave their home before theyve even had a chance to recover and begin the search for another job?
> I believe you are in social housing? You receive tax credits I'm sure...paid for by the taxpayer...so still relying on others to afford to live?


I have said that people should have a 12 month grace period before the taxes start as 12 months is long term.

Yes we do live in a council house, we pay 100% of our rent, council tax and all our bills. Yes we receive a small amount of tax credits..my oh also works his balls off to support his family. Everyone who works and earns less than 60k (i think) gets tax credits.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

harley bear said:


> I have said that people should have a 12 month grace period before the taxes start as 12 months is long term.
> 
> Yes we do live in a council house, we pay 100% of our rent, council tax and all our bills. Yes we receive a small amount of tax credits..my oh also works his balls off to support his family. Everyone who works and earns less than 60k (i think) gets tax credits.


I cannot believe you live in a council house yet speak the way you do about those claiming anything!

God forbid you end up like so many and have to move out of your home as they deem your children could all sleep in one bedroom.

I would have thought someone who relies on the government for something as big as their housing would have more sympathy!


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

harley bear said:


> I have said that people should have a 12 month grace period before the taxes start as 12 months is long term.
> 
> Yes we do live in a council house, we pay 100% of our rent, council tax and all our bills. Yes we receive a small amount of tax credits..my oh also works his balls off to support his family. Everyone who works and earns less than* 60k *(i think) gets tax credits.


It's a lot less now 


> As a very rough guide, if your annual income is not above one of the following 'limits', you can probably get tax credits:
> if you have one child it is £26,000
> if you have two children it is £32,200
> if you're single without children it is £13,000
> if youre in a couple without children it is £18,000


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> I cannot believe you live in a council house yet speak the way you do about those claiming anything!
> 
> God forbid you end up like so many and have to move out of your home as they deem your children could all sleep in one bedroom.
> 
> I would have thought someone who relies on the government for something as big as their housing would have more sympathy!


Excuse me we pay 100% of our rent and dont claim a penny! And you know why? Because my husband works all the hours god sends.

Why should i have sympathy for people who wont even get off their arse and flip a burger to support their kids


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Excuse me we pay 100% of our rent and dont claim a penny! And you know why? Because my husband works all the hours god sends.
> 
> Why should i have sympathy for people who wont even get off their arse and flip a burger to support their kids


Ah but it is rent at a reduced rate!!

Maybe those people are ill and cannot do things you and your hard working OH can!!!

As I see it you have a council home yet have quite a few children too. Maybe some of the things you say about others people could say about yourself, how would you feel then?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> I have said that people should have a 12 month grace period before the taxes start as 12 months is long term.
> 
> Yes we do live in a council house, we pay 100% of our rent, council tax and all our bills. Yes we receive a small amount of tax credits..my oh also works his balls off to support his family. Everyone who works and earns less than 60k (i think) gets tax credits.


*Can i ask, do you work also?*


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

harley bear said:


> Excuse me we pay 100% of our rent and dont claim a penny! And you know why? Because my husband works all the hours god sends.
> 
> Why should i have sympathy for people who wont even get off their arse and flip a burger to support their kids


Your rent won't even be close to what private tenants have to pay.

My MIL pays £50 odd pound a week for her 3 bed council house, that is less than half what I have to pay for a similar sized house.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> Ah but it is rent at a reduced rate!!


Is it bollucks! Infact its just gone up as it does every year.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> There is another tax coming in soon , if you extend your house or do a loft extension you will pay a charge per square meter to the council as they obviously not making enough money from stamp duty as no one can move at the moment


Councils don't get stamp duty the government does.

I suspect the increase is because council tax bandings were set many years ago and have never been revised. So are based on low valuations compared to today's market.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Excuse me we pay 100% of our rent and dont claim a penny! And you know why? Because my husband works all the hours god sends.
> 
> Why should i have sympathy for people who wont even get off their arse and flip a burger to support their kids


You don't pay everything...you claim tax credits. Without those credits you wouldn't be able to live so your OH isn't earning enough to support you all and you have 3 kiddies...believe it or not HB, you are in the same shite as everyone else.
If you woke up tomorrow and your OH had left you...you'd be facing the same as the people you are critisicing.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Can i ask, do you work also?*


No, i look after my kids. I will be at work as soon as my youngest is at school.



B3rnie said:


> Your rent won't even be close to what private tenants have to pay.
> 
> My MIL pays £50 odd pound a week for her 3 bed council house, that is less than half what I have to pay for a similar sized house.


I want to be living where you are our rent is £100 a week.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Is it bollucks! Infact its just gone up as it does every year.


Compare it to your area and then you'll see. It is at a much reduced rate to the norm.

It has gone up on your scale but not nationwide!!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

harley bear said:


> I want to be living where you are our rent is £100 a week.


For a 3 bed house? That is cheap!

Council rents are ALWAYS cheaper then a private lease.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> You don't pay everything...you claim tax credits. Without those credits you wouldn't be able to live so your OH isn't earning enough to support you all and you have 3 kiddies...believe it or not HB, you are in the same shite as everyone else.
> If you woke up tomorrow and your OH had left you...you'd be facing the same as the people you are critisicing.


No, a 'family' (mom, dad, kids) there is no excuse under the sun for one of the parents not to go out to work and provide for their kids if they are not disable.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Harleybear - think its £45k. 

Emmaviolet - just because she qualifies for a council house doesn't mean she would support benefits for people who don't deserve them. Sounds like she pays her way to me. Being a council tenant doesn't mean you are a scrounger.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

harley bear said:


> No, i look after my kids. I will be at work as soon as my youngest is at school.
> 
> I want to be living where you are our rent is £100 a week.


Still less than what I have to pay  You can deny it as much as you like council rent is not as high as private let.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> For a 3 bed house? That is cheap!
> 
> Council rents are ALWAYS cheaper then a private lease.


Not where we are. Its roughly the same..it differs by area.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

harley bear said:


> No, a 'family' (mom, dad, kids) there is no excuse under the sun for one of the parents not to go out to work and provide for their kids if they are not disable.


But then you could go out to work and afford a house that is not council then, by your high standards!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Not where we are. Its roughly the same..it differs by area.


It's not, it never is.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> No, i look after my kids. I will be at work as soon as my youngest is at school.
> 
> *So i could argue, that you should not have had more children if you need to rely on the state for benefit. ie. tax credit. Sorry i don't understand your logic.
> 
> *


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

harley bear said:


> No, i look after my kids. I will be at work as soon as my youngest is at school.
> 
> I want to be living where you are our rent is £100 a week.


Didn't you get a 3/4 bed house ? Private rent on that here would be £700+ for 3 bed , so it is subsidised in a way ...... you could afford to live if you didn't have a housing association house


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

harley bear said:


> No, i look after my kids. I will be at work as soon as my youngest is at school.
> 
> I want to be living where you are our rent is £100 a week.


£400 a month wouldn't get you a rat-infested hell hole with a leaky roof around here on the private rental market, and it's relatively cheap here compared to where I've lived in the past. Your housing is heavily subsidised by taxation, which is as it should be as far as I'm concerned. But it seems odd that you would be so eager to condemn others who receive financial help from the state.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> Harleybear - think its £45k.
> 
> Emmaviolet - just because she qualifies for a council house doesn't mean she would support benefits for people who don't deserve them. Sounds like she pays her way to me. Being a council tenant doesn't mean you are a scrounger.


I would much rather see council houses full of people who work than full of families who have no intention of working....and believe it or not when we moved here last year we were told by the council that we were given priority because my oh works.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> harley bear said:
> 
> 
> > No, i look after my kids. I will be at work as soon as my youngest is at school.
> ...


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Not where we are. Its roughly the same..it differs by area.


Not anywhere in the country would you find a 3 bed house for rent of £100 per week.

Plus things like the boiler fixed by the council.

Seems you are a hypocrite, you take what you need and screw anyone else who may need a bit more then you and yours.

Sorry but that seems to be the truth of things.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

harley bear said:


> I would much rather see council houses full of people who work than full of families who have no intention of working....and believe it or not when we moved here last year we were told by the council that we were given priority because my oh works.


For now he does...you watch out if anything happens and he has to give it up and you couldnt work either. The government will screw you. Having a council house is a luxury .


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Todays society have a half arsed attitude and think alot of available jobs are beneath them! There are jobs there.
> 
> My oh managed to get a job within two weeks of looking last time so if people looked hard enough they would find something


I was made redundant in 2007 after working for 28 years, decided not to bother with a job for the rest of the year - had a big holiday planned in the October. Thought getting another job on similar money would have been easy it wasn't. Had some knee operations in 2008, it took me from late 2008 to 2010 to get a permanent job, I was temping and probably only worked about 4 months in 2009.

I applied for just about everything under the sun, but certainly wasn't taken seriously when applying for job on a third of what I previously earned.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> But then you could go out to work and afford a house that is not council then, by your high standards!


And who would look after her children? The state? Taxpayers again.

IMO Harleybeard has a job - bringing up her children.

Her husband works. They pay their rent, council tax, etc.

They are not relying on the state. Wish everyone could say the same


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

Lavenderb said:


> For now he does...you watch out if anything happens and he has to give it up and you couldnt work either. The government will screw you. *Having a council house is a luxury *.


Isn't it just, I've been on the council list for 6 years now, and we aren't even close to getting a house yet


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> For now he does...you watch out if anything happens and he has to give it up and you couldnt work either. The government will screw you. Having a council house is a luxury .


So what if he does? See my oh would flip burgers for a living if there were 'no jobs about' but he wouldnt be without work long because hes not like that.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm always on the fence with this debate. 

Years ago I was stuck in a one bed flat with my OH and a 2 year old as there was no council housing, it had no dining room that could be classed as a bedroom and it was soo small you could only fit a 2 seater sofa in the front room. Was it fair we was forced to live like that when you have some people with 3-4 bed council houses and are only using one room 

The trouble was they should of built a **** load of 1-2bed flats/houses to offer people before implicating this sort tax !


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Not where we are. Its roughly the same..it differs by area.





emmaviolet said:


> Not anywhere in the country would you find a 3 bed house for rent of £100 per week.
> 
> Plus things like the boiler fixed by the council.
> 
> ...


Knowing roughly where HB lives, I had a quick look - for 3-bed houses they are averaging £110 - £120 per week.

So the difference is not that massive. A bit cheaper but not hugely so.

All in the name of fairness here.....


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

if these self serving w******s really wanted to cut the deficit rather than just f*** the poor they would legalise drugs. balancing the budget is that simple. But no, thats not party policy. party policy is to take from the poor and give to yourself.
i find it funny when i hear certain snobs in this thread calling other people scroungers who then later own up to not having a job themself and relying on their OH to bring in all the money... and if the OH were to leave them or to die or suffer an injury that meant they couldnt work then these same snobs would suddenly find themselves in a very different position... easy to sit in judgement though and kid yourself that something like that could never happen and that everyone in that position has brought it on themselves. disgusting proposal and equally disgusting posts in this thread (from certain members)


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> And who would look after her children? The state? Taxpayers again.
> 
> IMO Harleybeard has a job - bringing up her children.
> 
> ...


Harleybeard? Now come on mate...she shaves ffs hmy:

Afraid they are relying on the state to pay them tax credits.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> Knowing roughly where HB lives, I had a quick look - for 3-bed houses they are averaging £110 - £120 per week.
> 
> So the difference is not that massive. A bit cheaper but not hugely so.
> 
> All in the name of fairness here.....


So she could move into one of those houses and leave the council house for someone who needs it.....in fairness


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

harley bear said:


> I would much rather see council houses full of people who work than full of families who have no intention of working....and believe it or not when we moved here last year we were told by the council that we were given priority because my oh works.


Where an earth do you get the idea that most people dont want to work only a few come under that title most people out of work want a job and hate being on benefit,you said earlier they could go flipping burgers theres only so many burger flipping jobs and millions unemployed


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> And who would look after her children? The state? Taxpayers again.
> 
> IMO Harleybeard has a job - bringing up her children.
> 
> ...


I worked since before i left school..i was at school and i had 2 jobs..one after school in the evenings and another weekend job which by weekend i mean ALL weekend. 
I then went from those jobs to a full time job as soon as i left school and i worked from 8am-8pm monday to saturday and 10am-5pm sunday. Me and my oh worked the same hours in the same place for years together. 
I then became a SAHM im not going to apologize to anyone for wanting to look after my own children when they are pre school age and i make no apologies for living in a council house.

Like you say hun in my eyes i have a job and im there 247.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> And who would look after her children? The state? Taxpayers again.
> 
> IMO Harleybeard has a job - bringing up her children.
> 
> ...


I truth she has 3 children, so 3 lot's of child benefit, 3 lots of childrens education to be paid for by the government, tax credits, subsidised house, health care, i doubt the tax her husband pays covers that 



MoggyBaby said:


> Knowing roughly where HB lives, I had a quick look - for 3-bed houses they are averaging £110 - £120 per week.
> 
> So the difference is not that massive. A bit cheaper but not hugely so.
> 
> All in the name of fairness here.....


For some reason i thought it was 4


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> So she could move into one of those houses and leave the council house for someone who needs it.....in fairness


And why shouldnt we have it? Why should we move every 12 months when the landlord decides he wants to sell up or so on? Why does someone who cant be arsed to work deserve my house more than we do?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> I truth she has 3 children, so 3 lot's of child benefit, 3 lots of childrens education to be paid for by the government, tax credits, subsidised house, health care, i doubt the tax her husband pays covers that
> 
> For some reason i thought it was 4


So are your kids home educated or state educated? You get healthcare too...doubt your taxes cover that either


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

harley bear said:


> I worked since before i left school..i was at school and i had 2 jobs..one after school in the evenings and another weekend job which by weekend i mean ALL weekend.
> I then went from those jobs to a full time job as soon as i left school and i worked from 8am-8pm monday to saturday and 10am-5pm sunday. Me and my oh worked the same hours in the same place for years together.
> I then became a SAHM im not going to apologize to anyone for wanting to look after my own children when they are pre school age and i make no apologies for living in a council house.
> 
> Like you say hun in my eyes i have a job and im there 247.


Noone is condemning you. But being a SAHM is an absolute luxury these days and it really shouldnt be. I believe that if a mum wishes to remain at home and raise her family then that is fine but the husband should earn enough to support them all. Yours doesn't you claim credits. You are in the same boat HB...not condemning you hun . Disabled single parents are being harrassed to look for work so why shouldn't SAHM's look for work too?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

harley bear said:


> So are your kids home educated or state educated? You get healthcare too...doubt your taxes cover that either


Trust me hubs tax does 

I'm not saying it's wrong that you get those things but don't think you pay for everybody else as it prob don't cover what you take back


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

PORPS - by snobs, do you mean those of us who live within a certain budget that allows one of us to work and the other to bring up the children full time? Then, when the children are off our hands choose to look for a part-time job?

I live in a very modest house and lead a very modest life. Only by doing that was I able to give up work after 15 years to be a full time mother. We have always supported ourselves. The only benefit we receive is child benefit for our one child, who is still at school. Personally, I don't see why anyone should get child benefit, but as my husband pays for it through his tax why should we not have it?

I don't think that makes me a snob, nor can I think of any reason why I should be criticised either  

If you are not referring to me, then my bad


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> Noone is condemning you. But being a SAHM is an absolute luxury these days and it really shouldnt be. I believe that if a mum wishes to remain at home and raise her family then that is fine but the husband should earn enough to support them all. Yours doesn't you claim credits. You are in the same boat HB...not condemning you hun . Disabled single parents are being harrassed to look for work so why shouldn't SAHM's look for work too?





Pointermum said:


> Trust me hubs tax does


So your oh pays at least 20k tax per year to cover all your health bills, schooling and everything else hmmmm


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lavenderb said:


> Harleybeard? Now come on mate...she shaves ffs hmy:
> 
> Afraid they are relying on the state to pay them tax credits.


Ooops - typo 

Tax credits are paid to those that qualify - should she just not take them? They are paid for out of the taxes that her husband pays.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

harley bear said:


> So your oh pays at least 20k tax per year to cover all your health bills, schooling and everything else hmmmm





> The statistics, published alongside school league table data , show that the average secondary school spent more than £5,200 per pupil last year, while the average primary paid out £4,284.


Yes paid a LOT more that this x the 2 children we have .


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

not many sit at a dining table to eat nowadays, we havent got a dining room so im not bothered...


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> PORPS - by snobs, do you mean those of us who live within a certain budget that allows one of us to work and the other to bring up the children full time? Then, when the children are off our hands choose to look for a part-time job?


abosutely not. i mean those who look down their noses at people less well off them, and judge them solely on the fact that they are claiming benefits despite not knowing anything of their situation beyond that one fact. Snobbery has nothing to do with income and everything to do with how you percieve and treat those less well off than you.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> Noone is condemning you. But being a SAHM is an absolute luxury these days and it really shouldnt be. I believe that if a mum wishes to remain at home and raise her family then that is fine but the husband should earn enough to support them all. Yours doesn't you claim credits. You are in the same boat HB...not condemning you hun . *Disabled single parents are being harrassed to look for work so why shouldn't SAHM's look for work too?*


But HB already has a full-time wage earner in her home. By staying at home, she ensures that another family also has a full-time wage earner in their home.

The argument works both ways - how many mothers are working who actually don't need to because their other halfs earn more than enough to support their families. Two people working in one household could mean no people working in another.

I'm just playing devils advocate here and believe that if folks want to work, then they should, but there is also the matter of wanting to work and NEEDING to work.

Someone working because they WANT to may well be depriving someone else working because they NEED to.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> Ooops - typo
> 
> Tax credits are paid to those that qualify - should she just not take them? They are paid for out of the taxes that her husband pays.


not exactly, he pays in, she draws out.....but its not HIS tax dollar she gets


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

what if you take the dining table out of the dining room, do you still get taxed? what if you say its an office? or a workshop? What if you remove the door and dividing wall and just have a big lounge do you still get taxed?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> Ooops - typo
> 
> Tax credits are paid to those that qualify - should she just not take them? They are paid for out of the taxes that her husband pays.


Benefits are paid to those that qualify...should they not just take them? They are paid for out of the taxes that I have previously paid into the system when I was working.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

porps said:


> what if you take the dining table out of the dining room, do you still get taxed? what if you say its an office? or a workshop? What if you remove the door and dividing wall and just have a big lounge do you still get taxed?


What about all those with lounge/kitchen diners??

Are they going to come around and draw a line across the room and say sorry you cannot use that bit, please dont cross the line.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> Benefits are paid to those that qualify...should they not just take them? They are paid for out of the taxes that I have previously paid into the system when I was working.


Not always..i know of plenty who havent worked a day in their lives to pay for what they are taking out.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Pointermum said:


> I truth she has 3 children, so 3 lot's of child benefit, 3 lots of childrens education to be paid for by the government, tax credits, subsidised house, health care, i doubt the tax her husband pays covers that


Well, my OH and I have worked since 17 and are now early 50's. We only have 1 child, so we have put in plenty of tax and I could argue that my one child has not cost the state as much as we have paid in, so should I have a rebate? My sister has worked all her life and has no children  Actually, we will gladly donate our "unused" share to Harleybear to even up the scales


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I think this is going off track as always :lol:

I've know my mum friends YEARS back was told if there was a dining room in the house this would be counted as a bedroom , i'm talking 15-20 years ago. She was in 2 bed rented with a girl and a boy who got to the age where they legally couldn't share. 

So as part of the "bedroom" tax this doesn't surprise me. 

I think it's disgraceful they said people was entitled to x bedrooms and now it's no the kids have to share and change all the age goalposts BUT people who's kids have left home and they now have 3/4/5 bed houses with 1 or maybe no kids then yes it's a good idea.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> Well, my OH and I have worked since 17 and are now early 50's. We only have 1 child, so we have put in plenty of tax and I could argue that my one child has not cost the state as much as we have paid in, so should I have a rebate? My sister has worked all her life and has no children  Actually, we will gladly donate our "unused" share to Harleybear to even up the scales


Thats ok hun, trust me the amount of tax me and oh have put into the pot is more than enough to cover what we are 'scrounging' out :lol:


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## dogs body (Mar 11, 2013)

i can see why its not necessary room, I am sure many families with smaller homes would love an extra room to put stuff in


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

porps said:


> abosutely not. i mean those who look down their noses at people less well off them, and judge them solely on the fact that they are claiming benefits despite not knowing anything of their situation beyond that one fact. Snobbery has nothing to do with income and everything to do with how you percieve and treat those less well off than you.


I don't look down my nose at people just because they are less well off than me, nor because they are on benefits. Of course we all make sweeping judgements when the subject of benefits etc. come up because we don't know everyone's situation. But we have all stated that we have no issue with people in genuine need, only those that do not. And we all have to admit that they exist and there are far too many.

Unfortunately, the current economic climate has clouded the water, because so many people who have always provided for themselves, now find they cannot and are having to rely on the state.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

porps said:


> abosutely not. i mean those who look down their noses at people less well off them, and* judge them solely on the fact that they are claiming benefits despite not knowing anything of their situation beyond that one fact*. Snobbery has nothing to do with income and everything to do with how you percieve and treat those less well off than you.


Let face it, their are MANY people about recently it appears that are very judgmental of anyone claiming benefit. Some people are very deserving of them IMO


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> Well, my OH and I have worked since 17 and are now early 50's. We only have 1 child, so we have put in plenty of tax and I could argue that my one child has not cost the state as much as we have paid in, so should I have a rebate? My sister has worked all her life and has no children  Actually, we will gladly donate our "unused" share to Harleybear to even up the scales


I've have no issue with what HB gets , we got tax credits in the past and would of loved a council house back in the day. But it's the we don't take anything we put more in that i disagree with  Of course it's the ones with no children that will always take the least out . I am hoping my well raised children will contribute more to society than they have taken out in the end :smilewinkgrin:

If hubs walked out on me tomorrow i would be bu**ered , I think everyone has no problem with genuine people who end up there but the people who chose it as a lifestyle choice are the issue !


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> I think this is going off track as always :lol:
> 
> *I've know my mum friends YEARS back was told if there was a dining room in the house this would be counted as a bedroom ,* i'm talking 15-20 years ago. She was in 2 bed rented with a girl and a boy who got to the age where they legally couldn't share.
> 
> So as part of the "bedroom" tax this doesn't surprise me.


Thankfully I own my home because they would have a hard job making my 'dining room' into a bedroom!!

I have an old terraced house with no downstairs hallway. The front door opens into the lounge which then goes through to the dining room then the kitchen then the loo.

The door to go upstairs is in the dining room. There is no way anyone could be expected to sleep in it as there would be no form of privacy whatsoever. Even a wee-wee trip in the night means going into the dining room due to it being a downstairs loo!!!

Mind you, I'm sure there is a wee jobsworth somewhere who would still insist it could be used as a bedroom. 

There, that's brought the thread right back on track!!! :thumbup:


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> *Getting a job and then paying someone else to look after your child makes no sense to me. Not something I would ever have considered. *
> 
> The problem with the tax credit system is that IMO it is badly set up. The council house system is also flawed. But, it's all very well expecting people to turn down what they are entitled to in order to give it to someone else, but that is never going to happen is it?
> 
> ...


That's lucky for you. Some people don't have a choice. I have had to work and pay for child care even when it didnt make much extra


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ClaireLouise said:


> That's lucky for you. Some people don't have a choice. I have had to work and pay for child care even when it didnt make much extra


No it wasn't lucky for me - I made sacrifices to be able to do it. I didn't have my child until I was in a position to be able to do it. I planned it that way.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Getting a job and then paying someone else to look after your child makes no sense to me. .


well for one thing it would create employment for the people caring for your children while you do your work meaning less people would be forced to "scrounge" benefits..

not that i think its sensible or anything... thought just popped into my head


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Im torn with this for 1 main reason.

One one hand, if you are in a council house, and have your rent paid for you, then I agree surplus rooms should not be subsidised by the council - move to a smaller house. 
Those that pay their own rent, rent within their means. I do not have a place big enough for a dining table at all, let along a whole room dedicated to dining simply because that size accomodationis out of my price range. The same logic should apply to benefits - you are given what you NEED, not what you need "plus a little"

HOWEVER, I do not agree that a dining room = a bedroom - if you have a young family I think a dining table is an important feature. TV Dinners arent condusive to family life IMO.
Also, saying kids <10 can share is stupid - you will only need to move when they get >10 and by the point you could be looking at having to move schools etc due to catchment areas?!?
If you have 2 kids, a 3 bed house is reasonable. If you have 0 kids, imo a 3bed house is not; not when there are plenty of families needing these homes and stuck in shoeboxes! 
I know people living at their parents with 2 kids cos they couldnt get a council house/flat!!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> No it wasn't lucky for me - I made sacrifices to be able to do it. I didn't have my child until I was in a position to be able to do it. I planned it that way.


So you planned that during this time no one would be made redundant or suffer ill health


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

porps said:


> well for one thing it would create employment for the people caring for your children while you do your work meaning less people would be forced to "scrounge" benefits..
> 
> not that i think its sensible or anything... thought just popped into my head




I don't want a stranger looking after my child.

You're right it's not sensible 

Now I have to go and place some ads in the local papers for a gardener, cleaner, decorator, driver, childminder, dogsitter/walker, window cleaner, car mechanic, landscaper, housekeeper 

Blimey, I need to earn a lot in my new job to pay all these people's salaries


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## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

Just a thought those on benefits being expected to pay extra for the extra room they don't need out of their benefit,who is going to pay for the house move? and where are all the smaller houses?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

skip said:


> Just a thought those on benefits being expected to pay extra for the extra room they don't need out of their benefit,who is going to pay for the house move? and where are all the smaller houses?


The council pay up to £2000 i think for you do downgrade so they can have the house back.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ClaireLouise said:


> So you planned that during this time no one would be made redundant or suffer ill health


Well my husband WAS made redundant one week before my son was born  He worked evenings in the local pub to make ends meet until he found another job.

He had problems with his heart and had 2 stents fitted. Back to work.

Made redundant again, 2 weeks before he would have been entitled to redundancy pay. Got Jobseekers allowance for about 3 weeks and then started a new job.

Then had heart bypass surgery 2 years ago. Back to work when he was recovered.

And your point is?


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> I don't want a stranger looking after my child.
> 
> You're right it's not sensible
> 
> ...


whats confusing?

there are too many people on benefits
there are not enough jobs
there are many stay at home mums. 
if more of those mums choose to work and then pay for childcare it would create more child care jobs (and take 2 people off benefits)
more jobs = less people on benefits.

still confused? like i said its not how i think it should be i'm just pointing out one potential benefit (though likely YOU would just be working more seeing your kids less and coming out with a similar amount of cash)


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## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

They have a get out clause, we down graded from a three bed to a two and were told as the demands were equally as high for both 2 and 3 bedrooms there would be no financial assistance to help with costs.

Edited to add- we donot receive any benefits but the council said that we would still qualify for thelp with the cost of moving to a smaller home


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

porps said:


> whats confusing?
> 
> there are too many people on benefits
> there are not enough jobs
> ...


What about the households where 2 people are working? If more parents took care of the kids themselves then how many jobs would that create!

Oh and BTW alot of childcare is paid for by childcare vouchers given by the government to the workplace so the parents can get discounted childcare..all being paid out of the government pot.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> harley bear said:
> 
> 
> > JANICE199 said:
> ...


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

harley bear said:


> What about the households where 2 people are working? If more parents took care of the kids themselves then how many jobs would that create!
> 
> Oh and BTW alot of childcare is paid for by childcare vouchers given by the government to the workplace so the parents can get discounted childcare..all being paid out of the government pot.


I think that some voucher are are often a contribution from employer and an amount stopped out of the persons wage


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> JANICE199 said:
> 
> 
> > harley bear said:
> ...


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

ClaireLouise said:


> I think the voucher are are often a contribution from employer and an amount stopped out of the persons wage


Yes they pay for the vouchers out the wage but its at a reduced rate which is made up by the government. Its reduced by about 40% i think (or it was when i was offered it at work)


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

porps said:


> whats confusing?
> 
> there are too many people on benefits
> there are not enough jobs
> ...


I'm confused because you seem to be implying that I have been claiming benefits whilst being a stay at home mum. I have not claimed benefits in order to be a stay at home mum. My family is self-supporting.

My family situation has absolutely no impact on the benefits system nor on the job market.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

What is the one thing that is guaranteed to happen with the bedroom/dining room tax. A baby boom!
People will be having more children just so they can stay in their house, surely the government wallys can see that?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> harley bear said:
> 
> 
> > JANICE199 said:
> ...


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

ClaireLouise said:


> I think that some voucher are are often a contribution from employer and an amount stopped out of the persons wage


They are - I think the guys here have said it works out pretty expensive for them to get the vouchers - they have to pay x amount, its hardly "free" money - its an incentive to get people back to work. I think its a tax saving, rather than government contribution. You buy the vouchers BEFORE tax, so then when it comes to the taxman making his cut, your are paying less tax overall. (ie you earn £900, pay £50 towards childcare, so you pay tax on £850 (tax £35ish) instead of £900 (tax £45 ish) a saving of £10)


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Yes they pay for the vouchers out the wage but its at a reduced rate which is made up by the government. Its reduced by about 40% i think (or it was when i was offered it at work)


I did look into them years ago but they made next to no difference so paid the cost myself


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> harley bear said:
> 
> 
> > JANICE199 said:
> ...


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> What is the one thing that is guaranteed to happen with the bedroom/dining room tax. A baby boom!
> People will be having more children just so they can stay in their house, surely the government wallys can see that?


I think the new rules is the youngest has to be 10 years old not have to share a room , no upper age limit to the age of child they would share with  i may be wrong :lol:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Pointermum said:


> J
> I don't think anyone begrudge anyone help if the [B said:
> 
> 
> ...


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Blimey glad I own my own house I have a dining room and 3 spare bedrooms they would be putting me in a bedsitterhmy:


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> I'm confused because you seem to be implying that I have been claiming benefits whilst being a stay at home mum. I have not claimed benefits in order to be a stay at home mum. My family is self-supporting.
> 
> My family situation has absolutely no impact on the benefits system nor on the job market.


i honestly have no idea how you have read that into what i wrote.You said that you saw no sense in working and paying someone to look after your children, i was just pointing out one possible benefit that could come from it. If you wanna get defensive and start reading things that werent written thats entirely your perogative but i assure you it was not my intention.

stop taking everything personally, you are not the centre of the universe, everything isnt always about you.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ClaireLouise said:


> What a strange comment
> 
> Of course you would expect the father to look after his children in such tragic circumstances and you would expect the welfare system to help him to do so, if needed.
> 
> A quite high proportion of my husband's salary is spent on Life Insurance, Critical Illness Cover, Mortgate Protection, etc. which would hopefully provide for our family should something terrible happen. That may or may not be adequate, but we have done our best to provide for it.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> Pointermum said:
> 
> 
> > *The truth is, the media and the government want us to believe the majority on benefits don't want to work.
> ...


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> What a strange comment
> 
> Of course you would expect the father to look after his children in such tragic circumstances and you would expect the welfare system to help him to do so, if needed.
> 
> A quite high proportion of my husband's salary is spent on Life Insurance, Critical Illness Cover, Mortgate Protection, etc. which would hopefully provide for our family should something terrible happen. That may or may not be adequate, but we have done our best to provide for it.


How is it strange! We were talking about changes in personal circumstances


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

suewhite said:


> If you think I am letting HB lose with a bag of spuds your wrong:001_tt1::001_tt1:


actually scrap that. Ive got my landlord coming tomorrow to serve me with a possession of property notice because my rent is now in arrears since I no longer receive esa and have been signed off as unfit for work by my gp so I cannot claim Job seekers either....so I will be needing somewhere to live shortly....I'm happy to bunk up with you Sue lol....stupid thing is my landlord paid out a large sum towards my disabled wet room and chairlift grant and now they are threatening to boot me and the kids out onto the street...wheres the sense in that?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

porps said:


> i honestly have no idea how you have read that into what i wrote.You said that you saw no sense in working and paying someone to look after your children, i was just pointing out one possible benefit that could come from it. If you wanna get defensive and start reading things that werent written thats entirely your perogative but i assure you it was not my intention.
> 
> stop taking everything personally, you are not the centre of the universe, everything isnt always about you.


Well I'm obviously not getting what it is you are trying to say 

I'm only taking things personally when they appear to refer to me and appear to be wrong - not that bothered though, just trying to make my point clear. I don't think I am the centre of the universe btw  And the point you were referring to was about me


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> actually scrap that. Ive got my landlord coming tomorrow to serve me with a possession of property notice because my rent is now in arrears since I no longer receive esa and have been signed off as unfit for work by my gp so I cannot claim Job seekers either....so I will be needing somewhere to live shortly....I'm happy to bunk up with you Sue lol....stupid thing is my landlord paid out a large sum towards my disabled wet room and chairlift grant and now they are threatening to boot me and the kids out onto the street...wheres the sense in that?


Lavs are you serious?:crying:


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ClaireLouise said:


> How is it strange! We were talking about changes in personal circumstances


"But I guess they should have seen that coming" was the comment I was referring to. It seemed to be rather sarcastic and with an ulterior motive


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Well I'm obviously not getting what it is you are trying to say
> 
> I'm only taking things personally when they appear to refer to me and appear to be wrong - not that bothered though, just trying to make my point clear. I don't think I am the centre of the universe btw  And the point you were referring to was about me


it was _in response_ to you if thats what you mean.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*As Cameron once said, " we are all in this together ".. Don't turn on each other.
Aim your frustrations at him and his government. There but for the grace of god go i, comes to mind.*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

phew!!!! just trawled through all this and tbh honest all this tax credits and ime entitled to it because i stay at home and look after my children while hubby works the word "entitled" seems to me this can be used to justify, just about anything these days. Now ime not ancient but when i had my children you stayed at home to look after your own children for "free" no choice because other than the child benefit there wasnt such a thing as the "wonderful tax credit" how did people live before all this, i should know because i did, so why the need for it, this is not a go at anyone ime genuinely interested to find out are these tax credits replacing something else that maybe i got and didnt know about.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> phew!!!! just trawled through all this and tbh honest all this tax credits and ime entitled to it because i stay at home and look after my children while hubby works the word "entitled" seems to me this can be used to justify, just about anything these days. Now ime not ancient but when i had my children you stayed at home to look after your own children for "free" no choice because other than the child benefit there wasnt such a thing as the "wonderful tax credit" how did people live before all this, i should know because i did, so why the need for it, this is not a go at anyone ime genuinely interested to find out are these tax credits replacing something else that maybe i got and didnt know about.


*I understand more women need to work these days to get any where. But having said that, i do believe kids are better off with a parent being at home for them.
Having said that, firstly i think people should put having kids on hold until they have sorted out their housing needs,and careers first.
I don't think its right or fair others should pay for child care.*
eta. yes i've got my tin hat ready.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I understand more women need to work these days to get any where. But having said that, i do believe kids are better off with a parent being at home for them.
> Having said that, firstly i think people should put having kids on hold until they have sorted out their housing needs,and careers first.
> I don't think its right or fair others should pay for child care.*
> eta. yes i've got my tin hat ready.


I havnt got a problem with mums going out to work, far from it but it does amuse me when they mention tax credits and entitlement, entitled to something because they are bringing up their own children. I may be completely wrong but thats how it comes across to me.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> actually scrap that. Ive got my landlord coming tomorrow to serve me with a possession of property notice because my rent is now in arrears since I no longer receive esa and have been signed off as unfit for work by my gp so I cannot claim Job seekers either....so I will be needing somewhere to live shortly....I'm happy to bunk up with you Sue lol....stupid thing is my landlord paid out a large sum towards my disabled wet room and chairlift grant and now they are threatening to boot me and the kids out onto the street...wheres the sense in that?


   

OMG Lavs.............. There are no words to describe how awful this is......  

I really wish I was in a position to give you some help. :crying:

How the hell can they stop your assistance if the doc has signed you off??? Where the f*ck is the logic in that???? :cursing:

Big hugs girl.
xxx


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> OMG Lavs.............. There are no words to describe how awful this is......
> 
> I really wish I was in a position to give you some help. :crying:
> 
> ...


^^^^
This, don't really know what else to say, shocking!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Lavenderb said:


> actually scrap that. Ive got my landlord coming tomorrow to serve me with a possession of property notice because my rent is now in arrears since I no longer receive esa and have been signed off as unfit for work by my gp so I cannot claim Job seekers either....so I will be needing somewhere to live shortly....I'm happy to bunk up with you Sue lol....stupid thing is my landlord paid out a large sum towards my disabled wet room and chairlift grant and now they are threatening to boot me and the kids out onto the street...wheres the sense in that?


*OMG Lb...i'm so sorry to read you are caught up in this crap..For once i'm lost for words hon. I can't for the life of me understand how money can be thrown away in one breath, but in the next we are told to tighten our belts.*


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

suewhite said:


> Blimey glad I own my own house I have a dining room and 3 spare bedrooms they would be putting me in a bedsitterhmy:


.
*You know full well Sue...and I shall put it on here for all to see.Should you ever find yourself homeless,there is always a place here...*for your canaries!

.

.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> Dining rooms may be taxed | The Sunday Times
> 
> DINING rooms, praised by the government as crucial to family cohesion, may become subject to David Camerons controversial bedroom tax. Councils will be allowed to classify dining rooms as bedrooms for the purposes of the new tax, which comes into force next month.
> 
> ...


Toilet Tax I shouldnt wonder as in everytime you go. Getting beyond a joke now.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Would just like to add..If anyone has someone that needs care around the clock, the bedroom tax shouldn't apply to the new rules. ( yes i know the bedroom tax was not the subject).*


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

poohdog said:


> .
> *You know full well Sue...and I shall put it on here for all to see.Should you ever find yourself homeless,there is always a place here...
> 
> Aww!!! thank you Pooh:dita::001_wub:
> ...


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

suewhite said:


> The joke was on me and was I offended NO!!! for goodness sake how can a spud cause offence,I am more worried Lavs than anyone else at the moment.


I get that, now that it's been explained. But you have to admit that to anyone who wasn't in on the original joke (and it seems that HB was not) it does seem a pretty nasty thing to say, especially after what had gone before.

And still going on .......................


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Surely anyone who gets child allowance is getting benefits, and that's another one that gets up my nose, if you can't afford them don't have them, why should we pay for them.


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## CharleyRogan (Feb 20, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> Dining rooms may be taxed | The Sunday Times
> 
> DINING rooms, praised by the government as crucial to family cohesion, may become subject to David Camerons controversial bedroom tax. Councils will be allowed to classify dining rooms as bedrooms for the purposes of the new tax, which comes into force next month.
> 
> ...


I can understand the bedroom tax because other families who need the space would be better suited to these properties, but taxing diningrooms is a bit ridiculous!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CharleyRogan said:


> I can understand the bedroom tax because other families who need the space would be better suited to these properties, but taxing diningrooms is a bit ridiculous!


*Charley if all the people that give up their houses it will NOT make any difference.
The reason, because there is not enough 1 or 2 bedroom properties available.*


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

suewhite said:


> Lavs are you serious?:crying:


Yes Sue totally. Been found fit for work even though my GP has said I'm not. My helpful landlord has to stick to their 'procedures' apparently 

so I will come and bunk up with you...I hope you dont mind kids and ferrets lol.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> Yes Sue totally. Been found fit for work even though my GP has said I'm not. My helpful landlord has to stick to their 'procedures' apparently
> 
> so I will come and bunk up with you...I hope you dont mind kids and ferrets lol.


Lavs you kids and ferrets could come and bunk at ours,you are a classic example of this government and some people talking through the ar$es:wink:


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

dogs body said:


> i can see why its not necessary room, I am sure many families with smaller homes would love an extra room to put stuff in


I still like to sit around the dining table for dinner , whether its just me , me and a friend or family when they visit , so for me a dining room is a neccessity (sp?)

Its just as much a time for socialising as it is for eating ... something sadly lacking in most families these days


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

Tamsin W said:


> And is there a reason why they're exempt from either a) get a job, or b) make money from home?
> 
> If they're subject to bedroom 'tax' (not a tax), stands to reason they have space that isn't necessary in their home. Obviously they're not in a position to sub-let if they're in social housing, but I don't think there's any reason why they can't use something like Storemates and offer storage:
> 
> ...


Wow I'm glad not everyone thinks like you. I live with my mum who is old enough to live on a pension, I'm on job seekers as since finishing uni I havent been able to find even a part time job, Ive resorted to looking for cleaners jobs now. Not everyone on benefits wants to be, I'd rather be working, earning a decent wage and have my own place rather than having to stay at home.

Sorry off topic I know, but just to add... bedroom tax is rediculous


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

MoggyBaby said:


> The last thing we need is them getting inspiration from the past................


It's exactly what "Conservative" means.


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Re-opened after some pruning.

Keep it on track and civil please.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

westie~ma said:


> Re-opened after some pruning.
> 
> Keep it on track and civil please.


*Thank you for reopening westie.*


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Thank you for reopening westie.*


You are very welcome Janice


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

harley bear said:


> People on benefits get a credit from their energy company every winter £50 for gas and the same for electric.
> A dining room aint a bedroom but there are alot of people who are on long term benefits who cant be bothered to get off their lazy @rses and support their families!
> 
> I know of one family who was on disability...all of a sudden the the month before the tax comes in they are in work  the hilarious thing is they think they are gonna be soooooo much better off as they will be earning DOUBLE the benefits per week! Phaaaa yeah then you take ALL your bills, rent, ctax and everything out after that and your better off screwing the system!
> ...


The problem with this is that a lot of people are better off on benefits and jobs are scarce. I work for a welfare to work programme and a lot of our guys would bite a right arm off for even the crappiest job that pays the crappiest wage so they can support their family but when you have over one hundred people applying for the same job you'll be lucky if you will be that person to be successful.

I agree that some people do not want to work (We have clients like that) and I do not like laziness but we shouldn't really have a pop at these people who enjoy staying on benefits but shout at the government instead who give this money out like it is sweets. At the end of the day, I am happy to give my money to a family who are claiminig benefits if they are genuinely wanting to look for work and are having difficulty. I don't want people too starve but what I cannot stand is people who claim disability allowance when they can easily work. Have a client like that. On disability allowance and ESA and when he comes in for his appointments it has to be on the ground floor as said client cannnot access stairs due to bad hip and leg and requires a walking stick

Funny thing, I have seen this client when I am outside of work with his children and I have seen him run, walk and...whoa, no walking stick. It's a miracle.

Brought this to the attention fo the employment coach but without evidence what can you do..

It's sad people abuse the system like that and then they moan why prices go up....We all know the government are a waste of space with most things and couldn't organise a p** up in a brewery let alone get a coutry in order.

End of rant.


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

Boadicea1 said:


> The problem with this is that a lot of people are better off on benefits and jobs are scarce. I work for a welfare to work programme and a lot of our guys would bite a right arm off for even the crappiest job that pays the crappiest wage so they can support their family but when you have over one hundred people applying for the same job you'll be lucky if you will be that person to be successful.
> 
> I agree that some people do not want to work (We have clients like that) and I do not like laziness but we shouldn't really have a pop at these people who enjoy staying on benefits but shout at the government instead who give this money out like it is sweets. At the end of the day, I am happy to give my money to a family who are claiminig benefits if they are genuinely wanting to look for work and are having difficulty. I don't want people too starve but what I cannot stand is people who claim disability allowance when they can easily work. Have a client like that. On disability allowance and ESA and when he comes in for his appointments it has to be on the ground floor as said client cannnot access stairs due to bad hip and leg and requires a walking stick
> 
> ...


This is why I - despite being told I should give up work by the Dr. still work and don't claim disability - I have had to buy stuff to help me and drop my hours to do so - because I don't look disabled and it's not worth the grief of people going 'Well she don't look disabled'.

My condition is rare, is very painful and flares in intensity. It can be better on some days than others and I can manage things like clean the windows or the car or enjoy a day out, or swim - but it knocks me up for three to four days after - no sleep, constant pain that strong meds that won't even take the shine off. What people don't see is me at four am on day three of no sleep, already maxed out on meds and unable to breathe properly, having my husband get me undressed washed and hair done.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

fierceabby said:


> This is why I - despite being told I should give up work by the Dr. still work and don't claim disability - I have had to buy stuff to help me and drop my hours to do so - because I don't look disabled and it's not worth the grief of people going 'Well she don't look disabled'.
> 
> My condition is rare, is very painful and flares in intensity. It can be better on some days than others and I can manage things like clean the windows or the car or enjoy a day out, or swim - but it knocks me up for three to four days after - no sleep, constant pain that strong meds that won't even take the shine off. What people don't see is me at four am on day three of no sleep, already maxed out on meds and unable to breathe properly, having my husband get me undressed washed and hair done.


If you truly are sick then you should not be working and should claim DA. It's just the people who have nothing wrong with them and get around the loop and find a way to claim this that it is Totally unfair. Not fair on working people paying for people to have a long extended holiday from work.

If you truly cannot work, fine. I have no problem with this or people who are on benefits and are looking for work. What are they meant to do - Starve. I'd do the exact same thing if it was me.

Just the ones who abuse the system get to me that's all.


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

Boadicea1 said:


> If you truly are sick then you should not be working and should claim DA. It's just the people who have nothing wrong with them and get around the loop and find a way to claim this that it is Totally unfair. Not fair on working people paying for people to have a long extended holiday from work.
> 
> If you truly cannot work, fine. I have no problem with this or people who are on benefits and are looking for work. What are they meant to do - Starve. I'd do the exact same thing if it was me.
> 
> Just the ones who abuse the system get to me that's all.


I was supposed to be off 9 months after my last op - I was back in five weeks because I honestly was going mad with boredom!!! Jeremy Kyle show? Antiques? Property? It's all that's on....!!

One woman I used to work with decided - yes decided - she was stressed from bullying. She jumped on the back of someone elses genuine complaint - and she used to laugh in private to me about how she was 'playing the game' would get signed off for stress in ten week stretches, then boast to me about how much fun she was having on her time off and how as soon as she walked in to work for 'back to work' meetings to help her back in slowly - and the bully had been sacked by this point - she laughed about how she could put the shakes on and make herself cry.

She couldn't work out why I 'dumped' her as a friend.....


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

fierceabby said:


> I was supposed to be off 9 months after my last op - I was back in five weeks because I honestly was going mad with boredom!!! Jeremy Kyle show? Antiques? Property? It's all that's on....!!
> 
> One woman I used to work with decided - yes decided - she was stressed from bullying. She jumped on the back of someone elses genuine complaint - and she used to laugh in private to me about how she was 'playing the game' would get signed off for stress in ten week stretches, then boast to me about how much fun she was having on her time off and how as soon as she walked in to work for 'back to work' meetings to help her back in slowly - and the bully had been sacked by this point - she laughed about how she could put the shakes on and make herself cry.
> 
> She couldn't work out why I 'dumped' her as a friend.....


Yes, it is horribly boring when you don't work. When I finished college I went straight to looking for work and application after application...Nothing. One or two interviews but always never got the job. I never had the money to do anything so I just spent my time in bed watching TV. I was miserable...I was sick of my life and that it wasn't going anywhere...For me, it's not just the money when I work. It makes me appreciate the free time I have a little bit more.

Jeremy Kyle - Good lord, you must have been desperate....Though it is good to watch for a good laugh. 

That's awful. Though if this person was bullying her then they did deserve to be dismissed but to continue with that behaviour. Do you keep in contact with her at all? Would like to know if she is still in that job.

What makes my blood bouil the most is that my ex friend has never worked, has never been to college and dropped out of school at 14. She makes my blood boil that she doesn't want to work and when interviews are offered to her (Because JC have made her apply for something) she never turns up or says she forgot the time. She once had a job offered to her, went there for an hour and walked out. And then another job was offered and she turned it down...This is bang out of order and disgusting for those people who have children to support and would jump at the chance of a job. She and I are no longer friends anymore...Not because she doesn't want to do anything with her life but because of her attitude with everything and everyone.

She is the sort of lady who wants to marrya rich guy and sit at home being lazy whilst he works and throws notes on her lap. Sickening...

I mean nothing wrong with marrying a rich guy (JK) but just grrrrr..

If people don't want to do anything with their life that is their choice but they don't deserve benefits as a reward and the disgust of turning down jobs...

You, my dear, should be claiming DA though. But kudos with your choices...I'd claim though if it were me ill.


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

Boadicea1 said:


> Yes, it is horribly boring when you don't work. When I finished college I went straight to looking for work and application after application...Nothing. One or two interviews but always never got the job. I never had the money to do anything so I just spent my time in bed watching TV. I was miserable...I was sick of my life and that it wasn't going anywhere...For me, it's not just the money when I work. It makes me appreciate the free time I have a little bit more.
> 
> Jeremy Kyle - Good lord, you must have been desperate....Though it is good to watch for a good laugh.
> 
> ...


The bully was sacked, because she was a team leader and was breaking confidentiality on what happened in disciplinaries, borrowing machines from
Work but never returning them, singling out girls and shouting across a 60 person office about their boobs or whatever. She was awful. 
And the other one, went on to get a new job somewhere else - the job I knew her from in the end gave her a pay off to leave I heard.... Because others had a genuine constructive dismissal case going on she put a claim in for that.....


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Too many have taken too much for too long, the system is its own worst enemy with poor checking and dysfunctional systems that dont communicate

watch "Saints and Scroungers" to be amazed

(the French woman getting JSA+HB in London, and also in Paris...that was a good one)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01r6pc0/Saints_and_Scroungers_Series_4_Wright_Bibic_Smith/


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Too many have taken too much for too long, the system is its own worst enemy with poor checking and dysfunctional systems that dont communicate
> 
> watch "Saints and Scroungers" to be amazed
> 
> ...


*And most of the taking has been by the rich.*


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

It's such a huge thing to sort out, I don't envy any government having to sort it out. 
There are genuine people who need more help, people taking way more than they should, people too scared to claim because they don't want the stigma and associated bad-mouthing, people unaware they can claim when they are struggling on etc etc

I mean it would be nice if everyone was given a council house with electricity and water included but the only place I can think of that does that is North Korea...... :scared:

It's got into such a mess I don't know how they could ever solve it - someone would sue them within five minutes for something, or the ones who don't want to work would possibly turn to crime ....


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

fierceabby said:


> It's such a huge thing to sort out, I don't envy any government having to sort it out.
> There are genuine people who need more help, people taking way more than they should, people too scared to claim because they don't want the stigma and associated bad-mouthing, people unaware they can claim when they are struggling on etc etc
> 
> I mean it would be nice if everyone was given a council house with electricity and water included but the only place I can think of that does that is North Korea...... :scared:
> ...


*Mind you, if you break the law and go to prison, you will get all of the above plus 3 hot meals a day.*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

just popped in to check everyones playing nicely.......... 


seem to be..


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Mind you, if you break the law and go to prison, you will get all of the above plus 3 hot meals a day.*


lol yeh, and for the real kinky, they even have the option of BDSM prison style :lol:


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I am not saying all but a lot of council flats that the government want tenants to down size to are horrible and the people that live in them now hate it,what the government wants to do before they come up with half baked ideas is get there heads out there backsides, and build some descent appealing smaller properties then a lot of elderly folk would be happy to move from there 3 bed houses and save money on bills like leccy give them a small garden not a square bloke covered in graffiti,and living like battery chickens:sad:


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

CRL said:


> whats that for a 3 bed house? whoopty doo. i pay that a week for a one bed flat.


(It's prob best not to go down that road....specifics like...... since le prunage of the thread like...   :thumbsup: )


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *Mind you, if you break the law and go to prison, you will get all of the above plus 3 hot meals a day.*


Best comment yet.

Sickening we pay for these scumbags to have a luxurious lifestyle.

'That's okay, I'll kill these people. What can go so wrong? I will be living in a 5* hotel for the rest of my life after this. Bliss'


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

CRL said:


> whats that for a 3 bed house? whoopty doo. i pay that a week for a one bed flat.


We should be so lucky.....

In a reasonable part of town:


> £850 pcm
> 
> 1 bedroom apartment to rent


"Rough" part of town 


> £675 pcm
> 
> 1 bedroom flat to rent


Cant find anything cheaper tha £160/week for a 1 bedder!! I hate private rentals!


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

fierceabby said:


> (It's prob best not to go down that road....specifics like...... since le prunage of the thread like...   :thumbsup: )


Blimey thats posh le prunage :laugh::laugh:
I will bring out le spudettes:thumbsup:


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I find your tax system confusing? Do you guys pay taxes on homes you rent? Here you pay property taxes on homes you own or are buying. I feel a little confused so won't comment


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

*It would take an incredible leap of faith to suggest all with an excess bedroom could downsize, mainly because the properties simply dont exist, so those in welfare housing having HB reduced by 14% are simply cannon fodder to be milked, letters going out to those loosing benefits are incredibly condescending, i.e.

Question "what can I do"

answer:-, take in a lodger, get help off your family, work extra hours, downsize

all really helpful......not

A LA tenant with an excess room could downsize to private let with fewer bedrooms but 50% higher rent....all payable by HB

I feel for the council but they arent very clever are they
*


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Mind you, if you break the law and go to prison, you will get all of the above plus 3 hot meals a day.*


another myth, yes they get fed (woud you suggest not feeding them?) but they are locked up, if you think thats nice why not try it, im sure you will soon miss the life outside


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Where are they going to find all these smaller homes for people to down size to.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> another myth, yes they get fed (woud you suggest not feeding them?) but they are locked up, if you think thats nice why not try it, im sure you will soon miss the life outside


*Commit the crime, be prepared to do the time.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> I find your tax system confusing? Do you guys pay taxes on homes you rent? Here you pay property taxes on homes you own or are buying. I feel a little confused so won't comment


*It depends Jill...If you are on certain benefits at the moment you don't have to pay council tax. If your not on benefits you do have to.
What this government are going to do, is make those on benefit pay a percentage of the council tax, and if they have more bedrooms than they need they are going to tax them on each spare bedroom. Now they have said they will charge also if you have a dining room.
Bare in mind, the benefit money stays the same.*


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

canuckjill said:


> I find your tax system confusing? Do you guys pay taxes on homes you rent? Here you pay property taxes on homes you own or are buying. I feel a little confused so won't comment


the "bedroom tax" isnt a tax but a benefit cut, its linked to council housing when you have some of your rent paid/subsidised by the council - the amount paid by the govt will be cut if you you spare rooms. 
We do pay council tax which is based on property size, to pay for binmen, etc etc although as Janice siad, if your on certain benefits you may have this paid also.


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> We should be so lucky.....
> 
> In a reasonable part of town:
> 
> ...


mines a council flat not a rental flat. it seems like they are trying to put the price of council places up to the price of a rental place. in the 4 years i have lived here the rent has gone up £20 a week.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

suewhite said:


> Blimey thats posh le prunage :laugh::laugh:
> I will bring out le spudettes:thumbsup:


I shall bring les pantoufles. (That's the slippers to you common folks......   )


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

fierceabby said:


> (It's prob best not to go down that road....specifics like...... since le prunage of the thread like...   :thumbsup: )


i didnt know the thread had been pruned as im only just started reading it all the way through.  
love the 'le prunage'


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Im gonna get blasted for not giving up my home that I love to a family with kids but what the hell ... i'll just ignore any numpty/nasty comments 

I currently live in my ex's house (it used to belong to my parents , I was born and brought up here ... my Dad sold it to my ex after my Mum died), its a 3 bedroom with a dining room & a living room

at the moment I dont pay any rent at all because he is sorting it out with his mortgage company etc ... the powers that be have told me my council tax is zero

Once it is all sorted (he wants £400 a month from me for it) roughly how much would I be liable to pay towards the rent now a dining room is considered a bedroom ? , which is a ludicrous idea by any normal standard


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

MoggyBaby said:


> I shall bring les pantoufles. (That's the slippers to you common folks......   )


i dont even wear slippers. does that make me REALLY common?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> another myth, yes they get fed (woud you suggest not feeding them?) but they are locked up, if you think thats nice why not try it, im sure you will soon miss the life outside


Personally, yes, I would not feed them as these murderers, kiddy fiddlers deserve to have the lethal injection.

We're far too soft....

Time and time again I read these stories of yobs targeting an innocent person and beating them so bad they are horribly disfigured, not to mention lucky to be alive...2 months they get. Why, because it's not fair when they have kids to leave behind. Honest to god truth this is what the judge says. These people don't deserve death, no, but it just shows the joke of our system when it comes to crime and the punishment for it.

Take for exmaple - That woman in Manchester a few months back who had her baby with her in her pram and beat up an innocent person because he was from a different ethnical background. Sickening. She didn't even get sent down for it. Awful woman and poor children to be brought up by a lady who thinks it is okay to act like an animal. May as well strip her of her clothes and throw her in the jungle.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

CRL said:


> mines a council flat not a rental flat. it seems like they are trying to put the price of council places up to the price of a rental place. in the 4 years i have lived here the rent has gone up £20 a week.


Ah I see! I have no idea how much council housing costs round here - there was a 7yr waiting list when I first moved out, and by the time that happened i was no longer eligible for council housing. But then again, there are plenty of families who need it more than I do, I feel so bad for young families crammed into shoeboxes as there is no housing for them


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Mese said:


> Im gonna get blasted for not giving up my home that I love to a family with kids but what the hell ... i'll just ignore any numpty/nasty comments
> 
> I currently live in my ex's house (it used to belong to my parents , I was born and brought up here ... my Dad sold it to my ex after my Mum died), its a 3 bedroom with a dining room & a living room
> 
> ...


*I may be wrong but i think it's something like 14/16% for each spare room. Not sure how the council tax will affect you.*


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I may be wrong but i think it's something like 14/16% for each spare room. Not sure how the council tax will affect you.*


The council tax has already been sorted and they told me I have nothing to pay because I get single person discount and council tax benefit from being on ESA


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I may be wrong but i think it's something like 14/16% for each spare room. Not sure how the council tax will affect you.*


If he is sorting out the mortgage etc etc surely this isnt a housing benefit issue and therefore not subject to the bedroom tax.

The council tax thing is odd...

May be wrong... i dont the know Mese circumstances


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> Ah I see! I have no idea how much council housing costs round here - there was a 7yr waiting list when I first moved out, and by the time that happened i was no longer eligible for council housing.


i was extremely lucky. as soon as i turned 18 i signed up for a council flat. they had a bidding system. in the local paper or online each thursday was a list of the available houses or flats for bidding. you choose which ones you liked and numbered them 1-however many you had chosen. number 1 meant the one you wanted the most. after 2 years of bidding i got a letter saying one of the flats i had bidded on could be mine, i had to have a look at it and see if i wanted it, if i refused the flat i would go back on the waiting list, if i refused 3 houses/flats i would go back to the bottom of the list. i looked around the flat and for a 1 bed it was quite big, the rent was £79.35 a week. soon after i got the flat they changed the system, instead of being 4 seperate areas in wiltshire they merged them all into one area so its harder to get a flat or house, they also changed the way you can bid for the houses or flats. 
i have no idea how i got the flat so quickly as i was on the list for 2 years and i had no extra things pushing me up the list, like overcrowding or young children. 
but tbh for the rent to go up by £20 in 4 years on a 1 bed council flat is quite bad. i pay about £20 less a week than my parents do for a 3 bed council house with 2 huge gardens.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Boadicea1 said:


> Personally, yes, I would not feed them as these murderers, kiddy fiddlers deserve to have the lethal injection.
> 
> We're far too soft....
> .


and of course the only people in prison are kiddy fiddlers and murderers. there is NOONE innocent in prison because wrongful convictions have never and will never happen, and also there is obviously NOONE in prison for crimes less serious than kiddy fiddling or murder.

/sigh


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

porps said:


> and of course the only people in prison are kiddy fiddlers and murderers. there is NOONE innocent in prison because wrongful convictions have never and will never happen, and also there is obviously NOONE in prison for crimes less serious than kiddy fiddling or murder.
> 
> /sigh


Very true, many are innocent, thats why im anti death penalty till 1000% proof if ever. Eye for an aye n all is my motto but only if given fairly.


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

welshjet said:


> Jan - got my book open again as to when thread will be closed
> 
> Any takers on what page ??? ??? hmy:





westie~ma said:


> Re-opened after some pruning.
> 
> Keep it on track and civil please.


Drumroll. And the winner is.........

They have asked for no publicity.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

porps said:


> and of course the only people in prison are kiddy fiddlers and murderers. there is NOONE innocent in prison because wrongful convictions have never and will never happen, and also there is obviously NOONE in prison for crimes less serious than kiddy fiddling or murder.
> 
> /sigh


Sorry, but did I actually state the whole minority of people in prison are just that? No, I even said people who commit other crimes, such as stealing, etc, do not deserve the injection. Reads my posts again I suggest.

Yes, I am aware people get convicted for crimes they do not commit.

I am not talking about this. I am talking about the ones who do.

Thank you though.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

This council business is making me more angry everytime I read about it...

We all know the council only give a stuff about one thing - Money. I live in a two bedroom flat and there was problem after problem at one point with our neighbour who would have parties everynight, swearing, loud music....Nothing ever got done. 

The flats are falling to pieces as well. Mould and damp coming up the walls (Not just me but everyone else in the block of flats) kitchen falling apart, cupboards coming from hinges...Been up there so many times and get nothing from them at all. 

But if you're quick to fall behind on rent - Boy are they onto you. You go there seeking for help - They hide away like ants.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Boadicea1 said:


> Yes, I am aware people get convicted for crimes they do not commit.
> 
> I am not talking about this. I am talking about the ones who do.
> 
> Thank you though.


problem is that when you convict someone wrongfully then put them to death theres no coming back from that once the mistake is realised.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

porps said:


> problem is that when you convict someone wrongfully then put them to death theres no coming back from that once the mistake is realised.


So basically there will never be enough evidence? Never concrete enough.

What about those who were surviving victims? Or witnesses who were there at the scene of the crime...or even coming across someone who went to commit the crime...What then?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

grumpy goby said:


> If he is sorting out the mortgage etc etc surely this isnt a housing benefit issue and therefore not subject to the bedroom tax.
> 
> The council tax thing is odd...
> 
> May be wrong... i dont the know Mese circumstances


*I was thinking, if Mese was going to be paying £400 per month she would get help with housing? If she does then wouldn't she then have to pay the bedroom tax?
lol i've confused my self now..lol*


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Boadicea1 said:


> So basically there will never be enough evidence? Never concrete enough.
> 
> What about those who were surviving victims? Or witnesses who were there at the scene of the crime...or even coming across someone who went to commit the crime...What then?


noone should even be in prison if the evidene is concrete. isnt that the whole basis of our (so called) justice system: guitly beyond reasonable doubt? yet mistakes still happen.

what about those who try to stitch someone up by claiming to be a surviving victim or claiming to have been at the scene of the crime when they actually werent?

its a bit off topic anyway if u wanna talk about the death penalty perhaps you should make a new thread about it.

having said that, i would still love to see these politicians put to death.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

CRL said:


> i dont even wear slippers. does that make me REALLY common?


Yer an urchin ain't ya!!!! Just a wee slipperless urchin!!!! 



porps said:


> and of course the only people in prison are kiddy fiddlers and murderers. there is NOONE innocent in prison because wrongful convictions have never and will never happen, and also there is obviously NOONE in prison for crimes less serious than kiddy fiddling or murder.
> 
> /sigh


I know of a bloke who's in prison for stealing a telly......

Well, it was about his 10th telly if we're being REALLY honest.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I was thinking, if Mese was going to be paying £400 per month she would get help with housing? If she does then wouldn't she then have to pay the bedroom tax?
> lol i've confused my self now..lol*


Yes I would then get help and would have to pay the bedroom tax myself ... im not sure how this applies to private renting as opposed council renting though , if there is any distinction , I dunno , I get very confused with all this

so would a 3 bed property then be classed as a 4 bed property ?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Mese said:


> Yes I would then get help and would have to pay the bedroom tax myself ... im not sure how this applies to private renting as opposed council renting though , if there is any distinction , I dunno , I get very confused with all this
> 
> so would a 3 bed property then be classed as a 4 bed property ?


*Ok i've just looked it up...it doesn't apply to private tenants, only council or housing association tenants.

Bedroom Tax - National Housing Federation

Now i don't understand this crap..So you can rent privately, which will cost more and have as many bedrooms as you like basicly?*


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Mese said:


> Yes I would then get help and would have to pay the bedroom tax myself ... im not sure how this applies to private renting as opposed council renting though , if there is any distinction , I dunno , I get very confused with all this
> 
> so would a 3 bed property then be classed as a 4 bed property ?


I guess if the dining room is being counted as a bedroom, then yeah a 3 bed could be a 4bed (assuming it has a seperate dining room).

I may be wrong, again, but i *think *it applies to anyone recieving housing benefits and in social housing. If you private rent, I believe your local housing allowance takes into consideration your "needs" with regards to bedrooms, so you would need to pay extra for additional rooms. The local Housing Allowance, is obviously a different scheme for private tenants.

https://www.gov.uk/housing-benefit/what-youll-get


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## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i've just looked it up...it doesn't apply to private tenants, only council or housing association tenants.
> 
> Bedroom Tax - National Housing Federation
> 
> Now i don't understand this crap..So you can rent privately, which will cost more and have as many bedrooms as you like basicly?*


wow what a really fair system............not!! I just dont think the government have thought any of it through properly at all, private renting is so much dearer i'd love them to explain how this is going to save money, it doesnt make sense to me or maybe i am just stupid


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

I think what is misleading, is that people think they will be charged more if they live in a council house but do not recieve benefit - YOU DONT. *Its not a tax, its a benefit cut*. 
You only have to "pay" the extra 14% or 25% if you recieve housing beneifts - and not if you have been recieving benefits since before 2008


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

skip said:


> wow what a really fair system............not!! I just dont think the government have thought any of it through properly at all, private renting is so much dearer i'd love them to explain how this is going to save money, it doesnt make sense to me or maybe i am just stupid


*It just make sense does it? *


----------



## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> I think what is misleading, is that people think they will be charged more if they live in a council house but do not recieve benefit - YOU DONT. *Its not a tax, its a benefit cut*.
> You only have to "pay" the extra 14% or 25% if you recieve housing beneifts - and not if you have been recieving benefits since before 2008


I understand its a cut in benefit,what i personally dont understand is why wont they be cutting a persons benefit in private renting too


----------



## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i've just looked it up...it doesn't apply to private tenants, only council or housing association tenants.
> 
> Bedroom Tax - National Housing Federation
> 
> Now i don't understand this crap..So you can rent privately, which will cost more and have as many bedrooms as you like basicly?*


No as they will only pay the going rate for the rooms you need anyway

So us we live in a two bed with 3 children they would oay for the two beds, if we moved to a 3 bed they would still only pay for two beds as our children are under 11 
Say they pay a max of £120 a week for a two bed but my 3 bed cost £150 a week they would only give me £120 towards it 
Does that make sense? Private renters I guess I have slways had a bedroom tax


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

skip said:


> I understand its a cut in benefit,what i personally dont understand is why wont they be cutting a persons benefit in private renting too


Because this is already calculated based on your needs when recieving local housing allowance. A single person wont ever get anything more than the rate stated for 1 room - they dont get anything towards additional space.

There is nothing TO cut in terms of "additional space"

You can rent as many rooms as you like, but have to pay for it out of your pocket.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

grumpy goby said:


> I think what is misleading, is that people think they will be charged more if they live in a council house but do not recieve benefit - YOU DONT. *Its not a tax, its a benefit cut*.
> You only have to "pay" the extra 14% or 25% if you recieve housing beneifts - and not if you have been recieving benefits since before 2008


*I understand it's not actually a tax, but that's what it's been labeled. I thought it didn't matter how long you had been on benefit.
Can you give a link to that please?*


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## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *It just make sense does it? *


 I said it doesnt make sense to me, you got me a bit confused now, 
sorry i think i'm having a really thick day


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

skip said:


> I said it doesnt make sense to me, you got me a bit confused now,
> sorry i think i'm having a really thick day


*You and me both..my head hurts.*


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

I don't get what's confusing about this. For the umpteenth time:

It's not a tax.

If you're being given money (i.e. housing benefit), the amount you receive is reduced. Your rent does not go up, nor are you paying more. The amount of subsidy you receive is reduced by a nominal amount according to the amount of surplus space you have.

And tenants renting privately but in receipt of housing benefit have been affected by this for years - this was already covered in a previous thread on the topic (that I believe JANICE199 also started):



SandyR said:


> People in privately rented accommodation already only get housing benefit for the amount of rooms they require on the same criteria as this new bedroom tax. We have been affected for years.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

https://www.gov.uk/housing-benefit/what-youll-get

LHADirect - Local Housing Allowances (LHA) - VOA - calculator for LHA


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## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> Because this is already calculated based on your needs when recieving local housing allowance. A single person wont ever get anything more than the rate stated for 1 room - they dont get anything towards additional space.
> 
> There is nothing TO cut in terms of "additional space"
> 
> You can rent as many rooms as you like, but have to pay for it out of your pocket.


Thanks for explaining that, its had me so confused. 
I dread the day i ever have to claim.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Boadicea1 said:


> Personally, yes, I would not feed them as these murderers, kiddy fiddlers deserve to have the lethal injection.
> 
> We're far too soft....


But the judical system cant have divisions for all ranks of crime, ergo the real villains (and rapists/paedos/killers) can end up lumped together with OAP CT non-payers and the Tony Martin's and very petty crims......

Hang em all?....bit extreme most would say


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

surely its only a bedroom if theres a bed in it, and only a dining room if people eat in t?...


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> Where are they going to find all these smaller homes for people to down size to.


Wales.......


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

porps said:


> noone should even be in prison if the evidene is concrete. isnt that the whole basis of our (so called) justice system: guitly beyond reasonable doubt? yet mistakes still happen.
> 
> what about those who try to stitch someone up by claiming to be a surviving victim or claiming to have been at the scene of the crime when they actually werent?
> 
> ...


Perhaps I should. I was just replying to another user here on what they said but it appears you wanted to talk about it given your response.

Politicians, ey? And tere was me being extreme with expressing my opinion.


----------



## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

MoggyBaby said:


> Yer an urchin ain't ya!!!! Just a wee slipperless urchin!!!!
> 
> I know of a bloke who's in prison for stealing a telly......
> 
> Well, it was about his 10th telly if we're being REALLY honest.


Doesn't make sense.  Stealing is a crime and you should be punished yes but these serious crimes with thugs going around beating people up...Walks away without a punishment. Makes me sick.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> But the judical system cant have divisions for all ranks of crime, ergo the real villains (and rapists/paedos/killers) can end up lumped together with OAP CT non-payers and the Tony Martin's and very petty crims......
> 
> Hang em all?....bit extreme most would say


I guess we beg to differ. My belief is that if you can kill someone in cold blood you do not deserve the luxury of living. JMO.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> I know of a bloke who's in prison for stealing a telly......
> 
> Well, it was about his 10th telly if we're being REALLY honest.


Oh wow MB, I had no idea you knew my ex :w00t:

You have my condolences


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> Wales.......


Only rather large sheds are available to "incomers"


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

westie~ma said:


> Only rather large sheds are available to "incomers"


Be careful WM, or you might find yourself being taxed on that........ 

They're looking for anything these days!!!

Whatever you do, don't move to Scotland.....

Anger at 'shed tax' go-ahead | Herald Scotland

:eek6: :eek6:


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

Boadicea1 said:


> So basically there will never be enough evidence? Never concrete enough.
> 
> What about those who were surviving victims? Or witnesses who were there at the scene of the crime...or even coming across someone who went to commit the crime...What then?


Well if there are witnesses, the evidence MUST be concrete.

Tell that to Timothy Evans.

[/offtopic]


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> Be careful WM, or you might find yourself being taxed on that........
> 
> They're looking for anything these days!!!
> 
> ...


I have permission for a brick Brutus :thumbsup:

As for planning applications, apply for everything all on one form and pay once. I applied for extension, garage conversion, conservatory and a brick built shed it was all accepted but we have only done the garage.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

westie~ma said:


> I have permission for a brick Brutus :thumbsup:
> 
> As for planning applications, apply for everything all on one form and pay once. I applied for extension, garage conversion, conservatory and a brick built shed it was all accepted but we have only done the garage.


Hey Lavs, if the absolute worst happens, I reckon WM will have PLENTY of space for you and all your babies!!!!! :thumbup:

Might need to build it yourself though............. :lol: :lol:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Tamsin W said:


> Well if there are witnesses, the evidence MUST be concrete.
> 
> Tell that to Timothy Evans.
> 
> [/offtopic]


Indeed....witnesses can and do tell lies.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> Hey Lavs, if the absolute worst happens, I reckon WM will have PLENTY of space for you and all your babies!!!!! :thumbup:
> 
> Might need to build it yourself though............. :lol: :lol:


I'd have no problem living in a shed. I've even thought about living in a camper lol


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> I'd have no problem living in a shed. I've even thought about living in a camper lol


I hope you can get this sorted out soon, seems madness


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## metame (Sep 25, 2009)

i just read this whole thread and im still confused


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

metame said:


> i just read this whole thread and im still confused


I weeded out all the shouty bits


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## metame (Sep 25, 2009)

to be fair most things confuse me.

Taxes are the worst though, i dread getting my own place and having bills and taxes to pay, i wouldnt know what to do or where to start.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bankers don't have to worry about stuff like this


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

rona said:


> Bankers don't have to worry about stuff like this


It really annoys me that people keep bashing people out there earning a living paying **** load in taxes, it's a people a lot higher up than the average banker who make the decisions on wages and bonuses .

Seen as England biggest export is banking services , where would the country be without them as we are too small a island to produce most things.

And no my OH is not a banker before people think that :lol:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> It really annoys me that people keep bashing people out there earning a living paying **** load in taxes, it's a people a lot higher up than the average banker who make the decisions on wages and bonuses .
> 
> Seen as England biggest export is banking services , where would the country be without them as we are too small a island to produce most things.
> 
> And no my OH is not a banker before people think that :lol:


Well we used to produce stuff when I was young


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> Well we used to produce stuff when I was young


*And i believe we could do it again. But we won't be given the chance to try.*


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## jess91 (Jun 28, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> Dining rooms may be taxed | The Sunday Times
> 
> DINING rooms, praised by the government as crucial to family cohesion, may become subject to David Camerons controversial bedroom tax. Councils will be allowed to classify dining rooms as bedrooms for the purposes of the new tax, which comes into force next month.
> 
> ...


As a housing benefits officer, I can tell you that there is absolutely no truth to 'dining room tax' whatsoever.

Don't believe everything you read in the paper.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

jess91 said:


> As a housing benefits officer, I can tell you that there is absolutely no truth to 'dining room tax' whatsoever.
> 
> Don't believe everything you read in the paper.


what about this?...












> Most of this type of houses have what is known as a box-room and this has traditionally been the sleeping accommodation of the children. These rooms by their nature have a small but adequate floor space and will usually easily accommodate a singe bed or bunks.
> 
> Under section 326 of the Housing Act 1985, it is quite possible that these rooms are not bedrooms at all. Section 326 deals with The Space Standard and requires a certain floor area per 'person' in the house. The floor area that can be occupied by an adult must be above 70 sq ft and very few box rooms are that size.
> 
> The Housing Act tells us that a room below 70 sq ft is suitable for half a person and a child under ten is apparently such a fraction. So returning to under-occupancy, an empty box room might attract the 'tax', but can it be legally sustained?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Boadicea1 said:


> I guess we beg to differ. My belief is that if you can kill someone in cold blood you do not deserve the luxury of living. JMO.


so you support the death penalty, what about the other 90% of the prison population, as bad as crimes may be you cant hang everyone!


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## jess91 (Jun 28, 2011)

That is Housing Regulation, not Housing Benefit regulation.

The DWP guidelines do not state what is classed as big enough to be called a bedroom. If you dispute a boxroom (should you have one) being called a bedroom then you should take this up with your housing office or housing association, and ask for your property to be reclassified accordingly. 

Normally, for example if its a three bed but has a box room and is reclassied as a two, you would expect a corresponding reduction in the rent charge.
If that happens, then it would be looked into.

You cannot just go 'Oh well I think its only a two bed, so I ain't paying the difference'


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jess91 said:


> As a housing benefits officer, I can tell you that there is absolutely no truth to 'dining room tax' whatsoever.
> 
> Don't believe everything you read in the paper.


*With respect, i will continue to believe what i read given the low levels to which this government have stooped to.
But as you are a housing officer, can you clarify the fact that if you have been claiming since/before 2008, this bedroom tax will not apply?*


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect, i will continue to believe what i read given the low levels to which this government have stooped to.
> But as you are a housing officer, can you clarify the fact that if you have been claiming since/before 2008, this bedroom tax will not apply?*


Re-reading the link im unsure if the 2008 thing refers to limits on the LHA or benefit reduction. I think it may be on LHA re-reading it, although I think the wording makes it unclear.

ETA I think that I may have misread the info on the link, having done more research! That will teach me for stealth researching whilst at work!


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## jess91 (Jun 28, 2011)

If you have a council or housing association tenancy it will apply.

If you are unsure if under occupancy applies to you, you really need to check with your local council.

The pre 2008 tenancies you're thinking of are normally with private lanlords.
Under occupancy DOES NOT apply to private tenancy or owner occupier claims.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

The interesting bit is will the next government repeal this "tax" (or rather the reduction in benefits for empty/unused/guest bedrooms)....

Personally I would bet not

Theres probably a section of society not too unhappy that the taxpayer wont be paying for welfare housing tenants to have the luxury of spare bedrooms....


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Wonder how Liz and Phil will get on with just one bedroom...gonna be a bit cramped with all them corgis...


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Would just like to add..If anyone has someone that needs care around the clock, the bedroom tax shouldn't apply to the new rules. ( yes i know the bedroom tax was not the subject).*


Sorry Janice but that isn't correct unfortunately. My sister's eldest is severely disabled and sis cares for her 24/7, 365 days a year - no respite, no help nothing. Because the other girls have thier own homes now she is being hit by the under occupancy changes it will cost her around £17 a week - would be more but does get some sort of allowance. Doesn't sound much but as she says may as well ask her for £17,000 a week, she is on the breadline as it is.

Sister cannot get a job because she looks after her daughter day and night - saving the tax payer the hundreds of thousands it would cost for institutional care.

Take in a few lodgers has been one solution posted here - my neice can often wail/scream throughout the night, who would want to lodge:nonod:

She has no option but to move, but there is no option to move as nothing is available, unless the housing association agree to pay thousands to convert a property with the relevant disabled facilities.

In principle it all seemed a good idea, in practice it is hitting the "genuine" cases hardest


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> Sorry Janice but that isn't correct unfortunately. My sister's eldest is severely disabled and sis cares for her 24/7, 365 days a year - no respite, no help nothing. Because the other girls have thier own homes now she is being hit by the under occupancy changes it will cost her around £17 a week - would be more but does get some sort of allowance. Doesn't sound much but as she says may as well ask her for £17,000 a week, she is on the breadline as it is.
> 
> Sister cannot get a job because she looks after her daughter day and night - saving the tax payer the hundreds of thousands it would cost for institutional care.
> 
> ...


*DR...take a look at this link...fast forward it to 9.24 mins and listen to what Cameron says.*
Prime Minister&#39;s Questions: 6 March 2013 - YouTube


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I think a few people may be looking at knocking a wall down to extend 1 bedroom and "downsize" the property, or add a feature that reduces a bedroom to a closet/walk in wardrobe


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> I think a few people may be looking at knocking a wall down to extend 1 bedroom and "downsize" the property, or add a feature that reduces a bedroom to a closet/walk in wardrobe


*
The problem with that is, if it is council or housing association owned they will need permission.*


----------



## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> I think a few people may be looking at knocking a wall down to extend 1 bedroom and "downsize" the property, or add a feature that reduces a bedroom to a closet/walk in wardrobe


Not like you can just go around knocking holes into property that doesn't belong to you. And if you can afford to extend one room into two (not a job to DIY by any stretch of the imagination), you can afford 14 quid a week to pay for the extra room, like you're supposed to.


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## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

We downsized to a smaller house from a 3 bedroom to a 2 and I have just had a thought the actual difference in rent was 3 or 4 pounds, yes it was our choice and we're not on benefits but thats all we saved. There really isnt a big difference in council house size and rent.
Basically the government know they have got people by the short and curlies because even if they want to move there are just not the houses available or if they are people will have to move miles away from family,schools etc


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Tamsin W said:


> Not like you can just go around knocking holes into property that doesn't belong to you. And if you can afford to extend one room into two (not a job to DIY by any stretch of the imagination), you can afford 14 quid a week to pay for the extra room, *like you're supposed to.*


no but a quick stud wall, plasterboard and some wallpaper could reduce a single bedroom to a small closet

I like the "supposed to" bit, firstly its a new rule (not even law yet) so no, right now im NOT supposed to and secondly I bet you Id make up the 14% (not £14) they would want here by other means.......


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

the MIL has been in a 3 bed semi for 20+ years on her own, good job shes an OAP, she gets 25% single occupancy CT reduction.....I can see that going soon, why give a discount then reduce benefits?......crazy


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

metame said:


> to be fair most things confuse me.
> 
> Taxes are the worst though, i dread getting my own place and having bills and taxes to pay, i wouldnt know what to do or where to start.


its easy

they all send you bills....lol


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *DR...take a look at this link...fast forward it to 9.24 mins and listen to what Cameron says.*
> Prime Minister's Questions: 6 March 2013 - YouTube


I was shocked listening to that - either my sisters housing association (council have farmed them all out to the private sector in our area) have got it wrong or Cameron is telling blatant lies. My sister has a disabled child, albeit she is an adult but its still her child, she needs round the clock care she cannot move, talk or do anything herself but they are not exempt.

If you believe whats in the Press anyone on benefits is living the life of riley with loads of money - maybe some are but my sister isn't. 3 years ago she had a two day holiday in Wales, her first break in 24 years, she only had that because I paid. Not been able to take her since because local authority have closed the respite place close to her and removed all funding for transport. Because of my neices vulnerability she would need to be chaperoned so you can't just stick her in a taxi meaning sis would have to go with her, involving 4 taxi journeys at £20 each - guess what, she can't afford it.

We ocassionally go out, am talking once every six months and again she can only do that because I pay. She can't even go to the shop unless one of her other children (adults, youngest is 16) are around to stay in with my neice.

She is 30+ now and my sister has looked after her at home all that time, she is like a baby - how many people would want to swap places for this so called easy life on benefits sitting on her bum, still changing nappies for the rest of her days. I wouldn't - and no she isn't depressed or complains ever. Its just not fair that there is no property offered to downsize too and she doesn't know which way to turn. £17 a week is peanuts if you have it, if you don't may as well ask for thousands - she doesn't have anything to cut back on to find it.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> I was shocked listening to that - either my sisters housing association (council have farmed them all out to the private sector in our area) have got it wrong or Cameron is telling blatant lies. My sister has a disabled child, albeit she is an adult but its still her child, she needs round the clock care she cannot move, talk or do anything herself but they are not exempt.
> 
> If you believe whats in the Press anyone on benefits is living the life of riley with loads of money - maybe some are but my sister isn't. 3 years ago she had a two day holiday in Wales, her first break in 24 years, she only had that because I paid. Not been able to take her since because local authority have closed the respite place close to her and removed all funding for transport. Because of my neices vulnerability she would need to be chaperoned so you can't just stick her in a taxi meaning sis would have to go with her, involving 4 taxi journeys at £20 each - guess what, she can't afford it.
> 
> ...


*I was so angry when i saw that speech, because to my knowledge it hasn't been on the news. ( i could be wrong though ).
I hope your sister takes this up with her landlord. Let's face it, they are Camerons words.*


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I was so angry when i saw that speech, because to my knowledge it hasn't been on the news. ( i could be wrong though ).
> I hope your sister takes this up with her landlord. Let's face it, they are Camerons words.*


Found out a little more this evening - Mr C is seriously bending the truth. Those with severe disability and/or requiring round the clock care are not exempt at all but are entitled to apply for a discretionary payment - its up to the council whether decide to award it or not. Sister found out today she has it for the moment but its discretionary and temporary - she has to keep re-applying every month so hopeful will let her have a home until they can get somewhere smaller.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Found out a little more this evening - Mr C is seriously bending the truth. Those with severe disability and/or requiring round the clock care are not exempt at all but are entitled to apply for a discretionary payment - its up to the council whether decide to award it or not. Sister found out today she has it for the moment but its discretionary and temporary - she has to keep re-applying every month so hopeful will let her have a home until they can get somewhere smaller.


How much is the admin costs to do that each month , ridiculous !

Glad she is ok for now .


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> Found out a little more this evening - Mr C is seriously bending the truth. Those with severe disability and/or requiring round the clock care are not exempt at all but are entitled to apply for a discretionary payment - its up to the council whether decide to award it or not. Sister found out today she has it for the moment but its discretionary and temporary - she has to keep re-applying every month so hopeful will let her have a home until they can get somewhere smaller.


*You can't believe what comes out of his mouth, or Cleggs.
Clegg stated a few months ago, that ALL pensioners will get a flat rate of £140 per week. But when i looked into it, in actual fact this will not be the case.
And they said they were doing it to makes things more simple.*


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> How much is the admin costs to do that each month , ridiculous !
> 
> Glad she is ok for now .


Quite - plus the stress every month of the chance of the payment being stopped. It will also cost thousands to adapt an alternative property if one is found.

There is another little hiccup no one seems to have considered - if a property has been specially adapted you have to remain there for ten years!


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Can i ask where the information has come from about dining room tax, this is the first i have heard of it
Also i live in a 3 bedroomed HA house which i have no intention of moving from, 
I have family living abroad and family here, [sons and daughter] who have sometimes had to live here for various reasons
I have been offered a flat in the past [before these new rules]which was like a shoebox, i couldnt live in it also would have had to get rid of my cats,
Another thing to think about is there is no other spare housing available, and even if i did an exchange for a 2 bed house,according to the new rules i would still have a spare room
I am a pensioner so it doesnt affect me anyway, but i think it is all wrong and i feel for those people that it will affect, so its not a case of im alright Jack,
This Government want kicking out
I dislioke DC with a vengeance


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> Can i ask where the information has come from about dining room tax, this is the first i have heard of it
> Also i live in a 3 bedroomed HA house which i have no intention of moving from,
> I have family living abroad and family here, [sons and daughter] who have sometimes had to live here for various reasons
> I have been offered a flat in the past [before these new rules]which was like a shoebox, i couldnt live in it also would have had to get rid of my cats,
> ...


Sorry, this may sound harsh - but seriously? You're complaining because the (heavily subsidised) housing you were offered you deemed 'too small'? Be grateful you have a subsidised roof over your head at all. Many people don't have that luxury.

If someone (not yourself obviously, given your exemption) said point blank that they were unwilling to move from their 3 bedroom HA home, as a sole occupier and despite having been offered a smaller alternative, and then proceeded to complain about paying extra for the unnecessary space they were taking up - really, that's beyond absurd.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Tamsin W said:


> Sorry, this may sound harsh - but seriously? You're complaining because the (heavily subsidised) housing you were offered you deemed 'too small'? Be grateful you have a subsidised roof over your head at all. Many people don't have that luxury.
> 
> If someone (not yourself obviously, given your exemption) said point blank that they were unwilling to move from their 3 bedroom HA home, as a sole occupier and despite having been offered a smaller alternative, and then proceeded to complain about paying extra for the unnecessary space they were taking up - really, that's beyond absurd.


I tend to think that most 3 bedroom houses are occupied by pensioners in my street there 20 house 3 privately owned,17 HA owned all occupied by either 1 pension aged person or a couple of pensioners,and are they not exempt? I might be wrongx


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> Can i ask where the information has come from about dining room tax, this is the first i have heard of it
> Also i live in a 3 bedroomed HA house which i have no intention of moving from,
> I have family living abroad and family here, [sons and daughter] who have sometimes had to live here for various reasons
> I have been offered a flat in the past [before these new rules]which was like a shoebox, i couldnt live in it also would have had to get rid of my cats,
> ...


You tell that to a family of 4,5,6 stuck in b&b or bedsit as there is not enough houses for families . That you need spare room for visitors  thank god you was born in the right generation ay !


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Sorry i knew this wouldnt go down well, i didnt say i was complaining about anything
I was offered this flat about 15 years ago, but its on an estate that i wouldnt be seen dead on, where i live now is very secure, and if i had to pay extra i would at least try to do that ,so dont know where you have got that from,that i am complaining
If i was offered a decent place with at least 1 spare room i would think again, but i am not going to be stuck on a rough estate for anyone
I have at the moment a son living with me who has had a nervous breakdown, after a marriage breakup, who was made redundant,so had to give his place up, where could he have gone if i didnt have a spare room
At the moment there are only 3 properties available in this town which are a one bedroom flat,more like a bedsit, and a 2 bed maisonette
One of our councillors was on the radio last week, saying what are they supposed to do with people to help them downsize
IF i was offered a decent [place,as i have said,yes i would consider it, but i have no intention of moving to an area that no one else would want to move to,or giving up my cats
It might sound selfish, but i will have to live there for the rest of my life,
Here i have good neighbours, [both in their 80s by the way] and they wouldnt move either
I am very grateful, but why should anyone have to move to a shoebox where all you can do is sit and watch tv all day, no garden and no one you know,and away from your family, 
Blame the Government not anyone else, there should be more housing built, but thanks to Thatcher a lot sold off, which is fine if more were built
Just because someone is a pensioner does that mean we should be booted out of our homes we have had for years into oblivion, more or less,with no choice of where we go
Still no wiser about the dining room tax?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suewhite said:


> I tend to think that most 3 bedroom houses are occupied by pensioners in my street there 20 house 3 privately owned,17 HA owned all occupied by either 1 pension aged person or a couple of pensioners,and are they not exempt? I might be wrongx


*Yes you are, this won't apply to pensioners.*


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Yes you are, this won't apply to pensioners.*


It wont apply to pensioners nor will it apply to the disabled so whats the problem with it? 
It would be better if people were exempt from the 'tax' if they were to go on the waiting list for a smaller property and would not pay anything while they wait to be rehoused.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> Just because someone is a pensioner does that mean we should be booted out of our homes we have had for years into oblivion, more or less,with no choice of where we go


But the thing is why should a HA tenant have more security that a private tenant? At least with the HA you will be offered alternative accommodation, private tenants don't have that luxury :hand:

You don't own the property so if the council say you have to move for one reason or another then I'm afraid you should move...

I would love the security that you get in a council property, however I have been waiting for 6 years and will most likely be waiting for a lot longer if I get one at all :huh:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> It wont apply to pensioners nor will it apply to the disabled so whats the problem with it?
> It would be better if people were exempt from the 'tax' if they were to go on the waiting list for a smaller property and would not pay anything while they wait to be rehoused.


*The problem is they are taking money from those that cannot afford it. Why not target the rich?
They have not thought this stupid thing through. But then i wouldn't exspect anything less from this government.*


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *The problem is they are taking money from those that cannot afford it. Why not target the rich?
> They have not thought this stupid thing through. But then i wouldn't exspect anything less from this government.*


Maybe they are doing it on purpose to get the people who are in properties that are considered too big for their needs to downsize. 
Its not in any contract that they can force you to move if your needs change so how else are they going to do it legally? 
They cant, so they will cut benefits and they have every right to.

And as for that numpty targeting the rich...your kidding right? Never would they target their own kind.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *The problem is they are taking money from those that cannot afford it. Why not target the rich?
> They have not thought this stupid thing through. But then i wouldn't exspect anything less from this government.*


Jan!! I dont think they give a flying fart about bedrooms and how many, it's just a nice little earner for them,and once again setting people against each other,I bet if they could find away they'd charge me for having 3 extra bedrooms (must'nt speak to soon"


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Maybe they are doing it on purpose to get the people who are in properties that are considered too big for their needs to downsize.
> Its not in any contract that they can force you to move if your needs change so how else are they going to do it legally?
> They cant, so they will cut benefits and they have every right to.
> 
> And as for that numpty targeting the rich...your kidding right? Never would they target their own kind.


HB Our council have a clause in there tenancy agreements that states if you under occupy they are within there rights to move you.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suewhite said:


> HB Our council have a clause in there tenancy agreements that states if you under occupy they are within there rights to move you.


Not ours. There are loads of oldies living in 3/4bed houses.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Not ours. There are loads of oldies living in 3/4bed houses.


Same here even with that rule there is nowhere to put people


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suewhite said:


> Same here even with that rule there is nowhere to put people


There are a hell of alot of empty houses round here that are 2 bed...even 3bed houses. 
They are quite picky about who they house round here, about 30 years ago this area was horrendous! In recent years they have rebuilt the schools and dont house you if you have any convictions etc and they give people who work priority over the houses. 
Its a really nice place to live now so they are doing the right thing.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

The council have some wonderful rules and suggestions

be an unemployed parent, claim HB and have a dependent live with you and they want to know what they earn, if they earn a decent wage you lose ALL your HB, so the child moves out, you have a spare bedroom and you lose 14% of your HB....der......

have a LODGER and they want to know what rent you get, but as welfare tenants you cant sub-let.....

live alone and get 25% sole occupancy discount off your CT, have 2 spare bedrooms and you lose 25% of your HB.....

its like a chinese puzzle


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> I am very grateful, but why should anyone have to move to a shoebox where all you can do is sit and watch tv all day, no garden and no one you know,and away from your family,


Why? Because it's essentially free. That's why. At the end of the day, you have a roof over your head.

If you want the luxury of living in however big a property you like, in whatever area you like, you rent privately or buy. It's that simple.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tamsin W said:


> Why? Because it's essentially free. That's why. At the end of the day, you have a roof over your head.
> 
> If you want the luxury of living in however big a property you like, in whatever area you like, you rent privately or buy. It's that simple.


*How is it free?  My god, no wonder this government can get away with screwing everyone.*


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Tamsin W said:


> Why? Because it's essentially free. That's why. At the end of the day, you have a roof over your head.
> 
> If you want the luxury of living in however big a property you like, in whatever area you like, you rent privately or buy. It's that simple.


Free? Are you serious?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Free? Are you serious?


If she is a pensioner and gets housing benefit then yes 

Good to have my sparing partner back HB


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> If she is a pensioner and gets housing benefit then yes
> 
> Good to have my sparing partner back HB


Why assume shes on HB just because shes a pensioner? My great grandad paid every penny of his rent never had a penny hb as he had savings.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

FREE? I have [paid taxes in the past like anyone else],living on the streets is even freer, no bills to pay, but might as well as be parked somewhere and live the rest of our lives miserable, 
My council; have told me and my neighbours they cant force us to move,
So pensioners can be stuck just anywhere as long as we dont take room up 
If i could ever have afforded to buy my own place dont you thinkl i would have,
How about all these people with 2 people working,and more than 1 car, also owning businesses,who are living in council or HA houses, why cant they move them out,and leave houses free for people who need them
I think if you own your own house you cant tell someone who hasnt had the opportunity to do that,where they should live,and how
Lucky you, if you do ,circumstances come into it too, 
As i said, if i was offered a decent place ,i would consider it,
Would our removal be paid for? and new carpets etc that would be neede in a new place,i doubt it
Some people who are elderly couldnt cope with the stress of moving ,its a big upheaval
Hope all you critisizing never have the bad luck to be in some pensioners situation, but then again, you might realize how lucky you have been in the past


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Why assume shes on HB just because shes a pensioner? My great grandad paid every penny of his rent never had a penny hb as he had savings.


My bad , I would assume that people would have bought their council house if they had that much savings. Also as this is about housing benifit I would assume they are on it .


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Just for those that assume so much..The couple across the road from me, are both retired ( in their 70's ) and get no help. Why? because they paid into pensions and fall short, literally by a couple of pounds.*


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> My bad , I would assume that people would have bought their council house if they had that much savings.


He was in a 1 bed bungalow. There are certain bungalows/flats that tennants are not allowed to buy as they are especially for the elderly.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> FREE? I have [paid taxes in the past like anyone else],living on the streets is even freer, no bills to pay, but might as well as be parked somewhere and live the rest of our lives miserable,
> My council; have told me and my neighbours they cant force us to move,
> So pensioners can be stuck just anywhere as long as we dont take room up
> If i could ever have afforded to buy my own place dont you thinkl i would have,
> ...


You think my generation (I'm 30 ) will get better than what you get  NO chance ! We won't even get to retire until mid 70s and doubt there will be a state pension.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Just for those that assume so much..The couple across the road from me, are both retired ( in their 70's ) and get no help. Why? because they paid into pensions and fall short, literally by a couple of pounds.*


Thats disgusting!

How much do you have to have saved before they refuse you help?


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

EXACTLY. janice; so some people assume too much dont they,and harleybear, i see you like living in a nice area,where your council pick and choose who lives there, what does that say about you, [and me ]you like living in an area like that; so do and i intend to stay in a nice area,


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

harley bear said:


> He was in a 1 bed bungalow. There are certain bungalows/flats that tennants are not allowed to buy as they are especially for the elderly.


Sorry I did edit my post to say seen as the other poster was commenting on this thread about the cut not affecting them due to being a pensoner it's was a safe bet they get housing benifit .


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> EXACTLY. janice; so some people assume too much dont they,and harleybear, i see you like living in a nice area,where your council pick and choose who lives there, what does that say about you, [and me ]you like living in an area like that; so do and i intend to stay in a nice area,


That is all well and good if it was your house, but it isn't.. As I said why should HA have more security than private tenants?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Thats disgusting!
> 
> How much do you have to have saved before they refuse you help?


*To be honest i didn't ask any details. But if you could see her and her husband, imho. they need help.
But my next door neighbour who claims he has a bad back gets a car. Now i know they own their house, but if you could see him, he is the classic cheat.
He walks up and down the road, so slow you would think he is close to deaths door. But when he is in his garden ( and sober ) he will work like any able bodied person. He even does gardening for other people.
This really does p*ss me and hubby off big time.
*


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *To be honest i didn't ask any details. But if you could see her and her husband, imho. they need help.
> But my next door neighbour who claims he has a bad back gets a car. Now i know they own their house, but if you could see him, he is the classic cheat.
> He walks up and down the road, so slow you would think he is close to deaths door. But when he is in his garden ( and sober ) he will work like any able bodied person. He even does gardening for other people.
> This really does p*ss me and hubby off big time.
> *


We have someone down here who was disabled 2 weeks ago all of a sudden this new benefit reform comes in and he is not only looking for a job the one he got he bikes to 

Its amazing how these people get away with it!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Pointermum said:


> You think my generation (I'm 30 ) will get better than what you get  NO chance ! We won't even get to retire until mid 70s and doubt there will be a state pension.


*Oh how i wish you could be in the shoes of the people you are referring to.
I'm 63, and hand on heart i feel so bad for the younger people. I have a grandson not much younger than you. And i wouldn't want to be in his shoes,or ANYONE that is finding things hard these days.
But, PLEASE don't aim your anger at those that have, now. W e have paid our way, and many continue to do so.
Also, when as " oldies " took on our council houses, we were NEVER told it would be temperary.(sp)
We did what we thought was right.*


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Oh how i wish you could be in the shoes of the people you are referring to.
> I'm 63, and hand on heart i feel so bad for the younger people. I have a grandson not much younger than you. And i wouldn't want to be in his shoes,or ANYONE that is finding things hard these days.
> But, PLEASE don't aim your anger at those that have, now. W e have paid our way, and many continue to do so.
> Also, when as " oldies " took on our council houses, we were NEVER told it would be temperary.(sp)
> We did what we thought was right.*


You don't think we will pay a hell of a lot more for a hell of a lot longer time for a hell of a lot less 

My nan who is 69 years old, i know her views on who had the good years


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Oh how i wish you could be in the shoes of the people you are referring to.
> I'm 63, and hand on heart i feel so bad for the younger people. I have a grandson not much younger than you. And i wouldn't want to be in his shoes,or ANYONE that is finding things hard these days.
> But, PLEASE don't aim your anger at those that have, now. W e have paid our way, and many continue to do so.
> Also, when as " oldies " took on our council houses, we were NEVER told it would be temperary.(sp)
> We did what we thought was right.*


It's not anger, it's common sense. As B3rnie pointed out, why on earth should those in subsidised housing have _more_ security than those who are self-sufficient and in private tenancy? It makes literally no sense whatsoever.

At the end of the day, if you're renting privately, no one cares how long you've been in a property - if your landlord decides to sell up one day, that's it (unless you're the one buying). I'm not by any stretch of the imagination suggesting people be thrown out onto the street - but if underoccupiers are actually offered an alternative property more in keeping with their needs ('needing a spare room' is not a need), and are in a position to turn it down due to personal preference, it all seems a bit ludicrous.

No one is disputing that you've paid into the system - but at the end of the day, you've also had a great deal out of it. By your own admission, you own your house courtesy of RTB - and correct me if I'm wrong, but those properties were discounted anywhere between 30% and 50% off market value? That's a pretty substantial 'withdrawal' as far as your taxes are concerned - and at least you've seen some sort of ROI. As Pointermum pointed out, those of us in our 30s are unlikely to see anything resembling a state pension when our turn comes. But such is life.

I would love a bigger house in a nicer area. When we bought, a property of that description was out of our price range. But according to your logic, as I've 'paid in' to the system, and as I'm currently handing over 40% of my income to HMRC every month, don't I have the 'right' to a property of whatever size I like, wherever I see fit? Thought not.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Pointermum said:


> You don't think we will pay a hell of a lot more for a hell of a lot longer time for a hell of a lot less
> 
> My nan who is 69 years old, i know her views on who had the good years


*Oh for goodness sake stop feeling sorry for your self. If you think for one moment us oldies had it easy, think again.
I have already said i wouldn't want to be your age. But we had our fait share of sh*t too.*


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Oh for goodness sake stop feeling sorry for your self. If you think for one moment us oldies had it easy, think again.
> I have already said i wouldn't want to be your age. But we had our fait share of sh*t too.*


I'm not feeling sorry for myself, i'm sick of others feeling sorry for themselves  Saying we paid in we deserve this , that , the other i'm just pointing out we pay in but will get sweet FA by the time it comes to us


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> I'm not feeling sorry for myself, i'm sick of others feeling sorry for themselves  Saying we paid in we deserve this , that , the other i'm just pointing out we pay in but will get sweet FA by the time it comes to us


To be fair the way you put yourself across you come from a wealthy home so when you reach the grand old age you should be pretty secure.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tamsin W said:


> It's not anger, it's common sense. As B3rnie pointed out, why on earth should those in subsidised housing have _more_ security than those who are self-sufficient and in private tenancy? It makes literally no sense whatsoever.
> 
> At the end of the day, if you're renting privately, no one cares how long you've been in a property - if your landlord decides to sell up one day, that's it (unless you're the one buying). I'm not by any stretch of the imagination suggesting people be thrown out onto the street - but if underoccupiers are actually offered an alternative property more in keeping with their needs ('needing a spare room' is not a need), and are in a position to turn it down due to personal preference, it all seems a bit ludicrous.
> 
> ...


*No it is not common sense. Do you think us oldies didn't rent private befor getting a council house? As i've said before, i waited 11 years before i got this house.
Aim your anger at the GOVERNMENT. you might just see some changes.
On that note, i'm going for some dinner.
*


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> I'm not feeling sorry for myself, i'm sick of others feeling sorry for themselves  Saying we paid in we deserve this , that , the other i'm just pointing out we pay in but will get sweet FA by the time it comes to us


^ Exactly this.

Not so much self-pity as realism - and too many people seem to think of their taxes as a personal piggy bank. How many people on long term benefits seem to think it's okay because at some point they paid a bit of tax and they now have some sort of right to reimbursal?

I'm all for taking care of the population, particularly the vulnerable. But there's a difference between 'taking care of' and 'pandering to every whim'.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

harley bear said:


> To be fair the way you put yourself across you come from a wealthy home so when you reach the grand old age you should be pretty secure.


I was brought up by my single dad who worked long hours to keep the house when my mum left. I didn't have a named pair of trainers until i got a Saturday job at 16 when all my friends at school did for PE.

My husband does have a well paid job now but it's been a long slog to get to where we are today, which as i've pointed out before is a 3 bed terraced ex council house so not a mansion by any stretch of imagination.

We don't have savings as we have only just cleared debts, we are starting to work on this. We do not come from "money" and as we had children young , the out goings are high as we want better for them than we had.

So as things stand we are ok but if hubs walked out tomorrow i would be FCUK , or if he got ill or lost his job if he couldn't get one quickly .


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Anyone who thinks we had it easy, should be able to walk in our shoes for a while as it was then, 
There was no tax credits,if you worked and got any benefit in those days,whatever you earned was knocked off your benefits, AND we had rent to pay, no benefits there
I was a single [divorced] mum with 4 kids, i lived in a hovel with a fireplace that fell onto my daughter,2 floors were not even habitable
I got no financial [or otherwise] support from my ex, there was no CSA either in those days,he paid £1 each child, and gave up work so as not to pay that,
We have lived on soda bread for days until i got what social security was due, my part time job wage was knocked off my S S
I have struggled all my life,
I am not complaining, i got through it,but i think now i deserve a decent place to live, 
I have my cats and a garden, that is all i want, why should these be denied me or any other person my age, and you think we had it easy, live and learn


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> I was brought up by my single dad who worked long hours to keep the house when my mum left. I didn't have a named pair of trainers until i got a Saturday job at 16 when all my friends at school did for PE.
> 
> My husband does have a well paid job now but it's been a long slog to get to where we are today, which as i've pointed out before is a 3 bed terraced ex council house so not a mansion by any stretch of imagination.
> 
> ...


The way you were talking the other day about you paying enough tax every year to cover your kids education, NHS for all of you etc etc etc i was under the impression your ok was earning in excess of £100k.

When i was growing up all i got was jumble clothes and if on the odd occasion i was able to get new i wasnt allowed to wear them as my dad didnt want me to ruin them


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> Anyone who thinks we had it easy, should be able to walk in our shoes for a while as it was then,
> There was no tax credits,if you worked and got any benefit in those days,whatever you earned was knocked off your benefits, AND we had rent to pay, no benefits there
> I was a single [divorced] mum with 4 kids, i lived in a hovel with a fireplace that fell onto my daughter,2 floors were not even habitable
> I got no financial [or otherwise] support from my ex, there was no CSA either in those days,he paid £1 each child, and gave up work so as not to pay that,
> ...


Im sure my dad used to pay less tax when we were kids and would pick up more of a wage as he had children to support. I know tax credits havent been around long but they were to replace the tax relief.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

harley bear said:


> The way you were talking the other day about you paying enough tax every year to cover your kids education, NHS for all of you etc etc etc i was under the impression your ok was earning in excess of £100k.
> 
> When i was growing up all i got was jumble clothes and if on the odd occasion i was able to get new i wasnt allowed to wear them as my dad didnt want me to ruin them


When you you fall into the 40% tax bracket it adds up quickly , his not into the 6 figure bracket though. You already know from what i've said on here we don't get CB so working on the minimum amounts for that he pays at least Tax	£13,884.00 National Insurance £4,534.90


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> When you you fall into the 40% tax bracket it adds up quickly , his not into the 6 figure bracket though. You already know from what i've said on here we don't get CB so working on the minimum amounts for that he pays at least Tax	£13,884.00 National Insurance £4,534.90


I think everyone is going through sh1t with this government tbh esp families. 
Obviously not if you are on a stupidly high wage running into the hundreds of thousands. 
Cant see it getting any better for us tbh


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

harley bear said:


> I think everyone is going through sh1t with this government tbh esp families.
> Obviously not if you are on a stupidly high wage running into the hundreds of thousands.
> Cant see it getting any better for us tbh


We sort of knew things should be ok in the long run as hubs can work his way up . I honestly don't know how most families cope , so think tax credits are essential. Houses use to be bought on one persons salary , now it takes two full time workers to afford it. Childcare from family is rare now as our parents are working longer so nan and grandad aren't around to help. Some say wait until you can afford to have kids, the truth would be the average person would never afford to !!

It does annoy me though those who was helped years ago when their family needed it aren't willing to give back and down size as "why should they" :huh:


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> We sort of knew things should be ok in the long run as hubs can work his way up . I honestly don't know how most families cope , so think tax credits are essential. Houses use to be bought on one persons salary , now it takes two full time workers to afford it. Childcare from family is rare now as our parents are working longer so nan and grandad aren't around to help. Some say wait until you can afford to have kids, the truth would be the average person would never afford to !!
> 
> It does annoy me though those who was helped years ago when their family needed it aren't willing to give back and down size as "why should they" :huh:


Its so true, we have no family to help with child care and what have you so i shall do it all myself until they are at school and i can go back to work..i cant wait actually!

The 'why should we downsize' attitude does need to change when there are so many in need of housing. 
That being said though i dont think badly of people who buy their council homes because its so hard to get on the property ladder and people only want to do whats best for their families.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> It does annoy me though those who was helped years ago when their family needed it aren't willing to give back and down size as "why should they" :huh:


THIS is the crux of the whole argument!!!!

Rental council homes are NOT homes for life - they are homes to suit your needs at any specific time. They are SOCIAL housing to accomodate those in need of a roof over their heads. Where is the fairness of a family of 5 crammed into a 2-bed house when a 4 bed house around the corner has one person rattling around in it. That person may have grown up in that house but that does not give them the automatic right to die in it.

It does not help, however, that there is a lack of one-bed accomodation and councils need to look into this as a priority.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

HM Revenue & Customs: Taxable and non-taxable income at a glance

tax credits aren't a benefit, you just have a tax relief. Different definition. The link shows what is considered state benefit.

Also if tax credits gave free eyecare and whatnot pretty much every family would get it. A lot of employers offer free eye tests etc and eyecare vouchers as a health and safety thing but otherwise I think you are confusing income support with tax credit.

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

edit to add... as pointermum said the extra help is for low income people, not ALL on child tax credit
HM Revenue & Customs: Other help you might qualify for if you get tax credits

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## SandyR (Oct 8, 2011)

I get free dental, eye care help and free prescriptions because I'm on working tax credits with earning of below £16k a year. Not everyone on tax credits gets any of this I'm afraid.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

SandyR said:


> I get free dental, eye care help and free prescriptions because I'm on working tax credits with earning of below £16k a year. Not everyone on tax credits gets any of this I'm afraid.


Thank you for clarifying. I knew that tax credits alone did not entitle any of the benefits that TT was speaking of.

For the record...I think any working family on such a wage SHOULD be entitled to extra help help given if claiming working tax credits. Its only fair!


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> Dining rooms may be taxed | The Sunday Times
> 
> DINING rooms, praised by the government as crucial to family cohesion, may become subject to David Camerons controversial bedroom tax. Councils will be allowed to classify dining rooms as bedrooms for the purposes of the new tax, which comes into force next month.
> 
> ...


anyway to get money out of you, why cant they just relocate people to smaller houses like they used to do?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jenny armour said:


> anyway to get money out of you, why cant they just relocate people to smaller houses like they used to do?


*There just isn't enough smaller homes available. *


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## Lel (Mar 21, 2012)

I haven't read the whole thread but I have no problem with the benefits system being overhauled.

The benefits system is abused en masse and this country cannot afford it to continue.

The problem is that the genuine cases are hard to spot amongst those who know how to work the system.

There are lots of people genuinely in need of help and I am not for a minute suggesting that there aren't. BUT I don't believe that you should be entitled to any luxuries if you don't fund your own existence and lifestyle.

Why should those being supported by the state need extra living space in their homes? Many people trying to buy their own house will be buying a one bedroom flat with a combined kitchen/living room because they can't afford anything else. I see no reason why those on benefits should be provided with anything but the bare essentials.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Rental council homes are NOT homes for life - they are homes to suit your needs at any specific time. They are SOCIAL housing to accomodate those in need of a roof over their heads


This is what's being forgotten. People are happy enough to expect a bigger house when they need it so why such uproar when it works both ways round.


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## alan g a (Feb 23, 2011)

Blimey. They'll be taxing us for taxing a dump before long. It's getting to point where we might as well just give our wage packet straight to the government .
:001_wub:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> There just isn't enough smaller homes available.


This is the case with the current supply of social housing. It may be there is more in the private sector.


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## alan g a (Feb 23, 2011)

As I have said before, not everyone on benefit are out to fiddle the government. Many of them would love a job but either not able to or are just not being given a chance. Wether you like it or not, we live a dog eat dog society. The rich get richer and the poor get pooer.


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Done some weeding, again


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

westie~ma said:


> Done some weeding, again


Your soo good at it, my garden is looking a bit neglected how do i hire you :001_tongue:


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

alan g a said:


> Blimey. They'll be taxing us for taxing a dump before long. It's getting to point where we might as well just give our wage packet straight to the government .
> :001_wub:


There's VAT on your bog paper and air freshener and tax on your water bill....
So crap away and think of your contribution to Blair and Thatchers pension fund.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Lel said:


> I haven't read the whole thread but I have no problem with the benefits system being overhauled.
> 
> The benefits system is abused en masse and this country cannot afford it to continue.
> 
> ...


I think some people feel far too entitled, whether they have paid a lot of tax or not. Of course people should be housed if they need it, but why on earth should they have a larger house than they need? I understand it's difficult if there aren't suitable houses available in the area, but to be honest, tough. If people renting or buying privately can't afford to live in the area they want, they relocate.


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## ukdave (May 26, 2011)

What is this? And I thought Julia Gillard sucked. :/


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

CatPatrol said:


> What is this? And I thought Julia Gillard sucked. :/


Oh she does ..shes prolly the reason our koalas got chlamydia


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Waterlily said:


> Oh she does ..shes prolly the reason our koalas got chlamydia


......

awww poor julia ....

seeing as where she hails from does it suprise you :yikes::yikes:...

it's a joke folks , don't be getting all serious on me now


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

tincan said:


> ......
> 
> awww poor julia ....
> 
> ...


Lmaooo :hand: ........nope, no surprise at all *files nails*


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

havoc said:


> This is the case with the current supply of social housing. It may be there is more in the private sector.


How does it work between getting a council house and getting HB to rent in the private sector? There seem to be lots of families living in private rental on HB rather than in council properties around here. Can those downsizing not go into the private rentals rather than trying to place them in non-existant smaller council properties?

However my perception is that in this area there are more smaller council HA properties than family homes. I don't know about the rest of the country but any new developments here have to have some form of social housing, on our small estate (30 houses) they built a block of flats which was split between shared ownership and Housing Association.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> How does it work between getting a council house and getting HB to rent in the private sector? There seem to be lots of families living in private rental on HB rather than in council properties around here. Can those downsizing not go into the private rentals rather than trying to place them in non-existant smaller council properties?


Yes they can if they choose do to so. Those on HB in private rentals have never been able to have bigger places than necessary paid for in full from the welfare budget. They can of course choose to pay the extra for more space if they wish. The same rules will now be applied to social housing.

Those of us who are not on benefits pay more if we want extra space be it the price of the property or rent and of course council tax. We have the choice to live without spare rooms and separate dining rooms. Some of us choose to have more space than we strictly need to live and we pay for it.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

havoc said:


> Yes they can if they choose do to so. Those on HB in private rentals have never been able to have bigger places than necessary paid for in full from the welfare budget. They can of course choose to pay the extra for more space if they wish. The same rules will now be applied to social housing.
> 
> Those of us who are not on benefits pay more if we want extra space be it the price of the property or rent and of course council tax. We have the choice to live without spare rooms and separate dining rooms. Some of us choose to have more space than we strictly need to live and we pay for it.


Thankyou, that makes sense. So the changes will only affect you if you are on HB, if you work and pay rent on social housing there is no change?

Sorry I do have trouble keeping up


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Polimba said:


> Thankyou, that makes sense. So the changes will only affect you if you are on HB, if you work and pay rent on social housing there is no change?
> 
> Sorry I do have trouble keeping up


It's only those who receive housing benefit and living in council/housing association accommodation who will have a cut in the benefit for spare rooms.

The rent is not going up on the places so if you pay it yourself there is no change, the housing benefit is now not going to cover the rent on a bigger house than their needs.

Hope that makes sense


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Thankyou, that makes sense. So the changes will only affect you if you are on HB


The change is a change to HB payments. HB will be cut for those people living in properties larger than they need. It's the definition of 'need' which is causing controversy.


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## alan g a (Feb 23, 2011)

poohdog said:


> There's VAT on your bog paper and air freshener and tax on your water bill....
> So crap away and think of your contribution to Blair and Thatchers pension fund.


They can have the crap with my pleasure but the money, well that's another story.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Council: no tenant to be evicted over bedroom tax » Housing » 24dash.com

"A council has declared that none of its social tenants will be evicted if they cannot afford to pay the government's forthcoming bedroom tax.

Brighton & Hove City Council has become the first local authority in the country to take such a stance.

Councillor Liz Wakefield said: "The so-called 'spare room subsidy' is yet more immoral and harmful legislation from this morality-free coalition government."

*So they may as well say people don't have to pay it.*


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *So they may as well say people don't have to pay it.*


Not really.

_"She added that steps would be taken to ensure that tenants don't take advantage of the proposals, and that officers would have to be satisfied that those pushed into arrears by the bedroom tax were doing everything they could to pay their rent."_

If they're means testing, fine. If people genuinely can't afford it, they genuinely can't afford it. But for anyone who can afford it (and by that I include giving up any luxury of comparable price), it's by no stretch unreasonable - and if a smaller home _is_ available, taking it should not be optional.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tamsin W said:


> Not really.
> 
> _"She added that steps would be taken to ensure that tenants don't take advantage of the proposals, and that officers would have to be satisfied that those pushed into arrears by the bedroom tax were doing everything they could to pay their rent."_
> 
> If they're means testing, fine. If people genuinely can't afford it, they genuinely can't afford it. But for anyone who can afford it (and by that I include giving up any luxury of comparable price), it's by no stretch unreasonable - and if a smaller home _is_ available, taking it should not be optional.


*My post was a joke, hence the wink and smile.*


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## alan g a (Feb 23, 2011)

One of the Housing Associations in my area are horrified with this decision to reduce benefits to tenants who have got more bedrooms than they need. It is not going to help anyone, it will mean a lot of people are going to go into debt because they either won't, or simply can't afford to pay.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> it will mean a lot of people are going to go into debt because they either won't, or simply can't afford to pay


Big difference between won't and can't. Don't councils have funds and discretion where the genuine can't category are concerned?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

havoc said:


> Yes they can if they choose do to so. Those on HB in private rentals have never been able to have bigger places than necessary paid for in full from the welfare budget. They can of course choose to pay the extra for more space if they wish. The same rules will now be applied to social housing.
> 
> Those of us who are not on benefits pay more if we want extra space be it the price of the property or rent and of course council tax. We have the choice to live without spare rooms and separate dining rooms. Some of us choose to have more space than we strictly need to live and we pay for it.


But what happens if you have say a three bedroomed private rental which you have had with housing benefit for years, and now you only need one bedroom? Who is going to know? Once they have checked initially, they don't usually go back to private houses to make sure it is not too big do they?

I had a pupil with five children and because the council couldn't find her the right sized house, they gave her a seven bedroom one. She did not ask for it nor want it, so does she still have to have the benefit cut for the extra rooms?

Where are all these smaller places supposed to come from anyway? It is surely unfair to move someone out of a house with a garden that they may have tended for years, and put them in a flat with a window box?

Also an awful lot of private landlords will not rent to anyone on housing benefit, so that is another problem.


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## alan g a (Feb 23, 2011)

I knew my reply would be controversial, but before you make your mind up, consider this:-
The lovely little old couple lived in a house for 30yrs. During which time they created a lovely garden which was pile of mud. They also spent a small fortune decorating over the years, and with the owners permission, made some improvements to the property at their own expense. They are now being told, sorry, you are now past your sell by date and you now have got to go to the bottom of the scrapheap again.


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## SandyR (Oct 8, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> But what happens if you have say a three bedroomed private rental which you have had with housing benefit for years, and now you only need one bedroom? Who is going to know? Once they have checked initially, they don't usually go back to private houses to make sure it is not too big do they?
> 
> I had a pupil with five children and because the council couldn't find her the right sized house, they gave her a seven bedroom one. She did not ask for it nor want it, so does she still have to have the benefit cut for the extra rooms?
> 
> ...


If this was the case say because kids had moved out etc then you would have to notify the council of change in circumstances, the same as if you suddenly was earning more money. If you don't then it's benefit fraud and you will suffer the consciences if found out. No one is allowed to claim for a bigger house then they require when renting privately. They would not have to move if their needs changed but would receive less benefit meaning finding the extra themselves.


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## SandyR (Oct 8, 2011)

alan g a said:


> I knew my reply would be controversial, but before you make your mind up, consider this:-
> The lovely little old couple lived in a house for 30yrs. During which time they created a lovely garden which was pile of mud. They also spent a small fortune decorating over the years, and with the owners permission, made some improvements to the property at their own expense. They are now being told, sorry, you are now past your sell by date and you now have got to go to the bottom of the scrapheap again.


This is the same as private rental though. We have put a lot of time and money into our garden as it was a mess but our landlord could decide to sell our house at any time.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It is surely unfair to move someone out of a house with a garden that they may have tended for years, and put them in a flat with a window box?


It's absolutely fair in the context of social housing. People who pay for their own housing expect to downsize at some point in their later years. As it happens, OAPs are unaffected at this stage though I'm sure it will be phased in.


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

alan g a said:


> I knew my reply would be controversial, but before you make your mind up, consider this:-
> The lovely little old couple lived in a house for 30yrs. During which time they created a lovely garden which was pile of mud. They also spent a small fortune decorating over the years, and with the owners permission, made some improvements to the property at their own expense. They are now being told, sorry, you are now past your sell by date and you now have got to go to the bottom of the scrapheap again.


This is unfortunate, but not unreasonable. If you make any substantial improvement to a property you don't own outright, this is always a risk you run. Why should social housing be treated any differently to a private let?

Private tenants are in exactly the same position, as are mortgage holders to an extent. It's no more unfair than a family of five being forced into a home that's far too small, or worst case scenario a B&B, because those with properties too big for their needs are unwilling to relocate.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

harley bear said:


> It wont apply to pensioners nor will it apply to the disabled so whats the problem with it?
> It would be better if people were exempt from the 'tax' if they were to go on the waiting list for a smaller property and would not pay anything while they wait to be rehoused.


HB - see my earlier post, it does apply to the disabled



havoc said:


> This is what's being forgotten. People are happy enough to expect a bigger house when they need it so why such uproar when it works both ways round.





havoc said:


> This is the case with the current supply of social housing. It may be there is more in the private sector.





Megan345 said:


> I think some people feel far too entitled, whether they have paid a lot of tax or not. Of course people should be housed if they need it, but why on earth should they have a larger house than they need? I understand it's difficult if there aren't suitable houses available in the area, but to be honest, tough. If people renting or buying privately can't afford to live in the area they want, they relocate.


I would imagine there are very few, if any, private rentals that have been adapted for the severely disabled. My sister doesn't feel entitled she has too much on her plate! She has a large property because she had a lot of children (different story!), 3 have moved to their own homes now. She has to stay there for ten years because it was specially adapted for her severly disabled daughter, unless the council agree to waive that. She would happily move but she can't, there is no where available but is still affected by the benefit cut


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> I would imagine there are very few, if any, private rentals that have been adapted for the severely disabled. My sister doesn't feel entitled she has too much on her plate! She has a large property because she had a lot of children (different story!), 3 have moved to their own homes now. She has to stay there for ten years because it was specially adapted for her severly disabled daughter, unless the council agree to waive that. She would happily move but she can't, there is no where available but is still affected by the benefit cut


Sorry, I didn't mean people like your sister. More the ones that don't want to move because they've lived there for twenty years, have friends there, have tended the garden etc., even though they have no need for three bedrooms.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

apologise if this has already been mentioned, but they shouldnt have sold off the council property in the 80's.
a friend of mine's son who is out of work for the past two years aged 58 lived with his mother at one time (never married) and he has now after five years been able to move to a one bed flat in the same town, and he is very pleased as it is going to be cheaper to run for him than the old three bed house he was in before.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

jenny armour said:


> apologise if this has already been mentioned, but they shouldnt have sold off the council property in the 80's.
> a friend of mine's son who is out of work for the past two years aged 58 lived with his mother at one time (never married) and he has now after five years been able to move to a one bed flat in the same town, and he is very pleased as it is going to be cheaper to run for him than the old three bed house he was in before.


I was never in favour of selling off council houses. The government made it sound like a great thing, everyone is entitled to own their own property, etc, when in actual fact they saved themselves a fortune in repairs so the big discounts were worth it. And now they are left with no houses for anybody.

About three years ago they pulled down our local cinema, the Indian restaurant next door and the outdoor swimming pool behind, and put up an ugly fence declaring that it would be new homes for North herts. It is still the same ugly site and they don't have the money to do anything with it.


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