# Which training method is best???:confused1:



## Krystalclear (Oct 7, 2011)

Hi forum peeps Im hoping someone can please help! We're soon to get our Bullmastiff pup and so I've been looking at obedience/puppy training classes. There's not many in Oxfordshire thats for sure but which method is best, clicker or rewards based? I've heard Bullmastiffs can be harder to train so I need to get this right! Thanks in advance


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

er clicker is rewards based..... you just associate the 'click' with a reward to more quickly 'mark' behaviour which is rewarded... I'm rather cack-handed with it, but it's very successful. Just avoid harsh training where correction is used rather than rewards. Go and watch a class before taking your dog - if they wont let you find somewhere else. Don't go if they say take a choke chain. You'll need to take lots of rewards that your dog likes and a toy or two if they like those too. You want a reward and positive training session. Good luck


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Krystalclear said:


> Hi forum peeps Im hoping someone can please help! We're soon to get our Bullmastiff pup and so I've been looking at obedience/puppy training classes. There's not many in Oxfordshire thats for sure but which method is best, clicker or rewards based? I've heard Bullmastiffs can be harder to train so I need to get this right! Thanks in advance


APDT Association of pet dog trainers, only use Kind fair effective methods.
All members have to be assessed, abide by a code of practice, and have to keep up to date with training methods. Clicker training is just a form really of reward based training, the only real difference is the clicker is used as well as the treat reward. To find a class in your area run by an APDT member
Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK or E-Mail [email protected]


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

To get a taster of clicker training sign up to this free 7 day course

Canis Clickertraining Academy

All you need is a first name and an email address and they will send you a link each day to 7 simple lessons, most of which you can get away with doing without a dog. Timing is important so they cover that and it will give you a better understanding of the process. I have used this course and it is a great introduction to the subject if you are interested.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Clicker/Positive all the way.

Mastiffs are foody dogs if I remember correctly so you will get far with persuasion and no where without!


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## tures (Sep 26, 2011)

> There's not many in Oxfordshire thats for sure but which method is best, clicker or rewards based?


no action ! i don't give you any proposal？？sorry,but i want to everybaby proposal ! thanks !


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

tures said:


> no action ! i don't give you any proposal？？sorry,but i want to everybaby proposal ! thanks !


Come again


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

OP you need to be very careful that you don't get some idiot who thinks he has to be the dog's boss, pack leader or any other such rubbish. You mention bull mastiff and someone is going to decide that they are strong, hunting dogs and need a firmer than normal hand.

You need positive methods, you need to teach your dog that you are his friend.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

As has already been explained, clicker training IS a form of reward based training. The only difference is that you use a clicker to "mark" good behaviour and tell the dog a treat is coming.

Different people get on better with or without a clicker. Using a clicker does give you much better timing, making training easier for the dog to understand - so can give faster and more accurate results. However, you do need a reasonable amount of dexterity to use a clicker accurately (whilst also potentially holding the lead, treats etc) and reasonable timing (although this improves with practice).
If you think you will physically struggle and fumble then you may find a clicker hard work - in which case I would suggest using a specific verbal reward marker instead.

Personally, having trained both with and without a clicker I doubt I will ever go without again! 

In either case you should still be training by luring / capturing desired behaviour, and rewarding it.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Even if you are not adept at coordinating a clicker, using a word like 'Yes' works just as well. Especially if you have a dog that is scared of the clicker sound. 

Clicker training is marking training; marking training is a form of rewards-based training.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> some idiot who thinks he has to be the dog's boss, pack leader or any other such rubbish.


You mean APDT founder John Fishers Dominance Reducation program, actualy I think he got some of it from a book of 1960's or 70's by The Monks Of Skeet & then added some things of his own when he formed APDT, then APBC founderJohn Rogerson, who associated with him, did his version & made a video & book of the same name, still selling out here and there but APDT are at the end of the road, few people will use them these days.

APDT Founder John Fishers Dominance Reduction
Dog names, health, and news!: The Harmony Program - Energy Healing For Animals

APDT Looses A Quarter Of Its Members In 3 Years.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...-industry-update-apdt-loose-more-members.html

APBC Publication - John Rogerson
The Dominant Dog
Amazon.com: The Dominant Dog: John Rogerson: Movies & TV

.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> You mention bull mastiff and someone is going to decide that they are strong, hunting dogs and need a firmer than normal hand.


They were not an animal hunter. They were bred by gamekeepers & a mix of bulldogs or bullbreeds of the time & one of the mastiffs (probabaly Old English) as a gamekeepers dog to catch and hold poachers at night on the old estates of the time. Manhunter if you like yes, but not animal hunters.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Indeed, all that dominance theory and dominance reduction programme was the "in thing" all those 16+ years ago. 
Unsurprisingly, the APDT and most qualified behaviourists have long since moved on - particularly in light of more recent evidence. I believe this is why such organisations value Continued Professional Development, so as to keep up to date with the latest available research, methods and ideas. The rest may be simply "flat earthers".


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Clicker training is [marker] training... a form of rewards-based training.


yes - 
i think of the CLICK! as the shutter of a camera, whatever is happening at that snapshot-moment, that's what 
we've captured with our clicker-Kodak, & that's what the dog [or parrot, horse, person, chimp...] will do, again.

if U click at the wrong split-second, *don't panic - * reward them anyway, as U made the mistake, 
not the animal or student, & the click needs to be kept as a solid marker. If the learner REPEATS the error, 
just don't mark it again; it will fade away, all by itself. :yesnod: Clicker is a very forgiving training method; 
yes, timing is important, but i've taught kids as young as 7-YO to use a clicker to train, & they had 
a wonderful time - & also taught some excellent cued-behaviors. :thumbsup:

reward-based training can use ANYthing the dog likes: treats should be quite small, a pea or half-pea size, 
so that they are swallowed without chewing; preferably they're soft rather than dry, but i've used meat-based 
cat-kibble as treats, & i usually break the single star or tripod into pieces to give them as smaller bits.

i use diced chicken-breast, bits of beef, canned or pouch tuna, diced low-fat/low-salt cheeses [Provo, Mozz, etc], 
or *squeezable treats* packed into a re-usable food tube... outdoor supplies & camping stores carry the tubes.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> They were not an animal hunter. They were bred by gamekeepers & a mix of bulldogs or bullbreeds of the time & one of the mastiffs (probabaly Old English) as a gamekeepers dog to catch and hold poachers at night on the old estates of the time. Manhunter if you like yes, but not animal hunters.


I know nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn


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## Krystalclear (Oct 7, 2011)

Thanks everyone..think I've found a good training course "Orchards Dog Training". The guy was really helpful, friendly & encourged me to visit a class prior to starting the course & his training is rewards based. So fingers crossed this will be a start. 
Think it's back to the drawing board for me on the book front though! - bought a handful of books...How to housetrain your puppy in 7 days, The perfect puppy etc etc etc...but the puppy training ones I have are very much from the 'teach them who's pack leader' school of thought! So any good books on puppy/dog training..throw them my way please! (I need to know what Im doing so that I can support what we'll be learning in class & also make a start prior to his training class starting!)...all very daunting to the new puppy owner


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

Oh dear, are some of those books by CM by any chance? If so i'd bin them if I was you, they'll only confuse the issue. I'm not as against him as some are on here but all the psychobabble in his books is a real pain in the tubes after a while 

Take it slow, get to know your pup, use your common sense and follow a reward based training programme as the others have stated and you'll be fine


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## Krystalclear (Oct 7, 2011)

I hope so...whilst positive, i am feeling a bit daunted by it all as just want everything to be perfect for him and to ensure I get it all right 
I do have a couple of CM's books...sorry...'did' have a couple..in the bin as I type


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

We're all on hand to help you lovely 

You're very lucky, my sister has a Bullmastiff and she is the sweetest soul I have ever come across, I think they're cracking dogs


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson is just about the only book you will ever need, once you have read it, everything becomes.much clearer. Not the easiest book to follow, but so worth the effort.


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## dimah (Jul 13, 2011)

I think you got some really good advice here, it all really helped me out. I read The Culture Clash as well, and would recommend it too. It really put me straight on some things I had no idea I was doing were so wrong! I liked "Don't Shoot the dog" as well by Karen Pryor.

I ADORE bullmastiffs - would you post some photos when you get the cutie?


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

Ain't Misbehavin by David Appleby is a good read too, and quite funny


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Are there no videos out there on what you want? it would be a lot clearer surely.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Krystalclear said:


> ...any good books on puppy/dog training... throw them my way please!


2 FREE books on DogStarDaily website - go to the website, click on FREE DOWNLOADS, 
get both _'Before U Get Ur Puppy'_ & _'After U Get Ur Puppy'_. 
they can be printed on paper [even one page at a time, to take along for walks, etc], or read on-line.

I'd read them cover to cover - There's loads of good tips, particularly *socialization* & *bite-inhibition* 
AKA a soft-mouth.


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## Krystalclear (Oct 7, 2011)

Thanks Guys, books on order & will post some pictures of the little fella when I get him. Going to see him this Saturday but cant bring him home till November 12th!...I cant wait..


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## Krystalclear (Oct 7, 2011)

..Have downloaded the free books too (thanks Leashedforlife)...will make for some good bed time reading ha ha!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

DOMINANCE DEBUNKED- The Myths & Realities of Training Dogs - YouTube

Dog Training Tutorial: Holding Objects & Clean Up! - YouTube

What do you guys think of these videos?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> DOMINANCE DEBUNKED- The Myths & Realities of Training Dogs - YouTube
> 
> Dog Training Tutorial: Holding Objects & Clean Up! - YouTube
> 
> What do you guys think of these videos?


he's good - 
clear directions, good video & editing, nice timing. :thumbup:


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

tures said:


> no action ! i don't give you any proposal？？sorry,but i want to everybaby proposal ! thanks !


At last! Someone who speaks MY language :lol:


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

I like this clicker training video from Youtube....

Cuba learns loose lead walking


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Hmmm, I have an issue with your vid link Bearcub.. How is it loose lead walking when there is no lead? Loads of dogs walk closely without a lead, especially with no distractions in a hall type environment, but don't walk well when the lead is attached, so I think you need a lead to teach loose lead, even if it's just to ensure the handler doesn't behave differently because there is a lead. I don't think a dog needs to walk closely to heel in a none obedience, close heel type environment either tbh. 

I prefer the silky lead type of training videos tbh. where the dog is taught to 'follow a feel' and understand the lead, rather than taught without a lead to walk to heel. 

Not putting this very well, but I can't work out how to explain what I mean. lol


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

bearcub said:


> I like this clicker training video from Youtube....
> 
> Cuba learns loose lead walking


WoW - that's my buddy & fellow-trainer, Casey Lomonaco - 
Cuba is a LOT bigger now. :lol:


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Ooh-er, good job I didn't put what I first thought when watching that vid l4l. 

I thought, if Sporty Spice made dog training videos... 

:lol:


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> Hmmm, I have an issue with your vid link Bearcub.. How is it loose lead walking when there is no lead? Loads of dogs walk closely without a lead, especially with no distractions in a hall type environment, but don't walk well when the lead is attached, so I think you need a lead to teach loose lead, even if it's just to ensure the handler doesn't behave differently because there is a lead. I don't think a dog needs to walk closely to heel in a none obedience, close heel type environment either tbh.
> 
> I prefer the silky lead type of training videos tbh. where the dog is taught to 'follow a feel' and understand the lead, rather than taught without a lead to walk to heel.
> 
> Not putting this very well, but I can't work out how to explain what I mean. lol


Oooh, I think that might have been Part 1 of a 3 parter  She introduces the lead over the next sessions. Do you want me to post up the other ones too?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Better had.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> WoW - that's my buddy & fellow-trainer, Casey Lomonaco -
> Cuba is a LOT bigger now. :lol:


Lovely to hear that L4L, small world eh? 

Love her wooden spoon solution too 

Have you met Cuba?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Have you met Cuba?


i've never met either in the flesh - I've only seen Cuba [& Casey] in photos & vids.

she's a USA-apdt member... & NOT one of the yank-n-thank or poke, etc, members - 
she's an excellent representative of genuine reward-based training: Set the dog up to be right, 
reward the almost-inevitable right behavior, get it on cue, & start proofing. :thumbup:


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Here's part 2 Elles...

Canalul utilizatorului RewardingBehaviors - YouTube

Can't find a part 3, maybe there wasn't one after all


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Krystalclear said:


> ...I've been looking at obedience/puppy training classes. There's not many in Oxfordshire...


Local Dog Trainers in Oxfordshire UK 


> Trainers in Oxfordshire
> 
> Tony Orchard	00132
> Address: The Orchard Dog Training Centre, Twyford Road, Twyford, Banbury, Oxon OX17 3JL
> ...


the only one i see who does NOT offer puppy-classes is *Paula Topping*. 
everyone else appears to have pups listed specifically. :001_smile:


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## natty01 (Sep 4, 2011)

someone posted the training levels website on a thread of its own . definatly have a look at that . if you follow that programme step by step i dont think you can really go wrong.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

natty01 said:


> someone posted the training levels website on a thread of its own . definatly have a look at that . if you follow that programme step by step i dont think you can really go wrong.


Sue Ailsby's Training Levels have now been rewritten and can be ordered for a fee, but you can still find the original version here

Introduction

Very thorough and very worthwhile doing.


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