# dog experts, dog lovers, anyone, please help!



## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

something tragic has happened and i need advice please read.. 

Me and my boyfriend live in a house with 3 dogs, 1 male staff called Harley (7 years old), 1 small female staff called Tara (1 year and 7 months old) and 1 american bulldog called Lainie (1 year and 8 months old) 

All dogs are soft as a brush never shown any sign of aggression towards each other, humans, or any other animals. The two young ones have been socialised since birth and grown up with Harley since 6 weeks old!

Last wednesday they got into a fight 
Lainie started attacking Harley and then Tara later joined in attacking Harley also.

Harley was in a very bad way, he now only has one eye and we didnt even know if he was going to make it.. we decided to get the two girls put down and Harley is now on his way to recovery.

I am just so confused, i cannot come to terms with this. The girls were angels, they loved Harley, they were 3 best friends. Can anyone tell me why this happened? i trusted them around babies and small children and everyone knew how soft and gentle they were. I am just in utter shock i cant believe it.. any advice or explanation is appreciated. i am devastated  ps did we make the right decision to put them down????

Also the vet said that Lainie needed a muzzle on to be put down which i cannot understand? she was such a gentle giant 

what has all of a sudden caused this change??  Please help me


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

were they all entire?
i`m really sorry this has happened.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

what does entire mean ? x


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks for the reply x

What does entire mean?


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

had they been neutered (their sex organs removed)

hormones can cause sudden mood swings/violence

for example my dog Biggles has always got on brilliantly with my sister in law's dog Bolt (both currently entire as waiting for them to mature before neutering)

my SiL's other dog Maya came into season before her spay date (they only recently got her as a rehome) and we were dog sitting to help prevent puppies so Bolt came here

for the first time we had handbags and scrapping between them and had to keep them separate - Bolt ignored Charlie who is already neutered so seems he only saw Biggles as a 'threat'

I am so sorry for your loss and hope your boy feels 100% again soon


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Harley had been neutured but the girls hadn't..

we were going to get them done after both their second seasons.
Lainie was just coming out of her second season at the time. 
Could this have had something to do with it? should we have got them done sooner?

PS thank you for the helpful advice very much appreciated


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

I think to understand what happened people will need more information. Little things can make a dog behave differently.
How often did they get walked, had someone new moved into the house, has someone moved out the house. What were they all doing before the attack, was there food down a bone or a toy. 
Were they entire means have they had the snip? do they have there reproductive organs all in tact and in full working order. 
Unfortunately a dogs behavior can come down to bad breeding, training, food, exercise anything so its important to know more about the dogs usual routine. Sometimes it can just be something so tiny that triggers a very big reaction. 

I am very sorry to hear about what has happened to your dogs, i would be devastated in a situation like this.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Harley was neutured. the girls were not, we were waiting for them both to have their second season.

Their day was as normal as any day, no one new in the house, unfortunately i was at work when it happened, but my boyfriends mam was in with them, she was doing house work (which has never bothered them before) she turned her back for one second and she said that Lainie had pinned Harley down. 

The dogs go for a short walk on a morning and about 45 minutes on a night, thanks for the advice x


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Hayley337 said:


> Harley had been neutured but the girls hadn't..
> 
> we were going to get them done after both their second seasons.
> Lainie was just coming out of her second season at the time.
> Could this have had something to do with it? should we have got them done sooner?


Two hormonal bitches and one male? Yes. 
I would keep them separate if you`re not supervising, engage a reputable behaviourist who has APBC qualifications. 
Oh - and change your vet!

edited to add - sorry I missed the bit where you had the bitches pts. Ignore my post.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Two hormonal bitches and one male? Yes.
> I would keep them separate if you`re not supervising, engage a reputable behaviourist who has APBC qualifications.
> Oh - and change your vet!


Too late. It sounds like she already had two of her dogs PTS...


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you, why do i need to change my vet?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Also no, I don't think you made the right decision at all quite frankly and it's a shame you didn't ask for advice before putting two dogs to sleep.


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

Hayley337 said:


> Harley was neutured. the girls were not, we were waiting for them both to have their second season.
> 
> Their day was as normal as any day, no one new in the house, unfortunately i was at work when it happened, but my boyfriends mam was in with them, she was doing house work (which has never bothered them before) she turned her back for one second and she said that Lainie had pinned Harley down.
> 
> The dogs go for a short walk on a morning and about 45 minutes on a night, thanks for the advice x


There are others on here that could probably help you more as i am deffo no expert.
What i can tell you is when the chi's come into season they suffer with PMT just like we would, they are grumpy, snappy and best to be left alone. I would probably put it down to them being due a season. Unfortunalty some dogs are more affected than others, some just get overly crabby.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Hayley337 said:


> something tragic has happened and i need advice please read..
> 
> Me and my boyfriend live in a house with 3 dogs, 1 male staff called Harley (7 years old), 1 small female staff called Tara (1 year and 7 months old) and 1 american bulldog called Lainie (1 year and 8 months old)
> 
> ...


I am very sorry for your loss, but I am not about to tell you that having the girls put to sleep was the right thing to do. How do you know it was them or even one of them, that started it? Were you there? If you were how was it allowed to get so bad, was there not a bucket and some water handy?

I don't wish to sound harsh, but I think your main problem was two entire (unspayed) bitches, one just coming out of a season. It is no coincidence that nasty women are called bitches.

Two female dogs will very often fight, something will start them off and it will go on and on. Dogs, on the other hand tend to fight over resources and then it is over and done with.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

it was probably hormonal if one was coming off season and for whatever reason the other 'joined in'

there can be other underlying health issues that also cause sudden aggression but without many tests it's impossible to tell

mood swings with the hormones mean that either bitch could have suddenly become incredibly territorial or posessive over a certain room, area of room, piece of furniture, a toy or chew or even just 'not like the way he looked at them'

the scent of one dog being in season can utterly throw the group dynamic

also, just because he is neutered doesn't mean he didn't possibly have a 'bit of a go' and try humping and the girl just get p*ssed off and it escelate suddenly from there


because they were unsupervised there is no way to say exactly what happened - it's a pity that the two girls lost their lives over something out of their control, though I can't agree with what you did though I can sympathise

I am guessing you are not overly experienced with dogs from what you have said? as in they have been around but nothing much has ever happened I mean? so this big scary thing happens and you panic - it's a knee jerk reaction and fairly human - very sad but no point in berating you over something you already feel awful about.

Hopefully this helps someone else who may read it though or yourself in the future should you choose to give Harley a new friend in the future when he's better


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

excuse me, the vet said we had made the right decision. if you have nothing nice to say please leave it because quite frankly i am broken without those two dogs it was the hardest thing i have ever had to do. but i had another dog in a critical condition with one of his eyes hanging out, what would you have done?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Hayley337 said:


> excuse me, the vet said we had made the right decision. if you have nothing nice to say please leave it because quite frankly i am broken without those two dogs it was the hardest thing i have ever had to do. but i had another dog in a critical condition with one of his eyes hanging out, what would you have done?


Your vet doesn't know your dogs, and vets are there for medical decisions, not behavioural ones. Just because a dog gets in a fight does not mean it's right to have them killed. You asked whether you were right or not, I have answered. If you didn't want an answer then don't ask the question.

I wouldn't have put two dogs to sleep due to what seems to be bad management of the situation on your part.


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

Hayley337 said:


> Thank you, why do i need to change my vet?


If you had had a good vet, he would have asked alot more questions before you put your dogs to sleep. He would have advised you spoke to a behaviourist or someone professional. He would have asked you questions and tried to advise you on other options.
Unfortunately its done now and you were not to know that some vets talk out there arse, scuse the language. I would however get a new vet for the dog you have left. 
Sorry we could not have helped sooner


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

i really appreciate all of the advice, i agree that no one knew the dogs as well as we did but the vet did know both dogs as they had dealt with both of them alot since they were pups.

I suppose i will just have to live with the guilt now, i hope my babies can forgive me for being such a terrible owner, sorry angels


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Hayley337 said:


> excuse me, the vet said we had made the right decision. if you have nothing nice to say please leave it because quite frankly i am broken without those two dogs it was the hardest thing i have ever had to do. but i had another dog in a critical condition with one of his eyes hanging out, what would you have done?


What would I have done? Once the male dog was recovered and home, I would have made quite sure that they were separated when not supervised. I would not have left two females and a male alone in the first place.

Your vet may have said you did the right thing to make you feel better, or he may have said it because they are the two breeds least likely to get rehomed.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

TBH it sounds like a knee jerk reaction from your vets because of the breeds involved. Im not going to have to go at you though for making a decision at such a stressful time and with supposedly 'expert' advice, Im sure you are devasated anyways.
But 2 same age, same sex dogs (esp of similar size too) can be a recipe for disaster. If you add hormones to the mix then you have a potential powderkeg. Some breeds can be managed if they fight as they arent natural fighters but bully breeds are extremely tenacious and have ridiculously high pain thresholds which means they often wont back down til one is dead. I would of got everyone neutered and tried to rehome the instigator of the attack, only PTS as a last resort...you might have found your boy and girl could have cohabited ok without the stress of 2 females vying to be top dog.


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

Hayley337 said:


> i really appreciate all of the advice, i agree that no one knew the dogs as well as we did but the vet did know both dogs as they had dealt with both of them alot since they were pups.
> 
> I suppose i will just have to live with the guilt now, i hope my babies can forgive me for being such a terrible owner, sorry angels


It sounds like you were just trying to be responsible on the advice of a very rubbish vet by what i can gather. 
There are manyy problems that come with owning more than one dog, some of these things are found out by trial and error, some things are given as advice by vets or friends. 
Just because your dogs get on well one day does not mean they will every day. Dogs are living animals who have a mind of there own, that is why we love them so much, but with that comes the chance they can have a bad day just like us, or be grumpy, excited or any other emotion. Some dogs are nervous some are very bold, it is these personality's that attract us to them in the first place. 
Unfortunately when you have more than one dog in the house this needs to be managed, i have 3 chi's living in the house and a rotti x dobe. The dobe x is so large he is not left alone with the chi's not that we think he will hurt them but he has got the power to do so if he chooses. The chi's are also crated seperatly when we go out because they do argue some days the same as people.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

Hayley - I am really sorry your girls got put to sleep - although I would not have done the same in your situations I *can* sympathise - it's a scary and horrible situation to be in and (forgive me if I'm wrong) but from what you've said I am guessing you are not overly experienced in a wide range of dog behaviour/care? (ie any dogs you have had have chugged along quite easily up to this point)

I agree with the others that I would probably look for a new vet - this one does come across as needle happy - not even pausing to see if there is a reason for a sudden attack - you say he's known the dogs their entire life and this was totally out of character? then he should have questioned this and helped you avoid losing the babies you *obviously* loved

I hope you stay on the forum - tell us about your lovely Harley and keep us updated on his recovery. The poor boy has a lot to go through and will struggle a bit - a lot of us have had traumatised dogs and we can give you support and advise on retraining and re-socialising him to help prevent him developing any nervous issues

I can totally understand *why* you had the girls euthanised - fear and the shock at the time are very powerful - so let's move forward with Harley and his recovery.

Try not to feel too guilty and remember - no many people think straight in an emergency without a lot of practice


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## Reverie (Mar 26, 2012)

I've just read this thread and am so, so sorry for what you went through. Although I would have definitely never have made the same decision as you I can understand that you were probably a bit traumatised.

I too think it was very irresponsible of your vet to put two healthy dogs to sleep over a fight, and to take your decision when you were so upset and probably unable to think things through. 

I hope your boy makes a full recovery. 

All the best. xxx


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I agree with everyone else on here, I would not have put two healthy dogs to sleep over one fight, and I'm sure there would have been people on here who could give advice. But what is done is done and if you ever get a bitch in the future, make sure she's spayed or done after the first season so you don't get the same problems again.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Hayley337 said:


> something tragic has happened and i need advice please read..
> 
> Me and my boyfriend live in a house with 3 dogs, 1 male staff called Harley (7 years old), 1 small female staff called Tara (1 year and 7 months old) and 1 american bulldog called Lainie (1 year and 8 months old)
> 
> ...


Lots of this post does not add up IMO- you werwe present when this fight broke out but did not think to remove Tara from the situation whilst you sorted the other two dogs?

You were there so know the exact circumstances but are asking a group of people who have never met your dogs "why this happened" and you instantly had 2 dogs PTS on the advice of a "vet" who wanted your dog muzzled in his presence with or without actually seeing her?

All a tiny bit fishy to me.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

no i was not there, my boyfriends mother was the only one homw, i was at work.

she managed to remove tara from the situation and put her in the garden and then managed to get Lainie off and take her upstairs. 

She then ran Harley to the emergancy vets and i met her there.

what is fishy?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I imagine she had a moment of total blind panic when it happened. I know I would.


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Also no, I don't think you made the right decision at all quite frankly and it's a shame you didn't ask for advice before putting two dogs to sleep.


Totally agree with this.

Im sorry about what happened but i don't think these dogs deserved to be PTS.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks everyone, i am distraught, i thought doing that was the right thing to do
i didnt think we would have been able to keep them all in the same house?
i feel so foolish and absolutely gutted that i didnt come here first and think more into the situation, i'm only 19 years old and this is by far the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to me, the house afterwards was like a blood bath. i obviously was not thinking rationally. but thank you for all of the feedback i just hope my girls will forgive me in heaven


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Don't beat yourself up to much. 

I've seen bull breeds fighting and it's not nice. 

I just hope that everyone reading who own packs realise what can happen when dogs are entire (male and female)

Particular breeds I.e bull breeds/Akitas/mals can be a problem. If you keep a pack, or part of entire then the risk of fighting massively increases.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

A totally tragic situation for everyone, but I hope lessons have been learned and if you ever consider finding another dog for your family, the OP asks questions before hand. This was truly awful, I'm sorry for those dogs, I'm sorry for the OP and I could willingly thump that vet.


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## theothersparticus (Jan 8, 2012)

This must have been a horrifying experience for your and your boyfriend's mother and I can understand you thought at the time you were doing the best thing. Try not to beat yourself up about it now, the most important thing is to make sure that Harley gets well, both physically and emotionally and there are a lot of people on this forum who can help with that.

Please stay around as we'd all like to know how Harley gets on and don't ever be afraid to ask for advice, I've asked some pretty weird questions and got a lot of sensible, reasoned advise.

I agree that your vet has given you some really bad advise and think you should find someone prepared to ask the 'why?' and not just PTS 2 healthy dogs, which I imagine they happily charged you for.

Good luck for the future.


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

Hayley337 said:


> no i was not there, my boyfriends mother was the only one homw, i was at work.
> 
> she managed to remove tara from the situation and put her in the garden and then managed to get Lainie off and take her upstairs.
> 
> ...


Dont take it too personally i know that is hard. It's a forum of animal lovers who will happily give you a opinion, the problem with a forum is you wont like every opinion you get. It puts you out there for criticism im affraid.

Its very hard for us to give you our opinion on why it all occurred as we were not there and have not met your dogs. The thing is we do know that they had not been spayed yet, this will always cause dogs to react differently than normal.

It is only our opinion that you should not have had your dogs put down, and we all understand that this must be very upsetting for you. Unfortunately the problem that comes with being a bunch of animal lovers is we hate to hear storys like this, and we cant help but be a little critical as a animal has been put to sleep because of someones actions.

This is not in anyway a dig at you, and i really hope you dont take it as one. I am truly sure you thought you were doing the right thing with the help of professional advice but unfortunately he was wrong. I would probably ring someone now who monitors vets, i am not sure who would do this but i am sure there is someone you could report him too, this could save another dog from having the same fate and another owner feeling the same upset you are feeling now.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

I believe you contact the Royal Veterinary College if you have concerns about a vet?

Hayley - where are you (just a town/city/rough area of county - we don't want to stalk you  ) - there may be someone on here that can recommend a really good vet to you

Oh and how about you start another thread about Harley and tell us a bit about yourself - I think this thread has served it's purpose beyond maybe finding you a vet that will communicate better

It's all to easy for us as pet owners to forget that vets are the animal equivilent of a GP and trust them too much about all aspects of pet care - they are not ultimate gurus

It's also all too easy for them to forget that they are only that level and especially when faced with something they are not comfortable with - ie a behaviour issue in a so called 'difficult breed' like the bull breeds - and resort straight to euthanisation

However find a good vet and you are set for life - I'm moving in a fortnight and busily sourcing a case of sedatives and dungeon equipment so I can kidnap my vet and take her with me - I *trust* her and don't want to find a new one


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm so sorry you and your dogs went through this- owning all bitches (bar one) I know how terrifying a fight between them can be, and with mine being terriers it can get very nasty fast. Honestly, when bambi and Kuki (litter sisters) started fighting I did coincided having the aggressor evaluated to see if she could be 'fixed' or whether she was a lost cause  I feel awful about that now as I moved her in with my mum permanently and when me and kuk visit she and bam cuddle up like they did as pups. It was dues to kukis season that bambi started on her.
In fact, this was two years ago- when I was 19, so times the size if my yorkies by what- 100, and ican see why two staff 'sisters' could make you think euthanasia may be nesesary. But I will admit, I want to pinch our vet for not telling you it was premature (my vet told be I was bein stupid when I said bambi was getting agressive- he compared her to his wife!)

I would say though, ill never again have two so close in age- I'm going to have at least a full years gap between dogs, and never ever havin litter mates again... Ill leave that to the more experienced by far.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you for all your supportive comments i really need it right now, it isnt getting any easier, i can distract myself for a short time but the day always ends in tears. I live in a town called Middlesbrough in the UK. Where are you all from?


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I do think its easy for people to say what they would or would not have done; and to come across as harsh.. and thank god its never happened to me I don't know what I would do.... but if two of your dogs nearly killed another one of your dogs and pulled his eye out (thats a bit more than a spat) then it must have been really difficult...

Would you ever trust them again, would you have to leave them all permanently seperated forever, (with two dogs hard enough but with three? Is that fair on the dogs) because of their breed and history they would have been impossible to rehome. Interesting to hear what a behaviourist might think - obviously based on what is posted as of course hasn't met the dogs etc.

Maybe the vet saw the injuires and thought how severe they were adn was worried about it happening again or what the dogs futures were.

It may well have been caused by the season I am certainly not an expert but it sounds like it could play a part from what people say... and maybe the third dog joined in when tensions were running high.


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

We are from everywhere lol, some from all over the world. I am living in cornwall, was living in devon not that long ago but found my landlord in my house having a go at my dog so i uped and left and now staying at my mums till i find a new place. Thats not easy with a dog tho lol

Have a look around the forum there are some more upbeat posts that might cheer you up. Some of the people on PF have a very good sense of humor. I find myself on here alot since my car became very unreliable and its helping to ease the boredom of living in the total middle of nowhere with no way out the village lol.

It will be hard for a while, but i am sure your dogs wont hold it against you.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

this is exactly what i was thinking at the time, how would we be able to keep all three in the house? surely you cannot seperate them all for life?

and yes i think that people are underestimating just how bad it was, the whole downstairs of the house was covered in blood. Lainie and Tara looked like two red dogs. it was a truely horrific experience i never expected in a million years.

Thank you for understanding x


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

I am currently near S****horpe but moving up to Stanley in County Durham in a couple of weeks 

there's a sticky at the top of the group called the Member's Map that shows where a lot of members are ish


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

i will check it out now, thanks


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## HandsomeHound (Sep 1, 2012)

So sorry to hear about your awful experience Hayley. You did what you thought was right at the time.


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

It's done now. 
As others have said it was probably hormones as one was just coming out of season and the other was maybe due.
What an awful thing to have gone through. You must be devastated.
I hope Harley is ok. You might need to read up on the problems having only one eye will present for him. I am just down the road from you, Filey.
Sending Hugs!


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you both very much x


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

Dont beat yourself up too much, concentrate on the poorly chap.


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

IndysMamma said:


> I am currently near S****horpe but moving up to Stanley in County Durham in a couple of weeks
> 
> there's a sticky at the top of the group called the Member's Map that shows where a lot of members are ish


bring your wooly hat and scarf....


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Just uploaded some pics of him after his opp in a new album  hes doing so well cant believe how much progress he has already made


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

What a dreadful experience for you and everyone involved  I think some members have been overly critical and harsh with their replies. I have four dogs, and thankfully, for the most part, they rub along well together. However, if one of my dogs killed or seriously injured one of the others, I cannot say what the outcome would be for the attacker. I may feel that, given the severity of the attack, that the most responsible thing would be to have the dog who instigated the attack put to sleep.

It is easy to judge others when you have not walked in their shoes.

I hope Harley makes a full recovery and that you can in time forgive yourself for decisions that were probably made in the heat of the moment and whilst you were still in shock. 

Also, no-one can say for sure why the attack happened in the first place, and why it was so severe, without having been there and witnessing the whole thing.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you for understanding, i cannot express enough how un expected it was, especially as they had both been brought up with Harley and well socialised with many dogs in the park! not once had they ever shown any aggression. Thank you for the kind comment x


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

It must have been horrific to go through, I've never been through anything like that so I don't know how I'd react & I'm sure there are others who feel the same on here  I'm so very sorry for the loss of your 2 girls & sending healing vibes for your boy x


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you so much x


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hayley337 said:


> this is exactly what i was thinking at the time, how would we be able to keep all three in the house? surely you cannot seperate them all for life?


People do separate multiple dogs and live that way for the rest of the dogs lives. It's not a way I'd want to live though and the smallest slip up can result in serious injury or death. I think a lot depends on the home set up too, there is no way I could keep 2 dogs completely separated in this flat, not long term anyway, I could make do for a few weeks if I had an entire female as well as a male I guess.

I'm so sorry for what you went through. It's not the decision I'd have made, not right away anyway, but what's done is done and you followed the advice of someone you should have been able to trust. I really hope your boy recovers quickly and is soon back to his usual self.


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## brackenhwv (Mar 28, 2010)

So sorry to hear what happened. At the end of the day , dogs are sentient beings and we don't know canine language in it's nuances, so as to what kicked it all off, no one will ever know.My sister had a 5 yo german shepard, took in a Rhodesian pup, both bitches, eveything was fine until the Rhodesian hit 18 mths, when puberty etc kicked in, she took an intense hatred to the shepard, there had been nothing bad between them, and she had to keep them seperated until the shepard died some years later.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Also very sorry to hear what you have been through, I understand the posters comments about how they wouldn't have PTS but 'hindsight is a wonderful thing' as they say and its much easier to be judgmental (although I don't think that was most people intention) from afar. It must have been a horrible experience for all of you.

I also second the opinions about perhaps changing vets but then also agree they are only GP's I am actually surprised how little they know about behavioral and training issues and its alarming as they are probably the first person most people turn to in most instances. I know they have to learn about all animals but then most go on to specialize in one particular area and with dogs being such a popular pet I would like to think they might try and be a bit more clued up at least one vet in each practice should have some knowledge or know where (and when) to turn for advice anyway.

I hope that Harley recovers well and is not too traumatised by his ordeal


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## Booties (Nov 23, 2012)

Just want to pop in and add that I'm very sorry for your loss. This must have been a horrible thing to go through and you must be feeling guilty enough already. Sometimes shock and fear can force us to make snap decisions, and sometimes those decisions turn out to be bad ones. Hindsight is a bitch, I'm afraid.

Obviously when you're staring at your beloved family dog with one eye hanging out, a house covered in blood and your boyfriend's mother trying to frantically explain a situation, you probably don't think; "well! better pop online and see if there's a forum for this!"

I don't think I would have had the bitches put to sleep, at least not so soon, and both of them... But who knows what we would actually feel if they were put in your situation?
I'm a vegetarian, and I like to think I wouldn't kill and eat a cow if I was starving to death and it was my only option... But I can't honestly say that, because I've never been faced with such a dramatic situation before.
I think you did what you thought was the right thing, especially when advised by an idiotic vet... So please try not to beat yourself up about it.

I wish your remaining dog a smooth recovery, and I hope you'll stick around. We all learn a lot from each other here, and we'll all be willing to help you out if you ever decide to get another bitch.

Again, really sorry for everything you've had to go through...


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2012)

Hayley337 said:


> Me and my boyfriend live in a house with 3 dogs, 1 male staff called Harley (7 years old), *1 small female staff called Tara (1 year and 7 months old) and 1 american bulldog called Lainie (1 year and 8 months old) *


if it's any consolation hayley , it was probably never destined to work , you had two highly strung breeds there that are well renowned for dog to dog aggression so so close in age and both were bitches. just a pity you didn't find this place before deciding to introduce a 3rd dog most would have probably advised you against this


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

i can see what you mean now, i dont know how i could have ever been so naive.

We had Harley first, and then bought Lainie and then adopted Tara as someone wanted rid of her fast.

Do you think if i had got them spayed, this wouldnt have happened?

I want to know where i went wrong to avoid making the same mistakes again, not that i will be buying a new dog anytime soon! was the age gap between the two girls too close is that why they teamed up together? i just dont know


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2012)

Hayley337 said:


> i can see what you mean now, i dont know how i could have ever been so naive.
> 
> We had Harley first, and then bought Lainie and then adopted Tara as someone wanted rid of her fast.
> 
> ...


it was nothing to do with you , it were the dogs and their breeds hayley - rule of the thumb with these breeds is ; if you can't always supervise, the dogs should be crated because fights will break out and that is a certainty , i doubt spaying would have made a difference once fights had started to break out.. there's a saying

males fight for breeding rights , bitches fight for breathing rights..


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you for the advice i really apprerciate it x


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Hayley337 said:


> i can see what you mean now, i dont know how i could have ever been so naive.
> 
> We had Harley first, and then bought Lainie and then adopted Tara as someone wanted rid of her fast.
> 
> ...


It is impossible to say what went wrong, but to be fair anyone in your position would have left them had there been a responsible adult present, which there was. But as Diablo says, it is probably not a good idea to have two bull breeds unless they are always supervised and crated if you are out.

I know of someone who had two staffies who lived together all their lives till about five years old, then one day the owner came home to find that one had killed the other.

I am in no way bashing bull breeds; they are not my cup of tea but like any other breed, they have their traits and those traits need to be worked with and managed.

You are awfully young to have taken on the responsibility of three dogs, and it is done now. Nothing you can do except love the one you still have and be very careful the next time he goes out. he could well have developed a fear of other dogs and it would not be a good idea to get another dog for a long time yet.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Many dogs live happily together for years, but some suddenly take a dislike to one another. From what I understand, two males will sort it out between them, shake hands and then go back to being friends again, however bitches once they start to argue, don't get over it and can fight until one is badly injured. Consequently I thought long and hard when we decided to have two dogs about which sex to get for the second dog. I would be awful to build up a relationship with the new dog only to have to rehome her if things went badly. Luckily they got on perfectly. Tora the older dog by thirteen months, didn't care if Jodi bossed her around so long as Jodi kept her snout out of her food bowl. Jodi was only told off once by Tora over this and was quite happy to obey that rule. There was only one occasion that something approaching a fight happened. Jodi was outside in the garden and I started a game with Tora in the house which got quite lively and Tora was bouncing around getting more and more excited. Jodi barked to come in and, I assume, misunderstood what was going on and appeared to think Tora was attacking me, so leapt in growling quite fiercely and started attacking Tora. Soft old Tora didnt notice Jodi really and kept on bouncing. I stopped them both and told them to settle down. Poor Jodi seemed to be mortified by what she had done and went and sat in the corner and stayed there for about twenty minutes, head down and looking very sad. It took her quite a while to come round and become herself again. Thankfully that was the one and only occasion.

I'm so sorry about your dogs and it is a shame that the vet caught you at a vulnerable moment. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Try and put it all behind you now and look after your remaining dog, he will have had his confidence shattered and will need your support more then ever. He probably can't understand what happened either and he will miss the other dogs as he recovers despite what happened. Good luck to you both.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

what do you mean by left them? left them while they were fighting?

thank you for the comment, i just thought i knew the dogs so much and never dreamt they would hurt one another, which shows how naive i was. Ive just realised too late how careful you actually have to be with dogs, and i hope other people can learn from my mistake, i know i have. 

and dont worry Harley is getting all the love an attention he can possibly get!! he's living like a king with all the fuss he is getting! and wouldnt dream of getting a new dog any time soon its going to take me a while to get over this, those girls were irriplaceable to me and the thought of getting a new pup makes me feel sick

thanks for the comment


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you  oh dont worry hes getting spoiled rotten!! and rightly so.

And yes its really sad as he keeps walking around the house sniffing trying to find the girls  its heart breaking


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Hayley337 said:


> what do you mean by left them? left them while they were fighting?
> 
> thank you for the comment, i just thought i knew the dogs so much and never dreamt they would hurt one another, which shows how naive i was. Ive just realised too late how careful you actually have to be with dogs, and i hope other people can learn from my mistake, i know i have.
> 
> ...


I meant left them with your boyfriend's mum. I'm not blaming anyone, just that you thought they would be safe and they weren't.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> it was nothing to do with you , it were the dogs and their breeds hayley - rule of the thumb with these breeds is ; if you can't always supervise, the dogs should be crated because fights will break out and that is a certainty , i doubt spaying would have made a difference once fights had started to break out.. there's a saying


Its not always that fights will break out - I would like to think that something like this is not the norm; I know plenty of bull breeds who live happily together without so much as a cross word; Bull Breeds are not that terrible and aggressive.... and I don't think you were overly niave, I am sure most people would have done the same in leaving them together without worry and just in this instance it went terribly wrong.

It maybe that the third dog just got really wound up by events...

Who is to say that spaying would have made a difference, its something you will never know... you didn't have intentions to have another dog of the same age by the sound of it but took in a dog in need.

I know this question has come up before re the two bitches and I would be wary of two bitches, only because of what everyone says (and I like boy dogs better), but in reality the houses I know with two bitches (not many but my only sample group) they live together quite happily.

Is it interesting that one female turned on a male, and then the other female turned on the male too as back up? as most people are talking about bitch to bitch agression, rather than two girls turning on a male? Or does being hormonal do all sorts of crazy things?


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Hayley337 said:


> i really appreciate all of the advice, i agree that no one knew the dogs as well as we did but the vet did know both dogs as they had dealt with both of them alot since they were pups.
> 
> I suppose i will just have to live with the guilt now, i hope my babies can forgive me for being such a terrible owner, sorry angels


Really sorry that you have had to experience this xxx

You did what you thought was right at the time every one will have their own opinion.. 
But it is yourself had had to deal with the situ..

I wont condemn or praise you for your actions as you have dealt with the issues how you thought when tension and stress levels were very high..

I came home me to a blood bath once.. two bitches.. one rising 2 the other 3 years of age.. Had to have one stitched back together.. I took the decision as it was quite obvious they were not going to tolerate each other again after trying several times and me being rushed to hossie in my own blood bath in an ambulance with bad bites..

It took 8 months to find her a home I was really panicking if I was making the right choice.. I had some supposed expert dobie breeder telling me that I should keep the dogs and deal with the probs.. regardless of me having two small kids.. and that if I had to I should keep them in seperate rooms.. 
They hated each other.. Its shocking what people will tell you to do.. especially when they have not been or are not in your shoes..

Really hope your other dog has a speedy recovery..

Does sound like an hormonal issue and both the bitches were of the age of wanting to be top dog which can also cause issues.. xxx

Bitches will fight to the death.. where as males more just prove a point.. xxx


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have a friend who has multiple BC's. The 2 who were causing her problems were an 11 year old neutered dog, and a 5 year old entire dog. After living together for 5 years in a kennel together, the younger dog suddenly took a dislike to the older dog, causing him severe injuries every time they fought. My friend kept them separated, never even walked them together and ran her house like a military operation with notes on doors advising what dog was where etc. However she had children and the dogs kept accidentally meeting each other with the result being the younger one wanting to end the life of the older dog.
In the end she sent the younger dog back to the breeder but she never figured out why one took a sudden dislike to the other after living peacefully for a number of years. She even had the entire dog neutered but it didnt make any difference. She also had 2 other BC's but the trouble causer was completely fine with those 2.


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

i'm not going to critise i just want to give you a big hug
you did what you thought was best and now you need time to heal and find some peace


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

8tansox said:


> A totally tragic situation for everyone, but I hope lessons have been learned and if you ever consider finding another dog for your family, the OP asks questions before hand. This was truly awful, I'm sorry for those dogs, I'm sorry for the OP and I could willingly thump that vet.


^^^ This!

I don't think I would have had the girls PTS like that, if I couldn't cope with the worry of keeping the 3 together then I would have rehomed one or both of the girls, rather than having them put down 

However, until we are faced with a situation like that, we never really know what we'd do. They are all powerful dogs and I wouldn't want to see a second fight between them so I really don't know.

I am so sorry for what you've been through, it's not nice!


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> I don't think I would have had the girls PTS like that, if I couldn't cope with the worry of keeping the 3 together then I would have rehomed one or both of the girls, rather than having them put down


If it had been a different breed of dog; but who would rehome a staffie that had nearly killed a dog for whatever reason? and how could you have known would be someone who could either manage the dog or not want her for the wrong reasons?

Even if it was the season thing, I can imagine would be really hard to try and rehome her, and to keep all three dogs safe in the meantime?

Its really easy to say what people would do but when faced with the reailty of it must be really hard.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

All I can say is how sorry I truely am for you. What an awful thing to happen. I wouldnt understand it if it were me either.
Sorry. X


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> Also no, I don't think you made the right decision at all quite frankly and it's a shame you didn't ask for advice before putting two dogs to sleep.


I agree with this. I can't quite believe the you had two perfectly healthy dogs put to sleep for a dog fight, which quite frankly was probably waiting to happen. Very sad for the girls 

EDIT: Just read further on in the thread, see now that it was very poor advice from vets. I'd definitely put a complaint in about him Hayley, if you are able.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I know people don't agree but what would they have done themselves?


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## terrierist (Sep 26, 2012)

I can't help but feel some people have been overly harsh here. Put yourselves in the OP's shoes....her dog was badly attacked, lost an eye....house a blood bath. 

Also - many are berating the Vet. But be sensible, we are talking 2 breeds that are notorious that have severely injured another dog. Rescue centres are full to bursting. What future would these girls have had?

I believe the Vet DID advise sensibly. I believe Hayley made the right decision to have her girls PTS. Ok, in an ideal world they would have been rehomed but life isn't ideal is it?

Hayley - you have my sincere sympathies. I Hope Harvey heals well and I hope you can forgive yourself over what must have been a dreadful situation.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

What a terrifying experience for the person who was there at the time. With such powerful dogs I am not surprised there were injuries. The bitches being entire probably didn't help but for future reference you can't just assume that neutered dogs won't fight either. My Mal bitch was a moody entire girl and is just as moody a neutered girl, in fact she's always moody now where as there were times when entire that she would be pleasant to the other dogs, now she doesn't get the 'feel good' hormones at all and is a right cow! To a lesser degree the boys have had scraps on just two occasions but nothing like Kali launches, I think bitches are far worse personally and two on your boy, just dreadful.

The decision you came to would have been what I'd likely have done because you would never quite trust them again and would have to be very watchful over all of them constantly - I know because I have to do just with my Kali although she does at least stop when yelled at and has never caused the need for vet treatment on the other's. I have always said if the day comes that she seriously harms one of the dogs I would have to consider the future of all the other's before deciding if I could manage her but our baby gate system works well and she's not nasty as long as one of us is there to keep an eye on her. It's not nice living with separate packs and you have to always be watchful. Living like that is pure crap I can tell you, so don't beat yourself up about your decision. Far better than rescue kennels or another dog being attacked in the future, just passing on a problem IMO.

I hope your poor boy makes a full recovery and that you can take the decision you made as one that was best for you in your situation. It's difficult to know how you feel, how awful your emotions must be at present but unless we have been in that situation anything we say is what we 'think' we would do - hopefully none of us will ever walk in those shoes!

Take care. xx


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Ghastly situation for you and of course for the dogs.

I am really sorry for you, but alas I do agree that you should find a new vet. If your dogs were usually good natured, and there were no previous problems, then the vet could/should really have explored other options with you.

But of course you trusted the vet to steer you right, and you were probably in shock. 

I really hope Harley makes a good recovery.



Sending best wishes.


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## lily74 (Jan 13, 2012)

Hi

I am sorry to hear you have had to make this awful decision to have your dogs pts

I am not going to judge as I have not experienced what you have done, and I cannot even attempt to think how I would feel seeing my beloved dog with his eye hanging out at deaths door.

What ever you do dont feel guilty! You did what you thought was best at the time on your vets advice, right or wrong we all make mistakes and tbh rehoming proberbly would have been your only option and rescues are bursting as it is and finding a home for two dogs that have nearly killed another would have been near impossible I would think, so what life would these dogs have had stuck in kennels anyway

You are the same age as my daughter, and I know she would have struggled with such a big decision.

My dog is neutered but it has not changed how he is towards other dogs, in fact when my sister's dog was neutered he became more aggressive towards other dogs, so it doesn't always make a difference to aggressive behaviour. Not sure if it applies to females though.

My motto is unless you have walked in anothers shoes you really dont know the pain and anguish they went through to reach their decisionxxx


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

thank you all again for all responses, i had no idea that people would care so much its overwhelming thank you all so much, i have taken in everyones opinions even the negative ones, maybe if i could go back i wouldn't have rushed into such a rational decision.

But also a point i left out is that my boyfriends 9 year old sister lives here to, which made the situation 10 times worse. i don't personally believe it would ever happen but whats to say that it couldn't have been her? i can't rule anything out anymore. and i would feel awful if i re homed them and then the same thing happened again to the new owners, i miss those dogs with all of my heart they are simply irreplaceable, even after what they have done they were my life they will always be a part of me.

so thank you all again i really mean that xx


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I'm sorry for what happened, but no i don't agree that you did the right thing. 

Many people live in a house where they keep dogs separate as they will fight, malmum being one of them.

I'd have kept them separate and then assessed the situation first.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I really can't make a comment on this. I just wanted to say I'm so sorry you have to go though this awful situation. 

I hope Harley make a speedy recovery.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> What ever you do dont feel guilty! You did what you thought was best at the time on your vets advice, right or wrong we all make mistakes and tbh rehoming proberbly would have been your only option and rescues are bursting as it is and finding a home for two dogs that have nearly killed another would have been near impossible I would think, so what life would these dogs have had stuck in kennels anyway


It would be really hard to find a rescue to take them - as we have heard some rescues are refusing to take staffies and ourselves - could we be confident in a dog that had done that much damage to another dog - it would be nearly impossible to rehome

Keeping two dogs seperate maybe but three dogs - and with a child in the house

I don't think the dogs would have turned on a person but if you lived in a terraced house could you keep three dogs seperate for ever what kind of life is that for anyone - and it wasn't like they were even alone it was when someone was there..

After assessing the situation must be difficult because you may think all was OK. until the next time?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Hayley337 said:


> thank you all again for all responses, i had no idea that people would care so much its overwhelming thank you all so much, i have taken in everyones opinions even the negative ones, maybe if i could go back i wouldn't have rushed into such a rational decision.
> 
> But also a point i left out is that my boyfriends 9 year old sister lives here to, which made the situation 10 times worse. i don't personally believe it would ever happen but whats to say that it couldn't have been her? i can't rule anything out anymore. and i would feel awful if i re homed them and then the same thing happened again to the new owners, i miss those dogs with all of my heart they are simply irreplaceable, even after what they have done they were my life they will always be a part of me.
> 
> so thank you all again i really mean that xx


For future reference, you might like to note that a dog that is aggressive to other dogs is most unlikely to be aggressive to humans.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I do live with two packs and some people here think it's not fair on the other five to be limited to one room for their entire lives, being shuttled around behind gate after gate while Kali growls at them for no reason. Britches, Bruce and Marty were the first dogs here in that order and everything was fine until Kali came into the mix. Their whole lives took a drastic downwards toll, no more freedom to run about the house, go upstairs and out in the garden when ever they want. Sometimes it gets you down and you have a tear or two but it's what we have to do daily now. If age determines who 'goes first' the likelihood is my little guys will never again know a life they once had - and that is really quite sad for us if not them. Britches now has Cushings disease and it's heartbreaking for Emma to see her struggle just with life let alone be shut off in room to room. She will definitely be the first to go and as she was the first to arrive it's truly very very sad, if that's not bad enough by an error of judgement and a gate left open a few months ago she ran into the kitchen straight into Kali and was immediately attacked. She suffered a cut eye and a puncture to her neck, poor little Britches who wouldn't hurt a fly and was just trying to get away. Emma felt so guilty for letting her guard down and cried for days, her little now a bit dopey (sorry Britch) fat dog through her disease attacked through no fault of her own.

I would never ever allow a situation like this again in my house and if I could have known for sure that Kali would have been properly cared for would have re homed her through Mal rescue years ago but despite her doggie faults she has a heart of gold with people. In hindsight all the other dogs are paying the price for my keeping her but there are so many horror stories of dogs being neglected that it's a chance I just couldn't bring myself to take.

It's no easy ride, not for us or the dogs and not one I hope I'll ever have again. You are virtually a prisoner in your own home, opening and closing gates everywhere you go. Not good at all!

ETA - Although I agree a dog aggressive dog is not likely to attack a human, a human can get caught up in redirection while trying to break up a fight. This happened to an experienced Mal owner of many years a few years ago, she needed hospitalisation and many repair ops plus rehab. Re direction is very dangerous and although the dog isn't intending to attack you, in the heat of the moment.......


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2012)

Hayley337, I'm sorry for what happened to your dogs. I hope your older male recovers uneventfully.

When I was a kid, my fox terrier tore in to my hampster's cage and killed my dear pet hampster. I was devastated. But my mom explained to me that the dog was not bad he was not evil, he was not "jealous" of the hampster, he was simply acting on hundreds of years of selective breeding. Obviously we did not euthanize the dog for doing what he was bred to do.

We humans breed these dogs to have a very strong drive to do certain things, then we turn around and condemn them for exhibiting that which they were bred for. 
A bully breed doing what he was bred to do is no different than a greyhound killing a rabbit or a fox terrier killing a hampster. You have to understand your breed, your dog, take intelligent precautions, and manage what you can't train. 
A dog who will fight another dog and do damage is not necessarily a danger to humans anymore than that rabbit killing greyhound is a danger to humans.

No matter what the breed, you really need to do your research. APBT and AmStaff folks have a saying, "never trust a pit bull not to fight." This is true of all former fighting breeds. 
It is a fatal mistake to assume that just because the dog played nicely and sleeps next to his housemate, that he will never get triggered in to a fight.
Generally most fighting breeds don't "turn on" until full maturity, 2 to 3 years. So now you have these pet owners who have 2 to 3 years with a dog being all happy go lucky with others all of a sudden turns in to Cujo, and they are shocked. Its not shocking, its genetics. 

Know your breed. Know how to manage them safely.
If you have a fighting breed, be prepared to crate and rotate for life, have and know how to use a breakstick, and don't leave them out together unsupervised, no matter how well they seem to get along.


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

Malmum said:


> I do live with two packs and some people here think it's not fair on the other five to be limited to one room for their entire lives, being shuttled around behind gate after gate while Kali growls at them for no reason. Britches, Bruce and Marty were the first dogs here in that order and everything was fine until Kali came into the mix. Their whole lives took a drastic downwards toll, no more freedom to run about the house, go upstairs and out in the garden when ever they want. Sometimes it gets you down and you have a tear or two but it's what we have to do daily now. If age determines who 'goes first' the likelihood is my little guys will never again know a life they once had - and that is really quite sad for us if not them. Britches now has Cushings disease and it's heartbreaking for Emma to see her struggle just with life let alone be shut off in room to room. She will definitely be the first to go and as she was the first to arrive it's truly very very sad, if that's not bad enough by an error of judgement and a gate left open a few months ago she ran into the kitchen straight into Kali and was immediately attacked. She suffered a cut eye and a puncture to her neck, poor little Britches who wouldn't hurt a fly and was just trying to get away. Emma felt so guilty for letting her guard down and cried for days, her little now a bit dopey (sorry Britch) fat dog through her disease attacked through no fault of her own.
> 
> I would never ever allow a situation like this again in my house and if I could have known for sure that Kali would have been properly cared for would have re homed her through Mal rescue years ago but despite her doggie faults she has a heart of gold with people. In hindsight all the other dogs are paying the price for my keeping her but there are so many horror stories of dogs being neglected that it's a chance I just couldn't bring myself to take.
> 
> ...


i feel for you, i live like that a bit except for my dog is stranger agressive, i cant open the door and let anyone in, he goes out in the garden watched with a muzzle on as he lunges at people thru the fence, i worry constantly that he will escape the house and attack someone and as for walks they are a nightmare, sometimes i think i'm just biding my time 
before i have to face a pts but i struggle on cos he loves me and i love him, but the qaulity of our lives can be quite poor


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

blitzens mum said:


> i feel for you, i live like that a bit except for my dog is stranger agressive, i cant open the door and let anyone in, he goes out in the garden watched with a muzzle on as he lunges at people thru the fence, i worry constantly that he will escape the house and attack someone and as for walks they are a nightmare, sometimes i think i'm just biding my time
> before i have to face a pts but i struggle on cos he loves me and i love him, but the qaulity of our lives can be quite poor


Yes it really is awful living on the edge isn't it? You notice you hardly ever see pics of mine together - there's a reason for that. Even Christmas day and present opening has to be managed. Can't even put the prezzies under the tree because we had a fight one year over 'claiming' who's they are. My two youngest girls can't really abide the Mals because of the way they have changed this house and although Emma loves Flynn, has taken weeks off of work to help me nurse him after his ops she, like the other three of my kids, hates what effect he's had on me with his behaviour at times. I have always been a very confident dog owner but never imagined these dogs could be so intimidating, not only to the other dogs but in some ways to my life. I often struggle to take my beautiful Flynn out, wondering what may happen, heart in my mouth, only to find that usually he's the perfect gentleman BUT if he goes off he really goes off and it's quite scary. Still wouldn't be without him though because at home he's a real darling and walks are only a small part of my life with him.

Definitely NOT a breed for the weak this lot though!


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Yes it really is awful living on the edge isn't it? You notice you hardly ever see pics of mine together - there's a reason for that. Even Christmas day and present opening has to be managed. Can't even put the prezzies under the tree because we had a fight one year over 'claiming' who's they are. My two youngest girls can't really abide the Mals because of the way they have changed this house and although Emma loves Flynn, has taken weeks off of work to help me nurse him after his ops she, like the other three of my kids, hates what effect he's had on me with his behaviour at times. I have always been a very confident dog owner but never imagined these dogs could be so intimidating, not only to the other dogs but in some ways to my life. I often struggle to take my beautiful Flynn out, wondering what may happen, heart in my mouth, only to find that usually he's the perfect gentleman BUT if he goes off he really goes off and it's quite scary. Still wouldn't be without him though because at home he's a real darling and walks are only a small part of my life with him.
> 
> Definitely NOT a breed for the weak this lot though!


social occasions are a nightmare here too, i'm dreading this christmas as blitz will spend some time in his cage when i have visitors and as for finding myself a fellla, well thats not going to happen lol
i admire your dedication


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Lol - it's not dedication, it's a must do thing. We have no other choice really. Just wish my ex OH had told me he was planning a surprise because I know what breeder I'd have gone to and it wouldn't have been some BYB miles and miles away in Doncaster. Could hardly tell him to take her back could I? 

She's lucky really (even if the other dogs aren't) because she could have been abandoned with her attitude had she gone to someone who didn't like her ways, alternatively she could have been a one dog part of a family and loved her life - so in that respect she isn't lucky. Ah well!!


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Lol - it's not dedication, it's a must do thing. We have no other choice really. Just wish my ex OH had told me he was planning a surprise because I know what breeder I'd have gone to and it wouldn't have been some BYB miles and miles away in Doncaster. Could hardly tell him to take her back could I?
> 
> She's lucky really (even if the other dogs aren't) because she could have been abandoned with her attitude had she gone to someone who didn't like her ways, alternatively she could have been a one dog part of a family and loved her life - so in that respect she isn't lucky. Ah well!!


a must do thing yes but also dedication


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## Ducky (Nov 23, 2008)

firstly i havent read past page 3 of this. 
secondly, i dont really understand the point of the post in that u needed advice? uv already had the two dogs put to sleep which was highly unneccesary. 
im sorry this happened to you, its never nice when things like this happen. and i hope your boy makes a full recovery. but there really is nothing else to say coz the dogs have already been destroyed


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Those of you who think it is the wrong decision.. Have a think...

You would let rescue take them.. This has been a one off.. but a very unpredictable.. one off.. Would you of liked these girls to go into rescue.. Quite a few rescues would them selves have these dogs PTS as they are more than likely going to spend the rest of their lives in a small kennel.. thats a long time for young dogs.. rescue would have to disclose the info to any new owners.. 

Would you liked to have received one of these dogs into your home knowing they had nearly killed another dog.. so unpredictably.. 
I know all dogs are unpredictable.. but these dogs are now a bigger risk.. 
Would you have taken that risk and risked yourself getting severely bitten...

Now I love my dogs and if I hadn't of found Roxy such a good home.. I think in the end she would have had to be put to sleep the stress is awful being on tenter hooks trying to make sure that one of your small children dont go through and let the dogs into the same room by accident...

And honestly my ex.. when he seen the state of my arm wanted to have her pts cause its sheer panic.. and shock..


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

no i still won't have them PTS as a first option though.

I'd keep them separately with me and try reintroducing, if not i keep all dogs if possible constantly separate and people do it all the time.

I think the dogs were very hastily pts and IMO very wrongly so.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

i asked for advice because i wanted a better understanding on what had happened and maybe understand why.

thank you guys, yes it was a very hasty decision and now looking back i wish i could turn back time and do things differently. but at the time we thought they had killed harley, we didn't know if he was going to make it through surgery. also with a small child in the house things were more complicated, i don't expect everyone to understand but i hope people know that this was not just a stupid teenager making an immature decision, because i loved those dogs more than anything in the world, honestly, i am broken.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

and quite frankly not to sound rude to 'ploof', but whilst i was cleaning up the blood and gore from the walls, sofa and carpet, my first instinct was not to search the internet for solutions or advice forums. I trusted my vet, which at the time i thought was an experts opinion


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## ChewieFudge (Jul 6, 2012)

Hayley337- what a horrible situation for you to experience and please don't feel bad for the decision you made.

No one else knows your dogs or what happened that day, so no one is really in the position to tell you what caused your dogs to fight other than to offer advice on possible reasons why they did.

I believe you did make the right decision to have the two girls put to sleep. 

After a severe fight like this, you would never be able to fully trust them again. Also, if you were able to re-home them, you could not guarentee the new owners would manage them correctly- thus leaving them to an uncertain future.

You had given them a loving, caring home- rescuing one, and they have been well looked after. They are breeds of dogs which are flooding shelters across the country so finding a suitable home for them would have been hard.

They did not know they were going to be PTS, they have not been mistreated and ultimately in this horrid situation- you were responsible.


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

Hayley337 said:


> i asked for advice because i wanted a better understanding on what had happened and maybe understand why.
> 
> thank you guys, yes it was a very hasty decision and now looking back i wish i could turn back time and do things differently. but at the time we thought they had killed harley, we didn't know if he was going to make it through surgery. also with a small child in the house things were more complicated, i don't expect everyone to understand but i hope people know that this was not just a stupid teenager making an immature decision, because i loved those dogs more than anything in the world, honestly, i am broken.


I completely missed the bit about the small child in the house when i first read your posts. When it comes to having a child in the house it make it very very different. 
I would be very scared to have a child in the house with dogs that may end up having a fight it only takes seconds for a child to get in the way and i would never risk my child for a dog, as much as i love the dog my children will always come first. 
My friends dog is very reactive to other dogs, me and my friend went for a walk and her dog was on a long lead a lady came jogging by with her dog and my friend reacted as quickly as she could but dogs can move so fast when they are reacting to something in a aggressive way. It genuinely scared me and i have been asked if i will look after her dog while she is on holiday but her dog is too unpredictable to be around my children it would only take seconds for one of my kids to be in the way of another dog. If i had no kids it would be no problem.
I think the choice you made was a very hard one, you went on vet advice and now i know you have children i may have reacted the same way. This post has been playing on my mind all day, i keep asking myself how i would feel trying to manage something like that afterwards and i really dont know which way i would swing.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I'm very sorry to hear this, I cant imagine what you've been thru 

I honestly would have done the same. The odd scrap is fine not everyone is gonna like everyone all the time. But for two dogs to go after another nearly killing it to me thats crossing the line.

I personally would not be capable of keeping several dogs seperated and to me dogs should be joys to have not stressful. 

Last week Sophie had a go at my one cat Soda, she tore a bunch of hair out as well as leaving a gash in Soda lower back  I cried like a baby asking Sophie what was wrong n why did she do that?!

Ive taken new steps towards keeping things calm and so far weve not had any scuffle but if Sophie went in to actually maim and kill Soda Im not sure what Id do.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2012)

momentofmadness said:


> Those of you who think it is the wrong decision.. Have a think...
> 
> You would let rescue take them.. This has been a one off.. but a very unpredictable.. one off.. Would you of liked these girls to go into rescue.. Quite a few rescues would them selves have these dogs PTS as they are more than likely going to spend the rest of their lives in a small kennel.. thats a long time for young dogs.. rescue would have to disclose the info to any new owners..
> 
> ...


I think trying to decide what to do once you come home to a house bathed in blood is kind of like closing the barn door after the horses have escaped.

Ideally, you dont get multiple dogs of this kind of breed without the knowledge to prevent this sort of thing to begin with.
An ethical, knowledgeable breeder would never sell a staffie pup to someone who already had a bully breed pup of the same age.
An ethical, knowledgeable rescue would never adopt an additional dog to an inexperienced home.
Any knowledgeable breeder or rescue would have advised the new owners on the breed tendencies and to keep them crated or separated when not around to supervise. 
That sort of thing...


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

If dogs can inflict this kind of damage to dogs who they share their own home with, regardless of being entire and just out of season I doubt very much that the owners would have ever felt adept at re introducing these dogs - nor would it be fair to 'experiment' with Harleys life yet again. There are scraps (like I have) and there are out to kill attacks where enormous damage is inflicted and if not stopped death likely would ensue.

At the end of the day I personally would never take on a known aggressive dog after what Sid went through with Diesel, or even after how we live in this house, even though my dog can at least be called off. Having asked the other four people in this house what they would have done they all said the same, pts and concentrate on the poor boy who* was the victim*. None of us would ever want to put the boy in that sort of danger again - or any other possible dog for that matter. With so many non aggressive dogs in rescue why should they take on dogs with such high aggression thresholds? Languishing in kennels for goodness knows how many months is no life for a dog and as Blitz once said there are worse things than a peaceful death for a dog and kennelling indefinitely is one of them.

Sleep well op and know you have done the responsible thing - responsible for Harley, responsible for the nine year old, responsible for the dogs in question and responsible for any other dogs that they may have taken a fancy to attack in the future. If only others were as responsible we may have less attacks all round!


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2012)

Hayley337 said:


> thank you for the comment, i just thought i knew the dogs so much and never dreamt they would hurt one another, which shows how naive i was. Ive just realised too late how careful you actually have to be with dogs, and i hope other people can learn from my mistake, i know i have.


hayley please don't blame yourself. 
you had two bull breed bitches teetering on the edge of maturity - if this had not have happened now it could have been something that happened later on down the line once the dogs had reached full maturity , bitches are the most strangest of creatures and you've done what most with knowledge would not attempt (i know i wouldn't) and honestly your probably quite lucky things did not happen sooner.
it would be really silly for anyone to say they 100% know and trust their dogs and i think you've learnt a valuable lesson in the most horrible of ways , for you as a family and for poor harley
you couldn't have foreseen what was about to have happened if you knew very little about both breeds and their history , others would have seen it coming a mile off and trust me when i say it really were only a matter of time , i've known people who own stafford bitches who have faught to the death , dogs that have always got along prior to any event , i have a really good friend who owned three american bulldog bitches , two litter sisters who later went on to attack and kill their dam (i'd been saying for months things were about to kick off as the two younger dogs again were reaching maturity) again someone who thought they knew their dogs and never thought or imagined something so devastating could happen
it's not a nice thing to have to be faced with and in all honesty while people are upset you choose to have your girls put to sleep , i can't see any other option that was available to you other than a swift rehome before harley came home as there was absolutely no way you could have had him home with both girls there , things would have kicked off again after such a savage attack tbh , the vet knew your circumstances , we don't and i don't think anyone in a professional capacity knowing what had happened , seeing harley's injuries would have put you wrong or gave you bad advice in all honesty , rightly so their first thought was for harley who had done nothing wrong , longterm they probably knew there was no other solution for your girls as lets face it , after that , you most probably wouldn't have been comfortable with them in your home after never being able to trust them again and poor harley would have been walking round on eggshells or living a life totally separate in a home which was just as much his , as it were theirs.
for what it's worth , i think you did the right thing however much others disagree , so stop feeling so guilty , enjoy harley and spoil him. xx


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

This thread has literally kept me up all night. I kept wondering how i would feel in this situation and to be honest i cant imagine one little bit. 

This is a situation anyone could find themselves if they are not experienced, which lets face it who is when they are young or a first time dog owner.

When i look back to when i was younger i was going to get myself another dog, i wanted a DDB bitch that was about a year old. Luckily i had a well advised friend who told me that with a bitch and a dog already in the house this would probably be a disaster waiting to happen. I did not believe her one bit, i was going to get the dog anyway until she eventually managed to talk me round which took a good couple of days. I did not believe her on how wrong it would go until she explained it much better. I was lucky i had a friend training to be a vet nurse, she told me some story's of dogs that had come in with injury's they had gained from other dogs they lived with. 

I think back and this is easily a situation i could have found myself in years ago had it not been for my friend. I had lots of other friends who had dogs and older friends and they all said it would be a great idea. 

This thread has really got me thinking, i have tossed and turned all night assessing every little situation that could have given one of my dogs the same fate. The point i am trying to make while rambling on, is this could have happened to me easily. I have looked after friends dogs and let them sleep down stairs with my dog thinking very little of what could actually happen. 

I also thought back to when i first had my daughter, we had a friend who had a staffy with hearing and sight problems. It was a lovely dog most of the time but sudden noises or fast movements would startle her. 

Most days i would pop in for coffee, i would let my daughter play with the dog, who clearly enjoyed my daughters company. One day my daughter was sat on the carpet with the dog and got up to come and see me, on the way she stubbed her toe and started screaming. My friends dog jumped up and chased towards my daughter. I managed to pick her up and my friend managed to settle her dog and everything was ok. Years later my friend had her own baby, and the dog had become older and even more hard of hearing. The baby noises really upset the dog and my friend decided that her dog was too unpredictable to live with the baby. Not that she was aggressive, but her hearing and sight problems caused her to react differently than other dogs would to something that scared her. 

Anyway she sold the dog to a girl who lived a few streets away who's mums dog had passed away a few months before. The girl turned up in her nice shiny car to get the dog. It went away fine but about 2 hours later the girl turned up looking very flustered. She had walked back to my friends house because the dog was in the car and would not let her back in. She had stopped off at a local supermarket to get milk, when she cam back the dog was reacting very aggressively to her when she tried to get back in the car. It had also trashed her very nice and shiny car. My fiend had no other choice but to take the dog back, and as her baby was not safe with the dog it lead to it being destroyed as she knew she would never find a home for it. 

I remember thinking how harsh that was, but when my boyfriend asked me if i would want to live with a dog that reacts badly to noises it does not understand with my daughter in the house, it was a no brainer i said no. It was not until i put the shoe on the other foot so to speak that my answer was different. 

When i look back i realize how naive i was to have even let my daughter play on the carpet with the dog, even if i was only a few feet from them and when i think back to all the different dogs i have met and all the different situations i have been in, it would have been very easy for something to go wrong very quickly. 

I hope you are feeling better today and not beating yourself up over this, because you shouldn't.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

thank you for all feedback again, and thank you to everyone who can understand, and to those who cant, i am sorry but please make sure you read all of the info before commenting, i left some things out in the original post but have revealed more vital info throughout the thread.

i loved those girls more than life itself, its hard enough getting out of bed on a morning without people making me feel guilty  i probably shouldnt have asked if i had made the right decision seeing as though its already done now. but thank you anyway x


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> For future reference, you might like to note that a dog that is aggressive to other dogs is most unlikely to be aggressive to humans.


True, but as others have said a child can easily get mixed up in the fight and be badly injured.



ouesi said:


> Hayley337, I'm sorry for what happened to your dogs. I hope your older male recovers uneventfully.
> 
> When I was a kid, my fox terrier tore in to my hampster's cage and killed my dear pet hampster. I was devastated. But my mom explained to me that the dog was not bad he was not evil, he was not "jealous" of the hampster, he was simply acting on hundreds of years of selective breeding. Obviously we did not euthanize the dog for doing what he was bred to do.
> 
> ...


I really dont think you can compare a dog killing a hamster with what happened with Hayley's dogs. That is very unfeeling.
And if you really think dogs should be kept separate and caged all their lives - well no wonder I dont agree with a lot of your posts. That is abhorrent to me.

Hayley, I think you did the right thing. You could not possibly have kept the bitches and there is no way any rescue would have taken them so you only had one choice.

It is not up to your vet to order you to either have them put to sleep or otherwise, he can only guide you - I would totally ignore all the anti vet posts. He was in a difficult position and did what he thought was right and I am sure he is feeling bad over it too. There is most definitely no way you could 'complain' about the vet for heavens sake. I know for a fact my vets would have suggested exactly the same thing.

Personally I think it is totally unfair to keep dogs separate in a house. I have owned many bitches, up to 4 at a time, and never had a cross word apart from one that would kick off every so often over food but subsided when I whacked her.
I think quality of life is far more important that quantity and I would not hesitate to put a dog to sleep in Hayley's situation. Some dogs could easily be rehomed into a single dog home but not dogs that had gone this far in a fight or dogs of this breed. Who would want to risk it.

So Hayley, hold your head up and accept it was a terrible accident with tragic consequences and you too the responsible way out.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Mods, shall we close this thread? I think its been over and done now. Best of luck, Haley no hard feelings.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Please let us know in another thread how Harley gets on. Hugs and get well wishes to him from all of us here. xx


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Wiz201 said:


> Mods, shall we close this thread? I think its been over and done now. Best of luck, Haley no hard feelings.


Sorry, but why do you want the thread closed - it is surely up to Hayley and as she keeps replying I assume she is getting comfort from the posts that are not berating her.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

thank you all so much


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

i have posted a few pics in my photo album of him and will keep you all up to date with his progress  i would quite like to make a thread when he is fully recovered so i can compare how he is to how he was, although im not too sure how to post pictures on the thread itself? oh well im sure i will work it out


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Sorry, but why do you want the thread closed - it is surely up to Hayley and as she keeps replying I assume she is getting comfort from the posts that are not berating her.


Oh fine whatever, I thought it was better if another thread was opened.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wiz201 said:


> Mods, shall we close this thread? I think its been over and done now. Best of luck, Haley no hard feelings.


Certainly if Hayley wants it closed, then I shall close it; she only has to say. But it is her thread and unless anything nasty goes on, which I don't believe it has, then no one else can close it but her.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I really dont think you can compare a dog killing a hamster with what happened with Hayley's dogs. That is very unfeeling.
> And if you really think dogs should be kept separate and caged all their lives - well no wonder I dont agree with a lot of your posts. That is abhorrent to me.


Maybe you're being unfeeling in your assumption that a rodent is less of a pet than a dog. Not understanding how much I interacted and cuddled and cared for that hampster.

FYI, crate and rotate does not mean kept separate and caged all their lives. But whatever... Clearly making sure to get a dig in at me is more important to you than trying to see things from a perspective outside your own experience.

Sorry Hayley337, don't want to derail this in to a tit for tat, I'm done now


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

I have read up to page 10
Thank you Hayley so much for posting your story. I have a little staffie girl, so sweet natured, but only 3.5 months. I am a first time owner. Your post has made me think. In the back of my mind i would like another dog, a rescue dog. Now iiif I do I will stay away from another bully breed bitch. Your posts, AND all the others have made me realise how incompatible they MAY be, and that I MAY be too inexperienced to cope with any fall out.
So Hayley you are 19. Was it you that really had to give the nod to the vet to allow him to proceed, or was it your parents??
How long was it after the accident that the girls were put down?
I have read many times that bull breeds prefer to be 'only' dogs in a house. Now I know why. I used to do a lot of horse riding when I was a teenager. There was an alsatian bitch at the stables. It was legendary with all the riders at how difficult it was to get into the riding stables. She bit so many people and in the end had to be put down. The stables should have removed her from the mass public ages before. I always wanted a male dog because of this , but I was told over and over that staffie females are so much more loving.
I feel for you. I am sure you wanted to keep your girls. Dont worry. A dog will love you forever xxxx


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Have to say that my last two dogs were a male staff and a female jack russel, lived together for over twelve years and NEVER a cross word. Had three other staffs all of which lived alongside foster dogs with no problems - males btw. But I personally have never had two staffs at the same time. Sometimes with two breeds who won't back down in a fight you can have problems - not always but sometimes. I now have three Malamutes, known not to back down in a fight so the occasional punch ups we've had, we've had to step in and stop it. That's why I never leave them together when I go out - just in case!

Just a mere snap from one Mal to another can escalate into a full blown fight, the kind of thing you need to be aware of with certain breeds.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

BabyBlu said:


> I have read up to page 10
> Thank you Hayley so much for posting your story. I have a little staffie girl, so sweet natured, but only 3.5 months. I am a first time owner. Your post has made me think. In the back of my mind i would like another dog, a rescue dog. Now iiif I do I will stay away from another bully breed bitch. Your posts, AND all the others have made me realise how incompatible they MAY be, and that I MAY be too inexperienced to cope with any fall out.
> So Hayley you are 19. Was it you that really had to give the nod to the vet to allow him to proceed, or was it your parents??
> How long was it after the accident that the girls were put down?
> ...


I have to say that my newfie girl is the sweetest natured you could wish to find, but then she is a newfie. I don't think gender is as important to finding the right temperament, as just reading up and being careful. I doubt Hayley's tragedy would have happened had there just been the one of each sex, but two bitches together can cause a lot of problems.


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I have to say that my newfie girl is the sweetest natured you could wish to find, but then she is a newfie. I don't think gender is as important to finding the right temperament, as just reading up and being careful. I doubt Hayley's tragedy would have happened had there just been the one of each sex, but two bitches together can cause a lot of problems.


My Edie is a staffie. She has the sweetest nature you could imagine - but then Hayley said that of her girls. Maybe I can get a rescue boy staffie when edie is a bit older, say 2?


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

the girls got put down on the night that it happened, it was a joint family decision between me my boyfriend and my boyfriends mother, as we are the ones who live there, obviously my boyfriends mother was just so concerned about her 9 year old daughter who lived in the house with us. 

i was always the person who argued that its the way you bring them up, and all the horror stories about bully breeds, i always thought oh that would never be my dogs they wouldnt hurt a fly. and to all those out there who are thinking the same, please open your mind, i would hate to think that someone would ignore a post like this when the same could happen to anyone. but i have to honestly admit, if someone else posted something like this i probably wouldnt think twice about it happening to me. i cannot express enough how much i trusted those dogs, i never in a million years saw it coming. so please if you are reading this in a similar situation to what i was thinking 'that could never be my dogs!' it could! because thats what i used to think.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Came across this thread yesterday.

First of all, Hayley, I'm sorry for your loss. It must have been very frightening, very stressful to find out that your girls had turned on your older male dog, despite having been brought up with him. It's very easy for us to sit behind a computer screen and say that you should have done your research into the breed first, that these dogs don't reach maturity until 2-3 years, that until that moment, they could be fine with other dogs and then suddenly go on the attack. Great, but complacency sets in, you see your dogs get on well together for over a year and you fall into a false sense of security. You shouldn't, but you do.

It's all well and good for us to sit behind our computer screens, maybe with our dogs peacefully sleeping beside us/at our feet/on our laps etc and say that the vet was a bit needle-happy and that you were a bit too ready and willing to accept his advice, but in reality, what would your options have been?

1) Keep all 3 dogs and crate them whenever you have to leave them on their own, maybe get a behaviourist in. Great in theory, if you have the money, but what if you don't, or what if the girls attack again before the behaviourist has a chance to arrive? What if next time, it proved fatal?

2) Keep all 3 dogs and keep them separate, perhaps for the life of the dog/s, live like Malmum (no offence intended Malmum  ) behind closed gates and forever being on your guard, always watchful and always careful that the dogs cannot possibly get to one another while you rotate them room from room. That's no life for you or the dogs.

3) Rehome 1 or both girls. As has already been said, rescues are full to bursting, you present 2 girls who have history of aggression (yes, I know it's a one-off case which may or may not have been hormone related, but would Joe Public delve that deep into the dogs' history and find out why? Would the rescue?) Chances are they'd be as good as dead anyway unless the OP managed to get a No Kill rescue to take them. 

4) Act on your vet's advice.

I honestly don't know what I'd have done if my 2 turned on each other and I hope to Dog I never have to find out. My dogs have had the odd handbag moment (I think many 2+ dog families will have experienced the same), but nothing approaching the level of aggression your girls exhibited and I hope I never have to find out the hard way.

It also makes me feel very grateful that Milly's crated when I go out, so that situations like yours shouldn't - _shouldn't _have a chance to arise. 

Hugs from me and licks from Max and Milly.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

No offence taken the being able to roam freely around house and garden is something my dogs will never know again - least not until Kali goes. Wicked as it sounds when my dogs times begin to come I would hope Kali would be the first, for no other reason than the freedom returned to the others. Britches I know will be first because of her Cushings disease, very unfair as she was the first to arrive and only knew a normal life for just over a year when Kali came.


If I could turn back time but we don't have that luxury!


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Just wanted to say I'm thinking of you, you obviously loved your girls very much & I can't begin to imagine how hard a decision it must of been for you and your family & obviously what your all still going through. 
Sending your boy big hugs & wishing him a speedy recovery x


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I just wanted to say that it is not only bitches this can happen with. I know someone whose 2 young standard poodle males ripped the older male to bits and killed him - while out in the garden with plenty of people around though not directly supervised.

It is a dreadful unavoidable accident.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

i never expected this thread to get so much responce! and didnt expect people to be this caring and supportive! thank you all so much from the bottom of my heart. Just hope that people learn a valubale lesson from the thread more than anything x


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I think you have been very brave sharing your story Hayley, even if I at first was quite shocked by what happened.

I hope you can stick around on the forum, let us know how your boy gets on with his recovery. x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

happysaz133 said:


> I think you have been very brave sharing your story Hayley, even if I at first was quite shocked by what happened.
> 
> I hope you can stick around on the forum, let us know how your boy gets on with his recovery. x


Totally agree with this. You took the flack you listened to the negatives as well as the positives and you've learned a lot yourself - shame it was in the way it was though. We think of our dogs as our family, sometimes our babies but we should never forget that at the end of the day they are still animals and animals can act on instincts we don't always see coming.

When my 'baby' was in a scrap recently he showed me a side I never thought he had in him, always thought he'd try to get away from conflict because he's such a big softie. I know his breed is renowned not to back down but 'not my boy' I always thought. That cuddly, kissy dog who rolls on his back for belly rubs can surprise you sometimes when the animal side comes out, I suppose we should never under estimate their capabilities eh?

Multi dog households can be a dream but they can also have their downsides - as long as we prepare for both we should be catastrophe free. Hopefully!


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

definitely agree 100%, i didn't know my girls were mentally capable or nor physically, i have had play fights with them before and i was always able to over power them, i know that sounds silly as they are obviously not being aggressive towards me whilst play fighting, but still i always thought that i could over power them under any circumstance. but when this happened my boyfriends mother was giving all of her strength to try and break up the fight (she has the bruises to prove it ) but nothing would break their focus, they didn't even flinch. never under estimate your dogs is all i can say to everyone x


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2012)

Hayley, I think you did the responsible right thing, for the dog you are left with, for the child in the house and probably actually for the two that were PTS as well. You are brave as this is not an easy subject for anyone and I see that intermittently on this thread there are those who have wonderful knowledge, insight, foresight and hindsight that allows them to judge situations that they have only a flash of info on!

Hope your dog is recovering well x


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## Ariana1985 (Oct 26, 2012)

I feel so sorry for you but I feel you made the right decision for your dog and family xxx hugs to you 
I read someone's post about bull breed -it's not that they will all be dangers or turn on each other ,it can happen with any breed xx


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## jonb (Nov 15, 2012)

so sorry to read this,hope Harley gets over this,didn`t realize when I read the thread rainbow bridge what had happened


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2012)

Ariana1985 said:


> I feel so sorry for you but I feel you made the right decision for your dog and family xxx hugs to you
> I read someone's post about bull breed -it's not that they will all be dangers or turn on each other ,it can happen with any breed xx


i never said they were dangerous and i certainly don't believe that to be the case with bull breeds at all , quite the opposite , they make GREAT family dogs.

as a rule of the thumb responsible breeders / breed clubs will always advise re - staffords , bullmastiffs , american bulldogs and the like , will always advise you don't keep dogs of this kind of the same sex together , if you do , you take HUGE risks. if you cannot supervise even dogs of the opposite sex they always advise you to crate them when you cannot be around.



> Some people like more than one dog in the house, Staffordshire Bull Terriers are very focused on their master and family but they enjoy being with other dogs. It is not advisable to have two male dogs in the same household because if they fight they will never get on again. Bitches on the other hand get along but two dominant bitches will almost certainly start fighting. A better combination is a dog and a bitch as a dog will endure a bitch with attitude. Obviously they have to be kept apart when the bitch is on heat if you dont want puppies. It is also best to keep Staffords in separate rooms at night unless they are supervised.


male or female



> Are American bulldogs aggressive towards other dogs?
> Often their strong drives and dominance cause American bulldogs to be aggressive towards other dogs. They love to play rough with each other, but unfortunately as they mature (1-2 yrs.) they often become aggressive with each other and fight. Intact males rarely get along with other males. Sometimes females will fight with other females and sometimes males and females will fight. It is very difficult and scary to break up a fight between two tenancious dogs such as AB's. Careful planning must be done when deciding to own more than one dog. Socializing a young dog can help him/him get along better with other dogs but does not guarantee that he will never want to fight.


American Bulldog (UK) Faq's



> Bullmastiffs will normally adapt well to other animals in the home if they are brought up with them. Many aspects of dog to dog aggression are affected by a lack of socialization as a puppy, although this is not always the case. In general, bullmastiff dogs do not get along with other males and bitches may not always be tolerant of either sex. There are always exceptions but it is less likely that two same sex bullmastiffs will get on with each other, especially when they reach sexual maturity. If you are planning to buy two bullmastiffs, a dog and a bitch are considered to be the best option. A reputable breeder will not sell two same sex puppies into one household.


i could go on and on regarding bull breeds.


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

jonb said:


> so sorry to read this,hope Harley gets over this,didn`t realize when I read the thread rainbow bridge what had happened


thank you, he is coming along brilliantly bless him, such a strong boy  x


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Good I am glad he is ok. They are tough aren't they. My lil staffy was knocked over by a car once and kicked by a donkey. (Not on the same day) She shrugged it all off. 
We have 3 dogs too and I was telling hubby your story, we agreed how devastating it must be. Hope you are coping too. Sending hugs.


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## sligy (Jul 3, 2012)

Luz said:


> Good I am glad he is ok. They are tough aren't they. My lil staffy was knocked over by a car once and kicked by a donkey. (Not on the same day) She shrugged it all off.
> We have 3 dogs too and I was telling hubby your story, we agreed how devastating it must be. Hope you are coping too. Sending hugs.


My ex had a springer, was a real lovely dog. My ex did forest management and took the dog with him. He had thought the dog was in his land-rover, he got in and reversed and felt he had driven over something, so he pulled back forward and went to have a look to check he had not got a puncher, it turned out he had driven over his dogs head not once but twice. He was horrified, he thought he would have him put down

He rushed him to the vet and 2 days later he was out and within a couple of weeks was back to normal. The only lasting damage he had was he had wonky eyes, but apart from that all was ok.

He was the most lovely dog, i was gutted when we split up cos i wanted to keep the dog but it was his so i had no chance. He also just shrugged it all off.


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## suze23 (Jun 3, 2011)

big hugs OP 


Those saying rehome the fighting bitches.... have you seen the number of staffs in rescues?! those that have already shown aggression - what chance do they have to be placed in a good home and hav ea good life?!

sit them in kennels for a good few months, assess them and then have them pts once they fight again with something else? its a possibility

OP i fully agree with you to do the best by your dogs.....and i believe you did.

hope your lad is ok x


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

Hayley337 said:


> the girls got put down on the night that it happened, it was a joint family decision between me my boyfriend and my boyfriends mother, as we are the ones who live there, obviously my boyfriends mother was just so concerned about her 9 year old daughter who lived in the house with us.
> 
> i was always the person who argued that its the way you bring them up, and all the horror stories about bully breeds, i always thought oh that would never be my dogs they wouldnt hurt a fly. and to all those out there who are thinking the same, please open your mind, i would hate to think that someone would ignore a post like this when the same could happen to anyone. but i have to honestly admit, if someone else posted something like this i probably wouldnt think twice about it happening to me. i cannot express enough how much i trusted those dogs, i never in a million years saw it coming. so please if you are reading this in a similar situation to what i was thinking 'that could never be my dogs!' it could! because thats what i used to think.


I suppose it all escalated so quickly..
At least it was a group decision; you dont have to feel solely responsible. This is the crap life throws at us.
My Edie is the sweetest girl, just like your lovely girls. I cant imagine her dong anything wrong. That is why I am so grateful to you for posting. It makes us all aware again of all the things that COULD happen.
xxxx lots of love


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## Hayley337 (Dec 4, 2012)

yes they are VERY tough!! he's just sat on the floor next to me chewing on his bone right now as though nothing has changed  and i am glad that people are learning from this thread, at least people can find something good out of it. i hope nobody ever finds themselves in a situation like mine ever. i know i have learnt a very big lesson from the experience xx


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