# Siberian Kittens!



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

We just had our first litter of Siberian kittens. Mom is a Torbie with white, and dad is a Tarnished Silver classic tabby. Our bigger female had her litter tonight; 1 cream/red silver mackerel tabby male, 2 red classic tabby males, 1 dark silver mackerel tabby male, 1 gold classic tabby female, and 1 gold mackerel tabby female. We'll be confirming the colors in a few days. And since we need pics (they're all still wet here):


----------



## Tamiyamumma (Sep 13, 2012)

Too beautiful for words!!! Congrats to mum and midwife!! Xx


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Very cute, congratulations.

Wouldn't you want to use a clear coated silver? Just wondering  I breed for clear coated silvers in my breed, wouldn't want to use a boy with enough tarnish to be mentioned when describing his colour.
How does it go pairing with reds/tortie?


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Gorgeous and look forward to seeing them grow. But for beginners in colours like me, what is tarnished? And what makes them gold please?


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Tarnish is rusting, a brown tone or marks over the silver. Undesirable in my breed, we want clear silvers with very little to no tarnish.
They are just referred to as (black, lilac, chocolate etc.) silver, no mention of tarnish when listing colour. But I don't know about Siberians...


----------



## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_congratulations, look forward to seeing them in afew weeks when they are all fluffy and eyes are open, do you have pictures of mum and dad._


----------



## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Tarnish is rusting, a brown tone or marks over the silver. Undesirable in my breed, we want clear silvers with very little to no tarnish.
> They are just referred to as (black, lilac, chocolate etc.) silver, no mention of tarnish when listing colour. But I don't know about Siberians...


I have often wondered what colour our Isak (NFC) is, his breeder had said he was a silver tabby but he looks more brown to me but not the same brown as our Maine Coon, I am now wondering if he could be a tarnished silver.

Koaleo your kittens look lovely, you must be so proud. looking forward to watching them grow and seeing lots of pics.


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Gorgeous.....


----------



## ellsbells0123 (Oct 4, 2011)

Oh babies, love babies 

Looking forward to seeing them grow xXx


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

sharonbee said:


> I have often wondered what colour our Isak (NFC) is, his breeder had said he was a silver tabby but he looks more brown to me but not the same brown as our Maine Coon, I am now wondering if he could be a tarnished silver


Silver fur is white at the base, that can be a way of telling a low grade silver from brown or another colour.


----------



## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks Spotty cats, our Isak isn't silver then as he is more cream at the base, this is him as a kitten at 6 months old....



This is how he looks now at 5 years old....


----------



## jess91 (Jun 28, 2011)

sharonbee said:


> Thanks Spotty cats, our Isak isn't silver then as he is more cream at the base, this is him as a kitten at 6 months old....
> 
> 
> 
> This is how he looks now at 5 years old....


We DEFINITELY don't get to see enough of him :001_wub:


----------



## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

sharonbee said:


> Thanks Spotty cats, our Isak isn't silver then as he is more cream at the base, this is him as a kitten at 6 months old....


I think he looks like a silver. One in need of a bath with silver shampoo though. Over here we call that 'tarnishing' rufism and try to avoid it as much as possible.


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Isak is a silver, ive had kittens born to brown tabby and silver and i get the tarnish, prefer to do silver to silver now better colouring on kittens. 

OMG how did i miss these gorgeous kittens, they are stunning and i adore Siberian's. xx


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Isak is gorgeous and as said a silver.



catcoonz said:


> prefer to do silver to silver now better colouring on kittens.


Interesting how things differ between breeds, too many silver to silver matings strip the contrast out in Ocicats with silver being a colour inhibitor.

Have also seen it in my kittens, I have a black silver who's got 2 silver parents and I mated her to a silver. Worst litter of silvers I had.
A Somali breeder who runs a silver program has found the same thing. 
Perhaps it's related to the ticking we have in our breeds.


----------



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

Thanks for the compliments everyone. A little more about our Tom ZZ. Our breeder did recommend that we breed him even with the tarnishing as he was supposed to come out gold. He has had other cats that started out silver with tarnishing and turned completely gold by the time they were 3. We are still in the dark as to if he will turn gold or not since he is still young.
We are still waiting on our second litter, she is ready to pop any day now. We should have more kittens by the weekend.
Update on the kittens: Now that they are growing some they are showing their real coat colors. It looks like we have: 1 gold classic female (she's a really dark gold & black), 1 either tarnished silver or gold torbie female (she is the runt and unfortunately may not make it), 1 silver classic male with white ( very dark almost black silver), 1 red classic male (very very dark red), 1 red classic male with white (a little lighter), and 1 red silver male (the big brute of the litter). 
More pics!! I'll update the pics again when they are a bit bigger.
24 hours old kittens, left to right nursing is the lighter red, the silver, the red & white, & the gold, underneath is the red silver and the tarnished female's tail:









The girls at 6 months, the current mom is Tyen with black stripe, and Sveta with the red nose:









ZZ at 6 months:


----------



## Deb1 (Jun 10, 2012)

What beautiful cats. Isak is stunning, I love him :001_wub:


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Lovely photos 

What's the genetics behind gold? Not a colour I deal with  how can they change from silver to gold? Or is it just that tarnishing is a similar shade to gold so can be mistaken?


----------



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

A sad update. The little tarnished gold/torbie female died this morning. :crying: The other five a doing good and gaining weight fast.


----------



## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

so sorry you lost the litle girl, R I P little one.xxxxxx

I hope the others are ok.xxx


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

RIP Little Baby. xxxxxx


----------



## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

Sorry to hear about the little one.



Koalio said:


> Our breeder did recommend that we breed him even with the tarnishing as he was supposed to come out gold. He has had other cats that started out silver with tarnishing and turned completely gold by the time they were 3. We are still in the dark as to if he will turn gold or not since he is still young.
> Update on the kittens: Now that they are growing some they are showing their real coat colors. It looks like we have: 1 gold classic female (she's a really dark gold & black), 1 either tarnished silver or gold torbie female (she is the runt and unfortunately may not make it), 1 silver classic male with white ( very dark almost black silver), 1 red classic male (very very dark red), 1 red classic male with white (a little lighter), and 1 red silver male (the big brute of the litter).


There you have answered yourself to the question about the stud's colour. He has to be silver or there wouldn't be silver kittens as the dam is not silver.


----------



## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

so sorry to hear about the little one you have lost. RIP little baby


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

So sorry you lost one 

Hope all goes well with your other girls delivery.


----------



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

Regarding the silver and gold genetics. Please correct me if I am wrong.  

From what I understand all silver Siberians are actually gold (locus of which is unidentified), but with a genetic modifier that turns them silver. This is because gold is a modifier of black, not of red. The tarnished silvers, and bi-metallics are due to the silver modifier not being strong enough. I would guess that would be due to getting only one copy of the silver dilution gene instead of two. This would be why he came out as a tarnished silver, and may turn completely gold. I think that the ones that turn gold over time would be due to their melanin levels, and due to the deep color gene (paraphrasing, don't remember the name of it).

So, since he has the genetics for both gold and silver, he is throwing both colors in his litter. We have the dark gold girl, the dark silver boy, and the tarnished silver/bi-metallic girl that we lost. I hope this explains somewhat.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Haven't heard that all Siberians are gold before. He doesn't have 'genetics for silver', one parent must be silver to have silver kittens, it's not something that is carried. 
So being a black silver he's able to carry gold, thanks for the reply 

Have you got photos of ZZ now? I saw the 6 months photo above


----------



## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

I have heard rumours that Siberians have somehow different golden gene than in other breeds. In my previous litter (BSHs) both parents were silvers (clean, no tarnishing/rufism) and they had 3 silvers and one golden kitten. I was aware that the stud was likely to carry golden as his siblings had had golden kittens before. 
In BSHs silvers don't turn into goldens.


----------



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

Here's a couple updated quick pics of our Tom ZZ. Also a picture of our other girl Sveta about to pop.


----------



## danniandnala (Aug 31, 2012)

Gorgeous kitties...she looks ready to burst never mind pop bless her xx


----------



## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Hope all goes well with your girl and hope she has a nice easy birth. 
Sorry to hear you lost the little girl, rest in peace beautiful baby x

Also...thankyou to everyone who explained the colouring of our Isak, I had never heard of silver tarnishing before this thread...you learn something every day. 

Love the pics of ZZ and Sveta.


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Beautiful cats being shown on this thread. Lovely.


----------



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

Update on the babies. The silver & white male failed to gain any weight yesterday and this am. He and the gold female are periodically panting. So, I'm just waiting for my husband to get home with the car, and off to the e-vet we go. I do NOT want to lose another kitten.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Panting? Are they too warm?


----------



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

They weren't too warm we think. Vet was a little stumped as to why they were panting. As of tonight they've stopped. The little silver is failing to thrive though. He was dehydrated and just not doing well. So I'm on sub-q fluids and bottle feeding duty.


----------



## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

Sorry to hear the kittens aren't doing so good.
This is going to be a stupid question, but you did test the parents' bloodtypes before breeding?


----------



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

No, haven't heard of doing that in cats. Hrm...

Anyway our other girl just had to be like her sister and gave birth tonight to 4 little boys, 3 red and one silver. I'll get pics tomorrow.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Congrats on the new litter.

Blood typing is needed in some breeds and not others, perhaps ask your mentor if it's needed for Siberians.


----------



## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

Koalio said:


> No, haven't heard of doing that in cats. Hrm...


Siberians have both A and B, so you may want to test them and make sure that's not what's causing all the trouble. (If dam is bloodgroup B and sire is A, the kittens might die).


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Koalio said:


> No, haven't heard of doing that in cats. Hrm...
> 
> Anyway our other girl just had to be like her sister and gave birth tonight to 4 little boys, 3 red and one silver. I'll get pics tomorrow.





NorthernDarkness said:


> Siberians have both A and B, so you .may want to test them and make sure that's not what's causing all the trouble. (If dam is bloodgroup B and sire is A, the kittens might die).


Omg op you are breeding and you don't no of blood groups,i find that actually alarming seriously.

Say your girl is group b and the stud is A your kitten will die as antibodies from mums milk will attack the kits organs.

Are you a registered breeder? Why didn't your mentor explain this?,i cant believe you dont know this.

Its possible your kittens have died cause you didn't do your research before breeding.

I suggest you google Dr addie feline blood grouping and read up on it its really serious.

And test your cats for there blood groups,google Langford vets,genetic testing.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

NorthernDarkness said:


> Siberians have both A and B, so you may want to test them and make sure that's not what's causing all the trouble. (If dam is bloodgroup B and sire is A, the kittens might die).


The time scale would fit wouldn't it for it to be blood group issues.

'IF' it is cause of this its a shame kittens had to die before the OP knew about blood grouping.

I cant understand a breeder not knowing this I knew this before I got my first breeding girl,its called research.


----------



## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

Koalio said:


> No, haven't heard of doing that in cats. Hrm...
> 
> Anyway our other girl just had to be like her sister and gave birth tonight to 4 little boys, 3 red and one silver. I'll get pics tomorrow.


_fingers crossed for this litter, hope you dont lose any of these, as said by above members maybe its the blood groups of the parents, and thats why your other litter are not doing very well._


----------



## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Did you not do any research before breeding? I am really shocked that you knew nothing of blood group compatibility with the breed you are breeding. 

Do these cats need HCM scanning and PKD testing etc?...if they do have you tested the parents for these conditions too? 

All breeders should read up and find out as much info as possible before even thinking of breeding. Also not just breeders but anyone wanting kittens or any other pet for that matter should also have done their homework before purchasing one too. It is all basic common sense really.


----------



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

Wow. Thank you to the wonderful people who have been kicking me while I was down. I didn't feel awful or guilty enough before I was vilified on this forum for being an irresponsible BYB and kitten killer. Silly me for coming here for help.

No, I did not know that there was blood typing in cats. My mentor, none of the research I did, books I read, or any vet I have consulted has ever indicated that this could be a problem.

I am not perfect. Obviously I didn't do any research in the correct manner. I am only human. Can any of you honestly say that they have never made a mistake with their animals? How many of you that have berated me, feed a grain free or raw diet? How many of you have _never_ lost a kitten? If you did lose one then it must have been because you didn't your homework, or didn't have any common sense right?

Maybe every one of you has gone to the vet and had them question you when you said there was a retained kitten? Then come in with the radiographs stunned that you were right and they couldn't even palpate it, let alone two? I had that happen not 8 hours after my second queen giving birth.

I freely welcome advice given to me. I am a novice breeder. I can assure you that before we have another litter they will all be blood-typed. I can't do what I don't know needs to be done. I can only do the best I can. I am sorry that my best is not good enough for this forum.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Unfortunately most vets are pretty ignorant about breeding cats. A great many books don't mention it either, but that your mentor should not know.... And the stud owner, if you used someone else's. I also see quite a few breeder's pages do mention blood groups.

You can do a simple fairly cheap blood group test from a check swab. If you are in the US then UC Davies, for the UK the Langford.

Dr. Addie - Feline Blood Groups
Cat Blood Group
Blood Type | Langford Veterinary Services
feline blood groups

However it may be a different problem.


----------



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

Thank you Oriental, I wish wish wish I had known earlier. In any of the breeders pages I frequent, I didn't see anything either.

An interesting note, my queen that lost kittens it seems never had any milk production in the front 4 mammaries. I could get a drop or two but none of the kittens ever latched to a front nipple. She now has 4 healthy fat as ticks 1 week olds.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Koalio said:


> Thank you Oriental, I wish wish wish I had known earlier. In any of the breeders pages I frequent, I didn't see anything either


It likely wouldn't be on breeders websites though, but come up via mentors and breeder friends since its apparently a test needed to be done within the breed, not all breeds have blood type issues but in those that do its generally known among the breeders and that info passed on by mentors.

Glad you're other 4 kittens are doing well


----------



## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Koalio said:


> Wow. Thank you to the wonderful people who have been kicking me while I was down. I didn't feel awful or guilty enough before I was vilified on this forum for being an irresponsible BYB and kitten killer. Silly me for coming here for help.
> 
> No, I did not know that there was blood typing in cats. My mentor, none of the research I did, books I read, or any vet I have consulted has ever indicated that this could be a problem.
> 
> ...


I'm sure no one has 'kicked you when down', I for one were just concerned that you didn't know of blood compatibility before breeding or why the breeder you bought your queen from or the stud owner or even the vet hadn't told you... as this will result in kittens dying within the first three days if the queen isn't compatible to the stud.

Before I went into breeding I read enough books and researched into the breeds I had chosen, It took me 30 years before living my dream, as I waited until I was in the right position and all my children had grown up and had homes of their own, this was then my time to do what I wanted to do. Over the years I have done more research than a prostitute changes her knickers and I'm sure she changes them many times during a working day lol.

I contacted lots of breeders for advice and got as much info as possible, I made an appointment with the vet just to talk and for her to go through the costs of snap testing, vaccinations, chipping, blood group testing if I bought a breed which needed it, costs of HCM,PKD etc,she told me which breeds I had thought about which need them, and those which don't.She also gave me prices of a c section just in case, I also searched for stud owners because if I had to travel to the other end of the country with a screaming girl on heat that wouldn't be good. I didn't want my own stud as I feel a stud should only be bought when you are experienced in breeding, we prefer to use others anyway.

After much thought I decided to go for the breed I had dreamed of breeding since I was a young teenager which is the Siamese and Orientals. So all I was saying was breeding shouldn't ever be gone into lightly or until a person is knowledgable of the main things.

Yes there are things I still am not sure of such as what colour points my kittens are going to have, also the sex... not life threatening, just little things, the sex change fairy has visited this litter we have now three times lol. I know a few breeders personally who have been breeding 30 and 40 years who still get the sexing wrong...but I have hope I will get it right one day with at least one litter lol.

As for feeding yes I have tried the raw diet with my cats, some liked it, others didn't. I am happy with what I feed them now.

Yes I have lost a kitten and no it wasn't because I didn't do my homework, some times losing a kitten is unavoidable and can happen to anyone, other times it can be avoidable.

There are other problems which can occur, my first kitten was born with twisted limbs from being squashed in the uterus, with a lot of devotion and massage and physio given to her by me and my husband every 20 minutes for three weeks she was as good as her sister and you couldn't even tell but that was with researching and coming on to forums like this and getting advice.So I hope you carry on visiting the site as none of us have picked on you, we were just worried that you weren't aware of such a major test for blood grouping.

I hope the rest of your kitten do well and continue to thrive.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Op you may have not liked the replys you got I imagine my reply being one,but at least you know know about blood groups.

I still struggle to see why you didn't know the info is all over the internet I found out myself from internet research from a simple google 'breeding cats'.

Anyway whats done is done and no we don't know that's why they died.

Im not perfect either we all do things wrong from time to time.


No one was trying to kick you while you was down.i myself was just really really shocked you didn't know before you bred.

I too hope your kittens continue to do well.


----------



## Koalio (May 26, 2013)

I apologize if my post came off as harsh. I was really suffering after losing the second kitten. Again, I can only do what I know and try to do the best job that I can.

How about some good news? The remaining 4 in the litter are thriving! Only one boy doesn't have both eyes open. They are very quickly going to become a handful.

Our second litter is now at the 3 and 4 day mark. On Sunday she went into labor and delivered 4 big kittens. She stayed all night in the nesting area and didn't come out until morning. When she finally emerged in the morning, she still had an enlarged stomach. I palpated her and found another kitten, so off to the vet we went. I think she had just gotten exhausted the night before. It took 2 doses of oxytocin, but she popped out 2 more kittens. The vet didn't think she had anymore and was shocked to find 2 on the radiographs. The last one out was very petite, but I just don't think she had any room in there.

The older litter:









The new litter of six:


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Losing kittens is always very hard.

Updated photos are cute, I hope you're weighing them daily especially to keep an eye on the littler one.

Will you be getting your cats blood typed now? In case that was the issue.
UC Davis in the US is a reputable lab, I get my cats tests done there. The blood type test is very affordable at $40
Cat Tests


----------



## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_Glad the kittens are doing well, thank you for the update and the pictures, they look gorgeous very cute, keep us updated with lots of pictures please._


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Beautiful kittens.

Losing kittens is heartbreaking and at least you have learnt now about blood testing so future litters hopefully will be more smoothly for you.


----------



## Yorkshire mum (Jul 19, 2009)

Jonescat said:


> Gorgeous and look forward to seeing them grow. But for beginners in colours like me, what is tarnished? And what makes them gold please?


Are you in uk as i am looking at Siberian


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I am in the UK but not sure why you are asking me about Siberians? This is an old thread and I am not a breeder, not do I keep Sibs. (Mine are NFCs)


----------

