# E Collars



## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

Contraversial subject!! Hi all haven't been on for a while,just wanted to share my success with a recently purchased E-Collar.

I have a huge 18 month old Doberman that whilst perfectly behaved when we are alone, refuses to hear me when I recall if there is something slightly more interesting like a another dog in the vicinity.

Have tried all the usual,training classes (did it perfectly for an audience),long leads,treats,toys etc etc but just wouldn't listen when he saw another dog to play with.

Due to the constant stress I got from other dog owners, I purchased an E collar. I studdied the training DVD that came with it,and have been training him daily for the last 2 weeks and he is a completely different dog! I haven't even had to sound the bleeper this week as he has responded totally to my voice. What a superb training tool!

I know lots of people will be up in arms at the thought of electricuting my dog but its not like that at all. The "shock" at low level is nothing more than a static click I get from my husband when he wears his slippers, but it does do the job and frankly I would rather this than him run off and get hit by a car.

Has anyone else tried one with success?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

i personally dont like them, i think all dog training should be positive for the dog.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Nope luckily living in Wales we've been enlightened enough to have them banned. Personally I'd rather train my dog without infliciting any sort of pain on them thanks.


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

There is no pain, its just what you've heard, I even tried it out on my own leg and it just makes you jump!! Just gets his attention thats all!

I don't need to justify myself, its the best thing I've ever tried so if there is anyone out there with a big strong stubborn dog give it a go - Take your time and carry loads of treats and rewards and you will be amazed at the results. I can take him absolutely anywhere no matter how many dogs or kids and as soon as he hears the sound he comes straight to heel,don't even need a lead!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

but you have to admit its not very pleasent is it!


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

6660carrie said:


> There is no pain, its just what you've heard, I even tried it out on my own leg and it just makes you jump!! Just gets his attention thats all!
> 
> I don't need to justify myself, its the best thing I've ever tried so if there is anyone out there with a big strong stubborn dog give it a go - Take your time and carry loads of treats and rewards and you will be amazed at the results. I can take him absolutely anywhere no matter how many dogs or kids and as soon as he hears the sound he comes straight to heel,don't even need a lead!


I dont like them but glad you tried it first, i would not use one but im glad you have sorted things out now good luck


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

6660carrie said:


> There is no pain, its just what you've heard, I even tried it out on my own leg and it just makes you jump!! Just gets his attention thats all!
> 
> I don't need to justify myself, its the best thing I've ever tried so if there is anyone out there with a big strong stubborn dog give it a go - Take your time and carry loads of treats and rewards and you will be amazed at the results. I can take him absolutely anywhere no matter how many dogs or kids and as soon as he hears the sound he comes straight to heel,don't even need a lead!


Nope I'm afraid I don't do things by halves and I always research before I pass judgement and believe me it hurts. Maybe you have a lower pain threshold than me and I imagine your dog proberly does to. Shame he can't tell you if it hurts or not isn't it? I'd rather stick to good old fashioned reward based training for my dogs.

I'd come to heel pretty damn quick myself given an electric shock!:ihih:


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

Of course its not pleaseant, but then neither are choke chains or haltis in my opinion. I've only ever given my daughter 2 smacks in her whole life but she quickly learned she didn't want to get another one!!! 



Doesn't anyone agree,even slightly?


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## KarenHSmith (Apr 20, 2008)

Nope, I have never really heard of them either...


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

Don't agree at all. It has taken 7 months to get my Golden Retriever to stop jumping up people. But after perserverance and rewards today she did it. There is no way I would electrocute her just so I could get quicker results.

I don't hit my kids either.


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

JSR said:


> Nope I'm afraid I don't do things by halves and I always research before I pass judgement and believe me it hurts. Maybe you have a lower pain threshold than me and I imagine your dog proberly does to. Shame he can't tell you if it hurts or not isn't it? I'd rather stick to good old fashioned reward based training for my dogs.
> 
> I'd come to heel pretty damn quick myself given an electric shock!:ihih:


Maybe you had it set too high! I wouldn't hurt a hair on my boys head, I adore him.

If I tread on his toe by accident believe me he lets me know so I would think he would tell me if I hurt him, don't you think?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

nope..................... can you learn to use one correctly by watching a DVD?


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

6660carrie said:


> Maybe you had it set too high! I wouldn't hurt a hair on my boys head, I adore him.
> 
> If I tread on his toe by accident believe me he lets me know so I would think he would tell me if I hurt him, don't you think?


No if he was shocked he's going to come back to the person he'd least suspect would hurt him..you. He doesn't understand that it's you who is controlling the pain. Obviously you think it's a wonderful easy tool and that's great...for you, not so great for the animal on the end of the collar. As I said I'd personally rather spend the time and energy in training my dogs than a quick painful fix.

I've trained my horse with non agressive methods too, don't use a whip, hand or electronic methods near any of my animals and they behave perfectly well..and all are rescue animals who had serious behavioural issues. Don't agree with hitting kids either but it's your kid, he can tell you one day how that felt, unfortunately our pets can't.

Hopefully it won't be long before they are banned countrywide.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

a lot of owners & trainers etc are signing up to the no shock coller coalition

www.baddogsinc.com/noshockcollarcoalition.html


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## loopylisa2009 (Jan 28, 2009)

I noticed these shock type collars on e-bay when I was looking fo a lead..shock I was horrified xx lisa xx


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I believe it is owner's discretion when it comes to training and we all have our own methods and do things that others wouldn't and believe that "our" ways are the best ways. What is the best way to train a dog is a very diverse answer because every dog responds differently to every type of training. Some dogs are complete immune to some methods so the training method has to change.

If this dog's life was in danger as it would run off and could potentially end up on a busy road then of course you could ask questions along the lines of "Why not take it somewhere quiet away from roads and train it?", "Why let it off the lead?" and "I obviously care for my dog more than you as I wouldn't ever use one of these pain inducing collars so what is the point in them?". Sometimes it is not possible to have access to the environment others do, everybody loves to se their dogs run free it one of the greatest joys of owning one and if used correctly they shouldnt cause harm to the dog.

The big point here is that the member used the collar to great effect and the dog now responds to recall which means it is safe to be off the lead for the enjoyment of the dog and owner which was the intended result. The method is not to everyone's taste but the member stated that they had tried other methods to no effect so by using the e collar they were using the method the dog would respond to.

Well done on your success :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I would however be very reluctant to follow up the success by using it for other behaviours and would save it as a last resort. I have stated in previous threads that it can have a detrimental effect on the trust your dog has in you as it is YOU that puts the collar on so it's not that daft that it can't put two and two together.

I would gladly give my dog a few little shocks if I had exhausted all other methods, but then my list of methods might be longer than some people's and shorter than others. It is far better to have a success post in here than another in the Rainbow Bridge section.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

I think they are barbaric! 

The sooner these damn things are banned the better! 
I saw some photos recently on another forum of what damage these can actually do.

Would you be happy to put one of these contraptions on your child and electrocute them every time they overstepped the mark ?

I actually think they are a quick fix solution for a lazy owner JMO.


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

OK , well I won't be signing it, many gun dogs are trained using this method and I now know it works. It hasn't been a quick fix, I have spend hours down the field for the past 4 weeks training him so he comes back to the bleep without using any form of "shock" stimulation and hes perfect every time. The stimulation is only a back up if something else gets his attention but to be honest if I bleep quick enough and call him I don't need anything else.

I kind of thought I would get this reaction but my plan is to continue using both my voice and the collar as back up so that eventually the collar can be removed.

I'm not so sure shoving a lump of metal in a horses mouth and jabbing it in the sides is particularly kind but then I'm no expert!

Thank you all for your comments.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

6660carrie said:


> I'm not so sure shoving a lump of metal in a horses mouth and jabbing it in the sides is particularly kind but then I'm no expert!
> 
> Thank you all for your comments.


That much is evident. I ride bitless and I most certainly don't 'jab' my horse in his sides. Hope you got the reaction you wanted by posting, think you did.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

6660carrie said:


> There is no pain, its just what you've heard, I even tried it out on my own leg and it just makes you jump!! Just gets his attention thats all!
> 
> I don't need to justify myself, its the best thing I've ever tried so if there is anyone out there with a big strong stubborn dog give it a go - Take your time and carry loads of treats and rewards and you will be amazed at the results. I can take him absolutely anywhere no matter how many dogs or kids and as soon as he hears the sound he comes straight to heel,don't even need a lead!


Not going to disagree with you because there are different electric collars I suspect the one you have are one of the cheap statics that you can get off the net that are pretty gentls so I am told. I have one of the old ones that would originally have cost £200ish and there I would disagree with you and can assure you there is considerable pain! I have one of the large old collars that has about 6 settings, I seem to recall someone trying it and saying they dare not go above the three. NOTE - this collar have never ever been used on an animal since it has been in my hands! lets just say I aquired it to stop it getting into the wrong hands!

The E collars that you are referring to are slighlty different I think to the one I have!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

6660carrie said:


> OK , well I won't be signing it, many gun dogs are trained using this method and I now know it works. It hasn't been a quick fix, I have spend hours down the field for the past 4 weeks training him so he comes back to the bleep without using any form of "shock" stimulation and hes perfect every time. The stimulation is only a back up if something else gets his attention but to be honest if I bleep quick enough and call him I don't need anything else.
> 
> I kind of thought I would get this reaction but my plan is to continue using both my voice and the collar as back up so that eventually the collar can be removed.
> 
> ...


my friend knows someone who trains their gundogs with e-collars, she has been at their house & when the owner went to the cupboard where the collars are kept , she said all the dogs scattered! apparently they were suppose to use a dummy collars 1st to condition the dogs but they didnt


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

JSR said:


> That much is evident. I ride bitless and I most certainly don't 'jab' my horse in his sides. Hope you got the reaction you wanted by posting, think you did.


No, I didn't get the reaction I wanted,but I did get the reaction I expected! I admire you, well done it your faultless training, maybe you should write a book to help us far less worthy dog owners.

I will happily purchase the first copy.


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> my friend knows someone who trains their gundogs with e-collars, she has been at their house & when the owner went to the cupboard where the collars are kept & she said all the dogs scattered! apparently they were suppose to use a dummy collars 1st to condition the dogs but they didnt


You are correct , they have to wear the collar for 1/2 weeks before you even charge the thing up so it has a positive association,which I obviosly did. When I get Max's out he jumps around like a looney because E collar means lots of hotdog sausages!!!

I'm off now, I've upset enough people for one day - Sorry everyone.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

6660carrie said:


> No, I didn't get the reaction I wanted,but I did get the reaction I expected! I admire you, well done it your faultless training, maybe you should write a book to help us far less worthy dog owners.
> 
> I will happily purchase the first copy.


It's not rocket science, it's called respect. It's something that you earn not force. Amazing how responsive an animal or person is when they respect you, most things can be achieved through fear, doesn't mean they should be. :frown2:

I'm off now to play in my perfect bubble of non-agression now, with my animals that actually want to be with me and don't feel they have to otherwise suffer the consequences. :thumbup1:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

6660carrie said:


> You are correct , they have to wear the collar for 1/2 weeks before you even charge the thing up so it has a positive association,which I obviosly did. When I get Max's out he jumps around like a looney because E collar means lots of hotdog sausages!!!
> 
> I'm off now, I've upset enough people for one day - Sorry everyone.


i think that just proves that when dogs actually know what is causing the shock the react very differently!


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2009)

I was reading on another forum whereby one had been used on a GSD,it made him fearful, nervous and aggressive,end result PTS because of aggression


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Is this going to be another thread that gets closed down because people always go for the jugular rather than offering an alternative in a constructive way?

Shame, it could have been an education for some, interesting for others and shared knowledge for the rest. Instead it goes down that slippery slope into the pits along with the other threads that some people just can't quite help themselves on. Maybe a bit of positive reinforcement training can help them out    

I am off to post a few things on my other favourite forum - berateme.com.


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

6660carrie said:


> You are correct , they have to wear the collar for 1/2 weeks before you even charge the thing up so it has a positive association,which I obviosly did. When I get Max's out he jumps around like a looney because E collar means lots of hotdog sausages!!!
> 
> I'm off now, I've upset enough people for one day - Sorry everyone.


Dont be sorry, i would never use one but hey we all do diffrent things i think we all should be able to train without but some dogs are harder than others you have not upset anyone they only speak what they think, no hard feelings just hope you have sorted it and dont have to use it again


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> i think that just proves that when dogs actually know what is causing the shock the react very differently!


I do believe he knows its me on the 4 occasions i've stimulated because I change my tone of voice he just doesn't realise its coming from the collar! Its just a consequence when he chooses to ignore me, but its for his own safety and others. He has never ever been aggressive but has knocked a couple of people over in his excitement and I can't afford for him to even accidentally injure someone - too many people think Dobermans are dangerous and they are so wrong. He has even been hit over the head with a walking stick on 2 occasions just because he went over to say hello!!

I just need to get a little control and this works - Don't judge me.


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Is this going to be another thread that gets closed down because people always go for the jugular rather than offering an alternative in a constructive way?
> 
> Shame, it could have been an education for some, interesting for others and shared knowledge for the rest. Instead it goes down that slippery slope into the pits along with the other threads that some people just can't quite help themselves on. Maybe a bit of positive reinforcement training can help them out
> 
> I am off to post a few things on my other favourite forum - berateme.com.


Thank you for that, trust me I have tried absolutely everything, I would never hurt him I love him too much


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi. Just wondering did you try a spray collar before the e collar? I am not completely adverse to an e collar as sometimes this maybe a last resort. I think it is something that can easily be abused, but I'm sure that if it is used in the correct way and on a very low setting then it can be very effective.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Hi. Just wondering did you try a spray collar before the e collar? I am not completely adverse to an e collar as sometimes this maybe a last resort. I think it is something that can easily be abused, but I'm sure that if it is used in the correct way and on a very low setting then it can be very effective.


Spray collars can, if your timing isn't right and is used for correcting certain behaviour, affect other dogs in the vacinity that are completely innocent in the situation so although they are less intrusive they do have a major downside.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

This will always be a very controversial subject.

I have felt an e collar and it darn well hurts. I appreciate that it has quite a few settings from a light tingle to a really nasty shock, so personally I would not want to use one.

HOWEVER, as I have said before, I do know of a lady who's Golden Retriever had their life saved using one of these. Apparently the dog was a sheep chaser and despite the owners reinforcing their fence, the dog escaped and was almost shot by the farmer. The e collar was used in a short session by a professional and in controlled circumstances. It was apparently, successful and the dog has never chased sheep again.

I do believe that these collars should ONLY be used under supervision and by a professional in extreme circumstances.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2009)

Nina said:


> This will always be a very controversial subject.
> 
> I have felt an e collar and it darn well hurts. I appreciate that it has quite a few settings from a light tingle to a really nasty shock, so personally I would not want to use one.
> 
> ...


But who's to say said supposed professional is any better at using these devices than a caring loving owner at the end of their tether.
As I have said on here many times, there is a supposed trainer in my area that uses e collars on very young puppies, and I have seen the damage that this person with so many training qualifications, has done to several timid dogs


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

rona said:


> But who's to say said supposed professional is any better at using these devices than a caring loving owner at the end of their tether.
> As I have said on here many times, there is a supposed trainer in my area that uses e collars on very young puppies, and I have seen the damage that this person with so many training qualifications, has done to several timid dogs


And were were doing s well rona 

As I said previously, it is very controversial subject and I for one would never wish to use an e collar on my dogs. However, if it were a matter of life and death I have to be perfectly honest and say, I would rather have a live dog than a dead one!

When I said that if they are used, it should only be under professional supervision by an expert, I meant just that. Not your run of the mill dog trainer and anyone who uses one of these contraptions on a puppy should NOT, in my opinion, be training at all.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I would never recommend a pet owner using a collar but I have used one with great success on my very stubborn standard poodle. She would put her nose down and go to the extent that walks became a misery for both of us. I used the collar once and I had a happy alert dog that kept half an eye on me. For about 3 years I had to bring it out at peak rabbit time for a few days and wow, what a difference it made. When she saw it come out of the cupboard she knew it was fun training time and got desperately excited. I would not use it on every dog or for every problem but think it has a place in the experienced handlers toolbox. Shame it is abused by some though and when it is banned it will be lost for ever and some dogs will lose out on a happy life.
As for the person who said it has taken 7 months to train their dog not to jump up - to me that sounds totally pointless. Not that I would use a collar to train that but a few sessions of normal training and I wouldnt expect it to happen again. Personally I prefer to see a dog being TOLD what is expected, not nagged and confused for 7 months.


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## jade (Jan 27, 2009)

watch ceaser milan instead!


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2009)

jade said:


> watch ceaser milan instead!


He does use them on occassion!


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2009)

Nina said:


> And were were doing s well rona
> 
> As I said previously, it is very controversial subject and I for one would never wish to use an e collar on my dogs. However, if it were a matter of life and death I have to be perfectly honest and say, I would rather have a live dog than a dead one!
> 
> When I said that if they are used, it should only be under professional supervision by an expert, I meant just that. Not your run of the mill dog trainer and anyone who uses one of these contraptions on a puppy should NOT, in my opinion, be training at all.


A person who resorts to this method can never by called a trainer in my opinion.
The supposed trainer has got so many training qualification ( or so he says in his adverts)
I have been trying to find information on what this man claims he has in qualifications but he does not have a website


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I've used a spray collar (unscented) on my dog who used to run off to join in other peoples' football games. I had tried other methods for 4 years with no success. I have only had to spray her about 6 times, and she now avoids them. Today, without the collar on, she made no attempt to run off after a football.
One of the dogs we used to meet in the park also ran off after footballs. It ran to a game on the other side of the road, and is now a three-legged dog. I did not want that happening to mine. Before finding out about the existence of spray collars, I considered getting an E-collar, but could not bring myself to do it. I also worried they might short-circuit when wet (my dog swims a lot). 
However, when push comes to shove, I would use any training method to keep my dog safe, even if it did mean some unpleasantness or pain for the dog. The people who say they will only use positive training methods must lead very sheltered lives. Not everything can be fixed by positive training in time to prevent stuff happening to the dog that can hurt a lot more than a jolt from an E-collar. What do you do if your dog starts jumping on adders? Start clicker training?


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> I've used a spray collar (unscented) on my dog who used to run off to join in other peoples' football games. I had tried other methods for 4 years with no success. I have only had to spray her about 6 times, and she now avoids them. Today, without the collar on, she made no attempt to run off after a football.
> One of the dogs we used to meet in the park also ran off after footballs. It ran to a game on the other side of the road, and is now a three-legged dog. I did not want that happening to mine. Before finding out about the existence of spray collars, I considered getting an E-collar, but could not bring myself to do it. I also worried they might short-circuit when wet (my dog swims a lot).
> However, when push comes to shove, I would use any training method to keep my dog safe, even if it did mean some unpleasantness or pain for the dog. The people who say they will only use positive training methods must lead very sheltered lives. Not everything can be fixed by positive training in time to prevent stuff happening to the dog that can hurt a lot more than a jolt from an E-collar. What do you do if your dog starts jumping on adders? Start clicker training?


I actually think that there are the odd occasion when these collars can be useful but I still maintain that a so called professional trainer that resorts to this method, is not a dog trainer


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2009)

rona said:


> I actually think that there are the odd occasion when these collars can be useful but I still maintain that a so called professional trainer that resorts to this method, is not a dog trainer


Agree with Rona on this one, but in the instance of this thread it seems that the OP has been acheived the desired results.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

rona said:


> A person who resorts to this method can never by called a trainer in my opinion.
> The supposed trainer has got so many training qualification ( or so he says in his adverts)
> I have been trying to find information on what this man claims he has in qualifications but he does not have a website


As I have said on numerous occasions rona, I do NOT like these collars, but, and its a big BUT, if it meant my dog being saved from being pts then I would try one.

I do not think that any genuine animal lover would want to use one of these, but as I always say, there but the grace of God go I. Lets hope that none of us are ever in that situation.


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## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

I would never put my dog through any shock like that. 
Time and patience works wonders and the bond is there forever. It took me 6months of daily training to get my rescue to come back to me after being abused by her previous owner. I would not have missed all the time we spent together for the world and i miss her terribly still.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2009)

E collars are a lazy persons tool.
Its easier than actually putting the hard work in and training your dog


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

6660carrie said:


> I do believe he knows its me on the 4 occasions i've stimulated because I change my tone of voice he just doesn't realise its coming from the collar! Its just a consequence when he chooses to ignore me, but its for his own safety and others. He has never ever been aggressive but has knocked a couple of people over in his excitement and I can't afford for him to even accidentally injure someone - too many people think Dobermans are dangerous and they are so wrong. He has even been hit over the head with a walking stick on 2 occasions just because he went over to say hello!!
> 
> I just need to get a little control and this works - Don't judge me.


my opinions are the opposite of yours its nothing personal against you i'll never agree that this method of training is humane though, i think like others have said they should only be used by professionals & then only as a last resort for extreme behavioral problems.
heres some actual cases of what can go wrong with e-collar training

scroll down to page 6

www.apbc.org.uk/resources/APBC_response to Scottish Government Consultation.pdf


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


jade said:



watch ceaser milan instead!

Click to expand...

Last night i was actualy watching Cesar and he used an e collar...



Jem said:



E collars are a lazy persons tool.
Its easier than actually putting the hard work in and training your dog 

Click to expand...

Going back to Cesar i don't think anyone can say he is lazy when it comes to dogs..but as i've just said he used one..*


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> I am off to post a few things on my other favourite forum - berateme.com.


Ha ha!! Like that!

It's very easy for people to judge, epecially on a forum where we only ever hear snippets of a dog and owners lives, we can never see first hand what is going on in these situations and how much time and effort may have already been put into training, using positive reward methods.

Personally I am not a fan of the e collar, however, I do own a remote spray collar and have found it very useful when used sparingly (as an interrupter, not a punishment) and backed up with a positive reward system for the moment that the behaviour stops/changes.

There are cases when a dog's life may be in danger - not to mention the lives of road users, livestock, other dogs etc - and if a dog with deep-set issues decides to do 'wrong' then no amount liver treats will stop this. To suggest that electronic devices (e-collars or spray collars) are a lazy alternative to training is, on the whole, a bit unfair.

If you are either a good trainer, or have a very reponsive dog, then you are very lucky!! Not all dog owners find training easy and sadly some give up altogether and then dump the poor souls. Let's try to be a bit more understanding of this eh?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

most people that i know with my breed never allow them off lead either, huskies have unreliable recall & are keen hunters, but there are other ways to excercise dogs it probably takes a bit more dedication to them but i think its much better than taking the e-collar option. Thats just my opinion as i have 6 who arnt trusted off lead


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> Last night i was actualy watching Cesar and he used an e collar...
> 
> Going back to Cesar i don't think anyone can say he is lazy when it comes to dogs..but as i've just said he used one..*


E collars are a lazy mans tool NO dog trainer worth their salt would use one I dont care who the trainer is just because he's on tv doesn't make it alright!


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> most people that i know with my breed never allow them off lead either, huskies have unreliable recall & are keen hunters, but there are other ways to excersise dogs it probably takes a bit more dedication to them but i think its much better than taking the e-collar option. Thats just my opinion as i have 6 who arnt trusted off lead


Being off-lead isn't always about exercise, or even through choice- sometimes they escape! My Dad has altziemers and forgetfully left my back gate unlocked, I didn't notice this until the next day when the wind blew i open and my Parsons terrier legged it and was gone for hours. (I admit this was neglegance on my part but you won't make me feel any more guilty than I already do)

Anyway, I digress. Back to the thread!!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

so do people leave e-collars on 24hours a day incase they escape? my dogs are all taught recall, hopefully they will listen to me if the need ever arises.


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

i think they should be kept for the bedroom/.


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> so do people leave e-collars on 24hours a day incase they escape? my dogs are all taught recall, hopefully they will listen to me if the need ever arises.


I knew I hadn't explained that one properly!... This dog came to me after spending all her life in and out of rescue, she had a phenominally high hunting/prey drive and no amount of training could bring her even close to a recall, it is very difficult to describe how much long term intensive training I (and a behaviourist)did with her and even more difficult to explain just how deep rooted her problems were. Perhaps if she had had some training with an ecollar then maybe her running instinct could have been curbed? This is all academic anyway because that was an avenue we chose not to explore.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we are sometimes too quick to criticise people's abilities to train their dogs, or their willingness to put time and effort into doing so, without understanding the full picture.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

alphadog said:


> I knew I hadn't explained that one properly!... This dog came to me after spending all her life in and out of rescue, she had a phenominally high hunting/prey drive and no amount of training could bring her even close to a recall, it is very difficult to describe how much long term intensive training I (and a behaviourist)did with her and even more difficult to explain just how deep rooted her problems were. Perhaps if she had had some training with an ecollar then maybe her running instinct could have been curbed? This is all academic anyway because that was an avenue we chose not to explore.
> 
> I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we are sometimes too quick to criticise people's abilities to train their dogs, or their willingness to put time and effort into doing so, without understanding the full picture.


ok thanks for that i'm never gunna agree with them though i think the OP knew it was a controversial one


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

Of course it's contorversial, and long may it stay controversial because the last thing any of us want to see is e collars being so well accepted that they become common place in puppy classes for eg  

However, I don't think OP was hoping to open a can of worms, just to point out that on a very low setting she has had good results in situations that otherwise are hard to manage (off lead, at a distance for eg) .


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

alphadog said:


> Of course it's contorversial, and long may it stay controversial because the last thing any of us want to see is e collars being so well accepted that they become common place in puppy classes for eg
> 
> However, I don't think OP was hoping to open a can of worms, just to point out that on a very low setting she has had good results in situations that otherwise are hard to manage (off lead, at a distance for eg) .


ok, i'm gunna zip my mouth now!!!lol


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Fade to Grey said:


> i think they should be kept for the bedroom/.


haha me too:yesnod:


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

There are private clubs for this sort of thing you know!! ha ha


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

haha there are!?

no personally they shouldn't be used but i guess as a *very last* resort we can allow it.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2009)

Can I just add, as I was looking, not for that specific purpose, through Cesar Website; here is a copy-paste of a Q&A... can be interesting to some 

Dear Cesar:

I have recently "inherited" a 30-pound, seven-year-old mixed breed female dog after my aunt died. Moesha is a smart, part greyhound, part whatever-dog with fairly good manners. She has two major problems which have scared me enough to write you: 1.) running away if any door or gate is cracked open and 2.) me being unable to keep her from dragging (running) on a leash when I am trying to walk with her.

I also have three other mixed breed rescue dogs, with good manners and who know who their pack leader is. I have had about twenty other dogs in my life and have never had a problem with dogs running away. I can usually convince them that running away is not in their best interest -- that way we can walk calmly out front of the house without leashes and they listen well.

My husband wants to use an electric collar (which I really don't like) to zap her into behaving. I hate that concept, but it is better than getting hit by a car. I currently put her on a leash, and she behaves fairly well while the other 3 walk around.

How can I break Moesha of this habit since she is seven years old and has been this way all of her life for her previous owners? She is really fast too -- we have clocked her in a car doing between 30-35 mph.

Thanks. I love your show but have not seen this covered exactly.

Robin Caple
Ocala, FL

Dear Robin,

First, I'll address the touchy issue of e-collars. I believe any tool that works for you and that you feel comfortable with ethically - - including an e-collar -- is acceptable&#65533;as long as you know how to use the tool 100% correctly and that it ultimately creates a positive impact or produces positive behavior in the dog. In the situation you are in, if the e-collar is the tool you choose, it could indeed be an effective way of saving your dog's life. In other words, when a dog runs away compulsively, especially such a fast dog, the possibility of the dog getting hurt from a car are much higher than getting hurt from an e-collar.

That said, it's essential that you learn how to use an e-collar properly because they have different levels of intensity and you have to know which level to use depending on your dog's size, age, energy level, etc. The concept behind e-collars is without a doubt to save a dog's life. It was not created to hurt the dog, but the mild shocks are intended to produce an unpleasant experience that the dog will want to avoid. You the owner have to do your research and perhaps consult a professional or vet before you attempt to use the tool, because, in the wrong hands or used improperly, it can indeed create a traumatic experience for your dog.

Stay calm and assertive,

--

Other than that ill just say that "smacking" your kids a few times in their life is not, in my opinion, "hitting" and certainly no child abuse there!!
People need to get a grip ánd stop being so foollishly all about political correctness.. A couple of smacks isnt gonna traumatise anyone and its sometimes quite useful if maybe not the best way to deal with the situation.

xx


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I know ime going off the original subject but i have a 7mth springer she is absolutely wonderfull (other than toilet training):confused5:
her recall is fantastic i cant fault her, she is my 3rd springer so i do know how difficult they can be and i really do appreciate how responsive she has been to training outside, but the only think i cant master his getting her to stop jumping up, i do tell people not to let her but they dont seem to want to tell her off and say "oh shes ok" but shes not ok i dont want her to do it.

So how did you do it? thanks for any ideas.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I know ime going off the original subject but i have a 7mth springer she is absolutely wonderfull (other than toilet training):confused5:
> her recall is fantastic i cant fault her, she is my 3rd springer so i do know how difficult they can be and i really do appreciate how responsive she has been to training outside, but the only think i cant master his getting her to stop jumping up, i do tell people not to let her but they dont seem to want to tell her off and say "oh shes ok" but shes not ok i dont want her to do it.
> 
> So how did you do it? thanks for any ideas.


Here's a decent link,
How To Stop Your Dog Jumping Up At People


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Thank you so much for that.Its very informative and simple really, it would have been easier younger they are but she has only just started doing it she was quite nervous of people up to a few weeks ago and wouldnt go near anyone she didnt know well, so i think she has been encouraged by people with the best of intentions as they make such a fuss of her now shes going up to them,bless her she cant win.

Ive saved the link into my laptop so i can keep refering to it thanks again.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I know that this debate is on going, but a few days ago I met a lady who has also used one of these e collars, to prevent her dog from chasing and killing Monk Jacks.

They had literally tried EVERYTHING. She was from rescue, so her past was unknown. Eventually someone suggested, as a last resort, that she tried it on vibrate to very low setting.

In short it worked and after a week, her dog stopped chasing deer and would return on command. Oh, did I mention that the dog went missing twice! She no longer uses the collar and her dog was a happy, bouncing, well adjusted dog that was running and playing with the other dogs and was undoubtedly devoted to her owner.

Now I understand that whatever anyone was to say in favour of these collars, there would be certain people who will rise up in horror. As much as I absolutely hate the darn things, I would rather use one as an absolute last resort, rather than have my dog put to sleep.

I guess this makes me a monster!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi. I agree it is ok to use for responsible owners if they know how to use it.

I have just brought a spray collar (140GBP) but I am seeing great results so far! However if it doesn't continue to work then I would consider an e collar.

Vicky


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

goodvic2 said:


> Hi. I agree it is ok to use for responsible owners if they know how to use it.
> 
> I have just brought a spray collar (140GBP) but I am seeing great results so far! However if it doesn't continue to work then I would consider an e collar.
> 
> Vicky


Vicky I do think that it is right to be debating e collars and can absolutely understand why people would be so against them. I also thought them to be absolutely barbaric until I came across quite a few people who have used them under professional supervision as a LAST resort.

I will now put my hand on my heart and catagorically say, that if my dog was under the threat of a destruction order and I had tried every training method open to me without success, I would try an e collar.

I have felt them and on a very low voltage it is honestly no more than a slight tingle. In fact I have had a real belt from electric fences in chicken coups. Try cocking your leg over one of them 

I can also understand why people are so against them, but as I have said many times, there but for the grace of God go I. A live dog is preferable to a dead dog.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm not completely against them as a last resort when no other methods had worked kind of like prong or choke collars I wouldn't use them normally. But if it was a choice between a few shocks and my pup being put down I would chose the shocks any day and even then only with an experienced trainer supervising.


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

Hi everyone, I have to confess I started this thread but never anticipated such a huge debate.

I would like to 110% agree that E collars are NOT for puppies and I would hate to see one used in the wrong hands but, I've had such amazing results with mine. I have to say, I now attach the collar very loosly so even if the shock button was pressed he wouldn't feel it as it has to be in contact with the skin. All I need to do is press the little bleep button and he will recall under pretty much ANY circumstance. There can be Dogs, Cats kids, food anything to distract him but he will still recall every time. Last week we even took him out and forgot to take the remote with us, but because he knew he was wearing it he recalled even when we whistled.

Does he need to wear it then? I hear you ask - The answer to that is Yes, we left it off on Sunday down the country park and he just ran off and upset just about everyone and would not come back to me (Very frustrating).

I too never would have even considered one of these collars 6 months ago as he was doing so well in his training, but he has had a couple of close shaves whereby he has just bolted and ended up on a main road so rather than keep him on a lead all his life (much to energetic for this) I started using the collar and it has been amazing. Nothing else I tried has worked and believe me I have spend hundreds of hours trying every trick in the book!

Thank you for all your positive comments, and I truly respect all of you who don't agree with me.


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## xxcharleyxx (Feb 25, 2009)

To be honest I would never, ever, use one of these on my dog. I would much rather spend hours over weeks, months or even years to train my dog positively, ask hundred of questions and spend a fortune if need be.

At the end of the day the dog can't turn round and say "ouch, will you bloody pack that in, it hurts" 

Obviously you wouldn't electrocute your child, so why inflict it in on your pet, that you're meant to love and nurture just the same


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

I respect your opinion but I'm guessing if your waggy tailed black lab runs over to say hello to someone they don't throw themselves into a hedge or scream like they do when a 7 stone Dobey runs over!! 

Its a totally different kettle of fish I'm affraid to say.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I do agree with that. There are certain dogs, and prob most are rescue's who need more than positive re-enforcement. In an ideal world we would only use this but as the owner of 3 difficult rescue's, I know that sometimes you have to use other methods. In saying that though, I have not had to use an e-coller. I have had my first 2 rescue's for 15 months and have just started using a spray coller - it is working a treat. However if I do not have success I would consider an e-coller.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

Just wondering how certain rescue's would feel about the use of E-collars on there adoptive dogs.

Surely the way some rescue dogs are treated,abused and such, they would not be happy about the use of these contraptions,especially when canine organisations are calling for a ban ?

I have experience of a dog aggressive,fear aggressive dog,he took alot of extremely hard work,at no point did we ever consider using an E-Collar,nor would I.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Just wondering how certain rescue's would feel about the use of E-collars on there adoptive dogs.
> 
> Surely the way some rescue dogs are treated,abused and such, they would not be happy about the use of these contraptions,especially when canine organisations are calling for a ban ?
> 
> I have experience of a dog aggressive,fear aggressive dog,he took alot of extremely hard work,at no point did we ever consider using an E-Collar,nor would I.


Could not agree with you more Sallyanne, and as it happens I have a prime example in the form of an 8 year old sat at my feet as I write, recused from a agreesive owner, where he endured terrible treatment, the one thing I can say with certainty an E-collar would certainly flip him over the top.

And to add, sorry to disillusion!!! but I get fed up of hearing the so called expects say 'But they are OK in the hands of an expert' afraid thats a falacy folks - theirs only one expert in my dogs! and thats ME!

DT
sits back and waits for the abuse!


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

they do have a place if used properly! but i would only use them for the dog's sake like recall or sheep worrying but as a last resault


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

christine c said:


> they do have a place if used properly! but i would only use them for the dog's sake like recall or sheep worrying but as a last resault


thats still a big risk, some dogs have been known to power through the stim, so if your dogs are potential sheep worryers they should never be allowed off near livestock.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Just wondering how certain rescue's would feel about the use of E-collars on there adoptive dogs.
> 
> Surely the way some rescue dogs are treated,abused and such, they would not be happy about the use of these contraptions,especially when canine organisations are calling for a ban ?
> 
> I have experience of a dog aggressive,fear aggressive dog,he took alot of extremely hard work,at no point did we ever consider using an E-Collar,nor would I.


Well if it was one of ours I know there would be some serious discussions that would be done. I've never yet had to remove a dog from a adoptive home but would have little if no choice if I knew these things were being used. I've had 2 dogs with extreame behavioural issues that were due to be PTS because they couldn't be rehomed, it's taken me 5 years for one dog and after 8 years for the other she still cannot be trust but never ever would I put one of those things anywhere near them. I would be failing them as a trainer and failing myself as a caring owner if I did. Pain is never a training tool it's a cop out.

If your dobie runs to people thats your fault not the dogs, keep it on a lead if you can't train it properly do not punish it for your failings. That's a stupid example to use in my opinion it proves a failing in your training and handling not an excuse to use a shock collar! :blink:


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

christine c said:


> they do have a place if used properly! but i would only use them for the dog's sake like recall or sheep worrying but as a last resault


But what in you opinion would be the last resort Christine? do not doubt for one moment that the people who use one of these contraptions believe that they are using it right! (although not to be compared -I have even seen dogs in rescues with choke chains on the wrong way ).
And with regard to the sheep worrying, what if the dog associated being zapped with the collar associated the pain with the sheep? what effect would this likely have?

Can I just add I have not written this to be awkward, Just genuinely interested in your version (or anyones' for that matter) of 'properly'.

I do have an Electric collar by the way! and it is one of the very powerful ones which has nine strengths! My partner has tried on himself up to strength three and would go no further! This particular collar imo looks gruesome - if I have the time later I shall dig it out and photo it close up!

regards
DT


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

JSR said:


> Well if it was one of ours I know there would be some serious discussions that would be done. I've never yet had to remove a dog from a adoptive home but would have little if no choice if I knew these things were being used. I've had 2 dogs with extreame behavioural issues that were due to be PTS because they couldn't be rehomed, it's taken me 5 years for one dog and after 8 years for the other she still cannot be trust but never ever would I put one of those things anywhere near them. I would be failing them as a trainer and failing myself as a caring owner if I did. Pain is never a training tool it's a cop out.
> 
> If your dobie runs to people thats your fault not the dogs, keep it on a lead if you can't train it properly do not punish it for your failings. That's a stupid example to use in my opinion it proves a failing in your training and handling not an excuse to use a shock collar! :blink:


Thanks for posting,
I just wondered how rescue's would view the use of these given that alot of dogs that go through the rescue system have issues.
Some are nervous wreck's so I could imagine that these contraptions would push some dogs over the edge and we all know dogs act out of character when they suffer pain,there was an example of one been used by a so called trainer and the dog bit the owners arm.

Roll on when we have a total ban,so no more dogs can be abused in this way,in my opinion it's not training,it's abuse and cruelty and surely we as humans shouldn't resort to such methods in this day and age!

I will never get my head around why people feel they need to use them,there is always another option,it may take a little more time that's all.

Forgot to add,alot of you say it can save a dogs life used as a last resort etc,but are you aware it could also kill a dog and end it's life,for example,if the dog recieved a painful shock,it may run and take off,it may run straight out infront of a car,or farmers gun,it will assoiciate anything infront of them with a shock,so you could make a dog fearful of people etc...
I can see a long list of why I wouldn't use them but nobody has given me an acceptable reason as to why they should be used.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Thanks for posting,
> I just wondered how rescue's would view the use of these given that alot of dogs that go through the rescue system have issues.
> Some are nervous wreck's so I could imagine that these contraptions would push some dogs over the edge and we all know dogs act out of character when they suffer pain,there was an example of one been used by a so called trainer and the dog bit the owners arm.
> 
> ...


hi sal

yes i agree with you
people use these cus half the time they carnt be botherd do proper training as it takes to much effort

i would never use one of these on my dogs!


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

Interesting thread.....

Brain devlopment in any creature starts from within the womb...

With the human, by the age of 4 the brain is pretty much developed - not sure with our canine friends but I guess it will be when they are a few months old...

If that human or dog baby have not been exposed to positive experiences....i.e been neglected, abused, not socialised properly it has profound effects on the brain. 

Think of it like a blank computer - what goes in is stored.

And if wrong information goes in, it generally takes a professional to repair it. 

So when these creatures suffer abuse,, it can take many, many hours, days, weeks, months even years to re - wire their brains. And help them to learn to trust, to form attachment with their ownrs.

I cannot see how an electric shock would cure this.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Thanks for posting,
> I just wondered how rescue's would view the use of these given that alot of dogs that go through the rescue system have issues.
> Some are nervous wreck's so I could imagine that these contraptions would push some dogs over the edge and we all know dogs act out of character when they suffer pain,there was an example of one been used by a so called trainer and the dog bit the owners arm.
> 
> ...


Luckily in Wales they are already banned so we don't have a issue with it here. I don't know of many rescues that would tolerate them being used. To be honest the majority of dogs that have serious issues come from the pounds directly sold to the public and they are inlikely to know or care if they are used! Good rescues ensure that the adoptee's know to come back to them if they need help on any issues. I personally will give one to one training for free for any of our dogs rather than risk them bouncing back. If the owners care enough to ask for help that is!! I think you've hit the nail on the head though with 'it may take a little more time'...thats what alot of people don't want to do..spend some time..they'd rather a quick fix no matter what the consequence to the dog!


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

by properly i mean under the rite control of the person useing it. ie. you would have to no the dog very well and not be in a temper with your dog when useing it. I would consider useing 1 to save my dog from running onto a road i have a friend who live's on a farm she used to chase sheep. it took 1 low zap the dog doesn,t even look at the sheep now!. Have you ever used your's if you have then you'll no more than me?.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

christine c said:


> by properly i mean under the rite control of the person useing it. ie. you would have to no the dog very well and not be in a temper with your dog when useing it. I would consider useing 1 to save my dog from running onto a road i have a friend who live's on a farm she used to chase sheep. it took 1 low zap the dog doesn,t even look at the sheep now!. Have you ever used your's if you have then you'll no more than me?.


i dont agree with them sorry!

my staffie was naughty as a pup and she as done great with proper training and hard work,,,no need for a cruel e-collar


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

christine c said:


> by properly i mean under the rite control of the person useing it. ie. you would have to no the dog very well and not be in a temper with your dog when useing it. I would consider useing 1 to save my dog from running onto a road i have a friend who live's on a farm she used to chase sheep. it took 1 low zap the dog doesn,t even look at the sheep now!. Have you ever used your's if you have then you'll no more than me?.


i have 6 dogs whos recall cant be trusted, i have found alternative ways of exercising them. So many dogs have been traumatised with these devices.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

christine c said:


> by properly i mean under the rite control of the person useing it. ie. you would have to no the dog very well and not be in a temper with your dog when useing it. I would consider useing 1 to save my dog from running onto a road i have a friend who live's on a farm she used to chase sheep. it took 1 low zap the dog doesn,t even look at the sheep now!. Have you ever used your's if you have then you'll no more than me?.


No - I confess to never have used mine! There is absoulty no need whatsoever to even consider using one on three of the dogs I handle. On the one that many people would have been tempted to I am pretty confident is saying that the desired effect would never have been acheived.

You have actually agreed with a point I made 'that one would need to know the dog very well' however, I would still not consider this as a reason to use!

I am pleased to learn that you have cured the sheep problem, and can only assume that it is because you know your dog so well. I still would fear that in the wrong circumstances it could have had the wrong effect.
regards
DT


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

not me a friend used it. sitting here looking at my dog's i'm going to back track NO I COULDN'T USE ONE ON THEM. my boy isn,t 100 at recall so like you his on a lead untill i can let him off safe


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

Alot of you say it can save a dogs life used as a last resort etc,but it could also kill a dog, dogs act completely out of character when in pain, for example,if the dog recieved a painful shock,it may run and take off,it may run straight out infront of a car,causing a serious accident and a very badly injured if not dead dog,or another example it could take off through a field full of sheep to be met by a farmers gun,
A dog could assiociate anything with a shock,not necessarily what the trainer /owner is doing or trying to achieve, the dog has a choice with the use of electric fences,it can avoid a shock by avoiding it,it has not got such a choice with a E - Collar.
I can see a long list of why I wouldn't use them but nobody has given me an acceptable reason as to why they should be used.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I would like to know if those that are quite so adamantly anti e collars have ever seen one work. The first time I used one I asked the local SSPCA inspector to come and watch. We decided it wasnt cruel but wasnt effective either and I decided it wasnt likely to work on that dog for that problem anyway. A few years later I felt it a good idea to try again on a different dog with a different problem so bought one that seemed more likely to do what it was supposed to and ended up with a happy confident dog instead of a sullen miserable one on walks. 
Those of you that say you wouldnt use it on your puppy or your rescue, abused or nervous dog - well I sincerely hope no one would! You have to know your dog not just use it on any dog. I cant see ANY reason to use it on a puppy as that is still at the trainable stage. It's only use is for a confident dog that is either aggressive to livestock or chases or runs off - after the normal training has been attempted. And believe me, there are some dogs that will always find the lure of a rabbit too much however well 'trained' they are but the collar might well make them think and hear the recall command that would normally bring them back. They should not be used on untrained dogs, they are a training aid for certain dogs in certain conditions, not a cure for all ills or a shortcut to a good recall.


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## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

Many years ago I rescued a Doberman he was called Ben, I had had many dogs before Ben, the very first walk I took him on left me crawling on all fours after he ran into me and knocked me flying, things went from bad to worse with him, 

he would fly around the woods eating dead beings and whenever I got close enough to catch him he would bite me, 

I took him to a training class and instead of walking to heel he would jump up and down trying to bite my arm, he would attack other dogs in the class to be fair he was a nightmare, 

One of the trainers suggested agility classes so off we went, the first part of the agility course was weaving and he totally dragged me off my feet, the trainer yelled "IT'S NEVER THE DOG! IT'S ALWAYS THE OWNER" for everyone to hear 

The next part of the course was the A frame, Ben came down the other side of that with his teeth in my arm, and to be fair I had really had enough, 

The class was held in the field of the local dog rescue and I seriously thought that I might leave him there when I saw a guy with a Dobi that was walking to heel and looking up adoringly at her owner, at that point I started crying and walked up to the guy and asked him how he had managed to train his dog, 

He asked me to run up and down with Ben while I was running Ben latched onto my arm and refused to let go the guy gave me his number and told me he ran a training course for problem dogs he thought that I should attend with Ben.

Our first class saw Ben attack a Roti and a GSD he bit me and the trainer who took me to one side and said "I am going to place a collar onto your dog it is called a continental collar when he tries to attack another dog or you I want you to check him with it, it will pinch pretty hard" I stopped for a moment and thought about what the trainer had told me to do and when I weighted it all up I agreed to it, 

Off we went down the training field past the Roti and BAM! Ben went for it and I didn't check him I just held on as the collar tightened it pinched him and he yelped and I yelped and the trainer sighed at me I knew he was thinking "It's always the owner never the dog" but fair play he didn't say it out loud.

The next week we were back again we had to get all the dogs into a circle then meet in the middle, half way in Ben tried to kill the GSD to out left and I checked him, he stopped straight away and looked at me I smiled down and said "Good Boy" we went back into the circle and all crossed in the middle Ben watched me and ignored the other dogs I said "Good Boy" I slipped him some liver I had baked and he sat by my side. 

We went to that training school for months and we never used the collar again, I could put Ben in a down and he would stay there until I went to get him even with all the other dogs walking past. He became my best friend I could take him any where with or without a lead, 

one day in the park he got attacked by a JRT he was a way from me about 20 yards I told him Down and he dropped, I ran over and lifted the JR up and gave it back to its owner and suggested he keep it on a lead, Ben didn't move while all this was happening, I opened my arms and he came running and placed his front feet gently on my shoulders while he licked me silly, he was one of the most intelligent dogs I have ever had the pleasure of sharing my life with  

Do I regret using the collar with Ben, absoloutely not...
Would I use it on another dog, well I have never had to, I have found my methods of gentle training to be more than adequate, Ben was my exception and I have no doubts that if I hadn't met the guy with the Dobi Ben would have been PTS.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Changes said:


> Many years ago I rescued a Doberman he was called Ben, I had had many dogs before Ben, the very first walk I took him on left me crawling on all fours after he ran into me and knocked me flying, things went from bad to worse with him,
> 
> he would fly around the woods eating dead beings and whenever I got close enough to catch him he would bite me,
> 
> ...


It takes a lot of courage to tell a story like yours and I think you should be commended.

The two dogs that I have met both had their lives saved as a result of using an e collar, and I would do EXACTLY the same, rather than have a much loved dog pts.

Our previous GSD Zak, was trained from a very early age and socialised with both dogs and strangers. Before his last injection, we would carry him round in our arms just so he could get used, to every day living.

We started training and he went on to achieve his bronze, silver and gold award. At the age of 2 however, he went for a guy in our class. It was completely unexpected and very frightening.

He was always bottom of our pack and an extremely intelligent dog. He loved working and was completely devoted to myself and my husband. Like you, I had always been familiar with the saying, there's no such thing as a bad dog, it is the owner".

Following a vet check (I wanted to discount any medical reasons), I took Zak to see a top behaviorist in his field, one that I had worked with previously and he confirmed that Zak's aggression was probably the result of over bonding with their owner and suggested we muzzled him in all public places for his own safety.

We never gave up on Zak, but he was not to be trusted. Would I have tried the e collar, yes, if I knew that they existed then, I would.

I have tried these collars around my own wrist, and there is absolutely NO pain until the switch is turned up past no 3. Anything over that is downright barbaric and for that reason, I think that these collars should have a minimal shock rate of 3. It is no more hurtful than a sharp prod and if it saves your dog life, surely that is better than being euthanised!!!!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Two fantastic posts - well said!


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2009)

Sorry I don't buy it.
Sooner we follow Wales and get a ban the better.

I have experience with a fear aggressive,dog aggressive and people agressive dog,Would I have used an E-Collar absolutely not.No he was not pts either,it took alot of hard work,time,trust,consistancy and patience.

We are supposed to live in a civilised society and yet we have owners who are supposed to love there dogs, inflicting pain and in some cases severe injury by the use of an E - Collar.

I saw some photo's of injuries caused by these contraptions and the pain the dog must have felt must have been incredable.

I don't see it acceptable to train a dog by shocking it,pretty much in the same way you don't agree with docking Nina,however docking is only done once,it seems electrocuting a dog is repeated over and over.

If they are a reliable training tool why are Canine Organisations such as Dogs Trust,RSPCA,KC etc calling for a ban ?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

The reason they are calling for a ban is because there are so many irresponsible and horrible people over there and therefore better to ban it than to have even one dog suffer.

On a low level setting it does not hurt the dog, as so many people have said.

It is fantastic that you have managed to deal with extreme problems without resulting to using an e coller. I myself have never had to use them, despite having 2 rescue dogs with many problems. However, I would not critize people for using them and would keep an open mind about future use, if I felt all other rehabilitation methods had failed.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> The reason they are calling for a ban is because there are so many irresponsible and horrible people over there and therefore better to ban it than to have even one dog suffer.
> 
> On a low level setting it does not hurt the dog, as so many people have said.
> 
> It is fantastic that you have managed to deal with extreme problems without resulting to using an e coller. I myself have never had to use them, despite having 2 rescue dogs with many problems. However, I would not critize people for using them and would keep an open mind about future use, if I felt all other rehabilitation methods had failed.


How do you think Rescue organisations would feel about these been used on rescue dogs which already have issue's ?
Do you think they could make a dog flip,push it over the edge ?

If it is set on a low level as not to hurt the dog and it does not feel anything what is the point in using one ?


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## sand199uk (Mar 11, 2009)

OMG, I just realized such collar existed you can just buy it from shops or ebay??:mad5: although it may serve for some extreme cases, but there's many other ways to solve problems. I really think e collar should be banned, or at least restrict sales to professional dog trainer only.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2009)

And so the debate goes on
and on and on

I have like many before me, aired me views on this subject on several occasions, and dispite what success stories I read my opinions are still the same, there is no room in dog training for Ecollars. For each successful account that we read we could no doubt tell of ten attempts that didn't work.
So for those of you that have acheived success with the collars - all I can say is that I am thrilled that it has worked for you, but sadly, the day I have to resort to using such a contraption on my dogs is the day that i'll give up keeping dogs.
Enough said by me
regards
DT


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> the day I have to resort to using such a contraption on my dogs is the day that i'll give up keeping dogs.
> 
> DT


Pretty much the same for me too,


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i too think there are better ways of solving problems than an ecollar.

The chance imo that the ecollar could cause actually more problems behaviour-wise than the original problem itself would be to risky and not worth it....

I dont believe in solving problems by inflicting pain and thats how it often is used...

I know behaviourists having worked with people-aggressive dogs that never needed to use an ecollar and dogs didnt have to be pts. An understanding of the dogs behaviour and knowledge about the way of solving the problems combined with time and alot of work works often well too and has probably better effects on the dog than an ecollar would have ....


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And so the debate goes on
> and on and on
> 
> I have like many before me, aired me views on this subject on several occasions, and dispite what success stories I read my opinions are still the same, there is no room in dog training for Ecollars. For each successful account that we read we could no doubt tell of ten attempts that didn't work.
> ...


i couldnt agree more


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I really wish that previous posts would be read before people answer 

Firstly, I am NOT barbaric and would NEVER subject my dog to pain on any level. I get extremely upset that anyone would suggest that I would, since I have spent the majority of my adult life working along side of rescue centres and highlighting animal cruelty.

I hope I am a considerate dog owner and have always given my pets the best of everything, regardless of cost.

My previous GSD's aggression was certainly not down to lack of training, time or love. As I said previously, we NEVER gave up on him - ever. 

The E collars that I have felt, start on vibration. FACT this is NOT painful. Up until level 2 - 3 they would feel no more than a mother's bite to chastise her young. Do you want to take puppies away from their mother after birth!!!

In my previous thread I absolutely agree that e collars should stop at no 3 and change their name. FACT, they have saved lives.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I wasn't going to reply to this but i will say what my oppion is..As most of you know by now i'm a great fan of Cesar Milan and if would use one of these collars then i go along with him.I can say hand on heart i don't think he would harm any animal, although others i know think differently..And yes,if i HAD to i would use one of these collars.*


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

JANICE199 said:


> *I wasn't going to reply to this but i will say what my oppion is..As most of you know by now i'm a great fan of Cesar Milan and if would use one of these collars then i go along with him.I can say hand on heart i don't think he would harm any animal, although others i know think differently..And yes,if i HAD to i would use one of these collars.*


Janice, I knew that my opinion on these would be contraversial and I expected a back lash. However, I just could not stand back and see people being accused of cruelty because they used them as a last resort.

I would just like to say, that anyone who has never seen or tried an e collar, PLEASE try it. Two things will become apparent if you do. Firstly, anything over 3 in my opinion, IS painful. Vibration is NOT and I honestly believe that 1 - 3 is no more than a mother would do to stop her babies.

Why the collars have stronger settings is beyond me, and I am in no doubt that used to shock a dog over the lowest settings could indeed cause serious injury. For this reason, I think there is a good case for banning them. All I ask, is that people be open minded about those people who have used them as a last resort on a low setting. Surely this is better than having a dog pts.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

Watch the video,
Nina you should be overjoyed as you don't much like the KC,

Google Image Result for http://www.dog-harness-solutions.com/images/shock-collar-burn-framed.jpg

And it doesn't hurt,it doesn't look like it.

And injuries caused by one of these contraptions failing,
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/008-1.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/008-1.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/006-4.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/001-7.jpg

The pain that poor dog must have felt,how sad that people think it's acceptable to cause these injuries and pain to a dog they are supposed to love and care for.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Nina i too didnt like the idea of these collars, but it was Cesar that pointed out they have different settings.As far as i can see its no different to using a tens machine.As for why they go to a high level i can only GUESS that if a dog is in such a "red zone" it might be the only way to calm it down..But that is only my oppion.*


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally, ANYTHING used on a pet wrongly can cause serious damage and once again, I do not think that you have read my thread through.

Have you seen the damage done by cats getting their leg through their collar! Some injuries are so bad that the vets have had no option but to put them to sleep.

I have also seen various injuries caused by flexi's and long leads, and even halti's.

An e collar has various settings and once again for the umpteen time I am completely agreeing, that used on a high setting would be barbaric, and for that reason I can understand the ban. HOWEVER, ON A LOW SETTING, THE DOG WOULD FEEL NO MORE THAN A MOTHER WOULD DO TO CHASTISE HER PUPPIES.

That is my point.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

Mine has ten settings as I said in a post early in this thread my partner tied it on three and would not go any further, I wouldn't try is at all. 

Someone pointed out on this thread that a friend of theirs has used one to stop a dog worrying sheep! Luckily it worked. But on ther otherhand what if it hadn't, My fear would a been that zapping a dog that was amongst sheep that the dog would associate the sheep with the pain and launch on a frenzied attack.

And sadly (much as jan has converted me) it will take More then Cesar Milan to convince me! Do they ever broardcast the one where he used the collar on a GSD an it bit the owner??

love
DT


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Mine has ten settings as I said in a post early in this thread my partner tied it on three and would not go any further, I wouldn't try is at all.
> 
> Someone pointed out on this thread that a friend of theirs has used one to stop a dog worrying sheep! Luckily it worked. But on ther otherhand what if it hadn't, My fear would a been that zapping a dog that was amongst sheep that the dog would associate the sheep with the pain and launch on a frenzied attack.
> 
> ...


*Hi Sue.I havent seen it yet but i will tell you as soon as i have.*


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## rictic (Mar 10, 2009)

my understanding of these shock type collars is that are only to be used to attract a dogs attention / break a trance like fixation. to enable the handler / owner to take control.

they were developed to do the same as the spray collar & vibrating collar. technology taking over.

all these type collars are just meant to do that. distract the dog from whatever it is fixed on and return it's attention to you.

they are not designed as punishment or to re enforce behaviour just to distract.

that said if the results can be obtained from a spray or vibrating collar why use an e collar at all?

some dogs have a far greater "pain threshold" than others. not that i mean to cause pain but it enables them to totally ignore minor unpleasantries.

i do not in any way advocate pain training, but getting the attention of the dog is the proper objective of any of these collars.

not to force the dog to comply to a shock or noise or spray just to focus the attention on the handler again.

at a distance this can sometimes be absolutely vital.

now as for the use of an e collar.

the police use tasers thousands of volts that totally incapacitate but leave unharmed. not a true comparism i know, but these collars should be giving no more than a quick reminder to pay attention.

i dont know how long the shock lasts, but the button should work just once, ie, not continuosly if held down. and it should not be able to go over a level 3 shock.

it is only volts no amps not 3 phase or a level of shock that would kill or maim.
any damage done is usually by inferior cheap units, like everything in life.

it is only a small battery not a lot of power there anyway.

again i do not condone them but i stress if used as directed and very sparingly and on a low setting for attention at distance only, for safety's sake i cannot condemn them.

i would prefer a vibrating one tho if it works.

i bet all our dogs get more pain from running into fences,gates,doors,each other etc.

responsible use, gentle use reinforced with positive training, and use it very sparingly.

then i cant see a major problem, why wait months and years even to rehabilitate a difficult animal when it can possibly be done quickly and effectively with positive results for both dog and owner?

just my opinion.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Watch the video,
> Nina you should be overjoyed as you don't much like the KC,
> 
> Google Image Result for http://www.dog-harness-solutions.com/images/shock-collar-burn-framed.jpg
> ...


*The same could happen sallyanne if a choke chain is used wrongly..If people don't bother to think and learn before they use a lot of things in life, the consequenes(sp) could be fatal.*


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Nina said:


> Sally, ANYTHING used on a pet wrongly can cause serious damage and once again, I do not think that you have read my thread through.
> 
> Have you seen the damage done by cats getting their leg through their collar! Some injuries are so bad that the vets have had no option but to put them to sleep.
> 
> ...


Just re posting this again, since it concurs with Janice's last post.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

I personally don't like them,I don't see any place for them in training a dog whatsoever.
A dog's training should be fun,positive, and enjoyable for both dog and owner,so what if it takes a little more time.

To me training with an E-Collar is lazy,quick fix and doesn't always cure the issue's anyway.Dogs have bitten whilst these collars have been used.Dogs have been pts after developing aggression through the use of these collars.
So instead of saving dogs lives they can also be a contributing factor in there death.

A man was jailed for 16 years in the USA for using an e-collar on his children,yet we allow them to be used on dogs.

The sooner a ban is brought in the better for dog's welfare.

If you take on a dog,then make sure you have the time to train it properly,not a quick solution by the use of an e-collar,no matter what problems my dogs ever develop,I will never resort to using such a cruel dispicable method of training.
Where there is a will,there is a way,there is always another option without the use of such barbaric tools.

A Dam disaplining her pups is totally different to an owner shocking a dog,I can't see how the two can be compared in all honesty.

Sorry definatly not for me and in all honesty I don't have much respect for those that feel it necessary to inflict,fear and pain on a dog through there incapability to train a dog!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Its far to easy for people to abuse/misuse these devices, so many dogs suffer the consequence.

i personally feel that anything which is Specifically designed to cause Pain or discomfort to an animal should be banned!!!!


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

We also keep hearing the saying I used one and didn't feel the shock etc,everyone has different pain thresholds,the same goes for dogs,so what one dog does not feel another may feel the shock more intense.

If the dog gets wet while wearing the collar the pain level increases,dogs can become neck and head shy and this can lead to aggression problems if the dog is touched in those areas.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Yes used by somebody that doesnt know what they are doing they CAN harm a dog.But as has been pointed several times used properly and on the low levels i see no harm in them.As for it being a lazy persons "quick fix" to train a dog, i would argue Cesar is far from lazy.
And if we are going to use ifs and buts and coulds....we drive cars around all the time,fly in planes ect ect...and yes they CAN kill too..so shall we stop using them, because lets face it,its a quick way for us to get to where we did to get.*


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Yes used by somebody that doesnt know what they are doing they CAN harm a dog.But as has been pointed several times used properly and on the low levels i see no harm in them.As for it being a lazy persons "quick fix" to train a dog, i would argue Cesar is far from lazy.
> And if we are going to use ifs and buts and coulds....we drive cars around all the time,fly in planes ect ect...and yes they CAN kill too..so shall we stop using them, because lets face it,its a quick way for us to get to where we did to get.*


I honestly don't see the relevence of the last part of your post - Point is dogs don't have a choice,we do.
We choose to drive our car,get on that plane etc,dogs do not choose to be electrocuted do they ?
That is the owners choice to train in that way,certainly not the dogs.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I honestly don't see the relevence of the last part of your post - Point is dogs don't have a choice,we do.
> We choose to drive our car,get on that plane etc,dogs do not choose to be electrocuted do they ?
> That is the owners choice to train in that way,certainly not the dogs.


*You've hit the nail on the head sallyanne,its up to each owner to have the choice.And i didnt see the relevance of your post saying about the guy using it on a child, but it all comes down to common sence and choice.*


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> *You've hit the nail on the head sallyanne,its up to each owner to have the choice.And i didnt see the relevance of your post saying about the guy using it on a child, but it all comes down to common sence and choice.*


The point I was trying to make was,it's not acceptable to shock our human family members but acceptable to shock our canine ones.

Hopefully owners will soon be left with no choice,regarding the e-collar.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> *You've hit the nail on the head sallyanne,its up to each owner to have the choice.And i didnt see the relevance of your post saying about the guy using it on a child, but it all comes down to common sence and choice.*


And just imagine the metallity of MANY of those who would choose to use one of these, 
Judging by the the amount of these devices and the cheap prices of them on ebay today they are obviously very much in demand and certainly very affordable. And sorry to murky the waters but look at the country that most of the collars are manufatured in - and we all know how they treat their animals don't we now!! Wonder if anyone has ever checked with the manufacturers if they are tested on animals. The sooner they are banned the better imo.
regards
DT


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And just imagine the metallity of MANY of those who would choose to use one of these,
> Judging by the the amount of these devices and the cheap prices of them on ebay today they are obviously very much in demand and certainly very affordable. And sorry to murky the waters but look at the country that most of the collars are manufatured in - and we all know how they treat their animals don't we now!! Wonder if anyone has ever checked with the manufacturers if they are tested on animals. The sooner they are banned the better imo.
> regards
> DT


There are loads on ebay,one for as little as £10 

They are very cheap,the most expensive one was £93.

And for anyone who doesn't know what they are or look like,click the link,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3-Tones-8-Lev...14&_trkparms=72:1686|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

It seems that the point is once again being missed and previous posts are being ignored!

Sally and Sue, I completely agree that there is every opportunity for these collars to be misused. But I will again reiterate that having tested an e collar I found absolutely no pain at level 2 -3. 

Neither do I think, that the people having shared their stories regarding the e collar, were barbaric. I think that they were desperate to save their dogs from being put to sleep, and the e collar, used correctly prevented that.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

Nina said:


> It seems that the point is once again being missed and previous posts are being ignored!
> 
> Sally and Sue, I completely agree that there is every opportunity for these collars to be misused. But I will again reiterate that having tested an e collar I found absolutely no pain at level 2 -3.
> 
> Neither do I think, that the people having shared their stories regarding the e collar, were barbaric. I think that they were desperate to save their dogs from being put to sleep, and the e collar, used correctly prevented that.


Nina,we all have different pain thresholds,what may have not been painful for you may be very painful for someone else.
Yes E-Collars have been used sucessfully,they have also been responsible for injury and death of dogs!

Roll on the ban!


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## Kuroku (Oct 21, 2008)

Using an E-Collar in my opinion is too risky. If used incorrectly it could make behavioural problems much worse. If it becomes faulty could also become a health risk.

It's easy enough to distract from bad behaviour with food or toy and praise for good behaviour. And when I say distract with a toy, I don't mean just stand there waving the toy at the dog's face. Be exciting! Don't be afraid to act silly (i.e. dance around with toy in high-pitched squeaky voice) with your dog out in public.

You need to become more interesting than the other dog. My dog who previously lunged at other dogs when they were playing, has now mastered the 'watch' command in this situation where he watches the treat in my hand and therefore whilst distracted, he no longer lunges when other dogs are playing or practising Agility.

Yes it is hard work but rewarding in the end. You shouldn't have to 'force' a dog to behave.


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

Kuroku said:


> Using an E-Collar in my opinion is too risky. If used incorrectly it could make behavioural problems much worse. If it becomes faulty could also become a health risk.
> 
> It's easy enough to distract from bad behaviour with food or toy and praise for good behaviour. And when I say distract with a toy, I don't mean just stand there waving the toy at the dog's face. Be exciting! Don't be afraid to act silly (i.e. dance around with toy in high-pitched squeaky voice) with your dog out in public.
> 
> ...


Very well said!


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## rictic (Mar 10, 2009)

the use of the collars, spray,vibrate or e collar is *NOT USED TO FORCE A DOG TO COMPLY WITH A COMMAND* they should be strictly used just to attract a dogs attention to you the handler at a distance.

i.e. when you are off leash and unable to to work close up.

if used as a 'force' it is being used totally wrong.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rictic said:


> the use of the collars, spray,vibrate or e collar is *NOT USED TO FORCE A DOG TO COMPLY WITH A COMMAND* they should be strictly used just to attract a dogs attention to you the handler at a distance.
> 
> i.e. when you are off leash and unable to to work close up.
> 
> if used as a 'force' it is being used totally wrong.


but the dog still feels the same discomfort!


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

rictic said:


> the use of the collars, spray,vibrate or e collar is *NOT USED TO FORCE A DOG TO COMPLY WITH A COMMAND* they should be strictly used just to attract a dogs attention to you the handler at a distance.
> 
> i.e. when you are off leash and unable to to work close up.
> 
> if used as a 'force' it is being used totally wrong.


Think using an ecoller just to attract a dogs attention is a bit extreme myself' can think of far more efficient methods, but then I know my dogs!
DT


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## rictic (Mar 10, 2009)

i know people will never see eye to eye on this.

personally i would never use an e collar as i stated far earlier. but i can see where they could be a useful tool used correctly.
the aim is not to hurt the dog. or cause any pain. if it gets to that it is being used wrongly.

a dog 100 yards away distracted by a smell is going to be difficult to control for instance. 

i am not an advocate of e collars but i have always mentioned spray and vibrating ones as well. peeps have just picked up on the ecollar words in my posts.


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

It's been a month now since I last posted on this thread, I've been biting my lip very hard! But I'm not posting again now to comment on the rights or wrongs of the ecollar (if anyone is interested in where I stand on them you can flick back to pages 5 & 6), but instead I wanted to say how dissapointing it is to read so many smug comments from people who understand their dogs so well and have had so much success in training that they would never need to use such a device.

How wonderful you are.

How can a mere mortal feel comfortable in asking for advice or sharing their experiences if they get bombarded with heavy criticism and name calling?

If we were all to open a thread, or submit a post, giving a blow by blow account of what the problem is, when, why, how, who, etc etc and with in-depth information about behavioural programs, training techniques, life style changes, dietry changes, etc etc that we have tried.... no-one would have the time to read them!!!

We're making judgements on peoples choices from just a whiff of insight into their lives. Please remember that. Surely we should support owners experiencing problems, not intimidate and exclude?

Would I be right in thinking there may be some misunderstanding surrounding the intended use of the ecollar? They are supposed to be used as an 'interruptor' when the dog has been triggered into a fixed mindset that is otherwise uninteruptable - it should be used for a split second and supported with an already established training technique (such as recall) and an established reward system (click/treat etc). The collar is not intended for enforcing a 'sit' or 'fetch' for eg

If we consider other 'interrupting' products on the market (Pet Corrector, Spray Collars, Sonic collars) we could make a strong argument to support the notion that these too hurt the dog (noise fobias for eg), and could tip him over the edge?.... Each owner should be responsible for assessing their dogs' reaction to any type of training aid and respond accordingly. And I am sure that the folk on this forum do just that


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

Nina said:


> It seems that the point is once again being missed and previous posts are being ignored!
> 
> Sally and Sue, I completely agree that there is every opportunity for these collars to be misused. But I will again reiterate that having tested an e collar I found absolutely no pain at level 2 -3.
> 
> Neither do I think, that the people having shared their stories regarding the e collar, were barbaric. I think that they were desperate to save their dogs from being put to sleep, and the e collar, used correctly prevented that.


I totally agree with you Nina....xxxx  



alphadog said:


> It's been a month now since I last posted on this thread, I've been biting my lip very hard! But I'm not posting again now to comment on the rights or wrongs of the ecollar (if anyone is interested in where I stand on them you can flick back to pages 5 & 6), but instead I wanted to say how dissapointing it is to read so many smug comments from people who understand their dogs so well and have had so much success in training that they would never need to use such a device.
> 
> How wonderful you are.
> 
> ...


Brilliant post and very valid points. Well said. 
Personally although i am not keen on the idea of E Collars the truth is as an ANIMAL LOVER i would much prefer to use an E Collar than see a dog be put to sleep because he was considered dangerous or no home could be found for him due to their behaviour. So in that instance to me it would be the lesser of two evils by far. Clearly the use of these things should be the last resort and not abused.


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## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

alphadog said:


> It's been a month now since I last posted on this thread, I've been biting my lip very hard! But I'm not posting again now to comment on the rights or wrongs of the ecollar (if anyone is interested in where I stand on them you can flick back to pages 5 & 6), but instead I wanted to say how dissapointing it is to read so many smug comments from people who understand their dogs so well and have had so much success in training that they would never need to use such a device.
> 
> How wonderful you are.
> 
> ...


I love this post 

There were so many things that I didn't mention in my original post one being that Ben pinned my child because he had accidentally tripped over Bens legs, he was snarling into my childs face...

I took him to training classes every week, I followed the dominant dog programme, the dog eats last, I walk through the door first, etc... I followed every bit of advice I was given by the training instructors only to be told as I was being dragged and bitten that it was *Never the dog it was always the owner* such a useful tool don't you think 

Occasionally extreme problems require more than praise and treats, I have been training dogs all my life through play and reward, Ben was the only dog I have ever considered putting to sleep for his own good and for the good of my family, I am soooo glad I met the guy that offered me the chance to give Ben a long and happy life with a family that loved and adored him.

I don't think that judging someone elses decision to do something that you think you would never do is really helpful, I agree with *alphadog * and I feel that people will stop posting or asking for advice if we base our reactions on just our own experiences.

Some of you may have experienced a dog like Ben some of you may not have ever even met a dog like him, what none of you can know from my post is that I put months and months of work into him before I used the collar that changed the rest of our lives together.

A few months ago I was having major problems with a puppy that I had taken from a really bad environment, I posted asking for some help and advice on a different forum to this, *I was told by some people that I have never met *_that it was always the owner never the dog_ I was told to rehome her as I wasn't the _right owner _for the pup...

9 months on and she is the most amazing little lady I have ever known, the reason she is amazing is not because I went off and bought a c collar or an e collar lol the reason is because my vet said give her a month take her back to the beginning, pretend that you have never met before  I love my vet, I took her back to basics changed her diet, started raw feeding her, I sat with her ever meal time (6 times a day tiny puppy meals) within a few days she was a changed girl. The reason I am mentioning this story is because even though the problems were extreme, She isn't Ben, she responded to the gentle approach I was using and will continue to use for the rest of her life.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

my big concern is they are now just to easy to get hold of & many more dogs are going to suffer as a consequence, so i dont think its wrong for people to point out the harm they can cause. Someone new on here reading this can judge for themselves & see that they are not always a quick fix to undesirable behaviour & in lots & lots of documented cases dogs have suffered tremendously.

Maybe there is a place for them but i think only as a last resort for an extreme beavioural problem where the alternative would be euthanasia,& not in the hands of the inexperienced. Although personally i would prefer to see an outright ban because i believe more dogs suffer than are saved.

most of my dogs cant be trusted off lead i dont see this as a problem at all.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wow, a fairly provocative subject!!!

I'd like to say I'll sit firmly on the fence (electric or not)! 

When I first started working trials training, the same place dealt with dogs that had massive behavioural issues, to be perfectly honest, these are the kind of dogs that you would question if they could or should be rehabilitated. One of them was a very large GSD who wanted to eat the world and everything in it, except his owner, who, over a period of time with the use of a pinch and an e-collar, went from a dog that couldn't be in the same field as a another living creature, to a dog that could do close heelwork, and be off lead doing article retrieves in a field full of other dogs and humans. I've seen both pinch and e-collars being used with 'good' results in different situations. 

I'd never buy a pinch or an e-collar, and I don't think they should be so readily available, but then I've never been in the situation where I've had a problem dog that would warrant their use, in any way. But I have also, unfortunately, seen and heard of pinch and e-collars being misused. I had one woman I used to bump into regularly, ask me about e-collars, she wanted to buy one to put on her springer dog to stop him barking, I told her it wasn't at all appropriate, she got one anyway. Six months later, she had a corgi pup who was absolutely adorable and she proudly told me how he barked at her to get her attention, I haven't seen her since, but wonder if he's inherited the e-collar yet.

I think there's two big issues with the situations I've seen 'control' devices being used, the dogs with behavioural issues where I've seen what I would call positive results, used in the hands of the trainer, and not owned by the dog handler, have all been rescues. These dogs were ones that rather than be pts because of their problems, the rescue organisations involved had rehomed them in what I would personally deem to be the hands of people who did not have the knowledge or where withall to handle the dogs. They were just incredibly lucky to have found someone who could and would help them. And can I just add a disclaimer here that not all the problem dogs at training had these methods used, just some of the extreme ones, where it was felt that it would work. I know not all rescue organisations are like this, in fact I'm sure its thankfully a small minority, but I felt they had rehomed these dogs irresponsibly, in some cases downright dangerously.

The other big issue, is dog owner ignorance, highlighted by the 'stop barking' woman. I think you can pretty much put the behaviour of any problem dog down to how it's been treated by humans at some point in its life, whether its been obviously abused and treated badly, or, and in some cases I think this is worse, where the dog has been 'humanised' by the owner and trained to perform in some way, which the owner then deems is unacceptable and wants their dog to act like a dog again. I've had/got both these with Chloe, where she has obviously been hit, possibly quite hard (enough to even perhaps have caused minor brain damage) in the past, and conversely where some one has 'loved' her enough, to over feed and underexercise her, at the same time encouraging her to perform like a circus act, squealing and dancing and getting excited about food, people, walks - in such an extreme manner, that other dogs don't quite know what to make of her, such unnatural behaviour can sometimes provoke another dog to bite or attack. I'd rather ban this sort of ignorant owner than e-collars to be perfectly honest.

Funnily enough, it was brought up on another forum I go on recently, that possibly the spray type citrus collars are just as cruel as an e-collar. If you think of the way a dogs' nose works, and what a powerful apparatus it is, someone squirting citrus in your face is going to be a very unpleasant experience.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

alphadog said:


> It's been a month now since I last posted on this thread, I've been biting my lip very hard! But I'm not posting again now to comment on the rights or wrongs of the ecollar (if anyone is interested in where I stand on them you can flick back to pages 5 & 6), but instead I wanted to say how dissapointing it is to read so many smug comments from people who understand their dogs so well and have had so much success in training that they would never need to use such a device.
> 
> How wonderful you are.


Just wanted to pick up on the above,
I don't consider myself smug,I had an incredibly difficult dog come back home to us,he was a complete nightmare.
He had been treated badly,had fear aggression,people aggression and dog aggression.Those in the breed advised us to have him pts that's how bad he was.
I had him back in our house,the home he was born into,I was ultimately responsible for him because I had bred him,I also had 3 young children in the home.
We had 3 choices,pts,go right back to basic's with training or train through fear and pain.This dog had, had enough fear and pain in his short life,I would never add to that by using an e-collar.My choice,I don't believe in training that way,it's up to other's what they do and how they would have dealt with this dog.
It took months and months,day in,day out of training,it was damn hard work,I do not regret one single day of it,not one!
We didn't seek the use of a shock collar and choose to electrocute a dog for the owner's mistakes,instead we used common sense,gentle handling and positive reinforcement.Yes it took time as I said and it was not a quick fix solution like many look for with the use of such a shock collar, spray or otherwise.
I don't consider this smug,but everyone to their own,whatever floats your boat,the only day I regret was selling him to his previous owners,a big mistake I made,I hold my hands up so that makes me responsible for what happened to him, 
He was two and half years old,when he came home as a complete wreck,he now lives with a very close family friend and will be 14 years old in October, and you know what I am extremely proud of what I and my O/H achieved and did with this dog with out the use of an e-collar if that makes me smug so be it!

I am genuinely interested to know what owner's would have done if these collars had been banned years ago and how they will deal with future problems when they are eventually banned ?


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Alot of you say it can save a dogs life used as a last resort etc,but it could also kill a dog, dogs act completely out of character when in pain, for example,if the dog recieved a painful shock,it may run and take off,it may run straight out infront of a car,causing a serious accident and a very badly injured if not dead dog,or another example it could take off through a field full of sheep to be met by a farmers gun,
> A dog could assiociate anything with a shock,not necessarily what the trainer /owner is doing or trying to achieve, the dog has a choice with the use of electric fences,it can avoid a shock by avoiding it,it has not got such a choice with a E - Collar.
> I can see a long list of why I wouldn't use them but nobody has given me an acceptable reason as to why they should be used.


I'll try to give you an 'acceptable' reason sallyanne, but I will also stress that I AM NOT PRO ECOLLARS, before I start, so please keep an open mind.

To help me paint a picture of why an owner/trainer may choose to use a remote control ecollar, I would like you all to imagine that the collar is in fact a spray collar with ouderless spray, not an ecollar. This might go some way to removing the emotive issues surrounding ecollars whilst we look at possible reasons for their decision.....

In some rehabilitation cases, the dog is very sensitive to correction that can directly be associated to the handler. This sensitivity can be displayed through mistrust in the form of cowering, defiance, aggression etc. Whilst we are all advocates of positive training methods, we must acknowledge that with any training technique a time will come where correction is needed, to show the dog that we are not pleased with his behaviour. This may only be a firm 'no', however, in extreme cases, in some dogs this may provoke a reaction of lack of trust toward his handler. Expecting the dog to relax and get 'back on task' after an extreme show of lost trust, so that the handler can continue with reward and positive reinforcement, is a very tall order.

It is incredibly difficult to make even small steps of progress using positive training methods alone with any dog, without the need for correction at some point or another. Dog's who are predispositioned to mistrust may find their problems escalating as a result.

So, where does a remote collar come in?... Has anyone ever tried to prevent a dog from digging the garden by burying an inflated balloon in his favourite digging spot so that when he digs there the next time the balloon will pop and break his digging fixation? The principle of this is simple....the dog cannot associate the pop with the handler, because it was entirely of his own doing. Dog thinks - ''digging = bad, run back to my handler = good''

Taking that principle out on the road, so to speak, the remote collar provides an interruption to unwanted/dangerous behaviour without the dog making an association with the handler. Backed up with a recall and reward system, the dog will soon learn that ''I'll avoid the naughty stuff that puffs air in my face and return/calm down, when asked, for my reward!''

There are dozens of circumstances where I feel owners would choose to try the collar route, for eg - when the dog displays firmly deep rooted, highly obsessive behaviour that manifests itself in dangerous forms. Dangerous not only in the literal sense (aggression/sheep worrying etc) but in the more subtle sense that a dog may be ruining it's own enjoyment of life, mental health and physical health because of OCD tendancies that have simply taken over.

Owners in these situations may choose to work with a remote collar in an attempt to break the cycle, interrupt, and distract the fixated brain and redirect attention onto the owner who then stands a chance of progressing with positive training methods. (sorry, but waving a toy around simply ain't gonna do it with extreme dogs!)

Having said all that, the fact remains that e-collars are not spray collars. I agree with the other posts who cay that the products on the market have settings that are disgracefully high, (I have tried one on my arm and I don't fancy hanging around to try anything above the 5 setting - which is not quite as bad as an electric fence, but getting there) and this is a disaster for there will always be the chance for the collars to fall into the hands of angry, trigger happy owners.

Imho, it would be far better if spray collars were the first choice in 'last resort' situations, but I have to concede that *spray collars are not always effective - some dogs completely ignore the spray and all-but the most perfect weather conditions reduce their effectiveness dramatically*. Perhaps this is why there is a gap in the market, that is currently filled with the ecollar.

Perhaps we should invent something to supercede the ecollar and then it will naturally become obsolete!!


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

Our posts overlapped here sallyanne, so I apologise if it looks like I've dsregarded your comments - not the case honestly!!

I could give you three examples of dogs I've owned where I have given serious consideration to using an ecollar, but that is all it was, consideration. In the case of the late Mr Archie I spent 6 years rehabilitating him (he had serveral acute behavioural issues), I lost my home, my social life, my friends and very nearly my family as a result. I really, really feel for owners who have been in a similar position and decided to try the ecollar not as a quick fix, but as an aid to moving forwards. 

xx


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

alphadog said:


> I'll try to give you an 'acceptable' reason sallyanne, but I will also stress that I AM NOT PRO ECOLLARS, before I start, so please keep an open mind.
> 
> To help me paint a picture of why an owner/trainer may choose to use a remote control ecollar, I would like you all to imagine that the collar is in fact a spray collar with ouderless spray, not an ecollar. This might go some way to removing the emotive issues surrounding ecollars whilst we look at possible reasons for their decision.....
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting 
I do understand some dogs can be a danger not only to themselves but to others and have obsessions and fixations.
I just feel that some owners turn to the e-collar and alike far too easy instead of trying to work and train through problems first,but then we live in that sort of society nowadays,whereby we want instant results.

I do understand how upsetting these dogs can be for their owners and how frustrating it can get.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> Thanks for posting
> I do understand some dogs can be a danger not only to themselves but to others and have obsessions and fixations.
> I just feel that some owners turn to the e-collar and alike far too easy instead of trying to work and train through problems first,but then we live in that sort of society nowadays,whereby we want instant results.
> 
> I do understand how upsetting these dogs can be for their owners and how frustrating it can get.


So now Sally who can begin to understand a little 

I have NEVER stated that I was pro an e collar and you and I are not poles apart on this one 

I always considered the darn things to be an absolute no no for training and still do. The fact that they have such high settings, is barbaric. Having felt the force of a 5, believe me it darn well hurt.

However, I do feel that in extreme cases, where all else has failed and there is a danger of a dog being pts, there is a place for them, all be it on a very low setting.

I do think that they should be banned as they are now, but if someone could redesign them to give no more than a little tingle (where spray collars have failed), then I cannot see a problem.

I do not consider myself to be a bad owner, indeed we tried everything with Zak (except the e collar). He lived to be almost 13 and would have caused serious damage given the chance. Why, I will never know, but believe me I cried many tears over that dog. I loved him dearly, but I am in no doubt, that in the wrong hands, he would not have made his third birthday.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

A couple of fantastic and well balanced posts on this page. Just one thing to add in that I do not think that people that bother to ask advice on this forum, are the ones who cannot be bothered to train their dogs. Probably quite the opposite, the fact they are even bothering to ask people's opinion demonstrates that they do want to do the best.

Personally I would like to see anything that hurts an animal regulated and indeed I think all owners should be regulated by way of having to buy a licence. That would help prevent the wrong people getting dogs.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

goodvic2 said:


> A couple of fantastic and well balanced posts on this page. Just one thing to add in that I do not think that people that bother to ask advice on this forum, are the ones who cannot be bothered to train their dogs. Probably quite the opposite, the fact they are even bothering to ask people's opinion demonstrates that they do want to do the best.
> 
> Personally I would like to see anything that hurts an animal regulated and indeed I think all owners should be regulated by way of having to buy a licence. That would help prevent the wrong people getting dogs.


I agree


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> We didn't seek the use of a shock collar and choose to electrocute a dog for the owner's mistakes,instead we used common sense,gentle handling and positive reinforcement.Yes it took time as I said and it was not a quick fix solution like many look for with the use of such a shock collar, spray or otherwise.


A minor electric shock is not the same as electrocution. Electrocution causes death or physical damage because of the strength of the electric current, such as attaching the dog to the mains. E-collars used properly may cause discomfort or shock, but this is not electrocution. Words have meanings, let's use them accurately and not go for inappropriate emotive terms.
I don't like e-collars, and understand they can do a lot of damage if used with bad timing, to punish or on timid dogs. However they can be instances where a quick fix is necessary to save the dog's life, for instance car or sheep chasing, or to prevent the dog attacking other animals such as the muntjack mentioned somewhere in the thread. I'm not in favour of a total ban, but would be happy with a system where the only access to them was via a professional who could teach how to use them safely, and then loan them out for a limited period.


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## rictic (Mar 10, 2009)

it used to be the case that you needed a dog licence. god how old am i lol.

i think you still should.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> However they can be instances where a quick fix is necessary to save the dog's life, for instance car or sheep chasing, or to prevent the dog attacking other animals such as the muntjack mentioned somewhere in the thread. .


i dont understand why a quick fix is necessary for a situation like chasing cars or prey ... surely common sense would tell to keep the dog on a lead until the dogs behaviour is retrained not to chase....

... i have two dogs chasing prey if given the chance....IF given the chance


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Natik said:


> i dont understand why a quick fix is necessary for a situation like chasing cars or prey ... surely common sense would tell to keep the dog on a lead until the dogs behaviour is retrained not to chase....
> 
> ... i have two dogs chasing prey if given the chance....IF given the chance


Dogs on leads lunge at cars, other dogs and prey too, and a medium to large dog can pull the owner over all too easily, get into the road and be hit by a car. And how do you know just how successful your retraining has been until the lead is off and the dog knows it? And what if the prey is an adder? My friend's dog died last autumn from an adder bite.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> Dogs on leads lunge at cars, other dogs and prey too, and a medium to large dog can pull the owner over all too easily, get into the road and be hit by a car. And how do you know just how successful your retraining has been until the lead is off and the dog knows it? And what if the prey is an adder? My friend's dog died last autumn from an adder bite.


well...the owner surely will know if the dog is strong enough to be able to pull the owner along. If yes, then there is a solution of using a halti, as an example, to have more control over the dog.

U also will find out if ur retraining has been succesfull if u try the dog on said situation but in an controlled envirement....


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2009)

rictic said:


> it used to be the case that you needed a dog licence. god how old am i lol.
> 
> i think you still should.


the last I remember the licence cost 7s 6d which equates to approx 37.5p and that was for life if I recall correctly. I think a dog licence should be more like a TV licence that you have to apply for every year, and that you should have to fill in new ownership details if ever you need to rehome the dog! It would be nigh on impossible to set up though!
DT


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> the last I remember the licence cost 7s 6d which equates to approx 37.5p and that was for life if I recall correctly. I think a dog licence should be more like a TV licence that you have to apply for every year, and that you should have to fill in new ownership details if ever you need to rehome the dog! It would be nigh on impossible to set up though!
> DT


Chin up, there's hope, in the form of the DOT.

Read all about the proposals here.... http://www.petparliament.com/viewart...1&vid=0&npage=

I've been reading about it on another forum, I'll contact the pet forums administrator and ask for permission to post the URL for that thread. Very interesting and lots of Q's are answered.


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

alphadog said:


> Chin up, there's hope, in the form of the DOT.
> 
> Read all about the proposals here.... http://www.petparliament.com/viewart...1&vid=0&npage=
> 
> I've been reading about it on another forum, I'll contact the pet forums administrator and ask for permission to post the URL for that thread. Very interesting and lots of Q's are answered.


Just thinking, as this thread now seems to be morphing into a different topic, I'll start a new thread about DOT so that people who may be avoiding this thread (for obvious reasons!!) will pick up on it too.


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> A minor electric shock is not the same as electrocution. Electrocution causes death or physical damage because of the strength of the electric current, such as attaching the dog to the mains. E-collars used properly may cause discomfort or shock, but this is not electrocution. Words have meanings, let's use them accurately and not go for inappropriate emotive terms.
> I don't like e-collars, and understand they can do a lot of damage if used with bad timing, to punish or on timid dogs. However they can be instances where a quick fix is necessary to save the dog's life, for instance car or sheep chasing, or to prevent the dog attacking other animals such as the muntjack mentioned somewhere in the thread. I'm not in favour of a total ban, but would be happy with a system where the only access to them was via a professional who could teach how to use them safely, and then loan them out for a limited period.


Even though I have had huge success with mine, I do 100% agree that they should not be as freely available to just anyone. I can only imagine how painful these could be if not used properly. I have never used mine above number 3 and this has been enough to distract him. I have had the collar now for over 2 months, its only ever worn for 45 mins each day during an off leash walk (never use it when he is on lead - obviously) and have only had to use the shock on 4 occasions. Once when he chased a cat that flew out from a hedge before I could see it (He would have tore its head off if he had caught it), once when he bolted after a rabbit towards the road, once when he dragged a dead sheep carcuss from a stream and tried to run off with it and once for chasing some kids on a bike (although the little beggars were calling him!). Now all I have to do is whistle/call him and occasionally I use the bleep button just to reinforce and hes wonderful!

It has given me so much confidence just to know I have it as a back up, because there is nothing I wouldn't do to keep him safe - He is my life.

I wish I could post a video just to show all the sceptics how wonderful these things can be if used properly - And, by the way , I totally agree with the dog licence thing, I would pay any amount.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I think you've done exactly the right thing and you have my support. It is very easy to crititize these sort of methods, but sometimes it really is a necessity. I have started using spray collars for 2 of my rescue's, some people even say they are un necessary and cruel. Luckily, nobody has challenged me on that yet.....!

You are a very responsible dog owner and I think you deserve praise for it.

Vicky x


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

Thank you Vicky, you have restored my faith in humanity!

I really appreciate your support.

Not sure I dare put anything on this forum any more!!

XX


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

6660carrie said:


> Thank you Vicky, you have restored my faith in humanity!
> 
> I really appreciate your support.
> 
> ...


*Dont worry about it..We have all got choices and i for one don't disagree with you..People will never agree all of the time.*


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## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

> Dont worry about it..We have all got choices and i for one don't disagree with you..People will never agree all of the time.


Too true :yesnod:


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

6660carrie said:


> Thank you Vicky, you have restored my faith in humanity!
> 
> I really appreciate your support.
> 
> ...


Listen, you should NOT think like this at all. You did what you thought was right for your dog and it worked.

As the owner of a dog that had real aggression issues, I can totally empathise with your situation, hence I felt I had to offer my support, following some of the critical replies.

Chin up


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## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

I agree with nina

Each to their own, you obviously care deeply about your dog and have found something that worked which means you and he can have more fun in life together


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Changes said:


> I agree with nina
> 
> Each to their own, you obviously care deeply about your dog and have found something that worked which means you and he can have more fun in life together


Harmony at last


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## jesterjenn (Apr 1, 2009)

What is the name of this collar please? Did you say it had a beep thing on it for before the shock?

So glad it works.

Jen


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2009)

jesterjenn said:


> What is the name of this collar please? Did you say it had a beep thing on it for before the shock?
> 
> So glad it works.
> 
> Jen


What ??? are you acting your name?


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> What ??? are you acting your name?


Bit harsh!

Jen, I would read through the whole thread (I know it's a long one!) before you make any decisions on whether you want to try one of these. There are other training aids available and depending on your problem/tried methods, they may be more appropriate.

Welcome btw!!
:biggrin:


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2009)

alphadog said:


> Bit harsh!
> 
> Welcome btw!!
> :biggrin:


Yep! it was - and for me very tame actually!!

BUT - having said that - I have read the other posts by the poster and can see that she had not read the full thread and was merely asking a question - so hope I have not offended you Jess and welcome from me also!! I was having a senior moment!!! Or a blonde one

You after Rona's Job Alphadog???? she's the one that normally slaps my wrists

DT


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

I am very glad you found something that works for you. I think if its your last resort, and you've tried everything else, and there is a real risk of thedog getting hurt or even kiled by running into a road etc, then surely it is better. 
I hope I never will have to resort to one of these, but I would say its better than a possibly dead dog. I keep my GSD on lead because he is a bit dog aggressive(long story about some westies) and he gets distracted by smells and he won't eat when he's out and he doesn't like toys! It seems a shame, and my dad takes the risk at lets him off but luckily he is not very active so he doesnt really like to run about anyway!

Here's another case of when used correctly it can work well:
I worked with someone who owned horses and a 4 year old rescue german shepherd(plus a newfie and newfie x). The german shepherd was persistently running up to the horses and attacking them, biting legs etc and on one occasion did alot of damage to one of the horses faces. He had also been kicked by horses on multipul occasions. She had electric fences around the paddcks but figuring that would hurt a hell of a lot more she got an e-collar. a few weeks after using it when the dog crossed the fence line, the dog learn't horses and the paddocks were off limits. by the time I started there he didn't have to wear the collar, he would respond to verbal commands that the woman had used when using the collar. The options were to keep the dog in its kennel all day or to rehome him(which considering he has little bladder/bowel control - and she still rehomed him from GSD rescue-would not be easy to do) or god forbid wait until he got killed by a horse or a horse got so badly hurt by him it had to be PTS.

I would never ever say to use one on a puppy or indeed a nervous dog.

Don't worry about posting on here, say what you like as far as I'm concerned, people will always have different views, but should always respect others.

*Heidi*


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

jesterjenn said:


> What is the name of this collar please? Did you say it had a beep thing on it for before the shock?
> 
> So glad it works.
> 
> Jen


Hi Jen, I can happily let you know the name of the collar but I agree you should consider every possible other option. I think it all depends on the problem you have as even I don't believe its a quick fix for all issues.

It has worked wonders for me personally and I wouldn't go anywhere now off lead without it but as you will see from some of the posts its not for everyone.

If you do genuinly want the details, let me know.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2009)

6660carrie said:


> Thank you Vicky, you have restored my faith in humanity!
> 
> I really appreciate your support.
> 
> ...


Hi Carrie

I am normally a lurker here but was reading this thread and couldn't help but want to respond to this post!

There are many people who own dogs that they put in the too hard basket and give up when it comes to training (you commonly hear it in rescue).

Good on you for finding something that works for you and your dog!  I've never needed to use an e-collar on my dogs, but having used them on myself at training seminars and been shown the correct way to use them (low stim only) I have no problem with them when they are used properly, under the guidance of an experienced trainer/behaviourist, using a good training program.

The collar I had on me was one with 127 levels, I didn't feel the stim until it was on level 15, and even then it was just like a tingle sensation. Some people who haven't used e-collars or have seem the be misused, or more appropriately, used to abuse a dog, don't realise that a good trainer will find the dog's working level. To the dog it is akin to a flea bite, you have to be quite experienced to even realise when the dog is feeling the stim because the cues are very subtle. The dogs I've seen working with the collars on have never shown any signs of fear, or submissiveness, in fact quite the opposite - heads up high, happy expression on their faces, tails wagging and not a single sign of stress - because they were used properly.

Any tool can be misused or used to abuse a dog. It is important to remember this with any tool we use - the onus is on the owner to use it properly and only when that tool is appropriate for that dog.

Head collars are a big pet hate of mine for a variety of reasons, and I regularly see them misused by owners, because they are marketed as an easy to use, 'gentle' tool people often aren't aware on how to fit them properly or use them correctly, with minimal risk of injury to the dog. A dog can be choked to death on a flat collar, or abused by their owner's own 
hand. I have met some absolutely terrible 'purely positive' trainers too, who use positive reinforcement incorrectly and end up making the dog's behaviour worse! Yes, even rewards can be used inappropriately.

Instead of pointing the finger at the tool, we should look at educating
owners on how to use them properly (or in some cases, not at all).

Anyway, I really just wanted to post to say good work on getting some great progress with your dog - you should feel proud of your achievements!  I was going to just PM you, but I'm not sure if I can use the PM function yet


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Ye its a quick fix item for lots of people, wonder how many users have tried it on their necks.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Ye its a quick fix item for lots of people, wonder how many users have tried it on their necks.


I haven't put it on my neck (just on my arm) but I would have no problem doing so, I would be happy to - but most people I find have their concerns about the collar alleviated once they feel how low a stim you actually work on. That is assuming you have a good quality collar that is being used properly! it feels more like a vibration than it does a static shock.

I don't agree with using bandaids in dog training, people who use tools as a replacement for training ultimately fail because they haven't done the training to go along with them. However, it can be useful to use a tool along with a training program - at least that has been my experience! 

ETA: Even clickers are tools, we use them all the time. It is how you use them that is important.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2009)

Mine must be pretty gruesome then because it hurts above level three!!! ( but then it is one of the so call 'professional ones' costing a couple of hundred quid, it was produced before this cheap chinese cr*p that you get on fleabay! If anyone want to disagree with me 'feel free' i'll willingly test is on you!:mad5::mad5:
DT


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Mine must be pretty gruesome then because it hurts above level three!!! ( but then it is one of the so call 'professional ones' costing a couple of hundred quid, it was produced before this cheap chinese cr*p that you get on fleabay! If anyone want to disagree with me 'feel free' i'll willingly test is on you!:mad5::mad5:
> DT


I wonder which collar it was! I have only ever tried the Dogtra and Innotek ones. They do have varying levels, but like I said, the last one I had on me I didn't feel until level 15! They are very expensive though, a few hundred dollars (Australian).

The goal isn't to work on a high level stim, and a good collar will start on levels that you cannot feel and work it's way up slowly to a more tingle-y feeling.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2009)

I am looking for it now!!! it was put away about four years ago! But Dogtra is ringing bells! When I find it I am going to photo it and post on the forum!
DT


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I am looking for it now!!! it was put away about four years ago! But Dogtra is ringing bells! When I find it I am going to photo it and post on the forum!
> DT


Would love to know what model it is! Although it may be different to the ones I have used, if it is more than four years old. The ones I've used have been brand new.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2009)

Yes - the one I have is more likely to be nearer 10 years old!


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yes - the one I have is more likely to be nearer 10 years old!


Oh wow! I've not ever used one that old, I will have to ask one of the trainers I know the difference between the ones they have now and the ones from ten years ago! I wonder how different the technology is now.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JSR said:


> Nope I'm afraid I don't do things by halves and I always research before I pass judgement and believe me it hurts. Maybe you have a lower pain threshold than me and I imagine your dog proberly does to. Shame he can't tell you if it hurts or not isn't it? I'd rather stick to good old fashioned reward based training for my dogs.
> 
> I'd come to heel pretty damn quick myself given an electric shock!:ihih:


Ime sure they hurt wonder how it would feel if users tried it on their own necks like the dogs.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Ime sure they hurt wonder how it would feel if users tried it on their own necks like the dogs.


LOL Haeveymolly, like I said on the last page, I would have no problem putting them on my neck. I could barely feel the stim when it was on my arm!


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