# Urgent Unpredictable Male English Bull Terrier



## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

*[/B

Urgent advise needed; I homed a 7 week old male french bulldog, then a week later a 8 week old female english bull terrier. Theses two dogs grew up together and have good natured temperments, although the male frenchie thinks he is the higher rank. When these were both 6 months old i homed a 8 month old male bull terrier. They all appeared to get along fine, id take them all out to the fields together etc but after several weeks problems began to arise and i now manage the two males separately at all times dTe to the fact that the male bull terrier and male frenchie are confrontational and fight. I have had a consultation with a vet/pet behaviourist which lasted 3 hours, i also took the bull terriers along with me. After the session i had 6 months following on support.

Since then there has been several confrontations, and a few of them serious, my french bulldog has had to have his ear stitched for a minor tear, he has had a punctured lip 3 times, and has 5 other scars which are minor. The last incident was this week and i got bite in the crossfire saving my french bulldog and splitting the 2 males up. I am devasted of the thought of having to rehome or let the male bull terrier go to a rescue place.

The behaviourist explained that this problem is competitive agression and i can clearly see that both males are fighting for my undivided attention,of which i try to give them equal treatment.

I am deeply upset and the last incident left me traumatised but i am feeling better today and want to try to correct this issue that i have. I love all my dogs and do not want to give up on any of them. Taking my bull terrier to a rescue place seems very unfair even though he is the one causiing most of the damage, obviously because he is the stronger male of the 2. However the French bulldog gives as good as he gets but because he is smaller and not as strong he always comes off the worst, and i do not want this ending up with the male bull terrier killing him. The french bulldog is fiesty and will not back down or hasnt seemed to.

I am phoning around rescue centres, behaviourists etc and want the best for my male bull terrier.

Any advise please or directions of where to go on this matter.

Im at my wits end.

KR Miss'J*


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Sorry to hear of your traumatic situatiion and what you have had to deal with.

Are any of the dogs neutered at all? That would be my first port of call.

It will be very hard to diagnose any behaviour type remedy over the web as nobody but you can see how and why it all kicks off so someone would have to be there to spot the telltale signs of either dog challenging the other. A visit from a behaviourist would be your last resort here before considering rehoming as the last and final option.

What did the previous behaviourist do witht he dogs or what programme did they put together that has not really had an effect? You don't have to post it if you don't want.

Where are you in the Wolrd and I am sure someone on here will know a reputable behaviuourist to use?


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Please please get a full vet work up and a referral for an APBC behaviourist, which is covered under pet insurance.

This is the essential and main option at this point. In the mean time keep all dogs separate, crate and rotate if you have to. Your dogs have had way too much practice at this behaviour as it is and things are likely to escalate without intervention.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Nither of the males are neutered, i have discussed this with my vet who advises that it doesnt solve the problem in all cases. 

My pet behaviourist observed the dogs and advised that the aggression is competitive (jealousy).

My male bull terrier is the largest and strongest therefore he is the higher of the rank, secondly it is my female bull terrier and lastly my male french bulldog who is the lowest of the rank. However my male frenchie came before my male bully and out of him and my female bully he was higher of the rank. My behaviourist advised me that my male bully has first of everything, secondly my female, lastly my frenchie. I have been doing everything in this order but still my frenchie has not accepted that he has to step down the rank.

I live in the Bristol area.

Rehoming my male bully or any of them is not really an option. I do not want to give up on any of them. I do not have pet insurance.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

hi

i have heard of good results from this guy

Training English Bull Terriers UK - Bull Terrier Training for Bullies

if you feel you need to rehome try the breed specific rescue's frst..i can send you the details if you need them..

juliex


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

i was wanting to send you a p.m but for some reason i cant

juliex


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Just a stab in the dark, have you considered the possibility of getting one castrated, hence allowing the other to be alpha male. With 3 dogs you have a pack environment with both male dogs seeking to take the top spot.


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

sorry to say that you have missed a vital point....your ratio of dogs is back to front....it would have been better to have two females to one male to combat the competetiveness. both your males are at the age that their testosterone levels are doing their utmost to prove which one of them is right for mating! this in itself will create competetiveness between them. it may not be necessarily jealousy for your attention!

i would recommend a bully breed specialist trainer or even contact a bully breed rescue for advice. they may have a specialist behaviourist on their books who can step in and help. 

i hope you get it sorted soon...before any long term damage is done to either the dogs or yourself. they are young enough to be reconditioned into better behaviour but you will need to act fast to stop this escalating totally out of control. neutering would defiinitely help but it wont be a quick fix. it can take up to six months for the hormone levels to reduce and for noticeable differences in behaviour to appear.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

lucysnewmum said:


> sorry to say that you have missed a vital point....your ratio of dogs is back to front....it would have been better to have two females to one male to combat the competetiveness. both your males are at the age that their testosterone levels are doing their utmost to prove which one of them is right for mating! this in itself will create competetiveness between them. it may not be necessarily jealousy for your attention!
> 
> i would recommend a bully breed specialist trainer or even contact a bully breed rescue for advice. they may have a specialist behaviourist on their books who can step in and help.
> 
> i hope you get it sorted soon...before any long term damage is done to either the dogs or yourself. they are young enough to be reconditioned into better behaviour but you will need to act fast to stop this escalating totally out of control. neutering would defiinitely help but it wont be a quick fix. it can take up to six months for the hormone levels to reduce and for noticeable differences in behaviour to appear.


:thumbup: I have to agree. 3 dogs, 2 intact dogs or even bitches, is potentially disasterous. Hope you get it sorted. Must be heart breaking for you.


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

i have found two bull terrier breeders on the kennel club accredited breeders list for you in your area. maybe a quick call to them will have you pointed in the right direction. here is the link.....

Accredited Breeders for Bull Terrier in Avon â¢ The Kennel Club

hope it helps
:thumbup:


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Thank you all of you. I have been on here all night educating myself with regards to this matter. I telephoned Bulls In Need Rescue and they have suggested a behaviourist who travels the uk. I have emailed this person.

At the moment i keep them separate, i have done this for a while now, but accidents happen like not latching the gate correctly grrr. Not good. I have now changed my daily routine and have strict management as this situation cannot happen again. My poor little frenchie looks a right bruiser and i have been left with wounded fingers.

I will keep you all informed on any updates that i have.

KR Miss'J


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> i was wanting to send you a p.m but for some reason i cant
> 
> juliex




Hi Julie...how can i change the settings so that i can recieve pm's ???


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> Hi Julie...how can i change the settings so that i can recieve pm's ???


dont know hun...perhaps you can ask the mods at the top of the page...unless you have to post a certain amount of times before you can get p.m's....

bulliesinneed are a very good rescue also and i am sure they will help you all they can

juliex


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> i was wanting to send you a p.m but for some reason i cant
> 
> juliex


Hi Julie you can pm me now i have changed my settings.

KR Miss'J


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

One bitch and two entire male dogs? Yep, they're gonna argue! :001_cool:


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2010)

That must be so heart breaking for you. 

You are doing the right thing contacting trainers and behavourists (spell?)

Also I agree with something someone said on the other page, with doing it more girls than boys...or at least thats what I have done and am doing great so far.

Good luck and I hope you manage to sort this out.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> One bitch and two entire male dogs? Yep, they're gonna argue! :001_cool:[/QU
> 
> Im new to owning dogs, showing them and wanting to breed in the furture. Im going to control their behaviour then i may consider getting another girl, i have to take the advise of the behaviourist. At the moment im manageing this problem, and i think i do it very well, but i am so annoyed with myself for slipping up on the gate. I have now fixed spring action locks on the gate, so that it shuts itself, if it should ever happen again (i hope not). and have learnt my lesson, i do this religiously now and so does my partner. These dogs are my world, i love them so much and want the best for all three of them.
> 
> ...


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> One bitch and two entire male dogs? Yep, they're gonna argue! :001_cool:


Hi i will have a read tomorrow thank you.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

I contacted Bully SOS who recomended a behaviourist, I emailed this behaviourist the full details from start to end and I still havnt had a reply to
this day! 

Since then I have been keeping the dogs separate and following the advise from the behaviourist I had a consultation with recomended by Rowe vet thing have gone from bad to worse..I have since been bitten in the crossfire twice, once to my finger and four puncture wounds to my leg..

Last Wednesday evening my partner was sat with Bronson my male bull terrier on the settee watching TV whilst I baked cakes. At 11pm he said he was going up to bed and got up off the settee leaving Bronson sat where he was. I said il be up shortely and sat next to Bronson looking straight ahead at the TV. My partner stood behind the settee bent over to kiss me on the forehead, not seeing my partner do so but feeling his presence I heard Bronson do a low tone growl.. I thought to myself that he may attack me so I calmly moved forward to move off the settee, as I did so Bronson lunged at me and bite my left arm causing a inch lacteration.. I was calm as I was in shock, I grabbed his collar to hold him still and he was swinging his head from side to side. I calmly moved backwards towards my patio door and he began jumping up at me savagely. My partner tried to hold his head still and he wriggled out of that, then still in a frenzy he lunged and bite my 
partners wrist locking on to it.. I tried to open the patio door which was locked so I then reached to
the breakfast bar for the key. Whilst I was doing this Bronson had locked onto my partners fist which was in bronsons mouth and he was chomping on his
thumb as my partner said he could hear the crushing noises. I got the patio door open and my partner and bronson were outside on the decking, bronson would not let go of my partners hand and he was bleeding quite severely by now and concerned of how much blood he was loosing screamed for me to phone 999. My partner only got bronson off by strangling him for 5 minutes with his collar.. I then opened the gate and we put the dog into the garden and closed the gate for our safety. 

My partner and I have were in hospital from Wednesday until Monday and both had to have surgery.. My partner has a severely cut hand and was very lucky he did not loose his thumb or hand, if it wasn't the fact that Bronson had a collar on the incident could have been life threatening. His thumb bone had been smashed to smitherines and he now has pins in it in order to help the bone fuse back together.. His hand is going to be out if action for at least 3 months! 

Should this dog be euthanised. I have followed the orders of the behaviourist and the dog has got worse as you have just read.. I love the dog but he can't be trusted.. He has to be muzzled I'm public and he cannot socialise with other dogs and now not even humans.. I am devastated..


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

My girl bull terrier is totally the opposite to my male, she has a lovely temperament so I must be doing something right, I have had her since 8 weeks old. Henri is th same as my girl has a lovely temperament and I have had him since 7 weeks old. Bronson I had from 8 months old and I don't believe he was socialised from a young pup however since he has been with me the past two years he has been loved and brought up the same as my other two but he has turnt out agressive. He is very dominant and possessive even though we don't let him have his own way..he has a walk every day and a routine.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Miss'j said:


> I contacted Bully SOS who recomended a behaviourist, I emailed this behaviourist the full details from start to end and I still havnt had a reply to
> this day!
> 
> Since then I have been keeping the dogs separate and following the advise from the behaviourist I had a consultation with recomended by Rowe vet thing have gone from bad to worse..I have since been bitten in the crossfire twice, once to my finger and four puncture wounds to my leg..
> ...


Personally I would never trust that dog again.. And I am pretty sure you wouldn't and I am pretty sure you do not want anyone to go through what you have gone through with this dog.. If you agree with what I am saying I am pretty sure you have your own answer.. 

Im real sorry you have had to go through this.,. I have just read your story and went through this with two bitches a weimy and a dobie..( I was badly bitten) I really feel for you.. In the end I rehomed the Dobie I spent nearly a year searching for the perfect home.. 
Still in touch with the guy daily nearly 3 years on..


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Have these dogs been to the vet for a full work up?
Has the vet provided you with an APBC referral and consult?

This has gone beyond advice on a forum and advice from 'behaviourists' or 'breed experts' via e-mail or phone IMO.

Nobody on a forum or otherwise can advise to euthanasia or any other course of action. There have been severly injurious bites seen here.

I have been involved in a very troubling case recently which resulted in euth of the dog involved; when this is a possibility it is not my place to suggest it but present all the pluses and minuses for all possible options.
No such options can be laid out until a medical and behavioural consult and eval by suitably qualified people have taken place however.

I wish you the very best of luck during this very hard time.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

No I would never trust the dog again and I wouldn't want anybody else to go through what we have gone through.. I can't post photos up as I'm using my iPhone but I will asa I can.. The surgeon said he has never seen a dog crush a bone so badlyin his time as a surgeon.. We did not feel that there was provocation to bite however the dog thought the bite was warranted, however we did not see the signs and were totally in shock.. Still so now and I havnt stopped feeling like I failed my dog..


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## hobo99 (Aug 18, 2008)

I am sorry i can not offer any help or advice , just to say i really feel for you what an awfull time you are having .
I know you will do your best for all concerned as you love all your dogs .Please do not feel that you have failed your dog as from what you have said you have done all you can to help him .
Please keep us updated on how you get on . x


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

The dogs home will not take an agressive dog and I have contacted Bully SOS,rescue centres who advise the same..my vet agrees that he should be put to sleep.. The second behaviourist I contacted I have never heard a reply back.This poor dog had no socialisation before I got him and has had angry outburst for no apparant reason since I had him at 8 months old, and the outbursts have been an immediate rage..it's been a tough 2 years.. I think in the best interest of the animal and safety of others that the dog be put to rest. Bless him I love him so dearly.

We were loving owners and it hurts so deeply that our animal wanted to
savage us to death if my partner didn't strangle
him to fee himself.. I can't stop crying I am so heart broken, my beautiful beast will have to be euthanised.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Miss'j said:


> The dogs home will not take an agressive dog and I have contacted Bully SOS,rescue centres who advise the same..my vet agrees that he should be put to sleep.. The second behaviourist I contacted I have never heard a reply back.This poor dog had no socialisation before I got him and has had angry outburst for no apparant reason since I had him at 8 months old, and the outbursts have been an immediate rage..it's been a tough 2 years.. I think in the best interest of the animal and safety of others that the dog be put to rest. Bless him I love him so dearly.
> 
> We were loving owners and it hurts so deeply that our animal wanted to
> savage us to death if my partner didn't strangle
> him to fee himself.. I can't stop crying I am so heart broken, my beautiful beast will have to be euthanised.


You have gone a lot further with this dog than most have.. Some people quite happily dump there dogs, I think you have given your heart to this dog and what ever you decide will be for the best....

How have you coped since you guys have come home.. is he still with you?


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

He is in his kennel safe and garage at night.. I am going to take
him to the vets tomorrow to be put to sleep. We both came out of hospital this Monday.. I would not allow the police to shoot him, I have kept his routine as normal as possible and I will muzzle him whilst I take him to the vet and hold him until he closes his eyes.. I want to be the last person he see's.. He is my beast and no matter what he had done I will always love him.. He didn't have the best start in life and was obvioulsy misunderstood I can only feel sorry for him, crying as I write this .


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Miss'j said:


> He is in his kennel safe and garage at night.. I am going to take
> him to the vets tomorrow to be put to sleep. We both came out of hospital this Monday.. I would not allow the police to shoot him, I have kept his routine as normal as possible and I will muzzle him whilst I take him to the vet and hold him until he closes his eyes.. I want to be the last person he see's.. He is my beast and no matter what he had done I will always love him.. He didn't have the best start in life and was obvioulsy misunderstood I can only feel sorry for him, crying as I write this .


I think you are very brave and with what you have said done what you can for him.. and Im sure it will be the last gesture for him..

My ex had to take his EBT x to be put to sleep a couple of months ago.. He held her through it.. He said it was the last decent thing he could do for her..

Big hugs guys... Be safe.. xxx


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

It's the last respectful thing I can do for my boo, I feel empty.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Miss'j said:


> It's the last respectful thing I can do for my boo, I feel empty.


Maybe empty.. But you will know where he is.. And that he will never fall into the wrong hands.. xxx


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Yes.. Thanks guys.. I need to sleep been crying all night have sore eyes xxxx


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

its such a shame, really sorry for whats hapened to you and to be honest it does seem you are doing the right thing! just shows you how much damage humans can do to dogs through their puppy months...youve tried your best better and further than i could have gone xx


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Really sorry to here your situation, sometimes we all make mistakes and sometimes they are there to teach us things. Well done for doing everything you can and making the tough decision to lay this boy to rest, good luck with the vets tomorrow.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but I would have thought these dogs were fighting over the bitch, not over you. Whatever your vet says, they both need to be neutered and the sooner the better. It will change the way they look at each other though won't cure all their problems.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Just wanted to add my sympathies. What a terrible situation.

The dog is best PTS as he cannot be rehomed and you cannot trust him.

So sorry about what has happened x


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Sorry I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but I would have thought these dogs were fighting over the bitch, not over you. Whatever your vet says, they both need to be neutered and the sooner the better. It will change the way they look at each other though won't cure all their problems.


No way, the dogs weren't neutered?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> No way, the dogs weren't neutered?


Apparently the vet said it didn't always work. Worth a shot, though, eh?

OP I am really sorry that it has come to this but this dog is obviously not happy and probably been abused in the past. He will be in a better place and you have certainly done all you could.

You have to think of your own safety and that of the other dogs and other people you might meet. A dog like this could end up actually killing someone, so don't feel too bad. You certainly gave him a good home.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Apparently the vet said it didn't always work. Worth a shot, though, eh?
> 
> OP I am really sorry that it has come to this but this dog is obviously not happy and probably been abused in the past. He will be in a better place and you have certainly done all you could.
> 
> You have to think of your own safety and that of the other dogs and other people you might meet. A dog like this could end up actually killing someone, so don't feel too bad. You certainly gave him a good home.


Inter male aggression is the most common cause of aggression. with a bitch in the picture and a female owner I can quite see why this would happen.

I'm really not having a go at the OP as this is hard enough for her, but it is an interesting point.

Neutering does not always work, but seeing as testorone is the biggest cause of male aggression, why would the vet not neuter?

I would never have an unneutered dog in my house. (I have 5)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Inter male aggression is the most common cause of aggression. with a bitch in the picture and a female owner I can quite see why this would happen.
> 
> I'm really not having a go at the OP as this is hard enough for her, but it is an interesting point.
> 
> ...


I think it depends very much on the dog, but certainly would not with another dog and a bitch about the place. My two had to be done, not because they were aggressive but because they were extremely randy and so heavy they were likely to hurt someone or another dog.

I do get cross when you hear this sort of advice from a vet.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

I was advised that the bad behaviour had already been learnt so neutering would only give him 20% chance and it really had to be done at 5-7 months. I kept him well away from my other male and girl because he would attack her too and pierce skin. He bit my girls ear a week before this happened whilst they were in the garden together. 

On one occasion both my male and female bully were sat in the boot of my car after along run over the field when Bronson again attacked her for no apparant reason, this had happened on a few occasions this behaviour! The dog is a handful and very hard work.

I never allowed them all in the house at once together they took it in turns as each had a crate.. I have kennels built so they would mainly be in them, and one at a time in the house.. I want to show my dogs and I have been working on their behaviour the past year so why would I have them neutered anyway. I have mixed feelings on neutering as I have been told too many different things and it doesn't always solve the dogs problem. My other male is not aggressive and he is intact.. I feel that the breeder did not tell me the whole truth as to why he wanted to get rid of him.. I don't think he is even 
compatible with my girl and she is now terrified of him because he has bitten her too many times now!

I'm doing my behaviourist course next year and believe hands on experience us the best experience you can get..unless a person has owned bullies all their life. I'm only going to keep bitches for the
next 5 years until I feel I have enough experience to keep a male. I would never ever home a dog again that is anything else but a 8 week old puppy because I feel strongly that this did not help this
situation at all.. I havnt a clue about Bronsons history and he did display behaviour problems as soon as I took him home but because I didn't want the animals head messed up any further I persevered and it's been a tough year..

Bronson is possessive he does not like me showing attention to either my other dogs and he will stare my girl out if she went anywhere near me in the garden so he could come to me instead. My girl would stay well back in his presence.. He has also attacked my girl because my friends son stroked her on the head over the fence..My male was away in the house 
at the time of the incident so I don't believe that it was because if Henri..This dog see's himself as alpha male and wants to rule my household, and his bite is way over the top, he wouldn't have stopped until my partner could have lost his thumb, his hand or worse.. I am going to put him to sleep.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

This isn't to belabour the point, because the damage is done, but more for other people.

But actually keeping the dogs seperate can make things much worse. The tension continues to rise, and unless the underlying problems are resolved they just fester. Then of course when the dogs do meet, it can cause an explosion.

The positive effects of neutering by far outweigh the bad.

Two examples I can give...

My 3rd rescue, (staffy x) was un neutered when I got him. Fights started immediately with my other male (was neutered). Even after neutering it took a good few months, with trips to the vet and hospital. But eventually we were able to work on the BEHAVIOURAL side of it, because the testorone was removed.

The second example I can give is my sisters bull dog. Unneutered until the age of 3 1/2 because of her boyfriends stupid adversity to it! He used to hump, dominate, urine scent mark. Walks were a nightmare. After neutering we were able to work on the BEHAVIOURAL side of it.

Both these dogs were bull breeds.

For anyone else reading this.

NEUTER YOUR DOGS!

OP - this is not directed at you as it is too late. But hopefully others reading this will see what can happen.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Itis unusual for a male dog to attack a female with such intent to injure. A male female may occasionaly have a minor verbal reprimand equivalent to its ine, enough but very rarely will it escalate into a full blown attack or fight unless one or the other is very unstable. I can see why the males would fight as they are both entire will compete for territory and resources and with an entire female also present who is also going to have seasons over the two years that will inflame them even more to a degree its understandable.

It could also be understandable to a degree if the humans had got bitten trying to break up a fight between the warring males on occasion as two fighting dogs have got nothing more on their minds then to fight each other and win and any awareness of anything else just doesnt exist. Many owners have got bitten by their own dogs by accident trying to break up a fight when their own dogs are attacked outside the home.

However if as you say this dog attacks a female and yourselves with no apparent or at the very slightest reason (if there may be one) then he is seriously unstable and unpredictable. If he was just dog aggressive even then he may have a chance with a knowledgeable breed savvy owner in an only dog situation. Who would keep him on a lead and if necessary muzled to prevent dogs running up who might get attacked. He could still have a pretty full good life that way. However given the fact he is human agressive and to the extent it is its doubtful he could be placed safely. You certainly couldnt really take the risk of rehoming him. Maybe Bull terrier rescue might assess him and decide if they could rehabilitate and place him but again you would have to contact and get their advice on the matter and then if he is as bad as you have said its doubtful if they would be able to offer assistance,even though breed rescues tend to give more chances to dogs with behavioural problems than an international rescue such as battersea,RSPCA etc would.

I personally dont altogether agree with your vet. Yes it is probably too late now to get them all neutered as the tension and fights have got so ingrained now it probably wont make a difference at this late stage. Had they been all neutered ans spayed at the beginning when the first signs had appeared to remove the sex related triggers and with careful management you may have been able to get things to an acceptable managed level. Even then the dog would have needed to be throughly assessesd first to find out the degree of instability. You would have then been able to get an idea if his problems were workable or if he was so unstable his present situation would never work even with them all being spayed and neutered.

You can either seek the opionion of Bull Terrier club welfare trust Joan Kenway 01256 861227 Is a number I have listed shes listed for bull terrier and minature bull terrier. But as I said they could well advise to PTS given how bad he is and the unlikely hood of rehabilitation and placement. Or do as you may already have decided.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> I was advised that the bad behaviour had already been learnt so neutering would only give him 20% chance and it really had to be done at 5-7 months.


i'm sorry to say this, but that's the biggest crock of bull i have read in months on end, if not years - 
and i would suggest U change vets, ASAP, *especially* if as U say, U intend to become a breeder!

** neutering is immediately effective in CUTTING testosterone levels -* 
dogs do not "store" testosterone, they make it and circulate it.

** learned behavior takes longer to change - and preventing rehearsals thru management is key.* 
simply desexing does not instantly fix everything, but REHEARSING reactivity, or flooding the dog, is disastrous. 
the owner, the dog-walker, the pet-sitter, the vet who has the dog in for treatment, *All* must be on the same page: 
absolutely no flooding and no rehearsal of reaction or aggro, period.

this vet is IMO full of agricultural-effluent, claiming the dog has a *ONE in FIVE chance* for improvement - 
that is entirely her or his personal-info, and where it came from, i have no idea. 
there ARE actual, real, live studies that have been done, researching aggro and males pre- and post-desex. 
*neutering reduces aggro across the board: RG, territoriality, M to M posturing, personal-space, 
handling issues, etc.* why Ur vet said that? i have no clue - ask her or him.

appalled, 
- terry


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## topseyturvey (Feb 1, 2010)

What a tragic set of circumstances.

This dog does not deserve to loose his life because his inexperienced owner can't help him,why hasn't this dog been rehomed to someone with B/T experience who knows the breed inside out ?

It's an easy option to pts in my opinion,this dog can be helped by those with the relavant experience,B/T Rescue may even have been able to help.

Personally I'm disgusted and feel this dog has been badly let down by it's owner!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

topseyturvey said:


> What a tragic set of circumstances.
> 
> This dog does not deserve to loose his life because his inexperienced owner can't help him,why hasn't this dog been rehomed to someone with B/T experience who knows the breed inside out ?
> 
> ...


I think that is a bit harsh. The owner has tried her best with the dog over two years and has sought the help of experts, one which appears to be her vet who obviously has no clue what he is talking about. The very first thing to do would have been to neuter him. What is the man talking about? It has to be done between 5 and 7 months. I like my dogs to be full grown before they are neutered personally, but it is never too late.

since the dog seems to have put the OP and her partner in hospital with no apparent warning, I cannot say that I for one would blame their decision to have him euthanised. It is hard on everyone, but it is her decision and she really doesn't need someone telling her she could have done better.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

topseyturvey said:


> What a tragic set of circumstances.
> 
> This dog does not deserve to loose his life because his inexperienced owner can't help him,why hasn't this dog been rehomed to someone with B/T experience who knows the breed inside out ?
> 
> ...


I think you aren't being very fair your self with your words.. This owner has seeked advice from professionals.. And in the end the dog was in an unprovoked situ when it attacked the OP and her partner.. The OP is very very upset about the whole situation and really doesn't need people commenting with words like this to cause more upset.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

topseyturvey said:


> What a tragic set of circumstances.
> 
> This dog does not deserve to loose his life because his inexperienced owner can't help him,why hasn't this dog been rehomed to someone with B/T experience who knows the breed inside out ?
> 
> ...


that is very harsh and the OP doesn't deserve being spoken to like that. 

I think it's the right decision to PTS in this case as this dog attacked his owner, unprovoked. this dog can't be trusted.


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## topseyturvey (Feb 1, 2010)

Maybe I am been harsh,however I do have bull breed experience and live in the real world,had the correct advice etc been sought immediatly then something could have been achieved,instead of posting for advice on a pet forum,where all too frequently,poor dangerous advice is posted.

The dog was merely a pup when this started and has had from reading inbetween the lines,no routine,no boundries set and from the sound of it hasn't bonded with the owner,why has this behaviour been allowed to esculate ?
The owner was bitten breaking a fight,not attacked,bit of a difference again shows the owner is clearly out of there depth,if I read the post correctly.
I had to break two fighting bitches with my partner neither of us got bitten.
This dog could have been rehomed to a good home with bull breed experience not pts.


And I stand by what I said!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> that is very harsh and the OP doesn't deserve being spoken to like that.
> 
> I think it's the right decision to PTS in this case as this dog attacked his owner, unprovoked. this dog can't be trusted.


Totally agree.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

topseyturvey said:


> Maybe I am been harsh,however I do have bull breed experience and live in the real world,had the correct advice etc been sought immediatly then something could have been achieved,instead of posting for advice on a pet forum,where all too frequently,poor dangerous advice is posted.
> 
> The dog was merely a pup when this started and has had from reading inbetween the lines,no routine,no boundries set and from the sound of it hasn't bonded with the owner,why has this behaviour been allowed to esculate ?
> The owner was bitten breaking a fight,not attacked,bit of a difference again shows the owner is clearly out of there depth,if I read the post correctly.
> ...


er no, the owner was bitten for getting up off the sofa


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

topseyturvey said:


> Maybe I am been harsh,however I do have bull breed experience and live in the real world,had the correct advice etc been sought immediatly then something could have been achieved,instead of posting for advice on a pet forum,where all too frequently,poor dangerous advice is posted.
> 
> The dog was merely a pup when this started and has had from reading inbetween the lines,no routine,no boundries set and from the sound of it hasn't bonded with the owner,why has this behaviour been allowed to esculate ?
> The owner was bitten breaking a fight,not attacked,bit of a difference again shows the owner is clearly out of there depth,if I read the post correctly.
> ...


Mmm, I think u need 2 go and read the whole post b4 commenting further

This breed is very strong, dog on dog aggression yes u can probably work on, but i'm afraid an unprovoked attack on humans, with no warning, then different ball game altogether, Op was lucky they didn't sustian more injuries, 2 me the dog sounds unstable, and no matter how much experience u have, with a large breed showing upprovoked aggression, what choice do u have, I would say this dog borders on a red zone dog, and no rescue have the time, facilities or funds 2 try and turn things round, no guarantees, in this instance, and where would they b able to re home him, they wouldn't take the risk knowing his past, the safest 4 all concerned would be PTS, sad but reality


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

topseyturvey said:


> Maybe I am been harsh,however I do have bull breed experience and live in the real world,had the correct advice etc been sought immediatly then something could have been achieved,instead of posting for advice on a pet forum,where all too frequently,poor dangerous advice is posted.
> 
> The dog was merely a pup when this started and has had from reading inbetween the lines,no routine,no boundries set and from the sound of it hasn't bonded with the owner,why has this behaviour been allowed to esculate ?
> The owner was bitten breaking a fight,not attacked,bit of a difference again shows the owner is clearly out of there depth,if I read the post correctly.
> ...


The OP got outside *help*, so its not like she did nothing to stop this.... The Op was bitten for gettin up off the sofa.. By what seems to have been a bit of a time bomb.. Who knows what happened to him before the OP took him on..

I dont think you can save all dogs.. And a lot of us have experience with bull breeds and bigger breeds.. The OP was not trying to split two dogs up form fighting either....


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

topseyturvey said:


> Maybe I am been harsh,however I do have bull breed experience and live in the real world,had the correct advice etc been sought immediatly then something could have been achieved,instead of posting for advice on a pet forum,where all too frequently,poor dangerous advice is posted.
> 
> Do you really? i thought you had a labxpoodle, sorry about that i must have read your intro wrong. well after two years of seeking help and advice how was the OP supposed to know if she was receiving the correct advice usually when someone asks for advice its because they don't know about something (not from a forum)
> 
> ...


Your choice


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## topseyturvey (Feb 1, 2010)

I stand corrected 
Sorry was pushed for time when I wrote my post and obviously hadn't read properly.

I still stand my some of my coments though,no boundries,no routine,no outside help before the problems started to esculate,Op wouldn't rehome the dog because she loved it (don't we all love our dogs)sometimes we take the decisions we do because we love our dogs,if that means rehoming and getting the problem resolved then so be it.

Dogs do not attack without warning,
My friend recently had to rehome a young pup because of her older bitch who is aggressive with other dogs,they tried for 5 long months to resolve the situation but rehoming was the only option.It was difficult and painful but the correct thing to do for all the dogs concerned and the owners put all the dogs safety and welfare first!

I still feel this dog has been let down big time and it's cost him it's life!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

If you have a dog which is aggressive to other dogs, why would you get a puppy? I really don't understand.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Guys I have taken on board all opinions and I do feel that I failed my dog. We did try our best to show the dog leadership, we socialised him as soon as we took him home with other dogs but looking back the dog showed behavioural problems and when we contacted the breeder regarding our concerns we were told that this was the puppy in him, and this was the traits of the breed. Therefore we weren't concerned until he started attacking my other male. The pet behaviourist who I paid £200 for a consultation told me to give Bronson first of everything, he had to earn his food, affection etc.. I followed her advise and this made Bronson feel he was higher than us. I walked him for an hour a day, bought him a dog jogger to take the energy out of him in order to train him also. When he nipped I told him No, I had signs like sign language I taught him to show him what I meant and he understood what no meant etc..

Bronson bit my partner and I because my partner kissed me on the forhead whilst I was sat on the settee next to him, I 
don't believe that was warranted and now we can no longer trust him..

Bully SOS behaviourist did not get back to me and I left him an essay via email of my situation.. I have contacted dogs homes, bully rescues and Mrs Kenway who advised me that she is unable to take him in.. I believe I have exhausted all avenues.. 

I have not let the dog get away with what he wants I am a firm leader and I correct him when iv saw fit. Bronson behaviour has got worse and I was trying to find a home for him before he bit this last time.. However bully rescue advised me that it sounded like a problem with the pecking order and to seek a behaviourist of which I did but like I said they still havnt contacted me to this day.

I contacted a women recommended to me who is an experienced bully owner and she has advised that putting Bronson to sleep is my only option as does the breeder I bought him from.

Bronson is capable of killing a fully grown man and without a doubt a child or animal and I do not want that on my conscience.. 

When I got him at 8 months old he was already strong willed with a mind of his own, if I would have known what I know now and been given the correct advise I would have done better but I did what I was advised and did what I thought best at the time.

Bronson has been euthanised. I cuddled him until the end and I now have to live with this on my conscience.

R.I.P mummy's beast


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Miss'j said:


> Guys I have taken on board all opinions and I do feel that I failed my dog. However the breeder should not have sold him to inexperienced people knowing that this dog would grow up to be a loaded gun.. We did try our best to show the dog leadership, we socialised him as soon as we took him home with other dogs but looking back the dog showed behavioural problems and when we contacted the breeder regarding our concerns we were told that this was the puppy in him, and this was the traits of the breed. Therefore we weren't concerned until he started attacking my other male. The pet behaviourist who I paid £200 for a consultation told me to give Bronson first of everything, he had to earn his food, affection etc.. I followed her advise and this made Bronson feel he was higher than us. I walked him for an hour a day, bought him a dog jogger to take the energy out of him in order to train him also. When he nipped I told him No, I had signs like sign language I taught him to show him what I meant and he understood what no meant etc..
> 
> Bronson bit my partner and I because my partner kissed me on the forhead whilst I was sat on the settee next to him, I don't believe that was warranted and now we can no longer trust him..
> 
> ...


Awe hon, I think u did everything u oculd 4 Bronson and shouldn't feel guilty, u did what was best all round and nobody should knock u 4 that. xx


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Miss'j said:


> Guys I have taken on board all opinions and I do feel that I failed my dog. However the breeder should not have sold him to inexperienced people knowing that this dog would grow up to be a loaded gun.. We did try our best to show the dog leadership, we socialised him as soon as we took him home with other dogs but looking back the dog showed behavioural problems and when we contacted the breeder regarding our concerns we were told that this was the puppy in him, and this was the traits of the breed. Therefore we weren't concerned until he started attacking my other male. The pet behaviourist who I paid £200 for a consultation told me to give Bronson first of everything, he had to earn his food, affection etc.. I followed her advise and this made Bronson feel he was higher than us. I walked him for an hour a day, bought him a dog jogger to take the energy out of him in order to train him also. When he nipped I told him No, I had signs like sign language I taught him to show him what I meant and he understood what no meant etc..
> 
> Bronson bit my partner and I because my partner kissed me on the forhead whilst I was sat on the settee next to him, I don't believe that was warranted and now we can no longer trust him..
> 
> ...


I am so sorry for your loss but I have to say that, from what you say, you did not fail him. If anyone failed him it was the breeder who let you have him in the first place. I expect he couldn't cope so thought he would offload him on to you. You have spent a lot of time, effort and money in trying to get this dog to be part of your family; I don't think you have anything with which to reproach yourself. He put you and your partner in hospital - what would he have done to a child? Doesn't bear thinking about.

I am appalled though, that some "behaviourist" charged all that money to not sort him out or give any valuable opinion. The trouble with some of these quick trained, unqualified people who call themselves behaviourists is that they think all dogs are the same and will all react the same way to the same treatment. They won't.

You have done your best, for yourselves, your other dogs, and for this one. Do not feel guilty, no matter what anyone says. Who really knows the situation better than you?

Take care.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> If you have a dog which is aggressive to other dogs, why would you get a puppy? I really don't understand.


I don't understand where you are coming from here, who's got a puppy? Bronson was 8 months old when I bought him and he was dominant and it turnt into dominant and aggression.. He had unpredictable outbursts of rage.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

topseyturvey said:


> I stand corrected
> Sorry was pushed for time when I wrote my post and obviously hadn't read properly.
> 
> I still stand my some of my coments though,no boundries,no routine,no outside help before the problems started to esculate,Op wouldn't rehome the dog because she loved it (don't we all love our dogs)sometimes we take the decisions we do because we love our dogs,if that means rehoming and getting the problem resolved then so be it.
> ...


Bronson had routine, he was fed twice a day, walked once a day, slept in his crate. All three of my dogs have been treated the same and the other two do not have behaviour problems..I can't understand it.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Miss'j said:


> I don't understand where you are coming from here, who's got a puppy? Bronson was 8 months old when I bought him and he was dominant and it turnt into dominant and aggression.. He had unpredictable outbursts of rage.


Sorry, that was not aimed at you, it was aimed at TopsyTurvey who said she had a friend whose bitch was dog aggressive so they got a puppy. I should have quoted, but forgot.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Miss'j said:


> Bronson had routine, he was fed twice a day, walked once a day, slept in his crate. All three of my dogs have been treated the same and the other two do not have behaviour problems..I can't understand it.


Please don't feel you have to defend yourself; I think most of know what you have been through, but you are always going to get the odd one.:frown:


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I am really sorry it has come to this..but i do feel after reading all you posts that you and your OH have tried all you could with him...you have not failed him one little bit...
really sorryxx


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I am so sorry for your loss but I have to say that, from what you say, you did not fail him. If anyone failed him it was the breeder who let you have him in the first place. I expect he couldn't cope so thought he would offload him on to you. You have spent a lot of time, effort and money in trying to get this dog to be part of your family; I don't think you have anything with which to reproach yourself. He put you and your partner in hospital - what would he have done to a child? Doesn't bear thinking about.
> 
> I am appalled though, that some "behaviourist" charged all that money to not sort him out or give any valuable opinion. The trouble with some of these quick trained, unqualified people who call themselves behaviourists is that they think all dogs are the same and will all react the same way to the same treatment. They won't.
> 
> ...


I did what I thought was best for him except save his life something I now have to live with and I will never make the same mistakes again. Bronson is out of his misery now bless him..If I had the money and help I would have done more but I didn't and everybody I have contacted advised that euthanization was my only option therefore I followed their advise as I am not experienced and I couldn't live with myself if Bronson killed a human being..I have lost the beast that meant the world to me and an animal has lost his life so I don't feel good about that at all and will never get over it.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Sorry, that was not aimed at you, it was aimed at TopsyTurvey who said she had a friend whose bitch was dog aggressive so they got a puppy. I should have quoted, but forgot.


ok no worries.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

I will post up both our injuries as soon as I can get to a computor or can I download them straight from my iPhone, warning they are not for the faint hearted.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> I am really sorry it has come to this..but i do feel after reading all you posts that you and your OH have tried all you could with him...you have not failed him one little bit...
> really sorryxx


Thanks Julie, me too poor Bronson..


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

It's one of the toughest decisions you will ever have had to make Miss'J. I sent you a private message as I've been through a similar experience with my last dog  I think about him daily. Take care... Rest in Peace Bronson x


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> Thanks Julie, me too poor Bronson..


hope you and your OH's injuries heal quickly..xx

RIP Bronson..xxx

juliex


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Sorry for your loss. Very brave decision and very difficult. x


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## SophieCyde (Oct 24, 2010)

so sorry for your loss 

You tried a hell of a lot more than most people would of with him , and you sohuld be proud you gave him a home when no-one else wanted him.

Don't beat yourself up about it , its not your fault


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I think that this should be left now. Regardless of anything else this has not been an easy time for the OP or her family (human and canine) (i am presuming you are a she!?).

If posters don't have constructive commentary perhaps targeting the OP is a little kicking when they're down? IMO 
There will always be couldas-shouldas-wouldas in these scenarios and that is something the OP is living with - not us. Nobody can say what would have happened.
Let's all learn from this terrible incident.

My original advice still stands, especially in light of such damaging occurences, that the dogs be medically checked and behaviourally evaluated and please choose qualified professionals to do this.
OP I hope that you and your family recover from this trauma and that we here can support you through that.
If you would like any help please let me know.

Rest easy fella


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I am so very very sorry. You did the only thing you could under the circumstances. No one well ever know fully his story before he came to you.
You take care and try to look forward now.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Hey hun.. You made the best decision out of some crappy ones...

He is at peace now. 

And I truly do feel you did everything you could for this guy... Please don't beat yourself up about it... You at least tried I know many of people who wouldn't of even done that.. xxxx


RIP Beasty Bronson.....


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## hobo99 (Aug 18, 2008)

Miss'j , please ignore body who is saying anything nasty to you , you did the only thing left for you to do .You didnt let your Bronson down as you tried all you could to help him .
You must be having one of the worse days ever and my heart goes out to you , i can only imagine what you must be going through . ((Hugs)) x

Rest in Peace Bronson .x


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

My boy is at rest xx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i am so sorry to hear this, and hope that both U and Ur partner heal quickly, and that he has full-function of his hand. 
as for the death of Ur dog, i cannot imagine how devastated U must be - but he could not have been truly happy, 
feeling so stressed and somehow defensive. whatever his worries, he is at peace now.

i only want to add that keeping intact-dogs is a challenge, and perhaps that dream of breeding might better be, 
U keep a potential dam, screen her for any heritable problems, WAIT till she is 24-MO, get hip + knee X-rays, 
have her eyes screened by a k9 opthalmologist, and so on - test everything. 
while waiting, get her socialized, have her pass her KC Bronze, and so on - show her in the breed ring, have others 
look at her with eyes that are not soft-focused by love, but who see the dog - her structure, gait, temp... 
and she can if she passes those tests and the breed-savvy gaze of another person, become the mother of great dogs. 
U don't have to OWN or *keep* an intact-M to breed great dogs.

raising pups means providing them with learning and growing opportunities, early-neural-stim is great, 
socializing the litter from 5-WO to 8-WO, finding terrific homes... U can make a difference, there. 
but there is a lot to learn - and this was the hardest and most painful lesson of all. 
R.I.P, Bronson - no more worries, boy.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i am so sorry to hear this, and hope that both U and Ur partner heal quickly, and that he has full-function of his hand.
> as for the death of Ur dog, i cannot imagine how devastated U must be - but he could not have been truly happy,
> feeling so stressed and somehow defensive. whatever his worries, he is at peace now.
> 
> ...


leashedforlife that is quite a lovely post


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

thank You kindly, PJ  we all know that some breeds are prone to M-to-M aggro, including bully-breeds, Tibetan Mastiffs, 
Bullmastiffs, Akitas [same-sex aggro occurs in both genders], Black Russian Terriers, Bouvier, and others.

with A-I allowing foreign studs with shipped semen, and other breeders who already have quality males, 
an in-house stud is really unnecessary, and tensions around intact-Fs with multiple intact-Ms are always risky.

*just please bear in mind - * don't breed to the Crufts winner, everybody and their brother will do that; 
50% of any breed is MALE, find a good stud 
* whose sterling points compensate for any flaws in the Female 
* who has not sired more than 2 or 3 litters at most, 
* who is at least 24-MO, 
* who has passed all the same screening exams for the breed; 
* *who Is Not Male-dog reactive or M-dog aggressive - * i would not perpetuate the temperament 
that caused this heartache and killed a young dog, i'd suggest any breeder choose a stud who is tolerant 
with most other males, and social with some, who can play with other males.

there are on-line lists of heritable conditions found in a given breed, supplied by DVM Dodds on multiple websites. 
Google *heritable diseases in purebred dogs* - the article will come up in the top-5.

all my best, 
- terry


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

Thank you for your kind words. I still have mixed emotions with regards to did I or did I not do the right thing when euthanizing Bronson and I have to live with this, maybe one day I will be able to forgive myself..

I was inexperienced and if I knew what I know now I would have certainly done it all differently. Bronson already had a strong personality when I took him home at 8 months old and he was without a doubt a very difficult animal who was misunderstood but very much loved. I do believe that much of the groundwork should have already been done before I took him on at 8 months and this was something the dog was not fortunate to have recieved as a
young puppy..

Since his death I have been trying to educate myself on dominance, aggression in dogs and how to become a pack leader. I have learnt alot here and I do not want to waste this valuble lesson but to take this further now and start my dog behaviourist course and try to make some sence of this all. I hope I can help this breed in the future if and when I qualify and I believe I will as I feel very passionate about this subject, have done since I realised Bronson's behavioural issues. I

have found a valuable website packed with information at Leerburg's Dog Training DVDs and Free Dog Training ebooks

This tragic situation has made me more determined to bring something positive out of this in memory of my beautiful beast who is now at rest from harm or doing wrong.

Looking back to the first day I brought Bronson home I now realise that the dominance signs were there, however I cannot make sence of his behaviour before his attacks which was him appearing to be very quite, not reactive, in a daze or trance.. He would then display sudden outbursts of rage and would appear in full fight mode, his jaw would be trembling until he had
calmed down. This I do not understand and this I want to research more, I think his problems were a mixture of dominance that turnt into agression and I wouldn't rule out a chemical imbalance of the brain. I have always known bull terriers to be 
docile and my dog did not appear normal.

I'm not giving up now this is the career I want to pursue.

Love my Boy


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Im glad that you are now trying to look forward. I think that this would be a wonderful and fitting tribute to your boys memory. Not only would it be a career a very worthwhile one. There are lots of dogs in rescues being bypassed because they have behavioural problems and no training. With qualifications you could maybe help some of these too. Keep us informed how your doing. Best wishes for the future.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Have just caught up on this and read the whole thread.

You have no concience to answer to, you did your very best for Bronson in every respect. A dog with that kind of aggression towards people could never be trusted and you have done the correct thing in having him PTS. 

I am a dog lover through and through but you have to draw the line between emotion and sense. You have done the sensible thing and you didn't do it before trying everything in your power. Quite honestly after an attack like that i'd have made your decision the next day - there is no way I would blame myself either! 

Rsest peaceflly Broson, your troubled life is now in the past and your new care free life at the bridge is about to begin. xxx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> I have found a valuable website packed with information at Leerburg's Dog Training DVDs and Free Dog Training ebooks


oh, dear!... with all of the dog-websites in the world to choose from, why that one?  
*ed frawley* only recently 'discovered' clicker-training for young pups, but for decades before that, 
he was a byword for harsh handling and severe aversives; even among bite-sports trainers 
and k9-cops, [both of which groups have well-founded reps for using the punitive approach], 
Leerburg was spoken-of as harsh.

now he starts pups with pos-R, but is still firmly of the opinion that U GOTTA PUNISH TO PROOF - 
which in the opinion of pos-R trainers *who also train in bite-sports,* is not true; U don't have to teach 
the 'wrong' answer to teach the right one, teaching the right-answer is sufficient.

don't take my word for it - on his site, there was a detailed description of the use of a collar to punish a 'dominant' dog, 
by hanging him - it was there just about 6 or 8-weeks ago, i'm sure it still is - let me know if U cannot find it. 
it's 1:30-am... gotta get some sleep, it was a long day. 
pleasant dreams, 
- terry


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

I have read and bookmarked various websites, Ed Fawley has a very successful business, however as I'm inexperienced I cannot be certain if he is wrong or right. 

I became interested in dog behaviour as soon as I realised Bronson had behavioural issues and I'm even more determined now, I enjoy and find my animals very rewarding. I plan on doing everything different and want to learn from my own experience with professional guidance.

Our injuries are healing, my partner is having physio regular but will not be able to work for months yet so money is going to be very tight. When I get access to a computor I will post them up.

Missing my boy everyday and waiting for his ashes to arrive so he can be near us at Christmas. Bronson mummy's beast.

Thanking all of you for your support, kindness and valuble information. I will continue to be positive.. Next year I'm taking Charlie my girl to shows and will keep you posted on her progress.

Wishing you all a Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year x


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> oh, dear!... with all of the dog-websites in the world to choose from, why that one?
> *ed frawley* only recently 'discovered' clicker-training for young pups, but for decades before that,
> he was a byword for harsh handling and severe aversives; even among bite-sports trainers
> and k9-cops, [both of which groups have well-founded reps for using the punitive approach],
> ...


I take on board what you are saying and I shall take a look.. However a dog such as Bronson needed a very firm approah as he was savageley agressive, he may have still been here today if such methods were used. He was a strong adult dog aged 2 years 9 months, 6 stone pure muscle with a 19 inch neck, strong methods were needed here to teach him correction. However I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this method but then I'd rather that than resulting to putting 
him to sleep, it may have hurt him for a short time but he'd still have his life. Ed Fawleys methods as I have read do work and he does not believe in euthanization but us humans are to blame for misunderstanding our dogs.

Do you recommend any sites? I think English Bull Terrier specialists would have been best in my situation.. Through this tradgedy I have a new contact who has experience with this breed and they recommended that euthanization was the only choice as did the breeder, rescue centre and dogs home.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Miss'j said:


> I take on board what you are saying and I shall take a look.. However a dog such as Bronson needed a very firm approah as he was savageley agressive, he may have still been here today if such methods were used. He was a strong adult dog aged 2 years 9 months, 6 stone pure muscle with a 19 inch neck, strong methods were needed here to teach him correction. However I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this method but then I'd rather that than resulting to putting
> him to sleep, it may have hurt him for a short time but he'd still have his life. Ed Fawleys methods as I have read do work and he does not believe in euthanization but us humans are to blame for misunderstanding our dogs.
> 
> Do you recommend any sites? I think English Bull Terrier specialists would have been best in my situation.. Through this tradgedy I have a new contact who has experience with this breed and they recommended that euthanization was the only choice as did the breeder, rescue centre and dogs home.


This is no criticism of you, as you say you are inexperienced, but please, please follow Terry's (leashedforlife) advice. She is a positive reinforcement trainer of 30 years experience. I have never heard of this Ed Fawley bloke, but it is the accepted way to go nowadays not to use aversives of any kind. I doubt these methods would have improved Bronson's behaviour in the long term, only made it worse.

Read some books by Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson and have a look at the COAPE site. Also have a look at this site: Becoming a Member | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

This is also a good place to start: Academy of Dog Training and Behaviour and quite cheap compared to the rest of them.

Nobody who knows anything is going with the pack leader theory any more; it is outdated and has been proved over and again to be flawed.

Watch some episodes of Its Me or the Dog. This lady has the right idea, though try to watch the US ones now showing on Sky 1 as some of the others are very old and theories have changed.

I wish you luck.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Ok Miss'j I feel for you I really do and I know there is no use saying any of this in relation to the late Bronson but I am going to say it for your current and future dogs and anyone else tuning in.

Aggression, as in real injurious behaviour is grounded in physiological processes. Therefore, veterinary medical tests must be carried out in order to ascertain teh extent of physiological involvement.
For example the two most likely physical contributors are genetics and diet. But even genetic behaviour can be modified.

Aggression, in this context, can also be modified. And in this context aggression should be considered as a manifestation of fear. The same neurochemicals are involved, the same behavioural manifestations, albeit escalated, and the same motivations.

Vets are not qualified to assign behaviour modification programs and behaviourists are not qualified to give medical advice so the two are necessary to help when such issues arise.
Veterinary consultation doesn't necessarily lead to medication of the animal for behavioural issues. This is very very very very rare. More commonly a physical issue is found and that is treated by the vet and the b. mod program is put in place by the behaviourist.

There is soooooo much misunderstanding about dog aggression adding to the sensationalised attitude within society.

Dogs who are fearful and/or aggressive DO NOT require a firm hand. Ed Fawley does have a successful business but he is a harsh trainer. In fact in the last couple of years he has openly retracted his previous aggressive opinon on dog-friendly dog training. Now although he has accepted the clicker and some of its methodology, he still continues to shock, choke and prong dogs. So a full conversion has not occured yet  
This type of training uses a basis in flawed ideas about dog behaviour and as such an adversarial attitude to dogs is made easier.

This to me and many other enlightened trainers is not acceptable. In my own business I have seen over 1000 dogs and their people in the last four years (one 2 one sessions not classes). Before that I have worked in other doggie businesses and that would bring my total number of behaviour modification clients closer to two thousand. I also have formal education in relation to the study of animal behaviour. 

My current dog would have been categorised as 'savagely aggressive' when I got him six years ago. He is 50kg and bit me three/four times before we left the pound. He was the worst non-generalised resource guarder I have ever seen. I have never been 'firm' with him, I have barely even raised my voice to him. It took two years of intensive work to get him to a point that we could plateau and continue to work on issues with reduced risk of biting and aggressing. He is bomb proof with people and zero human resource guarding now. Would I recommend that others persevere like this, no and I will probably never be able for it again as it took over my life.
But he, like the other two thousand dogs I have worked with are a testament to the fact that these dogs do not need a firm hand and all the euphemistic consequences that suggests. 

I am not talking about being permissive or being a softie. But proper behaviour modification requires skill, understanding and knowledge.

Any dog that shows the merest signs associated with fear or aggression must be vet checked for bloods, urine etc. to get a picture of internal processes. 

I don't doubt that rescue and breed experts can be of help but where physiological and behavioural disorders are present people qualified in these fields must be brought in ie. vet and qualified clinical behaviourist. 
I may have had a liver all my life but as soon as I have trouble with it I consult qualified experts  

The process may be long and may only have limited success but that is the reality. But the vast majority of cases are successful as in reaching the client's goals. I genuninely feel that you didn't have a choice in what happened to Bronson at the end but as I said previously we can all learn from this.

I agree that getting one's dogs into a good routine with manners training and acceptable behavioural outlets but this doesn't need to be harsh or firm or involve any aversives at all.

Please take the passion  in this post as concern for dogs out there that are labelled aggressive and not as anything else in relation to Bronson.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> This is no criticism of you, as you say you are inexperienced, but please, please follow Terry's (leashedforlife) advice. She is a positive reinforcement trainer of 30 years experience. I have never heard of this Ed Fawley bloke, but it is the accepted way to go nowadays not to use aversives of any kind. I doubt these methods would have improved Bronson's behaviour in the long term, only made it worse.
> 
> Read some books by Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson and have a look at the COAPE site. Also have a look at this site: Becoming a Member | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
> 
> ...


I honestly would take terrys, leashed for lifes advice on board and explore the great links from newfiesmum. Its not that many years ago there was an enquiry into Essex Police dog units training methods using adversive techniques like the ones mentioned. In fact for awhile i think im right in saying places like the RSPCA even stopped rehoming their dogs to the police for training as police dogs when their methods came to light until it was resolved.

A few years ago I had to get a behaviourist to help with one of my dogs and she had been doing training and behaviour for nigh on as long as terry and used the same reward based methods and had the same accreditation. She told me that when she started out the heavy handed punishment techniques were taught as the norm and thats what made her seek other methods and ways like reward based training as she thought there has to be another way than this. She was a wonderful person and really knew her stuff helped me no end.


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

I have read all of the above, thanks guys, sound advise I will take a look at the suggested site and get back to you as soon as I can.. If only I knew all this before this problem became so serious my boy would still be alive now huge regrets on my part.. 

I only hope I will get over this and do some good in the future.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Miss'j said:


> I have read all of the above, thanks guys, sound advise I will take a look at the suggested site and get back to you as soon as I can.. If only I knew all this before this problem became so serious my boy would still be alive now huge regrets on my part..
> 
> I only hope I will get over this and do some good in the future.


I have read this whole thread but not contributed as I do not have the knowledge and experience of others on here...but I do feel that I can say I absolutely do believe that you will do some good in the future  x


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...a dog such as Bronson *needed a very firm approach* as he was savagely aggressive, he may have still
> been here today if such methods were used. He was a strong adult dog, 2-Y and 9-MO, 6 stone pure muscle with a 19 inch neck, *strong methods were needed* here to teach him correction.
> ...


this is a false proposition, MJ - it is not a choice between *'firm' AKA harsh handling* on one hand, and *dead dog* 
on the other; as *tripod already pointed out, *over 85% of aggression stems from fear - * it may not look so, 
but fear and defensive behavior are almost-invariably at the root of aggro.

for a single example, a leashed-dog who hackles at seeing a distant dog, then lunges + barks ferociously when 
the other dog gets within 20-ft, is telling that dog to _"go away!"_, and fears the other dog... but of course, 
as both are on leashes, can the other dog comply with this request? No - in fact, the handler of the lunging dog 
*corrects* that dog sharply with a jerk on the prong-collar, and drags her/him past the other dog and handler 
with a muttered apology, then rants at the dog in an angry low-pitched voice for the next two minutes... 
at which point, another dog turns onto the path from a cross-street 50-feet away, and what happens? *it repeats - * 
the dog hackles on sight of the other dog, they and their handler get closer, the dog lunges and barks, the handler jerks...

this is not improving the situation; if anything it sensitizes the already-defensive dog, as another dog appearing 
* now predicts "i will be punished".* the reactive dog has been taught that another dog = bad-things coming.

if instead, we begin B-Mod with the reactive dog, *the first rule is that this dog Must Be under threshold, aware-of but not 
reacting-to their trigger.* this entails awareness by the handler, who needs to find walks where there are long 
fields of view, so that when another dog appears, there's room to maneuver or simply get the reactive-dog OUT OF THERE 
with an emergency-U-turn before the other dog is close-enuf to feel threatening, and provoke a reaction. 
*the 2nd rule is to associate the mere presence of another dog with Good Things - * which for speed of delivery, 
and speed of replication, will be food to begin with: any time another dog appears, we whip-out our trusty treats, 
which are small but of exquisite quality, and start feeding: literally every 1 to 3-seconds, as fast as the dog swallows, 
another treat is under their nose... * the other dog is out of sight and sound? SNAP - the treat-bar closes,* 
and we move on. *it does not matter what the reactive-dog is doing, s/he can hackle, growl, whatever - 
it's immaterial, the presence of the Other Dog = rewards, so long as the reactive dog is willing to eat, a sign 
that their stress is controllable, treats are on offer; if the reactive dog is too close, or the other dog barks, etc, 
we back-off for more space, or we cut the session short and try again later.*
what does the reactive-dog learn from this? *Other Dogs = Good Things.*

the quintessential intent of B-Mod is to *change emotional responses,* and that new emotion, changes behavior.

the dog no longer feels a tightening leash, as the handler grows tense and their breathing stops; instead, the leash 
is deliberately loose, the prong-collar is discarded for a limited-slip all-fabric martingale or a front-clip harness, 
the handler is specifically **told to consciously pause for a deep breath, to soften their eyes and smile 
when they see another dog, even to remark on it happily** - "oh, look! there's Benji with that nice man..." 
meanwhile treats flow uninterruptedly and the dog puts their immediate attention on swallowing them, but the 
*association* of Other-Dog and Good-Things is being forged. 
over time, distances are shortened, broadside-on and arcing approaches are less important, more frontal approach 
becomes possible, reactivity lessens more + more, until it's easy to pass by another dog face-to-face on the bike-path 
with only the handlers between the 2 dogs, and the formerly-reactive dog is mouth open, soft-faced + wagging - 
*the dog is relaxed, no longer feels threatened, and is not defensive.*

i have worked with dogs who had bite-histories, and So Far neither myself nor anyone else has been bitten during 
[or after] B-Mod, and i have *yet* to use any of the things punitive or aversive trainers, or *"balanced"* trainers, 
seem to think are imperative; nobody yells, jerks, rolls, pins, shoves, confronts, overpowers, manhandles, 
floods, terrorizes, intimidates, threatens or otherwise physically or emotionally or mentally causes fear or pain. 
period - it's not up for discussion; training by definition *is not an emergency,* it is planned, has goals, 
has rules - *life happens; training is directed - With A Script*, just like a play.

OTOH - the "very firm approach"
using harsh-methods on a dog who has *already proven* that they are willing to use their teeth to defend themselves, 
generally only intensifies the dog's belief that their life is at risk, and they become more desperate in their self-protective 
aggro displays, which in turn intensifies the handler's punishing; this destructive spiral continues like an arms-race, 
with both sides escalating their intensity and using more powerful weapons, 
until one of 2 things happens: the dog gives-up, 
or the owner gives-up. in the meanwhile, multiple bites may be inflicted on the handler by the highly-aroused dog, or other dogs 
and people are bitten, while the reactive or aggro dog is repeatedly punished by a prong-collar or choke-chain or shock-collar 
or jerks on a buckle-collar or repeated rolls are done, where the dog is forced to the ground and held there by sheer 
physical strength while they struggle, until either somebody is badly hurt physically, or the dog is so emotionally + physically 
battered, they quit resisting. [if U cannot tell, this is a miserable process for everyone, including spectators.]

*but if that happens - if the dog says, "OK, i give-up; i won't hackle or growl or bark or lunge... i quit, U win." - 
what do we have?* is the dog relaxed in the presence of other dogs? No. happy to see them? No. 
what does learned helplessness look like? 
* the dog appears shut-down - they are not interactive and engaged, but withdrawn 
* they don't look at their former-trigger or approach it - the dog, the diesel-truck, the bicyclist... 
they look away, walk away if possible, turn their heads, sit or lie-down, tails and ears drop in its presence. 
* body-language is stressed and withdrawn: mouth is closed vs open with hanging tongue, face is tight + brow wrinkled, 
vs face soft and brow smooth; gait is slowed or reach of stride is shortened, vs loose body and free stride; tail + ears are down, 
pupils are enlarged, the dog may drool anxiously which means more lip-licking and nervous swallows, they may stamp 
sweaty paw-marks on the floor [a sign of severe stress and genuine distress, way-past the point where the dog is capable 
of learning anything.]

the dog does not react or aggress - but is not happy or relaxed, either; this dog is miserable, and on edge. 
*if just One More Thing happens, like a child running toward them happily to hug the dog, the dog will lose it. 
they are on a very-narrow tightrope of barely-controlled anxiety, and anything can push them off.* 
this is not a sustainable situation; if the owner is very lucky, nothing will happen to further stress or distress the dog, 
and very slowly the intense anxiety will fade - but any little thing, a sudden noise [siren, gunshot, thunder,...] can revive it.



Miss'j said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...[*punitive*] *methods... do work* and he does not believe in euthanization but [believes we] humans
> are to blame for misunderstanding our dogs.


"not believing in euthanization" - the power to end a dog's life is always there; *Whether* we exercise it, 
and *Why* we exercise it, are the key concerns. _"i don't believe in euthanasia"_ is also saying, 
_"whatever suffering my dog may feel, i believe i do not have the right to end their life - they must die naturally."_ 
very-few people are literally willing to sit there and watch their dog die in agony of anaphylactic shock after being stung, 
or die over months from bone-cancer, going from 3-legged to unable to get up, lying down while voiding helplessly. 
we DON't 'accept' that it's natural for our dog to die after blundering into a bees-nest, we go to the vet; we get help. 
we DON't 'accept' that it's natural for our dog to die in terrible pain, unable to eat or rise to toilet; we treat the disease, 
if we can; we ease the pain, *and if we cannot either treat or ease the pain, we end their lives - as painlessly as possible.*

"not believing in euthanasia" is like not believing in gravity: if U step off the roof, U will fall, whether U believe or not. 
euthanasia is a fact, just like gravity; it can work for us, or we can work against it; but it exists, nonetheless.

euthanasia for untreatable disease, or for financial reasons when disease is treatable but too co$tly, happens every day. 
euthanasia for uncontrollable pain is IMO an unmitigated blessing; having an animal suffer without hope of recovery 
is IMO sheer cruelty, if they Will NOT heal and get better, and we Can NOT relieve their pain, then withholding 
euthanasia is IMO inexcusable - it's not our 'right' to keep a suffering animal alive, merely for the emotional comfort 
that it gives us to have them around, but for most owners, watching their pet suffer is the tortures of Hell. 
i know for myself, i would much-rather it be me in pain, than i watch my pet suffer; if this is a passing thing and they 
are healing, i am unhappy that they hurt, and i *treat* pain, i don't tell my pet to suck it up and get tough. 
but i KNOW [altho my pet does not] that this will pass. 
if it is not going to pass, but is terminal, and i cannot treat the pain, then it is time to say good-bye, and euthanize.

*behavioral euthanasia* is done when the animal is so traumatized or so dangerous that there is little or no hope 
of resolving the behavioral issue, and in most cases, the animal and the people involved are in a lot of emotional pain. 
it's a very fraught issue; behavioral-euths should never be casual, and they should not be done for convenience, 
just because coping with the animal is too difficult - but if the owner has sought competent, credentialed help, 
and B-Mod has been *consistently and conscientiously* used under that competent direction *and failed,* 
then euthanasia can be considered, or even be a kindness - but U have to TRY first, and not simply DIY, either.

it is IMO also *just as wicked and wrong* to rehome an animal with serious behavior issues, *simply to avoid 
being the one who has them killed - * that's an evasion of responsibility, and sliding out from under the weight 
by dumping it on another person's shoulders is reprehensible and sleazy. 
i have seen dogs with bite-histories turned in at shelters or given-over to rescue without a WORD about past-bites, 
which is about as evil an act as i can conceive - everyone is put at risk, from the kennel-carers to the other animals, 
depending upon what sort of aggro is involved, and it WON't save the dog's life; it guarantees that others will be hurt, 
AND the dog will die - maybe not today, but next week or next month, after another bite.

IMO if any dog [or other animal] has behavioral issues, whether they are serious or petty quirks, the owner needs to 
address them, not ignore them, and ASAP - the longer they continue the problem behavior, the more habitual and 
difficult that behavior becomes to alter; soonest seen is soonest mended, and the sooner the better. 
*anything involving aggro or fears, phobias or anxieties, is typically not a DIY project, 
but needs competent, supportive help from a qualified pro with credentials - not a franchise-owner with 3-weeks 
training, not a longtime dog-owner down the street, or the breeder who produced the pup, or anybody other than 
an affiliated trainer who has been assessed, a behavioral specialist who has educational credentials, or a vet-behaviorist.* 
in the UK that means APDT-uk at a minimum, plus competency and experience in B-Mod, not just manners, 
and specifically in aggro, phobias, sep-anx or whatever the trouble may be; above that minimum, there is COAPE 
or APBC or CAAB or vet-behaviorist.

re vet-behaviorists, *if they recommend meds for the animal WITH the B-Mod, i would suggest the owner try it, 
not say, "i don't want to drug my Fifi, Stryker, Bucephalus, ___".* vets do not prescribe on a whim - everything 
has the potential for side-effects, and the possible effects must outweigh the potential benefit for an ethical vet 
or doctor to prescribe the meds... so this means that the vet-behaviorist feels the animal will benefit more than 
they might lose, in this situation - or they would never have written the scrip. it is not "just to dope the dog" - 
they STILL need B-Mod, meds are not a majik-bullet, just pharmaceutical help.

some behavioral-meds take weeks or even months to reach therapeutic dosage and visible effects; giving the meds 
for a day or two, then stopping them because nothing happens, is pointless and Can Be Dangerous. some meds raise 
the inhibition of the animal, and abruptly stopping them can markedly lower inhibitions, meaning that self-control is 
no longer possible, and the animal will act-out much worse than formerly. 
be sure to ask about any possible side-effects, whether physical or behavioral, ANY interactions - with foods, other meds, 
flea-preventives, insecticides, etc - asking _"does this drug put a strain on the liver?"_ is a sensible precaution, 
as if it does, U will know that cleaning the kitchen or bathroom floor with phenols [Pine-Sol, etc] would be bad - 
phenols are liver-toxins, even the fumes are bad for someone whose liver-function is temporarily compromised.

making our dogs [or cats, horses, rabbits, parrots...] as happy as possible and fulfilling their needs means that their 
behavioral health and function is just as important and imperative as their physical health, or mental and emotional health.
a happy animal is not constantly acting-out, under tension, shut-down, cranky, snappish, dull, or withdrawn - 
they are confident in most situations, interact with their environs and others in them, interested and engaged, 
and engaging. *their own lives are happy and their needs are met - * and they add enormously to our lives, 
as we are privileged to live with them and share our human lives and in many cases, our homes - altho most horses 
do not live in human-homes with their owners, and would not in fact, prefer this; they like the company of other horses, 
 even when they are deeply fond of their humans.

all my best, 
- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Miss'j said:


> I will continue to be positive... Next year I'm taking Charlie my girl to shows and will keep you posted on her progress.


good for U! :thumbup: and good for Charlie, if she is the typical happy-go-lucky bull-terrier, she'll love shows; 
that's not to say they aren't stressful, they're noisy and crowded with barking dogs and strangers, lots of handling, 
privacy and peace are nonexistent - but they're exciting, and with good prep, most dogs learn to love the fun parts, 
and handle the stress and noise well - it becomes less-important than the fun and excitement.

i'd suggest testing her current training with Levels Training - it's free and on-line, it tells U immediately where any gap 
exists in her current understanding, and what parts are most in need of work; U and the dog set the progress, 
there is no '6 weeks and done' or do this in 3 days, and then start that; the dog progresses at their speed, depending 
upon how skilled U are at teaching, and which parts are easy or awkward for the dog or for the trainer. 
Levels.html 
U can read this on-line, print it as a book, print one page to carry it around [to the park, to the beach, downtown...]; 
the fact that Levels incorporates all the proofing means it saves a lot of time and error, when U test and score, U don't 
'guess' the dog knows it, U can be sure they know it, and raise the bar for the next step in training.

the more settings U train in, the more the desired behavior *generalizes*; dogs don't generalize easily, 
they need to learn that SIT in the living-room on carpet, in the yard on grass, at the vet's on a slippy S/S exam table, 
and on a wet sidewalk in the rain, are all the same thing - but don't set the bar so high, that the dog fails - asking a dog 
who despises rain and waits for 12-hours rather than pee on wet-grass, to SIT on a wet sidewalk while U hold the umbrella 
over Ur own head, is foolish; all it does is make the dog hate the SIT exercise, and they now have a distrust of Ur motives: 
why did U do that?... :nonod: winning the battle and losing the war is a short-term gain for long-term disaster.

instead, set the dog up to succeed, *manage* to keep possible wrong-answers to a minimum and maximize the odds 
of choosing the correct behavior, and *make the desired behavior rewarding* - treats, toys, praise, fun activities, 
real-life rewards [sit = dinner arrives], they all work to *make the desired behavior itself rewarding, over time*. 
this doesn't mean that we stop rewarding the desired behavior; even a 12-YO dog should get a 'good!' and a smile 
when they sit to monitor the mail-man at the door, but the 12-YO has had loads of rehearsal and can SIT on cue anywhere, 
anytime, barring the truly unique event. 
if an escaped circus-elephant ran past while U were out for a walk, with the police and animal-control and keepers 
in hot pursuit, plus a camera-car for a news-agency, the 12-YO might have trouble SITting on cue - but that's rare.

the 6-MO or 12-MO or 2-YO dog is still finding places where distraction or worry makes compliance hard - help them, 
don't punish them, and when they succeed, reward them. :thumbup: training is a lifelong practice, dogs learn 
just like humans, all their lives - the difference is only, _"what are they learning?"_ 
if they WERE well-behaved and BECOME badly-behaved, we have only ourselves to blame; the dog is innocent.

here's a support-group for Levels-Training - this is *world-wide* 
traininglevels : Training Levels Support 
there is even an opt-in for finding local folks who are also in Levels Training, so U can meet to walk the dogs or train, 
share tips for great places to train or local pos-R classes, and so on.

here's another specifically for pos-R training for the show-ring: 
clickershowdogs : Clicker and Positive Show Dog Training

in both cases, i would suggest to minimize the load of e-mail that U set the subscription ['edit membership'] 
for *special notices only* - this means no messages come to Ur in-box, U go to the archives to read the posts. 
downloading the free Yahoo-toolbar makes this easy, click on My Groups icon, then the group U want; 
or U can bookmark the page 'messages' as a Favorite. there are also Files, Links and Photos, and on UTube, videos. 
this is a new-dog in training with *sue ailsby* who designed Levels Training and wrote the book - 
YouTube - Lucy Level 1 Sue Ailsby's Training Levels: Foundation Training for life! 
she's almost 2-YO and has only been with *sue for 10-days, but her keen interest and enjoyment are obvious.

happy training, 
- terry


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## Miss'j (Jun 23, 2010)

A good read thank you Terry, I will have another read and put your advise into practice once I can use my other hand.. I'm enjoying learning all this and find it all very interesting.


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