# Russell Brand endorses voting for the Labour Party!



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This really is a must watch -


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

interesting. but i wonder why it is that just cos ed milliband said some things he agreed with Russell suddenly forgot that all politicians are incapable of telling the truth? I totally agree that we need to get the tories out somehow (i would prefer a much more guy fawkes like approach but whatever) but im not sure voting red tory instead of blue tory is the way to do that.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

_*Another bearded prat shouting revolution..how does this gobshite get so much publicity?*_


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

porps said:


> interesting. but i wonder why it is that just cos ed milliband said some things he agreed with Russell suddenly forgot that all politicians are incapable of telling the truth? I totally agree that we need to get the tories out somehow (i would prefer a much more guy fawkes like approach but whatever) but im not sure voting red tory instead of blue tory is the way to do that.


Strategic voting ie. labour is the most likely way of getting the tories out though.



poohdog said:


> _*Another bearded prat shouting revolution..how does this gobshite get so much publicity?*_


Probably because he's actually quite an intelligent (and kind) human being. Sadly, there are many people in positions of power who are neither of those things.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

porps said:


> interesting. but i wonder why it is that just cos ed milliband said some things he agreed with Russell suddenly forgot that all politicians are incapable of telling the truth? I totally agree that we need to get the tories out somehow (i would prefer a much more guy fawkes like approach but whatever) but im not sure voting red tory instead of blue tory is the way to do that.


Like Goldenshadow said, this is (hopefully) a strategy to get the Tories out.
And Labour is in no way as left wing as I would like.
But (call me gullible if you like ) I seriously do think that Ed Miliband at least is trying his best to be truthful in his campaign and that his own election strategy is based on this. It is just that we are so used to politicians lying that our brains go 'lalala' whenever we hear a politician saying he is going to tell us the truth.
Having said that, I'm not sure that trying to always tell the truth has done Ed many favours in some circles, particularly business circles, but we can only hope....


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

Really? A man who famously told us all not to vote, wrote that he would quite like to stir up a bit of an old riot in Belfast (wonder what 'side' he would come down on, or does he even realise what many riots were about here, and they weren't exactly a mutual coming together against the man, more pulling lumps out of each other) and a famous misogynist, no matter what he says. There's quite a big difference between being articulate and genuinely intelligent. 

I've not a problem with Russell Brand the entertainer, totally loved him on Big Brothers Little Brother and think that's where he should stay really, the whole Ed Milliband thing smacks of trying to get down with the yoof, I don't know wether I'm glad or not that I'm unable to vote in the general elections as none of them inspire me with any confidence.


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## Snowdog (Mar 3, 2015)

well, im on holiday

so i wont be voting for anybody


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Mrsred said:


> Really? A man who famously told us all not to vote, wrote that he would quite like to stir up a bit of an old riot in Belfast (wonder what 'side' he would come down on, or does he even realise what many riots were about here, and they weren't exactly a mutual coming together against the man, more pulling lumps out of each other) and a famous misogynist, no matter what he says. *There's quite a big difference between being articulate and genuinely intelligent. *
> 
> I've not a problem with Russell Brand the entertainer, totally loved him on Big Brothers Little Brother and think that's where he should stay really, the whole Ed Milliband thing smacks of trying to get down with the yoof, I don't know wether I'm glad or not that I'm unable to vote in the general elections as none of them inspire me with any confidence.


I definitely think he's an intelligent man. Being articulate is a way of communicating that, nothing more.

What I like about Russell Brand, is that he's lived in the gutter, he's made many mistakes yet he doesn't let people beat him down with it. In my view, some of the people who have the most to give, are those who have really been on their knees and seen life from an angle that many never will. People throw the druggie label at him still in an attempt to discredit him, even though he says he is past that etc. The fact people do that to him, and go to as much effort to slate him as they do, to me, just highlights that they disagree with him as opposed to anything else. Disagreeing with people is fine, treating them like a less than equal human being is not.

Perhaps I feel I can relate to him (not via drugs) and that is why he doesn't annoy me dreadfully. I think he puts up with an awful lot of stick and I am very pleased he has the voice that he does and uses it in a way he feels is right. All hail freedom of speech and those prepared to use it for me


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Snowdog said:


> well, im on holiday
> 
> so i wont be voting for anybody


Voting is important to me which is why I always do a postal vote in case I am not around on the day. I did mine week before last.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

silvi said:


> I seriously do think that Ed Miliband at least is trying his best to be truthful in his campaign and that his own election strategy is based on this.


LOL. We are talking about a man who started his introduction to last week's leaders debate by repeating his outrageous claim that the Tories have given every millionaire a £40k tax cut. This is an absolute and deliberate lie; one he has repeated consistently throughout his campaign but hasn't been tackled on it by the spineless suck-up's handling the new interviews and debates. I have rarely heard this weasel tell the truth.

Next he'll be claiming that he won't do a deal with the SNP.


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## Snowdog (Mar 3, 2015)

GoldenShadow said:


> Voting is important to me which is why I always do a postal vote in case I am not around on the day. I did mine week before last.


I booked my holiday

But i completely forgot their was an election when I did so

Then a potal vote was too late.
i was going to spoil anyway

Agree with most of what russell brand says, not convinced by the sudden vote labour line though


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## Snowdog (Mar 3, 2015)

Satori said:


> LOL. We are talking about a man who started his introduction to last week's leaders debate by repeating his outrageous claim that the Tories have given every millionaire a £40k tax cut. This is an absolute and deliberate lie;
> .


Explain?


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Mrsred said:


> the whole Ed Milliband thing smacks of trying to get down with the yoof.


Well yes, it is and in some ways it is all a little embarrassing.
But what was he to do? Ignore someone who appears to be having a huge influence on the younger generation and thus ignore the possibility of getting essential votes?
I think kudos to Ed for trying. It can't have been easy.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Snowdog said:


> Explain?


I second that


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Russell Brand is a silly little boy who likes to fantasise about being a revolutionary. I wouldn't take voting advice from him.

Besides I can't vote for labour or the tories :Shifty I can vote for ukip but I don't think I've seen a less trustworthy looking person than our local candidate. Sinn Fein will win in my area they always do and they'll continue fighting with the DUP as always


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Satori said:


> Next he'll be claiming that he won't do a deal with the SNP.


What he has actually said is that his campaign is based on winning - not on being PM by doing a deal.
He also said that he is fighting to keep all his manifesto promises, which is why a deal based on compromise of _Labour_ policies will not work.

But I think all of us realise that, whoever enters number 10 this time around will probably have to make an arrangement with other reasonably like-minded parties.

There is no reason why an agreement by the SNP, Plaid Cymru and Greens to vote for Labour policies, in return for a discussion on some of their policies, would be 'a deal by Labour'. the boot would actually be on the other foot.

After all, look at how the Lib Dems bent _their_ manifesto promises to get their chance at power.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

From my personal viewpoint, neither Russell Brand or Ed Milliband are true 'lefties', they are what my mother would call champagne socialists.

They don't understand the very real worries that ordinary people like me and my family have, watching how long the heating has been on for in winter because a big bill will cause a mini crisis, hoping your child gets back into school in September to do A Levels but secretly worrying how you will fund the £300 new uniform and even if she does get in and goes on to do a degree is it really worth it as she'll be saddled with £1000's of debt and will there be a job at the end of it anyway? When you earn a hairs breadth more than what's deemed to be in need of benefits and you try to be a good member of society, pay your mortgage, do the right thing and still you haven't been to a dentist in a decade as it costs too much - do you think messrs Brand and Milliband ever have to ponder on those type of things? They can hand wring and agree 'isn't it awful' and then go back to what is essentially a nice middle class life.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Russell Brand is a silly little boy who likes to fantasise about being a revolutionary. I wouldn't take voting advice from him.
> 
> Besides I can't vote for labour or the tories :Shifty I can vote for ukip but I don't think I've seen a less trustworthy looking person than our local candidate. Sinn Fein will win in my area they always do and they'll continue fighting with the DUP as always


Snap, although it will be DUP that get in in my area, and if they get in with the torys, then god help us all. We will be heading towards an evangelical, American Bible Belt state where only WASP's will have a decision.

A bit of an exaggeration but not without grounds, no legal abortion and anti gay marriage is already their manifesto.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Mrsred said:


> From my personal viewpoint, neither Russell Brand or Ed Milliband are true 'lefties', they are what my mother would call champagne socialists.
> 
> They don't understand the very real worries that ordinary people like me and my family have, watching how long the heating has been on for in winter because a big bill will cause a mini crisis, hoping your child gets back into school in September to do A Levels but secretly worrying how you will fund the £300 new uniform and even if she does get in and goes on to do a degree is it really worth it as she'll be saddled with £1000's of debt and will there be a job at the end of it anyway? When you earn a hairs breadth more than what's deemed to be in need of benefits and you try to be a good member of society, pay your mortgage, do the right thing and still you haven't been to a dentist in a decade as it costs too much - do you think messrs Brand and Milliband ever have to ponder on those type of things? They can hand wring and agree 'isn't it awful' and then go back to what is essentially a nice middle class life.


I'd say Ed is aiming for things that would make a difference to you more than Dave though.

Going off on a bit of a tangent but, I was lucky to get into uni in 2010 ie. missed the giant price hikes. My loan is a shade under 25K. I pay £40 a month currently and £31 a month of that is interest. That's on the 1.5% interest rate, people studying post 2012 pay over 6% interest. You never know, fees might come far down. Some student loans have been sold off to Erudio who have made life hard for a lot of people, there is a lot of uncertainty even for those of us with the student debt we currently have. If I was studying post 2012 I would have done a degree funded by the NHS. You don't have to go into it as a career, degrees don't usually pin you into a corner (I probably would have been happy in a clinical role of sorts though). There has been lots of uncertainties grad wise for a while. My brother graduated in 2009 when it was very hard going. All the banks and big city companies had slashed their graduate recruitment and a few were making the most of it and doubling their intake to snatch some high calibre people who would have gone elsewhere. Will stop waffling now!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Mrsred said:


> Snap, although it will be DUP that get in in my area, and if they get in with the torys, then god help us all. We will be heading towards an evangelical, American Bible Belt state where only WASP's will have a decision.
> 
> A bit of an exaggeration but not without grounds, no legal abortion and anti gay marriage is already their manifesto.


Doesn't surprise me, it's sad when it's Sinn Fein calling for a referendum on gay marriage of all people.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

RB has just handed the Tories quite a few votes, and UKIP too.....


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

GoldenShadow said:


> I'd say Ed is aiming for things that would make a difference to you more than Dave though.
> 
> Going off on a bit of a tangent but, I was lucky to get into uni in 2010 ie. missed the giant price hikes. My loan is a shade under 25K. I pay £40 a month currently and £31 a month of that is interest. That's on the 1.5% interest rate, people studying post 2012 pay over 6% interest.


See, If you hadnt gone to uni you might not be able to do all those calculations!


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Mrsred said:


> From my personal viewpoint, neither Russell Brand or Ed Milliband are true 'lefties', they are what my mother would call champagne socialists.
> 
> They don't understand the very real worries that ordinary people like me and my family have, watching how long the heating has been on for in winter because a big bill will cause a mini crisis, hoping your child gets back into school in September to do A Levels but secretly worrying how you will fund the £300 new uniform and even if she does get in and goes on to do a degree is it really worth it as she'll be saddled with £1000's of debt and will there be a job at the end of it anyway? When you earn a hairs breadth more than what's deemed to be in need of benefits and you try to be a good member of society, pay your mortgage, do the right thing and still you haven't been to a dentist in a decade as it costs too much - do you think messrs Brand and Milliband ever have to ponder on those type of things? They can hand wring and agree 'isn't it awful' and then go back to what is essentially a nice middle class life.


Totally agree on all of that, although i would say that Miliband's father was 'a true leftie' (I've read most of his books) but in the academic sense, rather than the 'living as the working class' sense.
But there again, most of the leaders of the left wing have never been members of the working class, hence the importance of the trade union movement to represent them.

As I said at the start, Labour policies are not 'left wing enough' for me, but for me they are still a darn sight better than the Tory alternative.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> RB has just handed the Tories quite a few votes, and UKIP too.....


I agree, I think it will be a big turn off to the undecided voter over a certain age.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Steve Coogan, Paul O'Grady, Eddie Izzard are a few more comedians backing labour. Delia Smith is urging people to vote labour to save the NHS http://ballot-blogs.uk/2015/05/04/delia-follows-coogan-with-vote-labour-message/

As is Professor Stephen Hawking - no one can surely accuse him of not being genuinely intelligent


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Why is he voting Labour? if it was last year the TORIES were running the show

and hes clever?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

What makes a comedian a political expert exactly?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

BTW, the trade unions started out representing workers, that went to the wall in the mid-70's when the reds took over

Scargill, Red Robbo, etc, etc.....but folk have forgotten them and the 3 day week and the 84 strike and cant even remember us having a British car industry....


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> What makes a comedian a political expert exactly?


I dunno, but it worked for Cameron, Cleggy and Milly band


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> RB has just handed the Tories quite a few votes, and UKIP too.....


Some would beg to differ (Owen Jones words)


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> BTW, the trade unions started out representing workers, that went to the wall in the mid-70's when the reds took over
> 
> Scargill, Red Robbo, etc, etc.....but folk have forgotten them and the 3 day week and the 84 strike and cant even remember us having a British car industry....


You really think that we lost the British car industry because of the unions?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Why is he voting Labour? if it was last year the TORIES were running the show
> 
> and hes clever?


Because he knows its the only hope of saving our NHS. Its recent - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...-labour-in-the-general-election-10206818.html

"and hes clever?" Well only you could ask that question about Stephen Hawking! pmsl


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Some would beg to differ (Owen Jones words)


Pigs follow a swill wagon, only out of greed though


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Only on an internet forum would someone make a statement that makes it sound like they think that they are smarter, and has better comprehension skills, than professor hawking.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Because he knows its the only hope of saving our NHS. Its recent - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...-labour-in-the-general-election-10206818.html
> 
> "and hes clever?" Well only you could ask that question about Stephen Hawking! pmsl


Obviously he doesnt understand how Labour expanded (vastly) the private hospital building programme which now sees the NHS crippled with vast rents


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

PFI contracts were a conservative invention (1992). Tories used them, Labour used them. Both responsible parties.
As with all political arguments, its convenient to blame the last government for all issues, regardless of whether they started the snowball. Tories will use PFIs to hit Labour ignoring the fact that they introduced them in the first place.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

silvi said:


> You really think that we lost the British car industry because of the unions?


75% of the blame lies with them for sure


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> PFI contracts were a conservative invention (1992). Tories used them, Labour used them. Both responsible parties.


Ok, I know that BUT under which party did the most PFI hospitals get built?

Remember Blair took over a LONG time ago...and was PM for 10 years, 97-07 then Brown took over (the mug) till 2010, the Pfi scheme only started in 1992, yet Labour didnt refuse to use it

QE Birmingham, opened in 2010, built under Labour £545 million for instance......scheduled to eventually cost £2.6000,000,000

*



When building work began in 2006, University Hospitals Birmingham Foundation Trust announced it would repay £40.8 million a year for more than 35 years to a consortium led by construction giant Balfour Beatty

Click to expand...

*


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

silvi said:


> Like Goldenshadow said, this is (hopefully) a strategy to get the Tories out.
> And Labour is in no way as left wing as I would like.
> But (call me gullible if you like ) I seriously do think that Ed Miliband at least is trying his best to be truthful in his campaign and that his own election strategy is based on this. It is just that we are so used to politicians lying that our brains go 'lalala' whenever we hear a politician saying he is going to tell us the truth.
> Having said that, I'm not sure that trying to always tell the truth has done Ed many favours in some circles, particularly business circles, but we can only hope....


I agree - I too would like Labour to be a lot more left wing, but that to one side Miliband is certainly coming across as more truthful and honest than all the rest of them put together. I suppose time will tell whether or not it is as much of an act as the rest are putting on - but compared to conscienceless Cameron, crooked Clegg and foolish Farage, he definitely seems to be the most sincere.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I once felt sorry for Brown walking into Blairs mess, then I realised it was HIS mess too


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

I'm not a Brand fan (I find him a bit of a blow hard, and this is too little too late as voter registration has closed and his "no vote" message damage is done), nor am I a labour voter (I am yet to decide), but I have worked on PFI contracts (a govt office, a school and a hospital) and so know how they work.
Yes, they are expensive (although I saw huge amounts of money wasted outside of that contract). IME They provide a higher quality service but at a cost; so I can see the thought behind it! At the end of the last labour govt the NHS was performing better than it is now. Nothing to do with PFIs and everything to do with funding. Tories have cut NHS funding, and they have done too much damage as a result. Labour cocked up with PFI spending, but at least they maintained the non PFI aspects with some decent level of funding.

(Worth noting that in PFI contracts its the hard and soft building services {cleaning, engineering, catering, landscaping Planned maintenance and repairs} that are private not the NHS aspect such as nursing, doctors, consultants etc - staffing remained funded as part of a normal NHS routine - what I dont know is how much a normal NHS hospital costs to maintain and run vs a PFI contracted hospital which has been built and subsequently maintained by the private company. If a contract is £1m a year, the excess payout would be £1m minus what would otherwise be spent... so figures produced by the propaganda crew are not accurate. ALSO worth noting is that PFI contracts are often penalty run, so if they do not perform to the KPIs then the authority can retain a % of payment. Primarily they were utilised in order to enable the NHS & Education authorities to build hospital/schools/whatever that would not have ordinarily been built/improved.)


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Satori said:


> LOL. We are talking about a man who started his introduction to last week's leaders debate by repeating his outrageous claim that the Tories have given every millionaire a £40k tax cut. This is an absolute and deliberate lie; one he has repeated consistently throughout his campaign but hasn't been tackled on it by the spineless suck-up's handling the new interviews and debates. I have rarely heard this weasel tell the truth.
> 
> Next he'll be claiming that he won't do a deal with the SNP.


Where is the lie? 
_
"If you are earning £1m, in *2012-13* you will pay:

*"20% on the first £42,475* = £8,495
*40% on £42,475-£150,000* = £43,010 
*and 50% on the remaining £850,000* = £425,000

That's a total of *£476,505* to pay in tax. (You lose your personal allowance after your wages top £116,210.)

But in *2013-14* you will pay:

*20% on the first £41,450* = £8,290
*40% on £41,450-£150,000* = £43,420
*and 45% on the remaining £850,000* = £382,500

That's a total of *£434,210* to pay in tax, *a saving of £42,295.*

*So people earning a million pounds a year will save £42,295 a year in tax due to the change to the top rate of tax."*
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ing-to-give-each-millionaire-a-40-000-tax-cut

Sure looks like a 40K a year tax cut to me._


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Is this the same Russell Brand who once rang an elderly chap and confessed to having humped his grandaughter live on national radio?

doesnt bode well for HIS judgement does it


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

OMG, do we believe millionaires pay PAYE tax?

get a grip folks


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> OMG, do we believe millionaires pay PAYE tax?
> 
> get a grip folks


The only person to mention PAYE was you. I'd tell you to go get a grip yourself but you'd probably misconstrue that too :Eggonface


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Steve Coogan, Paul O'Grady, Eddie Izzard are a few more comedians backing labour. Delia Smith is urging people to vote labour to save the NHS http://ballot-blogs.uk/2015/05/04/delia-follows-coogan-with-vote-labour-message/
> 
> As is Professor Stephen Hawking - no one can surely accuse him of not being genuinely intelligent


Good job he wasn't admitted to the Mid Staffs hospital during Labours time in power then.

I totally agreed with some NHS staff I heard questioning candidates of all parties last week (I think it might have been in Southampton) - they gave all of them a hard time and said they were fed up to their back teeth with politicians messing with the NHS and trying to change/reform things every time a new party get elected. They said its our NHS not yours so stop using it to score points and let us get on with running it.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Snowdog said:


> Explain?


There has been no tax cut for millionaires at any point in the Tory governments administration. He likely refers to the reduction in the top rate of tax but that is related to income and has nothing to do with millionaires whatsoever.

If is true that if you earn a million pounds a year you would have got back each year half of the 80 thousand that the previous labour government stole off you but that is a tiny number of people and a very small fraction of millionaires. Of 700,000 millionaires in the UK fewer than 20,000 got the tax cut that sillyband refers to. He know this because he was called out lying about this issue some years ago by, I think, Andrew Neil and others. Despite that he continues to repeat the lie.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Where is the lie?
> _
> "If you are earning £1m, in *2012-13* you will pay:
> 
> ...


You honestly don't know the difference between a millionaire and someone earning a million pounds a year? Puurrllease.

Quoted from the same article you linked to "*So Miliband's claim is wrong. All millionaires will not get a tax cut of £40,000.*"


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Find me a millionaire (or anyone earning a million per year) who pays PAYE income tax ON IT ALL and ill eat my trilby

once you get to these figures you get accountants who cost £50K a year to advise how to NOT pay tax (legally)

no-one gets rich (or stays rich) by handing it over to HMRC


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

what ive not heard (or maybe missed) is Milly Labour standing up and stating he/they will repeal the hated bedroom tax on day 1 in office...

have they?


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

".........


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Pigs follow a swill wagon, only out of greed though


Eh? 



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Good job he wasn't admitted to the Mid Staffs hospital during Labours time in power then.
> 
> I totally agreed with some NHS staff I heard questioning candidates of all parties last week (I think it might have been in Southampton) - they gave all of them a hard time and said they were fed up to their back teeth with politicians messing with the NHS and trying to change/reform things every time a new party get elected. They said its our NHS not yours so stop using it to score points and let us get on with running it.


I know Labour have done some really bad things but its this government that has brought our NHS to its knees. If they get back in its game over for the NHS. The NHA Party have just shared this -


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Satori said:


> There has been no tax cut for millionaires at any point in the Tory governments administration. He likely refers to the reduction in the top rate of tax but that is related to income and has nothing to do with millionaires whatsoever.
> 
> If is true that if you *earn* a million pounds a year you would have got back each year half of the 80 thousand that the previous labour government stole off you but that is a tiny number of people and a very small fraction of millionaires. Of 700,000 millionaires in the UK fewer than 20,000 got the tax cut that sillyband refers to. He know this because he was called out lying about this issue some years ago by, I think, Andrew Neil and others. Despite that he continues to repeat the lie.


But you are not quite telling the whole truth here, are you? Your don't have to EARN the million during the year - your INCOME has to be over one million a year, earned or unearned. All income is taxable, not just earned income. So in answer to your question below - yes, I do understand the difference between someone who earns a million and a millionaire. Unlike you, however, I'm not trying to use semantics to confuse the issue and pretend the situation is better than it is.

However much you try to dress it up, however much you try to use semantics to disguise it, however much you try to deflect attention away from facts by calling Miliband out on a technicality, the bottom line is that the richer members of society were given tax relief which amounted to over 40K per year in thier pocket, whilst the most vulnerable members of society - the poor, the elderly, the ill, the unemployed, the disabled - had their standard of living cut dramatically to the extent that many died. The rich were 40K a year better off while over a million people were left to depend upon food banks.



Satori said:


> You honestly don't know the difference between a millionaire and someone earning a million pounds a year? Puurrllease.


See answer above



Satori said:


> Quoted from the same article you linked to "*So Miliband's claim is wrong. All millionaires will not get a tax cut of £40,000.*"


All that means is that the journalist is playing the same games as you - either that or you genuinely believe what he has written (but from discussions we have had in the past I know you are much too intelligent to be fooled like that!)


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Mrsred said:


> From my personal viewpoint, neither* Russell Brand or Ed Milliband are true 'lefties', they are what my mother would call champagne socialists.*
> 
> They don't understand the very real worries that ordinary people like me and my family have, watching how long the heating has been on for in winter because a big bill will cause a mini crisis, hoping your child gets back into school in September to do A Levels but secretly worrying how you will fund the £300 new uniform and even if she does get in and goes on to do a degree is it really worth it as she'll be saddled with £1000's of debt and will there be a job at the end of it anyway? When you earn a hairs breadth more than what's deemed to be in need of benefits and you try to be a good member of society, pay your mortgage, do the right thing and still you haven't been to a dentist in a decade as it costs too much - do you think messrs Brand and Milliband ever have to ponder on those type of things? They can hand wring and agree 'isn't it awful' and then go back to what is essentially a nice middle class life.


Bingo!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Problem with taking from the rich to give to the poor is that the rich can up their sticks and move somewhere else ..like Dubai..
You can see it in Gibraltar ..the more Spain insists on rising our taxes..the less taxes we get and the more rich people leave EU for Asia etc.money running out of Europe...and whom it benefit...guess...
While people who where employed by the rich, the spas , the bars..shpos are closing..


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> PFI contracts were a conservative invention (1992). Tories used them, Labour used them. Both responsible parties.
> As with all political arguments, its convenient to blame the last government for all issues, regardless of whether they started the snowball. Tories will use PFIs to hit Labour ignoring the fact that they introduced them in the first place.


Hmm, a topic I actually know a bit about first hand.

My Dad is a hospital designer. Yes, as in the massive capital projects kind. I still have a mug from the grand opening of a new suite of operating theaters at the Birmingham Childrens Hospital when I was a kid, and got the be a demonstration model for some of the (then!) state of the art new gear. I've seen concept sketches of some other projects long before they were ever released to the press, and grew up with discarded chemical copier produced drawing reproductions as my scribble paper.

Dad always _hated_ PFI and didn't want to see it introduced - he knew it would probably end up in precisely the mess we have now. But, and this is a BIG but, he has always maintained that at least the tories mainly used them relatively responsibly as originally intended for small scale projects, whereas labour took the brakes off and allowed it to be used on many massive projects in a manner it was never intended for, leading to extortionate repayments for decades to come. And being rather directly involved with the area, I suspect he knows what he is talking about


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

And, for all you Labour voters

*Exposed: Ed Balls the cheque bouncer! He wants to run Britain's finances but just six months ago he couldn't even write a £150 cheque to his glazier - twice *

*Ed Balls wrote £150 cheque to glazier for doing work on his £1million home*
*But his bank refused to honour it, sending cheque back to the tradesman *
*Mr Balls sent an apology and a second cheque but that was also refused*
*Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps warned 'the man who wants to be in charge of the nation's finances can't even look after his own'*
By Glen Owen, Political Correspondent For The Mail On Sunday

Published: 22:00, 2 May 2015 | Updated: 13:32, 3 May 2015

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3065618/Exposed-Ed-Balls-cheque-bouncer-wants-run-Britain-s-finances-just-six-months-ago-couldn-t-write-good-cheque-150-glazier-TWICE.html#ixzz3ZDR1k2J1 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


> LOL. We are talking about a man who started his introduction to last week's leaders debate by repeating his outrageous claim that the Tories have given every millionaire a £40k tax cut. *This is an absolute and deliberate lie;* one he has repeated consistently throughout his campaign but hasn't been tackled on it by the spineless suck-up's handling the new interviews and debates. I have rarely heard this weasel tell the truth.
> 
> Next he'll be claiming that he won't do a deal with the SNP.


I hope people are more concerned with these absolute, deliberate & now PROVEN lies.














Ang2 said:


> And, for all you Labour voters
> 
> *Exposed: Ed Balls the cheque bouncer! He wants to run Britain's finances but just six months ago he couldn't even write a £150 cheque to his glazier - twice *
> 
> ...


Grant 'Michael Green' 'Sebastian Fox' Schapps? Oh dear Ang, he is the biggest fraudster & perpetual liar probably in the whole history of politics:Wideyed

Did you realise George Osborne has absolutely no background qualifications in economics? ( it shows  )


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

No good choices... Cannot support any of the main parties. Luckily it doesn't affect me personally. It does affect my family however and the simple fact is.. if the economy is shot, as it will be under labour, the NHS will not be far behind. Could labour produce a strong economy?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> No good choices... Cannot support any of the main parties. Luckily it doesn't affect me personally. It does affect my family however and the simple fact is.. if the economy is shot, as it will be under labour, the NHS will not be far behind. Could labour produce a strong economy?


The economy was growing under the last labour government - it certainly isn't now. Two thirds of eminent economists agree coalitions austerity policies have damaged the economy - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...on-austerity-harmed-the-economy-10149410.html

If they get back in they are going to make £12 Billion more cuts to welfare budget, they refuse to exempt NHS from TTIP - NHS is finished.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

"Be angry with the powerful, not your neighbours. Remember our ancestors. Vote with hope." Owen Jones election video -

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-dont-let-your-voice-be-taken-away-owen-jones


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Is anyone actually influenced by what these "celebs" and journalists say? would anyone actually vote Labour just because Russell Brand told them to?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Is anyone actually influenced by what these "celebs" and journalists say? would anyone actually vote Labour just because Russell Brand told them to?


I get my info from all sources & have always found Russell Brand far more trustworthy than the corporate media - most of which is owned by non dom media moguls lol.

The tories themselves have said they will roll out the badger cull (targeting badger cubs in the next few weeks if they get back in), have said they will give a vote to repeal the hunting act, have vowed to frack the uk pretty much unregulated. Based on these 3 issues alone, I could NEVER vote for such a party.

.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Is anyone actually influenced by what these "celebs" and journalists say? would anyone actually vote Labour just because Russell Brand told them to?


I doubt whether anyone on here would do so, but have no idea whether anyone else would .

But it's not really the case of 'doing what Russell tells you to do'; it's about trying to fight a negative image - that all politicians are liars and it's not worth voting for any of them, because at this stage not voting will get us nowhere.

It's all very well saying "we should have a 'no confidence' box to put our cross in" and waiting to vote until that miraculously appears on our voting slips, but in the meantime, this country is turning into a place where I fear for my kids growing up and it will continue this downhill slide if, through apathy, we let the Tories in again.

If just a few people decide to sit up and listen to the political arguments because Russell Brand has declared an interest (rather than a negative interest as previously), even if they vote for a party other than Labour, then that interview has done at least part of its job.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> I get my info from all sources & have always found Russell Brand far more trustworthy than the corporate media - most of which is owned by non dom media moguls lol.
> 
> The tories themselves have said they will roll out the badger cull (targeting badger cubs in the next few weeks if they get back in), have said they will give a vote to repeal the hunting act, have vowed to frack the uk pretty much unregulated. Based on these 3 issues alone, I could NEVER vote for such a party.
> 
> .


I'm not suggesting you should Noushka, my point wasn't about who people decide to vote for but whether they are actually influenced by what a celebrity tells them to do. Wouldn't make any difference to me whether it was Russell Brand or Madonna or Simon Cowell - I wouldn't be interested in how they vote or what they think about politics.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

silvi said:


> I doubt whether anyone on here would do so, but have no idea whether anyone else would .
> 
> But it's not really the case of 'doing what Russell tells you to do'; it's about trying to fight a negative image - that all politicians are liars and it's not worth voting for any of them, because at this stage not voting will get us nowhere.
> 
> ...


He left it a bit late though - having advised not to vote, now vote Labour but hey its too late to register.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

No one is disputing the conservatives have some very unsavoury items on their agenda, but put yourself in the shoes of joe bloggs who is undecided on their vote. 

Russell Brand, who very famously and publicly decreed none of us should vote, he himself will NEVER vote and then aligns himself with the greens. And now he sets himself up with Miliband. By definition he has made himself look contrary and untrustworthy and by association, Miliband looks desperate and scrabbling for votes by aligning himself with someone who called all politicians untrustworthy.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> He left it a bit late though - having advised not to vote, now vote Labour but hey its too late to register.


Yes, there is that 
There will always be thousands who are not on the electoral register for one reason or another, but I have a feeling that a lot of the previous 'non-voters' are nevertheless registered to vote.

I live in 'flat land' and the electoral register people have been relentless around here in the last few months, making sure that people sign up (and reminding them that it is important to be on the register for other reasons). So, unless people have a good reason not to be on the register, I reckon that most of them will have signed it by now.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Mrsred said:


> No one is disputing the conservatives have some very unsavoury items on their agenda, but put yourself in the shoes of joe bloggs who is undecided on their vote.
> 
> Russell Brand, who very famously and publicly decreed none of us should vote, he himself will NEVER vote and then aligns himself with the greens. And now he sets himself up with Miliband. By definition he has made himself look contrary and untrustworthy and by association, Miliband looks desperate and scrabbling for votes by aligning himself with someone who called all politicians untrustworthy.


Or, he looks like someone who has strong views but was nevertheless prepared to listen and modify his views accordingly?


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

Mrsred said:


> No one is disputing the conservatives have some very unsavoury items on their agenda, but put yourself in the shoes of joe bloggs who is undecided on their vote.
> 
> Russell Brand, who very famously and publicly decreed none of us should vote, he himself will NEVER vote and then aligns himself with the greens. And now he sets himself up with Miliband. By definition he has made himself look contrary and untrustworthy and by association, Miliband looks desperate and scrabbling for votes by aligning himself with someone who called all politicians untrustworthy.


I suppose that would depend on how you look at it, though. I think for the vast majority of people there hasn't been an obvious candidate to vote for before. Most of us are sick of how things are now, can see the injustice and want a change but were too disillusioned with the whole system to believe that change was possible. The more Miliband talks, though, the more he seems like a viable option (even if it's just to get the soul sucking Tory bastards out). I can understand Brand changing his mind (and I am in no way a fan of his). We can't carry on the way we are, revolution is not going to happen so we need to affect change within the system that we have.

So speaking as a Jo Bloggs who has been ping-ponging all over the place in this election campaign, I don't see Brand as contrary, just fluid in his thinking. Better than being stubbornly stuck and unable to admit you were wrong. (Although I did notice he didn't ever quite say, "Hey, I was wrong!" in that vid - bit of politician in him after all, maybe?).


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

To two different parties? Had it been one, fair enough but not to two. You can look at all parties manifestos and pick things that would suit you individually but ultimately you stick with one.

Out of interest, I asked my 16 year old daughter that if she could vote, who would she vote for.

She replied she didn't actually know but probably not Miliband 'as he turns her stomach'.
And that's what young people think like, the actual policies mean nowt when you yourself aren't responsible for the bills and the children etc. So if we are relying on the 18 year olds vote and they think like that, we are screwed anyway!


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Mrsred said:


> To two different parties? Had it been one, fair enough but not to two. You can look at all parties manifestos and pick things that would suit you individually but ultimately you stick with one.


I too would consider voting for the Greens....if I voted in a constituency where they stood a reasonable chance. But in the constituency where I'm voting the Greens have no hope. Admittedly Labour doesn't have much hope either, but a little more anyway (and they certainly have a chance on the council which we are voting for at the same time).

(And I know that sounds unfair on the Greens, but this election is too important to think about niceties)


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm not suggesting you should Noushka, my point wasn't about who people decide to vote for but whether they are actually influenced by what a celebrity tells them to do. Wouldn't make any difference to me whether it was Russell Brand or Madonna or Simon Cowell - I wouldn't be interested in how they vote or what they think about politics.


Russell Brand is very popular with young people so I believe he has likely influenced a lot of young potential voters. He comes across as honest & has a really good way of engaging with young people, hes certainly got my youngest interested in politics  (he'll be voting for the 1st time this year! lol). RB began the Trews (true news) to give people a wider perspective because he was so disillusioned with the mainstream medias narrow (& often untruthful) representation of issues. He presents facts & figures and shows all sides of the picture rather than the one the corporate media want you to see. So at least people can make more informed opinions if they also watch his videos.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

silvi said:


> I too would consider voting for the Greens....if I voted in a constituency where they stood a reasonable chance. But in the constituency where I'm voting the Greens have no hope. Admittedly Labour doesn't have much hope either, but a little more anyway (and they certainly have a chance on the council which we are voting for at the same time).
> 
> (And I know that sounds unfair on the Greens, but this election is too important to think about niceties)


I'm the same, the party I vote for here in NI haven't a snowballs chance in hell, what with them not being clean mad about marching, speaking Irish or flying flags and them actually wanting an inclusive society. But I will still vote for them none the less!


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Mrsred said:


> Out of interest, I asked my 16 year old daughter that if she could vote, who would she vote for.
> 
> She replied she didn't actually know but probably not Miliband 'as he turns her stomach'.
> And that's what young people think like, the actual policies mean nowt when you yourself aren't responsible for the bills and the children etc. So if we are relying on the 18 year olds vote and they think like that, we are screwed anyway!


I think that some of the 'Miliband turns her stomach' 16-year-old attitude is down to how he has been portrayed in the media. And even if a teenage girl is stuck most of her spare time on FB and Instagram she will not have been able to avoid it .
(Not picking on her by the way; I have a 14-year-old with those interests....)

And that's the type of campaign that Miliband has been fighting; even on supposedly neutral TV shows.
And that's probably another reason why an endorsement from Russell brand could help .


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Curious to know what it is about Ed's personality or looks that would 'turn the stomach' of a 16 yr old He seems to be an inherently decent, honest, hard working family man, a what-you-see-is what-you-get kind of a person, and he is quite nice looking. I'd have expected young people to maybe find him dull, unexciting or unglamorous, but not nauseating!  

I have no problems with Ed myself, more so with some of Labour's policies, and I'd be happier voting Green, but the best chance of getting the Tories out of the seat in my area is for me to vote Labour as usual.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Just seen this tweet by Brian May

*FRIGHTENING: The outcome of this election is LIFE or DEATH for animals, and, as shown here, the Health Service http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ganise-nhs-after-election?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

Bri
*


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

My two eldest are coming up to 13 and 14 and this is the first election they are really aware of and interested in. They've watched a lot of the debates and asked loads of questions (lots of which I've had to research to answer for them). They both like the Green party and if they could would vote for them. Their friends seem of a similar mind. I think the younger generation care more about the environment than a lot of other issues, certainly the teens I talk to do. Although my daughter is also interested in education and, more specifically, tuition fees as she's hoping to go to uni in a few years.

They think Miliband looks like a Wallace and Gromit character (unclear if this is a good or bad thing!) Clegg they sort of like because he went on The Last Leg (although when I told my daughter about the tuition fees fiasco she went right off him!) Cameron gets referred to as 'Spud Head' and Farage is just ridiculed. I haven't really been able to argue with many of their observations to be honest.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

I think she thinks he is nasal and has a bouffant. Also, he committed a cardinal sin in her eyes, there can be nothing worse to a 16 year old than having a grown up trying to be 'cool' (the Russell brand thing) i mean, cringeworthy!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

It is being caught in the nrt of ifs
...So BlahblahBlair endorsed Labour too...

If economy fails...andLabour is likely to do just that..
We will have many more abandoned animals..
No money for health care..plus they will give Gibraltar to Spain...Blair tried already...or ruin us by rising taxes...
I am British..
But cannot vote though Gibraltar is British and who is in power decides about us...but like our monkeys we have no right to representation.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Mulish said:


> My two eldest are coming up to 13 and 14 and this is the first election they are really aware of and interested in. They've watched a lot of the debates and asked loads of questions (lots of which I've had to research to answer for them). They both like the Green party and if they could would vote for them. Their friends seem of a similar mind. I think the younger generation care more about the environment than a lot of other issues, certainly the teens I talk to do. Although my daughter is also interested in education and, more specifically, tuition fees as she's hoping to go to uni in a few years.
> 
> They think Miliband looks like a Wallace and Gromit character (unclear if this is a good or bad thing!) Clegg they sort of like because he went on The Last Leg (although when I told my daughter about the tuition fees fiasco she went right off him!) Cameron gets referred to as 'Spud Head' and Farage is just ridiculed. I haven't really been able to argue with many of their observations to be honest.


My two are 12 and 14 and, although the eldest in particular is much more interested in FB and Instagram (and her feelings because she has just split up with her first boyfriend....), they have talked about politics with me and have quite strong feelings on human rights and prejudice.
But I don't know how much their political views (when they have them) are down to me, as I'll admit I am quite vocal around the house about how I feel.

And I have a feeling that if they were allowed to vote, on the day it would depend on whether they had rowed with me in the morning or whether they had had a good send off to school as to which way they voted....

Could be wrong though. But I'm glad that they will not be able to vote until their emotions have (hopefully....) settled down a bit .


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> Just seen this tweet by Brian May
> 
> *FRIGHTENING: The outcome of this election is LIFE or DEATH for animals, and, as shown here, the Health Service http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ganise-nhs-after-election?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
> 
> Bri*


Frankly the NHS has already gone...its just waiting for somebody to pull the plug.

I didnt get the Brand/Miliband interview TBH. All I saw was a politician telling someone exactly what they wanted to hear while at the same time telling them absolutely nothing at all!
In other words exactly what every single politician the world over does!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Mrsred said:


> he committed a cardinal sin in her eyes, there can be nothing worse to a 16 year old than having a grown up trying to be 'cool' (the Russell brand thing) i mean, cringeworthy!


Does your daughter also find Russell uncool I wonder? I can imagine him giving a 16 yr old girl the creeps! [He does me!] :Vomit


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

silvi said:


> My two are 12 and 14 and, although the eldest in particular is much more interested in FB and Instagram (and her feelings because she has just split up with her first boyfriend....), they have talked about politics with me and have quite strong feelings on human rights and prejudice.
> But I don't know how much their political views (when they have them) are down to me, as I'll admit I am quite vocal around the house about how I feel.
> 
> And I have a feeling that if they were allowed to vote, on the day it would depend on whether they had rowed with me in the morning or whether they had had a good send off to school as to which way they voted....
> ...


Ha, yeah, I could just see my son spite voting for someone he knew I hated because I told him he couldn't stay up "just 10 more minutes" the night before 

I think mine often spout back what I rave on about, too (that's what my husband seems to think - he's not a fan of politics at the dinner table). They get quite a lot of information about politics and government at school, too, though, so we've had some interesting debates. At their ages they are so torn between wanting to emulate us and wanting to rebel against us it makes for some interesting and unstable decision making. Not sure that magically stops at 18, though!

Hope your daughter gets over her tragic split. Mine still thinks boys are all stupid and smelly and completely beneath her so I've got all of that still to look forward to :Woot


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Mulish said:


> At their ages they are so torn between wanting to emulate us and wanting to rebel against us it makes for some interesting and unstable decision making. Not sure that magically stops at 18, though!


To tell the truth, I remember still being pretty unsure of my views (and of who I was as a person) at 18 too.... but by then I had more influences at uni..... I don't think I really grew up properly until well into my twenties...if at all, lol!



Mulish said:


> Hope your daughter gets over her tragic split. Mine still thinks boys are all stupid and smelly and completely beneath her so I've got all of that still to look forward to :Woot


It's okay, she dumped him 
But now she watches out for any other girl who wants to go out with him, so it'll be a while before she's really over it.

That's one thing I definitely don't miss about being a teenager!


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

Agreed, I was 18 and living on the Walworth Rd the night that Tony Blair came into power. 

Did I know that Walworth Rd was the old Labour Party headquarters? Did I chuff, all I was interested in was getting my pay packet, putting away to cover the rent and then blowing the rest in the bar on a Friday night. I wasn't even on the electoral register.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Mrsred said:


> To two different parties? Had it been one, fair enough but not to two. You can look at all parties manifestos and pick things that would suit you individually but ultimately you stick with one.
> 
> Out of interest, I asked my 16 year old daughter that if she could vote, who would she vote for.
> 
> ...


Your Daughters not a Milifan?:Wideyed OMG lol

Whatever your political persuasion this is brilliant!








catz4m8z said:


> *Frankly the NHS has already gone...its just waiting for somebody to pull the plug*.
> 
> I didnt get the Brand/Miliband interview TBH. All I saw was a politician telling someone exactly what they wanted to hear while at the same time telling them absolutely nothing at all!
> In other words exactly what every single politician the world over does!


It was found to be one of the most cost effective, fairest, most efficient health services in the world before Cameron set about destroying it - http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> But you are not quite telling the whole truth here, are you? Your don't have to EARN the million during the year - your INCOME has to be over one million a year, earned or unearned. All income is taxable, not just earned income. So in answer to your question below - yes, I do understand the difference between someone who earns a million and a millionaire. Unlike you, however, I'm not trying to use semantics to confuse the issue and pretend the situation is better than it is.
> 
> However much you try to dress it up, however much you try to use semantics to disguise it, however much you try to deflect attention away from facts by calling Miliband out on a technicality, the bottom line is that the richer members of society were given tax relief which amounted to over 40K per year in thier pocket, whilst the most vulnerable members of society - the poor, the elderly, the ill, the unemployed, the disabled - had their standard of living cut dramatically to the extent that many died. The rich were 40K a year better off while over a million people were left to depend upon food banks.
> 
> ...


Fact: Ed Miliband's statement that every millionaire received a £40k+ tax cut is simply untrue. All the rest is just you playing with words. You should run for political office


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> I am British..
> But cannot vote though Gibraltar is British and who is in power decides about us...but like our monkeys we have no right to representation.


Just out of interest, why can't you vote?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> It was found to be one of the most cost effective, fairest, most efficient health services in the world before Cameron set about destroying it - http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services


Depends on which propaganda you actually look at doesn't it. If you go into details about NHS privatisation you find labour's footprints all over it and debts payable for years. Of course you generally ignore that as it doesn't suit your anti tory rhetoric, especially when crying out about tory privatisation.

Do I think the tories are great.. no. Do I think labour are any better.. no. That's the problem with this election. There are no good choices. Labour voters will vote labour, tory voters tory, the rest.. well doesn't really matter, it's most likely going to be decided by backroom dealings on a coalition rather than people power.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I don't find either Miliband or Cameron convincing as powerful political leaders who have huge influence within the Cabinet (or Shadow Cabinet). Unlike say Blair or Thatcher in the past, who were so charismatic and persuasive they could probably have convinced the Cabinet to back them on just about anything! 

Both Ed and Cameron just seem to be 'front men' for the true wielders of power, and I really can't get wound up about either of them as individuals or their personal foibles, appearance, speech etc. But I can and do get worked up with regard to the policies of their Parties.:Watching


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Depends on which propaganda you actually look at doesn't it. If you go into details about NHS privatisation you find labour's footprints all over it and debts payable for years. Of course you generally ignore that as it doesn't suit your anti tory rhetoric, especially when crying out about tory privatisation.
> 
> Do I think the tories are great.. no. Do I think labour are any better.. no. That's the problem with this election. There are no good choices. Labour voters will vote labour, tory voters tory, the rest.. well doesn't really matter, it's most likely going to be decided by backroom dealings on a coalition rather than people power.


Mine isn't propaganda its coming directly from NHA Party & Dr Clive Peedell etcs twitter feed. And I make no excuses for what the previous labour did either, but when they left power patient satisfaction was at an all time high - its now at all time low!. I know Labours pledges for the NHS aren't good enough but they are only hope of saving it. The best scenario would be a minority Labour govt with the Greens, SNP, Plaid Cymru, these parties are fighting to stop NHS privatisation & oppose austerity .

Heres a recent tweet by Dr Clive Peedell - Top public health experts accuse Coalition of causing thousands of unnecessary deaths (long list of signatories)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/03/us-and-british-health-specialists-support-the-nhs


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

chillminx said:


> I don't find either Miliband or Cameron convincing as powerful political leaders who have huge influence within the Cabinet (or Shadow Cabinet). Unlike say Blair or Thatcher in the past, who were so charismatic and persuasive they could probably have convinced the Cabinet to back them on just about anything!


This is very true but I'm wondering if that might be a good thing. It's not like Thatcher or Blair are universally remembered with love for their fair and just handling of power (Blair seemed to be doing okay up until the Iraq crap hit the fan, I suppose).

I remember Blair coming into power. I remember the elation and the feeling of hope for changes for the better. I also remember how revolted I ended up feeling by him. I'd take an honest meh-inducer over a charismatic liar any day. Not sure how honest any of them actually are but Miliband seems to be the best (or the least worst, I can't decide!) of a bad bunch.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Satori said:


> Fact: Ed Miliband's statement that every millionaire received a £40k+ tax cut is simply untrue. All the rest is just you playing with words. You should run for political office


 Fact: you are using this to divert attention from the fact that Tory policies have made the rich richer at the expense of the poor, the elderly, the disabled, the unemployed and the ill. I'd say that this qualifies you to run for head of the Tory Party - but then one Cameron is enough.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Just seen a photo on FB of RB leaving on a private jet in true socialist style


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Fact: you are using this to divert attention from the fact that Tory policies have made the rich richer at the expense of the poor, the elderly, the disabled, the unemployed and the ill. I'd say that this qualifies you to run for head of the Tory Party - but then one Cameron is enough.


The rich will always be rich, they aint as stupid as the working tax paying classes


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Cookieandme said:


> Just seen a photo on FB of RB leaving on a private jet in true socialist style


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...rand-Ed-Miliband-and-Labours-front-bench.html


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Is anyone actually influenced by what these "celebs" and journalists say? would anyone actually vote Labour just because Russell Brand told them to?


Well, there was a program on the local radio station when I was driving to work the other day - they were interviewing young people and asking who they would vote for. Their lack of knowledge was appalling, and was topped only by their indifference to the whole "politics" thing. Most of them said different versions of, "well, it's all old folks, nothing to do with young people, is it?" I'm guessing that such people would be more likely to listen to a celebrity than a politician - so If someone like Russell Brand can make them realise that politics has everything to do with them, then it can only be good, can't it?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> The rich will always be rich, they aint as stupid as the working tax paying classes


And the rich will always get richer at the expense of the working classes whuile ever we have a Tory government ripping the heart out of poorer, vulnerable people.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I afraid hes a pr***, the drugs havent worn off


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> And the rich will always get richer at the expense of the working classes whuile ever we have a Tory government ripping the heart out of poorer, vulnerable people.


and the Blair's didnt make a mint out of those Bristol flats?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2546835.stm


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Misi said:


> Just out of interest, why can't you vote?


Because we are not French. France gave all French Overseas Territories same rights..so as they are governed by France they have rights to vote. We should be treated just as any part of Britain...if you know history of the Rock you know it deserves better..whether Spain likes it or not.

Blair promised to give Gib to Aznar...It seems for the Rock Labour is mortally dangerous.
Plus..
If Labour gets hold of economy...thre will be many more abandoned animals owners cannot keep. If economy deeps how we get money for shelters.
No, pity I do not see good leaders...Boris Johnson possibly better than Cameron.
Cannot vote...but though choice.

Must say ...Miliband the Elder was better than Plastic Ed.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

and Prescott didnt have 2 jags and Scargill didnt stay put in his NUM paid flat TEN years after standing down as leader

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20303797

Plus

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25731328


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)




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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Mine isn't propaganda


It is propaganda. Isn't labour in charge of the welsh NHS trust which people are physically moving away from to ensure treatment? In real terms hasn't the Tory party invested more money into the NHS than labour. According to some figures I've seen they have but then figures can be written to mislead as you like. Once again you ignore the largest privatisation effort of the NHS was during the labour term in office and it's still being paid for but then that's not convenient.

In truth, Tony Benn's comment about japanese boat race and the NHS hits the mark and that goes for both the Tories and Labour as they are both responsible but it is not Labour good, Tory bad as you make it out to be.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> and the Blair's didnt make a mint out of those Bristol flats?
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2546835.stm


If you care anything about our NHS & want to see it continue please watch this CB. Marcus Chown explains what the coalition did when they pushed through the Health and Social Care Act.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Some people do take all their cues from celebs, not an attack on anyone on this thread, it's fine to use all the information available but to make up your own mind.

I just reread the pamphlets how many times do you think you can claim to be honest and hardworking before people stop believing you?  That was the UKIP guy not that the others are much better tbh. The problem is that the major parties here could have a say in the next government, Sinn Fein won't sit in parliament, the DUP are religious nutjobs and the SDLP are all about a united Ireland.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

well myself, my wife and her mum have all been in hospital (Buton on trent, Heartlands and Good Hope) in the last 12 months with various issues and the "run down and dilapidated, skint and broken" NHS has been brilliant, maybe we found another NHS in a parallel universe?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> well myself, my wife and her mum have all been in hospital (Buton on trent, Heartlands and Good Hope) in the last 12 months with various issues and the "run down and dilapidated, skint and broken" NHS has been brilliant, maybe we found another NHS in a parallel universe?


Good to hear, but how will you feel when its gone?

By *Dr Kailash Chand OBE* http://www.tribunemagazine.org/2015/05/we-must-stand-defend-and-save-our-nhs/

_*We must stand, defend and save our NHS*
*Written By:Kailash Chand
Published: May 3, 2015 Last modified: April 29, 2015*

The National Health Service has never been in a more dangerous position than it is right now. This general election is like no other: it will decide whether the NHS will survive or perish. David Cameron has a proven track record of saying untruths about the NHS. Who could forget: "We'll cut the budget deficit, not the NHS", "No more top down reorganisations of the NHS" or "The NHS is safe in our hands"? All three of these pre-election statements have been shown up for what they are. In this election too, he continues to mislead the British public by announcing a funding commitment of £8 billion that he knows he hasn't the ability to honour.

Cameron's reorganisation has already corroded the "National" in the health service. The Health and Social Care Act was a Trojan horse for competition and privatisation. NHS funding has been cut by £20 billion. Within months of gaining power in 2010, the Tories launched the biggest top-down reorganisation in the entire history of the NHS; and the NHS has been carved wide open for privatisation. Anyone with the slightest familiarity with the NHS knows that things have got a lot worse under the coalition. When the Tories came to power in 2010 public satisfaction with the NHS was at an all-time high. Now on the eve of next general election, public satisfaction has plummeted to an all time low.

It's just a pity it's taken five years, 30,000 jobs and £3 billion to realise how disastrous the coalition has been for the NHS. The NHS reorganisation knocked the health service to the floor, depleted its reserves, and it has been followed by a brutal campaign of running it down. In the past two years, £11 billion worth of our NHS has been put up for sale, while 35,000 staff have been axed, including 5,600 nurses. A significant number of our 600 ambulance stations are earmarked for closure. One-third of NHS walk-in centres have been closed and 10 per cent of accident and emergency units have been shut. Waiting lists for operations are at their longest in years as hospitals are consumed by the crisis in A&E. The Nuffield Trust recently looked at performance in the last Parliament against six targets, covering A&E, operations, cancer and diagnostic tests. The report concluded that, the poorest performing hospitals had been getting worse on most measures for a while. But, worryingly, it said, more recently performance had also started to decline in the top 10 per cent of hospitals, particularly in terms of A&E, hospital operations and, to a lesser extent, hospital appointments.

In many ways, the damage has been done by the toxic Health and Social Care Act of 2012. and in this I have to say the Liberal Democrats are equally culpable. Coupled with the stranglehold of austerity, they have jointly put the NHS in many parts of England into "special measures". This is a term used for failing hospitals, mostly because of financial failures. True, there has been a focus on patient safety but this was inevitable with the Mid-Staffs scandal because all politicians would have had to address the concerns of the public, whatever their colours

The public must be told the motives for such wholesale changes to the NHS, especially the obsessive privatisation agenda. Alarmingly, more than 70 Government MPs in the last Parliament who voted for the Health and Social Care Act have past or present links to private healthcare. The Conservative Party has accepted millions of pounds of donations from private health-care firms that, unlike NHS organisations, lack transparency: they refuse to comply with the Freedom of Information Act on the pretence of "commercial confidentiality". Private firms can walk away from their responsibilities to patients on the basis of profits for their shareholders - as Circle, Blue Cross and Virgin have already done. In the past three years, NHS contracts worth billions of pounds have been opened up to the private sector. Three successive studies have found that 33 per cent, 56 per cent and 70 per cent of contracts were being won by the private sector. The NHS budget cannot afford the 5 per cent - 10 per cent profit margins that private firms want for providing services. We cannot see how the voter, taxpayer, or patient can possibly benefit from such an arrangement.
Accelerated privatisation is not the only concern. Ill-thought, expensive reorganisations and real cuts to spending have worsened the services that doctors and nurses can offer. Under the coalition, 66 NHS wards have been earmarked for closure, 71 NHS walk-in centres have been closed or downgraded and 60 ambulance stations have been closed. The core infrastructure of the NHS is being eroded, with the loss of more than 9,500 NHS beds. That means cutting NHS capacity by 2.8 million bed-days each year.

The health "reforms" have damaged clinical services. More than four million patients have had to wait over four hours for care in A&E departments, the highest level for 12 years. The number of patients waiting for operations reached a 6-year high, over 3 million people. All this is in spite of 60 areas of England admit to having to cut costs by rationing NHS treatments and introducing eligibility criteria. If hospitals are struggling, general practice is in no better shape. Real-term GP funding has declined £987 million and the number of unfilled GP vacancies has quadrupled. Morale in the NHS family is at an all-time low. This is hardly surprising:. four times as many staff say they suffer increased work stress, and physical assaults on NHS staff have increased by 20 per cent since 2010. And twice as many staff report suffering bullying at work. Nurses' pay has suffered real-terms cuts for four years and staff have been forced to accept a major downgrading of their pension benefits. In the social care sector we have seen low pay exacerbated by a rapid rise in the use of zero-hours contracts.
This is your NHS. You own it and you pay for it. We have been proud of the care provided from cradle to grave. But your NHS is being torn from the caring hands that have so carefully cherished it for decades. Your NHS is being placed in the hands of accountants and businessmen who make financially driven decisions on whom profitable future contracts should be awarded to.

The coalition said that clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) "would place GPs in charge of commissioning". But today less than one-third of CCG board members are GPs. Commissioning support units, which provide vital advice to CCGs, are in disarray and are themselves under threat of privatisation. The NHS has already been seriously damaged by the Conservative-led Government. If this continues, England will have a completely different healthcare system in five years' time - "NHS" in name alone. Things will be much worse in terms of access, equity, health outcomes and cost. But only if we continue to tolerate the ideological policies of commercialisation and privatisation in healthcare. The NHS will just be a logo; a once-cherished institution reduced from being the main provider of health services in England, with one of the biggest workforces in the world, to an increasingly fragmented, increasingly privatised service. Fewer treatments will be available as cuts start to bite, with wealthier people able to "top up" treatments. The poor, the old and the weak will be routinely disadvantaged.

Over the past four years, the NHS has already suffered many debilitating effects of the David Cameron and Andrew Lansley fiasco. Their disastrous reorganisation has distracted resources and attention away from front-line challenges. Today's wounded NHS is now scarcely able to make the changes it needs to make. Because today's NHS is on the wrong path, a fast track to fragmentation and marketisation.

Your NHS is not safe with another Conservative-led government. This election will give voters a clear choice: a public, integrated NHS or a health market under David Cameron. We rolled over while the NHS was attacked. Now we must stand, defend and save our NHS.

_


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I havent time to read, let alone ingest all the hype....

Vote UKIP


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

He's a Labour supporter, what do you expect him to say?


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

And...... for those who value women's rights - sold down the river for a few votes!

*Senior Labour politicians attended a rally where Asian men and women were apparently separated along gender lines. 
UK Independence Party leader Nigel Farage said the event, which was attended by Liam Byrne and Tom Watson, was rejecting "a century and more of advancement for women's rights". *
*http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11581329/Senior-Labour-politicians-Liam-Byrne-and-Tom-Watson-attend-segregated-Muslim-rally.html*


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Spellweaver said:


> Well, there was a program on the local radio station when I was driving to work the other day - they were interviewing young people and asking who they would vote for. Their lack of knowledge was appalling, and was topped only by their indifference to the whole "politics" thing. Most of them said different versions of, "well, it's all old folks, nothing to do with young people, is it?" I'm guessing that such people would be more likely to listen to a celebrity than a politician -* so If someone like Russell Brand can make them realise that politics has everything to do with them, then it can only be good, can't it*?


Not if he is actually telling them how to vote, no I don't think so. Looking back to when I was a teenager I was't interested in politics either, I don't think most are, they have more important things to worry about. I think we all get around to it eventually but in our own good time not when some self opinionated lovey off the tele tells us to.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Ang2 said:


> And...... for those who value women's rights - sold down the river for a few votes!
> 
> *Senior Labour politicians attended a rally where Asian men and women were apparently separated along gender lines.
> UK Independence Party leader Nigel Farage said the event, which was attended by Liam Byrne and Tom Watson, was rejecting "a century and more of advancement for women's rights". *
> *http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11581329/Senior-Labour-politicians-Liam-Byrne-and-Tom-Watson-attend-segregated-Muslim-rally.html*


If you read the piece it is based upon UKIP anti-Muslim stirring by the dreadful NF (Sorry! Nigel Farage )


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

silvi said:


> If you read the piece it is based upon UKIP anti-Muslim stirring by the dreadful NF (Sorry! Nigel Farage )


So Nigel Farage segregated them? I see!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> I havent time to read, let alone ingest all the hype....
> 
> Vote UKIP


Well your first sentence certainly explains your second sentence 

And there you have it folks - an insight into how the average UKIP voter thinks! Don't bother your tiny little brain with all those "issue" thingies everybody else seems to think are important - just vote UKIP!


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Ang2 said:


> So Nigel Farage segregated them? I see!


No. 
He seized the opportunity not only to have a go at Labour but, more importantly for NF, he was able to push the Islamophobia button too.

Do you really think that NF cares about women's rights?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

You can hardly blame Labour for a religious issue. The're are areas of the country with heavy Muslim presence so they will come into contact with Muslim traditions.

UKIP want to scrap equality bills, including gender discrimination with regards to employment and pay. Also cuts to things like maternity pay... Yeah he's a real champion for women's rights...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> He's a Labour supporter, what do you expect him to say?


Hes a highly respected doctor explaining exactly what the coalition are doing. And there are loads of other NHS drs trying to raise awareness of the threat. This government passed the Health & Social Care Act so they ramp up privatisation - close hospitals & A&E's . They are remodeling our NHS on the enormously inefficient American health care system. Our NHS was the most efficient in the world, where only 6% of the total budget went on admin costs. In America 1 in 5 people go without health care, two thirds of all bankruptcies are down to health care bills. Its is the American companies in the American health insurance industry putting pressure to remodel our NHS along US lines. And just look how many Tory MPs are linked to these companies! - i think its 71!


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

silvi said:


> No.
> He seized the opportunity not only to have a go at Labour but, more importantly for NF, he was able to push the Islamophobia button too.
> 
> Do you really think that NF cares about women's rights?


Several newspapers SEIZED the opportunity, including the Telegraph. They asked several people for their comments and views, including Nigel Farage! Most were outraged by this, but of course, people like you see it as an opportunity to pull the race card! Muslim traditions? Do you mean beheadings and throwing people off buildings for being homosexual?

But don't worry. If Labour ever get in, they plan to introduce a new law to make Islamaphobia illegal. So, what happened in Rochdale and other parts of the country, can more easily be brushed under the carpet, as it will be against the law to even speak of it.


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

You have to fight with all you have to keep the precious NHS. It is the absolute best thing about the UK and you are so lucky to have it. This is how the health system works over here: Whether you're self-employed like I am or employed by someone else, you have to pay income tax which is far far higher than in the UK. On top of that, you have to pay something that is somewhat similar to national insurance, which goes towards your pension (arf arf) and your health care (arf arf arf). You can visit the doctor for free, but unlike in the UK where you see a GP who knows about everything and works all day, here, they work half a day or more each week in a hospital, because they're specialists, so you can never get to see them. My family doctor is actually a cardiologist, so unless I have to see him about my ticker (which so far I haven't), he'll give me a cursory once-over and ship me off to someone else; a specialist in the field of my ailment, that you have to wait months to see and then pay for. So, when I had tennis elbow a couple of years back, the doctor prescribed me anti-inflammatories and sent me off for an x-ray and a follow-up "physiotherapy" session. I had to pay for the x-ray, and the "physiotherapy" session consisted of this guy asking me if it hurt when I extended my arm with my hand up, to which I replied, "yes", then he asked me if it hurt with my hand down, "yes" again. To which he answered, "Okay, you have tennis elbow, buy one of these braces," and sent me off with information about some quack treatment that I'd have to pay a further €200 for if I fancied it. I was in and out of his office in 4 minutes and €40 lighter in pocket. My tennis elbow went away on its own after a year.
Fast forward to a few months ago. I have developed pain in my lower back, but slightly offset to the left. It would seem to be soft tissue... Off I went to the doctor and he sent me for an x-ray and a follow-up "physio" appointment. I again had to pay for the x-ray, and this time the "physio" session consisted of sitting in front of a woman who called herself "Doctor" and was supposedly a qualified physiotherapist, she was dripping with jewellery, decked out in her white coat as they always are here, like a badge of honour, and oozed "I couldn't care less" attitude. At least she looked at my back, couldn't see anything wrong on the x-ray, so sent me away with a prescription for anti-inflammatories and a list of quack treatments that would cost me a further €200. She cost me €40. She said she'd see me in 3 months. In the meantime, after my course of anti-inflammatories, my back's just as bad. I don't have the energy to go through it all again, spending left, right and centre to see people who are totally lacking in ethics and integrity. I live in Emilia Romagna which has the best healthcare in the whole of Italy...
If the British voters don't vote Labour, the above scenario and worse will certainly be heading in the direction of the UK. I live in fear of becoming ill here. By the time you've by-passsed the bureaucracy and sheer dishonesty, you've already got one foot in the grave. Do not trust the Tories. They do NOT care about you.


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> Several newspapers SEIZED the opportunity, including the Telegraph. They asked several people for the comments and views, including Nigel Farage! Most were outraged by this, but of course, people like you see it as an opportunity to pull the race card!* Muslim traditions*? Do you mean beheadings and throwing people off buildings for being homosexual?
> 
> But don't worry. If Labour ever get in, they plan to introduce a new law to make Islamaphobia illegal. So, what happened in Rochdale and other parts of the country, can more easily be brushed under the carpet, as it will be against the law to even speak of it.


They're not Muslim traditions, they're what fanatic Islamists do. They are not the same. Muslim does not equal Islamist.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

All comes under Sharia Law, which two thirds of muslims would like to see implemented in the UK.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Misi said:


> It is the absolute best thing about the UK


Nah. That'd be fish n' chips.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ang2 said:


> All comes under Sharia Law, which two thirds of muslims would like to see implemented in the UK.


Wow you must have a busy life considering you know ALL the Muslim followers in the UK, AND you know their views on Sharia Law


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> Wow you must have a busy life considering you know ALL the Muslim followers in the UK, AND you know their views on Sharia Law


There have been many surveys/polls!


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Ang2 said:


> There have been many surveys/polls!


 Most of which put the number at between 30 and 40 percent in the UK.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ang2 said:


> There have been many surveys/polls!


Oh ok...that changes everything


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Misi said:


> You have to fight with all you have to keep the precious NHS. It is the absolute best thing about the UK and you are so lucky to have it. This is how the health system works over here: Whether you're self-employed like I am or employed by someone else, you have to pay income tax which is far far higher than in the UK. On top of that, you have to pay something that is somewhat similar to national insurance, which goes towards your pension (arf arf) and your health care (arf arf arf). You can visit the doctor for free, but unlike in the UK where you see a GP who knows about everything and works all day, here, they work half a day or more each week in a hospital, because they're specialists, so you can never get to see them. My family doctor is actually a cardiologist, so unless I have to see him about my ticker (which so far I haven't), he'll give me a cursory once-over and ship me off to someone else; a specialist in the field of my ailment, that you have to wait months to see and then pay for. So, when I had tennis elbow a couple of years back, the doctor prescribed me anti-inflammatories and sent me off for an x-ray and a follow-up "physiotherapy" session. I had to pay for the x-ray, and the "physiotherapy" session consisted of this guy asking me if it hurt when I extended my arm with my hand up, to which I replied, "yes", then he asked me if it hurt with my hand down, "yes" again. To which he answered, "Okay, you have tennis elbow, buy one of these braces," and sent me off with information about some quack treatment that I'd have to pay a further €200 for if I fancied it. I was in and out of his office in 4 minutes and €40 lighter in pocket. My tennis elbow went away on its own after a year.
> Fast forward to a few months ago. I have developed pain in my lower back, but slightly offset to the left. It would seem to be soft tissue... Off I went to the doctor and he sent me for an x-ray and a follow-up "physio" appointment. I again had to pay for the x-ray, and this time the "physio" session consisted of sitting in front of a woman who called herself "Doctor" and was supposedly a qualified physiotherapist, she was dripping with jewellery, decked out in her white coat as they always are here, like a badge of honour, and oozed "I couldn't care less" attitude. At least she looked at my back, couldn't see anything wrong on the x-ray, so sent me away with a prescription for anti-inflammatories and a list of quack treatments that would cost me a further €200. She cost me €40. She said she'd see me in 3 months. In the meantime, after my course of anti-inflammatories, my back's just as bad. I don't have the energy to go through it all again, spending left, right and centre to see people who are totally lacking in ethics and integrity. I live in Emilia Romagna which has the best healthcare in the whole of Italy...
> If the British voters don't vote Labour, the above scenario and worse will certainly be heading in the direction of the UK. I live in fear of becoming ill here. By the time you've by-passsed the bureaucracy and sheer dishonesty, you've already got one foot in the grave. Do not trust the Tories. They do NOT care about you.


Thank you for sharing Misi, I'm really sorry you've had to suffer like this xx. I fear far too many over here take our NHS for granted, I wonder how many will lament voting for the Conservatives or UKIP when our NHS is gone? Probably only when it affects them or a loved one. I blame the mainstream media as much as the government for what has happened. If the media had given as much exposure to the NHS as it does to immigration & people on welfare, if it had reported the facts & held politicians to account then we might have stopped its demolition already. . Instead it has been complicit in governments deception x

Another letter of warning from an American.


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

Ang2 said:


> Several newspapers SEIZED the opportunity, including the Telegraph. They asked several people for their comments and views, including Nigel Farage! Most were outraged by this, but of course, people like you see it as an opportunity to pull the race card! Muslim traditions? Do you mean beheadings and throwing people off buildings for being homosexual?
> 
> But don't worry. If Labour ever get in, they plan to introduce a new law to make Islamaphobia illegal. So, what happened in Rochdale and other parts of the country, can more easily be brushed under the carpet, as it will be against the law to even speak of it.


Well I for one am shocked and appalled by this! I have spent many years being friends and socialising with Muslims and not once have they invited me to one of their Beheading and Throwing Gays off Buildings shindigs :Bawling It's discrimination I tells ya!

As for your second paragraph, it's not like the Tories have a sparkly clean record when it comes to dealing with paedophile rings, is it?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Mulish said:


> Well I for one am shocked and appalled by this! I have spent many years being friends and socialising with Muslims and not once have they invited me to one of their Beheading and Throwing Gays off Buildings shindigs :Bawling It's discrimination I tells ya!


Obviously not proper muslims, its almost as if you are using the dreaded concept of reason! Dont you_ read _Mail?!?

All muslims are terrorists.

All unemployed people are scroungers

All disabled people are faking it (or not trying hard enough)

All foreign people are here for the NHS

All single mums did it for a free house.

All fat people are lazy.

The royals are great.

All Bull breeds are killers

You will almost certainly _die _if you go to an NHS hospital because *reason*

There is a quick rundown of the next 12months headlines.

Oh I forgot : [insert random dietry item] can help reduce cancer.


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> Obviously not proper muslims, its almost as if you are using the dreaded concept of reason! Dont you_ read _Mail?!?
> 
> All muslims are terrorists.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I only read your first line and then decided I couldn't be bovvered to wade through the rest of the information you'd provided before making a decision.

Can I vote UKIP now?

(I think I did that right but I haven't got a shouty tabloid headline to refer to  )


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> In America 1 in 5 people go without health care, two thirds of all bankruptcies are down to health care bills.


Once again ignoring the fact that labour has been responsible for the privatisation of parts of the NHS when they were advised at the time it wasn't a good idea and would put the health trust concerned in debt for years...

We have "private" health in Germany. It's not like the US system. Think it is fair to say I would rather be ill in Germany than in the UK and I would feel the same even if unemployed. Maybe some of that is due to the fact that health insurance is linked to income not a standard amount. The rich pay more, not for better treatment (although they can pay extra on top for things like individual rooms) but simply as they can afford to, much like taxes but with no loopholes that I am aware of. So why not compare the NHS with the best of the "private" health services instead of one of the worst?


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

If Russell Brand is endorsing the Labour party, you know its time to vote for someone else.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Once again ignoring the fact that labour has been responsible for the privatisation of parts of the NHS when they were advised at the time it wasn't a good idea and would put the health trust concerned in debt for years...
> 
> We have "private" health in Germany. It's not like the US system. Think it is fair to say I would rather be ill in Germany than in the UK and I would feel the same even if unemployed. Maybe some of that is due to the fact that health insurance is linked to income not a standard amount. The rich pay more, not for better treatment (although they can pay extra on top for things like individual rooms) but simply as they can afford to, much like taxes but with no loopholes that I am aware of. So why not compare the NHS with the best of the "private" health services instead of one of the worst?


I'm not ignoring anything. I have said plenty of times labour have been [email protected], but they're our only hope of saving it. They will reverse the Health & welfare act & exempt the NHS from TTIP - the tories wont. Americanisation is happening, if you don't believe me watch this -


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Ang2 said:


> Several newspapers SEIZED the opportunity, including the Telegraph. They asked several people for their comments and views, including Nigel Farage! Most were outraged by this....


Of course the Tory press seized the opportunity. That is what they do. And of course the people they spoke to were outraged by this, as I'm sure they picked the people they interviewed very carefully (and discarded other less 'outraged' comments). 



Ang2 said:


> ....but of course, *people like you* see it as an opportunity to pull the race card!


What do you mean by the bit in bold?

Perhaps you would like to explain that remark further before I answer any more of your posts.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> And...... for those who value women's rights - sold down the river for a few votes!
> 
> *Senior Labour politicians attended a rally where Asian men and women were apparently separated along gender lines.
> UK Independence Party leader Nigel Farage said the event, which was attended by Liam Byrne and Tom Watson, was rejecting "a century and more of advancement for women's rights". *
> *http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11581329/Senior-Labour-politicians-Liam-Byrne-and-Tom-Watson-attend-segregated-Muslim-rally.html*


And if you go to a Synagogue (which I have done), then the congregations there are also gender segragated - men on one side, women on the other.

Slightly different from a mosque, admittedly, in that the women are not behind a screen blocked from view of the men or anything else that infers lower status, so I suppose that is why it doesn't attract the outrage of the equal rights mob.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Noushka - why are you so convinced Labour are any good for the NHS? Who was in charge of the dire situation in Stafford, Labour. Which party is control of the NHS in Wales, Labour.

Plus remember the note "“Dear Chief Secretary,” the Labour Treasury minister had written to his successor, “I’m afraid there is no money". Whatever their supposed ideals are once they bankrupt the country again (as they do every time they hold power) the NHS will suffer


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

DoodlesRule said:


> Noushka - why are you so convinced Labour are any good for the NHS? Who was in charge of the dire situation in Stafford, Labour. Which party is control of the NHS in Wales, Labour.
> 
> Plus remember the note ""Dear Chief Secretary," the Labour Treasury minister had written to his successor, "I'm afraid there is no money". Whatever their supposed ideals are once they bankrupt the country again (as they do every time they hold power) the NHS will suffer


I know this question was for Noushka, but as I feel the same way, I will answer as well .

I think we both agree that, in the past, Labour have made mistakes with the NHS, but those were very different times. No excuses though.

But Labour are the party of the NHS and they are prepared to admit their past mistakes (which you have to admit, most parties would not do).
A great deal of this Labour Party's campaign is based around saving the NHS and on listening to those 'on the ground' . I do believe that they will do their utmost if in power to save it.

As to the 'bankruptcy' claims directed at Labour from the other parties, Labour did not bankrupt the country the last time around and, I would probably say the same if the Lib Dems had been in power at the time (not so sure about the Tories though ).
We faced a world-wide recession which had been building since the end of WW2, if not from before that and which had been encouraged by the economic strategies of the 1980s.

Yes, borrowing had been the currency for all governments since WW2 (including the Tories) as this was seen as the only way the country could survive. Borrowing was (and is) also a world-wide economic strategy encouraged by the financial institutions, and thus a small proportion of the world's population are getting richer while the vast majority get poorer.

None of that is Labour's fault. If Labour is at fault here, it is because they haven't challenged it enough.

And, in fact, had any country's government tried to pull away from the strategy of constant borrowing and negotiating interest paid, they would have suffered the consequences.

Governments have been forced to work with what is available.

Some governments have used this to help the NHS and the Welfare State, whilst others have _pretended_ not to use this strategy and have made cuts instead, whilst still lining the pockets of the wealthy few.

Neither 'side' has produced a workable alternative (as evidenced by the Tories putting us more in debt than when they took power), but at least one 'side' has tried to help ordinary people.

The 'bankruptcy' claims against a future Labour Government alone are scare tactics. Because, any government working within the current economic system is just as likely to fail. The difference is that one will try to help the majority, while the other will try to save the wealthy minority.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> Noushka - why are you so convinced Labour are any good for the NHS? Who was in charge of the dire situation in Stafford, Labour. Which party is control of the NHS in Wales, Labour.
> 
> Plus remember the note ""Dear Chief Secretary," the Labour Treasury minister had written to his successor, "I'm afraid there is no money". Whatever their supposed ideals are once they bankrupt the country again (as they do every time they hold power) the NHS will suffer


I know under labour things have been far from perfect but studies found it was one of the fairest, most efficient & cost effective health services in the world - http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services

When labour left government it was the highest ever for patient satisfaction - now its the lowest ever. The NHA Party, well respected people in the medical profession are all urging the public not to vote Conservative or the NHS is finished forever. If you're on twitter i urge you to go on & check out what the mainstream media arent telling us - these memes are all being shared by the the NHA Party & Doctors. - http://www.theguardian.com/society/...sess-governments-record-on-nhs-letter-in-full


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Mulish said:


> As for your second paragraph, it's not like the Tories have a sparkly clean record when it comes to dealing with paedophile rings, is it?


No, an Lord Jenner was labour, now cant be charged cos he has dementia BUT he can still sit in the House of Lords (and vote) and jumped ship quick when he thought maybe a compo case could be heading his way? will Milly Band chase him up?

something stinks

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4429768.ece


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Think it is fair to say I would rather be ill in Germany than in the UK_
So would I by a long way. We're constantly being told we have the best healthcare system in the world and we believe it - until we live elsewhere and realise we've been brainwashed.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

havoc said:


> _Think it is fair to say I would rather be ill in Germany than in the UK_
> So would I by a long way. We're constantly being told we have the best healthcare system in the world and we believe it - until we live elsewhere and realise we've been brainwashed.


I've lived elsewhere - in Spain - and I've used the Spanish NHS, as have my daughters.

Spain has excellent medical facilities and provides top class doctors and surgeons. I would have no hesitation about having an operation under their free service.
However, their follow-up care is often non-existent as the culture relies upon families to provide care and, like many things in Spain, bureaucracy causes heaps of problems and delays at local level (you may think that bureaucracy is bad in the UK, but you have seen nothing like it is in Spain!).

I have a friend who lived in the Czech Republic for a while. She says that their free healthcare system is okay.... but in order to make ends meet, many cheaper products are used, sometimes to the detriment of surgery. And their dentistry (usually private) is as cheap as chips....but crowns often break within a short time and fillings are not very robust.

I have another friend who lives in France. She says that the French health care system is very good overall.... but some regions are filled with out-of-date hospitals and a serious shortage of staff and equipment.

And so on.....

I don't think that any of us are saying that the British NHS is perfect. We all know that improvements can and should be made. After all,those improvements are key points in this election.

We should expect a high-quality NHS, especially when we know that money which could be spent on improvements is instead lining some people's pockets.

But just because improvements need to be made is not an excuse to let our NHS be driven into the ground.


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