# undocked tails - doesn't it seem weird?



## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Ok i am all for why the docking laws came into effect, don't get me wrong. But don't you guys find it weird to see breeds which used to have their tails docked, now with tails? 

for example yesterday i saw a rottie, a very cute adorable rottie, and it had a tail and i at first wasn't sure if that was a rottie but when i got a closer look it was def a rottie and the owner of the dog confirmed it. It just seems weird now to see all these dogs ie rottweilers, boxers, cocker spaniels with tails! But its still very nice to see these beautiful dogs, with or without their tails


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

It does sometimes make you do a double take 
I love seeing all the waggy tails now


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I think they look gorgeous with tails. I love Ollie with his tail, and I've seen rotties and boxers with tails, and they look so much better. It's great for dogs to see what the tail of the other dog is saying to them. I wouldn't get an undocked dog now. When we were looking for a cocker spaniel, we were specially looking for undocked puppies and it was hard work, but we found him. Nowadays, it's slightly easier because it was a few years ago that it became illegal.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2010)

I don't find it weird.
I think that docking a dog for no good reason was a barbaric mutilation.
I love to see them as they should be, using their tails to communicate their pleasure is one of the nicest doggy traits


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2010)

I dont find it wierd either! I love dogs with big waggy tails!

I actually look twice now if i see a young pet (not working) dog with docked tails!


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I love seeing them with tails ! 
It's great at shows when you see all the puppies in the ring with their waggy tails . Too cutee ! Nicole xx


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I LOVE it....think it's great and it's one of the best things that passed for these dogs.....taking away their tails....it's like taking away our smiles...so I'm soooo pleased they get to keep them now....every time I see one of these pooches with a tail I have a grin from ear to ear


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## rachy86xx (Sep 24, 2009)

yeah it is weird, but nice at the same time! my terrier has a docked tail, but i didn't specifically go out looking for a dog with a docked tail - i didn't realise it was actually illegal at the time, and was quite horrified when i found out at the vets. but i wouldn't change him for the world, hes such a wiggly waggy dog he has plenty of waggy ways to express his emotions, even without a full tail  its surprising how many puppies are available with docked tails mind. 

I do think rotty look odd with a full tail, but its partly as i'm so used to seeimg them docked. im sure in a few years when its a lot more common then we'll be having double takes at seeing them with docked tails instead!


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## houndies (Aug 8, 2008)

I think it's about time we saw more tailage. So many of them have such lovely ones. Like schnauzers all curly and fluffy. What is weird when you go to places where they still crop ears - they look terrible (IMO).


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i think they look so stunning with their tails... and i dont find it weird at all


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Savahl said:


> I dont find it wierd either! I love dogs with big waggy tails!
> 
> I actually look twice now if i see a young pet (not working) dog with docked tails!


Im like that. We have a far few JRT's in my area, and ive seen quite a few youngsters that have been docked (illegally). They seem to really stand out.

Im glad SBT's have never been a docked breed. Its interesting to see how much Oscar uses his tail for balance.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

rachy86xx said:


> I do think rotty look odd with a full tail, but its partly as i'm so used to seeimg them docked. im sure in a few years when its a lot more common then we'll be having double takes at seeing them with docked tails instead!


exactly. i mean like, my whole life i've seen these dogs and i've also owned rotties and i had a cocker spaniel, in the past and other breeds which HAD their tails docked. I think thats why i find it weird.

and yes i do agree its beautiful to see them with their tails.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Find it weirder the poor creatures not having tails. Sadly my little JRT has nothing whatsoever to shake cos he was bred to work so his was chopped off at the bum..literally!!  My friend has boxers and they look stunning with their tails!!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I've never liked docked tails and I prefer the look of RTW's with tails now. The only problem with the previously docked breeds is that the breeders haven't been concerned with breeding nice tails but I guess that will improve in time.


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## Bratpack (Jan 27, 2010)

I love seeing dogs like Dobes and Boxers with tails. It annoys me unreasonably to see some badly bred, not even full bred but crossed, dogs like rottis with amateurishly docked tails. Some people clearly think it's a "selling point" to try to make them look like they used to <sheesh>:nonod:
I walked a gorgeous young rotti at the rescue, whose tail had been cut at around 4 inches from her rump, and she just looked wrong! (She still managed to wag her stump enthusiastically mind.. )


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## rachy86xx (Sep 24, 2009)

ad_1980 said:


> exactly. i mean like, my whole life i've seen these dogs and i've also owned rotties and i had a cocker spaniel, in the past and other breeds which HAD their tails docked. I think thats why i find it weird.
> 
> and yes i do agree its beautiful to see them with their tails.


Yeah i think its just that we have come to expect them to look a certain way that's all.



JSR said:


> Find it weirder the poor creatures not having tails. Sadly my little JRT has nothing whatsoever to shake cos he was bred to work so his was chopped off at the bum..literally!!  My friend has boxers and they look stunning with their tails!!


aw that's cruel. I was always led to believe that terriers have docked tails as they can then be pulled out of holes etc by their stump -I've never seen a dog with their tail completely chopped off, poor thing!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

rachy86xx said:


> aw that's cruel. I was always led to believe that terriers have docked tails as they can then be pulled out of holes etc by their stump -I've never seen a dog with their tail completely chopped off, poor thing!


at work, I saw a cocker spaniel that had no tail whatsoever, it had been chopped off at the base, and there was just a bit of skin there instead of bone.


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## rachy86xx (Sep 24, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> at work, I saw a cocker spaniel that had no tail whatsoever, it had been chopped off at the base, and there was just a bit of skin there instead of bone.


aww, that's really mean. poor dog - at least leave them with something to wag!

i can't imagine what my dog would look like with a full tail, I've grown to quite like his stump as he waggs it furiously when he's happy lol. I definately wouldn't get another puppy with a docked tail though as unless they are working then there's no reason to cut them off. I was quite young and naive when we got Decks, but as they say you learn from your mistakes....


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I have never thought it was 'weird' to see a dog as nature intended, with it's tail.  It was high time that chopping off of tails was done away with in this country anyway and I am very glad it was.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

rachy86xx said:


> aw that's cruel. I was always led to believe that terriers have docked tails as they can then be pulled out of holes etc by their stump -I've never seen a dog with their tail completely chopped off, poor thing!


That's what I thought! You can't really see very well but this is the only picture I've got of his back end!! It's horrible but knowing where he came from I'm not surprised, I doubt very much it was done legally as he's only 2 years old so I suspect it was chopped off by the gameskeeper.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I love love love seeing them all with tails!!! I completely agree with Rona, unless there was a reason it was barbaric mutilation.

Thankfully now most dogs can be dogs without having bits cut off to please humans!

I also think Nonnie raised a good point........saying how Oscar's tail helps him balance.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

whilst I always thought it cruel for dogs tails to be docked, I do know what you mean, as I grew up with a couple of rotties...

...I think maybe because I grew up with them for so many years, it was then a bit of a double take when I saw one with a tail... not because it was weird, but just because I wasn't used to seeing them...I think thats prob what you meant anyway?

it is great that they cant be docked now...i always remember watching one of mine when he wagged his non-existent tail and the little stump would move backwards and forwards and i was sad that he didnt have a proper tail to wag


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nope I adore the tails especially a rottie tail!! Saw one yesterday and he was absolutely gorgeous :001_tt1:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I see plenty of puppies with docked tails - one recently at the vets was taken there by the breeder who presumably had docked the tail. I can't remember what breed it was but it wasn't a working breed. I wonder how they got away with that - and how they had the nerve to take a docked puppy into the vets.

Liz


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## rachy86xx (Sep 24, 2009)

JSR said:


> That's what I thought! You can't really see very well but this is the only picture I've got of his back end!! It's horrible but knowing where he came from I'm not surprised, I doubt very much it was done legally as he's only 2 years old so I suspect it was chopped off by the gameskeeper.


aww poor little guy. does his whole bum wiggle when he's happy? Decks' does that - he's a very waggy dog anyway, but when hes really happy (like when he sees my dad lol) he wiggles his bum aswell aswagging his stump lol.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

rachy86xx said:


> aww poor little guy. does his whole bum wiggle when he's happy? Decks' does that - he's a very waggy dog anyway, but when hes really happy (like when he sees my dad lol) he wiggles his bum aswell aswagging his stump lol.


His whole body wiggles!!! He's got ants in his pants, doesn't keep still and always wanting to be center of attention!!


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Until recently I had only ever seen rotties, boxers and schnauzers with docked tails so yes, I know what you mean. They don't look like what you had become accustomed to, but it is great. I love seeing a dog express themselves with a big wagging tail. One of mine wags his like a helicopter- it must be a great feeling!


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

lizward said:


> I see plenty of puppies with docked tails - one recently at the vets was taken there by the breeder who presumably had docked the tail. I can't remember what breed it was but it wasn't a working breed. I wonder how they got away with that - and how they had the nerve to take a docked puppy into the vets.
> 
> Liz


no way!! thats terrible


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## rachy86xx (Sep 24, 2009)

JSR said:


> His whole body wiggles!!! He's got ants in his pants, doesn't keep still and always wanting to be center of attention!!


awww cute! I love wiggly dogs lol.

Could we perhaps have a sticky with some links about docked tails? 
like maybe to this webpage:
BVA - Tail docking of dogs
and this poster:
http://www.bva-awf.org.uk/resources/posters/BVA_AWF_tail_docking_poster.pdf

Some people (like me) genuinely may not be aware its illegal, (especially if buying from a dodgy breeder) so it could be helpful to have a permanent sticky on here for those who come looking for advice before getting a dog. I remember googling about buying a puppy, but didn't read anything about docked tails.

Just a thought.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I often wonder how much the lack of a tail affects a dogs ability to communicate with others.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

i have 3 dogs tht are docked (2 very badly and illegally) and they all seem to wag their whole body when they are pleased and excited

i love to see dogs with their tails, i saw my first adult rottie with a tail the other week, he was gorgeous :001_tt1: :001_tt1:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

My dear departed Weimaraner, Lacey, used to lick the end of her stump a lot. It was often damp.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> I often wonder how much the lack of a tail affects a dogs ability to communicate with others.


Me too and I've always thought it must be quite a lot. Some people have also suggested that Spitz type dogs are harder to read, too.


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## Terrier Fan (Oct 20, 2008)

I love to see them with full waggy tails, as nature intended 

I have 2 jack russells both Un-docked. 
I was asked whether i wanted Sophie docked as i picked her out of the litter at less than 24hrs old, the other pups were being docked as they were going to working homes.

I struggled to find my next JRT, Tilly who is almost 4. I insisted that i did not want a docked puppy, after months of searching, we found her. She was 10wks old and the breeder had stuggled to find homes for the litter.

I have never agreed with tail docking, as the majority of the time it is done for aesthetic reasons and is of no benefit for the dog.


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## Ilovemydog (Feb 2, 2010)

After owning a breed that was traditionally docked and the ears cropped, and mine have never been, I find it wierd to see other dogs that are. I have Schnauzers and I can only conclude that docking and cropping has been done to rid dogs of kinked tails or what would be deemed as faulty tails, and ears cropped because of wrong earsets. This can be a problem for us breeders now, as we are having a hard time trying to breed perfect tails and ears. We do not know the history of the docked and cropped ancestry with regards to this and kinks in tails pop up in Miniatures on a frequent basis. Also, less than perfect ears.

Here is a picture of a Giant in the showring, with his Very long tail intact. Savali Level Hi Fi was owned by me and now is living in England, went to Crufts last year! 









He floats on air, at the right speed in the showring, but his tail is very long, he can actually wag it in two places. 80% of the tail from the base to the tip would wag from side to side, but the top 20% would wag in contrast. It was very funny to see. He could also have his tail mostly erect in a happy position but softly the top would wag on its own, especially when he was being mellow and nice.

I still have a bitch with a beautiful tail, my Afrika, here she is: 









The only reason to justify docking a tail, in my mind, would be after an injury. These do happen and I know of a dog that wagged his tail so furiously that he would splatter his owners walls with blood on a regular basis. He could not contain his wagging, and the pain simply did not register enough to stop him. After many trips to the vets and a nasty infection, the vet offered to dock the "dangerous" part of the tail, but left enough intact so the dog still had something to wag.


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

Yes my rotties tail is docked but I saw one in the vets and it looked odd :lol:


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Ilovemydog said:


> After owning a breed that was traditionally docked and the ears cropped, and mine have never been, I find it wierd to see other dogs that are. I have Schnauzers and I can only conclude that docking and cropping has been done to rid dogs of kinked tails or what would be deemed as faulty tails, and ears cropped because of wrong earsets. This can be a problem for us breeders now, as we are having a hard time trying to breed perfect tails and ears. We do not know the history of the docked and cropped ancestry with regards to this and kinks in tails pop up in Miniatures on a frequent basis. Also, less than perfect ears.
> 
> Here is a picture of a Giant in the showring, with his Very long tail intact. Savali Level Hi Fi was owned by me and now is living in England, went to Crufts last year!
> 
> ...


STUNNING!!!!!!!!! Funnily enough watched It's me or the Dog last night and she had the Giant Schnauzer who wanted to go to Crufts (well owners not the dog so much!) and I thought what a beautiful dog shame out his tail!!! And there you go your's look 100 times better!!!


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## sunshine80 (Jan 25, 2010)

I have a cocker spaniel that is not docked and I would not have him any other way - he is always wagging his tail (and his body). He was actually the first cocker I had seen that had a tail so it grow on me. It does seem a bit strange though my brother has an older cocker with a docked tail. Sonny's looks better now he is at his sruffy stage though (he is eight months old). I saw a rotti with a whole tail a few weeks ago and although it looked lovely it does seem a bit strange and I had to double take.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I love Rottie tails, they are much fatter then I imagine they should be though.
Dobermans look great with tails too but I imagine they hurt like crazy if you get bashed by one in full wag!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I'll be glad when ear cropping is illegal here. It's very hard to find a vet now who will do it. Tails, I think most breeds look better with a tail and except for injuries they should be left alone. Although it is hard to get used to some breeds with a tail thats just conditioning on our part...Jill


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## houndies (Aug 8, 2008)

Does anyone know why breeds were docked in the first place? I know different breeds were done for different reasons like being damaged working in the field, or were believed to have vulnerable whip tails, with guarding dogs I've heard it was to be more emotionless and their tails couldn't be grabbed (??). It seems odd since I can't think of one breed from the hound group that was ever docked and they were meant for hunting/tracking. I did hear once that dogs tails were taxed in the Uk way back when and that brought on docking???


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I love seeing them with tails it's so much better than them being mutilated at a few days old

They were docked for some sort of tax I believe although people will try all kinds of stories like oh the cows will stand on their tails or some other crap.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

I think it looks wonderful to see dogs as nature intended them to look. Although I have done a double take more than a few times.  Not on cockers but Rotties Dobs and Boxers.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

It took a while to get used to after never seeing those breeds with tails but i think they look much nicer . I can understand the argument for working dogs being docked but i don't think its necessary for the majority so was glad to see it banned. 

There are some greyhounds with docked tails after injuring them (often they have half a tail) and they can look strange at first. There was one dog at kennels that had to have his docked after a happy tail injury just wouldn't heal up because he'd bash it all the time even with a plastic tube on the end to protect it. It would look like a murder scene when i came to clean his kennel. It was for the best but i did miss his long, crazy tail.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

My friend's dalmation had to be docked because he keep damaging it. Poor thing looked awful


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Dogs are better with tails for sure.Docking/cropping is just a nicer way of saying amputating for no real good reason
But as stated, I find it weird to see the common docked breeds, such as rottis, dobes n boxers etc with their tails now... altho I do take a double look, I do like what I see.
Im amazed at how thick the fur is on a rottis tail lol I assumed it would have been more like a labradors.

I had a happy wagger for a dog as a child and he was forever getting his tail injured, from getting it trapped in a door to slicing the tip of on a radiator, he almost had it amputated, but unfortunatley he had to be put to sleep because of cancer.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

A friends daughter was once lucky enough to buy an undocked, well bred, German Shorthaired Pointer bitch. In her life, this dog was trained and worked both in the field and in agility. She never once injured her beautiful long tail. But she broke toes on two of her four paws from crashing through undergrowth and leaping down embankments! Should she have had her toes removed just in case? No, that would have been too silly for words!


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## Leah84 (Jun 22, 2009)

i really don`t like the look of docked tails so i`m glad they banned it. think it takes away from their personality and i love seeing waggy tails, makes me feel like i`m doing something right when muffin`s is smacking around going mad lol


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I actually like docked tails and think a lot of breeds look much more balanced. I have a standard and a miniature poodle that are not docked and used to have a standard that was docked. The docked one had a much more balanced look and you could imagine her doing her job of retrieving in water whereas the undocked one would become water logged and unbalanced. The miniature has a lovely tail coiled over her back so is nicely balance and looks very smart but if it got wet it would hang down and unbalance her.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Ive 2 springers and a cocker my eldest one 10yrs had a full tail the other at 18months had a docked tail and a cocker at age 5 with his docked, Ive got to say i like them either way as they arnt too short. but i can see the reasons for them being done the damage that can be done is awful and to have them amputated through injury is much worse than docked at the right age.


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## Snoof (Feb 12, 2010)

I don't find it weird. It's beautiful. THis law has been active in Norway for many years so I guess it's more natural to me. But I think any inneccessary mutilation of an animal is gross and awful. How much do a dog communicate with its tail? Alot! 

I saw a serie on TV once where a lady actually operated on her dachshound's so that they couldnt bark anymore, to prevent the neighbours being annoyed. Some people also operate on their dogs or cats' claws...and it's not illegal everywhere...its terrible. I think these people should be banned from having pets for life. Where are the animals' rights?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

For a dogs tail to be docked for no reason is horrible but i certainly agree with working dogs especially springers they should certainly be docked if they are going to be worked mine arnt worked and my eldest with the full tail has had his damaged not so bad but i can imagine when they are working fully and for a long time just how bad the tails can be damaged.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Some breeds I would have liked to own I dont like now they have tails, seems to spoil the whole outline of the dog, I dont really agree with docking but how on earth can a judge know which tail carriage is right if they never had tails before?


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

I think it is lovely to see them with their tails. Willow our OES has her full tail and it is beautiful & feathery. She is always wagging it and it looks so pretty - although I am biased!! Everyone passes comment on how strange it is to see her breed with a tail but I wouldn't have her any different.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Docked tails are weirder to me.

I had to handle 13 rescue dogs that came in for Ireland this week - including 2 docked boxers and 2 docked Rotties. (Docking is still legal there).

Being so used to undocked dogs with full tails, I found it not as easy to judge their body language... not that I look for a wagging tail on its own, but in conjunction with other body language in new, scared, frightened, potentially aggressive dogs; it is part of a missing equation not to mention the missing tail..

And when one did wag its stump, I almost missed it....


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## ADA (May 30, 2009)

Just to clarify. Working dogs are only supposed to be docked by a Vet if they are intended for sale as truly working dogs and not pets. VETERINARY certiificaton of exemption should follow the pup into new ownership and the pup must be microchipped with certification and confirmation that it is the same puppy docked under the exemption rules. Working dogs are not necessarily those catigorised by the Kennel Club but those that work the gun in the field, police, rescue, or armed services.
seeAnti-Docking Alliance Web Site


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ADA said:


> Just to clarify. Working dogs are only supposed to be docked by a Vet if they are intended for sale as truly working dogs and not pets. VETERINARY certiificaton of exemption should follow the pup into new ownership and the pup must be microchipped with certification and confirmation that it is the same puppy docked under the exemption rules. Working dogs are not necessarily those catigorised by the Kennel Club but those that work the gun in the field, police, rescue, or armed services.
> seeAnti-Docking Alliance Web Site


Nothing will change significantly unless it is made illegal to own a docked dog without working exemption.

People will STILL take dogs to Ireland to be docked, and Irish puppy farmers can still sell their docked puppies here.

What a law, really - Yes it is good to see docked dogs with natural tails. But people who WANT docked tails will flout the law and/or buy pups from Irish puppy farmers. *In that respect it is actually undermining our welfare laws.*

I guess.... *ADA*... Anti Docking Alliance?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

We have all the docking papers ect, we dont work ours they are pets what is said about a breeder can only have pups docked if they are going to go to people are going to work them cannot stand this is a grey area anyone can say that they are going to work the pup regardless of wether they are or not, some dont make the grade and cant be worked.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> I often wonder how much the lack of a tail affects a dogs ability to communicate with others.


Some evidence...



> Behavioural responses of Canis familiaris to different
> tail lengths of a remotely-controlled life-size
> dog replica


http://web.uvic.ca/~reimlab/robodog.pdf



Nicky10 said:


> people will try all kinds of stories like oh the cows will stand on their tails or some other crap.


Exactly. They were docked because people liked the look. Dobermanns, for example, didn't even exist as a breed when that tax was about and as for the story about people grabbing the tail...:lol:

Thought provoking article from K9 mag on rottie docking.
(ex) Rottweiler Breeders: You Suck! You REALLY SUCK!


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Our Chazz would have been one of the dogs that would have had his tail docked! However, he LOVES having a tail!! Its fun and amusing for him. He chases it no end and loves to waggle it most of the time as he is a very happy dog! How could anyone wanna take this away from a dog! Its horrible IMO. It also shows him as the handsome boy he is when he stands there and does his "gundog stance" with ears pricked and tail held high! I will get a photo one day!! Cause it makes him look sooo handsome!


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

can someone just explain something to me please?

why the importance of a working dog to have its tail docked? What's the reason exactly behind it?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

ad_1980 said:


> can someone just explain something to me please?
> 
> why the importance of a working dog to have its tail docked? What's the reason exactly behind it?


Its the damage they can do to them


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Working spaniels can do a lot of damage to their tails but a lot of the time it's looks. So they'll say rotties will damage their tails by the cows standing on them yet most of the cow herders have full tails and most rotties never see a cow herd in their lives. I didn't know neapolitan mastiffs were docked how are they docked?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I think the true reasons for docking various breeds are rather varied, from 'tax reasons' - ie; to denote a 'droving' dog used on roads as opposed to a farm and field dog (Pembroke Corgi was a droving dog and Cardigan Corgi was more of a field and farm dog), to make dogs look more 'alert' - dobermans, Rottweillers etc and of course 'just because'. The reasons for docking rarely stand up to scrutiny and are often expounded without sound evidence. Apart from all that, most of the modern world is now looking to be more 'humane' hence the distressing act of docking is no more for a lot of companion dogs, thank goodness.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I didn't know neapolitan mastiffs were docked how are they docked?


The Romans apparently believed that docking tails prevented rabies.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah but they have tails even the american dogs with their ears cropped is it only a partial dock?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Ear cropping has been illegal in this country for over 100 years.... it was recognised then that it was for cosmetic purposes only. But tail docking wasn't made illegal then.... so there surely must be some sound reasoning behind it for genuine working breeds. Bakc then we didn't have as many docked breeds here as we do now.... Many newer breeds imported from other countries are docked, so it could be cosmetic in those cases; a fashion from countries which didn't take as much heed of welfare as we did back then.


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## sunshine80 (Jan 25, 2010)

ADA said:


> Just to clarify. Working dogs are only supposed to be docked by a Vet if they are intended for sale as truly working dogs and not pets. VETERINARY certiificaton of exemption should follow the pup into new ownership and the pup must be microchipped with certification and confirmation that it is the same puppy docked under the exemption rules. Working dogs are not necessarily those catigorised by the Kennel Club but those that work the gun in the field, police, rescue, or armed services.
> seeAnti-Docking Alliance Web Site


I meant to say in my last post that I was suprised how many people were advertising "legally docked cockers" for sale when I was looking for one about 6/7 months so. I knew that docking was illegal and ended up asking the breeder I got Sonny from if he had a tail and he explained about docking and working dogs. I was still shocked at how many advertised docked cockers and did not explain that they were workers and should only go to working homes. I can not see any reason why they would sell cockers docked otherwise as they have lovely tails (as all dogs do).


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

we have schnauzers from before the ban so docked and after the ban so have a tail, originally we searched to try and find undocked puppies but couldnt and found a good breeder and gave a home to ella, jasper and molly, we bred with molly and her litter were all undocked and we kept mabel and bought in our mini charlie girl again undocked and although i love the look of all 5 i must admit that mabels and charlies girls tails always wag especially mabels who is the standard and has a beautifully constructed tail, Charlie girl whos the mini her tail is not so well set and kinks to one side and she holds it curled, our 3 docked dogs waggle thier whole body and thier little schtummies lol lol but i absolutely love them with tails but it did take a little while to get used to them after years of seeing the schnauzer docked. Lovemydogs the Giant in the photo is stunning


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## ADA (May 30, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Ear cropping has been illegal in this country for over 100 years.... .


Actually it wasn't "illegal" but the fashion was changed by Edward VII who was interested in show dogs and disapproved of docking and wrote to the KC to voice his disapproval. The KC then regulated that no dog could be shown with cropped ears and hence it came to pass! However docking at that time involved so many field sports people who also showed their dogs (remember that a tax was levied in past history on non working dogs and therefore identification of a working dog was a docked tail) docking then became the norm as show people considered the dog's outline was also aesthetically more pleasing to the eye in the show ring. Show breeders who belong to Breed Clubs/Councils have over the years drawn up the breeds' standards and put them to the Kennel Club who has usually rubber stamped them, but things are a-changing!
A prolific show breeder can alter a breed profile once they start winning in the show ring. examples: the Pekingese snout (late 19th and early 20th century) vanished into the flat face dog we see today with breathing problems, the show German Shepherd previously known as the Alsatian now has a sloping back and undesirable hocks (hip scores recorded in the breed have shown up some very high scores). 
As dogs have been docked breeders have never considered matings for tail length and some Spaniels (frequently the Field Spaniels) do seem to have a disproportionately long tail when left undocked but this may be due to their antecedents and out crossing. 
There can be all sorts of problems with tail docking as it is after all an injury in itself. Too close a dock can injure the spinal cord and and cause subsequent neurological damage, paralysis and lack of bladder and bowel control as the surrounding muscle area atrophies. 
The top surface of the dog's tail has scent glands which some believe through evolution no longer function but this is not my belief as they can be seen to secrete; the hair around them is usually coarser and of a reddish colour. They may well be part of the dog's communication system when the tail is "wafted"; many dockings take place above these glands.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I saw 2 Rottweilers yesterday, both looked quite young, sadly both had docked tails


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> I saw 2 Rottweilers yesterday, both looked quite young, sadly both had docked tails


I think they still dock them, if theres health reasons as to why? I know its similar to dew claws, my breed comply with the health reasons to have them taken off but only if they are hanging enough, so far my dogs dew claws have been well tucked it and out the way xx


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

RachyBobs said:


> I think they still dock them, if theres health reasons as to why? I know its similar to dew claws, my breed comply with the health reasons to have them taken off but only if they are hanging enough, so far my dogs dew claws have been well tucked it and out the way xx


Bob's rear dewclaws were really floppy so we got them taken off, now I don't cringe when he runs through the long grass!


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

i own a docked dog.personally i don`t mind it.(hes nearly 5,so was docked before the ban,he also had his back dewclaws removed)
I do find it wierd seeing traditionally docked breeds with tails,especially rotties,dobermans and boxers.But they do look nice.It somehow makes rotties look more friendly,not that i`m saying they aren`t,i love rotties.
we get a fair few dogs that are young but have been docked,all the rotties weve had in,in the last 2 years have been docked.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

ive got to say i dont like all this undocked stuff. I grew up with a docked rotty and i wouldnt have another one unless the ban was lifted

Dont beat me up! *runs and hides*


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

i can understand why people don`t like docking,but i don`t agree with it being barbaric,it`s far worse for an adult dog to have it`s tail removed than a few days old pup.
i also agree it`s pretty pointless unless the dog will be worked


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Starlite said:


> ive got to say i dont like all this undocked stuff. I grew up with a docked rotty and i wouldnt have another one unless the ban was lifted
> 
> Dont beat me up! *runs and hides*


I don't understand that. You would rather a dog go through that because its looks more pleasing to you???

It so wrong, us humans decided to cut off a dogs tail just because in our warped mind its looks ''better''............how can anyone think that its 'right'???

I also do not understand why you put ''runs and hides''..........if you make a statement then you must expect people to answer it.

I HATE the fact us humans think we are allowed to mutilate other beings. Why? Because we think WE looks better?????

Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I love dogs just as the way they were born .................with tails.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

There were people who stopped breeding dobermans etc because they couldn't rip them away from mum and mutilate them at a few days old. These were people who loved the breed so much


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> There were people who stopped breeding dobermans etc because they couldn't rip them away from mum and mutilate them at a few days old. These were people who loved the breed so much


Exactly...........so in all honestly its all because they were aesthetically pleasing to them. Its all about the beauty. What a load of **** them and the others like them.

I HATE the practice of docked dogs, i have one (recsued) and would give anything to have his tail back.

Its a disgusting practice and should be stopped totally.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah pretty much. It has no purpose most of the time although I can understand it in the working spaniels it's just pointless mutilation. You wouldn't suddenly take in a human baby at a few days old and cut off part of their ears or a thumb or whatever just because you didn't like the look of them. Actually I'm sure some people would


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> Yeah pretty much. It has no purpose most of the time although I can understand it in the working spaniels it's just pointless mutilation. You wouldn't suddenly take in a human baby at a few days old and cut off part of their ears or a thumb or whatever just because you didn't like the look of them. Actually I'm sure some people would


I am sure some twisted people would like to do that because its not ''pleasing'' to them.

I will never understand why people think its OK to cut off parts of an animals body just because they like it..or ''demand'' says so??

This is yet another reason i love animals so much more than i ever will most humans.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I don't understand that. You would rather a dog go through that because its looks more pleasing to you???
> 
> It so wrong, us humans decided to cut off a dogs tail just because in our warped mind its looks ''better''............how can anyone think that its 'right'???
> 
> ...


Were you at the back of the queue when they were giving out a sense of humour? *runs and hides* was a joke lol!

Just because you dont like it or it doesnt make sense to you doesnt mean your right. I never said I was either, which is why we all have opinions and i voiced mine. 
As for the "go through that", docking done properly doesnt hurt the animal if done correctly, fact. Im not going to lie, i would have another rott if it was docked. As far as im aware thats still my desicion 

Are you aware there are breeds that are born without tails? Does that make them any less of a dog i wonder?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Thats your opinion you're allowed it. Don't one of the corgi breeds have bobtail lines and some OESs? Of course it's not less of a dog but thats natural rather than humans deciding it looks pretty


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Thats your opinion you're allowed it. Don't one of the corgi breeds have bobtail lines and some OESs? Of course it's not less of a dog but thats natural rather than humans deciding it looks pretty


Yep 
Some have the appearance of docking:
Also the Stumpy-Tail Cattle Dog(also known as the Smithfield Heeler) looks a lot like Australian Cattle Dogs, with their naturally short tail. Their tails are not docked. The pups are born with tiny stumpy tails which, according to the standard, are not to exceed 4 inches when fully grown. 
I believe Schipperkes are born with very small tails normally


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Starlite said:


> Yep
> Some have the appearance of docking:
> Also the Stumpy-Tail Cattle Dog(also known as the Smithfield Heeler) looks a lot like Australian Cattle Dogs, with their naturally short tail. Their tails are not docked. The pups are born with tiny stumpy tails which, according to the standard, are not to exceed 4 inches when fully grown.
> I believe Schipperkes are born with very small tails normally


Some Australian Shepherds are also born with half, bob or full tails.
Not sure about the Schipperkes, as although they are said to be born bobbed, since the docking ban came in it's hard to find pics on breeders' websites with any without tails. Probably like the Aussies it can vary.

In some respects natural bobtails are not such a great thing, since it can also lead to spinal abnormalities.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Schipperkes can have a full tail like a spitz dog undocked but I guess it wrecks the "square impression"
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1019988663030112775sLlOyoLJCc


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

When my mother in law had her 2 litters, (undocked GSPs) she had no problem finding homes, she only had a few calls where people wanted docked dogs. I think its so nice to have a choice now, whereas before they were all just automatically docked.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I never thought i'd like to see poodles without docked tails but i find they look just fine. I've allways thought that docking was painless.*


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I never thought i'd like to see poodles without docked tails but i find they look just fine. I've allways thought that docking was painless.*


Im no expert but I believe that this is totally dependant on it being done properly and at a very young age. If done when older then it can be painful and uncomfortable for the dog, and also if it is done incorrectly.

Personally, i dont see much of a point of docking if the dog isnt a working dog, so the tail does not pose a danger. In the same way that ear cropping serves no purpose.
I can see why it would be used as a preventative measure for workers, but other than that I dont see the point!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Savahl said:


> Im no expert but I believe that this is totally dependant on it being done properly and at a very young age. If done when older then it can be painful and uncomfortable for the dog, and also if it is done incorrectly.
> 
> Personally, i dont see much of a point of docking if the dog isnt a working dog, so the tail does not pose a danger. In the same way that ear cropping serves no purpose.
> I can see why it would be used as a preventative measure for workers, but other than that I dont see the point!


*I've just watched some tail docking on youtube,it was sickening.I don't know where i got the idea they just put a band around the tail until it fell off.*


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I've just watched some tail docking on youtube,it was sickening.I don't know where i got the idea they just put a band around the tail until it fell off.*


I dont think i could bring myself to watch it really


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Savahl said:


> I dont think i could bring myself to watch it really


*
I have to say its sickening.*


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Oh my GOD...I just watched the one where they docked the tail of a 2 day old puppy, the cries ....oh it's awful....sickening

I force myself to watch things like this so I can comment on it honestly...you know you get the people who say.,...well have u seen it, no ...well you can't judge then......well now I have seen it,so I can and will judge...it was done in someones living room and it's barbaric and discusting....they used forceps and twisted the poor dogs tail off and didn't even get upset, There's no wonder they disabled the comments on that vidio....evil nasty people who need something that I can't repeat on this forum


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Clare7435 said:


> Oh my GOD...I just watched the one where they docked the tail of a 2 day old puppy, the cries ....oh it's awful....sickening
> 
> I force myself to watch things like this so I can comment on it honestly...you know you get the people who say.,...well have u seen it, no ...well you can't judge then......well now I have seen it,so I can and will judge...it was done in someones living room and it's barbaric and discusting....they used forceps and twisted the poor dogs tail off and didn't even get upset, There's no wonder they disabled the comments on that vidio....evil nasty people who need something that I can't repeat on this forum


I thought they would've put the pup under before docking the tails though? Poor puppy......


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

ad_1980 said:


> I thought they would've put the pup under before docking the tails though? Poor puppy......


No...one held it and the other one did it it was bloody horrible....I doubt they where even experienced to have any kind of anesthetic...surely that's illegal....I'm going to report it to yutube see if i get anywhere

YouTube - Docking Drahthaar tails


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

how can ripping a tail off a puppy be painless?? even after if they are put under they will have some sort of pain from it i.e stitches, bruising e.t.c 

Its lovely to see full tailed dogs, cant understand why people Like to see animals docked, cropped e.t.c just leave them as they are! 

Its the same as shoving ear rings through tiny babies, people do it because we want to, because we think it looks nice e.t.c 

The only time it should be done is on actual working dogs who will cause more pain e.t.c to themselfs by havin a tail


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Daynna said:


> how can ripping a tail off a puppy be painless?? even after if they are put under they will have some sort of pain from it i.e stitches, bruising e.t.c


Thats something else that p***es me off, they dont stitch they just wait for it to clot and take the forceps off it makes me so bloody mad


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Daynna said:


> how can ripping a tail off a puppy be painless?? even after if they are put under they will have some sort of pain from it i.e stitches, bruising e.t.c
> 
> Its lovely to see full tailed dogs, cant understand why people Like to see animals docked, cropped e.t.c just leave them as they are!
> 
> ...


yes ok sorry didn't mean to sound dumb! I just meant that they can't feel the process if they were put under - i know they'd feel pain after the op, just like any other operation.


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## BoxerClay (Sep 26, 2009)

I've got a boxer with an undocked tail. I think he looks brill with a tail. It's constantly wagging because he's such a happy dog and its great to see. Can be sore sometimes when he whips you :laugh:


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I've just watched some tail docking on youtube,it was sickening.I don't know where i got the idea they just put a band around the tail until it fell off.*


they put bands round lambs tails to dock them. They also put bands around the testicles to castrate young lambs. They collapse with pain for a few minutes after the bands are put on.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> they put bands round lambs tails to dock them. They also put bands around the testicles to castrate young lambs. They collapse with pain for a few minutes after the bands are put on.


*But do some use bands on pups?*


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *But do some use bands on pups?*


i don't know how puppies are docked.


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *But do some use bands on pups?*


It hasn't actually been legal to do that for a while, even before the complete ban, only vets were allowed to dock. I sure some people still do though.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

WoodyGSP said:


> It hasn't actually been legal to do that for a while, even before the complete ban, only vets were allowed to dock. I sure some people still do though.


*Yes i understand that but i was curious.*


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

ad_1980 said:


> yes ok sorry didn't mean to sound dumb! I just meant that they can't feel the process if they were put under - i know they'd feel pain after the op, just like any other operation.


Lol i didnt mean you hun, Just a post on whatever page saying it didnt hurt at all. If they are going to do it going under is the best way as it is i guess its the way that causes min pain in them.x


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## Inca's Mum (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't care personally, a tail is a tail. We used to have a GSP which was partially docked, not right to the stump and it was sad to not see him fully able to wag his tail whereas my grandma's dogs could and I loved that. Then again it was funny to see his little stump wagging madly. I think eventually we won't see docked dogs and having them with tails is just going to be the common thing. All breeds are beautiful, docked or undocked. I haven't bothered to read through the whole thread but I'm just posting my opinion


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

I think dogs are gorgious with their tails!! A few months back I saw a dog as we were going past in the car, it looked like a lab with a very fluffy tail!! When I looked closer I saw it was a rotty and I was surprised to say the least cause I dont know what a rottys tail looked like at the time. But it looked gorgious!!


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## brackensmom (Jun 15, 2009)

BoxerClay said:


> I've got a boxer with an undocked tail. I think he looks brill with a tail. It's constantly wagging because he's such a happy dog and its great to see. Can be sore sometimes when he whips you :laugh:


Hi i also saw a boxer today with an undocked tail, and must admit i thought it looked lovely and soo nice to see it wagging away. 
I do think dogs should be left as nature intended and what the dogs are born with, unless for working dogs that it could possibly cause more damage having a tail.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I always thought one of the worst sights was the back end of a docked rottie. I'm so glad that will become just a memory.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I have 2 with docked and 1 with full tail, i do think they should be docked because of the damage they can do but i do like to see the long tails harveys is lovely. I think with some breeds you are just used to seeing with docked so dont think about it but i would hate to see a lab with docked just because ime used to seeing them with full tails, i think i might be wrong but they are the only working breed that has never had docked tails.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Woody's tail was docked. I'm trying to place a pic of him in my head and imagining him with a tail......i can't see it lol.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> I have 2 with docked and 1 with full tail, i do think they should be docked because of the damage they can do but i do like to see the long tails harveys is lovely. I think with some breeds you are just used to seeing with docked so dont think about it but i would hate to see a lab with docked just because ime used to seeing them with full tails, i think i might be wrong but they are the only working breed that has never had docked tails.


Are setters docked or the other retrievers?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I dont think so, i do know that springers are docked because they do a different job to the labs/retrievers and they actually move their tails different when i look at my springer the one i have that isnt docked they move it in a circular movement thats why the undergrowth gets caught up easier and entwines quite tight.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah I was wondering when you said labs were the only undocked working breed


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Yeah I was wondering when you said labs were the only undocked working breed


I can only recall seeing springers and cockers in the gun dog breeds being docked, they just stand out to me but i could be wrong.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I thought viszlas and weimaraners were docked a bit? And the spinones


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## Inca's Mum (Apr 9, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I thought viszlas and weimaraners were docked a bit? And the spinones


Weim's are, as is a Vizsla at my training classes.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Yeah I was wondering when you said labs were the only undocked working breed


Excepting the working herding dogs, and flock guards?


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