# Ringling Brother Circus to shut down



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

i can only think that this is a good thing. I'm sorry for the human employees, but the fact that no more animals will be made to perform for our entertainment makes me very happy

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ertainment/ringling-circus-closing/index.html


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

That's ok as long as they can continue with this
http://www.ringlingelephantcenter.com/

Otherwise, I hate to think where those poor elephants will end up.

I'm not sure if a circus animal with a good handler is any worse off than than a zoo animal with a poor keeper. At least the circus animal is active


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Good. Animals, especially wild animals, aren't here for us to torture and force to perform. It's not just the performing, it's where and how the poor creatures are being kept when not performing and how they are transported. 
I do have concerns, like @rona says, after they've shut down and where they'll go, but it's good that they're ending.

There are still animal circuses in Europe, but I've never seen one advertised in the UK. I think the British would kick up a stink. I also would never go anywhere which has orcas or dolphins in captivity either.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

More than likely all the other animals will be euthanized no call for them anywhere else sad sad affair think that the people who protest till they get there way should be made to either take on the care and attention of the animals or made to perform the euthanasia just maybe then they will fully understand what the realities of their actions are for the animals ..


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

sandy68 said:


> More than likely all the other animals will be euthanized no call for them anywhere else sad sad affair think that the people who protest till they get there way should be made to either take on the care and attention of the animals or made to perform the euthanasia just maybe then they will fully understand what the realities of their actions are for the animals ..


That the animals will be euthanised is deeply sad but they will be the last that has to live that at least


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

sandy68 said:


> More than likely all the other animals will be euthanized no call for them anywhere else sad sad affair think that the people who protest till they get there way should be made to either take on the care and attention of the animals or made to perform the euthanasia just maybe then they will fully understand what the realities of their actions are for the animals ..


What, do you prefer for circuses to continue using wild animals?


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

MiffyMoo said:


> What, do you prefer for circuses to continue using wild animals?


 I never said that I said that people who campaign for the end of such things should be responsible for their actions and either take care of the said animals or be prepared to do the dirty work THE ANIMALS DIDN'T CHOOSE TO BE IN A CIRCUS BUT THEY DIDNT CHOOSE TO BE EUTHANIZED EITHER and to celebrate the demise of the circus without being prepared to do the right thing for the animals is really pathetic and for those who cant see that well what can I say


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

But the barbaric practice of keeping these animals in slavery has to end. Hopefully, these animals will find sanctuary in a forever home, where they can live out their lives in a natural environment as possible.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Jackie C said:


> But the barbaric practice of keeping these animals in slavery has to end. Hopefully, these animals will find sanctuary in a forever home, where they can live out their lives in a natural environment as possible.


ah yes but in truth what do you really think will happen to them ?
Remember this is not an ideal world....


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sandy68 said:


> More than likely all the other animals will be euthanized no call for them anywhere else sad sad affair think that the people who protest till they get there way should be made to either take on the care and attention of the animals or made to perform the euthanasia just maybe then they will fully understand what the realities of their actions are for the animals ..





sandy68 said:


> I never said that I said that people who campaign for the end of such things should be responsible for their actions and either take care of the said animals or be prepared to do the dirty work THE ANIMALS DIDN'T CHOOSE TO BE IN A CIRCUS BUT THEY DIDNT CHOOSE TO BE EUTHANIZED EITHER and to celebrate the demise of the circus without being prepared to do the right thing for the animals is really pathetic and for those who cant see that well what can I say


I don't understand your logic. Do you remember Annie?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nd-left-the-bobby-roberts-circus-8372360.html

So if we don't agree with puppy farms are you saying we should not campaign to get them closed down unless we are personally prepared to go and take every breeding bitch and puppy incarcerated there to be put to sleep or can take each and every one into our own homes? Are you saying if we are opposed to animals in research laboratories we should not campaign against them unless we will go in and supervise each animal being put to sleep? If that were the case nobody would campaign against getting anything done about anything much would they?

Sometimes charities like Born Free or the better zoos with more space (like Longleat) or places like Monkey World step in and help.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

sandy68 said:


> ah yes but in truth what do you really think will happen to them ?
> Remember this is not an ideal world....


Well, that's what I said: hopefully they'll find in a sanctuary that is suitable, but using animals in a circus has to end. I remember when I was about 8 years old and going to a dolphin show. I don't remember being "entertained", all I remember is feeling sad.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

People seem to forget that in their efforts to protect animals, that the consequences for the animals they have saved , is to be euthanized out of hand, while they go around clapping themselves on the back making speeches about what a great day its been. Perhaps a little more sombre approach would be more fitting and more concern and respect for the animals remember THAT ITS NOT THE POOR ANIMALS FAULT .....


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Is anyone here saying that it _is _the animals fault ?

Are many animals saved from circuses in the US euthanised? I would hope the organisations that campaign to save them would raise enough money to be able to support them .

More info about Ringlings here 
http://lcanimal.org/index.php/campaigns/animals-in-entertainment/circuses


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lies that may have their conservation centre closed too  No one listens to the truth.
They started their conservation centre in 1995 but the public are so willing to listen to the animal rights lies. Animals die through many many causes but the animal activists will always tell you it was because of abuse or cruelty or neglect, No one is interested in truth these days just headlines  
http://www.ringlingbrostrialinfo.com/

"HSUS and animal rights groups the Fund for Animals, Animal Welfare Institute, Born Free USA (formerly the Animal Protection Institute), the Wildlife Advocacy Project, the law firm of Meyer, Glitzenstein & Crystal, and several current and former attorneys of that firm, paid the settlement for their involvement in the case brought under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) that the U.S. District Court ruled was "frivolous," "vexatious," and "groundless and unreasonable from its inception." Today's settlement also covers the related Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) case that Feld Entertainment filed against the groups after discovering they had paid a plaintiff for his participation in the original lawsuit and then attempted to conceal those payments.

In December 2012, the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA), a former co-defendant in the case, settled its share of the lawsuits by paying Feld Entertainment $9.3 million. Today's settlement brings the total recovered by Feld Entertainment to more than $25 million in legal fees and expenses, which the company actually spent in defending the ESA case.

"After winning 14 years of litigation, Feld Entertainment has been vindicated. This case was a colossal abuse of the justice system in which the animal rights groups and their lawyers apparently believed the ends justified the means. It also marks the first time in U.S. history where a defendant in an Endangered Species Act case was found entitled to recover attorneys' fees against the plaintiffs due to the Court's finding of frivolous, vexatious and unreasonable litigation," said Feld Entertainment's legal counsel in this matter, John Simpson, a partner with Norton Rose Fulbright's Washington, D.C., office. "The total settlement amounts represent recovery of 100 percent of the legal fees Feld Entertainment incurred in defending against the ESA lawsuit."


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Lies that may have their conservation centre closed too  No one listens to the truth.
> They started their conservation centre in 1995 but the public are so willing to listen to the animal rights lies. Animals die through many many causes but the animal activists will always tell you it was because of abuse or cruelty or neglect, No one is interested in truth these days just headlines
> http://www.ringlingbrostrialinfo.com/
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Feld Entertainment is an industry funded lobbying organization for the rodeos and affiliated industries in animal commerce and agriculture, Rona


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

It is all about money, unless you believe in absolute altruism. Attendance is down at the circus and "he's investing "every cent required" in research he calls "potentially the greatest thing ever in my life, and may be the greatest thing ever in everyone's life." Joshua Schiffman, a pediatric oncologist at the University of Utah, is using blood from Ringling elephants to study why elephants rarely develop cancer. He's searching for a genetic protector, hoping it might prevent cancer in humans."

taken from National Geographic
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/09/150916-ringling-circus-elephants-florida-center/

The sanctuary is a breeding centre because you can't import elephants anymore. I'd probably rather live there than a circus though, if I was an elephant, so happy to see the circus close.

With regard to the UK, the Tories blocked attempts to ban wild animals in circuses and thought that was an end to it
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...us-blocked-by-tory-backbenchers-10092779.html

but it seems that may not be the case
http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2016-17/wildanimalsincircusesprohibition.html


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Feld Entertainment is an industry funded lobbying organization for the rodeos and affiliated industries in animal commerce and agriculture, Rona[/QUOTE]

I can find nothing to back up your claim that isn't on an animal rights site. Their main focus seems to be their Ice shows.
https://www.feldentertainment.co.uk/Shows/DisneyOnIce/


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Feld Entertainment is an industry funded lobbying organization for the rodeos and affiliated industries in animal commerce and agriculture, Rona


I can find nothing to back up your claim that isn't on an animal rights site. Their main focus seems to be their Ice shows.
https://www.feldentertainment.co.uk/Shows/DisneyOnIce/[/QUOTE]

Try SourceWatch >> http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Animal_Welfare_Council


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Try SourceWatch >> http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Animal_Welfare_Council


They are an animal right organization


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> taken from National Geographic
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/09/150916-ringling-circus-elephants-florida-center/


That's a little concerning. I'll have to try and find some more info on that. I couldn't really find out what the authors personal views are on the animal rights movement. I like to know it's a balanced view


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> They are an animal right organization


No they are not.

*The Center for Media and Democracy is a national watchdog group that conducts in-depth investigations into corruption and the undue influence of corporations on media and democracy*


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Not a supporter of Circuses that use animals for entertainment. I think they are dated forms of entertainment that have no place in the world we live in now.

That said, I do believe that people who protest these things should also make sure that the animals are able to be cared for after the closure. Doesn't mean them literally doing it themselves obviously.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

What is so wrong with an animal rights organisation? 

Sorry but I would rather see those animals euthanized than spend the rest of their lives being tormented, just like I would rather see my own dogs put to sleep than used in dog fighting or a puppy farm especially if it meant no more would follow behind them.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> What is so wrong with an animal rights organisation?
> 
> Sorry but I would rather see those animals euthanized than spend the rest of their lives being tormented, just like I would rather see my own dogs put to sleep than used in dog fighting or a puppy farm especially if it meant no more would follow behind them.


So would I, but what if it's not abuse and the animals are having a better life than they would couped up in a zoo cage?

I see zoos as far far worse


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> So would I, but what if it's not abuse and the animals are having a better life than they would couped up in a zoo cage?
> 
> I see zoos as far far worse


Who is advocating for them to be couped up in a zoo cage?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sometimes charities like Born Free or the better zoos with more space (like Longleat) or places like Monkey World step in and help.


You. Zoos are babaric places


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rona said:


> So would I, but what if it's not abuse and the animals are having a better life than they would couped up in a zoo cage?
> 
> I see zoos as far far worse


How do you work out that being made to perform tricks for people is better than being in a natural environment in a zoo? Circuse's travel they can't possibly give the animals the space they need


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

anachronism said:


> How do you work out that being made to perform tricks for people is better than being in a natural environment in a zoo? Circuse's travel they can't possibly give the animals the space they need


As with all animal care, a lot depends on the stockman. A good stockman in a bad environment is better than a bad stockman in a better environment. *NO* caged animal is good, no matter what the size of cage. Rescue animals are obviously better off in that kind of environment and I applaud Monkey World wholehearted, but what are zoos but exploitation of animals.

Longleat isn't any better than anywhere else. I remember going there years ago and being disgusted by the state of the animals. Oh yes they rescue animals 
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-g...e-is-facing-her-5th-winter-alone-at-longleat/
"
Remember Anne? She is the elephant that was rescued in the UK in spring 2011 after an impassioned public outcry when a video showed how she was severely beaten in Bobby Roberts Super Circus. Five years have passed since her rescue and Anne still has not had her basic need fulfilled: elephant company."

If this isn't cruelty what is?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

anachronism said:


> How do you work out that being made to perform tricks for people is better than being in a natural environment in a zoo? Circuse's travel they can't possibly give the animals the space they need


They get far more stimulation. I don't agree with circus animals, far from it, I think it's obscene, but don't hold up other animal exploitation as a better alternative without knowing how the animals are treated


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

I wouldnt say good Zoo exploit animals at all. Good zoo's have enclosures fitting for the species, that provide enrichment and places to hide, that put money into conservation, that breed rare species...

It is sad that Anne has no company, has a reason been given for her not to have? Can't imagine it is as simple as pushing her into an enclosure with other elephants and letting them get into it, especially with an animal who is likely to be mentally scarred by her abuse. Elephants are sensitive and intelligent creatures


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

anachronism said:


> I wouldnt say good Zoo exploit animals at all. Good zoo's have enclosures fitting for the species, that provide enrichment and places to hide, that put money into conservation, that breed rare species...
> 
> It is sad that Anne has no company, has a reason been given for her not to have? Can't imagine it is as simple as pushing her into an enclosure with other elephants and letting them get into it, especially with an animal who is likely to be mentally scarred by her abuse. Elephants are sensitive and intelligent creatures


That's your opinion, mine is different. If zoos were doing it for conservation, why have they all those poor animals that aren't threatened or endangered?

Enclosures sounds better than cages doesn't it? Still a cage


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rona said:


> That's your opinion, mine is different. If zoos were doing it for conservation, why have they all those poor animals that aren't threatened or endangered?
> 
> Enclosures sounds better than cages doesn't it? Still a cage


Not really. A cage is something with bars all around, enclosures (while they do keep the animals in) are different.

Obviously wild is best. But you can't say neither are wild so both are equally bad


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> You. Zoos are babaric places


I did not mean ordinary zoos but the bigger wildlife parks like Longleat and Monkey World, I've been to both although admittedly not to Longleat in recent years and I would not class them as barbaric places. From memory at Longleat most had large and very natural enclosures and were not made to perform tricks for the public or shunted around in lorries every week. Have a look at Anne the elephant I mentioned earlier in her new home at Longleat - short video which shows her indoor enclosure/enrichment area but she also has outside space/a pool and the best of medical attention. Have you read the reports about how this poor old elephant was treated in the circus?

https://www.longleat.co.uk/safari/anne-the-elephant

I used to sponsor Trudy a chimp rescued from Chipperfields who is now at Monkey World, her circus owner was convicted of 12 charges of cruelty after being filmed beating her with a riding crop. This is where she lives now in this huge enclosure in a group of chimps

http://www.monkeyworld.org/meet-our-primates/hananyas-chimpanzees.htm

I'm not saying these are perfect solutions but they are worlds apart from the life these animals used to have.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

anachronism said:


> I wouldnt say good Zoo exploit animals at all. Good zoo's have enclosures fitting for the species, that provide enrichment and places to hide, that put money into conservation, that breed rare species...
> 
> It is sad that Anne has no company, has a reason been given for her not to have? Can't imagine it is as simple as pushing her into an enclosure with other elephants and letting them get into it, especially with an animal who is likely to be mentally scarred by her abuse. Elephants are sensitive and intelligent creatures


Even if Anne cannot live with other elephants due to her frailty, they could put her next to an enclosure with others. To keep an Elephant alone is just as much torture as she has already suffered. Cruelty on a mammoth scale.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> As with all animal care, a lot depends on the stockman. A good stockman in a bad environment is better than a bad stockman in a better environment. *NO* caged animal is good, no matter what the size of cage. Rescue animals are obviously better off in that kind of environment and I applaud Monkey World wholehearted, but what are zoos but exploitation of animals.
> 
> Longleat isn't any better than anywhere else. I remember going there years ago and being disgusted by the state of the animals. Oh yes they rescue animals
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-g...e-is-facing-her-5th-winter-alone-at-longleat/
> ...


Sorry we cross posted so must come back to this point - she is not alone she has goats for companionship but not other elephants as was initially hoped - this is the park's response

But Bob Montgomery, CEO of the safari park, said experts had recommended that "Anne should live out her life alone".

"Elephants are social animals but that becomes much more subjective when you're talking about an older elephant," he said.

"And unless we are able to find a suitable companion - right age, right temperament - the concern would be that the wrong companion would do more harm then good."

Although ADI said they welcomed "any improvement in Anne's accommodation", they said the safari park had "promised to build an elephant sanctuary, which would have provided other elephants for Anne".

This elephant is 60 years old and has severe arthritis so I guess it would be pretty difficult and risky to try and place a mate with her.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

I'm sure they have thought about this, I am sure there is a reason. Obviously if I am wrong then I accept that and I agree it is unacceptable. Have you emailed them to express your concerns? I'm sure experienced elephant keepers will be happy to have your input


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

anachronism said:


> I'm sure they have thought about this, I am sure there is a reason. Obviously if I am wrong then I accept that and I agree it is unacceptable. Have you emailed them to express your concerns? I'm sure experienced elephant keepers will be happy to have your input


See my post above - they have said they have not ruled out a companion for her at some point in the future if the right one can be found given her age and health problems.

Longleat's experts decided that it is best for Anne to live alone for the time being, due to her age and health problems.

But the building can house up to four elephants, and the park said it remained open to the possibility of rehoming others in need of rehabilitation.

Jon Cracknell, director of animal operations at Longleat, said: 'Anne's health has dramatically improved since she arrived. Her transformation has been incredible.'


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sorry we cross posted so much come back to this point - she is not alone she has goats for companionship but not other elephants as was initially hoped - this is the park's response
> 
> But Bob Montgomery, CEO of the safari park, said experts had recommended that "Anne should live out her life alone".
> 
> ...


There we go. Incredibly sad but the fault lies at the feet of the "people" who abused her


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> See my post above - they have said they have not ruled out a companion for her at some point in the future if the right one can be found given her age and health problems.
> 
> Longleat's experts decided that it is best for Anne to live alone for the time being, due to her age and health problems.
> 
> ...


So she isn't mentally incapable of living with others?



anachronism said:


> There we go. Incredibly sad but the fault lies at the feet of the "people" who abused her


Why? They've had 6 years to sort this out, that isn't in the hands of her previous abusers, but her present ones.

Disgusted


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Maybe Longleat can get enough publicity from rehoming a Ringling Elephant! :Banghead


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

rona said:


> So she isn't mentally incapable of living with others?
> 
> Why? They've had 6 years to sort this out, that isn't in the hands of her previous abusers, but her present ones.
> 
> Disgusted


Again, if you feel like you know so much about rehabbing elephants then drop them an email, I'm sure they will appreciate your input


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

anachronism said:


> Again, if you feel like you know so much about rehabbing elephants then drop them an email, I'm sure they will appreciate your input


I know that an Elephant shouldn't be alone, what else do you need to know. They have the land, the money made from Anne and the other poor animals, they should do the decent thing.

How would you like to live for 6 years in isolation? (I'd love it but I'm not normal)

I know more than half the animal rights people and their spouted rubbish and lies. Animal rights have lost their way and been taken over by con men. They used to mean something, now they are liars


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

What is the "decent thing" ?

This elephant is elderly and suffering from illness. Experts (people who have studied elephants and worked with them) who know elephants more than you do (unless you have some experience you are keeping under your hat) have made the choice. It isn't the ideal choice but due to the many issues with Anne she has to stay separate. You sound like you would prefer she was left where she was? 

I'm not actually sure what your point is, you seem to want the best for this elephant (as do we all) but then say animal rights people spout rubbish and lies (I wont deny that there more hardcore factions like Peta with their anti pet keeping and mocked up videos) aren't full of it, but I'm not sure why you are saying that when you seem to WANT Anne to have rights. AR are the ones who are trying to stop the trade, you yourself are anti zoo. Without AR then Anne would probably be still where she was? Is that what you want?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

There arent actually that many Asian Elephants in the UK. In fact, i believe the total number of all elephants in the UK numbers less that 60; although the database i got that figure from could be out of date.

Being an endangered species, what is in captivity, will be subject to breeding programmes. As a species, they do extremely badly in captivity, with a high mortality rate, and low life expectancy - i doubt many zoos will give up a prime individual to merely be a 'companion'. Money comes first.

Anne obviously wouldnt be able to able to live with a bull at her age, and its quite possible that there are currently no suitable individuals (in terms of personality, age, breeding condition etc) that could live with her.

Shipping a 'suitable' candidate from another county *could* be an option, but also a disaster, a logistical nightmare and highly stressful, for all concerned if it doesnt work.

Many animals that have lived in captivity and had had close contact/training from humans, often find it difficult to relate to their own species (Keiko is a prime example - even when released he constantly sought out human interaction) not to mention significant behavioural problems that can cause communication issues with their own kind.

It could be, that being a lone individual is the only option currently open to her.

Maybe a bullet would be kinder.

Personally, id like to see all animals that are not critically endangered, removed from captivity. One way or another.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> So she isn't mentally incapable of living with others?
> 
> Why? They've had 6 years to sort this out, that isn't in the hands of her previous abusers, but her present ones.
> 
> Disgusted


Rona I am truly puzzled as to why you are so venomous against Longleat, they didn't steal Anne from the wild, they didn't remove her from her elephant family, they haven't used and abused her for years on end, they haven't travelled an ageing elephant with arthritis around the country in the back of a lorry every week, they haven't beaten her but they have given her medical care and attention, they have provided her with a heated enclosure to help her arthritis, a pool and an enrichment area with sand to throw around and some goats for company. As far as I can tell they said they would build an enclosure for up to 4 rescued elephants but have decided for now it is not in Anne's best interests because of her age and health to mix her with other elephants but that if a suitable companion comes up in the future they would not rule it out. Anne has not been able to live as a normal social elephant anyway so perhaps she would not enjoy doing so now at her time of life. I know lots of people with older arthritic dogs who prefer to keep them apart from other dogs and won't allow interactions because they could easily be knocked over or hurt by a younger more enthusiastic dog. The osteopath in the video of Anne I linked to obviously had concerns about her muscle strength just for walking down a path from one enclosure to another so how would she cope with another elephant?



rona said:


> I know that an Elephant shouldn't be alone, what else do you need to know. They have the land, the money made from Anne and the other poor animals, they should do the decent thing.
> 
> How would you like to live for 6 years in isolation? (I'd love it but I'm not normal)
> 
> I know more than half the animal rights people and their spouted rubbish and lies. Animal rights have lost their way and been taken over by con men. They used to mean something, now they are liars


Which animal rights people are spouting rubbish and lies and have lost their way? There are of course con men in every walk of life and some animal rights organisations in the past have been infiltrated by con men from pro hunting organisations. Why tar all animal rights people with the same brush? How many do you actually know?


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Nonnie said:


> There arent actually that many Asian Elephants in the UK. In fact, i believe the total number of all elephants in the UK numbers less that 60; although the database i got that figure from could be out of date.
> 
> Being an endangered species, what is in captivity, will be subject to breeding programmes. As a species, they do extremely badly in captivity, with a high mortality rate, and low life expectancy - i doubt many zoos will give up a prime individual to merely be a 'companion'. Money comes first.
> 
> ...


Maybe it would be, there are of course worse fates than death. But if she is happy and getting on then maybe not.

Does that include pets?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

anachronism said:


> Maybe it would be, there are of course worse fates than death. But if she is happy and getting on then maybe not.
> 
> Does that include pets?


Not domestic species, no. Their evolutionary process is completely different, and [of course] heavily influenced by humans.

I thought this was a thread about WILD animals being exploited.

As for happiness; how is that measured? How do we know if she is happy? How do we know any wild animal living in captivity is happy? They are denied natural lives after all. Many do not have outlets for basic natural behaviour - hunting for instant, or migrating. Some species arent even permitted to do something as simple as fly - an act that defines them!

Behavioural issues within zoo animals is rife - even in those high welfare parks.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Why tar all animal rights people with the same brush? How many do you actually know?


I'm not, there are a few good people still out there, Monkey world is the most famous and should be held up as a shining example.

Some of the videos and pictures put up by "campaigning" keyboard animals right are just laughable if people would just look a little closer. Also the source of information should also be considered. Many are paid for or supported by people with their own agendas.

I've looked more closely at National Geographical and there's some very questionable money going in there


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Rona I am truly puzzled as to why you are so venomous against Longleat


Their animal husbandry is appalling


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

sandy68 said:


> I never said that I said that people who campaign for the end of such things should be responsible for their actions and either take care of the said animals or be prepared to do the dirty work THE ANIMALS DIDN'T CHOOSE TO BE IN A CIRCUS BUT THEY DIDNT CHOOSE TO BE EUTHANIZED EITHER and to celebrate the demise of the circus without being prepared to do the right thing for the animals is really pathetic and for those who cant see that well what can I say


Well if I had room for an Elephant or Tiger in my house I'd be the first to sign up for it's care.....

As someone else said, if they are to be put to sleep, whilst very sad indeed, at least they are the last of their kind to ever have to suffer or be forced to parade around a circus ring for our entertainment.

I'd hope there are charities who have campaigned for their release who DO have procedures set in place to protect them now they are free.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Nonnie said:


> Not domestic species, no. Their evolutionary process is completely different, and [of course] heavily influenced by humans.
> 
> I thought this was a thread about WILD animals being exploited.
> 
> ...


It is you just said all species so I just wondered if you meant all wild or all all


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> Their animal husbandry is appalling


http://www.ad-international.org/publications/go.php?id=2279&si=98

"Anne was born in the wild in Sri Lanka in 1954 and has been with the Roberts family since she was a baby. ADI has monitored Anne's life for over twenty years - until 2001 she had elephants Janie and Beverly for company; then they both died suddenly at the winter quarters, leaving Anne alone".

So Anne has not had elephant company since 2001 - 16 years ago.

"Anne's condition has improved enormously in just a few weeks. Her arthritis medication has improved her ability to walk and her activity around the enclosure is getting better and better. She plays in the water in the small pool and dustbathes in a heap of sand, which, together with regular brushing and bathing by keepers, has improved her skin enormously. Anne also now plays with a soccer ball, a tractor tire and pushes a log around. Whereas she was chained to one spot 24 hours a day in the winter quarters, we have been assured that Anne is now only chained for veterinary and skin care - about 30 minutes a day. ADI has visited her at Longleat and have witnessed that Anne's life has changed immeasurably since she was removed from the circus."

On what basis do you claim that their animal husbandry is appalling?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

While living without other elephants in captivity may not be ideal, it really doesn't take much to convince me Annes life is much better living like this..









than this...









She's receiving the best medical treatment, she isn't chained 24/7 and isn't having a pitchfork rammed into her armpit for not performing. Nobody will convince me that Anne was happier in the second photo.

There are some crazy ass animal rights activists out there, but if their campaigning means the abuse in the second picture stops and circus animals get to live a better quality of life, then I don't see how that can be a bad thing.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Nettles said:


> but if their campaigning means the abuse in the second picture stops and circus animals get to live a better quality of life, then I don't see how that can be a bad thing.


So all circus keepers get tarred with the same brush because of that low life and Mary Chipperfield.

From what I can gather, there has only been 7 prosecutions in 100 yrs in UK

I can't find figures for USA


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rona said:


> So all circus keepers get tarred with the same brush because of that low life and Mary Chipperfield.


Of course not.
But no one can convince me that a circus is the right environment for Elephants or big cats...No matter how good the keeper is IMHO.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Of course not.
> But no one can convince me that a circus is the right environment for Elephants or big cats...No matter how good the keeper is IMHO.


I've never said they were, but a zoo could be even worse. I can't stand animals in either

https://phys.org/news/2011-07-social-networking-elephants.html


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

rona said:


> So all circus keepers get tarred with the same brush because of that low life and Mary Chipperfield.
> 
> From what I can gather, there has only been 7 prosecutions in 100 yrs in UK
> 
> I can't find figures for USA


I'm not tarring anyone with the same brush? The discussion was on Anne. She was abused while in the circus as is shown in the second picture I posted. She's now living a better, healthier life in Longleat.. which you don't agree with as it apparently has "appalling animal husbandry"

Poor animal husbandry skills or not, I know which life I would choose for Anne and nothing will convince me she was better off before. Unless of course the staff at Longleat are poking her with pitchforks and forcing her to do head stands for their entertainment?

If it takes a group of animal rights activists to make that happen and any animal gets to live a better quality of life because of it, then I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

And 7 prosecutions does not equate to only 7 crimes having been committed. It means 7 were caught.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Nettles said:


> The discussion was on Anne.


The discussion is Ringling circus


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

rona said:


> The discussion is Ringling circus


Oh for goodness sake, this is just getting petty now  Out of my entire post, you chose to ignore the rest of what I said and picked on a single sentence...

I said the discussion was *on* Anne, I didn't say the thread was about her. The topic being discussed when I replied was about Anne. You've mentioned her and Longleat yourself in the following posts..! 



rona said:


> Even if *Anne* cannot live with other elephants due to her frailty, they could put her next to an enclosure with others. To keep an Elephant alone is just as much torture as she has already suffered. Cruelty on a mammoth scale.





rona said:


> So she isn't mentally incapable of living with others?
> 
> Why? *They've* had 6 years to sort this out, that isn't in the hands of her previous abusers, but her present ones.
> 
> Disgusted





rona said:


> I know that an Elephant shouldn't be alone, what else do you need to know. They have the land, the money made from *Anne* and the other poor animals, they should do the decent thing.
> 
> How would you like to live for 6 years in isolation? (I'd love it but I'm not normal)
> 
> I know more than half the animal rights people and their spouted rubbish and lies. Animal rights have lost their way and been taken over by con men. They used to mean something, now they are liars





rona said:


> *Their* animal husbandry is appalling


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

With regard to the sanctuary and cancer cures - their own site details it:
http://www.ringlingelephantcenter.com/cancer-research/


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

a bit OT but if you click on the link it takes you to a twitter video of a lion rescued from a circus and taken to a zoo and being release into a pen and really enjoying himself . 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/820809463632248833"


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

http://www.captiveanimals.org/news/2014/08/top-ten-reasons-visit-europes-top-ten-zoos

http://www.captiveanimals.org/news/2014/06/blog-really-care-animals-zoos-bad-habit-need-drop

http://www.captiveanimals.org/news/2016/12/your-impact-for-animals-in-2016


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> a bit OT but if you click on the link it takes you to a twitter video of a lion rescued from a circus and taken to a zoo and being release into a pen and really enjoying himself .
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/820809463632248833"


Looks quite distressed doesn't he. I'm sure he will be ok once settled though


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Looks quite distressed doesn't he. I'm sure he will be ok once settled though


He doesn't look distressed to me. I feel choked up to see him enjoying himself probably for the first time in his life. I hope he gets to live out the rest of his days knowing only kindness, bless him.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> He doesn't look distressed to me. I feel choked up to see him enjoying himself probably for the first time in his life. I hope he gets to live out the rest of his days knowing only kindness, bless him.


No I knew he wouldn't to you


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> http://www.captiveanimals.org/news/2014/08/top-ten-reasons-visit-europes-top-ten-zoos
> 
> http://www.captiveanimals.org/news/2014/06/blog-really-care-animals-zoos-bad-habit-need-drop
> 
> http://www.captiveanimals.org/news/2016/12/your-impact-for-animals-in-2016


Agree with CAPS on zoos, but these animals have lived a miserable existence in a circus & will hopefully be cared by a responsible sanctuary, which should seem like heaven to them compared to what went before.

Here is how CAPS took the news - in tweets & RTs.








*CAPS* ‏@*captiveanimals* 24h24 hours ago

This is a great victory for captive animals and a sign of changing times #*boycottanimalcircuses* #*RinglingBros*

The closure of Ringling Bros. circus ends 146 years of animal humiliation for human amusement. Good riddance.

1,008 replies 12,324 retweets 40,772 likes

And this >>>>








*CAPS*‏@*captiveanimals* Jan 14

We will continue campaigning until all UK circuses are free of animal suffering #*animalsarenotclowns*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> No I knew he wouldn't to you


or Kim.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> Looks quite distressed doesn't he. I'm sure he will be ok once settled though


I wouldn't say he looks distressed, more overwhelmed at first but he is soon having a scratch and a roach. Of course it will take time for him to know this is his home and he isn't going to be yanked out at any minute to perform tricks and be shunted around in a lorry every few weeks.


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## Laney_Lemons (Mar 23, 2016)

circus's are so cruel ... 

I used to love the zoo as a child ...Then i grew up and looked at the cheetah in Belfast zoo and thought my dog gets more stimulation and walks that him


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> Agree with CAPS on zoos, but these animals have lived a miserable existence in a circus & will hopefully be cared by a responsible sanctuary, which should seem like heaven to them compared to what went before.
> 
> Here is how CAPS took the news - in tweets & RTs.
> 
> ...


I wish I hadn't watched that, is was heartbreaking how people can treat animals that way is beyound me, all they think about is money.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> Looks quite distressed doesn't he. I'm sure he will be ok once settled though


 Can you explain how you came to the conclusion he was distressed?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> a bit OT but if you click on the link it takes you to a twitter video of a lion rescued from a circus and taken to a zoo and being release into a pen and really enjoying himself .
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/820809463632248833"


Wow that was lovely to watch, when he first went out and could feel the ground under his paws one happy lion, no doubt it will take time for him to completey settle but a very good start.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

How many of us sit down with our cup of tea/coffee and biscuit to watch crufts .Ever thought that its nothing more than a circus which of course it is at what point will activists attempt to destroy that institution on the grounds that animals are being exploited .There have been far more members of the public pprosecuted for animal cruelty than professionals. Are we looking forward to the demise of crufts and all the local shows to dog obedience classes to show training classes because these animals are being trained to be unnatural to do our bidding . Where does this all end are you prepared to give up your pet dog because its not being allowed to live a natural life constrained caged except for walkies .Or your cat because of the unnatural life forced on it in some cases never allowed out the so called house pet .Is the birds that you have in a cage, never allowed to fly free , living in optimum circumstances having a good life ? Are you sure positive that the pet you love so dearly is in fact happy with the constraints that we humans have prescribed on their lives are in fact the best do some soul searching on this then put up your point of view are we not all in a way minor zoo keepers and to all who sit with their tea/coffee and biscuit watching Crufts just subscribing to the CIRCUS ?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

sandy68 said:


> How many of us sit down with our cup of tea/coffee and biscuit to watch crufts .Ever thought that its nothing more than a circus which of course it is at what point will activists attempt to destroy that institution on the grounds that animals are being exploited .There have been far more members of the public pprosecuted for animal cruelty than professionals. Are we looking forward to the demise of crufts and all the local shows to dog obedience classes to show training classes because these animals are being trained to be unnatural to do our bidding . Where does this all end are you prepared to give up your pet dog because its not being allowed to live a natural life constrained caged except for walkies .Or your cat because of the unnatural life forced on it in some cases never allowed out the so called house pet .Is the birds that you have in a cage, never allowed to fly free , living in optimum circumstances having a good life ? Are you sure positive that the pet you love so dearly is in fact happy with the constraints that we humans have prescribed on their lives are in fact the best do some soul searching on this then put up your point of view are we not all in a way minor zoo keepers and to all who sit with their tea/coffee and biscuit watching Crufts just subscribing to the CIRCUS ?


:Hilarious:Hilarious Are you watching a different Crufts to me? The one I watch has domesticated pet dogs, not wild animals  The dogs then get to go home afterwards, they're not shoved into a small crate and transported to the next venue.
My dog isn't "constrained to a cage except for walkies" If that's what you do with your dog then you really need to address that as it's cruel.

I assume you're trying to imply that my house is "the cage" so I'd like to point out a few discrepancies.
1. My house is significantly bigger than an animals cage in the circus.
2. My dog is significantly smaller than most circus animals.
3. My dog is a domesticated pet, not a wild animal.
4. My dog gets to exercise in numerous environments, not just in a circus ring.

And yes, I am in fact positive that all my pets are happy and living the best life possible for them.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sandy68 said:


> How many of us sit down with our cup of tea/coffee and biscuit to watch crufts .Ever thought that its nothing more than a circus which of course it is at what point will activists attempt to destroy that institution on the grounds that animals are being exploited .There have been far more members of the public pprosecuted for animal cruelty than professionals. Are we looking forward to the demise of crufts and all the local shows to dog obedience classes to show training classes because these animals are being trained to be unnatural to do our bidding . Where does this all end are you prepared to give up your pet dog because its not being allowed to live a natural life constrained caged except for walkies .Or your cat because of the unnatural life forced on it in some cases never allowed out the so called house pet .Is the birds that you have in a cage, never allowed to fly free , living in optimum circumstances having a good life ? Are you sure positive that the pet you love so dearly is in fact happy with the constraints that we humans have prescribed on their lives are in fact the best do some soul searching on this then put up your point of view are we not all in a way minor zoo keepers and to all who sit with their tea/coffee and biscuit watching Crufts just subscribing to the CIRCUS ?


So to turn the tables on you like I did earlier in the thread but you didn't answer me - do you think we should ignore all forms of animal cruelty and exploitation just because we have pets?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

sandy68 said:


> How many of us sit down with our cup of tea/coffee and biscuit to watch crufts .Ever thought that its nothing more than a circus which of course it is at what point will activists attempt to destroy that institution on the grounds that animals are being exploited .There have been far more members of the public pprosecuted for animal cruelty than professionals. Are we looking forward to the demise of crufts and all the local shows to dog obedience classes to show training classes because these animals are being trained to be unnatural to do our bidding . Where does this all end are you prepared to give up your pet dog because its not being allowed to live a natural life constrained caged except for walkies .Or your cat because of the unnatural life forced on it in some cases never allowed out the so called house pet .Is the birds that you have in a cage, never allowed to fly free , living in optimum circumstances having a good life ? Are you sure positive that the pet you love so dearly is in fact happy with the constraints that we humans have prescribed on their lives are in fact the best do some soul searching on this then put up your point of view are we not all in a way minor zoo keepers and to all who sit with their tea/coffee and biscuit watching Crufts just subscribing to the CIRCUS ?


Actually there are some that campaign to stop dog shows.
Quite frankly I find it beyond ridiculous when you try to compare the life of a pet show dog or domesticated cat to that of a wild animal.
To try to justify the cruelty that happens in circuses (I am not just on about physical...the mental cruelty is a daily thing) because we have dog shows and keep pets is just laughable...sorry, but it is!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@sandy68 you have made some points that aren't relevant to this thread but make for an interesting discussion !

FYI I don't watch Crufts !


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Cows, sheep and pigs are domesticated animals wouldnt you agree ?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Its called muddying the waters so that the real issue being discussed - that of cruelty to circus animals and what happens to any of those animals when circuses close down is lost amongst a load of nonsense about dog shows and farm animals.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Cage method of constrainment . Constrain to hold confined as in a cow , sheep confined to a field , house cat confined to house . Lead on a dog constrained the list goes on and on .


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sandy68 said:


> Cage method of constrainment . Constrain to hold confined as in a cow , sheep confined to a field , house cat confined to house . Lead on a dog constrained the list goes on and on .


So you think constraining a circus animal in a small cage and transporting it around the countryside in a lorry (which an animal like an elephant finds it hard to balance in) then making it perform tricks is the same as keeping a sheep in a field or a dog on a lead :Joyful


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Im not trying to muddy waters I never said that I was in favour of circuses what I'm saying is where does this type of thing end and at what point does it begin to effect us people who have pets and love them dearly .I deeply resent the implication that I mistreat my pet try reading what I said and try wondering whether these animal rights people have a greater plan in mind that includes us and our pets ....maybe in their eyes all of our pets would be better euthanized than live within the restraints we keep them under .....HOW SAFE ARE OUR PETS FROM THEM.......


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Oh stop being so melodramatic. I was heavily involved with animal rights aged 20 - 30, I'm not anymore for various reasons - my own sanity and keeping myself out of prison being the main ones. I have never met a single person involved with animal rights who wanted to stop people keeping pets as long as they are well looked after and loved. I know PETA have campaigned against pet ownership but they are the absolute extreme end of a very diverse group of people. Who do you think "animal rights people" actually are? during my active days I was a qualified nurse and part of an organisation of doctors and nurses against vivisection, my OH is a professional too. Yes we met some people who were a bit extreme but most were decent kind people who care passionately about animals and want to see an end to abuse and cruelty. The vast majority had a house full of pets too (usually ones other people have discarded) If you look after your pets properly you have nothing to worry about.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

sandy68 said:


> Im not trying to muddy waters I never said that I was in favour of circuses what I'm saying is where does this type of thing end and at what point does it begin to effect us people who have pets and love them dearly .I deeply resent the implication that I mistreat my pet try reading what I said and try wondering whether these animal rights people have a greater plan in mind that includes us and our pets ....maybe in their eyes all of our pets would be better euthanized than live within the restraints we keep them under .....HOW SAFE ARE OUR PETS FROM THEM.......


As with the raptor persecution thread you appear to have been extremely misinformed.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

sandy68 said:


> Im not trying to muddy waters I never said that I was in favour of circuses what I'm saying is where does this type of thing end and at what point does it begin to effect us people who have pets and love them dearly .I deeply resent the implication that I mistreat my pet try reading what I said and try wondering whether these animal rights people have a greater plan in mind that includes us and our pets ....maybe in their eyes all of our pets would be better euthanized than live within the restraints we keep them under .....HOW SAFE ARE OUR PETS FROM THEM.......


So start another thread about it, then !
You seem to brand anyone who cares about animals as crazy animal rights people.
There is tremendous cruelty towards animals of all types and it needs to be stopped in all areas .
If "crazy animal rights people " don't do anything, who will? 
There are many decent organisations out there who do a good job , and they need all the support they get .


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

I was merely setting another point of view for dicussion.
And I can assure you my pets care is not something I have to worry over .
In your answer you say you were an activist Well jolly good for you rescueing animals from experimental science , And perhaps putting all in danger by your actions what a real clever person you are ....


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sandy68 said:


> I was merely setting another point of view for dicussion.
> And I can assure you my pets care is not something I have to worry over .
> In your answer you say you were an activist Well jolly good for you rescueing animals from experimental science , And perhaps putting all in danger by your actions what a real clever person you are ....


Who said I rescued animals from experimental science? You clearly have no knowledge or understanding about what animal rights activists do so I would stop digging now, you are making yourself look silly.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Oh stop being so melodramatic. I was heavily involved with animal rights aged 20 - 30, I'm not anymore for various reasons - my own sanity and keeping myself out of prison being the main ones. I have never met a single person involved with animal rights who wanted to stop people keeping pets as long as they are well looked after and loved. I know PETA have campaigned against pet ownership but they are the absolute extreme end of a very diverse group of people. Who do you think "animal rights people" actually are? during my active days I was a qualified nurse and part of an organisation of doctors and nurses against vivisection, my OH is a professional too. Yes we met some people who were a bit extreme but most were decent kind people who care passionately about animals and want to see an end to abuse and cruelty. The vast majority had a house full of pets too (usually ones other people have discarded) If you look after your pets properly you have nothing to worry about.


by what you say above you implied as much


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Keeping yourself out of prison


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sandy68 said:


> Keeping yourself out of prison


Keeping myself out of prison does not imply I rescued animals from experimental science. Do you seriously think I would say on an open public forum what activities I took part in?


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Nevertheless that is precisely what you implied ..


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sandy68 said:


> Nevertheless that is precisely what you implied ..


I did not imply I personally rescued experimental animals. If you have chosen to interpret the words "keeping myself out of prison" as meaning I did then that is your problem and again shows you have no understanding of what these "animal rights activists" you so dislike actually do. Why don't you try and meet some and actually talk to them instead of jumping to huge conclusions.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

You made that implication when you mentioned vivisection did you not?


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> Quite frankly I find it beyond ridiculous when you try to compare the life of a pet show dog or domesticated cat to that of a wild animal.


I do too. 
Unfortunately, AR activists are using the same arguments they used to shut down Ringling Brothers (good thing) to try and get dog shows shut down. They're making the comparisons (which I agree, are ludicrous), and people are listening.

Just this morning someone shared a petition to get agility and greyhound racing stopped. I'm not exactly sure why greyhound racing and agility are lumped together, and why other dog sports weren't included, but it does get frightening when you look at the overall agenda behind what PeTA is trying to get accomplished (no owned animals at all, not even pets).


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sandy68 said:


> You made that implication when you mentioned vivisection did you not?


No I did not make any such implication. If you mention the word bank does that imply you intend to rob it?


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

ouesi said:


> I do too.
> Unfortunately, AR activists are using the same arguments they used to shut down Ringling Brothers (good thing) to try and get dog shows shut down. They're making the comparisons (which I agree, are ludicrous), and people are listening.
> 
> Just this morning someone shared a petition to get agility and greyhound racing stopped. I'm not exactly sure why greyhound racing and agility are lumped together, and why other dog sports weren't included, but it does get frightening when you look at the overall agenda behind what PeTA is trying to get accomplished (no owned animals at all, not even pets).


that is exactly what I was bringing up , at last someone with rational thought


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sandy68 said:


> that is exactly what I was bringing up , at last someone with rational thought


@ouesi is talking about PETA who we already established are the very extreme end of a wide range of people and views. You know a bit like football fans, most are perfectly normal, well behaved individuals, some get a bit rowdy when they've had too much to drink and some are hooligans who give the sport a bad name.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No I did not make any such implication. If you mention the word bank does that imply you intend to rob it?


understand I do not like what seems to me to be a personal vendetta against me by yourself .
go back and read with thought what I said in the beginning and try to understand I'm not attacking anyone simply making a point of view .
end of


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sandy68 said:


> understand I do not like what seems to me to be a personal vendetta against me by yourself .
> go back and read with thought what I said in the beginning and try to understand I'm not attacking anyone simply making a point of view .
> end of


Absolutely no personal vendetta against anyone, just answering your posts which is what a discussion forum is all about. If you are unhappy with my responses either put me on ignore or report me to a moderator.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

The ultimate question is....... Where does this all end are our pets safe?....... Which concerns me acutely , and yourself I believe sincerely judging by the way you have jumped up in their defence for which I commend you .
I feel no need to either ignore you or to use a moderator


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

sandy68 said:


> I was merely setting another point of view for dicussion.
> And I can assure you my pets care is not something I have to worry over .
> In your answer you say you were an activist Well jolly good for you rescueing animals from experimental science , And perhaps putting all in danger by your actions what a real clever person you are ....


"The Devil Wins When Good Men Do Nothing".

You may choose to have no part in protecting animals, but don't label those who do as "Crazy".


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

sandy68 said:


> that is exactly what I was bringing up , at last someone with rational thought


No it isn't!
You came in to moan that no one thinks of the animals when they campaign to stop cruelty.
Your exact words:-


sandy68 said:


> People seem to forget that in their efforts to protect animals, that the consequences for the animals they have saved , is to be euthanized out of hand, while they go around clapping themselves on the back making speeches about what a great day its been.


And then went on to compare domestic pets with wild animals being made to perform for human entertainment.

Had you said what @ouesi said then I would have agreed with your point...


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Sweety said:


> "The Devil Wins When Good Men Do Nothing".
> 
> You may choose to have no part in protecting animals, but don't label those who do as "Crazy".


cant see where I state that I did not say crazy at anytime .


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

I was however making a comment about greyhound racing and agility


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

[QUOTE="ouesi, post:

Just this morning someone shared a petition to get agility and greyhound racing stopped. I'm not exactly sure why greyhound racing and agility are lumped together, and why other dog sports weren't included, but it does get frightening when you look at the overall agenda behind what PeTA is trying to get accomplished (no owned animals at all, not even pets).[/QUOTE] 
this one


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2017)

To clarify, I am very glad to see the use of wild animals in circus acts go away.

I can't say I'm glad the whole industry is shutting down because I do feel for the human lives and livelihoods affected. There is definitely a way for Ringling Brothers to continue as a circus without including animals in any of its acts, just as Cirque de Soleil does. 
I will reluctantly agree that it's probably better for the animals to be euthanized, rather than caged somewhere else, but I also think some of those animals could have at least found a sanctuary to "retire" to. The whole thing is just a mess, and yes, it is better for wild animals not to be used in Circuses at all. 

Like so many things though, the devil is in the details. 
Animals like elephants and big cats have no place performing for humans, that should be clear to anyone with half a brain. 
But what about the horse acts? A cruel handler can make those performances a misery, but a kind handler can make those horses lives a joy and the horses can be just as well cared for as any other horse. 
What about the dog acts? Again it's not the act that's the issue, most circus acts with dogs aren't that much different than what you might see in an advanced HWTM routine. Trained humanely and with the dogs kept well, I have no issue. 

So it becomes a slippery slope. If we decide that horse acts in the circus are cruel, what becomes of sports like dressage? 
If we decide that dog acts in a circus are cruel, what happens to HWTM?
Is that a precedent we want to set?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

sandy68 said:


> I was however making a comment about greyhound racing and agility


I'm so confused now. What do you have against agility?


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

HWTM ? please explain


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

sandy68 said:


> The ultimate question is....... Where does this all end are our pets safe?.....


So you don't want to rescue any circus animals in case one day we wont be allowed to keep pets .

I think that's rather selfish attitjde and not a good enough reason to ignore cruelty .

As has already been said All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Apart from Peta , is there any other organisation that wants to stop people owning pets ?


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Why have you assumed that I have anything against agility ? I just want to know where does all this lead and where does it end ?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm so confused now. What do you have against agility?


I assume huge chunks of posts have been deleted because nothing makes sense to me anymore :Wacky I've definitely missed the bit were RPH became the crazy caped crusader and admitted breaking into animal testing facilities.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Kim your twisting my words to suit yourself .I never said we as a society shouldn't rescue animals but that safe provision should be made for those animals which does not include euthanasia we should be more responsible for our actions .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

sandy68 said:


> Kim your twisting my words to suit yourself .I never said we as a society shouldn't rescue animals but that safe provision should be made for those animals which does not include euthanasia we should be more responsible for our actions .


No , I am not . I'm trying to understand you . I'm sure I'm not the only one to find your posts confusing.

Well as I said before , I would hope the rescuers and organisations would provide places that meet a good standard . If no place can be found , you think the animals should stay in the circuses etc rather than be put to sleep despite suffering ?


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

sandy68 said:


> How many of us sit down with our cup of tea/coffee and biscuit to watch crufts .Ever thought that its nothing more than a circus which of course it is at what point will activists attempt to destroy that institution on the grounds that animals are being exploited .There have been far more members of the public pprosecuted for animal cruelty than professionals. Are we looking forward to the demise of crufts and all the local shows to dog obedience classes to show training classes because these animals are being trained to be unnatural to do our bidding . Where does this all end are you prepared to give up your pet dog because its not being allowed to live a natural life constrained caged except for walkies .Or your cat because of the unnatural life forced on it in some cases never allowed out the so called house pet .Is the birds that you have in a cage, never allowed to fly free , living in optimum circumstances having a good life ? Are you sure positive that the pet you love so dearly is in fact happy with the constraints that we humans have prescribed on their lives are in fact the best do some soul searching on this then put up your point of view are we not all in a way minor zoo keepers and to all who sit with their tea/coffee and biscuit watching Crufts just subscribing to the CIRCUS ?


where does it go where does it end are our faithful pets next was the question


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

sandy68 said:


> Kim your twisting my words to suit yourself .I never said we as a society shouldn't rescue animals but that safe provision should be made for those animals which does not include euthanasia we should be more responsible for our actions .


We dont live in a ideal world though, do we?

Simply put, there is not always going to be somewhere for these animals to go. Bit like with the 'surplus' of domestic pets that cant get into rescue as there just arent enough places. Or the zoo stock that is killed every year as they dont have room, or they are no good for breeding, or they no longer fit in the herd/pack etc.

I dont agree with this 'life at any cost' attitude so many have. In the cases of abused animals, animals that have severe behavioural issues etc, i think humane euthanasia is in their best interests. Its not fair on so many of them to have their existences extended, to be drugged, shipped about, poked, prodded, herded, just so that people can feel good about themselves and the lives they feel they have 'liberated'.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

sandy68 said:


> Kim your twisting my words to suit yourself .I never said we as a society shouldn't rescue animals but that safe provision should be made for those animals which does not include euthanasia we should be more responsible for our actions .


What value does life have for any animal where that life is a miserable existence?

There are worse things for an animal than being humanely put to sleep.

Do you really believe it's preferable to leave any animal in a situation where it's suffering on a daily basis rather than end it's life?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

We don't live in an ideal world ..... and is that the problem or just an excuse?


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2017)

sandy68 said:


> HWTM ? please explain


Heel work to music


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Kim the question is how safe are our pets my original post you quoted sets out lots of things that could be said against us as pet owners lovers In the future will our need for the companionship of our pets be taken from us by so called do gooding activists ?
it was nothing more than food for thought....


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

ouesi said:


> Heel work to music


thank you I would have been all night trying to work that out


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

sandy68 said:


> We don't live in an ideal world ..... and is that the problem or just an excuse?


Neither.

Its reality.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

sandy68 said:


> Cows, sheep and pigs are domesticated animals wouldnt you agree ?


These animals, unless genetically messed about with by man could all survive if turned loose in a free environment. Many dogs would not.



sandy68 said:


> Kim the question is how safe are our pets my original post you quoted sets out lots of things that could be said against us as pet owners lovers In the future will our need for the companionship of our pets be taken from us by so called do gooding activists ?
> it was nothing more than food for thought....


Depends what you class as pets........Is a Meerket a pet? I think not, and there's plenty of others called pets that aren't


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

I'm talking about what most people class as pets dogs , cats etc you know what I mean unless you have a gorilla in the cupboard you dont do you ?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

On the telly tonight 11pm BBC 4 Storyville : Circus Elephant rampage : The story of Tyke , the elephant that went on the rampage in honolulu



.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/19/tyke-elephant-honolulu-circus_n_5689932.html

For nearly 30 minutes, Tyke ran through the streets of the Kakaako neighborhood's business district at rush hour, nearly trampling circus promoter Steve Hirano when he tried to fence her in. It was a foot chase between her and the Honolulu police, who eventually shot her 87 times before she succumbed to nerve damage and brain hemorrhages. People watched aghast from their cars, apartments and the sidewalk.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

sandy68 said:


> I'm talking about what most people class as pets dogs , cats etc you know what I mean unless you have a gorilla in the cupboard you dont do you ?


Sorry, but you're beginning to sound a little desperate and very silly.

If you were trying to make a point, you lost it about four posts ago.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

sandy68 said:


> I'm talking about what most people class as pets dogs , cats etc you know what I mean unless you have a gorilla in the cupboard you dont do you ?


Many many people class snakes, iguanas and spiders as pets. What animals are you actually talking about other than simply dog and cats?


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Sweety thanks for your opinion


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

sandy68 said:


> Sweety thanks for your opinion


You're welcome.


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## sandy68 (Jan 5, 2017)

Rona anything you want to call a pet I'm happy with my dog and fish .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> On the telly tonight 11pm BBC 4 Storyville : Circus Elephant rampage : The story of Tyke , the elephant that went on the rampage in honolulu
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's so sad


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

sandy68 said:


> How many of us sit down with our cup of tea/coffee and biscuit to watch crufts .Ever thought that its nothing more than a circus which of course it is at what point will activists attempt to destroy that institution on the grounds that animals are being exploited .There have been far more members of the public pprosecuted for animal cruelty than professionals. Are we looking forward to the demise of crufts and all the local shows to dog obedience classes to show training classes because these animals are being trained to be unnatural to do our bidding . Where does this all end are you prepared to give up your pet dog because its not being allowed to live a natural life constrained caged except for walkies .Or your cat because of the unnatural life forced on it in some cases never allowed out the so called house pet .Is the birds that you have in a cage, never allowed to fly free , living in optimum circumstances having a good life ? Are you sure positive that the pet you love so dearly is in fact happy with the constraints that we humans have prescribed on their lives are in fact the best do some soul searching on this then put up your point of view are we not all in a way minor zoo keepers and to all who sit with their tea/coffee and biscuit watching Crufts just subscribing to the CIRCUS ?


I haven't seen any dog been whipped wth a stick to get them to run round the show ring they seem to really love it, although I feel sorry for them when waiting to shown. A while back Amber sister who was at the time one the Best Braird in Europe, she loved the show ring so much so when they went to shows and she was to old to show when the judging was over they would still run round the show ring as she loves it so much.

Oh and Fly Bal, oh boy to those dogs love that,


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2017)

Just to offer the other side, this is written by a Ringling Brother's employee. I am deeply sad for the many people who have lost their livelihood...
https://www.quora.com/How-do-worker...shutdown-of-the-circus/answer/Megan-OMalley-3


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I dont feel an ounce of sympathy for anyone who worked in an environment where beautiful wild animals were treated like this > https://www.thedodo.com/ringling-bros-circus-close-down-2182308918.html?platform=hootsuite


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> I haven't seen any dog been whipped wth a stick to get them to run round the show ring they seem to really love it, although I feel sorry for them when waiting to shown. A while back Amber sister who was at the time one the Best Braird in Europe, she loved the show ring so much so when they went to shows and she was to old to show when the judging was over they would still run round the show ring as she loves it so much.
> 
> Oh and Fly Bal, oh boy to those dogs love that,


But then not all circus animals get beaten. I'm quite sure a great many show dogs get cruelly treat as a great many pets do. I'm also certain, after spending time around dog shows for a couple of years that as many dogs hate showing as love it

A show ring for pets is still a circus


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> On the telly tonight 11pm BBC 4 Storyville : Circus Elephant rampage : The story of Tyke , the elephant that went on the rampage in honolulu
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Watched this on iPlayer last night. Anyone who thinks it is ever acceptable to use wild animals in circuses needs to see it. Elephants in particular are so intelligent (emotionally too) and with their massive size have complex needs. Absolutely broke my heart seeing what happened to Tyke, in her life and in her final hours.
I feel for those who have lost their jobs at Ringling but there is no justifying these wild animal acts imo.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Just to offer the other side, this is written by a Ringling Brother's employee. I am deeply sad for the many people who have lost their livelihood...
> https://www.quora.com/How-do-worker...shutdown-of-the-circus/answer/Megan-OMalley-3


I too feel sorry for people who have lost their job and need to deal with finding new jobs and homes but that is part of life. Lots of people have to face this issue every single day and whilst I would not rejoice in it I don't think their jobs are an excuse to carry on exploiting animals. Otherwise what about the families of those people who club baby seals to death in Canada? or the families of people who make their living out of dog fighting? We have to move forward and accept that society is changing and we have to move with it otherwise how is progress ever made?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

ouesi said:


> I am deeply sad for the many people who have lost their livelihood...


Well I'm don't, I'm just glad they have.

How can you feel sorry for people who do this, in the pictures below posted by "noushka05"



noushka05 said:


> I dont feel an ounce of sympathy for anyone who worked in an environment where beautiful wild animals were treated like this > https://www.thedodo.com/ringling-bros-circus-close-down-2182308918.html?platform=hootsuite
> View attachment 297761


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

From the link provided by @noushka05 which shows why this had to close. Absolutely the right thing to happen.










Elephants performing at a Ringling Bros. showShutterstock

The circus has come under fire in recent years for its long history of animal welfare issues, ranging from cruel training practices and the use of bull hooks (sharp, pointed instruments that trainers use to control elephants), to several untimely deaths of baby elephants. In 2004, a young lion died after being left in a sweltering train car without water - more recently, in 2014, Ringling Bros. refused calls to retire a circus elephant after she was shot in the neck during a drive-by shooting, forcing her back on the road a year later. The circus has received more than 50 animal welfare citations from the USDA since 1993.










A baby elephant being "trained" at Ringling Bros.' Center for Elephant ConservationSam Haddock/PETA

With concern mounting among the public, Ringling Bros. announced in 2015 that it would be phasing out its elephant shows - the elephants performed in their last show early last year.

But there were still lingering concerns. For one, many people questioned Ringling Bros.' decision to send its retired elephants to Florida's Center for Elephant Conservation, the headquarters of the circus' breeding efforts and questionable training programs, instead of an accredited sanctuary.

The circus also continued to use other animals in its shows - including big cats, whose plight often fell below the radar as they weren't as iconic as the circus elephants. But an investigation released last fall revealed Ringling Bros. was a nightmare for them, too.










Two tigers fighting in a parking lot behind a Ringling Bros. showJay Pratte

According to Jay Pratte, a 25-year veteran animal trainer who conducted the investigation, tigers spent days at a time in tiny pens in parking lots, with no enrichment or room to run. Despite being solitary animals, the cats were packed several to a cage, resulting in frequent fights.

Some tigers were covered in scars or obese from the lack of exercise - others had cracked paws and graphic joint injuries from being forced to live on the hard concrete instead of more natural turf.

"What is actually occurring is environmental and physiological neglect, psychological abuse, and coercing the tigers to behave through dominance and fear-based techniques," Pratte said - noting that, like the elephants, the tigers were controlled through physical force. "The big cats … are managed through fear, coercion, and punishment," he explained.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

rona said:


> But then not all circus animals get beaten.


Well I don't beat Dillon when he wont give me a toy thrown for him or won't give me his paw when I ask, but then I'm not trying to make lots of money out of him as the circus is, if their animal they wont work, they loss money :Rage


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

I think what @ouesi may have referred to in her comment about feeling sorry for the other employees (correct me if I am wrong), is that the whole circus has shut down along with the industry surrounding it. The circus could have if they have chosen to operated without animals like some other circus acts and thus people could have kept there jobs and livelihoods. My guess though the name would be forever tainted now though and probably the more aggressive "animal rights" protectors would probably still have pursued them.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

stuaz said:


> I think what @ouesi may have referred to in her comment about feeling sorry for the other employees (correct me if I am wrong), is that the whole circus has shut down along with the industry surrounding it. The circus could have if they have chosen to operated without animals like some other circus acts and thus people could have kept there jobs and livelihoods. My guess though the name would be forever tainted now though and probably the more aggressive "animal rights" protectors would probably still have pursued them.


From what I have been reading, that's pretty much the case - the name wasn't viable due to the long term associations and vilification, and there have been some hints that 'AR' groups would have continued to pursue the company even if it changed it's name once animal free.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

*Sorry off thread,* as for Crufts, yes it is a circus have you seen the clowns running round the ring with the dogs, sometimes I laugh so much I nearly wet myself all those boobs bouncing around. (sorry )


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2017)

Yes, thank you @stuaz I was referring to all the people involved in the circus, not just the animal acts.

Apparently not everyone chose to read the link, but it was written by a circus musician. She has nothing to do with the animal acts though she did say that she herself never witnessed any abuse. I believe her. I don't think all circus animal trainers are abusive any more than I think all dog trainers are abusive despite the popularity of the likes of CM and the CM wannabes.

I happen to think it wrong to keep wild animals in captivity at all, so I am against elephants, bears, tigers, etc. being part of a circus act. I'm also very much against animals like foxes being kept as pets - for the same reasons. Yet we don't assume everyone who keeps a fox as a pet is abusive do we?

When I was very young, my grandfather found an orphaned crow and brought him home (now days you would have to take an animal like that to a wildlife rehab facility). The crow lived as a pet with my grandfather forever. He eventually left but would continue to come back and visit. 
Like so many things there are degrees of captivity and degrees of acquiring wild animals as pets. What my grandfather did doesn't bother me. Had he gone out and found a nest on purpose in order to raid it and start a breeding program and sell crows as pets, I'd have a huge issue with that.

Back to the circus, I don't have a problem with horse or dog acts, some of which can be incredibly beautiful and show a deep connection between handlers and the animals. 
I most definitely don't have any issue with the acrobats, the musicians, the clowns, the human performers. And yes, I do feel empathy for them who have lost their livelihoods because of this. Many of these people have been circus performers for generations. They don't know anything else, they don't have a home, they don't have any education in the classical sense. What are they to do?

I find some of the comments about the circus people quite frightening really. Surely compassion is compassion and is not dependent on species? Is human compassion not as valid as compassion for animals? Do the two not go hand in hand?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't think that (with or without animals ) circuses are so popular anymore , perhaps outdated?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

The circus still travels our part of the world - mostly animal free but occasionally horses and dogs - and unless it is the Chinese or Russian State then they aren't well attended. Some of them are very small and seem to be almost training circuses - I think they spend a season honing their act then meet up with their parent circus to go into a bigger show. Some of them are pretty bad but not all, and one thing I like is you maybe have 20 people doing everything - so the acrobats are taking tickets, selling popcorn,doing their act, being a stooge for the clown or whatever, and I bet some of them put the tent up and make the costumes as well. It all looks to be run on an absolute shoestring but they could teach anyone something about planning and teamwork.. I don't think any circus with wild animals would get a licence from our council but if it did, it would be run out of town before they got the tent up.
I think people aren't impressed enough by physical skills and dedication and don't appreciate how much goes in to spinning by your hair, or juggling fire on a tightrope. I also think many have a problematic relationship with clowns which keeps them away, and many aren't prepared to sit on a bench in a tent in a field on a dank February Monday night, when the sofa and the telly are so much easier. In many ways it is a shame - I'd far rather listen to a reasonable musician in a local venue that a superstar in a stadium, and that's the vibe you get in a travelling show.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> Well I don't beat Dillon when he wont give me a toy thrown for him or won't give me his paw when I ask, but then I'm not trying to make lots of money out of him as the circus is, if their animal they wont work, they loss money :Rage


Neither have I but many do, does that mean by association we are guilty as all the circuses are deemed so?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Yes, thank you @stuaz I was referring to all the people involved in the circus, not just the animal acts.
> 
> Apparently not everyone chose to read the link, but it was written by a circus musician. She has nothing to do with the animal acts though she did say that she herself never witnessed any abuse. I believe her. I don't think all circus animal trainers are abusive any more than I think all dog trainers are abusive despite the popularity of the likes of CM and the CM wannabes.
> 
> ...


I read it and yes as I said I do feel sorry for those people not involved in animal acts who have lost their jobs and their homes, because she didn't see the abuse doesn't mean it isn't going on as shown in the link I quoted from @noushka05 's post - they have received over 50 animal welfare citations since 1993. I simply cannot believe that anyone on a pet lovers forum in any way condones or sticks up for this outdated form of entertainment. Perhaps we should bring back bear baiting too as it would give jobs to the people who trap them/train them and set dogs on them.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I simply cannot believe that anyone on a pet lovers forum in any way condones or sticks up for this outdated form of entertainment. Perhaps we should bring back bear baiting too as it would give jobs to the people who trap them/train them and set dogs on them.


What is the point of this comment? Especially the last part? 
Has anyone on this thread condoned anything remotely like bear baiting?

You quoted me on this post, is this directed at me?
At what point did I condone or stick up for abuse of any animal?

This is where I step away, because it ends up feeling too much like less of an interest in the animals we're talking about, and more of an effort at gaining a moral high ground at the expense of human decency. 
You're basically accusing me of condoning animal cruelty, which for anyone who knows anything about me (which I would hope you do from our many exchanges on this site) is incredibly insulting and frankly hurtful that you would even suggest that.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I'm simply presenting the rest of the story. While everyone is celebrating the end of Ringling Brothers, and I'm right there with you celebrating the end of exploitation of wild animals, I'm NOT celebrating the end of a way of life for many people and their beloved pets and animal charges who have absolutely nothing to do with cruel and abusive practices and don't deserve the hate and vitriol thrown at them.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> because she didn't see the abuse doesn't mean it isn't going on


Of course abuse happens, I've never said otherwise. But not ALL circus animals are abused. Just because some dog trainers are abusive doesn't mean ALL dog trainers are.

My issue is with the use of wild animals. Not all the wild animals are abused, but NONE should be kept confined to a cage at all, not in sanctuaries, nor zoos, nor in circuses. But not every animal used in circus acts are wild animals. But a circus can still operate without the use of wild animals, and as for the people being affected, if Ringling Brothers had just stopped the wild animal acts but continued a la Cirque de Soleil, so many people wouldn't be without a job, a home, a livelihood, a future for their children...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I simply cannot believe that anyone on a pet lovers forum in any way condones or sticks up for this outdated form of entertainment


Not seen anyone do that. Seen people accused of it, but just as with all circuses being abusive to animals, it just ain't true


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

. sorry posted without replying. Will try again.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> What is the point of this comment? Especially the last part?
> Has anyone on this thread condoned anything remotely like bear baiting?
> 
> You quoted me on this post, is this directed at me?
> ...


I didn't say anyone had condoned bear baiting, I said perhaps we should bring it back to give jobs to people if the loss of jobs is the main issue here rather than the animals welfare. Of course it wasn't directed at you, if it had been I would have made it very clear and I didn't. It was a general comment about some of the posts on this thread (which I should have paragraphed to separate from my reply to you) which seem to be suggesting we should not campaign against circuses because a) some animals might be euthanized and b) some people might lose their jobs and c) some of the animals have ended up in places that do not meet every standard of animal care even though they are far better from where they came from and d)not all circuses are abusive to animals. I've already said twice now that I do feel sorry for the staff not involved with the animal side of things who are losing their jobs and homes but I'm not feeling sorry for those women riding elephants in the photos or the people who caged those tigers or the staff involved in the incidents that resulted in 50 animal welfare citations.



rona said:


> Not seen anyone do that. Seen people accused of it, but just as with all circuses being abusive to animals, it just ain't true


So you find it unacceptable for Anne the elephant to be kept at Longleat despite the fact she is well looked after, has medical care, has an enrichment area where she can wallow or play in sand, an outside area, a pool and pretty much everyone agrees she is better off than she was apart from not having another elephant for company but your don't find it unacceptable for circuses to cage/travel/force animals to perform tricks. I find that rather confusing to say the least.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So you find it unacceptable for Anne the elephant to be kept at Longleat despite the fact she is well looked after, has medical care, has an enrichment area where she can wallow or play in sand, an outside area, a pool and pretty much everyone agrees she is better off than she was apart from not having another elephant for company but your don't find it unacceptable for circuses to cage/travel/force animals to perform tricks. I find that rather confusing to say the least.


Rona never said that either, nor even remotely implied that. And she is not a member I'm going to go out of my way to defend, so that should tell you something about how you're coming across right now.

I happen to agree that it is unacceptable for Anne the elephant to be kept in an enclosure. I also think it's unacceptable for ANY elephant to be kept this way, just as unacceptable as keeping an orca in an enclosure. I don't care how deep, big, enriching etc, the enclosure is, Orcas aren't meant to be "kept" at all, nor are elephants. 
Just because I find "enriching" enclosures unacceptable doesn't mean I therefore think these animals should be caged and forced to perform under the big top. That's the epitome of faulty logic.

It also doesn't mean I think animals kept in enriching enclosures are being abused. I don't think Anne is being abused right now, but I don't agree with any elephant being kept that way.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So you find it unacceptable for Anne the elephant to be kept at Longleat despite the fact she is well looked after, has medical care, has an enrichment area where she can wallow or play in sand, an outside area, a pool and pretty much everyone agrees she is better off than she was apart from not having another elephant for company but your don't find it unacceptable for circuses to cage/travel/force animals to perform tricks. I find that rather confusing to say the least.


I think you need to go and read my posts again rather than jumping to the same kind of conclusions that Noushka does.

This is the whole trouble with the animal rights people, they never look at facts and they rubbish anyone elses opinions but their own.

To understand my point, you have to look at it in context not in emotion


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rona said:


> So would I, *but what if it's not abuse and the animals are having a better life *than they would couped up in a zoo cage?
> 
> I see zoos as far far worse





rona said:


> *They get far more stimulation*. I don't agree with circus animals, far from it, I think it's obscene, but don't hold up other animal exploitation as a better alternative without knowing how the animals are treated





rona said:


> So all circus keepers get tarred with the same brush because of that low life and Mary Chipperfield.
> 
> From what I can gather, there has only been 7 prosecutions in 100 yrs in UK
> 
> I can't find figures for USA


Those are some of the comments that I find confusing Rona. I don't think I have "rubbished" other people's opinions I thought I had debated them just like everyone else on this thread but yet again you are denigrating all "animal rights people"


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Rona never said that either, nor even remotely implied that. And she is not a member I'm going to go out of my way to defend, so that should tell you something about how you're coming across right now.
> 
> I happen to agree that it is unacceptable for Anne the elephant to be kept in an enclosure. I also think it's unacceptable for ANY elephant to be kept this way, just as unacceptable as keeping an orca in an enclosure. I don't care how deep, big, enriching etc, the enclosure is, Orcas aren't meant to be "kept" at all, nor are elephants.
> Just because I find "enriching" enclosures unacceptable doesn't mean I therefore think these animals should be caged and forced to perform under the big top. That's the epitome of faulty logic.
> ...


It is of no interest to me how you think I am coming across or whether you think Anne should be kept in an enclosure or not.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> It is of no interest to me how you think I am coming across or whether you think Anne should be kept in an enclosure or not.


It was enough of an interest to you to respond to my post 

Like I said, I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I'm just presenting my opinion on the issue. As are you.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> It is of no interest to me how you think I am coming across or whether you think Anne should be kept in an enclosure or not.


This is just shutting down any other opinion. I've tried time and time again to engage with the animal rights people of all sorts, as I agree with many of their views, but will not just agree to something I don't think is right. I very often agree with what is trying be achieved, I just don't like the lies and exaggeration that goes with it.
As soon as I ask a pertinent question, I either get abuse as I have on here (not from you) or I get banned and can no longer converse

PS. I never bought up Anne but once it was bought up I went and hunted for information, not my intention, the information I found, it was just there


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Those are some of the comments that I find confusing Rona. I don't think I have "rubbished" other people's opinions I thought I had debated them just like everyone else on this thread but yet again you are denigrating all "animal rights people"


Read the whole of the middle quote.It said

"I don't agree with circus animals, far from it, I think it's obscene, but don't hold up other animal exploitation as a better alternative without knowing how the animals are treated"


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> I think you need to go and read my posts again rather than jumping to the same kind of conclusions that Noushka does.
> 
> This is the whole trouble with the animal rights people, they never look at facts and they rubbish anyone elses opinions but their own.
> 
> To understand my point, you have to look at it in context not in emotion


When does animal welfare become animal rights ?

The videos that we see showing appalling conditions and in some cases, out right cruelty, at puppy farms , abbatoirs etc , are they're not facts because "activists" filmed them undercover ? We should be thanking them for putting themselves a risk and letting the world know .

Just out of curiosity which animal organisations *do* you approve of ?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Just out of curiosity which animal organisations *do* you approve of ?


Wildlife Trust in general but not ever one because each area is run quite separately

Compassion in World Farming

BTO again generally fact based but does occassionally quote the extremely biased RSPB

Abolishion of fur trade apart from bi products coming from food animals

Anti Snare campaign or any traps other than humane.....but then again, it depends what those humane traps are being used for

Uncaged in general principle

Antivivisection with reservations

There are more...............................

I actually agree with virtually all these people stand for but not every single detail and I'd like to be able to voice my opinion without being labeled uncaring. I love animals and I love the natural environment but you have to be real about this stuff.

Monkey World, How could I forget them, They are the brilliant


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Happy Paws rescue and my local Wildlife hospital


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I feel genuinely sorry for the people who have lost their jobs, their homes, and possibly the only life they've ever known, but it doesn't surprise me that circuses aren't getting the ticket sales they used to. Circus entertainment of any kind (animals or not) is really outdated now.

My brother worked for Duffys circus in the 80's so I got to go quite often. Every show was packed and people actually queued for tickets. The circus coming to town was really exciting! Nobody gets excited about it anymore.

We took our nieces about 10yrs ago and even then they were handing out half price ticket vouchers and giving away free popcorn to encourage people to come. Our nieces were bored and we left early. The things I found thrilling when I was a kid like the trapeze acts and the woman spinning round by her hair just didn't entertain them at all. They can watch stuff a lot crazier than that on YouTube.

FWIW, I don't think animal rights activists are totally to blame, nor can they take all the credit. Times have changed and kids want something more exciting than a clown falling over and spilling a giant hat full of confetti.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> But then not all circus animals get beaten. I'm quite sure a great many show dogs get cruelly treat as a great many pets do.* I'm also certain*, *after spending time around dog shows for a couple of years that as many dogs hate showing as love it*
> 
> A show ring for pets is still a circus


Using wild animals in circuses is cruel & indefensible. There are NO humane circuses that use wild animals & Ringlings animals are brutally treated. All my sympathies & my empathy is for these abused creatures so I was thrilled to hear another animal abusing circus is biting the dust. And there is absolutely no comparison to showing dogs. As for; "a_s many dogs hate showing as love it"_. I think you'll find dogs that hate showing don't tend to get very far in the ring - its pointless taking them.



rona said:


> I think you need to go and read my posts again rather than jumping to the same kind of conclusions that Noushka does.
> 
> This is the whole trouble with the animal rights people, they never look at facts and they rubbish anyone elses opinions but their own.
> 
> To understand my point, you have to look at it in context not in emotion


Thought my ears were burning again lol

But I can only rubbish your opinion when I have better facts than you  That's why you can never win argument on raptor persecution by grouse moors for example, because my facts are actually from credible sources. In fact you've been rubbishing your own opinions lately by validating credible sources which support MY argument. So thanks very much for that  You can no longer be an apologist for grouse moors without making yourself look silly now lol


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Wildlife Trust in general but not ever one because each area is run quite separately
> 
> Compassion in World Farming
> 
> ...


Here we go lol The BTO is neither an animal rights organisation nor does it use bias data, Rona. You don't like the RSPB (which isn't AR NGO either) because they will speak out against the destructive side of the shooting industry an industry you support.

You seem to be confusing AR organisations with conservation NGOs, animal welfare NGOs & sanctuaries. Wildlife Trust, CIWF, Monkey World aren't Animal Rights organisations either.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> he videos that we see showing appalling conditions and in some cases, out right cruelty, at puppy farms , abbatoirs etc , are they're not facts because "activists" filmed them undercover ? We should be thanking them for putting themselves a risk and letting the world know .


But so many are staged or contain so much misinformation. I remember a farm that I worked on, but before I worked there being "exposed" but what they showed was hogging sows. I doubt they even knew, but put their own spin on it. I've since seen quite a few things like this
Yet another load of hogging sows, a few foxes that had obviously been dead for some time, a lump of meat that was supposed to be an animal ripped apart but with no blood on the surrounding vegetation, a deer that caught it's leg in a fence(my god I can't even begin to think what dastardly dead that was!!) and best of all a stolen picture of a deer with fawn, however they used just part of the picture to further the cause, when the whole picture came to light it was road kill 

Funnily on here, pedigree dogs exposed was rubbished whereas all other reports are embraced with gusto............................

Oh yes......the most recent, Kiddies woodland camps are hunting hides  You couldn't make that one up


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> Read the whole of the middle quote.It said
> 
> "I don't agree with circus animals, far from it, I think it's obscene, but don't hold up other animal exploitation as a better alternative without knowing how the animals are treated"


I get your point that some zoos could have worse conditions than the circuses , the aim would be to rehome the circus animals to better places and to improve zoos or wildlife parks.

Some major zoos do good things , with many animals facing extinction they maybe perhaps a necessity .


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

It's a sad day but innevetable I guess. But wouldn't want people to lose there jobs but I agree the animals should be cared for and loved for the remaining days . Putting them to sleep is a sad factor in all of this . They didnt chose the path they was given or the final outcome I guess


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