# Breeding Moggies



## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I know a few of you will be grabbing the popcorn after reading the title of this thread but just wanted to pass comment, without causing offence.

I know it irritates many people when moggies are 'bred' but it happens and always will happen.

I believe that usually it isn't an 'accident', but it's easier for people to say that it was as admission to it would mean a serious slating!!

Many cat owners love the thought of a sweet fluffy litter, who wouldn't? It's so easy to just let your cat out, why not?

Well...

Sadly 'moggie breeders' mostly don't have the same knowledge as pedigree breeders, especially breeders with years of knowledge and experience. Pedigree cats are chosen for breeding because they are close to the breed standard so are likely to pass on the most acceptable genes and produce kittens who are also close to the breed standard, thus carrying on the breed.
Moggies come from a mixed gene pool which may have faults, some fatal and there's no way of knowing what you're going to produce. Male cats that mate with females who 'escape' could be carrying diseases, fleas, worms. Females are at serious risk being allowed to mate without planning. They are also mating unsupervised where a fight could ensue causing damage to either or both male and female, cats lose eyes, get major wounds etc from matings. They would be swiftly seperated if they were pedigree and under controlled circumstances.

Pedigree breeders spend a lot of time researching the genetic history of their animals, the health, and spend considerable amounts of money testing them and ensuring the most suitable animals are being mated to the most suitable mates, it's a very serious procedure. Most of us also plan the kittens' new homes even before the litter is conceived. Bear in mind that rescue centres are bursting with pretty moggies who need a home, do you feel it necessary to bring yet more animals into a world where so many are being put to sleep due to lack of homes? I worked with the SSPCA and sadly saw the results of people breeding moggies willy nilly first hand, very sad indeed. That sweet little baby leaving you for a new home may well end up forever sleeping in years to come...

So if you do have a pregnant moggie, or plan to breed yours, please understand why people may be irritated, you will get the help you ask for, but it may be grumbly. Think twice about your decision. Be honest with yourself, it's not your girl who wants this litter, it's YOU.

Those of you who don't agree with abortion, that's just an excuse! I don't agree with abortion either but there's a time and place for everything. If the queen is very young, or you can't afford to raise a litter, it's certainly the best option and is much kinder than putting the poor mother cat through a painful labour!

Some of us are willing to provide impartial help and advice, we are all of course united by our love and passion for cats.

I think everyone here needs to be mindful of other people's opinions and feelings on such a sensitive subject.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Ive had 8 Oris and siamese in the last 7 years. 4 are alive aged 5 and 4. Three died aged 2 and one aged 7. my 4 moggies are all still going strong. so health tests dont always mean anything. ive been very put off pedigrees. its worrying.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Im not blaming their breeders. not their fault they are good breeders.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2013)

I will be honest and say yes I would love to have the experience of having kittens in the house and watching a birth and the kittens growing up and maybe I will in the future through a rescue cat or fostering. However please note that all my cats are neutered before I get shouted at!


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes there are many problems with pedigree cats, often due to inbreeding and not outcrossing often enough, the reason i left here for a while was connected to this issue.

I'm not here to shout at anyone, just want people to be aware of the dangers involved in moggie breeding, if it was controlled in a similar way to pedigree breeding it wouldnt be as bad, assuming the person was going to keep the full litter too.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

alisondalziel said:


> I know a few of you will be grabbing the popcorn after reading the title of this thread but just wanted to pass comment, without causing offence.
> 
> I know it irritates many people when moggies are 'bred' but it happens and always will happen.
> 
> ...


Here here


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I agree AD. I also had a cat that stopped me from breeding because her breeder was breeding with HCM carriers (and knew it) and my cat has HCM. 

If you have to breed moggies do it responsibly. Test and test again. Test the stud too, don't just let your cat out to find a mate. The local tom won't have the best temperament having fought his way to the top of the breeding pile. We chose gentle giants often to mate our queens with as they can pass that trait onto their kittens. A lot of people want to mate their moggy because it has a lovely personality but that local tom doesn't!

Research birthing, genetics etc. It amazes me how many people don't know that tabby isn't a breed (and therefore not a Bengal) or that a black cat bred with a black cat will most likely give you a black cat, or that a pointed fluffy cat will probably give black shorthaired kittens.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2013)

Fiji444 said:


> I will be honest and say yes I would love to have the experience of having kittens in the house and watching a birth and the kittens growing up and maybe I will in the future through a rescue cat or fostering. However please note that all my cats are neutered before I get shouted at!


So many people say this. I've had the experience of having kittens, watching the birth, helping my pregnant queen etc... TWICE. And it's a flippin' nightmare! I am a 100% cat person and devoted to my animals. I adore kittens. But even for someone like me I would not choose to go through it again. It was utter utter heartache at every step worrying like mad my beloved cat was going to be okay and whether those kittens wouldn't steal her from me.
When she had them it was really scary (not to mention expensive), and she had a straight forward labour and delivery. 
After she had them I couldn't sleep for weeks until I knew they could crawl, cos I was terrified she'd lay on them and kill them. 
When they started moving about it was a nightmare. They were constantly in danger from one thing or another.

Ugh, it was just totally not worth it. Trust me, it's NOTHING like you'd imagine it to be. And that's if it's all straight forward. I can do without extra stress in my life personally!


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## Elaine (Dec 15, 2007)

I have on occasion been called a breeder basher but my real issue is so much more to do with responsible breeding practices. Now I dont know any of you here or what your practices are so I dont wish to start fighting with any one, just putting my point across.
Many of the breeders I have met, moggies and pedigrees, as well as dogs etc, have bred with pound signs in mind first and foremost.
What bothers me alot is the over population, over breeding and indiscriminate breeding, many with devastating and costly results.
Now are breeders to blame for this? No, not entirely in my opinion. It's about time the consumer took on alot of this responsibility. Breeders produce a desired product because the consumer wants it. Why do so many animals end up in rescue? Because the consumer puts them there, sometimes the worst kind of breeders does too. Moggy breeding by and large really gets my goat though, I have seen so many cats destroyed through indiscriminate breeding practices.

Oh and I'd just like to add on the point of abortion, we impose too many of our own moral values onto animals and it's just not the same as if it were your young daughter or something, the animals have no expectations of parenthood, they operate on a level of survival.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If the day ever comes that rescues are not overflowing with cats and kittens needing homes, that cats / kittens in need can't get a place when they need it, and cats / kittens are not being euthanasied simply because they can't get a home then I'll welcome breeding moggies with open arms.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Many of the breeders I have met, moggies and pedigrees, as well as dogs etc, have bred with pound signs in mind first and foremost


How? Will somebody PLEASE tell me how! OK, I know where I could cut some corners but I couldn't ever make money, only lose a little less. Am I soft? Am I stupid? Am I the only breeder willingly paying out a fortune each and every month to pursue a hobby I love? Yes, at the point a litter of kittens leaves for new homes it probably looks as if I'm making a lot of money but it goes nowhere near covering the costs.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thats where the day job pays for the hobby and even then money is lost.
Ive sat down many evenings to try and get the figures right and given up, no matter how hard breeders try they will not make money from breeding.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Nor should they in my opinion. It's a labour of love. It's something I want to do and a hobby. All hobbies cost money - this one just happens to cost a lot.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2013)

Elaine said:


> Oh and I'd just like to add on the point of abortion, we impose too many of our own moral values onto animals and it's just not the same as if it were your young daughter or something, the animals have no expectations of parenthood, they operate on a level of survival.


I'll say it again, I completely disagree with this opinion. Cats are mammals, not reptiles. As part of their "breeding for survival" they will know they are pregnant and expecting kittens, and will know if they have no kittens to feed. They will know on a biological level and may well suffer a hormonal imbalance because of it (basically cat post-natal depression).
However, I do agree with the practice when it's in the cat, owner and kittens' best interests so don't get me wrong. But I do think you should be sensitive to what the mother has gone through and realise that she may need a lot of emotional support to cope with her body adjusting to the fact that she lost her kittens. The process of the hormones resorting back to normal will "feel" of something.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

How to make a small fortune from breeding cats? Start with a large fortune 
I think people see the amount of money a kitten costs (to buy), they multiply that by say four or five kittens and then think 'wow' all that money!!! They don't consider any of the costs involved. If some breeders may have £££ in their eyes, they'd soon learn the reality


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Havoc, the way to make money is to use newspaper or shredded paper for litter, not vaccinate, feed mum on dry and expect her to suckle her kittens completely until they're torn away from her at 6 weeks and rehomed. You could make a lot if you charged pedigree prices and did it that way. Remember that she'll be still allowed outside, so will be hunting/scrounging off other neighbours, so the owner actually feeds her less than you would an indoor cat!


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## Elaine (Dec 15, 2007)

havoc said:


> How? Will somebody PLEASE tell me how! OK, I know where I could cut some corners but I couldn't ever make money, only lose a little less. Am I soft? Am I stupid? Am I the only breeder willingly paying out a fortune each and every month to pursue a hobby I love? Yes, at the point a litter of kittens leaves for new homes it probably looks as if I'm making a lot of money but it goes nowhere near covering the costs.


Because they havent carried out any health tests etc.


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## Elaine (Dec 15, 2007)

NexivRed said:


> I'll say it again, I completely disagree with this opinion. Cats are mammals, not reptiles. As part of their "breeding for survival" they will know they are pregnant and expecting kittens, and will know if they have no kittens to feed. They will know on a biological level and may well suffer a hormonal imbalance because of it (basically cat post-natal depression).
> However, I do agree with the practice when it's in the cat, owner and kittens' best interests so don't get me wrong. But I do think you should be sensitive to what the mother has gone through and realise that she may need a lot of emotional support to cope with her body adjusting to the fact that she lost her kittens. The process of the hormones resorting back to normal will "feel" of something.


Fair points.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Nice to see everyone discussing without it breaking into a childish argument, last time i was on here it was a little less so, maybe the members involved were banned or left. All good 

I do agree to some extent that the mother knows she is pregnant, hormones do change, as well as the body, and she will prepare for her birth and litter by nesting, eating extra food etc but i didn't mean having abortions carried out weeks into a pregnancy, i'm talking early abortion, before the body starts to change. Recovery with extra care would be quick.

Mothers are also affected my kittens being taken away...

Another topic entirely but it really winds me up when breeders remove kittens from mum after only 6/7 weeks, usually to get them back on the show bench, i know of at least 2 breeders who do this and it upsets me deeply, my kittens stay with mum until they are 13 weeks old, they still suckle now and then, more for comfort rather than nutrition, and i always stagger when they go to their new homes to minimise the stress on mum. 

There was another thread where 'playing God' was mentioned, well yes we do play God, we just have to ensure that we live up to that title as much as we can, doing things morally, ethically, with care, and most of all love.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I think the whole thing about breeders making money could be a bit of a self-fulfilling argument. Those people who believe breeders make a fortune will resent paying and buy cut price kittens. They then end up with poor quality kittens and in their eyes have the proof they need that breeders are all bad.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

alisondalziel said:


> Yes there are many problems with pedigree cats, often due to inbreeding.


These issues are also in moggies, many moggies are very inbred. Also every disease in pedigree cats shows up in moggies.

The main difference being that pedigree breeders monitor, keep records and test their cats. There are no such records on domestics.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> How? Will somebody PLEASE tell me how! OK, I know where I could cut some corners but I couldn't ever make money, only lose a little less. Am I soft? Am I stupid? Am I the only breeder willingly paying out a fortune each and every month to pursue a hobby I love? Yes, at the point a litter of kittens leaves for new homes it probably looks as if I'm making a lot of money but it goes nowhere near covering the costs.


I had this discussion with a breeder friend a few days ago though we'd started off pondering on why a lot of breeders keep large numbers of (breeding) cats. But that's another subject possibly.

Carly, I think your example of breeders taking kittens away from mum at 6 weeks and the adult breeding cats often being fed by neighbours is a pretty extreme one - though, yes, I'm sure it happens.

The discussion I had with my friend turned to your averagely less than ethical breeder who fed a cheap'ish diet, didn't bother registering kittens, often sold kittens at 10 weeks'ish with one (or no) vaccinations and you know what? I *still* cannot see how they would make any money. Just roughing it out in my mind I am absolutely certain that, were I to do the same, I would merely lose somewhat less money than by doing it 'properly'. Leaves me wondering why those who cut so many corners actually bother breeding at all if it's not for the love of the breed (and clearly it isn't) nor for money.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Yay!!

gskinner123! Lovely to see another member that i remember


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Sorry to read of your previous problems, Alison, but very nice to see you back


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

NexivRed said:


> I'll say it again, I completely disagree with this opinion. Cats are mammals, not reptiles. As part of their "breeding for survival" they will know they are pregnant and expecting kittens, and will know if they have no kittens to feed. They will know on a biological level and may well suffer a hormonal imbalance because of it (basically cat post-natal depression).
> <snip>


Sorry I disagree, especially in the case of a maiden queen in early pregnancy. She might be aware something is 'different' but that's it. I do accept that a queen that has had a previous pregnancy may have some awareness later on, once the kittens are moving, and then during delivery.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Sorry I disagree, especially in the case of a maiden queen in early pregnancy. She might be aware something is 'different' but that's it. I do accept that a queen that has had a previous pregnancy may have some awareness later on, once the kittens are moving, and then during delivery.


I said it's a biological awareness, not a conscious one where she realises what's happening. When you become pregnant your body releases certain hormones that only appear during pregnancy. Your body will acknowledge these and react to them, as well as the premature departure of them.


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