# Hyper puppy? Too much protein? Advice please.



## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hello,

I am a new member and struggling with contraditory advice and would appreciate your views.

I have a 5mth lab/collie who is mouthing too aggresively, nips/bites, pulls clothing, growls then goes for hands when in play. All in all not pleasant. We are training him (only had him 6 weeks)

I have been adviced by the trainers to reduce the amount of protein in his diet from 28% to 20/22% to reduce his energy levels. What do you think? 

* I have also been advised to have him neutered to 'calm' him down. This I have researched much for pros and cons.
* I have been told he's too dominant due to being too humansed with prev. owners and not allowed with us.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Firstly, yes, get that protein level down, lol!!

I dont feed my young uns anymore than 18% protein, its just not needed and can the cause of behaviour problems in many dogs.

Lower this, and the other probs may will dissapate.

I wouldnt have pup neutered yet, far too young and will interfere with growth hormones, lots of threads o on here abou this subject.

No doubt others will come along and post more stuff.........


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi thanks for that. I thought your 1st comment about lowering protein was good advice. I have been told they need it for energy. :confused5:

My gut feeling is not to have him neutered at this age but the vet's have highly recommended. :001_huh: 

I would like to change his diet 1st. Could you recommend a feed? What have you used?


Regards,


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

High protein and high calorie diets will increase the risk of skeletal problems in all dogs, but especially in the larger breeds. 

I have rotties and prefer them to grow and mature very slowly rather than too fast and store up problems for the future.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

IMO the protein effect is dependant on it's source.

If it's from a good source, then the dog can digest it properly and use it for it's intended purpose, energy.

If it's not, it will convert it to glucose and become hyper.

I fed Orijen puppy food, 40 ish % protein, but Bailey was much calmer than on a lower protein diet, because it's grain free and the protein was coming from meat and nothing but meat.

Most puppy foods will have a higher protein level. 

So I genuinely believe it's about where the protein is coming from. I'm just talking hyperactivity levels here, not growth.

Can I ask what you are feeding?


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi thanks,

When we got him he was on a bargain brand of £9.99 for 20kg. I never thought to check his feed. I gradually replaced it with puppy/junior 'Gusto'.
After 3/4 days he became like a bolshy teenager around us and our house (even before feed change - I believe he was testing his boundaries) not the placid (though unusual) puppy we had viewed. So we stepped up the behaviour training, using puppy classes and 1:1.

He is a lovely dog and a fast learner but we are at the stage where we are now focusing/working on his aggressive behaviour when we ignore his demands, jumping, bites, growling etc. he gets very angry with us for ignoring him! My granddaughter can not be near him. Which is a shame.It is at this point people/professional has suggested neutering and or protein changes - although the training will continue.

Sorry for the lengthy answer - thought it might help build a picture.

Very much appreciated.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

HAve you thought about a raw diet?? Lotso f info on here about that too....


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> HAve you thought about a raw diet?? Lotso f info on here about that too....


Yes thanks, I have read some of the comments, doing lots of reading from this site this evening! Brilliant.


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## Kat28 (Mar 19, 2008)

I have a British bulldog and had the same issue with her. My vet recommended chappie dry dog food for her as this is low in protien 6 months later and we have no problem. She calmed down within a couple of days of been on it. I do mix meat in with it but stay away from high protein food


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

With respect. Gusto is a damn awful food.

I think changing to any decent food will see your dog calm down. A food with a decent meat content and less fillers.

Do you have a budget per 15kg sack? Wet or dry?

If you let us know I'm sure we can help you find the best bang for your buck.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Kat28 said:


> I have a British bulldog and had the same issue with her. My vet recommended chappie dry dog food for her as this is low in protien 6 months later and we have no problem. She calmed down within a couple of days of been on it. I do mix meat in with it but stay away from high protein food


I'm so glad this has worked for you, but please OP don't go with chappie dry. I know chappie wet is great for sensitive tums by chappie dry is about the worst dry food I have seen ingredients wise.



> Cereals (minimum 4% wholegrain); Derivitives of vegetable origin; meat and animal derivitives (minimum 4% chicken); oils and fats; minerals. With antioxidants butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT) and butylated hydroxyanisole (BHA). With preservative potassium sorbate.


????

Seriously, and they charge people for that?


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## Kat28 (Mar 19, 2008)

Lyceum said:


> I'm so glad this has worked for you, but please OP don't go with chappie dry. I know chappie wet is great for sensitive tums by chappie dry is about the worst dry food I have seen ingredients wise.
> 
> ????
> 
> Seriously, and they charge people for that?


My dog has been fine on this and has not had any problems at all. Vets recommend chappie a lot for sensitive stomachs and hyperness in dogs due to it's low protein level both wet and dry.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Kat28 said:


> My dog has been fine on this and has not had any problems at all. Vets recommend chappie a lot for sensitive stomachs and hyperness in dogs due to it's low protein level both wet and dry.


As I said, I'm very happy your dog has done well.

Believe me or don't believe me, the ingredients speak for themselves.

Vets recommend chappie wet, never heard one recommend the dry.

And TBH, vets have a bare minimum of food knowledge, just as GP's do with our dietary requirements. If we want food help, we go to a dietician, because we want expert advice. We don't assume GP's are the be all and end all of advice for humans. So it baffles me when people think vets are the be all and end all for animal advice. If our dog has a skin condition, or a behavioural problem, we don't just take the vets word do we, no, we ask for a referral to a dermatologist, or a behaviourist. if you want dog food help, you should go to a canine nutritionist. IE, the experts.

Again, I stress, I'm made up your dog has done well, and this isn't a slight on what you're feeding. It's the simple truth based on the ingredients in the food. Nobody can look at those ingredients and say it's a good food. It just isn't.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Posting quite succinctly for me, mainly because I'm on my third glass of red, but there is one main difference between the protein in raw, and the protein in commercial foods. Protein in raw is unaltered, so, although you give good ingredients, the main component is usually water, hence dogs tend to drink less than on commercial foods. The protein in commercial foods, kibble, is mainly from *meat* meal, and this is done by cooking thoroughly through a process where any bacteria is killed off. This means two things, low grade meat can be used, because bacteria is killed, and also, you can bump up the protein content of kibble, but the ingestability (if that's a word) isn't as *simple* for as for unaltered raw foods. 


Hope that makes sense, must go top up my glass of red before I post more incomprehensible advice  And, welcome to the forum btw...


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi, fair enough, it's good to hear it straight.
At the moment I'm limited to about £20 per 15kg o ) Training is costing me a fortune I'm afraid.

Regards.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Posting quite succinctly for me, mainly because I'm on my third glass of red, but there is one main difference between the protein in raw, and the protein in commercial foods. Protein in raw is unaltered, so, although you give good ingredients, the main component is usually water, hence dogs tend to drink less than on commercial foods. The protein in commercial foods, kibble, is mainly from *meat* meal, and this is done by cooking thoroughly through a process where any bacteria is killed off. This means two things, low grade meat can be used, because bacteria is killed, and also, you can bump up the protein content of kibble, but the ingestability (if that's a word) isn't as *simple* for as for unaltered raw foods.
> 
> Hope that makes sense, must go top up my glass of red before I post more incomprehensible advice  And, welcome to the forum btw...


That's basically what I was trying to say in my 'I am really crap at explaining things' way lol.

Good protein source = great.

Bad protein source = hyper dogs.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

There are tons of better foods out there so choose the one that suits your budget and the pup. Whatever you do, change very slowly so as not to engender sickness/diarreoah. 

I have to say, regardless of food, one of mine is very lively compared to the other and that's his character. so you might change and find the pup is still very active. It's a BC, so quite lively, probably!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Posting quite succinctly for me, mainly because I'm on my third glass of red
> 
> Hope that makes sense, must go top up my glass of red before I post more incomprehensible advice  And, welcome to the forum btw...


Top up? After your third glass?! You must be a much better northerner than me! I'm on my second and definitely considering bed! Piss head!


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

RKD said:


> Hi, fair enough, it's good to hear it straight.
> At the moment I'm limited to about £20 per 15kg o ) Training is costing me a fortune I'm afraid.
> 
> Regards.


No need for the , everyone here feeds the best budget allows. Nowt wrong in that at all.

And my lord yes, training is expensive lol.

Okay, IMO, the best budget foods around are these

Skinners Field and Trial Duck and Rice Dog Food 15Kg - £19.51

Skinners Field and Trial Salmon Rice Dog Food 15Kg - £22.92

Not amazing (but amazing comes with amazing price tags, out or most people's budgets). But for a budget food in all my time looking/researching dog foods I've not found better. A lot will say CSJ, but they have a few types of cereals in, Skinners has just the one. If my dog wasn't basically rice intolerant (any more than a tiny bit kicks him off) I'd still be feeding this as a topper to wet.

They do cheaper foods but TBH, they're pretty pants.

As above too, don't expect miracles, but if it's the food causing hyper activity this should help.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

_Do you have a budget per 15kg sack? Wet or dry?_
... I would prefer dry food - more convenient for all the family to do the feeds.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

RKD said:


> Hi, fair enough, it's good to hear it straight.
> At the moment I'm limited to about £20 per 15kg o ) Training is costing me a fortune I'm afraid.
> 
> Regards.


I did see your last post, regarding dried food, how much of an issue is raw for you? I only ask because I feed it every day, and it is not at all difficult, the vast majority who swap to it are surprised at how easy it is. I get the impression many envision having to hack off huge chunks of raw meat, when that really isn't the case. I feed two large Labs for approx £7.50 per week, all great fresh free range ingredients, sourced within 20 miles max of where I live (unless you count the human left overs they get, which forms a minimal part of their diet).



Lyceum said:


> That's basically what I was trying to say in my 'I am really crap at explaining things' way lol.
> 
> Good protein source = great.
> 
> Bad protein source = hyper dogs.


Yay for my numpty explanations, glad it was useful 



cinammontoast said:


> Top up? After your third glass?! You must be a much better northerner than me! I'm on my second and definitely considering bed! Piss head!


hehe, in my *youth* I could drink ten pints of guiness, and then go on to a night club, I've slowed down a bit since then


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

If you fancy raw, I spent about £4 to feed one dog per week based on the total time/cash spent in the past month. 1kg bags of tripe, for example, are about 60p and are more than one day's feed.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks Lyceum! :thumbup1:

I have been following threads and Skinners have come up a few times. I would prefer to take advice from those that know from experience - like yourself. It would be a good start. See if it makes a difference.

Much appreciated. Just taken little man out for a walk (1 hour) and played footbal in the garden (15 mins) hope he sleeps - I need to! All I seem to be doing these days is trying to tire (spelling?) him out!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Keep a check on timing of exercise: if he's only 5 months, an hour is a bit long on the lead. The loose rule is 5 minutes per month of age plus play in the garden etc. Careful of his little legs at this age.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

If you do try it, hope it helps some.

My last dog was a collie, 20 years of age and still belting it around like a 6 month old before she died.

So, erm, don't expect the sleep to last long LOL.

Also, collie's are super intelligent, maybe think of getting something like a Nina Otisson (sp) or similar toy to keep him mentally busy.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

cinammontoast said:


> If you fancy raw, I spent about £4 to feed one dog per week based on the total time/cash spent in the past month. 1kg bags of tripe, for example, are about 60p and are more than one day's feed.


Yes thanks for that, I am also reading up on it on this site. Didn't realise how cheap it would be! I just need to call into a pet shop tomorrow ASAP!:thumbup1:


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Have got a Kong which I stuff and freeze. Other chewing toys for his teeth. Don't know the one you state - will look into it. Yes they are v intelligent dogs. Need lots of mental stimulation. i can see he gets impatient when we don't play - this is when he tries to 'bully' us into play.

Regards.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I get all my raw meaty bones from the butchers, I pay £2.50 for large boxes of chicken carcasses, and get lamb bones for free. I get green tripe from a separate supplier for 50p for a 1lb block, and the rest I make up myself. If you click on my siggy pic, it takes you to my website, just fill in the contact form and ask me for a guide to raw feeding, and I'll email it to you


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

RKD said:


> Yes thanks for that, I am also reading up on it on this site. Didn't realise how cheap it would be! I just need to call into a pet shop tomorrow ASAP!:thumbup1:


Some pet shops sell raw but normally very expensive stuff and horrible! Dog food company are bril if you're south of Lincolnshire, DAF if you're up north, Rawtogo anywhere in the uk.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

cinammontoast said:


> Keep a check on timing of exercise: if he's only 5 months, an hour is a bit long on the lead. The loose rule is 5 minutes per month of age plus play in the garden etc. Careful of his little legs at this age.


Hi, thanks for that advice. I have heard about too much strain on puppy legs - I'm getting all overloaded with considering neutering, feed, training & OTT behaviour... work.... ... whilst running everything else in my family life.

... deep breath LOL! :mad2:

How much walk/excercise would you recommend? Weight about 18kg, 6mths old. (I might post this as a new comment)


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

RKD said:


> Hi, thanks for that advice. I have heard about too much strain on puppy legs - I'm getting all overloaded with considering neutering, feed, training & OTT behaviour... work.... ... whilst running everything else in my family life.
> 
> ... deep breath LOL! :mad2:
> 
> How much walk/excercise would you recommend? Weight about 18kg, 6mths old. (I might post this as a new comment)


It's generally recommended 5 minutes for every month of the dogs life. So about 35 minutes per walk at his age.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Lyceum said:


> IMO the protein effect is dependant on it's source.
> 
> If it's from a good source, then the dog can digest it properly and use it for it's intended purpose, energy.
> 
> ...


I have today taken advice and got some puppy food that is 30% but is sourced more healthily. We'll see. Have cancelled the neutering - not comfortable with that just yet.
Still looking into raw feeding.


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## Kat28 (Mar 19, 2008)

With your reply then I assume your a fully qualified nutritionist and you have obviously spoken to every vet in the country to know what every vet recommends. Can I just ask if vets are so useless why do we use them. I take it you never use a vet for your animals as they have so little knowledge of anything .



Lyceum said:


> As I said, I'm very happy your dog has done well.
> 
> Believe me or don't believe me, the ingredients speak for themselves.
> 
> ...


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Kat28 said:


> With your reply then I assume your a fully qualified nutritionist and you have obviously spoken to every vet in the country to know what every vet recommends. Can I just ask if vets are so useless why do we use them. I take it you never use a vet for your animals as they have so little knowledge of anything .


Man, calm down!

I know about 8 vets, some small, some equine vets. Two are friends. The food they recommend is not based on nutritionally expert advice: it is based on what they're sponsored to sell and bland stuff that won't cause upset tummies. They have one day of feeding training in a 5 year course. Sorry, but they know sod all about feeding, usually.

We make a decision on food based on a hell of a lot of research, not some whimsical silly idea.

I have personally taught my vet about two things recently and him having to go and look up something on the internet did not inspire me with confidence.

Vets are the GPs of the animal world, not experts on everything, nor or they gods. Go figure, I do my research first, then ask for the vet to confirm, deny, etc.

Why are you so angry?


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Kat28 said:


> With your reply then I assume your a fully qualified nutritionist and you have obviously spoken to every vet in the country to know what every vet recommends. Can I just ask if vets are so useless why do we use them. I take it you never use a vet for your animals as they have so little knowledge of anything .


Please point me to the part where I said 'vets are useless'.

I said they aren't the experts on everything. They aren't.

I said I've never heard a vet recommend chappie dry, I haven't.

Please don't twist my words for your own purposes. If you have to do that, you're doing nothing but proving my point.

To be blunt, I couldn't give a flying crap if you feed chappie, orijen or finest steak to your dog.

The fact remains, chappie dry isn't a good food.

I'll say again, the ingredients speak for themselves.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

RKD said:


> I have today taken advice and got some puppy food that is 30% but is sourced more healthily. We'll see. Have cancelled the neutering - not comfortable with that just yet.
> Still looking into raw feeding.


Can I ask what food you went with?


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## Kat28 (Mar 19, 2008)

Proving your point on what?


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Kat28 said:


> Proving your point on what?


If the only argument you have is twisting my words and being sarcastic, then all you're doing is proving the point I was making about chappie being a terrible food and vets not being THE only animal advice source.

No doubt you'll have a sarcastic reply to this too, which twists my words.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Lyceum said:


> chappie being a terrible food and vets not being THE only animal advice source.


Indeed. It must be like eating only bread and butter every day-boring.


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## Kat28 (Mar 19, 2008)

I havent twisted your words at all. I am not proving anything by replying. Maybe you ought to come down off your high horse.


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## Kat28 (Mar 19, 2008)

cinammontoast said:


> Indeed. It must be like eating only bread and butter every day-boring.


So you feed your dog a different food each day so they never have the same thing twice. She also has various meats mixed in with her biscuits. If you read what I wrote in the first place. Different flavours of wainwrights etc. chappie is just her dry food.


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

Kat28 said:


> I havent twisted your words at all. I am not proving anything by replying. Maybe you ought to come down off your high horse.


To be honest, I don't know why you're getting so agitated with Lyceum. Her posts are in response to the OP, who asked for advice on food. You can choose to ignore it if you wish, but no need to be argumentative when someone has taken the time to offer their help.

And btw, I agree with Lyceum - Chappie dry is full of fillers, cereal and BHA and BHT. If you're happy feeding it, that's fine, but it would not be good advice to tell the OP it is a "good" food.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Kat28 said:


> I havent twisted your words at all. I am not proving anything by replying. Maybe you ought to come down off your high horse.





> With your reply then I assume your a fully qualified nutritionist and you have obviously spoken to every vet in the country to know what every vet recommends. Can I just ask if vets are so useless why do we use them. I take it you never use a vet for your animals as they have so little knowledge of anything .


That there is twisting my words.

I was simply pointing out that chappie dry is a terrible food, listed the ingredients, which show it's not a good food.

You're the one who decided to take issue.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Just to chirp in (LOL!) I think ALL manafactured dog foods are crap, which is why I dont comment on them and leave it to others. I know I can get more than a little evangelical about feeding raw so tend to step back these days as I do tend to pi$$ people off sometimes, but hey, no need to have a go at someone pointing out FACTS about ingredients in these foods!!

Its a free forum and a free country (or is it???)


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Kat28 said:


> So you feed your dog a different food each day so they never have the same thing twice. She also has various meats mixed in with her biscuits. If you read what I wrote in the first place. Different flavours of wainwrights etc. chappie is just her dry food.


I had this dilemma when Roo was on Royal Canin.

He was getting about 70:30 Wainwrights wet to RC.

He was fine on it until somehting in the WW changed and he wouldn't eat it.

Now he's on 70:30 Skinners Dry to Butchers (SHOCK HORROR!!!) 

I had to put him on Butchers when we went through a rough patch when OH lost his job. BUt watching them wolf the lot down I decided to keep them on it. Every other day they get a raw mince instead and they get more skinners than the wet so I'm happy, they are happy, healthy coats, teeth and eyes.

If it works for your dog then good on you.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Lyceum said:


> Can I ask what food you went with?


Oh dear, this is obviously an area that has much debate. Hi Lyceum, I have gone with a food protein of 30% (yes, it is higher as a percentage) but has more of the healthier protein type, with no fillers, apparently gentle on dog's digestion. He needs less of this feed. He loves it and does not leave any. Time will tell.

By the way... my new vet didn't suggest any food alterations first - _just to have him snipped._
My dog trainer suggested lowering the protein content - which after all the advice and researching labels on food on the internet - I found was impossible for a growing puppy unless you switch to adult type food (which I believe may affect their bone development - fair enough). I wouldn't hold back nutrition from a toddler, but definately look at the content of what I was feeding him. I might even end up lowering his protein altogether if he doesn't settle down being too aggressive; but then I might get him snipped! 
I have learnt a lot, and have looked into raw feeding; that may follow later when he is settled with his food. I thank every one for their advice - it has all been considered.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

RKD said:


> Oh dear, this is obviously an area that has much debate. Hi Lyceum, I have gone with a food protein of 30% (yes, it is higher as a percentage) but has more of the healthier protein type, with no fillers, apparently gentle on dog's digestion. He needs less of this feed. He loves it and does not leave any. Time will tell.
> 
> By the way... my new vet didn't suggest any food alterations first - _just to have him snipped._
> My dog trainer suggested lowering the protein content - which after all the advice and researching labels on food on the internet - I found was impossible for a growing puppy unless you switch to adult type food (which I believe may affect their bone development - fair enough). I wouldn't hold back nutrition from a toddler, but definately look at the content of what I was feeding him. I might even end up lowering his protein altogether if he doesn't settle down being too aggressive; but then I might get him snipped!
> I have learnt a lot, and have looked into raw feeding; that may follow later when he is settled with his food. I thank every one for their advice - it has all been considered.


My apologies RKD. The threat seems to have go awry, that happens around here lol. I apologise for my part in that. Will keep it on track now.

What brand of food did you go with?

TBH, I'm not a believe in puppy food, wasn't around years ago and dogs did well. For me, once you get to decent foods, the ingredients are so similar to the adult foods that paying extra for the puppy just seems pointless. That said, totally my opinion. Really hope it works for your boy.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi Lyceum,

No problem, honest. Immediately after work the next day I rushed to a pet store and managed to speak to a 'nutritionalist' who gave me a lot of time and also a 7kg bag for free to try! 
After looking on the shelf at loads of foods I ended up with Wainwrights fishy dry food and will run with that for a while. 
I also contacted Skinners after lots of forum advice and I have already received 2 samples! They replied the following day! Lamb & Mince Sensitive (hypoallergenic) and Salmon & Rice (gluten free). That they suggest for such a puppy, (it's not puppy food) Very similar in composition to Wainwrights. 
I must say... once you start looking at food labels it becomes a little OCD, but there are no fillers and additives, which al ot of other brands have.

Meanwhile... I'll keep up the training. That in it self is a mine field! Sooo many opinions about to be 'Alph' or not, how to discipline, chockers or not, clickers or not... and it goes on!

I have had dogs in the past, but many years ago, and we just 'got on with it'. Whatever your dog was like - that was your lot - it was called *character*. Today there is so much money to be made on advice i.e. trainers (they contradict!) food, reading a dog's behaviour, so many recommendations I daren't get it wrong

Best wishes.

ps - have made a 'pittapatta' and can't get it to download, it fails every time, any suggestions?


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

RKD said:


> Hi Lyceum,
> 
> No problem, honest. Immediately after work the next day I rushed to a pet store and managed to speak to a 'nutritionalist' who gave me a lot of time and also a 7kg bag for free to try!
> After looking on the shelf at loads of foods I ended up with Wainwrights fishy dry food and will run with that for a while.
> ...


Wainwrights is a fine mid range food.

Did the instore 'nutritionist' tell you it had no fillers? lol.

I'd say 99% of dog foods have fillers, and this is no exception.



> Salmon Protein (min. 23%), Potato (min. 17.5%), Atlantic Fish Meal, Potato Protein, Sorghum, Whole Grain Barley (min. 10%), Sunflower Oil, Whole Linseed (min. 4%), Sugar Beet Pulp (min. 4%), Alfalfa, Diacalcium Phosphate, Natural Seawood (min. 0.4%), Sodium Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Methionine, Marigold Extract, Yucca Extract, L-Carnitine, Rosemary Extract.


The things I've highlighted are fillers.

That said, IMO potato is better filler than grain. And wainwrights is a good food. So if the problem is food related, this should help out.

Good luck with him.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

LOL! There's soooo much to learn Years ago I used to use meat jelly in a sort of thick chunky roll. Brawn? Then one day I found an.... eyelid in it! with lashes still on. Animal I hope!


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I got Duke neutered at 6 months old, by the go-ahead from the RSPCA saying he'll be fine. I wish I hadn't, as he's retained a lot of his puppy mind, he won't fully mature (or shouldn't) until he's roughly 2 years old but I doubt his mind will get mature.

Skinners Field and Trial, I have found is good for money and CSJ as well. I feed RAW now from Home, and all those bones will mean he's using his mind to concentrate on eating them.

You can use things like Kongs with peanut butter, treat balls, stag bars etc to give him to break his day up.

A nice walk, or stroll in the morning (can only be for 5 minutes!) helps I think in starting the day. Another 5 or 10 minute walk after his lunch and maybe some games in the garden, with a ball, or training etc. You mention about mild aggression issues, is this just the pulling and the nippng? Did you get him as a rescue or from a breeder?

How much offlead time does he have with other dogs? This may or may not be beneficial, but I find it makes my pooches happy to have regular access and play time with other dogs. Also you can try handfeeding him.


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## Zayna (Apr 19, 2009)

Ceearott said:


> HAve you thought about a raw diet?? Lotso f info on here about that too....


I'm all for the raw diet too! Our greyhound was turning into a doggy whirlwind when we had her on the tinned food, constantly tearing round the flat, whining, pawing at doors and at us. Think she had so much energy she didnt know what to do with herself. After just over a week on a raw diet she is like a different dog:thumbup:


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

RKD said:


> LOL! There's soooo much to learn Years ago I used to use meat jelly in a sort of thick chunky roll. Brawn? Then one day I found an.... eyelid in it! with lashes still on. Animal I hope!


Oh jaysus, I feed raw but that would make me hurl, even though I cut a whole bunny in half with scissors for the boys.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> I got Duke neutered at 6 months old, by the go-ahead from the RSPCA saying he'll be fine. I wish I hadn't, as he's retained a lot of his puppy mind, he won't fully mature (or shouldn't) until he's roughly 2 years old but I doubt his mind will get mature.
> 
> Skinners Field and Trial, I have found is good for money and CSJ as well. I feed RAW now from Home, and all those bones will mean he's using his mind to concentrate on eating them.
> 
> ...


Hi,

I got him from 4 1/2 months, he is now 6mths. The owner's terrier and him didn't get on, the terrier was aggressive, he wanted to just play. I will PM will more info on that.
Yes I use Kong stuffed and sometimes frozen, leave a couple of chewy toys (hard and rubber) for teeth and boredom when he is left.

He is walked in the morning - approx 20 mins then a play outside until I go to work, (other family members might play whilst I'm at work)

Then I have been doing approx 1 hour walking and field play, in the evening after dinner, sometimes off lead - but not often and very controlled as he wouldn't return at the moment. Lots of garden play inbetween.

A walk 15/20 mins on lead before I retire for bed.

I haven't tried hand feeding yet. He's ok if I try to take/move his food dish which I believe is good behaviour. BUT will growl if I try to play with him whilst he has a toy (?) Trainers say this is aggresive and to deal with it, (looking into other methods of trining - other than dominance now) friends say he's playing. UNLESS I have a treat to swop... like throwing the ball, fetching the ball, sit and treat given.

If we ignore him (turning back on him) for more heavy/aggressive mouthing (the mouthing is debatable - again, some say he's just demanding others say it's aggressive) I'm NOT happy with it either way, he will jump and follow us nipping/biting (front teeth, not full jaw), certainly growling and showing teeth. The trainers have suggested he wears a choker all the time for us to be able to 'tug' when he miss behaves. 
Just now, playing outside, he has done just that and bit at the back of my arm. Normally I have long T.shirt sleeves and jeans, just come home from work in my short sleeves and I now have a marked arm. 
When I take him off the lead, he immediately goes for my hand/arm and raggs it, if not my arm then the lead or long line and I can't do anything with him. The 1st time he did this my 4 yr granddaughter was with me and he grabbed her coat to the floor. ... That's when i brought in the 1:1 trainer and classes.

I am really upset now and could (just might) cry. I feel like I am failing to cope with this otherwise lovely dog; I will look into using alternative training methods (see my query on 're-training 6 mth puppy'), I am slowly changing his food, have been advised to neuter him.

Regards.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

When dogs growl, they mean different things. A fair few of dogs growl when they have toys as it's a sign of them playing, but then you have to make note of his body language to pick up if the growl he's doing is aggressive or not.



Get small lids, or something similar and spread peanut butter on them. When he has a toy, give hid a lid to get him to drop the toy and say "Trade". Rinse and repeat, 5 minutes a day twice or three times a day. That will teach him that it's not a threat when you come near him with a toy.

I suggest you pay for a behaviourist to assess the situation and give you up-to-date humane methods of training him. Do NOT put a choker on him, he's far too young and not only does it hurt but it can have lasting affects. 

Before trying any different methods, please do speak to a behaviourist and see what they say. Do not be so quick to neteur, it might not even solve the problem as this doesn't sound like it's testosterone related. Alot of people are very quick to opt for neutering.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/97249-what-look-trainer-behaviourist.html

Will be helpful, do this sooner rather than later.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

_I suggest you pay for a behaviourist to assess the situation and give you up-to-date humane methods of training him. Do NOT put a choker on him, he's far too young and not only does it hurt but it can have lasting affects. _

Hi, thanks, I have been recommended some links to follow from forum members on my posting 're-training 6mth puppy', and will look into it. I am aware of the cons of chokers but it was what the behaviourist (highly recommended, popular) recommended. In fact for him to wear it all the time. (?) After reading some of the advice very late last night, I dug out his 1st, soft collar.
Very much appreciated. Will try your 'trading' game.


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

My friend competes with her Border Collies and she has always said it is the calories and fat that causes energy not protein. Protein in raw is much lower and Mischief is full of excess energy, protein in complete is just, well, just nonsense even if they call it 21% or 30% or 40%.

According to veterinarian Jennifer Lander, director of medicine at the Adoptions Center for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in New York City, higher levels of protein boost canine immune systems. *Adding protein to the dog's diet not only prevents ailments but reduces stress and hyperactive behavior in dogs.* Commercial dog foods contain many grains and fillers, so reading the ingredients in processed dog food is recommended. Choose a dog food that contains the highest amount of protein. From the link below

Hyperactivity & Canine Nutrition | DailyPuppy.com

http://www.walthamusa.com/articles/wf81vie.pdf


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Miss chief said:


> Choose a dog food that contains the highest amount of protein.


I would urge caution with choosing the highest protein complete food possible for puppies as it can push growth too fast and cause problems.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

RKD said:


> Oh dear, this is obviously an area that has much debate. Hi Lyceum, I have gone with a food protein of 30% (yes, it is higher as a percentage) but has more of the healthier protein type, with no fillers, apparently gentle on dog's digestion. He needs less of this feed. He loves it and does not leave any. Time will tell.
> 
> By the way... my new vet didn't suggest any food alterations first - _just to have him snipped._
> My dog trainer suggested lowering the protein content - which after all the advice and researching labels on food on the internet - I found was impossible for a growing puppy unless you switch to adult type food (which I believe may affect their bone development - fair enough). I wouldn't hold back nutrition from a toddler, but definately look at the content of what I was feeding him. I might even end up lowering his protein altogether if he doesn't settle down being too aggressive; but then I might get him snipped!
> I have learnt a lot, and have looked into raw feeding; that may follow later when he is settled with his food. I thank every one for their advice - it has all been considered.


Right, I'm old, so bear with me! Number one, 30% protein, you have to be kidding me, absolutely ridiculous levels, please consider swapping, particularly (and I'm sorry but I don't know this) if it's a medium/large breed. Number 2, damn, the dementia (read red wine) is setting in, but no, I remember, the snip? How on earth does that affect his diet?

Number one - look for a diet that allows a natural rate of growth, ie doesn't boost or inhibit.
Number two - basic training, this should include focus attention on you, and should include getting over any hormonal stages where he might be tempted to go towards sexual behaviour.

For a vet to suggest the snip at such a young age, suggests a numpty vet to me, sorry to put it so bluntly, but it's not for the advantage of the dog, only the owners and the vet.


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## Staffybull (Jul 23, 2010)

Dogless said:


> I would urge caution with choosing the highest protein complete food possible for puppies as it can push growth too fast and cause problems.


I really doubt that a dog can be over proteined,unless the dog has a kidney problem or similar!
Dogs do best on meat and fats and any excess gets urinated out!
As for bone and growth,i think this is a genetic problem,more problematic in larger breed dogs,but as i say genetics play a major role!
If a dog is fed raw,surely this is the highest protein source available,and most dogs,do just fine!
If you deny your dog proper proteins and fats,then i think there could be more problems than you think!


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hello there,

OK thanks for that, much appreciated. Not a good day with him today. Ended up with a bite on the back on my arm - he seemd to get fustrated with me saying NO! and ignoring him (turning my back, stood still) ??

I am doing lots of research at the moment as you can see by the time this was posted. There have been so many suggestions for information etc...that I am following up. The protein debate is very interesting - whether to higher or lower or has no effect at all.

... and it goes on.

Thanks, I really appreciate your comments - hope the wine's a good year! Maybe that's the answer - having a glass to help me chill.:thumbup1:


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Neutering does not calm a dog down.:frown2:
All young dogs mouth. It`s part of their learning. You teach them bite inhibition.:thumbup1:
Feed the best quality you can. Raw is best. :
All collie pups are hyperactive. It`s what they do. They are bred to be worky so it`s a trait you can work with. :thumbup:
Try Barbara Sykes website for collie advice.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Staffybull said:


> I really doubt that a dog can be over proteined,unless the dog has a kidney problem or similar!
> Dogs do best on meat and fats and any excess gets urinated out!
> As for bone and growth,i think this is a genetic problem,more problematic in larger breed dogs,but as i say genetics play a major role!
> If a dog is fed raw,surely this is the highest protein source available,and most dogs,do just fine!
> If you deny your dog proper proteins and fats,then i think there could be more problems than you think!


Yes, they can according to my vet and a few breeders I have spoken to after this happened: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/157731-clicking-stifle.html

Apparently high protein diets from complete foods in large breeds can be linked to OCD, panosteitis and more musculoskeletal problems - my vet gave me links to some studies; but I can't find them right now  :frown2:.

I believe it is down to the source of the protein; I have switched Kilo to raw now and he is doing brilliantly.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

I had my Springer on RC when she was a pup-30% protein. I used to fall in to bed every night in tears as she was horrible. Soon as I changed to Raw she calmed right down.
I've said it before, how many dogs are in rescue when owners cant cope with unruly dogs- just because they're fed rubbish.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Home Is where I get my raw food from, send them an email for more information - they are really nice.

I want to comend you on your perserverence, a lot of people would've give up by now and sent them to a rescue.

See if you can find a local dog agility class, he can't do any jumping until he's over 12 months but he can do the obstacle course, and there'll be so many collies there you won't know what to do with yourself! Some other owners there may have experienced these types of problems as well. Agility may be something to look into once you've calmed down or hopefully stopped the nipping.

Have you got a spare room, or utility room or something? Every time he nips you can put him in there, it's got to be very quick reaction though and it does take a while but my friend used this technique with her dog that humped all the time and it did calm him down a lot.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Neutering does not calm a dog down.:frown2:
> All young dogs mouth. It`s part of their learning. You teach them bite inhibition.:thumbup1:
> Feed the best quality you can. Raw is best. :
> All collie pups are hyperactive. It`s what they do. They are bred to be worky so it`s a trait you can work with. :thumbup:
> Try Barbara Sykes website for collie advice.


Hi thanks for the link, will check out later; and other advice. It's a bit more than mouthing though, which is why I got a behaviourist, training classes but now looking into why he gets too aggressive. Mouthing surley shouldn't mean jumping up to snap you. I have had dogs in the past, but have not dealt with this.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

RKD said:


> Hi thanks for the link, will check out later; and other advice. It's a bit more than mouthing though, which is why I got a behaviourist, training classes but now looking into why get cats too aggressive. Mouthing surley shouldn't mean jumping up to snap you. I have had dogs in the past, but have not dealt with this.


Molly used to do this-until I seen the light


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Yes, they can according to my vet and a few breeders I have spoken to after this happened: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/157731-clicking-stifle.html
> 
> Apparently high protein diets from complete foods in large breeds can be linked to OCD, panosteitis and more musculoskeletal problems - my vet gave me links to some studies; but I can't find them right now  :frown2:.
> 
> I believe it is down to the source of the protein; I have switched Kilo to raw now and he is doing brilliantly.


Hello, I have read a lot on both these arguments/opinions since posting. Before joining this site I didn't know they existed! Obviously no one has enough valid evidence over the years to claim one over the other and it's probably the case as stated by others on the forum - it depends on how it works with your dog.I will have to wait and see if it makes a difference. But I am still looking at all angles of reducing this aggression, including changing my training methods.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> I had my Springer on RC when she was a pup-30% protein. I used to fall in to bed every night in tears as she was horrible. Soon as I changed to Raw she calmed right down.
> I've said it before, how many dogs are in rescue when owners cant cope with unruly dogs- just because they're fed rubbish.


I can see why!! But wouldn't do it to my little man. I have thought sooooo hard over the last year about getting another dog. If I give in now - I could have possibly lost the best friend ever.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> I had my Springer on RC when she was a pup-30% protein. I used to fall in to bed every night in tears as she was horrible. Soon as I changed to Raw she calmed right down.
> I've said it before, how many dogs are in rescue when owners cant cope with unruly dogs- just because they're fed rubbish.


Also, I feel it's my responisbility to settle him as my children are not getting a good experience from my decision to have a family friend. They are all used to cats.
We are all training him though - it is a family thing.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Yes, they can according to my vet and a few breeders I have spoken to after this happened: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/157731-clicking-stifle.html
> 
> Apparently high protein diets from complete foods in large breeds can be linked to OCD, panosteitis and more musculoskeletal problems - my vet gave me links to some studies; but I can't find them right now  :frown2:.
> 
> I believe it is down to the source of the protein; I have switched Kilo to raw now and he is doing brilliantly.


I have heard this too and would want to avoid it. Which is why I introduced a better quality protein 3 days ago. (advice from some forum members). He is a Lab/Collie, approx 18 kg at 6mths old. Lovely temperament otherwise.
I am also looking into Raw.


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## GizzyDawn (Jul 14, 2011)

I am having the same problem with my 5mth old Maltese who bites/nips my hands and hangs on to my trouser legs or goes for my feet and it's driving me nuts now. I honestly believe that this is a result of my husband playing 'tug' with her. It seems to have made her more aggressive somehow! It's annoying because when she is at her worst 'he is at work' and doesn't get the brunt of her bad behaviour. She is totally 'pooped' by the time he gets home and he thinks 'she's cute'. Grrrrrr!

I was told to hit her on the nose with a newpaper to stop the biting .... Nice! Don't think I will be doing that somehow.... 
My Vet told me to place a few stones in a small tin and shake it when she uses her teeth - it does stop her in her tracks but I have been doing this for over two weeks now and not seeing much improvement on the 'nipping' side of things. 

My pup is a Maltese (Gizzy) and they are reknowned for their 'Zoomies' so I expected that behaviour. They just run about all over the place for no apparent reason - it's comical really! Bizarrely, she is worse AFTER a walk - how does that work?
Never heard/read about too much protein though... interesting - she has chicken meals. Perhaps I should try her on lamb? 

It will be interesting to read responses to this thread to see what advice is given regarding the nipping/biting etc.

I hope your problem sorts itself out soon it can be so exhausting can't it?


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> Home Is where I get my raw food from, send them an email for more information - they are really nice.
> 
> I want to comend you on your perserverence, a lot of people would've give up by now and sent them to a rescue.
> 
> ...


Thanks Nicole. I'm too pedantic to give up, but this does get me into trouble with humans and management. LOL! My special needs background (lecturer) won't let me give up!:thumbup1: It's against my principles - I wouldn't do it to a child/teenager.
I'm dreading my family getting fed up and saying he has to go. I've planned and waited such a long time (years) to have another dog, even gone part-time work to accomodate!

* we attend a weekly training/agility/socialising course. But I have found out on this site that the behaviourist/training is Dominance method, chokers etc. :shocked:. So looking at dropping this method. Too negative. 
Most of the time it is treats, praise etc. Which they do agree with of course.
* he goes MANIC when we get to classes though, pulling, getting to others - really hard work getting him to focus. Too much going on around him. Other classes of the same going on. He wants to play though NOT fight.
* yes we remove him when he does this. Just done it! Have gone to check on him (5 mins), caledl him back and he's fallen asleep in his cage (unlocked) won't come to me! :001_huh:

I will keep on with it all.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

GizzyDawn said:


> I am having the same problem with my 5mth old Maltese who bites/nips my hands and hangs on to my trouser legs or goes for my feet and it's driving me nuts now. I honestly believe that this is a result of my husband playing 'tug' with her. It seems to have made her more aggressive somehow! It's annoying because when she is at her worst 'he is at work' and doesn't get the brunt of her bad behaviour. She is totally 'pooped' by the time he gets home and he thinks 'she's cute'. Grrrrrr!
> 
> I was told to hit her on the nose with a newpaper to stop the biting .... Nice! Don't think I will be doing that somehow....
> My Vet told me to place a few stones in a small tin and shake it when she uses her teeth - it does stop her in her tracks but I have been doing this for over two weeks now and not seeing much improvement on the 'nipping' side of things.
> ...


Hi my friend!! Yes very exhausting, but worrying now. As the days have gone by I have noted (after ALL the comments from forum and research I have done) that he is not hyper - that would mean he is like that all of the time. Now it's more 'at times' especially when you try to stroke and play with him.Which is suposed to be the most fun for us humans  He doesn't like being told NO! he seems to go into attack mode.

I have had dogs years ago and never had problems. Never looked into methods of training, nutrition, agility, intelligence etc. etc. The methods you state; I used then and have tried today but with no respite.

You will get lots of advice from this site it's great! Keep following the comments, it's addictive. You can only try until something works, perseverance also. Which is why I'm still here, logged on at all hours when my little man sleeps! See also my post 're-training 6mth puppy' in behaviour.

Good luck:thumbup:


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Have skimmed over this thread, and most of the advice seems to be about food (which is great).

I just wanted to touch on 2 things...

Neutering - If neutering solved all behavioural problems (or if not neutering was the cause), then there would be no breeders left in the country. Seriously, think about it. Breeders can live with up to 6 or 7 entire dogs/bitches and never go near a vet for 'the op' for any of their dogs. Also, neutering too early (especially in a medium sized breed such as a lab) can be very detrimental to their skeletal growth later on. Anecdotally, I have also seen some dogs do a Jekyll and Hyde transformation after neutering too early, from confident and slightly boisterous to timid and afraid.

Crating - Have you also thought about some form of crate training? It seems that your puppy needs to learn how to relax and spend time being happy alone with himself instead of demanding attention all of the time from his 'pack'. You might want to look into that.

Hope it all works out.

:thumbup1:


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi, thanks for your input and i agree with you now on neutering - which is why I cancelled his appointment - just wasn't 100% sure for such a major op. My husband couldn't believe the reason why people have it done! i.e. behaviour; and suggested he sleeps in the spare room if he ever winds me up LOL!:001_huh:; 
Yes we got a cage and he uses it well. 
Have looked into raw food today.
Have looked into another behaviourist that isn't using Dominance methods (i think I may have wound my little man up). I need to cut to the chase with his biting.
This site is brilliant for understanding the collie breedhttp://www.bordercollies.co.uk/aboutCollies.php


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## GizzyDawn (Jul 14, 2011)

RKD, I feel for you, it's so exhausting isn't it trying to get a pup to focus etc. but- RESULT! I have tried a method on Gizzy this morning and my goodness what a transformation after just 15 minutes. She is now resting!

Hold a piece of chicken/or a sensible 'soft treat in your left hand, and hold your right palm out to your dog (near your right side) and softly & calmy say 'Touch' when your dog touches your right hand without biting (and it will) give them the treat from the left. Do this about half a dozen times and wow - it really gains their focus and calms the dog too. From there you should be able to continue training for sit/stay/wait. She loved it! After 15 minutes I gently waved my hands and said 'All Done, All Gone' and she calmy walked over to her water bowl. FANTASTIC RESULT!

As you have a larger breed it may require a little longer than 15 mins but deffo worth a try? The positive result gives you such a boost!

How did I learn this?

I was told about a programme called - It's me or the Dog- [Pick TV - Sky or Cable] - and it's excellent. Victoria Stillwell is the Dog Trainer/Behaviourist and gives EXCELLENT advice for all breeds. 
Some dogs on these shows are on the brink of being 'put to sleep' and she transforms these dogs into obedient, loving pets! AND - she says it like it is - if the owners are doing it wrong - SHE SAYS SO! It's quite comical at times!

These half hourly/hourly programmes have really helped me to understand that 'MY' behaviour was causing some of the problems! The 'Tone' I was using was all wrong and I was constantly repeating myself - which doesn't help at all!

Please give this programme a viewing - it's free - and you never know - it might just help!

I am feeling so good about my result this morning - I am off to do my ironing now - and I HATE IRONING!

Good luck:thumbup:


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Yes hi!

I usually watch it too, but have just come off the phone with another behaviourist. Little man goes hyper when she is on (other dogs - not her) :lol: I have used many of her positive training techniques - especially for distraction like our cats, dogs on the other side of the road, bikes, wheelie bins, cows etc. etc. funny man! Distraction techniques with treats is powerful:thumbup:

I am meeting up with another behaviourist as recommended from a forum member next week. Sounds like she can undo some of what I have done. No dominance used, or Alph et. etc... Fingers crossed.

Have fun!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GizzyDawn said:


> RKD, I feel for you, it's so exhausting isn't it trying to get a pup to focus etc. but- RESULT! I have tried a method on Gizzy this morning and my goodness what a transformation after just 15 minutes. She is now resting!
> 
> Hold a piece of chicken/or a sensible 'soft treat in your left hand, and hold your right palm out to your dog (near your right side) and softly & calmy say 'Touch' when your dog touches your right hand without biting (and it will) give them the treat from the left. Do this about half a dozen times and wow - it really gains their focus and calms the dog too. From there you should be able to continue training for sit/stay/wait. She loved it! After 15 minutes I gently waved my hands and said 'All Done, All Gone' and she calmy walked over to her water bowl. FANTASTIC RESULT!
> 
> ...


Not picking but just out of interest really - why do you suggest that larger breeds will take longer to learn? (unless I have misunderstood your post ).


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Maybe to give the dog extra focus as it'll hurt more than a smaller dog? :confused5:


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Quick 5 - 10 mins is usually enough, at intervals throughout the day, irrelevant of the size.. in my humble opinion. He either gets bored quick or full! I then let him free play or leave him to rest.

Glad you're getting on with your ironing now - no excuses!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

RKD said:


> Quick 5 - 10 mins is usually enough, at intervals throughout the day, irrelevant of the size.. in my humble opinion. He either gets bored quick or full! I then let him free play or leave him to rest.
> 
> Glad you're getting on with your ironing now - no excuses!


That's why I was wondering about the large breed comment. I know for a fact that I couldn't keep Kilo doing the same repetitive thing for 15 minutes, he would get frustrated and start to misbehave .


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## dvnbiker (Dec 2, 2009)

RKD, I have read this thread with interest and your brain must be well and truly boggled by now - not sure that is even a word. 

Everyone has their own opinion about food but it comes down to doing the best you can on the budget you have. I do also feed raw and it has worked out cheaper for my 3 and wouldnt go back to complete now but it takes time to research. 

I have three BCs so hope that I can help with the BC side of your pup. What you have to remember is you have two working breeds in your pup and you could end up with the good and bad points of both breeds. Easiest way to tire out a BC is through mental stimulation and not through miles and miles of walks (although mine love this as well). Really look into clicker training as the possibilities are endless and you can teach them so much. All of mine are clicker trained and we continually update tricks and teach new ones. 

As to the biting, at about 5 months the teeth go through a settling period so if he is mouthing/biting/chewing I would suspect that it is this period he is going through which means they will be sore. Frozen kongs are a great idea, also rope toys that have been soaked in water and then frozen can also sooth the teeth. If a dog mouths me, I will screech which will normally make a pup stop and will then turn around and ignore it for a bit. If the pup is still jumping up at me then it removed to a crate until it calmed down, once it had calmed down I would then let it back out again. This way they are getting rewarded for calm behaviour which is going to be key for you. 

You could look into doing agility - alot of clubs now do foundation classes that you can start from about 6-8 months old. But I warn you, agility is addictive!


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I would urge caution with choosing the highest protein complete food possible for puppies as it can push growth too fast and cause problems.


Read that post properly, thas not me saying that. I think the vet saying that is right but has got a bit mixed up because thet are not educated in proper natural nutrition. I do think all the protein stuff is nonsense as i said in my post, protein is nonsense in dry foods, it the calories that cause energy. It is the quality of the protein/raw food full stop, the protein is low but it is QUALITY and works along with all the other nutrients conveniently packed naturally in raw food. Every thing works better and naturally. In dry foods is a substance called *MSG*,monosodium glutamate, free glutamate, AKA autolysed yeast, hydrolysed soy protein yeast, hydrolysed vegtables... its often called 'natural flavouring!!!! Look it up it is an *EXCITOTOXIN*

I first found out about it when I was looking for information about Mischiefs epilepsy, scientits use it in experiments for 30 years to purposely create ischemic strokes, trigger epileptic seizures, destroy cell tissue and create obesity, in test subjects it induces dogs to eats food faster, it increases groth hormones, triggers diabetes and damages eye cells by causing swelling and necrosis and the disappearance of the inner retinol neuron. MSG is an amino acid utilised throughout the mammalian body. These gluten receptors are present in the CNS as the major mediators of EXCITORY neurotransmission and excitotoxicity


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

and that to a BC x Lab and no wonder you have got a challenge on your hands! I think I would just get tough on the litte bugger and floor him!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Miss chief said:


> Read that post properly, thas not me saying that. I think the vet saying that is right but has got a bit mixed up because thet are not educated in proper natural nutrition. I do think all the protein stuff is nonsense as i said in my post, protein is nonsense in dry foods, it the calories that cause energy. It is the quality of the protein/raw food full stop, the protein is low but it is QUALITY and works along with all the other nutrients conveniently packed naturally in raw food. Every thing works better and naturally. In dry foods is a substance called *MSG*,monosodium glutamate, free glutamate, AKA autolysed yeast, hydrolysed soy protein yeast, hydrolysed vegtables... its often called 'natural flavouring!!!! Look it up it is an *EXCITOTOXIN*
> 
> I first found out about it when I was looking for information about Mischiefs epilepsy, scientits use it in experiments for 30 years to purposely create ischemic strokes, trigger epileptic seizures, destroy cell tissue and create obesity, in test subjects it induces dogs to eats food faster, it increases groth hormones, triggers diabetes and damages eye cells by causing swelling and necrosis and the disappearance of the inner retinol neuron. MSG is an amino acid utilised throughout the mammalian body. These gluten receptors are present in the CNS as the major mediators of EXCITORY neurotransmission and excitotoxicity


I did read the post properly . I was replying to the last part of your post which I quoted which just said Choose a dog food that contains the highest amount of protein. I would imagine many people skim reading may do just that, regardless of the food.

I absolutely understand that it is the quality of the protein and about all the other additives in dry food.

I am extremely lucky to have a vet who is educated in proper, natural nutrition as she studied it in humans extensively to help her autistic son and then became interested in the benefits to animals. It was my vet who suggested that I fed raw.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Miss chief said:


> and that to a BC x Lab and no wonder you have got a challenge on your hands! I think I would just get tough on the litte bugger and floor him!


Thats not very nice advice to someone whos looking for positive ways to train a dog- I'm glad you aren't anywhere near mine.


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> Thats not very nice advice to someone whos looking for positive ways to train a dog- I'm glad you aren't anywhere near mine.


It may not sound very nice, but that is exactly what I would do, I had a 6 month old GSD X Lab come to me just was doing much the same thing. I tolerated it for a couple of days then sorted the isuue very quickly and effectively job done no pussy footing around, she soon understood what was right and what was wrong, how more positive can you get? Move on, go forward. The dog is properly biting her, that is wrong, the dog cant be happy nor can the owner. It like a spoily miserable kid, the ones that are always naughty and grisely/screaming/throwing temper tantrums are the ones who have never be put right or had the right startin the first place, how can you go on and get a relationship going to train a dog when this issue is dragging on?


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

RKD said:


> Thanks Nicole. I'm too pedantic to give up, but this does get me into trouble with humans and management. LOL! My special needs background (lecturer) won't let me give up!:thumbup1: It's against my principles - I wouldn't do it to a child/teenager.
> I'm dreading my family getting fed up and saying he has to go. I've planned and waited such a long time (years) to have another dog, even gone part-time work to accomodate!
> 
> * we attend a weekly training/agility/socialising course. But I have found out on this site that the behaviourist/training is Dominance method, chokers etc. :shocked:. So looking at dropping this method. Too negative.
> ...





Miss chief said:


> and that to a BC x Lab and no wonder you have got a challenge on your hands! I think I would just get tough on the litte bugger and floor him!


Hi, thanks for you comment; not sure what 'flooring' is, is it where you pin their nose down to the floor, or pull their jaw back or squeeze their nozzle together - our behaviourist recommended all that. Also the use of a choker which after speaking on the phone to a trainer and another behaviourist he may be rebelling to any physical reprimand (we have only yanked on the choker) It's got to be a family thing and I can't expect my children (teens) to do it; (the above recommendations) especially when they are alone. I get tough on my children when they over step the mark (not flooring! LOL) but they don't bite back, so that' easy.

It is a problem, and I do appreciate your concern - it's obviously NOT acceptable behaviour whichever way you look at it, or go about it. The amount of advice given by members is incredible and I thank you all!


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

RKD said:


> Hi, thanks for you comment; not sure what 'flooring' is, is it where you pin their nose down to the floor, or pull their jaw back or squeeze their nozzle together - our behaviourist recommended all that. Also the use of a choker which after speaking on the phone to a trainer and another behaviourist he may be rebelling to any physical reprimand (we have only yanked on the choker) It's got to be a family thing and I can't expect my children (teens) to do it; (the above recommendations) especially when they are alone. I get tough on my children when they over step the mark (not flooring! LOL) but they don't bite back, so that' easy.
> 
> It is a problem, and I do appreciate your concern - it's obviously NOT acceptable behaviour whichever way you look at it, or go about it. The amount of advice given by members is incredible and I thank you all!


_Floor_ is none of the above, its an old turn of phrase 'wipe the floor with'. I cant say I have heard anything but bad results with pinning them to the floor with _most_ people and 'pull their jaw back or squeeze their nozzle together' just sounds plain bizarre. With the choker, its just causing pain. With the GSD X Lab which I got at around 6 months old, the biting bit was just plain unwarranted, no rhymn nor reason as for why, again the dog hadn't been taught anything, so enough was enough and it was a case of simply holding firmly with a hand either side under the jaw, just lifting the front feet slightly off the ground whilst having a damn _good growling_ at the dog. Then I would ignore her, and I had to see that my partner ignored her too, then later she was up for a little play learning, finishing on a happy note with praise each time she got better and forgot all about biting. It only took a few times.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Miss chief said:


> _Floor_ is none of the above, its an old turn of phrase 'wipe the floor with'. I cant say I have heard anything but bad results with pinning them to the floor with _most_ people and 'pull their jaw back or squeeze their nozzle together' just sounds plain bizarre. With the choker, its just causing pain. With the GSD X Lab which I got at around 6 months old, the biting bit was just plain unwarranted, no rhymn nor reason as for why, again the dog hadn't been taught anything, so enough was enough and it was a case of simply holding firmly with a hand either side under the jaw, just lifting the front feet slightly off the ground whilst having a damn _good growling_ at the dog. Then I would ignore her, and I had to see that my partner ignored her too, then later she was up for a little play learning, finishing on a happy note with praise each time she got better and forgot all about biting. It only took a few times.


Please don't do this, unless you would like your dog to obey you out of fear instead of respect.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

RKD if you have any sense in your head you're realize not to take ANY advice from Miss Chief.

Flooring a dog, indeed 

Floor my dog and she'll bite you and I will too, plus I might just consider using that old rusted sledgehammer out back.

RKD, you're doing great so far  puppies are hard work and collie x lab is going to be hyper, once your pup reaches a year old look into agility. I feed my Mally on Weinwrights, Skinners didn't agree with her (aka she woulden't eat it the fussy madam that she is) but one of her pups I had was great on it. I don't make allot of money because i'm only part time so understand wanting to find good food but that won't cost a fortune.

Hopefully your newer classes will be cheaper too, I pay £10 a year membership with £2 per class  

Have any issues come to me or some of the real trainers on here like CarolineH or Leashedforlife, they know what they are doing


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> RKD if you have any sense in your head you're realize not to take ANY advice from Miss Chief.
> 
> Flooring a dog, indeed
> 
> Floor my dog and she'll bite you and I will too, plus I might just consider using that old rusted sledgehammer out back.


Just exactly what is wrong with with holding a dog firmly under the jaw and giving it a good Growling to??? Its what I have been doing if and when necessary all my life with the numerous rescue dogs I had over the years without having to return any, ooh and that without the help of the type of trainer that has sprung up.  None have ever been fearful  Of course there are so many dogs in rescue centres and constantly returned to rescue centres, because all the trainers these days are so good? 

Have you ever seen what a bitch does when there is a puppy that constantly pushes its luck, the puppy will often scream blue murder but the bitch has bardly, if at all touched it!


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I was always told it I don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all. Hope someone who is more knowledgeable will come and educate you.


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## Miss chief (Jun 24, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Flooring a dog, indeed


In addition to what I said above how come you seem to think the other methods recently mentioned were acceptable, ie pinning to the floor and using a choke chain? I think most people would be aware of the damage and pain a choke chain can cause if used unsupervised in the hands of a novive what comes after the choke chain, a prong collar ???? I fail to see how holding a dog firmly under the jaw and giving a serious growling is anywhere near as harsh, but it is effective.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Because it scares them, it makes them FEAR YOU, when an ''alpha'' does this in a WOLF PACK, it tells the pup "Hey! I will KILL you" - Why on Earth do you want your own puppy to think that if they do wrong they'll either get beaten, or you will kill it. 

This theory of pinning them down, alpha-rolling, growling etc is seriously outdated. More humane methods and theories have come about, and more holes and holes have been picked in the methods that you used.

IT doesn't solve the problem, what it does it quickly masks it as the dog is too scared to dare disobey you. What kind of relationship is that? Is the dog happy? 

It's the same people who approve this kind of behaviour that also approve the uses of E-Collars, Choke Chains, Prong Chains, kicking dogs etc.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Havent read it all (sorry) so it may have already been mentioned but the only thing that worked for my little terrier was "distraction". Sounds bizarre and how on earth are they going to know "it's" wrong if "its" not addressed but somehow it did. When I first tried it, I was convinced it was useless but hey ho, it worked for nearly every issue we had. If all else failed " distraction".
It seemed that embarking on a fun game or shoving one of her toys in her mouth if she was mouthing a bit rough got the message across.

If I had held her to the floor and growled I would have frightened her. She is v sensitive and in my book fear and nastiness go hand in hand in a dogs world. It would have put us on a v slippery slope. Not something I would recommend I'm afraid.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

You guys are going to hate me for saying this...but I did 'floor' Paddy 3 times when he was growing up.

I remember each occasion, and I will coyly admit that it worked (although that doesn't necessarily mean it will work in another case).

The times this happened were all between the ages of 5 months and 8 months.

1st time was for continually biting me and OH and really pushing his luck. He wasn't listening at all, it was very late, I was very tired and he knew that he was disobeying me. I jumped out of my seat on the couch and grabbed him by the neck, threw him to the floor and shouted very loudly in his face, "ENOUGH!!!!" He laid there, averting my gaze and completely motionless for about 10-15 seconds - in complete shock I guess. He never ever went that far again.

2nd time musn't have been too much later. This time, the object of his biting and chasing was the cat. A 13 year old cat who had given him plenty of warning. I then also gave him plenty of warning. When he reared up on 2 legs about to land on the cat, I jumped in again. Same treatment. Since that day he has never ever repeated that behaviour. 

If the cat is eating, Paddy kindly lays down and waits for the cat to finish (not so much as a nudge of the cat's behind) before he goes to the bowl to see if there is anything left. He follows the cat as if the cat were his father and if any other cats come near the house (causing Tigger to wail through the window) Paddy is straight there to 'warn off the intruder'.

3rd and final time I shocked everyone we walk with. Paddy was about 8 months old at this time. We were walking in the park when suddenly he just turned around and ran off in the opposite direction. I called him and told him to "Stop" which he did. He then turned around, looked at me and then continued running off out of view to somewhere else in the park. I walked after him, and when I caught up, I discovered that around 3 or 4 of the usual dog walkers we walk with had entered the park and Paddy was bouncing around happy as larry with their dogs.

I excused myself, walked up to Paddy and grabbed him by the scruff of his neck. He tried to wriggle free, so I forced him to the floor with a "NO!!!! BAD BOY!!!!" I admit I might have hurt him as he did yelp. I calmly placed his lead onto his collar, I excused myself from the group and told them I'd meet up with them on the field and we walked off in the opposite direction in silence. I then waited with Paddy on the spot he ran from, and then I released him when the other guys were about 10 meters from us with a "Good boy. Say Hello" and a nod of my head to give him permission. He has never ever ran off from me again, not even for an in-season bitch!


Would I do it again? Yes. Why? Because it worked for me and Paddy and I got immediate results.

We do positive reinforcement too, and we still attend dog training every week (Paddy has attained his Puppy Foundation and Bronze Awards and sits his Silver exam in a couple of weeks).

I'm dedicated to my dog and he adores me back. But like any teenager, sometimes they need someone bigger and stronger before they go physically too far. He needed that.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

I would agree that sometimes a good rollicking can do a power of good, dogs do like to take the pee sometimes. My big gob is enough.
In this instance I think its been more or less proven that the OP had her dog on a food that was disagreeing with him and making him hyper. Add to that some not very nice advice from so some so called 'behaviourists'. Is it any wonder hes a bit of a handful.
If I growled at my dogs they'd think I'd lost the plot


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I have 2 x 13 yr old cats and Heidi loved the idea of chase. Possessiveness over food if they came anywhere near when she was eating and when they jumped the 6' wall around our house chased and tried to get them.
"Distraction" with a favourite toy or treat would stop her in her tracks. If necessary with her on a longline (that didnt last long). She soon realised it wasnt acceptable and if she felt the need to chase, would grab a chewy from her toy box and chew like mad while she watched instead

Feeding - I fed them first or took her food away and she soon realised her place was lower down in the pecking order. Soon worked out that she doesnt eat theirs and they dont eat hers. 

As she's got older, she understands the word "no" so it's a lot easier.

Recall - with a treat purely for this and nothing else, she responds immediately wherever she is - so I can stop her in her tracks if need be.

Yes, it took than "Flooring" but I know which way I prefer.
You wouldnt floor a child!!! Just as it's not longer acceptable or necessary to smack a child I dont think we should have to resort to these fearful measures with our dogs. Respect has to be earned and sometimes you have to work hard to gain it. Much better when it's reciprocated too.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi Classixuk,

I think you've explained it well, and put it into some context. It's obvious it isn't a way of life for your friend. However some dominant methods are a way of life and basically that's how I've been advised to treat him. I know now it isn't working. I have changed his food but it is difficult to tell yet. With all the advice I now feel that he isn't hyper.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

It's good to hear you are feeling a little better about it.

Sometimes all we can do is put forward our views and encounters and hope somewhere amongst it you find something helpful.

I have been there many times with our food scenario. All v good advice but some things you know are out before you start, others you have tried and then you read something that hits the spot and starts you off on the right track


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks, this site has been brilliant! especially Rottie. Every thing you said is so true, but it's good to get started, listen to the pros and cons then come to your own decision.

I am persevering for lots of reasons.

Unfortunately I've not had a good weekend with my little man being nasty/biting (he also got my husband), but he chased one of our most loved cats into the road. 
We were just off out on a late walk when it happened, Bonnie (the cat) always walked for a while with us, wherever we went, for years, this time the dog set to chase her whilst I had him on the lead, but she shot infront of a car in pannick. My husband dealt with what happened next, I just thank God he was with me. We burried her Saturday afternoon.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm so so sorry for your loss.

Can you see any improvement with the pup at all?


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Oh and "especially rottie" That's it, you're off my Christmas card list!

Only joking lol, she has a wealth of knowledge


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi Nicole,

Thanks for your concern; and also for your advice as I got a lot of info from a site you recommended. It's now saved on my desktop so I can dip in and out when I get time.

Just about to post an update. 
Because of losing our Bonnie I haven't had the frame of mind or patience to be honest to play outdoors with 'little man' because has been such hard work; and I must admit some blame towards him. It would have been a bit difficult inbetween tears.

This is going somewhere... honest! So i sat with him after his afternoon sleep in my office and just sat there doing basic commands such as sit, down, paw and worked more on his 'stay'. Probably about an hour. I must say I was flicking on and off the emails I have received from Rottie, sifting through the advice given. The behaviourist had suggested I got rid of his 'tugging' toy I bought when we got him, as it apparently encourages aggression in dogs; but after reading another bit of the email contradicting and explaining this type of play I got it back out. He went crazy for it! very playful I mean. After about 15 minutes of this he slumped on the kitchen floor, shattered! and he's been much calmer since; granted the cat isn't around to wind him up.
* so I have concluded that he isn't hyper

* there have definately been triggers as to why he has been behaving the way he has, and I have to be big and admit that my methods (dominant - I have realised, and only after following specialists advice) does not work with my dog nor does it with me.

* I have changed his diet to Wainwrights 30% but haven't noticed a difference yet.

* I do believe (after much research) that he has strong collie traits and one is keeping his mind active and occupied. Lots of people would say he should be a quick learner, intelligent etc..but had no idea how to accomodate it. Hence leading to boredom/aggression. (Course I might be utterly wrong!)

I read from someone... (thank you for showing me the 'light') that for a collie as little as 3 x 30 mins walking etc. per day may be sufficient but the amount of stimulation they need is far more in comparison.

When I got my little man I was so worried about him getting enough physical excercise; I didn't realise how much mental excercise he may need!

So... going back to your question on how we are getting on. After spending less time outdoors/walking and more time mentally stimulating him it does seem that I have a more placid dog... dare I say.... friend. Which is where I want it to be.

I do believe in life that everything happens for a reason. The whole of this weekend has been the biggest 'jolt' I've had in a while. Hope it works out for us all. I now need to concentrate on getting my upset children on board again; and that means getting things right with my little man.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sorry to hear of your loss .

I think you are right about the 'jolt' effect of this weekend's events; you certainly seem to be turning a corner with your pup .


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

... also forgot to mention... I have booked in with another behaviorist who doesn't use chokers, no dominance used whats so ever, i.e. needing 'permission' to do anything - even sniffing down at grass I recall! She will assess his behaviour, and reassured me that anything wrong can be corrected because of his young age. A big lesson learnt here!
I wouldn't have know who else to turn to if it wasn't for people on this site.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks Dogless for all your advice too.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

So sorry to hear the loss of your beloved cat.

Really hope it works out and commend you for all your efforts and everything you have already put into place so quickly to try and help your pup.

Please keep us up todate with progress reports


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Thank you - people on this site have kept me going!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Sorry about your cat, I know how you feel as Maya killed my rat and It wasn't a pretty sight either :frown2:

On the other hand i'm pleased to hear things are going better :thumbup:


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

dvnbiker said:


> RKD, I have read this thread with interest and your brain must be well and truly boggled by now - not sure that is even a word.
> 
> Everyone has their own opinion about food but it comes down to doing the best you can on the budget you have. I do also feed raw and it has worked out cheaper for my 3 and wouldnt go back to complete now but it takes time to research.
> 
> ...


Just letting you know...I'm working on it!:thumbup:


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

NicoleW said:


> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/97249-what-look-trainer-behaviourist.html
> 
> Will be helpful, do this sooner rather than later.


Can't wait! 9.00 am in the morn. Bright and early. 2nd behaviourist. Will keep you all posted. :thumbup1:


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Brilliant! Let us know how it goes x


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

look forward to hearing some news


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi DVNBIKER and friends,

Just a quickie; my head is truly 'un-boggled' as I have just been for my 2nd appointment with a behaviourist. http://www.waggawuffins.com 
I can safetly go back to my old ways. Spent an hour and a half with her. LOTS to digest! but a lot of it was familiar either from my old ways, research on the web and yes ... friends from PForum.
She did agree that it was beyond puppy mouthing and definately needed to put an end to it, but not with dominant methods. Clicker came into it and lots of demonstration so I will dig it out again.
I will post later when I have more time - little man's just gone to sleep and we have peace and calm for a few minutes. Need to keep the 'big' man happy and get some housework done before he gets home from work! (ouch ladies!). x


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## GizzyDawn (Jul 14, 2011)

I pointed out in my post that it took 15 mins - When I attended puppy classes the larger dogs seemed to need more time on the same exercise - not sure why. Trainer said extend training time for larger dogs because depending on breed, they sometimes have a shorter attention/memory span. It was just a 'pssibility'...


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GizzyDawn said:


> I pointed out in my post that it took 15 mins - When I attended puppy classes the larger dogs seemed to need more time on the same exercise - not sure why. Trainer said extend training time for larger dogs because depending on breed, they sometimes have a shorter attention/memory span. It was just a 'pssibility'...


I see - was just genuinely interested in where it had come from; not a criticism . Kilo has a fairly short attention span; he tends to learn things very, very fast, then only do a few repetitions before he has lost interest - so I reduce his training time rather than extend it as he would get very frustrated and just do more, shorter sessions.


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## RKD (Jul 11, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I see - was just genuinely interested in where it had come from; not a criticism . Kilo has a fairly short attention span; he tends to learn things very, very fast, then only do a few repetitions before he has lost interest - so I reduce his training time rather than extend it as he would get very frustrated and just do more, shorter sessions.


Yes I'm finding that with my little man too!

He seems to be settling down now and much calmer. The 2nd behaviourist recommend the use of a house line to stand on (short leash) to stop him jumping up and snapping at us. This is working but better than themethods we were previously told to use. http://www.waggawuffins.com
To be honest there was soooo much we needed to go over, I have found it diffincult to sit down and feed it all back.
No raised voices, sometimes no speaking. Just praise and reward (back to what I did years ago!) 
It might sound very ignorant on my part but I truly believed that keeping dogs had changed since I last had one and thought 'this is how it's done now'  (after taking advice of 1st Behaviourist).
It seemed that the poor thing couldnt do anything without 'my permission' (advice given) such as sniffing grass, not listening the 1st time, jumping, rushing in for his food etc.
He's NOT trying to dominate me, I don't need to show him who the boss is and can get back to just enjoying him being a young one.
He didn't like the 'dominant' method of keeping him and obviously showed it by snapping/nipping/biting at us! So all is much calmer now.
Difficult to tell if the change is better quality protein food has made a difference with all the changes we have made - but he's got a lovely shiny coat 

I have made comments all over the place linked to the outcome of all of this; one in particular on why behaviourist's/trainer's methods are NOT monitored/observed regularly; to comply with the health and wellbeing of dogs. If a method is deemed outdated and bordering abuse - then ban them from charging and giving dangerous advice to those that are naive or ignorant?

Thanks again. Training with his brain - not with a chain; as one member quoted.


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