# Please help....my dog eats stones



## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

Hello
Please help 
My Poodle-cross Leo who is now 15 months, is a wonderful dog, with a great temperament.
But ever since he was small he's swallowed stones whole, 
I really hoped he'd grow out of it, but the problem is still there as bad as ever.
We have changed our garden twice to make it harder for him, to no avail.
He doesn't do it when we're out walking, just at home in the garden.

The first time he did it I took him vets straight the way, where they x-rayed him, showing a few large-ish chunks of gravel in his tummy, which he threw up naturally later that day.
We then changed the garden, but he still used to find them.
We changed the patio area again for tiny gravel, thinking it's better for him to swallow small than large. But I'm worried he's swallowing too many, & I don't know if he's passing them.
I've tried discipline, removing him & ignoring the behaviour, I don't know what else to do.

Some advice I've read states that it's natural for them to do it, although not advised obviously.
Other advice says he might die if it carries on, god forbid.

I'm at my wits end with this, Do I stop him from going out in the garden completely?
That would be extremely hard to achieve.

Could it be anything at all to do with his RAW DIET ??
He eats 'Basils' ground mince, offal & bone, vegetables, has a raw knuckle bone once a week, + numerous other raw or natural treats.
He has been on this diet since he was about 5/6 months old.
He looks fantastic on it, & seems very healthy, energetic, & happy.
But could he be missing something in his diet? 

I'd be so grateful for any advice, especially from anyone who has had this problem themselves.
Thank you for taking the time to read my very long post!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Train him to wear a muzzle.


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Train him to wear a muzzle.


Thank you for your reply, it is something I have thought about actually,
maybe it will have to come to that


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Rachelb74 said:


> Thank you for your reply, it is something I have thought about actually,
> maybe it will have to come to that


Provided you introduce it slowly and with treats, etc. it should not be a problem. You can buy ones specifically designed to prevent eating, I believe. At least, you could relax a bit and not have to watch him like a hawk - and it could save you a major problem in the future


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

He will grow out of it eventually; not that it helps with the present.

I've had several collies that have done it and it's been almost impossible to stop them. My dogs have to cross a very large area of gravel to get onto the lawn or into their exercise paddock.

Personally I don't think it's a diet issue more a habit with young dogs.


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Provided you introduce it slowly and with treats, etc. it should not be a problem. You can buy ones specifically designed to prevent eating, I believe. At least, you could relax a bit and not have to watch him like a hawk - and it could save you a major problem in the future


I'll have a look for the specific ones you mention, he is very treat orientated, so maybe it would work with time & patience.
Thanks again for your advice


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> He will grow out of it eventually; not that it helps with the present.
> 
> I've had several collies that have done it and it's been almost impossible to stop them. My dogs have to cross a very large area of gravel to get onto the lawn or into their exercise paddock.
> 
> Personally I don't think it's a diet issue more a habit with young dogs.


Hi
Thanks for your reply.
I hope you're right & he grows out of it.
You're right it's so hard to stop them, & once I try & grab him to remove it from his mouth, he assumes it's a game of chase then, so does it even more. 
I too agree that's it's probably not his diet, more of an adolescence rebellion! thing in a young dog.
At his age everything's a game to him! :frown2:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Twiggy said:


> He will grow out of it eventually; not that it helps with the present.


Actually, it's a heritable OCD behavior in some breeds, well-known in GSDs, for example.

If nothing is done to prevent it, not only will it likely NOT stop, it will go from a now-&-then behavior
to a fluent, well-practiced problem behavior --- IOW, an unconscious & habitual vice - IME.

"Practice makes permanent" is a common trainers' axiom. Preventing practice is very important - 
management is IMO more important than training, as it prevents bad behaviors arising. :yesnod:
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> Train him to wear a muzzle.


exactly - any properly-fitted box muzzle will do, it needs to be comfy & fit well.

He'll also need to be introduced to it as a Good Thing.
There are wonderful clips on UTube that show how best to do this - 
here's my favorite:

Desensitization to basket muzzle - YouTube

Notice that this ACD is very untrusting of strangers, but the trainer's timing & the clear marker clarify 
"what works" so well, this dog confidently interacts with the muzzle while still giving the trainer
a hairy eyeball, :lol: .

When U do it right, the dog will eagerly shove their own nose into the muzzle, & hold it there - 
all U need do is fasten the buckle. A happily-habituated muzzle can be used to bring a dog in, too - 
say the dog's Sacred Name, hold the muzzle up & wave it, & s/he should come running.

BTW, a muzzled dog shouldn't be left out alone - *unless* U are willing to check on her or him,
regularly, & the garden-fence is dog-proof. They also need a plunge-bucket to drink - the whole muzzle
goes into the bucket, so the dog can lap water inside it. IOW, U can't leave a muzzled dog outside,
when u aren't home - & U should check on them every 15 to 20-minutes, when they're out & U are
at home, just in case.

A flat-sided 1-gallon S/S bucket that's HUNG so that it cannot possibly spill, is a safe reservoir.
A hefty double-ended snap secures the bucket's bail, & the other end goes on a screw-in eyebolt.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rachelb74 said:


> ...
> He doesn't do it when we're out walking, just at home in the garden.
> ...


How much time does he spend solo, in the garden?

Boredom is a common root-cause for compulsive behaviors.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> Actually, it's a heritable OCD behavior in some breeds, well-known in GSDs, for example.
> 
> If nothing is done to prevent it, not only will it likely NOT stop, it will go from a now-&-then behavior
> to a fluent, well-practiced problem behavior --- IOW, an unconscious & habitual vice - IME.
> ...


Yes I can quite see it could become so. I suppose because mine have always stopped by the time they got to about 2 yrs old I assumed it was a form of puppy/young dog type behaviour.

Unfortunately we have enormous gravelled areas here.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Twiggy said:


> ...mine have always stopped by... about 2-YO; I assumed it was a form of puppy/young dog type behaviour.


Wow - U've been lucky!  I've seen dogs have 2 or even 3 abdominal surgeries, & were very lucky
to survive. It's an awful habit, & when it reaches OCD status, very hard to reduce, let alone 'stop'.
:nonod:

Scary behavior, in any dog - especially because owners may not see the swallowing, & don't know
until the dog develops a blockage.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> Wow - U've been lucky!  I've seen dogs have 2 or even 3 abdominal surgeries, & were very lucky
> to survive. It's an awful habit, & when it reaches OCD status, very hard to reduce, let alone 'stop'.
> :nonod:
> 
> ...


Yes I have and it's always been a concern every time I've had a pup since we moved here about 17 years ago. I remember one of them used to always bring one piece of gravel into the conservatory every time she went outside until she was about 2 yrs old.


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

Thank you for all your responses & advice.
It is definitely not now & again, it's every time he goes into the garden.
So I'd say it definitely is OCD or obsessional behaviour.
So I have decided to recruit the expertise of a professional dog behavourist, whom I used when Leo was tiny as he was greeting strange dogs in an over exuberant way, & again risking himself getting hurt. 

Trust me Leo is not bored!
I am with him all day, everyday, in fact he seems to have taken over my life.
He is taken on 2 walks per day,
normally 1 long one at the country park- 1 1/2 hours in the morning 
Then a 30 min one in the evening.
He is never left alone in the garden. We have a dog flap that he comes in & out of as & when he chooses.
Obviously I've been having to keep the flap down recently because of his behaviour.
So I am accompanying him everytime he goes outside.
He just scoops up the stones (small gravel) & it's gone, if I chase him, it's a game, & I get nowhere, I've tried ignoring him, to no avail.

Not only do I have the obsession with stones, but he has now taken to trying to destroy everything he can get his paws on in the house too.
To be honest, I'm exhausted.
I have put my heart & soul into raising Leo, & cannot stand to see him putting himself in danger this way.

I would say I have spoiled him, so this is all no doubt my fault that he now does these things.

As I sit here now typing this he is destroying a tennis ball I gave him a moment ago & now I've just discovered he's eaten some of it too.
He seems intent on trying to do himself harm.
I have to have eyes in the back of my head, & watch him like a hawk.
I really feel at my wits end with him.
I'm tired & feeling low this evening, 
No dog could have a better life than I give Leo, & I'm feeling pretty peed off at the moment.
I really love Leo, but I must be killing him with kindness or something.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rachelb74 said:


> It's definitely not now & again, it's every time he goes into the garden... definitely OCD or obsessive.
> I've decided to recruit the [same] behavourist... I used when Leo [as a pup] greeted strange dogs in an OTT way,
> & [risked] getting hurt.
> 
> ...


I hate to interrupt the pity-party, U were really getting on a roll - but can Leo be solo for 10-mins
without fussing, or trying to escape? Will he settle peaceably to gnaw a safe chewie, if U watch telly or read?

Has he ever been crate-trained?

Does he follow U from room-to-room constantly, or will he linger if he's comfy & nothing exciting
is on offer?

Can U go to the bathroom & close the door, or does he enter with U?

There's every possibility that Leo's behavior has zip to do with U, & may be a symptom of anxiety.
Intense anxiety often manifests as obsessive behavior, & chewing is a self-soothing behavior for dogs.
Essentially, *if my hypothesis is correct*, he chews as a form of self-medicating to help himself relax; 
anti-anxiety meds, or even simple OTC calmatives, could help him stop getting wound into knots.

What, When, How, etc, for calmatives - all on one post:
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

It's also possible he suffers from pica - eating the inedible - another stress-related obsession.
If he has vet-insurance, were he mine, i'd ask for a referral to a veterinary-behaviorist.
Pica is potentially fatal, & isn't a job for trainers, by & large. A vet-behaviorist can both
Dx & Rx, plus offer B-Mod protocols to ease his stress. :yesnod:

If he cannot be crated [yet?], i'd suggest a tether installed by clipping an 18-inch long section of bike
cable to an eye-bolt, screwed into the baseboard - or use a 2-ft long hunk of 2x4 lumber, & screw the eyebolt
into the center of a wide-side, midway along.

Then he can safely be stationed within eyesight, but without getting into dangerous or valuable items,
& the portable version is used with any door in the house - slip the 2x4 behind it, slide the cable under
the door, CLOSE it, & clip the free end to the dog's buckle AKA tag-collar. Voila! Move him anywhere,
station him in front of exit doors, interior doors, closet doors... any room in the house.

I'd work on introducing him to an airline-approved shipping-crate, so that when U aren't home, he's safe.
U don't want him chewing power-cords, raiding trash-bins, eating toxic or sharp-edged things, etc.
A crate is for lying-down, so sizing it is simple: go to any pet-supply shop, ask to see floor models,
& "try them on" the dog: if he can enter, U-turn, & exit, it's big-enuf. He shouldn't have room to stand
with his head at full height; the interior is typically 2 to 4-inches taller than the dog's withers, & length
is proportional.

How much does he weigh?
What's the other parent? Poodle x ____ ?


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

Thank you for your indepth advice, I will read it properly in the morning, it's a bit late now & I don't think I could take it all in!
Leo weighs about 23 kgs & his mother is a poodle crossed Newfoundland 
His father is a full poodle, so Leo is 3/4 poodle & 1/4 Newfoundland.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rachelb74 said:


> Leo weighs about 23 kgs; his mother is a Poodle x Newfoundland,
> his father is a Poodle, so Leo is 3/4 Poodle & 1/4 Newfoundland.


So he's approx 50# -
a medium airline-crate, the next step down from a 2-ft x 3-ft Large, should accommodate him easily.

Newfies aren't often prone to eating-disorders or pica, altho it can happen to any dog - 
i'm thinking only of likely heritable issues. They're more apt to develop phobias or be timid - 
quite a few giant breeds have a heritable streak of timidity.

He may have developed it spontaneously; mis-wiring or faulty brain chemistry do odd things.
His parentage might have nothing to do with it. Do U know either parent, or any siblings?


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## ackerleynelson (Feb 14, 2013)

Buy muzzle for him............!!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I had a rescue Shorthaired pointer who would chew stones. It was boredom with him. I substituted toys, played with him on walks and didn`t leave him alone in the garden and he stopped.
Poodles are incredibly bright, active dogs. They need stimulation or they will certainly find mischief.
Crating will make him worse - he is quite likely to find other, more harmful ways to pass the time.


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I had a rescue Shorthaired pointer who would chew stones. It was boredom with him. I substituted toys, played with him on walks and didn`t leave him alone in the garden and he stopped.
> Poodles are incredibly bright, active dogs. They need stimulation or they will certainly find mischief.
> Crating will make him worse - he is quite likely to find other, more harmful ways to pass the time.


Hi
I wasn't planning on crating him anyway to be honest.
Yes poodles are very bright! He needs constant attention, thinking of starting agility with him in the new year, maybe that will expel some excess physical & mental energy


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

ackerleynelson said:


> Buy muzzle for him............!!


If you'd bothered to read the 2nd post, you'd see that's already been mentioned.
I bought one yesterday, & he broke it already, he's going through a very destructive stage.


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Was there really any need for this comment?
> It was a bit nasty, I am a first time dog owner, I don't have the wealth of experience/training that you obviously have.
> I am not pitying myself, I'm worried for Leo's health & safety.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

One of mine went through a stone eating phase as a puppy, she eventually grew out of it but in the mean time I leashed her around stones and didn't let her put her head down to eat them. When she looked as though she was interested in them, I would redirect her to playing with a toy instead of a squeaky ball. 

Not worth the risk of obstruction by being lax, IMO. Hope you get it sorted!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rachelb74 said:


> I bought [a muzzle] yesterday, & he *broke it* already...


How could he *break it* within 24-hours, when U are supposed to be introducing it as a Happy Thing?
:blink: That's not possible - unless he simply swung his head into a cement-block wall, & it broke,
on the spot.

It takes *approximately a week* - 7 to 10-days, on average - to introduce & minimally habituate 
a box-muzzle, so that the dog can happily wear it for short periods: 5 to maybe 15-minutes, at most, 
during walks & other interactive times; not solo, & NEVER not monitored, that early-on.

So how did he "destroy" it, when he's barely gotten the idea of shoving his head into the basket?...
In less that 24-hours?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally posted by *leashedForLife*
> 
> I hate to interrupt the pity-party, U were really getting on a roll - *but can Leo be solo for 10-mins
> without fussing, or trying to escape? Will he settle peaceably to gnaw a safe chewie, if U watch
> telly or read?*





Rachelb74 said:


> Was there really any need for this comment?
> It was a bit nasty, I am a first time dog owner, I don't have the wealth of experience/training that you obviously have.
> 
> I am not pitying myself, I'm worried for Leo's health & safety.


I notice that U have "no intention of crating him", despite the undeniable fact that he's destructive
when he's at large, AND he's not just chewing, he's swallowing bits of what he chews.

How long can U afford to repair or replace the items he destroys? Or will U give him up, because 
"It's impossible to live with a destructive dog"...?

I also notice U haven't answered *any of my Qs - which were designed to tease-out
whether Leo is a clingy velcro-dog, or merely has a single chewing / swallowing issue.*
Without that information, no one can give U anything but vague maybe-this, maybe-that suggestions.

So i'll unsubscribe, & wish U & the dog good-luck. Cheers, 
- terry


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

Dober said:


> One of mine went through a stone eating phase as a puppy, she eventually grew out of it but in the mean time I leashed her around stones and didn't let her put her head down to eat them. When she looked as though she was interested in them, I would redirect her to playing with a toy instead of a squeaky ball.
> 
> Not worth the risk of obstruction by being lax, IMO. Hope you get it sorted!


Thank you for your advice, it's much appreciated.


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> I notice that U have "no intention of crating him", despite the undeniable fact that he's destructive
> when he's at large, AND he's not just chewing, he's swallowing bits of what he chews.
> 
> How long can U afford to repair or replace the items he destroys? Or will U give him up, because
> ...


I didn't get a chance to answer your questions yesterday unfortunately.
I think Leo is probably what you describe as a Velcro dog?
He does tend to follow me from room to room.
The crate issue is purely because he has the utility room where his bed is, it's completely Leo proofed, & that is his time out area.
So I don't feel the need to introduce a crate.
I have however started putting him on a lead when he goes outside now, it's very restrictive & he seems confused by it, but I'm hoping to improve the situation over a period of time.
I am waiting to hear back from the behaviourist I mentioned.
If you are interested in who it is his details are as follows- 
If you google Steven Havers, his website will come up. 
I'd be interested to know what you thought.
It's been a tough week & my nerves have been frayed a little, but I do appreciate the advice I've been given on here.
It's quite difficult to advise on one particular dog without knowing everything about him I suppose.
I do believe that extra mental & physical stimulation would benefit Leo, hence 
my idea of starting agility in the new year.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

If you want to use a muzzle on Leo, you will need to slowly introduce him to it, with treats etc. so that he is not upset by it. This will take a bit of time, and if you can get him to accept it without fuss, he will then be unlikely to want to remove it, if that's how it was broken the first time. It's obviously a pretty strange thing for a dog to suddenly have on, so a slow and steady introduction to it is paramount - with lots of praise and treats so that he learns to accept it as a good thing. 

Whatever you decide to do, keep positive and I'm sure things will slowly improve.

It's a good idea too to train Leo to be a bit more independent so that he can settle without you. It's hard, I know, but you will be doing him a big favour  Dogs that are so reliant on their owners are often the ones that howl and cry for hours when left in the house alone. Very upsetting for all. An independent dog is a happy dog 

You will need a thick skin to survive on this forum - so brace yourself - but most people are pretty fair and there are lots of very knowledgeable dog owners on here 

Good luck


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## Rachelb74 (Dec 6, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> If you want to use a muzzle on Leo, you will need to slowly introduce him to it, with treats etc. so that he is not upset by it. This will take a bit of time, and if you can get him to accept it without fuss, he will then be unlikely to want to remove it, if that's how it was broken the first time. It's obviously a pretty strange thing for a dog to suddenly have on, so a slow and steady introduction to it is paramount - with lots of praise and treats so that he learns to accept it as a good thing.
> 
> Whatever you decide to do, keep positive and I'm sure things will slowly improve.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response to my posts.
I think I was a little too over zealous with the muzzle!
I think because he happily let me put it on him, I got too over confident I suppose, & then as I was watching him mooch around he must have got his teeth into the plastic & just bit right through it!
I understand that if I'm to try again it must be a lot slower over a period of time.
I would like to do without it if possible, but I'll see how we go with the 'being on lead' while outside for now.

I think because Leo has had my undivided attention since having him as a pup,
I have allowed some things to go unchecked, as I wanted to create a strong bond between us.
I thought I'd end up turning him into a 'Robot' dog if I tried to hard & over trained him.
I want him to keep his lovely bubbly personality.
Also I know I've given him too much attention since the children left home earlier this year.
In my defense, I have always left him for at least a couple of hours a day, for his own good.
He seems happy enough to be in the utility room while I'm out.
No complaints from neighbours either, so I'm 99% sure he's quiet.
He's been perfect at night time ever since he was a pup, & has always slept through the night on his own no problem.

But when I'm pottering round home he will generally follow me about, because he's very nosy, & very food orientated, so he thinks he's missing something.
Saying that, we have a gate at the kitchen door, so if he won't settle in the lounge with us, I do put him in the kitchen on his own to settle, which he does after a few moans!

My husband & I are very committed to Leo, & know these things take time.
He is a young dog after all & may naturally grow out of his destructive & possible self harming behaviour.

We would never consider giving up Leo, ever.
He is a very happy, loved member of our family, & time & patience will no doubt improve his bad habits.

Thank you again for your advice


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rachelb74 said:


> If you google Steven Havers, his website will come up.


Presumably he's not an APDT-uk member; the organization logo is not on his site, or at least,
i couldn't find it. That means aversive tools & coercive methods are not ruled-out, as possible 
or probable options.

if this is his concept of behavioral-evaluation & subsequent B-Mod for a dog with a multiple-bite history
to family-members & well-known carers [kennel staff], i'm underwhelmed:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Dealing-With-Our-Dogs&id=6632441

Also confused. :blink: I can find *zero* information on what tools he uses, or what techniques.
Every article is vague & amorphous; every review mentions nothing specific.

A few excerpts from his customer reviews:


> _[We knew] the dogs regarded themselves as superior to us, we didnt realise by how much!
> They are now, slowly but surely, losing control of us, & recognising their position in the 'pack'."_





> _"I can now hoover without any barking or biting at the cord from Stanley.
> He now leaves trainers
> & [other] shoes at the door, & no longer runs with them around the house looking for attention.
> 
> ...


Please note that every one of those is "Not Doing" something: the dog doesn't go to his bed
when the hoover comes out, he doesn't find a particular spot on the porch while the grass is mown,
he doesn't PARK himself while the patio is brushed - in fact, he still barks at it, he just doesn't pick it up
& cart it around, or pull it from the sweeper's hands.

U can't really train the *absence of behavior; if U suppress one, another must fill the vacuum.*
That's why training an incompatible behavior is such a good choice: something we want, replaces
the behavior we didn't want, & the dog is not left to their own devices to choose "something else",
unspecified.


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