# Caucasian shepherd



## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Hello everyone. I know there are a couple of owners out there. I can't go into too much detail just yet, but we are possibly having a 6 month old Caucasian shepherd being brought into us (I work at s rehoming centre) for being too much for the other dogs in the home (stealing food etc). Can anyone advice on good, bad and ugly points on the breed. I know they're a pretty hardcore guarding shepherd, so any info greatly appreciated! If we have to rehome him, I want to be looking for the right set up for him.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

CockersIndie said:


> Hello everyone. I know there are a couple of owners out there. I can't go into too much detail just yet, but we are possibly having a 6 month old Caucasian shepherd being brought into us (I work at s rehoming centre) for being too much for the other dogs in the home (stealing food etc). Can anyone advice on good, bad and ugly points on the breed. I know they're a pretty hardcore guarding shepherd, so any info greatly appreciated! If we have to rehome him, I want to be looking for the right set up for him.


There is a Caucasian Ovcharka UK Facebook page. If you have a look through that there is a lot of documents on the breed and breed information that you can link too that may be a lot of help.

https://www.facebook.com/CaucasianOvcharkaUk


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I would definitely recommend a rural home with large guardian breed experience. They're not for the faint hearted and don't always cope well at all in urban places.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> There is a Caucasian Ovcharka UK Facebook page. If you have a look through that there is a lot of documents on the breed and breed information that you can link too that may be a lot of help.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/CaucasianOvcharkaUk


i won't go into too much detail but the above page probably isnt the best place to go regarding the breed:001_unsure:


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Tyton just recently got a pup I believe they may be the best bet. Try to Pm them


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Buyers should always beware of these dogs. I doubt some breeders/previous owners would want you to know the real truth behind some of these animals. 

I've affectionately termed them as 'Lucky Bag' dogs because you just don't know what's inside of them.

A specimen at six months if not socialised correctly will already have begun to challenge its owner and any other thing that might have gotten in its face.

whatever its present temperament it's going to be fun. :thumbup:


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Top secret but he arrived. He's a sweet thing at the moment alert but calm. Apparently just Incompatible with dogs in the home but has been well socialised with others outside too. Friendly with everyone but I am very aware he's going to be tricky. I'll make sure everyone is made aware and I shall get together a few bits of info from that page to present to everyone and new owners. He is absolutely stunning, 36kg already. Thanks all


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I can put a shout out about him on some LGD facebook groups I'm on if you like? I know of one caucasian shepherd owner in Bradford who may have suitable friends. He's a decent owner with 4 LGDs


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I can put a shout out about him on some LGD facebook groups I'm on if you like? I know of one caucasian shepherd owner in Bradford who may have suitable friends. He's a decent owner with 4 LGDs


Hold fire on that, he needs to be assessed yet. I'd be surprised if they'd recommend he lives with a dog, it's possible. Thanks though, I'll bear in mind once he's available!


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## Tyton (Mar 9, 2013)

GingerRogers said:


> Tyton just recently got a pup I believe they may be the best bet. Try to Pm them


Umm....my experience is about 10 days worth 
Sweet, alert but calm pretty much sums up our wee fellow too. At only 10 weeks old he's pretty fearless, alarm barks at odd noises/wind etc, but won't back away. If one of our big lads barks outside, Ronin will run out to back him up. He went with the others to the dog training Xmas party on Tuesday, 10-15 dogs of varying sizes and ages, all of them were met calmly and confidently. If he's unsure, he stops and sits, weighing up the situation.

Our three will take a toy off him, but only by being 10 times his size, and he'll jump straight back into get it back. He's just spent 20 min wrestling and jostling with our biggest newfie (supervised of course and Tyton has great control with the pups, but does get rescued if he's had enough) he doesn't seem cowed by anything, but other than a few growls when he's about to get squashed in a pack zoomie, he hasn't showed any aggression. He's calm but friendly with people also, sits quite docilely to be fussed/petted but not bouncy or rushing up to folks.

I am aware he's still a very young pup, but we are treating him similarly to our newfies, firm boundaries but plenty calm kindness and socialisation. He is a definite wee character already (which is why we got him at 8 weeks rather than imported at 5 months), and I can see how resident dogs may struggle with a Caucasian if they aren't as big as our three, or the owners don't keep a firm control of the situation from the very beginning!

I don't know what advice to give other than being consistent, firm and calm with him, and NOT recommending him to first time dog owners as a giant teddybear, just cos he looks like one


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Tyton said:


> Umm....my experience is about 10 days worth
> Sweet, alert but calm pretty much sums up our wee fellow too. At only 10 weeks old he's pretty fearless, alarm barks at odd noises/wind etc, but won't back away. If one of our big lads barks outside, Ronin will run out to back him up. He went with the others to the dog training Xmas party on Tuesday, 10-15 dogs of varying sizes and ages, all of them were met calmly and confidently. If he's unsure, he stops and sits, weighing up the situation.
> 
> Our three will take a toy off him, but only by being 10 times his size, and he'll jump straight back into get it back. He's just spent 20 min wrestling and jostling with our biggest newfie (supervised of course and Tyton has great control with the pups, but does get rescued if he's had enough) he doesn't seem cowed by anything, but other than a few growls when he's about to get squashed in a pack zoomie, he hasn't showed any aggression. He's calm but friendly with people also, sits quite docilely to be fussed/petted but not bouncy or rushing up to folks.
> ...


Lol I meant as knowing a bit more about them in general


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Tyton said:


> I don't know what advice to give other than being consistent, firm and calm with him, and NOT recommending him to first time dog owners as a giant teddybear, just cos he looks like one


I don't even want to have to advertise him! we'll get a lot of unsuitable homes through because he is absolutely stunning. Through a normal assessment he'd be quite straight forward right now. I just want to make sure all the staff know what he is and what he could be without the right home!


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## Tyton (Mar 9, 2013)

It's such a balancing act isn't it? I am convinced that Caucasians can be gorgeous loyal wonderful companions, but also out of control disasters in the wrong hands. 

Hopefully this rescue boy's problem has been that the multidog household he has been in was just the wrong environment for him, I really hope that after a period to settle down with you and be assessed, the right home can be found for him to flourish in safety.

PS OH said, he reckons Caucasians seem similar in temprament to Tibetan Mastiffs if anyone at the rescue has experience of them?


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Buyers should always beware of these dogs. I doubt some breeders/previous owners would want you to know the real truth behind some of these animals.
> 
> *I've affectionately termed them as 'Lucky Bag' dogs because you just don't know what's inside of them.*
> 
> ...


Exactly the bolded. 
Many of these "breeds" have very little uniformity of temperament, so you really don't know what you're going to end up with.

They also tend to be very slow to mature. A 6 month old is still very much a puppy with a puppy temperament, hell a 12 month old is still a puppy in terms of temperament. The dog you have at 12 and even 18 months will be very different than the dog you end up with at 3 years.

Many owners get lulled in to a false sense of security when their 18 month old seems okay with visitors, other dogs, people walking up to you on walks... Then the Caucasian matures in to their full guardian temperament and all of a sudden the owner finds themselves not being able to let visitors in to the home or go for normal walks.

IMO they are very much a specialist breed, not one that I would rehome, unless there was someone *very* experienced willing to take him on.

Just to give you an idea, I know a very experienced breeder (CAS), knowledgeable, experienced dog trainer as well, who collected an Ovcharka who was turned in to rescue. She got the dog home, and he stayed in her truck for 3 days. That's how long it took her to earn his trust enough to get close enough to safely get him out.

They are not a breed for the faint of heart....


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Exactly the bolded.
> Many of these "breeds" have very little uniformity of temperament, so you really don't know what you're going to end up with.
> 
> They also tend to be very slow to mature. A 6 month old is still very much a puppy with a puppy temperament, hell a 12 month old is still a puppy in terms of temperament. The dog you have at 12 and even 18 months will be very different than the dog you end up with at 3 years.
> ...


Thank you for that. Confirms my thoughts which I can pass on. I'll be involved in some part of finding him a home once he's assessed and available.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Nagini said:


> i won't go into too much detail but the above page probably isnt the best place to go regarding the breed:001_unsure:


Admittedly I didn't read the documents just saw there seemed to be a lot of links to info, obviously maybe not then. There seems a lack of good websites in general though.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Admittedly I didn't read the documents just saw there seemed to be a lot of links to info, obviously maybe not then. There seems a lack of good websites in general though.


i don't want to say too much as all seems to have gone quiet on that front , the owner of the page was a member here though 

alexart has a caucasian , if memory serves me correctly her pup is probably about 3 years old now ? so it may be worth getting in contact with her  but i'll think you'll find she'll be pretty much of the mind they aren't ''pet'' dogs 

http://www.petforums.co.uk/members/alexart.html


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Nagini said:


> i don't want to say too much as all seems to have gone quiet on that front , the owner of the page was a member here though
> 
> alexart has a caucasian , if memory serves me correctly her pup is probably about 3 years old now ? so it may be worth getting in contact with her  but i'll think you'll find she'll be pretty much of the mind they aren't ''pet'' dogs
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/members/alexart.html


Ohh I see if memory serves me correct Im with you now and if it has I see what you mean


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

I find this breed fascinating (along with other LGDs) but do wonder how many homes in the UK are actually suitable for such a dog.

Good luck in finding this pup the right home. Do we get to see a photo?


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2014)

Moobli said:


> I find this breed fascinating (along with other LGDs) but do wonder *how many homes in the UK are actually suitable for such a dog*.
> 
> Good luck in finding this pup the right home. Do we get to see a photo?


Thats what I would wonder too?
All the Ovcharka types I know work. As in they live outside with a flock (sheep, goats, cattle, horses) that they actively protect from real predators, like coyote, wolves, bears, mountain lions... 
Without a flock to guard, many will turn their family in to the flock and any outsider (animal or human) in to a predator. It would be an understatement to say that can become a really big problem.

And thats the essence of this breed that makes them so different from what most people are used to in a dog. They are a breed meant to work and think completely independently. They live with the flock and with no human direction have to decide what is a threat and how to handle it. They are bred to not back down from a threat, and if needed, eliminate that threat. That strong courage/boldness coupled with an equally strong independence makes them really unsuited for what most people want/expect in a pet dog.

Theyre not a dog you put in a bungalow with a small garden and take for walks to the local park. Thats just not going to work with this breed.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I wonder why the breeder could not take the dog back? I can't imagine there being many breeders of them in this country full stop.


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

labradrk said:


> I wonder why the breeder could not take the dog back? I can't imagine there being many breeders of them in this country full stop.


The caucasian ovcharka facebook page seems to suggest that not many breeders in the UK are particularly brilliant.... And perhaps if the issues in the home were worse than have actually been explained to us, the breeder may not have the facilities to take him back.

and i will post photos once he is available. It's possible we'll look for a more specialist rescue to take him.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

CockersIndie said:


> The caucasian ovcharka facebook page seems to suggest that not many breeders in the UK are particularly brilliant.... And perhaps if the issues in the home were worse than have actually been explained to us, the breeder may not have the facilities to take him back.


 The breeder *should* take the dog back irrespective of if they have the facilities, if they don't have them, then they shouldn't be breeding in the first place imho.. Have the rescue approached the breeder? This is their problem NOT a problem a rescue should be picking up, more so a rescue with no experience of the breed or what type of home the breed requires..


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> The breeder *should* take the dog back irrespective of if they have the facilities, if they don't have them, then they shouldn't be breeding in the first place imho.. Have the rescue approached the breeder? This is their problem NOT a problem a rescue should be picking up, more so a rescue with no experience of the breed or what type of home the breed requires..


In principle I agree, Meezey, but if the breeders are as about as much use as a chocolate teapot, then it's probably pointless making them take the dog back. They probably couldn't care less and will try to dump the poor dog into another hellish and unsuitable home.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Siskin said:


> In principle I agree, Meezey, but if the breeders are as about as much use as a chocolate teapot, then it's probably pointless making them take the dog back. They probably couldn't care less and will try to dump the poor dog into another hellish and unsuitable home.


I understand that also, but in the same respect it concerns me a rescue taking a breed they have no understanding of nor understanding the right home it should be in, that could also end in disaster for the dog.. Is there no way a responsible breeder can be found with experience of the breed who maybe willing to take a pup in and find the right home?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

CockersIndie said:


> The caucasian ovcharka facebook page seems to suggest that not many breeders in the UK are particularly brilliant.... And perhaps if the issues in the home were worse than have actually been explained to us, the breeder may not have the facilities to take him back.
> 
> and i will post photos once he is available. It's possible we'll look for a more specialist rescue to take him.


I agree if its not a particularly good responsible breeder, and you should be able to find out who it was if the current owners have paper work, then after some checking they are not good then the dog is better off not going back to them.

I would think its better in that case, that if you can find some reliable help and info as regards what they are like and what they need, or maybe better still some assistance from someone very knowledgeable and helpful to assist in rehoming who knows the breed then that's likely his and yours best bet. Although even then it would need to be someone experienced with similar or more specialist breeds and who has the knowledge to train them correctly.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

CockersIndie said:


> The caucasian ovcharka facebook page seems to suggest that not many breeders in the UK are particularly brilliant.... And perhaps if the issues in the home were worse than have actually been explained to us, the breeder may not have the facilities to take him back.
> 
> and i will post photos once he is available. It's possible we'll look for a more specialist rescue to take him.


i wouldn't take too much notice of that page tbh!! i really don't want to go into it here cos it was done to the death when they were previously a member here , all i am willing to say is..if you have the paperwork , contact the breeder because previous member seemed to think the dogs were just exclusive to them so bad mouthed every breeder they possibly could wherever possible
i'm not saying bad breeders don't exist cos they do , but you may just be pleasantly surprised 
is it possible the breeder isn't aware a pup they bred has landed in rescue , as not all owners contact the people who bred their dog before approaching rescue.


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

I came on here to confirm my suspicions of the breed already, and i can assure you this dog will not be rehomed lightly, nor irresponsibly. I am very aware of how difficult these dogs can be. 

and of course i'd rather he go back to his breeder if that was an option but I don't believe there are any breeders papers nor contact details. Equally, it is slightly harsh to say we don't know what kind of home he will need. I really only started the thread to confirm my own thoughts. Im not sure many people or rescues in the country have come across this breed.

Im off work today, but will look into this and see if his breeder was contacted before bringing him to us.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

CockersIndie said:


> I came on here to confirm my suspicions of the breed already, and i can assure you this dog will not be rehomed lightly, nor irresponsibly. I am very aware of how difficult these dogs can be.
> 
> and of course i'd rather he go back to his breeder if that was an option but I don't believe there are any breeders papers nor contact details. Equally, it is slightly harsh to say we don't know what kind of home he will need. I really only started the thread to confirm my own thoughts. Im not sure many people or rescues in the country have come across this breed.
> 
> Im off work today, but will look into this and see if his breeder was contacted before bringing him to us.


I don't think it is harsh, I'm sorry if think it is. Given the fact the dog is in rescue shows that they aren't an easy breed to put in the right home, and even if everyone tells you on the forum still doesn't mean the rescue will know the right home, I'm not trying to be harsh, there is a reason there are breed specific rescues and a reason a lot of general rescues prefer the breeds to go to them.

If you can't find the breeder it might be worth talking to other breeders out there to enlist their help with him and getting him the right home, maybe ask Tyson to ask her breeder is she knows of anyone who's had a litter around the time, and even ask them if they can help you select the right home and assess him, or know of another breeder who is involved in rescue re-homing of the breed. What maybe consider aggressive to someone who doesn't know a breed might be considered normal to someone who knows the breed. Not being harsh being concerned about the dog.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

CockersIndie said:


> *
> and of course i'd rather he go back to his breeder if that was an option but I don't believe there are any breeders papers nor contact details.*


in this case couldn't the previous owner be approached to find out where and who the pup was obtained from. there aren't many breeders in the uk i believe of these dogs so i wouldn't imagine it would be very difficult to track where he came from. (as far as i'm aware the facebook page owner hasn't bred a litter  even though they ran many ads few years back saying they did [threads are on here somewhere btw] so it would be pointless contacting them).


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Trouble is, Pets4Homes has over a page of Caucasian puppies - including one crossed with a Presa!

If he came from on there I wouldn't think it's likely that the breeder would take him back.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Gemmaa said:


> Trouble is, Pets4Homes has over a page of Caucasian puppies - *including one crossed with a Presa!*


A mad scientist's dog!

It has only just recently come to our attention that another such like has crossed the Sar', a close relative of the C/O, with an American Pitbull.:

Unstable people seem to favour unstable dogs and if they can't buy one they'll bloody well make one! :sad:


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Gemmaa said:


> Trouble is, Pets4Homes has over a page of Caucasian puppies - including one crossed with a Presa!
> 
> If he came from on there I wouldn't think it's likely that the breeder would take him back.


pets4homes is a minefield i agree , although that is a bit of sweeping statement , the breeder of my akita did advertise their litter on there although i found their details on champdogs  so it does go to show good breeders do advertise on there its a pity just so few of them.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Gemmaa said:


> Trouble is, Pets4Homes has over a page of Caucasian puppies - including one crossed with a Presa!
> 
> If he came from on there I wouldn't think it's likely that the breeder would take him back.


That is rather scary!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CockersIndie said:


> ...
> I can't go into too much detail... we're possibly [receiving] a 6-MO Caucasian shepherd ... I work at a rehoming centre -
> [he was] "too much for the other dogs in the home" - stole their food, etc. Can anyone advise re good, bad & ugly points of the breed?
> 
> ...


i don't call them 'shepherds', as too many folks confuse them with herding breeds, & they're a far cry from
BCs, Aussies, Collies, etc; they're not MaliGators, but they're more mastiff / guardian, not stock-movers.


Phoolf said:


> I'd definitely recommend a rural home with 'large guardian-breed' experience.
> They're not for the faint hearted & don't always cope well at all in urban places.


:thumbup: Rep for U!


CockersIndie said:


> ...he arrived. He's a sweet thing ATM, alert but calm. Apparently just incompatible with [other] dogs in
> [his former] home but was well-socialised with other [dogs?] outside [the family], too.
> 
> Friendly with everyone, but I'm very aware he's going to be tricky. I'll make sure everyone is made aware
> ...


Yup - good-looking dogs will inevitably attract plenty of attn from totally unsuitable families, sadly.


Tyton said:


> Umm....my experience is about 10 days' worth
> 
> Sweet, alert but calm, pretty much sums-up our wee fellow, too. At only 10-WO, he's pretty fearless; alarm barks
> at odd noises/ wind, etc, but won't back away. If [a] big lad barks outside, Ronin runs out to back him up.
> ...


Sounds like a promising start, & a good pup - :thumbup:
just a quick suggestion, i'd be sure to *praise & reward* for PAUSING to weigh things
when he's unsure, & don't hustle him - many owners get impatient, they want the pup or dog to get over it,
& *move*! -which cuts short their time to consider, & gets them into the situation before they're
ready to engage / sure they want to get closer.


Tyton said:


> He's calm but friendly with people, also; *sits quite docilely to be fussed/ petted, but not bouncy or rushing up
> to folks.*
> 
> I'm aware he's still a very young pup, but we're treating him similarly to our Newfies, firm boundaries but plenty
> ...


CLICK! - :thumbup: rep for U! :001_smile:

Excellent note re the 'teddy' impression, which is also true of Akitas, etc.
Also, *tolerating* petting or contact from non-family isn't the same as enjoying it - watch to see that he's
not just resigned, but is content, & happy to be touched.


CockersIndie said:


> I don't even want to have to advertise him!
> We'll get a lot of unsuitable homes through, because he's absolutely stunning.
> 
> [Assessed now], he'd [seem] quite straightforward... I just want to make sure all the staff know what he is
> & what he could be, without the right home!


good on ya! :thumbup:
A home with Rott or other guarding breed experience, or who have previously lived with Pyrs,
might be a possibility, but Pyrs are among the most-mild versions of LGDs. An Anatolian makes a Pyr look
like an oversized Cocker Spaniel. :huh:


Tyton said:


> It's such a balancing act, isn't it?
> I'm convinced that Caucasians can be gorgeous loyal wonderful companions, but also out of control disasters
> in the wrong hands.
> 
> ...


Yes, i'd say COs & TibMastiffs have many similar personality traits.


ouesi said:


> ...
> Many of these "breeds" have very little uniformity of temperament, so you really don't know what you're going to end up with.
> 
> They also tend to be very slow to mature. A 6 month old is still very much a puppy with a puppy temperament, hell a 12 month old is still a puppy in terms of temperament. The dog you have at 12 and even 18 months will be very different than the dog you end up with at 3 years.
> ...


CLICK! - definitely agree on the need for someone who will be consistent, firm, cautious about new settings
& new persons, but they will have to go above & beyond 'normal' socialization as done for any pet breed -
& frankly, most pet-owners very consistently short-shrift their pups, of whatever breed, without any
remorse or worry at all. HOW * MANY puppy-buyers actually DO introduce their puppy to a minimum of 25
very-different persons, every week, from age 56-days to 3-MO?... Dam* few, IME.


CockersIndie said:


> Thank you for that. Confirms my thoughts, which I can pass on. I'll be involved in some part of finding him
> a home, once he's assessed and available.


good! :thumbup:


Nagini said:


> ...
> 
> AlexArt has a CO; if memory serves me correctly, her pup's about 3-YO now ? so it may be worth getting in
> contact with her.  But i'll think you'll find she's pretty much of the mind they aren't ''pet'' dogs.


yes; they're better in rural or large-estate settings, where they don't have to be cheek-by-jowl with strangers
passing the house might & day, noises off, package deliveries to neighbors, kids playing, etc.


Moobli said:


> I find this breed fascinating, along with other LGDs, but do wonder how many homes in the UK are actually suitable
> for such a dog.
> 
> Good luck in finding this pup the right home. Do we get to see a photo?





ouesi said:


> Thats what I would wonder too?
> All the Ovcharka types I know work. As in they live outside with a flock (sheep, goats, cattle, horses) that they actively protect from real predators, like coyote, wolves, bears, mountain lions...
> Without a flock to guard, many will turn their family in to the flock and any outsider (animal or human) in to a predator. It would be an understatement to say that can become a really big problem.
> 
> ...





Gemmaa said:


> Trouble is, Pets4Homes has over a page of Caucasian puppies - including one crossed with a Presa!
> 
> If he came from [an ad] there, I wouldn't think it's likely the breeder would take him back.


Lots of valuable & straightforward info, here.

I'd add that there's a suite of behaviors that are part of the package with all LGDs, & many of them, in fact
if truth is told, most if not *all* of them are problematic in pet-homes:
- once close to or past puberty, unless the pup has been heavily & widely socialized, they are suspicious
of all non-family strangers, & if they feel the person is a threat, they MAY bite; they don't bark an alert,
necessarily, unless the 'intruder' is on the other side of a barrier & not a present threat, but only potential.

Like other guarding breeds, Bullmastiff, Akita, etc, they don't yell for help; they act.

*intensive & extensive socialization into & thru the pup's SECOND YEAR is highly recommended, with as many
dissimilar samples as possible - * young, old, in-between, able & variously disabled, tall or short, skinny tall
folks resembling storks, short round folks who waddle, every DIET possible as body-odor is strongly affected
by what we eat, every language & manner of speech [rapid fire, loud, happy shouts, mumbles, what have U],
all SKIN colors, with or without glasses / hats / canes / walkers / dangly clothes that beg to be grabbed /
drapey clothes that snap in the breeze / masks / goggles / mirror sunglasses, etc, etc, etc.

- Nocturnal patrols & nighttime barking at sounds off are 'normal'.
Crate-training early & thoroughly highly recommended, & sleeping crated is a good precaution, with setback
from streets, passing footpaths, etc, that are adjacent.

- Anything they can SEE from within the house or any fenced areas, is by default THEIRS.
A sidewalk under a lounge window that overlooks the street, will become a major trigger for barking.
Anything that limits visibility is good - frosted lower windows [self-stick panels] are excellent, even on
such places as glass entry-doors or sliders that exit onto patios or balconies.
Solid privacy-fences are heartily recommended, rather than see-thru types.

- Visitors may be ignored by well-trained, well-socialized adults - UNTIL they move, i-e, cross or uncross legs,
stand up to leave / go to the loo / get a drink, etc; even sneezing or coughing can trigger a barking display.

Moving solo or encountering the dog AWAY from the owners, elsewhere in the house, may trigger guarding -
physically pinning the visitor, bark-&-hold in a corner, blocking doorways, etc. This may be fairly low-key
or really frightening; standing broadside in a doorway & growling when U get too close can scare the H*** outta
someone, & a hard stare with a slightly-lifted lip & rumbling growl is very intimidating.
So it's a good idea for owners to keep the dog in sight when non-family are in the house, at all times.

AT * NIGHT it's a good precaution to keep the LGD in the owner's bedroom, if there are any non-family guests
in the home; U don't want the dog in a growling stand-off with the sleepover friend from school at 2-AM, when
all the kid did was get out of bed, & head to the toilet. 
.
.


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Thanks leashedforlife. I feel heavily responsible for the boy now, and I will do my very best to get him the right home for him. Rural is going to have to be a must have, as well as plenty of experience with large guardian breeds such as thiose you've mentioned.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Best of luck CokersIndie It can`t be easy to be given the task of finding the right home for such a specialist type of dog, hope all goes well for his future.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Anything they can SEE from within the house or any fenced areas, is by default THEIRS.
> A sidewalk under a lounge window that overlooks the street, will become a major trigger for barking.
> *Anything that limits visibility is good* - frosted lower windows [self-stick panels] are excellent, even on
> such places as glass entry-doors or sliders that exit onto patios or balconies.
> Solid privacy-fences are heartily recommended, rather than see-thru types.


Yep! That's one way to frustrate and stress the animal.....Blindfold it. There is another way of course but it involves a stick and poking.

These dogs are naturally inquisitive. They're more curious than a hyperactive toddler and have an irresistible need to investigate anything and everything to be able understand how it relates to them. 
Friend or Foe? 
Deliberately or purposely restricting their vision limits their understanding of the world. 
Every day is a school day. Restrict learning and you restrict knowledge.

These dogs do not belong in suburbia and I have relayed this message many times over yet here you paint a very clear picture of apartment life.

Keeping these dogs in a city or town is cruel. There's far to much unrest for them. They require a fairly balanced and tranquil environment for both their physical and mental well being. 
They must also have space enough for them to be able to wander off and be by themselves whenever the mood takes them.

Personally I wouldn't relay on a window to act as a suitable safety barrier between the dog and the outside world. They have been known to_ 'break glass to exit' _if they considered it necessary.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Yep! That's one way to frustrate and stress the animal.....Blindfold it. There is another way of course but it involves a stick and poking.
> 
> These dogs are naturally inquisitive. They're more curious than a hyperactive toddler and have an irresistible need to investigate anything and everything to be able understand how it relates to them.
> Friend or Foe?
> ...


Really interesting to learn more about this breed and what makes them tick.

If we didn't have "right to roam" laws here in Scotland, some Estates and farmers/shepherds up here could possibly offer the most suitable homes in the UK to this breed from what I am learning about them. Sadly, as this won't happen I am failing to see a positive future for this breed over here. I also can't understand the thinking behind planning to own this breed in circumstances other than those that you have described Zaros.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Moobli said:


> Really interesting to learn more about this breed and what makes them tick.
> 
> If we didn't have "right to roam" laws here in Scotland, some Estates and farmers/shepherds up here could possibly offer the most suitable homes in the UK to this breed from what I am learning about them. *Sadly, as this won't happen I am failing to see a positive future for this breed over here. I also can't understand the thinking behind planning to own this breed in circumstances other than those that you have described Zaros.*


I agree. Just seen the pages of them on Pets4Home and I'm shocked - one ad describes them as "the perfect pet". I had no idea that backyard breeders had already got their hands on them.

There is also a litter of Caucasian's crossed with a working line Malinois advertised as "very good family pets".

As you say, I doubt there are many homes in this country that are suitable for such a dog. Very few own a property that would give one of these dogs adequate space to practice what they have been bred for.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Moobli said:


> Really interesting to learn more about this breed and what makes them tick.
> 
> If we didn't have "right to roam" laws here in Scotland, some Estates and farmers/shepherds up here could possibly offer the most suitable homes in the UK to this breed from what I am learning about them. Sadly, as this won't happen I am failing to see a positive future for this breed over here. I also can't understand the thinking behind planning to own this breed in circumstances other than those that you have described Zaros.


We have discussed many times a move to England, Scotland to be precise, because we actually considered areas of the country prime location for homing dogs of this nature. But as you say, Law dictates restrictions.

Again the crucial factors are, if you can't provide the animal with the correct conditions and environment, you shouldn't be be taking the dog on.

Of course we must not over look or attempt to ignore the immediate dangers attached to living in the city with such an animal.
Any fool or would be burglar forcibly entering your home would be at serious risk of harm and injury.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Yep! That's one way to frustrate and stress the animal.....Blindfold it. There is another way of course but it involves a stick and poking.
> 
> These dogs are naturally inquisitive. They're more curious than a hyperactive toddler and have an irresistible need to investigate anything and everything to be able understand how it relates to them.
> Friend or Foe?
> ...


Very good points.

When you watch these dogs working how they were bred to, you see them wandering about all day and night - especially at night, constantly on the prowl, checking out every little thing, always on alert, and when they do see a threat, they will take whatever means necessary to eliminate that threat.

And again, all of this is meant to be done without human direction or support. What most people think of as a protection dog is a dog who is being directed and supported by a handler. These dogs dont need that, and that makes a massive difference in how they handle the environment and human handling.

I will add since someone will be out there saying well I have a CO and hes fine living in an apartment or whatever. There is a lot of variability in the temperament of these dogs. Some breeders breed for proper working temperament, others are purposefully watering down the working traits, others breed for a certain look without regard to temperament.

So it is possible to get a mellower version of the guarding instincts. However, I wouldnt count on it, and as has already been said, since they are so slow to mature, a lot of folks get fooled by a dog who is still a baby getting along with everyone and then get a nasty surprise when the dog matures fully and they come home to a torn up house (and dog) because the dog just had to get out and investigate the strange shadow in the back yard or worse.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

There's a member on dogpages forum that took that breed or similar LG in a private rehome & posted about how pups are selected for different roles based on personality & that they bond to their shepherd early on so could be difficult to rehome once older. I will search for it later as was very interesting.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

I specifically DO * NOT recommend 'apartment life' - nor condos, gated communities, or any other
high-density locales. These dogs need *setback* from their neighbors, so a suburban home with an acre
or more of surrounding space, is IMO & IME, a minimum.

However, even there, streets or roads will be audible, walking paths or bike-paths may lie nearby,
sidewalks may run close to the front or side of the house, etc; hence, setback *within the house* from such
visible or audible intrusion, is suggested.

A dog-gate, higher & sturdier than a baby-gate, is also a good idea between the house proper & the front door -
this allows mailniks, delivery folks, & other unplanned arrivals to knock or ring, without the dog having direct
access to the door itself; that lets the owner go thru the gate, answer the door, & leave the dog back 8 or so
feet, to observe the transaction at a distance.

A CO in an apartment is a complete misfit; SOME Pyrs can cope with that level of exposure to noise, passersby,
& sheer stimuli, but they're less-intense individuals, & as a breed, Pyrs have been diluted from their original hard-
headed, hard-nosed guardian type. That's not to say there aren't working Pyrs, there are; there are also
show-lines & pet-lines.

As *yet*! - so far as i've heard - there are no 'pet lines' in Ovcharkas, of any specific geographic origin.
.
.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

When I was young my neighbour kept & bred Pyr's the house had large front & back garden but urban. I imagine they've been bred to suit a more typical uk life over the years than those still working. 
Here's the thread about Livestock guardians its KimH that has the ovcharka (sp?) & posts what they've learnt since taking a pup on.
<Dogpages UK dog rescue forums>


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Good thread 2hound might be useful to OP to contact Steve Mann? He was travelling not sure if he is back?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

2Hounds said:


> When I was young my neighbour kept & bred Pyr's the house had large front & back garden but urban. I imagine they've been bred to suit a more typical uk life over the years than those still working.
> Here's the thread about Livestock guardians its KimH that has the ovcharka (sp?) & posts what they've learnt since taking a pup on.
> <Dogpages UK dog rescue forums>


I remember that whole story unfolding as I was a member of that forum when KimH was getting that pup ( and I was subsequently chased off by some very unpleasant members ) She had countless posts from people telling her what a bad idea it was, but she went ahead anyway....and obviously learnt the hard way. She makes some interesting points, but loses me when she keeps going on about 'pack' mentality and her dubious training methods of 'ragging' and forcing the dog to face what it's reacting to etc.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2014)

2Hounds said:


> When I was young my neighbour kept & bred Pyr's the house had large front & back garden but urban. I imagine they've been bred to suit a more typical uk life over the years than those still working.
> Here's the thread about Livestock guardians its KimH that has the ovcharka (sp?) & posts what they've learnt since taking a pup on.
> <Dogpages UK dog rescue forums>


skimmed through the linked thread, and um.... Not quite sure what to say.
ALL dogs are domesticated, not sure what shes going on about with dogs bred in the UK being domesticated and dogs bred abroad not? Very odd. The part about making the dog respect her was a bit odd too.

It doesnt bother me for her to use the term pack as they are very much pack dogs in that they often work cooperatively and as such will have different roles within the pack. For example in large livestock operations, you may need many LGDs to work the whole area. One dogs main role will be to alert, while another may be the main aggressor against intruders, and others may be the ones to stay closer to the flock as many predators are smart enough to get the guardians to chase them off, while another predator will go back to the now unguarded flock. A good team of LGDs know how to work together and avoid that particular trap.

Another thing I really want to emphasize is that other than they are both LGDs, there are very little similarities between a great Pyr and an ovcharka. Thats like comparing a sheltie to a malinois. Ovcharkas are hard core and they have never been bred as pets. Pyrs have been bred as companions for nearly 100 years now.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2014)

CockersIndie, for some very good info on LGDs in general check out Predator Friendly Ranching. Its a blog by a rancher in Canada, very knowledgeable on a lot of LGDs and may even be worth shooting her an email.

This one is about the difference between Sars and Great Pyrs, and the different types of LGDs in general:
Predator Friendly Ranching ...: A slippery slope comparison between a GP and a Sarplaninac

And this one makes some really good points about how to responsibly breed LGDs, how to test for and retain their proper instincts.
Predator Friendly Ranching ...: Instinct, Intelligence and a whole bunch of rambling thoughts


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Another thing I really want to emphasize is that other than they are both LGDs, there are very little similarities between a great Pyr and an ovcharka. Thats like comparing a sheltie to a malinois. Ovcharkas are hard core and they have never been bred as pets. Pyrs have been bred as companions for nearly 100 years now.


This difference between Ovcharkas and great Pyrenians was pointed out also in an Australian study about livestock guardian dogs. It also shows how easily we can destroy a working line quality in a breed, when we don´t respect their natural instincts, but instead start breeding them as suburban pets. The study also emphasizes the big differences between individual dogs, which is so true. I also agree with Ouesi, when she pointed out how late some Ovcharkas develop. I´m familiar with some Sars, which started to guard properly only after reaching 4 years of age, much to the great suprise of their owners.

http://www.invasiveanimals.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Guardian-Dogs-web.pdf

(if the link doesn´t work, just google Australian study livestock guardian, as I did. )


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> ...
> 
> ...other than they are both LGDs, there are very [few] similarities between a Great Pyr and an Ovcharka.
> Thats like comparing a Sheltie to a Malinois. Ovcharkas are hard core and they've never been bred as pets.
> Pyrs have been bred as companions for nearly 100 years now.





MrsZee said:


> This difference between Ovcharkas and Great [Pyrenees] was pointed out also in an Australian study about
> livestock guardian dogs. It also shows how easily we can destroy a working line quality in a breed, when we
> don´t respect their natural instincts, but instead start breeding them as suburban pets. The study also
> emphasizes the big differences between individual dogs, which is so true.
> ...


I did say SOME Pyrs can cope with suburban or urban homes; there are also many who CANNOT deal with
dense living, & become very sensitized to intrusions, interruptions, or noises-off at any time, or from any source.

I don't think Pyrs are pussycats; H***'s bells, not all housecats are pussycats, i've met cats who would very
cheerfully rip the bl**dy bejeezus out of a stranger who *dared* to touch her or him, or sit on THEIR sofa, or touch
THEIR human, etc.

*Nocturnal patrols* & nighttime barking at noises-off are a common complaint, even from owners / adopters
of "pussycat" Pyrs.  There's a definite shortage of owners who like being awakened by a dog who cruises thru
every bedroom 2 or 3 times a night, & goes up & down the stairs to check doors, windows, the view from the
sliders over the deck or patio, etc. It gets really old, really fast. 

Ppl SAY they want 'protective' dogs; what they really want is a dog who will bark when someone arrives, then
shut up & behave politely for the rest of the visit - unless something bizarre happens, when the dog is spozed
to miraculously intuit that this person is a Bad Guy, & BITE them.
They don't want dogs who do not welcome visitors, are asocial or antisocial, patrol compulsively, & may bite
without a whole lotta provocation.  What they CLAIM they want, & what they're willing to LIVE * WITH,
are not congruent images - IOW, as so often, what we humans say isn't what we really mean.

Those pussycat Pyrs... 
I've told this story previously on PF-uk; a family in VA adopted a 3-YO Pyr thru breed-rescue, the dog was quiet,
stoic [a classic LGD trait - DO check for injuries regularly, they don't exhibit pain], mild-mannered, & housebroken.
She was calm in public, quietly affectionate at home, came from a pet-home, enjoyed grooming [a big plus], & didn't
mind car-rides --- LGDs can be *so territorial*, they don't want to leave their home property. She didn't resist
being leashed or taken off home-turf - which is, IMO, a Good Thing. It's easy to find a vet to do a home-visit when
U live in ranch country; it's doggone difficult to find a home-visit vet in a suburban neighborhood.

So... they'd had her a couple of months, she'd settled in well, didn't take major umbrage at the mailnik, liked
the fella who delivered for Amazon, she's good with the kids & the cats, etc.
It's summer; they throw a garden BBQ, one evening, with the grill lit, drinks outside, neighbors & friends over,
kids, the patio sliders open, yadda-yadda.

One of the neighbors goes into the house, to use the toilet; he's met the dog, she knows him, all copacetic, right?...
About 10 or 15-minute later, the owner enters the house to find the man pinned to the wall by his shoulders,
the dog eye to eye with him, her paws on his shoulders holding him to the wall. I'm 5' 8" - this man is about 6' 2".
She's not growling when the owner sees her - she's just giving him a hard stare, with her mouth grimly closed.
The guest never even got to the bathroom - she intercepted him, alone - no escort --- & she stopped him.

the owner called her, she came right over, the man asked her to hold the dog's collar, went to the toilet,
emerged, & the dog spent the rest of the evening locked in the master bedroom, in her crate, with a stuffed
Kong.

The dog never offered any violence to that neighbor, but the neighbor's relationship with the Pyr never
recovered; he treated her like an unexploded bomb from that time on. Growling at him & pinning him left
an indelible memory.

There was also a 2-YO n/M with badger-ears who would stand at the head of the stairs, & refuse to allow the man
of the house upstairs; he slept on the sofa in the ground-floor living room for about 10-days, threw in the towel, &
the rescue took the Pyr back. He was later placed with a hobby-farmer who had chickens; he took to the flock,
slept in the henhouse at night, & only interacted with the family now & again.

So IMO & IME, Pyrs aren't Shelties, any more than Tibetan Mastiffs are. LGDs are LGDs - turf matters, WHO U are
matters, but even 'friends' aren't necessarily welcome in the family home without an escort, & some family
members aren't as well-tolerated as others, too. LGDs are very opinionated, as a group / type.

.
.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

MrsZee said:


> This difference between Ovcharkas and great Pyrenians was pointed out also in an Australian study about livestock guardian dogs. It also shows how easily we can destroy a working line quality in a breed, when we don´t respect their natural instincts, but instead start breeding them as suburban pets. The study also emphasizes the big differences between individual dogs, which is so true. I also agree with Ouesi, when she pointed out how late some Ovcharkas develop. I´m familiar with some Sars, which started to guard properly only after reaching 4 years of age, much to the great suprise of their owners.
> 
> http://www.invasiveanimals.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Guardian-Dogs-web.pdf
> 
> (if the link doesn´t work, just google Australian study livestock guardian, as I did. )


Fascinating reading.
A group of dogs I had no real understanding of.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

I didn&#8217;t say Pyrs were &#8220;pussycats&#8221; I simply said that comparing a Pyr to an Ovcharka is like comparing a Sheltie to a Malinois. The Sheltie and Malionis are both herding dogs, and that&#8217;s about where the similarities stop. The Pyr and Ovcharka are both LGDs, and that&#8217;s about where the similarities stop.

In the US and even more so in the UK, Pyrs are mainly bred as pets and have been for nearly a century. You&#8217;d have a harder time finding a Pyr with proper working temperament than finding a Pyr with pet temperament.
In ovcharkas, there is no pet temperament. They need to work.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Anything they can SEE from within the house or any fenced areas, is by default THEIRS.
> A sidewalk under a lounge window that overlooks the street, will become a major trigger for barking.
> *Anything that limits visibility is good* - frosted lower windows [self-stick panels] are excellent, even on
> such places as glass entry-doors or sliders that exit onto patios or balconies.
> *Solid privacy-fences are heartily recommended, rather than see-thr(ough)* types.





leashedForLife said:


> A dog-gate, higher & sturdier than a baby-gate is a good idea between the house proper & the front door - this allows delivery folks, & other unplanned arrivals to knock or ring, without the dog having direct
> access to the door itself; that lets the owner go thr_*(ough)*_ the gate, answer the door, & *leave the dog back 8 or so feet, to observe the transaction at a distance.*


I'm a bit puzzled by the above quotes so you really need to clarify how you decide what the dog is allowed or not allowed to see particularly if you uphold the idea that sight is knowledge and knowledge is understanding.

This breed of dog requires knowledge to understand its world.
. 
They watch everything. After all, they are '_Watchdogs_.' _Sentinels_. This is the intrinsic nature of the beast. They survey their world to keep it safe from harm.

Again, restrict the dog's world and it will soon become bored and very frustrated and a bored and very frustrated giant looking for something to occupy itself can be very, very destructive indeed.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> SOME Pyrs can cope with suburban or urban homes; there are also many who CANNOT deal with
> dense living, & become very sensitized to intrusions, interruptions, or noises-off at any time, or from any source.
> 
> *Nocturnal patrols* & nighttime barking at noises-off are a common complaint, even from owners / adopters of "pussycat" Pyrs.
> ...


I know lots of breeds, which don´t do well in suburban areas. For instance Finnish Spitz and Karelian Bear dog also patrol and guard to a certain extend, but that doesn´t make them like ovcharkas at all. I grew up with those breeds, so I have lots of experience of their behaviour. To me, a Pyr is very much like these dogs. No pussy cats, but nothing like ovcharkas either.

So the Pyr never offered any violence, and still got punished. Again the dog paid for the stupidity of a human.



ouesi said:


> In the US and even more so in the UK, Pyrs are mainly bred as pets and have been for nearly a century. Youd have a harder time finding a Pyr with proper working temperament than finding a Pyr with pet temperament.
> In ovcharkas, there is no pet temperament. They need to work.


The same goes for Pyrs in Europe, they are just pets here. I agree with Ouesi again, ovharkas do not have a need to please you like most pets. Instead they have a need to act independently and use their brain.

Based on the experience in Finland, ovcharkas thrive in families with small children and sheep to guard. Keeping ovcharkas in subarban surroundings is just asking for trouble. Unfortunately, the one who will end up paying the price is the dog, who will only do what it is supposed to do, guard and protect the owner from strangers by barking, by growling, by physically stopping the person/animal and as the last means, by attacking.

But then the same goes for most working line dogs. Collies e.g. need lots of activities to be happy. We should respect the true nature of a working dog, and not destroy those qualities, which make them a good working dog. There are dogs, which are bred to live in towns, so why not get them. Why we humans need to be so arrogant and keep wrong type of dogs in wrong type of circumstances?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> In the US and even more so in the UK, Pyrs are mainly bred as pets and have been for nearly a century.


Here too in Finland.

In fact Oscar's breeder, a man of infinite knowledge on the Sar' and other LGD's also bred Gt Pyrs.

None were from working lines.:001_smile:


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Here too in Finland.
> 
> In fact Oscar's breeder, a man of infinite knowledge on the Sar' and other LGD's also bred Gt Pyrs.
> 
> *None were from working lines*.:001_smile:


it makes for a very interesting conversation - the whole breeding for working ability. I found the article I linked about what it takes to be a successful LGD and how to breed for that fascinating. 

It's also really interesting to see how some ranchers combine the different guarding styles in different breeds and combine them to make the most effective team.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> it makes for a very interesting conversation - the whole breeding for working ability. I found the article I linked about what it takes to be a successful LGD and how to breed for that fascinating.
> 
> It's also really interesting to see how some ranchers combine the different guarding styles in different breeds and combine them to make the most effective team.


I haven't quite got round to reading it myself, too busy being an 4r53 in GC:blush: and elsewhere but give me time to discipline myself before MrsZee does and I'll knuckle down to it.

I'm particularly intrigued by the Pyr/Sar' comparison. :yesnod:

Obviously:001_smile:


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

ouesi said:


> it makes for a very interesting conversation - the whole breeding for working ability. I found the article I linked about what it takes to be a successful LGD and how to breed for that fascinating.
> 
> It's also really interesting to see how some ranchers combine the different guarding styles in different breeds and combine them to make the most effective team.


That is really interesting, and the ability of dogs to cooperate is just very clever. Some have roles to check things out quite far away, others stay close to the animals, and when need be, they all join together and scare the predators away. Hardly ever any fighting is needed.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I knew a lady on another site who bought her Pyr a herd of Goats to 'guard'  She said it was the best present she ever got her dog. Gave him a sense of responsibility and a job to perform.


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## Tyton (Mar 9, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> I knew a lady on another site who bought her Pyr a herd of Goats to 'guard'  She said it was the best present she ever got her dog. Gave him a sense of responsibility and a job to perform.


I think a divorce would be on the cards if I suggested that here  Ronin will just have to stick with 'protecting' us from the resident pack of bears (newfies).

Some interesting reading here, and many other views around also. As I've said elsewhere, I'll keep you all updated how I get on as Ronin grows up and matures, but it's been good to get some more insights of the task ahead for us, and hopefully cockersindie has had some good information to take back to the rescue centre about rehoming the fellow that has been handed into them.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

I was agreeing that Pyr's aren't likely go be the same as breeds that don't have a history as just pets, I imagine that's what is meant by domestication on that thread. I don't think that term is quite right, but it would be harder manage/fulfill the working desires in some breeds more than others if you don't have that ideal lifestyle for them.



Dogloverlou said:


> I remember that whole story unfolding as I was a member of that forum when KimH was getting that pup ( and I was subsequently chased off by some very unpleasant members ) She had countless posts from people telling her what a bad idea it was, but she went ahead anyway....and obviously learnt the hard way. She makes some interesting points, but loses me when she keeps going on about 'pack' mentality and her dubious training methods of 'ragging' and forcing the dog to face what it's reacting to etc.


Yes they do a mean bun fight & some very narrow minded folk.

I thought the info she'd found out on background interesting & it was a good example of a non-novice dog owner getting this breed and issues that may arise with this type of dog living in more typical UK home rather than having a big area to safely range.

I agree on dubious training methods, sorry should've made it clear i wasn't suggesting her as someone to contact for guidance as such, but equally once a dog is adopted you've no control over who they choose to take advice from so can only check their training views match what is deemed suitable.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

labradrk said:


> ...
> Just seen the pages of [COs] on Pets4Home and I'm shocked - one ad describes them as "the perfect pet".
> I had no idea that backyard breeders had already got their hands on them.
> 
> ...


*
oh, goody - a stranger-suspicious turfy LGD, who gives everyone other than family members the hairy-eyeball,
crossed with a hyperactive, mouthy, compulsive shepherd who's guardy & prone to full-mouth, full-force bites. 
 Oh, yeah - sounds like a recipe for a GREAT "family pet"...! :yikes:

Since setback is so important for the peace of mind of COs & other LGD types, & thus for the sanity of
the dog's family & the dog's own welfare, i'd say not one home in 10 is a potential 'good setting' for any
LGD, even the relatively-mild, run of the mill Pyr... let alone an Anatolian, CO, Tibbie Mastiff, etc.

It's not that different from the young couple with 2 children under 5-YO who get a JRT puppy, & then
b!tch endlessly about the dog snapping at the toddlers for trying to pick them up, taking their toys or food,
invading their space, crawling into their crates when the dog retreats for a break, pulling ears or poking
into eyes, etc, etc. Can U say, "bad fit"?... Plus they can't offer a very-active breed the TIME they
need for EXERCISE, in between changing diapers, feedings, bathing babies, necessary errands, SLEEP...

they whine their pup isn't housetrained, when they're expecting the pup to exit as required via a dog-flap.
DUH!... that's not housetraining; that's Blame The Puppy.

Unless they have live-in or regular help, parents with young children have no business getting a pup of any
breed whatever; infant humans are black-holes for parental time, & destroy sleep schedules. :nonod:
.
.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MrsZee said:


> I know lots of breeds, which don´t do well in suburban areas. For instance Finnish Spitz & Karelian Bear Dog
> also patrol and guard to a certain extent, but that doesn´t make them like Ovcharkas at all.
> 
> I grew up with [Finns & KBDs?], so I have lots of experience of their behaviour. To me, a Pyr is very much
> like these dogs. No pussy cats, but nothing like Ovcharkas, either.


as one of the most-recent, shiny-new-toy, breeds in the AKC, Finnish Spitz - with their compulsive barking! -
are going to be in way-too many completely inapropos, totally unprepared pet-homes.
U'd think *King of the Barkers* would warn them, but no... 


MrsZee said:


> So the Pyr never offered any violence, & *still got punished*. Again the dog paid for [human] stupidity.


I don't think sequestering a recent-adoptee in a quiet room, in their own accustomed crate, with a Kong
or something similar, qualifies as PUNISHMENT. I'd lay cash she was happier to be there, solo, than she was
wandering among the guests or feeling stressed by 'invaders'.


MrsZee said:


> ...
> We should respect the true nature of a working dog, and not destroy those qualities, which make them
> a good working [breed]. There are dogs... bred to live in towns, so why not get them? Why [do] humans
> need to be so arrogant & keep the wrong type of dogs in the wrong type of circumstances?


Because they can afford to buy X-breed, & think that the breed is handsome, cute, appealing, etc. :nonod:

Ppl buy or adopt dogs that are completely unsuitable every day; educating the public is a nonstop effort.
Every day, some kid turns 18-YO & decides a dog is the one thing s/he needs... & so on.

Many pet-owners think a dog is a dog is a dog... well, sorta. They're all interfertile.
But a Dane isn't a Chii isn't a Dachsie isn't an ACD isn't a Kuvasz, either. Breed does matter.
TYPE matters, IMO & IME, even more.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> ...a lady on another site... bought her Pyr a herd of Goats to 'guard'.
> She said it was the best present she ever got her dog. Gave him a sense of responsibility & a job
> to perform.


Trisha McConnell bought a farm & a flock of sheep for her BC. 

yes, it's a bigger toy than a tennis-ball - & more expensive, too - but needs must. :thumbup1:
.
.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2014)

MrsZee said:


> That is really interesting, and the ability of dogs to cooperate is just very clever. Some have roles to check things out quite far away, others stay close to the animals, and when need be, they all join together and scare the predators away. Hardly ever any fighting is needed.


I love nothing more than watching a working dog work :001_wub:
And LGDs are totally mesmerizing to watch work, especially in bigger operations where like you said, they work cooperatively. Yup, when they work together like that, rarely is there a need for an actual physical conflict. Hence why the blog is called predator friendly ranching  Intelligent use of LGDs are probably the most effective predator insurance out there.



MrsZee said:


> Based on the experience in Finland, ovcharkas thrive in families with small children and sheep to guard. Keeping ovcharkas in subarban surroundings is just asking for trouble. Unfortunately, the one who will end up paying the price is the dog, who will only do what it is supposed to do, guard and protect the owner from strangers by barking, by growling, by physically stopping the person/animal and as the last means, by attacking.
> 
> But then the same goes for most working line dogs. Collies e.g. need lots of activities to be happy. We should respect the true nature of a working dog, and not destroy those qualities, which make them a good working dog. There are dogs, which are bred to live in towns, so why not get them. Why we humans need to be so arrogant and keep wrong type of dogs in wrong type of circumstances?


I dont get it either  There are so many companion breeds out there, why mess with the working ones? Typical humans, were not content to admire from afar, we have to meddle in some way....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It's one thing that worries me about the popularity of Romanian rescues, a lot seem to have flock guardian blood. While there are brilliant at what they do and some of the most stunning dogs out there we don't have the space or big predators for many I don't think .

I'd love a komondor but I know realistically that unless I moved to the country and had a farm somewhere I wouldn't get one. They're very specialist dogs and too gorgeous for their own good.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Here's a frightening example of what goes catastrophically wrong when you don't have a clue to what you're doing but sheer arrogance leads you to believe otherwise.

I've posted this clip before and I'm posting it again for those who may not have seen it.

Ignore some of the remarks made by Follet who advertises and sells her dogs as 'weapons' :angry: If you're anything like me her ideals will do little more than stir up disbelief, anger and frustration in you.

Instead focus on 'Mike' who neither observed or respected the instincts of this animal and tells the listener _'Nikolai has a high tolerance to pain. Choke collars and E collars don't bother him.'_

[youtube_browser]EujeBI2edis[/youtube_browser]

Obviously Mike never did any research on the breed and obviously Mike never took any notice of Follet who may or may not have advised him how to raise the dog correctly and has, therefore, failed dismally to provide the dog with its most essential needs. 
His astounding incompetence and blinding incapability to control his dog shines through just as does his ignorance, consideration of his neighbours and the dog itself. 
If Nikolai ever escaped the confines of his prison I can't even begin to imagine what the consequences might be other than the dog's immediate destruction by attending police officers. It's disturbing to think just how many bullets might be required to stop his rampage.

People such as the individuals shown here only help perpetuate the poor imagine of an otherwise magnificent animal.

In no way am I trying to promote the Caucasian. I'm simply trying to illustrate everything that's wrong with the idea of keeping the animal in the wrong environment.

NO SCHOOL FOR NIKOLAI. DENIED LEARNING. DENIED UNDERSTANDING.

The reasons why this dog is so adversely reactive to his surroundings are simply (A) of a lack of socialisation but ultimately (B) the way in which his owner has imprisoned him. To Nikolai the outside world is completely alien.
Everything in it he has very little understanding of and therefore appears to him as a threat. 
His life in confinement has deprived him of all he should have been able to observe and all he should have come to understand. Human ignorance made Nikolai a dangerous dog.

What a travesty!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I thought the idea with raising them was to socialise them with everything possible and teach them that the owner knows best basically. That if the owner doesn't see something as a threat then they can relax. There's no way you can physically control one of these dogs surely so they have to be able to trust and respect you enough to listen.

There was someone elsewhere has ddr gsds and catahoulas, worked with all kinds of intense guard dogs. But the only one that truly scared them was a co.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> *I thought the idea with raising them was to socialise them with everything possible and teach them that the owner knows best basically.* That if the owner doesn't see something as a threat then they can relax.
> There's no way you can physically control one of these dogs surely so they have to be able to trust and respect you enough to listen.


That is precisely the idea. Censoring what they can possibly see/learn by and from is idiocy in the making and inevitably leads to what you see in the enclosed video.

By raising these animals incorrectly and in ignorance the quality of life for all living things concerned is soon reduced to misery.

And that's all I have to say on this matter:001_smile:


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Zaros said:


> The reasons why this dog is so adversely reactive to his surroundings are simply (A) of a lack of socialisation but ultimately (B) the way in which his owner has imprisoned him. To Nikolai the outside world is completely alien.
> Everything in it he has very little understanding of and therefore appears to him as a threat.
> His life in confinement has deprived him of all he should have been able to observe and all he should have come to understand. Human ignorance made Nikolai a dangerous dog.
> 
> What a travesty!


So well said Zaros. I think as far as LGDs go the CO (as well as Sars) seem to be the more 'primitive' ones in comparison to many others, and they're just not going to cope in environments like that. Add in a lack of socialisation and an owner who keeps dogs for idiotic reasons and you have a disaster waiting to happen. One of my biggest things right now is ensuring I keep socialising and socialising my first LGD, but also understanding his nature and being alert to anything he may perceive to be an issue so we can work together and be happy with the outside world.


Nicky10 said:


> I thought the idea with raising them was to socialise them with everything possible and teach them that the owner knows best basically. That if the owner doesn't see something as a threat then they can relax. There's no way you can physically control one of these dogs surely so they have to be able to trust and respect you enough to listen.
> 
> There was someone elsewhere has ddr gsds and catahoulas, worked with all kinds of intense guard dogs. But the only one that truly scared them was a co.


There's no way I could 'physically control' Targ if I didn't have the right equipment and we didn't have a fantastic, trusting bond together. If he paid no notice to me and decided something was an intruder, I'd be at a loss. Working in partnership with one of these dogs instead of using them as a weapon has to be the best way, imo, of getting control.


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

I really don't want any backlash about the rescue or any comment about the rehoming centre, I'm simply sharing his page- as he is now available and I said I'd share pictures. Staff are aware of his breed.

Ivan


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## Tyton (Mar 9, 2013)

I know you said you didn't want comments, but I have to say, he is GORGEOUS!. I also think the wording is very good, and measured. 

I'm really hoping you (the rescue) can find the right people and environment for Ivan to flourish.


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Tyton said:


> I know you said you didn't want comments, but I have to say, he is GORGEOUS!. I also think the wording is very good, and measured.
> 
> I'm really hoping you (the rescue) can find the right people and environment for Ivan to flourish.


I meant about the specific rescue I work for (have edited now! He is stunning! And very measured in his attitude to life- not silly baby puppy at all. ! I did the writing, usually we try to highlight positives but really had to focus on his breed really, because he's currently completely non-problematic.

Me too, I'm hoping he won't be with us too long, but very anxious to find the right set up.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> I knew a lady on another site who bought her Pyr a herd of Goats to 'guard'  She said it was the best present she ever got her dog. Gave him a sense of responsibility and a job to perform.


Always nice to hear good experiences of a working dog. But a working Pyr is an exception Lovely dogs though!



Nicky10 said:


> It's one thing that worries me about the popularity of Romanian rescues, a lot seem to have flock guardian blood. While there are brilliant at what they do and some of the most stunning dogs out there we don't have the space or big predators for many I don't think .
> 
> I'd love a komondor but I know realistically that unless I moved to the country and had a farm somewhere I wouldn't get one. They're very specialist dogs and too gorgeous for their own good.


That is a good point! Bringing cute pups without knowing about the breed is just totally irresponsible.


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## AnnetteV (Jan 3, 2015)

Just to add to the pet/working Pyrenean debate:

Even though they may mainly be kept as pets around here, there are also some working Pys left in Europe: ever since the reintroduction of wolves, lynx and bears in Switzerland they have successfully been used as flock guardians there. The second breed that's used for this purpose there is the Maremmano.


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