# Horrible dogs



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

My mom and sister got a pair of rough collie sisters about 2 years ago and the way the breeder was (that they told me) was really dodgy. Apparently the pups had to go early due to a divorce or something and I think they were 6/7 weeks old when my mom and sister got them (yeah I know this is too young). The mom wasn't there to be seen, apparently the husband got her and they were the only pups left. There were no papers and honestly they look way smaller than the border collies I've know growing up, 2/3rds the size of what I'm used to. They're really horribly, jumpy little dogs. My moms one pees and poops all over the house (which is really unpleasant for me when I visit), she snaps easily (worrying as there's a new baby that is across regularly) and she's impossible to walk (tries running infront of cars because she panics when they go past and somehow thinks getting infront of them is the best idea). My sisters dog does the same when she's at my moms and is also snappy. Don't get me wrong, I love dogs. I grew up with a king charles, springer spaniel, blue merle collie and a blue merle/springer cross and there was nothing like this with any of them. They were all house trained easily and well behaved and the only time there were problems was when our springer Tess suffered a series of strokes and wasn't able to get out as easily. If anyone can give me advice on atleast how to house train them I would be grateful, though I know it will be difficult with them being 2 years old. Thanks!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

All I can think of is an intense crash course on toilet training like you would with a new pup. Taking them out every 30/45 minutes, giving it a name when they start to later use as a toilet cue if/when they make the association, then tons of praise and rewards when they perform. Not telling them off when they have an accident, as with pups it can make them nervous about going in front of you, and make them more likely to sneak off and do it,especially as they are nervous types anyway you said I think. Clearing up any accidents in the house with a special pet accident cleaner and deoderiser as any smells left make them more likely to repeat it.

Dont know if they manage to stay clean through the night, if they dont then take them out once or twice in the night to go. At least for a week or two as you would a pup. Hopefully by keep taking them out and praising and rewarding plus establishing a word for a toilet cue, they might get it if outside if the only opportunity they are given to go.

If all else fails, you could have a go at crate training them for times they are unattended and you cant watch them. The idea of a crate is that its an aid to toilet training, as the theory behind it is a dog will not soil its bed or surrounding area. However, if they have never been crate trained and/or you have never done it before, then you will need to get tips first how to do it to get them accustomed to it, done in the wrong way and given their ages, then it wont likely succeed at all.

Only other thing I can add really is be vigilant, look out for signs of circling,sniffing or scratching at the floor, those are usually signs they are looking for somewhere to go, so if you see anything like that then you need to get them out quick.

Hope this might help.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> All I can think of is an intense crash course on toilet training like you would with a new pup. Taking them out every 30/45 minutes, giving it a name when they start to later use as a toilet cue if/when they make the association, then tons of praise and rewards when they perform. Not telling them off when they have an accident, as with pups it can make them nervous about going in front of you, and make them more likely to sneak off and do it,especially as they are nervous types anyway you said I think. Clearing up any accidents in the house with a special pet accident cleaner and deoderiser as any smells left make them more likely to repeat it.
> 
> Dont know if they manage to stay clean through the night, if they dont then take them out once or twice in the night to go. At least for a week or two as you would a pup. Hopefully by keep taking them out and praising and rewarding plus establishing a word for a toilet cue, they might get it if outside if the only opportunity they are given to go.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much. I'm on the other side of town from them but with them having a new baby/granddaughter that's going to be crawling around soon enough they really need to get the problem fixed so I'll certainly help them and relay any advice to them aswell. I'll let them know about the crate training idea, they may see it as a last resort and I honestly don't think they've really gotten their bums moving.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Thanks very much. I'm on the other side of town from them but with them having a new baby/granddaughter that's going to be crawling around soon enough they really need to get the problem fixed so I'll certainly help them and relay any advice to them aswell. I'll let them know about the crate training idea, they may see it as a last resort and I honestly don't think they've really gotten their bums moving.


Well if the crash course in toilet training doesnt work (which I hope it does)
and they want to have a go at crate training, then you can always re post about crate training and I and others can give you tips how to go about it, Done in the right way and made a pleasureable place to be, most dogs see it as a "den" so it doesnt need to be seen as a punishement or trial necessarily.
and hopefully it wouldnt be for ever anyway. Most people only use them to aid toilet training and to keep the pup from getting into things that might be dangerous when they are young, although some dogs really just like them as their sleeping area and den so some people just keep them. With a new baby,
and if they are inclined to be nervous and snappy at times, it might not be a bad idea anyway. At least until you can get them used to the baby, if they are not already, some dogs can go a bit freaky at first when the baby starts to get more mobile and into things. A crate would be somewhere safe where they can observe and get used to it perhaps, without any worries.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Whilst the pups did not have an ideal start, they will actually have been heavily influenced by the way they were raised from 6-7 weeks. What ever happened before, those taking them could see the signs and took on the responsibility. Your family also took on litter mates, who would remain very closely bonded to each other, more mutually supporting company and distracting each other, so adds to difficulty for training.

The reacting to things like cars, is something you may be able to improve; though you may see factors that make it advisable to consult good behaviourist. Here's 2 recent threads with some feedback :

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/158018-training-social-humans-dogs.html#post2359496
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/156911-help-needed-traffic-phobia.html

The great thing about dogs, is that they are usually very willing to change & learn new behaviours, if guided and given incentives to do so.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

First of all I'd get out of your head that they are horrible dogs! They're not. They were taken from their mum early, and it seems haven't had a great deal of training or work. Every pup should have that. None of it is their fault. If you want to work with these dogs (or teach your mum and sister how to), you are going to need to form a bond/relationship with them and you can't do that if deep down your perception of them is that they are horrible. 
Sorry if that seems like a rant, but hopefully you can see where I am coming from  Both of these dogs sound as though they need someone who can help them out, understanding the motivations for their behaviours and teaching them more desirable ones. 

If both dogs are what you describe as "snappy", i.e. will nip or show some kind of defensive display when they feel threatened; I would highly recommend something like a crate (or comfy bed) where the dogs learn that they can go if they've had enough of a situation, or somewhere you can send them to, to have some quiet time and relax. This crate will become their safe haven, so in no way is it used as a punishment. You are going to want to build loads of value to the crate, perhaps using food rewards (or whatever motivates your dog) and stuffed kongs for longer periods. So that they know that lovely things happen when they go there and that they can go there and not be bothered. You (your mum and sister) need to also be able to identify if a certain situation is becoming difficult for the dog and prompt him or her to go to their place as an alternative that avoids a situation that will stress the dog and other people.
The reactivity to moving cars is not surprising considering that they are herding breeds and by the sounds of things lacking in socialization etc. It's perfect possible to teach a more desirable alternative behaviour; mainly using a process called desensitization and counter conditioning (especially useful if there is a fear element in there, but it may well be that this is simple reactivity to movement, aggravated by long term stressors in dog's environment).
On that note you need to look at reducing stressors in the dog's life as often many chasing/ reactive behaviours are aggravated or worsened if the dog is constantly exposed to stressful situations etc. 
It may be that they become highly stressed at the doorbell sounding and/or the who visitor entrance routine, due to expectation that a scary stranger is coming. In such a situation, initially you need to set up management tools to prevent the dog from getting stressed. I.E. teach a new conditioned response to the sound of the bell.
Bell sound becomes cue for dog to run to his place/crate and await reward. Stairgates being installed and/or limiting the dog to a specific room, where his place is and leaving him to enjoy a stuffed kong or similar, takes the stress out of the situation for him. He no longer has to deal with the issue. Ahhhh, breath a sigh of relief!

You also need to provide these dogs with some kind of outlet for their instinctive behaviours. Not being able to safely perform their instinctive behaviour, could well be aggravating the car reactivity issue.
Do your mum and sister often play with the dogs, even just in the back garden. Are they remotely interested in toys?
I suggest that if you can capture interest in a toy, not only can you use it to reward the dog, but you should also be able to teach them to play, self control exercises, as well as a number of the working behaviours around the toy. 
If you give them a suitable outlet for their behaviour, you will no longer be surpressing behaviour and will hence be reducing stress. Allowing them a suitable outlet, should also greatly help you with conditioning a new response to urban movement (cars)- as if they have a suitable outlet they are less likely to chase undesirable targets in frustration (VERY dependant on the case mind- and that's not to say that the car reactivity isn't going to need lots of work).
I think you are best to contact a behaviourist to help and guide through how to work with these guys. On an internet forum, we can only help to a certain extent, really someone needs to see the behaviours and then set out a plan for behaviour modification.
I think this is particularly important if there is soon to be a young child added into the mix (congratulations BTW )
Make sure that the behaviourist is committed to only positive reinforcement, kind, humane methods (NO dog whispering types! Dogs need to be heard not whispered to!).

The APDT and APBC are a good place to start (you can search for your local behaviourist on each of their websites):
Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK
The APBC | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

Good luck


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Where abouts in scotland are you?
If you PM me your email address I will email you a toilet training regime used for puppies, that would be a start 

And are you sure they are rough collies and not shetland sheepdogs if they are smaller than a border collie? 

Rough Collie 









Sheltie


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Thanks for the responses everyone, will show them this thread (obviously editing slightly). PoisonGirl, PM'ing you now thanks  I'm in NE Scotland near Aberdeen. Definitely rough collies but I guess they could be a cross or something, like I said there were no guarantees with that breeder. I've thankfully talked my sister out of trying to breed with her dog, she thought she'd be able to get a stud for her


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Sent you an email 
If you were closer I could have helped but hope the info I have sent will help x


Ohh I forgot to add! If they are jumping up, turn away and fold your arms (or, tell them and any visitors to do this) once the dog has all 4 paws on the ground, then say hello to them. The Instant they jump, turn away again.
If they jump when people are sitting down, stand up.


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

It sounds a bit like they have been crossed with something as a true rough collie is on the whole quite a calm dog and very clean in their habits and very easy to train


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

They look like the ones you've posted but their muzzles are smaller and they're smaller in general. I know collies tend to be gentle and well behaved as we've had blue merle collies, border collies and rough collies in the past, all wonderful dogs but something just doesn't sit right with these two.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Bobbie said:


> It sounds a bit like they have been crossed with something as a true rough collie is on the whole quite a calm dog and very clean in their habits and very easy to train


:lol:
Not so sure about that. I've met a couple of nervous, uptight rough collies.

Generalizing about a breed in such a way, IMO isn't at all accurate. Whilst to a certain extent we can recognize certain breed characteristics in our dogs, it is hugely important to take into account, socialization (and this one is a biggie), relationship with owners (given any training? how much has the owner invested, timewise in the dog? Walked? Trained?) etc.

These dogs may well be crossed with something. But that's hardly the point!
They may well be pure-bred rough collies, who perhaps are slightly smaller due to bad breeding practices.

It could be that they are shelties.
Again though not the point.

What these guys need is for someone to say "Actually, I'm going to help these dogs out!" They're not really enjoying life ATM. By the sounds of things they are reactive (on edge), under-socialized, fearful, potentially under-exercised, don't have outlets for instinctive behaviours and they don't have a person that they can rely on to look out for them. 
Nothing to do with whether or not they are pure-bred. 100% to do with how they were (or weren't socialized), the training (or there lack of) they have received and their current quality of life.

Gratch- not sure what you mean about something "not sitting right with these two".

It may well by that these guys were badly bred and YES this may have an impact on how easily socialized they are, nervousness etc. 
BUT at the end of the day, these poor dogs haven't had anyone to look out for them, to give them positive experiences with other people, dogs etc, to train them, make sure that they have regular and suitable exercise. 
NO WONDER, they are so stressed out and reactive!!!

Even the most chilled of dogs would struggle in such an environment IMO.

With fearful, nervous and potentially badly bred dogs it's even more important that they receive good, positive training, are socialized well and exercised suitably.

I'm sorry if this post comes across harshly but IMO you need to change the way you perceive these dogs and start getting the humans in this situation to be more proactive about making sure that from now on, these dogs are suitably exercised and you start to work on their issues (with the guidance of a decent behaviourist) and hopefully make life easier to cope with for them.

The dogs are not to blame.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Gratch said:


> They look like the ones you've posted but their muzzles are smaller and they're smaller in general. I know collies tend to be gentle and well behaved as we've had blue merle collies, border collies and rough collies in the past, all wonderful dogs but something just doesn't sit right with these two.


Cant work out from your post if these are merles too, or you are just talking about blue merles you have had in the past? If they are both merle, do you know if the parents were? If you breed merle to merle, one mode of inheritance is that some of the pups will be MM double merle,
in double merles you have got a higher chance of deafness in one or both ears, its about a 1 in 4 chance. They also have a higher chance with eye problems too. Double Merles have even been known to have been born, blind and deaf, and even have the eyes deformed. Double Merles tend to be paler in colour than normal Merles. Even normal merles have a slightly higher problem of being born with hearing problems think its about 1 in 40, it can be deafness in one or both ears.

Probably barking up the wrong tree entirely, but if they are merle, dont know if some of their problems could be caused by hearing difficulties or maybe even eye probs? The double merle gene lightens pigment even more than the normal merle gene. a lot of the fur loses all pigment and be white,the eye often lighten to blue and the nose can be pink.

It was just you saying these are not "right" and the mention of merles, that made me remember health problems with merles, and I had read an article not so long ago, so looked it up to refresh my memory.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Cant work out from your post if these are merles too, or you are just talking about blue merles you have had in the past? If they are both merle, do you know if the parents were? If you breed merle to merle, one mode of inheritance is that some of the pups will be MM double merle,
> in double merles you have got a higher chance of deafness in one or both ears, its about a 1 in 4 chance. They also have a higher chance with eye problems too. Double Merles have even been known to have been born, blind and deaf, and even have the eyes deformed. Double Merles tend to be paler in colour than normal Merles. Even normal merles have a slightly higher problem of being born with hearing problems think its about 1 in 40, it can be deafness in one or both ears.
> 
> Probably barking up the wrong tree entirely, but if they are merle, dont know if some of their problems could be caused by hearing difficulties or maybe even eye probs? The double merle gene lightens pigment even more than the normal merle gene. a lot of the fur loses all pigment and be white,the eye often lighten to blue and the nose can be pink.
> ...


From the OP's first post I don't think that either of these dogs are merles.

Whether they are or not, because of the issues they have and potential bad breeding, it would be advisable to have them checked out by a vet (just to check for anything that may be causing the dog pain and hence aggravating any issues) and then consult a certified behaviourist.

Not sure what the OP means by "merle collies". 
You can get blue and red merle border collies
You can get blue merle rough collies (not even seen or heard of a red merle rough?)

It is absolutely true as you say that double merles can have a series of health problems. Poor things. Fortunately many of those involved in breeding are well aware of this and have a strict code of ethical guidelines on how they will and will not breed their dogs. It is unfortunate however that often many BRB types choose to breed two merles without a second thought for pups' welfare and health. I know of a rescue, who bless their hearts take in double merle puppies from a BRB type fairly often. They have confronted these people about what they are doing, offered to take all pups and dogs in (even if they have no space- they'll find some) to encourage them to stop breeding for a quick buck but these BRB's, being the vindictive people they are, threaten to kill the puppies unless they take them. Awful situation to be in. But at least these puppies go to homes experienced with blind and deaf dogs and often having already owned double merles.

Double merle border collie (blind and deaf)


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

lemmsy said:


> From the OP's first post I don't think that either of these dogs are merles.
> 
> Whether they are or not, because of the issues they have and potential bad breeding, it would be advisable to have them checked out by a vet (just to check for anything that may be causing the dog pain and hence aggravating any issues) and then consult a certified behaviourist.
> 
> ...


I knew you could get different colour merles in some breeds, but wasnt sure if roughs/shelties were just blue merle, as not my breed, so I just used merle in general not a specific colour merle.

I know the KC has now decided not to register the progeny of merle to merle matings, apparently the proposal was proposed by most of the breed clubs themselves, ie ethical breeders. You may now not mate merlexmerle shetland sheep dogs, dapplexdapple Dachshunds (all varieties) or even tri colour x tricolour beucerons even apparently. They have also banned registration of any merles in a number of breeds where their is evidence of it not being a natural coat colour, Chihuahuas,staffordshire bull terrier, bull terriers or Minature bull terriers.

As you say though thats fine as KC reg and ethical breeders go, it doesnt stop bybs and Pf and unethical breeders doing the mating. Like everything else, if there is a demand for the colour, and a profit they are not going to stop. Ive seen a pucture of a double merle shetland sheepdog too a totallt blind deaf albino with no pigment. Its so sad.

Its fantastic that this rescue takes them in and gives them a chance of a home and life.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I knew you could get different colour merles in some breeds, but wasnt sure if roughs/shelties were just blue merle, as not my breed, so I just used merle in general not a specific colour merle.


Sorry, was actually refering to what the OP, Gratch described as "blue merle collies", before they then went on to say that they had also owned border collies and rough collies before in addition to these blue merle collies. 
Confused me a bit, as you can either get a blue merle border collie or a blue merle rough collie. No such thing as a "blue merle collie". 
Sorry, didn't explain what I meant very well 



> Its fantastic that this rescue takes them in and gives them a chance of a home and life.


Absolutely. They are a fantastic lot and do their absolute best for the puppies. Unfortunately they do come under a lot of fire from some people, who suggest that by continuing to take in these pups they are encouraging the BRB/PFer to continue to breed. But what can you do? Would we have them let the PFer kill the pups?
If I was in that situation, I know I'd certainly just take the pups in.
Tough one. It really is. 
Anyway, sorry OP and everyone for going on a tangent there.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

lemmsy said:


> Sorry, was actually refering to what the OP, Gratch described as "blue merle collies", before they then went on to say that they had also owned border collies and rough collies before in addition to these blue merle collies.
> Confused me a bit, as you can either get a blue merle border collie or a blue merle rough collie. No such thing as a "blue merle collie".
> Sorry, didn't explain what I meant very well
> 
> ...


Sorry from me too for taking it off topic a bit OP, still you never know might be useful to anyone reading and considering/looking to get a Merle, at least they will know to avoid Double Merles now, and be careful.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lemmsy said:


> These dogs may well be crossed with something. But that's hardly the point!
> They may well be pure-bred rough collies, who perhaps are slightly smaller due to bad breeding practices.
> 
> It could be that they are shelties.
> ...


Exactly!! We've all seen posh dogs ruined by not having their needs met, and I actually tend to find, with BC's, Mongrels are often most appealing, intelligent, honest & eager to earn dogs.

Now from my reading of the history, some sources say Border Collies changed name from just Collie, when KC recognised looks based rather than performance dogs for showing; the distinction created differences with the Lassie type Scotch dogs, very different from the originals. History is repeating, with the BC being split between, ISDS, farm dogs and show lines; and the KC breed standard even objects to wall eyes in non-merle dogs!

No matter if they're Rough Collies or Shelties, or small merle Collies, they're basically pastoral dogs, intelligent & prone to reactivity, with high energy.


> They're not really enjoying life ATM. By the sounds of things they are reactive (on edge), under-socialized, fearful, potentially under-exercised, don't have outlets for instinctive behaviours and they don't have a person that they can rely on to look out for them.
> Nothing to do with whether or not they are pure-bred. 100% to do with how they were (or weren't socialized), the training (or there lack of) they have received and their current quality of life


I agree, forget the past it cannot be changed. Let's improve the future of those dogs, and I hope the OP, once seeing some progress, will give these dogs a chance to show another side.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Just read all these, the dogs aren't merles, thought merles were a breed of collie sorry, I just know my sister's previous was a 'blue merle collie'  She still has his papers bless, even though he's sitting in a little urn now. The dogs are exercised as much as they'll allow but they generally won't go far and if they are in sight of any road other than the ones outside the houses, they panic and it's just not safe until they learn to behave near the roads. They have (mostly) free access to the garden and get walked around the block 2/3 times a day. They get played with, especially when my dad and sisters OH get home, they have toys, they're well fussed over so they're not being neglected. The whole reason I posted was to get them help sorting them out as they seem resigned to their behaviours (as I said, all other dogs we've had have been brilliant). PoisonGirl sent me an e-mail about house/crate/stopping nipping training and I've forwarded them to my parents and sister and my dads making sure everyone knows what to do to make it go as smoothly as possible. Hopefully they'll soon have all that under control and then they'll just need to work on the traffic issues. Thank you all for your replies. (Just want to remind people also that they're NOT my dogs  I can only assist as much as my time allows and if I didn't care I wouldn't have made the thread.)


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Also if anyone can suggest how to stop them attacking cats, that would be great. My sisters one gets along fine with them but the cats at my parents house have been living in fear since they arrived. Was playing with one of the cats when I was over once and the dog lunged at her from across the room and got her around the neck. I guess this is probably one of my main gripes with that one, really my moms dog gives my sisters a worse name than deserved as she is house trained when at home but when she's at my parents, does the toilet wherever. As I said, she's fine with the cats but does have a nipping problem.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Personally I would suggest the owners need to see some progress first, that their dogs can calm, responding to crate training & the traffic work; then they should have better relationship with the dogs helping later.

The dogs enjoy chasing things, so switching them off the cats, won't be easy; so until they've made some progress, common sense management to avoid the cats being chased makes sense, give the cats a peaceful area without the threat from the dogs.

A massive over-whelming list, might just be too daunting.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Watched this vid and it made me wonder if what you've seen sounds & looks a bit like this, with the litter mates being very doggy and attached to each other, the clip shows a Sheltie whilst a larger dog looks on, he's working a ball - YouTube - When Herding Dogs Don't Have Sheep

Would be horrible if it were your ankles!


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Aye they're VERY much like that and very over-excitable. My sister would love an excuse to get sheep


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

good luck to your family with the dogs, i think they really need to go back to treating them like they would a new puppy, introduce the things calmly, slowly and make a big reward for the positive steps, no matter how little.

As for the traffic and busy roads, they need to take it very slowly and just go a little further and reward each time, keep them focussed on the good rewards and just gradually get nearer.

I would also try and get them to have a good leave command, this can then be taken to anything indoors or out and when fully ingrained you can get them to leave pretty much anything.

Would be nice to see some piccies.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Rolosmum said:


> good luck to your family with the dogs, i think they really need to go back to treating them like they would a new puppy, introduce the things calmly, slowly and make a big reward for the positive steps, no matter how little.
> 
> As for the traffic and busy roads, they need to take it very slowly and just go a little further and reward each time, keep them focussed on the good rewards and just gradually get nearer.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'm hoping it goes well too  I guess I just don't like untrained dogs! Will get pics over the weekend next time I'm up and will hopefully have some minor success to report aswell


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

Gratch said:


> My mom and sister got a pair of rough collie sisters about 2 years ago and the way the breeder was (that they told me) was really dodgy. Apparently the pups had to go early due to a divorce or something and I think they were 6/7 weeks old when my mom and sister got them (yeah I know this is too young). The mom wasn't there to be seen, apparently the husband got her and they were the only pups left. There were no papers and honestly they look way smaller than the border collies I've know growing up, 2/3rds the size of what I'm used to. They're really horribly, jumpy little dogs. My moms one pees and poops all over the house (which is really unpleasant for me when I visit), she snaps easily (worrying as there's a new baby that is across regularly) and she's impossible to walk (tries running infront of cars because she panics when they go past and somehow thinks getting infront of them is the best idea). My sisters dog does the same when she's at my moms and is also snappy. Don't get me wrong, I love dogs. I grew up with a king charles, springer spaniel, blue merle collie and a blue merle/springer cross and there was nothing like this with any of them. They were all house trained easily and well behaved and the only time there were problems was when our springer Tess suffered a series of strokes and wasn't able to get out as easily. If anyone can give me advice on atleast how to house train them I would be grateful, though I know it will be difficult with them being 2 years old. Thanks!


I'm confused...your mum and sister got them at 6-7 weeks old 2 Years ago?..so the dogs are now 2 years old and have been with your mum & sister since they were 6-7 weeks old? ...and they've not managed to toilet train them or anything in the nearly two years they've had them??


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> I'm confused...your mum and sister got them at 6-7 weeks old 2 Years ago?..so the dogs are now 2 years old and have been with your mum & sister since they were 6-7 weeks old? ...and they've not managed to toilet train them or anything in the nearly two years they've had them??


this is an old thread


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Gratch said:


> They look like the ones you've posted but their muzzles are smaller and they're smaller in general. I know collies tend to be gentle and well behaved as we've had blue merle collies, border collies and rough collies in the past, all wonderful dogs but something just doesn't sit right with these two.


Are you SURE these aren't shetland sheepdogs?
They sound an awful lot like them. 
They look almost exactly like a rough collie but are diddly, smaller than both a border collie and a rough collie.

Additionally, while i don't like to stereotype as all dogs are individual, shelties are known for being exceptionally sensitive and prone to fearful behaviour and anxiety.
Some claim they are quite 'yappy' and very excitable/hyperactive. 
Running infront of cars is definate herding behaviour. 
Regarding the cat, it's worth noting that herding is effectively a 'slice' out of a days hunting for a meal.
You witness the dog spotting, stalking then manipulating the prey into moving where it wants it.
There the sequence ends, you don't see the grab, rag and eat. 
A huge proportion of collies are unsuitable for working despite showing the instinct, often because the cut off of the predatory sequence is a little sketchy and they grab or even try to kill the sheep.


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