# Annual vacinations yes or No?



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I would very much appreciate your thoughts in this matter since I am extremely suspicious about annual injections for my dog.

I think that most people will agree that initial vaccinations should be administered. However, is there really a need to subject our pets to annual boosters? 

How much revenue is created from this process, I suspect a large amount when you take into consideration the cost each year! Before I have any of my puppies vaccinated for the first time, I ask my vet to carry out a complete health check to insure if they are well enough.

My GSD has not had any vaccinations now for over 6 years, since research in the States has suggested that boosters are only required every 5 - 6 years. I also worry that his state of health would not cope with another vaccination and I do not wish to further add to his problems.

From a personal view, I honestly feel that our vets do over vaccinate. What are your thoughts? After all, I do not know of any child or person who is subjected to this.


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

hi same with me my dogs have their first lot and then the booster then thats it sprinkle now 11 1/2 years old and he never suffered from it 

my old dog i had from child hood only ever had his first as well and he died well into his 15's never had a days of illness oh except a ear infection and thats it

like you said we dont have boosters every year 
and a fit healthly dog has a good system to fight any infections they pick up
vets like to make money they are willing to give out med's like sweets and charge you alot for it


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

I have all my animals vaccinated at first, my eldest dog who is 13 now only ever had the first two and has never needed the vets. I believe that the vets just want to make money, the problem is that alot of the insurance companies require you to have them done, so what choice do we have. My younger dogs are insured so I am forsed into having them done.


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

vixenelite said:


> I have all my animals vaccinated at first, my eldest dog who is 13 now only ever had the first two and has never needed the vets. I believe that the vets just want to make money, the problem is that alot of the insurance companies require you to have them done, so what choice do we have. My younger dogs are insured so I am forsed into having them done.


the insurance companies are just as bad as some of the vets
you pay out and then when its your turn to claim it back they turn round and oh you cant claim for this and that and you end up thinking well why the hell have i got the insurance for in the first place i have only my 2 oldest dogs on insurance i did have all but was thinking why pay out insurance in jazz 6 years i ever only claimed for a small whole that he got.
and as for the others never claimed on them at all 
so before jazz's 7th birthday i will get him insured because they do get ill as they get old 
then again i might not


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## georges mummy (Nov 24, 2007)

all mine are jabbed every year. first off for insurance who touch wood have paid out every time.
secondly my neighbours dog was put to sleep last year because he caught parvo through no boosters.
i dont think its worth the risk of them being sick not having their jabs done.


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## growler1961 (Nov 2, 2007)

all our dogs have their jabs every year
i do think we should ask more questions about the need for them every 12months!
but i wouldnt be prepared to take the risk! at this present time
it does leave me a little concerned to think that there are dogs with out protection , if all dogs were done then nobody would suffer the loss of a pet to preventable disease , a friend of mine lost a pup with parvo both owner & pup went through a living hell its never worth the risk


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## BredaKim (Nov 10, 2007)

Mine have been done every year...I also wonder about the need for it, but as I'm breeding Megan I have to have her done or any reputable breeder won't touch her with a barge pole...can hardly blame them really.
I do sometimes wish I had become a vet...think of all that money they make  I could be living a life of luxury now  <sigh>


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

I only had my last gsd done as a pup and had the booster she lived to be 13yrs and never needed a vet , Now im undecided weather to have my two gsd pups done every year as i have read so much on the net againsed every year im very confused about it all. most say four or five years is enough and the vets are just making money, then some say it must be done Im just totally confused about the whole thing.


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## Dr Dan (Nov 28, 2007)

Let me shed a little light on the subject with a little education. I am a veterinarian from the U.S. and have really focused on educating dog owners about the problems with annual vaccination.

First you need to understand how vaccines work. When a vaccine is given to your dog the body acts like it has been infected with the disease of the vaccine and it produces antibodies. It is the antibodies that protect against an actual infection. As long as the antibodies are in the dogs body the dog will be protected. And that is where the research comes in. A duration study is one that tests how long antibodies stay around or last in the body. In the past drug companies were only testing for one year because that was all they were required to test. Why would they test longer they would lose money if the antibodies stay around longer? Well duration studies done independently by veterinarians such as Dr. Ron Schultz of the University of Wisconsin-Madison show that the antibodies for the diseases of Distemper, Parvo and Hepatitis stay in the dogs body between 6 and 9 years. Which means that a dog is protected against those diseases after proper vaccination for that long of a time period. In fact some of the research indicated that a few dogs are actually protected longer than that. The 6 to 9 years is only an average, which means some dogs are protected longer and some dogs less than that as well.

So now comes the problem. You see annual vaccination has side effects. Really bad side effects. In recent studies it has been implicated that annual vaccination causes an overstimulation of the immune system which in turn causes diseases such as allergies, autoimmune diseases (the body attacking itself such as in AutoImmune Hemolytic Anemia), and even cancer. In fact in cats it has been proven that annual vaccination causes a specific type of cancer. Anecdotal evidence by myself and many many other veterinarians is showing that if you have a dog with allergies giving them a vaccination will stimulate an allergic episode and that if you do not vaccinate the dog anymore the allergic episodes reduce in frequency and severity. I personally have had dogs with horrible skin allergies make a complete recovery by changing their diet and no longer giving vaccines.

My vaccination recommendations now - complete series of puppy vaccines then a booster a year later, then titers (a blood test to determine the level of antibodies in the dog) every three years to determine if the dog still has antibodies in their system. If they do then they are protected against the disease and do not require a booster. If the antibody level is low then the dog receives a vaccine of that disease.

It has been difficult to change a procedure that has been pushed hard for so many years, even many veterinarians are fighting the change to the new vaccine protocols, so I can only imagine what it does to owners. The insurance companies will discontinue their requirements of annual vaccinations when it becomes pretty much common knowledge that annual vaccination will cost them more money in the long run by treating for allergies, autoimmune diseases and cancer. They will require puppy vaccines and then boosters every three years. I still do not like that protocol but it is better than annual vaccinations.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

THANK YOU so much for your input Dr Dan, since this statement has been a long time coming!

I know of so many cases where dogs have died as a result of having these yearly boosters, which cause so many side affects.

I would very much appreciate if you could send me your full report to include on my website. My email address is [email protected] It will be just the amnuition I need to tackle some of these veterinary establishment who continue to put money before the health of the dog.


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## growler1961 (Nov 2, 2007)

this infomation has left me wanting to know more 
yesterday i was affraid not to vacinate
but today after reading this report now realising you can have a test to see if it is needed im having a total chance of mind 
do you know if this is available in england
as the report was from america
im sure my vet will not be in favor 
i do breed so i would have testing done for sure


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## noubi (Nov 20, 2007)

georges mummy said:


> all mine are jabbed every year. first off for insurance who touch wood have paid out every time.
> secondly my neighbours dog was put to sleep last year because he caught parvo through no boosters.
> i dont think its worth the risk of them being sick not having their jabs done.


it didnt happen to be a rottie by any chance did it?


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

What a brilliant informative post Dr Dan, the trouble is we can only base any decisions on evidence that is made available, sometimes this is not forthcoming. We have not yearly vaccinated our dogs for approx 3 years now, as our eldest dog had a bad reaction 2 years running, and we thought we were running out of warnings.

I don't think all insurance companies insist on yearly jabs, we have a dog at our club, who i know is insured, but gets titer tested every year, so far she has all the antibodies needed and has not needed further vaccinations


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

In England, we are frightened into subjecting our dogs to annual vaccinations, and it really is unfair and also puts the heath of our beloved dogs at risk.

I have had many a heated debate with vets on this subject, but ask yourselves how much do they make each year by vaccinating 1 dog alone. I believe approximately £50.00. How many dog and cats are they in this country? 

It really is up to us as responsible owners to campaign until something is done. There is a wonderful book written by Catherine O'Driscoll entitled What Vets Dont Tell You About Vaccinations. 

I intend to continue my research on this subject and would love to hear from any dog/cat owner who has suffered an allergic reaction from vaccinations to help strengthen my case.


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

growler1961 said:


> this infomation has left me wanting to know more
> yesterday i was affraid not to vacinate
> but today after reading this report now realising you can have a test to see if it is needed im having a total chance of mind
> do you know if this is available in england
> ...


you can get the test here my friend had hers tested to see if he needed the vaccinations due to him starting to have a reaction to the injections


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## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

Argh vaccinate your dogs every 12 months! It depends on the brand of vaccination too. I'm sure they are very different in the US! Our vaccine Duramune DaPPi lasts 12 months. You would seriously think differently if you had seen the amount of dogs die from parvo that I have. They are not nice deaths. I have never seen a dog have a bad reaction to a vaccine other than a temperature and feeling a bit 'off'.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2007)

I too have been one of the many who has thought long and hard over the pros and cons of vaccinations on a yearly basis. I have a brilliant vet who is from New Zealand, not out to make money he has always been very truthfull with me and I can honestly say he is the best vet I have ever had.
We talked at length on this subject and though he vaccinates each year he uses different combinations each time so that each vaccine is actually only given 2 yearly with the exception of the leptospirosis which needs to be given each year. He is also quite happy to do blood tests if clients prefere but stresses the importance of the lepto vaccine.
There was a severe outbreak of parvo in my area this year and every single dog that passed through my vets with this dreadful desease was un-vaccinated.


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## Dr Dan (Nov 28, 2007)

Dawny,

I am sorry to hear that you have seen so many parvo cases. My guess from completely unvaccinated dogs. Your vaccine Duramune DaPPi is made by Fort Dodge an American company. It is the exact same as the one given here, which means the duration of immunity is much longer than one year.

The facts are the facts, your dogs in England do not have weaker immune systems than those in the US, the vaccine does exactly the same thing. What you are missing is that it is NOT the vaccine that lasts that long, it is the dogs immune system responding to that vaccine, producing antibodies, which is what protects the dog. The antibodies in the dog last for a certain period of time in dogs for Parvo antibodies last on average from 7 to 9 years.

Here is a link to a study done by a drug company in 2005. Now mind you this is a drug company with a strong bias to show that vaccines have less duration not more. The study was conducted only for 3 years. 100% of the dogs were protected after those three years from hepatitis, parvo and distemper. And this is only one study there are several more showing similar or even better results.

Three-year duration of immunity in dogs following ...[Vet Ther. 2005] - PubMed Result


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## Dr Dan (Nov 28, 2007)

I also forgot to mention that we are not talking short term reactions to vaccines here. The research shows long term effects not short term. Cancer, Allergies, and Autoimmune Hemolytic Anemia are not caused by a reaction to a single vaccine but rather long term multiple vaccines.


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## Dr Dan (Nov 28, 2007)

jan-c said:


> I too have been one of the many who has thought long and hard over the pros and cons of vaccinations on a yearly basis. I have a brilliant vet who is from New Zealand, not out to make money he has always been very truthfull with me and I can honestly say he is the best vet I have ever had.
> We talked at length on this subject and though he vaccinates each year he uses different combinations each time so that each vaccine is actually only given 2 yearly with the exception of the leptospirosis which needs to be given each year. He is also quite happy to do blood tests if clients prefere but stresses the importance of the lepto vaccine.
> There was a severe outbreak of parvo in my area this year and every single dog that passed through my vets with this dreadful desease was un-vaccinated.


There are vets here in the states doing the same thing only going every three years. Giving parvo the first year, distemper the second, and hepatitis the third and then starting over with parvo again. I see this could still be a problem since it is actually the adjuvants in the vaccine stimulating the immune system and you would still be giving that every year. I personally like titering and since we have several years of data now we are pretty sure the results are accurate as to protective levels of antibodies.


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## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

Then why the **** are we advising every 12 months lol? Excuse my ill informed knowledge, I am but a wee student!


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2007)

Thanks for the info Dr Dan. It is something to think about but what are your views on the lepto vaccine? As far as I am aware (and I am no expert) Isn't the lepto vaccine given in this country different from that given in the USA. Maybe I am wrong it is just something I have been told. I just know that in all the different studies there is little mention of this vaccine. Until someone proves otherwise to me then I will at least continue to boost lepto every year. I do intend to have blood tests next year to determine the titre level but I believe there is no test to determine antibodies for leptospirosis.


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## Dr Dan (Nov 28, 2007)

jan-c said:


> Thanks for the info Dr Dan. It is something to think about but what are your views on the lepto vaccine? As far as I am aware (and I am no expert) Isn't the lepto vaccine given in this country different from that given in the USA. Maybe I am wrong it is just something I have been told. I just know that in all the different studies there is little mention of this vaccine. Until someone proves otherwise to me then I will at least continue to boost lepto every year. I do intend to have blood tests next year to determine the titre level but I believe there is no test to determine antibodies for leptospirosis.


Unfortunately at this time the duration for lepto is only one year. Here the states it is very regional. If you live in an area that has lepto you give the vaccine, if not you don't. UK has a lot of lepto from what I understand.

Now the question is...which type of lepto is prevalent in the UK? Dogs contract two types of lepto and unless a new vaccine has come out in the last year only one is covered by the vaccine.


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## Dr Dan (Nov 28, 2007)

Dawny,

quick response - I do not know!
real response - because that is the way it has always been.

research supported response - Duration of immunity (DOI) and booster vaccination...[Vet Microbiol. 2006] - PubMed Result

It seems to be an attitude thing in the UK and if it is similar to what has occurred here in the US...money is a big factor. And no it is not because vets are greedy but rather here in the states the average veterinary practice obtains 33% of its gross income from vaccines! Now we are going to cut that into a third or more! Vets with bad business sense are going to be out of business.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2007)

Dr Dan said:


> Unfortunately at this time the duration for lepto is only one year. Here the states it is very regional. If you live in an area that has lepto you give the vaccine, if not you don't. UK has a lot of lepto from what I understand.
> 
> Now the question is...which type of lepto is prevalent in the UK? Dogs contract two types of lepto and unless a new vaccine has come out in the last year only one is covered by the vaccine.


Thanks for the reply, very interesting. I am not sure which type is prevalent in the uk but will talk this over with my vet next week as I have an appointment. It's a good job he is patient because I bombard him with questions at each visit
I will let you know what he says. Thank you again for your input I find this a very interesting subject and we all want to do the very best for our dogs.


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## noubi (Nov 20, 2007)

can anybody tell me in any of their research if they have found it more in black and tan dogs, i had a vet who said research showed that rotties and similar dogs with that colour are more prone to parvo evenwith vaccines, anyone else found this.?


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## plumo72 (Nov 2, 2007)

My dogs and my Mum's dogs have never had boosters and have been very healthy and lived until good ages


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2007)

My younger 2 have their boosters yearly, my old girl has'nt had hers for a gd few years now.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I notice that parvo virus keeps reoccurring in this thread, so thought my sharing my experience may be appropriate.

My first GSD, who received all his vaccinations, contracted parvo when he was 10 months old. It was a miracle that he survived. The vet was constantly telling us not to worry since it was actually gastric enteritis, yet on the third visit when he started to hemorrhage, he was rushed into intensive care and kept in isolation. Our little rescue bitch had been subjected to this (she had also been vaccinated), and it was suggested that she received yet another shot "just to be safe". Being completely ignorant of vaccines we took the vets advice and three days later she was dead.

This was however, 23 years ago, and I am sure that modern vaccines have far more protection. Personally, we have decided to rescue in future, but I will definitely ask my vet for the titer test, since I will not subject my dogs to the constant barrage of shots and therefore put their lives in danger.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Parvo virus is just abysmal and that smell will haunt me. My dog was I thought, literally dying in front of my eyes and still the vet would do nothing! To think that I subjected my little rescue bitch to yet another vaccination haunts to me to this day. She was with Ben throughout, and basically had little or no chance of survival.

Needless to say we changed our vet and never returned.


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## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

loe said:


> my mums 2 dogs mia and nancy and their sister paris all caught parvo 9 years ago, they was all puking, pooing out diarea with blood and was dehydrated and didnt eat or drink, believe it or not all 3 survived and they are still alive this very day, the vet that we had at the time asked if we had them vacinated and asked for proof, to ask for proof tells me he didnt believe we had them vaccinated ( which we did ) and had the proof.
> after reading the thread on the vacinations it really makes me wonder if they beat parvo all by themselfs without the help of the vacine? or whether it was the vaccine that helped them beat it?.
> its so hard to decide whats best for your dogs now a days without real proof whether the vaccine helps our dogs or what.


Vets need proof because a vaccine card is a legal document. They aren't allowed to assume a dog's been vaccinated without it so don't take offense! Also, if a dog hasn't been vaccinated, it's not fair to expose them to other ill dogs in the ward.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2007)

i didnt take offence, i just wondered!.
and yes, i agree with not exposing an unvacinated dogs to other ill dogs and visa versa..


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Loe, I rather think that it was our vet at that time, that was responsible for the death of our little rescue bitch. To think that we found her with her sister in a cardboard box by the railway station just 8 months before. 

I cannot tell you how angry we were and changed vets immediately. However, that does not bring your much loved dog back!


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Loe, in my work you see all manner of things, and in order to help animals, you must put them first and try to hold your feelings in check.

I have witnessed rabbits that are being eaten alive all because their owners keep them in tiny hutches, with little or no cleaning. Rats kept alone when they are community animals as are rabbits. The worse case scenario - I will not go there as its upsetting in the extreme.


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## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

Rabbits do not need other rabbits. Mine has the dog and 2 cats and of course us humans lol! What is your line of work? I see all sorts of horrible things too. The worst I think was a newfoundland who had a wound on his back which had been left open for so long that it was filled with maggots which were eating him alive... needless to say he was put to sleep.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Dawny, I run a pet sitting company, but have worked with animals for most of my adult life. 

Rabbits live in communities, as do rats and should ideally have a companion. I am not down crying people who keep 1 rabbit or 1 rat, just trying to highlight how they live in the wild, and what a lonely existence it is for them being alone. 

The rabbit I was using as my example had fly strike on two occasions, and eventually I suggested very strongly that the owners vet tried to educate them on good husbandry for their rabbit. The hutch was so small and always covered, so he never saw daylight and could hardly turn around. Why these hutches are legal is beyond me!

The worse case scenario I have seen, with regard to cruelty, was a male dog that had been sexually abused. It was sickening. His behaviour was totally erratic when meeting strangers and he turned circles to the point of exhaustion. When the owner took him for a vet check, an internal examination took place and the damage was then discovered.


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## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

Nina Cole said:


> Dawny, I run a pet sitting company, but have worked with animals for most of my adult life.
> 
> Rabbits live in communities, as do rats and should ideally have a companion. I am not down crying people who keep 1 rabbit or 1 rat, just trying to highlight how they live in the wild, and what a lonely existence it is for them being alone.
> 
> ...


It depends on the rabbit though too. A lot of them fight. Like I said, mine has company 24/7 although we only have 1 rabbit.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Loe,

Please do NOT run out and get another rat as a result of my previous thread. You must remember that your rat is now unused to company, and there could be problems introducing a newbie. 

The whole point of that post was to say in an ideal world, people who want pets that live in communities, should consider homing two instead of one. Rats are extremely sociable creatures, as you know, especially boys, and there are cases where two will fight regardless. 

So I would stick with her, and enjoy your little girl, since I am sure she is happy and content with you. Likewise with Dawny and her rabbit.

I had two female rats, and when one died (she was very young), I knew that Sophie would not fare well on her own, so I took her along to a rescue centre where I was told a male rat was awaiting a new home. It was an instant hit, and once he had been snipped, they lived together like an old married couple. It really was a match made in heaven. You should always remember to introduce any new friend outside of a pets established territory. The first few meetings should also be supervised, until harmony is achieved.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2007)

ty for that nina 

even tho i would of loved a new one as much as i do my lil girly rat, ild rather not of got another one to tell the truth.
i just thought after reading the thread that she needed a new mate.
she really is happy on her own, its not like she is stuck in her home 24/7, shes always happy to come out and is out more times then she is in .


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I had this awful thought that you may be dashing out to get another little rat and your current one, swinging her round the head with her bedding lol


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2007)

lol noooo haha dont panic,

i would of obviously looked into it befor getting another rat, specially one that would of been housed with another rat like mine thats been on her own for a year or so.

im not the sort to rush out on impulse going by the first thing i read.

i always take my time and ask questions and pay big attention to advice given to me .


sooo no bedding beatings lol.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I have heard alot of people in the Rottie community who have their dogs vaccinated and then have titer tests done to see if the vaccine has taken. I have friends who have the titer test done to check their dogs levels and vaccinate accordingly. I have to have mine vaccinated because a) the insurance on both dogs wont pay out (one is with M&S the other Direct Line) and b) they both go into kennels and they wont accept them without vaccination. I have found this thread really interesting though - definite food for thought.


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## tosmod (Dec 28, 2007)

I have a 5 year old dog, who fell ill after his puppy jabs. He had tummy and skin problems for 3 years (we vaccinated yearly). In 2006 he fell very ill shortly after his jabs, (and after the death of my other dog I need to add - not vaccine related) To cut a very long story short - a 4 week stay in the RVC, 18 month recovery and alot of money later (thank goodness for insurance!) he is auto immune as a result of his jabs. I have to be so careful about everything with him, what he eats, any injuries he gets..

My kennels wont take him and it is a big strain - finding someone I trust to look after him isnt easy.

I have also posted in the behaviour section - as a result of this, my other dog, who was a puppy at the time of Benson getting ill couldnt have her shots. Now he is getting better, I took her 6 weeks ago for her shots. Since then, she has started being aggressive towards people, could there be any link there?


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

This is a subject that I intend to pursue so I will keep you posted on my findings.

It seems to me from my research and peoples own experience, that something must be done about these yearly vaccinations. Vets and medical companies are winning hands down, and we as dog owners, are damned if we do vaccinate, and damned if we don't. 

It really is an emotive subject. Please keep your thoughts and experiences coming in on this subject.


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

my zak's had his second puppy injection he will have a booster next years then go onto the table's i got 
like the rest

these are what i use and a lot of others do as well
Ainsworths Products

they do cat ones as well
Ainsworths Products


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