# our dog just bit my wife in the face!



## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

Ok, now I'm stumped.

We have an 18 month old Lab, we work with mostly positive reinforcement training and have had lots of fun.

Tonight we were watching TV on the sofa, he was asleep on her lap. I got up to do some work not 3 feet away and he moved into my spot on the sofa. She was stroking him and eventually leant over to give him a kiss. Something we both do regularly rightly or wrongly with no ill effects. We walk regularly, play constantly and never had a problem.

This kiss was different. I wasn't watching but just heard this loud barking growl as his teeth embedded themselves in her face!

Luckily she's only punctured not torn but now understandably wants rid.

What the hell happened? He wasn't squeezed, pinched or sat upon. I swear I could stand on his head and he'd let me but for her he seems a little less tolerant. On on other occasion something similar happened and he growled at her. I don't know why!

Help desperately needed because she wants him gone! For good!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

If he was asleep she may have startled him. I was bit in the face by our lab when I was 7 or 8. My dad said never startle a sleeping dog, make sure it knows what you are going to do. It never happened again as I learned a valuable lesson. So maybe it was the same thing the dog was surprised....Jill


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

I wondered that but I disturb him all the time. He has also growled at her with intent before now and he was definitely awake.


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

I should probably add, as my theories are heading this way, that I work from home while my wife doesn't.

Either way I think he's up for rehoming in the morning. Before we took on Shadow she was scared of dogs. In her native Mauritius, her only exposure to them were the packs of strays wandering the streets chasing anyone who ventured into them. This one has not helped her opinion and I think our only option is to send him away.

I hate that option as much as the next dog owner, but I think this has brought us very quickly to a 'me or the dog' scenario...


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

If shes had problems with him in the past its doubtful this is going to make her anymore settled with him. If you decide to keep him the anxiety and distrust will only build between them which will only lead to further problems id say. There will always be uncertainty or unpredictability when a dog is supposed to enhance your lives. If it were a choice between a wife and a dog the wife would come first, they are much more useful lol. Sorry to hear about it though. What was your and hers reaction to him - what did you do in response?

Id go for rehoming/rescue though it may be difficult as nobody wants an un-even dog. You will have to inform anyone who buys him or is given to that this has happened so they are fully aware of what they are starting out with. If you dont it is not fair on the new owners.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i = JUST = saw this - i am so sorry! 


>> 18-MO M-Lab... 
...we were watching TV on the sofa, he was asleep on her lap. 
I (moved from the sofa) and he moved into my spot... 
She was stroking him and eventually leant over to... kiss (the dog). 
...we both (kiss him) regularly... with no ill effects. (- snip -) 

This kiss was different. I wasn't watching... 
I... heard this loud barking growl as (he bit) her face!

Luckily she's only punctured not torn... she understandably wants 
(the dog out of the house permanently). 

What the hell happened? He wasn't squeezed, pinched or sat upon. 
I swear I could stand on his head and he'd let me... he seems a little less tolerant (of her). 
On (one) other occasion something similar happened and he growled at her. I don't know why! << 

Q - very specific: 
please ask her if his ear-flap was open + the inner ear was exposed as he lay on her lap, 
or if his ear-flap was down and the underside of the ear was not visible. 

also - Where did she kiss the dog? 
on his nose ahead of his eyes, on the top of his head? 
as specific as possible, please. 
(i have a distinct reason for asking, and do not want to taint the statement; 
i am not trying to be mysterious, just factual.  ) 

finally - 
were his eyes open + he saw her face approaching, or eyes closed, altho he was awake? 

about the other incident - 
What was similar? if possible, What was different? 

thanks in advance, and with my sincere sympathy, 
i hope she is not still in pain! 
--- terry


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

Hi Terry, for the sake of everyone you now have more information than the board. She's luckily not in any more pain, probably just set for some itching for the next couple of days. Bleeding stopped quickly and no serious damage was done. It was dangerously close to her eye but focussing on what happened rather than what could have happened.. we'll move on...

Q - very specific:
please ask her if his ear-flap was open + the inner ear was exposed as he lay on her lap,
or if his ear-flap was down and the underside of the ear was not visible.​
At this stage he was curled next to her with his head on the arm of the chair and his back to the back. She doesn't know which way his ear was but I would guess it was closed. I only say this as I have an obsession with flicking it down when it's up because he looks silly so tend to notice. But I can't promise this as fact.

also - Where did she kiss the dog?
on his nose ahead of his eyes, on the top of his head?
as specific as possible, please.
(i have a distinct reason for asking, and do not want to taint the statement;
i am not trying to be mysterious, just factual. )​The side of his head was up, she went for the head, just behind the eyes. As I type this I can see how dangerously close to the neck this is but will leave it for your answer rather than guessing.

finally -
were his eyes open + he saw her face approaching, or eyes closed, altho he was awake?​Neither of us know this one. I've seen it mentioned in a number of places online but can't confirm.

about the other incident -
What was similar? if possible, What was different?​Other growling incidents were almost identical. I can confirm he was awake on these occasions. The first time she was hugging him and we agreed she may have squeezed a bit too tight. Warning headed, she let go. The second time he was lying on the armchair and he growled as she bent over him.

Overall it seems as if he feels threatened by her, but from the kissing, hugging etc you should see she's the most caring and gentle person I've ever known.

james1 - We're kind of with you on this, but I'm not one to give up a challenge and I certainly don't want to just palm a problem off to someone else. Having said that we're going to have some young relatives over for Christmas and I am not having this happening again!

Which is a shame, we've had so much fun together, he's normally so well behaved. We've worked through lots of training and tricks, got through fireworks without a hitch. Even able to perform some tricks with hand motions alone. I love this guy... I also love my wife's face... probably moreso... I hate decisions like this, I've left it up to her and will honour her decision.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

slick, thank U so much for the answers! 
i know this has been horrible, and i appreciate the details.

i will go thru the items one by one - 
>> (was) his ear-flap... open + the inner ear... exposed as he lay on her lap,
or (was) his ear-flap... down and the underside of the ear... not visible?

At this stage he was curled next to her with his head on the arm of the chair and his back to the back. 
_i am trying to picture this, she is on the sofa beside the dog, his head is on the arm + his spine toward the back of the sofa... 
so his legs / feet are toward the front-edge. does this put his butt toward her? and his head further away? _

She doesn't know which way his ear was but I would guess it was closed. I only say this as I have an obsession with flicking it down when it's up because he looks silly so tend to notice. But I can't promise this as fact.
_OK, not sure, got it! :thumbup1:_

also - Where did she kiss the dog?
on his nose ahead of his eyes, on the top of his head?
as specific as possible, please.
(i have a distinct reason for asking, and do not want to taint the statement;
i am not trying to be mysterious, just factual. )

The side of his head was up, she went for the head, just behind the eyes. As I type this I can see how dangerously close to the neck this is but will leave it for your answer rather than guessing. 
_*Bingo! there is a BITE-reflex to *breath* hitting the ear - also, looming is a threat gesture, and an invasion of personal space, so approaching a dog frontally at their level, or even squatting slightly, is less threatening. there are several factors here, all these are Human-type affectionate gestures -- dogs sadly do not feel the same way about them! *_

finally -
were his eyes open + he saw her face approaching, or eyes closed, altho he was awake?

Neither of us know this one. I've seen it mentioned in a number of places online but can't confirm. 
_OK, not sure, got it. _

about the other incident -
What was similar? if possible, What was different?

Other growling incidents were almost identical. I can confirm he was awake on these occasions. The first time she was hugging him and we agreed she may have squeezed a bit too tight. Warning headed, she let go. The second time he was lying on the armchair and he growled as she bent over him. 
*Bingo! this is a definite pattern, the dog perceives her as being really invasive, persistent and rude - he has warned her several times, and she just keeps on doing these puppy-like overly-invasive behaviors. 
hugging is not a dog-thing, it is a human-thing; dogs perceive it as restraint, and specifically it resembles *mounting* to a dog, which can just as easily NOT be about sex, but about status, control, and pushy behavior.

looming, as in bending-over, is also a bossy and scary thing to do... 
**particularly** when the loom-ee is lying DOWN, as they cannot get away without getting-up, which entails getting up UNDER the loom-er... thus *increasing* the social-tension....
and especially when the loom-ee is caught with their back to a wall or other object - they are stuck there, and must come FORWARD into Ur space to escape. 
so one easy way to move the loom-er the H*** outta the way, and eliminate the perceived threat / bossiness / trapped feeling, is to BITE the person - i here include any species - and *they* move away, allowing the dog to escape the cul-de-sac, or alleviating the social-pressure. 
Does that make sense?*

Overall it seems as if he feels threatened by her, but from the kissing, hugging etc you should see she's the most caring and gentle person I've ever known.

_i am very sorry to say it, but altho gentleness is something dogs do appreciate, hugging and kissing, many dogs do not - they are strange, entail social pressure in ways alien to dogs, and can be disastrously misinterpreted, as i believe they were here. this was a sort of final, desperate act by the dog -- he keeps saying, Back off, U are making me really nervous, and she keeps ignoring his statements. 
whether this had any aspect of a reflex-bite, i do not know - 
a LOT of kids, especially toddlers, get facial-bites when they lean into the dog or hug the dog around the neck - their fave-place, as they cannot encompass the torso of a medium-and-larger dog, but they can wrap arms around their necks! - and they also have an unfortunate habit of MOUTH-breathing, U know how young children do that? 
so they get in close, blow into/across the dogs ear, and WHAM - bite, which is often a pulled-punch. 
the dog did not bite of their own free will, in a reflex-bite - it is no more a deliberate choice than is our own snatching of a hand from a hot surface, that does not even get to the brain, the Spinal-Cord reacts to the hazard, and snatches our hands away before our brains have a chance to process the incoming data of heat + burn. 
however, AFTER the reflex is provoked, the dog DOES have some conscious control - they cannot stop the bite, but they can reduce the intensity. these are the single-tooth or a few teeth scratches or shallow divots or nicks that many parents absolutely freak-out over. 

WARNING - GRAPHIC IMAGE
altho i am sure Yolina was terrified when he bit her, and VERY upset and frightened, he actually *did* restrain his bite. she had 3 punctures about 6 to 8-inches apart; those would have been his canine-teeth, the 2 under her lip most-likely his lower-k9s, the single puncture above his near-side upper-k9 tooth. 
had he **intended** to fully bite with pressure, she would have had her cheek detached as he closed his mouth. 
IOW - he would probably have exposed her teeth thru her open-cheek, as a result of the full-mouth bite. 
dogs will bite pups in the face to punish social-infractions, but a bite that leaves not even a bruise on a pups bony foreface, with their securely-attached skin, that same bite on a toddler can mean plastic-surgery. human faces are like Mr Potato-Head, they have detachable parts - brows, lips, cheeks,, etc; and toddlers and infants faces have thin skin, covering soft, fatty tissue.

i believe that with the help of a local pos-R trainer or behaviorist, and using more dog-appropriate body-language, and *not* approaching the dog when he is cornered, or looming, or hugging, etc, --- Yolina could make friends again with him. 
however, that is a decision only she can make.

in the USA, in some states, it is illegal to sell, give-away, or otherwise re-home a dog with a bite-history, even WITH a full behavioral history - IOW the original owner makes full disclosure of every incident - and even if the buyer / adopter / rescue **acknowledges** that info, and signs a sworn statement taking responsibility for the dogs future behavior, and holding the former owner free of liability (called a quit-claim legally), the former owner can still be criminally charged, if at some time in the future - YEARS later, even - that dog bites someone. :frown2:
this is true even if the former-owner has had no control whatever over the dogs care, never saw or heard from the new owners, no contact. 
it sounds bizarre, and IMO it is bizarre, but USA-dog-law is weird.

i have no idea what the liability would be in the UK.

i hope this was of some help. 
all my best, 
--- terry

_


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Seriously James I do wander if you main reason for posting is to wind people up? So with that in mind I'll not comment on your suggestions to rehome, which is a death sentence to the dog because NO good rescue will take a dog that has bitten he will be PTS instantly. 

This matter is beyond a few lines on a forum you need to get yourself a PROFESSIONAL behaviourist to help out, there is obviously more the dogs behaviour than being startled while asleep (or where your wife kissed him or breathed on him????). Contact your vet and ask for recommendations, then ask those behaviourists for references..if they are good they won't mind you speaking to previous clients to find out their opinions. In the mean time you need to take a step back from the dog, try to loosen the ties he has to you a little and obviously ensure at all times you are both aware of his behaviour. Also I'd recommend a complete health check from your vet to rule out and medical reason's for his behavious. Good luck I'm sure it's something and nothing and can be sorted out without resorting to extreame measures.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Brilliant posts from Leashedforlife as usual.

So Slick basically the dog has told you several times that it doesn't like being hugged/loomed over/kissed, but your wife still insists on doing it?

I'd rehome your wife if I were you 

Seriously - sorry she's been hurt but I think talk of rehoming before you've even tried to address the issue is drastic to say the least.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I agree with JSR but i would also get him off the sofa incase he has become over attatched to his "place" on it.

I am not totally into the whole "pack" thing and my dog is allowed on the sofa but he wouldn't be if he ever growled at me or anyone else in the family whilst on there.

Also this might be obvious but please ensure that children do not approach the dog at all while you are working through his issues (and beyond really). Your dog will seem "safe" to most parents being a Lab and children and toddlers don't understand personal space and are unpredictable. Either muzzle him when out (nothing sais "stay away" to a parent quite like a muzzle) or ensure you pre warn approaching families (be rude if you have to as some people are really quite stupid when it comes to allowing children to pet strange dogs).

I hope you can find a solution


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Sorry I havent read everyones replies - havent got time - but I'd say you need to get a behaviourist in to look at the situation. Maybe boundaries need to be set and re-enforced - like not being on the furniture etc etc. Obviously cant comment further cos I'm not a behaviourist nor have I met the dog. 
I wouldnt dream of rehoming a dog that has bitten without finding out why it has - what if it goes on to bite someone more severely - could you and your wife live with the knowledge that you allowed it to happen??
Please get the help you need and dont give up on the dog yet


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## xxsarahpopsxx (Sep 30, 2009)

Hi so sorry to hear what happened. I can't really advise but we were in a similar situation. My dog can be very grumpy at night and I can do anything I want to her, yet for a while, if my boyfriend went to give her a cuddle she would growl. He stopped doing it for a while and built up a lot of trust with her and took a lot more duties for her on ie walking her on his own, feeding etc and now she is a lot more tolerant towards him. 
Just thought you may like to know 

Hope you get something worked out


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## Wilfredo (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi

First off all sorry that your wife got bit, and I hope that it heals quickly and doesnt scar  I hope what is written below is taken in the right spirit as it is meant that way.

As far as you critter, I think xxsarahpopsxx makes a great point, different people can get away with different things with their dogs. Just because one of you can wake him up while sleeping and get no reaction it doesn't mean that the other will get the same response. If you wife is scared of dogs she will be sending out singnals that your dog will pick up on which will make him feel nervous around her (I know the problem as my wifes family are from Hong Kong and were very standoffish about dogs before they got one of their own). It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation, once already scared of a dog, you then need to be confident to get them to be able to behave well with you... how does that work.... I say fake it enough (that you are confident) and eventually you just will be....

I know it was a big shock and not a good place to get bit, but would you have had such a big reaction if she had been caught on the arm, which would have happend if she haddnt presented her head as the closest point to the dog. I know NO bite is good or even acceptable but I ask the question to try and give some perspective to make a rational decision on the future of the dog.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Hi, hope your wife is feeling better.. You have had good advise. And a very good reading from Leashedforlife! Good post.

A growl is a warning as if to say I don't like this, unfortunately it was ignored; your wife didn't know obviously how to read that. Many say if your dog growls at you count yourself fortunate your dog is telling you!!

Ultimately it is easy to put comments like, re-home the wife instead of the dog, but at the end of the day it is your decision. If your wife is feeling very scared of your dog and you want to keep him then you need to seek a behaviorist which can *help her* to reacquaint with him. I don't think you have a problem with your dog being vicious, consider his age as well.

I really hope it all works out for you guys. 
My dog is a darling and never even growled at us, not even when in pain, but sometimes when asleep he growls and wolf, obviously dreaming, I always make sure he gets plenty space around, better safe then sorry. 
Think of it as you having a bad dream and punching someone, if your wife tried to wake you you would most likely punch her in reflex...


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## Spaniel mad (Jul 17, 2009)

My mums lab snapped at my pup a few months ago. Something she has never ever done before. we took her to the vets and turned out she had an ulcer in her mouth. After some treatment this was cleared up really quick and she is back to her old self so maybe take him to the vets for a check up


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

very sorry what happened xxx

Great reply from leashed for life. YOu are insprationally.

Cant add anymore, but if it was out of character it maybe just a one off....how did he act after, out of interest.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I've just read this through from the start, and my first thought the bite was caused by being loomed over when he was sleeping/dozing/relaxing. Hugging and kissing are human ways to show affection. Dogs can learn to accept them, but they are alien to dog language and can be interpreted as having a different meaning from what we intend. As the more intelligent species, we should express ourselves to our dogs in their language as far as possible. There's an old phrase we can take to heart. It's 'let sleeping dogs lie'.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> I've just read this through from the start, and my first thought the bite was caused by being loomed over when he was sleeping/dozing/relaxing. Hugging and kissing are human ways to show affection. Dogs can learn to accept them, but they are alien to dog language and can be interpreted as having a different meaning from what we intend. As the more intelligent species, we should express ourselves to our dogs in their language as far as possible. There's an old phrase we can take to heart. It's 'let sleeping dogs lie'.


I agree with that, when max is awake he loves kisses on the neck....it makes him go all cabbaged and dopey, but if i do it when he is asleep he can growl....but then, when he darts upstairs int he morning and slobbers all over me whislt in bed sleeping , i have the same reaction lol


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

JSR said:


> Seriously James I do wander if you main reason for posting is to wind people up? So with that in mind I'll not comment on your suggestions to rehome, which is a death sentence to the dog because NO good rescue will take a dog that has bitten he will be PTS instantly.
> 
> This matter is beyond a few lines on a forum you need to get yourself a PROFESSIONAL behaviourist to help out, there is obviously more the dogs behaviour than being startled while asleep (or where your wife kissed him or breathed on him????). Contact your vet and ask for recommendations, then ask those behaviourists for references..if they are good they won't mind you speaking to previous clients to find out their opinions. In the mean time you need to take a step back from the dog, try to loosen the ties he has to you a little and obviously ensure at all times you are both aware of his behaviour. Also I'd recommend a complete health check from your vet to rule out and medical reason's for his behavious. Good luck I'm sure it's something and nothing and can be sorted out without resorting to extreame measures.


This isnt the first time it has given warning or had a reflex for no reason. Personally I value human life more than animal so if the dog is dangerous / unpredictable then maybe it does need putting to sleep. There is nothing wrong with that.

I think there are too many people that would like to wrap things up in cotton wool and pretend everything is ok when infact you have the potential for a bigger attack sometime in the future.

The important bit here is that it has only ever showed agression to the woman, it would be interesting to know if it would have done the same thing to the guy and maybe he should try it to see. The dog sees some kind of problem with the woman and I wouldnt not risk this in a family environment. If it means putting it to sleep so be it.

Your entitled to your opinion, im entitled to mine. A behaviourist will never EVER get the instincts out of a dog - it is therefore only managing behaviour - which means there is a risk of it happening again which I wouldnt do.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

sorry about your wife getting bitten, hopefully it will heal with no lasting effects mentally or physically, I think you have been given some good information, one thing I might point out apart from the ones already mentioned, if your wife was leaning over the dog she "may" have unknowingly leant on the dogs joints/squashed him, if this happened, it may have cause a sharp sudden pain and the dog reacted, I think we have all at some point sprawled on the sofa with our legs at the wrong angle and a child or in fact a dog has decided to climb up onto us for a cuddle, and their weight has pressed on a joint, we can say Ouch get off your foot/elbow/heel/ is sticking in me, the dog cant do that and its quite possible this was no more than the dog having a sudden pain and your wife was the one causeing it? sadly a dog going into rescue that has bitten in this day and age has little chance of being rehomed, I would probably see a dog behaviourist if I could and have your wife involved in any dealings with the dog, if you have visitors coming with children and you are concerned, then put the dog behind a baby/dog gate and anly allow the children to pet the dogs in a controlled manner undersupervision, til you get to the bottom of this.

Mo


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

james1 said:


> This isnt the first time it has given warning or had a reflex for no reason. Personally I value human life more than animal so if the dog is dangerous / unpredictable then maybe it does need putting to sleep. There is nothing wrong with that.


But surely it is not black and white, there could be a number of reasons why the dog snapped, there may be an explanation and surely this should be looked into further before going straight down this route..? We can't say the dog gave this reflex for no reason as we weren't there and don't really know the ins and outs.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I wonder how many of those that advocate PTS for infringments when there is a possibility of preventing further incidents, by getting help and advice, and working on the problem have actually been with a dog, totally stressed out, not knowing whats going on or why its on that table, and then watch the lights go out of that dogs eyes. PTS IMO is the VERY LAST OPTION, when all else fails.

Mo


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

james1 said:


> A behaviourist will never EVER get the instincts out of a dog - it is therefore only managing behaviour - which means there is a risk of it happening again which I wouldnt do.


Oh dear I better go home and PTS the 3 dogs I've 'managed' then. 

You are a very lucky person to have not come across a problem as such with your family pet (or should I say the pet is very lucky to have not come across you and your needle happy hand) because I'm sure if you did you'd fight a little harder to understand the why before resorting to such a drastic and quiet frankly ignorant response.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

All dogs have instincts that we have to modify to be able to live with them James - thats called DOMESTICATION


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## Katie1989 (Sep 30, 2009)

i also think your wife may have starteled him somthing simular happend with our rescue dog. She hasnt got a bad bone in her body you can do anything to her and she'll just sit there and let you but she was once asleep and my step-dad trickeld her with his foot and she went for him luckly he moved in time. Maybe your dog was having a nightmare and when your wife kissed him he thought it was somthing from the nightmare coming for him in real life ?


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2009)

slicksps said:


> Ok, now I'm stumped.
> 
> We have an 18 month old Lab, we work with mostly positive reinforcement training and have had lots of fun.
> 
> ...


It could be that your lab believes himself to be a higher pack member than your wife...if she spends less time with him (with you working at home) and she is already insecure generally with dogs it could well be than your wife has not ascertained herself enough as a pack leader....
Does she feed him? does she walk him? how does he behave in both instances? Does he respond her commands? Does he make way for her when necessary (for space on the sofa for instance)?
On what occasions did he growl to her in the past? Were you around to correct this behaviour?
If your dog believes himself to have a higher status than your wife it could "justify" him not tolerating certain "invasions" of his private space when it is her...

xx


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I blow in my dog's ears all the time because I like watching them rub their paw on their face as a laugh and they don't bite me. They walk off if they get miffed but I have only done it once to that point which is usually after 20 blows. Yes, I tease my dogs sometimes yet they show me no malice. I nuzzle my face on their necks and they remain restfull with their eyes closed and don't even flinch.

What about when vets take a look in my dog's ear and they breath at the same time my dogs have never bitten them or even growled at them.

When my dogs give each other the good once over and are sniffing and blowing, they sometimes lift the other's ear with their nose and get stuck in yet they don't move and nothing happens.

I agree that not all dogs like hugs and a human draped all over them but if the dog has any respect for you it will get up and walk away yet when people say that they can do what they want to the dog and the dog will be fine with it, clears out the theory that the dog reacts badly to hugs and human type affection becasue they accept it from some family/pack members and not others. Dogs only make exceptions for things and that are things that are decided by the leader. Not a master, a leader - massive difference.

The way I see it is:

Slicksps - You are the leader you can do what you want to the dog becasue he trusts you imlplicitly. You will behave differnetly to the dog than your wife in various ways. If you work from home you will no doubt be walking from room to room and the dog will see this but when you go to the room where your dog is and you have stuff to do the dog isn't paid any attention becasue you get on with what you have to do. Only when you are ready does the dog get affection so that is all done on your terms. When things are done on your terms who's in charge?

The dog - The dog knows it is not the leader but still doesn;t want to be at the bottom of the pecking order becasue it is treated differently by your wife. It is treated a pack member by your wife and as such he will treat her as a pack member. All the research int he world shows then when a pack come together the leader pays no attention to anyone and in return the members pay no attention to them. Only when they are ready for attention do they request it or invite it through eye contact. The rest of the pack members will greet and confirm relationships and most inportantly reinforce the hierachy in the pack under the leader. Don't belive me? Go watch some fox hounds. They are the closest domesticated pack to a wolf pack. 

Your wife - Hope she's ok now by the way. Your wife will behave completley differently to you. When she comes home from work she wants nothing more than to be with the things that bring her the most joy - you and the dog. For this reason she may come in the house and see the dog first as you might be upstairs working etc and give the dog immediate attention. This automatically puts her lower.

Now, if he has growled at her previously then yes he has challenged her to try and do what she was trying to do because he feels he has authority over to challenge her actions if he disagrees with them. Moving on from this to the incident the leader (you) have left your seat - this could be any seat you choose it doesn't matter - the dog has moved into your seat becasue it is the prime place the place where the leader sits. Your wife has then leaned over to show human type affection but he may have read this as a direct challenge to were he is sat and as such has taken the choice to snap to let your wife know that he is sitting there and he won't tollerate a challenge from her.

It goes along the same principle as why dogs growl and carry on if you go near their food if they do not respect you or trust you as a figure of authority.

If your wife came home and even just re-entered a room where the dog was after nipping out to make a cuppa, ignored the dog completely with zero communication including eye contact for five minutes, if the dog came to her for attention in this time she ignore it or if it came within her ersonal space she blocked the dog's approach with an arm or a hand until the dog took the hint and when she is ready and the dog is settled called the dog over for affection then the interactions will be on her terms. If the dog automatically jumps up on her lap for affection then who's terms is that on and who is the one callign the shots? The dog. If the dog jumped up and then got placed back ont he floor each time until it settled and realised it doesn't have the autoimatic right to be there and then your wife invited it up, who's terms is it on then? Your wife's.

The dog bit becasue it felt it was being challenged, it had been challenged before and the warnings had either worked making it more powerful in the pack or had not been trained out of him that it isn't acceptable to challenge the human members of the pack as it doesn't challenge you - the leader. Your wife is seen as a pack member and not a leader by the dog.

A lot of people don't believe the pack theory applies to domestic dogs and methods have changed over the last hundred years blagh blah blah but the fact remains that the dog is still a pack animal, still has pack insincts and still act on those instincts.

You might not think that your dog doesn't see your family as a pack but I assure you it does. Just becasue you allow your dog to sleep on your bed, eat off your plate, sleep on the sofa or whatever it is that makes people say "You shouldn't do that" is absolutely fine because it is your house, your pack and your rules and as long as the dog knows the rules that you set and follows them NATURALLY makes you the pack leader in the dog's eyes.

Simple mistake, easy to miss the warning signs and laugh them off, simple to move on and simple to retrain. No need to rehome the dog or get rid of it because if you get another dog and your wife is again seen as a pack member then the same thing is going to happen all over again. Regardless of breed, size, colour or sex they are all dogs and they all have the same basic instincts.

See a behaviourist and you will have the most devoted and loving dog your both wanted.

I bet he's not lunged for your wife since, growled when she enters the room but is still wagging his tail and wanting to say "Hi". He's not a horrible blood thursty savage beast. He was just acting naturally and unfortunately it got to the point where he had to take things too far in our minds but to him he was getting his point across. My dogs bite eachother all the time if they fight over who sleeps ont he bed, who has the chew or if they challenge each other.

I hope your wife makes a full recovery both physically and mentally and can see the logic behind what happened and forgive and forget exactly like your dog did the exact moment after it happened.


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## Pets Paws (Dec 6, 2008)

Dogs live in the now they do not think things thro, My Nell was very unpredictable, she DID NOT like kisses and she told me often enough, but she was my sole mate for 12yrs not once did I consider rehoming her due to her animal instincts. 
All you need to do is get to know your dog better and then you both know were you stand, wife included. 

You have to take the good with the bad when pets are in your life.
its your responsibility don't palm it of to someone else.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

james1 said:


> This isnt the first time it has given warning or had a reflex for no reason. Personally I value human life more than animal so if the dog is dangerous / unpredictable then maybe it does need putting to sleep. There is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> I think there are too many people that would like to wrap things up in cotton wool and pretend everything is ok when infact you have the potential for a bigger attack sometime in the future.
> 
> ...


"A reflex for no reason" - Nothing happens for no reason or randomly in this world and it never will. No matter how strange the reason or how much you have to think outside the box to find the reason for something happening there will be an underlying reason. A dog may react to a certain smell, certain sounds, certain brightness and contrasts and even react to certain atmospheric pressures i.e. an impending thunderstorm. It is all black nad white when you get to the solution but you have to get in amongst the grey to sort it out sometimes.

A dog has a very simple set of rules that it lives by and any behaviourist will know these and be able to come up with possible causes and then through controlled trial and error find the actual issue and the reason why it happens in order to bring the dog back to where it wants to be. No dog bites becasue it likes it because if a dog has to fight or bite it will do so as a last resort because if it has to fight or bite it has to face the consequnces which could cause the dog injury or even result in it's death.

Given a choice the dog will do one of three things if it feels threatened or challenged:

Firstly it will run away from the perceived threat and not risk a face to face confrontation, but if you were the one that was looked as a leader you would have dealt with that threat long before the dog felt it had to run for its life.

Secondly if it is unable to run away i.e. on a leash it will freeze in the hope that by showing submissive body postures no harm will come to it which is why some dogs lie down or drop their head and tails when another dog comes over to you when you have yours on a leash. It is not sure about the other dog's intent. Basically the dog is saying what the character in the film says when they are being attacked by something "Please don't hurt me, please don't hurt me!".

Finally if the dog is backed into a corner or left no choice it will be forced to defend itself and the best form of defense is attack.

Before any of this happens you will see changes in your dog's body posture though. They aren't hat obvious to begin with but if you observe your dog you will pick up on them.

Some dogs even show conflicting body language so that the front end of the dog says "Hi, I want to be friends" but the back end is saying "I don't quite trust you and you'd better back of a bit" or vice versa. The best thing to do is to pay attention to the threatening end, avoid all contact and give the dog some space allowing it to approach you in its own time.

When my nieces visit they are all over the dogs, throwing things for them, petting them, pulling their ears and carrying on as kids do. They are learning how to behave around them and don;t hang off of their ears so much anymore. That said i trust my dogs 100% to not snap, bite, growl or threaten but I do not trust people who can;t read the signals or force themselves on the dogs so they are always supervised around people and if they growl at soemone that is approaching then as their leader, as their protector who they look to for guidance and security I will ask that person not to go near my dogs ou tof respect that my dogs don't want this person near them right now if ever.


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

Thanks LeashedForLife/Terry,

Definitely the answers I was looking for. Thanks everyone else for confirming or placing good arguments.

My initial thought was that maybe she had leant on his tail or similar. But she denies this being the case. He has never reacted to me with so much as a growl and I'm much more boisterous with him and his hugs (I'm a softy). I've even forcefully picked him up from next door's garden and carried him back mid-squat and he just accepts it. (His recall wasn't so strong then)

I agree with the above, rehoming is a bad idea for so many reasons, but when Yovina has lost her trust and is now fearful, it's not going to be a good living environment for us. Putting him down is out of the question, it was definitely a defensive snap rather than an attack. If he wanted to rip her face off, he could have easily done so. Then this wouldn't be in debate, he would probably be destroyed by the time the ambulance turned up.

We've had a conversation with a couple of people and combined with Terry/Leashedforlife's wonderfully thought out inpue and she's willing to work with me on this. We're making a number of changes and hiring a behaviourist to help us address a couple of other issues. The bedroom and sofa are now out of bounds and some of our other decisions which could confuse him about his place in our family will be addressed.

Oh and I keep forgetting to answer 'how was he after the bite?' He acted completely normally, no growling or snarling. Yovina was no longer leaning over him but was still sitting next to and against him. It must have been a defensive snap for the reasons above. Dogs don't hug, they don't understand what a hug is.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Good for you - well done for taking the advice offered and being willing to work with your boy - I'm sure you're wifes confidence around him has been really knocked and who could blame her, but with time and training, for all of you, I'm really hoping you get a positive outcome. Please stick around and let us know how you get on


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Wonderful news, he's a lucky boy to have such understanding owners. I for one would be extreamly interested to hear how you get on with the new regime and if your behaviourist can get to the root of the problem. Loads of luck, not that you'll need it because you've got what sadly alot of people are lacking...common sense!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Top job and well done to your wife and you for letting bygones be bygones and working towards a better relationship with your dog.

I am sure once the behaviourist give you a few simple steps to follow you will see a massive change in your dog's overall behaviour as it no longer has to think about being in hierachical conflict with your wife and relaxes.

You and your wife are a great example of sitting down and thinking about things before wrtting something off as lost cause :thumbup1: :thumbup1: :thumbup1:


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Wonderful news and well done you for not writing this boy off quickly, good luck with your new regime, and I too would be interested in how things progress.

Mo


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Oblada said:


> It could be that your lab believes himself to be a higher pack member than your wife...if she spends less time with him (with you working at home) and she is already insecure generally with dogs it could well be than your wife has not ascertained herself enough as a pack leader....
> Does she feed him? does she walk him? how does he behave in both instances? Does he respond her commands? Does he make way for her when necessary (for space on the sofa for instance)?
> On what occasions did he growl to her in the past? Were you around to correct this behaviour?
> If your dog believes himself to have a higher status than your wife it could "justify" him not tolerating certain "invasions" of his private space when it is her...
> ...


I thought this too.

Keep him off the sofa for a start. If your wife can bear any involvement, get her to give him is food but only after she has eaten.

I have noticed that some people are better at interpreting a dogs mood and what they should and shouldnt do than others. I havent explained what I mean very well, but what Im trying to say is it is instinctive to many of us how to behave around a dog, and this may well be because there was one in the house when we were kids, or it may just be an individual thing. Its a sort of balance between showing them whose boss (an old fashioned an clumsy phrase my dad would use but Im not keen on) and also knowing about body language, your own and your dogs. This might sound vague, as its something that as I say is instinctive to me but Ive noticed its not to other people, who seem to infringe a dogs personal space or whatever.

Just read the ending, really pleased youre giving it another go, a behaviourist will educate both your dog and your wife which is great! Just whats needed.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Good to hear you are going to give a young chap an honest mistake.

We had some guarding issues with Oscar and he did growl at and nip one of my children when he was about 8 months. 

It would have been easy to get rid of him at that point (bearing in mind children are harder to train than adults how to behave) but with consistent training and being extra careful he has never done it again and is now a 1 year old pudding who i don't worry anymore about round the children than i would any other dog.

Two of the essential thigs we did was

1) We got the child doing alot of basic training with him to establish trust and respect on both sides, I also ensured the children left him alone outside of this training.

2) I studied Oscars body language so i know it inside out. I can spot if he is uncomfortable with a situation before even he realises he is now and remove him or draw his attention elsewhere.

Good Luck.


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi

I have only just caught up with this thread and am so sorry to hear what happened, it really knocks you back when something such as a bite occurs and it genuinely makes you think whether you want the dog or not, especially when on the face, it just makes it so much worse somehow, as if the dog should know not to bite our face!

I know this because 15 years ago I took on a rescue, who had spent the first few months in kennels, one day I picked her up and gave her a cuddle and she turned around and bit me on the nose! Luckily, not too much damage, but it shocked me to the core and I understand how shocked your wife feels.

However, I immediately thought it through and like you found out more about the reasons why and put some general day to day routines in place. I am pleased to say that she never bit again, although had the odd grumble and there were times when I had to re-think my routines and go back to what we used to call 'splat the terrier', not literally, just in control terms, she wasn't allowed to do anything unless she had our permission - do this for two weeks and she was all sweetness and light again. So you can turn the behaviour around with understanding the reasons and motives behind the behaviour.

I am not going to give anymore advice, you have enough, but just to let you know that sitting in her bed now, next to my 5 year old daughter - who is just ready for her bed too, is that little terrier, old now and grey, but has given me so much joy (as well as rosettes for agility). She also set me on the path to my career with dogs and training!

Your dog has been given another chance, good on you and your wife, as it is always so much easier to work on these problems in the existing home than have a dog into kennels. Chances are a rescue, if you tell them the truth, will not rehome a dog that bites. 

Best of luck.

Kate

P.S. From your description of what happened, My money would be on the fact it will all be OK!


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## reddogsX3 (May 18, 2008)

i am not sure if anyone has mentioned it but the reason the dog may react to your wife and not you is that you have stated that before you got shadow your wife was scared of dogs. whilst she may be overcoming her fear dogs are very adept at picking up on the subtlest cues and body language and may be picking up on any underlying fear and tension and that may be why he reacts to her.

good luck with the behaviourist and hope all goes well

wendy


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Hello, 
I've only just caught up with this but I thought I'd put my views on this in.

Firstly, dominance and being the "pack leader" has been mentioned a fair few times in this thread as the potential "cause" for what happened. I think that this view is FAR two simplistic! Dominance/ pack theory was derived and developed after flawed studies on WOLVES at a time when there was very little if not no study or research on canine (dog) behaviour. 
Pack/dominance theory is not even what I'd called reductionist, it's painfully simplistic, to the point that dogs are constantly misdiagnosised and labeled "dominant dogs" because they have displayed some aggression. Pack leader/dominance trainers will claim that, after an incident simular to what the OP and his wife have experienced, they need to ensure that they are the pack leader and that the dog is at the bottom of the pack by "asserting their dominance on them". What they don't realise is that by doing this they are potentially further oppressing the dog and confirming any insecurities that the dog might have. 
Furthermore, when you consider that pack theory was based on flawed WOLF studies, it's credibility is somewhat questioned. Let's face it- your average labrador is VERY different from a WOLF due to thousands of years of selective breeding by man. Lots of further research has been done on wolves and their behaviour, much of which has lead the way to debunking much of dominance theory. (Very recently Karen Pyror did some work with wolves I believe, clicker training them to teach tricks and agility type behaviours... anyway that's not wholely relevant and I don't want to go off on a tangent )
Many dominance trainers will argue that they treat dogs as another dog would. There is one problem with this though. WE AREN'T DOGS! Dogs recognise this and they don't expect us to behave towards them in such ways (not that any human would be able to immaculately or even effectively immitate dog behaviour anyway). We'd just end up confusing them.

I think that in the case that the OP describes, the dog has previously given warning growls, to warn his owners that he is not comfortable with being lent on and kissed in the face. Remember that hugging and kissing are human behaviours, many dog's put up with them but many dogs understandably are not comfortable with being lent over and kissed. 
Anyway these warnings were ignored and finally a bite followed. Not the dog's fault. Not really your wife's fault as it doesn't sound like she was aware that the dog was warning her that he wasn't comfortable. 
To the OP- don't loose faith in your dog. Obviously this needs to be taken seriously and proffessional advise needs to be sought but the reality of the situation is that if your dog hadn't wanted to he could have done a lot more damage. This sounds to me like a defensive snap. The fact that he was lying down sleeping may have meant that not meaning to, your wife startled him and the dog snapped as a result. The "oh it's only you" effect. React first think afterwards type behaviour perhaps? 
You've had some really good advice here and I'm really glad you've decided to stick by your boy and are going to see a behaviourist. TBH I would really advice a positive reinforcement based behaviourist. Dominance methods will not help here and could well just worsen any worries your dog has. 
Incidently I was watching kikopup on youtube's clicker training videos (excellent training videos- if you've not seen them check them out) and she mentions that she always clicks and rewards the dog handling around the face, neck etc, so that in any occasion where the dog is grabbed by the collar or face or wherever, he/she does not react because he/she associates this as a good thing. 
Just a thought...

Oh and behaviourist wise- 
The APDT are excellent. I'm not sure whereabouts you are in the country though? Someone may be able to recommend a decent behaviourist? 
Local Dog Trainers - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK

Hope your wife and the dog are ok. Chin up and keep us updated


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## cpostelwait31 (Aug 5, 2009)

Dangerous dog attacks can never be predicted. Maybe they're just disturbed while sleeping. I want to share a video talking about a dangerous dog attacks. Check out!

YouTube - Dangerous dog attacks fat guy


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> i = JUST = saw this - i am so sorry!
> 
> >> 18-MO M-Lab...
> ...we were watching TV on the sofa, he was asleep on her lap.
> ...


Leashedforlife, I do have to say, I am sure you come up with some really good advice and suggestions. But the way you write your posts is really confusing. Maybe I am the only one, but I give up half way through. Which is a shame because, as I said you prob give great advice.

Hope I haven't offended, and maybe it's just me x


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

lemmsy said:


> Hello,
> I've only just caught up with this but I thought I'd put my views on this in.
> 
> Firstly, dominance and being the "pack leader" has been mentioned a fair few times in this thread as the potential "cause" for what happened. I think that this view is FAR two simplistic! Dominance/ pack theory was derived and developed after flawed studies on WOLVES at a time when there was very little if not no study or research on canine (dog) behaviour.
> ...


Interesting that the dog went for the weakest member of the pack. The one who is fearful. My opinion was prior to this the pack went, Husband, dog and then wife.

There will always be a social heirachy and if the humans are not at the top of this, then things can happen.

I would say this is a great example of a human owning a dog when they are not confident, fearful etc and the dog believing it is in charge. Hence this behaviour.

I genuinely don't understand how you think that there is no social heirachy with dogs. Most species have a leader at the top the pack. Why are dogs, pack animals, any different?

baffeling :confused5:


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

i have to say some people
just shouldnt have dogs
training training training
for the owner
i take it you now realise allowing the dog your possition wasnt the best plan
or annoying the dog when it is resting:frown2:
that there are good reasons to give the dog a nice comfy bed to relax in 
and that he isnt a human being
or a child(no he isnt a child all you dafties who think dogs and cats are kids)
he is a potentally when not trained dangerous
had he biten me or my 12 year old in the face he would have been delt with in a very harsh maner
ie put in his space and being ignored by me,
and more
for heavens sakes phone your vet tell them what happened and ask for help with training.he will need a specialist cos you obviously dont have a scobby:frown2:
be would be under no illusion that you have a problem:frown2:
as for destroying the dog hows about you rehome it to someone who understands the breed 
and has the intrest to find out the basics about dog keeping.
this isnt a good start to my flu ridden day:shocked:
noogsy xx


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## spiffy (Jun 30, 2009)

noogsy said:


> i have to say some people
> just shouldnt have dogs
> training training training
> for the owner
> ...


If you had read the whole thread you'd have known that the OP is going to give dog training a go. I find it annoying when people have to come into threads and cause trouble. We should be here to help out the guy, not have a go at him.

To the OP: I am sorry to hear your wife was bitten. There is plenty of good advice in this thread. I am happy yo hear you're giving your dog a second chance. Hope we hear an update soon.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

noogsy said:


> i have to say some people
> just shouldnt have dogs
> training training training
> for the owner
> ...


Asking a vet for help with training is pretty pointless, unless you mean ask the vet for a referral to a behaviourist.

Vets know pretty much diddly-squat about training, IME - unless they've studied the subject independently of their medical stuff. Most of them are far too keen to flog you Pet Corrector sprays to bother learning anything worthwhile where training is concerned


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Interesting that the dog went for the weakest member of the pack. The one who is fearful. My opinion was prior to this the pack went, Husband, dog and then wife.
> 
> There will always be a social heirachy and if the humans are not at the top of this, then things can happen.
> 
> ...


The point is, that even though "most species have a leader at the top of the pack", that leader will be of the same species. What Lemmsy is saying - what numerous proper behaviourists/ethologists are saying - is that dogs know that we are not other dogs, so it is pretty pointless pretending to be


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

it is a quandry :mad2:


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

we got help with training through our vet
a dog that bites to the face 
could do the same to a child tomorrow
it is very serious
and the dog may now be put down
poor thing
and you are right
it dosent matter how much training peple get
the may not listen
lets have a look at the training books
and look for the section about sharing the sofa 
with a dog heavens sakes
a bit of common sense is required
and straight talking
noogsy x


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Leashedforlife, I do have to say, I am sure you come up with some really good advice and suggestions. But the way you write your posts is really confusing. Maybe I am the only one, but I give up half way through. Which is a shame because, as I said you prob give great advice.
> 
> Hope I haven't offended, and maybe it's just me x


I have the exact same issue, glad I am not alone....

And I agree as well; some of the things do seem very interesting but I just cant follow the post all the way through sometimes..


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

noogsy said:


> we got help with training through our vet
> a dog that bites to the face
> could do the same to a child tomorrow
> it is very serious
> ...


Dogs do not just attack outof the blue, there is always an underlying factor the same with humans. They report is as an unprovoked attack but it was only unprovoked by the victim. The accused will ahev experienced various factors leading up to the event and the victim was int he wrong place at the wrong time.

This dog is not a dangerous dog and it's not suddely got a taste for huiman blood so turn the horror films off and calm down.

To all of those that read words such as "dominance" and "leader" but somehow always to picture an evil dictator that rules with an iron fist and opresses others through violence, pschological warfare and cruelty, I think you need to re-evaluate your perception fo these words when they are used int he context of dogs.

I am the Alpha to my pack of two cheeky canine friends and they are as happy as a sunflower in summer. I am Alpha because i control the resources they have access to. Before they eat I make them sit and wait but as soon as I release them and they are eating i leave them well alone to eat in piece. If they want to go outside or I think they might need a toilet break then I make them sit and wait. When I relaese them they are free to roam the garden, do their business, have a sniff and see which cats have been through, I might throw them a toy for a bit but when I call them in they come in. If we are going out I wait for them to calm down (the time I havbe to wait is getting shorter) before putting their leads on. They are then told to sit and wait before we leave the house. They are told to sit and wait before invited to get in the car, out of the car and then ont he journey back all the same again. Everytime they are going out, eating, playing etc they are doing so on my terms, when I say. All of the time in between they are free to do what they want which is usually play, rest and explore.
When out on walks they will walk behind me if I ask them to but usually I invite them to walk alongside me or just let them explore and sniff.
Most importantly my dogs want to be with me and show zero fear of me yet I am the Alpha. They ask permission most of the time by looking at me before doing something and wait for me to give the go ahead to make sure I am ok with it. If I don;t want them to do it I will say "No", not shoutit but say it and they stop and wait to see what I will allow them to do instead.
Funnily enough I do the same with my nieces in soem respect when we are out in the big wide world to keep them safe and I was treated the same by my parents when it came to certain things becasue my parents set the rules. My boss sets the rules, the governemtn sets the rules, the shopkeeper sets the rules in his shop etc and it is all to create harmony and understanding so you know what is expected of you to ensure that the pack/family/business/group all knows the rules and who sets them.

Dominance is a strong word for having more patience and showing intent. Going back to my dogs and going for a walk I would say I am dominant over them because I don't heed to their will and want to go for a walk. Instead I wait for them to calm down. I do this becasue a dog wil do soemthing if there is something in it for them. If they get all excited and worked up to go for a walk when I get the leads and I put the leads on and take them out then I am satisfying their requests. But what if i picked the leads up to move them or clean them and the dogs got all excited and then stressed why I didn't take them out, why their requests were not met? I don't want stressed and worked up dogs so instead I wait for them to calm down because it teaches/trains them that overall we don't go out until I say so and you are nice and settled. Why get all worked up and excited because it isn't getting you anywhere and I might just be moving them over here to wash or hang up.
I ignore the dogs when I do this. I don't speak or shout at them. I don't pet or touch them with any replicated dog-bite-shaped hand. I don't even make eye contact with them. Instead I wait for them to work out what they need to do to achieve the desired result. Once they have worked out that if they just relax, calm down and don't demand I put the lead on then they get their requests met. I call it manners, I may call it dominance, others call it something different. I wouldn;t tollerate any kids pulling on my coat if I picked up the car keys from the counter saying "Are we going out? Are we going out? Are we going out? Are we going out? Are we going out?" and i never did that to my parents so I don't expect it from my dogs.

Through doing this I have never had any issues with seperation anxiety which you would get if a dog was the one that callled the shots "Where have they gone? Where have they gone?". Well the rescue did chew things for a few days until the light bulb came on upstairs and now he's no problem at all.

No aggression issues, never been growled at by mine or anyone else's dog, can come home without the "What disaster awaits me!" feeling, can trust them 100% around other people and the vets have no issues with them because why would I take them to someone or allow any harm to come to them if I was their leader?

My dogs know that when there is a knock at the door they bark once and I will then deal with it. Thanks for notifying me guys . My guests are asked not to show any attention to the dogs so that they are not pestered by the dogs and the dogs don't feel threatened by them. Instead the dogs relaise that everything is fine, everything is under control, nobody poses a threat to anyone or is causing any atmosphere other than "All is good with me" - harmony

I could go on with examples but what it boils down to is that my dogs know the rules, they have respect for me and trust me to provide for them and keep them safe. They listen to what I ask of them, they fullfil my requests and want to work for me.

I use methods that are based around four very basic pack instincts, use patience as dominance, allow them to think problems through to get what they want and because of this they respect me as their leader.

Now I don't think my methods of layign down the rules is harsh or based on a defunct theory but I am sure as always there will be people who disagree.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

Great post Hutch, totally agree with you


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Leashedforlife, I do have to say, I am sure you come up with some really good advice and suggestions. But the way you write your posts is really confusing.


Ditto. I for the life of me can't understand what the hell you are saying lol


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

good post hutch
but this dog dosent know his place
he has bit someone on the face
it just shouldnt have happened
and i think there is probably a lot more going on
noogsy


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

noogsy said:


> good post hutch
> but this dog dosent know his place
> he has bit someone on the face
> it just shouldnt have happened
> ...


Noogsy why do your posts come out like that?? I keep feeling like I want to read them as poems


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

we dont even know if its ill bred, it is a lab so should have a good temperement, by all counts it has no respect for the woman, and has been doing this for a long time. Id think also that they would have already sought to train it already though its age may be a factor - the lenght of time its been going on wouldnt support this, and point to other areas


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

Well done on giving him a chance to work through his problems.



slicksps said:


> Other growling incidents were almost identical. I can confirm he was awake on these occasions. The first time she was hugging him and we agreed she may have squeezed a bit too tight. Warning headed, she let go. The second time he was lying on the armchair and he growled as she bent over him.


How were these incidents dealt with at the time? Was he just ignored or did he get told off etc. for growling?


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I already asked this on the first page - didnt get an answer though


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

if my dog bit my face it would be gone


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Dont say that too loudly - youll have a lot of members biting your face off lol


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

james1 said:


> Dont say that too loudly - youll have a lot of members biting your face off lol


they can do what they like a dog that bites its owners face is no good and never will be:mad2:


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Both of Hutch6 posts were very valuable advice. His previous post is also worth re-reading as it said very eloquently what I failed to put into word, about people who cant read the signals from dogs.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> Both of Hutch6 posts were very valuable advice. His previous post is also worth re-reading as it said very eloquently what I failed to put into word, about people who cant read the signals from dogs.


signals or not a dog should never bite its owner


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

What I am saying is that training will only manage behaviour as with any training. If we dont train they make up their own rules. This dog doesnt like the woman and never has for one reason or another - even if the woman is mitigating it. 
The point is it will not get any better so the best option is to rehome it sooner rather than later to a more suitable environment.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

james1 said:


> What I am saying is that training will only manage behaviour as with any training. If we dont train they make up their own rules. This dog doesnt like the woman and never has for one reason or another - even if the woman is mitigating it.
> The point is it will not get any better so the best option is to rehome it sooner rather than later to a more suitable environment.


ye rehome it then it will bite someone else


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

borderer said:


> they can do what they like a dog that bites its owners face is no good and never will be:mad2:


Oh rubbish. That's a huge generalisation and shows a complete lack of understanding of dog behaviour.

EVERY dog has its bite threshold. Just like people, some are more reactive in some situations than others. Depending on the individual dog's triggers, chances are most people never find out what it would take for their dog to bite. It doesn't mean good dogs = never bite, bad dogs = bite. It's just not that simple.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

borderer said:


> signals or not a dog should never bite its owner


I think that needs to read: signals or not a dog should never *have to *bite its owner


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> I think that needs to read: signals or not a dog should never *have to *bite its owner


Indeed, well said.
Otherwise it is blatantly ignoring the fact that dogs are animals first, before being someone's pet.


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## lady_r0gue (Jul 22, 2009)

When I was about 7 or 8 my neighbours relatively old dog nipped my face. It was because I went to kiss him on the top of his head much like I did to my cats and he wasn't expecting it - he didn't live with kids. It scared me and made me cry but I wasn't scared of him after that (it was the only time I ever knew him to be aggressive in any way, our cats terrorised him and he was usually gentle, I never considered him to be a "bad" dog) - I just never tried to kiss him again! 

I would say it would be a good idea for the op's wife to basically ignore the dog, of course she should still take part in taking him for walks, instruct and feed him but maybe hold back on the petting, kissing and eye contact. 

What was the dog's reaction after the nip? I expect your wife shrieked; did he then cower or retreat or was he still aggressive and growling at her? I think that makes a big difference in telling whether the dog has serious behavioural problems or he just had a reflex reaction to what he perceived as an aggressive invasion of his space. I think like a baby or small child young dogs don't always realise their own strength and hearing the "shriek" reaction would teach them that he caused pain, and it especially as you seem to be be quite proactive with your training methods it would certainly be possible to never have this happen again if your wife learned how to act around the dog. I think it would be a shame to give up on him, I believe dogs of any age can be taught new tricks as long as the people can too.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> I think that needs to read: signals or not a dog should never *have to *bite its owner


no a dog should never bite its owner if mine bit me it would be gone


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> The point is, that even though "most species have a leader at the top of the pack", that leader will be of the same species. What Lemmsy is saying - what numerous proper behaviourists/ethologists are saying - is that dogs know that we are not other dogs, so it is pretty pointless pretending to be


Ah colliepoodle, we will never agree....... I don't pretend to be a dog, but I am in charge as is my husband. Failure to be "in charge" or provide "leadership" is disasterous!

ARe you saying that your dog does not see you as it's leader?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Dogs do not just attack outof the blue, there is always an underlying factor the same with humans. They report is as an unprovoked attack but it was only unprovoked by the victim. The accused will ahev experienced various factors leading up to the event and the victim was int he wrong place at the wrong time.
> 
> This dog is not a dangerous dog and it's not suddely got a taste for huiman blood so turn the horror films off and calm down.
> 
> ...


If I could rep you twice I would lol!

Bloody brillant post x


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

james1 said:


> What I am saying is that training will only manage behaviour as with any training. If we dont train they make up their own rules. This dog doesnt like the woman and never has for one reason or another - even if the woman is mitigating it.
> The point is it will not get any better so the best option is to rehome it sooner rather than later to a more suitable environment.


It is not a case of the dog not liking the woman. Dogs don't think like that.

But as I have said, the woman is lower in the pack rank and is being corrected by the dog. Somebody who is bervous or anxious of dogs cannot be a leader. Weakness does not provide good leadership


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

borderer said:


> no a dog should never bite its owner if mine bit me it would be gone


We've taken the point. You would give up on the dog. fine, some people in life are quitters


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Ah colliepoodle, we will never agree....... I don't pretend to be a dog, but I am in charge as is my husband. Failure to be "in charge" or provide "leadership" is disasterous!
> 
> ARe you saying that your dog does not see you as it's leader?


I have no idea what they see me as. I'm not a dog, nor a mind-reader.

I am in charge in the sense that they do what they're told because I've taught them to. They see compliance with cues as a Good Thing. If they see me as anything, I guess it would be as "Source of Good Things".

I just think people bang on about being "in charge", and "leader", and "packs" too much.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> We've taken the point. You would give up on the dog. fine, some people in life are quitters


dog bites me dog is gone no second chance


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> I have no idea what they see me as. I'm not a dog, nor a mind-reader.
> 
> I am in charge in the sense that they do what they're told because I've taught them to. They see compliance with cues as a Good Thing. If they see me as anything, I guess it would be as "Source of Good Things".
> 
> I just think people bang on about being "in charge", and "leader", and "packs" too much.


Being in charge makes you the leader. Why is being in charge or being their leader such a bad thing? It's good that your dogs look to you like that and trust you. You make them feel safe and you provide everything they need. This is what any decent leader should do.

That is all I am trying to say.

You say you are a source of good things, how about when you need to tell them "no" or "leave it". This does not fit your description. But it is what a leader would do.......

Come on colliepoodle, stop being so obstinate! lol


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

To OP

Just a thought, have you had the dog checked out by the vets?
we had a dog many years previous, and it turned vicious on most of us, it was a shame,. he would bite and look ashamed of himslef after...it was like he had no control.
He changed dramatically. 
Dont want to sound all doom and gloom.
It turned out the vet beleived, he has some type of tumour on his brain, it was inoperable, so buster had to be put to sleep.

I wish you all the luck in the world. Hope you can get to the bottom of it.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

To the OP i think that the problem is that your dog does not feel as comfortable with your wife as he does with you. you mentioned that she was scared of dogs before so she was probably never fully comfortable around him. Dog can sense unease but not what has caused that feeling which can be very unnearving for them. he probably felt very nervous around her and more then likely slightly threatened on occassion leading to the growling and bad behaviour. It would have been beneficial for both your wife and the dog to spend time together and trust building before things escalated but rememeber it is never too late, with the right training and exercises a dog can be anyones best friend.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> I have no idea what they see me as. I'm not a dog, nor a mind-reader.
> 
> I am in charge in the sense that they do what they're told because I've taught them to. They see compliance with cues as a Good Thing. If they see me as anything, I guess it would be as "Source of Good Things".
> 
> I just think people bang on about being "in charge", and "leader", and "packs" too much.


agreed some people think they can read dogs minds they tell us what dogs think and what the dont think and what we should think.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> I have no idea what they see me as. I'm not a dog, nor a mind-reader.
> 
> I am in charge in the sense that they do what they're told because I've taught them to. They see compliance with cues as a Good Thing. If they see me as anything, I guess it would be as "Source of Good Things".
> 
> I just think people bang on about being "in charge", and "leader", and "packs" too much.


agree. i prefer to think of my dogs as part of a family rather then a pack. no "leaders" as such just beings that co operate and live together.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Being in charge makes you the leader. Why is being in charge or being their leader such a bad thing? It's good that your dogs look to you like that and trust you. You make them feel safe and you provide everything they need. This is what any decent leader should do.
> 
> That is all I am trying to say.
> 
> ...


I tend not to use "no" that much - it's not a command really.

If I use "leave it", then they still see me as a source of good things, since they know that obeying the command will result in praise, or treat, or game. Just like any other command.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> I tend not to use "no" that much - it's not a command really.
> 
> If I use "leave it", then they still see me as a source of good things, since they know that obeying the command will result in praise, or treat, or game. Just like any other command.


good post agree


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> agree. i prefer to think of my dogs as part of a family rather then a pack. no "leaders" as such just beings that co operate and live together.


me too... they look at me to feed love and spoil them....but sercretly, i think they are the leaders, as they have me under there thumb...
I have not been bit, and i dont expect to get bit... just like they dont expect to be smacked. We both can be vocal with each other, and thats fine.

I probley break most the rules, one, that i have very few.....except respect - but at the end of the day i have happy loved freindly animals.

I couldnt care less what tricks they can do etc..etc.. i just care they enjoy my company and i theirs.....


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Hutch6 Your posts are great advice.

We have 5 dogs 4 standard schnauzers and a miniture schnauzer

Standards being very high spirited and willful dogs, just as many breeds are so need firm but fair boundaries, wev never had a problem with ours in the behaviour stakes but wev always follwed the rule that we are in charge and our rules are followed. Dogs are taught to be well mannered and we give no affection unless earned and that may seem mean but its easy to do in as much as dog sits before a stroke

We have never used physical control all our training has been positive reinforcement and ignoreing of bad behaviour. Wev used tone of voice and body language.

All dogs sit and wait for food all 5 eat together and never any problems, they all wait till the other has finished, if one approaches a bowl before this the other will growl if otehr dog persists the growl deepens and there is a slight bearing of teeth, they use thier growls to warn off, its a warning unheeded will in the end turn to a snap, nip or bite, its how they communicate. 

If I go down to a bowl before meal has finished which is rare I would always make sure the dog knew I was coming and I only ever do this if I have a tasty treat to put in the bowl I do this as I need to know they are comfy with me approaching them when they have food. Now this may not be wise but we all have our own ways of training our own dogs. 

I just found Hutch6's posts brillient :thumbup1: and we use this approach and its allowed us to have 5 dogs and at times more in the house as we have looked ater frieinds dogs and at one time had 9 all in together and all the visitors immeditely fell in line with the house rules as they are so set and so well adhered to by our dogs. The owners actually said thier dogs were more well beaved, now Im no expert its just I try to follow the rules where Im in charge but I also love the dogs immensely and will feircely protect and provide for them and they understand this

And having 5 dogs I clearly see there is most definitely a heirachy between them and they often have little tussles but top girl Ella is always there to stamp it out and interestingly how she controls any challenging behaviour between the others is she identifies the trouble maker very quickly and will either put her paw on the others neck or she will tower over the other dog and place her chin over the others neck. So the kiss coming down on to the neck of an unexpetant dog by a person he already feels is below him could have scared him so could have been fear aggression. Iv read the thread but must have missed this, was there a growl before the bite 

We did have a dog once years ago who growled and bit me, we worked along the same theory that Hutch6 has stated and the dog turned in to a brillient dog, he was just confused as my behavour was not one he recognised, as someone whod never had to think about dog behaviour I had no idea about the proper doggy language and how best to behave with a dog, but learnt and the dog was great in the end.

Iv rambled a bit here but So glad the poster of the thread is giving the young dog a chance would love to be kept updated to see how the dog gets along

Best wishes to your wife its not nice being bitten by a dog thats your own but Im sure by changeing how she responds to him all will get better

To just re home at this stage would be a knee jerk reaction although if you had children youd need to take a more balanced look at it and see if you could keep the child and dog seperate when no adult was around

Good luck :thumbup1:


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> I have no idea what they see me as. I'm not a dog, nor a mind-reader.
> 
> I am in charge in the sense that they do what they're told because I've taught them to. They see compliance with cues as a Good Thing. If they see me as anything, I guess it would be as "Source of Good Things".
> 
> I just think people bang on about being "in charge", and "leader", and "packs" too much.


Call it a role model then.

I am the role model to my dogs because I set the rules that they must follow or they dont get what they want. As I have stated earlier a dog does something because there is something in it for the dog be it a treat or a Good dog!. Without rules comes chaos.

I am also not a deer but if I see a deer I can tell if that deer is relaxed, alert or fearful. Here comes a good one. My mate's collie is not a sheep yet it knows just how much pressure to put on them or when to back off to get them to move or to stop without anyone telling it. How do we know all this without being these species? Body language. Every animal can read it loud and clear. When you see a bunch of rabbits and you creep to near them you will move slowly until you are close to them. They can see you like a sore thumb if they can see a buzzard hundreds of feet up in the air but when you try and get that little bit closer they bolt. You put too much pressure on them. When they are eating they aren't fussed about you. You are in the green safety zone according to them. When they are alert you are in their amber zone "What are you going to next?" zone. When they bolt you crossed the fine line from the amber to the red zone. My anatomy might not be exactly the same as Dillons but if you place a frisbee on the floor between us and he goes for it all I have to do is put my weight slightly forward on the balls of my feet and he will put his weight on his back legs. If I move my weight back towards my heels he will move his weight forward and even start creeping towards the frisbee. I have played this game with him loads of times as it's a good laugh but if you were to look at it you wouldn't immediately be able to tell how I am getting him to do this because my weight shifting is so slight to people who rely on verbal communication but to Dillon it is like a great big billboard.
If I point behind me he will go behind me.
If I put my hand down by side he will lie down.
If I point left he will run left etc etc etc.

He knows I am not a dog, he knows I look nothing like a dog yet if i give him clear and simple gestures with my body he knows what it means. If it is something new he will look at it a bit funny and then try his best to work it out. If he doesn't then i take him through it step by step and praise him when he gets each step right and then throw him a party when he gets the whole thing in one go. If an Inuit stood without moving and said something to me every time I did a particular thing I wouldnt have a clue what they were on about. If they moved their weight backwards or forwards I might have an idea. If they nodded I would know I was doing something right. If they gestured I would know even better. If they smiled and clapped and looked happy then I would know that every time they said that sound I had to do that task. It's how children learn words.
"But that's learning from a human" you might say. Ok. How do I know that when Dillon gets off his bed, stops in front of me and then stands by the patio doors he wants to go to the toilet yet if he gets up and walks straight there he is just looking outside? I know this because I used to open the door every time, sometimes he went out and other times he would just stand there but then I made an effort to see what the difference was and that's when I noticed the little stop he does.

We only spend a very small amount of time watching our dogs body language and trying to figure it out because we know what the rules are and we know how to fit in. Your dog is trying to read you 24/7 if you are confusing it by being inconsistent which ends up stressing the dog out or it being "disobedient" and developing issues.

If you call the shots and your dog agrees then you are the role model. If you dog persistently misbehaves, shows any form of telling you off (growling at you) or just doesn't know what you expect of it then you are living by the rules you dog sets:

Don't come near me when I am eating.
If I have anything in my mouth then it is mine.
When we go out then I will pull on the lead because I want to do what I want to do.
If I want to run off and see something then I will.
I'll jump about, knock into things, cause a mess and do what i want in this room because its my room to do what I want.
If you leave I worry about because I don't want you out there on your own because you need me there.

If any of these sound familiar to anyone then I am sorry to say you are going to have to work at turning these into your favour but it only requires four simple steps and a bit of belief that dogs have pack instincts, they do need a role-model and you want to be elected by your dog to be that role-model.

.


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

GillyR said:


> me too... they look at me to feed love and spoil them....but sercretly, i think they are the leaders, as they have me under there thumb...
> I have not been bit, and i dont expect to get bit... just like they dont expect to be smacked. We both can be vocal with each other, and thats fine.
> 
> I probley break most the rules, one, that i have very few.....except respect - but at the end of the day i have happy loved freindly animals.
> ...


You hold the most beneficial rule close to you Respect and I bet you dont even realise it but youv probably communicated to your dogs that your a strong leader and they feel safe and secure with you at the top.

Some dogs dont need much in the way of this being reinforced but you do get dogs that will test the system so to speak as there arent many Natural Alpha dogs born, Im not able to explain this in full, hopefully maybe Hutch6 or experts on here can, its something that was told to me and most dogs are happy to live without the need to be in charge but when you have an alpha dog this is where training and dog behaviour becomes important as they want to be in charge or think they do . I think the Alpha dogs in the wild are the only dogs to breed and I also know there is much controversy over whether we should still be useing the phrase Alpha dog so this post is probably going to be balsted


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

I really like the way you put this Hutch6 Role Model is a far nicer way than leader To put things :thumbup1:


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Call it a role model then.
> 
> I am the role model to my dogs because I set the rules that they must follow or they dont get what they want. As I have stated earlier a dog does something because there is something in it for the dog be it a treat or a Good dog!. Without rules comes chaos.
> 
> ...


Quite agree that a creature from one species is capable of reading the body language of some other species. Some aspects of body language are pretty universal.

Not all, though. Look how often Cesar Millan mistakes a totally terrified, frozen dog for being "calm and submissive" LOL!


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

borderer said:


> dog bites me dog is gone no second chance


yeah yeah got it.
Hoping for your dog that it never happens then.



borderer said:


> agreed some people think they can read dogs minds they tell us what dogs think and what the dont think and what we should think.


There are many theories around about dog behaviour and the best way to be with dogs and to understand dogs.
Nobody claims to be reading dogs' mind but it does not stop us from theorising and testing theories and seeing what holds water and what does not.

---

I personally believe in good pack leadership. Not so much based on wolves studies but mostly based on the simple societal and animal fact that every group, every society, every family needs order, needs leadership.
I believe my dogs are happier because they know I am in charge and they don't need to be.
I believe my dogs would be very unsettled if I was not in charge and was attempting to treat them like "equal friends".
We are not equal to our dogs; we pay the bills, the rent, decide the furniture, earn the cash, decide what to do with it and decide where to go on walks. If I could ask my dogs' view on it, I might but ill still decide 
I am in charge because I set rules and boundaries in the house; what is allowed (to be on the sofa when I call them) and what is not (to jump up on the sofa uninvited for instance). Without rules indeed there is chaos. Someone needs to be in charge.
It does not mean there is no love and trust, quite the contrary, compliance is based on trust, and leadership. Leaders who do not instil trust are not listened to.
It also does not mean my dogs fear me, quite the contrary. They are happy because they know their place and what they can and cannot do. I base leadership on trust and not fear.
It does not mean they are not rewarded for good behaviour either.

Hutch6 - great posts as usual :thumbup1:


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Quite agree that a creature from one species is capable of reading the body language of some other species. Some aspects of body language are pretty universal.
> 
> Not all, though. Look how often Cesar Millan mistakes a totally terrified, frozen dog for being "calm and submissive" LOL!


Of course there can be different interpretations. 
I think mostly us humans are pretty weak at interpreting body language as we use speech more often between each other - so we may disagree between each other. Some of us are better "readers" than "others" but it is difficult to know who is who...
It is also not an easy thing to read body language through a TV screen in my opinion, again more likely to bring differing interpretation.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

mitch4 said:


> You hold the most beneficial rule close to you Respect and I bet you dont even realise it but youv probably communicated to your dogs that your a strong leader and they feel safe and secure with you at the top.
> 
> Some dogs dont need much in the way of this being reinforced but you do get dogs that will test the system so to speak as there arent many Natural Alpha dogs born, Im not able to explain this in full, hopefully maybe Hutch6 or experts on here can, its something that was told to me and most dogs are happy to live without the need to be in charge but when you have an alpha dog this is where training and dog behaviour becomes important as they want to be in charge or think they do . I think the Alpha dogs in the wild are the only dogs to breed and I also know there is much controversy over whether we should still be useing the phrase Alpha dog so this post is probably going to be balsted


Yes, i suppose when i think about what i let them get away is what i am comfortable with....that i think most 'professionals' would advise against it....i let them slepp with me sometimes, on my lap, i share my food sometimes, my home is there home. 
my main thing is they are happy, one big mistake i made, was a while ago, my dog got chased and ran off very scared, she was only young....as she was so tiny, i tended to pick er up :mad2: when approached by other dogs, my fear not her....which made her fearful :mad2: 
So i am working on undoing my mistake....she is getting there, and will now allow dogs to greet her.

We live and learn i suppose.

I have just read this
Don't come near me when I am eating. 
If I have anything in my mouth then it is mine.
When we go out then I will pull on the lead because I want to do what I want to do.
If I want to run off and see something then I will.
I'll jump about, knock into things, cause a mess and do what i want in this room because its my room to do what I want.
If you leave I worry about because I don't want you out there on your own because you need me there.

All of them they are great with......except my one little bugger will sometimes pull on the lead...which i know is something i am going to have train, as we have a few dogs, and it is starting to cause a stress when walking...so i have been taking him out with just the little one.

Sorry op...for hijacking post. xxxx


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

GillyR said:


> Yes, i suppose when i think about what i let them get away is what i am comfortable with....that i think most 'professionals' would advise against it....i let them slepp with me sometimes, on my lap, i share my food sometimes, my home is there home.
> my main thing is they are happy, one big mistake i made, was a while ago, my dog got chased and ran off very scared, she was only young....as she was so tiny, i tended to pick er up :mad2: when approached by other dogs, my fear not her....which made her fearful :mad2:
> So i am working on undoing my mistake....she is getting there, and will now allow dogs to greet her.
> 
> ...


All of the things your dogs do as you say you are happy with so these are your rules and they will understand this.

owners sometimes really underestimate how much they are actually commnicateing with thier dogs with the use of body language alone. Hving 5 you really see the communication that goes on between them and its fascinateing

Mine can get up on the sofa but if I ask them to get down they do immediately, if one of them is in my seat on the sofa, yes Im a bit obsessive about my seat  then the dog will remove itself without me even asking. I share my food with them but always after Iv had some of whatever Im eating and they sit and wait calmly or else I will walk off and not give them anything and they all sit in exactly the same pattern wherever we are ready to get thier treat, they also sit in same places for thier tea  OCD dogs   or may be thats me with the OCD  but this is how they feel comfy I havent taght them to sit in specific places. Plus Molly, Charlie girl and Mabel will pile through a door first, Ella and Jasper will wait till I go through again Iv not trained them to do this

My dogs also pull on the lead if they are off the farm together but if I take 2 at a time they are fine, they arent used to leads much so this is my fault for not useing them more despite not needing them


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

mitch4 said:


> All of the things your dogs do as you say you are happy with so these are your rules and they will understand this.
> 
> owners sometimes really underestimate how much they are actually commnicateing with thier dogs with the use of body language alone. Hving 5 you really see the communication that goes on between them and its fascinateing
> 
> Mine can get up on the sofa but if I ask them to get down they do immediately, if one of them is in my seat on the sofa, yes Im a bit obsessive about my seat  then the dog will remove itself without me even asking.


Because your rules are clear and they respect them as well as you or the dog would challenge you for the seat.



mitch4 said:


> I share my food with them but always after Iv had some of whatever Im eating and they sit and wait calmly or else I will walk off and not give them anything and they all sit in exactly the same pattern wherever we are ready to get thier treat, they also sit in same places for thier tea  OCD dogs   or may be thats me with the OCD  but this is how they feel comfy I havent taght them to sit in specific places.


You iwll have buut not inadvertantly. That will have been the position they took when they first got fed so they got a reward for sitting there. This was then confirmed again the next time you fed them becasue they remembered if they sat there they got food and so on and so on and so on.

When I came back froma wlak with Dillon I would get on with making a brew or putting soem wasshing in but they all involved not needing him to be there so he could relax and chill out. As soon as we come back from a wlak now he goes to his bed, lies down and waits for me to involve him in something. He respects that I have other things to do. I never taught him him this it is just learned behaviour.



mitch4 said:


> Plus Molly, Charlie girl and Mabel will pile through a door first, Ella and Jasper will wait till I go through again Iv not trained them to do this


Ellie and Jasper just know that it is good manners the rest know that it has no consequence and they get what they want. If you were to ask them back behind you and if they moved in front of you then you asked them back again then they are not getting what they want. "What is in it for me to pile through this door?" Well they get taken out, things move forward etc. "What happens if I move through this door before the role-model?" Nothing. I am asked to remain until i am asked to join them and then I get my reward. If your dog is bouncing about, whinning excitedly and the rest when you start to get ready for a work and they get their leads on or let through the door to go out then they get their reward. If you wait and don;t do anything until they calm down and then go out they realise that they get nothing for being excited so what's the point in wasting all of that energy and time when if they remian calm they get the reward much quicker.

[/QUOTE]My dogs also pull on the lead if they are off the farm together but if I take 2 at a time they are fine, they arent used to leads much so this is my fault for not useing them more despite not needing them[/QUOTE]

I bet that is one or two dogs breaking the rule because they are feeding off eachother's challenge and energy to be the front runner. If you stopped. Asked them all to go behind you and each time one of them poked their heads in front you did the "AH-AH" or the dreaded "SHH!" or whatever you use to stop them in their tracks you wil have them all walking where you want them. "What do I gain from pulling on the lead?" I get there when I want, I get to investigate things first, I am not told any differently etc etc.
"What do I get if i go in front?" Nothing. I don;t get to see what's aroudn that corner that I so wanted to get to.

Remove what the reward from how they want to get it and they don't try that way anymore. They use their brain to figure out what they need to do to get the reward. If you show them the quick way to get the reward you speed up their learning but you get a lot of amusment from watching them go through their learned repertoir to get the reward. "What if I sit? What if I lie down? What if i give a paw? What if I bark? What if i roll over? Eventually they will try things you ahve never taught them but they think will make you give them the reward. Some of the offerings can be very strange indeed.

The important thing is it is all done on your terms "I will take you for a walk if you do this....."


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## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

james1 said:


> This isnt the first time it has given warning or had a reflex for no reason. *Personally I value human life more than animal so if the dog is dangerous / unpredictable then maybe it does need putting to sleep. There is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> I think there are too many people that would like to wrap things up in cotton wool and pretend everything is ok when infact you have the potential for a bigger attack sometime in the future. *
> The important bit here is that it has only ever showed agression to the woman, it would be interesting to know if it would have done the same thing to the guy and maybe he should try it to see. The dog sees some kind of problem with the woman and I wouldnt not risk this in a family environment. If it means putting it to sleep so be it.
> ...


i agree with the parts in bold...
problem is in this situation if i have read it right - the dog has been aggresive before and the OP is aware of this....so why wait until this to do something??

my dogs have never shown signs of aggression towards myself or my family members - i woludnt stand for it anyhow. i can hug/stroke/kiss my dog on the nose/head when shes sleeping and she dosent even grumble ever.... (i dont do it regularly as its mean lol)!...

so.. id be getting professional help if this was my dog.... not on a forum!!!

these types of situations imo need addressing before the dog is given away/destroyed.....if your willing to give the dog a second chance?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

nic101 said:


> i agree with the parts in bold...
> problem is in this situation if i have read it right - the dog has been aggresive before and the OP is aware of this....so why wait until this to do something??
> 
> my dogs have never shown signs of aggression towards myself or my family members - i woludnt stand for it anyhow. i can hug/stroke/kiss my dog on the nose/head when shes sleeping and she dosent even grumble ever.... (i dont do it regularly as its mean lol)!...
> ...


The OP is seeking professional help.

so your dog has never shown aggression to anyone in your house. Has it ever shown aggression to anyone outside of the home maybe growled at a stranger? Mine have and thi shas been when the stranger was approaching. I asked them to back off my dog which they did so no harm done. If this was a member of the family or regular visit to the house I would be working with person to abide by the rules I use with them in order for the dog to develop trust with them.

The same dog that growled at the other person has never growled at anyone since and never when off lead because if has come across someoine he didn't like the look of he has the primary option and response to get out of the way but on a lead he hasn't so a warning was given which I respected and which the stranger respected. I would never force my dog to accept soemone through correction if they were not comfortable with that person or I am breaking the trust my dog has in me to protect him and I have clearly made him accept a situation he is not comfortable with.

That is what has happened here. The dog has given warning before and these were either accepted or not. But in the instance that casued the bite the dog it was entitled to challenge and did so. If it was an attack to defend as a last resort the injury woul dhave been far worse becasue when a dog fights through no other option of flight or freeze it fights for survival.


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

my point is the same as above
maybe put in a bad way
but this dog has checked the girl
he has told her not to move towards him
and he WILL definatley do it again.
they need proper help with him
although i suspect it is already to late 
no dog should check a human
there was no warning for her to get away
noogsy xxx


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## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> The OP is seeking professional help.
> 
> so your dog has never shown aggression to anyone in your house. Has it ever shown aggression to anyone outside of the home maybe growled at a stranger? Mine have and thi shas been when the stranger was approaching. I asked them to back off my dog which they did so no harm done. If this was a member of the family or regular visit to the house I would be working with person to abide by the rules I use with them in order for the dog to develop trust with them.
> 
> ...


 if you read my post properly you will see 'my dog has never shown any signs of aggression towards me of my family members'

i said nothing about strangers.....or other people....

i actually havent got the time to read 10 pages of posts...... so i didnt know the OP was getting professional help.....

just to clear that up for you


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

noogsy said:


> my point is the same as above
> and he WILL definatley do it again.


Not necessarily. There are plenty of dogs that have bitten once and never do so again.



noogsy said:


> they need proper help with him


I agree. I think the first stop should be a vet though to check there's nothing medical causing this behaviour.



noogsy said:


> there was no warning for her to get away


Which is why I asked previously how the growling had been dealt with. If a dog has previously been chastised for growling, they will often bypass the growl and feel they have no option but to go straight to a bite.


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

Good lord, I read through to reply 39 last night and found it's more than doubled since! They seem to be appearing quicker than I could read them.

Someone mentioned LeashedForLife's writing style. I found it interesting personally, it almost felt as if I could see his thought processes in the odd punctuation. That aside, he's offered some great advice, is obviously very knowledgeable and understanding so the content shines through 

To the people/person who suggested their own dog would be gone if they ever bit. There is always a reason for biting. I'm sure if I started to repeatedly kick my dog, he would bite. Should he be destroyed for that bite? Was it his fault? I'm not suggesting you do that to find out but the point is they have their reasons. A decision like that needs to be based on the reason behind it. He's fine with us both most of the time. When he was allowed in the bed, he would stay curled up with whoever woke last, me or her. He follows us both, obeys both of our commands equally and loved watching Yovina on the treadmill, he knows the sound of it being switched on. (Possibly partly because I'm training him to use it to help me out during the nastier weather days through winter. Amazingly he loves it!)

As far as I can see it was a confusion of messages. Her showing affection was seen as threatening to Shadow. Shadow responded by saying 'back off', which while seen as aggression wasn't.

When he growled in the past she backed off and that was it. After the bite he went back to lying down once she backed off.

I can't remember if I said earlier in the thread, but I'm starting out by getting her to approach the dog when he is lying down (but not sleeping) and either give him a treat or scratch his belly. That way he will accept that her approach means good things will happen. She's a bit apprehensive but he's not growling.

Every time he has growled (and now bitten) he was on the sofa or the armchair. As the height off the ground is a symbol of status which he seemed to want to protect, we're both keeping him off from now on. We're doing the same with the bed. We always feed him after us anyway but I'm now leaving that responsibility to her. We experimented yesterday with her putting her hand in the bowl. He backed away straight away, she moved it and allowed him to carry on. I think the message is getting through but we'll talk to the behaviourist in just under 2 weeks to make sure we're now doing things correctly and see what to do in other situations.

We've learned a lesson. A dog is like a pair of scissors. It doesn't hug, should never be left with children and you should ALWAYS respect the sharp end.

... and to people who pass judgement before reading the thread, don't  no point in arguing blindly.

Our options were:

Ignore the problem and hope it went away 
- Yeah right, dream on.

Put the dog down.
- This wasn't a dog attack, just a defensive, unfortunately positioned snap. He is not an aggressive dog, he just wasn't sure of his place.

Rehome the dog.
- Without addressing the problem, this would impact on his security possibly making him more snappy. It would be irresponsible not to tell the future owners but this would mean he's less likely to be accepted.

Find out why it happened and address the problems.
-As humans we assume the dogs place is at the bottom. A dog doesn't understand the same logic and doesn't make this assumption. His place has to be clearly laid out so there is no question. Yovina's approach should be addressed, get his attention before leaning in to ensure a) he's awake and b) he will be able to see what's going on and won't jump to rash decisions.

With this in place, he should never do it again. If he does, I don't know what we'll do. But fingers crossed.

He's quickly learned the bedroom and sofas are out of bounds. He does occasionally go to jump on the sofa but hesitates and wanders off. Otherwise will let you know how we get on.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

Great outcome, very happy to know you are working through this and you have the right attitude! Well done :thumbup1::thumbup1:


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Right hang fire before doing any of this with your wife and the dog.

You are getting your wife to approach the dog whiulst the fog is minding it's own business. Let sleeping dogs lie.

When your wife approached your dog as it was minding it's own business doing whatever it growled as it didn't want to have any attention from her. Then it snapped because it didn't want any attention.

Your wife should not be approaching the dog at all because it is forcing yourself on the dog and it ain't ready this. Your dog's mouth is four times quicker than you closing your hand so imagine how fast anyone has to be to intervene. 

Your wife should be calling the dog to her and making the dog do things on her terms therefore it gets the dog in the mind set of "You called. What can I do for you?" Rather than taking the chnace of it being in "do not disturb!"

Think about this and you will be doing things right. Its not about getting your dog to tollerate what your wife wants its about the dog allowing your wife the right to. Training tollerance is a recipe for disaster or failure.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I can sort of understand why people don't believe in the "leadership or dominance" theory.

If I had taken my third rescue on before the first two, I would probably have started off not taking much notice of it. Sammy is a total kettle of fish and whereby he responds to training and does not appear to exert dominance, the other two are completely difference.

Because of Max and Lilly's (greek rescues) back ground, they need to be managed in a totally different way. They are very pack orientated, sometimes not always in the nicest of ways! Max has a very dominant streak, which has led to him biting and even attacking people. ( Fortunately he has me as an owner and I am prepared to work through his problems!) Once I met a behaviourist who used the pack/leadership techniques and by getting myself an education, we were able to manage them.

It's funny, if I let up with Max I see an almost immediate difference. No positive training (on it's own) is going to keep his dominant streak at bay. Only by being firmly at the top of my pack am I able to maintain a calm and stress free house hold.

Totally agree about the walking. If I walk Max and Sammy together they are awful at pulling. Both walk fine on their own of with Lilly, but together it is like competition!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

OP - the best way for the dog to trust and respect your partner is by her walking him. This allows her to practice leadership, whilst doing his favourite thing. Very, very important.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

slicksps said:


> Good lord, I read through to reply 39 last night and found it's more than doubled since! They seem to be appearing quicker than I could read them.
> 
> Someone mentioned LeashedForLife's writing style. I found it interesting personally, it almost felt as if I could see his thought processes in the odd punctuation. That aside, he's offered some great advice, is obviously very knowledgeable and understanding so the content shines through
> 
> ...


With all of this discussion - the item in bold is all your doing to address the problem????. You keep saying in this that he is not an attack dog. You are justifying his actions here - he attacked without reason, thats it, end of. Temperment can be channelled but you are not the ones to try I think. Id ask you "who matters more" a dog that you plainly do not know (think thats obvious given the circumstances) or your wife?

I do agree to the idea of training it and suggested this very early on - but if you have looked into training it already (as most people do with one being 18mths old) you havent done a good job!! That is not being critical its just stating an observation.

I would give it up to someone with more experience to take it on. This is not the kind of dog you want to split hairs over, its a dog that if you get things wrong with can do you injury.
hmm

edit: and you should be able to approach a sleeping dog and have it not react like this. If it doesnt trust you to make it safe within its regular calm home environment then it has serious problems, very serious ones that are not easily changed. Get rid of it.


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

james1 said:


> With all of this discussion - the item in bold is all your doing to adress the problem????. You keep saying in this that he is not an attack dog. You are justifying his actions here - he attacked without reason, thats it, end of. Temperment can be channelled but you are not the ones to try I think. Id ask you "who matters more" a dog that you plainly do not know (think thats obvious given the circumstances) or your wife?
> 
> I do agree the idea of training it and suggested this very early on - but if you have looked at training it already (as most people do with one being 18mths old) you havent done a good job!! That is not being critical its just stating an observation.
> 
> ...


Have you ever had, worked with or rehabilitated a dog that has bitten?


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

james1 said:


> With all of this discussion - the item in bold is all your doing to adress the problem????. You keep saying in this that he is not an attack dog. You are justifying his actions here - he attacked without reason, thats it, end of. Temperment can be channelled but you are not the ones to try I think. Id ask you "who matters more" a dog that you plainly do not know (think thats obvious given the circumstances) or your wife?
> 
> I do agree the idea of training it and suggested this very early on - but if you have looked at training it already (as most people do with one being 18mths old) you havent done a good job!! That is not being critical its just stating an observation.
> 
> ...


James this is when you make me cross.

You are giving someone advice when you have no idea what you are talking about.

This is bad enough when it concerns something fairly harmless, but in cases like this your lack of knowledge might influence someone to have their dog rehomed or PTS when actually, the problems might well be solve-able. Would you really want that on your conscience??


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

James for once in your life please keep it shut!! Not every dog that bites needs to be gotten rid of of PTS 

OP thank god you're taking everyone elses advice!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

jeese I dont know how many dogs I know of that have bitten ONCE have successfully lived out their lives, because the owners have adjusted their actions and training methods. everything is NOT black and white, James as you were not at the scene when this happened, as you do not have all the facts, as we dont know you from Adam, and are not aware of your qualifications, then I think you are going over the top trying to influence someone this way Im sorry James, but it sounds like you have written this dog off, at least the dogs owners are prepared to work at this and are also aware that if things dont work out, that they have a duty to PTS if required. but personally I think they have a chance of working it out.

Mo


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

hutch6 - I thought of that, but I have my kid brother and sister coming over at Christmas and while they will be 'trained' to leave the dog alone, I want to be comfortable if they slip up. We're teaching him to be ok with it and override his instincts to react. When she's doing this, we are both very aware of his posture and reactions and so far he's been absolutely fine with it. He loves getting treats so we're reinforcing that when someone approaches, it's ok. The reason I'm convinced this will work is because he lets me do anything. I am very boisterous with him (training him in the meantime when rough play can start and MUST stop) and can do anything with no reaction. This tells me he's capable of being ok with Yovina too. She's now walking him more often as well as other changes.

james1 - That isn't ALL we're doing at all. The item in bold is just how we're changing that one situation. Let's face it she's not going to put her face near him for a long while yet anyway, but that's what we decided. On top of that we're changing lots of things around the house, how we're reacting to him, how he's treated. We also have a behaviourist coming in to help us make any further changes she deems necessary and sort out some other minor problems like barking at strangers in the street when it's dark (during the day, it's no problem but the darkness seems to scare him) We've been continuing his training since we got him 3 months ago and he's been learning quickly and passionately. It's therefore not an observation as you haven't witnessed the hard work we've put in to shaping his behaviour and setting rules. So we're working hard as I've said many times to fix the problem rather than palming it off on someone else affecting his mental state in the process.

When he first came into the home, he didn't trust us any more than you would trust me to fix your car right now. These things take time, he trusts me completely but for some reason has a slight reservation for my wife. ALL of the above is in the run up to helping him learn that actually she's ok.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> Right hang fire before doing any of this with your wife and the dog.
> 
> You are getting your wife to approach the dog whiulst the fog is minding it's own business. Let sleeping dogs lie.
> 
> ...


so do as you are told so endeth this sermon


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

james1 said:


> With all of this discussion - the item in bold is all your doing to adress the problem????. You keep saying in this that he is not an attack dog. You are justifying his actions here - he attacked without reason, thats it, end of. Temperment can be channelled but you are not the ones to try I think. Id ask you "who matters more" a dog that you plainly do not know (think thats obvious given the circumstances) or your wife?
> 
> I do agree the idea of training it and suggested this very early on - but if you have looked at training it already (as most people do with one being 18mths old) you havent done a good job!! That is not being critical its just stating an observation.
> 
> ...


Dogs dont attack without reason.
You dont know the OP or his dog personally.
Your critical comments are not constructive and not helpful.

I admire someone for trying and solving the issues he faces.
I wont respect someone who is merely willing to pass on the buck.


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Hutch6
Thank you so much for your eply to my post. Im going to try out the training you suggest and I think you are right about the pulling on the lead, it seems Ella and Jasper who are the older ones are very good dont seem to pull first, Mollys not too bad but its the youngsters Mabel and Charlie girl, maybe If Im honest Iv done less training with the 2 babes as the adults kind of took over with them, so may be I have to look at this.

I really love understanding why and how we communicate with them and them us, it so brings you closer

Thank you again :thumbup1:


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> The OP is seeking professional help.
> 
> so your dog has never shown aggression to anyone in your house. Has it ever shown aggression to anyone outside of the home maybe growled at a stranger? Mine have and thi shas been when the stranger was approaching. I asked them to back off my dog which they did so no harm done. If this was a member of the family or regular visit to the house I would be working with person to abide by the rules I use with them in order for the dog to develop trust with them.
> 
> ...


Our Ella is very reserved, when we had first time visitors to the house Ella took herself off to one of the beds in the hallway, all the other dogs were being freindly and one of the visitors went out in to the hall to get soemthing and felt sorry for Ella and went against our advice to leave her alone, that shed come out when ready for some attention, they approached her went down to stroke her and as the bed was in a corner she had no escape, so she growled, lucky enough our visitor heeded the growl and backed away. Ella relaxed. About half hr later Ella peeped in the lounge and then came in she sat by me for a while and then slowly approached the visitor whod approached her and whod got the growl, Ella wagged her little tail just a bit, I asked for her not to be stroked and Ella ended up sitting by the lady and in the end allowed her to stroke her.

So unheeded Ella would have probably nipped out, Im unsure if shed have bitten as Ella never has but shes normally got an escape and takes herself out of uncomfortable situations. Shes no way aggressive, she once knows you is one of the most loving dogs you could meet and hugely loyal.

Most dogs dont want to bite but Im sure there are exceptions but you cant make a judghement like this until assessments have been done and if you cant safely do this yourself them rehomeing to a reputable rescue centre would be the answer.


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Didnt catch in the begining posts that the labbie is a rescue, so there is more scope for you guys to get it right with him

Well done for your commitment

Can I make an observation and then let the experts put me write or agree but you say you play rough with him, this may not be a good idea with a dog who is having to adjust to new surroundings, new rules and also this type of play hypes a dog up and he may expect to be able to behave with everyone in a rough way. 

Good luck though keep us posted on his progress :thumbup1:


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

All. You are criticising my opinion for telling them to get rid of it when you are telling them to keep it which could very easily result in more damage. They have got an ill tempered lab and they dont know what to do with it. Which is more irresponsible? And which is the better advice.?

If you can continue my thoughts of the below



slicksps said:


> We've been continuing his training since we got him 3 months ago and he's been learning quickly and passionately. It's therefore not an observation as you haven't witnessed the hard work we've put in to shaping his behaviour and setting rules. So we're working hard as I've said many times to fix the problem rather than palming it off on someone else affecting his mental state in the process.
> 
> When he first came into the home, he didn't trust us any more than you would trust me to fix your car right now. These things take time, he trusts me completely but for some reason has a slight reservation for my wife. ALL of the above is in the run up to helping him learn that actually she's ok.


In 18 months hes not learned that shes OK? 
cont.
If they have been training it for this period of time - it does not trust them in the least - it is unsettled and anxious. Labs dont need shaping - they are one of the easiest breeds to get along with. Labs need training not shaping as their behoviour is usually impeccable trained or not due to good standard temperement. However, there are labs that are difficult these for the majority have probs with other dogs though this one barks at strangers, growls freely and bites its owners, (there are probably other issues not mentioned im guessing) this shows *learned or inherited, that it has gone to far for their abilities. (if it is inherited - you have tremendous problems btw)

OP: stay with it by all means - but do consider the fact that if things arent going well after a month (either bond or behaviour wise) make a decision to find it a home that it will be suited to. You could be instilling more anxiety than good leadership (which i would suggest is the case here). Im not here to take a dog off you as im usually stout with training advice but people seem to be shy of what your facing.


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

They only got him 3 months ago

Whats the history behind how you got your lab, this is probably the answer to why hes so fearful and ready to protect himself also is he neutered


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

They've had this dog for 3 months. 3 MONTHS. 

Sky actually growled at me the other day when I went to take something off her. Does this mean I should get rid of her too?  No, I work through the issues and since she's been perfect letting me take anything off her without protest.


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

james1 said:


> Labs need training not shaping as their behoviour is usually impeccable trained or not due to good standard temperement.


What is this even meant to mean? 

They've had the dog 3 months, not 18.

If things aren't going well after a month you should get rid? You've obviously never dealt with a rescue with real problems.

If I followed your advise I wouldn't have half my dogs.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

mitch4 said:


> They only got him 3 months ago
> Whats the history behind how you got your lab, this is probably the answer to why hes so fearful and ready to protect himself also is he neutered


It may have been another thread then, I thought they said they had it since a pup. In any case its definitely got some agression issues and they should have been warned of this when they received it so should have been aware of the situation instead of sounding all surprise when this happened.

I dont own a lab, I used to but that was a long while ago now  Neutering doesnt stop any agression btw it stops testosterone build up but if it has learned to bite/bark/growl it will contine to - if it is hereditary they have big problems.


HighPr00 said:


> What is this even meant to mean?


Shaping suggests they have had issues with it for a long time and have tried to coax behaviour they want. Training has the emphasis of routine = regular activity rather than reacting to the moment in trying to soothe out a response. Id never try to shape the behaviour of an animal simply because you dont know what they are thinking, whereas training you know what you are doing and what you expect to happen.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Dogs can and do act different in a home than they do when they are in kennels, this dog needs to be taught that this behaviour is unacceptable, he has only had 3 months in this new home I would imagine up to now he has been finding his feet, and where he stands in the household, he has tried pushing his boundarys to see how far he can get, if the OP is more firm with the dog, teaches it nothing in life is free, and gains the dogs trust, I am betting things will completely turn around, I have seen this happen MANY times. just for an eg, I know of a malamute that was rehomed, because of a family split up, malamutes tend to "talk" growl and its owners were a bit fearful of this dog, because it growled a lot so it ended up being put in a large kennel in the back garden, the dog has no social interaction and thought it ruled the roost, when its owners split up, they handed the dog into the rescue, they were very honest about how the dog behaved, the dog was worked on, not allowed to get away with the growling and aggressive behaviour is displayed in the early days, it was taught with positive reinforcement what it was allowed to do and what it was not allowed to do, the dog got rehomed eventually, and we get regular updates letting us know what a fine dog she is. she is now nearly 7 years of age, she was 5 years of age when she came into the rescue, this dog could have been written off if we took your stance. but instead the dog has been give a chance to be a good family member. what also should be considered here is this is a lab I would find out if there are any hip problems, if the dog has dysplaysia it may well be that the lady put pressure on the dogs hips as she leant over and it could well be that the dog lashed out not in anger but in pain even if the dog has not shown any signs of being in a lot of pain, we all know how well dogs hide this.



Mo


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> Shaping suggests they have had issues with it for a long time and have tried to coax behaviour they want. Training has the emphasis of routine = regular activity rather than reacting to the moment in trying to soothe out a response. Id never try to shape the behaviour of an animal simply because you dont know what they are thinking, whereas training you know what you are doing and what you expect to happen.


See, you're doing it again. The above is waffle and makes no sense.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2009)

james1 said:


> I dont own a lab, I used to but that was a long while ago now  Neutering doesnt stop any agression btw it stops testosterone build up but if it has learned to bite/bark/growl it will contine to - i*f it is hereditary they have big problems.*


WHAT?
Every dog has in him the potential to bite given the "right" circumstances.
It does not mean its "hereditary" (???????)!
Have you never dealt with a problematic dog?
Glad you dont work at a rescue, you would write off most dogs in most rescues otherwise!
Dogs are ANIMALS, not robots and not pets first of all but ANIMALS and in that they can ALL be unpredictable (and the breed has got NOTHING to do with it either).
I really fail to follow your reasoning on this one...


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

this problem/subject is never cut and dried we had a dog many years ago,its a very long story but he was only 9 months when he was due to be p.t.s for his aggression this decision can never or should be taken lightly, all avenues should be explored but there are cases when with the best will in the world all the help you can get and family circumstances that sadly this has to be, ours was very very lucky we had contacted people all over the county and believe it or not his appointment with the vet to put ham to sleep was 40mins away when we got a call fron one of the people we contacted and she had him, he went to live on a small holding guarding which was all he ever wanted to do, a family pet he wasnt and never would have been.


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## lady_r0gue (Jul 22, 2009)

I have faith in you Slicksp, I think you have completely the right attitude and if your wife can conquer her fear and approach the situation with just a fraction of the common sense you appear to have, as I said on page 7 there is every chance the pup will never bite again; I was bitten as a kid in the face by a great dog called Skid; luckily for Skid and his human my mum was never the sort of person who would over sensationalise things, the nip was only minor and I knew it was my fault straight away. Skid never bit anyone else ever again. I would have been devastated had he been rehomed or PTS just because I had invaded his space and surprised him with a kiss. It was me who needed the training.


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## lady_r0gue (Jul 22, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> this problem/subject is never cut and dried we had a dog many years ago,its a very long story but he was only 9 months when he was due to be p.t.s for his aggression this decision can never or should be taken lightly, all avenues should be explored but there are cases when with the best will in the world all the help you can get and family circumstances that sadly this has to be, ours was very very lucky we had contacted people all over the county and believe it or not his appointment with the vet to put ham to sleep was 40mins away when we got a call fron one of the people we contacted and she had him, he went to live on a small holding guarding which was all he ever wanted to do, a family pet he wasnt and never would have been.


Aw brilliant x what a lucky outcome for your boy xxx brought a tear to my eye


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

lady_r0gue said:


> Aw brilliant x what a lucky outcome for your boy xxx brought a tear to my eye


Oh the full story is unbelievable we were well and truely duped by the people we got him off he was the most beautifull looking dog but dangerous ime afraid, we went to see him a few times and was so happy she had a lot to put up with from him at first but the environment he was in was so comtrolled he never seriously hurt anyone, the last i heard he was 13 and still a bugger but happy with it


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> You are getting your wife to approach the dog whilst the dog is minding it's own business. Let sleeping dogs lie.
> 
> When your wife approached your dog as it was minding it's own business doing whatever it growled as it didn't want to have any attention from her. Then it snapped because it didn't want any attention.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, the dog should be called to you rather than you going to it. It's part of being the leader.


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

James1 - Everyone else corrected you before I did so won't repeat it.

What I would like though is for you to come here, look at that playful pup and tell me he has aggression issues.

Yes he bit one and has growled twice, he was allowed to get too high a status in our household and this is being addressed. He was protecting his spot on the sofa and so he has lost sofa privileges. So far he's just been his usual self.

Shaping behaviour I disagree that it means he's a problem animal. Shaping behaviour to me just means to redirect some unnecessary barking at outside noises, chewing on furniture... usual puppy/doggy stuff. Shaping to me is letting him know what we like and dislike and where his boundaries are.

I think you feel the same way about him that we did for the first few hours after the bite. But since reading messages here, getting advice from a local trainer and conversations with experienced dog owners, I've changed my mind.

If you walk into a pub and punch someone for no reason, you're aggressive.
If you walk into a pub and punch someone who's sat kissing your wife and you punch them. It's protective.
If you walk into a pub, get threatened with a knife and kicked in the shins, and you punch someone. You've being defensive.

There's always a reason and that reason gives us something to work with. I'm not going to disrupt his life again, moving him into his fourth home just because he doesn't know his place. We made a mistake and we're undoing that mistake, we're not going to throw away like a torn sandwich and start again. It's a life we're dealing with.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

slicksps said:


> James1 - Everyone else corrected you before I did so won't repeat it.
> 
> What I would like though is for you to come here, look at that playful pup and tell me he has aggression issues.
> 
> ...


I like you. I have kept up through following on this thread but i have not responded to it because i have nothing to say. No advice. Seriously this is not something i have ever experienced before so i can't advise. But i just wanted to say i'm glad you are tackling the problem head on and not giving up just because of one problem.

But one thing i might suggest for your wife, just to build up confidence around your dog and probably around others. Training classes. If she takes your dog herself for training classes it will hopefully help both her and your dog to bond.

So far your dog knows YOU are the boss, not your wife, so maybe perhaps if you got your wife to get more involved and take the dog for training and stuff the bond will get stronger and your wife will be more confident.

Good luck and i hope all goes well  I really am glad you are not giving up


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Oblada said:


> WHAT?
> Every dog has in him the potential to bite given the "right" circumstances.
> It does not mean its "hereditary" (???????)!
> Have you never dealt with a problematic dog?
> ...


No I think what James meant is that if a dog has an issue or a learned behaviour before neuturing then the neuturing won't stop the issue.

I agree with him on this. Neutering does not correct an already bad dog and neither does it make a bad dog good. Only working with your dog will do or lack of working with your dog.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

slicksps said:


> James1 - Everyone else corrected you before I did so won't repeat it.


When you wife needs an ambulance to take her to the hospital someone being correct doesnt come into it. What matters is you know your situation - which you dont. You could kick a dog all day long and if it is non agressive it will not bite you, it wouldnt even growl, instead it will run away or cower. You have an agressive dog but you obviously know more than me on this. Good luck with the shaping :thumbup1:


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

james1 said:


> When you wife needs an ambulance to take her to the hospital someone being correct doesnt come into it. What matters is you know your situation - which you dont. You could kick a dog all day long and if it is non agressive it will not bite you, it wouldnt even growl, instead it will run away or cower. You have an agressive dog but you obviously know more than me on this. Good luck with the shaping :thumbup1:


TBH James, most people know more than you on this


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> TBH James, most people know more than you on this


And tbh who wants your opinion? Your only inclination on this forum is to tarnish opinion and begin agruments.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

james1 said:


> And tbh who wants your opinion? Your only inclination on this forum is to tarnish opinion and begin agruments.


Wrong. I frequently post advice. But frankly, if all I ever posted was "Do the opposite of what James1 suggests" I'd be doing everyone a favour LOL!


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Wrong. I frequently post advice. But frankly, if all I ever posted was "Do the opposite of what James1 suggests" I'd be doing everyone a favour LOL!


Ill put a gold sticker in the post for you  
Youd be doing everyone a favour by simply answering a post with comments, but id say all you seem capable of is making threads into personal issues. Something which you are very good at and frequently do.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

james1 said:


> When you wife needs an ambulance to take her to the hospital someone being correct doesnt come into it. What matters is you know your situation - which you dont. You could kick a dog all day long and if it is non agressive it will not bite you, it wouldnt even growl, instead it will run away or cower. You have an agressive dog but you obviously know more than me on this. Good luck with the shaping :thumbup1:


YOu cannot state what a dog will do if you kick it all day!

Every dog reacts different and if you kick it enough it may just turn round and bite you.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

james1 said:


> Ill put a gold sticker in the post for you
> Youd be doing everyone a favour by simply answering a post with comments, but id say all you seem capable of is making threads into personal issues. Something which you are very good at and frequently do.


Oh it's nothing personal! But not everyone realises that your posts tend to be inaccurate and your advice baseless. Let's face it, if the OP followed your advice their dog would be dead by now, when in fact it is perfectly possible that with the right behaviourist and advice, the dog need never transgress again. I'd be irresponsible if I didn't point that out


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> YOu cannot state what a dog will do if you kick it all day!
> 
> Every dog reacts different and if you kick it enough it may just turn round and bite you.


Precisely.

But presumably James would then label it "aggressive"


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

To be honest all the twoing and froing in the world won't change the fact that this dog did bite under fairly normal family circumstances, it may have been "provoked" in dog terms but that is a major issue because it clearly has a low tolerance threshhold to close physical contact. 

I have been there, i have had that sick feeling of wondering what the hell i do now and what i did wrong and i have to say whilst i found the support on here wonderful & helpful the differing advice i received did confuse the issue somewhat.

For agression issues the dog MUST be seen by a decent trainer or behaviourist who has real experience not just paper experience or read all the books experience.

Only then can the problem be assessed and a plan put in place. 

In our case Oscar needed a much firmer approach than we were using, this was the only thing that stopped the behaviour coupled with re establishing within the family that we all come first and under no circumstances can he growl at or lunge for any of us.

He is currently sat on the sofa eek with a bone. Stupid some might say but truly that is how far he has come and how much trust i have re gained so i do believe this behaviour can be managed but you have to come to terms with the fact that your dog has that streak and therefore you will ALWAYS need to be aware of it (regression to this behaviour will always be a possibility). 

He is not a rock solid bundle of fluffy loveliness he is something you have in your home that could hospitalise you or your loved ones in a matter of seconds. It is then down to personal choice if you chose to take the risk (and it is a risk) that he will not do it again.

I really do believe it is dangerous to give advice on this sort of thing other than get in a behaviourist/trainer, go see a vet etc over the net.


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Our Molly is a dog who is really sweet in nature, allows you to do anything with her and to her, allows you to correct her (not physically) without showing any reaction that is negative, allows you to go down to her when asleep take things out of her mouth etc.. etc.. but one day with me being overly confident in my relationship with her I did not heed her grumble at me, 

I was intent on cleaning  and needed to move the bed she was in at the time she was chewing a bone very intently, as I went down to her with no warning from me, I remember her grumbling, I ignored it and stupidly went to move the bone to encourage her to move beds, I know chronically stupid on my part :frown2: but I did and the result was she lunged at my hand and made contact, now as soon as she made contact she withdrew but not before shed bruised my hand with a single tooth mark, I didnt chastise her I just moved away, she did all the appeaseing gestures ears flat to head, head hung wagging her tail intent on getting my attention, I ignored her for a while but when I made my mind up to call her to me I made sure I had a nice tastey treat for her, Im no expert but in my mind I just wanted to let her know again that my hands were not a threat. 

But she did go to bite me, was it her fault  is she really an aggressive dog, I dont think so, I think it was absolutely my fault, as someone said earlier, our pets are dogs/animals with animal instincts. 

Dogs have a different way of communicateing and as good owners we need to learn that language, to allow an equal relationship of trust and respect to grow.


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

I did want to add a little bit on my experience with a dog we had 18 yrs ago

We had a male goldie, we had from a puppy, he showed very challenging behaviour from 9 weeks old, now cutting a very emotional and long story short, he seemed to suffer types of seizures, he was bought in good faith from a so called breeder who it became known was a dealer for a puppy farm in wales. 

The goldie would attack everyone but me and cause quite nasty bites, we had all sorts of professionals involved and the golidie rescue, roger mugford gave opinion on assessments done. Videos of behaviour went eveywhere to see if we could help this dog, Vets were involved he was castrated and given chemical castration, so agree castration bears no real significance in a dogs challenging behaviour.

Now hed never bitten me but I was very much his, he would mount me everytime I returned from leaving him, even if it was just coming from another room, no one could get near me without his presence being strongly felt. 

We spent 22 months trying to help this dog and then he attacked me not really that badly but my arm was a bit of a mess.

The result unfortunately for this poor dog was he was put to sleep at 2yrs old. He affected me deeply, I loved him despite how he was as I felt it wasnt his fault, it was the awful breed progrramme his poor mum and dad were involved in. May be today he would have stood a better chance as training and understanding of behaviours is a lot better than 18 years ago. He never attacked out of the home and was a delight to take out.

The diagnosis was Rage Syndrome although I did not allow a post mortem but they said all signs were there, the glazed vacant look the head swinging and then the attack very very sad. 

So there is always going to be a tiny percentage of dogs who cant be helped but after 3 months and such few incidents it really isnt the time to be discussing the poor dogs fate. So glad hes being given a chance. It would be interesting to know the history behind the dog having had 4 homes and why. We fostered a dog whod had 3 homes before us , he was a challenge but went on to be a wonderful boy so having had 4 homes doesnt condem the dog but it may just shed light on what the OP is dealing with.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> No I think what James meant is that if a dog has an issue or a learned behaviour before neuturing then the neuturing won't stop the issue.
> 
> I agree with him on this. Neutering does not correct an already bad dog and neither does it make a bad dog good. Only working with your dog will do or lack of working with your dog.


I certainly agree with that (as I am not a fan of neutering at the first place)!
My issue was with the bit in bold in particular about hereditary aggression or hereditary propensity to bite...
Never mind!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Oblada said:


> I certainly agree with that (as I am not a fan of neutering at the first place)!
> My issue was with the bit in bold in particular about hereditary aggression or hereditary propensity to bite...
> Never mind!


Yes, he was right on that bit. Neutering won't necessarily be the "cure all" that vets tend to tell you. And lots of people keep entire male and female dogs - sometimes together - without being knee deep in puppies.... but that's a different topic


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2009)

james1 said:


> When you wife needs an ambulance to take her to the hospital someone being correct doesnt come into it. What matters is you know your situation - which you dont. You could kick a dog all day long and if it is non agressive it will not bite you, it wouldnt even growl, instead it will run away or cower. You have an agressive dog but you obviously know more than me on this. Good luck with the shaping :thumbup1:


Thats ridiculous!!
You dont have born-aggressive and born-non-aggressive dogs, it is just plain nonsense!!
Dogs are animals (and animals who dont moralise and rationalise things like humans do) and as such always have in them the propensity to bite given the "right" circumstances....
Dogs dont bite without reasons and its usually the humans' fault for not "reading" the dog properly.
On that subject I seriously doubt what on earth you base your information/advice on because it looks seriously flawed to me...


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Interesting that the dog went for the weakest member of the pack. The one who is fearful. My opinion was prior to this the pack went, Husband, dog and then wife.
> 
> There will always be a social heirachy and if the humans are not at the top of this, then things can happen.
> 
> ...


Hello, 
I don't deny that there is definately a social hierachy amongst dogs. Anyone with multi-dog households will have indeed noticed evidence of one dog being more strongwilled/ the boss etc...
Studies have also shown that dogs, when meeting other dogs/canines that are not of their social group/pack will act on a very individual level by assessing how they will behave to said individual dog. This is why you will see one dog act rather cheekily/bossily towards one dog and then the same dog behave very respectfully to another.

So yes there is social hierachy among dogs yet they also assess how they will behave on an individual level in some cases. 
HOWEVER, my point is and this is CRUCIAL:
As colliepoodle quite rightly explained WE ARE NOT DOGS!!!
Yes dogs can read our body language
Yes they form very strong attachment bonds with us
BUT WE STILL AREN'T DOGS and by trying to imitate canine behaviour according to dominance theory in order to "assert ourselves as leader", not only as we confusing our dogs (and ourselves quite frankly), we are painful simplifying their behaviour.

You said:


> Interesting that the dog went for the weakest member of the pack. The one who is fearful. My opinion was prior to this the pack went, Husband, dog and then wife.


This is a real problem that I have with dominance theory. It seems to claim that dogs are on a bid for power :shocked: and try to take out other supposedly "weaker" members of their social group in order to do this? :shocked:

WHAT IS BEING FAILED TO BE RECOGNISED is that DOGS ARE EMOTIONAL BEINGS! They know when someone is fearful and this in turn may make them shy or fearful of this person. They know when something is wrong. If this was the case for the OP, the dog will have obviously been able to sense his wife's fear which would explain why he was less attached to her than the OP himself. It may also explain any slightly more defensive behaviour towards his wife.

I watched an episode of the dog whisperer the other day (lord knows why I was practically pulling my hair out by the end of it). What really made me think was when Cesar Milan himself was explaining to an owner what they had being doing wrong. The owner, obviously feeling guilty about this began to cry. Her dog seeing their owner's reaction, approached it's owner and sat next to her, licking her on the face and wiping away her tears. 
What does CM say "See what I mean- he sees you as weak and is trying to dominate you"



Poor misunderstood dog. 
That just about takes away the joy of having dog's doesn't it?

Please guys... 
DOGS ARE NOT ON A BID FOR POWER.

Dominance theory is far to simplistic and what is worse it's method's can be incredibly dangerous.

To the OP- sorry to go off track. Glad you've got some good advice. Please don't listen to the people who are labeling your dog and giving you stick.

Hope your wife is ok. 
And your dog too 
Chin up


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

lemmsy said:


> Hello,
> I don't deny that there is definately a social hierachy amongst dogs. Anyone with multi-dog households will have indeed noticed evidence of one dog being more strongwilled/ the boss etc...
> Studies have also shown that dogs, when meeting other dogs/canines that are not of their social group/pack will act on a very individual level by assessing how they will behave to said individual dog. This is why you will see one dog act rather cheekily/bossily towards one dog and then the same dog behave very respectfully to another.
> 
> ...


Fab post. I'd rep you but I have to spread it around first.

I'm glad I didn't see the episode of DW that you described. I'd have ended up very angry. The bloke really is a prat, isn't he?


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> I'm glad I didn't see the episode of DW that you described. I'd have ended up very angry. The bloke really is a prat, isn't he?


Yes. I regret watching it. It made me really quite angry and I felt sorry for the dog, being so painfully misunderstood.  Fortunately he's not on sky3 anymore as far as I'm aware. Phew!


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> Hello,
> I don't deny that there is definately a social hierachy amongst dogs. Anyone with multi-dog households will have indeed noticed evidence of one dog being more strongwilled/ the boss etc...
> Studies have also shown that dogs, when meeting other dogs/canines that are not of their social group/pack will act on a very individual level by assessing how they will behave to said individual dog. This is why you will see one dog act rather cheekily/bossily towards one dog and then the same dog behave very respectfully to another.
> 
> ...


Brilliant post. :thumbup1:


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

That's something I do hate about CM. Much of what he says is great and makes sense. Remember he's an animal first, then dog, then breed, then the name. All perfect sense, but you're right even in a pack environment, it makes no sense for already dominant dogs to waste their time and energy going over the same dominant behaviour when there's food to catch and predators to escape, the whole pack is needed for this to work. Piranhas will pick off the weaker of the school but there tend to be a lot more. Dogs would just deplete their pack.

James1 - If my wife ends up in hospital after an attack despite the changes we're making, I will come back to you and plead your forgiveness. If you kick a non-aggressive dog all day, assuming you don't kill it or render it unconscious, it will eventually bite you. In fact trap a rabbit or hamster, and it will bite... and who's ever seen an aggressive flop eared bunny rabbit?

According to you, he's an aggressive dog. He can't be rehomed as that will make things worse. Should he be put down?


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2009)

slicksps said:


> That's something I do hate about CM. Much of what he says is great and makes sense. Remember he's an animal first, then dog, then breed, then the name. All perfect sense, but you're right even in a pack environment, it makes no sense for already dominant dogs to waste their time and energy going over the same dominant behaviour when there's food to catch and predators to escape, the whole pack is needed for this to work. Piranhas will pick off the weaker of the school but there tend to be a lot more. Dogs would just deplete their pack.
> 
> James1 - If my wife ends up in hospital after an attack despite the changes we're making, I will come back to you and plead your forgiveness. If you kick a non-aggressive dog all day, assuming you don't kill it or render it unconscious, it will eventually bite you. In fact trap a rabbit or hamster, and it will bite... and who's ever seen an aggressive flop eared bunny rabbit?
> 
> According to you, he's an aggressive dog. He can't be rehomed as that will make things worse. Should he be put down?


yes......................


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

Do you think we can manage to keep this on track, and more importantly, Friendly please, otherwise i will be forced to close it, and i'm sure, as you keep reminding us, you dont like us closing threads.
Regards
3reddogs


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

slicksps said:


> In fact trap a rabbit or hamster, and it will bite... and who's ever seen an aggressive flop eared bunny rabbit?


LOL... I have.... quite a few as it happens! Rabbits can be surprisingly aggressive, I've owned some real horrors in the past, but I didn't rehome them or have them pts.

As said before, all dogs can bit given the right circumstances... they all have a bite threshold. If you tried to kick my dog, your foot would be in his mouth a millisecond after making contact with his body - he has lightning reactions, and being physically attacked crosses his defensive bite threshold.

And I echo the quote from others abut the CM programme - that show sticks in my mind more than any others, in fact it's spooky as I mentioned that exact bit to someone else yesterday. With that last sentence of his, he removed all the joy out of owning a dog for that owner. To dimiss the love and care our dogs have & show for us, as 'dominance', actually hurts me.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I would like to add a constructive opinion, on this issue as I like most members have been brought up with dogs, unfortunately I can't.

As a family we have only raised pups and even now the dog I have is 4.5 years raised from 8 weeks old he's a SBT. I am quietly confident he will not bite, under normal circumstances. However I have never tested him under extreme circumstances, nor would I.

If he had a low tollerance to close contact, unfortunately I wouldn't be able to keep him, nor would I put any other family at risk with that type of issue/problem.

I have been fortunate enough not to own a dog with that type of problem, or have I? I'm a believer in a dogs unwanted behaviour is down to the way it has been brought up.

I will hold my hands up I have never owned a rescue dog and it is unlikely I would ever choose to, simply because of the extra baggage that most of the time isn't apparent at the outset. I admire people who do.

imo There are circumstances when a dog is beyond re-training.

I will add my brother in law owns a rescue dog that really does have a low tollerance to contact, they have two children, young twins. It works for them. The children know to leave her alone, she chooses to avoid and will growl if you enter her space. She has never been tested and I can say with confidence she hasn't bite anyone.

The word that is missing is "yet", but that's the same for any family dog.


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## lady_r0gue (Jul 22, 2009)

This thread has got a bit ridiculous what with all the bickering... Luckily the OP seems to be on the right track - if he'd been a man of lesser intelligence who'd taken everybody's tuppence worth at face value he'd have probably shot the dog by now, evicted his wife and started a whole new thread in General Chat about Cesar flippin Milan.

Ok so I love a good banter, a bit of healthy debate - but cripes guys this post like some others is pretty serious so perhaps if people want to just exercise their grey cells they could start new threads, eg. "My personal views on dogs that bite" rather than boll*cking on on a thread where someone has asked for help...

If people ask for advice on a forum, like anywhere, they would usually hope to be given several opinions, often conflicting, so they can sift from them the best bits of advice, the information that's helpful for them. If people just post general bellyaches about other people's viewpoints and get personal it just makes the good advice harder to find amongst all the gasbagging.

I guess sometimes people find it easier to nitpick other people's opinions rather than offer any of their own?

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular... I just noticed a bit of p*ssing and whinging earlier on that irked me a bit! Don't get me wrong most of the replies here are valuable nuggets of information; snippets of people's own life experiences - but this thread is a prime example of how online, as well as in the real world - *everybody*'s got something to say when you've got a dog!

In James1's defense, I think he was the one suggesting that rehoming might be an option? I think it's borderer who thinks that if a dog bites it should be killed?

(Yes, ooh bad me, I said the 'k-word'. In my book the oh-so-sugary way of saying (and just to further mollify the point, _abbreviating!_) "PTS" _only_ applies when you're putting an animal out of it's misery; not when euthanising an animal as a quick 'fix' for behavioural problems)

*grits teeth, tries hard to refrain from blatant hypocrisy, aagh*


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I don;t think there is any bickering or whinging at all.

There are two distinct sides yes. One that says the owner should egt rid of the dog one way or another and the other side of things is giving various advice on methods but they are all points of view from each other's experience. 

I respect people's opinion and reaction if they wish to destroy a dog for any behaviour because it is their choice in the end but I will try and give suggestions of things to try and point out that the dog isn't a bad dog really.

The OP has decided on what they want to do and they did so avery short timeintot he thread so now on the back of that the thread is a discussion and ahealthy one at that. Nobody is calling anyone names or being rude so it's not tribal warfare or a witch hunt.

I have agreed with some of the things people have put on other threads but on this thread I have not agreed with. That's life. I don;t like some of my best mate's views on things and I think the opposite of them but it still doesn;t make us fall out and spit the dummy everytime we see eachother and talk about the topics, we have a healthy debate and are still laughing an smiling at the end of it.

Just becasue you don't like one charcteristic of someone or one view they have doesn't mean you don't like them it just means you don't agree with them on that bit. Even husbands and wives have different views ont hings but they still remain together. It would be very boring if we all agreed all of the time.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Fact is this dog is really at the last chance Inn, if his owners do not try and re habilitate him with serious training, and pass him onto a rescue, he will just take more baggaged into his new home, thats if he gets into a new home because most rescues will not take in a dog that has bitten now. so the only other option is to as mentioned kill him. I personally think any dog is forgiven for just 1 infaction, I am not taling about 1 vicious attack going back for multiple bites, this was 1 incident, 1 minor bite, one that wont happen again if a behaviourist is brought into the mix to assist, it will always be there at the back of the minds of the owner that the dog has the potential to bite as all other dogs do, but I am sure the owners will take the required steps to ensure this wont happen again. whats dogs trust saying,? give a dog a chance? maybe we should not blow this out of proportion.

Mo


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

Personally, depending on the surrounding which caused the dog to bite, ie unprovoked, spontaneous with full on aggression, I would have the dog destroyed (Killed). I would not be able to trust the dog, and in fairness I would be frightened of the dog.

If the dog is playing and accidentally bites, that a different thing altogether, if the dog is startled and bites to protect itself, I would see that as an accidental bite, and my approach was wrong (basically my own fault).

For me it would also depend on how the dog reacts after the bite. I would judge the dog's body language as to whether re-training was necessary or re-training would be an option.

I have scars on my hands where we have been playing tug he has released the toy and dive straight back at the toy, and caught my hand at the same time his grip has been intentionally stronger as he wants to win the game. He is now much more gentle and we haven't had any serious accidents since he grew out of puppy stage around a year old. He still does occasionally catch me but it hasn't broke the skin as he now inhibits his bite and he backs straight off.

When a dog bites it is really up to the owner to decide whether they can work with the dog or whether rehoming is an option, or whether the incident was serious enough deeming the dog to be a dangerous dog in which case the dog imo should be pts (killed). 

We all know a dog is fueled by your fear, I have personal experience of this too. I had a fear of dogs which caused even the docile of dogs to flex its muscles, bark and/or pin me to a fence or wall. Hesitant hand movements towards the dogs head to pat it, will cause a dog to become restless and look for the hand, which prompts the person to swiftly lift their hand, the dog may jump for the hand, making the person more timid of the dog.

Your voice, hand movements everything about you has to be confident, strong and direct, when handling or being around a dog. This is only my opinion.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

moboyd said:


> Fact is this dog is really at the last chance Inn, if his owners do not try and re habilitate him with serious training, and pass him onto a rescue, he will just take more baggaged into his new home, thats if he gets into a new home because most rescues will not take in a dog that has bitten now. so the only other option is to as mentioned kill him. I personally think any dog is forgiven for just 1 infaction, I am not taling about 1 vicious attack going back for multiple bites, this was 1 incident, 1 minor bite, one that wont happen again if a behaviourist is brought into the mix to assist, it will always be there at the back of the minds of the owner that the dog has the potential to bite as all other dogs do, but I am sure the owners will take the required steps to ensure this wont happen again. whats dogs trust saying,? give a dog a chance? maybe we should not blow this out of proportion.
> 
> Mo


You have put in a nutshell exactly what I was trying to say. :thumbup1: sorry I have run out of rep - I have given too much.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> I don;t think there is any bickering or whinging at all.
> 
> There are two distinct sides yes. One that says the owner should egt rid of the dog one way or another and the other side of things is giving various advice on methods but they are all points of view from each other's experience.
> 
> ...


There are 2 distict sides and there is the inbetween like my personal experience as mentioned in previous post where we were having our young dog p.t.s for aggression when adcice has been sought noone could give much hope and training, intense training for very profound issues was not an option for us. I dont feel ime a bad dog owner, but i was in a no win situation.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

You know what, this is precisely why when I had similar problems with Roo, I decided against rehoming him. I knew that if he happened to go to the minority (thank god) of the people on this thread, they would shunt him along to another home or have him PTS when there is in fact nothing wrong with him.

I genuinely can't believe what a couple of people have said in this thread, good on you OP for deciding what you have and for looking at ways to try and sort things.

Shadow has had his problems and hopefully OP and his wife can work on this with a behaviourist and they can sort things out, Shadow sounds a lovely character from what I have heard/read.

Rupert bit me on the arm a few months ago, maybe I should have had him put down. I mean then I wouldn't have to bother getting up extra early in the morning to give him his belly rub while he makes his Roo Roo noise and rolls about like a puppy 

When you told Roo to get out of a room and he wouldn't, he would flop down and show his teeth at you if you went to touch him, aggressive maybe? Well when I found out a few weeks later my brothers friend had picked him up by the scruff of the neck it all made sense 

He got defensive because my brothers would do nothing with him, and then expect him to do everything they asked of him when they came at him shouting and grabbing to pick him up, he was defensive and if I were him I would have acted the same.

They quite simply decided not to heed anything I told them and now have nothing to do with Rupert, and he has come on leaps and bounds ever since.

Good on you OP, there is much good advice in this thread and I think you know who the people are who have given *genuine* and good advice.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

lemmsy said:


> Hello,
> I don't deny that there is definately a social hierachy amongst dogs. Anyone with multi-dog households will have indeed noticed evidence of one dog being more strongwilled/ the boss etc...
> Studies have also shown that dogs, when meeting other dogs/canines that are not of their social group/pack will act on a very individual level by assessing how they will behave to said individual dog. This is why you will see one dog act rather cheekily/bossily towards one dog and then the same dog behave very respectfully to another.
> 
> ...


What is your explanation for a cat being dominant over a dog i.e being at the top? Many dogs take a submissive role to a cat. Dogs know what the cat is not one of them, so why does this relationship work?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Tinsley said:


> You know what, this is precisely why when I had similar problems with Roo, I decided against rehoming him. I knew that if he happened to go to the minority (thank god) of the people on this thread, they would shunt him along to another home or have him PTS when there is in fact nothing wrong with him.
> 
> I genuinely can't believe what a couple of people have said in this thread, good on you OP for deciding what you have and for looking at ways to try and sort things.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on a lot of what you have said my experience was very different circumstances dictated what we had to do and that was p.t.s luckily he was saved, unless it is a vicious attack badly mauling someone then we owe it to our dogs to give them the benefit of the doubt, thats what we did for longer than we should, but no i dont agree in most cases just jumping in and destroying is the answer but circumstances,family members has to come in to it.


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

lady_r0gue said:


> He'd have probably shot the dog by now, evicted his wife and started a whole new thread in General Chat about Cesar flippin Milan.


Don't tempt me 

I wouldn't say there's been bickering as such, lots of good arguments from different sides. I guess there can be aggressive bunnies but I've never experienced one. Maybe we're better at Bunny pack leaders than dog 

Days on, we've had no further problems. Yovina is showing no signs of infection so we're just waiting for it to heal up. Her trust is slowly being restored and we're spending more time with the dog as a three rather than a two. Shadow is reluctantly getting the hang of being on the floor. I snuck down at 6 this morning and caught him asleep on the sofa, as long as he's off when either of us are in the room, it should be enough to keep our authority. He's getting a bit rebellious to the rule change and his recall is slipping. When he saw I'd left the park and was sitting in the car, he quickly realised I meant business and joined me. That will be back on track soon. He's also started begging her at dinner which he's never done before. Continued ignoring and he stopped. Questioning her new authority or has she been sneaking crisps to him when I'm not looking. Perhaps I'll never know.

Being brave (or stupid), I'm trying to recreate what happened by disturbing him when he's asleep and had no reaction besides a 'what now' look and head slump... He's becoming sleep deprived but getting used to it :lol:


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> What is your explanation for a cat being dominant over a dog i.e being at the top? Many dogs take a submissive role to a cat. Dogs know what the cat is not one of them, so why does this relationship work?


Mmm- interesting question?
However what exactly do you mean by "a cat being dominant over a dog"? Your question IMO is somewhat a leading question.

But anyway:

Yes some dogs will act very avoidantly around resident cats, probably because they've been a bit over-enthusiastic in the past and ended up with a slap in the face from said cat. *The cat is not dominating the dog, just, from it's point of view, defending itself. *
Simularly, some dogs/cats just aren't bothered. My friend's dog and cat hardly acknowledge each other. And yet another friend's dog and cat get on like a house on fire- share the same bed etc... At times the dog has tried to play with the cat and the cat has reacted (defended itself in it's eyes) and dog is now respectful towards said cat and knows that being OTT results in a slap. *You've got to remember that cats are far more solitary animals, unlike dogs.*

The cat is not dominating the dog, it is just reacting as any cat (or any animal TBH) would.

Anyway LOL- this is waaaaayyyyy off topic!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

slicksps said:


> Don't tempt me
> 
> I wouldn't say there's been bickering as such, lots of good arguments from different sides. I guess there can be aggressive bunnies but I've never experienced one. Maybe we're better at Bunny pack leaders than dog
> 
> ...


I wouldn't really worry about him questioning/challenging your authority. He's just doing what he can get away with. Not being dominant.
Think of it from his point of view, sitting on sofa when you are around. Result is you remove him from the sofa. So he doesn't bother getting up on the sofa. When you are not around there is no one to remove him. Dogs are opportunists.
Had you thought of giving him a bed to put next to the sofa. Something/somewhere nice and comfy where he is allowed?

Simularly with regards to the begging. A special place (bed, mat, whatever) would be useful. Teach him to go to that place and do a down stay there. Reward him for doing so etc till you are at the point where he will just stay there happily. Our dog has a special mat/bed in the dining room to go and lie down on while we eat. When we've finished I'll say "ok" (his release command, although TBH he often has a rest/sleep while we're eating, so no need LOL ) and give him his own dinner (all ready to go in the kitchen) as a reward for lying on his mat nicely. Like I said though, often he's often asleep so we just feed him later. 



> He's getting a bit rebellious to the rule change and his recall is slipping. When he saw I'd left the park and was sitting in the car, he quickly realised I meant business and joined me.


Didn't you mention Shadow was about 18 months?
Sounds like he's being a bit of a teenager.

I think the main thing with recalls and walks generally is trying to make yourself more interesting than anything else. 
Is he toy/food motivated?
Lots of hide and seek type games would be good (something your wife could also do with him). Recall games. You and your wife calling him from one to the other, with the dog as a sort of piggy in the middle running between the two of you, being rewarded and generally having a good time.

This article is fantastic and defo. worth a read:
Why won't my dog come back? - David Ryan CCAB

Just a few ideas


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## CavGirl (Nov 15, 2009)

Some really good advice being shared here and some crazy opinions! lady_rogue totally feeling your annoyance hun! 

Your poor dog did not ask you to take it on! If you take a dog on he wasnt born aggressive or unsure its been created and by who? Only you can answer that was he in a home etc! I do commend you for trying to sort it out!

No dog should be killed over 1 minor bite! Dogs are not humans and do not premeditate a bite they react to stimulus!

The dog has warned your wife so it clearly doesnt trust your wife and she is the only one who can rectify that! You both need to create a safe stable environment so the dog can be a dog! A dog without boundaries will test you just like a child of around two years old would! And now its coming out in all areas of your lifes on the walk in the house! The dog is crying out for you to help it and is being ignored! 

Really things like this happen to teach us all something! This is not directed at anyone however i feel that maybe people need to really think before going out and buying a dog! Your responsible for the animals mental and physical well being! 

Personally i've always thought the government should issue a new law where by if an individual would like to take a dog on then they have to go sit a test and a training course and pass by 100% cause some people just are not cut out to be dog owners! 

The bottom line is in the wrong hands dogs can injure people! 

However i hope that for you and your wife if you do get rid of a misunderstood dog you dont get another dog cause the same thing could happen again!


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

Lemmsy - The down stay idea might work. I don't know about in the bedroom. In the past when I've had to shift him out of my spot, he thinks it's a game of rough and tumble (which it often turns out being). I find I have to pace the edge of the bed as he tries to find another spot to jump on and carry on playing. Eventually he realises he can't win and settles down only to join us 5 minutes later and sleeps at the foot. We've tried moving his bed in to the room but unless we stay awake all night, there's no way of keeping him off. We've resorted to just shutting the door. He whined at first for 10 mins before sleeping there, but after a couple of days he's gotten used to it. Occasionally I'm stirred awake by him sniffing underneath the door checking we've not left him but that's fading too. He is now only allowed into the bedroom under supervision and usually we do a sit-stay at the door. As long as he can see us pottering around, he happily waits for his reward. It is funny watching him be a teenager. Even though he's a dog, sometimes his strops and disobedience are very similar to the human teen. 

I have to admit, although I think it's cute him sleeping in the same bed, I don't miss the muddy paw prints on the sheets.

While out walking or playing, his recall is fine, but he knows when we're leaving and sometimes (usually once in a week) starts a mad sprint around. Usually I have the time to just wait for him to finish as it means he's burning off more energy than I realised he had. Toys, treats, excitement mean nothing to him in that state, although he soon figures out that he's not being chased, we're not playing any more and sheepishly comes back and sits in front of me. If I'm in a hurry or he's had enough time, I just walk away, he soon comes running.

Tinsley you're right, if there's no real aggression, the dog's not broken, we just need to readdress our own messages.

Someone suggested that neutering won't fix any bad habits... If my wife neutered me, I'd certainly change my habits!! and fast! :lol: but no, you're right, habit and permitted behaviours don't go away. Neutering just helps lower aggressive instincts, not learned behaviours. Shadow hasn't been stripped of his masculinity yet, just waiting for finances to settle as it's understandably not covered by his insurance.

CavGirl - "The bottom line is in the wrong hands dogs can injure people!"

Absolutely, even the most docile dog can be trained deliberately or accidentally into a dangerous dog. Likewise, as the dangerous-dogs-act opposers say, a dangerous dog can be trained to be docile. Obviously putting aside medical reasons for the aggression which unfortunately, but necessarily require a quick and painless death.

Just want to thank everyone again for your support, advice, discussions and arguments. It's good to know that most of you think we're doing the right thing, but also good to get the opposite arguments for consideration.

Although an unfortunate way to learn, Shadow had something to teach us. Before this I would have happily let my kid brother and sister play with him without batting a second glance. Now we've been reminded about his sharp end, I realise what a bad idea this would have been and they should be taught, watched and warned as if they were playing with scissors.


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## CavGirl (Nov 15, 2009)

slickps at least your owning the responsibility and taking the appropriate actions to help shadow and thats all anyone can do! Keep yir chin up and be positive that together you can move on and overcome this! 

Heres a lil story id like to share! my dad had never owned a dog before he bought us sasha a lil cavalier king charles! She was the sweetest natured dog ever and i never ever not for a second ever felt frightened of her. One day when i was 8 my sister dad and i were playing and he was tickling us and we were screaming get him sasha get him and he was making monster noises and gouding her and the next minute she nipped his finger! So who's fault was it? And it was the one and only time she did anything like that in 15 yrs!

It was our fault not hers! First time dog owners making a mistake we were just lucky she was a small dog with a small mouth! And that was a lesson learned! We changed it around to ensure we had a calm submissive dog she didnt even lift her head when the door bell rang she was so chilled out! And you can do that too! Good luck!


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

slicksps said:


> Don't tempt me
> I wouldn't say there's been bickering as such, lots of good arguments from different sides. I guess there can be aggressive bunnies but I've never experienced one. Maybe we're better at Bunny pack leaders than dog


This might have some truth


slicksps said:


> Days on, we've had no further problems. Yovina is showing no signs of infection so we're just waiting for it to heal up. Her trust is slowly being restored and we're spending more time with the dog as a three rather than a two.


There is no trust that has ever been restored after a dog has bitten your face especially after only a few days if that. Im surprised youve let him into the same room so quickly


slicksps said:


> Shadow is reluctantly getting the hang of being on the floor. I snuck down at 6 this morning and caught him asleep on the sofa, as long as he's off when either of us are in the room, it should be enough to keep our authority.


Thats not enough to keep what authority you had (if any) im afraid 


slicksps said:


> He's getting a bit rebellious to the rule change and his recall is slipping.


Youve only just implemented this rule, this would not have affected recall in the least, I expect this has been going on since a couple of weeks after you got him? Attend some good training lessons (lab gundog), ideally with her taking them, the expense over conventional training is very worthwhile.


slicksps said:


> When he saw I'd left the park and was sitting in the car, he quickly realised I meant business and joined me. That will be back on track soon. He's also started begging her at dinner which he's never done before. Continued ignoring and he stopped. Questioning her new authority or has she been sneaking crisps to him when I'm not looking. Perhaps I'll never know.


- You sitting in a car waiting for him to turn up says nothing about you meaning business. Think about it, you didnt tell him off - he turned up when he wanted to, and everything was forgot before you got home. 
- If she is giving him food you cannot blame her, its the easiest way to get a dog on-side, though after a situation like this you dont want to be rewarding dominance which very easily could be.


slicksps said:


> Being brave (or stupid), I'm trying to recreate what happened by disturbing him when he's asleep and had no reaction besides a 'what now' look and head slump... He's becoming sleep deprived but getting used to it :lol:


I did say to do this to see if the reaction was to her or you. It does sound like the problem is between him and her. The 'what do you want now look' could easily be misinterpreted - he could simply see that it is you and not be reacting, I wouldnt let you wife or a child do this. Go to a trainer.

Im not going to post on this again as I could really pick bones with every approach your taking alongside your interpretation of what is being said. So all the very best.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

james1 said:


> There is no trust that has ever been restored after a dog has bitten your face especially after only a few days if that. Im surprised youve let him into the same room so quickly


And how would you know anything about that, you aren't his chap or his wife, are you?



james1 said:


> Youve only just implemented this rule, this would not have affected recall in the least, I expect this has been going on since a couple of weeks after you got him? Attend some good training lessons (lab gundog), ideally with her taking them, the expense over conventional training is very worthwhile.


He has already said he is intending to see a behaviourist who I am sure will advise him of the best route of action.



james1 said:


> - You sitting in a car waiting for him to turn up says nothing about you meaning business. Think about it, you didnt tell him off - he turned up when he wanted to, and everything was forgot before you got home.
> - If she is giving him food you cannot blame her, its the easiest way to get a dog on-side, though after a situation like this you dont want to be rewarding dominance which very easily could be.


-Firstly, what is he meant to do, start shouting and screaming at his dog for coming back like he is meant to? You can't tell a dog off if it isn't coming back because it wont want to come back to you..!
-Secondly dogs live in the moment they don't take a treat being a reward for something that happened a period of time ago.



james1 said:


> Im not going to post on this again as I could really pick bones with every approach your taking alongside your interpretation of what is being said.


As I could with yours...At least you are calling Shadow 'him' now as opposed to 'it' though..!


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

Tell the dog off? I would have to wait for him to return to tell him off, in his eyes I'm then telling him off for returning.

Unless you expect me to start screaming in the park... that will make him want to come back...


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

slicksps said:


> Tell the dog off? I would have to wait for him to return to tell him off, in his eyes I'm then telling him off for returning.
> 
> Unless you expect me to start screaming in the park... that will make him want to come back...


My thoughts exactly 

Hopefully things will come together and your behaviourist will back up the good bits in this thread :thumbup1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re post #37 - rainybow

>> Two... essential things we did...

1) We got the child doing a lot of basic training with him to establish trust and respect on both sides, I also ensured the children left him alone outside of this training.

2) I studied Oscars body language so i know it inside out. I can spot if he is uncomfortable with a situation before even he realises he is now and remove him or draw his attention elsewhere. << 
>

Good on ya! :thumbup1:

i agree that having older-kids help train is excellent - 
(So Long As the training is positive-reinforcement, NOT punitive!, of course). 
also giving any and all pets a safe zone that kids cannot invade, is a good practice; i cannot tell U how many times i hear parents *brag!* about Quote, _ s/he is just so goo-ood with the children... _ and all too often, as they are cooing, i am watching one of the much-loved children torment the dog!! ---- who, of course, is spozed to TOLERATE this treatment. 

among the worst was a pudgy 3-YO who was =Riding the Back= of a prone, elderly F-Boxer, who HAD * DYSPLASTIC * HIPS and spinal arthritis!!??, 
as the poor dog lay on thin, un-supportive outdoor-carpet over concrete...

can U say * Ouch!! ?* 

had that been MY kid, he would have been lifted abruptly OFF the dog, set down smartly on a chair, told Just How Bad a thing that was, and left to think about his sins on that same chair, in the corner... 
while i checked over the poor dog. 
as it was, his mother continued her conversation with me - which i interrupted by insisting she peel her son off her suffering dog, and please baby-gate the dog beyond toddler reach... which she did, AFTER protesting again how Good her dog is with the child! :yikes:

children do things thoughtlessly or in anger, and the younger the child, the more likely this is to happen - the age of reason is around 7-YO in kids, but i would bump that up to 10-YO on many children re Empathy, as they simply do not get it, yet. 
boys are *Ten Times!! * as likely to be bitten as _*Same Age*_ girls - Boys tend to do more things that trigger bites, or make bites far-worse. Poking, teasing, wrestling, grabbing, chasing, pinching, tugging objects away from the dog (stealing toys, bones, food...), etc, are all done with loud vigor by many boys.

also, just as *rainybow* notes, KNowing + Noticing when the dog is nearing their limit, or is not comfy with the situation, and INTERVENING before anyone gets hurt, is crucial.

kids + pets should never be together, Un-Supervised. 
it can take seconds for something very bad to happen, and without an adult THERE who actually observes what happened, we may never know what was the actual sequence of events. 
i have *been there* when a child tells their parents a total cock-n-bull story about WHY the dog bit him... because i had SEEN him teasing the dog from my 3rd floor balcony, came all the way down to their front door, and was in time to hear their 9-YO boy exclaim tearfully that *_he bit me... sob..._ 
then >> I << told them what their son had been doing for the previous 10-minutes of increasingly-serious abuse, which culminated with KICKING the sitting dog in the belly, who then chased him across the yard to the door, and by that time, i was on the ground, running for their front door (and mad as a hornet, i can tell U!) 

they later got rid of the dog - (snort) 
had he been my son, i would have asked relatives to raise him! :shocked: 
a FIVE-year old who teases a dog is one thing - 
a NINE-year-old is way past my tolerance level. at that age, the child IS aware of their actions. 

but younger kids do things in all innocence that can get them hurt - _fast!_ only by alert and aware Adult supervision, and consistent prevention or interruption of inappropriate behavior, while teaching kids the right things to do, can we assure that both our pets and our children are safe, and enjoying each others company. :thumbup1:

kids + pets are great together -- but not without an Adult minding them!  
happy kids, happy pets... watchful parents! 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted by slicksps
> Maybe we're better at Bunny pack leaders than dog





james1 said:


> This might have some truth


 Briefly off topic but might be of interest to anyone who ever has behavioural issues with rabbits - they don't have pack leaders, as they have a circular and fluid hierarchy with no one bunny in charge of all. Watership Down got it wrong!


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

CavGirl said:


> Some really good advice being shared here and some crazy opinions! lady_rogue totally feeling your annoyance hun!
> 
> Your poor dog did not ask you to take it on! If you take a dog on he wasnt born aggressive or unsure its been created and by who? Only you can answer that was he in a home etc! I do commend you for trying to sort it out!
> 
> ...


I am agreement with you but am taking note that the OP is sticking with helping the dog through the issue now that the initial reaction has had time to subside.

It`s so vital that people listen when a dog gives a warning that they feel uncomfortable about someone/something in any situation, no dog bites for no reason, *ever*, whether a behavioural issue or a medical/pain cause there are warnings, whether a growl and posture/demeanour or just posture/demeanour, no matter how slight, ie in the case of dogs which have been prevented with punishment for vocalising their discomfort with a growl or grumble or have learned that their vocalisation will just be ignored and they will continue to be pushed with something they can`t cope with.

For some yes a well meaning cuddle or other close contact ie kiss on the head/side of face/behind ear, or a touch they were`nt expecting etc can be overwhelming or frightening/threatening and if they can`t escape it - or *feel* they can`t escape it - and a grumble is ignored, they only have one recourse, to bite.

It`s up to us as their keepers to figure out what has been done that has caused a dog to feel the only way to defend themselves is to bite and to rectify that in ourselves or the situation, we should`nt be expecting dogs to just know we don`t want them to bite, we need to treat them with the respect and understanding that stops them needing to do so and to stop blaming them for needing to defend themselves in the first place when a humans error judgement has been made.

*In any sudden behaviour change, especially involving displays of aggression, for which there is no `apparent` cause then something medical is highly probable so a vet visit to ascertain or rule out pain/injury/thyroid imbalance/other outwardly non-obvious physical issue, may be involved.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Tinsley said:


> And how would you know anything about that, you aren't his chap or his wife, are you?
> 
> He has already said he is intending to see a behaviourist who I am sure will advise him of the best route of action.
> 
> ...


sorry for posting but the above is exactly why you should consider all arguments to this as people are believing they are giving the right advice when infact they are not doing you any favours at all.

1/ There are many behaviourists. You pay a lot of money (75 pounds +) for maybe up to 2 hrs of work. There are some very bad ones out there! I sincerely hope no one will disagree with that.
2/ A gundog trainer who deals with labs - knows exactly how to handle the breed. They deal with them every day so know the very best techniques. A behaviourist deals with hundreds of different breeds so only know general techniques. Dog breeds often need specialist training i.e. the approach youd use for a springer is not the same as that what youd use for a Leonberger. I sincerely hope no one disagrees with that.
3/ Food is what can only be described as doggy heaven. If they are being given food without any action presented or asked for - you are giving them reward for doing as they are. If he is demanding food (something which takes knowledge to understand as there are many ways to demand) then you are reinforcing personality not appropriate behaviour. He will think he is the boss of you, when you should be making him work for it. I hope no one disagrees with this
4/ there is no point in arguing if the only point your making is to verbalise thoughts - the OP doesnt know what they are doing with any dog never mind one that bites so you are reinforcing his actions with general thoughts.

I expect if we had all said - re home him at the start the dog would have been gone by now. He himself had inclination to rehome it (for just reason) though as people have diluted the situation he has now justified keeping it.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Just remind us how many dogs you've trained completely on your own, and what you've trained them to do again, would you James?


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

If ok I would still like to know the history of Shadow being re homed 4 times, i may have missed the info so bear with me, but may be the dog has done similar before, if so this will help any behaviouralist that gets involved have a better angle on the dog. If you dont have it could the rescue centre you got him from give you the info and what have they said about his behaviour, they should still have an interest in the dog.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Just remind us how many dogs you've trained completely on your own, and what you've trained them to do again, would you James?


with or without a water pistol do you mean?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

james1 said:


> with or without a water pistol do you mean?


I don't understand how or where you get off on being so provocative, even when it's crystal clear you don't have a clue. I know you've already had a warning, James - don't push it....


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

I am now going to close this thread.
I think the OP has got all the advice they could possibly need.
Good luck with your dog.


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