# Why your dog should eat raw



## Guest (Oct 1, 2013)

You only need to read this article which is great 
Is pet food poisoning our dogs? | Mail Online

At the end of the day you feed your dog what suits, your pocket and your dog its not for everyone.

But at the end of the day dogs are made to eat Bones and meat not processed foods. If a dog is unable to make the switch to whats supposed to eat it makes you wonder even more whats going in these commercial brands that stops the dog from making that switch.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Already a thread on it.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/328691-pet-food-actually-poisoning-our-dogs.html


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

I think raw is probably the best way of feeding but it's not always practicable for everyone however there are so many better alternatives to the mainstream food having read about them for a few weeks its pretty horrific what goes in some of them.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I put the dogs on vets kitchen for a couple of days recently because I couldn't get to the butcher so my daughter bought kibble. Goodness, what came out of them and the smell from it was atrocious. Makes you wonder why there's so much waste and obviously indigestible material going straight through. As raw feeders know there is very little waste when feeding meat and bones, so it speaks for itself really doesn't it?


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## Donut76 (May 15, 2013)

Angel is atm on Half & Half & we are just keeping an eye on things - we cant afford to go full raw (i would need to use a supplier as there are no butchers within a reasonable distance - buy a bigger freezer of which i have no room for & i would stress like hell over amounts & balance)

Since the half & half (applaws) her ummmmm poopies (as my girls call it) have defenatly reduced & are much better & she seems much happier

I liken most kibble foods to giving my hyper 8yr old Rainbow drops everyday - NOT a good thing in any respect  (tho i am tempted to do this on Friday just before a meeting with her teacher when i can then say NOW you know why i am SO STRICT on what she eats ) haha


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

Donut76 said:


> Angel is atm on Half & Half & we are just keeping an eye on things - we cant afford to go full raw (i would need to use a supplier as there are no butchers within a reasonable distance - buy a bigger freezer of which i have no room for & i would stress like hell over amounts & balance)
> 
> Since the half & half (applaws) her ummmmm poopies (as my girls call it) have defenatly reduced & are much better & she seems much happier
> 
> I liken most kibble foods to giving my hyper 8yr old Rainbow drops everyday - NOT a good thing in any respect  (tho i am tempted to do this on Friday just before a meeting with her teacher when i can then say NOW you know why i am SO STRICT on what she eats ) haha


Your feeding your dog applepaws? Its one of the good ones because you can actually see bits of chicken in it. But if you can find a DAF supplier it would work out much cheaper.

blocks of mince are between 65p and 80p to feed my dog it costs me around 30-40p a day as she eats about half a 454g pack a day it work works out considerably cheaper then feeding her any commercial brand.


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## kateh8888 (Aug 9, 2011)

All of ours are raw feed and would never go back to kibble.


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## Donut76 (May 15, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Your feeding your dog applepaws? Its one of the good ones because you can actually see bits of chicken in it. But if you can find a DAF supplier it would work out much cheaper.
> 
> blocks of mince are between 65p and 80p to feed my dog it costs me around 30-40p a day as she eats about half a 454g pack a day it work works out considerably cheaper then feeding her any commercial brand.


I know it would most likely be cheeper but i would stress so much that i had worked the quantities out correct - ATM we are just on Raw Chicken w/out bones & she is doing well - she has also had tuna steak (mine that i dropped before i could cook it lol) she likes basically everything she is given LOL my little dustbin

We are new to the Raw thing & took my hubby some convincing (i have a Raw curious post on here somewhere that i should update)

We will get there


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Malmum said:


> I put the dogs on vets kitchen for a couple of days recently because I couldn't get to the butcher so my daughter bought kibble. Goodness, what came out of them and the smell from it was atrocious. Makes you wonder why there's so much waste and obviously indigestible material going straight through. As raw feeders know there is very little waste when feeding meat and bones, so it speaks for itself really doesn't it?


I would disagree with this. You changed food suddenly. Mine are on commercial food, always have been and always will be though I do give them other food sometimes too. I gave them a meal of raw and it ran out of the other end. Disgusting it was. They will not touch the packets of raw mince stuff either and anything but Wainwrights upsets Toffee. They get a tiny bit of chicken in their meal but get it cooked. Their normal poos are very small and well formed to the point of hardness.

How come everything else the Daily Mail says about dogs is dissed but because a few people agree with feeding raw this article must be true.

Feed what suits you and your dog but please do not make out that those that are feeding commercial foods are damaging their dogs.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I would disagree with this. You changed food suddenly. Mine are on commercial food, always have been and always will be though I do give them other food sometimes too. I gave them a meal of raw and it ran out of the other end. Disgusting it was. They will not touch the packets of raw mince stuff either and anything but Wainwrights upsets Toffee. They get a tiny bit of chicken in their meal but get it cooked. Their normal poos are very small and well formed to the point of hardness.
> 
> How come everything else the Daily Mail says about dogs is dissed but because a few people agree with feeding raw this article must be true.
> 
> Feed what suits you and your dog but please do not make out that those that are feeding commercial foods are damaging their dogs.


Forgive me for being ignorant but isn't that a bit like saying I have all ways fed my child a KFC his whole life now I have changed it to good fresh food he wont accept it?

I guess my arguement is that a lot of commcercial brands have things in them that make dogs hooked to them. Raw is something you have to give time imagine what its like for junkies to come clean and I think the switch to raw from commercial is very similar for dogs (not all though)

I am not saying anyone is bad for feeding commercial foods just that its not the right food for dogs but because the companies say they are complete we seem to believe them.

Their are quite a number of myths about commercial foods that everyone is happy to believe as long as it suits their pocket and their dog.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Prowl said:


> Forgive me for being ignorant but isn't that a bit like saying I have all ways fed my child a KFC his whole life now I have changed it to good fresh food he wont accept it?
> 
> I guess my arguement is that a lot of commcercial brands have things in them that make dogs hooked to them. Raw is something you have to give time imagine what its like for junkies to come clean and I think the switch to raw from commercial is very similar for dogs (not all though)
> 
> ...


I wouldnt touch a huge majority of commercial foods but they cannot all be put in the same category and that's what happens a lot of the time. E.g. Bakers and Orijen kibbles are poles apart. As are Pedigree and Butchers wet for that matter.

If you do your homework, I dont see that using a good quality commercial wet or kibble has any more risks than raw. You still rely on the source of your meats being problem free.

I rely on manufacturers to provide a balanced food for my dog and am much happier to do that than play around with it myself. Judging by output alone is far from reliable for me.

Yes, raw is their most natural food but if fed a good quality balanced commercial food who's to say raw is actually better? I v much doubt a pk of raw mince is any better for Heidi than her can of wet food.

Just my opinion of course


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Blitz said:


> How come everything else the Daily Mail says about dogs is dissed but because a few people agree with feeding raw this article must be true.


Actually you'll find the contents of stories are dissed, especially dogs and politics when they don't match what people agree with with people agree with, shouting out.. it's the Daily Fail. Its also supported though when it matches viewpoints but that's not as noticeable.

Like all things it needs to be read with an open mind and not automatically be taken to be true or false, just as anything on the internet should be. If a story catches your interest.. research it more from different sources.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Forgive me for being ignorant but isn't that a bit like saying I have all ways fed my child a KFC his whole life now I have changed it to good fresh food he wont accept it?
> 
> I guess my arguement is that a lot of commcercial brands have things in them that make dogs hooked to them. Raw is something you have to give time imagine what its like for junkies to come clean and I think the switch to raw from commercial is very similar for dogs (not all though)
> 
> ...


Oh for goodness sake, stop perpetrating such utter nonsense. It's no wonder those awful owners who feed their commercial dog food get a bit uptight when they read dross like this. You ARE implying that people are wrong for feeding commercial dog food - if you cannot see that then I suggest reading your posts more thoroughly.

Comparing commercial food to KFC. Rubbish. Based on what? there are good foods and there are bad foods, exactly the same as you can feed a good raw diet and you can feed a bad raw diet.

Comparing a dog fed on commercial food to a drug addict? oh dear.

As I said in the other thread, feeding raw isn't some kind of Holy Grail for all dogs and their owners. And yes, I have fed raw and no my dog didn't look or act any different. In fact he looked better on kibble - shock horror! I know other people who have had the same experience, too.

Not everyone has the extra freezer space or indeed wants to faff around with defrosting meat, sorting out deliveries, deciding what to feed the dog eat day, handling raw meat daily etc. Why would I bother when my dogs do absolutely fine on commercial food, which requires no effort?

Personally I would rather take agenda with those who are mistreating their dogs than focusing on dog food snobbery. Life is too short to pick apart what others choose to feed their dogs.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

labradrk said:


> Oh for goodness sake, stop perpetrating such utter nonsense. It's no wonder those awful owners who feed their commercial dog food get a bit uptight when they read dross like this. You ARE implying that people are wrong for feeding commercial dog food - if you cannot see that then I suggest reading your posts more thoroughly.
> 
> Comparing commercial food to KFC. Rubbish. Based on what? there are good foods and there are bad foods, exactly the same as you can feed a good raw diet and you can feed a bad raw diet.
> 
> ...


I guess I must aggree to disagree in this case but I can't help compairing the two.

Incase your wondering I certainly don't think people who choose to feed commercial are bad owners anymore then I think parents who feed their kids on Mcdonalds, KFC and TV dinners are bad.

All circomstances are different but I can still disagree with it.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I guess I must aggree to disagree in this case *but I can't help compairing the two. *
> 
> Incase your wondering *I certainly don't think people who choose to feed commercial are bad owners anymore then I think parents who feed their kids on Mcdonalds, KFC and TV dinners are bad. *
> 
> All circomstances are different but I can still disagree with it.


And there we go again spouting nonsensical rubbish.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Think everyone should be able to make their own choice and not be made to feel like they are doing wrong by their dog, or care less about their dogs than those who feed raw.

Some commercial food are bad, some are really good, some people do more damage to their dog feeding raw, because people push them in to raw without them doing the proper research on it :nonod:

I'd rather a dog be fed a good quality kibble or wet than be fed raw incorrectly.

As long as your dog is fit an health who give a fiddlers what it's fed?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Think everyone should be able to make their own choice and not be made to feel like they are doing wrong by their dog, or care less about their dogs than those who feed raw.
> 
> Some commercial food are bad, some are really good, some people do more damage to their dog feeding raw, because people push them in to raw without them doing the proper research on it :nonod:
> 
> ...


Completely agree!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Prowl, I made this thread yesterday, http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/328719-what-do-you-feed.html, can you honestly say that any of those commercially fed dogs look in bad health?

Raw is not for everyone. Freddie used to look amazing on kibble and I thought he'd look epic on raw. He does -not-.
Bradley has had ear issues for a few weeks, but in the week that I gave him some cooked meals and some kibble, they've cleared up.
I have seen no size increase in their poo, the two fatties have finally lost some weight, and Pip's teeth are getting cleaner.

Again, raw is not for everyone, and they should not be made to feel like scum for feeding what does suit them.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

My two are fed Lily's Kitchen Breakfast Crunch for breakfast (obviously) and Applaws at tea time. Bedtime treats are Fish4dogs wraps or sea jerky tiddlers.

Every time I take them to the vets he comments on what lovely condition they are in. They have never had any raw meat in their lives so I think you are being very unfair to owners who don't want to feed raw for whatever reason. I for one will not be made to feel guilty for what I choose to feed my dogs. They are thriving and that is all that matters to me.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Prowl said:


> I guess I must aggree to disagree in this case but I can't help compairing the two.
> 
> Incase your wondering I certainly don't think people who choose to feed commercial are bad owners anymore then I think parents who feed their kids on Mcdonalds, KFC and TV dinners are bad.
> 
> All circomstances are different but I can still disagree with it.


I agree that some commercial food can be compared to feeding a child KFC... but I think there's also some that be compared to feeding an M&S extra special, organic ready meal.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Most people will feed their dogs according to what they can afford, their circumstances & also for convenience.

I am lucky in that I have the room for a large chest freezer, I have a great butcher, I can also get great quality mince & other foods from the trainer I see, I don't mind raw meat, I am not squeamish when chopping up & bagging up portions, etc.

For me raw feeding works out alot cheaper but it doesn't for some people. It is also a pain when suppliers let them down, as has happened to a few people I know & they have to buy meat until they get their deliveries so is not always as easy as made out.

My two were fed Orijen before I made the switch to raw so it's hardly like they were being fed the equivalent of KFC for dogs!


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## soulful dog (Nov 6, 2011)

Jeez this thread is depressing.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

soulful dog said:


> Jeez this thread is depressing.




Am I missing something? Why 'depressing'?


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

sharloid said:


> I agree that some commercial food can be compared to feeding a child KFC... but I think there's also some that be compared to feeding an M&S extra special, organic ready meal.


:wink:

I have seen a few good quality ones but I can't bring myself to switch knowing its not the best I can feed my dog and it will work out more expensive.

I once fed her Butchers so I can have alternative incase she needs to go to a boarding that does not have the facilities for raw diets and Millie refused to eat it o.0''

She will have apple paws the [email protected] Dellie range and Natures Menue pouches thats about it she tolorates them to a point but definately prefers her raw.

Before I switched competely I tried her on Natures Diet and she chucked it back up moments later.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Do I believe commercial food shortens the average lifespan of an average dog... Yes
I feed raw for this reason. It's not the be all and end all though and there are no guarantees it will change anything it's just me trying to tip the scales more in my dog's favor. At the same time, unless something is conclusively proven, who is to say commercial foods aren't actually better? I'd much rather support people feeding X so long as they consider what X contains. Raw isn't for everyone.



Gemmaa said:


> Prowl, I made this thread yesterday, http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/328719-what-do-you-feed.html, can you honestly say that any of those commercially fed dogs look in bad health?


You miss the point.. It's not necessarily short term effects but those long term. Are you increasing the risk of cancer, diabetes and other illnesses? Is your dog going to age/die earlier? I've seen only one statistical study which indicates this is the case and heard of another but haven't found it in detail. On the flip side I have not seen anything which shows commercial foods are better for the long term health and extend lifespan in comparison. Only way to do this is to have long term huge scale studies. It will not happen.

The whole "what to feed" is an area full of opinions.. what's important is people are aware of the options available.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I wouldn't feed raw. Not as a whole diet and it isn't because of budget. There are certain things I don't like about it, no matter how many times it is said it is safe.

I think it's insulting and offensive to compare feeding a commercial food to feeding children KFC. It is whatever suits a dog.

I have to say that raw isn't the only good diet and give dogs good health and a long life.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> I wouldn't feed raw. Not as a whole diet and it isn't because of budget. There are certain things I don't like about it, no matter how many times it is said it is safe.
> 
> I think it's insulting and offensive to compare feeding a commercial food to feeding children KFC. It is whatever suits a dog.
> 
> I have to say that raw isn't the only good diet and give dogs good health and a long life.


Most are though.

A tiney handfull of comercial brands have good honest ingrediants thats the sad thing. Dog food should be more then it is you pay for.


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## soulful dog (Nov 6, 2011)

Coffee said:


> Am I missing something? Why 'depressing'?


Two reasons. Firstly, because some people are reading an article in a newspaper that is notorious for making outlandish claims about all sorts of things causing you cancer or killing you (or your pets), and not just dismissing it as a vague, OTT story.

Secondly, it's leading to some pretty vague assumptions, ie raw is good, commercial food is bad and that's the end of it. It's obviously not quite so simple and quite so black & white.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

soulful dog said:


> Two reasons. Firstly, because some people are reading an article in a newspaper that is notorious for making outlandish claims about all sorts of things causing you cancer or killing you (or your pets), and not just dismissing it as a vague, OTT story.
> 
> Secondly, it's leading to some pretty vague assumptions, ie raw is good, commercial food is bad and that's the end of it. It's obviously not quite so simple and quite so black & white.


I don't think when their is so much cash to be made in commcercial food we ever find out the truth.

This article I find interesting because all though its published by a newspaper famed for exadurating the truth the article is writtern by dog owners who have gone to the trouble of doing a lot of research so it really makes you think more when it comes to the age old debate of is raw or commercial foods better for your dog?


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

No wonder people can sometimes take the stance that raw feeders on here are bullies who force their opinions down others throats! Good lord, get a grip Prowl! You have no more idea what goes into your packet of commercially prepared raw mince, than those feeding cans of wet or bags of kibble do!!


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

SixStar said:


> No wonder people can sometimes take the stance that raw feeders on here are bullies who force their opinions down others throats! Good lord, get a grip Prowl! You have no more idea what goes into your packet of commercially prepared raw mince, than those feeding cans of wet or bags of kibble do!!


Its meat and you can tell especially if it has kidney or liver 0.o''
Or god forbid tripe!!

One of the reasons I feed is because I can infact tell what is going in my dogs bowl their is a distinct look between meats and I was able to identify that I had been given the wrong order because the minces did not look like what I had ordered and neither did the chunks or bones.

So yes you can actually tell what meat is what you can't tell at all what goes into most commercial brands.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Prowl said:


> Its meat and you can tell especially if it has kidney or liver 0.o''
> Or god forbid tripe!!


You have no idea what parts of the animal it contains? No idea at all about the way it is produced and manufactured? No idea what is added to it? Like I say, no more in the know about your dogs food than those feeding from tins or bags!


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

I don't feed raw, and don't plan to and my dog is doing just fine, on a very high quality food, raw is not for everyone, and it doesn't make someone a bad owner for not feeding it, it also doesn't mean that their dog is hooked on junk either.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

SixStar said:


> You have no idea what parts of the animal it contains? No idea at all about the way it is produced and manufactured? No idea what is added to it? Like I say, no more in the know about your dogs food than those feeding from tins or bags!


Then how come I new my raw order had been mixed up??

You have to be pretty dim if you can't tell the difference between lamb and beef. If I felt it was anything but I would not bother feeding it.

Meat has completely different texture even in chunk form you can tell whats what.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Then how come I new my raw order had been mixed up??
> 
> You have to be pretty dim if you can't tell the difference between lamb and beef. If I felt it was anything but I would not bother feeding it.
> 
> Meat has completely different texture even in chunk form you can tell whats what.


Wow, you are clever if you can tell what parts of an animal is in a mince!

You have no idea if there is added salt or any chemicals.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Wow, you are clever if you can tell what parts of an animal is in a mince!
> 
> You have no idea if there is added salt or any chemicals.


Well actually you do because if it was in their its listed on the website or on the packet. They have to list their ingrediants just as commercial foods do.

Why on earth would they need to add salt anyway? What chemicals do you think goes into raw??

Your more likely to find such things in commercial foods then in raw it doesn't need added products which is why I prefer not to buy complete raw brands like NI and Nutriments.

The whole point of raw is that it is natural nothing is added because it doesn't need it.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Prowl said:


> Then how come I new my raw order had been mixed up??
> 
> You have to be pretty dim if you can't tell the difference between lamb and beef. If I felt it was anything but I would not bother feeding it.
> 
> Meat has completely different texture even in chunk form you can tell whats what.


:lol: That wasn't quite what I meant!

My point was that your dogs raw minced food is prepared in a factory, out of sight, by unknown people, as part of a mass produced line of goods - in just the same way as tinned foods and kibbles are.

You are saying we cannot trust tinned/kibble manufacturers to be honest with us about what goes into foods - how can you trust a manufacturer of raw food to be? They are manufacturing a commercial dog food too - only difference is that your commercially prepared food is raw, and the tinned/kibble foods are cooked.

Just as anything can be added to tinned/kibble without being declaring (going by your line of thought) - the same can be done with your commercially prepared raw food. I am not talking about being told a food is beef when it is really lamb - I am talking about things such as additives, chemicals, water, fillers etc - being added. The food is minced up beyond recognition, you have no idea what has been added


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Changing the subject slightly.. what I don't like with any commercial product (includes commercial raw) is the lack of information. We have ingredient labels with ingredients split (confusing) as one example. Contacting commercial raw vendors you may get it contains X% offal one time and Y% another. Makes you wonder how much is driven by beancounters and if there is a policy to decieve.

On the flip side a post recently had Orijin customer support advising not to change to their food as the dog in question was ill. This shows how some commercial companies do actually care.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Well actually you do because if it was in their its listed on the website or on the packet. They have to list their ingrediants just as commercial foods do.
> 
> Why on earth would they need to add salt anyway? What chemicals do you think goes into raw??
> 
> ...


What Sixstar said.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

SixStar said:


> :lol: That wasn't quite what I meant!
> 
> My point was that your dogs raw minced food is prepared in a factory, out of sight, by unknown people, as part of a mass produced line of goods - in just the same way as tinned foods and kibbles are.
> 
> ...


Thats the brilliant thing with raw you can tell whats been added because you could smell it if anything. I dont feed prize choice or MVM because I find them very bloody or watery.

Because its not been processed with an inch of it existence and its fresh you could tell if something had been added you could smell it or nottice the difference.

If you look at complete raw foods like NI its quite mushy/liquidy not like DAF.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Point is noticed and appreciated .

Knowing what's in the minces?
I've had to throw out a bag of wings that were absolutely covered in bruises and had bright green patches on them.
What's to say you're not feeding minces made from meat with tumors and the same quality of meat that gets people up in arms about commercial food?

Should we really feed things that have shot in them? Would it be okay if people found shot in commercial foods?

Same as people that feed gone off meat. Why? Where is the goodness in it? How is that any better for the animal, than a good quality dry/wet food?


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Prowl said:


> Thats the brilliant thing with raw you can tell whats been added because you could smell it if anything. I dont feed prize choice or MVM because I find them very bloody or watery.
> 
> Because its not been processed with an inch of it existence and its fresh you could tell if something had been added you could smell it or nottice the difference.
> 
> If you look at complete raw foods like NI its quite mushy/liquidy not like DAF.


How on _earth_ could you tell if any additives, salt, flavour enhancers, cariogens, preservatives had been added?! You are truly wasted sitting on this forum if you can dissect what goes into a food by sight and smell alone!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Thats the brilliant thing with raw you can tell whats been added because you could smell it if anything. I dont feed prize choice or MVM because I find them very bloody or watery.
> 
> Because its not been processed with an inch of it existence and its fresh you could tell if something had been added you could smell it or nottice the difference.
> 
> If you look at complete raw foods like NI its quite mushy/liquidy not like DAF.


Are you kidding. Do you know some chemicals have no smell?


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Are you kidding. Do you know some chemicals have no smell?


They would have to list them just as commercial foods do.

What kinds of chemicals are you talking about??

Surely thier is a notticable differnece if something is wrong or different?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Prowl said:


> They would have to list them just as commercial foods do.
> 
> What kinds of chemicals are you talking about??
> 
> Surely thier is a notticable differnece if something is wrong or different?


Should they? Yes.

Do they? Not always.

I'm sure many people didn't read their food had horse meat in it, but it did. Company's lie everyday.

How could you tell if the food have preservatives in it?


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Prowl said:


> They would have to list them just as commercial foods do.
> 
> What kinds of chemicals are you talking about??
> 
> Surely thier is a notticable differnece if something is wrong or different?


You say that we cannot trust tinned/kibble foods because manufactures are not honest about what goes into them, but then go on to say that they list everything their food contains? So which one is it?  If a tinned/kibble food clearly lists every ingredient within the food (like you believe your raw mince manufacturer does with their food!) - then what is the problem?!

By additives/chemicals I am talking about BHT/BHA - known carcinogens - no taste, colour or odour. Artificial preservatives and flavourings, added salt or sugar, inorganic matter. Meats from diseased and medicated animals. Cuts of meat with no nutritional value.

Do I genuinely think that your raw mince contains any of these? No, I do not. Just in the same way I trust that *good* quality tinned/kibble diets do not either. But when using foodstuffs that are mass produced in factories - be it raw or tinned/kibble - you have to have some faith, do some research, and put your trust in others - and not believe that one commercial food is any better than another just because it has not been cooked.

A complete, balanced good quality tinned/kibble diet is MUCH better than an ill-thought out raw one.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Prowl said:


> I don't think when their is *so much cash to be made in commcercial food* we ever find out the truth.
> 
> This article I find interesting because all though its published by a newspaper famed for exadurating the truth the article is writtern by dog owners who have gone to the trouble of doing a lot of research so it really makes you think more when it comes to the age old debate of is raw or commercial foods better for your dog?


And increasingly in pre prepared raw; the market for "ready meal" forms of raw seems to be expanding at quite a rate of knots.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wow how can anyone be so naive? Unless you are rearing, slaughtering and butchering your own meat you have NO idea what you have or what's going in to it.

I mean how could anyone not have know they were eating horse meat instead of beef?


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Until you have a dog with severe adverse reactions to meat protein then you do not know what you are talking about, typical of someone fairly new to raw feeding you are gullible and believe all the cr** that your dogs breeders and/or friends tell you, and what you read on the internet.
I stopped feeding raw in 2007 for the simple reason if I had continued I would have lost a dog at the age of 3yrs instead of the 5 1/2 years I had with him. I wasnt new to raw feeding and had been raw feeding long before it became a fad, since the beginning of the 90s.
Commercial food isnt killing dogs early its faulty genes, along with decades of inbreeding and incests breeding.
I would rather my dogs eat commercial food and live a long happy healthy life than have a few years with a dog with a compromised immune system.


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## JessIncaFCR (Oct 1, 2012)

You cannot compare all commercial foods to KFC/McDonalds 

I cannot feed raw because I do not have the space. Does't make me a bad owner, and doesn't necessarily make my dogs less healthy. I feed them the best quality grain free food I can afford and I do not for a second believe that by doing so I am putting their health at risk. 

If you are going to judge others openly and try and brand all owners who feed commercial diets with the same stick...


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

One dog I had died at two he was fed raw, the other had a pancreatitis attack and nearly died whilst being fed raw, now my dogs are fed kibble and will remain so.

Just adding ..would she have had the pancreatitis attack if on kibble..who knows


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## toryb (Jul 11, 2011)

This thread has really tickled me :lol: why on earth are you so bothered what others feed their dogs? ??


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I feed raw most know that, i would never feed kibble knowingly as to ME it's just not good enough for my dogs.

Do i care if others highly favour kibble or their dogs do amazingly on it? nope i couldn't give a toss. I do whats best for my boys and that's it.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

JessIncaFCR said:


> You cannot compare all commercial foods to KFC/McDonalds
> 
> I cannot feed raw because I do not have the space. Does't make me a bad owner, and doesn't necessarily make my dogs less healthy. I feed them the best quality grain free food I can afford and I do not for a second believe that by doing so I am putting their health at risk.
> 
> If you are going to judge others openly and try and brand all owners who feed commercial diets with the same stick...


I havent compaired all just some :>
As I have often said since their are some good commercial brands out there all though not many.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Prowl said:


> Well actually you do because if it was in their its listed on the website or on the packet. They have to list their ingrediants just as commercial foods do.
> 
> Why on earth would they need to add salt anyway? What chemicals do you think goes into raw??
> 
> ...


Not necessarily true.



Prowl said:


> They would have to list them just as commercial foods do.
> 
> What kinds of chemicals are you talking about??
> 
> Surely thier is a notticable differnece if something is wrong or different?


Don't be so naive! Loads of commercial foods don't list the nasties in there and just see the covering of 'permitted EU antioxidants' or similar. Equally, some raw will have nasties in it, but the makers are hardly going to shout about it, are they? And shock, horror, there are some _excellent_ kibbles out there!

Way to put off people who already think raw feeders are idiots.


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

Goblin said:


> You miss the point.. It's not necessarily short term effects but those long term. Are you increasing the risk of cancer, diabetes and other illnesses? Is your dog going to age/die earlier? *I've seen only one statistical study* which indicates this is the case and heard of another but haven't found it in detail. On the flip side I have not seen anything which shows commercial foods are better for the long term health and extend lifespan in comparison. Only way to do this is to have long term huge scale studies. It will not happen.


Could you please let me know where to look up this study if possible? I'd be very interested in seeing some independent evidence on all this as there is very little around and I'm trying to broaden my understandings.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Prowl said:


> Forgive me for being ignorant but isn't that a bit like saying I have all ways fed my child a KFC his whole life now I have changed it to good fresh food he wont accept it?
> 
> I guess my arguement is that a lot of commcercial brands have things in them that make dogs hooked to them. Raw is something you have to give time imagine what its like for junkies to come clean and I think the switch to raw from commercial is very similar for dogs (not all though)
> 
> ...


I know the thread has gone on a lot since then but as you were replying to me I will reply.

First of all, do I remember rightly that you are young and only just learning about feeding dogs (I apologise if I have you muddled up). I think you are certainly going about it the right way to put everyone off raw feeding anyway.
My post was saying that if you change your dog's diet suddenly it is likely to get upset - therefore changing a raw feeder to commercial food and then blaming the food is as silly as doing it the other way round and blaming the raw food.

To say that dogs are hooked on commercial food and are like junkies is ridiculous beyond words.



SixStar said:


> A complete, balanced good quality tinned/kibble diet is MUCH better than an ill-thought out raw one.


How true is this  When I worked for a vet he used to shudder when someone came in and said they fed their dog on raw (or cooked) meat because he knew the dog was not receiving the nutrients it needed. The same with bones, he had opened up too many dogs to find a stomach full of undigested bones sitting there. It takes a lot of time and trouble and knowledge to feed a dog properly, so for the average dog owner it is far more sensible to buy a well balanced food and know your dog is receiving what it needs.

When tripe was readily available from the abbatoir I used to get one and cut it up in chunks and freeze it. I did not think 'oh I am wonderful, I am feeding raw', I simply had access to a cheap and tasty food and fed it to my dogs because I was poor and they liked it. It was not balanced but they looked good on it short term just as they looked good on the cheap dry food I fed them on the rest of the time. I would also boil a head from the abbatoir and get a huge amount of meat off it - again I did not consider I was feeding 'raw' (actually of course it was cooked) but a cheap and tasty food.
Sadly now with all the rules you cant get heads and tripes.

I do not even think feeding a dog raw is natural unless you throw them whole carcasses, guts and all. That is how dogs balanced their own diets, by eating herbivores and eating the whole carcass, vegetable matter and all. They did not have beef and lamb minced up and fed to them twice a day, they hunted and ate when they could.
We keep our dogs in a totally different way so we have to feed them differently in whatever way suits us.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

My parents fed our Collies on Winalot with a broth made from boiled lites all their lives - they were in the peak of condition and lived to a ripe old age.
So there :w00t::001_tongue:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

SusieRainbow said:


> My parents fed our Collies on Winalot with a broth made from boiled lites all their lives - they were in the peak of condition and lived to a ripe old age.
> So there :w00t::001_tongue:


Our family dogs were fed on pedigree chum and winalot with lights every so often. The smell of lights cooking still makes me heave!


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## Ponkies (Sep 25, 2013)

Just ordered some Ashenbank dry food for my dog but would like to add in some veg too and maybe some liver. Any particular veg for dogs? Anything to avoid? Thanks


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Our family dogs were fed on pedigree chum and winalot with lights every so often. The smell of lights cooking still makes me heave!


Oh, me too ! But I haven't actually smelt them since the dogs died, thank goodness. I tried Tango on dried tripe sticks, the smell was vile like sewage - yuk yuk ! Luckily she didn't care for them either so they went in the bin pronto.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

*Should* my dogs eat raw? Sure, probably. Do they? Not really.
Now as hunting season is in full swing they'll get several raw meals of venison and any other goodies my hunting friends share. They get turkey necks when they're on sale, and they get rabbit and field mouse when they catch one. But a good quality kibble is their staple.
Kibble is just too darned convenient, and with up to recently 4 large and XL dogs, I didn't have the freezer space or time to track down the deals on raw to keep it stocked. 

Basically, I do the best I feel I can, and I refuse to feel guilty for feeing a well-researched, good quality kibble. My dogs don't have allergies, they don't have any food intolerances, they're pretty much iron gut dogs. If they were not doing well on kibble that would be one thing, but that's not the case.

Not everyone *can* feed raw, not everyone *should* feed raw. I totally agree that a good quality commercial food trumps a badly planned out raw diet.

I do what I feel I can, and I'm not going to stress about it. My dogs sure don't seem to be stressed!


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Another here with an iron gut dog.


No I don't feed raw. I feed him a good kibble, not only nutritionally sound (the proof is in the pudding people) (made with free range animals, organic farming methods AND high welfare standards), scraps and whatever I deem else he can have.

I do not feel guilty about it- he's a dog. Should his needs change as he ages, I will adjust accordingly

Incidentally the meat I buy myself is of high welfare standards- if I had a freezer full of battery chickens for my dog, well I'd feel pretty sad about that.

Personal choices.

Frankly I don't really care what people feed their dogs as long as they're getting fed. With a history in rescue and having lived in some impoverished areas of Glasgow (and further afield) I have seen some amazing dogs fed on foods most of us on here would deem 'bad'.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Woman in front of me in Sainsburys bought 10 bags of VALUE complete dog food. My first thought was "she either has lots of dogs, or is buying for the local rescue". 

I did not automatically judge her to be a BAD dog owner. 

Some dogs will eat all sorts of crap when they are running loose - a GSD puppy this morning was eating stones whilst it's owner chatted 

Cheap dog food could be the least of their worries!


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

A good quality dry food can be very expensive and everyones idea of what good quality is, is different.

I have seen some kibbles go for £40 for a bag no thanks! 15kg for a brand like burns £49 for a 13 KG bag of Taste of The Wild and the one I would have liked to feed Yarrah which looks pretty good a whopping £46.90 for a 15 KG bag which is what I would have to get to feed my dog. 
The only kibble I would recomend to others is this one 
http://www.bowmeows.co.uk/index.asp?item=BSDSSAL-12.5MUL&animal=

I was for once plesently suprised to be able read the ingrediants and it listed the flavours on the packet first but just look at the price tag!

Wet tins are not too bad but the price daylight robbery!


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Way back in my grandparent's days (not that long ago really)- dogs were fed scraps and generally scavenged....

Bones were kept for making stock, the dogs got porridge and all kinds of other stuff.

Incidentally my dog gets veggies, fruit, fish, whatever scraps we have left- h e eats it all- as he is a scavenger.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

Julesky said:


> Way back in my grandparent's days (not that long ago really)- dogs were fed scraps and generally scavenged....
> 
> Bones were kept for making stock, the dogs got porridge and all kinds of other stuff.
> 
> Incidentally my dog gets veggies, fruit, fish, whatever scraps we have left- h e eats it all- as he is a scavenger.


This is how my grandparents fed their dog they lived in Anto and my grandfather would make a stew and keep it on boil and just chuck every left over they had. It would be spooned out into a bowl and thats what the dogs got. Their was no science to it they dogs got fed what they had and where never fat or had an health problems.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Prowl said:


> This is how my grandparents fed their dog they lived in Anto and my grandfather would make a stew and keep it on boil and just chuck every left over they had. It would be spooned out into a bowl and thats what the dogs got. Their was no science to it they dogs got fed what they had and _where never fat or had an health problems_.


I can pretty much guarantee my grandparents were never fat as they wandered where they wanted, were never wormed and probably had health problems but it was different times.

Dogs were loved pets, but not in the same way we pour our resources, time and finances into them-

There is no science to how the pet dogs of Ecuador are fed and believe me whilst they are not fat, they are not without their health problems.
Same with the dogs of India (can take a LOT of spice)
Or china.

The point I was trying to make is- raw is not the be all and end all. 
Food is.


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## wee man (Apr 8, 2012)

Oh dear ! Our family dogs are canine animals they have canine teeth for gnawing and tearing meat off a carcus, they also scavange and eat some of the most horendous s***t that you would ever want to imagine, they have evolved from the wolf.

Doga are opportunistic carnivores with omnivorous abilities, however, their entire anatomy and physiology has been designed for a meat eating diet !
The wolf's latin name; "Canis Lupus" 
Our domestic dogs latin name; "Canis Lupus Familiaris"

Unfortunately, dry "convenient" kibble foods are part of our modern day lifestyle and luckily for many, our dogs can "conveniently" live and survive on these products.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> A good quality dry food can be very expensive and everyones idea of what good quality is, is different.
> 
> I have seen some kibbles go for £40 for a bag no thanks! 15kg for a brand like burns £49 for a 13 KG bag of Taste of The Wild and the one I would have liked to feed Yarrah which looks pretty good a whopping £46.90 for a 15 KG bag which is what I would have to get to feed my dog.
> The only kibble I would recomend to others is this one
> ...


On this side of the pond I can do high quality kibble for less than what raw would cost me.
Mine eat a store brand that is equivalent to TOTW, grain free, good quality ingredients, and with coupons I rarely pay more than $30 for a 33 pound bag. 
From what I gather, it seems we have more good quality kibble options here in the US than in Europe.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

wee man said:


> Oh dear ! Our family dogs are canine animals they have canine teeth for gnawing and tearing meat off a carcus, they also scavange and eat some of the most horendous s***t that you would ever want to imagine, they have evolved from the wolf.
> 
> Doga are opportunistic carnivores with omnivorous abilities, however, their entire anatomy and physiology has been designed for a meat eating diet !
> The wolf's latin name; "Canis Lupus"
> ...


My understanding is that dogs and wolves evolved from a common ancestor, not that dogs evolved directly from wolves.
Kind of like how modern humans and the great apes share a common ancestor, not that modern humans evolved from the great apes.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> On this side of the pond I can do high quality kibble for less than what raw would cost me.
> Mine eat a store brand that is equivalent to TOTW, grain free, good quality ingredients, and with coupons I rarely pay more than $30 for a 33 pound bag.
> *From what I gather, it seems we have more good quality kibble options here in the US than in Europe*.


You could be right but I think there is a huge selection of kibble in this country, just that there are a few people on here that find something wrong with most of it. Oddly though most dogs are in good condition whatever they are fed on.


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## wee man (Apr 8, 2012)

Another reason "Why your dog should eat raw"

In order to understand what foods a dog is designed to digest we need to take a look at the dogs most common wild ancestor; "The Wolf" (Canis Lupus) 
I will repeat again, that our dogs (Canis Lupus Familiaris) have "*evolved*" from the wolf "Canis Lupus". Our dogs (Canis Lupus Familiaris) like wolves share the same internal anatomy and physiology, they have short digestive tracts, made especially for processing raw meat.
If you want to provide your dog optimum nutrition then you need to think "Wolf".

Our dogs are scavangers, they can and do survive on some awfull diets, there is nothing natural in dry "convenient" grain based kibbles.
No wild dog af any kind has a grain based diet 52 weeks of the year, luckily our dogs manage, and do very well.
As a child growing up I remember my mother boiling up a big pan of horse meat once a week and she used a terrier mixer biscuit and household scraps.
Ok cooked horse meat and mixer biscuit are again not a natural food, but the dogs never suffered any of the allergies that so many of our dogs do of today.

The family dogs biscuit.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

wee man said:


> In order to understand what foods a dog is designed to digest we need to take a look at the dogs most common wild ancestor; "The Wolf" (Canis Lupus)
> I will repeat again, that our dogs (Canis Lupus Familiaris) have "*evolved*" from the wolf "Canis Lupus" and our dogs (Canis Lupus Familiaris) like wolves have short digestive tracts, made especially for processing raw meat.
> If you want to provide your dog optimum nutrition then you need to think *"Wolf"[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

wee man said:


> I will repeat again, that our dogs (Canis Lupus Familiaris) have "*evolved*" from the wolf "Canis Lupus" and our dogs (Canis Lupus Familiaris) like wolves have short digestive tracts, made especially for processing raw meat.
> If you want to provide your dog optimum nutrition then you need to think "Wolf"


The key work here (which you have put in bold) is *evolved* i.e. to develop a characteristic by evolutionary process. Therefore we should not treat domestic dogs as wolves as they have evolved and adapted to live with humans. Several people on here (quite rightly) make the very strong point that you cannot compare wolf behaviour with that of domestic dogs so why is it so hard to believe that _just maybe_ domestic dogs have also adapted their digestive systems.

Sweeping statements that dogs need the same nutrition as wolves, and the inplication that those people who, for whatever reason do not feed raw, are ridiculous, and it is no surprise that so many people are put off feeding raw by the attitude of SOME raw feeders.

There are many anecdotes to back up raw feeding being better for dogs, but just as many to support kibble (in fact, I can even think of dogs I know who have been fed the dreaded Bakers all their lives and lived to a ripe old age with no health issues), but there is very little actual evidence that one way of feeding is better than the other.

Many people don't feed raw, for a variety of reason, but that doesn't mean we aren't doing the best for our dogs. All dogs are different and if a dog is fit, healthy and happy on a commercial dog food then why should the owner be made to feel that they are doing something wrong?


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

wee man said:


> In order to understand what foods a dog is designed to digest we need to take a look at the dogs most common wild ancestor; "The Wolf" (Canis Lupus)
> I will repeat again, that our dogs (Canis Lupus Familiaris) have "*evolved*" from the wolf "Canis Lupus" and our dogs (Canis Lupus Familiaris) like wolves have short digestive tracts, made especially for processing raw meat.
> If you want to provide your dog optimum nutrition then you need to think "Wolf"


And I will repeat again, dogs and wolves share a common ancestor, but dogs are not a descendant of wolves any more than humans are a descendant of gorillas. Check the more recent DNA research 

I'm not disputing for a minute that a raw diet is good for dogs. Nor am I disputing that dogs have the anatomy of a carnivore, from their dentition, to the length of their digestive tract.

However, just as in the training methods conversations, there is no "best", there is no "optimum". There is what is most effective for that particular dog/owner combination in their unique situation.

Not everyone needs (or wants) to feed raw. Not every dog needs to be on raw. Some dogs have special needs that can't be met with raw, or maybe they just don't like it. As long as the dog's needs are being met, what business is it of anyone's what someone else feeds their dog?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

wee man said:


> Another reason "Why your dog should eat raw"
> .


This attitude is the one that gets my back up, and this is why this thread gets my back up.. Who are you or OP to tell people they "should" feed raw? Really? You might say "why you might consider" "does this make you consider" but to say people SHOULD feed raw is arrogant.

I also find that people who have only just started feeding raw are the ones who are the worst for this ( ie a few years), those who have fed it for years and years over generations of dogs just get on with it, and give advise to those who want to feed raw, not shake their head and tut at those that don't acting all high and mighty.

If your dog is fit and healthy raw, and everyone else's dog is fit and healthy fed on kibble then so be it, who is anyone to say who should feed what?

Can I ask have either the OP or wee man any experience in nutrition? I mean a proper degree in Canine Nutrition? Not a college course that might have a module in nutrition? If not how can you tell people what their dogs "should" be eating? I mean we can all read labels and see what's in food that's not very scientific is it


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I guess I must aggree to disagree in this case but I can't help compairing the two.
> 
> Incase your wondering I certainly don't think people who choose to feed commercial are bad owners anymore then I think parents who feed their kids on Mcdonalds, KFC and TV dinners are bad.
> 
> All circomstances are different but I can still disagree with it.


Wow, talk about judgemental. You absolutely cannot compare someone who feeds a high quality commercial dog food to a parent feeding their child nothing but Mcdonalds, KFC and tv dinners. Get your head out of your arse and stop spouting utter rubbish.

For the record I feed raw but it is not for everyone nor for every dog.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

This thread is cracking me up...

I'm a vegetarian, eschew processed food, eat local, organic as much as possible, fair trade, etc. This is something that for ME is very important. Yet I can't in a million years imagine telling anyone else how they should eat or what they should feed their kids. If someone asks about our food lifestyle, I'll share our reasons and the information that led us to make changes. 

I'm a clicker trainer, I love clicker training, I find it hugely effective and the dogs love it. Again, if folks ask, I share. But it's not my place to tell others how they should train their dogs. 

Basically, I've arrived at the choices I make for myself and mine based on research and examining the information available to me. I may change those choices based on new information. 
In no way do I think I am the only one capable of making intelligent, well thought-out choices. And in no way do I think that just because someone arrived at a different decision than me, that theirs is "wrong". It's just different, and I respect the thought that went in to their choice. 

And that my friends, is what's missing from this type of conversation when we get all judge-y and ego trip-y. Respect for the intelligent choices of others, even when they differ from the choice we ourselves make.

"Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too." ~Voltaire


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I don't like raw, my dogs don't like raw, and they do very well on dried food with a topper. I believe some poor foods are poisoning dogs, but certainly not the better end ones.

Raw doesn't suit all dogs or owners. I'm very happy feeding dry and my dogs are in great condition. Obviously not poisoning them


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I haven't read the whole thread - but I agree with Ouesi that no-one should be bullied into feeding their dog anything. 

Ok if someone posts that they are feeding Bakers dry mixed with Breederpack wet food I might say something. 

But raw most certainly isn't for everyone or every dog. Whisper is on commercial food - currently Eden kibble mixed with Butchers wet food. I tried her on raw and she wouldn't eat it. 

She now eats some raw because since Teddy started on it she discovered that she likes it. But she only likes the shop-bought stuff that I buy fresh and portion up for Teddy. She won't touch raw minces (DAF, Prize Choice, Natural Instinct - tried them all!) and I can't afford to feed her raw in the same way I feed Teddy. So she gets a bit of raw as a treat but is on commercial food as her primary food. Decent quality commercial food but commercial food.

Teddy is on raw but for a while I didn't think he was going to take to it either - he doesn't like the minces at all. Luckily given his small size I can afford to feed raw by buying whole foods and chopping them up which he loves. Otherwise I couldn't do it. 

Whisper goes on the same walks Teddy goes on, her coat is shiny and glossy, she is playful and bright-eyed just as Teddy is. So I'm happy. 

Why can't we operate on the principle that we're all here to do the best by our pets under our own set of very personal circumstances and support one another in that vein??


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Julesky said:


> wee man said:
> 
> 
> > In order to understand what foods a dog is designed to digest we need to take a look at the dogs most common wild ancestor; "The Wolf" (Canis Lupus)
> ...


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

At the end of the day whatever suits us and our dogs does not escape the fact a dogs teeth and jaws are made for bones and meat. 

Kibble does not clean a dogs teeth it is not designed to in any way. 
Kibble is sprayed with animal fats to make it more appetising so just as likely to pass salmonella which has been found all ready in some batches of Eukanuba big recall earlier this year you may remember. 

Dogs are not designed to eat wet food its still processed with in an inch of its existence so even dogs do well on it does it make right??

Meat and bones is what mother nature intended for dogs and thats what I choose to feed my dogs. If mankind was made a processed food would you eat it as well?

Currently studying a Canine Nutrion course out of interest and try and learn a little more about a natural and comercial feeding.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Actually it was very common for dogs to be given a day of fasting.


Still is in many circles. Yet another thing that doesn't work for every dog.

Breez (great dane) will retch bile if she goes too long between meals and her stomach is empty too long. 
Once she gets to this point, she will quickly progress to feeling bad enough that she looses interest in food and it snowballs from there. She is one who does NOT do well on a super-empty stomach.

Another example of different dogs, different needs.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> At the end of the day whatever suits us and our dogs does not escape the fact a dogs teeth and jaws are made for bones and meat.
> 
> Kibble does not clean a dogs teeth it is not designed to in any way.
> Kibble is sprayed with animal fats to make it more appetising so just as likely to pass salmonella which has been found all ready in some batches of Eukanuba big recall earlier this year you may remember.
> ...


Dogs are not designed to walk on a lead, dogs are not designed to have their bits chopped off or removed, dogs are not designed to lie on sofa's dogs are not designed to sleep indoors, dogs are not designed to need I go on?

So again what qualifications do you have to tell people what their dogs should be eating.

Can you also point me to long term scientific research carried out by qualified independent researchers that shows which is bad and which is good, not just raw feeders/suppliers saying raw is the best for dogs and kibble feeder/suppliers saying kibble is the best?


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

Prowl said:


> At the end of the day whatever suits us and our dogs does not escape the fact a dogs teeth and jaws are made for bones and meat.
> 
> Kibble does not clean a dogs teeth it is not designed to in any way.
> Kibble is sprayed with animal fats to make it more appetising so just as likely to pass salmonella which has been found all ready in some batches of Eukanuba big recall earlier this year you may remember.
> ...


Not all kibble is sprayed with animal fat.

Salmonella is not an issue for healthy dogs. Mine eat rotting dead deer guts they find in the woods without issue (other than a beyond grossed-out owner), and I've fed them "off" meat on purpose plenty of times. They're fine.

Humans aren't designed to eat super-processed foods either, but we do.
Mankind HAS been made many a processed food and eats it. What do you think bread, and cereal is?!


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Still is in many circles. Yet another thing that doesn't work for every dog.
> 
> Breez (great dane) will retch bile if she goes too long between meals and her stomach is empty too long.
> Once she gets to this point, she will quickly progress to feeling bad enough that she looses interest in food and it snowballs from there. She is one who does NOT do well on a super-empty stomach.
> ...


Fasting has no provern health benefits what so ever. I can understand if the dogs are feeling unwell and have something giving them jip they need to get rid of. I will fast myself when I feel ill.

I would never purposely fast my dog I don't see the need to unless it was for a medical reason.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Prowl said:


> At the end of the day whatever suits us and our dogs does not escape the fact a dogs teeth and jaws are made for bones and meat.
> 
> *Kibble does not clean a dogs teeth it is not designed to in any way.*
> Kibble is sprayed with animal fats to make it more appetising so just as likely to pass salmonella which has been found all ready in some batches of Eukanuba big recall earlier this year you may remember.
> ...


My dog got gum disease after putting them on raw, his teeth were spotless on kibble.

Why do you feed your dog minces? Why do you not purely feed chunks and bones?


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Prowl said:


> At the end of the day whatever suits us and our dogs does not escape the fact a dogs teeth and jaws are made for bones and meat.


Ah - but you could argue that at the end of the day Cocker Spaniels should be working, all Border Collies should be herding sheep, all Labradors should be retrieving game....... that is, at the end of the day, what they were designed for is it not?! 

But we manipulate these breeds to fit into a pet home environment. Why?

_Because it suits us_

Do those dogs suffer for this? Should these owners be bullied into working their dogs?

Why do some people choose to feed commercial?

_Because it suits them_

That's life. I don't understand the big fuss - and I can promise you this - you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Not everyone has space for a freezer, not every dog likes raw (as explained) and so on and so on.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

My goldfish eats fish flakes :yikes: :yikes:


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> My goldfish eats fish flakes :yikes: :yikes:


You heathen!


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Prowl said:


> At the end of the day whatever suits us and our dogs does not escape the fact a dogs teeth and jaws are made for bones and meat.
> 
> Kibble does not clean a dogs teeth it is not designed to in any way.
> Kibble is sprayed with animal fats to make it more appetising so just as likely to pass salmonella which has been found all ready in some batches of Eukanuba big recall earlier this year you may remember.
> ...


When you have finally finished your course maybe you will know a little about the various protozoa, parasites, bacteria, toxins etc that can affect the health of your dogs from raw meat such as Crytosporidia, Trichinella (T. nativa in particular can survive sub arctic temperatures), Toxoplasma gondii etc I had a neighbour who fed raw, he never wormed his dog for basic parasites and was supprised when he viewed the faeces under a microscope!

Remember what ever way people wish to feed it is up to them not you, also bear in mind you should NEVER FEED RAW TO AN IMMUNE COMPROMISED DOG.

Come back in another 10 year when you have gained knowledge in the subject area you are trying to enforce on other people.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Wildmoor said:


> When you have finally finished your course maybe you will know a little about the various protozoa, parasites, bacteria, toxins etc that can affect the health of your dogs from raw meat such as Crytosporidia, Trichinella (T. nativa in particular can survive sub arctic temperatures), Toxoplasma gondii etc I had a neighbour who fed raw, he never wormed his dog for basic parasites and was supprised when he viewed the faeces under a microscope!
> 
> Remember what ever way people wish to feed it is up to them not you, *also bear in mind you should NEVER FEED RAW TO AN IMMUNE COMPROMISED DOG.*
> 
> Come back in another 10 year when you have gained knowledge in the subject area you are trying to enforce on other people.


Actually alot of people feed raw to immune compromised dogs and found it helps them a hell of a lot!


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

I dont see how its like feeding raw meat to someone with HIV they would be susceptible to all the bacteria, protozoa and parasites
in what way have these dogs got a compromised immune system?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Someone call the authorities, I gave Spencer a couple of prawn crackers and some toast crust earlier 

Honest to god, why do people get so fanatical about what others feed? It's none of my business whether someone feeds their dog fillet steak every meal or Bakers. What is my business is what I choose to feed my dog.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I'd don't like KFC and I don't have kids BUT sometimes when I'm feeling a bit ill I have a Chicken Pot Noodle  and and and don't tell anyone one, but one out of my 4 cats still eats kibble, and and when OH and I have Ice cream we let Cian lick the tub clean, and phew wow I'm really not sure if I should admit this :blush:

I LOVE TWIGLETS AND MARMITE and so does Cian.......... The Meezers and my OH don't


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I'd don't like KFC and I don't have kids BUT sometimes when I'm feeling a bit ill I have a Chicken Pot Noodle  and and and don't tell anyone one, but one out of my 4 cats still eats kibble, and and when OH and I have Ice cream we let Cian lick the tub clean, and phew wow I'm really not sure if I should admit this :blush:
> 
> I LOVE TWIGLETS AND MARMITE and so does Cian.......... The Meezers and my OH don't


Clearly you should not own animals :nonod: Or be responsible for feeding yourself.

Rupert used to love a tub of vanilla ice cream from the ice cream van occasionally  For all he was funny about eating he never turned down an ice cream!


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Wildmoor said:


> I dont see how its like feeding raw meat to someone with HIV they would be susceptible to all the bacteria, protozoa and parasites
> in what way have these dogs got a compromised immune system?


Dogs can get auto immune diseases so giving them a compromised immune system.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

your answer does not make sense - it is obvious that a dog with an autoimmune condition as a compromised immune system :huh:

I asked in what way the particular dogs you are referring to have a compromised immune system 
Ask any vet who Raw feeds and they will tell you Not To Raw Feed a Dog with a Compromised Immune System it can be life threatening - you wont support the immune system by raw feeding an ill dog you will destroy it more particular if the dog as an over active or reactive autoimmune condition


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Wildmoor said:


> When you have finally finished your course maybe you will know a little about the various protozoa, parasites, bacteria, toxins etc that can affect the health of your dogs from raw meat such as Crytosporidia, Trichinella (T. nativa in particular can survive sub arctic temperatures), Toxoplasma gondii etc I had a neighbour who fed raw, he never wormed his dog for basic parasites and was supprised when he viewed the faeces under a microscope!
> 
> Remember what ever way people wish to feed it is up to them not you, also bear in mind you should NEVER FEED RAW TO AN IMMUNE COMPROMISED DOG.
> 
> Come back in another 10 year when you have gained knowledge in the subject area you are trying to enforce on other people.


That's why we freeze our meats prior to feeding. If you're referring to Trichinosis, we don't have that in the UK pig farms and even if it can survive sub zero temperatures it can't survive freezing for 48 hours. You don't mention Neospora Caninum which CAN be present in the muscle of UK cattle, now that IS a risk and one dog (a Boxer) is known to have died from it, just one. BUT like ALL of the diseases you mention it too is killed by freezing for 24 hours prior to feeding. There isn't any bacterium that can survive deep freezing. Parvovirus for instance can withstand extreme temperatures but it can't withstand being frozen solid in a freezer. And for the record you can and should feed IMMUNE COMPROMISED dogs a raw diet because it aids their immune system and helps build immunity. Dogs with Cushings disease benefit from a raw diet due to having no hidden additives that 'spike' their condition, any Cushings site tells you raw is the best food for a compromised dog. 
Raw feeding is not new you know, my mum was feeding it back in the 60's, and many before then until tinned crap flooded the market and dogs started to get fat, become diabetic and get diseases not known before. If your mate fed raw and his dog got worms (supposedly from the raw, dicey info there) then he knew nothing about freezing certain meats and had himself to blame. 
In order to feed raw PROPERLY you have to research it and educate yourself on how to feed safely. You don't just chuck any old chunk of meat at the dog and take pot luck.

Come back in ten years time when its proven that commercial fed, especially kibble fed dogs have higher rates of kidney disease, skin problem, decayed teeth and hyperactivity than raw fed. In fact you don't need to wait ten years because its happening right now!

ETA - Don't ask just any vet about immune compromised feeding and raw, look at world renowned vets Billinghurst and Lonsdale who DO advise it. Most primary care vets know jack s*ih about nutrition, let alone raw feeding. Take two vets who ARE nutritionists and who HAVE spent a lifetime researching raw feeding. Let primary care vets do what they trained to do - treat sick animals and not lecture on something that isn't a part of their training at all. 
An anti raw vet once told me 'Even when I worked in a wolf sanctuary they fed them kibble' yeah cos that's the right way to feed a wolf init?


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

The vet I am referring to is an avid Raw Feeder but even she wont, likewise a dog with liver disease which requires low protein or a dog with epilepsy

There are some zoonosis and parasites that do survive freezing temps for several months in the UK a domestic freezer is not cold enough, hence why when I raw fed I had a commercial freezer.
I am aware that I did not mention all protozoa, parasites, bacterium hence the etc.
Raw Meat and Bone Diets for Dogs: It

Cautions on Raw Foods (Raw Meat) and Epileptic Dogs

and regardless of what you state no you shouldnt feed them raw it doesnt strengthen an immune system that is already compromised


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Malmum said:


> That's why we freeze our meats prior to feeding. If you're referring to Trichinosis, we don't have that in the UK pig farms and even if it can survive sub zero temperatures it can't survive freezing for 48 hours. You don't mention Neospora Caninum which CAN be present in the muscle of UK cattle, now that IS a risk and one dog (a Boxer) is known to have died from it, just one. BUT like ALL of the diseases you mention it too is killed by freezing for 24 hours prior to feeding. There isn't any bacterium that can survive deep freezing. Parvovirus for instance can withstand extreme temperatures but it can't withstand being frozen solid in a freezer. And for the record you can and should feed IMMUNE COMPROMISED dogs a raw diet because it aids their immune system and helps build immunity. Dogs with Cushings disease benefit from a raw diet due to having no hidden additives that 'spike' their condition, any Cushings site tells you raw is the best food for a compromised dog.
> Raw feeding is not new you know, my mum was feeding it back in the 60's, and many before then *until tinned crap flooded the market and dogs started to get fat, become diabetic and get diseases not known before.* If your mate fed raw and his dog got worms (supposedly from the raw, dicey info there) then he knew nothing about freezing certain meats and had himself to blame.
> In order to feed raw PROPERLY you have to research it and educate yourself on how to feed safely. You don't just chuck any old chunk of meat at the dog and take pot luck.
> 
> ...


Ahh, so is "getting fat" is directly linked to feeding commercial food? out of curiosity, would you say your own raw fed dogs are in a peak physical condition weight wise?


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Wildmoor said:


> your answer does not make sense - it is obvious that a dog with an autoimmune condition as a compromised immune system :huh:
> 
> I asked in what way the particular dogs you are referring to have a compromised immune system
> Ask any vet who Raw feeds and they will tell you Not To Raw Feed a Dog with a Compromised Immune System it can be life threatening - you wont support the immune system by raw feeding an ill dog you will destroy it more particular if the dog as an over active or reactive autoimmune condition


I don't no the ins and outs of what the dogs in question have, neither of my boys have immune problems, all I know is what numerous other people have told me.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

pogo said:


> I don't no the ins and outs of what the dogs in question have, neither of my boys have immune problems, all I know is what numerous other people have told me.


Autoimmune conditions have a genetic basis, it is where the body does not recognises its own proteins and then goes on to destroy them such as the proteins in red blood cells are destroyed in autoimmune haemolytic anaemia, that is why a dog becomes allergic to certain food but it is the protein in the meat, grain etc not the meat or grain itself. This is due to the intensive line breeding in Europe and UK in the 70s onwards is to blame not the food.

I have lived with a dog that had one immune mediated condition that was life threatening that on to develop another life threatening condition again immune mediated the dogs own anti bodies go into what I term 'overdrive' and attacks the dogs own body, believe me it isnt something you want to have to witness and this was a raw raised and fed dog, I wasnt a novice to raw feeding I had fed that way for over 15 years, but like I will state again do not advise anyone to raw feed a dog with an autoimmune condition, they need a commercial food or home cooked diet where the proteins are partially broken down and any bacterium etc are destroyed.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I know what auto immune diseases are and what they do.

All I'm saying is there are a lot of people who DO feed raw to dogs with compromised immune systems and rave about it.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Wildmoor said:


> your answer does not make sense - it is obvious that a dog with an autoimmune condition as a compromised immune system :huh:
> 
> I asked in what way the particular dogs you are referring to have a compromised immune system
> Ask any vet who Raw feeds and they will tell you Not To Raw Feed a Dog with a Compromised Immune System it can be life threatening - you wont support the immune system by raw feeding an ill dog you will destroy it more particular if the dog as an over active or reactive autoimmune condition


I continued to feed raw to Kilo throughout his SRMA with my vet's support. He does not feed raw himself or usually advocate raw diets (from a human safety concern POV and from a concern that people will not do the necessary amount of research) but has talked to me about the way I choose to feed and is supportive.

I do not know whether it helped, hindered, or was neutral in his recovery speed but he bounced back very quickly indeed.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I feed mainly raw to Bess after finding she refused to eat any kind of quality kibble or other wet commercial food. (I've a sneaking suspicion she'd eat Bakers, but I'm NOT going there!)

Bess isn't a good eater on raw - she'll eat certain things, but not a wide variety. 

I've taken to leaving a bowl of Purizon out at all times. Once every four to five days she'll have a few mouthfuls. 

Having a skinny, hard to feed dog I just needed to get food into her. Whilst I like the idea of a raw diet, if I found she'd eat a commercial food better I'd change to that. 

Bess is now up to weight - and I think its because I've stopped stressing about her food. Her diet is:

Mainly raw - beef, rabbit and hare with chicken mince when she'll deign to eat it. (She's not keen on chicken at all, and refuses out meat). She also has heart. 

Cooked liver and kidney. 

Purizon when she fancies it AND - every table scrap that she can have. 

She's in great condition! 

The thing is, I don't obsess about what I eat - and didn't when my son was a baby. He used to live on the baby powdered cauliflower cheese mix that you just add water too. And sausages! I never researched what he should eat. 

So I'm not going to worry myself into an early grave about what Bess eats. As long as she's eating!!


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I got to page 8 then got bored. 

Prowl - up until recently, you fed Prized Choice - which is basically just mushed up meat and water. 
You then swapped to Basil's, then to MVM. 

Now whilst I know Basil's is a family owned butchers that makes quality food - you have nothing but their word about what is put in. Yes it looks good on the outside - but then so does the Burger that I have at the Gormet Burger Kitchen.. 

MVM are the same. However I have a friend that works there so I know that they are 100% what they say they are. 

I've recently started using the Natural Pet Pantry, I've only had one order but everything looks and smells how it should - but then I don't know if there isn't something else in there. However saying that, the owner is a qualified canine nutritionist. 

As it is, I rarely use Minces, I prefer whole foods.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Julesky said:
> 
> 
> > Actually it was very common for dogs to be given a day of fasting.
> ...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Makes me wonder though if today people would be appalled at the idea of not feeding their dog everyday.


I wouldn't be appalled at it. Spencer on the other hand...:lol:


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> I wouldn't be appalled at it. Spencer on the other hand...:lol:


hahahahahahah !


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2013)

Wildmoor said:


> I dont see how its like feeding raw meat to someone with HIV they would be susceptible to all the bacteria, protozoa and parasites
> in what way have these dogs got a compromised immune system?


Because a dog is designed to eat meat raw and a human is not.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Because a dog is designed to eat meat raw and a human is not.


So humans have always cooked meat hmmm blue steaks, steak tartare.

We have canines too.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Because a dog is designed to eat meat raw and a human is not.


You are not going to let this die are you? if what have others have said is true, you are feeding prepackaged raw? aka the cheats way of feeding raw because it's all done for you and all you have to do is put it in the bowl. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it is high quality stuff and if you can afford to feed it then good for you. But I don't think opening a packet of raw mince that has already been prepared for you allows you to preach to others about the merits of raw over commercial food.


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Because a dog is designed to eat meat raw and a human is not.


Er. Not we're not. We have however evolved to eat cooked food and in today's clinical society have lost a lot of our natural immunities.

How long did this take? How long will it take our dogs to do the same?

No-one knows.

I think a little knowledge is a VERY dangerous thing.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Prowl said:


> Because a dog is designed to eat meat raw and a human is not.


And yet the dog was domesticated to eat scraps from a human diet..... we started cooking our food. Those early dogs may have had all kinds of cooked scraps

Also meat was and still is highly prized commodity on the diet sheets of half the world- think they're going to share it with a dog, think again


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

I've been lurking on critical debates between raw feeding and non-raw feeding vets. The biggest problem the raw feeding vets have is that they are so evangelical in their approach and I feel it is the same with some raw feeders (but definitely not all). And despite the fact majority of non-raw feeding vets admit that the diet can be beneficial to some dogs so long as it's fed properly (that's another big contention, they see raw fed dogs with deficiencies especially in calcium or issues like gastrointestinal perforation from incorrect feeding) the raw feeding vets do not accept this as "enough" and insist it is universally beneficial and honestly they make some bizarre unfounded claims at times.

I agree with the majority of vets that I've seen talk about it and even spoken to myself, raw feeding will benefit some dogs when done correctly. But on the raw feeding side the majority of the evidence is anecdotal. In fact I have only seen one survey on the positives of raw feeding, although one percentage was negatively higher than what I assume it would be for kibble fed dogs, but there was no basis for comparison to kibble fed dogs so how are we to know? It's excellent that we see the incidences of raw feeding problems but it's a mute point if there is no similar survey on kibble fed dogs for comparison, for all I know the kibble fed could be lower (better off) or higher (worse off). 

Anecdotal evidence in my opinion is a very weak basis of evidence. The claims of better dental hygiene, faeces consistency, better breath that come from raw food vets and some raw feeders are disreputed by those who have the same anecdotal evidence for their dogs on kibble. I would take neither for fact. Although growing, the amount of dogs on kibble food is much higher than dogs on a raw food diet so of course those on kibble will have higher incidence of disease across the board because there's a greater chance in a greater number in environments that could easily be unfavourable, it again has no basis IMO. Unless two equal populations are compared then again I don't find this to be particularly fair evidence.

This isn't me saying that the lack of true evidence means raw feeding must be bad. In fact it's quite the opposite, the lack of evidence means there is no right or wrong answer at the moment and it all comes down to the owner and the dog. If the risks are known to the owner and the dog does well on raw food then I see no reason for it to be changed. And again if the risks of kibble are known to the owner and the dog does well on it I see no reason for it to be changed.

What I dislike are the grandiose claims made by some raw feeders that raw food is the complete cure, for example that it repels parasites. I have seen no evidence of this whatsoever so far apart from anecdotes. And I've seen anecdotes in the contrary of dogs raw fed and all of a sudden their bottoms are scooting across the floor. If there is any evidence I've missed please let me know like I said before I am trying to broaden my awareness, preferably with no bias on either side of the "argument" as I find that to be also very misleading.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2013)

Meezey said:


> So humans have always cooked meat hmmm blue steaks, steak tartare.
> 
> We have canines too.


We are omnivores we can vary our diet dogs are carnivores meat makes up the ulk of their diet.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> We are omnivores we can vary our diet dogs are carnivores meat makes up the ulk of their diet.


Prowl don't be so patronising think we all did biology 101.

I feed raw and have done for many a years I just wouldn't be so condescending to tell people what they should be feeding raw so I'll ask you again are you qualified to do this and can you show me the independent scientific research to show me the papers where it says as a result of extensive research feeding raw is better than kibble over the life time of a dog?


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## Tarnus (Apr 5, 2011)

I feed my dog raw because she is descended from wolves and wolves eat raw meat! Makes sense to me.

That's also why I also fully embrace training methods based on hierarchy and pack mentality. I eat before her, sometimes I kick her out of her bed and get in it myself, when she does something wrong I get the rolled up newspaper out and smack her on the head and when she refuses to do something I'll alpha roll her, pin her to the ground and make sure she recognises that I am the pack leader and she has to respect me. You know, because that's how wild wolves live and I that is the best way to train my wolf-descended dog. _Clicker training? Positive reinforcement?_ Haha, don't make laugh. What sort of nonsense is that? There's only one way to train a dog and that is this way. If you know a dog that is obedient and happy then that person must've gotten lucky, because I know lots of people who try to train like that and their dog's wont do a thing they ask, whereas everyone who uses my method has lovely obedient dogs.


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## Mumtomaddog (Sep 17, 2013)

Tarnus said:


> I feed my dog raw because she is descended from wolves and wolves eat raw meat! Makes sense to me.
> 
> That's also why I also fully embrace training methods based on hierarchy and pack mentality. I eat before her, sometimes I kick her out of her bed and get in it myself, when she does something wrong I get the rolled up newspaper out and smack her on the head and when she refuses to do something I'll alpha roll her, pin her to the ground and make sure she recognises that I am the pack leader and she has to respect me. You know, because that's how wild wolves live and I that is the best way to train my wolf-descended dog. _Clicker training? Positive reinforcement?_ Haha, don't make laugh. What sort of nonsense is that? There's only one way to train a dog and that is this way. If you know a dog that is obedient and happy then that person must've gotten lucky, because I know lots of people who try to train like that and their dog's wont do a thing they ask, whereas everyone who uses my method has lovely obedient dogs.


LOL is that a wind up??....:laugh:


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Julesky said:


> And yet the dog was domesticated to eat scraps from a human diet..... we started cooking our food. Those early dogs may have had all kinds of cooked scraps
> 
> Also meat was and still is highly prized commodity on the diet sheets of half the world- think they're going to share it with a dog, think again


Exactly. Do people really think that before the advent of commercial pet food dogs were fed similarly to today's raw diets?

We're very lucky in this part of the world to be so overfed we can be picky about what our pets eat.

As for commercially fed dogs being fat, most of the dogs on PF tell a different story, mine included. Having spent a fair bit of time on various dog forums I have seen my fair share of overweight raw fed dogs (and you do tend to know the raw fed ones because their owners so often mention it).
Doesn't make much difference if you feed prey model raw or the cheapest of kibbles, too much of it is going to make your dog fat, and fat dogs are not healthy.


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## Tarnus (Apr 5, 2011)

Mumtomaddog said:


> LOL is that a wind up??....:laugh:




Of course, but just making a point (in my own special way) that the "descended from wolves" argument is often wheeled out in support of one thing, but then if someone uses it to support something else then it gets shot down.

Personally, I feed raw because it seems to suit Izzy, and she enjoys eating it. If someone asks what we feed (which is often, as her coat is so shiny) I tell them, and if they ask I'll tell them more about it, but I wont give them the third degree about what they feed and shove raw feeding down their throats, or tell them not to feed commercial. I never even say "it's better than commercial" because such a sweeping statement isn't true, but I do explain how Izzy is doing better on it than she seemed to be on kibble.


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## Mumtomaddog (Sep 17, 2013)

Tarnus said:


> Of course, but just making a point (in my own special way) that the "descended from wolves" argument is often wheeled out in support of one thing, but then if someone uses it to support something else then it gets shot down.
> 
> Personally, I feed raw because it seems to suit Izzy, and she enjoys eating it. If someone asks what we feed (which is often, as her coat is so shiny) I tell them, and if they ask I'll tell them more about it, but I wont give them the third degree about what they feed and shove raw feeding down their throats, or tell them not to feed commercial. I never even say "it's better than commercial" because such a sweeping statement isn't true, but I do explain how Izzy is doing better on it than she seemed to be on kibble.


LOL thought it must have been.

I am leaning towards raw myself but still in research stages as want to get it right and plus it seems really hard to find the stuff here or maybe i'm just not looking in right places and havent done enough research yet 

I personally believe what suits one dog will not necessarily suit another, its about finding what does suit your dog and what they actually enjoy eating. I'm the same in reality, it really isnt much fun knowing youve cooked/prepared a meal to have someone just push it around their plate... a good healthy appetite cheers me up no end.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mumtomaddog said:


> LOL thought it must have been.
> 
> I am leaning towards raw myself but still in research stages as want to get it right and plus it seems really hard to find the stuff here or maybe i'm just not looking in right places and havent done enough research yet
> 
> I personally believe what suits one dog will not necessarily suit another, its about finding what does suit your dog and what they actually enjoy eating. I'm the same in reality, it really isnt much fun knowing youve cooked/prepared a meal to have someone just push it around their plate... a good healthy appetite cheers me up no end.


If you do lean towards doing it let me know I'm in Belfast and have a few places I get stuff from so might be able to help you out.

I'm in the process of tracking a man down who does raw for Grey Hounds and arrives at parks in a huge refrigerated van and sells from there 

But I have someone who stock spines, backs, carcasses, ribs,hearts, livers and if you chose to go the complete raw route just found a awesome supplier for that  I don't use minces that much but still good to have :0 Also a Butcher in Carrick, that would depend on here you are of course.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't like commercial food, and I will not feed it on a daily basis. But, to be honest, I couldn't give a stuff what others feed. As long as people don't tell me I am wrong for feeding raw, then I won't do the same to them 

As for the wolves debate, it is a known fact that dogs have evolved to work with people... therefore the way they communicate with us etc differs to how they communicate with each other etc. However, their digestive systems has not changed. It is the same as a wolves. Therefore, I don't think people can be criticised for using that argument, but at the same time not alpha rolling them - which I don't believe they do to each other anyway! But that is a whole other debate.


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## Mumtomaddog (Sep 17, 2013)

Meezey said:


> If you do lean towards doing it let me know I'm in Belfast and have a few places I get stuff from so might be able to help you out.
> 
> I'm in the process of tracking a man down who does raw for Grey Hounds and arrives at parks in a huge refrigerated van and sells from there
> 
> But I have someone who stock spines, backs, carcasses, ribs,hearts, livers and if you chose to go the complete raw route just found a awesome supplier for that  I don't use minces that much but still good to have :0 Also a Butcher in Carrick, that would depend on here you are of course.


Aah ok, thanks Meezey, i'd appreciate that. I'm over in County Armagh. I have seen the 3 suppliers in Ireland on the raw suppliers thread but one page wouldnt load and the other two i didnt seem to have much luck with.

I did look at the Wolf Tucker site and got really excited until i realised that of course they dont deliver here


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lozzibear said:


> . However, their digestive systems has not changed. .


But that is incorrect, I read up on this before I started feeding raw, because my logical mind told me that there was NO way over 1000's of years of domestication that dogs digestive systems wouldn't have changed, dogs would never of got meat and offal from people as it was expensive and even before cost a high value to a human, every little bit was used.

Our digestive system has changed, what was our appendix for?

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7441/full/nature11837.html

There have been studies to prove the differences basically dogs digestive system is different to wolves.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mumtomaddog said:


> Aah ok, thanks Meezey, i'd appreciate that. I'm over in County Armagh. I have seen the 3 suppliers in Ireland on the raw suppliers thread but one page wouldnt load and the other two i didnt seem to have much luck with.
> 
> I did look at the Wolf Tucker site and got really excited until i realised that of course they dont deliver here


There is a great suppler in Wicklow who drops off to a lot of shows and they are about to start a UK? based site lol so they are going to be delivering up North soon, you can get their complete raw food delivered now, and it is good and delivery is free too 

Products


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Meezey said:


> But that is incorrect, I read up on this before I started feeding raw, because my logical mind told me that there was NO way over 1000's of years of domestication that dogs digestive systems wouldn't have changed, dogs would never of got meat and offal from people as it was expensive and even before cost a high value to a human, every little bit was used.
> 
> Our digestive system has changed, what was our appendix for?
> 
> ...


I can't look at the link just now because I am supposed to be getting ready for work, but I will once I come home tonight. However, it is something that I have researched a lot both before and after starting raw, and I have found nothing to say that their digestive system has changed - just that it hasn't. And the fact that my two are thriving on raw, only meat, bones and organs, tells me that they are managing just fine. I will, however, read the link once I am home.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> I have found nothing to say that their digestive system has changed - just that it hasn't. And the fact that my two are thriving on raw, only meat, bones and organs, tells me that they are managing just fine. I will, however, read the link once I am home.


The anatomy of the digestive tract may not be very different but that does not mean that dogs are not capable of digesting a wider range of food (in terms of digestive enzymes, gut transit time etc). In any case, wolves are not obligate carnivores, and so they already have the ability to derive at least some nutrition from non-animal sources.

My dog is thriving on kibble, so I would also conclude that he is managing just fine...


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## Mumtomaddog (Sep 17, 2013)

Meezey said:


> There is a great suppler in Wicklow who drops off to a lot of shows and they are about to start a UK? based site lol so they are going to be delivering up North soon, you can get their complete raw food delivered now, and it is good and delivery is free too
> 
> Products


Thanks for that link Meezey, when i looked at that site it wouldnt load half the stuff and i couldnt find anywhere that it said they delivered up here.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Dimwit said:


> The anatomy of the digestive tract may not be very different but that does not mean that dogs are not capable of digesting a wider range of food (in terms of digestive enzymes, gut transit time etc). In any case, wolves are not obligate carnivores, and so they already have the ability to derive at least some nutrition from non-animal sources.
> 
> My dog is thriving on kibble, so I would also conclude that he is managing just fine...


Wolves generally only eat other foods in times of desperate need or things like fruits when they are over ripe... So while they can manage it, that to me, is not enough to feed such foods in high amounts.

We can never really know exactly how our dogs are doing unless a full detailed examination is done, mine included. However, I thought I had a healthy dog previously, and it turns out he had a massive tumour... a lot of people will disagree but I believe the crap food he was on was at least part of it... I will never know, and I can't predict that it won't happen with my current dogs, but I will wait and see. I also see a lot of local dogs whose owners will say their dogs are doing well... but, well, I see things their owners obviously aren't. I am not at all saying that you are doing that though, just pointing it out. I need to go now or else I will be really late for work!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lozzibear said:


> I can't look at the link just now because I am supposed to be getting ready for work, but I will once I come home tonight. However, it is something that I have researched a lot both before and after starting raw, and I have found nothing to say that their digestive system has changed - just that it hasn't. And the fact that my two are thriving on raw, only meat, bones and organs, tells me that they are managing just fine. I will, however, read the link once I am home.


I do feed raw, BUT if you google something as simple as:

has the dog's digestive system changed

There are lots of links to show it has, surprisingly if you read those who are talking about the raw debate they say they haven't but if you look at it as a general question not related to raw or kibble there are a surprising amount of studies that say it has evolved along side the humans habits.

"The team then compared corresponding genes in dogs and humans. They found both species underwent similar changes in genes responsible for digestion and metabolism, such as genes that code for cholesterol transport. Those changes could be due to a dramatic change in the proportion of animal versus plant-based foods that occurred in both at around the same time, the researchers said."

"More surprising were genes for digesting starch. Dogs had four to 30 copies of the gene for amylase, a protein that starts the breakdown of starch in the intestine. Wolves have only two copies, one on each chromosome. As a result, that gene was 28-fold more active in dogs, the researchers found. More copies means more protein, and test-tube studies indicate that dogs should be fivefold better than wolves at digesting starch, the chief nutrient in agricultural grains such as wheat and rice. The number of copies of this gene also varies in people: Those eating high carbohydrate dietssuch as the Japanese and European Americanshave more copies than people with starch-poor diets, such as the Mbuti in Africa. "We have adapted in a very similar way to the dramatic changes that happened when agriculture was developed," Axelsson says.

Dogs and wolves have the same number of copies of another gene, MGAM, which codes for maltase, another enzyme important in starch digestion. But there are four key differences between the sequence in dogs and wolves. One difference causes dogs to produce longer versions of maltase. That longer protein is also seen in herbivores, such as cows and rabbits, and omnivores, such as mouse lemurs and rats, but not in other mammals, suggesting length is important to plant-eaters. These differences make the dog maltase more efficient, the researchers report.

Axelsson thinks these results support the idea that wolves began to associate with humans who were beginning to settle down and farm. Waste dumps provided a ready source of food, albeit not meat, the usual diet. Thus early dogs that evolved more efficient starch digestion had an advantage, he notes.

The finding of these diet-related genes is "very surprising and very exciting," says Elaine Ostrander, a geneticist at the National Human Genome Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, who was not connected to the study. "It hints that there are a lot more [genes] to be found" involved in domestication, she adds. As more researchers compare wolf and dog DNA, Ostrander expects more genetic differences between dogs and wolves to emerge. "We are really going to figure [dog evolution] out."


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## Tarnus (Apr 5, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> I can't look at the link just now because I am supposed to be getting ready for work, but I will once I come home tonight. However, it is something that I have researched a lot both before and after starting raw, and I have found nothing to say that their digestive system has changed - just that it hasn't. *And the fact that my two are thriving on raw, only meat, bones and organs, tells me that they are managing just fine.* I will, however, read the link once I am home.


But that's my point. There will always be people with dogs who thrive on raw and those which thrive on commercial, and it's going to be a long, long time before a study can prove whether or not commercial food has a long-term detrimental affect on a dogs health. Similarly there are still those who train using those methods I describe who will talk of happy, healthy and obedient dogs, just as there will be those using positive training methods who have unruly, uncontrollable dogs. Anecdotal evidence should not be used as "proof" than A is better than B.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mumtomaddog said:


> Thanks for that link Meezey, when i looked at that site it wouldnt load half the stuff and i couldnt find anywhere that it said they delivered up here.


They do and it's free I got a box yesterday


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> I also see a lot of local dogs whose owners will say their dogs are doing well... but, well, I see things their owners obviously aren't. I am not at all saying that you are doing that though, just pointing it out.


Ah, but that also works both ways, surely a raw feeder could also not be seeing things that are obvious to others...

I am not against raw, far from it. I just find some of the sweeping statements a bit much. I know that wolves (and dogs for that matter) are designed to eat meat, but there si still no real evidence that it is much better long-term than a good quality commercial food. After all, I am sure that not all wolves in the wild live a long and healthy life - the only difference is that if they pick up and infection from their food, damage their intestines with a bone or suffer from some nurtient deficiency we will not know about it...


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## Tarnus (Apr 5, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> Wolves generally only eat other foods in times of desperate need or things like fruits when they are over ripe... So while they can manage it, that to me, is not enough to feed such foods in high amounts.
> 
> We can never really know exactly how our dogs are doing unless a full detailed examination is done, mine included. However, I thought I had a healthy dog previously, and it turns out he had a massive tumour... a lot of people will disagree but I believe the crap food he was on was at least part of it... I will never know, and I can't predict that it won't happen with my current dogs, *but I will wait and see*. I also see a lot of local dogs whose owners will say their dogs are doing well... but, well, I see things their owners obviously aren't. I am not at all saying that you are doing that though, just pointing it out. I need to go now or else I will be really late for work!


Sorry, but wait and see what? If Jake and Arrow live on to be 15 and die peacefully of old age, does that prove raw is better than commercial, or that the commercial food caused the tumour?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Tarnus said:


> Sorry, but wait and see what? If Jake and Arrow live on to be 15 and die peacefully of old age, does that prove raw is better than commercial, or that the commercial food caused the tumour?


Exactly. All this anecdotal nonsense is just that really; it doesn't mean or prove anything. Health and prevalence of genetic disorders and disease runs way deeper than being dictated by what an animal is fed. Of course it's the same for people, too. My clean living, vegetarian, non smoking, tee-total aunt passed away from cancer at the age of 38. Whereas on the other side of my family, my great grandmother who smoked 30 a day since she was a child, drank booze daily and who's diet consisted of chocolate and sweets passed at 93. As much as we like to think we are 'bettering' the health of something, I think much of it boils down to pot luck and genes.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

labradrk said:


> Exactly. All this anecdotal nonsense is just that really; it doesn't mean or prove anything. Health and prevalence of genetic disorders and disease runs way deeper than being dictated by what an animal is fed. Of course it's the same for people, too. My clean living, vegetarian, non smoking, tee-total aunt passed away from cancer at the age of 38. Whereas on the other side of my family, my great grandmother who smoked 30 a day since she was a child, drank booze daily and who's diet consisted of chocolate and sweets passed at 93. As much as we like to think we are 'bettering' the health of something, I think much of it boils down to pot luck and genes.


I actually posted this in a previous thread, but there is a kennel I know of whose dogs are dying very young, five and six is the norm, but two is heard of too. All raw fed from birth and from parents raw fed too.

I'm not saying raw caused it at all, I am saying that if it's there it may come out no matter what.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Until there is long term research by unbiased parties we can all only do what we think is best for our dogs and cats  I don't tell people they should feed raw because while it works for my cats and dogs I can only go from my experience there is no research to back it up


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I can only go on the dogs I have. (by crap I mean red marked ones based on the index) 

Sadie - eaten crap foods all her life (has Lily's Kitchen and Raw when here) 12 years old and has numerous fatty lumps and an arthritic elbow.. not seen a vet since she was 5 years old. 

Benjie - eaten equally as crap foods, 9 years old, just had half his jaw removed because of cancer. Hadn't seen a vet since he was 1 year old until his tumour started showing. 

Jack - Crap foods until July last year, he came to me able to fill a poo bag with liquid, I put him on Skinners D&R, he firmed up slightly. March this year I switched him to raw. Hasn't seen a vet since his neuter at 2 years old. A few fatty lumps. He's 8 years old. 

Louie - Crap food (cos I didn't know any better) until about a year old. Numerous ear infections. Raw fed 2 years to the date (today). Occasional ear infection when he's eaten something with grains in or submerged himself in mucky water. 3 years old. 

Pennie - crap food till 10 weeks, raw since then. Not seen a vet except for boosters, spay and her unfortunate incident with a rosehip bush. 20 months old. (1 year and 6 months) 

So all in all - crap food may cause issues with some dogs, it did for Louie. But with the others it doesn't give them much trouble. I prefer to feed raw and I don't think it's right to push it on others, if they ask about it, then fine, I will talk to them about it, give them advice, give them sites they can look at things etc. 

Research is the key to raw feeding. And it can be fed wrong. I'm all for advocating it but I'm not surprised when people do get it wrong. I was lucky, I had a friend that fed raw and she helped me through it, without knowing or not, but she answered the questions I had. I have the internet at my fingertips - so I can research things whenever I want, or brush up on some stuff. I have Sixstar and other raw feeding dab hands on here when I'm really stuck and I have my own raw page on FB (in my signature) where new to raw can ask questions, experienced people can answer them, articles can be shared, things can be discussed.. etc etc.. 

I don't proclaim I know everything about raw because I don't. I know a fair bit. But a lot of raw feeding goes on the individual dog. Lou and Pen can tolerate a fair bit of bone, Jack struggles. Jack can eat anything (literally) and his tummy deals with it.. Pen is the same, Lou needs things introducing slowly. My dogs are not the same as my friends dogs. And I don't feed my dogs the same as my friends dogs are fed.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Blitz said:
> 
> 
> > Yip!
> ...


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## Tarnus (Apr 5, 2011)

labradrk said:


> As much as we like to think we are 'bettering' the health of something, I think much of it boils down to pot luck and genes.


I think there is an element of luck and genes, but you can't downplay the importance of trying to better the health of yourself or your dog.

The problem is that nobody can prove whether raw really is healthier than commercial, or even if commercial is detrimental, as the article suggests.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

tbh I doubt even half the people feeding raw are doong it correctly in a balanced way with supplement imo surely those people would be better off with a good quality kibble.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

With regard to the whole 'when there is scientific research...' there IS scientific research, but it goes both ways. It depends what you want to believe a lot of the time. You read and make an informed choice on what is there.

You either listen to:

a) pet food manufacturers, marketers (including vets!) and financiers

or

b) pet owners with personal experience and therefore a very subjective opinion

The biggest thing for me is quality of food my dogs eat. As in, if they are eating a chicken and rice kibble, is that good quality chicken? Or is it horrendous quality? By feeding raw its a bit of a step back as in I feel I see more of what he is eating, which is really quite critical having a dog like Rupert with the issues he has. That was always my primary reason for switching.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

GoldenShadow said:


> With regard to the whole 'when there is scientific research...' there IS scientific research, but it goes both ways. It depends what you want to believe a lot of the time. You read and make an informed choice on what is there.
> 
> You either listen to:
> 
> ...


Hence I said independent research by those who don't use/supply either Raw or Kibble said that a few times...

Can you point me to that long term scientific research?


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

GoldenShadow said:


> You either listen to:
> 
> a) pet food manufacturers, marketers (including vets!) and financiers
> 
> ...


Neither of those choices are classed as scientific research, especially "personal experience" or "subjective opinion".

Scientific research relies on the scientific method of repeatable controlled and most preferably double blind experiments done by experts in the field. Most importantly scientific research should be objective *not* subjective so that biased interpretations are not made.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

GoldenShadow said:


> With regard to the whole 'when there is scientific research...' there IS scientific research, but it goes both ways. It depends what you want to believe a lot of the time. You read and make an informed choice on what is there.
> 
> You either listen to:
> 
> ...


I hate to say this- but the volume and amount of vaccinations , antibiotics, type of food given to all animals that end up in food products, raw or kibble is extremely important.

I cannot afford to feed myself let alone my dog really well sourced meat- i eat meat (white or red) maybe once a week, maybe once every 2 weeks.

I'm pretty happy with the kibble chosen for my dog in terms of quality and attitude to farming


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## sopott (Dec 30, 2012)

i have food allergies. i have spent 12 years trying to find a balanced diet, that i am not allergic too, and contains all the minerals, and stuff that my body needs to keep functioning. i am not a professional, i have no formal training, but i like to eat... 

some dogs are like me, one xtreme of the spectrum, some are like snoopy, who can eat anything with out ill effect. but most dogs fall somewhere in between. since they can't speak it's up to us to find out where they fall. i think it's irresponsible to just assume any food suits your dogs need without thinking further about it. just because it says complete on the box doesn't mean it's right for every dog. 

as previously stated, snoopy can eat anything. i feed him raw, because it satisfies something in his nature. not a nutritional need, but a psychological one. he gets a lot of bone because he gets immense satisfaction from chewing something tasty for an hour. he gets the same satisfaction from tearing apart a rawhide, but why should he inhale kibble and then spend time on chewing something that is not food? 

he is a very healthy happy-go-lucky hound whose been fed exclusively raw for a year now. i was told by a vet recently that although she would never recommend raw feeding (they supply hill's) it seems to suit snoopy.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

TashaMarie said:


> Neither of those choices are classed as scientific research, especially "personal experience" or "subjective opinion".
> 
> Scientific research relies on the scientific method of repeatable controlled and most preferably double blind experiments done by experts in the field. Most importantly scientific research should be objective *not* subjective so that biased interpretations are not made.


You misunderstand my post entirely.

It is incredibly rare to find independent research in the pet sector. There is PLENTY of scientific research. Independent? No. Everyone has a) a financial interest or b) personal interest ie. owns a pet. Good luck finding any which is entirely independent.

I think its quite strange you think I need a definition of scientific research. My argument is based upon bias a person has which stimulates their research, making it questionable. And not just in the food sector, but the pet sector generally. It is the lack of ability to be impartial which I believe makes it very difficult for pet owners to distinguish the grey areas and make up their own mind.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Julesky said:


> I hate to say this- but the volume and amount of vaccinations , antibiotics, type of food given to all animals that end up in food products, raw or kibble is extremely important.
> 
> I cannot afford to feed myself let alone my dog really well sourced meat- i eat meat (white or red) maybe once a week, maybe once every 2 weeks.
> 
> I'm pretty happy with the kibble chosen for my dog in terms of quality and attitude to farming


Its not really there where it stops/my original concern lay to be honest. My lad has so many issues and there are so many ingredients in food that it is very difficult to understand their need. I spent hours of my life asking pet food companies what x or y was and what it did. It wasn't that often I got an answer that I was really happy with.

Feeding raw I know he is eating chicken, beef etc. Things like brewer's yeast and beet pulp were the things that used to bug me the most. There also seems this weird correlation with higher quality foods and adding in all these extras like chicory root etc. For a dog like mine it just made things *so* much more complicated..!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

zedder said:


> tbh I doubt even half the people feeding raw are doong it correctly in a balanced way with supplement imo surely those people would be better off with a good quality kibble.


Sadly I would agree. It also seems to be the latest fad. I would far rather people fed a good quality kibble over raw without looking into how to offer their dog the correct vits etc. Its things like Bakers which need to get the boot.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Hence I said independent research by those who don't use/supply either Raw or Kibble said that a few times...
> 
> Can you point me to that long term scientific research?


About what in particular? You wont get anything that is entirely independent/unbiased.

Note I didn't say long term, you added that.

ETA: And don't forget that in order for a food to be complete it really doesn't have to be very good at all:

Coleshaw explained: 'AAFCO feeding trials consist of at least eight dogs being fed the same diet for 26 weeks. During this time, 25 per cent of the dogs can be removed from the test and the dogs eating the food can lose up to 15 per cent of their weight and condition; the food will still pass the test and be labelled "complete and balanced".'


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

GoldenShadow said:


> About what in particular? You wont get anything that is entirely independent/unbiased.
> 
> Note I didn't say long term, you added that.
> 
> ...


The point I made about research was, how can people such as the OP say it's better than Kibble when there has been no long term independent scientific research, so how can anyone say people SHOULD feed raw because it's better for dogs.

I doubt it will ever happen, but until it does, people can't hand on heart say that Raw is better than kibble, might be for individuals, and kibble might also be.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Meezey said:


> The point I made about research was, how can people such as the OP say it's better than Kibble when there has been no long term independent scientific research, so how can anyone say people SHOULD feed raw because it's better for dogs.
> 
> I doubt it will ever happen, but until it does, people can't hand on heart say that Raw is better than kibble, might be for individuals, and kibble might also be.


Well, that's the point I was making too 

Nearly everyone in the pet sector has a financial and or personal interest which means you just cannot read research and believe it. Needs scrutiny which adds in several grey areas to the subject! I will probably always feed mine raw. Mostly because 1) one of mine did improve on it (always had vile breath on commercial even decent stuff) and 2) with the other having all the problems he does, I prefer the idea of being able to know more about what I feed, which I feel raw (from the sources I use) gives me.


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

GoldenShadow said:


> You misunderstand my post entirely.
> 
> It is incredibly rare to find independent research in the pet sector. There is PLENTY of scientific research. Independent? No. Everyone has a) a financial interest or b) personal interest ie. owns a pet. Good luck finding any which is entirely independent.
> 
> I think its quite strange you think I need a definition of scientific research. My argument is based upon bias a person has which stimulates their research, making it questionable. And not just in the food sector, but the pet sector generally. It is the lack of ability to be impartial which I believe makes it very difficult for pet owners to distinguish the grey areas and make up their own mind.


Sorry I did misunderstand, I thought you were stating that both those options carried significant weight. I've been told trials from pet food manufacturers should be double blind which would eliminate any bias. The key word there is "should" and I don't know how true that really is and I have my doubts. It isn't difficult to be impartial when double blind trials are carried out but the difficulty seems to be in the funding for such a study. I don't know of any scientific research into raw feeding though let alone anything independent so if you could point me in the right direction that'd be a great help. Again sorry for misunderstanding your original post.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

TashaMarie said:


> Sorry I did misunderstand, I thought you were stating that both those options carried significant weight. I've been told trials from pet food manufacturers should be double blind which would eliminate any bias. The key word there is "should" and I don't know how true that really is and I have my doubts. It isn't difficult to be impartial when double blind trials are carried out but the difficulty seems to be in the funding for such a study. I don't know of any scientific research into raw feeding though let alone anything independent so if you could point me in the right direction that'd be a great help. Again sorry for misunderstanding your original post.


Noooooo far from it!

There is plenty of scientific research into raw, not just with dogs, though! I am not on the right computer to access a lot of stuff but this is the first I happened to pick up on Google just now and refers to a study on cats with links to the research in its references:

http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/Research Paper - Raw Diet v Kibble Diet .pdf

Its a subject I am very interested in, I am writing my dissertation currently and it revolves around the ethical implications of marketing in the pet food and immunology sectors. What I have come across is that all the research I have found into commercial foods is by pet food manufacturer's or investors. Similarly, all those adding weight to raw being beneficial have a personal interest in terms of a) career or b) their own pets.

Its really quite horrendous how misleading some things are. It should not be as hard as it is to find a diet for your pet which 1) suits them and 2) suits you and your beliefs. I do feel its commercialism, though. Even raw is becoming commercially popular now, Nature's Menu, Prize Choice etc. You go from oh a dog is derived from a wolf it must eat meat, to having a labrador and a yorkshire terrier and having to feed them completely different foods according to Royal Canin, to sitting somewhere in the middle between the two.

I think they key question is always to ask 'what's in it for them' whenever you read anything by anyone. I hands down admit the reason my dissertation is on the topic it is is because of Rupert. He has had a severe skin condition since he was a very young dog and is 5 now (and relatively stable, thankfully). Therefore I can never write something about dog food/vaccinations which is totally unbiased. I don't think many, perhaps any, of us can!


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2013)

The most confusing terms I hear of in the pet food industry are balanced and complete the last time I checked feral dogs in other countries don't ask a scientest to check out what their eating is balanced. 

Lots say dogs are intolorant to dairy products post weaning yet thats the staple diet of dogs in afganistan (the sheep herders)

Is it really that much of a science balancing a meal? Dogs eat meat mine gets a variety so she gets everything she needs she. She doesn't need a lot of bone in her diet or a lot of offal to get by.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2013)

Prowl said:


> The most confusing terms I hear of in the pet food industry are balanced and complete the last time I checked feral dogs in other countries don't ask a scientest to check out what their eating is balanced.
> 
> Lots say dogs are intolorant to dairy products post weaning yet thats the staple diet of dogs in afganistan (the sheep herders)
> 
> Is it really that much of a science balancing a meal? Dogs eat meat mine gets a variety so she gets everything she needs she. She doesn't need a lot of bone in her diet or a lot of offal to get by.


You're suggesting that feral dogs and dogs that are fed a different diet in different countries are eating a diet that keeps them in tip-top condition? I'm pretty sure that a dog fed on, for example, Wainwrights, is in a better condition than a feral dog and will like a much longer life.

And I feed raw for the record - I just don't have any need to tell others what they should feed.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Prowl said:


> The most confusing terms I hear of in the pet food industry are balanced and complete the last time I checked feral dogs in other countries don't ask a scientest to check out what their eating is balanced.
> 
> Lots say dogs are intolorant to dairy products post weaning yet thats the staple diet of dogs in afganistan (the sheep herders)
> 
> Is it really that much of a science balancing a meal? Dogs eat meat mine gets a variety so she gets everything she needs she. She doesn't need a lot of bone in her diet or a lot of offal to get by.


I'm pretty sure feral dogs aren't eating the best diet for them so not sure what point that is supposed to make


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2013)

"My dog is thriving on raw."
"My dog is thriving on kibble."

Define "thrive".

Lunar was a feral, was eating livestock (goats), roadkill, vermin, and whatever else he could find. He was sick and skinny when we got him. On a mainly kibble diet his body condition did a 180. 

Bates was on a crappy kibble when we got him, we switched him to a high quality kibble and other than smaller poops, his body condition hasn't changed a bit. He has always had a sleek, shiny coat. He has always been in great physical shape. 

A friend of mine has a dog with severe allergies, he's on a well planned raw diet, but he's still not in the best shape, he still needs constant vet attention for his contact allergies, AND he cracked a tooth so they had to have it capped and have to be very careful about what bones he gets. They're spending a small fortune on organic meat not to mention vet bills. No, I don't think this dog would do better on commercial dog food, I'm just using him as an example of "thriving" being relative.


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

sopott said:


> i feed him raw, because it satisfies something in his nature. not a nutritional need, but a psychological one. he gets a lot of bone because he gets immense satisfaction from chewing something tasty for an hour. he gets the same satisfaction from tearing apart a rawhide, but why should he inhale kibble and then spend time on chewing something that is not food?


Regardless of whether or not raw is better than kibble, I have to say this is one of the most compelling and sensible reasons I've ever read for giving it a try.


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

My dog gets a mix of raw and Naturediet. I decided to include ND for a) convenience and b) he has been picking at his bone meals- inhaling everything else but seems like he can`t be bothered with bones! So he is getting ND for calcium aswell. 
He is actually getting more ND at the moment and I`m not going to lie, its for convenience. He is in great condition and his allergies have been helped, so thats good enough for me. I don`t care what others think


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

ouesi said:


> "My dog is thriving on raw."
> "My dog is thriving on kibble."
> 
> Define "thrive".
> ...


This is so true.

My sister feeds pretty rubbish supermarket food yet her Border Collie looks fantastic, has bags of energy and his coat shines! My brother's dog is the same - fed on cheap food and looks fantastic. I know that they may be creating problems for the future but right now if you looked at either of them you would describe them as 'thriving!'. Which makes it next to impossible to tell either of them they should improve the quality of the food they feed! (Not that I ever have - if they asked my opinion I'd give it but they haven't so I haven't.)


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

The dog snow ploughing is Jake who was PTS because of stomach and spinal cancer aged 7. He never looked sick or sorry til one day he couldn't walk. http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj239/marieclairedawson/Jake and Brig/06012010045.mp4

The oncologist at the RVC said it was probably nutrition related-big brand kibble that we thought must be fine or how come shops sell it? I did a heck of a lot of research into ingredients after this and switched to raw which I think is the best option for my dogs.

As an owner, you should try to do the best for your dog. That does not necessarily mean feed it raw, but it does mean don't skimp on research and always buy the best you can afford. These animals rely on us for their care and it is so important to ensure that we do our best for their comfort/health. What does concern me is that people knowingly feed low end food with horrible ingredients and say things like 'He loves it' and 'He's fine on it'. You just can't know unless you have an MRI or blood panel done.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I've been raw feeding for almost 3 years I don't think I'm an expert by any means and would never tell anyone how to feed. I started raw feeding because of Lexi and her allergies every kibble we had her on caused issues and we finally pinned it to a food storage mite allergy. This little mite lives in all dry food and most dogs have no issues however Lexi does. We looked and good quality wet foods but with her having a cereal allergy and not doing well on rice or pasta I looked at raw and haven't looked back. All three of my girls do well on it and I wouldn't look to personally feed kibble again but I would never force that opinion down anyone's throat the only people I try and talk to about food is people that feed bakers.


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## AshaM (Nov 7, 2013)

I feed raw food to all of my dogs. I started learning about raw food more and more and it does make sense. Dogs digestive systems are not built to process kibbles. Natural enzymes and vitamins are destroyed during the cooking and processing stage of commercial dog food production. And you can't ignore that deadly chemicals are added for shelf life. I understand there are high premium kibble, grain free kibble, and prescription kibble but if you look at caloric contribution (water, protein, fat and carb), you can't get anything closer to dog's ancestral diet than raw food.


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## Baggio (Oct 14, 2013)

JessIncaFCR said:


> You cannot compare all commercial foods to KFC/McDonalds
> 
> I cannot feed raw because I do not have the space. Does't make me a bad owner, and doesn't necessarily make my dogs less healthy. I feed them the best quality grain free food I can afford and I do not for a second believe that by doing so I am putting their health at risk.
> 
> If you are going to judge others openly and try and brand all owners who feed commercial diets with the same stick...


Yeah...I have to agree - while raw feeding seems to be the "original" way to feed dogs (I mean, before they were domesticated, and for wild dogs - how did they go without commercial dog food? Raw *IS* what dogs are *SUPPOSED* to eat - I do agree with this), it's not for everyone.

For starters - I think that not a lot of people are comfortable with the notion of switching over - we ourselves eat cooked food - to throw slabs of meat (sorry if it sounds graphic) at our dogs seems a bit of a foreign notion.

Also, raw meat can also contain more bacteria, not to mention lead to things like obstructed airways and diarrhoea, so there's the hygiene issue here.

There's also the cost consideration? It's also more expensive. Not the largest thing to consider, you'd actually think it'd cost less, but it doesn't.

So personally, like JessIncaFCR, we couldn't do raw food for a variety of reasons, and switched Lucky over to home made recipes instead - found a bunch of them here: Dog Food No More | Say NO to Commercial Dog Food!.

Home food is great - personally, I think it's a bit of a compromise between commercial and raw - it's much healthier than commercial, and you don't get the disadvantages of bacterial infection like raw. And you can always control what goes into your dog's stomach - and we (including Lucky) have been very happy with that ever since.

Now that's what I'd call fit for human consumption. 

(We steal off each other's bowls sometimes, haha, Lucky from ours more than the other way round, but yeah


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Baggio said:


> Also, raw meat can also contain more bacteria, not to mention lead to things like obstructed airways and diarrhoea, so there's the hygiene issue here.


More bacteria.. how many recalls for salmonella have there been in the US for dog food? Do you prepare meat for your own meals?

Obstructions.. I've had a dog start to choke on kibble. Luckily I was around watching as I never, no matter what I am feeding leave a dog to eat without supervision.

Diarrhea.. again had it on commercial food.

Cost.. well some people feed raw for less, other cannot.

Raw isn't for everyone. What's important is people consider what they are feeding. Starting by looking at ingredients is a great start.

I always think of NASA. They can't define human nutrition 100%. How can the commercial companies say they can for dogs? The same can be said for raw feeders. Nobody knows 100% about nutrition. It's doing what you feel is right for your dogs.


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