# ok now i need to ask this question.



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

after reading many threads about cross breeding..if breeders know that their breed of dog has health issues,ie like pugs,bulldogs,peeks ect. Why do they still breed them? i'm getting confused..there has been lots said about crossbreeding, but what about the dogs that are accecptable?
i've only named the above dogs as an example, no offence ment to anyone.i'm sure if i had all day the list would be much longer.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

I would assume they keep breeding them because they love their chosen breed and want to preserve and _improve_ it. Part of improving it would be to try and reduce or rule out health problems, which is where health testing comes in.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

breeding dogs and then cross breeding dogs are two different issues arent they? Dogs with traditional 'snout' or gen health probs have nothing to do with cross breeding.
I dont really know what your question is - though people own dogs for many differnt reasons. 
;~)
(agrees with person above)


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

james1 said:


> breeding dogs and then cross breeding dogs are two different issues arent they? Dogs with traditional 'snout' or gen health probs have nothing to do with cross breeding.
> I dont really know what your question is - though people own dogs for many differnt reasons.
> ;~)
> (agrees with person above)


the question is very simple..please read again


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

People breed for different reasons. 
A breeder who is wholeheartedly interested in the well being of their breed , keeps them selves informed of the recognised health probs and genetic traits within the breed and also of the recognised breed standard so they can try to breed as close to this as they can. They do not put any two dogs together and hope for the best. They research lines and pedigrees thoroughly to make sure the dogs are suitable and then only proceed with mating when health tests have come back with good enough scores.
They breed for love of their chosen breed and devote tremendous time , energy and money into their interest.

They put time and effort into properly socialising their pups because they care about them being happy in their new homes. If they show, then socialisation is also important there so that the pups can learn ring craft and be handled well

People who put two random dogs together, untested, might be making puppies, but are not breeding for the same reasons or results.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

i am not talking about crossbreeding in this thread..i think there has been lots about that subject..but as i said at the begining,i'm talking about breeds that have health issues full stop.


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> i am not talking about crossbreeding in this thread..i think there has been lots about that subject..but as i said at the begining,i'm talking about breeds that have health issues full stop.


I'm not talking about crossbreeding either, I am telling you the difference as I see it in people breeding carefully and responsibly, and people who think it's enough to just buy two dogs and let them get it on. It doesn't matter if they are both nominally of the same breed, without knowing the lines they came from and the state of health they are in, it's irresponsible to breed them.
You asked why people breed? I'm trying to explain [obviously not very well] that it is a very wide question and people don't all breed for the same reasons. There are people who breed because they love their breed and want to actively support and improve it, and people who want to make pups to sell as quickly and as cheaply as possible.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ok.let me put it this way...for an example, we all know bulldogs have problems with breathing what i'm asking is why would anyone want to breed such a dog?
i'm not out for an arguement but i think its a fair question.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> ok.let me put it this way...for an example, we all know bulldogs have problems with breathing what i'm asking is why would anyone want to breed such a dog?
> i'm not out for an arguement but i think its a fair question.


From what I can gather Janice, (I do not know much about Bulldogs) a healthy Bulldog shouldn't really have problems breathing. The breed are prone to breathing problems, which are usually corrected by surgery, and I guess would be one of the health conditions people would be trying to rule out.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jackson said:


> From what I can gather Janice, (I do not know much about Bulldogs) a healthy Bulldog shouldn't really have problems breathing. The breed are prone to breathing problems, which are usually corrected by surgery, and I guess would be one of the health conditions people would be trying to rule out.


thankyou jackson, i'm glad someone see's what i'm trying to get at.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

I think Jackson has answered very well,
My breed is relatively healthy,yes we have inhereited conditions,the same as most other breeds,but with testing we can make sure we eliminate carriers and affected's from any breeding programme's by ONLY breeding CLEAR To CLEAR.
Clear dogs have two copies of the normal gene,therefore will never develop the condition,problems start to arise when carriers are mated to another carrier both carry the mutant gene,by breeding two carriers you will produce a percentage of clear, carriers, and affected puppies.
Good Breeders are well aware of conditions within their chosen breeds and will only use tested clear dogs,they are also willing to help and support the research into developing new tests to breed away and eliminate problems within their breeds.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

these dogs that do have breathing problems,can you get one that doesnt have the problem?


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

I understand your question. I deffinatly do not know the answer, but I have a further question to add (if thats okay).
One of the comments made is about testing and knowing the lines a dog comes from to make sure you have a good match makes you a responsible breeder.

But... Surely if you were breeding 'randoms' then you would not have to worry about this, when was the last time you went out on a date and ran a health check on your possible partner so that if (when) you have kids, you know you are compatable?

I hope I haven't taken this off topic, just thought it was relevant. And not being a dog person, please understand these are genuine questions and not trying to provoke trouble.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

helz said:


> I understand your question. I deffinatly do not know the answer, but I have a further question to add (if thats okay).
> One of the comments made is about testing and knowing the lines a dog comes from to make sure you have a good match makes you a responsible breeder.
> 
> But... Surely if you were breeding 'randoms' then you would not have to worry about this, when was the last time you went out on a date and ran a health check on your possible partner so that if (when) you have kids, you know you are compatable?
> ...


lol no you havent takem it off topic...as for a date, that was too long ago
i'm finding it VERY strange that this thread has had little response.
but if i wanted to know about crossbreeding my poodles i would have been pounced on.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> lol no you havent takem it off topic...as for a date, that was too long ago
> i'm finding it VERY strange that this thread has had little response.
> but if i wanted to know about crossbreeding my poodles i would have been pounced on.


Janice im keeping a low profile at the mo
What do you want to know?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> Janice im keeping a low profile at the mo
> What do you want to know?


pmsl...coward

i'm thinking this is a sore subject...but i have TRIED to explain at the begining of this thread..and as i said i'm not choosing any particular breed..i just want to know, WHY when you get certain breeds with known health issues, why people breed that chosen breed.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> pmsl...coward
> 
> i'm thinking this is a sore subject...but i have TRIED to explain at the begining of this thread..and as i said i'm not choosing any particular breed..i just want to know, WHY when you get certain breeds with known health issues, why people breed that chosen breed.


Jan im abit drugged up so hope this makes sense lol
Cavs suffer health problems so i get the tests done at the vets when they are over 12 months old and then if they are clear find a suitable dog that is also clear that way your pups should also not suffer..no guarantees but defo a good place to start.
I also check both dogs lines to see what as bin produced and what problems there have been
If you did not breed from dogs with health problems we would never improve on the breed


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> Jan im abit drugged up so hope this makes sense lol
> Cavs suffer health problems so i get the tests done at the vets when they are over 12 months old and then if they are clear find a suitable dog that is also clear that way your pups should also not suffer..no guarantees but defo a good place to start.
> I also check both dogs lines to see what as bin produced and what problems there have been
> If you did not breed from dogs with health problems we would never improve on the breed


well 10 out 10 for honesty...good on you.
i think more people will or should respect that answer..


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> well 10 out 10 for honesty...good on you.
> i think more people will or should respect that answer..


pmsl well i see these drugs are doing me wonders


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

helz said:


> I understand your question. I deffinatly do not know the answer, but I have a further question to add (if thats okay).
> One of the comments made is about testing and knowing the lines a dog comes from to make sure you have a good match makes you a responsible breeder.
> 
> *But... Surely if you were breeding 'randoms' then you would not have to worry about this, when was the last time you went out on a date and ran a health check on your possible partner so that if (when) you have kids, you know you are compatable?*
> ...


Yes, you would have to worry about this, and that is one of the reason puppy farmed pedigrees are generally less healthy and more tempremental than selctively bred pedigrees.

It is also why line breeding, or even inbreeding, is not aproblem if youknwo what you are doing. But you have to REALLY know what you are doing. It won't create problems, but if they are there, lurking in the pedigree, then breeding two closely related dogs could bring that problem to the forefront. It also brings GOOD traits to the forefront, which is why people do it.

'Randoms' being bred can produce all the same health problems that a selctive breeding can. The difference is, in a selctive breeding, you would be aware of those problems, and so probably not carry out the mating. You'd have an idea what to expect. In a 'random' mating, you wouldn't have a lcue what to expect.

As for using humans as a comparison.  No, we do not health test potential partners and the human race are far more unhealthy and have far more genetic problems than any animal species. We also have by far the most diverse gene pool.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Just a question about the pugs....

I found this statement online: "In Pugs, judges look for the one with the flattest face. Sometimes it is so squashed it means the dog has real problem breathing. "

If thats what the judges look for, doesnt it mean if u try to breed a healthy breathing pup that it will cost u a possible loss of wins?

I dont understand how u would try to improve the breathing problems there?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> Just a question about the pugs....
> 
> I found this statement online: "In Pugs, judges look for the one with the flattest face. Sometimes it is so squashed it means the dog has real problem breathing. "
> 
> ...


I carnt answer this but if i owned pugs i would not want a dog with breathing problems i would want a healthy one


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> I carnt answer this but if i owned pugs i would not want a dog with breathing problems i would want a healthy one


The same here...but are there any pugs without breathing problems availbe?
As as far as i know this is something which cant be tested.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Natik said:


> The same here...but are there any pugs without breathing problems availbe?
> As as far as i know this is something which cant be tested.


Im not sure on this either but defo not heard of a test available but maybe a member with pugs will answer this question


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## Ladywiccana (Feb 24, 2008)

*I would imagine jan, that if any breeders have these dogs, and like you said there are many breeds with health issues!

I would like to think that breeders continue breeding to try and rectify the problems and to get the breed healthy again! Is this possible i wonder?

This thread isnt meant to cause offence to breeders as we all know you look after and have your dogs tested regularly!

Good point raised Jan!*


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

ladywiccana said:


> I would like to think that breeders continue breeding to try and rectify the problems and to get the breed healthy again! Is this possible i wonder?


Of course it's possible,there is nothing wrong in using a Carrier dog to a Clear if the gene pool is small,test for the condition and use a Clear from that mating to further the lines,then you can start breeding clears to clears and eventually eliminate the carriers,therefore eliminating the disease or condition from future generations,so in years to come the condition would not exsist within that breed.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

but there are some breeds for which tests don't exist...like the pug for example. How can this condition be eliminated then?
I dont mean to offend any pug owners/breeders. Im just interested and curious.


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## Ladywiccana (Feb 24, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Of course it's possible,there is nothing wrong in using a Carrier dog to a Clear if the gene pool is small,test for the condition and use a Clear from that mating to further the lines,then you can start breeding clears to clears and eventually eliminate the carriers,therefore eliminating the disease or condition from future generations,so in years to come the condition would not exsist within that breed.


*Well sallyanne that sounded sensible enuf to me! Like i said i cant really comment too much on breeding as i am not a breeder! *


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> but there are some breeds for which tests don't exist...like the pug for example. How can this condition be eliminated then?
> I dont mean to offend any pug owners/breeders. Im just interested and curious.


I'm not sure to be honest,I'm not too familar with Pugs so you would need a Breeder of them to answer that one


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> but there are some breeds for which tests don't exist...like the pug for example. How can this condition be eliminated then?
> I dont mean to offend any pug owners/breeders. Im just interested and curious.


i think you and i are thinking the same thing..and i personaly dont see how they can get rid of this breathing problem,otherwise why havent they?


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> i think you and i are thinking the same thing..and i personaly dont see how they can get rid of this breathing problem,otherwise why havent they?


I don't know much about Pugs, so again, I can't especially answer. I can ask on another forum though, where someone breeds them?

It is very easy to make negative comments without really knowing much about the breeds concerned, especially in light of the recent BBC programme. 

Those who i do know with Pugs say they do not have problems breathing, and are energetic litle dogs. There were two at ringcraft last week I spoke to, and they certainly didn't seem to be having problems breathing. Then again, there was a Bulldog that sounded distinctly 'snuffly'.

It is a shame Nicki isn't here to comment, as she had Bulldogs and would be far better positioned to comment.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I dont know much about pugs either but i looked into this bread out of interest and im shocked.
This are the health issues i found realated to pugs.
Eyes:
1. Cataracts 
2. Distichiasis 
3. Entropion
4. Exposure keratopathy syndrome
5. Keratoconjunctivitis sicca (Dry eye)
6. PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy) 
7. Pannus
8. Pigmentary Keratitis 
9. Corneal Ulcer

Muzzle 
10. ESP (Elongated Soft Palate)
11. Stenotic Nares

Intestinal 
12. Intussusception

Legs 
13.Luxating Patella 

Neurological 
14.PDE (Pug Dog Encephalitis) 

I honestly dont want to talk this breed down, they are probably great pets, but i think so many possible health issues is just to much 
Also because of their flat face they overheat too quick. 
I dont understand why people risk all this by breeding pugs? 
But maybe some pug breeder will answer this


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> I dont know much about pugs either but i looked into this bread out of interest and im shocked.
> This are the health issues i found realated to pugs.
> Eyes:
> 1. Cataracts
> ...


i take my hat off to you.you have hit the nail on the head about what i wanted to know..but why do i think we wont get an answer?


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

We've just got back from hols in Devon and the lady who owns the farm where we stayed has 6 Pugs - they were all delightful and absolutely fit as fleas!! They used to tear round the farm like looneys - I'd say to Benson 'ey up lad, Pug alert' and after a few days he knew they were on their way

If you research any breed then you will come up with some hereditary conditions - from memory I think the healthiest breed of dog is the Border Terrier


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jo P said:


> We've just got back from hols in Devon and the lady who owns the farm where we stayed has 6 Pugs - they were all delightful and absolutely fit as fleas!! They used to tear round the farm like looneys - I'd say to Benson 'ey up lad, Pug alert' and after a few days he knew they were on their way
> 
> If you research any breed then you will come up with some hereditary conditions - from memory I think the healthiest breed of dog is the Border Terrier


I understand what ur saying.
But have u watched the dogs 24 hrs?
Have u asked if they had any corrective operations in the past (as this is not unusuall in pugs)
Have u watched them sleeping?
Have u seen them in hot weather?
Also have u seen them giving birth? (most pugs are not able to give natural birth, they need a cesaeren)

Yes, every breed has his problems...but so many? 
Why create a dog like this in first place?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> I understand what ur saying.
> But have u watched the dogs 24 hrs?
> Have u asked if they had any corrective operations in the past (as this is not unusuall in pugs)
> Have u watched them sleeping?
> ...


and may i just say.the peeks have the same problems with giving birth.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Im no way condoning the breeding of bad breeding, though the answer seems to lay in personal choice. The choice of dog to any individual is exactly that: what turns you on about one breed will turn you off about another.
Theres a practicality issue too - a farmer wouldnt use a miniture and a grandpa wouldnt use a Dane.
I think in all respects to cut off or make extinct a breed because of health issues is like saying great white sharks should be killed as they eat everything. (I hope you get the analogy) 
In other words the joy they give you is reflected in the pain when they go, it doesnt mean they havent enjoyed a life.

James


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

james1 said:


> Im no way condoning the breeding of bad breeding, though the answer seems to lay in personal choice. The choice of dog to any individual is exactly that: what turns you on about one breed will turn you off about another.
> Theres a practicality issue too - a farmer wouldnt use a miniture and a grandpa wouldnt use a Dane.
> I think in all respects to cut off or make extinct a breed because of health issues is like saying great white sharks should be killed as they eat everything. (I hope you get the analogy)
> In other words the joy they give you is reflected in the pain when they go, it doesnt mean they havent enjoyed a life.
> ...


I didnt know that someone can be turned on by health issues like the ones in the pug  
At the end its the dog that suffers and not the human. Hey, but as long u can get what u like


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Natik said:


> I understand what ur saying.
> But have u watched the dogs 24 hrs?
> Have u asked if they had any corrective operations in the past (as this is not unusuall in pugs)
> Have u watched them sleeping?
> ...


Did you read my post?????????????????????? I was on holiday - no I didnt give this lady the third degree about her dogs health - I was merely passing comment on the Pugs that I saw there - of course I didnt see them give birth, what a numb question - would you let a stranger view your dog giving birth
But I'll answer the questions that I can - yes, I saw them in hot weather - they were fine. Yes, I saw them sleeping - they were fine. No, I didnt watch them for 24 hrs - as previously stated I dont 'know' these people so how could I.
Sorry if my post wasnt what you wanted to read - perhaps I'd better delete it and just slate the breed as a whole.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Perhaps we can have a discussion on the health issue of GSD's - lets start with this site

German Shepherd Dog Health Problems


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

They are not all like that Natik a friend of ours has a litter of pugs just born all delivered normally and they run and play with her partners cocker and australian shepherd. If they are bred properly then they dont have probs with everyday life.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

tashi said:


> They are not all like that Natik a friend of ours has a litter of pugs just born all delivered normally and they run and play with her partners cocker and australian shepherd. If they are bred properly then they dont have probs with everyday life.


Of course they will not all have all the problems, but its true that they do have problems in hot weather with overheating because of their flat face and most pugs do need cesaerens.

I looked into breeders websites and alot of them are stating that if u decide to purchase a pug that u have to be aware that this breed will mostly have these problems in life. And that they need special care with making sure they do not overheat and that they shouldnt be over-excersised because of their breathing problems. Why would a breeder warn their buyers if it wouldnt be true and so common in pugs?


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> I dont know much about pugs either but i looked into this bread out of interest and im shocked.
> This are the health issues i found realated to pugs.
> Eyes:
> 1. Cataracts
> ...


These issues maybe be related to pugs,but not all dogs are going to have these,I know some of those conditions listed above can be tested for.

My breed has issues,
L2 HGA,HC,PHPV & PPSC,
Alot of dogs within our breed are L2/HC Clear and PHPV PPSC Unaffected.
So just because conditions are listed doesn't mean the whole population of dogs within that breed will be affected.

Any bitch can end up having a C-Section.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Just looked on Champdogs and there are 4 litters of Pugs that state 'self-whelped' - thats exactly half of the litters listed.


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## StolenkissGerbils (Aug 8, 2008)

Natik said:


> I dont know much about pugs either but i looked into this bread out of interest and im shocked.
> This are the health issues i found realated to pugs.
> ....._insert health conditions here_...
> I honestly dont want to talk this breed down, they are probably great pets, but i think so many possible health issues is just to much
> ...


Ok well look I'm not a pug breeder but let me give my thoughts on why people breed dogs which have inherent "issues" such as flat face problems, bowed leg problems and whatever else you care to mention. I'm not talking about the obvious answer of the puppy farmer or BYB who is just doing it to offload cute pups on unsuspecting members of the public for profit.

People love these dogs as pets and companions, for their character and personality, for their looks (one man's ugly dog is another man's beauty) and because breeding dogs can be an enjoyable, if expensive and risky, hobby. The best breeders will be aware of the health problems faced. In all reality, a breed with many possible health problems and a genetic bottleneck such as many breeds do nowadays (Popular Sire Syndrome etc) is never going to have a dog available that is totally free of genetic or family implication for the diseases concerned. What good breeders will aim to do is make the best of a bad situation and mate the healthiest to the healthiest and hope for the best, because they feel that the good qualities these dogs possess makes it worthwhile.

When you are working with a genetic stock that is rife with issues, you are faced with three options: 
*a)* use affected or carrier animals judiciously in a breeding program and aim to reduce the "affecteds" produced gradually over generations; 
*b)* eliminate all but a very small number of "clear" or "pedigree free of implication" animals from breeding and cause an unacceptable level of inbreeding (which will only lead to more problems of its own, even if you start with healthy animals, we all know intense inbreeding for many generations causes vitality and general quality to decrease); or 
*c)* let the breed go extinct.

There is no ideal choice in these three. Owners of a certain breed which is having trouble would likely find it impossible to contemplate just giving up and letting it go extinct. They love their pets after all. You will find some short-sighted "purists" who will go down route B but the only workable option in the long term, if we want the breed to survive, is A. It isn't a happy choice but it's the only one we can sensibly make.

This is why good breeders may be forced to continue breeding from stock or lines with problems. The other options are non-starters.

As for why people would breed these dogs in the first place, well...exaggeration from fashion over time has often played its part. The pug or bulldog of today is a lot more exaggerated than its predecessor, for example. It's unlikely that people who fell in love with these breeds as they are nowadays will find reverting to the original "look" acceptable. Whether you or I agree with that view is not the point. The point is that the genetic stock available in these breeds would make it damn near impossible to get back to how the dogs looked in the old days anyway. One needs to work with the material one has. Without outcrossing to another breed (something that wouldn't be popular either) the changes made to a breed in our own lifetimes will be rather small - down to the kinds of differences between animals that only a trained eye could easily spot. We are not going to see a purebred pug look like the pug of old anymore. We aren't going to see the old timey bulldogs that looked like staffies reappearing anytime soon.

So in summary: the reason people breed these animals is to make the best of the bad situation they find themselves in due to breeding mistakes made by past generations - those who didn't have the scientific data available to them to predict the problems that their choices would cause 50 years later.

NB: This is only my opinion on why these dogs are bred, this is not a comment on whether I would breed them or whether I agree or disagree with it all.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I take it the breeders prewarn just so about the health issues which a buyer has to be aware of and also about the special care pugs need? 

Is a dog a healthy dog if it can die if the human doesn't ensure to keep the pug cool so it doesn't overheat?

Please don't take me wrong on this one, as I understand what ur saying. But pugs wouldnt be so known for their problems if the problems would be so rare.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Natik said:


> I take it the breeders prewarn just so about the health issues which a buyer has to be aware of and also about the special care pugs need?
> 
> Is a dog a healthy dog if it can die if the human doesn't ensure to keep the pug cool so it doesn't overheat?
> 
> Please don't take me wrong on this one, as I understand what ur saying. But pugs wouldnt be so known for their problems if the problems would be so rare.


I warn people of the health issues with any of our breeds before they even come to see the pups, they should be made aware of breed specific problems so they can go away and think about it before coming to see the cuteness that is a pup


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

So are u saying that the flat face of a pug is not a problem if bred propely?
And that if it needs to be cooled down during hot weather is because of bad breeding?

And why do breeders breed this flat face in first place? What positive effect does it has on the dog (as its the dog that matters, right?)


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Im sure ive seen a pug breeder on here to answer these questions...carnt think what the members name was


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

more info

History of the Pug


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

"Because Pugs lack longer snouts and prominent skeletal brow ridges, they are susceptible to eye injuries such as puncture wounds and scratched corneas and painful Entropion. Pugs also have compact breathing passageways, which can cause problems with their breathing or their ability to regulate their temperature through evaporation from the tongue. These complications can lead to accelerated injury or death should they be left in hot locations where cooling cannot properly take place such as cars on hot days or in outdoor conditions in temperatures over 80 degrees Fahrenheit (27°C)."

"The Pug, like other short-snouted breeds, has an elongated palate. When excited, they are prone to a "reverse sneeze" where the dog will quickly, and seemingly laboriously, gasp and snort. This is caused by fluid or debris getting caught under the palate and irritating the throat or limiting breathing."

"Most Pugs are born via cesarean section. Some breeders watch over their expecting mothers for the last 3 weeks of their pregnancy as the mother Pug, due to their pushed in face and jaw, are unable to break the birth sack when the pups are born, so the human must do this for her. (probably thats what some breeders do if no cesaeran is done)" This doesnt count as self-whelping IMO

"As Pugs have many wrinkles in their faces, owners must take special care to clean inside the creases, as irritation and infection can result from improper care."

Really no offence from my side, i just find it really upsetting that this dogs dont have a choice. And humans talk this things nice


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Natik said:


> I didnt know that someone can be turned on by health issues like the ones in the pug
> At the end its the dog that suffers and not the human. Hey, but as long u can get what u like


In response, Huskies are bred for the outdoors - now kept as house pets
Bull terriers were taken onto ships to keep rats away - now kept at home
Poodles were used for hunting - now paraded
Vimeranas used for hunting/pointing - again used as 'pets'

No matter where you look at whatever breed you take on - you are taking them on for a purpose to suit your own needs. Does mental health enter into the equation or just physical?. 
As im sure there are MORE dogs bored out of their mind ripping up duvets or your post than there are suffering through genetic deficiencies.

Just answering a question that nobodies seems to realise. That "as pet owners" we all sacrifice some of that breed for our own demands. My point being that hereditary conditions are widespread in all animals though the pride and care you put into them is reflected in the attention you get from them.

James.

and just read the post above - What dog doesnt overheat in 27 degree heat!????!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

james1 said:


> In response, Huskies are bred for the outdoors - now kept as house pets
> Bull terriers were taken onto ships to keep rats away - now kept at home
> Poodles were used for hunting - now paraded
> Vimeranas used for hunting/pointing - again used as 'pets'
> ...


Maybe its just me but u don't make sense to me.
what is all that to do with a dogs flat face?

And I lived in countries with summer temperatures of 35-40 degrees and our dogs never died of it or we didnt have to put ice packs on their throat to help them breathing.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> after reading many threads about cross breeding..if breeders know that their breed of dog has health issues,ie like pugs,bulldogs,peeks ect. Why do they still breed them? i'm getting confused..there has been lots said about crossbreeding, but what about the dogs that are accecptable?
> i've only named the above dogs as an example, no offence ment to anyone.i'm sure if i had all day the list would be much longer.


Sorry, I've come to this a bit late so I'm returning to the original question. I would make this point. At least the responsible and reputable breeders of pedigree dogs (I'm not including the puppy farmers and backyard breeders in this) know what the health problems of their breed are likely to be so that they can take steps (through testing, matching of pedigrees, comparison of attributes etc) to minimise the likelihood of health problems occurring in the dogs they breed. With crossbreeds, it is much more difficult to assess before breeding, how the different potential health problems of the two or more breeds being crossed might impact upon a litter of pups. An example of this can be seen in the Northern Inuit "breed" (and related "breeds" - British Inuits, Utonagans, Tamascans etc etc), where far from the "new breed" displaying "hybrid vigour," it is actually significantly less healthy than the breeds from which it was manufactured only 20 years ago.

Mick


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Natik said:


> Maybe its just me but u don't make sense to me.
> what is all that to do with a dogs flat face?
> 
> And I lived in countries with summer temperatures of 35-40 degrees and our dogs never died of it or we didnt have to put ice packs on their throat to help them breathing.


My point shouldnt need explaining though to clarify: Simply because you dont own or breed a dog with breathing, organ or bone conditions doesnt make you a better or more perfect owner of a pet. There are plenty of dogs with conditions in our lives that we dont put down but care for and prolong their lives as a reciprocal agreement between dog and owner.
The question is simply a selfish one in my opinion - for reasons stated previous.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

james1 said:


> My point shouldnt need explaining though to clarify: Simply because you dont own or breed a dog with breathing, organ or bone conditions doesnt make you a better or more perfect owner of a pet. There are plenty of dogs with conditions in our lives that we dont put down but care for and prolong their lives as a reciprocal agreement between dog and owner.
> The question is simply a selfish one in my opinion - for reasons stated previous.


sorry you've lost me...i havent said or asked about whether people are better or worse for owning ANY dog..what seemed to be a very straightforward question has obviously confused some people.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

james1, I'm not going to comment on what u said because u seem to be missing out what this thread is about. 

My point is the flat face of a pug is bred on purpose ... And that this flat face causes breathing problems is something we all know.
so why do the breeders breed this flat face knowing that this can or causes the dog breathing problems (and if flatter the better chance to win in a show ring) ????

I guess thats a simlple question 

Anyway, I thought this debate was really interesting, just a shame that nobody really had a proper answer to this for some reason


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Nice to hear from you janice, I am making a similar point to that of what your making - that of general owner responsibility. You and Natik are making point that pug breeds or similar shouldnt be bred with short snouts if at all. I do get that. What you dont seem to get is that people have different needs and appeals from dogs.
I am not condoning it (short snouts) as said in my 1st post, however you cant take a pop at anyone that might own a breed you disagree with.

And in a point earlier; there are far more dogs with bad habbits such as eating your sofa, done through boredom, than there are ones with deificiencies. Which generates the idea of if infact we (as a owners) are infact doing the best for our dogs at all. (see earlier post on this page)

James


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## Sgurr (Aug 24, 2008)

Yes, I'm late coming to this thread too.

If the question is why do people breed 'unhealthy' breeds and lets stay with the pug as an example, then you have to ask in the same breath, why do people want to have them as pets? And they are one of the more popular breeds at the moment I believe.

So it must be something about the breed character (appearance, size, general temperament etc) that appeals to people - maybe it is the squashed up face that appeals and also causes the breathing problems in individual dogs.

The list of health issues for the pug looks ominously long but many of those conditions just occur in the species and any dog could have them - hip dysplasia, entropion, progressive retinal atrophy for example. The ones specific to the pug are the result of a hundred years or so of breeding and there is no magic wand to wave and eliminate them.

What can be done to improve the health of the pug while keeping the character of the breed will be done by responsible breeders but it has to be a long term project. The Kennel Club Breed Health and Welfare Strategy Group over the next weeks and months will be meeting representatives of a number of brachicephalic breeds such as the pug. 
To improve the breed, people will be making use of veterinary health checks and DNA testing but this will take time and dedication and a defined breeding strategy.

In the short term though, as long as the public will buy pugs, there will be puppy farmers and back yard breeders to fill the need.

So some people will continue to breed pugs because they love the breed and will do what they can to reduce the health issues.
And some people will continue to breed them for the money.

Sgurr


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

That still doesnt answer the question 

So squrr..is ur statemant that the pugs with breathing problems are only bred by puppy farmers or byb? That just a little percentege of pugs bred properly suffer from breathing problems ? 
That this squashed face, if bred properly, is no problem at all?

Or that responsible breeders dont breed this squashed face and dont bother about winning at the shows? (as like said if flatter the better)

And my point is....they do not reduce the health issue (squashed face = breathing problems)....they continue breeding it as this is what wins shows.

And to breed a squashed face like this because simply people like it is cruel IMO

But im over and out of this thread lol 
Simply because i cant get nowehere with my question....people seem to talk around it and dont get to the point im trying to make.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

I've just read the breed standard for the pug and it doesn't mention a squashed up flat face 

It states the following,
Head and Skull
Head large, round, not apple-headed, with no indentation of skull. Muzzle short, blunt, square, not upfaced. Wrinkles clearly defined.

So again it will depend on the Breeders and Judges interpretation of that.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Natik if you read pages 4 and 5 of this thread - I think you will find the answers to your question. 
Post/threads such as this on an open forum are bound to bring back comments you dont like - if you dont like them then dont post them? or maybe post them on a site such as the AHA.

James


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

james1 said:


> Nice to hear from you janice, I am making a similar point to that of what your making - that of general owner responsibility. You and Natik are making point that pug breeds or similar shouldnt be bred with short snouts if at all. I do get that. What you dont seem to get is that people have different needs and appeals from dogs.
> I am not condoning it (short snouts) as said in my 1st post, however you cant take a pop at anyone that might own a breed you disagree with.
> 
> And in a point earlier; there are far more dogs with bad habbits such as eating your sofa, done through boredom, than there are ones with deificiencies. Which generates the idea of if infact we (as a owners) are infact doing the best for our dogs at all. (see earlier post on this page)
> ...


james PLEASE read my question more carefully..o'm not talking about ownership...i'm asking SHOULD dogs WITH KNOWN health issues be bred..
i'm going to put this plain and simple...would you knowingly bring a child into this world knowing full well it would have health problems?
and for those that are thinking children and dogs are different,,many have said that their dags are their children,or that they treat them the same.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

No Ethical breeder would breed from dogs with known positive health issues imo


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> james PLEASE read my question more carefully..o'm not talking about ownership...i'm asking SHOULD dogs WITH KNOWN health issues be bred..
> i'm going to put this plain and simple...would you knowingly bring a child into this world knowing full well it would have health problems?
> and for those that are thinking children and dogs are different,,many have said that their dags are their children,or that they treat them the same.


Going slightly off topic here,
I knew from my 18 week scan that my youngest was going to have problems,the main concern was his kidneys,one was dilated and polycystic,they were not sure about the other,should I have terminated ?

I didn't as I don't believe in abortion,he was born with kidney problems and a Cleft Palate,no history of either condition in our family.
So yes I did bring into the world a child with problems,he has one functioning kidney and has numerous ops to repair his palate.
I don't think you can compare this in anyway to breeding,Sorry.


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Going slightly off topic here,
> I knew from my 18 week scan that my youngest was going to have problems,the main concern was his kidneys,one was dilated and polycystic,they were not sure about the other,should I have terminated ?
> 
> I didn't as I don't believe in abortion,he was born with kidney problems and a Cleft Palate,no history of either condition in our family.
> ...


Very well said


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## Sgurr (Aug 24, 2008)

Just a quick google on health problems with toy and minature poodles can up with

Genetically based disorders in the Toy and Miniature include:

(Click on the name for more detailed information)

Progressive Retinal Atrophy a disorder of the eye in which the light cells in the retina wither and die due to insufficient blood supply. the disease progresses Gradually, results in blindness and has no known cure. Its onset in the Poodle is between 5 to 6 years old. The presence of PRA can be detected by ophthalmascopic examination by a veterinary ophthalmologist. 
Corneal Dystrophy - Corneal dystrophies" are diseases of the cornea that are bilateral, non-inflammatory and inherited. 
Legg-Calve'-Perthes - a disorder in which non-inflammatory a vascular necrosis of the femoral neck and head result in one of both of a young dog's rear legs becoming lame. Irritability and pain are other primary symptoms. Some dogs recover and function without treatment, but in severe case surgical removal of the femur head is indicated. 
Patella Sub-luxation - or slipped kneecap, a condition in which the patella slides in and out of the groove where it is normally held in place by ligaments. This causes hopping or favoring of the leg until the kneecap slips back into place. In some cases, in can be surgically corrected. 
Epilepsy - a neurological disorder marked by recurring seizures that follow episodic, abnormal discharges of electrical impulses by nerve cells in the brain. As in humans, it is controlled with drugs such as Phenobarbital or Dilantin. 
Hypothyroidism - a condition resulting from an inadequate production of thyroid hormone. Also treated with drug therapy, its symptoms include a coarse, brittle coat that falls out, thickening and discoloration of the skin, lethargy, obesity, mental slowness and irregular heart cycles. 
Cryptorchidism - or undescended testicle, a condition in which one or both testicles are retained in the abdominal cavity. Hormone injections, given to stimulate testicular descent, sometimes are successful. When the treatment is unsuccessful, removal of the testicles is recommended because cryptorchid testicles may become cancerous. 
Mitral Valve Disease - The heart consists of 4 chambers - 2 atria and 2 ventricles. The atrioventricular (AV) valves ensure that the blood flows from the atria to the ventricles when the heart beats. A defect in the mitral valve (the left atrioventricular valve) causes backflow of blood into the left atrium, or mitral regurgitation. Less commonly, a narrowing or stenosis of the valve can be identified. Because of the leaky valve, the heart is less efficient at pumping blood to the body. 
Autoimmune Hemolytic Anemia (AIHA) - A decrease in the number of red blood cells (RBC's) or the amount of hemoglobin, resulting in a decrease in the oxygen- carrying capacity of the blood.
Cushings Disease - This is a disease that occurs from the overproduction of cortisone by the adrenal glands. 

So should toy poodles be bred or should they just be allowed to die out? They obviously have a number of known health problems.
It would be interesting to see Janice199's answer to her own question in relation to the breed she favours.

I could pull out a similar list for Springers, or any recognised breed. I breed ESS but I use veterinary procedures and DNA tests to ensure the sire and dam are clear of known health problems.

Sgurr


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

Going by conditions within some breeds my breed is pretty healthy 

I would also be interested in Janice's answer,thanks for posting Squrr.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Going slightly off topic here,
> I knew from my 18 week scan that my youngest was going to have problems,the main concern was his kidneys,one was dilated and polycystic,they were not sure about the other,should I have terminated ?
> 
> I didn't as I don't believe in abortion,he was born with kidney problems and a Cleft Palate,no history of either condition in our family.
> ...


Totally agree. Well said.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I'm not strong willed and have to give in and reply 

Sallyanne... U did definitly choose the right way by not having an abortion. I am against abortion too. 
But how would u decide if u wouldnt have been pregnant and a doctor would tell u that ur child will have serious problems with breathing when its born...would u still decide to get pregnant on purpose? 

My problem is that the face of the pug is bred on purpose like this.
And we can name all the health issues of all breeds, but the squashed face is something the breeder tries to breed as flat as possible. They do not try to make this better. And thats what I have a problem with.
so naming all the health issues (I know I have done it too) from other breed to backfire doesn't explain why breeders breed this squashed face on purpose knowing that it causes breathing problems.

I really don't know how else to explain my point. Good breeders try to prevent the illnesses with testing and so on but don't breed them on purpose


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

Natik said:


> I'm not strong willed and have to give in and reply
> 
> Sallyanne... U did definitly choose the right way by not having an abortion. I am against abortion too.
> But how would u decide if u wouldnt have been pregnant and a doctor would tell u that ur child will have serious problems with breathing when its born...would u still decide to get pregnant on purpose?
> ...


Again conditions exsist within the NI,one was PTS yesterday with temprement and agression problems,HD,vWD,Addisons,Epilpsey,breeders are NOT testing and denying there are problems,yet these conditions are showing themselves,the vet had to be called to one as they couldn't bring it out of a fit,the dog was PTS.They also know which dogs are likely to be causing the problems yet still breeding from them.
Surely NI's shouldn't be bred either ?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> I'm not strong willed and have to give in and reply
> 
> Sallyanne... U did definitly choose the right way by not having an abortion. I am against abortion too.
> But how would u decide if u wouldnt have been pregnant and a doctor would tell u that ur child will have serious problems with breathing when its born...would u still decide to get pregnant on purpose?
> ...


Maybe you would be better contacting well known Pug Breeders and asking Why they breed squashed faces on purpose as Sallyanne already posted the Standard


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I never once said that the pug has to be stopped bred 

All I'm trying to say that for the sake of the dog the breeders should try to breed pugs with a more normal face. As thats what good breeders do... Eliminate the health issue! 

I dont understand why u are trying to rub the ni health under my nose? because I own one? 
The breeders who breed bad ni should be stopped of course! But there are responsible breeders within this breed... And u can't brush them all with the same brush


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> Maybe you would be better contacting well known Pug Breeders and asking Why they breed squashed faces on purpose as Sallyanne already posted the Standard


it states: muzzle short  thats not really good info. Short can mean anything. And of course squashed wouldnt sound as nice.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> it states: muzzle short  thats not really good info. Short can mean anything. And of course squashed wouldnt sound as nice.


T he rest---Muzzle short, blunt, square, not upfaced. Wrinkles clearly defined.
Now not upfaced-- if it was upfaced it would look "squashed"as in nose pushed up/in similiar to Japanese Chin's, theirs are upturned


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

Natik said:


> I never once said that the pug has to be stopped bred
> 
> All I'm trying to say that for the sake of the dog the breeders should try to breed pugs with a more normal face. As thats what good breeders do... Eliminate the health issue!
> 
> ...


I agree but are you aware the president and founder breeder has cruelty convictions,she was banned for keeping a dog for 5 yrs,it's the dogs she bred which are causing the problems for the NI,all NI's go back to her breeding.I doubt you will even get a pedigree without a Malhek dog been present in the lines.
Yes there maybe good breeders but unless they are told the truth they are breeding blind.Denying conditions exsist and breeding regardless is no way to take a breed forward.They are NOT even testing unlike those good reputable breeders of pedigree dogs.
I'm not targeting the breed because you own one,but all breeds have issues,yet you have singled out the pug without talking to breeders of the breed and making assumptions.
Yes breathing problems are bad but so are dogs suffering with epilpsey and and ending up been PTS because they can't stop the fitting.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> T he rest---Muzzle short, blunt, square, not upfaced. Wrinkles clearly defined.
> Now not upfaced-- if it was upfaced it would look "squashed"as in nose pushed up/in similiar to Japanese Chin's, theirs are upturned


Its far to short the muzzle , upfaced, downfaced or whatever else. thats why a pug makes this "snorting" noise even if bred properly to this standard. Also when they sneeze its reversed sneezing which causes loss of breath in a proper bred pug. 
IMO thats not healthy


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I agree but are you aware the president and founder breeder has cruelty convictions,she was banned for keeping a dog for 5 yrs,it's the dogs she bred which are causing the problems for the NI,all NI's go back to her breeding.I doubt you will even get a pedigree without a Malhek dog been present in the lines.
> Yes there maybe good breeders but unless they are told the truth they are breeding blind.Denying conditions exsist and breeding regardless is no way to take a breed forward.They are NOT even testing unlike those good reputable breeders of pedigree dogs.
> I'm not targeting the breed because you own one,but all breeds have issues,yet you have singled out the pug without talking to breeders of the breed and making assumptions.
> Yes breathing problems are bad but so are dogs suffering with epilpsey and and ending up been PTS because they can't stop the fitting.


I knew about the founder breeder.
but here we are like with all other breeds.... Responsible breeders will try their best to eliminate the issues. And I'm sure or hope responsible breeders of the ni are aware of this. The problem is the ni is a new rare breed and people take advantage of this.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> Its far to short the muzzle , upfaced, downfaced or whatever else. thats why a pug makes this "snorting" noise even if bred properly to this standard. Also when they sneeze its reversed sneezing which causes loss of breath in a proper bred pug.
> IMO thats not healthy


Reverse sneezing is not heridetary and can happen in any breed. 2 of my dogs do it

Reverse Sneezing

Many Pug owners have experienced their dog having what appears to be a "breathing attack". It can be quite frightening to see for the first time. Reverse sneezing is characterized by a series of forced inhalations, and snorting through the nostrils (gasping inwards). It may last for a few seconds or up to 1 minute or more. These attacks often occur on a sporadic, unpredictable basis.

Pugs usually have the head extended forward and stand still during the attack. There is no loss of consciousness or collapse. Many Pugs and other dogs have these attacks throughout their lives. The exact cause of reverse sneezing is unknown, but it may be associated with sinusitis and other upper respiratory disorders. Many believe affected dogs are consciously removing mucus from the nasal passages. In fact, many dogs swallow at the end of the attack.

Occasionally another possible cause is a foreign body lodged in the nostril or it could be an allergy to something causing/exacerbating the problem. Whatever the cause, the condition is usually not serious. If the condition appears suddenly in an older dog or if episodes become more severe or frequent, the nasal passages and throat should be examined by a vet.

Treatment

Treatment is not necessary when the episodes occur infrequently on a random basis. Calming your Pug during an attack may shorten the episode. Massaging the Pug's throat gently may help. Worsening episodes may need to be treated medically. Consult your vet for advice if you are worried.

Watch for these Signs:

1. The severity or frequency of the reverse sneezing changes.
2. Your Pug develops a discharge from the nose or a cough.
3. Your Pug appears sick.


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

clueless said:


> Reverse sneezing is not heridetary and can happen in any breed. 2 of my dogs do it
> 
> Reverse Sneezing
> 
> ...


Our GSD does that! It's really odd but she doesnt seem that bothered after it's happened


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Janice199 - shame on you.
Natik - give it up, breeds exist for pleasure and we try to make the most of it.

unbelievable


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

bee112 said:


> Our GSD does that! It's really odd but she doesnt seem that bothered after it's happened


My 2 are fine after it as well. I cover their noses with my hand cupped for few seconds during it and it seems to stop quicker


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## Bindura (Sep 17, 2008)

Ok, only just read this thread, so my reply is perhaps overdue and I may not answer all questions. I am a pug owner, breederand exhibitor. 

We do NOT breed pugs so they can not breathe. If a pug should have any problems with breathing then they should NOT be bred from, end of story. Pugs do sometimes snore, not as much as people think they do and not all of them, but I also snore and I certainly don't think I can't breathe! We do NOT look for the flatest faces/muzzles in the ring. Pugs with any of the forementioned health problems on this thread must NOT be bred from. Pug Dog Encephalitis has to my knowledge been virtually eliminated from this country. 

I bought an 18 month old girl, from completely different lines to my own, had full and extensive checks and tests done on her at the time. All was ok. I mated her the other day and then had to take her into the vets for something completely unrelated, I then was shocked to find out she had developed something from that list, probably by damage rather than anything else as it is supposed to be there from birth. So without thinking I had a misalliance injection course done (next day after mating, not when pups were implanted or anything) because whether damage or not I will NOT breed a dog with a health problem. 

Also cesars are not that common in pugs. Mine self-whelp. As for reverse sneezing, mine did it once, when they had kennel cough, but then so did my cocker. If I honestly ever thought that any of my pugs had any problems being and acting like an everyday dog then I wouldn't breed them. They go on long walks and runs through the woodland, they play all day in the sun, they chase balls and frisbies and bring them back. I've even seen a pug agility team. 

When breeders put the very worst things that could happen in a pug, did you ever stop to wonder if it's not to put off people who see them as a fashion accessory or think breeding them will make them money? If someone enquires about breeding pugs I give them a worst case scenario they quite often then rethink. 

I'm not saying pugs don't have their problems, but the problems are not as common as people seem to think. I breed pugs because I find them hardy, fit, healthy and have the most wonderful temperaments. I like dogs you can play with, run with, give a good hug without worrying you'll break them and still have them sleep on your lap while you watch tv. 

Sorry if this post goes on a bit, just trying to answer all the questions I can remember from the thread.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Going slightly off topic here,
> I knew from my 18 week scan that my youngest was going to have problems,the main concern was his kidneys,one was dilated and polycystic,they were not sure about the other,should I have terminated ?
> 
> I didn't as I don't believe in abortion,he was born with kidney problems and a Cleft Palate,no history of either condition in our family.
> ...


sallayanne i'm very sorry,i never intended for my post to cause any offence.
what i ment was if we knew before we got pregnant..the whole point of my this thread was an innocent and honest question.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Bindura havent read all of your post just the first few lines - dont worry I think the aim of this thread was to antagonise, seems to be a rather spoilt view on the world.

James


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Bindura said:


> Ok, only just read this thread, so my reply is perhaps overdue and I may not answer all questions. I am a pug breeder.
> 
> We do NOT breed pugs so they can not breathe. If a pug should have any problems with breathing then they should NOT be bred from, end of story. Pugs do sometimes snore, not as much as people think they do and not all of them, but I also snore and I certainly don't think I can't breathe! We do NOT look for the flatest faces/muzzles in the ring. Pugs with any of the forementioned health problems on this thread must NOT be bred from. Pug Dog Encephalitis has to my knowledge been virtually eliminated from this country.
> 
> ...


Summed it all up nicely


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Janice how can you say this thread was a simple and honest question when your in an open mixed pet forum where people have the best intentions for their animals?
We all have views on the world that doesnt mean Im going to walk down the street with a sandwichboard proclaiming my right to non confrontational free speech?? 
Youve got some silly thoughts in your head - I dont know how anybody whould bring child birth into this dialogue. UN.TRUE.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

james1 said:


> Bindura havent read all of your post just the first few lines - dont worry I think the aim of this thread was to antagonise, seems to be a rather spoilt view on the world.
> 
> James


WHAT????? i have NEVER come onto this forum to cause upset or hurt to anyone..as i've said i asked a genuine question..i just hope that those that know me on here think better of me than that statement.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

james1 said:


> Janice199 - shame on you.
> Natik - give it up, breeds exist for pleasure and we try to make the most of it.
> 
> unbelievable


 thanks for u input... U must be bombed with good reputation after this! 

And bindura, thanks for joining and trying to explain 
what is the point of the really short muzzle in the pug?


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## Bindura (Sep 17, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> WHAT????? i have NEVER come onto this forum to cause upset or hurt to anyone..as i've said i asked a genuine question..i just hope that those that know me on here think better of me than that statement.


No one has upset or hurt me, I just thought I'd answer the questions posted on pugs as someone who knows pugs.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

lol, Bindura the way it was going - all Pugs shoud be shot by all counts lol.

hmmm
James


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## Bindura (Sep 17, 2008)

Natik said:


> And bindura, thanks for joining and trying to explain
> what is the point of the really short muzzle in the pug?


To be honest, I'm not entirely sure, contrary to the couple of paintings that most people have seen there are much older paintings that show them with muzzles much as they are now. Apparently the pugs now are supposed to be closer to the original 3000 year old pugs from china.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

james1 said:


> lol, Bindura the way it was going - all Pugs shoud be shot by all counts lol.
> 
> hmmm
> James


james please do not try and use my thread to start any nastyness..i'm not sure what youraim is but i for one wont rise to the bait..if you cant think of something nice to say then dont bother.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

james1 said:


> lol, Bindura the way it was going - all Pugs shoud be shot by all counts lol.
> 
> hmmm
> James


James you're taking this too far, Janice is the one that steps in and stops everyone judging people, so I don't think you should judge her just because she innocently asks a question.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Bindura said:


> To be honest, I'm not entirely sure, contrary to the couple of paintings that most people have seen there are much older paintings that show them with muzzles much as they are now. Apparently the pugs now are supposed to be closer to the original 3000 year old pugs from china.


I have seen a painting of a pug but don't remember from what year it was where the pug has a more normal looking muzzel... Why has breeders changed it that much risking the health problems already mentioned 
i will try to find this pic tomorrow as I'm not on my pc right now.

I have seriously nothing against pugs. I just care alot about ANY dogs health.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> I have seen a painting of a pug but don't remember from what year it was where the pug has a more normal looking muzzel... Why has breeders changed it that much risking the health problems already mentioned
> i will try to find this pic tomorrow as I'm not on my pc right now.
> 
> I have seriously nothing against pugs. I just care alot about ANY dogs health.


If you cared about any dogs health an NI was not a very good choice considering you have posted you knew about all the problems going on with them.
Janice your thread was hijacked and turned around
imo of course


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Nic b. Im afraid anyone that would compare not breeding a dog for its defects to not having a child if you knew it had complications - in an open forum, drastically goes down in my opinion.
I would quote it though it is completly single minded and therefore doesnt need to be entertained
James


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

james1 said:


> Im afraid anyone that would compare not breeding a dog for its defects to not having a child if you knew it had complications - in an open forum, drastically goes down in my opinion.
> 
> James


That was not nice, but saying that she did apologise unlike others who are still rabbiting on lol ( not you)


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> If you cared about any dogs health an NI was not a very good choice considering you have posted you knew about all the problems going on with them.
> Janice your thread was hijacked and turned around
> imo of course


Thats not a really nice thing to say as u don't know me at all.
This can apply to all dog owners then as health issues exsist in every breed.
Why do people have to start getting personal now suddenly?
I myself thought it was a good debate interesting to read other peoples views.


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## Bindura (Sep 17, 2008)

Natik said:


> I have seen a painting of a pug but don't remember from what year it was where the pug has a more normal looking muzzel... Why has breeders changed it that much risking the health problems already mentioned
> i will try to find this pic tomorrow as I'm not on my pc right now.
> 
> I have seriously nothing against pugs. I just care alot about ANY dogs health.












I think what throws people quite a lot is that without the over nose wrinkle pugs do have a longer looking muzzle. I can't say whether the over nose wrinkle came from china or not but that some older pictures don't have them. Also the ears were cropped, which thankfully they aren't now and can make a pugs face look very different without ears. If you go to:

www.babymoepse.de - mops infos und welpen - Pug Paintings and Art

there are a few old pug paintings, and Hogarth's painting is there, the one most people have seen, but his pug is different to all the other paintings, so do we know if he has a full pug or a cross breed pug at that time?

I also care a lot about dogs health but try not to judge any breed or crossbreed until I have lived with them and can say anything with experience.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

james1 said:


> Nic b. Im afraid anyone that would compare not breeding a dog for its defects to not having a child if you knew it had complications - in an open forum, drastically goes down in my opinion.
> I would quote it though it is completly single minded and therefore doesnt need to be entertained
> James


I think at some point everyone says something they regret and she did apologise, Jan is nice


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

This is a worthless reply - no offence nic b. But she replied because someone pulled her up on it. 
Im sure she is very nice - lol but im not going to make any jokes about meeting her in a dark alley. lol all

James

edit. And Clueless I realise what your saying about people Rabbiting on.

whooooooooof! lol


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> Thats not a really nice thing to say as u don't know me at all.
> This can apply to all dog owners then as health issues exsist in every breed.
> Why do people have to start getting personal now suddenly?
> I myself thought it was a good debate interesting to read other peoples views.


No I do not personally know you but you are the one who is going on about pugs continually on this thread re health issues etc. You still kept going on about why pug breeders have changed the face so much even when Bindura posted from a pug breeders point of view. Then summed it up by saying "I just care a lot about ANY dogs health"
So thats why I put it back to you not to get personal. There has been a lot of threads recently about Designer v Pedigree and from this thread a lot of Pedigree breeders just holding their own imo just the same way owners of designer or Crossbreeds do thats all


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Interesting bindura... Thanks again for trying to clear up things.


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## Bindura (Sep 17, 2008)

Natik said:


> Interesting bindura... Thanks again for trying to clear up things.


That's ok, just answered the questions asked. Didn't want to turn this into a huge debate or anything.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> No I do not personally know you but you are the one who is going on about pugs continually on this thread re health issues etc. You still kept going on about why pug breeders have changed the face so much even when Bindura posted from a pug breeders point of view. Then summed it up by saying "I just care a lot about ANY dogs health"
> So thats why I put it back to you not to get personal. There has been a lot of threads recently about Designer v Pedigree and from this thread a lot of Pedigree breeders just holding their own imo just the same way owners of designer or Crossbreeds do thats all


thats sad u think that way.
I didn't know that it would be wrong to ask bindura this question  I always believed a forum is meant to be there to talk about things.
(soon we will need polls what we are allowed to discuss and what not )

I only chose the pug to discuss as that was thq breed I looked into a bit, I didn't know either that I wasn't allowed to talks about a certain breed.

And I do care about any dogs health, and thats a fact. 
I'm just discussing this breed, what is so wrong with this?

And I'm sure bindura can speak for herself if she feels annoyed or whatsover by my question.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> thats sad u think that way.
> I didn't know that it would be wrong to ask bindura this question  I always believed a forum is meant to be there to talk about things.
> (soon we will need polls what we are allowed to discuss and what not )
> 
> ...


You never asked Bindura this question, although Bindura did come on and explain as pug breeder's point of view. 
I have never said you were not allowed to talk about a certain breed. What was annoying me was it was going on and on and I was not the one who got personal in the first place.
Never said it was false that you care about any dogs health
Anyway you have had your answer now so everything is okay


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> You never asked Bindura this question, although Bindura did come on and explain as pug breeder's point of view.
> I have never said you were not allowed to talk about a certain breed. What was annoying me was it was going on and on and I was not the one who got personal in the first place.
> Never said it was false that you care about any dogs health
> Anyway you have had your answer now so everything is okay


it doesn't matter for how long it goes on as noone is forced to read it.
And I didn't even know bindura was a pug breeder so we are lucky she came across and explained.
u said if I cared about any dogs health then ni wasn't a good choice considering me knowing about the problems... I'm sure other ni owners which researched this breed wouldnt be happy with this statement either.

Anyway, i myself learned a few new things about the pug and I guess thats a good thing


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Alls gud in da hood then lol (but I still dont have a clue what your going on about) could you remind me?? Joke Natik!!




James


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

nic b said:


> I think at some point everyone says something they regret and she did apologise, Jan is nice


thankyou nic b. and believe me i regret the fact that i didnt word what i was trying to say properly.



james1 said:


> This is a worthless reply - no offence nic b. But she replied because someone pulled her up on it.
> Im sure she is very nice - lol but im not going to make any jokes about meeting her in a dark alley. lol all
> 
> James
> ...


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> I understand what ur saying.
> But have u watched the dogs 24 hrs?
> Have u asked if they had any corrective operations in the past (as this is not unusuall in pugs)
> Have u watched them sleeping?
> ...


The last line of this post of yours Natik explains why I asked why did you buy a NI knowing of all the problems, it works both ways in my eyes Sorry!!!
And this quote

"Also because of their flat face they overheat too quick.
I dont understand why people risk all this by breeding pugs?"

I am not picking on NI owners whatsoever as every breed as stated has health issues.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> thankyou nic b. and believe me i regret the fact that i didnt word what i was trying to say properly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> The last line of this post of yours Natik explains why I asked why did you buy a NI knowing of all the problems, it works both ways in my eyes Sorry!!!
> And this quote
> 
> "Also because of their flat face they overheat too quick.
> ...


I take it u find its right to say what u said about the caring about any dog thing then? (if u could answer this please)

I seriously don't understand what I'm doing wrong here? Its a forum and I was curious and interested I never said pug shouldn't be bred I'm only asked WHY this way? I have got the statements about overheating from a breeders website so I guess I have the right to ask if I don't understand something?
do I not have the right to ask things on an open forum? 


Why did other members buy their dogs knowing of their problems too? I think this question silly as has nothing to do with what I was trying to find out. 
And if u was annoyed clueless, I don't get why u kept looking into this thread then.?

Its disapointing that people have to start explaining themself only because they are curious about something.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Bindura said:


> Ok, only just read this thread, so my reply is perhaps overdue and I may not answer all questions. I am a pug owner, breederand exhibitor.
> 
> We do NOT breed pugs so they can not breathe. If a pug should have any problems with breathing then they should NOT be bred from, end of story. Pugs do sometimes snore, not as much as people think they do and not all of them, but I also snore and I certainly don't think I can't breathe! We do NOT look for the flatest faces/muzzles in the ring. Pugs with any of the forementioned health problems on this thread must NOT be bred from. Pug Dog Encephalitis has to my knowledge been virtually eliminated from this country.
> 
> ...


HALLILUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Welcome to the thread


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

Jo P said:


> HALLILUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Welcome to the thread


ha ha I was thinking the same


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> I take it u find its right to say what u said about the caring about any dog thing then? (if u could answer this please)
> 
> I seriously don't understand what I'm doing wrong here? Its a forum and I was curious and interested I never said pug shouldn't be bred I'm only asked WHY this way? I have got the statements about overheating from a breeders website so I guess I have the right to ask if I don't understand something?
> do I not have the right to ask things on an open forum?
> ...


Maybe read back the pages and you will find some answers.
Yip it is a forum and I cannot remember saying you were doing anything wrong. I do get annoyed like every other human being but I am big an ugly enough to keep coming back. 
Anyway as I have sadi you got your answer eventually re Pugs


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> thankyou nic b. and believe me i regret the fact that i didnt word what i was trying to say properly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Natik said:


> I take it u find its right to say what u said about the caring about any dog thing then? (if u could answer this please)
> 
> I seriously don't understand what I'm doing wrong here? Its a forum and I was curious and interested I never said pug shouldn't be bred I'm only asked WHY this way? I have got the statements about overheating from a breeders website so I guess I have the right to ask if I don't understand something?
> do I not have the right to ask things on an open forum?
> ...


I think what isnt sinking in Natik is that people have given honest reply's and given you answers. You havent taken them onboard, and instead people are just repeating themselves and being berated by you..

You assumed all pugs choke though ill breeding - members have revealed that their dogs sometimes snort or making a choking sounds too.
You assumed that pugs are mostly born c-section - people have told you this is not true and given you examples.
You have given lists of conditions of the breed that are not inherent to it alone - that others have shown ar apparent in their dogs
And the way you put your argument across in earlier post - It came across that you thought people who own or breed them are wrong in doing because of your assumptions, that the breed should be stopped for the sake of the animal.

It seems that the debate (your words) is one sided and that anyone who disagrees with you will get further questions asked of them to justify their answer, when infact they are doing the best they can for the dog whatever.

You should realise that this type of thread, that questions breed justification, was always likely to cause dispute. Though you seems to persist with it. Somehow I expect further disputes to these observations.

James


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

Wow this thread was a *very tireing* read 

I just want to say that I thought Bindura's responses were excellent and all done in a very calm and dignified manner......... Not sure I could have reacted quite the same if Dalmatians had of been the breed of choice to bash 



clueless said:


> Reverse sneezing is not heridetary and can happen in any breed. 2 of my dogs do it


My boy does that, and has done since he was a small pup. Only very occassionally and at first it scared the crap out of us, but been told its nothing much to worry about unless it becomes a constant thing........... Oh and he has a long snout


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

I think there are too many bad things said in the press and by word of mouth and people just assume it's true and then tarr a whole breed with one brush.

Yes some breeds have more health problems than others but the decent breeders are doing their best to erradicate these problems.. and not every dog in that breed is going to have those problems.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

i'm not too proud to admit i should have worded my question better,ie.by not naming certain breeds..BUT i did say in my first post i was using these dogs as an example...i can only go by what i read about "certain" breeds..
i'm sure i'm not the only person that would have liked to get to the bottom of this....if anyone was REALLY interested in my qyestion then i believe this thread would have run its course...but i'm none the wiser and wish i had'nt started the thread........and i will add..I did not intend to aim this at any breed in particular,and if i've offended anyone, then i'm truely sorry...


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

I don't think anyone has been offended really, have they?

However, I do think you're question has been answered. The general consensus seems ot be that the breeds mentioned are usually healthy, and the breed standard does not suggest breeding breeds with flatter faces to the extreme.

it seems that people who don't have personal experience have formed opinions based on media hype and hearsay though.


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

Bindura has explained about the Pugs, she is a breeder. couple of pages back I think! lol


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jackson said:


> I don't think anyone has been offended really, have they?
> 
> However, I do think you're question has been answered. The general consensus seems ot be that the breeds mentioned are usually healthy, and the breed standard does not suggest breeding breeds with flatter faces to the extreme.
> 
> it seems that people who don't have personal experience have formed opinions based on media hype and hearsay though.


and yes i'm 100% guilty of that.at least i now think so...but when i read ( when searching the net) that certain breeds have problems,then i still dont understand why they are bred...i have taken onboard what has been said and i thank the people for their replies..but i personaly still feel some questions havent been answerd to put my mind at ease...
but perhaps its now time to put this to rest....


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

LOL yeh it's going on..

But I think as much as you read on the net there is healthy dogs within every breed.. and unhealthy ones too..


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

bee112 said:


> LOL yeh it's going on..
> 
> But I think as much as you read on the net there is healthy dogs within every breed.. and unhealthy ones too..


That is so very true and the only way to ensure getting what will hopefully be a healthy pup is to have one from health tested parents, which is what GOOD breeders do, at the end of the day they hope that people will come back for another dog at some time, we have friends (now) that have had 7 in total off us and a few that are already booked for when we have our next litter and these are scattered between their family. Bad breeders are never returned to and if people would only learn about the health testing, these bad breeders would gradually disappear as they would never have any sales


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

bee112 said:


> LOL yeh it's going on..
> 
> But I think as much as you read on the net there is healthy dogs within every breed.. and unhealthy ones too..


ok, so now say i want to know what health problems a "certain" breed of dog has.where do i go for that? just ask on here? that would be bias would'nt it?
so my point is this, if people want to educate others LIKE MYSELF where do we go? i thought on the net.but it seems i'm wrong


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> ok, so now say i want to know what health problems a "certain" breed of dog has.where do i go for that? just ask on here? that would be bias would'nt it?
> so my point is this, if people want to educate others LIKE MYSELF where do we go? i thought on the net.but it seems i'm wrong


Maybe go to the particular breed club, they would make you aware of any issues the breed maybe pre disposed to, then when you locate a breeder ask for proof the tests for the illneses have been done and come back negative.

I suppose it just takes hell of alot of research on that breed and breeders as there are many bad ones out there with no regard for the dogs health.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> ok, so now say i want to know what health problems a "certain" breed of dog has.where do i go for that? just ask on here? that would be bias would'nt it?
> so my point is this, if people want to educate others LIKE MYSELF where do we go? i thought on the net.but it seems i'm wrong


Why on earth do you think it would be bias?

For example. I breed Goldens. A breed which should be tested at least for hips and eyes, and more commonly these days elbows are tested too. They are also a breed supposedly prone to skin problems and cancer is thought to be more common than it is some breeds. I explain this to people who make puppy enquiries to me, even if I have no pups available and am not planning a litter for some time.

That said, I personally know no Goldens with hip or elbow displaycia, or eye problems, and I do know quite a few. I wouldn't breed from a dog that had skin or any other problems, and also not if there seemed an above average instance of cancer in the line, just in case!

My dogs are in exceptionally good health as are all related dogs I know personally. I can only go by my own experience, as can everyone else.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2008)

jackson said:


> Why on earth do you think it would be bias?
> 
> For example. I breed Goldens. A breed which should be tested at least for hips and eyes, and more commonly these days elbows are tested too. They are also a breed supposedly prone to skin problems and cancer is thought to be more common than it is some breeds. I explain this to people who make puppy enquiries to me, even if I have no pups available and am not planning a litter for some time.
> 
> ...


Good Post,
A good breeder will tell you of health issues within the breed.
I always tell people what condition are found in the SBT,I was also going to suggest the breed clubs.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

JANICE199 said:


> ok, so now say i want to know what health problems a "certain" breed of dog has.where do i go for that? just ask on here? that would be bias would'nt it?
> so my point is this, if people want to educate others LIKE MYSELF where do we go? i thought on the net.but it seems i'm wrong


of course you can ask on here infact there is a thread with some of the health testing requirements of different breeds on it and if I ever get the chance i will do some research and add to it


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ok....i've no more to say on this.so IF the thread can be closed i'd be pleased


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