# New here - Let me tell you my 1001 dog problems...Can you relate?!



## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Hi everyone new here, posted up a brief bit of information about me and my dogs on the 'Introductions' thread but thought I would go into to detail about me, my dogs and our problems, I really hope with everyone's combined experience, knowledge and general support you can maybe give me some advice and a well needed shoulder to cry on! 

...get a cup of tea ready, its going to be a long post...(I'll try to be brief but detailed)

I'm 23 years old and I own 2 long legged Jack Russells. 

Dottie - Dottie is 22 months old, spayed last year and has dominance aggression, but shes also insecure at the same time. My sister bought her over a year and a half ago, because she wanted a dog, she didnt look into the breed of the dog, etc etc (all the classic mistakes) and sent me out to buy Dottie, a 4 month old JR bitch.

At the time I was living in Glocuester (I'm from Bath) and didnt really have much to do with Dottie, infact I resented her at first because I didnt think it was fair on our cat to have a dog in the house (I always used to prefer cats over dogs) anyway, as my course in Gloucester starts to finish, I spent more and more time at home when I wasnt studying. It was when Dottie was about 6 months that I started taking an interest in her. I started walking her (as my sister never walked her, didnt train her, nothing!) and our bond got close, I even took her to dog training class. I cant remember the exact time we started our close bond, but boy did we bond! When I was home I would walk her, train her, buy her nice dog food, beds, training gear , treats, you name it I bought it!

Then last summer it became apparent she had aggression problems, at first it was a little thing here a snap there. I called out a behaviourist who told me she wasnt aggressive, she just liked to play rough, so I was relieved but then my friend who owns an aggressive rescue dog told me, she was aggressive and I spent the whole summer in two minds, one convincing myself she is fine, the other knowing there was a problem. 

Dottie will bark at people walking past the house, joggers in the park, kids on bikes, pushchairs, scooters, people just walking through the field that seem to "appear from no where", she doesnt like little kids near her, she doesnt like strangers touching her. Shes half Miss Dominant and half Little Miss Scared and Unsure which makes me sad. 

If I have a ball out and me and Dottie are playing fetch, she goes into 'Ball Mode' (I'm sure most of you know it!) and she will focus on NOTHING but the ball, even if 100 kids on bikes rode past, she wouldnt care, so I do use this to my advantage. She also chases shadows and reflections. 

She has also been for me and my family members a couple of times, say if she jumps up in the warm patch on our seats and we try and move her, she growls then snaps at us, so I have bought them a new (super comfy!) bed for the front room so theres no reason for them to be on the settees with us, claiming our space and climbing and sleeping all over us like we're bits of furniture.

I know most people will say be the Pack Leader! Well I'll get to that after, a quick briefing on Charlie...

Anyway, last year I went and bought another JR dog, Charlie. I know what you're all thinking, I know, but I wanted Dottie to have another dog to play with and socialize with etc .Everytime we took her down the park prior to having Charlie, she'd go nuts if she saw another dog. Well she took to Charlie really, really well *touchwood* they've only had 3 fights in the past 8 months since we've had him, 2 were in the first week of them getting to know each other. They play like nutters together, Dottie sounds like an actual demon when shes playing and Charlie squeals like a baby and a squeaky door rolled into one. 

So I get Charlie and I thought he played well with all dogs, it was a relief to feel like I had a "normal" dog for once. Sounds horrid, but I'm being 100% honest with you all. But then Charlie started fights with other male dogs, espcially when bitches were around, even if they were friendly boy dogs, he curls his lip and attacks. He stopped humping all dogs in sight after being neutured, but there is still the issue with other males. He also gets aggressive when other dogs are around and say a treat falls on the floor, he'll be the first to attack over it, again not all dogs, but some. Him and Dottie can eat from the same bowl and I can stick my hand in his food bowl and he wouldnt give a damn. 

You wouldnt believe this little dog could be such a bugger. He is generally okay with people, he has started to bark at people on our walks though, but because he is so small and has such a sweet little face people tend to dismiss it, but I take it seriously none the less. 

Charlie tends to follow suite so when Dottie barks or attack, he will join in too. But on his own, if someone walks past the house or comes in, hes happy and excited but if Dotties around he will go mental with her too and sometimes they snap at each other in all the hyped up emotion. He howls like a good'un if me AND Dottie go out without him and works himself up into a right state, he wont stop until one or both of us return. 

There also seems to be some sort of dominance battle between the two of them, Dottie will hump Charlie and vice-versa, sometimes Charlie bosses Dottie about and sometimes its the other way round so I dont know who is higher than who between the 2 of them.

Charlie is great around kids and I even take him to work with me in the care home for the elderly, and they grab his ears, shout at him, pull his tail, you name it, they do it and he doesnt bat an eyelid. He just sits in their laps until theyve had enough. 

I have bought endless (and I do mean endless) amounts of books, training DVDs, equipment, dog trainers in order to try and bring all these problems under control. I must have spent thousands on these dogs, so much so, its not even funny. Not to mention the endless hours watching Its Me or The Dog on TV, on-line.

My situation at the moment is, I have to walk both my dogs seperatly, muzzled and on a long training line. I used to walk them both together for an hour, but now I do a high energy walk with them both in 30/40 mins each. (Fetch, chase a toy etc) so the excess energy is getting burnt up and I mix training in with it aswell. 

They are both SUPER intelligent and I know they can be two of the most well behaved dogs in the park, when we're good, we're the best, its just all this aggression spoiling everything. I really, REALLY do envy the people who say "Oh my dogs a nightmare, she wants to play with all the dogs insight and she just loves people" I WISH my dogs had that problem, if that was the worst of my worries, I'd be laughing myself to sleep. I dont want my 2 to give JRs a bad name, like they normally get 

They eat good food Royal Canin, JWB with Wainwrights meat mixed in. I have done clicker training with them, all went well until another dog came along and Dottie would go mental, on the end of her flexi-lead with a halti on, trying to attack the other dog, treats, clicker, lead it went flying everywhere. I've stopped using treats for training. Charlie is SO food orientated that he will jump in a fire for a crumb and not listen to ANYTHING just focus on food and as soon as Dottie ate the treat, she'd go back to raring up again

I am currently training them with Don Sullivans system, some of you may have heard of him. I have a command collar on both of them, a step down from a prong collar, I know you'll all be shouting at the screen disgusted with me, but before you judge me, please understand,I used to be a firm believe in Pos-R and totally dismiss any other kind of training, but after not being successful with that I am now trying what I didnt believe in, Neg-R. I do EVERYTHING for these dogs *trying not to well up lol* they sleep in lovely beds, they eat well, even after a 12 hour shift if they havent been walked by another member of my family, I get straight out there and ensure they both get a good run. I love these dogs SO much, no matter how much stress or embarrassment they may cause me, they are my life. You may think I'm wicked and cruel for using these collars on them, but I am not. I would cut my arms off for these dogs, all I want is to be able to walk them together again, without having to worry about them getting into fights or being attacked or even killed by dogs bigger and stronger than them. If being pinched round the neck for a few months means years of us having, long peaceful, happy walks again, I'll do whatever it takes.


Mentally and physically I reached my breaking point last week. Charlie got into a fight with another dog who was friendly, everyone was like "Oh god what a horrible dog" I made my apologies, genuine ones aswell and just came home and cried myself silly. The stress was to the point when I was at work, I was worrying about the dog walk at work, wake up so stressed about it, go to sleep so stressed about it. My body was going to collapse literally, the stress from working in a care home on top and I was due a breakdown (this not being the first). 

My mind literally just turned off the stress switch and I woke up the next day extremely calm and collected and have been like that since, it must be something our bodies do to stop us from breaking down seriously. I am trying to be a good, firm, fair leader to my dogs, which I think I am. I am a very self-concious, passive-aggressive, submissive type who doesnt have much self confidence. If I was a dog, I'd be the first dog in the park to roll over and lie there. But I am very slowly but surely building myself up to be strong for my dogs and give them the life we both deserve.

My family do try and help out, but they dont always listen to the rules I set and break them which makes me so mad, but they get sick of hearing about it. I dont think they realise the importance of them because Im the only person who walks them, although everyone in the house loves them. I ensure they have deccent food, toys, walks the lot.

I dream, I visualise it in my head, of having my 2 dogs well behaved, running off lead round the park, unmuzzled, being good and getting on with dogs. I used to wake up early and LOVE walking my dogs, now I'm very on edge and its more like a military drill than a pleasure. Once the the second dog is walked and back through the back gate, I breathe a sigh of relief and if they havent got in a fight, its a bonus.


Is anyone going through anything similar? Or can anyone offer advice or words of comfort? 
I dont know whether Im coming or going!

Thank you all so much for your time and reading my post,

have a great day,

Candice x


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Hi Candice and welcome to the forum.

First off, don't worry!! Plenty of dogs have issues like those you describe, and they are treatable. There are plenty of people on here with expereince who can give you excellent advice, but looks like I may be the first to get the ball rolling.

Firstly - forget everything you have ever heard about "dominance". You won't find many folks here telling you to "be the pack leader" because there is no such thing.

The old dominance theory was discredited decades ago - contrary to popular belief dogs do not live in strict linear hierarchies led by an alpha, nor do they compete for rank in the way that certain celebs suggest. If you want your dogs' behaviour to imrpove you will need to get a better understanding of what they are doing, why they are doing it, and how you can change their motivation so they no longer need to do it. This isn't possible if you get too hung up on the idea that it all comes down to dominance.

In my opinion, Dottie sounds very insecure and unsure, so I would suggest trying some calmatives. For example, DAP (spray or diffuser), rescue remedy in her water, that sort of thing. Calmatives are not miracle cures, but they may help her to relax enough in order to start learning new things.

For the snapping you mention, when she gets into your seat: Stop trying to physically move her. I would suggest teaching the cues "up" and "off". Teach them using treats like you would any other behaviour, and practice lots. That way, if you need her off the sofa you can simply give the "off" cue. An alternative is to use a tag line. This is basically a short lead without a handle that you attach to the dog in the house that she just drags around (don't leave it on her unsupervised!). If she is wearing a tag line, you can use this to get her off the sofa when necessary with no fuss and no risk.

I think both dogs need some "systematic desensitisation" to other dogs, strangers etc. To explain briefly, at the moment they find other dogs / people etc a threat and react aggressively to keep them away. When the threat gets too close they have no option to attack. What needs to happen is for the dogs to become desensitised to the things they find threatening, by using plenty of rewards for good behaviour and always keeping the dog under threshold. 
I won't go into too much detail here because I do not think you should attempt this on your own - you need the help of a professional. I would strongly suggest finding a qualified, reputable behaviourist who can give you specific, tailor made advice and show you exactly what you need to be doing. I would highly recommend either a COAPE or APBC behaviourist. 
Please avoid anyone using marketting terms like "whisperer" or "listener" (these tend to be unqualified people jumping on a bandwagon!) and anyone who preaches dominance theory or harsh methods.

Last but not least, please scrap the collars. In all honestly, apart from being cruel, they are probably making things far worse.

Look at it this way:
The dog is wary of strangers / other dogs. Possibly due to a lack of socialisation as a pup.
He wants the scary dog / person to keep away, so he warns them off with a display (eg barking, lunging, growling).
When this doesn't work, he can't flee because he is on a lead - he has to fight. In his eyes, maybe for his life.

You add the collar in the hope it will punish the unwanted behaviours. So what happens now?

Dog sees scary dog / stranger. He tells them clearly not to approach, and suddenly he gets this nasty constricting sensation and sharp spikes digging into his neck. 

What is he going to think? Dogs learn by association - as far as your dog is concerned, that stranger / other dog CAUSED the pain and distress! In other words, you have just proved him right - he really does have a good reason to be afraid of them. 

The result is that he will try even harder to keep them away, because he believes they cause bad things to happen. So he displays aggression, gets a collar correction, and the vicious cycle continues.

Please, please switch back either to a normal flat collar, or a body harness. Using pain inducing / constricting collars in cases like this often leads to an increase in aggression and will almost certainly set you back.

Hope that was of some help - but seriously, a proper behaviourist is your best bet by far. 

Good luck!!


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Hey Colette,

Thank you so much for your reply. 

I really am struggling atm, I shall revert back to my old training ways, I am struggling to keep Dotties attention when other dogs are about, she pulls like mad and rares up.What is the best way to deal with this? And how can I get Charlie to not attack other dogs at random? Its like he scoffs the food then goes back to fighting or gets food aggressive if the other dog comes near the treat. 

Im not trying to make excuses to not do it but I never know if Im coming or going. What would you suggest I do about Dotties insecurites? How can I build her up?

Thank you so much for replying

xxx


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

As I said before, your best bet is to get help from a professional. Howver, in the meantime...

1) Try to keep the dogs under threshold
2) Teach a solid "watch me"

Now for the exaplanation.... To save time I'm only going to refer to Charlie and his issue with other dogs, but exactly the same theory applies to Dottie with her issues with strange people and things like scooters / buggies etc.

All dogs have a reactivity "threshold", i.e. a distance at which they will start to react. The first thing you need to do is to work out is what the distance is.

For example, he might ignore a dog that was 30 feet away, but act agressively to one only 20 feet away. In this case you would know that 30 feet is below threshold for him. Make sense?

Whilst you are working on this issue you need to do everything in your power to prevent him going over this threshold - this takes management. It might mean walking him at a quieter time, or in a quieter location, or perhaps a very open location like a field where you can see other dogs in the distance and keep far enough away from them.

Part 2 is to teach the cue "watch me". Do you use a clicker to train? If not it might be something worth looking into - they can make life much easier as they give you more accurate timing and are not affected by your mood (unlike your voice).

To teach this, basically its a case of click and treat when the dog looks at you. When he gets the idea you start adding the cue "watch me". When he will reliably respond to the cue by looking at you, gradually build this up from a glance to holding eye contact for a second. So instead of immediately rewarding when he looks, pause for one second, then reward. Gradually increase the length of time he has to focus on you to get the reward.

Obviously, as with any new cue, ts best to teach this initially at home away from distraction before taking it on the road. Make sure he can do it in various rooms in the house, in the garden etc to ensure he has started to generalise the cue befor trying it on a walk. When you do try it out, again, make sure intiailly its in a low distraction environment - don't try it the first time when he's already lunging at another dog!

Now, putting the two together....

Once you have a solid "watch me" you can start the desensitisation and counter conditioning process.
Go for a walk in a quiet location as discussed above, where you can control the distance between Charlie and any other dogs. 
When Charlie sees another dog, immediately give the cue "watch me" and reward him handsomely for doing so.

Important = Charlie MUST be under threshold at this point. You want to reward good behaviour (not reacting) not bad behaviour (reacting). If Charlie reacts to the other dog he is too close (over threshold) and is unlikely to respond to the cue, there is also the risk of rewarding the wrong behaviour!

Basically you want Charlie to think that dogs in the distance result in good things happening.

Once this has been repeated a few times you should start to notice that Charlie will automatically look at you when he sees another dog in the distance, expecting his reward. This is a good sign - it means he is starting to associate other dogs with good things, and the distance at which he will react will reduce slightly.

In the early stages, you want to ensure the other dog is plenty far enough away, and that Charlie remains well under threshold. (I can't stress that enough).

Once he gets to the stage where seeing another dog causes him to watch you automatically, you can start to reduce the distance.

Important - this is a very slow, very gradual process! Do NOT attempt to reduce the distance too much or too quickly, as putting Charlie over threshold will undo all your good work so far. For example, if he's had a couple of days of success with dogs at 50-60 feet, aim for 45-55 feet for the next couple of days.

Obviously, this process is not always easy when you don't know where the next dog may appear. Do you know any friends with well behaved dogs (who will NOT react to Charlie at all) who could help you? That way you could get them to cooperate - being very careful and specific in your distance reduction, with lower risks.

The same principle can be applied to Dotty. When she sees a stranger but does not react, reward. Same with anything else that sometimes sets her off.
With objects like bikes, prams, etc could you possibly borrow some?

For example, get a pram and leave it standing still (no one pushing it) and reward Dotty for being in the same area. Walk her past it at a distance and reward if she ignores it. Reduce the distance so you walk her right by it (as if on the same side of the street). Then have someone (that she doesn't react to!) hold onto the handle and move it just slightly - and reward her for ignoring it. Then have them push it forward slowly, just a step, and reward.

The "watch me" cue can also be used for Dotty in the same way - if you see something she may react to, give the cue and reward for that. It not only gives her an alternative behaviour to focus on (she can't do both at once) but also helps cement the idea that those scary things actually cause good things to happen.

Again, its all about taking things slowly, starting with things that the dog is not anxious about (or at least less so) and gradually building on this.

Just picked up on this:


> Its like he scoffs the food then goes back to fighting or gets food aggressive if the other dog comes near the treat.


It sounds like you may be given much bigger treats than necessary! You want to use tiny pieces, but something high value that the dog loves, eg pea size cubes of hot dog sausage. If he can get aggressive to other dogs getting near his treat then the treat is too big - one tiny morsel only!

The second thing here is that at this point he is well over threshold and already reacting, so using treats at this stage is pretty useless.

And thirdly, this is where the "watch me" comes into its own. Simply giving the dog a treat will distract him for a mere moment. As you build up the "watch me" you can get him to focus on you for a much longer period, in order to earn that treat.

Hope that made sense!

Edited to add:
As both dogs are reactive when out, try getting a DAP spray and spraying their collars / leads before going out. It might help take the edge off.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you so much Colette for your reply. That makes a lot of sense. I really like the idea of going back to treat training! What lead/collar should I use for this? Harness or not? This is going to sound really stupid but at the end of all this training and my dogs can one day be let off the leads, will they really be ok with other dogs? What happens when I have no treats? 

I know each dog is different and this is another daft question, but how long is it before you see slight results? 

I do apologize, I will reply back in more detail tomorrow, Im very tireed and not fully alert atm.

Thank you so much again xx


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

To be honest, you could probably just stick with a normal flat collar and normal walking lead, although a training lead (longer) might be beneficial.

IF you can keep them under threshold, you shouldn't need anything else. If there is a high chance the dogs will go over threshold on a regular basis, you might benefit from either a front clip haarness, or a headcollar. However, I'd rather not try to advise about that, as headcollars in particular can be tricky to fit, take an effort to get the dog used to them, and can be harmful if used incorrectly. They are really a tool that you need to be shown how to put on and use.
If you did want to try a harness something like this
Welcome to the Dog-Games Shop
Balance Dog Harness - stop your dog pulling on the lead - 30 day money back guarantee.



> What happens when I have no treats?


You've just stumbled on the number one mistake / misconception about this type of training. 

You don't use treats forever, nor do use the treats as a bribe. I'll try to explain...

1) When you teach "watch me" you do not wave the treat around. Keep it out of sight (eg in your pocket). You are not trying to bribe the dog, nor are you luring. The treat always appears AFTER the dog has started to watch you.

2) When you first start teaching "watch me" you are only after a glance at you. Thus, as soon as the dog looks at you, click and treat

3) Once the dog understands what the cue means, you build up the duration. So he looks at you, pause, then click and treat (while he is still looking at you!) You gradually build up until he can watch you for a reasonable length of time - say up to a minute even!

4) By doing this, you effectively start using the treats on a non-constant reward schedule. In other words you don't reward every time. As you are trying to build duration, you would only reward longer watches, not very brief ones.

5) When the dog is capable of maintaining the watch me for your desired duration, you start doing it around distractions, mild at first. Again, as you try to improve the behaviour (whether in terms of accuracy, duration, around distractions etc) you are reinforcing intermittently.

6) Once the watch me is as good as you want, you simply reduce the reinforcements. So you go down to maybe 1 in 3 watch me's being treated. (You can still reward the others with petting and praise, but save the click and treat for 1 in 3). Don't be too specific or he may learn a pattern.

Intermittent rewards are actually far more effective than constant ones. Look at it like this - gambling is hugely addictive, and thousands of people play the Lottery week after week, even though they rarely win. But if your boss stopped paying you, you'd give up working pretty quick!

Once the cue is learned, you do not need to have treats with you - partly because you don't have to reward every time, and partly because it shouldn't matter - the dog shouldn't know you don't have treats on you today!

As for if they will eventually be ok with other dogs, and how long it will take to see results... I really can't give you an answer there, as it depends on so many things....

Getting it right, keeping the dogs below threshold, using high value rewards, etc will go a long way. Any bad experiences (e.g. being yelled at or getting a collar correction around other dogs) will set you back. Equally, going over threshold and giving them the chance to practice the unwanted behaviour will set you back too, because it becomes even more ingrained.

The important thing is not to expect too much, too soon. Rushing ahead is the one of the biggest causes of this not working.

You may never end have social butterflies that want to play with every dog they meet, but you could expect to end up with dogs that will enjoy their walks without bothering about other dogs, either ignoring them or giving them only a cursory glance / sniff before moving on.

Good luck.


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## rottiemum (Apr 12, 2011)

Just want to agree with everything Colette has said! Very good and thorough advice! We use the 'watch me' with our rottie - we had an APBC behaviourist out for her and he taught us this - we use the word 'look'; and hot dogs! 
Also, we use a Halti on her, which is just a nose harness, and it gives greater control. She would pull fiercely with a body harness or just a regular collar on but the nose harness helps alot. Oh, and it hooks on to her regular collar, for if she would happen to get out of it, you still have her by the lead! It controls her head and doesn't hurt her at all. Worth checking out. 
And Good luck!


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you very much Colette for your fantastic advice, I shall be noting all this down and working with these techniques with my dogs. Im off to London tomorrow for the weekend but as soon as I'm back Monday we shall start a new regime. 

Thank you Rottiemum too! I'm glad its working for you and your Rottie! My little Charlie is food mental so I imagine clicker training him with food shouldn't be too tricky. I look forward to taking positive steps. Ill invest in a halti and training lines. 

Thank you both greatly for your helpful replies and kind words. As soon as I start on Monday Ill keep an online diary and keep you posted,


Candice xxx


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I've stopped using treats for training.


Excellent, they are a main contributer (of others) to exacerbate, if not cause, the problems you describe, but, with your dogs only one element of the way forward.



> I have a command collar on both of them


Do mean an e-collar? If so I use an e-collar in my OB training so do quite a few others who are on here but they dont post much.



> I know you'll all be shouting at the screen disgusted with me


Some might, especially if they have a conflict of commercial interests with e-collars, IF you mean an e-collar, but ignore any of that if anyone does, they have no idea what e-collars so they make things up, harry potter type writings.

The way you wrote that though sounds like you may not be using them properly for for this sort of problem, the way your wrote sounds like to may be using them as a +P, if so thats not the way you use a collar for this problem, you carry out a desentisation programm over a period of time using -R.



> but after not being successful with that I am now trying what I didnt believe in, Neg-R.


Didn't believe in??? but the negative reinforcer is a reinforcer! ( Note: reward & reinforcer mean the same thing). There are 2 reinforcers positive & negative, positive when the animal perceives something is added/presented & negative when something is removed. Both reinforcers always strengthen a behaviour.

Just to add. All learned favourable behaviours of land mammals are based in the negative reinforcer, right from the earliest period in life, eg a human baby cries on its very first expereince of hunger discomfort, the mothers geneticaly predisposed 
response is to offer it food, the food removes the hunger & reinforces the babys crying response to avoid hunger, as the baby gets older it learns other communication skills to inform its mother it's hungry, they all = avoidence behaviour. When baby is old enough to feed itself it simply gets itself food (supermarket shoping is avoidance behaviour) to avoid hunger, all learned via the negative reinforcer & to the survival & benefit of the person.

In the case of a dog, the dog cust its paw/hurts its leg a little, its genes pass a message to the C-fibres instructing them to cause lasting/lingering pain if the dog puts all its weight on that foot/leg. The C-fiber transmission makes the dog (or human) limp, the limp removes significant discomfort, the dangers of adding further damage to the leg & allows the animal to still function at a reduced level within its environment. All those benefical behaviours are the reult of the negative reinforcer.

Why would you not use the most abundant learning reinforcer of all animals, in fact, if it were not for the learning properties of the negative reinforcer we would not survive at all?

.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

]


> I know most people will say be the Pack Leader! Well I'll get to that after, a quick briefing on Charlie...


Yes, if the dog(s) perceive you as lower ranking they will ignore you if & wehn they feel like it. Ignoring is a common behavioural characteristic of dominance.

The sole purpose of a species is the survival of the species, lower order, weaker, less fit 'in many ways', pack members are the least likely to carry the genes which heighten the probability of ensuring the survival of the pack by reproducing offspring capable of leading a pack to success in hunting & tedrritorial defence where offspring can be reared in safety etc, etcs. In certain situations, only the fittest will survive.

The largest modern study ever done on territorial aggression, which overlaps with dominance aggression, is the Cordoba university study 2009. They were studying 'significant' factors causeing territorial aggression.

Anyway, the link to the study & findings is below & for once it's simple to read & easy to understand, 711 dogs accross 5 Spanish cities were involved in order to consolidate the findings as applicapable to the normal dog population, (as opposed selecting tiny numbers of dogs, with specific characterists, confined in lab conditions so a predictable, pre-planed result emerges due to the design).

Lack of leadership & lack of OB (obedience) training, leading to the dogs were 2 of the main causes (as if we did not know that anyway).

Two relevant links below the first is the result of effective OB training in an aggression situation & the results of the OB training (the dog recalls during an attempted retaliatory attack, with detailed stills). The second is the Cordoba study.

Video-recall from aggressive incident
YouTube - ‪E-Collar Trained Dog, Recall From Aggressive Incident, Ends With Still Sequence‬‏

Cordoba University, Territorial Aggression in Dogs.
Factors Linked to Territorial Aggression in Dogs

Anyway Im off out with dog, thanks for waking my mind up a bit, lol

.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> Thank you very much Colette for your fantastic advice, I shall be noting all this down and working with these techniques with my dogs. Im off to London tomorrow for the weekend but as soon as I'm back Monday we shall start a new regime.
> 
> Thank you Rottiemum too! I'm glad its working for you and your Rottie! My little Charlie is food mental so I imagine clicker training him with food shouldn't be too tricky. I look forward to taking positive steps. Ill invest in a halti and training lines.
> 
> ...


All I have to say is that I agree with every word Collette has said. Your Dottie is afraid and insecure around the other dogs, probably because during her vital months for socialisation, your sister didn't bother. Now she has a friend, she is still going feel threatened by dogs she doesn't know.

The qualified experts on this forum, of which there are many, will never tell you to be a dog's pack leader. That is outdated and discredited and dogs do not live in packs anyway.

I don't know who Don Sullivan is, but I don't like the sound of him much. Any instructment, collar or whatever that punishes is only going to exacerbate the situation.

Good luck with your dogs.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SleepyBones said:


> Video-recall from aggressive incident
> YouTube - ‪E-Collar Trained Dog, Recall From Aggressive Incident, Ends With Still Sequence‬‏
> 
> .


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not the dodgy ecollar trainer again!:yikes::yikes:.............aggressive incident:lol:


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I know most people will say be the Pack Leader! Well I'll get to that after


I forgot

John Rogerson the founder of APBC & John Fisher, founder of APDT both contributed to & founded the theory of dog dominance here in UK, it was them who used & taught pet dog owners the word Alpha dogs. Those organisations & founders are where 'dog dominance' theory for pet owners come from.

You can get John Rogersons APBC (Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors) 
book on amazon The Dominant Dog he also made a video of the same name.]

The Dominant Dog  John Rogerson
Amazon.com: The Dominant Dog: John Rogerson: Video

John Fisher practice style site.
John Fisher, founder APDT, was working particularly with the so called Dominance Reduction Program (Dominance Reduction Programs) for dogs, and if you are not interested in dogs or dont like them much, I would suggest you still listen carefully because this is centrally important and the key points are beautifully portrayed in the problems of dog owners and the Dominance Reduction Program or DRP for short

Dominance Reduction, Wolf Pack, Dominance & Harmony Program Part 1
.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Note: reward & reinforcer mean the same thing). There are 2 reinforcers positive & negative, positive when the animal perceives something is added/presented & negative when something is removed. Both reinforcers always strengthen a behaviour.
> 
> Just to add. All learned favourable behaviours of land mammals are based in the negative reinforcer, right from the earliest period in life


This poster is writing misleading explanations again. There's so much plain wrong in his posts in this thread, to avoid his confusion it is best to use the ignore list feature of the forum.

Reward & reinforcer are not the same. Pinching an ear for example, is a *negative-reinforcer* the dog would learn because you stop doing it, when it does something you want. Similar to passing electricity, or using the fear of electrical current aka "stimulation" through the dog.

There is a moral choice here, those who choose the *"dark side"* that goes with *negative-reinforcement* and *positive-punishment* are coercing the dogs, rather than bonding with them and having them happy and eager to train. Additionally not using the methods advocated may avoid a gaol sentence or heavy fine if you are caught in some juristictions.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> There is a moral choice here, those who choose the "dark side" that goes with


B F Skinners theory of learning >whose terminology you claim to use< is a theory of how animals learn & recognised by many. It is nothing to do with moral theory, jehovas witness lectures, dark side (whatever that means),

If you dont accept Skinner then you eliminate yourself from using his technical terminology, which your always doing but always with the incorrect interpretation of it. YOU use a negative punishment base -P, stated on what you write, then you even deny using it.

Quote 3) B F Skinner  Negative reinforcement is not punishment. Reinforcers always strengthen behavior; that is what "reinforced" means. 3) B F Skinner says - Punishment is used to suppress behavior. It consists of
removing a positive reinforcer or presenting a negative one



> This poster is writing misleading explanations again. There's so much plain wrong in his posts in this thread, to avoid his confusion it is best to use the ignore list feature of the forum.
> 
> Reward & reinforcer are not the same.


Note; This poster (me) always uses ONLY the correct B F Skinner operant terms & theory, it is B F Skinners theory and no one elses.

Skinner first itemised the (1) operants in his book The Behaviour of Organisms 1938, in that book he coined reinforcer but also used reward to mean the same, i.e. strengthen any behaviour, this is a quote from (2) B F Skinner talking about reinforcing babies - B. F. Skinner _such reward as food. Almost any "feedback" from the environment is reinforcing if it is not too intense_. This is 3) another quote from B F Skinner, this time he used reinforcer instead of reward _"People have been made hungry so that they will work for food and so that they can be reinforced with food"_ 
Refs
1) B F Skinner The Behaviour Of Organisms 1938.
2). B F Skinner, How To Teach Animals 1951.
3)	B F Skinner About Behaviourism 1971

*Now - Where are your own refs, ahh you got non? well aint that no surprise*


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

And here we go again, same old, same old:nonod:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

My goodness! Even threads from people genuinely asking for help with training are being hijacked to further the electric shock collar trainers cause!:rolleyes5:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Pup cakes.. You have been given some great advice from the members of the forum.. But my personal opinion is that an e collar is not the way forward.. 
I would do my upmost to avoid the thought of using one of these.. Many do not believe you are training with them.. But you actually produce a new fear.. Why would any dog be happy to sit in a collar that is going to give it an electric shock.. Especially seen as dogs are not human and we can not tell them.. Im going to shock you if you don't do as I say when i say..

Spleepy has stated that many on this forum use these collars.. i believe this to be misleading information as these collars are banned in Wales, therefore many people on this forum would not use them due to the thoughts that they are barbaric and cruel..

Like I say .. You have been given some great advice.. Best of luck.. I have a young horror bag at the min..  All fun and games and thats how you need to keep any training you do.. Exciting..  This way you will gain your dogs full trust and your dog will be more interested in you than any one else..  
Best of luck..


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I see the shock`em, yank `em, scare `em brigade have already advised you to terrify your little dog but I`m assuming you`re a nice person who loves her dog and wouldn`t listen to sadists and salesmen? 
Can I recommend you read a proper behaviourists` book - 
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. 
It will tell you how to retrain your dog without violence - and without daft theories about her trying to take over the world.....
If your dog is reactive it is because she feels uncomfortable or anxious. Not because she has a hidden agenda of stealing your husband and making you sleep on the floor. Dogs are simple creatures and have simple aims - to get through the day without pain being one of the top ones. If she is frightened of other dogs, joggers, loud children it is probably because she feels they might hurt her. 
So helping her gain confidence by rewarding calm behaviour and not forcing her into situations that make her afraid would be a good start. 
If you see a `threat` coming, turn away until she stops reacting, and praise when she is calm. 
Hurting a frightened dog to make it be less frightened is only recommended by fools.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Claireand
[B said:


> Hurting a frightened dog to make it be less frightened is only recommended by fools.[/B]


This is so true..


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

gentle reader, 
i have not read the thread - i am beginning with the OP and will go on, making suggestions along the way.


Pupcakes said:


> I'm 23-YO & I own 2... Jack Russells.
> 
> Dottie -
> Dottie is 22-MO, spayed last year & has *dominance aggression*, but shes also *insecure*...
> ...


where does *dominance aggression* as a diagnosis, come from? 
who says this is so - besides U? did the 'behaviorist' below claim this? NO, s/he did not.

*dominance aggro* BTW is exceedingly rare; in a survey of USA vet-behaviorists, who see the worst 
of the worst - after the trainers have given-up, via vet-referral, etc - *the vet-behaviorist survey numbers 
indicate that over 85% of their aggression-cases are rooted in fear, not "dominance".*

in sum: It is extremely-unlikely that Ur dog, who has *not* been referred by Ur vet for specialist help 
via a veterinary-behaviorist, is an undiagnosed case of dominance-aggro. :001_smile: 
this is good news! :thumbup: 


Pupcakes said:


> At the time I [lived elsewhere] & didnt... have much to do with Dottie, [but] I didnt think
> it was fair on our cat to have a dog in the house... [As] my course in Gloucester [ended], I spent more...
> time at home when I wasnt studying.
> ...Dottie was about 6-MO [when] I started taking an interest in her... walking her (as my sister never walked her,
> didnt train her, nothing!) & [we] got close, I even took her to [a] *training class*. [SNIP] When... home, I'd walk her, train her, buy... nice dog food, beds, ...gear, treats, ...name it, I bought it!


this dog was sadly, set-up to be a disaster: she was bought from her breeder? [presuming] at 16-WO, 
which is a full month past her primary-socialization period; *unless that breeder / prior owner invested 
considerable time & effort to socialize & habituate her, she missed a developmental window; it can't be 
reconstructed & that time is not repeatable; it's gone.* so there should have been early signs that 
she either *was* very-well socialized: friendly to friendly strangers, trusting, confident, bold, etc, 
or that she was *not* very-well socialized: hesitant, barky, uncertain in novel settings, & so on. 
not that it matters now, but this would have been visible, if anyone had paid attention.

additionally, she was bought as an accessory by someone who made no effort to teach her manners, 
compensate for her lack of socialization, get help to train her [group class, one-to-one, etc]... 
she was just a live-in visitor who was fed, etc. No exercise, no training... she could only get worse.

*Question - * 
what sort of training class was this? [feel free to refer me to a prior post, if there is one, for the answer.] 


Pupcakes said:


> ...last summer... she [displayed] aggression... at first it was a little thing here [&] a snap there.
> I [hired] a *behaviourist* who [said] *she wasnt aggressive... just liked to play rough*, ...I was relieved
> ...then my friend, *who owns an aggressive rescue dog*... [said] she was aggressive... I spent the whole summer
> in two minds, ...convincing myself she's fine, [yet] knowing there was a problem.


what credentials did the *behaviorist* have? 
a behaviorist has academic creds; generally at least BSci, often a doctoral degree, plus practicum.

what credentials does Ur friend have, *other than* owning an aggro rescue-dog? [which BTW 
is not a confidence-builder, presumably she *chose* this dog, which makes one wonder - most folks 
don't deliberately select a project-pet, they choose a behaviorally-normal pet to take home.]

'playing rough' makes it sound as tho this early-aggro display was mostly toward other dogs?... 
but i do not know this, i presume only; if it was NOT & she was also 'playing rough' with humans, then it is 
likely she has poor bite-inhibition, another legacy from her cr*ppy puphood & not her fault. 


Pupcakes said:


> Dottie will *bark at people walking past the house, joggers in the park, kids on bikes, pushchairs, scooters,
> people just walking through the field that seem to 'appear from nowhere', she doesnt like little kids near her,
> she doesnt like strangers touching her*. Shes half Miss Dominant & half Little Miss Scared-&-Unsure which makes me sad.


IMO *dominance* is the single most-misused & over-used term in dog behavior. 
drop it entirely, is my advice; it adds nothing to the discussion, & simply confuses issues enormously.

BARKING at all those triggers indicates at best, a highly-reactive dog who is environmentally sensitive: 
things change, they react - to *every*thing. 
at worst, it indicates a hypervigilant dog who worries over everything & wants them all to go away. 
barking is a *distance-increasing behavior:* it sends the behaviorally-savvy away, as it says clearly 
that our company is not wanted. I suspect that along with being highly-reactive & vocal, which is *typical 
of her breed*, she is also hypervigilant & anxious.

suggestions - 
* throw every calmative imaginable into her life; see post #22 of the sticky 'dog body-language' for details, 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much... 
When, How, What, etc.

* specific to *visual* triggers: 
get a Calming Cap & use it; it makes anything more than a yard or so away, fuzzy focused & vague. 
it greatly reduces reactivity to visual-stim like _*movement*_. 
52 Weeks : 33/52 - Calming Cap | Flickr - Photo Sharing! 
this is an Aussie who is usually a maniac in the car, barking & lunging; they are moving house, U can clearly 
see that he is relaxed & the trip is both less-stressful & safer for his owners & his fellow pets [cats & dogs!]. 


Pupcakes said:


> If I have a ball out & [we play] fetch, she goes into 'Ball Mode' (I'm sure most of you know it!)
> & she'll focus on NOTHING but the ball, even if 100 kids on bikes rode past, she wouldnt care, so I do use this
> to my advantage. She also *chases shadows & reflections*.


drabbit - :nonod: having a ball-obsessed dog is a handy thing, & that U use this is GREAT - excellent!

unfortunately, an OCD tendency to chase shadows & reflections is not a good sign.  


Pupcakes said:


> She... also [snapped at?] me &... family members a couple of times,
> ...if she jumps up in the warm patch on our seats & we try [to] move her, she growls then snaps at us,
> so I... bought... a new (super comfy!) [dog-]bed for the front room... theres no reason for [the dogs] to be
> on the settees with us, *claiming our space and climbing and sleeping all over us like we're bits of furniture.*


* teach her OFF & UP - rewarding compliance with both cues. 
first lure, then use the former luring-hand [empty] to SIGNAL the movement - all without verbal; 
don't say a thing, since it's only noise for the moment. AFTER she is getting UP & OFF with a hand-signal 
4 times out of 5, add a verbal-cue but *continue to use the hand-signal as a bridge*, until she gets the idea 
& the verbal only is no longer a *label for her action* but becomes a comprehended cue.

* the mere presence of a super-comfy dog-bed does not erase the long history of rewarding experiences 
with the sofa & the people who sit on it - or lie on it, or the view out the window from the sofa, etc. 
so the sofa is still a conditioned attractor - the comfy dog-bed *must be taught* as a rewarding place, 
or *must accrue* a rewarding history of experience. HINT: teaching is faster. 

_to be continued... _


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> If being pinched round the neck for a few months means years of us having, long peaceful, happy walks again, I'll do whatever it takes.


Do you know how to use a prong collar? You are wrong, they dont pinch the dogs for months or years. The dog learns that if it pulls the collar starts to pinch, the dog learns that if it does not pull nothing happens, they will start to work straight away. Analogy, in the same way, would you sit on a chair for months if it had springs sticking through? more than likely you would stand up first time you felt discomfort, see the springs & find another chair to stop the discomfort.

I doubt you will see this before Mon/Sun night, pity I am in London I would have spent an hour tomorrow in Hyde Park & show with my dog how to use a prong collar.

Ill attach a couple of video links to this on one in real life use for the first time, the dog had been dragging its owner for over 6/7 months, exercise down to almost nothing, owner depressed, tense, dreading taking it out & sleepless thinking of a lifetime with the 14 month dragging. Within 5 mins of the first use of the prong collar she over the moon, the videos say it all.

Vid 1, before prong collar after 7 months of habit dragging
YouTube - ‪APDT UK, Training Damage Fall Out Association Pet Dog Trainers UK Ineffective Training Sample.‬‏

Vid 2, First 5 mins of prong collar 
YouTube - ‪3. APDT UK Damaged Dog, Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK.First 5 Mins Prong Collar Recovery‬‏

Vid 4, Three days later, dog & owner full habituated to prong  end of story & back to sound sleep & happy relaxed walks for the owner & no more frustration whining & physical stresses for the dog.
YouTube - ‪4. APDT UK Damaged Dog, Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK.First 5 Mins Prong Collar Recovery‬‏

.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

SleepyBones said:


> .[/COLOR]


People don't want to view the vids.. You realise you going on about such collars may get a member of the public to try one.. and not have the training and knowledge to use one and could seriously harm the dogs personality and trust for people.. 
People who love their dogs are not interested in prong collars and e collars.. training is about trusting and learning together.. In that way you build a bond.. The term mans best friend comes to mind.. Would you shock ya best mate.. I don't think so!!!!


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Please show some respect to the mature poster of this posts wishes with her dog, she's asking for education for her & her dog, to whom my posts are directed.



> If being pinched round the neck for a few months means years of us having, long peaceful, happy walks again, I'll do whatever it takes.


.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Do you know how to use a prong collar? You are wrong, they dont pinch the dogs for months or years. The dog learns that if it pulls the start to pinch, the dog learns that if it does not pull nothing happens, they will start to work straight away, in the same way would you sit on a chair for months if it had springs sticking through, more than likely you would stand up first time you felt discomfort, see the springs & find another chair to stop the discomfort.
> 
> I doubt you will see this before Mon/Sun night, pity I am in London I would have spent an hour tomorrow in Hyde Park & show with my dog how to use a prong collar.
> 
> ...


What has a dog pulling on a lead got to do with the OP's problem of fear aggression? Absolutely Sweet FA! In response to a genuine need for advice, you post videos of some idiot who is too lazy to train their dog to walk nicely on a lead.

As MOM has stated, people who are desperate for help love their dogs and want the best for them, they are not interested in instruments of quick fix, I can get a good night's sleep and to hell with how the dog feels.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Please show some respect to the poster of this posts wishes with her dog, she's asking for education for her & her dog, to whom my posts are directed.
> 
> .


Education when it comes to dogs, presumably means advice on proper training, not quick fix torture instruments. In order to educate someone in a subject you have to first know how to do it yourself.

I do hope all this controversy, which is becoming far too frequent in this section, has not made the OP give up and go somewhere else.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> What has a dog pulling on a lead got to do with the OP's problem of fear aggression? Absolutely Sweet FA! In response to a genuine need for advice, you post videos of some idiot who is too lazy to train their dog to walk nicely on a lead.


The mature & intellegent OP wrote -



> If being pinched round the neck for a few months means years of us having, long peaceful, happy walks again, I'll do whatever it takes.


Maybe you should read her post again, you probably inadvertantly overlooked her ref to prong collars, apart from that the dogs need to focus on her before ANY training of ANY kind takes place, as everyone can see in the videos, after 7 months of the Lab dog completly ignoring her its attention is on her within 5 mins.

.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Education when it comes to dogs, presumably means advice on proper training, not quick fix torture instruments. In order to educate someone in a subject you have to first know how to do it yourself.


Education for mature students in all western democracies means offering as many mulltiple choices of education as possible in as many feilds of education as possible. The mature student is considered by society, of which we are a part, as being capable of making their own choice of all available educational options & as wide a range of tutors as possible.

Western cultures are currently at war with countries not permmiting these freedoms to their populations & the populations themselves are dying every day to gain the freedoms of education & other freedoms we take for granted.

My posts in reponse to the poster were all contextualy educational in nature & form.

.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Education for mature students in all western democracies means offering as many mulltiple choices of education as possible in as many feilds of education as possible. The mature student is considered by society, of which we are a part, as being capable of making their own choice of all available educational options & as wide a range of tutors as possible.
> 
> Western cultures are currently at war with countries not permmiting these freedoms to their populations & the populations themselves are dying every day to gain the freedoms of education & other freedoms we take for granted.
> 
> ...


If I want to learn about something, I will seek out someone qualified to teach it. What qualifications do you have? It has been scientifically proved by highly qualified experts that dogs do not and never will see humans as their pack leader, that they do not live in packs anyway, any more than wolves have ever done. Wolves live in family groups, dogs scavenge for resources, they do not follow one leader.

They are not wired like humans and do not respond to punishment style "training". A trained dog is one who obeys commands willingly, because he wants to. That may have started out with treats and/or praise, but it is maintained by the contenedness of the dog. What you with your barbaric implements are producing is a dog who obeys commands because he is too scared to do anything else. That is not my idea of a trained dog, but it most certainly is a dog who could become afraid and aggressive at any mild provocation.


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## victoriaaa (Jun 8, 2011)

A few people on here would agree, i have gone through, correction are going through the same as you with my ten month old springer Jessie. It takes time but you will see improvements, Jessie did and still occassionally does every single one of the things you mentioned, even the sofa thing... and is the same, as soon as a ball is introducted she stops. I tihnk the only different is that she started off timid of people, and as shes grown up she's learnt she can raise hackles and bark instead of cowering away.

Me being 5ft2 6stone 4 and jessie being what 15/16kg? i thought i need to sort this for her benefit and mine before she grows up and gets even more stronger and harder to manage.

I do the watch me, ive stopped her before people, walked her straight past, changed direction.. everything everyone on here and everywhere else suggestion.. and guess whats working best for me? " goooodd girrrlll, nooo barking, welll done, goood girl".. sounds daft .. but its what works. you need to find what works for you and your dog.. and i can tell you when she doesnt bark, or like me bark for 5 days straight on a walk now.. you will feel amazing.

I also worry about recall, at the moment i am learning her recall on the line without distractions, and when i know she is 110% only then will i do it with distractions, and only when we have improved drastically more. I have been told people may never be able to 'randomly pet her' but to me that doesnt matter, aslong as we can have happy rewarding walks etc together thats all that i care about. 

All i want is for other people to see what an amazing dog she is with me and my family  and im sure your the same... x


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

since you said you've read dozens of books im sure this wont be news to you but... Control the head. At the first sign of aggression with another dog turn your dogs head so that it cannot make eye contact. A halti can make this a lot easier if you have any fear of your dog snapping at you when excited. Stop walking. If possible make your dog sit... allow the other dog to pass. Preferably a good distance away. reward when your dog is calm. You can gradually reduce the distance, but expecting her to remain calm when theres another dog passing within 5ft of her may be asking too much.
but then again, i dont think you want to convey a message of "when i see another dog we change direction to avoid it", because your dog may perceive that as a fear response. You're gonna have to try to see other dogs before your dog does. If there's a route change needed, you can try to make it before your dog notices the 'threat'.

When a dog pulls on its lead to get to another dog the pull of the collar around it's neck can cause them to become increasingly excited. I always tried to hold my boxer around the shoulders/chest when i was dealing with similar problems, and just used the halti to control the head. I cant recommend halti's enough.

Also you have to try to consider the subliminal cues you may be giving. Could it be that you tense up when you see another dog approaching? your dog will feel this down the lead. perhaps you shorten the lead for more control? Your dog could be picking up on this even if you arent aware you are doing it, interpretting it as a sign of nervousness on your part, and going into a protective mode. It's really hard i know. Try speaking softly and happily when you see a potential trigger, say stuff like "oh thats a nice little doggie isnt it!".. "wow, thats a good bike isnt it! yeah it is! come on then, off we go"

I dont know how helpful or correct this all is, i'm just thinking back to what worked for me and Sasha(rip).


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## victoriaaa (Jun 8, 2011)

porps said:


> . Try speaking softly and happily when you see a potential trigger, say stuff like "oh thats a nice little doggie isnt it!".. "wow, thats a good bike isnt it! yeah it is! come on then, off we go"
> 
> I dont know how helpful or correct this all is, i'm just thinking back to what worked for me and Sasha(rip).


thats what works for me too, i say "good girl jess no barking, no barking oooh well done, much bettterrrrr " sounds silly to passers by and i get alot of funny looks but it* does *work!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> I know most people will say *be the Pack Leader*! Well, I'll get to that...
> after a quick briefing on Charlie...


then i'm not _"most people",_ but neither are my thousands of colleagues & hundreds of mentors, so i suspect 
that U hang with the wrong crowd re dog-behavior & how best to integrate dogs into human lives 
& environs.  
even real-packs - wild wolves - don't have *a leader*; basically they have parents, in charge of kids: 
older kids & younger kids, as juveniles who aren't ready to set out on their own will hang around for lessons 
in hunting, patrolling, finding game, choosing targets, & to help rear the younger pups - learning to rear pups 
is also very important. *aside from hunting & eating, raising a litter co-operatively is the most important 
function of a pack - one of the reasons that dogs don't qualify: they don't pair-bond & they don't rear 
ONE litter as a group-effort.*


Pupcakes said:


> ...last year I... bought another JR.., Charlie. I know what you're all thinking, I know,
> *but* I wanted Dottie to have another dog to play... & socialize with etc. Every time we took her [to] the park prior to having Charlie, *she'd go nuts if she saw another dog*.


stating the obvious, addressing her issues re her lack of dog-socialization BEFORE getting another dog 
would have been vastly preferable. 


Pupcakes said:


> ...she took to Charlie really, really well *touch wood* they've *only had 3 fights in the... 8-months... we've had him, 2 were in the first week*...
> They play like nutters... Dottie sounds like a... demon... and Charlie squeals...


without seeing a couple of videos of the 2 at play, it's impossible to say if they play well - squealing 
like an infant can be frustration, protest, or a submissive-signal to 'back-off that hurts'. similarly, demon-sounds 
can be simply excited play, or over-aroused play which is too intense, & in danger of becoming a quarrel. 


Pupcakes said:


> ...I get Charlie... I thought he played well with all dogs, it was a relief to feel
> like I had a "normal" dog... [SNIP] ...*then Charlie started fights with other male dogs, espcially when bitches
> were around, even if they're friendly [boys], he curls his lip & attacks*. He stopped humping all dogs in sight
> after being neutured, but there is *still the [fighting] issue with other males. *


how old was he when desexed?

A TIP: desexing males, particularly terrierrrists & other breeds or such breed-mixes as are prone 
to Male-to-Male aggro, *between 6 & 7-MO saves much grief.* between 8 & 10-MO, juvie-males secrete 
more testosterone than they ever will in their adult-lives - with a peak around 9-MO to 10-MO, then 
testosterone-levels fall to adult-levels around 11 to 12-MO.

HOWEVER - the drop of androgens to adult-levels does not *'erase'* learned behaviors like male-male aggro 
or male:male reactivity & posturing displays... which U have already, sadly, seen - Charlie is living proof. 
i am going to bet that Charlie was desexed after 8-MO, & after he began to posture & pick quarrels with 
other males - around 5 to 6-MO? 
the humping probably began around 12 to 16-WO & rapidly increased in frequency about 6-MO. 


Pupcakes said:


> He also [is] aggressive when other dogs are around [food]; say a treat falls on the floor,
> [he's] the first to attack over it... not all dogs, but some. ...*Dottie [& he] can eat from the same bowl,
> & I can stick my hand in his food bowl* and he wouldnt give a damn.


being aggro over food if they have not been taught better is *species-normal behavior - * 
don't blame the dog, blame the breeder & Ur sister, neither of whom bothered to teach him to trust that he 
will not be starved if he does not fight for every scrap of possible calories.

* having any 2 adult-dogs share a bowl of food is *a set-up for violence & a bad idea. 
dams will share a bowl with their 4 to 5-WO pups when they are not yet eating much, but by 5 to 6-WO 
she will resent this - she's still nursing them & needs the calories - & will growl them off.*
at 5 to 6-WO the pups should have a FLYING SAUCER - not a simple bowl! - to space themselves around, 
& by 7-WO each should have their own bowl - even if there are a dozen pups, everybody gets their own. 
this reduces needless aggro AND *allows the breeder to monitor how much each pup eats*, valuable 
data to have which indicates the pup's health & emotional state.

* *ditto for shoving one's hand in any dog's bowl while they eat - No excuses, IMO, just don't do it. 
it's rude, intrusive & pointless. *


Pupcakes said:


> You wouldnt believe this little dog could be such a bugger.
> He is generally okay with people, [but] *has started to bark at people [while] on... walks*...
> because he is... small & has... a sweet... face people tend to dismiss it, but I take it seriously nonetheless.


as U take this seriously, what are U doing about it? 
have U consulted a CAAB, or an APBC or COAPE member? or even an APDT-uk trainer with experience 
in aggression issues?... [betting not, here. :huh: ] 


Pupcakes said:


> Charlie tends to follow [suit] so when Dottie barks or attack, he will join in...
> ...[if he's solo], if someone walks past the house or [enters], he's happy & excited but if Dottie]s around,
> he'll go mental with her too & *sometimes they snap at each other in all the hyped up emotion*.


re-directed aggro under intense arousal is very common, & breeds who have poor impulse-control 
[terrierrrists, Chis, BCs, & other reactive breeds - AND any such mixes] are predictably prone to this.

SUGG: 
*separate them* whenever there are visitors to the house, one behind a baby-gate, the other on leash, 
turn & turn about; practice polite control with the leashed dog, used Treat & retreat with both, etc.

if U don't have a baby-gate, install a couple of tethers by screwing self-seating eye-bolts 
into the baseboard within eyesight of the door - 8 to 10-ft away or more - & within eyesight of visitors; 
where do U entertain visitors? the tethered dog does not have to be in the same room, but needs to see 
the visitors from whatever distance allows her/him to hang out & observe, without being highly reactive: 
EX, barking if they bend forward to stand-up, bark & lunge if they walk across the room, etc. 
Tethered to Success 
18-inches of free bike-cable between the clips at either end is plenty.



Pupcakes said:


> He howls like a good'un if me AND Dottie go out without him & works himself
> up into a right state, he wont stop until one or both of us return.


which is a doggone good reason to begin working ANY pup or dog added to a home with a resident dog 
ALONE, from their first arrival. this accustoms the added-dog to the idea that they are not conjoined-twins. 
again, not the dog's fault - but after a year of practice, this will take time & work to repair. 


Pupcakes said:


> There also seems to be some... dominance battle between... them, Dottie will hump Charlie
> & vice-versa, sometimes Charlie bosses Dottie about & sometimes its the other way round,
> so I dont know who is higher than [whom] between... them.


 A - dog re dog status does not matter, so long as BOTH are willing to comply with cues they know, 
from humans they know - it is utterly immaterial. If one dog harasses or bullies another, 
*it's up to the humans to intervene when this is excessive & affects their quality of life.* 
a certain amount of disagreement is inevitable, but should be minimal with good management.

B - humping can be over-arousal / a displacement behavior when over-excited, 
an invitation to play [especially given Dottie's lousy start & poor socialization], 
boredom, not knowing what else to do, interrupting the other dog, a feel-good behavior... 
or a dozen other things. *if U don't like it, just interrupt it like any other unwanted behavior, 
& re-direct the dog into something U prefer - toss a ball, play fetch, Tug-of-Peace... *


Pupcakes said:


> Charlie is great around kids... I even take him to work with me in [an elder] care home,
> and *they grab his ears, shout at him, pull his tail, you name it, they do it *
> and he doesnt bat an eyelid. He just sits in their laps until they've had enough.


sorry - if U are 6-MO, 6-YO or past 60-YO, it does not matter: *rude is rude. 
pulling, pinching, pokes, etc, are rude - if they cannot handle him nicely, TAKE HIM AWAY 
& allow another kind person to have the dog visit them, instead. End of sentence.*


Pupcakes said:


> I've bought endless... books, training DVDs, equipment, dog trainers in order
> to try & bring all these problems under control. I must have spent thousands on these dogs.... Not to mention
> the endless hours watching Its Me or The Dog on TV, on-line.


if U are playing mix-N-match, the dogs can be even more confused than they were before. 
some things - like Flexis & headcollars, or plastic-prongs & teaching LLW - do not go together. 
U cannot simply play Chinese-take-out & choose 1 from each column... 


Pupcakes said:


> [ATM] I have to walk both my dogs seperately, muzzled & on a long-line.
> I used to walk them both together for an hour, but now I do a high energy walk with [each, of] 30/40 mins...
> (Fetch, chase a toy etc) so the excess energy is [spent] and I mix training in... as well.
> 
> ...


* 
EXCUSE ME?! Flexis or any other extending-lead do NOT go with headcollars. 
bluntly speaking, shame on U - Flexi-type leads put constant tension on the dog, as they are spring-loaded 
& the dog must PULL - to get leash out, to keep leash out, & to get more leash-length.

putting an extending-lead on a HEADCOLLAR is frankly a form of torture. It cranks the dog's head around, 
it puts pressure on the dog's nose with the spring-tension on the nose-band, it constricts BLOOD-FLOW... 
for shame. :nono: headcollars go on a LEASH - a proper, normal leash.

HEADCOLLARS are for control - EXTENDING LEADS are [theoretically] for 'freedom', 
altho IMO they're asinine & i wish they'd never been invented. A long-line serves the same purpose, 
WITHOUT teaching, rewarding & requiring the dog to pull.


Pupcakes said:



...treats, clicker, lead... went flying everywhere.

Click to expand...

poor management on Ur part does not mean the training-method is flawed. 
Flexis have badly-designed handles that i swear are intended to be dropped, pulled from one's grasp, etc. 
a clicker with a wrist-band cannot be dropped; a waist-bag for treats does not need to be held, 
& some have snap-down lids to prevent spills or dogs who try to free-feed, etc. 


Pupcakes said:



I've stopped using treats for training. Charlie is SO food-[oriented] he'll jump in a fire for a crumb 
& not listen to ANYTHING just focus on [the] food, & as soon as Dottie ate the treat, she's ...raring up again.

Click to expand...

if Charlie is manic about food, use low-level treats - like kibble.

or simply use activities: a tuggee, etc. Toss a ball to fetch, if he loves to jump, send him around the room 
without touching the floor as a reward - sofa to chair to... - or give him just one jump for fun, whatever.


Pupcakes said:



I am currently training them with Don Sullivans system, ...you may have heard of him. 
I have a command collar on both... a step down from a prong collar, I know you'll all be shouting at the screen 
disgusted with me, but before you judge me, please understand, I used to be a firm believe in Pos-R and totally 
dismiss any other kind of training, but after not being successful with that I am now trying what I didnt believe in, Neg-R.

I do EVERYTHING for these dogs [SNIP] they sleep in lovely beds, they eat well, even after a 12 hour shift 
if they havent been walked by another member of my family, I get straight out there and ensure they both get 
a good run. I love these dogs... no matter how much stress or embarrassment they may cause me, 
they are my life. You may think I'm wicked and cruel for using these collars on them, but I am not. 
I would cut my arms off for these dogs, all I want is to be able to walk them together again, without having to worry 
about them getting into fights or being attacked or even killed by dogs bigger and stronger than them. 
If being pinched round the neck for a few months means years of us having, long peaceful, happy walks again, 
I'll do whatever it takes.

Click to expand...

oh, heavens  can we stop the violins? 
command-collars are simply PLASTIC prong-collars -  additionally, IMO they're cheaply-made 
& in the experience of others who have used them, prone to break.

how much U love them isn't the question; CAN YOU RE-TRAIN THEM? is the question. 
it seems to me U can't re-train them without help; more, U'd have saved considerable time & money IMO 
with a good group-class led by an APDT-uk trainer BACK WHEN they were pups, instead of wait till both 
are over 12-MO & adult-behaviors [aggro, male:male reactivity, etc] are complicating things enormously. 


Pupcakes said:



I am trying to be a good, firm, fair leader to my dogs, which I think I am... a very self-conscious, passive-aggro, 
submissive type, [not] much self confidence. If I was a dog, I'd be the first dog in the park to roll over 
and lie there. ...I am very slowly but surely building myself up to be strong for my dogs & give them the life we both deserve.

Click to expand...

join Toastmasters - or something.  the Dogs are not the reason for YOUR lack of self-confidence, 
& do not need to be the boots-strap that U haul Urself up on, either. 


Pupcakes said:



My family... try [to] help... but they dont always listen to the rules I set and break them which makes me 
so mad, but they get sick of hearing about it. I dont think they realise the importance of [the rules?] 
because Im the only person who walks them, although everyone in the house loves them. I ensure they have 
decent food, toys, walks the lot.

Click to expand...

if they can't or won't be consistent, tell them STOP HELPING - with friends like them, U don't need enemies. 


Pupcakes said:



I dream, I visualise it in my head, of having my 2 dogs well behaved, running off lead round the park, 
unmuzzled, being good and getting on with dogs.

Click to expand...

* they do not HAVE TO run off-leash... to have happy lives 
* they do not HAVE TO play with other dogs... " " " " 
* they do need to be relatively well-behaved to keep their humans happy. 


Pupcakes said:



I used to wake up early and LOVE walking my dogs, now I'm... on edge & its more like a military drill 
than a pleasure. Once the the second dog is walked & [re-enters] the back gate, I breathe a sigh of relief 
and if they havent got in a fight, its a bonus.

Click to expand...

i thought U are walking each dog solo? 
if so, HOW have U addressed Charlie's melt-down when he is left home, & U walk Dottie? 
they can only fight if they are together - so they cannot be fighting during walks, right?

Candice, i'd find a good local trainer - toss the prongs, go to a basic-manners class, teach EACH dog solo 
& that means separate Charlie from Dottie during the times when they are home together, put them 
in separate rooms, crate him or her & have the other free, tether one & leave the other loose, WEAR one 
on an umbilical-cord leash attached to Ur waist with the other loose, etc.

the trainer is critical: they have to be experienced with aggro, use positive reinforcement, 
Not Use prong, choke or shock collars, Not Use leash-jerks, Alpha-rolls, intimidation, confrontation, 
flooding - or other tactics or tools which at base, use fear, pain or threat to get compliance.

if no local trainer fits the description, i'd suggest a copy of Click to Calm from the library. 
if the local library has no copy of their own, they can borrow it via interlibrary loan - generally, 
this means U pay po$tage to mail it, which is very inexpensive. 
this book has step-by-step, safe, humane protocols; a number of local clients who could not afford 
long-term one-to-one help have used this book successfully, on their own, to resolve issues ranging from aggro 
to reactivity on-leash, or to reduce global fears & anxieties, etc.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ON-LINE resources which are free include - 
* Overall DVM - 
a vet-behaviorist & AVSAB-member, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorists. 
home-page: Welcome to k9aggression.com | Dog Aggression Education, Support and Resources 
the SITE MAP can be especially helpful.

protocols - What is Behavior Modification? | k9aggression.com

read the center section for the broad outlines; for How-To, see the right-hand margin... 
like Deferment protocols, Disassociating departure cues, etc.

* the ASPCA's virtual-behaviorist - 
ASPCA - Virtual Pet Behaviorist - Aggression in Dogs 
a huge database of articles.

* an excerpt re ages & stages: 
Dog Owner's Guide: Canine Aggression - brackets indicate my editing.


> _ Canine aggression
> 
> Introduction
> Aggression in dogs is the most serious behavior problem that pet owners must deal with, & it is largely
> ...


*this phrase * is IMO & IME of over-25-years, pure manure. 
the article as a whole contains some outdated info - dominance-aggro is now generally referred to as 
owner-directed or conflicted-aggro; pack-theory was disproved over 20-years ago; linear hierarchy 
does not develop in dogs, etc.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

God help me, but I 100% agree with what Leashed For Life has said :w00t:

You and your dogs need serious basic professional help if you are to progress, listen to what has at length been thoroughly explained and act on it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> God help me, but I 100% agree with what Leashed For Life has said :w00t:


_Stop the presses... we've got a new front-page! 
:thumbup: i always wanted to say that,  thanks for the opportunity, Irish-Setter-Gal._


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Sleepy, this is what you said:



SleepyBones said:


> If you don't accept Skinner then you eliminate yourself from using his technical terminology, which your always doing but always with the incorrect interpretation of it.


So then, why do you proceed to use the term 'dominance' in the way that ethologist never intended it to be used?



SleepyBones said:


> ]
> 
> Yes, if the dog(s) perceive you as lower ranking they will ignore you if & wehn they feel like it. Ignoring is a common behavioural characteristic of dominance.


And where is the evidence that dogs perceive us as part of a hierarchy? And even if they do, rankings and 'dominance', as used in ethology, *should not be behaviour problems*. They just are.



> The sole purpose of a species is the survival of the species, lower order, weaker, less fit 'in many ways', pack members are the least likely to carry the genes which heighten the probability of ensuring the survival of the pack by reproducing offspring capable of leading a pack to success in hunting & tedrritorial defence where offspring can be reared in safety etc, etcs. *In certain situations, only the fittest will survive.*


Rankings in wild wolf packs and domestic dog social groupings have been researched avidly in the last 20 years and we are now more confused in a lot of ways than before. What is agreed on is that packs are extended families, with a preformed ranking system, most probably to do with age (breeding pair> yearlings> offspring) and perhaps to do with sex (males out-rank females or there are separate same-sex hierarchies). The idea that only "the fittest will survive" is not really applicable to packs as the importance is age and/or sex...NOT strength or size or efficiency. However, individuals which are ecologically 'fit' will perhaps have better chance of acquiring a mate when they disperse from their family pack, to start their own pack where they are immediately and indesputably the higher-ranking/dominant animals.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

Candice you've received quite a bit of advice from forum members in a fairly short time. Read all of it. Digest all of it. Pick which tool/method combination you think will give you the best results and try it out. Give it at least a couple of months to give it time to work. If it does not, try some of the other advice. Give those methods the same trial period.

After doing this if you get the results you want, HOORAY! But if you're not happy with the results or find that you are not able to get them because the tool/method just does not work for you, then BEFORE you think about taking the dog to the shelter, otherwise getting rid of him or just plain give up and decide to live with it, give the Ecollar a think.

Don't listen to the people who have advised against it making statements about fear, pain, barbarism or anything of the sort. These are people who really know very little, if anything at all, about the tool and are reacting out of their own lack of knowledge. Their comments are either based on what they've heard read, or imagined. Some may have seen old time use of the tool and have based their comments on that.

I suggest that you read this article about a dog named Roma. Roma was the most fear aggressive dog (with people and other dogs) that I've ever heard of. She makes your dog look like a dream dog. If Roma walked from the shadows under a tree on a bright sunny day into the bright sunlight someone was gonna get bit! Her owner had tried many of the so−called "kinder gentler methods" including clickers, calming remedies and T−Touch massage. They helped a bit but did not stop the behaviors.

ALL that I did with Roma was to teach the recall and the sit with the Ecollar. She already knew the behaviors, her owner had them trained with the so−called "kinder gentler methods," but teaching them again with the Ecollar has other effects besides just teaching the dog to come when called and sit on command. Doing just these two things will gave Roma the confidence needed to stop her problem behavior, and I have no doubt it will do the same thing for your dog. Teaching the recall. and Teaching the sit. People who don't understand the Ecollar won't understand how this can possibly happen, but it does.

As to the dog to dog aggression issues you're having, there's another protocol that I developed to work on that but you should start with the recall and the sit.

Just one bit more and then I'll get out of your hair. When I first met Roma and was talking to her owner, someone nearby made a noise. Not an exceptionally loud noise but loud enough to startle Roma. She came up at my face to bite me! This is not a scared dog nipping someone to drive them out of her space, this was a case of "I have to kill you to survive." After just 25 minutes of working with the Ecollar Roma climbed up into my lap and was licking my face.

Good luck with your dog no matter what you decide to do. Please keep us advised.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Candice. Please do think about it. How are Guide Dogs, Hearing Dogs, Canine Partners for Independence, Dogs for the Disabled, Support Dogs etc trained here in the UK? With positive, reward based methods! 

I rest my case. <thud>


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

a dog is not a TV or a Bose-radio; operating them via a remote is IMO & IME, not a good choice.

* box-muzzles *properly conditioned* prevent bites to anyone, k9, human or other. 
YouTube - ‪Jean Donaldson gets conditioned emotional response while fitting Gentle Leader‬‏

YouTube - ‪Muzzle Training‬‏

a dog needs a sport-cap bottle to drink from while muzzled - always introduce liquids or food 
FROM THE SIDE, not center-front!, to prevent inhalation & choking, blocked airway, inhalation pneumonia, etc.

* a long-line on a front-clip harness allows the dog to run, prevents runaways, & easily directs the dog - 
not merely controlling 'how distant is the dog from the handler', like a conventional-clipped harness, 
or any neck-collar of any design whatever.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Candice. Please do think about it. How are Guide Dogs, Hearing Dogs, Canine Partners for Independence,
> Dogs for the Disabled, Support Dogs etc trained here in the UK? With positive, reward based methods!
> 
> I rest my case. <thud>


_*really?... :w00t: that's incredible. :thumbup: *_


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> 1) Try to keep the dogs under threshold
> 2) Teach a solid "watch me"
> 
> ...SNIP...
> ...


very much agree, & a helpful variation is _*Look at That!... :001_smile:*_ specifically for coping with triggers; 
it is covered nicely by multiple videos on UTube, search for "*control unleashed*".

briefly - 
- handler sees / hears trigger 
- brightly directs dog, _'Look at that! a dog...'_, as if they've never seen one. :lol: [or whatever the trigger]
- dog LOOKS, **click!**, treats rain down so long as trigger is visible/audible. 
- trigger is out of sight / earshot? treats *cease.*

notice that this is not contingent: the dog gets the treats NO MATTER WHAT s/he is doing. 
this is classical conditioning: we want the dog [eventually] to see/hear their former trigger, & turn 
to the handler expectantly for their 'treat', which becomes random rewards but *always* includes praise, 
to maintain the behavior. * the dog should still be under threshold: aware, but not reactive.* 
if the dog is reacting, back up.

Leslie McDevitt wrote a book of the same title, which is excellent - most libraries can get a copy 
via interlibrary loan, if they haven't got one on the shelf.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Candice. Please do think about it. How are Guide Dogs, Hearing Dogs, Canine Partners for Independence, Dogs for the Disabled, Support Dogs etc trained here in the UK? With positive, reward based methods!
> 
> I rest my case. <thud>


Candice does not have a dog that's being trained for any of those jobs. They don't pick candidates that have these sorts of issues. They probably couldn't train a dog like hers with them.

At least one group that you mention, in the UK, uses Ecollars. They don't advertise this fact because of the general response that they'd get, but they do use them. I just checked, they're still using them.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> a dog is not a TV or a Bose-radio; operating them via a remote is IMO & IME, not a good choice.


Dogs properly trained with Ecollars and modern methods are not any different than dogs trained with other methods; except that they tend to be more reliable. Fun With Rudy Tootie



leashedForLife said:


> * box-muzzles *properly conditioned* prevent bites to anyone, k9, human or other.


When an Ecollar user talks about establishing the identical relationship with the Ecollar and play or training you folks poo poo it and say that the dog is just anticipating what comes after. Yet here we have the exact same thing and links gets posted describing how wonderful it is!



leashedForLife said:


> a dog needs a sport-cap bottle to drink from while muzzled 


Depends on the muzzle and the water bowl. The dogs I trained for police work wore their muzzles for long periods of time. They drank from bowls and buckets.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> Candice does not have a dog that's being trained for any of those jobs.


No. Her dog is a pet. A companion animal. It is irresponsible to advise a pet owner to start using an electric shock collar. That is not the sort of 'training' that this lady needs to get into and I would certainly hope that she doesn't.

Now, I do not give a fig what you think of reward based training Lou. Your input on this thread is out of place and just another excuse to promote your blasted punishment devices. It may be the only way YOU could train a dog like the one Candice has but it is not the only way and most certainly not the best.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> No. Her dog is a pet. A companion animal.


So why would you think it's pertinent to tell Candice how _"Guide Dogs, Hearing Dogs, Canine Partners for Independence, Dogs for the Disabled, Support Dogs etc"_ are trained? ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that one of the groups you said does not use Ecollars DOES use them?



CarolineH said:


> It is irresponsible to advise a pet owner to start using an electric shock collar.


Since I've been using the tool for well over two decades and regularly give such advice to pet owners who have used it to great advantage for the same problems, I'll disagree.

*If your methods and tools were as effective as you'd like the folks to believe, NO ONE would EVER get to the Ecollar. They'd try your methods first, as I suggested, they'd work and there would be no need. *But you know that people with problems often try those methods only to have them fail either because they're not suitable for the dogs or for the behavior or the owner can't apply them properly. YOU KNOW that if they get to the Ecollar they will succeed! And so you have to do this each and every time the Ecollar comes up.



CarolineH said:


> That is not the sort of 'training' that this lady needs to get into and I would certainly hope that she doesn't.


We'll see. If your methods work, as I said "HOORAY!" But if they don't there's no reason that this dog or this owner should go on suffering with this situation.



CarolineH said:


> Now, I do not give a fig what you think of reward based training Lou.


Somehow I'll manage to press on. LOL In case anyone else does care, I like what you call _"reward based training"_ and use it when it's appropriate. But it's not always appropriate.



CarolineH said:


> Your input on this thread is out of place


My input on this, or any similar thread, is just as fitting as that given by anyone else. What is _"out of place"_ is this comment from you. If you want a forum where you can shut me up, I suggest you start one of your own. Until then ...



CarolineH said:


> and just another excuse to promote your blasted punishment devices.


AGAIN Demonstrating how little you know of Ecollars. They're NOT just _"punishment devices."_ For every button press (+P) there's a button release (R). Can you read and understand that CarolineH? The second part is REINFORCEMENT!



CarolineH said:


> It may be the only way YOU could train a dog like the one Candice has but it is not the only way and most certainly not the best.


There are many ways to train such a dog. Perhaps your methods will work. But if they don't, it's not the only way to proceed. I happen to think that the Ecollar is the best answer for these issues. It's the fastest, will have the least impact on the dog and it's easy for the owner to apply. But I'm perfectly happy to let the owner try your methods first and learn this firsthand.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

it just so happens that i know ordinary-folks who have trained their own assistance dogs, using rewards, 
good management, & on-line support groups, UTube videos, etc - some add DVDs, or books.

more than that, i helped several disabled handlers train their own SDs - & they were *not* purpose-bred, 
in fact every one was a shelter-adoptee - & some had significant behavioral problems, to begin with. 
[i did not get to choose the dogs - their prospective handlers did, sometimes with more emotion than logic.  ]

remarkably, they managed to train their dogs to public-access standards *without* resort to shock, 
or prongs, or chokes, or indeed any 'corrections': no leash-jerks, scolding, pokes, pins, rolls, etc. :thumbup:

if a disabled handler who is very-much a novice trainer can self-train their own SD 
to reliable standards, from a shelter-dog chosen mostly at whim, using reward-based training, 
i see absolutely no reason why ordinary, everyday problem-behaviors like _dog-reactivity in 
a terrier_ - [*shockingly rare  *] should be impossible to address with humane methods.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

What a small world ... It just so happens that I know ordinary-folks who have trained their own assistance dogs, * using Ecollars. *

More than that, I helped several disabled handlers train their own service dogs and they were not purpose-bred, in fact everyone of them was a shelter-adoptee. Some had significant behavioral problems, to begin with. (I did not get to choose the dogs - their prospective handlers did, sometimes with more emotion than logic).

Remarkably, they managed to train their dogs to public-access standards without resort to prongs, or chokes, or indeed any 'corrections': no leash-jerks, scolding, pokes, pins, rolls, etc. *They just used the Ecollars, praise and toys. *



leashedForLife said:


> if a disabled handler who is very-much a novice trainer can self-train their own SD to reliable standards, from a shelter-dog chosen mostly at whim, using reward-based training, i see absolutely no reason why ordinary, everyday problem-behaviors like _dog-reactivity in a terrier_ - [*shockingly rare *] should be impossible to address with humane methods. [/size]


I see no reason for this either. *But I've seen similar issues many times and the owners were not able to get it done. * Perhaps this time it will be different. But if it's not you folks have not offered any alternatives. I have.

Interesting that some are so unsure that their methods will work EVEN THOUGH I've suggest that Candice try ALL OF THEM FIRST, that you have to keep posting in this fashion. If you were so sure that your methods will work why do you keep doing it? She'd take your suggestions (MINE TOO BTW) they'll work and she'll never even think of the Ecollar. Yet you keep doing this. Notice that I'm confident that your methods WON'T work but you're NOT confident that they will. If you were you'd not respond to my posts at all. You'd know that Candice would use your methods, they'd work and the Ecollar would not even be an issue.

The mere fact that some of you folks keep this up with such regularity speaks volumes about what you think, but are afraid to say, about your methods. If they were as good as you'd like us to believe you'd write your posts and then let the methods speak for themselves. I'm certainly not badmouthing your methods, I said that Candice should TRY THEM FIRST! But you folks can't help yourselves, you have to badmouth the methods of others.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Do you know how to use a prong collar? You are wrong, they dont pinch the dogs for months or years. The dog learns that if it pulls the collar starts to pinch, the dog learns that if it does not pull nothing happens, they will start to work straight away. Analogy, in the same way, would you sit on a chair for months if it had springs sticking through? more than likely you would stand up first time you felt discomfort, see the springs & find another chair to stop the discomfort.
> .


You know I tried to keep reading the thread, but this just bothered me too much.

Your analogy makes no sense. Of course I wouldn't sit on the chair for months, I would fix it or replace it. If I didn't have the money to do so I would at the least put some cushions on it, get rid of it and put cushions on the floor or* something* as the bloody thing is obviously broken. I would not just 'avoid' the chair, nor would I have a defective chair that no one could sit in sitting there just for the visual experience. Unfortunately your dog cannot fix your defective collar that hurts him/her every time they see something they want to go after. Nor can they say 'Stop shocking me you sadistic fruck!' - because they more often don't believe their beloved owner is doing that to them and instead focus on what was within their sight/smell range when they receive your loving shock.

A better analogy would be that we don't beat the sense into our children anymore because we've learned that it's abusive and causes more harm than good. Captive whales and dolphins are not beaten into performing and animal circuses have better (but not enough IMO) regulations as well as to how they're allowed to train. It used to be that they used razor rakes on elephants to get them to comply, imagine that on your skin.

The point I'm (perhaps badly) trying to make is that there are better ways to train your dog that don't involve pain and fear. I don't understand why ANYONE would not take that route and part of me really fears that those that do use instruments such as e-collars, prong collars and the like. get some kind of satisfaction out of knowing that they are in absolute control because they can stop a dog in it's tracks with just the push of a button or yank of a lead. And that saddens me.

I'm sorry if I've gone overboard here.


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Lou can you explain me please why e-collar is called also a shock collar.

Is it because it gives a tickle or because it shock a dog?:001_unsure:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Andromeda said:


> Lou can you explain me please why e-collar is called also a shock collar.
> 
> g?:001_unsure:


This might explain it for you. Copied and pasted from one of Lous articles.
Accesible via a link on his own website.



> The Electronic Collar
> Copyright 2002 - Sgt. Lou Castle
> Past President of the Los Angeles County Police Canine Assoc.
> 
> ...


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

So basic another "wise" term. It is like with instead saying to someone you are stupid we can say you aren't wise...
Everything to look good in another peoples eyes.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Andromeda said:


> So basic another "wise" term. It is like with instead saying to someone you are stupid we can say you aren't wise...
> Everything to look good in another peoples eyes.


I think it can also be reffered to as a play on words.


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## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Candice. Please do think about it. How are Guide Dogs, Hearing Dogs, Canine Partners for Independence, Dogs for the Disabled, Support Dogs etc trained here in the UK? With positive, reward based methods!
> 
> I rest my case. <thud>


QUOTE (LOU CASTLE) - So why would you think it's pertinent to tell Candice how "Guide Dogs, Hearing Dogs, Canine Partners for Independence, Dogs for the Disabled, Support Dogs etc" are trained? ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that one of the groups you said does not use Ecollars DOES use them?

Mmm interesting Mr Castle. I for one would like you to name the organisation you are bringing these allegations against.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

Jonesey said:


> Your analogy makes no sense. Of course I wouldn't sit on the chair for months, I would fix it or replace it. If I didn't have the money to do so I would at the least put some cushions on it, get rid of it and put cushions on the floor or* something* as the bloody thing is obviously broken. I would not just 'avoid' the chair


You're reading too much into Sleepy's analogy. The point is that you'd avoid sitting in the chair. Carrying it any further departs from common sense. Similarly a dog who pulls into a properly fitted pinch collar avoids doing so again. End of reality.



Jonesey said:


> Unfortunately your dog cannot fix your defective collar that hurts him/her every time they see something they want to go after.


Sure they can. NOT pulling into the collar, which BTW is not defective, ensures that he does not get the discomfort.



Jonesey said:


> Nor can they say 'Stop shocking me you sadistic fruck!' -


Sure they can. They simply obey the command that's been given. Dogs trained with my methods learn that they can easily avoid the minor discomfort by complying with commands.



Jonesey said:


> because they more often don't believe their beloved owner is doing that to them


Exactly right. They believe that the discomfort comes from * the environment and their own actions. *



Jonesey said:


> A better analogy would be that we don't beat the sense into our children anymore because we've learned that it's abusive and causes more harm than good.


Nah that's a horrible analogy from the logical, reasonable and rational standpoint. That's always the case with the human child = dog analogy. It is an EXCELLENT emotional argument and you are to be commended for trying it. lol.



Jonesey said:


> Captive whales and dolphins are not beaten into performing and animal circuses have better (but not enough IMO) regulations as well as to how they're allowed to train.


Say it with me now. Dogs are not marine mammals. Nor are they circus animals. 
Those animals are trained as they are because it's quite difficult to train them any other way. Many of the latter tend to eat trainers who use physical corrections on them. But those methods do not give very good reliability. Ask anyone who trains them who is honest. If a dolphin does not want to perform on Monday they merely substitute another dolphin and use him. They are also in quite safe environments. That's not the case with dogs. We've placed then into environments that are full of cars, poisoned grain and yummy drops of deadly anti-freeze in the driveway. If Monday your dog decides not to recall immediately and instead take a few slurps of the anti-freeze, you can't merely substitute another dog for him.



Jonesey said:


> The point I'm (perhaps badly) trying to make is that there are better ways to train your dog that don't involve pain and fear.


I agree, that's one reason that I use an Ecollar. Since you're here and seem to think that Ecollars and pinch collars cause _"pain and fear" _can you tell us where they show up in this video?



Jonesey said:


> I don't understand why ANYONE would not take that route and part of me really fears that those that do use instruments such as e-collars, prong collars and the like. get some kind of satisfaction out of knowing that they are in absolute control because they can stop a dog in it's tracks with just the push of a button or yank of a lead. And that saddens me.


Really?! It GLADDENS me. I know that sometimes dogs run towards busy roads and don't immediately obey commands to recall. I think *it's a good thing * that the owner can _"stop a dog in its tracks with just the push of a button or yank of the lead."_


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## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

Andromeda said:


> Lou can you explain me please why e-collar is called also a shock collar.
> 
> Is it because it gives a tickle or because it shock a dog?


I call them Ecollars because it's faster to say and easier to write. It also avoids the negative connotation with electricity that just about everyone in modern countries have with the word "shock."

You, of course, can call it whatever you like. But when I put them on people and have them feel the first level of stim that they can feel *not one person * of the thousands who have felt it (all my clients and just about everyone who has ever attended one of my seminars) has ever called it a shock. Rather they've described it as a "buzz, a tingle," or "a tap." Children who feel it giggle. But there are those who prefer "shock collar" for its negative emotional effect.

There are many people who think that tickling is a form of torture. There are thousands of people killed in cars every day but no one calls them "steel death boxes." Calling a shock collar an Ecollar is a euphemism. No one is fooled into believing that they don't use electricity to create an aversive that a dog will work to avoid.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel quoted from my website


> The Electronic Collar
> Copyright 2002 - Sgt. Lou Castle
> Past President of the Los Angeles County Police Canine Assoc.
> 
> ...


But as is her habit, she fails to provide a link. I guess she thinks that makes it too easy for people to get to information on Ecollars. I think getting to information should be easy. So just click here to get to the quotation and much, much more. It's from an article I wrote years ago that another trainer (Dr. P) thought was so good that he asked to host it on his website that has dozens of articles for people looking for information on dog training.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I think it can also be reffered to as a play on words.


It's commonly called a euphemism and I doubt that anyone goes a day without using them.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

Earlier I wrote,


> So why would you think it's pertinent to tell Candice how "Guide Dogs, Hearing Dogs, Canine Partners for Independence, Dogs for the Disabled, Support Dogs etc" are trained? ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that one of the groups you said does not use Ecollars DOES use them?





Honey Bee said:


> Mmm interesting Mr Castle. I for one would like you to name the organisation you are bringing these allegations against.


I'm not _"bringing any allegations against"_ any _"organization"_ Honey Bee. I'm simply sharing some personal knowledge. Why would it make any difference to you? Either the dogs are doing their jobs or they're not.

This is not an "end justifies the means" argument. Rather, you folks keep talking about the fear, pain, and how horrible Ecollars are. Descriptions of the horrible results they give go on and on. Yet there are quite a few of us who know how to use the tool so that excellent results are obtained. My website shares such information. Among those trainers are from some from one of the organizations that I mentioned. CarolineH was perfectly happy to cite them as an example of how dogs should be trained. And, I'd bet you (and many others) were perfectly happy to let them stand as such examples as well. I don't think that should change because one of those organizations uses a tool that many don't like.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Can we bring the thread back to topic?


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Agree with ISG. Can you all go and have your bun fights on a separate thread. Same old personal arguments and the topics are becoming increasingly difficult (and boring) to read.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

It would be nice Irish Setter Gal. 

Sadly this, like many other threads, has been hijacked by the same old thread hijackers and will probably just end up locked rather than things sorted out.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> NONSENSE. Take responsibility for your own actions. You folks gave the OP advice. I gave the OP advice. Then YOU FOLKS do what you always do, start badmouthing the advice given to try the Ecollar. * EVEN THO that advice said to try ALL of your methods FIRST. * * YOU FOLKS * are the ones who hijacked the thread with your anti−Ecollar comments. IN FACT CarolineH YOU were the first one to do so.


Excuse me? It was Sleepybones who brought them up! (as usual)

Oh and just because ecollars are mentioned does not mean you have to start your tirades like an avenging angel!

Bog off with the 'YOU FOLKS' as well! Many of us are getting sick of it.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 18, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Excuse me? It was Sleepybones who brought them up! (as usual)


Until this forum bans discussion on Ecollars it's entirely appropriate to bring them up when someone asks for advice and we think that the Ecollar will be useful. When that happen YOU FOLKS start the same old, tired out arguments. We only respond to them. Im not badmouthing your methods but you feel no such reticence to return the favor.



CarolineH said:


> Oh and just because ecollars are mentioned does not mean you have to start your tirades like an avenging angel!


Pot  Kettle  Black. Don't like it? Don't start it.



CarolineH said:


> Bog off with the 'YOU FOLKS' as well! Many of us are getting sick of it.


Yamean that YOU FOLKS are _"getting sick of it?_ ROFL


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Can we bring the thread back to topic?


I agree. Posts that take the thread way, way off topic should be removed.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

If we don't like what Lou Castle has to say, just don't respond back. Simples.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I apologise for my part. But I am so frustrated at seeing PetForums do nothing about this infamous troll. If that gets me banned so be it. If I could delete my own account I would. I hate being part of a forum where THAT MAN is allowed to hijack and ruin threads and nothing is done about it. Other forums have banned him. Wonder why?


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Having a read through


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