# Dog Aggressive/Dog Reactive Thread.



## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Hello everyone,

As suggested by EmCHammer, I have decided to open up a Dog Aggressive/Dog Reactive Thread where we can all come to share stories (success stories welcomed too!), support, tips and advice.

Many of us on PetForums have dogs who have problems with other dogs for whatever reason and know only too well how stressful it can be.

It limits where you can go with your dog, can make walks more of a chore than a pleasant experience and take a huge emotional toll on you. It can also be very embarrassing and socially isolating. I'm sure many of us with DA/DR dogs have come home after a bad walk and just cried (I'll be the very first to put my hand up!) and sometimes we just need a few kind words and support from people in the same boat as us (and believe me you're not alone, it's a big boat!)

You need to congratulate yourself for all the hard work you are currently doing and intend to keep doing, many people don't understand how hard it is having a DA/DR dog. 
*And if you are new to the forum and looking for advice, help and support: A big welcome from us all .*

It's not easy admitting there is a problem, but once you've admitted it, you can start sorting it out and tackling it head on.

I must say from personal experience, if it wasn't for PetForums I would have gone mad. The support you get on here is fantastic from those in the same position as you and from others who aren't and just offer kind words of support.

Many people may mistake boisterousness and rough play as aggression and perhaps barking too. Please post up what you think your dogs problems are and one our experience members will be able to help idetinify to the best of their abilities via PF what it _could_ be.

If your dog has suddenly become aggressive "over night" please take them to a vet to see if it is something medical causing their problem (i.e being in pain) or if your problem is very serious, then you would be wise to contact a professional immediately and take precautions to ensure yours and others safety in the mean time.

Great site to find a trainer near you Choosing a Dog Trainer - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK

Please avoid using trainers who use cruel and outdated techniques. For example use of choke chains, prong collars, shock collars etc. Please also be aware of trainers who use The Dominance Theory to train dogs as this can do more harm to a dog than good. The majority of us on PFs strongly disagree with trainers who use The Dominance Theory and say you "have to be a Pack Leader" to your dog.

*We do not want this thread full up on debates on Dominance/Cesar Millan as it just ends up going round in the same old circles and the thread then ends up getting locked which is a shame as this could be a really helpful thread for many people.*

*Positive Re-enforcement* is much a better option and doesnt just "shut your dog up" from re-acting towards the problem, but helps it become something less scary and in the long term positive for your dog. I have been there myself, I shamefully admit I have a used "The Dog Fathers" command collars on my 2 over a year ago, to show them I was "Pack Leader", it did not help one, little bit and just added fear. Now we all enjoying learning and progressing together as a team using PosR.

Whether a current member or a new member, perhaps it would help if you explained your dogs breed, age, sex (neutered/spayed or not), their problem, when it started, what caused it (if you know), how long you've had your dog, what you've been doing so far, successes you've had and what your long term goals are.

I hope The Mods will make this a sticky as it would be a great "meeting place" for dog owners with DA/DR dogs.

If I've forgotten anything important or if something needs to be added, someone please point it out! 

I look forward to seeing all the posts.

xxx


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Well done hon!

When I got my first 2 rescues (greekies) I nearly sank. First time ive ever been close to being depressed. 

4 years on and 2 other dogs, but one of the greekies is still dog reactive and defo can be DA. The other one is very nervous. 

I used to have some awful walks and still do at times. 

I am lucky enough to have friends through the rescue and have made a good friend with lexiehb. They have made walks enjoyable and allowed me to see that it is not only me with a problem. 

My 2 greekies will never be normal, but I just manage the problems. All the time I have this pack they will always be reactive. And as I would never rehome, I just deal with it. 

Often made me depressed when I see pics on threads of off lead dogs having a run on the beach. 

So this thread is a good way to not feel isolated and to see how many of us there are!


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

Thank you for starting this thread 

Dexter is reactive to other dogs when on a lead, to the point where he goes beserk and I am left a quivering wreck 

I've found the 'watch me' command really helps but we still have quite a few traumatic encounters, so look forward to reading what others have to say and picking up some more tips!


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Have you seen the Facebook Group DINOS?


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks *goodvic2!* It's great you have friendly understanding people to walk with, it makes the world of difference (as I'm finding out in the past week and a half) just knowing people arent judging takes a hell of a lot of the pressure off.

*Often made me depressed when I see pics on threads of off lead dogs having a run on the beach.*

I get like that too sometimes when it comes to just being able to let my dogs off lead anywhere. But now I'm coming to realise that the bond I'm making with my dog through all this makes our connection stronger than a lot of people down the park who just let them run riot, so in a REALLY weird way, I'm kind of glad they're on a lead, but obviously not glad they are DR/DA!

There are definitely plenty of us out there! But I'm glad we have this forum to talk and support each other on, it makes the world of difference.

You're more than welcome *TabithaJ*  It can be so embarrassing cant it? Charlie doesnt tend to be the reactive one, just the snappy bugger, but Dottie can cause a right scene! Oh man! I havent used the "Watch me" command before, started teaching it ages ago then forgot about it  At the moment what I'm doing is letting their lead go really slack, watch the dog, then say "C'mon, this way then" in a happy, yeah-so-what-they're-only-dogs-voice, no big deal! Kind of way, but a "Watch me" command with Dottie would be a good one, I'll let you know how it goes!

Next time Dexters having a barmy, just remember Dottie is having one with me too! :lol:

Hi *lucylastic*, no I havent but I will go look now, thanks!

xxx


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Bosley is well not agressive but he is reactive, he will bark and lunge on lead at other dogs, I am fairly lucky in that I can let him off lead, but he plays too rough he gets too over the top and does not read other dogs body language. SL is helping me socialise him.
He has 'attacked' 4 dogs aggressively but the issue with Bosley is like he has no idea what hes doing, its like a red mist comes over he totally loses all sense of reason and then seems to snap out of it and is the best friend of the dog he just attacked.
We've had trainers but they don't understand his unpredictability or how to calm him down.
I'm now looking at behaviourists.
Bosley for the record is a rescue that was 'sold' as been totally dog friendly!!


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Benjie was picked up straying at about 9 months old by the RSPCA in Barnsley, he was then transferred to the RSPCA branch in Chesterfield. My OH and his family went to find a dog that was good with kids (Mark is autistic) and small furries. 

They had a choice between a 3 legged GSD and Benjie (When I'm mad at him I say they should've picked the GSD  ). He was castrated when they saw him and was already having problems with dogs in the kennels. They brought in a trainer when they got him home and she used a water spray on him. Needless to say no help was given and for 5/6 years they had to put up with him lunging and barking at dogs. 

When I met my OH I was a fan of CM. Of course being naive I thought that he was being dominant and "treated" it accordingly. However I did tell them to apply basic training to their walks - sit at the road and sit before the lead came off on the little field they walked him to. 

We introduced him to Sadie and I needn't have been in the garden because she put him where he was supposed to be straight away, she let him know she wasn't comfortable being lunged at and having his head higher over her shoulder. And since then he has so much respect for her. 

When we brought Louie into the picture - he tried to pretend he wasn't staying (or so it seemed) 

Anyway I soon went off CM after finding out his other methods and decided what I knew all along was better for Benjie - I learnt to understand him, learnt what set him off, what exactly caused him to lunge and have these moments where he would just turn into cujo! 

I worked on him meeting other dogs, he seemed fine when they were in the garden, so if we were going out on walks with other dogs they were brought into the garden first. 
However one day last year I got brave, Leanne_77 as well. Flynn was out of action so I decided I would take the boys with Leanne's collies. He barked at them for a while, lunged at Jed (he was muzzled) and whilst Jessie told him off, Jed ignored him. 

Recently I have started getting braver. There is a place near us that is totally safe for me to let Louie off and basically if I recall him every now and then, he can't get into any trouble. So I can focus on Benjie up there. Benjie is alright with other dogs as long as he is offlead and they are OK. Dogs he has never met have run up to him and he has at first backed off and grumbled but then decided they were alright, in fact a lab who he had never met before walked side by side - without him even looking at it.. He meets males, females, all sizes, all ages and temperaments.. 

What started off as me thinking he was dog aggressive has gone from that to Fear reactive, to leash reactivity to just being plain under socialised. He still reacts when on leash but not nearly as bad as he used to, and he has been getting to walk with other dogs more, learn a bit about behaviour and generally is getting loads better. His stature is no longer always dominance, he has learnt to relax around other dogs now, he now greets by sniffing instead of lunging and I am finding walking the boys slightly less of a nightmare. 

He has taught me so much about canine behaviour, all 3 of mine have but I now know more about Benjie. 

It has been a long 3 years because not only because I misunderstood him, but because he didn't understand the clicker and wasn't interested in learning things - even for food. So I couldn't do things like "watch me". 

We're getting there and it proves that an older dog can learn to get over his issues, he may never be able to be unmuzzled around other dogs but at least he can be around them safely and hopefully he will continue to get better.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> Bosley is well not agressive but he is reactive, he will bark and lunge on lead at other dogs, I am fairly lucky in that I can let him off lead, but he plays too rough he gets too over the top and does not read other dogs body language. SL is helping me socialise him.
> He has 'attacked' 4 dogs aggressively but the issue with Bosley is like he has no idea what hes doing, its like a red mist comes over he totally loses all sense of reason and then seems to snap out of it and is the best friend of the dog he just attacked.
> We've had trainers but they don't understand his unpredictability or how to calm him down.
> I'm now looking at behaviourists.
> Bosley for the record is a rescue that was 'sold' as been totally dog friendly!!


Hey LexiLou2,

How frustrating for you to not be able to pinpoint what causes that red mist. Could you get someone to record you walking him and him meeting another dog, then watch it back yourself to see with hindsight if there are any triggers? When everything has settled perhaps its then easier to see what may have set him off. It's so hard when dogs bark and lunge on a lead, Dottie barks, all hackles up, pulls forward and purses her lips to "gggggggrrrrrGGGGRRRRR BOOOOWOOOFWOOOF!" which can then set the other dog off.

xxx



SLB said:


> Benjie was picked up straying at about 9 months old by the RSPCA in Barnsley, he was then transferred to the RSPCA branch in Chesterfield. My OH and his family went to find a dog that was good with kids (Mark is autistic) and small furries.
> 
> They had a choice between a 3 legged GSD and Benjie (When I'm mad at him I say they should've picked the GSD  ). He was castrated when they saw him and was already having problems with dogs in the kennels. They brought in a trainer when they got him home and she used a water spray on him. Needless to say no help was given and for 5/6 years they had to put up with him lunging and barking at dogs.
> 
> ...


Hey SLB,

I think I have gone through the same process as you with my 2. *What started off as me thinking he was dog aggressive has gone from that to Fear reactive, to leash reactivity to just being plain under socialised.* Well one of them! I did socialise Charlie from the get go so I didnt end up with "another Dottie" but puberty thought, "Naaaah...this one can be a bugger too!", but Dottie came from a BYB I can only presume who kept her in a crate in the garden on her own (according to second owner). I used to do the D-theory stuff and was told CM was the way forward, no doubt. Bought his dvds, books, the lot. But as I read into her body language it seemed this was not a dog trying to be "Pack Leader" just a scared dog who doesnt know what to do.

You say Louie doesnt understand the clicker, so do you just use verbal praise when he's being calm and good? I've been too lazy to bring treats out and have just been using verbal praise and my clicker which has been going well. I think Dottie understands the click, she just trots on oblivious!

It sounds like you're definitely making improvements so well done! :thumbup: I've had people say to me my dogs are nearly 2 and 3 and should "be sorted" by now...I wonder what they'd think of an older aggressive dog? 

xxx


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Just thought I'd share my experience with my dogs too, will keep it as brief as possible!

*The dogs and their problems:*

*Dottie 27 mo spayed:* My sister bought her via a website, we are her 3rd home. From what I gather from her 2nd owner (myself and my mum went to collect her) she was kept in a crate in the garden on her own 

Was a very playful puppy. She's now very nervous and unsure meeting new dogs, she doesnt like having her bum sniffed for too long (2 seconds seems the okay time) She will bark at dogs or freeze and stare at them. She air snaps at dogs, but has never bitten another dog, although has been bitten herself.

Barks at strangers if off-lead down the park, but can be distracted on her flexi lead. Is very toy motivated and loves playing fetch for ages.

I try and burn off a lot of her energy at the start of the walk as she doesnt have the privledge of running free (yet :thumbup.

So fetch in one of my "safe zones" off-lead so she's not so pumped up meeting other dogs.

Is okay around groups of dogs once she's realised they're okay, but doesn't want to play/interact and barks if other dogs are playing rough/boisterous.

I thought she didnt like puppies, but wanted to play with a Husky puppy and also played with a Boxer puppy this week too, she also played with my bfs JR puppy whose 6 mo.

*Charlie 19m/o neutered:* I bought Charlie at the age of 4mo. Had been raised with his grandad and a Springer Spaniel puppy. Old owners wanted him gone "asap". Did everything I could to make him "normal" but then his bits came, humped every dog in sight, became very aware of male dogs and snapped at their faces, "seeing them off". He got castrated and the humping stopped, but his male to male/unknown dog reactivity didnt improve/stop.

Will get aggressive over food around unknown dogs, so I've stopped giving out treats with a click now, just verbal praise. Charlie was/is more of a mystery to me as I wasnt sure what his problem was, I did everything "right".

99% likes all bitches, I would say he doesnt like all males but thats not true as I thought it was 

*What I've found has really helped me:*

As you will have read on my previous threads, down my local park, I would say recently, but it has been going on for a while,everyone has been slagging me and my dogs off. Apparently they are dog/human killers, dominant, they should have been sorted out by now, they're "not right"...and a whole bunch of nasty things! It all came to a head last week and I made a vow not to walk with them ever again.

Well a week and a half later and I can not tell you have much better I feel and in return, I'm sure Charlie and Dottie feel.

Instead of worrying about everyone judging me with their "perfect" dogs, I ensure I walk/drive my dogs to different places each day. So far in the past 9 days we have met so many dogs!

This may sound silly, but I've changed the way I dress to walk the dogs now. Instead of wearing my big thick JR fleece with a jumper underneath (adding an extra 3 stone to my body!) I now wear a nice thin hoody underneath a fitted, causal shirt. I know its not a fashion parade, but instantly "shaking off" the old me and that image, I felt empowered and confident just by changing what I wear to even flatter my body!

I remember what my dog trainer told me in our classes back in summer about letting the lead go slack and letting the dog make up its own mind. Oh my god.

I can not tell you how much that has calmed both my dogs down. Dottie met a boxer puppy on her flexi pulling and straining, she snapped at the dog. Once we did a lap of the field, the dog started stalking us over, I let her flexi go loose, let her make up her own mind and within the next minute she was pulling to go play with the pup! 

Charlie today, played with another long legged JR and an old lab bitch. I let the lead go slack, they met with waggy "you seem alright" tails, sussed each other out, I kept the lead slack and because of confidence built up meeting other dogs with a loose lead, just within the past week, I didnt stress, I didnt tense up, I just read his body language and today he had an amazing play with these 2 dogs, even when the dog humped Charlie and then Charlie humped him back and the dog snapped at him, Charlie didnt batter an eyelide, just kept sticking his furry @ss up in the air with that stupid smiley face he gets :lol:

If you had told me 2 weeks ago, Charlie would meet: A GSD, an entire JR, a spaniel pup, a mental off lead lab, an old lab bitch, a group of JRs, a 'stalking' spaniel, clocked a Rottie than caught us by surpise on the pavement and not bark, look at 2 dogs across the road and not bark, not bark back at a JR who was yapping at him via a gate...plus several other situations involving dogs, I would have said P off, that's not Charlie. Or if you told me Dottie played with a large puppy and a Lab x GH and met my mates 3 JRS, I would have scoffed! But its true! Because I am confident in my clothes I am wearing, the environment I am walking (not the park where all the women slag me off and judge me), knowing a loose lead gets rid of so much tension. I just realised today, in the past, each time Charlie has barked, its been when I've yanked his lead going "Come on Charlie!" hes huffed, growled then barked, now, *touchwood and I dont want to jinx myself* he hasnt done it once since I've started relaxing more.

It also helps he doesnt pull on the lead, where as Dottie does, even with head collars, I try and keep the lead slack and she looked at 3 off lead GSDs running about tonight, clocked them, hackles went up a bit, I let the line go loose, said "Come on then" she gave them a quick glance and run back down.

She was then fine with them in the distance.

I must thank those nasty gossips down the park as their meaness has made me feel 10,000,000 times better :thumbup:

This sounds a little daft but try changing your clothes so you feel confident (I am not a confident person at all ), your enviroment (if you can) the people you walk with, if they are negative people, see if you can find some decent, understanding people, not people who tut, slag you off and make your walks horrible and if you go stiff as a board like me  As my dog trainer told me to let the lead hang in a "U" shape, I think our dogs will let us know from up close or far away if they are happy meeting the dog or not.

I was definitely Charlies trigger but now I know what I was doing wrong, I've found out that Charlie is a lot more comfortable meeting other dogs now and in turn I dont tense up and tighten the lead which makes him bark/growl 

Anyway thats a little bit of a low down on my dogs and where we are today. Hope you werent too bored to tears!

xxx


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## JoJo74 (May 29, 2011)

Yay, i love this thread, thanks for starting it Pupcakes 


Duke is four, neutered and we've had him for 10 months now. We are his third set of owners. According to his first owner he was attacked as a pup and she lost confidence in taking him out because he became DA/FA/DR. She never took him out for 18mnths and he became very obese. The original owner put him up for sale because she said he was unhappy. The second owners only had him six months and told us they were letting him go because the lady fell pregnant and as he pulled so much on the lead and she had health problems she couldn't cope. One good thing they did do for him was get him to a normal weight again. We only found out when she emailed me at a later date that she had lost confidence walking/socialising him and i think this had something to do with her letting him go.

Ten months on and there is no way i could part with my boy. He is so soft and soppy with humans. He walks nicely onlead now unless he's very excited and has a few doggy friends. He seems to be all handbags at dawn when he first meets a dog until he knows they won't hurt him. With careful introductions we seem to be getting there. Saying that we still have plenty of bad days and we can't do all the lovely walks i'd like to because he can only be off lead if there are no other dogs around (unless it's one of his pals).

It's great that we have somewhere to come and support eachother.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

You're welcome JoJo74! 

Thanks for your post. I am on my phone at the moment so will give a proper reply tomorrow when I am on my PC as this phone is rubbish for typing up long replies (deletes chunks of text etc)

Glad you're finding some comfort in the thread!

Will reply back properly tomorrow  

xxx


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Why did I only just see this :scared: I have to go bed now.

I'll be back tomorrow and expect a good flood :lol:


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Pupcakes said:


> Hey SLB,
> 
> I think I have gone through the same process as you with my 2. *What started off as me thinking he was dog aggressive has gone from that to Fear reactive, to leash reactivity to just being plain under socialised.* Well one of them! I did socialise Charlie from the get go so I didnt end up with "another Dottie" but puberty thought, "Naaaah...this one can be a bugger too!", but Dottie came from a BYB I can only presume who kept her in a crate in the garden on her own (according to second owner). I used to do the D-theory stuff and was told CM was the way forward, no doubt. Bought his dvds, books, the lot. But as I read into her body language it seemed this was not a dog trying to be "Pack Leader" just a scared dog who doesnt know what to do.
> 
> ...


Benjie (  ) doesn't understand the Clicker, so I use verbal and treats.

It takes time to sort out dog issues, there is no quick fix, it's took me 2 years to get a proper recall from Louie and even sometimes he "forgets" so I have to go out and remind him. And his heelwork is shocking (unless at class) and he's 2 in a number of weeks.

But that is teaching things, issues are different, they are more engrained, especially if they are allowed to continue without being fixed. But it isn't impossible.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

After being attacked by off lead dogs (where they shouldnt have been) and bitten twice Oscar is reactive to other dogs when on lead if they get too close or he doesnt know them well. 
With dogs he knows well there is no problem.

If a dog runs up in the park where dogs should be on lead all the time  I find that dropping his lead early breaks the tension and the greeting goes peacefully..( note if Im caught dropping his lead I also face an 85euro fine)

In the street I try to avoid face to face confrontations and also use the 'watch me' command..

It isnt helpful when numpties stand still with their dog and watch you struggle to get your dog under control or cross the road to talk, or as someone said to me last week 'my trainer has said my dog needs to meet all sorts, even vicious dogs' 

Never mind the dog look out for the owner! I felt like bashing him and his trainer..

For me a clicker isnt possible during walks on lead because Im walking with 3 dogs plus Remy is terrified of it.. So its all down to voice commands 'watch me' 'walk on' and treats when they do well.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

JoJo74 said:


> Yay, i love this thread, thanks for starting it Pupcakes
> 
> Duke is four, neutered and we've had him for 10 months now. We are his third set of owners. According to his first owner he was attacked as a pup and she lost confidence in taking him out because he became DA/FA/DR. She never took him out for 18mnths and he became very obese. The original owner put him up for sale because she said he was unhappy. The second owners only had him six months and told us they were letting him go because the lady fell pregnant and as he pulled so much on the lead and she had health problems she couldn't cope. One good thing they did do for him was get him to a normal weight again. We only found out when she emailed me at a later date that she had lost confidence walking/socialising him and i think this had something to do with her letting him go.
> 
> ...


You're welcome JoJo74!

Thanks for your post. I am on my phone at the moment so will give a proper reply tomorrow when I am on my PC as this phone is rubbish for typing up long replies (deletes chunks of text etc)

Glad you're finding some comfort in the thread!

Will reply back properly tomorrow 

xxx


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Good to see all the stories and replies coming in!

Just woke up for work (07:00 ) so will have a good read and reply when I'm not on my mobile.

Sorry SLB! If I had some sort of brain I'd be lethal! I did mean Benjie. 

xxx


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Pupcakes said:


> Good to see all the stories and replies coming in!
> 
> Just woke up for work (07:00 ) so will have a good read and reply when I'm not on my mobile.
> 
> ...


No worries, I only really mention Louie on forums so easy mistake to make 

Lucky you - I was woken up at half 5 and I don't have to be at work till 8 tonight - animals hey!


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

JoJo74 said:


> Yay, i love this thread, thanks for starting it Pupcakes
> 
> Duke is four, neutered and we've had him for 10 months now. We are his third set of owners. According to his first owner he was attacked as a pup and she lost confidence in taking him out because he became DA/FA/DR. She never took him out for 18mnths and he became very obese. The original owner put him up for sale because she said he was unhappy. The second owners only had him six months and told us they were letting him go because the lady fell pregnant and as he pulled so much on the lead and she had health problems she couldn't cope. One good thing they did do for him was get him to a normal weight again. We only found out when she emailed me at a later date that she had lost confidence walking/socialising him and i think this had something to do with her letting him go.
> 
> ...


A slow reply! Sorry, I am going to keep on the ball with this, but if you read any other threads set up by me, you will know I'm slow to reply 

Hey JoJo74!

You're welcome 

Oh man 18months is a long time to not go out  Especially going through all those changes too. It sounds like he's been passed from pillar to post but found his forever home with you! It sounds like he's a bit like Dottie (except Dottie barks at stangers but is okay after a she realises people are nice and licks their faces off) she watches her bum, goes whale-eyed and can snap at them to back off or she instantly takes a liking to a dog and starts to play bow with them, then tells them to back off!

I had a bad day yesterday, well not a bad day but Dottie exploded on her lead! Just walked Charlie up to a local field and back, he was as good as gold, met/looked at other dogs with no problems! I was so proud and chuffed, even when another JR barked at him (and the lady told him to "Shut up, he wont hurt you!" and proceeded to pick him up although we were on the other side of the road!) he just looked and trotted on. Dottie saw the same dog on the way up to the park and his whole body posture just set her off. She sounded like a demon! She was raring up, all hackles up, barking. SO EMBARRASSING  I didnt know where to look!

She also barked at a big GSD X whilst I picked up her poo and didnt clock him, but not as mental as she went at the JR. Grief....

How do you introduce Duke to other dogs? How is he seeing other dogs on the pavement?

I MADE myself turn on my heels and go up to the park where I knew there would be other dogs and socialise her (felt so embarrassed and stressed, was heading down the quiet road to take her to the old empty quarry for a run) met quite a few dogs up there, including a sweet little JR who also has issues with other dogs (could have fooled me!) a spaniel, a little yappy Terrier type pup, very cute, about 4 labs and a SS. Had a sniff, tried to play with the JR but was calm around the dogs off lead, but went mental at the SS on lead when he first walked around the park. I hurt my hand on the flexi trying to get her attention and that wound me up even more  I just thought "FGS! GO ON DO WHAT YOU WANT! IM ONLY TRYING TO HELP YOU! GO ON, GET LOST!" obviously I wouldnt let her off or want her to "do as she pleases" but sometimes I get so stressed with her I cant help it 

Charlie has done AMAZINGLY in the past 2 weeks. It feels like I'm walking a new dog, we've not had one growl or anything, just sniffs and him playing with new dogs, even entire males! And now I cant but help compare Dottie to him which I'm trying not to. I look forward to hitting more goals with Charlie but Dottie is still such a wild case, I'm struggling with her. But we did have some good moments included those mentioned above. She didnt bark back at a (different) JR that was barking at her behind a gate just looked and walked on. I just try not to "dread" our walks together but its so hard atm, but I just think she'll take a lot longer to build up as Charlie was "normal" not too long ago and I think I made him 1000x worse with my reactions, but Dottie had a bad start right from the beginning so never had any social skills.

xxx


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

dorrit said:


> After being attacked by off lead dogs (where they shouldnt have been) and bitten twice Oscar is reactive to other dogs when on lead if they get too close or he doesnt know them well.
> With dogs he knows well there is no problem.
> 
> If a dog runs up in the park where dogs should be on lead all the time * I find that dropping his lead early breaks the tension and the greeting goes peacefully..*( note if Im caught dropping his lead I also face an 85euro fine)
> ...


Hey Dorrit! Thanks for your reply.

Oh man, what a crap situation to be in all because of someone else's stupidity  But I see the sense in dropping the lead, thats what I've been doing with Charlie (well just letting it go SUPER slack) and *touchwood* so far, I havent even had a growl from him just a curios "Hello, you look alright face" and waggy tail to go with it.

Oh man, I get that with Dottie, it's like fgs! I'm trying to get some peace back here and you're just standing and watching me! Dottie went mental yesterday, twice, so embarrassing, I wanted to boot her up the a$$  Obviously I didnt but was so stressed by it, had to calm down and make myself go to the park and try and get some good experiences in there too.

Think maybe I over did it though, so I need to do smaller doses of social time with Dottie but Charlie thrives in it.

How do your other dogs re-act to Oscars reactivity or do you mean you walk with a friend and their 2 dogs? (Sorry I didnt follow that part  )

Dottie sets Charlie off, plus they are at very different stages so they need to be walked seperatley as my burning thighs and aching feet remind me! 

xxx


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I was wondering if sled dog hotel might do a general post for this thread. She gives super advice. Something generic so that new people can gain a bit of knowledge/insight into why their dog behaves like it ..

I'll pm her x


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I was wondering if sled dog hotel might do a general post for this thread. She gives super advice. Something generic so that new people can gain a bit of knowledge/insight into why their dog behaves like it ..
> 
> I'll pm her x


I shall do my best!!

Many people wonder sometimes why a dog can be OK off lead with other dogs, yet when on lead and being walked with their owners, can be totally different, barking lunging and growling. Many people are ready to just assume the dog is agressive in the classic sense that we all think of. However a lot of the behaviour can be from uncertainty and even fear, I believe Leashed for Life said that around 80% maybe slightly more of behaviours orginate from fear and uncertainty.

The reason that dogs often act like this on lead, is that they feel trapped or at a disadvantage. When they are free running and encounter other dogs, they have a choice, if they are unsure of the other dog/s or situation they can take flight run away, which naturally would be a lot of dogs first choice.
They also have the space to take a step back, weigh up the situation, and if they think there may be a problem, defuse the situation with avoidance, avoiding a potential confrontation, they will do this with body signalling and posture you may see dog with heads low, bodies low, some will even roll on their backs and show their tums with a leg raised some dogs will even submissively urinate if unsure of a situation. Off lead they have the space and time to communicate, to defuse any possible confrontation and then invite play with a play bow or similar, this you will often see too down low front legs bent at the elbows bottoms in the ear, maybe being vocal at the same time.

On lead though they cant do any of this, if the dog is coming towards them,
or also on a lead and going to pass at close quarters or worse still runs up off lead they are stuck there on the end of a lead with no time and space to do some of the things above. The only real option is to bark growl lunge show teeth and hope they are scary looking enough for the dog to back off and go away. The problem with this is that you will either remove them, or the other owner will remove their dog. To your dog the ploy has worked its got him out the situation he was uncertain about, what works is repeated, it becomes a learned behaviour thats way everytime after your dog is in the same situation he exhibits the same behaviour. What also happens often too, is that the owner dreads it. They see another dog, start to wind in the lead get tense and fearful. Their sudden behaviour the dog also picks up on, making him or her even more sure that somethings up and there is a problem so immediately he is on the defence. So the whole thing just becomes a vicious circle.

This is often why you may have a problem with a dog on lead and why when he is off lead he is just fine. Obviously you cant say in every case the behaviour will be out of fear and insecurity, it likely isnt the reason all the time, some dogs may well just want to challenge and fight for some reason, often you see it with male dogs some breeds can be known for same sex aggression. Some dogs may be poorly socialised and dont know how to communicate with other dogs. Thats why it is so important never to assume,
If you are stuck have tried things and the problem isnt getting better always seek professional help, in the form of a Behaviourist or a trainer. Finding the reason why a dog is doing something it is then easier to sort out as you know what is the best approach to modify the behaviour. There are things that you can do yourself with instuction that depending how bad the dog is can make things better, but if you are inexperienced try things and they dont get better, then a proffesional can save lots of worry and time.

For a Behaviourist in Your area: CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers

For a Trainer or training classes in your area Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK

Hope this insight into just some of the reasons why dogs can be what appears to be dog aggressive will be helpful and explain that often the reasons behind it can be a lot more complex then first thought.


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## JoJo74 (May 29, 2011)

Pupcakes said:


> A slow reply! Sorry, I am going to keep on the ball with this, but if you read any other threads set up by me, you will know I'm slow to reply
> 
> Hey JoJo74!
> 
> ...


It sounds like Charlie and Dottie are doing well. You say that you are struggling with Dottie but just try and focus on all the positives that she has achieved. It may seem like small steps but they are steps in the right direction 

Duke will often bark at other dogs on pavement walks and it's rare i can walk past a dog on the same side of the road without incident. We did meet a very cute pup the other day and was unable to cross the road so because the pup was tiny i tried to make Duke sit to let them pass. Duke did bark at the pup but it was a "i want to play " and his tail was wagging happily.
I can normally walk past a dog on the other side of the road as long as i am the right side of him muttering "it's ok, it's ok" 

Although i know it's better to meet new dogs on neutral territory this doesn't seem to apply to Duke. He seems more relaxed meeting dogs in the back garden and then going for a walk. I'd say he's 60/40 with dogs he meets. He use to hate having his bum sniffed too but this depends on the size of the dog! If a dog runs up to us while Duke is onlead i find it better if he is close to me, i can get him to sit and they can both have a gentle sniff. If his body language changes i can step in and body block.

You are right about keeping the lead slack so the dog doesn't feel the tension down the line, i do try to remember this, lol.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Pupcakes said:


> Hey Dorrit! Thanks for your reply.
> 
> Oh man, what a crap situation to be in all because of someone else's stupidity  But I see the sense in dropping the lead, thats what I've been doing with Charlie (well just letting it go SUPER slack) and *touchwood* so far, I havent even had a growl from him just a curios "Hello, you look alright face" and waggy tail to go with it.
> 
> ...


Hi, to answer your questions ... 
I have 3 dogs Oscar BC Benny Beagle and Remy JRT cross , Benny hardly ever reacts to other dogs but if Oscar barks Remy will join in ..
We used to walk with a friend and her two JRT's but although our 5 all got on well her JRT's would bark at everything and set my lot off..
Shes now moved so we dont walk together anymore and I find that that really does help.

There a guy in the park who has his dog off lead all the time and it charges us snapping and growling everytime it sees us...I put my back out last year trying to hang on to 3 barking lunging dogs (even Benny joins in when this dog attacks) thats when I had to drop the leads and I discovered that when I did that they just stood their ground..
Strangely enough the other dog isnt so keen to charge at them if she can see that they are loose???

I do try to talk to as many people as I can and explain that its a fear reaction Oscar wants to scare other dogs away so he cant get hurt and I ask if they would just walk past and ignore it if he kicks off.. 
Some are really nice and understand and others are just total muppets but thats life I suppose..


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

As you may know Flynn is dog reactive. I believe he is fear aggressive as he gets on well with the dogs he actually has met and never reacts if they are behind a gate, at a window or in a car where they can't get to him. 

I hope I'm not alone in sometimes just wanting to give up and not go out at all, sense prevails and I know I can't do this to my boy so I have to sometimes force myself to go out - full of fear and trepidation. Afraid I can't "live in the moment" and def do dwell on the bad walks, even sometimes anticipating what doesn't even happen. :crazy: I know Flynns problem is me and my fear of a fight and I feel ashamed that I cannot overcome it and be sensible but have been trying now for nearly four years and just as we get there something happens and puts ME way back again. I have even considered hypnotherapy to help me let go of the past when I had a dog killed by another, as I think this is where my problem lies and I have frightened Flynn with my own fear.

I try to think "what if there is a fight? they are dogs and can get over it - why worry so much it's what animals do sometimes!" but I think it will have such a bad effect on Flynn that I don't want him to experience anything like that, let alone the effect it will have on me.

We have worked wonders with him focussing on me and then moved on to the LAT game but then someone upsets the apple cart with their dog reactive dog, then an off lead dog and we're back to square one and it's so disheartening and exhausting. I sometimes wish I could send Flynn away for a couple of months for him to be socialised with someone who isn't scared to face dogs with him, think how lovely it would be if I knew he could see dogs and not react cos when he does he's so blinking strong and hard to hold back. Because of that I avoid dogs which makes it worse and only because of his strength, I don't do it with Kali who is 48kgs and if she ever reacts I just tell her off, because I am confident I can handle her.

Anyone else think they are the reason their dog is the way it is, is because of their fear or am I just crackers? lol!"


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## leannelatty (Aug 14, 2009)

Im gonna sound like an ignoramus  but can someone tell me the difference between DA/FA/DR?

Im trying really hard to get over my own issues (after being attacked and losing my dog due to this in Nov) with my black Lab puppy Basil but he very rarely meets new dogs and if he does he is ALWAYS on lead. He definately just wants to play but he goes nuts when we go near any other doggies at puppy class and just wants to play fight with them. The only experience he has had with playing off lead with another dog is when we pop into our friends house round the corner and they have an older crossbreed and they go off into the secure garden. Basil just jumps all over the poor boy and although he gets put into his place when he is too rough he just goes back for more 

I really want him to learn some manners when it comes to meeting other dogs and i think that the reason he gets so excited is because he doesnt see them very often as he is mainly road walked. Is the only answer to this for him to meet more dogs?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

leannelatty said:


> Im gonna sound like an ignoramus  but can someone tell me the difference between DA/FA/DR?
> 
> Im trying really hard to get over my own issues (after being attacked and losing my dog due to this in Nov) with my black Lab puppy Basil but he very rarely meets new dogs and if he does he is ALWAYS on lead. He definately just wants to play but he goes nuts when we go near any other doggies at puppy class and just wants to play fight with them. The only experience he has had with playing off lead with another dog is when we pop into our friends house round the corner and they have an older crossbreed and they go off into the secure garden. Basil just jumps all over the poor boy and although he gets put into his place when he is too rough he just goes back for more
> 
> I really want him to learn some manners when it comes to meeting other dogs and i think that the reason he gets so excited is because he doesnt see them very often as he is mainly road walked. Is the only answer to this for him to meet more dogs?


DA - is dog aggressive. Meaning that a dog can display aggressive behaviours when they encounter another dog

FA - I guess is fear aggressive. The dog feels scared and so displays aggressive behaviours. Very closely linked with DA and is one of the biggest causes of DA

DR - is dog reactive. This is usually because the dog is poorly socialised and doesn't know how to behave around, or when they see dogs. Some dogs will pull like a train to get to the dog, some will bark, whine, lunge and some look like they warn to kill the other dog. Most of it is down to excitement, poor socialisation and unsurety.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

leannelatty said:


> Im gonna sound like an ignoramus  but can someone tell me the difference between DA/FA/DR?
> 
> Im trying really hard to get over my own issues (after being attacked and losing my dog due to this in Nov) with my black Lab puppy Basil but he very rarely meets new dogs and if he does he is ALWAYS on lead. He definately just wants to play but he goes nuts when we go near any other doggies at puppy class and just wants to play fight with them. The only experience he has had with playing off lead with another dog is when we pop into our friends house round the corner and they have an older crossbreed and they go off into the secure garden. Basil just jumps all over the poor boy and although he gets put into his place when he is too rough he just goes back for more
> 
> I really want him to learn some manners when it comes to meeting other dogs and i think that the reason he gets so excited is because he doesnt see them very often as he is mainly road walked. Is the only answer to this for him to meet more dogs?


How old is your puppy?

The reason for his excitement is because he doesn't see many other dogs or get a Chance to socialise. Dogs are social animals and so like to be with other dogs. Not necessarily having to live with one, but out on walks.

The more you keep your dog away and don't socialise him then the intensity can get far worse. This can then lead to DA because the dog becomes unsure or fearful.

Why do u only walk on the streets?


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## leannelatty (Aug 14, 2009)

The reason i only road walk him is bcos there is only 1 park within my local area and that is where me and my spaniel were attacked in november and after witnessing this i cannot face taking the new puppy over there knowing that the dog is still around. this is also my problem with him (and i!) meeting new dogs. cant get over the fear that it is going to happen again and after seeing my beloved spaniel with her insides on the outside hanging out of 2 large punture holes i think ive earnt the right to feel this way


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> The more you keep your dog away and don't socialise him then the intensity can get far worse. This can then lead to DA because the dog becomes unsure or fearful.
> QUOTE]
> 
> There is a school of training here in Friesland that Ive heard people quote several times ..
> ...


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

leannelatty said:


> The reason i only road walk him is bcos there is only 1 park within my local area and that is where me and my spaniel were attacked in november and after witnessing this i cannot face taking the new puppy over there knowing that the dog is still around. this is also my problem with him (and i!) meeting new dogs. cant get over the fear that it is going to happen again and after seeing my beloved spaniel with her insides on the outside hanging out of 2 large punture holes i think ive earnt the right to feel this way


You have my every sympathy. Seeing a dog fight was one of the worst things I have seen so I can understand how you feel.

But you have gone and brought a highly sociable, excitable breed.

I understand why you feel as you do, but you would have been better with an older, adult rescue who would be happy to street walk.

I know you got upset with me last time (at least I think it was you) but if you can't get over this fear then you are going to pass this on to your pup and possibly create a huge problem.

Personally I do not think you are mentally strong enough at the moment to put this to one side and to do what's best for the pup. Your post says how you feel. ..

As far as I'm concerned you have a number of choices:

1). Continue as you are and have your dog develop behavioural problems
2). Overcome your fear and start to socialise him
3). Rehome him

It is no fun having a fully grown DA dog.

Once again I fully sympathise with what happened to your other dog and I think that if I was in the same boat then I would be the same. But I would never have brought a new puppy ..


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I think its important when looking at aggression to forget about all the numerous names for different types of aggression- territorial, dominant, possessive etc., etc., at least for the beginning stages.

For me, there's two main types of aggression:
- *Reflexive/respondent* (a reflexive reaction, usually to something aversive, such as re-directed aggression)

- *Operant/Instrumental* (a learned reaction to a threat)

Also, it's good to distinguish between simply *offensive* and *defensive* aggressive behaviour. This doesn't imply anything about the dog's feelings or emotional state necessarily, only the behaviours you see.

If a dog is charging, straining at the leash etc., it is offensive. However, if the dog is trying to avoid and is demonstrating signs of escape/avoidance behaviour, and will aggress when pushed, then this would be classed as defensive.

These terms can practically cover all the different types of aggressive behaviour in most eliciting contexts and helps to keep our emotions out of the case!

Another thing to remember about aggressive behaviour is that is very rarely a positive reinforcer (not counting predatory behaviours). Dogs use aggressive behaviour to escape or avoid dangerous situations. The myth in dog training that dogs use aggressive behaviour because they are too confident, high in status yadda, yadda, yadda, makes extremely little sense- I would argue zero sense. Aggressive behaviour takes up time and energy, so dogs are not going to do it if they don't perceive a threat to their own welfare. This leads many to incline that aggression comes from anxiety and fear, and I would agree with this.

A good book, but a dry read, is _Aggressive Behaviour in Dogs_ by James O'Heare.


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## sammiii (Mar 17, 2012)

What a good thread! Reading through it has made me realise that kezzie most probably is quite under socialised, and would probably be fine running free, but she still lays down and 'stalks' other dogs, then once at the end of the lead she lunges ! For me, not knowing how the other owners will react is making me reluctant to let other dogs come too close!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

sammiii said:


> What a good thread! Reading through it has made me realise that kezzie most probably is quite under socialised, and would probably be fine running free, but she still lays down and 'stalks' other dogs, then once at the end of the lead she lunges ! For me, not knowing how the other owners will react is making me reluctant to let other dogs come too close!


You could always muzzle train your dog. Then you could see..


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## sammiii (Mar 17, 2012)

Muzzle train? Being thicko here, do u mean a proper full muzzle or the fabric ones that just go over nose? I'm trying to do long line to give her more freedom and shes on a harness, so would a muzzle work? I'm thinking about one of he halti head collars as she really pulls when dogs are near and has nipped my leg twice trying to get free! Anyone done this with their da/dr pooch?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

sammiii said:


> Muzzle train? Being thicko here, do u mean a proper full muzzle or the fabric ones that just go over nose? I'm trying to do long line to give her more freedom and shes on a harness, so would a muzzle work? I'm thinking about one of he halti head collars as she really pulls when dogs are near and has nipped my leg twice trying to get free! Anyone done this with their da/dr pooch?


I meant if you wanted to see what she was like OFF lead, around other dogs then this is an option.

Obviously you have to be sure she won't run off and that she will not get attacked.

It was something which I did with one of my rescues.

The trouble is when you are at the end of the lead, your worry/concern can effect your dogs behaviour. If the dog is off lead then she can display normal behaviours. You never know, she may be absolutely find and never need the muzzle or a lead again.

But you will also see if she displays any aggressive behaviours.

If you do it, then it may be worth putting her on a long line.

Also muzzle training a dog takes commitment and hard work. It is not natural for a dog and so should be introduced slowly and carefully.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

sammiii said:


> Muzzle train? Being thicko here, do u mean a proper full muzzle or the fabric ones that just go over nose? I'm trying to do long line to give her more freedom and shes on a harness, so would a muzzle work? I'm thinking about one of he halti head collars as she really pulls when dogs are near and has nipped my leg twice trying to get free! Anyone done this with their da/dr pooch?


A halti is good for street walking. Would defo not recommend it in an area with off lead dogs.

Oh and I meant a full muzzle Like this ...

Dog Muzzle Baskerville Ultra Size 5


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## leannelatty (Aug 14, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> You have my every sympathy. Seeing a dog fight was one of the worst things I have seen so I can understand how you feel.
> 
> But you have gone and brought a highly sociable, excitable breed.
> 
> ...


I think you have mixed me up with someone different as i totally understand that my pup needs socialising and that i am at fault for not doing so! I also agree that i probably wasnt ready to get a new pooch in my life but my OH (out of the kindeness of his heart) saw how heartbroken i was and thought he was doing the right thing bringing home this little bundle of fun.

I definately do not intend to have a DA dog! I am starting to feel more calm and relaxed when i am walking him and the more positive walks i have with nothing happening (albeit on road walks) the more my confidence grows about it. Also the area i live in isnt the best for having dogs ie many little boys thinking that they know it all and getting dogs they cant or will not control and as a result of what happened to my little girl we are moving in 6 weeks out to the country and an area that has many more dog friendly doggies so i am hoping that, again, this will add to my confidence. I have no intention of rehoming him either and therefore i have to choose either of the 1st 2 options you have stated! I am doing my best with him and i want him to be fulfilled, happy and safe but i dont think i will ever fully get over seeing what i did but i have no intention of passing this onto my little boy. I WILL NOT LET WHAT THIS MAN DID TO MY LITTLE GIRL BEAT ME!

ps sorry if you thought i got upset with you in previous posts. Not my intention at all as i value all opinions but it is a touchy, sensitive subject as im sure you totally understand


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Just re-reading all posts properly, will reply to all of them!

Thanks for all your replies. 

Please bear with my slow brain!

xxx


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

See Lexi can be dog reactive but I know it what siuations and I know how to control it, Lexi can be funny when on lead and in enclosed spaces so if shes on lead and a group of dogs surround her she gets growly or if in a pub or a narrow alley way and there is an in your face dog and she feels cornered she can be funny, in these situations I just do not allow her to greet a dog for long enough to feel threatened for example I don't tighten her lead and I never stop moving forward it literally is walk walk sniff good girl walk walk.

Bosley on the other hand is not aggressive he is poorly socialised has no manners does not understand dog body language and will bark rear up growl and lunge on a lead so looks like a raving lunatic but will play with ither dogs, but even then is too rough and full on, he needs manners and lots of them and its a long hard battle.


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

opie definetly picks up on my tension when it comes to meeting other dogs on leads. a few months ago i would have labelled him dog reactive but i now realise he's not at all. it's me. now 99% of the time i'm fine and he's brilliant when he meets them but there is still the odd occasion when we meet other dogs that i tense up and then he starts lunging. on the rare occasion my oh walks with us, he will always hand opie over to me if we see any other dogs approaching. off lead, we never have any problems. all he wants to do is play with any dog that he sees.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I don't think anyone can truly understand how you feel leanelatty because they haven't been in your situation. They can offer sympathies and shock at what happened to your innocent little dog but they will never really know how an incident like you have been through affects the fear you then have with another small dog, in your case a vulnerable pup. You can still have a sociable dog if he's street walked just like any pat or guide dog, they don't romp around parks goining banana's with other dogs. My Kali is sociable but as she is a Mal has never been off lead with a dog, she just sniffs politely and moves on. There are plenty of dogs who cannot go off lead that are fine with dogs and re homing is out of the question and very OTT!

We all suffer bereavement when we lose our dogs but you have suffered bereavement, trauma and severe shock it's no wonder you can't face the park after such a short time. If your girl was insured you could have had counselling and probably need that still to help you find a way to cope with what you have been through. If you lost a human friend or family member so tragically you wouldn't be expected to cope so soon, so don't expect to do so in losing your beloved dog in such a traumatic way.

It's hard letting go of our loved ones but when our last memory is so horrific and fresh in our minds it becomes almost impossible to move on and four months is far too soon for you to do that. Take your dog training, forget the park for now as he gets older go for group training sessions and take him through his KC good citizen award training. Keep him occupied and around dogs in a controlled environment and don't force yourself into doing things you can't really handle yet as it could make you feel even worse. 

No one can understand fully what you have been through and four months is way too soon for you to expect to be able to feel confident around dogs. You'll get there eventually but patience in this case truly is a virtue.


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## leannelatty (Aug 14, 2009)

Malmum said:


> I don't think anyone can truly understand how you feel leanelatty because they haven't been in your situation. They can offer sympathies and shock at what happened to your innocent little dog but they will never really know how an incident like you have been through affects the fear you then have with another small dog, in your case a vulnerable pup. You can still have a sociable dog if he's street walked just like any pat or guide dog, they don't romp around parks goining banana's with other dogs. My Kali is sociable but as she is a Mal has never been off lead with a dog, she just sniffs politely and moves on. There are plenty of dogs who cannot go off lead that are fine with dogs and re homing is out of the question and very OTT!
> 
> We all suffer bereavement when we lose our dogs but you have suffered bereavement, trauma and severe shock it's no wonder you can't face the park after such a short time. If your girl was insured you could have had counselling and probably need that still to help you find a way to cope with what you have been through. If you lost a human friend or family member so tragically you wouldn't be expected to cope so soon, so don't expect to do so in losing your beloved dog in such a traumatic way.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your words of wisdom, it has given me hope that i can still have a happy balanced dog despite the issues i have of my own. I am investing in a long line for when i move and i am hoping that being in a fresh new area where i could walk for hours without seeing anyone will give me some new confidence. You are right about me losing her in such a traumatic way and my good memories of her seemed to have been overshadowed by what happened and i am having a really hard time recalling the happy memories. I was going to post some pictures of her on here after what happened so people could understand just how bad it was but i dont want to upset or distress anyone with them! I am just trying to take each day as it comes and deal with things in my own time - and i agree that rehoming is def OTT!!

Thank you again Malmum, your advice is truly valuable to me


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Loving all you replies and stories, thanks for keeping the thread going.

Thank you Sled dog hotel for your great post regarding aggression. I will edit my original post and place in there as well and thank you too Rottiefan for your description on aggression in the thread, I shall post that up on the opening thread too 

Heya JoJo74, Aaaaaw thank you. Bless Duke wanting to play with the puppy. Charlie gives a little "huff/squeaky" bark when he's more curious than scared. Is that what Dukes bark sounds like?

*I can normally walk past a dog on the other side of the road as long as i am the right side of him muttering "it's ok, it's ok"*

Haha! Thats me 

No way, Dottie and Charlie would go nutty if they met a dog in "their" garden. Well Dottie would. That's great as you can have doggy chums around and they can play safely within your garden. How did you get over Duke hating having his bum sniffed? Dottie doesnt even like Charlie sniffing her bum!

Hey Dorrit!

Sorry to hear you put your back out  Although I'm glad the dogs were able to sort themselves out safely and this dog thinks twice before charging over. It's such a shame that it had to resort to that though, some people dont care for other people and their dogs.

*I do try to talk to as many people as I can and explain that its a fear reaction Oscar wants to scare other dogs away so he cant get hurt and I ask if they would just walk past and ignore it if he kicks off.. 
Some are really nice and understand and others are just total muppets but thats life I suppose..*

I just tend to meet the muppets! Although some people are nice and sympathise which helps me relax.

I would like to meet up with more people with "troubled" dogs and walk with them, but that wouldnt be good for the dogs 

Do your other dogs confidence rub off on Oscar?

Hey Malmum!

Glad to see you on this thread as well!

*I hope I'm not alone in sometimes just wanting to give up and not go out at all, sense prevails and I know I can't do this to my boy so I have to sometimes force myself to go out - full of fear and trepidation.*

*Raises hand!* Oh man, definitely. More so with Dottie, you do amazing controlling Flynn being such a big dog, god I struggle with Dottie at 10kgs!
What do you use to walk him on? Sorry youve probably already said 1000 times, its just, it seems such a joke, I struggle to walk Dottie and the lead is always so tense (she wears a Canny Collar but pulls like a mother trucker still) I'm working on a "Steady" command and then clicking when the leads loose.

But my god, I get so mad sometimes 

*I know Flynns problem is me and my fear of a fight and I feel ashamed that I cannot overcome it and be sensible but have been trying now for nearly four years and just as we get there something happens and puts ME way back again.*

Dont feel ashamed! You are doing a great job with Flynn. If I was to give Flynn to any of the people down by me, he'd be gone within the day, they wouldnt be able to cope. It takes a real strong person to go and feel so battered day after day, espcially when they explode at the end of the lead and other people look at you like "Grief...:frown2:"

I'm so sorry you had dog killed by another dog  Jesus, I cant even begin to imagine how awful that was. No wonder you get even more worried about Flynn.

*...it's so disheartening and exhausting. I sometimes wish I could send Flynn away for a couple of months for him to be socialised with someone who isn't scared to face dogs with him...*

I often think that too, just take the pressure off my mind and let someone who isnt so emotionally attached deal with Dottie, but then I'd feel awful if I sent her away and I bet you would miss Flynn too! Although we wouldnt miss the stress and constant worrying 

How did you get Flynn to focus on you? Was it with the Watch me game? I definitley need Dottie more focused on me, we seem to be on 2 separate planets walking, she doesnt look to me for what to do next where Charlie looks at me like "What next?"

*Anyone else think they are the reason their dog is the way it is, is because of their fear or am I just crackers?*

Youre not crackers! I definitely dont help Dottie with the constant tight lead and with drawn breath like "Oh god...please lets get up the field with no barking" I just think if I could get the lead loose I would reduce both our stress and tension by 50% at least!

Hey LeanneLatty,

As I said to Malmum, I am so sorry you had to go through something as awful as losing your dog to another dog. No wonder your confidence is knocked.
I'm so glad your moving to the country shortly as you will be able to let your dog socialise with more dogs and starting making some canine connections!

Plus you can also leave behind the awful memories of where you are currently living  Think of all the lovely long walks you can take him on. Perhaps you could put him on a long line when he's meeting another dog (if hes not on lead already and if you feel the other dog is okay) so in case, god forbid, anything does happen you have the peace of mind of being able to "reel him in".

Is there anyone on here that could meet up with you with a friendly dog you good interact with?

I'm glad your confidence is building with each walk! I look forward to seeing all the photos of you guys in your new home in the country and all the doggie pals you make. You must post up photos and stories. Promise? 

Hey Sammiii, welcome to PF and the thread! Glad you have been able to identify what you think is your dogs "problem". Charlie used to stalk dogs, lie down flat until the dog approached then spring up and make the other dog feel very comfortable.

*For me, not knowing how the other owners will react is making me reluctant to let other dogs come too close!*

Yeah, I'm exactly the same! Then I get anxious, tense, worried and start making problems that weren't even there. Especially when I go out of my way to take my dogs to one side or an area when dogs should be on lead and dogs charge over. But *touchwood* since I've let the lead slack, I've not even had a grumble.

Hey LexiLou2,

I like the fact you dont let Lexi be around dogs long enough for anything to kick off if shes not happy.

for example I don't tighten her lead and I never stop moving forward it literally is walk walk sniff good girl walk walk.

I will start trying that with Dottie, I think I leave it too long and then thats when she gets uncomfortable and growls.

*Bosley on the other hand is not aggressive he is poorly socialised has no manners does not understand dog body language and will bark rear up growl and lunge on a lead so looks like a raving lunatic but will play with ither dogs, but even then is too rough and full on, he needs manners and lots of them and its a long hard battle.*

Bosley sounds a lot like Dottie. Would you say Lexi is actually aggressive? Or is it just a handbags at dawn, all teeth and noise experience?

Bosley and Lexi sound a lot like Dottie, do you walk them together or separately because of their issues?

Hey TattooGirl73,

Totally agree with your statement here.

*a few months ago i would have labelled him dog reactive but i now realise he's not at all. it's me. now 99%*

Very well said! If I just plodded along as usual, I'm sure Dottie would be a lot better, but now I've realised I'm the reactive one, perhaps the trigger (more than likely the trigger )

It's great that off lead he is fine and he can have a play and be comfortable, I have often thought about letting Dottie off when other dogs are about as I can send bad tension down the line, but then she may bark at another dog and start a ruckus, so for now I keep her on the flexi.

Thanks for all your replies!

Keep them coming 

xxx

_Ps Sorry for any typos/mistakes, please correct me, when I go off on a long post I tend to make lots of mistakes!_


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Lexi is handbags at dawn, she is all noise teeth and panic, she has never actually got hold of a dog, but been a staffie all noise oviously means she is n evil killer dog. Lexi is fear reactive she was totally fine with all dogs always submissive but happy to greet, she ws ok after the fisrt time she was 'attacked on lead' she got a bit iffy after the second time (different dog) of being attacked on lead, by the third time it was just too much and now she gets nervous. Of the three 'attacks' two were literally pinning her to the ground by her throat, on attack (the second) was a huge male lab and he left puncture holes in her neck, thats when things got a it iffy.

Bosley, well he's just insane. 

I'm lucky I can walk them together and hubby comes with me, he'sin charge of Lexi as she is easy to manage, you just never stop moving forward always keep walking if there is another dog a quick hello to the owner and keep chatting to Lexi reassure her tell her good girl quick sniff and move on and she does not react.
I get Bosley and I spend my walks dodging people :crying:


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## leannelatty (Aug 14, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> Hey LeanneLatty,
> 
> As I said to Malmum, I am so sorry you had to go through something as awful as losing your dog to another dog. No wonder your confidence is knocked.
> I'm so glad your moving to the country shortly as you will be able to let your dog socialise with more dogs and starting making some canine connections!
> ...


I am hoping that the memories will be left behind but dont think i will EVER stop being more wary. I have looked at the PF Map but it doesnt seem that anyone is near me on the essex/london border - shame really 

I promise i will put up some pics of Basil in his new home and running around terrorising the countryside (leaves probably!)

If anyone knows anyone that lives near Chigwell (where i live now) or Danbury (where i am moving to) then please let me know

Again want to thank you all for your understanding and non-judgemental words of encouragement. I will get there eventually


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I walk Flynn on a dogmatic head collar which is attached to his harness just in case he reacts to a dog and it comes off - really don't think it can though as they have a good strong buckle. Always best to be safe though.

I actually don't think Flynn is aggressive at all, just scared and poorly socialised which I put down to time out for his ops and me always being scared something may happen. Silly as it sounds my biggest fear is a latch on fight, I have this notion a dog will latch on to a back leg and dislocate the hip again. All in my crazy head I think but then what happens last week - blinking off lead Staff we just managed to avoid and get back in our garden - so just how crazy is that idea? 
Flynn focus's well with sweets, dolly mixtures are his faves but he's off of them now and onto doggy treats instead cos I know he really shouldn't have sweets!


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## JoJo74 (May 29, 2011)

*Heya JoJo74, Aaaaaw thank you. Bless Duke wanting to play with the puppy. Charlie gives a little "huff/squeaky" bark when he's more curious than scared. Is that what Dukes bark sounds like?

I can normally walk past a dog on the other side of the road as long as i am the right side of him muttering "it's ok, it's ok"

Haha! Thats me

No way, Dottie and Charlie would go nutty if they met a dog in "their" garden. Well Dottie would. That's great as you can have doggy chums around and they can play safely within your garden. How did you get over Duke hating having his bum sniffed? Dottie doesnt even like Charlie sniffing her bum!*

Yeah, his bark is less "manly" when it's an excited bark! I don't know that i did anything as such to get him over the bottom sniffing. He will tolerate it from dogs he likes or knows. It's probably more of a case of he spends more time on lead and has more careful introductions now.

How did you introduce Dottie and Charlie to each other? I know you've probably already said but did they get on ok from the off?


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## lily74 (Jan 13, 2012)

Hi,

Just read your thread, and I cannot bgin to imagine how stressful it is for you to have these problems with your dogs.

As explained in another post my sister and her O/h have dog aggressive JR's.

My sister's dog is a JR x chi and he was okay until he was about 18 months old and he started barking and lunging at other dogs and then oneda he bit and drew blood on a dogs soft nose.

He is now muzzled around other dogs and stays on a flexi lead.

The other JR (a girl) is nervous and doesn't like other dogs, we feel some of her aggression has rubbed off on the younger one. She won't bite though just lunge and threaten.

What we have been doing is desensitizing the younger one, let him meet as many dogs as possible on a walk, and not let tension show on the lead when a dog approches as long as they have a muzzle on they can't do damage and alot of owners are okay for him to approach if we explain the situation.

Also terriers feel the nee to protect their owners so making yourself the pack leader is very important. I noticed both my sister and her O/h allow the dogs in their bed which they have now stopped.

My sister has been very upset about this and it does get to her, her stomach is in a knot when a dog appears, the lead tightens, I always say let him approach with a slack lead if the owners agree. 

Funnily enough when I take him out I am quite relaxed and make him walk beside me rather than ahead and he doesn't bark half as much at the other dogs! think he thinks this one can take care of herself!lol


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## lily74 (Jan 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> I walk Flynn on a dogmatic head collar which is attached to his harness just in case he reacts to a dog and it comes off - really don't think it can though as they have a good strong buckle. Always best to be safe though.
> 
> I actually don't think Flynn is aggressive at all, just scared and poorly socialised which I put down to time out for his ops and me always being scared something may happen. Silly as it sounds my biggest fear is a latch on fight, I have this notion a dog will latch on to a back leg and dislocate the hip again. All in my crazy head I think but then what happens last week - blinking off lead Staff we just managed to avoid and get back in our garden - so just how crazy is that idea?
> Flynn focus's well with sweets, dolly mixtures are his faves but he's off of them now and onto doggy treats instead cos I know he really shouldn't have sweets!


It is hard to relax after a dog attack or fight, but if you can it is very important to be relaxed around other dogs.

Dexter approached an off lead large staffy the other day, she was very well trained, off lead. Dexter was a bit too hyper around her and a fight of growling and teeth broke out, I walked away and called him and her owner called his dog and luckily the fight stopped!

It is always in the back of my mind now but for the sake of the dog I have to show confidence and approach each situation with some degree of care but not to the point of overprotectiveness:smile5:


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

lily74 said:


> It is hard to relax after a dog attack or fight, but if you can it is very important to be relaxed around other dogs.
> 
> Dexter approached an off lead large staffy the other day, she was very well trained, off lead. Dexter was a bit too hyper around her and a fight of growling and teeth broke out, I walked away and called him and her owner called his dog and luckily the fight stopped!
> 
> It is always in the back of my mind now but for the sake of the dog I have to show confidence and approach each situation with some degree of care but not to the point of overprotectiveness:smile5:


whenever i see another dog walking towards us i get an image in my head of opie and jax fighting  it's been nine months since we rehomed jax, and it's taken me some time to start to fully relax walking opie. he's had one fight and that was in my garden with a friends dog. the other dog turned on opie because he was over protective of his owners car. the dog was used to biting at other dogs and them not reacting back but unfortunatly opie went into defense mode because he was used to fighting with jax. it stopped very quickly with just a couple of little scratches on both.

it helps that i now have a few different people that i can walk him with that have various dogs of various sizes. it's not always a nice simple walk. last friday i walked him with my friend bonny and her two dogs, 9 month old dobermann max and 2yr old gsd kia. max tried to hump opie  so opie turned on him and pinned him to the ground. he didn't hurt him, but it upset me seeing him do it. max then spent the rest of the walk following opie at a respectful distance, and was happy to play with him when we reached mine. when they have to go on lead for the short road walk i always walk opie at the back and leave some space between him and the other dogs to ensure he can't feel trapped.

to be honest, i'm surprised at how well behave opie is with other dogs. when i had him and jax i avoided other dogs because i was that scared of them kicking off so he was twenty months old before he was introduced to any. even then i would probably have gone on avoiding people if my friend tracey hadn't made me face my fears. opie is so hapy when he gets to play with other dogs. when his dog friends leave our house, he runs round the garden looking for them and the will throw his self into his bed with a very sad expression on his face.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Had my massively dog reactive (through over excitement) dog exactly a year, and am yet to find something positive that works.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dorrit said:


> There's a [training] school... here in Friesland, that I've heard people quote several times:
> 
> [the owners go to] the park with [their] puppy, but say their trainer's [told them that their] pup is
> *not* to engage or interact with other dogs - only with their owner, ...to build a stronger bond between
> ...


how very sad. :nonod: All pups need to meet as many nice dogs as possible: giants & toys, quiet & loud, 
active & lethargic lumps, elderly & infants - with prick ears & ring tails, with drop ears & NO tail, 
with long hound ears & whippy tails, with big pouffy coats & flat thin peach-fuzz, EVERYthing.

pups can be very anxious about meeting other dogs for life, if they aren't socialized early & well. 
it's not JUST "get the pup around heaps of off-leash dogs & let them all run riot", of course! 
it's nice give-&-take play, self-handicapping, politely approaching on a curved path - not head-on!, etc.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Sophie is on lead reactive and Im usually left standing there while she barks her head off as another dog passes by or Im left walking away while she attempts the side ways walk and continues barking.

But to me shes just all noise, shes sometimes got over her head with the cats and while I check them over they are just covered in slobber.

People tell me I have a little yappy rat that I should put a shock collar on her  and dont believe me when I saw she is on lead reactive to large dogs all because some people think its funny to let their big dog jump all over her to the point she is screaming.

They tell me she acts that way cause she is small and I allow her to but I dont if she acts I saw no, we walk away, shes made to sit.


But as soon as she is offlead with those large dogs shes fine......

But its sooo hard to find small dogs for her to play with, shes not yet had the full chance of being able to rough house with another dog her size because either theyre to big, shes onlead and cant be let off, or as soon as they get going the visit is cut short.

Which is one of the reasons I signed her up for doggy day care so that she can meet small dogs, get to play and hopfully learn some doggy manners.

Sadly Sophie has bitten someone because they didnt listen to me and Sophie snapped  :crying: 

She does nip hard when she gets excited and even tho we tell her off I really think she needs a dog to tell her off so that she understand enough is enough.

I also think an issue is her back legs I have a feeling were gonna be in for expensive treatment because they just dont look right (they look to bow out at the joint and she seems to walk on the very tip of her back paws and it just looks odd)


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## GayleC (Oct 5, 2011)

This thread is great.

We have a DR rescue and my problem is he has bitten every dog he has got close to. I say bite, but i suppose it's just a nip on the nose but I'm scared he'll get worse if not removed from the situation.

If he spots a dog on lead, he lunges and growls and barks and makes a real scene and we tend to avoid dogs. I don't have the confidence to let him off lead when other dogs are around as he runs straight for them and based on the fact he has nipped every dog who has got close on the nose, i'm worried he'll just make a beeline and attack. He's never been off lead with other dogs since we got him (October) and due to how he behaves i can't see me doing it in an open big space. I wouldn't be able to get there quick enough before he does any damage. 

He's definatley under socialised but how do i deal with this? I've seen suggestions for a muzzle which i'm happy to start training with, but without any doggy friends to work with (I'm thinking as a stoodge) and make friends with i don't know where to start which will help him without me getting in trouble for having a aggressive dog. He goes to dog training once a week purely for the socialisation, but he has to be engaged with you at all times otherwise he goes for the other dogs and their noses. I don't want to walk up to other dogs knowing full well he'll probably not be very nice to them.
I've also tried to slack line thing, but he runs to the end of the flexi and if i ran with him to give him the slack i'd be at the other dog before it went slack!!

Maybe its cos i'm not trained in healthy dog playing behavior, maybe i'm just panicing but i can't see how it will get better without getting a whole lot worse first!!

Can we have some more advice on how to even make a step forward with socialising an older dog (he's about 2) knowing full well he'll lunge and nip based on past behavior? We always treat him when he sees another dog and we walk him on cheerfully and this works when the dog is far enough away but if the dog is within 30m we cannot break his concentration on wanting to eat the other dog.

Any more ideas? I think we'll be onto muzzle training next and i'm still trying to find another dog he could try to be friends with.

Well done on starting this thread, a great source of info.


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## Splodge90 (Apr 29, 2012)

Hi I have a 9 week old staff had her for 2 weeks ! Also have a 8 yr old staff but the pup has started if I pick her up or get her off my sofa and she doesn't want to move she growls and snaps quite agressively, not sure how to handle it as I don't want the behaviour to continue and she become agressive any help or ideas would be great


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

didja notice the * title * of this thread?... Ur post is off-topic. 



Splodge90 said:


> I have a 9-WO *Staffordshire Bull-Terrier*; [i've] had her for 2 weeks.


in that case, U picked her up at least 1-week before U should have - 
early separation causes multiple problems in dogs, whcih can be lifelong & serious.

i'd suggest a brand-new post on this forum, titled something like, *"9-WO pup is being handled poorly"*, 
or *"novice owner is triggering defensive behavior - Help!"*... the 2nd from the puppy's point of view. :001_smile:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I have designed a new website to help people who have DINOS (dogs in need of space)

I hope ths is of help to those of you who have a dog like this.

Dogs In Need Of Space


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

So sorry for letting this thread got stale guys! I just "assumed" it would keep itself going. When my home internet is back on (phone line dead for a week now!) I'll start posting up more tales from my 2. I didn't stop posting because my 2 are angels now! Haha! 

Thanks for the link goodvic2, going to check it out now!

Thanks for bumping it up again.

xxx


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Zak (middle pic) tries to kill other dogs. He was on lead for months on the vet's advice to allow his bones to grow because he has hip dysplaysia. He therefore never interacted with other youngsters much.

Once off lead, he was attacked by a bearded collie whose owner subsequently refused to recall her dog whenever she saw us. It was a question of getting them in the car ASAP. Her dog attacked our car  and damaged it trying to get to my lot. Even my older, extremely calm dog went crazy at this. (Idiot woman has relocated for a year, hope she never comes back)

Zak's had one to one training with a reputable trainer but other than being more focussed, has not improved with other dogs. He's great if he knows them but with strange dogs, he needs to attack, be dominant so as not to be attacked first, I think. If he's tired, he isn't too bothered.

He's adorable at home, although very stubborn. I adore him and won't give up, but it's damned hard work.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Great thread. I've been reading through it.

Rex's hangups seem a bit different in some ways. He's same-sex dog aggressive. Castrating him has helped, I think. I'm not sure as his behaviour is more controlled simply through training and it may just be that.

Has anyone any experience of his type of problems? He has a strong prey drive and it has been suggested that his aggression is related to his urge to "hunt". Other people say he's well aware that dogs are not "prey" and it's irrelevent. I'm very sure he knows a dog is a dog.

I'm very sure the lead thing is not an issue in causing his aggression. On-lead or off-lead I can "sit" or "stand" or "drop" him next to another dog at a distance of a couple of feet and have him keep still so long as the other dog keeps still. If the other dog went to him, he'd murder it if he could. If he was free-running he would go to the other dog and attempt to kill it. 

On-lead and off-lead he'll "meet and greet" bitches. He has lived with two different bitches and never hurt either of them, or offered to. 

The ferocity of his attack has to be seen to be believed. He doesn't stop his attack when the other dog turns upside down. He may stop if the other dog runs for its life.

He's OK. I mean he's controllable and controlled. He hasn't hurt a dog since I've had him although he TERRIFIED a dog once (thank Dog for muzzles).

I just wondered if there was any way to "re-condition" him?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ozrex said:


> I just wondered if there's any way to "re-condition" him?


B-Mod can do wonders, but the prognosis is strongly affected by how long the behavior continues. 
How old was he when U got him, or did this develop post-puphood / U're his first home?

the longer he has continued to rehearse any behavior, the less-likely B-Mod is to change it *entirely -* 
that's not to say it cannot be changed, but how significantly it changes, or how reliably any new response 
is proofed, is the question.

& yes, desex does help reduce M:M aggro - it's not a silver bullet, as B-Mod is still needed, but it makes 
B-mod easier & more effective; in some cases, only desex makes B-Mod *possible*.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Thanks for that.

I'm his second owner. He lived with his first owner (FO) from birth. FO's ex-wife owned Rex's mother and FO owned Rex's father. FO is very vague when it comes to dates. When I got Rex he was supposed to be two; I think he may be older than that. I've had him for almost two years (it'll be two years at the end of September). I had him de-sexed.

He came to me because he killed three rams and damaged another two. He's a well known hunter in the area and has killed rabbits and kangaroos on a regular basis. He is safe with horses, chickens and cats.

He has attacked several dogs. He has been in numerous fights. I suspect he killed a wandering border collie but FO is a bit cagey about that. He has caused sigificant injuries to a pair of GSDs that I know about for certain.

He has done obedience work with me for most of the two years that I've had him. I'd say he's safe unless another dog jumps him, then he'd be VERY unsafe. I manage him with a Black Dog head collar on lead and a correction collar/choke chain and a muzzle off-lead. To be honest he might as well wear a flat collar off-lead but the chain's easier to carry around in my pocket, it's not used as a training aid or collar, but the instructors prefer it.

I can break "the stare" with a "watch" command at any distance. His body language is seriously dodgy. He walks with his head and tail well up, a real strut. He never slops along.

Any ideas? TBH I've sort of resigned myself to never trusting him un-muzzled, off-lead.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ozrex said:


> He lived with his first owner (FO) from birth. FO's ex-wife owned [his dam] & FO owned [his sire].
> FO is very vague [re] dates.... he was supposed to be 2-YO [on adoption]; I think [he was] older...
> I've had him [nearly] two years (2010, end of September). I had him de-sexed.
> 
> ...


i'd toss the choke-chain in the nearest bin, & tell the instructors to bog-off if they don't like it.

Why? 
cuz odds are good that at some point, he has ASSOCIATED the sensation & sound of the choke-chain 
with being *"corrected" AKA punished* for something - whether it was attacking livestock, killing 
wildlife or stock, chasing stock, taking off to hunt game, growling or lunging at other dogs, whatever it was...

& that YOU have not used it 'as a training-aid' - IOW, to close off his airway & jerk his neck - 
or at least, that U are no longer using it as an aversive after he's done something U don't like, 
*doesn't mean that no-one previously did use it as a 'training aid' - & the rattle of the chain 
would be more than sufficient to cue those memories / associated emotions.*

i'd ditch the rattling choke-chain, substitute an all-fabric limited-slip martingale, adjusted to sit 
*snug, smooth & high on his neck*, with -no- slack in the fabric-loop, to make it as snag-proof 
as possible, & put his tags on it, NOT on the D-ring for the leash, but on one of the sliders;
tuck his tags into a neoprene tag-bag / tag-silencer, or simply wrap the tags in a sturdy rubber-band - 
the type used on asparagus is good; replace the rubber-band regularly, as sunlight will degrade it.

now he has a silent collar & silent tags - eliminating any former emotional cues that relate to 
former violence perpetrated on him, his own violence toward other animals, & any 'corrections' AKA 
punishments he's experienced from a choke-chain, as well as the rattle of tags, WHICH CUE OTHER 
DOGS TO HIS PRESENCE - & can elicit their attention / aggro / reactivity.

behavior is always a conversation - his mere presence can trigger interest from other dogs; 
muting his tags means he gets closer without tripping their triggers, & it may make the difference 
between passing curiosity, & a barking alert - which of course, would trigger HIS defensive or predatory 
or intraspecies aggro.

is he tolerant of bitches / spayed-Fs? 
how does he react to pups? [caution - 
he may well be predatory toward toy-breeds or juvies!]


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Consider the choke chain binned. 

He has no past associations with it, at all. FO kept a belt around his neck and he'd never been on a lead until I got him; but when you said that I thought BINGO! FO put Rex on a chain when he was out. The chain was attached to the leather belt. Not a happy thing. Thanks I never thought of that.

Rex is good with bitches if they are polite. Loves to meet and greet. Not sure about a stroppy bitch as he's never met one while he's been with me. There are the occasional stroppy bitches at the dog club but paths have not crossed. They tend to be more FA and they don't go to him and get in his face.

He's FANTASTIC with Tess and loved her from a pup. She takes shocking liberties with him and the most he's ever done is yelp and move off. He tends to just walk off and refuse to play if she won't play nicely.

I've never had him anywhere near a male pup. He's met some females and been fine but he's never been off-lead near a pup except for Tess.

When he was with FO he had a bitch companion and was great with her.

Thanks for taking all this trouble.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Sorry. Re-read you post for umpteenth time and wanted to add. I agree completely that he triggers other dogs. It's absolutely no coincidence that the "teenage brat" GSD singled Rex out for an attack.

He doesn't wear his tags except on his flat collar in the garden and in the house. Victorian tags are bits of flat plastic shaped like a loop' they don't make any noise. He's microchipped and VERY unlikely to bog-off fron Dog Obedience. On ordinary walks he wear his Black-Dog head collar, his flat collar and is never off-lead.

I don't know about predatory towards small dogs he's certainly as aggressive to small or medium dogs as he is to large ones. Again, bitches are OK.

Just to clarify my use of the chain. On-lead at Dog class he wears the head collar. Because he is muzzled when he works off-lead, I take off his head collar and put his muzzle on. Hence the instructors wanting a chain. He's only ever worn it like an ornament. FO has never had one. Will certainly bin the thing. Never thought of the "chained-up" connection.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

yup - the rattle of a chain or jingle of tags can evoke powerful emotions, due to association.

i've desensitized many formerly-reactive dogs to strange dogs simply by jingling keys, & rewarding 
the dog every time s/he heard that sound - no dogs were needed, no stooges, no walks in the park, 
just the reactive dog & a keyring, with treats - in the house, or jingling outside while i rewarded 
the dog indoors, or we'd go out into the yard, or be on the sidewalk, or in the car... E-Z, very simple to do.


ozrex said:


> Consider the choke chain binned.


thanks, hun - & the dog will appreciate it, too. :yesnod: 


ozrex said:


> FO [used] a belt around his neck... he'd never been on a lead until I got him; but when you said that,
> I thought BINGO!... *FO put Rex on a chain when he was out.* The chain... attached to the leather belt.
> Not a happy thing.


Grrr - what a $#%&*@! - if i were a dog, i'd bite the ____ myself. :mad5: 


ozrex said:


> Rex is good with bitches if they're polite. Loves to meet & greet. Not sure about a stroppy bitch,
> as he's never met one while he's been with me. There are the occasional stroppy bitches at the dog club,
> but paths have not crossed. They tend to be more FA & they don't go to him & get in his face.


that's GREAT - at least his aggro toward dogs is not *all* dogs, every age & both sexes, so he does have 
some potential same-species buddies. :thumbsup:

what's FA? [i only know it as an abbreviation for a rude remark, F* all, meaning "know nothing", 
as in, "so-&-so knows F* all about dogs" - from the context above, i'm sure this is something else.  ] 


ozrex said:


> He's FANTASTIC with Tess & loved her from a pup. She takes shocking liberties with him, & the most
> he's ever done is yelp & move off. He tends to just walk off & refuse to play if she won't play nicely.


*Click - * good, good boy! :yesnod: 


ozrex said:


> I've never had him anywhere near a male pup. He's met some female [pups] & been fine, but he's never
> been off-lead near a pup except for Tess.


probly best, unless U can set it up so that the M-pup is behind a solidly-protected barrier - 
such as inside a shipping-crate & *elevated above his shoulders* so he can't stare the pup down, 
intimidate or threaten him, & Ur dog-aggro dog is on a 6-ft leash, carefully handled... tightening it 
can trigger a lunge, bark or snarl, if he's at all tense, so a front-clip H-harness is a good precaution. 
[if he lunges, it can both bring him up short simply by him taking up the slack, & swing his forehand 
away from the puppy, leaving the pup looking at his butt - MUCH less intimidating & scary than 
seeing an aggro-adult making ugly faces at him.  ] 


ozrex said:


> When he was with FO he had a bitch companion & was great with her.


good to know - most normal-Ms are not aggro toward Fs, but it does happen sometimes that males 
are simply aggressive to ALL dogs, no matter their age, sex, or repro-status; pups as young as 5-WO, 
elderly dogs who offer no challenging behaviors whatever, n/Ms, s/Fs, intact dogs of either sex - 
they just react violently or aggress toward every dog, anywhere, any time.  


ozrex said:


> Thanks for taking all this trouble.


U're more than welcome - i'm glad to meet an owner who has not given-up on their dog-aggro dog. 
Kudoes - lots of owners simply surrender the dog, & some add even more unhappiness & danger 
by *not telling the shelter or rescue the facts about their dog...* which means innocent ppl or other 
pets can be hurt, or at the least, badly frightened.

it's nice to know that one dog with a really bad beginning finally has someone worth trusting - 
that's important for the dog to have any chance of improving, & it gives me a real boost, too. :001_smile: Thanks. 
my morale needed that!


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## sades (Apr 27, 2012)

dorrit said:


> After being attacked by off lead dogs (where they shouldnt have been) and bitten twice Oscar is reactive to other dogs when on lead if they get too close or he doesnt know them well.
> With dogs he knows well there is no problem.
> 
> If a dog runs up in the park where dogs should be on lead all the time  I find that dropping his lead early breaks the tension and the greeting goes peacefully..( note if Im caught dropping his lead I also face an 85euro fine)
> ...


My rescue dog sounds like yours, very reactive to other dogs that run up to her when they are off lead, it makes me really mad that people dont call their dogs back when they can clearly see that my dog is not coping well having her space invaded. have just started using clicker after advice from a behaviourist, fingers crossed it will focus her on me when random dogs want to 'play'. Good luck.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

> i've desensitized many formerly-reactive dogs to strange dogs simply by jingling keys, & rewarding
> the dog every time s/he heard that sound - no dogs were needed, no stooges, no walks in the park,
> just the reactive dog & a keyring, with treats - in the house, or jingling outside while i rewarded
> the dog indoors, or we'd go out into the yard, or be on the sidewalk, or in the car... E-Z, very simple to do.


OK that's simple. I've started.



> Grrr - what a $#%&*@! - if i were a dog, i'd bite the ____ myself.


To be fair to former owner they lived on a farm. There was no dog-proof fence on the property and Rex was chained as most farm dogs are chained in Australia. He was only chained when the owner was off the property and for some reason Rex could not go with him. Rex would spend a lot of time with his owner probably much more time than a city dog would spend with its people. Rex has never been chained since he left the farm. He lives in his house and well-fenced garden.

Do you think that Rex can ever be re-conditioned to cope with male dogs? Look he has a home-for-life either way and we can manage very well with his problems. Luckily for Rex (I personally don't like it) dogs are required to be on-lead at all times here - except in specific areas - so there's not really a problem apart from an occasional idiot with an off-lead dog where it shouldn't be. Even that is manageable now Rex is so obedient.

I just wondered if things could be better still.....

Oh, by FA I meant fear-aggressive (blush).


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I can't believe i've only just seen this thread!

I will post on it tomorrow when my brain isn't sleepy mush


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ozrex said:


> Do you think that Rex can ever be re-conditioned to cope with [other males]?


no way to know, till U try. :yesnod: I'd recommend *Control unleashed* techniques, which can be seen 
on UTube, or buy / borrow the book; also, IMO & IME, _'Click to Calm'_ is by far the best DIY manual 
for reactive-issues available; many pet-owners use it with good results.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ozrex said:


> ...by FA I meant fear-aggressive (blush).


ah! :thumbsup: gotcha - it's interesting to note that according to a survey of USA vet-behaviorists, 
over 85% of aggression issues they saw in their case-loads were fear-based.

the supposition that "all dogs are attempting to dominate us humans", per CM/DW & some others, 
is IMO unadulterated bunk; most of the dogs i meet are amazingly tolerant of bizarre & often intrusive 
or downright rude &/or painful behaviors, & it often amazes me that we don't see more bites.

letting the kid climb on, ride, poke, pester, take items from, etc, the family dog, & then BRAG 
about the dog's tolerance, is one that can send my blood-pressure soaring... i tend to point out just how rude 
the kids are being, & ask the children if THEY would let someone else do that TO THEM - 90% say no, 
if they're 5-YO & up - & they often look first surprised, & then shamefaced.

their parents sometimes still don't grasp the concept that dogs aren't stuffed toys, & riding an aging dog 
is excruciatingly painful to arthritic joints.  Sometimes i'm stunned at how good the dog is, 
& how shockingly unaware the parent is / are. ~Sigh. ~


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ozrex said:


> [Rex previously] lived on a farm [with] no dog-proof fence... & Rex was chained, as most farm-dogs
> are chained in Australia. He was only chained when the owner was off the property &... Rex could not
> go with him. Rex would spend a lot of time with his owner probably much more time than a city-dog
> would spend with [her/his] people.


the difficulty with chaining the dog - ANY dog - is that it precludes a whole slew of options: 
dogs have only 5 basic choices - *F*lee, *F*ight, *F*reeze, *F*ool-around, & *F*lirt.

*fight* or * flee* are the 2 top-contenders; on a chain, the dog CANNOT flee, but only fight. 
Freezing isn't very effective on a chain, fool-around & flirt are also very limited, as the dog's movement 
is so constrained by the chain's length - & in some cases, its weight & / or flexibility: kinked chains are 
potentially lethal.

since he was home-alone when chained, anything could have happened - i'd bet that at least once, 
perhaps many times, another male dog entered the unfenced property & teased Rex by his mere presence 
[dogs are territorial, as we humans are], or even worse, attacked him whilst he was chained & vulnerable.

i doubt his ex-owner would ever admit to finding mysterious injuries on his dog, coming home one day, 
& if they were under his coat, they may well never even have been seen at all.

it only takes ONE event of a trapped animal being teased, provoked, or attacked, to develop some 
major defensive attitude - & the best defense according to these animals is often one helluva'n OFFENSE: 
"i'll hit them before they hit me." :nonod:



ozrex said:


> Rex has never been chained since he left the farm. *He lives in his house & well-fenced garden.*


does he have a dog-house in the garden? 
or does he live indoors, with the family?


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Rex lives in the house, with Tess. They go into bedrooms "by invitation" to dislodge recalcitrant teenagers from their beds. Otherwise they have free and unfettered access to the sitting room, where they have a bed, dining room where they have food and water, kitchen and laundry (where they have another bed). They sleep on the couches in the sitting room at night and sometimes during the day if we're out.

Rex sometimes wanders off to the laundry if he's had enough of Tess. She always stays where her humans are and doesn't usually follow him. He has what we call "Rex's cave" in the laundry. It's the bottom shelf of a deep cupboard. He chose it when his Former Owner was renovating our house and the cupboard doors were off. I just had the doors cut short so he could continue to use it

If we are home the doors are open so they wander in and out of the garden as they choose. When we are out the doors are shut and they stay in the house.

It's more than possible that Rex has had dogs wander onto the property when he was chained. There are a lot of wandering dogs in the area.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i'm pretty sure i've mentioned these on this thread already, 
but here's the link again: 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/1457713-post22.html

these are all non-Rx, relatively-cheap, VERY safe, & have no dangerous side-FX; they also don't interact 
with other meds / food / etc, & have no dosage risks.

i'd suggest Rex get 3 different ones simultaneously - 1 oral, 1 tactile, & 1 olfactory. 
As each works via a different sense, whichever one works fastest will help the other 2 - 
thus magnifying the bang for the same buck. 

EX: use DAP pump-spray on his collar [off the dog, spritz 1x, replace on the dog] about 10-mins before 
a walk / potential dog-encounters / sightings, & his leash about a hands-length from the clip, just before 
leaving the house; that's ONE. THen perhaps use a snug & stretchy T-shirt that compresses his hair - 
U can buy one at a used-clothing store very cheaply; that's TWO. Add a *conditioned* scent 
from aromatherapy: lavender-water used for bed-linens is terrific, but U need to spend about a week 
'conditioning' him by pairing the scent with relaxed, calm circs before using it under even MILD stress - 
such as a 2 or 3 sprays, spritzed onto a cotton-ball laid on a china saucer out of the dog's reach, 
while U watch TV for the last 30-mins before bedtime, each night for 5 to 7 days...


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

OK. I'll get the stuff and try it. Thanks very much. I'll let you know how he goes.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Just wanted to post about this for those of you who are in the middle of it. I think it does go to show that with patience and time this issue can be greatly reduced.

Well on Sunday i faced my biggest fear with Oscar. We had a family get together (i have a BIG family). I have Oscar, my brother has a gorgeous year old black lab called Charlie and my sister has a welsh terrier who is about 7 months now. This was their firsst group meeting.

I have been working on oscar and toffee (he took an instant dislike to her when they first met) and we can now have them loose together in my house although oscar does still grumble at her if she bothers him but Toffee is learning the rules .

Anyway i was dreading the get together because i was worried how Oscar would be and to cut a long story short it was fine. Luckily Charlie is the perfect adolescent (respectful and submissive but not too much so and not overly bouncy) and all 3 dogs were loose in my parents garden together for most of the day. 

Yes Oscar did have a grumble but they all sorted it out amongst themselves and the younger ones soon established he was just a grumpy old man and went off to play. 

This is massive for me because we do get together quite regularly and go camping etc so its important the dogs are ok with each other.  

It also made me realise that actually Oscar is pretty wel behaved/trained compared to a couple of naughty pupster !!!! lol 

Wish i had taken some photos


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## tenter (Nov 24, 2011)

Hi Guys

My Bella is the most adorable wheaten terrier, shes very good and well behaved in the house (I use clicker training) she does as shes told and is very calm and loveing. When I take her outside its a completely different story, she gets excited if anyone speaks to her and jumps up onto them. She is also very dominant with other dogs and jumps onto their backs. All my training goes up the wall when outdoors. Shes only 9 months old do you think she'll calm down outside, any ideas as Im so embarassed when I take her out for a walk


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

tenter said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> My Bella is the most adorable wheaten terrier, shes very good and well behaved in the house (I use clicker training) she does as shes told and is very calm and loveing. When I take her outside its a completely different story, she gets excited if anyone speaks to her and jumps up onto them. She is also very dominant with other dogs and jumps onto their backs. All my training goes up the wall when outdoors. Shes only 9 months old do you think she'll calm down outside, any ideas as Im so embarassed when I take her out for a walk


Dont worry, you're doing the right thing! I dont believe shes being dominant, in fact most people on here dont believe in the D-theory amongst dogs, shes probably just excited! My 2 dogs hump each other all the time, Ive seen even the most submissive dog become "dominant" in humping another dog, so it doesnt make sense!

Perhaps working on being calm when seeing another dog by doing on lead training and then when shes calm letting her off? Once calm she may be less inclined to hump.

xxx


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## fortunesfool (Feb 11, 2012)

V glad this post started but at the same time has made me more slightly worried! Bodhi has generally mixed reactions to other dogs although mostly good but noticed on the last couple of walks he seems to be getting a bit more vocal(deep woof) when seeing other dogs, coupled with lunging and general fuss but I don't want to tense myself up by assuming it's suddenly DA/DR although from reading other peoples post he doesn't seem to be there yet.

I was working on getting his attention and getting him to sit when other dogs went past which seemed to be going ok but wasn't sure if this was creating more fuss and I should just be working on walking past dogs and keeping his attention. If I do walk him I am trying to do the curve approach but not always practical on narrow paths! Any thoughts on what works better - stopping or keeping going

Fact and figures - as an on lead dog most of the time he tends to respond to other on lead dogs. If he is approached by off lead he seems pretty un-phased by them if he gets to say hello. I tend to walk him on as his attention span is pretty short and he quickly works out that it looks like the off lead dog is having more than fun him. Versus on lead is much more of a mine field but if they lunge he will definitely lunge back. From what I've read here me tensing up (which yes I admit I do) doesn't seem to be particularly helpful. 

The other issue might be doggie socialisation - we only have one other dog owning friend but her lab was recently bitten by a staffie (not mine thankfully) so not sure if if would help or hinder either of us?

Lastly we are auditioning new trainers (having had a bag experience with the last one) so hopefully they will be able to help with all of this (all my other dog training neuroses)


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Thought I would shout help, on day one of walking my fear aggressive 12 month old rescue, Jackson. I don't want to make things worse. We had a good walk this morning in harness + collar linked to harness by loose extension intended for linking halti to collar (have not even thought of halti yet). Reason - he is an escape artist! If he sees another dog he starts lunging barking then backing out of harness in a flash. Met a couple of dogs at a distance this am, bad -but not awful awful. I tried to choose quiet times but tonight saw a dog over the road and major episode All I did was get down by him and hold him really tight as I do my grand daughter when she's having a dicky fit. It did scare me though as he had slipped the harness and only the collar was preventing escape
In one day he has learnt " look" (my word for watch) already knew sit so eager to learn.
Not interested in food rewards when out even for peeing with no other obvious distraction. Interested to read Leashed for Life's suggestion of close fitting tee shirt. Are "thunder vests or similar" any good for fear aggression? My biggest prob today ( tomorrow it could all change) is keeping him from escaping collar and harness. I shall just walk him on the grass behind our house for now till someone explains what to do next. It feels like chicken and egg. I have read all through this thread and it gives me great hope for the future. My feeling is I have to concentrate on basic recall and "look" commands and avoid any dog contact until he is settled in and knows us better. Baby steps. I feel that every contact with another dog will make things worse till we've mastered the basics between us. Is there a style of harness more secure than another? he is a lovely gentle boy in the house and garden with occasional puppy type "zoomies!!"
Will be seeking professional help once I've taken advice on who is recommended from vet.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Only just read this thread..can i join in 

Chester is 14 months and has become fear aggressive, it basically happened after having the suprelorin implant  

Were hoping that when the implant wears off, he will get a little confidence back and be less fearful so less reactive ...fingers crossed 

I am having ongoing help from my trainer which is brilliant and she helps me in class if she notices he is freezing/staring etc ..he is getting better ..but a long way to go yet

He was a singleton puppy ..and I often wonder if this has anything to do with it, he has attended training classes since he was 12 weeks old so has been quite well socialized..


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I'm bumping this thread as I would love to find a non reactive dog to walk alongside in the Watford, Herts area. My dog will be under control at all times, of course. I just need top the ante a bit now he's calmer and have a walking buddy occasionally.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Ooh cool thread 

My difficulty is finding enough well socialised, polite dogs to mix her with. She knows how to play and has (or had) pretty good inter-canine social skills and actually enjoys interacting with calm, well behaved dogs, especially medium/large dogs. She spent the first 6 months of her life in a house full of other dogs, but unsupervised and she was a bit runty and sickly I wonder if she was bullied.

The problem with her lack of early socialisation and resulting nervousness means they she's really extremely sensitive to any negative experiences with other dogs and sadly, there have been a number of these, despite my efforts to avoid them. She not only recognises the individual dogs, but the breed and area each event happened!

I have a few dog walking friends and she's OK to walk calmly with them, the difficulty comes if you introduce a toy or other unfamiliar dog. She also does not like unfamiliar dogs jumping up at me, not sure if that's a protective behaviour or jealousy of some kind? 
She's quite a vocal dog though, lots of yapping, snapping and snarling but no tooth to fur IYKWIM (not that I underestimate the potential).
I spoke to a behaviourist who said essentially there's nothing you can do to prevent resource guarding around other dogs. In Diz's previous home, all the dogs were free fed together so each had to fight for their share.

Her confidence is growing steadily, she's no longer afraid to tell OTT dogs to 'get lost' whereas previously she would either display extreme submissive behaviour or try to bolt - not sure if that's a good thing or not tbh.

I tried classes with her but the combination of unfamiliar dogs in and unfamiliar place was just too much and she got very stressed - I'm now on a waiting list for a class which only allows six dogs at a time.

In all honesty I don't think her quality of life would be particulary affected if she never met another dog again, she's just more of a people dog, she likes her toys, her human friends and family and she's OK with that. I often think it's more for my benefit I want her to interact with lots of other dogs as I so miss my old dog club and group walks 

Sorry not a very constructive post, just wanted to share


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## mattcollie (Jun 1, 2012)

so glad to see this much needed thread. this is exactly the issue i had when i first got matt - my first dog. i woud have loved to have read this thread then as i felt very isolated, upset and alone with it. Matt is a rescue border collie approximately 4 years old. When i first got him we knew he was dog reactive. he went absolutely nuts every time he saw another dog. We took him to a trainer who desensitised him with his dogs. this helped a bit. but i still continued to walk him in deserted areas as i was worried about his reactions and other peoples reactions to his lunging behaviour. gradually built up going to busier areas but it was still a problem. took him to obdience classes - but they were very much centred around dominance/pack leader theories. but they did give matt the opportunity to be around and get used to other dogs. he became a bit less reactive but still reacted to certain dogs.

Currently we don't attend any classes as i've found it too stressful. I've had him now nearly 5 months and he is loads better but dit does depend on his mood and the day. Most of the time now he shows very little interest in other dogs, the main reason for this being he is ball obsessed and i use his ball to distract him from other dogs. he couldn't care less if a dog bounds up to him if he is focused on his ball. We do have bad days sometimes, for instance if a dog catches his interest he might stalk or look threatening and sometimes lunges at them. but the majority of the time i can let him off his lead and keep him focused on the ball.

i love him to bits and accept that he does behave badly at times but who knows what his background is. I've come to accept that i don't get to parks as they are too crammed with loads of dogs which makes both me and matt uncomfortable. its a small price to pay for having such an amazing, loving dog. but i am lucky that i found a way of controlling it with his ball.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Hey Mattcollie, he sounds like my Zak. Ball obsessed, thank God, so he can have time off lead and is totally focused on the ball. I have a 50 foot line and haul him in if there are dogs around but I can throw the ball at another dog and all he cares about is fetching it. I stand on the line if he looks like he's going too far but I let it go if throwing the ball. 

After fetching the ball lots, I can let him meander round at the full extent of the line and just keep an eye on what he's doing. I'm ever vigilant for other dogs! 

Mine lives with his brother and an older springer and is fine with them having always been with them. He also likes the GSD next door because he's always known her and a very old dog we see on walks. All other dogs, he just wants to attack 

Could you find a local dog walker so you can walk yours alongside? That's my next step a I ihave a handy contact, but I would wear him out first.


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## mattcollie (Jun 1, 2012)

cinammontoast said:


> Hey Mattcollie, he sounds like my Zak. Ball obsessed, thank God, so he can have time off lead and is totally focused on the ball. I have a 50 foot line and haul him in if there are dogs around but I can throw the ball at another dog and all he cares about is fetching it. I stand on the line if he looks like he's going too far but I let it go if throwing the ball.
> 
> After fetching the ball lots, I can let him meander round at the full extent of the line and just keep an eye on what he's doing. I'm ever vigilant for other dogs!
> 
> ...


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## mattcollie (Jun 1, 2012)

no sure what happened to the quote bit!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

You must have deleted the last bit in brackets [/QUOTE]

That's very handy to have other dogs to walk with. I need that! I have a fab dog walker aquaintance but she tends to walk up to 14 yappy dogs at a time.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Just wondering how many dogs on here have been assessed by a behaviourist. The reason I ask is because I had always thought Flynn was dog aggressive but having him assessed by two behaviourists I now know he isn't, he's just dog reactive and he gets that from me. 

I know I am dog reactive because I only have to see a dog when I'm with Flynn and I get a 'zing' which goes straight through me. I don't get that with Kali or Bruce but they have never reacted to a dog so I don't pre empt that they will. Apparently my anxiety is in my voice as Flynn showed the behaviourist when she brought a dog out and I told Flynn 'Wait' at which he immediately pricked his ears and stood tall. Now I have to stay silent and just use the clicker if he's good.

Anyhow taking Flynn to training and seeing him in a class with five other dogs, some yapping their heads off and him not caring has helped both him and me no end. I don't think I will ever be as relaxed around dogs with him as I am with Kali and Bruce but as long as the behaviourists voice is in my head saying: 'Stay calm, loose lead and don't pre empt anything - if you react so will he, if you don't he won't' I know we can walk past a dog at least and have no reaction. It's so very hard for me though, he's 60kgs and strong as an ox when he wants to be. Still it's not about strength is it? Or at least it shouldn't be!


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

> EX: use DAP pump-spray on his collar [off the dog, spritz 1x, replace on the dog] about 10-mins before
> a walk / potential dog-encounters / sightings, & his leash about a hands-length from the clip, just before
> leaving the house; that's ONE. THen perhaps use a snug & stretchy T-shirt that compresses his hair -
> U can buy one at a used-clothing store very cheaply; that's TWO. Add a conditioned scent
> ...


Been doing this since you suggested it Leasedforlife and followed your other suggestions. The only thing that's been a problem is Older Son being unwilling to take Rex out while Rex is wearing a tee-shirt. I do, Thomas doesn't. Some numpty wanted to know why a big, hairy GSD (!) was wearing it, son rather embarrassed. Got me some funny comments at the Dog Club, too!!

Have to say I think it's working. Rex's body language has improved. (Ignoring the instructor who jokes it's because the dog is embarrassed). Rex's tail is no longer over his backside but hock level and his front end is more relaxed and less stiff. Less of a strut and more of a relaxed walk.

Seriously doubt he'll ever be safe off lead without his muzzle but he looks a hell of a lot happier.

Heartfelt thanks from me and Rex!

With regard to your question Malmum. Rex saw a behaviourist when I realised we had trouble, about a week after we got him. Ian was VERY good. He spent a couple of hours assessing him as we walked and then in the house. He came to Dog Obedience to see him there (not off-lead at that time). He gave me the confidence and tools to be able to handle him. His suggestion was the Black-dog head collar that I use and the muzzle. Ian came to re-assess when we got Tess and made more helpful suggestions about managing the two of them.

I have trained dogs before but without Ian's help I would never have considered that I could manage a dog that is actually dangerous. To be honest, without his help I would have had Rex pts. Rex is a lot more than dog training. His obedience training was very easy, like a lot of his type he loves it and looks to me to see what I want.


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

It is really reassuring to read other people's stories. We know nothing about our 2 year old rescue JRTs history as he was a stray. He is very very reactive to other dogs and has got worse since we got him 3 weeks ago. I know we are making this worse but how do you stay calm when he is leaping about and yapping like a maniac?

I think a lot of the problem is that he is on a lead. The Rescue Centre thought that he hadnt been walked on a lead much and this makes sense. He sees another dog, sets off to go towards it, realises he is on the lead and then goes nuts. The problem is that we are too scared to just let him approach another dog because he doesnt know how to behave. The one time we did this with the other dog owners consent he got very excited, tried to put his paws on the other dog who then snapped at him.

We can do watch me if the other dog is a long way off and/or he doesnt see it. Otherwise there is nothing you can do but hang on to him as he goes beserk. This is just reinforcing his bad behaviour and I feel that he is not learning anything.

My husband has a few days off work and we cant go anywhere with the dog because its a nightmare. I didnt expect to be able to go to busy places straight away but I feel like every walk is just so stressful. Bertie is a great dog in all other ways but I do worry that we wont get this sorted.

Sorry, I just needed to get all that off my chest. I even dreamed about walking the dog last night.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Chester is fear aggressive .. We visited a behaviourist who is actually our trainer a few week into his change of behaviour .... I am seeing improvement with him , at training last week we even did an off lead recall ... The first time in 5 months ...

Training classes can work with dogs who are reactive for one reason or another as long as the trainer understands the problem and helps in a positive way , for instance we sit next to the back Door, so if he becomes stressed we go out and then when calm we return..


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ozrex said:


> Been doing this since you suggested it Leasedforlife and followed your other suggestions.
> The only thing that's been a problem is Older Son... unwilling to take Rex out while Rex is wearing a tee-shirt.
> I do, Thomas doesn't. Some numpty wanted to know why a big, hairy GSD (!) was wearing it, son rather
> embarrassed. Got me some funny comments at the Dog Club, too!!


kids... 


ozrex said:


> Have to say I think it's working. Rex's body language has improved. (Ignoring the instructor who jokes
> it's because the dog is embarrassed).
> *Rex's tail is no longer over his backside but hock level & his front end is more relaxed and less stiff.
> Less of a strut and more of a relaxed walk.*
> ...


YAY!... :thumbup: Good dog, & well-done, YOU! :smile:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Janey D said:


> We know nothing about our 2-YO rescue JRT's history as he was a stray.
> He is very very reactive to other dogs & has got worse since we got him 3 weeks ago.
> 
> I know we're making this worse but how do you stay calm when he's leaping about & yapping like a maniac?


what sort of collar? 
anything which tightens to infinity [choke, kennel lead that slides shut, Brit gun-dog lead, etc] 
or pokes [prong collars] will make it worse - he associates the other dogs with the 'punitive' sensation.

a FRONT-clipped harness can help a lot - any H-harness that fits smoothly & snug to the body is fine, 
it doesn't need to be 'anti-pull' or have a martingale-style loop that closes on the chest, in fact i avoid those, 
as i don't like the idea of added pressure over the foreleg / shoulder: a massive nerve bundle 
runs under the arm, & pressure could inflame it, especially over & over again repeated pressure.

U don't need to habituate the harness - put it on, fit it very snug, clip the leash to the chest, & go.
if there's a chest-ring of metal, BONUS! - if not, just buy a Locking Carabiner at any outdoor-supply 
or hiking / climbing retailer, slip it under the junction of the 3 straps on the diagonal, LOCK it, 
& clip the leash to the carabiner - U're off. 

CLICK TO CALM is a terrific DIY-manual for any reactivity issue - buy it used or on sale, 
or borrow it from the library - if need be via interlibrary loan. :yesnod:


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> what sort of collar?
> anything which tightens to infinity [choke, kennel lead that slides shut, Brit gun-dog lead, etc]
> or pokes [prong collars] will make it worse - he associates the other dogs with the 'punitive' sensation.
> 
> ...


Thank you. We use a harness already as he has problems with his skin and the harness seems better and kinder to him than the collar.

Will look at that book too, have heard someone else mention it. We have started clicker training and I like this idea.

I am meeting my parents tomorrow and we are going to walk together, with one of them taking the dog when we meet another dog walker. My parents have had several dogs and it will be interesting to see if Bertie reacts differently with one of them in charge. I am still a bit nervous about how he is going to behave though. My husband thinks that muzzling him is the answer to give me confidence that he is not going to bite another dog.

I need to get back in touch with Blue Cross on Monday anyway to update them on how we are getting on and get some more advice from their behaviour expert.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

another thumbs up about the book Click to Calm from me...its brilliant and really helpful 




I found training Chester to do a simple high five is one of the best things I have done especially for when we are at training, if he starts to react I get him to do a few high fives very quickly and he calms right back down again


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## mattcollie (Jun 1, 2012)

Janey D said:


> It is really reassuring to read other people's stories. We know nothing about our 2 year old rescue JRTs history as he was a stray. He is very very reactive to other dogs and has got worse since we got him 3 weeks ago. I know we are making this worse but how do you stay calm when he is leaping about and yapping like a maniac?
> 
> I think a lot of the problem is that he is on a lead. The Rescue Centre thought that he hadnt been walked on a lead much and this makes sense. He sees another dog, sets off to go towards it, realises he is on the lead and then goes nuts. The problem is that we are too scared to just let him approach another dog because he doesnt know how to behave. The one time we did this with the other dog owners consent he got very excited, tried to put his paws on the other dog who then snapped at him.
> 
> ...


This is exactly how things were with matt when we first got him it is very upsetting. and yes you do think you'll never be able to walk him in public places. 5 months down the line its a different story for us. I would recommend you do walk him in quiet places at the moment and work with a behaviourist gradually desensitising him to other dogs in a controlled environment. I found working with a trainer and using his dogs helped, they were trained not to react. its very early days for you. things changed so much the longer they are with you


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I don't think anyone here I've told Chance's full story to soooooo i'll put that first.

Chance is a now 2 year old american bulldog, that at 18 months old found himself in the rescue centre.

He had been used in dog fighting and guarding the owners house, he weighed a fraction of what he should have when i got him home and weighed him, had cigarette burns on muzzle, head and paws. Number of bruise like things, scars/bites whatever. Fur was yellow and bald in particular on his chest and belly, terrified of most things, for example if you picked up a pole/broom etc etc he'd cry, shake and wet himself. He slept sat bolt up right and it goes on.

He did get his confidence back once he settled and that's when his problems appeared. He is people aggressive but thats another thread..... he is very very dog reactive when first introduced to a new dog, he will bark, cry, spin whatever but once he's calmed and met them he is fine. He thankfully isn't DA but had no idea how to act or meet dogs.

Over the past year he has calmed down and can be introduced to dogs alot easier now, but treats/toys anything like that makes no difference to him you do need alot of patience though


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## mattcollie (Jun 1, 2012)

pogo said:


> I don't think anyone here I've told Chance's full story to soooooo i'll put that first.
> 
> Chance is a now 2 year old american bulldog, that at 18 months old found himself in the rescue centre.
> 
> ...


thats so sad what he's been through. nearly made me cry. thank god he has you caring for him now. x


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks  x


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Oh, this is a great thread! 

I am not sure what Jake is... 

In general, he is a very sociable dog. However, I need to watch him because some dogs he just takes a 'dislike' to. He has never ever been 'aggressive' with them (not in the true sense I think of), but he makes loads of noise, and shoulder barges them  He has only ever done this to males, and he mainly does it in the local park. On other walks, he can still do it but it isn't as often. Because of this though, I don't like him to meet dogs when off lead. On lead, I can let him have a sniff... if he reacts, I can pull him away (I don't worry because I know he won't bite or anything like that and I know the signals before he properly starts). If he doesn't react, then he can go off for a play. I haven't yet found a set 'type' of dog he reacts to... it can be both entire and neutered males, they are different breeds although I have noticed he seems to have a thing about spaniels! (particularly cockers and springers!) but he does it to other breeds as well... 

On most walks away from the park, he will usually ignore other dogs... unless, they come too close or they are following us along a path. Like the other month, I thought he would be ok because their was a spaniel following behind us and he saw the dog but completely ignored it... after 10 minutes of the dog follow us along the path (river on one side and steep wooded hill on the other so nowhere other than the path to go), he charged up to the dog, making all his noises, circled the dog keeping about two feet of difference and then ran back to us ... it was like he was warning the dog, because the following was making him anxious. The next time we were in that situation, he went straight on the lead!

I find it hard because he is very noisy. Even in play he is noisy, and even the people who know him freak out when he plays with other dogs  (mainly Arrow or his best friend, Paddy). I have even been in situations where people who should know about dog behaviour (dog trainer) has freaked out and shouted at him to get, because he is making noises... while in a play bow, happily jumping about in a playful manner and his tail wagging... he was hardly snarling and showing his teeth, looking like he was about to launch an attack  It upsets me, and really gets to me... I haven't been back there since that incident. I just cannot be doing with it. 

Jake is scared when a dog shows true aggression to him, and he will choose the flight option. However, he will stand up for himself if a dog is being rude, and he will not back down. He has major issues with one of the dogs we walk with... to the point that recently, I have been making excuses not to walk with them, or doing a short walk and saying I need to head home early 

I can't, and won't, blame Jake for his reaction to this other dog. This dog has no understanding of what a telling off is. Jake has known the dog since the other dog was a pup, and they got on well, they played etc. But when Jake tried to stop the play, the other dog wouldn't listen. As he got bigger, he got worse and as he grew, Jake tolerated his boisterousness less and less. Now, Jake's tolerance of the dog is very very small... the dog eye balls him, he stands in front of him and blocks his path, he tries to steal things of him etc. They can walk next to each without a problem, they can sniff the same clump of grass without a problem etc. 

Jake does not seem comfortable with any kind of proper interaction though, even a simple bum sniff and he will growl. He has never bitten the other dog properly, but he has grabbed him, and pinned him to the floor. No damage was done though, so Jake was obviously controlling it. I tried explaining this in another thread, but I don't think I explained it well enough, and people didn't seem to think it is as bad as it is. I'm not an expert in dog behaviour, but I understand that growling, lip raising, air snapping etc are normal communications with dogs in certain circumstances. Jake does all of those, but it is more fierce than he is usually is... he is right in the other dogs face, he looks really nasty and it is prolonged (a matter of seconds but prolonged compared to normal). I know it isn't proper aggression (lets face it, if it was Jake would have bitten/attacked him by now) but it does look really nasty. And of course, it is Jake who looks bad, rather than the dog with almost zero doggy skills! 

I just don't know what do to... The last week or so, I just can't relax on walks because they had another spat, and it is getting worse. I need to talk to the owner, and I am going to stop walking with them... at least not as much as I do now. I want to do this as well because the dog is rough with Arrow, and it drives me up the wall because the owner does nothing, and I need to get his dog off! 

So, Jake isn't DA but I guess he could be classed as reactive with the noises? 

I didn't mean to ramble on as much as I have


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

pogo said:


> I don't think anyone here I've told Chance's full story to soooooo i'll put that first.
> 
> Chance is a now 2 year old american bulldog, that at 18 months old found himself in the rescue centre.
> 
> ...


Oh thats awful. Well done you for taking him on, a lot of people would have walked away. In these circumstances its not the dogs fault that he behaves like he does and I guess you just have to keep reminding yourself of that. The more difficult things get with Bertie the more determined I am to get it sorted, I just have those little moments when the doubts creep in!


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Janey D said:


> Oh thats awful. Well done you for taking him on, a lot of people would have walked away. In these circumstances its not the dogs fault that he behaves like he does and I guess you just have to keep reminding yourself of that. The more difficult things get with Bertie the more determined I am to get it sorted, I just have those little moments when the doubts creep in!


Thanks, I've been told by many people, including my ex vet that Chance is 'to broke' and should be PTS. He couldn't be rehomed from us now (not that i would) and i don't blame him for be so distrusting and aggressive to people, i've been badly bitten by him trying to stop him getting at kids trying to get into our garden. I know he'd never purposely bite me or the OH and he was utterly terrified when he realised it was me he'd bitten.

We've got to the point where he will accept people in the house and will sit with them for a fuss, but has a habit of 'keeping an eye' on them i guess to make sure they are behaving  but he's my baby and i wouldn't change him


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## mattcollie (Jun 1, 2012)

pogo said:


> Thanks, I've been told by many people, including my ex vet that Chance is 'to broke' and should be PTS. He couldn't be rehomed from us now (not that i would) and i don't blame him for be so distrusting and aggressive to people, i've been badly bitten by him trying to stop him getting at kids trying to get into our garden. I know he'd never purposely bite me or the OH and he was utterly terrified when he realised it was me he'd bitten.
> 
> We've got to the point where he will accept people in the house and will sit with them for a fuss, but has a habit of 'keeping an eye' on them i guess to make sure they are behaving  but he's my baby and i wouldn't change him


whenever i read thing like this on this website it makes me feel so glad that there are amazing people like you in the world who respect and understand dogs and don't give up on them despite their problems:thumbup:


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

mattcollie said:


> whenever i read thing like this on this website it makes me feel so glad that there are amazing people like you in the world who respect and understand dogs and don't give up on them despite their problems:thumbup:


Thank you very much, it's nice to hear


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Janey D said:


> We use a harness already...
> he has problems with his skin & the harness seems better & kinder to him than the collar.


Great! :thumbup1:
where does the leash attach? Over his shoulders, behind his ribs, or on his forechest?


Janey D said:


> I am meeting my parents tomorrow & we're going to walk together, with one of them taking the dog
> when we meet another dog walker. My parents have had several dogs and it will be interesting to see
> if Bertie reacts differently with one of them in charge.


good idea; if it's You influencing him - IOW he does better with mom or dad - focus on CUES 
that U may give which indicate alarm or worry: 
- tightening the leash 
- gasping, or U stop breathing when U see / hear / etc, his trigger 
- stiffening, slowing down Ur pace 
- staring at the trigger


Janey D said:


> I'm still a bit nervous about how [he'll] behave, tho. My DH thinks that muzzling him is the answer
> to give me confidence that he [won't] bite another dog.


muzzles must be *pre-conditioned as happy things* before they are actually worn or used - 
just putting one on can actually make things worse, as the huge majority of dogs are reactive due to anxiety, 
& being truly defenseless does -Not- help them to relax & cope.

also, muzzles are only for on-leash use, or when supervised - not when off-leash, or when other dogs 
are free to make contact with the muzzled dog; IOW he can't be leashed & have loose dogs in his face.


Janey D said:


> I need to get back in touch with Blue Cross... update them on how we're getting on
> & get... more advice from their behaviour expert.


Good idea - keeping them in the loop is really helpful.


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## Lola71 (Feb 23, 2011)

I find my staffie's behaviour quite confusing although i think, from what i've read on here, that she is dog reactive rather than aggressive, but i could be wrong!
She was well socialised from a pup, with puppy classes which we have continued and she is now doing her KCGC gold award and our trainer says she is doing really well. We have another staffie and a pointer in our class, all of whom were in our puppy class and she loves these dogs, when we pull up outside training and she see's them her tail goes crazy and she greets them really nicely. There are two dogs in our group that have joined fairly recently, a little cocker who she is slowly getting used to and a GS pup who she reacts to when the pup is doing anything such as a recall. 
My neighbour has a samoyed and Molly loves him, she hides under his tummy when we see them out walking and is very pleased to see him and takes no notice of any barking he might do in the garden next door but the westie 2 doors up she hates! She barks as soon as she hears her in the garden and goes crazy when we walk past the house if the dog is in the window. 
I have let her off lead a couple of times, or have her on a long line, with her fave toy and her attention has been fully on me and she has ignored all other dogs, including one that was playing fetch quite close to us and i have been able to talk to a friend out walking her dog with molly sat by my side paying little attention to the other dog but have met others that she has been quite reactive towards. 
Phew, that was a long post but think that just about covers what her behaviour is like. 
Does that sound reactive rather than aggressive? I would love to take her training further, possibly with some agility or competition obedience but would love to know whether her random re-activeness can be eradicated further?


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Well i guess i can join this, Tummel is reactive when onlead and when Dan is with us.

If my OH is with us he walks Dan and if we stop a few metres apart then other dogs can say hello safely to both my pups, if Dan and Tummel are within 6ft of each other Tummel will try to attack any dog that comes near.

With my Oh joining the army i will soon be left to hold down a full time job and care for 2 dogs, walking them together is difficult at the moment as unless one is distracted when a dog comes over Tummel will react.

My plan is to make both dogs sit/stay and let them say hello one at a time, this morning we met a lovely westie with no problems as Tummel was busy sniffing some grass when the dog and his owner came over, Dan got to say hello then Tummel said hello...plenty of play bowing but no lunging or snarling 

When it's really busy Tummel will be on his dogmatic as a precaution but i'm hopeful we can fix this...if Tummels alone he's back to being amazing with all dogs(used to just ignore any aggressive/nervous dogs and was very good with all others, entire males included.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Janey D said:


> Thank you. We use a harness already as he has problems with his skin and the harness seems better and kinder to him than the collar.
> 
> Will look at that book too, have heard someone else mention it. We have started clicker training and I like this idea.
> 
> ...


I really hope that you get some good advice today 

I just replied to you on the thread you made yesterday but thought I'd say hello on here too. Has the Blue Cross expert come to your house at all? The biggest break through we had was went our behaviourist came to us and walked Molly for us. I had no idea that I was getting so stressed on the lead but she saw it immediately.


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Hi Molly

I didnt manage to get hold of Blue Cross today so will try again tomorrow. I am not sure how extensive their services are - if they cant offer anything other than telephone advice I am definitely going to get a behaviourist to work with us. At the moment I am not enjoying walking Bertie at all so I need to get something sorted.

We are definitely starting to see a pattern with his behaviour. He just doesnt seem to know what to do when he sees another dog and wants to rush towards them and jump up at them. He never shows any aggression to begin with. Even the most patient dog will freak out at a terrier leaping at them and growl to warn him off. Once the other dog shows any aggression whatsoever he reacts by barking and snapping and doesnt calm down until he has been moved away.

If he isnt allowed to approach the other dog, or we try and curb his enthusiasm then he goes mad with frustration, barking and leaping about. Again no sign of aggression unless the other dog reacts.

We would only approach other dogs when we know the owner, or like yesterday when a loose dog came up to Bertie. I know terriers are reactive and Bertie gets very excited by everything. I really dont think he has been socialised at all.

Whats interesting is that my Mum has twice managed to allow Bertie to have a quick sniff at another dog then moved him on before he got over excited. I suppose I need training as much as my dog does at the moment but I am prepared to learn!

Thanks for your input. This isnt easy and I didnt expect it to be - I just want to get it right for both of us.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Dres can be reactive to some other dogs when on lead.

When off lead, he is brilliant; he has little to no interest in other dogs, and will only acknowledge them if they approach him, and even then, usually with a bark and thats it. Otherwise, he couldn't care less, he's more interested in his ball.

But on lead, some dogs he will bark at. Some dogs he doesn't. Im not sure what the criteria is for it, but he definitely seems to have those he doesn't mind, and those he dislikes. 
And when Dres gets wound up like this by seeing something he wants to get to but can't, he gets frustrated, which is when he starts the lead biting/mouthing on me. I spoke to my breeder who says this is a thing he sees often in dobes doing schutzhund, including relatives of Dresdens: after the bite work, they are so ramped up and excited that they do the same jumping up and mouthing/nipping thing. He says he's seen it in countless dobes, particularly males, and in malinois too.
Its not meant aggressively, there is no growling or snarling, its pure over-exuberance. But obviously its kinda annoying. So I began taking out some chicken, or a tube of primula cheese, and every time I saw a dog approaching in the distance, I'd distract Dres with these.

It seems to be working wonderfully. 
Now, he is more focused on me and the food than on other dogs, and even though he sometimes sees them now, he is more interested in me and the food. To the point where sometimes even when I go out without the food, his behaviour is becoming calmer and better around other on lead dogs, maybe because he's now associating their approach with good things.

Im glad I persevered with the 'walking with food' thing, because my first attempt at it was a disaster (dres just played up more because he knew I had food on me) but it really is helpful now. Wonderful as he is at his commands when I have food, he isn't all that bothered about doing them when I don't, so me saying 'watch me!!!' without food was no competition for the excitement of a passing dog!
So now, its chicken or primula, or both, on every lead walk, and me looking ahead the whole time for approaching dogs!
Because he's a dobe, I think people view his barking at onlead dogs as far more serious than it is; if he were a yorkie, people would laugh and pass by. Because he's a dobe, people really think he's being aggressive, when really, he's just barking out of excitement and frustration at not being able to get to it. He's only a puppy, something else people don't seem to realise.


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Shadowrat, do you do the distraction with food thing while walking past the other dog or do you stop and do it?

I think Bertie would be happier if we did this on the move (if I could make it work) but we were advised to take him to one side, make him sit still, then do watch me.

I have seen a video of a trainer clicker train a dog to do "watch me" while walking which has the benefit of moving the dog out of trouble as well as distracting them. If I stop and do watch me with Bertie you cant always be guaranteed that the other dog owner is going to keep moving.

Any tips would be welcome!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Janey D said:


> I think Bertie would be happier if we did this on the move... but *we were advised
> to take him to one side, make him sit still, then do 'watch me'.*


i'd ignore the advice & do it on the move - with the dog on the OUTside of U, & with U nearest the other dog.

IOW - here is a diagram: X represents a 4-legged dog, Y represents a 2-legged human; 
the path they're on goes up & down the computer screen, & the teams are moving TOWARD each other.

X---Y [team #1] is moving DOWN the screen.
.
.
.
.
.
............... Y----X [team #2] is moving UP the screen.

the 2 humans pass one another while handling their dogs to the ==> outside of the path,
so the person coming down-screen has their dog to their right, & the one moving up-screen also 
has their dog to their right - putting the ppl in the middle. MOVING ALONG BRISKLY helps, too - 
don't dawdle, even jogging is a good idea; the less time U allow the dogs to stare & posture, 
the less time the dogs have to amp-up / get 'charged' in reaction to the other dog's presence.

Food also gets some happy endorphins going in the bloodstream - which is calming.


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## JoJo74 (May 29, 2011)

Janey D said:


> Shadowrat, do you do the distraction with food thing while walking past the other dog or do you stop and do it?
> 
> I think Bertie would be happier if we did this on the move (if I could make it work) but we were advised to take him to one side, make him sit still, then do watch me.
> 
> ...


Janey, i get better results doing it on the move. If i make Duke sit it tends to get him more wound up. By keeping moving the moment is over much quicker and he is calmer afterwards.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Janey D said:


> Shadowrat, do you do the distraction with food thing while walking past the other dog or do you stop and do it?


Usually, on the move. I have done it stationary in the past on, say, busy streets where there isn't enough room to walk along doing it. But generally, if I see the dog in the distance, I get the primula out, offer it to Dres and walk along with him licking at it, or hold some chicken in my hand and lead him along. He rarely acknowledges the other dog when we do this.


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> Usually, on the move. I have done it stationary in the past on, say, busy streets where there isn't enough room to walk along doing it. But generally, if I see the dog in the distance, I get the primula out, offer it to Dres and walk along with him licking at it, or hold some chicken in my hand and lead him along. He rarely acknowledges the other dog when we do this.


Thats brilliant, thank you, I am going to try this. It sounds like your dog reacts in a very similar way to mine. At the moment nothing will distract him if we see another dog but I guess we have to persevere and I think keeping him moving makes more sense.

Bertie goes mad for Peanut Butter - wonder if I could think of a way of using this to begin with!


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

sammiii said:


> Muzzle train? Being thicko here, do u mean a proper full muzzle or the fabric ones that just go over nose? I'm trying to do long line to give her more freedom and shes on a harness, so would a muzzle work? I'm thinking about one of he halti head collars as she really pulls when dogs are near and has nipped my leg twice trying to get free! Anyone done this with their da/dr pooch?


i muzzle blitzen whenever i am out as he has dislikes to certain humans, he is also on a long line and harness and it works well, also dont use a fabric one as they cant pant properly, i used one of they black ones, cant remember its name but its made to allow you to give your doogs treats


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

blitzens mum said:


> i muzzle blitzen whenever i am out as he has dislikes to certain humans, he is also on a long line and harness and it works well, also dont use a fabric one as they cant pant properly, i used one of they black ones, cant remember its name but its made to allow you to give your doogs treats


Is it a Baskerville Ultra Muzzle?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Janey D said:


> Bertie goes mad for Peanut Butter - wonder if I could think of a way of using this to begin with!


one nifty tool is a refillable food-tube - Camping supplies & such carry them.

they're not expensive, i'd buy 2 so that one is clean & ready for use as a spare - 
they can be washed in a dishwasher [good ones!] on the top-rack.

when they're filled & have been used, SQUEEZE OUT the last 1/4-inch so it's 'fresh' at the end, 
with no saliva, WIPE the nozzle, CAP it, & stick it in the frig. Then the stuff in them stays fresh longer.

Dating the tube with masking-tape is a good idea, too - so everyone knows when it was last filled. :thumbsup: 
especially if there's more than one person in the house, or there are dog-walkers or relatives who help 
walk the dogs.  PB will keep fresh for 3-weeks, easy, in the frig; Cream-cheese based licky treats 
are only definitely fresh for about 7-days, & should then be discarded.

Neufchatel cream-cheese AKA low-fat is 1/3 less fat, but still flavorful - mashing a small amount 
of canned or pouch cold-water FISH into a smooth paste, & then stirring it into the low-fat cream cheese 
makes a nice, low-cost, nutritious licky treat. The whole thing stinks of fish, LOL, but it stretches the fish out!

3 parts of low-fat cream cheese to 1 part of mashed-fish is a good ratio, IME. 
smelly enuf to appeal, not too many calories, cuts co$t, too. STORE BRAND Neufchatel is fine - 
just read the ingredients list, just in case, to ensure there are no bad things [Xylitol, preservatives, 
weird stuff...] - it never hurts to be sure. 

for the PB, i'd get NO SALT natural [preferably organic] peanut-butter, & dilute it with low-fat crm chz; 
half-&-half is good to start, but i often go to 1 part PB to 2 parts low-fat crm chz: dogs love it as much 
as the 100% PB, but the fat calories are much reduced, & it's healthier, especially over the long-term.

Diluting the organic with crm-chz also cuts co$t without compromising quality. 
i often use organic Neufchatel, if it's available - if not, i use commercial dairy.

FORGOT: mixing the natural or organic PB with Neufchatel also prevents it from *separating in the tube*.
U can't stir it in the tube, unfortunately.  One downside - but so many advantages!


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Thanks leashed for life - I have never come across those tubes before but Amazon have them in. Its got to be worth a try and I will report back on how I get on.

I am not too worried about the fat content of the peanut butter at the moment - Bertie is underweight and still not in prime condition having lived as a stray for a while - but I guess this is something I will need to watch.
Good point about the salt content too.

I guess there are various kong fillings that would go in a tube too. Will have to experiment.


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## Bramble and Olive (Jun 29, 2012)

This is a really useful thread. I have two dogs. Bramble is reactive and barks at other dogs. It is just noise and when confronted he ducks behind my legs and barks from there. It's not every dog, just in the areas he considers to be his 'patch'. At least it used to be...

Olive is a rescue staffy. She has been with us three months. She is three and has limited history due to being exchanged via facebook a number of times in her short life. The rescue centre told me she 'was great with some dogs' and when she met Bramble it really was love at first sight. However, Bramble's barking has worn off on Olive. Initially all she would do while he was barking was wimper and stay close to me. The last few dogs we have encountered on walks she has savagely snapped her teeth and gone for them, to the point where I would not be confident if an off lead dog came over to us.

I do walk both dogs seperately once a day and together once. I am not joking when I say that Olive and I NEVER meet anyone when we are without Bramble. For this reason she is getting less dog:dog socialisation when she is with me than when she was at the rescue. I am still at the stage where I don't know how she will react to other dogs and we are getting no closer to her being allowed off lead. I have been walking them on the path since the last incident too, rather than the nicer places where off lead dogs go.

I know a lot of Bramble's issues come from me. He was 'attacked' several times on his lead as a puppy so when I see a dog off lead with the owner far behind I know my heart speeds up. Olive's issues seem to be coming from Bramble though. She takes his silly 'Ha ha, you can't get me, I'm hiding behind my Mummy' barking as a cue that something is really wrong. She is not interested in food of any kind when walking.


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## labowner (Jan 8, 2012)

Not had time to read all of this thread yet (but will do). My dog is a rescue which we've had since January. He will be two in November and is a Lab/Weimeraner cross. He had his op last November.:wink:

He is very reactive when we see other dogs and does not seem to be improving. He will pull and growl/show his teeth and if he wasn't on the lead he would, I'm sure, attack. I sometimes have to use all my strength to hold him back and walks are sometimes quite stressful. To me it seems to be a nervous aggression but I don't know whether I should try and calm him or shout at him for his behaviour. He goes to training and the trainer makes us weave between the other dogs and owners, etc. Also he gets the other owners to feed him and their dog. We still have the problem though. 

At home he is as soppy as anything and quite adorable.

Any suggestions as to what we can do would be appreciated.


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## Born2BWild (Jun 6, 2012)

labowner said:


> Not had time to read all of this thread yet (but will do). My dog is a rescue which we've had since January. He will be two in November and is a Lab/Weimeraner cross. He had his op last November.:wink:
> 
> He is very reactive when we see other dogs and does not seem to be improving. He will pull and growl/show his teeth and if he wasn't on the lead he would, I'm sure, attack. I sometimes have to use all my strength to hold him back and walks are sometimes quite stressful. To me it seems to be a nervous aggression but I don't know whether I should try and calm him or shout at him for his behaviour. He goes to training and the trainer makes us weave between the other dogs and owners, etc. Also he gets the other owners to feed him and their dog. We still have the problem though.
> 
> ...


I would highly recommend reading BAT by Grisha Stewart.

Basic BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training) set-up;

1) Choice point (training zone) - dog notices the trigger from a safe distance - so pick a distance where your dog is below threshold and not likely to react. Look for loose lead and being under threshold.

2) Wait for a good choice - "replacement behaviours" being:
- Head turn
- Sniff ground
- Body turn
- Scratch
- Yawn
- Shake-off
- Soften eyes
- Ears to neutral
- Lip-lick
- Play bow

3) Mark - you need to mark the good choice at the precise moment, for example, a clicker and treats.

4) Functional reward - distance from trigger - walk or jog away from the trigger on a loose leash.

5) Optional bonus reward - food or toys - after the functional reward.


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## labowner (Jan 8, 2012)

Thanks for this. I was wondering if anyone was going to mention BAT as I've read and seen a little about it. Sounds confusing but I'm sure I could figure it. Will try and read up more on it.


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## Born2BWild (Jun 6, 2012)

labowner said:


> Thanks for this. I was wondering if anyone was going to mention BAT as I've read and seen a little about it. Sounds confusing but I'm sure I could figure it. Will try and read up more on it.


It's proving successful with my dog reactive terrier - although she used to love dogs and play with them until 10-12 months ago when her behaviour suddenly changed - I just had her tested for any underlying medical conditions and turns out she has a liver disfunction - which one is yet to be found out - and we have reason to believe this triggered the behaviour change. Good luck  I know many people that use the BAT method proved extremely successful x


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

labowner said:


> My dog is a rescue... we've had [him] since January. He'll be 2-YO in November & is a Lab/Weim cross.
> He [was desexed?] last November.:wink:
> 
> He's very reactive when we see other dogs & does not seem to be improving.
> ...


well, even if he's -*not*- nervous,  i can't see shouting being helpful to the situation.

if it takes "all Ur strength", what sort of collar are U using? Collars which tighten & shut off airways, 
or poke the dog - for instance, choke-chains or infinite-slip nylon fabric collars, or prong collars - 
will MAKE IT WORSE, as the dog associates 'i see a dog' / 'a dog is coming closer' with restricted airway 
& / or poking prongs, so that the dog begins to anticipate bad things when other dogs hove in view, 
or their tags jingle when they're still out of sight.  He needs to have happy associations, 
see or hear other dogs & feel, _"oh, joy!... Good things happen when other dogs are around!"_ :thumbup:

that's what B-mod is: Altering an established emotional response, replacing it with another preferred response, 
& practicing that new Conditioned Emotional Response until it's automatic.

a default response, like seeing another dog & instantly turning to U in expectation of a treat or toy, 
is a terrific new pattern to install. 

What collar or harness type does he wear for walks? or do U use more than one kind? 
Does he wear a certain collar for walks, & a different type for training?


labowner said:


> He goes to [group-class] training & the trainer makes us weave between the other dogs & owners, etc.
> Also... the other owners... feed him & their [own] dog. We still have the problem, though.
> At home he's... soppy... & quite adorable.


is he under threshold at training class? Not barking or lunging, he will eat his treats, etc?

so long as he can practice being calm around other dogs, & is calm himself, it's good rehearsal - 
if he's snatching his treats & gobbling them, refuses to take the treats, etc, then it's too much: 
he's too close, it's the wrong dog, something needs to be adjusted.


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## sades (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks for this advice, very helpful.
I have had the same problem with my rescue dog who is 5. She reacts to most dogs, sometimes with aggression (defensive) if they come too close and sometimes just hyperactivity and wanting to jump all over them. 

With some training I now have her looking at me by herslef when she see's some dogs, others it doesnt work for or if they are too close, but she is getting there and am very proud of her as she really tries to look at me for a treat when she sees one. What I found helpful was sometimes on a walk we will see a dog in front of us in the distance and we follow them for a while, not too close but just so she gets used to walking nicely near one. We also walk with calm on lead dogs that we know, apart to start with and by the end of the walk they are walking next to each other. shes never off lead and i dont go anywhere that we may meet off lead dogs, had too many nasty incidents but these controlled situations have helped her realise that she doesnt have to be reactive and has helped her get used to walking calmly near other dogs. Of course we still have bad situations occasionally and that usually because of some thoughtless owner letting their dog charge up to her but those incidents have reduced. Good luck.


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## fabbrindle (Aug 3, 2014)

Malmum said:


> As you may know Flynn is dog reactive. I believe he is fear aggressive as he gets on well with the dogs he actually has met and never reacts if they are behind a gate, at a window or in a car where they can't get to him.
> 
> I hope I'm not alone in sometimes just wanting to give up and not go out at all, sense prevails and I know I can't do this to my boy so I have to sometimes force myself to go out - full of fear and trepidation. Afraid I can't "live in the moment" and def do dwell on the bad walks, even sometimes anticipating what doesn't even happen. :crazy: I know Flynns problem is me and my fear of a fight and I feel ashamed that I cannot overcome it and be sensible but have been trying now for nearly four years and just as we get there something happens and puts ME way back again. I have even considered hypnotherapy to help me let go of the past when I had a dog killed by another, as I think this is where my problem lies and I have frightened Flynn with my own fear.
> 
> ...


I feel a bit like you Malmum. My dog's angst is mainly coming from me. I lost confidence in him when he started to become protective of me, dogs and people. Actually in the home is fine, but he doesn't like encroaches or dawdlers outside on the pavement. The pavements are another matter. Sending the dog away for socialisation seems ideal, but my dog does have the opportunity to socialise when with someone else. So the fault is mine. I've had a session with a trainer (more o follow), I will get over my fear and begin to enjoy the walks with my dog. It's good to know other people go through the same stuff.


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## Barcode (Mar 7, 2011)

Re-joining to mostly vent.

We're now about to see a behaviorist for Scrabble, and have taken the step of muzzling her in high-traffic dog areas.

This is NOT because she tends to zoom off and attack, but rather, because she tends to react once a dog zooms over to her and gets in her face. I have tried and tried asking people to recall their dogs. I have a bright yellow lead that says NERVOUS. But there is always one bloody owner that just doesn't care, and her responses seem to be escalating. There is no need to risk anything with another dog through no fault of its own.

We don't have a big problem passing dogs anymore. It is just when they enter her 'bubble.' Also, when she stays in kennels there are reports of her zooming around and playing with the other dogs! She's been about 5-6 times now and has never had an altercation which makes me strongly suspect the main factor is US, perhaps nerves.

We have temporarily removed her from agility. I'm not convinced that the class was a good fit for her. Last week, OH took her, there were nine new dogs of all sizes which meant a lot of waiting around, then, as Scrabble was sitting ready to do her first jump, a little Spaniel ran up to her and S went mental. Now, I can well imagine what happened (excited at going round, it all spilled over, too many new dogs ...), but still. There was no bite, but OH said she seems to react with an intensity that was not there before.

She used to warn other dogs off by moving, then a growl, then another growl, and finally a chase. Somewhere along the way she has the lost the ability to speak 'dog' normally and goes from 0-60 in an instant if a dog gets in her face. At the same time, she is MUCH better just strolling around on-lead and won't randomly lunge.

Plan is to work with the behaviorist and revisit the agility question in time. For now, I want her a bit more settled. I thought she was. Last week we went to Duncombe Park agility with several hundred dogs. Not one lunge or growl. Just walking around normally with a little bit of space.

It's all a bit of a headache


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Barcode: don't know if this is any use, and I'm not an expert, by any means!

I also have a reactive dog who's almost 3 now. I have been working with the problem for over 2 years and progress is erratic. Sometimes it goes backwards. But I have noticed a difference since I took advice from a behaviourist/trainer, who I know well (I've taken all my dogs to her for their good citizens).
I feel in retrospect, the biggest mistakes I made were in sitting him when strange dogs approached and trying to, always unsuccessfully, get his attention and constantly "testing" him.

The main changes I have made, is to stop walking where there are many strange dogs. This means 7:30 walks on the beach and walks is unpopular woodland areas, but what a difference in MY stress levels! I now enjoy my walks, where before I dreaded them. I also realised, thanks to the good people here, that I hadn't been *training* him, I had actually been *testing* him every time we went out. That way, he was just stressed all the time.

I have also given up on agility. It is much too stimulating and exciting an environment for him. Although he enjoys it in the garden, or when I am with friends who's dogs he knows (we have a little private "club") I rarely do it. I have stopped thinking "when I start serious agility with him...." I've put that right out my head. Instead, also suggested by a friend, I have entered him in an introductory obedience competition. We are never going to get anywhere and I doubt I'll even attempt the group stay, but it satisfies my need to do "stuff"! And the introductory level is all onlead. 

I have also started classes with my behaviourist/instructor. The class were briefed as to his behaviour and asked to act quickly if I asked for more space.
The class have been brilliant! It was a shakey start: some weeks better than others, but today we even managed to sit with the others- just at the end and a little way off. I have to constantly keep his attention (smoked sausage!) but today he didn't even react inappropriatly when the dog next to us started grumbling at the Munster (poor Munster. Duke hates him too!). He just looked and then looked back at me for some sausage! Also today- FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, looked at the Munster and looked back to me, in a relaxed way. He has never been able to even glance his way without kicking off. This, I feel was a major breakthrough.

Don't get me wrong, he did kick off a couple of times, but with much less "intent".

I suppose what I'm trying to say is keep at it. Don't ever give up on your reactive dog. The work you put in WILL pay off. Maybe not today, next week, or even, next year, but it will.

:thumbsup:


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## Rahoulb (Dec 17, 2013)

Just a quick success story (although I don't want to jinx it) - Winston's a 3 1/2 year old staff we got 6 months ago from the RSPCA. 

He was terrified when we got him and when I tried to take him to class he barked the place down. He would snap when other dogs approached him and was generally impossible to be near other animals (or people he didn't know). 

Over the last six months I've been busy training loose-lead walking (using a lead round my waist for several weeks so any time I stopped it was quite a definite action, and so I didn't transmit of my anxiety to him), recall (whistle and a variety of high value treats in lots of situations) and counter-conditioning (sticking sausages and cheese in his mouth at the first sight of another dog, regardless of his reaction). 

For the last month or so he has seemed much more relaxed around other dogs (the behaviourist says he's gone from 90% stressed to 70% excited). 

And today, I was chucking a ball for him in the park, a malamute came charging over and he was absolutely fine with the visitor ... until the malamute tried to take his ball and there was a quick snap. Later on I threw the ball for Winston, he picked it up and then decided to head over to the malamute (to show off?) - three pips on the whistle and Winston turned on his heels and came straight back to me. 

As I say, I don't want to jinx it, but just two months ago I was thinking this was a never-ending task, yet today I'm beaming. Now to sort out his issues with cars and strangers!


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## Barcode (Mar 7, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> I feel in retrospect, the biggest mistakes I made were in sitting him when strange dogs approached and trying to, always unsuccessfully, get his attention and constantly "testing" him.


Something has just clicked, as sitting is what I do, in the belief that I am rewarding for calm behavior. Thinking about it, I bet she's thinking 'I'm going to watch that nasty thing approach and start if it comes too close' - thoughts which wouldn't occur so much were we simply walking past. I'm going to do the latter more and only sit when there is no choice.



> I have also given up on agility. It is much too stimulating and exciting an environment for him.


This, I'm probably going to have to reluctantly conclude as well. Shame, because she was probably the best in the class! But there is just too much going on which sends her over threshold. Before this, she did some reasonably advanced obedience and became used to the dogs in the class. I guess, because she's a clever little thing, I'd like her to be doing *something*, but it won't be competitively. The environment doesn't seem a good match for her at that level.

The behaviorist is recommended, only uses positive methods etc. Although we both have a reasonable understanding of dog psychology, we should benefit from a structured plan rather than feeling like we're muddling through.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I find it's really helpful to share stories- the horrors as well as the successes- as it lets you feel less alone and helps keep your dogs reactivity in perspective. 

When I'm feeling particularly down about Dukes behavioir, I like to list all the things I like about him. Then i realise there more to like than dislike! And also that, if I lived in the depths of nowhere there wouldn't even be a problem!

The hardest part, for me, has been accepting that all the things I had planned to do with him: agility, flyball, Therapet, visiting my mum in her care home with him, working him as a gundog, are no longer possible, and trying to find different things I can do. It's kinda sad. I've always done tons of stuff with my dogs, and I've known that Duke would possibly be my last puppy, so I had BIG PLANS! Which is actually a bit unfair on them. 

I've had dogs for over 50 years, but Duke has taught me more than all the others put together. My experience with him has encouraged me to take up formal qualifications in dog training-something I'd have never done if he had been a more straightforward dog.

So, it's not all bad.


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## PennyGSD (Apr 16, 2012)

It's been a while since I posted on this forum, but some of you may remember me from previous tales of my DA/FA/DR dog.

We are making progress. My OH and I laugh about how many times we say this to each other as it's been about 18 months and the progress has been so tiny that I'm not sure anyone else would be able to see it.

We have two dogs we rescued as a bonded pair from a Romanian pound - came into a UK foster home for 3 months before we took them on.

Sam - about 3-4 now - lovely and sociable with other dogs, although gets very nervous over initial greetings if there's more than one. Would prefer to run away from confrontation, but seems to bring out the best in other dogs he meets. His goofing about and rolling around on his back, tongue lolling out and huge paws waving in the air seems to win over even the most aloof dog - I hasten to add this is only ever with the other dog owners consent. His recall from other dogs is non-existent so is only off-lead in secure areas. Nervous on initial greeting with people, dislikes children, but once he's met adults he'll allow them to fuss him forever.

Tiggy - about 4-5 now. Not sociable at all. Very nervous with other people. Apart from her foster parents and us, she's not entirely comfortable with anyone else. Appears to hate all other dogs. Loud, frenzied barking and lunging at the mere sight of another dog and the few that she has met - family dogs under controlled circumstances, or loose dogs bounding over ignoring her threats - has been genuinely aggressive towards.

So, we simply plod along walking at unsociable times of the day, constantly scanning the horizon for other dogs, never walking down narrow paths where we can't control the distance between us and other dogs. Constantly training in 'leave' or 'watch me'. Click/_*Good Girl*_ anytime she even glances in the direction of another dog without reacting.

There's been tiny improvements. On good days we can walk within 20feet of another dog and keep her attention on us by rushing in with the click/reward before she has time to register the other dog. But only if the other dog is calm, and Sam isn't caterwhauling to go and greet. But only on good days, and only calm dogs, and only if it's only one dog per walk.

I read a lot around the subject and I'm starting to understand her threshold. What makes sense to me is that for example maybe her threshold is a 10. Certain situations have a stress value. Say, a squirrell might be a 3, a cat might be a 6 and a calm dog 20 feet away is a 9. So if we only see the calm dog, then she remains at 9 on the stress level, so under threshold. However, if we've seen a squirrell already, that adds up to 12 - so over her threshold. Or if we see 2 calm dogs in a row, that adds up to 18 - again over her threshold of 10. However, the tiny improvement is the fact that a single calm dog is under threshold at all!

We still very occasionally attend socialising walks where we can trail along behind a group, keeping to a distance that she's comfortable with, and the last couple of times out she's got very close to the group. Kicks off immediately if she sees Sam socialising though so we may have to alternate them. Unfortunately these are only every 3 weeks and sod's law that quite often we can't actually make the walks for months at a time.

Something else I picked up from here is perhaps why she's like she is with other dogs. Maybe she associates other dogs with the Romanian Streets/Pound. Quite obviously not a good experience for her. We really must try and make some fantastic associations with other dogs, poor love.

Thanks for reading if you've come this far


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## zoemon (Jun 29, 2014)

BamBam has been with us for a year now, came from a rescue where he was with his mum, presume they'd not been separated his whole life (he's about 3ish) 
He is lead reactive, its pretty awful, we've had many tears and threatenings of returning him but we just can't, we're not quitting on him, and his good points really do outweigh his bad. We are able to have him off lead, which is great.

We have started BAT and its *AMAZING* but hard to get motivated to go out and hunt down places where we will see loads of dogs. Our local field is so handy and the dogs we see are ones that BamBam ignores when off lead, so its the easy option.......... (not helping I know!!)
And when we do venture out further, we are really struggling to find somewhere suitable with other dogs who are totally under control, the last thing I want is an offlead dog bounding up to him and completely ruining the session. Plus, its not fair on 'stalking' a dog and owner who has no idea what you are doing and is probably quite weirded out by someone following them step by step around a park.......

We don't have a dog friend who can help who BamBam doesn't know, and we haven't been able to make any friends out walking due to keeping him away from other dogs the majority of the time as he is temperamental at giving a nice greeting, so we generally keep moving if we do get near to a dog, quick sniff and off again.

I know there are loads of other dogs out there with similar issues, but it feels sometimes that we're the only one - however, if the other owners are walking at ridiculous times to miss seeing any other dogs, or not even walking their dogs, I can understand why I don't see any.

I don't get worried about him causing a scene now, even in the vets the other day, I apologised to everyone before I brought BamBam in through the middle of their polite quiet dogs - I like to think that other dog owners would give us all a pat on our backs for doing what we can - and I know one day, despite probably never sitting politely in a vet waiting room, I have hope we'll be able to walk past another dog without a reaction, but its just going to take time and patience and practise.


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Hi all

I havent been around here for a long time. We rescued our terrier nearly 3 years ago. He had a lot of issues, some of which we have resolved, many we havent. He is very reactive towards other dogs and I had some success with group socialisation walks with a local trainer. However we were struggling to get to the sessions and things got worse.

Some time ago we met a lady and her dog. I broke the "quick sniff and move on" (the dog, not me) rule instilled in me by the trainer. The dog owner started chatting and suddenly the dogs started scuffling, then Bertie grabbed the other dog by the ear and wouldnt let go. It felt like hours. No harm was done but I was so embarrassed and this destroyed my already shaky confidence.

Now I walk Bertie down the fields behind our house where no-one else goes. I feel totally out of my depth and if I am honest I think we made a huge mistake getting such a challenging dog. My hunsband thinks that I am the problem, a but he rarely takes Bertie out!

We have talked about moving house but I just cant imagine living anywhere where there are lots of dogs around. I feel a bit pathetic and I know that I need training as much as the dog. Just dont know what to do.


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## Rahoulb (Dec 17, 2013)

It's easy to say, but it sounds like it was just a setback - as you say, you missed a rule (one that I am thinking of imposing on myself) and that's what caused it. 

Could you go back to the trainer? I find it useful just to get a confidence boost and get someone else to point out the things I'm slipping on and give me a pat on the head and a biscuit for the things I'm doing right.


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Thanks and yeah I can relate to the whole pat on the head and biscuit thing! Sometimes it's just a bit of reassurance I need. I am going to get in touch with the trainer and find out about the socialisation walks, if nothing else it's great to meet up with other people who have less than perfect dogs!

Feeling a bit better tonight.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

zoemon said:


> BamBam has been with us for a year now, came from a rescue where he was with his mum, presume they'd not been separated his whole life (he's about 3ish)
> He is lead reactive, its pretty awful, we've had many tears and threatenings of returning him but we just can't, we're not quitting on him, and his good points really do outweigh his bad. We are able to have him off lead, which is great.
> 
> We have started BAT and its *AMAZING* but hard to get motivated to go out and hunt down places where we will see loads of dogs. Our local field is so handy and the dogs we see are ones that BamBam ignores when off lead, so its the easy option.......... (not helping I know!!)
> ...


OH god this sounds just like us!
I had my lil boy from 9 months old and he was never socialised (or walked ). I've now had him 10 months and he is only slightly better than he was, mainly due to me learning what techniques work. We are having much more successes now. 
He is *excited reactive, not aggressive*. He wants to go and play with every dog, but he has no manners and he is too much for most dogs. Which in itself could cause a fight.

I know it's going to take years to cure him, if ever. But now, although I have hope, I am prepared for the fact that he may always be a bit reactive.
For the most part, if the dogs are 15 metres or more away he is fine and we don't get a bark. I take him out early in the morning and only usually see one other dog who is on the lead (I think he's on lead because of the wildlife because he's not reactive at all).

We don't know anyone round here with dogs either so can't train him in that way. Only my parents who live far away, but he is totally different with their dogs, because he knows them and they get on great. When he knows a dog, he's fine. He used to have a Mastiff friend at our caravan last year too.
But the problem is in every day life, you don't know the other dog, they could be elderly,had a recent op,reactive themselves etc etc...just too many what ifs to let him get on with it.

I have the same thing as you at the Vets, we check in, then wait outside and if it's busy, taken through the back, entrance!

It does feel like you are the only one as everyone else's dogs seem so perfect, although there are 2 Jack Russells round here that are very reactive, but it doesn't make you feel any better, honestly.

Not sure what BAT is, I'll have a google


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Hi everyone,

Just to update. I am going to make a new "Dog reactive" thread tomorrow, so we can update it and start a new thread as I appreciate this one is quite old now. Had some questions/advice I wanted to ask


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Pupcakes,
i thought _"making this a sticky [post]" _meant, theoretically, it could go on forever.
Is there a limit on the lifetime of stickies?...
.
Yes, this thread was begun in 2012, but there was a significant gap when no-one
posted to it, AND it has some excellent advice - in the prior posts.
If we let this sticky go dead, all that valuable advice is lost from any "new" thread.
.
There are stickies on the forum that are 6 & more years old - that doesn't mean
they're outdated, it means they have a lot of info to offer, right?
.
.
..


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Just got a notification about this thread. Haven't got back in to the habit of PF since format changed! Below is my post from June 2012


Bagrat said:


> Thought I would shout help, on day one of walking my fear aggressive 12 month old rescue, Jackson. I don't want to make things worse. We had a good walk this morning in harness + collar linked to harness by loose extension intended for linking halti to collar (have not even thought of halti yet). Reason - he is an escape artist! If he sees another dog he starts lunging barking then backing out of harness in a flash. Met a couple of dogs at a distance this am, bad -but not awful awful. I tried to choose quiet times but tonight saw a dog over the road and major episode All I did was get down by him and hold him really tight as I do my grand daughter when she's having a dicky fit. It did scare me though as he had slipped the harness and only the collar was preventing escape
> In one day he has learnt " look" (my word for watch) already knew sit so eager to learn.
> Not interested in food rewards when out even for peeing with no other obvious distraction. Interested to read Leashed for Life's suggestion of close fitting tee shirt. Are "thunder vests or similar" any good for fear aggression? My biggest prob today ( tomorrow it could all change) is keeping him from escaping collar and harness. I shall just walk him on the grass behind our house for now till someone explains what to do next. It feels like chicken and egg. I have read all through this thread and it gives me great hope for the future. My feeling is I have to concentrate on basic recall and "look" commands and avoid any dog contact until he is settled in and knows us better. Baby steps. I feel that every contact with another dog will make things worse till we've mastered the basics between us. Is there a style of harness more secure than another? he is a lovely gentle boy in the house and garden with occasional puppy type "zoomies!!"
> Will be seeking professional help once I've taken advice on who is recommended from vet.


Update. Well Jackson has always been eager to learn, I contacted a fab behaviourist and a lot of time was spent on basics, making J's life interesting, settling on mat, relaxation protocol etc. last year I did an online course "Your End of the Leash" which was extremely helpful. He's learnt lots of basic tricks too. Jackson still reacts to other dogs on lead but a combination of management, counter conditioning, games, letting him look ( if far enough away!) at the dog and reward for that.
He still reacts to neighbours dogs through the fence in spite of much work, but he is much less vocal, just tearing about ( not ideal in small garden covered with gravel!)
Turns out he was 12 months older than RSPCA thought when I checked his chip details, so presumably 18 months mainly caged in an unsuitable home. I'm happy to take it slow as I can see a lot of improvement. He is not comfortable with people he doesn't know - looks like enthusiastic greeting but I think fear related. He mouths when greeting unknown folk - well he would if he was allowed ,which he isn't. Greetings are carefully managed with lead, harness and kong or ttreats. Then often asks to go to a different room.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Bagrat,
thanks for the update, & kudoes to U both on the improvements! 
Very well done, IMO.
.
Who offered the on-line "Ur end of the leash" course? Was it very
expensive? -- I'm always looking for good learning opportunities,
especially for novice dog-owners.
Do U think it would be novice-friendly, or is it more for savvy owners
& trainers?
Thanks in advance for any info,
- terry
.
.
.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> Who offered the on-line "Ur end of the leash" course? Was it very
> expensive? -- I'm always looking for good learning opportunities,
> ...


Oops should have said Your end of the lead!!
Terry the course leader is Janet Finlay, Canine confidence. based in West Yorkshire. People all over the world have done it
http://canineconfidence.com/yel2015/. She runs the course once a year. Hope the link works. Jackson stars at 4.04 !! having TTouch
In 2014 it cost $145
It is fine for novices but there were some trainers on our course as well. The participants are split into small groups to share their progress, helpful for those short on time as you only have a few folk to keep up with but you are free to visit and comment other groups as well as your own. Hope this helps
Wendy


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
Thanks, Wendy - sounds excellent. 
.
I just met a new client [dogwalking] with 2 Boxers, both n/M.
.
Both dogs are described as "dog-reactive", tho i'd describe the white dog,
their personal pet, as over-enthusiastic - he wants to meet EVERYone,
as if he's canvassing for votes, & gets frustrated when he's not allowed to
approach.
He does get whiny, stare, stalk, or yap at dogs he doesn't like - but dislike
of a few individuals isn't "reactivity".
His full brother is a dark red-brown, blk mask - he's a pudge, the white dog
is very fit. The red-fawn dog is unaccustomed to a leash, reacts to other
dogs who get too close // approach face-on, or are intrusive.
.
Until i see it, i can't say whether the red Boxer is normal or reactive - i'll let
U know, either way; tomorrow is our 1st walk. It's spozed to be hot & sticky,
i'll collect them before lunch, & we'll try to stay in shade - everything here is
paved, unfortunately.
.
.
.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Will be interested to hear how your assessment goes. I still struggle with reading dog body language. Especially as it needs to be done quickly in the real world. Would love to do Sarah Whiteheads dog body language course but it's nearly £300


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> tho i'd describe the white dog,
> their personal pet, as over-enthusiastic - he wants to meet EVERYone,
> as if he's canvassing for votes, & gets frustrated when he's not allowed to
> ...


This is Muttly! You have just described him to a T!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Per his owners, Ulysses especially likes *small* dogs - not as snacks,
as playmates; that's terrific, as in this urban area, there are LOADS of
20# & under dogs, & i'd hate to wrestle with a 60# dog who wanted to
murder each one we saw. That wouldn't be enjoyable, tho of course i'd
work on it.
I saw for myself they were right about kids, during our brief cruise of the
neighborhood - he adores them, & has trouble waiting to meet them.
His stub tail twitches madly, he shivers with delight, & gets whiny when
he's asked to sit & wait.
I think he'll be a fun dog.
.
I did ask if they have a harness; they walk both dogs on prong collars,
which of course aren't on my tool-list. Thankfully they've got Kurgo seat
belt harnesses, which will double nicely as walking harnesses, & even
have a front ring on the chest pad - perfect to restrain an excited, happy
dog without any pain. ::ThumbsUp::
.
.
.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Bet the dogs are pleased their guardians chose you, if only to get rid of prong collars!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
We had a lovely walk, thankfully it wasn't quite as hot today [93 &
sticky yesterday; high of 88 today], plus i got him out at 11-AM &
we lucked out - it was cloudy, YAY!
.
Saw a dozen dogs, from toy to 80#; no lunges, barks, nor even whines.
Saw abt 8 kids - infants, toddlers, & under-10-YOs - & again, he didn't
pull, jump, bark, whine, etc.
Mouth closed, ears fwd, interested but calm. No problem. 
.
I wonder if they see him not As He Is, but as he *was?...*
Virtually untrained on arrival, he was a major pain in the car: barking,
drooling, & shaking, lunging at passing cars, wouldn't lie down or sit.
Now, 10-mins after getting into the car, he's asleep.
.
He wasn't accustomed to a leash, & didn't know how to walk in approx
pace with a handler. Now, he walks easily on a loose leash.
.
I dont think they "need" prongs at all, on either dog; front-clip harnesses
give equally good if not better control, without making any negative / bad
associations.
I was luring, clicking, & rewarding no-vocal-cue Sit, Stand, Down, while
we sat in the outdoor mall. He did fine on hand-signals; the most hand-
cues needed before compliance was only 2, & that was SIT from DOWN,
always a confusing move. U could see him hesitate & think furiously, then.
But he got it - i let him think, & he did it.
.
I think i can have him on hand-cues & 85% consistent in a week or 2,
depending on how many X per week i get him out. We'll see.
.
.
.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Were you handling him or alongside guardian? Just thinking of guardians feelings winging their way down leash!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Were you handling him, or alongside guardian? 
Just thinking of guardian's feelings winging their way down leash!!
.
.
I originally interviewed with them back in February - they hired someone else,
who recently moved out of the area. So i met the dog then, & the husband -
watched the dog, watched hubby handle, then i handled him. (At the time, i'd
have described him as 'excitable' & semi-trained.)
Then they hired the other dog-walker, & i was out of contact.
.
Along with the other walker, meantime, they dropped him at a trainer's 
facility, 2 or 3 times a week; the man trains dogs in RingSport & Schutz,
& places his bite-sport dogs with police & other security-type handlers.
[I'd bet that's where the shock collar came from - just a hunch.]
.
To say that's overkill for pet-dog training is understatement, IMO.
.
Now they drop off the relative's dog [Ulysses' brother] to the same bite-
sport trainer. I'm sure it's costing a pretty penny.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Oops! - forgot to mention that THIS time, i met hubby & wife both, plus 
both dogs - they're not sure how long Brother Ishmael will be staying.
[Depends - on how long it takes relative to recover from health crisis.]
.
.
Meantime, here's Ulysses looking moderately fit, yesterday-PM.
.















.
.


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## kipling2536 (Jul 15, 2015)

Hi all

Today is our first week's anniversary of rehoming the two doggies in my profile pic, Bertie 4 left and Rory 5 right.
They are rescues.

Rory is very shy but such a sweet nature, Bertie makes up for both of them, he is excited, bubbly and energetic. They lived together for four years so when we initially went to look at Rory, we decided we couldn't separate them so we adopted them both.

Rory is an absolute delight on the lead. Today has been the worse day for walking them round the streets. Bertie only has to see a dog in the distance and starts barking, getting completely carried away, jumping up and down, he's beside himself. My husband had this this morning and I had it at lunchtime. 

I grew up with dogs, often two at a time so I'm not unused to it but they have been from puppies, never older dogs. 

They were in a house with just them after being street dogs for a while and at the fostering house where we got them from they were 2 of around 20 dogs.

This thread is really good. Reading about on and off lead experiences had been enlightening but now we're not looking forward to the walk tonight, and are anxious to let them off the lead.

Is it too early days to expect too much? I have tried to contact a local dog training class but haven't heard back yet.I'm wondering if some socialisation in a friends back garden off lead so that the area is contained is an idea? We are not near a park so pavement walking is what we do from day to day at the moment.

Any advice or feedback appreciated - thank you.

Amanda


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kipling2536 said:


> Today is our first week's anniversary of rehoming the two doggies in my profile pic...
> They are rescues.
> .


.
.
I know this isn't what U asked for, & don't worry, i'll get to the meat of the post soon. 
Just as an aside, U didn't rehome them, unless U placed them in someone else's home;
i think U're saying U adopted them a week ago? -- if i got it right. [Please do correct me
if i have the wrong end of the stick entirely, & feel free to tell me i'm an idiot if i did.]
.
.
2ndly, for ANYone reading this, please please don't refer to the dog U adopted by saying,
_*"I rescued [her or him]..."*_ when U actually *adopted *her or him,
from a shelter, or via Craigslist / Gumtree, or just plain bought her or him from a breeder
as a retired [ex-]stud or [ex-]dam, or got Ur dog from their 2nd, 3rd, or Nth home.
Shelters & rescue groups have their feelings hurt when ppl say, "I *rescued* my dog from so-
&-so", as if s/he were suffering horrors there, & U swooped in like a comic-book hero to car-
ry the poor dear doggie off.
Unless U literally took Ur dog off the street as a stray, or took her/him from a genuinely awful
situation, U did not "rescue" that dog - U adopted the dog, & while it's wonderful that U did,
s/he wasn't suffering.
Shelter & rescue folks get very upset by this unintended insult to their caregiving ethics.
They work hard to provide safe places & decent food & clean water & shelter, & it's hurtful to
hear that folks "rescued" their pets from U, U cruel wicked person - _"how *could* U?!..."_
[Hope that makes sense.]
.
.
QUOTE,
Rory is very shy, but has such a sweet nature, while Bertie... is excited, bubbly & energetic. They lived together
for 4-years... we decided we couldn't separate them, [&] adopted... both.
Rory is an absolute delight on the lead... [However], *Bertie only has to see a dog in the distance, & he begins*
*to bark, gets completely carried away, jumps up & down - he's beside himself. *
...
I grew up with dogs, often two at a time... but they [were reared] from puphood, never [adopted as] older dogs.
... at the foster's house ... they were [just] 2 of around 20 dogs.
... we're not looking forward to the walk tonight, and are anxious to let them off the lead.
Is it too early... to expect too much?

I've tried to contact a local dog-training class, but [no reply] yet. I wondered if [socializing with other dogs]
in a friend's back garden *off-lead*, so that the [dogs are] contained, is a [good] idea?
We're not near a park, so [we walk them along the sidewalk] ... at the moment.

Any advice or feedback appreciated - thank you.
...
.
The more Bertie practices this reflex, the worse it will get - so stop practicing. ;-}}
.
First thing, i'd suggest post #22 of the Dog Body-langage sticky; it's all about calmatives.
Both dogs can profit by them: to help Rory feel more relaxed & less anxious, & help Bertie
be less intense & reduce his arousal.
For Bertie i'd specifically suggest a Calming-Cap to fuzz-out the visual stimuli of other dogs,
plus an Xtra-snug / stretchy T-shirt or an Anxiety-Wrap [for the right size, measure his torso,
& make the tape or string snug: flatten his hair. Measure body volume, not "body + coat"].
DAP pump-spray would probably be beneficial for both.
.
I wouldn't suggest turning them loose with other dogs in a fenced area; Rory would probly
be overwhelmed, & Bertie would be insane with excitement. Besides, if things went pear-
shaped, what would U do to get them out of it?...
.
Instead, i'd suggest small steps, frequent *distant *exposure, & lots of happy associations.
.
Food BTW is calming; even sniffing food is calming, if he's too excited / upset / __?__ to
eat; *back-up, *tho, if any dog is disinterested in food s/he normally loves. It's a sign that
they are over their threshold. ;-)
.
.
.


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## kipling2536 (Jul 15, 2015)

Apologies for using any incorrect terminology, no offence meant. we adopted two dogs from a dog rescue charity.

I will look into those calmatives, thank you very much.
Amanda


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
here's a link for the "calmatives" post -
*http://tinyurl.com/yc9gdx8*
*.*
I'd suggest 3 calmatives simultaneously - 1 via each sensory route, tactile [touch], oral [ingest],
& olfactory [scent or inhale]. That allows whichever one that works fastest, to help potentiate the
other 2 - thus more bang for the buck. ;-)
.
Some require conditioning: scents, any pressure garment, 'soothing' sounds, etc. They must be
consistently paired with feelings of security, contentment, happy, etc.
Others are immediate use, no pre-conditioning needed [DAP, food... any enjoyable contact U al-
ready know the dog loves, such as chest-rubs or belly-rubs or butt-scritchies...].
.
other helpful options:
* Click to Calm is a marvelous How-To manual for DIY behavior-mod. Many useful tips for dealing
with various specific issues. [video snippets on UTube, too].

* Control Unleashed, see UTube for many videos, & there's a book, too.
.
BTW, books can be borrowed from libraries or other dog-owners, if $$ is an issue.
.
Please let us know how both dogs get on?  We'd love to know - at least, i know i would! :-D
.
.
.


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## dogcompanion (Jun 30, 2015)

Well don't let this thread die again. It been a very good read so far


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## BonsaiSpringer (Dec 23, 2016)

Hi All

Just joined the forums and great to see a thread about this and not feel so alone. My Springer Spaniel Bonsai is 5 years old and he is dog reactive but not all of the time. He never barks and lunges on the lead and is excited and happy to see dogs. Until sometimes occasionally in what seems like a nice interaction he just decides to try and go for them. He never digs his teeth in its mostly mouthing and bullying but it got to the point where it was every dog he met. We took him to a behaviourist who taught us positive reinforcement methods and he has been a lot better but it just gets so hard sometimes. Even his behaviourist has said he is a complicated dog. Its typically around small dogs as she says he becomes very aware of his size etc. and can bully a little We have also identified that he doesn't like his space being invaded and gets cross if dogs don't respect that or lunge and bound over to him. The final thing is he is possessive over food and toys. We are working on it especially with his food but its going to take time. The hardest thing some times is how other people react / act. Bonsai was socialised well as a puppy and trained throughout his life regularly walking 5 times a week with 5-6 other dogs, he got attacked and both of us got hurt and it changed him. Now I feel certain owners and members of my own family look at me like its my fault. Prime example walking with Bonsai last night. I take him on a long line so I can control his greetings and interactions make it positive and with any negative signs remove him. A dog bounds over and I am about to let them greet then another dog bounds with a tennis ball in his mouth which gets dropped on the floor. Knowing his triggers I bring Bonsai by me and speak to the owner of the first dog saying look he is a perfectly friendly dog most times but he is possessive and it can make him reactive so I need to keep him back. The owner cut me the worst look and said nothing and walked off. To me I am being responsible ensuring no harm comes to my dog or his but the assumption is made that I have this evil dog and its all my fault. Its really hard to not get depressed about it! But I just walked away did some great training and heal work with Bonsai and enjoyed a reaction free walk.

Going to keep on training and introducing him with positive interactions and try and stay motivated and positive because he needs that but do you guys ever just wish that people around could be just that little more supportive and not assume its all your fault!?!!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Don't cut yourself up about this. You have been working hard with your dog and doing your very best to control him, it's particularly annoying when other people don't control their dogs especially when you ask them politely to do so.

Temperament is an inherited trait, good and bad, so it could well be that your pups sire or dam had similar issues. My last retriever wasn't very friendly to other dogs at all and I did think it was me that had caused this. It wasn't until I came across owners who had got their dogs from the same breeder and were having similar problems, that I realised she couldn't help being the dog she was.

Keep up the good training and try to avoid other dogs with her if you can. There are specially coloured leads or jackets that your dog could wear to warn other owners that your dog needs space, but many people haven't any idea what they mean and continue to allow their dogs to approach all and sundry. I shouldn't bother to even explain, just ask that they keep their dog away from yours, make up an infectious disease that's usually pretty effective.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

BonsaiSpringer said:


> Hi All
> 
> Just joined the forums and great to see a thread about this and not feel so alone. My Springer Spaniel Bonsai is 5 years old and he is dog reactive but not all of the time. He never barks and lunges on the lead and is excited and happy to see dogs. Until sometimes occasionally in what seems like a nice interaction he just decides to try and go for them. He never digs his teeth in its mostly mouthing and bullying but it got to the point where it was every dog he met. We took him to a behaviourist who taught us positive reinforcement methods and he has been a lot better but it just gets so hard sometimes. Even his behaviourist has said he is a complicated dog. Its typically around small dogs as she says he becomes very aware of his size etc. and can bully a little We have also identified that he doesn't like his space being invaded and gets cross if dogs don't respect that or lunge and bound over to him. The final thing is he is possessive over food and toys. We are working on it especially with his food but its going to take time. The hardest thing some times is how other people react / act. Bonsai was socialised well as a puppy and trained throughout his life regularly walking 5 times a week with 5-6 other dogs, he got attacked and both of us got hurt and it changed him. Now I feel certain owners and members of my own family look at me like its my fault. Prime example walking with Bonsai last night. I take him on a long line so I can control his greetings and interactions make it positive and with any negative signs remove him. A dog bounds over and I am about to let them greet then another dog bounds with a tennis ball in his mouth which gets dropped on the floor. Knowing his triggers I bring Bonsai by me and speak to the owner of the first dog saying look he is a perfectly friendly dog most times but he is possessive and it can make him reactive so I need to keep him back. The owner cut me the worst look and said nothing and walked off. To me I am being responsible ensuring no harm comes to my dog or his but the assumption is made that I have this evil dog and its all my fault. Its really hard to not get depressed about it! But I just walked away did some great training and heal work with Bonsai and enjoyed a reaction free walk.
> 
> Going to keep on training and introducing him with positive interactions and try and stay motivated and positive because he needs that but do you guys ever just wish that people around could be just that little more supportive and not assume its all your fault!?!!


There is a group on Facebook called Reactive Dogs UK that I think you might find a great help......


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## Cheznous (Jan 3, 2017)

Good morning,

We adopted a lovely little beagle this week. He is such a sweet lovingly boy with humans, but is very lead reactive. As he's a rescue dog I'm unsure of his entire history but to me it appears that he is frightened of other dogs. He came from a foster home and he was absolutely fine with the other dogs there, but on the lead he barks at all other dogs. He also backs away but does wag his tail too. I'm looking for some advice please on things I can try and do when we are walking him to try and calm him down. I know it's early days and will take time but anything will be very much appreciated.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Cheznous said:


> Good morning,
> 
> We adopted a lovely little beagle this week. He is such a sweet lovingly boy with humans, but is very lead reactive. As he's a rescue dog I'm unsure of his entire history but to me it appears that he is frightened of other dogs. He came from a foster home and he was absolutely fine with the other dogs there, but on the lead he barks at all other dogs. He also backs away but does wag his tail too. I'm looking for some advice please on things I can try and do when we are walking him to try and calm him down. I know it's early days and will take time but anything will be very much appreciated.


Try and avoid being in close proximity to other dogs.

Find a distance at which he doesn't react and praise/treat him so he can learn to relax around other dogs.

Sitting out of the way on a bench, watching the other dogs at a distance is a good way to get him to settle, but try to avoid other dogs approaching him - be firm with other owners! 

Everything is very new and strange to him and he doesn't know you well yet either so he is probably feeling a bit overwhelmed.

See if you can find another calm dog to walk with as that can help and it also gives you a bit of support.

Take a look at positively.com for some training tips.


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## Dclennell88 (Mar 11, 2018)

I have a 20 month old English bulldog bitch unspayed. I don’t even know how this has happened as she used to be off lead all the time and fine but for about eight months now we have pretty much been keeping her on lead as her recall suddenly worsened and she has become reactive with other dogs. She had a small encounter where a terrier escaped from its garden while on a walk and was going for her and ever since then I have noticed the problems getting progressively worse. I have another dog she is fine with but it’s to the point now where we have to walk them separately as it is not fair on my other dog not to be able to go off lead. She seems fine but timid at first to sniff another dog then goes beserk! My partner says she doesn’t do it when he walks her but I’m not convinced as he works shifts and doesn’t walk her at peak times when there are a lot of other dogs around. I am worried she may bite eventually and don’t know wether to get a muzzle(really don’t want to), have tried with trainers but they haven’t seen her go for a dog so just say to socialise her. I was in tears yesterday as it happened again. Just feel like this is my fault and I have let her down in some way ☹


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Work on her relaxing at the sight of other dogs from a distance - reward/praise calm behaviour.

Don’t allow dogs to approach and avoid all close interactions and get her relaxing at distance first, then you can gradually decrease the distance. 

Look at kikopup and positively.com for tips on positive training methods. 

Find a tasty treat or toy she can’t resist as the reward.

Give her a couple of quiet days at home to allow the stress hormone to dissipate completely, otherwise you will just keep topping that up.

A stressed dog cannot learn.


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