# ART: Difficult, Aggro-dogs 'Need' Strong Training. [Really?]



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

pos-R B-Mod... for a dog who bites when handled, guards objects & food, attacks other dogs, bites strangers, 
& is terrified of storms. [other than that, she's fine...]. Oh, yeah - and separation-anxiety, forgot that. 

part 1: Difficult, Aggressive Dogs Need Strong Training. Really? « Boulder Dog in the shelter 
part 2: Part 2: Difficult, Aggressive Dogs Need Strong Training. Really? « Boulder Dog still in the shelter 
part 3: Positive Does NOT Mean Permissive « Boulder Dog going home

frequently, people insist dogs in general, or 'some' dogs, or 'some' breeds, NEED tough handling, or punishment, 
or correction - this arises as a repeated theme; IMO it is entirely a false premise.

her behavior & emotional responses [biting, fear, reactivity, self-defense when handled, etc] were changed 
with NO choke, prong, or shock collar, & *without* threats, intimidation or confrontation. It's not just a happy-ending, 
it is good, effective, humane rehab / B-mod & teaching / training, IMO. 
enjoy,
- terry


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

In the "Positive Does NOT Mean Permissive" part 3 section, this stood out to me.



John said:


> My biggest problem with aversive training methods is that too often, the methods are focused on stopping a behavior rather than replacing it with a desired one. Leaving it up to Pepper to decide on a new behavior was not my idea of leadership.


Exactly!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I found that when discussing Roxy (GSD) & her isssues with other dog owners how many would respond by saying that GSD's needed a 'stronger hand' & I recommended trainers/behaviourist who could deal with a 'dog like that' 

Luckily I avoided those trainers  & have found a fantastic behaviourist. Roxy needs consistent training (& lots of it!) but some of the methods I heard these trainers use (prong collars  & alpha rolling) would have made her anxiety issues far worse .... & probably cause me to smack them one!

Alot of the symtoms listed in these links are very similar to those displayed by Roxy so are really useful to me.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

That "strong hand" seems founded on fallacy to me.

The proposition generally goes, that some breeds or dogs are hard to train and need "firm leadership", based on experience with that breed in traditional training techniques.

Now, if a breed or dog is known not to respond well and be difficult with those techniques, surely that's an argument to use a different approach, not be yet more intense with the same trying to overcome "stubbornness".

One such type of dog, I have acquaintance with, is a Briard. Now she doesn't like bicycles, but one day we met and I had some small hot dog pieces in my pouch, not just dry. After asking Owner, I gave her one. The next day, we met again, and his dog approached me, despite the bicycle and me without any hot dog pieces.

This is a dog that is "difficult to train and stubborn"! We actually had a behaviour modification going on after 1 trial. Of course this is unfortunately lost on the owner, to use the food motivation the dog shows, as it doesn't fit with his mental model of how training a dog "should be". If the dog stepped out of line in some way, he has no problem yelling at it.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I found that when discussing Roxy (GSD) & her isssues with other dog owners how many would respond by saying that GSD's needed a 'stronger hand' & I recommended trainers/behaviourist who could deal with a 'dog like that'
> 
> Luckily I avoided those trainers  & have found a fantastic behaviourist. Roxy needs consistent training (& lots of it!) but some of the methods I heard these trainers use (prong collars  & alpha rolling) would have made her anxiety issues far worse .... & probably cause me to smack them one!
> 
> Alot of the symtoms listed in these links are very similar to those displayed by Roxy so are really useful to me.


Having met Roxy only once, I can tell she needs a strong hand!

How ridiculous. My understanding of german shepherds, and one reason I could never have one because of my son, is that they are very easily unnerved, which in turns causes aggression. The idea that this breed needs a strong hand has probably contributed to the number of aggressive german shepherds, if you know what I mean. You keep doing what you are doing, she will be fine one day.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Having met Roxy only once, I can tell she needs a strong hand!
> 
> How ridiculous. My understanding of german shepherds, and one reason I could never have one because of my son, is that they are very easily unnerved, which in turns causes aggression. The idea that this breed needs a strong hand has probably contributed to the number of aggressive german shepherds, if you know what I mean. You keep doing what you are doing, she will be fine one day.


Thanks, was just saying in another thread how ell she did tonight with a clicker training session. She is starting to focus a bit more & wait her turn rather than steal the limelight as she usually does.

After reading so many horror stories on here of behaviourists or trainers I have been so lucky as the lady we see has been fantastic. As well as helping Roxy she has given me confidence in my ability (which took a big hit a while ago as I felt I was failing Roxy) which can only help both of us.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

The thing is, the more time someone invested in a poor method, the more psychologically painful it is to risk having that shown.

Someone who spent years berating their dog, using positive-punishment to stamp out rough edges, would find it disastrous to see the dog learn quickly new commands by another method, showing it was actually intelligent and easily trainable. So heels get dug in with those "tough dogs".

Not rational, but human nature.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

The guarding breeds are some of the most nervy dogs around. They are bred to be wary. They, more so than other breeds IMO, need a steady and compassionate hand, definitely not a strong, firm hand!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> The thing is, the more time someone invested in a poor method, the more psychologically painful it is to risk having that shown.
> 
> Someone who spent years berating their dog, using positive-punishment to stamp out rough edges, would find it disastrous to see the dog learn quickly new commands by another method, showing it was actually intelligent and easily trainable. So heels get dug in with those "tough dogs".
> 
> Not rational, but human nature.


I had this exact conversation with someone a while back. No matter what I told him, about research and latest methods and how other animals have always been trained, he insisted that _his_ type of dog had to be shown who the pack leader was! You will never change the minds of people with their heels dug in who think they have a special sort of dog who needs different sort of training.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> You will never change the minds of people with their heels dug in
> who think they have a *special* sort of dog who needs a *different* sort of training.


reminds me of the convo i had some time back, with the forum-member who was so sure her Chihuahua 
could not possibly learn the desired behavior *the same way that other dogs did - * after all, she was a Chi! 
:lol: and Chis are, as we all know, *special*.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> her Chihuahua
> could not possibly learn the desired behavior *the same way that other dogs did - * after all, she was a Chi!
> :lol: and Chis are, as we all know, *special*.


/Chi/ -> /Briard/ and exactly the same. When I joked, that we could have his dog doing tricks in no time because of the learning potential shown, he laughed and said "oh she's too old to learn new things".

Quite honestly, when I see a dog with a problem to learn something, it's usually down to the owners. I know with our dog, that his training improvments have basically all been down to practice, but us finding and sorting the mistakes we make.

Why intelligent humans seem to find it so hard to be self-critical, be open minded and learn, I do not understand.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Resource Guarding? Biting? Dog-dog Agression? No Sweat. « Boulder Dog


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

People-aggressive Dog? Positive Training to the Rescue « Boulder Dog

this is the behavior that will get dogs dead fastest, IME - dangerous to everyone, the owner even if they are not 
a target of bites, as they are legally liable; the family, friends, relatives & neighbors; innocent passerby... 
see how it is addressed, reduced & altered _*by changing the dog's emotional response to humans - *_ 
not by punishing aggro, causing pain or threats, but simply by making her think _'ppl are Nice to have around...'_ 
for the first time in a long, long while - possibly for the first time in her life since puphood.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Thanks LFL, I'm really enjoying these series. I wish every owner was as diligent as John Visconti! Even with the best behaviourist working with this dog, I doubt much head way would be made if the John was not consistent with his R+ techniques every single day, on every walk, at every meal time, every time someone walks past the house etc. It would most certainly have been dead, IMO.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Even with the best behaviourist working with this dog, I doubt much headway would be made
> if ( ) John was not consistent with his R+ techniques every single day, on every walk, at every meal time,
> every time someone walks past the house etc. [Pepper] would most certainly have been dead, IMO.


i would not be the least-bit surprised, given the number of her triggers & the severity of her reactions.

i was personally amazed he managed to *avoid!* having the elderly man get bitten, as the fella was so intent 
on approaching & petting Pepper, ye gods - and it is sad that he did not learn good dog-manners, anyway, since he went on 
to get nailed by another leashed-dog in precisely the same fashion: sticking his hand out, and reaching to pet the dog, 
no matter what the dog's opinion about that might be, no matter what the owner or handler might say. :nonod:

people can scare or anger a dog, even with the very best intentions - feeding a dog Baker's chocolate can kill the dog, 
even tho the dog dearly loves it & begs for each piece as it is offered. They did not *mean* to kill the dog, 
but sadly the dog is just as dead --- and that U _'only want to pet the dog, my, what a pretty dog!...' :ihih: _
will not impress a scared dog who wants to bolt, but has nowhere to go & no way to escape.

the old fella was darned lucky, IMO - too bad he did not take his lessons to heart.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds similar to my experience a few weeks ago - an elderly man who 'knew GSDs' intnet on comin over to see Roxy. I told him several times not to but he knew best 

In retrospect I should have turned & walked in the other direction but I didn't,; Roxy was sitting but as he approached she lunged at him & starting barking. He backed off then & muttered something about her being out of control - I was so annoyed with him as it just made her stressed, we had had such a good day with her seeing new people up until then.

I was also annoyed with myself for allowing this to happen.

We've roped in a neighbour who has agreed to meet us on walks so will get him to throw some treats on the floor when we meet him although am not sure Roxy will notice them as she's not that food orientated when out. 

Although she is fine with people coming to the house she is very wary of people outside but then she does get quite anxious about alot of things whne away from home so maybe this is something we will have to work on for a while.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i was personally amazed he managed to *avoid!* having the elderly man get bitten, as the fella was so intent
> on approaching & petting Pepper, ye gods - and it is sad that he did not learn good dog-manners, anyway, since he went on
> to get nailed by another leashed-dog in precisely the same fashion: sticking his hand out, and reaching to pet the dog,
> no matter what the dog's opinion about that might be, no matter what the owner or handler might say. :nonod:
> ...


Absolutely, that old man was very lucky! And just shows that those people who 'love dogs' and enjoys meeting them are sometimes a dog's worst enemy!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Although she is fine with people coming to the house she is very wary of people [away from home]...
> she does get quite anxious about [a lot] of things [when] away from home so maybe this is something we will have to work on for a while.


try adding calmatives to her routine -- Rescue-Remedy liquid AM & PM on an empty-tum, add a 3rd-dose before a walk; 
DAP pump-spray on her collar 10 to 15-mins before departing for the walk, then spray the leash a hands-length 
from the clip just before clipping it on; a habituated 'relax-cue' using pump-spray botanical lavender-water; 
a figure-8 Ace-wrap body-wrap...

see post #22 in the sticky 'Dog Body-Language' for full explanations & links.


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## billie jo (Feb 17, 2011)

Prong collars are more widely used in the guarding industry than I would ever like to see. My own boy, Sammy was trained with them when he was with the Begium Police. By the time they had finished with him - he had become a machine! Everyone was terrified of him - then he and I found each other. If anyone came near either of my dogs with a prong collar - they would be wearing them where the sun doesn't shine! Happy to report that whilst, 'the Samster' is a damn good security dog - he is also the soppiest animal with me and my partner and enjoys chilling out at home - he knows what its like to be a dog these days and not a machine!

Ps He's at this moment in work with me, hogging the electric fire whilst I'm sitting here shivering! That dog! Maybe he does need a firm hand ........ lol


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i was personally amazed he managed to *avoid!* having the elderly man get bitten, as the fella was so intent
> on approaching & petting Pepper, ye gods - and it is sad that he did not learn good dog-manners


No surprises about people not listening or complying with requests, it's far easier to change dog behaviour than people behaviours!

I just found there's no substitute to being willing to come over with the Sgt-Major tendency and act decisively, and risking some personal unpopularity and criticism.

It's no good having people notice 6 months later, that the "harmless" activity that was permitted, has left the dog with a problem.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> try adding calmatives to her routine -- Rescue-Remedy liquid AM & PM on an empty-tum, add a 3rd-dose before a walk;
> DAP pump-spray on her collar 10 to 15-mins before departing for the walk, then spray the leash a hands-length
> from the clip just before clipping it on; a habituated 'relax-cue' using pump-spray botanical lavender-water;
> a figure-8 Ace-wrap body-wrap...
> ...


We use the DAP spray before we take her out to busy places but will try Rescue remedy as well.

I am constantly referring to the 'Dog Body Language' thread - it's proved invaluable lately!



RobD-BCactive said:


> No surprises about people not listening or complying with requests, it's far easier to change dog behaviour than people behaviours!
> 
> *I just found there's no substitute to being willing to come over with the Sgt-Major tendency and act decisively, and risking some personal unpopularity and criticism*.
> 
> It's no good having people notice 6 months later, that the "harmless" activity that was permitted, has left the dog with a problem.


I think this is/was my problem to a certain extent, I didn't want want to appear rude to people but have now learnt that Roxy's behaviour is more important to me than a strangers opinion.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Sounds similar to my experience a few weeks ago - an elderly man who 'knew GSDs' intnet on comin over to see Roxy. I told him several times not to but he knew best
> 
> In retrospect I should have turned & walked in the other direction but I didn't,; Roxy was sitting but as he approached she lunged at him & starting barking. He backed off then & muttered something about her being out of control - I was so annoyed with him as it just made her stressed, we had had such a good day with her seeing new people up until then.
> 
> ...


Unless she actually managed to get at the silly old fool, she is not out of control is she? There is always one; you can't afford to be so polite! If you see someone like him again, just tell them firmly that you know your dog best, thanks very much, and bye bye.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I've arrived late on this thread but thank you for posting this Terri!

Pepper's story and the recovery she made with John is wonderful. 

She is unfortunately a perfect example of how you can destroy a sensitive, highly driven (collie type!!!) dog with aversives and "strong" training. 

I compete in agility and have done sheepdog work and to this day, I am always so dissappointed when I read the working sheepdog handbooks distributed on sheep work assessment days etc (there's also a smaller but still considerable percentage of people in agility who follow ideas below)...

You get the usual diatribe of:
"The Border collie... being a strong, independent dog... needs strong leadership from the handler..." blah blah blah!

It's demoralizing...

This kind of ideology gets flung around all the time. I worked for a time in a kennels, and I remember how the daughter of the owner of said kennels (being useless as she was- I wouldn't have trusted her to keep a fly alive) would holler at any offending dog that she deemed to be acting "strong"; namely the shepherds, collies, rotties, mastiff types, one boxer cross with dog issues.
Apparently she'd been bitten several times. I'm not surprised. :blink: 

Granted the kennelled environment brought out the worst in these dogs (reactivity, stress...) But why isn't there more education out there? Why won't such aversive, oppressive ideology and methods die out?
(My guess is that the media and certain TV personalities are not helping for starters ^)

Of my collies:
-had my boy dog been trained consistently with aversives and rank reduction style training, he would have been in ruins 
- had my girl, I imagine, she too would have gone into herself, perhaps not to such an extent as my boy but still.  

I quite like having dogs that trust me, so TBH I think I'll carry on with my "airy-fairy" training and I'll leave my "strong" dogs to carry on "dominating me".:ciappa:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I've been getting this from people recently because I'm getting a schnauzer. They seem to be one of these dead 'ard breeds that don't respond to positive reinforcement. There's no breed that you need to alpha roll or use choke chains etc on.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> We've roped in a neighbour who has agreed to meet us on walks so will get him to throw some treats on the floor when we meet him although am not sure Roxy will notice them as she's not that food orientated when out


She likes toys if I remember? Why can't he show up with one of her favourites in a bag behind his back, that are suitable playing with her in open space and get that out and drop/throw it down to begin the game instead?

A Cairn Terrier I met in January still goes loopy with delight, when he sees me or Freddie, after he was involved in a few fetch games as part of the walk.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lemmsy said:


> But why isn't there more education out there? Why won't such aversive, oppressive ideology and methods die out?


New schools of thought, become the prevailing (Dominant) view after the adherents of the old, retire & die out.

The problem with dogs is as they're so common, a new owner has previous experience, relations with previous experience, and meets people who "know dogs" and have fixed views.

Positive-reinforcement, sounds like a long drawn out process, so there's always going to be an attraction of short cuts, and punishment seems effective in short term. It's like the gamblers fallacy, which causes people to lose so much money, they know really .. but this time just simply backing X, sure win!

Probably mammals have evolved with constrained resources, so dogs tend to punish each other, rather than pass round the chicken slices, and similarly most people struggle to give things without some status or other perceived benefit in return, they want to be mean and economise, not to be one of those people spoiling and pampering their dog. "But he only sits for the food", or the woman with an overweight rescue with a recall problem says "Oh can't train him with rewards at moment, he's not allowed treats". Despite the obvious possibility of using part of the dogs ration for training purposes or using play, in her mind set, the dog ought to do what she wants, just for praise or because she insists, just a bit longer.

Frustrating, but a problem that could be easily sorted, is likely to just be neglected. I even have a feeling Adam Sandler style training could be preferred if presented the right way, rather than using the food motivation. That's despite example of well trained rewards based dogs around, they're "good" so they deserve it, but "bad" dog doesn't.

Personally, I think R+ materials have to deal head on with the weaning off titbits, phasing out the lure early and such like, as people only remember part of what they see, so mistake it for "bribery" and we all see plenty of dogs who only do tricks when there are treats around.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> New schools of thought, become the prevailing (Dominant) view after the adherents of the old, retire & die out.
> 
> The problem with dogs is as they're so common, a new owner has previous experience, relations with previous experience, and meets people who "know dogs" and have fixed views.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, the old school ideas get passed from generation to generation. It worked for my dad, my dad says.................

I used to have the same problems teaching young people to drive in a manual car - they would then go out practicing with their dad, or even worse, grandad, and come back trying to change down through every gear (because dad or grandad says it will ruin their gearbox otherwise) and stopping at all the roundabouts (because they didn't have those in grandad's time, so he thinks it is always safer to stop). I even had one girl whose parents refused to allow her to go into first gear whilst moving, because "it can't be done", despite the fact that she did it on lessons!

So we would have to come to a complete stop before we went into first, despite the fact that the lights were changing before that could happen and everyone else was taking off ahead.

It is the same with dog training, really. My brother still thinks the way to housetrain is to rub the dog's nose in it. When I try to explain why he shouldn't do that, he tells me that "the Ol' man" always did it like that! Thank god he is not getting another puppy:


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> It is the same with dog training, really. My brother still thinks the way to housetrain is to rub the dog's nose in it. When I try to explain why he shouldn't do that, he tells me that "the Ol' man" always did it like that!


I left out egos. People are not cooperative and hard to change, because they feel it is "your idea" not theirs. It's irrational, as ideas are free, but perhaps they do not want to feel obligated or admit some family person was right about something.

Quite often the forum suggests just not listening to advice you get out "in the wild", but actually hearing what people are saying and thinking on it, may be just to understand how they're misunderstanding can give you more insight.

Look at the way that thread we're all sick of (self correcting collar) goes, noone thinks either side of the debate is going to give an inch. LMD sees a quality durable product that's safe in his experience, so it meets his need and is liked and regarded as safe by all kinds of people; but our requirements and evaluation differs so he probably views us as extreme, with invalid alarmist points.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> I left out egos. People are not cooperative and hard to change, because they feel it is "your idea" not theirs. It's irrational, as ideas are free, but perhaps they do not want to feel obligated or admit some family person was right about something.
> 
> Quite often the forum suggests just not listening to advice you get out "in the wild", but actually hearing what people are saying and thinking on it, may be just to understand how they're misunderstanding can give you more insight.
> 
> Look at the way that thread we're all sick of (self correcting collar) goes, noone thinks either side of the debate is going to give an inch. LMD sees a quality durable product that's safe in his experience, so it meets his need and is liked and regarded as safe by all kinds of people; but our requirements and evaluation differs so he probably views us as extreme, with invalid alarmist points.


I think of his views as extreme, especially since he has now resorted to declaring that you did not see what you know you saw! Problem is, people like that do not see why anyone would want to spend weeks and months teaching something to a dog, when there are quick fix methods about.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Not really if you can bear to look at this web page it explains where LMD is coming from - LuvMyDog Worldwide Neck Tech Black Stainless Steel ClicLock Buckle Prong Collar 60cm/24": Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

I wonder if LMD would like a customer review?


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

I love my dogs so I WON'T be sticking that nasty old collar on them!

People can be such......(insert appropriate word here)

Love all the articles that have been posted - goes to show what good R+ really can do!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Not really if you can bear to look at this web page it explains where LMD is coming from - LuvMyDog Worldwide Neck Tech Black Stainless Steel ClicLock Buckle Prong Collar 60cm/24": Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies
> 
> I wonder if LMD would like a customer review?


Just seen that awful thing ....is the company name supposed to be ironic??!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Not really if you can bear to look at this web page it explains where LMD is coming from - LuvMyDog Worldwide Neck Tech Black Stainless Steel ClicLock Buckle Prong Collar 60cm/24": Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies
> 
> I wonder if LMD would like a customer review?


I know where he's coming from, Rob, and I know where he belongs


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Scrunchies and Lavender Candles for Thunder Phobia? Yep. « Boulder Dog
Part 6: the final segment of Pepper's story, when John Visconti gets creative to tackle a highly-resistant phobia.
enjoy,
- terry


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

*sigh* http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/159416-half-check-collars-loose-lead-training.html#post2381343 - "a stubborn, strong willed dog and he needs a firm hand"
OK not aggressive, but we've all heard this sort of thing out and about? This thread seemed like a better spot to discuss such dogs.

I take "stubborn" to mean, the dog doesnt' want to do what the handler would like. Would it be likely that such dogs, either don't understand, are distracted by something more rewarding, or were trained with rewards that were inappropriate, or do canines go on strike?

Should one say, show a sniffing dog "Who's Boss!" by loud reprimand, when you're frustrated and in a hurry?


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

again, people want the quick fix. Which I can understand because I can be a temperamental woman at times. BUT I would still prefer my dogs *choose* to work for me than to 'check' or 'coerce' them into doing something.

Nothing more satisfying than seeing a dog eager to train and performing brilliantly. And distractions are a big challenge for a trainer, so developing ways to keep your dogs focus and work through problems in a positive way just hones your skills and builds a much better relationship with your dog.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Well I have to say, I do at times force the dog, but when safety, animal welfare or consideration of others, is involved not my convenience. However I use the absolute minimum of force in the circumstances. Freddie has a mild car phobia, and avoids it, so for instance rather than drag him, he is gently carried from inside and placed in it, rather than "taint" the lead by association. I had to physically remove him away from a Choc Lab today, where the "Off!" command failed for first time and I could not distract him away onto a toy either.

I agree, when the dog doesn't respond, the way to learn, is to figure out why, observing & inquiring into all the factors, then thinking about it, and putting in place a strategy.

So on nice heel walking, I make sure he knows when he's "working", and when we're recreating. Dog exercise is his time for him, so if he has to sniff & mark, rather than walk along then most of time that's fine. We're not in any heelwork competition out in the local streets 

PS. Pawsitive, I wonder if you have a fully automatic treat dispenser in that ball video, as I never saw a dog catch so much so quick, it looked like watching the trainers, demo-ing Sea Lions


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

In the spirit of reviving and promoting non-troll threads  An update.

General progress 

I checked the communication going on, and it was fine.

As any toy rotated out seems to become a "super toy" very highly valued, I've allowed more access (not less) whilst out to common toys. Thinking about it, after the litter mate's visit, and wishing to encourage play with other dogs I may have inadvertently increased the possessiveness.

So I've followed that logic, and allow carrying of a toy around more. He's seemed to be learning many of the other dogs jsut aren't very interested in his toy. Recently, he's begun dropping the toy and going to see what the other dog's up to. It's even happened with a tennis ball.

Obviously I'm taking care about the dogs who get near in the situation, and am ready to intervene should a warning growl be given and ignored.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Nice uplifting kikopup vid : YouTube - Training high drive dogs- clicker dog training



kikopup said:


> There is a myth going around that is not founded in science, but is mere opinion, that high drive dogs need to be physically and psychologically intimidated in order to be trained. By using Progressive Reinforcement Training which involves no forms of physical or psychological intimidation, you can train high drive dogs the right level of arousal as well as reliable behaviors, and how to be friendly and calm around other dogs and people


I note the Belgian Malinois is one of those security breeds featured in the Working & Bite sport thread.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I had this exact conversation with someone a while back. No matter what I told him, about research and latest methods and how other animals have always been trained, he insisted that _his_ type of dog had to be shown who the pack leader was! You will never change the minds of people with their heels dug in who think they have a special sort of dog who needs different sort of training.


The explanation is now know to be "motivated reasoning" there's Terry's post linking to article In the persuasion game, beware the backfire effect explaining that observation (original thread was sabotaged & moved).

Collette's post http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/166034-somebody-ies-vic-stilwells-crew-got-wrong-form-letter-wont-make-right-3.html#post2512812 nicely explains the myth about tough hard animals requiring tough treatment; who wants to be viewed as a thread (or food) by large carnivores such as big cats? And this clear post on extinguishing unwanted behaviours by requiring alternatives http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/166942-mmmmmmmmmmmmmm-19.html#post2512720

I basically proved to my friend with the Briard, that's he's trained my dog to jump on him (reinforcing it with inccorrect indulgence treating & ineffective punishment, his escalation frustrated & inhibited as it's not his dog so must be nice) and he indeed tried the suggested alternative which worked. But next time, he's fallen back on his own ways, and obviously decided to just withold his treat, rather than continue working the dog; so he's avoiding learning & seeing extinction of the behaviour occur rapidly.

Meanwhile his "untrainable" dog, has changed from avoiding me on bike to eagerly rushing up (sneeky Liver Cake. reinforced praise & mannered greetings). Furthermore seems like my BC may hve effectively P+'d the Briard owner's indulgence treating habit (to himself at least) by jumping on him :lol:

But you just cannot change a rigid mind, if the guy persists being frustrated I may have to avoid him (preferable to closely controlling in free run exercise area just for him), as I suspect he'll start being inconsistent and fall for a cute look 

CarolineH's post here was another lucid insightful one http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/164823-sarah-kalnajs-some-thoughts-pos-r-training-2.html#post2463793 explaining why methods which work for us, are so frequently attacked and misrepresented by those unwilling to experiment.

Finally to add the large number of R+ dogs in group situation, have a look at the Guniess Record Holder for largest number of dogs walked by one person, features off leash dogs in public park Video Cuts - A Different Breed Episode 3 Video: The Dog Whisperer


Sky Video Cuts said:


> Prepare yourselves.
> 
> You're about to come face-to-face with the doggy version of Uri Geller.
> 
> Dima Yeremenko holds an almost uncanny sway over his pooches - he's even broken world records using his many, many (bizarre) talents





Dima Yeremenko said:


> Dog training should not be about the dominance and bullying that we see nowadays. I'll tell you what works (upbeat) "Bribery and Corruption!"


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