# Giving Advice



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

*Right before I start I want to make this clear, this is NOT aimed at anyone member in particular and I DO NOT want this to turn into a slanging match.*

Its become apparent to me that a few of us for one reason or another have differing opinions about giving advice on treatments or procedures over the internet.

Things seem to fall into two camps.

*Camp 1:*
Err on the side of caution (could be described as over zealous)
often advice vets input early on
Give advice based on experience and veterinary advice
Do not give information about POMV drug dosages
Tailors their advice based on the OP's experience (newbie or with 30+ litters behind them), and takes into account that this is a public forum that newbies will read.

*Camp 2:*
Give advice based only their own experiences (could be described as carefree)
dont necessarily advise a vets input or not until later on (follow a different timetable)
Give advice as if everyone is an experienced breeder
Give advice on drug dosages

Now I think you know which camp I fall into, but i am trying to be impartial here. There has been so much tension on the forum lately, i wondered if you people would mind telling me which sort you would prefer?

I realise that the two camps, not everyone does everything in each and most people fall somewhere between the two.

I thought i would give you an example of both types of advice for the following situation.

Retained placenta in a moggie queen who is 12mo on her first litter with 4 healthy kittens - time 11am friday morning.

Camp 1: A retained placenta is fairly common. Keep a very close eye on her until after lunchtime, if there is still no sign of it then give your vet a ring as they may need to invervene. It potentially very dangerous for the placenta to be left for too long as it will cause a nasty infection.

Camp 2: I would see how she goes over the weekend, I've had queens retain them for 2 or 3 days without any problems at all, I'm sure it will come out by monday.

There are problems with both answers,

camp1 - could be classed as being a bit of a zealot and if misinterpreted could be seen as saything this was a dire emergency and that their cat is guarenteed to get very poorly.

camp2 - could be seen as being slack with their advice, even dangerous and so putting the cat and her kittens at risk.

Please note again this is not aimed at anyone in particular I just want to get the feelers out there as to what people prefer (especially the newbies on the forum). I am 100% sure it wont effect the way i give advice or the way others do, and we will always have differing opinions on right or wrong. However as the threads can get heated i thought this would be a good neutral ground (no mans land) for the quieter forum members to have their say.


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

I've not been here long, and I take a pick-n-mix look at the post from the dog and cat forums.

I'm a qualified and registered Veterinary Nurse. If I gave out advice that turned out to be detrimental to an animal in my job I could be held accountable for that (it used to come down to the vet surgeon, but now registered VNs are accountable for their actions), so I would always err on the side of caution when giving advice, especially if someone calls the hospital and I haven't actually seen the animal. I write down any advice I give on the animal's clinical notes so I have written evidence should something untoward happen (I work nights sometimes and often have people call for advise).

On a forum we never have the full story, even less so than were you talking to someone over the phone. So, I would always err on the side of caution when giving advice. People often don't take advice to the letter and will pick out the bits they like and ignore the bits they don't, often to the detriment of the animal.

A forum should not replace a veterinary opinion, examination, or diagnosis. Indeed, only a VS can diagnose a problem.

Likewise I wouldn't give out drug dosage information, as its likely you don't have the full story. And things that aren't POM-Vs, but that animals can have (i.e certain painkillers), I would NEVER give out information on, over the phone or on a forum, as 1. too much information can be a bad thing, and 2. if people think one drug is safe they may think another is, or if it's safe in one species they may presume it's safe in another species.

You just don't know who is reading, and what way they may take things


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I am firmly in camp 1.

I may move into camp 2 at times, but never on an open forum, possibly in private (phone, email, PM) and only with people who have the experience to know the different nuances of whatever is being discussed.

None of us on here are vets, none of us are there looking at the cat with the retained placenta (or whatever). In the vast majority of cases the posters asking the questions are not just forum newbies, but complete novices to the feline birthing process. Even simple questions asked directly to someone like this are often answered incorrectly. We have to figure that margin of error into any reply or advice we give. We also have to accept the fact that these forums are trawled by non-registered members just looking to avoid paying for a vet.

Advising someone to phone a vet can never ever be wrong. Let the vet decide if it stays at a phone call or a consultation is necessary. I dont see this as scaremongering or overzealous, I just see it as plain common sense.

Advising someone to just chill out and let nature take its course can be wrong and fatal. This type of advice is slipshod and sloppy, and potentially VERY dangerous to the cats of those trawling forums like this just to save them the costs of a visit to the vet.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

No, not aimed at anyone, of course not.

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> No, not aimed at anyone, of course not.
> 
> Liz


Liz its not. You are not the only person on this forum i have disagreed with you know! I'm quite capable of pi$$ing off a multitude of people .


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

I would agree with erring on the side of caution. I tend to stay out of posting on the breeding forum as I know nothing about it, but I always read the threads. Of course it is always important to realise that some people have little experience in breeding so being cautious is a necessity. And of course always being advised to seek veterinary advice (even over the phone) in the first instance is important.

The only thing I would like to say is that sometimes, when somebody has done something you don't agree with (a typical example being a moggie getting pregnant by accident) it can come across as being a little too "attacking" and could make people stop posting completely when they need advice with a situation, which in turn would lead to the cat not getting the right help or attention when it needs it. I'm not expecting people not to have an opinion on these things and keep schtum but sometimes when there are three or four posters all telling somebody how irresponsible they are (or something along those lines!) it can put people off posting.

Please nobody take anything personally from this post, just putting my two cents in.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Chez87 said:


> I would agree with erring on the side of caution. I tend to stay out of posting on the breeding forum as I know nothing about it, but I always read the threads. Of course it is always important to realise that some people have little experience in breeding so being cautious is a necessity. And of course always being advised to seek veterinary advice (even over the phone) in the first instance is important.
> 
> The only thing I would like to say is that sometimes, when somebody has done something you don't agree with (a typical example being a moggie getting pregnant by accident) it can come across as being a little too "attacking" and could make people stop posting completely when they need advice with a situation, which in turn would lead to the cat not getting the right help or attention when it needs it. I'm not expecting people not to have an opinion on these things and keep schtum but sometimes when there are three or four posters all telling somebody how irresponsible they are (or something along those lines!) it can put people off posting.
> 
> Please nobody take anything personally from this post, just putting my two cents in.


Absoloutly, and i am one of those passionate people involved in rescue who could be seen as attacking, its a fair criticism! :thumbup:


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Oh BBM, I totally agree that when you have seen the rescue side of things (most of us haven't) it will probably make you even more infuriated when these situations arise, knowing that more kittens from BYBs mean rescues are becoming more overcrowded, and cats arent being rehomed as there is always an abundance of kittens available from these BYBs. BUT I only said what I said because I don't want people to be put off posting, or even have people leaving the forum, and in turn, their cats not getting the right help.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I think it's pretty obvious which option I would choose .

Chez I totally agree with you, the only thing is that unless we are seen to 'disapprove' (probably the wrong word, but is the only one that comes to me right now) what's to say the same wont happen again and again with the same cat. If we just gave advice, they would see nothing wrong with what they are doing.

Though this is really only a valid point to new members who joined specifically for help in this situation, sometimes the mind boggles when experienced PF members who access to all this information still end up in the situation. But I accept that it does happen.

The other trouble is the written word. It almost always comes across differently to the reader. Especially if the reader is the person in that situation. What can be genuine concern and advice can be read as an attack quite easily. I'm not sure what can be done, if anything about that?


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## tiara (Jan 10, 2010)

Camp 1 DEFINATELY!!! :thumbup:

I would rather have advice that errs on the cautious side, afterall we're dealing with lives here and with the example given, I would want to know what could "potentially" go wrong in that situation. 

When ever I think somethings not right with my cats I always take them straight to the vets to be on the safe side. I'm not saying I think everyone should do this, but personally this is what I have always done and will continue to do.

I'm not a breeder yet but our first breeding girl will be old enough to come and join our home end of this month and we are mega excited, she's a beauty. 

Out of all the forums I have been on, this is the one I always come back to due to the helpful advice given and the people on it. 
When one of my boys was ill last year I was given valuable advice from cat owners who had been in the same situation and their advice and helpfullness was a god send at what was a particularly stressful time for me due to what my boy was going through.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2010)

Camp 1: Better safe than sorry.:thumbup:


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

just wanna say thanks to everyone who has replied, especially the newbies and the people who dont often get involved in the heated threads.... keep the replies coming guys.

I promise this wont turn into a slanging match, cos if it does i want the nearest most to close it asap!


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Most definately camp 1 .I would always err on the side of caution,especially on something that could be life threatening.


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

Doolally said:


> I've not been here long, and I take a pick-n-mix look at the post from the dog and cat forums.
> 
> I'm a qualified and registered Veterinary Nurse. If I gave out advice that turned out to be detrimental to an animal in my job I could be held accountable for that (it used to come down to the vet surgeon, but now registered VNs are accountable for their actions), so I would always err on the side of caution when giving advice, especially if someone calls the hospital and I haven't actually seen the animal. I write down any advice I give on the animal's clinical notes so I have written evidence should something untoward happen (I work nights sometimes and often have people call for advise).
> 
> ...


totally agree -as an ex vet receptionist and ANA i would have been shot for even attempting to diagnose let alone treat


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Camp 1 but just depends on who's asked for the advice and what experience they have etc etc.

I think there's a happy medium.

I also just want to comment (whilst on the topic) on the post i started a few days ago about hand feeding.

I apologise if i'm offending anyone but in this case i'd like to give a little defense to Liz, who i think was shot down rather unfairly. She simply mentioned that she was aware that it could be possible for kittens to survive unfed for 24 hours, she didn't say that was ok for me to do, and common sense, and the experience i have already (2 feline litters of my own, countless guinea pig litters, 2 vet friends, and a few years of work in an animal shelter) made it clear to me that this wouldn't be what i would do.

I really think that what Liz said was innocent and wasn't meant to be taken so literally, it was meant to calm my worries about it all.

I very much believe in "if in doubt call the vet", but i also think that it is possible to be over cautious.

Maybe i'm just saying this because i'm not a complete newbie but just thought i'd get my 2p worth


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

can i be in camp rock?? 

i dont know for the example given now ive had a couple of litters i know not to panic if a placenta hasnt come out so id give it the night then the next morning call the vet for a shot of oxy


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## angelblue (Aug 4, 2009)

camp 1 for me too x


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> Camp 1 but just depends on who's asked for the advice and what experience they have etc etc.
> 
> I think there's a happy medium.
> 
> ...


I can understand where you are coming from ... But that kind of advice shouldn't be given on a public forum IMO. Whether the poster (in this case Liz) knows you are experienced or not.

It's very dangerous to have such advice out there that can be googled by a novice who's moggie has rejected her new born kittens for example. The searcher might not know this is the case, and as soon as they see it's OK to leave them for 24 hours without milk that's all the info they need to make an awful decision.

They might even wait longer than 24hrs, thinking 'ah a couple of extra hours wont matter ... that's if the kittens aren't already dead, which I suspect they would be 

Perhaps in these instances a PM to you would have been better. But again I would only do that if I were absolutely sure you were experienced enough to make an informed decision.

I don't think when it comes to a living thing ... being over cautious can be a bad thing. When it comes to medical issues anyway.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Camp 1 Everytime!!:thumbup: 

i care for a stray cat and have dogs and hamsters and if i think something isnt right with any of them they i take them to the vet, i never leave anything to chance if it turned out to be something serious i would never forgive myself for delaying.

like wise on forums i Always err on the side of caution, i advise posters to contact their vet in cases where the life of the animal could be at risk or the animal sounds as tho it is suffering in some way....it could be very dangerous for the animal not to.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2010)

Reckon I could fall into both camps BUT I ALWAYS say to seek veternary advice even if only initially by telephone! Even for was sounds like more obvious issues!

To be remembered is that in todays world it is easy to look and find anything via google! And I certainly think this is far far more dangerous then asking on a forum! ! I know with myself (thats ME not my dogs) when I have had something niggling me I have googled it! Normally to find it to be some uncurable disease that can only be decribed at the dreaded lurgy:scared:

What does amaze me is the amount of people that do come onto the forums having had a sick pet, sometimes for a period of time and have failed to seek professional advice! I'll hold my hands up and admit, in these cases I will often chuck in a suggestion that CoULD be the worse case senerio the aim to scare em into seeking treatment!

Now what happened to that slagging match!:thumbup: Oh! I've only just chucked the spanner in the works!

Only Joking BBM! good thread!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I try to steer clear of threads where advice is needed. Partly because there are a number of people here who I think give great advice (and so my own advice would be surplus) but partly because I tend to sit firmly between both camps, perhaps just erring to 'camp 2' lol... but I realise giving 'wait and see' advice on a forum can be dangerous so I'd rather say nothing.

I do find the attitudes of some breeders to be a little too hands on and bit too quick with intervention if we're talking about queens kittening, hand feeding, etc. In my opinion this can be just as potentially damaging as sitting back and keeping a close eye for a while.

To give just one example as it's been talked about on the forum recently - the hand feeding of newborns/use of synthetic 'colostrum' for the first 24 hours when there's a perceived blood group mismatch - and I'm talking only of A group queens feeding possible b group kittens. In 27 years I have NEVER removed/hand fed for 24 hours kittens in this scenario and have NEVER lost a kitten with bgi as a result. Hand feeding, in my opinion, is a skill not easily learned and can go horribly wrong... on top of this anything marketed as 'colostrum' simply... isn't. It's just a concoction of glucose, minerals, vitamins and no product can replace the queen's colostrum which contains antibodies to feline diseases that are so vital to newborn kittens for the first several weeks of their lives. In my opinion it is completely wrong to deprive newborns of a queen's colostrum in this way.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> She simply mentioned that she was aware that it could be possible for kittens to survive unfed for 24 hours, she didn't say that was ok for me to do, and common sense, and the experience i have already [......] made it clear to me that this wouldn't be what i would do.


Like someone said on that thread, it's possible that toddlers can fall off a high floor balcony and survive the fall relatively unscathed, doesn't mean though that it's recomended to let them play there.

When there's only a smallish probability of advice like this not being dangerous, or a high probablity of advice being dangerous, a public forum isn't the place to write it.



alisondalziel said:


> I really think that what Liz said was innocent and wasn't meant to be taken so literally, it was meant to calm my worries about it all.


We have to accept that this forum is read by complete novices to cat birthing. Not just inexperienced registered members, unregistered members with a potential problem trawl to find advice. Say such a person has a litter of kittens born at 5am on a Sunday morning and for whatever reason the mum's not feedling them. That person knows they can go to a vet, but its weekend and they have to pay the high out of hours charge and they want to avoid that if they can. They come on here and read some claim that "probably newborn kittens would be fine left unfed for 24 hours", made by a breeder with many years experience. So they decide since it's only 28 hours till the vets open on Monday morning just to leave their kittens unfed. They do not know how to read the signals that this spurious advice isn't working and their kittens are dying. By the time they work that out, they have dead kittens.



alisondalziel said:


> I very much believe in "if in doubt call the vet", but i also think that it is possible to be over cautious.


Of course it's possible to be over-cautious. I know I am. But over cautious is never lethal. Blasé advice is lethal, it's a number game - a gamble, some you win - some you lose. The worst that over-cautious advice can lead to is an un-needed phone call to a vet. The worst that blasé advice can lead to is dead cats and kittens.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Hand feeding, in my opinion, is a skill not easily learned and can go horribly wrong... on top of this anything marketed as 'colostrum' simply... isn't. It's just a concoction of glucose, minerals, vitamins and no product can replace the queen's colostrum which contains antibodies to feline diseases that are so vital to newborn kittens for the first several weeks of their lives.


I have zero knowledge of the blood group incompatability issues... but I do very strongly agree with you that bottle feeding can go horribly wrong and that store bought colustrum is a bit of a misnomer. :thumbsup:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

i really believe that all forums should have strict rules preventing people giving out advise which could potentially put an animals life at risk.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

ok wading in with my big boots here.

Can we please keep actual forum members and actual forum happenings off this thread?
pretty please? with sugar and a cherry on top?

I dont want anyone to be able to say that this thread is a dig at anyone, or at any particular advice given. It doesnt need pulling apart here, that should be done on the thread it was given in the first place.

What I am looking for is to gauge the forum members feelings about the types of advice given.



_____________________________________________________________



For the record i am firmly in camp 1, however those that know me, will know that if i think i can help via pm with some more detailed (or dangerous in the wrong hands) advice i will do so. This once included a telephone conference call with the op, my vet and me around the world discussing antibiotics for someone without a vet in the middle of nowhere. Would i put that sort of advice on a public forum for anyone to read? not on your nelly, its simply too dangerous in the wrong hands in my opinion.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

BBM, I find myself wanting to say that all/any advice and opinions (bar the ridiculous, of course) are valid; have a place here and each has the right to express an opinion without being shot down in flames as happened on another thread recently. That disturbes me almost as much as anything else.

I think all I can say is that on a forum, whatever one would personally do in a situation, if you're going to contribute to a thread with some advice it HAS to err on the side of caution, i.e. not necessarily be what I would do in a situation.

It's so complex. I've known many an owner worry unnecessarily and panic a vet into completely unnecessary intervention, resulting in the loss of kittens and unnecessary major surgical intervention for the queen. Equally, I have seen disasters as a result of a too laid back approach.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> I try to steer clear of threads where advice is needed. Partly because there are a number of people here who I think give great advice (and so my own advice would be surplus) but partly because I tend to sit firmly between both camps, perhaps just erring to 'camp 2' lol... but I realise giving 'wait and see' advice on a forum can be dangerous so I'd rather say nothing. ]
> 
> I agree with this. Although I haven't been breeding for very long I reared moggy kittens for many years when it was acceptable to do so. I would never offer my advice on any potentially life threatening situation, where such advice would be dangerous. What I would do myself in any given situation is another matter and I am probably more of a camp 2 type of person


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

I think perhaps there should be a disclaimer or a sticky regarding advise.

Advise is of course the views of the poster and not necessary the right advise. Therefore people seeking advise should take this on board and if seeking advise of a serious nature then they should seek advise of a professional, someone qualified to give that advise.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> I think perhaps there should be a disclaimer or a sticky regarding advise.
> 
> Advise is of course the views of the poster and not necessary the right advise. Therefore people seeking advise should take this on board and if seeking advise of a serious nature then they should seek advise of a professional, someone qualified to give that advise.


I totally agree! :thumbsup:

But so many people just don't want to pay vet fees and that's the sole reason they come on here... free advice ... doesn't really matter if it's good advice or not, (or if it's of a serious nature) it's free!

I have personal experience with someone on this forum who was like that - all she wanted was advice to save her going to a vet and paying. The problem was, I KNEW the kitten was in a very bad way and wouldn't last long without a vet. So we spoke briefly in email, but I knew I wasn't getting through to her how poorly the kitten was. So I phoned her. I was very blunt . She was forced to realize how poorly the kitten was and it would die if she didn't get it to a vet NOW, but that still didn't alter the fact she was not paying weekend rates for a vet, she simply said she couldn't. The only reason that kitten FINALLY got to a vet was, it finally dawned on the owner that she had been given 4 weeks free insurance when she bough the kitten. It died anyway. I am sure if this kitten had seen a vet 6 hours earlier (instead of 6 hour spent trawling the PF for advice and trying odd and sods of that advice out) it would have lived. Some of the things she experimented with contributed to the kitten dying.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

Tje said:


> It died anyway. I am sure if this kitten had seen a vet 6 hours earlier (instead of 6 hour spent trawling the PF for advice and trying odd and sods of that advice out) it would have lived. Some of the things she experimented with contributed to the kitten dying.


That's really sad :frown:
To think the kitten was insured after all of that anyway!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

thelioncub said:


> That's really sad :frown:
> To think the kitten was insured after all of that anyway!


yep, totally tragic!! Even when she remembered the free insurance, she still didnt hurry to a vet, she was more worried that there would be a clause that meant the insurance wouldnt pay out so it was more wasted time spent checking the small print of the T&Cs

and we should never forget in here that people like this just want to avoid vet bills AT ANY COST even if that means a dead cat or kitten, that is preferable to many than a 150 quid vets bill.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

Tje said:


> we should never forget in here that people like this just want to avoid vet bills AT ANY COST even if that means a dead cat or kitten, that is preferable to many than a 150 quid vets bill.


Whilst I do understand why people naturally want to avoid unnecessary vet bills, I still can't get my head around the total lack of common sense! Surely it is obvious when your own pet has crossed that line between 'could get some help on a forum' and 'is beyond suggestions now and just need a vet'.

Perhaps this is one of my shortcomings - I tend to 'hope' people will make the right decision when push comes to shove, and hence why I don't fully agree with being over, over-cautious (I do still think there are times when this can be detrimental, and have experienced this myself in the past)

However, I also see that being too casual might strike a chord with the lazy, cheap-streak some people adopt (such as the example you gave Tje) and I'm sure that if laid-back advice was followed and it ended badly, they'd be all too quick to apportion blame here. Naturally this forum has a priority to protect itself and its members, and it must be very difficult to know where to draw the line.

Ultimately though. the onus *always* falls on the owner, and I tend to feel that much of the heated discussions here come from each member being very passionate, and taking on part of that responsibility themselves. It's not a fault - just a comment on how sometimes this responsibility HAS to be given back to the owner of whichever pet.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Definitely Class 1.
When giving advice on a forum to a person that is not known to the forum, you have to assume IMO that you are speaking to the lowest common denominator as regards animal care and experience.
Despite some claims of vast experience and research, you cannot assume that that is correct. Over the internet there are extraordinary claims made, as on the internet anyone can claim to be an "expert". Just because they claim to have owned cats for 20 years doesn't follow that they know anything about them, nor that "owning cats for 20 years" is actually true.

When a post involves what is obviously a sick or ailing pet or breeding animal then veterinary advice is needed in most cases, as how can we sitting here at our computer screens establish if what the OP says is true, is in fact true. "He didn't eat today", could be "he hasn't eaten for days". Owners of sick cats tell us what we want to hear sometimes, they know they will be scolded for leaving it for longer or not picking up signs, so alter the facts to make themselves look better. 
The person could have "sat" on the problem for days before coming on here. In the example given by BBM re the retained placenta, the kittens could have been delivered three days ago and the cat is now potentially seriously ill and literally hours may make a difference. Too blasé answers may sway them into waiting a bit longer and that may prove to be too late. 
It is all very well saying things like "I left my cat and she delivered the placenta 5 days later", however that is potentially dangerous due to the risk of serious infection and before saying such things and swaying the debate towards not doing anything, people should weigh up that risk, before opening their mouths.
I realise that experienced people do not run to the vet with everything but the point is that they *are* experienced and that as soon as they see something that worries them they are straight down to the vet; inexperienced people do not have that sixth sense.

We cannot do much about those who cannot afford to see vets or who do not want to pay to see vets, but all we can do is give that advice and be true to ourselves. I am not going to say "wait and see", if I think that would be extremely foolish and would be putting a life at risk.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> Definitely Class 1.
> When giving advice on a forum to a person that is not known to the forum, you have to assume IMO that you are speaking to the lowest common denominator as regards animal care and experience.
> Despite some claims of vast experience and research, you cannot assume that that is correct. Over the internet there are extraordinary claims made, as on the internet anyone can claim to be an "expert". Just because they claim to have owned cats for 20 years doesn't follow that they know anything about them, nor that "owning cats for 20 years" is actually true.
> 
> ...


Great post Lauren! Very well put!

And! I think there ARE some examples as it happens when forums CAN save life. Example (brought on by another thread) in the case of heat stoke - more important to cool the dog down PRIOR to calling a vet! AND NOT by putting in a bath of cold water which many do - but dabbed with tepid/lwarm water!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I totally agree TLC, the final onus is always on the cat owner. However, in the case I mentioned above, maybe this kitten would have lived if this particular poster hadnt followed one very dodgy piece of advice. Having spoken with the vet who finally saw the kitten, while the vet couldnt say conclusively one way or the other that this piece of dodgy advice was solely what killed the kitten the vet concluded it definitely _could have _killed it and it _certainly contributed _to the kittens death.

The time it took the poster to follow this advice and wait around to see a result, meant she was hours later getting to a vet at a time where speed was of the essence. Plus the tip itself was of the nature of could never help, would almost always make matters worse.

I think if this person hadnt followed the dodgy advice the kitten may have been strong enough to be saved by the time she finally remembered the free insurance and got it to a vet. This kitten paid double with this dodgy advice 1) the dodgy advice definitely weakened the kittens condition and 2) it delayed (even further) timely veterinary intervention.

So that does make me wonder (in this one instance)  if that dodgy tip wasnt out there to read this kitten might well have lived.

I wont repeat what the actual dodgy tip was (its *that* dodgy, I would be afraid someone else tried it. Present company excluded, I know no one in this thread is that daft, careless or heartless).

If people "like that" didn't read this forum and experiment at the detriment to cats health, I wouldn't be half as over-catutious as I am. I post on another "closed" cat forum.... I am much more open there as everyone there is experienced breeders or foster mums & perosnally known to at least one member and recommended to the forum by that member, and we have annual meet ups that 60% plus of the members attend. Granted, a much smaller forum than this one though.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

It never ceases to amaze me when people come on saying "help my animals really sick what can i do" and they HAVEN'T contacted a vet. Who in their right mind would consult the wisdom of an internet forum rather than calling the vet. 

The Internet is fantastic and i love it but everyone knows Googling random symptoms is ridiculously dangerous and can throw up allsorts of red herrings.

As far as i am concerned anyone seeking advice on a forum about a pet that is clearly in ill health should be given support and advised to contact their vet, it is the only responsible thing to do.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> When giving advice on a forum to a person that is not known to the forum, you have to assume IMO that you are speaking to the lowest common denominator as regards animal care and experience.
> 
> how can we sitting here at our computer screens establish if what the OP says is true, is in fact true.
> 
> ...


Lauren, I agree with everything you said :thumbsup:.... these bits above though I may just have to use myself, lol. They explain perfectly why I am the way I am, and why I think some advice is best left unsaid or only said in private to those we _know_ can handle that advice in a responsible manner.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

Tje said:


> I wont repeat what the actual dodgy tip was (its *that* dodgy, I would be afraid someone else tried it.


Seriously intrigued as to what on earth this advice was now!  lol.

I must admit, I am quite shocked that anyone would be daft enough to 'try out' something they read on a forum. Do people not go through their own thought process'?! - But then reading about what goes on out there in the world, people never fail to astound me!

It's not that I don't value what people say on here - quite the opposite actually. I've had some amazing tips; both on my own threads and simply by reading others. Food choices in particular come to mind. BUT I will always analyse carefully any advice which I believe might be detrimental - both to challenge my own belief and question the truth. Just as has already been said, we don't 'know' the reality of anyone's situation. They might say they are an expert, but by whose standards? Having lots of cats doesn't automatically make someone able to take care of my single cat.

Maybe we should have an IQ test before being allowed to join eh!?

tee hee


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Who in their right mind would consult the wisdom of an internet forum rather than calling the vet.


I hate to say it and come off sounding like an old f*rt, but young people are being raised in a society where the Internet IS life. Technology is my career, yet it still makes me sigh in despair!
Look at it this way.. when people find it 'normal' to post on fb saying 'driving to the cinema right now' and 'am currently in the shower'.. they are also the ones who are likely to consult the wisdom of an internet forum! This is an accepted 'normal' response now - 'must update facebook'


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

thelioncub said:


> I hate to say it and come off sounding like an old f*rt, but young people are being raised in a society where the Internet IS life. Technology is my career, yet it still makes me sigh in despair!
> Look at it this way.. when people find it 'normal' to post on fb saying 'driving to the cinema right now' and 'am currently in the shower'.. they are also the ones who are likely to consult the wisdom of an internet forum! This is an accepted 'normal' response now - 'must update facebook'


I know its mental. I do everything on the net, I love the fact i can find out just about anything in a few moments and order "christmas" from the comfort of my armchair but when i comes to the health and wellbeing of my family and animals i am happy with the "old fashioned" route


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I know its mental. I do everything on the net, I love the fact i can find out just about anything in a few moments and order "christmas" from the comfort of my armchair but when i comes to the health and wellbeing of my family and animals i am happy with the "old fashioned" route


sorry! i couldnt resist!

YouTube - Bill Bailey Live Emoticon Song Twitter Facebook (Dublin's 98 Morning Crew)

As for people searching the www for their own diagnosis treatments and even medications, it does happen - frequently.

Ive seen the results on a cat who was given multiple times the maximum dose of zithromax for a 10 month period.... he died of liver and kidney failure. The treatment was given by a well meaning but clueless owner who was sure of her own self diagnosis (which was wrong), and when it didnt work she just kept giving more and more and more.


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