# when should kits b re homed 6 or 8 weeks



## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

after speaking to my vet today we have decided to let toffee and patch have there babies then spay them. 
Any help will b apreciated.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Can I ask what made you decide that?

I would seriously urge you to rethink this and find a vet that will preform an emergency spay, you have no idea what recessive genetic defects they carry 
How are you going to rehome potentially 16 baby rabbits 



And kits shouldn't be weaned until 8 weeks minimum and not sold before 12 weeks IMO.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Because toffee is over 2 before she can be spayed she would need a number of tests done to.make sure surgery isnt risky. 
As she has only a few days left id.feel very wrong.aborting kits this close to the due date. 

Toffee is carrying a small litter the vet couldnt be sure but he said.were looking at 3 or 4 babies 
Patch looks to be having a few more.
The.kits will only be given to close friends and family. 

Im also worried as patch is a first time mum and ive heard they can reject there babies.
I no u do not agree on but any advice is appreciated


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

sorry.... but 2 is not old to spay, and you will need to get them done at a later date any way

80% of all female rabbits WILL develop uterine cancer which is a slow and painful killer

how does the vet know she is only having a small litter? did he do xrays? that is the only way you can say how big a litter is, you should never palpitate a pregnant doe it is not reliable and can damage both mum and kits, your vet doesnt sound very rabbit savy to me to be honest


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Because toffee is over 2 before she can be spayed she would need a number of tests done to.make sure surgery isnt risky.
> As she has only a few days left id.feel very wrong.aborting kits this close to the due date.
> 
> Toffee is carrying a small litter the vet couldnt be sure but he said.were looking at 3 or 4 babies
> ...


No 2 is not too old to spay in the slightest, I have had 7 neutered that have been over 2 without a single problem.

I'm sorry but I think it is wrong to allow the pregnancy to continue, you have a higher chance of losing your does allowing them to continue especially with their ages.

And WOW you have an awesome vet if he can tell that Toffee is only carrying 4 babies, palpatating does when pregnant can be extremely dangerous and by doing so your vet could have harmed the unborn kits already 

I urge you to find a decent rabbit vet (because yours obviously isn't rabbit savvy) and get your girls spayed.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Maybe i should look for a diffrent one unlesw someone can recomend one in my area.
And i no i will have both females spayed as soon.as the kits r.weined.
Were looking at them birthing in 7 days kits can be felt


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

sounds like you've got yourself into a sticky situation poor bunnies. 

If you are not going to have the girls spayed and 2 really isnt old! then you need to separate them, give them each at least a 6ft hutch which is kit proof so they cant fall down any ramps or crawl out the bars. each hutch needs to have a 6ft x 6ft minimum run permanently attached. 

You need to feed your girls plenty but not too much that it makes their poo sticky. 

give them plenty of hay to build their own nest and best of all leave them alone. taking them on a stress full car journey to the vets might have been enough to make them absorb the unborn kits. 

once you have managed to rehome any kits which will be hard in the present climate (all the rescue centres are packed with unwanted rabbits) and once your girls are spayed you will then have to spend some time rebonding them which might not be easy.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Maybe i should look for a diffrent one unlesw someone can recomend one in my area.
> And i no i will have both females spayed as soon.as the kits r.weined.
> Were looking at them birthing in 7 days kits can be felt


You do know that the vet could have just felt poo when he palpated right?
Please do the right thing and get a vet that will spay them


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Thank you. 
Ive already seperated both females to cages with runs.
When do i need to put in a whelping box.
Family and friends have said they want them ive made ot clear if ne time they cant have them.dont want them then i want them back.

And one of my females growls wen we open the hutch but still comes for fusses
The other is completely the opppsit she becomes more loving and lays on my cat.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

You know it's very sad to see that even tho you are risking your does you are still willing to go ahead


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Excuse me no rudness intended.
But its not a decission ive entered lightly. It wasnt a.planned prgnancy i no this and im not doing this to make money as if anything ill loose money.
Ive Spoken to a.vet looked on the internet and it all says b4 i have her spayed tests will need to be done.and this we dont have time.from
From what.ive read spaying her now with out these tests is more dangerous.than.letting her birth. 
If id know rabbit abortion was available when it.first happened id have 100 percent agreed with.you.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

what tests are you on about? there are no tests needed, at 2 a rabbit is still young!! rabbits are capable of living into their teens


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

B3rnie said:


> You know it's very sad to see that even tho you are risking your does you are still willing to go ahead


Some people are just a lost cause Bernie.

I agree with you though, I would have the kits aborted for the does sake. As a vet nurse I've seen does as old as 8 being spayed without any issue whatsoever, I've also seen does die from giving birth.

Do you know the genetic history for four generations for both the does? (Sorry if this has been covered I haven't read through everything properly.) You could be bringing very poorly rabbits into the world who will suffer for their whole lives. Dental problems are common in badly bred rabbits, I had a lop once who died by the age of three because of his dental problems. He became too weak to carry on and I lost him under anaesthetic.

This is a video I made for my lop Charlie who died at just three years old, he was still a baby in my eyes. He left behind his girlfriend who has never gotten over his death even now, she almost died herself due to the depression she went into after his death. Luckily I have a brilliant vet who saved her life even though he prepared me for the worst that she may not survive the night.
Charlie - YouTube


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Excuse me no rudness intended.
> But its not a decission ive entered lightly. It wasnt a.planned prgnancy i no this and im not doing this to make money as if anything ill loose money.
> Ive Spoken to a.vet looked on the internet and it all says b4 i have her spayed tests will need to be done.and this we dont have time.from
> From what.ive read spaying her now with out these tests is more dangerous.than.letting her birth.
> If id know rabbit abortion was available when it.first happened id have 100 percent agreed with.you.


What tests are you talking about?
I will repeat I have had 7 rabbits neutered that have been OVER 2, not one single problem and no tests.

Difference being I have a rabbit savvy vet 

You are risking your girls lives more by allowing this pregnancy to continue, I'm not sure what part of that you are finding hard to grasp????


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Im sorry if u feel this way as i said b4 if it wasnt so close to a due.date 100 percent id.have them aborted.
My.females will both be spayed. 

BUT AS I SAID ITS ADVICE I NEED.
Toffee isnt a first time mum she had a litter before 
Both rabbits are rescues. Homeing them will not be an issue.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Ill ask my partner as he took her but.one was a blood test. They said it was because the.anisphetic i also looked.this up and it said the same 

Can.anyone recommend a savvy vet in Kent


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Im sorry if u feel this way as i said b4 if it wasnt so close to a due.date 100 percent id.have them aborted.
> My.females will both be spayed.
> 
> BUT AS I SAID ITS ADVICE I NEED.
> ...


The bit I bolded is one of the very reasons why they DO need to be spayed, and if you think homing won't be an issue do you wish to tell rescues across the country your secret as there are over 35'000 rabbits in rescue at any one time across the UK.

I am giving you advice: *Find a rabbit savvy vet and spay your girls.....*

They have MORE risk going through with the pregnancy than there is with spaying, you do know also that rescues across the country have their vets do an emergency spay on almost a daily basis without any serious issues.

If you had spayed them when you first took them on this wouldn't even be an issue, so now do the right thing by them....


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Ill ask my partner as he took her but.one was a blood test. They said it was because the.anisphetic i also looked.this up and it said the same
> 
> Can.anyone recommend a savvy vet in Kent


No they do not need blood tests before spaying unless there is cause to do so, for example liver or kidney problems, if that was the case I wouldn't have had* 7* neutered after the age of two with no extra test with no problems.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

As ive said before due to ignorance im new to this forum and i dint realise.it was an issue untill a few days ago.
I


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> As ive said before due to ignorance im new to this forum and i dint realise.it was an issue untill a few days ago.
> I


So make it right now, get them spayed.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Because today a vet and internet told me diffrent. 
Clearly my vet isnt.very clued up.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

No, doesn't sound like he is very clued up.

I agree with the others, get them spayed now for their own well being if anything else


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

as they are rescues you can not allow them to have this litter, you have NO idea what sort of problems you will be inflicting upon the poor kits, it would be the kinder of 2 evils to get the does spayed NOW regardless of how far along they are

why werent they spayed when you got them? if they are both girls then how have they become pregnant

blood tests are NOT needed
no test is needed

best advice, CHANGE YOUR VET AND GET THEM SPAYED


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Look on my other thread.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

i would but i have no idea which it is =and im using my phone so cant really look through pages and pages.....


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm sorry but there are no excuses for this. Get them spayed ASAP. 

You say you want advice, well people have been offering advice throughout this whole thread.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Ok no dissraspect but 
Ive seen a vet and seacrch internet all say the same thing.
Now whos advice would u take a vets who is trainned
Or complete strangers who you no nothing about?

Now im asking for advice on the kits 
Not to have the decision made for me!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Don't mean to cause any offence, but to me aborting unborn baby rabbits days before they're due to be born is like aborting a baby just before it's due. That to me is totally unethical, people would never say it about a human baby, so why should it be ok to snuff out several little lives just cos their rabbits? If they are almost ready they will resemble proper little rabbits now in every way, their not just a bunch of blobby cells, their tiny living breathing beings, so why should it be ok for people to play God with them? Especially as the OP says that they have homes lined up, and will take any back if needed, so no extras in rescues. 

Natzzhixon, long time ago I had a rabbit who had babies. I was sold a missexed boy, who turned out rather obviously to be a girl when I discovered 5 babies. I didn't know squat about their genetic make up, why would I, I didn't even plan on babies, none had problems or ailments I just let my doe get on with raising them and when they got to 8 weeks I found them homes. I hadn't planned on them, I got a massive shock when I found them, and it caused a bit of a problem at the time, but even if I had actually known beforehand she was pregnant, no way would I have killed them just before they were born incase they weren't quite healthy - as there's just an equal a chance they'll be perfect.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Thank you its to know im not the only person who thinks this.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Don't mean to cause any offence, *but to me aborting unborn baby rabbits days before they're due to be born is like aborting a baby just before it's due.*


no it isn`t , a human has a choice as to whether to go ahead with a pregnancy or not; i`m sure if the rabbit could tell you , she would probably choose not to have them because she didn`t put herself in that position


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Ok no dissraspect but
> Ive seen a vet and seacrch internet all say the same thing.
> *Now whos advice would u take a vets who is trainned
> Or complete strangers who you no nothing about?*Now im asking for advice on the kits
> Not to have the decision made for me!


If thats the case then why ask for advice here in the first place??

Your vet doesn't sound very switched on where rabbits are concerned. No disrespect to you but it sounds like you have just read this info on the internet without taking your rabbits to the vet at all.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Don't mean to cause any offence, but to me aborting unborn baby rabbits days before they're due to be born is like aborting a baby just before it's due. That to me is totally unethical, people would never say it about a human baby, so why should it be ok to snuff out several little lives just cos their rabbits? If they are almost ready they will resemble proper little rabbits now in every way, their not just a bunch of blobby cells, their tiny living breathing beings, so why should it be ok for people to play God with them? Especially as the OP says that they have homes lined up, and will take any back if needed, so no extras in rescues.
> 
> Natzzhixon, long time ago I had a rabbit who had babies. I was sold a missexed boy, who turned out rather obviously to be a girl when I discovered 5 babies. I didn't know squat about their genetic make up, why would I, I didn't even plan on babies, none had problems or ailments I just let my doe get on with raising them and when they got to 8 weeks I found them homes. I hadn't planned on them, I got a massive shock when I found them, and it caused a bit of a problem at the time, but even if I had actually known beforehand she was pregnant, no way would I have killed them just before they were born incase they weren't quite healthy - as there's just an equal a chance they'll be perfect.


With all due respect these are not human lives we are talking about and are you saying that you would quite happily risk the death of your does and potentially having 16+ kits ALL with birth defects that could give them lifelong problems?
If the answer to that is yes, you need to take a step back and work in rescue for a little while to reevaluate.

I will repeat the does could DIE and the risk of that happening is VERY, VERY HIGH.

And to the OP in this instance I would take the advice of experienced rabbit owners (both myself and Lil Miss work closely with rescues and if you take time to read any of our posts you will see this) over a vet ANY day of the week, especially your vet as he knows nothing about rabbits.......

Don't why I bother yet again you are just someone that asks advice, you receive advice but because it isn't what you want to hear you wait for the first person that agrees with you, even tho they have no idea what risks are involved.
Maybe if you had done the research needed *before *you took on these does you wouldn't be in this situation. You didn't, so you are, so do the right thing for the rabbits. Not you, the rabbits.......


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> .
> Now whos advice would u take a vets who is trainned
> Or complete strangers who you no nothing about?


if i went to a non rabbit experienced vet then i would honestly listen to people who have owned rabbits for x/amount of years , after all they know , they`ve experienced it they`ve been through it and there have been happy stress free bunnies all round. btw , i don`t own rabbits i know bog all about them but IF i were in the same position with any of my guinea pigs , then i would be listening to what people had to say regarding their welfare and well being.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

diablo said:


> no it isn`t , a human has a choice as to whether to go ahead with a pregnancy or not; i`m sure if the rabbit could tell you , she would probably choose not to have them because she didn`t put herself in that position


Yes but only up to a certain timescale, then they would be refused as it's unethical, as it resembles a baby not a bunch of cells. I Agree that it would be for the best if the OP had caught them sooner (which they also agree with), but NOT days before they're due. Sorry but that is immoral to me.

A life is a life, whether human or animal.

Why should the mother die? There is a chance anyone could die in childbirth but it doesn't stop people having babies. Rabbits breed, their notorious for it, I'm sure hundreds of bunnies give birth out in the wilds every day no problems as nature intended. For that matter, there is also a chance that the bun could die being spayed but no one is saying don't neuter her. Why should the OP not risk her rabbit giving birth, but should risk it dying under anastetic for a spay?

There is every chance that they could be totally perfect and healthy, but even if any were born with serious problems/deformaties, they could ethically be put to sleep straight away by a vet to save any suffering, but at least that way you would KNOW for sure that something was wrong, not just end it's existence on the offchance.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Yes but only up to a certain timescale, then they would be refused as it's unethical, as it resembles a baby not a bunch of cells. I Agree that it would be for the best if the OP had caught them sooner (which they also agree with), but NOT days before they're due. Sorry but that is immoral to me.
> 
> A life is a life, whether human or animal.
> 
> There is every chance that they could be totally perfect and healthy, but even if any were born with serious problems/deformaties, they could ethically be put to sleep straight away by a vet to save any suffering, but at least that way you would KNOW for sure that something was wrong, not just end it's existence on the offchance.


There is much, much more chance there will be problems, but that obviously doesn't matter to you :mad2:


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## Pinkchi (Feb 5, 2011)

Oh my goodness what a pickle 

I'm afraid I agree 100%, they should have already been spayed and this never allowed to happen. It is very unethical to allow rescue rabbits of unknown backgrounds to breed, hence all good rescues have them neutered before being rehomed to prevent this. Allowing such rabbits to breed is very irresponsible and the health of your does and kits could suffer as a consequence. 

I assure you, spaying them now will have no more impact on them than spaying a non-pregnant doe. You may think it will be sad to 'kill' the babies, but your doe will never have known them, never known she had them, she will not miss them. She will not have to exhaust herself looking after them. If you let them have kits and they have bad health problems how guilty will you feel for allowing them to have them? They may destroy the babies or scatter the nest, could you cope with hand rearing all through the night and day? Potential owners will need to be informed of their lack of background and that if no health problems are showing they may well be carrying something genetically which could present itself through its lifetime.

No tests are needed to spay, none of my does ever had any tests before they were done. 

If I were you i'd get them both done and bond them together. You said they were rescues and ones already had a litter so haven't they been through enough?


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Edited as not about this OP 

Sorry


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

sorted...


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Birth is a few day away they are developed kits. Had i known this.in the begining then i would have 100 percent 
But im going with the vet.... 
A few days away to abort kits to myself is wicked who knows what this could.do to the doe so close to birth. 
And again if.my vet is saying i should test my doe to make sure she is ok for surgery 
And your vet just does it with out testing wich look more incompitant


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Edited as not about this OP

Amy


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

this is why im so glad my rescue doe was spayed as when i got bobz i didnt know he wasnt neutered as i couldnt see his furry pom poms in all the black fluff.

if it had been the other way round and it was the previous mate of my rescue doe which was a unknown unneutered doe that sadly developed cancer of the womb i would of gotten them aborted as with bobz and this one being [email protected] bunnies there is no telling what could of been produced!


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Edited, not about this OP will leave what I said as a general statement though...


Unhealth tested unknow herritage pets, rehomed and cashed in on. It not unethical to breed if you know the pitfalls and health of the parents ( and their ancestors etc) but in this situation it is unethical to breed from a rescued animal.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

A doe could die due to giving birth full stop. Not just in my case but.breeders.still breed. 
Toffee has had babies b4 with no fatalitys.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> And diablo these kits will only go to close friends and family.
> Those who dont get homed i will keep as this is my responsibility.


person who bred my guinea pigs said the same , they were quite delusional , wanted to be the best guinea pig breeder , ever. shame it all went completely t*ts up and it got to a stage so bad they couldn`t even give them away as they had so many


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> A doe could die due to giving birth full stop. Not just in my case but.breeders.still breed.
> Toffee has had babies b4 with no fatalitys.


It is ethically wrong to breed from rescued rabbits. Reputable breeders ensure they only breed the healthiest with the knowledge of past generations. Your bunnies were rehomed to have a better, secure life where they can relax and enjoy being bunnies.

Please get them spayed.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> I have no intentions of becoming a breeder
> Ive already stated i will not have a issue homin the babies
> All i want is advice on once kits r born


I suggest you have a long think about that, just because people have said now they want one doesn't mean they will have one.
Do these people know how expensive it is to keep rabbits?


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> I have no intentions of becoming a breeder
> Ive already stated i will not have a issue homin the babies
> All i want is advice on once kits r born


i`m sorry , but whether you like it or not , you are already `a breeder`.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Thank you. Very unplanned my nextdoor neighbours male got in my garden and they were behind the shed my poor daughter thought they were fighting.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

And birth is 5 days away


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Thank you. Very unplanned my nextdoor neighbours male got in my garden and they were behind the shed my poor daughter thought they were fighting.


And if they had been spayed then this wouldn't have been an issue 
You still have time to do the right thing, I know I'm not getting through to you but hopefully someone that happens to come by this thread in a similar situation might have the decency to think of their rabbits over cute babies


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

I'm reading this in amazement. You are asking for advice five days before the kits are due? I have lots of thoughts about the whole subject. Firstly my does are spayed ASAP due to the incredibly high risk of uterine cancer killing them. Secondly a doe should be mated before she has fully finished growing, in your case there is a risk their pelvic bones have fused znd there is a chance they will not be able to birth normally, especially in the girl who has not had a litter before. Thirdly once you know a doe has befn mated it is imperative you adjust her diet accordingly,to support herself, her pregnancy and her milk production. Fourthly....a whelping box??! What accommodation are they in? Is it kit friendly? Are you prepared for her scattering her kits? Do you know what to do if she does? How on earth a vet can tell you she is pregnant with four beggars belief. Risk of damage to the kits aside, there's no way they could know. Rabbit litter sizes vary with breed. Mine had eight. So worse case scenario you may have sixteen kits to home. Good luck. There aren't enough decent first class homes out there. I hope this all works out for you, I'm happy to advise you as much ad I can, but all this naieve talk about the kits innocent eyes....the kits aren't guaranteed to survive anyhow , in my opinion your first duty is to the mothers. There's a good chance that the birth may kill them and you will find them exhausted and in pain. I'd hate to risk my girls life like that. And as fit blood tests before a spay, codswallop. I had an emergency op on a facial injury on my dow recently, no chance of a blood test before that. Then her spay a month later. A rabbit savvy vet with good knowledge and confidence in rabbit surgery would not recommend that. I travel 45 minutes to go to one of the top rabbit vets in the country and she has never suggested that.


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

Apologies for bad spelling.....iPhone correcting typing and I'm tired!


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## wacky (Jan 23, 2011)

omg this is a hard thread if i were you i would get off here and go to golden bunnies they will give advice instead of ripping you apart oh and when my daughters boys were nuteted they had to have a health check before and i agree with you i wouldnt abort the chance your buns will die giving birth is slim rabbits are birthing machines they adaped well and dont have more than they can cope with .oh and to lops there pelvis does not fuse thats guniepigs oh and to your queston they should not leave there mum untill 8 weeks old just let her get on with it and have her babys oh and change to golden bunnies


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

wacky said:


> omg this is a hard thread if i were you i would get off here and go to golden bunnies they will give advice instead of ripping you apart oh and when my daughters boys were nuteted they had to have a health check before and i agree with you i wouldnt abort the chance your buns will die giving birth is slim rabbits are birthing machines they adaped well and dont have more than they can cope with .oh and to lops there pelvis does not fuse thats guniepigs oh and to your queston they should not leave there mum untill 8 weeks old just let her get on with it and have her babys oh and change to golden bunnies


Thank you.


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

wacky said:


> omg this is a hard thread if i were you i would get off here and go to golden bunnies they will give advice instead of ripping you apart oh and when my daughters boys were nuteted they had to have a health check before and i agree with you i wouldnt abort the chance your buns will die giving birth is slim rabbits are birthing machines they adaped well and dont have more than they can cope with .oh and to lops there pelvis does not fuse thats guniepigs oh and to your queston they should not leave there mum untill 8 weeks old just let her get on with it and have her babys oh and change to golden bunnies


Yep yep, I'm tired, fuse is wrong, bad choice of words, pelvis area tightens up, making birthing more difficult. Especially for bigger breeds like I have. Eight weeks for leaving mum was recommended or ADVISED to me by the lady I got my initial stock from, a highly respected breeder. I'm just passing that info on in an advisory way as requested 
But if you aren't getting the answers you need on here then yes, close the thread and try somewhere else by all means.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Ill up load pics


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

No just because 1 or 2 people disagree.
More people have been help here than internet coz it just contradicts its self


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> No just because 1 or 2 people disagree.
> More people have been help here than internet coz it just contradicts its self


I think the Internet can be good and bad, it's like on here you can always find different opinions. I was lucky that I had a wonderful mentor for my first litter, and that it was all carefully planned and she was only a phone call away. Trusting that all goes well are you going to get your does spayed afterwards do it can't happen again? Have a look on RWAF pages for some good advice. Like I say I'm confused over your dates but up the mums food and try and introduce more kale, spring greens etc to help with milk. Only if they are used to it though. And just keep them happy and relaxed and don't mess with them too much. What date will their 28-31 day be? Have they attempted to nest at all yet?


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Lopside said:


> I think the Internet can be good and bad, it's like on here you can always find different opinions. I was lucky that I had a wonderful mentor for my first litter, and that it was all carefully planned and she was only a phone call away. Trusting that all goes well are you going to get your does spayed afterwards do it can't happen again? Have a look on RWAF pages for some good advice. Like I say I'm confused over your dates but up the mums food and try and introduce more kale, spring greens etc to help with milk. Only if they are used to it though. And just keep them happy and relaxed and don't mess with them too much. What date will their 28-31 day be? Have they attempted to nest at all yet?


Yes i will be booked in to be spayed i only joind.this forum.4 days ago and.untill then i.didnt realise such issues.
The 31st say will be in 5 days 17th i believe. 
I no about the food etc just not when to put in a whelpping box etc.
Yes they have started nesting no hair loss yet tho


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

Mine didn't pull fur until she had had them. So don't worry about that. I'm not sure they need a box really, it's up to you, a rabbit nest made from hay and fur is absolutely wonderful and toasty warm. Hand on heart if it were me I would have gone to my vet as soon after I knew it had happened as possible for a spay, but I know my vet is super wonderful with rabbits so I trust her implicitly. Honestly I have friends from breeding and rescue, attitudes to rabbits welfare and what they are to people vary from the likes of me....OTT ruined rabbits no expense spared....my newest addition just cost me £500 in emergency and routine spay vet bills...to people who see them as an animal who can live in a tiny box and pop out babies and who will neck a rabbit without thinking twice. My honest belief is that if you own an animal you give it the best life possible. I'm sure you will get lots of varying advice, it's up to you to decide how you go.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Im a novice rabbit owner i had 2 girls and moved to a new housse.
My 6 year old daughter let them out there cage to explore 
Befor i knew it she was screaming mum there fighting. My next door neighbours rabbit had come in and was behind the shed with.mine.

Untill i joined this forum 4 days ago i didnt no this was a problem. 
Now i have roughtly 5 days till they give birth i.spoke to my vet and he advised me b4 toffee was spayed tests had to be run and i think its inhumaine to do it.so.close to birth
If id have known this in the begining id have done just that

As for not having them.spayed i.had 2 girls.never thought it an.issue till.simone.explained.y u get rabbits spayed


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

Fair enough, you probably know a lot more about rabbits now than you did four days ago! At the end of the day they are your pets and you decide what's best for them. But honestly, some people on here know a lot more about rabbits than some vets, it's good to learn from them. I was ignorant to a lot of rabbit care info until a got a bun from rescue that turned out to be a dental bun. And like most other people I learnt the hard way. I am happy now to stand up to a vet and say no, that's not in a rabbits best interest when it comes to treatments. I did this with my previous vet before I found Molly my supervet!! And I am still learning, we all are. I hope it all turns out alright for your girls.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Im a novice rabbit owner i had 2 girls and moved to a new housse.
> My 6 year old daughter let them out there cage to explore
> Befor i knew it she was screaming mum there fighting. My next door neighbours rabbit had come in and was behind the shed with.mine.
> 
> ...


Yet again your vet is wrong, all I can say now is you know all the facts as they are listed on this thread.

I implore you to search for a rabbit savvy vet in future, and a bit of advice when try getting your dates correct if you want people to take you seriously, when your dates change to suit your argument people won't take you seriously 

I hope for your does sake that nothing goes wrong, but the odds are against them *big* time. If you're happy to take that risk then I hope to god you are being truthful that you will take responsibility for any and all medical problems that will arise :aureola:


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

I'll just throw this into the mix, you say you will take responsibility for all the kits if they aren't rehomed. 

Think about this, I have an 8 year old doe, she was the result of bad breeding, she was bred from despite her own genetic problems, she had two litters by the time she was a year old. At a year old the bad breeder decided that this doe was no good anymore because she was agressive. My sister found out about this and told me, I went there and asked about the doe to be told she was going to be put down that day so I offered to take her insead. 7 years later I still have this doe, she isn't agressive in the slightest because I had her spayed a week after getting her. However she has dental problems caused by her breeding, she has no front teeth and had regular monthly dentals involving her being under anaesthetic once every month. She is 8 years old now and still healthy, she has never had any tests before having anaesthetic. I recently worked out she has so far cost me over £6500 in vet bills alone, thats not including food or hay. Can you afford that for each potential kit to be born? Possibly £6500 times 16 kits! 

For those that know me this is Rosie I'm talking about and you know what she's gne through with all her problems.

Oh and if I didn't have such a good rabbit savy vet who has saved Rosie's life twice now when she's been on the brink of death I don't she would have been with us for as long as she has. The cost of all her treatments would be a hell of a lot more as well if it was for my vet being so close to her and caring, he gives her fortnightly checks for free to make sure she's doing ok, everytime I take one of the others for routine stuff he asks how Rosie is doing. He has a file on computer with all the photo's he's taken of her teeth to show me and to use for research himself.


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## zowie (Apr 3, 2011)

Well,that took some time to read through this thread!! 

I can honestly say that i would ALWAYS take Bernie's and Lil Miss' advice. I trust my vet completely but i feel like my vet is there to do her job to her best ability where as Bernie and Lil Miss have had hands on experience of nearly everything and know the outcome of doing things certain ways. I would always come on here and ask if I had a query or a problem. 

I dont agree with breeding as i have also had problems with bad breeding with my Rosie. She had a swollen eye,she cost me £400 for 3 xrays ,anti-biotics and pain relief. Im not moaning about the money as I have a vet fund that i top up religiously but it was still alot of money considering it is her back teeth that have grown really bad due to her breeding and have caused her eye to pop out. She is still on medication now,its not getting any worse but the chances are she will have to have her eye out at some point as it wont be able to be kept as bay with on going medication. 

I suppose Iv been lucky in 3 and half years with 4 rabbits (touch wood ) Iv had one case of E.C with Elfie when he was baby and now Rosie's eye problems,but my friend runs a rabbit rescue and I know she is nowhere near as lucky and some of the cases she see's are heartbreaking all because people have bred for whatever reason. She neuters and spays as soon as she takes rabbits in and even with the amount of rabbits that she has coming into her,she has never had an accidental litter.

If i was in the OP's situation,i would have them spayed straight away regardless of how far into the pregnancy they are,its kinder on the does and the unborn babies. There really doesnt need to be any more rabbits born to sit in hutches all day when theres as many as there are in rescues already.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Im saying there wrong im not saying there righ. 
I no no one on here so to me there just people with opinions.

I didnt write to argue my case ive asked simply for advice on kits to wich.im constantly being hounded about abortion. 

Im not sayin there wrong im saying i personally cant do it.

Im not here for advice on spaying 
Im.here for.advice on kits.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Im saying there wrong im not saying there righ.
> I no no one on here so to me there just people with opinions.
> 
> I didnt write to argue my case ive asked simply for advice on kits to wich.im constantly being hounded about abortion.
> ...


you`ve posted about an emotive subject , the replies [especially with to regards what you want to hear] are going to be hit and miss.
you read every breeding section on the forum , especially on the dog and cat forums , you`ve been told something that hasn`t already been said before and while you might think it`s unethical to kill/abort a litter of rabbits you are in a minority. if you decide to go ahead and have the babies , its a fact as with any other animal that you are taking a big risk with your does.
just incase , i`d be looking for some info on hand rearing baby rabbits which is something i cannot advise because i`ve never had to do it.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

There seems to be a lot of personal argument on here and I'm going to close this to have a look and remove some of it if it is uncalled for.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I have now gone through all of this and taken out a lot of what was very uncalled for.
OP - the subjective of accidental breeding is always going to cause controversial argument and those advising abortion have done so with a good background knowledge. 
However abortion is a very, very emotive subject no matter what life is involved and not everyone will agree with it, even if it means risking the life of the mother as well as unborns.
If at all possible could either side involved make your points without resorting to the sort of personal comments that were being made towards the end of this thread.


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## wacky (Jan 23, 2011)

lymorelynn said:


> I have now gone through all of this and taken out a lot of what was very uncalled for.
> OP - the subjective of accidental breeding is always going to cause controversial argument and those advising abortion have done so with a good background knowledge.
> However abortion is a very, very emotive subject no matter what life is involved and not everyone will agree with it, even if it means risking the life of the mother as well as unborns.
> If at all possible could either side involved make your points without resorting to the sort of personal comments that were being made towards the end of this thread.


every body is entitilde to there oppinions but there are folks that think they know better than anyone ells and they sould not rip people apart they have no right to do that if they dont agree with something they should keep it to themselves and just answer the question being asked and by the way it is cruel to abort it is a risk the same as giving birth and i think some people on this forum are a bit rude and should not class every one but themselves as not having a clue thats why we defend ourselves you would do the same so i surgest you stop being biest


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

wacky said:


> every body is entitilde to there oppinions but there are folks that think they know better than anyone ells and they sould not rip people apart they have no right to do that if they dont agree with something they should keep it to themselves and just answer the question being asked and by the way it is cruel to abort it is a risk the same as giving birth and i think some people on this forum are a bit rude and should not class every one but themselves as not having a clue thats why we defend ourselves you would do the same so i surgest you stop being biest


There is certainly no bias intended on my part. I have stated what I think and removed posts from both sides of this argument.


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

In an ideal world a rabbit would have her first litter before one year old for health reasons. This unfortunately is not an ideal world. People have stated their opinions as to why it's more risky for this ladies does to go ahead with their pregnancy, and people have stated reasons why they feel she should allow to the does to go full time and kindle. It's up to her to decide the future of her rabbits after reading all the info and advice she asked for. As she has decided to go ahead with the litter then I'm sure there is no one here who is petty enough to withhold further advice if she asks for it. At the end of the day we all love our rabbits else we wouldnt be here. Having a pop at the moderator isn't helping. :confused1:


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## wacky (Jan 23, 2011)

Lopside said:


> In an ideal world a rabbit would have her first litter before one year old for health reasons. This unfortunately is not an ideal world. People have stated their opinions as to why it's more risky for this ladies does to go ahead with their pregnancy, and people have stated reasons why they feel she should allow to the does to go full time and kindle. It's up to her to decide the future of her rabbits after reading all the info and advice she asked for. As she has decided to go ahead with the litter then I'm sure there is no one here who is petty enough to withhold further advice if she asks for it. At the end of the day we all love our rabbits else we wouldnt be here. Having a pop at the moderator isn't helping. :confused1:


ere excuse me i wasnt haveing a pop merely stateting a fact and the op was asking how old should the kits be not weather she should give birth or not but instead of the answer she got jumped on about spaying and aborting why was that then she only asked how old should the kits be the certain persons should stick to the question being asked


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2012)

wacky said:


> ere excuse me i wasnt haveing a pop merely stateting a fact and the op was asking how old should the kits be not weather she should give birth or not but instead of the answer she got jumped on about spaying and aborting why was that then she only asked how old should the kits be the certain persons should stick to the question being asked


I suggest you re-read my first post on this thread. I answered that question. Please stop arguing as the thread will most likely get locked again and as I've been aware of the situation and gave loads of advice in the OP's other thread I was able to continue giving my opinion on what the OP had already told me 

No more here from me I just felt I had to defend myself because someone can't be bothered to read properly


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

wacky said:


> ere excuse me i wasnt haveing a pop merely stateting a fact and the op was asking how old should the kits be not weather she should give birth or not but instead of the answer she got jumped on about spaying and aborting why was that then she only asked how old should the kits be the certain persons should stick to the question being asked


Whichever section of the forum you look at, where an accidental mating has occurred you will always get these responses, no matter what question the OP has asked. Many people may not even realise that termination is an option where animals are concerned and might even think, 'you know what, that might not be a bad idea.' Others will be equally horrified by the thought and I'm not going to give my own opinion on that one way or another.
If posters can keep their comments - both sides - to facts, without being over-dramatic, bullying or making unwarranted personal comments then that's fine whichever side of the fence they are.
I want no more argument on this thread or it will be closed and left that way.


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

I replied to the question of age and got shot down by you I believe Wacky. It's up to the lady posting the question to decide which advice to take.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

I am going against the grain on this one. Its unusal for me not to put the same as what Bernie said normally but if I were the OP, this close to the due date, I couldnt abort them, simple as that. I would be taking a risk with the mothers, taking a risk that the babies are unhealthy, but they are just that, babies and it wouldnt feel right to just "get rid" That said, if I had known about emergency spays (which the OP said they didnt) it would have been done ASAP after catching the male with them in the garden.

The OP is looking for help on what to do when these kits arrive now, everyone has made their point on what they should do but the decision is made and now we need to be back to the friendly helpful forum that we usually are.

Unfortuntely births and kits are not something I can help with (or fortunately I suppose) so we do need you Bernie and Lil Miss who have experience to give the advice that is needed, regardless of how you feel about the decision, if that is possible guys?
Lets lessen the risk by telling the OP what to look out for, by helping her take care of these little-ones who didnt ask to be born in this way.

What I will say OP is that I too would be looking for a different "rabbit savvy" vet because they should never be telling you how many kits she is having because they shouldnt be palpatating anyway and if they do they cant tell whats what (which is why I had to wait the full 31 days when I thought I had an emergency because we just didnt know). Also I am another who has never heard of "tests" before having a 2 yr old bunny spayed, I think they may be out to get some extra money there (cynical but potentially true!)

*Heidi*


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

I am not trying to have an arguement nor cause trouble on the the thread so I don't know why my comments were deleted? OP was being told to kill her unborn babies and I said she shouldn't. I have been out all day and missed any replies, so I am going to ask again:

I agree the rabbits need spaying but AFTER the babies are born. Killing baby animals just before they're born is inhumane and immoral. I would be totally disgusted with any vet who would agree to it UNLESS the kits either had big problems, or there was a 100% no doubt about it certainty it would kill the mother. Just disposing of them without a second thought on the offchance things will go wrong is despicable.What is wrong with that?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Once again - posts on both sides of this were removed and some were removed for the sake of continuity. It was not about the rights or wrongs of termination.
I am not going to keep explaining my actions. The thread was in serious decline and I took action that I saw necessary.
Since the OP has been given advice on the original question I am going to close this thread. If she feels that she needs any further help she can post a new thread which I hope will not go the same way as this.


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