# How much supervision do kittens need? New To Breeding..



## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this forum but I've been reading some of your comments recently and you all seem to be very helpful. I'd love some advice on breeding.

We have a beautiful BSH girl who's breeder has very kindly put on the active register for us. I'm new to the concept of breeding and she is only 6 months at the moment so still very young. But when we do eventually send her to a lovely stud boy I want to be as prepared as humanly possible. 

One question I can't find a solid answer on, and this may be a silly one, is how much time do you realistically need to spend with mother and kittens? I know this is like asking how long is a piece of string but any advise would be much appreciated. I work full time and I know I will have to take at least a couple of weeks holiday. But when is supervision most required? When they're newborn 1-2 weeks or when they are older and moving onto solid foods?

Are there any hobby breeders who can advise on how you maintain a heathy litter and a full time job? Advice is much appreciated!

Thanks.


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

Welcome to the forum 

There's no easy way to put time limits on how much time you need to spend with mum and kittens - sometimes you need to spend more time with one litter than another i.e. if mum doesn't take to the kittens, mums a first timer, kittens are small and need topping up, kittens hard to wean etc etc etc x


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

I find myself getting up 1/2-1 hourly in the early weeks to let mum in and out of cage,move kittens etc,during the night! kitten squeals,im outta bed!


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Thank you both for the quick replies. They're much appreciated.

I know that kittens are a massive responsibility. I'm more than prepared for the sleepless nights and the end to my social life! What I'm most worried about is leaving them unsupervised during the day. I definately don't want to do anything that would be detrimental to mother and babies. If it came to an issue where they wouldn't be safe then I would reconsider breeding all together.

Does anyone else have this issue? Unfortunately, the breeders I know are also full time mothers themselves, and therefore at home with their cats.

Thanks again!


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

But the way, I've just checked out both of you photo albums. What beautiful cats you both have! You must be extremely proud!


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## Lumpy (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi

I'm not a breeder but thought I'd reply to your post anyway

I work more than full-time - two part-time jobs and work from home too - and my beautiful moggy Tabitha had a litter last year. I was really worried about her going into labour alone so I kept popping home every couple of hours when she was due. When the kittens were really tiny I found it much easier as Tabitha did it all and I just came home at lunch-time to check on them all. It was once the kittens were moving around I needed to be home more to make sure they didn't get into any mischief, even though they were in their own room and I didn't think there was anything they could hurt themselves on. 

After weaning I needed to pop home a couple of times during the day to feed the kittens.

I am fortunate in that my main part-time job is a community worker and my hours are flexible. I also do my admin and counsel from home. I personally wouldn't have been happy leaving a very pregnant cat alone all day and I think tiny kittens need checking on throughout the day too - but others may disagree.

I was very lucky in that Tabitha was a brilliant Mum and I didn't need to top up any of her kittens (she had five). I did, however, need to help during labour as she got very tired. She wanted me there too smoothing her brow and holding her paw

That's just my experience though - and I am not a breeder so it was all very new to me. It was a wonderful time - despite having no social life and lots of sleepless nights (Tabitha gave birth in my wardrobe) - and I am so pleased I shared it with her.


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

Dozymoo said:


> But the way, I've just checked out both of you photo albums. What beautiful cats you both have! You must be extremely proud!


LOL thanks hun  xx


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I am with them literally 24/7 and I have been getting up every 1 to 2 hours of a night so far, I am KNACKERED! 

But I knew it was coming! 

Be prepared for mum to reject them and you will have to hand feed them every 2 hours and through the night, things can go wrong, health tests need to be done, months of searching for th right studs to further the breed, genetics......... Fell up your cupboard with things you dont even know you need! Cos you will end up needing them!

Be prepared to spend all your wages in one month on supply's! and then a good stud boy and then lose a lot of money on your little babies!

I have just had my first litter of 8! 8! Mummy's normally have 1-3 if your lucky!
I was there when she gave birth and cried out in pain and looked into my eyes for comfort 

I had to help her give birth to a kitten that came out back wards and wasnt moving  I have to burst the sack and get stuff out of his mouth & rub he till he mewwwed!!  

I had to cut the cords & help mum eat the placenta (not me her!  ) lots of blood!


I have to help mum out now she is so tired bless her  

Research and never stop!


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> I am with them literally 24/7 and I have been getting up every 1 to 2 hours of a night so far, I am KNACKERED!
> 
> But I knew it was coming!
> 
> ...


I think coming from you as you're just going through it for the first time, it's fresh in your head and not routine like some of us - so this should help a lot  x

Good info hun xx


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

LousKoonz said:


> I think coming from you as you're just going through it for the first time, it's fresh in your head and not routine like some of us - so this should help a lot  x
> 
> Good info hun xx


aww thanks :blushing::blushing: that has cheered me up! :blushing:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I had several ltiters (not at the same time!) when I had a full time job. The thing is, with young kittens, you look after Mum and she looks after the kittens. In my experience most of the time everything is fine, and if something goes wrong with tiny kittens there isn't really a lot you can do. The only time when you really could have a problem is if Mum rejects the kittens or they have no milk and you have to hand rear them. If you have to do that with a full time job you will 1. be totally exhausted and 2. have to take the kittens in to work with you.

Liz


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## chestnut (May 27, 2008)

Hi we just had our first litter yesterday, Tamra is very clingy and want's me with her all of the time, so I am trying to accommodate her as best i can, I was lucky yesterday because i couldn't get the day off work so my hubby did and he did the midwifery. (I'm soo jealous) She has her babies in my bedroom so i have also been with her all night making sure all is well and kittens are being fed, with the odd snooze in between. (hubby slept with the kids) I'm back to work tomorrow so he will be on duty and on it goes i guess until she is feeling confident. It does feel worth it though Hope this helps. x


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

It's great that you're planning ahead and trying to find out all you can before deciding to have a litter.

If the birth is normal and mum knows what to do (it's rare that they don't), usually very little supervision is required for the first 3 weeks as mum will be with the kittens almost the whole time and all they do is feed and sleep. It's after that that things get a bit more tricky as you need to be around to help the kittens get started on solid food (although some just take to it with no trouble, others need a lot of persuasion) and you need to be certain that the kittnes are in a safe area while you're out, because at 5-6 weeks they think they can do anything, but are still a bit clumsy when it comes to climbing and jumping. Once they've had first vaccinations (8-9 weeks) they are probably safe left with the run of the house or wherever your other cats go.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

To be fair, the chance of mum rejecting her kittens is very remote - I can only remember this happening to me once, that's in 19 years of breeding, and it was only because she was very ill and had to have a c section to give the kittens any chance of survival. of course i had to hand rear them, but as i said, this is really very unlikely to happen under normal circumstances. I've had 2 other girls have sections and both were quite happy to feed and look after their kittens once they'd recovered from the anaesthetics.



Taylorbaby said:


> I am with them literally 24/7 and I have been getting up every 1 to 2 hours of a night so far, I am KNACKERED!
> 
> But I knew it was coming!
> 
> ...


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I work full time and breed. If you plan to take 2 weeks off then you should have plenty of time to ensure Mum and babies are settled with each other and the babies are putting on weight as they should or catch things if they are not going as they should. Things can go wrong, but you find a way round those, but thankfully those are few and far between. The worst thing is leaving them for that first day, but you come back and find them just as you left them, completely safe.

As people have said, Mum takes care of them when they are tiny. The more time consuming bit comes when you have to wean them I find, the stuff you have to do before work increases then. Plus be prepared when they have grown up a bit and are tearing round your house, to come back to a house that looks like a bomb hit it. Small kittens = huge lots of mess :thumbup1:

There is nothing nicer than getting through the door after a sh!t day at work, calling kittens and hearing herd of elephants racing down the stairs to say hi :biggrin:


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

To be fair though, as much as chance of mum rejecting kittens is remote, it happens x She's better off with all the information she needs straight off x

My girl rejected hers and we lost all but one boy x i spent 6 weeks bottle feeding as he wouldn't go onto solids until then, i was shattered when he eventually weaned x 

I was NOT prepared for this and had not been forwarned that it could happen for no apparent reason, so i think it is good for people who decide they want to breed to know these things just in case xx


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## Coccinellidae (Jan 20, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> Be prepared for mum to reject them and you will have to hand feed them every 2 hours and through the night, things can go wrong, health tests need to be done, months of searching for th right studs to further the breed, genetics......... Fell up your cupboard with things you dont even know you need! Cos you will end up needing them!
> 
> Be prepared to spend all your wages in one month on supply's! and then a good stud boy and then lose a lot of money on your little babies!
> 
> ...


I agree with every word.

I think you should think twice , no , 100 times, before you wanna breed. not every cat that have a pedigree and a womb needs to be breeding cat. 
the concept of breeding is to improve the breed you like, not having sweet kittens. 
it is not easy as it seems- and non experiences person may do things that will make the situation worth - ( i mean for the mum and the kittens)

for healty breeding you need to learn about your blood lines, genetics, health problams, and not only of your fmale, but the male as well. somtimes it looks like both of tham can give you sweet kittens, but genaticly, thay are not fit... 
you need to be ready that some will burn dead, some will die after birth , and some will be ill during there first 2-3 month . in the age of 2-3 moth they become very active- and than all you wish for - is some one to take them away from you .

i can keep on writing- but i guess its too much already! :blush:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> at 5-6 weeks they think they can do anything, but are still a bit clumsy when it comes to climbing and jumping.


Yes, isn't it horrible when they go "splat"!! :scared:

Liz


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Yes I know, and someone had already posted about all the things that could go wrong, so I just wanted to reassure that bad things are not actually that LIKELY to happen 



LousKoonz said:


> To be fair though, as much as chance of mum rejecting kittens is remote, it happens x She's better off with all the information she needs straight off x
> 
> My girl rejected hers and we lost all but one boy x i spent 6 weeks bottle feeding as he wouldn't go onto solids until then, i was shattered when he eventually weaned x
> 
> I was NOT prepared for this and had not been forwarned that it could happen for no apparent reason, so i think it is good for people who decide they want to breed to know these things just in case xx


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> Yes I know, and someone had already posted about all the things that could go wrong, so I just wanted to reassure that bad things are not actually that LIKELY to happen


yeah i got that, but just didn't want anyone to dull down the fact that these things can happen and it's heartbreaking x

When i first started out i got told some nasty horror stories, but it prepared me for a lot of things and i appreciated that x

It also made it even better when everything went wonderfully - so this is why i just find it's good to make sure people know the full story on breeding  x


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

The breeder of the OPs kitten knows all the downsides and issues with breeding, and has probably discussed all that with the OP, as they trusted her enough to put the kitten on the active.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I said it Could happen and to be prepared for it all, AFter all I was expecting possibly 4 kittens Not 8 and not be to feeding them and helping mum out! 

I didnt know 2 would come out backwards and that 1 wouldnt be breathing and Id need to help him out (his a porker now!) 

but I KNEW it Could happen so was prepared for it! I didnt panic I helped and I did it!

If people dont tell you to be prepared for Everything it Could happen and you sit there going 'ermmm I didnt think it could happen to me!'

If you are happy knowing it Could happen then you are prepared! 

As my dad says 'fail to prepare prepare to fail!'


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Hello Everyone,

Thank you all so much for your replies. Hearing about your all experiences has been really handy. Thank you! It's nice to know that other people manage to work full time and still breed their kitties. I'd hate to think that I'm being neglectful by doing this.

All I really want to do is be as prepared as possible when we do have kittens. Our breeder has been very helpful with the advice, I've visited shows, I spoken with our vet and my other half thinks I could open up a library with all the books I have bought. I am worried about the possibilities of things going wrong and becoming more complicated but I also feel like I am prepared to deal with them if they do.

If I need to take more time off work then I will gladly. But obviously, my boss won't allow me to take 13 consecutive weeks of work (wouldn't that be nice!) so I was wondering when that time would be best applied. By the sound of it, it's in the few days leading up to and immediately after the birth and then when the kittens are 4-6 weeks old and are more mobile. Does that sound reasonable?

Correct me if I'm wrong. I know that this is entirely dependent on the mother, the kittens and the circumstances.

Thanks xx


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

You do think you will never be able to cope in a crisis. You read and hear so much, the more you know the more you dread the birth, but you can do it when it comes to it. You have to, at that moment in time you have no choice and something else takes over. Afterwards you collapse in a heap.

The first time with a first time queen, its hard to judge when to start your holiday. They can go any time from 60 to 70 days from conception, although the average is 65. Too early and you end up with not enough time with the kittens at the other end and too late, you worry yourself to death that she could be going into labour. You will probably end up with too much holiday first off - days staring at a cats bottom waiting for signs. If you keep a diary in those days of changes in her appearance and demeanour, then it gets easier to predict the next time when she about to give birth - although that is by no means fool proof. A few days off when you are getting them to wean is a good idea.


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm new to this too, only had the one litter. I was glad I could be there at the start as one kitten couldn't feed properly, and I would have lost him if I couldn't top him up myself regularly. By weaning time he was fine and could keep up with the others. My girl was a first timer too and she wanted me close by, she wouldn't let anyone else around the kittens when they were very new, and I wanted to keep her stress to a minimum.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think it is possible to work full time and breed, but it is also possible to lose kittens while you are out at work. I think you need to be prepared for this.

Kittens can get ill and sickly very quickly and if you are not there then there is little you can do. I personally wouldn't want to do this.

I know things can go well, but you have to think of the worst case scenario. Cats can have premature labours, they can have very difficult labours, they do need Caesarians, they do reject kittens, they can have huge litters needing supplementation, kittens do need fed 2-3 hourly, they do get D and V and need 24 hour care, vaccination reactions etc. etc., I personally think that many kittens die while their owners are at work. It is put down to natural causes but I feel if someone had been watching over them when they stopped feeding/were looking ill, then they would mostly all be alive today. 
As you said yourself
"my boss won't allow me to take 13 consecutive weeks of work"
This many not be a popular view but I feel that if you cannot devote the time to them, then why on earth are you breeding cats in the first place?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

All the breeders I know who have not been around when their cat has given birth - and there are quite a few of those - have people that don't work and are technically at home 'all day' !!! They also have lost kittens whilst they haven't been there, had vaccination reactions etc. I work full time and none of those (touch wood) have ever happened to me.

If you are going to take that stance, you should also rule out anyone with small children. If your cat needs emergency veterinary care in the middle of the night, I just get them in the car and go, people with children wouldn't be able to do that.


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Well , yes I can, I would go and their Dad would watch the kids. As long as everyone has made appropriate arrangements, no matter what their situation, that's what matters .


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I am not saying that it is impossible to lose kittens while you are at home "all day" that would be a foolish thought, of course kittens can be lost with the best care in the world. Babies die in neonatal units every day.

I just feel if you cannot be there for them, then why would you put their little lives at risk by embarking on a breeding career as well as having a full time job? 

Fine, if things go well, but if they don't, then you are stuck at work while the kittens need their 2-3 hourly feeds for instance, no number of books will help if you cannot physically be there for at least 5-6 weeks until they are completely weaned. 

If you have a support network of competent people who can step in to help eg mums, grannies, friends, children etc, then it could be fine if they are willing to do feeds/watch kittens. But if not, then it could be a complete nightmare. I can't see many bosses allowing you to take kittens to work, unless you work at a vets or a zoo and even then they may be none too happy.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

So people that don't work sit in 24 hrs a day ? I don't think so. Kittens lives can turn in a moment, and someone who doesn't work could be out shopping.

I personally think people who work and breed, are more organised about cover and care for their cats because they have to be. Its not just kittens that fall into that category its adult cats as well. Making sweeping statements implying that breeders that work full time put their kittens lives at risk by leaving them is just ignorant and narrow minded, especially as you have no idea of peoples personal circumstances or the arrangements they have made with their friends family and their managers.

Mine is very accomodating and understands, when I had to take 2 weeks holiday to nurse a sick cat who was at home on a drip and had vet visits 2x a day, he was more than accomodating, as was my friends manager who allowed her flexible hours to ensure her cat was able to be taken backwards and forwards for regular chemo.

You may well have been unfortunate and only come across less dedicated breeders, but you have no place tarring everyone with the same brush.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Just for the record, coming out backwards (with a leg or tail presenting) is almost as common as head first presentation. True breech (bottom first) is rarer, just as with humans. It's true that if the head is born last, it can be a more difficult birth and the kitten often will need a bit of work to get it breathing properly. One of my stud boys (just neutered yesterday) was stuck for about 45 minutes before I could get his head out. It took at least half an hour of work to get him breathing, even then I was sure he'd die by the morning but obviously he didn't 



Taylorbaby said:


> I said it Could happen and to be prepared for it all, AFter all I was expecting possibly 4 kittens Not 8 and not be to feeding them and helping mum out!
> 
> I didnt know 2 would come out backwards and that 1 wouldnt be breathing and Id need to help him out (his a porker now!)
> 
> ...


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

One of my queen delivers all her kittens tail first


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> I didnt know 2 would come out backwards and that 1 wouldnt be breathing and Id need to help him out (his a porker now!)


That sounds about par for the course to me. You've been lucky to have 8 live kittens, that's the most I've ever had - had 9 once but two died, had 11 once 6 days early and they all died. You'll know about it once they start climbing your legs!! 

Liz


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Saikou,
I have obviously hit a nerve here, I am not talking about you. Why do people take things so personally?
I said it wouldn't be a popular view.

This lady hasn't even started breeding yet, I just feel she needs to know the pit falls.

Breeding in itself can be a full time job, thinking she can take off a few days here and a few days there, or even two weeks may not be enough if she does run into problems with her cat and its kittens.

I said if she has a support network then fine but if not, then things could get very complicated. Not many stay at home breeders leave their cats and kittens to go shopping for >8hours a day, five days a week.

I am so very glad you are so well organised with your full time job and that according to you, those "stay at home" breeders are out shopping and losing kittens right, left and centre. Perhaps they need a full time job!!!!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Dozymoo said:


> If I need to take more time off work then I will gladly. But obviously, my boss won't allow me to take 13 consecutive weeks of work (wouldn't that be nice!) so I was wondering when that time would be best applied. By the sound of it, it's in the few days leading up to and immediately after the birth and then when the kittens are 4-6 weeks old and are more mobile. Does that sound reasonable?


I'd take time off when the girl is due. Assuming you have to book it in advance, book the week from day 63 to day 70 gestation.

Liz


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Thank you all again for all the advice. You've certainly given me a lot to think about. I do have a very large support network who will gladly help if any additional help is needed. I'm certainly not thinking about going into this lightly.

I can see that everyone has hugely varying opinions on how things should be done. That is why I think forums such as these are so interesting.

So thank you again! x x


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> those "stay at home" breeders are out shopping and losing kittens right, left and centre. Perhaps they need a full time job!!!!


Amen to that!!!!

I think you will find a lot of people take things personally when they see their personal circumstances included in unfounded sweeping statements, based on what ??? Your assumption that must be what happens or personal experience ?

If being out of the house for 8 hrs sees lots of dead or dying neglected Mum and babies, then so does sleeping for that time in a different room.

The OP seems to me to have gone into this with their eyes open already, breeders like that need to be encouraged not spoken down to.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

It boils down to the fact that you are happy leaving your breeding cats/kittens for >8 hours a day, 5 days a week, in the care of someone else or alone, I am not. 
End of.

There is no point in continuing this argument, we will never agree..


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

:crazy: So what do you breed then ? Do you have a website ?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lizward said:


> That sounds about par for the course to me. You've been lucky to have 8 live kittens, that's the most I've ever had - had 9 once but two died, had 11 once 6 days early and they all died. You'll know about it once they start climbing your legs!!
> 
> Liz


HaHa! How sharp are they little claws!!? 

Oh I am so sorry, 11! that is amazing, that is such a shame that none survied  Im glad the other did of the other litter though  I guess it is something we have to know will/can happen and have ot prepared for it if it does, very sad all the same 

I am soo happy with them I told the vets today, took my other girl in and they All came out to see me! Im the talk of the vets (well my girl is!)haha!! :aureola:

They literally couldnt believe the weights of them at birth, they were All shocked they All survive!

I was like 'my cat is the best mum she can do anything!' :aureola:

They all weight on day 3 from (littlest!!) 122Grams-144Grams!! :thumbup1:

Mum has her own routine worked out I barely need to help her, its amazing what Nature and In stint does really, she knows when to move her leg to let a kitty get closer to her nip, if 2 are fighting she stands up 

Its amazing to watch!

Oh I dont work and I dont go out shopping, I have Everything delivered! I couldnt leave my girl alone I check on her all the time or sit with her and stroke her, the babies slept a little last night and she came out of her next & sat with me and purred for ages, lovely to see and so lovely she is sharing the experience with me :aureola: :aureola:


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## chestnut (May 27, 2008)

Hi, i would just like to say, we are hobby breaders, i work full time and have children. I guess we are all different, wouldn't the place be uninteresting if we all made the same decisions and choices. What we do and how we do it works for us.:thumbup1:

Anji


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## Coccinellidae (Jan 20, 2009)

*chestnut*

that is so right.

if you are working than don't have 20 cats at home- have the minimum number of cats! not any the kitten need attention.

And in my case - I did stay at home- And my kitten still died, cos he have a genetic problem. :sad:


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I make no apologies for working hard and paying my own way in life :001_tt2:


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