# HELP :-( - Insuring an American Pit Bull



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

Hello, new to the forum.

The police noticed me walking my pet in the woods on a lead (no muzzle) and seized my dog and arrested me.

My dog is a friendly, family pet who I have owned from a puppy for 5 years. I would consider myself as a responsible owner - he is *never* let off the lead.

I have been convicted under Section 2 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991.

My dog is an American Pit Bull, I have never contested otherwise and pleaded guilty at court.

The only chance to avoid a destruction order and get him back is for him to be added to the Index of Exempted Dogs (Ref: Direct.Gov Website)

Obviously the only thing I have a problem with is the last requirement;

*Conditions of being on the IED

* neutered
* tattooed
* microchipped
* kept on a lead and muzzled at all times when in a public place
* kept in a secure place so it can't escape
* insured against injuring third parties*

Does anyone know where I can get insurance for an American Pit Bull, I love him and can't bare to see him put down. Thanks.


----------



## k4r4 (Sep 20, 2009)

outrage_uk said:


> Hello, new to the forum.
> 
> The police noticed me walking my pet in the woods on a lead (no muzzle) and seized my dog and arrested me.
> 
> ...


I would say your best bet is to phone as many insurance company's as possible and see what they say


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I thought when the DDA came into force in 1991 all banned breeds were required to be neutered/spayed and if not destroyed, so I don't understand how you have a Pit Bull of 5 years of age. Surely they wouldn't have been bred anymore and the breed would no longer be in the UK - I thought that was the whole point of the bill - not that I agree with it though.

If I were you i'd be pleased they are giving you your dog back, although I think they'd have to DNA test him in order to confirm he is a true Pit, lots of Staffie x Mastiffs look like Pits - a larger version of the Staff really.

I don't know what you can do to avoid the requirements you've listed that you don't like - nothing I would have thought and if that's what you've been told to do i'd do it in order to protect my dog, because they could seize and destroy him if you are seen out after having an order served on you.

As for insurance, again you'd have to phone around and see what they say as i'd have thought it will be a tricky one.

Lets know how you get on and although I know Pits can be beautiful family pets, I really thought there weren't any bred in the UK anymore - along with all the other banned breeds.

Good luck, it must be awful for you to be in this situation.


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks for your quick replies - you're right it is an awfull situation 

Yes the whole point of the Dangerous Dogs Act was to kill off 'dangerous breeds' - unfortunately this didn't cover family members acquiring dogs, passing them on to you to look after, then after 5 years when you are totally attached and love them like a son - police to come along and take them off you 

I've spent hours online searching companies - can't find one that doesn't exclude 'banned breeds' (even if a court has ruled you can legally own them)

A call to Aviva and LV on the cards first thing tomorrow..

I will keep you all up to date


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

In dogs today magazine they section called insurance doctor. The guys called neil flint he runs vip an independant company offering free advice. Tel 0845 601 8575 9to6 mon to friday. Also theres something called justice for dogs think the lady is called anne harpenden. They help with legal advice and have helped people in your situation.


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks.....


----------



## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi,

That's an awful situation, so sorry to hear about your poor dog :frown:

You mention third party insurance, Dogs Trust do a membership scheme where you are protected for third party insurance. It's £20 per year and you get other benefits too:

Dogs Trust - Dogs Trust Membership

Dogs Trust - Membership FAQs

You could try giving them a call to see if you're eligible? I hope it works out for you, you must be heartbroken!


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I'm insured with Argos, they are very good and my third party liabilty cover is for £2,000,000.
The links above are very useful and I hope you have success - I know it should be "deed not breed" but you're in a real fix aren't you? I hope you get help and it would be nice for other's in similar situations to read your outcome.

If you can't get insurance and the outcome looks bleak get him DNA tested just in case he isn't a full Pit Bull, that way if he isn't you will have a case that's in your favour.


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

Thank you Shibby for the Dogs Trust links - I would be happy to donate £20, £50, £100, £200 or whatever it costs to the Dogs Trust to insure my Eddy.. but part of the T&C are:

"_*Any dog registered on the Dangerous Dog Act, regardless of breed, will not be covered by Dogs Trust third party insurance. Please see below for information about banned breeds.*_"

Thanks for your time looking though


----------



## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

outrage_uk said:


> Thank you Shibby for the Dogs Trust links - I would be happy to donate £20, £50, £100, £200 or whatever it costs to the Dogs Trust to insure my Eddy.. but part of the T&C are:
> 
> "_*Any dog registered on the Dangerous Dog Act, regardless of breed, will not be covered by Dogs Trust third party insurance. Please see below for information about banned breeds.*_"
> 
> Thanks for your time looking though


 Oh dear, I'm sorry about that. I'll keep a look out for you.


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Haven't read this as it's late but may be helpful for you. 

Episode 83 - Raising puppies and Justice for Dogs | DogCast Radio


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

You probably do know but in casn you dont. A new dog control bills going through now! The new legislation has passed its 2nd reading in the house of lords. Its still got a few stages to go before its law. Good news is legislation would no longer be breed specific. The petition can be found at Repeal and replace the Dangerous Dogs Act with better legislation Petition just found the article in your dog mag sept 2010 issue while seeing if i cound find justice for dogs contact details. Might be worth a look see.


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

Thank you Malmum for your kind words and recommending Argos - as with most companies, Section 7 of the General Exclusions of the Policy Wording reads;

"_*Your Pet being an animal which should be registered under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 and The Dangerous Dogs (Northern Ireland) Order 1991 or any subsequent amendments.*_"


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Bingo found it. Justice for dogs. We are here if you need us. Call us for legal advice and assistance on all aspects of canine ownership. Registered charity. 01544 370213


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Call us for legal advice and assistance on all aspects of canine ownership. Registered charity. 01544 370213


Thank you, on the call list tomorrow.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Re justice for dogs its free legal advice i missed out the free when i transcribed from the ad


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Did you see neil flint vip number for insurance too. What he doesnt know about pet insurance aint worth knowing its free too so got nothing to loose


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

I think this is the site for the Neil Flint VIP Insurance?: *www.vip4u.co.uk*

I've sent and e-mail to the address on the site explaining the situation so I await a reply. Fingers crossed - thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dont know only got fone in mag 0845 6018575. Prob is but no. Just in case.


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

Yes - the numbers tie up on the website.. fingers crossed :mellow:


----------



## Guest (Oct 4, 2010)

These people may be able to help
Dangerous Dogs Act - Breed Specific Legislation UK


----------



## Guest (Oct 4, 2010)

Might be worth trying the NFU but you wont get an online quote!

Assuming that is it just the public liability that you a looking for?

Another one worth a look woud be JBi again although you can apply online you will not get an online quote - they will call you with it!


----------



## Lady3131 (Nov 26, 2009)

Hello

Don't have much to offer in terms of advice but just wanted to say i'm so glad to hear of someone trying to abide by the law when it comes to these breeds. It's really refreshing to hear someone actively wanting to make the changes. 

It's a shame you hadn't neutered and muzzled before being picked up by the police but I have a lot of respect for you changing your ways to save your dog. So many just get left and forgotten about. 

I hope it all gets sorted out for you and you are reunited!


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

How can you insure a Banned Breed?


----------



## Lady3131 (Nov 26, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> How can you insure a Banned Breed?


I think in this country you can apply for a license to own them. If you have a license then they are not banned.....


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

OK DOGS TRUST:

states on their website that 3rd party cover is available for dogs on the dda once exemption has been put in place.

Dogs Trust - Membership FAQs


> Are banned breeds covered by the third party insurance?
> There are 4 types of banned breeds (Pit Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino and Fila Braziliero). They would only be covered if they are fully registered with the Index of Exempted Dogs and comply with all relevant legislation. Please note that this information is subject to change depending on any changes in the law.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Try here dangerousdogsact.co.uk | Welcome to DDAWatch - Supporting Fair & Effective Dog Laws


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

STOP PRESS:

01799 542287

these people run the index of exempt dogs on behalf of the gvt.... call them, ask for isabel grant... she will help you arrange 3rd party cover via petplan and help you put everything in place. IF there is no answer then put it on answerphone and she will call you back later today.


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

So confusing I would've thought Banned mean't banned after all they are banned for a reason.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> So confusing I would've thought Banned mean't banned after all they are banned for a reason.


You can't ban something that doesnt exist. The law bans pit bull *types* which can easily be created by cross breeding two perfectly legal breeds.

The law is basically saying that if your dog looks a certain way, regardless of breeding and heritage (also bear in mind that KC registered SBT's have been seized and destroyed as being "type"), that its dangerous, and will turn for no reason.

The law is stupid and concentrates on the wrong end of the leash.


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

sorry I was genually confused I was just asking.


----------



## Lady3131 (Nov 26, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> The law is stupid and concentrates on the wrong end of the leash.


Agreed! :thumbup:


----------



## francesandjon (Jun 3, 2009)

Hope you get this sorted out!


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

The law is stupid. 

1. How can there be any banned breeds as in 1991 the law required all to be neutered/spayed, therefore in theory anyway, there shouldn't be any offspring to carry the lines on?

2. They definitely are concentrating on the wrong end of the lead, as any dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands!

3. They should not pts any dog without first doing a DNA test to determine that it *is* actually what they *think* it is!

4. They should be concentrating on dogs being on lead in any public area unless otherwise stated. Streets and shopping centre's should require leash walking, as we've seen many an attack on other dogs by off lead dogs - the worst being attacks on guide dogs. Children have also been attacked in public places.


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Malmum said:


> The law is stupid.
> 
> 1. How can there be any banned breeds as in 1991 the law required all to be neutered/spayed, therefore in theory anyway, there shouldn't be any offspring to carry the lines on?
> 
> ...


There is no DNA test available to identify APBT. It is purely based on appearance, therefore the offspring of two legal dogs eg boxer x labrador can produce an illegal dog. There is an extremely good chance that the OP's dog is not an APBT at all.


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Lady3131 said:


> I think in this country you can apply for a license to own them. If you have a license then they are not banned.....


No you can't. The only process available is having the dog seized, voluntarily or otherwise.


----------



## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

Sorry haven't read the whole thread, but, if not already mentioned, unless I'm mistaken you are being asked to provide third party liability insurance, not full health insurance, contact the dogs trust, they offer a third party liability insurance for £20.... they would be my first stop personally.


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

kazschow said:


> Sorry haven't read the whole thread, but, if not already mentioned, unless I'm mistaken you are being asked to provide third party liability insurance, not full health insurance, contact the dogs trust, they offer a third party liability insurance for £20.... they would be my first stop personally.


They won't insure banned breeds.


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

There are real pitbulls about because people smuggle them in, the BBC did it and no one questioned it. 

It's awful that many are taken away purely by the fact they look like a pitbull, you can mix a lab to a terrier and get a pitbull type, it's that easy 

Good luck, sorry to hear you got caught it this but atleast you are able to get your dog back :thumbup:


----------



## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> They won't insure banned breeds.


 But is he a banned breed? His dog was deamed type was it not?


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> So confusing I would've thought Banned mean't banned after all they are banned for a reason.


Banned does mean banned and yes, there shouldn't be any pit bulls around now if the law was followed (unless one that had been a pup when the law came into being was still alive at the age of 20  ). However, let's face it, there probably isn't a law in the land that isn't broken and this is no exception.
I think generally the law is tolerant given that as they are illegal they could just pts, but generally, provided they are licensed and comply with conditions, most are allowed to keep their pets.

To the OP Good luck with finding insurance - I think contacting those specialising in this area is the way to go.


----------



## Lady3131 (Nov 26, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> No you can't. The only process available is having the dog seized, voluntarily or otherwise.


Really??? I didn't know that... seems very sad... 

When I rule the world, things will be different...


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Really??? I didn't know that... seems very sad...


The law was a ban... end of, it never allowed for dogs to be kept under license except those already in existence. As it banned the breeding of them they should have died out, but because they have been bred and owned illegally there are still many around. The law may be wrong, but it is still the law - and tbf as above, allowances tend to be made when they are seized or surrendered.


----------



## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I have not read through all the post but it may be worth contacting Justice for dogs, they may be able to put you onto an insurance company that insures Pits?
http://www.collienet.com/justicefordogs.htm
Mo


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> STOP PRESS:
> 
> 01799 542287
> 
> these people run the index of exempt dogs on behalf of the gvt.... call them, ask for isabel grant... she will help you arrange 3rd party cover via petplan and help you put everything in place. IF there is no answer then put it on answerphone and she will call you back later today.


I posted this earlier, but i think it got lost in all the replies and queries. OP please call these people who are in the unique position of knowing exactly where to get your insurance and offer other help.


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

kazschow said:


> But is he a banned breed? His dog was deamed type was it not?


That's why this law is so ridiculous, the other banned breeds are easily identifiable where as many crosses can look like a PIT!

Terrible situation to be in - hope the OP finds help in some of the links sent.


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

kazschow said:


> But is he a banned breed? His dog was deamed type was it not?


According to the OP APBT. However, I don't think there is a distinction between breed and type where the exemption list and insurance is concerned.


----------



## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

OP - Your dog will need to be insured by Petplan via Sabrefame, which is the company that deals with exempted dogs. No other company will provide cover for exempted dogs. The court should provide all required information but Billyboysmammy has posted Sabrefame's telephone contact and, if you want further clarification, DDAWatch can advise.

Contact Us | we want to hear from you so here are all the ways you can get in touch.



Malmum said:


> The law is stupid.
> 
> 1. How can there be any banned breeds as in 1991 the law required all to be neutered/spayed, therefore in theory anyway, there shouldn't be any offspring to carry the lines on?


The DDA 1991 didn't ban breeds, it banned "types". A 'type' is any dog, regardless of parentage, that substantially matches the characteristics of the relevent breed.

A perfectly legal crossbreed mating(e.g boxer/staff, ebt/mastiff/, sharpei/golden retriever) may produce a dog that, upon maturity, fits the above defitinion of 'type'.

In addition some legal breeds can also produce individual dogs that fit the definition. When you look at a pit bull and a staffie how similar would you say they are? 40%? 60%? 80%? Pit bulls are usually a bit taller and longer in the muzzle but the staffie standard was only recently reduced to 16" from 18" and there's still plenty of tall staffies about and a dog doesn't have to be a perfect example of a breed. It need only share a "substantial number of characteristics". In court, "substantial" means circa 60%. If a dog ticks 60% of the boxes for a pit bull then it is considered 'type', regardless of whether the owner can prove parentage.

That is why we shall never be free of pit bull 'types' because the population is being continually replenished from perfectly legal breeds.


----------



## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

OP - you may find this info pack useful.

http://www.ddawatch.co.uk/ComingHome-RegisteredDogsAdvice.doc


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

just pulling these to the top incase they get overlooked i really really hope you get your poor dog back



billyboysmammy said:


> OK DOGS TRUST:
> 
> states on their website that 3rd party cover is available for dogs on the dda once exemption has been put in place.
> 
> Dogs Trust - Membership FAQs





billyboysmammy said:


> STOP PRESS:
> 
> 01799 542287
> 
> these people run the index of exempt dogs on behalf of the gvt.... call them, ask for isabel grant... she will help you arrange 3rd party cover via petplan and help you put everything in place. IF there is no answer then put it on answerphone and she will call you back later today.


----------



## Guest (Oct 4, 2010)

What a sad state of affairs that this dog will never get to run free and do what dogs do.

It must make them un fit and frustrated. Its no life, just an existance!


----------



## ~jo~ (Jan 10, 2009)

This is sad hope you get sorted


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I have been wanting to reply to this, but I have found it so upsetting, imagining how I would feel if the police swooped and took my dogs away. I really feel for you. Wasn't that an American pitbull that was on Its Me or the Dog USA on Sunday? A lovely little dog, very sweet and gentle.

I have never believed there was such a thing as a dangerous breed and this proves it. Please try the links and numbers given; there must be something you can do.


----------



## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

sorry not had a chance to read the whole thread but you could try the NFU as they insure third party for a range of animals and may be able to help you.

Very sorry state of affairs I hope you get a positive result. If you have a good local farmer you could ask if you could use their land for some off lead exercise. 

I don't believe in blaming a breed for the case of a few individuals.


----------



## Ruth C (Sep 20, 2010)

Contact the Company of Animals in Chertsey Surrey. Dr Roger Mugford who owns the centre specialises in helping so called dangerous dogs and may well have some suggestions for you.

Good luck

Ruth


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> There is no DNA test available to identify APBT. It is purely based on appearance, therefore the offspring of two legal dogs eg boxer x labrador can produce an illegal dog. There is an extremely good chance that the OP's dog is not an APBT at all.


 Do you think these are scams then ,as i've read on another forum (champdogs I think) that DNA tests for breed determination was a viable option.

Dog DNA Test Doggie DNA Testing and Mixed Breed Canine DNA Testing For Dogs - Dog-DNA.com

Dog DNA Breed Test - LoveToKnow Dogs

I expect this wouldn't matter anyway if it goes by type but surely if this dog is a Staff x Boxer say, wouldn't that help the OP in some way?


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogs today did an article where the editor and staff sent in their own dogs dna to one of the labs that do it. Cant remember exact details now but the reports that come back were pretty ridiculous. From what i remember they sent sample twice for one dog and the report for the breed or breeds the dna contained was different!! So doesnt look like its accurate anyway.


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> STOP PRESS:
> 
> 01799 542287
> 
> these people run the index of exempt dogs on behalf of the gvt.... call them, ask for isabel grant... she will help you arrange 3rd party cover via petplan and help you put everything in place. IF there is no answer then put it on answerphone and she will call you back later today.


Just making sure you see this! Hope everything goes okay!


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

Just a quick update to say thank you to everyone offering support 

I have been on the phone to various people today and those who I could not get hold of, I have e-mailed.

Had a nice e-mail back from LV Insurance, same as the others saying they wouldn't offer cover but various links similar to what everyone has been suggesting.

No joy as yet with anything - Dogs Trust on the phone said they have had a few enquiries in the last couple of weeks alone; unfortunately as yet - their policy is the third party cover does not include those listed on the Dangerous Dogs Act  The women said PetPlan are the only ones she knows of who would offer any kind of cover and gave me a helpline number ( 0800 0726677 )

PetPlan immediately said no - they don't cover any breed on the DDA but when I said I had been referred from the Dogs Trust - he went and spoke to a supervisor that informed me they would possibly be the underwriters but would have to come direct from Sabrefame ( 01799 542287 ) ?

I tried this but there was no answer - then again it was near half past 5 - I will have to try again tomorrow.

Just to clear things up - my dog is an American Pit Bull (Red Nose), there is no disputing that in my case.

Once again, thank you for your kind words everyone, I will update you tomorrow..


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Good luck outrage_uk. Have you got any pic's of you doggie


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

definately try that sabrefam number, looks like billyboysmammy suggested it too. I wish you all the best with this. do you have a time limit? what is going to happen if you do or do not manage to get insurance?

I really feel for you and hope that you are reunited. Keep fighting for him!
p.s. pics would be MUCH appreciated in this pittie deprived forum!!! :thumbup:


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

He should be at home, he doesn't like it anywhere but home


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

outrage_uk said:


> He should be at home, he doesn't like it anywhere but home


aww bless him hes gorgeous, you must be positive and keep fighting till you get him back home.


----------



## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Good luck, hope you can get your boy back home where he belongs soon and the ordeal you both have gone through a distant memory soon.


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

His lovely, wishing you the best of luck in getting him back.


----------



## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

outrage_uk said:


> He should be at home, he doesn't like it anywhere but home


 That made me very teary. Poor wee guy.


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Good luck, I sincerely hope you can get your dog back. He is lovely


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Malmum said:


> Do you think these are scams then ,as i've read on another forum (champdogs I think) that DNA tests for breed determination was a viable option.
> 
> Dog DNA Test Doggie DNA Testing and Mixed Breed Canine DNA Testing For Dogs - Dog-DNA.com
> 
> ...


maybe not scams but unreliable. I think proof of parentage is viable but breed identification is limited to the info they have and breeds they can alledgedly identify of which the APBT isn't one of them. I would never consider a breed specific DNA test as conclusive.

The owners of Lennox presented a DNA test to the authorities in NI a while back showing he was made up of legal breeds - they weren't interested in the slightest. Furthermore, if a DNA test for APBT did exist then we wouldn't have dogs kept in kennels for months and years at great expense. You could identify the dog in a matter of days and proceed from there.


----------



## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

I really hope you get your dog back where he belongs, fingers and paws crossed here for you x

I think this should be make a sticky. There are a few people who have mentioned trying to obtain illegal pit bull type dogs and I feel it would be good for others to see what you are going through with your first hand experience of it all. 

Please keep us posted x


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks again everyone for your support - I am getting advise from where I can and I will keep everyone up to date - 2 months to sort things out. Fingers crossed


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

outrage_uk said:


> Thanks again everyone for your support - I am getting advise from where I can and I will keep everyone up to date - 2 months to sort things out. Fingers crossed


Great to hear, good luck. You will have to post when your baby comes home :thumbup:


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

really really hope you get him back home with you....he is lovely

please keep us updated when you get the time

juliex


----------



## BrucieBonus (Dec 7, 2009)

outrage_uk said:


> Hello, new to the forum.
> 
> The police noticed me walking my pet in the woods on a lead (no muzzle) and seized my dog and arrested me.
> 
> ...


Endangered Dogs Defence and Rescue - Helping Dogs In Need
good luck x


----------



## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

I don't know how I missed this thread 

You MUST contact Sabreframe. 
Their address:
Sabreframe Limited
PO BOX 47
Saffron Walden
Essex
CB10 1YD

Tel: 07000 783652

They run the exemption and compensation scheme for 'Dangerous Dogs'. In order to save your dog it MUST go onto the exempted index that they maintain, which means that it must be tattooed and microchipped, kept on a lead and muzzled when out and you have to maintain 3rd party insurance. They should be able to point you to an insurance underwriter - but it is likely to be expensive. I've tried all my contacts but can't find one. However, someone out there will be offering this insurance and Sabreframe will know.

Don't bother phoning round elsewhere - this is the ONLY way to save your dog.

Good luck.


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lol albert thats 3 of us that have given the numbers for sabreframe, including a direct dial to the lady she needs to contact!

Fingers crossed for him, he's gorgeous!


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

This is all very very sad  for you and your baby. Like everyone here I hope you can get this sorted asap, poor boy none of it is his fault, after all he didn't ask to be born yet he's the one who's suffering - and you of course.

I wouldn't be able to sleep if it were one of mine and I sympathise with you totally.


----------



## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> maybe not scams but unreliable. I think proof of parentage is viable but breed identification is limited to the info they have and breeds they can alledgedly identify of which the APBT isn't one of them. I would never consider a breed specific DNA test as conclusive.
> 
> The owners of Lennox presented a DNA test to the authorities in NI a while back showing he was made up of legal breeds - they weren't interested in the slightest. Furthermore, if a DNA test for APBT did exist then we wouldn't have dogs kept in kennels for months and years at great expense. You could identify the dog in a matter of days and proceed from there.


As you have written, DNA testing can prove parentage and whilst it may, with varying degrees of accuracy, provide an indictation of breed it will never be definitive in this regard. I'm sure some people will eventually _claim_ to be definitive but the fact is that there is no gene that determines breed. It may be possible to isolate a genetic marker that is statistically associated with APBT (or poodle or whatever) but it will always be possible to breed an APBT without the marker or another breed with the marker because that marker will not be what makes a pit bull a pit bull.


----------



## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> They should be able to point you to an insurance underwriter - but it is likely to be expensive.


I _think_ it's about forty quid.


----------



## gemmaleigh66 (May 27, 2009)

Information on Getting dangerous dog liability insurance

www.einhorninsurance.com/dangerous-dog-liability-insurance

dont know if they may help or point you in the right direction

hope you get it sorted 
x


----------



## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> lol albert thats 3 of us that have given the numbers for sabreframe, including a direct dial to the lady she needs to contact!


Yes, but it's worth shouting it! Well meaning as a lot of the other stuff is - Sabreframe is the only answer.

As a side issue - there are legal cases where the destruction of the dog can be avoided by transfer of 'keepership'. It has legal precedence and in the cases where it has happened it's been applied after the original owner was taken to court. It may not be appropriate here - but if it gets to being a last resort...

(And the websites in the previous post are not UK sites - so won't really help  )


----------



## gemmaleigh66 (May 27, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> So confusing I would've thought Banned mean't banned after all they are banned for a reason.


but snoopy if they are born before the law was made it doesnt mean they dont exist they were already here maybe? im not sure i dont know when the law came into place...........


----------



## gemmaleigh66 (May 27, 2009)

gemmaleigh66 said:


> but snoopy if they are born before the law was made it doesnt mean they dont exist they were already here maybe? im not sure i dont know when the law came into place...........


have just re-read posts and it was 20 yrs ago lol i suppose people have just gone ahead and bred them anyway, laws are broken everyday but i dont think the dogs should be penalised for it, they didnt ask to be born they just were ay, still a dog in my eyes and as prev post said being tarred with the same brush as a few naughty ones, hope you get this sorted xxx


----------



## Spook (Aug 10, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> I don't know how I missed this thread
> 
> You MUST contact Sabreframe.
> Their address:
> ...


Just putting this up in case it was missed. Good luck for you and doggie (what's his name?).


----------



## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Any news yet?

How are things looking? x


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

No news yet - I have just been asking about the legal complications on who does the neutering, tattooing and micro chipping - I would like to organise this myself where as it would appear the police can charge what they like and take him to where ever they want


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

outrage_uk said:


> No news yet - I have just been asking about the legal complications on who does the neutering, tattooing and micro chipping - I would like to organise this myself where as it would appear the police can charge what they like and take him to where ever they want


TBH if it means getting him back, let them take him where they want to, i know it means putting him with vets and practitioners your not able to controll... but if its arguing about this thats stopping him coming home then let them take him where they please.


----------



## Ren (Sep 21, 2010)

Wow, I'm more of a cat person really so I didn't even know that there are breeds of dogs that you aren't allowed to own! Considering he's a friendly family dog I think it's outrageous that they arrested you and threatening to 'destroy' him! I really hope you find a way to keep him


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Hope to god you get your baby back, I can't imagine being put into this situation 

Good luck ringing round and hope you get the results that you (and all of us) are waiting for x

PS.... please keep us updated, we'll go crackers if we don't get kept up to speed


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> if its arguing about this thats stopping him coming home then let them take him where they please.


Its not that I am not particularly concerned about which vets he goes to - I just want to see him as soon as possible - and as you can imagine as soon as he is out of the heartless police's eyes the better in my opinion.



Ren said:


> I didn't even know that there are breeds of dogs that you aren't allowed to own!


This is why the law needs changing and clarifying. I don't see anywhere in the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 that mentions breeds you can't own. I was seen in a public place with a lead but _without_ a muzzle  (there is no need as he wouldnt hurt anyone) - contrary to Section 2 (d). I suppose if its law they have to enforce it 

As soon as the law changes to keep charge of dangerous dogs the better - you can't discriminate against human races, sex, disability, age etc (for good reason) so why shouldn't the the same apply for dogs!


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> and as you can imagine as soon as he is out of the heartless police's eyes the better in my opinion.


I hope this doesn't come across as harsh as I do feel for you, but I think your attitude towards the police is misplaced. They are upholding the law and quite honestly, as it stands the courts do not have to let you keep him, they have the right to take him and pts.

The heartless person in all this is the heartless idiot that bred him in the first place and then sold him to you. 



> I don't see anywhere in the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 that mentions breeds you can't own.


Dog Law - Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 Section One-Information & Advice

Have a look here - I can't find anywhere that gives the original 1991 act online (probably because of the proposed changes) but as it stands the Act in 1991 made it illegal to own, breed, sell and buy any of the four banned breeds - pit bull terrier, dogo argentino, filo brasiliero and the japanese tosa.
Those in existence had to be registered, neutered and kept on lead and muzzled in public. Of course, that was 20 years ago, so by now, all those in existence in 1991 would have died by now. The problem exists because people have carried on breeding, buying and selling them illegally.

To be honest, I would hang around if he is held in kennels. Time is of the essence. If you really want them back, the microchipping/tattooing/neutering is the easy part - let them do it if that is a condition. Sorting out your insurance is the more difficult one and should be the priority.


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

For reasons which I won't go into here, other than saying its on going alleged Road Traffic offences which I successfully defended and was cleared in Court, I have been told 'off the record' of course, that the police are having 'the last laugh' on mine and my Eddys expense. They have seen him before, years ago - never been a problem. Whilst I accept I should have had him muzzled (just as motorists shouldn't speed) it's all too much of a coincidence, and the sooner he is home with me the better.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

They may have seen him years ago - I do think the police have become more proactive in the area of dangerous dogs legislation more recently (if they had in the first place then there would not be the problem now).

There may be an ulterior motive with you too due to your road traffic offences, although that is just supposition, and personally, I wouldn't waste time even considering that an issue. The bottom line is that you are (maybe unknowingly) on the wrong side of the law in illegally owning a banned dog and the law says it can take your dog and pts, no questions asked. You have been given an option to keep him and I would be doing all I could to get your dog out asap.


----------



## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

outrage_uk said:


> This is why the law needs changing and clarifying. I don't see anywhere in the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 that mentions breeds you can't own.


Paragraph (a) of subsection one of section one details "any dog of the type known as the pit bull terrier" and subsection three of section one states "no person shall have any dog to which this section applies in his possession or custody... " (with permitted exceptions).



> I was seen in a public place with a lead but _without_ a muzzle  (there is no need as he wouldnt hurt anyone) - contrary to Section 2 (d).


You must have been charged under Sec. 1 of the Act. Section two is just the bit that allows the secretary of state to add further breeds to the list. If you have been charged under *sub*section 2 (paragraph d) of section one that would seem odd to me and I would want to clarify the possible ramifications with a solicitor who is experienced with dog law. It's not as if having a muzzle would have legitimised ownership of an unregistered dog. I'd have a chat with Trevor Cooper.



> As soon as the law changes to keep charge of dangerous dogs the better - you can't discriminate against human races, sex, disability, age etc (for good reason) so why shouldn't the the same apply for dogs!


Too true.


----------



## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> The heartless person in all this is the heartless idiot that bred him in the first place and then sold him to you.


The heartless, idiotic law (and its makers) share culpability.


----------



## topseyturvey (Feb 1, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> and the law says it can take your dog and pts, no questions asked.


Actually that isn't completely true,they can't just take your dog and pts,they have to get the signature of the owner,the uk has the 1997 amendment,which means should the owner want to fight it then they can do so in court,the police usually apply for a destruction order under the act, the owner will have to prove the dog is not a danger to the public,it will then be added to the index of exempt dogs at the courts discretion,not automatically given a death sentence.

To the OP,I am really pleased your getting your dog back,just because he is a banned breed under this stupid legislation does not mean he is a danger.
I wish you all the best.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> The heartless, idiotic law (and its makers) share culpability.


I agree with you


----------



## outrage_uk (Oct 3, 2010)

Just to clarify - I have already pleaded guilty under the Dangerous Dogs Act - the fine / criminal record that goes with it is of no relevance - as long as I get Eddy home that is all I care about.


----------

