# colour genetics help please



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Need an expert here 
I can do the basics and know what to expect from matings of the 'original' Siamese colours but I'm stuck with the newer ones.
Mai Tai is blue point carrying chocolate and I usually use a lilac point stud giving me blue point carrying chocolate and lilac point kittens. I do however have the choice of two other boys and thought I might try one of them next time. One is seal point - no problem there, though I need to check whether he carries any blue or chocolate. The other boy is a caramel point and now I'm stuck as to what I can expect.
HELP ...... please


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## CatsofAvalon (Sep 22, 2011)

Can't help - but would love to know the answer!


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## Puindoors (May 19, 2011)

The Dm gene is dominant, so you only need 1 copy of it for it to be seen in dilute offspring. 
However you can only 'see' it if the cat is already a dilute. A non-dilute cat (seal, choc, cinnamon) can carry the Dm gene, but you won't see any effect on the cats coat.

So it depends on wether your girl is (or carries) the dilute gene as to what colours you'll get.
If she is blue, lilac, fawn or cream you'll get caramel and apricot kittens if the boy is homozygous for the DM gene, if he's heterzygous you'll get 50/50. 

If she's a non-dilute colour, you'll get no visual Dm kittens but they'll carry the gene to produce it in thier offspring.

To summerise you have 3 independant genes operating here, first the colour ( black, choc, cinnamon, red) then dilute which changes these colours to blue, lilac, fawn and cream) and the the Dilute modifyer gene ( Dm) which changes blue, lilac and fawn to caramel and cream to Apricot.

Dilute gene is recessive, Dm gene is dominant.

If its not clear feel free to ask again LOL


Emma
Purindoors Birmans


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Thanks for some teaching, Emma. As we don't have the cineamons in Persians, I'd not come across it or the DM gene. I've learned my something new for today!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Think I've got it 
So, my blue point girl with a caramel point stud should give me caramel point kittens. Does the fact that she also carries chocolate alter anything?


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

Thank you for the info, I was unclear on Caramel too, so it is a further dilution rather than a colour? So Caramel is the colour you get from the dilute modifier and both blue or lilac?

Can someone explain how you tell Caramel from Blue? I was worried I'd have kittens that I couldn't identify the colours of. At shows Caramels look dark blue to me, but then the points darken with age so unless I had a blue and a Caramel of the same age next to each other I think I'd be lost. 

Also to be sure of the colours you have bred you would need to know if the stud was Blue Caramel or Lilac Caramel - is that right? So Lymorelyn's girl carrying chocolate could produce Lilac caramel or blue caramel kittens - or am I confusing things as usual.

Genetics makes my head hurt!!!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Alaskacat said:


> Thank you for the info, I was unclear on Caramel too, so it is a further dilution rather than a colour? So Caramel is the colour you get from the dilute modifier and both blue or lilac?
> 
> Can someone explain how you tell Caramel from Blue? I was worried I'd have kittens that I couldn't identify the colours of. At shows Caramels look dark blue to me, but then the points darken with age so unless I had a blue and a Caramel of the same age next to each other I think I'd be lost.
> 
> ...


That's what I was wondering too  I have seen the stud boy and he doesn't look blue - more a dark lilac. I can find out from his owner, who also bred him but I assume he is a Lilac Caramel. 
Then I look at my Rosie who is lilac point and I think she is quite dark - her parents were lilac point and caramel point so is it possible she was miss registered and is actually a caramel point? Agh .... definitely headache time 
I might go for the seal point boy or just stick with the lilac boy I usually use or I can see myself registering kittens in the wrong colours


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Is the caramel blue or lilac based? what colour are his parents.....

Caramel looks sludgey and is the effect of the dilute modifier on the lilac or blue gens 

To know what you will get we would need to know the base gene as you say your girl carries chocolate? It's possible if he is lilac based that you would get blues, lilacs and caramels. If he is blue based you will get blue and blue based caramels.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Im glad raggies dont have caramel... :laugh:

I LOVEeeeeeeeeeee caramel Siamese though! :001_tt1:

interesting reading!!


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## Puindoors (May 19, 2011)

I'd personally be a little wary of going down the Dm gene route as its not yet possible to DNA test for it as far as I know, so there is no concrete way of determining wether your cat carries the gene or wether it is homozygous or heterozygous for the gene.

As its not always obvious visually to tell wether your cat has the gene, especially if its not a dilute, it'd be a bit of a guessing game.

I've not worked with the Dm gene, as its not allowed in birmans in the main registeries, I'm just a genetics nut!


Emma
Purindoors Birmans


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Thanks for all the input on this. I think I will stick with the lilac or seal  
It complicates matters even further when I say that Mai Tai also has silver oriental in her pedigree and as yet there doesn't seem to be any information on how that affects the colours of future generations. She and her kittens are all on the Siamese Reference register - not eligable for showing under GCCF rules.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

So, Emma, if there's a DM gene with a cineamon/fawn cat, what do you get? I know it wouldn't show up on the cineamon as that's dominant, right? But with the fawns, would you get caramel? That's what I understood from the post yesterday, but not so clear now. And where does the cineamon come from in the first place? Is it like chocolate in that it comes from one of the two base colours, i.e, red or black, but is there as a result of a modifier gene?


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

Thank you for explaining the DM gene, it is a bit like logging onto the forum and everyone else is speaking a different language though. Think I'll steer well clear of Caramels if there is no genetic test, goodness knows how many cats are registered wrongly, there's enough mistakes with the 4 main colours and patterns. (Says the owner of a "sludgy" blue point Siamese)


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## Kattkinkatt (Sep 13, 2011)

Can't give more input on origional question (both colours not allowed in NFC).

However the silver needs one of the parents to be silver for the offspring to be, it does not 'skip' a generation, so this does not affect/complecate matters. :wink:


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## Puindoors (May 19, 2011)

carly87 said:


> So, Emma, if there's a DM gene with a cineamon/fawn cat, what do you get? I know it wouldn't show up on the cineamon as that's dominant, right? But with the fawns, would you get caramel? That's what I understood from the post yesterday, but not so clear now. And where does the cineamon come from in the first place? Is it like chocolate in that it comes from one of the two base colours, i.e, red or black, but is there as a result of a modifier gene?


cinnamon is a further modification to black, its recessive to chocolate. So there is a dominance series of black dominant to choc, choc dominant to cinnamon.

As each cat only has 2 copies of each chromosome, it can only have 2 'versions' of the black gene, these 'versions' are called alleles.

So a black cat can carry chocolate OR cinnamon it can't have both.

A chocolate cat can carry cinnamon.

A cinnamon cat has neither the black or chocolate alleles.

Add in the dilute gene, you'd get blue, lilac and fawn. Add in the Dilute modifying gene you;'d get blue based caramel, lilac based caramel and fawn based caramel.

Would anyone be interested in a pamphlet explaining all this? I could produce one quite easily, I've done a bit of course writing in my time!

Emma

Purindoors Birmans


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Yes please - cinnamon, caramels and fawn definitely.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Emma, thanks for this. If you want help, I've already produced an article on the basics of genetics, i.e, the simpler patterns and colours. I did offer to put it up here a while ago, but nobody seemed interested back then.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Emma, thanks for this. If you want help, I've already produced an article on the basics of genetics, i.e, the simpler patterns and colours. I did offer to put it up here a while ago, but nobody seemed interested back then.


im interested:thumbup:


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

And me, to both of you, love genetics but struggle after the 4 main colours.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Yes please :yesnod::yesnod:
I have an excellent book with details of seal, chocolate, blue and lilac and also tabbies and torties but the writer says, Quote:* 'The new varieties are not included as these cats are unrecognised and outside the scope of the average breeder'* 
This book refers only to Siamese and was written in 1978


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## notsure (Sep 2, 2011)

Me three - I may never use the information (while I quite like the "idea" of breeding I know from this forum that the reality of breeding is hard work). 

However, I'm one of those people who love learning new things - on any subject. I'm also facinated by the way that members such as spid can take a couple of colours and reel off a list of possible offspring - and would love to get a better understanding of the hows & whys of it all. Biology was never my strong point at school (I was more maths, physics & chemistry).


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Kattkinkatt said:


> Can't give more input on origional question (both colours not allowed in NFC).
> 
> However the silver needs one of the parents to be silver for the offspring to be, it does not 'skip' a generation, so this does not affect/complecate matters. :wink:


If that is the case I wonder why the GCCF do not recognise the off-spring of Siamese with silver in the pedigree  The out-cross between Siamese and Silver Oriental is permitted and it is only the Siamese kittens of the mating that are put on the Reference Register and then their Siamese off-spring etc whether they are from Siamese to Siamese or Siamese to Oriental matings. Any Oriental kittens can be registered normally 
I've always been confused about this ever since I've had Mai Tai.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ok, I'll put up what I have in just a second in a new thread.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

New thread posted. Enjoy!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lymorelynn said:


> <snip>
> The other boy is a caramel point and now I'm stuck as to what I can expect.
> HELP ...... please


Depends if he is blue-based, blue-based carrying chocolate or lilac-based. If he is an established stud the owner should be able to tell you, and sometimes you can tell from the pedigree - often not though.

He will breed as per the colour he is, except that on average (!) either 50% or 100% of the blue & lilac kittens will be caramel. 50% if he is hetrozygous for Dm (has one copy of it), 100% if he is homozygous (has two copies of it).


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## CatsofAvalon (Sep 22, 2011)

Silver - I breed silver Orientals. 

I think that the reason for the reference register for GCCF re Silver pointed siamese, is because it is quite hard to tell that points are affected by silver in some cases, especially in the early months before the points are fully developed. This can cause errors with registering the kittens. 

Some of the other registering bodies do accept silver Siamese for show and breed, which is great, because they can be stunning! :smile5:

I'm not that experienced in the silver gene though, so anything anyone else can tell us would be fab. It's all fascinating.

Great genetics post, Carly, by the way.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> Depends if he is blue-based, blue-based carrying chocolate or lilac-based. If he is an established stud the owner should be able to tell you, and sometimes you can tell from the pedigree - often not though.
> 
> He will breed as per the colour he is, except that on average (!) either 50% or 100% of the blue & lilac kittens will be caramel. 50% if he is hetrozygous for Dm (has one copy of it), 100% if he is homozygous (has two copies of it).


Thank you - that makes it very clear :thumbup: He is a very well established stud, bred by the owner and I know she will be able to tell me all the details. I thought it would be nice to know before I decide which of her gorgeous boys to book next time I go


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

notsure said:


> ...
> would love to get a better understanding of the hows & whys of it all. Biology was never my strong point at school (I was more maths, physics & chemistry).


It's all maths so you should be fine! A chap called Roy Robinson wrote a very good book about cat coat genetics, not sure if it's still in print. Otherwise there is lots online. In the end it comes down to knowing the genotype of each cat, drawing a bit box and filling in what might come out. However a friend did several matings with her lilac-point BSH that should have produced a lilac self, the cat had 14 kittens from the 2 matings (6 then 8!) but no lilac self.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes, if you want to breed a particular colour you need to know. If OTOH you want to breed stunning cats with really good type then maybe the one with the best type, or the one that is strongest in the areas your queen is weak in might be the one to choose.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

CatsofAvalon said:


> Silver - I breed silver Orientals.
> 
> I think that the reason for the reference register for GCCF re Silver pointed siamese, is because it is quite hard to tell that points are affected by silver in some cases, especially in the early months before the points are fully developed. This can cause errors with registering the kittens.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that CofA :thumbsup: I had been told that by a very lovely Siamese and Oriental breeder but am still a little puzzled if the silver doesn't carry to future generations. 
I know TICA accept silver and my prefix is registered with them. I had originally thought of registering kittens with TICA or even dual registration but I like to keep things simple  and it did look quite complicated 
I have to admit it is all very interesting though :thumbsup: and a big thank you to those who understand the ins and outs of genetics :thumbup:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> Yes, if you want to breed a particular colour you need to know. If OTOH you want to breed stunning cats with really good type then maybe the one with the best type, or the one that is strongest in the areas your queen is weak in might be the one to choose.


Thanks again for your input 
I have always chosen the lilac point stud (we have had three litters from him and a fourth due next month with my younger queen) mainly because I love the colours but he and Mai Tai do produce some stunning babies (even if I say so myself) just a shame that because of the silver in her pedigree, they can't be shown , though none of their owners have worried about that.
All three boys have IGRCH status - difficult choice


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## notsure (Sep 2, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> It's all maths so you should be fine! A chap called Roy Robinson wrote a very good book about cat coat genetics, not sure if it's still in print. Otherwise there is lots online. In the end it comes down to knowing the genotype of each cat, drawing a bit box and filling in what might come out. However a friend did several matings with her lilac-point BSH that should have produced a lilac self, the cat had 14 kittens from the 2 matings (6 then 8!) but no lilac self.


Ah yes - that's the fun of statistics - just because statistically you should get a certain outcome x % of the time doesn't mean it will happen - ie if I flip a coin 10 times statistically you would expect that you will get 5 heads & 5 tails - doesn't stop me getting 10 heads in a row though :smile5:


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It can be the same with colourpoints too. If you breed a colourpoint to a solid carrying CP, statistically, 50% of the kits should be solids, and 50% CPs, but it usually works out to be far more solids than CPs. Typical!


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## Puindoors (May 19, 2011)

I always find wispering hopefully in the mum cats ear as to what I want/need in terms of boys/girls and colours means I'll get exactly the opposite of what I wanted LOL!

Next time I'm going to tell her I want what I don't want, and see if a bit of 'reverse psychology' has an effect - cunning plan or what


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## notsure (Sep 2, 2011)

Puindoors said:


> Next time I'm going to tell her I want what I don't want, and see if a bit of 'reverse psychology' has an effect - cunning plan or what


Which of course will be the one time she listens and you get exactly what you asked for


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## Puindoors (May 19, 2011)

notsure said:


> Which of course will be the one time she listens and you get exactly what you asked for


too true, even with all my careful research into pedigrees, planning and certificates in 'ologies', I think my lot delight in throwing a spanner in the works of my carefully constructed breeding plans just to remind me that they are in charge.

Then again these 'spanners' lead to more cat 'plotting' which I obviously hate doing LOL!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Puindoors said:


> Then again these 'spanners' lead to more cat 'plotting' which I obviously hate doing LOL!


Course you do Emma!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

carly87 said:


> It can be the same with colourpoints too. If you breed a colourpoint to a solid carrying CP, statistically, 50% of the kits should be solids, and 50% CPs, but it usually works out to be far more solids than CPs. Typical!


My friend's experience was the other way round!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Really? Cat's, who'd have 'em! Awkward monsters, they are!


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