# Do you stick to the feeding guidelines?



## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

My 6.5 month old dal is on wainwrights large breed puppy dry food with naturediet mixed in. 
I stick to the recommended weight for her dry food split over three meals but the wet food she gets is technically in addition to what she should apparently need. 
I don't think she's overfed judging by the fact that she's on good condition and her 3/4 poos a day are firm. 
However in the past few weeks, she's doing a really good job of convincing me that she's hungry  Particularly after her evening meal she sniffs around and whines for a good while before giving up and settling. 

Do I really need to stick to what the packet says as a blanket rule for all dogs? 
Or can I take into account how high energy and active she is and give her a little more? 
I'll be switching her to chappie dry shortly anyway - just waiting until we've got a changeover amount of her current food left.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I've never been able to feed any of mine the amount on the guidelines as its always been far too much for them and they gain weight. They are just guidelines so trust your own judgement on how well the dog looks, it she is still hungry you could try increasing it a bit but keep a close eye on her weight. I find my pointers need more food in the winter as they feel the cold so use up more energy keeping warm and also when they are in full exercise but I have to drop it again as soon as the weather is warmer.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have never really gone by the guidelines. Every dog is different, I go by what they look like. I think the only thing the guidelines are good for is to give you a guide to the rough amount they might need but certainly not an exact amount to be weighed out and stuck to.


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

Thank you  the cold makes sense. It's been very bracing recently lol.
I'll try that and keep an eye on her. She's a lovely shape at the moment - the vet mentions it every time we're in.
Of course I frequently get stopped in the street (usually by older people with a waddling dog) to ask if I'm feeding her properly because she's very slim 
Nah, that there is a 'waist'.


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## Aaleigha (Aug 27, 2012)

I myself start with the guidelines then keep an eye on the dog - if they start to look ribby I up the food if they lose their waist I give less

as all by two of my dogs have been rescues as older puppies or adult dogs I have to go by the guidelines in the first instance as I have no idea of what they were fed before and how much 

with my rescue puppy and my indulgence puppy I feed them what they will eat to start with and then keep any eye on their growth and then feed accordingly 

the guidelines are just that guidelines - dogs are not typical of a dog of the given weight on the guides -


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

More commonly than not, the guidelines are too generous rather than the other way around, but it really does depend on the dog. Some (like mine!) could eat triple their daily rations and still do a good job of convincing someone they were starving, so I'd just go by the condition of the dog - nice, lean and ribby (without more than 1 or 2 on show when on the move) and she's probably fine.

Any particular reason you're changing her to Chappie dry from the Wainwrights? It's a dreadful quality food.


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## Pasty Pastry (Oct 24, 2014)

Decent food will include not just age and weight, but also level of activity. But honestly, I take that as seriously as humans counting carbs and calories. I sure don't count anything other than my hunger vs my budget plus what I'm feeling like. Bloodwork says I'm fine. So will my dogs be. Plus, they get only the best.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

spots said:


> My 6.5 month old dal is on wainwrights large breed puppy dry food with naturediet mixed in.
> I stick to the recommended weight for her dry food split over three meals but the wet food she gets is technically in addition to what she should apparently need.
> I don't think she's overfed judging by the fact that she's on good condition and her 3/4 poos a day are firm.
> However in the past few weeks, she's doing a really good job of convincing me that she's hungry  Particularly after her evening meal she sniffs around and whines for a good while before giving up and settling.
> ...


The amounts on the food are just guidelines for some dogs it will be too much others will want a littlemore. Most often the guidelines for most dogs will be over rather then under. Some dogs too will just eat and eat anything you put down and then some. I have one like that and one who is good food wise and will seem to self adjust. Ive also had gluttons in the past

You are better going by eye and feel, that's often better then weighing them.
How to access body condition and the correct weight is below.

http://www.swaynevets.co.uk/downloads/dogBodyConditionScoring.pdf

Actually this may be better too see and follow especially if optically challenged like myself.

http://www.purina.co.uk/content/docs/downloadable-pdfs/bodycondsytempdf.pdf?sfvrsn=2


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

No not at all. Guidelines would suggest both mine should get fed similar quantities. Dalmatian needs almost twice the amount of food that GSP needs. If I fed GSP the same quantity as Dallie I would need a wheel barrow to move him.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2014)

Guidelines are always way to generous for my dog.

As for acting like they're hungry, my dog is a pro at that! She'll convince anyone that I never feed her  Unfortunately for her, I'm not stupid and she knows I don't give in so there's no point trying it on!


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

SixStar said:


> Any particular reason you're changing her to Chappie dry from the Wainwrights? It's a dreadful quality food.


I was wondering when I'd get asked about that 
It's recommended as a good low purine maintenance diet for Dalmatians to avoid developing urinary stones. Then if they do develop there are equally poor quality dry veterinary foods (royal canin and hills) used to partially treat the problem. 
Wainwrights was one of the more suitable puppy foods for her.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2014)

spots said:


> I was wondering when I'd get asked about that
> It's recommended as a good low purine maintenance diet for Dalmatians to avoid developing urinary stones. Then if they do develop there are equally poor quality dry veterinary foods (royal canin and hills) used to partially treat the problem.
> Wainwrights was one of the more suitable puppy foods for her.


Chappie is awful food, wainwrights good food.


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## Spidei (Mar 10, 2014)

I use feeding guidelines as a base for a while and then decrease or increase the amount of food depending on whether the dog eats all the food or leaves some, and how their body condition looks and feels (do they have a waist and tuck, can you feel the ribs somewhat?). I also take into the amount of energy they're using, so more exercise equals more food  
I also feed wet, so I make sure to reduce the amount of dry to make up for that. All dogs are different, some gain weight soooo easily and others drop weight like nothing.

Chappie isn't exactly a great food D: If you're looking for a low purine food, I know some of the ranges of Millie's Wolfheart (which as a bonus is great quality ) would be suitable. The ranges that would be good and can be recommended are Utility, Salmon and Veg, Turkey and Veg or Gundog mix.


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## dogkrazy (Aug 5, 2013)

I use the guidelines to begin with and then adjust it depending how the dog looks. After all, every dog is different


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## Pasty Pastry (Oct 24, 2014)

Chappie still exists? Man that's so 90s... 

Rule of thumb: if supermarkets have it, it's garbage.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Pasty Pastry said:


> Rule of thumb: if supermarkets have it, it's garbage.


Hmm, not so sure about that anymore.

Encore, Lily's, Lily's Kitchen, Butchers, Vets Kitchen, Arden Grange, Skinners, Lathams, Burgess Sensitive, Naturo...

Just a few examples of good foods available in various supermarkets.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Depends on the dog really. Rupert got more than double the recommended amount on any food, Spencer gets the top end of the recommended amount on the food he's on now, Shadow got less than half, Wolf got slightly more than the guidelines said. 

3 of the 4 have been very good at acting like they're going to starve to death at any given moment lol. If yours is a good weight but you think she may genuinely be hungry then try bulking her meals out a little with veg.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I recently changed to Happy Dog, and since I'd never fed it before I began by feeding the suggested amount. They have table scraps added, if they are suitable- and if they're are any left!


My dogs sleep in the garage which is unheated, and my young dog is extremely energetic, so I thought I may have to increase the amount for him- but he's done fine on it. He's in hard condition (his grampas owner always says he's too thin. But she's a show judge for the breed and I think show dogs are sometimes too fat) with plenty of energy and a shiny coat.

My older dog I feed a smidgen less to. He has arthritis so I prefer him on the light side. But as he's old, he seems to need a little more food to keep his weight steady.

I may invest in a heat lamp for the winter, but hey are doing ok so far.

BTW, dried chappie is absolutely fine. There's a huge amount of snobbery about dog food.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I dont go by guidelines, I dont even weigh their food. If they put weight on I cut back, if they lose too much I give them more. I always feed by hand and eye and adjust depending on how much exercise they have or have not had.


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

danielled said:


> Chappie is awful food, wainwrights good food.


Don't quite understand why you quoted my explanation of why it is a good option for *my* dog to make that pointless statement


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

Spidei said:


> Chappie isn't exactly a great food D: If you're looking for a low purine food, I know some of the ranges of Millie's Wolfheart (which as a bonus is great quality ) would be suitable. The ranges that would be good and can be recommended are Utility, Salmon and Veg, Turkey and Veg or Gundog mix.


I haven't opted for Chappie lightly. 
I've trawled the dry food index and looked at ingredients.
I'm 99% sure I was happy with a Millie's Wolfhart option (probably the inclusion of offal, game or gravy?) but I will check again. 
I won't choose a fish one as fish based food and treats always seem to give her a dodgy tummy. 
The benefit of chappie with her is I know it doesn't upset her stomach, where's richer foods tend to set off the dally belly


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> 3 of the 4 have been very good at acting like they're going to starve to death at any given moment lol. If yours is a good weight but you think she may genuinely be hungry then try bulking her meals out a little with veg.


Oh I'm used to dogs with their baleful eyes sucking their stomachs in lol. 
She just isn't food oriented and isn't staring a me - she's hunting around for something. 
I've given her more for breakfast and dinner (and a tad less at lunch) the past two days and she's settled down again. Straight to bed after grub


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> I dont go by guidelines, I dont even weigh their food. If they put weight on I cut back, if they lose too much I give them more. I always feed by hand and eye and adjust depending on how much exercise they have or have not had.


I did that when she was a pup - wasn't one to eat extra food just because it was there anyway. But now she has other people feeding her whilst I'm at work I like to know what's going in for sure.


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## Spidei (Mar 10, 2014)

spots said:


> I haven't opted for Chappie lightly.
> I've trawled the dry food index and looked at ingredients.
> I'm 99% sure I was happy with a Millie's Wolfhart option (probably the inclusion of offal, game or gravy?) but I will check again.
> I won't choose a fish one as fish based food and treats always seem to give her a dodgy tummy.
> The benefit of chappie with her is I know it doesn't upset her stomach, where's richer foods tend to set off the dally belly


Fair enough, do best by your dog. I hope she does well on it  Just wanted to suggest another option to Chappie, that was all. They do 200g/700g if you want to do a quick test and see if it sets off her stomach. It's such a shame she isn't good with fish 

If she's still hungry after eating, perhaps adding pasta, fruit and acceptable low purine vegetables might bulk it up a bit? Or some cheese every so often? Some dogs are always on the lookout for food, even if they're not actually hungry 

If no fish, then out of the ones I suggested it would be the Turkey&Veg which is:
Composition : Freshly Prepared Turkey (38%), Turkey Meal (31%), Sweet Potato (14%), Chick Pea Flour, Tapioca, Turkey Fat (4%), Turkey Gravy (2%), Pea Fibre, Tomato Pomace, Vitamins & Minerals, Glucosamine 175mg/kg, Methylsulfonylmethane 175mg/kg, Chondroitin Sulphate 125mg/kg, Dried Apple, Dried Carrot, Lovage Powder, Aniseed & Fenugreek, Seaweed Meal, Dried Cranberry, Camomile Powder, Burdock Root Powder, Peppermint, Dandelion , Thyme, Marjoram, Oregano, Parsley, Sage

There's no offal, turkey is a good meat for dogs who need low purine and not very much gravy 

If you ever wanted to potentially do a BARF/raw diet, here is a link to someone who adapted it for a dal who is a confirmed stone former: Link


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

If she's still feeling hungry after she's eaten her ration, there are 2 other things to consider: 1. does she eat very quickly (hoover/inhale the food)? If so, a slow-feeding bowl - there are several designs available - may help.

2. Can you feed her vegetables with her food?- my Mr Fatty (a food-aholic  ) likes to tell me he's starving, and sprouts, carrots or green beans help him feel fuller without piling on the weight. He currently has a celery stick to chew after his meal.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

I believe Burns is suitable for dogs needing low purine diets - and it does not contain the carcinogenic (cancer causing) additives that are in Chappie dry. But anyway, sounds as though your mind is made up.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Can people please justify the state ts they make as it will help me understand their arguments better.

I don't know that much about dog feeding ad a m trying to learn. State ts such as "xxx dog food is rubbish" and "xxx dog food contains carcinogens" doesn't add to the discussion.

Could people try to say why they are saying that. With links, of possible.

It also helps prevent the discussion degenerating into "well I _think_...!" Types of polemics.

Not getting at anyone. I know what it's like to hold strong views. Please can people justify them, though?


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I don't know that much about dog feeding ad a m trying to learn. State ts such as "xxx dog food is rubbish" and "xxx dog food contains carcinogens" doesn't add to the discussion.
> 
> Could people try to say why they are saying that. With links, of possible.
> 
> ...


Chappie contains BHA and BHT, both of which are proven carcinogenic additives. Don't have links to hand as it was confirmed to me via email quite some time ago.

Be great if you could do the same when saying ''xxx food is fine" or "xxx supplement doesn't work"


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

SixStar said:


> Chappie contains BHA and BHT, both of which are proven carcinogenic additives. Don't have links to hand as it was confirmed to me via email quite some time ago.
> 
> Be great if you could do the same when saying ''xxx food is fine" or "xxx supplement doesn't work"


Thanks for that-and point taken!

I have discussed this before on other threads.

Basically, that all food for dogs, sold as "complete" meets certain minimum requirements, calculated to meet the nutritional needs of an adult dog. This is worked out by vets, not the manufacturers. By law all dog food must meet this as a minimum requirement. This is in the UK. I don't know about other countries.

So, it's not accurate to say any food sold in the UK as complete is "rubbish". You're average adult dog will do fine on it.

Obviously, of you have a dog with special nutritional needs, you may need to try different foods-some will supersede the minimum requirements.

I don't want to denigrate the Food Index that someone has gone to a great deal of trouble to compile on this site. But it's one- non veterinary trained- persons view of dog foods. It's not based on anything else. It's interesting and informs you of the contents of food, but the conclusions drawn are those of an individual dog owner.

Please don't take offence, I am not minimising how much trouble has been taken and how interesting and useful the list is- but the classification of the foods is based in......what? I don't know. Just opinion, I think.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Thanks for that-and point taken!
> 
> I have discussed this before on other threads.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

Yes, it was me who complied the Index and you're exactly right, it is opinion only - I am, and always have been, very keen to make it clear that I hold no professional qualifications in the field. Just a long standing interest in canine nutrition, born out having numerous dogs with various dietary requirements over the years and having lost a dog to a disease caused at least in part to poor nutrition (a veterinary oncologists opinion, not mine). I look at the foods *ingredients* and suitability for the target species and give *my* opinion.

It helps a few owners which is all I ever set out to achieve but I take no offence whatsoever to it not being to everybodies taste.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

SixStar said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Yes, it was me who complied the Index and you're exactly right, it is opinion only - I am, and always have been, very keen to make it clear that I hold no professional qualifications in the field. Just a long standing interest in canine nutrition, born out having numerous dogs with various dietary requirements over the years and having lost a dog to a disease caused at least in part to poor nutrition (a veterinary oncologists opinion, not mine). I look at the foods *ingredients* and suitability for the target species and give *my* opinion.
> 
> It helps a few owners which is all I ever set out to achieve but I take no offence whatsoever to it not being to everybodies taste.


Have you read the new Linda Case book?

Dog Food Logic - Making Smart Decisions For Your Dog In An Age Of Too Many Choices eBook: Linda Case: Amazon.co.uk: Books


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

SixStar said:


> Chappie contains BHA and BHT, both of which are proven carcinogenic additives. Don't have links to hand as it was confirmed to me via email quite some time ago.
> 
> Be great if you could do the same when saying ''xxx food is fine" or "xxx supplement doesn't work"


BHA and BHT are mentioned in this link don't know if its one of the ones you have seem before or mean? Its American and a report by the Animal Protection institute, but a lot of the brands mentioned are sold in the UK too, as are a lot of the ingrediants used and mentioned in pet food here too.

http://ojaischoolofmassage.com/documents/PetFoodReport_05-07.pdf


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Have you read the new Linda Case book?
> 
> Dog Food Logic - Making Smart Decisions For Your Dog In An Age Of Too Many Choices eBook: Linda Case: Amazon.co.uk: Books


No, hell will freeze over before you catch me reading a book I'm afraid 

I'm perfectly happy with the food choices I make for my own dogs which is all, at the end of the day, really matters to me. And if my opinion on the Index helps others too, well, that's fine by me. It is not gospel, it is not a bible - just a starting block for people to do their own research should they want to look at it.

I appriciate the point about all complete foods being sold must be nutrionally balanced, but isn't that just like me living on a diet of bread but then taking a vitamin tablet? My nutrient needs will be met, but I can't imagine being the healthiest on it. That is why I think it is important to look at the ingredients of dog foods too.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> Thanks for that-and point taken!
> 
> I have discussed this before on other threads.
> 
> ...


If you read the bottle on a human a-z multivitamin, you will see it says, not to be used as an alternative to a balanced diet. A cheap bag of dog food that states chicken flavour legally needs to contain 4% chicken...96% could be cereal by products, does this sound nutritious to you? To be then called complete it is fortified with artificial vitamins and minerals, the same found in human vitamin pills, then to stop it going rancid it is laced with carcogenic preservatives. Compare this to say Orijen, your dog is getting what it needs from the ingedients and not something cooked up in a science lab. Preserved naturally with something that benefits the dog, and also you wont need a shovel everytime your dog has a poo.  So yes the cheap food is rubbish and cheap for a reason. It is also very much worthy of a red in the dry dog food index!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> If you read the bottle on a human a-z multivitamin, you will see it says, not to be used as an alternative to a balanced diet. A cheap bag of dog food that states chicken flavour legally needs to contain 4% chicken...96% could be cereal by products, does this sound nutritious to you? To be then called complete it is fortified with artificial vitamins and minerals, the same found in human vitamin pills, then to stop it going rancid it is laced with carcogenic preservatives. Compare this to say Orijen, your dog is getting what it needs from the ingedients and not something cooked up in a science lab. Preserved naturally with something that benefits the dog, and also you wont need a shovel everytime your dog has a poo.  So yes the cheap food is rubbish and cheap for a reason. It is also very much worthy of a red in the dry dog food index!


 can you please back up your your statement "laced with carcinogenic preservatives"?

What is wrong with dogs consuming cereals?

Please can you justify statements made, otherwise we could all just say any old thing.

Thanks.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> can you please back up your your statement "laced with carcinogenic preservatives"?
> 
> What is wrong with dogs consuming cereals?
> 
> ...


Yes bha, bht and ethoxyquin to name a few. They need some kind of preservative obviously to stop the food going rancid. Artificial preservatives are cheaper than natural.

Well aside from being less digestable than meat, i dont think there is anything wrong with feeding a dog cereal. Better foods contain whole cereals, cheap foods contain cereal by products, hence why people like Nestle own dog food companies aswell as human breakfast cereal companies. Use the scraps from the cereal production and make a massive profit out of it. Saying this I dont think it is very natural for a dog to be living on cereal as its main food source, looking at dogs teeth will satisfy your scientific reasoning with that one old shep  I think dogs have adapted to live on carbs because of man.

May I ask if a £6 bag of dog food from pound stretcher is perfectly fine....why are you wasting £20 a time buying Happy dog?


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2014)

I have always estimated the amount of food to give my dogs on their size as trying to follow exact guidelines can be very time consuming and also a bit misleading. 

I have for the past twenty years fed all of my dogs a pescatarian diet which has consisted of Happy Dog Vegetarian Mix (now called V Dog traditional Flakes). V Dog contains soya products, vegetables and cereals and I mix it with either tuna fish, mackerel or some salmon or sardines. It might sound expensive but it actually works out to be less expensive than feeding them dog food. Rosie and Peggy, Sally's mum and sister both lived to a really good age 16 and a half and 17 and had no serious illnesses during thier lifetimes. My dog Sally is nearly nineteen and throughout her life she has been a bundle of energy, less so now obviously but she's still going strong. (She also loves cooked soya cottage pie and cooked rice and vegetables with her fish).


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> Yes bha, bht and ethoxyquin to name a few. They need some kind of preservative obviously to stop the food going rancid. Artificial preservatives are cheaper than natural.
> 
> Well aside from being less digestable than meat, i dont think there is anything wrong with feeding a dog cereal. Better foods contain whole cereals, cheap foods contain cereal by products, hence why people like Nestle own dog food companies aswell as human breakfast cereal companies. Use the scraps from the cereal production and make a massive profit out of it. Saying this I dont think it is very natural for a dog to be living on cereal as its main food source, looking at dogs teeth will satisfy your scientific reasoning with that one old shep  I think dogs have adapted to live on carbs because of man.
> 
> May I ask if a £6 bag of dog food from pound stretcher is perfectly fine....why are you wasting £20 a time buying Happy dog?


The antioxidants you mention ( which is what BHA and BHT are) are necessary to avoid fats from going rancid.

There is no conclusive evidence they cause cancer and are approved for inclusion in human and animal feed. There is actually some research going on into their possible anti-cancer properties. 
There have been some studies which show some antioxidants may be indicated in some cancers in some animals (particularly a type of lab rat which is extremely susceptible to cancer- the reason it's used in cancer research). However, there is at least one study which showed they had a cancer preventative property in some dorms of frogs.

I'm it sure what you mean by cereal by products. Can you explain!?


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> The antioxidants you mention ( which is what BHA and BHT are) are necessary to avoid fats from going rancid.
> 
> There is no conclusive evidence they cause cancer and are approved for inclusion in human and animal feed. There is actually some research going on into their possible anti-cancer properties.
> There have been some studies which show some antioxidants may be indicated in some cancers in some animals (particularly a type of lab rat which is extremely susceptible to cancer- the reason it's used in cancer research). However, there is at least one study which showed they had a cancer preventative property in some dorms of frogs.
> ...


BHA and BHT are banned in some countries.

You have picked out a study to support your argument and ignored other studies.

Vitamin K3 has been shown to have anti cancer properties yet both UK and USA have deemed in toxic enough to ban it in human food supplements, yet it is allowed in dog feed as a vitamin k supplement.

You still havnt answered why you choose not to feed the cheapest feed on market, yet argue that all dog foods are good as they are `complete`?

cereal by products.....

Peanut hulls
Corn cobs
Oat hulls
Rice hulls
Soybean hulls
Cottonseed hulls
Brewer's rice
Almond shells
Grain fragments
Powdered cellulose
Fermentation waste


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have said this elsewhere, and i'll say it here. This is just my opinion, but it's based on logic. Many people feed their dogs a cheap food and argue that their last dog lived to be 15 years so it must be a good food. Well, in the grand scheme of things 15 years isnt really long enough to see any long term side effects from eating rubbish, i'd have to wait longer than that to get Asbestosis or lung cancer (and i'm referring to the carcinogenic properties of many ingredients in cheap dog food).

A dog food that is labelled 'complete' has to meet the minimal requirements to keep a dog alive, thats pretty much the crux of it. Hell, i've been eating utter crap for 37 years (no fruit or veg ever passes through my gob) and i'm still alive, but am I thriving? Absolutely not, fact of the matter is i'd do far, far better if I ate a balanced and nutritious diet. So, a dog food that is 'complete' and one that actually promotes good health are worlds apart.


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

Spidei said:


> Fair enough, do best by your dog. I hope she does well on it  Just wanted to suggest another option to Chappie, that was all. They do 200g/700g if you want to do a quick test and see if it sets off her stomach. It's such a shame she isn't good with fish
> 
> If she's still hungry after eating, perhaps adding pasta, fruit and acceptable low purine vegetables might bulk it up a bit? Or some cheese every so often? Some dogs are always on the lookout for food, even if they're not actually hungry
> 
> ...


Thanks  
I think it was the gravy and the peas as ingredients that are recommended to be avoided but as they're further down the list there probably isn't much in there.
Now I know they do small bags I may give it a go and see how her tummy is.


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

SixStar said:


> Chappie contains BHA and BHT, both of which are proven carcinogenic additives. Don't have links to hand as it was confirmed to me via email quite some time ago.
> 
> Be great if you could do the same when saying ''xxx food is fine" or "xxx supplement doesn't work"


I didn't know that.
I'll check out the MSDS database at work.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> I have said this elsewhere, and i'll say it here. This is just my opinion, but it's based on logic. Many people feed their dogs a cheap food and argue that their last dog lived to be 15 years so it must be a good food. Well, in the grand scheme of things 15 years isnt really long enough to see any long term side effects from eating rubbish, i'd have to wait longer than that to get Asbestosis or lung cancer (and i'm referring to the carcinogenic properties of many ingredients in cheap dog food).
> 
> A dog food that is labelled 'complete' has to meet the minimal requirements to keep a dog alive, thats pretty much the crux of it. Hell, i've been eating utter crap for 37 years (no fruit or veg ever passes through my gob) and i'm still alive, but am I thriving? Absolutely not, fact of the matter is i'd do far, far better if I ate a balanced and nutritious diet. So, a dog food that is 'complete' and one that actually promotes good health are worlds apart.


It's all down to what constitutes a "balanced" diet for a dog. AFAIK, the regulations are based on precisely that.

Dogs didn't evolve to eat prime cuts of meat- they evolved a digestive system to eat our leftovers- possibly supplemented with the odd rat or squirrel.

Not that I'm promoting rubbish, rats and squirrels.


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

spannels said:


> If she's still feeling hungry after she's eaten her ration, there are 2 other things to consider: 1. does she eat very quickly (hoover/inhale the food)? If so, a slow-feeding bowl - there are several designs available - may help.
> 
> 2. Can you feed her vegetables with her food?- my Mr Fatty (a food-aholic  ) likes to tell me he's starving, and sprouts, carrots or green beans help him feel fuller without piling on the weight. He currently has a celery stick to chew after his meal.


She eats all of her meals out of slow feeders. 
She gets some table scraps on occassion but I had to be so sparing with the veggies or we end up with runny poos


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> It's all down to what constitutes a "balanced" diet for a dog. AFAIK, the regulations are based on precisely that.
> 
> Dogs didn't evolve to eat prime cuts of meat- they evolved a digestive system to eat our leftovers- possibly supplemented with the odd rat or squirrel.
> 
> Not that I'm promoting rubbish, rats and squirrels.


Yes, the regulations are based on science that was around in the 90's, we know far more now about a dogs diet than we did then.

Neither did dogs evolve to eat cereals or grains. I know they have their uses in dog food and not all are bad but since this discussion came about over the OP wanting to feed their dog Chappie, and these are the ingredients:



> Ingredient(s): Cereals (min. 4% Whole Wheat),Derivatives of Vegetable Origin,Meat and Animal Derivatives (min. 4% Chicken),Oils and Fats,Minerals.


It begs the question as to what precisely _are_ the ingredients as it's all very vague, impossible to make an informed decision as we do not know origin or percentages, and thats where the guidelines fall short. Does this sound nutritious and complete to you?

I have edited to add that I fed my dogs Chappie dry for a period of time and I cant actually complain about their health at the time on it, so i'm not just talking off the top of my head. However, I fed them that purely because I was in between full time jobs and couldnt afford much more. I wouldnt feed them on it long term though.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Dogs did evolve to digest cereals 

And all this talk of "known carcinogens" is pretty alarmist. And meaningless.

All sorts of everyday things are known to cause cancer in certain circumstances and in certain concentrations. Including sunshine 

The antioxidants in dog food are also found in human food. They are NOT "known carcinogens"

I have said this already.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> Dogs did evolve to digest cereals
> 
> And all this talk of "known carcinogens" is pretty alarmist. And meaningless.
> 
> ...


The antioxidants BHA (E320), BHT (E321) and Propyl Gallate (E310) have long been suspected of contributing to cancer. The fact that you feed your dog a naturally preserved £30 dog food, rather than a £10 artificially preserved food with meat and cereal by products shows you are just arguing for the sake of it.

Sunshine does cause cancer, which is why people wear sunscreen


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> Dogs did evolve to digest cereals
> 
> And all this talk of "known carcinogens" is pretty alarmist. And meaningless.
> 
> ...


Can you show me evidence or a study that dogs have evolved to eat cereals?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> Can you show me evidence or a study that dogs have evolved to eat cereals?


Don't need a study. Domestic dogs produce the enzyme amylase ( which converts starch to sugars). Wolves don't.

Here's a recent piece on it. 
Genomes of modern dogs and wolves provide new insights on domestication - The University of Chicago Medicine

The domestication of the dog is really interesting. There's loads of good literature about it.:thumbsup:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> The antioxidants BHA (E320), BHT (E321) and Propyl Gallate (E310) have long been suspected of contributing to cancer. The fact that you feed your dog a naturally preserved £30 dog food, rather than a £10 artificially preserved food with meat and cereal by products shows you are just arguing for the sake of it.
> 
> Sunshine does cause cancer, which is why people wear sunscreen


Oh dear!

I have said before, the jury is out about these antioxidants (hence the allowed use of BHA and BHT in HUMAN food.)

If it was a "known carcinogen" as has been (wrongly ) stated, it would be banned in human food.

As I have also said before, there is conflicting evidence about the effects of exposure to these two antioxidants. Some actually show it may protect from some cancers in some animals. Some show it may contribute to some cancers in some animals.

I can provide links. But no one reads them.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> Oh dear!
> 
> I have said before, the jury is out about these antioxidants (hence the allowed use of BHA and BHT in HUMAN food.)


In some areas they are banned from human food  Wasn't that long ago a pesticide was used in the same role in commercial dog food.

Commercialisation has more to do with reasoning for things even when dangerous. Cigarettes don't cause premature death after all. 

Science has also shown animal protein is better for dogs than vegetable protein.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> Oh dear!
> 
> I have said before, the jury is out about these antioxidants (hence the allowed use of BHA and BHT in HUMAN food.)
> 
> ...


So if some studies show it contributes to cancer then why feed it :

If the jury is out on any ingredient, why feed it when their is alternatives?

I will say it again, if you truly believed artificial preservatives are fine, you would not be paying a premium for a naturally preserved product.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> Dogs did evolve to digest cereals





Old Shep said:


> Don't need a study. Domestic dogs produce the enzyme amylase ( which converts starch to sugars). Wolves don't.
> 
> Here's a recent piece on it.
> Genomes of modern dogs and wolves provide new insights on domestication - The University of Chicago Medicine


It is true that dogs produce Amylase but only in the Pancreas, they lack the Salivary Amylase found in true omnivores. Wolves also produce Amylase just not in the quantities dogs do.

The fact is that dogs are primarily carnivores that have adapted to survive as scavengers around humans, they can exist on many foods... including some vegetable matter/cereals/fruits. However, surviving & existing are a long way away from thriving.

Dogs don't require any Carbohydrates in their diet, at all, if fed the correct amount of meat based proteins/fats. They can synthesise all their energy requirements from those.

A high cereal food isn't appropriate for dogs, it's a way of keeping the costs down for the manufacturer...

IMO always look at the ingredients before you buy, try to choose a food with a named meat source 1st on the list... some grain is OK but something like Bakers which lists Cereals (not even which kind) 1st is an instant no-no for me.

OH, to answer he OPs question.. no I don't follow the guidelines because that's all they are, guidelines! Every dog is different


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> So if some studies show it contributes to cancer then why feed it :
> 
> If the jury is out on any ingredient, why feed it when their is alternatives?
> 
> I will say it again, if you truly believed artificial preservatives are fine, you would not be paying a premium for a naturally preserved product.


I don't know where you get the idea I feed expensive food- I don't even know what foods are "naturally preserved" or even what it means.

I usually feed Supadog sensitive (my old dog has a bit of diarrhoea with some foods) but currently feed Happy Dog because it was on promotion at SKC and I got 4 bags for the price of 3.

Where did I say I fed expensive food? I have always maintained there is no NEED to spend huge a mounts of money on dog food.

Black adder: I was challenged by goldenretrieverman to "prove" that dogs could digest cereals, as he was stating they couldn't. I think we just did that. I never said they should have a diet of solely carbohydrates.

My problem is dog food snobbery and the belittling of people who (for whatever reason) choose to feed inexpensive complete dog food. It's not fair to make people feel guilty.

If some people choose to spend huge amounts of time and money on feeding their dog, good luck to them- providing it's balanced, why would I care?

I do care about rubbishing other peoples food choices though. It's perfectly reasonable to feed Bakers or Wagg. 
It's not reasonable to make people feel like bad dog owners for doing so.


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> I don't know where you get the idea I feed expensive food- I don't even know what foods are "naturally preserved" or even what it means.
> 
> I usually feed Supadog sensitive (my old dog has a bit of diarrhoea with some foods) but currently feed Happy Dog because it was on promotion at SKC and I got 4 bags for the price of 3.
> 
> ...


When have I asked you to proove that dogs can digest cereal? :S I have never said such a thing. I said meat is more digestible than cereal.

Im not belittling people or saying everyone should feed expensive food. You are making this up as you go along!

Bakers is not a cheap food. Bakers is rubbish food and you pay a premium for fancy tv ads etc. Skinners field and trial is far better for the same price. You dont have to spend a fortune to buy decent food.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> I don't know where you get the idea I feed expensive food- I don't even know what foods are "naturally preserved" or even what it means.
> 
> I usually feed Supadog sensitive (my old dog has a bit of diarrhoea with some foods) but currently feed Happy Dog because it was on promotion at SKC and I got 4 bags for the price of 3.
> 
> ...


It was me that asked you to do that.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

When it comes to it, all food is digestible when it's processed enough.



Old Shep said:


> My problem is dog food snobbery and the belittling of people who (for whatever reason) choose to feed inexpensive complete dog food. It's not fair to make people feel guilty.


Is it fair to pretend all food is equal? Is it fair to pretend that dogs are really herbivores rather than carnivores? Inexpensive <> poor quality and even if it was, people here don't judge by what you feed but why you feed it. Is it wrong to try and get people to take an interest in the food they give their pets and try to get the best they can within a price bracket rather than simply falling for marketing and pretty boxes? Personally I think it wrong to turn a blind eye to the fact a lot of people haven't really thought about what they feed.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> I never said they should have a diet of solely carbohydrates.


I didn't say you did! What I did say is that a high cereal/carb diet is inappropriate for dogs.



Old Shep said:


> My problem is dog food snobbery and the belittling of people who (for whatever reason) choose to feed inexpensive complete dog food. It's not fair to make people feel guilty.
> 
> If some people choose to spend huge amounts of time and money on feeding their dog, good luck to them- providing it's balanced, why would I care?
> 
> ...


I can assure you that there is no dog food "snobbery" coming from me or do I ever belittle anyone not feeding what I consider a decent food. I will though continue to slate Bakers, Wagg etc as very poor quality feeds ( I use the word feeds grudgingly).

I will also continue to point out to anyone feeding the above that there are far better choices for not much more money & that clever marketing, pretty packaging & coloured chunky bits do not a dog food make... it's the ingredients that count!

Cereals, in any form, should not be the major component of dog food.


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

It really narks me that I can't ask questions relating to food anywhere without it descending into a massive argument that has nothing to do with the original question. 
Some haven't bothered to address what I actually posted about. Instead my decisions are rubbish, I'm not having enough interest in what I feed my animals and I am making cost-cutting decisions. 

I've lost count of the hours I've spent comparing ingredients to safe food lists and confirmed low purine foods with quality indicators like the dry food index. 
And I couldn't give a rats arse about the cost. And if I was, making the correct food choice could avoid far more costly veterinary treatments!


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> When have I asked you to proove that dogs can digest cereal? :S I have never said such a thing. I said meat is more digestible than cereal.
> 
> Im not belittling people or saying everyone should feed expensive food. You are making this up as you go along!
> 
> Bakers is not a cheap food. Bakers is rubbish food and you pay a premium for fancy tv ads etc. Skinners field and trial is far better for the same price. You dont have to spend a fortune to buy decent food.


Skinners. The sensitive formula chicken and rice is a low purine option. But that's also 'red' in the dry food index. Why is that better than chappie?


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

spots said:


> It really narks me that I can't ask questions relating to food anywhere without it descending into a massive argument that has nothing to do with the original question.
> Some haven't bothered to address what I actually posted about. Instead my decisions are rubbish, I'm not having enough interest in what I feed my animals and I am making cost-cutting decisions.


 That's forums everywhere, on any subject I'm afraid... something you have to get used too!

To reiterate what I said above... no I don't follow guidelines. I use them as a starting point & adjust up or down as needed. Only you know how well your dog is doing on the amount you feed.



spots said:


> I've lost count of the hours I've spent comparing ingredients to safe food lists and confirmed low purine foods with quality indicators like the dry food index.
> And I couldn't give a rats arse about the cost. And if I was, making the correct food choice could avoid far more costly veterinary treatments!


So make your choice based on that, it's good to see someone researching the subject.


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

BlackadderUK said:


> So make your choice based on that, it's good to see someone researching the subject.


I did make my decision based on that ... and then I made the mistake of mentioning it 
Now I'm feeling uncomfortable with my choice. Again. :mad2:


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

spots said:


> I did make my decision based on that ... and then I made the mistake of mentioning it
> Now I'm feeling uncomfortable with my choice. Again. :mad2:


Literally laughing here , not in a bad way... I feel your pain 

You say the vet is impressed with how she looks, her weight for age etc & you're happy & the food she is on obviously suits so why not look at moving her to the adult Wainwrights?


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

BlackadderUK said:


> Literally laughing here , not in a bad way... I feel your pain
> 
> You say the vet is impressed with how she looks, her weight for age etc & you're happy & the food she is on obviously suits so why not look at moving her to the adult Wainwrights?


I can't actually find anywhere that says it's low purine, just low protein which doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. Then ingredients list includes high purine components, which are present in some overall low purine feeds, but I don't know that wainwrights is... :arf:

She's on the pup food because low purine puppy food is a bigger headache than adult food so I opted for picking a good quality pup food with an appropriate meat source (turkey rather than game/beef) and keeping her on it for a shorter time.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

spots said:


> I can't actually find anywhere that says it's low purine, just low protein which doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. Then ingredients list includes high purine components, which are present in some overall low purine feeds, but I don't know that wainwrights is... :arf:
> 
> She's on the pup food because low purine puppy food is a bigger headache than adult food so I opted for picking a good quality pup food with an appropriate meat source (turkey rather than game/beef) and keeping her on it for a shorter time.


Have you seen this? - Low Purine & Phosphorus formula - Nutriment


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

SixStar said:


> Have you seen this? - Low Purine & Phosphorus formula - Nutriment


I have...the fact it's a wet food puts me off. They seem to set off the old stinky arse issue plus it's not as good for her teeth. 
I'm perturbed by the fact that the first ingredient listed (they're usually listed in highest percentage first, right?) is tripe. Offal is a no-go for dals :confused1:


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

spots said:


> Skinners. The sensitive formula chicken and rice is a low purine option. But that's also 'red' in the dry food index. Why is that better than chappie?


It contains maize as the 1st ingredient....it is sixstar's opinion that it should be avoided. For this reason she give it a red, personally i would give it an amber. It is better than chappie as it doesnt contain artifical preservatives and it has named meats (chicken meal instead of `meat and animal derivatives) and named grains. It is a fixed formula so it won't be changed by the manurfacturer when prices of certain ingredients are lower.

I think some maize is ok, i dont think dogs digest it aswell as rice though. Skinners field and trial duck, salmon or turkey are generally recommended on here. They are also cheaper than the chicken Skinners as they are vat free.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

spots said:


> I have...the fact it's a wet food puts me off. They seem to set off the old stinky arse issue plus it's not as good for her teeth.
> I'm perturbed by the fact that the first ingredient listed (they're usually listed in highest percentage first, right?) is tripe. Offal is a no-go for dals :confused1:


It's actually a raw food so would actually probably be beneficial in the ''stinky arse'' department!

Largest ingredient is always listed first. Tripe isn't generally considered as offal as far as raw feeding goes. Offal would be secreting organs such as liver, kidney, pancreas, spleen etc.


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> It contains maize as the 1st ingredient....it is sixstar's opinion that it should be avoided. For this reason she give it a red, personally i would give it an amber. It is better than chappie as it doesnt contain artifical preservatives and it has named meats (chicken meal instead of `meat and animal derivatives) and named grains. It is a fixed formula so it won't be changed by the manurfacturer when prices of certain ingredients are lower.
> 
> I think some maize is ok, i dont think dogs digest it aswell as rice though. Skinners field and trial duck, salmon or turkey are generally recommended on here. They are also cheaper than the chicken Skinners as they are vat free.


Thank you  That makes sense. 
The chicken skinners is one of the lowest purine dry foods available but I hadn't even heard of it prior to trying to figure all this out. 
I think we'll give this a go instead.


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

SixStar said:


> It's actually a raw food so would actually probably be beneficial in the ''stinky arse'' department!
> 
> Largest ingredient is always listed first. Tripe isn't generally considered as offal as far as raw feeding goes. Offal would be secreting organs such as liver, kidney, pancreas, spleen etc.


I haven't ever raw fed. Tripe is high in purines whether it's called offal or not though. :


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

spots said:


> Thank you  That makes sense.
> The chicken skinners is one of the lowest purine dry foods available but I hadn't even heard of it prior to trying to figure all this out.
> I think we'll give this a go instead.


No problem. How can you tell a food is low purine? is it the ash content? if it is i would recommend the Skinners duck and rice as it is 5% ash. Has rice as 1st ingredient which id say is better than maize. Its about £22 on amazon for 15kg


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

GoldenRetrieverman said:


> No problem. How can you tell a food is low purine? is it the ash content? if it is i would recommend the Skinners duck and rice as it is 5% ash. Has rice as 1st ingredient which id say is better than maize. Its about £22 on amazon for 15kg


Overall low purine ... It's something the manufacturers can confirm as it's complicated. I've been looking for confirmation online from a sensible source and emailing manufacturers though I haven't had many replies!

The duck and rice won't be because duck is a high purine meat source (game/beef/offal etc). The chicken is the best, turkey is good and fish ones tend to be middle of the road but she's funny with fish anyway. 
Basically, poor mite is stuck with the bland ones! She gets lamb and chicken naturo every now and then as even I think it smells yummier


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

spots said:


> I can't actually find anywhere that says it's low purine, just low protein which doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. Then ingredients list includes high purine components, which are present in some overall low purine feeds, but I don't know that wainwrights is... :arf:


To be honest I'm looking at this site Dalmatian Welfare Â» Feeding & I'm not sure what you can feed her!

I'm quite interested in the 1st listed under "green".... Foodstuffs. What's that?

The best I can find, avoiding most of that extensive list, is millieswolfheart salmon mix https://www.millieswolfheart.co.uk/SALMON-MIX


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

spots said:


> Overall low purine ... It's something the manufacturers can confirm as it's complicated. I've been looking for confirmation online from a sensible source and emailing manufacturers though I haven't had many replies!
> 
> The duck and rice won't be because duck is a high purine meat source (game/beef/offal etc). The chicken is the best, turkey is good and fish ones tend to be middle of the road but she's funny with fish anyway.
> Basically, poor mite is stuck with the bland ones! She gets lamb and chicken naturo every now and then as even I think it smells yummier


Burns are always helpful if you email them. You can use their diets instead of some presciption diets.

Ness Bird at Arden Grange will offer you advice also, she would recommend foods other than Arden Grange if she thought it would help, not many people would do that. Id ask Ness first.


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

BlackadderUK said:


> To be honest I'm looking at this site Dalmatian Welfare Â» Feeding & I'm not sure what you can feed her!
> 
> I'm quite interested in the 1st listed under "green".... Foodstuffs. What's that?
> 
> The best I can find, avoiding most of that extensive list, is millieswolfheart salmon mix https://www.millieswolfheart.co.uk/SALMON-MIX


"food stuffs" is just a heading. There's a "vegatables" heading further down. Just poor formatting.

Yep it's a nightmare!
Add in the complication that it isn't exactly a comprehensive list and salmon is listed as 'high' in other places. 
Her stomach really doesn't seem to like fish. We've had incidents after fish based treats, fishy wet food mixed in with her dry and random stolen tuna ... Counter-surfing little [email protected]&!


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

And why are there peas in all foods?! Dogs particularly like peas or something :arf:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

spots said:


> And why are there peas in all foods?! Dogs particularly like peas or something :arf:


Spencer will work for frozen peas lol.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

spots said:


> Yep it's a nightmare!
> Add in the complication that it isn't exactly a comprehensive list and salmon is listed as 'high' in other places.
> Her stomach really doesn't seem to like fish. We've had incidents after fish based treats, fishy wet food mixed in with her dry and random stolen tuna ... Counter-surfing little [email protected]&!


What incidents?


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

BlackadderUK said:


> What incidents?


As in a bad tummy. She feels sorry for herself and has very loose poos and a smelly bottom.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

This might be worth a look, named ingredients & no peas  
Adult Turkey & Rice - Dog - Dry Food - Dog Food

Dried Turkey (min. 26%)
White Rice (min. 26%)
Brown Rice
Oats
Sunflower Oil
Beet Pulp
Turkey Digest
Minerals
Dried Egg
Seaweed


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