# Still getting a Doberman puppy with its tail docked?



## DobermanLover (Aug 6, 2012)

Before I go any further, we all have our own opinions on tail docking I am not wanting replies bashing me saying its wrong and that I'm a sick person, etc etc - thank you.

I was wondering I'm after a puppy (male) and want the puppy to have its tail docked, I'm not interested in showing the puppy or anything is there still breeders selling them that have the tails docked?

My other female is tail docked but I got her from Ireland (she is coming up 4) will I have to do the same again or is there any in the UK selling docked Dobermans?

Anyone able to point me in the right direction? 

Thanks.


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

As far as i'm aware it's illegal to dock puppies tails in UK now. My French Bulldog naturally has a stumpy tail and the amount of people who have had a go at me for having a dog with a 'docked' tail is silly... I just have to explain that it's just the way bulldogs are 

I think you'll find it hard find a Dobe with a docked tail. I'm sure there will be people still doing it, but I don't think it's legal anymore.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

It is illegal in England and Wales to dock any breeds other than those which belong to the HPR group of gundogs, spaniels and some terriers.

In Scotland there is a total ban.

In Northern Ireland it is still under consultation I believe?


The exemption for working dogs allows a dog that is likely to perform certain specified types of work to have its tail docked by a veterinary surgeon. The dog will have to be less than 5 days old and the veterinary surgeon will have to certify that he or she has seen specified evidence that the dog is likely to work in specified areas. Puppies being docked must be microchipped, either at the time of docking or when the vet considers they are old enough. The types of dog that are allowed to be docked and the types of evidence needed, is detailed below. 

Puppies from certain working dogs may be docked if evidence is provided to the vet that it is likely to be worked in connection with law enforcement, activities of Her Majesty&#8217;s Armed Forces, emergency rescue, lawful pest control, or the lawful shooting of animals. It is accepted that in a litter, not all puppies docked will be found suitable for work.

The owner of the dog, or person representing the owner must make a signed statement that, the dam of the puppies to be docked is of a type which can be certified as set out below, the date on which the puppies were born and that it is intended that they will be used, or sold, for one of the working purposes set out in the regulations.

The vet must sign a declaration that the requirements of the regulations have been satisfied i.e. that he has been given the necessary declaration by the owner or person representing the owner and has seen the evidence required.

The vet must have a completed statement, signed and dated by the owner of the dog (or by another person whom the veterinary surgeon to whom it is presented reasonably believes to be representing the owner), made in the form set out in the regulations. The vet must see the dam of the dog and a further piece of evidence such as:

a current shotgun or firearm certificate issued to the owner of the dog, or to the agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog for work in connection with the lawful shooting of animals OR 

a letter from a gamekeeper, a land occupier (or his agent), a person with shooting rights, a shoot organiser, a club official, a person representing the National Working Terrier Federation, or a person engaged in lawful pest control, stating that the breeder of the dog whose tail is to be docked is known to him and that dogs bred by that breeder have been used (as the case may be) on his land, or in his shoot, or for pest control.

Although the procedure is the same, the list of dogs which can be docked are different between England and Wales. There is a total ban on docking in Scotland.

In England the following can be docked: 

1. Hunt point retrieve breeds of any type or combination of types.

2. Spaniels of any type or combination of types.

3. Terriers of any type or combination of types.

In Wales the following can be docked: 

1. Spaniels of the following breeds: English Springer Spaniel, Welsh Springer Spaniel and Cocker Spaniel, but not combinations of breeds

2. Terriers of the following breeds: Jack Russell Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Lakeland Terrier, Norfolk Terrier, but not combinations of breeds

3. Hunt point retrievers of the following breeds:

Braque Italian, Brittany, German Long Haired Pointer, German Short Haired Pointer, German Wire Haired Pointer, Hungarian Vizsla, Hungarian Wire Haired Vizsla, Italian Spinone, Spanish Water Dog, Weimaraner, Korthals Griffon, Slovakian Rough Haired Pointer, Large Munsterlander, Small Munsterlander.

It remains the prerogative of a veterinary surgeon as to whether he chooses to dock a dog&#8217;s tail or not.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> or is there any in the UK selling docked Dobermans?


No, it is illegal - you will have to go abroad.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

DobermanLover said:


> Before I go any further, we all have our own opinions on tail docking I am not wanting replies bashing me saying its wrong and that I'm a sick person, etc etc - thank you.
> 
> I was wondering I'm after a puppy (male) and want the puppy to have its tail docked, I'm not interested in showing the puppy or anything is there still breeders selling them that have the tails docked?
> 
> ...


Just out of curiosity WHY do you want it docked?


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## DobermannZoe (Mar 3, 2012)

To be honest, now the bans firmly in, you will see all these breeds with tails, and it will become the norm. I wouldnt be so choosy and just get one with a tail. it doesnt make them look 'soft/silly' or anything if thats wot your thinking. I still get mums snatching their kids and people crossing roads, people still know its a dobermann and they carry their tails high or curl over so it looks nice and neat...
your gonna have to get used to it in the UK im afraid...
Just think how many litters that will of been bred now and in 5 years time when their all mature you will be lucky to see one docked.

Edit: You will also most likely be stopped and asked for proof aswell, do you really want the hassle?


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Why mutilate the poor dog unless you have a valid reason for doing so , and by that I dont mean just for the way it looks 

And im not having a go , im genuinely curious


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## bluegirl (May 7, 2012)

I still prefer docked tails especially in my chosen breed of cocker spaniels but I have accepted the ban and moved with the times. At the end of the day a well bred dog from DNA tested stock with a good temperament is more important to me than not having a tail. 

As there are so many restrictions on docked dogs since the implementation of the ban I wonder if the breeders that may still breed and dock are also as keen on these health checks? Its something to consider perhaps?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

bluegirl said:


> As there are so many restrictions on docked dogs since the implementation of the ban I wonder if the breeders that may still breed and dock are also as keen on these health checks? Its something to consider perhaps?


I am sorry I am not sure I understand your post?

Why would docking affect breeders outlook on health testing breeding stock?

What is the connection?


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Actually, you can get docked Dobermann's for sale in England and Wales, i've seen them advertised many times. The difference is the dogs are legally docked in Ireland before being brought to England.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

You can get ear cropped dogs in the UK too, however those dogs have been imported from outside the UK.


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## bluegirl (May 7, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> I am sorry I am not sure I understand your post?
> 
> Why would docking affect breeders outlook on health testing breeding stock?
> 
> What is the connection?


I don't know the world of working dogs well but I do know that with cockers they are less likely to be health checked (DNA and otherwise) than their show cocker counterparts. The workers are docked, the show cockers are not. So with what I know if I were to choose another pup, and I went for a worker that could still be legally docked then I would be more interested in a breeder who undertook the relevant health checks than one who thought less of health checks and dogs were docked.

Again the only dobermans I'm likely to come across are in a show ring and they aren't docked and I assume the relevant health checks have been carried out. These days its the only way I would consider buying a dog. If a doberman had the relevant health checks done and was from good lines and was docked and I didn't intend to show, that would be great, but I just wonder who is still out there doing that within the UK.
Does that make more sense?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

bluegirl said:


> . If a doberman had the relevant health checks done and was from good lines and was docked and I didn't intend to show, that would be great, but I just wonder who is still out there doing that within the UK.


The argument is irrelevant as Dobermanns are not allowed to be docked.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I am sorry I am not sure I understand your post?
> 
> Why would docking affect breeders outlook on health testing breeding stock?
> 
> What is the connection?


I can see what the poster is saying. If a breeder is prepared to act illegally, what other things are they prepared to do in order to supply a market. Many of those health testing will be show breeders who cannot show docked dogs so the probability is more that those that dock illegally will probably not bother with health tests.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

From what I've seen of docked Dobes imported after the docking ban a docked tail often comes at the expense of temperament, character, health and comformation


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## briarlow (Dec 31, 2008)

hawksport said:


> From what I've seen of docked Dobes imported after the docking ban a docked tail often comes at the expense of temperament, character, health and comformation


and more than likely they are from puppy farm stock where the poor mother has had loads of litters and is still not much older than a pup herself!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I think it may depend upon where they are imported from............


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I said the same thing before getting my youngest, as I really could not imagine having a non docked tail , BUT for some reason i DID and I love her tail.
Wouldn't personally want one without a tail now , and maybe its just me but the sooner ireland come in line with us the better!

that said our friends have just got a legally docked (so I am told ESS from the UK ) that they ordered prior to its birth on production of their firearms licence (would be interested to learn if this is corret????)


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Amazingly enough some dogs come into the Uk from countries other than Ireland............. 

And docking is not illegal in Wales or England, only in Scotland.

Certain gundogs and terriers (and their crosses in England) may still be legally docked providing certain criteria are met.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Animal Welfare Act - Tail Docking in the UK as at 6 April 2007


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> You can get ear cropped dogs in the UK too, however those dogs have been imported from outside the UK.


More naieve than I would expect from you. Are you sure every dog with cropped ears or a docked tail has been done so legally in England?



bluegirl said:


> I don't know the world of working dogs well but I do know that with cockers they are less likely to be health checked (DNA and otherwise) than their show cocker counterparts. The workers are docked, the show cockers are not. So with what I know if I were to choose another pup, and I went for a worker that could still be legally docked then I would be more interested in a breeder who undertook the relevant health checks than one who thought less of health checks and dogs were docked.
> 
> Again the only dobermans I'm likely to come across are in a show ring and they aren't docked and I assume the relevant health checks have been carried out. These days its the only way I would consider buying a dog. If a doberman had the relevant health checks done and was from good lines and was docked and I didn't intend to show, that would be great, but I just wonder who is still out there doing that within the UK.
> Does that make more sense?


Cockers are a sore point with the OH, he doesn't know any working lines with a couple of the genetic conditions, so when you say fully health tested, is that for problems within your lines or within the breed. Because from what I've observed, they are possibly the most split breed and the show/working varieties could almost be two separate breeds.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

hawksport said:


> From what I've seen of docked Dobes imported after the docking ban a docked tail often comes at the expense of temperament, character, health and comformation


Here here!

So many people focus on the tail (or lack, there of) and not anything else.

Op, are you aware of DCM? vWD? Hip/elbow Dysplasia? PHPV? Hypothyroidism? Wobblers?

All of these are the points I would be looking into, not how you can get around UK laws.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> More naieve than I would expect from you. Are you sure every dog with cropped ears or a docked tail has been done so legally in England?
> 
> *Did i SAY that I was SURE that EVERY dog with cropped ears or a docked tail had been done so legally in England?*
> 
> ...


But this sort of jump to to an unfounded conclusion IS what I would expect from you.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> You can get ear cropped dogs in the UK too, however those dogs have been imported from outside the UK.





smokeybear said:


> But this sort of jump to to an unfounded conclusion IS what I would expect from you.


I was simply pointing out there are those within England that are willing to carry out illegal docking and tail shortening procedures, your first post seems to be blissfully unaware of this.

Rant away though.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I was simply pointing out there are those within England that are willing to carry out illegal docking and tail shortening procedures, your first post seems to be blissfully unaware of this.
> 
> Rant away though.


It may SEEM so to you, but I, like everyone else, cannot control what you and other people INFER from posts? 

But continue to post pointless and inaccurate assumptions though, simply..........


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> You can get ear cropped dogs in the UK too, however those dogs have been imported from outside the UK.





smokeybear said:


> It may SEEM so to you, but I, like everyone else, cannot control what you and other people INFER from posts?
> 
> But continue to post pointless and inaccurate assumptions though, simply..........


I'll refer you to your post then. You seem to assume any dogs that have been aesthetically altered have been imported from outside the UK, your words, not mine. Have I made an assumption?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> It may SEEM so to you, but I, like everyone else, cannot control what you and other people INFER from posts?
> 
> But continue to post pointless and inaccurate assumptions though, simply..........


 Not pointless! FACT


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DobermanLover said:


> Before I go any further, we all have our own opinions on tail docking I am not wanting replies bashing me saying its wrong and that I'm a sick person, etc etc - thank you.
> 
> I was wondering I'm after a puppy (male) and want the puppy to have its tail docked, I'm not interested in showing the puppy or anything is there still breeders selling them that have the tails docked?
> 
> ...


I regularly see two dobermanns with their ears and tails intact and I have to say they look bloody gorgeous. Why would anyone want to change that? The same goes for all the rotties I am now meeting with their tails on. Wonderful!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Of course Northern Ireland has now changed

Following a consultation in 2012 on tail docking with effect from 1st January 2013, under the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011, it will be illegal to dock the tail of any dog in Northern Ireland or to take a dog elsewhere to be docked.

Northern Ireland


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DT said:


> Not pointless! FACT


Shhh DT, some people don't like admitting they're not perfect


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> It may SEEM so to you, but I, like everyone else, cannot control what you and other people INFER from posts?
> 
> But continue to post pointless and inaccurate assumptions though, simply..........


you seem to think you are superior to everyone else!
Cant think why! 
Only ever heard of one person being asked to leave a paying forum before¬!
wonder why?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DT said:


> Not pointless! FACT


What is fact luv?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> What is fact luv?


that there are folk in the UK that continue to dock dogs illegally sunshine


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DT said:


> you seem to think you are superior to everyone else!
> Cant think why!
> Only ever heard of one person being asked to leave a paying forum before¬!
> wonder why?


Glad you spotted your error and replaced the word inferior with superior.

Well done. 

Have you only heard of one person, but yes I imagine you would have only heard of that, but *I *have never PAID to be on a forum in my.life, why on earth WOULD I?

Most ridiculous thing I ever heard, to PAY someone so that they could make money out of a forum!

But there are lots of idiots out there.................


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I regularly see two dobermanns with their ears and tails intact and I have to say they look bloody gorgeous. Why would anyone want to change that? The same goes for all the rotties I am now meeting with their tails on. Wonderful!


Manchester terriers ears used to be cropped...I have never met another dog like my Manchester that uses his ears to tell me how he feels..afraid, alert, relaxed etc.


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## simonehadland2009 (Oct 27, 2012)

DT said:


> that there are folk in the UK that continue to dock dogs illegally sunshine


now now children be nice lol,

as far as i am concerned a dog was born with a tail, it should have a tail for life


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DT said:


> that there are folk in the UK that continue to dock dogs illegally sunshine


I know that luv, so do 99.99% of the population. No news there mate.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

simonehadland2009 said:


> now now children be nice lol,
> 
> as far as i am concerned a dog was born with a tail, it should have a tail for life


I agree, I have had 4 Weimaraners, 3 of them with tails and very lovely ones too!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Glad you spotted your error and replaced the word inferior with superior.
> 
> Well done.
> 
> ...


Yes Alison! there Are¬!
and I had a lot of respect for you ONCE¬
but thats long gone!
Old hat! has been!
get the gist¬¬ sunshine


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I know that luv, so do 99.99% of the population. No news there mate.


So why post otherwise? Which is when I expressed my surprise at your naievity, and you then took the liberty. Surely post your thoughts in the first place?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DT said:


> Yes Alison! there Are¬!
> and I had a lot of respect for you ONCE¬
> but thats long gone!
> Old hat! has been!
> get the gist¬¬ sunshine


Well I will try not to lose any sleep over it luv, get the gist duck? 

And I would rather be a "has been" then a "never was or likely to be"


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So why post otherwise? Which is when I expressed my surprise at your naievity, and you then took the liberty. Surely post your thoughts in the first place?


I did not post otherwise, you merely inferred something that was not there, that is of course your prerogative, as it is for all forum users.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So why post otherwise? Which is when I expressed my surprise at your naievity, and you then took the liberty. Surely post your thoughts in the first place?


some folks are full of it!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Well I will try not to lose any sleep over it luv, get the gist duck?
> 
> And I would rather be a "has been" then a "never was or likely to be"


 you're such a sweetie


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DT said:


> some folks are full of it!


And some are empty vessels.......


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## Beth17 (Jun 5, 2012)

I can only speak for boxers and whilst I do like the look of the docked ones having grown up with them I also love my two and their tails, I only ever get positive comments when out and about with them from people saying how nice it is to see them with tails


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> And some are empty vessels.......


Well us empty vessels can sure make a lotta noise:thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I did not post otherwise, you merely inferred something that was not there, that is of course your prerogative, as it is for all forum users.


So now you're denying all knowledge of posting that dogs that are illegally docked are from outside the UK? 

Can I suggest you read your own posts for future reference, ok, mabe you've had a glass of wine, I have, but at least I can still comprehend what's being posted.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

simonehadland2009 said:


> now now children be nice lol,
> 
> as far as i am concerned a dog was born with a tail, it should have a tail for life


couldn't agree more


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

Well Im not getting into a docking-non docking argument.All I know is I love seeing a dog with a happy waggy tail, if they werent meant to have one why were they born with one in the first place.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)




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