# Early Neutering



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Can I please ask those breeders here who neuter/spay kittens before they leave for new homes how (or if) they incorporate this into the cost of the kitten to the new owner? Do you find that your new owners are happy to pay the extra initially, knowing its something they won't have to think or worry about later? Do you 'bear' some of the cost yourself for the sake of peace of mind?

My own vet will not early neuter and despite the few links I've been provided with showing which vets in various locations do EN, those in my area (within the links) actually don't - I know, I've asked. I have just located one practice who do EN - unfortunately it's close to a 3 hour round trip and possibly considerably more given that it involves travelling on a part of the M25 which is renown for delays.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Can I please ask those breeders... who S/N kittens before they leave for new homes how (or if) they incorporate
> this into the cost of the kitten to the new owner? Do you find that your new owners are happy to pay the extra
> initially, knowing... they won't have to... worry about [desex] later?
> 
> Do you 'bear' some of the cost yourself for the sake of peace of mind?


I'm not a breeder, but an increasing number of USA-breeders are desexing before sale - most add a nominal
amount to the kitten's price, & aside from buyers who want to breed the kitten they purchase [who shouldn't be
buying a crossbreed, nor a DSH or DMH or DLH random-bred], the buyers are happy to have it all done.

Many vets & humane societies offer discount pricing on whole-litter S/N; there are also freebies,
but typically free desex is for low-income owners or former-fighting breeds or feral cats or abandoned cats,
not for [presumably] purebred kittens who are being sold to private buyers.

I'd check for a whole-litter discount. :yesnod:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have just located one practice who do EN - unfortunately it's close to a 3 hour round trip and possibly considerably more given that it involves travelling on a part of the M25 which is renown for delays.


That's the sort of journey I'd be stuck with and I consider it too much, especially post op. I'm also uneasy at using a vet I'm neither familiar with nor known at for such a procedure.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I get a cheap deal from the vet who does the neutering, which includes vaccinating & chipping, and I add most of the cost to the cheaper end of my breed in the area. For me I'd rather fund a bit of the cost myself as I'm buying peace of mind, plus a good screener for would-be kitten buyers.

With the first litter 2 of the buyers didn't mention it, one had looked it up on the Internet and concluded it was OK, and the last simly said 'ooh one less thing to worry about'.

I reckon every enquiry I get which goes cold after I mention the kittens will be neutered before leaving me is one less BYB getting one of my kittens.

I'm lucky, the vet is 10 minutes away. The first litter were 5 boys, I left having dropped them off at 9:30 and was back collecting them at 11:30. She wants to get them back home with mum ASAP. She has been doing EN for years for a local cat rescue and I would only let someone who does it on a regular basis near my kittens.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Does "early neutering" as a phrase specifically mean s/c before homing age, or does it just generally mean before the more common 6 month recommendation?

I'd never considered it as an option for breeders, but I'm definitely a fan of rescue litters being neutered pre-homing.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> That's the sort of journey I'd be stuck with and I consider it too much, especially post op. I'm also uneasy at using a vet I'm neither familiar with nor known at for such a procedure.


I too think it might be a bit much. I'm trying to weigh the possibility of doing that against the risk of not doing it. Must confess I'm considering it more for the fact that EN keeps being drummed into my subconscious, rather than the worry that my kittens' owners might not be who or what I thought. I suppose I'm beginning to doubt my 'radar'.

I'm also uneasy about being unfamiliar with the vet. Having used a different vet (purely down to the logistics of having one vehicle, partners' new shift pattern and not being able to travel in opposite directions x4 in day and get everyone to where they needed to be on time) recently for what should have been a straightforward (far from it, as it turned out) spay and tooth removal... suffice to say the thought of a vet I've no experience of, operating on 10-12 week old kittens, doesn't exactly fill me with joy.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I know a few EN vets in kent and my friend who is in kent has started to EN at her local vets, I can ask the names of them if you like??

although I pay more than this my prices went up by £25 when I started EN, I looked at it has I pay half the new pwners pay the other half, but Everything has gone up now  my current litter Im out of pocket, and I wrote everything down  Although injections were double as I didn't go to my normal vet and Im not chipping them all at my cost, anyway!! I know some breeders just put their price up and include it or they give a kitten price and say how much neutering is on top!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> I get a cheap deal from the vet who does the neutering, which includes vaccinating & chipping, and I add most of the cost to the cheaper end of my breed in the area. For me I'd rather fund a bit of the cost myself as I'm buying peace of mind, plus a good screener for would-be kitten buyers.
> 
> With the first litter 2 of the buyers didn't mention it, one had looked it up on the Internet and concluded it was OK, and the last simly said 'ooh one less thing to worry about'.
> 
> ...


I don't mind absorbing some or even all of the cost. If I could persuade my own vet I'd be more confident... though I'm still feeling a bit namby-pamby about it  I probably worry too much but I have nagging concerns about such young kittens being held in close proximity to sickly feline patients and the concern of so much crammed into a short space of time - vaccinations, operation/anaesthesia, travelling to and fro, going off to a new home - all quite a burden for a very young kitten.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I know a few EN vets in kent and my friend who is in kent has started to EN at her local vets, I can ask the names of them if you like??


If you wouldn't mind, please. I have already found two in Kent - the problem is we are right down in the south-east corner, virtually on the coast, and those I found were north Kent/Medway towns which are quite a trek even without ghastly traffic on the M25 or M2.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I probably worry too much but I have nagging concerns about such young kittens being held in close proximity to sickly feline patients and the concern of so much crammed into a short space of time - vaccinations, operation/anaesthesia, travelling to and fro, going off to a new home - all quite a burden for a very young kitten.


I have to say too much being crammed into a short time isn't one of my worries. Having known breeders who have done EN for many years I am very happy with the remarkably short recovery time in 13/14 week old kittens still in their birth home and with litter mates. The issue of kittens being in a vets with the risk of disease does concern me.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I have a 3 hour round trip for my chosen clinic, never been an issue, my kittens are robust and a car trip doesn't bother them, they recover near instantly from the surgery.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Is Upminster too far for you? I used a vet there for 3 litters, not sure how far it would be from you??


Ivy Lodge Veterinary Clinic
Nags Head Lane,
UPMINSTER,
RM14 1TS
Tel: 01708 373671
Fax: 01708 381530

also I noticed on that site if you put in different postcodes different vets come up?! 


Stanhope Veterinary Centre
29 Stanhope Road,
ROCHESTER,
Kent,
ME2 3EJ
Tel: 01634 713065
Fax: 01634 720002

any good? I emailed my friend just waiting for her to reply!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks for both of those, Taylorbaby, but both are too far. I know the vet in Upminster (used to live there) and they're excllent - however, with no traffic it's a 3 hour round trip and if the Dartford River Crossing is bad, as it inevitably is as you probably well know given your location, it can add hours. Rochester is a bit better, but still way too far.


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

Our vet will EN from 14 weeks but only feral kittens


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

spotty cats said:


> I have a 3 hour round trip for my chosen clinic, never been an issue, my kittens are robust and a car trip doesn't bother them, they recover near instantly from the surgery.


I don't think my kittens would mind the trip, it's me who does! Currently, the closest (unknown to me) vet is, as I mentioned, a 3 hour round trip - bear in mind that's a 6 hour trip there and home again twice.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I don't go home, they do the surgery and then I get the kittens back an hour or so later. Even if it took longer I'd sit in the car and read a book rather than do the trip twice.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I don't think my kittens would mind the trip, it's me who does! Currently, the closest (unknown to me) vet is, as I mentioned, a 3 hour round trip - bear in mind that's a 6 hour trip there and home again twice.


If that vet is as fast as mine is I'd go, wait & come back - by the time you got back home the first time you would promptly set off to collect them.

What would bother me is a vet starting to EN just for me. It's a specific skill, especially the anaesthesia bit, I want someone who does it regularly not 'just for me'.

Edit - just seen that is what SC does, go wait & bring them home.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have a 3 hour round trip for my chosen clinic, never been an issue, my kittens are robust and a car trip doesn't bother them, they recover near instantly from the surgery.


Is this trip on decent roads? There was a time when it wouldn't have bothered me so much but I wouldn't subject kittens post op to the pothole ridden journey that is the state of our roads nowadays. It probably sounds ridiculous to you but everyone here in the UK will know exactly what I mean.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> If that vet is as fast as mine is I'd go, wait & come back - by the time you got back home the first time you would promptly set off to collect them.
> 
> What would bother me is a vet starting to EN just for me. It's a specific skill, especially the anaesthesia bit, I want someone who does it regularly not 'just for me'.
> 
> Edit - just seen that is what SC does, go wait & bring them home.


If I sound like putting obstacles in the way, I'm really not  There is no way it would be possible to wait, were it my own vet. He is only vet at the practice, pets undergoing surgery are dropped off at around 8.30am and operations aren't started until the close of the morning clinic, early lunchtime. That's academic anyway as my vet is only 20 mins away but doesn't EN.

Waiting, i.e. not returning home, might be possible elsewhere but, as pointed out, it would need to be a vet experienced in EN. My closest who DO early neuter are a chain which I think we're all familiar with; it's actually very inexpensive but I'm reluctant because of who the chain are.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

ok heard back from another, is Easipet near you?? Only costs £25!!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> ok heard back from another, is Easipet near you?? Only costs £25!!


That's Easipetcare. I wouldn't use them having had a not very good (and that's an understatement) experience with them previously.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> That's Easipetcare. I wouldn't use them having had a not very good (and that's an understatement) experience with them previously.


OH poop lol


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> Is this trip on decent roads? There was a time when it wouldn't have bothered me so much but I wouldn't subject kittens post op to the pothole ridden journey that is the state of our roads nowadays. It probably sounds ridiculous to you but everyone here in the UK will know exactly what I mean.


My trip (3+ or 6+ hours, whichever way you look at it) would be virtually all motorway - there's no way I'd do that on most of our A and B roads.


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

If you can try and speak to the vet rather than the receptionist and ask them if they will neuter your kitten early.

I have always found Easipetcare ok for routine things such as vaccinations, neutering, etc but I wouldn't take a cat there for treatment or diagnosis as such as I too have had bad experiences in that respect.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

> There is no way it would be possible to wait, were it my own vet


You don't have to wait at the vets. Shops nearby? Walks? A park? Read?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> You don't have to wait at the vets. Shops nearby? Walks? A park? Read?


Shamefully, that's just me, I have a very low boredom threshold. Drop off at 8.30am and pick up, at the earliest say 3.30 - yes, I know, but my vet is a little OTT about recovery times and collection. I suppose I could request that the kittens are the first for operating but with how he is and a litter of five of six kittens to spay/neuter - I can see it being much later in the day when I was able to collect them.

I suppose all I can do is ask, print off all the relevant info to show him and see what he says. The last (and only) time I asked about early neutering he said "No problem, I can do that". I stood there amazed for a few seconds until he added "any time from four and a half to five months".


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Torin said:


> Does "early neutering" as a phrase specifically mean S/N [between 8 & 12-WO], or... just generally...
> before the more-common [approx] 6-MO [desex] recommendation?


That kinda depends. 

Folks who find the idea of desex horrifying will refer to anything under 12-MO or even under 2-YEARS old
as "early", while vets are more-specific. There are 3 basic age ranges for desex under 12-MO,
which are pediatric, juvenile, & pubertal. *Pubertal* is the classic 6 to 8-MO, which was bog-standard
in the USA before i was born - so it became the norm sometime in the 1940s or '50s.
*Juvenile* is in-between infancy & puberty, so approx 12 to 14-WO thru 4 to 5-MO.

*Pediatric* is actually what vets consider "early desex", & that's done between 7-WO & 12-WO -
so yes, before the kitten or pup goes from breeder, shelter, or rescue to their first home.

The advantages are many, from less bleeding & much-less scarring to a shorter time of surgery,
& faster healing. Risk of complications, including infection, is LOWER for the pediatric patient than for
older pups or kittens - everything, including the rare but possible risk of death, is lowered.

The only risk *specific* to pediatric desex [7 to 12-WO] is partly a function of breed / size,
& partly due to age: young mammals don't thermoregulate as well as their elders, so young kits & pups
must be specifically protected from *chilling* during the procedure; they have more surface area 
in ratio to their body-volume, hence lose body-heat to the environs faster, & their thermoregulation
may not be up to the task.
This is easily compensated for by using reflective blankets to send their own heat back to them, insulating
the body-frame they are lying on, or slipping a couple of heated saline-bags alongside them as props.

The older or simply larger the individual, the lower this risk is - so a Siamese or Singapura needs more help,
all else being equal, than a pediatric Maine Coon or Persian patient. But the risk itself is low, & negated
easily by monitoring core-temp, & simple preventive steps that add nothing to the cost of the surgery.
[Heated saline is not "used", & insulated pads or reflective blankets can be used over & over.]

An 8-WO kitten will be bouncing around the next day as tho nothing happened, vs a 6 or 7-MO bitch
who will be quite tender in her belly-stitches for a few days, & who should NOT be jumping for a solid week.
It's very hard to get owners of pubertal pups to *restrict activity* for 7 to 10-days to on-leash walks,
no leaping & no hopping on & off furniture; the post-desex pediatric patient has no such worries, they are
able to self-regulate their activity.

Personally, i think pediatric-desex, especially for pet-quality purebreds, heritable issues, & shelters
or rescues, is *the best thing since the invention of sliced bread.* :thumbup:

Long-term effects of desex at any age under 2-YO, right down to 7-WO, zre minimal & not serious;
the most obvious effects of pediatric desex are visible as underdeveloped penises & prepuces in
males, & undersized vulvae in females.
There is also a tendency for male pediatric-desex patients to be a bit taller than males desexed later;
the difference is small-enuf to be lost in breed variability, or even in sibling variability. For men who worry
about the visible "masculinity" of their pup, a dog who has a smaller penis or prepuce might not be appealing -
whoopee. 

It is usually men who worry about "looking male", size, etc; men overfeed their big, smooth-coated breeds
such as Rotts, Engl-Mastiffs, pit-types, etc, more often than women do IME, because they want that
impression of power - *size* & *strength* are the same thing to them. This is inaccurate; a FIT dog
of any size is stronger, pound for pound, than a FAT dog of whatever size, & has more endurance.
.
.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Pediatric is actually what vets consider "early desex", & that's done between 7-WO & 12-WO


That may be the case in the US. Here in the UK it's much more random and some of the vets who claim they will early neuter mean just prior rather than post 6 months old. As far as I'm aware 6 months (minimum) is still the milestone taught in training as age (or lack of it) doesn't seem to be making any difference. I'd have expected younger vets to be coming through far more enthusiastic and confident if change were happening with training. The ones I find most worrying are those vets who will EN kittens from shelters or TNR programmes but not privately owned. Rightly or wrongly this gives me the impression they are not confident enough in their success/survival rates to offer the service where they would have to answer to a private client.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I've given up on early neutering. None of the vets in my area will do it. One said well. .. I've done a maine coon kitten once before. Sorry but my cats aren't going to be any vets' guinea pigs. 

About passing on the cost- I had planned on passing on the entire cost of neutering to the new owners (I would be keeping the kittens a 2-3 weeks longer and would foot the bill for additional food etc). Reason is neutering here is very expensive (low side is males 85 euro, females 150 euro).


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

pipje said:


> I've given up on early neutering. None of the vets in my area will do it. One said well. .. I've done a maine coon kitten once before. Sorry but my cats aren't going to be any vets' guinea pigs.
> 
> About passing on the cost- I had planned on passing on the entire cost of neutering to the new owners (I would be keeping the kittens a 2-3 weeks longer and would foot the bill for additional food etc). Reason is neutering here is very expensive (low side is males 85 euro, females 150 euro).


Is he used to neutering older cats? The only difference is that its easier with kittens. I called a vet to ask them and by chance that day he received a video about early neutering (no, it wasn't me haha  ) he has never done it before, he asked me to come in with the kittens so he could access size and meet him.

We went in and he had been neutering 5/6 month old kittens + for 20years, he asked if I minded that mine would be his first litter, I said no, I was more than confident on meeting & grilling him :laugh: Once he see the kittens the only difference was they are a bit bigger at 6 months, he was more than confident I showed him pictures of what my other vet did with the wounds (my vet was ill at that point and not working so I couldn't use him)

So we took in a litter of 3, when we went to pick them up he said he couldn't believe how easy and quick it was compared to that of a slightly older kitten, the wounds were literally non existent and the kittens were already purring and playing and had eaten. He just kept saying he couldn't believe it and the girls were more viable (he may of said that or another word, long time ago now) he said he literally opened them snipped and that was it, no fat or muscle to get round due to the age, said it took him no time at all.

So I was obviously very pleased! He did 3 more litters for me, each better than the last, he actually had students & vets view him as he did the operation (with my permission) as he was teaching them how to do it and writing a paper on it. (total convert  )

Sadly he moved back north to open up his own practice (and is still EN!) and still teaches other vets, he said a thank you to me lol! My other vet is all better now, but I have found a couple more if I need to use another and even a mobile vets that will come to your home and neuter!! But its a lot more expensive.

Takes me 15-20mins there then back, roads are fine normal streets and a couple of main ones, but then same trip to the vets for injections anyway I took a video the other day of kittens that had just been neutered going to upload it this weekend! :crazy:


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## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

Sherylina said:


> *If you can try and speak to the vet rather than the receptionist and ask them if they will neuter your kitten early*.
> 
> I have always found Easipetcare ok for routine things such as vaccinations, neutering, etc but I wouldn't take a cat there for treatment or diagnosis as such as I too have had bad experiences in that respect.


I agree with this. When i first asked at my vets the receptionist told me they don't early neuter. When I spoke to the vet he told me they do it for breeders mainly but because I was a rescue he agreed to do my kittens too. If I hadn't asked the vet I wouldn't have known


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

cats galore said:


> I agree with this. When i first asked at my vets the receptionist told me they don't early neuter. When I spoke to the vet he told me they do it for breeders mainly but because I was a rescue he agreed to do my kittens too. If I hadn't asked the vet I wouldn't have known


Yes I always say this, the receptionists are useless, one told me 'no we don't do that boys balls don't come down till 6 months!'  I was like 'they are born with them!??' She argued (shouted) at me that I was wrong and she worked at a vets, so she must know best! I did get rather cheeky and asked if she had google she should research neutering  

the ones at the vet I use have known me for 3 + years now, a new one joined and when I called up she said 'no we don't do that here, I said 'ah you must be new, ive been coming here for over 3 years!'  They know my voice on the phone! :lol: Im the 'early neuter lady' and one is now on my list for a kitten haha :laugh:

But always speak to the vet and explain why you want to do it, that's how I found my vets!


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## Quarissamin (Jun 9, 2014)

I had my cat neutered at 11 weeks, I dont if you have a your vet near you they a lot of practices as there s very big vets. Also they do scount neutering and discount jabs. They just started doing early neutering about 10 months ago.


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## Quarissamin (Jun 9, 2014)

Your vets do en and they hwve a lot of practices also its discount neutering which is quite a bit cheaper


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

havoc said:


> ... Here in the UK it's much more random... some vets who claim they [do] *early neuter*
> mean [they'll desex] prior to... 6-MO, [rather than at 6-MO or over].


if the vet is vague, be specific. Make it a simple yes or no Q:

_"Will U do pediatric desex on kittens under 14-WO?"_ is brilliantly clear & very simple.

The follow-up Q should be equally simple - if they say Yes, _"How much experience of pediatric
desex do U have?"_ is in order, & if they say No, _"Is there a specific concern U have
as a vet, about the safety of pediatric desex?"_ is certainly reasonable.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

We're perfectly capable of asking the necessary specific questions. The annoyance is in the wasted phone calls to vets who advertise that they do EN when they don't because there is no accepted definition of the term here.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Very interesting thread. I EN everything that leaves me not for breeding, but always wait until 13 weeks to do it as they're a bit bigger and more robust, and have all of their jabs so are a bit better protected.

I absorb the cost of extra food, litter, travel to/from vets etc myself, and a little of the op cost, and pass on a nominal amount to the owners. Every owner has been happy to accept this, as I explain that, yes, it is a little extra, but you'd have had to pay it in a few months anyway, and it's cheaper this way as my vet discounts for whole litters, and easier as they have no pre-post op care.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

havoc said:


> The annoyance is in the wasted phone calls to vets who advertise that they do EN when they don't,
> because there is no accepted definition of the term here.


oh, i see - sorry.  Maybe rather than advertising EN [which *is* more than a little vague!] U could request
of the Veterinary Assoc that members list whether or not they do "PN", Pediatric neuter, as i think
that would eliminate the waffle-factor & make ads more age-specific?

A petition to the small-animal vets' Assoc might be a very good idea, to help consumers find vets
who provide pediatric desex thru more-informative ads, websites, phone listings, & so on. :yesnod:

I'll bet shelters & rescues would love to see "PN" become a standard acronym. :001_smile:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The CPL website showing vets who say they will, oft referred to on this very forum, held great promise at the start. Unfortunately it doesn't deliver. That isn't just down to terminology. In some cases the vet who was confident to do the procedure has moved on - as they do.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

ok got 2 more EN vets in kent! 

Sandhole Vets in Kent treat dogs, cats, rabbits and exotics

there is also one in West Malling, just waiting on the name of it!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

They do? Their web page:



> We recommend neutering of both male and female cats *from *6 months of age.


  :eek6: :yikes:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> They do? Their web page:
> 
> :eek6: :yikes:


The person I spoke to has used them for about 5 years, remember that a lot of vet websites say that anyway, the vet I use say 6months on their website!


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