# Been so stupid, ragdoll no papers



## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

hi, I've recently bought a ragdoll being described as full pedigree. Came with first injection flead wormed, parents reg but kittens not. The only piece of paper did gave me was a photocopy of ancestry of my kittens parents grandparents etc but no where does it have the breeders name on it or signature address etc. After taking the cat to my vet I've found out the cat only got her first inj but didn't get the 2nd one 3 weeks later, and my vet has said the cat is half the weight and size it should be 850g 16 weeks. However I've taken the cat to the breeder vet where she had checks and injections and they don't seem concerned by her size. Breeder has said she will take her back if I feel she's lied. Called gccf and the details for parents she has given are register but how do I know those details are fo her cats i.e. My cats parents


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

What difference will it make to your enjoyment of her?

As always, it's buyer beware and asking to see all the relevant documentation and researching the breeder fully before parting with any money would have been prudent.

I'm assuming she is to be a pet rather than for breeding?


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Its not about enjoyment of her? The issue is my vet has said she isn't healthy weight or size for her age and I've paid a lot of money for her and she doesn't seem to be a good example of the breed. She is just a pet, I've bought 2 other cats from the same lady but different breed and those 2 are loved pets, but I have issue with the dates /age of the kitten not tying in with the size weight of the cat. This I've now found out has been queried by her vet aswell, but told me she was fit and healthy, just a small litter and her vet advised her they were very small and could have health problem associated with that. A breeder should have the cats best interests at heart should I think be honest. Breeding for cash rather than the quality of the breed is what my vet has suggested.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

if I ask her outright if the cats had all her injections and she says yes and she hasn't then that's a down right lie. It's disappointing. As I purchased from her twice I thought I could trust her. Stupid me.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

"Parents reg but kittens not" you won't get paperwork as the breeder's not doing the right thing.

850gm is very small for 16 weeks, odd their vet isn't concerned.
If they're willing to take her back then return her and find a proper breeder.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Perhaps the kitten is younger than the breeder claimed and that is why she is a smaller size than expected. 

I am not condoning the breeder being less than truthful with you, if it is the case. It is disappointing but all you can do about it would be to take the breeder's offer and return the kitten for a full refund. Is that what you want to do?


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

I'm thinking the fact she is offering to take her back that she is being genuine. Perhaps she has made a mistake, she has had some family deaths recently and has suffered some stress with it. The cat is beautiful and she is what I wanted. If not for the vet yelling at me I wouldn't even think twice, and I'm not exaggerating she yelled. Told me I should be going to cats protection and getting a cat, and that I'm part of the problem with these breeds. The vet ripped me a new arsehole about the size of her and aqqused my breeder of kitten farming and saying she might report her. It's really upset me and knocked my confidence. Like I say my other cats I got from her are healthy happy boys. Also it was my vet practice I went to but a locum vet and I have a meeting for my vet to check her over ( main vet) just feeling down about it.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Well it doesn't sound very professional of the locum vet to yell at you.  . I would be pretty upset too if a vet yelled at me in such circumstances. At least it was not your regular vet behaving like that, so maybe you can take some comfort in that. 

I think maybe try and put the negative experience behind you, and just focus on what your regular vet says when you take your kitten to her/him.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Told me I should be going to cats protection and getting a cat, and that I'm part of the problem with these breeds. The vet ripped me a new arsehole about the size of her and aqqused my breeder of kitten farming and saying she might report her.


Yikes!! Is there another vet practice you can go to? I'm afriad I would not be giving a person like this my custom, whether you have bought badly or not!! However, I would agree that 860g is way too small for a 16 week old Ragdoll and you really should have received registration papers with your kitten and she should have been fully vaccinated before you got her. Obviously there seems to be some sort of confusion going on here as the breeder is saying she's vaccinated but she quite clearly isn't. If you wish to keep the kitten then obviously that is your prerogative. You say she isn't a good example of the breed; in what way?


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## Elaine b37 (May 25, 2014)

I would be furious if a vet or locum vet spoke to me like this, I would be writing a very strong letter of complaint to the owner/practice manager and would be looking for a new vet, you may have to see this locum again at some point maybe even (hopefully not) in an emergency, would you feel confident with her advising or caring for your cats? I wouldnt


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

spotty cats said:


> "Parents reg but kittens not" you won't get paperwork as the breeder's not doing the right thing.
> 
> 850gm is very small for 16 weeks, odd their vet isn't concerned.
> If they're willing to take her back then return her and find a proper breeder.


I know it's small, my vets says it's a sick kitty and that's why it's so small and she shouldn't be selling them like that. The kitten was only 400g when her vet gave the injections at 12 wks or so. She has put on 300g since being with me in 12 days, and that's why her vets aren't concerned, they think the kitten hasn't been getting enough nutrients/feeding from mum., but I spoke to the woman the day after I picked kitty up to say I thought she was small built which is fine but her


Tigermoon said:


> Yikes!! Is there another vet practice you can go to? I'm afriad I would not be giving a person like this my custom, whether you have bought badly or not!! However, I would agree that 860g is way too small for a 16 week old Ragdoll and you really should have received registration papers with your kitten and she should have been fully vaccinated before you got her. Obviously there seems to be some sort of confusion going on here as the breeder is saying she's vaccinated but she quite clearly isn't. If you wish to keep the kitten then obviously that is your prerogative. You say she isn't a good example of the breed; in what way?


hi oh she looks the part in terms of if you picture a seal point ragdoll, then she is one but after speaking to the vet her size and build aren't what you would expect even for a girl. There are 2 vet practices, the owner of my vets is meeting with me to go over what's happened, they are great, it was a locum. Apparently there are plenty cats in shelters that I should have been adopting. The kitten had only been given her first set of shots but not the second. As I asked her outright I didn't think she would lie to my face, on vet record card it's definitely only first,, and the woman thinks that the first one is the only one they need as they're not outdoor cats. Why I replied to her that's bollock, my cats have an outdoor enclosure and I would never dream of not vaccinating them fully.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Elaine b37 said:


> I would be furious if a vet or locum vet spoke to me like this, I would be writing a very strong letter of complaint to the owner/practice manager and would be looking for a new vet, you may have to see this locum again at some point maybe even (hopefully not) in an emergency, would you feel confident with her advising or caring for your cats? I wouldnt


I know I'm very upset. There's a way to speak to someone when they're your client. Should've seen how she handled the kitten aswell. Didn't examine her at all. Other than weigh her and stab her with a needle. Spent the whole time lecturing me and also told me her eyes will soon start weeping and her systems will shut down, she will be dead within a year. It was fun. For the record her eyes aren't weepy at all, and she is a chunky wee thing but small.


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## Elaine b37 (May 25, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> I know I'm very upset. There's a way to speak to someone when they're your client. Should've seen how she handled the kitten aswell. Didn't examine her at all. Other than weigh her and stab her with a needle. Spent the whole time lecturing me and also told me her eyes will soon start weeping and her systems will shut down, she will be dead within a year. It was fun. For the record her eyes aren't weepy at all, and she is a chunky wee thing but small.


this is outrageous! I can understand the concern about backyard breeding for profit and not for anything else but surely it is not a vet's place, locum or not, to be so aggressive and worry you, I would not be darkening their door again once you have raised your concerns with their practice manager


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Ragdoll lover said:


> I know it's small, my vets says it's a sick kitty and that's why it's so small and she shouldn't be selling them like that. The kitten was only 400g when her vet gave the injections at 12 wks or so. She has put on 300g since being with me in 12 days, and that's why her vets aren't concerned, they think the kitten hasn't been getting enough nutrients/feeding from mum., but I spoke to the woman the day after I picked kitty up to say I thought she was small built which is fine but her.
> hi oh she looks the part in terms of if you picture a seal point ragdoll, then she is one but after speaking to the vet her size and build aren't what you would expect even for a girl.


OK it looks like there are a couple of issues going on here.
Firstly the breeder: It would appear that she has failed in her duty to raise this kitten properly, in that it clearly hasn't been fed correctly and has as a result ended up severely underweight. Was she actually weaned?? (as a guide my Birmans are usually 1.5kg by 12 weeks and they are a smaller breed than Ragdolls). The breeder has also lied about the vaccinations she has given and has not registered the kittens either. Now, obviously there has been a few issues in this breeders life recently but that really isn't any excuse to lie about what has and hasn't been done while making up some nonsense excuse, nor to neglect the animal's basic needs.
Secondly the Locum vet: A kitten who is 16 weeks old often looks rather gangly and out of proportion anyway, that is normal, a 16 week old who is underweight will look considerably worse. Unless the vet actually bred Ragdolls herself (I'm guessing not buy her comments) then I highly doubt she has the ability to tell a good one from a bad one. I would definitely be putting in an official complaint if this happened to me.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

#Update. Took the kitten(daphne) to the other vets, they saw me for 45 minutes and were brilliant. Their assessment of the kitten is that she is perfectly healthy, no heart murmur, no respiratory problems, no eye infection. Has put on 400g since she has been with me (2wks) the vet even gave me flea treatment which the other vet refused. They weighed daphne, took her temperature, checked her coat and skin. Absolutely nothing wrong. (And they refused to charge me for the appointment which I was more than happy to pay for) What they have noted on both visits is that in their opinion the kittens are not the age she has given, their reasons being the size and weight and the coat is fuzzy and what they would expect of a 10 week old ragdoll. She then contacted a vet here who breeds ragdolls and although that vet didn't examine she would agree that daphne wasn't born on 14th march. I have a meeting on Friday this week at my vets to discuss the other vets treatment or lack there of. cant wait for the one.thanks for everyone's replies. I feel like I can finally relax and enjoy my baby girl.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

It's also going to very helpful that I managed to catch 4.5 minutes of the locum vet and how she treated me on video. She isn't on the video but the audio is clear enough to hear how badly she was behaving. X


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

Why would a vet say she'll be dead within the year? Even the worst of BYB cats are not going to die in their first year. I would have thought a prognosis like that is not usually given unless their are key symptoms.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Don't know how she came to the conclusion, she looked like she was going explode. Didn't even examine the kitten , just pulled some crust from her eye and said weepy eyes are a sign of a sick cat, and "these" cats die within the first year, exact words, I have that bit on audio. I only took my cat for injections, I'm still shocked at her treatment of me as you can understand I wasn't expecting it at all.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Citruspips said:


> Why would a vet say she'll be dead within the year?


Because the locum vet is undoubtedly anti-breeder. 


Ragdoll lover said:


> It's also going to very helpful that I managed to catch 4.5 minutes of the locum vet and how she treated me on video. She isn't on the video but the audio is clear enough to hear how badly she was behaving. X


Thats handy. I hope the meeting goes well.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2017)

I should imagine there was a reason for your Locum yelling at you - I am not trying to excuse their behaviour, but, don't forget, they are only human & animal lovers too, or, they wouldn't do the job they do. Maybe they had just nursed a BYB kitten & it died etc. It must be so frustrating for a vet to have the same thing over & over again - animals purchased from kitten farms / back yard breeders, taken away from Mums too early etc etc all the illnesses that this entails. It frustrates me too as an animal lover. People spend longer researching a mobile phone which you will have 3 years max, than a cat. How far we have come when half a thousand pounds has so little value. If I am spending that sort of money, I want to make sure it is exactly what I am looking for. I have NEVER purchased / adopted a cat on a whim. I researched Burmese for about 4 months, then waited a few weeks - and rang the Burmese cat club to make sure I was asking the right questions. Argentium I waited 5 months for because I wanted that particular colour boy. If I get fed up reading about it, I know my vet gets entirely sick to death of it & she reports each & every back yard breeder she comes across.
Nobody likes being yelled at, I know, but, if she didn't feel for cats, she wouldn't be any sort of vet I would want to go to.
Just my two penneth for what it is worth.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

No matter how frustrated the vet was ,in my opinion there is absoutely no excuse for such unprofessional behaviour. A complaint to the Practice Manager is fully justified.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Franlow said:


> I should imagine there was a reason for your Locum yelling at you - I am not trying to excuse their behaviour, but, don't forget, they are only human & animal lovers too, or, they wouldn't do the job they do. Maybe they had just nursed a BYB kitten & it died etc. It must be so frustrating for a vet to have the same thing over & over again - animals purchased from kitten farms / back yard breeders, taken away from Mums too early etc etc all the illnesses that this entails. It frustrates me too as an animal lover. People spend longer researching a mobile phone which you will have 3 years max, than a cat. How far we have come when half a thousand pounds has so little value. If I am spending that sort of money, I want to make sure it is exactly what I am looking for. I have NEVER purchased / adopted a cat on a whim. I researched Burmese for about 4 months, then waited a few weeks - and rang the Burmese cat club to make sure I was asking the right questions. Argentium I waited 5 months for because I wanted that particular colour boy. If I get fed up reading about it, I know my vet gets entirely sick to death of it & she reports each & every back yard breeder she comes across.
> Nobody likes being yelled at, I know, but, if she didn't feel for cats, she wouldn't be any sort of vet I would want to go to.
> Just my two penneth for what it is worth
> 
> "I have never purchased a cat on whim" why is it you think I have exactly, I have been waiting for a cat from her for 1year 2 months since I picked up my Maine cone cross from her and I decided I didn't want another male cat so couldn't have a ragdoll then. The previous year I picked up another Maine coon cross. She doesn't normally give her cats away before 13 weeks, i know this because I had to wait for each of my first 2 cats. This is the opinion of the vet that she is younger, and another breeder has offered that perhaps she hasn't gotten the nutrients she needs from mum/food. This unfortunately is guess work. And actually this wasn't a situation to be yelling at a client. My cat was and hasn't been neglected by me nor have I declined to give her the best start. Up your own arse or what.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Franlow said:


> I should imagine there was a reason for your Locum yelling at you - I am not trying to excuse their behaviour, but, don't forget, they are only human & animal lovers too, or, they wouldn't do the job they do. Maybe they had just nursed a BYB kitten & it died etc. It must be so frustrating for a vet to have the same thing over & over again - animals purchased from kitten farms / back yard breeders, taken away from Mums too early etc etc all the illnesses that this entails. It frustrates me too as an animal lover. People spend longer researching a mobile phone which you will have 3 years max, than a cat. How far we have come when half a thousand pounds has so little value. If I am spending that sort of money, I want to make sure it is exactly what I am looking for. I have NEVER purchased / adopted a cat on a whim. I researched Burmese for about 4 months, then waited a few weeks - and rang the Burmese cat club to make sure I was asking the right questions. Argentium I waited 5 months for because I wanted that particular colour boy. If I get fed up reading about it, I know my vet gets entirely sick to death of it & she reports each & every back yard breeder she comes across.
> Nobody likes being yelled at, I know, but, if she didn't feel for cats, she wouldn't be any sort of vet I would want to go to.
> Just my two penneth for what it is worth.


And if there was a reason for the vet yelling, then why did the other vets not react the same? Because she is a healthy cat, that's why.


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## Elaine b37 (May 25, 2014)

I agree with Susie there is absolutely no excuse for a vet, locum or otherwise, to shout at a responsible pet owner who has brought their kitten in for a check up, advice and vaccinations, what would it achieve?


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2017)

I understand you are angry about being shouted at, but, everyone is entitled to an off day. She shouldn't have yelled at you, but, I cannot imagine she wouldn't have had a reason. To be fair, the person who conned you was the breeder, yet, you don't seem anywhere near as angry with her, than you do with the vet. I should imagine the vet is not a breeder, could well not necessarily be a small animal vet & therefore not au fait with kitten sizes etc. You told her the kitten was 16 weeks, in her opinion, it was incredibly underweight therefore ill & badly bred.


Ragdoll lover said:


> Other than weigh her and stab her with a needle


 You mean vaccinate her.


Ragdoll lover said:


> and her vet advised her they were very small and could have health problem associated with that


You said this earlier. The longer this post goes on, the angrier you are. I don't see the point in going into any meeting angry, you then come across as being unreasonable. Write down your grievances with the vet in question AND the back yard breeder who sold you the kitten originally, SHE is the person who has conned you out of your money as you say.
Just don't loose your rag & start swearing. Be calm, tell them you don't appreciate the way you were spoken to & take it from there.
I really am not trying to be controversial her, just calm down. It happened to me & I have a practise with very experienced vets, I got a telling off when I took a litter of 6 week old BSH kittens in to be checked. Luckily my vet knows me very well & understood the circumstances when I explained, also knowing there is no way I would have purchased them. She was also worried that they would not be healthy due to size & age. I cannot speak for the ones the CPL took, but the 2 girls we ended up keeping are right chunky monkeys. People like your breeder are NOT being genuine offering you a return on the kitten, they know you will have been emotionally invested in the little one & are very unlikely to return her. I have also heard the 'death in the family' story too often from these breeders to believe any of them - apologies if it is true'.
Having been through a very traumatic death a few years ago, I still managed to run my Business, there is NO excuse for what she did to you.
Good luck with the meeting.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

That vet is an absolute disgrace and if it happened to me I would be making a very big deal out of it


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I must admit I value my vets' professionalism and patience as much as their expertise. Any vet who cannot control themselves when dealing with an animal should not really be practising. A consultation can be a stressful time for vet, owner and cat alike but the cat's needs must come first.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Franlow said:


> I understand you are angry about being shouted at, but, everyone is entitled to an off day. She shouldn't have yelled at you, but, I cannot imagine she wouldn't have had a reason. To be fair, the person who conned you was the breeder, yet, you don't seem anywhere near as angry with her, than you do with the vet. I should imagine the vet is not a breeder, could well not necessarily be a small animal vet & therefore not au fait with kitten sizes etc. You told her the kitten was 16 weeks, in her opinion, it was incredibly underweight therefore ill & badly bred.
> You mean vaccinate her.
> 
> You said this earlier. The longer this post goes on, the angrier you are. I don't see the point in going into any meeting angry, you then come across as being unreasonable. Write down your grievances with the vet in question AND the back yard breeder who sold you the kitten originally, SHE is the person who has conned you out of your money as you say.
> ...


Yes not my finest moment swearing, I apologise.
Oh trust me, I have had words with the breeder, and we now have no relationship whatsoever after having a very friendly relationship. Her gran did die, I know this woman. Other things going on aswell. Perhaps not the best time to be breeding. I feel like she has lied to me. The issue I have is the vet shouldn't be yelling at me, who is fairly innocent and I take very good care of my cats. No examination means she based everything on looks, but the other vets practice have found nothing wrong other than being small,(she is perfectly proportioned but small) 
and she is growing at 200g a week is a lot for a small kitten since I've had her. I might be fed up when at my work people don't bring their kids back for treatment, but our optician would never yell at a parent.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2017)

Ragdoll lover said:


> but our optician would never yell at a parent


I would, which is undoubtedly why I don't work with the public 
Good luck with your meeting & enjoy your baby.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Franlow said:


> I understand you are angry about being shouted at, but, everyone is entitled to an off day. She shouldn't have yelled at you, but, I cannot imagine she wouldn't have had a reason. To be fair, the person who conned you was the breeder, yet, you don't seem anywhere near as angry with her, than you do with the vet. I should imagine the vet is not a breeder, could well not necessarily be a small animal vet & therefore not au fait with kitten sizes etc. You told her the kitten was 16 weeks, in her opinion, it was incredibly underweight therefore ill & badly bred.
> You mean vaccinate her.
> 
> You said this earlier. The longer this post goes on, the angrier you are. I don't see the point in going into any meeting angry, you then come across as being unreasonable. Write down your grievances with the vet in question AND the back yard breeder who sold you the kitten originally, SHE is the person who has conned you out of your money as you say.
> ...


Who on earth says I'm going to go in and yell anywhere? The locum vet wont be there and my normal vets are lovely. I'm not ruining my relationship with my vet over a vet who never sees the same pet twice.
I was more than prepared to give the cat back dependant on the outcome of the meeting with the other vets. I'm not too attached after 2weeks, she is a wee sweety, but im not going to keep a sick kitty if she has hidden am going to call sspca and see if they can send someone round to see the other dogs and cats she has, maybe I'll get to the bottom if it and get some peace of mind.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Who on earth says I'm going to go in and yell anywhere? The locum vet wont be there and my normal vets are lovely. I'm not ruining my relationship with my vet over a vet who never sees the same pet twice.
> I was more than prepared to give the cat back dependant on the outcome of the meeting with the other vets. I'm not too attached after 2weeks, she is a wee sweety, but im not going to keep a sick kitty if she has hidden am going to call sspca and see if they can send someone round to see the other dogs and cats she has, maybe I'll get to the bottom if it and get some peace of mind.


If I got a similar reaction at the other vets I could understand her reaction, but I never. still doesn't give her a reason not to examine the kitten at the first appointment and I'm pretty sure she would prefer me to be buying a kitty from a cat home who is normally there because pet owners are irresponsible and don't spay/neuter their cats.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Franlow said:


> I would, which is undoubtedly why I don't work with the public
> Good luck with your meeting & enjoy your baby.


I will enjoy her, we all are. it's just the whole thing has knocked my confidence and left me feeling like a failure. Wish I could warn other people about the breeder.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2017)

860gm at 16 weeks for a Ragdoll? OMG. I have a fit, healthy, almost 9 month old moggy here who was rescued from a "situation" at 8 weeks old and she weighed 1.7kg at 16 weeks old and a fully registered Selkirk kitten from a "proper" breeder who is 17 weeks old today and weighed just over 2kg at 16 weeks and Selkirks generally are slightly smaller/lighter than Ragdolls as far as I know. Good that she's putting on weight due to your obviously good care but..............................


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Suspect she is quite a bit younger than you were told. My oriental & Siamese kittens are that size several weeks earlier


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Carol Walker said:


> 860gm at 16 weeks for a Ragdoll? OMG. I have a fit, healthy, almost 9 month old moggy here who was rescued from a "situation" at 8 weeks old and she weighed 1.7kg at 16 weeks old and a fully registered Selkirk kitten from a "proper" breeder who is 17 weeks old today and weighed just over 2kg at 16 weeks and Selkirks generally are slightly smaller/lighter than Ragdolls as far as I know. Good that she's putting on weight due to your obviously good care but..............................





OrientalSlave said:


> Suspect she is quite a bit younger than you were told. My oriental & Siamese kittens are that size several weeks earlier


I know, will see how it goes the next few weeks, as all the kittens from the litter were roughly the same size and weight. So it wasn't even like she was a runt the whole time. i just don't understand why she would give them away early . One of my 2 Maine coon x was scrawny compared to my first brut of a boy, the scrawny one has almost caught up in weight now. Will keep u posted on daphnes progress.


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

So am I right here, your 'breeder' bred your other two cats which are Maine Coon crosses?


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Citruspips said:


> So am I right here, your 'breeder' bred your other two cats which are Maine Coon crosses?


Yes.


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

Breeders don't breed crosses so she's no question a BYB which means you can't expect to trust anything she said to you. Maybe the vet knew of her and felt you were supporting what most consider to be unethical kitten production. Saying that I believe, no matter what, vets usually have high professional standards and being rude to clients is not the norm. 
If your kitten is healthy and happy and you want to keep her then just put it down to experience and enjoy her. I expect, as others have said, her size is due to her young age rather than a health issue. Just keep on doing what your doing she's obviously thriving now.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

These are my boys, the light one was a stocky heavy boy, his brother the dark one, was quite gangly. This new girl she says is wee because the mum is wee. Now saying she might have made a mistake with dates???


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Citruspips said:


> Breeders don't breed crosses so she's no question a BYB which means you can't expect to trust anything she said to you. Maybe the vet knew of her and felt you were supporting what most consider to be unethical kitten production. Saying that I believe, no matter what, vets usually have high professional standards and being rude to clients is not the norm.
> If your kitten is healthy and happy and you want to keep her then just put it down to experience and enjoy her. I expect, as others have said, her size is due to her young age rather than a health issue. Just keep on doing what your doing she's obviously thriving now.


Let's use the word " breeder" lightly then. The vet didn't even get to see the woman's name or address so I can't see that would have swayed her. This locum normally works in England so this area isn't a regular thing for her. I phoned gccf with the reg numbers for her cats that's she gave me but there are no other details on the papers i.e. Name address of woman, so has she just got the numbers online and printed them out to con people?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Franlow said:


> I should imagine there was a reason for your Locum yelling at you - I am not trying to excuse their behaviour, but, don't forget, they are only human & animal lovers too, or, they wouldn't do the job they do. Maybe they had just nursed a BYB kitten & it died etc. It must be so frustrating for a vet to have the same thing over & over again - animals purchased from kitten farms / back yard breeders, taken away from Mums too early etc etc all the illnesses that this entails. It frustrates me too as an animal lover. People spend longer researching a mobile phone which you will have 3 years max, than a cat. How far we have come when half a thousand pounds has so little value. If I am spending that sort of money, I want to make sure it is exactly what I am looking for. I have NEVER purchased / adopted a cat on a whim. I researched Burmese for about 4 months, then waited a few weeks - and rang the Burmese cat club to make sure I was asking the right questions. Argentium I waited 5 months for because I wanted that particular colour boy. If I get fed up reading about it, I know my vet gets entirely sick to death of it & she reports each & every back yard breeder she comes across.
> Nobody likes being yelled at, I know, but, if she didn't feel for cats, she wouldn't be any sort of vet I would want to go to.
> Just my two penneth for what it is worth.


Good for you that you've never made a mistake.

Of course Vets care about animals, or they wouldn't be in the Profession they are.

However, there is no justification for yelling at a Client. None whatsoever.

Express doubts, give advice, yes, but yell? No.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Sweety said:


> Good for you that you've never made a mistake.
> 
> Of course Vets care about animals, or they wouldn't be in the Profession they are.
> 
> ...


I know. I thought she was being a little over the top with her comment there. It's the vet that bothers me. Her way with words, behaviour and the yelling. You don't treat people that way. U would think I neglected the kitten.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ragdoll lover said:


> View attachment 318038
> View attachment 318037
> These are my boys, the light one was a stocky heavy boy, his brother the dark one, was quite gangly. This new girl she says is wee because the mum is wee. Now saying she might have made a mistake with dates???
> View attachment 318040


Was mum really tiny? It's hard to be sure from a photo but she looks about 10 weeks old to me. And it sounds like the 'breeder' is going from one lie to another.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Ragdoll lover said:


> It's the vet that bothers me


Her behaviour certainly was out of order and upsetting for you; but it does happen. I turned up at mine years ago (with two cats) to find that he had retired and sold out to Medivet (I had no idea this had happened). The vet I saw was so rude and offhand whenever I asked anything and handled my cats in much the same way I would handle a bag of rubbish I was taking out. I needed another appointment so when I rang I made a point of saying on no account did I want to see 'Vanessa'. When asked why I said I thought her attitude was awful and was told that she was a very good vet, but didn't ''always connect with people too well and could appear a bit offhand''. I said I didn't give a damn whether she liked me or not, that she wasn't just a bit offhand, she was downright rude and that I got the distinct impression that she hated cats.
Thank you for the pictures; Daphne is tiny, but she is very cute!


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Calvine said:


> Her behaviour certainly was out of order and upsetting for you; but it does happen. I turned up at mine years ago (with two cats) to find that he had retired and sold out to Medivet (I had no idea this had happened). The vet I saw was so rude and offhand whenever I asked anything and handled my cats in much the same way I would handle a bag of rubbish I was taking out. I needed another appointment so when I rang I made a point of saying on no account did I want to see 'Vanessa'. When asked why I said I thought her attitude was awful and was told that she was a very good vet, but didn't ''always connect with people too well and could appear a bit offhand''. I said I didn't give a damn whether she liked me or not, that she wasn't just a bit offhand, she was downright rude and that I got the distinct impression that she hated cats.
> Thank you for the pictures; Daphne is tiny, but she is very cute!


I'm sorry you have had that experience too. Yes this vet handled daphne the same way. Slid her along the table and stuck the needle in her, ( or as I say stabbed her but that was the action) that's no exaggeration. didn't do any other health checks at all, she wanted us out of there! Yes I phoned vets to cancel daphnes 2nd inj for lukemia that's all. The office manager called me back to find out why as it's a bit strange when a client who has already paid for the 2nd part doesn't want to come back for it. She heard the whole thing from the reception.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Was mum really tiny? It's hard to be sure from a photo but she looks about 10 weeks old to me. And it sounds like the 'breeder' is going from one lie to another.


She was much smaller than the other ragdoll girl. Last year she only had 2 ragdoll females now she has 3 and after some digging I suspect that the new one which I went to view last year but didn't take is daphnes mum, that one was smaller for sure but not tiny. She has now stopped communication with me as of yesterday as she is angry that I'm questioning her ( I don't want anyone else to make to same mistake) also she marketed them as full,pedigree but they can't be classed as a pedigree without papers. I'm not a snob, . I don't "only "want a pedigree but she is selling them as a pedigree that's what I've said to her.The cats nature and the look is what I love about the breed.


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## Chippers (Jun 16, 2015)

As a comparison, this is my ragdoll at 16 weeks, he was quite gangly, Daphne looks much younger. He also came from a byb as I didn't know any different. He's fine and healthy though


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

@Ragdoll lover your boys are gorgeous and your kitten is beautiful. She does look very young though.

I think you'll find many of us on here have been had by a BYB, myself included. Crunchie, in my avatar, is a MC cross lol. Still it's often not until it happens that you learn what goes on. I got Jango from a proper breeder and the difference was incredible. I wouldn't change Crunchie for the world though so if I were you I'd find a vet you feel happy with and just enjoy her.

As a side note, I think it's a shame that it seems searching for a particular breed of dog is considered quite normal but there are some who think cats should come from rescues and pedigrees are just fanciful which is a shame. Ive lost count how many people have said to me when they discover Jango is a pedigree cat, oh he must've cost a lot. I don't think anyone would say that if I'd introduced a new Labrador or Spaniel. Sorry, I'm going off topic here I think more pictures of that little gorgeous bundle are in order.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Chippers said:


> As a comparison, this is my ragdoll at 16 weeks, he was quite gangly, Daphne looks much younger. He also came from a byb as I didn't know any different. He's fine and healthy though
> View attachment 318053
> View attachment 318054


I'm officially in love. What a beauty. I have learned my lesson. I just want her to be healthy and happy.


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## Chippers (Jun 16, 2015)

Ragdoll lover said:


> I'm officially in love. What a beauty. I have learned my lesson. I just want her to be healthy and happy.




He's now 2 and a half and even more handsome..any excuse to share a photo


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Ragdoll lover said:


> a client who has already paid for the 2nd part doesn't want to come back for it


Ragdoll lover: Me too, I'd paid in advance for two so to have cancelled and let them keep the full amount would have been too much like rewarding them for having such an unpleasant person working there. It was the only reason I went back...I heard from someone else they had a really nice guy working there but I didn't want to risk seeing her again.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Citruspips said:


> I think you'll find many of us on here have been had by a BYB



Yep! Even those of us who really should know better get had too. My Persian Fizz came from a BYB who dolls herself up as a respectable breeder, and although I had a slight niggle I told myself I was being silly, pushed my doubts aside and bought the kitten anyway ... an expensive exercise and also a very emotional one which sadly for me and particularly for Fizz didn't have a happy ending.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Tigermoon said:


> Yep! Even those of us who really should know better get had too. My Persian Fizz came from a BYB who dolls herself up as a respectable breeder, and although I had a slight niggle I told myself I was being silly, pushed my doubts aside and bought the kitten anyway ... an expensive exercise and also a very emotional one which sadly for me and particularly for Fizz didn't have a happy ending.


Oh no what happened to fizz in the end?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

No way condoning bybs etc but to defend tiny kittens - my current litter are all, except one, quite a bit below the weights I would expect them to be for their age. Vet checked while having their 1st vaccinations but there does not appear to be an obvious reason apart from the fact that they were slow to start weaning. I have been upfront with all of their new slaves to say that they are not as big as they should be, should their own vets query their ages.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Oh no what happened to fizz in the end?


I had to have her put to sleep after struggling with an infection she'd come to us with. The breeder knew, thats why they were selling her. She had no care for Fizz, or any other cats Fizz would come into contact with, or the people who she sold Fizz too. Callous to the core, a real heartless *****.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

Citruspips said:


> Breeders don't breed crosses so she's no question a BYB


My two are cross breeds from a registered and respected TICA breeder - they are an exception however as their Bengal mum had been put to three different Bengal boys and despite being mated, nothing had happened. Worried about Pyometria and with her vet saying that nothing was wrong with Indy, she put her to her lilac Somali Stud and they had one litter of 6 kittens. Indy has since gone on to have 2 pure bred Bengal litters.

I think you're right for 90% of cases, but there are exceptions.

Anyway - Daphne is super cute and I'm glad to hear she'd growing like a little weed


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

lymorelynn said:


> No way condoning bybs etc but to defend tiny kittens - my current litter are all, except one, quite a bit below the weights I would expect them to be for their age. Vet checked while having their 1st vaccinations but there does not appear to be an obvious reason apart from the fact that they were slow to start weaning. I have been upfront with all of their new slaves to say that they are not as big as they should be, should their own vets query their ages.


slaves! I love it. Never a truer word been said. Thanks for your input. Will just try to concentrate on her putting on weight, she gets weighed again on Friday. Fingers crossed she has put on weight.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Tigermoon said:


> I had to have her put to sleep after struggling with an infection she'd come to us with. The breeder knew, thats why they were selling her. She had no care for Fizz, or any other cats Fizz would come into contact with, or the people who she sold Fizz too. Callous to the core, a real heartless *****.


That's heartbreaking. I think the one thing I've got going for me is she is ok just now. Guess I'm lucky mines thus far hasn't been poorly. Infact she is a very happy fiesty baby girl. X


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Citruspips said:


> Breeders don't breed crosses so she's no question a BYB which means you can't expect to trust anything she said to you. Maybe the vet knew of her and felt you were supporting what most consider to be unethical kitten production. Saying that I believe, no matter what, vets usually have high professional standards and being rude to clients is not the norm.
> If your kitten is healthy and happy and you want to keep her then just put it down to experience and enjoy her. I expect, as others have said, her size is due to her young age rather than a health issue. Just keep on doing what your doing she's obviously thriving now.


It's my understanding that ragamuffins are a ragdoll cross breed and they are a registered breed with gccf. Yes she is definitely thriving. The boys love her and she is fitting in well. X


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

I think what I was getting at @Erenya and @Ragdoll lover was the label so often seen in adverts e.g. Maine Coon Cross, British Short Hair Cross etc. I'm sure there are acceptable crosses but that word 'cross' certainly sounds alarm bells to me.

I accept I maybe wrong but I think in the vast majority of cases 'cross' means bought a pedigree but didn't get her spayed thought it would be nice to have kittens or BYB.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Ragdoll lover said:


> It's my understanding that ragamuffins are a ragdoll cross breed and they are a registered breed with gccf. Yes she is definitely thriving. The boys love her and she is fitting in well. X


No, Muffins are their own breed. Outcrosses were made way back in the very beginning, but they're not longer allowed as Muffins have been well established as their own breed with their own breed standard.

Glad your little one is doing well, it's unfortunate that you have three cats from a known byb, I can't say I agree or even understand why anyone would do this, but I'm very glad your little dot is happy and is growing well under your care.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

Citruspips said:


> I think what I was getting at @Erenya and @Ragdoll lover was the label so often seen in adverts e.g. Maine Coon Cross, British Short Hair Cross etc. I'm sure there are acceptable crosses but that word 'cross' certainly sounds alarm bells to me.
> 
> I accept I maybe wrong but I think in the vast majority of cases 'cross' means bought a pedigree but didn't get her spayed thought it would be nice to have kittens or BYB.


I totally agree with this - it's also amazing that these 'breeders' (in the loosest sense of the word) seem to think that as a pedigree cat will cost £500, they can charge £250 for a cross. Ours cost only slightly more than going to a rescue - after all they weren't bred to make money.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Citruspips said:


> I think what I was getting at @Erenya and @Ragdoll lover was the label so often seen in adverts e.g. Maine Coon Cross, British Short Hair Cross etc. I'm sure there are acceptable crosses but that word 'cross' certainly sounds alarm bells to me.
> 
> I accept I maybe wrong but I think in the vast majority of cases 'cross' means bought a pedigree but didn't get her spayed thought it would be nice to have kittens or BYB.


Unless it's an approved outcross then to me there is no acceptable cross-bred cat. I agree with your second paragraph to a degree though sadly a lot of the people advertising that sort of cross have £££ in their eyes.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Citruspips said:


> Breeders don't breed crosses so she's no question a BYB.


Not quite. There are a number of pedigree breeds have accepted crossing allowed within their breed standard, and plenty of breeders who do so, myself included. The difference is that a proper Breeder will always treat any such crosses just like any of their other kittens, they will be registered, vaccinated and not left go until they are at least 12-13 weeks of age.


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## Lisa2701 (May 15, 2010)

I haven't read through all of the replies and update on this thread, just the first page so I'm sorry if I say anything weird here because I've missed out on some update or conversation I haven't seen however I just wanted to offer an experience I have had that may be reassuring for you.

My mum used to breed cocker spaniels (yes I know dogs are a totally different species but hear me out) and she done absolutely everything right. Both parents were health checked and puppies were hereditary clear for all the known breed issues. Parents were matched based on their strengths and weaknesses and both had lovely temperaments. My mum would travel the length of the UK to get the right stud for her bitches. Anyway, in one of the litter we had the tinies little cocker puppy ever. She was perfectly proportioned and a good weight for her size but she was half the size she should have been. As a result we sat day and night every 2 hours and ensured she got onto one of the mothers best teats for at least the first few weeks until she was strong enough to hold her own against her bigger brothers (she was the only bitch in the litter). Anyway, long story short... she turned into a perfectly healthy and seriously feisty (she had to be to put up with her boisterous brothers haha) little puppy. She was one of the wildest puppies we ever had and my mum refused to sell her to an inexperienced family. In the end the family who took her kept in touch and she grew to a completely normal sized dog. Absolutely no idea why she was so small but it does happen even when everything has been done right.

That's said...... it doesn't sound like your breeder is being totally above board if the vets think this kitten is younger than the breeder says. Vets see enough kittens that you would think they should know a 10 week old vs 16 week old. And saying they are vaccinated when they aren't isn't on! Could you call her vets and ask them to confirm in writing how many vaccinations the kittens got? Also, the fact she is rapidly gaining weight with you does sound like there was a nutritional issue. Although not ideal for her or you it sounds to me like she's lucky to have gotten to you when she did.

Also, the way that vet spoke to you was disgusting! She should be ashamed of herself! It is none of her business if you want to rescue, buy a moggy, buy a pedigree or take in a flipping stray... her job is not to judge, her job is to treat, end of! And I think the practice should be offering you some free vaccinations or something to compensate you for the anguish and upset.

The main thing is your little one is healthy, and may be small, which is disappointing because I think most people get a pedigree because you should know roughly what your getting in terms of size and temperament etc, but I'm sure your little girl will make the most wonderful pet none the less.

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to share my experience of having a tiny puppy and how that puppy turned out perfectly healthy and normal to try put ur mind at rest that she may not be tiny forever. She could well be, but maybe not. X

Edit: I have just seen the picture of your little girl and she is gorgeous!! Tiny yes, and I agree with everyone that she's not 16 weeks, but none the less she is absolutely beautiful. X


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

How long before they start to give the 'cross' kittens designer names (like labradoodle/cavapoo etc). Blue Muffin anyone?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Calvine said:


> How long before they start to give the 'cross' kittens designer names (like labradoodle/cavapoo etc). Blue Muffin anyone?


I've already seen some SiaCoon advertised in recent years!


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Lisa2701 said:


> I haven't read through all of the replies and update on this thread, just the first page so I'm sorry if I say anything weird here because I've missed out on some update or conversation I haven't seen however I just wanted to offer an experience I have had that may be reassuring for you.
> 
> My mum used to breed cocker spaniels (yes I know dogs are a totally different species but hear me out) and she done absolutely everything right. Both parents were health checked and puppies were hereditary clear for all the known breed issues. Parents were matched based on their strengths and weaknesses and both had lovely temperaments. My mum would travel the length of the UK to get the right stud for her bitches. Anyway, in one of the litter we had the tinies little cocker puppy ever. She was perfectly proportioned and a good weight for her size but she was half the size she should have been. As a result we sat day and night every 2 hours and ensured she got onto one of the mothers best teats for at least the first few weeks until she was strong enough to hold her own against her bigger brothers (she was the only bitch in the litter). Anyway, long story short... she turned into a perfectly healthy and seriously feisty (she had to be to put up with her boisterous brothers haha) little puppy. She was one of the wildest puppies we ever had and my mum refused to sell her to an inexperienced family. In the end the family who took her kept in touch and she grew to a completely normal sized dog. Absolutely no idea why she was so small but it does happen even when everything has been done right.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response. I went to her vets on Saturday morning. Had a very long appointment with them and they wouldn't charge me, they told me they advised that the kittens were small and queried their age, they can't find any health problems with her from routine checks. The vet confirmed that the kitten had been given 1 of the tri cat injections but not the 2nd part. The seller has said the cats aren't out door cats so don't need the second part. ( Erm they do) i would never dream of not vaccinating them fully. I have a meeting with my vet on Friday as I cancelled daphnes 2nd appointment for the lukemia injection after the locum vet treated me so badly. But I am disappointed it came to that as I've used the vets place for around 18 years, and none of this is their fault. They're lovely. Had someone in a previous comment say it's ok cause the vet might have had an off day. Nope she was pretty cheery when I went in the room, so I saw her happy and her mad. And it's still not ok. Had to ask the other vets for flea treatment because she wouldn't give me any. Deary me. X


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> No, Muffins are their own breed. Outcrosses were made way back in the very beginning, but they're not longer allowed as Muffins have been well established as their own breed with their own breed standard.
> 
> Glad your little one is doing well, it's unfortunate that you have three cats from a known byb, I can't say I agree or even understand why anyone would do this, but I'm very glad your little dot is happy and is growing well under your care.


Oh dear, it's all very complicated . They're cats at the end of the day, pets only that I love with all my heart. It only matters that they're healthy and happy. The girl however is marketed as pedigree blah blah blah. That's the annoying thing. Do you think I should warn other people or let them make a mistake and keep my mouth shut. She sold 2 kittens just recently and has more on the way and 3 ready now.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Calvine said:


> How long before they start to give the 'cross' kittens designer names (like labradoodle/cavapoo etc). Blue Muffin anyone?


Ha 
Your gonna love this then. She has cocka poo puppies for sale for £650! I knew my boys were cross breeds, she didnt try to say they were designer or anything. Just wee daphne is a pedigree. Not!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> Not quite. There are a number of pedigree breeds have accepted crossing allowed within their breed standard, and plenty of breeders who do so, myself included. The difference is that a proper Breeder will always treat any such crosses just like any of their other kittens, they will be registered, vaccinated and not left go until they are at least 12-13 weeks of age.


And the cross will be with an approved outcross for the breed according to the current registration policy. For example I know some people bringing cinnamon into Asians, so they have used a cinnamon Abyssinian in their program, and this is listed as an acceptable outcross in the GCCF registration policy. BYBs simply use whatever they can get their hands on.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

View attachment 318186
. Last photo I promise. Because girls deserve flowers


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Ragdoll lover said:


> It's my understanding that ragamuffins are a ragdoll cross breed and they are a registered breed with gccf.





Rufus15 said:


> No, Muffins are their own breed. Outcrosses were made way back in the very beginning, but they're not longer allowed as Muffins have been well established as their own breed with their own breed standard.


If you really want to find out the history of Ragdolls and Ragamuffins and the fact that they are basically the same breed but that defection and bad blood between breeders forced the creation of the two individual breeds we know today, take a look and this link http://www.chehamragamuffins.co.uk/page_1280525.html


Calvine said:


> How long before they start to give the 'cross' kittens designer names (like labradoodle/cavapoo etc). Blue Muffin anyone?


This has already been going on for years, much to the annoyance of those breeders producing genuine outcrosses, who are not given fancy names.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Tigermoon said:


> If you really want to find out the history of Ragdolls and Ragamuffins and the fact that they are basically the same breed but that defection and bad blood between breeders forced the creation of the two individual breeds we know today, take a look and this link http://www.chehamragamuffins.co.uk/page_1280525.html
> 
> This has already been going on for years, much to the annoyance of those breeders producing genuine outcrosses, who are not given fancy names.


Aye I read on the gccf website that there was a fallout they out crossed with Himalayan, Persians etc. Is that not a cross breed? I really need to get my self educated on this stuff. Just wanted to add we humans are all cross breeds. Lol. X


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Oh dear, it's all very complicated . They're cats at the end of the day, pets only that I love with all my heart. It only matters that they're healthy and happy. The girl however is marketed as pedigree blah blah blah. That's the annoying thing. Do you think I should warn other people or let them make a mistake and keep my mouth shut. She sold 2 kittens just recently and has more on the way and 3 ready now.


Yes you should warn others, and please don't buy from her again. Both Ragdolls and Maine Coons need gene testing for HCM at the very least, and all kittens needs to be with mum until 12 weeks as a minimum, which I'm sure has been iterated on this thread. This "breeder" is unlikely to test and is selling kittens far too young which is not responsible breeding and the essence of a byb. Please discourage others from buying from her, and please don't go back to her again! Buy responsibly from an ethical breeder - you will pay the same amount for more reassurances and a kitten with a lower risk!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Aye I read on the gccf website that there was a fallout they out crossed with Himalayan, Persians etc. Is that not a cross breed?


At the end of the day, no breed is truly 'pure' they all have lots going on at the beginning. Whenever any breed is created it must be mixed with other suitable breeds to create the look that is desired. The breed may be the result of a planned cross to create something new, or it may be a happy coincidence when trying to do something for a longstanding breed. There is an official term used to describe pedigree outcrossed cats which I am not prepared to say on an open forum, but I have never seen a BYB use this term, they just say cross or make up some weird name.

Take for example the Birman: The story goes that two were imported to France, that the male died on route but the female had a litter after arriving. So apart from being bred to her own sons, other breeds were used to expand the genepool; namely Persians, Siamese and moggies. My personal opinion is that a French breeder created the early Birman either on purpose or due to an accidental mating between her Siamese queen and Himalayan Persian stud. She so liked the result she decided to continue and the story was later made up for effect. Then WW2 came along and the Birman breed was almost annihilated. So the French started them again, using the handful that survived and again using Siamese, Persian and moggies. A moggie was used to introduce a new colour to Birmans alongside the more often used Persians. Today Persians are still the accepted outcross for Birmans as the genepool within the UK is very small, moggies and Siamese were blocked way back in the 70's. he Birman today is considered a pure breed, but you won't need to go back too far to find a Persian, and only a little further to find a Siamese and a moggie. UK Birman breeders have been rather backward in importing cats, however the changes to the UK importing system has really helped.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> Yes you should warn others, and please don't buy from her again. Both Ragdolls and Maine Coons need gene testing for HCM at the very least, and all kittens needs to be with mum until 12 weeks as a minimum, which I'm sure has been iterated on this thread. This "breeder" is unlikely to test and is selling kittens far too young which is not responsible breeding and the essence of a byb. Please discourage others from buying from her, and please don't go back to her again! Buy responsibly from an ethical breeder - you will pay the same amount for more reassurances and a kitten with a lower risk!


Last question. She has messaged today to say she is happy to show me her cats details that show her cats are pedigree and they are meant for breeding. Would you know if the papers should have the woman's address and name on it.,I feel she is trying to dig herself out of a hole. And I want to bury her.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Last question. She has messaged today to say she is happy to show me her cats details that show her cats are pedigree and they are meant for breeding. Would you know if the papers should have the woman's address and name on it.,I feel she is trying to dig herself out of a hole. And I want to bury her.


You would need to see the registration document (rather than the pedigree). If she owns both the sire and the dam then yes it should have her name and address as owner. It should also show that the cat is registered for breeding purposes. Each registry is slightly different in how they present the breeding status of the cats, who are they registered with?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Last question. She has messaged today to say she is happy to show me her cats details that show her cats are pedigree and they are meant for breeding. Would you know if the papers should have the woman's address and name on it.,I feel she is trying to dig herself out of a hole. And I want to bury her.


If that is the case, I suggest you say you wish to register your girl. If her parents are GCCF active register, the breeder should have given you all their details on a mating certificate to allow you to register her yourself if she chose not to.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Tigermoon said:


> You would need to see the registration document (rather than the pedigree). If she owns both the sire and the dam then yes it should have her name and address as owner. It should also show that the cat is registered for breeding purposes. Each registry is slightly different in how they present the breeding status of the cats, who are they registered with?


Gccf she says. I phoned gccf last week but the document she gave me only has cats details on it i.e. Breed number 66 and a cssr number or something like that. They couldn't tell me who theses cats are registered to but that they are registered, but could she have gotten these details and be using them anyway.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

QOTN said:


> If that is the case, I suggest you say you wish to register your girl. If her parents are GCCF active register, the breeder should have given you all their details on a mating certificate to allow you to register her yourself if she chose not to.


I asked her if she can give me details so she can be registered. It doesn't even cost a lot, she said no because they are for pets only. And that I've not paid a pedigree price for her. But I feel I have.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Gccf she says. I phoned gccf last week but the document she gave me only has cats details on it i.e. Breed number 66 and a cssr number or something like that. They couldn't tell me who theses cats are registered to but that they are registered, but could she have gotten these details and be using them anyway.


The CSSR numbers are the crucial ones. Ask the office if the parents are on the active register. If they say they are, contact the 'breeder' and ask for the mating certificate so you can register her. The breeder is obliged to supply a mating certificate if the kitten can be registered and is not. You don't have to go ahead with it if you don't want her registered but that would give you your pedigree kitten.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Gccf she says. I phoned gccf last week but the document she gave me only has cats details on it i.e. Breed number 66 and a cssr number or something like that. They couldn't tell me who theses cats are registered to but that they are registered, but could she have gotten these details and be using them anyway.


Thats the pedigree which is created by the breeder herself. I do not know if the GCCF would tell you if the parents were active or not. I can understand that they wouldn't give you details of who the cat belonged to.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> I asked her if she can give me details so she can be registered. It doesn't even cost a lot, *she said no because they are for pets only*. And that I've not paid a pedigree price for her. But I feel I have.


She cannot refuse without breaking the rules. If she wanted them to be pets only she should have registered them on the non-active register.

(@Rufus15 says the office will give details of status.)


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

I would be reporting her to GCCF if she is a registered breeder and trading standards.

Huck is registered as non active (so pet only) and it's common if you don't want the kitten shown because they aren't great quality but still shows they are a full pedigree and traceable.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Your girl does look adorable, if somewhat small...and I do love the name Daphne! I hope all is well with her and that she continues to thrive and be a source of joy and happiness to you ... I am sure she will!! XX


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

QOTN said:


> The CSSR numbers are the crucial ones. Ask the office if the parents are on the active register. If they say they are, contact the 'breeder' and ask for the mating certificate so you can register her. The breeder is obliged to supply a mating certificate if the kitten can be registered and is not. You don't have to go ahead with it if you don't want her registered but that would give you your pedigree kitten.


The woman at gccf told me that the two cats numbers I gave her are registered for breeding. She charges £395 for these cats. Without full injections. She says the price I paid is non reg price, but she isn't pedigree if she isn't registered.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

I am not sure GCCF allow cats to be homed without 2nd vaccinations??? Certainly it's not in their recommendations.

You are right she is not pedigree if not registered at all and I would be concerned the breeder has something to hide.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

huckybuck said:


> I would be reporting her to GCCF if she is a registered breeder and trading standards.
> 
> Huck is registered as non active (so pet only) and it's common if you don't want the kitten shown because they aren't great quality but still shows they are a full pedigree and traceable.


She doesn't come up on the registered breeders map on gccf, she says her cats are registered to breed, but she isn't a registered breeder. Which I stupidly thought if your cats are registered then u must be a registered breeder.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> The woman at gccf told me that the two cats numbers I gave her are registered for breeding. She charges £395 for these cats. Without full injections. She says the price I paid is non reg price, but she isn't pedigree if she isn't registered.


Quote the rules at the 'breeder.' She must provide a mating certificate. If she refuses, contact the GCCF and inform them. She was also breaking the rules selling a kitten under 13 weeks old without an initial course of vaccinations completed at least a week before you collected her unless it was agreed in writing between you and her prior to the sale.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Trading standards - as she is passing herself off as a GCCF breeder


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

huckybuck said:


> I am not sure GCCF allow cats to be homed without 2nd vaccinations??? Certainly it's not in their recommendations.


This is the messages she was sending me. Well some of them.
I will find it.







Hey has this kitten had its injections? Xx
*29 JUNE 00:12*
*Maxine*
am I able to register the kitten as pedigree once I get him, with his mum and dad being registered? Or is that not done.? Ps not sure if u got my last message but has the kitten had his 8wk and 12wk injections? X
*Maxine*
Ps don't forget I'll be there at 7.15. Can't wait. Xxx
*29 JUNE 05:51*

Injections done and price is for non registered as not for breeding pet homes only
*29 JUNE 19:49*

Maxine date of birth is14th march


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

There is no such thing as a 'registered breeder.' Cats are registered. The GCCF breeder scheme is a list of breeders who agree to certain conditions and pay an annual fee. Many excellent breeders are not in the scheme and some awful breeders are!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Re vaccines, GCCF strongly recommend kittens don't go to new homes before a full vaccination course, but kittens are allowed to go to new homes at 9 weeks without vaccinations if it's agreed in writing between breeder and buyer at the time of sale. 

As others have said, ask for the CSSR numbers of both parents, so you can register your kitten. You are entitled to have them or a mating certificate. 

Not being on the GCCF Breeder Scheme unfortunately means nothing, many, many breeders aren't on it but that doesn't mean that they're dodgy.

GCCF office should tell you if the cats are active or non-active, as long as you give them the names of the cats and pose it as a "is x cat active registered", so all they have to say is yes or no. They can't answer more than that. 

Hope that clarifies


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Ragdoll lover said:


> This is the messages she was sending me. Well some of them.
> I will find it.
> 
> 
> ...


(Her)
Hi Maxine kitty's we're all checked and fine one was on small side but soon caught up ... u need to get away from border vets very rude she has been with u couple of weeks now so that's like vet saying u haven't been feeding her ...send me a pic of her Maxine to see this under weight kitty
(Me)
no what she is saying is at the galaden vets her weight was far too low for her age, since then she has doubled in weight, but she said she should be much heavier than that at first injections. And now the knock on is she is very underweight for her 16 weeks. And that she is going to have terrible health problems. This wasn't even a border vet, they are on holiday. X I think she is a locus. X
*Maxine*
Locum vet. X

(Her)
I don't think so u get small puppy's small kittens and they can grow into big cats it's normal in my experience to have a smaller kitty in a litter u always have the bruiser and a smaller one... she must be against pedigrees and a cheerleader for cats protection... and her teeth are good as she only was given biscuits to keep them clean and sharp...

(Me)
carla at border vets is seeing me for an appointment next week, to give her a proper examination and then we are going to have a chat about what's happened. They put me in touch with a ragdoll breeder and she has asked me to get some info. is it gccf the parents are registered with ? She was querying why the kitten isn't registered for the price and small cats in this breed can have serious problems. have any previous kittens been an abnormal weight for 14 weeks? Was the vet worried at all about the weight and was the small one my cat BeCause she is half the weight she should be. Xx

(Her)
Maxine don't worry to much about it it's getting u stressed out ... vet checked all kitty's and examined them all healthy and lively ... may of been your one that was on small side but nothing worrying or life threatening all animals are different some smaller than others simba is a big boy and mishka and bambi ain't big for ragdolls they are petite ... yes gccf registration and everyone has there own preference to if they try the litter if kitty's was reg then they would be a lot dearer ... I didn't reg as they are for pet homes and the way I've always done it with my rag litters hence the price non reg ... i don't think going back to border vets is good idea they will just try to make lots of money from you ...if u have any concerns Maxine get to my vets and take her along get an opinion from someone who isn't judgmental about cat protection or border vets who scam u for money ... they are honest and friendly

(Me)
What weight are the mum and dad? I'll phone the other vets tomorrow and ask to speak to the vet who has seen the kittens. The ragdoll breeder is very concerned about the weight of her at 16 weeks. she is only 800g. She is involved with gccf so she asked for breed numbers/ your details etc for the cats as she is concerned about ethical breeding ,sick kittens etc. ( she isn't saying ur not, but she was talking about back yard breeding causing illness) so vonvarda yogibear is that the mum or is champion vonvarda the mum?

(Her)
Off course she would cat breeders are very stricked and in the cat world if u aren't in the cat society club they won't give u an active kitten that u can breed from ... they all in breed their cats to keep the lines and look and hate people who have them as pets and sell as I interferes with them but truth is kittens more healthier as not inter bred ... I'm not happy with this woman knowing anything about me and not happy at all the comments being made as they think they know it all I have bred dogs and cats long enough to have experience a lot of these top breeders sell kitty's and later develope problems because they aren't ethnical

(Her)
Maxine speak to my vet and take her along ... this is getting out of hand now if u are worried in anyway then return her but she is healthy
(Her)
Both parents are up to date with health checks and vaccinations simba and mishka are hereditary clear for one of the common health problems in ragdolls If there was any problems my cats would be unwell and rowan would have problems and marcel...u have seen mum and dad they are healthy and happy cats she will be fine too she is healthy same as her siblings they all were about the size when they were ready to go really annoys me how random people are so quick to judge and seem to know it all let me know how u get on at my vets x

(Me)
The vets seemed shocked this morning when I told them that I weighed her on sat 1st July and she was only 543 g, at border vets yesterday she was 800g so she has put on weight but the reaction was along the lines of that is a horrific low weight for 15 wks and 3 day old kitten. Said that its noted the kittens were underweight/undersize but you made no mention of that to me when I came to see her. I even said how small she was.

(Her)
A misunderstanding then as the vet didn't make an issue of as they were all round the same he commented they are small for age that was it and he happy with the rest of check up .... I'm not going to sell on an unwell kitten rowan and marcel are beautiful well bred cats and so is she maybe I have got dates muddled I don't now Maxine been that much happen here.....it's up to u what u want to do I happily take her back and rehome her

Sorry this is long. I just think she never actually answers me clearly.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Re vaccines, *GCCF strongly recommend* kittens don't go to new homes before a full vaccination course, but kittens are allowed to go to new homes at 9 weeks without vaccinations if it's agreed in writing between breeder and buyer at the time of sale.
> 
> As others have said, ask for the CSSR numbers of both parents, so you can register your kitten. You are entitled to have them or a mating certificate.
> 
> ...


It is no longer a recommendation. It has been a requirement since 2015.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> It is no longer a recommendation. It has been a requirement since 2015.


I beg to differ I'm afraid, as I rang the office about it not 2 months ago. Confirmed it with three different people in three different phone calls.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Ragdoll lover said:


> (Her)
> Hi Maxine kitty's we're all checked and fine one was on small side but soon caught up ... u need to get away from border vets very rude she has been with u couple of weeks now so that's like vet saying u haven't been feeding her ...send me a pic of her Maxine to see this under weight kitty
> (Me)
> no what she is saying is at the galaden vets her weight was far too low for her age, since then she has doubled in weight, but she said she should be much heavier than that at first injections. And now the knock on is she is very underweight for her 16 weeks. And that she is going to have terrible health problems. This wasn't even a border vet, they are on holiday. X I think she is a locus. X
> ...


Based on that exchange and her attitude towards other breeders, it seems quite clear to me that she is a byb with no intention at all of selling healthy, registered kittens.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

The attached is the June 2015 Council Meeting where it was made a requirement. *C2062.

*


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

QOTN said:


> Quote the rules at the 'breeder.' She must provide a mating certificate. If she refuses, contact the GCCF and inform them. She was also breaking the rules selling a kitten under 13 weeks old without an initial course of vaccinations completed at least a week before you collected her unless it was agreed in writing between you and her prior to the sale.


Gccf have told me to complain about her, problem is if she isn't registered what good will it do. They said go to trading standards and contact rspca and explain cat very small underweight, perhaps might be worth them visiting to check out the other animals being bred there.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Gccf have told me to complain about her, problem is if she isn't registered what good will it do. They said go to trading standards and contact rspca and explain cat very small underweight, perhaps might be worth them visiting to check out the other animals being bred there.


This is me asking her here.

am I able to register the kitten as pedigree once I get him, with his mum and dad being registered? Or is that not done.? Ps not sure if u got my last message but has the kitten had his 8wk and 12wk injections? X
*Maxine*
Ps don't forget I'll be there at 7.15. Can't wait. Xxx
*29 JUNE 05:51*

(Her)
Injections done and price is for non registered as not for breeding pet homes only


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Gccf have told me to complain about her, problem is if she isn't registered what good will it do. They said go to trading standards and contact rspca and explain cat very small underweight, perhaps might be worth them visiting to check out the other animals being bred there.


I am not sure it would be worthwhile from your point of view to make a formal complaint. The GCCF would wish it so they can take it further and possibly prevent other people being tricked as you have been.

My idea was to point out to her that you know the rules and try to get a mating certificate out of her, then register your kitten. Alternatively ask the breeder to register her on the non-active register and pay for it yourself if the £15 (approximately) is the problem.

Just to repeat what I said before. Breeders are not registered. Cats are registered.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

QOTN said:


> I am not sure it would be worthwhile from your point of view to make a formal complaint. The GCCF would wish it so they can take it further and possibly prevent other people being tricked as you have been.
> 
> My idea was to point out to her that you know the rules and try to get a mating certificate out of her, then register your kitten. Alternatively ask the breeder to register her on the non-active register and pay for it yourself if the £15 (approximately) is the problem.
> 
> Just to repeat what I said before. Breeders are not registered. Cats are registered.


Ah I see. Going to try that now. Thanks for your comments really appreciate it.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Ah I see. Going to try that now. Thanks for your comments really appreciate it.


Good luck.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Ah I see. Going to try that now. Thanks for your comments really appreciate it.





QOTN said:


> I am not sure it would be worthwhile from your point of view to make a formal complaint. The GCCF would wish it so they can take it further and possibly prevent other people being tricked as you have been.
> 
> My idea was to point out to her that you know the rules and try to get a mating certificate out of her, then register your kitten. Alternatively ask the breeder to register her on the non-active register and pay for it yourself if the £15 (approximately) is the problem.
> 
> Just to repeat what I said before. Breeders are not registered. Cats are registered.


Just messaged her as she doesn't seem to want to answer her phone. Quoted what you said. Wish me luck.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Just messaged her as she doesn't seem to want to answer her phone. Quoted what you said. Wish me luck.


Fingers crossed she sees sense.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

QOTN said:


> Fingers crossed she sees sense.


Ignored. Will give her until 2mrw.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> The attached is the June 2015 Council Meeting where it was made a requirement. *C2062.
> *


Perhaps highlight this to the GCCF office as they are giving out misinformation. I was very clearly told that 12 weeks is a recommendation, not a rule, and that kittens can be rehomed at 9 weeks pre-vaccines if agreed to by the buyer in writing at the time of sale. I was told this by three different people in three different phone calls as I thought it was odd so went back to clarify. This has been within the last two months.

@Ragdoll lover, best of luck! Think you've been overloaded with great information on this thread, I do hope you take it further and get an answer one way or another


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Ignored. Will give her until 2mrw.


I have been thinking about this and I can see so many possible snags. The parents of your girl may well be on the active register but could have been passed on to this 'breeder' who has not bothered to transfer them to her ownership. I don't think the GCCF could do anything about that.

I am not sure that even Trading Standards could take action if your girl was sold to you with a pedigree certificate even if it was not a certified pedigree. I cannot definitely say that is correct since I always kept to GCCF rules when I was breeding. Perhaps CAB or similar could help you with that information.

I still hope you will get some resolution of this. The 'breeder' may need time to decide what to do. With luck she will take the sensible course of action.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Perhaps highlight this to the GCCF office as they are giving out misinformation. I was very clearly told that 12 weeks is a recommendation, not a rule, and that kittens can be rehomed at 9 weeks pre-vaccines if agreed to by the buyer in writing at the time of sale. I was told this by three different people in three different phone calls as I thought it was odd so went back to clarify. This has been within the last two months.
> 
> @Ragdoll lover, best of luck! Think you've been overloaded with great information on this thread, I do hope you take it further and get an answer one way or another


12 weeks has not been relevant for many years. 13 weeks and at least one week after the initial course of vaccination has been completed was the recommendation prior to the rule change. The written agreement by both parties prior to sale of younger kittens was brought in to protect situations where this may be essential for some reason. I suspect that breeders selling young unvaccinated kittens do not bother with the written agreement but that is just a feeling on my part. I have no evidence for that.

I am afraid the office is not a reliable source of information. We know they know next to nothing about cats but I would have thought they would know what Council had decided. After all, they are involved in compiling agendas for the meetings but it seems I am too trusting. I do know it is very difficult to know what happens to information we send to the office. It seems to disappear without trace. At our recent AGM, a member said the office had given him a 2010 copy of our rules despite the fact they have been changed three times since that date and the office had been sent up to date copies at the appropriate time.


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## Lisa2701 (May 15, 2010)

What I find odd with all of this is, if you have two healthy, health checked parents and have a litter of ethically bred pedigree puppies or kittens then I don't understand why anyone would chose not to register them and charge less. At the end of the day breeding a good healthy litter of kittens/puppies from health checked parents isn't cheap between the health checks, quality food for both parents and kittens, and vet bills and so on you rack up quite a cost and that's not even taking into account the fee's for the stud if you don't own the sire which in itself is expensive (not sure if it works this way with kittens but you get my point). So why would you then sell the kittens/puppies at a reduced price just so as to not register them? Odd. It happens with puppies also, Im not criticising you at all Ragdoll lover, I bought two moggies and the person who bred them called when they were 5.5 weeks old and told me to take them now or she'd sell them to someone else. I took them even though I knew I shouldn't, I just couldn't bare the thought of what would happen to them if i didn't, plus I had become emotionally invested in them as I'd been getting up dates and pictures of them since they were only a couple of weeks old (I had no ideA at the time that kittens should be kept till 12-13 weeks old so I was expecting to get them at 8 weeks) so I am in no place to judge , I'm just saying that I don't understand why 'breeders' chose to do it the way your breeder has. Never made any sense to me.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Update on daphne: she has been weighed at vets and is now 1150 g which is a very good amount to put on in in 3 weeks.(she was 543 when I got her).
Update on the breeder: she is a tw*at. She is hurt that I'm accusing her of lying about the cats age. Every message she sends me amuses me more and more. So to try to curb my amusement I have reported her to sspca to have them go and check on the other animals she is "breeding" and then I made an online benefit fraud report against her(after all she should hide her tax credits renewal form when she is selling kittens and puppies for cash in hand) . Have just also put out some posts on fb advising people what has happened with daphne and suggested that they look elsewhere for animals. I now feel cleansed.


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## ewelsh (Jan 26, 2011)

Well done you for highlighting this so called breeder!


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

You should have been given a copy of the mating certificate anyway - _3f. If a kitten is sold unregistered, in addition to the pedigree (see Rule 10a), the seller shall supply a copy of the certificate of mating whether or not the seller is the registered owner of the sire. Any application to register the kitten at a later date must be accompanied by this certificate, if the application is made on paper, or a declaration that the mating certificate has been received if the application is made online. If either of the parents is not GCCF registered the seller must supply the necessary paperwork to allow the new owner to register the kitten with the GCCF. (Amended 27.10.10, 15.02.2017).
_
And as regards vaccinations etc, yes, it is a rule that they have to have had a full course of vaccination a week before they leave but the prior written agreement to leave earlier is still allowed - _ii. All kittens must be fully vaccinated against infectious enteritis (FPV), FHV and FCV ("cat flu") at least one week prior to sale and/or leaving for a new home unless it is agreed otherwise in writing and signed by both parties (Amended 17.06.2015)_


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

carolmanycats said:


> You should have been given a copy of the mating certificate anyway - _3f. If a kitten is sold unregistered, in addition to the pedigree (see Rule 10a), the seller shall supply a copy of the certificate of mating whether or not the seller is the registered owner of the sire. Any application to register the kitten at a later date must be accompanied by this certificate, if the application is made on paper, or a declaration that the mating certificate has been received if the application is made online. If either of the parents is not GCCF registered the seller must supply the necessary paperwork to allow the new owner to register the kitten with the GCCF. (Amended 27.10.10, 15.02.2017).
> _
> And as regards vaccinations etc, yes, it is a rule that they have to have had a full course of vaccination a week before they leave but the prior written agreement to leave earlier is still allowed - _ii. All kittens must be fully vaccinated against infectious enteritis (FPV), FHV and FCV ("cat flu") at least one week prior to sale and/or leaving for a new home unless it is agreed otherwise in writing and signed by both parties (Amended 17.06.2015)_


I'm sure the parents are either unregistered or not registered active, so a mating certificate will cut no ice with the GCCF.



Ragdoll lover said:


> Update on daphne: she has been weighed at vets and is now 1150 g which is a very good amount to put on in in 3 weeks.(she was 543 when I got her).


That sort of gain in that sort of time suggests to me she was underweight when you got her and had quite probably been ill at least to some degree.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> I'm sure the parents are either unregistered or not registered active, so a mating certificate will cut no ice with the GCCF..


I think the office confirmed the parents were on the active register.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I think the office confirmed the parents were on the active register.


They did? OOoh!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> They did? OOoh!


That is what made me wonder if the cats had been passed on to somebody without the papers to transfer them.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> That is what made me wonder if the cats had been passed on to somebody without the papers to transfer them.


Yes, if the breeder isn't the official owner of the girl she can't register the kittens. If she doesn't own the boy she can't supply a mating certificate. Wonder if he has a certificate of entirety?


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> They did? OOoh!


They did advise me that the numbers she gave me were numbers of registered breed


QOTN said:


> I think the office confirmed the parents were on the active register.


the office confirmed the numbers I gave them, but then how do I know she didn't just get a hold of numbers, there is no name or address on it.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> I'm sure the parents are either unregistered or not registered active, so a mating certificate will cut no ice with the GCCF.
> 
> That sort of gain in that sort of time suggests to me she was underweight when you got her and had quite probably been ill at least to some degree.


Neither vet could find anything wrong with her so can't be sure. My vet contacted a Local vet here who breeds ragdolls he has said if the kittens are acting normal then he estimates for size and weight 12 wks or small due to lack of nutrients from mum/poor care/poor diet. Time will tell. Who knows if the bitch was taking proper care of these kittens? Sspca can look into that.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> They did advise me that *the numbers she gave me were numbers of registered breed*.


Well that is something entirely different. Any registered cat has numbers. I thought the office told you they were registered Active.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

QOTN said:


> Well that is something entirely different. Any registered cat has numbers. I thought the office told you they were registered Active.


Sorry, to confirm she did say they were both registered on active list which was why she was saying to make a complaint. Which is why I can't understand why she doesn't register the kittens? But my point is how do you know those numbers are for those cats. The woman couldn't tell me anything other than that, said that she has to be careful and could only answer yes or no to a question so I had to be pretty specific with my questions.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Sorry, to confirm she did say they were both registered on active list which was why she was saying to make a complaint. Which is why I can't understand why she doesn't register the kittens? But my point is how do you know those numbers are for those cats. The woman couldn't tell me anything other than that, said that she has to be careful and could only answer yes or no to a question so I had to be pretty specific with my questions.


If GCCF ownership has not been transferred to the breeder, she cannot register the kittens. I think that is more likely although registration numbers obviously have to be included on mating certificates so I suppose they may be false. Some people even leave them on pedigrees they post online. Have you checked that the breed numbers are correct for the parents? (I think you saw both cats?)


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

QOTN said:


> Well that is something entirely different. Any registered cat has numbers. I thought the office told you they were registered Active.


This is her response when I asked about mating certificates etc. So in reality she has 2 cats that are registered to breed or not but is allowing them to breed, hence not being able to register the kittens. Just to clarify I don't think she loves the animals, she is doing it for the cash!

Maxine I'm not a breeder they are required to follow the gccf rules and do it how they do it everyone is different and do it differently they are my babies and family pets I'm quite shocked
I'm not a gccf breeder I mean the cat society club type breeders
Who do it for living and go to shows who have contracts
Not a reg breeding cat business I'm just a pet owner who loves her animals


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

QOTN said:


> If GCCF ownership has not been transferred to the breeder, she cannot register the kittens. I think that is more likely although registration numbers obviously have to be included on mating certificates so I suppose they may be false. Some people even leave them on pedigrees they post online. Have you checked that the breed numbers are correct for the parents? (I think you saw both cats?)


All she gave me were names of parents/grandparents with numbers beginning with cssr i think. So that is the only info I was able to give to the gccf. I did see both cats.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Ohh blimey, it just gets worse doesn't it! She's attempting to paint all GCCF breeders with a vile brush, I can assure you that no good breeder of any registry makes a living from any of their pets! Disgraceful woman.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Ragdoll lover said:


> All she gave me were names of parents/grandparents with numbers beginning with cssr i think. So that is the only info I was able to give to the gccf. I did see both cats.


Ahh so grandparents are registered but parents most likely not. Would explain her message to you about "nasty, money-grabbing GCCF breeders". 

Why more people don't early neuter kittens is beyond me :Banghead


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> Ahh so grandparents are registered but parents most likely not. Would explain her message to you about "nasty, money-grabbing GCCF breeders".
> 
> Why more people don't early neuter kittens is beyond me :Banghead


This paper has parents/grandparents/great grand parents. There are 4 generations on there. When I get home can I take a picture of it and put it on here? Or should I not do that? It's probably a worthless piece of paper anyway which she has made up to con me. I'm a fool. And yes she is a vile person. X


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Ragdoll lover said:


> This paper has parents/grandparents/great grand parents. There are 4 generations on there. When I get home can I take a picture of it and put it on here? Or should I not do that? It's probably a worthless piece of paper anyway which she has made up to con me. I'm a fool. And yes she is a vile person. X


If you only have the CSSR numbers of the grandparents then to my mind the most likely outcome is that the parents were sold as pets and she's not meant to be breeding from them. I don't know if you should post here, personally I think she should be named and shamed as the backyard breeder she clearly is but I know that's not for everyone.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> This paper has parents/grandparents/great grand parents. There are 4 generations on there. When I get home can I take a picture of it and put it on here? Or should I not do that? It's probably a worthless piece of paper anyway which she has made up to con me. I'm a fool. And yes she is a vile person. X


I can look at the pedigree if you send it to me by pm but I am not into Persians so will probably only be able to make general comments. Better not post on this forum.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

QOTN said:


> I can look at the pedigree if you send it to me by pm but I am not into Persians so will probably only be able to make general comments. Better not post on this forum.


How do I send you a pm? sorry im new to this forum.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Rufus15 said:


> If you only have the CSSR numbers of the grandparents then to my mind the most likely outcome is that the parents were sold as pets and she's not meant to be breeding from them. I don't know if you should post here, personally I think she should be named and shamed as the backyard breeder she clearly is but I know that's not for everyone.


Don't worry It only has the cats details on it, nothing about the idiot. Just didn't want to post fake or real pedigree numbers incase you know.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Ragdoll lover said:


> How do I send you a pm? sorry im new to this forum.


The envelope in the top right corner will give you 'start a new conversation' The previous format of the site had pms so we still call them that. Sorry.


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

[QUOTE="Maxine I'm not a breeder they are required to follow the gccf rules and do it how they do it everyone is different and do it differently they are my babies and family pets I'm quite shocked I'm not a gccf breeder I mean the cat society club type breeders Who do it for living and go to shows who have contracts Not a reg breeding cat business I'm just a pet owner who loves her animals[/QUOTE]

Yes, proper, reputable, breeders DO do it according to the rules, if she really WAS a "pet owner who loves her animals" and her cats really WERE her "babies and family pets" she'd have had them neutered and would not be making money out of breeding them, which she undoubtedly is as they are sold unregistered and without a full course of vaccinations etc !


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Sorry, to confirm she did say they were both registered on active list which was why she was saying to make a complaint. Which is why I can't understand why she doesn't register the kittens? But my point is how do you know those numbers are for those cats. The woman couldn't tell me anything other than that, said that she has to be careful and could only answer yes or no to a question so I had to be pretty specific with my questions.


I'm not sure what numbers you are talking about.

Breed numbers for Ragdolls are (e.g.) RAG n, RAG n 03, RAG n 04, with or without 21 on the end. The 03 and 04 codes have varying amounts of white, sorry no idea which is mitted and which is Bicolour. A 21 on the end indicates a tabby-point cat. The n would be an 'a' for blue, 'b' for chocolate and 'c' for lilac.

Registration numbers are probably along the lines of CS123456. A new system was introduced last year starting at 1,000,000 (they don't print the thousands separators).

You can only tell if the cats are active from the registration numbers, and to get those you would have to see the registration card.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

This is an example. The printed text on the cards has changed a bit but the crucial information and the layout hasn't. I've highlighted the registration number and breeding status in yellow.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> This is an example. The printed text on the cards has changed a bit but the crucial information and the layout hasn't. I've highlighted the registration number and breeding status in yellow.


I understand the pedigree contains registration numbers since CSSR was mentioned.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

QOTN said:


> I understand the pedigree contains registration numbers since CSSR was mentioned.


I've private messaged u the thing she gave me.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> This is an example. The printed text on the cards has changed a bit but the crucial information and the layout hasn't. I've highlighted the registration number and breeding status in yellow.


She is saying she isn't a breeder anyway. First telling me cats gccf reg then saying she isn't. I'm confused.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> This is an example. The printed text on the cards has changed a bit but the crucial information and the layout hasn't. I've highlighted the registration number and breeding status in yellow.


This is Tali's it should look exactly like this(it was in my desk drawer):


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ragdoll lover said:


> She is saying she isn't a breeder anyway. First telling me cats gccf reg then saying she isn't. I'm confused.


She's let her cats mate and that on it's own makes her a breeder in my view.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Smuge said:


> This is Tali's it should look exactly like this(it was in my desk drawer):


Yes that's a newer example of what the breeder provides, but when you transfer the kitten into your name as far as I remember what comes back is slightly different.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Yes that's a newer example of what the breeder provides, but when you transfer the kitten into your name as far as I remember what comes back is slightly different.


Oh sorry, this is the current ownership one










Virtually the same as the one you posted, they just moved some things around. They called it a "decorative certificate" I thought it would be a bit more fancy (and bigger!)


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

We know the kitten is not registered but the pedigree shows the parents' registration and breed numbers. The cats on the pedigree seem to be bona fide with well known prefixes so who knows how this 'breeder' acquired them unless she just acquired the pedigree.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Oh dear. So I put a post on Facebook warning people about this woman and the kittens etc, i have been inundated with people saying she sold them sick kittens and puppies. My post has only been up a couple of hours.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2017)

Ragdoll lover said:


> Oh dear. So I put a post on Facebook warning people about this woman and the kittens etc, i have been inundated with people saying she sold them sick kittens and puppies. My post has only been up a couple of hours.


Please be very careful with this, naming & shaming is an absolute minefield & could lead you open to libel charges.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

QOTN said:


> We know the kitten is not registered but the pedigree shows the parents' registration and breed numbers. The cats on the pedigree seem to be bona fide with well known prefixes so who knows how this 'breeder' acquired them unless she just acquired the pedigree.


I know of someone who buys pet Persian kittens, breeds from them then sells them on keeping whichever kittens she feels are right to breed on with and keeping the pedigree back to use again and again. She uses many fake names in order to buy kittens as her real name is now well known. She is also using someone else's registered prefix in order to legitimise herself, has a swanky website which tears Breeders and Registries apart etc. Yet people still buy her overpriced, unregistered kittens. It boggles the mind!!


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Franlow said:


> Please be very careful with this, naming & shaming is an absolute minefield & could lead you open to libel charges.


I've got proof of everything I've said and this has been my experience with her. Nothing is made up. She had the chance to sort it out in private and chose not to. It's on the Facebook page she advertised them on. If this is what it takes to stop her breeding then I'm fine with it.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Update on daphne. She now weighs 1784g, has completed her injections and is awaiting her appointment for spaying. She is a very happy little soul. My vets response to sspca was that either the kittens weren't wormed when they should have been or they aren't being fed properly. ( it's amazing what looking after a cat can do). Update on breeder; sspca tried to get entry she declined 3 times. (If you have nothing to hide) . They had to put a card through the door advising her to call them to arrange access. So in the end Ive given a statement so they can try to get a warrant to enter the property, they also gained statements from the original locum vet and the breeders vet. Managed to get in touch with someone else who purchased a kitten just after me, she has given them different paperwork for the pedigree even though the kittens have the same parents. Trading standards are looking into it now. I really do feel she is conning people into thinking the parents are the pedigree on the paperwork which we know for a fact they are not. 
What I do know: She is definitely a cat✔
She looks like a ragdoll✔ Is she? Debatable! 
I love her to pieces I really do ✔
The breeder is a low life piece of scum ✔ 
Can I just thank you all for your comments. Really helpful when I was feeling pretty crap about the whole thing.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Please keep us posted, and where are new photos?


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Please keep us posted, and where are new photos?


. Blurry but her tongue is out, so cute.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

22 weeks still a bit wee but she us getting there.


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## LJC675 (Apr 24, 2017)

Ragdoll lover said:


> . Blurry but her tongue is out, so cute.
> View attachment 321468


Oooh, I love tongues out, so cute


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

She looks very well.


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## Jam d (Jul 15, 2017)

Ragdoll lover said:


> hi, I've recently bought a ragdoll being described as full pedigree. Came with first injection flead wormed, parents reg but kittens not. The only piece of paper did gave me was a photocopy of ancestry of my kittens parents grandparents etc but no where does it have the breeders name on it or signature address etc. After taking the cat to my vet I've found out the cat only got her first inj but didn't get the 2nd one 3 weeks later, and my vet has said the cat is half the weight and size it should be 850g 16 weeks. However I've taken the cat to the breeder vet where she had checks and injections and they don't seem concerned by her size. Breeder has said she will take her back if I feel she's lied. Called gccf and the details for parents she has given are register but how do I know those details are fo her cats i.e. My cats parents


I absolutely love some of the special breeds but essentially it still comes down to a cat that ultimately you will love and be slave to!!


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

Jam d said:


> I absolutely love some of the special breeds but essentially it still comes down to a cat that ultimately you will love and be slave to!!


True. I'm her bitch already. Wouldn't have it any other way. Hope she stays healthy, no guarantees with any cat though. X


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> She looks very well.


Thanks she is getting there slow but sure. It's funny, it's almost like someone stretched her, she is going through a slightly lanky stage! X


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Out of interest, would you be prepared to PM me the pedigree names of her ancestors? I'm blind, so can't look at the pic of the ped, but with the prefixes/names, I may be able to help further as I could get in touch with breeders (if I know them) and find out a bit more about what's really going on.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

carly87 said:


> Out of interest, would you be prepared to PM me the pedigree names of her ancestors? I'm blind, so can't look at the pic of the ped, but with the prefixes/names, I may be able to help further as I could get in touch with breeders (if I know them) and find out a bit more about what's really going on.


The OP has already been in touch with the breeder of the cats on the alleged pedigree which unsurprisingly is a fake.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

carly87 said:


> Out of interest, would you be prepared to PM me the pedigree names of her ancestors? I'm blind, so can't look at the pic of the ped, but with the prefixes/names, I may be able to help further as I could get in touch with breeders (if I know them) and find out a bit more about what's really going on.


Yes indeed I have already contacted the owner of the cats (a very kind person on here helped me with that) who is the breeder of ragdolls and both the cats named as parents to my kitten are alive and well in the breeders home as we speak, so she is fraudulently using the pedigree. The official breeder has the scumbags details if she wants to contact her about it but I'm not sure it's worth her while. X


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'd take this lady to trading standards. You have enough proof to do so if the original breeder will give you something in writing to confirm that she owns the parents.


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

carly87 said:


> I'd take this lady to trading standards. You have enough proof to do so if the original breeder will give you something in writing to confirm that she owns the parents.


Already have an email from the breeder who owns the parents confirming that my kittens parents can't possibly be on the paperwork. All emails between me and genuine breeder and private messages between me and scumbag breeder have been given to trading standards. Hope I get the bitch. So far I've managed to track down 1 other person who purchased a kitten and she has given them different paperwork again with not enough detail on it, so I think it's fake aswell. X


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ragdoll lover said:


> So far I've managed to track down 1 other person who purchased a kitten and she has given them different paperwork again with not enough detail on it, so I think it's fake aswell


Good you found someone else with a kitten from her. But even if there was apparently enough detail I'm sure it would be fake as well. BTW there is now a sticky about what papers should consist of:

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/pedigree-papers.454267/


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## Ragdoll lover (Jul 10, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Good you found someone else with a kitten from her. But even if there was apparently enough detail I'm sure it would be fake as well. BTW there is now a sticky about what papers should consist of:
> 
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/pedigree-papers.454267/


I saw the sticky! It's very good. every time I know she is selling kittens I'm going to comment from my sons Facebook telling people what the paperwork should look like. I will text the purchaser and ask for the prefix name things, or see if she will accept me on fb and send photo of what she got.


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

Hi I am asking for your advice too. I am a 1st time ragdoll owner and although I done a lot of research online before buying my 2 ragdoll kittens who I got from what is known on here as backyard breeders but there were no registered breeders near me and I hardly ever seen an advert anywhere near me when I was looking. I ended up paying £900 for each kitten and it took a long time to get any for sale near me anyway. They have both given me the family history but none of the kittens have been registered. I have a male and a female and all my family have advised me I should let the female have at least her 1st litter so I guess I will be a backyard breeder too but if demand outstrips supply then what are people supposed to do. I live in Sussex and there is not 1 single breeder on the registered list that I got from tica in the whole of Sussex!


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Please don't listen to friends and family, there is absolutely nothing to be gained from allowing your female to have a litter .Far better to have both her and your male neutered and enjoy them for what they are , pets.
There is no need to become a BYB you are then just making yourself as bad as those who bred your 2...I assume your 2 kittens are not related.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Felix Ritchie said:


> Hi I am asking for your advice too. I am a 1st time ragdoll owner and although I done a lot of research online before buying my 2 ragdoll kittens who I got from what is known on here as backyard breeders but there were no registered breeders near me and I hardly ever seen an advert anywhere near me when I was looking. I ended up paying £900 for each kitten and it took a long time to get any for sale near me anyway. They have both given me the family history but none of the kittens have been registered. I have a male and a female and all my family have advised me I should let the female have at least her 1st litter so I guess I will be a backyard breeder too but if demand outstrips supply then what are people supposed to do. I live in Sussex and there is not 1 single breeder on the registered list that I got from tica in the whole of Sussex!


Not good advce from your family, your female kitten will have no benfits from having a litter. The cats you have are unregistered so their kittens wll be unregistered too. Are you saying you want to breed them to fulfill the demand for Ragdoll kittens?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I agree. Pregnancy isn't risk free either to the cat or your pocket - one of my girls cost me almost £2k with her first litter. Some cats get mastitis, very nasty, and being left entire also gradually increases her risk of breast cancer. The boy will probably develop very smelly urine, and start spraying it around.

Also, two things that contribute to BYBs are potential owners in a rush, and potential owners not looking far enough from home. 

Also not sure why you only looked at TICA. There are Ragdoll breeders in the GCCF breeder scheme in Ipswich & Colchester.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Do not listen to your relatives. Your female does not need to have a litter and by breeding from unregistered and most likely unregisterable cats, whose background cannot be proven, you would become a back yard breeder as you very well know. Buying and selling of pets should have nothing to do with supply and demand.
Have your kittens neutered as soon as possible and forget about breeding. 
You say you had one breeder registered with Tica, did you also check breed clubs and the GCCF?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Felix Ritchie said:


> I have a male and a female and all my family have advised me I should let the female have at least her 1st litter


Please don't do this. There is no need for her to have a litter. Get them both neutered and it will be much better for them.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Please don't do this. There is no need for her to have a litter. Get them both neutered and it will be much better for them.


There are excellent stickys on why it's a very bad idea to breed for 'just one litter' - and, in my view, if producing anything other than registered pedigree kittens from appropriately health tested parents

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/just-one-litter.488385/
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/reasons-to-spay-neuters-your-pets.140588/


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Your kittens come from parents without health checks and why breed!

Not as easy as many think.


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## Felix Ritchie (Apr 4, 2021)

cheekyscrip said:


> Your kittens come from parents without health checks and why breed!
> 
> Not as easy as many think.


Even though I don't have papers for my kittens I do have papers for the grandparents. I am planning to breed my kittens but stick to the GCCF rules about getting them health checked and checked for HCM and PKD and I wouldn't let them leave their mum until they are 12/13 weeks. I want to do this because the demand for ragdolls far outstrips the supply and there isn't 1 single registered ragdoll breeder in the whole of Sussex. I know when I was looking for a ragdoll I never saw any adverts anywhere near me and it took me weeks before I did and then I ended up getting the last 1 from the litter then again a few weeks later and the advert had only been posted 3 hours earlier and again I got the last 1 in the litter. Even though I don't have papers for my kittens they are both supposed to be pure ragdolls and they look like a ragdoll and they both have the loving traits of a ragdoll in every way. Both back yard breeders as you call them said they were inundated with people looking for a ragdoll in this area. So I think that as long as you stick to the GCCF rules when breeding then I don't see any problem breeding my kittens and giving other people in the area the opportunity to own a ragdoll that they are so after and have probably been waiting weeks for. There's plenty of people out there that have a ragdoll with the papers but why should they be allowed to have the joy of owning a ragdoll and yet deprive others just because you don't have a piece of paper. I'm also going to have my kittens DNA tested to prove that they are pure ragdolls. I think that the GCCF should have a separate list where everything they ask has been done and a DNA test to prove that they are pure ragdolls but unfortunately somewhere along the line there has been an unfortunate break in the registering. I don't see any problem with that at all and the more responsible backyard breeders in this area to help meet a huge demand that isn't being met by registered breeders then the better as far as I am concerned. Maybe if the GCCF did have another registration process for ragdolls where for whatever reason there has been a break in the registration then the more chance of getting responsible backyard breeders who have even went 1 step further and had their ragdolls DNA tested.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Felix Ritchie said:


> <snip>
> I am planning to breed my kittens
> <snip>
> I want to do this because the demand for ragdolls far outstrips the supply and there isn't 1 single registered ragdoll breeder in the whole of Sussex.
> <snip>


I am speechless. That is one of the weakest reasons for breeding I've come across. You are doing nothing to address 'there isn't 1 single registered ragdoll breeder in the whole of Sussex'. However there will be one more BYB.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Felix Ritchie said:


> <snip>
> So I think that as long as you stick to the GCCF rules when breeding then I don't see any problem breeding my kittens and giving other people in the area the opportunity to own a ragdoll that they are so after and have probably been waiting weeks for. There's plenty of people out there that have a ragdoll with the papers but why should they be allowed to have the joy of owning a ragdoll and yet deprive others just because you don't have a piece of paper. I'm also going to have my kittens DNA tested to prove that they are pure ragdolls. I think that the GCCF should have a separate list where everything they ask has been done and a DNA test to prove that they are pure ragdolls but unfortunately somewhere along the line there has been an unfortunate break in the registering. I don't see any problem with that at all and the more responsible backyard breeders in this area to help meet a huge demand that isn't being met by registered breeders then the better as far as I am concerned. Maybe if the GCCF did have another registration process for ragdolls where for whatever reason there has been a break in the registration then the more chance of getting responsible backyard breeders who have even went 1 step further and had their ragdolls DNA tested.


DNA testing can't prove the breed of a cat.

Owning a cat, or a cat of a particular breed, isn't a right.

A 'responsible backyard breeder' is an oxymoron.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Felix Ritchie said:


> I live in Sussex and there is not 1 single breeder on the registered list that I got from tica in the whole of Sussex!


There is no such thing as a reputable BYB.
Unlike those whose posted above, I'm not going to sugar coat the pill. Why don't you just tell the truth and admit you bought two cats from a backyard breeder in order to become a backyard breeder yourself and make money. 
You say you'll follow GCCF rules, but you already have no intention of doing so. 
You claim there are no breeders near you, but there are in fact a number of reputable breeders of Ragdolls in your area, so you didn't look very hard. 
You say you are going to DNA test but will you also pay the several hundred pounds needed to get them both scanned on a yearly basis??
PS the big prices of last year are already startng to fall. I've seen BYBs reducing their prices to try and get rid of kittens that they've been left stuck with. People are looking to buy holidays now, not pets. Sorry about that.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Felix Ritchie said:


> Even though I don't have papers for my kittens I do have papers for the grandparents. I am planning to breed my kittens but stick to the GCCF rules about getting them health checked and checked for HCM and PKD and I wouldn't let them leave their mum until they are 12/13 weeks. I want to do this because the demand for ragdolls far outstrips the supply and there isn't 1 single registered ragdoll breeder in the whole of Sussex. I know when I was looking for a ragdoll I never saw any adverts anywhere near me and it took me weeks before I did and then I ended up getting the last 1 from the litter then again a few weeks later and the advert had only been posted 3 hours earlier and again I got the last 1 in the litter. Even though I don't have papers for my kittens they are both supposed to be pure ragdolls and they look like a ragdoll and they both have the loving traits of a ragdoll in every way. Both back yard breeders as you call them said they were inundated with people looking for a ragdoll in this area. So I think that as long as you stick to the GCCF rules when breeding then I don't see any problem breeding my kittens and giving other people in the area the opportunity to own a ragdoll that they are so after and have probably been waiting weeks for. There's plenty of people out there that have a ragdoll with the papers but why should they be allowed to have the joy of owning a ragdoll and yet deprive others just because you don't have a piece of paper. I'm also going to have my kittens DNA tested to prove that they are pure ragdolls. I think that the GCCF should have a separate list where everything they ask has been done and a DNA test to prove that they are pure ragdolls but unfortunately somewhere along the line there has been an unfortunate break in the registering. I don't see any problem with that at all and the more responsible backyard breeders in this area to help meet a huge demand that isn't being met by registered breeders then the better as far as I am concerned. Maybe if the GCCF did have another registration process for ragdolls where for whatever reason there has been a break in the registration then the more chance of getting responsible backyard breeders who have even went 1 step further and had their ragdolls DNA tested.


If you want to become a breeder, great but do everything right.
Registration is the minimum of what to expect.
Why go into it wrong when you've got all the info in front of you, just because others are breeding badly doesn't mean you have to.

I just have two pedigree pets, the breeder of my cats doesn't advertise on pet ads etc. They do have their own website.
When I went to view at 8 weeks old most of the litter were already on hold (no deposit was taken till they were viewed) before they'd even put info on their website. It was just from people getting in touch.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Arny said:


> <snip>
> I just have two pedigree pets, the breeder of my cats doesn't advertise on pet ads etc.
> <snip>


This year I've not had to advertise, had would-be buyers turning up just about every week.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Felix Ritchie said:


> unfortunately somewhere along the line there has been an unfortunate break in the registering


Caused by breeders not ESN their kittens, foolishly relying on non active registration to stop kitten owners breeding. 
Byb then sell more kittens entire and the cycle continues.

Neuter your cats and enjoy them as pets only.

Spend several years researching, attending shows, networking with reputable breeders, show in neuter class with a cat from a good breeder to learn the standard.
Then think about possibly breeding with everything in place.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Felix Ritchie said:


> So I think that as long as you stick to the GCCF rules when breeding then I don't see any problem breeding my kittens and giving other people in the area the opportunity to own a ragdoll that they are so after and have probably been waiting weeks for.


It has been stated above that there are registered ragdoll breeders either in or around Sussex but even if this were not the case, at the end of the day nobody needs to own a cat. You aren't doing anyone a favour by becoming a backyard breeder. You are not under any obligation to do this. If people can't find a breeder in their area then they can travel, luckily our island is not a large one. If travelling isn't an option and there are no responsible, registered breeders in their area then they can just...... not get a cat? Go for a different breed? Go for a rescue? 
People's greed to own a cute animal does not justify bringing unregistered, non-ethically bred kittens into a market that is EXTREMELY oversaturated with backyard breeders.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I wouldn’t need to advertise if we were to have kittens this year, I get contacted a couple of times a week. Usually I point sensible kitten enquiries to other breeders who I personally would have a cat from.

I am not breeding this year partly because I don’t have my £3k cushion to pay for unexpected vets bills, and yes you do need to dip into it. 2 years ago my semi elective in hours c-section £900, mastitis over a bank holiday weekend £250. My friends cat required a c-section in the middle of the night at an OOH vets £2700 2 years ago. what are you plans if the worst happens and your cat needs emergency vet care? 

What are your plans if mum can’t feed the kittens? Are you taking 4weeks off work to hand feed the kittens. Initially it’s every 1-2 hours, so by the time you have finished washing up and sterilising the bottles, you have about 20 minutes before starting again. That’s the other reason I am not breeding as I can’t take that amount of time off work and I can’t have my MIL to stay over to help me out. 

When you start going through a couple of bags of litter a week and huge amounts of food, far more than you could anticipate are you going to sell the kittens at 6 weeks old? Why do you think BYB pretend kittens are older than they are?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Closed this one now too as it seems advice is falling on deaf ears.


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