# Major incident in North London



## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Just saw on this on news, when is all this going to stop Police are calling it a major incident and the PM has been informed

Finsbury Park Mosque: 'Several hurt' as van hits pedestrians - BBC New
LIVE: 'Driver deliberately headed into crowd'


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I've just seen it too. Please, please, please, don't let this sort of retaliation against innocent people escalate. Our hearts go out to those involved.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Dreadful! 

This World has gone mad 

This must be classed as Terrorism too.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> This must be classed as Terrorism too.


Its looking that way, from what they are saying now. The police have arrested a man.



Lurcherlad said:


> This World has gone mad


Very true Lurcherlad, don't know what is happening .

Our thoughts are with everyone concerned.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dreadful incident.

This would be a type of terrorism but more than likely a retaliation attack from far right groups. Of course until a police statement is released everything on the news is speculation and theories.

Police have confirmed that only one man caused this incident and is in custody. He apparently said he has done his bit as he got arrested supposed witnesses have said. He is a white 48 year old man and is in hospital at the moment under police guard.

My heart goes out to the victims.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sounds like a hate attack.

We are going through very dark times in this country at the moment


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

This should absolutely be classed as a terrorist attack. Targeting innocent civilians for political or ideological reasons... he is a white terrorist targeting innocent Muslim civilians.

Shameful and terribly sad


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Counter Terrorism Command National Co-Ordinator Neil Basu has said in his official statement at 8:20am police officers in the area responded immediately and counter Terrorism police where on the scene within 10 minutes.

The man arrested has been charged with attempted murder. The police confirmed it is being treated as a terrorist attack. There are no other suspects as no one else was involved.

The man that died was receiving first aid on the pavement before the incident so his death may not be related to the incident.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

horrible


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Very sad. So glad imam stopped people from attacking the perpetrator.
At least we would know if he acted alone and if he is sane.

Dreadful. Retaliation only leads to escalation and that will end when nukies start flying putting stop to everything.

Madness.


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## sesmo (Mar 6, 2016)

Someone on my friends list on Facebook has posted a list of comments from a Daily Mail article about it. There are some sick individuals out there who agree with what the man did!!! What the heck has happened to this country???


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

sesmo said:


> Someone on my friends list on Facebook has posted a list of comments from a Daily Mail article about it. There are some sick individuals out there who agree with what the man did!!! What the heck has happened to this country???


Hmm and here I was wondering if journalists will be questioning when the catholic community will publicly condemn this act...
Unfortunately, this will not be the last incident like this...


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

stockwellcat said:


> Counter Terrorism Command National Co-Ordinator Neil Basu has said in his official statement at 8:20am police officers in the area responded immediately and counter Terrorism police where on the scene within 10 minutes.


How strange. One 'witness' said it took an hour for the police to get there.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

sesmo said:


> Someone on my friends list on Facebook has posted a list of comments from a Daily Mail article about it. There are some sick individuals out there who agree with what the man did!!! What the heck has happened to this country???


It's the Fail, you expect any better? Just seen this JK Rowling tweet shared on FB:


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Yes he was exaggerating things some what. It's all over the news about local police officers attending the scene within minutes and counter Terrorism police being on the scene within 10 minutes. The police released this information, so if you don't believe the police then take it up with them.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Yes he was exaggerating things some what. It's all over the news about local police officers attending the scene within minutes and counter Terrorism police being on the scene within 10 minutes. The police released this information, so if you don't believe the police then take it up with them.


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## Odin_cat (Mar 14, 2017)

Another tragedy, thoughts with everyone involved. A terrorist is a terrorist regardless of his skin colour.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Its just awful. Its seems to be one tragedy after another. Shame on those who are making this isn't a terrorist attack.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> This should absolutely be classed as a terrorist attack


I thought it had been?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Calvine said:


> I thought it had been?


For how long though? How soon until he is a 'lone wolf' or 'mentality unstable'?

Anders Brevik is nearly always referred to as a mass murderer there days, even though he is very much a terrorist.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> 'mentality unstable'?


TBH, @Nonnie, I reckon you have to be somewhat unhinged/mentally unstable to do something like this; or maybe on drugs? But still they are committing a terrorist act so it makes them terrorists, absolutely.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

All terrorists are mentally unhinged. They believe that a cause is more important than people. And killing people is an heroic thing if it's done for their cause. 

That sounds mentally unhinged to me.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Calvine said:


> TBH, @Nonnie, I reckon you have to be somewhat unhinged/mentally unstable to do something like this; or maybe on drugs? But still they are committing a terrorist act so it makes them terrorists, absolutely.


But the term 'mentality unstable' only seems to be bandied about when it comes to a white attacker.

I have no doubt that the religious fanatics are a few sarnies short in some way, but rarely are they referred to as anything other than 'terrorist'.

Double standards and segregation.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Oh sorry! I didn't read back far enough. 

You're right. The guy who drove that van is just as much a terrorist as the guys who drove the van on Westminster Bridge.

But it's the Daily Fail. Of course they are going to find any way they can to not say a white English man is a terrorist.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Saw this, this morning when I got up. 

I'm surprised it hasn't happened before, no one is safe anymore.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Theresa May met faith leaders inside Finsbury Park Mosque this afternoon after condemning a terrorist attack on Muslims there as 'every bit as sickening' as other assaults on Britain.

@Mirandashell: DM does refer to it as a ''terrorist attack''.^^


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Mirandashell said:


> And killing people is an heroic thing if it's done for their cause.


Certainly is...they call themselves ''freedom fighters''.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Just remember
An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind

All those who bring terror are evil, terrorism is 'bringing terror' ergo ALL terrorists are evil and are never justified, nor is the act justifiable, whatever your race, creed, or colour


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

I personally think its a head scratcher . What he did is evil and dispicable . But to label him a terrorist a bit of a hard pill to swallow .mad yes disgruntled yes deluded and mentally affected definatley . Is he in the mould of the evil sick dog who killed j o cox definatley . Maybe he snapped at whats going on in this country tht any normal person wouldn't even dream to do but maybe he read so much on the Internet that turned his soft head I don't know wht to think . All I no is he didnt have shit strapped to his waiste or spouting religious quotes or dressed with knives on his belt. But spouting he did his bit and poking faces at thoes unfortunate poeple is sick and twisted. No dought more will unfold in the coming hours . It's so sad


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Reported as saying he wanted to kill all Muslims and he did his bit. Sounds like political ends and belief in a group objective to me. So as terrorist as the rest imo.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

THE man suspected of carrying out the Finsbury Park terror attack has been named as a 47-year-old Darren Osborne.

DE also refers to it as a ''terror attack'' ^^^ quote above.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Creativecat said:


> I personally think its a head scratcher . What he did is evil and dispicable . But to label him a terrorist a bit of a hard pill to swallow .mad yes disgruntled yes deluded and mentally affected definatley . Is he in the mould of the evil sick dog who killed j o cox definatley . Maybe he snapped at whats going on in this country tht any normal person wouldn't even dream to do but maybe he read so much on the Internet that turned his soft head I don't know wht to think . All I no is he didnt have shit strapped to his waiste or spouting religious quotes or dressed with knives on his belt. But spouting he did his bit and poking faces at thoes unfortunate poeple is sick and twisted. No dought more will unfold in the coming hours . It's so sad


He brought terror to a person/community ergo he is a terrorist


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Creativecat said:


> I personally think its a head scratcher . What he did is evil and dispicable . But to label him a terrorist a bit of a hard pill to swallow .mad yes disgruntled yes deluded and mentally affected definatley . Is he in the mould of the evil sick dog who killed j o cox definatley . Maybe he snapped at whats going on in this country tht any normal person wouldn't even dream to do but maybe he read so much on the Internet that turned his soft head I don't know wht to think . All I no is he didnt have shit strapped to his waiste or spouting religious quotes or dressed with knives on his belt. But spouting he did his bit and poking faces at thoes unfortunate poeple is sick and twisted. No dought more will unfold in the coming hours . It's so sad


I think all of the people responsible for terrorist attacks are exactly how you've described; reading shit on the Internet, disgruntled, mentally affected and deluded. Their cause is completely irrelevant however; whether it's a Muslim extremist or a white British man, nothing can ever justify what they have done. Their cause is a load of absolute nonsense.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Calvine said:


> @Mirandashell: DM does refer to it as a ''terrorist attack''.^^


Was that in the article? I was going by the JKR tweet. Should have obeyed my own rule and checked first!


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

I find it ironic JKR tried to tack what happened last night to Nigel farage 
Wtf. Is she for real she shud stick to writing books


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Creativecat said:


> I personally think its a head scratcher . What he did is evil and dispicable . But to label him a terrorist a bit of a hard pill to swallow .mad yes disgruntled yes deluded and mentally affected definatley . Is he in the mould of the evil sick dog who killed j o cox definatley . Maybe he snapped at whats going on in this country tht any normal person wouldn't even dream to do but maybe he read so much on the Internet that turned his soft head I don't know wht to think . All I no is he didnt have shit strapped to his waiste or spouting religious quotes or dressed with knives on his belt. But spouting he did his bit and poking faces at thoes unfortunate poeple is sick and twisted. No dought more will unfold in the coming hours . It's so sad


He intended to rain terror on those muslim people.

It was nothing else but terrorism IMO

There seem to be a number of definitions for the word Terrorism.

This one seems to fit best, I think:

Quote
terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government*, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives" *
Unquote

Personally, irrespective of a perpetrator's mental state or motivation they should receive the utmost punishment.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Creativecat said:


> I find it ironic JKR tried to tack what happened last night to Nigel farage
> Wtf. Is she for real she shud stick to writing books


I think she has spent to much time in Harry Potter Land and lost the plot.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

It should def be treated as an act of terror but there is a difference between a lone man carrying out the act and someone who has been radicalised by a group of people. The second one is alot more worrying IMO.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Creativecat said:


> I find it ironic JKR tried to tack what happened last night to Nigel farage
> Wtf. Is she for real she shud stick to writing books


He may not be quite as outspoken as Katie Hopkins or Tommy Robinson but I'm afraid Farage is a hate monger.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> It should def be treated as an act of terror but there is a difference between a lone man carrying out the act and someone who has been radicalised by a group of people. The second one is alot more worrying IMO.


How do you know he hasn't been radicalised? If he lives in a predominantly white area and has friends who talk about (and I quote) 'all these Pakis taking our benefits and ruining our country, someone should do something about it', is that not also a form of radicalisation?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)




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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Mirandashell said:


> How do you know he hasn't been radicalised? If he lives in a predominantly white area and has friends who talk about (and I quote) 'all these Pakis taking our benefits and ruining our country, someone should do something about it', is that not also a form of radicalisation?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

What I find very sad at the moment is that had this person mowed down people whilst reciting some religious nonsense you get threads that reach several pages within the first 24 hours, you get countless people changing their profile pics in support, you get the "We stand united" speeches, you get people condemning a particular faith and you get preachers coming out to condemn the attack, and you get calls to find out where radicalization happened ....But because this dude attacked Muslims that were leaving evening prayer at a mosque...well this thread has struggled to reach two pages, no profile pic changes, no "we stand united" speeches and not one person standing up to say that this scumbag does not represent White British people...


Nope, we have people justifying his actions (not here), and we have people struggling to call the man a terrorist


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

And that right there is one of the reasons that young Muslims can be radicalised. That kind of racism just feeds into it. It's easy to convince someone that the cause is glorious and that all the others who don't think like them deserve to die when every day that someone is faced with constant low-level racism and indifference. When they are already angry and frustrated with how they are treated. Driving vans at people is an easy and spectacular way to express it. 

In just the same way that this man was convinced that his economic troubles, his lack of opportunity, his problems were caused by 'the Pakis'. Not the government, not the austerity politics, not the years of underfunding everything, no. That's all too nebulous. There's nothing to attack there. It's a lot easier to blame it on 'the Pakis'. 

Two different directions. Same result.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> What I find very sad at the moment is that had this person mowed down people whilst reciting some religious nonsense you get threads that reach several pages within the first 24 hours, you get countless people changing their profile pics in support, you get the "We stand united" speeches, you get people condemning a particular faith and you get preachers coming out to condemn the attack, and you get calls to find out where radicalization happened ....But because this dude attacked Muslims that were leaving evening prayer at a mosque...well this thread has struggled to reach two pages, no profile pic changes, no "we stand united" speeches and not one person standing up to say that this scumbag does not represent White British people...
> 
> Nope, we have people justifying his actions (not here), and we have people struggling to call the man a terrorist


Not sure what you've been reading or watching, but he was called a terrorist from the off and has been condemned by everyone from the PM down.

I guess you must be reading some extremist right wing websites and forums.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I think you need to reread Stormy's post cos you've missed her point entirely.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

You guess wrong, and well done for missing my point.


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

I think what he did is heinous there is no doubting that . Clearley two wrongs don't make a right . But in my eyes a terrorist has been tadicalised or inspired by a group or movement look at all the atrocoties 
Carried out globally by many groups from the kKK to hisbullah with many orhers. But it feels like some are trying not here but in other areas to equate and justify the islamic global terror movement such as ises with another that is a far right evil group as oh well there all equal well there not . In a clumsy way I'm saying 
There both evil and need to be addressed but I'm sure the far right 
Are not even in the same ball park as to whats gone on globally in Europe Asia . America. These last number of months . As for the Nigel farage instigating terror with his poster I find tosh . Maybe the guy was sick of seeing all the stabbings and shootings and running poeple over he snapped and retaliated . So sad and I totally disagree with any forms of hateful behaviour especially trying to kill innocent Muslim poeple is unforgivable on any level


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Creativecat said:


> But in my eyes a terrorist has been tadicalised or inspired by a group or movement


What YOU believe doesnt matter.

The definition of terrorist does:

'A person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.'

It doesnt have to be a group effort. Plus people self radicalise all the time.

Just look at how many on here are led by the thoughts, opinions and ignorant drivel posted by others.


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

I know what I think doesn't mean anything in the big scheme of things 
But I'm entitled to air what I think as I would expect others on here to do the same respectively . Maybe we all choose what we beleive in rightly or wrongley to beleive.,just sad all the miss information and fake news that doesn't get checked . But passed on as fact and there was was alot of it flying abt the other evening .


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I think I get what you are saying, CC, but terrorism itself has changed a lot in the last few years. Terrorists have realised that you don't need to make bombs and false papers and form large groups. All you have to do is drive a van at people and then leap out screaming whatever slogan means the most to you. 

The point is, if we are going to call it terrorism when a Muslim does it, we have to call it terrorism when a non-Muslim does it.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Creativecat said:


> I know what I think doesn't mean anything in the big scheme of things
> But I'm entitled to air what I think as I would expect others on here to do the same respectively . Maybe we all choose what we beleive in rightly or wrongley to beleive.,just sad all the miss information and fake news that doesn't get checked . But passed on as fact and there was was alot of it flying abt the other evening .


So you are entitled to air your opinion, but JKR should 'stick to writing books'?

What a surprise, double standards.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> You guess wrong, and well done for missing my point.


Difficult to miss the point you are making. You are accusing people of not caring so much because it's white man attacking Muslims.

As I said, you've obviously been reading non-mainstream media. If you've read any of national papers or listened/watched any mainstream broadcasters you'd see you are wrong.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Swing and a miss!


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

Mirandashell said:


> I think I get what you are saying, CC, but terrorism itself has changed a lot in the last few years. Terrorists have realised that you don't need to make bombs and false papers and form large groups. All you have to do is drive a van at people and then leap out screaming whatever slogan means the most to you.
> 
> The point is, if we are going to call it terrorism when a Muslim does it, we have to call it terrorism when a non-Muslim does it.


I understand what ur saying also grudgingly :0)


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)




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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> It should def be treated as an act of terror but there is a difference between a lone man carrying out the act and someone who has been radicalised by a group of people. The second one is alot more worrying IMO.





Mirandashell said:


> How do you know he hasn't been radicalised? If he lives in a predominantly white area and has friends who talk about (and I quote) 'all these Pakis taking our benefits and ruining our country, someone should do something about it', is that not also a form of radicalisation?


I dont know he wasnt radicalised, and neither do you. My point is that one lone lunatic is less concerning then the thought of an organized group planning terror attacks and preying on disgruntled impressionable people. This is true of any race or religion.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> I dont know he wasnt radicalised, and neither do you. My point is that one lone lunatic is less concerning then the thought of an organized group planning terror attacks and preying on disgruntled impressionable people. This is true of any race or religion.


Can you explain why that is? The end result is just the same. People die.

And you don't know if this guy is a lone lunatic. I understand if it's what you would prefer to believe. But unfortunately it may not be so. There's plenty of white people spreading hate and preying on the impressionable. You just don't jump to that conclusion the same way you do when it's a Muslim man driving the van.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

I imagine ISIS just love to read that something like this has happened; it gives them something to retaliate against. They must also love to see the division it creates in what is (supposedly) a 'multicultural society'. In short, this sort of episode is playing straight into ISIS' hands.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> Was that in the article? I was going by the JKR tweet. Should have obeyed my own rule and checked first!





Creativecat said:


> I find it ironic JKR tried to tack what happened last night to Nigel farage
> Wtf. Is she for real she shud stick to writing books





suewhite said:


> I think she has spent to much time in Harry Potter Land and lost the plot.


I think the point she was making was more that if the incident had involved a muslim running down, say, bankers leaving the stock exchange, the word 'terror' or 'terrorist' would have been prominent in the DM headline, and the article would be speculating who had brainwashed him into doing the deed.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> Swing and a miss!


You must be referring to a different post than I am.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

I think i care more because he is English and white, not because i support him or anything like that but because i am scared this will start a tit for tat trend, we have enough killing going on without everyone joining in....hope that makes sense.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Mirandashell said:


> Swing and a miss!


Translation required please?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> And you don't know if this guy is a lone lunatic. I understand if it's what you would prefer to believe.





catz4m8z said:


> *I dont know* he wasnt radicalised, and neither do you


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Calvine said:


> I imagine ISIS just love to read that something like this has happened; it gives them something to retaliate against. They must also love to see the division it creates in what is (supposedly) a 'multicultural society'. In short, this sort of episode is playing straight into ISIS' hands.


Exactly, except it's not just that it gives them something to retaliate against, but it means we're reacting how they want and falling in line with their plan. In simple terms, their whole ultimate aim is to bring about their 'muslim versus infidel' version of armageddon and bring the whole earth under united muslim rule. So they don't care if it's muslimgs killing non-muslims or vice versa, anything that gets the situation escalated is fine by them. it;s why they try and take credit for all terrorist acts, even if they obviously had nothing to do with them.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> What I find very sad at the moment is that had this person mowed down people whilst reciting some religious nonsense you get threads that reach several pages within the first 24 hours, you get countless people changing their profile pics in support, you get the "We stand united" speeches, you get people condemning a particular faith and you get preachers coming out to condemn the attack, and you get calls to find out where radicalization happened ....But because this dude attacked Muslims that were leaving evening prayer at a mosque...well this thread has struggled to reach two pages, no profile pic changes, no "we stand united" speeches and not one person standing up to say that this scumbag does not represent White British people...
> 
> Nope, we have people justifying his actions (not here), and we have people struggling to call the man a terrorist


It's because most people are very, very insular and only get upset about things that directly affect them. So if you are a white Brit, a terror attack in London or Manchester that kills other white Brits demands pages of social media posts. If it only affects people of a different faith or nationality to yourself. Makes me so cross.

I never post on FB about these things because I'd either have to be posting every 10 minutes or I'd have to make decisions on which ones to ignore - which is like saying that some lives matter less than others because they lived further away from me. Though I might be breaking my rule on this one because this guy lives 5 minutes away from my family and it feels like he's contaminated the whole area by his actions.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Jesthar said:


> Exactly, except it's not just that it gives them something to retaliate against, but it means we're reacting how they want and falling in line with their plan. In simple terms, their whole ultimate aim is to bring about their 'muslim versus infidel' version of armageddon and bring the whole earth under united muslim rule. So they don't care if it's muslimgs killing non-muslims or vice versa, anything that gets the situation escalated is fine by them. it;s why they try and take credit for all terrorist acts, even if they obviously had nothing to do with them.


Yes: you only have to look at how divided the posters on this thread are...and PF represents a t minute % of the UK population. it is all part of the greater scheme of things, as you say.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Mirandashell said:


> The point is, if we are going to call it terrorism when a Muslim does it, we have to call it terrorism when a non-Muslim does it.


I checked on line yesterday and DM and DE both did. Independent did. Theresa May did.

And as to whether he himself was 'radicalised' in any way, you have to imagine that if his four children are old enough they will have heard quite enough from him to influence them. I won't say radicalise as that remains to be seen.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Dr Pepper said:


> Difficult to miss the point you are making. You are accusing people of not caring so much because it's white man attacking Muslims.
> 
> As I said, you've obviously been reading non-mainstream media. If you've read any of national papers or listened/watched any mainstream broadcasters you'd see you are wrong.


If you reread the post, you'll see it's talking about social media posts and profile pic changes. And if my contacts are representative of the whole of the UK in any way, I have to agree with @StormyThai . Within hours of the Manchester attack and the last two in London, nearly all my FB contacts had changed their profile pics to one showing a message of sympathy for the affected city. So far, no one has changed their profile pic for this incident and only three people have posted a message of support for the people injured or bereaved.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Calvine said:


> Translation required please?


It's a baseball reference.

I'm basically saying that Dr Pepper still hasn't got the point of Stormy's post. But, in his usual way, he's insisting that she is wrong and he is right. Even though she's the one who wrote the post.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Calvine said:


> Translation required please?


Baseball term for a batter failing to hit a legitimate delivery and getting a strike.

Colloquially used to indicate someone has missed the point or guessed the answer to something incorrectly.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Calvine said:


> I checked on line yesterday and DM and DE both did. Independent did. Theresa May did.
> 
> And as to whether he himself was 'radicalised' in any way, you have to imagine that if his four children are old enough they will have heard quite enough from him to influence them. I won't say radicalise as that remains to be seen.


It's more social media where people are trying to deny he's a terrorist or trying to justify his actions. And that's what Stormy was referring in her post. And as Cuddle said, there's been a totally different reaction on social media to when white people get mowed down.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Jesthar said:


> Baseball term for a batter failing to hit a legitimate delivery and getting a strike.
> 
> Colloquially used to indicate someone has missed the point or guessed the answer to something incorrectly.


Thank you!

I must watch too much American tv. I thought it was a well-known saying!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Mirandashell said:


> I must watch too much American tv.


Yes!



Mirandashell said:


> I thought it was a well-known saying!


No!


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

My apologies! But at least you've learnt something today. That's always good!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> It's more social media where people are trying to deny he's a terrorist or trying to justify his actions. And that's what Stormy was referring in her post. And as Cuddle said, there's been a totally different reaction on social media to when white people get mowed down.


Trouble is there is no group to stand up against in this case, it was one fool acting on his own with no affiliation to a cause or group. We know there's at least 20,000 who support ISIS in the UK, it's those people we show solidarity against.

To suggest people care less is frankly insulting.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Rona, are you saying that I misread Cat's post? If so, I apologise to Cat.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Trouble is there is no group to stand up against in this case. We know there's at least 20,000 who support ISIS in the UK, it's those people we show solidarity against.
> 
> To suggest people care less is frankly insulting.


You may find it insulting but unfortunately it's true for a lot of people. As Cuddlemonster has already pointed out, people do care more when a tragedy effects people like them. And less when it doesn't.

Do you have any reliable evidence for that figure you just quoted?


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Mirandashell said:


> Can you explain why that is? The end result is just the same. People die.
> 
> And you don't know if this guy is a lone lunatic. I understand if it's what you would prefer to believe. But unfortunately it may not be so. There's plenty of white people spreading hate and preying on the impressionable. You just don't jump to that conclusion the same way you do when it's a Muslim man driving the van.


The difference is that one man working alone will not potentially lead to more deaths whereas someone involved in a group could. Personally I _do_ jump to that conclusion as its exactly the same thing I was hoping when I heard about the London bridge incident.
Most public workers these days have training in recognizing people who are at risk of radicalization and usually its people who feel that they arent being heard and are isolated. Id like to see more effort put into supporting people so they dont feel like this kind of thing is their only option.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Thanks Catz! I think I misunderstood your post originally.

And I totally agree with your last point. That kind of effort is needed desperately. But it costs a lot of time and money so is unlikely to happen.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> Do you have any reliable evidence for that figure you just quoted?


Absolutely, it's not a made up figure but 100% correct. I wouldn't have quoted it otherwise.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Care to share the evidence with us?


----------



## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

Was it just me or did it seem odd that the neighbour they spoke to seemed as Muslim as a double decker bus . Oh she married into tht way of life . I remember watching a documentry a few years back where these young impressionable american girls where turning there Christian beliefs into a Muslim way of life . I'm no way saying that's wrong but just seemed odd like it was the latest craze to connect with when clearley they looked so at odds with wht they was trying to project . Even the women teaching them the Islam culture and beliefs looked uncomfortable .
I think the funniest thing I saw was a post somewhere said why are some British Muslims white have ginger hair and live on a sink estate


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Mirandashell said:


> You may find it insulting but unfortunately it's true for a lot of people. As Cuddlemonster has already pointed out, people do care more when a tragedy effects people like them. And less when it doesn't.


Yes...if there's an atrocity in somewhere like Malawi or Mali, it won't make headlines in a UK paper for more than a few hours, if that. But then I imagine it's the same in reverse. Something that happens in (let's say, for example! ) Finsbury, won't make headlines in the Ghana Guardian or the Togo Times. An attack on the Jewish community will receive extra coverage by a Jewish publication...so it goes.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I expect so. But there's a slight difference in that the Muslims mown down by the van live here. They are part of British society just as much as the people mown down on London Bridge. They aren't miles away in a different country, they are right here. And still they don't get supported on social media the way white people do.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

CC, I don't even know where to begin with the unconcious racism in that post.....


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> Care to share the evidence with us?


Not really, least of all because it's difficult to copy and paste links on a mobile. From memory though it's 20,000 on the MI5 suspect list and 3,000 on their watchlist. Google something along those lines and I'm sure you'll find all the evidence you require .


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

So that's a no, then? I thought you might use the excuse of a phone.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Not really, least of all because it's difficult to copy and paste links on a mobile. From memory though it's 20,000 on the MI5 suspect list and 3,000 on their watchlist. Google something along those lines and I'm sure you'll find all the evidence you require


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ubjects-interest-scale-terror-threat-emerges/

@Dr Pepper: Is this what you saw?


----------



## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

Mirandashell said:


> CC, I don't even know where to begin with the unconcious racism in that post.....


Plz explain the unconsious racism plz


----------



## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

Mirandashell said:


> So that's a no, then? I thought you might use the excuse of a phone.


Why do you constantly battle with poeple that state things that u can't get ur head round .,iv heared them statistics also but I couldn't prove a link or evidence first hand .
Tht doesn't make it incorrect information :0)


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

On that note I am out...


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Creativecat said:


> Why do you constantly battle with poeple that state things that u can't get ur head round .,iv heared them statistics also but I couldn't prove a link or evidence first hand .
> Tht doesn't make it incorrect information :0)


Doesnt make it correct either.

Havent you just commented about fake news?

Statistics need to be backed up; and by something other than a news article.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Mirandashell said:


> So that's a no, then? I thought you might use the excuse of a phone.


@Creativecat: I understood this was directed at Dr Pepper and not at you. Maybe I got that wrong...


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

> Tht doesn't make it incorrect information


True, but it also doesn't guarantee that it's not a load of old horse-apples. I ask for evidence of claims made for several reasons. One, to check it's not fake news. As you yourself said, CC, there's a lot of that about.

Two, I'm philosophically trained and scientifically motivated. I take no claim at face value until I have seen evidence for it. And by 'evidence' I don't mean a right-wing newspaper. Or any newspaper really. If is from a newspaper I want to know what their source is.

Three, people tend to believe what fits in with their own prejudices and viewpoint. I try not to do that. I try to see both sides of the question. And that's why I ask for evidence.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Calvine said:


> @Creativecat: I understood this was directed at Dr Pepper and not at you. Maybe I got that wrong...


No you didn't. You had it absolutely right. The Doctor tends to use his phone as an excuse quite often.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> So that's a no, then? I thought you might use the excuse of a phone.


Well I'm not James bloody Bond so have no direct access to MI5 and have to by news reports on things like this.



Calvine said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ubjects-interest-scale-terror-threat-emerges/
> 
> @Dr Pepper: Is this what you saw?


Not that particular one but yes that story, and variations of it are widely reported in the papers and on TV.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

@Dr Pepper So you feel fine throwing around numbers that have no evidence to back them up and then get annoyed when called on it.

Hmm. Fair enough. At least now we all know how seriously to take your claims. Thank you.


----------



## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

Nonnie said:


> Doesnt make it correct either.
> 
> Havent you just commented about fake news?
> 
> Statistics need to be backed up; and by something other than a news article.


I agree fake news but when you watch news night or a news artical on tv or a sound. Bite from some government agency . be it a intelligenve official or a prolific source I tend to lean more to believing them than some ramblings down the pub to be fair ;0)


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

@Creativecat Governments also produce propaganda. And like I said, most people do believe stuff that fits in with their own ideas. Especially when it looks official.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> @Dr Pepper So you feel fine throwing around numbers that have no evidence to back them up and then get annoyed when called on it.
> 
> Hmm. Fair enough. At least now we all know how seriously to take your claims. Thank you.


Ok, so it's widely reported in the press and discussed on TV news programs. So I'll believe it. Unless you can you show me evidence they were all either lying or mislead? Until then all evidence and reports show there are 20,000 plus people on the MI5 terrorist watchlist.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

@DrPepper Like I said, people believe the news that fits in with their own world view. It's no surprise you'd believe those numbers are '100%' accurate on no evidence at all, TBH.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Hate crime (also known as bias crime) is a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society that is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender's bias against a race, religion, ethnic or national origin, sexual orientation, or disability.
Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, to further political or social objectives.
The FBI, so an American description. There's no big official, black and white separation, just shades of grey.

Put very simply a hate crime targets specific people, or their property, buildings etc, terrorism doesn't care who they kill or destroy for the cause. People can manage both at the same time.

It's very sad. I wish it would all stop. 

If I'm honest, given recent events, I started out relieved that it seemed to be just one crazy, that more people weren't killed and that it wasn't yet another wide scale attack that the authorities had missed. Nothing to do with who the victims of the attack were, or who did it. Crazies attack people for all kinds of reasons, it's not always easy to anticipate and prevent. 

Before recent events, I would have been utterly horrified that someone could deliberately drive a vehicle into people, in our supposedly civilised multi cultural society, now I'm just as horrified that I've almost become resigned to it.

I hope that the injured make full recovery and there are no more attacks. It's utterly reprehensible.


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

My heads all over the place . I need to lie down :Hilarious


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Creativecat said:


> My heads all over the place . I need to lie down :Hilarious


Come off it, you can just say that. Give us some proof you need a lie down.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Elles said:


> Before recent events, I would have been utterly horrified that someone could deliberately drive a vehicle into people, in our supposedly civilised multi cultural society, now I'm just as horrified that I've almost become resigned to it.


I remember that feeling in the late 70s and the 80s about the IRA. Hearing about so many bombs what felt like every few months. Being constantly outraged isn't something anyone can keep up for long. It's too bloody exhausting.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> Give us some proof you need a lie down.


Photos of you in bed or we won't believe you.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> @DrPepper Like I said, people believe the news that fits in with their own world view. It's no surprise you'd believe those numbers are '100%' accurate on no evidence at all, TBH.


I also believe man landed on the moon, haven't been able to get up there and check the flag is actually there though.

So your theory is, if you don't like the news you simply choose to disbelief it. Brilliant.


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

A famous quote here
1 person dead is a tragedy 
1000 people dead is a statistic. 
It's so sad but It does de sensatize
You :0(


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> I also believe man landed on the moon, haven't been able to get up there and check the flag is actually there though.
> 
> So your theory is, if you don't like the news you simply choose to disbelief it. Brilliant.


Swing and a miss!


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> Swing and a miss!


Sorry you are right. I forgot that you don't believe anything until you've seen evidence. So you watch the news, toddle off to check it all out, and if there is no evidence you disbelief it. Phaa, doesn't everybody do that.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Creativecat said:


> A famous quote here
> 1 person dead is a tragedy
> 1000 people dead is a statistic.
> It's so sad but It does de sensatize
> You :0(


Well, we have had four awful incidents in as many months (not including the fire) so you are bound to develop a certain immunity and a feeling of relief that only one died this time...bad enough, of course, for all involved but not as bad as if it had been 31. The fire, at least, was not a deliberate attack but shameful in that it really should not have happened.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> there are 20,000 plus people on the MI5 terrorist watchlist.


Spectator quoted the same numbers...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Ok, so it's widely reported in the press and discussed on TV news programs. So I'll believe it. Unless you can you show me evidence they were all either lying or mislead? Until then all evidence and reports show there are 20,000 plus people on the MI5 terrorist watchlist.


Don't care how long the list is there shouldn't be one, time the government hardened up and either deported or confined. As for the london mosque attacker, probably someone who felt they had a reason, we don't know what spured him on, and probably never will. But sadly I fear this is only the beginning.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Calvine said:


> Spectator quoted the same numbers...


Lots of places did as I recall.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Calvine said:


> Well, we have had four awful incidents in as many months (not including the fire) so you are bound to develop a certain immunity and a feeling of relief that only one died this time...bad enough, of course, for all involved but not as bad as if it had been 31. The fire, at least, was not a deliberate attack but shameful in that it really should not have happened.


Are they still reporting that the person that sadly died was already receiving first aid from members of the public before the nutjob in the van - sorry, terrorist - even got there?


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

Had my nap lol
Hope n know someone will correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt all the suspects in the Manchester bomb released because t hey had all played some part in the purchasing of bits for the bomb but couldn't over all join the dots to charge them if thts right that's shocking . Or is this fake news . It's hard to determine whts true and what isn't 
I fear


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

MilleD said:


> Lots of places did as I recall.


They do tend to quote each other a fair bit.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Mirandashell said:


> They do tend to quote each other a fair bit.


Right. Ok.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I don't know when it became a requisite to cry and wail and stamp ones feet to be a caring person. Most of those doing such seem to be either those on the periphery of these disasters or people with some personal agenda.
All of those without fail that I have seen who are the true victims and those that are truly helping have had a quiet dignity.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

@rona Are you referring to anyone in particular?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MilleD said:


> Are they still reporting that the person that sadly died was already receiving first aid from members of the public before the nutjob in the van - sorry, terrorist - even got there?


Yes, today's _Evening Standard_ says he had collapsed in the street near his home. Friends were 'taking his pulse and trying to help him' when the van hit them. He was 51.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

rona said:


> All of those without fail that I have seen who are the true victims and those that are truly helping have had a quiet dignity.


Yes, remember the MP, Tobias Ellwood who tried to resuscitate the policeman stabbed in the Westminster attack: he just got on and did what he thought was genuinely needed to help. No weeping, wailing or grief-stricken gestures for the photographers. I cannot describe my admiration for the way he conducted himself and made so little comment afterwards. Just said he did what he could and left it at that. A real hero IMO, genuine and sincere. And guess what...he's a Conservative!!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Creativecat said:


> Had my nap lol


Do you borrow your cat's night-cap when you go to bed? Must say that cat has a very cute face.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Mirandashell said:


> @rona Are you referring to anyone in particular?


No just a general observation. I saw a couple on tv this morning that managed to get out alive, and I've seen a few survivors who have lost love ones and what comes across from all that I've seen is how quiet and controlled they are, a couple possibly from the shock but some are so eloquent too

It does seem on here and in the press that to be measured in how much you care or are affected is how much fuss you make.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

@rona Oh I see. Well, the media do love a fuss.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

rona said:


> No just a general observation. I saw a couple on tv this morning that managed to get out alive, and I've seen a few survivors who have lost love ones and what comes across from all that I've seen is how quiet and controlled they are, a couple possibly from the shock but some are so eloquent too
> 
> It does seem on here and in the press that to be measured in how much you care or are affected is how much fuss you make.


We had a major incident in our town a while back, it was widely reported and a big deal at the time. The townsfolk, victims and their families just got on with life, none of the "shock, horror and distress" that was being reported. In times of "crisis" I think the natural human default is to get back to normality and routine as quickly as possible.

Mind you this was before Facebook and Twitter where you get "likes" for being the most traumatised and caring.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Here's a handy guide for the right wing media & their ilk.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> I don't know when it became a requisite to cry and wail and stamp ones feet to be a caring person. Most of those doing such seem to be either those on the periphery of these disasters or people with some personal agenda.
> All of those without fail that I have seen who are the true victims and those that are truly helping have had a quiet dignity.


You generally find Rona that the real genuine helpers are the ones that don't wish to be identified they normally remain silent


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

How interesting 
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/40-britis...y-park-mosque-attack-terrorism-132415436.html


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

I genuinely have no idea how someone can say that this is anything but terrorism.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

stuaz said:


> I genuinely have no idea how someone can say that this is anything but terrorism.


Have you actually met any of the general public?

People are ****ing stupid on the whole.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> We had a major incident in our town a while back, it was widely reported and a big deal at the time. The townsfolk, victims and their families just got on with life, none of the "shock, horror and distress" that was being reported. In times of "crisis" I think the natural human default is to get back to normality and routine as quickly as possible.
> 
> Mind you this was before Facebook and Twitter where you get "likes" for being the most traumatised and caring.


Yeah, thats right, we had a family that were left homeless by a gas explosion in 2013 two people died and the house was completely demolished, apart from a local collection whereby clothing food and Necessities were donated that was it. And I know for a fact there was not emergency housing nor social funding were made available, the survivors had to rely on friends and family! Big difference though, this tragedy has become political circus!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Opps sorry wrong thread, my excuse in on holiday


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Creativecat said:


> How interesting
> https://uk.news.yahoo.com/40-britis...y-park-mosque-attack-terrorism-132415436.html


I get really peed off with those kind of headlines. It's not 25% of the British public. It's 25% of the people who did the survey. Completely different thing.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Mirandashell said:


> I get really peed off with those kind of headlines. It's not 25% of the British public. It's 25% of the people who did the survey. Completely different thing


Agree...and if they only ask, say, 100 people, that's a grand total of 25. And the police always wait until it is confirmed before they say 'terrorism', even when it's fairly obvious to everyone that it is.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rona said:


> No just a general observation. I saw a couple on tv this morning that managed to get out alive, and I've seen a few survivors who have lost love ones and what comes across from all that I've seen is how quiet and controlled they are, a couple possibly from the shock but some are so eloquent too
> 
> It does seem on here and in the press that to be measured in how much you care or are affected is how much fuss you make.


Seems like the wailing and anger is causing the victims even more distress


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Creativecat said:


> How interesting
> https://uk.news.yahoo.com/40-britis...y-park-mosque-attack-terrorism-132415436.html


What I don't understand are the amount of lies and misinformation that came from the supposed witnesses that have been reported.

The police took hours to get there.
People were stabbed.
There were two more people in the van that ran off.

It's difficult enough for the police to investigate without this sort of stuff.


----------



## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

MilleD said:


> What I don't understand are the amount of lies and misinformation that came from the supposed witnesses that have been reported.
> 
> The police took hours to get there.
> People were stabbed.
> ...


Yes thts what struck me also.
If it was true why try and validate the seriousness of what happened any way by telling untruths . :0(


----------



## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Maybe people panic and think they are seeing a repeat of a previous incident? Must be scary at the best of times, but I imagine much worse so close after the previous terror attacks.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MilleD said:


> The police took hours to get there.


Yes it's weird; yet yesterday's Evening Standard said the police had identified it as a terror attack ''within eight minutes'' so one assumes they were there pretty quickly. It rather reminds me of asking someone the way to xyz. Instead of saying they don't know, they happily send you in the opposite direction, miles out of your way. They want to appear helpful/knowledgeable or whatever, when in fact they are just p8ssing everyone off. They should just say sorry, they don't know.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MilleD said:


> What I don't understand are the amount of lies and misinformation that came from the supposed witnesses that have been reported.
> 
> The police took hours to get there.
> People were stabbed.
> ...


They exaggerated the truth to confuse the situation and make it look like more was happening than actually happened. It is a diversion tactic.

The facts are that there was only one person who caused all this at Finsbury Park not three, the police and anti terror police where quick to establish this. Plus the police in the area responded in minutes and anti terror police where on the scene in 10 minutes not hours. These are facts.

The man who carried out this attack was charged with attempted murder as it is unclear if the man receiving first aid before the incident actually died as a result of the incident. The likely hood is his death was unrelated.

Those that lied will have there statements rejected by the CPS but won't know this.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

stockwellcat said:


> The likely hood is his death was unrelated


You're basing that on what exactly?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I guess until the pm results no one knows,. Have read several accounts, one being that the man was being comforted, another that someone was trying to find a pulse. Taking into account the man is being charged, I believe, with murder guess it will be down to the coroners report confirming whether the incident contributed to his death or if in fact it were unrelated. Just assuming like


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

DT said:


> someone was trying to find a pulse.


That's what The Evening Standard was saying yesterday.


----------



## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Yes well.... that's run by George Osborne. And I wouldn't believe him if he told me the sky is blue.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Mirandashell said:


> Yes well.... that's run by George Osborne. And I wouldn't believe him if he told me the sky is blue.


Yes, we all know who the editor is; however, I cannot for the life of me think why he would lie about something like this...what in God's name would he stand to gain from it? (Answers on a postcard please.) He didn't write the article anyway.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Nonnie said:


> You're basing that on what exactly?


The fact that he was receiving first aid before the incident took place and was having difficulty breathing and members of the public where helping administer first aid to him. The police said this in there public statement and is backed up from statements of those giving the man first aid to him.


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Closing this to check through. I'm not sure that it is the sort of thread for this sort of petty squabbling.
Reopening but any further bickering and there will be warnings and or bans issued


----------



## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Thankyou for that Lymorelynn.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

All seems quiet on the western front


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Can TM possibly get any worse? I shouldn't be surprised to be disgusted and appalled but this....










.....Does she seriously assume just because many of the tenants are black or Asian they could be "Illegal immigrants" amongst them?


----------



## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Awful what has happened . What is this now, 4 terrorist attacks? As for the man who did it as far as I'm concerned he's just as much a terrorist as the people who carried out the other attacks, doesn't matter that he is white British . I hope that he was working alone and that no other people are getting ideas from what he's done.

Like someone else said earlier in the thread all attacks like these do is play right into isis's hands. It creates division and anger in the Muslim community and isis take advantage of this and recruit more people to their cause. Makes me so angry


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

KittenKong said:


> Can TM possibly get any worse? I shouldn't be surprised to be disgusted and appalled but this....
> 
> View attachment 315687
> 
> ...


Clearly not as she is saying (according to what you have posted anyway) checks wont be carried out.

Perhaps some ignorant individuals (the racist, bigoted types) have made the suggestion and she is shutting it down.

Do you have a link to the article?

EDIT: just realised this is on the wrong thread.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Yes it's on the wrong thread, but requires answers. It has reportedly been suggested by survivors of Grenfell themselves as well as others that some people haven't come forward for treatment or help, because of fears over their immigration status. They're sleeping rough. Theresa May is offering reassurances, so they can come forward and get the help they need.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Nonnie said:


> Clearly not as she is saying (according to what you have posted anyway) checks wont be carried out.
> 
> Perhaps some ignorant individuals (the racist, bigoted types) have made the suggestion and she is shutting it down.
> 
> ...


Yes, you're right. Sorry about that.
Here's the link, as reported at 0945
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...live?page=with:block-594b885fe4b0fb1893fa1a70


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Elles said:


> Yes it's on the wrong thread, but requires answers. It has reportedly been suggested by survivors of Grenfell themselves as well as others that some people haven't come forward for treatment or help, because of fears over their immigration status. They're sleeping rough. Theresa May is offering reassurances, so they can come forward and get the help they need.


If that's true, then she is doing a good thing.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I think you're being slightly extreme. There may be someone illegally here who isn't getting the treatment they need. Now they have the reassurance they will. To assume she thinks everyone with a 'foreign' name is illegal is pushing it, IMO.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Mirandashell said:


> I think you're being slightly extreme. There may be someone illegally here who isn't getting the treatment they need. Now they have the reassurance they will. To assume she thinks everyone with a 'foreign' name is illegal is pushing it, IMO.


Seeing my comments caused offence to you I have deleted it, so will explain in a different way.

You only have to look at TM's record as home secretary, those, "Go home or face arrest" vans that patrolled some parts.

Put it this way, if I was black or Asian and told I wouldn't be facing an immigration check I would be furious as that does come over, whether intentionally or not, that due to a high concentration of "non white" people is insinuating they may be people deemed "illegal" amongst the victims.

Now, as I was the one to put this in the wrong thread we better get back on topic.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Ah no, I'm not offended! And I'm certainly not a fan of hers. And I do get what you mean. But I just feel it's more important that people get the treatment they need.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

They themselves were saying that they're scared of the authorities and immigration checks. Don't you think that some may be Syrian refugees, or others who had already suffered at the hands of the authorities in their own countries and are scared that when they lost their papers in the fire they'd be deported? Or in fact were illegal and staying with friends so daren't come forward. That IS what they're worried about. It is the reason they are sleeping rough and not coming forward for help and treatment. Their friends and neighbours from Grenfell have said as much.

Theresa May on this occasion has acted to allay fears they themselves have expressed. How do you know what colour they are? Not all illegal immigrants are black or Asian, or have "funny sounding name"s.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Mirandashell said:


> Ah no, I'm not offended! And I'm certainly not a fan of hers. And I do get what you mean. But I just feel it's more important that people get the treatment they need.





Elles said:


> They themselves were saying that they're scared of the authorities and immigration checks. Don't you think that some may be Syrian refugees, or others who had already suffered at the hands of the authorities in their own countries and are scared that when they lost their papers in the fire they'd be deported? Or in fact were illegal and staying with friends so daren't come forward. That IS what they're worried about. It is the reason they are sleeping rough and not coming forward for help and treatment. Their friends and neighbours from Grenfell have said as much.
> 
> Theresa May on this occasion has acted to allay fears they themselves have expressed. How do you know what colour they are? Not all illegal immigrants are black or Asian, or have "funny sounding name"s.


Yeah, under the circumstances I guess you're both right.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

You're right. I hadn't thought about the papers. The vast majority would have lost their passports and immigration papers in the fire. One more stress on top of everything else. And living on the street is no fun for anybody.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Elles said:


> Yes it's on the wrong thread, but requires answers. It has reportedly been suggested by survivors of Grenfell themselves as well as others that some people haven't come forward for treatment or help, because of fears over their immigration status. They're sleeping rough. Theresa May is offering reassurances, so they can come forward and get the help they need.


Well sorry if in going to upset some, but I for one dont agree with this, it opens the door to any illegal to come along and say they were living in that block! And lets not forget not every illegal is fleeing persecution!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

DT said:


> Well sorry if in going to upset some, but I for one dont agree with this, it opens the door to any illegal to come along and say they were living in that block! And lets not forget not every illegal is fleeing persecution!


I don't agree. I couldn't turn up and pretend I was in Grenfell Tower, I couldn't describe the lift door, or give the name of one friend in there. A liar wrote on cardboard that he was a resident to get money from generous passers by. He was practically lynched.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

DT said:


> Well sorry if in going to upset some, but I for one dont agree with this, it opens the door to any illegal to come along and say they were living in that block! And lets not forget not every illegal is fleeing persecution!


Anyone can say they lived in the block. Considering the LL's would have lots of information on their tenants it will be pretty easy to prove if they did or not.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Elles said:


> I don't agree. I couldn't turn up and pretend I was in Grenfell Tower, I couldn't describe the lift door, or give the name of one friend in there. A liar wrote on cardboard that he was a resident to get money from generous passers by. He was practically lynched.


Or one illegal not living there could be given that information by another illegal who was living there.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Anyone can say they lived in the block. Considering the LL's would have lots of information on their tenants it will be pretty easy to prove if they did or not.


I disagree. Isn't part of the problem of ascertaining who is sadly missing still partly because there were people living in there that the landlord wasn't aware of?

Otherwise there would be a list of names and they'd tick off who had been accounted for. Barring occasional visitors of course but how many would there been of those at that time of night?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

DT said:


> Or one illegal not living there could be given that information by another illegal who was living there.


Most living there were decent working people. Anyone who wasn't actually there would soon be outed. The government isn't saying they'll house illegals, they're saying they won't check status, so everyone who was there can come forward for treatment and help. Even someone who shouldn't have been there may have lost everything they had with them and could be sick or injured from smoke and fire. They are still people.

The government have said they'll house people who had homes there, not all and sundry. Some are worried that losing everything in the fire means they can't prove they are here legally and will be deported, they'd rather sleep rough and needed this reassurance. Our government isn't North Korea, we're not going to use the fire as an excuse to arrest people and imprison or deport them. They needed to know this. 

Of course millionaires can go pretty much anywhere they like, even corrupt millionaires. The World problems, war, poverty, politics, refugees and everything relating to it, is too big for a pet forum I think.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MilleD said:


> I disagree. Isn't part of the problem of ascertaining who is sadly missing still partly because there were people living in there that the landlord wasn't aware of?


But that isn't anything to do with illegal immigrants trying to claim they lived in the building to get housing.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> But that isn't anything to do with illegal immigrants trying to claim they lived in the building to get housing.


Yes it is, how do you prove one way or the other if the base information isn't held on who was actually there in the first place?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MilleD said:


> Yes it is, how do you prove one way or the other if the base information isn't held on who was actually there in the first place?


Because I don't believe that there is no base information and I don't believe there were any illegal immigrants there, nor do I believe that other illegal immigrants will try to use this tragedy to get a "free" house.

I believe that there were legal immigrants there (as well as British born) that are scared that they won't be able to prove that they are legally here.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

What does their status have to do with anything? Of course to get given another property there will be proof that someone lost one. The council keep records. If someone was subletting their flat illegally, that still has nothing to do with immigration status. Someone could say to their mate, Fred died in the fire, pretend to be him, you'll get a house. It will still have nothing to do with their immigration status and there'll be other proof that they aren't Fred. Thats identity fraud, not immigration. 

Let's say a landlord was legally subletting, but to an illegal immigrant. Or a family had their illegal cousin living with them. That illegal heard children screaming as they died and barely escaped with their lives, I for one don't give a sod about their status. The landlord will get a replacement flat and the illegal can live with their cousins again if they survived. Who cares. Even if every single survivor is an illegal immigrant, give them a bloody flat and shut up. 

At least 79 people did not survive. At least 79. That's 79 fewer people to rehome isn't it? Why is anyone remotely bothered about the possibility that an illegal immigrant might have got out of that hell hole.

Sorry but I'm getting cross. No doubt this thread will be closed. It's off topic and it's horrible.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

stockwellcat said:


> The fact that he was receiving first aid before the incident took place and was having difficulty breathing and members of the public where helping administer first aid to him. The police said this in there public statement and is backed up from statements of those giving the man first aid to him.


He died as a direct result of being hit by the van. Had he not been, he would be alive today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40366127



> He had suffered some form of collapse due to a weak leg and was "sitting up and expressing a wish to return home" when the attack happened


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Calvine said:


> And as to whether he himself was 'radicalised' in any way, you have to imagine that if his four children are old enough they will have heard quite enough from him to influence them. I won't say radicalise as that remains to be seen.


Surely that very much depends on his relationship with his children, if they respect him or are scared of him etc. Sometimes being exposed to extreme views from someone can make you turn away from their views as well as their person as you get older, and gain freedom to make your own choices.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> He died as a direct result of being hit by the van. Had he not been, he would be alive today.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40366127


Poor man, he wouldn`t have had a chance to try to get out of the way. Four terrorist attacks this year, please, please no more!!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Elles said:


> Sorry but I'm getting cross. No doubt this thread will be closed. It's off topic and it's horrible.


Your getting cross! Heck we cant have that can we?
Sorry! But I expect there are lot of people is this country who I guess are feeling pretty cross too and have every right to feel so! Apologises to other members if I have,come across as heartless, im not, and one cannot even begin to imagine the terror these poor people have gone through, but this is not the first time, nor will it be the last when human lives have been lost and destroyed through terrible tragedies they will never be able to blank from their minds, yes I agree they do need rehoming and help to try and get back to normality if ever they can, but what about other victims who have suffered fire, devastation,, floods, death ok on a smaller scale and nothing like the horror witnessed at the tower but have their lives not been equalling shattered? The liverpool gas explosion for example have those people been rehomed, or rather how many of those people are still in b&b?

Yes, this is by far the most terrible tragedy, I agree, but ask another who have lost their home in similar circumstances if their plight is,worse! Or better still ask them if these people deserve priority over another left devastated through tragedy!

No, the difference here is that this has been made political! And that is wrong!
So you elles, get as cross as you like! I couldnt give a monkies about how cross you feel! But there are others who deserve to be crosser, me I feel just as sorry for them!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

No, the difference is that government and council departments and other public authorities that are supposed to keep us all safe are at fault for this disaster. Their negligence. Their culpability.

That is why it's different to my house burning down because I left a chip pan on and forgot to test my smoke alarm. Even if I am utterly devastated and lost family members in the tragedy.

That still has nothing to do with the immigration status of those who died, or those who survived and why Theresa May is absolutely right imo to make the statement that she did to allay the fears of those who survived, or lost loved ones, but have been fearful of coming forward for help or treatment.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Ok gotcha, to those who lost their homes in the new ferry gas explosion, sorry you could not all be rehomed immediately nor be given emergency funds! but it was you own fault!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

DT said:


> Ok gotcha, to those who lost their homes in the new ferry gas explosion, sorry you could not all be rehomed immediately nor be given emergency funds! but it was you own fault!


Who said that? Of course it wasn't their fault. I didn't mention a Liverpool incident. Totally unrelated and nothing like the situation with the tower.

I'll let others argue with you if they want to. Everyone in Britain can't be compensated by the government every time something bad happens. The tower was an exceptional circumstance and now people are bringing immigration into it. It's gone too far beyond my personal limit, so I'll leave it. :Bookworm


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I find it odd that anyone would think there is a limit on compassion. It's not a finite resource.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Elles said:


> Who said that? Of course it wasn't their fault. I didn't mention a Liverpool incident. Totally unrelated and nothing like the situation with the tower.
> 
> I'll let others argue with you if they want to. Everyone in Britain can't be compensated by the government every time something bad happens. The tower was an exceptional circumstance and now people are bringing immigration into it. It's gone too far beyond my personal limit, so I'll leave it. :Bookworm


Good! Because to me you come across as favouring a two tier system when it comes to dealing with who is worthy of help and at what level, how far do you want to go? Mrs b on floor 16 needs a new hip, we wont keep her waiting in view of the ordeal she just suffered,?
And arguing, who's arguing? I'm voicing my opinions just like you love! Or are you the only one allowed this privilege? 
Opps don't get cross. lmfao !


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

My thoughts and prayers are with the family of the poor man who died. And with the four children who somehow have to come to terms with knowing their dad is a murderer.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I know, those poor children. Hopefully there is someone with some sense and compassion around them that can help them work through it.


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