# Vibrate / beep collar



## mantis1234 (Dec 31, 2009)

Hi All

Im not sure if this is chat or training but Ive been recommended a beep / vibrate collar for Phoebe ( not a shock collar lets just make that clea r) its because when she sees a bird she can't control herself, she barks non stop, she shakes and we have tried all sorts some of you remember we've even put film over the patio doors so she cant see the birds but its not working now she bounces and barks.

Ive bought a beep / vibrate collar which has a remote so that when she barks I press it and the beep distracts her - Ive only had it this evening and although it was v expensive it seems to be working, no pain just distraction ( before even food, my voice and a whistle wouldn't do it and when I used to go to her to tell her to be quiet she would run off barking even more)

my question is does anyone else use them / have they worked for you and I am really conscious if someone sees it they will think it's a shock collar which is most def is not but it does look v similar - would this stop you using it? I dont want anyone to see her from a distance and think Im cruel


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I believe some owners with deaf dogs use these collars. I guess as with anything if it's used properly it will hopefully help, does it come with any guidelines?

I'll be really interested to find out if it helps you 

If people think it's a shock collar, well, you can't really do much about that, except that if they ask you can of course make it clear it isn't


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## mantis1234 (Dec 31, 2009)

It says first give a warning so " no" or "come here" and then use the "beep" there are like 25 settings of loudness for beep so you can make it noisier then if that doesn't work you can use "vibrate" and then that has lots of levels of vibrate.

I havent used vibrate yet and the beep is on a low level but its enough to beep in her ear and make her think and forget what she's doing - granted it's literally been just this evening but still seems good so far.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

If I was you I would give a cue "quiet" or something, beep it, then when she is quiet drop a massive jackpot of treats at your feet. I would also give the "quiet" cue at random moments when she isn't barking etc and drop a massive handful of treats at your feet. Hopefully you will be able to faze the beep out quite quickly then. There is a danger I feel of not using the device as a training aid and just using it as some sort of remote control - in which case I think she will very, very quickly learn that the beep can be ignored and that barking at birds is still fun. At which point you may feel you need to crank up the beeping/vibrating and it will all esculate - whereas with a bit of training effort you could possibly get her responding to a quiet cue without using the collar at all fairly quickly.


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## mantis1234 (Dec 31, 2009)

Thanks werehorse I'll be mindful of that I had taught her "speak" then rewarding when she was quiet but when I say quiet around birds it's like she's deaf. its not that she doesn't know the command, she does, she just cant control herself with the birds.

of course if I get to a point where she is not barking and can be a bit calmer I wont beep it and I'll just stop using it. I think anyone who thought they could achieve a remote control dog would be seriously deluded. I just want her to be able to be calmer, seeing her shaking physically and squealing and barking at the birds I cant think she's enjoying herself.


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

mantis1234 said:


> It says first give a warning so " no" or "come here" and then use the "beep" there are like 25 settings of loudness for beep so you can make it noisier then if that doesn't work you can use "vibrate" and then that has lots of levels of vibrate.
> 
> I havent used vibrate yet and the beep is on a low level but its enough to beep in her ear and make her think and forget what she's doing - granted it's literally been just this evening but still seems good so far.


FWIW, this is the exact same principle as a shock collar, and the dogs do find it unpleasant, that's why they stop the behavior. Punishment 101.

Not making any judgement calls here, just clarifying that what you are doing is basically the same thing you would be doing with a shock collar, or spray collar. The dog avoids the consequence she finds unpleasant.

As with any form of punishment (I don't mean this as an emotionally laden term, I mean punishment in the behavioral science term), the drawbacks are that the dog will habituate to the noise or vibration and begin to ignore it - at which point you can make it louder or up the level of vibration. However, the more you repeat this cycle the greater chance of the dog developing a "punishment callous" and simply ignoring the sensation. 
Other drawbacks are that the dog could begin to make superstitious associations with the punishment. You may find the dog suddenly reluctant to go in a the room where she is corrected, or you may find that she begins to associate other beeping noises like the microwave or a cellphone with being corrected. This obviously stresses the dog which brings on it's own set of issues.

It's entirely up to you of course what you decide to do with your dog and your unique situation.


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## mantis1234 (Dec 31, 2009)

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and thats fair enough, I can totally understand how a shock collar is punishment and not good at all thats why I didnt get one. I can also understand your worry about her gradually ignoring the beep but I dont intend to use it that long, as soon as she loses interests in the bird, I stop

But to be honest, whats the difference between a beep, and you sternly or loudly saying no. It's just a noise at the end of the day. The only difference is the noise is nearer her ear, where as when I say no at her from a little distance away she phases the sound out, its a more effective distraction than food, my voice etc Can you really say a beep is punishment? if thats the case then surely any noise is then punishment, if we every say "no" loudly or the people who use keys and cans with coins in to stop their dogs doing things thats all punishment as well.

This isn't me being sensitive but I don't understand how you can say that spray in the face or an electric shock is the same as a harmless beep. thats just my opinion, to be honest I dont see the difference between a beep distraction v.s food or my voice especially when the latter two don't work with birds - although she is brilliant where birds arent involved. 

room wise she's only corrected in the garden via the beep and its only with the birds, its not for everything she does.

What I really want to know is has anyone had any successful experience using a beep collar?


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

mantis1234 said:


> Everyone's entitled to their opinion and thats fair enough, I can totally understand how a shock collar is punishment and not good at all thats why I didnt get one. I can also understand your worry about her gradually ignoring the beep but I dont intend to use it that long, as soon as she loses interests in the bird, I stop
> 
> But to be honest, whats the difference between a beep, and you sternly or loudly saying no. It's just a noise at the end of the day. The only difference is the noise is nearer her ear, where as when I say no at her from a little distance away she phases the sound out, its a more effective distraction than food, my voice etc Can you really say a beep is punishment? if thats the case then surely any noise is then punishment, if we every say "no" loudly or the people who use keys and cans with coins in to stop their dogs doing things thats all punishment as well.
> 
> ...


Ah well Why didn't you say that in the first place?

I have no experience whatsoever pleasant or otherwise.


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## mantis1234 (Dec 31, 2009)

Haha I did ask that in the first place! but thanks Lurcherowner appreciate your reply ( genuinely) I realise when I type it could sound sarcastic


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

mantis1234 said:


> Everyone's entitled to their opinion and thats fair enough, I can totally understand how a shock collar is punishment and not good at all thats why I didnt get one.


 Not my opinion,  Punishment has a very clear definition in behavioral science terms. Punishment is anything that lessens the frequency of a behavior. 
This is a good site that explains the terms for those interested (I get that not everyone is, that's okay )
Classical and Operant Conditioning



mantis1234 said:


> But to be honest, whats the difference between a beep, and you sternly or loudly saying no.


 None, they're both punishment in that they both cause a behavior (barking) to decrease in frequency. Punishment is punishment. Where it varies obviously is the intensity or the degree of punishment. And there the dog gets to decide, not you. Two of dogs find it very amusing to be beaten with rolled up magazines and empty paper towel rolls. My third dogs doesn't care either way. Other dogs might find that horrifying.
By the same token, some dogs are very sound sensitive and find sharp noises close to their ears very aversive. Just as some dogs find the noise of a clicker aversive. 
It also bears mentioning that for many dogs, the vibration sensation of an electronic collar is MORE aversive than a very low level electronic stimulation. It just depends on the dog. This is where knowing your dogs and being able to read their most subtle of signals is so beneficial.



mantis1234 said:


> its a more effective distraction than food, my voice etc


Using food as a reward is much more effective than trying to use food as a distraction. Yes, most dogs are not interested in food as a distraction when even slightly aroused. But you can train in such a way that the dog will maintain a desire for the reward of your choice even when highly aroused.



mantis1234 said:


> Can you really say a beep is punishment? if thats the case then surely any noise is then punishment, if we every say "no" loudly or the people who use keys and cans with coins in to stop their dogs doing things thats all punishment as well.


Yes, absolutely, it's all punishment - IF it serves to lessen the behavior. And it's always the DOG who decides what is punishing. And yes, for some dogs a beep is punishing. You'd have to watch the dog and the dog's subsequent behavior to know.



mantis1234 said:


> I don't understand how you can say that spray in the face or an electric shock is the same as a harmless beep.


 Because in terms of stopping or lessening a behavior, they are all considered punishment. Punishment doesn't have to be "harmful" to be effective. I can punish my dog by simply turning my head and breaking eye contact in a certain context. Not harmful at all, but you can bet he finds that very upsetting.

I'm not having a go at you at all, please don't think that. I'm just saying that it's not how YOU feel about a certain collar that makes it punishing or not, it's how the dog feels about it.


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

mantis1234 said:


> What I really want to know is has anyone had any successful experience using a beep collar?


Sorry, didn't mean to ignore this part, but before I can answer this, I'd have to know what your definition of "successful" is.

Also, how old is Phoebe and what type of impulse control exercises have you practiced with her?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

While I do not approve of collars of this kind (the temptation is always there to use the other functions) there is one way you can turn this into something positive.

Have a huge tub of small treats beside you, and have the collar on her. Make it bleep - give her a treat immediately. Repeat about 20 times.

Next day, do the same again.
Next day, again.

By this time, every time she hears that bleep, she should know something good is going to happen, so will look towards you for a treat., and should be coming back to you happily expecting one.

In effect you are using that bleep as a positive reward marker, exactly like a clicker.

You have the advantage then, that it can be bleeped remotely and she should then come back to you for a treat - especially if you use this for recall.

However if it is going to be used in this way I'd prefer the use of a collar which had NO other functions other than a bleep, so there will never be the chance by accident or design, of using its other capabilities. A remote spray collar that beeps, with no 'spray' in it, would do the job just as well with no chance of accident or possibility of aversion.


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## Peter M (Jan 10, 2016)

I agree entirely with merlinsmum as I have personally witnessed a Beep collar in use. This was on a 2 year old rescue dog who was seriously afflicted with the bird chasing disease. Once she locked her mind and eyes on a bird nothing else mattered, it had got the point where it was impossible to give her the freedom of being off lead. My friend then tried the beep collar and the result was astonishing after only some 4 outings. He used it as one would use a clicker, get her attention and as soon as she returned treat her. Before no amount of shouting, calling, whistling etc would have any effect of breaking her mind set. By the beeper being so close to her hearing it gave her mental subconscious something to alert her to a distraction, once she had then associated this to a recall and the promise of a treat.
After only a few outings she then started to take more notice of her other surroundings and birds no longer became her main focus. The result is that now she can be run off lead without any fear of he disappearing into the horizon.
This has to be a win win for both man and dog.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I know someone who used one purely as a way of recalling their dog (the person was disabled and used to let the dog loose in the garden and just bleep for the dog when they wanted him in), from what I saw the dog did sometimes ignore the beep, but most of the time he'd go running to his owner.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> FWIW, this is the exact same principle as a shock collar, and the dogs do find it unpleasant, that's why they stop the behavior. Punishment 101.
> 
> Not making any judgement calls here, just clarifying that what you are doing is basically the same thing you would be doing with a shock collar, or spray collar. The dog avoids the consequence she finds unpleasant.
> 
> ...


If you have to carry on using any 'collar' or any other form of aversive surely it is not working.
As you know I have used collars and have had good results. Toffee is obsessed by rabbits and birds - I have only used a collar on her for rabbits and only needed to use it twice and not for a couple of years. The other day I was out with her in a public place. I had called her to heel as we walked on a path that was rather close to a road then released her. A little while later a crow was hopping around a little way from the path. She shot towards it squeaking then stopped as though on an invisible lead, still squeaking, and rejoined me. Something useful clicked in her brain.
By the way I was not walking her off lead by the road, it is a park area that has a grassy bank between the path and the main road. Very odd that there is no fence and very easy to forget about it as you cannot see how close you are. No one seems to worry about it and just leaves their dogs loose but it is quite high risk.

If a collar had not had the desired effect first time I used it it would never have been used again. If it had needed using a third time it would not have been used again. If I did not train her as well it would not have been used in the first place.

it sounds like the OP is using it correctly


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2016)

Blitz said:


> If you have to carry on using any 'collar' or any other form of aversive surely it is not working.


Depends if you're using the collar as positive punishment or negative reinforcement.

I take it you put a bridle on your horses to ride them or drive them yes? That bridle has a bit and reins which are your tools of negative reinforcement that the horse responds to as he has been trained. And through training the aids become quieter and less noticeable, but you're never completely free of them. In the same way that positive reinforcement has to be continually reinforced, either through periodic food rewards, play, treats or opportunities to do what the dog enjoys.

Reinforcement strengthens behavior, punishment weakens behavior. 
I can either reinforce the behavior of returning to me or punish the behavior of running towards a critter.

Some people use e-collars as negative reinforcement - reinforcing behavior by removal of something the dog finds unpleasant (a low level stim). It's no different than putting pressure on the rein and then releasing that pressure as soon as the horse turns. Same concept - the behavior of turning is reinforced by removing the pressure on the rein. Done right, you can end up with a horse who turns on a dime with a minor twitch of the pinkie. There are trainers out there who are actually quite humane and effective with this sort of training with e-collars (and the have the right dogs for it). The dog is working on a level of stim that most of us would not even be able to perceive. 
I'm not advocating for this kind of training, just explaining that some people use e-collars as negative reinforcement which is a valid quadrant of learning theory.

But yes, punishment is what you should only need to use once or twice otherwise you risk habituation, punishment callous, the dog knowing the consequence and deciding the punishment is worth it... all that good stuff.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Depends if you're using the collar as positive punishment or negative reinforcement.
> 
> I take it you put a bridle on your horses to ride them or drive them yes? That bridle has a bit and reins which are your tools of negative reinforcement that the horse responds to as he has been trained. And through training the aids become quieter and less noticeable, but you're never completely free of them. In the same way that positive reinforcement has to be continually reinforced, either through periodic food rewards, play, treats or opportunities to do what the dog enjoys.
> 
> ...


I like the bridle analogy. To take it a step further a lot of driving ponies are trained to voice commands including left and right. I have one that I can do a cones course on a completely loose rein but obviously he started off being guided round with the reins and bit. He will allow children to 'drive' him and it is seldom I have to help out with the 'real' reins. He has the kids reins on his headcollar and obeys every command they give him. I once drove him several miles on the road and then realised I had forgotten to put the reins on his bit.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

This thread dates from 2013  I got all happy because I thought that owned by a yellow lab was back


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> This thread dates from 2013  I got all happy because I thought that owned by a yellow lab was back


ha ha, never noticed!


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## surreyosteo (Jul 19, 2012)

Blitz said:


> If you have to carry on using any 'collar' or any other form of aversive surely it is not working.
> As you know I have used collars and have had good results. Toffee is obsessed by rabbits and birds - I have only used a collar on her for rabbits and only needed to use it twice and not for a couple of years. The other day I was out with her in a public place. I had called her to heel as we walked on a path that was rather close to a road then released her. A little while later a crow was hopping around a little way from the path. She shot towards it squeaking then stopped as though on an invisible lead, still squeaking, and rejoined me. Something useful clicked in her brain.
> By the way I was not walking her off lead by the road, it is a park area that has a grassy bank between the path and the main road. Very odd that there is no fence and very easy to forget about it as you cannot see how close you are. No one seems to worry about it and just leaves their dogs loose but it is quite high risk.
> 
> ...


would you be able to tell me how you used your collars? I am interested to hear others experiences as I have been recommended one for my dog


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

surreyosteo said:


> would you be able to tell me how you used your collars? I am interested to hear others experiences as I have been recommended one for my dog


May I ask what the collar was recommended for? 
Was it shock or vibration (or both)?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

And what is the issue with the dog and what training have you tried?


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## surreyosteo (Jul 19, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> May I ask what the collar was recommended for?
> Was it shock or vibration (or both)?


I was recommended one that just beeps - no shock/vibration - to be used for recall. I have done lots of work with both my dogs but we cannot over seem to overcome the squirrel issue! I have done lots of engage/disengage training with them but hasn't helped. They both just end up fixated and unable to hear/focus on anything else


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

surreyosteo said:


> I was recommended one that just beeps - no shock/vibration - to be used for recall. I have done lots of work with both my dogs but we cannot over seem to overcome the squirrel issue! I have done lots of engage/disengage training with them but hasn't helped. They both just end up fixated and unable to hear/focus on anything else


Has the trainer explained how a beep is going to work where your voice doesn't? It's an expensive investment without knowing if your dog is going to respond or not. 
I ask because I would think if you, your dog's human aren't sufficient motivation to get him away from squirrels, how would a beep be any better?

You say 'both', does this happen when both dogs are off leash together? I would start by tackling the problem one dog at a time. 
Also, have you considered using the opportunity to chase a squirrel as a reward?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

surreyosteo said:


> I was recommended one that just beeps - no shock/vibration - to be used for recall. I have done lots of work with both my dogs but we cannot over seem to overcome the squirrel issue! I have done lots of engage/disengage training with them but hasn't helped. They both just end up fixated and unable to hear/focus on anything else


Have you tired a whistle first? Same principle but ALOT cheaper. ACME do a good range with varying pitches ..... https://www.acmewhistles.co.uk/buy-online


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## surreyosteo (Jul 19, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> Has the trainer explained how a beep is going to work where your voice doesn't? It's an expensive investment without knowing if your dog is going to respond or not.
> I ask because I would think if you, your dog's human aren't sufficient motivation to get him away from squirrels, how would a beep be any better?
> 
> You say 'both', does this happen when both dogs are off leash together? I would start by tackling the problem one dog at a time.
> Also, have you considered using the opportunity to chase a squirrel as a reward?


They are trained one at a time - I think the idea was that the beep may break them out of the 'deaf' state but I don't know anyone has used them which is why I wanted to hear some other opinions.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

surreyosteo said:


> They are trained one at a time - I think the idea was that the beep may break them out of the 'deaf' state but I don't know anyone has used them which is why I wanted to hear some other opinions.


I've known people to use them but they also use the stimulus setting, & the collars they use are approx. £300+ from what I've been told …. not something that is worth splashing out for if a whistle could do the job!


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## surreyosteo (Jul 19, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> I've known people to use them but they also use the stimulus setting, & the collars they use are approx. £300+ from what I've been told …. not something that is worth splashing out for if a whistle could do the job!


I have been training them to the whistle but it only works in low distraction environments


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm sorry but if a whistle and/or voice isn't working, I don't understand how a beep from a collar would be any different, unless the trainer is using the beep as a predictor of a vibration or stim.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I suppose a beep that close to the dog could be used as new cue but the dog would have to be on a long line still to teach the recall (so no chance of failing & the new cue becoming 'poisoned'). But … a lot of people (who use these collars) do use the beep as a predictor of an aversive stimulus. Personally with some dogs I don't have a problem with this but it very much depends on the dog, the level of training & the level of the aversive. All of which take a very skilled trainer.


I don't know your dogs or how you are training but maybe go back to basics & don't let them practise this sort of behaviour


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I am currently using a beep collar on a 10 year old dog who is a bit deaf and who also zones out and approaches other dogs inappropriately. I put the collar on her and beeped her when she was close to me and gave her a treat. I repeated this a few times then went out and waited till she was sniffing or distracted but still quite close and beeped and treated. I had used it for about a week before I used it around other dogs. She headed for a dog, I beeped and she stopped in her tracks, swung round with her tail going and headed back to me for a treat. I keep forgetting to take it out with me but have found she is thinking about me before she marches off now. On the other hand I tried it on a friend's very annoying terrier who is atrocious round other dogs and the beep had not effect at all. If he was mine I would attempt building it up as I did with my dog but I think the owner is not prepared to spend the time so it is not worth it.


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