# Unregistered Queens & Kittens



## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Hi All

Im afraid its another one of those unregistered things again...............

I have been enquiring about kittens and had an email from a breeder who said the following:
Hi there, i only sell my kittens as pets if you decide to breed from them i don't have a problem but they wont be registered. They will have a pedigree birth certificate to prove they are pedigree but will not be registered active.
I don't agree with charging an extra £800 or so just for a piece of paper an to have the cat on file so to speak! I have 1 female £500,shes spotted with a silver glitter from her dad,he is a beautiful blue eyed snow spotted Bengal, and 1 male £400,he's brown marbled very wild looking.
If you decide your interested let me know and ill email you some pictures or your welcome to come and visit.


I then asked her what she sells her kittens for and her repsonse was:
Hi again, you can sell them as pedigrees still, for around £500 each depending on the sex colour and markings. Just as i do.

Now im sure she is a really good breeder - but how can she get away with charging top money for kittens that are not registered??? Is this acceptable??? Do people who are buying for pets not worry about the registration papers???


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

xxSaffronxx said:


> Hi All
> 
> Im afraid its another one of those unregistered things again...............
> 
> ...


I bought my siamese for pets, and they were not registered. I had never had pedigree cats before and rightly or wrongly didnt see the point in having papers?


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Lisa M said:


> I bought my siamese for pets, and they were not registered. I had never had pedigree cats before and rightly or wrongly didnt see the point in having papers?


How much did you pay for the kittens if you dont mind my asking? And is that price the same for registered kittens?


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Also if you were to buy them as unregistered pets you would you expect to pay the price of a registered one? I know I would expect a discount for unregistered??
But this woman is selling them at the same price as registered


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

I have to be honest and say i wouldnt expect to pay the same price. I paid £200 each for mine which at the time seemed very reasonable for unregistered, in fact still seems to be, though im no expert.


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## SAKURA (Mar 20, 2008)

My registered Bengal breeding queens cost me from £1000 up to £1450 and my males have cost me from £1300 up to £1700. So she is selling them cheaper than registered as far as I can see.


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

SAKURA said:


> My registered Bengal breeding queens cost me from £1000 up to £1450 and my males have cost me from £1300 up to £1700. So she is selling them cheaper than registered as far as I can see.


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

SAKURA said:


> My registered Bengal breeding queens cost me from £1000 up to £1450 and my males have cost me from £1300 up to £1700. So she is selling them cheaper than registered as far as I can see.


Yes the prices you have quoted are the prices im expecting to pay for a snow bengal queen.

But as pets she wants to charge £550 and I have seen them on Pets4Homes between £400-£600 so it doesnt appear to be cheaper to me? Or do you think they should be sold at a higher price than £600 for pet not breeding?


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

Also Sakura I have just looked at your website and your cats are beautiful!!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Some breeders charge a premium for an active cat, but then to be that they would have to be registered.

If the kitten is for pet, and both the parents are registered (that way you have some guarantee that they are actually pedigree) then if the kitten was 13 weeks, vaccinated, socialised etc and not misrepresented as a pedigree, then there possibly may not be that much difference between a registered pet and a non registered pet price.

If, however, the parents are not registered, then there is no real proof that the kittens are pedigree as stated and in those circumstances I think the price should be lower than a registered pet, because you can not claim the kitten is pedigree. Like when they use that term "gold coloured metal" instead of stating gold, if there is no mark to prove it is gold - if that makes sense


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

SAKURA said:


> My registered Bengal breeding queens cost me from £1000 up to £1450 and my males have cost me from £1300 up to £1700. So she is selling them cheaper than registered as far as I can see.


Yes but that is a very high price for Bengals these days isn't it?

But to answer the question, if someone pays full price for a pedigree then they should expect to get the papers, surely. I have previously sold unregistered pedigree kittens (for a very good reason) but at 1/6 to 1/3 of the normal pedigree price.

Liz


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## xxSaffronxx (Apr 2, 2008)

lizward said:


> Yes but that is a very high price for Bengals these days isn't it?
> 
> But to answer the question, if someone pays full price for a pedigree then they should expect to get the papers, surely. I have previously sold unregistered pedigree kittens (for a very good reason) but at 1/6 to 1/3 of the normal pedigree price.
> 
> Liz


Actually Liz thats about average - i have spoken to many reputable breeders over the last few days and those prices seem to be correct for a snow bengal


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## emajhall (Apr 21, 2008)

I was surprised to find that most of the enquiries i get for my kittens are from people wanting to breed - although they do not want to pay more than pet price. It almost seems too easy now to buy an unregistered kitten at pet price and breed - they can still sell the kittens at the going rate.


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## Maxwell (Feb 19, 2008)

xxSaffronxx said:


> Hi All
> 
> Im afraid its another one of those unregistered things again...............
> 
> ...


Basically she sounds like a BYB to me..
_I bet her breeding cats were bought as pets - therefore are not on the active...( thats why she cant register them...)The reason we register the breeding cats is to guaruntee the quality of the breed..
unregistered means no guaruntee of parentage no matter what 'pedigree' they give you.
also you cant show non registered cats - why would anyone buy a kitten for registered price with non of the quality & parentage or health guarentee's??
If all breeders did this then everyone will be just churning out kittens for old rope and no end of problems will occur in the breed..
Surely to breed a specific breed you should have registered active cats, the parents then health screened, then register the kittens .. it all costs time & money but its for the good of the breed..
anyone who just breeds off unregistered so called 'pedigree' cats is harming the quality of the breed if you ask me & I wouldnt touch them with a barge pole..

_


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## Desertstorm (Jan 19, 2008)

>Basically she sounds like a BYB to me..
I bet her breeding cats were bought as pets - therefore are not on the active...( thats why she cant register them...)The reason we register the breeding cats is to guaruntee the quality of the breed..
unregistered means no guaruntee of parentage no matter what 'pedigree' they give you.
also you cant show non registered cats - why would anyone buy a kitten for registered price with non of the quality & parentage or health guarentee's??
If all breeders did this then everyone will be just churning out kittens for old rope and no end of problems will occur in the breed..
Surely to breed a specific breed you should have registered active cats, the parents then health screened, then register the kittens .. it all costs time & money but its for the good of the breed..
anyone who just breeds off unregistered so called 'pedigree' cats is harming the quality of the breed if you ask me & I wouldnt touch them with a barge pole..<


I am afraid I have to jump in here. I am from Canada where I jokingly say "we live so far back in the woods we have to come out to hunt." I do not register my himalayians...however, I do NOT breed related cats. I am very careful who I breed my queens to, thus own my own stud. I have a closed cattery. I breed only my own cats/ My cats come from registered cats whose owners simply gave up on the red tape of registering. With never a cat show in the area , buying and selling registered animals was found to be a waste of time and money. None of my buyers cares as long as they get the looks, guaranteed health and colour type they want...and of course having the vets tell them my kittens are beautiful and healthy does a lot for my reputation. After all you know and I know, that by registering something, without actual D.N.A. there is no actual proof that the kitten or other animal is from who it is supposed to be from. I know of two registered kittens that were sold as breeders that carry a genetic heart defect. My cousin (a registered breeder) who unlike you, does not look down her nose at me, has these two and has to have a test done by a certain age to see if they are carriers or not. The selling breeder did not make her aware of the fact. So much for registered kittens being guaranteed healthy...simply because they have papers. By limiting the gene pool inbreeding can run rampant...something I do not agree with. I know it has been done to introduce new breeds, but as with the Fjord horses (which we own a couple of) the less inbreeding once the breed is established the better). We know it is not acceptable in the human race...it is known as "incest" and is illegal. To further my conviction that inbreeding is wrong.... my neighbour bred pugs. She bred father to daughter. The first litter turned out ok so she did it again, and yet again. Both 2nd and 3rd litters had flippers for legs and lived less than 3 weeks. Even barn cats are bred by "travelling toms" thus enlarging the gene pool. Just because an animal is papered does not necessarily make it any better, or healthier.....For you to state that registering guarantees health and unregistered animals are of poorer quality is simply untrue and you know it! The integrety of the breeder, registered or not, is what is important.
I purchased a registered Rottweiler puppy last summer. She turned a year old in January and I am still waiting for her papers. Her mother and father were imported from Germany and the breeder said she was still working on registering her previous litter. I have no idea what is going on here but it seems to me as if those durned papers are a pain in the butt. I could notify the Canadian Kennel Club and get her in a peck of trouble....I am not willing to do that at the present time at least. I am not showing my dog and though it would be nice to have her papers, really when all is said and done, I have the same dog....registered or not! Her price as a breeding bitch was $2000.00. Her price for a pet to be spayed (which I did) was $1000.00. So she definitely wanted the big bucks for allowing her to be "active". I am sorry, but I take offence to the term Back Yard Breeder..... as the old indian said "you should walk 10 miles in our moccasins" before you voice such a degretary opinion!


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## natashagodber (Dec 6, 2012)

Hi all, new member here so please go gentle.

I am here to ask advice as to whether or not to breed my Bengal Queen.

Some facts.....

She is from what the vet can gather a full pedigree snow spotted bengal.

I have no papers for her, she is not TICA or GCCF registered.

I rehomed her from a lady who couldnt cope with her loud voice. (Dont get me started on why she didnt research the breed before purchasing her).

She is 18 months old and according to previous owner has had 1 previous litter (caught by local tom cat) which she mothered well and coped well with pregnancy, birth and motherhood.

I would be a novice breeder, have never done this before.

I would of course read everything I can get my hands on about breeding Bengals and breeding in general if I chose to go ahead.

I understand that breeding isnt a get rich quick scheme and I am not looking into it for the money side at all. I wish to be able to keep a couple of kittens as pets and to rehome any remaining kittens as cheaply as possible (probably charging just a small rehoming fee to try and guarantee a good home).

I am thinking of breeding her merely because I want to share my love for this breed by making it possible for people or families to own a Bengal at a fraction of the cost that it would normally set you back.

I paid £300 for her, and was very willing to do so because when I went to meet her I fell in love with her, I know she is unregistered but I would have paid more for her, I had to bring her home with me, she has such a wonderful personality and is a beautiful cat to look at.

I know I am rambling, I guess what I am saying is I dont wish to breed her to make money from her, I can afford any vets, feeding and breeding costs, I can afford to care for however many kittens she may produce. I just want to share this beautiful breed of cat with people less financially secure than myself. I would keep all kittens until I have had them fleaed, wormed vaccinated and would even consider paying for each of them to be neutered or spayed before leaving me to guarantee that the new owners dont see them as breeding money making machines.


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## Tamiyamumma (Sep 13, 2012)

From what I have read from breeders on here if she isn't registered and on the active list I wouldn't bother.

She must have papers to confirm her 5 gen pedigree. Is she only 18 months and already had a litter from a local Tom she could have picked up any number of diseases that she could pass onto further kittens.

No registered stud owner will entertain an unregistered queen and I would reckon even more so if she's already had a unknown mating. 

IMO Spey her and enjoy your beautiful girl.

(I hope all info is correct please fill in blanks or correct I am only recalling what I have read) xxxxx


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

natashagodber said:


> Hi all, new member here so please go gentle.
> 
> I am here to ask advice as to whether or not to breed my Bengal Queen.
> 
> ...


Without the necessary registration certificate to say that the girl is active you will not find a reputable stud willing to take her. If you find a stud owner they too will be a back yard breeder and probably won't ask for any health tests to be carried out before mating. Queens should have a snap test to check for feline aids and leukemia which can be transmitted to the stud. If your girl has already had a litter by the local tom then she is at risk from either of these diseases .
As beautiful as she surely is I would suggest you have her spayed and enjoy her as a loving pet. Without the paperwork there is no definite proof that she is a Bengal, no matter what she looks like (and I'm sure we need a picture to see how gorgeous she is )


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I can understand your desire to provide bengals to those less financially stable than yourself, but this throws up a number of issues.

The person: If they are financially unstable, will they be able to afford vet bills, good food, lots of toys? If so now, the instability may mean that they wouldn't be able to a few months down the line. Wouldn't that worry you?

The cat: Because she isn't registered, you have no proof of her parentage and no idea of her lines. Benglas can be prone to HCM among other things, a horrendous disease that can kill cats very young. Because you don't know the parentage, you may be providing those unstable owners with a kitten who is not only going to cause heartache through illness, but who may have horrendously expensive vet bills which could drive the family under, or see your kitten end up dumped, as rescues don't have the capacity to accept cats veyr often any more. She could have picked up FIV or even FeLV among other things from the unknown tom. Yes, you can test for this, but there are plenty of other diseases which she may have been exposed to, or which may even run in the lines. Ask yourself this, why didn't the original breeder register her? There's normally a reason, and that is rarely good.

You: Could you cope with it if your cat died in labour or during a C section? It's a very hard concept to deal with, and it's why most of we breeders put our girls through it only because it's giving something back to the breed in question. Otherwise, in my opinion, it's not worth the risk. If you're very financially stable and have a love of the Bengal in particular, why not do your research and purchase a fully health tested, ethically bred, registered queen from a good breeder? you will likely be able to afford the cost, and there's nothing stopping you selling the resultant kittens for pennies anyway. You'll get better access to good studs with a registered queen, as no breeder worth their salt would allow her boy to run with an unregistered one. It's against GCCF rules, for one thing.

I hope this puts things into perspective a little more.


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

natashagodber said:


> Hi all, new member here so please go gentle.
> 
> I am here to ask advice as to whether or not to breed my Bengal Queen.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice already given. Why not neuter her and join a breed club - that way you can go to seminars and get to know registered breeders and get to know all the ins and outs. It is worth putting a bit of effort in to do things correctly. It is also worth visiting a cat show and speaking to exhibitors/breeders - it's amazing the knowledge you can pick up.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Since she is not registered (so far as you know) and not on the active (speaking GCCF here) you can't take her to a registered stud, so I'd say please get her neutered ASAP.

Calling without being mated is not only hard on the ears (the previous owner might have found life easier had they neutered her) but can lead to pyometra, a potentially fatal and always serious infection of the uterus. And the more calls she has, the greater her chances of breast cancer.



> I am thinking of breeding her merely because I want to share my love for this breed by making it possible for people or families to own a Bengal at a fraction of the cost that it would normally set you back.


You are probably going to think I am being mean here, but in my view people who can't afford a genuine registered pedigree cat probably can't afford a cat. What I mean is that if you can't find £500 if you are planning for it, what will happen when a £500 vet bill comes along?

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying everyone should have pedigree cats - far from it. If anyone asks me what breed they should get I tell them a rescue will be perfect. However having a cat can be expensive, insurance is expensive (I don't insure), and you don't want anyone who gets a kitten you have bred to be giving it back because it needs vet care they can't afford to give it.

In my view you do a breed no favours by undercutting breeders, which in effect is what you are talking about doing. By the time the costs of a litter have been added up there is often little if any profit - in general there is so little the Inland Revenue are not really interested. Costs include:

buying the female
cost of keeping her until she is ready to mate (can be a year or more)
24hour FeLV / FIV tests before she goes to stud
stud fee
cost of keeping her while she is pregnant and starts to eat quite a lot
cost of mountains of food and litter while the kittens are with you
cost of worming mother and kittens and vaccinating the kittens
possible cost of neutering the kittens
cost of advertising them
various mileage costs
possible cost of a website
possible increased heating costs depending what time of the year she has her kittens
cost of laundry so they have nice clean beds / blankets - think of the costs of using a tumble drier for example
all the things I have forgotten....
This should give you a indication that breeding isn't a cheap business.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

You must have been typing at the same time as I was!



carly87 said:


> <snip>
> The cat: Because she isn't registered, you have no proof of her parentage and no idea of her lines. Benglas can be prone to HCM among other things, a horrendous disease that can kill cats very young.
> <snip>


I had forgotten about that aspect of Bengals. Also with no idea of her parentage you could accidentally mate her to a stud who is too closely related to her.


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

If people do want a pedigree, but may not be able to afford, £500 for one they could perhaps consider getting a rehome from one of the breed club rescues - where they would ask for a donation - generally around £75-£100 give or take. However homechecks are usually undertaken and OrientalSlave has a very valid point about being able to afford the vet bills.

Please do consider spaying the girl you have now and should you wish to consider becoming a breeder do your research, establish contact with some reputable registered breeders, and take things from there.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Since she is not registered (so far as you know) and not on the active (speaking GCCF here) you can't take her to a registered stud


Wrong. The chances of any reputable stud owner accepting her are slim to none BUT it's a fallacy that a stud owner cannot accept an unregistered cat. They cannot accept a cat on the non-active register ie one which is registered but pointedly not for breeding.

As to the price of kittens being tied to pedigree registration I'm amazed at the difference it makes. Registering kittens isn't what costs me a fortune. Rearing them to 13 weeks on premium priced food, using tons of premium priced cat litter, vaccinations, heating,electricity etc. etc. are what cost the money. If anyone with kittens takes the same care I do and pours in the same sort of money I have no problem with them attempting to recoup some of those costs.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Im sorry but to me it's wrong to breed from a non-active cat, its abusing the breeders trust and going against her wishes. Also without paperwork the kittens are Justa's (moggies). Add up the costs of breeding properly and the price you are likely to get on moggies and you will be very out of pocket.


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## natashagodber (Dec 6, 2012)

Thank you all for your replies and opinions. Decision made.... Speying it is.

Appreciate everyones time in reading my essay thank u lol.

Would love to post a pic of her, how do I do it?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

natashagodber said:


> Thank you all for your replies and opinions. Decision made.... Speying it is.
> 
> Appreciate everyones time in reading my essay thank u lol.
> 
> Would love to post a pic of her, how do I do it?


Oooh picture  You can click on the paperclip icon (next to the smiley) and download one from your computer or you can use a site like photobucket and copy and paste the image code


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## natashagodber (Dec 6, 2012)

Think I have figured it out


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

She is pretty :001_wub: A very dainty looking girl


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## natashagodber (Dec 6, 2012)

Im very proud to have her as part of our family


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

She is gorgeous !!


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## natashagodber (Dec 6, 2012)

Thank you very much


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## Tamiyamumma (Sep 13, 2012)

How adorable!! Xxx


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

I just wanted to say that I know a bengal breeder and she has just given up as there are TOO many unregistered and back yard breeders, the bengal rescues are full, normal rescues wont tak them and too many are being put to sleep as people do not know how to raise them!! Good breeders currently cant sell their kittens and she knows people with kittens that are 8 months plus old that cant sell them.

Her friend just GAVE AWAY 5, yes 5 pedigree snow bengal kittens FOR FREE that were 6 months old that she could not sell, these are fully registered health tested bengal kittens, that breeder has also given up.

Also she needs to be HCM screened at about £600 and pkdef tested, so does the stud and fiv felv.

Glad you are neutering her but she may not even be a pedigree bengal could just be a cross, you dont know. she is lovely hope she is a lovely pet


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

catlove844 said:


> I just wanted to say that I know a bengal breeder and she has just given up as there are TOO many unregistered and back yard breeders


I know some too, seems to be an issue worldwide with some breeds, and too many breeders not selling their kittens already desexed means it's a runaway train.


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## stevenco (Jan 7, 2011)

is it true that gccf are trying to get kittens spayed a week after there 2nd injections. they say its the best time for kittens. i did know a breeder that was getting her kittens done at 16 weeks old.

had the same thing i sold a kitten for a pet then a year later she trying to get the kitten on the active reg by ringing gccf up. then ringing me up asking for her paper work. i said no cos sold it for a pet and you will get the papers when she has been spayed. 

how far can you go with the contract they have signed, buying this cat for a pet and i will get her spayed before 6 months of age


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

stevenco said:


> is it true that gccf are trying to get kittens spayed a week after there 2nd injections. they say its the best time for kittens. i did know a breeder that was getting her kittens done at 16 weeks old.
> 
> had the same thing i sold a kitten for a pet then a year later she trying to get the kitten on the active reg by ringing gccf up. then ringing me up asking for her paper work. i said no cos sold it for a pet and you will get the papers when she has been spayed.
> 
> how far can you go with the contract they have signed, buying this cat for a pet and i will get her spayed before 6 months of age


Did you contact the lady when the kitten was 5months old saying that its due soon? Then at 6-7months saying that its late?

Sadly alot of breeders just simply do not bother contacting the new owners and asking them, we just got a lady to neuter her pet, 18month old, sold with a neuter contract, the breeder not once contacted her, lucky the lady didnt realise how much went into breeding and got her neutered 2weeks later, I called the breeder to tell her and she just said that she waits for the paperwork to arrive, if it doesnt she doesnt send it out, didnt sound bothered at all


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## stevenco (Jan 7, 2011)

yes at 7 months but the number i was trying to get her on was not working anymore. when she got back to me not long ago i said no and ive been trying again on this number looks like she has done it again. and i'm not the person to drive 100 miles to knock on her door to ask her. so i'm going to ask a few vets to see how young i can get my kittens done.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I always follow up neutering but im currently having problems with an owner who is refusing to neuter even though they have signed a contract. This person has also contacted gccf to try and place on active but without the transfer number she cant register this kitten herself.
I have tried to speak with this owner but i know she may go to a byb to use for breeding, so all i can do at this time is threaten court action and hope it works. I dont know if a contract would stand up in court, possibly not.

Now i will always have my kittens neutered to protect them but sadly my regular vet isnt too happy neutering before 6 months old. So i have a choice change vets or keep the kittens until they are older.


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## stevenco (Jan 7, 2011)

catcoonz said:


> I always follow up neutering but im currently having problems with an owner who is refusing to neuter even though they have signed a contract. This person has also contacted gccf to try and place on active but without the transfer number she cant register this kitten herself.
> I have tried to speak with this owner but i know she may go to a byb to use for breeding, so all i can do at this time is threaten court action and hope it works. I dont know if a contract would stand up in court, possibly not.
> 
> Now i will always have my kittens neutered to protect them but sadly my regular vet isnt too happy neutering before 6 months old. So i have a choice change vets or keep the kittens until they are older.


then you have the thing people dont want it at 6 months old they like it when its 12 weeks old.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I know...... cant win can you. 
Then if you say you will withold pedigree they kick up as people expect everything to go with the kitten.
Will have to use a different vet and hope i dont lose any kittens whilst neutering.
I guess its a case of you either trust the new owners and are 100% happy or you take the risk.


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

catcoonz said:


> I always follow up neutering but im currently having problems with an owner who is refusing to neuter even though they have signed a contract. This person has also contacted gccf to try and place on active but without the transfer number she cant register this kitten herself.
> I have tried to speak with this owner but i know she may go to a byb to use for breeding, so all i can do at this time is threaten court action and hope it works. I dont know if a contract would stand up in court, possibly not.
> 
> Now i will always have my kittens neutered to protect them but sadly my regular vet isnt too happy neutering before 6 months old. So i have a choice change vets or keep the kittens until they are older.


I feel for you. I had one kitten owner - from our second litter who signed the contract saying they would neuter at 6 months but didn't - although to be fair the lady was ill for a while but not for the whole of the following 8 months before she did neuter her - with me continually checking on whether she had done it or not. I was so worried as I also had a responsibility as I had signed a contract with the stud owners that all kittens would only be "pets". It was at that point we started looking/researching early neutering in depth and were lucky as our vet, a New Zealander, has no problem with EN as it is done over there as a matter of course. He says it is not age but size - if the kitten is big enough he will early neuter. Our subsequent litters have all been early neutered, the kittens recover so quickly it is amazing, and there have been no problems arising.


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

I can assure you cc your contract would stand in court if has been sign by the new owner before taking the kitten. 
I think this is a much wider problem than most people think. I would hate to be in your situation. I'm pro early neutering but many are not but I think it kills two birds with one stone, no byb and no op for new owner to worry about.
Are the gccf aware this person was under contract and has breached it, the gccf may be able to help/advise you also.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

stevenco said:


> is it true that gccf are trying to get kittens spayed a week after there 2nd injections. they say its the best time for kittens. i did know a breeder that was getting her kittens done at 16 weeks old.


I don't know how much that can be enforced if the majority of vets aren't on board.

I do my kittens at 10-11 weeks old, they are vaccinated at 8 & 12 weeks. Over here it's common for breeders to get it done before adopting out at 12+ weeks to ensure the kitten can never be bred from.

Little ones also bounce back so quick, you'd never know the 2 I've got racing around in front of me were done today.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Only the BREEDER can transfer a cat or kitten from inactive to active... I hope the GCCF points that out when people ring asking to do that.

the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy

(it's very near the bottom)

Of course not being on the active doesn't deter BYBs


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I can assure you cc your contract would stand in court if has been sign by the new owner before taking the kitten.


That's a sweeping comment as it would depend on the evidence given and the judge on the day. There's no such thing as a certainty in court. It's also completely dependent on the breeder getting that contract signed at the right point - most don't.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I'd be interested to know when the right point is? Would this be when the buyer reserves the kitten (and pays a deposit)?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The right point is BEFORE the buyer pays over a penny. Shoving a contract in front of them on collection if they've already paid anything is pointless. After they've paid any money you are trying to add T&Cs to a completed contract. Even this doesn't guarantee you'd win in court. I can only assume a breeder would be looking for specific performance if they're trying to force an owner into neutering and it isn't cut and dried.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

The contract was signed at the time of collecting the kitten and paying in full, i dont like to take deposits from people so they pay when they collect.

The contract clearly states transfer form will be withheld by the breeder until proof of neutering has been signed and confirmed by the owners vet.

Yes gccf has been good telling me that the owner cant change to active from non active but this doesnt deter the owner going byb.
I was a fool but they was so nice the family and i trusted them to comply with the contract. Guess i have just learnt by my own mistake and will ensure neutering is done before they leave me, luckily mc's are big as kittens so shouldnt be much risk.

All i can hope for is the girl makes so much noise it worries them into neutering.

Court costs so much £70 just to put in a court claim then i dont even know if the judge will say that the person purchased the cat i had for sale so it is there right.... hope im wrong but you never know what is going to happen.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

havoc said:


> The right point is BEFORE the buyer pays over a penny. Shoving a contract in front of them on collection if they've already paid anything is pointless. After they've paid any money you are trying to add T&Cs to a completed contract. Even this doesn't guarantee you'd win in court. I can only assume a breeder would be looking for specific performance if they're trying to force an owner into neutering and it isn't cut and dried.


I have all paperwork signed before any money changes hands BUT how can this be proved..... it cant. (unless this is written in the contract that the owner has signed the said contract before making payment).

This is how byb started by just signing a contract and looked for another byb to use, shame we cant put a stop to them but at lease now i know to neuter early for my own peace of mind.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

You can help prove it by issuing receipts - from a receipt book with numbers - you get a copy and so do they. Make sure all your receipts are dated and make sure that you both sign everything (so even if they can't find it, you have their signature on a sale document 

I think that if I was a breeder I would go down the early neutering route - I couldn't take the worry you guys get from trying to look after your babes! But it is interesting knowing your side - the breeders I have bought from were really fierce to start with and now I really understand why. (I always did think they had the right to sell their babies and choose their owners according to their own values, but I didn't know anything much at all about the risks of selling to bybs).


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I think the only way to ensure a pet isnt used for breeding is to neuter before leaving, then everybody knows where they stand.
It doesnt help that some vets are against EN.
Does anybody know why some vets are against early neutering, ive asked and the only answer ive been given by a vet practise is the kitten goes through so much just with the vaccinations.
Some people enquiring about my kittens have said i dont want the kitten neutered as it affects the growth, is there actually any truth in this statement.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

They are against it because of inexperience. Because everything's so much smaller, you can do more damage, so I guess they're probably frightened.

As for affecting growth, nope. In fact, my biggest are all early neuters. The one boy I've seen from last year's litter is a monster compared to his mum! The only thing it might stop are the hormonal characteristics, i.e development of manly jowles on a British etc.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> The right point is BEFORE the buyer pays over a penny. Shoving a contract in front of them on collection if they've already paid anything is pointless. After they've paid any money you are trying to add T&Cs to a completed contract. Even this doesn't guarantee you'd win in court. I can only assume a breeder would be looking for specific performance if they're trying to force an owner into neutering and it isn't cut and dried.


If your website clearly says all cats will be on the inactive then in following through from there, especially if you state this in email, then in buying one I'd say they are accepting that condition.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If your website clearly says all cats will be on the inactive then in following through from there, especially if you state this in email, then in buying one I'd say they are accepting that condition.


Good luck in front of the judge that thinks pedigree cat breeders are money making machines. You've obviously never heard of 'the four corners of an agreement'.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Verbal contracts are legally binding as well, though hard to prove. 

But, if they send me an email enquiring, I reply 'blah blah and note that any kitten(s) you might buy will be registered on the inactive register and I expect you to neuter them at an appropriate age' and they reply 'no problem' that surely is agreeing to the contract? Indeed it might be viewed as the contract.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> they reply 'no problem' that surely is agreeing to the contract? Indeed it might be viewed as the contract.


A contract is offer, acceptance and consideration. Anything else is T&Cs - and they aren't allowed to be so one sided as to be viewed as unfair. What's unfair? Anything a judge says if someone chooses to have them tested.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Its quicker and easier when younger, the vets find it alot easier as there is less fat and the womb is more viable and easier to see, my friends vet now teaches other vets how to perform EN as he was so shocked how much easier it was then compared to older cats  Boys take 1 miniute quick snip and the balls are out, thats it, the girls take 3 minutes! They are crazy by the time they come home, no collars, they dont bother with their wounds, if you can even see them!

Take a look at taylorbabys thread, she EN her kittens before they leave her, I think she knows of 4 or 5 vets in Essex now, 18months ago it was 1! Doing it, so its really spreading, she knows a few more over the country now so thats good! 

Oh and the stunted growth is a myth, they ar bigger than un neutered cats 

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/140588-reasons-spay-neuters-your-pets.html


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

catlove844 said:


> Take a look at taylorbabys thread, she EN her kittens before they leave her, I think she knows of 4 or 5 vets in Essex now, 18months ago it was 1!


That's wonderful news!

I've heard some vets say it's a finer surgery and they prefer working on a larger body. And I don't know that I'd want to go to someone inexperience in paediatric neutering - though everyone has to start somewhere I suppose. The vets I go to are a breeding specialist clinic so well used to doing it.

Not sure how much quicker little ones are. I know the boy kitten I had done yesterday took less than 3 minutes. The girl wouldn't have been much more and I took them home about an hour later full of beans like nothing had happened.

My first girls contracts didn't allow me to place kittens entire (aside to a reg breeder of course) so not neutering before placement was never an option.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I've been trying to find a vet who will neuter early but it has proven to be quite a challenge. The ones who bothered replying said they will neuter only when the kitten is at least 2kg. Most British Shorthair kittens will not be 2kg at 13 weeks. It wouldn't be surprising if some females are not 2kg at 15 weeks and ideally, I'd like to keep the kitten for at least another week for observation and for recovery which means they can only leave the nest at 16/17 weeks.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Pipje, may well be different over there but if you phone and speak to an actual vet rather than a vet nurse/assistant or secretary the answer can change.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I will try this (hate trying to speak Dutch on the phone though!).

I did ask a vet in real life a few days ago (took my kitten for a check-up) and he said no but he is rather old-fashioned (I would think he's about 80).


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Although breeding of my kitties in pet homes worries me to death, i am still not overly sure about EN, neither of my vets will do it..


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2017)

natashagodber said:


> Hi all, new member here so please go gentle.
> 
> I am here to ask advice as to whether or not to breed my Bengal Queen.
> 
> ...


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Crazyjellybean said:


> How much would you sell a kitten for? My other kitten seems quite lonely


This thread was last active 4 years ago.

Also, this isn't a selling site & we don't allow ads for selling, buying or stud services wanted or offered.


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## Lisa2701 (May 15, 2010)

natashagodber said:


> Think I have figured it out


Wow she is gorgeous!!!!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lucy1012 said:


> Although breeding of my kitties in pet homes worries me to death, i am still not overly sure about EN, neither of my vets will do it..


I didn't decide to buy my original girl until I found a vet who would. There's little good research into EN but what there is suggests it doesn't cause short-term or long-term problems. Withholding papers never stopped a would-be BYB choosing one of your kittens.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

The kitten that I recently fostered was neutered at 1.2kg weight.
The wound was tiny, pretty much invisible....and the kitten recovered very well from the op. EN has to be the way forward to stop unwanted breeding.


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