# Sticky  What to look for in a Trainer or Behaviourist



## RAINYBOW

Please can someone with the knowledge do a thread listing the preferred affiliations and qualifications to look for in a Trainer and behaviourist (obviously it may differ for each). I don't think it is necessary to name specific people 

As we have said in the other ongoing thread this is a minefield for the general public at the moment with franchises popping up all over the place so some general advice could prevent people going down the wrong path and wasting a load of money.

Please can this be merely informative and not a discussion 

Then can we have it as a sticky please :thumbup:

(i don't ask for much do i )


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## katiefranke

Some of the things to consider when choosing a Dog *Trainer* (whether that be for a puppy or an adult dog) should be:

Choosing a Dog Trainer - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK

One of the the MOST important things is to GO ALONG AND WATCH A CLASS before signing up. I think this is so important!! And in fact, if this is your first training class, go to a few and compare before deciding.

As we have said in other threads, affiliations and qualifications are important, but not the only thing to look for - plus, as with anything, there are those that don't abide by the code of conduct/ethics of their affiliation, but they can be reported.

In the UK, a good place to start, would be a trainer registered as a member of the UK APDT (Association of Pet Dog Trainers). They do have a good code of ethics and conduct and will enforce it. If someone does not train by this code, they can be reported and struck off from the membership.

www.apdt.co.uk

You can see here what is required of members to gain membership: http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog_trainer_membership.asp
And here is their code of practice that all trainers must abide by: http://www.apdt.co.uk/about_APDT.asp

This is not to say that anyone not with the APDT is no good, but at least with the above you have some benchmark/come back as such...although still no guarantees, which is why it is very important, no matter what affiliation, that you check what methods they use and go along and watch a class.

For a behaviourist, I think that the criteria should be to a higher level - so will do a separate post on this.


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## Guest

It would also be useful to list those organizations that do not have an assessment or code of conduct, also those that have a system in place to report a trainer for misconduct


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## katiefranke

rona said:


> It would also be useful to list those organizations that do not have an assessment or code of conduct, also those that have a system in place to report a trainer for misconduct


Yes good point...

The APDT definitely has a system in place for this...but will leave to others with more knowledge to confirm which other ones are good/which are not so good...


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## CarolineH

There's an excellent article written here on the APBC page that describes how to become a Pet Behaviour Councellor so I suppose it could also be used as a Guide as to what to look out for? Becoming a Pet Behaviour Counsellor The UKRCB also have a similar article linked on HERE

The UKRCB and APBC are the main two behaviour organisations which most serious, legitimate behaviourists would want to be affiliated to. Most vets will refer to a member of either of these organisations, particularly if the consultation is covered by the owners Insurance policy.

Remember that any individual can set up their own 'Guild' or 'Association' so it is better to stick to the well known ones.


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## leashedForLife

USA behaviorist:

vet-behaviorist: 
*Diplomates*|* American College of Veterinary Behaviorists 
DVMs who go on to board-certify in behavior - can write scrips as well as B-Mod protocol; scarce on the ground, but many will do a long-distance consult, with the local-vet as hands-on for tests, exams, etc, and VIDEO of the dog behavior in Q. 
not cheap but for rare or dangerous behavior, may be irreplaceable.

focal-seizures, OCDs, severe-aggro with damaging bites (not just a few punctures), and similar serious issues, i would say they are the FIRST not last, resort.

CAAB: Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist 
Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists - Animal Behavior Society: Applied Animal Behavior 
since many CAABs partner with a local-vet for scrips, the fall-back for serious or intractable issues if there is no nearby vet-behaviorist, and U cannot get Your Personal Vet to agree to play-nice with a Vet-beh consult (some vets will not co-consult on behavior - a few do not regard it as a valid-specialty, others think they know as much, some just feel its a waste of their time, etc; they are not, thankfully, common).

IAABC: Intl Assoc Animal-Behavior Counselors 
Int. Assoc. of Animal Behavior Consultants 
* have screening + study requirements 
* have ethics agreement 
* have reporting system for violations 
* cover more species - psittacines, equines, etc.
one step below CAAB; still not common, but easier to find 
some specialties/species NOT covered by others, can be found here


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## leashedForLife

Sit-Means-S*it - FRANCHISE 
* anyone can buy in; attend their instruction + business opens
* uses shock to *teach not proof* behavior, whether pup or adult 
* franchisees are limited to approved methods only

Bark Busters - FRANCHISE 
* anyone can buy in; a few weeks instruction, open for business 
* exclusive areas of coverage (non-compete within franchise)

* SPECIFICALLY do not want experienced trainers - 
they want pet-owners, not trainers, as franchisees

* franchisees are limited to approved methods only - 
if it is not covered by the book, they cannot wing it; 
specialties include *shout BAH!*, throw water-balloons + toss bagged-chains 
(corrections or aversives - not teaching but suppressing behaviors)

IACP - Intl Assoc of Canine Pros 
* anyone can join; NO * LIMITS on methods or tools 
* members are specifically FORBIDDEN to campaign against any method or tool 
(helicoptering, shock-collars, hanging, etc)

Animal Behavior College - ABC grads 
* long-distance learning via text + tests for theory 
* a few weeks of hands-on practice + observation with a mentor 
* quality varies; claim of positive-reinforcement not always born-out in practice 
* some are very good; some mediocre; some are awful

PetsMart in-store training - store-brand 
* some good, some very-good, some dreadful 
* supposed to be pos-R but choke-chains, prongs, etc, are not uncommon 
* observe a class at least 2x before signing-up, and get the INSTRUCTOR U observed - 
some stores have 2 to 4 trainers, don;t just grab one - skills vary widely.

* always feel free to OBJECT if something the trainer does makes U uncomfortable - 
be an advocate for Ur dog; rough handling, harsh tools, impatience, etc, are not apropos. 
SHY * DOGS or timid pups are special cases! they may need set-back from the class, calmatives, etc; 
similarly REACTIVE * DOGS - visual-barriers to allow them to concentrate in a group-class, and other extras 
to accommodate their lower-thresholds should be readily available. 
calmatives can also be helpful to reactive-dogs. 
some one-to-one training can help shy or reactive dogs, before attending a group-class. *


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## tripod

Great topic and great resources mentioned :thumbup: thanks all!

Here is a nice list of various acronyms and letters associated with various organisations and certifications. A lot are very US-centric but many are universally relevant.

APBC etc. have been mentioned re behaviourists and I think that its really important that people understand the difference in standard of education and skill required in behaviourists. Thats why an individuals membership of groups with strict standards are so important for behaviourists.

Also COAPE and CAPBT behaviourists.

For trainers you are lucky in the UK to have APDT assessed trainers - super important org.

But these are only places to start - you still want to select from these lists based on other criteria. I have a blog post on choosing a trainer with lots of tips and resources.

There are lots of resources available when it comes to choosing a trainer/behaviourist to suit - the problem is we have to know where to look


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## leashedForLife

this is by no means exhaustive - there are others.

CCPDT: a 3rd-party testing organization 
Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers 
anyone can sit the exam; no organizational affiliation is required.

USA-apdt: Assoc of Pet-Dog Trainers Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources 
____________________________________________________ 
* unlike the UK, no assessment to join 
* 'promotes' dog-friendly training - a considerable dilution from their original 
* open to trainers of any persuasion - 
many shock-trainers who use shock to teach / not proof, 
many-more trainers who use traditional choke, jerk, prong methods + tools, 
JOIN the USA-apdt as a sales tactic; they slap a logo on their website, and continue to train like 1945 drill-sergeants: 
nothing has changed, its just window-dressing. 
* they DO have standards-reporting - 
however, getting a trainer expelled is not easy; conviction of animal cruelty or neglect is about It, really. 
* 2 membership levels: 
# professional: must sit + pass the CCPDT written exam [CPDT = Certified Pet Dog Trainer] 
# full: voting member; has not sat the exam; may be novice to very experienced, full gamut.

* continuing education in the form of monthly newsletter (sadly gone from 3-punch paper to glossy full-color mag) 
and an ANNUAL conference which is terrific - but often geographically impossible; the USA is a big area.

* members-only Yahoo-list has loads of members; few post 
good for newbies to pick-up tips, tho... (shrug)

** trainers with a strong bias to pos-R * can * be found here. *
just be sure of who and what U are getting - if they spout dominance + pack-theory, RUN. 
if they tell U that shock-collars *tickle*, ask them to wear one while U control the remote - 
be sure its operating first by trying it on Ur own forearm.  collars can be turned-off at the receiver. 
____________________________________________

IPDTA: Intl Positive Dog-Trainers Assoc. 
International Positive Dog Training Association 
a small Canadian organization that is (IMO) in the midst of growing-pains; 
founded on the precept of using ONLY non-pain or low-aversive tools and techniques. 
the membership voted on acceptability of tools - chokes, prongs and shock collars are out; 
citronella collars with caution, only; etc. 
* they are few in number, but generally highly-ethical 
* they DO have stringent member-reporting + removal 
* assessment-protocols are in development

TDF: Truly-Dog Friendly 
Truly Dog Friendly » About Truly Dog Friendly 
pretty self-explanatory; SHOCK is entirely off the menu, chokes + prongs are used by very few. 
a very strong bias to pos-R and proactive teaching, vs pos-P or R-/aversives + suppression. 
* Do have a reporting + removal system 
* fairly well-distributed across the USA 
* no membership fee

IACP certification: IACP - Certification 
property of IACP; if for any reason U leave the organization, the certification is gone. 
(excellent for assuring renewals for the future.) no outside assessors or 3rd-party testing; all in-house. 
IMO? not a good telltale.

NADOI: Natl Assoc of Dog Obedience Instructors 
National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors - NADOI | dog trainer | endorsed instructors | find trainers | educational resources 
* do have assessment 
* do have report + remove system 
* stringent - video + in-person assessments may be required 
i was on page-24 of my written application, to be copied IN TRIPLICATE and submitted by mail!, when i realized that 
i had not gotten halfway, yet; i gave up. the prospect of writing an encyclopedia was too daunting. 

CAPPDT: Canada 
other than they exist, i know nothing about them - 
Canadian Association of Professional Pet Dog Trainers


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## leashedForLife

* IAABC - 
see USA list

* APDT-Aus: the Australian Assoc of Pet-Dog Trainers 
http://tinyurl.com/y5tnjcm 
* must be voted-in by membership 
* must be attested by other members 
* does have *report + remove* system 
* does not ALLOW shock-collars or prong-collars - 
and i doubt choke-chains will last much longer

* strong bias to pos-R + teaching vs pos-P/neg-R aversives + suppression 
* annual conference in Australia 
* members-only list on-line

there may be others - if so, i have not heard of them.


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## CarolineH

RAINYBOW said:


> As we have said in the other ongoing thread this is a minefield for the general public at the moment with franchises popping up all over the place so some general advice could prevent people going down the wrong path and wasting a load of money.
> 
> Please can this be merely informative and not a discussion
> 
> Then can we have it as a sticky please :thumbup:
> 
> (i don't ask for much do i )


*I second that. This would be brilliant as a sticky ! :thumbsup:*


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## billyboysmammy

Excellent idea for a sticky. Considering this is the behaviour and training section, having a thread we could refer people to when the best advice might be to choose a behaviourist would be great.

The behaviourist i used for miso was apdt registered, very experienced and i witnessed her in a group class before i decided to use her.

I also "viewed" a few other behaviourists in my area, including the one associated with my vets. She is also apdt registered yet her methods featured too much shouting and punishment for my liking. 

My biggest piece of advice (after using somewhere like apdt) would be to visit the behaviourists and view them teaching, pop along to a class to see how they really are with the dogs they are helping.


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## tripod

billyboysmammy said:


> Excellent idea for a sticky. Considering this is the behaviour and training section, having a thread we could refer people to when the best advice might be to choose a behaviourist would be great.
> 
> The behaviourist i used for miso was apdt registered, very experienced and i witnessed her in a group class before i decided to use her.
> 
> I also "viewed" a few other behaviourists in my area, including the one associated with my vets. She is also apdt registered yet her methods featured too much shouting and punishment for my liking.
> 
> My biggest piece of advice (after using somewhere like apdt) would be to visit the behaviourists and view them teaching, pop along to a class to see how they really are with the dogs they are helping.


APDT Uk have a very thorough reporting system and the only way to protect pets and their people is to use it when appropriate if you feel that a trainers actions don't comply with the code of ethics.

Sticky is a good idea :thumbup:


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## billyboysmammy

hiya i have reported it, hwoever her methods are approved by them, just not as kind as i would prefer them to be, which is why i suggest you go and see the behaviourist and or trainer in action before committing to them.


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## tripod

billyboysmammy said:


> hiya i have reported it, hwoever her methods are approved by them, just not as kind as i would prefer them to be, which is why i suggest you go and see the behaviourist and or trainer in action before committing to them.


WOW really....thats a little worrying, any more detail? PM if you prefer


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## k8t

Hi

I agree with BillyBoysMammy, although someone may be an APDT member, do go and check it out first.

I know a member who was assessed with excellent results, but will still shout at the dogs and has been known to grab the lead and shut one away in the storeroom. It probably doesn't do the dog any harm - he is a noisy b....r, but probably not what the APDT would adcovate!

APBC is a different thing all together and a lot more care is taken over making sure those who are members, do have the right knowledge.

Kate


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## billyboysmammy

pm'd you but for the benefit of the thread.

The behaviourists methods were sound and in keeping with reward based training... the execution was off.

She did not hit or be intentionally cruel. But she would pull a to harshly sharply on the lead, and shout a little too loudly and agressively. Far too much for miso who at the time was having difficulty adjusting and displaying lots of fear signals and fear aggro.

The type of training is in keeping with apdt ethos but her own personality/administration of the training was off for me.

I am not in any way saying anything against the apdt though, they are fantastic, but like everything you need to assess yourself and not just take everything on face value xx


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## tripod

Thanks  but to me leash corrections and shouting/aggressive behaviour is not in keeping with reward based training and should not be acceptable to an organisation that stand for this. 'tis all very interesting


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## lucysnewmum

tripod said:


> Thanks  but to me leash corrections and shouting/aggressive behaviour is not in keeping with reward based training and should not be acceptable to an organisation that stand for this. 'tis all very interesting


i second that! sharp leash corrections can cause neck damage and shouting is aggression in itself so hardly in keeping with the reward based ethos.

i am an online graduate with the Academy of Dog Training and Behaviour (ADTB). whilst i admit that online courses can leave a lot to be desired, i have taken this course in part to show that i have at least studied the topics that i will be teaching and also for financial reasons (it was one of the most affordable to me at the time). i back up the knowledge gained from this course with over 30 years of experience of handling, showing, breeding, and training dogs of all kinds. The ADTB is a fee paying membership and they do have a code of practise which states that no trainer will use any methods of training likely to cause harm or distress to the dog. There are contact details of their trainers readily available to non members and also details of who to complain to in the event of a trainer using unsuitable or unacceptable methods.

http://www.dogtraining-online.co.uk/courses.html
Gilly


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## jmslee123

First of all he is an experienced person.His behaviour are looking so good.The past experience with other dogs and other dogs whose issues have been resolved with accurate and health procedures.Reputation is everything.I would suggest working at rescues training there and get experience through that.


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## Horse and Hound

I am lucky in that I was searching for a dog traininer in Preston and came accross www.dog-tastic.net.

I clicked on the link and the name jumped out at me. "I know him" and then it twigged. I used to go horse riding with his daughter and we used to be best mates at primary/ most of high school but lost touch until last year when she turned up at our yard asking to move her horses on.

So I rang him, and then reminded him who I was and we had a bit of a chat about Rupert. What I liked most was that I've seen him in action with his dogs before and was impressed. He never got angry, violent, but his tone of voice would always cut it.

SO we signed up. £30 for a 5 week course. Plus he said he'll do some home visits for me as well as I'm round the corner! :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife

Horse and Hound said:


> Plus he said he'll do some home visits for me as well as I'm round the corner! :thumbup:


ummm - H-H, not all of us will have a past personal-relationship from childhood with the dog 
(or horse) trainer that we choose.  knowing somebody from childhood is not a BAD thing - 
but its not a professional affiliation, either.

from the posted link - 


> Non food based training, using the dog´s natural instincts, and taking the Alpha role are the keys to what Mark teaches.


other than telling us that 
* he does not use food to reward 
* he thinks -Pack-theory- is correct + needed for training 
this is very un-informative; what does *using the dogs natural instincts* mean? 
turn an agility-trained cat loose on the course with a head-start, and have the untrained dog chase after? 
vague descriptions and catch-phrases are not what i use to choose a trainer.

i want to know - 
* with what professional-org are they affiliated? 
* what specific tools do they use? 
* which trainers are their mentors or role-models?

*links-pages * are used by most educational or outreach trainers to point pet-owners to reliable sources - 
how-to pages on housetraining, preventing nuisance-barking, introducing a new pet safely... 
*his include used-cars and water-colors - * its a networking opportunity for local businesses, 
which is fine if i want a used-car in that area, or a landscape-painting featuring my dog, 
but it gives me no useful info about dogs, their care, training, living with other pets, etc.

that website would not have me calling for an appointment,  sorry.

this is an *articles* page that includes a great number of external *links* as well - 
Dog Training and Behavior Information

from this i can get helpful information for myself, Plus see the underpinning philosophies of the trainers - 
which is important to me.

this is *michelles* home-page - Your Mannerly Mutt, Inc. Dog Training, Behavior Modification - from it, i can see 
* she does not use shock-collars 
* she is an apdt-USA member 
* she is a TDF-trainer 
* she does not use coercion - so choke-collars + prong-collars are out.

just that one page is more-info than the gentlemans entire website, IMO. 
JMO + IME, i realize that this is a friend - its not a personal criticism, 
--- terry


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## Nick Jones

Read this with interest thanks all.

There are as you can see a wide range of organisations to go to and find a trainer/behaviourist. No specific route is 'the best' route. Find a trainer you trust and can relate to. My customers have varying needs based on the owner type, the breed type, and the behaviour presented. No one single method or system is in itself the right way. Flexibility is essential for the best outcome.

Naturally, heavy or abusive handling should be avoided, and I encourage folk to research thoroughly anyone they consider working with.

I have not long written an article on this very subject, and you can find it here: How to Find the Right Dog Behaviourist

Forgive the odd self promotional tint as it was aimed for my blog really, and then printed in this mag I have just started writing for.

Thanks for allowing me to contribute


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## Nick Jones

Wow, never knew I'd be posting into such a political atmosphere!

Sorry you're disappointed, but it seems you've quite a bit of time and energy to run with a negative line, so I'll refrain from responding directly. In fact, I'm at a loss as to where to start!

Good luck to the OP, and all the points I offered were given in a sincere spirit to offer links and further advice to a variety of organisations, most of which I am _not_ affiliated to.

I am a full member to the CFBA here in the UK. As full members we are recognised for a high level of professionalism, and this does allow some clients to claim our fees via their insurance should the policy allow it. The APBC is the other UK body that can do this. There may be others.

Thank you.

Nick


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## leashedForLife

here are some useful links in recent research - (abstract) 
Elsevier

here is a quick-view of that 9-page article - 
Powered by Google Docs

and a 2009 overview of *dominance* in published-articles - 
_2009 Journal of Veterinary Behaviors review of dominance in domestic dogs. 
Written by John W.S. Bradshaw, Emily J. Blackwell and Rachel A. Casey _ 
Research on dominance in domestic dogs - Community Training Partners Program - Best Friends Network

all my best, 
--- terry


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## lucysnewmum

have just received an email from Compass Education following up on an enquiry i made about their courses (OCN accredited). 
the following excerpt may be of interest to you all regarding trainers and behaviourists.

Hello Gilly
Thank you for your enquiry. There is a system of regulation being put into place for training and behaviour practitioners that will require membership of approved organisations if you are to be put on the national register (see The Animal Behaviour and Training Council). Studying with Compass will provide you with the credentials to apply for membership of the UKRCB once you are registered on the Adv Diploma Canine Behaviour Management.
I have attached the application form for this course to assess whether there is any need for any preparatory studies which I would be obliged if you could complete and return it at your convenience

it is my understanding that the ABTC council has been set up as the difinitive governing body for all trainers and behaviourists and no matter what organisation they are members of (fee paying or not) their credibility will soley ride on being accepted onto this new register.

the down side of all this is that many good trainers and behaviourists will not be able to afford the study level and/or have the experience to qualify. late starters in life such as myself (i have over 30 years hands on experience and several years of private research into canine behaviour) will find that they do not meet the very high criteria


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## leashedForLife

lucysnewmum said:


> ...(see The Animal Behaviour and Training Council).


wow! :001_tt1: i love the roster of orgs - 
The Animal Behaviour and Training Council

and the * promoting welfare * page is very promising - 


> EXCERPT -
> 
> _By promoting responsible and well qualified practitioners, the use of methods that are designed to train animals through aversion will be minimised. The humane treatment of animals undergoing training or behaviour therapy will be at the forefront of education and training of practitioners.
> 
> Public education campaigns through the media and various animal related networks will be aimed at providing information for owners, handlers and keepers of animals regarding humane treatment of animals undergoing training and behaviour therapy and their responsibilities under current animal welfare legislation.
> 
> Member organisations of the Council will have a robust Code of Practice for practitioners to adhere to in the execution of their work that is appropriate to any specialised practice. They will also operate a complaints and disciplinary procedure that will investigate any suggestion of malpractice in a prompt and transparent manner. _


i am thrilled to see that they will be building a Code of Practice and investigating complaints - excellent! :thumbup:

thanks so much, LNM, 
- terry


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## lucysnewmum

its all well and good in theory Terri....like i said at the bottom of my post....what of the trainers who have qualifications that are not from member organisations? do they suddenly become worthless? dont get me wrong i am all for a regulatory body of this kind and on the face of it this looks like it has been well thought out...well structured and could bring uniformity to the training/behaviourist industry in this country but there is a rather worrying edict on one of the pages that states there will be a cut off point from which no one will be given the time to improve their qualifications!!!! 

that doesnt sound right to me. surely the way forward would be to accept any trainer/behaviourist ON THEIR OWN MERITS and then coach them into the APPROVED teaching and practising methods whilst building on their theoretical knowledge???? this sounds like it will become elitist very quickly. i can already see 4 organisations that operate really good training classes that are not member organisations and therefore their trainers would be disqualified from becoming registered.


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## CarolineH

lucysnewmum said:


> the down side of all this is that many good trainers and behaviourists will not be able to afford the study level and/or have the experience to qualify. late starters in life such as myself (i have over 30 years hands on experience and several years of private research into canine behaviour) will find that they do not meet the very high criteria


Sadly very true. So therefore it would become an association for the better off dog behaviourists and much talent would not be recognised due to lack of ample funds for the educational standard required.


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## leashedForLife

lucysnewmum said:


> i can already see 4 organisations that operate really good training classes that are not member organisations and therefore their trainers would be disqualified from becoming registered.


there is nothing that prevents the individual-organization from joining, also - 
 i have already suggested that they approach the Aussie small-animal vets assoc. 
the more, the merrier!... :thumbup:

joining the APDT-uk is not enormously expensive, is it? 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife

Trainer Tails: Everyone is a dog trainer

*tripod* posted this article elsewhere - its excellent; the very familiarity and common presence of dogs, 
seen all about, makes folks who have never lived with a dog or reared a pup think, _*ah, how hard can it be? 
that numpty *bob* down the lane has a 90# Rott-mix, and he cannot chew gum + walk simultaneously... 
how much work can one puppy be?... * really, if U are asking that, U have no clue.  _

trainers would all prefer to be INSTRUCTORS + teach the dog-owner to handle, teach + polish their own - 
but some owners are truly unsuited as teachers, being impatient, harsh, assuming knowledge the dog lacks, etc.

i do not expect the average dog-owner to *fix* a dog with serious problem-behaviors - 
but it boggles me when APOs find potty-training impossible, or cannot teach a pup to SIT on cue. 
just as any parent should be able to teach their child to transition from diaper to toilet, and from BEING dressed 
to GETTING dressed, so should the APO be savvy-enuf to teach simple basic-manners - any good puppy-class 
or basic-manners course should cover these well.

JMO + IME - Ur mileage may vary, 
--- terry


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## newfiesmum

I would only add, don't use anyone who does not ask what breed your dog is when you book OR when she gets there, despite having been told the breed, has not bothered to look the breed up or know anything about it.

The one I had out to help get Ferdie over his fear of the car, told me that he needed 2 hours run every day. This despite being told he was a newfoundland and only ten months old, at which age they should not be allowed to run for more than five or ten minutes.

Also beware of anyone who is overly keen on selling you things!


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## newfiesmum

Horse and Hound said:


> SO we signed up. £30 for a 5 week course. Plus he said he'll do some home visits for me as well as I'm round the corner! :thumbup:


Did he give you a big discount? That sounds awfully cheap to me!


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## newfiesmum

I think another important question is how much you would expect to pay a qualified behaviourist? I have found one on the internet who I know follows Jan Fennell and she is charging £195 for a session, usually 3 hours. Do you think this is reasonable?


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## CarolineH

£65 an hour is not, IMHO, reasonable. Also I am sorry if I offend anyone, but I don't rate the 'listener' way of qualifying that highly and from some of the 'followers/listeners I have heard of, I don't rate their level of education that highly either. Some individuals may be good but you to simply do a 1, 2 and a 3 day course (followed by an online course - look them up and you will see how easy it is to 'qualify' ) and then declare yourself a 'listener', 'whisperer' etc, no matter how much money you have paid for the privilige, is not enough. Becoming a person proficient in training methods, behaviour modification, understanding body language and how a dog thinks and learns etc takes years of dedication to education and lots of hands on experience and practice as well as learning from a variety of sources.


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## leashedForLife

newfiesmum said:


> ...how much you would expect to pay a qualified behaviourist?
> I have found one on the internet who... follows Jan Fennell...
> she [charges] £195 for a session, usually 3 hours.


i would not refer to a *fennel-listener* as a *qualified behaviorist*  a CAAB, COAPE, or vet-behaviorist 
is a 'behaviorist' - generally a minimum of a Bachelor of Science in animal-behavior, or a Doctorate 
in a closely-related field.

*vet-behaviorists* are DVMs who go on to qualify as board-certified specialists, just like ortho-surgeon, 
k9-cardio, or any other board-certified specialty.

their services are not cheap - but if they solve the problem, is it worth the cost?

OTOH - getting help for 'free' does nothing, if it makes the problem worse - 
or even leaves it just as bad as before - 
U have still lost the time + effort, and the dog gets more-fluent at the un-desirable behavior 
with every passing day of continuing practice.

buying the best is IMO imperative for any serious behavior issue: aggression, etc.

for everyday dog-species behaviors like jumping-up, any decent pos-R trainer should be adequate - 
or if there are none but punitive or aversive trainers, GET A GOOD BOOK - 
Click to Calm, Control Unleashed, 
I'll be Home Soon [sep-anx], 
Mine! [resource-guarding], 
Fight! [dog-fights], and so on.

hiring a franchisee with a few weeks training and a big-debt to pay off is not IMO a good choice; 
paying a casual trainer who has no credentials or any known mentor? _*ridiculous. *_

paying someone to SUPPRESS the behavior with aversives - prong, shock, choke, slip-lead, etc - 
has not advanced the cause, IME - that only delays treatment and worsens the prognosis.

choose carefully, 
- terry


----------



## newfiesmum

leashedForLife said:


> i would not refer to a *fennel-listener* as a *qualified behaviorist*


Neither would I. It was just the only one I could find that actually quoted a price and I thought it was a bit much, considering she has no qualifications but has just "done a course" like so many others.


----------



## nfp20

blimey you can get a good regular training class for £3 (our club for an example does a gundog training class at Rusper for £3 and it all goes to rescue!) You can do gundog training even if you don't own a gundog breed the basics are brilliant for teaching good behaviour outside as its basic obedience. You might take a bit of stick though ignor them :thumbup:

I like a trainer who has the same ethics I have down to earth but kind. I'm afraid I don't do clicker I can't stand the noise but its a good method if like any other training its used correctly. If they rough handle I'm afraid they get a sharp lesson from me and we don't stay in the class.:thumbup:


----------



## hazel pritchard

I have been on the look out for a trainer for one of our dogs, hes now 3 yrs old, and we have had a number of dogs in the past, all living to ripe old ages but this dog is really hard work, we took him to puppy classes where he did ok in that enviroment,but outside hes another matter we have had a behaviourist to the house for awhile ,but he is still hard work, we took him agility training where he is very fast , but his concentration goes off very easy so he would jump out of or slip under the ring fences,
we have spent a small fortune on trainers but in the end get told "hes high spirited" !!!!!!!!!!!!,
so now have just got to accept probley for the next 13 yrs ive got a dog who is hard work,,:scared:


----------



## newfiesmum

Unfortunately, anybody can set themselves up and call themselves a trainer or a behaviourist, and a lot of them have only watched a few episodes of the Dog Whisperer, or if you are very lucky, Its me or the Dog.

Whilst waiting in the queue at the supermarket today I was talking to a woman who told me her daughter had 17 dogs and she is behaviourist. Now I never said, but this was the silly cow who I had out to try to get Ferdie over his fear of the car. She doesn't even like dogs, that was patently obvious and hadn't got a clue. She demanded that he be put out in the mornings as soon as he gets up. Why? He was ten months old and fully housetrained. She didn't have an answer. And none of that had anything to do with getting him in the car. She also told me he needed an hours run every morning and every afternoon. Err, excuse me? A giant breed that is still growing shouldn't be running for more than five minutes. She hadn't even bothered to look up the breed. Needless to say, she never succeeded in getting him in the car and did nothing more than I had been trying myself, only without the titbits.

This woman has 17 zoo specimens, in fact, because they are never allowed in the house, kept outside in kennels all the time, and she has one of each breed. A collector, in fact.

You need someone on the recognised dog trainer lists such as the APBC or ADTB.


----------



## leashedForLife

newfiesmum said:


> *bold + "_" added - *
> 
> Whilst... in the queue at the supermarket today I [talked] to a woman [whose] daughter [has] 17 dogs and *"she is behaviourist".*
> [her daughter] was the silly cow [taht] I had out to try to get Ferdie over his fear of the car. [SNIP]...
> This woman has 17 zoo specimens, in fact, because they are never allowed in the house, kept outside in kennels all the time, and she has one of each breed. A collector, in fact.


*yipe.......*


----------



## hazel pritchard

I have had reg trainers ,try to help with us and the dog, i also have a sister who has been trainer for over 30 yrs and all just throw hands in air after trying to train our dog !!!! :scared:


----------



## leashedForLife

daphnesy said:


> * Past experience with other dogs and other dogs whose issues have been resolved with accurate and health procedures
> * Knows and has an advanced field of knowledge in a dogs body language, signs. ect Knows the different temperaments that occur in each breed, knows a little about genetics and the different of attention spans/learning time of certain dogs either fast or slow.
> * Often uses tools or hands on contact to help the dog and offers useful techniques that I can use at home. The trainer must also have time, patience and understanding of certain dogs needs and be able to identify with the dogs needs.
> * The person should also make educated assumptions based on the dogs past events or events that took place in the dogs life such as neglect, abuse, rather the dog was a fighting dog, or if it had little or no socialization with dogs.
> * Should be able to quickly find analyzes and create a diagnoses of a dogs issue and be able to explain it clearly.


* horse manure - * this is just a SALES PITCH - here's the *"join"* page for that signature link: 
puppy training classes = http://www.woofdogtrainingacademy.com/join/

Edited to add - (6:30-pm, Wed Dec-8)
either *daphne or an unknown moderator removed the sig-link, as i reported it to the mods at approx 12:45-am, and it was already gone when *westie-ma* responded - 
i am keeping this cautionary note here, as the many SALES PITCHES for such 'e-books', subscription services, trainers-ads, etc, all use similar promises of wonderful results, 
speed, guarantees, and so on. remember - if it sounds too-good to be true, it generally is. :huh:


> "Yes, I want instant membership access to Woof's The Dog Training Academy. I want to fix all of my dog's problem behaviors - quickly, easily and permanently - without laying a hands him, or hiring an expensive trainer!
> 
> I understand that I'll get proven, ethical, and effective training strategies and tools on a monthly basis starting
> at $2.95 for 14-days. After 14 days, if I decide to keep my membership I understand I'll be charged the low
> monthly rate of only $19.95 from there on out.
> 
> I know I can rest easy knowing that you offer a no hassle money-back guarantee which allows me to try out The Dog Training Academy for 14 days risk-free.
> 
> Sign Up Right Now and Put A Stop To your Dog's Annoying Problem Behaviors Once and for All
> ---------------------------------------
> But hurry, this $2.95 two-week subscription trial won't last long - so join now to avoid disappointment!
> Here's to your well-trained dog…
> 
> To A Happy Home,
> Craig Anthony


so where is "Craig" and who is "*daphne*"? :thumbdown: 
- terry


----------



## The Dog Woman

newfiesmum said:


> You need someone on the recognised dog trainer lists such as the APBC or ADTB.


This doesn't make them good, it only makes them 'qualified'. 
I have sat in front of countless so-called 'qualified' people in various fields, all of whom knew the theory of their subject inside out, but were hopeless at putting it into practice.
It's rather like remembering your favourite teacher at school. That special something made them stand out. 
It was the way they reached you and hit all the right buttons.
Why don't we remember ALL our teachers in the same light? because they didn't connect with us in the same way.

It's the same with this.

It doesn't matter whether a person has letters after their name, have spent hundreds of pounds with an organisation to get some kind of visible diploma/certificate/qualification. if they can't come up with the goods and convince you that they're good, and prove it too... then all their posturing is worth diddly-squat.
It's the same with anybody with nothing to their name, and nothing to show for their claims.

It all comes down to results. And sometimes, you have to sift through a lot of lost marbles before coming up with a triumph.

In the end, it unfortunately just boils down to trial, error and personal experience.

Even in the so-called realms of Accreditation, qualification and certification, there is such a broad spectrum of opinion, theory and education, that it simply cannot be standardised....It's a minefield, and much as credible organisations are doing their very best to make good this anomaly, it's an uphill struggle, with all these new associations, clubs, organisations companies and bodies getting in on the act.

~~~~~

I completely agree with the following:.



> its all well and good in theory Terri....like i said at the bottom of my post....*what of the trainers who have qualifications that are not from member organisations? do they suddenly become worthless? *dont get me wrong i am all for a regulatory body of this kind and on the face of it this looks like it has been well thought out...well structured and could bring uniformity to the training/behaviourist industry in this country but there is a rather worrying edict on one of the pages that states there will be a cut off point from which no one will be given the time to improve their qualifications!!!!
> 
> that doesnt sound right to me. surely *the way forward would be to accept any trainer/behaviourist ON THEIR OWN MERITS and then coach them into the APPROVED teaching and practising methods whilst building on their theoretical knowledge????* this sounds like it will become elitist very quickly. i can already see 4 organisations that operate really good training classes that are not member organisations and therefore their trainers would be disqualified from becoming registered.


----------



## newfiesmum

The Dog Woman said:


> This doesn't make them good, it only makes them 'qualified'.
> I have sat in front of countless so-called 'qualified' people in various fields, all of whom knew the theory of their subject inside out, but were hopeless at putting it into practice.
> It's rather like remembering your favourite teacher at school. That special something made them stand out.
> It was the way they reached you and hit all the right buttons.
> Why don't we remember ALL our teachers in the same light? because they didn't connect with us in the same way.
> 
> It's the same with this.
> 
> It doesn't matter whether a person has letters after their name, have spent hundreds of pounds with an organisation to get some kind of visible diploma/certificate/qualification. if they can't come up with the goods and convince you that they're good, and prove it too... then all their posturing is worth diddly-squat.
> It's the same with anybody with nothing to their name, and nothing to show for their claims.
> 
> It all comes down to results. And sometimes, you have to sift through a lot of lost marbles before coming up with a triumph.
> 
> In the end, it unfortunately just boils down to trial, error and personal experience.
> 
> Even in the so-called realms of Accreditation, qualification and certification, there is such a broad spectrum of opinion, theory and education, that it simply cannot be standardised....It's a minefield, and much as credible organisations are doing their very best to make good this anomaly, it's an uphill struggle, with all these new associations, clubs, organisations companies and bodies getting in on the act.
> 
> ~~~~~
> 
> :.


Strange as it may seem, I actually agree with you! The reason I, personally, point out the appropriate organisations is to try to prevent an innocent from going to someone like the useless cow I had the misfortune of getting (see my earlier post on this thread). If you don't know any better, and don't have any personal recommendation, far better to spend your money on someone who is recognised that take your chances with someone who does not know one end of a dog from the other.

This woman firstly seemed to be annoyed that Ferdie was well behaved without any assistance from her, new nothing whatever about giant breeds and tried to tell me he should have two hours run per day, at the age of ten months, and also tried to tell me that he had to go out as soon as he woke up. He was ten months old and fully housetrained, so I could see no reasoning behind this, and when I bluntly asked her for a reason, she did not have one. I called her out because he was afraid of the car. She just tried the same things I had already tried, and never managed to get him in.

The second lady I had, who was recommended, had no qualifications that I know of, but she did get him in with lots of games and treats and I would recommend her to anyone.

Just don't want people falling into the wrong hands, that's all.


----------



## Cleo38

We have our first session with a behaviourist today - am just off in a bit. She is registered with APDT, CABT & COAPE & sounded really good when I spoke to her previously. 

Fingers crossed it will go well & she can give me some more advice regarding my new dog.


----------



## tripod

Everyone has horror stories about this professional and that but the fact is that the training and behaviour industries are totally unregulated. As such there must be somewhere to start and membership to professional organisations that have minimum standards and strict ethics is a crucial start.

That's all it is however, a start. Like with any professional after that its buyer beware and assessment of a potential hire is a must.

A thorough analysis of the short lists websites is a good place to start with after that. Narrow it down and then interview AND observe the chosen few. Its your money and its your dog's health so be no less thorough than that. 

Ridiculing or dismissing someone because they have qualifications and standards is silly and downright dangerous. As I have said already in this thread somewhere, other healthcare professionals require minimum standards of education AND experience so why shouldn't one of the crucial links - behavioural, emotional and psychological health is as important as physiological health.
But the attitude in society is that it isn't and this is one of the reasons that outdated, disproven and downright inaccuracies about dogs and dog behaviour still form the basis for training and behaviour modification. And dogs continue to suffer.


----------



## newfiesmum

tripod said:


> Everyone has horror stories about this professional and that but the fact is that the training and behaviour industries are totally unregulated. As such there must be somewhere to start and membership to professional organisations that have minimum standards and strict ethics is a crucial start.
> 
> That's all it is however, a start. Like with any professional after that its buyer beware and assessment of a potential hire is a must.
> 
> A thorough analysis of the short lists websites is a good place to start with after that. Narrow it down and then interview AND observe the chosen few. Its your money and its your dog's health so be no less thorough than that.
> 
> Ridiculing or dismissing someone because they have qualifications and standards is silly and downright dangerous. As I have said already in this thread somewhere, other healthcare professionals require minimum standards of education AND experience so why shouldn't one of the crucial links - behavioural, emotional and psychological health is as important as physiological health.
> But the attitude in society is that it isn't and this is one of the reasons that outdated, disproven and downright inaccuracies about dogs and dog behaviour still form the basis for training and behaviour modification. And dogs continue to suffer.


Certainly agree with that. There was a time when anybody with a driving licence could set themselves up as a driving instructor, even if they had only just passed their test. How dangerous was that? Now, of course, it is illegal and imprisonable to charge for driving lessons if you do not hold the proper licence.

I don't expect dog behaviour to come under a similar law for many, many years, but it is important to be able to point people in the right direction.


----------



## The Dog Woman

newfiesmum said:


> Strange as it may seem, I actually agree with you! The reason I, personally, point out the appropriate organisations is to try to prevent an innocent from going to someone like the useless cow I had the misfortune of getting (see my earlier post on this thread).
> (. . .)
> 
> The second lady I had, who was recommended, had no qualifications that I know of, but she did get him in with lots of games and treats and I would recommend her to anyone.
> 
> Just don't want people falling into the wrong hands, that's all.


I completely concur with the whole of your post. But unfortunately, the only way sometimes, that people know to not fall into the wrong hands - is to find them in the first place!



tripod said:


> Everyone has horror stories about this professional and that but the fact is that the training and behaviour industries are totally unregulated. As such there must be somewhere to start and membership to professional organisations that have minimum standards and strict ethics is a crucial start.
> 
> That's all it is however, a start. Like with any professional after that its buyer beware and assessment of a potential hire is a must.


Yes, I see your point, and I do agree with this. It has to start from somewhere....



> _Ridiculing or dismissing someone because they have qualifications and standards is silly and downright dangerous. _


I would hope you are not referring to me...I am doing nothing of the kind....
I'm referring to those who have qualifications and standards - yet are still absolutely hopeless at what they do. There should be a better and more frequent assessment system. like a probationary/apprentice period....



> _As I have said already in this thread somewhere, other healthcare professionals require minimum standards of education AND experience so why shouldn't one of the crucial links - behavioural, emotional and psychological health is as important as physiological health._


I agree, they are, but there doesn't seem to be one set, standard, widely approved-of or generally accepted methodology. And two doctors have been struck off in my neck of the woods alone, in the past year, for malpractice. And one was a Consultant. So even in the sectors where one would think a set register of regulation and guidelines exists, some still get through the net. I'm just saying, nothing is infallible, no system will ever bring perfection. No matter how well-intentioned the original premise....



> _But the attitude in society is that it isn't and this is one of the reasons that outdated, disproven and downright inaccuracies about dogs and dog behaviour still form the basis for training and behaviour modification. And dogs continue to suffer._


What would you suggest....?
It's all very well decrying matters as they stand, but do you have an alternative that might work better?

And please take nothing above as intentionally argumentative or contrary. I think responsible people (such as I hope we are), are those who can move mountains if we join forces....


----------



## newfiesmum

The Dog Woman said:


> I completely concur with the whole of your post. But unfortunately, the only way sometimes, that people know to not fall into the wrong hands - is to find them in the first place!


But an inexperienced dog owner, one who has never had a dog before, might not know they have fallen into the wrong hands. Someone has a website and bit of signwriting on the side of their vehicle, saying they are a dog behaviourist, and people believe it. Then the person comes, talks a load of rubbish, and people believe it, which does more harm to the dog and the relationship with its owner than if they had just let well alone.

Luckily for me, I am not an inexperienced dog owner and knew about my particular breed before I bought him, or I could have ended with a dog with damaged joints because of her. She was also more interested in selling me things than anything else and even seemed put out that I was feeding him Royal Canin instead of something cheap, so she couldn't sell me any dog food.

I had just never come across a dog who had a fear of the car before. My retriever never liked it much, but he still went in and you can't exactly pick up a newfie and lift him in, can you?

Now he just jumps in, all thanks to the second lady I had out.


----------



## The Dog Woman

newfiesmum said:


> But an inexperienced dog owner, one who has never had a dog before, might not know they have fallen into the wrong hands. Someone has a website and bit of signwriting on the side of their vehicle, saying they are a dog behaviourist, and people believe it. Then the person comes, talks a load of rubbish, and people believe it, which does more harm to the dog and the relationship with its owner than if they had just let well alone.


Yes, I agree with this, and I've come across owners who have fallen for this,and it's heartbreaking. But the fact is, that a lot of the time, the idiots setting themselves up as Dog Trainers/behaviourists, who turn out to be inept, do nothing to cure a problem. What's more, it's highly likely they actually either make the problem worse, or create new ones. And this prompts the owners to have to do more, unfortunately. 
I say 'unfortunately', because the "more" is not always constructive, sadly.



> Luckily for me, I am not an inexperienced dog owner and knew about my particular breed before I bought him, or I could have ended with a dog with damaged joints because of her. She was also more interested in selling me things than anything else and even seemed put out that I was feeding him Royal Canin instead of something cheap, so she couldn't sell me any dog food.


Sometimes, the only cure for this attitude is a bullet to the back of the head. It's so much kinder, don't you think...??  (I _am_ kidding....!)

I love reading your posts.... You're precisely the kind of person a good behaviourist loves to work with. Or more accurately, is delighted they actually _don't_ have to work with too much, if at all!



> _I had just never come across a dog who had a fear of the car before. My retriever never liked it much, but he still went in and you can't exactly pick up a newfie and lift him in, can you?_


My own personal experience was that my dog was not so much afraid of the car, as what getting into the car resulted in.
Travelling along at weird speeds, through all kinds of places she had no clue about, and in something that she had no control over....That's why she was so resistant to getting in at all.
It took a while but once I got her confident in getting into the car, after a while she was as comfortable about getting into the car as she was about going up and down stairs.



> _Now he just jumps in, all thanks to the second lady I had out._


I'm so glad you found a good 'un! Well done you......!


----------



## newfiesmum

I think with Ferdie he was more scared of where he might be going. When we got him he had already had a hernia operation, so it is likely that his only trip in the car was to something unpleasant. Then his second time in the car he had to leave his playmates and come away with us.

Once we had taken him somewhere he liked a few times, I didn't need the ramp or the treats any more because he couldn't wait to get in. I still have to lift Joshua in, with my son's help, because he has arthritis in his front knees and I am not sure he has the strength to lift himself up. I won't try to teach him to get in by himself, just in case he does himself more damage.


----------



## The Dog Woman

newfiesmum said:


> I think with Ferdie he was more scared of where he might be going. When we got him he had already had a hernia operation, so it is likely that his only trip in the car was to something unpleasant. Then his second time in the car he had to leave his playmates and come away with us.


Excellent point. Worth looking at the history, of course....!



> _Once we had taken him somewhere he liked a few times, I didn't need the ramp or the treats any more because he couldn't wait to get in. I still have to lift Joshua in, with my son's help, because he has arthritis in his front knees and I am not sure he has the strength to lift himself up. I won't try to teach him to get in by himself, just in case he does himself more damage._


Oh bless.... Bet you'd NEVER swap him for a yorkie though.....
Your dogs sound wonderful.
I knew a girl in France who had a Newfie, and she couldn't go swimming in the river, unless her husband took him off for a walk to distract him... otherwise she couldn't get further than ankle-deep before he tried to shove her out.....

Sorry. O/T.


----------



## newfiesmum

The Dog Woman said:


> Oh bless.... Bet you'd NEVER swap him for a yorkie though.....
> Your dogs sound wonderful.


I wouldn't swap my Joshie Washie for anything. He is a real sweetheart, really well behaved, very calm, walks on just his collar and lead. I am planning on applying for him to be a PAT dog, because he is so calm. He costs me a fortune in medicines and as he is only two, will hopefully go on for a long time yet.

I am not a small dog person. I love all dogs, but would not go out of my way to own a little one. I like a dog to look like a dog.


----------



## tripod

The Dog Woman said:


> I would hope you are not referring to me...I am doing nothing of the kind....
> I'm referring to those who have qualifications and standards - yet are still absolutely hopeless at what they do. There should be a better and more frequent assessment system. like a probationary/apprentice period....
> 
> I agree, they are, but there doesn't seem to be one set, standard, widely approved-of or generally accepted methodology. And two doctors have been struck off in my neck of the woods alone, in the past year, for malpractice. And one was a Consultant. So even in the sectors where one would think a set register of regulation and guidelines exists, some still get through the net. I'm just saying, nothing is infallible, no system will ever bring perfection. No matter how well-intentioned the original premise....
> 
> What would you suggest....?
> It's all very well decrying matters as they stand, but do you have an alternative that might work better?
> 
> And please take nothing above as intentionally argumentative or contrary. I think responsible people (such as I hope we are), are those who can move mountains if we join forces....


I was not referring to anyone specifically.

With reference to accepted methodology, there is and there isn't. Among enlightened and educated professionals there is quite a bit of well regarded, valid and objective work on how animals learn, how aversives affect learning, canid behaviour so this is what methodology is drawn from, or should be. Among those on the dark side, not so much  

But this is also why standards are so important. Otherwise those doctors wouldn't have been struck off so that nobody else is affected. When there are standards and procedures these things are possible - in the training and behaviour industries this is not.

There are three trainers here who were removed from a well known international professional trainers organisation as they did not comply with its strict code of ethics/practice - this is good. But what did they do next? They have started a self regulated and self assessed trainers group here 

As regards suggestions: the only way to improve animal welfare is to improve owner education. That means that professionals must be educated. The industry must be standardised so as to recognise these basics. This means that individuals who take after the next tv trainer can't start to damage dogs for a fee.

As regards my own individual effort: I am academically qualified so that I can work on complex issues and have an indepth understanding of treatment methodologies and able to interpret research work so as to use this to develop behaviour modification.
I run a pet dog training business and work with vets, other professionals and a voluntary rescue group. Between professional and voluntary work I have seen over 1000 dogs and getting closer to 2000 dogs everyday.
I teach animal care workers and pet owners. I am a member of a number of international networking and education groups for behaviour professionals. I run a blog with training articles and programs free for anyone to use. I am a founding member of APDT Ireland (all founding members have been independently assessed) and we are working to establish professional and educational standards for trainers here so pet owners have a safe place from which to source training help.

But it has to be about educating pet owners.


----------



## The Dog Woman

Thank you for your considered and articulate, gentle reply. I appreciate your taking the time. 

it's all food for thought and worth noting.

Incidentally, I have started a thread on a similar topic, regarding irresponsible breeders/owners....


----------



## Sgril

As afaithful animal a trainer and behaviourist is needed.He should be efficient and good worker and can handle the different position.


----------



## rottiemum

Great thread! I've been looking for a behaviourist recently. Baillie is usually very good on the lead, but would occassionally and without provocation lunge at someone walking past! Hard to judge when she would do it. 
Recently she has had a sore eye - she got a scratch and then it got infected, so she has been wearing the dreaded 'lampshade' collar for over a week now. It seems she is worse since putting this on - of course, she's miserable with it, and not feeling well either, so she's grumpy - but you just can't have a 6+ stone rottie jumping and growling at people! 

My vet strongly recommends the APBC and says not to use anyone that isn't a member. While I don't agree with him that anyone not a member isn't qualified or 'good', I have found a member in my area that seems quite reasonable and is up front about his methods and prices. He's even had an independent study done and has the results posted on the site - not all 100% as you would expect if he were trying to make himself look good, but realistic numbers that are still impressive. 

He's charging £120 for first 2-4 hour home consultation (or in the environment where the trouble is happening, i.e. walks); then if required, £60 per visit afterwards. 

What does everyone think? Good deal or not? And do you think I should wait until she gets to have the collar off before trying this?

Thanks!


----------



## newfiesmum

That sounds extremely cheap to me! When you consider that the likes of Bark Busters are charging £280 to come out, with no proper qualifications and limited to their own, outdated methods, he sounds a gem.

I would most definitely wait though. You dog is not going to feel like co-operating if he is already uncomfortable. Do let us know how you get on.


----------



## rottiemum

Thanks! Yeah, I thought he sounded pretty good. I'll give him a call after she's feeling better. She should be able to ditch the 'collar of shame' by next Monday!


----------



## rottiemum

Well, the last vet check up should be Monday - when we should be able to remove the 'lampshade' once & for all! And I've booked the behaviourist for Thursday afternoon. Wish us luck!


----------



## rottiemum

Well, the APBC guy came yesterday afternoon and spent 2 hours with us and Baillie. He was very good. He came armed with hot dogs, so Baillie loooved him. 

He gave us some really good pointers and taught us a few things to help with her behaviour. It really seemed a bit like common sense when he did it, but just the way he did it seemed to make a difference. 
We didn't encounter anyone when we went out with him on a walk, but he pretended to be a stranger walking by and taught us what to do with Baillie. I tried it this morning and it seemed to work ok. Only saw one guy though! But it's something we'll have to work on. 
He did also recommend a muzzle for her because she's so big and powerful - and said it also makes people think twice about coming right up to her, which might be helpful.

Anyway, it gives us hope!


----------



## edidasa

Having been a dog trainer myself, this is how you pick 'em.

-FORGET all the qualification, forget the certificates, forget the price, forget what your vet says, FORGET the associations ABCDEFGHIJK.
(no disrespect in any way, I respect the associations for (trying) to standardise the methods/quality of training)

- Ask the trainer - 'Can I see how good your dog is?' 

Observe. 
-Does his/her dog sit and lie down when he tells him to (within a few seconds and saying it ONCE)
-come back when the dog is distracted: e.g. playing with other dogs, meeting other people? 
-Stay when it should (in distractions... dogs running around etc., people walking around, food thrown at the dog, toys moving about)
-walk loosely on lead?

Don't take ANY excuse: 'Oh, I don't have time to train my dog' or 'Oh my dog is old' 'Oh I don't have a dog'. 

Proof is in the pudding. if he/she can't train his/her dog - how can they teach you to train yours?


----------



## leashedForLife

edidasa said:


> Having been a dog trainer myself, this is how you pick 'em.
> 
> -FORGET... qualification, ...certificates, ...price, ...what your vet says, ...associations ABCDEFGHIJK. [*snip*]
> - Ask the trainer - 'Can I see how good your dog is?'
> 
> Observe. [SNIP] Proof is in the pudding. if s/he can't train her/his dog - how can they teach you to train yours?


and how the H*** do U know that the dog was trained by that trainer? :huh: or *how* that dog was trained - 
by that trainer or whoever s/he hired?

if i am hiring a trainer for private lessons, or looking for a group-class for myself, i *want to know * their 
qualifications, mentors, certifications, affiliations, role-models, experience & *what tools they use*.

if they intimidate confident dogs or flood timid dogs or set reactive-dogs up to act-out so they can punish the dog, 
i have no interest in hiring that trainer; if their role-models need a choke-collar or prong-collar to teach a dog LLW, 
or if they sell shock-collars to their clients for use in training, or recommend shock-fences to confine dogs virtually, 
or shock-collars to punish barking, i won't hire that trainer.

if the last book they read on dog-training was published in 1972, i am not impressed. 
i want to know they're still learning. i like to see CEUs. i *like* affiliations & credentials.

one dog's good behavior is not going to 'sell' me on someone's skills.

U can do as U please - i want more than to see one dog they may [or may not] have trained from the start.

even more than a dog trained from puphood BTW, i would be more impressed by a dog who was 'repaired' 
from a badly-damaged state - by that trainer. Seeing the dog progress from hurting to behaviorally-healed, 
to whatever degree, would be much more convincing than a dog who is an OT-Ch or a Schutz-III.

similarly, if i am a client who wants to compete in a dog-sport, *the trainer winning ribbons or trophies 
won't be as important as past clients who've won ribbons or trophies - * whether it's Rally-O or breed-ring, 
agility or flyball, ski-jor or freestyle, *i want to know not, 'can s/he win?', but 'can s/he teach 
me so that i can win?' :thumbup: or at the very minimum, have a helluva good time learning the game.* 

the very-best teachers have students who go on to exceed them.


----------



## newfiesmum

edidasa said:


> Having been a dog trainer myself, this is how you pick 'em.
> 
> -FORGET all the qualification, forget the certificates, forget the price, forget what your vet says, FORGET the associations ABCDEFGHIJK.
> (no disrespect in any way, I respect the associations for (trying) to standardise the methods/quality of training)
> 
> - Ask the trainer - 'Can I see how good your dog is?'
> 
> Observe.
> -Does his/her dog sit and lie down when he tells him to (within a few seconds and saying it ONCE)
> -come back when the dog is distracted: e.g. playing with other dogs, meeting other people?
> -Stay when it should (in distractions... dogs running around etc., people walking around, food thrown at the dog, toys moving about)
> -walk loosely on lead?
> 
> Don't take ANY excuse: 'Oh, I don't have time to train my dog' or 'Oh my dog is old' 'Oh I don't have a dog'.
> 
> Proof is in the pudding. if he/she can't train his/her dog - how can they teach you to train yours?


Sorry, can't agree with you there. I am not a great believer in qualifications myself, but if the trainer has a dog that good, I would want to know how he got that way. I know a local "trainer" who has about eight smallish dogs who she shows off with on the heath. All going down on cue, all doing exactly as they are told. But I know for a fact that her answer for perfect recall is a shock collar. I also know she is an ardent follower of the DW, pack leader crap and alpha rolling.

I know how her dogs got that way, and I would not allow that for my dogs. Also, taken by your yardstick, I must be the absolute best trainer in the world if you saw Joshua. 11 stone, never pulls, only needs loose leash in any circumstances, comes back when he is called, waits of his food to be in the bowl before diving in. He is everything anyone would want a dog to be, but nobody trained him! He is just naturally like that, believe it or not. Did it all himself, bless his heart.

To choose a trainer, before I would trust them with my dogs, I would want to see them in action, not the finished product.


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## furryfriendhut

Also, speak to other pet owners that have used the trainer. How well has it worked for their dogs? Also, have your dog meet the trainer. Keep it mind it is about chemestry as well.


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## RobD-BCactive

Also seeing how the professional handles a non-behaving dog is relevant, may be if there's group activities then spectating at such, with many client dogs would be more revealing and less vulnerable to "set ups".

Having chatted with people with rescues (mostly) who have gone to Behavourists, you never know if they were qualified, and even vet recommended ones have satisfied, by recommending alpha rolling a guarding Spaniel for instance. Suppression, rather than dealing with the core issue. Others have perhaps been non-satisfied with Behavourists, who did give good advice, but possiby at wrong time for that dog, who was settling in for instance.

Anecdotes are a little dangerous, we all know that risky gambles can come off, and a satisfied client may not make the connection between initial treatment, and another issue that occurs a few years later, swayed by smooth patter and a confident client friendly demeanour.

Everyone has trouble being objective, we select the advice and exercises which fits with our own personal philosophy and reject that which is incompatible.


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## Emmastace

leashedForLife said:


> and how the H*** do U know that the dog was trained by that trainer? :huh: or *how* that dog was trained -
> by that trainer or whoever s/he hired?
> 
> if i am hiring a trainer for private lessons, or looking for a group-class for myself, i *want to know * their
> qualifications, mentors, certifications, affiliations, role-models, experience & *what tools they use*.
> 
> if they intimidate confident dogs or flood timid dogs or set reactive-dogs up to act-out so they can punish the dog,
> i have no interest in hiring that trainer; if their role-models need a choke-collar or prong-collar to teach a dog LLW,
> or if they sell shock-collars to their clients for use in training, or recommend shock-fences to confine dogs virtually,
> or shock-collars to punish barking, i won't hire that trainer.
> 
> if the last book they read on dog-training was published in 1972, i am not impressed.
> i want to know they're still learning. i like to see CEUs. i *like* affiliations & credentials.
> 
> one dog's good behavior is not going to 'sell' me on someone's skills.
> 
> U can do as U please - i want more than to see one dog they may [or may not] have trained from the start.
> 
> even more than a dog trained from puphood BTW, i would be more impressed by a dog who was 'repaired'
> from a badly-damaged state - by that trainer. Seeing the dog progress from hurting to behaviorally-healed,
> to whatever degree, would be much more convincing than a dog who is an OT-Ch or a Schutz-III.
> 
> similarly, if i am a client who wants to compete in a dog-sport, *the trainer winning ribbons or trophies
> won't be as important as past clients who've won ribbons or trophies - * whether it's Rally-O or breed-ring,
> agility or flyball, ski-jor or freestyle, *i want to know not, 'can s/he win?', but 'can s/he teach
> me so that i can win?' :thumbup: or at the very minimum, have a helluva good time learning the game.*
> 
> the very-best teachers have students who go on to exceed them.


Absolutely,100%, agree with all the above. I would also want to see how my dog reacted to them. When I look back on the ones we have tried Mia looked uncomfortable or unsure with the ones that I didn't contact for a second time. She was downright scared of one and continuously barked at her when I had never seen her bark at a human before. Mia adores the one we work with now and even when the behaviourist is off working with other dogs in the Social Walk class Mia looks over to her. I don't know if that is for reassurance but it looks like it is to me.


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## edidasa

i agree with that reply.

i know someone who has a Sch3 dog and has no idea to train, so yes, they can easily pass off as 'someone who knows something'.

there are always holes in every gap, someone who can 'rehabilitate dogs' may have no idea how to 'train' dogs certain behaviours or an idea in Sch. 

And, I've met police trainers who can train police dogs but have no idea about domestic pet dogs.

there are some things i know that i didn't a couple years ago, and i'm always learning til this day, and i'm sure in 20 years time.

there's also a big hole in 'qualifications'. what surprises me most is that the trainers i've met locally, who've taken a course, online or just from their 'teacher' and they are let loose on unsuspecting owners.

i agree completely that the teacher should be able to teach 'winning students too', and the fact that it's not about 'one' dog. i learnt from various trainers, one particularly (has no advertised 'qualifications') and has numerous dogs titled and cross-trained in french ring, schh, mondio ring, dock diving, agility, and he has 50+ (maybe more) students who've titled their dogs, including national champions and world competitors.

the fact is, it's hard to tell for a new dog owner. given what you said, what i originally meant, after seeing the group class students, the trainer should have a well trained dog too.

i mention it because i've spoken to NUMEROUS trainers in the UK who are running training classes but have no clue about how to train their own dog. in my opinion, they shouldn't be running classes.

one person i spoke to was an 'ex-police dog handler' and was putting choke chains on EVERY dog; and NO was spoken about 1000 times during a class... where's his dog?

i think it helps students to see a well trained dog handled properly. they get to see someone 'better than them' and see what kind of level can be achieved. it certainly helped me. 

for me, there IS a place (albeit a very small one) for 'virtual fences'. there are some owners who want that, and i don't think it should be taken away from them.
An australian trainer i met uses an electronic fence for her dog at home, and she also competes her dog in agility. 

a friend's friend of mine asked me if it was ok to use a choke chain because that was what worked for her dog (they were advised to use a halti that FREAKED their dog out)... 

saying all that, i know e-collar trainers (escape avoidance trainers) that can 'repair' aggressive dogs very quickly.... does the dog LOOK happy to the average new dog owner? Probably. Would I use that method? No.


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## newfiesmum

A lot of the people with no qualifications that are recognised, so can't join an organisation like APBC or well respected organisations, just go set up their own. Give it some appropriate initials and call themselves a member. it means nothing. I see someone in action, and I know whether they are any good; qualifications really never have meant a lot to me.

However, people come along (on this forum particularly) calling themselves dog behaviourists and have not even done a simple online course. When asked about qualifications or experience, they don't usually come back. A local female, the one I unfortunately had to help me get Ferdie over his fear of the car (see earlier) calls herself a behaviourist and does not know one end of a dog from the other. I passed her the other day being dragged down the road by one of her dogs; not a very good advert.

Usually she only takes the tiny ones out on lead, they are easier to control and make her look better.


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## RobD-BCactive

edidasa said:


> one person i spoke to was an 'ex-police dog handler' and was putting choke chains on EVERY dog; and NO was spoken about 1000 times during a class... where's his dog?


As far from his owner as possible? 

Folk are very vulnerable in a class situation, it's hard for most ppl to say "No, you cannot!" to someone in authority in front of others, who's meant to be an expert. Obviously if everyone, was doing their own thing, class would be chaotic, so there's reason for it. It's just hard like in the "Milgram Experiment" for someone to stop going along, when a line is crossed.


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## leashedForLife

edidasa said:


> i think it helps students to see a well trained dog handled properly. they get to see someone 'better than them'
> and see what kind of level can be achieved. it certainly helped me.


this can be outside class-time, rather than during - otherwise the instructor's dog will be hanging about, bored, 
a good deal of the class-time, since the instructor will be focused on the handlers & their dogs. 


edidasa said:


> for me, there IS a place (albeit a very small one) for 'virtual fences'. ...some owners... want that,
> and i don't think it should be taken away from them.


i'd be perfectly happy if they were banned - they create more problems than they ever solve, IME, having seen 
many a dog assaulted or invaded by other dogs at large while in their own home-garden, or become reactive 
or aggro to passersby - bikes, kids, leashed dogs, etc - due to the association with being zapped for getting close 
to the hidden boundary, so the alluring thing [passing dog, calling child, friendly stranger...] becomes a trigger.


edidasa said:


> a friend's friend of mine asked me if it was ok to use a choke chain because that was what worked for her dog
> (they were advised to use a halti that FREAKED their dog out)...


headcollars require habituation - U cannot simply out it on the dog & go, it must be introduced properly & the dog 
must be taught a happy-association [classically conditioned] with the funny feeling of something on their face. 
just as dogs can learn to wear a T-shirt, goggles or earmuffs, they can *learn* to wear a headcollar 
quite happily.

during the habituation process, U need another effective, pain-free management tool - my suggestion 
is a *front-clip H-harness*, well-fitted & comfortable: buckles away from the armpits, not slithering about, 
adjustable in at least 3 places [both sides of the heart-girth, plus the neck-strap].


edidasa said:


> i know e-collar trainers (escape avoidance trainers) that can 'repair' aggressive dogs very quickly...


rapid fixes for aggro-dogs are no more effective than a bandaid over a wound on a hemophiliac, or a gauze-pad 
over a sloughing ulcer - it's a cover-up, nothing more.

shock-collars, no matter how LOW the shock is set, are used to punish [discourage repetition of] unwanted 
behaviors, or to suppress unwanted behaviors. Suppression of aggro is ineffective; punishment is no better, 
especially physical-punishment [jerk, shock, poke, pin, roll...], as such physical punishment IS AGGRESSIVE, 
& adding aggro from the human side of the equation will not help reduce aggro from the k9-end of relations.

aggression cannot 'fix' aggression, period; it throws fuel on an already-burning fire, which is potentially 
explosive & very dangerous, indeed. *Removing the reason* for the dog to feel aggro or defensive is far-more 
effective, & also much safer for all involved - the dog, owner or family, the trainer, & anyone who interacts 
with that dog during or after the B-Mod into the future [vet, groomer, petsitter, dog-walker...].


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## newfiesmum

Edidasa, you obviously didn't see the boxer on Its Me or the Dog who was afraid to venture into the garden at all because of his experience with an electric fence. You can call them virtual fences if you like, just as you can call a shock collar an e-collar or a remote collar, they are both designed to use positive punishment. As Terry has pointed out, there is nothing to stop others dogs from getting into the garden. The resident dog tries to keep them out, he gets a shock, hence the other dog must have caused it. Result: resident dog hates other dogs.


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## RobD-BCactive

And where someone asked about shock e-fences, and ignored advice to build a run instead (fencing off whole area prohibitive costwise), they came back and claimed how wonderful they were. But some friends who then got one, apparently forgot to switch collars off and their dogs got "stimmed" whilst inside car, giving them phobia.

Whilst having someone on the button has issues of responsible operation, not having anyone is asking for unfortunate and inappropriate shocking, a critique of them is at - Articles: Why I REALLY Hate Electronic Shock (Invisible) Fences by Pamela Dennison at Positive Motivation Dog Training!


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## Lou Castle

Automatically discounting people because they use (or don't use) some specific tool is a mistake that may leave people without an option that they may need. If other methods don't give the desired results in a timely manner (and only the owner can tell what those things mean) then those tools may be a perfectly acceptable way to go. As with all other methods these comments only apply if the tool is used properly. 

I don't think that having or not having a demo dog shows you anything. He may not have trained the dog himself. It's not unheard of for someone to purchase an already trained dog and pass it off as if he had done the work. Even if he's had the dog for quite some time, it may not give you any indication of his skill. It's far easier to maintain training than it is to start it. Even if he has done the work himself, and it's virtually impossible to tell if this is the case, that dog will have several thousand hours of work. 

EVEN IF HE HAS DONE THE WORK HIMSELF; how HIS dog responds to his methods is no indication of how YOUR dog will respond to those methods. The BEST indication is the opinions of others that he's worked with. It's how the dogs OF HIS CLIENTS have responded that you should look at. I suggest that you get references from the prospective trainer and ask those whom he's trained. I think that this is the best way to find out if the trainer you're looking at is worth hiring. 

All the letters in the world after his name don't mean a thing if he can't apply his methods successfully. Ditto for belonging to various organizations, groups and clubs. 

As far as warranties, I think they're excellent. BEST is a trainer who offers a money back guarantee if the client is not satisfied for any reason. Most trainers offer either nothing or invite you to attend more classes, free of charge. Problem is, if what they do hasn't worked in the allotted time frame (allotted by that trainer) more of the same, probably isn't going to change things much.


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## RobD-BCactive

Lou Castle said:


> Automatically discounting people because they use (or don't use) some specific tool is a mistake that may leave people without an option that they may need


Not if you don't fancy gaol time!


> EVEN IF HE HAS DONE THE WORK HIMSELF; how HIS dog responds to his methods is no indication of how YOUR dog will respond to those methods. The BEST indication is the opinions of others that he's worked with. It's how the dogs OF HIS CLIENTS have responded that you should look at


That is a good point. Unfortunately it seems far too many in dog world, expect a dog to accept quite insensitive procedures, despite observable evidence that it's progressing well with kind & humane methods.

There's kudos in the apparent immediate, quick fix and people ignore the stress and obvious fear shown, choosing to suppress a behaviour.


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## RobD-BCactive

Lou Castle said:


> As long as it's progressing. But often that's not the case


In that documentary with the NYPD trainers, they said when there was a problem 99.99% (may be more 9's) they said it was handler error.

From what I've seen that's plausible to me.


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## Hetty

I'm a trainer and have my own dog school in the UK and am invited to give workshops and seminars around Europe. I have qualifications, do regular CPD (just been to Italy where Kathy Sdao (USA) came to give a 3 day seminar on clicker training), but I am not registered anywhere. My dogs compete and do well, not just in the UK but also in other countries.

I find this registration is not a guarantee that trainers are good. Also I put my name in with other trainers that I don't know and we have a lot of different registered trainers in this area and with some of them I would not like to be associated with due to their harsh handling techniques. Being registered means you pay them a fee. It doesn't mean you get more or better information regarding subjects, it doesn't help you with CPD as far as I am aware. So even though I agree that it would be nice to be registered with some kind of organisation, I have not made my mind up to which organisation I would like to belong.

When people phone me, I try to ask several questions :
* What breed is your dog? This in order to try to place people in groups which suits them. In mix all breeds in the classes but in some classes (e.g. agility) it is easier if all dogs are the same sizes.
*What age is your dog? & What training experience has the dog? Or what training problems are there? This helps me determine which group would be most suitable.
*Is the dog aggressive or has it shown any signs of aggression towards people or other dogs? Again we need to place a dog in a group that suits it. A lot of reactive dogs in the same class will not be beneficial for anyone, but also I have to protect the other people that already train at the centre to make sure they are safe (and e.g. their kids are safe in case they bring their whole family along to watch and interact in the class). If I've got too many aggressive dogs in the same class it won't work so you have limited places for such dogs, but in case I can not help straight away I'll sort something else out for such owners (send them to someone I know or sort out private lessons), as they need help straight away.

As we do not do courses, but let people join into groups with certain levels, dogs can move up the levels when they are ready for it. When people join we try to find out what they have problems with and work on these things in the classes. So in some groups we work more on food aggression and other groups more on jumping up or pulling on the lead, but all topics will be covered and trained. We always try to place people in a group within one month of phoning. I must admit that is easier in the summer when we are on the field (and can use that any time of the day and evening) than when we are in the hall that I rent as I can only use that on certain times. 

People are always welcome to watch the classes before they join. I like people to do so anyway as they see what we do and it shows they are really interested. Most people come to us by word of mouth, so they already know a bit about what we do and what results we achieve, so for me to join an organisation would not change my client base that much.


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## RobD-BCactive

Hetty said:


> As we do not do courses, but let people join into groups with certain levels, dogs can move up the levels when they are ready for it


That sounds great! Pipelining, starting off with a puppy play group, would likely help ppl cope better with things like puppy nipping & house training, avoiding making early mistakes which need undoing later. The class I've attended run your way, was much more pleasant, featuring sociable dogs, some streaming in after graduating from remedial socialisation.


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## leashedForLife

there are all sorts of classes in the USA - 
specific dog-sports, specific behavior problems, *Levels training* via Sue Ailsby's training manual, 
real-world classes that meet & train on the street [hounds about town, urban-dog classes, walk n talk...], 
meet n greet classes that specialize in off-leash hiking for familiar dogs & long-line hiking for newbies - 
if U are looking for something in particular, it may not be local TO * U, but it's probably out there somewhere.

some dog-sports: 
_these can be aimed at serious competition, or just enjoyable fun with our dogs._
agility 
flyball 
ski-jor or bike-jor or *dog-powered bikes* [a bar to the rear; this is a hobby, not a competition] 
carting or sledding 
weight-pull 
freestyle or heelwork-to-music 
disc-dog

*hiking groups* generally meet outside town at a trail-head, park their vehicles, & walk with their dogs - 
depending on local laws, the dogs may be under voice-control & off-leash, on long lines, or on 6-ft leashes. 
some groups use backpacks to give the dogs extra exercise, slowly adding weight & building endurance & muscle. 
hiking as a group means less wildlife, but more safety - if anyone turns an ankle, there are many hands to help; 
water-bottles & collapsible bowls for dogs are everywhere, folks wear hats to protect their heads from sun & rain, 
walking sticks are common, backpacks to carry a picnic or waist-bags for snacks & water proliferate. 
they generally meet once a week if local, or once a month if they drive long distances to scenic locations.

*Dog Scouts of America - * 
earn badges, go camping or hiking, hang-out with dog-centric folks, have a wonderful time swimming, canoeing, 
playing Frisbee, teach Ur dog sign-language... No limits. 
local groups, national organization - loads of fun with lovely people & sociable dogs.

*Nosework* [new] - finding 1 to 3 hidden scents; novice thru advanced.

*Treibball* [new] - 'push-ball', herd balls too-big to bite into a goal under a time-limit, with handler cues.

behavioral issues get their own suite of classes -

_*Reactive Rover*_ is one class that unlike Hetty's opinion above, is specifically designed for dogs who react: 
they lunge or bark or growl or hackle & stare or ________ at other dogs. It may seem counter-intuitive, but it brings 
dogs with a similar problem together with other dogs who have the same problem, & allows the instructor to help 
all of them at one time - while providing accommodation so that the dogs are not overwhelmed, their handlers can get 
tips on how to cope, do B-Mod in a controlled setting with other dogs as foils, see how to manage their dog to prevent 
meltdowns in public or at home, how best to interrupt a developing display before it is full-blown...

*accommodations* can include *visual barriers* [fence-panels, banquet tables on their sides, sheets tacked 
to a light frame, Calming-Caps...]; or *personal zones:* the most common? meet in a parking-lot, each dog & handler 
use their *car* as their safe retreat, & emerge as the dog calms down, spending more & more time outside 
& slowly reducing the distance between vehicles & occupants / dog & handler teams, as the dogs improve & relax.

*Hounds About Town:* 
dogs & handlers meet to walk a specific route for the day, often planned around shopping destinations which are 
dog-friendly or restaurants with outdoor cafes which allow polite dogs to hang-out. 
dogs learn to ignore other dogs while in motion, to halt reliably & safely at curbs to wait for traffic halts, to pace with 
their handler; the handlers learn to use body-cues for the dog so that they move better as a team, to manage a leash 
*and* parcels, to monitor their dog for over-arousal before s/he pounces on another dog to "play", 
to handle their dog in a confined space [an aisle in a boutique...], to safely & comfortably settle their dog around food...

*shy-k9s classes:* 
dogs who are neophobic present their own challenges, & classes intended for them are supportive & low-key. 
calmatives like DAP plug-ins may make the space more soothing, or lavender & other aromatherapy is used; 
Anxiety-Wraps may be worn, or just super-snug T-shirts or Ace-bandage body-wraps; massage or T-touch 
may be taught or how-to demonstrations done, or diagrams are handed out for practice at home.

*Do-ga: for any dog, no special issues  * 
yoga with one's dog - range of motion stretching & contraction for dog & owner, the dog serves as a weight 
if they are small or a balance point or wedge if they are larger, the dog learns to relax, mutual breathing 
is a relaxing synchronization, & many hyperactive dogs learn to chill.


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## leashedForLife

may i remind the forum at large of the topic of this thread?

it is how to select a trainer [who trains dogs and/or instructs their owners or handlers] or a behaviorist - 
anyone qualified as a *behaviorist* in the USA has academic credentials from one source or another, 
either a 3rd-party credentialing organization [APBC, IAABC, etc] or a college or university.

this thread covers what credentials if any, skills, affiliations, etc, the owner should look for, as well as being aware 
that they want someone whom their dog & they themselves will get along with - the trainer or behaviorist should 
accommodate their learning style, find out what appeals to their dog, and otherwise suit them - a good fit. :thumbsup:


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## edidasa

fascinating thread. i guess this discussion goes on in lots of other forums too.

i'm not pro e-devices, or against them - but i do think that trainers 'should' open themselves to learning more about these devices. 

I'm also not saying the ppl on this forum should either....

For example, in playing tug with your dog - there is a school of thought that believes this should rarely be done, or at least the owner should ALWAYS win.
In my learnings, tug is (for some dogs) one of the most rewarding games to play with an owner - and letting them win just makes them want to play more with you.

Sure, there should be 'rules' to the game, but my point is if I was a trainer that was not open to new ideas or 'different schools of thoughts' I don't think I would be very good. 

Shame, there's no qualification on 'how to use a choke chain, e-collar, prong collar, e-fence'.... or is there? (maybe I spotted a gap in the market)


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## RobD-BCactive

So perhaps when selecting a Trainer or Behavourist, we can slip in some questions?

What are your rules for tug with a typical non-aggressive family pet?
Should I work on becoming a better Pack Leader?
What % of cases does neutering reduce aggression, mounting in bitches & dogs.

Developing a list of "controversial" topics, subject to popular memes, might help sort out the sheep from the goats, test communication skills and perhaps avoid wasting time double checking claimed qualifications and such.


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## newfiesmum

edidasa said:


> fascinating thread. i guess this discussion goes on in lots of other forums too.
> 
> i'm not pro e-devices, or against them - but i do think that trainers 'should' open themselves to learning more about these devices.
> 
> I'm also not saying the ppl on this forum should either....
> 
> For example, in playing tug with your dog - there is a school of thought that believes this should rarely be done, or at least the owner should ALWAYS win.
> In my learnings, tug is (for some dogs) one of the most rewarding games to play with an owner - and letting them win just makes them want to play more with you.
> 
> Sure, there should be 'rules' to the game, but my point is if I was a trainer that was not open to new ideas or 'different schools of thoughts' I don't think I would be very good.
> 
> Shame, there's no qualification on 'how to use a choke chain, e-collar, prong collar, e-fence'.... or is there? (maybe I spotted a gap in the market)


Never letting the dog win at a tug game is surely an idea to do with the pack leader rubbish that modern thinking people are trying to dispel. The dog doesn't know whether he has won or not. The thing is be sure the game ends when the owner wants it to end, not who wins.

As to qualifications on the use of the devices you mention, you may find more information at an S & M club. Members of such an establishment would have the only use for them that I can imagine, and used with full consent of the participants, unlike the helpless dog who has no say.


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## ClaireandDaisy

What I look for in a trainer or behaviourist (and we`ve had many, believe me) is experience, kindness and patience. 
I have walked away from the know-it-alls and the martinets. I have told the bullies where to get off and voted with my feet regarding the incompetent. 
A good trainer or behaviourist is a treasure.


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