# Do you think your cat is Pregnant? Or do you want her to get pregnant?



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

There is nothing (IMO) that is harder to resist than being sucked in by the cuteness of a litter of tiny fluffy kittens!

So for those that don't know what they are getting in to, opening your back door to let you female cat out to get pregnant seems like an easy way to experience the magic of a litter of kittens.

So, lets help you prepare properly for this ... after all you really don't want your cat to come to any harm do you? This is all free advice and you're welcome to take it or leave it, but I hope that by the time you have finished reading you will be more prepared 

*Important things to think about before you open your back door, or mate your girl with a friends cat:*

*Her age ~* Ideally she should be at least 1 year old and no older than 4 to have her first litter. If you let her get pregnant before the age of 1 you run the risk of her being too small to carry a litter and then give birth. You are more likely to have to pay for a c-section which can cost hundreds of pounds. If you let her get pregnant after the age of 4 for the first time, this could also be the case.

*Her health ~* ideally she should be in tip top condition. Make an appointment with your vet and have her checked over. The last thing you want is for your girls heart to give way while she's giving birth, or for her pelvis to be too small and any kittens get stuck in the birth canal meaning a very expensive c-section is needed ... or indeed your girl could die during birth if she's not taken to a vet quickly.

Also if you can get your girl tested for some very serious genetic conditions it would be very beneficial to, along with testing for illness that could affect both your girl and the kittens if she mates with a tom. After all you don't want her to have kittens that could end up very sick.

Testing for the following would be a good start:
PKD Polycystic Kidney Disease in Cats - Causes, Symptoms & Management of Feline PKD - Cat-World
FeLV - Feline Leukemia Virus Know your cat - Feline leukemia virus (FeLV)
FIV - Feline Immunodeficiency Virus Feline Immunodeficiency Virus (FIV) in Cats
Feline Infectious Peritonitis (FIP) Feline Infectious Peritonitis (FIP)
FCV and herpes- causes of cat flu. http://www.catchat.org/calicivirus.html

There are many more conditions to test for and some that you can't test for because you don't know the genetic make up of your kitty unfortunately. Things like HCM which is a heart condition. It's the same condition you hear about on the news that effects youths ... you know the ones you hear about that collapse and die during sporting events, with their heart just giving up.

*Time ~* This is something that you really need to make. As mentioned in the paragraph above there are a few things that can go wrong, and it's more common than you think too. If you look around on these forums you will find a lot of owners who have been left with huge vet bills after their girls have had a complicated birth which has needed emergency vet treatment. Ideally you should have about 4 weeks off work, more if possible. This would be 1 week before the birth and a few weeks after. If you are at work when she gives birth you're taking a risk ... you could come home to your cat in great distress, or worse she and her kittens could be dead. It happens, and is not as uncommon as you would think.

Besides all that, I'm sure your girl would not like to be alone for the birth. Many girls will wait to give birth just so she can have you there! They will often keep coming to you and then walk off as if to say "come on mum I'm ready and I need you". The few weeks after the birth are needed because at any point you could have a problem with the kittens. If for instance mum takes a kitten only a few days old from the nesting area and leaves the poor thing somewhere, the kitten could chill and die within hours, especially in winter months. Plus your girl might have problems with feeding the kittens, so you could end up feeding them every 2 hours for her. And worst case scenario, if you lose your girl during birth or she rejects the litter completely you would have to take over with everything, including toileting the kittens by stimulating their bottoms ... nice!

*Money ~* To raise a healthy litter of kittens successfully and to a standard that pedigree breeders would be proud of (we all want that right?) it can still cost you up to and beyond £1,000! that is without emergency vet fees or fees for unexpected health problems with the kittens. It does however include vet fees for a very common condition with litters (conjunctivitis), though the figures are conservative. Have a look at the quote below to give you an idea of some of the costs:



> I was spending about £4 per day on cat litter while initially litter training my girls 4 kittens before we could switch over to the cheaper clumping option. We did this for about 5 weeks. Then the cat food was disappearing fast once they started weaning. Along with all that can you provide a safe environment for curious kittens? Can you cover all the wiring in your house and take care over any other hazards? If not what would you do if you came home one day to find a stiff kitten corpse with an electrical wire in its mouth?
> 
> Then you have to think about vet bills while the kittens are growing. An awful lot of kittens suffer with conjunctivitis. This can be expensive to treat, especially if it doesn't clear up with the drops you're usually provided with in the first instance. What about if they get cat flu or worse? Can you afford vet fee's for even the most common health problems in kittens?
> 
> ...


You might be thinking 'that's OK we don't have savings, but I'm sure we will managed after all it won't all need to be bought upfront' ... but even then you're talking about £300 + a month if you were to keep the kittens until the recommended 12 -13 weeks. If you kept them for only 8 weeks (seriously not recommended) it's even more  But remember that is if you are lucky enough to have a healthy pregnancy, a birth without problems and a healthy litter of kittens! If not you could easily at least double the money you will need.

*Mental strength ~* You might scoff at this, but you will need it! Not only for being strong when it's time for your adorable kittens to go to their new home ... also can you deal with your girl possibly dying? Or her kittens? Could you watch them come into the world dead, or dying? Could you watch them fade and die shortly after either ... or even worse, could you watch them grow for weeks and fall in love, then wake one morning to find one has died? It does happen unfortunately 

*Safety ~* are you prepared to make at least one room kitten proof? Hiding/covering/protecting all of the wires in the room is a big task, but if you don't you could come down one morning to find a little lifeless body with an electric cable in its mouth  It happens ... more often than you think! Can you handle blocking off all little cubby holes or gaps under furnature? can you make access to the curtains difficult? A 5 week old might easily scale a curtain, imagine what would happen if that little one was to let go and fall from ceiling height!  It does happen! I've even heard of a kitten of 7 weeks old, jumping off a window sill (not very high either) ... the poor thing laded awkwardly and injured her spine. She was dragging her back legs around for a while, and I can tell you the breeder was very worried for the poor little thing. Thankfully she recovered, but it could so easily have been permanent.

Are you also prepared to keep your cat indoors for at least 15 weeks? You'll need to keep her in from the moment you suspect she is pregnant really so it's more like 20 weeks. After all you wouldn't want to find your pregnant cat squashed on the road with her babies visible to all. Nor would you want her to give birth, then on a desperate search for food for her kittens (because they will naturally do this) she is killed on the road, or picks up a mouse/rat that has been poisoned, or perhaps she even becomes a meal for a loacl fox. You would then be left to care for her kittens whilst grieving for your girl. We've had members join the forums in these very circumstance, so it does happen 

**~*~*~*~*~*~*​*
Having read all that there is still one more thing to consider.
Are you prepared to be making a choice that could mean the death of other cats in your local area? What I'm talking about is the crisis that is not necessarily familiar to you.

Did you know there is a crisis in animal rescue centres? There are thousands (if not 100's of thousands) of cats in rescue centres up and down the country  all are waiting for homes, some of which will be put to sleep even though they are healthy. This is because a litter of kittens may arrive at their centre, and because they are more attractive to potential new owners and there for have a better chance ... the other older cats get put to sleep to make room for the kittens. They do this even if the cats are healthy.

If your friends and family have expressed interest in having one of your girls kittens and this is why you're going to let her get pregnant, please think very carefully before doing this. You could save lives instead. You could make a difference to those poor cats instead by encouraging your friends and relatives to go to a rescue centre and adopt instead. You and they are obviously emotional people who would love the companionship of a cat, so I'm sure finding a route to their hearts encouraging them to go to a rescue centre wouldn't be that hard 

Do you still want to let your girl out to get pregnant? If you do I really don't think there is anything I can do to discourage you, and to be honest if this is the case I feel sorry for you. You must have a cold heart  But if you need more convincing please read further down. You will hear stories from breeders who have been doing things the right way for years. Even they have problems when doing everything they can to ensure the health and temperament!

But if on reading this you have changed your mind and you need help with getting your girl spayed we can help 
The CP (formally known as The Cats Protection League) can help you with neutering costs, as can the RSPCA and other charities in your local area. If you need further help don't be afraid to ask! There is always something that can be done to help you and your cat. The folk around here have one big thing in common, and that's our cats. If we can help we will.

*This applies to those of you who think your girl may already be pregnant too. You can have her spayed in the first few weeks of pregnancy, and also beyond that too. You don't have to be responsible for contributing to the crisis in this country, there is still time to do the right thing for your girls and all those kitties waiting for a new home already *


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

If any of you out there that has bred a litter have had problems in doing so, please feel free to add your stories.

Also if there is anything any of you want to add to the illness/testing part please do, including better links, as I did literally just pull random pages found on google to represent them  ... or any other aspect for that matter.

It's important to note though, I've wrote this to deter rather than encourage, so please only share your stories about problems, emergency, costly and emotional (in a bad way) situations you've experienced. 

Cheers ... oh and if it's deemed acceptable could this maybe be stickied?


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Looks good and thankfully not a "how to" guide 

Well done!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

have to say that is excellent Aurelia!!, it would be a great shame if it wasnt stickied imho


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Also if you can get your girl tested for some very serious genetic conditions it would be very beneficial to, along with testing for illness that could affect both your girl and the kittens if she mates with a tom. After all you don't want her to have kittens that could end up very sick.
> 
> Testing for the following would be a good start:
> PKD Polycystic Kidney Disease in Cats - Causes, Symptoms & Management of Feline PKD - Cat-World
> ...


You don't mean FIP - a well cat does not have FIP. You mean coronavirus. I know of no pedigree breeder that tests for that but hey ho, let's put the frighteners on, why not?

Liz


----------



## Riobelle (Jun 3, 2010)

Great thread and I'd be pleased if you wanted to share my experiences. I also wondered if people should test for fcv and herpes- causes of cat flu. Kittens can develop ulcers on their tongue and stop drinking and become dehyrated or difficulties in breathing and end up in oxygen tents on drips- very expensive and heartbreaking. Makes no difference if the mum is vaccinated as there is no vaccine for every strain of fcv and mum can be a life long carrier without showing any symptoms. Very common and a major cause of gingivitis and sore eyes in cats.

Here's my story anyway;
I want to share this to show the implications of having kittens. I know that cats have been doing it for years but that doesn't mean it is without risk and if your girl is pregnant you may hope for fluffy kittens but may end up with the trauma of losing the kittens, losing your girl and emptying your bank account.
I now have my second litter of kittens and despite doing everything 'by the book' to help mum and babies, things haven't been smooth for me. My first girl started bleeding during pregnancy and had an infection. Pills, injections, 3 scans and a lot of praying got her to 9 weeks where she went into labour. Then the first kitten was stuck so she was dashed to vets in middle of night. This vet filled her full of oxytocin and ripped her womb during the forceps delivery and then sent her home with a kitten still inside her and one live kitten she was too ill to accept. She died 2 hours later in pain and from shock despite me rushing her to the vet when she collapsed. I fed her kitten every 2 hours for 24 hours before it also died. That cost me £1000 and would have been twice that if the vet had charged me for the 6 hours in the night I was there, this doesn't count the time off work and the awful trauma.
My second queen was bought as an adult and experienced mum after my first experience at trying to breed. It turned out she only had 3 nipples working and she had 7 kittens. I fed them every 2 hours for 4 weeks as well as worked and looked after my own family. I lost one at 1 week and 1 at 4 weeks and have had massive vet bills again after a vet assisted delivery and problems with the kittens including an operation resulting in one being put to sleep. Thankfully at 7 weeks they are now healthy and have homes to go to at 13 weeks. However I would never take breeding lightly again and I just wanted to share my story so people know it is not as easy as putting two cats together and getting little kittens. I hope this story helps someone make a decision about their girl xxx


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Some years ago as a member of my local area cat club I helped out with rescue and welfare issues of both pedigree and non-pedigree cats within the county which the club covered. 

Id taken in on a temporary foster basis a young, non-pedigree female whom the owner had decided, two thirds of the way through the cats pregnancy, that she no longer wanted. She was approximately 11 months old, so just on the cusp of being physically and mentally mature enough to cope with birth and a litter of kittens. She wasnt alarmingly small but nevertheless was just on the small side of medium for a cat of her age and a joint decision between myself, my vet and club committee members was taken to allow her to continue with the pregnancy and then spay and find homes for her and the kittens.

The remainder of her pregnancy passed uneventfully and she grew a very large belly. She went into labour normally around the date expected. Her contractions grew stronger and closer together and the first kitten could just be seen, bottom first, at her vulva. I became slightly concerned that she was a little more agitated than is usual for most queens but nothing that I felt she or I couldnt cope with. A few more strong contractions and the kitten (wriggling and alive) was half way out. Id suggest you dont read any further if youre sensitive and easily upset.

It very quickly became apparent that she could push the kitten out no further, despite her intensely painful, strong contractions; it was stuck at the shoulders. She grew highly agitated and fearful and could not be restrained from racing round the room, screaming, evacuating her bowels, in a desperate attempt to escape the unbearable pain at her rear end. So great was her fear and pain that it took myself and my husband almost 15 minutes to catch her in the one small room she was confined to. In that process she bit us both and my husband sustained a deep seated infection in his hand for which he underwent months of intensive treatment and surgery; the consultant who treated the resulting infection, which had traveled into bone, said that he was very lucky not to have lost a finger. As it was, he partially lost the use of two fingers on that hand.

Once wed managed to restrain her, our hands covered in blood, a quick inspection of her rear end revealed the blood was also hers; shed torn at the vulva. And the kitten was still alive and wriggling. Ive helped many kittens into the world where queens are having difficulties by gentle manipulation of a stuck or malpresented kitten but this was obviously not an occasion for intervention on my part and my husband already had the cat basket to hand and car keys in his hand.

This poor little cat screamed and bled through the whole 30 minute journey to our vet. And the kitten was still alive as she turned and bit at it, frantically trying to remove what she saw as the source of her suffering. That, and what followed at my vets surgery, was one of the most upsetting episodes in my life. The kitten, thankfully dead by this time either as a result of her mauling it or from suffocation or drowning, the vet could not remove. It was stuck fast around its middle. The vet could not move it backwards into the horn of the uterus, nor could she pull it out. The kitten had to be cut in half, at the queens vulva. The cat then underwent a c-section to remove the half kitten inside her and the remaining kittens. Some of the five remaining kittens were dead, a few alive but weak and so traumatised was their mother that it very quickly became apparent that she could not be trusted with the two remaining kittens and despite everyones best efforts at hand rearing they died within 48 hours. The reason she could not pass the kitten, in the opinion of my vet, was threefold. She was far from a tiny cat but her cervix was small, her pelvis narrow and the first kitten she tried so desperately to birth was a little bigger than usual.

All this because someone decided not to spay their cat at the appropriate age and thought it was a nice idea when, surprise surprise, she became pregnant, that a litter of kittens would be fun for her and the kids and then  probably quite wisely as it ironically turned out for her  decided it wasnt such a good idea after all and wanted shot of the cat.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Liz I added the FIP bit late on after I'd finished writing the rest. I was unsure as to if I should add it. It was more of a 'something to think about' thing than anything. I may yet remove that part 

It's not about putting the frighteners on anyone. I did say I've made up the thread the way I have to deter! That's what we all want isn't it? The only real way to deter is to give all of the negatives. Anyone reading it because of the title will already have all of the positives to breeding in their mind, else they wouldn't be thinking of breeding!

There is so much more I could add to it, but I thought it would be a bit too long and drawn out if I did.

Would it be possible for you to add to the thread in a more useful way? Perhaps you could share some of your horror stories, I'm sure you have a few having been breeding for so many years!


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Riobelle said:


> Great thread and I'd be pleased if you wanted to share my experiences. I also wondered if people should test for fcv and herpes- causes of cat flu. Kittens can develop ulcers on their tongue and stop drinking and become dehyrated or difficulties in breathing and end up in oxygen tents on drips- very expensive and heartbreaking. Makes no difference if the mum is vaccinated as there is no vaccine for every strain of fcv and mum can be a life long carrier without showing any symptoms. Very common and a major cause of gingivitis and sore eyes in cats.
> 
> Here's my story anyway;
> I want to share this to show the implications of having kittens. I know that cats have been doing it for years but that doesn't mean it is without risk and if your girl is pregnant you may hope for fluffy kittens but may end up with the trauma of losing the kittens, losing your girl and emptying your bank account.
> ...


:thumbup: Thank you very much for contributing. WOuld you mind if I copied your first paragraph and used it in the OP (I might jiggle it a bout a bit too if that's OK?).

So very sorry to hear your story though   ((hugs))


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Oh god :crying: gskinner, what an horrific ... ohhh  Thank god she had you to care for her!


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Liz I added the FIP bit late on after I'd finished writing the rest. I was unsure as to if I should add it. It was more of a 'something to think about' thing than anything. I may yet remove that part
> 
> It's not about putting the frighteners on anyone. I did say I've made up the thread the way I have to deter! That's what we all want isn't it? The only real way to deter is to give all of the negatives. Anyone reading it because of the title will already have all of the positives to breeding in their mind, else they wouldn't be thinking of breeding!
> 
> ...


It's a great thread, in my opinion, Aurelia. Entirely up to you whether you remove the part re FIP. I don't have the time today (and I'm a little 'all written out' lol) but I'll definitely, at some point, add to this thread re the devestating time I - not to mention my cats - went through as a result of FIP many years ago. As one of THE most dreaded cat diseases I really can't see how it can be left out of any discussion of this nature.. but entirely up to you, obviously.


----------



## Nico0laGouldsmith (Apr 23, 2011)

my cat got pregnant twice. . . the first time was through absolutely no fault of our own as we were told by the rescue centre (we got her as a kitten) that she was a boy! so when she had settled in and was old enough to go out we let her out in the back garden because she pestered us so much to go outside and hated her litter tray. . . we intended to get "him" done because we felt that if anyone had female cats nearby who weren't then he may get them pregnant and their owner may not want that. . .although really they should get them done if they don't want to deal with kittens and let them out. . . 

anyway yes so obviously it was very strange when our little "boy" had a litter of kittens in the garage
we just thought he was fat!!!

they all went to loving homes and she had no problems with the birth or anything.

then we planned on getting her done and it turned out she was pregnant again quite soon afterwards so after she had her first litter so successfully and was such a good mum to them we decided to let her deal with it all herself and just keep an eye on her, we made her a nice nest box under the stairs where it was warm and quiet and just kept checking on her . . . it was the strangest thing to watch (as I'm sure a lot of you know) and she made the strangest of noises, I just wanted to pick her up and take the pain away!

but she did it and ended up with another 4 kittens! 3 of which thrived but there was a grey one who was a tiny little thing and she just got pushed out of the way and even when the other kittens were removed for just a few minutes she didn't try to get milk from her mum despite her mum encouraging her so it was the middle of the night and we were ringing round and had to go out and get some kitten formula and syringe her. . .she soon put on weight and caught up with the other kittens! They all also went to loving homes.
She had her op to avoid having any more shortly after 

we never sold any of them we just allowed friends and family to take them. In fact one lives around the corner still and it looks just like my cat!
She's almost 17 now and she looks exactly the same as she did when she first matured and her baby who lives nearby is probably about 15 

In hindsight I wouldn't have let her just have kittens just like that I would have taken all the precautions to either prevent it or make sure it was carefully planned. We were just lucky that she handled it so well.


----------



## Riobelle (Jun 3, 2010)

Yes of course you can. FCV is a horrible virus as kittens are so succeptable to it and so many adult cats are carriers. Kittens get immunity from their mother's milk to about 4 weeks old and then are struck down with it, just as you think they are big enough not to worry about and are getting to know their personalities. There is no successful treatment to cure FCV. Interferon can be injected into the gums at the same time as extracting their teeth which is where the virus lives. Interferon is £100 per vial and the cats may need several treatments with very limited success (less than 20% success rate). Kittens will need early vaccinating at 4 weeks (unlicenced) and early weaning incurring more time and expense.
I'll be glad if some good comes out my story through helping someone decide what to do. You may think it will never happen to you, but it happened to me twice.

GSkinner- that is an awful story, I am so sorry xxx


----------



## Guest (Apr 28, 2011)

I knew there was no one better to write it than you! And you proved me right.
Great thread and I should hope its stuck and is used frequently!
Rep coming.


----------



## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I knew there was no one better to write it than you! And you proved me right.
> Great thread and I should hope its stuck and is used frequently!
> Rep coming.


Ditto! Well done Aurelia! Let's hope it gets stickied, read, digested, and hopefully it will change kitty lives


----------



## Guest (Apr 28, 2011)

hobbs2004 said:


> Ditto! Well done Aurelia! Let's hope it gets stickied, read, digested, and hopefully it will change kitty lives


Triple ditto!
And an echoto the mods!
We WANT A sticky!!!! pleaze! smiles very nicely through gritted teeth


----------



## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Some years ago as a member of my local area cat club I helped out with rescue and welfare issues of both pedigree and non-pedigree cats within the county which the club covered.
> 
> Id taken in on a temporary foster basis a young, non-pedigree female whom the owner had decided, two thirds of the way through the cats pregnancy, that she no longer wanted. She was approximately 11 months old, so just on the cusp of being physically and mentally mature enough to cope with birth and a litter of kittens. She wasnt alarmingly small but nevertheless was just on the small side of medium for a cat of her age and a joint decision between myself, my vet and club committee members was taken to allow her to continue with the pregnancy and then spay and find homes for her and the kittens.
> 
> ...


OMG :crying: that has to be one of the worst things Ive read poor paws 

Can I just add my two pence worth  because of gskinner post
if it is a large breed of cat ie Maine Coon or Norwegian forest cat etc the queen should be well over a year old.


----------



## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

An excellent piece of work Aurelia, a definite sticky!! 

Hopefully this will really help a lot of cats.

gskinner - omg :crying:


----------



## shells (Jan 16, 2011)

what a fab post well done


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Some years ago as a member of my local area cat club I helped out with rescue and welfare issues of both pedigree and non-pedigree cats within the county which the club covered.
> 
> Id taken in on a temporary foster basis a young, non-pedigree female whom the owner had decided, two thirds of the way through the cats pregnancy, that she no longer wanted. She was approximately 11 months old, so just on the cusp of being physically and mentally mature enough to cope with birth and a litter of kittens. She wasnt alarmingly small but nevertheless was just on the small side of medium for a cat of her age and a joint decision between myself, my vet and club committee members was taken to allow her to continue with the pregnancy and then spay and find homes for her and the kittens.
> 
> ...


So terribly sad ,if that doesnt make people stop and think then nothing will.


----------



## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

GSKinner that is a truely awful story... That poor cat. I wouldn't wish a situation like that on my worst enemy


----------



## Guest (Apr 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Some years ago as a member of my local area cat club I helped out with rescue and welfare issues of both pedigree and non-pedigree cats within the county which the club covered.
> 
> Id taken in on a temporary foster basis a young, non-pedigree female whom the owner had decided, two thirds of the way through the cats pregnancy, that she no longer wanted. She was approximately 11 months old, so just on the cusp of being physically and mentally mature enough to cope with birth and a litter of kittens. She wasnt alarmingly small but nevertheless was just on the small side of medium for a cat of her age and a joint decision between myself, my vet and club committee members was taken to allow her to continue with the pregnancy and then spay and find homes for her and the kittens.
> 
> ...


I have seen some pretty upsetting, horrid things with birthing but this by far is the worst thing I have read..

How sad and worse it was a preventable tragic event.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Riobelle said:


> Great thread and I'd be pleased if you wanted to share my experiences. I also wondered if people should test for fcv and herpes- causes of cat flu.


Not a bad idea, but the difficulty with FHV is that it is shed intermittently, only at times of stress, so a negative test isn't reliable. Calici is shed continually so that could be tested for.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Liz I added the FIP bit late on after I'd finished writing the rest. I was unsure as to if I should add it. It was more of a 'something to think about' thing than anything. I may yet remove that part


Yes you should. Also you should remove the bit about testing for genetic defects, those are issues with pedigree cats not non-pedigree, as much as we would all like to think otherwise. If you're going to do this, do please make sure it's accurate.

You can certainly have my horror stories when I've done this degree work, I have a week to go.

That horror story was certainly a horror story, Gskinner, made my stomach turn a bit.

Liz


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes you should. *Also you should remove the bit about testing for genetic defects*, those are issues with pedigree cats not non-pedigree, as much as we would all like to think otherwise. If you're going to do this, do please make sure it's accurate.
> 
> You can certainly have my horror stories when I've done this degree work, I have a week to go.
> 
> ...


You might do well to read Loz' post on another thread about her moggie that had HCM  Poor love. I know you can't test for HCM carriers in moggies, but you could scan then to make sure they are not suffering from the early onset of HCM.

To say moggies don't suffer from genetic conditions is ludicrous Liz, and you know it! It's just that you can't effectively test for it because you have no idea of the genetic makeup of your typical moggie. This is why I believe there is no way of ethically breeding a moggie at the moment.

However I would accept people breeding moggies as part of a special network of closely monitored individuals. It would have to be made up of either rich people who don't mind spending thousands to test for just about everything, or run/funded by a charity specifically funding such tests.

EDIT: I hope Loz doesn't mind me quoting her here, but here you go Liz, from THIS thread :



loz83 said:


> I understand the need for health tests in cats, as I had a male which had to be PTS last year
> 
> He was diagnosed with HCM (htpertrophic cardiomyopathy, thickening of the heart muscle) about 3 years ago (He was a moggie, from a farm cat) and had been on medication ever since. Luckily, at that point I was with the PDSA, and therefore didn't have to pay over £500 for his diagnosis.
> 
> ...


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> You might do well to read Loz' post on another thread about her moggie that had HCM  Poor love. I know you can't test for HCM carriers in moggies, but you could scan then to make sure they are not suffering from the early onset of HCM.
> 
> To say moggies don't suffer from genetic conditions is ludicrous Liz, and you know it! It's just that you can't effectively test for it because you have no idea of the genetic makeup of your typical moggie. This is why I believe there is no way of ethically breeding a moggie at the moment.
> 
> ...


well this post seems like common sense to me, i dont know much about cats full stop but i would have thought same as mongrels and crossbreed dogs moggies can and do inherit genetic conditions, and breeding them without testing is reckless and irresponsible.


----------



## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> I hope Loz doesn't mind me quoting her here, but here you go Liz, from THIS thread :


I dont mind at all 

The vet did say tho that it was more common in 'bred' cats rather than moggies, although, like you say, you dont know the history etc of the parentage and it could have been that a stud carrying the gene had escaped, any other number of reasons 

I would have thought tho, that like humans, anything is possible and can have genetic links, and although it was heart breaking to lose my boy, it wouldn't put me off getting another cat without knowing its back ground, I'm glad I had him while I could 

(people dont stop having children because they may carry a breast cancer gene )


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

loz83 said:


> I dont mind at all
> 
> The vet did say tho that it was more common in 'bred' cats rather than moggies, although, like you say, you dont know the history etc of the parentage and it could have been that a stud carrying the gene had escaped, any other number of reasons
> 
> ...


I know If I discovered there was breast cancer running through my family tree I would test for the gene. If it was present I wouldn't have kids (if I even had the choice to begin with ). But having said that we can make our own choices, and with the advance of science for humans there might be a way to have that gene removed from an embryo one day (if you can't already).

It's a totally different thing for our pets anyway. They don't have to have 'children'. It's our choice whether they do or not as owners. We can't read their minds so we don't know if they even want to have babies.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

loz83 said:


> I would have thought tho, that like humans, anything is possible and can have genetic links, and although it was heart breaking to lose my boy, it wouldn't put me off getting another cat without knowing its back ground, I'm glad I had him while I could


but if there are tests for conditions they should be done, cats shouldnt be suffering unecessarily like your poor lad did.x


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> You might do well to read Loz' post on another thread about her moggie that had HCM  Poor love. I know you can't test for HCM carriers in moggies, but you could scan then to make sure they are not suffering from the early onset of HCM.


Yes you could, but not all HCM has a hereditary cause Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) in cats

so yes, you could scan the moggies, but unless you have reason to suspect Maine Coon / Ragdoll ancestry (and you are mating to another cat of the same ancestry) there isn't a lot of point. Breeders of other breeds don't scan for HCM.



> To say moggies don't suffer from genetic conditions is ludicrous Liz, and you know it! It's just that you can't effectively test for it because you have no idea of the genetic makeup of your typical moggie. This is why I believe there is no way of ethically breeding a moggie at the moment.


Pedigrees are FAR more inbred than any moggy is likely to be, outside of a very rural (eg. farm) situation. If you have a recessive deleterious gene, you have to get TWO copies of it for any damage to be done, that means that BOTH parents have to carry it. The chances of that happening in a random bred population, are very small. FAR better to worry about things that are likely to happen - FHV being the big one.

Liz


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

OK Liz, do you have something you can back that up with? Have you seen national statistics from veterinary surgeries across the UK who deal with health issues in cats?

As far as I'm aware there is no documentation of the sort to prove or disprove your argument. Sadly no one can know the numbers without extensive correlation of information. They might be worse than thought for all we know. Plus you have to take in to consideration that an alarming proportion of moggie owners may not even seek veterinary treatment if their cat is sick. I know that same can be said for some ped owners as well ... but mostly moggie owners.

Given that a lot of moggies born will be rehomed within the locality of the mother and father cat, and that the chances are that those moggies will also go on to have a litter ... It makes more sense to believe the opposite of what you say.

For instance if Loz' cat had HCM and it was the genetic carried version, the chances are the rest of the litter also at least carried the gene. If they were homed locally and weren't spayed meaning the chain continued ... well there would be your two copies of the gene. It's definately not as far fetched as you make it sound Liz.

Anyway, this thread isn't about genetics!


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Can also test for:

herpes 
Feline Herpes Virus (Cat Flu)-Causes, Symptoms & Treatment of Cat Herpes. - Cat-World

chlamidiya
Feline Chlamydophila - Chlamydia - conjunctivitis in cats

calci virus
Feline Calicivirus: Symptoms, Testing, Care and Treatment of FCV Cats

HCM
Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) in cats

New tests just out, so if you have the pedigree or part one of these cats & you want to breed...You need these tests done to!

LABOKLIN (UK)|Genetic Diseases | Cats

SMA (Spinal Muscular Atrophy ) - Maine Coon

Glycogen Storage Disease ( GSD ) Type IV - Norwegian Forest Cat

Gangliosidosis GM1 / GM2 - Breeds : Korat , Siamese

rdAc-PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy ) - Abyssinian , Ocicat , Somali

rdAc-PRA + PK Deficiency - Abyssinian , Somali

Also remembering that the more cats you have you also paying for Their daily upkeep, alot of people forget that they are pets and need food/litter/yearly boosters/cat trees/toys/outdoor play houses/etc

other good reading:
Diagnostic Laboratory | Information owners | Langford Veterinary Services

http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/BreedingPolicy.pdf

(graet thread!  )


----------



## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

i know of two moggies who died at a very young age of HCM, one was very sudden, here today gone tomorrow kind of thing, the other was very sick for a short period and then put out of his misery. one was post mortemed, the other not, both had at least one parent in common, possibly two.



loz83 said:


> (people dont stop having children because they may carry a breast cancer gene )


some do 



lizward said:


> so yes, you could scan the moggies, but unless you have reason to suspect Maine Coon / Ragdoll ancestry (and you are mating to another cat of the same ancestry) there isn't a lot of point. Breeders of other breeds don't scan for HCM.


presumably though these breeders know the health background of their cats for generations back? if i am breeding any breed of cat, and can trace the ancestry of the breeding pair back for 5 or more generations, and I know there have been no HCM cases in either of the parents lines, thats surely a lot more secure than pairing two random moggies with no idea what their health status, or that of their ancestors, is.

i have never heard of a moggy breeder who knew 5 generations worth of health backgorund on both the queen and stud.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> OK Liz, do you have something you can back that up with?


Back what up? I linked to the FAB page on HCM, they are regarded as the most knowledgeable body there is. You're surely not about to dispute that random-bred cats are likely to be far less inbred than pedigrees?

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> if i am breeding any breed of cat, and can trace the ancestry of the breeding pair back for 5 or more generations, and I know there have been no HCM cases in either of the parents lines, thats surely a lot more secure than pairing two random moggies with no idea what their health status, or that of their ancestors, is.


All it means is that in those five generations there has not been a diagnosed case of HCM. Recessive genes can be carried for a lot more than five generations! However every time you go to a completely unrelated cat which does not carry that recessive gene, you halve the chances of the offspring carrying it. Of course that applies to the genes you want as well as the ones you don't want. Why are so many moggies black or black and white? Because those colours are dominant. Why are colourpoints and chocolates almost unheard of in the moggy population and blues are highly sought after? Because those colours are recessive. Why is silver, which is _dominant_ so uncommon in moggies? Because there are so few silver cats to start with.

In some breeds, _every_ mating you do is the equivalent of mating a close relative (half or even full sibling) because the gene pool is so small. The moggy situation is completely different - unless you are on a small island with no other entire cats coming in, in which case you have the same situation as with pedigrees.

That doesn't mean you can't get genetic problems with moggies, it just means that the chances are very greatly reduced. I don't know why everyone is so reluctant to face up to that simple fact. Some of you should try looking up "hybrid vigour" and "inbreeding depression", believe me you can see both of those in action in just two generations.

As a breeder of Burmese and Asians, I don't test my cats for HCM or PKD or Gangliosidosis because there has never been a case of these in my breeds. What I am desperate to do, and will do jujst as soon as the test is developed, is to test my Asians for hypokalemia. Why? Because despite a claim that there has never ever been a case of it in Asians (actually there was one but it was not made public and the owner of the carrier stud continued to breed from him) one mating I did threw a hypokalemic kitten. I know his full pedigree back six generations. But then, that breed was developed from the Burmese, you see.

Liz


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> That doesn't mean you can't get genetic problems with moggies, it just means that the chances are very greatly reduced. I don't know why everyone is so reluctant to face up to that simple fact. Some of you should try looking up "hybrid vigour" and "inbreeding depression", believe me you can see both of those in action in just two generations.
> 
> Liz


then surely the chances of inheriting genetic conditions can be reduced even further if ALL breeders did the only ethical thing and Tested ALL cats used for breeding....to cut corners and take chances with the health of any kittens is disgraceful no matter what the chances!


----------



## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> I don't know why everyone is so reluctant to face up to that simple fact.


maybe for the same reason you are so reluctant to face up to the simple fact that hcm scanning of two random moggies selected for breeding would actually be a GOOD and RESPONSIBLE and ETHICAL idea


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> then surely the chances of inheriting genetic conditions can be reduced even further if ALL breeders did the only ethical thing and Tested ALL cats used for breeding....to cut corners and take chances with the health of any kittens is disgraceful no matter what the chances!


I am all for testing breeding cats. However I suspect that if you took a moggy female to the vet and asked for a lot of tests, the vet would look at you as if you were insane. We can't yet test for all the hereditary diseases there are. If someone really wants to do these tests on a moggy, I'm not going to try to stop them, but I might well privately agree with the vet. Concentrate on the things that really do make a difference - like not rehoming the kittens at 6 weeks! 

Liz


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I Concentrate on the things that really do make a difference - like not rehoming the kittens at 6 weeks!
> Liz


Better still concentrate on spaying and castrating early enough to prevent the perennial "accidental litters" ...


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> I am all for testing breeding cats. However I suspect that if you took a moggy female to the vet and asked for a lot of tests, the vet would look at you as if you were insane. We can't yet test for all the hereditary diseases there are. If someone really wants to do these tests on a moggy, I'm not going to try to stop them, but I might well privately agree with the vet. Concentrate on the things that really do make a difference - like not rehoming the kittens at 6 weeks!
> 
> Liz


i dont have cats and i dont believe in breeding 'any animal simply to supply an already over saturated pet market...but hyperthetically speaking if i did breed and i could test for a condition that 'may' be carried by a cat i knew no ancestry of then thank the lord i have an excellent vet who certainly would not look at me as if i were insane lol, hes fully aware of bad breeders and the aftermath of their actions we speak about it often enough!......lots of rescues both pet and wildlife use him because of his fantastic reputation.

and everything irresponsible and unethical re breeding animals needs to be concentrated on imo! breeding is a Massive responsiblity or at least it should be!:rolleyes5:


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Better still concentrate on spaying and castrating early enough to prevent the perennial "accidental litters" ...


Certainly.

Liz


----------



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

This thread is missing quite a bit of info that would be useful to an owner with a pregnant cat. Was going to link it to someone just now but the information on here is more about BEFORE the cat gets pregnant and this cat will be due anytime in the next half week I think. Something to think about, what more can be added? Will link it anyway plus the info gathering thread.


----------



## profx (Apr 29, 2011)

well i hope my cat isnt pregnant, seeing as hes a guy lol


----------



## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Gratch said:


> This thread is missing quite a bit of info that would be useful to an owner with a pregnant cat. Was going to link it to someone just now but the information on here is more about BEFORE the cat gets pregnant and this cat will be due anytime in the next half week I think. Something to think about, what more can be added? Will link it anyway plus the info gathering thread.


What info is missing? All I can see is maybe about weighing kittens. Everything else looks pretty covered to me.


----------



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

There doesn't seem to be any practical advice, just things to consider before or very early on. For the rest of the pregnancy alone (about a week or so left for the poster in Cat Chat): 


The stages of cat labour
Emergency supplies for cat labour
When to go to the vet pregnancy & labour
Resuscitation, cutting the cord, breaking the sac
What to watch out for

off the top of my head. I'm sure others could think of things that would be useful also.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Gratch said:


> This thread is missing quite a bit of info that would be useful to an owner with a pregnant cat. Was going to link it to someone just now but the information on here is more about BEFORE the cat gets pregnant and this cat will be due anytime in the next half week I think. Something to think about, what more can be added? Will link it anyway plus the info gathering thread.





Gratch said:


> There doesn't seem to be any practical advice, just things to consider before or very early on. For the rest of the pregnancy alone (about a week or so left for the poster in Cat Chat):
> 
> The stages of cat labour
> Emergency supplies for cat labour
> ...


This thread isn't missing any info! It's a thread to deter ... it wouldn't be appropriate to giving birthing info on such a thread IMO.

I'm hardly surprised _you_ don't think there is any practical info


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I agree with Gratch - facts are this thread is like Auriella says - a deterrent it really is not going to answer all the questions of a newbie with a cat already pregnant - im not saying its not a good and should be made a sticky but ultimately I thought this was supposed to be about helping newbies with pregnant cats without all the bickering  correct me if im wrong.


----------



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> This thread isn't missing any info! It's a thread to deter ... it wouldn't be appropriate to giving birthing info on such a thread IMO.
> 
> I'm hardly surprised _you_ don't think there is any practical info


Part of your thread title is: Do you think your cat is pregnant? 
I assumed you were covering more than just the pre-pregnancy info. My mistake.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Part of your thread title is: Do you think your cat is pregnant?
> I assumed you were covering more than just the pre-pregnancy info. My mistake.


Yes your mistake! I guess you missed the bottom paragraph, you know the one in bold on my OP then? 

Seriously, this thread isn't meant for pregnancy advice! No doubt there will be another thread for that. To put such info on this thread would make it contradictory IMO, perhaps even hypocritical.

The ultimate goal is to prevent folk from breeding their moggie willy nilly.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Yes your mistake! I guess you missed the bottom paragraph, you know the one in bold on my OP then?
> 
> Seriously, this thread isn't meant for pregnancy advice! No doubt there will be another thread for that. To put such info on this thread would make it contradictory IMO, perhaps even hypocritical.
> 
> The ultimate goal is to prevent folk from breeding their moggie willy nilly.


Ok I thought you meant this to be the one for the pregnancy one etc ....


----------



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Ok I thought you meant this to be the one for the pregnancy one etc ....


I guess it will be ok to continue with my idea after all then, though Aurelia if you would like, certain parts could be edited out and yours could be the intro and part on costs/why you need to stay with your cat?


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Gratch said:


> I guess it will be ok to continue with my idea after all then, though Aurelia if you would like, certain parts could be edited out and yours could be the intro and part on costs/why you need to stay with your cat?


I'm willing to add important parts I've missed, but I won't be removing anything as none of it needs removing.

The reason I haven't written a pregnancy advice thread is because I don't feel experienced enough. Someone like gskinner would be better writing that I think ... or one of the other ethical breeders who don't hesitate to seek veterinary help when needed, and does everything in their power to make sure they are breeding from healthy cats.

I have only breed one litter after all, so I don't have hands on experience for emergency situations. Someone who has been breeding for years and has had many litters would be better.


----------



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> I'm willing to add important parts I've missed, but I won't be removing anything as none of it needs removing.
> 
> The reason I haven't written a pregnancy advice thread is because I don't feel experienced enough. Someone like gskinner would be better writing that I think ... or one of the other ethical breeders who don't hesitate to seek veterinary help when needed, and does everything in their power to make sure they are breeding from healthy cats.
> 
> I have only breed one litter after all, so I don't have hands on experience for emergency situations. Someone who has been breeding for years and has had many litters would be better.


Fair enough


----------



## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> The reason I haven't written a pregnancy advice thread is because I don't feel experienced enough. Someone like gskinner would be better writing that I think ... or one of the other ethical breeders who don't hesitate to seek veterinary help when needed, and does everything in their power to make sure they are breeding from healthy cats.


Very humble of you Aurelia. I think this is a very good post, and maybe could be followed up by a 'if you have ignored all the above' or 'its too late' post, (not in those words, of course  with the basic ins and outs of

Do this: etc


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I've been thinking lately about the upcoming time of year and thought I'd bump this thread.

It would be great if it could be tidied up a little (the bickering :blush, then maybe it might make a difference.


----------



## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Great thread Aurelie and very well written too. Hope it helps many cat owners to spay their cats.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

One thing I would like to stress is that if people intend to breed their cat by leaving the back door open, even it their cat is completely healthy, they may not be after mating.

Entire toms are notoriously territorial fighters and the vast majority of them are farm cats or semi-ferals, as an entire tom tends to be a far from perfect house cat, spraying indoors with badly stinking urine. The precentage of FIV, FeLV and corona-infections amongst them is far higher than in ordinary house cats, and they spread the diseases by fighting and mating.

Allowing your cat to mate with any old free-roaming tom is the surest way to get her infected with some disease or other.

I have lost 2 cats to FIP, one from a litter of farm cats, the other from a rescue cat found pregnant in the street. Seeing them die like that broke my heart, it is such a horrible disease.....
And I have yet another cat that may well develop FIP, as 2 out of 4 cats from that litter have definitely died of FIP, one at 8 weeks, the other at 10 months.

A friend of mine runs the rescue of a local charity, and the horror and grief he has gone through with diseased cats, births going wrong and kittens wasting away before his eyes is staggering. I do not understand how he can bear it. He is devastated at every loss, no matter if he has had the cat in his rescue for some time or just caught it and taken it straight to the vet for a first check-up...

And yes, he gets many in-bred moggies. There is a campsite where, every spring, a fair number of semi-feral kittens and very young pregnant cats are being caught, most of them diluted red tabbies, blues and diluted torties. They are rare in moggies, at least they are over here, so it is a sure sign of inbreeding within an isolated group. 

My peach tabby Romeo, with a grade 4 heart murmur, is one of these campsite cats. The location of the main clowder remains a mystery, they may be living in the woods near the camp site, or on some neighbouring farm. The few relatively old cats (older than 4 or 5) he did manage to catch near the camp site were all desperately ill and had to be pts.


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks Aurelia. Trapped another cat at our colony last night. Desperately ill, could hardly eat. Took him to vet for euthanasia, vet suspects FIV. This colony lives adjacent to a residential area where free roaming housecats live. Yet every time I mention on this forum and elsewhere about the dangers of FIV and FELV for free-roaming cats, I am told the risk is low. I have seen these housecats eating, playing and fighting with the colony cats. I know of at least 3 other ferals in that area who are ill (most likely full blown FIV) which I still have to trap. And heaven know how many who are still not showing signs of infection.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> Thanks Aurelia. Trapped another cat at our colony last night. Desperately ill, could hardly eat. Took him to vet for euthanasia, vet suspects FIV. This colony lives adjacent to a residential area where free roaming housecats live. Yet every time I mention on this forum and elsewhere about the dangers of FIV and FELV for free-roaming cats, I am told the risk is low. I have seen these housecats eating, playing and fighting with the colony cats. I know of at least 3 other ferals in that area who are ill (most likely full blown FIV) which I still have to trap. And heaven know how many who are still not showing signs of infection.


The risk varies hugely. A friend who lives near Fleetwood (UK) feeds a mostly neutered colony (she has not managed to trap the oldest female who keeps having kittens) and they are beautiful healthy cats, though a couple have been killed on the roads. Several of the kittens have become tame enough to home.

Because most of them are neutered, they don't tend to fight. Of course new entire males keep showing up, but again they get trapped and neutered which greatly reduces the threat to other cats as they mostly stop fighting.


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> The risk varies hugely. A friend who lives near Fleetwood (UK) feeds a mostly neutered colony (she has not managed to trap the oldest female who keeps having kittens) and they are beautiful healthy cats, though a couple have been killed on the roads. Several of the kittens have become tame enough to home.
> 
> Because most of them are neutered, they don't tend to fight. Of course new entire males keep showing up, but again they get trapped and neutered which greatly reduces the threat to other cats as they mostly stop fighting.


Yes, we have trapped and sterilised most of the ferals. New ones dumped keep turning up though. However, the free roaming housecats are often entire toms. Feral cats are in any case very territorial and will aggressively defend their territory, neutered or not. However, simple sharing of bowls is also a risk for FELV, I believe. I have had two kittens from that colony test positive for FELV in the past.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Most housecats here in the UK are neutered - how on earth can anyone have an entire male housecat? Most of the spray, and their urine always smells vile. You are right about sharing food bowls, if done before the saliva dries (FeLV is very fragile) and mutual grooming is another risk.


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Unfortunately, unlike the UK, we have far to go in terms of general good responsible pet ownership. Many people don't bother about getting their male cats neutered. If the cats start spraying they take it to the SPCA, or dump it on the side of the road. Actually, I don't even want to talk about it today: am a bit upset (four more kittens dumped yesterday by someone in a BMW - fancy car but too stingy to take care of his cat)


----------

