# Just a passing thought....



## sami87 (Aug 27, 2010)

I mostly lurk on these forums (I rarely have anything of use to say being a very new cat owner) but I have noticed on this forum since I've been here that there is a huge amount of tension around accidental pregnancies. 

I was wondering if maybe a sub-forum could be created that dealt with this specific issue, so people that want to offer help, support, advice etc can do so.. and those that just can't abide by it, can avoid it altogether? 

Again, just a thought.... It's sad to see what this issue does to the threads and forum.... 

* runs away and hides *


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

A good thought but when I said about creating a sticky to help with the same issues people were highly negative about it. Maybe it's because I have a litter of moggie kittens myself and therefor anything I say on the matter isn't valid but the general consensus (to which I disagree) is it will basically be a 'how to' guide which is how they will probably also view the sub section. You never know, I could be proved wrong  You may want to try the forums suggestion bit and see what happens with an unbiased view!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Gratch said:


> A good thought but when I said about creating a sticky to help with the same issues people were highly negative about it. Maybe it's because I have a litter of moggie kittens myself and therefor anything I say on the matter isn't valid but the general consensus (to which I disagree) is it will basically be a 'how to' guide which is how they will probably also view the sub section. You never know, I could be proved wrong  You may want to try the forums suggestion bit and see what happens with an unbiased view!


Oh stop being a martyr! The negativity wasn't cos you wanted to write one but cos you blatantly disregarded everything which would need to be written in it! Hypocrisy is no fun.

This is so headed for a lock but I can't deal with you acting like you were trying to save the world...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> This is so headed for a lock


Well that will make a change, won't it.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

This forum is about CAT BREEDING. Where people who want to breed cats come. Those who can't keep their cats in but don't neuter them should go under general cat chat. If it were me that's where I would head. 

It just annoys me that people do not neuter their cats. It doesn't cost much.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> Well that will make a change, won't it.


People will continue to talk crap and people will continue to be irked by it, so yeah it wont change.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Oh stop being a martyr! The negativity wasn't cos you wanted to write one but cos you blatantly disregarded everything which would need to be written in it! Hypocrisy is no fun.
> 
> This is so headed for a lock but I can't deal with you acting like you were trying to save the world...


Why don't you just put me on ignore? Anyway I think it would be a good idea but I do think the best chance of seeing anything come of it would be in the forum suggestions section and letting admin/mods debate it


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Gratch said:


> Why don't you just put me on ignore? Anyway I think it would be a good idea but I do think the best chance of seeing anything come of it would be in the forum suggestions section and letting admin/mods debate it


You, your boyfriend, your mam and your best friend?

No I wont put you on ignore. I want to be able to see what you are posting so I can respond to the contrary when necessary. And its often neccessary.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Fair enough.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

sami87 said:


> I was wondering if maybe a sub-forum could be created that dealt with this specific issue, so people that want to offer help, support, advice etc can do so.. and those that just can't abide by it, can avoid it altogether?


Did you mean 'those who just can't abide by it' or 'those who just can't abide it' ?

I'd be in favour of a sub forum for a topic that I cannot abide, that way I'd simply never look and be tempted to make comment.

I wouldn't be very happy though to have a sub forum that told me if I can't abide by majority opinion or make my own thoughts known without being told to moderate what I'm saying by members who aren't even moderators themselves, then no, I wouldn't be in favour of that.


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## sami87 (Aug 27, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Did you mean 'those who just can't abide by it' or 'those who just can't abide it' ?
> 
> I'd be in favour of a sub forum for a topic that I cannot abide, that way I'd simply never look and be tempted to make comment.
> 
> I wouldn't be very happy though to have a sub forum that told me if I can't abide by majority opinion or make my own thoughts known without being told to moderate what I'm saying by members who aren't even moderators themselves, then no, I wouldn't be in favour of that.


Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry!!! Argh, I'm regretting saying anything already now.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

sami87 said:


> Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry!!! Argh, I'm regretting saying anything already now.


Don't. In some ways I think its a good idea, in some ways I really dont. I am on the fence about the subject in general.

Obviously I have strong opinions on other things which happened to come up on your thread. My opinion on your general idea is neutral


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Biawhiska said:


> This forum is about CAT BREEDING. Where people who want to breed cats come. Those who can't keep their cats in but don't neuter them should go under general cat chat. If it were me that's where I would head.
> 
> It just annoys me that people do not neuter their cats. It doesn't cost much.


I think that is a perfect solution. The cat breeding section is populated by cat breeders who, in the vast majority, do so responsibly. Moggie breeders, for want of a better title or description, are bound to get a rough ride in a section dedicated to the responsible and ethical breeding of cats. Isn't that what the breeding section is for? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

sami87 said:


> Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry!!! Argh, I'm regretting saying anything already now.


Nooo, why should you regret posting. It's a perfectly good question  Though I must admit the other suggestion about posting re accidental moggie litters in the general cat chat section is a great idea and would save an awful lot of friction.

By the way, sorry, I still don't know from your answer what you meant


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I think that is a perfect solution. The cat breeding section is populated by cat breeders who, in the vast majority, do so responsibly. Moggie breeders, for want of a better title or description, are bound to get a rough ride in a section dedicated to the responsible and ethical breeding of cats. Isn't that what the breeding section is for? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


I think a lot of people end up here, like i did, by putting something into google, and this forum pops up a lot 

I also think that the breeders on here know a lot about pregnancy, birth, and how to look after ur queen when she's had the kittens, eg. I wouldn't have known to weigh them had it not been for this site 

I also didn't know it was possible for a cat to need a c-section, so being a part of this forum possibly saved the life of one of my kittens and my girl, and I will always be grateful 

Isn't it right that we afford everyone with that sort of help?


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I think that is a perfect solution. The cat breeding section is populated by cat breeders who, in the vast majority, do so responsibly. Moggie breeders, for want of a better title or description, are bound to get a rough ride in a section dedicated to the responsible and ethical breeding of cats. Isn't that what the breeding section is for? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


that's my issue, this section, as stated at the top of the page is supposed to be about RESPONSIBLE BREEDING. Moggy breeding is irresponsible, and as such, to have so many posts with so many litters of irresponsibly bred litters of kittens on a section populated by ethical breeders is just wrong and it legitimises moggy breeding too to have the two extremes of breeding side by side. I too would prefer two breeding sections, the responsible ethical breeding section, and the irresponsible unethical breeding section.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> You, your boyfriend, your mam and your best friend?
> 
> No I wont put you on ignore. I want to be able to see what you are posting so I can respond to the contrary when necessary. And its often neccessary.


the one thing that keeps me coming back to this forum is the small amount of people like you who have the courage to speak out, despite the fact they get hassled for their anti moggy breeding beliefs. never give that up.


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## LittleTyke (Apr 14, 2011)

I think an idea like this has pros and cons.

You run the risk of the people who are most in need of help and advice being offered advice not by 'ethical, responsible breeders' but by people whose experience and knowledge is far less than the breeders in this section.

On the plus side, it may put an end to pointless rants that suceed only in making the poster feel better but don't actually help the cats, which is surely what we're all here for? (these are general comments and not aimed at anyone in particular)

I think there's a defference between constructive criticism and ranting, but this is verging toward the other so I'll end it now!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

hmmm........... this may be totallly irrelivent to this thread.... but i would ask the breeders who sell their pedigree kittens for £3/£4/£500 ......... if every moggy was spayed .... and only pedigree kittens were avaliable to the world........ what about the people who cant afford to pay such prices for your kittens... or maybe they dont want a specific breed... just a cat to love and be a part of their family.... 

where do they go
what do they do
only so many people can afford that amount on a kitten/cat so what happens when because of the price people stop buying ur kitten... do you then lower the price? then make a loss? then compromise on their healthcare/quality of food etc to compensate, then to compensate further you start selling them younger, (8 weeks like all the moggy kittens you so despise) 
where does it stop, and what do you do?

wont it just mean that pedigree cats will start roaming the streets instead of moggies .... then it goes back to the same issue....


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Shayden said:


> hmmm........... this may be totallly irrelivent to this thread.... but i would ask the breeders who sell their pedigree kittens for £3/£4/£500 ......... if every moggy was spayed .... and only pedigree kittens were avaliable to the world........ what about the people who cant afford to pay such prices for your kittens... or maybe they dont want a specific breed... just a cat to love and be a part of their family....
> 
> .


Well I would suggest if you cant afford that, you cannot afford the upkeep of a cat... My cats weren't cheap, admittedly, but I have spent MUCH MUCH MUCH more than that neutering, vaccinating, chipping, feeding, litter, etc.

Cats arent cheap, and are a responsibility, not a right. I am not saying all cats should be £xxxxx, but, they are not cheap animals to 'run' so if £500 is a big outlay, then, maybe a cat isnt for you. It could cost that for an illness, etc.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Well I would suggest if you cant afford that, you cannot afford the upkeep of a cat...


no offence, but i think thats rubbish.... a person may not have £500 to spend on a pedigree kitten BUT that doesnt mean they cant afford to pay cat insurance, food etc for a cat! there are several schemes about (one that i am a part of) i pay £25 a month and all my vet fees are covered (except an excess of £40 for any mishapz) everything from wormers, to flea treatment to boosters to accidents!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Shayden said:


> no offence, but i think thats rubbish.... a person may not have £500 to spend on a pedigree kitten BUT that doesnt mean they cant afford to pay cat insurance, food etc for a cat! there are several schemes about (one that i am a part of) i pay £25 a month and all my vet fees are covered (except an excess of £40 for any mishapz) everything from wormers, to flea treatment to boosters to accidents!


So the person could use that outlay, save for 5-6 months, and buy one. if they have that expendable income, they can afford the £500 outlay through saving. I dont have £500 to throw about each month, but I saved to get my kittens, and I spend at last £100 each month on their upkeep.

£25 a month for your vet scheme, say £25 for food (conservative estimate) £50 a month. Save for ten months. You got your kitten...


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

loz83 said:


> Isn't it right that we afford everyone with that sort of help?


Yes, absolutely. And if the sort of topic we're talking about could be posted in the cat chat section, rather than breeding, then anyone who chooses to give advice there can do so. And it means those of us who simply cannot face reading episode after episode of accidental moggie pregnancies without eventually resorting to comment (which might not be liked by the OP or other people) no longer have to do so.

The term 'breeding', to me, implies something that is undertaken with care and forethought and with an ultimate aim in mind. I joined this forum because I'm a cat breeder and thought the cat breeding section of the forum would be something I'd enjoy contributing to and gaining knowledge from.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Shayden said:


> hmmm........... this may be totallly irrelivent to this thread.... but i would ask the breeders who sell their pedigree kittens for £3/£4/£500 ......... if every moggy was spayed .... and only pedigree kittens were avaliable to the world........ what about the people who cant afford to pay such prices for your kittens... or maybe they dont want a specific breed... just a cat to love and be a part of their family....
> 
> where do they go
> what do they do
> ...


I take your point. But in my opinion the day moggies stop being 'cheap' will be the day some, and I stress *some* people no longer treat them as cheap, disposable commodities.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

I agree.... you want what you want! and I saved up for my cats and breed responsibly ... BUT lets flip the coin..... if thats the case then what about all the kittens in the rspca and shelters they charge a minimal fee for the cats but can actually do home checks and make sure that someone is home for the kitten etc does that mean these people who pay a minimal amount arnt taking care of their cats.... because thats what your implying! ... how many breeders who charge £500 for their kittens go around the country doing home checks, making sure there is someone at home with the kittens for most of the day and can guarentee that the cat will be cared for (just because uve charged extra)... any random person can ring you up and enquire about a kitten and buy one and give some bull excuse about someone is at home most of the time and i dont want to breed from them, and they will be well taken care of! obviously as a breeder i know the reason why pedigree cats are expensive BUT just because someone doesnt have half a grand to shell out on a cat doesnt mean they wont be well taken care of... maybe more so because they didnt spend that amount of money buying the kitten in the first place! therefore the addition treat/catbed/cat tree isnt beyond reach!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Wait a minute. Where did I say people who get cheap/free kittens are unable to look after them!?

I said that if they have the disposable income to look after a cat, then, in your hypothetical situation, they could save up for the £500 cats you said would become the norm!

Do I agree that someone with no disposable income should get a free kitten. No! Cos they cant afford to keep it. If they can afford to keep a cat I dont care if they pay £1 or £1000!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

you said if they cant afford to buy the cat then they cant afford the upkeep........ so if they cant afford the upkeep ur in turn saying they will be starving their cat/kitten, or giving them sub standard food... and they will not be able to go to the vet if their kitten/cat is ill, etc etc etc 90% of people cant and wont spend £400 on a kitten and its NOT because they cant afford to maintain them


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shayden said:


> hmmm........... this may be totallly irrelivent to this thread.... but i would ask the breeders who sell their pedigree kittens for £3/£4/£500 ......... if every moggy was spayed .... and only pedigree kittens were avaliable to the world........ what about the people who cant afford to pay such prices for your kittens... or maybe they dont want a specific breed... just a cat to love and be a part of their family....
> 
> where do they go
> what do they do
> ...


cheapest cat ive seen is £200 for a moggie, why not save the extra money and get a fully health tested wel brought up fully vac / wormed kitten? possibly neutered to to boot! :001_smile:

after you buy this cheap kitten you end up doing all of this anyway...(Owell SOme people do some dont)

good breeders dont make any money barely break even due to all the costs we put in.

'average moggie breeder' buy cheap cat, let cat out to get pregnant, let go at 5-8weeks.

good pedigree breeder: check lines up to 1/2years previous, health tests cat, pays from £300-1000 in a Stud fee (diff breeds im going on) mum eats four times as much, fed good quality food. wormed, whelping items all bought, mum has kittens, may need c-section £700, may need vet help etc etc. may need to be hand reared, topped up.

kittens wormed, fed good quality food, litter trained, vet checked twice heart/ears/eyes/tummy/paws. given 2 x vacs £50 each.

some are now neutered before going, so kittens go to new homes around 12-16weeks of age.

currently one of my litters is around £16 per day in food/litter, not to mention toys, vets today etc etc, pedigree costs me £10 to print due to the cost of ink & the photo paper!! then the registering fees. website fees, petrol to stud, cost of calling mobiles (and I can talk for england! thats £75 this month alone!) quality camera for piccis, showing... etc etc

I know Who I would rather go to!!! I still have to save for stuff! We certainly arent rolling in it, but my cats are my kids I choose to do it, if I didnt have the money or couldnt afford £30 to neuter, I certainly would Not have a litter of kittens!!! :001_smile:

You said that you breed? what do you breed? most pedigree breeds are around £350-450, only a Few are over that!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Shayden said:


> you said if they cant afford to buy the cat then they cant afford the upkeep........ so if they cant afford the upkeep ur in turn saying they will be starving their cat/kitten, or giving them sub standard food... and they will not be able to go to the vet if their kitten/cat is ill, etc etc etc 90% of people cant and wont spend £400 on a kitten and its NOT because they cant afford to maintain them


You said what if ALL cats became £400. In that case, if people really wanted them, they could save. If they have the income to pay for the upkeep of a cat, they have the income to save the money for these hypothetical cats you are talking about.

I dont see how this is so hard to understand...


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

I know the cost of raising a litter and i understand the price of a PEDIGREE cat.... but what im saying is.... i do think its unfair to say that if u dont wanna spend £500 on a kitten then u cant afford to maintain one. people do it every day! i was brought up with a cat who died at the age of 16.. i dont ever recall that cat going to the vet thru my childhood! (im not saying this is how you should treat cats obviously)

my point is.... will all you breeders continue to breed your queens even if you struggle to find homes for them due to the initial cost of paying for a kitten! and when you cant find homes for these kittens........ what will you do!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Shayden said:


> I know the cost of raising a litter and i understand the price of a PEDIGREE cat.... but what im saying is.... i do think its unfair to say that if u dont wanna spend £500 on a kitten then u cant afford to maintain one. people do it every day! i was brought up with a cat who died at the age of 16.. i dont ever recall that cat going to the vet thru my childhood! (im not saying this is how you should treat cats obviously)
> 
> my point is.... will all you breeders continue to breed your queens even if you struggle to find homes for them due to the initial cost of paying for a kitten! and when you cant find homes for these kittens........ what will you do!


Not 'wanting' to spend £400 on a cat, and being 'unable to' are totally different things.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

currently one of my litters is around £16 per day in food/litter, not to mention toys, vets today etc etc, pedigree costs me £10 to print due to the cost of ink & the photo paper!! then the registering fees. website fees, petrol to stud, cost of calling mobiles (and I can talk for england! thats £75 this month alone!) quality camera for piccis, showing... etc etc



aside from the essential (lets assume health checks etc have been done) .... if you bred a healthy non pedigree kitten (for the purpose of a pet home which is what most of you sell them as) 

you would then save on the £10 to print the pedigree, the registration fees, the petrol to a specific stud plus stud fee (this doesnt mean you mate it with some randum tom in ur garden.... but as ur looking to breed a healthy PET it then isnt nessasary to travel far and wife and pay above the odds stud fee for a grand champ for example)

like you said... this is £75 a month for the litter, obviously you add on for the costs of vets and injections etc but it would still be significantly less money and you would still produce a happy healthy PET rather than a PEDIGREE PET with which the savings you can sell for less to the consumer!


like i said... im not against the prices of pedigree cats i know what goes into them and i know i can easily spend £1500 on a litter of kittens but for those who cant or dont want to pay such money (£400 plus) for a kitten they can still get a happy healthy kitten who is vet checked and disease free without buying a pedigree cat and then saying well if u cant afford it then you cant afford the upkeep!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Shayden said:


> does that mean these people who pay a minimal amount arnt taking care of their cats.... because thats what your implying!


You surely don't think I was implying that people who have paid little for a cat/kitten hold it in equally low regard? Even if I did think that, which I most certainly do not, do you think I'd be stupid or brave enough to say that amongst all the folk here who own and love moggies?

Shayden, I can't speak for all breeders, I can only tell you how things are for me, as a breeder. I have few litters per year, I've been breeding very successfully (which does not necessarily equate with show success) for a very long time. I have the most popular breed (as pets) in the UK. The enquiries I receive far outstrip the number of kittens I have available. It allows me to pick and choose homes with great caution.

Sure anyone enquiring could feed me a load of BS and there's always the chance, admittedly, that I'll believe them. But do you think that is any different than a shelter volunteer, sat in someone's home with a cuppa doing their home check being fed BS by a prospective owner?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

God I feel like I am talking to a brick wall.

IF you can afford a kittens upkeep, you CAN afford to save up for a expensive kitten. You may not want to, which is fine, like i said I dont care how much anyone pays for a kitten, but you COULD afford it IF you wanted to.

If you CANNOT afford to save up for a pedigree kitten, then no, in my opinion, you cannot afford the upkeep. You might not want a pedigree! Thats fine! but if economically it would be impossible for you to save £400 for a kitten, then i dont think you have the funds per month to pay for the upkeep (which would be what you would be saving IF you wanted the pedigree!)


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

i also asked before.... if demand dried up for kittens due to the amount breeders charge would you then stop breeding?


like i said before this isnt an attack... just questions to get peoples views 


also not everyone wants to wait a year to save up and get a cat/kitten for their family/home ... they are in a position to purchase a cheaper (but not less adiquet) kitten and take care of it just as well if not better than someone may do a pedigree


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

gskinner my comment wasnt at you my dear! but i agree with your post


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Shayden said:


> also not everyone wants to wait a year to save up and get a cat/kitten for their family/home ... they are in a position to purchase a cheaper (but not less adiquet) kitten and take care of it just as well if not better than someone may do a pedigree


But that is their choice! They want a kitten now so choose to get a cheap/free kitten and just start paying the upkeep immediately.

I NEVER said that those who bought a cheap/free kitten wouldnt be able to care for it. Please show me where i said that, as that has come ONLY from you!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Shayden said:


> my point is.... will all you breeders continue to breed your queens even if you struggle to find homes for them due to the initial cost of paying for a kitten! and when you cant find homes for these kittens........ what will you do!


I can instantly tell you my answer to that - I give up breeding, immediately. It's something I've thought and worried about for the last 3 years or so since we've been in recession.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> God I feel like I am talking to a brick wall.
> 
> IF you can afford a kittens upkeep, you CAN afford to save up for a expensive kitten. You may not want to, which is fine, like i said I dont care how much anyone pays for a kitten, but you COULD afford it IF you wanted to.
> 
> If you CANNOT afford to save up for a pedigree kitten, then no, in my opinion, you cannot afford the upkeep. You might not want a pedigree! Thats fine! but if economically it would be impossible for you to save £400 for a kitten, then i dont think you have the funds per month to pay for the upkeep (which would be what you would be saving IF you wanted the pedigree!)


okey dokey... dont ur knickers in a twist and get arsy with with me! like i said, it was just a question! it wasnt a personal attact! 
if you feel like your talking to a brick wall please feel free to knock urself out on it as well


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Shayden said:


> okey dokey... dont ur knickers in a twist and get arsy with with me! like i said, it was just a question! it wasnt a personal attact!
> if you feel like your talking to a brick wall please feel free to knock urself out on it as well


I won't if you don't completely take what I said out of all context, twist it, add your own stuff and attribute such horrible thoughts to me, which I never said.

You come in with a hypothetical situation and make a big deal out of it!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I can instantly tell you my answer to that - I give up breeding, immediately. It's something I've thought and worried about for the last 3 years or so since we've been in recession.


thats good to know! I would hope everyone else also felt this way.... but at the same time... it would basically mean letting some amazing breeds of cats die off!

its so nice to get a decent conversation/debate going with a reasonable answer rather the sarcastic and rude commentary


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

If there was no demand for the kittens I breed, then yes, I would stop breeding.
Please do not let this thread disintegrate into personal rows though.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

loz83 said:


> *I think a lot of people end up here, like i did, by putting something into google, and this forum pops up a lot*
> 
> I also think that the breeders on here know a lot about pregnancy, birth, and how to look after ur queen when she's had the kittens, eg. I wouldn't have known to weigh them had it not been for this site
> 
> ...


I just wanted to say something here. The part of your post which I have bolded is one of the reasons why I personally reply the way I do to the threads we are talking about.

I've said it before but I will again ... If all of these accidental breeding threads were met with fluff and delight (Ohh, can't wait to see pictures etc etc), people googling would not see that it is not a good thing to do. Most would probably go on their merry way and raise litter after litter ... until they get a problem that is. Then they rely on experienced breeders to give them help.

If someone is in genuine need of help, I will help every time. It doesn't mean I have to like it or that I have to fake liking it either. But I'd never see an animal come to harm just because someone peed me off with their irresponsibility.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Shayden said:


> thats good to know! I would hope everyone else also felt this way.... but at the same time... it would basically mean letting some amazing breeds of cats die off!


I suppose dire circumstances beget dire consequences. In the scheme of things, the almost eradication of certain breeds which occurred as a result of WW's 1 & 2 would not be considered 'dire' when compared to the atrocious loss of human life. But that's what happened with some breeds; mos breeds, I think, for obvious reasons.

And when times are otherwise very hard financially for people then buying a pedigree kitten or puppy for some people is an unaffordable luxury which will, I suppose, lead to people having to give up breeding. It's just unfortunate that it leaves the door wide open to those who do it on the cheap, unethically.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shayden said:


> I know the cost of raising a litter and i understand the price of a PEDIGREE cat.... but what im saying is.... i do think its unfair to say that if u dont wanna spend £500 on a kitten then u cant afford to maintain one. people do it every day! i was brought up with a cat who died at the age of 16.. i dont ever recall that cat going to the vet thru my childhood! (im not saying this is how you should treat cats obviously)
> 
> my point is.... will all you breeders continue to breed your queens even if you struggle to find homes for them due to the initial cost of paying for a kitten! and when you cant find homes for these kittens........ what will you do!


what has that got to do with people letting moggies outside to become pregnant 

anyway, my answer? neuter and Id keep them all or find good homes?

Im very lucky, I havent had to advertise my last 3 litters, Ive had people waiting for them all to be born, on refferals, or people finding my website, get to know everyone. But then good breeders are like that and people dont mind waiting however long it takes. for a well bred kitten, or puppy for that matter.

if you want one 'right now' then Id be asking if they have researched? What are they looking for? Impulse buy etc?



Shayden said:


> currently one of my litters is around £16 per day in food/litter, not to mention toys, vets today etc etc, pedigree costs me £10 to print due to the cost of ink & the photo paper!! then the registering fees. website fees, petrol to stud, cost of calling mobiles (and I can talk for england! thats £75 this month alone!) quality camera for piccis, showing... etc etc
> 
> aside from the essential (lets assume health checks etc have been done) .... if you bred a healthy non pedigree kitten (for the purpose of a pet home which is what most of you sell them as)
> 
> ...


where is this magically place where they are getting theser health testedfully vac disease free 'cheap' kittens from????

I really do not get what you are saying at all, how does this not all cost what I just said?!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

i never said they would be cheap kittens, but they would be cheaper!

and its great that you dont have to advertise your kittens and you have loads of referrals etc.... I would assume thats because you have been in the business for a little while and have a good reputation for breeding healthy and well balanced kittys 



lymorelynn said:


> If there was no demand for the kittens I breed, then yes, I would stop breeding.


thats good to know also

reason why i asked the initial question is because so often now im seeing people breeding my choice of breed (bsh) with either no papers for cheaper (usually because their cat isnt on the active) or because they dont have any paperwork at all... they are selling these kittens for £350 for example at 8 or 9 weeks with none or only 1 injection. or people buying moggies and so called pedigrees without papers purely because they are cheaper!

the kitten ive just purchased that i paid £500 for has been sold to me (i paid a substantial deposit) i was then told to pic it up 2 weeks earlier with only one injection and basically if i declined i would loose my deposit! so kinda didnt have a choice


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2011)

Can I just pop in and say that:

1) Save up for a pedigree cat over time if £500 is alot of money (as it is to many of us).

2) Moggie cats are sometimes cheap but it really depends.. 1 of mine cost £50, the other £80 and the other £40 (at 5 month old) and I went to look at 1 moggie that was £250.

3) IF you dont have x amount to spay your cat then how will you afford the cost of a litter of kittens (food, vet bills, possible problems with birth, litter). 

I have 3 moggies and NO pedigree cats. However I can honestly say when people come on here and say their cat is pregnant because they cant afford to spay YET keep the litter knowing the costs involved/risks involved it really does confuse me.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

maybe its just me... but im rubbish at saving! if it takes more than 2 months... chances are something else will come up and wont end up getting it..... i can only imagin saving up for amost a year for a cat then a freak bill comes or my car breaks down and the funds go to something else.... the initial outlay of the price eof a cat doesnt negate the fact that one can financially take care of a kitten after purchase, which is why 90% of people will get a cheap kitten and not a pedigree, especially of they dont plan on breeding or arnt particularly wild about the specific breed! by this i dont suggest one should go out and purchase a randum posibly unhealthy kitten just because its cheap! but im saying a cat can still be healthy, have all relevant tests/injections done and be sold cheaper than your average pedigree, especially as things like a large stud fee and pedigrees and possibly cat shows (even though im sure most of you dont add this to the price of your kittens..... but at the same time a grand champ stud costs substantially more than a regular healthy non shown stud costs) arnt factored into the end cost of the kitten 

most moggies that cost £250 usually are half pedigree or are a specific colour (blue for example) which is why they feel they can charge more yet havent actually added to their initial costs by giving the cat their injections etc before going to their new homes.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

i never said they would be cheap kittens, but they would be cheaper!

and its great that you dont have to advertise your kittens and you have loads of referrals etc.... I would assume thats because you have been in the business for a little while and have a good reputation for breeding healthy and well balanced kittys 

*I am NOT a business, and no, Im still classed as a new breeder (even though it has been a fair few years now) and totally happy to be, Im still learning from much more expereinced breeders and Im MORE than happy to do so, to get to where they are now is my dream, sad as it may seem to many, my dream is to have a 5 generation pedigree of all my own breeding & people showing my cats!

anyway! new or not, if you produced health tested well reared fantastic kittens, then I dont care if its 10years or 10minutes!*
thats good to know also

reason why i asked the initial question is because so often now im seeing people breeding my choice of breed (bsh) with either no papers for cheaper (usually because their cat isnt on the active) or because they dont have any paperwork at all... they are selling these kittens for £350 for example at 8 or 9 weeks with none or only 1 injection. or people buying moggies and so called pedigrees without papers purely because they are cheaper!

the kitten ive just purchased that i paid £500 for has been sold to me (i paid a substantial deposit) i was then told to pic it up 2 weeks earlier with only one injection and basically if i declined i would loose my deposit! so kinda didnt have a choice

*RIGHT! Of course they are selling them that is called making money!!
So basically your saying............cut corners?!?!?! Be like these people?! Dont bother doing 2nd injections...dont give out papers... Sooooooooooo?? No reputable breeder does this!! so of course it will save them money as they arent spending it and 4/5weeks early is going to save these people on litter/worming/vacs/paperwork, so nearly all of that money is Profit, no health tests... British are normally around £350 at 12-13weeks old anyway with papers!

so basically breeding moggies lol!

Your telling me that you breed british shorthairs, and you bought a breeding quality girl for £500, and this person said to you 'pick her up now before her 2nd vac or lose deposit?'

You know what? Id report her, and ID go to small claims court, and praise the lord I didnt line her pockets with money!!

Are they actually registered breeders that can pick out a breeding queen??*


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

but im saying a cat can still be healthy, have all relevant tests/injections done and be sold cheaper than your average pedigree, *how?*

especially as things like a large stud fee and pedigrees and possibly cat shows (even though im sure most of you dont add this to the price of your kittens..... but at the same time a grand champ stud costs substantially more than a regular healthy non shown stud costs) arnt factored into the end cost of the kitten

nope stud fees are normally the same for a supreme to a non titled cat, infact in most breeds there is a 'standard' fee, which the stud all costs the same to use etc.

and also you shouldnt go on a 'pedigree' when breeding, just as you must know being a breeder, 2 highly titled cats can produce non show worthy cats, 2 non titled can create champions...

so your going to be selling your kittens at £250 un vac no paperwork 8weeks old etc?


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

So basically your saying............cut corners?!?!?! Be like these people?! Dont bother doing 2nd injections...dont give out papers... Sooooooooooo?? No reputable breeder does this! <<<< dont put words in my mouth, i would never dream of doing such a thing nor did i say to! ... even if i had a moggie i would do all the things that i would with my pedigree kittens, injections and all, knowing that i probably wouldnt get the money back but thats not the point! so long as their healthy and ive done everything i can it should be done regardless of pedigree or not.


yes i have reported her to the gccf.

at first i thought about going to small claims court, but the time and energy it would take just to get a hearing was ridiculous and even then i wouldnt have known what proof to bring and if i had a case or what lies she would come up with as my receipt didnt actually have the age of which i was supposed to collect the kitten.... to my knowledge its just been standard practice to collect a pedigree cat at 13 weeks a week after their second injection etc.
and to be honest, if i didnt collect her, she just would have gone to someone else and would have kept my money anyway so for the sake of 2 weeks i got her! (she was going away for the bank holiday and needed the kittens gone before she went).

hopefully the gccf will strike her off and not allow her her to register any further kittens


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

when i looked into a stud for my girl i found that grand champs were in the region of £250 and untitled studs were between £100 and £150 with the same health tests etc pkd neg, blood grouped and snap tested


and no imnot a back yard breeder so would not ever consider selling my kittens for £250 without vacs or pedigree



and in regard to moggies they wouldnt have a pedigree! i personally wouldnt get a moggie because the chances are the parents wouldnt have been tested for any diseases and i could end up with a very sick cat later on which may also have something my other cats could catch! which is why i advocate testing in all cats not just the pedigree ones who someone can make a profit from


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Can you two get the quoting thing right, it makes for a confusing read :lol:

EDIT: also wanted to add ... I think it's disgusting that you now have to pay to report someone through the GCCF  http://www.gccfcats.org/disciplinaryprocedures.html


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shayden said:


> yes i have reported her to the gccf.
> 
> at first i thought about going to small claims court, but the time and energy it would take just to get a hearing was ridiculous and even then i wouldnt have known what proof to bring and if i had a case or what lies she would come up with as my receipt didnt actually have the age of which i was supposed to collect the kitten.... to my knowledge its just been standard practice to collect a pedigree cat at 13 weeks a week after their second injection etc.
> and to be honest, if i didnt collect her, she just would have gone to someone else and would have kept my money anyway so for the sake of 2 weeks i got her! (she was going away for the bank holiday and needed the kittens gone before she went).
> ...


its actually really cheap to go to small claims and can all be done online, about £25.



Shayden said:


> when i looked into a stud for my girl i found that grand champs were in the region of £250 and untitled studs were between £100 and £150 with the same health tests etc pkd neg, blood grouped and snap tested
> 
> and no imnot a back yard breeder so would not ever consider selling my kittens for £250 without vacs or pedigree
> 
> nd in regard to moggies they wouldnt have a pedigree! i personally wouldnt get a moggie because the chances are the parents wouldnt have been tested for any diseases and i could end up with a very sick cat later on which may also have something my other cats could catch! which is why i advocate testing in all cats not just the pedigree ones who someone can make a profit from


bloody hell do you know how cheap £250 is for a stud fee? I thought you were talking about £500-1000, what some cost!! £250 is very cheap! wouldnt mbe moaning about a extra £100!!!

lol you have come full circle and I still dont get what you are saying!!!!

*So basically your saying............cut corners?!?!?! Be like these people?! Dont bother doing 2nd injections...dont give out papers... Sooooooooooo?? No reputable breeder does this! <<<< dont put words in my mouth, i would never dream of doing such a thing nor did i say to! ... even if i had a moggie i would do all the things that i would with my pedigree kittens, injections and all, knowing that i probably wouldnt get the money back but thats not the point! so long as their healthy and ive done everything i can it should be done regardless of pedigree or not.*

I didnt...thats what you said to keep costs down...?


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

yeah i know the price where i live its £30 but it takes about 6 months for a hearing ! and no i said thats what people do, i didnt say i would ever do that or that it should be done. i think youve quoted me wrong somewhere!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> Can you two get the quoting thing right, it makes for a confusing read :lol:
> 
> EDIT: also wanted to add ... I think it's disgusting that you now have to pay to report someone through the GCCF  Welcome to the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy


dont forget the 50p to pay via card!

and i very much doubt people are gonna stump up a further £150 which they might not get back!..... its ridiculous! even if the claim is true! theres still no guarantees


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shayden said:


> yeah i know the price where i live its £30 but it takes about 6 months for a hearing ! and no i said thats what people do, i didnt say i would ever do that or that it should be done. i think youve quoted me wrong somewhere!


but you were saying about these cheap health tested kittens? dont choose higher stud fees go earlier? dont give out pedigrees save money etc? for people that cant afford them?? read back over your posts... makes no sense at all??  :crazy:


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Well I'm not a breeder of cats, I own 3 moggies have never owned anything else as I'm not really interested in a particular breed if I was i would save and buy one, like i did when i decided i wanted Registered dogs again. Moggies over here are free all 3 of my girls are up to date on shots and all have been spayed. Spaying is the first thing my vet brings up when you go in for first shots and he tells you what he considers a good age to do it. I don't believe that every person that wants a cat or a dog for that matter necessarily want a purebred. My last dogs (all passed now) were all crosses and I loved em as much as I love the purebreds I now own. My next cats will be moggies too but hopefully not for many years to come...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Shayden said:


> hmmm........... this may be totallly irrelivent to this thread.... but i would ask the breeders who sell their pedigree kittens for £3/£4/£500 ......... if every moggy was spayed .... and only pedigree kittens were avaliable to the world........ what about the people who cant afford to pay such prices for your kittens... or maybe they dont want a specific breed... just a cat to love and be a part of their family....
> 
> where do they go
> what do they do
> ...


There are two different issues here. If there were no moggies then obviously the demand for pedigrees would be higher because people will spend money on something they want enough. Retired breeding cats will always be available and are much cheaper than kittens.

Regarding what we do if the market dries up, with minority breeds where the initial "marketing" has not been done well (or at all), there isn't much of a market to start with. One very well respected and very well established breeder in one of my breeds has recently announced her intention to give up and one major factor in her decision has been the difficulty in selling kittens. I am still in the position (just) where I am able to take a large loss on breeding so the bottom line is that I am still breeding and if I end up having to literally give the kittens away (it happened with two last year at 7 months) then so be it. They all get treated the same way here and that will continue to be the case.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Well I would suggest if you cant afford that, you cannot afford the upkeep of a cat...


But the initial outlay is a large sum and is paid in cash / cheque rather than by credit card. That can make quite a difference. I would love to buy another cat but I can't because I don't have it, and even if I did, my husband would object to my spending it like that, but a vet bill would be paid without difficulty

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Shayden said:


> the kitten ive just purchased that i paid £500 for has been sold to me (i paid a substantial deposit) i was then told to pic it up 2 weeks earlier with only one injection and basically if i declined i would loose my deposit! so kinda didnt have a choice


That's disgusting  - I hope they at least reduced the price?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> sad as it may seem to many, my dream is to have a 5 generation pedigree of all my own breeding & people showing my cats!


Could be a while, TB. I haven't even got that yet (4 generations only) and I've been going for 18 years. I did have an almost total line wipeout in the middle of course, when I was up to three generations, which didn't help. And unless you keep a lot of studs you will always have someone else's prefix in there somewhere, I don't think I've ever seen a pedigree which has only one prefix in five generations.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Shayden said:


> hopefully the gccf will strike her off and not allow her her to register any further kittens


They won't. You have to do something FAR worse than that to get "struck off"

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> I think it's disgusting that you now have to pay to report someone through the GCCF


We don't agree often, but here I do agree with you. It makes it easier for unscrupulous breeders to "do" novice buyers.

Liz


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lizward said:


> They won't. You have to do something FAR worse than that to get "struck off"
> 
> Liz


Indeed you do, unfortunately.

I know you'll already be aware of this, Liz, but I think a lot of people assume that breeders are bound by certain rules (which they are to some extent obviously) which affords them protection in buying a registered kitten but so much of it is just recommendation, not rule.

Something cropped up a few weeks ago which prompted me to write to GCCF and ask their standpoint on breeders selling *registered* kittens at 8/9 weeks, having only given them a homoeopathic vaccine. Their reply (and I'll have to paraphrase as I can't recall word for word) was that they would only take up a complaint if it could be proved with the backing of veterinary evidence that the kitten had suffered as a direct result of not being traditionally vaccinated and leaving the breeder at 8/9 weeks.

In my opinion, if you have a registered prefix with GCCF and are selling kittens registered with them then you should be *bound* to give a full course of traditional vaccinations and not let kittens go until 13 weeks. Such a simple rule to put in place but I guess it would lose GCCF some precious revenue, given that their main source of income is kitten registrations and the breeders who practice the above would simply stop registering


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> but you were saying about these cheap health tested kittens? dont choose higher stud fees go earlier? dont give out pedigrees save money etc? for people that cant afford them?? read back over your posts... makes no sense at all??  :crazy:


i mean if the parents are health tested etc then by default so would the kittens be! and im talking about moggies so therefore they wouldnt have a pedigree nor would they have a high priced stud fee!! you keep on talking about pedigree cats!....

wow @ £500 to £1000 on stud fees....... <<< on that basis alone are you going to tell me that something like that isnt a factor when marketing kittens! ..... thats exactly my point that would be added onto the price of the kittens to obviously recoop so me costs whereas if you dont have the huge outlay of paying such things for a pedigree cat the price for kittens would surely be cheaper!

liz thank you for your input!.... someone gets it lol


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

I dont know a lot about breeding or pedigrees, but I think that some people, myself included, care a lot about their cats and do the best for their queen/kittens if they are moggies, i'm sure there are a lot a of kitten farms, where they don't give a damn about the queens and kittens, only about the money they can make on selling a pedigree cat, they dont make sure the buyers are good people, and im sure its these types of pedigrees that end up on the streets and in the rescues 

Just because moggies breed it doesn't mean that the owners will do any less for the kittens than the responsible pedigree owners do  Its the unethical kitten farms that should be the aim of so much anger that runs through this forum, but these people wont come on here, as they dont care about breeding, only about the money


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

loz83 said:


> Just because moggies breed it doesn't mean that the owners will do any less for the kittens than the responsible pedigree owners do  Its the unethical kitten farms that should be the aim of so much anger that runs through this forum, but these people wont come on here, as they dont care about breeding, only about the money


A genuine question asked in all sincerity... do kitten farms actually exist? Have any actually been exposed/brought to the public's attention/shut down, etc?

I feel fairly sure, Loz, that the overpopulation of moggies is driven almost entirely by 'ordinary' people failing to get their cats neutered at an appropriate age with either the deliberate intent of trying to make a few bob from selling the kittens or as a result of being ill-informed (or not informed at all) as to when they should be spayed/neutered to prevent mating. But of course, equally there are unethical pedigree breeders that fall only a little short of 'kitten farming'. I personally make no distinction between the two when it comes to where I express my anger.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

loz83 said:


> Just because moggies breed it doesn't mean that the owners will do any less for the kittens than the responsible pedigree owners do


you are joking right?

there may be the odd moggy breeder out there who does right by their cat and its kittens, but they are the tiny tiny exception, not the rule. In fact they are so much the exception I have yet to meet one.

can you name me one, just one, moggy breeder who has health tested both parents prior to breeding?

can you name me one moggy breeder who selects both parents, not just on their health suitability, but in their good temperament?

can you name me one moggy breeder who has an aim with breeding that is more than "well a litter of kittens is cute"?

what percentage of moggy kittens do you think go to their new (vetted) homes, at 13 weeks old, complete with both vaccinations, a vet health check, and treated fully for fleas and worms?

what percentage of moggy breeders do you think would be willing, 3 or 8 years after they have rehomed a kitten, to take it back because the new owners circumstances had changed and they could no longer care for the cat?

obviously I don't mean the kittens rehomed via rescues, I mean the produce of "accidental" litters rehomed by the people who allowed the "accident" to happen in the first place.

I have never met a moggy breeder who breeds with an aim, who health tests, who keeps kittens for 13 weeks, homechecks, rehomes kittens fully wormed and deflead, and would be willing to take the cat/kitten back in the event that new owner couldnt care for the cat anymore.

I do know there might be 1 (or 2 or maybe even 5) moggy breeders out there who might fulfill the above criteria, but all responsible pedigree breeders do all of the above, and more, as standard practice.

Sorry but to even try comparing moggy breeding and ethical pedigree breeding is ridiculous.

So in reality, yes it does mean that moggy breeders do a lot less for their kittens than responsible pedigree breeders do.

of course in an ideal moggies COULD be bred ethically, but we are not talking about what COULD happen, we are talking about what DOES happen


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I wonder what exactly constitutes a 'kitten farm'? An unethical breeder - registered or not, selling several different pedigree breeds ( usually the ones that are the most popular and expensive of the day) or someone who makes money from breeding and selling moggy kittens? Or are they both kitten farms?
To be honest I am more concerned about those in the former category as I believe that the majority of 'pure' moggies (i.e not ones that are from a cross mating of a pedigree and any old cat) come about through the 'accidental' (I use that word advisedly - unable to think of another) mating of an un-spayed pet.
Education is the only answer to that problem. It is the first thing a vet says when a kitten goes for its jabs, unfortunately these kittens often are not even vaccinated so the education must start elsewhere.
There will however, still be those who want to make quick, easy money by cutting all the corners and costs associated with breeding ethically. That is what needs to be stopped just as much.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> do kitten farms actually exist?
> I feel fairly sure, Loz, that the overpopulation of moggies is driven almost entirely by 'ordinary' people failing to get their cats neutered at an appropriate age





lymorelynn said:


> I believe that the majority of 'pure' moggies come about through the 'accidental' (I use that word advisedly - unable to think of another) mating of an un-spayed pet.


you're both right, of course.

shelters arent full to bursting point with the offspring of mythical kitten farms run by bogeymen.

Shelters are full to bursting point because of ordinary people, like the ones who post on this forum, who have a pet cat, dont get it neutered, and let it out to wander, or let it mate with their other unneutered cat.

but its easier on consciences to blame it all on the bogeyman


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

at the moment the reality is that responsible breeding of moggies as a whole isnt going to happen any time soon!... as they are not as desirable as purebreds people are not willing to spend the money on a good standard of care eg keeping till 13 weeks and giving vacs! because they arnt getting back a decent "return" or even breaking even! obviously good standard of caregoes beyond this with ethical breeders and i personally dont mind making an acceptable loss on my litters because im not doing it for the money! its something i love doing and if i couldnt find homes for them i would spay my studs and queen with no questions asked! 
people are fooled into believeing "my cat should experience at least one litter before being spayed" or "its will stunt their growth if i spay/nuter too young" <<<< these are things ive been brought up with! ive noticed that especially with a tom... they tend to be bigger, more muscle and more.... MANLY (for lack of a better word) than a cat who was nutered at a young age (i was told this is due to them not fully developing and not having a chance to grow up properly) for example in humans if something was to happen and your uterus gets taken out before puberty.... you wouldnt produce the same physical characteristics as you would if you were ..... (for lack of a better word) entire lol! (eg your hips wouldnt be as wide and your brests wont be as big as they would have been) 

i dont know how true this is or if any1 else has experience on this though!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Shayden said:


> people are fooled into believeing "my cat should experience at least one litter before being spayed or "its will stunt their growth if i spay/nuter too young" <<<< these are things ive been brought up with! ive noticed that especially with a tom... they tend to be bigger, more muscle and more...MANLY (for lack of a better word) than a cat who was nutered at a young age (i was told this is due to them not fully developing and not having a chance to grow up properly) for example in humans if something was to happen and your uterus gets taken out before puberty.... you wouldnt produce the same physical characteristics as you would if you were ..... (for lack of a better word) entire lol! (eg your hips wouldnt be as wide and your brests wont be as big as they would have been)
> 
> i dont know how true this is or if any1 else has experience on this though!


I certainly believe these are the old wives tales that have to be changed before any progress can be made  I'm not sure about the medical analogy as I've had no experience of such things.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

catsmum said:


> you are joking right?
> 
> there may be the odd moggy breeder out there who does right by their cat and its kittens, but they are the tiny tiny exception, not the rule. In fact they are so much the exception I have yet to meet one.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, Loz, the above is the truth of the matter. I've been on the planet for a long time and I've yet to see, hear of or meet someone who breeds mogs in any way even *approaching* responsibly. I'm not a pedigree snob, honest  I love moggies for their uniqueness and in a lot of cases much prefer them to many pedigree breeds of cat which really don't appeal to me in looks and/or temperament.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Unfortunately, Loz, the above is the truth of the matter. I've been on the planet for a long time and I've yet to see, hear of or meet someone who breeds mogs in any way even *approaching* responsibly. I'm not a pedigree snob, honest  I love moggies for their uniqueness and in a lot of cases much prefer them to many pedigree breeds of cat which really don't appeal to me in looks and/or temperament.


loz is getting mixed up between techinical possibilities and realities

of course it is technically possible to breed moggies in an ethical manner

it just doesnt ever happen

the nearest you get to ehtical and respnosible with moggiy kittens is when you get them from a reputable shelter, but the ethical and responsible bit in that scenario only kicks in after the kittens are born, or when they fall into the hands of the resuce organisations. there is nothing remotely ethical about how those kittens were bred. rescue organisations can only try to make their rearing and rehoming as ethical and responsible as possible


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

Fair enough, my kittens 'parents' weren't health checked 

but they have had the best start in life, and I will quite happily keep them until 12-13 weeks, or longer if i don't find homes suitable for them 

I dont want them going to any old person that fancies a pet, I want people that love them and will do whats best for them 

They will be wormed, and they are already flea'd (due to me having an outdoor cat) and also vaccinated before they go. 

I would also readily take them back or find an alternative home if the owners circumstances changed, but i understand that i am probably in the minority or moggie owners who would go to these lengths


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I understand all that, Loz  I think you're in a minority for all you're doing for and with your kittens in a 'world' of moggie breeding. My post was, admittedly, a generalisation and about the majority.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lizward said:


> Could be a while, TB. I haven't even got that yet (4 generations only) and I've been going for 18 years. I did have an almost total line wipeout in the middle of course, when I was up to three generations, which didn't help. And unless you keep a lot of studs you will always have someone else's prefix in there somewhere, I don't think I've ever seen a pedigree which has only one prefix in five generations.
> 
> Liz


lol I have 2, well itll be 2 next year on one side... :lol: Although it looks like one as my prefix wasnt sorted in time so Ellie was given the yearly one 

Oh I know, still its my dream! 



Shayden said:


> i mean if the parents are health tested etc then by default so would the kittens be! and im talking about moggies so therefore they wouldnt have a pedigree nor would they have a high priced stud fee!! you keep on talking about pedigree cats!....
> 
> wow @ £500 to £1000 on stud fees....... <<< on that basis alone are you going to tell me that something like that isnt a factor when marketing kittens! ..... thats exactly my point that would be added onto the price of the kittens to obviously recoop so me costs whereas if you dont have the huge outlay of paying such things for a pedigree cat the price for kittens would surely be cheaper!
> 
> liz thank you for your input!.... someone gets it lol


yes if you didnt have that outlay like moggie accident litters dont you earn money...or non vac vet checked health tested...cant have it both ways 



loz83 said:


> I dont know a lot about breeding or pedigrees, but I think that some people, myself included, care a lot about their cats and do the best for their queen/kittens if they are moggies, i'm sure there are a lot a of kitten farms, where they don't give a damn about the queens and kittens, only about the money they can make on selling a pedigree cat, they dont make sure the buyers are good people, and im sure its these types of pedigrees that end up on the streets and in the rescues
> 
> Just because moggies breed it doesn't mean that the owners will do any less for the kittens than the responsible pedigree owners do  Its the unethical kitten farms that should be the aim of so much anger that runs through this forum, but these people wont come on here, as they dont care about breeding, only about the money


erm noooo its actually the average 'accidental litter' people who create the problem...



gskinner123 said:


> A genuine question asked in all sincerity... do kitten farms actually exist? Have any actually been exposed/brought to the public's attention/shut down, etc?
> 
> I feel fairly sure, Loz, that the overpopulation of moggies is driven almost entirely by 'ordinary' people failing to get their cats neutered at an appropriate age with either the deliberate intent of trying to make a few bob from selling the kittens or as a result of being ill-informed (or not informed at all) as to when they should be spayed/neutered to prevent mating. But of course, equally there are unethical pedigree breeders that fall only a little short of 'kitten farming'. I personally make no distinction between the two when it comes to where I express my anger.


well I had to go undercover  and we did get a kitten farm shut down, only reason we were alerted (in my breed) was due to people calling us asking for help, buying kittens that just died the night they got home.

The house was awful, cages and upon cages of kittens/mum, not allowed to see mum, kittens about 6weeks old not moving eyes red covered in crust  cats giving birth in cages under curtains to make it dark! whilest in a living room ful of kids screaning playing on the latest games with abig old 60 inch tv...

got her to stop, yet she then went on to breed dogs, alot more money in them! :frown: esp the toy / cross ones 

some people buy them in from others, like where my boy is from, not one cat in the house yet they have 1-4 litters per month :blink: I now know where they AND the local new pet shop buy them from, cant say on here, but there we go! No one seems to really care!


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## missye87 (Apr 4, 2011)

I'll probably have my head chopped off for this, but given half the chance I would have had Soots as an indoor cat if it only gave me the chance to mate him with another moggy properly. He has always been healthy, up until recently, and has the best personality ever. 

I would have loved to have had him sire kittens as he is an absolutely wonderful cat, and I would have liked to have one of his kittens. Maybe that's just me being silly and soppy at the thought of losing him and having little to hold on to once he goes, but so be it.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

missye87 said:


> I'll probably have my head chopped off for this, but given half the chance I would have had Soots as an indoor cat if it only gave me the chance to mate him with another moggy properly. He has always been healthy, up until recently, and has the best personality ever.
> 
> I would have loved to have had him sire kittens as he is an absolutely wonderful cat, and I would have liked to have one of his kittens. Maybe that's just me being silly and soppy at the thought of losing him and having little to hold on to once he goes, but so be it.


thing is you dont know his back ground? what health checks if any can be performed?

also I dont think alot of people know this but just beacause your boy is loving etc, doesnt mean that his kittens will be ANYTHING like him, Ellie is NOTHING like meg her mum, little one is nothing like her mum I mean in looks and personality wise.

its a combo of both plus nurture plus nature etc

but I think that most people think 'awwww my cat/dog/bunny/bird/etc would have made a great dad/mum, but then they realise and neuter' Elvis & Tay are great cats, would have had gorgeous bubas!!  but...Its never gonna happen as they were chopped at 5 months old  and are very happy cats for it! :001_smile:


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## CAstbury (Oct 24, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Well I would suggest if you cant afford that, you cannot afford the upkeep of a cat... My cats weren't cheap, admittedly, but I have spent MUCH MUCH MUCH more than that neutering, vaccinating, chipping, feeding, litter, etc.
> 
> Cats arent cheap, and are a responsibility, not a right. I am not saying all cats should be £xxxxx, but, they are not cheap animals to 'run' so if £500 is a big outlay, then, maybe a cat isnt for you. It could cost that for an illness, etc.


That is so not true! I wouldnt dream of paying £300+ for a cat - because pedigree breeds just do not appeal - but I can afford to insure, worm, vaccinate, neuter and anything else that she needs. I also have horses, dogs and guinea pigs and all except the guinea pigs are vaccinated, insured, neutered.

Why do all the 'responsible breeders' assume that everyone wants a pedigree cat?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

CAstbury said:


> That is so not true! I wouldnt dream of paying £300+ for a cat - because pedigree breeds just do not appeal - but I can afford to insure, worm, vaccinate, neuter and anything else that she needs. I also have horses, dogs and guinea pigs and all except the guinea pigs are vaccinated, insured, neutered.
> 
> Why do all the 'responsible breeders' assume that everyone wants a pedigree cat?


There are SO many breeds to choose from though? Do you know every breed of cat? And None of them appeal?...
Why would someone choose a 5-8week old un-health tested vet checked poorly raised kitten over a well raised 12week old vet checked fully vac kitten with health tested carefully planned?

You have labs in your sig? why have that breed then? why not just have a randomly un known farther(s) poorly brought up going at 4weeks old mongrel?

Edit:
these are 2 graet websites, surely one of these takes your fancy...
http://cats.about.com/cs/breedprofiles/a/breeds_a.htm

fanastic site:
http://www.pictures-of-cats.org/


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## CAstbury (Oct 24, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> There are SO many breeds to choose from though? Do you know every breed of cat? And None of them appeal?...
> Why would someone choose a 5-8week old un-health tested vet checked poorly raised kitten over a well raised 12week old vet checked fully vac kitten with health tested carefully planned?
> 
> You have labs in your sig? why have that breed then? why not just have a randomly un known farther(s) poorly brought up going at 4weeks old mongrel?
> ...


My 'moggy' came into my family because she was going to be thrown out on the street by some irresponsible woman who bought her for her kids and then couldnt be 'bothered' to pay for her to go into a cattery when they went on holiday. She was advertised on Gumtree - when I went to pick her up I was stunned to hear the little boy say 'when we get back off holiday we are going to get a puppy'  I didnt 'choose' her as an 8 week old kitten - I chose her as a 5 month old who was going to end up homeless. I'm a sucker for a sob story.

Anyway, as soon as I got my girl settled i got her spayed 

I have Labradors because my mom and dad had one was I was a toddler and when that a litter was available I put a deposit on Chloe.

I do have a mongrel - X breed - Francis is allegedly a Labrador X but is actually suspected to be Great Dane/Ridgeback/GSD or similar! I saved him from being pts. He spent all his life until Dec 09 in a crate in a shed owned by a byb in Ireland.

Basically apart from my Labradors (which are as already said my choice because of good childhood memories) - all my pets are rescues.

Suppose I am helping to pick up the pieces or people who cant be ar$ed to neuter


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

CAstbury said:


> My 'moggy' came into my family because she was going to be thrown out on the street by some irresponsible woman who bought her for her kids and then couldnt be 'bothered' to pay for her to go into a cattery when they went on holiday. She was advertised on Gumtree - when I went to pick her up I was stunned to hear the little boy say 'when we get back off holiday we are going to get a puppy'  I didnt 'choose' her as an 8 week old kitten - I chose her as a 5 month old who was going to end up homeless. I'm a sucker for a sob story.
> 
> Anyway, as soon as I got my girl settled i got her spayed
> 
> ...


Its the same for people who has siamese from a kid then and want them growing up  so could either go to a rescue for siamese or buy a kitten, pedigrees normally have their own dedicated rescue, or the breeder takes them back (no matter how many years later) and finds them new homes, moggies...end up being in rescue or how your baby come to you, I wonder if she would have done the same if it was a pedigree cat?? I do think that some people see them as being 'worth less' 

BUt I actually dont think we need any new cat or dog breeds, I think there is more than enough without crossing them all over the shop, nout wrong with mogs, I have 2 of them!! Itsthe way they are bred that we want to try and stop 

lol dont start Im a sucker to :


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## CAstbury (Oct 24, 2010)

My saved 'moggy' - spayed but beautiful


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

CAstbury said:


> My saved 'moggy' - spayed but beautiful


now your being mean!! I LOVE torties :001_wub: Shes gorge!


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> cheapest cat ive seen is £200 for a moggie, why not save the extra money and get a fully health tested wel brought up fully vac / wormed kitten? possibly neutered to to boot! :001_smile:
> 
> after you buy this cheap kitten you end up doing all of this anyway...(Owell SOme people do some dont)
> 
> ...


not sure if you ment £200 or £20 cheapest for a moggie lol


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Marley boy said:


> not sure if you ment £200 or £20 cheapest for a moggie lol


lol I meant £200!! if you look online £200 ok 'pretend pedgirees' like tabbys being sold as pedigree ragdolls...come on people!!! :

sure you can get them for £20, even £5! Id still rather rescue one than give them 50p though!


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## missye87 (Apr 4, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> thing is you dont know his back ground? what health checks if any can be performed?
> 
> also I dont think alot of people know this but just beacause your boy is loving etc, doesnt mean that his kittens will be ANYTHING like him, Ellie is NOTHING like meg her mum, little one is nothing like her mum I mean in looks and personality wise.
> 
> ...


I think we might have been one of the exceptions!

We met Sooty's both parents and grandparents actually! She was a moggy breeder living on a farm in Sweden, had acres of land but all she wanted to do was have her horses and her cats!  She was much like you, she bred as a hobby as she would never have gotten enough money for them to cover costs.

She would keep one or two of her favorites from the litters and sell the rest for a small amount of money (I think she was old money as I'm not sure how she could afford it otherwise!). She didn't breed very often either, considering the amount of cats she had, it was usually about 2 litters a year, and they were retired early. She didn't use all the kittens she kept for breeding, many times she neutered them and kept them because she loved them too much!

They had been tested by vets for any hereditary diseases and they were well brought up, handled, vaccinated, wormed, flea-treated etc etc. My mum had worked at some posh old peoples home and she used to visit her mum there, and that's how they met. She mentioned that she had the runt of the litter left and nobody wanted him, so she was going to keep him. Mum mentioned she wanted a kitten for us - and suddenly we were with kitten! We bought him for the equivalent of £1.50 as it's considered bad luck to get a kitten for free in Sweden! 

We visited her many times even after getting Sooty and all her cats were lovely animals and very well taken care of!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

CAstbury said:


> That is so not true! I wouldnt dream of paying £300+ for a cat - because pedigree breeds just do not appeal - but I can afford to insure, worm, vaccinate, neuter and anything else that she needs. I also have horses, dogs and guinea pigs and all except the guinea pigs are vaccinated, insured, neutered.
> 
> Why do all the 'responsible breeders' assume that everyone wants a pedigree cat?


Did I say you had to buy a pedigree? No. But, save the outlay for a cat and you COULD afford one IF you wanted one. Which you dont. Which is fine,

But technically you could afford one if all cats became £400. You may not want to pay that, which is fine, but you could if you wanted to.

Can people seriously not read?

Paying for upkeep means you 'could' afford to save that upkeep money up til it is a large amount. I couldnt buy a 400quid cat tomorrow, but I could save the money I would spend feeding it, and THEN I could afford it.


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## CAstbury (Oct 24, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Did I say you had to buy a pedigree? No. But, save the outlay for a cat and you COULD afford one IF you wanted one. Which you dont. Which is fine,
> 
> But technically you could afford one if all cats became £400. You may not want to pay that, which is fine, but you could if you wanted to.
> 
> ...


Below is your response to Shayden's comments about people who can't afford to buy a pedigree, which to me (and others I would guess) clearly indicates that you are suggesting if we cannot afford £300+ for a pedigree cat then we can't afford to keep them.

And yes I can read thank you - I am quite educated 

Why are some people so argumentative? 



gloworm*mushroom said:


> *Well I would suggest if you cant afford that, you cannot afford the upkeep of a cat*... My cats weren't cheap, admittedly, but I have spent MUCH MUCH MUCH more than that neutering, vaccinating, chipping, feeding, litter, etc.
> 
> Cats arent cheap, and are a responsibility, not a right. I am not saying all cats should be £xxxxx, but, they are not cheap animals to 'run' so if £500 is a big outlay, then, maybe a cat isnt for you. It could cost that for an illness, etc.





Shayden said:


> hmmm........... this may be totallly irrelivent to this thread.... but i would ask the breeders who sell their pedigree kittens for £3/£4/£500 ......... if every moggy was spayed .... and only pedigree kittens were avaliable to the world........ *what about the people who cant afford to pay such prices for your kittens*... or maybe they dont want a specific breed... just a cat to love and be a part of their family....


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Cat food is £20 a month, for example. That is 'expendable income'

You save that money, you get the money for a pedigree cat.

Where do i say people with free kittens cannot afford the upkeep? Nowhere.

I simply stated if push came to shove in Shaydens hypothetical situation, people who could afford cats could save up the money theyd spend on the cat if they got it immediately, to get it at a later date.

What I am saying is, there is no such thing as 'not being able to afford a pedigree'

There is 'not being able to afford a pedigree right this second' which is entirely different. You can wait and get a pedigree, if you want, or you can get a cheaper kitten now, and start paying for it now. There is absolutely no difference.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I just happen to luv moggies and over here they are usually free unless you go to a rescue, but if you buy a rescue it already has its shots and is fixed. So no extra cost. My moggies live a pretty good life span the last 3 were 20, 13, 15 and current ones are 16 and 2 at 3 yrs old. The 16 year old Shade did miss our last old cat when she passed, and shade is the best cat for training dogs with, never draws blood but will gently tug on their jowels or bat em without her claws out. I'm just not bothered with a pedigree cat just like for many years I decided to only own 1 pedigree dog and 5 crosses some rescue some not


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## Emma-Jayne (Apr 23, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Cat food is £20 a month, for example. That is 'expendable income'
> 
> You save that money, you get the money for a pedigree cat.
> 
> ...


Coming from a background working for a credit card company, a lot (not all) of people don't save anymore. SOME people want what they want now. We now live in the world of buy now pay later NOT THAT THIS APPLIES TO CATS KITTENS OR BREEDERS. We simply as a nation don't save up anymore. I do but SOME people don't.

Not siding with any side here as I have little experience to guide me. I like all cats moggies and pedigrees I choose to adopt from a sanctuary.

I have been reading the breeders pages just to learn about kittens and the best place to start is when and after they are born. I have no intension of breeding I just wanted to learn as I am hoping to adopt a kitten shortly and I'm trying to become a kitten expert to care for her properly.

One thing that has become clear is that with our beloved moggies there can be a question about their health and this is something I haven't really thought about. If he is poorly he goes to the vet. I havent thought about screening as prevention that he may already have something from birth.

My cat goes for his boosters every year and a general health check (or rarely if he needs treatment in emergency) Is there a more indepth blood testing check I can get done to try and identify any inhereted ilnesses or diseases? He has no causes for concern and has never been ill. I just like to make sure I am doing the right thing for them and my vet has never mentioned this?


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## MatildaG (Nov 8, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Cat food is £20 a month, for example. That is 'expendable income'
> 
> You save that money, you get the money for a pedigree cat.
> 
> ...


I'm not really sure what is so difficult to understand about the above??

The question posed was 'what if there were only expensive pedigrees available' implying that people who want a cat wouldn't then be able to get one. The answer explains how. Save the money you would spend on the upkeep of a cat until you have the amount you need.

Also, just because people today are incapable of saving (as implied by others) - surely that's their own fault? I don't see why the world of breeding should compensate for people who can't save.

I love moggies and have grown up with moggies, and I now have a Persian which I saved for.

Just my two cents 
MG x


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

CAstbury said:


> My saved 'moggy' - spayed but beautiful


shes beautiful, i love torties,,


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## Emma-Jayne (Apr 23, 2011)

MatildaG said:


> I'm not really sure what is so difficult to understand about the above??
> 
> The question posed was 'what if there were only expensive pedigrees available' implying that people who want a cat wouldn't then be able to get one. The answer explains how. Save the money you would spend on the upkeep of a cat until you have the amount you need.
> 
> ...


You mean implied by me  I didn't say the world of breeding should compensate for people who can't save up. I just offered an opinion of why people may not save up.

I do understand what was written above I have GCSE's in English. Again I was just offering an opinion. But I guess I'm not welcome so to so, so I'm off back to cat chat.

Happy chatting all


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## MatildaG (Nov 8, 2010)

Emma-Jayne said:


> You mean implied by me  I didn't say the world of breeding should compensate for people who can't save up. I just offered an opinion of why people may not save up.
> 
> I do understand what was written above I have GCSE's in English. Again I was just offering an opinion. But I guess I'm not welcome so to so, so I'm off back to cat chat.
> 
> Happy chatting all


I meant implied by a few people, including yourself but that wasn't an insult in any way so not sure why you are offended by that? I'd probably agree that most people these days can't be bothered saving.

Or are you saying you weren't implying that? 

In terms of the rest of it, that was my opinion and not aimed at an individual.

MG x


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

CAstbury said:


> My saved 'moggy' - spayed but beautiful


She is lovely 

Good to see some people can manage to do the right thing, makes you wonder why others find it so difficult


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## CAstbury (Oct 24, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> She is lovely
> 
> Good to see some people can mange to do the right thing, makes you wonder why others find it so difficult


Thank you - I fell in love the minute I saw her (though trust me - she isnt always as sweet & innocent as she looks) 

I volunteer for various rescues so know the effect indiscriminate breeding has - so I sure as hell wasnt going to add to thr problem.

It isnt difficult to get your cat neutered - doesnt cost a lot if you go to the right place.

unfortunately some people see kittens/puppies as an 'easy' way to make money.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

if they really new how much time, money and hard work we put into our litters im sure they wouldnt consider it easy money!...or alot of it! ... i break even, or might have a little extra to play with purely because i get a good discount on my vet fees and i own my own stud! and even then the time i put into the kittens is time taken away from my hubby and kids, sleepless nights, lack of a social life for at least 2 weeks before hand and 6weeks after....... some would say "why do you bother then" .... my response would be "i dont do it for the money"


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## CAstbury (Oct 24, 2010)

CAstbury said:


> It isnt difficult to get your cat neutered - doesnt cost a lot if you go to the right place.
> 
> unfortunately some people see kittens/puppies as an 'easy' way to make money.





Shayden said:


> if they really new how much time, money and hard work we put into our litters im sure they wouldnt consider it easy money!...or alot of it! ... i break even, or might have a little extra to play with purely because i get a good discount on my vet fees and i own my own stud! and even then the time i put into the kittens is time taken away from my hubby and kids, sleepless nights, lack of a social life for at least 2 weeks before hand and 6weeks after....... some would say "why do you bother then" .... my response would be "i dont do it for the money"


Aah yes - but that is because most people on here are sensible and know what they are doing - I was referring to people who 'think' it is easy money - just open the door. let their cat out and hey presto she is pregnant. Those who leave the queen to get on with the birth and upbringing and then just sell the kittens.

I once had a row with a colleague at work because he did that and he couldnt understand why I was annoyed. He did find homes for all of the kittens but dooubt he has any idea now where or how they are 

I certainly wasnt referring to people who breed 'correctly' - so sorry if you thought I was x


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

no offence taken my dear  the thing is.... even thought you might find homes for the kittens... if you go on gumtree right now im sure you will find 100 people trying to sell or give away their cat due to various reasons! im moving house, i dont have enough time for the cat now!, were having a baby (even tho this is a stupid excuse imo unless you already have a child and its alergic) so just because you might find a home for them doesnt mean they will have a FOREVER home and therefore those same kittens will become cats and may end up in a shelter or pts .... which is why i advocate for cats to be nutured even the pedigree ones if they are not on the active and arnt ment for breeding.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

just a side note..... the reasons why alot of people dont go to shelters to get cats though is because they do make it quite difficult to obtain one! i do sometimes feel their criteria is abit excessive. i live in london.... and i went twice to battersea and rspca to get a cat and they wouldnt allow me.... solely on the basis that i didnt have a garden at the time...... my point being.... i could have the biggest garden in the world.... my cats aint going outside moggy or pedigree... i understand they do this out of the interest of the cat... but the reality is... for the same price, or less, or even for free i could have gone and just got a kitten from anywhere just to save myself the bother.... i didnt tho.. i went and got my first pedigree russian blue 


i personally would be going out of my mind with worry if my cat was outside... having to contend with horrible little children, maingy foxes, cars, rat poison, even other diesese ridden felines not to mention anything else that might befall my beautiful little kitties.... no no no!


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Please read re repping.. Many Thanks
http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/162548-repping-members.html


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

What gets me though, (and I am not referring to anyone on this forum) is that these same people who do not want to pay for a cat and also claim they cannot "afford" spaying or vaccinations, are the same ones who, as often as not, drive new cars, spend 200 pounds on booze on a night out, have the latest music system in their house, buy Jimmy Choos shoes etc etc. This I have seen with my own eyes. I think in many cases, the "cannot afford" is very likely 'too bloody stingy" to spend money on just a cat.


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