# Is there a rule...



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Is there a rule against asking a judge his/her opinion on your cat *after* the judging has finished?

I'm specifically asking about cats shown in PedPets for whatever reason, asking the judges opinion on your cat if it didn't have the specific restriction that stopped them being shown in the pedigree sections.

Does that make sense?


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## rcmadd (Feb 6, 2011)

you can ask a judge once they have finished.. if you can find them that is..

the thing is.. in the pet section a pedigree cat has to have a withhold fault in order to be in there.. and the only way to find this out first is by showing in the pedigree section first.. they see what judges think.. they would then let you know what the faults are.. then you can show in the pet section...


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

They are meant to stay around for you to be able to do this.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I hadn't heard a cat has to have a withholding fault to be in pedigree pet and I can't find any reference to it on the GCCF's website. Any cat or kitten over 6 months must be neutered and the only bar so far as I know is that once shown as a pedigree pet a cat cannot be shown in it's breed class. Some clearly have withholding faults, others have maybe gone as far as they can in pedigree showing - the further up the ladder one goes the fewer cats make the grade.

It is being judged in a completely different way to as a pedigree, and the judges opinion will be about the cat from that viewpoint, not a pedigree one. The judge may well be someone who knows nothing about pedigree cats or your particular breed. However they will tell you if the cat was happy, well groomed, in good condition and this is what showing pets is all about.


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## Chiantina (Oct 16, 2012)

messyhearts said:


> They are meant to stay around for you to be able to do this.


But they often don't!!

The show reports published on the GCCF site will give the judges critique and some judges will happily take email queries. Some do hang around at the show but often they have trains to catch or long journeys to get on with so they go!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Do you mean, McWillow, whether they'd be good enough for the ped section if they didn't have the fault? If so, then yes, you can ask anyone you like to look at your cat once judging is done/ I'd advise you to have a look at the schedule and find the name of the judge judging the open adult class in your breed. They will definitely be a full judge, so will give a hopefully well rounded opinion. Approach them once judging is done, and there you go.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

rcmadd said:


> you can ask a judge once they have finished.. if you can find them that is..
> 
> the thing is.. in the pet section a pedigree cat has to have a withhold fault in order to be in there.. and the only way to find this out first is by showing in the pedigree section first.. they see what judges think.. they would then let you know what the faults are.. then you can show in the pet section...


I already know what the withholding faults are, so I know why I can't show them in the pedigree section.

I would be interested to know the opinions of the judge, if they ignored the witholding fault.

I just wondered if it was frowned upon to ask a judge (that is judging my breed in the pedigree section, not necessarily a judge who has already looked at my cat in their classes) to have a look and ask for his/her opinion. :blush:


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Do you mean, McWillow, whether they'd be good enough for the ped section if they didn't have the fault? If so, then yes, you can ask anyone you like to look at your cat once judging is done/ I'd advise you to have a look at the schedule and find the name of the judge judging the open adult class in your breed. They will definitely be a full judge, so will give a hopefully well rounded opinion. Approach them once judging is done, and there you go.


I was posting as you were posting Carly!

Yes, that was exactly what I meant - thank you


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## Drevil (Jan 19, 2013)

Hi I'm new to the forum and was thinking about showing my kitten but I wasn't aware that if I was to show him in the Pedigree Pet section he couldn't later be shown in a breed class. Having visited a show I felt that the Pedigree Pet section was a more relaxed place to show a kitten at their first show. Is it a GCCF rule that they then cannot be shown in a Breed Class?


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## rcmadd (Feb 6, 2011)

@ drevil.. i would sugest you show your kitten in a small breed show (the breed of cat you plan to show).. then see what the judges have to say.. 

you tend to find that withhold faults or not meeting the standard of points starts to affect cats after they have gained their 3 premier certificates..(after 9mth old).. like our selkirk rex short curly boy.. he got his 3 pc's then we were told he wasnt selkirk enough.. ie.. too much british in him.. this is a s.o.p fault so we decided to put him in as pedigree pet..


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

rcmadd said:


> @ drevil.. i would sugest you show your kitten in a small breed show (the breed of cat you plan to show).. then see what the judges have to say..
> 
> you tend to find that withhold faults or not meeting the standard of points starts to affect cats after they have gained their 3 premier certificates..(after 9mth old).. like our selkirk rex short curly boy.. he got his 3 pc's then we were told he wasnt selkirk enough.. ie.. too much british in him.. this is a s.o.p fault so we decided to put him in as pedigree pet..


I always wondered why you showed him in pedpets - now I know


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## Drevil (Jan 19, 2013)

It's more to do with when I showed a cat previously he got upset at a show being handled (badly) when the visitors and everyone was milling about as the kitten classes are so far down the pecking order, and he was too upset then to be shown as an adult. I thought it wouldn't matter which section they were shown in while still a kitten as he will be neutered at 6 months anyway and they aren't competing for titles in either section. I don't think I want to put another kitten through that possible distress. It seems odd that you can move from the breed section to pedigree pet but not vice versa but then nothing about the GCCF surprises me.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

There's actually nothing to stop you moving back in the rules, but it is very much frowned upon. Why? Because then breeders could show their kits in the ped section, then just change them over when they were ready to title. Folks could show their cats in that section to let them settle, then move them across for CC and PC certs. That's not fair at all on the genuine HHP exhibitors. The section shouldn't be used as a section to evaluate your cat before moving it across. It should be used, just like the ped section, to gain titles and enter into competition. MCWillow, your situation is very different as you're wanting an opinion on your cat's type not to move them over, but just because you want to know. That's very different than showing them for the sole purpose of gaining the opinion. In those cases, I'd say that you should either take the risk and show your cat in the appropriate class, or put them on exhibition, get the judges' opinion, then decide which section to put them in.


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## rcmadd (Feb 6, 2011)

@ mcwillow.. we have not shown him in ped pet yet.. his first comming up

we did show our selkirk rex variant as the variants are not gccf so cannot be shown as a breed.. 

@ drevil.. best NOT show a kitten in pet section then switch to pedigree...

i think the reasoning behind it is... cats shown in HHP section HAVE to be nutered at 6mth of age.. pedigrees dont and HHP cats dont have to be gccf registered, pedigrees DO

and what carly87 says....


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## Drevil (Jan 19, 2013)

Thanks for your help - I will have to wait until he's adult and then decide which section.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

You don't have to wait at all. Nothing to stop you putting him on exhibition as I say, or showing him in ped section then basing where you go from there on judges' opinions. Why not ask your breeder if they think he's good enough too?


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

rcmadd said:


> *@ mcwillow.. we have not shown him in ped pet yet.. his first comming up
> 
> we did show our selkirk rex variant as the variants are not gccf so cannot be shown as a breed.. *
> 
> ...


Ahh sorry - thats where I got confused!


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## Drevil (Jan 19, 2013)

It's because based on my previous experience I won't show a kitten in the pedigree section again as they are judged so late in the day - I accept this kitten could be different but my feelings remain unchanged.


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

rcmadd said:


> @ mcwillow.. we have not shown him in ped pet yet.. his first comming up
> 
> we did show our selkirk rex variant as the variants are not gccf so cannot be shown as a breed..
> 
> ...


OK- playing Devils Advocate here - what about breeders who have a cat that cannot be shown as a pedigree, say a Selkirk variant, but that IS allowed and important in the breeding program? Should they be allowed to show it as a ped pet until 6 months old, knowing that after that it will not be shown as it will be used for breeding so, obviously, will not be neutered, or should they not show it at all or just put it on exhibition? They are not switching from ped pets to pedigree section, and, indeed, the cat may later be shown as a ped pet once it has finished breeding and has been neutered, but some may say even that isn't fair?

Opinions?


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

I can't see why that would be unfair, as they will only _ever_ be shown in ped pets.

Ped pets and household pets usually have separate sections so its not like a ped is competing against a moggy. And they are judged completely differently to the pedigree section.


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## rcmadd (Feb 6, 2011)

carol.. we stopped showing our tortie ragdoll girl so that we can have a litter from her..

then we had her "done" and started showing her again.. we did start her in ped pet and carried on in ped pet

although it is a little unfair having to stop showing so they can be bred form...


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

Was just seeing what people thought, having heard the odd mutter about breeders "using" the section as opposed to "serious" exhibitors showing there. Personally, I have no strong feelings either way


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'd argue that breeders are just as serious, and in fact, that the HHP is a much harsher judgement on their lines. It would be a very good indicator that someone was breeding cats with fabulous temperaments and personalities, something which is just as important as good type in my book. I've put my girl in there because I love the temperament of my cats, and want to see if judges do too. That's why I chose that section instead of ped neuters. I'd love to see a similar type of section for entire cats to be given awards on temperament only. I think it would make a wonderful asset to many breeding programmes.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

carolmanycats said:


> OK- playing Devils Advocate here - what about breeders who have a cat that cannot be shown as a pedigree, say a Selkirk variant, but that IS allowed and important in the breeding program? Should they be allowed to show it as a ped pet until 6 months old, knowing that after that it will not be shown as it will be used for breeding so, obviously, will not be neutered, or should they not show it at all or just put it on exhibition? They are not switching from ped pets to pedigree section, and, indeed, the cat may later be shown as a ped pet once it has finished breeding and has been neutered, but some may say even that isn't fair?
> 
> Opinions?


why not? it brings entries and revenue to the show - they are only showing kittens until 6 months and it harms noone - the kittens can't be shown as pedigrees so they are showing in the 'correct' section.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

carolmanycats said:


> Was just seeing what people thought, having heard the odd mutter about breeders "using" the section as opposed to "serious" exhibitors showing there. Personally, I have no strong feelings either way


tbh some of the 'serious exhibitors' in the HHP section need to take a look at their behaviour as the behaviour of some is appalling and terribly overcompetitive and could destroy the 'fun factor' of the pet section.


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## rcmadd (Feb 6, 2011)

Soupie said:


> tbh some of the 'serious exhibitors' in the HHP section need to take a look at their behaviour as the behaviour of some is appalling and terribly overcompetitive and could destroy the 'fun factor' of the pet section.


:thumbup:.. i agree.. there is always a minority that do take things too seriously..


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Soupie said:


> tbh some of the 'serious exhibitors' in the HHP section need to take a look at their behaviour as the behaviour of some is appalling and terribly overcompetitive and could destroy the 'fun factor' of the pet section.


It's a competition (a charm competition unlike the pedigree classes which are beauty competitions) so there will always be some very competitive people taking it very seriously. What exactly are these people doing?


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

OS I won't go into specifics here but the non ped section has become very competitive with the arrival of ped pets which is very popular. Some breed shows rely now on this section to break even. Unfortunately along with popularity there is more competition and I have found some exhibitors don't like this increased competition and the behaviour seen as a result is unnecessary and distasteful.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

I don't know if I want to enter now 

I don't know if a smaller show would be better or worse!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Course you want to enter! look, in every section of a cat show you're going to have some who take it way too seriously. That's just how things are, and the majority of us just ignore and let them get on with it!


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Exactly Carly - enter the show and enjoy it 

I referring to the comment about 'serious exhibitors' ..


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Soupie said:


> OS I won't go into specifics here but the non ped section has become very competitive with the arrival of ped pets which is very popular. Some breed shows rely now on this section to break even. Unfortunately along with popularity there is more competition and I have found some exhibitors don't like this increased competition and the behaviour seen as a result is unnecessary and distasteful.


I've no choice but to show in this section now and I have to say it's pretty scary:001_huh:


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## Chiantina (Oct 16, 2012)

Don't worry about the numpties, enter! There's the odd one or two in the Burmese section that take everything entirely too seriously - the rest of us just assume they don't have much of a life!! The vast majority of people are lovely but you'll always get one!! But isn't that true of any area of life!!


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm intrigued now. What is a withhold fault? 

One of the boys that I took to the show yesterday (FiFe) was judged as having too wideset ears but to my knowledge this wouldn't stop his owner taking him to another show - I appreciate that there probably would be little point in taking him to more but is this the sort of thing that would be classed as a withhold fault at another show?


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## rcmadd (Feb 6, 2011)

at gccf shows.. all pedigree cats are judged to a STANDARD OF POINTS if your cat has something wrong.. ie.. ears too big or too much white on the face.. then thats a withhold fault..

thats when you have to place them in shows as a ped pet.. they are then judged on temperment condition and grooming..

however.. with the discussions going on at the moment..things in there are going to be changing...maybe....


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

My two kittens can only be shown as ped pets.
Cedar has a tail kink so he doesn't reach the standard of points, and Blossom is a colourpoint, RagaMuffins can't be shown if they are colourpoints - it even says on her papers 'show restrictions'


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