# Puppy growling if toddler touchers her while eating...Normal or warning sign



## LolaPup2013 (Jul 5, 2013)

Hi everyone. Just looking for some advice as im confused. 
My puppy is a black Lab and is almost 12 weeks. When we feed her and my.almost 3 year old son likes to help shes absolutely fine with being given her food and i encourage my son SOMETIMES to take her bowl away make her resit and then give it back just so shes used to being interupted and things. Shes also fine with him/us touching her back/softly clapping her but if he touches her ears/paws she growls quite loudly - doesnt stop eating or actually snap etc. Im in no way saying he should do this as he needs to give her peace i just dont want to ignore some signs and have a full grown lab and maybe another child who just pets her and is bit etc. Im sure this is just her way of saying eh back off im eating this as shes not aggressive with the actual food at all.

Any advice/tips? 

Thanks xx


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

My stomach just sunk, please don't allow your child to take her food away, you are taking a huge risk here and he may be bitten through no fault whatsoever of your labs. 

Let her eat in peace, she is being polite at the moment and telling you she is not happy, take no heed and it may escalate into a bite


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

LolaPup2013 said:


> Hi everyone. Just looking for some advice as im confused.
> My puppy is a black Lab and is almost 12 weeks. When we feed her and my.almost 3 year old son likes to help shes absolutely fine with being given her food and *i encourage my son SOMETIMES to take her bowl away make her resit and then give it back just so shes used to being interupted and things*. Shes also fine with him/us touching her back/softly clapping her but if he touches her ears/paws she growls quite loudly - doesnt stop eating or actually snap etc. Im in no way saying he should do this as he needs to give her peace i just dont want to ignore some signs and have a full grown lab and maybe another child who just pets her and is bit etc. Im sure this is just her way of saying eh back off im eating this as shes not aggressive with the actual food at all.
> 
> Any advice/tips?
> ...


Please, _please_ don't get your son (or you, or anyone else) doing this, it doesn't teach them about interruption at all, but will instead teach her that her high value item is being taken away & she will not understand why. She is already telling you & your son how uncomfortable she is (by growling) with being pulled around whilst eating.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Can only agree with what the others have said, please stop taking her food away, just let her eat in peace. All stealing a dogs food while it's eating does is teach it that it has every need to guard it against people because there's a good chance it will be taken away. She does not need to "get used to" being interrupted while eating. Think how you'd react if someone kept taking your meals away. You'd get pretty annoyed and probably snap at them 

If you want to teach her to be comfortable with people around her food then drop extra tasty treats next to her while she's eating rather than take her food away. You also need to teach your son that the dog needs to be left to eat her meals in peace.


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## LolaPup2013 (Jul 5, 2013)

Ahhh im SO glad i posted this now. I actually got told that advice by the first vet we took Lola too, i cant remember why it came up. I thought it was quite harsh. So what is the best way to feed her? We usually do it in kitchen. So sit, stay, then eat in peace but while we go about our business not touching her at all? Is this best way?

Thank you all so much. I will defo be keeping my son at bay now and just leave her in peace. I didnt want to have her eating in peace then a visitor or someone thinking their doing no harm and clapping her and getting bit  

Xx


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Your teaching your puppy to guard her food, she escalated to growling because she now thing anytime he's near her food he's going to take it.

It's not fair.. Teaching a dog a solid leave to drop food etc is fantastic, but never understand why people want to take food away from a dog just because, this teaches your dog " I have to guard it because they might take it", the idea is making your dog comfortable round you eating food, they won't feel the need to guard if they know you won't take it.

Your now going to have to teach her, that having your child round her food is nothing for her to feel uncomfortable about, and she has no reason to resource guard because you have no interest in taking it..

Let her eat in peace


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

If someone kept taking my dinner plate away while I was eating I would be well cheesed off.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LolaPup2013 said:


> Ahhh im SO glad i posted this now. I actually got told that advice by the first vet we took Lola too, i cant remember why it came up. I thought it was quite harsh. So what is the best way to feed her? We usually do it in kitchen. So sit, stay, then eat in peace but while we go about our business not touching her at all? Is this best way?
> 
> Thank you all so much. I will defo be keeping my son at bay now and just leave her in peace. I didnt want to have her eating in peace then a visitor or someone thinking their doing no harm and clapping her and getting bit
> 
> Xx


I just have mine wait to be released to start eating (more because I can't be doing with a dog trying to wolf down its food before I've even managed to put the bowl down than anything) then leave him to eat in peace. Occasionally I toss a couple of chunks of chicken or garlic sausage or something in his direction while he eats just so people near him while eating means something good is coming. On the odd occasion I step over him while he's eating he just wags his tail and carries on, perhaps with an expectant look to see whether I've brought him anything extra.

If visitors are round they should be told to leave her alone while she's eating too. It should be common sense really to not disturb a dog while it's eating but so many people are told to take the dogs food away to "show them who's boss" that it's sadly not and people will actually even try it with other peoples dogs :huh:

ETA: I step over him coz he's in the way, not to try and prove anything. Usually when he's eating something big and someone rings the door bell or something.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Cian is fed raw and fed in this crate for his own comfort, so that we can stick to his feeding times no matter who are what is in the house, and also because the cats (Issy) can not be trusted not to try and steal his food...

We have no issue at all with him and such high value food as he knows it's his, he will leave if asked, but we rarely do that only if he tried to bring it out of his crate when he want to p.. Again we don't take it, it's left in his crate until he comes back


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## LolaPup2013 (Jul 5, 2013)

Thanks so much guys. Now im talking about it - its all so obvious. Im glad i asked now. For the next few days now and then she will get peace but il get my son to drop some tasty treats on floor beside her/treat her through day so she has a good relationship with him. Apart from that - peace and quiet while we do what we must around her, cleaning, washing etc.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

LolaPup2013 said:


> Ahhh im SO glad i posted this now. I actually got told that advice by the first vet we took Lola too, i cant remember why it came up. I thought it was quite harsh. So what is the best way to feed her? We usually do it in kitchen. So sit, stay, then eat in peace but while we go about our business not touching her at all? Is this best way?
> 
> Thank you all so much. I will defo be keeping my son at bay now and just leave her in peace. I didnt want to have her eating in peace then a visitor or someone thinking their doing no harm and clapping her and getting bit
> 
> Xx


Your vet's intentions were good....but his advice about HOW to prevent a dog from food guarding were totally incorrect.

The GOAL, eventually, is indeed to have a bomb-proof dog who doesn't blink if someone interrupts her meal, takes her bowl, walkes past, gives her a pat whilst she eats, etc, etc..

But to achieve this goal, it involves a process consisting if lots of steps. The general idea is that your dog will gradually learn that people approaching her bowl means getting even more and even yummier food.

If she was mine, for a week or so I would just let her eat her meals undisturbed. Make sure your son is otherwise occupied or just sitting down and watching her eat. But definitely doesn't interrupt her in any way.

As to "where"...just pick a quiet, out of the way, corner of the kitchen or dining room for her. Somewhere your son can't accidentally run into her.

For Step 2, I would give her a tiny portion of her meal. Once she has completely finished eating that, let your son add another small portion to her bowl. Step back, wait for her to finish...and then add another portion. And another portion. Until her meal ration is finished. Once it is all gone, for the grand finale, let him put something super yummy in her bowl. A piece of ham, some meat, or chicken...something out of the ordinary.

Eventually, in a month or two, when it is well ingrained in her mind that anyone approaching her bowl means MORE food is coming, you can lift her bowl while eating...but ONLY to add something fabulous to her meal. After which you give her her bowl back. I don't mean on every meal, just occasionally.

Personally, I would NEVER allow a child to disturb a dog when eating. Please supervise closely even once she is completely happy with him adding food to her meal. Kids are kids, they do erratic things, so please drum into your son that she is never to be touched or fussed whilst she eats.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

With my dogs, I like to occasionally touch them when they're eating, drop some cheese/meat into their bowls to get them used to me being around their food. I think it's the most responsible thing to in a family household. Otherwise an accident could happen. 

Hand feeding is also good for preventing guarding I've heard.


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## LolaPup2013 (Jul 5, 2013)

Great advice thank you guys. Yeah i believe the vets and our intention was right it just wasnt explained in enough depth. I defo want to make her as bomb proof as possible as i dont want to encourage us to always disturb her i just want to be able to have the ability if i needed to too remove her bowl or check something on her, i know realise the right way to do this is to encourage her and make her realise we arent coming to pester her or take things away from here but to give her goodies and be kind to her.

I will from now on leave her for a week on monday with eating in total peace, i will do an activity with my son or entertain him. Then i will half her meal give her the first half then allow my son or us if he isnt here to put the second half in her bowl then once shes finished ill allow him to put an extra tasty treat in her bowl. I will do this for 2 of her 3 feeds a day as/when we have time. I was also of thinking of just randomly getting him to shout her through the day and then treat her something small but tasty so she associates him with good things as hes so young and noisy i sometimes swear i see her roll her eyes at him thinking deary me arent u in bed yet? lol 

Thanks so much for the advice. Im so glad ive been told the right info now at only 11.5 weeks instead of when shes 1/2yrs old.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Hi Lolapup

I just wanted to add here that I too had been told to remove Finn's food every now and then to make sure he didn't behave this way if some one came near him and we have been doing that up until I read your post.....not very often but every now and then and only the person who gave him his meal and made him wait for it in the first place. Luckily it hasn't initiated any guarding behaviour in Finn and having read all these replies I can see the logic and we too will stop doing it.

However.....there is a difference I think between allowing them peace during their mealtimes and trying to make sure your children are safe as much as possible around them when they have something in their mouths. I was very badly bitten by a neighbours dog when I was about 6, it was a Labrador and we had been in their garden playing with it, there were four kids and we all went off to swing down the garden and the neighbour gave the dog a bone.....I went back to the dog to stroke it again and he bit my wrist and ragged me round the garden.

I have a nasty scar but luckily no fear of dogs....sadly the dog was put to sleep...I know why he did it of course so when we got our last dog and I knew he'd be around children we worked quite intensely on removing things from his mouth whilst he was chewing and playing with them (not his meals though) and yes at 14 weeks when we started this he growled a few times so we sternly told him no and repeated the training until we could take anything out of his mouth at any time without a protest from him. I know that was never a guarantee that he would be safe with children but it the best we could do and in almost 13 years he ever worried us once with little ones.

Just thought I'd share that as I understand what you were trying to achieve.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Finnboy said:


> Hi Lolapup
> 
> I just wanted to add here that I too had been told to remove Finn's food every now and then to make sure he didn't behave this way if some one came near him and we have been doing that up until I read your post.....not very often but every now and then and only the person who gave him his meal and made him wait for it in the first place. Luckily it hasn't initiated any guarding behaviour in Finn and having read all these replies I can see the logic and we too will stop doing it.
> 
> ...


A growl is the safest warning any dog can ever give. A growl signals that the dog is unhappy, unsure, uncomfortable.

The danger in stopping a dog from growling is that the dog may then feel it has no choice other than giving a more urgent warning - it could be an air snap but it could be a bite.

LOLAPUP - rather than taking things out of the dog's mouth, why not work on teaching a solid 'let go' or 'leave'?


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

But would that not only train the pup to drop on command? 

A small child may well just reach for the mouth so is it not possible to train the pup to accept that hands in his mouth removing things is nothing to be feared and the item maybe removed and replaced by a tastier treat and lots of praise if the pup didn't growl immediately?

We only had to stop growling a few times and granted that was when he was approached from behind and probably startled but there is every chance a child could do that at some point no matter how much you try and watch them?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

But by keep removing things from the dogs mouth and telling it off for growling you actually increase the risk of the dog biting, not decrease it. If a dog has never felt the need to guard its food and taught that its warnings won't be heeded it's highly unlikely to go straight to a bite but would first give a warning. A dog who has been taught that warnings will not only be ignored but actually punished on the other hand...well that's the dog likely to bite as it feels there is no other option available.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Rather than forcing and getting into conflict train a solid leave? 

A dog getting to the growling stage is them escalating their warning to you when you have ignored every visible sign they are uncomfortable and unhappy with the situation, you tell them off for a growl you skip a huge part of their warning sequence 

All my dogs have been brought up round children, for them having children round their food meant more yummy stuff not that things would be taken from them, or if they were asked to leave then it meant they were getting something nicer!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Finnboy said:


> But would that not only train the pup to drop on command?
> 
> A small child may well just reach for the mouth so is it not possible to train the pup to accept that hands in his mouth removing things is nothing to be feared and the item maybe removed and replaced by a tastier treat and lots of praise if the pup didn't growl immediately?
> 
> We only had to stop growling a few times and granted that was when he was approached from behind and probably startled but there is every chance a child could do that at some point no matter how much you try and watch them?


I would wonder why a small child would be left unsupervised long enough with a dog to get it's hand in dogs mouth?


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Very sorry to hijack your post Lolapup but I just wanted to ask a very quick growl related question....if I chase off and scold Finn for eating turf, ripping plants etc he growls and barks at me then I in turn tell him off for growling and barking at me....I assume he's just narked at being chased off the plant rather than scared or warning me but should I be handling that differently too. I am now officially "growl confused"! Lol!


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I would wonder why a small child would be left unsupervised long enough with a dog to get it's hand in dogs mouth?


I agree they shouldn't but the reality is that it happens....it did to me all those years ago.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> Very sorry to hijack your post Lolapup but I just wanted to ask a very quick growl related question....if I chase off and scold Finn for eating turf, ripping plants etc he growls and barks at me then I in turn tell him off for growling and barking at me....I assume he's just narked at being chased off the plant rather than scared or warning me but should I be handling that differently too. I am now officially "growl confused"! Lol!


My yorkie makes the most vicious sounding growl type noises when she is playing. She also does it when she is out and wants to go for a run. I've had someone say that she was being nasty when she was just excited. I know her well enough to recognise the difference between a play growl and a warning one. Is his reaction the same as when you play tug etc? If not he could be annoyed with you.


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## LolaPup2013 (Jul 5, 2013)

I like you Finnboy are slightly confused as im a newbie in so many ways :lol:

So i think my plan will be meals in peace for next week or so, then half a meal a day or 2 depending, dont get me wrong she doesnt growl everytime and is brilliant and hasnt growled any other time except playfully, and then let my son or us put the other half in her bowl then a tasty treat at the end, not everytime but so she learns us coming near her means a positive thing is happening. IF he growls at my son i will focus on ignoring the growl in the sense i dont encourage it or tell her off instead i remove my son from what hes doing thats making her uncomfortable and i appreciate her warning. To be honest ive always feared a growling dog whereas i should be appreciating its a warning and means no harm just telling me in anyway she can "i dont like this".

Apart from that now and again she will have peace and quiet for meals except a tasty thing at the end for a treat. She is getting good at leave, we have been working on holding a treat and telling her leave and then "ok get it" and shes doing great - not perfect but certainly not snapping or rushing to get it which is good. 

I however after reading everything yesterday wondered if i this is the same with her toys? Does us or kids taking a toy off her and saying leave (not all the time just when they want to throw the ball for her or throw her teddy etc) encourage any problems? or is this ok.... she doesnt bother at all and excitidly runs after the thrown toy, if shes lying having a good chew though i encourage my son to give her peace and quiet.

Thanks for the help though guys


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Finnboy said:


> Very sorry to hijack your post Lolapup but I just wanted to ask a very quick growl related question....if I chase off and scold Finn for eating turf, ripping plants etc he growls and barks at me then I in turn tell him off for growling and barking at me....I assume he's just narked at being chased off the plant rather than scared or warning me but should I be handling that differently too. I am now officially "growl confused"! Lol!


Instead of chasing him off and scolding him for doing fun dog things that you don't like why not offer him an appropriate alternative? How old is Finn?


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2013)

Safe family dogs are dogs who have good impulse control, who have bite inhibition, and who TRUST their humans. You don't gain trust through force, no matter how you go about it.

As to getting dogs "used to" annoying things... 
There is a subtle but significant difference between desensitization and sensitization. DEsensitization creates that affable, tolerant, dog who sees annoyances as anomalies. Sensitization creates a "straw that broke the camel's back" type scenario.

Sensitization is where repeated exposure to something seemingly minor bubbles up in to major annoyance. Think co-worker in a meeting innocently clicking his pen. Click-click. Click-click. Click-click. Quiet room except for the random click-clicks. Some people in the room don't even notice it. Some people find it annoying, might even give the click-clicker a dirty look. 
But take the high strung person having a bad day and you just might get to see that person suddenly freak out over a click and yell at the click-clicker to knock it off before he throws the pen out the window. I'm sure folks are familiar with sensitization. 

Sensitization is what turns something slightly annoying in to a major big deal.
You don't get a dog used to having their ears pulled by pulling the ears. You just make the dog more irritated by ear pulling - sometimes to the point that the dog will snap at the hand reaching anywhere near the head.

Likewise, if you try to get a dog used to having his bone messed with by messing with his bone, it could very likely create sensitization. A dog who puts up with it, puts up with it, puts up with it, until one day he's just had enough of his food being messed with and snaps. You know, those "out of the blue" bites?

DEsensitization however, is when you pair a milder version of an unpleasant stimulus with a something the dog really likes. For example, if I wanted to desensitize a dog to getting his nails clipped, I would touch the clippers to the paw then treat. Repeat until the dog is anticipating the treat at being touched. Now I can put the clippers on a nail. Repeat the same process. Then up the ante to slight pressure as if I was going to clip but not all the way. Etc., etc.

Or with resource guarding for example, walk up to the food bowl (annoying) and drop a higher value tidbit in to the bowl and walk away (pleasant). The key is for the pleasant to be more pleasant than the annoying is annoying. With a bone, just leave the dog alone! I don't want someone hovering over me if I'm eating a bowl of Ben and Jerry's, why would a dog? If you *must* take something away like if it's dangerous for the dog to have, you teach a drop cue first with lower value goodies. But even without the drop cue, if you haven't been bugging the dog by taking things away all the time, he's much less likely to react the one time you do have to step in and take it away.

So it's also important to make sure that those annoyances are rare. It's kind of like the difference between preparing for a famine by starving yourself (so you're used to starving) or preparing for a famine by packing on the pounds (so when you do starve you have resources on hand to deal with it). 
In terms of safe family dogs, instead of packing on the pounds, you build up tons and tons of pleasant, positive experiences, so that when the unexpected unpleasant one pops up, the dog has enough pleasant experiences built up to view it as an anomaly, not something to defend against.

It's important to note though. Even thoroughly desensitized dogs are not robots. 
Dogs, just like humans, have off days. I'm normally a mellow person, but say I'm having a bad morning, I'm running behind, maybe I'm nursing a cold, not feeling well, distracted, worried about something, and my darling husband accidentally sets a heavy box down on my foot. Normally I'd be cool, but in this case I might snap at him. 
Dogs have that sort of moment too.

This is where impulse control and bite inhibition come in. 
A dog who has impulse control will be able to check himself and not overreact to the situation. A dog with bite inhibition will do far less damage even if reacting.

(Above is a shameless c/p from another post I made LOL - I'm in a hurry!)


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Crikey I'm well known for over thinking things but I have to be honest I haven't really thought this deeply about this yet, I guess we were very lucky with our last dog and he clearly was very laid back/trusting/never really tested? Who knows?

I can see the sense in everything that is being said and Finn is not our last dog, he has his own personality so how can I tell if he is the type of dog to build up and snap at this young stage?

There are two separate situations in which I mention his growling, he happily growls when tugging or playing and ragging things about and I have to clarify I never force him to give anything up or use physical force of any kind. The growling I mean is very definitely a protest back at me for stopping him doing things that I really don't want him to do....for example he's pulling chunks of the lawn up or digging holes in it and I walk towards him and sternly say "off" in my telling off voice (lol!) I never need to touch him because he knows he isn't allowed to do it so he springs off it and goes down on his front paws and growls and barks at me....not threatening or vicious but not the same as his play noises.....pretty much like he's arguing with me then as soon as my back is turned he's back to the naughty behaviour.

Sarah1983 Finn is only 14 weeks old, teething and being entirely puppy like in his behaviour I know but it is impossible for me to watch him every second, we do distract him with his toys and then save him alone if he's playing with things he is allowed to do so peacefully.....

Is Finn growling at me and saying "aw Mam I'm narked because you are spoiling my naughty fun" or his he growling and barking to say "this is a warning and I'm going to do that whether you like it or not"?

Should I reprimand the barking when it comes straight after being told to stop doing something naughty? He does it when I order him off furniture as well but to be fair he gets off at my command and I never have to touch him.

Lolapup - I still think it is ok to encourage them to give up things in their mouths without fuss and sometimes you might want to do that when they have been lying peacefully with it for a while? 

I know I have a far cleverer, more challenging dog than my pure golden retriever ever was so I'd really love to know which growls/barks need checking and which don't? Finn doesn't make much noise (apart from 5.30 every morning as Lolapup knows! Lol!) but when he does it is in response to specific situations so I'd be keen to react appropriately?

Thanks x


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I think the only thing reprimanding him for barking at you is likely to do is escalate it. Many pups get frustrated when someone comes along and ruins their fun. Instead of just saying "I don't want you to do that" and leaving it at that I'd try a "I don't want you doing that, here do this instead" sort of thing. It's all very well telling a dog what we don't want them doing but unless we tell them what we DO want the poor dog is simply left guessing. And usually there are a lot more wrong choices than right ones. So instead of digging holes in the garden what do you want him to do? Something specific that you can teach him to do, not something vague  If he really likes to dig then I'd consider getting him a sandpit or a specific place in the garden where he can dig and redirecting him to that. 

Without seeing everything in context it's pretty much impossible to say which barks/growls are fine and which need something working on unfortunately. It's about knowing your dog and being able to read all the signs rather than just going by a bark or a growl.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

OUESI's post is really helpful.

Rather than taking things away from your dog, teach a solid 'drop' or 'leave' or 'let go' and THEN reward when your dog obeys the command.

Personally I would never let a child try and take anything away from a dog. Not even sure I would allow a child to feed a dog until the dog was a bit older and was well used to people adding things to his bowl, being nearby while he eats, and so on.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

If anybody tried to take my dinner away whilst I was eating - I would stab them with my fork! 

On a serious note: I agree with what almost everyone else has said. I don't think it's a good idea to remove a dog's food as a training method. I think it is more likely to create a problem than solve it. 

Training the dog to know that any interaction with a human is a good thing will serve the dog best in the long run. Then, if the unthinkable happens and the dog was ever disturbed whilst eating (obviously not planned) then the dog would hopefully just shrug it's shoulders and think - yeah, whatever 

My dog eats his food in peace, but there are odd occasions when we need to pass him/touch him and he is perfectly relaxed about it.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Finnboy said:


> Crikey I'm well known for over thinking things but I have to be honest I haven't really thought this deeply about this yet, I guess we were very lucky with our last dog and he clearly was very laid back/trusting/never really tested? Who knows?
> 
> I can see the sense in everything that is being said and Finn is not our last dog, he has his own personality so how can I tell if he is the type of dog to build up and snap at this young stage?
> 
> ...


Responses above hope that helps?


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## LolaPup2013 (Jul 5, 2013)

I defo think im going to use the frame of mind that EVERYTHING i ask her to do/have to expose her to will come with a treat/something really tasty. I will not intervene with her meal times at all anymore except occasionally dropping an extra tasty treat bit into her bowl/beside her so shes used to us around her - which she has been absolutely fine with so i have no worries about that but will reinforce it and not all the time as we have no reason to always be around her its mostly me in the kitchen anyways cooking or cleaning and not interupting her per say just walking by etc.

In regards to all other aspects i like Finnboy am a worrier/overthinker and i have no way of not letting the puppy and my son play and monitored play with an adult always present. He likes to take her toys and throw them etc or play a mild version of tug of war (basically hes too little but has an old dressing gown rope which is safe which they play with together very well) shes never growled or shown any concerns at anytime for us in way shape or form but i dont want to have a straw that broke the daylights back situation :yikes:

However she does get quiet time where if shes lying chewing a toy herself peacefully we encourage my son to leave her be and she has nice treat in her crate in total peace. 

So i guess if we use the excellent advice here and reinforce ALL good behaviours and the few "annoying" things we have to do with extra tasty treats we should be good. 

I really love the advice that basically she needs to be taught that all encounters with humans are fun/tasty/good things to happen not food taking/locked up/pulled at and tugged.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Finnboy said:


> The growling I mean is very definitely a protest back at me for stopping him doing things that I really don't want him to do....for example he's pulling chunks of the lawn up or digging holes in it and I walk towards him and sternly say "off" in my telling off voice (lol!) I never need to touch him because he knows he isn't allowed to do it so *he springs off it and goes down on his front paws and growls and barks at me..*..not threatening or vicious but not the same as his play noises.....pretty much like he's arguing with me then as soon as my back is turned he's back to the naughty behaviour.
> 
> Is Finn growling at me and saying "aw Mam I'm narked because you are spoiling my naughty fun" or his he growling and barking to say "this is a warning and I'm going to do that whether you like it or not"?
> 
> ...


Finnboy, I would interpret your pup's growl above as an invitation to play. A dog's body language...in his case a play bow and a cheery bark "C'mon, lets play!"...speaks volumes.

There is a world of difference between THAT and a dog which growls because he is annoyed and his next move is to bite unless you back off and back down. Their body language then is usually very still, the ears go back, the dog will often stare you straight in the eyes, may display his entire sets of sparkling teeth....and you better make a decision fast whether to accept his dare or back off sharpish.

Only one of my dogs has ever exhibited a "Go on, make me - I dare you!" growl. But he was a very difficult, complex character from the outset. And in hindsight, due my ignorance and inexperience at the time, this COULD have been prevented. I made excuses for many, MANY smaller behavioural issues beforehand. The long and short of it: I didn't know how to set appropriate boundaries. Hell knows I tried, but not very effectively.

It is almost impossible to give concrete advice since all dogs are so very different in their personality. But the one advice I would give, because it really is universal - DO set clear boundaries. Mean what you say and act on it. Instantly.

Taking the turf ripping example above - say, you don't want your turf to be molested AND turn saying "no!" into an amusing game, to boot. So you sternly say "NO!" - as you did - but puppy thinks " Groovy, a playgrowl, mum wants to play, too! Yay, lets!".

As "no" means zilch to him. Ditto clapping your hands, getting crosser...and crosser...as this behaviour just doesn't compute in dog language.

You doing a sharp u- turn and walking off sharply would be one way to communicate that this game is of no interest to you. You can accompany this dramatic exit by saying "No, finished". Won't mean much to him as yet either...but in due course it will. He'll learn, over time, that "No, finished" means end of the game. Mum gone. Dull.

Unless....you don't really MEAN it. And stay to interact. Which means play time for the puppy. Whether you shout or get cross - it's still attention. All fabulous. They don't mind a bit of shouting, they are quite partial to rough, rowdy, noisy games amongst themselves.

As to dealing with a potential serious, ears back, teeth bared "back off, I mean it" growl: everybody has a different opinion on how to best address this. Personally, I don't permit my dogs to dictate to me, what I am allowed or not allowed to do. Not because I am so power hungry and dictatorial, but because I rather not mince it with a fully grown adult thinking he is at liberty to set boundaries for me or for for any other human via his teeth.

To me a serious growl is a serious transgression. Which transforms fun, warm, loving mum temporarily into Belzebub. And I will make it clear that what happened now musn't happen again. Same as the pup's dam would do if their youngster get's too big for their paws.

The good news is that if you set appropriate boundaries now you likely will never have to deal with a serious growl. With the right cognitive tools we can easily outsmart them and usually prevent it from happening in the first place.

So remember - boundaries! And mean and act on what you say. There and then.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

All makes perfect sense Hopeattheendofthetunnel thank you so when I see he is ripping the garden up I should tell him "no" sternly but either give him something else to do or just turn away and ignore his noisy response?

I really don't think he is doing anything more than talking to me or challenging me to play as you say, he does show his teeth when he's growling but I have never seen him do a threatening "snarl"... I know what you mean by that.

I also love Meezey's explanation about my human hurtling towards him and him showing he is not scared....that also makes sense and I never mean to frighten him just to set the boundaries.

He isn't digging my garden up for attention as he prefers to do it when I'm not looking! Lol! 

Thank you for starting this thread Lolapup I think we've both learnt loads! X


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

:lol: This:


delca1 said:


> If someone kept taking my dinner plate away whilst I ate, I'd be well cheesed off.


Hear, hear! :thumbup: 

I've been known to simply poke my fork tines into the back of the waitron's hand, 
when s/he's in a hurry to reseat the table, & tries to clear my plate away before i've even finished... 
& i'm human, i can TALK to the server, i just get aggravated & make my *"point"*, instead.

 invariably, i get a jump, an apology, & no further interruptions - so my message is received, at least - 
& the behavior works. :laugh: My tablemates sometimes tell me it's rude, but heavens, isn't it JUST 
as rude if not more so, to try & hustle us thru our meals so that they can sweep us out the door, 
& seat another party?! I paid for my food, i tip generously for good service, & i want to eat in peace.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

LolaPup2013 said:


> I was also of thinking of just randomly getting him to [call] her [once or twice] through the day, & then treat her -
> something small but tasty, so she associates him with good things, as *he's so young & noisy, i sometimes swear
> i see her roll her eyes at him, thinking, "deary me, aren't U in bed, yet?..." * :lol:


i can definitely empathize with her - 
i have no nieces, only nephews, & at one point, my middle nevvie's favorite hobby was tormenting his younger bro, 
while my eldest nephew's fave thing was either ear-splitting rap, or making his dog bark while playing.

Candy's a sweet dog, but she's also a 45# pitbull with a loud bark - at least indoors, when the rap music began, 
we could tell him to wear earphones!  The dog didn't have a volume control.

Anyway, yes, have him call the dog, by all means! But do it properly - "Sacred Name, COME!"... 
not "here", "yoo hoo", or worst of all, *"Name!"...* which doesn't tell the dog What To Do, 
& gives the impression that they've done summat wrong, putting the dog right off coming in, happily. :nonod:

Practice - 
"Fido, COME!" - nice & cheery. Start out just a few feet away, add distance as the dog gets better at it.
It should be a good fortnight before U want to try calling the dog from another floor [up or down stairs]
or entirely out of sight - for the first 2-weeks, stick to line of sight, but longer distance, to get it really solid.

When U start OUT OF SIGHT recalls, *give the dog time - * don't get impatient & call again.
WAIT... if the dog doesn't show up in a reasonable time, let it go.
If the dog DOES come - U hear running paws, or claws on tile. or panting approaching, 
PRAISE while they're on the way to U: short, quick words, 'good... yes!", etc.

For U:
Don't forget to pay off, vary the rewards [tidbit, tug game, fetch, toy to chase & kill...]
& also TOUCH THE COLLAR just before delivering the food, from underneath - that's for U, not the child:
the kids can simply drop the food to the floor, or hold out a flat palm for the dog to slurp it off.

But for YOU, i'd touch that collar from underneath the dog's chin with one hand, while the other hand is
bringing the food to the dog's nose - that way, if the dog ever gets loose, hands coming toward their collar 
won't send them flying away from the person trying to safely secure the dog. 

The sequence is telling: the approaching hand comes first, THEN the treat. U can hold the collar lightly, 
but don't make the dog wait - hold it WHILE offering the food, not to restrain, only to slip a finger under.
.
.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> As to dealing with a potential serious, ears back, teeth bared "back off, I mean it" growl: everybody has a different opinion on how to best address this. Personally, I don't permit my dogs to dictate to me, what I am allowed or not allowed to do. Not because I am so power hungry and dictatorial, but because I rather not mince it with a fully grown adult thinking he is at liberty to set boundaries for me or for for any other human via his teeth.
> 
> To me a serious growl is a serious transgression. Which transforms fun, warm, loving mum temporarily into Belzebub. And I will make it clear that what happened now musn't happen again. Same as the pup's dam would do if their youngster get's too big for their paws.


I would be one of those with a different opinion.

I'm of the mind that dogs have a right to their opinion. To this end we have an established system of communication, we have mutual trust and respect, and I absolutely take their opinions in to account. Funnily enough, they don't feel the need to voice those opinions with growls.

I'm also of the mind that when you're being seriously threatened by a dog, there's not necessarily any vocalization. Certainly if I'm out to truly hurt someone, I'm not going to warn them to watch out for me first. A growl is an attempt to NOT have to use teeth.

As for what the dam would do, she would also use body language and subtle communications before reprimanding her pups. She's also a dog. Something humans are not.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Finnboy said:


> All makes perfect sense Hopeattheendofthetunnel thank you so when I see he is ripping the garden up I should tell him "no" sternly but either give him something else to do or just turn away and ignore his noisy response?
> 
> He isn't digging my garden up for attention as he prefers to do it when I'm not looking! Lol!


Urgh! 

I am the worst person to ask digging related issues as I am incredibly permissive when it comes to digging or...erm..."pruning". I'm happy for my dogs to largely landscape the garden to their hearts content. Much to the consternation of my husband..

I'v only had one passionate, die-hard digger - and more to preserve marital harmony than anything else - I just distracted him with something MORE interesting. Like playing "find it" in the garden. Are you familiar with this game? Hones their nose skills AND is good fun for dog and owner.

Have puppy in the kitchen with you. Or call him into the kitchen from the garden. Offer him a piece of something delectable. Mine were crazy about cheese, so cheese it usually was ( organic mild cheddar! Good for their bones !)

Make sure pup sees you cutting more cheese. Cut in tiny pieces, leave pup in kitchen, and hide cheese all over the garden. Initially, make it easy and obvious where you hide the goodies and then progressively trickier. Call pup out and Encourage him to "go find!" and, when he has, to "go find more".

You will be amazed how quickly he will learn what "go find" means. All I can say, hand on my heart, it ususally took my pups TWO repetitions to know what those words meant....compared to 3.5 million repetitions of the word "gently" or "slowly" 

It is lovely to see them working all eagerly and focused, nose to the ground, hunting for their treat. They are beyond chuffed with themselves when they find it, especially when you give them a joyful round of applause!

So...at his age - I would distract from digging. If I got barked at, I would march off sharply and leave him sitting there. If he happily continues to dig after I left, go back out, say "Rover, no!" or " "Ah-ah!" and the nano-second he stops to pause...call him and praise. And distract some more.

Plus, you never know - he might find an oil well or a gold mine under that turf!

All joking aside, I do know that puppies - as glorious and wonderful as they are - can be incredibly hard work and exasperating at times. And that some things are only really funny in hindsight. Like the time one of mine carefully "replanted" a majorly expensive, huge standard Fuschia to exchange it with an old knuckle bone. Looked like some insane art project. Snapped the poor plant right in half. Or another dog blissfully unearthing every single tulip bulp in the whole garden.

Distraction is an amazing weapon in keeping semi-same during puppyhood. A G & T on occasion in the evening greatly helps, too


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I would be one of those with a different opinion.
> 
> I'm of the mind that dogs have a right to their opinion. To this end we have an established system of communication, we have mutual trust and respect, and I absolutely take their opinions in to account. Funnily enough, they don't feel the need to voice those opinions with growls.
> 
> ...


That's cool. Everyone raises and lives with their dogs as they see fit and which suits them best.

And I fully concur, some dogs do not exhibit any verbal warnings. They go straight for the bite. But for that to ocur the dog either had an incredibly bad or undisciplined upbringing....or has an inherently iffy temperament.

What I wouldn't concur with, regarding the "mutual trust and respect" - if your dog, your own dog, growls at you with teeth bared....s/he doesn't respect you. It may trust you, it may love you, but it doesn't respect you. So if one's dog ever voices their opinion in THAT way, something has gone badly awry. As it had in my case with my first dog.

Personally, my dogs do have a right to their opinion...but the don't have the right to overrule MY opinion. For their sake, they aren't allowed to blow me off if our opinions differ. I know, and it is my job to know, what a set of tyres over their body will do to them if they ignore my call to "wait". I know what the consequences will be if they snap at a child or chase the neighbours cat, oblivious to my intervention because they have a different opinion.

Their "opinion" isn't worth much in court or anywhere else. My dogs are much loved family members, but they are NOT my equals. Not being equal doesn't mean "less than"...it means "being responsible for".


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2013)

Yep, just different view points.
My dogs and I are partners, very much equals in many ways. Their opinions hold more weight than mine in some areas, mine hold more weight in others - a true partnership.

Growling is just one of many intricate ways dogs communicate, no need to label it so tightly. I've seen dogs who growl quite ferociously at their owners who I think have a perfectly good relationship, and I've seen dogs who never make a peep who have a horrible relationship. It's all relative. IOW, I'm not going to get all up in arms about a growl because it's a growl. I'm going to address everything surrounding the growl as necessary.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> ...I fully concur, some dogs do not exhibit any verbal warnings. They go straight for the bite.
> 
> But for that to occur, *the dog either had an incredibly bad or undisciplined upbringing -
> or has an inherently iffy temperament.*


actually, not so much.

Dogs who are punished for growling will stop growling - & there goes the warning.

Dogs whose warnings are utterly ignored, learn to escalate. This pair of men who "train" dogs 
to "become less aggressive", IMO, are making those dogs more dangerous - as they use 
heavy gauntlets & other body-armor to ignore the dog's bites, forcing them to escalate repeatedly, 
& their warnings never work.

Observe - 
guide to hand protection
Hand Protection For Dog Training (k9-1.com) - YouTube

scared dog with known RG issues: Darren
Aggressive/Fearful Dog Rehab - Darren part 1 (k9-1) - YouTube

at 4:08 they put a bowl of food in the far corner, & toss a single kibble into it to get him over there - 
then they LEAVE THE DOG EAT. Definite improvement! :thumbsup: He doesn't finish until 5:14.

They no longer have the more-flagrant multiple videos that showed dogs nearly nose to nose 
with their bite-suit wearing, Kevlar clad, gauntleted 'trainer' repeatedly shoving their hands 
into the dog's bowl, while the dog snarled, froze, hunkered, gobbled, snapped, bit, 
& finally gave up growling & just bit - repeatedly - until the dog stopped biting.

More FLOODING - this time repeatedly trying to touch Darren, over & over & over &... 
Flooding in Dog Training - Darren part 2 (k9-1) - YouTube

But how many ppl live in bite-suits & welder's gloves?! Not i.

Also, many ASIAN breeds - CHow-chows, Akita, Jindo, Shiba, Tosa, etc - DON'T OFTEN GrOWL.
Their warning is a quick, silent freeze - often with a hard stare, but the body is rigid - then they bite.
That's why so many groomers hate to brush or bathe a Rough Chow - they are in a hurry, they're pulling 
on the dog's skin & coat trying to rip thru mats, & the dog gets ouchy, freezes, the groomer misses it, 
& then _*wham!*_ - they are bitten, & the groomer says, 
THAT DOG NEVER WARNED ME!... Yes, the dog did; U blew right by it. :nonod:
.
.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Saying that a dog who growls doesn't 'respect' the owner is a bit like saying that if a person snaps verbally at a friend, they don't 'respect' that friend. Of course that's not true - we ALL snap at one another on occasion. We might be in pain, or tired, or upset, or nervous.

Ditto with dogs.


My dog gives a playful growl when we play a particular game together. I know it doesn't mean a thing. Then there are other types of growls that he gives when for instance, a dog at the park makes him edgy. And a third type of growl if he hears or sees something while on lead, that he's not sure of. 

Surely the key thing is to ascertain *why* the dog is growling, rather than to simply ban growls?

I've said it before and I will keep saying it: a growl is the SAFEST warning any dog can ever give.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

As far as I'm concerned a growl is communication, nothing more. I see a growl as a "look, knock it off will you" or "I really don't like that" sort of thing, not the big, scary "I'm going to bite" precursor many people see it as. If my dog growls at me then I want to know why. Did I hurt him? Or do we have an issue that I need to work on with him such as resource guarding or a particular body part being handled? But I'm not going to get upset about it or punish him for communicating that way. I want him to know that I will listen to him when he tells me he's not happy. If it gets to a growl then it's very likely I've missed other, more subtle warnings that my dog is uncomfortable anyway.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Every owner has to decide what they deem is in the overall best interest of their dog. Not just short-term, but long term.

I don't consider it in the best interest of my dog if he feels free to growl at me or anyone else every time he can't have it his/her way and doesn't like something.

I know owners who can't remove a tick from their dog, or administer eye drops because the dog won't permit it. I knew one owner who couldn't go to her own bed because the dog was guarding something in it. I know an owner who can't let their dog of their leash because the dog, once free, won't allow the owner to put the leash back on. The list is endless.

Each of them have dogs who appropriately warns them. With growling.

Not all of the above were overly permissive, inexperienced owners. Some had lengthy experience and never encountered these issues before. Until they had a dog with a strong personality who cheerfully challenged them over everything. And won. 

They are not generally overly happy unions and relationships. What they do usually have in common is that the dog is a substitute for something. A child. Or a partner. Or a lack of human friends. So they treat it like a child, or a partner or a human friend. But a dog is not a human in furry clothing. To interact with it as such is foolish, disrespectful to the dog and IMO definitely NOT in the best interest of the dog.

I respect my friends as humans, and my dogs as dogs. What anyone else does is up to them. If people are contented that their dog growls at them and others - aside from a play growl - all power to them. It's a free world. I prefer a dog who I can take anywhere, who enjoys a maximum amount of freedom with the minimum of restrictions and who has a rich, interesting life.

But yes, there are rules and boundaries. And they are set by me. Not by my dog. I am comfortable with that.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LolaPup2013 said:


> Ahhh im SO glad i posted this now. I actually got told that advice by the first vet we took Lola too, i cant remember why it came up. I thought it was quite harsh. So what is the best way to feed her? We usually do it in kitchen. So sit, stay, then eat in peace but while we go about our business not touching her at all? Is this best way?
> 
> Thank you all so much. I will defo be keeping my son at bay now and just leave her in peace. I didnt want to have her eating in peace then a visitor or someone thinking their doing no harm and clapping her and getting bit
> 
> Xx


Your vet wants to drag himself into the 21st century I think. Taking a dog's food away belongs to an outdated and discredited form of training called the pack leader theory. The idea is that as pack leader, you need to show the dog that the food is yours not his. It is a load of codswallop and as someone has already said, you will end up with a dog that guards his food which is unpleasant for all concerned.

Once he knows that he can eat in peace, as you or anyone else is allowed to, he won't care who comes past or brushes against him while he is eating, because it won't be a threat.

Another tip: never listen to a vet when it comes to training or anything else except medical issues. They do not know what they are talking about.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Every owner has to decide what they deem is in the overall best interest of their dog. Not just short-term, but long term.
> 
> I don't consider it in the best interest of my dog if he feels free to growl at me or anyone else every time he can't have it his/her way and doesn't like something.
> 
> ...


I find this post fascinating. Clearly you see a growl as a challenge, something the dog does to manipulate and control you. And those who allow such see their dogs as a substitute for something, are foolish and are disrespecting their dog, and most importantly, will have an unsafe dog, a dog they can NOT take anywhere and do anything with. Very interesting.

It's really all about the label we put on things isn't it? Like other posters just said, a growl is nothing more than communication. It's not a challenge, it's not the dog trying to set boundaries for the human. And I find it interesting that people are so insecure about their own spot in the relationship that they would see a dog growling at them as a challenge, or be so worried about a dog having a valid opinion.

But let's assume for a second it is. Let's say I have a dog who growls at me when I got to remove a tick. Is telling him not to growl going to solve anything? Is it going to make him more comfortable about the whole thing? Is it going to teach him to trust me? If your dog growls when you go to do something the dog dislikes, the issue is not that you "allow" the dog to growl. (Which in itself is an odd thing to say if you think about it. Like you can somehow "allow" emotions.) No, the issue is not the growl, the issue is the entire relationship. 
If the growl is indeed a challenge, why is the relationship set up as one of combativeness anyway? If you're not in competition with your dog, there is nothing TO challenge. It's a relationship based on cooperation, there is no "I say, you do", there are cues that have meaning and sufficient motivation to comply. No compliance means more training, not 'dog must be challenging me'.

FWIW, a relationship where a dog is allowed to have a say does not equal a permissive owner who's dog is a substitute for something, and frankly it gets old to hear that.
We live in the middle of nowhere where coyotes sing on winter nights, and rabies is reported every summer. I absolutely depend on our dogs for safety and especially to keep our children safe as they wander about the property. I trust my dog's opinions about unknown visitors, and if they alert to a noise, I look out the windows. I respect their opinions, and I trust them.

Meanwhile, they also come with us anywhere and everywhere, one has multiple obedience and rally titles, our dane girl did agility with her 6 year old handler, my two males (one recently passed) are also therapy dogs, most of their work centered around children and teens.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Pretty much like Ouesi says really. I don't see a growl as a challenge from the dog, I see it as communication. In some situations yes, it may signify that there's something we need to work on but then it's not the growl that's the problem is it? And telling the dog off for growling isn't going to change the way it feels in that situation even if it does suppress the growl.

You make it sound as though those of us who don't have a problem with a dog who growls have dogs who go around growling at people willy nilly, that simply isn't true. I can take my dog pretty much anywhere and he's not likely to growl at me or anybody else. Nor is he a substitute for anything. He is a dog, he is treated like a dog and he has rules and boundaries.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

My dog growled at another dog that was jumping all over him. (At a training class, no less.) His owner did nothing to stop him and I had already defended Jack from his attentions and moved away. Whilst I had quickly turned to answer somebody, the woman came over and allowed her dog to clonk Jack again and he growled. I took that to be his way of telling the dog to back off - I've had enough. 

I had given Jack is first proper marrow filled bone and he was eating it in peace - so I thought. My 16 yo son appeared out of his bedroom and Jack looked up and growled. I took this to be him telling my son that this was his bone, same as he might a sibling. My son didn't feel threatened, but he just left him be.

On neither occasion did I think Jack was being aggressive. In fact he has never shown any signs of aggression. I think he was communicating in dog language. Those were the only 2 times he has ever growled, apart from the lurcher "come play" growl which is accompanied by play bows, etc.

ETA: I think I should actually use the word GRUMBLE rather than GROWL as per HATEOTT's last post


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I find this post fascinating. Clearly you see a growl as a challenge, something the dog does to manipulate and control you. And those who allow such see their dogs as a substitute for something, are foolish and are disrespecting their dog, and most importantly, will have an unsafe dog, a dog they can NOT take anywhere and do anything with. Very interesting.
> 
> It's really all about the label we put on things isn't it? Like other posters just said, a growl is nothing more than communication. It's not a challenge, it's not the dog trying to set boundaries for the human. And I find it interesting that people are so insecure about their own spot in the relationship that they would see a dog growling at them as a challenge, or be so worried about a dog having a valid opinion.
> 
> .


In turn, I am facinated by your fascination 

I am unclear what your specific issue here is. Are you on some kind of pro- growling campaign or something?

If you enjoy your dogs growling at you and the world and consider it a mutually beneficial communication strategy - let them! It makes no odds to me. I might think it a tad odd....but your dogs, your choice. I, like most owners, prefer that my dogs don't growl at me or others. Which is why I intercept it.

Let's also not forget what the specific topic discussed here is: growling. Not grumbling. There is a distinct difference. Perhaps our interpretation of what growling vs grumbling means differs.

And you really don't know me remotely well enough to make any sweeping statements of how I interpret my dogs behaviour, do you?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I find this post fascinating. Clearly you see a growl as a challenge, something the dog does to manipulate and control you. And those who allow such see their dogs as a substitute for something, are foolish and are disrespecting their dog, and most importantly, will have an unsafe dog, a dog they can NOT take anywhere and do anything with. Very interesting.
> 
> It's really all about the label we put on things isn't it? Like other posters just said, a growl is nothing more than communication. It's not a challenge, it's not the dog trying to set boundaries for the human. And I find it interesting that people are so insecure about their own spot in the relationship that they would see a dog growling at them as a challenge, or be so worried about a dog having a valid opinion.
> 
> ...


You raise a good point there actually; for people who stop their dogs from growling, do they then expect the dog to know the difference when he hears an intruder or a strange noise, and growl at that? I would have thought to a dog it is all the same - I am uncomfortable, therefore I am growling to say so, no matter he is uncomfortable about.

If I try to take something scrummy away from Ferdie, like tin foil if he can get hold of any, he will growl at me. Am I going to challenge that? Certainly not. I am going to get something tasty to swap for the tin foil though, because I don't want him to eat it. Am I letting him get away with growling at me? I don't think so, as long as I win in the end what difference does it make how I got there?


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> In turn, I am facinated by your fascination
> 
> I am unclear what your specific issue here is. Are you on some kind of pro- growling campaign or something?
> 
> ...


Ah yes, just like sweeping statements you make about people who's dogs growl at them and their dogs being a replacement for children or friends. Right....

I'm guessing you overlooked the part where I said that funnily enough, my dogs don't feel the need to make themselves heard with a growl. You also must have missed the part where I said my dogs work with children as therapy dogs, have obedience and rally titles, go anywhere and everywhere. Not exactly compatible with an alleged "pro growling campaign". Though I do like that label, I just may steal it 

I also find it interesting how you read my posts to say I 'enjoy' my dogs growling at me. That you seem to read "I allow growling" to mean that my dogs are constantly growling at me highlights the exact point I'm trying to make. Yes, I absolutely "allow" my dogs to growl (still sounds rather odd to me) but that doesn't mean they do. It is because they have a voice, their needs for being heard are met, they don't feel the need to escalate to the point of a growl.

It goes back to the point I was making about a safe family dog. A safe family dog is not one who never growls, a safe family dog is one who doesn't feel the NEED to growl. 
Look at it this way: Dog A has been told not to growl. Crawling toddler approaches, dog feels nervous, but knowing he's not allowed to growl, dog A stays mute.
Dog B has never been told not to growl, dog B has a history of humans responding to his subtle body language cues. Dog B sees the toddler approaching and visibly shows his discomfort. Dog B's humans see the dog expressing his opinion about the toddler, respond to his visible discomfort, and encourage the dog to move away, or move the toddler, or both. No growl happens. 
Now, neither dog growled, but one was a much safer scenario than the other wasn't it? 
Obviously many other factors come in to play, impulse control, bite inhibition, dog's coping skills like simply getting up and leaving, and rarely, some dogs are simply that tolerant of toddlers and wouldn't be bothered to begin with. But not 'allowing' a growl is decidedly *not* one of the factors that makes a dog safer, it simply removes a potentially bite-saving warning signal. Why would you want to discourage that?


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

So.....because this thread is bringing out some strong opinions which I am reading with interest.....can I ask whether you all have a consensus of opinion on what you would have done in the real life situation that has just happened in my living room?......

Tell me what you would do then I will tell you what I did.....

Its a rainy saturday afternoon and Finn (14 weeks old) was chewing his rib chew in his bed in the kitchen being left in peace by myself and my two girls.

Finn decides to carry his chew into the living room and sit beside my youngest who is on the floor watching a DVD (I assume Finn is merely wanting to be closer to his pack after twenty minutes on his own in the kitchen...his choice mind!)

My youngest (almost 6) leant towards him and said "hello gorgeous" and he responded chew in mouth with a low loud growl at her....she was a bit unnerved and looked to me....she hadn't touched him or his chew nor had she called him to her.....

Now what happened next? I was watching with interest because of this thread and am really intrigued to know how many of you would have handled that situation........??


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> So.....because this thread is bringing out some strong opinions which I am reading with interest.....can I ask whether you all have a consensus of opinion on what you would have done in the real life situation that has just happened in my living room?......
> 
> Tell me what you would do then I will tell you what I did.....
> 
> ...


I would have just reminded the child not to touch the dog while he had his chew. I know she didn't touch him, but the dog thought she might. I have had this scenario with my dog a lot of times, if my son has gone near him while he has a bone. He is just told to leave the dog alone. With a six year old though I might have suggested that she move further away.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

But hang on, she was happily sitting there, he walked in to her, she did not approach him, am I supposed to teach my kids to stop what they are doing and move away whenever the pup is near them with a chew in his mouth? This is their home, he should not have free reign to move people away?


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

In this scenario as an instant reaction I would have said a loud 'a' (phonic) as a reprimand for pup and move pup away.

Hope I don't get shot down for this 

Luckily for me it didn't happen with Indie as a pup...


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Lol! Delca1 you are far less likely to get shot down for suggesting that as I might for what I actually did....we shall see.....

I desperately want what's best for Finn and the family but I am afraid I struggle with the idea of allowing him to control where people are with his growls so I need to find the way that works for us....


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2013)

Not enough info. What kind of body language did Finn give off? Was it loose and contented, or was it tight and stiff with worried eyes? What did Finn do after he growled? Did he get up and move? Did he stay there and continue to eat his chew happily with loose body language?

Generally speaking, I would have stopped the interaction before it even started. When I saw the pup coming to lay down with a resource next to a child in the house, I simply would have called the dog away, and encouraged him to lay down somewhere else. This is one of the many good uses of a crate - high value treats get enjoyed in the crate, and children are taught to never disturb a dog in his crate. Simple prevention.
If I missed the prevention part though and it did get to the growl point, I would still not correct the growl. I would show the pup where to lay if he wants to eat his chew undisturbed, and I would continue to encourage positive, appropriate interactions between pup and child. With the right foundation, these things sort themselves out.

We've certainly had pups do very similar, in that the pup initiates the interaction and then growled when the child reciprocated. I'd say this is actually very common. Pup is still learning the kids, kids are still learning the pup. I see it kind of like a toddler who goes to show another toddler his toy than freaks out when the other toddler touches or takes the toy. It's immaturity and a learning curve. 

It's so hard when you're new to all of this often with a skewed, Disney-fied point of reference where dogs never lay a foot wrong and come out of the womb fully trained. But if you know that it's common for dogs to guard, if you recognize how normal it is for puppies to be conflicted and forget which end is up, you can deal with each blip on the radar rationally and reasonably without flipping out about it. It's a growl. No biggie. Recognize, address, make necessary changes, and move on.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Finnboy said:


> Tell me what you would do then I will tell you what I did.....


Ha!

I'm thinking a verbal reprimand and prompt banishment from the room. No, wait, you all collectively left the room and closed the door behind you. And later you all practiced "lets swap" with more chews and shortbread biscuits?

Am I warm?


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Ha!
> 
> I'm thinking a verbal reprimand and prompt banishment from the room. No, wait, you all collectively left the room and closed the door behind you. And later you all practiced "lets swap" with more chews and shortbread biscuits?
> 
> Am I warm?


Nope not even Luke warm


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Not enough info. What kind of body language did Finn give off? Was it loose and contented, or was it tight and stiff with worried eyes? What did Finn do after he growled? Did he get up and move? Did he stay there and continue to eat his chew happily with loose body language?
> 
> Generally speaking, I would have stopped the interaction before it even started. When I saw the pup coming to lay down with a resource next to a child in the house, I simply would have called the dog away, and encouraged him to lay down somewhere else. This is one of the many good uses of a crate - high value treats get enjoyed in the crate, and children are taught to never disturb a dog in his crate. Simple prevention.
> If I missed the prevention part though and it did get to the growl point, I would still not correct the growl. I would show the pup where to lay if he wants to eat his chew undisturbed, and I would continue to encourage positive, appropriate interactions between pup and child. With the right foundation, these things sort themselves out.
> ...


His body language was relaxed and I didn't get a chance to interact as I would have avoided the whole thing if I could, please don't think I was testing him or watching as an experiment it just occurred to me to see what you all would have done.

I reacted with instinct and did a sharp "ah".... But and this is where I am expecting the conflicting views..... I removed the chew which was released readily and put it away. Finn followed me back in to the kitchen watching me put and lay with his head on the youngest lap and went to keep while she carried on watching her DVD stroking his ears.

Later when he was back in his bed I gave him it back and got my youngest to come in and stroke him (no growl and no behaviour change) then I gave her a piece of cheese and she asked Finn to leave his chew and gave him the cheese telling him he was a good boy..... Then she gave him his chew back and went out of the room.....

Now I know no one single incident is indicative but I responded immediately to the growl in protection of the child and yes, I chastised him verbally with an "ah" and removal of s treat for growling so why can't he be thinking that the growl lost him the chew without it doing him any damage and storing aggression for the future? He got it back and everyone was friends?

I don't consider myself vastly experienced with raising dogs but we did raise a very happy goldie using similar tactics from 16 weeks through 11 years of young children around without incident.....I am happy to accept we were just very lucky with him but we can't have done too much wrong surely? We just need a little re-adjustment?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I would have given the verbal command for unwanted behaviour, which is hard to type cos it's just a sound, removed the chew from the dog.

I've never had the issue, so can't say I speak from experience but it's what I would assume to have done.

I certainly wouldn't tell the child to keep away from the dog (dog approached her from my understanding).


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2013)

I think it's perfectly understandable to see your child threatened and react. And no, I don't think one incident will necessarily affect your dog for life  
I do think in the future though I'd 1) prevent - crate is the best place for high value stuff, and 2) not take the chew away if it happens again. Remove the dog, yes, but SHOW him where to eat his chew - teach him the skills to handle these sorts of interactions so you don't find yourself having to intervene at every turn. This is all bearing in mind that it's a puppy we're talking about, not a mature dog with an established behavior.



Finnboy said:


> Later when he was back in his bed I gave him it back and got my youngest to come in and stroke him (no growl and no behaviour change) then I gave her a piece of cheese and she asked Finn to leave his chew and gave him the cheese telling him he was a good boy..... Then she gave him his chew back and went out of the room.....


I definitely would *not* encourage a child to approach the pup in his bed while he has a treat. That starts veering in to the sensitization (as opposed to *de*sensitization) I was talking about earlier. 
I'm of the mind that dogs need to know that they have "safe spots" where they know they will not be bothered, and their bed is one of those spots. 
Leave it alone, really  You don't get a dog used to a child taking his bone away by repeatedly taking the bone away no matter how you trade or swap or whatever. Let him eat his bone in peace, end of.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

LolaPup2013 said:


> Hi everyone. Just looking for some advice as im confused.
> My puppy is a black Lab and is almost 12 weeks. When we feed her and my.almost 3 year old son likes to help shes absolutely fine with being given her food and i encourage my son SOMETIMES to take her bowl away make her resit and then give it back just so shes used to being interupted and things. Shes also fine with him/us touching her back/softly clapping her but if he touches her ears/paws she growls quite loudly - doesnt stop eating or actually snap etc. Im in no way saying he should do this as he needs to give her peace i just dont want to ignore some signs and have a full grown lab and maybe another child who just pets her and is bit etc. Im sure this is just her way of saying eh back off im eating this as shes not aggressive with the actual food at all.
> 
> Any advice/tips?
> ...


I wouldn't remove a bowl from any dog not even my own while he is eating. As a puppy I would tell him to come as I put his food bowl down and as he started to eat I would stroke him. Provided he is happy for me to be around while he is eating that is good enough for me.

There is no need to remove the pups/dogs bowl. If you are thinking along the lines of, if the dog picks up the child's toy and you don't want a tug of war to get it back, then I would offer the pup something he can have instead.

If the pup feels the food is going to be taken away and he is still hungry he is going to be cross and you could inadvertently be actually training the dog to be food aggressive.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I am certainly no expert but one thing I will mention is that Teddy did a lot more growling (and, indeed had full blown 'temper tantrums!') when he was very young.  xx

We dealt with the most major tantrums by either ignoring his bad behaviour or I would hold him wrapped in a blanket until he calmed down and went to sleep - much the same method my sister used to use with her babies! 

He usually was at his worst when he was very tired - which all puppy owners need to remember - puppies get very tired very quickly and can get 'grouchy' very quickly when they get tired! I made Teddy have enforced naps because he needed them.

Teddy has pretty much outgrown his growling though - but he does growl in play a lot - and it doesn't bother me! When he's naughty these days I say gently but firmly 'no Teddy' and put him in his bed when distraction techniques are not appropriate.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

delca1 said:


> If someone kept taking my dinner plate away while I was eating I would be well cheesed off.


If they took my plate they'd lose an arm - end of! :incazzato::incazzato::incazzato:


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

With ours, they have always been told 'take it' when the food bowl went down. Then when they had learned a 'sit they were put into the sit position until the food was down and then released to eat it. As they got a little older, they were told to 'wait' (though not for more than a minute or so) before 'take it' We've never had any problems with food aggression and can take anything off them if we need to. I think it's important to be able to take food off your dog, because you never know when s/he will pick up something on a walk (or out of the bin!) which is horrible or even downright dangerous (e.g. if they get hold of a cooked chicken bone, for instance - people leave all sorts of nasty [email protected] lying about in parks - I've had to get a used tampax out of Loki's flews before now), You can teach this by swapping a little treat for an ordinary piece of food, or a toy or whatever, just saying 'leave'.

Regarding growling when her feet and ears are touched - many dogs are uncomfortable with having these areas of the body touched - especially feet, I've found. I think it's also a good idea to get your pup used to having her feet held briefly, and her ears, mouth and eyes looked into in a non-threatening way - just touching gently, and having a quick look - that way when the time comes to trim her nails, ot the vet needs to inspect her teeth or ears, you are less likely to have problems.


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## TangoTerrierist (Jul 1, 2012)

Regarding the situation with the chew, I agree that pup needs to be taught where to eat a chew. This needs to be a place where he won't be disturbed.
When we got our current dog, Tango, (as an adult rescue) she was a dreadful food guarder. I am sure she still would be given the chance. She never, ever has her food taken away from her while she is eating. I have been growled at a number or times when she has been eating and if I just stuck my hands in I don't think she would hesitate to bite. She will swap a bone for some extra meat in her bowl, but to be honest I find it much simpler not to feed anything I will later need to take away. It keeps us all safe.
She also used to guard treats and chews when we first got her. So we taught her to eat her chews in her bed. If she tried to lay elsewhere and eat her chew, she would be directed back into her bed with it. She is NEVER disturbed while she is in bed, it is her 'safe spot' (this goes for whether she is sleeping, eating etc). This removes the problem of her plonking herself down next to someone, and then feeling the need to guard her food from them. Again, everyone is kept safe and relaxed.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

If mine went to lie next to a child while he had a chew and then growled I'd move him to somewhere where he woudn't be disturbed. I'm quite used to having a dog lying touching me while chewing a bone or something and have never had a growl for moving or even touching them. But then they've been taught that they have no reason to fear humans taking their food so me moving doesn't worry them. I'd probably step in and move them away from the child just to be on the safe side though.

The only dog I've had a food guarding problem with is my collie, Shadow, who had his food taken away from him to show him that we could and he had to put up with it. Resulted in a dog who would go rigid and snarl if you so much as moved at the other side of the room he was eating in. And who would bite if you got within range. After close to 9 years of managing those issues we started to get on top of them by tossing (literally, I stood in the doorway and tossed treats towards him) treats in his direction while he ate and gradually moving closer. By the time he died less than a year later I could stand by him or walk past him without so much as a grumble.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

If my son was young/little, then I would probably only allow the dog to have chews/treats in his bed. Somewhere that my son would know not to disturb the dog.

Likewise, the dog would be fed his meals in the kitchen and the child "trained" to leave the dog alone.

I would however train the dog so that it was not actually disgruntled by anyone touching him or taking anything off him, just in case. (NOT by taking it's food/chews away whilst it was eating them tho.) I would want it never to be an issue for the dog so it was never phased by such an action - should it ever arise.

The scenario you described, and given that the dog already had it's chew, I would probably have just told the boy to leave the dog be. As you say there were no signs of aggression or stress exhibited by the dog, I would have assumed no threat to the boy and just kept close watch until the chew was gone. But, I would take steps to avoid that situation in the future.


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## Bellaboo1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Sorry I know this is an old thread but just had to comment on how unbelieveable it is that people think its ok to do this whilst a dog is eating. I was taught when a child never to go near a dog while it was eating I thought it was basic knowledge ?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Bellaboo1 said:


> Sorry I know this is an old thread but just had to comment on how unbelieveable it is that people think its ok to do this whilst a dog is eating. I was taught when a child never to go near a dog while it was eating I thought it was basic knowledge ?


So was I. Then you get idiots who present themselves as "dog psychologists" who tell people crap like you need to take his food away so that he knows who is boss and other such rubbish, and what you get is a dog that guards his food. Common sense really, but people who are not dog savvy think that these idiots must know what they are doing or they wouldn't be on the telly.

I always say: put yourself in the dog's place and decide what your reaction would be.


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Some of the rescue tv programmes show dogs being tested for suitability to be re-homed, including letting the dog start eating from its bowl then shoving a fake hand in to see if the dog is 'food aggressive'. If it goes for the hand it is often labelled unsuitable to be adopted. Very sad really


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Bellaboo1 said:


> ...just had to comment on how unbelieveable it is that people think it's OK to do this whilst a dog is eating.
> I was taught when a child never to go near a dog while [s/he] was eating - I thought it was basic knowledge?





newfiesmum said:


> So was I.
> 
> Then you get idiots who present themselves as "dog psychologists", who tell people crap like you need to
> "take his food away, so that he knows who is boss", & other such rubbish, and what you get is a dog
> ...


Yup - it was a certain white-toothed smiling presenter who convinced apparently half the globe's 
dog-owning public, that shoving one's hand in the dog's food as s/he ate was *mandatory* rather than asinine, 
& that dogs who dared to object were out to take over the world, & install a new global Govt -

ridiculous twaddle.  I would not expect any child over 5-YO to be so ignorant as to shove a hand 
into any animal's food while the creature was trying to eat, not even an herbivore - a horse or cow 
is quite capable of tossing their head & knocking the idiot butt-over-brains, & horses can deliver a powerful 
crushing bite, with those flat teeth & massive jaw-muscles.

To interfere with a sharp-toothed carnivore who's in the midst of a meal is simply foolhardy, & moreover, 
it's damnably rude. :thumbdown:
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

delca1 said:


> Some [dog-]rescue tv programmes show dogs being tested for suitability to be re-homed, including let
> the dog start eating from the bowl, then shove a fake hand in, to see if the dog is 'food aggressive'.
> If [s/he] goes for the hand, the dog is often labelled unsuitable to be adopted.
> 
> Very sad, really.


Yes - ESPECIALLY because resource-guarding is among the easiest problem behaviors for APOs to improve, 
& often it can be entirely resolved, IN AN ADOPTER'S HOME with only a few simple rules about feeding, 
& some phone or e-mail support for questions.

Animals | Free Full-Text | Preliminary Investigation of Food Guarding Behavior in Shelter Dogs in the United States

"Preliminary Investigation of Food-Guarding Behavior in Shelter Dogs in the USA"

96 dogs with known RG issues were placed in adoptive homes.
QUOTE,
_"Follow-up was done at 3 days, 3 weeks, & 3 months post adoption to measure 
all guarding behavior in the home.

Six adopters reported at least one incident involving guarding in the first three weeks, of which 
only one was around the food bowl. 
By three months, those adopters reported no guarding behavior except one new occurrence, 
of a dog guarding a rawhide, reported in the third month.

*For dogs identified with RG, the return rate to the shelter was 5%;
it was 9% for adult dogs not identified with guarding behavior. *

Adopters did not comply with at least one aspect of the program, so it is unclear why so little guarding 
was reported. *The key finding is that dogs that guarded their food bowl in the shelter were not 
guarding their food, in their new homes."*_

Note that nearly TWICE as many adult-dogs who DID NOT exhibit RG when tested, were returned 
to the shelter - IOW, double the rate of the "problem" food-aggro dogs.
.
.


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