# Lead reactive dog - muzzle or not!



## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

I have a very lead reactive terrier, she actually likes dogs and used to love a good play, but she will bark her head off if she can't greet any dog. Naturally this led to less greetings and more reactivity.

We had an incident where she 'bit' a strange dog a few weeks ago, totally my fault I should never have allowed them to greet each other in the way they did, it was another terrier, very full on full frontal greeting. No 'physical' harm was done, she grabbed it round the snout and let go after what was probably only a few seconds, there was no ragging or growling, just an instantaneous snap, the other dog didn't appear to be phased by it at the time  but does now bark at us out the window (it is a neighbours dog, we cannot avoid the house) so I have no illusions that no harm was done at all.

I had already booked and am attending sessions with a behaviorist who is helping with techniques for management and desensitization on her re-activeness, however she is not working for a couple of weeks, I know not helpful, but we all need time off. 

We have been advised to work on distance and trigger work, in larger areas, clicking and treating for no reaction/distraction etc or avoidance if we cannot keep a good distance ie: turn round and walk away if on a footpath.

TBH though it is more avoidance , I prefer to walk were I am unlikely to see anyone but occasionally things happen. Eg: the other night on the beach, it was getting dark and a spaniel ran over, before we/I could see it, it was in our face. My first thought was 'oh god what if she bites it', the owner was not in sight at this point, even when he did arrive he seemed unconcerned that his dog was being ferociously barked at but thats another thread  

However I do feel that while complete avoidance might be less stressful for both me and the dog, it can only be making things worse, the less dogs we see = the less we can work on desensitizing her and the more exciting they are likely to seem (general consensus is her reactivity comes from a combo of nerves and excitement) = the more reactive she is likely to be, vicious circles.

I am a keen convert of the idea of having a dog neutral dog as has been mentioned several times in this forum. I just don't see how it can happen if she never sees another dog, I know we need to build our bond as well but in the meantime she still needs some exercise. There are a few people we have walked with in the past and she is fine with their dogs, yes she will play but if they aren't interested she happy to continue with the walk but I don't feel I can ask them to help, if there is the slightest risk of her biting again (not that I really think she would but I cannot trust that instinct at the moment).

So I have been thinking of using a muzzle for my own peace of mind, I can't control every situation, like the one on the beach for example, and I very much wanted to give the bloke a mouthful but didn't feel I could say 'be more careful your dog nearly got bitten by mine' with any real justification. (I guess I could have picked her up but thats not actually a solution either)

However if it is nerves through lack of controlled socialisation in her past, (grew up with farm collies and a gun dog with no structure or training, now about 1 &1/2 yrs old, never had a lead on till 3 months ago, I know we asked too much of her and set this scenario up but we are trying to work through it now) that is making her react is she not going to feel even more unsure?

Hope some of this makes sense, any advice re muzzles or anything else I am getting wrong/right appreciated. 

ETA She does not go off lead due to her terrier urges, we are half heartedly working on recall but TBH the reactivity is more of an urgent issue.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I have a reactive golden retriever. When we meet oncoming dogs I take her to one side and fish out a treat for her to nibble on whilst they're passing, then we carry on. If they seem friendly, I ask the owner if she can greet them and do a controlled greeting like that. Most of the time she's fine, but there are dogs that don't like her.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Well thats one of the things we are working on but her trigger distance is quite a long way  so thats when the turn around and walk away has to come into play in narrow places. once she has started reacting you don't have much chance of asking for a greeting and since the bite I am not sure of trusting her.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

I have a reactive dog (who is getting much better) and the first thing my behaviourist suggested was muzzling him. He has never even attempted to bite another dog but it just gave me some peace of mind (and hopefully it will also deter idiots from letting their dogs run up to you).
My dog is ok at a distance and where I could avoid other dogs by taking him away from them and feeding him he was fine but sadly there are too many idiots who let their "friendly" dogs come running up to say hello
The muzzle made me feel more relaxed as I knew that the worst he could do was growl/bark and so I could concentrate on asking the other owner to call their dog off or trying to get him away.
I used a baskerville ultra muzzle and made sure I did lots of work getting him used to it before even trying it outdoors (though he is still not keen as he hates being restricted round his mouth) and it certainly didn't seem to make him worse/more anxious. In fact, as I was more relaxed he didn't even have my anxiety to pick up on.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Thank you thats exactly the sort of thing I wanted to hear. My main concern was whether it might make her more anxious. Obviously all dogs are different but if I could get her to accept one then I would certainly be more relaxed and able to concentrate on her rather than other dogs.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I muzzled Rupert as he was seriously aggressive. Didn't do a thing to help with his reactivity or to keep other dogs or people away but it did help me be a bit calmer. He was still able to injure other dogs while wearing a muzzle, he just couldn't bite.

Just be very careful that you don't push her too far because you know she's unable to bite. You'd still need to keep her under threshold as much as possible rather than simply throwing her in at the deep end which is something I've seen far too many people do. And it seems to work at first, dog is overwhelmed and non reactive but in the long run it makes the situation worse.

You want a basket type muzzle, the ones that hold the mouth shut are not suitable for exercise as they don't allow the dog to pant properly. They also allow the dog to open its mouth enough to give a nip with the front teeth. And that hurts like hell! Baskerville and Baskerville Ultra seem to be the most popular.

As for introducing a muzzle, I'd go with this method
Teaching A Dog To Wear A Muzzle (Muzzle Training) - YouTube


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Does your terrier like playing/ragging with toys? Could you encourage her to either carry or play tug with a toy whilst passing another dog?

If you do decide to muzzle her while the behaviour modification around other dogs is ongoing, then try to introduce it to her in a positive way, rather than just sticking it on her one day when you go out.

This video might be helpful.

Introducing a dog to a muzzle - YouTube


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Wiz201 said:


> I have a reactive golden retriever. When we meet oncoming dogs I take her to one side and fish out a treat for her to nibble on whilst they're passing, then we carry on. If they seem friendly, I ask the owner if she can greet them and do a controlled greeting like that. Most of the time she's fine, but there are dogs that don't like her.


I'm glad to find out I'm not alone with a reactive golden retriever. She's much better then she used to be, but despite being old she still will start barking and has the occasional lunge especially if we are on home ground. In new or less families areas she's not so bolshie and will behave well, but every now and again some dogs will suddenly have a go at her with no obvious trigger. She must be giving off some vibes that set them off which I can't see. Usually if the other dog is relaxed then she is too, young dogs really upset her if they are lively and keep jumping about, so I ask they are kept away making the excuse that she is old and grumpy. I do feel that her breeding has something to do with her unsociable attitude as over the years I met several people that had bought dogs from the same kennels who had the same or similar problems. There is no way I would buy another dog from that kennel or any that have bred from their dogs. I now study pedigrees very carefully.

Sorry to hijack the thread

As to a muzzle. Personally I would use one if I was in your situation. Your dog will pick up your fear over approaching dogs and it must make her worse. A relaxed you makes a relaxed dog. Go for it.


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Oh my circumstances are so similar to yours! Bertie is also a rescue terrier and if he sees another dog he gets so excited. If he can have a quick sniff at the other dog and move on he is fine but if the dog is on the other side of the road or he is not allowed to approach he goes mental.

I know a lot of people advise watch me but for us it doesnt work. The second he sees another dog he is over the threshold and flat out pulling. Its like "dog dog dog let me get there this is sooo exciting". There is no time for distraction. Its difficult because if I allow him to approach the other dog he is much better but what I want him to be able to do is just walk past without having contact.

Our behaviourist says that Bertie is not aggressive which is reassuring. He has successfully been off lead with two different unfamiliar dogs in a controlled environment with the trainer and played really well with them. I am nervous around other dogs through, especially loose ones, because Bertie is a young male terrier after all and there is no doubt he would stand up for himself if it came to it.

Another issue for us is that Bertie was forced into a muzzle by a vet just after we agreed to adopt him. I dont blame the vet, Bertie was trying to bite him and there wasnt much option but I have a feeling this is going to make it harder for us to muzzle him if we ever need to.

Our behaviourist has said that what Bertie really needs is to be desensitized to other dogs but that this should be done slowly. A doggy friend to walk with regularly would be good for him but most people I know think Bertie is a mad devil dog with his barking and avoid us like the plague! Another local trainer runs socialisation walks but I am still a bit unsure about this. In the meantime like you I tend to avoid places where I see other dogs but I know long term this really isnt helping.

I know a lot of people dont like muzzling their dogs for all the wrong reasons and I admire you for considering this. If it gives you a bit of confidence and your dog is fine with it then it cant do any harm. If nothing else it might make the muppets who let their dogs charge up to you think twice.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

GingerRogers said:


> Well thats one of the things we are working on but her trigger distance is quite a long way  so thats when the turn around and walk away has to come into play in narrow places. once she has started reacting you don't have much chance of asking for a greeting and since the bite I am not sure of trusting her.


So just try the fishing the treat out and holding it in front of her nose? I wasn't suggesting that you do the greeting bit, its the just the point that we've got to now with my goldie


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

My Lab is very, very reactive on lead. When he sees another dog he goes BESERK. Honestly, I'm not exaggerating - people cross the road to get away from us.

I found that total avoidance did not help, it simply meant that when we inevitably did see a dog in the distance, he went more beserk than ever.

I have found that the only two things which help are:

1 - using a headcollar and now a figure of eight lead/headcollar

2 - training a solid 'watch me' for when you encounter other dogs



Now, if you are walking your dog on lead, and another dog comes racing over, it is the fault of THAT dog's owner if their dog gets snapped up or even nipped. Of course try and place yourself between the two dogs but I know it's hard sometimes and it can all happen very swiftly...!


The reward for the 'watch me' can be whatever your dog values most. So for Dex, it is a high value treat. But equally it can be a game of 'tug', a toy, a ball, affection, whatever you think will work.


If you can train a really solid 'watch me' or 'leave', and then practise it A LOT and gradually build up to using it when other dogs are around, then it really can help, honestly


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Janey D said:


> Oh my circumstances are so similar to yours! Bertie is also a rescue terrier and if he sees another dog he gets so excited. If he can have a quick sniff at the other dog and move on he is fine but if the dog is on the other side of the road or he is not allowed to approach he goes mental.
> 
> *I know a lot of people advise watch me but for us it doesnt work. The second he sees another dog he is over the threshold and flat out pulling. Its like "dog dog dog let me get there this is sooo exciting"*. There is no time for distraction. Its difficult because if I allow him to approach the other dog he is much better but what I want him to be able to do is just walk past without having contact.
> 
> ...


The 'watch me' will only work if you put a lot of work into it WITHOUT other dogs being anywhere around first 

I never, ever thought it would work but it does - and honestly, my dog is like a lunatic on the lead when he sees another dog. The dog can be waaaaay off on the horizon and he's already tense and getting ready to lunge. He goes over threshold very swiftly.

I have found the 'watch me' a huge help but it took a lot of groundwork. I would encourage anyone with a reactive dog to really try it - remember that the 'reward' MUST be something very high value.....


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> but it did help me be a bit calmer. He was still able to injure other dogs while wearing a muzzle, he just couldn't bite.
> 
> Just be very careful that you don't push her too far because you know she's unable to bite.
> 
> ...


I think thats all I am after, to be calmer, I am sick of bursting into tears every walk as *my *adrenaline has just gone sky high but not at the risk of making her more reactive. And yes I would hope I wouldn't push her too far, but as you know my other posts, you were very wise to point that out , thanks.



Moobli said:


> Does your terrier like playing/ragging with toys? Could you encourage her to either carry or play tug with a toy whilst passing another dog? *Not really, we are working on that but at the moment, no its not enough of an incentive.*
> 
> If you do decide to muzzle her while the behaviour modification around other dogs is ongoing, then try to introduce it to her in a positive way, rather than just sticking it on her one day when you go out.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for that as well I will study bth videos and any others I can find before I introduce it if I decide to go down this route - can they really associate them with nice things???



Siskin said:


> Sorry to hijack the thread *- not a problem please join in I am always hijacking other peoples *
> 
> As to a muzzle. Personally I would use one if I was in your situation. Your dog will pick up your fear over approaching dogs and it must make her worse. A relaxed you makes a relaxed dog. Go for it.


Thank you for your input.



Janey D said:


> If he can have a quick sniff at the other dog and move on he is fine but if the dog is on the other side of the road or he is not allowed to approach he goes mental. *She used to be like this but now I am too scared frankly to let her even approach a dog
> *
> I know a lot of people advise watch me but for us it doesnt work. *Nope me neither *The second he sees another dog he is over the threshold and flat out pulling. Its like "dog dog dog let me get there this is sooo exciting". There is no time for distraction. Its difficult because if I allow him to approach the other dog he is much better but what I want him to be able to do is just walk past without having contact. Ditto
> 
> I know a lot of people dont like muzzling their dogs for all the wrong reasons and I admire you for considering this. If it gives you a bit of confidence and your dog is fine with it then it cant do any harm. If nothing else it might make the muppets who let their dogs charge up to you think twice. *You'd like to think so wouldn't you but to be honest most of them are put off by the devil dog reputation *


Its a shame about the vet experience, Bertie sounds so much like Ginge, we have posted almost identical issues in the past, glad you are getting some support now. Perhaps we could sign them up to be doggy friends and just lock them in a room till they get over it?  No maybe not we would probably have a double act on our hands.



Wiz201 said:


> So just try the fishing the treat out and holding it in front of her nose? I wasn't suggesting that you do the greeting bit, its the just the point that we've got to now with my goldie


In and ideal world yes and if we can keep our distance and spot the hazards before they arrive this is helping, in all other circumstances, apart from the fact that I would lose my fingers in the snapping frenzy, she is beyond it, and its these situations where I am out of control of events (like the spaniel running out of the dark) that I want the confidence with.

If she had been muzzled, I wouldn't have feared her response and although I would prefer these things don't happen like that you can't help the numpties, I would have been happier for them to interact, as it was I hauled her in and she no doubt felt my panic as well as hers as it hurtled at us.

So actually I would feel more confident twice over, once because she can't bite dogs but secondly in handling her when trying to deal with her reactivity, as I am wary of her nips, thank you everyone for your input, surprisingly positive towards muzzling. Lots to think about and mull over as I lie awake worrying over it tonight .


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> My Lab is very, very reactive on lead. When he sees another dog he goes BESERK. Honestly, I'm not exaggerating - people cross the road to get away from us. *Well that would be us but its normally me dragging the dog across the road first .*
> 
> I found that total avoidance did not help, it simply meant that when we inevitably did see a dog in the distance, he went more beserk than ever. *This is precisely what I am worried about*
> 
> ...


Thank you too for your input

(at least the silly your message is too short error prompted me to thank you too)


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

> I think thats all I am after, to be calmer, I am sick of bursting into tears every walk as my adrenaline has just gone sky high but not at the risk of making her more reactive. And yes I would hope I wouldn't push her too far, but as you know my other posts, you were very wise to point that out , thanks.


Ah I didn't point it out because it's you  I pointed it out because it's so, so easy to push them beyond what they can handle because you know that if they do kick off they can't bite, you take risks you wouldn't if they were unmuzzled. The muzzle doesn't change what you should do, it's just an extra precaution for those times when you can't control the situation 

And yes, dogs can associate muzzles with pleasant things. It's us humans who have the negative view of them. Rupert used to get so excited if I put his muzzle on him. It either meant I was going to feed him lots of yummy treats or he was going for a walk or to class. I've seen people say they won't muzzle their dog because they don't want to spoil their dogs enjoyment of the walk but it certainly never spoiled Ruperts enjoyment. He was able to run and eat grass and roll and hunt for small animals just as well with a muzzle on as he could without.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah I didn't point it out because it's you  I pointed it out because it's so, so easy to push them beyond what they can handle


But it is so valid, I can so easily get swayed by my other half amongst others when I think I am getting it all wrong, so let other people take control. So I meant it, Thank you and please keep reminding me I am the one who must take control


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Not the best pictures but here's Rupert out on the field with his muzzle on. And stuck on a long line as well lol.



























I don't think he was unhappy at all


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

No he doesn't look unhappy at all, and we happen to have received the *very *bright orange long line from weird today as well .


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Yeah, like your idea of sorting our two. I actually think they were twins in some previous doggy life.

The one thing that you and I have in common is that OUR confidence is an issue. One of Berties other joyful problems is that he wasnt keen on visitors when we first got him. Worse still he is particularly funny around teenage boys coming into to the house. We have made massive progressive with this, so much so that I started getting a bit overconfident and when my son had his friend around at the weekend I wasnt watching as closely as usually and Bertie lashed out at him. 

So after a sleepless night worrying about what could have happened (thankfully Bertie didnt make contact) I am back to being anxious about visitors. I know this is a bit off topic but that confidence and trust in your dog is so hard to build and so fragile.

We do still keep working on the watch me btw and thanks Owned by a Yellow Lab because its reassuring to know it can work. I get everyone to do watch me at home if they are going to give Bertie a treat. I am just not having a lot of success out of the house with it yet but I know this is going to take a long time.

Its just finding a way of being able to exercise your dog without it being a total trauma - and making some small progress with their reactivity at the same time.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Janey D said:


> Its just finding a way of being able to exercise your dog without it being a total trauma - and making some small progress with their reactivity at the same time.


Late night walks, pouring rain, gale force winds and things like that were my best friends when I had Rupert. Didn't see many other dog walkers out then and the few we did see tended to be the responsible ones.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Janey D said:


> Yeah, like your idea of sorting our two. I actually think they were twins in some previous doggy life.
> 
> The one thing that you and I have in common is that OUR confidence is an issue. One of Berties other joyful problems is that he wasnt keen on visitors when we first got him. Worse still he is particularly funny around teenage boys coming into to the house. We have made massive progressive with this, so much so that I started getting a bit overconfident and when my son had his friend around at the weekend I wasnt watching as closely as usually and Bertie lashed out at him.
> 
> ...


I really do empathise - it is exhausting having a reactive dog. I have found that with Dex some roads make him more reactive than others - i.e. those with dogs and cats living in them....! So we tend to avoid those streets.

It's fab that you're doing the 'watch me' at home. I found it really helpful to incorporate a 'sit' while doing it, as when your dog is sitting he can't ALSO lunge etc 

Also, remember to gradually increase the amount of time your dog has to watch you before you give the treat  (apologies if you're already doing this and I'm stating the obvious)

The 'watch me' really has to become a reflex - the second you say it your dog has to look at you. Once you have this at home, start practising it on very calm walks and keep using high value treats/rewards.

I never, ever, ever thought it would work with Dex - then one day we were practising it at the entrance to a busy shopping centre and I could almost see it 'click' in his head!


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

GingerRogers said:


> Thanks for that as well I will study bth videos and any others I can find before I introduce it if I decide to go down this route - can they really associate them with nice things???


My dog just has to see me with the muzzle in one hand and the clicker in the other and comes running over to shove his nose in it Getting him to be happy walking with it on took longer and we still have the occasional tantrum where he tries to remove it but generally he is pretty good. 
I never used the muzzle as a substitute for training (I also used the watch command and positive reward etc) and I never used it to deliberately push him over his threshold BUT there will always be times and situations where you can't control what is going on around you...


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I really do empathise - it is exhausting having a reactive dog. I have found that with Dex some roads make him more reactive than others - i.e. those with dogs and cats living in them....! So we tend to avoid those streets.
> 
> It's fab that you're doing the 'watch me' at home. I found it really helpful to incorporate a 'sit' while doing it, as when your dog is sitting he can't ALSO lunge etc
> 
> ...


Thats helpful, thank you and I am new to this so any advice is welcome! To be honest I would be happy to get watch me to work with other things that Bertie is reactive too at the moment, especially horse riders! We have had some improvement with tractors and lorries so just need to keep going I guess.

And as for Ginger and the muzzle, its good to know that other people have trained their dogs to accept the muzzle without any fuss. I should probably buy a muzzle and try and get Bertie used to the idea in case we ever have to go to the vet again.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Janey D said:


> Thats helpful, thank you and I am new to this so any advice is welcome! To be honest I would be happy to get watch me to work with other things *that Bertie is reactive too at the moment, especially horse riders! *We have had some improvement with tractors and lorries so just need to keep going I guess.
> 
> And as for Ginger and the muzzle, its good to know that other people have trained their dogs to accept the muzzle without any fuss. I should probably buy a muzzle and try and get Bertie used to the idea in case we ever have to go to the vet again.


Oh, welcome to my world 

Dex's biggest trigger is horses - the mere sound of a horse trotting down the street is enough to make him kick off. And as we live very near a farm which has a riding school attached, we do tend to encounter horses more than I would like.....

I think Dex reckons the horses are just giant dogs!

If you can include a 'sit' as part of your 'watch me' you may find it easier to get a good result - especially if you can make the 'sit' as automatic as the 'watch'. The 'sit' is especially helpful when you encounter the 'big' triggers; for us that would be horses and cats!

Also, and I know this is REALLY hard: the calmer you can stay, and the more relaxed your voice etc, the easier you will find it. Very hard when the dog is kicking off on the end of the lead, I know


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Dres is lead-reactive, too, so I feel your pain. It really does make walks exhausting and ramps up the anxiety. Im constantly scanning the horizon for any approaching dogs. 
I use avoidance if I can, but like you, I worry that its not actually addressing the problem.

Dresden's 'watch me' is great at home, or without anything around him to ramp him up, but as soon as something really exciting/interesting comes along, like another dog, that goes out the window. I need to work on it harder.

I have made progress with Dresden over the last month or so.
Before, I could be waving a piece of prime steak in front of him but if there was another dog about, he wouldn't even notice it. So I never got a chance to use distraction, or to treat for calm, because neither of them ever came 

But recently, I have actually been able to get his focus back with food in most cases where another dog comes along. He'd still bark and go silly if I didn't have the food, so Im under no illusion that the problem is 'fixed', its just managed and Im stopping him practising it. 
But its something; at least now I CAN get his attention back on me, and lead him past the dog with food, with no barking. Thats a massive leap for me, and something I didn't think we'd ever achieve.

If the dog takes him by surprise, or we round a blind corner and its there, there is still little to no chance of getting his focus back, he'll just go straight to barky, bouncy behaviour. 
But if I see it ahead of time, we can usually pass by without drama as long as I keep stuffing his face with chicken, and I don't bring him too close.
I tend to pull him aside and let the other dog pass, or I cross a road, so we're not onto 'close' meetings yet, but Im hoping we'll get there.

He's never bitten, or snarled, or growled, or lunged, its all just loud displays from him, as if he's just shouting out 'hey, you, keep your distance!'
But being a dobe, people aren't too sympathetic when he goes off like they might be with a smaller breed.

I honestly can't say what made the difference with Dresden or why he went from being totally impossible to get focus back from to being fairly easy, other than him just maturing and gaining confidence, so not _needing_ to rage at every passing dog so much.

But I wanted to give my support, as I know how tiring and stressful having a reactive dog can be. Dres has been this way since about 4-5 months, so Im kinda used to it now. The idea of being able to walk on by another dog without a big, silly display from him is alien to me, so I guess I know no different. 
I would so love to be able to take him out without having to have a pocket full of meat every time just in case we meet another dog, and checking my pockets halfway through the walk wondering if I've got enough left to finish the walk.

I did do something called 'doggy zen' with Dresden. Its basically where you hold a treat in your closed fist, and hold it to your dog. At first they'll probably scrabble at it and try to get it, but when they give up and meet your eyes, click and give the treat.
Click and treat every time they look at you rather than at the fist. 
Dres picked this up within a couple of minutes, and now instantly looks to me whenever I offer him a treat in a closed fist.
The idea is that they come to learn that looking at you brings rewards, not looking elsewhere. Kinda like a variation of 'watch me', I guess.
I don't know if it made any difference to the reactivity, but I still include it in our training sessions.

I could never take a tug out for Dresden because he's tug crazy, and having a tug puts him into a stupid, hyper, jumpy mouthy frame of mind, which I absolutely don't want, so I couldn't really use that. It might have distracted him from the dog, but it would ramp him up so much that the rest of the walk would be horrible.

Good luck with your dog. I just wanted you to know you're definitely not alone, and I share your pain!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> Dres is lead-reactive, too, so I feel your pain. It really does make walks exhausting and ramps up the anxiety. Im constantly scanning the horizon for any approaching dogs.
> I use avoidance if I can, but like you, I worry that its not actually addressing the problem.
> 
> Dresden's 'watch me' is great at home, or without anything around him to ramp him up, but as soon as something really exciting/interesting comes along, like another dog, that goes out the window. I need to work on it harder.
> ...


I also find that the distance is key.

Dresden actually sounds quite a bit calmer than Dex - Dex lunges violently (or at least tries to) when he sees another dog. Like you, if I don't have food/treats then I don't stand a hope in hell of distracting him.

I think that stopping the dogs practising these behaviours is a massive thing though because the more they do them, the more their adrenaline ramps up and the more they enjoy it/rely on the behaviour as a response. So just by stopping the behaviours, that's a big thing


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Dresden actually sounds quite a bit calmer than Dex - Dex lunges violently (or at least tries to) when he sees another dog. Like you, if I don't have food/treats then I don't stand a hope in hell of distracting him.


Yeah, he never shows what I'd see as 'aggressive' behaviour, just defensive if anything. Its more barks as a kind of 'warning' with him, and if I did walk him right past an onlead dog, close, he doesn't lunge or snap or anything, its all bluff. He's too much of a wuss really to actually back up his threats.
Sometimes the hackles are up a tad, but thats his standard reaction to things he's not sure of/a bit worried by.
I do wonder if its partly his guarding side, like he's just saying to them 'keep away', the same as he does at the front door when he hears something odd outside.
But because of what he is, people automatically perceive his barks as aggression, and he has a really loud, deep bark so I think if he were a smaller 'cuter' breed with a smaller bark, no-one would bat an eyelid!

I was worried it would escalate to genuine aggression, though, if I didn't try and do something.
The only time I don't mind him doing this is when the dog barks at him first. Then, I don't really blame him for reacting, though I'd prefer him not to, but I think its a big ask for him to ignore a dog walking past yelling at him at this stage.

I guess at least you can still distract Dex with treats, I suppose that shows that he isn't THAT obsessed with the other dog that he can still find something more interesting to focus on. I always thought that was a good thing when Dres got to that stage, because prior to it, I could never get him 'back' once he'd seen a dog. 
Now, he can see a dog, and I do have about 3 or 4 seconds or so of calm before he starts up, and they have to be a lot closer now than before, and he'll even look to me when he's spotted the dog because he's expecting a treat.

He even barks at tiny puppies, though. We saw a tiny, floppy little lab pup bounding along on the other side of the road recently and he had a good bark at that, which he can't possibly perceive as any kind of threat, but still he reacts to it like it was an older dog.
There doesn't seem to be any kind of pattern with him.
Though he also barks in exactly the same way at horses, cats, or anything else he isn't sure of that we see on a walk, so Im not sure if its a dog specific thing, or more just an excitement/apprehension thing.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I walked passed one of the neighbours yesterday who has a pair of labs, one black one yellow. The yellow lab goes mad on the lead when she sees another dog and barks aggressively and lunges. He says she only wants to play, but I'm not so sure and usually give them a wide berth as he looks like he is just about managing to hold on. Jodi used to react by doing much the same back, but yesterday she only wanted to get past and away. She may not have been able to hear the barks as she is very deaf now, or maybe her age has caught up with her and she doesn't want to confront as much as she used to.

It will be interesting to see how she reacts to the new pup across the road as she doesn't like pups either.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Wiz201 said:


> I have a reactive golden retriever. When we meet oncoming dogs I take her to one side and fish out a treat for her to nibble on whilst they're passing, then we carry on. If they seem friendly, I ask the owner if she can greet them and do a controlled greeting like that. Most of the time she's fine, but there are dogs that don't like her.


Excellent advice.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Siskin said:


> I walked passed one of the neighbours yesterday who has a pair of labs, one black one yellow. The yellow lab goes mad on the lead when she sees another dog and barks aggressively and lunges. He says she only wants to play, but I'm not so sure and usually give them a wide berth as he looks like he is just about managing to hold on.


I've had this problem with Spencer. People see him as being aggressive but his barking and lunging is frustration at not being able to meet and greet. If the other dog comes up to him he's all play bows and tail wags.

Thankfully we seem to have more or less gotten on top of it now but there are still the odd occasions where he'll have a bark. Usually places like the vets waiting room where he's in close proximity but not able to say hello.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Siskin said:


> I walked passed one of the neighbours yesterday who has a pair of labs, one black one yellow. The yellow lab goes mad on the lead when she sees another dog and barks aggressively and lunges. *He says she only wants to play, but I'm not so sure and usually give them a wide berth as he looks like he is just about managing to hold on.* Jodi used to react by doing much the same back, but yesterday she only wanted to get past and away. She may not have been able to hear the barks as she is very deaf now, or maybe her age has caught up with her and she doesn't want to confront as much as she used to.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how she reacts to the new pup across the road as she doesn't like pups either.


See thats my thought, I am pretty sure Ginge just wants to say hello but that kind of behaviour is unlikely to get her a good reception, and there has been that one incident, I in no way blame people for thinking she is a stroppy old cow.

I really don't want to go down this route, I really worry it might make her more nervous, but I need to do something, I have emailed one of the behaviorists colleagues although I have no idea if she will be prepared to advise me or not. I think I may order one and work on acclimatisation anyway, it may be useful, one day.

I watched the two videos linked to they were very helpful, I also found one by the muzzle manufacturers which said take your dog into the store and try it on -  I see thats the best idea for fit but not likely to make your dog like them surely.


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## Strawberryearth (Apr 5, 2012)

Wanted to offer my support and empathy too. We had a mad walk with Betty this morning, just when things were going so well. I suppose we got a bit lax with it all, TBH, and I can only blame myself. 

We used to treat on approach of a trigger (usually a person but this has progressed to other dogs now too) then again while passing and a reward for being calm. We reduced this to a focus on me then a reward for being calm but lately (we misplaced her treat bag which meant it stopped coming on walks with us and therefore we stopped training in that way) it has all gone backwards.

This morning she reacted very badly to our neighbours dog while on a walk. Normally she is all mouth and barks from across the road (although sometimes it is a whinny, play with me type noise which we find very confusing). This morning, however, we were followed by them so I stopped to let them pass. Now normally when this happens the approach of the other dog is enough to make Betty run behind my legs but this morning it was completely different, she actually gruffed a lot, a few growls and then it looked like a snap- only not very fast. I couldnt tell because I was on the other end of her lead but my OH said it looked like she wanted to bite him. Thankfully the owner is aware of her issues and has regaled me with tales of woe about their dog and other people/animals. He has always been very tolerant of Betty but this morning took me completely by surprise, bless him he didnt bat an eyelid and they just walked on. After they left Betty began her whining and play with me noises...! So now I have no idea whether it was a really negative reaction or whether she was in play mode and just thought she was playing with him (although I know this is bad manners, it would help me identify whether to be very worried or not)!

I have drawn up a schedule of BAT and systematic desensitisation for her every walk which I have been thinking of doing for ages but never got round to. 

I hope things work out for you, please keep me updated on your progress, I would love someone to share woes with! I was following Pupcakes thread, but it seems to have gone quite. I might go and post in there too to get the support back up again!


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Strawberry Earth - you have a program!! how on earth does that work, thanks for the supportive vibes though. I said to hubby the other day its so hard to gauge progress because you can't repeat a day and it is tricky I think with all, but especially small dogs as they are so far away from you, to tell what their intentions actually are.

I have had a response from the lady from the behavior centre (the lady I see is having some time off) who was very sympathetic having her own wee beastie 

She said that a well introduced muzzle is in her opinion an essential tool for all dogs but especially reactive ones. And she sympathised about what she called 'ghost like' owners saying she feels much more confident telling them where to go when her own dog is muzzled so I have ordered one and we will see how the introduction goes. Phew!


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## Strawberryearth (Apr 5, 2012)

GingerRogers said:


> Strawberry Earth - *you have a program!! how on earth does that work*, thanks for the supportive vibes though. I said to hubby the other day its so hard to gauge progress because you can't repeat a day and it is tricky I think with all, but especially small dogs as they are so far away from you, to tell what their intentions actually are.
> 
> I have had a response from the lady from the behavior centre (the lady I see is having some time off) who was very sympathetic having her own wee beastie
> 
> She said that a well introduced muzzle is in her opinion an essential tool for all dogs but especially reactive ones. And she sympathised about what she called 'ghost like' owners saying she feels much more confident telling them where to go when her own dog is muzzled so I have ordered one and we will see how the introduction goes. Phew!


I think I have managed to make it sound a lot fancier that it actually is! It is basically me putting down on paper something that I can refer to, and OH, for our walks. They start off with a "stage 1 walks"- where she gets a click for looking at the trigger, then a functional reward (increasing distance from trigger) then a bonus reward- food. This moves on to a "stage 2 walks" where we click for her offering a passive signal on noticing the trigger (like sniffing the ground, looking at me without prompt or general disinterest), then do the functional reward and bonus reward. This sort of ties in BAT with systematic desensitisation (as they are similar anyway) as we will be getting closer and closer to the trigger until we can pass them with a click for good behaviour, functional reward (which at this stage would be to keep walking away from them) and then a foody bonus.

I need to have it written down because my motivation is based on this sort of "list hygine"- I make lists of things that need to be done as it helps me to focus and means they actually get done.

On my "programme" I also have a part where I list actions for our sitting and observing sessions- and time limits as I don't want her to lose interest or become overwhelmed. I also made sure I covered a "surprise" over threshold plan, for when people unexpectedly turn a blind corner/pop out of cars and frighten the living daylights out of you, never mind poor 7in to the withers pooch!

I agree, it is really hard to gauge progress...until you go back a few stages then you realise just how good things were actually going! Then kick yourself for letting things slip, I realise that I am doing it for her benefit and cannot "forget" to take treats with me on a walk. I would have them permenetly in every pocket if they weren't perishable. Frankly I don't want to walk around with the aroma of old chicken...

I had never considered a muzzle because Betty had never reacted the way that she did today, I had always had her pegged as a fear reactive dog who would never instigate anything like that. It is something I am now considering, with reluctance, I am not sure whether it will be something I go for just yet.

I am glad you have some support from a behaviourist, I am still early days in this reactivity thing- it used to just be stranger danger but has progressed somewhat recently to her thinking anyone might attempt to approach her, so giving them a bark for good measure. Keep going, you know they're worth it!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Siskin said:


> I walked passed one of the neighbours yesterday who has a pair of labs, one black one yellow. *The yellow lab goes mad on the lead when she sees another dog and barks aggressively and lunges. He says she only wants to play, but I'm not so sure and usually give them a wide berth as he looks like he is just about managing to hold on.* Jodi used to react by doing much the same back, but yesterday she only wanted to get past and away. She may not have been able to hear the barks as she is very deaf now, or maybe her age has caught up with her and she doesn't want to confront as much as she used to.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how she reacts to the new pup across the road as she doesn't like pups either.


That's just what Dexter does. Lunges, barks, goes mad. But it's sheer excitement and then frustration at not being able to greet the other dog. He's the biggest softy with other dogs!


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