# Why are people with badly behaved dogs....



## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

So bloody ignorant?

Owners with dogs that bark, snap, growl & bear their teeth who carry on as if it's nothing leaving me & the OH to get ours out of the way to avoid a possible conflict while they just saunter along oblivious to what's going on!

Had one this morning, a collie that was doing all the above & then started lunging at mine with it's owner saying "he's ok, he doesn't mean it".... Really? It had it's lips pulled back, snarling & air snapping & was on it's back legs straining to get to mine... I wouldn't like to see it when it did mean it then!

The thing is my 19 month old boy is normally very dog friendly but he's now starting to react to dogs that bark/snarl at him, his body language changes as soon as the barking starts becoming stiff & tense. Up to now Thors been as good as gold & I don't want that to change but this morning I could see he was getting wound up & it will be a big shame if he starts to distrust other dogs because of a few useless owners.

I know if I owned a dog that was aggressive I would make sure that it was me who gave way to avoid any situation & not expect other owners to have to move!

Maybe it's just me, I dunno.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

You just reminded me of something I was going to post yesterday. I was walking down the road (without the dogs) and two ladies were chatting, with a Yorkie at their feet. The Yorkie completely ignored me, but then took exception to the lady who was walking behind me. I heard mad barking and snapping and turned round to see the two ladies laughing and saying what a silly boy he was. I really wanted to march up and tell them that, actually, it's way beyond "silly boy" and because they have let him behave in this manner, he is actually vicious. It's only because of his size that he gets away with it. 

I don't know, may be I'm overreacting, but I know that my two huskies are very wary around tiny dogs, and the biggest of the two will move behind me if one comes too close.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

One option is, from day one with new dogs and puppies make it a habit to rapid fire treats with dog encounters. This encourages the dog to a) look to you when there is another dog, b) learn to ignore other dogs in favor of the treats they know are coming, and c) not develop negative associations with the presence of other dogs. 

This has helped my now 6 and 7 year old dogs be pretty much bombproof in all sorts of dog encounters which makes life SO much easier. 

I’m like you though, I’m often left shaking my head at the behavior of other dog owners, wondering if they are really that ignorant, or embarrassed, or caught off guard... IDK?
Sunday we went to the “big” city up the road to walk around downtown to see the lights and decorations. We brought one dog with us - the one who enjoys hustle and bustle and busy crowds. The sidewalks were packed, lots of people, and at one point, we stepped aside for a stroller, and this miniature dachshund explodes out from the side of the stroller (almost knocking it over) lunging and barking at our dog. There was absolutely no where for me to go to give the poor dog (who was clearly very freaked out) some space, the owner looked embarrassed and confused. I don’t know if he brought a reactive dog to a very busy place not realizing it wasn’t the best idea, or if his dog was reacting that way for the first time or what. Either way, it’s a good thing my much larger dog didn’t react, because that could have been a really bad situation as crowded as it was....

Overall though it was a lovely outing


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## pinklizzy (Dec 19, 2009)

My two were the badly behaved ones on our walk this morning (not being aggressive but rude and boisterous and apparently deaf!) I was totally mortified and apologised profusely!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> One option is, from day one with new dogs and puppies make it a habit to rapid fire treats with dog encounters. This encourages the dog to a) look to you when there is another dog, b) learn to ignore other dogs in favor of the treats they know are coming, and c) not develop negative associations with the presence of other dogs.


This is working so well for Lola (she's such a greedy guts) that she has started demanding treats whenever she sees another dog. So now I'm slowly, slowly weaning her off the treats (never will stop them, she would zap me with killer laser beams if I tried!), but keeping her attention firmly locked on me.

Unfortunately Dex has zero interest in treats or toys when other dogs are around, so I'm still working on getting him to calmly stay by me until the other dog either stops for a sniff or walks off. I fear that this outcome is a long way off though.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

pinklizzy said:


> My two were the badly behaved ones on our walk this morning (not being aggressive but rude and boisterous and apparently deaf!) I was totally mortified and apologised profusely!


Were you walking my two? Dex gets so excited when he sees another dog that he puts all his Husky dragging skills into action. Usually, if I see the other dogs first I have time to shorten the lead and get them to sit, but if they see the dog before I do, then I get yanked off my feet.

I also spend all my walks apologising. That is why I go so many different routes - I can't bear the thought of bumping into the same people day in and day out.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> This is working so well for Lola (she's such a greedy guts) that she has started demanding treats whenever she sees another dog. So now I'm slowly, slowly weaning her off the treats (never will stop them, she would zap me with killer laser beams if I tried!), but keeping her attention firmly locked on me.
> 
> Unfortunately Dex has zero interest in treats or toys when other dogs are around, so I'm still working on getting him to calmly stay by me until the other dog either stops for a sniff or walks off. I fear that this outcome is a long way off though.


Hey, if she's demanding treats she's not reacting, so I'd call it a win 
With some dogs I've had to do some soothing handling/massage initially to help them settle in the presence of other dogs before they are able to move towards enjoying treats as well. That or start offering treats at a much greater distance from other dogs. It's basic desensitization/counter conditioning, but it takes some finesse to apply it effectively with more worried dogs.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Hey, if she's demanding treats she's not reacting, so I'd call it a win
> With some dogs I've had to do some soothing handling/massage initially to help them settle in the presence of other dogs before they are able to move towards enjoying treats as well. That or start offering treats at a much greater distance from other dogs. It's basic desensitization/counter conditioning, but it takes some finesse to apply it effectively with more worried dogs.


They're not worried, more SO EXCITED to see other dogs. You would think that I locked them away from the world, the way they carry on.

I am so proud of Lola though. I know Dex wants to please me, but his desire to have a good old bottom sniff overrides absolutely everything else in the world


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

oh I dunno I have one of these "problem" dogs you hate so much, he does put on quite an impressive show with strange dogs,he is always on lead . Why is it those with friendly " well behaved" dogs cant show some bloody consideration to those who might be struggling with theirs, like giving them some space, keeping their dogs away - after all its much easier for you and your " well behaved" dog.
See normally I would roll my eyes and ignore this thread but after I had a terrier blow his owners recall, and run clean up to my ON LEAD dog yesterday - meaning he had to deal with the stress of being manhandled, instead of our usual - turn and walk away ( other dog would have followed) I feel the need for a small rant


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

MiffyMoo said:


> You just reminded me of something I was going to post yesterday. I was walking down the road (without the dogs) and two ladies were chatting, with a Yorkie at their feet. The Yorkie completely ignored me, but then took exception to the lady who was walking behind me. I heard mad barking and snapping and turned round to see the two ladies laughing and saying what a silly boy he was. I really wanted to march up and tell them that, actually, it's way beyond "silly boy" and because they have let him behave in this manner, he is actually vicious. It's only because of his size that he gets away with it.
> 
> I don't know, may be I'm overreacting, but I know that my two huskies are very wary around tiny dogs, and the biggest of the two will move behind me if one comes too close.


What did you want them to do though?

Last night I told Brock that actually people are allowed to walk places and he was being silly...because he was, makes no difference what I say to him either way, so sometimes it is just random stuff.

In general, yep people should move and let you by, I do, I move as far away as I can, but as for what they say...that's different.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't know - they get on my t*ts!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> oh I dunno I have one of these "problem" dogs you hate so much, he does put on quite an impressive show with strange dogs,he is always on lead . Why is it those with friendly " well behaved" dogs cant show some bloody consideration to those who might be struggling with theirs, like giving them some space, keeping their dogs away - after all its much easier for you and your " well behaved" dog.
> See normally I would roll my eyes and ignore this thread but after I had a terrier blow his owners recall, and run clean up to my ON LEAD dog yesterday - meaning he had to deal with the stress of being manhandled, instead of our usual - turn and walk away ( other dog would have followed) I feel the need for a small rant


I get this rant in my head every time we're out. The other day we were on a narrow path and both of them were being absolute buggers with pulling. Then a couple walked behind me with their off leash collie and Dex almost did a back flip trying to get to it. Usually I would stand aside and shoo the other owners on, to make my life a bit easier, but that wasn't possible on this path. They could see that I was really struggling to get Dex to move forward, but they just kept pace with me anyway. I know it's my dog who is being a bugger, but in my head I was quite cross, as it wouldn't have taken much for them to hang back a little until I had him under control and moving forward.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

tabulahrasa said:


> What did you want them to do though?
> 
> Last night I told Brock that actually people are allowed to walk places and he was being silly...because he was, makes no difference what I say to him either way, so sometimes it is just random stuff.
> 
> In general, yep people should move and let you by, I do, I move as far away as I can, but as for what they say...that's different.


I would say that training your dog not to go for people would be a good start. Laughing and saying "silly boy" will just let the dog think that you approve of this behaviour


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> They're not worried, more SO EXCITED to see other dogs. You would think that I locked them away from the world, the way they carry on.


Sorry, I might be getting you mixed up with another poster, but are yours the dogs who go to doggy daycare? If so, that may be part of the problem, they assume all dogs are there for their entertainment... Which not all dogs are going to appreciate....



Lexiedhb said:


> Why is it those with friendly " well behaved" dogs cant show some bloody consideration to those who might be struggling with theirs, like giving them some space, keeping their dogs away - after all its much easier for you and your " well behaved" dog.


Well, I wouldn't class either of mine as "friendly" but I do agree with you that if my dog is unaffected, it's no skin off my back to help another dog owner out and try to give some space. It's hard enough to deal with a dog reacting, and trying to create distance as well might not even be possible. If my dogs and I can make room, we do. Unfortunately, this last instance I literally had no where to go - narrow sidewalk anyway that was totally packed with people in front of us and behind us, and there was a building to the side of us, so all I could do was just slowly continue walking by as the poor doxie went apeshit on us. (Bates did get lots of treats for not eating the squeaky dog.)


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

My tiny yorkie can sometimes react if a dog gets too close, especially if they are off lead. I will say 'don't be silly' in a calm voice as that is what the trainer recommends. I'm not going to start yelling at her or yanking her around because a dog has invaded her space. If people can't read my putting her on the other side if they approach as enough of a clue, then I'm afaid I'm not going to get stressed about her behaviour as that doesn't help either.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Sorry, I might be getting you mixed up with another poster, but are yours the dogs who go to doggy daycare? If so, that may be part of the problem, they assume all dogs are there for their entertainment... Which not all dogs are going to appreciate....


Wow, good memory! Yup, mine do go to DDC. I figured that this is why they think all dogs are awesome and up for a play, but I want to train them that, on lead that's not the case, but off lead they can go for it (they're never off lead when we go for walks, only at DDC where they are safely in a field with a massive deer fence surrounding it and staff monitoring them all the time). Slowly, slowly...


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I assume this Collie was on lead as you say it was straining and on it's back legs? So why does that bother you? At least the owner isn't allowing it off to lead to terrorize all & sundry. And contrary to what it may seem at the time, reactive dogs can be very friendly on meeting. If your dog is friendly and unresponsive to such reactions it shouldn't bother you, no? And if your dog is starting to react, that's your own problem, not the fault of the other dog owners.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

MiffyMoo said:


> I would say that training your dog not to go for people would be a good start. Laughing and saying "silly boy" will just let the dog think that you approve of this behaviour


My dog doesn't care much what I think of his behaviour though.

My point is that you have no clue what someone has tried or not tried to do with a dog with a behavioural issue and as long as the dog isn't affecting you in any particular way, I don't see that it matters what the owner says.

I make sure mine is a safe distance from anyone passing by in case he objects to them and under close enough control that if he does object to them that he can't get any closer...that's my responsibility to other people done.

I'm not going to waste my time making sure the person passing by thinks I've said the right thing as well.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Wow, good memory! Yup, mine do go to DDC. I figured that this is why they think all dogs are awesome and up for a play, but I want to train them that, on lead that's not the case, *but off lead they can go for it* (they're never off lead when we go for walks, only at DDC where they are safely in a field with a massive deer fence surrounding it and staff monitoring them all the time). Slowly, slowly...


Getting off on a tangent here, but that's one of my (many) issues with doggy daycare. 
It shouldn't be that "off lead they can go for it", it should be that your dogs are reading other dog's signals, and respecting them. Other off lead dogs may have zero interest in playing with yours (or any dogs).


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

BlackadderUK said:


> So bloody ignorant?
> 
> Owners with dogs that bark, snap, growl & bear their teeth who carry on as if it's nothing leaving me & the OH to get ours out of the way to avoid a possible conflict while they just saunter along oblivious to what's going on!
> 
> ...


Well, your main complaint seems to be that the owners of these onlead, reactive dogs just keep on walking.

Having owned and walked a reactive dog for fifteen years, I found keeping moving was the best thing to do. I would always try and give other dogs a wide berth, but sometimes, that isn't possible, so I would shorten the lead and keep going. It wouldn't have made sense for me to stop and offer my apologies, which would have put my dog in a position to get at the dog he was objecting to.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Why is it those with friendly " well behaved" dogs cant show some bloody consideration to those who might be struggling with theirs, like giving them some space, keeping their dogs away - after all its much easier for you and your " well behaved" dog.


I'm all for helping out but how about a warning? Something like "he's not good with other dogs" perhaps & give people a chance to make the space? I don't know how your dog reacts...you do!
In the case above the woman wasn't struggling, she didn't seem to be concerned at all.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> oh I dunno I have one of these "problem" dogs you hate so much, he does put on quite an impressive show with strange dogs,he is always on lead . Why is it those with friendly " well behaved" dogs cant show some bloody consideration to those who might be struggling with theirs, like giving them some space, keeping their dogs away - after all its much easier for you and your " well behaved" dog.
> See normally I would roll my eyes and ignore this thread but after I had a terrier blow his owners recall, and run clean up to my ON LEAD dog yesterday - meaning he had to deal with the stress of being manhandled, instead of our usual - turn and walk away ( other dog would have followed) I feel the need for a small rant


I don't blame you, especially when you are doing your best to prevent such meetings! Loose dogs are a particular pain because there is always that chance of you not being able to block them, whilst trying to keep your dog calm and non-reactive - against the odds?

I don't understand the ones I pass on opposite sides of the lane (no way of avoiding) who have clearly given up (or perhaps never tried) to work on the dog's issues but simply allow them to go mental on the end of the lead! This is often the case with small dogs because they can manage to hold them back long enough to go past.

Difficult for even the most friendly, chilled out dog to ignore


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Getting off on a tangent here, but that's one of my (many) issues with doggy daycare.
> It shouldn't be that "off lead they can go for it", it should be that your dogs are reading other dog's signals, and respecting them. Other off lead dogs may have zero interest in playing with yours (or any dogs).


The dogs are all introduced to each other and are in separate fields depending on temperament and size. I frequently get Facetimed or sent video clips and the dogs are having a lovely time either playing or digging or lazing around. Not once have I seen anything that looks like another dog stressing any other. It's very much down to the professionalism of the DDC. The main thing for me is that mine get to run around, which they can't do when I walk them.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

BlackadderUK said:


> In the case above the woman wasn't struggling, she didn't seem to be concerned at all.


Just to put another option out there, it could be that she was trying very hard to stay calm for the sake of her dog. You just never know.
In the case I described, it would be easy to say "what idiot brings a reactive dog to crowded, tight quarters while trying to push a stroller?" But for all I know, his dog had never done anything like that before and this was the first time, or maybe he thought the stroller would block the dog's view and less chance of a reaction, or maybe he was indeed ignorant of his dog's needs.... No way of knowing, so I *try* (not always successfully) not to judge too much


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Well, your main complaint seems to be that the owners of these onlead, reactive dogs just keep on walking.
> 
> I would always try and give other dogs a wide berth, but sometimes, that isn't possible, so I would shorten the lead and keep going.


Yes that is my complaint & I agree it's sometimes not possible for a wide berth but to make no effort at all to do anything as this woman did...


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

MiffyMoo said:


> I would say that training your dog not to go for people would be a good start. Laughing and saying "silly boy" will just let the dog think that you approve of this behaviour


Perhaps they are training their dog though? What would you prefer, the owner to smack their Yorkie around the head, alpha roll him, and tell him what a bad dog he is? Sometimes the random rambling of a reactive dog owner is that of embarrassment too. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> The dogs are all introduced to each other and are in separate fields depending on temperament and size. I frequently get Facetimed or sent video clips and the dogs are having a lovely time either playing or digging or lazing around. Not once have I seen anything that looks like another dog stressing any other. It's very much down to the professionalism of the DDC. The main thing for me is that mine get to run around, which they can't do when I walk them.


LOL if I were the owner of a doggy day care I don't think I would be sending you video clips of stressed dog interactions 
I said this before and I'll say it again, I don't think it's good for ANY dog to have to spend 7 hours a day 5 days a week interacting with other dogs. And from your descriptions of your dogs' behaviors, it sounds like it isn't for yours either. 
I'm not trying to be harsh here, I just think it's worth considering what your dogs are learning and what behaviors are being nurtured, and what the long term effects on your dogs might be....


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Just to put another option out there, it could be that she was trying very hard to stay calm for the sake of her dog. You just never know.


Well you might be right, it could even have been the first time her dog has ever reacted like that  Like I said it could just be me!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> Perhaps they are training their dog though? What would you prefer, the owner to smack their Yorkie around the head, alpha roll him, and tell him what a bad dog he is? Sometimes the random rambling of a reactive dog owner is that of embarrassment too. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt


Good God no! Unfortunately there are a lot of very pampered pooches in this area of London, and their owners spend the majority of their time ignoring them whilst out on walks, or just end up popping them in their bags. I'm afraid I do let my bias come into play here - you can't blame poor dogs who are dressed up to the nines and carted around in handbags all day, it's definitely the fault of the people who just want a status dog.


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Well when my dog was going through his adolescence DA stage, I was one of those horrible owners with a badly behaved dog. I wasn`t going to tell you he isn`t friendly. I`m trying to concentrate on my dog and I`m walking him on a lead, we also walked the streets so other dogs should be on a lead anyway. I`m assuming you won`t be letting your dog come near him in the streets on a lead.
He`s fine now, but I give other dogs a wide berth anyway and if we have to pass one, I put him on the other side of me and keep him concentrating on me. And if the owner of the friendly dog has them offlead, they shouldn`t be approaching other dogs and if they are onlead, it`s a good training opportunity to teach your dog to ignore other dogs that are reacting to him


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> LOL if I were the owner of a doggy day care I don't think I would be sending you video clips of stressed dog interactions
> I said this before and I'll say it again, I don't think it's good for ANY dog to have to spend 7 hours a day 5 days a week interacting with other dogs. And from your descriptions of your dogs' behaviors, it sounds like it isn't for yours either.
> I'm not trying to be harsh here, I just think it's worth considering what your dogs are learning and what behaviors are being nurtured, and what the long term effects on your dogs might be....


Unfortunately it is what it is. Both have SA, and the behaviourist told me that Dex was well on the way to giving himself a heart attack with the level of stress that he gets himself into for prolongedf periods of time if left home. Personally, I prefer my dog to be alive and a sod when I take him out walking than easier on the lead but a complete wreck and killing himself with the stress


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Unfortunately it is what it is. Both have SA, and the behaviourist told me that Dex was well on the way to giving himself a heart attack with the level of stress that he gets himself into for prolongedf periods of time if left home. Personally, I prefer my dog to be alive and a sod when I take him out walking than easier on the lead but a complete wreck and killing himself with the stress


Oh, I thought they went so they could run around.


MiffyMoo said:


> The main thing for me is that mine get to run around, which they can't do when I walk them.


Didn't realize there was SA as well.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

BlackadderUK said:


> Yes that is my complaint & I agree it's sometimes not possible for a wide berth but to make no effort at all to do anything as this woman did...


Well, speaking from my own experience, I found it better to shorten the lead, stay very calm and walk by as swiftly as I could when Blizzard kicked off at another dog.

Before you get upset that the woman you mention did nothing, what did you expect her to do?

I suppose she could have started yelling at her dog or yanking him around, but that would undoubtedly have made him worse, as it would have done with my dog.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I have a dog that was repeatedly attacked by other dogs in her previous home. As a result she is fearful and particularly so onlead since she was bundled and bitten by a group of offlead small dogs as we walked along the pavement and they ran out of a park unaccompanied- one went for her neck, another ragged her tail.
To this day she cannot deal with offleaders rapidly approaching her onlead. After much work, she will happily ignore fellow onleaders so long as they don't stare or bark at her (if they do she becomes hyper-vigilant and that is my cue to get her some distance). Offlead she can cope with others being around and avoids contact and interaction.

It infuriates me, as someone who goes to great efforts to ensure that we don't cause any bother, when others don't seem to give a fart. There is a strange woman with a spaniel who seems to find it highly amusing when her dog gobs off at others. She has a habit of walking up behind other dog owners and overtaking them with her dog on the side closest to them, her dog gobbing off the moment he looks at the other. She walks on allowing him to pause to try and pull back at the other dog, with a peculiar grin on her face.

Whenever, if ever (it's rare- I avoid twits), I see her now- I turn on my heels and walk in the opposite direction. She always looks flummoxed. dOG knows what is going on in her brain. Maybe it'll click someday and she'll realise that nobody wants to walk near her because she is a pain in the posterior.

ETA: I should add that I don't blame the dog whatsoever, but I just cannot fathom why the owner insists on moving her dog close to the other dogs, when she could continue walking further behind at her normal walking speed (she appears to deliberately speed up to get her dog closer to others), when the dog is quite happy (and non-reactive) walking at that the standard speed, with distance from the other dog. It really is most strange.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Before you get upset that the woman you mention did nothing, what did you expect her to do?
> 
> I suppose she could have started yelling at her dog or yanking him around, but that would undoubtedly have made him worse, as it would have done with my dog.


What did I expect her to do? Well it certainly wasn't to start yelling at her dog & nowhere have I said that. Perhaps to stop & just tell me that her dog wasn't good with other dogs might have helped.. no need for yanking or yelling! That way we could have made space or I could have taken mine somewhere else, much more preferable to what happened.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Just to put another option out there, it could be that she was trying very hard to stay calm for the sake of her dog. You just never know.
> In the case I described, it would be easy to say "what idiot brings a reactive dog to crowded, tight quarters while trying to push a stroller?" But for all I know, his dog had never done anything like that before and this was the first time, or maybe he thought the stroller would block the dog's view and less chance of a reaction, or maybe he was indeed ignorant of his dog's needs.... No way of knowing, so I *try* (not always successfully) not to judge too much


In that scenario that's a fair consideration. And I do try to give the benefit of the doubt 

When it's local dogs that you have good knowledge and experience of, as well as the owner's CBA attitude, it's not so easy to be so charitable 

Jack regularly acts as "decoy" dog for his FA pal to prevent her being pushed over threshold by owners/dogs who invade her space, despite having explained on numerous occasions that she is scared of other dogs and needs space. Our two are on lead, and invariably we are attempting to preserve a good safe zone - often ignored 

A woman with her daughter in a pushchair, reactive Airedale attached was regularly getting dragged across the lane by it while Jack and I practically walked in the ditch to avoid the dog narrowly making contact with us. Sometimes with a car coming!

The woman always said "oh why are you being silly today?".

The dog did it EVERY time! I have never seen her try to gain any control of the dog, redirect it or lower it's anxiety. It's only luck that the pushchair has not been pulled over or all of them ended up under a car!

If I spot her now i turn and walk in the opposite direction, regardless how far down the lane I have got, because I know if I don't we will be witness to/victim of the same bad comedy!


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

BlackadderUK said:


> What did I expect her to do? Well it certainly wasn't to start yelling at her dog & nowhere have I said that. Perhaps to stop & just tell me that her dog wasn't good with other dogs might have helped.. no need for yanking or yelling! That way we could have made space or I could have taken mine somewhere else, much more preferable to what happened.


She could have shouted out to you, but I imagine stopping would of either made her dog worse, set your dog off or her dog might even have managed to get near to your dog and bite him.


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

@ouesi When I was reading that post about the Dachshund and the owner looking confused. Are your dogs Great Dane sized? Just wondering, because I know my dog who is not reactive to other dogs, does lose himself a little bit when he comes across giant dogs. They are huge in comparison to him and I think it scares him a little so he may bark and react a little. Just asking, because that might of been why the Dachshund owner looked confused at his dog reacting! I always avoid Giant dogs if possible, so not to set him off!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

That actually reminds me of a similar experience we had @Lurcherlad. I was walking Missy at our regular haunt where we were known by the regulars and as such, people often took action to either avoid a meeting with us, or approached us with their dog on lead. Sometimes you'd get complete randoms walking there and this particular day two ladies with two toddlers in pushchairs and two on lead Labs attached approached. I moved off the path as it was very narrow, and as I did, before Missy had even clocked the dogs, the Labs had lunged and pulled in an overly exuberant manner to get towards us. Missy then reacted at the commotion, and the Lab came barrelling over with a lady scrambling and shouting for the dog to return and giving me the most filthy of looks! She then had the audacity to ask why I had stepped off the path so quickly..... and I replied my dog was not friendly with others which was met with "you shouldn't really be walking her here then"  This was a field, directly behind my house I had been using for near on 6/7 years. I'd never seen these owners before, and never saw them again lol.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

BlackadderUK said:


> I'm all for helping out but how about a warning? Something like "he's not good with other dogs" perhaps & give people a chance to make the space? I don't know how your dog reacts...you do!
> In the case above the woman wasn't struggling, she didn't seem to be concerned at all.


Entirely. But I assume this dog was on a lead? That's the only clue I need that this dog may well need some room - on lead meetings never a good idea Imo. Yes clearly thus particular owner, and the one ouesi mentions could possibly choose their walking areas more carefully, and keep theirs and other dogs safer, but trying to wrangle a proper reacting dog doesn't give one time to have the " he's not good with others" convo


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Blimey, I'd be in a few peoples bad books then. I kept walking with Rupert (usually with him in a headlock) if there were no handy side street or whatever to turn down to get away from a dog. And I'd usually be telling him not to be such an idiot while we did so. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't when it comes to how we should react when our dog kicks off at something. Once they're that far over threshold it's not a training situation anyway, it's a management and get out of there ASAP with as little damage done as possible.

Oh, and if Spen kicks off I comfort him. Why? Because if he's kicking off he's reached the point where he's terrified of whatever he's kicking off at.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Canine K9 said:


> She could have shouted out to you, but I imagine stopping would of either made her dog worse, set your dog off or her dog might even have managed to get near to your dog and bite him.


I don't see how stopping 50 yds away & warning me could have made things any worse to be honest. I could then have moved mine out of the way/taken another route but to do nothing when it's clear to me she knew how her dog reacted (sorry ouesi) was unacceptable....IMO


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

BlackadderUK said:


> I don't see how stopping 50 yds away & warning me could have made things any worse to be honest. I could then have moved mine out of the way/taken another route but to do nothing when it's clear to me she knew how her dog reacted (sorry ouesi) was unacceptable....IMO


Yes but the dog was on a lead I`m assuming? I always move mine out of the path of onlead dogs anyway, as onlead dogs (unless by a road or livestock of course) often mean the dog isn`t friendly. Of course some just may have bad recall, but I don`t take chances.
And stopping 50 yds away could of made things worse. The most important thing to do with a reactive dog is get them past the thing they are reacting at as quickly as possible IME.
And most people you say "S/he`s not friendly" too will just say "Oh its fine mines _really _friendly"


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Oh, I thought they went so they could run around.
> 
> Didn't realize there was SA as well.


The SA is the main reason. The fact that they get to run around and come home tired and happy is just a very good bonus. It would be lovely if I won the lottery, because then I wouldn't have to leave them for 12 hours a day and I could finally stop feeling guilty for having to palm them off on someone else.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

BlackadderUK said:


> I don't see how stopping 50 yds away & warning me could have made things any worse to be honest. I could then have moved mine out of the way/taken another route but to do nothing when it's clear to me she knew how her dog reacted (sorry ouesi) was unacceptable....IMO


To be fair, her dog was on lead, not sure whether yours was or not? but she's not obliged to tell you anything. This sounds more like frustration on your behalf because of your own dog's behaviour forming than anything else IMO.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Just to put another option out there, it could be that she was trying very hard to stay calm for the sake of her dog. You just never know.
> In the case I described, it would be easy to say "what idiot brings a reactive dog to crowded, tight quarters while trying to push a stroller?" But for all I know, his dog had never done anything like that before and this was the first time, or maybe he thought the stroller would block the dog's view and less chance of a reaction, or maybe he was indeed ignorant of his dog's needs.... No way of knowing, so I *try* (not always successfully) not to judge too much


I occasionally look like a tit with an out of control dog and a pram. 99% of the time Spen is great when out with it but occasionally he gets super excited about another dog and I'm sure people must be thinking I'm an idiot for walking such a badly behaved dog with a pram. Generally we can sit and wait for another dog to pass or pass reasonably calmly though.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Of course there is the odd dog that is "beyond reasoning" but I think the "moan" is more that a number of owners seemingly make no effort to reduce the anxiety of their own dogs and could care less about anyone else's either!


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> To be fair, her dog was on lead, not sure whether yours was or not? but she's not obliged to tell you anything. This sounds more like frustration on your behalf because of your own dog's behaviour forming than anything else IMO.


Mine are always on lead purely due to unreliable recall & the fact that most people are slightly concerned with big dogs bounding about off lead. I agree she's not obliged to say anything but it's not hard is it? A little bit of common sense might work. Oh, your damn right it's due to frustration...


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I don't think it's unreasonable to want a bit of a heads up that someone's dog is likely to react to yours...

It was what people say/do with their dogs aside from that that I was questioning, because I don't really see what it's got to do with anyone else.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I would never allow Rosie to approach an onlead dog. Most often, these dogs are onlead for a reason.

Had I ever stopped fifty yards away from another owner and started shouting that Blizzard wasn't friendly, it would have hyped him up and made him worse. The other option would have been for me to have stopped as I was passing the other dog to make this little speech and that would have made things ten times worse.

I'm not impressed by those who find it amusing when their dogs are kicking off, but don't assume that because someone hurries by and says nothing that it's because they don't care.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

Canine K9 said:


> @ouesi When I was reading that post about the Dachshund and the owner looking confused. Are your dogs Great Dane sized? Just wondering, because I know my dog who is not reactive to other dogs, does lose himself a little bit when he comes across giant dogs. They are huge in comparison to him and I think it scares him a little so he may bark and react a little. Just asking, because that might of been why the Dachshund owner looked confused at his dog reacting! I always avoid Giant dogs if possible, so not to set him off!


It could definitely be that Bates' size had something to do with it, but Bates isn't huge, he's 26 inches at the shoulder which is large but not huge. I mean, he's basically tall lab-sized which you wouldn't think was that big of a deal. 
I have no idea why the dog reacted to Bates, he was ignoring the other dog, attentive to the kids who were next to him, just moseying along. But it doesn't matter why the dog reacted, the fact is, he did, and usually I try to help the other owner out as mine are easier to maneuver than a reacting dog. As it was all I could do was try to get by as quickly as possible which wasn't very fast under the circumstances.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> The SA is the main reason. The fact that they get to run around and come home tired and happy is just a very good bonus. It would be lovely if I won the lottery, because then I wouldn't have to leave them for 12 hours a day and I could finally stop feeling guilty for having to palm them off on someone else.


Okay, again apologies for continuing on this tangent, but now I have to ask why would you adopt two dogs if you're gone 12 hours a day?

I hate to sound like I'm harping on this (and I suppose I am) but 7 hours of daycare (with other dogs) 5 days a week just can't be good for ANY dog. 
Your dogs already have anxiety issues (SA, resource guarding, etc.) and this can't be good for them to be in a state of alert/arousal for so long.

Surely an individual dog walker or quieter dog sitting situation would be better? Money can't be a factor, you must be spending a fortune on daycare...


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

BlackadderUK said:


> Mine are always on lead purely due to unreliable recall & the fact that most people are slightly concerned with big dogs bounding about off lead. I agree she's not obliged to say anything but it's not hard is it? A little bit of common sense might work. Oh, your damn right it's due to frustration...


Even less of a reason for her to 'warn' you then. All dogs were on lead and as an owner of a reactive dog myself I'd breathe a sigh of relief that all are under control and carry on my way.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Saying something can actually cause more of a problem as all too often people want to stop and chat about what you should be doing to solve the problem or how they or their dog are miracle workers who your dog will adore instantly  I never said anything if I had to pass dogs on leash but called out a warning if I had to pass one off leash (which actually made Rupert react more) as that dog would usually come over to "say hello".


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Tis all about which end of the lead you are on really is it not?

When it is the owner's dog that barks, lunges, growls, snaps it is called "reactive".

If it is the dog that belongs to someone else it is labelled "vicious"

Not everyone is a stellar dog owner.

Not everyone has a stellar dog.

Maybe they are doing the best they can.

What would you want these owners to say?

"O you very bad boy I will give you a hiding"?

Oh no, that would result in a post on this forum with a rant from someone saying how disgusted they were to hear that an owner was going to discipline their dog when it should be the owners who should be disciplined.

Perhaps those who expect charity, courtesy and understanding for their own dogs could extend it to others?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Okay, again apologies for continuing on this tangent, but now I have to ask why would you adopt two dogs if you're gone 12 hours a day?
> 
> I hate to sound like I'm harping on this (and I suppose I am) but 7 hours of daycare (with other dogs) 5 days a week just can't be good for ANY dog.
> Your dogs already have anxiety issues (SA, resource guarding, etc.) and this can't be good for them to be in a state of alert/arousal for so long.
> ...


When I got Dex I was told that he couldn't be left for longer than 2 hours a day; unfortunately this very quickly proved not to be the case. I got him just before his 2nd birthday and I was his 4th home; I was damned if he was going back to the shelter again, so I did a trial day at DDC and he was so happy when he came home, I knew that it was right for him.

I got Lola because he is so sociable that I thought it would be good for him. I was right, he is such a different dog to the boy I adopted 6 months ago. They adore each other and love playing and doing zoomies at home.

I also did consider a sitter, but where I live is a bit out of the way and I couldn't find anyone.

Anyway, DDC most certainly doesn't stress them out, and judging by how fast they gallop into the van every morning, I'm guessing that they love it


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

I said something when I was out with the dog on my bike yesterday. It was "can you call your dog". It was a white GSD & the lodger is not always good with white GSDs due to past experience - by not good I mean tell's them to get lost on general principle. Waste of breath. She came over anyway. I unclipped the lodger - better if he wasn't attatched to the bike - , they had a polite greeting then went and hung out with the other owners who made a big fuss of him. They said "Sorry she wants to meet everyone today" I explained that the lodger wasn't always great with White GSDs. Their dog was polite, so it was all fine. In fact I think it was better - a good, positive WGSD meeting - but I kind of think it's a lot easier just to manage the situation and get on with it.

I've never had a problem with onlead dogs having a "yikes stay away" meltdown - and they don't seem to bother the lodger either. Best instant fix is distance so the sooner the better.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

I try not judge but as we are all human (well mostly) we do, but if I see someone struggling with a dog on lead, I try to give them a wide berth and will put my two on their leads as it's common courtesy unless the other owner shouts over that they are friendly etc and then I'll leave my two off, but the few times I have met 'reactive' dogs on lead then we have either hurried past or stepped off the path to allow them to hurry past, but as long as their dog is on a lead an under control then I have no issue, as it could happen to any of us at anytime. Its never pleasant to see a dog acting as the OP explains so I feel the quicker I can get by the better for all around really.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> When I got Dex I was told that he couldn't be left for longer than 2 hours a day; unfortunately this very quickly proved not to be the case.


But you just said you're gone 12 hours a day, why would you adopt a dog knowing he could only be left for 2 hours? Which in this case turned out to be even less?
I'm genuinely curious here, not trying to pick at you. It just seems odd that someone who knows they will be gone 12 hours a day would take on a dog who can only be left for 2. I guess I'm missing something?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I sort see both points.

I have a Yorkie that can gob off at other dogs on lead, although her reactions appear to be random - sometimes she will, sometimes she won't batter an eyelid. She's scared, not aggressive, and if off lead would hit the deck. She's like this because she was frequently bombarded by off lead 'friendly' dogs. Luckily she is fairly easily distracted by a ball, or if need be I'll pick her up, meaning it never really gets to the point where it escalates. However, with a larger dog obviously the latter is not possible!

On the other hand, I also get what you are saying about your own dog. I took my puppy out for a short lead walk the other day and in that short space of time I think we walked past about 3 dogs that kicked off at her. Bad luck really, as when you analyse it more dogs are ok than not, but thankfully I was armed with sausages to distract her. I do not want my puppy thinking that every dog on a lead is going to kick off at her, but I guess the real world isn't pink and fluffy, and it's something you just have to deal with. Look at it as a training opportunity.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> Tis all about which end of the lead you are on really is it not?
> 
> When it is the owner's dog that barks, lunges, growls, snaps it is called "reactive".
> 
> ...


Again, I've never said I expected the owner to discipline their dog in any way whatsoever! I don't know where you got that from?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> But you just said you're gone 12 hours a day, why would you adopt a dog knowing he could only be left for 2 hours? Which in this case turned out to be even less?
> I'm genuinely curious here, not trying to pick at you. It just seems odd that someone who knows they will be gone 12 hours a day would take on a dog who can only be left for 2. I guess I'm missing something?


Because I was always going to either get a walker or send the DDC. Even if he didn't have SA I would have done that. Are you now saying that people who work shouldn't have dogs?


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I think it's easy to misjudge a dogs reaction to things and see their behaviour for something it actually isnt, and this is picking up on MiffyMoo's DDC situation. I have a dog who is easily aroused. He absolutely loves swimming in the hydro pool, drags me to the door and sits whining and trembling with impatience for the other people to come out so we can go in. I have absolutely no doubts that he finds it very exciting, but I also have absolutely no doubts that it is also very stressful for him, there are many clues that this is the case such as maniacal barking. This is just one example, there are lots of other things he gets into this state over too. So, I allow him to do these activities now and then, and for a limited time only. I never have him in the hydro pool for the full half hour because he's likely to bring on a seizure due to stress and over arousal, not a good mental state to be in at all for a lengthy time.

But back to the original post...It really doesnt bother me or my dogs if others kick off at them, providing the other dog is on a lead of course and cannot physically get to mine. I always give people a wide berth anyway regardless but any on lead dog is given lots of space and if it starts to bark and lunge, I just ignore it and calmly walk on by. I see it as no threat so my dogs dont tend to see it as a threat either. The only exception is in enclosed spaces such as training, if another dog specifically kicks off at Flynn then he is likely to react back but thats because he is confined and we cannot move away.


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## Jackien4 (May 16, 2015)

Some dogs are just like that . They are not all the same . But their owners love them. Some dogs are more dominate then others . And it's not always the owners fault . Just because that bark and jump around doesn't mean to say they are going to bite you . Even so it's best to not go to near just in case . Some dogs are nervous and that's how they show it .


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Because I was always going to either get a walker or send the DDC. Even if he didn't have SA I would have done that. Are you now saying that people who work shouldn't have dogs?


No, just curious about your reasoning, so thanks for answering.
I work full time so does OH, though I'm off now for the holidays and we can't go anywhere because of flooding, which is why you get to see me online during daytime hours on a weekday.
So, good old PF is stuck with me as I sit and ponder why we dog owners do the things we do and if our dogs are benefitting as we think they are


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> No, just curious about your reasoning, so thanks for answering.
> I work full time so does OH, though I'm off now for the holidays and we can't go anywhere because of flooding, which is why you get to see me online during daytime hours on a weekday.
> So, good old PF is stuck with me as I sit and ponder why we dog owners do the things we do and if our dogs are benefitting as we think they are


That's what I was saying earlier about the constant guilt feelings. I'm convinced that I'm not doing the best for them unless I can buy 100 acres with plenty of woods for them to chase squirrels around and a massive mud pit (trust me, my 2 would sell their souls for never ending squirrels and mud. And beagles. They love beagles)

I hope the flooding hasn't affected your home, it's horrible watching the news and seeing what you're all going through


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> That's what I was saying earlier about the constant guilt feelings. I'm convinced that I'm not doing the best for them unless I can buy 100 acres with plenty of woods for them to chase squirrels around and a massive mud pit (trust me, my 2 would sell their souls for never ending squirrels and mud. And beagles. They love beagles)
> 
> I hope the flooding hasn't affected your home, it's horrible watching the news and seeing what you're all going through


I don't think any of us qualify as perfect owners, there is always something we can do better. 
I guess my caution to you would be to not allow those feelings of guilt to pressure you in to making choices for your dogs that may not be the best for them.

Remember that most things get better with practice. It sounds like your dogs are getting a lot of practice in arousal and excitement. The more your guys practice being aroused and excited, and yes, anxious too, the better they will get at saying aroused, excited, and anxious - even when it is not appropriate or beneficial for them to be so. Just something to think about as you navigate your life with them and theirs with you


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

All dogs were on leash...so what actually happened?
If the dog was off leash and came bounding over then I would understand. You were walking in a public space, all dogs were on leash. No dogs were harmed (unless I'm missing something), so what's the problem?

Many reactive dogs are fine and dandy with other dogs after an appropriate meeting, so her saying "He didn't mean it" might be right...

If your dog is starting to tense around other dogs then you need to address that behaviour, not get frustrated at other people walking their dogs in a public area whilst on leash IMHO.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

BlackadderUK said:


> Again, I've never said I expected the owner to discipline their dog in any way whatsoever! I don't know where you got that from?


I have no idea where you got the idea that my post was referring to yours?

I have never had any idea that you expected the owner to discipline their dog in any way whatsoever!

I don't know where you got that idea from?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I don't think any of us qualify as perfect owners, there is always something we can do better.
> I guess my caution to you would be to not allow those feelings of guilt to pressure you in to making choices for your dogs that may not be the best for them.
> 
> Remember that most things get better with practice. It sounds like your dogs are getting a lot of practice in arousal and excitement. The more your guys practice being aroused and excited, and yes, anxious too, the better they will get at saying aroused, excited, and anxious - even when it is not appropriate or beneficial for them to be so. Just something to think about as you navigate your life with them and theirs with you


That does make sense. The owner tells me that they are both very good at disappearing off for a snooze (playing is hard work!) and totally ignoring anyone who want to play. I think Dex has had plenty of practise at this with Lola; she's only 1(ish, we don't really know), so thinks that twitching your toe is an invitation to play.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Tbh I have no problem with people passing who have dogs that lunge and snarl, if they've got them on a lead and are safely under control. Where we walk, there's a lady we often meet who has two spaniels and a terrier. We used to run into her a lot when Daisy was a puppy and she always had the spaniels offlead and they would play. I'm not sure what's happened, but one of them seems to have got very DA (along with the terrier) so now when we see them, the three of them are always on the lead and two of them are lunging and snarling to try to get Daisy. I just get off the path and stand well out of the way with Daisy until they are past. It's no skin off our nose to move to the side for 15 seconds or so, and it's much easier for us to do it than the women with the three dogs. At least she's out there every day walking them, even though some walks can't be too pleasant. It's not any of my business what she's doing to train them, as they're always on lead and easy to avoid should I want to.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I generally have no problem with on leash dogs lunging and snarling or whatever providing they're under control and unable to get at mine. Spen is the same, he completely ignores them and instead looks to me for a treat coz these types of dog have come to mean treats rain from the sky lol. I did however have a problem with an elderly woman with at least 6 large and clearly unfriendly dogs on the extremely narrow path we often walk along. I had to pass within inches of these snarling, snapping dogs while the elderly woman clearly struggled to hang on to them. There was nowhere else for me to go without backtracking for about 4 miles to a place where we could pass at more of a distance. It wasn't a pleasant experience, especially as I had Jack in his carrier at the time. It's put me off using the carrier for dog walks in fact as if anything had kicked off he'd have been at huge risk. I have never been so glad in my life that Spen ignores dogs who kick off like that, had he reacted given that he was just inches from these dogs we'd have had a real issue. Given that this is a hugely popular dog walking area and that pretty much all dogs are off leash I can't help but wonder why on earth you'd take 1 reactive dog there at peak time let alone 6 or more! It can't have been at all enjoyable for either dogs or owner or for any unsuspecting friendly dog and owner coming across them.

I also have issue with the pack of huskies that regularly pass my house. Thankfully we hear them coming about 10 minutes before they come into sight. I don't know whether they're aggressive or just over excited but I wouldn't like to risk finding out. I've seen them dragging their owners down the street after other dogs, across roads etc. 

But as long as a dog is under control I have no problem giving it space if it needs it. Within reason anyway, I do feel it's mainly the responsibility of the owner of the reactive dog to make an effort to create the space their dog needs. I always felt it was up to me to move Rupert out of the way where possible rather than expecting the world to move around me because he had issues. All I asked was that people respected my attempts to create space and not purposely invade it with their dogs.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> I have no idea where you got the idea that my post was referring to yours?
> 
> I have never had any idea that you expected the owner to discipline their dog in any way whatsoever!
> 
> I don't know where you got that idea from?


Since you didn't quote any post to refer too I assumed it was aimed at me.... ah well never mind, perhaps you could be a little more specific in future


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> I did however have a problem with an elderly woman with at least 6 large and clearly unfriendly dogs on the extremely narrow path we often walk along. I had to pass within inches of these snarling, snapping dogs while the elderly woman clearly struggled to hang on to them. There was nowhere else for me to go without backtracking for about 4 miles to a place where we could pass at more of a distance. It wasn't a pleasant experience, especially as I had Jack in his carrier at the time. It's put me off using the carrier for dog walks in fact as if anything had kicked off he'd have been at huge risk. I have never been so glad in my life that Spen ignores dogs who kick off like that, had he reacted given that he was just inches from these dogs we'd have had a real issue. Given that this is a hugely popular dog walking area and that pretty much all dogs are off leash I can't help but wonder why on earth you'd take 1 reactive dog there at peak time let alone 6 or more! It can't have been at all enjoyable for either dogs or owner or for any unsuspecting friendly dog and owner coming across them.


Oh man, how scary. 
I'm afraid I'm one of those starting to feel less charitable about those who are obviously over-dogged like in this case. It's not an excuse to endanger those around you...


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

BlackadderUK said:


> Since you didn't quote any post to refer too I assumed it was aimed at me.... ah well never mind, perhaps you could be a little more specific in future


Well, that's a little rude. Normally, if you have misunderstood, you may like to apologise.

Perhaps you need Smokeybear to announce from fifty yards away that she isn't friendly.


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## comfycavy (Mar 3, 2013)

This thread reminds me of a man I encountered on a walk about two years ago. I was walking Lara along a path through some quiet fields, usually an ideal area for any owners of a reactive dog (which she is) and from around a corner came a man with two dogs, one was an off lead hairy lurcher - staying close to its owner - and the other a very large bull breed type. I could immediately see why the lurcher was off-lead, with both hands the man was holding the bull breed with all the strength he could muster, it was pulling, barking, lunging, everything you'd expect from a reactive dog.

I pulled Lara over as far as I could to allow them past. I watched as they went by and I felt complete and utter sympathy for the owner, as he went past he said "sorry"  the look on his face was one of sheer exhaustion, frustration and embarrassment. I simply smiled and replied "no need to apologise" because in my eyes, there wasn't. The dog was on-lead (a very strong one by the looks of it) and it was muzzled. He also kept as much distance as he could from us. I really do hope they made some progress together, because I, like many others on here, know how utterly exhausting, both physically and mentally, it can be to try and walk a reactive dog. Planning a walk with almost military precision really isn't fun...
So sure, there are some reactive dog owners who don't give a fig about their dogs behaviour but I'd say the majority of us really are trying out best and no, it doesn't always work, but these situations are never black and white and there's often more to it than what a casual observer may see.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

Sweety said:


> Perhaps you need Smokeybear to announce from fifty yards away that she isn't friendly.


He he 
That's actually not a bad idea, perhaps we should announce to each other our temperaments before posting, you know, like walking around with a resting bitch face to let people know to leave you alone?
I mean, that's why I have the siggy I do...


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Well, that's a little rude. Normally, if you have misunderstood, you may like to apologise.


Rude? Really? Well, if I misunderstood then of course I offer my apologies.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> But as long as a dog is under control I have no problem giving it space if it needs it. Within reason anyway, I do feel it's mainly the responsibility of the owner of the reactive dog to make an effort to create the space their dog needs. *I always felt it was up to me to move Rupert out of the way where possible rather than expecting the world to move around me because he had issues.* All I asked was that people respected my attempts to create space and not purposely invade it with their dogs.


This is exactly what I'm saying, I don't have a problem making space if someone is dealing with a difficult dog. I'll take mine away/take another route if needed but surely if you know you have a reactive dog then you give people chance to take these measures? Not just keep walking waiting for the inevitable to happen...


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

BlackadderUK said:


> This is exactly what I'm saying, I don't have a problem making space if someone is dealing with a difficult dog. I'll take mine away/take another route if needed but surely if you know you have a reactive dog then you give people chance to take these measures? Not just keep walking waiting for the inevitable to happen...


The inevitable being? Your dogs were on lead, the other dog was on lead. Unless a really freak accident was to happen, lead snapping for example, then there really is no real 'danger'.

And at the end of the day, I'll keep doing what works for my dog which is to walk on as quickly as possible. Although, I will create space at every available oppurtunity if I'm in a position to do so. What you think and feel is not my priority


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

ouesi said:


> He he
> That's actually not a bad idea, perhaps we should announce to each other our temperaments before posting, you know, like walking around with a resting bitch face to let people know to leave you alone?
> I mean, that's why I have the siggy I do...


My apparent resting bitch face is more startled pigeon according to a friend  What is your Sig as I have them turned off and my brain can take the assault of turning them on to look at it


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

BlackadderUK said:


> This is exactly what I'm saying, I don't have a problem making space if someone is dealing with a difficult dog. I'll take mine away/take another route if needed but surely if you know you have a reactive dog then you give people chance to take these measures? Not just keep walking waiting for the inevitable to happen...


Perhaps because most people don't take any evasive measures? In fact a lot seem to go out of their way to sabotage your attempts to create space once they realise your dog isn't friendly, some well meaning, some because they're just as*holes. It makes absolutely zero sense but I found it happened on a very regular basis. Hence why I resorted to walking in the middle of the night.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

MontyMaude said:


> My apparent resting bitch face is more startled pigeon according to a friend  What is your Sig as I have them turned off and my brain can take the assault of turning them on to look at it


I am practicing mindfulness, compassion, and loving kindness, so don't piss me off!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> He he
> That's actually not a bad idea, perhaps we should announce to each other our temperaments before posting, you know, like walking around with a resting bitch face to let people know to leave you alone?
> I mean, that's why I have the siggy I do...


I need to learn this resting bitch face, I think I must have the face of mindfulness, compassion and loving kindness instead since I seem to be a magnet for any drug addict to pour out their life story to. Either that or I need to look at a career that consists of just being a shoulder to cry on lol.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> I need to learn this resting bitch face, I think I must have the face of mindfulness, compassion and loving kindness instead since I seem to be a magnet for any drug addict to pour out their life story to. Either that or I need to look at a career that consists of just being a shoulder to cry on lol.


I don't have RBF either, but I hear it can definitely be an asset.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> What you think and feel is not my priority


Once I took on that mantra I found that I made progress much faster with Thais reactivity.

Unless my dog causes anyone else a "problem", what they think is of little concern to me


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> And at the end of the day, I'll keep doing what works for my dog which is to walk on as quickly as possible. Although, I will create space at every available oppurtunity if I'm in a position to do so. What you think and feel is not my priority


There we go, you know what's going on! I don't expect anyone to be a miracle worker or to bend over backwards, just have a bit of thought, a little common sense...


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Think I must have Resting Bitch Face.

Too many people, whom I barely know, seem to say to me "Have I annoyed you love"?


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Perhaps because most people don't take any evasive measures? In fact a lot seem to go out of their way to sabotage your attempts to create space once they realise your dog isn't friendly, some well meaning, some because they're just as*holes. It makes absolutely zero sense but I found it happened on a very regular basis. Hence why I resorted to walking in the middle of the night.


This is true. If your dog need space you can guarantee there will be someone with a dog who "everyone" loves and "if we just let them play they'll be fine" or the "all dogs love me" type invading your dog's personal space. 
I seem to find them at the vets of all places - the one place you really don't want to be socializing and sharing air with the same dogs, is where these yahoos seem to think they need to "meet" your dog. *Sigh*


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have a dog who needs space and yet other dogs will totally ignore my other 2 and make a beeline straight for him. I could understand if he was shying away when another dog approached, or cowering or even stiffening but often he is completely ignoring them and going about his usual business and yet he gets hassled far more than the others. The other day he was off in front of me, eyeing up the path ahead for squirrels when a dog ran through the collies, approached from behind and immediately started to shoulder barge him and then proceeded to put it's front paws on him (it was a smaller, bully breed). He turned round and told it off and I think there may have been fisticuffs if the owner hadn't grabbed it at that precise moment.

Serious question, why does he get all the hassle even when he isn't giving off any obvious vibes, and often doesn't even know the other dog is there? It's bloody annoying tbh as it's always him that gets singled out and he really much prefers to be left alone.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> This is true. If your dog need space you can guarantee there will be someone with a dog who "everyone" loves and "if we just let them play they'll be fine" or the "all dogs love me" type invading your dog's personal space.
> I seem to find them at the vets of all places - the one place you really don't want to be socializing and sharing air with the same dogs, is where these yahoos seem to think they need to "meet" your dog. *Sigh*


Or the "he just needs to be put in his place and then he'll be fine" types. Or the "oh mine needs to learn that not all dogs will play with him" types. The list is pretty much endless lol. And yes, the vets was a nightmare!

@Leanne77 I'm sure some dogs must have the equivalent of a kick me sign on their backs. Wolf used to get it although he was generally "attacked". Noise and slobber rather than intent but still unpleasant.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2015)

Leanne77 said:


> I have a dog who needs space and yet other dogs will totally ignore my other 2 and make a beeline straight for him. I could understand if he was shying away when another dog approached, or cowering or even stiffening but often he is completely ignoring them and going about his usual business and yet he gets hassled far more than the others. The other day he was off in front of me, eyeing up the path ahead for squirrels when a dog ran through the collies, approached from behind and immediately started to shoulder barge him and then proceeded to put it's front paws on him (it was a smaller, bully breed). He turned round and told it off and I think there may have been fisticuffs if the owner hadn't grabbed it at that precise moment.
> 
> Serious question, why does he get all the hassle even when he isn't giving off any obvious vibes, and often doesn't even know the other dog is there? It's bloody annoying tbh as it's always him that gets singled out and he really much prefers to be left alone.


I don't know, but I know what you mean about dogs totally not getting it. 
There seem to be a lot of what I call "social clod" dogs about. Dogs who run up to any and all dogs and just jump in attempting to play and interact with no thought to the other dog's signals or what the other dog is doing... Personally I blame the "socialize 'em" movement and things like yep... doggy daycare. 
IDK... to me it's just not normal dog behavior to barrel up to another dog like that, but I am seeing it more and more.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

He's never ran into any bother, never been attacked or got himself into a fight, they are all generally good at avoiding conflict even though Flynn often starts it with warning growls, stiff posture etc if he sees another dog approach but I can almost guarantee the other 2 will get totally ignored and Flynn will cop the obnoxious dog, or the boisterous one. It fecking drives me nuts! I wonder if it's because he's the biggest, so the obnoxious ones fancy a challenge, and he's always the one in the lead, in the thick of the 'fun' so the boisterous ones think he's a good candidate for entertainment. I dunno...


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

A similar thing happens to my sister's little dog @Leanne77. He's very focused on my sister and obsessed with his ball so can walk among dogs without really taking any notice and/or approaching, but yet he's always targeted by other dogs and they don't just greet and lose interest, they hound him and chase him around like he's live prey! This in turn then terrifies my sister's dog who is trying to hide behind my sister and/or air snapping which just eggs the other dogs on more. It's a shame as this resulting behaviour from other dogs has made my mum very, very, nervous of walking him in dog populated areas and very nervy in general of off lead dogs


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

It's been interesting reading all the replies on this thread and thinking about some of the dogs I have owned.

My most major 'problem' dog (quotes deliberate as I don't think she was a problem, just that she had problems), was Jodi. She was a clever sweet natured dog with us, but she lacked confidence and in order to try and boost it, she barked and growled defensively at other dogs and strangers. With other dogs she was keen to get in all the shouting and bluster first and the embarrassing times I had with her over the years would fill this forum. I took her to agility training to help boost her confidence around other dogs, it was outside and controlled well and to a large degree it helped a lot, but come back home and she was continuously terrorised by a neighbours dog who was allowed to wander and annoy everyone and in particular, Jodi. Living with a dog like this taught me an awful lot. I found that other dog walkers would continuously approach us as she was. Golden retriever therefor friendly, this would set off a lot of mad barking.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> A similar thing happens to my sister's little dog @Leanne77. He's very focused on my sister and obsessed with his ball so can walk among dogs without really taking any notice and/or approaching, but yet he's always targeted by other dogs and they don't just greet and lose interest, they hound him and chase him around like he's live prey! This in turn then terrifies my sister's dog who is trying to hide behind my sister and/or air snapping which just eggs the other dogs on more. It's a shame as this resulting behaviour from other dogs has made my mum very, very, nervous of walking him in dog populated areas and very nervy in general of off lead dogs


Flynn's way of dealing with it is to bark, and often try to chase the other dog away if his more subtle signals are ignored, it's amazing how many think it's all a big game and come back for more, which in turn escalates his behaviour. Owners are likely to let out a chuckle too, thinking it's quite amusing when in actual fact it's anything but. I cant understand how my dog being clearly stressed by their dog is anything to find funny, and how my big dog chasing their little dog doesn't worry them. It's in situations like this I show no restraint in losing my temper.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sweety said:


> Think I must have Resting Bitch Face.
> 
> Too many people, whom I barely know, seem to say to me "Have I annoyed you love"?


I have RBF, forever being told by random strangers to 'cheer up love, it might never happen' 

On the plus side it stops people approaching & making small talk


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Sorry, hit wrong button

To continue,

I was one of those desparetly trying to avoid other dog walkers (and getting strange looks) because my dog was frankly anti social, and I wanted to try and keep her as calm as possible. I became an expert at finding quiet places and scanning the horizon for approaching people.

New dog, same breed, different temperament.
Isla is the total opposite of Jodi, which is a huge relief to us. She is a little over friendly with other dogs, hasn't got to the stage of being dog neutral although I can see signs of it happening. Her main saving grace is that she greets quietly, just sniffing noses, which has relaxed some dogs which is gratifying to see. However I have noticed that dogs that shout at her are begining to have an effect on her. She hasn't a nasty bone in her body and if she is barked at aggressively or chased in a scary way, then she is becoming frightened and cowers or runs for it. 
The problem more these days is that some people are happy to allow their unfriendly dogs off the lead scaring other dogs. Some dogs are just scared and do nothing, but others learn to retaliate and to expect trouble, which is what happened to Jodi years ago.

Having had dogs on both sides of the spectrum, I can see both sides of the discussion, but until you've actually been there yourselves it can be difficult to understand why people with a controlled antisocial dogs need to share a footpath with the rest of the world.

Sorry this post has been split. If anyone is still reading, I hope it hasn't been to bad


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I brought in a ten month old bitch who wasn't socialised and would literally do back flips and scream when she saw other dogs out walking, she's not aggressive, she is also now very good with other dogs, we built up walking her in places we might encounter other dogs, some times she flipped most she was fine. I wanted her to know that meeting other dogs was fine, that she didn't need to be scared, and we wanted to show her we were not stressed, so certainly wasn't going to start shouting at people to tell them she wasn't friendly or wasn't good with other dogs and they should give us a wide berth... Because she is friendly and she is good with other dogs. I struggled with the looks, the tuts the head shakes of some that I was so inconsiderate to walk my on lead "obviously" aggressive Rottweiler near their perfect dogs. Yet oddly still managed to have an entire male Rottweiler who ignored her kicking off, and ignored if another dog reacted........ Maybe teach your dog that dogs kicking off are nothing they have to concern themselves with? No need for them to worry or feel the need to react, because you have the situation under control, and your dog like you needs to just be calm and carry on regardless. Oh and I am currently looking after a Pug who kicks off at a eye blink, I'd be your worst nightmare, as I wouldn't shout to tell you nor stop to have a chitchat and explain why he is kicking off, I would be working on him....


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

I really struggled with the first reactive dog I looked after. My breakthrough came after I was advised to keep my attention on him at all times no matter what or who was happening around us. I worked very hard at teaching him to focus on me by treating him more or less continuously before he started reacting and keeping it up until we were far enough away from the trigger for him to relax. This meant if a dog was approaching I never took my eyes off my dog, I did not pay any attention to other owners, just kept looking at my dog and holding his attention while moving on. I guess some people thought me rude as it did not always work at first and I still had a reacting dog but bit by bit it started working.

I have another one now and I am afraid I do my best to keep her attention and move away from other dogs as needed but I have stopped stressing when things do not go to plan. If a dog runs at us I put a hand inside her collar so she cannot lunge and pull me over, I stay quiet, move her on and give the other owners a cheery greeting. Life is too short to get stressed continuously. She will get better and in the meantime I will not become a nervous wreck. I have no idea why other people do the things they do and could not really care less nowadays.

Ouesi, I can see where you are coming from re. doggy day care but I was surprised by your opinion as one of my ex-fosters goes to DDC one day a week and it seems to have turned him from a diffident dog who needed a bit more socialisation into a calm unflappable individual who gets on with all dogs. Admittedly it is a fantastically well-staffed and organised place which costs an arm and a leg.


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## Ck&Milly (Nov 22, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> e normally I would roll my eyes and ignore this thread but after I had a terrier blow his owners recall, and run clean up to my ON LEAD dog yesterday - meaning he had to deal with the stress of being man


I agree with this completely, I have encountered horrid owners with dogs that have been completely out of control and had to pick Milly up or walk away quickly while being followed and the owner screaming with no luck.

I never allow Milly to approach a dog on a lead (and off!) without asking the owner first. My trainer has always said if you see someone walking at the edge of the field or trying to avoid others, make it easy and don't go near them, makes sense for others but when Milly was very nervous we would walk and actively avoid people but they would still come up and not stop their dog.

I'm ranting...sorry!


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## Anneboxermad (Dec 27, 2015)

I have had the other side to this. I used to own a gsd who hated on site other dogs, I used to walk him at hours I thought no one else would be around. He only had a run on a long training lead. Muzzle on the amount of people who used to let there dogs run up to myne and when I said can you please take your dog away I'd get its a public place maybe walk it after dark


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Why are people with badly behaved dogs?

Because she keeps following me. Keep leaving her, but just can't seem to shake her off. 


Yeah, I'm one with the badly behaved dog (but she is getting better). She's always on lead though. And I do tend to call over to other owners as we approach explaining her issues, asking if their dog would be unsettled by it (excitement, not aggression), asking if they're ok to meet if she stays calm, etc, etc 

My husband laughs at my spiel - you get adept at getting a lot of info out fast when you repeat it half a dozen times a day!! 

I keep her on the far side of me. If she stays calm and owner gives permission she can meet the other dog and she's happy. She can however throw me on occasion, regress a little, and get frustrated and noisy fast. She very much looks like a bad dog. 

I do try to apologise but I probably just sound like one of those useless, ineffectual owners but truth is I'm just saying the first pleasantry that comes in my head. I'm usually so embarrassed, deflated, demoralised and sometimes close to tears, it's all I can muster.

I do sympathise with the OP though. Although a lot of us are doing our best, I don't doubt that some owners don't try.


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## Anneboxermad (Dec 27, 2015)

I 


MiffyMoo said:


> That does make sense. The owner tells me that they are both very good at disappearing off for a snooze (playing is hard work!) and totally ignoring anyone who want to play. I think Dex has had plenty of practise at this with Lola; she's only 1(ish, we don't really know), so thinks that twitching your toe is an invitation to play.


I think we do what we have to work and have pets, I have in the past had someone pop in to let my dog out and I've allso took her to doggy day care neither worked. She was happy going for a early walk and sleeping


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I must be one of the most anti social dog walkers on the planet! I don't like or encourage my dogs to meet other dogs and I don't like other dogs, particularly those off lead, to meet mine. Fortunately neither of mine are interested in other dogs so it's fairly easy, although Gwylim is fascinated by security dogs who rush along fences, barking like maniacs He has to stop and watch them and will bounce up and down like a yo-yo until Georgina doing her big sister act, steps in and hurries him on!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Anneboxermad said:


> I
> 
> I think we do what we have to work and have pets, I have in the past had someone pop in to let my dog out and I've allso took her to doggy day care neither worked. She was happy going for a early walk and sleeping


Life would be so much easier if this were the case. We're working on the SA and Dex is so much better, but I can't vouch for leaving him for long periods of time. So far we have managed about 5 minutes and he's fine when I return (in fact, totally ignored me), but Lola behaved as if I had been gone for a month. Unfortunately the walls in my house are paper thin and my next door neighbour works from home, so as soon as they get upset they start howling, and the neighbour goes crazy


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I am confused as to why there are so many 'reactive' dogs around. I seldom walk where there are other dogs but I used to 4 times a day every day and never met a nasty or out of control dog. What is happening nowadays. Why are there so many dogs that behave in what most people would consider a totally inappropriate way. 

Toffee is the first dog I have ever had that has behaved inappropriately round other dogs, just loony not aggressive but obviously that is just as inappropriate. I have probably only met other dogs a couple of times a year but it is still not on for her to behave like that - so yes, I have corrected her for the behaviour as well as spending a lot of time with her sitting beside me watching me instead of the other dog. How else will she know the right way to behave. She is 5 now and is a milliion times better after about 6 very well spread out sessions - so why is it impossible to train a dog that is walked regularly. I do try and avoid other dogs as I want to be able to enjoy walking her and not have to concentrate the whole time but the other day I was giving them a quick run in a public walking place. Someone was heading down to the side of us with a ball launcher and a labrador and Toffee did take off towards it but she recalled half way there which amazed me.

I am afraid I am definitely one of these people who glare (internally at least) when I see a dog lunging around on the end of the lead. What misery for both dog and owner as well as everyone who has to walk past it. If it is not improving in a few sessions the method you are using is not working - but it is fairly obvious with most people they are just trying to control their lunging dog, not doing anything proactive to improve things.

No doubt I will be slated for giving my true opinion but I will never get my head round all these poor problem dogs.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

What did your corrections entail @Blitz?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I agree with Blitz on this, really.

I see several local people (from a distance now ) who really do just tolerate the behaviour rather than deal with it. Their walks are clearly stressful and unpleasant for their dog added to their own embarrassment.

One lady actually said she thinks her terrier is scared of other dogs. Then proceeds to pour cold water on his head if he kicks off! She walks him on a long line so he can't attack other dogs. She had him from a pup, and apparently her last dog was exactly the same! 

There seems to be many more rescue dogs these days - certainly we have lots of ex-racing greyhounds round here and they often don't tolerate other dogs. Some people seem to think the dog will understand them when they say "its ok, don't worry". It takes more than that.

I also think far too many people are of the mind that all dogs need to socialise with every other dog and the best way of dealing with a reticent dog is to chuck it into the group, rather than teach it to not be worried, which of course takes longer.

The woman with the terrier suddenly seems to avoid the playing field (often full of marauding loose dogs) and sticks to pavement walking, avoiding getting close to other dogs and they both seem much happier and calmer


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I am confused as to why there are so many 'reactive' dogs around. I seldom walk where there are other dogs but I used to 4 times a day every day and never met a nasty or out of control dog. What is happening nowadays. Why are there so many dogs that behave in what most people would consider a totally inappropriate way.


Personally I think the "socialise your dog" thing has a lot to do with it. People see "socialisation" as their dog running riot with other dogs which can lead to problems. You get dogs like Spen who firmly believe all dogs are their new best friend and get stupidly over excited and desperate to meet. And then you get dogs who are intimidated by this sort of "socialisation" and who become defensive and reactive. I also find dogs like Spen who aren't kept under control tend to leave behind a trail of frightened, stressed dogs in their wake who tend to go on to become defensive and reactive.

Puppy parties are all the rage and sadly a lot consist of just letting the pups play. The bolder ones learn to be bullies, the shy ones learn that other dogs are scary. There are also a lot more dogs around now than there were when I had Shadow and Wolf and expectations are different. Back then it was accepted that sometimes dogs just wouldn't get on, that some dogs weren't hugely sociable, that old dogs or dogs with injuries or medical conditions needed a bit of consideration, it was expected that your dog be under control. These days it seems that most dogs are running riot with their owners not really giving a monkeys what they're doing and if people don't want to be pestered by random dogs then they just shouldn't be in that area.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

When I first started using the local nature reserve with Heidi as a pup someone said to me.
"You will find dogs' are like their owners. Confrontational dog, confrontational owner - happy go lucky dog, happy go lucky owner."
That was 6 years ago and I wish I could remember who inflicted those wise words on me


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

One thing I've noticed since owning dogs in Hungary, is that in the towns and cities owners have much better control over their dogs, whether they be on or off lead. I'll often see off lead dogs either trotting by the side of their owner, or running slightly ahead along busy pavements, or sitting quietly outside the supermarket waiting whilst the owner is inside. Mind you in the residential areas, every dog will bark as you pass its property, which is something Hungarians expect a dog to do. 

It seems to be an unwritten law when at the vets or training owners concentrate on their own dogs and ignore the rest! With a few exceptions dogs seem to be so much more relaxed than their UK counterparts appear to be from what I read on forums.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> I am confused as to why there are so many 'reactive' dogs around. I seldom walk where there are other dogs but I used to 4 times a day every day and never met a nasty or out of control dog. What is happening nowadays. Why are there so many dogs that behave in what most people would consider a totally inappropriate way.
> 
> Toffee is the first dog I have ever had that has behaved inappropriately round other dogs, just loony not aggressive but obviously that is just as inappropriate. I have probably only met other dogs a couple of times a year but it is still not on for her to behave like that - so yes, I have corrected her for the behaviour as well as spending a lot of time with her sitting beside me watching me instead of the other dog. How else will she know the right way to behave. She is 5 now and is a milliion times better after about 6 very well spread out sessions - so why is it impossible to train a dog that is walked regularly. I do try and avoid other dogs as I want to be able to enjoy walking her and not have to concentrate the whole time but the other day I was giving them a quick run in a public walking place. Someone was heading down to the side of us with a ball launcher and a labrador and Toffee did take off towards it but she recalled half way there which amazed me.
> 
> ...


I think life is different in general, family life, home life, work life balance, lack of space for humans and dogs, diet/nutrition, why people have dogs and what they do with them, puppy farming/breeding by people who don't care about temperament etc etc. There are a lot of rescue dogs now that perhaps would have been put to sleep years ago or just wouldn't have been born in the first place. We also have internet forums and social media so every incident gets discussed and picked over whereas in the past we probably would have shrugged and moved on. Sometimes I read outraged posts on here and think really? so what? what some people call a dog attack in years gone by we would have called a scuffle. I've had dogs for 35 years now and find it has got harder and more confusing as the years have gone by rather than easier as there is just so much more information and advice and at times it can be hard to know who is right and whether todays "experts" will be tomorrows "CM". I think in years gone by people just wouldn't have spent the money on expensive food for their dogs and often dogs lived outside at least part of the day and had a job to do whereas these days we have a lot of very well fed dogs, living in warm houses with the best of everything provided and not much to actually do.

@Mum2Heidi that doesn't apply here, I'm fairly confrontational but none of my dogs are - Indie is probably the most happy go lucky dog I know - the vet recently said she is the friendliest rottie she has ever met whereas me and OH are anti social old grumps


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I know my yorkie is reactive out of fear. Although I've always tried my best to block off lead dogs I haven't been totally successful with the extremely persistent ones. I wish I'd picked her up sooner in those cases, but worried this would cause a fearful dog as well.

She only reacts when a dog gets in her space. I do wonder what sort of owner thinks it is acceptable to allow an off lead dog to bother an on lead 4kg one. Even when I've moved out of the way I've had people with on lead dogs approach. 

I took her back to training and it has really helped. Now she avoids any contact with dogs and as soon as I see one she moves to the side away from them. I also pick her up quicker than I would have done if needed. As a result she is miles more relaxed. She actively ignores other dogs and even with the trainer's dog will turn her head away as if he doesn't exist.

My other dog is perfectly fine and he has been ragged by an off lead dog that ran to get him and nipped by another dog at a different training class. As a result I do think that the dog's temperament can make a difference.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I wonder if the "happy go lucky" owner with the "happy go lucky dog" could sometimes be described as "can't be ar*ed owner" and "pain in the ar*e dog" ! 

Maybe the confrontational owner has good cause 

I *could* be described as confrontational, my dog most definitely could not!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Mum2Heidi said:


> When I first started using the local nature reserve with Heidi as a pup someone said to me.
> "You will find dogs' are like their owners. Confrontational dog, confrontational owner - happy go lucky dog, happy go lucky owner."
> That was 6 years ago and I wish I could remember who inflicted those wise words on me


I must be a pretty conflicted owner then...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I am confrontational my dogs not in the slightest, very happy go lucky dogs.

I am one of those people who will have words with those who glare, tut and shake heads! We had a few months of KT reacting now she doesn't, and if fellow dog walkers were put out by it tough shit! We put up with enough free running "friendly" dogs that other owners would just have to get over themselves for the few minutes it took to get past them, given most were fair weather dog walkers we'd not see them again when the weather turned.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Mum2Heidi said:


> When I first started using the local nature reserve with Heidi as a pup someone said to me.
> "You will find dogs' are like their owners. Confrontational dog, confrontational owner - happy go lucky dog, happy go lucky owner."
> That was 6 years ago and I wish I could remember who inflicted those wise words on me


I'm not confrontational at all, I have the most confrontational dog I've ever met, lol.

As for why you get more...when I was a child, dogs were taken round the back and shot by a farmer if they were causing problems, that tends not to happen anymore.


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## Winter1961 (Dec 22, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> I don't blame you, especially when you are doing your best to prevent such meetings! Loose dogs are a particular pain because there is always that chance of you not being able to block them, whilst trying to keep your dog calm and non-reactive - against the odds?
> 
> I don't understand the ones I pass on opposite sides of the lane (no way of avoiding) who have clearly given up (or perhaps never tried) to work on the dog's issues but simply allow them to go mental on the end of the lead! This is often the case with small dogs because they can manage to hold them back long enough to go past.
> 
> Difficult for even the most friendly, chilled out dog to ignore


SO with you on that one! There's a man near me who has a couple of Yorkshire terrorists (I use the 'terrorists' deliberately in the case of these particular two). Doesn't matter how far away it is, if they so much as see another dog, all hell breaks loose. They lunge, snarl, scream and generally throw tantrums. What really gets me about this guy is that he doesn't even try to walk his dogs on or distract them, he just stands there with them straining at the ends of their leads while everyone else has to manage their own dogs. No one ever says anything, but I can't help thinking that if it was Rotties, or Staffs, or GSDs he had, plenty would be said! But then again, he'd have been dragged flat on his face ages ago and might have done something about their behaviour....


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Blitz asked why there are so many reactive dogs. Can't speak for anyone else, just my own. 

Willow had never been socialised by her previous owner. Never had a lead. Got for a pensioner to keep in as a 'wee house dog' - no training done because they didn't think that was necessary for a small house dog. Rolled up newspaper would do. And then discovered the problem with that....found her hard to handle and wanted rid. Willow passed around various friends and family during which time she was attacked (so I'm told) by resident dogs.

I think Gumtree and the like make it far too easy for people to get a dog on a whim, not have a clue, not put in the work and then - because they haven't put in the work - can't cope (with what they've created) and pass a dog with problems on to someone else.

I've tried my best (but it still falls short, I know that) but she doesn't go batsh*t when she sees stuff on walks. She's now calm with everything, bar dogs. Not barking or lunging anymore but she does pull, appears excited.

I KNOW I should have her further on than that by now but a few things have made it hard. 

TRAINER - I need a good trainer. I would feel much more confident dealing with the pulling, without exacerbating the excitement/frustration, if I knew once and for all what to do. 

There are no good trainers near me. I did manage to get 2 who claimed they were reward based but they weren't. In hindsight, I know they flooded her. They were at a loss to stop her pulling so told me it was better than barking (!) Wonderful! 

They wanted me to stamp my foot, shout, snap her lead, and so on and so forth. I told them the was the last thing she needed and left. She was worse for awhile after that. There's no one else. (Although I have found someone further afield who *looks* promising so looking forward to contacting her in NY.)

OTHER DOGS - I would ideally like to keep her at a distance from other dogs and treat her as we gradually get closer and desensitise her but that's proved impossible on our walks around here. It's either road walking where the other dog is unavoidable and just too close or the forests/parks where every other dog is off lead with owners letting roam around freely and approach us. If I shoo it or try to take us away she really reacts. It's as though I've confirmed it IS something to panic about (?) Tried going out at stupid o'clock but there are still dogs! A trainer might help me with controlling the environment.

ME - I should have her further forward by now. It's all me. Those things ^^^ don't help but a better trainer would have brought her on further by now. Because it never works the way I want - gradual desensitisation - I've basically just been 'managing' her as we pass dogs. I know that's letting her down but I feel a bit overwhelmed and I'm scared to push her to the next step in case her excitement escalates into that mortifying bark again so we just try pass as quickly and fuss free as poss. I know it's me. But I'm not happy at leaving it at this stage. I want to get her that she's comfortable or at least non reactive. I just need to stop being a wuss and tackle it.

I'm sorry for my waffling here but tbh I try to put so much detail in the hope of some advice or to correct me. Plus, I'm a natural waffler. Fingers crossed for this trainer in NY.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2015)

I’d rather deal with a dog who hasn’t been socialized at all than a dog who has been socialized badly to the point of creating issues. 
No socialization is a fairly easy fix once you have a decent relationship going with the dog. Bad socialization sometimes can’t be undone. 

One of the dogs I’ve had with the absolute best dog skills was a dog who had run feral for months that we know of (probably years). 
Feral dogs aren’t going to make it if they’re nursing wounds from fights or wasting energy on reactivity towards other dogs. This dog had obviously interacted with other dogs, like I said, he had amazing skills. Knew how to calm dogs who needed to be calmed, knew how to tell dogs to back off without resorting to big displays, and was just about perfect with other dogs in every way. He did try to mount Breez when he first came and she put a stop to that right away, and he took the correction like a gentleman 

I think leash laws and keeping dogs contained has hurt their abilities to learn through experience how to “be” with other dogs. Obviously I don’t want to see a return to dogs running loose everywhere getting hit by cars and shot by farmers, but I do think we need to reevaluate our beliefs on how dogs need to socialize. If you watch feral dogs and the latchkey dogs of decades ago, they don’t go running up to other dogs, they don’t go out of their way to interact with other dogs. They acknowledge each other and move on. Dogs who are friends might play, (or tag team and go hunt livestock together), but for the most part there is very little actual interaction other than the human equivalent of a nod or a slight wave from a distance. 
This idea that dogs need to interact with other dogs, and play in groups (dogs don’t really play in groups) is not realistic and is teaching dogs inappropriate expectations for their fellow canines.


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

I see two sides to this, from the side of somebody with one of those dogs that lunge and snarl - it's easy to say the owner of the "problem" dog should make space, but at the beginning Shadow would have seen a dog at the opposite end of the next field and turned into a wreck, when walking to the vets across the road would have to do, and yes he would make a racket, pull at the lead because that wasn't enough space for him to feel comfortable. When he is at that point, no amount of commands are going to work, it literally is just drag him past on a short lead or wait for the other dog and owner to move along. However he is on lead and muzzled, there is no chance of causing physical damage. I understand that there is a chance of causing mental damage to the dog on the receiving end (how do you think my dog came to behave the way he does in the first place?) I try my best to minimise the chance of my dog having an impact on anyone else - through training, avoiding busy times (not always possible, walking to the vets for example), and generally just making sure our walks are away from the general public as it is less stressful for him, me and anybody else we meet.

Training cannot always cure the issue 100 percent, doesn't mean it isn't working. As I said, at the beginning Shadow would have turned into a wreck if there was a dog on the horizon, now after a lot of work he can calmly focus on me while we pass a dog across the road - tight spaces are still guaranteed to make him kick off though. The exception is puppies - he likes puppies, they are not a threat, so on the odd occasion we do come across a puppy it's lovely when the owner asks, why is your dog wearing a muzzle? Is he ok to pass the pup? And I can say, he is scared of adult dogs, but he is very gentle with pups, and sometimes he may get a quick hello before we move on, a great positive experience for him. People being understanding is also how he has made friends with a lovely calm greyhound at our local woods, despite the fact that he has been at attacked by one before. The owner, bless him, saw him kick off once, and offered us to walk with him at a safe distance, he said he could warn us of approaching dogs as it was unusually busy that day, and we just carried on meeting up on walks after that - the distance closed gradually, and now they will walk side by side having a plod along with the occasional greeting and even a few short bursts of play - of course no dog walker is expected to offer that sort of help to us at all. 

From the people on the receiving end, if you haven't experienced it with your own dog I'm sure it can sometimes look like the owner is doing nothing - they probably are, it's just useless training a dog that is so over threshold it can focus on nothing. 

Blitz asked why there are so many dogs with these problems and I think it has been answered well - these days a lot of us decide to keep them rather than shoot them - I am not convinced that keeping the dog is an option everyone should take - if there is no avoiding the things that cause fear and the dog is having to be in contact with that constantly then is it really fair? But I do think we need to give dogs a chance to get over that fear before deciding they are not suitable pet dogs - Shadow is very loving and sweet despite the offputting behaviour he can show when pushed.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I'd rather deal with a dog who hasn't been socialized at all than a dog who has been socialized badly to the point of creating issues.
> No socialization is a fairly easy fix once you have a decent relationship going with the dog. Bad socialization sometimes can't be undone.
> 
> One of the dogs I've had with the absolute best dog skills was a dog who had run feral for months that we know of (probably years).
> ...


I think there's a lot of truth in what you say. I live in a village where there are around 20 dogs all whom are intact males, apart from Georgina and Szuszi both of whom are spayed. All the dogs except my two are let out each morning to roam at will, only going home in the evening. They all know each other and all get on together, despite being a mix of breeds and ages. In the 8 years I've lived here I've never witnessed any aggression amongst them and only know of one case of a dog being PTS due to him being HA.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

I have an anxious little dog who reacts very badly to any other dog coming near her - on or off lead (in fact, I have stopped letting her off lead because another dog approaching her will freak her out so much she forgets all her recall training and heads full pelt for the nearest exit).

We have tried everything over the last couple of years since she arrived in the UK (and have not given up straight away on anything), but we are resigned to the fact that she will always be anxious with most other dogs.

So now we just do all we can to make her walks as happy and relaxed as possible.

That means going to parts of the park where other dogs rarely go, but most importantly, having her favourite ball with us at all times.
If Sophie has her eye on the ball and is waiting for me to throw it, she will walk past most other dogs without even acknowledging them.

Of course, this leads to problems of their own, because she is very possessive about her ball if any dog approaches to play, but it's far, far better than having her twitching and anxious at the end of the lead because another dog is there in the distance.

(Doesn't work so well in public places though [and she has to go to them now and again], as it's not particularly welcome to throw a ball in a crowded place)

As to talking to other dog owners about Sophie - I usually prefer to keep my distance, although I will say 'she's not very sociable' (or words to that extent) if people insist on bringing their dogs near. It usually works....

But unless they are completely dense, any other dog owner can see that I am doing all I can to stop Sophie reacting badly and therefore it would be best to keep their distance.
It's just that some people seem to think they know her better than I do....


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I am confused as to why there are so many 'reactive' dogs around. I seldom walk where there are other dogs but I used to 4 times a day every day and never met a nasty or out of control dog. What is happening nowadays. Why are there so many dogs that behave in what most people would consider a totally inappropriate way.
> 
> Toffee is the first dog I have ever had that has behaved inappropriately round other dogs, just loony not aggressive but obviously that is just as inappropriate. I have probably only met other dogs a couple of times a year but it is still not on for her to behave like that - so yes, I have corrected her for the behaviour as well as spending a lot of time with her sitting beside me watching me instead of the other dog. How else will she know the right way to behave. She is 5 now and is a milliion times better after about 6 very well spread out sessions - so why is it impossible to train a dog that is walked regularly. I do try and avoid other dogs as I want to be able to enjoy walking her and not have to concentrate the whole time but the other day I was giving them a quick run in a public walking place. Someone was heading down to the side of us with a ball launcher and a labrador and Toffee did take off towards it but she recalled half way there which amazed me.
> 
> ...


2 reasons Imo.
1. Dogs with behaviours issues - back in the day, if they couldn't be "fixed" in a matter of minutes were put down. Now many folk attempt to rehab, or manage them
2. The owners of these dogs would not be walking where you do, in high density dog areas. My village is full of nicely behaved dogs, you would NEVER, catch me walking my dog through my village, potentially unpleasant for all.

If you really believe that it only takes 2-3 training sessions to "remove" a truely ingrained " bad" behaviour with your chosen method, then well words fail me......


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Winter1961 said:


> SO with you on that one! There's a man near me who has a couple of Yorkshire terrorists (I use the 'terrorists' deliberately in the case of these particular two). Doesn't matter how far away it is, if they so much as see another dog, all hell breaks loose. They lunge, snarl, scream and generally throw tantrums. What really gets me about this guy is that he doesn't even try to walk his dogs on or distract them, he just stands there with them straining at the ends of their leads while everyone else has to manage their own dogs. No one ever says anything, but I can't help thinking that if it was Rotties, or Staffs, or GSDs he had, plenty would be said! But then again, he'd have been dragged flat on his face ages ago and might have done something about their behaviour....


There's definitely something in the big dog, small dog thing. We're on the other end. Willow is our first dog who could be considered 'small, cute and fluffy' - always had big labs or big mongrel brutes (beautiful to us!). I daresay people would not have been so forgiving had they acted as Willow has.

People always listened when we told them how to act around them - turn your back, ignore til she settles, etc...

With Willow they think they know better and fuss her regardless. People's forgiveness at her littleness has proved a blessing and a curse. When we're training her and telling people what to do they ignore us and say 'Naww, she's fine' and encourage her to jump up even when we're encouraging to settle or sit. She knows not jump up on us but visitors encourage it. I bet they'd listen to me if I had husky putting their paws around their neck!!

Same on walks. Teaching Willow to not pull in excitement toward another dog is hindered by owners calling her forward and fussing her or letting their dog meet the 'little friendly dog' before I've had a chance to settle her. So she ends up getting what she wants while pulling! No way they'd be so enamoured by a big friendly dog pulling toward them in excitement.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Mum2Heidi said:


> When I first started using the local nature reserve with Heidi as a pup someone said to me.
> "You will find dogs' are like their owners. Confrontational dog, confrontational owner - happy go lucky dog, happy go lucky owner."
> That was 6 years ago and I wish I could remember who inflicted those wise words on me


I partly agree with you. Often the same owner has the same problem with dog after dog so they must be doing something wrong without realising it.



tabulahrasa said:


> I'm not confrontational at all, I have the most confrontational dog I've ever met, lol.
> 
> As for why you get more...when I was a child, dogs were taken round the back and shot by a farmer if they were causing problems, that tends not to happen anymore.


I think people were far quicker to have a dog put down that was not suitable living as a pet - and was that wrong, I dont think so.



catpud said:


> Blitz asked why there are so many dogs with these problems and I think it has been answered well - these days a lot of us decide to keep them rather than shoot them - I am not convinced that keeping the dog is an option everyone should take - if there is no avoiding the things that cause fear and the dog is having to be in contact with that constantly then is it really fair? But I do think we need to give dogs a chance to get over that fear before deciding they are not suitable pet dogs - Shadow is very loving and sweet despite the offputting behaviour he can show when pushed.


You are right that they need a chance to get over that fear but I also think you are right that it is not an option that everyone should take. Is it fair for a dog to be in a constant state of distress and often to be passed from home to home getting more and more confused.



Lexiedhb said:


> 2 reasons Imo.
> 1. Dogs with behaviours issues - back in the day, if they couldn't be "fixed" in a matter of minutes were put down. Now many folk attempt to rehab, or manage them
> 2. The owners of these dogs would not be walking where you do, in high density dog areas. My village is full of nicely behaved dogs, you would NEVER, catch me walking my dog through my village, potentially unpleasant for all.
> 
> If you really believe that it only takes 2-3 training sessions to "remove" a truely ingrained " bad" behaviour with your chosen method, then well words fail me......


Apart from rescue dogs (which are the minority) then the bad behaviour should not be ingrained. If your dog is pulling on the lead whose fault is it. If it is stressed going by other dogs whose fault is it. It is not ingrained initially, it has just been allowed to get that way by either wrong training or ignoring.

I forgot to quote someone that asked what I did to correct Toffee. I do believe in using the lead for corrections. The merest tweak with most dogs suffices. You should know your dog and know what it takes. Voice correction too. But most importantly praise when the correction works and if it has to be constantly repeated it is being done wrong for that dog. I know what I would prefer if I was a dog. I would much prefer a firm clear correction with praise when I responded than constantly being stressed out by being allowed to lunge on the end of the lead. Which is why it works in a very few sessions or you have done it wrong and are wasting your time and upsetting your dog.
With a dog that is nervous or aggressive rather than over friendly I would be much more pro active with my training and it is one of the few times I would use treats (as I am not a user of them). I would keep an eagle eye out for other dogs and as soon as I spotted one and before my dog had really noticed I would be giving the dog a wonderful time with a toy or treats and a good game so that eventually another dog would mean great fun rather than being choked half to death and stressed and worried out of its mind.

I was thinking about when I used to be a more 'normal' dog owner. When I walked my dogs they never interacted with other dogs. On the odd occasion another dog did come up to them out of control I put mine in a quick down so that the owner could retrieve their dog - and no owner seemed to let their dog run riot on purpose. At classes dogs stuck with their owners, there was no play time, they were not interested in other dogs and most classes were concentrating on teaching the dogs to ignore each other. If you were out for a walk with a group of friends the dogs barely interacted, they just got on with their walk. Dogs that were not particularly keen on other dogs were just kept out of the way and no one was really aware there was a problem. But then most people showed consideration for each other and most children were brought up with good manners and some discipline so I suppose it is not surprising that things have changed in the dog world too. Very very sad from the dogs point of view as well as the owners that are struggling because they have no idea how to train a dog and think they must never correct it. Also very sad as dogs are being banned from more and more places because they do not know how to behave in a public place.

It would be interesting to know how many of the people with 'problem' dogs (not dogs newly from rescue) teach their children good old fashioned manners because I see no difference with a well brought up child and a well brought up dog except we always have ultimate control over the dog, the child grows up and does its own thing! And some children are far harder to 'train' than others as with dogs or horses or whatever other species you have.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Mum2Heidi said:


> When I first started using the local nature reserve with Heidi as a pup someone said to me.
> "You will find dogs' are like their owners. Confrontational dog, confrontational owner - happy go lucky dog, happy go lucky owner."
> That was 6 years ago and I wish I could remember who inflicted those wise words on me


Oh the old 'reinforcing fear' chestnut.
Not as wise as you think I'm afraid! In fact it's a rather ignorant chestnut.



Sarah1983 said:


> I must be a pretty conflicted owner then...


One of my dogs is petrified of new dogs, yet I am not- I love dogs.

We must be an anomaly, then?!

Or maybe, I'm fortunate enough not to have been rushed and bitten by a group of dogs or munched every time the phone rang.

Who knows?! One of the world's unsolved mysteries....


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

*There but the grace of god, go I.
*
I get sick of these threads...they always turn into a way of making people that keep reactive/aggressive dogs feel like they don't do enough/aren't good enough/their dogs shouldn't be alive


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> oh I dunno I have one of these "problem" dogs you hate so much, he does put on quite an impressive show with strange dogs,he is always on lead . Why is it those with friendly " well behaved" dogs cant show some bloody consideration to those who might be struggling with theirs, like giving them some space, keeping their dogs away - after all its much easier for you and your " well behaved" dog.
> See normally I would roll my eyes and ignore this thread but after I had a terrier blow his owners recall, and run clean up to my ON LEAD dog yesterday - meaning he had to deal with the stress of being manhandled, instead of our usual - turn and walk away ( other dog would have followed) I feel the need for a small rant


I hear you  May I also rant too?

I walked Molly this morning and she's fine with dogs she knows, good as gold and you'd never know she was a 'problem dog'. This morning we see two dogs that we both know and I haven't seen the owner for months as she's been in poor health. We're having a quiet chat in a well placed area as she knows Molly is recovering reactive but I ended up doing a crab like impression as a stranger comes across with his dog to say hello. Despite all my efforts - asking him to give us space ('oh my dog is so friendly' says he breezily, 'your dog will be fine' Oh really?!) he continues marching at us and then thinks I'm weird for moving Molly away. It was only that I was doing my utmost to be calm and nice for Molly's benefit so she'd remain under threshold that we got away with it. But apparently he knew that anyway. I left our friend telling him what for on my behalf!

I wish other dog owners would listen and respect what someone else is saying about their own dog.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> *There but the grace of god, go I.
> *
> I get sick of these threads...they always turn into a way of making people that keep reactive/aggressive dogs feel like they don't do enough/aren't good enough/their dogs shouldn't be alive


I'd never be glad that my dog is reactive but when I read some of the replies from those who have perfect dogs, I realise that I am lucky to know some epic dog owners who are so wonderfully patient and generous because of knowing, experiencing and owing reactive dogs. This group of owners inspire me far more.

Me and Molly are too important and amazing to feel anything less than brilliant at our efforts . Same goes for you and gorgeous Thai and many others on here.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2015)

Why does it have to be either or?

Either you have a reactive dog and you’re part of the “in” club who knows those struggles, or you have a “perfect” dog and you have no clue?
Either you have a well behaved dog (and well behaved children too apparently) and thus have your act together, or you’re a reactive mess and so your dog is too. 

Why can’t we just be normal, diverse, complex humans doing the best we can with our normal, diverse, complex dogs?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

MollySmith said:


> I hear you  May I also rant too?
> 
> I walked Molly this morning and she's fine with dogs she knows, good as gold and you'd never know she was a 'problem dog'. This morning we see two dogs that we both know and I haven't seen the owner for months as she's been in poor health. We're having a quiet chat in a well placed area as she knows Molly is recovering reactive but I ended up doing a crab like impression as a stranger comes across with his dog to say hello. Despite all my efforts - asking him to give us space ('oh my dog is so friendly' says he breezily, 'your dog will be fine' Oh really?!) he continues marching at us and then thinks I'm weird for moving Molly away. It was only that I was doing my utmost to be calm and nice for Molly's benefit so she'd remain under threshold that we got away with it. But apparently he knew that anyway. I left our friend telling him what for on my behalf!
> 
> I wish other dog owners would listen and respect what someone else is saying about their own dog.


It's so nice when people step in to help. I had this a few weeks ago, when a guy kept on trying to pat Lola. Given her past, she is very wary of strange men, but is slowly getting better. Despite me constantly telling him to leave her alone and her hiding behind me (he kept following us, I suspect he was drunk or on something else) he just wouldn't give up. Eventually a girl, who was on her phone turned round and gave him such an ear bashing. All I could do was give her a grateful "thank you" and flee


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Tut don't you know either you kick, check poke them in to submission so the dog is more terrified of you than anything else or shoot them, after all if your dog has issues then you are obviously a shit owner who does nothing. If your dog has no issues you are obviously a perfect owner ...


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Why does it have to be either or?
> 
> Either you have a reactive dog and you're part of the "in" club who knows those struggles, or you have a "perfect" dog and you have no clue?
> Either you have a well behaved dog (and well behaved children too apparently) and thus have your act together, or you're a reactive mess and so your dog is too.
> ...


Quite. And cant we all just have a bit of empathy, and consideration for one another and not judge (us to be a poor owner because our dog is acting up), despite what our four legged furry is doing on the end of its lead. I often wonder if some of these " well behaved" dogs were a nightmare at some point, and wonder how their owners turned them around. I told the owner of the terrier " everyone has off days" once he'd finally caught hold of the naughty pups and apolagised profusely.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> *There but the grace of god, go I.
> *
> I get sick of these threads...they always turn into a way of making people that keep reactive/aggressive dogs feel like they don't do enough/aren't good enough/their dogs shouldn't be alive


Exactly! This 'holier than thou' attitude stinks.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Exactly! This 'holier than thou' attitude stinks.


Meh!
It just goes to show that some have zero understanding how B-Mod actually works...I was terrified of spiders (I still struggle with some types) to the point of blind panic...no amount of corrections (running into door frames, tripping and falling etc,etc) would have changed my irrational fear. 
If it can take many years to help a human overcome a fear, I don't see why it should be any different for any species 

I get that some owners don't want to cope with a dog reactive/aggressive dog and that's OK. It's the sneering attitude at those that do have a less than "perfect" dog that annoys me.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

I really appreciate some of these posts that show some understanding and I agree with them but, that said, the other posts don't make me feel bad - some days I can do that all by myself!

It doesn't bother me too much if someone reckons I should check mine. Great it worked for their dog but tugging on her lead is a surefire way to trigger a very noisy response. I know her and know that's the worst thing I could do to her. I had a trainer do it to her once and it set her back months.

It might work as a quick fix for some dogs but not mine and I don't feel crappy for choosing not to do it. Even if it takes us longer to get where we want to be. Our dogs are all so very different so what one dog accepts may be detrimental to another, so I just disregard and move on. 

And it really is true about empathy. Our last dog was a 'perfect dog'. I used to see reactive dogs when we were out and wonder what on earth the owner got out of it - it looked so very unenjoyable - and go back to being awfully proud (and probably a little bit smug) of mine.

Now I have Willow I really appreciate what they were dealing with and have the utmost respect for them for sticking with a dog like that and giving them a chance. I should have been a little in awe instead of perplexed, I just had no real idea.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Why does it have to be either or?
> 
> Either you have a reactive dog and you're part of the "in" club who knows those struggles, or you have a "perfect" dog and you have no clue?
> Either you have a well behaved dog (and well behaved children too apparently) and thus have your act together, or you're a reactive mess and so your dog is too.
> ...


oh come on Ouesi, I am sure you have known many people that have the same problem with dog after dog or horse after horse or all their children. I have worked with many dogs and horses with problems but I would think I was doing something terribly wrong if I was trying the same thing day in and day out without solving the problem. You have to find what works for the combination of handler and dog or horse. My horses all need treating in different ways and I get really mad about the number of people that come and interact with them that either thump them and shout at them inappropriately or let the horse walk all over them. I am a firm believer in boundaries and to me a dog that is flying around on the end of the lead trying to get at everything is not a happy dog and does not have boundaries. I was horrified when Toffee was doing that and apologised to everyone I met and did something about it pronto when I realised the puppy excuse had rather run out. Same with Candy after she had been attacked and was very nervous of other dogs, you can only apologise for your dog's behaviour for so long, after a time it sounds a bit hollow and something needs doing about it.



StormyThai said:


> Meh!
> It just goes to show that some have zero understanding how B-Mod actually works...I was terrified of spiders (I still struggle with some types) to the point of blind panic...no amount of corrections (running into door frames, tripping and falling etc,etc) would have changed my irrational fear.
> If it can take many years to help a human overcome a fear, I don't see why it should be any different for any species
> 
> ...


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

But Blitz, you harp on about 'owners doing something'. What is your advice to those 'poor' owners as you so kindly put it? Why are you so evasive about the methods you used on your own dog? You've stated in a previous thread that you find owners using treats to be 'silly' in such situations, so it's apparent that wasn't the route you took. 

You're quick to cast judgements, but are not very forthcoming with your own experiences and knowledge. Is that maybe because you wish to avoid judgement yourself?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> But Blitz, you harp on about 'owners doing something'. What is your advice to those 'poor' owners as you so kindly put it? Why are you so evasive about the methods you used on your own dog? You've stated in a previous thread that you find owners using treats to be 'silly' in such situations, so it's apparent that wasn't the route you took.
> 
> You're quick to cast judgements, but are not very forthcoming with your own experiences and knowledge. Is that maybe because you wish to avoid judgement yourself?


Also no experience as far as I can tell with a dog with an actual ingrained issue,cause unknown, practiced for years. Dealing with a difficult dog isn't for everyone tho, especially if results are not instant


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

*You cannot possibly compare an aggressive or an over friendly dog with someone with a spider phobia or with a dog that has a phobia of something rather than a dislike or love of other dogs which manifests itself in bad manners.*

1. I did not compare overly friendly dogs with a spider phobia
2. I did not compare a dog that "just" dislikes other dogs with a spider phobia
3. Fear is fear, no matter what species is feeling it.

*I have certainly not heard anyone say they have a perfect dog or sneer at those that do not. I think that must come from having a chip on your shoulder over the subject.*
The irony here is hilarious.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> *There but the grace of god, go I.
> *
> I get sick of these threads...they always turn into a way of making people that keep reactive/aggressive dogs feel like they don't do enough/aren't good enough/their dogs shouldn't be alive


Hear hear! I had Bigby this morning screaming at a dog that was over the river - I try my best with him, we have our good and bad days and this morning I couldn't get him to listen as the dog across the river kept running back to 'taunt' Bigby! and then his dog started to bark, I had my 'reactive' dog under control at least.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Hear hear! I had Bigby this morning screaming at a dog that was over the river - I try my best with him, we have our good and bad days and this morning I couldn't get him to listen as the dog across the river kept running back to 'taunt' Bigby! and then his dog started to bark, I had my 'reactive' dog under control at least.


Sometimes all you can do is manage the situation once the dog becomes over threshold...just remember that there are understanding people out there that don't judge


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> I assume this Collie was on lead as you say it was straining and on it's back legs? So why does that bother you? At least the owner isn't allowing it off to lead to terrorize all & sundry. And contrary to what it may seem at the time, reactive dogs can be very friendly on meeting. If your dog is friendly and unresponsive to such reactions it shouldn't bother you, no? And if your dog is starting to react, that's your own problem, not the fault of the other dog owners.


. I have two reactive small reactive dogs , they became reactive due to being attacked by other dogs, whether a dog is on lead or not , it is terrifying for them to have a dog lunging and barking at them.
I work my butt off stopping them from barking and carrying on at other dogs . If i think my dogs might scare another dog , i will turn back or stand behind a car , and I know other owners of reactive dogs who show the same consideration .
But many dog owners don't know how to handle their reactive dogs and some dont understand how their dogs behaviour can frighten yours and some just don't care .

Some dogs maybe friendly when they meet but how are you and your dogs supposed to know that?


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

MiffyMoo said:


> I don't know, may be I'm overreacting, but I know that my two huskies are very wary around tiny dogs, and the biggest of the two will move behind me if one comes too close.


Yeah mine too. Amber gets on with bigger dogs but the small ones she doesn't like.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Sometimes all you can do is manage the situation once the dog becomes over threshold...just remember that there are understanding people out there that don't judge


Luckily not many people seem to judge me when out walking Bigby - most don't seem concerned or phased by his lunging, barking etc... but I can imagine in some cases its because of his breed, I can imagine if he was a overly friendly rottweiler or something, people would be different.

Though I was walking him the other day, he was on flexi and these two off lead dogs ran up to us and the owners didn't even react to Bigby being reactive to see their dogs, he could have been aggressive for all they knew and they just allowed their dogs to run right up to him.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sweety said:


> Well, your main complaint seems to be that the owners of these onlead, reactive dogs just keep on walking.


No , she said 
" Owners with dogs that bark, snap, growl & bear their teeth who carry on as if it's nothing leaving me *& the OH to get ours out of the way to avoid a possible conflict* while they just saunter along oblivious to what's going on! "

I have RA dogs myself , I keep moving but I move out of the way myself , I dont expect other people to have to avoid me . If my dogs react then i will call out an apology , you don't have to stop.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Hanwombat said:


> Hear hear! I had Bigby this morning screaming at a dog that was over the river - I try my best with him, we have our good and bad days and this morning I couldn't get him to listen as the dog across the river kept running back to 'taunt' Bigby! and then his dog started to bark, I had my 'reactive' dog under control at least.


 I'm sorry I don't understand this ? You dog kicked off and was screaming its head off at another dog and the other dog kept coming back to look to check what was happening and then felt he was in danger and he barked back . Did the other dog bark first ?

It sounds like that when your dog kicks off , no other dog is allowed to react back ?


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> I'm sorry I don't understand this ? You dog kicked off and was screaming its head off at another dog and the other dog kept coming back to look to check what was happening and then felt he was in danger and he barked back . Did the other dog bark first ?
> 
> It sounds like that when your dog kicks off , no other dog is allowed to react back ?


When did I specify that no other dog is allowed to react back? Of course the dog can react back, I was just saying that I had my dog under control in that he was on lead, so couldn't run in the direction to the other dog to continue barking, whereas the other dog kept running back and barking ( and yes he did bark first! ) my dog stops reacting once the dog is behind him, but as the dog kept running back I couldn't get him to listen as he was way past the threshold by then.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> I agree with Blitz on this, really.
> 
> I see several local people (from a distance now ) who really do just tolerate the behaviour rather than deal with it. Their walks are clearly stressful and unpleasant for their dog added to their own embarrassment.


Because they may not have the knowledge and experience to alter their dogs behaviour and also they can't control the other behaviour of loose dogs that run up to theirs.



> One lady actually said she thinks her terrier is scared of other dogs. Then proceeds to pour cold water on his head if he kicks off! She walks him on a long line so he can't attack other dogs. She had him from a pup, and apparently her last dog was exactly the same!


Her dogs is scared of other dogs but good grief what does she think shes doing! Poor dog ! Is there any way you could tactfully advise her on what to do ?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Hanwombat said:


> When did I specify that no other dog is allowed to react back? Of course the dog can react back, I was just saying that I had my dog under control in that he was on lead, so couldn't run in the direction to the other dog to continue barking, whereas the other dog kept running back and barking ( and yes he did bark first! ) my dog stops reacting once the dog is behind him, but as the dog kept running back I couldn't get him to listen as he was way past the threshold by then.


That was why I was asking what you meant. It wasnt clear.( or to me at least) Thanks for explaining 

ETA I've seen both sides of the story , having an RA dog is a nightmare and I know the feelings that go with it and how loose dogs can set your dog back.

I do accept that my dogs, small as they are, do sometimes scare other dogs and I do get cross when my dogs are quiet and another dog sets them off.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> That was why I was asking what you meant. It wasnt clear.( or to me at least) Thanks for explaining


No problem  Was just a little frustrating as once my dog is past his threshold I try to get out of the situation asap but where I was walking today it wasn't a simple case of taking a different turn as it was open fields and could only really go straight and the owner across the river was ignoring the fact his dog was barking and trailing behind to have a barkathon with my dog, whilst he was quite a distance ahead. Luckily, eventually, the dog ran towards his owners direction and my dog immediately calmed down.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> . I have two reactive small reactive dogs , they became reactive due to being attacked by other dogs, whether a dog is on lead or not , it is terrifying for them to have a dog lunging and barking at them.
> I work my butt off stopping them from barking and carrying on at other dogs . If i think my dogs might scare another dog , i will turn back or stand behind a car , and I know other owners of reactive dogs who show the same consideration .
> But many dog owners don't know how to handle their reactive dogs and some dont understand how their dogs behaviour can frighten yours and some just don't care .
> 
> Some dogs maybe friendly when they meet but how are you and your dogs supposed to know that?


I'm not sure what point you're making here? Some of us don't have time to stop and hide ( or the opportunity to if we're walking along country fields etc ) any time we see another dog, and at the end of the day if all dogs are on lead whilst passing what is there to apologize for? I'm concerning myself with my dog. I will stop and even engage in chat with some people if I feel they're understanding enough and explain our situation, but I really don't see the need to be paying special attention or consideration to other dog owners simply walking past us with their dog equally under control. Actually the only times i really have to warn other dog owners about my dog is when they're allowing theirs to saunter up to mine, then i have to say 'she's not friendly' which is usually not met with any real urgency to be honest on their part but there you go. You may think differently, and that's up to you.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

I couldn't give one flying feck what anyone around us thinks. Judge me, don't judge me.. whatever.. I don't need to be felt sorry for either. I've accepted my dogs for who they are, warts and all. They don't harm anyone or any other living thing so what have I got to 'apologise' for? ''Sorry my dog is making a noise and made you look in our direction?'' ?? I think not  my apologising days disappeared when I accepted my dog will never be perfect, trying to turn every walk into a training session was exhausting.. I've been a happier dog walker ever since  I just avoid anyone with a dog, simple. I live in an area where I can do that.. I'll always get out of the way. 

We had one dog the other week who was running circles round OH and the reactive peis. 'He only wants to play' the owner shouted as the dog ignored her recall. So I let Kyzer off 'to play' (after 5mins of the dog winding my other 2 up).. he loves chasing / being chased! He chased the dog away & recalled to me as he got to the edge of the field. Simple. Her dog was the issue, not my reactive ones. We then we're able to get across the field in peace  

They might be reactive but they are always under control. I fail to see the big deal really


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Just to try to clear things up a little...

I'm not perfect & I've never owned a dog that was, they all had a trait that was undesirable EG being too friendly with people by jumping up at anyone who spoke to them or went to pet.
The thing is I did/do something to try & stop/correct said behaviour unlike the woman in my OP... she did nothing! She didn't shorten the lead or did she take a hold of the collar, attempt to make space... nothing! If she had I would have seen some clue that would have given me a chance to do something, instead she carried on walking as if it she was used to it & it was normal behaviour.
I appreciate that people are dealing with difficult dogs & fair play to them but try to remember that other owners are dealing with their dogs too! Thor is 19 months old &, as a large breed, is still a puppy undergoing his training. Dogs lunging at him snarling isn't going to help.
Do I want special treatment? Not at all, what I do want is that if you know your dog is reactive/aggressive then take responsibility for it, don't pretend it's "dogs being dogs" because it isn't.
A little thought & consideration for others wouldn't go amiss, it's not all about "your" dog


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> . I have two reactive small reactive dogs , they became reactive due to being attacked by other dogs, whether a dog is on lead or not , it is terrifying for them to have a dog lunging and barking at them.
> I work my butt off stopping them from barking and carrying on at other dogs . If i think my dogs might scare another dog , i will turn back or stand behind a car , and I know other owners of reactive dogs who show the same consideration .
> But many dog owners don't know how to handle their reactive dogs and some dont understand how their dogs behaviour can frighten yours and some just don't care .
> 
> Some dogs maybe friendly when they meet but how are you and your dogs supposed to know that?


Well, my Blizzard wasn't reactive, he was downright aggressive. He hated other dogs and would have attacked them without any provocation.

I fail to see how I could have hidden on the canal tow path - not many cars on there - or maybe I could have jumped into the canal?

I made very certain Blizzard could never make contact with another dog, (unless one ran up to him), so I absolutely never felt the need to start apologising to anyone.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sweetie , Yes I completely understand that , very difficult in that situation but that wasn't the case with the OP and the other person's dog . I don't feel the OP should have had to move away. It wasnt her main complaint that the person didnt stop , it was that she felt forced to move out of her way for her dogs safety.

OH inherited barney from his aunty , he used to lunge, bark and bite and also bit someone. It was really difficult when loose dogs ran up or people would insist on trying to stroke him because they a way with dogs  We used a muzzle in the end and it helped us relax and counter conditioning , he is mainly fine now . 
That last bit is me rambling on and because I'm so proud of Barney and OH I want to tell people and maybe give them hope .


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I've just been talking to the dogs about it possibly being my fault that they're all terrible...


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I think people were far quicker to have a dog put down that was not suitable living as a pet - and was that wrong, I dont think so.
> .


So dogs with issues with other dogs aren't suitable living as a pet?

Brock's fine living as a pet...apart from roughly five minutes a day if we meet a dog.

He isn't trainable, well he's very trainable, but not for that because while he was forming that behaviour I couldn't completely avoid other dogs...the only thing that has successfully stopped owners allowing dogs to approach him is his behaviour worsening in fact. He's learnt that if he makes enough fuss dogs stay away and sadly he's right, because nothing else has done that, not walking in the middle of the night, not me telling people he's not friendly, not me telling people he's recovering from an operation and not even muzzling him.

Maybe that's what is different, the idea that dogs 'should' play...

And for the record, my children are lovely, thanks - though I'm not sure they count as children anymore given that they're nearly 16 and 20.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Not all dogs can overcome their issues. Some seem to think that because they've overcome issues with their dog that anyone who can't simply isn't working hard enough.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Not all dogs can overcome their issues. Some seem to think that because they've overcome issues with their dog that anyone who can't simply isn't working hard enough.


Maybe we should flip it round... Their dog didn't have a 'real' issue so they had it easy to overcome it ... However, Others are struggling with real issues so it's taking slightly longer to overcome & we may never overcome it..


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2015)

Blitz said:


> oh come on Ouesi, I am sure you have known many people that have the same problem with dog after dog or horse after horse or all their children.


Yup, I know exactly what you're talking about and to an extent I do share your frustration. However, there is also a large population of the dog owning public who is dealing with something for the first time with that individual dog, or who is dealing with something they have absolutely no responsibility for creating. 
And yes, even here, there is a part of me that gets that "OMG just give me a week with that dog he'll be fine" frustration going, especially when you see the dog is clearly not happy. That bugs me, I get it. 
But again, it's complex. Not all dog owners are clueless (much as it may seem that way at times), not all dogs are miserable, just having moments of snarling that others happen to witness often, and just because we don't see the owner dealing with it as we might doesn't mean it's not being addressed.

And let's not forget, not everyone has grown up with the same experiences or environment. I look at my own kids, they've never known a home without multiple big dogs in it, they were in baby carriers on my chest training, they've been to innumerable classes, seminars, dog shows, and events, just hanging out, they have no choice but to be savvy. And when they don't understand how some dog owners don't recognize dog body language or read signals, I have to remind them, they have lived in this world since before they were born, and not everyone else has.

We all have to start at wherever we are, as long as we're moving forward, making progress, learning new things, reflecting and adapting, it's all good in the end


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

How lovely it must be to be the perfect dog owner .


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Yup, I know exactly what you're talking about and to an extent I do share your frustration. However, there is also a large population of the dog owning public who is dealing with something for the first time with that individual dog, or who is dealing with something they have absolutely no responsibility for creating.
> And yes, even here, there is a part of me that gets that "OMG just give me a week with that dog he'll be fine" frustration going, especially when you see the dog is clearly not happy. That bugs me, I get it.
> But again, it's complex. Not all dog owners are clueless (much as it may seem that way at times), not all dogs are miserable, just having moments of snarling that others happen to witness often, and just because we don't see the owner dealing with it as we might doesn't mean it's not being addressed.
> 
> ...


Why did rep have to go :Arghh

Brilliant.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2015)

JenSteWillow said:


> Maybe we should flip it round... Their dog didn't have a 'real' issue so they had it easy to overcome it ... However, Others are struggling with real issues so it's taking slightly longer to overcome & we may never overcome it..


Sorry, but I find this unfair.

If I have a dog with an issue (not sure what qualifies as real or not) and the dog and I manage to overcome it, that success is every bit as valid as any other success.
We don't need to belittle other's accomplishments just because our dogs are not there yet (and might never be). Not that you are belittling anyone, just that it can seem that way with this sort of statement.

I used to get this all the time with Bates, our achievements put down saying he must not have been *that bad*. Those of us who know the dog I brought home in 2009 and the dog I have now know what we accomplished (and I say 'we' because it did take the support of a great group of trainers including driving to the next state to work with a KPA instructor who understands this kind of dog and held my hand though the scary parts).

I do agree that not everything is fixable, but most things you can at least make better. Taking a resource guarder from eating your hand to manageable safe is every bit as valid as taking a resource guarder from growing to totally fine in all situations.
It's not a competition, we are all on a continuum trying to move our dogs (and ourselves) forward and every success is celebration worthy


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Sorry, but I find this unfair.


I was joking 
As Sarah's post said, she feels as if people with issues they've overcome are saying the people with issues still there aren't trying hard enough.
So my tongue in cheek reply would be, maybe they didn't have to try hard at all.
In a joking way.
I'm sure I've been on here long enough to know we all try hard with our dogs and I'd never undermine anyone's achievements, big or small.

A few people know I've got willows reactiveness down a hell of a lot since day one, I bloody tired hard! I don't think I'd ever overcome it though 

I'd hoped my two winking smilies were covering the joking aspect, but maybe not, so I hope this post explains it


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Before having a dog with an issue, I would merrily skip past other dogs and maybe their struggling owners. My dog was regularly attacked by either another springer, whose owner wouldn't ever apologise but would grab the offending dog, or a nasty massive lab who hated my dog. The owner suggested we walk elsewhere. I suggested she control her DA dog or be reported for it being out of control. 

Now I have a very DA dog, he's been to three trainers, one of whom is famous (apparently). The only decent one is a gun dog trainer, unqualified, who has taught us coping mechanisms rather than cured the dog. (Believe me, I have numerous videos of him reacting to cartoon dogs, photos of dogs, porcelain ornament dogs on TV, it's not good)

My point, I think, is that until you own a dog with issues, you often get very peed off with other owners who seem to not control their dog. Ours is under very firm control, he is focused and walks are training, not nice relaxed off lead strolls through the woods these days. Untrained bouncy types are forever getting in his face, but the owner is always huffy and offended when I ask them to remove their little darling. How dare I tell them where to walk?! (I asked them to remove Fluffy from under my dog's nose, not vacate the area) And how dare I ask them to recall (when they can't because they've never manage this with Fluffy and they want Fluffy to run free) Or how dare I suggest that they take their dog away from mine (when I'd like a courteous distance around my dog, not the entire field to myself) 

Oops, slight rant there! I'm not having a pop at anyone on here, but walk a mile in my shoes then tell me I should train my dog to get over his issue. I have no doubt other people must think I'm one of those bad owners, but I do keep my dog very much under control and away from other dogs.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2015)

JenSteWillow said:


> I was joking
> As Sarah's post said, she feels as if people with issues they've overcome are saying the people with issues still there aren't trying hard enough.
> So my tongue in cheek reply would be, maybe they didn't have to try hard at all.
> In a joking way.


Ooops! Totally missed that, I get it now!


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

I only feel sympathy for other dog owners that have a reactive dog and turn my concern to my own dog to ensure they don't feel threatened.

We have 7 dogs, one of which I struggled for 6 years with his reactivity. I somehow created the problem in him as had him from a pup and he started to become reactive and aggressive around adolescence. I have attended training classes, workshops, one to one sessions and used d/s & c/c over the years and yes I made progress from a dog that would attempt to drag the lead out of my hand or trip me up to get free to 'get at' the other dog up on his back legs snarling and baring teeth at some distance from other dogs to being able to escape and avoid reactions at a more reasonable distance. 

I am experienced with dogs, work with dogs and indeed reactive dogs that have improved dramatically in my care and yet I could not overcome this issue with one of my own dogs. 

I then attended a workshop and took my boy as a behaviour case and had a completely different view on his behaviour and how to stop it. He is now 95% non reactive and when he does react, in all fairness it is usually justified in that the other dog shouted at him first. 

I have never given up, trained hard and eventually got that lucky break that made the years of tears and sweat worthwhile. So, frankly I find it very naive of people to suggest that another dog owner is just allowing or ignoring their reactive dogs bad behaviour. Perhaps these people are just fortunate that they have never owned a dog that has really challenged them or if they did, they got that lucky break a lot quicker than I did and some struggling owners have.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Because they may not have the knowledge and experience to alter their dogs behaviour and also they can't control the other behaviour of loose dogs that run up to theirs.
> Obviously not, but the help is out there if we look for it.
> Avoiding the playing fields is a step in the right direction. Now she seems to be walking round the estate any other dog they see is on lead and she can easily avoid, just by crossing the road, etc. The last 2 or 3 times I have seen them (from a distance) the dog has been fine cos no dogs in his view/zone
> 
> Her dogs is scared of other dogs but good grief what does she think shes doing! Poor dog ! Is there any way you could tactfully advise her on what to do ?


We have spoken a few times and I have tried to steer her gently, maybe it's working! Haven't seen her with the water bottle the last couple of times either, thankfully


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> I have RBF, forever being told by random strangers to 'cheer up love, it might never happen'


I hate it when people do that! Maybe it has already happened which is why they have that face on?

If someone had said that to me just after my dad or mum had died, or I had just heard my latest IVF round had failed I think I would have gone "ape sh*t at them!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I am confrontational my dogs not in the slightest, very happy go lucky dogs.
> 
> I am one of those people who will have words with those who glare, tut and shake heads! We had a few months of KT reacting now she doesn't, and if fellow dog walkers were put out by it tough shit! We put up with enough free running "friendly" dogs that other owners would just have to get over themselves for the few minutes it took to get past them, given most were fair weather dog walkers we'd not see them again when the weather turned.


I try to be understanding and when owners of dogs that are kicking off engage with me and I do tell them not to worry, etc. Sometimes, whilst they tell me about their dog, it's issues and their own struggle in dealing with it (with me standing far enough away with my calm, non threatening Jack ) their dog has an opportunity to relax and realise that not all other dogs are the enemy!

Jack's BFF is in fact one if the "worst" in our area! She just needed the chance to get to know him at her own pace, and her owner needed a bit of support and understanding


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> *There but the grace of god, go I.
> *
> I get sick of these threads...they always turn into a way of making people that keep reactive/aggressive dogs feel like they don't do enough/aren't good enough/their dogs shouldn't be alive


Well you shouldn't 

I think the majority have said they understand the difficulties and only lose patience when owners are known to not even try to deal with the issues - not least for the benefit of the "troubled" dog.

I was brought up with dogs and don't remember there being so many issues with dogs. It's only since getting Jack 4 years ago that I have encountered this problem.

I confess to being a bit baffled by it at first and probably not very understanding. It's only through mixing with other owners/dogs that I now see it from both sides.

I consider myself fortunate actually, because having an ex-stray, probably ex-working, lurcher of dubious background, and from rescue I know I could easily have been "one of those owners"!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Why does it have to be either or?
> 
> Either you have a reactive dog and you're part of the "in" club who knows those struggles, or you have a "perfect" dog and you have no clue?
> Either you have a well behaved dog (and well behaved children too apparently) and thus have your act together, or you're a reactive mess and so your dog is too.
> ...


Exactly.

Spending time on Greyhound Walks (ex-racing greyhounds can be some of the most extremely "damaged" ), it's clear that all the owners understand and accept any dogs with issues as readily as the "perfect" ones 

I do think there is a high level of understanding and support because of the "fellowship" that seems to go hand in hand with rehoming a greyhound


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Poundingpaws said:


> I then attended a workshop and took my boy as a behaviour case and had a completely different view on his behaviour and how to stop it. He is now 95% non reactive and when he does react, in all fairness it is usually justified in that the other dog shouted at him first.


I would love to hear more of this , it might be of help for the rest of us with FA dogs .



> So, frankly I find it very naive of people to suggest that another dog owner is just allowing or ignoring their reactive dogs bad behaviour. Perhaps these people are just fortunate that they have never owned a dog that has really challenged them or if they did, they got that lucky break a lot quicker than I did and some struggling owners have.


Speaking as an owner of reactive dogs , I think the OP Blackadder was justified in her complaint, and as I have already said IME people *do* allow or ignore their dogs behaviour for various reasons, that's not to suggest that she thinks members on here do that.

I've also seen FA dog owners on forums start threads complaining about the owners of dogs who have run up to theirs, about how they are too stupid or lazy to train their dogs or dont care where as it might have been someone who spends every day training their happy dog to recall and just once didn't notice another dog had come along and felt mortified and a failure and embarrassed that their dog was out of control and invaded someone else's space.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Ha, it's me, Kimthecat! ^^ I think of someone has never had a reactive dog, they won't anticipate that letting their dog off as I'm hobbling across a narrow footbridge with three on lead springers will cause an issue, which is then my fault! 

I think it's been put perfectly: there are owners who don't deal with their reactive dogs. I will warn people, although mine won't go across to other dogs, he is focused on me. If an in his face dog gets under his nose, yes, he'll kick off and I'll control him til the owner retrieves their dog. I can chuck a ball in the direction of other dogs and he goes for the ball. It's just the owners who state in a blasé manner that their dog is friendly and carry on walking that pee me off or the ones who claim their dog has never attacked another as it has mine on the ground screaming. There's no way that dog has always been perfect!

I have tried extremely hard with Zak and we avoid potential issues, which is a pita, we can't have nice relaxed woods' walks and we have to have the all powerful ball at all times or we're screwed!


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> I would love to hear more of this , it might be of help for the rest of us with FA dogs .
> 
> Speaking as an owner of reactive dogs , I think the OP Blackadder was justified in her complaint, and as I have already said IME people *do* allow or ignore their dogs behaviour for various reasons, that's not to suggest that she thinks members on here do that.
> 
> I've also seen FA dog owners on forums start threads complaining about the owners of dogs who have run up to theirs, about how they are too stupid or lazy to train their dogs or dont care where as it might have been someone who spends every day training their happy dog to recall and just once didn't notice another dog had come along and felt mortified and a failure and embarrassed that their dog was out of control and invaded someone else's space.


No doubt some people ignore or allow their dogs reactive behaviour. I probably didn't put it very well. In my experience of encounters with owners of reactive dogs it doesn't appear to me the owners do not care. Once the dog has reacted it is often very difficult to do anything about it.

I don't tend to rant about dog owners that have allowed their dog to run over to mine unless they are repeat offenders that obvious care little about about their effect on others. We have all had a dog fail to recall.

I treated my dog as fearful for many years and used the accepted positive training methods in an attempt to change his reaction to seeing other dogs. It definitely helped with his behaviour but has always been difficult to implement due to setbacks when he went over threshold.

Trying to dodge close encounters with another dog whilst implementing d/s and c/c is incredibly difficult and mostly impossible in real day to day life. The method I was finally taught was how to actually stop my dog from reacting whilst he was reacting. After putting this into practice with a number of dogs, it became pointless reacting for my dog. I have seen a remarkable change in him, almost a relief of responsibility in having to behave that way. Certainly for me instead of having to duck and dive avoiding encounters, the knowledge that should he react I am able to stop him in his tracks has given me confidence that no doubt has transferred to my dog.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Poundingpaws said:


> The method I was finally taught was how to actually stop my dog from reacting whilst he was reacting.


Could I ask how you achieved that please?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BlackadderUK said:


> Just to try to clear things up a little...
> 
> I'm not perfect & I've never owned a dog that was, they all had a trait that was undesirable EG being too friendly with people by jumping up at anyone who spoke to them or went to pet.
> The thing is I did/do something to try & stop/correct said behaviour unlike the woman in my OP... she did nothing! She didn't shorten the lead or did she take a hold of the collar, attempt to make space... nothing! If she had I would have seen some clue that would have given me a chance to do something, instead she carried on walking as if it she was used to it & it was normal behaviour.
> ...


In the same respect its not all about yours either. I had a reactive 10 month old Rottweiler bitch, and and 16 month old Rottweiler male, Cian was and is fantastic with other dogs, we walked our separately and together, to work on her confidence, we also took it as a great training opportunity to reach Cian than even if all hell broke lose round him, he has no need to react at all because everything was in hand.

Dogs can react to just one dog or person, he's never done that before can often be true. I stood one day with Cian talking to a Collie owner, both dogs sitting calmly to heel.. Cian then went ballistic on the end of the lead, luckly for me its ingrained in me to use short leads in certain situations, he's never done it before or since, can only assume the Collie stare annoyed him?

If when working with KT I'd of shortened the lead or grabbed her collar, she would have freaked, as she was terrified of other dogs. So while getting her past you would look like I was doing nothing, like I said by the time we were walking her in areas of other dogs she was pretty much ignoring 99% of the time..

I do understand your frustration but its often not black and white...  using it to teach Thor.

KT is great now, we met a fantastic owner who offered to help us one day when she did kick off


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> I would love to hear more of this , it might be of help for the rest of us with FA dogs .
> 
> Speaking as an owner of reactive dogs , I think the OP Blackadder was justified in her complaint, and as I have already said IME people *do* allow or ignore their dogs behaviour for various reasons, that's not to suggest that she thinks members on here do that.
> 
> I've also seen FA dog owners on forums start threads complaining about the owners of dogs who have run up to theirs, about how they are too stupid or lazy to train their dogs or dont care where as it might have been someone who spends every day training their happy dog to recall and just once didn't notice another dog had come along and felt mortified and a failure and embarrassed that their dog was out of control and invaded someone else's space.


Yep it happens, no issue with it if people apologise luckly now KT doesn't react, but before she would have..Slightly different if it happens every time. Those who keep letting their dogs off knowing they don't recall ( hundreds of threads on this forum from people who want to know how to stop their dogs running away or toward another dog don't see that keeping them on a lead until they nail recall as an option) yet they keep doing it. My dog wouldn't have been able to injure herself or another dog while she reacted on a lead, she could have injured herself or another dog if the dog ran up to her off lead. Huge difference.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

When I take on a new rescue dog I spend some time getting to know them and their character and what they already know in terms of training and what we need to work on for safety/control/basic manners etc but I also accept certain dogs have certain behaviour/characteristics that won't be easy to change or rather will cause the dog a lot of stress to try and change so perhaps I am odd or perhaps I am wrong but I do accept some things and learn to live with them or adapt to them. I don't expect all my dogs to be the same/react the same to every situation and don't find adapting or managing behaviours that perhaps others would not accept that big a deal. Reading threads like this I am so grateful we have access to lovely areas to walk where there are few other dogs around or more importantly few other owners around giving the look or tut tutting everytime a dog does something they don't find acceptable. Personally I find other people's unruly children far more of an issue in my day to day life


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> Could I ask how you achieved that please?


I was asked to not describe the method freely over the internet, so have to respect that. This is for a number of reasons, only one of which, is that not all dog/owners are suitable and a thorough assessment is done before deciding what method to use. All I will say is, I physically make it impossible for him to carry on reacting. I do not hurt him or intimidate him in order to this.

I was asked for a lot of history before my dog being invited into the room and observed. Finally I had to leash my dog and a stooge dog brought into the room and I was asked initially to NOT do anything so that the trainer could actually see how he reacted before deciding on a suitable method.

If anyone is interested in knowing who the trainer is with a view to asking for help for their dog Pm me as I don't want to cause her any grief for her on Internet forums.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Pounding paws, yes , it is very difficult to stop once a dog kicks off. I do need to spend more time walking my dogs separately . i wouldn't be able to walk them if they were large as even if they were on a lead they wouldn't be under control . If an a dog is approaching that i know they will kick off at , i just do an about turn very quickly , I practise this when there are no dogs about so its a habit in a fun sort of way as if its a game .
If that's not possible I stay where I am pick libby up and tuck her under my arm as this calms her and drop treats for pip as he loves his grub and is at a stage where he will eat rather than bark but if the dog comes running right up all i can do is try to block it . I am lucky that my two don't bite other dogs.
With Ohs Barney , if we were trapped he would slip a muzzle on as barney would bite , he would kneel down and face barney and put his arms round him ,( not over his back ) and that would calm him .

I'm not sure what method helped you , but is it some thing to do pack leadership of NILIF ? I guess what is meant by those terms varies on how people interpret them .

ETA just read your post above so ingore that bit about pack leadership.

Also , which country is the trainer in . Not much point in my Pming you if she is in the States !


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Poundingpaws said:


> I was asked to not describe the method freely over the internet, so have to respect that. This is for a number of reasons, only one of which, is that not all dog/owners are suitable and a thorough assessment is done before deciding what method to use. All I will say is, I physically make it impossible for him to carry on reacting. I do not hurt him or intimidate him in order to this.
> 
> I was asked for a lot of history before my dog being invited into the room and observed. Finally I had to leash my dog and a stooge dog brought into the room and I was asked initially to NOT do anything so that the trainer could actually see how he reacted before deciding on a suitable method.
> 
> If anyone is interested in knowing who the trainer is with a view to asking for help for their dog Pm me as I don't want to cause her any grief for her on Internet forums.


From what you describe it sounds like CAT or Constructional Aggression Treatment which was first developed in 2007 by Dr Jesus Rosales-Ruiz and Kelly Snider of the University of North Texas.

I'm not sure but I don't think there are many trainers in the UK who use this method. It first came to my attention when our previous trainer asked if I would allow my Pei, who's virtually bomb proof, to be used as a stooge dog for a reactive GSD he was working with.

If I'm correct out of respect for your trainer, I won't go into detail except to say that from what I've seen it works.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Poundingpaws said:


> I was asked to not describe the method freely over the internet, so have to respect that. This is for a number of reasons, only one of which, is that not all dog/owners are suitable and a thorough assessment is done before deciding what method to use. All I will say is, I physically make it impossible for him to carry on reacting. I do not hurt him or intimidate him in order to this.
> 
> I was asked for a lot of history before my dog being invited into the room and observed. Finally I had to leash my dog and a stooge dog brought into the room and I was asked initially to NOT do anything so that the trainer could actually see how he reacted before deciding on a suitable method.
> 
> If anyone is interested in knowing who the trainer is with a view to asking for help for their dog Pm me as I don't want to cause her any grief for her on Internet forums.


Hmmmm, interesting!

Thank you for answering my question the best you could. But I doubt I will be seeking this trainer out if her methods are so cloak and dagger


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Pounding paws, yes , it is very difficult to stop once a dog kicks off. I do need to spend more time walking my dogs separately . i wouldn't be able to walk them if they were large as even if they were on a lead they wouldn't be under control . If an a dog is approaching that i know they will kick off at , i just do an about turn very quickly , I practise this when there are no dogs about so its a habit in a fun sort of way as if its a game .
> If that's not possible I stay where I am pick libby up and tuck her under my arm as this calms her and drop treats for pip as he loves his grub and is at a stage where he will eat rather than bark but if the dog comes running right up all i can do is try to block it . I am lucky that my two don't bite other dogs.
> With Ohs Barney , if we were trapped he would slip a muzzle on as barney would bite , he would kneel down and face barney and put his arms round him ,( not over his back ) and that would calm him .
> 
> I'm not sure what method helped you , but is it some thing to do pack leadership of NILIF ? I guess what is meant by those terms varies on how people interpret them .


Yes that is what I used to do with Polo. Make a sharp about turn which I practised regularly.

The method is not based on pack leadership, no. Nor NILIF.

I think the trainer has theories to why the method works but is honest in the fact that they are just that, theories. Her theory as to why Polo possibly behaved as he did, was that he thought it was his job. That made sense to me. Polo will back me up if I tell one of our dogs to quit doing something! He is a collie and and bred to do a job. He certainly has an effect on dogs around him and in a group situation other dogs listen to him. He certainly seems to be relieved to not have to this job any longer.

What your other half does with Barney has similarities to this method. But it makes a permanent change in the dog. I'm not 100% sure why!


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> Hmmmm, interesting!
> 
> Thank you for answering my question the best you could. But I doubt I will be seeking this trainer out if her methods are so cloak and dagger


I certainly get that! I think she ventured to sharing her method over the internet previously and it put her off. I know she has considered a variety of ways to get this method out there. People can be very cruel. :-(.

I kind of 'knew' her via Internet forums, fb etc for years before going to see her so felt like I had some insight into her views and training methods, experiences and how she seemed as a person. If I had been completely wrong, I figured I could always turn and run and say not for me and my dog thanks!


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Magyarmum said:


> From what you describe it sounds like CAT or Constructional Aggression Treatment which was first developed in 2007 by Dr Jesus Rosales-Ruiz and Kelly Snider of the University of North Texas.
> 
> I'm not sure but I don't think there are many trainers in the UK who use this method. It first came to my attention when our previous trainer asked if I would allow my Pei, who's virtually bomb proof, to be used as a stooge dog for a reactive GSD he was working with.
> 
> If I'm correct out of respect for your trainer, I won't go into detail except to say that from what I've seen it works.


I think I have read a bit about CAT some years ago, prior to using BAT with Polo and understand it is quite controversial? I think this trainer possibly does use a bit of a variation on CAT for some dogs although what I used with Polo is quite different in many respects. I might be wrong that she uses CAT but she described behaviour cases and one of her cases and the method that she used for this dog seemed to ring bells with similarities to CAT.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Also said:


> Sorry missed that. She is in the UK.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

I used to be one of these embarrassed apologisers that people probably labelled as having 'badly behaved dogs' lunging and barking at certain dogs they felt threatened by for various reasons, like invasion of space or too close proximity on narrow paths.
The usual distraction methods did not work with my BCs as they were over threshold so quickly, and they fired each other up.
One day coming out of the gate they started like this as 2 dogs(that had previously rushed them off leash in the field) were coming along on leash about 12 yards away. There was no need so I got very firm with them said 'stop that' !tightened them right to me and walked on across the road.
Couldn't believe it worked they immediately calmed as I had taken control of the situation 
Now after practicing this method of not allowing, they trust I am in control of things, so they don't have to be, and they do not have that reactive default without very good reason I am not a novice dog owner and wonder why the hell I just didn't do this before, but different dogs, different experience and learning all the time !


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Dog Walker Woman said:


> I used to be one of these embarrassed apologisers that people probably labelled as having 'badly behaved dogs' lunging and barking at certain dogs they felt threatened by for various reasons, like invasion of space or too close proximity on narrow paths.
> The usual distraction methods did not work with my BCs as they were over threshold so quickly, and they fired each other up.
> One day coming out of the gate they started like this as 2 dogs(that had previously rushed them off leash in the field) were coming along on leash about 12 yards away. There was no need so I got very firm with them said 'stop that' !tightened them right to me and walked on across the road.
> Couldn't believe it worked they immediately calmed as I had taken control of the situation
> Now after practicing this method of not allowing, they trust I am in control of things, so they don't have to be, and they do not have that reactive default without very good reason I am not a novice dog owner and wonder why the hell I just didn't do this before, but different dogs, different experience and learning all the time !


For some dogs it really is that simple!

I think that is why it is important to not be judgemental. One persons experience with one, two or more dogs is not going to be the same and each dog/owner relationship is different. I walk two reactive collies. One of them has become 100% non reactive when I walk him but still reacts regularly for his owners. They are not stupid and not doing anything 'wrong' but have a history and habit pattern with their dog that I don't.

The other reactive collie is so highly strung she is a work in progress. The owners neighbours queried with me why she just stood letting a dog pass her dog kicking off without telling it off. I found it hard not to laugh. I think I might have laughed actually. The dog is in such a state she is completely unaware of her poor desperate owner trying to get away to no avail. It looks like she is enabling the dog and yet I know the work she puts in with that dog at keeping her below threshold and building trust and obedience.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Meezey said:


> In the same respect its not all about yours either.
> 
> Dogs can react to just one dog or person, he's never done that before can often be true. I stood one day with Cian talking to a Collie owner, both dogs sitting calmly to heel.. Cian then went ballistic on the end of the lead, luckly for me its ingrained in me to use short leads in certain situations, he's never done it before or since, can only assume the Collie stare annoyed him?
> 
> ...


Normally I would 100% agree with you but in this instance I feel it was all about my dog. It's not like we suddenly met at a turning, we saw each other a good way away giving her plenty of time to do something...
I saw a woman walking a small black dog a couple of days earlier, when she saw us (a good 200 yds) she stopped dead & I took this to mean either she or her dog wasn't too happy with passing other dogs in close proximity so I went another way. No stress, no conflict & dead easy.
This woman did absolutely nothing! Yep she could have been practising "calm" so as not to make things worse although I'm not sure how much worse things could have got short of her dog slipping it's lead? I know if my dogs suddenly acted out of character I'd show some reaction...probably shock  This woman just breezed past as if it was normal everyday stuff, no apology just a very unconcerned "he doesn't mean it"...pffffft

Maybe it's because of the Christmas holidays & I, like others, are walking our dogs at different than normal times but I can honestly say I haven't seen so many dogs I haven't seen before or so many that are not under control! Granted only a couple were actually aggressive but even so the number of dogs that have been off lead & come running over to mine with the owners not giving a flying f*** is unbelievable. This episode was, I suppose, the last straw.

I'll just add that Thor isn't a perfect dog by any stretch & he does have his issues but these are people rather than dog related, he thinks everyone loves him (men in particular) & wants to be far too friendly which would/does involve jumping up. I don't want this, it's as undesirable as DA IMO & I'm working to curb it, he is getting better but still needs work.
So I'm not oblivious to owners working with dogs who have problems!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

To be honest, I see many 'rants' on here about other dog owners who allow their dogs to run up to others and I don't understand why some people get so worked up about it.

During forty years of walking dogs every day, I've come across many dog owners who range from careless to downright stupid. I've seen people doing dangerous things, taking risks with their dogs, and have lost count of the number of people who allow or even encourage their dogs to approach Rosie, even when I've made it very clear she isn't friendly to dogs who invade her space.

The "Oh, but he's friendly/He only wants to play/Oh, well he needs to learn" Brigade. They're out there and they always will be.


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## Winter1961 (Dec 22, 2015)

Interesting thread. For me the main thing that comes across is that we all have sympathy for those with very reactive and/or overly playful dogs - if the owners are doing their best to manage the situation. Lucy can be slightly reactive when on the lead, she can also - for some dogs - be OTT in terms of rough play. For me it's a case of knowing my own dog and reading the reactions of other dogs. I know that she usually gets on fine with dogs once she's had a chance to get to know them. I also know, by talking to their owners first, which dogs enjoy full-on, body-slamming chase play - _before_ I let her engage. Fortunately she's ball obsessed and I can always divert her if need be.

Pet hates for me are the people who get so absorbed in texting that they have no idea what their dogs are doing - or even where they are. And the numpties who see me put Lucy on a lead if we're approaching a dog she doesn't know and who still let their dogs charge right into her face with the usual 'oh it's alright, my dog's okay, he won't hurt her' to which they normally receive a frosty 'I'm sure he won't, but _she_ might hurt _him_!' Come to think of it, I'm probably 'owner-reactive'. Lucy clearly has her work cut out training me!

In the end it comes down to good human manners. I have every sympathy with the hapless owner who has a difficult dog to deal with and is doing their best to take preemptive action.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BlackadderUK said:


> Normally I would 100% agree with you but in this instance I feel it was all about my dog. It's not like we suddenly met at a turning, we saw each other a good way away giving her plenty of time to do something...
> I saw a woman walking a small black dog a couple of days earlier, when she saw us (a good 200 yds) she stopped dead & I took this to mean either she or her dog wasn't too happy with passing other dogs in close proximity so I went another way. No stress, no conflict & dead easy.
> This woman did absolutely nothing! Yep she could have been practising "calm" so as not to make things worse although I'm not sure how much worse things could have got short of her dog slipping it's lead? I know if my dogs suddenly acted out of character I'd show some reaction...probably shock  This woman just breezed past as if it was normal everyday stuff, no apology just a very unconcerned "he doesn't mean it"...pffffft
> 
> ...


Again just making the point, that could have been me.... At the later part of KT's training, she 99% of the time would not of reacted, so I would have carried on walking towards you not needing to do anything other than engage her, as 99% of the time she wouldn't react, still now a year and a half on she ignores 99.9% of dogs but I know she might react, I am certainly not going to start putting in escape and evasion plans in just because there is a chance she might, I don't want to start teaching her dogs need to be avoided, and there really is a reason for her to be scared, just means the next dog we see I'll engage her attention quicker work harder on keeping it and reward her more for ignoring...


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Poundingpaws said:


> For some dogs it really is that simple!


For most it isn't that simple 
If it was that simple then I doubt most would bother with proper DS/CC, they would just tell their dogs to stop and tighten the leash.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

So many posts so little time!
CAT interesting concept but not for the inexperienced.
Yes , important to remember each dog , owner and situation is different.
Blackadder , your Thor sounds like my Pip , he loves people and he spent a time being longlined and C and T for not jumping up people.
What also pees me off is fellow dog owners who hand out treats to all dogs which encourages my Pip jump up them , this is despite me asking them not to. They might not mind pip ignoring my Off instruction and jumping up them but other people do !


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Do you have any idea how long it can take to get from A to B if you have to take evasive measures with every dog you see? Sometimes you just keep on walking while minimising the time spent reacting because you have a time limit you need to stick to.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Again just making the point, that could have been me.... At the later part of KT's training, she 99% of the time would not of reacted, so I would have carried on walking towards you *not needing to do anything other than engage her*


So you would have been doing something then


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Blackadder , your Thor sounds like my Pip , he loves people and he spent a time being longlined and C and T for not jumping up people.
> What also pees me off is fellow dog owners who hand out treats to all dogs which encourages my Pip jump up them , this is despite me asking them not to. They might not mind pip ignoring my Off instruction and jumping up them but other people do !


Please, don't start me on that


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

it kinda saddens me that we have to explain to people that Amber can't meet their dog. We met a lovely pointer puppy this morning whom Teddy met and liked but we can't risk it with Amber cause we don't want to scare the puppy for life.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I don't want to start teaching her dogs need to be avoided, and there really is a reason for her to be scared, just means the next dog we see I'll engage her attention quicker work harder on keeping it and reward her more for ignoring...


 I would carry on too if my dog was ok 99% of the time.

I don't think escape and avoidance teaches a dog that dogs need to be avoided or make her feel that they need to be avoided if done in certain ways though if one get tense or sounds nervous or panic then that would contribute to 
their dog picking that up and feeling fearful.

I practise randomly This Way when no dogs are around and I make it a fun thing and happy voice , so they think they are playing a game . I don't do it every time I see a dog.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Wiz201 said:


> it kinda saddens me that we have to explain to people that Amber can't meet their dog. We met a lovely pointer puppy this morning whom Teddy met and liked but we can't risk it with Amber cause we don't want to scare the puppy for life.


 I must admit that I miss being able to socialise with some dogs and their owners especially as there tend to be more breeds from abroad that I have little experience of .
Sometimes OH and I go for walks with out the dogs so we can relax and not have to worry or be vigilant.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> For most it isn't that simple
> If it was that simple then I doubt most would bother with proper DS/CC, they would just tell their dogs to stop and tighten the leash.


Not sure why the wink? I'm only too well aware of that, which was the point of my post.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Magyarmum said:


> From what you describe it sounds like CAT or Constructional Aggression Treatment which was first developed in 2007 by Dr Jesus Rosales-Ruiz and Kelly Snider of the University of North Texas.
> 
> I'm not sure but I don't think there are many trainers in the UK who use this method. It first came to my attention when our previous trainer asked if I would allow my Pei, who's virtually bomb proof, to be used as a stooge dog for a reactive GSD he was working with.
> 
> If I'm correct out of respect for your trainer, I won't go into detail except to say that from what I've seen *it works*.


For what it's worth, I don't think that the elusive process described by Poundingpaws sounds like Constructional Aggression Treatment.

Poundingpaws suggested it worked.
It might well work, but the crucial question, most important of all really (and key to longevity of it's effects) is:

*WHY does it work?:*
Why does the dog stop reacting and how does it change the dog's emotional response to the stimulus?

I suspect an honest answer to that question would reveal the 'method' for what it is: less than humane (if of course, I have read into the elusive abstract correctly, as I understand it in which a reaction by the dog, at the point of reactivity is made impossible for the dog)


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

I didn't feel it was simple but in a short response it may have sounded so, and no intent to diminish anyone else by that.
This came after months of struggle with treats, toys, reassurance etc and being too concerned with offending the other person and upsetting their dog.
Two dogs lunging and barking was a nightmare and I was constantly stressed with a bad shoulder.
I didn't set out to take charge in that way, but it happened that day and worked and was a lightbulb time for me with my particular dogs.
Still have to watch for other dogs, on leash or off and weigh things up all the time because there are a lot of people around with dogs to watch out for, and BCs are very sensitive and bred to react quickly and control a situation so I need to be there first.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2016)

Well had a new one today!
Bates and I did a “First Day” hike - a National Parks initiative to encourage people to hike the parks all year. So we go out, meet the rangers at the designated area (parking lot) and this guy pulls up with a dog going bananas in the car. 
Okay.... 

He then lets the dog out, a lovely black GSD who is, to put it mildly, excited. Doing the GSD shriek bark, lunging like a thing possessed, not aggressive, just very, very happy and excited to be there. 
While this is all happening, I remove Bates and position him behind a group of people, trying to block him from the GSDs sight.
To my surprise, the guy approaches us (gets dragged towards us) and over the din of his dog’s barking, says “can they meet so he’ll stop barking?” 
Yeah... uh, no. I politely declined. 

More like "oh hell no." I mean, I know my dogs is standing here politely, though quite alert, but I promise, it ain’t gonna be pretty if that giant ball of energy burst in to his space. That is exactly the sort of dog Bates cannot stand and would happily poke holes in him as he explains appropriate behavior. 
But WTH?! What if Bates were terrified of this dog? Who frankly most dogs would find at the very least unsettling. Why should I have to subject my dog to this dog’s OTT behavior just so the dog will settle down? 

The hike itself ended up being very pleasant, about 30 people, and this dog did end up setting somewhat and not interrupting the park guide too much.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

lemmsy said:


> For what it's worth, I don't think that the elusive process described by Poundingpaws sounds like Constructional Aggression Treatment.
> 
> Poundingpaws suggested it worked.
> It might well work, but the crucial question, most important of all really (and key to longevity of it's effects) is:
> ...


The WHY is of course important but as I stated before we only have theories for that other than the fact of course the whole reaction becomes pointless as I am stopping him in his tracks. But clearly there is more to it as the effects are lasting. After performing the method on perhaps 5 or 6 reactions to different dogs, he simply stopped reacting.

The difference in the method in so much as instead of avoiding reactions to other dogs I was actively seeking other dogs on walks to practise the technique. Prior training methods involved every reaction to a dog a set-back. A failure as an owner of keeping my dog safe and below threshold. However whilst seeking dogs it quickly became impossible to stop a reaction because he was simply not reacting!

As for being inhumane. I really do not see how physically preventing a dog from straining, leaping barking and snarling is automatically assumed to be inhumane :-/. Pulling the lead in short and doing a hasty retreat is stopping a dog reacting also, albeit in a drawn out way. Allowing it to continue could be considered inhumane and potentially dangerous if not managed appropriately. I will state again, I did not hurt my dog or intimidate him and I would not have participated if I thought for one moment it would harm my boy or our relationship which is extremely close built on trust and respect. Bear in mind this is not your average pet/owner bond but a working relationship due to the amount of training I have had to put in over the years.

I am guessing this is why the trainer does not want the details of the method discussed over the internet because something that has worked so quickly and permanently is automatically dismissed as abusive/in humane etc and it can get quite unpleasant.

One thing I certainly can't be accused of though is wanting a quick fix at whatever cost to my dog as I have always accepted my dog for who he is, worked on his issues for years, enjoyed the progress we made and was prepared to manage his behaviour and enjoy him in spite of them. Finding the key to stopping him from getting himself in a state in proximity of unknown dogs was just the icing on the cake and has given him much more freedom and made our walks far more enjoyable.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2016)

lemmsy said:


> *WHY does it work?:*
> Why does the dog stop reacting and how does it change the dog's emotional response to the stimulus?
> 
> I suspect an honest answer to that question would reveal the 'method' for what it is: less than humane (if of course, I have read into the elusive abstract correctly, as I understand it in which a reaction by the dog, at the point of reactivity is made impossible for the dog)


Denise Fenzi just wrote a blog about there is no "have to" in dog training, that surprisingly turned out to cause a huge controversy (I say surprisingly because it was not controversial at all. Here it is: http://denisefenzi.com/2015/12/28/have-to-vs-want-to/ )
So in response to the controversy, I love her reply, she said, you know what, let's talk less as obviously words get misconstrued. Instead, show your training. Post a video of your training, the unedited version, the process. If you're comfortable with your training methods and believe in them, put your money where your mouth is, and show it.

I love it. It's basically saying "run your dog, not your mouth."

I think it speaks volumes when a trainer won't train in front of potential clients, won't let folks "out back", doesn't share techniques etc. If it can't be shown in public, why is that? If it can't be discussed among fellow dog owners, why not?

I recently posted a video on FB trying to clarify CC/DS for nail trims, and received a private message that I shouldn't be reaching over my dog's head during the DS process, and that my treat delivery timing was off. I totally agree with the comments and was happy to address them in public. The dog in question was not truly being DS/CC to nail trims, he was just being the demo dog, but the comments were valid and I was just happy that someone took the time to watch the video carefully enough to notice the mistakes


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Denise Fenzi just wrote a blog about there is no "have to" in dog training, that surprisingly turned out to cause a huge controversy (I say surprisingly because it was not controversial at all. Here it is: http://denisefenzi.com/2015/12/28/have-to-vs-want-to/ )
> So in response to the controversy, I love her reply, she said, you know what, let's talk less as obviously words get misconstrued. Instead, show your training. Post a video of your training, the unedited version, the process. If you're comfortable with your training methods and believe in them, put your money where your mouth is, and show it.
> 
> I love it. It's basically saying "run your dog, not your mouth."
> ...


There were another dozen people at the workshop I attended with Polo. She has run previous workshops and used the technique with other people present and watching. My husband and her colleague filmed the process and submitted this to you tube. It is set to private so that we can choose who can view. She has asked my permission to show people the you tube video (other professionals mainly). She also has a fb group of which I'm a member and have posted the footage.

I think the reason she has asked me not to explain the technique in detail is due to prior experience of plain nasty responses. I do understand that as it is obvious that some are already suggesting it be inhumane without knowing details. I do have after photographs and possibly video footage of my dog since which I am happy to post but am loathed to show his before footage as the instructor can be seen in the footage and that is not fair on her.

Just to add, she has not asked me not to show the footage to people I wish or talk about it Just not via Internet forums and the like.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

If anyone is interested as to what CAT is, I'm posting a link

http://www.training-your-dog-and-you.com/constructional_aggression_treatment.html

CAT , BAT , LAT.  Trainers love their acronyms !


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

The last photograph was taken shortly after the workshop. I asked the owners of the shih tzus if I could take a photo to let the trainer see how he was doing.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh and as a side issue, Polo didn't 'do' kids, bikes, skateboards etc. in the first photograph it was a busy bank holiday and all that was happening around him and he barely batted an eyelid . Just so proud of him.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Poundingpaws said:


> The WHY is of course important but as I stated before we only have theories for that other than the fact of course the whole reaction becomes pointless as I am stopping him in his tracks. But clearly there is more to it as the effects are lasting. After performing the method on perhaps 5 or 6 reactions to different dogs, he simply stopped reacting.


It's more than just "important" it is the key to the source of the whole behaviour, which causes the problem. Let's put this in laymens' terms:
The dog reacts as he does because he feels a certain way. A fearful or conflicted dog, when he feels he as no other option will loose the plot and make a hell of a display to get the thing to go away.
I don't like big spiders. If you locked me in a cupboard and put a tarantula on my wrist, you can bet you bottom dollar that I'd be hyperventilating, thrashing my arm about to get it off, and sadly, stamping on it hard when it hit the ground.

If you stopped my reaction in its tracks, would I feel any different?
You lock me in a cupboard, put a tarantula on my wrist and grab a hold of me, put me in a head lock and grab my wrist so that the tarantula stays on me. I'm still hyperventilated, I just can't get it off. After a while, I might 'appear' to calm down, I'm not hyperventilating anymore. Actually I'm in a state of shock and have given up. But do I like spiders? No chance! I still hate them.
If you locked me in the cupboard and put a tarantula on my arm and restrained me enough times, I might learn that there is no use screeching and thrashing about, instead choosing to stay very still and "tolerate" the spider. Maybe I look like my fear is fixed? I'm not. I'm still petrified. I'm just staying very still, because I know that if I don't you'll be holding me still anyway before I can count to three.
If you locked me in a cupboard and put a tarantula on my arm and then left, knowing you weren't there and weren't going to restrain me, I would do exactly as last time: hyperventilate, screech, thrash about and stamp on it when it hit the ground.

I still feel exactly the same way. Horrified. Without the use of force or the presence of someone that I know would use force on me, I would still kill the spider.
All you would have done is change the behaviour when you are there, if you carry on restraining me enough, from time to time, to maintain it.

I still hate spiders and if I had to, will stamp on one again to feel safe.



Poundingpaws said:


> As for being inhumane. I really do not see how physically preventing a dog from straining, leaping barking and snarling is automatically assumed to be inhumane :-/.


Let's go back to my spider horror story.
Suppressing behaviour- giving me no other option to make myself feel safe again, simply restraining me and having me "suck it up" (experiencing immense horror the whole time) is inhumane. Had I thrashed about and got rid of the spider, I would have felt some relief. Instead, giving me no option to escape and exposing me to something that is horrifying and highly stressful, with no escape is inhumane.



Poundingpaws said:


> Pulling the lead in short and doing a hasty retreat is stopping a dog reacting also, albeit in a drawn out way. Allowing it to continue could be considered inhumane and potentially dangerous if not managed appropriately.


Here, we agree. Exposing a dog to that level of stress on a daily or walkly basis would not be remotely in the best interests of the dog.
It also raises several questions:
1. Is the walking location appropriate for the dog and conducive to progress?
2. Is the handlers timing as good as it could be? (Sometimes sh*t happens and we don't see things or we can't get away quick enough, but leaving it to the point of the dog kicking off before you retreat every time, suggests poor timing).
3. Why do you need to pull the lead short? Does that have to be aversive? (Nope!)
4. Could turning around and retreating become a double reinforcer opportunity for the dog? (The answer is yes)



Poundingpaws said:


> I will state again, I did not hurt my dog or intimidate him and I would not have participated if I thought for one moment it would harm my boy or our relationship which is extremely close built on trust and respect. Bear in mind this is not your average pet/owner bond but a working relationship due to the amount of training I have had to put in over the years.


I couldn't possibly comment on your dog and your relationship, especially knowing so little about the method that was used on your dog, other than that it involved flooding and physical restraint. Therefore my comments relate to the use of flooding and restraint itself (not you and your dog).

Flooding and restraint may not physically harm the dog. However, emotionally the dog is put into a state of distress, then not given any choice in how to respond, their movements physically restricted. By prohibiting inappropriate ways to seek out relief (reactivity to you and I) and further not providing appropriate alternatives (allowing distance, or moving the trigger away when good choices are made), the dog's level of distress increases. This may not physically hurt the dog, but emotionally it is hugely damaging and does nothing to change the way that the dog feels about the trigger.
Yes the symptomatic behaviour goes away for the time being or if the person(s) that restrained him remain(s). Is that behaviour change reliable though? No. Take away the threat of restraint (those individuals), expose him to the same stimulus, the same set of variables (minus the restrainees) and the dog will freak out again.



Poundingpaws said:


> I am guessing this is why the trainer does not want the details of the method discussed over the internet because something that has worked so quickly and permanently is automatically dismissed as abusive/in humane etc and it can get quite unpleasant.


If that is the case, why not put people's minds at rest? Why does this trainer not, as Ouesi suggests, post an unedited video of the method in action and show and explain why it isn't inhumane or abusive? Tell us WHY it works and how it works.

The best practitioners (of many a profession, especially dog trainers/behaviourists) are reflective practitioners. Using peer assessment, feedback and comments they reflect on what they did and look at ways to improve. In fact, sometimes its not even a case of improving, but changing things, trying new approaches, adapting, widening your skills set.
Why a trainer wouldn't want to do that, is beyond me. In refusing it, they are limiting their ability and performance, not to mention transparency with their clients and others.
Yes, sometimes feedback might be harsh or hard to take. But sometimes it is good. You do the same for others. It's the way of the world. You take it all in and continue striving to improve your practice to be the best that you can be.

Nobody knows it all and anyone who claims to, and assumes that they do not need to reflect on their own practice is lying, possibly to themselves and certainly to their clients and those who they have a duty of care to.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

lemmsy said:


> It's more than just "important" it is the key to the source of the whole behaviour, which causes the problem. Let's put this in laymens' terms:
> The dog reacts as he does because he feels a certain way. A fearful or conflicted dog, when he feels he as no other option will loose the plot and make a hell of a display to get the thing to go away.
> I don't like big spiders. If you locked me in a cupboard and put a tarantula on my wrist, you can bet you bottom dollar that I'd be hyperventilating, thrashing my arm about to get it off, and sadly, stamping on it hard when it hit the ground.
> 
> ...


I guess you have answered some of your questions in your post.

If I were to restrain a fearful dog subjecting it to a trigger that he would choose to get away from yes that would be inhumane IMO.

Which is why the dog is assessed prior to choosing a method. My dog would choose to approach a nearby dog if he were reacting and I released the lead. But the dog is assessed thoroughly by a professional before implementing it. It has never made sense to me that my dog reacts out of fear. It became apparent during the assessment that my dog was a confident dog and he was reacting mainly out of habit.

So if I were to describe in detail the technique used to stop my dog reacting and somebody decided that my dog sounds similar to theirs and they subject their dog to a method that potentially has a damaging effect.

This trainer has shown the footage to their peers. It is not a secret, just not described in detail on Internet forums in much the same way as most responsible professionals refuse to give behaviour advise relating to aggression over a forum. Are they withholding information from the rest of forum users that could help? Yes, for safety reasons to mention one. That does not mean they are lying to themselves or anyone else.

We can all openly discuss how d/s and c/c works because worst case scenario is, it doesn't help. We can show video footage, albeit pretty boring. I have used this method with Polo for years and it was slow progress that reached a plateau.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Poundingpaws said:


> I guess you have answered some of your questions in your post.
> 
> If I were to restrain a fearful dog subjecting it to a trigger that he would choose to get away from yes that would be inhumane IMO.


Not only dogs who would choose to get away.
It is equally inhumane to flood and restrain a fearful dog who would choose to run in and poke holes in another dog, for the purpose of training, if you are not going to reduce the intensity of the trigger and get them to safety ASAP. Getting them to that level of distress and expecting them to be able to learn anything constructive is not fair.



Poundingpaws said:


> Which is why the dog is assessed prior to choosing a method. My dog would choose to approach a nearby dog if he were reacting and I released the lead. But the dog is assessed thoroughly by a professional before implementing it. It has never made sense to me that my dog reacts out of fear. It became apparent during the assessment that my dog was a confident dog and he was reacting mainly *out of habit. *


A confident dog doesn't feel the need to approach and react to nearby dogs.

Habit is not an emotional response. As such it is not capable of maintaining a conditioned emotional response (the symptoms of negative emotional response are flight behaviours, reactivity and/or aggression).

Why was your dog reacting to other dogs?



Poundingpaws said:


> This trainer has shown the footage to their peers. It is not a secret, just not described in detail on Internet forums in much the same way as most responsible professionals refuse to give behaviour advise relating to aggression over a forum. Are they withholding information from the rest of forum users that could help? Yes, for safety reasons to mention one. That does not mean they are lying to themselves or anyone else.
> 
> We can all openly discuss how d/s and c/c works because worst case scenario is, it doesn't help. We can show video footage, albeit pretty boring. I have used this method with Polo for years and it was slow progress that reached a plateau.


Ahhh. My error- here's something I missed out. Being a good reflective practitioner means that you don't selectively seek out feedback from peers who you know agree with you or have a vested interest in the method or programme that you are using.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

But...how do you restrain a dog enough that it physically can't react?

I've tried that, not as a training method, just to try and get through that encounter, I can't, the best I can manage is holding him back.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

In all fairness, if Skip reacts to a dog, he's already over threshold. I'm now focusing on managing the situation and the best way to do that is to drag him past the other dog. I don't speak to him, why would I? He's already way over threshold and way too aroused. I may as well not be there. But I will get him out of the situation as fast as possible. I usually do smile at the other dog owner and apologise but that's just me, I don't necessarily need to because right at that moment they're not my concern. My dog is and getting my dog out of that situation is. 

People are way too touchy. My dog reacting to your dog is nothing personal. Don't get so upset about it, because you can bet your boots I'm not upset about it. I'm already being proactive and working on getting my dog out of that state. 

What's the problem? That I (hypothetically) didn't announce to you (general you) that my dog would react from 50 feet away? Nah... You see, to me, that's pre-empting it. I'm working on my dog not being reactive to certain dogs on lead and for all I know, he may not actually react. He's completely under control so even if he does react, it's no skin off your nose. In an ideal world, the situation would never arise, but it does and it sucks! Trust me. But I'm not thinking about anything else other than my dog and how best to get him through it, move on and work to improve. 

Note: He's only reactive towards Brachy breeds, not all dogs and my eyesight is rubbish so usually I wouldn't notice the dog is a Brachy breed until it's too late. There's so many factors that should be considered before judgement is made.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

lemmsy said:


> Not only dogs who would choose to get away.
> It is equally inhumane to flood and restrain a fearful dog who would choose to run in and poke holes in another dog, for the purpose of training, if you are not going to reduce the intensity of the trigger and get them to safety ASAP. Getting them to that level of distress and expecting them to be able to learn anything constructive is not fair.
> 
> A confident dog doesn't feel the need to approach and react to nearby dogs.
> ...


I don't think she has selectively sought out feedback from her peers. I don't know too much about it as it is really not my business.

And sorry but I have heard all the cliches regarding reactive dogs and their behaviour. I looked outside the box. There are possibly a myriad of different reasons why a dog feels the need to react. I can only tell you my dog entered a hall he had not been in before hundreds of miles from home with a bunch of strangers and reacted as I thought he would. Curious, unphased by the bunch of observing strangers (btw he would be reactive to people sometimes too). He explored, checked everybody out to see if they were of interest. Found a dog toy and eventually started lobbing it about.

He holds his tail high and can be confrontational. He will fight but does not put holes I other dogs. He can be pushy and all manner of behaviours. He is not a fearful dog. He lives with 6 other dogs and regularly socialises with approximately 20 or more dogs. In addition to other dog related activities, he has done sheep work and was completely non reactive to the other sheepdogs when in working mode. He can modify his aggressive tendencies towards younger playful dogs etc etc etc

For some reason he felt he had to behave the way he did and now he doesn't. Maybe resource guarding me or his space. Maybe he thought that's what I wanted. We can only guess ultimately. I was happy with the assessment on my dog. It has never made sense to me that my dog was fearful but it's what we are told! It has changed our lives for the better. He is happier. I am happier.

And we are restraining aggressive dogs all the time by the use of a lead. The level of restraint used to help my dog was preventing his reaction. He was and is always free to walk away but I certainly am not going to let him approach and put holes in another dog either way ;-)


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I found B.A.T just doesn't work for us . 

We use the CARE protocol where basically treats rain from the sky  

Believe me it's work in progress sometime we fail but quite often we don't  I will not do anything that make my dog more afraid of a situation than he already is


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

tabulahrasa said:


> But...how do you restrain a dog enough that it physically can't react?
> 
> I've tried that, not as a training method, just to try and get through that encounter, I can't, the best I can manage is holding him back.


Not to mention that some dogs would increase their reaction, or even redirect due to being restrained/restricted.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2016)

B-mod is one of those things that while simple in theory is not so simple in application, and hard to get right. If you don't get it right, it's not going to work, and you won't see progress. I totally get why people get frustrated and seek out other solutions especially when those solutions do work. For them the why simply doesn't matter, they just know the dog is no longer freaking out. It's human nature really.

Not all dogs acting up are behaving out of fear or distress either. The GSD we encountered this morning was not fearful at all, and frankly if it were me on the end of his leash I would have been sorely tempted to growl a "knock it off you big oaf" at him and firmly walk him away from everything that was exciting him, put him back in the car, whatever. And yes, that is punishment, P-, removal of something the dog wants, and I have no problem doing that in that sort of situation with a confident dog who has temporarily lost his marbles. Granted, I would also go back home and work on impulse control and the overall relationship etc.

Had I allowed the encounter the owner asked for, I know without a doubt my dog would have corrected him and continued to do so until either one of us humans intervened or until the point was explicitly made. Not knowing that dog and his experiences with other dogs, I also have no way of knowing what a correction from my dog would do to him. It is possible that he would bounce back from it, learn some caution and carry on, it's possible that now his overexcitement would now be tinged with a bit of apprehension as well. So how do you deal with that now? A dog who appears to "just" need some impulse control and manners, but is also a little fearful too.

It can get complicated - dogs are not simple creatures devoid of emotions and complexities. Dogs feel conflicting emotions, they react differently to the same situation depending on their mood, the environment, who they're with, they have good days and bad days. 
A good trainer with be observant and mindful of all of this, and most importantly as @lemmsy has said, will be reflective of each training scenario and use that information to guide the next one.

I love Suzanne Clothier's take on all of this:
"There is a considerable portion of dog training which is actually thinly disguised abuse. It has little to do with education of an animal, but it does have a lot to do with our egos, our assignment of importance to relatively unimportant actions, and our own deeply seated beliefs about animals. Humane training begins with a critical look at the premises and assumptions which undergird many traditional approaches. We become better trainers by refusing to swallow uncritically what is tossed to us as truth, by developing our powers of empathy and observation, and by searching for better ways to teach and educate the dogs we love."


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> Not to mention that some dogs would increase their reaction, or even redirect due to being restrained/restricted.


Hence why there is no public footage to emulate. The dog and owner is assessed in depth.

My dog is strong. I am small. I've sometimes struggled to hold his lead when he has been throwing himself at the end of it in a frenzy. I guess if you were seriously outweighed or easily overpowered by your dog the method would not be suitable. My dog has bitten me before when reacting to a dog but I was happy to handle him in the way explained. That's not to say with the wrong dog/owner combination redirection is not a risk. Yet another reason not to show the method without an in depth assessment.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> Not to mention that some dogs would increase their reaction, or even redirect due to being restrained/restricted.


He redirects to me all the time anyway.

It's not the ethics of it I'm asking about though...I'm not really looking for yet more help with him just now, I'm good with all the people he already sees, lol,

I'm just confused by the how as I can't work out how you can hold a large dog so that it's unable to react.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Poundingpaws said:


> Hence why there is no public footage to emulate. The dog and owner is assessed in depth.
> 
> My dog is strong. I am small. I've sometimes struggled to hold his lead when he has been throwing himself at the end of it in a frenzy. *I guess if you were seriously outweighed or easily overpowered by your dog the method would not be suitable.* My dog has bitten me before when reacting to a dog but I was happy to handle him in the way explained. That's not to say with the wrong dog/owner combination redirection is not a risk. Yet another reason not to show the method without an in depth assessment.


See that just raises more questions for me. 
My first question would be, why?
Why is the method not suitable for all dogs? (I don't expect you to answer btw  )

I am just a touch over 7 stone and my dog weighs around 40kg. 
Would he be suitable? (just hypothitcally on his size alone)


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2016)

Poundingpaws said:


> Hence why there is no public footage to emulate. The dog and owner is assessed in depth.


The last time you posted about this I said this is a cop-out and I stand by that 
If the trainer doesn't want to share, she doesn't want to share, that's her prerogative. But to come on here and say "I found a great fix for my dog that would probably help a lot of other dogs, but I'm not going to talk about it because I'm not at liberty to" is just a big old cop-out.

I went to a seminar with an excellent trainer, Hannah Brannigan (KPA CTP) who talked about the arousal curve and figuring out your dog's "point of no return" and teaching him/her to go "there" and then be able to come back from it again. Our work included taking Bates "there". Something I would not recommend doing unless under the guidance of someone as skilled as Ms. Brannigan. But she never once said, "please don't discuss this with anyone" or asked me not to show video of the workshop. Again, transparency, disclosure, and all that good stuff. 
Good bite sport trainers post videos all the time of their work, biting isn't something you would teach without professional guidance, but that doesn't stop those trainers from publicizing or discussing their work.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

ouesi said:


> The last time you posted about this I said this is a cop-out and I stand by that
> If the trainer doesn't want to share, she doesn't want to share, that's her prerogative. But to come on here and say "I found a great fix for my dog that would probably help a lot of other dogs, but I'm not going to talk about it because I'm not at liberty to" is just a big old cop-out.
> 
> I went to a seminar with an excellent trainer, Hannah Brannigan (KPA CTP) who talked about the arousal curve and figuring out your dog's "point of no return" and teaching him/her to go "there" and then be able to come back from it again. Our work included taking Bates "there". Something I would not recommend doing unless under the guidance of someone as skilled as Ms. Brannigan. But she never once said, "please don't discuss this with anyone" or asked me not to show video of the workshop. Again, transparency, disclosure, and all that good stuff.
> Good bite sport trainers post videos all the time of their work, biting isn't something you would teach without professional guidance, but that doesn't stop those trainers from publicizing or discussing their work.


I don't see it as a cop out. Again, she didn't ask me not to discuss it or show the footage. Just not to strangers on an Internet forum.

I started out by making the point that I used DS & CC for years without ' curing' my dog. To read people making dismissive comments about a reacting dog that to he owner is clearly not trying annoys me.

So the method I employed would have been seen to be far more proactive as I would have stopped my dog and indeed have in front of other members of the public. I have been thanked for it but not accused of cruelty I can assure you as it actually looks like I am possibly reassuring my dog and calming him down.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Poundingpaws said:


> I don't see it as a cop out. Again, she didn't ask me not to discuss it or show the footage. Just not to strangers on an Internet forum.
> 
> I started out by making the point that I used DS & CC for years without ' curing' my dog. To read people making dismissive comments about a reacting dog that to he owner is clearly not trying annoys me.
> 
> So the method I employed would have been seen to be far more proactive as I would have stopped my dog and indeed have in front of other members of the public. I have been thanked for it but not accused of cruelty I can assure you as it actually looks like I am possibly reassuring my dog and calming him down.


 She really must be up there with the trainers , if you/she won't reveal this secret you have

I look forward to her book ;-)


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Why does it matter if a complete stranger thinks you are being proactive or not?
So long as the dog is under control (as in leashed), and the dog isn't able to cause injury to humans or other dogs. What does it matter what others think?


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> She really must be up there with the trainers , if you/she won't reveal this secret you have
> 
> I look forward to her book ;-)


Me too ;-)


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> Why does it matter if a complete stranger thinks you are being proactive or not?
> So long as the dog is under control (as in leashed), and the dog isn't able to cause injury to humans or other dogs. What does it matter what others think?


It doesn't but clearly it bothers others!


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2016)

Poundingpaws said:


> I don't see it as a cop out. Again, she didn't ask me not to discuss it or show the footage. Just not to strangers on an Internet forum.


I know you don't. We disagree on this point. 'sokay 
I just don't see the point of basically saying "hey I found this great thing to help my dog, but I can't tell you anything about it" on a *discussion* forum 
Either it's a good method worth sharing and discussing, tweaking for an individual dog, etc., or there is something going on there that the trainer has good reason to not want to disclose. Frankly I would bet the trainer is fine with her method being discussed... It's not like she can control that anyway...


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Normally, if someone is marketing a 'product' or service, which has proved to be effective, they are very keen to get the word out.

I too find it rather odd that this person has found the key to solving reactive behaviour in dogs, yours included, yet her clients have to remain silent about it.

If she's proud of her method and it's proven, why the cloak of secrecy?

Don't make sense to me I'm afraid.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I went to a seminar with an excellent trainer, Hannah Brannigan (KPA CTP) who talked about the arousal curve and figuring out your dog's "point of no return" and teaching him/her to go "there" and then be able to come back from it again. .


But how do you bring a dog back from there ?


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> But how do you bring a dog back from there ?


In very very simplified terms: practice. 
You start small, slight arousal, and then cue the dog to chill back out (you have already created a relaxation cue - relax on a mat is where we star), watch, and by watch I mean really watch, like we're looking for pupil size, relaxed feet, teeny tiny details, help the dog as needed, and if he's able to bring himself down from the slight arousal, you can try again with more arousal. It's basically impulse control level expert 
But basically the more the dog is able to practice de-escalating themselves, the better they will get at de-escalation. Of course the reverse is also true, the more practice the dog gets at arousal, the easier it is for him to get there too. So you have to make sure the arousals you practice are purposeful and useful to your particular needs.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

OIC Thanks.  

I don't think I would be able to cope with that. That's one of the problems that Behaviourists face with clients, how capable are they of understanding and following the protocol.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> OIC Thanks.
> 
> I don't think I would be able to cope with that. That's one of the problems that Behaviourists face with clients, how capable are they of understanding and following the protocol.


Too true. We had already done a lot of work with some other great trainers that I'm privileged to know and work with, so the foundation was there, she just helped push us to the next level.

The dog in question is now 7 years old and pretty much bombproof. I'm so grateful for the lessons I've leaned through him and because of him.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I know you don't. We disagree on this point. 'sokay
> I just don't see the point of basically saying "hey I found this great thing to help my dog, but I can't tell you anything about it" on a *discussion* forum
> Either it's a good method worth sharing and discussing, tweaking for an individual dog, etc., or there is something going on there that the trainer has good reason to not want to disclose. Frankly I would bet the trainer is fine with her method being discussed... It's not like she can control that anyway...


I didn't really. I would have started a thread I guess. I've always joined threads regarding reactive dogs as I find it interesting. It's hard not to say we finally solved it. I suppose it's intriguing and frustrating for people that read it, maybe.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2016)

Poundingpaws said:


> I didn't really. I would have started a thread I guess. I've always joined threads regarding reactive dogs as I find it interesting. It's hard not to say we finally solved it. I suppose it's intriguing and frustrating for people that read it, maybe.


To me neither frustrating nor intriguing, just pointless really.

Do you see what happened above? I mentioned something that happened at a seminar, something that really only should be done under the guidance of someone with the requisite skills. Kimthecat asked a perfectly legitimate question about it, I answered honestly, she realized that wasn't for her. There was a useful discussion, no secrecy, information shared.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah maybe pointless. I think it's sleep deprivation.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I occasionally see someone walking two terriers, both on lead. The times that I have, it's been at a spot where the furthest apart we can get is roughly 10 feet.

I keep Jack on the far side, on a short, but relaxed leash and keep walking calmly. Jack's body language is always non-confrontational, I believe.

One of the terriers is non-reactive, the other is manic. It redirects onto the other terrier, quite ferociously, it seems. Maybe it's all slobber and noise, maybe not.

Surely, that owner should work on changing this dog's behaviour? Not for me or my dog, but the other little terrier that gets roughed up on a regular basis. Time may come when he has *TWO *ferocious/highly stressed beasts on the end of their leads.

The owner is usually apologetic and embarrassed. I smile and tell him not to worry.

If the owner has tried everything and failed, I sympathise, but I can't understand why anyone would continue to walk both dogs in this way?

Unpleasant for *everyone. *The terrier "punch bag", in particular 

Maybe if the dog(s) were bigger, heavier and harder to keep hold of?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Poundingpaws said:


> Yeah maybe pointless. I think it's sleep deprivation.


TBH I think in most threads there are posts that I think are pointless for all sorts of reasons( I've posted pointless posts myself) but that's the way it goes. I don't think post about your trainer and your experience were pointless, 
I like seeing the photos and hearing that it helped you , you honoured your trainers wish and you told people they can PM you.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> She really must be up there with the trainers , if you/she won't reveal this secret you have
> 
> I look forward to her book ;-)


The book has now been published. The technique is described in the book.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Poundingpaws That's good . Can you remind me who the trainer is and what the book is called?


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2016)

Poundingpaws said:


> The book has now been published. The technique is described in the book.


Does the book have a title and an author? Care to share those?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Poundingpaws said:


> The book has now been published. The technique is described in the book.


Oh awesome. I know we both spoke at length about this trainer and her methods and I'm definitely interested to read her book


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Does the book have a title and an author? Care to share those?


A Dog Behaviourist's Diary by Denise McLeod .


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

htt


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Really looking forward to reading the book as Denise has a great writing style. I've ordered my copy from her website at Cadelac dog training.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Had a feeling it was Denise you were talking about. Have a feeling the method is likely to be quite controversial too if it's the same one she used when I spoke with her about Rupert.


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

Reading this with interest. Is she then describing 'controversial' methods in her book? I do not feel inclined to spend money on the book until I have confirmation it has something new, and acceptable, in it for me. It must be quite difficult to write about methods which have not been described somewhere else before in our media saturated environment.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Fascinated to know about this method too....


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

planete said:


> Reading this with interest. Is she then describing 'controversial' methods in her book? I do not feel inclined to spend money on the book until I have confirmation it has something new, and acceptable, in it for me. It must be quite difficult to write about methods which have not been described somewhere else before in our media saturated environment.


I'll be getting the book when I can. I like Denise and am interested in reading it although I may not necessarily agree with everything she says. Amazon says it's unavailable at the moment though. Obviously I can't say for sure that it is the method I saw her use although I know she'd had a lot of success with that one.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Denises site says the book isn't available until October with the ebook coming in September, perhaps earlier.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> Had a feeling it was Denise you were talking about. Have a feeling the method is likely to be quite controversial too if it's the same one she used when I spoke with her about Rupert.


Can you share what that was?
I remember when BAT came out it was considered controversial also, but it's one of those things that really depends on how you implement it and paying attention to how the dog responds.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Can you share what that was?
> I remember when BAT came out it was considered controversial also, but it's one of those things that really depends on how you implement it and paying attention to how the dog responds.


To be honest I wouldn't even know where to start describing it and never actually used it myself (sort of thing that would have shut Rupert down but wouldn't phase Spen one bit). That's if it's even the same method I saw, for all I know it could be something completely different. And even if it is the same I have no idea whether she's tweaked it over the years or not.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

I've seen a preview of a couple of chapters and it's a fascinating and entertaining book. I'm looking forward to reading it as I do like the way Denise expresses herself. You definitely are right there with her when she is describing a scenario. Bit of a tear jerker as well I think.

I suppose the technique she taught me with Polo could be controversial. Saying no to your dog can cause controversy lol so anything a bit different will. Agreed BAT causes some controversy but I am happy to use it. 

Sarah the method, if it was the same one, could possibly shut the wrong dog down and it is not suitable for every dog but I had a dog shut down at the sound of a clicker, in fact, at the sound of a muffled biro click from my pocket.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

@ouesi, I think @Poundingpaws would be happy to discuss the method with you if you ask. We spoke at length about it, and while it is perhaps controversial, the trainer does seem quite knowledgeable and savvy as to what kind of dogs to use it on. I had some doubts myself, and still do, but I'm interested to read the book.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> I'll be getting the book when I can. I like Denise and am interested in reading it although I may not necessarily agree with everything she says. Amazon says it's unavailable at the moment though. Obviously I can't say for sure that it is the method I saw her use although I know she'd had a lot of success with that one.


It is available to preorder Sarah. If you do buy it, buy it from Cadelac website as Denise actually loses money through Amazon as it costs more to print than she makes through Amazon!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Poundingpaws said:


> Sarah the method, if it was the same one, could possibly shut the wrong dog down and it is not suitable for every dog but I had a dog shut down at the sound of a clicker, in fact, at the sound of a muffled biro click from my pocket.


I think any method has the potential to shut down a dog, especially if used incorrectly. As I say, if it's the same method then it's not something I was comfortable using with Rupert but the dogs I saw it used on certainly weren't shut down.

I too like the way Denise expresses herself. I can't say I'm always in agreement with her but from what I've seen for myself I'd be comfortable taking her classes. If I do buy the book I'll order from her site rather than Amazon.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

I was just looking at something on google and I found this thread, I read through it with interest . I am the person who Poundingpaws came to see. My name is Denise Mcleod and I own CaDeLac dog training and behaviour. The technique that was used with Polo is something that I developed myself, but since writing about it in my book and having a number of other dog trainers read the relevant chapters before sending it to print - I find that there are at least 2 other people who know of a very similar technique. 

It has never been the case that I don't want people to use it, and have therefore kept it quiet at all. quite the contrary. I have always wanted to speak of it and share it. I have now released it in my forthcoming book as a case study, but which also has an appendix that gives guidelines as to its use. 

In answer to the question that was raised 'Why is it not suitable for every dog?', the answer is, 'no method is suitable for every dog'. Success often depends on the dog trusting and liking the owner and them having a good relationship - that is not always the case. Success is also dependant on the owner having time the following few days to dedicate to that dog, to go and seek out other dogs to roof the process. At the beginning this technique is a one on one process. So handlers could not do it with multiple dogs - not all owners have time to walk their dogs separately for a few days. There is also a risk of redirection as there is with any method that doesn't include a muzzle, but with this technique the chances are higher as the dog is calmed at the point of high arousal. It may also fail if the dog is practising reactivity anywhere else, behind a gate, fence, window, or from the car. .

The technique, as described does work by halting the behaviour dead. It is neither positive nor negative in nature, it is a subjective choice, the dog being the subject in question. It is by nature neutral. It simply halts the reactivity. Imagine you wanted to pick up your mug of tea from your table and I put my hand in the way as you reached out, meaning you couldn't touch the mug. What would you do. Pause? Then I move my hand and you reach out again, as soon as you do, I put my hand in the way again. If we repeat this, at some point you will stop reaching for the mug and do something else instead. If whatever you did next turned out to be more rewarding than the mug of tea... you'd be a happy bunny. That is what happened to Polo.

When the dog choses to no longer try to react, then it is left with only 3 choices. Engage with owner, engage with environment, or engage with the other dogs. Some dogs cease reacting and begin playing with the previously shouted at, dog. All dogs feel better afterwards. They realise that reacting is no longer necessary and a happy owner and happy outcome is much more pleasant than leaping and barking and yanking themselves sore.

If anyone has any questions feel free to ask me. I've not been on this forum for many years, so I am a bit rusty at finding my way around. But I will pop on as often as I can. Regards, Denise


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> In very very simplified terms: practice.
> You start small, slight arousal, and then cue the dog to chill back out (you have already created a relaxation cue - relax on a mat is where we star), watch, and by watch I mean really watch, like we're looking for pupil size, relaxed feet, teeny tiny details, help the dog as needed, and if he's able to bring himself down from the slight arousal, you can try again with more arousal. It's basically impulse control level expert
> But basically the more the dog is able to practice de-escalating themselves, the better they will get at de-escalation. Of course the reverse is also true, the more practice the dog gets at arousal, the easier it is for him to get there too. So you have to make sure the arousals you practice are purposeful and useful to your particular needs.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

Its actually often very easy to get a dog back from there. Science has long since told us that emotional states are linked to physical posture and facial expressions. They are linked in either direction so emotional state is affected by stance And stance is affected by emotional state. When you alter the body posture and the sensory input, as this technique does, then the underlying emotional state is down graded to a place of calm (er). The dog learns that it can be calm through repetition. If every time it reacts you stop it and bring it back immediately to a rep conditioned emotional response, you lower the arousal instantly back to virtually zero, Each time you interrupt it faster and you are bringing the dog back to a low emotional state faster. And after a few reps the emotional state doesn't elevate at all. 


And then because the dog can not continue to react it HAS to do something else. The options available are try to be friendly with the dog as often happens, or engage with the owner and forget the dog, or engage with the environment and forget the dog. If at that pint the owner raises and stays calm the dog begin to realise that 1) there is no threat (the stooge dog is still stood calmly), 2) Being calm and peaceful is a lot more pleasant than leaping and barking and 3) my owner looks a lot happier and may or may not reward with food (owner choice) .

IF you have any questions feel free to shout up. Regards Denise


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> In very very simplified terms: practice.
> You start small, slight arousal, and then cue the dog to chill back out (you have already created a relaxation cue - relax on a mat is where we star), watch, and by watch I mean really watch, like we're looking for pupil size, relaxed feet, teeny tiny details, help the dog as needed, and if he's able to bring himself down from the slight arousal, you can try again with more arousal. It's basically impulse control level expert
> But basically the more the dog is able to practice de-escalating themselves, the better they will get at de-escalation. Of course the reverse is also true, the more practice the dog gets at arousal, the easier it is for him to get there too. So you have to make sure the arousals you practice are purposeful and useful to your particular needs.


I not sure if you are trying to explain my technique ot yours. If its mine then we start at the point of high arousal and then bring it to zero, allow the dog to re-escalate, then we zero it and we repeat until the dog decides to not bother with the arousal anymore. Then we reward.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> I not sure if you are trying to explain my technique ot yours. If its mine then we start at the point of high arousal and then bring it to zero, allow the dog to re-escalate, then we zero it and we repeat until the dog decides to not bother with the arousal anymore. Then we reward.


Neither 
I was describing working a dog in arousal as I was coached by Hannah Brannigan at a seminar, though the technique is not unique to her either.

I don't want a dog who doesn't bother with arousal. There are times when I need for my dog to work with me while in an excited state, so we practice that.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

I'm not sure if I have the capability buy I will try to upload a video of 2 dogs that came in together for reactivity. Assessment revealed that actually it was only one dog reacting the other was mimicking that one so we only needed to treat the older dog. I will upload the very brief assessment where we allow the case dogs to do whatever they like so we can read their intentions. Hang on Ill give it a whirl.https://www.facebook.com/denise.c.mcleod/videos/vb.616267782/10154332815302783/?type=3


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Neither
> I was describing working a dog in arousal as I was coached by Hannah Brannigan at a seminar, though the technique is not unique to her either.
> 
> I don't want a dog who doesn't bother with arousal. There are times when I need for my dog to work with me while in an excited state, so we practice that.


HI, The technique doesn't stop the dog from arousing, it gives it time to work out whether arousal is helpful, or necessary in any situation. It would not for instance stop a dog from reacting to an incoming rude, overly sexed lab, that came into its lead space, It simply allows the dog to reconsider how necessary reaction to each dog is. When a dog is in a habit mode (what does your dog do when it sees a cat - usually follows a habit for example) or when it sees a biscuit - a habitually hard wired response. When it is in a habit mode, it doesn't have the capacity to consider other options, when I is brought back to a place of calm contemplation, in thinking mode,
it does!


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> HI, The technique doesn't stop the dog from arousing, it gives it time to work out whether arousal is helpful, or necessary in any situation. It would not for instance stop a dog from reacting to an incoming rude, overly sexed lab, that came into its lead space, It simply allows the dog to reconsider how necessary reaction to each dog is. When a dog is in a habit mode (what does your dog do when it sees a cat - usually follows a habit for example) or when it sees a biscuit - a habitually hard wired response. When it is in a habit mode, it doesn't have the capacity to consider other options, when I is brought back to a place of calm contemplation, in thinking mode,
> it does!


I'm not criticizing your technique. I don't know what your technique is 
I was simply answering your question - if I was explaining your technique. I wasn't. Nor was I explaining my own technique. I was simply sharing what I had learned working with an excellent trainer. 
We weren't working on reactivity to other dogs either.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> I'm not criticizing your technique. I don't know what your technique is
> I was simply answering your question - if I was explaining your technique. I wasn't. Nor was I explaining my own technique. I was simply sharing what I had learned working with an excellent trainer.
> We weren't working on reactivity to other dogs either.


No worries, I didn't think you where. I was just clarifying the point.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@CaDeLac Denise its very hard to know whether I have any questions when I don't know what the technique is. The conversation seems to be in riddles that only a select few may understand.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> @CaDeLac Denise its very hard to know whether I have any questions when I don't know what the technique is. The conversation seems to be in riddles that only a select few may understand.


I'm sorry it seems that way. I've just written about 15,000 words in my book to describe what it is, how it works, why it works and how to use it. It isn't easy to condense 15,000 words into a single post on a forum! It is a uncommon techniques that many will not be familiar with. it isn't easy to describe it as it is so open to misinterpretation. But basically when the dog reacts we reposition the dog to face the handle and block out the incoming visual and audial input. The dogs emotional state changes as it is now held in the owners hands (This is why a good relationship with dog and owner is crucial), and if its familiarity with the owner is one of pleasant interaction then it will adopt that emotional state . The sensory input is obscured and diminished, so although the reactive dog may know that there is a stooge dog there, its main incoming data, is 'owner is behaving as if we are calm at home and no dog present'. So ultimately that is the stance and emotional state that the dog adopts. The same one as is there when the handle needs to still and calm a dog to brush it or remove brambles.

Imagine you went to a massage parlour every week and you loved it. After a while the very touch of the massage table would calm you. Same as this technique.

If it is not liking being handled by its owner for grooming, health checks, towel drying having thorns removed etc, then it isn't a suitable technique. 
I hope that helps. I really cant explain the technique in a forum post. No more than anyone who has written about a unique or very little known technique.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> @CaDeLac Denise its very hard to know whether I have any questions when I don't know what the technique is. The conversation seems to be in riddles that only a select few may understand.


Snap!
I guess my question would be...what is used to bring them back down to zero? Which is probably a root question of what the technique even is.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

Kimmikins said:


> Snap!
> I guess my question would be...what is used to bring them back down to zero? Which is probably a root question of what the technique even is.


From what I can tell, after thorough evaluation and creating a positive association with having the face handled, the dog is held by the face in such a way that the eyes and ears are blocked, which lessens the reactivity.

Sounds a little like one of Leslie McDevitt's techniques (Control Unleashed) where you use a nose to palm touch that also helps block the visual stimulation. I think it's Leslie McDevitt... Might be Susan Garrett?

In any case, somewhere along the line I did get in to the habit of using a touch cue to help guide dogs around tight spaces with other dogs and lots of stuff going on, the palm touch is a cue taught with R+ so there is a conditioned positive emotional response to the cue itself, and the hand in front of the face helps block visual cues. 
I don't know that I would want to grab my dog's head with both hands, but as @CaDeLac Denise says, it's not for everyone or every dog....

I like for dogs to have more of an element of choice - at least that is what has been more successful for me and my dogs. A palm touch is a cue they can choose in that the dog is the one who puts his nose on my palm, not me putting my hands on the dog. I know it's a subtle distinction, but I feel like that small distinction makes a huge difference for the dog and their "okayness" with the whole thing. 
Giving the dog autonomy seems to help their confidence too. Since a lot of reactivity is based in lack of confidence, allowing the dog to choose to push in to your palm as opposed to the handler putting hands on the dog seems to build that confidence better.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> From what I can tell, after thorough evaluation and creating a positive association with having the face handled, the dog is held by the face in such a way that the eyes and ears are blocked, which lessens the reactivity.
> 
> Sounds a little like one of Leslie McDevitt's techniques (Control Unleashed) where you use a nose to palm touch that also helps block the visual stimulation. I think it's Leslie McDevitt... Might be Susan Garrett?
> 
> ...


It sounds an interesting technique that you speak of. I am curious at your last comment. You say that a lot of reactivity is based on lack of confidence (which is not the case in most of the dogs that I see), but also that you feel the hand palm touch can 'build that confidence better' - I assume therefore that you have already seen and tried my technique to make that statement. That the other technique is 'better'. Can I ask where you saw my technique then please? Really interested, where else it has been demo'd. Thank you for your very interesting and informative comments. Much appreciated! D


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> From what I can tell, after thorough evaluation and creating a positive association with having the face handled, the dog is held by the face in such a way that the eyes and ears are blocked, which lessens the reactivity.
> 
> Sounds a little like one of Leslie McDevitt's techniques (Control Unleashed) where you use a nose to palm touch that also helps block the visual stimulation. I think it's Leslie McDevitt... Might be Susan Garrett?
> 
> ...


Oh and also, the technique doesn't require holding of the face. The wrists are used to block the vision. but it is the dogs collar that is held. Interestingly, IN some dogs they then choose themselves to reposition their heads and bodies, once they have found comfort in this place. Its a very interesting process.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

Kimmikins said:


> Snap!
> I guess my question would be...what is used to bring them back down to zero? Which is probably a root question of what the technique even is.


As I said its not easy to explain in just a few words. On a forum. When the visual input is radically reduced and the sound obscured and the dog is facing their owner, there is nothing to react to. The sensory input is consistent with being calm and still. So they become calm and still.

In other words, if a cue disappears then the response disappears. and the emotional state changes accordingly. When it is repeated several times in quick succession the new emotional state begins to hard wire in response to the original stimulus. Lets say you hate digging weeds up in the garden. Stimulus is digging, emotion is distaste. Lets say you dig the garden and find a bowl of buried treasure, its pure gold and worth thousands of pounds, then you dig again and find more. Dig again you find more still. How do you feel now about digging up weeds now?


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> It sounds an interesting technique that you speak of. I am curious at your last comment. You say that a lot of reactivity is based on lack of confidence (which is not the case in most of the dogs that I see), but also that you feel the hand palm touch can 'build that confidence better' - I assume therefore that you have already seen and tried my technique to make that statement. That the other technique is 'better'. Can I ask where you saw my technique then please? Really interested, where else it has been demo'd. Thank you for your very interesting and informative comments. Much appreciated! D


You posted a video, I searched your page for other videos, saw the one where the dog's face is being grabbed, and read your post on here where you said:


CaDeLac Denise said:


> But basically when the dog reacts we reposition the dog to face the handle and block out the incoming visual and audial input. The dogs emotional state changes as it is now held in the owners hands


When I said "better" I meant dogs who are given autonomy and choice (as appropriate) tend to build confidence better than dogs who are not given autonomy and choice.

In the video you posted I would agree with you that the dog did not appear to be lacking in confidence, IMO just not begin told not to be an ass. But I'll get myself in trouble because if the dog is just being an idiot, I have no problem with telling him to knock it off, or simply not give them the option to react by employing other trained behaviors.

But then again to me that's not really "reactivity" on the dog's part, it's just poor handling on the owner's part (see, I told you I'd get myself in trouble). 
To me reactivity is a dog who is genuinely afraid and needs CC/DS protocols and help feeling safe.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> From what I can tell, after thorough evaluation and creating a positive association with having the face handled, the dog is held by the face in such a way that the eyes and ears are blocked, which lessens the reactivity.
> 
> Sounds a little like one of Leslie McDevitt's techniques (Control Unleashed) where you use a nose to palm touch that also helps block the visual stimulation. I think it's Leslie McDevitt... Might be Susan Garrett?
> 
> ...


Sorry to harp on about this, but I have reread your post several times and each time a become more curious. I really like the idea of this palm touch you speak of, I can see how that can be a useful tool. Some of mine are trained to watch a specific knuckle joint. Fascinating process. Anyway, can I ask, with this technique you speak of ; The palm touch one. What does an owner do if they encounter a dog that upsets their reactive dog, and they offer the palm touch as an option, but the dog declines the offer. You say you want your dog to chose, what do you do if it is reacting and it choses NOT to palm touch. What happens then in the technique? I'm very interested in all techniques, but I cant see how your one works, in the event of the dog making the choice that you didn't want it to make? what do you do then? Thanks for the ideas anyway. Loving this thread and the people on it! Thanks everyone.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

I just wrote a massive reply and then lost it so I'm giving up for tonight. Good night everyone. My advice is. if you have already made up your mind that the techniques you know thus far in your life are 100% satisfactory and there is nothing better out there, then stick with what you've got. It sounds great1 If you have tried those and they didn't work and you still want to improve your dogs life, then look at every other technique available, THEN condone or condemn it, THEN if you find you cant condemn it, then Try it. Then decide. Decide on things you have experienced. Not things you haven't
.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Sorry to harp on about this, but I have reread your post several times and each time a become more curious. I really like the idea of this palm touch you speak of, I can see how that can be a useful tool. Some of mine are trained to watch a specific knuckle joint. Fascinating process. Anyway, can I ask, with this technique you speak of ; The palm touch one. What does an owner do if they encounter a dog that upsets their reactive dog, and they offer the palm touch as an option, but the dog declines the offer. You say you want your dog to chose, what do you do if it is reacting and it choses NOT to palm touch. What happens then in the technique? I'm very interested in all techniques, but I cant see how your one works, in the event of the dog making the choice that you didn't want it to make? what do you do then? Thanks for the ideas anyway. Loving this thread and the people on it! Thanks everyone.


Okay, I really don't remember who's technique the palm touch is, or if it's even just one person's. I know Leslie McDevitt has a lot of great reactivity tools in her book "Control Unleashed" and Susan Garrett uses a palm touch where you really get the dog pushing in to your hand hard with her recallers games. But I want to say I've seen other trainers use similar - Denise Fenzi too perhaps? 
Anyway, it's not really a technique, it's simply building up a really solid "touch" behavior that you then use as needed to get through potentially distracting situations. That your hand happens to be in front of the dog's face is just an added bonus as it helps block visual stimuli.

If the dog chooses not to comply with the cue, you do whatever you need to do, get your dog out of the situation, and then go home and train more effectively. I mean, what do you do in any situation where training fails? Make mental notes and then endeavor to fix it based on the holes you discover in your training right?

What do you do if your method fails?


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

There are too many quotes to be able to quote, but I do want to mention the touch command and the element of choice, which I have come to see is incredibly important in dogs with fear/nervous reactivity. Like Fidget.
(On a side note many of the dogs I know with reactivity are reactive due to lack of confidence, or anxiety, or fear)

If you were to manhandle him...which, I haven't seen the videos so I'm not going to imply that's what this technique involves, but if you were to physically try to coerce him into a different body position and then encourage him to stay there by holding onto his collar, he's either going to shut down, having lost all trust in you because you've taken away his opportunity to decide for himself what to do. Or he's going to decide that, actually, he's really not comfortable with this whole scenario. This, in lower level dogs who haven't had to escalate their behaviour, might result in some serious lip licking, or a grumble....Fidget will redirect onto whatever is close. Because in his reactive state he is not thinking about how the person physically coercing him and encouraging him to face away from something he'd actually like to keep an eye on to make sure it doesn't do anything scary is doing it because they know best and want to help him not be a douche. In his reactive state he just isn't thinking. He's reacting. 

The Palm touch (we call it Push It) gives him the choice to either touch my hand with his nose, or carry on doing whatever he's doing...well it will once it's solid enough to use outside of the house, garden and his happy field! If he chooses to carry on his shenanigans, that's his prerogative. I will wait it out and reward him when he stops making himself look like a tit. His face when he makes a good choice, and I've let him know it's a good choice, is everything. He has become a far more confident dog by giving him the opportunities to make good choices.


I'm glad you are very clear in stating its not for every dog; I would hate for people with dogs like Fidgey to be lulled into thinking that this is a suitable method for dogs like them. I hope the dogs that are deemed suitable find it helpful. It sounds like the wrists are used like a thunder cap or blinkers on a horse?


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Okay, I really don't remember who's technique the palm touch is, or if it's even just one person's. I know Leslie McDevitt has a lot of great reactivity tools in her book "Control Unleashed" and Susan Garrett uses a palm touch where you really get the dog pushing in to your hand hard with her recallers games. But I want to say I've seen other trainers use similar - Denise Fenzi too perhaps?
> Anyway, it's not really a technique, it's simply building up a really solid "touch" behavior that you then use as needed to get through potentially distracting situations. That your hand happens to be in front of the dog's face is just an added bonus as it helps block visual stimuli.
> 
> If the dog chooses not to comply with the cue, you do whatever you need to do, get your dog out of the situation, and then go home and train more effectively. I mean, what do you do in any situation where training fails? Make mental notes and then endeavor to fix it based on the holes you discover in your training right?
> ...


 It doesn't really fail that often to be honest, it always stops the reactivity to any given dog. Though occasionally it doesn't generalise immediately. If that is the case then we revert to any other method that will suit the dog. But we tend to see it at the assessment stage, so are able to change the technique before the owner goes out on their own. Hand touching is a great training technique, I use it as hand watching for obedience, but it does really on the dog making the choice to of that. the hole point of habit based reactivity is that whilst a dog is in a habit loop (Stimulus trigger, initiates reactivity, without thought), then it hasn't got any choices. The choice part of the brain is closed down already, because its in a habit loop that doesn't provide for choices. That is the whole point. This technique gets the dog out of the habit loop and back into thinking mode so that it then CAN MAKE CHOICES!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

This is all quite interesting to me, considering I have a reactive dog. About a year ago I changed tack and now squish him between my legs whilst hugging him on sight of another dog, we now have no screaming, no barking, no full blown over excitement, and he now turns to me to make him feel safer and I oblige. Not a technique anyone taught me, but having seen how me hugging him made him not bark at passing dogs out of the living room window, I just moved it outside.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

Kimmikins said:


> There are too many quotes to be able to quote, but I do want to mention the touch command and the element of choice, which I have come to see is incredibly important in dogs with fear/nervous reactivity. Like Fidget.
> (On a side note many of the dogs I know with reactivity are reactive due to lack of confidence, or anxiety, or fear)
> 
> If you were to manhandle him...which, I haven't seen the videos so I'm not going to imply that's what this technique involves, but if you were to physically try to coerce him into a different body position and then encourage him to stay there by holding onto his collar, he's either going to shut down, having lost all trust in you because you've taken away his opportunity to decide for himself what to do. Or he's going to decide that, actually, he's really not comfortable with this whole scenario. This, in lower level dogs who haven't had to escalate their behaviour, might result in some serious lip licking, or a grumble....Fidget will redirect onto whatever is close. Because in his reactive state he is not thinking about how the person physically coercing him and encouraging him to face away from something he'd actually like to keep an eye on to make sure it doesn't do anything scary is doing it because they know best and want to help him not be a douche. In his reactive state he just isn't thinking. He's reacting.
> ...


Kimmikins, in most cases that I see reactivity is definitely NOT based fear or nervousness. That I believe is a fallacy that is spread about. I do not usually use this technique on dogs that are known to redirect.

You talk of allowing your dog to make the choice to continue reacting and carrying on his shinanigins. Allowing a dog to continue its reactivity obviously further improves the hard wired connection between stimulus (usually seeing an oncoming dog) and reactive behaviour. The dog never gets chance to see that it is possible to separate the two things and apply thought to the situation. My technique, unwires the connection between stimulus and reactivity and rewires it as stimulus, calm, choose, and then either engage with owner, engage with environment or engage with other dog and play. . Choices are important but a dog can not MAKE A CHOICE if it is taken over by a habit loop. That is what a habit loop is, an automated process which disables thought processes! This technique puts the dog in a position of choice!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

Lexiedhb said:


> This is all quite interesting to me, considering I have a reactive dog. About a year ago I changed tack and now squish him between my legs whilst hugging him on sight of another dog, we now have no screaming, no barking, no full blown over excitement, and he now turns to me to make him feel safer and I oblige. Not a technique anyone taught me, but having seen how me hugging him made him not bark at passing dogs out of the living room window, I just moved it outside.


Well done you ! It sounds like you have discovered your own technique which sounds similar to mine. That makes you the fourth person in the world I know of, to discover the same process by accident. . I'm glad to hear you no longer have a screaming and shouting match with your dog! Well done you!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Well done you ! It sounds like you have discovered your own technique which sounds similar to mine. That makes you the fourth person in the world I know of, to discover the same process by accident. . I'm glad to hear you no longer have a screaming and shouting match with your dog! Well done you!


Bloody revelation....... me and my dog walking friends were like - "how did we not think of this before"........... clearly I trust him not to redirect - but then he is a bullbreed so unlikely, and clearly he is under confident - despite the bravado - as he wants me to sort it for him/ make him feel safer as he doesnt know how to deal with the situation himself. He's clearly not very good at the whole "work it out for yourself" type stuff....... we have spent HOURS attempting to do the "card board box" games Bless him


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

Shut Down. There have been a number of people raising the issue of shut down as a potential result of this technique. I first used this technique, by accident, 39 years ago and I've been using it ever since, for most reactive dogs I've seen. I've also used it for very fearful ones - it stops fear arousal too. I'm not entirely sure how many dogs I've successfully used it on but it must number in the hundreds. 

On no occasion has any dog ever shut down. I appreciate that people may not like the sound of the technique, or they might have better techniques (If so, please let me know what they are), but my priority is to resolve reactivity cases with the most effective and overall kindest method I know. And this is it!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

Lexiedhb said:


> Bloody revelation....... me and my dog walking friends were like - "how did we not think of this before"........... clearly I trust him not to redirect - but then he is a bullbreed so unlikely, and clearly he is under confident - despite the bravado - as he wants me to sort it for him/ make him feel safer as he doesnt know how to deal with the situation himself. He's clearly not very good at the whole "work it out for yourself" type stuff....... we have spent HOURS attempting to do the "card board box" games Bless him


Lexiedhb. It is my belief that the use of food, praise, toys, turning away, creating distance or going in the opposite direction - actually perpetuates and encourages reactivity. Most dogs come to think of it as what the handler WANTS them to do. I've written a Facebook status about it somewhere, ill try to find it and load it here. Well done anyway! it is obvious once its pointed out, this technique, and it employs fairly standard handling techniques for handling wild, frightened, or angry animals. I'm surprised that the dog world doesn't approach fearful or highly aroused animals in the same way that the rest of the world approaches fearful or highly aroused animals. Contain, relax and release. Standard processes for animal handling. Its a very interesting world .


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

And for those that watched the first video here are the same two dogs, about 10 minutes later, walking into a room full of dogs, my top level obedience class, which had someone else instructing it at the time. 
https://www.facebook.com/denise.c.mcleod/videos/vb.616267782/10154332854802783/?type=3&theater


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Just wanted to be clear, me "hugging" my dog has not "cured" him of his reactivity, it is still a management protocol, to avoid full melt down. I still have to do it with every single dog we see....... Unless a dog found the hugging bit really really unpleasant then I dont understand how it can change an ingrained behaviour in ten minutes if the dog is not shut down......


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

Also, a facebook post I recently made which had a lot of people asking questions. It may be of interest to some...

Dog to dog/people reactivity is often quoted as based upon fear and or anxiety. I see more reactive cases than most and in my experience this simply is not true.... In most cases of reactivity that I see whether it be toward humans, dogs or both, it is merely a habit that has formed. Nothing more.

At the very beginning of the problem, one day the dog had good reason to get cross ( a dog was in its lead space or a stranger reached out to stroke a dog that didn't want stroking), and then from that point on, the owner starts to change their behaviour thinking their dog is "vicious". 

But the change in owner behaviour (though understandable to us humans) often motivate and encourage the reactivity habit to continue. After this first ;incident; When an owner starts to recall their dog and leash it, starts to feel insecure, when they reel in the lead on sight of oncoming people or dogs, if they turn around and go the other way, when they start trying to distract or lure with food or toys, when they start to suddenly say the dogs name, or when they start to show worry or anxiety which transmits down then lead, all of these things, encourage the dog to react next time. 

The dog thinks "my owner is worried by this situation" or sometimes the dog thinks "She is saying my name she wants me to take action" or the dog thinks, "my owner needs my protection, she is pulling me in close" or the dog thinks, "every time I bark or lunge she gets out the sausage and the ball - she must WANT me to bark and lunge"... 

All of this can often be stopped very simply, very kindly and very quickly. Usually permanently and usually with only one training session of about an hour - including the history take. There are exceptions, to this rule of course, but in my experience about 80% of reactivity can be halted and new behaviours set in place within just a FEW MINUTES.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

Lexiedhb said:


> Just wanted to be clear, me "hugging" my dog has not "cured" him of his reactivity, it is still a management protocol, to avoid full melt down. I still have to do it with every single dog we see....... Unless a dog found the hugging bit really really unpleasant then I dont understand how it can change an ingrained behaviour in ten minutes if the dog is not shut down......


Well we tend to do our technique in clinic and we ensure the dog is non reactive to several dogs before it leaves. It works so well in clinic as we can control the stooge dogs behaviour. If the case dog realises that by NOT reacting to the stooge, the stooge does exactly the same as if it did react, then it realises that not reacting is the same as reacting, except that it doesn't have to lunge and bark and leap about. The main difference between reacting and non reacting though is that suddenly they find their OWNER is calm, smiling, peaceful and feeling like testing this out, rather than worrying and panicky about meeting other dogs.

I cant really comment on your technique or why it differs in its outcome, other than to say, every dog and owner is different and every result slightly different. As with all techniques. If you have a video of your technique or want to tell me more, then perhaps I can help you understand why the outcome is different. But whatever you decide, it seems like being able to stop the reactivity is far better than not being able to - for you and your dog!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Dog to dog/people reactivity is often quoted as based upon fear and or anxiety. I see more reactive cases than most and in my experience this simply is not true.... In most cases of reactivity that I see whether it be toward humans, dogs or both, it is merely a habit that has formed. Nothing more.


That's interesting...
If the dog is behaving out of habit and not some underlying emotion (fear, frustration), is that even reactivity? Or is it a learned behavior?
Learned behaviors that don't have an underlying emotional component are not the same thing as reactive behaviors that are manifestations of an emotion the dog is experiencing. At least, they aren't to me 

If you're dealing with a dog who's having an emotional response to a stimulus, addressing that emotion will go far in making that behavior associated with that emotion go away.

If you're dealing with a dog who has figured out a fun behavior chain of lunge and bark, return to mom, get a treat, then yeah, you just break the behavior chain. But that doesn't require any special heroics, you just tell the dog that's not the required behavior any more.

I think the bottom line is there is no one "right" way to deal with a dog who's "reactive". (Not to mention the term "reactive" isn't very clear anyway.)
There are many different ways to address reactivity and the more tools and techniques you have to pull from the more likely you are to find one that is effective with that individual dog.

@CaDeLac Denise are you familiar with Leslie McDevitt's "Control Unleashed" stuff?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> It is my belief that the use of food, praise, toys, turning away, creating distance or going in the opposite direction - actually perpetuates and encourages reactivity. Most dogs come to think of it as what the handler WANTS them to do.


I know many dogs that would blow that belief out of the water...mine included 
Proper DS/CC works very well when the handler does it consistently and effectively...the whole point of it is to make sure the dog does not react in order to achieve positive emotional and behavioral changes...

Why do you feel the need to imply other methods don't work? I am always wary of people that are cloak and dagger about their methods and then belittle others..
It doesn't take a 3000 word dissertation to briefly describe training methods after all, so still not sure why you can't be clear about what you actually do.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Why do you feel the need to imply other methods don't work? I am always wary of people that are cloak and dagger about their methods and then belittle others..
> It doesn't take a 3000 word dissertation to briefly describe training methods after all, so still not sure why you can't be clear about what you actually do.


*like*

I've been trying to figure out what that niggling feeling I'm getting is about this whole conversation 
Thanks for articulating it for me.

1) If you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it well enough yet. 
2) DS/CC is a valid method that works for many dogs. Yes, there are often issues with application and your APO does tend to get timing and application wrong enough that it just doesn't work, but that's a fault of application, not the method. 
3) There is more than one valid way to deal with reactivity. There are many, and depending on the dog, the owner, the owner's skills and probability of follow through, trainers can choose from a huge toolbox of techniques. Most are perfectly valid and effective.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing @CaDeLac Denise method(s). I'm not familiar enough to form an opinion one way or another. I'm actually only responding here because she specifically chose my posts to quote here. I was done with this thread a long time ago and only revisited it after getting tagged.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> I know many dogs that would blow that belief out of the water...mine included
> Proper DS/CC works very well when the handler does it consistently and effectively...the whole point of it is to make sure the dog does not react in order to achieve positive emotional and behavioral changes...
> 
> Why do you feel the need to imply other methods don't work? I am always wary of people that are cloak and dagger about their methods and then belittle others..
> It doesn't take a 3000 word dissertation to briefly describe training methods after all, so still not sure why you can't be clear about what you actually do.


At no stage have I ever implied other techniques don't work . Ds/CC is in common use in our behaviour clinics, for other problems, so I know how well it works. But not often used for reactivity. reactivity in my view is an issue which is way more simple to resolve and can be resolved in a few minutes quite often So that it immediately reduces the daily stress of a reactive dog trying to gain adequate exercise without encountering another dog.

Without fully understanding it, or seeing it, you have decided that my method is not of your choosing.

That is fine. I went into a shop to look for a new car the other day, they didn't have any I liked so I just walked out again. What I didn't do is stand there complaining that they hadn't got any cars that I liked. I just left. You can do the same if you wish. If you are suspicious of me and my technique then why not just leave the thread. There are others who have gone on to watch the videos and read the chapters of the book and help there dogs with it. And that's great.

There are others still, like you, who have no wish to and that's great too :--), Each to their own. I wont reply to your comments again. You have stated that you are 'suspicious' of me, and therefore my efforts will be wasted. I don't mind people being suspicious. I Don't mind if they think I'm a total ****. I still carry on the work and spread the word, and help other dogs. SImples


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

ouesi said:


> That's interesting...
> If the dog is behaving out of habit and not some underlying emotion (fear, frustration), is that even reactivity? Or is it a learned behavior?
> Learned behaviors that don't have an underlying emotional component are not the same thing as reactive behaviors that are manifestations of an emotion the dog is experiencing. At least, they aren't to me
> 
> ...


You have hit the nail on the head. In many different ways. Reactive is a word that has no clear definition across the board. Most people think of reactive as being I see a dog , I get loud and lungy, But in fact most dogs 'react' to other dogs on sight, even if it is just to say say, I'm moving out of your way as I don't want to talk', or 'Hi, I'm in a rush, looking for rabbits, cant stop' or 'Hi, I wanna play, do you?'.

And yes it is often just a matter of asking the dog to not behave a certain way and it will onceede to your request. Butt what happens is that most owners see their dog barking and leaping and lunging and they assume they are aggressive and they take the wrong action from that point on. Sometimes dogs which start out as reactive/friendly turn into frustrated/unfriendly reactive too. Its a fascinating subject. I love it.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

ouesi said:


> That's interesting...
> If the dog is behaving out of habit and not some underlying emotion (fear, frustration), is that even reactivity? Or is it a learned behavior?
> Learned behaviors that don't have an underlying emotional component are not the same thing as reactive behaviors that are manifestations of an emotion the dog is experiencing. At least, they aren't to me
> 
> @CaDeLac Denise are you familiar with Leslie McDevitt's "Control Unleashed" stuff?


You have to remember that as 'science has clearly defined' though that physical stance, is linked to emotional state. So when a dog starts out lungy and leapy, it may start friendly. With friendliness/happiness as its associated emotion. But when a dog is continually frustrated that frustration and the associated change of physical behaviour, changes the underlying emotional state. So the behaviour becomes an emotional minefield.

example. I got married last October and we are very happy. Unfortunately for me, a few months later his work took him away. Hundreds of miles away each week and I had to start driving down there each Friday through awful traffic. Everso excited to see him last week I set off as early as I could, full of excitement and looking forward to being back with him again. I got stuck in terrible traffic and had an aching back. By the time I arrived 7 hours later (4 hours later than expected, because of the trafiic) I was angry, too hot, grumpy, frustrated as hell and in pain. My first greeting to him was "I hate this damn journey, I cant do this anymore, Its killing me, leave me alone I want to lie down.".

Frustration when endured at length, changes the underlying emotional response. So frustrated greeters can become rather aggressive greeter's over time. Some don't. But some do.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm sorry but you have completely contradicted yourself..

In one breath you say that DS/CC only helps to perpetuate the reactivity..and then in the next you say that you didn't imply that DS/CC doesn't work!

If only you would be clear in what your method was, then maybe we could have a good discussion...but so far all I have is that you man handle (not your words, but my interpretation) a dog into a situation that they are not comfortable with - and that right there just doesn't sit right with me I am afraid!

I would love to learn a new all singing and dancing method, because I love to learn and having as many methods at my disposal as possible...because no dog responds the same to all methods. 
It's a shame you have to be so hush hush about it, as that just builds the suspicion


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ummm...and stating that my questioning your methods is alike to car shopping is just ridiculous.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Lexiedhb. It is my belief that the use of food, praise, toys, turning away, creating distance or going in the opposite direction - actually perpetuates and encourages reactivity. Most dogs come to think of it as what the handler WANTS them to do. I've written a Facebook status about it somewhere, ill try to find it and load it here. .


I have seen this first hand in Muttly. He sometimes will bark his head off, then turn around and come and sit by my side all quiet and smiley and ask for a treat! This was when I knew my timing of rewarding him for when he was quiet, was way off. He clearly thinks I am rewarding for reacting :Banghead

But something new happened last night.
I walked into our usual field and there were 3 dogs in like a triangle shape, we had to walk close past them to get out of the field. He went straight into 'wow there's dogs' :Woot mode, then froze to the spot, fixated on them. 
So I picked him up and carried him off, he was silent and calm. I put him down not too far away, but just at our exit, still in view of the dogs and he trotted along with me.



CaDeLac Denise said:


> You have to remember that as 'science has clearly defined' though that physical stance, is linked to emotional state. *So when a dog starts out lungy and leapy, it may start friendly*. *With friendliness/happiness as its associated emotion. But when a dog is continually frustrated that frustration and the associated change of physical behaviour, changes the underlying emotional state. So the behaviour becomes an emotional minefield. *
> 
> example. I got married last October and we are very happy. Unfortunately for me, a few months later his work took him away. Hundreds of miles away each week and I had to start driving down there each Friday through awful traffic. Everso excited to see him last week I set off as early as I could, full of excitement and looking forward to being back with him again. I got stuck in terrible traffic and had an aching back. By the time I arrived 7 hours later (4 hours later than expected, because of the trafiic) I was angry, too hot, grumpy, frustrated as hell and in pain. My first greeting to him was "I hate this damn journey, I cant do this anymore, Its killing me, leave me alone I want to lie down.".
> 
> *Frustration when endured at length, changes the underlying emotional response. So frustrated greeters can become rather aggressive greeter's over time. Some don't. But some do*.


This makes a lot of sense. Muttly is not an aggressive dog, I have always thought of him as an over-excited, frustrated greeter when it comes to other dogs. When he does get to meet dogs, he has to let out this (what sounds like) aggressive growl/bark type thing right in their faces. If the other dog doesn't respond the same, then they are best of friends! If it does, then it's time to go. Which is why he is still stuck on the lead when other dogs are around.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> You have to remember that as 'science has clearly defined' though that physical stance, is linked to emotional state. So when a dog starts out lungy and leapy, it may start friendly. With friendliness/happiness as its associated emotion. But when a dog is continually frustrated that frustration and the associated change of physical behaviour, changes the underlying emotional state. So the behaviour becomes an emotional minefield.
> 
> example. I got married last October and we are very happy. Unfortunately for me, a few months later his work took him away. Hundreds of miles away each week and I had to start driving down there each Friday through awful traffic. Everso excited to see him last week I set off as early as I could, full of excitement and looking forward to being back with him again. I got stuck in terrible traffic and had an aching back. By the time I arrived 7 hours later (4 hours later than expected, because of the trafiic) I was angry, too hot, grumpy, frustrated as hell and in pain. My first greeting to him was "I hate this damn journey, I cant do this anymore, Its killing me, leave me alone I want to lie down.".
> 
> Frustration when endured at length, changes the underlying emotional response. So frustrated greeters can become rather aggressive greeter's over time. Some don't. But some do.


Yes, I'm familiar with the complexities of emotional responses.

I'm still very curious if you've read or are familiar with any of the Control Unleashed stuff.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Ummm...and stating that my questioning your methods is alike to car shopping is just ridiculous.


In what way it is ridiculous?


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

Muttly said:


> I have seen this first hand in Muttly. He sometimes will bark his head off, then turn around and come and sit by my side all quiet and smiley and ask for a treat! This was when I knew my timing of rewarding him for when he was quiet, was way off. He clearly thinks I am rewarding for reacting :Banghead
> 
> But something new happened last night.
> I walked into our usual field and there were 3 dogs in like a triangle shape, we had to walk close past them to get out of the field. He went straight into 'wow there's dogs' :Woot mode, then froze to the spot, fixated on them.
> ...


It is often the case that when an owner interrupts the escalation of reaction, no matter HOW they interrupt it, it halts it and makes things get better in some way. Or at least stops them from getting worse. Taking NO action endorsed a behaviour Taking the wrong action makes it worse. Taking the right action improves it. That is what happens. Well done for following what you thought was right and finding out, it was!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Yes, I'm familiar with the complexities of emotional responses.
> 
> I'm still very curious if you've read or are familiar with any of the Control Unleashed stuff.


I did a while ago. Why are you curious as to whether I have read it?


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> I did a while ago. Why are you curious as to whether I have read it?


Because a lot of it deals with dogs distracted by their environment which is what you're talking about.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> In what way it is ridiculous?


For one, when you are buying a car the whole package is right in front of you...you know what you are buying into.
As you won't explain your method, I can only go on the small snippets of info.

Interesting how you didn't respond to my other post...Oh well, it's a shame you couldn't be more open about your methods but I'm done with this thread now.
Good luck with your book.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Because a lot of it deals with dogs distracted by their environment which is what you're talking about.


I don't understand that statement. I'm not talking about dogs that are distracted by their environment. I'm talking about how to resolve reactivity in dogs.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> I'm sorry but you have completely contradicted yourself..
> 
> In one breath you say that DS/CC only helps to perpetuate the reactivity..and then in the next you say that you didn't imply that DS/CC doesn't work!
> 
> ...


Hello again Stormy Thai. This thread is much the same as the one that you said you where done with, the one you where leaving. You made it quite clear on that other thread that you didn't like anything you heard in my writing. And there is nothing wrong with that! But, the question is, if you didn't like my writing about reactivity on the other thread about reactivity, then why come here, to this thread which I started about reactivity? You didn't like it there, its still the same technique here, so why visit this place?

If I went into a car sales room to buy a car and then didn't like the cars in there, Id leave. I wouldn't keep going back to the salesroom, an hour later, hoping they had changed their cars. Id go to another sales room that sold the type of cars I wanted to buy.

Why are you following me around the forum when you clearly dislike what I say, or disagree with my experience? You are free to leave this place which contents you disagree with. I wish you well with your dog.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

What other thread?

ETA: How am I following you around the forum? I have only spoken to you in this thread?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Hello again Stormy Thai. This thread is much the same as the one that you said you where done with, the one you where leaving. You made it quite clear on that other thread that you didn't like anything you heard in my writing. And there is nothing wrong with that! But, the question is, if you didn't like my writing about reactivity on the other thread about reactivity, then why come here, to this thread which I started about reactivity? You didn't like it there, its still the same technique here, so why visit this place?
> 
> If I went into a car sales room to buy a car and then didn't like the cars in there, Id leave. I wouldn't keep going back to the salesroom, an hour later, hoping they had changed their cars. Id go to another sales room that sold the type of cars I wanted to buy.
> 
> Why are you following me around the forum when you clearly dislike what I say, or disagree with my experience? You are free to leave this place which contents you disagree with. I wish you well with your dog.


I think you might have muddled up the threads and the posters. This thread was started by @BlackadderUK and has been running for 16 pages now which you joined at page 14. The other thread in Training and Behaviour was the one started by you and I can't see where @StormyThai has even contributed to that thread so how on earth do you make out she is following you are the forum


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> I don't understand that statement. I'm not talking about dogs that are distracted by their environment. I'm talking about how to resolve reactivity in dogs.


Surely reactivity IS a dog being distracted by/ reacting to their environment......... the environment just needs to contain another dog


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Sorry to harp on about this, but I have reread your post several times and each time a become more curious. I really like the idea of this palm touch you speak of, I can see how that can be a useful tool. Some of mine are trained to watch a specific knuckle joint. Fascinating process. Anyway, can I ask, with this technique you speak of ; The palm touch one. What does an owner do if they encounter a dog that upsets their reactive dog, and they offer the palm touch as an option, but the dog declines the offer. You say you want your dog to chose, what do you do if it is reacting and it choses NOT to palm touch. What happens then in the technique? I'm very interested in all techniques, but I cant see how your one works, in the event of the dog making the choice that you didn't want it to make? what do you do then? Thanks for the ideas anyway. Loving this thread and the people on it! Thanks everyone.


Not to speak for Ouesi, but thought I'd chuck my two pennies worth in here.
I quite often use the hand touch in a number of ways.

For instance, there is the sustained hand touch (primarily initially taught via freeshaping with a clicker) and also a shorter hand touch (one second touch to the hand) Both have a number of uses such as:

1) Husbandry type things at the vet. For instance, my dog on cue will sustain touching their nose to my hand for 40 seconds or however long, while the vet gives them a jab or takes some blood. If the dog stops the behaviour, that is his choice and is his way of communicating "hold on a minute lady, not sure about this. Give me a second". When he does that, we stop, pause for a minute and try again (usually with the vet altering their approach). I find this a really nice way to give my dog a choice in the way that he is handled at the vet, especially in circumstances that many dogs find rather stressful. It gives him choice in the process, a way of communicating and makes him a participant, rather than having stuff done to him. After sustaining the hand touch, he is rewarded both by myself and by the vet. This was a dog that once used to shake, flatten and completely shut down at the vets and now saunters in to inspect the toy aisle and have a sniff.
All this said, I have a vet who is completely on board with empowered husbandry stuff and knows how it works.

2) For getting dogs out of tight/surprise situations. Sustained hand touch and rapid reward schedule till you get through. Avoiding reactivity and gives them a choice to evade it.

However in my experience, for this to work, you have to have a dog that is not so entirely petrified that continuing past whatever it is and engaging with something else, i.e. you and offering a behaviour, i.e. the sustained hand touch, is possible.

3) For checking their level of arousal/their capacity to engage and offer behaviours.
Multiple examples:

1. I used to use this with my very driven dog in agility, who loved weaves soooooo much (my fault, we did tones of training solidly on it for a while hehe) that he used to charge at them without really thinking about what he was doing, sometimes missing his entry or knocking a pole on the jump prior.

Hand touch prior to sending him (when I was just working on entries in a short session), told me that he was in a state where he could still offer behaviours and allowed me to use the equipment/weaves as a secondary reinforcer.

2. Checking thresholds.

Another of my dogs, is fearful of other dogs having had a naff time in her previous home (munched by other dogs in household) and been attacked several times by dogs running out of properties or places where they shouldn't have been offlead.

Dog appears unexpectedly at a closer distance that I anticipated, I offer her a hand touch.
If she engages with it and responds to the cue, it tells me that she is OKish, so we can continue with DS and CC at that point or wander in an arc around them.

If she can't, it tells me that we are too close, so we can make a larger arc around them and allow her to choose avoidance. (Her choice of where she goes is limited after all when she is on a lead particularly)

For me, I guess the thing that all of these examples have in common, whilst the circumstances are quite different, is that the dog tells me, either with their compliance or non-compliance with the cue what state their are in. Choice and communication.

I've done a lot of work with this sort of stuff (cued behaviours to give choice) with my dog-fearful dog. She's at the point now, where she can ignore dogs that ignore her and allow me to deal with moderate, responsibly slower approaches from other dogs but still struggles with dogs that approach rapidly or stare her out (and those are the instances in which I give her distance before she gets to the point of desperately pulling away or a reaction). She has absolutely no interest in actively interacting with other dogs that she doesn't know.

Hypothetically I must say I would be hesitant to use what I understand to be the method you describe with a dog like her. By what I understand of the method, I mean, exposing the dog to another dog at the proximity that causes a reaction and waiting for them to make a choice or limiting their vision. Isn't that quite a stressful way to learn?
Speaking hypothetically, with a dog like mine, turning her to face me and blocking her vision, with the dog still behind her and at the same proximity would concern me rather, as she would still be highly distressed and I think this would make my particular dog feel very vulnerable. For one thing, she is partially sighted in one eye anyway and for another, when she has been attacked in the past it has always been with dogs running up behind her and grabbing her. I can imagine, in such a scenario, her just getting more and more stressed out. If I turned her in the opposite direction, in all likelihood she would lunge in that opposite direction to get away, which I guess in itself is a fair enough choice, but nothing about the behaviour would be calm. It would be sheer panic I'm afraid. If I didn't let her move away, she would eventually shut down completely, but what would she learn from that that was remotely positive or calming?

I must say, I can imagine your method works very well for frustrated greeters, i.e. for dogs who aren't actually highly fearful of other dogs, but rather, who actually want to interact but are frustrated by the constraints of a lead. However, without at this point knowing more about the specifics of it, it doesn't sound like something that would work well with dogs who have strong negative emotional responses to the presence of unknown dogs. However, that is only based on what I understand of the method based on what you posted, perhaps I have misunderstood parts? 

As I said, just my two pennies worth.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> It is often the case that when an owner interrupts the escalation of reaction, no matter HOW they interrupt it, it halts it and makes things get better in some way. Or at least stops them from getting worse. Taking NO action endorsed a behaviour Taking the wrong action makes it worse. Taking the right action improves it. That is what happens. Well done for following what you thought was right and finding out, it was!


I can relate to this.

The dog that attacked us the other week started 4+ years ago just being a boisterous, friendly dog running over and mugging my on leash, friendly dog.

Despite polite requests to not let it jump all over my dog, the owner did nothing so I used to avoid them as much as possible.

I would only pass them if it was on a lane and the dog was on leash. The boisterousness continued but escalated to lunging, barking and snarling. Now too, the dog would be attached to a buggy with a child in it.

On every occasion the owner would talk sweetly to the dog, such things as "oh, Fido, why are you being silly?" Whilst doing nothing to stop the behaviour.

In my mind, the owner spent 4+ years praising her dog for mugging my dog, and latterly for trying to see him off.

Culminating in the attack, when I found myself confronted by the dog appearing through a hedge with the (ineffective) owner too far away to intervene - and the dog took the opportunity to finally see my dog off once and for all.

Now, after Police intervention, the dog will have to be leashed and muzzled. A shame when some relevant training could have nipped the problem in the bud years ago and saved my dog and me from the trauma.

The owner effectively trained the dog to have the way it did IMO


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2016)

lemmsy said:


> Not to speak for Ouesi, but thought I'd chuck my two pennies worth in here.
> I quite often use the hand touch in a number of ways.
> 
> For instance, there is the sustained hand touch (primarily initially taught via freeshaping with a clicker) and also a shorter hand touch (one second touch to the hand) Both have a number of uses such as:
> ...


HI Lemmsy and thank you for your detailed, informed and polite reply. It sounds like you have done great work with your dog . IF you technique works then it works. no need to follow anyone else's. approach if yours is working.

I find it fascinating that people keep telling me how my technique works though . AS I have stated many times, the PURPOSE of this technique is to REPLACE strong negative emotional responses that is what it actually does! You might not be able to imagine it to do that, but I've been using it about once a week or so for the last 40 years, on reactive dogs of all types and of those that are suitable (non redirectors, the right size etc.) then 80% are improved to usually 100% improvement. It works brilliantly with fearful dogs, but in my experience most reactive dogs are not fearful anyway. Yes the videos shown are friendly over excited dogs. But most are highly aroused and NOT friendly.

Again I thank you for the polite nature of your message and I wish you all the very best for continuous improvements with your own dog. D

But as you have found what you are looking for in your own approaches then that's great. Well done!


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> I can relate to this.
> 
> The dog that attacked us the other week started 4+ years ago just being a boisterous, friendly dog running over and mugging my on leash, friendly dog.
> 
> ...


Lurcherlad yes you are right. It does sound like the owner kept rewarding the dog for doing the wrong thing. Sadly, its a very common thing. There is so much emphasis these days on using praise and reward that people often train IN, and reinforce, the very behaviour that they do not want. In most cases the way people try to stop reativity is the exact same way that one teaches reactivity when one wants a dog to react . And its not just there in reactivity either, its there in lots of bad behaviour.

Very often, in my work with behaviour rehabs, I have to ask "Have you actually told her not to do it?" I usually get a vague look on their faces and eventually they concede that "no, I haven't actually told her not to do it...." And when we do tell them not to do it, somehow, then hey presto quite often, they stop doing it. Its all about timing. Praise and rewards are FINE after a behaviour has ceased altogether and the underlying emotional state has been altered. But if its used to soon it trains in that behaviour. Its simply a question of timing. And until people understand timing, it can be confusing.

You are correct also in that the longer you leave a behaviour to fester, the more likely it is to worsen/increase and often the harder it is to fix.

People these days are so reluctant to just interrupt bad behaviour and get the dog to understand its NOT wanted, that they let it grow into a huge problem. I've written about one such case in my book. A dog that kept getting into fights for humping other dogs.

Its fascinating the way that the dog owning population has changed in its approach to problems since I first started out. In some ways it has changed for the better but it has certainly seen a dramatic rise in bad , dangerous and even illegal behaviour.

Thank you for your polite and sensible reply and great observations on your part. 1


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Barney let me down at the beach on Wednesday, off the lead he behaves perfectly walking so close behind me that I have to be careful not to knock him in the face as I walk. He was walking nicely, ignoring dogs as he always does off lead, then all of a sudden goes bonkers running inbetween families on the beach and does a wee against a sandcastle!


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2016)

Vanessa131 said:


> Barney let me down at the beach on Wednesday, off the lead he behaves perfectly walking so close behind me that I have to be careful not to knock him in the face as I walk. He was walking nicely, ignoring dogs as he always does off lead, then all of a sudden goes bonkers running inbetween families on the beach and does a wee against a sandcastle!


Uh oh. Did a big rumpus ensue? Oen of my dogs years ago when I lived on a narrow boat, ran down the towpath, onto someone boat an stole their roast chicken ;-). Dogs will be dogs I guess.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Uh oh. Did a big rumpus ensue? Oen of my dogs years ago when I lived on a narrow boat, ran down the towpath, onto someone boat an stole their roast chicken ;-). Dogs will be dogs I guess.


I grabbed him, shoved the lead on and made eye contact with no one, how very British!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Well, they are dogs not robots! 

Nobody usually bemoans a genuine "blip" but if you have a dog with a known issue or you encourage it to join someone's picnic, don't be surprised it it's not welcomed with open arms!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

:WideyedThis is a rather enduring thread.

However, in simple answer to the initial enquiry; it's because they're ignorant.

And they remain ignorant because the more conscientious dog owner is continually having to make allowances for their negligent ways which, ultimately, prevents the ignorant from learning anything new.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2016)

lemmsy said:


> Not to speak for Ouesi, but thought I'd chuck my two pennies worth in here.
> I quite often use the hand touch in a number of ways.
> 
> For instance, there is the sustained hand touch (primarily initially taught via freeshaping with a clicker) and also a shorter hand touch (one second touch to the hand) Both have a number of uses such as:
> ...


Yup, excellent examples and yes, the hand touch is applicable in so many different ways  Great post.



CaDeLac Denise said:


> Very often, in my work with behaviour rehabs, I have to ask "Have you actually told her not to do it?" I usually get a vague look on their faces and eventually they concede that "no, I haven't actually told her not to do it...." And when we do tell them not to do it, somehow, then hey presto quite often, they stop doing it. Its all about timing. Praise and rewards are FINE after a behaviour has ceased altogether and the underlying emotional state has been altered. But if its used to soon it trains in that behaviour. Its simply a question of timing. And until people understand timing, it can be confusing.
> 
> You are correct also in that the longer you leave a behaviour to fester, the more likely it is to worsen/increase and often the harder it is to fix.
> 
> People these days are so reluctant to just interrupt bad behaviour and get the dog to understand its NOT wanted, that they let it grow into a huge problem. I've written about one such case in my book. A dog that kept getting into fights for humping other dogs.


Right, this is exactly what I was talking about earlier in this thread, "reactivity" that's a learned behavior. The dog has simply never been told *not* to behave that way. The dog has not had the criteria for what to do in the presence of another dog clarified clearly enough. So you're dealing with no so much "reactivity" but simply re-teaching a learned behavior. 


ouesi said:


> If the dog is behaving out of habit and not some underlying emotion (fear, frustration), is that even reactivity? Or is it a learned behavior?
> Learned behaviors that don't have an underlying emotional component are not the same thing as reactive behaviors that are manifestations of an emotion the dog is experiencing. At least, they aren't to me





ouesi said:


> If you have a dog who doesn't have a strong negative CER to other dogs, who's just lunging on leash because they have been inadvertently taught to do so with poor handling (unintentional operant conditioning), then yeah, you simply apply some combination of your four quadrants of learning theory and re-train a more appropriate behavior around other dogs. That's probably going to include some form of punishment (my preference would be negative punishment) where it is clear to the dog that the lunging is not the behavior that's going to pay, and an alternate behavior will - with the alternate behavior being heavily rewarded. So sure, do your R+/P- and reframe that picture for the dog. For most dogs with decent handling this is a super fast process. Lunge, nope, pay attention to me, good. Rinse and repeat. Done in no time.


This type of behavior - whatever you want to call it. Is not difficult to un-do. It doesn't take any special heroics, just simple learning theory, punish what you don't want, reward what you do.

As I read though this thread and the other one, I think of the dogs I know who suffer with serious emotional based reactivity, who's owners are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing, who are seeing small but real progress, and I feel some of the conversation has been rather unfair to these owner and their dogs.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> As I read though this thread and the other one, I think of the dogs I know who suffer with serious emotional based reactivity, who's owners are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing, who are seeing small but real progress, and I feel some of the conversation has been rather unfair to these owner and their dogs.


I agree. Feels like there's very much a "come on people, it's really not hard" sort of thing going on in some ways.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> I agree. Feels like there's very much a "come on people, it's really not hard" sort of thing going on in some ways.


Really? Well in that case I will definitely abandon the thread and go back to wherst I came from! . Fare well Sarah. Dx


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2016)

I'd just like to say a big thank you to those of you have written to me on facebook and by email, following the discussions on this and the other thread.  Its great to hear that I have been able to help in some way. For those who have requested that the information be emailed to you, then I've sent them out now, so please let me know if you have not received the chapter and appendix relating to the turn and face technique. If you need any help the let me know and please do let us know how you get on ;-). 

The book is released on Tuesday 29th August and will be signed and despatched to those that have used our website pre order facility. There will be a new facebook group 'dog reactivity - support and help - turn and face', which includes all the video footage of the technique that you have enquired about. At the moment there is only the preview chapters on the group 'A Dog Behaviourist's Diary', which is open to all. 

Again I thank you for you interest and your kind words . I'm sorry so many of you, felt unable to comment on the thread but I agree with you DD, that it is a rather unfriendly place! This is my last post in this thread. I hope you enjoy the book. get your tissues at the ready for the story of Rosie


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> I'd just like to say a big thank you to those of you have written to me on facebook and by email, following the discussions on this and the other thread.  Its great to hear that I have been able to help in some way. For those who have requested that the information be emailed to you, then I've sent them out now, so please let me know if you have not received the chapter and appendix relating to the turn and face technique. If you need any help the let me know and please do let us know how you get on ;-).
> 
> The book is released on Tuesday 29th August and will be signed and despatched to those that have used our website pre order facility. There will be a new facebook group 'dog reactivity - support and help - turn and face', which includes all the video footage of the technique that you have enquired about. At the moment there is only the preview chapters on the group 'A Dog Behaviourist's Diary', which is open to all.
> 
> Again I thank you for you interest and your kind words . I'm sorry so many of you, felt unable to comment on the thread but I agree with you DD, that it is a rather unfriendly place! This is my last post in this thread. I hope you enjoy the book. get your tissues at the ready for the story of Rosie


Sorry you find this an unfriendly place  I don't know you nor your technique and as very little information has been provided about it I haven't felt the need to get involved in discussing it. It does feel like a bit of a clique or a club that only a select few have been privy to, probably not intentional but that is how I felt so I didn't participate further other than to pick you up on this comment which you made on Page 16 - my reply to you is in bold. Your comment to @StormyThai was far from friendly and even though you must now realise you had the wrong person I note you haven't apologised to her. Why is that?

"Hello again Stormy Thai. This thread is much the same as the one that you said you where done with, the one you where leaving. You made it quite clear on that other thread that you didn't like anything you heard in my writing. And there is nothing wrong with that! But, the question is, if you didn't like my writing about reactivity on the other thread about reactivity, then why come here, to this thread which I started about reactivity? You didn't like it there, its still the same technique here, so why visit this place?

If I went into a car sales room to buy a car and then didn't like the cars in there, Id leave. I wouldn't keep going back to the salesroom, an hour later, hoping they had changed their cars. Id go to another sales room that sold the type of cars I wanted to buy.

Why are you following me around the forum when you clearly dislike what I say, or disagree with my experience? You are free to leave this place which contents you disagree with. I wish you well with your dog."

*I think you might have muddled up the threads and the posters. This thread was started by @BlackadderUK and has been running for 16 pages now which you joined at page 14. The other thread in Training and Behaviour was the one started by you and I can't see where @StormyThai has even contributed to that thread so how on earth do you make out she is following you around the forum*


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> Really? Well in that case I will definitely abandon the thread and go back to wherst I came from! . Fare well Sarah. Dx


Yeah, it has come across that way at times unfortunately. Which isn't like you from what I know of you from elsewhere.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> Yeah, it has come across that way at times unfortunately. Which isn't like you from what I know of you from elsewhere.


Sarah is it you that just posted on my facebook page? Asking about the DVD. I cant remember you r surname?


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> I agree. Feels like there's very much a "come on people, it's really not hard" sort of thing going on in some ways.


To be fair, I think there are indeed instances where it really is not that hard to undo, and I and others have already addressed.

However, I also think "reactivity" (geez, the more I use that word, the more I dislike it!) is a much more involved and complex issue than seems to be implied here.

I have a friend, first time dog owner, but went in to dog ownership gung-ho. Has taken multiple classes, competes in obedience and nosework, has done remarkably well with her little dog they found as a puppy on the side of the road.

Her dog is "reactive" in that he will lunge, bark, and do all sorts of displays to any dog who gets too close. 
What he is actually doing is resource guarding her. I can hold him at a busy dog show and he does not one of his reactive behaviors with me, and is perfectly happy to ignore other dogs. 
Understandably it's pretty upsetting for her to realize that she is in part the cause of her dog's behavior, not in an accusatory way, but in a literal sense, she is the catalyst - she is the resource he guards.

It would be incredibly unfair (and unhelpful) to chastise an owner like this, for not having taught her dog not to lunge.
Likewise, it would be utterly unhelpful to punish this dog for lunging, as it is classic RG and not something that is going to be ameliorated by telling the dog "hey don't lunge".

As it is, this dog has vastly improved with effective RG protocols. But it takes time and consistency and is not a quick fix (RG can be a quick fix in many cases, in this one where I suspect there is a strong genetic component, I don't think it will ever be 100% gone.)

Then there are dogs like my Breez who went through a phase as a youngster where she thought it was the height of entertainment to hurl herself at anything and everything, even better if it caused the animal to react, ideally run so she could chase it. Yeah, no. I told her in no uncertain terms that behavior was not going to happen and she needed to grow some neurons and get her head screwed back on or she gets put back in the car, taken out of the area, fun and opportunities for reinforcement go away. She figured it out fairly quickly (she did have to grow some brain cells and impulse control along the way, but it was not a long, involved process in the training department).

Those are just two examples of how different 'reactivity' can be. There are all sorts of scenarios, different dogs, different dog/owner combinations, different personalities, that mean "reactivity" can have innumerable causes and will need to be addressed entirely differently depending on that individual situation.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> HI Lemmsy and thank you for your detailed, informed and polite reply. It sounds like you have done great work with your dog . IF you technique works then it works. no need to follow anyone else's. approach if yours is working.
> 
> I find it fascinating that people keep telling me how my technique works though . AS I have stated many times, the PURPOSE of this technique is to REPLACE strong negative emotional responses that is what it actually does! You might not be able to imagine it to do that, but I've been using it about once a week or so for the last 40 years, on reactive dogs of all types and of those that are suitable (non redirectors, the right size etc.) then 80% are improved to usually 100% improvement. It works brilliantly with fearful dogs, but in my experience most reactive dogs are not fearful anyway. Yes the videos shown are friendly over excited dogs. But most are highly aroused and NOT friendly.
> 
> ...


Not a problem. Thank you in turn for your reply.

Just want to clarify that I wasn't intending to try and tell you how your technique works, if anything I was looking for clarification on the specifics of it and how it does work and how you use it.
For me as an individual when choosing an approach to training, it is important for me that I understand a technique and how (the how and why is so crucial) it works so that I can ensure that on the wider picture that it is right for the dog.
At the present I'm not 100% sure on the specifics of what you do with the dogs and how this changes their emotional response, in the case of fearful dogs particularly, as you mentioned that it does.

I understand that you are at this point spreading the word about the technique and book rather than actively seeking out discussion of the method itself. However curious, behaviour nerd minds like my own, always like to understand what they are reading about and it's potential, hence me seeking out clarification. 

I suppose my main questions are as follows:

1.
I can see how the technique would work well with many frustrated greeters.
The only thing I wonder about in that sort of circumstance is how you would approach using the technique with a dog who is touch/body sensitive. I would be concerned of the grab or hug, as I think you called it, perhaps startling a dog who is merely overaroused by the presence of the dog, but as it happens a bit sensitive to sudden touch or hands raised over their head. I would want to be incredibly careful about, without meaning to, using the 'hug' thing as something punishing, which it occurs to me could be something that comes to be associated with the presence of the other dog, if the technique required multiple repetitions (adding perhaps an element of anxiety where there was previously merely frustration).
*But I guess that is why you assess or get a feel for the dog (likes/dislikes, worries and so on) before the session right?
What are your views on this kind of situation? *Not a trick question (I'm not about that- merely interested)

2.
*Regarding your comment about about your technique replacing the emotional response of dogs who react because they are fearful. How does this work?*

I'm quite familiar with working with emotional responses, both positive and negative with my own dogs (some of them accidental 'project' dogs, who have required some work on specific worries they have had).

In my experience, dogs who are reactive because of fear-related negative ERs, have developed this negative ER either following a period of unpleasant experiences or one experience that was so unpleasant that was significant to produce the ER. These kind of circumstances are often coupled with daily, unrelated external (daily) stressors that contribute (chemically and behaviourally) to the production of the negative ER, whether over time or otherwise.
Thus, because stress and overall stress reduction (and the use of activities that produce positive ERs in other contexts) is so crucial to the efficacy of B-mod programmes for these kinds of dogs (building up their emotional bank balance and building resilience if you will), *how do you approach using the technique so that does not produce stress which thus links into and essentially produces behaviours and physiological chains that are if you like a symptom of this*?

*Inevitably, prompting a reaction in order to interrupt it will cause some stress, so how does the technique counteract this and produce that positive ER?*

My feeling is that because the series of events and circumstances that lead to a negative ER are significant enough for the dog to then assess that situation or stimulus as a threat to them and incredibly scary, in order to change it, there needs to be an experience that in laymen's terms, essentially provides significant proof to the contrary. How does the technique do this?

I suppose it comes down to the whole question of operant vs classical conditioning, which are so often mistaken for each other when it comes to working with dogs that are reactive due to fear in my experience. I've actually written about this issue in an article published by magazine in the US. It is complicated so I won't rabbit on about it now but @ouesi, IMO summarised the point rather beautifully when she said that " all operant conditioning has an element of classical conditioning, but not the other way around". That is why classical conditioning (via counter conditioning) is effective with dogs that are reactive due to fear, whereas eposing the dog to the stimulus at the point of a reaction and then cueing an alternative behaviour might well get you compliance with the cue if the dog can still eat or is motivated by a reinforcer, but it may not change the ER if the dog does not feel safe.

Safety and creating that feeling of safety is so important when working with such dogs.
I guess that is my fundamental question really here (sorry that I have rambled on). *How does the technique work in terms of counter conditioning and safety so that a fearful dog is at the point where they are actually capable of learning that the thing isn't scary any more and is actually ok?* 
*And how does it show them or teach them that it is ok?* (I deliberately didn't use the word train there, because I want to avoid the operant conditioning issue- as we know you can ask for an operant behaviour, you may get compliance but the dog will still be petrified).

Relinking Suzanne's video here because I think it is worth a watch for anyone:





So those are my questions. I just want to say again, I'm not criticizing your method. My questions are my geeky curiosity- seeking to find out more about how you have used this.

Thanks


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

ouesi said:


> However, I also think "reactivity" (geez, the more I use that word, the more I dislike it!) is a much more involved and complex issue than seems to be implied here.


Right! With you there @ouesi. The more I use the term, the more I get annoyed with myself. I mean if dogs didn't react (lets say engage or interact maybe) in some way, shape or form to stimuli in their environment, they'd be dead surely?!

It's a bit of a misleading term to say the least.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2016)

lemmsy said:


> Not a problem. Thank you in turn for your reply.
> 
> Just want to clarify that I wasn't intending to try and tell you how your technique works, if anything I was looking for clarification on the specifics of it and how it does work and how you use it.
> For me as an individual when choosing an approach to training, it is important for me that I understand a technique and how (the how and why is so crucial) it works so that I can ensure that on the wider picture that it is right for the dog.
> ...


Hello again Lemmsy and thank you for your polite enquiry. I am no longer taking part in this or any reactivity thread. If you wish to ask me a question then please contact me via email at [email protected] or via facebook Denise cadelac McLeod. It is impossible for me to deliver information in a way that is acceptable to a forum format, it seems, And I am tired of the fact that I answer questions and people say I haven't. I have already answered many of the questions but I suspect that people are no longer reading the answers, they just want me gone. So I have obliged . But I will try where possible to answer questions, though I am off out now back in a few hours. Thank you again for the polite enquiry.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> I suspect that people are no longer reading the answers


Oh the irony!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I've just reread most of the posts in this thread and I kind of feel that this needs saying:

Just a shout out really to anyone who does have a dog or is working with one who is "reactive" (let's say produces unwanted behaviour- not a massive fan of the term reactive but it's what we've got) due to fear. 
It's a darned tricky issue to be dealing with and can at times be quite upsetting. In my experience, you totally can have success with desensitisation and counterconditioning but it can be a long process. Ultimately IME crucial to it's success is the issue of safety. If the dog feels safe, they can learn that it isn't necessarily something to be petrified of.

That said, I want to add, that again, IME, there are some dogs that cannot be fully "fixed" and that's ok!

You might get them to the point where they make significant improvement, but they are still concerned by the stimulus in certain contexts. The practicalities and feasibility of organising setups for the particular issue that would allow for success, may prevent you from working further on that context and that's fine. 
Getting the dog to the point where they can enjoy their daily life, have lots of positive experiences to keep them happy in the general sense and using management to get them through contexts that they still find tricky (as well as limiting whenever possible their expose to them in the first place), is in my view, doing right by your dog.

Just some words of reassurance, based on my view of it (as someone who has worked with a few definite fear cases).

All the best people


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2016)

lemmsy said:


> For me as an individual when choosing an approach to training, it is important for me that I understand a technique and how (the how and why is so crucial) it works so that I can ensure that on the wider picture that it is right for the dog.


Absolutely!!
In the two examples I gave, my young dog being an idiot, and my friend's dog resource guarding. The behavior looks exactly the same. Dog lunges to the end of the leash and vocalizes.

However what the dog is experiencing emotionally and physiologically when they do that behavior could not be more different. One is having a grand old time creating entertainment for herself, the other is anxious and worried about losing a precious resource.

Thus the way you approach the behavior change for each dog is going to have to differ too.

For the record, I don't think any of us can say definitively what our dogs are thinking or feeling, but we can sure make some decent educated guesses based on experience and - relevant to this discussion - how the dog responds to the behavior modification.


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## JonDavTia (Feb 9, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> You just reminded me of something I was going to post yesterday. I was walking down the road (without the dogs) and two ladies were chatting, with a Yorkie at their feet. The Yorkie completely ignored me, but then took exception to the lady who was walking behind me. I heard mad barking and snapping and turned round to see the two ladies laughing and saying what a silly boy he was. I really wanted to march up and tell them that, actually, it's way beyond "silly boy" and because they have let him behave in this manner, he is actually vicious. It's only because of his size that he gets away with it.


This is where the problem lies IMO.......if that yorkie had been a large breed dog there would have been hell on, but because they are small, they seem to think it's OK and it isn't.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Vanessa131 said:


> Barney let me down at the beach on Wednesday, off the lead he behaves perfectly walking so close behind me that I have to be careful not to knock him in the face as I walk. He was walking nicely, ignoring dogs as he always does off lead, then all of a sudden goes bonkers running inbetween families on the beach and does a wee against a sandcastle!


Yours and mine both. Cash decided to run up to a dog on the beach the other day that had just walked on!  He didn't recall immediately, but when he did I managed to regain some credit as he stayed in a perfect sit/down stay when asked.
They all have their moments no matter the level of training.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> To be fair, I think there are indeed instances where it really is not that hard to undo, and I and others have already addressed.
> 
> However, I also think "reactivity" (geez, the more I use that word, the more I dislike it!) is a much more involved and complex issue than seems to be implied here..


Oh definitely! Spens "reactivity" wasn't all that difficult to undo although it certainly wasn't an instant fix. I just know how soul destroying it is to have spent years working on a problem only for someone to come along and say it's easily fixed.

And I'm not a fan of the term reactivity either.


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## LotsaDots (Apr 15, 2016)

A year ago I would have agreed with those who said its the owners ignorance and they should train their dog. I had a an easy going JRT X who would rather be by my side than go play with another dog and never barked or lunged even as a puppy. After we tragically lost him we got Dottie, similar breed same age did all the same things with training and socialising yet at 7 months she is completely unpredictable and a bit of a nightmare when it comes to other dogs. She isn't aggressive but will gob off and generally be a nuisance with some dogs, she doesn't read signals very well even though she spends a lot of time with my mums 7 dogs and frequently gets told off by them! 
I am of course working on her trying to keep her focused on me but she isn't really interested in food and toys will work sporadically I know it's down to me to work on her but if people saw us a lot would think she's just a badly trained dog or I just don't care. I've had so many stop and try and give me advice which is the good side and I've had many tell me she needs putting in her place as well as being tutted at, often by people with a nice quiet well behaved dog. I'm sure without training Stan would have been a much quieter more naturally obedient dog than Dottie it's just the way they are wired sometimes. I'm definitely a lot more understanding now when I come across someone struggling it's easy to judge but we don't always know the full story and a kind word goes a long way. I've been reduced to tears of frustration by my dogs behaviour and I'm probably not the only one.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Have to say, like many of you I agree that the idea this is a quick and easy fix across the board is upsetting and unfair to anyone who has spent months doing everything they can to deal with it. Nice way to make people feel like they have failed their dogs


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Colette said:


> Have to say, like many of you I agree that the idea this is a quick and easy fix across the board is upsetting and unfair to anyone who has spent months doing everything they can to deal with it. Nice way to make people feel like they have failed their dogs


I really don't think it was meant that way.

I had spent 6/7 years working on Polos reactivity. We had made progress. When he hit adolescence and the behaviour started, it escalated to the point a dog on the opposite side of a 5 acre field was enough to make Polo tense. At the point he could ascertain if that dog was getting closer he was up on his back legs and if close enough to see that the dog had made eye contact he was lunging, baring his teeth and barking hysterically. Although he only weighed 22kgs he used every ounce of that weight to back up and throw himself at the end of the lead in attempt to yank the lead out of my hand. When that didn't work, he would dive behind or through my legs in a attempt to trip me up so he could get free.

Using the generally accepted desensitisation and counter conditioning we got to a point where we could be around dogs by using about turns, heel work and hand touches and a number of other techniques to avoid a reaction. He would be okay following a dog from a short distance behind. So this was a massive improvement on a dog that had NO threshold to stay under!

In some ways I wish I'd known about the techniques Denise uses years before as it could have saved a lot of tears of frustration, stress etc but I don't really regret the years of training and work that I put into trying to resolve it as I have learnt so much, things that have helped with Polo and other dogs in certain situations.

I always say everything is easy when you know the answer. It's finding the answer that isn't easy.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2016)

Poundingpaws said:


> I really don't think it was meant that way.
> 
> I always say everything is easy when you know the answer. It's finding the answer that isn't easy.


NO it certainly wasn't meant that way! My replies where meant to inspire others to seek out different ways. To let them know that they where there. My intention was to help people, like you, who have been trying for ages to solve their own personal reactivity struggle. But as is the way of forums, what happened was something completely different. It seems my very presence stirred up animosity and unfriendliness. But no it wasn't meant that way. My whole life is dedicated to helping dogs find peace in their life and helping people find peace with their dogs. But it seems it isn't possible by way of a forum!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

lemmsy said:


> Not to speak for Ouesi, but thought I'd chuck my two pennies worth in here.
> I quite often use the hand touch in a number of ways.
> 
> For instance, there is the sustained hand touch (primarily initially taught via freeshaping with a clicker) and also a shorter hand touch (one second touch to the hand) Both have a number of uses such as:
> ...


Fascinating Lemmsy. I would love to try this with Muttly. But maybe out of my depth, can you point me anywhere to read more about this please?


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

lemmsy said:


> I've just reread most of the posts in this thread and I kind of feel that this needs saying:
> 
> Just a shout out really to anyone who does have a dog or is working with one who is "reactive" (let's say produces unwanted behaviour- not a massive fan of the term reactive but it's what we've got) due to fear.
> It's a darned tricky issue to be dealing with and can at times be quite upsetting. In my experience, you totally can have success with desensitisation and counterconditioning but it can be a long process. Ultimately IME crucial to it's success is the issue of safety. If the dog feels safe, they can learn that it isn't necessarily something to be petrified of.
> ...


Just want to say a big thank you. I know it's silly, but following this thread has, at times, made me feel like the general consensus is that my dog doesn't have a problem that can't be easily fixed...I'm just not doing right by my dog. Which I know isn't true. And I know it's not what has been said, but I can be a bit sensitive about Fidget!



Colette said:


> Have to say, like many of you I agree that the idea this is a quick and easy fix across the board is upsetting and unfair to anyone who has spent months doing everything they can to deal with it. Nice way to make people feel like they have failed their dogs


Snap! That's why I had to reply a couple of times. I didn't want others to find this and feel like they've been doing it all wrong, and if they'd just found this magic technique it'd all go away.
I still disagree that reactivity is rarely fear based. I find that almost insulting to those of us, and I'm sure there are a good number of us, that DO have fear reactive dogs.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2016)

Hello everybody. My book is now released and is due for shipment tomorrow. All those that have ordered via the CaDeLac website - your books will e signed and despatched via first class post tomorrow (Wednesday 31st August). The Ebook should go out tonight or tomorrow. I'd like to thank all of those that have messaged me such kind, supportive messages and thank you also for your orders! I hope you enjoy the book as much as I enjoyed writing it! And I really hope it helps you with your reactive dogs too! Best Regards, Denise (A Dog Behaviourist's Diary).


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2016)

People here where asking about further information on the technique I have developed which halts reactivity quickly and kindly . Following the release of my book which gives more details on the technique I have written this new article which explains more of the 'why does it work, and how does it work' aspects of the technique.

*Resolving fear and reactivity, quickly and kindly. *

*The technique Turn and Face. What is it? Why and How does it work? *

Turn and Face is the technique I use to help most of the dog to dog and dog to people reactivity cases I see in my behaviour clinics and class situations. I also use it often to help any anxiety driven behaviours, fear of things, terror, frustration and over excitement.

Since the release of my recent book 'A Dog Behaviourist's Diary', I have been asked by many people to explain WHY and HOW it works.

So here is my answer. Turn and Face - What is it? How does it work?

Turn and Face is a technique I discovered, by accident, as a 10 year old child when I was walking a friend's dog and encountered a flock of sheep coming towards us on a narrow country lane. The dog, Ben, went mental, leaping and lunging and barking his head off. The sheep would not pass us until I had quietened him and calmed him.

Using techniques I had used when handling injured wild animals, or farm animals, I managed by accident to quieten him and still him. It took just a few seconds. I was amazed! Ben was completely still and calm again. Ben went on to generalise that being calm and still around sheep was rewarding and more pleasant for him, than leaping about, stressing himself out, raising his heart rate and blood pressure and hurting himself and his handler. In future encounters with sheep he had generalised the calmness and instead he would bring himself closer to me, and snuggle into me, asking for affection as he simply watched the sheep do whatever they where doing.

Since that day I have used the technique very successfully on hundreds of cases of on lead reactivity in dogs and in many cases have eliminated reactivity completely. It is not suitable for ALL dogs and doesn't work with ALL cases. But I estimate that of the dogs I see it is appropriate for 80%. Of that 80% around 80% go on to achieve 100% or near 100% reduction in reactivity to dogs and people. Whilst retaining the right and the ability to react WHEN NECESSARY (in the case of being attacked, or in the case of a dog running into its lead space).

What is it?

The technique involves holding the dog's collar in a specific way, and drawing the dog forward into the handlers body, and away from the threat or stimulus (where there is a threat, it can also be used when a dog is fearful of an unknown thing). The dogs head is placed against the handler's stomach, groin, thighs, calves or ankles, depending on the dog's height, thereby reducing the power and motivation of the visual stimulus (in the case of reactivity to a 'thing'). The dog can no longer see and hence ceases reaction to the stimulus (dog, person, etc.).

The dog is held in position until the first signs of relaxation appear, (usually a few seconds) where upon, the dog is released, but the lead is still held. Usually the dog will immediately recommence reactivity. The technique is immediately re applied. The process is repeated until a complete cessation of reactivity is seen. This usually takes anything from between 2 and 15 repetitions (absolute worst case I have encountered was 15 repetitions).

After application it is common for the dog to appear, relaxed, happy, friendly, calmer, looser in its movement, stiffness and tension leave the body. The eyes will soften and the tail usually changes position and normalises to its relaxed state. The dog will most usually completely disengage from the stimulus (dog or person) and re-engage with either the handler or the environment. Often shaking off, sighing, sniffing and wandering off. On occasion, the dog will sometimes initiate friendly or play signals to the stimulus. This is lovely to see when an apparently wild and aggressive dog, decides that actually, "why don't we just play instead".

Over a period of 3 or more exposures to a repeat of the offending stimulus the dog often generalises to all similar stimulus and ceases reactivity altogether. Often forever. Occasionally it may be required to re-introduce the technique, in the future in particularly stressful future encounters, but when this is done, calmness usually descends within 3 or so applications.

But HOW does it work?

Of course I am not a dog, much less a reactive dog, so I can never know for sure, but through 40 years of observation and research, I will summarise as follows.

For every dog I believe that a different set of aspects are applicable. Some are responding to some aspects of the technique, others to other aspects. But all of the below apply to some degree in most dogs.

*1) *The most important aspect of this technique is that the owner or handler can do it themselves. In real life. In real time. *Once they fully understand and have practised the technique. *

2) Turning the dog away from the stimulus so that it can no longer see it, so that it's main sensory input is the smell, feel, touch, and sound of the handler, not the stimulus. This gives the dogs brain and body time and space to reconnect with a different set of internal feelings and chemical changes. Reducing flight or fight instincts and associated chemical changes and replacing them with more relaxing and calming internal chemical responses - see PARTIAL Sensory deprivation referenced below. This allows the dog to focus inward rather than responding to the stimulus of the 'threat'. It is likened in some references, to inducing a meditational state.

3) The TOUCH of the handler can initiate two things. It either acts as a pre-conditioned response i.e. the dog is USED to feeling calm when handled (this does not apply if the dog is not used to, and happy with, being handed).

4) Or it provides the beneficial effects of deep touch which are again, referenced below. It is scientifically proven that touch increases oxytocin levels which in turn reduce stress and anxiety. In humans, hugs from close friends or family can instantly helps us feel more calm, grounded and less stressed. The swaddling of young babies helps them to calm and sleep more peacefully.

5) Where the dog has come to believe that the owner WANTS it to behave this way, (most reactivity that I see is purely a habitual response) then the dog is often relieved that the owners NEW behaviour indicates that a violent and noisy reaction is NOT required from the dog and that the owner is now behaving in a more constructive way and taking action themselves, rather than relying on the dog. The dog is relieved of the stress that is associated with having to manipulate its environment

6) Where the dog is not frightened or anxious but just being over excited or overly friendly and wanting to meet the dog, as many are, then the dog realises through the techniques repetition that the owner is not going to allow the reaction and is determined to bring about a sense of calm instead, In this case the dog will simply issue calmer or quieter behaviour.

7) One of the most important aspects of the technique however is to do with the owner, not the dog. In many cases of reactivity the handler/owner has somehow come to inadvertently creat/reward/re-enforce the reactive or fearful behaviour by their own re-actions. Its no one's fault, it's just how it happens sometimes. Or they have come to reinforce in the dog that there is something worrying to react to! If the handler turns and drags the dog away, it can reinforce in the dog that there is something to worry about or fear. If the handler tries to distract with food or toys, it can reinforce in the dog that the handler wants the dog to react (you react, I reward you). If they shout, hit, swear at or violently man handle the dog they can reinforce that, when the stimulus in question (a dog or person) is present, the owner becomes violent and angry, so it is best to try to get rid of the offending stimulus.

8) Most importantly, this technique once understood and practised, changes the OWNERS internal state. When handling a reactive dog most owners feel a mixture of shame, embarrassment, concern, anxiety, stress, worry, panic, fear, dread, hopelessness and learned helplessness. Once they have something to focus on (how to use the technique and apply it) their internal state changes. They now have a sense of purpose, they have hope, concentration, determination, and when they see the changes happen so quickly they can start to have feelings of confidence, wonderment, hope and joy.

9) It is very well established that the internal state of an owner feeds down the lead, through the lead, collar or through touch. In the case of Turn and Face the handler is now transmitting, calmness, fluidity and hope into the dog via direct contact with the dog's collar, neck and head.

10) It has been established that emotional states are accompanied by changes to facial expression and by body posture changes, in humans. I believe it is the same in dogs. So many things about humans and dogs are the same. Or very similar. For example when a person is distressed, depressed or anxious, they are likely to hunch, to stoop, to visually focus on the floor or fixate on one thing. So, feelings, change our physical stance. But this can work in reverse as well. It has been established that facial and body posture changes can change the internal emotional state. It works both ways. Emotional state affects body posture and facial expression, BUT ALSO significantly, body posture and facial changes can affect emotional state. i.e. If a person deliberately stands tall and smiles, it can alter their internal emotional state for the better. With this technique, the body posture of a vigorously reactive dog, leaping and barking, is accompanied by frantic and raging emotional states. This technique usually alters the body posture from leaping and barking to stillness and silence. Stillness and silence are more often associated with feelings of calmness, acceptance and peace.

11) When a dog begins to realise (very quickly) that when it reacts its handler goes into panic, but when it STOPS reacting, the handler smiles, remains calm, sometimes cries happy tears, immediately falls in love with the dog again (if love had been lost as it often is), and they may reward the calm state.

12) After Turn and Face has been applied, and the dog has completely stilled and quietened, the owner can chose to offer a food reward. In our technique we offer the food on the floor, scattered so that the dog has to a) Lower its head to eat thereby stretching out and RELAXING its back and neck muscles and therefore further calming its internal emotional state and b) it's focus is shifted from reactivity to enjoyment as it eats and c) the lowering of the head is often considered as a calming signal, which can become a learned behaviour in the formerly reactive dog. Personally, I fluctuate in my thoughts about using food after Turn and Face. I wouldn't use it if the dog is likely to get riled up when food is delivered and certainly not if there is any chance of resource guarding of food or anything else is present in the cause of reactivity.

13) It is often observed in reactive or fearful dogs, that they will not eat whilst wound up. Interestingly in nearly every case, where food is offered after the application of Turn and Face, they do eat.

*14) *It also appears that the technique reinforces trust between the handler and dog, i.e. the handler is taking care of the situation so the dog learns to relax knowing no harm will come to him/her, and the owner trusts that the dog can work out more appropriate behaviours for the situation*. It is THERFORE CRUCIAL that NO HARM does come to the dog whilst in the technique position! Make sure the threat/simulus does not come and harm the dog. Do not use it if there are aggressive or incoming dogs - your dog will lose all its trust in you if you allow harm to come whilst in this position! *

In addition to the general levels of reactivity diminishing or halting completely, there are a number of other changes reported by owners or observers. One of the features seen after the use of Turn and Face in some, is a general change in it's behaviour in a variety of circumstances.

They often become more peaceful and calm at home. This escalation of trust, coupled with the confidence and calmness of both handler and dog, creates a pathway to long term permanent success and a deeper understanding between the dog and owner, which has a hugely beneficial effect on all aspects of their relationship.

Some dogs, when faced with an unpleasant stressor (not all stressors are unpleasant), will chose to place their head in the Turn and Face position. Seeking comfort.

Others show a generally more relaxed attitude to apparently unrelated incidents. One Beagle who came to one of reactivity events, was overly loud and boisterous on seeing other dogs. He also spent a long time whining and whinging and circling his owners during interview. After application of technique he visibly relaxed in the environment, disengaging from his whining circling behaviour and began instead to wag his tail and went round the audience greeting them and seeking attention, as well as ceasing his reactivity to dogs completely after only a few seconds.

My thoughts on this are still vague but I suspect a great deal has to do with the owners altered state from stress and panic and worry, to amazement, happiness and hope. Certainly when an owner/handler is relieved of the worry of a reactive dog and has a technique they can see is working, their attitude shifts dramatically and this is most evident to their dog. A calm happy owner is much more soothing to live and be with, than a stressed out, worried one.

This technique is not suitable for all dogs, especially those who are likely to redirect aggression onto their owner. Also for the positive chemical changes to take place in the brain (of both dog and handler) there needs to be a mutual trust already established, between the two.

If you use this technique you do so at your own risk - it can go wrong - and is NOT suitable for all dogs.

If you wish to use this technique then I strongly recommend that you buy the book that details a case study, follow up rehab and an appendix of more detailed 'how to do it' section. This book 'A Dog Behaviourist's Diary' is not solely about this technique. It also deals with people biting, sheep chasing, puppy farming and host of other dog related case studies, in storybook, murder/mystery format, designed to deliberately engage the reader in each real dog's story and the learning process.

References.

Partial sensory deprivation. http://www.markbancroft.com/info/sensory-deprivation

Calming effects of Deep Touch. http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.grandin.com%2Finc%2Fsqueeze.html&h=pAQHkEA24

The effects of touch and oxytocin levels. http://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/accumulating-glitches/how_dogs_and_humans_grewhttp://psychcentral.com/news/2012/10/16/poor-posture-can-affect-mood-energy/46112.html

How body posture affects emotional states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posture_%28psychology%29 My observations suggest that it most certainly does affect dogs in exactly the same way.

To order the book, please go to http://www.cadelac.co.uk/a-dog-behaviourist-s-diary

If there are any academics out there, who wish to conduct scientific experiments on this technique them please note that I would WELCOME it most heartily. But please do involve me. I have many testimonials available for this technique. Thank you for reading. Denise


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## Tyton (Mar 9, 2013)

I haven't commented before, but have read this, and the other threads about the 'technique'. I'd say I'm still not entirely sure about the special way of holding the collar part of it?, still don't get all the 'secrecy' and pussy footing about the subject that was present in these discussions. But do suspect this does work to some extent.



CaDeLac Denise said:


> Some dogs, when faced with an unpleasant stressor (not all stressors are unpleasant), will chose to place their head in the Turn and Face position. Seeking comfort.


Ronin does this automatically. A few weeks ago we were at a fun show, a dog that has on several occasions snarled, lunged, aggressed towards Ronin (and towards my other dogs) approached us, offlead, it's owner totally oblivious to the potential problem, and Ronin saw Ozzie coming, turned to me and thrust his head into my chest (I was kneeling at the time). He stood there, back to the 'threat' muttering at me while I hugged him and ruffled his head until the dog had passed. *I * didn't hold him, *he* automatically chose to do this.

We've done it a few times since when he's kicked off at some supposed threat, rather than move away from the snarling growling monster, just move him into us and hugged him tight til he subsides.

I'm also quite sure it isn't for everyone/everydog and I wouldn't reccommend it to folks for that reason, but my sensitive wee soul sometimes needs a bit of reassurance and it seems to help him.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2016)

Tyton said:


> I haven't commented before, but have read this, and the other threads about the 'technique'. I'd say I'm still not entirely sure about the special way of holding the collar part of it?, still don't get all the 'secrecy' and pussy footing about the subject that was present in these discussions. But do suspect this does work to some extent.
> 
> Ronin does this automatically. A few weeks ago we were at a fun show, a dog that has on several occasions snarled, lunged, aggressed towards Ronin (and towards my other dogs) approached us, offlead, it's owner totally oblivious to the potential problem, and Ronin saw Ozzie coming, turned to me and thrust his head into my chest (I was kneeling at the time). He stood there, back to the 'threat' muttering at me while I hugged him and ruffled his head until the dog had passed. *I * didn't hold him, *he* automatically chose to do this.
> 
> ...


Bates does something similar.
When he's highly excited and trying to apply self-control he will often lean on me hard with his body. For example, watching a flock of deer run off while out walking, he knows he's not allowed to chase but really wants to, so he leans up against me and whines while I reassure him and tell him what a good boy he is for not chasing. 
It could also be because we have put chase on cue and he's waiting (hoping) to be cued. I've seen similar behavior in bite sport dogs waiting to be released to the bite. 
It's not a need for reassurance I don't think, he's not upset, he's just working hard at impulse control.

Breez OTOH is purely reassurance when we're at the vet and she has to have a thermometer up her butt. She chooses on her own to shove her head in my armpit, and I let her. Dork. But hey, whatever works!

But yes, all dog's choice to go to the owner.


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## Tyton (Mar 9, 2013)

@ouesi, Ronin could be using it for impulse control, but I think if he was looking for a cue from me, a sign, he'd do his usual shove his bum at me, this was a very deliberate walk directly in front of me put his head down and shove hard into my chest/stomach. Sort of like the kid who puts his fingers in his ears and sings to avoid listening to you, He made himself unable to see/hear the other dog so didn't have to respond? At the end of the day, I'm not too fussed about overanalysing. He could have responded to the older dog's growls (he's had enough provocation from that particular dog on several occasions) but *chose* to divert and mutter at/to me instead, so I'm happy with the outcome


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## raven45 (Mar 31, 2016)

Hard one , my rescue would be considered a badly behaved dog as she barks at dogs passing by. its seriously all noise if she got 5 mins with them she would be running around with them but she has her issues as shes from a poor background. I am constantly scanning the area for any other dogs. put her on the lead immediately and then walk another path to avoid upsetting people. sometimes I dont get her on to time and we run into other dogs she runs towards them. barks then runs off again. still cant be nice for other people to see her bark but she bolts soon after .


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> For example, watching a flock of deer run off while out walking, he knows he's not allowed to chase but really wants to, so he leans up against me and whines while I reassure him and tell him what a good boy he is for not chasing.


Thai does this too. If the deer (or whatever he wants to chase) is close he shivers in excitement too.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2016)

There is often great deal of benefit to be had from making physical contact with your dog, as long as yo are feeling calm and relaxed inside. Reactivity is no fun for anyone, least of all the reactive dog. It's great to hear of dogs volunteering for touch when they need it the most. It has a superb, relaxing affect on so many and is something which is so overlooked in many behaviour rehab programmes. All good .


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2016)

CaDeLac Denise said:


> There is often great deal of benefit to be had from making physical contact with your dog, as long as yo are feeling calm and relaxed inside. Reactivity is no fun for anyone, least of all the reactive dog. It's great to hear of dogs volunteering for touch when they need it the most. It has a superb, relaxing affect on so many and is something which is so overlooked in many behaviour rehab programmes. All good .


I'm surprised you find physical touch to be an overlooked part of b-mod. In my experience plenty of trainers and behaviorists use things like Dr. Overall's relaxation protocol, massage techniques, TTouch... All are incorporated in to b-mod protocols. And besides, most owners enjoy physical contact with their dogs (as do many dogs) so it just happens naturally 

One of my dogs deliberately steps on my foot at times. I know it's on purpose, he just likes having that contact - he's a werido though


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Thing I find with all the various training techniques is that they are only effective if other people control their animals... I cannot teach my dog that other's are not a threat when tbh, often they are! 
I cannot really teach my dog to sit and focus on me, or to come away, when there is a totally out of control, dog humping her or biting at her face. 

So, it's easy to judge, when you see someone struggling with there dog, but you are seeing a snapshot of several months or years or time and effort invested in training, maybe they are having a bad day, maybe they just need to get their dog to the car or vet, maybe they've just had a run in with their dog's nemesis, maybe they are following their trainer's advice... etc etc. 

Biggest thing for me is, if your dog has no recall, keep it on a lead - I am more than happy to accommodate other dog walkers, I'd appreciate the same consideration


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Interesting technique, this turn and face thing. But I suppose you would have to be very careful if you had a dog that was prone to redirection, couldnt that just get you bitten??
Alfie is one of those Tasmanian Devil dogs when he see's another dog. As it is we mainly do pavement walks so we dont run into off lead dogs and I am always happy to cross roads and give others a wide berth, walking away quickly and quietly seems to work best for us. TBH I dont think he will ever be good with other dogs, although he has improved. He may pull towards buggies, shopping trollies, cats, etc but he doesnt bark, whine, screech, leap about and generally act like he's possessed around them....its just dogs now! Still, I figure walks are such a small part of his day that we can cope!


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

The other day I was walking Polo along a path next to a small park. There were a few people stood with their dogs,chatting. One of the young dogs saw Polo and I noted that it seemed drawn to him. Later on as I walked back, the little dog was still there and left the park to follow me and Polo up the road. The owner was calling but he ignored.

I stopped and waited, so the dog didn't end up further up the road, something I would not have done in the past as I would have needed to put more distance in before he kicked off. The dog started yapping at Polo but kept a short distance away. Polo just looked at it. The owner caught up, apologising and leashed up her dog then asked if she could bring her dog up to Polo to meet him! I said probably not a great idea as he's not a fan of greeting other dogs on lead. Felt very proud that to all intents and purposes she thought Polo looked friendly. 

Whilst this was going on some people with two dogs had walked up behind me and Polo smiling and looking on and Polo just decided too much going on here and shoved his head into me. It was so lovely that he now sees this as an alternative action to yelling his head off.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2016)

For those that were interested in knowing how my techqniue Turn and Face works out long term, we begun putting a video library together together with owner feedback. We have quite a lot of info available for viewing now on FB. But here is a little dog who was helped by turn and face at my lat reactivity event about 4 weeks ago. This dog was a rescue with a very upsetting past. He was aggressive both to humans and to dogs. At the event, we used turn and face and worked with him for around 15 minutes. After that the owner did all the work herself, as is the often the way with this technique. When I met him , he had bitten 8 people, he hated their son and wouldn't let him near the owners. He was tearing at his lead aggressively in frustration and had been kept away from most animals and people because he was dangerous. he would approach. The videos is attached of him going out for the first time since treatment with other dogs and people. Plus owners comments. If anyone wants access to the video library and owner feedback then please contact me.

This technique is now beginning to receive worldwide attention and use/success. We have another event on 19th November, with just a few spectators places left. I have been asked to do other workshops in Preston, Scotland, and possibly France, so watch our website if you wish to book a handler place.

Owner Comments "
Stan update...... as most people in this group know Stan was reactive to people, dogs, benches, trees, cars , stuff really...... !!!! Then we included him in a turn and face workshop with results that reduced me to tears as he was able to calm despite being surrounded by people he didn't know and other dogs. The most special was when he allowed my son to approach me without reacting when previously he had hated he passionately. I felt as if our lives had changed!

After th...e day of the workshop we have gone out and about meeting people and dogs and he has done very well. He ignores people who ignore him when previously he would have barked, lunged and maybe even bitten. If people speak to us he can remain calm and even if they approach he is ok. He makes it clear that he does not want them to touch him but this is with a firm growl, maybe a couple of barks or by backing away and this is only when he thinks they are about to enter just space.

He has been on group dog walks and I have shared video of these where he seems as calm and happy as any dog that had never had issues..... when meeting new dogs he is usually excited but seldom reactive and on the odd occasion where he does revert to barking and being silly I turn and face him briefly and we are able to move on in seconds. Sometimes he does not even react when another dog barks at him.









Yet still I have a problem...... I have not let him off lead with unknown dogs around him.... which translates to I pretty much ham not brave enough to let him off lead...... that will be our next step and I do know this is now my issue not his







"

Video of the firsts group walk after treatment that Stan went on


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Using touch as a means to reassure/calm a dog is nothing new to me, it's something I use all the time with both my dogs. It worked extremely well with my Pei girl in the first year of her life when she suffered from poor eyesight which resulted in her having panic attacks. Now at 3 years old whenever she feels anxious or unsure she'll come and lean against me and I only have to put my hand on her back and talk to her quietly to calm her down.

After having a frightening experience a few months ago when we found ourselves trapped between a dog rushing and barking behind a fence and a dozen cyclists riding along the pavement immediately in front of us, (long story) my other dog, a Mini Schnauzer, became fearful of dogs and cyclists that come too close to him and will give a warning growl. I've been working with him using touch and verbal reassurance and although he still has his moments, he's now able to ignore most dogs and cyclists no longer bother him.

Yesterday my son and I took the dogs to the vet for their annual Rabies vaccinations and routine check up. With very good reason my Pei is terrified of going to the vet and pants and shakes with fear until the visit's over. As my son was looking after her I told him whilst we were waiting, to make sure some part of his body was always in contact with hers and to massage her back, which he did. Although she was still obviously scared she was calm enough to say a brief hello to a GSD puppy who was also in the waiting room With only having one dog to watch I was able to give my Schnauzer my full attention and whilst we were waiting to see the vet he ignored the puppy and spent his time with his paws on my knees, looking into my eyes whilst I murmured sweet nothings to him.

After being examined and vaccinated to save her from further stress, my son took my Pei back to the car leaving me in the surgery with my Schnauzer boy. Unfortunately when we opened the surgery door to leave we found ourselves confronted with an enormous hairy dog and his owner blocking the doorway. My boy immediately reacted by snarling, but before he could lunge, I quickly picked him up had held him in my arms. He actually did me proud because once in my arms I was able to walk past the dog (and a couple of others) without a wriggle or a peep out of him!


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