# Breeders, keeping from first litter



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

This has been coming up for me a lot recently, as I hope to have my first litter next year so I'm curious as to your opinions.

Did you keep from your very first litter, and what were your reasons? 

I know type always comes first, so I would think if a good type was produced then it would be kept, but would you keep for more sentimental reasons, to extend your breeding, or similar? Or would you wait until a 2nd litter onwards to get to grips with it all first?

Would appreciate your experiences


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I didn't keep any from my first queen, my very precious Leila and I so wish I had  I wanted a lilac point girl from her and she gave me the most stunning lilac point boy in her first litter - all of the girls were blue points. Same again with her next litter. 3rd litter nothing suitable and so on. I bought in other girls but had a run of problems until I got Gracie, who is Leila's great niece.
I have a girl from Gracie's first litter and may keep a girl from her if she has one suitable


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I kept a girl from my first litter, definitely not for her type. Because she was a 'funny' coloured lilac I hoped she carried cinnamon and she did. (Nowadays a quick swab would provide the answer but in those days you had to take a chance.) I am not a fan of 'type comes first.' What about temperament and colour? In my breeds, good colour has been lost in so many lines that have concentrated on the 'ears stuck on the side of the head' mentality. What about size? That is another crucial consideration in choosing a breeding queen.

Ideally waiting until a later litter would be a good idea but nobody has a crystal ball and sometimes plans can go awry. If there is a suitable candidate, it can be hard to make a decision and there is no right or wrong answer.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Thanks both, this is the dilemma I struggle with. As I'm in Maine Coons, colour isn't lost as we're obviously limited on colours anyway, but type vs personality is a huge dilemma, as is size - small MC queens often give large kittens. Not a hard and fast rule, of course, but seems to happen based on what breeders tell me.

I suppose I'll only know when the litter happens and what I get. Kittens will always be under observation until at least 9 weeks anyway, so I'd have time to see how they mature. 

It's great to read others' experiences to get a well rounded view.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I didn't keep from my first litter because they simply weren't good enough. I kept a girl from the second litter though. I wouldn't keep for sentimental reasons, that way madness lies. Temperament is important but I wouldn't keep a kitten with a fab temperament if it had shocking type for example. You will never get perfection, there will always be a flaw, the thing you must do as a breeder is decide what is acceptable when all the factors are taken in balance.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Genetics for Cat Breeders has a very helpful section on scoring different qualities to help assess whether or not to keep.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Thank you Tigermoon, yes I agree that type and personality need to be balanced. It will be a case of see what I have when I have it, I think.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> Genetics for Cat Breeders has a very helpful section on scoring different qualities to help assess whether or not to keep.


Thank you, I didn't know that so will look it up


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

QOTN said:


> Genetics for Cat Breeders has a very helpful section on scoring different qualities to help assess whether or not to keep.


Have you ever heard of the 'Stickdog' pedigree @QOTN ? Its a way of recording your breeding animals so you can see what might pop up in offspring, and how to improve future offspring. Its for dogs of course but could be easily adapted.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> Have you ever heard of the 'Stickdog' pedigree @QOTN ? Its a way of recording your breeding animals so you can see what might pop up in offspring, and how to improve future offspring. Its for dogs of course but could be easily adapted.


No @Tigermoon I know nothing about dogs. How can it tell what might 'pop up?' Do you mean defects?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

QOTN said:


> No @Tigermoon I know nothing about dogs. How can it tell what might 'pop up?' Do you mean defects?


Yes, you draw each dog in a stickman style. Each part is drawn in a colour that indicates if the 'part' is to standard, below standard but acceptable, or has a fault. From what I remember each dog was split into head, ears, neck, body, tail, forelegs and hindlegs. By creating a whole pedigree of these coloured stickdogs you can see what faults are travelling through the line and try to avoid them. Over the years you'd create a visual history of the animals within your breeding program. Or at least I think that was the idea. I'll see if I can find the website again, it was some time ago that I first came across it.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Here is is. http://breedingbetterdogs.com/article/stickdog-pedigree


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Thank you for the link @Tigermoon, that seems like a brilliant idea and definitely worth a try!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> Thank you for the link @Tigermoon, that seems like a brilliant idea and definitely worth a try!


It will only work if you are completely subjective about your animals, which is easier said than done sometimes


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## lizziejayne (Aug 8, 2017)

ive had 2 litters from my queen and i kept both maybe im soft lol first litter was born 24/07/2016 she had 3 2 girls 1 boy selkirk rex all long haired curly a golden fawn boy, cream/bi girl and a bi colour girl
she had another litter 10/04/17 5 one died at 36 hours old the remaining 4 are 2 boys 2 girls 17 weeks and adorable
long haired curly blue boy, long haired straight blue girl shorthaired curly bi colour girl and short haired curly blue/white boy
im told before i got my queen she d had previous litters not sure now many
all 7 kittens are amazing 3 are 12 months old now


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## Lula10101 (Aug 11, 2017)

Do you find that it is obvious from a very early age which kittens will have the best type, or does it only become obvious as they get much older?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Lula10101 said:


> Do you find that it is obvious from a very early age which kittens will have the best type, or does it only become obvious as they get much older?


I won't make a start to think about it until the kittens are at least 8 weeks old and often I haven't made a firm decision for another couple of weeks. In my breeds certain faults often don't show up until quite late.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

To be honest, I normally am able to predict at birth which is going to be the best in the litter and which not, but am never confident enough to stand by my gut as, quite rightly, others don't even begin to look at show potential until the kittens are much, much older. I second guess myself all the time as I watch the kittens develop, as they change sooooo much in the first few weeks, and the promiser at birth is always the ugliest duckling! That's when I second guess and convince myself I'm mental for ever having believed that kitten was promising. By about 8 weeks, you can see the good looks creeping back in, but I'm never entirely sure until they're 12/13 weeks old and ready for rehoming, and even then I'd far rather run a kitten on until their adult teeth are through, as again in my breed, the faults show up late.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Just for the sake of clarity, I am not a breeder who ever states that a kitten has show potential at birth. The majority of people who do that, unless incredibly experienced with lines they've been working with for many, many years, are to be avoided.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Thanks all, it's good to get some experienced advice. It's reassuring to know that keeping from a first litter is acceptable, I'm hoping I'll get a tortie smoke with white to keep provided type is decent.

Show quality is so different to breeding quality I think, you can match less desirable type to more desirable type to get nicely balanced kittens but if type isn't there for show you're stuffed! I think predicting for show type is much harder, particularly in slow developing breeds like mine as they go through about 50 different stages of development before they look the full package. For this reason (as well as neutering), kittens won't be leaving me before 14 weeks as I also want to encourage my kitten owners to show too.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> , you can match less desirable type to more desirable type to get nicely balanced kittens .


Don't forget that the random inheritance of polygenes ensures that there are no certainties in this game. So often two excellent cats produce very ordinary offspring together. Many times cats take after their grandparents rather than their parents so you do have to know your pedigrees not only for health reasons but also breeding potential.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> Don't forget that the random inheritance of polygenes ensures that there are no certainties in this game. So often two excellent cats produce very ordinary offspring together. Many times cats take after their grandparents rather than their parents so you do have to know your pedigrees not only for health reasons but also breeding potential.


Definitely, I've learnt a very hard lesson with that. I got a neuter to show who had great potential as a kitten and then went horribly wrong as he got bigger. He's nearly 2 now and has only come on in the last few months.

I stupidly got his half sister (same stud, different queens), completely rushing into it and seeing a cute kitten. Mum had already had some issues with previous litters so was not the greatest option, and I refused to listen to the breeder. As she's developed, I realised very quickly that she is pretty poor type. Her personality is wonderful, she would have made a great mum and would have hopefully passed on her wonderful nature to her kittens, buy her type would have required a very strong type boy for balance, and that would in itself have no guarantees.

I was gutted, but it was my own fault. I didn't take the time to look at the pedigree, or to look past the flaws in both parents of which she seems to have inherited most of them.

This time, I've taken my time. I've looked at the pedigrees as well as the parents and past litters to see what's been produced. This is the first time this mating has been done but both parents have incredibly good type, one being from a very well known German cattery, so I'm confident that they will balance each other out. Grandparents and great grandparents on both sides are excellent type so I have more confidence in this mating. It's a different breeder too.

A hard lesson learned there, but the earlier the better in many ways. My poor type girl is neutered and is my little fuss bum, she is back out on the show bench next year which I couldn't be more excited for


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I kept Eadlin from my first litter - she was the only girl, she was fawn, and she's a GrCh now so a reasonable example of the breed. I kept Tia from another litter as her type looked decent (it is), her colour was excellent and she was a wonderfully outgoing kitten. Being realistic, I've not sold a kitten for breeding so far and people buying pets want happy, confident kittens so I see no point in keeping the shyest kitten because it looks like it will have the best type.

Of course they want healthy long-lived kittens as well, but that's a big ask since mostly we have no idea how long the ancestors of our cats lived. I don't mean a generation or two back, I mean 6+ generations. One doesn't know if a cat will be long-lived until (especially for females) well after it's breeding career is over.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> Definitely, I've learnt a very hard lesson with that. I got a neuter to show who had great potential as a kitten and then went horribly wrong as he got bigger. He's nearly 2 now and has only come on in the last few months.
> <snip>


Fingers crossed for you. BTW what breed is this?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Thanks @OrientalSlave it's Maine Coons. I think personality definitely has to come before type. Yes type is important for showing and breeding, but as you say most folk just want a pet that's a registered pedigree with an outgoing personality that will settle into their home well. They're not fussed on ear set or muzzle shape!

I'm quite nervous about starting it all, especially with trying to find the right homes and I don't want to make the same mistake as I already have done, so having to be quite stern with myself. Possibly too much as I told myself I shouldn't keep from first litter as I need to learn more.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Thanks @OrientalSlave it's Maine Coons. I think personality definitely has to come before type. Yes type is important for showing and breeding, but as you say most folk just want a pet that's a registered pedigree with an outgoing personality that will settle into their home well. They're not fussed on ear set or muzzle shape!
> 
> I'm quite nervous about starting it all, especially with trying to find the right homes and I don't want to make the same mistake as I already have done, so having to be quite stern with myself. Possibly too much as I told myself I shouldn't keep from first litter as I need to learn more.


Strangely enough, If I were in your position, I would not keep from my first litter if the general type and temperament is good. In that case you will know you are on the right track and I would caution against keeping too many girls at the beginning unless you have already decided to out them when you have finished using them. (I have said my piece about that in the past so shall say nothing.)

In my position I was trying to promote new colours so my choices were very different and I suspect that OS was influenced in her decision by colour as well.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> <snip>
> 
> In my position I was trying to promote new colours so my choices were very different and I suspect that OS was influenced in her decision by colour as well.


Colour did affect my decision but I also had much more experienced breeders telling me she was promising. If she had had a tail fault for example she wouldn't have stayed.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

QOTN said:


> I would caution against keeping too many girls at the beginning


A very pertinent point and a very easy trap to fall into. I know someone who started off with just one girl, bought another just four months later then within two years had either bought or bred and retained a further seven cats, some at vast expense from abroad. They still weren't experienced enough with the breed, became completely over-faced, and just six months later had given up and rehomed the lot!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Thank you all, yes this is what concerned me. I am also breeding to bring in specific colours - solids and smokes - so would keep a smoke if type were good enough as they are a real challenge to find, however, I would limit myself to one only. I have a very limited home space (well, don't we all really) so I'm really conscious of not going mad and keeping loads or buying loads and then being overrun. It's more important for me to establish my own lines over a long period of time, starting off on a very small scale and only expanding when time, room, money, etc., allow. 

I'm glad you all said the same thing though, about both keeping and space, as it's something I do need to keep reminding myself of even now, and will probably need to remind myself of even more in the future!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I feel that how many cats you have room for depends on your pocket and the cats themselves. Some large groups get on really well, others are having serious social disputes with as few as two cats. I do hope if you find you have a bully or a victim you are prepared to rehome to restore harmony. It always worries me when a breeder claims they never rehome - to me they are putting themselves above the welfare of their cats.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> I feel that how many cats you have room for depends on your pocket and the cats themselves. Some large groups get on really well, others are having serious social disputes with as few as two cats. I do hope if you find you have a bully or a victim you are prepared to rehome to restore harmony. It always worries me when a breeder claims they never rehome - to me they are putting themselves above the welfare of their cats.


I have never rehomed. You do not know anything about the welfare of my cats.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I have never rehomed. You do not know anything about the welfare of my cats.


You are lucky you've not had to.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> You are *lucky* you've not had to.


I was 'lucky' that I chose a girl with a lovely temperament for my foundation queen. I bred on from her over the years instead of buying in girls from here, there and everywhere like some people do. I was 'lucky' I had the sense to stop breeding for a while rather than risk adding to my numbers because I never considered that breeding was more important than my cats. I would have neutered them all to restore harmony if it had been necessary but I was 'lucky' that I did not have to.

In my experience most girls settle down very quickly after spaying and enjoy life as a neuter. Even if they take a little longer, it is only a small part of their life if you expect them to live well into their teens as mine generally have.

I am not ashamed to admit I love my cats. I think they love me too so why would I out them as soon as they are no further 'use' to me? I am arrogant enough to think I can give them at least as good a life as anybody else.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I think the issue of rehoming is contentious. We have a moggy who is not overly happy, so we'll be giving her her own space away from the rest, where she will still get time with us. If that doesn't work, however, and if she's becoming more and more stressed, she will be rehomed as an only cat for her own wellbeing. She was a rescue we took on at 12 weeks after she'd been taken from mum at 6 weeks, and she came with all of the behavioural problems one would expect and then some. We've done a lot of work with her and she is very dear to us, but her stress level and health is more important than how we feel about her. 

Similarly, if things weren't working out with the breeding, I would look at the cause and effect and take the appropriate action based on what's best for both the individuals and the group as a whole. As every situation is different, and every cat is different, I wouldn't want to make a blanket statement of I will or wouldn't do x, y or z. I am willing to be flexible based on the needs of the cats, which I consider to be my biggest responsibility as a breeder.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I had 2 girls to start with, girl one I kept something from her first litter and petted her out at about 6 months.
The other girl I kept from, that 'kitten' became a silver double grand champion producing gold champions, best in show winners and cat of the year in show neuters & entires.

I know from birth who I'm likely to keep. I do rehome retirees, they usually go with a kitten, as I feel that's best for them and to continue our program without overcrowding.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

spotty cats said:


> I had 2 girls to start with, girl one I kept something from her first litter and petted her out at about 6 months.
> The other girl I kept from, that 'kitten' became a silver double grand champion producing gold champions, best in show winners and cat of the year in show neuters & entires.
> 
> I know from birth who I'm likely to keep. I do rehome retirees, they usually go with a kitten, as I feel that's best for them and to continue our program without overcrowding.


Retiring with a kitten is very sensible, and not something I had even thought of. Certainly an option for us to explore in the future if we need it, I can certainly see the advantages of it.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

There are 2 arguments even for this though. There's yours, and then there's the other side which says that surely you should be putting good type to good type when you're breeding, to avoid perpetuating faults that the parents have. Therefore, only the best show cats should be bred. When you keep a stud for example, you want a top notch boy as he's going to severely influence your breeding programme going forward, so shouldn't this be the same on both sides?

I fall somewhere in the middle. No cat is perfect, so every one will have a fault somewhere. If I'm keeping something back, I try to ensure that whatever fault it has, I have something else that can offset that.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Similarly, if things weren't working out with the breeding, I would look at the cause and effect and *take the appropriate action based on* *what's best for both the individuals and the group as a whole*. As every situation is different, and every cat is different, I wouldn't want to make a blanket statement of I will or wouldn't do x, y or z. I am willing to be flexible based on the needs of the cats, which I consider to be my biggest responsibility as a breeder.


The case of your rescue cat is not really relevant here. You have worked with her and found that she probably needs a home on her own. That is very different from breeding from a girl until she has served your purpose and then outing her.

If she was unhappy in a multi-cat situation it would be more responsible to home her when you have run her on a while in the same way you might if a girl developed a fault. (I bought in my last girl who was coming down my line but I never bred from her because she had colour faults. I just neutered her and did not breed again because to me, rehoming her was not an option since she had already been homed to me but I have no problem with the idea of kittens or cats going to new homes while they are young.)

Would your 'appropriate action' include giving up breeding? You see I always considered my responsibility is as a cat owner first and foremost not as a breeder.

This really is my problem here. I know many breeders who blithely out their cats but insist on 'permanent' homes for the kittens they sell. I do not see the difference between a cat who is rehomed because it has finished breeding and one who is rehomed because a new baby is arriving or because it clashes with the new colour scheme.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

QOTN said:


> That is very different from breeding from a girl until she has served your purpose and then outing her.


That's a very harsh way of putting it. I didn't rehome as a matter of course but I did if it meant a cat would be happier somewhere else. I've had retired queens who became midwives and favourite aunties when retired and therefore stayed - and a couple who fell right down the hierarchy once neutered and became miserable in a multi cat environment. Those I rehomed and whereas I cried buckets they thrived. There's no moral high ground in keeping an unhappy cat.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

havoc said:


> There's no moral high ground in keeping an unhappy cat.


Goodness me, I did not realise I was so bad at expressing myself. Did I really give the impression I was advocating making cats unhappy? That is the complete reverse of what I intended.

What I did say is that most cats will settle down when neutered. Some may be better with other neutered rather than entire cats. If everything possible and I repeat everything possible has been tried, of course it would be right to rehome, but make no mistake, If a girl has lived happily in her home for years, she may adapt to a new home since cats are survivors, but surely it is not as good as keeping her in her original situation.

How often do you hear of a girl being neutered then outed a couple of weeks later because 'she was not happy?' It takes time.

I see all sorts of breeders because I am a welfare officer for a club. I cannot face the trauma of actual rescuing but I do fund raise to help the heroes who take on rescue cats. I would say that, in my breed, these days the majority will be 'problem cats' or breeders' rejects. Some cats do lose their homes because their owner has died but these are in the minority. The 'normal' ones tend to be sold on since purchasers seem to like the idea of a bargain pedigree cat. So often these breeders' cats in rescue cannot be handled, are sick or even dying and the rescue is supposed to pick up the pieces and fund their costs. These are not necessarily BYBs. I expect people would be shocked if they were named.

I do not for a moment suggest that breeders on this forum would act in this way but the principle of responsibility for the cat throughout its life remains the same.

Sometimes homes are needed for a perfectly happy cat because they are no longer required. I found a home for such a girl whose breeder discussed the situation in front of her young daughters who were visibly distressed. She admitted they would be heartbroken. The cat had the upheaval of a new home, she coped but it has taken years for her true personality to return and presumably the daughters learned the lesson that animals are disposable.

I am not advocating huge numbers of entires and neuters all kept together in a mass. That is inexcusable. I know a breeder who complained to me because people criticised her for keeping all her cats but that was because she just kept buying more and more and more........... In my view that shows the same attitude. At all costs the breeding programme must continue.

(I said I would not expand on this subject but now I have. Oh dear. Please accept my apologies.)


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

carly87 said:


> There are 2 arguments even for this though. There's yours, and then there's the other side which says that surely you should be putting good type to good type when you're breeding, to avoid perpetuating faults that the parents have. Therefore, only the best show cats should be bred. When you keep a stud for example, you want a top notch boy as he's going to severely influence your breeding programme going forward, so shouldn't this be the same on both sides?
> 
> I fall somewhere in the middle. No cat is perfect, so every one will have a fault somewhere. If I'm keeping something back, I try to ensure that whatever fault it has, I have something else that can offset that.


Yes, good type to good type is a must certainly, but sometimes I think one can sacrifice some type in favour of personality. For example, a friend of mine had a beautiful queen who could have gone far but unfortunately showing wasn't for her. She was incredibly moody at home, loved her human mumma but wasn't keen on visitors, really didn't like other cats, and kept everyone at bay with a superior look and a swipe. She was an excellent mum herself and produced excellent type kittens, but some of her stand offish personality did come through in some of her kittens.

As I will be homing kittens as pets predominantly, I do think that continued breeding from such a stand offish personality was an extra challenge for my friend. So in that instance, I think personality should have come before type and perhaps any active kittens in those lines should be kept by the breeder only, which is actually what happened - she didn't sell any on the active from her and only kept 2 daughters. Those daughters who were slightly stand offish then produced lovely kittens of good type and good personality, so it filtered down. Whether I would do the same, I can't say as I'm not in that position at the moment. I think my friend perhaps created some extra work for herself, but then it paid off for her to her credit. It's a case by case basis, I think.

I do agree that some faults can absolutely be bred out with good type matching - if I had a girl with a weak chin or wide ear set, I would make sure to match her only with strong muzzled boys or boys with tight ears, but then I would do that with any girl, whether I had bought her or bred her. I have made some very tentative enquiries into boys with a view to getting one a good few years down the line, as I want to see what girls I produce to keep in order to get a good balance between them and any prospective boy. It's certainly a long haul game for me, which is partly why I'm asking these questions and really enjoying the discussion we're all having - it's massively helping my learning.



QOTN said:


> The case of your rescue cat is not really relevant here. You have worked with her and found that she probably needs a home on her own. That is very different from breeding from a girl until she has served your purpose and then outing her.
> 
> If she was unhappy in a multi-cat situation it would be more responsible to home her when you have run her on a while in the same way you might if a girl developed a fault. (I bought in my last girl who was coming down my line but I never bred from her because she had colour faults. I just neutered her and did not breed again because to me, rehoming her was not an option since she had already been homed to me but I have no problem with the idea of kittens or cats going to new homes while they are young.)
> 
> ...


I think for me the rescue and future breeding cats are one and the same - any girl I have for breeding will be, first and foremost, my baby. Likewise when I eventually get a boy. I would have put an equal, albeit different, amount of work into a breeding cat than I have into my rescue, between showing, helping her when in labour, helping her with her kittens, and that bond would certainly be there and would, if anything, be even stronger than the bond I have with my rescue.

I also have to be acutely aware of the impact breeding has on my family and my home, and making sure there's a balance between all of it. I would dearly, dearly love to keep all of my retirees but that's not always going to be a possibility. I don't particularly agree to rehoming at the drop of a hat once the retiree had 'served their purpose', as it were, but I would have to strike a balance between maintaining my lines and keeping my babies.

I'm not massively happy at the prospect of rehoming, and have said that certainly my foundation queen and ideally her daughter will be kept. All being well, I won't need to consider rehoming for another 6-8 years at least with starting with those two - my foundation queen hasn't even been born yet, I'm still waiting on a mating, and so many things could happen in that time. We could move, I could have to forego breeding altogether, anything.

If, however, I needed to keep retirees or neuters due to health or really anything else, there was no option to rehome (either because it's not physically possible or I want them to stay, etc.), and it meant I would have to stop breeding then yes I would stop breeding. As much as I would strive to keep a balance between both sides, they are my babies first and foremost, my responsibility is to those currently living and not to those who I choose to create by putting cats together.

It's nice to see a discussion as opposed to an argument, and I think everyone is right to put their experience forward - it's the only way for newbies like me to learn and may also highlight to anyone thinking of breeding that there's a lot more to it than just putting cats together. So although you didn't intend to expand on it, I'm very glad you have


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

QOTN said:


> The 'normal' ones tend to be sold on since purchasers seem to like the idea of a bargain pedigree cat.


Again I think that's very harsh. There's no way a retired queen has ever been pushed out of my house, if anything I held onto them longer than I should while trying everything to rebalance the dynamic. I didn't advertise them, I waited for the 'right' phone call each time and I didn't charge a penny for them. The new homes came through as normal kitten enquiries from people quite happy to pay and evolved into the idea of taking a 'normal' adult girl who needed a lap of her own. Only last month I drove the hundred or so miles for lunch to see my beloved girl so happy and loved a year after moving on. I had a lovely lunch and left in tears but absolutely sure I'd done the right thing.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Couldn't have said it better myself Havoc. Every time I've rehomed it's broken me so badly, but every time it's been right for the cat. I will not rehome just because a cat is no good for breeding any more (Mr T is living proof of that as the little bugger hasn't worked a day in his life!) However, the happiness of every cat in my house comes before my own. If cats need to be divided into closed rooms just to keep them happy, I'm afraid that doesn't work for me, and while I'm happy to keep males and females apart to avoid matings, that's as far as it goes. I certainly wouldn't get rid of a cat just because they'd finished breeding, nor because they'd passed their usefulness!

Rufus, I think personality is integral to any breeding programme, and have personally neutered whole lines because of skittish personalities. I forget that this isn't a given for everyone, but for me, personality's the first box that's ticked in deciding if a cat is for breeding or not. If they are of excellent type with a horrid personality, they don't get bred. But I also wouldn't keep just because the personality was good if the type was bad. They go hand in hand.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Yes I agree with you Carly. You need both for a good breeding programme.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

A few months ago I received the very kind offer of a 3 or 4 year old adult pedigree from a fantastic line. The cat had never been used for breeding as there had been a minor medical issue related to that when she was a kitten (otherwise a perfectly healthy cat) and I got the distinct feeling that this was not an offer the owner made very often and that they simply thought I could provide a particularly good home for a cat that was perfectly happy but may have been even happier in an environment where she got a bit more 1 on 1 time with less cats around.

I did (very reluctantly) decline the offer as it just didn't suit my circumstances at the time, but as a 'purchaser' rather than a breeder, I was incredibly touched that someone I respect would make an offer like that as I know how much your cats mean to a great many breeders.

It must be amazing to raise a cat from birth to the end of a happy life, im not really sure that I would be suited for it, but I deeply respect many of those who do it.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Smuge said:


> It must be amazing to raise a cat from birth to the end of a happy life, im not really sure that I would be suited for it, but I deeply respect many of those who do it.


I did it myself years ago. I fostered a pregnant cat for an acquaintance of mine who was homeless due to domestic violence. The cat gave birth to 4 kittens. The plan was for the mother cat and one of the kittens to go back to the owner once she had found a new home. I intended to keep 3 of the kittens myself. (I had no other cats at the time)

The owner moved miles away to live with a new partner, and kept making excuses as to why she could not collect her cat and the kitten. Eventually when the kittens were 6 months old she reluctantly came to collect her cat but did not want the kitten. The kitten was by then part of my family so I kept him along with the other 3 kittens.

I loved knowing the history of my kittens and the history of their mother. And it was wonderful seeing them grow up from tiny babies into confident cats. Looking back perhaps I had a closer relationship with those 4 kitties than cats I have had since, but if so it was only marginally closer.


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