# hand rearing...



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

hello all!
i'll start with an apology for a long post as this will probably take some explaining 

3 (?) months ago my sister adopted a kitten from the shelter i volunteered at before my taxidriver/dads health declined and with car issues/me not driving and the shelter being 45mins (on a good traffic day) away i havnt been 'doing my bit' recently- which i do feel terrible about 

but when i went with to pick and then bring home little 12 week old Melody, i was chatting away to the kitten-nursery lady about my hopes of fostering pups for them as they always seem to be short of fosterers- after the first once or twice people seem to back out for family/child commitments, or it is simply too hard a task etc.- and that i have bottle fed little pups before etc. (although thankfully not yet had to raise a pup solely on the bottle). well, as pleased as she seemed about me wanting to foster the pups, she said that what they Really need, is more kitten fosterer- as they get newborn kits dropped off far too often, and always have many more than pups.
so basically, i just want to help out to the best of my ability- and do love having little'uns to care for; seeing all that round the clock care pay off when you see that little fur baby going to start their brand new life... :blush:

but realistically, how difficult are kittens to hand raise? is there a high/very high mortality rate in orphaned/abandoned kittens? i know that without the mom things are a lot more difficult- with pups and kittens- but How much so? the 2hrly feeds, pottying, none of that is bothering me, and i am hopefully going to go ahead and get the home check done anyway, i just supose i'm trying to gather info from as many different sources as possible- and am going to talk it over with my vet when i take my girls (dogs- but dont hold that against me  ) for their checks and boosters; i may as well live in that place these days!

so really i suppose the point of this long winded thread is really to ask- what should i be pondering before making the commitment? *pros* and cons please- lets not get too depressing :nono:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've never had to do it for the full time until weaning but have done with small newborns to get them to a point where they are strong enough to suckle from mum. Think the longest I've done is 10 days. One thing I have learned over time is that you *can* get some sleep. Although it may be best practice to feed every 2 hours round the clock, even the tiniest kittens do well enough if not fed for 5 hours or so through the night as long as they've been fed regularly through the day.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I gather it's not easy as they don't have a cough reflex, so if you feed too fast the milk ends up in their lungs. And as you realise, you need to wipe their bottoms after feeding to get them to relieve themselves. If they get too cold then they can't digest the milk, if they get too hot they dehydrate.

Yes, if you start doing this you will lose some, but I suspect you will rapidly get better at it and the loses will reduce. Once they start toddling kitens are wonderful in every way, even if weaning is messy - I have never done anything to wean except make food available. I guess kittens without their mums might need a bit of encouragement as the ones I've raised happily copy mum.

The last litter I fostered came with mum and were born here and she was a fantastic mum, but the changes especially between 5 & 8 weeks as they got more confident and outgoing, and personalities started to emerge, were amazing. Mum was calm and confident enough that I started letting them mix in with my cats during those last few weeks, and those interactions were fascinating as well, and probably good for all concerned. Obviously I never, ever left them mixing when I was out.

I'd encourage you to gave a go. Make sure you get shown how to feed them, what the correct drop rate from the bottle is, and prepare for not a lot of sleep in one go to start with.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

thanks for your replies. 
so far with the pups i have been lucky enough to have only had to bottle feed after they have sucessfully suckled for a while (one had a neck injury, and the others were 1 wk old rotties whos mom got a severe infection and couldnt feed them) so never had an issue with getting them to take the bottle, but are kittens the same as some toy breed dogs that they would do best being tube fed for the first few days? never had to do this yet, but have read about it several times, already been shown by my vet- but if it would be of use i'll deffinately have a few more lessons on it!
id rather have a full 'game plan' before i call the shelter out for the home check- so i dont get myself worked up and blow it! so apologies, but i'm sure i'll have a fair few more Qs in the next few weeks. 
would a water bottle, heat pad or heat lamp work best for them? the only thing i don't have is the lamp, but i have heard a few horror stories about defective heat lamps, so may stick to the bottle and pad? what room temp is ideal for a singleton (which i imagine i'll have more often than not) and would water bottles (fluffy ones that Cant hurt them) be of use to keep in the bed?

it would probably be a little easier on me if i could take pg queens and care for them while they care for the kits, but i dont think with the dogs that would be fair on the cat... but i know they are all great with little ones (and i have the means to keep them 100% separate if left alone- baby gates, enclosed playpens etc) so, good job i dont sleep well anyways!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lol sorry but it can be highly depressing 

I had to fully hand rear a litter of 8 this year, from day 2 mum didnt devlop her teats and had no milk at all, and, well, all I can say is the people that foster aRE AMAZING because I thought that I might die, every 2 hours on the dot, by the time you had fed 8 kittens, they needed feeding again, I had to make them poop/wee before & after each feed, I am VERY lucky that mum still wanted them to suckle/waash them, some people dont have the mum to do that  

I dont remember much apart from I kept bursting into tears (lack of sleep) I ended up in hospital  and discharged myself as the babies were to important to leave, we lost 3, had post mortoms done (I wont say the next part as it may offended/upset people) and it was purely down to hand rearing them  The over whelming guilt and sadness was unbearable.

when we got to 3-4weeks I managed to get a bit more sleep, I started weaning at 3 half weeks to get the weight on them, they were very close to me, but as I had mum they were just your average kittens and it didnt affect them that way, all massive happy kittens now! 

But it isnt for the fainted hearted at all!! Just be prepared for no sleep, being angry/snappy/crying/useless! for about 3-4weeks, wheich can turn into happy/proud/strong emotions all in one!
esp if you dont have a mum, thats even more work, speak to foster mums in your area


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tube feeding really is an art, and in my view healthy term kittens should be OK with a bottle so long as you get the feeding rate correct - I don't mean how much each feed, I mean how fast to give a feed. it's probably more important to know how to take a rectal temperature than tube feed.

If you take a queen it's far easier - she does the feeding, toileting, washing and teaching. But, she needs a room to herself where the dogs can't go sniffing around outside.

A nice deep cardboard box with fleece inside (easy to wash and it will need it!) and a regulated heat pad underneath is fine, so long as they can move off the heat pad if they get too warm.

A woman called Betty Bloomfield wrote an excellent book "Hand rearing of kittens" and Google will find it for you. I believe she was a paediatric intensive care nurse who applied the same principles to hand-rearing kittens and puppies.

Also:
HAND REARING KITTENS

You can't be ready for everything in advance. Talk to the shelter you would be doing this for, ask them their views and procedures, find out how you get food and cat litter, what to do if you need advice and / or a vet, do they have someone who can teach bottle feeding? And BTW the vet nurses usually have more practice at tube feeding than the vet does, just like they do with pilling.

I haven't done kitten rearing without mum cat - a friend had to hand-feed a litter whose mum wanted nothing to do with them to start with following a section, and another had to hand-feed a nearly dead kitten following another section. Fortunately in that case it was an experienced mum who kept the kitten warm and so on, and she started suckling after a couple of days.

I have fostered several pregnant cats through birth to kittens being rehomed, and it was so, so satisfying. It was also very hard work, and meant there were up to 12 weeks when even a night away from home wasn't possible.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Tube feeding really is an art, and in my view healthy term kittens should be OK with a bottle


Can't tell you how much I agree with this. I was about to say how I believe tube feeding is not the right option for healthy kittens. Apart from the technical side, I've never worked out how much you should give them. Even one day old kittens take differing amounts and different amounts at each feed. I've always considered it better to be led by them, they know when they've had enough or if they want more.

The only part of this statement I'd take any issue with (though not much )is the use of bottles. I much prefer to use syringes with the Catac teats fitted. These are long, slim teats which tiny kittens seem to take to very well and fed from a syringe it's easy to keep a record of how much the kitten has taken.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

we thought we would have to tube feed one of mine, but sadly we pts instead ther ewas just no way he would survive  gut wrenching heart breaking 

Ive never had to do it but never ever attempt doing that on your own it is a art to it as said above


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Feel the most crucial thing isn't bottle or syringe, or worrying about how much the kitten has taken, but feeding it so the milk doesn't go down the wrong way, and keeping an eye on it's weight to see it's gaining all the time.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

sorry, typo- my vets (as in practice nurses- vet didnt trust himself to do it) has shown me once when i did work exp there, i'd be too scared of doing it wrong though, and hopefully never will need to until i start training as a nurse (fingers crossed!!)
so i'd likely end up just torturing my neighbour (senior vet-nurse) for a few days if tube feeding was ever needed- and i'm soo glad it shouldn't be. she is Very experienced with newborn kittens- fosters for a shelter and was the overnight ICU nurse in her practice; she had actually taken some late term abortees home and all 3 lived; awesome woman she is. i'll be having plenty more wee chats with her over the next few weeks, just dont want to pester her too much!
i have a few of the plastic bottles, but find them pretty hopeless- the rotts took to them, but that never any of the yorkies who needed supplemented-the one ive had most sucess with is a glass bottle (forget the name though) with the attachable long teats, so i'll probably either keep using it and get a spare, or go with syringes (how i got the teeny pup to feed before getting him the glass bottle)

with the pups i've been in tears, laughing fits, heck- one litter even had me medicated!- i know how much of a rollercoaster it can be, but if only every other one makes it, then thats good enough math to justify the emotional cost. my pups need 12 weeks with the mother/litter, so i know not to let them go when they are still little infants (breaks my heart when i see kits and pups being sold/rehomed too soon).

seems to be just the same setup as i already have then- heat pad in box big enough to have 1/2 warm 1/2 'normal' plenty of vetbed, sauna temps in whole house, goodness- i even have plenty of new kitten toys lying about that the last pups didnt need! i think i'll be calling into the shelter at the weekend to have a wee chat!! cant wait tbh

and OS, thanks for the link; had a wee quick read and it is explained brilliantly- so i'll get the book in a few weeks!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> but feeding it so the milk doesn't go down the wrong way


If it does you've got a dead kitten which is why I like those Catac teats. You really know when a kitten has latched onto one properly and there's no accidental flow of milk until they do with a syringe like there can be with a bottle. A properly latched on kitten can't take milk into the lungs.

Would add, I have most feeding systems in a cupboard and tried them all over time so it isn't blind prejudice.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sounds to me like you are ready to have a go! Yes, it's sad in a way when they go, but it's joyous as well to see these tiny little things develop into lively kittens with their own personalities. 

What is really sad is if a kitten fades. I have that with one litter, thankfully most of them faded before their eyes opened. Mum was very young, the kittens were probably pre-term. 

And what is really, really sad is if a older kitten dies. Unfortunately some birth defects only become apparent when the kitten fails to thrive and gradually slips away. Not had that, thankfully.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Sounds to me like you are ready to have a go! Yes, it's sad in a way when they go, but it's joyous as well to see these tiny little things develop into lively kittens with their own personalities.
> 
> What is really sad is if a kitten fades. I have that with one litter, thankfully most of them faded before their eyes opened. Mum was very young, the kittens were probably pre-term.
> 
> And what is really, really sad is if a older kitten dies. Unfortunately some birth defects only become apparent when the kitten fails to thrive and gradually slips away. Not had that, thankfully.


Sadly I have had a 7 and 11 week old pup pass on me- the sires owner didn't tell me he had produced several open fontal pups in the previous 2 years she had been studding him (i learnt this after the fact) and two puppies in one of my litters passed away after bumping into things- one the dining room chair, the other the side of the sofa. honestly, a little bit of my heart broke off the days I found Zoe (who I'd left the litter for a few mins in their pen beside the dining table) and when my mum who was looking after Ollie when he bumped and passed; 7 1/2 and 11 weeks I'd poured my heart and soul into those pups, only to lose them because of the greed of one person (and my stupidity for believing what she told me without much question). But it made me more determined to do my bit for rescue etc- and at the minute I feel I could help them best from my home- looking after the infants that have no one else; those I help will be such a joy, and those I can't I'll know I did the best I could . I know I will lose some, but I think I could deal with that better now than I did in the past- at least I'll know it Could happen instead of it being totally out of nowhere- not saying thatll make losing an innocent life any better, but I guess the only way to know how I will cope is to deal with it if it happens.
I imagine you will be hearing a lot from me in the coming weeks and months- ill likely need wee pointers and tips here and there that the shelter and vets won't have thought of!

One more wee thing my sister pointed out tonight... If kittens learn litter tray habits from the mom, how hard is it to teach them without an adult cat? Id hate to fail thrm on that aspect as no one wants a 'dirty' cat! My girls will probably take on the kittens as funny looking puppies no issue- like they did with the gerbil, rabbit and rats- (one is the most maternal creature I've ever met, and grooms the gerbil and kept the others litters warm when they took a break) but they are not really used to adult cats, so a nursing mother probably wouldn't be comfortable here  will that me a big issue in teaching them behaviours?
I am reading up on all this as well, but like hearing 1st hand accounts rather than reading from a general textbook all the time.

Sorry- I'm going on a bit aren't I!?


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

I think you are all amazing for fostering as you do. I couldn't do it :nonod: but I can appreciate the skill and sacrifice required x


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Sorry- I'm going on a bit aren't I!?


I don't think you are. Breeders learn on the hoof, often with one kitten which needs a bit of topping up rather than complete hand rearing. Learning by doing is far less daunting than trying to take it all in by reading.



> If kittens learn litter tray habits from the mom, how hard is it to teach them without an adult cat?


I'm not sure I believe kittens do learn this from their mother. It doesn't fit with my observations though I would be interested in other breeders' views.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> I'm not sure I believe kittens do learn this from their mother. It doesn't fit with my observations though I would be interested in other breeders' views.


If every aspect of caring for kittens was as easy as litter tray "training" I would be a happy and, at times, much less stressed out woman  Many times I've had mum's litter tray located out of the kittens' sight, in another room, and yet present them with their own tray at 4 weeks and hey presto. In fact, in the past I have put put down large'ish shallow bowls of weaning biscuit for kittens and they piddle in it... I believe it's just instinct to use something they can dig around in as a loo.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Agree digging is instinct. I suspect simply putting them on the litter tray after feeding them will do the trick, though not until they are 3-4 weeks of age - until then they need mum licking or you with the cotton wool to help them eliminate. And don't use clumping litter as kittens sometimes eat it, presumably part of exploring their world by trying to eat it.

Neither me or my friend also ever found the need to wean them - they would again be exploring their world including mum's food bowls, and once they had paddled in the wet food they would clean it off, that seemed to lead to eating it. I was concerned I hadn't seen one of the last set of kittens eat solids until I put down some raw mince. They all came running and were straight in troughing, suspect she was simply eating solids when i wasn't looking.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I have a little girl I am hand rearing at the moment, almost five weeks old, won't take solid food yet but as of eysterday won't take milk either. She wants gravy from cat food but at lunchtime today she went down with really bad diarrhoea, she has had four lots of it now and it's liquid  Desperately need to stop that before she gets dehydrated, they can die so quickly at this age. I think it is almost certainly the change in diet so now I have her just on lectade and am hoping she will recover. She is still lively and not dehydrated yet but I am worried 

Liz


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

lizward said:


> I have a little girl I am hand rearing at the moment, almost five weeks old, won't take solid food yet but as of eysterday won't take milk either. She wants gravy from cat food but at lunchtime today she went down with really bad diarrhoea, she has had four lots of it now and it's liquid  Desperately need to stop that before she gets dehydrated, they can die so quickly at this age. I think it is almost certainly the change in diet so now I have her just on lectade and am hoping she will recover. She is still lively and not dehydrated yet but I am worried
> 
> Liz


_got everything here crossed for her Liz, hope she pulls through, xxxxx_


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

lizward said:


> I have a little girl I am hand rearing at the moment, almost five weeks old, won't take solid food yet but as of eysterday won't take milk either. She wants gravy from cat food but at lunchtime today she went down with really bad diarrhoea, she has had four lots of it now and it's liquid  Desperately need to stop that before she gets dehydrated, they can die so quickly at this age. I think it is almost certainly the change in diet so now I have her just on lectade and am hoping she will recover. She is still lively and not dehydrated yet but I am worried
> 
> Liz


oh goodness, i hope you can get her perked up again, poor wee mite. 
is it normal for them to still be on milk at 5 weeks or did she need longer before weaning? (i can't believe i can't remember/ havn't read that yet ) my pups would still be on milk at 4 weeks and soft weaned from 4 1/2 to 5 weeks old, do kits follow that same pattern as a rule?
can you add syrup to the milk for extra glucose/electrolytes as with pups?
gosh i have a lot of reading still to do.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Kittens with their mother usually start eating solids at 3-4 weeks and are eating quite a lot at 5 weeks, but they will suckle more or less as long as mum will let them.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> _got everything here crossed for her Liz, hope she pulls through, xxxxx_


She's had another bout of it and she's worse, depressed and clearly dehydrated now. She isn't going to make it :cryin:


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

So sorry Liz


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

gosh, i'm so so sorry.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

lizward said:


> She's had another bout of it and she's worse, depressed and clearly dehydrated now. She isn't going to make it :cryin:


_Oh Liz, how heartbreaking, sending you a big hug, wish there was something i could say or do to help, .  i take my hat off to you breeders, alot of people dont see this side of breeding.they think its all plain sailing, thinking of you Liz.xxxxxx _


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

O it's not plain sailing.

The horrible thing here is that when I got up to the kitten at about 6am she seemed very much better and I really thought she was going to make it. Got up again at about 8am and she has started that crying that only means one thing :cryin:


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

lizward said:


> O it's not plain sailing.
> 
> The horrible thing here is that when I got up to the kitten at about 6am she seemed very much better and I really thought she was going to make it. Got up again at about 8am and she has started that crying that only means one thing :cryin:


_oh Liz, my heart goes out to you, its making me cry just reading about her. One of my mums pups had that awful cry, it sounded abit like a seagul, awful, just before mum lost her, thinking of you Liz xxxxx_


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