# reasons to Spay / Neuters your Pets



## Taylorbaby

I thought that it might be a good idea to have a spay/neuter sticky and people can add their info to it or stories about their neutered pets?

This is what I send to my new kitten owners and we chat about it:

******

Why should I neuter/spay my cat, I dont want to breed...BUT
*
Males:​Behavioral advantages of neutering Decreased Aggression: The (male) androgen hormones, of which testosterone is the most important, are responsible for the development of many behavioural patterns. Testosterone greatly affects aggression in cats. One of the most important behavioural advantages of castration is that as adults, these neutered cats will tend to be less aggressive toward other cats.

Decreased Spraying: Spraying urine is a normal sexual behaviour of un-castrated male tomcats. Anyone who has smelled tomcat urine will quickly agree that spraying is a very unwanted behaviour. Some un-spayed and spayed females, and some castrated males, will spray, but it is much more common in un-neutered males. If the behaviour is allowed to start, the cat has already learned this habit it is harder to stop, therefore Many cats end up in rescue for this reason!! Early spaying/neutering before the kitten turns into a adult sexually matures is vital.

Decreased Roaming: Another behavioural advantage of neutering is that neutered cats are much less likely to react when they sense a female in heat. Male cats can sense females in heat through pheromones. These are airborne chemical attractants that are liberated from the female when she is cycling. They travel through the air for great distances. Male cats neutered at an early age will generally not sense or respond to pheromones, and would certainly be less stressed and tend to stay home if they are outdoor cats.


Medical Advantages There are numerous behavioural and medical benefits to neutering your cat.
Reduced Injuries: The biggest medical advantage to neutering cats is really related to their behaviour. Un-neutered male cats fight to defend their territory. Such fights can be extremely serious, as abscesses often develop from the bite wounds. The veterinarians at the Drs. Foster and Smith Veterinary Medical Facility have seen many tomcats who are missing parts of their ears and tails, or have faces with multiple scars resulting from the fights they had with other toms. Passing on infections, Indoor, neutered cats lead much healthier and longer lives. Decreased Roaming.

Another behavioural advantage of neutering is that neutered cats are much less likely to react when they sense a female in heat. Male cats can sense females in heat through pheromones. These are airborne chemical attractants that are liberated from the female when she is cycling. They travel through the air for great distances. Male cats neutered at an early age will generally not sense or respond to pheromones, and would certainly be less stressed and tend to stay home if they are outdoor cats.

Improved Genetics: We want breeding animals to be the best representatives of their species. The selection is best done by professional breeders. We certainly do not want unwanted traits like hereditary diseases or aggressive personalities passed on.

*Females:*​Having a litter of kittens may seem like a fun thing to do. Some even believe that it helps their female cat, in some way, to develop more completely or become a better pet. Neither is true. Becoming pregnant and having a litter of kittens in no way alters the maturity level of the cat, either physically or mentally. In most cases, people find out that it is hard to find good homes for all of the kittens, even if they are advertised "Free to a Good Home." In addition, not all pregnancies go smoothly. Difficult labour, kitten mortality, and potential health problems in the mother, such as uterine and mammary gland infections, can take all the fun out of the experience. Most of the clients we have worked with end up wishing that they had never allowed their female to have a litter. Professional breeders are prepared and equipped for the entire process and it should generally be left to them.

The female reproductive tract 
The reproductive tract of the female cat begins with the ovaries where the ova (or eggs) are produced. When a female kitten is born, every egg that will be released by her ovaries over her lifetime is already present. The ova are, however, in an immature form and require further development to reach a stage that can be fertilized by sperm cells. When a cat's heat cycle starts, hormones stimulate the maturation of some of the ova or eggs. When the cat is bred, the ova are then released through the surface of the ovary and pass into the oviducts. These are tiny tubes that run between the ovaries and the horns of the uterus. It is within the oviducts that fertilization (the union of the sperm cell and ovum) occurs. The horns are the muscular section of the uterus between the oviducts and the body of the uterus. In an adult cat, the horns of the uterus are about six inches long and the diameter of a normal shoelace. When a cat is in heat, the uterus and the blood vessels to it will enlarge. When pregnant, this small uterus enlarges to hold several kittens. The uterus ends at the cervix of the cat. During pregnancy, most kittens develop within the uterine horns, but one may reside within the body of the uterus.

Birth control pills There are birth control pills which can be used in cats, but they can have serious unwanted side effects such as the development of diabetes mellitus. They cannot be used for long periods of time.

Surgical sterilization Since birth control pills are not a viable option, as a practical permanent form of sterilization, we are left with the surgical procedure called spaying (medically referred to as ovariohysterectomy). An ovariohysterectomy (OHE) is the complete removal of the female reproductive tract. The ovaries, oviducts, uterine horns, and body of the uterus are removed. Not only does this procedure prevent the animal from getting pregnant, but it also eliminates the heat cycles. The surgery removes the source of production of such hormones as estrogen and progesterone. 
These hormones are responsible for stimulating and controlling heat cycles and play a major role during pregnancy. But they also have other effects on the body and some of them are potentially harmful.

Disadvantages of not spaying your cat An OHE eliminates most, if not all, of the female hormone production. In so doing, the real advantages of this procedure are realized. In humans, great efforts are undertaken to maintain or restore hormone production in the body if the ovaries are removed, but the same is not true for cats. These hormones play key roles in reproduction in the cat. However, they are also responsible for many unwanted side effects.

Estrus: Cats are 'spontaneous ovulators.' This means a cat will ovulate, or release the eggs from her ovaries, only if she is mated. If a female cat is in heat (she will be in heat for 3 to 16 days) and is not mated, she will come back into heat every 14 to 21 days until she is mated. Physiological and behavioural patterns press upon her to mate. Being locked in an apartment or house where this is impossible causes great anxiety and frustration (for her, and you).

Behaviour and hygienic problems: During the heat cycle there are numerous behaviour problems that may develop. Females in heat will actively search out male cats and may attempt to escape from the house or yard, putting them in the danger of traffic, fights with other animals, etc. Often there is a sudden influx of male cats around the home and yard.

The howling at 2 a.m. will affect your behaviour as well as your cat's. In addition, un-spayed females may spray urine when they are heat. This can be difficult to stop, and it is highly recommended that such cats are spayed as part of the treatment.

Mammary cancer: Mammary cancer is the third most common cancer in cats. Reproductive hormones are one of the primary causes of mammary cancer in the cat. Cats who have been spayed have a 40-60% lower risk of developing mammary cancer than those who have not been spayed.
Tumors of the reproductive tract: 
Tumors also occur in the uterus and ovaries. An OHE would, of course, eliminate any possibility of this occurring. They are not commonly seen cancers in cats, but they do occur.

Infections of the reproductive tract:Unspayed cats may develop a severe uterine disease called pyometra. With this disorder, bacteria enter the uterus and it becomes filled with pus. The normal 6-inch long, thin horns of the uterus enlarge to 10 inches long and can become the diameter of a human thumb. Undetected, this condition is almost always fatal. In rare cases, when the condition is found early, hormonal and antibiotic therapy may be successful. This type of therapy is limited to valuable breeding animals. Generally, the treatment of pyometra requires a difficult and expensive ovariohysterectomy. The toxicities resulting from the infection can strain the kidneys or heart, and in some cases may be fatal or cause life long problems, even after the infected uterus has been removed.

Behavior and hygienic problems: During the heat cycle there are numerous problems to deal with. There are the behavior problems seen in some females searching or yearning for available males. Owners of females in heat also frequently have to deal with a sudden influx of male cats around the home and yard. The howling at 2 a.m. will affect your behavior as well as your cat's.

Unspayed females may spray urine when they are heat. This can be difficult to stop, and it is highly recommended that such cats are spayed as part of the treatment.

But my cat will be a big fat lazy lump if neutered!

Spaying and neutering does change the metabolism of companion animals, so in most cases, they do not need as much food to maintain their weight as unspayed/unneutered animals. The problem is not with the animal  it is us. 
We just tend to overfeed our pets and neutered/spayed dogs and cats are more apt to put on weight because of that.

As for laziness, again, the amount of exercise and activity of our pets is often dependent on us. If we do not give them opportunities for play and exercise, they can become couch potatoes just like some people. Many spayed/neutered dogs are field dogs, are entered in agility shows, become service dogs or are trained in search and rescue. These dogs are anything but lazy. Cats can get lots of exercise with toys and 'chase' games. Some cats love to walk on a leash with their owners. Try it!

Pet Health Care | Dog and Cat Behavior Information by Veterinarians


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## Taylorbaby

all my pet cats were neutered at 5/6months, never had any spraying or fighting and all are very loving, it never changedthem one bit, nor are they fat or lazy! 

Thought Id update this with some pictures:

a flank spay is half 1CM = 5MM Tiny incision in my kittens that are neutered before they go, and about a half-1 inch scar in a 6month old kitten. stress level is about 1 out of 10, they recover in hours, less drugs used, no effect on mental or body growth, because its purely the mating hormones spraying/fighting/calling that is removed, they are not smaller (infact they are bigger!) and they dont get fat (humans make them fat by giving them crap) or lazy (just keep playing with them!) 

Just a example of what a flank spay looks like, this is a girl we neutered before her new home, we are doing a little piece on early neutering for some breeders, so we are follwoing her progress, shes on day 4 now, but here is her photos:

Now on day 21, no scar!!










Then I was sent this from someone who has araggie & british from me, they were neutered at 6months on the dot, this was after 10days:


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## Miss.PuddyCat

Nice post 

Decker was Spayed at around 2 years this as due to me having to search for a vet that had reasonable. 

Horris was Neutered around 3 to 4 years cause we didnt get him until he was that old and it took awhile for him to be neutered. He still tries to attempt to hump Soda and he can be aggressive but that to his past we believe

Soda wasnt Spayed until she was nearly a year old. My vet said to have her done at five month but I felt she was to tiny so i waited.

Horris did escape once, my dad left the door open and he slipped out. And the other he fell out of the 2nd level window at night.

Saying that I havent had any accidents.


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## koekemakranka

Good post! I have a BIG problem with people who do not spay/neuter their animals. "Reasons" include:


All female cats should experience at least one litter
I want my children to witness the miracle of birth _(there are loads of Youtube vids on exactly this subject)_
As a man, I would not like to have my balls cut off. Poor boy: can't do it!
I can't afford it _(if you can't afford it, how can you afford the rest of it???_)
My cat/dog is so special, there should be more of them
A litter will be fun
I LOVE kittens, a litter will be fun and I have friends who say they will each take one _(yeah...right!)_

I WISH I could take every one of the people to our local SPCA admissions. Rows and rows of cages with unwanted litters waiting for PTS. I had to take a very sick feral kitten there a week ago to try and get treatment and the literally dozens of lovely little faces crying at me to take them home. They will never know a loving home. It breaks my heart. Sorrry, I must stop now, I am crying


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## alisondalziel

Have to say i'm pro neutering too.

The ONLY reason not to, in my opinion is if you are breeding a pedigree to better the breed, to show and to contribute something to the breed.

All pets should be neutered. There just isn't any choice to be made, the reasons are clearly stated above 

Love your pet, neuter.


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## buffie

Excellent thread TB just what we need with so many "accidental "litters around at the moment.Hopefully all new kitten owners can be directed to this and not add to the terrible ,distressing problem in cat rescues.with unplanned litters.:thumbup:


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## Chez87

Great thread. Some people think the personality of their pet will change after neutering. which is completely untrue. I got Loki done at exactly 5 months, as early as I could. I didn't want him to spray (or start trying to hump my 9 year old spayed girl :lol didn't want him roaming or fighting. He's still as soppy as ever!

unfortunately there are a few unneutered toms around where I live who fight with my girl, who is very timid, and will now not go out the back at all. Wish people would just neuter their pets.


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## dougal22

buffie said:


> Excellent thread TB just what we need with so many "accidental "litters around at the moment.Hopefully all new kitten owners can be directed to this and not add to the terrible ,distressing problem in cat rescues.with unplanned litters.:thumbup:


Wishful thinking here buffie, as lots of people seem to appear on the forum once their cat is already pregnant 

Still, we can hope.

And kudos to TB for the starting the thread/getting it stickied :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## buffie

dougal22 said:


> Wishful thinking here buffie, as lots of people seem to appear on the forum once their cat is already pregnant
> 
> Still, we can hope.
> 
> And kudos to TB for the starting the thread/getting it stickied :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Lets just hope that they come looking for advice when they first get their new furbaby.We have the tools in "sticky" form to feed and neuter them now.


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## Taylorbaby

Thanks! I was hoping that people may 'research' _before_ and come across this or places with info about neutering, thinking of doing a health testing thread aswell, got the idea from the dog section, showing what breeds need what tests?

anyone think thats a good idea? not sure where to post it though?


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## lymorelynn

Excellent thread TB :thumbup:


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## Guest

excellent thread, hope people listen!


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## Taylorbaby

thanks me to! :thumbup:


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## Emma32

Great thread TB, hopefully people will read and listen.
With regards to the health tests, it could go in the breeding section? It'd probably be most useful to those interested in breeding.


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## Taylorbaby

Emma32 said:


> Great thread TB, hopefully people will read and listen.
> With regards to the health tests, it could go in the breeding section? It'd probably be most useful to those interested in breeding.


well i thought that if people are looking to buy a kitten, they will know what questions to ask about what health tests need to be done on their kitten that they buy?

e.g. ragdoll - parents hcm tested persian pkd tested etc?


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## Emma32

Taylorbaby said:


> well i thought that if people are looking to buy a kitten, they will know what questions to ask about what health tests need to be done on their kitten that they buy?
> 
> e.g. ragdoll - parents hcm tested persian pkd tested etc?


Ah yes I didn't think of that. Never had to ask any of those questions myself.
That makes it a bit tricker


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## Aurelia

Good thread TB :thumbup: Can I also just add to the thread with a bit more about the rescue problems.

Is your girl cat pregnant or do you intend to mate her?

If your answer is no, please scroll back up to the original post for reasons why neutering is important for your cats well being.

If your answer is yes .... Please read carefully:

You say you have homes lines up for kittens, or that you will keep them all. Are you prepared for giving birth to up to 8 kittens (sometimes more )? Do you have at least 16 people wanting a kitten? Because the likely hood is that at least half of those people will not be able to take one after all.

You may have answers for those questions that you feel are right and justified, but please think about this:

If your cat does get pregnant she could give birth to as many as 8 kittens. If you're reading this and suspect your girl is pregnant ... please book her in at the vet for a spay/abortion. Then contact all of those people who said they would have one of her kittens. Use your noodle and encourage them, even offer to take them to a rescue centre.

If you can do that, they will see all of those lovely cats waiting, desperate for a loving home. If you can get them to adopt a kitten/cat, or even two (two make great company) you will have done something wonderful, instead of irresponsible (by letting your moggies pregnancy continue). That way up to a possible 16 perfectly healthy cats/kittens will be saved somewhere from being put to sleep while your girl brings in yet more to the world, when there is no valid reason to do so.

Please think about how much you love your cat. Can you really let this continue knowing that each cat/kitten sat in rescue is being deprived of the same love, and simply being PTS because there just isn't enough room for them?

Go on  save your girl from intense pain and stress raising a litter (and that's only if things go to plan!). Be a hero to other cats in need of a loving home. It's the only way we will begin to put a stop to the rescue crisis.


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## Taylorbaby

Emma32 said:


> Ah yes I didn't think of that. Never had to ask any of those questions myself.
> That makes it a bit tricker


alot dont, when i say to people hcm, they are blank, but its good to know  lovely pic by the way! 



Aurelia said:


> .


yes feel free! 

also anyone please add if you think it may help!


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## Emma32

Taylorbaby said:


> alot dont, when i say to people hcm, they are blank, but its good to know  lovely pic by the way!


I know of some tests, but I've never asked since Charlie was a rescue.
And thank you for that  Yesterday took the opportunity when he decided he wanted to be a lap-cat for a change 

As for the spay/neutering side of things, I did notice a change in Charlie's temperament when we got him neutered. He'd attack our feet and ankles before he was done. Hasn't done it since


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## Taylorbaby

Emma32 said:


> I know of some tests, but I've never asked since Charlie was a rescue.
> And thank you for that  Yesterday took the opportunity when he decided he wanted to be a lap-cat for a change
> 
> As for the spay/neutering side of things, I did notice a change in Charlie's temperament when we got him neutered. He'd attack our feet and ankles before he was done. Hasn't done it since


rescues dont normally know health history and i dont think they have the funds to test themselve, so do a vet check etc

lol tay does that sometimes! :lol:


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## sophie-paige

i think this is a brilliant thred espesialy for people like me who didnt know the true benifits of spaying until i read this and did a bit of my research aswell.

If you dont mind i would just like to add that those people who use the excuse/reason that it is too expensive are wrong. 

If you in receipt of housing benefit or council tax benifit then you can get free treatment and free spaying from the pdsa. However they do ask for a voluntary donation. You can also recieve reduced cost of spaying if you are in reciept of other benefits or for special circumstances.
Just thort ide say as some people wont know unless they look into it


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## Taylorbaby

Thats true at my vets its only £20-30 to neuter & spay.

alot of places do it for free, If anyone has any info on free or 'cheaper' places please post!!


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## WallsendJan

I would certainly recommend speying and neutering. My lovely girl just gave birth on Monday to 4 beautiful little gingers, just like her. It wasn't planned. To cut a long story short, she was 10 weeks when someone asked me to look after her 'for a while'. She got to 19 months then got caught. I am a complete novice as I had a male cat for years till he died and I still have a male dog. I have been frantic trying to get advice and knowledge. Have also had 'ooh, I'll have one' people. But there'll be no 'free to good homes' for my babies. My vet will recommend people for me and cat's protection are going to help too. I have done what I always condemned other, irresponsible owners for:nono:. She's getting speyed as soon as the kittens are weaned. A lesson hard learned but well heeded.


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## Amethyst

WallsendJan said:


> I would certainly recommend speying and neutering. My lovely girl just gave birth on Monday to 4 beautiful little gingers, just like her. It wasn't planned. To cut a long story short, she was 10 weeks when someone asked me to look after her 'for a while'. She got to 19 months then got caught. I am a complete novice as I had a male cat for years till he died and I still have a male dog. I have been frantic trying to get advice and knowledge. Have also had 'ooh, I'll have one' people. But there'll be no 'free to good homes' for my babies. My vet will recommend people for me and cat's protection are going to help too. I have done what I always condemned other, irresponsible owners for:nono:. She's getting speyed as soon as the kittens are weaned. A lesson hard learned but well heeded.


Out of interest? Why didn't you have her spayed? You had her an awful long time before she go "caught" didn't she come into season and call?


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## Kitty_pig

TB I think this has been mentioned on another thread (I cant find it), but can anyone tell me when is it acceptable to spay a cat? As you know my new kitten is a moggy from an accidental litter (all kittens going to family and a close friend - me) but I want to get her spayed as soon as possible. I have had conflicting advice and don't want to trouble my vet until I actually physically have Luna home (daft I know). I thought the general rule was 6 months at the earliest but have heard of some being spayed at 4 months. What is actually best for the cat? 

I'd be really greatful if anyone can let me know xxx


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## lizward

Some vets will do it at three months and apparently recovery is much quicker. It really depends on the vet.

Liz


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## Kitty_pig

lizward said:


> Some vets will do it at three months and apparently recovery is much quicker. It really depends on the vet.
> 
> Liz


Thank you x


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## WallsendJan

You're right Amethyst, I did have her a long time. It was a case of the real owner keep saying she'd take her at the end of the month. One month lead to another and she was going to 'get it done' but didn't and I, for whatever silly excuse that I can't come up with right now, didn't do it either. I tried not to get too attached but that didn't work. I should have done it long before now and I'm not going to give feeble excuses for not doing it. I didn't recognise the signs of 'heat', as I said, I've got boys so didn't know much about females. I do now thought, thanks to you lot on here. It was careless and irresponsible and I'm thouroughly ashamed of myself


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## WallsendJan

At our local vet, Value Vets, they spey and neuter for just £5 if you're in receipt of housing?council tax benefit. I also have to add that they give out advice freely to anyone who needs it. They really are good and that's where my new lot will be going in future. 

There are quite a few vets who offer the £5 spey/neuter.


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## Taylorbaby

sorry cant give you advice on that am not a vet! most vets do it from 4-6months, nearer the 6 months, some from 12weeks, just call around!  good luck!


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## Guest

Just a bump post for this great thread. Well done TB.


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## Hollie-x

i have 2 male cats, both get on so well even before i got them neutered. 
before i had Milo done he was straying and i didnt see him for a whole 2 days once and as soon as he decided to come home, he was at the vets. poor little man. Lol.
But he hardly ever leaves the house now and he is constantly at my feet no matter where i am, he is a lot more loving and affectionate and although he didnt speak to me for a few hours after returning from the vet, he soon forgot about it


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## Roxyx

Hi all

We are getting our furbaby in 6 weeks time & I'm currently looking at information so I know what to do when she arrives. One thing I'm getting conflicted information on is about getting her spayed, a friend of mine said that the vets would only spay after their first heat and will not do it any earlier. I don't want to ring and ask the vets as we don't have her here, but is that true? She did get her cat spayed at 14 months old and told me not to bother with vaccs with Roxy when she comes as she'll be indoor only and the same vet told her not to vaccinate her cat as she was only indoors. To me that doesn't sound right at all and I will be getting her vaccinated after her first one with the lady shes with at the moment, but just confused on the spaying. 

Thanks if you can help 
Dee
x


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## lymorelynn

Hi. Your cat doesn't need to have a season before being spayed and most vets will do it from around 4 months. If you leave it longer you run the risk of her escaping and becoming pregnant - not a good idea in a very young cat .
If you are going to insure your kitten you won't be covered unless she is up to date with her vaccinations and even though there are schools of thought which say they do not need to be done annually, I feel it is best to have them done.


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## Roxyx

Hey thank you so much for your reply  

I thought that! But when my friend said she needs to have one season I thought that would do more harm than good surely? I'll be making sure Roxy has been fully vaccinated as I am going with to make sure, and spayed from as early as she can don't you worry! But glad to hear its earlier than I thought & she wouldn't need to have one heat. I did think it was wrong advice but best of asking people who know more about it than obviously my friend does. She isnt coming to me until she is 12 weeks after reading this great forum  (only thought to join up tonight)

x


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## Taylorbaby

Roxyx said:


> Hey thank you so much for your reply
> 
> I thought that! But when my friend said she needs to have one season I thought that would do more harm than good surely? I'll be making sure Roxy has been fully vaccinated as I am going with to make sure, and spayed from as early as she can don't you worry! But glad to hear its earlier than I thought & she wouldn't need to have one heat. I did think it was wrong advice but best of asking people who know more about it than obviously my friend does. She isnt coming to me until she is 12 weeks after reading this great forum  (only thought to join up tonight)
> 
> x


she can be neutered from 3months, 'seasons' and first seasons are more common in dogs, cats have calls, and its better to do it before coming into call or being sexually mature, she can go outside either remember. please read the first pages of thid thread about neutering


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## Roxyx

Haha woops! Trust me to mess seasons and calls up  when I go with to take her for her first vet visit (in 2 weeks) I'll ask what age that vet will spay them, but obviously sooner the better. She won't be an outdoor cat (live in a ground floor flat with no "escape" so to speak) but you never know what can happen and apart from getting pregnant can see why its better for her to be spayed  

xx


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## MrRustyRead

all of my cats are neutered but one of the males can still spray, i was told this is possible but im confused by it.


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## Taylorbaby

jimbo_28_02 said:


> all of my cats are neutered but one of the males can still spray, i was told this is possible but im confused by it.


if he does it is normally down to stress and having a multi cat household, being confused as wo what his 'place / terrrortory' is etc


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## MrRustyRead

thank you for the information


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## Debs2460

I took in a stray with her kittens which were born in September. The kittens went to their new homes in December. A couple of weeks before Christmas she was calling for about a week. Yesterday she started again!! It's driving us mad, and it must be so frustrating for her bless her, she's pacing constantly and has hardly slept. How anyone would actually WANT their cats to go through this is beyond me.
I didn't realise she'd come into heat so soon after the first one. It's going to be very tricky to guage when to book her in for spaying. I've read that with increased blood flow to her reproductive organs vets won't do it while they are in heat. I was hoping to have it done this week while we are all off work, but no good now.


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## pippa234

Take a look at my history, if anyone needs a reason to spay/neuter.

I have been subjected to the worst nightmare when helping/rescuing a neglected cat, it has cost me a fortune, emotionally as well as financially.

My heart has been broken, my bank balance is in the red, i lost my job, i almost lost my house, but worst of all, beautiful kittens were born and died due to an irrisponsible owner who quite frankly didn't give a monkeys.

Never ever assume you have a right to put a pet through being pregnant.


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## littleblackcat

my cats mum was a stray she was only still a kitten herself and way too young to have kittens poor thing struggled when she had her kitens an was so tiny and tired after luckily the home shes in now have had her spade my female cat is defo guna b spade as much as id love a litter of kittens im 2 mean to let her have any i want her 2 stay my bby little kitten for eva hehe plus where i live there are so mant unwated cats and a lovely kind lady who feeds and tkes care of them all i cudnt bare adding to that unwanted count 
id worry the homes i got for my cats wudnt last or i wud worry about who they were going to and i dnt think my bf wud want a house fulla cats but he doesnt mind buffy 
buffys stayin a little kitten for eva hehe even when shes old she will stil be my bby kitten


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## Lunaowen

Thankyou I learnt a lot from that info. Taking Luna to vets this weekend for first time to get her checked and have injections will ask then when she can be done. I will be a nervous wreck lol but she will be fine i'm sure. Is it true I need to keep her in till a year old at least?? Was going to judge it on when I think she's ready and on her size etc, was thinking around 7-8 months will ask vet about it but wondered what all you experts know on this. Need her spayed first anyway so a lot will depend on that.
Thankyou for info x x


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## buffie

Lunaowen said:


> Thankyou I learnt a lot from that info. Taking Luna to vets this weekend for first time to get her checked and have injections will ask then when she can be done. I will be a nervous wreck lol but she will be fine i'm sure. *Is it true I need to keep her in till a year old at least?? Was going to judge it on when I think she's ready and on her size etc, was thinking around 7-8 months will ask vet about it but wondered what all you experts know on this*. Need her spayed first anyway so a lot will depend on that.
> Thankyou for info x x


I'm no expert and am also not the best person to advise really as I am an "indoor cat" fan.If you decide that you want to allow Luna outdoor access and catproofing your garden or building a run is not an option then I would urge you not to allow her out until at least 10/12 months old.Kittens are far to busy playing/investigating and having fun to pay any attention to the dangers that lurk in the outside world.Vets are not the best folks to advise on "cat stuff" illness ect yes  other stuff no


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## Taylorbaby

buffie said:


> I'm no expert and am also not the best person to advise really as I am an "indoor cat" fan.If you decide that you want to allow Luna outdoor access and catproofing your garden or building a run is not an option then I would urge you not to allow her out until at least 10/12 months old.Kittens are far to busy playing/investigating and having fun to pay any attention to the dangers that lurk in the outside world.Vets are not the best folks to advise on "cat stuff" illness ect yes  other stuff no


cant really add much more to buffies graet post  but yes 10-12months of age and you need to teach her a re-call so she comes to you when called, and build it up over the weeks, so you dont just open the door, you can always harness train her and build her up that way outside?


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## Taylorbaby

all my pet cats were neutered at 5/6months, never had any spraying or fighting and all are very loving, it never changedthem one bit, nor are they fat or lazy! 

Thought Id update this with some pictures:

a flank spay is half 1CM = 5MM Tiny incision in my kittens that are neutered before they go, and about a half-1 inch scar in a 6month old kitten. stress level is about 1 out of 10, they recover in hours, less drugs used, no effect on mental or body growth, because its purely the mating hormones spraying/fighting/calling that is removed, they are not smaller (infact they are bigger!) and they dont get fat (humans make them fat by giving them crap) or lazy (just keep playing with them!) 

Just a example of what a flank spay looks like, this is a girl we neutered before her new home, we are doing a little piece on early neutering for some breeders, so we are follwoing her progress, shes on day 4 now, but here is her photos:

day 21 now, no scar!!










Then I was sent this from someone who has araggie & british from me, they were neutered at 6months on the dot, this was after 10days:


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## catlover0581

Freddy has a date!! 27th February woohoo!! i can't wait, it'll be a relief to know that he's been neutered, so i can relax that he and Tilly can remain so close 

one question - may the neutering change his temperament to the point he and Tilly may not be such firm friends? or make them closer as the hormones aren't coursing through him?!


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## Taylorbaby

catlover0581 said:


> Freddy has a date!! 27th February woohoo!! i can't wait, it'll be a relief to know that he's been neutered, so i can relax that he and Tilly can remain so close
> 
> one question - may the neutering change his temperament to the point he and Tilly may not be such firm friends? or make them closer as the hormones aren't coursing through him?!


He will be nicer and more calm still the same cat, read the first thing I posted has all about that on there


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## catlover0581

Taylorbaby said:


> He will be nicer and more calm still the same cat, read the first thing I posted has all about that on there


thanks TB - i'll go and have a hunt for it  x


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## MCWillow

It definitely made Rowan more affectionate - he was a bit of a snobby cat before - Willow has now taken that title :lol:


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## catlover0581

MCWillow said:


> It definitely made Rowan more affectionate - he was a bit of a snobby cat before - Willow has now taken that title :lol:


you mean Freddy could get even soppier?!?!?! lol oh my days, better prepare myself for this heehee x


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## Taylorbaby

catlover0581 said:


> you mean Freddy could get even soppier?!?!?! lol oh my days, better prepare myself for this heehee x


how did it go


----------



## caela

Sorry but this is one topic that really gets me! I can fully understand that people in the States have a bigger problem with re-homing cats than we seem to in the UK. I understand no-one wants kittens to suffer also.

But...

Spaying and neutering is not an answer in itself, just part of the answer. If someone decides they will look after their cat's litter of kittens and re-home them accordingly to good homes, which they have checked, then I don't see much harm done. It's people who just dump them at shelters that should have had them spayed first! One other thing is that PET SHOPS SHOULD BE BANNED for the sale of live animals- unless they are from already existing litters which would otherwise be in shelters. Basically, I am aware that some pet shops take on litters from domestic houses where the owner does not want them, that's fine. But other's can buy them in from farms and that is disgusting altogether. So, maybe I should just say farms should be closed. In fact, maybe I'm wrong altogether and pets shops should be promoted to sell kittens from shelters? Any way, there also needs to be so much more that goes into owning and buying a kitten. We picked up our last cat at a market and I was simply shocked that the guy did not want to know anything about me. I could have been anyone at all. My cat had 2 litters (first one was a surprise then we were going to get her spayed- have to wait one week after lactation- but the male cat got in before us and hence, second litter, yikes), but I did EVERYTHING in my power to ensure the new owners were reputable. I would have them visit the kittens at a few weeks old, where we would meet initially. Providing they liked the kittens and usually, had chosen one out, we would keep in touch and then, around 12 weeks of age, I would arrange a house-visit and drop the kittens off. We would then continue to keep in touch and I still see pics of the babies now and they are fully grown in happy homes. But, it took A LOT of work to do this, with what turned out to be 11 kittens...

So, it's not for people to just assume there is one part of the problem. To an extent, it's very necessary to have some unspayed/ castrated cats to continue the population, but again, there would only need to be a few. It's very difficult to control- you certainly need enough variety in the gene pool. I guess as humans we desperately want to control sex so we can cater for entire populations of things, but this is never possible. It's a sad fact that many are born and die young, or never find homes or live a terrible life and this happens with all species. Lets look at our own for a start! There are so many children in foster care, but no massive incentive for people to stop breeding and adopt them! Although I'm sure care workers feel it's a massive injustice, seeing it every day. Just as someone working in a shelter might be equally moved.

The thing is, people need to be educated better about the facts. Now, as someone who is a bit of a hippy (as you might tell), I want my pets to see the vet as little as possible. I was strongly opposed to castrating/ spaying cats to an extreme level. The cats I'd had in the past (all males) had only ever been castrated for medical reasons (one had FIV and one had an undescended testicle). I regretted it every time and felt terrible about it. Now, having been taught a beautiful yet very real lesson through raising 11 kittens who duly ruined my bank account and home, I fully understand why you'd want to get a female cat spayed. Not only that, but I learnt that for them to go into heat without achieving a pregnancy was a very dangerous thing and they could later go on to develop cancers.

So, I have come to a bit more of a compromise on the situation and less of a harsh approach on the matter. When I re-homed the kittens, I did so with as much information I could pass on and made it quite clear to the new owners that these were now their pets for them to care for how they saw fit. I explained that whilst I didn't always agree with castration, it was up to them to research and discuss with their vet. Many of them went ahead and had the kittens fixed and I completely understand their decision.

The thing is, for me and where I am on the matter now is that I won't castrate my male cat as I see absolutely no need. For a male cat, I think castration increases their chances of prostrate cancer and also, must increase the likelihood of UTI. Neutering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It is simply important to realise that whilst people may argue over it, any operation is something to think of very carefully and take very seriously. You must be available to provide after care and do you research properly, including finding a good vet who has done the procedure many times before. My female cat is naturally quite small and she had quite a severe reaction to the anaesthetic, I honestly was very scared for her. I'm sure this is not the case for all cats, my last male cat was absolutely fine, no problems. But she took a long while to recover and needed a lot of care. It is ALWAYS something to think about and you must consider breed-specific complications.

Another thing I can't make any clearer is that no-one should give in to pressure and the spay and neuter bully brigade. Make an informed decision yourself, but don't back down to bullying and pressure for people. Always be responsible on the other hand and ensure if you don't get your pets spayed that you're prepared to look after and re-home a litter without dumping them at a local shelter. The worse thing I had ever heard of is when I called my vet about my cat being pregnant and they offered, before giving any more advice or finding out about the situation, an abortion (or spay while pregnant). I was disgusted. They said it was sometimes a sad necessity and something people need to think about. Well, this was entirely untrue and it should never be done in my mind it's a breech of your trust with an animal and since kittens develop so quickly, after literally a few weeks you could be aborting kittens who might survive by themselves. Horrific and as I found thoroughly unnecessary (having gone ahead as planned with my cat's pregnancy) I later found that many of the kittens already had homes (on a waiting list) before they were even born. Just make sure you put up adverts early- they grow up fast!

Also another concern is the age at which cats or sometimes kittens are fixed. I seriously cannot agree with fixing them at such a young age as 6 weeks or anything under 6 months really. They are babies! There is a lot of debate over whether or not an animal such reach puberty before they are fixed and whilst I think to an extent it's better if they don't, as then their behaviour won't change, you are also robbing them of the chance to grow up and be an adult. They will be stuck as kittens, mentally and physically (apart from in size of course!). Also, spaying DOES make cats fat, so be very careful with their diet!

OK lastly and I promise this is my final point lol, part of the pressure to fix your pets should NOT be the promise of behavioural changes. Not only are these not guaranteed, but they should not be the reason to put your pet through an otherwise unnecessary operation! If you don't want a cat doing typical cat things like possible spraying your furniture, don't get one! Otherwise, these things might be seen as added benefits to fixing your pets, but not the actual reason to do it! Also, it is mostly legend that all male cats spray everywhere and are aggressive horrible claw-bearing creatures who can't keep it in their pants- I've never had a problem with male cats spraying in the house, they only do it when another cat enters or they feel threatened by change. Otherwise, it's really not a big deal. I have an entire male cat now which is a complete wimp, he never sprays (ever) and he always wants cuddles. He doesn't stray (he stays near the house and rarely goes as far out as the spayed female), he NEVER bites or scratches, he's basically lovely. He doesn't hump anything. He's a complete baby. So, as I said again, don't be bullied and don't give in to propaganda- judge by your own pet and for your own reasons. It may well be that you have a cat with such severe behavioural problems that it would be fairer on everyone to have them spayed/ castrated, in which case, that's your decision. But you judge!


----------



## catlove844

caela said:


> Sorry but this is one topic that really gets me! I can fully understand that people in the States have a bigger problem with re-homing cats than we seem to in the UK. I understand no-one wants kittens to suffer also.
> 
> !


I think ou are talking about dogs and not cats, most of what you said is aimed at dogs, you MUST neuter your pets, you obviously have no experience in un-neutered animals or rescue. Do some more research before spouting random large posts.

It is CRUEL to keep a un-neutered male entire, they will be full of hormones, want to fight display aggression, oh and when he starts to spray everywhere and your house smells like crap (some crap everywhere as well) to call females, then he will be in rescue and we will be the ones picking up the pieces. CATS ARE NOT DOGS!!!!


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## Aurelie

caela said:


> I won't castrate my male cat as I see absolutely no need


Just out of interest, Is your unneutered male allowed out?


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## Lunaowen

Luna is at the vets for her spay, I was a nervous wreck this morning and have had to keep occupied feels so strange with her toys in the house and no Luna coming for cuddles or playing. She was not happy at not being fed this morning and was very vocal all the way to the vets, but after a cuddle and being fussed she was a happy bunny when I left her. I will keep all updated on how she gets on, I just want to know the Op has gone well and she is fine. x x x


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## RabbitMonster

Lunaowen said:


> Luna is at the vets for her spay, I was a nervous wreck this morning and have had to keep occupied feels so strange with her toys in the house and no Luna coming for cuddles or playing. She was not happy at not being fed this morning and was very vocal all the way to the vets, but after a cuddle and being fussed she was a happy bunny when I left her. I will keep all updated on how she gets on, I just want to know the Op has gone well and she is fine. x x x


Molly went in the morning as well (about time, I say!). I agree, it does feel weird not having her in the house, it'll be even weirder going home and her not being there for a cuddle.

Lucky you, Luna was happy with you when you left, Molly was furious with me and gave me the "You're a mean mommy!" look


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## Lunaowen

Luna's Op went well, she was very alert when I picked her up, she came home and ate some chicken and she is now feeling bit sorry for herself. Glad it all went well.


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## KittyMadnessAtMay

I'll be getting my two kittens spayed when they get to 5/6 months, I think spaying is always the best option, obviously its up to the pets owners but I know a lot of cats who are not spayed and they tend to spray all over the house which really is disgusting!


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## KittyMadnessAtMay

catlove844 said:


> I think ou are talking about dogs and not cats, most of what you said is aimed at dogs, you MUST neuter your pets, you obviously have no experience in un-neutered animals or rescue. Do some more research before spouting random large posts.
> 
> It is CRUEL to keep a un-neutered male entire, they will be full of hormones, want to fight display aggression, oh and when he starts to spray everywhere and your house smells like crap (some crap everywhere as well) to call females, then he will be in rescue and we will be the ones picking up the pieces. CATS ARE NOT DOGS!!!!


I agree with you a hundred percent, my mother has two male cats and no matter how much I have told her to spay them she hasnt and because of them spraying her house is smelling terrible! YOu need to get cats spayed, my mum has finally agreed to getting them spayed after 2 years!


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## Rebelneck

Thank you for all this information.

Henry (10 months) has been neutered already before we rehomed him. One of his testicles hadn't descended properly so apparently was a bigger op than normal. When we got him it was only a couple of weeks since the op and he had a slight infection but thanks to our fab vets he is just fine now :thumbsup:

Loki however will be neutered as soon as he is old enough. As he was found wandering the streets at approx 3 weeks old I'm not definitely sure on his age. We were told he was 9 weeks when we rehomed him, so that would make him about 12 weeks now?? 

I guess the question is, what age is best?


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## Emma1978

Neutering is a MUST. My first ever cat Holly got pregnant at 5 months and that was a surprise and she had 6 kittens! We kept 1 and friends and family have the rest. BUT then a few months later the one we kept got pregnant and then she had 6 also so as before we kept 1 and the rest to friends and family. 

We really didnt understand in the beginning that cat were so fertial at such a young age! It is our fault for not doing our research.

Now all our cats are done but we have learnt the hard way. Neutering is a MUST dealing with loads of little kittens may be fun but it is hard work and really now fair on them.


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## Kittykatur

Great thread.
Always had males and always neutered at approx 5-6 months. Both loving and although out door cats (day time only) they have never wondered and always come home. There was never any question about getting the boys done, due to the dangers and irresponsibility of my boys making loads of unwanted babies.

Got my first female last year, wasn't sure about getting her 'done' as being an indoor cat with 2 neuter males I wasn't really rushed on the idea. She started to 'call' last week and she was tormented by the fact she couldn't get caught. She stopped eating and was never comfy (she usually loves to cuddle and sleep on an evening) I was so scared she would get out because of her need to mate when in this state. Obviously I didn't want a pregnancy but I also didn't want her in danger being outside. My mind was made up.
Today she has been to the vets and is now quietly recovering from her op. 
I know I have done the right thing for my babies and for me


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## Polski

I currently have a cat locked in my back room, I'm not sure if hes owned as he spends half the day in my garden. I have another cat that hangs around, once again not sure if hes owned, both are full toms. Today both have turned up having been fighting, probably with each other. The one locked in my back room cannot be let out due to limping so badly that hes an easy target for local yobs, dogs and traffic on the fairly busy road out front (that I KNOW he crosses) I'm hoping to get him to the vet tomorrow but...

1, I don't have any money

2, He is very, very unfriendly, every time I enter the room i'm having to dance to avoid an ankle attack (hes always been this way)...I know most vets will not touch him so i'm going to have to find a vet that will agree to treat a semi feral AND at a reduced rate.


Maybe those that think spay/neuter advocates are bullies should spend some time cleaning up the mess that results from not spaying/neutering...... 

Scrape a few bodies off the road (its generally entire cats that wander further than their owners garden)

Drain a few abscesses

Maybe euthanise a few kittens that just cant seem to get a home

Come and clean the tom cat pee smell from my sofa from hopalong feral cat.




Spay and neuter your pets folks...it saves lives...your pets and some at the shelters!


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## Mildred's Mum

caela said:


> Sorry but this is one topic that really gets me! I can fully understand that people in the States have a bigger problem with re-homing cats than we seem to in the UK. I understand no-one wants kittens to suffer also.
> 
> But...
> 
> Spaying and neutering is not an answer in itself, just part of the answer. If someone decides they will look after their cat's litter of kittens and re-home them accordingly to good homes, which they have checked, then I don't see much harm done. It's people who just dump them at shelters that should have had them spayed first! One other thing is that PET SHOPS SHOULD BE BANNED for the sale of live animals- unless they are from already existing litters which would otherwise be in shelters. Basically, I am aware that some pet shops take on litters from domestic houses where the owner does not want them, that's fine. But other's can buy them in from farms and that is disgusting altogether. So, maybe I should just say farms should be closed. In fact, maybe I'm wrong altogether and pets shops should be promoted to sell kittens from shelters? Any way, there also needs to be so much more that goes into owning and buying a kitten. We picked up our last cat at a market and I was simply shocked that the guy did not want to know anything about me. I could have been anyone at all. My cat had 2 litters (first one was a surprise then we were going to get her spayed- have to wait one week after lactation- but the male cat got in before us and hence, second litter, yikes), but I did EVERYTHING in my power to ensure the new owners were reputable. I would have them visit the kittens at a few weeks old, where we would meet initially. Providing they liked the kittens and usually, had chosen one out, we would keep in touch and then, around 12 weeks of age, I would arrange a house-visit and drop the kittens off. We would then continue to keep in touch and I still see pics of the babies now and they are fully grown in happy homes. But, it took A LOT of work to do this, with what turned out to be 11 kittens...
> 
> So, it's not for people to just assume there is one part of the problem. To an extent, it's very necessary to have some unspayed/ castrated cats to continue the population, but again, there would only need to be a few. It's very difficult to control- you certainly need enough variety in the gene pool. I guess as humans we desperately want to control sex so we can cater for entire populations of things, but this is never possible. It's a sad fact that many are born and die young, or never find homes or live a terrible life and this happens with all species. Lets look at our own for a start! There are so many children in foster care, but no massive incentive for people to stop breeding and adopt them! Although I'm sure care workers feel it's a massive injustice, seeing it every day. Just as someone working in a shelter might be equally moved.
> 
> The thing is, people need to be educated better about the facts. Now, as someone who is a bit of a hippy (as you might tell), I want my pets to see the vet as little as possible. I was strongly opposed to castrating/ spaying cats to an extreme level. The cats I'd had in the past (all males) had only ever been castrated for medical reasons (one had FIV and one had an undescended testicle). I regretted it every time and felt terrible about it. Now, having been taught a beautiful yet very real lesson through raising 11 kittens who duly ruined my bank account and home, I fully understand why you'd want to get a female cat spayed. Not only that, but I learnt that for them to go into heat without achieving a pregnancy was a very dangerous thing and they could later go on to develop cancers.
> 
> So, I have come to a bit more of a compromise on the situation and less of a harsh approach on the matter. When I re-homed the kittens, I did so with as much information I could pass on and made it quite clear to the new owners that these were now their pets for them to care for how they saw fit. I explained that whilst I didn't always agree with castration, it was up to them to research and discuss with their vet. Many of them went ahead and had the kittens fixed and I completely understand their decision.
> 
> The thing is, for me and where I am on the matter now is that I won't castrate my male cat as I see absolutely no need. For a male cat, I think castration increases their chances of prostrate cancer and also, must increase the likelihood of UTI. Neutering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It is simply important to realise that whilst people may argue over it, any operation is something to think of very carefully and take very seriously. You must be available to provide after care and do you research properly, including finding a good vet who has done the procedure many times before. My female cat is naturally quite small and she had quite a severe reaction to the anaesthetic, I honestly was very scared for her. I'm sure this is not the case for all cats, my last male cat was absolutely fine, no problems. But she took a long while to recover and needed a lot of care. It is ALWAYS something to think about and you must consider breed-specific complications.
> 
> Another thing I can't make any clearer is that no-one should give in to pressure and the spay and neuter bully brigade. Make an informed decision yourself, but don't back down to bullying and pressure for people. Always be responsible on the other hand and ensure if you don't get your pets spayed that you're prepared to look after and re-home a litter without dumping them at a local shelter. The worse thing I had ever heard of is when I called my vet about my cat being pregnant and they offered, before giving any more advice or finding out about the situation, an abortion (or spay while pregnant). I was disgusted. They said it was sometimes a sad necessity and something people need to think about. Well, this was entirely untrue and it should never be done in my mind it's a breech of your trust with an animal and since kittens develop so quickly, after literally a few weeks you could be aborting kittens who might survive by themselves. Horrific and as I found thoroughly unnecessary (having gone ahead as planned with my cat's pregnancy) I later found that many of the kittens already had homes (on a waiting list) before they were even born. Just make sure you put up adverts early- they grow up fast!
> 
> Also another concern is the age at which cats or sometimes kittens are fixed. I seriously cannot agree with fixing them at such a young age as 6 weeks or anything under 6 months really. They are babies! There is a lot of debate over whether or not an animal such reach puberty before they are fixed and whilst I think to an extent it's better if they don't, as then their behaviour won't change, you are also robbing them of the chance to grow up and be an adult. They will be stuck as kittens, mentally and physically (apart from in size of course!). Also, spaying DOES make cats fat, so be very careful with their diet!
> 
> OK lastly and I promise this is my final point lol, part of the pressure to fix your pets should NOT be the promise of behavioural changes. Not only are these not guaranteed, but they should not be the reason to put your pet through an otherwise unnecessary operation! If you don't want a cat doing typical cat things like possible spraying your furniture, don't get one! Otherwise, these things might be seen as added benefits to fixing your pets, but not the actual reason to do it! Also, it is mostly legend that all male cats spray everywhere and are aggressive horrible claw-bearing creatures who can't keep it in their pants- I've never had a problem with male cats spraying in the house, they only do it when another cat enters or they feel threatened by change. Otherwise, it's really not a big deal. I have an entire male cat now which is a complete wimp, he never sprays (ever) and he always wants cuddles. He doesn't stray (he stays near the house and rarely goes as far out as the spayed female), he NEVER bites or scratches, he's basically lovely. He doesn't hump anything. He's a complete baby. So, as I said again, don't be bullied and don't give in to propaganda- judge by your own pet and for your own reasons. It may well be that you have a cat with such severe behavioural problems that it would be fairer on everyone to have them spayed/ castrated, in which case, that's your decision. But you judge!


I know this was written ages ago but its the biggest pile of rubbish I ever read. Just because you only have male cats doesn't mean you don't need to bother neutering them- the problem only gets better if everyone neuters their pets, not just those with females!

Neutering DOES NOT automatically make cats fat, overfeeding does, spraying in the house is not ok, leaving males entire is unpleasant for them and totally unnecessary and 6 months in a cat is plenty old enough to be neutered. There are far too many cats and not enough homes. The only way we can make this better is responsible early neutering of every possible (none breeding) cat.


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## oethanowen

good thread, thanks:Kiss


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## lillytheunicorn

Just to add to the reasons to spay, I currently have two foster kittens with me that were collected by the CPL. The owners had two cats originally a male and a female, 18 months later there were those two plus two daughters who each had litters of 4 kittens (5 and 7 weeks old) and a single kitten aged 12 weeks. So 13 cats from two in 18 months.


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## KittenEevee

I got my kitten spayed at 7 months old. The scar healed, we had no issues. She is now 10 months and we have had no behavioural issues with her, she is still so full of energy and loves to play. I've not noticed a difference in her personality. She is still so loving and full of energy.


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## Paul Collins

The answer to this is simple. Would any of you neuter your children without their consent? A cat cannot speak, so how do you know it appreciates mutilation?


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## LinznMilly

Paul Collins said:


> The answer to this is simple. Would any of you neuter your children without their consent? A cat cannot speak, so how do you know it appreciates mutilation?


Children are taught to speak the same language as us, and therefore we can educate them as to (amongst others) reproduction. Your post is quite hilarious in a way, because it comes on the exact same day as the day my nephew received his first lesson on the subject. :Hilarious. Once they are of an age to decide whether or not they want children themselves, they have what is called "mental capacity" - the knowledge and the cognition to make the decision for themselves.

Animals don't speak our language, so we can't teach them in the same way as we can with children, therefore we have to make the decisions for them, based on their best interests - and having pups/kittens isn't in their best interests - certainly not when dogs and cats are routinely PTS every day because of the lack of available homes.


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## Guest

Paul Collins said:


> The answer to this is simple. Would any of you neuter your children without their consent? A cat cannot speak, so how do you know it appreciates mutilation?


You Sir, are a knob.


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## OrientalSlave

Paul Collins said:


> The answer to this is simple. Would any of you neuter your children without their consent? A cat cannot speak, so how do you know it appreciates mutilation?


So is the answer to this: Does a cat (or dog) have the mental capacity to choose weather or not to reproduce, or to understands the risks that involves? Where our children don't, we take the decision for them.


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## Paul Collins

LinznMilly said:


> Children are taught to speak the same language as us, and therefore we can educate them as to (amongst others) reproduction. Your post is quite hilarious in a way, because it comes on the exact same day as the day my nephew received his first lesson on the subject. :Hilarious. Once they are of an age to decide whether or not they want children themselves, they have what is called "mental capacity" - the knowledge and the cognition to make the decision for themselves.
> 
> Animals don't speak our language, so we can't teach them in the same way as we can with children, therefore we have to make the decisions for them, based on their best interests - and having pups/kittens isn't in their best interests - certainly not when dogs and cats are routinely PTS every day because of the lack of available homes.


Since we can't teach cats about the so called hazards of the completely natural process of reproduction that animals have been doing for millions of years, we have to let them make their own choice. Nobody's suggesting you force your cat to breed. I find your post extremely insulting towards cats - you clearly think of humans as some sort of superior being that must have ultimate control over anyone it cannot "educate" in it's own way. As for actually removing one of its body parts, that's thoroughly disgusting. If you couldn't persuade your child to use a condom, would you seriously chop his testicles off? Treat cats like you would treat a fellow human being.


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## buffie

Paul Collins said:


> *Since we can't teach cats about the so called hazards of the completely natural process of reproduction that animals have been doing for millions of ye*ars, we have to let them make their own choice. Nobody's suggesting you force your cat to breed. I find your post extremely insulting towards cats - you clearly think of humans as some sort of superior being that must have ultimate control over anyone it cannot "educate" in it's own way.


Natural it may be ,essential it most definitely is not ,all it does is add to the misery of the unwanted/homeless and often mistreated animals left in shelters by those who see them as "disposable items".
Far better IMO to prevent the numbers born into this often cruel world .
If you cant see that then I feel sad that you are blind to the problem your attitude causes.


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## KittenEevee

I've read some really heart breaking posts on here, about cats struggling to have kittens, kittens being stillborn, cats getting infections, rejecting their kittens, not nursing their kittens. Heartbreaking posts and I would not want my cat to go through that, I love my cat too much so I got her neutered, it really hasn't affected her at all. She's two and is healthy and happy, still got as much energy as she had when she was a kitten and same personality. I don't see what the problem is. Also read it in the local news almost every day kittens are dumped by the side of the road, recently a kitten was found in a pillowcase in the bin, if more people got their cats neutered then there would be alot less unwanted kittens then maybe some of the horrible abuse may not happen. Im just saying.


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## QOTN

Paul Collins said:


> Since we can't teach cats about the so called hazards of the completely natural process of reproduction that animals have been doing for millions of years, we have to let them make their own choice. Nobody's suggesting you force your cat to breed. I find your post extremely insulting towards cats - you clearly think of humans as some sort of superior being that must have ultimate control over anyone it cannot "educate" in it's own way. As for actually removing one of its body parts, that's thoroughly disgusting. If you couldn't persuade your child to use a condom, would you seriously chop his testicles off? Treat cats like you would treat a fellow human being.


Entire cats do not live as long as neutered ones. Entire females are far more likely to have mammary cancer. Is it disgusting to want to prevent unnecessary suffering?

By the way, do you live in a hole? Possibly somewhere near a bridge?


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## OrientalSlave

Paul Collins said:


> Since we can't teach cats about the so called hazards of the completely natural process of reproduction that animals have been doing for millions of years, we have to let them make their own choice. Nobody's suggesting you force your cat to breed.
> <snip>.


Since cats can't connect having sex with having kittens they cannot make an informed choice.


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## NaomiM

Presumably the poster would prefer to go back to the old days when cat ownership involved regularly drowning litters of unwanted kittens...


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## chillminx

Paul Collins said:


> Since we can't teach cats about the so called hazards of the completely natural process of reproduction that animals have been doing for millions of years, we have to let them make their own choice. Nobody's suggesting you force your cat to breed. I find your post extremely insulting towards cats - you clearly think of humans as some sort of superior being that must have ultimate control over anyone it cannot "educate" in it's own way. As for actually removing one of its body parts, that's thoroughly disgusting. If you couldn't persuade your child to use a condom, would you seriously chop his testicles off? Treat cats like you would treat a fellow human being.


I am afraid you are anthropomorphising, when you say "treat cats like you would treat a fellow human being". Cats are NOT human beings, they are a different species and it is
respectful to cats for us to recognise this. It is not respectful to treat them as quasi-human beings.

Procreation for cats (as it is for most animals) is a simple biological urge, there is no thought or discussion involved, as there is when human beings decide to procreate. .

Keeping un-neutered cats as domestic free roaming pets does not work. It is not fair on the cats. The poor females are constantly pregnant and lose body condition. Far too many unwanted kittens are born, too many to find homes for, too many for Rescues to take in. The amount of suffering is huge. Ask any Rescue.

If you can tolerate the spraying and constant crying indoors I advise you to keep either male cats or female cats (but not both sexes,) and never allow them out . Then they won't be reproducing constantly adding massively to the huge population of unwanted / feral kittens, many of whom will live short, miserable, brutish lives. If you did that, then I would see you were at least trying to act responsibly towards cats. Though I would still disapprove of the anthropomorphising with regard to neutering.


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## Summercat

@Paul Collins 
I periodically visit a shelter, one of many all over the world, filled with cats and kittens that do not have homes. They were removed from the street or dropped off outside the shelter gates. 
Maybe you can visit a shelter from time to time and see the cats and kittens without homes and possibly your view on spaying and neutering would change.


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## OrientalSlave

Summercat said:


> <snip>
> possibly your view on spaying and neutering would change.




I doubt it. He is anthropomorphising, and hates the idea of castration. Kittens don't care. Some dog owners go to the lengths of having Neuticles put in place of the dog's b*ll*cks!!!!


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## Guest

chillminx said:


> If you can tolerate the spraying and constant crying indoors I advise you to keep either male cats or female cats (but not both sexes,) and never allow them out .


I'm sure Chillminx is not suggesting for one moment that this individual should actually keep any cats, as he / it is clearly not educated enough to be trusted to look after live animals. I hope for everybody's sake that he has not personally bred!


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## chillminx

Right on @GPTC!


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## moggie14

Joining a cat forum just to post on this thread? Get a life mate, I'm not taking the bait! :Smuggrin


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## Guest

moggie14 said:


> Joining a cat forum just to post on this thread? Get a life mate, I'm not taking the bait! :Smuggrin


Well said.

*"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."*

― George Carlin


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## chillminx

moggie14 said:


> Joining a cat forum just to post on this thread? Get a life mate, I'm not taking the bait! :Smuggrin


It's strange how this member's irrational tirade contains similar vocabulary, phraseology and use of grammar as a thread on the same topic posted by another person of the male gender recently - (a member who is no longer with us) Perhaps this chap is his brother, LOL :


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## QOTN

chillminx said:


> It's strange how this member's irrational tirade contains similar vocabulary, phraseology and use of grammar as a thread on the same topic posted by another person of the male gender recently - (a member who is no longer with us) Perhaps this chap is his brother, LOL :


There is probably lots of room under that particular bridge!


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## 5r6ubertbe6y

Miss Milo was spayed in February at 26 weeks. She recovered remarkably quickly. A spay is a full hysterectomy and a human female would take weeks to recover. Everything went well, she healed nicely apart from a piece of surgical stitch that started poking out but the vet nurse snipped it off. 
I got her microchipped at the same time.


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## Tashanasha

I think I found a good vet here that I trust (and she speaks English which is such a relief) so I'm thinking when would be the best time to take Marx to have him neutered? He is now 4 months, so as soon as possible or wait until he is 6 months? I guess it's the "as soon as possible" option, but I have read that it can affect their growth if done to early so I just want to make sure.


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## chillminx

Neutering at 4 months does not affect their growth more than neutering at 6 months does, i.e. the effect on their growth is the same at 4 mths or 6 mths. 

The long bones (which affect the cat's growth) do not close until the cat is 18 mths old, so you would have to leave him un-neutered until 18 mths for his growth not to be affected. Being neutered before he is 18 mths old means he will have longer limbs and be longer in the body than an un-neutered cat, i.e. he will be a bigger cat.

I'd have him neutered soon after 4 mths, before there's a chance for any unwelcome behaviour such as spraying to develop.


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## OrientalSlave

I also would neuter ASAP. All the pedigree kittens I've bred (apart from the girls I've kept!) have been neutered at 13-14 weeks and have grown into beautiful cats. Also especially with boys they bounce back far better than older cats.


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## Tashanasha

Thought that might be the case.  I'll try to make an appointment for him in the next week or two then.

About the recovery, how long does that usually take? Should I take additional days off from work to be with him?


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## OrientalSlave

Tashanasha said:


> Thought that might be the case.  I'll try to make an appointment for him in the next week or two then.
> 
> About the recovery, how long does that usually take? Should I take additional days off from work to be with him?


Mine have been back to normal by the evening.


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## Tashanasha

Oh, that sounds good! 

Thank you both for the information


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## SuboJvR

Tashanasha said:


> Thought that might be the case.  I'll try to make an appointment for him in the next week or two then.
> 
> About the recovery, how long does that usually take? Should I take additional days off from work to be with him?


For your own peace of mind I would probably advise it. Joey was absolutely *fine* after he was neutered at four months but if I weren't keeping an eye on him, _I _would've been a wreck.

Recovery was non-existant for him. He was eating immediately (just be careful to do a little bit at a time initially as the anaesthesia can make them sick). We had some issues where the vet wanted him to keep his cone/collar on and he point blank refused, but after a whole big episode related to that, I took it off and he was essentially normal. He was a little more manic the afternoon/evening of the op after coming around from the anaesthesia, suddenly playing with toys he'd barely touched in weeks....

The only thing is you have to be careful he doesn't lick at the wound/incision site itself. Joey had a really good wash "down there" after I took off his cone but he never actually licked the incision, he just wanted to get the vet smell off him I think! However I was really glad I had the next two full days off work as well as I was then able to keep monitoring him and his incision.


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