# The I'm Alright 'Union' Jack.



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

What the hell is happening in Britain? :confused1:

Increasing unemployment, homelessness, reduced benefits, rising benefit sanctions, spiralling utility costs, rents, and food bills. 

It's the 7th richest country in the world yet people, including children are going hungry on an ever increasing daily basis. 
It makes me wonder if the ruthless government is trying to starve the poor out of existence and no one appears to be doing anything about it at all.

What concerns me most of all is the appearance of 'Breakfast Clubs'. These are established concepts designed to feed school children their first meal of the day, because parents suffering the inconvenience of hardship and poverty are unable to provide their offsprings with that most important meal of the day.
Should 'Breakfast Clubs' become an accepted/recognised provision of schools thus ensuring every child has a nourishing meal at the beginning of each day?

Furthermore, if present government policies are affecting children to such an extreme then doesn't that tell us there's something seriously wrong with the devised system as it stands? 

What can be done for the benefit of all the people and not just the few?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

All you say is true, but it's easy to forget that there are many people still so much worse off in the world.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> All you say is true, but it's easy to forget that there are many people still so much worse off in the world.


Although I share zaros sentiment , not all says is true as unemployment has been on the decrease for quite a while and energy related ultity bills are starting to fall and food prices have been dropping for a couple months.
Well techn ically food prices arent dropping per se but the supermarkets are keeping them artificially low due to extreme competition amongst supermarkets and the supermarkets control the suppliers and compel them to take the hit

But I'm still on his wavelength


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

We run a breakfast club at the school where I teach. It is mostly attended by parents who see it as a cheap babysitting service as we charge £1 for breakfast per child (free for the third child). We are a multicultural school in a deprived area, by the way. 
Most our children are on free school meals (all of KS1 are because it is now the law). We have a big number of children who are overweight or obese. A case of too much of the wrong type of food because it is cheaper and easier to prepare and serve.
Let's hope that come the next election the Tories/Liberals are booted out but I don't hold my breath. 
Personally I am looking forwards to retiring back home (France).


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ladydog said:


> Let's hope that come the next election the Tories/Liberals are booted out but I don't hold my breath.


Labour will not be any better and let us not even talk about UKIP. What is needed is policies based on facts and common sense, not propaganda and what will win votes. Change needs to happen at both ends of the economic divide. Benefits should not be a lifestyle choice for anybody whilst tax loopholes for the rich need to be closed and tax evaders chased up where necessary.

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if people had to put up with ration cards again. I would expect a lot of people would suddenly find an incentive not to be wasteful.

Although it's been ridiculed, basic cooking being taught would also be a good start. How many people now use things like meaty bones for the base of soups for example. How many people remember "bubble and squeak" to use remains of a previous meal instead of it going in the trash.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I think its shocking and disgusting that some children are going hungry....and yet some would still go hungry no matter how much you increased their families benefits on so I think school breakfast clubs etc have got to be a good thing.

On the down side, I think its a shame that kids must be now spending even more time away from home so that they can be in school early enough to eat their breakfasts.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Labour will not be any better and let us not even talk about UKIP. What is needed is policies based on facts and common sense, not propaganda and what will win votes. Change needs to happen at both ends of the economic divide. Benefits should not be a lifestyle choice for anybody whilst tax loopholes for the rich need to be closed and tax evaders chased up where necessary.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder what would happen if people had to put up with ration cards again. I would expect a lot of people would suddenly find an incentive not to be wasteful.
> 
> Although it's been ridiculed, basic cooking being taught would also be a good start. How many people now use things like meaty bones for the base of soups for example. How many people remember "bubble and squeak" to use remains of a previous meal instead of it going in the trash.


we got too used to eating microwavable meals and so lost the art of making a little go a long way.

Recent ad on local TV shows how to make a pea and ham soup.....yuk!! that's not soup( for those who have seen it) Its a few boiled frozen peas and some ham flavoured stock cube boiled with some onion then blitzed with a food processor and served up with some sliced ham and crusty bread in under 10 minutes.....but its lovely

even salad comes pre packed in a plastic bag and costs a fortune


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

We definitely should have rationing for all resources

Food, fuel, etc
Cancel all international debt
Massively reverse globalisation included global government such as the EU
Decrease production and consumption
Forget about worrying about a figure called economic growth as the measure for success reduce population


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

Goblin said:


> *Labour will not be any better and let us not even talk about UKIP.* What is needed is policies based on facts and common sense, not propaganda and what will win votes. Change needs to happen at both ends of the economic divide. Benefits should not be a lifestyle choice for anybody whilst tax loopholes for the rich need to be closed and tax evaders chased up where necessary.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder what would happen if people had to put up with ration cards again. I would expect a lot of people would suddenly find an incentive not to be wasteful.
> 
> Although it's been ridiculed, basic cooking being taught would also be a good start. How many people now use things like meaty bones for the base of soups for example. How many people remember "bubble and squeak" to use remains of a previous meal instead of it going in the trash.


Totally agree but really that is the best of the worst in my opinion.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Tory policy has always been "f**k the poor".. i dont know why people are so surprised.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

The country got too soft under Labour, the benefits bill rocketed eventually it was always gonna have to be pruned back, thats what HMG are doing, cutting the cloth to suit the pocket....


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> The country got too soft under Labour, the benefits bill rocketed eventually it was always gonna have to be pruned back, thats what HMG are doing, cutting the cloth to suit the pocket....


Rules and regulations need some flexibility though. On the flip side tax evaders need to be penalized and tax loopholes closed. Unfortunately government parties look at each other as enemy sides rather than working together for the good of the country.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

The government led us to believe that its austerity measures were about reducing debt, we know now that is a lie. Its about destroying the welfare state & the transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. That's why the super rich have never had it so good while over a million people now rely on foodbanks to keep them fed.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

I wonder how much difference there would be if people actually thought about what they were buying. 

There was a benefits programme on TV the other day, someone was complaining they were struggling to feed their child and hardly had anything to live on. Yet they had Warburton's bread and branded spread... 

A lot of people don't want to sacrifice non-necessities.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

sharloid said:


> I wonder how much difference there would be if people actually thought about what they were buying.
> 
> There was a benefits programme on TV the other day, someone was complaining they were struggling to feed their child and hardly had anything to live on. Yet they had Warburton's bread and branded spread...
> 
> A lot of people don't want to sacrifice non-necessities.


My Mum works at a primary school and she says a lot of the kids do turn up without being fed or in clean clothes which is sad. However, she has also noticed the parents all seem to be able to afford alcohol, ****, tattoos and smartphones......


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

*I live on a council estate where there are loads of unemployed with kids...but walk down the road at night and all you can see is giant televisions in every lounge.I can't afford one.*


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

How many labour MP's will vote against a pay rise? My understanding is MP salaries are determined by an independent body based on independently assessed market rates for the various roles they play. So when is the vote for 47% pay rise? I can ask for a 50% pay rise. Doesn't mean I'll get one.

As I said.. enemy lines set and aggravated by those who push only one direction. This makes a them and us society rather than working together for the common good. Plenty of examples but to start, the so called bedroom tax. Rather than a working towards a system which provides space for those who need it, scrap it as it people complained. Yes changes need to be made but the principle is correct. If the rich have to give up money through taxes, those given houses who don't NEED additional space should be prepared to give up that additional space where possible allowing those less fortunate who need the space access. Instead it's only a rich vs poor. Wonder what the dividing line is. When is someone rich?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Very complicated issues involved. How do we have so many overweight/obese children yet food poverty? How come the queue at the drive through McDonalds and KFC is usually round the block? how come so many people do have those huge TVs and all the latest electrical gadgets? I don't know what the answer is but I think there needs to be a lot more education about how to cook healthy meals on a budget. The tory peer who said this week that poor people lack the skills to shop/cook healthy food on a budget had to apologise for causing offence but did she have a point?

Poor going hungry because they can't cook, says Tory peer - Telegraph


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

It's a we deserve society, not a we need to earn it. That's common to rich and poor.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I remember breakfast clubs starting about 20 years ago to cover the time between parents leaving for work and school starting, seeing as you can't leave children on their own any more, and in so many families both parents work. Lets face it - it was cheap child care so that people could make enough money to pay taxes. They do seem to have new purpose now, but I think still have to cover that gap. Same as after school and homework clubs.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Very complicated issues involved. How do we have so many overweight/obese children yet food poverty? How come the queue at the drive through McDonalds and KFC is usually round the block? how come so many people do have those huge TVs and all the latest electrical gadgets? I don't know what the answer is but I think there needs to be a lot more education about how to cook healthy meals on a budget. The tory peer who said this week that poor people lack the skills to shop/cook healthy food on a budget had to apologise for causing offence but did she have a point?
> 
> Poor going hungry because they can't cook, says Tory peer - Telegraph


I agree with the article - I'm fed up of my taxes going to a bunch of people who've never worked a proper day in their lives and just take my money to sit around doing nothing.

But that's enough talk about the House of Lords.............


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I used to work in "afterschool" club...children were hungry...
parents? I do not know if hungry, but never short of ciggies, booze and drugs...never worked either...:mad2:


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

My parents barely had two ha'pennies to rub together when we were kids, but we never went hungry.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> My parents barely had two ha'pennies to rub together when we were kids, but we never went hungry.


Mine neither and we all had good healthy meals *and* days out.

I wonder how many people who are pleading food poverty, and getting their kids fed by the school, sit smoking ,watching their plasma screen TV while chatting to their friends on FB via their phones.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Don't know about TV's but 90,000 children will be homeless this Christmas. In one of the wealthiest countries in the world I think that is downright shameful.

90,000 children in Britain to face Christmas homeless - Shelter England


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Our local paper did a survey of children's weight in different regions of Cumbria. As many as 21% of reception class children were obese. It was nearer 24% by year 6.
By the look of the queue outside MacDonald's last Sunday the traditional roast has been overtaken by the big mac.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

foxiesummer said:


> Our local paper did a survey of children's weight in different regions of Cumbria. As many as 21% of reception class children were obese. It was nearer 24% by year 6.
> By the look of the queue outside MacDonald's last Sunday the traditional roast has been overtaken by the big mac.


It is quite a sad truth. I think it has something to do with fast food being so popular with kids too. A lot of parents just give in to their kids request rather than cooking and serving a meal that is healthy and affordable. Lets be honest here, tking the kid to McDonald's and ordering a happy meal and a big mac for yourself is much easier and quicker than going to the shop, buying things and trying to cook something that the child will _agree_ to eat. When I used to work in a restaurant I would get quite annoyed when I would serve a table and the parents would ask if the chef could prepare something different for their kid because their offspring unfortunately doesn't like anything off the kids menu. When I was a kid I would eat what I was given because it was not my place to tell the parents what I will be having.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Don't know about TV's but 90,000 children will be homeless this Christmas.


In B&B's is not the same as homeless although "not feeling secure" is a problem. I wonder how many of those couldn't be found council accomodation as homes with additional rooms are not available due to people "deserving" to keep spare bedrooms they no longer actually need  The benefit system should be there for those in need, not for those who feel they deserve it. I keep hearing about those in need and they do exist in numbers. However many people see the benefit system abused not just in the media but through personal experience. Why should people paying their taxes pay for other people's TV's? People don't generally mind taxes to support a benefit system which helps the needy as anybody can fall on hard times.

It's rare that people acknowledge there is abuse which needs sorting at both ends of the financial scale.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Posted on Facebook;

Do they know its Christmas?

No I dont mean the whole band aid Africa starving children thing. (To which enough money has been donated over the last 25 years to build every African family a home and buy them a car...)

Im talking about our own governments..Because while they continue to bombard us with the message that the poor African children are starving and far worse off than 'us' in an effort to guilt trip us to part with what little money we have, they are busy ignoring the facts of modern day life in our own country. 
This Christmas throughout Europe people are dying of cold, too afraid to put on the heating because of rising fuel costs, food banks are the biggest growing business there is, the homeless figures are rising daily. 
We have to work longer for less pension, our health benefits are being slashed at every turn and god forbid you ask for a pay rise. 
Yet the cost of living has risen so much that many people are now surviving (you cant call it living) from pay check to pay check.. In the meantime our governments ignore us take out private health insurence, give themselves double figure pay rises and fat expense accounts and continue to tell us to be grateful because the poor Africans have nothing.. Isnt it time our MP's stared looking at problems at little closer to home ? Or are they scared of opening pandoras box?

LiveLeak.com - Army veteran and his wife die in tragic 'suicide pact' after becoming 'too poor to live through the winter'

* our local supermarket chain has a Christmas appeal , you scan a token at the checkout and they provoide the meal youve chosen to a charity such as the Salvation army, help the aged or a homless shelter. They will porvide transport of the good to the charities so that meals and food parcels can be given out. Personally I think its a great idea. Sad that its needed but a good appeal.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*It would be a good start if people in this country stopped treating people on benefits as second class people.
Let's not forget, one day it might be you.
Whilst we are turning our anger on each other, the government will still be getting away with murder.*


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Contentious I know but I do wonder if we just lack life skills and education in this? The curriculum seems to teach all the skills for academia with the focus on university but lacks provision for basics skills on how to manage money, cook and grow your own whilst supermakets essentially teach false economy through low welfare standard meat and bog off deals and stores play with the psychology of shopping. Media seem to have the monopoly on making people spend but nobody apart from underfunded charities are fixing the damage. meantime cookery classes are billed as the domain of the rich. 

My parents generation knew the 3 day week and just about recall rationing as children and have grown their own veg. I grow my own, been veggie to save money and stopped spending as I've known poverty after leaving my ex and it's frightening. But I knew a way to help myself, I was taught home economics at school and we grew veg in the school, I don't think kids get that now because parents are busy working, too busy to teach or indeed learn themselves.

Prevention is better than cure I guess is what I mean.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> In B&B's is not the same as homeless although "not feeling secure" is a problem. I wonder how many of those couldn't be found council accomodation as homes with additional rooms are not available due to people "deserving" to keep spare bedrooms they no longer actually need  The benefit system should be there for those in need, not for those who feel they deserve it. I keep hearing about those in need and they do exist in numbers. However many people see the benefit system abused not just in the media but through personal experience. Why should people paying their taxes pay for other people's TV's? People don't generally mind taxes to support a benefit system which helps the needy as anybody can fall on hard times.
> 
> It's rare that people acknowledge there is abuse which needs sorting at both ends of the financial scale.


A bedsit isn't a home. Councils have to provide a roof for children, homeless adults aren't so lucky.

The bedroom tax is another assault on the poorest. Of the 660,000 hit by the bedroom tax - 420,000 are sick people, people with disabilities. Do you not think these people are deserving enough to keep their spare room? Bedroom Tax fury at "running scared" Iain Duncan Smith who laughs off Commons absence and mocks Mirror reporters - Mirror Online


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> Contentious I know but I do wonder if we just lack life skills and education in this? The curriculum seems to teach all the skills for academia with the focus on university but lacks provision for basics skills on how to manage money, cook and grow your own whilst supermakets essentially teach false economy through low welfare standard meat and bog off deals and stores play with the psychology of shopping. Media seem to have the monopoly on making people spend but nobody apart from underfunded charities are fixing the damage. meantime cookery classes are billed as the domain of the rich.
> 
> My parents generation knew the 3 day week and just about recall rationing as children and have grown their own veg. I grow my own, been veggie to save money and stopped spending as I've known poverty after leaving my ex and it's frightening. But I knew a way to help myself, I was taught home economics at school and we grew veg in the school, I don't think kids get that now because parents are busy working, too busy to teach or indeed learn themselves.
> 
> Prevention is better than cure I guess is what I mean.


When I was at school (1960s) we weren't taught cooking, or home economics, or any other "life skills" - that was regarded as the responsibility of parents to teach. Just like my Dad spent hours with me driving his car with L-plates on and teaching me how to do basic car care, my Mum showed me how to prepare food and let me cook whole meals. Cleaning (or helping with) was part of most children's family life. Money management - there were no credit cards then, so if you wanted something you saved up for it - adults could get the boring stuff on hire purchase, but there was no HP for kids for toys.

Something has gone badly wrong in society if parents are no longer able to teach their children how to do the basics. But what that is and how to put it right is way beyond me.


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> A bedsit isn't a home.


Certainly a bedsit is a home - I lived in bedsits and flat-shares for a few years just after I left home/university for my first jobs. No-one regarded me as "homeless". Then, they were a way for hard-up people to let a room and get some extra income, and a way for young people to move away from home to work and become independent. Many single people in ordinary jobs who were not living with their parents used to live in bedsits even into middle-age. House-buying was what people did when they got married.

Perhaps too many people have bought into the "home-owning democracy" mindset of the 1980s Tories and expect to live in a way their income does not stretch to.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

spannels said:


> When I was at school (1960s) we weren't taught cooking, or home economics, or any other "life skills" - that was regarded as the responsibility of parents to teach. Just like my Dad spent hours with me driving his car with L-plates on and teaching me how to do basic car care, my Mum showed me how to prepare food and let me cook whole meals. Cleaning (or helping with) was part of most children's family life. Money management - there were no credit cards then, so if you wanted something you saved up for it - adults could get the boring stuff on hire purchase, but there was no HP for kids for toys.
> 
> Something has gone badly wrong in society if parents are no longer able to teach their children how to do the basics. But what that is and how to put it right is way beyond me.


*I was at school until 1965.. We were taught cooking, ironing, sewing and child care.
The schools should never have stopped these things, imho. Plus it didn't help when more and more mothers went out to work.
I know mothers 40+ that haven't got a clue how to cook. No excuse for not learning.*


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

We were taught sewing at school (just as well, as my Mum couldn't dress-make!) but at age 12 we had to choose between doing Art and Needlework or Science, and I chose Science. 

Some schools in our area taught Domestic Science, so I think it probably varied from school to school. But all the other girls I knew were taught to shop and cook by their Mums or Grans, and had household jobs to do on Saturdays from quite a young age.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

spannels said:


> Certainly a bedsit is a home - I lived in bedsits and flat-shares for a few years just after I left home/university for my first jobs. No-one regarded me as "homeless". Then, they were a way for hard-up people to let a room and get some extra income, and a way for young people to move away from home to work and become independent. Many single people in ordinary jobs who were not living with their parents used to live in bedsits even into middle-age. House-buying was what people did when they got married.
> 
> Perhaps too many people have bought into the "home-owning democracy" mindset of the 1980s Tories and expect to live in a way their income does not stretch to.


This isn't about young single people starting out in life, this is about young children & their families living together in one room. Like this one featured in this ITV documentary. Heartbreaking.

https://www.itv.com/itvplayer/tonight/series-16/episode-38-no-place-to-call-home-tonight


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

spannels said:


> When I was at school (1960s) we weren't taught cooking, or home economics, or any other "life skills" - that was regarded as the responsibility of parents to teach. Just like my Dad spent hours with me driving his car with L-plates on and teaching me how to do basic car care, my Mum showed me how to prepare food and let me cook whole meals. Cleaning (or helping with) was part of most children's family life. Money management - there were no credit cards then, so if you wanted something you saved up for it - adults could get the boring stuff on hire purchase, but there was no HP for kids for toys.
> 
> Something has gone badly wrong in society if parents are no longer able to teach their children how to do the basics. But what that is and how to put it right is way beyond me.


I was a 70s child and my dad didn't have a credit card. My mum didn't work due to mental health problems and I think the only benefit we had was child allowance, I know she didn't have any extras. Monetary wise, people have had assistance which is whipped away by this government with little help on then how to get through that. Whilst getting everyone to work is a good aim it provides little time for parents to teach those life skills we refer to. I only learnt them partly at school but mostly because mum, when she was well, was able to do that too. But because she didn't work and made a decision to stay at home to care for us and didn't return to work until my younger brother had left secondary school. Home ec and stuff at school was incredibly gender based but luckily my grandparents were very anti gender and my grandad taught me to oil change and drive cars before I was legally allowed to.

I digress, I do also agree that the Tories and Maggie whilst enabling people like my great aunt in Newcastle to buy her home, also created a huge culture of greed and entitlement that I don't think we've ever escaped from. Once we've been tempted, it's hard to go back a step.


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

Sorry, I haven't time to register and view the programme right now, so I can answer to the details of it but just to say how sorry I am for those poor people. If they have had a tragedy which lost them a home then it's very sad, and certainly the local council should have a duty to house them, even if a B&B is a stop-gap it shouldn't be for the long-term.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

spannels said:


> expect to live in a way their income does not stretch to.


This is the main issue I think. Having said that, they are being seduced by big business/banks/politicians to behave in that way.

That old saying 
"Neither a borrower nor a lender be"
would have saved a great many people a lot of heartache and worry.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> This is the main issue I think. Having said that, they are being seduced by big business/banks/politicians to behave in that way.
> 
> That old saying
> "Neither a borrower nor a lender be"
> would have saved a great many people a lot of heartache and worry.


*I would have agreed with you on this rona. But so many people now have no choice but to borrow.
The fact is, people are now borrowing to pay for essentials, like food heating ect.
That says a lot about the society we now live in.
Sad times.*


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> Whilst getting everyone to work is a good aim it provides little time for parents to teach those life skills we refer to.


This is another thing that puzzles me, we have labour-saving devices and easy-care fabrics (and easy-cook foods), and yet no-one seems to have time for anything. I remember my Mum pre-washing Dad's heavy cotton twill working shirts in the kitchen sink before they went into the twin-tub washing machine. 
Dad worked a five and a half day week when he had overtime, and also helped with looking after his own parents. Mum supplemented the income by providing holiday accommodation (we lived by the sea), "Bed breakfast and evening meal", and later by taking in students from the local college (I think those enterprises provided more extra work than the income justified, but still...) and she went back to office work when I was in my teens. And yet they still had time to teach us useful things (Thank you, Dad, for teaching me painting and decorating, too).


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

spannels said:


> Perhaps too many people have bought into the "home-owning democracy" mindset of the 1980s Tories and expect to live in a way their income does not stretch to.


yeah, all those greedy people expecting basic human rights like clothing, shelter and food... disgusting arent they? lets all vilify them!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I would have agreed with you on this rona. But so many people now have no choice but to borrow.
> The fact is, people are now borrowing to pay for essentials, like food heating ect.
> That says a lot about the society we now live in.
> Sad times.*


But what got them there in the first place. While I totally agreed that each individual case should be looked at for benefits. I also think that works the other way, people should take responsibility for themselves and live within their means.
If you are just about covering your mortgage then don't go splashing the plastic. Many of these people in debt/hardship are still in well paid work.

I know there a many that are in situations through no fault of their own but there are also many that have got themselves into debt by their own greed/consumerism.

It's about time people looked at themselves and stop blaming others.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Just a few shocking figures to explain a little what I mean

Statistics Archive | The Money Charity


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> But what got them there in the first place. While I totally agreed that each individual case should be looked at for an increase in benefits. I also think that works the other way, people should take responsibility for themselves and live within their means.
> If you are just about covering your mortgage then don't go splashing the plastic. Many of these people in debt/hardship are still in well paid work.
> 
> I know there a many that are in situations through no fault of their own but there are also many that have got themselves into debt by their own greed/consumerism.
> ...


*Have you any idea just how many people would love nothing better than to be able to have enough money coming in, so as not to be in such a situation.
It isn't only people out of work now that are suffering. It's working families too.
And i personally hold the government/powers that be, fully responsible.*


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Have you any idea just how many people would love nothing better than to be able to have enough money coming in, so as not to be in such a situation.
> It isn't only people out of work now that are suffering. It's working families too.
> And i personally hold the government/powers that be, fully responsible.*


As I live on well below minimum wage then I'm well aware of how little you can actually live on if you cut your cloth.
The only difference with me is that I have a smallish mortgage.

You really don't need everything new or trips out all the time or that bottle of wine every night to be happy


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *I would have agreed with you on this rona. But so many people now have no choice but to borrow.
> The fact is, people are now borrowing to pay for essentials, like food heating ect.
> That says a lot about the society we now live in.
> Sad times.*


yes, but what rona means is people have been living on ridiculous credit for decades. to buy stupid things. so everyone went round thinking they were better off they were, and this was mirrored by governments too.
ALL governments. for example, in america, its the Rebublicans that went on a huge borrowing spree and bankrupted them, especially george bush.
so its not simply a left-right argument as they try and convince you.

and this system has been institutionalized as the years have gone by thru the act of globalisaation, thru organisations such as world bank, IMF, EU, ETC.

people, especially the 60's baby boomer generations, sold their souls to consumerism and materialism. which is a shame, if you consider that the 60's were all supposed to be about the counter culture and radical thinking.
the old hippies just became conservative (with a small c) hippies.
so now you get the odd result of old 60's hippies paying exorbitant fees to go and watch old 60's bands on their nostalgia tours.
and the result of all this bribery by all politicians, businesses, banks and institutions over the years.
they have bankrupted the world.
they have eaten all their own pies, then eaten all their children's pies, and then all their grandchildren's pies, and eaten all the pies that belong to nature and the planet.
but thats fine, they will all be dead soon and wont have to suffer the global level catastrophe that will befall my young daughter, for example.

you see it all the tie, all the hyprocrisy from the so called left and right.
the benefits system is indeed a great example.
on one hand the tories introduce the awful bedroom tax.
so disabled people need their extra bedroom for equipment or nurses, yet are forced to move or lose money.
or disabled people live in apartments that councils have spent thousands adapting, but they have to move due to a 'spare room'.
so councils then fact the prospect of moving them to a one room less apartment and spending thousands again to adapt that.
and ditto women that are under police protection from violent x-partners that the police or councils have spent thousands on building panic rooms and other security features.
and yet these smaller council properties invariably dont even exist.
so some of these people end up in private rented smaller accommodation with the allowed number of rooms yet the renter is higher so the council still has to pay more housing benefit anyway
therefore this system doesnt even add up according to conservative ideology!

then you get universal benefits. now the benefits system is meant to help the poor and needy. yet well off pensioners get free tv licence, winter fuel, and bus passes. and if anyone dares say they shouldnt have these, you get socialists kicking off and defending the right of well off people to have benefits! WTF. And tories kicking off defending the benefits system!!! WTF.
It was a ditto fuss over middle class child benefits.
And the tories love to complain about the benefits/welfare system, yet happily running a benefits/welfare system for corporations.

So everyone is all about greed, short-termism, and vested insterests

Therefore, if the world had not run according to that system set up by tories and labour, then we wouldnt live a system today that can rationalise that suffering you rightfully mention.

And to think, every country has lent millions ot every other country and banks and countries have lent millions to each other.
all that needs doing is that to all cancel each other out, and pay the difference, which will be miniscule. Simples. Debt crisis gone overnight. No auterity. etc etc etc. 
Put the counters back to zeros, then individuals and countries start again just as rona says, just make do with what they got and what they need instead of what they desire. less international trade wrecking the planet. everyone become more self-sufficient and local.
Now, i understand why tories and capitalists would never talk about that.
But how come you never hear the labour party make that suggestion, or the EU? Its always about "economic growth" bla bla bla. Build more stuff bla bla bla.


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

porps said:


> yeah, all those greedy people expecting basic human rights like clothing, shelter and food... disgusting arent they? lets all vilify them!


No, you misunderstand me - clothing, yes a basic necessity, but if you've only got Primark money, you shouldn't buy Prada. Food, yes, a basic necessity, but waste as little as possible and if you've only got mince money you shouldn't buy fillet steak.

Shelter, yes a basic necessity, but owning your own home isn't - and it can tie you down to a pit to throw money into. More should be done to ensure rents are fair and rented accommodation is kept in good condition.

Poor people *are not* disgusting, and they don't automatically deserve to be vilified.


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> people, especially the 60's baby boomer generations, sold their souls to consumerism and materialism. which is a shame, if you consider that the 60's were all supposed to be about the counter culture and radical thinking.
> the old hippies just became conservative (with a small c) hippies.
> so now you get the odd result of old 60's hippies paying exorbitant fees to go and watch old 60's bands on their nostalgia tours.
> and the result of all this bribery by all politicians, businesses, banks and institutions over the years.
> ...


Well, we didn't all binge on the pies. Don't forget that income tax was much higher with a much lower starting point (30% basic rate), and interest rates were higher, too - the lowest mortgage rate I paid was 7%, the highest was 15%.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

spannels said:


> Well, we didn't all binge on the pies. Don't forget that income tax was much higher with a much lower starting point (30% basic rate), and interest rates were higher, too - the lowest mortgage rate I paid was 7%, the highest was 15%.


yet, you all borrowed because you all needed central heating, 2 holidays abroad per year, widescreen tellies, 2 cars, big christmas's, etc, etc.
as you liked to be thought of as middle class hippies


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

There is that idea of aspiration though. We&#8217;re being constantly bombarded by what we&#8217;re meant to do or have and that also creates a need. I get it with the whole motherhood thing and unwanted advice on how to fix &#8216;it&#8217; and I&#8217;m sure the same is true of everyone to a point. The web promotes this with endless blogs on a multitude of sites, Pinterest and Instagram, Noseybook with aspirational posts. Pre web, it was keeping up with next door, now its&#8217; keeping up with an entire class since it&#8217;s easy to peek over the virtual garden fence. That coupled with previously easy credit and pay day loans means it&#8217;s so quick to get into debt. It&#8217;s probable that those we aspire to be are in debt too but have managed to cling on as they&#8217;re both working but like most have no safety net to keep paying the bills if they lose a job.

I&#8217;m lucky, my husband is older and the benefit is that he manages his money very wisely. We&#8217;ve always had something to cover us but that&#8217;s only because he held down a full time job and two part time one to keep his home when his ex left him. 

And as for time saving devices, we have one very big time waster. The internet. For all it brings in advice and support, it robs in delivering us unattainable lives, body images and easy credit, and time. 

Me and my OH take responsibility for ourselves &#8211; I don&#8217;t look to the government to help me, that&#8217;s bonkers to rely on them, I have more faith in myself to sort my problems out, I can rely on me and I'd never rely on a political party. If I am broke, I downscale the services I have and if I was that broke I&#8217;d not be on PF all the time, I&#8217;d be trying to make or do something to sell to get myself back on track. Or on a job site or looking at further education to help me - it's why I'm spending all my money on the post grad to keep myself in a career and why I did the OU.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> As I live on well below minimum wage then I'm well aware of how little you can actually live on if you cut your cloth.
> The only difference with me is that I have a smallish mortgage.
> 
> You really don't need everything new or trips out all the time or that bottle of wine every night to be happy


*I also know what it is like to live on next to nothing. Been there done that and got the t-shirt.
And i swore i'd never go back to that life style. But i believe many people that judge others ( not you), have no idea what it is like to be at the bottom.
If the bottle of wine, or cigs makes their life more bearable, then i for one won't begrudge them.*


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I think the breakfast clubs are a good idea, as a child and a carer I had no time to eat breakfast in a morning before School and my mother never sorted out the free meals for me so I had no food all day until tea which was usually something I could make for myself (sandwich, fish fingers, soup). 

I don't think it's so much poverty as it is laziness for some parents. It's far easier to let your kids be someone elses problem, especially in a morning. 

One of the issues I have is that we are sending money to help those in poverty overseas but there are so many here that need our help!

If everyone who donated £2 a month to families in Africa donated £2 to those living in poverty in the Uk too then we may not have as many issues as we do.


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> yet, you all borrowed because you all needed central heating, 2 holidays abroad per year, widescreen tellies, 2 cars, big christmas's, etc, etc.
> as you liked to be thought of as middle class hippies


Not all of us borrowed, some did of course being as beguiled by aspiration as the next generations. Holidays abroad - often camping, and mostly Europe (very cheap to go to what was then Yugoslavia). Widescreen tellies are new gear, Radio Rentals for a big box which often went wrong more like . 2 cars became necessary when it became the norm for married women to go out to work and the buses were privatised and all the old routes were cut. We weren't all hippies, just ordinary people of whatever class trying to make a living.

I find it sad that there is so much division being fostered in society today, setting the generations against each other, and fanning the embers of class hatred.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> If the bottle of wine, or cigs makes their life more bearable, then i for one won't begrudge them.*


I do if it means taking food out of their childs mouth so to speak, what is it now £8.00 for a packet of **** £4 for tobacco pouch ( don't smoke any more) I've been where I didn't have two pennies to rub together, no oil over winter, and living on potatoes and veg, I was facing having my house repossessed and my pipes had bust as I had no heat, struggling to find work to do as I was meant to be unable to work because of my back so against Doctors and consultants advise I looked for work. While I don't have kids, I did have dogs, and I stopped smoking and drinking, cut all my services, phone, internet etc to make sure even if I didn't eat I had food for my dogs. The **** & Booze might make it bearable for them at rock bottom but it doesn't keep their kids fed and warm...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> The bedroom tax is another assault on the poorest. Of the 660,000 hit by the bedroom tax - 420,000 are sick people, people with disabilities.


Who could do just as well with smaller places in a lot of cases. Sick <> automatically require larger accomodation although great sensationlist propaganda. What about sick people in work who have to live within their wage? Many of those are just as "sick" as many in your statistics 

Rather than get a system which works, anything which restricts and limits what the "poor deserve as their right" is criticized rather than looking at it objectively and making sure those who need protection get it. Also, too often, it's not those on benefits which suffer most, it's those who work just above the benefit line. They can't afford spare rooms, large TV's etc.

So answer my simple question, why should my taxes pay for someone's TV when I can't easily afford one myself?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Meezey said:


> I do if it means taking food out of their childs mouth so to speak, what is it now £8.00 for a packet of **** £4 for tobacco pouch ( don't smoke any more) I've been where I didn't have two pennies to rub together, no oil over winter, and living on potatoes and veg, I was facing having my house repossessed and my pipes had bust as I had no heat, struggling to find work to do as I was meant to be unable to work because of my back so against Doctors and consultants advise I looked for work. While I don't have kids, I did have dogs, and I stopped smoking and drinking, cut all my services, phone, internet etc to make sure even if I didn't eat I had food for my dogs. The **** & Booze might make it bearable for them at rock bottom but it doesn't keep their kids fed and warm...


*I certainly didn't mean if it meant their children going hungry.*


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> yet, you all borrowed because you all needed central heating, 2 holidays abroad per year, widescreen tellies, 2 cars, big christmas's, etc, etc.
> as you liked to be thought of as middle class hippies


A bit of a sweeping statement,many people would never be allowed to borrow hence payday loans for £100 until payday.Where did you get the idea that ALL did the above.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

The REAL scroungers are not the poor. The government and media have us focusing on wrong set.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

suewhite said:


> A bit of a sweeping statement,many people would never be allowed to borrow hence payday loans for £100 until payday.Where did you get the idea that ALL did the above.


As far as I'm aware payday loan companies are a relatively new thing


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> The REAL scroungers are not the poor. The government and media have us focusing on wrong set.


Sensationalist meme's do not answer my question.. why should my taxes pay for someone else's TV when I can't afford a new one myself?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> The REAL scroungers are not the poor. The government and media have us focusing on wrong set.


*So much truth in your post noushka.
I do have to question, why, when so many things are plain to see for some of us, are totally obscure to others.*


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

spannels said:


> Not all of us borrowed, some did of course being as beguiled by aspiration as the next generations. Holidays abroad - often camping, and mostly Europe (very cheap to go to what was then Yugoslavia). Widescreen tellies are new gear, Radio Rentals for a big box which often went wrong more like . 2 cars became necessary when it became the norm for married women to go out to work and the buses were privatised and all the old routes were cut. We weren't all hippies, just ordinary people of whatever class trying to make a living.
> 
> I find it sad that there is so much division being fostered in society today, setting the generations against each other, and fanning the embers of class hatred.


Of course there arw exceptions
But the aspirational culture and psychology was prevalent mainstream and considered respectable so all parties bought into and persuaded people to vote according to short term gain
The voices that cautioned against danger for the future were side lined
Now that future is here and they were right

So it is generational as my 3 year old will suffer a wrecked planet and pay back the debt our generations voted for
We will be dead


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> As far as I'm aware payday loan companies are a relatively new thing


No always been things like Provident loans and the what people used to call the Tallyman who came round and collected weekly payments all the people that used these could not get a loan at better rates.In the 1960 I lived like that not to have luxuries but to survive.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

My Mum lived on benefits for years, she didn't work from about the age of 45 initially being unemployed then in later years on sickness benefit (I'm talking about the late 80's - late 90's before she got her pension). She lived on £45 per week managing her food and bills (no mortgage and she didn't have to pay council tax) and clothing. She never once got into debt because she knew how to budget and live within her means. So her heating was never on all day and she shopped/cooked wisely. When she eventually got her old age pension she thought she was rich as it was much more than she was used to living on. 

Of course families with children should not be expected to live on this amount but I do think some people need a reality check and to face that they can't afford everything they want. Play stations and IPads and massive TVs don't come before food. How we turn the tide now though is beyond me. I feel very sorry for the youngsters who seem to fall between the cracks of the system and don't get housed because they are low priority.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *So much truth in your post noushka.
> I do have to question, why, when so many things are plain to see for some of us, are totally obscure to others.*


So you are better off them some at a guess. Are you giving away everything which makes you unequal? Why not?

As that is what is being said. Why should a family who save and work hard support those who don't through choice? That's the question which people are avoiding answering which is at the crux of the matter.

"Mummy he's got more than me" doesn't work as an argument.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Sensationalist meme's do not answer my question.. why should my taxes pay for someone else's TV when I can't afford a new one myself?


Many people are unable to even earn a living wage. Half the people on benefits are working for their poverty. A huge chunk of our taxes are going as subsidies to low paying bosses - or straight into the pockets of greedy private landlords.

This is what needs addressing.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *So much truth in your post noushka.
> I do have to question, why, when so many things are plain to see for some of us, are totally obscure to others.*


I blame the media Jan - Its surprising how many people don't even know the NHS is being dismantled and sold off.

You simply cannot trust the corporate media.


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## Mr Gizmo (Jul 1, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> There is that idea of aspiration though. Were being constantly bombarded by what were meant to do or have and that also creates a need. I get it with the whole motherhood thing and unwanted advice on how to fix it and Im sure the same is true of everyone to a point. The web promotes this with endless blogs on a multitude of sites, Pinterest and Instagram, Noseybook with aspirational posts. Pre web, it was keeping up with next door, now its keeping up with an entire class since its easy to peek over the virtual garden fence. That coupled with previously easy credit and pay day loans means its so quick to get into debt. Its probable that those we aspire to be are in debt too but have managed to cling on as theyre both working but like most have no safety net to keep paying the bills if they lose a job.
> 
> Im lucky, my husband is older and the benefit is that he manages his money very wisely. Weve always had something to cover us but thats only because he held down a full time job and two part time one to keep his home when his ex left him.
> 
> ...


Nothing to say except,great post well put.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Many people are unable to even earn a living wage.


Which is why what money is available should go to those who need it. Nobody disputes that. What people do dispute is the avoidance of the issue that money is often going to those who choose to "need" it. Meme's aside and claims it's not true, people have direct personal experience seeing it.

You can't simply play a blame game without looking hard at all layers and correcting them. That includes the so called poor. Life is not free of obligation no matter how much you earn. Finance is only one part of that obligation.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Goblin said:


> those given houses who don't NEED additional space should be prepared to give up that additional space where possible allowing those less fortunate who need the space access. Instead it's only a rich vs poor. Wonder what the dividing line is. When is someone rich?


They are desperately trying. I'm presently working on one of many cases where a woman with a two bedroom house is now weighed down in debt owing to her extra bedroom tax. Because she's fallen behind with rent and can't see a way of paying it off, her local council will not allow her to downsize. This particular case is interesting because her neighbours, who are a couple with one child want to up-size from their one bedroom apartment and the ideal situation would be a simple swap in accommodation. This clearly isn't going to happen and its all down to red tape and bureaucracy.

There are thousands upon thousands of people across the country applying to downsize. There are thousands of low income earners in debt owing to bedroom tax but because there isn't nearly enough 1 and 2 bedroom flats or houses, very few people are able to successfully downsize.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I watch a documentary once about the food banks in the USA, and it shocked me, not because of the food banks, but the fact that things were being tightened up around them and the comments from people made me choke people complaining that with the changes to it that they would now have to get rid of their phone and satellite TV, they were using food banks but could pay for TV and phones?

I also read a news story on FB ( I don't read papers) about the ex Army guy and his wife, who had allegedly committed suicide together because they were living on £57 a week, they were in soup kitchen etc because she had her child taken away because she was deemed unable to look after her due to mental illness, was deemed unable to work so lost both chances of benefit there, but couldn't claim incapacity benefit because she hand't be formal diagnosed, which also meant he couldn't claim as her carer, which he was, she was deemed not mental well enough to look after her child, but it wasn't formal enough for her to get benefits.. THAT'S what's wrong, those who really do needing benefits slipping through the cracks, sadly like everything those that have abused the system for so long had now made it so those who really need it are missed..........I have a friend who has Bipolar disorder, who once was a journalist, who suffers from agoraphobia etc who has to fight tooth and nail too prove she is ill and entitled to her benefits, she's just had to move too to a one bedroom, despite how ill it's made her... Yet I watch the couple across from me get drunk as skunks every weekend, stood smoking outside their door, buying Shar Peis and Bassett hounds having the life of Reilly, neither work.. That's why people get annoyed..


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Many people are unable to even earn a living wage. Half the people on benefits are working for their poverty. A huge chunk of our taxes are going as subsidies to low paying bosses - or straight into the pockets of greedy private landlords.
> 
> This is what needs addressing.


There are many many issues that need addressing though. These couple stand out for me as being one of the many that need addressing and fast

I'm entitled to money from Britain, says Polish mother who lives in Warsaw | Daily Mail Online

Why are we sending child benefit to Poland? - Telegraph


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *Have you any idea just how many people would love nothing better than to be able to have enough money coming in, so as not to be in such a situation.
> It isn't only people out of work now that are suffering. It's working families too.
> And i personally hold the government/powers that be, fully responsible.*


You have a lot of compassion 

I recently read in the Guardian that the average working family in the UK have debts of around £54,000


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> We definitely should have rationing for all resources
> 
> Food, fuel, etc
> Cancel all international debt
> ...


Yes! All of these. Especially the boldened ones

How can every organisation expect to keep growing and keep increasing profits? There is a limit to everything, and the amount of profit squeezed out of your target market is not the only measure of success. And big organisations are the real political powers in the world - not governments.

And as for population - there has never been more access to contraception in this country, and never more opportunities for women and girls to have rewarding careers if they chose to do so - and yet there are so many careless, silly young girls and couples (and some not so young) having babies without the means to support them. And immigration seems to continue unchecked and every half-hearted attempt the govt. makes to stop it seems to get blocked by Europe.

How big do they think this country is? If we want any quality of life for future generations we really need to do something now to limit immigration and discourage people from having children they can't or won't provide for.

I know that there are people who have large families and look after them wonderfully - but many others go from relationship to relationship, "cementing" each one with a child, and then going on to the next. This isn't good for the children, or the parents, or the country.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

The in laws who are disabled don't pay bedroom tax even though there are now only 2 (was 4) of them in a 3 bed house that's been adapted


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Bloody ell' this thread seems to have run away somewhat.:crazy:

I think I need a bit more time to read it through. :yesnod:

However.....



Shoshannah said:


> All you say is true, but it's easy to forget that there are many people still so much worse off in the world.


Not wishing to appear completely heartless, (I'm not a politician) I didn't intend this topic to be about consolation. But if that's how you prefer it then you must be trying to convince me that if a man or woman has no home, no money and no food. It's winter, they're freezing cold and soaking wet they should console themselves and find comfort in the thought that there is someone else in the world far worse off than they are.:001_unsure:

Perhaps someone should spread that message amongst the homeless and the needy closer to home. I'm sure the government would heartily approve of their charitable words of wisdom and endeavours.

I sincerely hope you never do but if you should ever fall from grace through no fault or design of your own and plunge into an ocean of desperation I wonder if you'll find consideration enough to spare a thought for someone else across that vast turbulent expanse who may be finding it even more difficult than yourself to hold on to some semblance of a life line?

Having once been the victim, or should I say 'statistic' (because victim implies a crime has taken place) of a failing system and after reading some of the comments posted I find it quite interesting that nothing is ever likely to change all the while one party and its advocates blames another party and its advocates and we should not forget that whilst someone somewhere is being negligent and eager to point an accusatory finger, someone else somewhere else is facing the imminent prospects of a distressing hardship.

Someone mentioned they couldn't afford to buy a widescreen TV (my advice, take comfort from Shosh's words.:001_smile: There are many more who don't have a TV at all) yet this person claims they could see all the widescreen TV's owned by those who they say are on benefits glaring at them through windows as they walked passed their houses.

With respect to those observations, (Ya nosey neighbour:wink perhaps they already owned the appliance before becoming unemployed?

Granted, I accept some people on benefits, particularly those with a sense of entitlement, know exactly how to play the system and they do it very well and these are the people the media prefer to focus their attentions on and then favour we do likewise. 
But in truth there are many, many more who don't know the system and for them the benefit system is about rationing. Rationing electric, rationing gas and rationing food. All these things are considered 'essentials' by the govt'.

Yet as I understand it food poverty alone is becoming more widespread. I'm learned that more Food banks are appearing around the country and more and more people are are having to rely on them when their meagre benefits run out.
Then of course we have to consider the working poor? Who speaks for them? People who earn a wage that barely supports their family. A family in which a Birthday or Christmas present is no longer an 'essential' because of the lifestyle they've become trapped in. How does such a stark impact influence their children?

My grandmother once told me that those who were in a position of privilege had a duty of care to those who were not so privileged. Obviously, if this was ever the case it certainly is not today.

I'm inclined to believe that as time moves relentlessly on this fractured society of ours will gradually care less and less about the next person. It already shows signs of losing touch with empathy and compassion and has fast become hard hearted, greedy, selfish, aggressive and blatantly arrogant.
﻿
If I were to to apportion any blame, and I do want to, then it's not just the Tories who are ultimately to blame. It's not just Labour. It's not just the Liberals. It's not just the Lib Dems, etc, etc, etc. 
Collectively, it's every last one of them. Over time they've all had a hand in the downfall of the nations people.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ThelifeofPi said:


> They are desperately trying.


Which is why I've previously stated, instead of simply drawing lines of yes/no, all sides should be working together to make it work, so incidents like this don't exist. The system needs to recognise realities and recognise the world is not black and white.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> There are many many issues that need addressing though. These couple stand out for me as being one of the many that need addressing and fast
> 
> I'm entitled to money from Britain, says Polish mother who lives in Warsaw | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Why are we sending child benefit to Poland? - Telegraph


*The biggest issue that needs addressing is, why would any leader of a country allow their people to suffer.
How they sleep at night is beyond me. But it says a lot about them.*


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Bloody ell' this thread seems to have run away somewhat.:crazy:
> 
> I think I need a bit more time to read it through. :yesnod:
> 
> ...


I agree with much of what you are saying. However the bit in bold I can't agree with. Whenever there is an appeal for funds in this country whether its for famine/flood/earthquake abroad we donate massive amounts (personally I mean not the government), every year we have things like Children in Need, Comic or Sport Relief and Text Santa. This year alone we donated 32 million to Children In Need and 51 million to Sport Relief.

I think as a nation we are generally very fair minded but over recent years it feels as if we are being taken more and more for a ride by people who have made benefits a lifestyle choice and actually live a pretty comfortable life out of it. I would never object to my taxes going towards genuine cases of hardship and wish the government would leave the sick and disabled alone and concentrate their efforts on scroungers and people who get benefits just because the EU says they should even though their families don't even live here.

Yes in days gone by the privileged and wealthy landowners did look after the vulnerable by funding schools and giving out some food but nothing like the scale that is expected today. It can't be right that we are having to employ bricklayers and sandwich makers from eastern Europe because the unemployed here won't do that sort of work for the salary on offer.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *The biggest issue that needs addressing is, why would any leader of a country allow their people to suffer.
> How they sleep at night is beyond me. But it says a lot about them.*


But we don't have a bottomless pit of money. To look after all the vulnerable and needy people we need to make savings elsewhere and not be the go to place for welfare/benefits/NHS treatment for anyone in the world to come and abuse.


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

rona said:


> The in laws who are disabled don't pay bedroom tax even though there are now only 2 (was 4) of them in a 3 bed house that's been adapted


Are they pension age? Have they been in receipt of housing benefit continuously since 1996 or before? Have they applied for and been granted DHP. All of these will void the bedroom tax charge


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Bloody ell' this thread seems to have run away somewhat.:crazy:
> 
> I think I need a bit more time to read it through. :yesnod:
> 
> ...


Well said zaros, good post

Can't quite give you a like though LOL as you hadn't read thread so didn't notice some of us had actually made the point all the parties are culpable.
They all buy into the economic growth globalisation debt mass production system -as do most countries and the EU

the wide screen telly point was for more reasons the one you stated
You made good point they may have already owned it but that still garners the questions how did they 'afford' (debt?) and if times are hard should they or should they not save money by selling it and not pay for it's running?
Also I'm not quite sure shosh meant what you said?

PS - like the sound of your grandma


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## 2Cats2Dogs (Oct 30, 2012)

Whilst I feel the OP's despair, I think the problem lies with that the country is flat broke. Didn't they announce that they finally paid the debt off from the First World War? That started 100 years ago! On that ratio We have to wait another 25 years to pay off the debt for the Second World War. An economist did a documentary years ago in which at 2011 the total debt for the UK was £4.2 trillion! To break that figure down if all of the people in this country had to pay that debt off, each person (on current stats) in this country would account for £28K of it! 

There is just so much wrong that I don't know where to begin. Firstly the one project going on that I hope inspires change is the HS2. Yes I know it's costing us billions, but that will help to unite the whole north/south divide. It will help spread wealth and those areas hit by industry closures and the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs can hopefully take jobs a tad further afield. It's sad that yes many jobs were decimated. I know the Tories were to blame, but they had their hands tied by budget constraints. What they should've done when nationalising services and encouraging foreign investment was make it law that these companies had to employ nationals from this country. Investors came in. Lapped up the soft tax laws and punted their operations into cheap labour countries and kicked back swallowing up the profits. That should've been a no no from the get go. Things are changing though. With this global recession Britain has a low tax band for the rich compared with other countries. The French tax their millionaires upto 75%!! So we are attracting richer folk, just if they plan on living here, provide for the workers!

In terms of culture and society in general. There is really a lack of basic skills. My nephew recently left school. My brother and SIL between them didn't know how to write a CV, so I done it for him. My nephews don't know how to cook or tidy up. They are being crippled for the future. Not sure how they will handle rejection or being able to fend for themselves. It worries me greatly. I used to have my nephews round at weekends to teach them cooking basics and gardening and DIY and that stopped when they complained to my SIL about being 'tired' from it! As for the state. The ambition for most of the girls in my year at school was leave, get up the duff, get a house for it and benefits. That attitude has to stop. The whole pregnancy = benefits and house equation has to go. I would (I know it sounds harsh and I will take flak for this) do away with child benefit. Simply for me, kids are a privilege, not a right or tool. Like with animals, you want them, you pay for them yourself. There is far too much state reliance and it is unsustainable. 

Tackling poverty. This is tough. There is no doubt in my mind (I have seen budget reports for it) that the NHS, Council and Social Services will make more and more deeper cuts. The hospitals in the south here are posting defecits (which for me is great from a job point of view) and local councils have been hit with massive savings targets, which can only realistically be achieved with service reductions. So the help for the elderly and disabled is going to become even more scarce. My fear that a survival of the fittest mantra will become the norm as time goes by. It's a brutal state of affairs. I work in an ITU department and the patient food is disgusting. Frozen meals de-frosted and heated up in a microwave. That's not good enough from a nutritional standpoint, but a cost effective measure. There will be an even bigger reliance on charities and help groups to help those who can't get/afford additional help. They can only provide so much. 

I would love to leave this world in a better place for future generations, but I can't see that happening


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

2Cats2Dogs said:


> Whilst I feel the OP's despair, I think the problem lies with that the country is flat broke. Didn't they announce that they finally paid the debt off from the First World War? That started 100 years ago! On that ratio We have to wait another 25 years to pay off the debt for the Second World War. An economist did a documentary years ago in which at 2011 the total debt for the UK was £4.2 trillion! To break that figure down if all of the people in this country had to pay that debt off, each person (on current stats) in this country would account for £28K of it!
> 
> There is just so much wrong that I don't know where to begin. Firstly the one project going on that I hope inspires change is the HS2. Yes I know it's costing us billions, but that will help to unite the whole north/south divide. It will help spread wealth and those areas hit by industry closures and the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs can hopefully take jobs a tad further afield. It's sad that yes many jobs were decimated. I know the Tories were to blame, but they had their hands tied by budget constraints. What they should've done when nationalising services and encouraging foreign investment was make it law that these companies had to employ nationals from this country. Investors came in. Lapped up the soft tax laws and punted their operations into cheap labour countries and kicked back swallowing up the profits. That should've been a no no from the get go. Things are changing though. With this global recession Britain has a low tax band for the rich compared with other countries. The French tax their millionaires upto 75%!! So we are attracting richer folk, just if they plan on living here, provide for the workers!
> 
> ...


so just more of the same system then that has been causing this debt problem for100 years?

The debt isn't actually real money. All this money doesn't actually exist

Why not instead just cancel all the debt and just each country make they need and merely import essentials and only spend money we actually have

Then we won't need to destroy the planet by building things like HS2 which is going cause mass environment destruction including poisoning the water table. The construction is gonna do this.
Just to make a journey20 minutes quicker!!!
Madness
Its also known its gonna suck all the wealth from the north anyway as everything is gonna attract to Birmingham and London

Absolute insanity including the cost when they tell us we are so poor we need the bedroom tax and the current debt will take hundreds years.

We actually are one of the highest indebted nations on the planet right now
We don't even really have an austerity system that is a lie both sides tell you
We still borrow several millions EVERY DAY

PS - and by the time they finish HS2 anyway, technology will be much advanced in the mobile distance business communications field. so less travel!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But we don't have a bottomless pit of money. To look after all the vulnerable and needy people we need to make savings elsewhere and not be the go to place for welfare/benefits/NHS treatment for anyone in the world to come and abuse.


*There is far more money to be had, if only the governments used it wisely. Why do we send millions to a country like India, when India said they didn't want it.
How can we get into wars at the drop of a hat when it suits them? And how come money still finds its way back to the richest people?*


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

rona said:


> The in laws who are disabled don't pay bedroom tax even though there are now only 2 (was 4) of them in a 3 bed house that's been adapted


Mostly like due to their age Rona



Tails and Trails said:


> Well said zaros, good post
> 
> Can't quite give you a like though LOL as you hadn't read thread so didn't notice some of us had actually made the point all the parties are culpable.
> They all buy into the economic growth globalisation debt mass production system -as do most countries and the EU
> ...


You are talking about means tested benefits then - someone who has worked for years and loses their job so needs to claim benefits, there home is inspected and they are told they need to sell everything and live off that. That's how it used to work years ago.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *There is far more money to be had, if only the governments used it wisely. Why do we send millions to a country like India, when India said they didn't want it.
> How can we get into wars at the drop of a hat when it suits them? And how come money still finds its way back to the richest people?*


Yes I agree with you about foreign aid, I think that whole budget should be reallocated to use here instead of being given to countries who neither need nor want it. It should actually be called the bribery budget as they seem to use it to try and buy favour which never works anyway. Also agree about getting involved in wars that are none of our business but still think the welfare spending needs to be reformed too.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

spannels said:


> I find it sad that there is so much division being fostered in society today, setting the generations against each other, and fanning the embers of class hatred.












also sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick from one of your earlier posts


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

DoodlesRule said:


> Mostly like due to their age Rona
> 
> You are talking about means tested benefits then - someone who has worked for years and loses their job so needs to claim benefits, there home is inspected and they are told they need to sell everything and live off that. That's how it used to work years ago.


Not not really
You just quoted my post yourself
I never even wrote this
I meant only what I actually wrote


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

Jonescat said:


> I remember breakfast clubs starting about 20 years ago to cover the time between parents leaving for work and school starting, seeing as you can't leave children on their own any more, and in so many families both parents work. Lets face it - it was cheap child care so that people could make enough money to pay taxes. They do seem to have new purpose now, but I think still have to cover that gap. Same as after school and homework clubs.


Absolutely!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> yet, you all borrowed because you all needed central heating, 2 holidays abroad per year, widescreen tellies, 2 cars, big christmas's, etc, etc.
> as you liked to be thought of as middle class hippies


That's a ridiculous generalisation and completely inaccurate.

I was a teenager in the 1960s. Most homes certainly did not have central heating and neither did most families own a car.

Holidays abroad were virtually unheard of, our family had one week a year in Rhyl.

There were no credit cards. If you didn't have the money to buy something, you went without and no Bank in those days would ever have lent money to fund a holiday, car or anything else which was seen then as a luxury, not a necessity.

That generation very much learned to live off what they earned, they cooked food instead of buying it ready made, they didn't have mobile 'phones or flatscreen televisions or fancy holidays.

How can that generation be to blame for today's sorry state of affairs?

How could they have eaten all the pies? There weren't any pies.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *There is far more money to be had, if only the governments used it wisely. Why do we send millions to a country like India, when India said they didn't want it.
> How can we get into wars at the drop of a hat when it suits them? And how come money still finds its way back to the richest people?*


tick to all that PLUS the list rottie added.
its the same list and same problem


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> That's a ridiculous generalisation and completely inaccurate.
> 
> I was a teenager in the 1960s. Most homes certainly did not have central heating and neither did most families own a car.
> 
> ...


_from _the sixties, not_ in_ the 1960's - how it developed.
the absence of these things in the former is what drove the debt fueled consumerist aspiration from the latter, to the present day.
everyone knows this has now costed the future, including the environment
that central point is pretty much accepted now

the bishop of london wrote quite a big speech upon this very thing

the way things are headed is the present school children will inhabit a world that the pre baby boomer war generations understood


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I agree with much of what you are saying. However the bit in bold I can't agree with.


Then you'll have to find it in your heart to forgive me because I wrote in haste and in doing so was evidently careless and misleading with the message I was attempting to convey.:blush:

My comment regarding society lacking certain attributes was formed on experience and the opinions of people who carelessly and casually spread inaccurate statements about those who are impoverished and yet had absolutely no real understanding of their respective histories or how each of them fell upon hard times. They appeared to base their judgements and condemnations on gossip, rumour and the propaganda spread by word of mouth which, all too often, is incubated / nurtured by a vicious and poisonous media. Understandably, such characteristics don't just make them appear wholly ignorant but also uncaring, spiteful and bloody hateful.

As I've previously stated, having once been a statistic (victim) of someone else's gross misconduct I've experienced and heard it all. I've been forced to endure the exclusion from society, as well as the constant humiliation, degradation and the ridicule that seems to accompany it.

The point is the homeless are still homeless and their numbers ever increase. The hungry are still hungry and their numbers ever increase. And the poorly paid are still poorly paid and their numbers too ever increase.

Perhaps I'm a bit simple or just a simple dreamer but if enough people truly cared, then surely, this would not be so. :001_unsure:



Tails and Trails said:


> Well said zaros, good post
> 
> *Can't quite give you a like though LOL as you hadn't read thread so didn't notice some of us had actually made the point all the parties are culpable*.


Then in that case it would seem to me that if the Rht Honourable members of PF's are able to agree unanimously on a topic the Rht Honourable members of PF's should be running the bleedin' country and not the mongrels that have been allowed to run unchecked and sh1t on everyone's doorstep but their own!:001_smile:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Zaros said:


> I sincerely hope you never do but if you should ever fall from grace through no fault or design of your own and plunge into an ocean of desperation I wonder if you'll find consideration enough to spare a thought for someone else across that vast turbulent expanse who may be finding it even more difficult than yourself to hold on to some semblance of a life line?


I did after working and paying tax for many years. I was told there was no help out there for me being a single female with no children 

This is why it pisses me off to see those that have put themselves in these positions due to their own greed, stupidity, sneakiness or downright lies getting what should be used for those that truly have ended up in difficulty through no fault of their own.

I've seen a whole family live of the tax payer for years because of a bad back apparently, then as soon as the kids left home, he started work as a labourer, bought his council house, sold it off at a huge profit and now lives a comfortable life in France while collecting their pensions from the UK!!!

I've seen a very young girl get pregnant on purpose (she told me this) before she ever started work, get a flat, have another child and live off the tax payer for years.

I really really would love the vunerable of our country to be cared for, but while these leaches are getting some of the money, I fear the truly vulnerable will suffer.

That's not to say that the leaches at the top of the social scale shouldn't get their comeuppance too


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Pretty sure you used to have to sell all your stuff to get poor relief and in to the workhouse back when, which meant workers sold the tools of their trade and were permanently dependent from then on. Not really a good solution. 

There was an organisation on the radio yesterday who put ex soldiers in to schools to help where they can, and I think the speakler said they concentrate on teaching resilience, resourcefulness and something else beginning with r, which they called life skills. They then went on to talk about children not knowing about making beds, and teaching kids to look after themselves in a really very basic way. Bit more of that and a bit less assessment perhaps? also a bit more "why don't you switch off the television and go and do something more interesting instead?". Then children (who do grow up to be people) might learn to make their own judgements and to evaluate what they see, not accept the edited cut of anything from anyone.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rona said:


> I did after working and paying tax for many years. I was told there was no help out there for me being a single female with no children
> 
> *I've seen a very young girl get pregnant on purpose* (she told me this) before she ever started work, get a flat, have another child and live off the tax payer for years.


I feel for you Rona. I honestly do.

The small bit in bold reminds me of a conversation I overheard whilst waiting for the unemployment office to give me the verdict on my rightful claim as a single father living with two of my three children after I was made redundant.

Sixteen she was and applying for benefits without a work history. The unemployment office told her she was not entitled to any assistance *BUT* and you'll notice that was a big BUT, if she found herself pregnant her circumstances would be viewed very differently.

Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink.

Now what sort of message is that to bandy around:001_unsure:

However, owing to a little subterfuge played by my ex wife, she withheld the Family Income Support book and was entitled to do so because it was issued in her name, I was informed that I fell outside the strict govt guidelines and was not entitled to any financial assistance with my children.:angry:

Try as much as I did, caring for two youngsters on a single man's unemployment was destined to failure from the off.:sad:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> I did after working and paying tax for many years. I was told there was no help out there for me being a single female with no children
> 
> This is why it pisses me off to see those that have put themselves in these positions due to their own greed, stupidity, sneakiness or downright lies getting what should be used for those that truly have ended up in difficulty through no fault of their own.
> 
> ...


*People like this are the minority. And again i will say, blame the powers that be.
Also take a look at the other side, the rich people. How many are allowed to get off scot free by tax avoidance.*


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

On "Benefits Britain" last night, the whole Rumanian family who drove for 40 hours to get here to claim benefits, how bloody stupid is this country?


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I think some of the poorest people are those who are in work on a very low salary even zero hour contracts.I slept out last week with the homeless they were'nt people that choose that way of life, circumstances had forced it even 2 soldiers I learnt that it can happen to anyone for many reasons.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *People like this are the minority. And again i will say, blame the powers that be.
> Also take a look at the other side, the rich people. How many are allowed to get off scot free by tax avoidance.*


Sadly that leaves the rest of us somewhere in the middle working hard trying to pay for everyone else.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *People like this are the minority. And again i will say, blame the powers that be.
> Also take a look at the other side, the rich people. How many are allowed to get off scot free by tax avoidance.*


That's just 2 of many I know about so just with them that's 3 adults, 5 kids and two households that you and I paid for, for lets say 10 years, one was well over twenty years.

As I said I really don't mind supporting people in true need and I'm sure as hell wanting the scumbags at the top to to be wheedled out.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> On "Benefits Britain" last night, the whole Rumanian family who drove for 40 hours to get here to claim benefits, how bloody stupid is this country?


Have you considered that programmes like this are edited for shock value?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> That's just 2 of many I know about so just with them that's 3 adults, 5 kids and two households that you and I paid for, for lets say 10 years, one was well over twenty years.
> 
> As I said I really don't mind supporting people in true need and I'm sure as hell wanting the scumbags at the top to to be wheedled out.


*Your anger is better aimed at the rich. *


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *Your anger is better aimed at the rich. *


why shouldnt we be angry at both?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Have you considered that programmes like this are edited for shock value?


*Shock value and full of lies. But they are getting their message across.*


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Your anger is better aimed at the rich. *


Jan who do you class as the rich?


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

For all those who moan about "Their" tax & NI contributions paying for those on benefit, think on; the portion of taxes and NI that you pay into the system is your insurance policy for the day that you find yourself incapacitated or jobless or a full time carer to your partner. 

The last time I looked, something like 80% of the portion of tax that goes towards benefits is for our future pensions.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

rona said:


> I did after working and paying tax for many years. I was told there was no help out there for me being a single female with no children
> 
> This is why it pisses me off to see those that have put themselves in these positions due to their own greed, stupidity, sneakiness or downright lies getting what should be used for those that truly have ended up in difficulty through no fault of their own.
> 
> ...


I agree - my job barely pays over minimum wage, I pay all the rent and bills by myself and I'm not eligible for a single penny of any sort of benefit. Yet I know plenty of people who have a kid with someone they've known a few months and get a nice house out of it. Benefits should be a safety net, not a hammock


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


Tails and Trails said:



why shouldnt we be angry at both?

Click to expand...

You can be angry at whoever you wish.



suewhite said:



Jan who do you class as the rich?

Click to expand...

Anyone that has so much money they would never spend it.
It can't be right that there is such a big gap between those that have, and those that don't.
Don't get me wrong, i personally don't care how much joe blogs has, But i do care about the people that don't have anything.*


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

ThelifeofPi said:


> For all those who moan about "Their" tax & NI contributions paying for those on benefit, think on; the portion of taxes and NI that you pay into the system is your insurance policy for the day that you find yourself incapacitated or jobless or a full time carer to your partner.
> 
> The last time I looked, something like 80% of the portion of tax that goes towards benefits.


Blooming heck!! just had a look at my pay slip and my insurance policy is costing me.Tax £388.80 NI £237.68 doubt I would get much if I was jobless.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

suewhite said:


> Jan who do you class as the rich?


I know this wasn't directed at me but I'll give my 10 cents worth.

People's definition of rich is subjective. some people may think that anyone who earns twice as much themselves as rich. I believe millionaires living comfortable lifestyles in places like Chelsea are rich.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

No need to go without a TV.

Go to Bright House - pay for it weekly - very reasonable 

55" Flat Screen TV - Cost £1,869.42

Weekly payment £23.00

Number of weeks 156

Representative APR 64.7 %

*Total payable £3,588.00*


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

suewhite said:


> Blooming heck!! just had a look at my pay slip and my insurance policy is costing me.Tax £388.80 NI £237.68 doubt I would get much if I was jobless.


Surely you understand that the tax & NI you pay for your future pension (unless you opted out) and benefits if needed are only a small proportion of what you pay out. Taxes pay for the armed forces, civil service, emergency services and almost anything you can think of that is supplied by your local council or government.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Surely you understand that the tax & NI you pay for your future pension (unless you opted out) and benefits if needed are only a small proportion of what you pay out. Taxes pay for the armed forces, civil service, emergency services and almost anything you can think of that is supplied by your local council or government.


I was'nt actually moaning about it (well may be a bit)just think its about time they stopped squeezing hard working people quite so much.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> No need to go without a TV.
> 
> Go to Bright House - pay for it weekly - very reasonable
> 
> ...


By the time you finished paying it would have conked out and you'd have to start again.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *Shock value and full of lies. But they are getting their message across.*


I find this increasingly alarming. 
I have a really good book called "Chavs" by a young author called Owen Jones. Its about the demonization of the British poor; a campaign that takes the working class eye away from the real goings on within the big establishment.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I find this increasingly alarming.
> I have a really good book called "Chavs" by a young author called Owen Jones. Its about the demonization of the British poor; a campaign that takes the working class eye away from the real goings on within the big establishment.


I don't think we are all that stupid, are we?

There are many causes/solutions to the problems that we are all facing - most of us don't point the finger in only one direction


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rona said:


> That's just 2 of many I know about so just with them that's 3 adults, 5 kids and two households that you and I paid for, for lets say 10 years, one was well over twenty years.
> 
> As I said I really don't mind supporting people in true need and I'm sure as hell wanting the scumbags at the top to to be wheedled out.


Sadly I know several in my family and my in laws which you can imagine went down like a dose of salts with me 

I have less patience with people like this than those who are rich - sometimes through sheer hard work. Not everyone is rich through greed but sometimes because they are careful with money and morals.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> I don't think we are all that stupid, are we?
> 
> There are many causes/solutions to the problems that we are all facing - most of us don't point the finger in only one direction


*But there can only be one direction to point the finger. Let me ask you this.
If you employed a body of people to look after your affairs, and they didn't look after your interests, what would you do? Or if they were made rich at your expense?
People forget, our governments are supposed to work for us, and that includes taking our welfare into account.
*


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *But there can only be one direction to point the finger. Let me ask you this.
> If you employed a body of people to look after your affairs, and they didn't look after your interests, what would you do? Or if they were made rich at your expense?
> People forget, our governments are supposed to work for us, and that includes taking our welfare into account.
> *


yeah but as soon as they come to power no matter which party they go back on almost all their manifesto. Truthfully there isn't one single party that represents me right now. I will vote as women worked hard to get the vote but honestly think I'll go Monster Raving Looney Party. People forget politicians are not to be trusted.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> I don't think we are all that stupid, are we?
> 
> There are many causes/solutions to the problems that we are all facing - most of us don't point the finger in only one direction


By the simple fact that you are debating this implies that you do have an interest and you do want to debate things; whereas I would argue that fairly large majority of people have no understanding and little interest in the political goings on in this country, not because they are stupid (your words not mine) but because of lack of interest and a huge amount of naivety.
If people are quite happy to accept what they read in the trash tabloids like the right wing Daily Mail and watch controversial documentaries, then they will get up in arms about benefit fraud and immigration.

I'm on a political forum and I've watched the recent growing hatred towards immigrants in Britain. That along with benefit scroungers seems enough to drill up anger on mass and the most alarming thing is, these people are primarily working class folk. Do I think such people are educated? I certainly believe they have no political education and they look no further than the end of the trash tabloids they are reading.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I find this increasingly alarming.
> I have a really good book called "Chavs" by a young author called Owen Jones. Its about the demonization of the British poor; a campaign that takes the working class eye away from the real goings on within the big establishment.


Some people end up in financial difficulty through no fault of their own.

Some people are 'poor' because they're lazy and don't want to work.

I don't believe anyone here wants to see genuinely needy people penalized, but personally, I would like to see those who choose to live on benefits when they're perfectly able to work, weeded out.

Benefits are for the needy, not the lazy.

Believe me, I know some who have worked out how to live a comfortable life whilst not actually doing a stroke of work.

The taxpayer is footing the bill for it all.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *But there can only be one direction to point the finger. Let me ask you this.
> If you employed a body of people to look after your affairs, and they didn't look after your interests, what would you do? Or if they were made rich at your expense?
> People forget, our governments are supposed to work for us, and that includes taking our welfare into account.
> *


But none of them ever do, they all go back on promises and feather their own nests, Mr Blair being a prime example of that.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Sweety, I can't argue with that. There are people working the system but its nothing like as big as we think it is. There are fraudsters within the system and believe me, the consequences are very severe if and when they get caught and we do have people working around the clock investigating such people. I suppose the positive of that is, they do create employment!. 


Imagine choosing welfare as a lifestyle choice. Nobody chooses to be poor unless they have lost hope, suffer from clinical depression and low self esteem. People who choose to live on benefits become socially reclusive because they lose all social status in a blame and shame society. 

Its incredibly difficult to live off the system if you don't have young children, are not a full time carer or have a physical/mental disability. If you are fit for work you are hounded and I mean literally hounded every week when you go and sign on. If you are deemed fit to work, the money you receive will be pitiful. At best you will be buying your shoes from a charity shop and you will certainly be planning every penny you spend. 

There needs to be a system that helps people who have become dysfunctional. We need to stop forcing young mums to go back to work when their baby is six weeks old because without a second income they can't cover the bills. I'm sure lots of mums would love to be "at home mums" and it should be their choice but because we live in a society where affordability relies on two steady incomes, we take away those choices.

We need more available jobs. We need to raise better self esteem in people applying for jobs but more than anything we need to stop being so bloody aspirational when it comes to choosing a job.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ThelifeofPi said:


> By the simple fact that you are debating this implies that you do have an interest and you do want to debate things; whereas I would argue that fairly large majority of people have no understanding and little interest in the political goings on in this country, not because they are stupid (your words not mine) but because of lack of interest and a huge amount of naivety.
> If people are quite happy to accept what they read in the trash tabloids like the right wing Daily Mail and watch controversial documentaries, then they will get up in arms about benefit fraud and immigration.
> 
> I'm on a political forum and I've watched the recent growing hatred towards immigrants in Britain. That along with benefit scroungers seems enough to drill up anger on mass and the most alarming thing is, these people are primarily working class folk. Do I think such people are educated? I certainly believe they have no political education and they look no further than the end of the trash tabloids they are reading.


Could it not be that they actually agree with what's being said?   :confused

Just because they don't agree with your point of view, it doesn't make them stupid, uninterested or even uneducated


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Imagine choosing welfare as a lifestyle choice. Nobody chooses to be poor unless they have lost hope, suffer from clinical depression and low self esteem. People who choose to live on benefits become socially reclusive because they lose all social status in a blame and shame society.
> 
> Its incredibly difficult to live off the system if you don't have young children, are not a full time carer or have a physical/mental disability. If you are fit for work you are hounded and I mean literally hounded every week when you go and sign on. If you are deemed fit to work, the money you receive will be pitiful. At best you will be buying your shoes from a charity shop and you will certainly be planning every penny you spend.


I've have 2 sisters that have been on welfare, one for a short period and one for a year both after redundancy ( the year only because she was older and had difficulty finding a job). Both were shocked at just how easy it was to get and neither were hounded or ill 

My opinions are based on what goes on in and around my life as I rarely read papers. From what I have witnessed. the welfare system needed tightening up.
I'm sorry for the few that are worthy having been caught up in this, but hopefully with revues of their cases it can be sorted out for them


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Sensationalist meme's do not answer my question.. why should my taxes pay for someone else's TV when I can't afford a new one myself?


Why should my taxes pay for millionaire MP's expenses? http://agirlcalledjack.com/2013/11/...claiming-up-to-25k-in-accommodation-expenses/ Pay for the badger cull? subsidise fracking, grouse shoots, shot guns? bail out failing banks? pay for trident? wars?



Goblin said:


> So you are better off them some at a guess. Are you giving away everything which makes you unequal? Why not?
> 
> As that is what is being said. Why should a family who save and work hard support those who don't through choice? That's the question which people are avoiding answering which is at the crux of the matter.
> 
> "Mummy he's got more than me" doesn't work as an argument.


How have you jumped to this conclusion again? lol That is not whats being said at all. What is being said is that we're NOT really 'all in this together'. Under the coalition the rich have got MUCH richer while the rest have seen their income drop. Inequality has soared pushing those with the least into desperation.

This is about a government under the cloak of austerity transferring public assets into private hands as fast as humanly possible.

Tax cuts for the rich austerity for the rest of us. Corporations & the super rich allowed to avoid & evade paying their taxes. The wealthiest in society claiming benefits - the poorest having their benefits slashed or removed.



Goblin said:


> Which is why what money is available should go to those who need it. Nobody disputes that. What people do dispute is the avoidance of the issue that money is often going to those who choose to "need" it. Meme's aside and claims it's not true, people have direct personal experience seeing it.
> 
> You can't simply play a blame game without looking hard at all layers and correcting them. That includes the so called poor. Life is not free of obligation no matter how much you earn. Finance is only one part of that obligation.


Children are scavenging out of bins Goblin, 90,000 are homeless. 3 million people are using foodbanks. 13 million people are in dire poverty - half of them working.

People are *dying/committing suicide* because the benefits they NEEDED have been withdrawn.

[youtube_browser]/OB3dQQADmBc[/youtube_browser]

I would rather the few taking the pi$$ have their TV's/get away with it - than one person die or one child suffer.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> But we don't have a bottomless pit of money. To look after all the vulnerable and needy people we need to make savings elsewhere and not be the go to place for welfare/benefits/NHS treatment for anyone in the world to come and abuse.


If the government made it illegal for corporations to avoid paying taxes & claimed back lost taxes, there would be plenty of money for the NHS & the welfare budget.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Children are scavenging out of bins Goblin, 90,000 are homeless. 3 million people are using foodbanks. 13 million people are in dire poverty - half of them working.
> 
> People are *dying/committing suicide* because the benefits they NEEDED have been withdrawn.
> 
> ...


The British govt; Finding more and more ways to kill off the poor and the more vulnerable.:angry:

Demonising the impoverished and the destitute will achieve nothing except perhaps see the resurrection of extermination camps.:sad:

Admittedly that sounds too extreme to be considered a rational thought but if you look across the the length and breadth of the UK you will find it already has far too many ghetto-like areas.:sad:

Noush, I highlighted your last statement because I share that very same sentiment but particularly with reference to the child.

Childhood belongs to children it is theirs and theirs alone and no man or woman has the God given right to deprive them of it.
I would rather a poor man steal a toy for his child than a poor man see his child go without one for a bírthday or Christmas present.

Britain today eh.

The return to Dickensian times.:crying:


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Zaros said:


> The British govt; Finding more and more ways to kill off the poor and the more vulnerable.:angry:
> 
> Demonising the impoverished and the destitute will achieve nothing except perhaps see the resurrection of extermination camps.:sad:
> 
> ...


But I also feel very strongly that it's the responsibility of adults to ensure, within all possible ways, that they have the right situation in which to have children and a support network for the bad times so that children can enjoy their childhood.


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

When times are hard, it is so easy to find a scapegoat. In the 1930s in Germany, it was the Jews. In Britain nowadays, it is the immigrants and the benefits claimants. This is scary to say the least.
Most people in this country grow up without being educated about what it means to be a citizen. We have rights and responsibilities. They go hand in hand.
The people in charge do what they want because we let them. We moan about this and that but when it comes to go on strike or work to rules, we seem that we don't have the courage of our opinions.
I am an immigrant myself from a country well know for its strikes. The government in France does what it is told because we are the government in essence. We don't like something? We are in the streets en force. It works. 
I am quite tired of the moaning about the government here. You don't like it then get together and do something about it!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ladydog said:


> When times are hard, it is so easy to find a scapegoat. In the 1930s in Germany, it was the Jews. In Britain nowadays, it is the immigrants and the benefits claimants. This is scary to say the least.
> Most people in this country grow up without being educated about what it means to be a citizen. We have rights and responsibilities. They go hand in hand.
> The people in charge do what they want because we let them. We moan about this and that but when it comes to go on strike or work to rules, we seem that we don't have the courage of our opinions.
> I am an immigrant myself from a country well know for its strikes. The government in France does what it is told because we are the government in essence. We don't like something? We are in the streets en force. It works.
> I am quite tired of the moaning about the government here. You don't like it then get together and do something about it!


*The days of people standing together in the UK have well gone. imo.
I would love to see more people going on strike and protesting. It's what this country needs.*


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ladydog said:


> When times are hard, it is so easy to find a scapegoat. In the 1930s in Germany, it was the Jews. In Britain nowadays, it is the immigrants and the benefits claimants. This is scary to say the least.
> Most people in this country grow up without being educated about what it means to be a citizen. We have rights and responsibilities. They go hand in hand.
> The people in charge do what they want because we let them. We moan about this and that but when it comes to go on strike or work to rules, we seem that we don't have the courage of our opinions.
> I am an immigrant myself from a country well know for its strikes. The government in France does what it is told because we are the government in essence. We don't like something? We are in the streets en force. It works.
> I am quite tired of the moaning about the government here. You don't like it then get together and do something about it!


*BRAVO! *


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Tax cuts for the rich austerity for the rest of us. Corporations & the super rich allowed to avoid & evade paying their taxes. The wealthiest in society claiming benefits - the poorest having their benefits slashed or removed.


Although the recent changes to stamp duty penalised the rich far greater than the rest of us so credit where credit is due.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> But I also feel very strongly that it's the responsibility of adults to ensure, within all possible ways, that they have the right situation in which to have children and a support network for the bad times so that children can enjoy their childhood.


I agree - before my parents had me they made sure they had a stable income, savings and a house, but far too many people just seem to think they should be able to have as many kids as they like and the rest of us pay for it. As with a pet, should youy really be having one if you can't afford to look after it?

I also find those figures very hard to believe as well. 13 million (so about 1 in every 5) in dire poverty? I doubt it. Unless they mean people on minimum wage, in which case I would be amongst them


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Why should my taxes pay for millionaire MP's expenses?


As I thought no answer.



> How have you jumped to this conclusion again? lol That is not whats being said at all.


No, that is what you are saying.. steal from "rich" although you can't define rich other than having more by X amount and give to "poor" which also can't be defined as it's really anyone "less well off". Simpler though to simply draw imaginary lines you are nowhere near. Earn 1p more than someone else and you are rich in comparison.



> Children are scavenging out of bins Goblin, 90,000 are homeless. 3 million people are using foodbanks. 13 million people are in dire poverty - half of them working.


Just as people accuse the media of targetting the poor and immigration we have the other side sensationalising the other side, never admitting there are problems at BOTH ends of the rich/poor divide.

As for suicide, how many people commit suicide due to work pressures? According to TUC, stress tops the workplace concerns of union health and safety reps. Why should anyone bother then with work when we all "have the right" to be all the benefits of working?

You have consistently avoided answering the simple question a lot of "middle class" people need an answer to. Why should they support with their hard work a lifestyle of non work people choose. Benefits for those who NEED NOT CHOOSE. Since you ignore the following I point it out again, this isn't simply media sensationalism, people have personal experience with it.


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## evel-lin (Jul 1, 2010)

I think it's easier for people to believe that it's the poor's fault they have no money and that if they just worked hard they'd be rich. Much more comfortable to live with than realising that a lot of success is down to luck.

I agree there are too many people on benefits. I would rather they had the opportunity to earn at least the living wage if not more and for companies to pay their employees a decent salary rather than expecting the state to make up the shortfall. If less people then needed to claim benefits such as for reasons of unemployment or illness then those people could be paid a bit more and have a better quality of life rather than being judged on the size of their tv's or what food they eat.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

negative creep said:


> I agree - before my parents had me they made sure they had a stable income, savings and a house, but far too many people just seem to think they should be able to have as many kids as they like and the rest of us pay for it. As with a pet, should youy really be having one if you can't afford to look after it?


*One of my near neighbours age 42 has a ten year old boy. Her husband I am informed by neighbours is permanently disabled 'with his back' and has been for the last twenty years.He walks at a pace that is closer to jogging and has a nice little number maintaining gardens on the side. He has recently purchased a Honda dirt bike and his son has a miniature version of the same.

Last week she had another baby boy,and he informs me that 'we are hoping the next will be a girl'

Maybe not typical of those on benefits....but there are many that know how to play the system like a violin.*


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

poohdog said:


> *One of my near neighbours age 42 has a ten year old boy. Her husband I am informed by neighbours is permanently disabled 'with his back' and has been for the last twenty years.He walks at a pace that is closer to jogging and has a nice little number maintaining gardens on the side. He has recently purchased a Honda dirt bike and his son has a miniature version of the same.
> 
> Last week she had another baby boy,and he informs me that 'we are hoping the next will be a girl'
> 
> Maybe not typical of those on benefits....but there are many that know how to play the system like a violin.*


If you have evidence he's faking and working cash in hand I bet the DWP would be interested to hear from you.........


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

It's not always how much you have but what you do with it, some folk would rather feed their phones than their kids.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> But I also feel very strongly that it's the responsibility of adults to ensure, within all possible ways, that they have the right situation in which to have children and a support network for the bad times so that children can enjoy their childhood.


Of course it's the responsibility of the adult and the vast majority of people do bring children into this world responsibly.

But there are times when even the most responsible of us can be irresponsible.

And I'm not talking about those who conceive a child as a direct result of a drunken Saturday night sh4g.

Moving to where the work is might involve moving far away from family which means having to distance yourself from that support network. Is this considered an irresponsible decision?

What if you or your partner don't have a family and the convenience of that 'support network' would it then be considered irresponsible to have children?

Somewhere I see people imposed with restrictions and denied the freedom of choice as a consequence?.


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *The days of people standing together in the UK have well gone. imo.
> I would love to see more people going on strike and protesting. It's what this country needs.*


It is a sad reality indeed that in the UK, people don't have the sense of getting together and showing their anger.:cursing:


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

ladydog said:


> When times are hard, it is so easy to find a scapegoat. In the 1930s in Germany, it was the Jews. In Britain nowadays, it is the immigrants and the benefits claimants. This is scary to say the least.
> Most people in this country grow up without being educated about what it means to be a citizen. We have rights and responsibilities. They go hand in hand.
> The people in charge do what they want because we let them. We moan about this and that but when it comes to go on strike or work to rules, we seem that we don't have the courage of our opinions.
> I am an immigrant myself from a country well know for its strikes. The government in France does what it is told because we are the government in essence. We don't like something? We are in the streets en force. It works.
> I am quite tired of the moaning about the government here. You don't like it then get together and do something about it!





JANICE199 said:


> *The days of people standing together in the UK have well gone. imo.
> I would love to see more people going on strike and protesting. It's what this country needs.*





ladydog said:


> It is a sad reality indeed that in the UK, people don't have the sense of getting together and showing their anger.:cursing:


Because it doesnt work here. That much was clear when the people protested about the war in iraq and were ignored.

It seemed bad at the time, but now it seems even worse with hindsight, because not only were the people ignored, it also killed off any hope of getting things done via peaceful protest.

Peaceful protest over here is just a way for the goverment to avoid confrontation... "sure let them have their little protest! they'll think they're making a difference, then once their desire to buck against our evil has been sated, we'll just carry on doing what we want"

The only thing left for us to do now is to take OUR power back by force. Noone wants it, and i imagine thats why nothing has really happened yet.. but it's gonna happen, and the sooner the better.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

porps said:


> Because it doesnt work here. That much was clear when the people protested about the war in iraq and were ignored.
> 
> It seemed bad at the time, but now it seems even worse with hindsight, because not only were the people ignored, it also killed off any hope of getting things done via peaceful protest.
> 
> ...


*I'm afraid i think i agree with you here.^^^
I don't want to see violence on our streets, but i wonder just how far the British public will be pushed.
The sad fact is, the people will probably turn on each other.*


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm afraid i think i agree with you here.^^^
> I don't want to see violence on our streets, but i wonder just how far the British public will be pushed.
> The sad fact is, the people will probably turn on each other.*


[youtube_browser]kkyTdhTr7PA[/youtube_browser]​
It will always be taken over by those with no interest in "the cause". It's their right after all, they deserve new trainers. It's not simply about rich vs poor, it's the attitude that possessions = everything and people deserve what others have. If basic needs are covered people need to work towards a better society not look at the green grass over the fence.

France disposed of it's aristocracy.. simply to simply replace it with another different one. That's what always happens.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm afraid i think i agree with you here.^^^
> I don't want to see violence on our streets, but i wonder just how far the British public will be pushed.
> The sad fact is, the people will probably turn on each other.*


when the time comes, if people want to line up against us... i'm fine with that, it's their funeral.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

ladydog said:


> I am an immigrant myself from a country well know for its strikes. The government in France does what it is told because we are the government in essence. We don't like something? We are in the streets en force. It works.
> I am quite tired of the moaning about the government here. You don't like it then get together and do something about it!


The French Government are ever remindided about the storming of the Bastille 

I was amongst the anti-war protesters before we went into Iraq 750,000 of us marched past parliament. Nothing changed. I was in the 2011 Anti cuts protest (against public spending cuts) where nearly 500,000 of us marched through London. Nothing was done. I was in the recent Monster march and I've been in numerous rallies to try and stop meat animals being shipped on the hoof.

People do go out and march, protest and rally against things they feel strongly about. The problem is, not enough people feel strongly enough to make a stance. If Britain stood up as a whole then yes, our government would have to make changes. Sadly that will never happen.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Goblin said:


> [youtube_browser]kkyTdhTr7PA[/youtube_browser]​
> It will always be taken over by those with no interest in "the cause". It's their right after all, they deserve new trainers. It's not simply about rich vs poor, it's the attitude that possessions = everything and people deserve what others have. If basic needs are covered people need to work towards a better society not look at the green grass over the fence.
> 
> France disposed of it's aristocracy.. simply to simply replace it with another different one. That's what always happens.


*Love the video, sums up what i thought.
I'm beginning to think we have lost our way, and there's no turning back. I wonder were it all went so wrong.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

porps said:


> when the time comes, if people want to line up against us... i'm fine with that, it's their funeral.


*Who do you mean by " us" ?*


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *Love the video, sums up what i thought.
> I'm beginning to think we have lost our way, and there's no turning back. I wonder were it all went so wrong.*


the hippies got older, their counter culture became part of the establishment, and they all got into materialism and status

just look at the Green Party

they used to be cool

when I was at school in the 80's, we had this teacher into the ecology party.
at that stage the ecology party were known as beardy weirdos, and to be fair, this teacher was a beardy, and we thought he was a weirdo. but at the same time he appeared to be the only one that kind of new what it was all about and how its gonna go to pot.
then Joschka Fischer of the german greens got the job as deputy leader of germany and the euro greens sucked up the tit of the EU, and the ecology party thought 'ummmm, i'll have some of that'.
so they sold out their environmental localism principles and got nice suits and 'status' in brussels, joining up with an organisation thats all about big roads, big trucks, big ships, big building, big production, big consumption, big 'growth', and big business.

thats one example for you.
if the Green were to re-find their morals and go back to their original and correct environmental principles, they'd attract up eurosceptic voices too. They'd do even better than they are now. Id certainly vote for them, but cant do all the time they collude with one of the organisations designed to put capitalism before the planet


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *Love the video, sums up what i thought.
> I'm beginning to think we have lost our way, and there's no turning back. I wonder were it all went so wrong.*


Lady Thatcher?!?!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Lady Thatcher?!?!


*Now to be totally honest, i like to blame Thatcher for a lot of things. But, i believe us parents have a lot to answer for.
We thought we would give our kids the things we didn't have. Then they had kids and did the same. Easy come, easy go. Perhaps that's part of the problem.*


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Who do you mean by " us" ?*


sorry, i didnt mean us as in me and you.... i just meant the people i'll be standing with. The people who are sick of the lies and the corruption and the misdirection and the greed. the people who are gonna finally break this system down. If you saw the million mask march you saw how many people there are waiting for the time to do just that... itching for it.

It's gone on too long. They made us, they forced our hand. We're just products of their society, we are everywhere and we cant be stopped.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm afraid i think i agree with you here.^^^
> I don't want to see violence on our streets*


Then the people will just have to storm parliament and let the bloodshed spill out there.

It's frustrating to realise that the only time the British public unite is November 5th when they light fires, let off fireworks and burn an effigy of Guy Fawkes.

This age old tradition is to celebrate the one and only time the British government ever found weapons of mass destruction.

I think this particular period in time will go down in history as the Irony age.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Then the people will just have to storm parliament and let the bloodshed spill out there.
> 
> It's frustrating to realise that the only time the British public unite is November 5th when they light fires, let off fireworks and burn an effigy of Guy Fawkes.
> 
> ...


*I wonder how things would have been, had guy falkes succeeded.*


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I wonder how things would have been, had guy falkes succeeded.*


We would have had a Catholic monarchy instead of a Protestant one


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Sadly, peaceful protests dont seem to do anything. No one cares. They happen weekly around parliament so is part of the furniture. 

The ones that get noticed are the messy ones, and even they dont work... but I feel that the fighting comes from frustration at feeling powerless and muted. As MLK said "A riot is the language of the unheard" (He also said "Riots are self defeating and socially destructive")

Scroobius Pip wrote a song called "Stiff upper lip" about the london riots a few years ago, and I think it explains the mentality well. Not that I agree, or condone it...its just a good example.


So where do we go from here? The world we live in is corrupt, run by the rich for the rich, but how do we change it? I dont know the answer...


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Lady Thatcher?!?!


Tony Blair??


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

[youtube_browser]fMKsR_wUSfA[/youtube_browser]​
For those who remember it, especially the gnomes and the ending.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Although the recent changes to stamp duty penalised the rich far greater than the rest of us so credit where credit is due.


There aren't many other areas the rich are disadvantaged. The rich have seen income tax cuts while for the rest its been pay freezes, pension & benefit cuts. Consumption taxes, like VAT hit ordinary people harder as well, due to ordinary people having to spend all/much of what they earn to pay bills, while the wealthy have surplus income to save.

This is so wrong ~

Wealth of Britain's richest 1,000 people hits new high of £519bn

'Astonishing' year for richest Britons sees fortunes rise 15.4%, according to Sunday Times Rich List.

_ Government figures showed last week that Britain's richest 1% had accumulated as much wealth as the poorest 55% put together. The data also revealed the extent of the inequality across the north-south divide, with household wealth in the south-east rising five times as quickly as the country's as a whole.

Rachael Orr, head of Oxfam's UK poverty programme, said: "We need our politicians to grasp the nettle and make narrowing the gap between the richest and poorest a top priority. It cannot be right that in Britain today a small elite are getting richer and richer while hundreds of thousands rely on food banks to feed their families. There is money to help the poorest  we just need to ensure that the richest are not only asked to pay their fair share in tax but also that the loopholes that allow many to dodge their obligations are closed."
_

Wealth of Britain's richest 1,000 people hits new high of Â£519bn | Business | theguardian.com



Goblin said:


> As I thought no answer.
> 
> The point I was making is we cannot pick & choose exactly where our taxes go. Do bare in mind though, that benefit fraud is £1.9bn while UNCLAIMED benefits come to £16bn - that more than cancels out any of your taxes which may have gone to fraudsters with TV's (I always thought you were in Germany anyway? )
> 
> ...


Hard work?? It must be absolutely back breaking getting tax breaks, evading & avoiding paying taxes.



Tails and Trails said:


> _from _the sixties, not_ in_ the 1960's - how it developed.
> the absence of these things in the former is what drove the debt fueled consumerist aspiration from the latter, to the present day.
> everyone knows this has now costed the future, including the environment
> that central point is pretty much accepted now
> ...


The insatiable greed began in the 1980's with the neoliberal ideology.



ThelifeofPi said:


> I find this increasingly alarming.
> I have a really good book called "Chavs" by a young author called Owen Jones. Its about the demonization of the British poor; a campaign that takes the working class eye away from the real goings on within the big establishment.


I bought my cousin-in-law the Establishment for his birthday - Hes getting Chavs for his Christmas prezzy. Great books, Owen Jones is brilliant, hes certainly opened my eyes.



Zaros said:


> The British govt; Finding more and more ways to kill off the poor and the more vulnerable.:angry:
> 
> Demonising the impoverished and the destitute will achieve nothing except perhaps see the resurrection of extermination camps.:sad:
> 
> ...


This govt doesn't care. If it did they wouldn't have fought through the courts to remove the Independent Living Fund. This money is paid to severely disabled people so that they can live an independent life. The government won, what will happen to these vulnerable people now??

I know how you feel about the children Zaros. I am so upset & horrified that tens of thousands are being made to suffer - and its so unnecessary.

We are definitely going backwards . This is the longest sustained decline in most peoples standard of living since records began  you have to go back to the 1870s to find anything similar. And soon we wont have a NHS or the safety net of the welfare state - things are set to get a whole lot worse.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *But there can only be one direction to point the finger. Let me ask you this.
> If you employed a body of people to look after your affairs, and they didn't look after your interests, what would you do? Or if they were made rich at your expense?
> People forget, our governments are supposed to work for us, and that includes taking our welfare into account.
> *


Like I said, there are many causes for the state of affairs at the moment.

Successive Governments have made huge mistakes and bad decisions. But, we have to choose from a bad bunch.

Some individuals have borrowed more than they can afford, continue to spend their money unwisely, have more children etc. (Some - not all.)

Some people have worked hard and made provision and still find themselves up a creek without a paddle.

Again - like I say - no ONE thing is to blame. We can't blame "the Government" for everything.


----------



## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> But, we have to choose from a bad bunch.


No, we dont. We can say "no more".


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Lady Thatcher?!?!





rottiepointerhouse said:


> Tony Blair??


Maggie once said Tony Blair was her greatest achievement. He bought into her neoliberal agenda.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

porps said:


> No, we dont. We can say "no more".


Really? How?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

porps said:


> No, we dont. We can say "no more".


So your solution is protests and riots? It's all well and good having that kind of bravado until it becomes reality, then trust me it's not all its cut out to be! 40 years of saying " no more" haven't made things any better over here except now ex terrorists are in power. ....and those who just want to go about making a living get mighty p'd off with those who want their "peaceful protests" because in their belief they can change it all they normally make life harder for those who are struggling to make a better life for themselves and not expecting others to do it for them. Irrespective of who is in power there will always be those who struggle, then there will always be those who need help but slip through the cracks, those who do nothing and thing the world owes them a favour and those who put their heads down and get on with it! Protests riots etc do nothing for anyone! And most who get involved don't give a fiddler's about the issues the are "protesting" about......


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

stop living by their rules. stop reading their media. Stop letting them dictate to you what you can or cant do. stop paying them your money, stop consuming, stop being submissive. above all, stop being content to choose from a bad bunch.. if thats how you feel, choose not to choose. Or choose to fight against the bad bunch, all of them. It's not about parties, theyre all the same at the end of the day. 

i dont have all the answers but i know one thing.. im done with the way things are atm. I'm 100% outside of their society now.
I never consented to being governed, did you?

We can fight back, but they've been keeping us down for so long that people seem to have forgotton.

This is our world, time we took it back.

I'm not alone.
We are legion.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Meezey said:


> So your solution is protests and riots? It's all well and good having that kind of bravado until it becomes reality, then trust me it's not all its cut out to be! 40 years of saying " no more" haven't made things any better over here except now ex terrorists are in power. ....and those who just want to go about making a living get mighty p'd off with those who want their "peaceful protests" because in their belief they can change it all they normally make life harder for those who are struggling to make a better life for themselves and not expecting others to do it for them. Irrespective of who is in power there will always be those who struggle, then there will always be those who need help but slip through the cracks, those who do nothing and thing the world owes them a favour and those who put their heads down and get on with it! Protests riots etc do nothing for anyone! And most who get involved don't give a fiddler's about the issues the are "protesting" about......


you see --- submissive... they have you convinced that you ahve to accept the way things are.. you dont.. wake up and take your power back.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

porps said:


> stop living by their rules. stop reading their media. Stop letting them dictate to you what you can or cant do. stop paying them your money, stop consuming, stop being submissive. above all, stop being content to choose from a bad bunch.. if thats how you feel, choose not to choose. Or choose to fight against the bad bunch, all of them. It's not about parties, theyre all the same at the end of the day.
> 
> i dont have all the answers but i know one thing.. im done with the way things are atm. I'm 100% outside of their society now.
> I never consented to being governed, did you?
> ...


How do we fight back? How do we take our World back?

Are you seriously suggesting that there should be no Government of any kind?

What do you mean by "stop paying them your money"?

I assume you mean stop paying taxes. Well, last time I checked, you can go to prison for that and also, where would those who are claiming benefits be if everyone stopped paying taxes?


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

porps said:


> i dont have all the answers but i know one thing.. im done with the way things are atm. I'm 100% outside of their society now.
> 
> .


How have you managed that?

I've got out as much as I can but I'm still at the mercy of big business


----------



## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Sweety said:


> How do we fight back? How do we take our World back?
> 
> Are you seriously suggesting that there should be no Government of any kind?


i'm suggesting that it would be a damn sight better than a goverment of this kind.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

porps said:


> you see --- submissive... they have you convinced that you ahve to accept the way things are.. you dont.. wake up and take your power back.


Porps I live in Northern Ireland! Come live here for a bit, then you can tell me what you think about me! Until you have lived through it don't try and tell me about things YOU have no experience of.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

rona said:


> How have you managed that?
> 
> I've got out as much as I can but I'm still at the mercy of big business


well maybe not 100%.. i still pay for my internet, and the catfood i buy is taxed. but as much as possible, and ever increasing. I didnt "manage it"... it just happened.


----------



## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

Sweety said:


> How do we fight back? How do we take our World back?
> 
> Are you seriously suggesting that there should be no Government of any kind?
> 
> ...


I also assume those who don't want to pay taxes do not want medical care, water, electricty, public transport, rubbish collection, police, schools etc?


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

porps said:


> well maybe not 100%.. i still pay for my internet, and the catfood i buy is taxed. but as much as possible, and ever increasing. I didnt "manage it"... it just happened.


Got any tips?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

negative creep said:


> I also assume those who don't want to pay taxes do not want medical care, water, electricty, public transport, rubbish collection, police, schools etc?


Last I knew we already pay for water, electricity and public transport outside our taxes anyway


----------



## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Porps I live in Northern Ireland! Come live here for a bit, then you can tell me what you think about me! Until you have lived through it don't try and tell me about things YOU have no experience of.


Thank you for the invitation but i must decline. I do think it's interesting that you dont like me making assumptions about you, but you are quite prepared to assume what i have experience of and what i do not.

If you are happy being governed, keep buying into their system. I'm not, so i wont.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

If we all want to live in a relatively civilised society, with water, sanitation, transport, education, health care, etc. then I don't seen a viable alternative to the current, albeit flawed, system.

Anarchy is not the answer 

We all saw what happens when the populace "take control" in the recent riots in London where shops were looted and houses set on fire - no thanks.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

porps said:


> Thank you for the invitation but i must decline. I do think it's interesting that you dont like me making assumptions about you, but you are quite prepared to assume what i have experience of and what i do not.
> 
> If you are happy being governed, keep buying into their system. I'm not, so i wont.


So you grow all your own food, don't have water or electric, are of no fixed abode, have no Internet, phone, don't have a doctor, don't work buy no clothes or stuff for your cats?don't pay for medical treatment for your cats? Don't drive or use public transport!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

porps said:


> Thank you for the invitation but i must decline. I do think it's interesting that you dont like me making assumptions about you, but you are quite prepared to assume what i have experience of and what i do not.
> 
> If you are happy being governed, keep buying into their system. I'm not, so i wont.


So is it a safe assumption that you don't pay tax or abide by any of the laws in this Country?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> If we all want to live in a relatively civilised society, with water, sanitation, transport, education, health care, etc. then I don't seen a viable alternative to the current, albeit flawed, system.
> 
> Anarchy is not the answer
> 
> We all saw what happens when the populace "take control" in the recent riots in London where shops were looted and houses set on fire - no thanks.


Awk but porps has been invited here to witness first hand when people protest and tell the government no, but they have declined think the ideas great but they don't want to witness the reality


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sweety said:


> So is it a safe assumption that you don't pay tax or abide by any of the laws in this Country?


That's a rather big assumption. I don't assume that from the posts at all


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

porps said:


> stop living by their rules. stop reading their media. Stop letting them dictate to you what you can or cant do. stop paying them your money, stop consuming, stop being submissive. above all, stop being content to choose from a bad bunch.. if thats how you feel, choose not to choose. Or choose to fight against the bad bunch, all of them. It's not about parties, theyre all the same at the end of the day.
> 
> i dont have all the answers but i know one thing.. im done with the way things are atm. I'm 100% outside of their society now.
> I never consented to being governed, did you?
> ...


My assumption was based on this. "Stop paying them your money". If I've misunderstood, I would be happy to be told what this means.


----------



## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

rona said:


> Last I knew we already pay for water, electricity and public transport outside our taxes anyway


speak for yourself.

pick a piece of paper up off the floor stare directly into the drivers eyes as you board the bus.. you'd be suprised, most dont even look at the ticket. was even easier when i had the mohawk. I might get a face tattoo, i bet that garuntees free transport.

wire your electric

dont pay for your water, water is a basic human right, they cant cut you off (or so i read)... send them a letter asking them to provide you with the contract you signed. I've been here 4 or 5 years, never payed em a penny. I never asked them to pump water into my flat in the first place.

i was reading an article about that just the other day but cant for the life of me find it now... but essentially if they cant provide a contract with your "wet ink signature" you owe them nothing. if i find it i'll pm it to you. Theres loads of little loopholes we can use, but they dont want us to know them ofc.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Sweety said:


> So is it a safe assumption that you don't pay tax or abide by any of the laws in this Country?


i abide by some laws, but not BECAUSE they are law. If i abide by a law it's because i feel thats the right way to behave, not cos someone told me to. Theres many laws i dont abide by too.

Also, i dont know how i am expected to pay tax, when i have an income of 0.

So no, i dont.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sweety said:


> My assumption was based on this. "Stop paying them your money". If I've misunderstood, I would be happy to be told what this means.


No you didn't misunderstand... Makes me laugh...


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

porps said:


> speak for yourself.
> 
> pick a piece of paper up off the floor stare directly into the drivers eyes as you board the bus.. you'd be suprised, most dont even look at the ticket. was even easier when i had the mohawk. I might get a face tattoo, i bet that garuntees free transport.
> 
> ...


Water is a basic human right if you go and drink it out of a stream or puddle.

If you want the convenience of having it piped into your home, you're supposed to pay for it.

I don't know why you're bragging about that. It's stealing.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

porps said:


> i abide by some laws, but not BECAUSE they are law. If i abide by a law it's because i feel thats the right way to behave, not cos someone told me to. Theres many laws i dont abide by too.
> 
> Also, i dont know how i am expected to pay tax, when i have an income of 0.
> 
> So no, i dont.


So who pays for your internet? Roof over your head? Your food? Your cats food? Your medical care if needed? Your cats vet treatment? Or do you steal that too?


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Anarchy is not the answer


How do you know?

How do you know that the current system is the only one that can work if you wont try anythign else. Anarchy doesnt mean civil war, it doesnt mean every man to themselves. The word has been bastardised by people who dont want you to consider an alternative to them having all the power and the vast majority of the wealth.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Meezey said:


> So who pays for your internet? Roof over your head? Your food? Your cats food? Your medical care if needed? Your cats vet treatment? Or do you steal that too?


i take everything now, they've left me no choice but to take everything.. or starve.. and allow my cats to starve.. well im starving anyway tbh, but my cats never will while i can still draw breath.

Why cant i take it? who says i cant? whos gonna stop me? **** em and their laws.. and **** anyone who doubts me


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

porps said:


> speak for yourself.
> 
> pick a piece of paper up off the floor stare directly into the drivers eyes as you board the bus.. you'd be suprised, most dont even look at the ticket. was even easier when i had the mohawk. I might get a face tattoo, i bet that garuntees free transport.
> 
> ...


Thankfully, the majority of mankind don't have the same ideas as you 

If more people take to behaving as you suggest - we are on the way to hell in a handcart - let's hope you remain in the minority.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

porps said:


> i take everything now, they've left me no choice but to take everything.. or starve.. and allow my cats to starve.. well im starving anyway tbh, but my cats never will while i can still draw breath.
> 
> Why cant i take it? who says i cant? whos gonna stop me? **** em and their laws


Hold on YOU have said yourself you make the choice yourself! You choose to steal you chose to not be submissive. Yet with all this you still manage internet access! There is standing up for what you believe and there is cutting your nose of to spite your face!


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

porps said:


> speak for yourself.
> 
> pick a piece of paper up off the floor stare directly into the drivers eyes as you board the bus.. you'd be suprised, most dont even look at the ticket. was even easier when i had the mohawk. I might get a face tattoo, i bet that garuntees free transport.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be able to do stuff like that I'm afraid. Too much of a wimp.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Thankfully, the majority of mankind don't have the same ideas as you
> 
> If more people take to behaving as you suggest - we are on the way to hell in a handcart - let's hope you remain in the minority.


I hope i remain in the minority too. I hope it never gets to the stage where the majority are forced into crime to be able to feed themselves.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

porps said:


> How do you know?
> 
> How do you know that the current system is the only one that can work if you wont try anythign else. Anarchy doesnt mean civil war, it doesnt mean every man to themselves. The word has been bastardised by people who dont want you to consider an alternative to them having all the power and the vast majority of the wealth.


Well, it seems to me that your 'system' is based on dishonesty and stealing.

Thankfully, the most of us don't stoop to that.

You can keep your system to yourself. I have no time for dishonesty.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Hold on YOU have said yourself you make the choice yourself! You choose to steal you chose to not be submissive. Yet with all this you still manage internet access! There is standing up for what you believe and there is cutting your nose of to spite your face!


I'm forced to steal. Internet access is my 1 luxury, a reward for the risks i have to take. If i didnt have internet, i would still have to steal to eat. But if it makes u feel any better, that will be cut off soon too, because i can afford it.

Happy?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2014)

porps said:


> i take everything now, they've left me no choice but to take everything.. or starve.. and allow my cats to starve.. well im starving anyway tbh, but my cats never will while i can still draw breath.
> 
> Why cant i take it? who says i cant? whos gonna stop me? **** em and their laws.. and **** anyone who doubts me


I know its a personal question, but... how old are you Porps?

In a serious reply to how one could go off grid, it is doable (without stealing) and actually not a bad idea for all of us to look in to being more self-sufficient.

OH and I have seriously looked in to ways we can use less electricity, grow or farm more of our own food, and adjust our well system so that it can work manually as well as electrically. 
Not for antigovernment reasons but simply being more responsible for ourselves reasons.

And that to me is a biggie. We like to blame, blame, blame everyone and anyone but the buck really does stop with each individual.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Sweety said:


> Well, it seems to me that your 'system' is based on dishonesty and stealing.
> 
> Thankfully, the most of us don't stoop to that.
> 
> You can keep your system to yourself. I have no time for dishonesty.


i dont care what you have time for. I have no time for starving to death. And it isnt MY system that creates people like me. i was created by THEIR system.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

porps said:


> I hope i remain in the minority too. I hope it never gets to the stage where the majority are forced into crime to be able to feed themselves.





porps said:


> I'm forced to steal. Internet access is my 1 luxury, a reward for the risks i have to take. If i didnt have internet, i would still have to steal to eat. But if it makes u feel any better, that will be cut off soon too, because i can afford it.
> 
> Happy?





porps said:


> i dont care what you have time for. I have no time for starving to death. And it isnt MY system that creates people like me. i was created by THEIR system.


Are you going to be ok?


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

porps said:


> I hope i remain in the minority too. I hope it never gets to the stage where the majority are forced into crime to be able to feed themselves.


Very sad if you are truly starving! Can you not claim benefits? Im sure you must be entitled to something.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

porps said:


> I'm forced to steal. Internet access is my 1 luxury, a reward for the risks i have to take. If i didnt have internet, i would still have to steal to eat. But if it makes u feel any better, that will be cut off soon too, because i can afford it.
> 
> Happy?


aw I'm so sorry you're having it so tough, have you tried contacting your citizens advice Porps?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> I wouldn't be able to do stuff like that I'm afraid. Too much of a wimp.


Neither would I, it's not right


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

porps said:


> i take everything now, they've left me no choice but to take everything.. or starve.. and allow my cats to starve.. well im starving anyway tbh, but my cats never will while i can still draw breath.
> 
> Why cant i take it? who says i cant? whos gonna stop me? **** em and their laws.. and **** anyone who doubts me


Someone has to pay for it - not everyone is rich either - just paying our way.

If you really are struggling to survive then I hope you can get some realistic help.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

And this is exactly what is happening outside in RL, and what was mentioned earlier in the thread. People being tough on each other instead of tough on the causes of crime.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

ouesi said:


> In a serious reply to how one could go off grid, it is doable (without stealing) and actually not a bad idea for all of us to look in to being more self-sufficient.


I don't believe stealing is about being self sufficient. I won't condemn Porps because I have no idea about his/her circumstances.

Some years ago, the disillusioned us (my partner and me) sold our house in suburbia along with our cars and furniture. We paid off our debts and put our remaining funds into our banks. We moved onto our 55ft boat, installed a water converter, solar panels and a decent wind generator before setting sail and leaving this small island. The wind was what moved us and provided us with electricity, along with the solar panels and we converted sea water into fresh water. We lived off the grid for almost two years and we had a fantastic adventure. One of the things that surprised us was, so many others were doing the same. There really is an ocean of sea gypsies out their who work on exchange for work done. (We fix their engine, they buy us a weeks worth of food) The one thing we did do before embarking on our journey was take out a good insurance which covered us for rescue, boat damage/salvage and medical costs.

We are a bit nuts though. Prior to that we lived for six months in a north American Indian tepee and I have to say, that was probably the best six months of my life.

Yes you can come off the grid but its a brave move that has to be planned down to the last detail because things can go terribly wrong. It obviously helps if you have some funds behind you too.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2014)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I don't believe stealing is about being self sufficient. I won't condemn Porps because I have no idea about his/her circumstances.
> 
> Some years ago, the disillusioned us (my partner and me) sold our house in suburbia along with our cars and furniture. We paid off our debts and put our remaining funds into our banks. We moved onto our 55ft boat, installed a water converter, solar panels and a decent wind generator before setting sail and leaving this small island. The wind was what moved us and provided us with electricity, along with the solar panels and we converted sea water into fresh water. We lived off the grid for almost two years and we had a fantastic adventure. One of the things that surprised us was, so many others were doing the same. There really is an ocean of sea gypsies out their who work on exchange for work done. (We fix their engine, they buy us a weeks worth of food) The one thing we did do before embarking on our journey was take out a good insurance which covered us for rescue, boat damage/salvage and medical costs.
> 
> ...


This is actually one of the things OH and I are seriously looking in to for the future, and youre right, there are a lot of people out there doing the same and it seems like a really cool community 

But we were not averse to roughing it either - spent many a week roughing it in the mountains of Colorado and at one point attempted to downsize to being able to fit all our belongings in to a backpack. Then we got all civilized and got proper jobs and kids and a minivan. Bu the dream of one day downsizing back to one backpack each lives on!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Stealing in order to live is not condoned but I don't want this thread to decline into the same order of unpleasantness that got it closed in the first place.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

porps said:


> I'm forced to steal. Internet access is my 1 luxury, a reward for the risks i have to take. If i didnt have internet, i would still have to steal to eat. But if it makes u feel any better, that will be cut off soon too, because i can afford it.
> 
> Happy?


As well as CAB that has ready been mentioned have you contacted Shelter? I'm not sure of your age, but the Salvation Army would help as well if needed.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

porps despite what was said, I hope you get some help. I wondered if you have a Transition group in your area or a Lets scheme?

When I was trying to get myself back on my feet I joining the group in Cambridge and traded creative skills, dog sitting, cat sitting and car washing for food including eggs and veg, plants. Here's the UK link:

LETS Link UK: Homepage


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> porps despite what was said, I hope you get some help. I wondered if you have a Transition group in your area or a Lets scheme?
> 
> When I was trying to get myself back on my feet I joining the group in Cambridge and traded creative skills, dog sitting, cat sitting and car washing for food including eggs and veg, plants. Here's the UK link:
> 
> LETS Link UK: Homepage


brilliant news to hear LETS schemes are still running

i remember during blair's years that became the new spoken about thing.
yet members of the cabinet (labour, no less) slated them as it meant 'less tax'.
i kind of assumed that some t.wat had found a way to pass a law against them?
wouldnt do to popularise something outside of the consumerist mainstream, would it?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> brilliant news to hear LETS schemes are still running
> 
> i remember during blair's years that became the new spoken about thing.
> yet members of the cabinet (labour, no less) slated them as it meant 'less tax'.
> ...


The one in Cambridge went a bit upper middle class albeit it's going in a smaller way now, I think lots have closed but many of those same people are involving in making us a transition city. Lets was a huge help to me at the time and taught me many ways to save money and resources from growing my own veg and I got my first slow cooker through it in exchange for making wedding invites!


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Wow seems like this thread has derailed slightly from Zaros' first post!! 

My two cents on this is that at the end of the day, the benefits system is there for a good reason. I have no qualms about paying taxes to help those in need. 

I was raised to never judge a person. Who's to say the person who claims disability allowance but can walk down the street doesn't have a mental illness? Or who is to say the single mother is not feeling deep shame in claiming benefits for fear of being branded scum? I would never want to be labelled personally. 

But I guess to answer your question Zaros, there's nothing we can do. Whilst the system is bad and we are being abused by the rich and mighty, I do think the alternative (anarchy, dictatorship) would be much worse. All we can do is try to vote in the right people and be the best people we can be through humanitarian acts of kindness and generosity, whilst still looking out for our families.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

porps said:


> *Internet access is my 1 luxury,*


I'm just trying to catch up on this thread now it's reappeared but I'm a slow reader and in addition can't remember exactly where I was.

However, the above quote caught my attention. The government consider internet access to be an essential requirement of everyday living along with food, gas, electric and water.

Therefore it should not be regarded as a luxury.....along with food, gas, electric and water.

Right, I'm off to read some more.:001_smile:


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

These days I would certainly class the internet as an essential commodity


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

negative creep said:


> These days I would certainly class the internet as an essential commodity


In some ways yes but in a sense, is the internet partly responsible for reducing necessary social, face to face interaction? Does it simply help people create tunnel vision on important topics as any viewpoint can be supported with "evidence"? Are people being told how to think, rather than learning to reason and make their own choices?

The other thing to consider going back a way in this thread. Not every person on benefits is a scrounger. Then again, not everyone "rich" is a banker


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

porps said:


> I'm forced to steal. Internet access is my 1 luxury, a reward for the risks i have to take. If i didnt have internet, i would still have to steal to eat. But if it makes u feel any better, that will be cut off soon too, because i can afford it.
> 
> Happy?


No I am not happy. Why would I be happy? You portrayed it as something you chose to do to stick two fingers up at the government, nothing something you had no other option than to do! That is something totally different! Is there no where you can go for help?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Re Internet as a luxury: there are a whole lot of services that are cheaper online and built around the internet as first choice of communication. My elderly mother, hard of hearing and not tech savvy, has just moved house and I have had to do so much for her because modern business has evolved to be something that she can't use. I end up ringing the companies up and sitting in phone queues, because she can't necessarily make out what the person on the other end is saying (assuming we get that far). It takes hours to things you can do online in minutes. We have even had to (almost literally) beg the new branch of her bank to send her paper statements. Both she and I are really cross about this, because they all make her feel incompetent, and she is isn't. It has been a real eye-opener though - it is damn hard to live with out the net.


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Not having a go Porps ..... you take weed , do you pay for this ?


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

The JobCentre requires you to have some internet access really, as you cannot guarantee access every day at libraries and cafes to apply for jobs etc. 

There is no answer IMO, the 'average' person has very little control in reality


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I know its a personal question, but... how old are you Porps?


age is just a number but my number is 34.



rona said:


> Are you going to be ok?





Ang2 said:


> Very sad if you are truly starving! Can you not claim benefits? Im sure you must be entitled to something.





noushka05 said:


> aw I'm so sorry you're having it so tough, have you tried contacting your citizens advice Porps?





Jobeth said:


> As well as CAB that has ready been mentioned have you contacted Shelter? I'm not sure of your age, but the Salvation Army would help as well if needed.





MollySmith said:


> porps despite what was said, I hope you get some help. I wondered if you have a Transition group in your area or a Lets scheme?
> 
> When I was trying to get myself back on my feet I joining the group in Cambridge and traded creative skills, dog sitting, cat sitting and car washing for food including eggs and veg, plants. Here's the UK link:
> 
> LETS Link UK: Homepage


Thanks for being nice or trying help.. i'll be ok, i dunno why i was i was so crazed on that particular day.. combination of things, just ignore me i'm an idiot sometimes. Sorry for getting the thread closed...



Jellypi3 said:


> Whilst the system is bad and we are being abused by the rich and mighty, I do think the alternative (anarchy, dictatorship) would be much worse.


There are other systems.. the arguement for a resource based economy is quite a persuasive one to me. The venus project looks to me like the kind of thing that could well be worth pursuing.



tincan said:


> Not having a go Porps ..... you take weed , do you pay for this ?


i hardly smoke weed any more,but the weed i do smoke is that which is given to me.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

If you do need it here is a link to some of the services provided Homeless People section | The Salvation Army

I know it says for the homeless, but they do more than that.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I've noticed the subject of theft has been broached and did wonder how long it would be before that actually happened.:001_smile:

If parents isolated a child from the main body of the family. Locked that child in a room with a bucket no heating, no lighting and very little food that parent would be punished severely when their unspeakable crimes were finally exposed.

Yet, for all the world to see, here we have a band of highly paid thieves and liars who isolate untold numbers of people from society, force them to survive on a periodical and grossly inadequate sum of money and despite the crimes against their fellow man no one is taken to task.:confused1:

I'm not condoning all thefts but if people are forced to resort to stealing to survive they can hardly be punished for trying to survive by the only means left available to them.

A man, forced into homelessness, went into a charity shop one very cold and wet winter's morning and after explaining his situation asked the assistant if she would be kind enough to give him a coat to keep him warm. The assistant looked at the man incredulously, apologised, and then told him she wouldn't be allowed to do that.

He left the shop and headed for another second hand shop. Upon entry he outlined his predicamment once again and then asked the very same question. He was turned down a second time.

Leaving him with no other option the man then made his way towards a major department store where he believed the removal of a coat from the premises would be made much easier simply because there were more distractions.

The man liberated a fine garment and once outside he gave it to the young lad he had befriended who was dressed in no more than jeans and something that resembled a bomber jacket.

_'It's a dog eat dog world out there and you won't find me in a tin of chum.'_ The late Rik Mayall.

_
Goodnight and God bless to those who sought eternal sanctuary from the meanness of this life._


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

It is unbelievable that in 2014 in a so called civilised society that anyone should be forced to resort to stealing to survive.

However, the chap who ended up stealing the coat (albeit he passed it to someone in greater need) could probably have obtained one from somewhere if he had asked in the right place.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> However, the chap who ended up stealing the coat could probably have obtained one from somewhere if he had asked in the right place.


The man asked at the Charity Shop because he politely requested a little 'Charity' :001_smile:

Nothing more and nothing less.

Where, but at a 'Charity Shop' would one expect a little Charity?:001_tongue:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> I've noticed the subject of theft has been broached and did wonder how long it would be before that actually happened.:001_smile:
> 
> If parents isolated a child from the main body of the family. Locked that child in a room with a bucket no heating, no lighting and very little food that parent would be punished severely when their unspeakable crimes were finally exposed.
> 
> ...


LOL love the Rik Mayall quote

"Don't judge me until you've walked a mile in my shoes." I always think its important to bear this quote in mind.

.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> LOL love the Rik Mayall quote
> 
> *"Don't judge me until you've walked a mile in my shoes."* I always think its important to bear this quote in mind.
> 
> .


Precisely.

And as Einstein once said; _'The only source of true knowledge is experience.'_


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Alternative exist rather than stealing, even when not immediately obvious. I don't believe stealing is necessary in today's society. If ever it is required, then it's not down simply to "benefits and the state" but society failures as there should be multiple layers of protection, family, the local community and religious groups for example.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Zaros said:


> The man asked at the Charity Shop because he politely requested a little 'Charity' :001_smile:
> 
> Nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> Where, but at a 'Charity Shop' would one expect a little Charity?:001_tongue:


I know - it does seem a bit mad - but obviously, the staff at a charity shop do not have the authority to give away things that have been donated by the public for the benefit of that particular charity and it's particular cause.

On the other hand, if he had called into a "clothes bank" (if there were such a thing) one would hope that he would have been helped.

Actually, that is not such a bad idea.

Tons and tons of good, serviceable clothing is being collected by white vans all over the country (not by the charities who have put the collection bags through our letterboxes, unfortunately ) and then shipped out for commercial gain.

Shame that these clothes are not being directed towards the needy in this country.

I regularly take clothes to the charity shop for them to sell, but I would be equally happy to pass them on to a clothes bank for distribution to the needy in the UK.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Alternative exist rather than stealing, even when not immediately obvious. I don't believe stealing is necessary in today's society. If ever it is required, then it's not down simply to "benefits and the state" but society failures as there should be multiple layers of protection, family, the local community and religious groups for example.


There are also people who refuse all help that is offered to them.

I was watching a programme yesterday which was all about Oxford Street and a man was living on the high street, surrounded by piles of his belongings. He had been moved on countless times by the police, who eventually arrested him and took all his stuff in their van back to the police station.

Apparently, he had been offered several options of accommodation by various agencies, but he refused them all.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Alternative exist rather than stealing, even when not immediately obvious. *I don't believe stealing is necessary* in today's society. If ever it is required, then *it's not down* simply *to "benefits* *and the state" but society failures as there should be multiple layers of protection, family, the local community and religious groups* for example.


There is very little protection in certain areas and what might be set in place to help is not adequate enough. Until the state/society recognises its failures stealing to survive will continue to be a necessary evil.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

When I was working in a developing country it was in a 'compound' (hospital, rural education etc) surrounded by mud huts. Not once did anyone have an issue with anyone stealing even though we clearly had 'more' than those that lived there. A friend ended up in B&B accommodation sharing one room with 2 small children until given a council house. It wouldn't have crossed her mind either to do something wrong. 

Once you decide which people can follow the law and which can't you will have anarchy. That society will be even more unfair as only the strong will survive. I believe that the systems are in place (even if some might come from a charity) to support those that need it.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Jobeth said:


> When I was working in a developing country it was in a 'compound' (hospital, rural education etc) surrounded by mud huts. Not once did anyone have an issue with anyone stealing even though we clearly had 'more' than those that lived there. A friend ended up in B&B accommodation sharing one room with 2 small children until given a council house. It wouldn't have crossed her mind either to do something wrong.
> 
> Once you decide which people can follow the law and which can't you will have anarchy. That society will be even more unfair as only the strong will survive. I believe that the systems are in place (even if some might come from a charity) to support those that need it.


*I think we are seeing where only the strong and rich are surviving.*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

When you've got 90,000 homeless children, ex soldiers forced to live on the streets, children scavenging out of bins you know something is going seriously wrong with our society.

Ive just read this tweet from wonderful Harry Leslie Smith, a 91 year old war veteran who is fighting to save our NHS for future generations.

_A Gov that allow grotesque income inequality isn't a government for the people but an oligarchy of corporate self interest _#ConDemNation


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I think we are seeing where only the strong and rich are surviving.*


I don't think this is true at all? I'm not rich by any means, but I budget my money, I make sure my mortgage is paid, and then I budget the rest, I've been without a job, without food or heating at at risk of my house being repossessed. If I need to save money I would cut back on stuff. There are those who need help because they literally have no money, and there are those who need help to budget money, you don't have to be rich to survive ( as your definition of rich is more money than they can spend), there are people who could be given extra money, and they would stills struggle to survive no matter what the amount ..


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Zaros said:


> There is very little protection in certain areas and what might be set in place to help is not adequate enough. Until the state/society recognises its failures stealing to survive will continue to be a necessary evil.


Disagree that's it is a necessary evil as I believe it is currently simply an easy excuse.

It is everyone's responsibility to provide help, not simply shout it's the State's fault. Class divisions aside, it's true for all athough the "help" may change in nature and purpose. Going back to the original post. What is wrong.. we are quick to blame, not to act. Look through this thread and you'll see multiple examples where it's all X's fault.

Communities, one of the bedrocks of societies are not built by the state but by the people. With strong communities comes a sense of achievement and fulfillment. I've never seen money buy happiness. I have seen strong bonds between people contribute to that end.

Edit: I think as a race we are not an animal that does well in large groups. We do better in "tribal" situations, providing obviously those tribes aren't at war with one another.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Disagree that's it is a necessary evil as I believe it is currently simply an easy excuse.
> 
> It is everyone's responsibility to provide help, not simply shout it's the State's fault. Class divisions aside, it's true for all athough the "help" may change in nature and purpose. Going back to the original post. What is wrong.. we are quick to blame, not to act. Look through this thread and you'll see multiple examples where it's all X's fault.


:001_huh:Really?










You have absolutely no idea.

So, experience in brief.....

Sometime after a messy divorce (my fault for marrying above my station) and being made redundant...........I was left trying to raise two of my three children on a single man's unemployment benefit of £45:00 pw and the residue of my redundancy payment, (CSA rifling it first) contest the decision of a private Landlord who raised the rent by £30:00pm as well as the decision made by the council's rent assessor who concluded the Landlord was initially charging £30:00 more than they were prepared to pay out in benefit thus leaving me with a shortfall of £60:00 pm was just the beginning of a downfall.
FIS book was made out in my ex wife's name and she refused to relinquish it therefore rendering me unable to claim assistance for those children under my roof at the time. The law, CAB and DHSS claimed she was still legally entitled to to the payment because she was the legally named recipient. 
The system/authorities/welfare/representatives of the state informed me that if I found myself being evicted by my landlord for non-payment of rent the children could be returned to their mother (against their wishes) because they were not at risk. Granted, they were not at risk but because of the 'Guidelines laid down by govt' which appeared full of frustrating loopholes, the system took away any right to the freedom of choice that I or my children had.
The council are not obliged to hand over keys to one of their properties to a single unemployed male. Time passed and the inevitable happened. The letting agent working on behalf of the landlord even refused to return my security deposit of £400:00 because of the rent arrears.
No family/relatives of my own I was left to walk the streets. 
So don't sit behind your screen and tell me I'm wrong because you have absolutely no idea about the truth of how you get [email protected]@ked over by a failing system.

It's a wake up call.

And for all those who are quick to judge and condemn; You should try hardship sometime. Better still the absolute extremes of hardship such as homelessness.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Zaros said:


> And for all those who are quick to judge and condemn; You should try hardship sometime. Better still the absolute extremes of hardship such as homelessness.


So don't sit behind your screen and tell me I'm wrong because you have absolutely no idea about my experiences either or that of any acquaintances. My voice is just as valid as yours. Stealing is a choice.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Goblin said:


> So don't sit behind your screen and tell me I'm wrong because you have absolutely no idea about my experiences either or that of any acquaintances. My voice is just as valid as yours. *Stealing is a choice.*


And taking the above into consideration, shouldn't you have given a little more careful thought to what you were posting.

If you had, my post would not have been necessary.

Would it.:001_smile:

I doubt that starving/freezing to death on the streets of britain is a choice most want to make willingly either.:sad:


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Zaros your story is heart breaking as so many will be and as I understand it most of us are only 3 wage cheques away from losing our homes these days. Do you mind me asking whether any of the charities were of any help to you at all? The Salvation Army for instance. I've always supported them believing them to do a great deal of good work with the homeless and the elderly so it would be good to know first hand whether they are able to help in these circumstances.

I don't think anyone on here is against help for those in genuine need. It just feels like we have become the soft option for some who choose not to work. I believe we should help and support those who have fallen on hard times or who cannot work due to health issues but I also believe more should be done to encourage/force/prevent those who seek to take advantage. Sorry if that makes me sound harsh, it isn't meant to but "middle england" does feel very squeezed at times.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Goblin said:


> So don't sit behind your screen and tell me I'm wrong because you have absolutely no idea about my experiences either or that of any acquaintances. My voice is just as valid as yours. *Stealing is a choice*.


For some its the only option. I know someone who was in an extremely violent situation and they had to steal or starve (the stealing involved digging potatoes from a farmers field). If you had to see your children quite literally starve most of us would I think steal


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Zaros said:


> :001_huh:Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That all seems "beyond belief" but I know that your experience is not an isolated one. There are so many faults in the "system" that would allow such madness to occur.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Disagree that's it is a necessary evil as I believe it is currently simply an easy excuse.
> 
> It is everyone's responsibility to provide help, not simply shout it's the State's fault. Class divisions aside, it's true for all athough the "help" may change in nature and purpose. Going back to the original post. What is wrong.. we are quick to blame, not to act. Look through this thread and you'll see multiple examples where it's all X's fault.
> 
> ...


*I believe it is the states fault. They know full well how many people are suffering, most at the hands of the governments with their continuous cut backs.
How far are people supposed to be pushed?
If needed, i would steal to survive.
*


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

If you are homeless you have very little energy to think about getting help (if its there)When I slept out I was talking to one of the ex soldiers and he said he could'nt apply for a job (he had with no luck)turning up at an interview in the same clothes you have slept in and your address is some shop window,so what do these people do to get off the bottom of the pile.Why do we have Crisis at Christmas this should be happening all year round.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

i've stolen a bag of rice and a box of catfood in the last few weeks, from a megarich multinational corperation, and i feel not one ounce of guilt or remorse for doing it.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I think most people could live out of the cupboard or freezer plus benefits for a couple of weeks but then after that I really don't know how people manage.

Can't believe that in 21st century children are going to school hungry.

It may be bad management on the parents side.....so what? Children shouldn't be going to school hungry at all....and what happens to them when its school holidays?

But, if the state steps in and feeds all these children, takes away responsibility for children and no doubt some families would end up with bigger Tvs etc.

Don't know what the answer is to this....really goes against the grain that kids here are hungry and suffering.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rough sleeping & street homelessness | The Salvation Army

They say they have 80 centres around the UK but I would imagine they must be pretty full. They do some amazing work though.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

porps said:


> i've stolen a bag of rice and a box of catfood in the last few weeks, from a megarich multinational corperation, and i feel not one ounce of guilt or remorse for doing it.


But porps, it doesn't just effect the mega rich multinational it effects the store manager and staff who have targets and who get bollocked for not stopping shop lifters or worst still pay docked, or then it becomes somewhere like Scotland where Scotmid ( Co-Op) have security men on the doors. Is there not somewhere you can go for food? Many of the Supermarkets give food to Fareshare for homeless charities.

Where To Find Us | FareShare


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

whats this fascination with bigger tvs... seems to me like "we cant help with poverty until we an ensure than noone would take advantage of the system", i'd say help with poverty first, and then tackle the relatively small number of people who might take advantage of that help.

Do we really think we cant help anyone because we cant risk 1 in a hundred or a thousand or however many it is getting a better tv?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Zaros said:


> If you had, my post would not have been necessary.


Why, nothing wrong with my post. Stealing is a choice plain and simple, often affecting others with little themselves and nothing you've stated has changed my opinion. As for experience, although not personally affecting me, just someone I knew, just imagine into your mix you'd also thrown in false abuse claims along with the rest. Can you claim to know someone in that position? Believe me when I say innocent until proven guilty isn't reality.

What is wrong in stating it's everyone's responsibility not simply the state's? True the state has the responsibility but we all have additional responsibility to protect those in our community and it doesn't matter if you are rich or poor. To simply close our eyes to potential suffering close by and say "it's the state's responsibility" is wrong. However you also need to be effective when giving help and that is one of the potential problems.

We have a system where people feel they are entitled to far more than basics and are willing to take away benefits which could be used to assist those in real need. They use the excuse those with more need to pay up which most already do with taxes. We have, at the "rich" end of the scale people who do well, working very long hours, potentially affecting their long term health with the goal of securing a secure legacy for their family, not that that legacy isn't also taxed when it comes down to it when it is passed on. That's also not to say any future is safe, although in the UK at least it's safer than in many parts of the world. People need to stop looking over the fence and expecting what other people have if they have more. On the flip side, people do need to look over the fence and help those who are in need.

People need to build communities which look after each other and support each other, not just financially but emotionally. I've lived in streets where neighbours invite each other round for coffee and support each other. I've lived in streets where they do not. I know which I prefer.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

porps said:


> i've stolen a bag of rice and a box of catfood in the last few weeks, from a megarich multinational corperation, and i feel not one ounce of guilt or remorse for doing it.


Surely you qualify for help from a food bank?

Sorry, don't mean to be personal - but it's difficult to understand how someone who has no food in the house does not fall into some category for assistance.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Meezey said:


> But porps, it doesn't just effect the mega rich multinational it effects the store manager and staff who have targets and who get bollocked for not stopping shop lifters or worst still pay docked, or then it becomes somewhere like Scotland where Scotmid ( Co-Op) have security men on the doors. Is there not somewhere you can go for food? Many of the Supermarkets give food to Fareshare for homeless charities.
> 
> Where To Find Us | FareShare


i take your point that it doesnt only hit the corp bosses... but if they have to hire extra security it's creating more jobs, is that really such a bad thing?

maybe there is somewhere- they do have a place in manchester it seems.. doesnt matter now though, i have some rice... maybe i'll try that next time.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

FareShare Greater Manchester was launched in October 2008 to support communities to combat food poverty and food waste in and around Manchester. The operation is run by EMERGE 3Rs.

The team redistribute food to over 100 charities and community groups and new organisations are welcome all the time. Our community food members provide vitally needed meals, food parcels and snacks to hundreds of disadvantaged people every day. They work with a huge variety of people experiencing hardship from people who are homeless or unemployed, people dealing with substance abuse, refugees and asylum-seekers at drop-ins, Surestart centres, and breakfast and after-school clubs for children and young adults.

Gotta be better than stealing, surely?


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Everyday I take some food and even a pack of ciggies to a man who is living (if you can call it that)in a van in our local woods,he lost his job then his marriage then his home.All the local people can do is get a petition up to get him moved human nature at it best!!:nonod:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

porps said:


> i take your point that it doesnt only hit the corp bosses... but if they have to hire extra security it's creating more jobs, is that really such a bad thing?
> 
> maybe there is somewhere- they do have a place in manchester it seems.. doesnt matter now though, i have some rice... maybe i'll try that next time.


You can get other stuff from there, you need more than rice......

Can you not try:

Pet Food Pantry | Manchester Animal Shelter

For food for your cat?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

suewhite said:


> Everyday I take some food and even a pack of ciggies to a man who is living (if you can call it that)in a van in our local woods,he lost his job then his marriage then his home.All the local people can do is get a petition up to get him moved human nature at it best!!:nonod:


Has anyone told a local homeless charity about his plight? Maybe they can aid him into finding a better alternative?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

suewhite said:


> Everyday I take some food and even a pack of ciggies to a man who is living (if you can call it that)in a van in our local woods,he lost his job then his marriage then his home.All the local people can do is get a petition up to get him moved human nature at it best!!:nonod:


Awk not all people are like it, my OH told me about Rastatramp ( Arthur Williams) in Leith ( where my OH is from) ...

Rastatramp amazed by concerned thousands - Edinburgh Evening News

?Rastatramp? found in Leith half-way house - Edinburgh Evening News

He is loved and looked after by the people of Leith, he even has his own fan page on FB... :001_wub:


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> Has anyone told a local homeless charity about his plight? Maybe they can aid him into finding a better alternative?


Dont know only just started to chat to him, only thing is he has a dog with him I think he would be scared he would lose that as well.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *I believe it is the states fault. They know full well how many people are suffering, most at the hands of the governments with their continuous cut backs.
> How far are people supposed to be pushed?
> If needed, i would steal to survive.
> *


And yet despite all that what the government is performing isn't actually, economically speaking, austerity measures (what Spain and greece have cut is actually austerity fiscal policy) and they are still borrowing millions per day the country isn't earning or taking in tax

Strange but true
That's why the market economy economic growth system makes no logical sense
Hence why the rational solution is everyone borrowed massively and beyond repayment from every else so you just cancel it all out and start afresh (countries that is) with a different sensible system not based on globalisation, the likes of the EU, credit systems and utilising rationing of resources and population control
True environmentalism including humanity


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Zaros your story is heart breaking as so many will be and as I understand it most of us are only 3 wage cheques away from losing our homes these days. Do you mind me asking whether any of the charities were of any help to you at all? The Salvation Army for instance. I've always supported them believing them to do a great deal of good work with the homeless and the elderly so it would be good to know first hand whether they are able to help in these circumstances.


There were many other complicated factors to my history and it would take far too long to outline them to give you the fuller picture.

Nevertheless, the City I became homeless in did not provide any assistance and the one organisation that could have, in its infancy back then, claimed they did not regard me as a vulnerable person or a person at risk.:001_huh: Sadly the Salvation Army also proved to be a no go area.

Upon moving area to be nearer to my children I was interviewed by DHSS staff after being referred to them by the Job Centre whom I'd previously outlined my situation to.

They seemed a bit put out that the Job Centre had sent me over and in no uncertain terms told me 'If they were to provide houses for everyone who came to them they would soon have a serious housing shortage on their hands.' 
Out of complete frustration the interview was terminated because of an observation I had made whilst on my travels and thoughtlessly passed it over by word of mouth. 
Being escorted from the building by security staff only added to my frustrations and from there on in things seemed to go down hill a bit.

But I assure you M' lud, they started it.



Goblin said:


> As for experience, although not personally affecting me, just someone I knew, just imagine into your mix you'd also thrown in false abuse claims along with the rest. Can you claim to know someone in that position?


Actually I do personally know someone who was in that very position. It's what comes of marrying above your station.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> FareShare Greater Manchester was launched in October 2008 to support communities to combat food poverty and food waste in and around Manchester. The operation is run by EMERGE 3Rs.
> 
> The team redistribute food to over 100 charities and community groups and new organisations are welcome all the time. Our community food members provide vitally needed meals, food parcels and snacks to hundreds of disadvantaged people every day. They work with a huge variety of people experiencing hardship from people who are homeless or unemployed, people dealing with substance abuse, refugees and asylum-seekers at drop-ins, Surestart centres, and breakfast and after-school clubs for children and young adults.
> 
> Gotta be better than stealing, surely?


i dunno how it works, but i know how stealing works.. how do i get a voucher for these places? theres 2 of these relatively close to me: Error (though i'd still have to steal a trip on public transport to get there) i've looked and looked for answers the best i can find is ... 
_Foodbank clients bring their voucher to a foodbank centre where it can be redeemed for three days emergency food. Volunteers meet clients over a cup of tea or free hot meal and are able to signpost people to agencies able to solve the longer-term problem.
Some foodbanks also run a rural delivery service, which takes emergency foodboxes to clients living in rural areas who cannot afford to get to a foodbank.
_

so how do i get a voucher? am i elligible for one? who knows. it's fine anyway.



Meezey said:


> You can get other stuff from there, you need more than rice......
> 
> Can you not try:
> 
> ...


Nowt wrong with rice...i have some curry paste too so it's like eating chinese takeaway every night, it's fine.

I'll give the pet food pantry a call tomorrow thanks for that.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

porps said:


> whats this fascination with bigger tvs


Widscreens are so that you can see the bigger picture:wink:


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

porps said:


> i dunno how it works, but i know how stealing works..* how do i get a voucher for these places?* theres 2 of these relatively close to me: Error (though i'd still have to steal a trip on public transport to get there) i've looked and looked for answers the best i can find is ...
> _Foodbank clients bring their voucher to a foodbank centre where it can be redeemed for three days emergency food. Volunteers meet clients over a cup of tea or free hot meal and are able to signpost people to agencies able to solve the longer-term problem.
> Some foodbanks also run a rural delivery service, which takes emergency foodboxes to clients living in rural areas who cannot afford to get to a foodbank.
> _
> ...


Care professionals such as doctors, health visitors, social workers, CAB and police identify people in crisis and issue them with a foodbank voucher. Foodbanks partner with a wide range of care professionals who are best placed to assess need and make sure that it is genuine.

quoted from: Error


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

suewhite said:


> Dont know only just started to chat to him, only thing is he has a dog with him I think he would be scared he would lose that as well.


I would have thought that Shelter or Salvation Army are well used to dealing with people who own dogs - can't believe that there aren't ways they can keep them.

Maybe do some asking around (no names ) and see what sort of provision these organisations can provide or point people towards?


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Animallover26 said:


> Care professionals such as doctors, health visitors, social workers, CAB and police identify people in crisis and issue them with a foodbank voucher. Foodbanks partner with a wide range of care professionals who are best placed to assess need and make sure that it is genuine.
> 
> quoted from: Error


oh. maybe i shouldve asked my doctor for one when i went yesterday. Maybe he shouldve suggested it to me too, it's not like i didnt tell him about my situation. I dont have any of the other things. Next time i run out of food i will try and get a voucher from my doctor instead of going to tescos.

I'm still gonna break the system down next year.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

porps said:


> I'm still gonna break the system down next year.


Need to have strength to do it so will need more than rice


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> I think most people could live out of the cupboard or freezer plus benefits for a couple of weeks but then after that I really don't know how people manage.
> 
> Can't believe that in 21st century children are going to school hungry.
> 
> ...


In the case I mentioned the children were not permitted to go to school, family excluded so that no one would know.

In reply to Goblin - very many people cared greatly, family, numerous neighbours all reported to every authority you could imagine. Nothing was done for many years and was a miracle that it didn't end more tragically than it did.

Thankfully most of us have no idea how some lives are lived behind closed doors


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

porps said:


> oh. maybe i shouldve asked my doctor for one when i went yesterday. Maybe he shouldve suggested it to me too, it's not like i didnt tell him about my situation. I dont have any of the other things. Next time i run out of food i will try and get a voucher from my doctor instead of going to tescos.
> 
> I'm still gonna break the system down next year.


Can I suggest that you do it now, rather than wait until you are desperate?

Far better to be prepared and having some stand-by provisions in the cupboard will be of benefit and take a bit of pressure off. It may well be that you will also be directed towards some other help or assistance which could improve your whole situation. I'm sure many of these organisations are connected, in some way.

Sounds like you could do with a bit of support, all round, to me and this could be the first step into getting your life back onto an easier path.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

porps said:


> whats this fascination with bigger tvs... seems to me like "we cant help with poverty until we an ensure than noone would take advantage of the system", i'd say help with poverty first, and then tackle the relatively small number of people who might take advantage of that help.
> 
> Do we really think we cant help anyone because we cant risk 1 in a hundred or a thousand or however many it is getting a better tv?


Its nothing to do with bigger TVs though is it?The more some peope get given, the more they expect and then the more they demand.

You are never going to make a selfish parent change their ways...if its not TVs it would be something else...and yet children still go to school hungry.

You tell me what the answer is to this problem? I honestly don't know and don't know if there is in fact a solution to it.

I have 4 children and there were times we were skint....food became interesting and we had some odd combinations but my kids never ever went to school without food and never went hungry.......but I consider myself very fortunate and there by the grace of God etc.

They did go without material things but I don't think it did them any harm....but they may argue that one.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

suewhite said:


> Dont know only just started to chat to him, only thing is he has a dog with him I think he would be scared he would lose that as well.


He would undoubtedly have to give up his dog and this may be the very reason' in fact its highly likely to be the reason that he's in the situation he's in.

A lot of people who have a dog and suddenly find themselves homeless with no support system (family or friends) will adamantly refuse to give up that one loyal companion and when they do that, they are more likely to join the long term homeless than those without a dog.

Dogs of homeless people do surprisingly well in the great outdoors which is good for the dog but not so good for its loyal loving owner.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> He would undoubtedly have to give up his dog and this may be the very reason' in fact its highly likely to be the reason that he's in the situation he's in.
> 
> A lot of people who have a dog and suddenly find themselves homeless with no support system (family or friends) will adamantly refuse to give up that one loyal companion and when they do that, they are more likely to join the long term homeless than those without a dog.
> 
> Dogs of homeless people do surprisingly well in the great outdoors which is good for the dog but not so good for its loyal loving owner.


There are more and more shelters offering places for those people homeless with animals.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

This is a typical food box:

Milk (UHT or powdered)
Sugar (500g)
Fruit juice (carton)
Soup
Pasta sauces
Sponge pudding (tinned)
Tomatoes (tinned)
Cereals
Rice pudding (tinned)
Tea Bags/instant coffee
Instant mash potato
Rice/pasta
Tinned meat/fish
Tinned fruit
Jam
Biscuits or snack bar

They may also be able to supply pet food.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> This is a typical food box:
> 
> Milk (UHT or powdered)
> Sugar (500g)
> ...


yeah i saw that list... would be worth going just for the coffee, might chill me out a bit


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> This is a typical food box:
> 
> Milk (UHT or powdered)
> Sugar (500g)
> ...


Think they do supply pet food I always put in the bin and include pet food.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Meezey said:


> There are more and more shelters offering places for those people homeless with animals.


That would very much depend where you lived and if you had a shelter in your town that was being run on religious fundings. The majority of homeless people will only be offered B&B because thats all that is available and B&Bs seldom allow animals.

What normally happens is, they offer or suggest alternative care for the dog. Suggesting you leave the animal with friends or relatives (which for many isn't an option) or put the dog in a local kennels, (which the council wont normally pay for).


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

suewhite said:


> Think they do supply pet food I always put in the bin and include pet food.


Yeah - I actually asked the woman manning the donation post in Asda a few weeks back, if they accepted pet food. She said she didn't see any reason why they would not.

After all, pets are part of the family too


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ThelifeofPi said:


> That would very much depend where you lived and if you had a shelter in your town that was being run on religious fundings. The majority of homeless people will only be offered B&B because thats all that is available and B&Bs seldom allow animals.
> 
> What normally happens is, they offer or suggest alternative care for the dog. Suggesting you leave the animal with friends or relatives (which for many isn't an option) or put the dog in a local kennels, (which the council wont normally pay for).


"Pet-friendly shelters

Pet-friendly housing associations, shelters, day centres and temporary supported accommodations remain the exception rather than the rule. As homeless people naturally move around a great deal it is difficult to gauge exactly how many homeless animals are sleeping rough at any given time.

In Edinburgh, there are an estimated 35 accommodation services for homeless people but only three accommodate pets. (Source: Homeless Edinburgh)

The situation across the UK is not much better, and this is complicated because often information about individual shelters is not shared or updated.

Going by the most recent figures for major population centres, there are approximately 27 homeless centres or shelters in London that accept pets; eight in Cardiff; five in the West Midlands; four in Glasgow; two in Dundee and Manchester and only one in Newcastle, Swansea and Belfast. (Source: Dogs Trust Directory of Dog Friendly Homelessness Services 2008)

Please let us know at OneKind if you have information about pet-friendly shelters in your area."

The numbers aren't great but there are more than there used to be.. Rather than saying people can't, why not point out that people can, so there might not always be places who take animals but there are places who do, and there are more places...


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Although I always buy extra bits to pop in the bin I dont actually agree with people having to do it.To my mind the government should be pulling there heads out there backsides and admitting there is a problem as food banks are a short term answer (think you can only use them 3 times)to a long term problem.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

My local pet shop has a collection bin for pet food which they take to the local shelter.. They also give to homeless peoples pets..

I just read last night that the UN is saying that NL should give food and shelter to failed asylum seekers...This is after they have had their case reviewed 3 times and failed to present a decent case and even thought the country has homeless people of its own to deal with...

Charity really does begin at home sometimes....UN calls on Holland to feed and house failed asylum seekers - DutchNews.nl


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

suewhite said:


> Although I always buy extra bits to pop in the bin I dont actually agree with people having to do it.To my mind the government should be pulling there heads out there backsides and admitting there is a problem as food banks are a short term answer (think you can only use them 3 times)to a long term problem.


The thing is, supermarkets throw away tons of perfectly good food every day.

A friend of ours daughter works for Tescos stacking shelves on the night shift and she has told us that its not only the fresh out of date products that get dumped. Slightly dented tins, lose labelled products and anything that doesn't look more than perfect. Clothes that have been returned with a slight fault and toys where the box that contains it has been damaged all go into huge skips out the back and taken away to land fill sites. These supermarkets could fill those charity boxes ten times over each day but they don't see it as cost affective and so leave it to the more charitable consumer to purchase and donate gifts...its disgusting.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

dorrit said:


> I just read last night that the UN is saying that NL should give food and shelter to failed asylum seekers...This is after they have had their case reviewed 3 times and failed to present a decent case and even thought the country has homeless people of its own to deal with...
> 
> Charity really does begin at home sometimes....UN calls on Holland to feed and house failed asylum seekers - DutchNews.nl


I'm not sure what you are saying or suggesting here. Are you saying that we shouldn't give food or shelter to failed asylum seekers?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Have you considered that programmes like this are edited for shock value?


so they DIDNT drive here then?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Meezey said:


> "Pet-friendly shelters
> 
> Pet-friendly housing associations, shelters, day centres and temporary supported accommodations remain the exception rather than the rule. As homeless people naturally move around a great deal it is difficult to gauge exactly how many homeless animals are sleeping rough at any given time.
> 
> ...


Cambridge's biggest shelters are dog friendly. I make up a box of dog things each year for them

https://www.moretodogstrust.org.uk/help-with-finding-accommodation/dog-friendly-hostels/region/east


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying or suggesting here. Are you saying that we shouldn't give food or shelter to failed asylum seekers?


we shouldnt................... just a free flight back, after 1 week in the lock up


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> In the case I mentioned the children were not permitted to go to school, family excluded so that no one would know.


I know the situation where you are formally charged on somebody's accusation, no evidence but the accused is not allowed talk about it in case inquiries are prejudiced yet the police drag their heels as there "are more important cases". Life sucks at times but that is even more reason to have a strong community. Remember the initial post wasn't one of what's the state to blame for? Blaming the state, the poor or the rich does squat. If people want to improve their lives along with others it comes down to building a sense of community where everyone watches out for each other. Anyone with an pensioner living nearby is told to keep an eye on them and provide support. Shouldn't this be for everyone, not just for pensioners? This isn't prying into neighbours personal life it's watching out for one another. When my parents were going through really hard times it wasn't unknown for support not to be "call the authorities". It was here's a casserole, why don't you all come over for a meal or we have an old caravan you can use if you need it etc. Admittingly this wasn't in a city or even town but was where a strong community existed already.

If people put as much effort into building a strong community as they do trying to get the latest model iPhone I am sure society would be a much better place.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Life sucks at times but that is even more reason to have a strong community. Remember the initial post wasn't one of what's the state to blame for? Blaming the state, the poor or the rich does squat. If people want to improve their lives along with others it comes down to building a sense of community where everyone watches out for each other. Anyone with an pensioner living nearby is told to keep an eye on them and provide support. Shouldn't this be for everyone, not just for pensioners? This isn't prying into neighbours personal life it's watching out for one another. When my parents were going through really hard times it wasn't unknown for support not to be "call the authorities". It was here's a casserole, why don't you all come over for a meal or we have an old caravan you can use if you need it etc. Admittingly this wasn't in a city or even town but was where a strong community existed already.
> 
> If people put as much effort into building a strong community as they do trying to get the latest model iPhone I am sure society would be a much better place.


I totally agree. When I was working overseas we used to have bring and share meals. I could have gone to anyone's house if I needed something. There were no phones and we always got together for the weekly post delivery. The children used to swim and go out on their bikes etc. You don't need material things to make you happy-just the basics.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying or suggesting here. Are you saying that we shouldn't give food or shelter to failed asylum seekers?


If they are failed they should be returned to their home land ASAP if they choose not to comply they shouldnt expect handouts.

The UN is expecting the country to put failed asylum seekers ie illeagals, food and shelter while people with right to be in the country go without..


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

And I agree with that. I just wanted to clarify what was being said was what I thought was being said.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ThelifeofPi said:


> The thing is, supermarkets throw away tons of perfectly good food every day.
> 
> A friend of ours daughter works for Tescos stacking shelves on the night shift and she has told us that its not only the fresh out of date products that get dumped. *Slightly dented tins, lose labelled products* and anything that doesn't look more than perfect. Clothes that have been returned with a slight fault and toys where the box that contains it has been damaged all go into huge skips out the back and taken away to land fill sites. These supermarkets could fill those charity boxes ten times over each day but they don't see it as cost affective and so leave it to the more charitable consumer to purchase and donate gifts...its disgusting.


Just been reading this thread, and catching up when I came across this post (haven't read past it yet, so apologies if I'm repeating something that's already been said).

Re the bit in bold, I have been lead to believe (through training) that tins that are dented, even slightly, can leach potentially toxic chemicals into the food contained within. How true that is, I don't know, but as a carer, I sometimes have to go shopping for clients, and we are advised to check tins over, and bypass any tins with even a slight dent. It's something that I forego in my own shopping too, especially since the training, and if I were in a position to donate a tin to foodbank or homeless charities, (unfortunately, every single penny I get counts, to the point where, in many cases, I am having to make Christmas presents, instead of buy them) I wouldn't be donating anything I wouldn't use myself.

With regard to loose labels, if they come off, essential information could be lost, such as the best before date, nutritional information, cooking guidelines and storage instructions. Again, I would forego these products in favour of properly labelled produce, for myself, clients and anyone else I was buying for.

Just thought I'd offer a view from the other side of that coin.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Goblin said:


> it's everyone's responsibility not simply the state's? We all have responsibility.


Do I understand you correctly when you claim that the only person responsible for their own downfall is themself? 
That they are ultimately the ones to blame for not having a strong community, for not having a caring government, for not having a system full of holes through which thousands just like them fall each week, each month and each year?

I disagree and by your nature you're bound to disagree or agree, or agree to to disagree. :crazy:
Opinions are the simplest of things to pass over. Personal experiences, however, become much more difficult.

_*And did those feet in ancient time 
Walk upon England's mountains green. *_


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I was also told to avoid dented tins for the reasons outlined. 

-------

I noticed an item somewhere the other day (tv, newspaper, can't remember) where some of the supermarkets had joined a scheme to donate food and other items that would be either thrown away because they were on or close to sell by date, or just not selling generally, box dented, label damaged, one item missing from a multi-pack, etc.

These were then to be available to purchase at reduced prices to people who qualify for assistance, in a shop laid out just like any other. Can't remember what the qualifying criteria were but, it seemed like a good idea.

I suppose it works very much like the "bargain buckets" in supermarkets (which I always go to when I shop and can pick up some good, reduced items) but I guess that it could be argued that someone else's need is greater than mine for a bargain - and I don't disagree with that. It seems fair to channel these items to those who need them most, I guess. 

I also like the idea that people in need can still go along and purchase their own shopping, rather than receive a hand out (which I know some people may probably feel uneasy about).

This doesn't solve the fact that people are in dire straits, but it seems a sensible way to help them, help themselves.

I think that is the point - I don't begrudge anyone help who needs it, but do get fed up of hearing that the responsibility for everyone's troubles lay solely at the door of the government because that simply is not true in many cases.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

who was it who said we are all only 1 lost pay check away from disaster....or something like that?

Just losing 1 months pay packet is enough to send us into a spiralling debt problem...how do people manage without a pay packet and on benefits etc when there is an unseen problem?...just drop further and further down into poverty?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> who was it who said we are all only 1 lost pay check away from disaster....or something like that?
> 
> Just losing 1 months pay packet is enough to send us into a spiralling debt problem...how do people manage without a pay packet and on benefits etc when there is an unseen problem?...just drop further and further down into poverty?


But that's if they have ever had a pay packet in the first place!!!


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> Re the bit in bold, I have been lead to believe (through training) that tins that are dented, even slightly, can leach potentially toxic chemicals into the food contained within. How true that is, I don't know, but as a carer, I sometimes have to go shopping for clients, and we are advised to check tins over, and bypass any tins with even a slight dent.
> 
> With regard to loose labels, if they come off, essential information could be lost, such as the best before date, nutritional information, cooking guidelines and storage instructions. Again, I would forego these products in favour of properly labelled produce, for myself, clients and anyone else I was buying for.
> 
> Just thought I'd offer a view from the other side of that coin.


Food tins aren't actually tin, not any more anyway. Most are made from aluminium or mild steel. If a can is dented then it could of lose its seal which means the canning will no longer work and so the food will perish just like fresh food...but...and there is a but; if you press a finger on the top or bottom of a can and it makes a popping sound, the can's seal has probably been broken and air has made its way inside. Popped cans should be thrown out. As long as it doesn't make a noise or move when you press your finger on it, the seal is still good.

Tins also have printed sell by dates on the metal base and so do plastic containers such as tomato ketchup. If the contents of the product can't be seen without a label, then yes, they need to be discarded and then of course we have a law which states all ingredients in the product have to be visible to the consumer. Why thought, do even the slightest damaged packaging also end up in land fill?

I was also told that all produce that has been picked up and put back down on the wrong shelf on the wrong isle is dumped. Whilst frozen or refrigerated products should be discarded, why would they do this with fully sealed unrefrigerated ones.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Zaros said:


> Do I understand you correctly when you claim that the only person responsible for their own downfall is themself?


Really :hand: Try taking quotes in context.

Let's see.. think my viewpoint is clear with this..


Goblin said:


> People don't generally mind taxes to support a benefit system which helps the needy *as anybody can fall on hard times*.


Can't see my position stated more clearly than that. There's a difference between people choosing to be on benefits and people who need help. With that in mind people do have a responsibility to try and support themselves when possible, not choosing to be dependant on others.. When it's not possible, a safety net needs to be in place.

The state has a responsibility for this net but it cannot stop there. We can't simply blame someone else if people are not supported. We each have responsibility to help others who need it, additional to simply paying taxes. The best way of doing that and something which is missing as far as I am concerned nowadays is a strong sense of community. This would provide additional security not just materialistically but also emotionally which is a factor often ignored.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> But that's if they have ever had a pay packet in the first place!!!


*I'm sure these people are the minority. You will always have a few bad apples.*


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ThelifeofPi said:


> *Food tins aren't actually tin, not any more anyway*. Most are made from aluminium or mild steel. If a can is dented then it could of lose its seal which means the canning will no longer work and so the food will perish just like fresh food...but...and there is a but; if you press a finger on the top or bottom of a can and it makes a popping sound, the cans seal has probably been broken and air has made its way inside. Popped cans should be thrown out. As long as it doesn't make a noise or move when you press your finger on it, the seal is still good.


Yes, I am aware that most "tins" are now aluminium cans (it was 1:00am, and I was fighting a sedating anti-histamine - there were other words that my brain struggled to process), but thank you for confirming my point:

Dangers of Eating Canned Food (and How to Reduce Those Health Risks)

Is it safe to buy dented food from grocery stores? - HowStuffWorks



> *Tins* also have printed sell by dates on the metal base and so do plastic containers such as tomato ketchup. If the contents of the product can't be seen without a label, then yes, they need to be discarded and then of course we have a law which states all ingredients in the product have to be visible to the consumer. Why thought, do even the slightest damaged packaging also end up in land fill?


Don't you mean, cans?  Don't correct me if you're going to use the same terminology yourself.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> Yes, I am aware that most "tins" are now aluminium cans (it was 1:00am, and I was fighting a sedating anti-histamine - there were other words that my brain struggled to process), but thank you for confirming my point:
> 
> Dangers of Eating Canned Food (and How to Reduce Those Health Risks)
> 
> Is it safe to buy dented food from grocery stores? - HowStuffWorks


Thanks for the links but your link said more or less the same as I said. As for me calling them tins (I'm pretty certain I didn't correct you on that ), I call them tins and I call them cans as well. What I said was, tins aren't made of tin. 

The present government, though its likely a long process, are planning to make much tighter rules on supermarket waste. They are well aware that struggling food banks could make good use of many discarded products.

Even if we bin every damaged tin (can), what about toys, soaps, loo rolls and clothes. Why should they end up in land-fill sites?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm sure these people are the minority. You will always have a few bad apples.*


I don't agree with this, and I think this is why people get so wound up about it, people who really need help should get it, we shouldn't have people living on the streets, we shouldn't have people taking their own lives rather than living in poverty, we shouldn't have children going without food etc, we also shouldn't be raising kids thinking the world owes them a favour, and that their security in life is benefits and kids.. It's not just a few bad apples, there are area that people aspire to be in their council house married with a child and on benefits! There can only be so many incentives to help school leavers in deprived areas get a trade and look for work, god forbid it might mean moving or getting up and getting their hands dirty or working in a fast food joint.

I am sure most people have family members who really could work ( I did, thankfully they are now working) and friends, or people in their neighbourhood who would rather just not work and live on benefits.

I am all for people having benefits if they need them, I'm all for my taxes going to help get people off the street and get kids foods, I donate enough as well as my taxes, I'd give people my last £1 if I thought they needed it, but I get angry at those who don't need it ( and it's not a minority or a few) who then in turn make it harder for those most in need to get it.. The government isn't making this happened, it's those who think the world owe them a favour and doesn't see why they should get out of their pits in the morning and earn a living who mess things up for those desperately in need..


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Most people in poverty are in poverty because of the coalitions austerity policy - & for the first time most people in poverty are actually in work.

Inequality briefing explains why ~

Inequality Briefing

.

.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Most people in poverty are in poverty because of the coalitions austerity policy - & for the first time most people in poverty are actually in work.
> 
> Inequality briefing explains why ~
> 
> ...


Think this says it all.:nonod:


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm sure these people are the minority. You will always have a few bad apples.*


I honestly would not have a clue re this apart from the stuff reported on TV. I have never had to claim benefits and the times when there was no money coming in we were not eligible for benefits cos we were self employed etc.

The benefits/welfare state system was meant to help people from the cradle to the grave....it was never meant as a life choice but as a safety net for anybody in trouble.

Nobody should starve in our country and anybody can fall on hard times etc and I also think the welfare/benefits bill and expense is a drop in the ocean compared to stuff others are creaming off and nobody says a word.

I know someone who won £120,000 on the lottery....everybody said wow, lucky you. 
Policeman I used to know was awarded £120,000 after a work related accident that meant he couldn't do his job any more and people said...fraud( it wasn't)
and then a good friend of mine got her £120,000 Christmas bonus from her job on the stock exchange and everybody in her circle thought that was normal.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Most people in poverty are in poverty because of the coalitions austerity policy - & for the first time most people in poverty are actually in work.
> 
> Inequality briefing explains why ~
> 
> ...


And yet its misnamed, as it isnt even a austerity policy and hasn't stopped millions being borrowed daily

Go figure eh?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

suewhite said:


> Think this says it all.:nonod:


Great post

Where did you get that from?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

suewhite said:


> Think this says it all.:nonod:


Hmmm I think I remember seeing something about this where the person who put this up in the first instance had to make an apology as the pictures and titles are incorrect in some respect, so slight element of "fiction" about it..


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Hmmm I think I remember seeing something about this where the person who put this up in the first instance had to make an apology as the pictures and titles are incorrect in some respect, so slight element of "fiction" about it..


OH!! did'nt know that it landed up on my facebook page.:blink:


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

suewhite said:


> Think this says it all.


Meme's are interesting and I've posted it myself. They are not however, necessarily true. Internet <> True


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Meme's are interesting and I've posted it myself. They are not however, necessarily true.


Maybe not but I have sat and watched TV (boring one that I am)in the afternoon live in Parliment and to be honest there are important debates and there are a handful of MPs there.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sadly I think its a reflection of what politics has become in this country. They are so out of touch with real life (all parties) and seem to be out to feather their own nests rather than to really help people or listen to what people think. Local councils are just as bad too. In some respects I think Goblin has a point and communities need to start working together more to make things happen working alongside charities and businesses that do want to help and see change. How? I'm not quite sure but when I've figured it out I'll let you know.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

suewhite said:


> OH!! did'nt know that it landed up on my facebook page.:blink:


I saw it one mine too and then there was a huge debate over it..  Joys of the world wide web


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

suewhite said:


> OH!! did'nt know that it landed up on my facebook page.:blink:





Goblin said:


> Meme's are interesting and I've posted it myself. They are not however, necessarily true. Internet <> True


i too wondered about the provenance of this

i also wonder too about people that regularly rely on memes for argument instead of just relying upon their own words.....


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Why, nothing wrong with my post. Stealing is a choice plain and simple, often affecting others with little themselves and nothing you've stated has changed my opinion. As for experience, although not personally affecting me, just someone I knew, just imagine into your mix you'd also thrown in false abuse claims along with the rest. Can you claim to know someone in that position? Believe me when I say innocent until proven guilty isn't reality.
> 
> What is wrong in stating it's everyone's responsibility not simply the state's? True the state has the responsibility but we all have additional responsibility to protect those in our community and it doesn't matter if you are rich or poor. To simply close our eyes to potential suffering close by and say "it's the state's responsibility" is wrong. However you also need to be effective when giving help and that is one of the potential problems.
> 
> ...


Seriously; how DARE you.

I've been homeless and I'm lucky enough to have a roof overt head.

I have NEVER stolen in my life but I've picked up cigarette butts off the floor because I can't afford my own.

I have a first class honours degree andy masters; am I another bundle in a bag on the streets?

Offering coffee? Do you know what it's like to not be able to have water to take the medicine you need to control your epilepsy?

Go and live, truly, on the streets and preach to mr, you ludicrous little man


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Flamingoes said:


> Go and live, truly, on the streets and preach to mr, you ludicrous little man


Funny. Someone with a first class honours degree should be able to debate  Please explain where I have looked down at those who are on the street or stated that they do not need assistance? Yes, I have stated some people choose benefits. Do you dispute that?

Do you dispute that we need to help others and band together as communities not simply rely on the state and say it's simply their responsibility to excuse us from doing more?

Interested in where I am being ludicrous about it.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Funny. Someone with a first class honours degree should be able to debate  Please explain where I have looked down at those who are on the street or stated that they do not need assistance? Yes, I have stated some people choose benefits. Do you dispute that?
> 
> Do you dispute that we need to help others and band together as communities not simply rely on the state and say it's simply their responsibility to excuse us from doing more?
> 
> Interested in where I am being ludicrous about it.


To be honest I'm at a point in my life where I couldn't give a damn about particular words.

Your sentiment said it all; there is nothing within me that wants to debate things with you.

I hope to god you are never in circumstances like mine; and if you are I hope someone may give you a 10p euro.

You've got some gaul


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Goblin said:


> we need to help others as communities not simply rely on the state and say it's simply their responsibility to excuse us from doing more?


This year it would be nice if everyone could say they found a place called home. Even if it's just for a day.

Driven by your passion for a sense of community, how many homeless people will you be cooking Christmas dinner for this year?:001_unsure:


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Flamingoes said:


> Your sentiment said it all; there is nothing within me that wants to debate things with you.


Considering you know little about me or my history who is being judgemental?


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Zaros said:


> This year it would be nice if everyone could say they found a place called home. Even if it's just for a day.
> 
> Driven by your passion for a sense of community, how many homeless people will you be cooking Christmas dinner for this year?:001_unsure:


^^

This

You sanctimonious s*d

Go out there and live; I truly hope you never, ever have to but there but for the grace of god, and all that.

You've actually made me angry and I don't do angry.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Considering you know little about me or my history who is being judgemental?


Awk you don't remember me?

I remember you and I've agreed with you many a time but in this regard I'm 
sorry bit you're wrong


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Zaros said:


> This year it would be nice if everyone could say they found a place called home. Even if it's just for a day.


I agree.



> Driven by your passion for a sense of community, how many homeless people will you be cooking Christmas dinner for this year?:001_unsure:


"Homeless" as such none. Then again in the local community we do not have anyone we know who is "homeless". We have invited someone who is away from their family over Christmas and would otherwise be alone. Previous years we have invited and looked after a pensioner from across the road whose only surviving relatives lived in Sweden. Unfortunately she passed away this year. We regularly donate to the local "table service" which provides food for those in need, especially children, throughout the year. This isn't simply for Christmas, every day throughout the year they distribute over 5 tonnes of food to the "local" community, including centers where people can get hot food.

What are you doing?


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Goblin said:


> I agree.
> 
> Homeless as such none. Then again in the local community we do not have anyone we know who is homeless. We have invited someone who is away from their family over Christmas. Previous years we have invited and looked after a pensioner from across the road whose only surviving relatives lived in Sweden. Unfortunately she passed away last year. We regularly donate to the local "table service" which provides food for those in need, especially children, throughout the year. This isn't simply for Christmas, every day throughout the year they distribute over 5 tonnes of food to the "local" community, including centers where people can get hot food.
> 
> What are you doing?


Boxing Day I'm doing 12 hours at the Peoples Kitchen because they're a none profit organisation but they helped much; today a homeless man asked if I had change and dear god I don't but he had a dog with him and so I bought 2 cans of dog food that I can't afford even for me to eat.

If we're going to do this then what the hell are you doing apart from pontificating?

Eta Christmas Day I'll be cooking at the peoples kitchen but I don't contribute to that apart from time so I'm not sure it counts


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Flamingoes said:


> If we're going to do this then what the hell are you doing apart from pontificating?


I am simply answering a question which was asked directly to me. Other than that I have joined a debate and given my views rather than simply attacking and insulting someone.

Anyhow. I'll leave this topic alone now. It's obvious certain people aren't interested in discussion and I've stated what I feel needed to be said.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Goblin said:


> I am simply answering a question which was asked directly to me. Other than that I have joined a debate and given my views rather than simply attacking and insulting someone.


Grand; please extend the courtesy to my real life friends.

Have a good Christmas x


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Flamingoes said:


> Have a good Christmas x


Same, to everybody.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Having a conscience is a weakness when the enemies you have dont
Sometimes you gotta stoop to their level to be in control
So even if I got to beg steal or borrow
I'll do what I need to do to get to see tomorrow
Some have eyes in the back of their head
But some people are blind so it has to be said
If you think that you'll get by just by having respect
Well this is your reality check 
-lunar c


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

porps said:


> Having a conscience is a weakness when the enemies you have dont
> Sometimes you gotta stoop to their level to be in control
> So even if I got to beg steal or borrow
> I'll do what I need to do to get to see tomorrow
> ...


People seem to live in different bubbles. I'm pleased to say that my bubble has usually been quite safe, poor but safe.

I do know that sometimes people have to do things that they would rather not do just to survive.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Goblin said:


> I agree.
> 
> "Homeless" as such none. Then again in the local community we do not have anyone we know who is "homeless". We have invited someone who is away from their family over Christmas and would otherwise be alone. Previous years we have invited and looked after a pensioner from across the road whose only surviving relatives lived in Sweden. Unfortunately she passed away this year. We regularly donate to the local "table service" which provides food for those in need, especially children, throughout the year. This isn't simply for Christmas, every day throughout the year they distribute over 5 tonnes of food to the "local" community, including centers where people can get hot food.
> 
> What are you doing?


Well for the record, we're taking a day's drive (beginning tomorrow morning at 4:00am) to a remote little village at the snowy edges of the world where a handful of vulnerable little old people live including the MIL. 
At 82 she's the youngest.:thumbup:

There we will cook, set tables, serve, tidy away, wash, clean, clear snow, cut and stack wood, repair faults, breakages, breakdowns and appliances. Christmas for us begins on the 30th December the day we return home. 
It's our little contribution to care in the rapidly disappearing community.:001_smile:


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> i too wondered about the provenance of this
> 
> i also wonder too about people that regularly rely on memes for argument instead of just relying upon their own words.....


Here you go....

The menace of memes: how pictures can paint a thousand lies Â» Spectator Blogs


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

trust nothing


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

suewhite said:


> Think this says it all.:nonod:


That one might not be accurate Sue - but this one is. They literally are taking the p*** lol House of Commonsâ champagne bill goes up and up despite austerity - UK Politics - UK - The Independent


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> That one might not be accurate Sue - but this one is. They literally are taking the p*** lol House of Commonsâ champagne bill goes up and up despite austerity - UK Politics - UK - The Independent


If that is true, then it is outrageous!

I think there are many things like this that are equally infuriating.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

The government borrowed 14 billion in November

So much for the so called austerity programme

Bit pointless really


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

oh btw, that food bank type place we found for petfood in manchester.. i was all set to go yesterday- clicked the google map to check exactly where it was... turned out to be in manchester, massachusetts, which is a bit far for even me to jump a bus to :lol:


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Widow Betty Williams who is laying on £1,000 Christmas lunch for 50 strangers | Daily Mail Online

Saw this and it made me think of this thread.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> The government borrowed 14 billion in November
> 
> So much for the so called austerity programme
> 
> Bit pointless really


That was public sector borrowing. Any government will have to borrow for the public sector but the good news is, that 14 billion is down from last year by 1.6 billion.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

porps said:


> oh btw, that food bank type place we found for petfood in manchester.. i was all set to go yesterday- clicked the google map to check exactly where it was... turned out to be in manchester, massachusetts, which is a bit far for even me to jump a bus to :lol:


NO WAY!! well bloody hell :ciappa:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ThelifeofPi said:


> That was public sector borrowing. Any government will have to borrow for the public sector but the good news is, that 14 billion is down from last year by 1.6 billion.


Of course it was public sector borrowing!
That's the whole point
Its only down from last year as they off set 1.5 bill from the total from earning bank fines anyway

But this is moot I think you are missing the point and im flabbergasted you could put the phrase good news in the same sentence as the government borrowed 14 billion in one single month! So thats every month! So this country is in debt by trillions

That is truly insane -trying to apply logic here doesn't even work here!


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## 2Cats2Dogs (Oct 30, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> Of course it was public sector borrowing!
> That's the whole point
> Its only down from last year as they off set 1.5 bill from the total from earning bank fines anyway
> 
> ...


Given the insane and lack of logic from the government, how would you run public services?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

2Cats2Dogs said:


> Given the insane and lack of logic from the government, how would you run public services?


Wrong question

The question should be how would I run the economy?


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## 2Cats2Dogs (Oct 30, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> Wrong question
> 
> The question should be how would I run the economy?


And how would you?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

2Cats2Dogs said:


> And how would you?


see my previous posts for the answer written quite a lot about this before including back on this thread just to say absolutely nothing to do with the current global economic system


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> Of course it was public sector borrowing!
> That's the whole point
> Its only down from last year as they off set 1.5 bill from the total from earning bank fines anyway
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what your point was though? If you look at what we borrowed between April and September, it was still around 11 billion a month. Yes, its higher than it was last year and we need to understand why...
poor wage growth, 
fewer property transactions that would normally be expected, 
increases in personal allowances, 
lower oil and gas revenues, 
increased investments, 
increased interest payments, 
and higher welfare costs have all contributed to us having to borrow from Peter to pay Paul. Now if the government had borrowed this money to buy private islands for all its back benches I would be spitting blood.

We are not in debt by trillions. The national debt reached £1.45tn in September of this year.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ThelifeofPi said:


> I'm not sure what your point was though? If you look at what we borrowed between April and September, it was still around 11 billion a month. Yes, its higher than it was last year and we need to understand why...
> poor wage growth,
> fewer property transactions that would normally be expected,
> increases in personal allowances,
> ...


So its just 1.54 trill then :sosp:
where's the good news :sosp:

i realise the systemic rationales
the point is those rationales are part of an irrational, illogical, and insane system in the first place

thus the system we got currently provides a policy thats called 'austerity', yet actually isnt austerity, yet causes hardship, and actually doesnt achieve its desired purpose, as its based within a system which is the very problem in the first place :incazzato:


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