# Do dogs grow more if they are neutered?



## Ace (Jan 2, 2010)

I have read on the internet if you neuter your dog he grows bigger due to testosterone usually telling the bones when to stop growing and by removing the testosterone the bones grow more?

just wanted to know whether this is a myth or not

thanks for any replies


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

No they get fat if their diet and exercise are'nt watched though!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

My dog never got fat but he grew 6 inches taller than the maximum height for his breed. He was castrated at 6 months.


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> My dog never got fat but he grew 6 inches taller than the maximum height for his breed. He was castrated at 6 months.


The vet warned me that if you don't watch their diet and exercise they get fat!! I am not saying your dogs gonna get fat


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

We had Amber spayed when she was 6 1/2 months old and grew to the hight of a male at least 4 inches more than the breed standard for a female.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> The vet warned me that if you don't watch their diet and exercise they get fat!! I am not saying your dogs gonna get fat


lol I didn't think you were. The dog I was talking about was always a fussy eater. We didn't change a thing diet or exercise-wise, but he never got fat.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

No, it's not a myth, but it all depends on what age you neuter. You will only have trouble if you neuter before the dog is mature - and this can be anything between 10 to 24 months depending upon the size of the dog. If you neuter too early, you prevent the the sex hormones such as testosterone and progesterone being produced. This results in the delayed closing of the growth plates of the long leg bones, which creates leggy, taller than average dogs and increases the risk of some orthopedic disorders such as cruciate ligament disease, hip problems and possibly bone cancer.


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

if you neuter too young, i think anything below 8 months is too young and even then id leave it to as close to 2 as possible depending on the dogs behaviour.
below 8 months, growth plates dont close, meaning dogs will grow taller/leggier and often results in all sorts of problems, like elbow displacia, hip displacia, joint problems, arthritus, ligament problems, all sorts. Getting your dog done between the ages of 13-18 months, eg during the secondary fear period can also behaviourally mess up your dog.
so 8-12 months, then 18 months onwards i would, in between those i would be looking very carefully at the reasons why and getting lots of opinions etc.

its one of those things that goes to show - dont just take what your vet says for gospel, do your research before following their reccommendations.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Ace said:


> ...if you neuter your dog he grows bigger... testosterone usually tell(s) the bones when to stop growing...
> by removing the testosterone the bones grow more?


hey, ace! :--)

short + simple? 
*this is only true of juvenile-neuters, which are done before 12-WO, typically in shelters or rescues - * 
according to multiple veterinary studies around the world.

M-dogs are unusual re other mammals - there are things similar to other species, like the androgen bath 
in-utero when masculinizing-androgens are secreted into the amniotic fluid - 
humans do that, too. *but there are other things that are different - and in M-dogs, the pubertal flush of testosterone 
is followed by a rising spike of more testosterone, peaking at approx 9-MO, then falling to the adult-levels. * 
so far as we know,this is unique to dogs - and translates to various problem behaviors, in that time-frame - and possibly 
for the dogs lifetime, as *learned behaviors are a part of that developmental period - * if the dog learns to leg-lift 
inside the home-foyer when he sees other dogs pass by, UN-learning that response to visual-stim may be difficult, 
even if the dog is neutered thereafter.

that spike (from 6-MO to 9-MO) is why most vets advise pet-owners to neuter a M-pup between 6-MO + 8-MO, 
to avoid the rising intensification of testes-driven behaviors like M:M reactivity, posturing, humping, leg-lifting 
inappropriately, mounting, etc. basically if do not intend to breed, allowing the dog to learn + rehearse undesirable behaviors, 
which may or may not cease post-desex, is counter-productive.

there are differences between JUVENILE desex (before 12-WO), PUBERTAL desex (6 to 7-MO), and Post-Pubertal desex - 
approx 8-MO to 12-MO. juvenile-desex is the one that causes *some* extra height in the long-bones of the legs - 
*but IME over more than 25-years, with many shelter-adoptees who were juvie-desexed, the difference is not even 
visible to the eye, in most cases; siblings who remained intact + their juvie-desex brother differed by an inch or so, 
which is hardly glaringly obvious. * pubertal desex causes no change in height, as the long-bones have stopped growing, 
by 6-MO.

When do dogs actually stop growing? - Pet Forums Community

skeletal growth chart - see this link - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - When to Castrate?

more info - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - all dogs should be neutered

happy reading, 
--- terry


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I know you've posted that info before Terry, but I do wonder about my boy. His bones were VERY long for a Bullmastiff, he wasn't just a giant. And he developed all sorts of joint and ligament problems too.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Good job Ted isnt neutered then, hes well above average height now


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## Ace (Jan 2, 2010)

My dog was neutered between 6 - 7 months so does this mean his bones will grow larger than the recommended height for his breed (staffy) ?


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## Guest (May 30, 2010)

A dog needs to reach full maturity prior to castration imo.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Ace said:


> My dog was neutered between 6 - 7 months so does this mean his bones will grow larger than the recommended height for his breed (staffy) ?


It means that his leg bones will probably grow longer than they are meant to do for his breed, and so he will probably be taller than the average staffy. It also means he may have an increased risk of orthopedic disorders such as cruciate ligament disorders and hip and elbow displasia.


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

If you neuter before your dogs growth plates close you risk your dog being taller and leggier than he would otherwise be. The growth plates on various breeds close at different times, in my breed chows it is recomended to wait til 18 - 24 months.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Ace said:


> My dog was neutered between 6 - 7 months so does this mean his bones will grow larger than the recommended height for his breed (staffy) ?


Its not a sureity by any means. I do know of dogs castrated young that didn't grow taller. But my Bullmastiff did. His legs were long and thin, not at all how they would normally be when fully grown. Personally I wouldn't take the chance again, especially with a giant breed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Ace said:


> My dog was neutered between 6 - 7 months so does this mean his bones will grow larger than the recommended height for his breed (staffy) ?


no, ace - 
please see the ** Links * in my previous post for the skeletal growth chart + other info; the length of the long-bones of the leg 
is halted in intact-M pups by the initial surge of pre-pubertal testosterone, around 5-MO; as Ur dog was a month or more 
past that age, there should be absolutely no difference in the height Ur dogs spine will be, from the floor, as an adult -- 
He Had Already Gotten Legs as Long As They Would Be; They Had Stopped.

he is a PUBERTAL desex - _as i have already said many times, the veterinary studies all state that only Juvie-Neuters, 
meaning *before 12-WO* , show any significant lengthening of the long-bones, and even in those dogs, 
it is not a big difference. _ cheers, 
--- terry


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Terry - I can't get the links out here but do they say that there were absolutely NO post 12 w pups who were castrated and showed long bone growth?

I had no idea this could happen when I had my dog castrated. I went on a forum asking why my dog was growing so tall and not developing muscle tone (I had only had entire BM's then) and was asked when he was castrated. It all fitted.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> We had Amber spayed when she was 6 1/2 months old...
> (she) grew to the height of a male, at least 4 inches more than the breed standard for a female.


hey, hp! :--)

there is over 4-inches difference at the withers in the breed-standard for M vs F dogs? thats extremely unusual -which breed?

no matter when this particular dog was ***spayed***, U cannot blame the decrease of testosterone for her extra height; 
_*this growth mechanism is not present in F-dogs, only in Ms. *_

all my best, 
--- terry


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

My male chow was bought at 6 months old Leashedforlife... he had been run on by a breeder, but was sold as he wasn't square enough, his legs were quite short.. by 18 months he was completely square, and had put on a full 3 inches in leg length... So his spine was NOT the final height off the ground as you state at 6 months. It took to just over 2 yrs old for him to reach full skeletal maturity, this was closely noted and monitored by my vet, as he had entropian, and it was not recomenced being operated on til he reached full mature growth...

At age 3 and a half now, he has still to fully mature in his musculature.... I don't expect him to reach full development til he is 4ish.

God knows how long his legs would be if he had be neutered at 6 months!!!


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## HeyMeow (May 19, 2010)

My Cairn was castrated when he was 11 months old, and he is a bit big for his breed, not too much tho.  I find it extremely difficult to keep him in shape, it's like he replaced sexual tension with an extreme cravings for food.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> Terry - I can't get the links out here but do they say that there were absolutely NO post 12 w pups who were castrated and showed long bone growth?


hey, luv! :--)

the vet-studies concluded that the only significant, predictable differences between expected height at adulthood, 
and actual height at adulthood, measured as the length of the long-bones, *was in pups who were juvenile-neutered - *
and even there, altho there was a difference, it was not (my term) catastrophic.

bear in mind that even siblings are not identical in height as adults; there can be taller or shorter, slab-sided or muscular 
dogs, and yet they are all siblings born of the same parents. thats what sexual reproduction is all about - variation 
+ recombination to create a real-world test for survivability + gene transfer.

this ONE article - Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete 
is cited by over a dozen Net links -


> EXCERPT - *bold added - *
> 
> _ How can we prevent the production of unwanted dogs while still leaving the gonads to produce the hormones that are so
> important to canine growth and development? *One answer would be to perform vasectomies in males and tubal ligation in females, to be followed after maturity by ovariohysterectomy in females to prevent
> ...


notice that he never mentions a second-surgery for M-dogs - only for Fs? :huh: notice he never mentions that KEEPING testes 
means *keep* the risk of prostate-problems, testicular + other androgen-fueled cancers, despite the tube-snip? 
notice that he also never mentions that TUBAL-LIGATIONS can close - meaning the supposedly-sterile are now fertile.

*training* as a solution for various M and F learned-behaviors that are concomitant with being intact, and GETTING 
OLDER - the closer they get to adulthood, the more negative learned-behaviors they have acquired. *once learned, 
the behavior is not UN-learnable; F-dogs who become reactive or aggro to other Fs do not forget that when they are spayed; Ms who posture, strut, leg-lift and bully do not necessarily STOP when they are desexed later. * 
this guy is a vet - with a DVM and everything - but i think his ideas are frankly, ridiculous. 

and the other wildly popular _defense of our dogs_ paper is the one promoted by 
the breeders-rights organization here in the USA, which is on literally thousands of breed-websites.

personally, heres one that i like: Neutering your male | Dog Time - Getting your boy dog or puppy fixed

and more:

Questions and answers on the effects of surgically... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1991] - PubMed result

Short-term results and complications of prepuberta... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1997] - PubMed result

Canine Ovariohysterectomy and Orchiectomy Increases the Prev... : Clinical Orthopaedics and Related Research


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, hp! :--)
> 
> there is over 4-inches difference at the withers in the breed-standard for M vs F dogs? thats extremely unusual -which breed?
> 
> ...


f dogs - i dont know, male dogs, its often seen in pups neutered below 6 months, dependent on the dog, obviously, but i have seen it a lot, in our creche i can think of 7 dogs off the top of my head neuterd between 3-6 months old all the same, with the same type problems resulting. normally coupled with many many problem when they're older, theres plenty of evidence also stating rhe other way around - 'proving' the opposite of the info posted, that they are affected if done below 6 months, its depends where you read. This is the thing, no one 'knows' as of yet, there is not conclusive proof one way or the other.
Hence why no good vet will neuterd under 6 months, which is still too early. 
im all for neutering, dont get me wrong i think all dogs should be, but at the right time for them, behaviourally as well as physically. and that couple of months can make a massive difference.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> ...Amber (was) spayed (at) 6.5-MO and grew to the height of a male -
> at least 4 inches more than the breed standard for a female.


from the AKC breed standard - American Kennel Club - Briard 


> EXCERPT -
> _ Size, Proportions
> Size --
> * males 23 to 27 inches at the withers;
> ...


so Ms have a 4-inch range of min-max, and Fs have 3.5-inches range for min-max - 
NOTE there is no disqualification for taller dogs, only for Under-Minimum. 
at 22-inches minimum for Fs and 25.5-inches as a *preference* for maximum - theres no penalty for over-maximum - 
i am presuming that Ur bitch was 27-inches at the shoulder? *but if she was in proportion, there should be no penalty 
for her extra height - so long as she was slightly-longer than her withers, and not lumbering, double-muscled, bulky, 
slab-sided and high on leg, etc. *

the KC standard has the same height standards as the AKC - 
Briard Breed Standard - The Kennel Club 


> Size
> Height: dogs: 61-69 cms (24-27 ins) at withers; bitches: 58-65 cms (23-25½ ins) at withers. Slight undersize before 18 months, or slight oversize in maturity permissible.


cheers, 
--- terry


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Terry I can't access links out here lol. Anyway, even though statistical evidence suggests otherwise, I believe my 34" (at the shoulder) BM was so tall and had so many problems because we castrated him too early. It's a regret I have to live with, he died at only 5 years old. I'd love to be persuaded that for some other reason he grew taller than all his siblings and every other BM I've ever seen. (and having bred and shown them for years, I've seen a few)

ETA: He was not in proportion at all, he just had VERY long legs and poor muscle tone. I have seen an early castrated Dobe who reminds me of him. It looks strange.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Hi Terry
I decided to look at your links because what you say your links are saying is definitety not what happens.

1. Neutering your male | Dog Time - Getting your boy dog or puppy fixed

This one, the one that you cite as your favoutrite, says:

In general, dogs neutered before they go into puberty grow a bit bigger than those neutered after puberty because testosterone is involved in bone growth; .

Which seems to directly contradict what you are saying.

2. Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

This one, the one that you say is cited over a dozen net links, says:

Orthopedic Considerations
A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks grew significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, who were taller than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed).(1) *A study of 1444 Golden Retrievers performed in 1998 and 1999 also found bitches and dogs spayed and neutered at less than a year of age were significantly taller than those spayed or neutered at more than a year of age.(*2) *The sex hormones, by communicating with a number of other growth-related hormones, promote the closure of the growth plates at puberty (3), so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. Dogs that have been spayed or neutered well before puberty can frequently be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrow chests and narrow skulls. This abnormal growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions and particularly the lengths (and therefore weights) of certain bones relative to others.* For example, if the femur has achieved its genetically determined normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but *the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle likely becomes heavier (because it is longer), and may cause increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament*. In addition, sex hormones are critical for achieving peak bone density.(4) These structural and physiological alterations may be the reason why at least one recent study showed that spayed and neutered dogs had a higher incidence of CCL rupture.(5) Another recent study showed that dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than those spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age, although it should be noted that in this study there were no standard criteria for the diagnosis of hip dysplasia.(6) Nonetheless, breeders of purebred dogs should be cognizant of these studies and should consider whether or not pups they bred were spayed or neutered when considering breeding decisions. 
Cancer Considerations
A retrospective study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs as compared to intact males.(7) *A study of 3218 dogs demonstrated that dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer.(8) A separate study showed that neutered dogs had a two-fold higher risk of developing bone cancer*.(9) Despite the common belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one study suggests that neutering provides no benefit.(10) There certainly is evidence of a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer in female dogs after one heat cycle, and for increased risk with each subsequent heat. While about 30 % of mammary cancers are malignant, as in humans, when caught and surgically removed early the prognosis is very good.(12) Luckily, canine athletes are handled frequently and generally receive prompt veterinary care. 

Terry, these are your links, and your links are merely confirming what I have already said to the OP, and what people on here who have had dogs neutered before puberty have actual experience of - namely that dogs neutered before maturity are at increased risk of abnormal bone growth in the legs, leading to orthopedic problems and a higher cancer risk.

One more point - it is wrong to assume that most dogs mature at about 6-8 months of age. Some dogs, especially the larger breeds, are not fully mature until they are 24 months old.

There are arguments for and against early neutering, and ultimately it is up to the owner to decide what is best for their own dog. Personally, I prefer to go with what nature intended and leave dogs intact unless there is a medical need for surgery. My 9 year old boy, Baggio, has just had to have his testicles removed because he developed a tumour - but as the vet explained, that kind of tumour does not spread. He had a 10 minute op and he is fine now. Much better that than him having abnormal bone growth, being in pain all his life from orthopedic problems, and being at an increased risk of bone cancers that, unlike testicular cancer, could spread through the rest of his body and kill him.


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## Ace (Jan 2, 2010)

if i knew castrating Bruno at 6-7 months would cause in the long run bone and muscle problems i would have never have done it so early however when i rang the rspca who carried out the op they insisted it was the right time to have it done as he also had a retained testicle i dont really mind if he grows bigger than his breed but as it has been stated in the long run it will cause skeletal problems which is a major downside


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I had my SBT castrated at 9 months. He is much taller than he should be (he's a good 6 inches taller than his brother who has never been done) he also isnt as squat as wide as other SBT's. He is leggier and his head isnt as broad. If you stood him next to his brother, you wouldnt think for one second that they were related. He looks more like a cross.

He is however perfectly healthy. At almost 11 years of age he can still go for miles and hours with no ill effects. No bone problems, no joint issues, no arthritis. The worst he suffers from is fatty lumps.

Your dog is going to be much bigger than an SBT, as he is crossed with a much larger breed.

As long as he is fit and healthy, i wouldnt worry too much about his appearance. Just make sure you arent over exercising him at a young age.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

He's a lovely boy - gorgeous pics of him! You did the right thing in having him neutered because a retained testicle can cause all sorts of problems such as cancer and torsion.  When you have to neuter for medical reasons like this you are between a rock and a hard place - all you can do is deal with the present problem - ie the retained testicle - and then bear in mind the kinds of problems the surgery may eventually cause so you are prepared for them and ready to deal with them. I would have done exactly the same in your place. :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Hi Terry
> I decided to look at your links because what you say your links are saying is definitety not what happens.
> ...the one that you cite as your favourite, says:
> In general, dogs *neutered before...puberty grow a bit bigger than those neutered after puberty* because testosterone is involved in bone growth; .
> Which seems to directly contradict what you are saying.


hey, weaver! :--) 
no, it does not contradict - A BIT BIGGER is not 6-inches taller and 40# heavier.  and BEFORE puberty is Under-6-MO.  
its also not my fave - only one that i found simple, straightforward, and frank. 


Spellweaver said:


> 2. Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete [Zink]
> 
> This one, the one that you say is cited over a dozen net links, says:
> Orthopedic Considerations
> A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks grew *significantly taller* than those spayed at 7 months...


thats JUVENILE NEUTER - precisely as i said.  


Spellweaver said:


> ...[those spayed at 7 months] were *taller than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed)*.(1)


how MUCH taller? a millimeter? an inch? 4-inches? 
and what the H*** does **...not spayed, or presumably spayed after (the epiphyses) closed...** MEAN? 
are they intact-bitches, or post-calcification spayed-Fs? 
_*and most of all - how come they cannot stipulate the AGE at which they were *presumably* spayed? * 
that sounds like an incredibly sloppy statement, and a very loosely labeled set of data. 
_


Spellweaver said:


> *A study of 1444 Golden Retrievers performed in 1998 and 1999 also found bitches and dogs spayed and neutered at less than a year of age were significantly taller  than those spayed or neutered at more than a year of age.(*2)


 again - How much is SIGNIFICANT? :blink: 


Spellweaver said:


> *Dogs that have been spayed or neutered well before puberty can frequently be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrow chests and narrow skulls. *


well-before puberty = juvenile neuter - 
juvie = under 12-WO - 
pubertal = 6 to 7-MO. 


Spellweaver said:


> Another recent study showed that dogs spayed or neutered *before 5.5-months* had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia *than those spayed or neutered after 5.5-months of age*, although it should be noted that *in this study there were no standard criteria for the diagnosis of hip dysplasia.*


how do U ** Diagnose ** HIP * DYSPLASIA without any std-criteria? :huh: and 5.5-mos is not 6 to 7-MO - 
Note that *after* 5.5-MO, there is apparently no increased-risk...? 



Spellweaver said:


> Terry, these are your links...


no, *they are not MY * LINKS -* 
they are IME the links most often cited to support a weak argument, 
and the Zink-DVM quote above 
* drags juvie-neuters statistics right in with pubertal statements; 
* makes broad, sweeping allegations with no numerical specifications; 
* and cites one study that sounds as if it was run by 8th-graders, with poorly-segregated data.

== PRESS _ RELEASE - for immediate publication == :thumbup: 
in over 25-years, i have *never* seen any of this alleged *terrible, inevitable* B* S diagnosed among my clients dogs - 
many of whom, AS * I * HAVE * REPEATEDLY * SAID... 
were shelter-adoptees or rescue-pups, desexed as soon as it was legal to separate dam + litter (in shelters) 
or as soon as they had an approved-app (in rescues, which was no younger than 8-WO and rarely over 12-WO... ) 
which means, *they were all juvenile-neuters in the Ms, and juvie-spays in the Fs. *

rather, many of my clients dogs have led happy, active lives, and many ran in agility, Rally-O, HTM, and other dog-sports; 
they swim in ocean surf, they jog with their owners, they bike-jog... 
they are not gargantuan, they do NOT resemble maned-wolves with a large-fox body on stilt-like legs... 
and they don;t have terrible joints, short painful lives, dribble a trail of urine behind them, etc, etc, etc.

have a nice day,  
--- terry


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

No need to be so fescicious, because someone has the audacity to disagree with all that you are aspounding as truths set in stone LFL! Reasoned argument, and pleasant discussion is a much nicer option


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kazschow said:


> No need to be so fescicious, because someone has the audacity to disagree... Reasoned argument, and pleasant discussion is a much nicer option


i was reasoned, kaz -  most of it referred to juvie-desex. 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

kazschow said:


> No need to be so fescicious, because someone has the audacity to disagree with all that you are aspounding as truths set in stone LFL! Reasoned argument, and pleasant discussion is a much nicer option


Totally agree! Rep coming your way for this.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, weaver! :--)
> no, it does not contradict - A BIT BIGGER is not 6-inches taller and 40# heavier.  and BEFORE puberty is Under-6-MO.


No it isn't - puberty can occur from 6 months to 24 months depending upon the breed and size of the dog



leashedForLife said:


> its also not my fave - only one that i found simple, straightforward, and frank.


But you said it was your favourite   - was only quoting what you had said.



leashedForLife said:


> no, *they are not MY * LINKS -*
> they are IME the links most often cited to support a weak argument,


They are the links you used to support your argument - but now you seem to be saying that they are rubbish  



leashedForLife said:


> in over 25-years, i have *never* seen any of this alleged *terrible, inevitable* B* S diagnosed among my clients dogs -
> many of whom, AS * I * HAVE * REPEATEDLY * SAID...
> were shelter-adoptees or rescue-pups, desexed as soon as it was legal to separate dam + litter (in shelters)
> or as soon as they had an approved-app (in rescues, which was no younger than 8-WO and rarely over 12-WO... )
> which means, *they were all juvenile-neuters in the Ms, and juvie-spays in the Fs. *


Well, there are posters on this thread who have said to has happened to their dogs who were neutered early, and you seem to be discounting these. Did you just discount those of your clients whose dogs it happened to in the same way?

Terry, I find it difficult to cut through all the sarcasm, part sentences and different type faces in your reply, but I will try to reply in a sensible manner. You seem to be fixated (wrongly) on the fact that the age of puberty is six months, and advocate that if you neuter after six months everything in the garden is rosy.

This is totally wrong. You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that if you neuter before maturity - note, maturity, not puberty (ie before 24 months in some breeds) - the lack of sex hormones will lead to the formation of osteoclasts which delay the growth plates closing long after they would normally close. The delay in the closing of the growth plates is what causes the extra growth. It's basic orthopedic science. So referring to charts that state growth plates close after a certain number of days is totally irrelevant. Hope this helps you to understand your error. :thumbup:


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## Ace (Jan 2, 2010)

when do staffs usually hit puberty ? and before i got him neutered he did not lift his leg up to pee if that counts for anything..


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that if you *neuter before maturity* - note, maturity, not puberty ...


Zink did not say *maturity*, weaver - :lol: _she said *puberty.*_

Sexual Behavior in Dogs

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Ace said:


> when do staffs usually hit puberty ? and before i got him neutered he did not lift his leg up to pee if that counts for anything..


Don't know hun because I don't have staffies. However, a letter on the forum below says she was advised to neuter between 12 and 24 months, so I'm guessing that's when they mature. I'm sure some staffy owners on here will be able to tell you more accurately than me.

Staffordshire Bull Terrier - Staffy Club Forum &raquo Male Dogs & Keeping Two Staffy's together Â» Staffordshire Bull Terrier - Staffy Club


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Zink did not say *maturity*, weaver - :lol: _he said *puberty.*_
> 
> Sexual Behavior in Dogs
> 
> ...


Terry, sweetie, listen very carefully because I shall say this only once - I am not referring to your links. I am merely stating scientific fact. Once again, the fact is that if you neuter before maturity - note, maturity, not puberty (ie before 24 months in some breeds) - the lack of sex hormones will lead to the formation of osteoclasts which delay the growth plates closing long after they would normally close. The delay in the closing of the growth plates is what causes the extra growth. It's basic orthopedic science. So referring to charts that state growth plates close after a certain number of days is totally irrelevant.

I presume that because you choose a sarcastic reply rather than give a proper comeback to the science that disproves your point, you realise how wrong you were.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I presume that because you choose a sarcastic reply rather than give a proper comeback to the science that disproves your point, you realise how wrong you were.


no ma;am / sir, 
that was not a sarcastic reply - i referred to the same paper that U referenced previously - 
re *before puberty... * and *after puberty...* 


> Originally Posted by Spellweaver
> [snip]... (quoting)
> In general, dogs neutered before...puberty grow a bit bigger than those neutered after puberty because testosterone is involved in bone growth;...


similar statements are to be found in Zink DVM / k9 Athlete, re juvie-neuters.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> no ma;am / sir,
> that was not a sarcastic reply -
> 
> cheers,
> --- terry


Neither was it a proper response to the debate. I see you are still continuing to ignore the scientific facts about neutering before maturity causing the formation of osteoclasts, which in turn prevent bones plates closing, which in turn leads to extra bone growth - ie the very thing you say does not happen, despite being faced with both scientific fact and factual evidence from posters on here.

I will debate with anyone for as long as they give measured responses, but I'm not continuing to keep pointing out the facts which show your errors to have you continually ignore them. I'm off to bed now - I'm working tomorrow.

Good night and Goddess bless.


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Don't know hun because I don't have staffies. However, a letter on the forum below says she was advised to neuter between 12 and 24 months, so I'm guessing that's when they mature. I'm sure some staffy owners on here will be able to tell you more accurately than me.
> 
> Staffordshire Bull Terrier - Staffy Club Forum &raquo Male Dogs & Keeping Two Staffys together Â» Staffordshire Bull Terrier - Staffy Club


i would never neuter a dog in the seondary fear period unless its medically urgent, it can efect the dog behaviourally for life.

there is lots of evidence showing that dogs are effected when castrated too early - however there is not enough proper scientific studies yet to prove when is the correct time to castrate because of these health problems that can and often do occur in dogs neutered too early.

the rspca neuter from as early as 12 weeks - i think its disgusting personally, although i do understand a balance has to be struck when it comes to rescues.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Benefits of Neutering (Castrating) Male Dogs & Puppies 


> EXCERPT -
> _Many animal shelters and veterinarians are starting to neuter male animals at a younger age, even 6-14 weeks of age. This early neutering does not affect the growth rate, and there are no appreciable differences in skeletal, physical, or behavioral development between those animals neutered early than those neutered at a more traditional age.
> It must be remembered that younger animals may need different anesthetics and are more prone to hypothermia (lower than normal body temperature) during surgery. As long as procedures are modified to account for these differences, early neutering is very safe. In fact, animals neutered at a younger age often have faster recoveries than those neutered when they are older. _


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Powered by Google Docs 
please see page-15, less than 1/4th is excerpted here - 
titled, _Dispelling The Myths About Long-term Side-effects of Early Age Desexing_ 
by Virginia P Studdert, Emeritus Professor, Faculty of Veterinary Science, The Univ. of Melbourne



> EXCERPT - *bold + underline added - *
> 
> Closure of growth plates
> _____________________________________________
> ...


cheers, 
--- terry


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I have no scientific data or links to add. However, I do believe my BM had not hit puberty when we had him done. His testicles were hardly noticeable. Its really not a chance I would ever take again. :crying:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re the DVM-Zink article, k9-athlete - 
a link refuting it: Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - all dogs should be neutered

cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i just happened across this on another trainers-list -

DVM-Zinks article re the k9-Athlete is an FAQ on the _sheltermedicine.com_ webiste - 
Frequently Asked Question (FAQ)

there are 3 hyperlinks for further info on the FAQ-post, as well as this update - 


> 1/4/2008 UPDATE
> A Journal Article which addresses this topic has recently been published.
> 
> Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
> ...


the other 2 hyperlinks are in the body of the FAQ-answer.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Powered by Google Docs EXCERPT - bold + underline added -
> 
> Closure of growth plates
> _____________________________________________
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love the way you keep citing articles that actually prove what I say rather than what you say  Have you actually read the bits I've outlined in red?!

Terry, for every article for early neutering that you google, I can google one that is against early neutering. Try this one for instance (just an excerpt printed here):

Spaying and Neutering Dogs Too Early "a Stark Warning"

Because early neutering removes sex hormones, this delays maturation of osteoclasts resulting in the delayed closing of the growth plates of the long leg bones creating leggy taller than average dogs, thereby increasing the risk of some orthopedic disorders such as cruciate ligament disease, and possibly bone cancer.

It was long believed that eunuchs (castrated humans) were castrated to stop them being interested is the ladies of the Harem. However they were also used as palace guards and therefore because of the castration and the affect on the osteoclasts these eunuch's were appreciably taller making them more imposing as guards and soldiers.

_Stan Rawlinson Dip MTCBPT. MPAACT 
Chairman and Founder Member 
Professional Association of Applied Canine Trainers.

Contact details for PAACT

PAACT Professional Association of Applied Canine Trainers 
[email protected] 
0208 979 2019

This article was written by Stan Rawlinson, a full time Dog Behavioural Consultant and Obedience Traimer. 
You can visit his website at <MMString:LoadString id="insertbar/linebreak" /> for more articles and training information. You may freely distribute this article or save to any electronic media as long as it is left intact, including this copyright box._


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JjPhoenix said:


> i would never neuter a dog in the seondary fear period unless its medically urgent, it can efect the dog behaviourally for life.
> 
> there is lots of evidence showing that dogs are effected when castrated too early - however there is not enough proper scientific studies yet to prove when is the correct time to castrate because of these health problems that can and often do occur in dogs neutered too early.
> 
> the rspca neuter from as early as 12 weeks - i think its disgusting personally, although i do understand a balance has to be struck when it comes to rescues.


Totally agree. Except in cases of medical necessity, this process of neutering at such an early seems to be in order to benefit either the rescue agencies, or owners and/or breeders, rather than looking at what is actually best for the dog. From the links Terry keeps posting, it is rife in the USA and I do not like the fact that agencies like the RSPCA - the very agency that should be caring about animals - are following suit.


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> No, it's not a myth, but it all depends on what age you neuter. You will only have trouble if you neuter before the dog is mature - and this can be anything between 10 to 24 months depending upon the size of the dog. If you neuter too early, you prevent the the sex hormones such as testosterone and progesterone being produced. This results in the delayed closing of the growth plates of the long leg bones, which creates leggy, taller than average dogs and increases the risk of some orthopedic disorders such as cruciate ligament disease, hip problems and possibly bone cancer.


Is that the same with bitches?
Our collie bitch was spayed at about 8 monthish (not our descision...the rescue centres!) she pulls her crutiate ligaments everytime she runs and shes extremely tall and leggy for a collie!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I love the way you keep citing articles that actually prove what I say rather than what you say  Have you actually read the bits I've outlined in red?!


yes, i did - Did U?  cuz U missed a crucial bit... 


leashedForLife said:


> Powered by Google Docs
> please see page-15...
> EXCERPT -
> Extended periods of open growth plates might theoretically contribute to bone growth abnormalities
> ...


so actually - no, it does not prove Ur point, *weaver. :lol: gotta watch that fine print, eh?

cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JJAK said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Is that the same with bitches?
> Our collie bitch was spayed at about 8 monthish [by the rescue...] *she pulls her crutiate ligaments every time she runs,* and shes extremely tall and leggy for a collie!


hey, jak! :--)

do U mean this literally - that every time she canters or gallops, she is crippled + cannot walk? 

have U contacted the rescue which placed her for a vet-follow-up? if she needs surgery, they may provide the funds, 
or do the surgery. i hope this helps, 
--- terry


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Shes not quite crippled, just goes lame, buts its recognisably lame (i have horses so i can notice when shes slightely lame but my other half knows nothing and even he can tell!) once shes walked for half hour or so after it walks itsself off, she can still bear all weight on her leg, just compensates the way she walks and has to swing her body when she has hurt herself.

iv looked through all her notes etc and theres no mention of crutiate damage, if she walks for about 1 1/2 hours before she runs then she doesnt become lame. 

Iv also contacted the rescue centre and they were no help at all, asked them to send me her vaccination card aswell as it was not given to me when we adopted her and they sent me a card for a male dog called spring but everything else on the card was jess' details...strange!!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> yes, i did - Did U?  cuz U missed a crucial bit...
> 
> "Neither has been shown to be the case in long-term
> follow-up studies. "
> ...


Well actually, as the number of "follow up studies" referred to both cats and dogs, so the actual amount of dogs followed up is questionable - ie the evidence is flawed. So no, I didn't miss a crucial bit - I ignored an irrelevant bit.

In addition, I would question the validity of this study. It was produced by the Cats Protection Society of Victoria in order to justify their neutering kittens at a very early age, and vet undertaking the study just happens to be the resident vet at the Cats Protection Society of Victoria. A bit like the firms who sell cigarettes finding evidence that smoking does not cause all sorts of illness, methinks!

I notice you are still ignoring the relevance of osteoclasts!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JJAK said:


> Is that the same with bitches?
> Our collie bitch was spayed at about 8 monthish (not our descision...the rescue centres!) she pulls her crutiate ligaments everytime she runs and shes extremely tall and leggy for a collie!


Yes - it is the same for bitches as well. If a bitch is spayed before maturity the lack of oestrogen causes osteoclasts to form, which delays the closing of the bone plates and hence causes extra bone growth in the legs. This in turn causes cruciate ligament damage.

Sadly, this is yet more proof that spaying too early causes problems.


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Yes - it is the same for bitches as well. If a bitch is spayed before maturity the lack of oestrogen causes osteoclasts to form, which delays the closing of the bone plates and hence causes extra bone growth in the legs. This in turn causes cruciate ligament damage.
> 
> Sadly, this is yet more proof that spaying too early causes problems.


So because my bitch was spayed too early this could be the cause of her pulling her ligaments when she runs?

Its a shame, I dont get why people spay so early if the evidence is right infront of us!! surely theres enough dogs int he world with these issues that someone would realise their is a definative link and put a age ristriction on spaying/neutering!?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JJAK said:


> So because my bitch was spayed too early this could be the cause of her pulling her ligaments when she runs?
> 
> Its a shame, I dont get why people spay so early if the evidence is right infront of us!! surely theres enough dogs int he world with these issues that someone would realise their is a definative link and put a age ristriction on spaying/neutering!?


There are plenty of such studies around. But it is in the interest of the animal shelters' pockets that dogs are neutered and spayed at as early an age as possible, and so they promote early spaying and produce studies that seem to be scientifically based until you look into them and find much of what they say is ambiguous. Then you get people believing the studies and promoting them on forums like these, and ignoring the studies that do prove the opposite - so the ordinary person in the street ends up not knowing what to believe.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> From the links Terry keeps posting, *it is rife in the USA* and I do not like the fact that agencies like the RSPCA - the very agency that should be caring about animals - are following suit.


errrmmm - weaver, as U obviously did not read the rest of the article, and misquoted the snippet that i posted, 
i will post another excerpt - note that this veterinary-paper discusses *juvenile desex at 12-WO or less - 
* not pubertal AKA traditional at 6-MO to 7-MO; and that in Oz, juvie-desex is called EAD - *E*arly *A*ge *D*esex.

from this link - 
Powered by Google Docs


> page 3 -
> 
> Early age desexing of puppies & kittens
> 
> ...


ergo 7 years ago - 


> page 5 - the forward, *bold added - *
> Foreword
> 
> _ Dear Veterinary Colleagues,
> ...





> *bottom of page 6 - *
> 
> From similar needs to address the pet overpopulation problem,
> particularly in relation to cats, Australia followed the USA in the early 1990s and to date many thousands of EADs have been performed safely and with no long term deleterious side effects. The profession is now being asked to help promote this to the wider community, and there are several good reasons to do so:
> ...


so broad-scale juvie-desex has been in place across Australia for 7 years now, and is also common in other countries 
around the world - its not as tho this is merely a USA-quirk.  in the USA, the longest-running juvie-desex program is 
in Denver, Colorado, at the municipal shelter; it began in 1974... so 36 years ago; they were early-adopters.

literally millions of juvie-desex surgeries have been done, and the Denver Dumb-Friends League alone does 9,000 per year. 
Pet Overpopulation-Dumb Friends League/Humane Society of Denver 


> EXCERPT - *bold added - *
> _ In Colorado alone, 164,988 cats and dogs entered shelters and rescue groups *in 2008. In the metro-Denver area, 61,034 were received at 10 shelters.* Seventy-five percent of these pets were placed in homes or reunited with owners, but 14,359 were euthanized (8,454 cats; 5,905 dogs).
> 
> The Dumb Friends League is working with other shelters and animal welfare organizations to reduce the number of unwanted litters that are born, increase the number of lost pets that are rehomed and increase the number of relinquished pets adopted to new homes.
> ...


more info - 
Alley Cat Allies - Veterinary Care Guide

cheers, 
--- terry


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> There are plenty of such studies around. But it is in the interest of the animal shelters' pockets that dogs are neutered and spayed at as early an age as possible.


Makes me slightly mad, my dog had 3 homes before mine and when you read her notes they sent her to new homes with stomach/intestine parasites but yet insisted that she were spayed, Surely it would be in the interest of the dogs welfare to get rid of a disease/bug thing before spaying her. Doesnt it cost to spay the dog in the first place, couldnt they rehome them and then advise new owners to have them spayed and to follow up checks to ensure this is done?

Im not trying to start and arguement, im just wondering!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JJAK said:


> Makes me slightly mad, my dog had 3 homes before mine and when you read her notes they sent her to new homes with stomach/intestine parasites but yet insisted that she were spayed, Surely it would be in the interest of the dogs welfare to get rid of a disease/bug thing before spaying her. Doesnt it cost to spay the dog in the first place, couldnt they rehome them and then advise new owners to have them spayed and to follow up checks to ensure this is done?
> 
> Im not trying to start and arguement, im just wondering!


I totally agree with you hun, so no arguments from me! I disagree with early neutering/spaying. In fact I think it's bordering on cruelty because of the problems it causes - and I think that anyone who advocates it on anything other than immediate medical grounds needs to look closely at their ethics for doing so.


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Surely it would be better to let the animal mature, the lack of testosterone/oestogen must also have an impact on mental growth, therefore more dogs growing up with 'issues' that could of been prevented had they been left to be puppies and enjoy growing up?!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Yes - some studies show that dogs/bitches who are spayed too early never progress past being a "junior" - ie they never mentally grow up.

Stan Rawlinson explains the dangers of Spaying and Castration (Neutering) young Dogs

_I noted some seven years ago that the incidence of frustration, lack of attention, and puppy like behaviour, appeared to be far more prevalent in dogs that were castrated and spayed at a younger age, rather than those that were allowed to mature naturally before attempting this operation.

As behavioural consultants and obedience trainers, I find that we are treating many more cases where dogs are displaying (paedomorphic) tendencies. That is puppy like behaviour's in adult dogs, which I believe is related to the incidence of early spaying and neutering.

I also observed that bitches spayed too early, may be far more interesting to intact males; unwanted male attention can cause the female to become aggressive and protective of this attention in adulthood._[/I]


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I also observed that bitches spayed too early, may be far more interesting to intact males; unwanted male attention can cause the female to become aggressive and protective of this attention in adulthood.[/I][/I]


Hmmmmm, it answers alot of questions!

we originally thought our collie had been attacked, as when another dog approaches her she gets extremely defensive, hackles up etc...although she doesnt attack or anything...she cant stand another dog in her personal space, yet is alright if she approaches them.

Shes not bothered by other bitches in the slightest, she will walk past them asif they wernt even there, however she has enormous problems with male dogs.

It also answers why its like having a 6 week old puppy when shes just over a year (i know shes not fully grown etc!) but she has no concept of her size, she still plays like a 6 week old puppy, needs attention like a 6week old pup etc.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Yes, spaying/neutering too early has a lot to answer for. Your girl was spayed at 8 months and she has all these problems - I dread to think what sort of problems are in store for puppies who are neutered younger than that - some agencies/individuals have even advocated neutering at 6 weeks! 

ETA - here is a more in depth discussion about the effects of neutering you may find interesting

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/neutering_definitive.shtml

(nb this is not Caesar Milan!)


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Personally iv never had a dog spayed or neutered until we got jess, i actually dread to think of the state some of the puppies done at 6 weeks are in, jess was found at 7 months so at least she had a small amount of time to mature, but dear god help the ones that dont even get a chance!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I have to say it's not ALL dogs that are affected. I do know a lot of dogs who were neutered early and have no problems.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Well actually, as the number of "follow up studies" referred to both cats and dogs, so the actual amount of dogs followed up is questionable - ie the evidence is flawed. So no, I didn't miss a crucial bit - I ignored an irrelevant bit.


here are the citations of the Aus. Vet-paper circa 2003 - 
Powered by Google Docs
*dogs are in red,* *cats are in blue, and studies of both are in purple. * :thumbup: nothing like some cheerful color, to brighten things up! 


> EXCERPT - page 19 -
> *Color and bold are added - *
> 
> _ *References*
> ...


*6 studies on dogs alone, 
8 on cats alone, 
4 on dogs + cats both. a total of 10 out of 18 involved dogs. *

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> here are the citations of the Aus. Vet-paper circa 2003 -
> Powered by Google Docs
> *dogs are in red,* *cats are in blue, and studies of both are in purple. * :thumbup: nothing like some cheerful color, to brighten things up!
> 
> ...


(Opens eyes wide, puts finger to lips and adopts little girly voice) Oooh, Terry, thank you for putting all the pretty colours in because I never would have managed to understand it before.

(reverts to no-nonsense adult) There is just one small point you don't seem to have noticed in your eagerness to patronise me - I was talking about the evidence for long term follow ups being flawed and these are not the references for the long term follow ups - for example, the third one in your list is

Howe, LM. 
Short-term results and complications of prepubertal gonadectomy in cats and dogs. 
J Am Vet Med Assoc (1997) 211:57-62.

(Thought I'd outline the significant bit in red as you seem to like colours)

So as I said before, the evidence for the long term follow up results is flawed.

Just a note of caution -I am able to read and, furthermore, I am able to analyse what I read instead of just believeing all the pretty words. Perhaps you should bear that in mind.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I think its time or you two to agree to differ


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> I think its time or you two to agree to differ


Of course we can agree to differ - I have no problem in agreeing I'm right and he's wrong! 

No, seriously, I fully believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and that everyone is entitled to express that opinion, but whatever the subject, if I see that someone is advocating something that could cause harm to animals I have to point out that I think they are wrong, especially on an open forum like this. And I truly believe that, despite all Terry's posts, early neutering for anything other than medical reasons causes more harm than good and borders on cruelty.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JJAK said:


> ...Doesnt it cost to spay the dog in the first place, couldnt they rehome them and then advise new owners to have them spayed and to follow up checks to ensure this is done?
> 
> Im not trying to start and arguement, im just wondering!


in a word, jak? 
 sadly, no - _once the animal leaves their possession, getting the new-owner to do ANYthing that they do not want to do, 
is not only virtually impossible, it co$ts a lot of money. _

even with an iron-clad contract stating that the animal MUST be desexed by X-time, with the adopter signing it, 
and proof of ID + address for follow-up, by the time the check-date rolls around, any number of claims can be made: 
* _she / he ran away... _ :yikes:

* _we gave the (dog, cat, rabbit, ___ ) away, but the new owners PROMISED they would do it!_ :eek6:

* _ s/he died... _ - but often the adopter cannot produce any record of end-stage treatment for their pet 

if the adopters actually DID give the animal away, no claim can be made of the 2nd-party, as they did not sign a contract - 
but the original adopter may be fined + given a summons, as the only party they were legally allowed to transfer the animal to was... U guessed it... the original adopting-agency. :blush2:

if they actually ADMIT that *A,* they still have the pet, and *B,* the pet is still intact, then U gotta go to court... 
a long and murderously expensive proceeding, with legal fees eating the shelter / rescue budget - which is better spent 
on food, vet-bills, rent, staff wages, cleaning supplies, and all the rest of their everyday co$ts.

U only have to have 1 or 2 non-compliant adopters to bankrupt a small rescue; 
_even with a S/N contract, the average ratio of INTACT 
adopted animals (IOW not desexed) in the USA is over-40% - 
without a contract, it runs close to 80%. _

so no, allowing dogs, cats, rabbits, ferrets, etc, to LEAVE intact is not a good idea - and no matter how many times U swear 
that U will do it, U promise, most agencies say flatly, *No.* they have learned thru bitter experience that its better 
to desex the animal themselves.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Yes - some studies show that dogs/bitches who are spayed too early never progress past being a "junior" - ie they never mentally grow up.
> 
> Stan Rawlinson explains the dangers of Spaying and Castration (Neutering) young Dogs
> 
> _I noted some seven years ago that... _


_
pardon me, weaver - 
but that is not a veterinary study, U are citing an opinion.

all my best, 
--- terry_


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> pardon me, weaver -
> but that is not a veterinary study, U are citing an opinion.
> 
> all my best,
> --- terry


How many times must I tell you this before it sinks in? I know how to read. Follow the links, sweetie, and you will see all the studies upon which he has based his opinion.

Here they are for you if you can't be bothered:

(If you follow the original link, clicking on the vets and experts names allows you to see the full articles.)

_

"Castration at an early age will cause the dog to become overly tall, as the growth plates in the long bones will not close at the appropriate time; additionally, the dog will lack breadth of chest. The combination of these two factors sets the stage for your dog to have painful orthopaedic problems."

"The statement that your dog will not automatically gain weight is rubbish. Removing sexual hormones will change his metabolism and make your dog more sluggish, resulting almost inevitably in weight gain. Also, muscle tone will decline after castration, and the classic result of this is a fat dog in poor muscle tone that ends up having a cruciate ligament rupture in the knee"

Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.

"Spayed females have a 4 times greater risk of cardiac hemangiosarcomas, and neutered males also show a significant increased risk for this cancer compared to intact ones."

"Another cancer Dr Hahn discusses that deserves mention is prostate cancer because a lot of people erroneously believe that castration prevents this. In reality, it does not. In fact, castrated dogs have up to a 4 times greater risk of developing prostate cancer than intact animals. At the same time, spayed or neutered dogs have a 1.5 to 3 times greater chance of developing bladder cancer. Because of this, rectal examinations and abdominal palpation should always be part of a routine veterinary physical examination."

"The link between sterilization and osteosarcoma (i.e. bone cancer) is also troubling: Spayed and neutered animals are twice as likely to develop this cancer. Those spayed or castrated before their first birthdays had a roughly 1 in 4 lifetime risk for osteosarcoma and were significantly more likely to develop a tumor than intact dogs."

Dr Kevin Hahn (Veterinary Oncologist)

Research since 1990 has shown that spay and neuter surgeries may have specific drawbacks as well as benefits. Dogs neutered before puberty tend to have longer legs, flatter chests, and narrower skulls than intact dogs of their breeds because the hormones that regulate sexual activity also interact with hormones that guide growth of muscles, bones, and tendons.

These physical differences can place more stress on joints and can cause problems for active dogs, especially those in training for agility and those that work in physically stressful jobs.

Additional drawbacks specific to spay surgery include increased incidence of bladder incontinence, triple the frequency of thyroid disease, and higher risk of some cancers, joint problems, and obesity and adverse reactions to vaccinations.

Laura J. Sanborn, M.S. of Rutgers University,

A recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.

A retrospective study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs as compared to intact males.

A study of 3218 dogs demonstrated that dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer.(8) A separate study showed that neutered dogs had a two-fold higher risk of developing bone cancer. Despite the common belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one study suggests that neutering provides no benefit.

There certainly is evidence of a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer in female dogs after one heat cycle, and for increased risk with each subsequent heat. While about 30 % of mammary cancers are malignant, as in humans, when caught and surgically removed early the prognosis is very good.,

Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP_

*And now I am heartily sick and tired of your patronising me so I am off to bed before I post something I will regret in the morning.

Night night sweetie!*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> ...the evidence for the long term follow up results is flawed.


how many long-term follow-up studies would U like, weaver? 

we aim to please... 
cheera, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*bold and underline added - *

Rebuttal to Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete -

Lisa M. Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS
Assoc. Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief
Surgical Sciences Section Dept. of Veterinary Small Animal Clinical Sciences 
College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences 
Texas A&M University College Station, TX, 77843

I have written a rebuttal to Dr. Zinks article entitled Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete in which Dr. Zink attempts to make an argument for revisiting the standard protocol in which all dogs that are not intended for breeding are spayed and neutered at or before 6 months of age.

In his discussion, Dr. Zink quotes manuscripts incorrectly in some instances, doesnt present all of the data from given studies (ie, misrepresenting the findings of the studies) in other instances, and doesnt include the interpretation of the data by the studys authors (leading to erroneous interpretations of some data by Dr. Zink) in yet other instances.

While I typically dont write rebuttals to others writings, or opinions (after all, we are all entitled to our opinions), the multiple errors and misrepresentations of the scientific literature quoted in this dissertation compelled me to set the record straight with regard to the literature being incorrectly cited by Dr. Zink. While I respectfully disagree with Dr. Zinks opinion on the appropriate age at which to spay and castrate dogs not intended for breeding, my primary purpose for this rebuttal is to present the literature that Dr. Zink cites in a more accurate, and more complete, fashion so that the veterinarian reader may reach their own conclusions regarding the most appropriate time to spay or castrate the nonbreeding animal, based upon accurate representation of the scientific literature.

Orthopedic Considerations
Dr. Zink points out correctly that in Salmeris 15-month study (examining the effects of prepubertal gonadectomy on skeletal growth, weight gain, food intake, body fat, and secondary sex characteristics in 32 mixed-breed dogs neutered at seven weeks or seven months or left intact) that bitches spayed at 7 weeks grew significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, and that *those spayed at 7 months has significantly delayed closure of the growth plates (but didnt grow significantly taller) than those not spayed* (Salmeri, 1991). 
However, the concerns expressed by Dr. Zinc regarding changes in stifle joint angles are not supported by any existing literature, and dont make sense as an argument against early age gonadectomy (ie, gonadectomy performed well before 6 months of age). Since the animal that is gonadectomized early will not have likely had closure of any of the hind limb long bone physes, it stands to reason that *closure of all of the physes will be delayed resulting in longer, but proportional, bone growth as related to the stifle joint.* 
In fact, Salmeris study did not identify any changes in the proportional nature of bone growth of the forelimb (she was studying growth and maturation of the radius and ulna). It seems that Dr. Zink may be arguing against performing gonadectomy during the time period between 7 or 8 months of age and final closure of all the growth plates, which isnt relevant to a discussion of early age gonadectomy.

Dr. Zinks speculation regarding joint angles cannot be applied to, and isnt discussed in, the article cited regarding increased incidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in gonadectomized dogs. There is no information in the article (Cooley, 2002) as to the timing of gonadectomy in the study population, so there is no way of knowing if animals were spayed/castrated after adulthood, at the traditional age, or at an early age, and it is, therefore, not appropriate for Dr. Zinc to be applying his theory to that article. *In fact, in the article, bone lengths and joint angles are never mentioned, and the authors speculate their findings may be attributable to: alterations in sex hormones may affect the size, shape, or material properties of the ACL. *

Regarding hip dysplasia, long-term studies have examined the incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs and the association with age at gonadectomy, and Dr. Zink quotes one of them. The study of 1842 dogs found that early age gonadectomy was associated with a significant increased incidence of hip dysplasia (Spain, 2004). *Puppies that underwent gonadectomy before 5.5 months of age had a 6.7% incidence of hip dysplasia*, *while those that underwent gonadectomy at the more traditional age had an incidence of 4.7%.* However, Dr. Zink fails to note the additional finding of that study which included finding that *those dogs that were gonadectomized at the traditional age were three times more likely to be euthanized for the condition as compared to the early age group, leading the authors to suggest that early age gonadectomy may be associated with a less severe form of hip dysplasia.*

Cancer Considerations
Dr. Zink states: 
There is a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer if a female dog has one heat cycle. Others would tend to believe, based on the scientific literature, that there is more than a slightly increased risk. * In fact, the literature states that the risk of developing mammary tumors in dogs spayed prior to the first estrus is 0.5%, 8% after the first estrus, and after the second estrus the risk will increase to 26% (Schneider, 1969).* The sparing effect of OHE is lost after females have cycled more than twice or are older than 2.5-4 years of age. Hence, this is one of the reasons veterinarians recommend spaying before the first heat cycle. Mammary neoplasms are the most common tumors of the female dog (MacEwen, 1996). * Additionally, the rate of malignancy of mammary tumors in dogs is typically considered to be closer to 50% (rather than the 30% stated by Dr. Zink) and clearly a significant problem in the intact female dog (Brodey, 1983; Gilbertson, 1983). Dr. Zink then goes on to state his own personal belief that canine athletes have more problems with cranial cruciate ligament injury than with mammary neoplasia. Clearly, there is no information in the literature to support such a statement, or comparison. This is comparing apples and oranges, and not appropriate.* As with human athletes, it is probably appropriate to believe that the canine athlete will suffer athletic injuries (ie, torn cruciate ligaments, etc.), but to compare disease entities, and make statements about the prevalence of these entities (based upon personal biases) is not valid.

Related to the incidence of cardiac tumors, the study by Ware, et al., has been misquoted when Dr. Zink stated that: A retrospective study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs as compared to intact males. * The study, in fact, stated that the relative risk of a tumor in intact males was 2.44 times the risk in intact females (Ware, 1999). That study did show that the relative risk for hemangiosarcoma in spayed females was >5 times that for intact females, but that castrated males had only a slightly greater risk (1.6 times) of developing a heart tumor than did intact males. The exact cause for the increased risk in spayed females, as compared to intact females was not identified.* It is important to recognize that *cardiac tumors are not common compared to other tumor types (including mammary neoplasia in the intact bitch) and the overall incidence of cardiac tumors in that study was 0.19%.*

Osteosarcoma has been demonstrated in some studies to occur more frequently in gonadectomized dogs, however, one of the studies cited by Dr. Zink has been mischaracterized. Dr. Zink describes Cooleys study as a study of 3218 dogs in which dogs neutered before a year of age were found to have a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer. *In reality, however, Cooleys study is a study of 683 Rottweiler-breed dogs (Cooley, 2002). Rottweilers were selected for the study, as stated by the authors of the study, because their risk of bone sarcoma is very high compared with other breeds. The study found that bone sarcoma was diagnosed in 12.6% of the dogs, and that male and female dogs that underwent gonadectomy before 1 year of age (cant be defined as early age gonadectomy) were significantly more likely to develop bone sarcoma than dogs that were sexually intact. 
The second study quoted by Zink did indeed find a twofold higher risk of osteosarcoma among neutered dogs as compared to intact dogs (Ru, 1998). This study involved 3062 purebred dogs with osteosarcoma as compared to 3959 purebred dogs without osteosarcoma. However, in that study, no information was reported regarding when surgical neutering took place, so it is inappropriate to apply this article to arguments pertaining to early age gonadectomy.

Regarding the relation of castration and neoplasia, it is well documented that prostatic neoplasia occurs in both intact and neutered male dogs, and that castration does not protect against the development of prostatic carcinoma (Obradovich, 1987; Krawieic, 1992; Bell, 1991; Barsanti, 2003). However, it is also well documented in the scientific literature that castration (including early castration) does help prevent other prostatic diseases seen in intact male dogs including benign prostatic hyperplasia, cystic hyperplasia, squamous metaplasia, paraprostatic cysts, prostatitis, and prostatic abscessation (Berry, 1986; Black, 1998; Cohen, 1995; White, 1987; Barsanti, 2003; Cowan, 1991; White, 1995; Hardie, 1984; Mullen, 1990).

Behavioral Considerations
Dr. Zink begins the discussion of behavioral considerations by incorrectly stating that The study that identified a higher incidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in spayed or neutered dogs also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early (Slauterbeck, 2004). 
In fact, Slauterbecks paper never mentions anything about sexual behaviors. 
The next paper cited is Spains paper which did demonstrate an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors in the dogs undergoing early age gonadectomy (Spain, 2004). 
Dr. Zink fails to point out other behaviors that were decreased in dogs gonadectomized before 5.5 months, including escaping behavior, separation anxiety, and urinating in the house when frightened. The study also found that three behaviors were significantly associated with age at gonadectomy for males but not females, and included aggression towards family members, barking or growling at visitors, and excessive barking that bothered a household member. These three behaviors were significantly associated with one another, and were seen more frequently in males gonadectomized before 5.5 months of age. 
When looking at all the behaviors taken together, authors found that overall, the relinquishment rate was lowest among dogs gonadectomized before 5.5 months (7.5%), whereas those gonadectomized > 5.5 months of age had a higher relinquishment rate (10.4%). 
Howes study of 269 dogs also showed that early age gonadectomy was not associated with higher return rate or increased rate of placement in another home after adoption, compared with traditional age gonadectomy (Howe, 2001).  In that study, there was no difference in the incidence of overall or specific behavioral problems between age groups.

Regarding the recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation, Dr. Zink stated that the study reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. 
However, upon reading the reference cited by Dr. Zink, there is no such finding reported in the paper ( HYPERLINK 
http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/Biennial_National_Parent_Club_Canine_Health_Conference.pdf

2005). 
The report does, however, note 2 behaviors seen more frequently in neutered animals and the paper states that male dogs had more aggression behavior problems and that females were more fearful. These differences were even more extreme when looking at only neutered animals, even after excluding animals neutered for behavior problems.  
The reference states that dogs were 1 year of age when studied, but doesnt report when dogs underwent gonadectomy (ie, at an early age or at the traditional age). 

Dr. Zink goes on to state that another study showed that unneutered males were significantly less likely than neutered males to suffer cognitive impairment when they were older (Hart, 2001). 
However, that study did not show that intact males were less likely than neutered males to suffer cognitive disorders when they were older. 
In fact, results of the paper demonstrated that there were no significant differences among groups (gender status) in regard to percentages of dogs that progressed from not having any impairments to having impairments in 1 category or to having impairments in > 2 categories. Hence, the study showed that neutered male dogs were not any more likely to suffer cognitive disorders than intact dogs.  
However, what the study did show in dogs that were already affected, was that the percentage of dogs that progressed from being mildly impaired (ie, impairments in 1 behavioral category) at the time of the first interview to being severely impaired (ie, impairments in > 2 categories) at the time of the second interview was significantly higher for neutered than sexually intact male dogs. However, it is important to note that the animals in this study were spayed at a mean age of 2.8 years (SD, 0.1) and the mean age for castration of the male dogs was 4.8 years (SD, 1.2), making the paper irrelevant to a discussion of early age gonadectomy.

Other Health Considerations
Dr. Zink mentions other health considerations that should be considered when deciding whether the canine athlete should undergo gonadectomy at, or before, 6 months of age. 
Dr. Zink states: A number of studies have shown that there is an increase in the incidence of female urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early, and gives one reference for this (Stocklin-Gautschi, 2001). Indeed, there have been several studies that have demonstrated an increased incidence of urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early, as well as a study that demonstrated a much higher incidence of urinary incontinence (20.1%) in bitches spayed after the first estrus, as compared to those spayed before the first estrus (Arnold, 1992). In fact, in the reference (Stocklin-Gautschi, 2001) that Dr. Zink quotes, the authors go on to interpret the findings of their study in relation to similarly performed studies, and then state in the discussion: A comparison of the present results with those of Arnold, et al. (1992) indicates that the risk of urinary incontinence is lower in early spayed bitches than in bitches spayed after the first oestrus, but that the clinical signs of the affected animals are significantly more pronounced.  The authors continue and state: However, assuming that most incontinent bitches respond well to medication, this factor is of minor importance. This relative disadvantage of early spaying is negligible when compared with the benefits, such as lower incidence of urinary incontinence and the protection against mammary tumours.

On the other hand, the recent study of 1842 dogs by Spain, et al., demonstrated that there was an increased incidence of urinary incontince in female dogs, with the risk being greatest in females gonadectomized before 3 months of age, compared with those gonadectomized at, or after, 3 months of age (Spain, 2004). Based upon their findings, Spain concludes: Because urinary incontinence was greater among puppies gonadectomized before 3 months of age and incontinence can be a lifelong condition requiring ongoing treatment, it is reasonable to conclude that female dogs should not be gonadectomized until at least 3 to 4 months of age.  
The authors continue: 
This may be particularly prudent for a shelter that does not have an excess of puppies and is focused on reducing medical and behavioral conditions that could lead to relinquishment of adolescent and adult dogs. Conversely, for shelters with excess puppies, the advantages of gonadectomy of all dogs before adoption may outweigh the risk of urinary incontinence.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Dr. Zink also points out that neutering of male dogs has been associated with an increased likelihood of urethral sphincter incontinence (Aaron, 1996) and seems to imply that early neutering plays a role in this. 
However, when one examines Aarons paper, it becomes obvious that the *dogs that developed urethral sphincter incompetency following castration were adult dogs when castrated, with the median age of onset of urinary incontinence being 6 years (range 6 months to 10.5 years), and the median period between castration and the onset of incontinence being 10 days (range immediately) to 18 months.* 
Clearly, this paper should not be quoted as an argument against early neutering (or late neutering, for that matter) in male dogs. Urethral sphincter incompetency is quite uncommon in male dogs, and is likely multifactorial in nature, considering male dogs dont tend to respond well to hormonal replacement (Aaron, 1996). When one considers the incidence of prostatic hyperplasia, cysts, and abscesses in older male dogs (much higher than urethral sphincter incompentency), and the potential life threatening nature of some of these problems, the role for castration in preventative health care for male dogs becomes obvious.

Hypothyroidism is cited as another health reason to avoid early gonadectomy.

Dr. Zink is correct that both the cited references 
( HYPERLINK 
http://www.grca.org/healthsurvey.pdf 
Panciera, 1994)
do demonstrate that hypothyroidism occurs more commonly in gonadectomized dogs (including the Golden Retriever breed) than in intact dogs. While there is an association, the overall incidence of hypothyroidism is 0.2% in canines (Panciera, 1994) - although it may be higher in certain breeds such as the Golden Retriever and Doberman Pinscher. 
*It would not be prudent to discourage spaying/castrating of dogs (early or not) to prevent a disease with such a low incidence that has a good response to treatment in most dogs (Panciera, 1994), when other diseases have much higher incidences (mammary neoplasia, pyometra, prostatic hyperplasia, etc.) and may not have as favorable an outcome.*

Infectious diseases are cited as another reason to avoid early gonadectomy. While Dr. Zink does correctly state the findings of the cited reference which were that infectious diseases were more common in dogs spayed/castrated at 24 weeks of age or less as compared to those undergoing gonadectomy at more than 24 weeks (Howe, 2001), Dr. Zink fails to point out the conclusions of the author related to this issue. 
*Howe notes in that article that: Parvoviral enteritis was the most commonly reported infectious disease and was reported exclusively in dogs that underwent prepubertal gonadectomy. Parvovirus enteritis is common from puppies from shelter environments, but uncommon in older dogs. The potential influence of anesthesia and surgery on the incidence of parvoviral enteritis in puppies that underwent gonadectomy could not be determined in our study, because comparisons with puppies that did not undergo gonadectomy were not performed.* 
Spains study of 1842 dogs also found that dogs gonadectomized before 5.5 months had a significantly greater incidence of parvoviral enteritis (as compared to those gonadectomized later), but went on to say: In that study (Howe, 2001), as with ours, however, *the increased rate of parvovirus infection probably represented increased susceptibility of dogs < 6 months of age during the periadoption period* and not long-term immune suppression or long-term susceptibility as a result of early-age gonadectomy (Spain, 2004).

Interestingly, *Dr. Zink did not address one of the major health concerns of the unspayed bitch which is pyometra*, a potentially life threatening condition. Pyometra occurs at a very high rate in unspayed bitches, and the incidence has been reported to approach 66% in bitches over 9 years of age (Johnston, 2001). Unlike the United States, *in Scandinavian countries, female dogs are at risk of developing pyometra since elective neutering of healthy bitches is seldom performed, resulting in only 7% of bitches being spayed* (Egenvall, 1999). A recent study in Sweden was conducted to assess the incidence of pyometra in bitches using data obtained from a Swedish pet insurance company, and it was found that overall, *almost 25% of the insured dog population had developed pyometra by 10 years of age. In the three breeds at highest risk of developing the disease (rough-haired Collie, Rottweiler, Bernese Mountain Dog), approximately 50% of the bitches had experienced pyometra before reaching 10 years of age (Hagman, 2004). Pyometra can be a life threatening, and expensive to treat, condition that occurs with much greater frequency than rupture of the cranial cruciate ligament or cardiac tumors, and can easily be prevented by ovariohysterectomy. *

In summary, while I respectfully disagree with Dr. Zink as to the most appropriate time at which to gonadectomize the animal that is not used for breeding purposes, *it is important for any veterinarian to base their decisions upon a well versed understanding of the scientific literature.* As new studies are performed, and our knowledge base grows as to the effects, both good and bad, of sterilization of pet animals (including early age gonadectomy), current recommendations may (or may not) be changed.

With regard to the canine athlete, *I would encourage those who feel that they are seeing certain problems more frequently in animals that have undergone early age gonadectomy (as compared to traditional age gonadectomy) to collect, and analyze, data and contribute the information to the scientific literature. Until such studies are performed, anecdotal information remains just that  anecdotal, unverified, and unsuitable for making broad sweeping recommendations regarding the appropriateness of spaying and castrating (at any age) animals that are not used for breeding purposes *(or for making recommendations regarding tubal ligation/vasectomy which clearly dont have the same health benefits as gonadectomy).

References:
Aaron A, Eggleton K, Power C, Holt PE. 
Urethral sphincter mechanism incompetence in male 
dogs: a retrospective analysis of 54 cases. 
Vet Rec. 139:542-6, 1996

Arnold S, Arnold P, Hubler M, et al. 
Urinary incontinence in spayed bitches: prevalence 
and breed predisposition. 
Eur J Companion Anim Pract 2:65-68, 1992

Barsanti J. 
Diseases of the prostate gland. (Morgan, ed.) 
Handbook of Small Animal Practice, 4th edition. p. 577

Bell FW, Klausner JS, Hayden DW, et al. 
Clinical and pathologic features of prostatic adenocarcinoma 
in secually intact and castrated dogs: 31 cases (1970-1987). 
J Am Vet Med Assoc 199:1623-1630, 1991

Berry SJ, Coffey DS, Strandberg JD, et al. 
Effect of age, castration and testosterone replacement on the 
development and restoration of canine benign hyperplasia. 
Prostate 9:295, 1986

Berry SJ, Strandberg JD, Saunders WJ, et al. 
Development of canine benign prostatic hyperplasia with age. 
Prostate 9:363, 1986

Black GM, Ling GV, Nyland TC, et al. 
Prevalence of prostatic cysts in adult, large-breed dogs. 
J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 34:177, 1998

Brodey RS, Goldschmidt MA, Roszel JR. 
Canine mammary gland neoplasms. 
J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 19:61-90, 1983

Cohen Sm, Werrmann JG, Rasmusson GH, et al. 
Comparison of the effects of new specific azasteroid inhibitors 
of steroid 5-alpha-reductase on canine hyperplastic prostate: 
suppression of prostatic DHT correlated with prostate regression. 
Prostate 26:55, 1995

Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, 
Glickman LT, Waters D, 
Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers 
Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40

Cowan LA, Barsanti JA, Crowell WA, et al. 
Effects of castration on chronic bacterial prostatitis in dogs. 
J Am Vet Med Assoc 199:346, 1991

Egenvall, A., Hedhammar, Å., Bonnett, et al. 
Survey of the Swedish dog population: age, gender, breed, 
location and enrolment in animal insurance. 
Acta veterinaria scandinavica 40, 231-240, 1999

Gilbertson SR, Kurzman ID, Zachrau RE, et al. 
Canine mammary epithelial neoplasms: Biological 
implications of morphologic characteristics assessed in 232 dogs. 
Vet Pathol 20:127-142, 1983.

Hagman R. 
New Aspects of Canine Pyometra: Studies on Epidemiology 
and Pathogenesis. 
Doctoral thesis, Swedish Univ of Agricultural Sciences 
Uppsala 2004. 
http://diss-epsilon.slu.se/archive/00000736/01/Avhandlingsramen_för_närpublikation_R.Hagman.pdf

Hardie EM, Barsanti JA, Rawlings CA. 
Complications of prostatic surgery. 
J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 20:50, 1984

Hart BL. 
Effect of gonadectomy on subsequent development 
of age-related cognitive impairment in dogs. 
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jul 1;219(1):51-6.

Howe LM, Slater MR, Boothe HW, Hobson HP, Holcom JL, Spann AC. Long-term outcome of gonadectomy performed at an early age 
or traditional age in dogs. 
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jan 15;218(2):217-21.

http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/Biennial_National_Parent_Club_Canine_Health_Conference.pdf

http://www.grca.org/healthsurvey.pdf

Johnston SD, Kustritz MVR, Olson PNS. 
Canine and Feline Theriogenology. 
WB Saunders Company, Philadelphia, PA, 2001, p.207

Krawiec DR, Heflin D. 
Study of prostatic disease in dogs 177 cases (1981-1986). 
J Am Vet Med Assoc 200:1119-1122, 1992

MacEwan EG, Withrow SJ. 
Small Animal Clinical Oncology. 2nd edition. 
WB Saunders Company, Philadelphia, PA, 1996, p.356.

Meuten DJ. 
Tumors in Domestic Animals. 4th Edn.
Iowa State Press, Blackwell Publishing Company, 
Ames, Iowa, p. 575

Mullen HS, Matthiesen DT, Scavelli TD. 
Results of surgery and postoperative complications 
in 92 dogs treated for prostatic abscessation by a multiple
Penrose drain technique. 
J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 26:369, 1990

Obradovich J, Walshaw R, Goullaud E. 
The influence of castration on the development of 
prostatic carcinoma in the dog. 43 cases (1978-1985). 
J Vet Intern Med 1987 Oct-Dec;1(4):183-7

Panciera DL. 
Hypothyroidism in dogs: 66 cases (1987-1992). 
J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc., 204:761-7 1994

Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT. 
Host related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. 
Vet J. 1998 Jul;156(1):31-9.

Salmeri KR, Bloomberg MS, Scruggs SL, Shille V. 
Gonadectomy in immature dogs: effects on skeletal, 
physical, and behavioral development. 
JAVMA 1991;198:1193-1203

Schneider R, Dorn CR, Taylor DON. 
Factors influencing canine mammary cancer development 
and postsurgical survival. 
J Natl Cancer Inst 43:1249-1261, 1969

Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM. 
Canine ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy increases the 
prevalence of ACL injury. 
Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2004 Dec;(429):301-5.

Spain CV, Scarlett JM, Houpt KA. 
Long-term risks and benefits of early-age gonadectomy 
in dogs. JAVMA 2004;224:380-387.

Stocklin-Gautschi NM, Hassig M, Reichler IM, 
Hubler M, Arnold S. 
The relationship of urinary incontinence to early spaying 
in bitches. J. Reprod. Fertil. Suppl. 57:233-6, 2001

Ware WA, Hopper DL. 
Cardiac tumors in dogs: 1982-1995. 
J Vet Intern Med 1999 Mar-Apr;13(2):95-103

White RAS, Herrtage ME, Dennis R. 
The diagnosis and management of paraprostatic 
and prostatic retention cysts in the dog. 
J Small Anim Pract 28:551, 1987

White RA, Williams JM. 
Intracapsular prostatic omentalization: a new technique for 
management of prostatic abscesses in dogs. 
Vet Surg 24:390, 1995


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Totally agree. Except in cases of medical necessity, this process of neutering at such an early seems to be in order to benefit either the rescue agencies, or owners and/or breeders, rather than looking at what is actually best for the dog. From the links Terry keeps posting, it is rife in the USA and I do not like the fact that agencies like the RSPCA - the very agency that should be caring about animals - are following suit.


its not whats best for the dog - but in the US it is also legal and acceptable to 'de bark' your dog (have the vocal cords removed), have their teeth filed down or removed and its also the place where CM became popular - far too much 'what suits the people attitude' for my liking.

i know quite a few rspca rescues that come to work that were neutered at 6 months or below - all far leggier than they should be and most of them have problems with their legs, hips or elbows. funny that!

Also, i met a female staffie today on my college course with his owner, a vetinary nurse. He was neutered at 12 weeks, as he caught on of his jewels and ripped it bless him. He was obviously very deformed because of it, you could see how he hadnt grown properly in certain areas and she has loads of medical problems with him now. She says its because of the neutering, i thought it was because of the way he has been stunted, and so do the vets in the practice where she works. He was a lovely lad, just looked very odd bless him.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JjPhoenix said:


> Also, *i met a female staffie today* on my college course *with his owner*... *He was neutered at 12 weeks, as he caught on of his jewels* and ripped it bless him. He was obviously very deformed because of it, you could see how he hadnt grown properly in certain areas and she has loads of medical problems with him now. She says its because of the neutering, i thought it was because of the way he has been stunted, and so do the vets in the practice where she works.


hey, jj! :--) 
which sex is this dog? :huh: it changed.

neutering is not to blame for EVERYthing - if the dog has "loads of medical problems", its handy to have one blame-all target, 
but neutering cannot cause 85% or more of k9 health issues.

cataracts? kidney malformations? heart defects? sebaceous adenitis? Cushings? there are thousands of dog-health issues; 
*testicles removed* does not equal *add all possible health problems.* 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, jj! :--)
> which sex is this dog? :huh: it changed.
> 
> neutering is not to blame for EVERYthing - if the dog has "loads of medical problems", its handy to have one blame-all target,
> ...


male  also thats meant to say 21 weeks not 12!  when i say loads of medical problems, i mean due to his growth rate, muscle problems, bone problems, etc. i will try and get a photo, beautiful boy, but very odd looking.

As I said earlier there is *currently not enough scientific evidence to show either way the affects of neutering early whether they be positive or negative* as there are studies currently showing both results. (which i know sounds weird, but if you want your study to show a particular result they can be manipulated).

However, it is undeniable for anyone that has worked with, met, or even owned dogs that there IS an effect, being they grown taller and leggier - what are you trying to argue terry, that there are no effects at all, or that they are not negative? 

The more dogs you meet that have been neutered at different ages the results are physically there in front of you for all to see, here we often get dogs from the same litters brought in and often the differences are amazing.

eg zak, a staff cross who comes to creche, he was done when he came into rescue, about 4 months old, he is now 13 months and is on medication for the rest of his life for his dodgey joints on his super long legs. Along comes brother of zak, also handed into rescue (zaks mummy saw him and her daughter got him, couldnt resist lol) he was done also when he came into rescue, he was shorter, better built and ta daaa no joint problems!

Not very scientifc, I know, but its seen all the time - your a dog trainer, you will have seen it too (and we all know if you say no your telling porkies!)

My boy was done during his secondary fear period, at 13 months old and it did affect him, not all fear periods last the same amount of time or occur at the same time but that is the general rule. Next time, I will be watching my dog with regards to that and choosing the best time mentally for him, but i will never ever ever get a dog done 6 months or below, and strongly advise others not too.


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

ok, I have been reading this thread and its starting to freak me out (worrier me.....nah )

Now buster is a Dal so I have been told he has to wait till at least 15mnths anyway, but now I am seeing this fear thing and its freaking me out a little, when does this start and what happens with the dog during it? What will happen if I nueter at that time with regards to behaviours?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dalpup said:


> ...Buster is a Dal so I have been told he has to wait till at least 15mnths anyway...
> I am seeing this fear thing and its freaking me out a little, when does this start and what happens with the dog during it?
> What will happen if I nueter at that time with regards to behaviours?


hey, pup! :--) 
the typical onset of secondary-fear period is right before or at puberty -_by which i mean from 4.5-MO + 7-MO, to clarify... _
when the puppy finds her / his alarm-bark. _IOW the pup who ran to greet visitors at the door, now stands back + barks at them._ 

it usually lasts a few weeks, but its *milder* than the primary fear-period, 
typically 10-WO when pups are not thrilled by novel objects or strangers.

the primary fear-period can result in one-time learning: major fright = new trigger. 
secondary fears are much less likely to cause any permanent //needs B-mod fear as an after-effect. 
its usually 2 to 3 weeks, with no definite clear-cut STOP - it simply fades.

if U get the dog neutered before, during or after, it is IMO + IME unlikely to make a whits difference - 
what YOU dog in handling the dog re scary stuff is much more important. 

not forcing or flooding, giving them time to observe from a distance, and so on... just ordinary calm, teachable moments. 
try not to fret, hun - i know hes yer baby.  
--- terry


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

You know I bet I wouldnt have been as bad as this pre real kids :lol: husband caught me tucking the dog in last night under his cover (the puppy LOVES his cover :lol::lol you should have seen his face, he just said you know he isnt a real baby right? :lol: 

thanks for the re-assurance


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JjPhoenix said:


> (bold in original)
> 
> ...there is *currently not enough scientific evidence to show either way the affects of neutering early whether they be positive or negative* as there are studies currently showing both results.
> However, it is undeniable for anyone that has worked with, met, or even owned dogs that there IS an effect, being they grown taller and leggier - what are you trying to argue terry, that there are no effects at all, or that they are not negative?


hey, jj! :--) 
i have met plenty of dogs of all ages when i met them, who were desexed (M or F) at every imaginable age or stage - 
and as i have repeatedly said, since most of my clients are pet-dogs not to be bred, in the past 20-plus years, 
probably 75% have been desexed - every now and then, i have a breeder or show-ring handler as a client, and the dog(s) intact, 
but most MAY be intact if i meet them as pups, but are desexed by 9-MO if not before - *and quite a few have been shelter or rescue pups, desexed between 7-WO and 16-WO.*



JjPhoenix said:


> The more dogs you meet that have been neutered at different ages the results are physically there in front of you...


not one of the juvie-desex dogs that i have seen or handled, has been extremely tall, pathetically slab-sided and 
lacking muscle, or otherwise apparently odd-looking or dysfunctional - they run, jump, play, and work like all the others do. 
quite a few are in agility - 
Family Dog Club, Agility Boarding & More - home 
this place is enormously popular, she has crowds of folks with mixed-breed, cross-breed + purebred dogs in tow.

i have also met plenty of dogs who were rescues, desexed as adults. 
i cannot definitively point to ONE dog desexed as a juvenile, and say, _*that dog was damaged by being neutered at that young age - * not one. _

OTOH, i can point to any number of dogs who were desexed as adults, *who have now, or had previously, really serious behavioral issues due at least in part, to being INTACT - 
also often un-trained, poorly managed, and allowed to rehearse the behavior, but being *intact* is the 
single common factor, and being MALE is often the other common factor.*

if U dare say, _boys will be boys... _ and chuckle disarmingly, i will dispatch demons to haunt Ur nightmares. :mad5: 
i really, truly despise that shoulder-shrugging smile, all is forgiven, B*S. 
*male dogs go thru an extended and increasingly-intense puberty into teen into young-adult, and by 9-MO, 
most pet-owners are being driven nutz by humping, sparring, stare-downs, runaways, RG and more. * 
if they are not intending to breed - they have 2 choices: 
* get ready for a sleigh-ride behind an unbroken horse... which they cannot stop, only deal with the day 
* snip the M-pup before 9-MO and avoid the whole process.

i am sure that U know which one i would suggest, ESPECIALLY to a novice owner who cannot put a fetch on a Lab... 
 there is no need for them to go thru a baptism of fire, IMO.

i also suggest getting Fs desexed by 6-MO to 7-MO at the very latest, to avoid the first estrus... 
* and all the scheduling hassles for the upcoming desex, 
* the extra risk of Pyo + breast-cancer, 
* the possibility of a false-pregnancy, 
*  + the worry over keeping the F away from Ms, and the Ms away from her, for approximately a month or more.

my 9-MO Akita had an open-pyometra that would have gone undiagnosed, if i had not insisted she was not acting right.  
i never saw any sign of it - the vet showed me the smear; my dog had been thru her first-estrus, and was still (so i thought) 
being fussy about grooming, *when in fact, she was ingesting the infectious matter.* thank heaven, it was early, 
and she was fine after 2-weeks of antibiotics... but i could have lost my dog. 
unless U intend to breed, IMO + IME it is not worth the risk.

hopefully this clarifies, 
--- terry


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Wow guys! What an interesting thread.

Personally, I have no time for studies. They're mainly done (in my humble opinion) to prove a point of view, or disprove one.

I mean, in all seriousness, pre-2004, studies showed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that could reach us in 45 minutes...and where did that get us exactly? 

I tend to trust my own eyes before other's lies.

I won't be castrating my dog at all if I can help it. I believe that evolution did a fine job in creating him, and that every part of him is there for a reason.

I've seen dogs' personalities transform overnight after being neutered. Yes, it's anecdotal to the person reading this, but it's very real to me. I don't want my dog ending up like that and I certainly won't be taking the risk of it happening.

I can also go further and compare 3 cats (an uncle and 2 nephews) whom I owned and were neutered/intact. Uncle was neutered at 6 months. Nephew 1 only had one testicle. Nephew 2 had both.

Uncle became very skittish after neutering, and all of his life carried around excess flabby bags. His territory was small, he was always being picked on and the poor thing remained a kitten in a cat's body.

Nephew 1 was somewhat braver. Much smaller in size but could handle himself. Tended to look after his uncle.

Nephew 2 was a bruiser of a cat. Not much larger than his litter mate in height but much more muscular and filled out. He went out there and scrapped his way to the top of a territory that extended a good half mile around our house. His coat felt different, as did his skin (the vet commented that this was common in intact males). He was the most loving cat out of the three, very confident and very rarely sick. 

The only other example I can think of was a eunuch I met in the Phillipines. Very sad. He was about 6'5" tall, quite flabby and sang with the voice of an angel. He was the freakshow entertainment at a local bar. 

For these reasons, I believe my dog does need the testosterone that Mother Nature planned to give him and I'll be letting him get it too.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Hi Terry -sorry for the delay in replying to your two extensive posts about Howe's article, but I was working a 13 hr shift yesterday and had better things to do than wade through all that! However, today I'm fit and raring to go - and I must admit that I'm laughing my socks off at your unusual method of debate. It's very novel to cite an article by Zink in several posts to *support your point of view, *and then to publish two immense posts to *say that he is wrong!* :lol: :lol: Hmm. So the article by Zink, which *YOU* cited to support *YOUR* points, is flawed according to Howe. Perhaps you ought to choose your support material more carefully! :lol: :lol:

I'm always suspicious when one professional writes an article attacking another professional, so I've read Howe's points sceptically. Whether her attack on Zink is justified or not, she nevertheless concedes the following points which all suppport my argument:

1.	Bitches spayed at 7 weeks grew significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months
2.	Salmeri was studying growth and maturation of the radius and ulna. (My comment -So according to this vet the radius and ulna grow longer than the hind legs - no wonder elbow dysplasia is seen in dogs neutered too early)
3.	The study of 1842 dogs found that early age gonadectomy was associated with a significant increased incidence of hip dysplasia (Spain, 2004). Puppies that underwent gonadectomy before 5.5 months of age had a 6.7% incidence of hip dysplasia, while those that underwent gonadectomy at the more traditional age had an incidence of 4.7%. 
4.	Related to the incidence of cardiac tumors ………………. That study did show that the relative risk for hemangiosarcoma in spayed females was >5 times that for intact females, but "that castrated males had only a slightly greater risk (1.6 times) of developing a heart tumor than did intact males." ………. Osteosarcoma has been demonstrated in some studies to occur more frequently in gonadectomized dogs, …………………. castration does not protect against the development of prostatic carcinoma 
5.	Re cognitive disorders: the study did show in dogs that were already affected, was that the "percentage of dogs that progressed from being mildly impaired (ie, impairments in 1 behavioral category) at the time of the first interview to being severely impaired (ie, impairments in > 2 categories) at the time of the second interview was significantly higher for neutered than sexually intact male dogs." 
6.	Zink is correct that both the cited references do demonstrate that hypothyroidism occurs more commonly in gonadectomized dogs (including the Golden Retriever breed) than in intact dogs. While there is an association, the overall incidence of hypothyroidism is 0.2% in canines (Panciera, 1994) - although it may be higher in certain breeds such as the Golden Retriever and Doberman Pinscher.

Seems enough evidence not to spay/neuter except for medial reasons to me! :thumbup:

Erm - are you now going to find an article to prove that Howe is wrong? :lol: :lol:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Wow guys! What an interesting thread.
> 
> Personally, I have no time for studies. They're mainly done (in my humble opinion) to prove a point of view, or disprove one.
> 
> ...


I think this post is worth much more than 2 cents - in fact, I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head. The anecdotes of today are the basis of the studies of tomorrow - to ignore them and pretend that they are not happening because this study or that study says they can't happen is idiotic and unscientific (especially when most of these studies have been done with an ulterior motive to "prove" an already decided point)

Depsite all the posts on this thread from people who have actual experience of the effects of neutering (and especially early neutering), there are still one or two (and one in particular!) who insist that it cannot happen - surely it would be more honest of these people to admit that anecdotal evidence would seem to indicate that the studies are flawed, and that more - and independent!! - studies need to be done? And, which is more important, to stop advocating something that could cause harm to animals on an open forum like this until such evidence has been produced?

I totally agree with you about leaving animals as nature intended. I find it sad that the same people who are (quite rightly)aghast at some of the things man has done to dogs over the years, can quite happily advocate chopping bits off here and there and put the dog at risk of pain and illness just for the convenience of humans - because that's why it's advocated. Not for the animals' sake - but so humans won't have to deal with unwanted pups, messy seasons, a male dog who wants to hump a female etc etc.


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

I believe theres something it it tbh. Keep looking at Missy and thinking she shouldnt have suck long legs!! I know she was nuetered before she was a year old! I am glad we havent done Chazz yet, even though atm with the next doors dog is in heat and they are trying to get to each other over the fence!!!!  Chazz is a little shorty and I like him like it!!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

dalpup said:


> ok, I have been reading this thread and its starting to freak me out (worrier me.....nah )
> 
> Now buster is a Dal so I have been told he has to wait till at least 15mnths anyway, but now I am seeing this fear thing and its freaking me out a little, when does this start and what happens with the dog during it? What will happen if I nueter at that time with regards to behaviours?





leashedForLife said:


> if U get the dog neutered before, during or after, it is IMO + IME unlikely to make a whits difference -
> what YOU dog in handling the dog re scary stuff is much more important.
> --- terry


Hiya Dalpup - I disagree with Terry's opinion. How you handle and train a dog is certainly very important, but the dog's nature and personality is even more important. It's common sense really - it's easier to train a happy, well-adjusted dog than a timid, fearful one. And neutering before a dog is mentally mature - and that means before he is sexually and physically mature, which could be up to 24 months in large breeds - can result in a timid and fearful dog.

When a dog is neutered, he will no longer produce the sex hormones. We all know about testosterone, but male dogs also produce oestrogen, which has a soothing and calming effect - ie helps dogs not to be so fearful. Taking this away by castration before sexual, physical and mental maturity can result in fearful and timid dogs - and fear and timidity can lead to all sorts of problems such as fear-aggression.

Yes, these problems can all be dealt with by training - but why take the risk of putting your dog (and yourselves!) through any of that just for the sake of castrating a few months early?

Take a look at this link for more information:

Stan Rawlinson Neutering (Spaying & Castration) Dogs and Suprelorin


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> if U dare say, _boys will be boys... _ and chuckle disarmingly, i will dispatch demons to haunt Ur nightmares. :mad5:
> i really, truly despise that shoulder-shrugging smile, all is forgiven, B*S.
> *male dogs go thru an extended and increasingly-intense puberty into teen into young-adult, and by 9-MO,
> most pet-owners are being driven nutz by humping, sparring, stare-downs, runaways, RG and more. *
> ...


You seem to live in a different world to me. I have had dogs - mixes of various sexes - for 37 years now - longer if you count my parents' dogs when I lived at home. At present I have five dogs - two intact males and three intact females - and we very often have another intact male (the son of one of our females) staying with us. These dogs live in the house with us. I have NEVER experienced anything like you describe above :scared: I think you are deliberately painting am exaggerated horror story.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Its very novel to cite an article by Zink in several posts to *support your point of view, *and then to publish two immense posts to *say that he is wrong!* :lol: :lol: Hmm. So the article by Zink, which *YOU* cited to support *YOUR* points, is flawed according to Howe. Perhaps you ought to choose your support material more carefully! :lol: :lol:


last time, weaver - 
i did not cite Zink to support my opinion, or to support my personal experiences with my dogs, clients dogs, colleagues dogs, or indeed any dogs or humans whatever - 

i cited Zink because a lot of ppl have proliferated that paper, and as a result that paper is frequently cited 
to claim that pubertal or juvenile desex causes enormous problems. 
so it was cited In Order To Explain what is glaringly obvious, even to an ordinarily perceptive non-scientist who is NOT conducting research - 
* mixing juvie-desex up with pubertal 
* stating opinion as science-fact, i.e., supported by data, etc.

i am not engaging on any of the other points - :thumbup: wave a cape at another bull, dear.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I have to say, my stud dog is no problem to anyone, he's a very sociable boy and a pleasure to take anywhere.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hey, y;all! :--) 
lets discuss human behavior, as opposed to research or opinions on dog-desex - 
_humans like to have something simple, to which they can point and say, *there - thats why.*_

the lady who adopted a street-dog from a (poorly-run) rescue in her home-country was a case in point - 
the dog was globally fearful when she saw him at the vets clinic where he was being boarded. 
he was also in pain, with a broken foot - which would have slowed him down, and reduced his activity somewhat, along with 
his poor health. BUT - being he was an adult or young-adult, *none of this stuff about juvie or pubertal desex applied 
to his neuter, which was post-pubertal + way, way-past juvenile. *

yet suddenly, *his fears* - which had never been addressed; no trainer, no classes, no calmatives, no psych-meds, no eval 
by a vet-behaviorist, NOthing - *are all due to evil neutering.* he was afraid before she got him of ALL humans; like many 
fearful dogs, whether genetic or learned fears, he continued to be More-Fearful of men than women - which since 
she was his primary caretaker, also had habituation to help.

she had never neutered a dog before in her life - 
but her fearful dog (despite being terrified the first time she saw him) was *made* fearful by his neutering. 
its simple; its appealing; we have something to BLAME, and its not our fault in any way. :thumbup: hurrah!

personal experience: 
my neighbors bought a Lab pup; they wanted a _*big dog,*_ so they shopped around for a huge sire + big dam, and chose (of course) a male - remember, everything for them was about SIZE. they then free-fed the puppy, complaining meanwhile that they could not housetrain him.  i tried suggesting crate-training or a baby-gate, but they preferred to put a chair in the doorway (which he chewed to bits over weeks), + punishing him whenever they caught him in the act.

they had NOT gotten him from screened parents - 
and when he began to pace instead of WALK and weighed 80# at less than 6-MO (yes, he was fat), i was worried. sure-enuf, at 12-MO the vet told them he needed hip-surgery, or he would not be walking by 3-YO; they could have gotten a less-expensive surgery if they had screened HIM themselves via a Penn-HIP vet, but they had passed that age (9 to 10-MO). 
they opted for the cheaper of 2 surgeries, and now have a dog with 4 legs - 3 functional and one prop - and elbow arthritis from the wear and tear on his overweight shoulders.

*none of this, according to them, is their fault.  it has nothing to do with over-feeding a young pup, using PUPPY-food 
(for a future-giant? his sire was 120# + resembled a Dane-sized Lab; his dam was 90#), keeping him on linoleum 
for 40 to 60 hours a week (poor traction), jogging him on pavement (repetitive stress impact) from 4-MO, 
or buying from un-screened parents. *

its all his breed - :huh: hip dysplasia is part of owning a Lab.

one simple answer is not always correct, or even often correct; there are loads of things that are both nature (genes) and nurture - environs, their life experience, diet, rearing factors, exercise, and on and on.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

One of my dogs has been done and the other is due to go in shh :lol: but they are both the same size so :confused1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

testosterone is only *- simple -* when compared to the several F-hormones that dance around one-another in complex ways; 
that does not mean its a flat-line of _*adult level for androgenic normal = _______ *_

even in the same-M, it climbs at certain times, and falls at others - and most-Ms have their own slightly or strongly 
individual daily rhythms of higher, lower + medial range.

here is just one recent research article on replacing (theoretically or proven) fallen testosterone - 
Use of testosterone for 'male menopause' questionable says DTB



> EXCERPT -
> 
> _ Testosterone treatment also has several unwanted side effects, says DTB. These include a rise in prostate specific antigen (PSA), blockage of the urinary tract, development of prostate cancer and the development of breasts (gynaecomastia).
> And it can aggravate ischaemic heart disease, epilepsy, and sleep apnoea.
> ...


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> testosterone is only *- simple -* when compared to the several F-hormones that dance around one-another in complex ways;
> that does not mean its a flat-line of _*adult level for androgenic normal = _______ *_
> 
> even in the same-M, it climbs at certain times, and falls at others - and most-Ms have their own slightly or strongly
> ...


And the relevance of this in relation to the fact that stopping sexual hormone production by castration/spaying before sexual maturity means the growth plates close a lot later than they should do, causing extra bone growth, cruciate ligament problems, hip and elbow dysplasia etc etc is .....................   

________________


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hey, weaver! :--)

my point was that even adding testosterone that is theoretically *missing* results in so many problems, it is not 
regarded as safe or effective as treatment for older men. in part this is due to the variation in levels, as WHEN it is measured 
is part of getting the _Yes, it is low_* vs *_No, it is perfectly normal_ answer. 


Spellweaver said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> And the relevance of this in relation to the fact that stopping sexual hormone production by castration / spaying *before sexual maturity means* ...............


sexual maturity, weaver?

in Ms, sexual maturity means viable sperm produced, in numbers that would permit or Do Permit offspring to be sired; 
one poster on PF-uk just referred to a Cav-M who tied his grandmother at 5.5-Mos, and a pregnancy resulted. 
(i asked if the F got a mismate jab, but never got an answer.) 
most Ms are sexually-mature *capable of siring* at 6 to 7-mos age. obviously, Kasanova was a bit precocious.

in Fs, sexual maturity means they can become pregnant + carry a litter. the average first-estrus is 6 to 7-mos age.

in that case, we actually agree! :thumbup: 
of course, i would prefer that a F not intended for breeding be desexed just before that 1st-heat, rather than after - 
for the added health-benefits of virtually zero mammary-cancer, and a few other tidbits.

but i am perfectly amenable to pubertal desex in both Ms and Fs. :001_cool: 
6 to 7-mos is very reasonable, and has been the standard of practice in both the US + UK since about 1960 - 
millions upon millions of dogs and cats, very few of whom had symptomatic problems.

if they did - where is the tidal-wave of cases of orthopedic problems? 
that should have neatly coincided with my growing-up years and adulthood - and i did not see or hear about them, 
no vet-papers were published on the destruction of our pets by bone + joint issues.

*as a matter of fact, dogs and cat longevity increased significantly over that precise period - 1960 thru 1990.* 
probably just another coincidence - along with *greatly reduced shelter-euthanasias - from 15 to 17M per year, 
to 3 to 5M per year in the USA.* interesting coincidences, eh? 

how much did shelter-euthanasias drop in the UK, during that 30-year period - 1960 thru 1990? 
how many shelter and rescue dogs, cats, pups + kittens were desexed over that time, in the UK? 
was there a sudden spike in orthopedic problems, across the UK?

all my best, 
--- terry


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, weaver! :--)
> 
> sexual maturity, weaver?
> 
> ...


Terry - you are confusing puberty with sexual maturity. What you describe above is puberty, not sexual maturity. As you've already introduced humans to illustrate your points, I'll continue with that analogy. A human boy will reach puberty anywhere between 11 to 14, and will be capable of impregnating a female. He will, however, in no way be sexually mature - think of how his hormones will cause his body to alter greatly between the ages of 13 and 21. You surely wouldn't try to say a 13 year old boy was sexually mature, would you? In just the same way, a 5/6/7 month old puppy may have reached puberty and be capable of siring a litter, but he has not yet reached sexual maturity. That occurs much later - sometimes as late as 24 months in the larger breeds.

And just as a human boy's hormones cause his body to alter greatly between puberty and sexual maturity, so too does a puppy's hormones. If you neuter before a puppy reaches sexual maturity (not puberty, but sexual maturity) you stop production of those hormones and their effect on the body - which causes growth plates not closing on time, extended growth leading to cruciate ligament problems, hip and elbow dysplasia, bone cancers etc etc.

So no, in no way do we agree!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

defined by biology, sexual maturity means _a male or female who can reproduce. _



> Definitions of sexual maturity on the Web:
> 
> * Sexual maturity is the age or stage when an organism can reproduce. It is sometimes considered synonymous with adulthood, though the two are ...
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_maturity
> ...


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

They may be sexually mature, but they're not physically mature at that age.... You're argung over symantics.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> defined by biology, sexual maturity means _a male or female who can reproduce. _


Think you need to read this article - you obviously do not realise there is a huge gap between the onset of puberty and the completion of sexual maturity.

I'll just quote a bit of it here:

_To assess growth and development during puberty it is critical to evaluate sexual maturity ratings as these correlate to normal growth and also physiologic changes. Sexual maturity ratings include breast development in females, genital development in males and pubic hair development in both males and females. _

Adolescent Health Curriculum - Puberty - Normal Growth and Development (A1)


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

kazschow said:


> They may be sexually mature, but they're not physically mature at that age.... You're argung over symantics.


No - it's more than semantics. The reason they are not physically mature at 5/6/7 months is that their sexual maturity is not complete - it is the sexual hormones that provide the building blocks for the physical maturity. Puberty begins at 5/6/7 months, but is not complete (ie sexual maturity is not reached) until many months later. And those months (and the hormones produced during those months) are vital for normal physical development. (Just as in humans, puberty begins in the early teens but is not complete until late teens)


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

We've tried to stay clear of this thread because despite some people being wrong they will be right!

Oscar, a male Sar, had chronic hip dysplasia and received the necessary surgery to correct the condition. We also have a female Sar'. We would have dearly loved to have continued Oscar's blood line with Zara but quite obviously the characteristics and Temperament of Oscar will now die with him and that's a tragedy.

Oscar is now 16 months and will remain intact, because to have him castrated would be wholly detrimental to his health! We cannot risk any "further" growth other than that which nature had intented. We do not want to neuter Zara either, as she has not reached her sexual maturity (18 months) and we have not discovered any sound medical reasons to do so. 

We believe that any operation should be done for medical reasons only, and not for human convenience. 

We realise that not having Zara and Oscar speyed/neutered is an inconvenience to us, but it is only a temporary one, (separating them when she is in season). Neutering is permanent as are some of the attached problems.


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, jj! :--)
> i have met plenty of dogs of all ages when i met them, who were desexed (M or F) at every imaginable age or stage -
> and as i have repeatedly said, since most of my clients are pet-dogs not to be bred, in the past 20-plus years,
> probably 75% have been desexed - every now and then, i have a breeder or show-ring handler as a client, and the dog(s) intact,
> ...


I am finding it extremely difficult to believe that you genuinely believe there is no side effects to having a dog done under 6 months old  apparently the dogs that you have seen are different to aaaalllll the other dogs in the world (although i doubt it, more like selective blindness) there has also been a study showing that the chances of breast cancer can be increased by doing them before first seaon, but i noticed you havent brought that one up! 
I truly do not understand how you can argue this, and have experience with dogs, truly i cannot. Either you do not want to see this as it goes against what you want to believe (which is what i think) or your lying.

I thought the whole point of being a trainer is to never think that you know it all, no one does, if ian dunbar and john rogerson can admit and go by this, surely you shouldn be any different, but its like coming up against a brick wall, having one study recited at us again and again despite that it was obviously done to 'prove a point'

funny how you hold so much store by this one _study_, yet no vets or vet societies acknowledge its existance .....

however also to those who say they will not ever get their dogs done, i disagree with that also.

*its about choosing the right time. for a female, 3 months after their first season is the generally approved time (if you ask every trainer except terry, apparently) 
males, more complex and dependent on the situation and their behaviour, but in my eyes NEVER BEFORE 7 MONTHS and not during the secondary fear period, leaving a window from 8-12 months and 17 months onwards (roughly) 
*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JjPhoenix said:


> ...there has also been a study showing that the chances of breast cancer can be increased by doing them before first seaon, but i noticed you havent brought that one up!


please give a link, jj?

i have never in my life heard of such a study - not once. 
thanks, 
--- terry


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> No - it's more than semantics. The reason they are not physically mature at 5/6/7 months is that their sexual maturity is not complete - it is the sexual hormones that provide the building blocks for the physical maturity. Puberty begins at 5/6/7 months, but is not complete (ie sexual maturity is not reached) until many months later. And those months (and the hormones produced during those months) are vital for normal physical development. (Just as in humans, puberty begins in the early teens but is not complete until late teens)


Absolutley, I wasn't directing my comment to you Spellweaver.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Personally, I have no time for studies. They're mainly done (in my humble opinion) to prove a point of view, or disprove one.
> 
> I mean, in all seriousness, pre-2004, studies showed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that could reach us in 45 minutes...and where did that get us exactly? .


A politically motivated, secretly compiled dossier is not a good analogy for a peer-reviewed scientific study. When you get sick I bet you opt for treatment shown to be effective is medical trials rather than just hope for the best.



Spellweaver said:


> 3.	The study of 1842 dogs found that early age gonadectomy was associated with a significant increased incidence of hip dysplasia (Spain, 2004). Puppies that underwent gonadectomy before 5.5 months of age had a 6.7% incidence of hip dysplasia, while those that underwent gonadectomy at the more traditional age had an incidence of 4.7%.


Some honest quotation wouldn't go amiss. Spain also found evidence to suggest early s/n may reduce severity of HD (among several other benefits). If you are going to cite Spain's findings then be decent enough to give them fair treatment and not selectively edit to suit your purpose.



> *Jjpheonix wrote:* there has also been a study showing that the chances of breast cancer can be increased by doing them before first seaon


I think you are mistaken.

Imo Zink's paper stinks to high heaven, although Howe's rebuttal is far from perfect. If Rawlinson said it was raining I'd go to the window and have a look. Sandbourn's paper gives fairer treatment but still has a distinct anti-neuter bias and has never been published in a peer-reviewed journal.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Some honest quotation wouldn't go amiss. Spain also found evidence to suggest early s/n may reduce severity of HD (among several other benefits). If you are going to cite Spain's findings then be decent enough to give them fair treatment and not selectively edit to suit your purpose.


Some good manners wouldn't go amiss. If you are going to comment on my post, then be decent enough to read it properly first and not launch an attack on what you mistakenly think you read. If you HAD read my post properly, you would see that I was not, in fact, quoting Spain and citing his findings. I was quoting LeashedforLife, who was quoting Howe, who was quoting Spain. No selective editing - I could quote only what was written in LeashedforLife's post. And if you HAD read my post properly, you would also have seen that I was not evaluating Howe's rebuttal of Zink, but was merely picking out points quoted by LeashedforLife from that rebuttal where Howe conceded Zink was right.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

OP my mum had her JRT neutered at six months (the rott/GSD was neutered when we rescued her privately. Think she was either 1 or 2 then) and I honestly didn't notice a difference but then she is a small dog.

I prefer my girls to mature (2 or 3 seasons as I have a large and giant breed) before I neuter them. It can be an inconvenience keeping them in and occupying them in other ways but it's worth it. Of course if there was a medical problem I would neuter asap.

It's up to the individual  but like I said I honestly don't know if dogs get bigger after neutering.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I was not, in fact, quoting Spain and citing his findings. I was quoting LeashedforLife, who was quoting Howe, who was quoting Spain.


Lol. Attributation is the correct form but whether you were quoting Leashed, Howe _or_ Spain you still omitted the qualification regarding severity and intentionally giving half the picture is misleading.



> No selective editing - I could quote only what was written in LeashedforLife's post.


Which you did selectively and that's what selective editing means.



> Howe conceded Zink was right.


Pointing out Zink's sin of ommision is not a concession of rightness.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JjPhoenix said:


> funny how you hold so much store by this one _study_, yet no vets or vet societies acknowledge its existance ...


this is where it came from: 


> This is the html version of the file http://www.sheltermedicine.com/documents/Zink rebuttal.doc


this is the website where that link originates: 
UC Davis Koret Shelter Medicine Welcome 
which not surprisingly, happens to be *about* Vet-Medicine in Animal Shelters, run by vets + for vets.

this from the home-page: 


> *bold added - *
> 
> Welcome
> *The UC-Davis Koret Shelter Medicine Program is a privately funded program* that operates solely on generous contributions by people like you. *To make a tax-deductible donation, please visit the School of Veterinary Medicine's online gift page* and scroll down to select CCAH: Koret Shelter Medicine Program. Thank you for your support!
> ...


UC-Davis is the Univ of California-Davis, the campus located in Davis, California - 
the ONLY Calif. university with a Vet-Medicine college; they enjoy a sterling reputation. 
here is a sample-search for *when to neuter, when to desex* via their list of FAQs: 
Frequently Asked Question (FAQ)

i never said, _i know it all... _ or even, _i have seen it all... _ 
i have said repeatedly that what differences i have seen have been so small as to be hardly noticeable in height, 
and are just as easily explained by SEXUAL * REPRODUCTION which allows, indeed encourages, = variation = 
among individuals. there have been M-dogs who were intact who were taller than their neutered-siblings 
or the average for their breed - So? does that prove that ALL intact-M-dogs get taller? 
no - only that of these dogs, some are taller and some are shorter.

my reiterated point is that if U show me a random group of dogs, and U *ASK me to tell U which dogs were juvie-desex 
and which were pubertal desex OR adult-desex* - (and i am not allowed to peek at genitalia, only overall conformation: 
they are all wearing onesies from waist to butt, prepuce and scrotum are hidden) 
i can compare height to length, frame, musculature... 
*i am not at all convinced my answers would be correct much more often than random chance. *

all my best, 
--- terry


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

LOL regardless of what your going on about.. i will put my 2pence in.. but... Its not about dogs... I think dogs just grow regardless as you can't say how big the dog is going to be anyway.. I mean unless you were to clone two dogs and see from there, possibly I am talking twaddle.....

But in horses.... If you geld at an early age it allows all their energy to go into growing and developing.. having kept all our ponies entire till they were 4-5 seem to give them more prescence and they didn't seem to fill out quite as much as there mates of same breeds that were gelded.. I also think this could be down to stress.. Now I am not sure if this were to be the same for dogs as they dont seem to get as stressed..

Love you all... hhaha


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> Lol. Attributation is the correct form but whether you were quoting Leashed, Howe _or_ Spain you still omitted the qualification regarding severity and intentionally giving half the picture is misleading.
> .


Which is why you pretended in your first post that I was quoting Spain, I presume? :lol: :lol:

:Yawn: :Yawn: :Yawn: :Yawn:

Same old, same old. Already explained why you are wrong about this and don't intend to do it again.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Status symbols of house sparrows: High testosterone darkens their bill

house sparrows AKA English-sparrows as a sexual display: pigment and bib (scale- darker + larger = more).


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## JjPhoenix (Jan 6, 2010)

http://www.homeopathicvet.co.uk/pdf files/dog neutering with links.pdf



> Assumption: The increase in size of early neutered dogs is not a problem
> 
> Canine View
> 
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Mum2Alfie said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...I am glad we havent done Chazz yet, even though atm with the next doors dog is in heat and they are trying
> to get to each other over the fence!!!!  *Chazz is a little shorty* and I like him like it!!


just saw this :lol: his short-stature *couldn't possibly* have anything to do with his being 
a *JRT x Dachshund*, could it? hee-hee-hee... even if he were neutered *in utero*, 
he would not be *tall* as an adult.  thanks for the chuckle :thumbup:

BTW - how old was Chazz in June?  if he was *12-MO,* his entire skeleton has hardened already, 
including his pelvis; if he was 5 to 6-MO, his long-bone growth would have stopped; he would have been 
as tall as he would get, by 6-MO.

cheers, 
- terry


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## vixtory (Mar 27, 2010)

My bordeaux bitch has put weight on since she was spayed x


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

vixtory said:


> My bordeaux bitch has put weight on since she was spayed x


easy answer for that problem :thumbup: feed her less - she doesn't fill the bowl, U do. 
and more exercise is mandatory to peel weight off dogs, IME - *only* decreasing calories 
will not successfully replace fat with lean, it takes both.

increasing her walk by 1/3 [15-mins becomes 20, etc] and making it *brisk!* not a stroll, 
but a point-to-point _*brisk gait*_ with short defined sniff-breaks, are both low-impact, 
gentle ways to increase exercise without stressing her joints under that pudge.

fitness is an ongoing thing - not a one-off, unfortunately. enjoy... 
- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> IMO Zink's paper stinks to high heaven, although Howe's rebuttal is far from perfect. If Rawlinson said it was raining I'd go to the window and have a look.


:lol: thanks, john  i needed that laugh... :thumbup:


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## Care4animals (10 mo ago)

I don't own a dog myself but I have experience with other people's dogs and read a lot about neutering and spaying. I always watched documentaries not just about wild life but all the pets I could never have. I have far more problems with unneutered dogs then the neutered ones (thinking about the males). The information I got seems to apply. Unneutered dogs display lots of unwanted behaviour like humping anything. It was sometimes my limps not just a simple thing like a blanket. I felt sorry for the dog when somebody was bringing in a poodle bitch and the dog had to be bind to the sofa and whined the entire time because he was not allowed to do what his instinct told him. The older dog has behaviour issues, too. They both do not listen to their owner, ignore the owner, like to escape and the oldest fat and blind dog is occasionally aggressive. He even bit his own owner. He often barks either at the other dog or just the air. It seems to be attention. The much younger dog jumps to people all the time and on furniture. He needs even more attention. They are both always on edge and occasionally marking a certain corner indoors. Their hormones dictate their lives. I never had such issues with neutered and spayed dogs. It prevents cancer of the productive organs, too. A friend who always had animals in her life and volunteers with the RSPCA even said her parent's dogs had cancer because she was not spayed at all whilst the other dogs were. The neutered or spayed ones were healthier and lived longer than the others. She is convinced it needs to be done especially Whilst many frum Orthodox Jewish owner do not neuter or spay and refuse to listen to experts even charity vets. I am Jewish myself and studied Judaism for many years. There is nothing written in the Torah about it. It is only says "feed your animals first" and gives one example about "a donkey being hit". It was a document of its time and talks about farm animals that were meant for breeding such as cows, sheep and goats. You cannot compare any farm animal with a dog or a cat. At that time the Hebrews were not keeping any animal as a pet and they had no cat or dog. If they knew about them they were regarded as unclean and not kosher like pigs and many other creatures. I don't believe that especially a charity will neuter or spay animals for all the wrong reasons. I'm not sure if the old dog is so fat because his hormones make him eat so much or is it a diet issue. Despite her trying to exercise him as far as he can walk it is very hard to get rid of all the fat. They are both small but the very young one (1 year old now) is full of energy and does not put on weight. He gets the same food plus the left-overs of dinner.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Care4animals said:


> I don't own a dog myself but I have experience with other people's dogs and read a lot about neutering and spaying. I always watched documentaries not just about wild life but all the pets I could never have. I have far more problems with unneutered dogs then the neutered ones (thinking about the males). The information I got seems to apply. Unneutered dogs display lots of unwanted behaviour like humping anything. It was sometimes my limps not just a simple thing like a blanket. I felt sorry for the dog when somebody was bringing in a poodle bitch and the dog had to be bind to the sofa and whined the entire time because he was not allowed to do what his instinct told him. The older dog has behaviour issues, too. They both do not listen to their owner, ignore the owner, like to escape and the oldest fat and blind dog is occasionally aggressive. He even bit his own owner. He often barks either at the other dog or just the air. It seems to be attention. The much younger dog jumps to people all the time and on furniture. He needs even more attention. They are both always on edge and occasionally marking a certain corner indoors. Their hormones dictate their lives. I never had such issues with neutered and spayed dogs. It prevents cancer of the productive organs, too. A friend who always had animals in her life and volunteers with the RSPCA even said her parent's dogs had cancer because she was not spayed at all whilst the other dogs were. The neutered or spayed ones were healthier and lived longer than the others. She is convinced it needs to be done especially Whilst many frum Orthodox Jewish owner do not neuter or spay and refuse to listen to experts even charity vets. I am Jewish myself and studied Judaism for many years. There is nothing written in the Torah about it. It is only says "feed your animals first" and gives one example about "a donkey being hit". It was a document of its time and talks about farm animals that were meant for breeding such as cows, sheep and goats. You cannot compare any farm animal with a dog or a cat. At that time the Hebrews were not keeping any animal as a pet and they had no cat or dog. If they knew about them they were regarded as unclean and not kosher like pigs and many other creatures. I don't believe that especially a charity will neuter or spay animals for all the wrong reasons. I'm not sure if the old dog is so fat because his hormones make him eat so much or is it a diet issue. Despite her trying to exercise him as far as he can walk it is very hard to get rid of all the fat. They are both small but the very young one (1 year old now) is full of energy and does not put on weight. He gets the same food plus the left-overs of dinner.


Not sure if you noticed but this is a 12 yr old zombie thread, with very few participants still on the forum
Can I suggest if you want to start yet another debate on N/S, there has been many over the years 
You do your own
And .
Use up-to-date, non political or rabbinical, research


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