# Dominance problems



## fleurtess (Feb 3, 2010)

If you have a dog that has a dominance problem, won't walk to heel (pulls on the lead) or is generally disobedient and a pain in the rear end. There is a very simple solution to it all.

Take one Newspaper, roll it up and put celloptape around both ends and one in the middle. This banged on furniture, your hand or even the dogs rump does wonders. The dog will then see the "stick" and will sit back and think Whoa!! You can also use this when walking a dog that will insist on pulling, all you do is keep it in front of the dog while walking, soon you will not need it.

I know this works, I have two bloody minded Catalans with dominance problems. The older one Rosa, is totally under control with the very rare instance of when a Poodle grumbles at her she will try to teach that Poodle some manners, she gets the wrong end of the "stick" and is thrown outside for a few hours. (They really hate being separated from the pack). Then there is Tula, a year old Catalan who is learning fast that she is bottom of the pile and does not attack Poodles at any time. She learnt that after she attacked Dudie some months ago now. OK, Dudie was also being naughty but a big dog should not attack a little dog. Tula has learnt this very fast.

I firmly believe in the rolled up Newspaper and have a few around the house so that one is never far from my hand. I also use voice commands that they understand. Voice commands should always be the same and never confusing to the dog. NO means just that. Down means lay down on the floor. OFF means get off what ever the dog is on or up against. lastly there is the voice command to stop dogs in their tracks.........a very lound and harsh sounding OI soon stops anything that was going to happen.

Although Catalans can be very difficult dogs, all I have to do to mine is point at them and they sit and wait for the next command. BACK OFF and they walk backwards and wait for me to go through a door way first or back off when I tell them to. 

Training a dog is all down to common sense and not being silly soft with them. You are after all dealing with a dog. Yes, dogs can think and do. If a dog thinks it can be boss of you then it will be boss and you are in danger of being bitten. You must at all times be boss of the dog. You must stand tall, stand straight and your voice must have the edge of do that and your neck is in the loop boy!

Good luck with training, it can be fun too. Think of doing this with your dog. Put 4 plastic cups (upside down) on the floor in a semi circle, sit your dog down with you, put a treat under one of the cups and get your dog to touch the cup with the treat in it with either a paw or his/her nose. Then the dog gets the treat, now you can mix the cups up and again the dog must touch the cup with the treat in it. This bonds you and the dog and the dog has fun learning to do new things with you.

Laura


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Sorry, but I do not believe what you say. Hitting a dog on the rump with a rolled up newspaper. That's cruel and isn't needed. Dogs do not want to be the boss of you.

Simple "No" or "ah-ah" to prevent them doing something, and praise all the time when they are doing something right. Hitting or scaring them is cruel, as is throwing a dog outside for several hours. Very cruel and is not needed at all. A simple timeout in another room for a few minutes is all that is needed if you need to separate a dog.


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## Papillon (Dec 16, 2009)

What utter tosh. Since when have badly trained, disobedient dogs been dominating you? Oh, yes, since Cesar Millan...

Hitting them on a rolled-up newspaper? Nice, do you hit your children too, if they don't obey you, especially if you haven't bothered to train/educate them first?

Good grief.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

that i such wrong advice :nonod:

A dog is not dominating the human, its misbehaving due to lack of consistency in rules and the lack of training. And then because the human fails in those bits to take a newspaper and hit the dog or frighten it is just soo wrong.!

The newspaper works only because the dog gets frightened or feels pain and not because it start seeing the human as some sort of boss and submits to him :nonod: so wrong


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2010)

Has got to be a joke.....surely



Or written in 1951!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I agree, hitting your dog, training with fear, is not the right way to train a dog. geesh.

You want your dog to respect you, not be afraid of you.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Wow! Dogs that pull on the lead are dominant, how enlightening! And here was silly old me thinking they were just poorly trained...


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

> You must at all times be boss of the dog. You must stand tall, stand straight and your voice must have the edge of do that and your neck is in the loop boy!


Oh dear christ of a tricycle. People who talk like this make me wonder why on earth they even WANT a dog, if they feel dogs are trying to take over the world all the time.

*I want my dog to be* my friend, my constant companion, a source of joy and love and play and snuggles. I want my dog to be herself, to show the unique character she was born with. 
*I want to be my dog's* teacher, friend, companion, protector, safe-keeper and source of all things fun, interesting and tasty.

What I don't want is to feel like I'm the captain of the Bounty, constantly wary of any signs that there is a mutiny on my hands. If you feel like living with dogs is like that - and what you write does sound like it - then why on earth do you have dogs? Where's the enjoyment?


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## kezhulme (Jan 31, 2010)

Some dogs can be stubborn or difficult to snap out of a state of mind - flimsy rolled up newspaper is not going to hurt a normal sized dog its only going to grab its attention

Its equivalent to shaking a bottle with stones in

I certainly dont think this person is suggesting that you beat a dog

It all depends on the actual dog and the breed on how you discipline or train

We have two bassets who everyone knows can be stubborn at times, they walk into us and seriously bruise our legs without flinching - IF i used a rolled up newspaper on the bum I doubt they would wake up tbh

Now if I got a treat out of the tin... Id instantly snap them out of it


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

kezhulme said:


> Some dogs can be stubborn or difficult to snap out of a state of mind - flimsy rolled up newspaper is not going to hurt a normal sized dog its only going to grab its attention
> 
> Its equivalent to shaking a bottle with stones in
> 
> ...


Dogs are not 'stubborn'. If a dog doesn't do something it is asked, it either does't understand or isn't motivated enough to comply.

One of mine when called in from the garden will sometimes stand in the doorway and see what I have on offer then decide whether to come in based on whether I have a treat, or what treat it is. Is she being stubborn? No, she just likes being in the garden and so isn't prepared to come in unless it's something really decent. Just shutting her out doesn't work, as she likes being out there so much anyway. Baggage, but I wouldn't change her for the world!

There's no need to hit a dog with a rolled up newspaper or shake a bottle of stone at it for that matter.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

jackson said:


> Dogs are not 'stubborn'. If a dog doesn't do something it is asked, it either does't understand or isn't motivated enough to comply.
> 
> One of mine when called in from the garden will sometimes stand in the doorway and see what I have on offer then decide whether to come in based on whether I have a treat, or what treat it is. Is she being stubborn? No, she just likes being in the garden and so isn't prepared to come in unless it's something really decent. Just shutting her out doesn't work, as she likes being out there so much anyway. Baggage, but I wouldn't change her for the world!
> 
> There's no need to hit a dog with a rolled up newspaper or shake a bottle of stone at it for that matter.


absolutely agree. my dog could be termed stubborn, but he's clever and is quite difficult to handle. he thinks things through, if the thing i want him to do is of no benefit to him or it's not as enjoyable as what he's doing at the time, he won't do it. that means i have to up the stakes and be more interesting, more exciting and make everything fun so that he thinks, i'll do what she wants because she's making it fun and it is interesting.


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

Victoria Stilwell - View topic - Dominance: Dog V Human - taking over the world?

A dog pulling on the lead isn't dominating you. Doh...


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

My dog pulls on a lead, walks through doors before me, barges past me to get through a door, will be disobedient if he smells a rabbit, won't listen all the time, sits on my lap on the sofa, sits on the arms of the sofa above us, sleeps on any chair that is vacant.

Does all this mean my dog's being dominant?

Of course not. It's either through lack of training or the chairs/people are more comfortable to sit on than the floor. Simple as that.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Flippin' heck!  I thought this was going to be one of those jokey threads until I read on.  Someone needs to update their knowledge and do some more research into how dogs actually learn and think.  Or is this possibly a wind-up?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Surely its a wind up?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I remember my mum telling me never use a rolled up newspaper for discipline. It'll make the dog hate the paperboy. Whether that part was true or not it got the message through to me, and this was back in the 60's good job mum wish you were here....luv Jill


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

I read this a while ago but didnt reply coz I thought it was a wind up, but after reading all these comments it clearly isnt  who would want to hit an animal that relies on you for love, protection, care, food, warmth???????

WOULD THAT DOG EVER HIT YOU WITH A PAPER?????????

I dont think so!

What is good for one is good for another maybe someone should smack you with a paper and see how you like it.

Its such a shame when you see scared, lonley dogs that have been badly treated (not saying that yours has, just in general) and they still crave human attention and are the most loving animal. It makes you wonder why they bother, if I were a dog and was smacked with a paper I would bite your A**


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Problem is, I think that just because something works, people then think that must be the right way to do things... Instead of realising WHY it works and then understanding that there are better ways to go about getting the same result or better.

From the original post it seems like they think that people who don't train like this are 'soft' and will let their dogs walk all over them...and all these people's dogs will take over and will be more prone to bite!! 

But the point that people like this are missing is that you can get any results you want and in fact better results for sure than from aversive techniques, if you use positive fun training...! AND the bonus is that the dog will enjoy doing these things...along with the trainer/handler - and as such continuously building their bond.

Yes there are people who really are 'soft' on their dogs and let them run riot and do what they like - but then this is basically lack of training! People who practise positive training would not agree with these kinds of owners either, as this is also not fair on the dog...

I would rather my dog (and in fact anyone around me) did what I ask through love and respect rather than worry that I might rattle some stones in their face or wallop them round the head or backside with a rolled up newspaper!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

what a grand + glorious pile of aging compost... 
and un-like nice clean compost, what a ripe whiff downwind! peee-yeeeuuuww...

i personally seriously DOUBT that a coupla sessions of the old shell-game will get any dog to trust that same person, 
who previously whacked that dog with a rolled-paper, :thumbdown: or startled the dog by a smack on an object to make the dog jump / interrupt un-wanted behavior.

startling abruptly, threatening tones of voice ut: *Do it - Or Else... * - swatting the dog, gee what a happy home 
for k9 companions Urs must (not!) be...  when i die, i sure hope i am not reincarnated as one of YOUR dogs. :nonod: 
_ no, thanks all the same, beneficent Creatress, i;d much rather be a cockroach  or a housefly, if thats all right... _

who was it that said, * Hell is other people. * ? this may not be Hell, but its a purgatory for dogs, IMO.

*so... hows that workin for ya? * to quote Dr Phil :lol: :laugh:  
BTW - my 80# Akita bitch responded to whispered cues, even in noisy public settings! :001_tt2:

not taking this advice, :lol: instant rash! :blush2: in several unmentionable places... 
--- terry


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> BTW - my 80# Akita bitch responded to whispered cues, even in noisy public settings! :001_tt2: --- terry


well said terry! 

and yes, mentioning your Akita reminds me....why do people use the size of their breed as some sort of excuse as to why they need to resort to these kinds of methods to teach them??!!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> what a grand + glorious pile of aging compost...
> and un-like nice clean compost, what a ripe whiff downwind! peee-yeeeuuuww...


Am loving your way with words today Terry! 

I am still hoping that this is someones' idea of a sick wind up but then again, it's amazing what people will still do to dogs in the name of 'training'.

Linky time - http://smartdoguniversity.com/newsletters/2010/2_10Why_Do_We_Punish.pdf


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I would never hit my dogs with a newspaper . Your dog pulls on the lead? It's not complicated or hard to train it not too but thats the problem you haven't trained him not that he's trying to take over the world. I have a stubborn, yes he is stubborn and chooses whether or not to do things sometimes, but no he's not trying to dominate me but is from a breed that hasn't been bred for centuries to listen to humans mindlessly. He fails to do something I blame myself and rethink how I taught him it with a clicker by the way, not start pinning him to the floor or smacking him with a newspaper


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> well said terry!
> 
> and yes, mentioning your Akita reminds me....why do people use the size of their breed as some sort of excuse as to why they need to resort to these kinds of methods to teach them??!!


I think I win hands down. My 75-80kg dane is trained by "soft" methods. No really, he knows sit, lie down, go wee wee, paw/shake, get on your bed, stop it and "oi you get your dribbly face out of my tea"....and I've never had to resort to a newspaper, prong collar, slipper, shock collar or water spray.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I don't think your necessarily beating your dog with a newspaper lol and i'm sure you love them very much, but personally i think you're going down the wrong road. We have Alaskan Malamutes and Newfoundlands. One of them weighs more than me. They can be sooo stubborn at times lol . Especially Bronson - if he doesn't want to do something then give up and move on lol! But I've never had to hit them with a paper tbh. They would probably think it was lots of fun. Locking your dog out for hours too - I mean you're better locking her out for 10 minutes then letting her in and not paying her any attention. IMO anyway. I don't think shes trying to dominate you lol. Pulling on the lead - either train her not to or buy a halti. One of our Alaskan Malamutes can be very dominant around other males if theres a bitch there. He gets told no - firmly, then we distract him with something yummy. & yes he is dominant before anyone starts . Some dogs are genuinely dominant over certain things - no where near as many that are claimed to be but some are. Alot of the people on here can give you really good advice on different training methods from what your trying now. & btw, I don't hate Cesar Millan and i don't think that everything can be solved by stuffing a few treats in a dogs mouth either. I just think you need to adjust your thinking a bit . I'm sure you can achieve the same results, if you minus the newspaper lol. Nicole xx


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Btw  for those of you who think size doesn't matter - your right it doesn't. It's the brain size. Combine that with 11 stone of muscle and big green eyes. You have Bronson. Anyone thinks differently? Come down and try your techniques on our big man . I apologize in advance for laughing at you  Nicole xx


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Wow, thanks for the advice, OP!

We've got far too many sensible, knowledgeable and experienced people here, dishing out advice willy-nilly. A moron spouting nonsense about rolled up newspapers is JUST what we needed to balance things out nicely!


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

LisaLQ said:


> I think I win hands down. My 75-80kg dane is trained by "soft" methods. No really, he knows sit, lie down, go wee wee, paw/shake, get on your bed, stop it and "oi you get your dribbly face out of my tea"....and I've never had to resort to a newspaper, prong collar, slipper, shock collar or water spray.


he he, I like the "oi you get your dribbly face out of my tea" command...I need to teach that one 

yeah exactly! you see if you guys can do it using positive training, then I dont get why anyone uses size of breed as an excuse for having to use rough/aversive etc methods!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh but the big dogs are just so much more dominant  so you have to be harsh with them. As if most of them aren't big softies


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## fleurtess (Feb 3, 2010)

I beg to differ with the dominance of a dog over a human. A dog should never ever go before you through a door. I have Catalan Sheepdogs and they are a very dominant dog that do need to be shown who is boss or leader. There are other dogs that are the same. Yes, pulling on the leed is a dog saying to you I will do my own thing and that is a dog saying hey you follow where I go not I go where you want me to go. I would suggest that those of you who do not believe in being boss/leader of your dog should read Caesar Milans books. I have read them and they helped me so much with my Catalans. My Mini Poodles are a doddle to train and do exactly as they are told. I have a stair gate, when we are going to go to bed I tell the Catalans to go back, then I say Poodles go and they go up the stairs, the Catalans are told to stay and when I have gone up the stairs I call them by name and they come when called. That is training! And that is me being boss or leader of the dog. When you have a dog you must be either the boss or the leader of the dog, if more than one dog you must be leader of the pack.

Barking, chewing and other things are easily controlled once you are the leader or boss of the dog/s. If you treat your dog as though it were a toy to play with and do not give any definite instructions your dog does not know where its boundaries are, what it can or cannot do. Let your dog do anythig it wants to do and you comply with the dogs wishes then you are not the leader of your dog and your dog is boss or leader of you and that is not good for you or the dog.
Laura


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re the OP, post #29 -
> _ ...pulling on the leed is a dog saying to you * I will do my own thing and that is a dog saying hey you follow where I go not I go where you want me to go. *_


most-often, pulling on the lead (sp) is simply a dog who is more-eager than the handler, or as a simple fact, is FASTER than we are - humans dawdle along!  face it, even at their FASTEST humans cannot do much more than 15-mph, and that for a short time; even a 6-MO pup can outdistance a human in seconds. 
the average dog has no trouble hitting 30-mph and up - and Greys + Whippets can reach 40-mph.

most humans who refer to WALKING the dog as exercise, IMO are telling a joke;  they saunter along at 2 or 3-mph, and the dog is bored stiff. No * Bloody * WOnder! the dog tries to alleviate the boredom, or at least get the eejit 2-legger to _* Move!, dammit... *_ in the direction of their mutual goal.



> _ I would suggest that those of you who do not believe in being boss/leader of your dog should read Caesar Milans books. _


read the books; watched the series, EVERY episode until this Sept-2009; 
what did i learn? 
** that i do not like or approve his handling methods, and will not use them myself, nor recommend them to anyone; 
* that most of his **accurate** statements are decades or even centuries old - not that he mentions it, :blink: or attributes any of his predecessors; 
* that a lot of his own original statements are purest 200-proof double-distilled balderdash - 
 Energy cannot CURE aggression. *



> When you have a dog you must be either the boss or the leader of the dog, if more than one dog you must be leader of the pack.


leader? 
fine, but i am a benevolent leader, who watches over + watches out for my dogs - 
just as they watch over + watch-out for me, as a matter of fact. 
* i am Not however a dog - and i make no attempt whatever to BECOME a dog; i do not bite my dogs, fight my dogs, struggle for position in any non-existent hierarchy, or get down on all fours and howl on full-moon nights.  * 
dogs are DEPENDENT on me - and now + again, i am DEPENDENT on them, as they can see, hear, smell, etc, what i cannot. We are *partners* - not a slave-owner and slaves; not an operator and robots, either.



> Let your dog do anythig it wants to do and you comply with the dogs wishes then you are not the leader of your dog...


i provide the shelter we live in; the food the dog + myself eat; the schedule for meals, sleep, social outings, etc; ALL of the dogs opps to have excursions or fun, outside or inside. 
in short... i RUN the dogs life, so there is nothing to argue over; i already have all the marbles. 
what i make sure of, is that what the DOG *wants* to do, is the same thing that >> i << want the dog To Do... 
by making doggone sure that desireable behaviors have a rich history of reward, and UNdesired behaviors are either practically-impossible (mgmt) or fail to be rewarding.



> DOGS ARE JUST LITTLE PEOPLE IN FUR COATS AND 4 LEGS


if that were true, U would not be insisting that we need to *dominate* our dogs - 
as we could then appeal to their human-capable logic + reasoning, yes?

dogs R dogs... wolves R wolves... and primates R us. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I rather be a friend to my dogs than their boss. They dont work for me, they live with me :wink: Im their leader though in form of showing them directions in a positive way and providing shelter, food, attention and play 

A dog will do what it wants to do if not shown differently by consistant rules and training. It doesnt misbehave because it wants to take over the houshold or because its dominant... it misbehaves because the dog didnt recieve any guidance in form of training (reward based!) and NOT a rolled up newspaper to frighten it...

Cesar millan is not a trainer and a self proclaimed "behaviorist" without any proper knowledge about dog behaviour. But because his nasty methods work people fall for him and believe anything he says, without taking the possible damage happening to their dogs through his methods into consideration :nonod:



fleurtess said:


> If you have a dog that has a dominance problem, won't walk to heel (pulls on the lead) or is generally disobedient and a pain in the rear end. There is a very simple solution to it all.
> Laura


yep, and thats positive training and guidance and NOT the lazy and convinient way of frightening a dog not to do something undesireable with a rolled up newspaper !


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't believe in the stupid dominance theory rubbish!!
Dave pulls on the lead but he isn't trying to dominate me!
It simply means he needs a reminder of where I want him to be.
Punishing a dog because he doesn't understand what is expected of him is just cruel


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

fleurtess said:


> If you have a dog that has a dominance problem, won't walk to heel (pulls on the lead) or is generally disobedient and a pain in the rear end. There is a very simple solution to it all.
> 
> Take one Newspaper, roll it up and put celloptape around both ends and one in the middle. This banged on furniture, your hand or even the dogs rump does wonders. The dog will then see the "stick" and will sit back and think Whoa!! You can also use this when walking a dog that will insist on pulling, all you do is keep it in front of the dog while walking, soon you will not need it.
> 
> ...


I feel sorry for your dogs - bet they just love you to bits!
This is VERY POOR training advice to give to anyone and would encourage anyone having problems-the ones this poster mentions ARE NOT dominance related- to seek professional help.


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Wow, thanks for the advice, OP!
> 
> We've got far too many sensible, knowledgeable and experienced people here, dishing out advice willy-nilly. A moron spouting nonsense about rolled up newspapers is JUST what we needed to balance things out nicely!


Well said, CP! As some of you know, Im always open to new training methods and I havent yet tried the rolled up newspaper. Im thinking that different papers for different punishments would be worth a go: a rolled up Sunday Times for when Bingleys being especially dominant, a couple of pages from The Sun for when hes just being a big tease. When hes pulling on his lead, using the Daily Express would be appropriate I think; and if he tries dashing through the door ahead of me Ill use The Independent.

This IS all a big wind up, isnt it? Please say yes, because otherwise Ill be tempted to tell the OP to stop reading the drivel produced by self-promoting hacks and to pick up some books written by seriously well-informed dog trainers instead.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Can someone please tell me what breeds are dominant?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Can someone please tell me what breeds are dominant?


i think it depends what people view as dominant....

confidence, independence, strong-will for instance are traits which can be seen by people as dominance ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> ...stop reading the drivel produced by self-promoting hacks and to pick up some books written by seriously well-informed dog trainers instead.


WoW! :thumbup: succinct + illuminating... * **** * 4 paws up! 
rep for that... :thumbsup:

all my best, 
--- terry


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

According to the Howell Books of Dogs, sadly still steeped in the outdated theories of pack leadership, the Cane Corso is a dominant breed. I suppose if some people read that and nothing else they might think that they'd better whip out their rolled up newspapers. But seriously, has anyone tried this? I've just tightly rolled up a copy of our local paper and I found myself holding something with a pretty heavy heft. If I was to hit a dog with that I reckon it could cause some pain - is that the idea? Because if it is, I think a length of 2x2 would do the same job. Of course if anyone suggested doing that then I think that even the OP might think twice! But really, I would say to her, is there _that _much difference?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

A rolled up newspaper can be an effective pet training tool when used properly.

For instance, use the rolled-up newspaper if your dog chews up something inappropriate or has a housebreaking accident. Bring the dog over to the destroyed object (or mess), then take the rolled-up newspaper and hit yourself over the head as you repeat the phrase, "I forgot to watch my dog! I forgot to watch my dog!" (This could also be changed to "I have not bothered to train my dog properly" for lack of heel or recall etc.....


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## Papillon (Dec 16, 2009)

fleurtess said:


> A dog should never ever go before you through a door.


My last papillon's outings were like this: he'd either come and say 'woof, I need to go to the loo' or I'd wake him up by rattling his lead & collar combo and quickly open the door, hoping that I'd get it open before the greased lightning speed furball would hit it head on. He'd then run to the end of the drive where he'd wait for me to catch up. When I told him it's OK to carry on, he'd happily run/walk/bounce on, every so often pausing to check I'm following him, and always stopped before having to cross the road to wait for me to give him the go-ahead. He was hardly ever on lead. When we got home, he'd run to the doormat to wipe his feet, then ran into the bathroom while I wiped mine, and waited for me to wash his feet.

I never once thought that he was dominating me, it was just what he did. He told us when he needed to go to the loo and when he was hungry, or if his water bowl was empty, same as a child would do, and there's no dominance there.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> He told us when he needed to go to the loo and when he was hungry, or if his water bowl was empty, same as a child would do, and there's no dominance there.


which is definitely INFINITELY preferable to him *not!* telling U,  
good dog, good owners! :thumbup:

heck, i go one step further, and teach my dogs to ask Pretty-please for something they want, 
OTHER-Than the usual (a particular treat in the pet-supply, to go play with a special-buddy, etc) - 
whatever is on offer, at the moment. :thumbsup: 
--- terry


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> use the rolled-up newspaper if your dog chews up something inappropriate or has a housebreaking accident. Bring the dog over to the destroyed object (or mess), then take the rolled-up newspaper and hit yourself over the head as you repeat the phrase, "I forgot to watch my dog! I forgot to watch my dog!"


I write this in my puppy packs lol!


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't let my dosg go through the door before me, not because it will make them dominant though!

it's only the front door I do this with and they are trained to step aside if I ask them to any other door. But it is simple common sense to go out before your dog, I step out onto a pavement, don't want dogs getting tangled up with a passer by or walking into anyone.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah because there are doors where wolves live . Mine goes through doors before or after me it depends. On a walk I go out first because he gets too excited if he goes first but thats about it


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

My dogs are also fed at the table, (but can be told to bugger of and don't beg)
They are fed before me, sleep on my bed and are currently fast asleep on the couch.

Oh no, they are trying to take over the house!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh I know mine goes up on the furniture, even worse lies on the back behind our heads, eats before us most of the time, though he doesn't sleep on the bed he lies on it sometimes. I'm screwed aren't I


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## Papillon (Dec 16, 2009)

PoisonGirl said:


> My dogs are also fed at the table, (but can be told to bugger of and don't beg)


Ours had his own chair at the table so he wouldn't be left out of the conversation. He wasn't fed, though. As he'd already eaten... 

CM would have had a field day...


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

Papillon said:


> Ours had his own chair at the table so he wouldn't be left out of the conversation. He wasn't fed, though. As he'd already eaten...
> 
> CM would have had a field day...


as long as he doesnt snag your drumstick, thats awaesome! they are emebers of the family and dinnertime=family time!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

With regards to the original post i could write a whole long post about how my rescue boy was hit and now is still suffering issues. But i won't beacuse you don't deseve an explanation of any kind in my eyes.

But remember this statement from a dogs point of view............

''Before you hit, before you strike me, remember i could seriously hurt you, but i CHOOSE not to because i love you''


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## hobo99 (Aug 18, 2008)

The way the op reads to me make's me think that they dont have either the brains or the patience or maybe both to take the time and effort to train their dogs without resorting to violence .
I pity their animals . any type of violence towards an animal can backfire on you , and in my opinion in their case it would be well deserved.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

This persons signiture is a little contridicting to what its saying!

I think it doesn't know what its talking about :laugh::laugh:


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## hobo99 (Aug 18, 2008)

As i said , could be lack of brains ,:wink:


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

i dont think that humans need to be dominant 24/7, but what about the times when a dog MUST respond to you?? if a dog is used to having some freedom of choice in whether or not to come when he is called, etc, then what happens when he is in danger and you need him to come to you NOW? or what if he happily goes up to someone who is very afraid of dogs??
IMO, in these situations, the dog needs to be submissive. the dog cant understand the fact that a big truck is coming down the street that he is playing in. i think, *sometimes* dogs must do what you say just because you say so.

just my opinion.

and no, i dont think a newspaper is the way to accomplish this.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

A trained dog will come when you call because you have taught him to recall. It's not about him being "submissive" to the pack leader.


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## hobo99 (Aug 18, 2008)

Being dominant by hitting a dog will not make it want to come to you , just the oppsite i would have thought, i wouldnt go happily running to someone who hits me .
I think its just bully tactics , and seems to be done when the dog is restrained , stupid people.
My dogs come to me when i call them as thats what i have spent the time training them to do , and they are not scared of me .


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

huh....so how do you attain that happy medium?? no need to DOMINATE the dog lol, but still be sure that he will come when you call, and not just come becaused you have a treat??
clearly, i am new at this


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You train with a treat until they're doing it consistently and then phase treats out so give them it every other time or whatever. They will do it just for the command after a while. How do you train a recall through domination anyway? I wouldn't think hitting a dog or just walking through a doorway in front of would make a dog come to you instantly they have to learn what the command means


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

ahhh. i guess you can reward with affection instead of treats too right??

to train a recall thru domination? well, from waht ive seen on DW (to make it clear, i am not a fan, nor anti cm), its not just teaching individual commands. it seems like its teaching an overall mindset. like, not teaching the dog to not chew on the shoes SPECIFICALLY, but rather teaching that you are the owner of all items. and with permission, the dog may have access to certain items, only the items you allow. its kinda....weird. i think the premise is like, if a dog is eating out of a bowl, another dog that comes up to try and take some food from the bowl, well hes gonna put him in his place right? once the dog is told that "this bowl of food is mine, go get your own" then it will be respected.

i think?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Whatever motivates the dog so if he'll work for a hug/ear scratch or a tennis ball then train with that.

Yeah re-read that and see how much sense it makes. How does saying to a dog that ball is mine make him want to come back to you or listen without question? You have to teach dogs commands even Mr I'm not a trainer CM teaches sit, lie down and stay half of the time generally by yanking them into position using a choke chain but anyway. Just because you're the "pack leader" a dog isn't instantly going to understand what the word come means it has to be taught. I can understand the idea of restricting access to items even some positive trainers do it with say nothing in life is free where they have to sit to get anything. But it doesn't mean your dog is instantly going to listen to you. CM talks a load of crap.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kello82 said:


> _ huh... so how do you attain that happy medium?? no need to DOMINATE the dog :lol: but still be sure that s/he will come when... call(ed), and not just... because you have a treat??
> clearly, i am new at this  _


an off-leash recall With Distractions is post-graduate level schooling - 
so by the time the dog attains it, they are on average 18-MO to 2-YO and the rough equivalent of a Doctoral-candidate. 

U start with BEFORE + AFTER U Get Ur Pup... 
Free Downloads | Dog Star Daily

then U go to Levels training + proof thru-out learning... 
LevelBook

then U go to Reliable-Recall - to polish the gem  
Articles: Really Reliable Recall by Pamela Dennison at Positive Motivation Dog Training!

training (like learning) is lifelong... 
--- terry


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Mine still has trouble with it sometimes. He picks up a scent sometimes and it's hard to get him back. Terriers who'd have them 

I have never seen CM train recall. The one time he did have to recall Daddy he had to call him quite a few times to get him back


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

This could be a Poe.




Poe's Law (for dogs) - Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of dominance training that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing.


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## merlyn26 (Feb 4, 2010)

fleurtess said:


> If you have a dog that has a dominance problem, won't walk to heel (pulls on the lead) or is generally disobedient and a pain in the rear end. There is a very simple solution to it all.
> 
> Take one Newspaper, roll it up and put celloptape around both ends and one in the middle. This banged on furniture, your hand or even the dogs rump does wonders. The dog will then see the "stick" and will sit back and think Whoa!! You can also use this when walking a dog that will insist on pulling, all you do is keep it in front of the dog while walking, soon you will not need it.
> 
> ...


OMG! i cant believe i have just read this!!!!! - please please pull yourself out of the dark ages - dog training has seriously moved on a great deal in recent years (except for a certain CM!) positive reinforcement is a far better method, clicker training etc - hitting a dog is more likely to result in the dog turing round and biting you! please get some good books to read like karen pryor "doot shoot the dog" and re-think your training regime!


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

fleurtess said:


> I beg to differ with the dominance of a dog over a human. A dog should never ever go before you through a door. I have Catalan Sheepdogs and they are a very dominant dog that do need to be shown who is boss or leader. There are other dogs that are the same. Yes, pulling on the leed is a dog saying to you I will do my own thing and that is a dog saying hey you follow where I go not I go where you want me to go. I would suggest that those of you who do not believe in being boss/leader of your dog should read Caesar Milans books. I have read them and they helped me so much with my Catalans. My Mini Poodles are a doddle to train and do exactly as they are told. I have a stair gate, when we are going to go to bed I tell the Catalans to go back, then I say Poodles go and they go up the stairs, the Catalans are told to stay and when I have gone up the stairs I call them by name and they come when called. That is training! And that is me being boss or leader of the dog. When you have a dog you must be either the boss or the leader of the dog, if more than one dog you must be leader of the pack.
> 
> Barking, chewing and other things are easily controlled once you are the leader or boss of the dog/s. If you treat your dog as though it were a toy to play with and do not give any definite instructions your dog does not know where its boundaries are, what it can or cannot do. Let your dog do anythig it wants to do and you comply with the dogs wishes then you are not the leader of your dog and your dog is boss or leader of you and that is not good for you or the dog.
> Laura


I disagree withjust about everything you say...sorry but your advice is rubbish, Why should a dog not go before you through a door,,,,my dog wants to pee and she runs through the door before me then so be it, it just meas she's desperate to pee not that she wants to show me who's boss, she's never been smacked and she is well behaved, doesnt pull, doesn't chew furnature, doesn't go near food when we're eating, doesn't knock the kids over despite being a staff cross and _obviously_ a dangerous dog, she sits, lays down, gives high five (my daughter's game) and my 8 week old pup knows how to sit, pee outside...and ocasionally poo on the carpet lol...lay down, all taught by my fantastic 7 yr old staff cross and a lot more and not a rolled up newspaper in sight, if i got the newspaper out they'd just think playtime because they both play with balls of newspaper with my son

I would sugest my dear, that you put down your copy of the ceaser milan book and start using the common sense you where born with, that man is nothing but a bully, the eqivelant of allowing ian brady and mira hindly babysit your kids i think.....Are your dogs well trained or are hey too scared of you not to do as theyre told, it's a well known fact that dogs who are abused still give love and loyalty to their oners and i think that is so sad.

You're right, chewing and other things are easy controled.....Leave.....come.....ah ah ah ....and other such words, followed by a treat if they come....that works....and it might not be as quick as your rolled up newspaper but it works and is much more humane.

Puppys are like children they are playful, inquisitve, excitable....that needs controling not knocking out of them, i like to see hat side of them whenwe're having fun, god knows it took me enough time to see it in fizz after she came to me a nervous scared wreck.....if I hit her she's think,,,,,,here we go again because thats all she ever knew before me.

Sorry for going on folks but I'm annoyed now

Clare xx


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I have never seen CM train recall.


I imagine that most dogs can't wait to get AWAY from CM, and why would they ever want to run back?


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

kello82 said:


> i dont think that humans need to be dominant 24/7, but what about the times when a dog MUST respond to you?? if a dog is used to having some freedom of choice in whether or not to come when he is called, etc, then what happens when he is in danger and you need him to come to you NOW? or what if he happily goes up to someone who is very afraid of dogs??
> IMO, in these situations, the dog needs to be submissive. the dog cant understand the fact that a big truck is coming down the street that he is playing in. i think, *sometimes* dogs must do what you say just because you say so.


A dog still ALWAYS makes a choice - whether it's between obeying and punishment or between doing their own thing and being richly rewarded for obeying. That's why punishing a dog often doesn't work permanently - at some point the motivation for doing its own thing is going to be stronger than the fear, and then you've lost the dog, or it could turn dangerous.

With recall especially, any hint of anger / alpha-bullshit in you is only going to make the dog more reluctant to come. Think about it like this... if you work in an office and your manager calls you over to his desk in a stern tone, do you go immediately or do you spend 5 minutes fretting at your desk (or in the loos) first?

There are positive training methods for training reliable recalls:

Welcome to Dogwise.com


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Just thinking about this... "they are a very dominant breed" really means "they are not as praise/approval motivated as most dogs", doesn't it? So really you have to adjust the 'payment' until it is worth more to the dog than whatever it is wanting to do at that moment. 

I'm currently working on training the mother of all recall issues - calling my horse out of the field! Kind of like calling a dog out of a field of steak... 
Compared to dogs he's not praise motivated at all - sure, he likes it when I'm happy with him, but he sure won't chose that over anything even remotely interesting. He's food motivated, but I have yet to find the treat that weighs up against freedom + freefeed grass. We're still at the stage of practising in the indoor arena though, with low distraction (though scents on the ground are very distracting) and he is coming when called at about 30 metres now.


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## jessabella (Jan 29, 2010)

Oh Blimey Fleurtess,

Do you also believe that us women should never have been given the right to vote either?!

Lets come out of the dark ages!

Scaring a dog into submission is not a partnership!!

Yes they need boundaries but so do children, and when they cry, you don't simply raise your hand to them!!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> I imagine that most dogs can't wait to get AWAY from CM, and why would they ever want to run back?


<snorts with laughter> Love it!  You have it in a nutshell.

My 5 dogs do as I want them to because it is fun and they want to make me happy. They don't do it because they fear that I will punish them if they don't!


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## fleurtess (Feb 3, 2010)

i provide the shelter we live in; the food the dog + myself eat; the schedule for meals, sleep, social outings, etc; ALL of the dogs opps to have excursions or fun, outside or inside. 
in short... i RUN the dogs life, so there is nothing to argue over; i already have all the marbles. 
what i make sure of, is that what the DOG *wants* to do, is the same thing that >> i << want the dog To Do... 
by making doggone sure that desireable behaviors have a rich history of reward, and UNdesired behaviors are either practically-impossible (mgmt) or fail to be rewarding.

--- terry[/QUOTE]

Therefore you are master of your dog and not the other way around!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

fleurtess said:


> Therefore you are master of your dog and not the other way around!


She is the leader of her dogs yes, but can accomplish that without whacking her dogs into line with a rolled up newspaper? Go figure.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2010)

fleurtess said:


> Therefore you are master of your dog and not the other way around!


But there is a difference between _setting boundries, being in control and properly training the dog to respond accordingly to command_s etc and "dominating" them with a rolled up newspaper/threats, it is more about making sure the dog is aware of what is expected - a "disobedient" dog is often just a misunderstanding between what the human wants and how the dog interprets that - a dog that has not been properly taught how to walk to heel is unlikely to walk to heel when excited - not because its being dominant and needs to be scared into walking behind a weapon of choice (newspaper)

Making a dog fear you does not make you its boss. Im busters "boss", but because I supply his food, shelter, water and play, he does as i ask because it works in his favour to and eventually it becomes habit. Not because i can smack him if he misbehaves.


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## fleurtess (Feb 3, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> Wow, thanks for the advice, OP!
> 
> We've got far too many sensible, knowledgeable and experienced people here, dishing out advice willy-nilly. A moron spouting nonsense about rolled up newspapers is JUST what we needed to balance things out nicely!


I don't think name calling is called for on this very nice forum. If you consider me to be a moron then I am sorry to tell you that if the cap fits your wear it, it does not fit me! If you want to resort to play ground tactics of name calling then join a play group. I very much doubt that you even know what a Catalan Sheepdog is never mind own one.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

To put it simply - imagine you have an office job. It's not particularly unpleasant, but it's not what you'd do for fun.

Situation 1:
You are not paid or rewarded for your work, but you are threatened by your boss with bodily harm to make you go and do your work.

Situation 2: you are paid a good salary for your work, and your boss appreciates your efforts

Which situation is going to lead to resentment and unenthusiastic work? Situation 1. After a while, the threats might not work anymore, so your boss would have to escalate punishment. And at some point you might just decide that there's nothing in it for you at all, and hit him back.

Which situation is going to lead to you voluntarily going to work, and a happy relationship with your boss? Situation 2.

All behaviour pays off in some ways, for a dog. All positive reinforement training really does is make the behaviour that we want pay better than what we don't want, in whatever 'currency' the dog cares about (food, praise, play, access to outside, etc). Then we can make the choice even easier for him by making the behaviour we don't want less appealing or rewarding - thus guiding him toward the right choice. He makes the right choice, and bingo! payment! Next time he'll know how nice it was to make the right choice (= the behaviour we want) and it'll become easier each time.

Positive training doesn't mean no boundaries or rules. It doesn't mean your dogs run rampant. If just means that instead of a stick, you use a carrot - and you gain a relationship with your dog that revolves around you being the Source Of All Things Awesome, instead of around you being the Wielder Of The Rolled Up Newspaper.

Edit to add: I don't believe in some breeds being 'more dominant' - more likely, your dogs are more independent and thus harder to motivate than others. That just means you'll have to work harder at finding their 'currency', the thing that motivates them at that moment.


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

ArwenLune said:


> To put it simply - imagine you have an office job. It's not particularly unpleasant, but it's not what you'd do for fun.
> 
> Situation 1:
> You are not paid or rewarded for your work, but you are threatened by your boss with bodily harm to make you go and do your work.
> ...


I love your analogy.......have a rep point.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

fleurtess said:


> I very much doubt that you even know what a Catalan Sheepdog is never mind own one.


Well, I know what a Catalan Sheepdog is - I've met many of them at Champ Shows because they are on the Import Register and we compete against them with our bergies. I've even considered owning one - they have bergamasco in their genetic make-up and they remind me of smaller bergies without the maps. I have to say that I've never met one who seems overly-dominant. All the ones I've met have been happy, well-adjusted, well-trained dogs - and not a rolled-up newspaper in sight! 

Seriously though, if the bergie in their make up means they are as intelligent as bergies you will only be doing harm by training them to be afraid of you. A bergie considers himself to be on an equal par with his owner - they were bred over 2000 years ago to be the working partners of shepherds and to think for themselves. The trick of training such an intelligent dog is to get him to understand why you want him to do something, and to persuade him to do it when you ask, not to threaten him with pain. Simples!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> Positive training doesn't mean no boundaries or rules. It doesn't mean your dogs run rampant. If just means that instead of a stick, you use a carrot - and you gain a relationship with your dog that revolves around you being the Source Of All Things Awesome, instead of around you being the Wielder Of The Rolled Up Newspaper.


Brilliant post which has earned Rep from me too! :thumbup:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Catalan Sheepdog Club of Great Britain That's the breed club in Great Britain. Don't look like a massively 'dominant' breed to me?

Also, taken from 
Catalan Sheepdogs Breed Information | Catalan Sheepdog Puppies Breeders

Character:
Catalan Sheepdogs are highly intelligent and clever animals. Gentle with children and loyal to family members, these dogs are wonderful pets as well as excellent herders and guard dogs. Catalan Sheepdogs are also energetic and courageous.
Country of Origin:
Spain.
History:
The Catalan Sheepdog originated in Catalonia, Spain where it was used as a sheepdog. This breed has been in existence for quite some time and likely descended from the Pyrenees sheepdogs of ancient times. During the Spanish Civil War, this breed was used as a messenger dog and sentry. Today, Catalan Sheepdogs are still used as sheepdogs as well as guard dogs, police dogs, and pets. This breed is a rare in North America and is typically only found in European regions such as Catalonia, Sweden, and Germany.
Name:
This breed is named for its place of origin in Catalonia, Spain. Additional names for this breed include Catalonian Shepherd, Gos d'Atura Català, Perro de pastor catalán, and Catalonian Sheepdog.
Temperament:
Catalan Sheepdogs are very obedient dogs and will also work on their own initiative. With a well-balanced temperament, these dogs are calm and quiet companions as long as they receive sufficient exercise and activity.

So why the need to whack them into line with rolled up newspapers? Or is that just the easier option to proper training? :confused1:


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

fleurtess said:


> I beg to differ with the dominance of a dog over a human. A dog should never ever go before you through a door. I have Catalan Sheepdogs and they are a very dominant dog that do need to be shown who is boss or leader. There are other dogs that are the same. Yes, pulling on the leed is a dog saying to you I will do my own thing and that is a dog saying hey you follow where I go not I go where you want me to go. I would suggest that those of you who do not believe in being boss/leader of your dog should read Caesar Milans books. I have read them and they helped me so much with my Catalans. My Mini Poodles are a doddle to train and do exactly as they are told. I have a stair gate, when we are going to go to bed I tell the Catalans to go back, then I say Poodles go and they go up the stairs, the Catalans are told to stay and when I have gone up the stairs I call them by name and they come when called. That is training! And that is me being boss or leader of the dog. When you have a dog you must be either the boss or the leader of the dog, if more than one dog you must be leader of the pack.
> 
> Barking, chewing and other things are easily controlled once you are the leader or boss of the dog/s. If you treat your dog as though it were a toy to play with and do not give any definite instructions your dog does not know where its boundaries are, what it can or cannot do. Let your dog do anythig it wants to do and you comply with the dogs wishes then you are not the leader of your dog and your dog is boss or leader of you and that is not good for you or the dog.
> Laura


All rubbish. And if you're such a Cesar fan, I'd rethink your sig if I were you - isn't one of his "things" people treating dogs like people? He really wouldn't approve you know.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> I very much doubt that you even know what a Catalan Sheepdog is never mind own one.


No I've never owned one but I'm guessing it's a breed of dog. In which case it learns in exactly the same way as other dogs do


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Catalans aren't dominant and yes I do know what they are just extremely intelligent but not bred to mindlessly follow humans orders. Whats the name of your kennel if you breed them then we'll know to stay far away if one of us even wants a catalan?


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

ArwenLune said:


> To put it simply - imagine you have an office job. It's not particularly unpleasant, but it's not what you'd do for fun.
> 
> Situation 1:
> You are not paid or rewarded for your work, but you are threatened by your boss with bodily harm to make you go and do your work.
> ...


ah good comparison there!! i like it very much!!

maybe i am just repeating Situation 2 in a different way but this is how i see it:

the relationship is of equal give and take. You (dog) are provided with shelter, food, protection, safety, comfort, love, fun, activities, and social outings. And in return, a set of behaviors are expected from you.

i guess thats why i have trouble with the concept of Dog not coming when you call him/her just because playing outside is way better. Dog should come because you are the "source of all things awesome" (i like how u put that). in my mind, Dog should have that trust that your call is just another way that you provide for him/her.

not that Dog rationalizes that, thats not what im saying lol. 
just the concept overall that Dog knows that you=good. so no matter what the occasion, 'food!' 'play' 'come' or 'snuggle', you are ALWAYS the best option.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

fleurtess said:


> I don't think name calling is called for on this very nice forum. If you consider me to be a moron then I am sorry to tell you that if the cap fits your wear it, it does not fit me! If you want to resort to play ground tactics of name calling then join a play group. I very much doubt that you even know what a Catalan Sheepdog is never mind own one.


OMG How DARE you peak to a member on here like the're stupid....honestly...that is so rude, it's one thing dissagreing with what you say because that is very obviously bad advice but to say this to another member is plain rude


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

kello82 said:


> ah good comparison there!! i like it very much!!
> 
> maybe i am just repeating Situation 2 in a different way but this is how i see it:
> 
> ...


Yeah thats the best way to see it. The dog shouldn't come because he's scare of you or you've bullied him into submission but because awesome things happen when he does. He's much more likely to come hurtling back at full speed that way than not because he's scared you'll beat him


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

yah exactly. and he shouldnt come just because and only if you have a treat for him either. he should come becasue you ARE the treat!!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yes but you do need a treat/toy whatever to train it in the first place.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

yup i gotcha on that one. hmm lets see....yummy treat or newspaper...what should i choose....


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

kello82 said:


> yup i gotcha on that one. hmm lets see....yummy treat or newspaper...what should i choose....


Fizz would take the newspaper but only to shred up all over the floor, which is one of her fave passtimes haha.........maybe if I hit her with it she'll stop eh NOT


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

This thread makes me feel sorry for the dogs of the OP.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> This thread makes me feel sorry for the dogs of the OP.


Me too, the poor things are more likely to be frightned more than obedient:crying:....I could never smack my pooches


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Clare7435 said:


> Me too, the poor things are more likely to be frightned more than obedient:crying:....I could never smack my pooches


As ive said before ive smacked Cassie. Only with an open hand on her rump to gain her attention when she has been 'upto something' never to hurt her or scare her into being obedient. I dont think hitting and training belong in the same sentence.......


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

i agree with you claire, i think theres a difference between a HIT and a TOUCH. i think its ok to smack (like you would to kill a mosquito that landed on your arm) Dog's bum or to give a light poke redirect his/her attention back to you. it says "hey, im here. im watching youuuu "


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

kello82 said:


> yah exactly. and he shouldnt come just because and only if you have a treat for him either. he should come becasue you ARE the treat!!


I never get why people are bothered so much with _why_ their dog does something. If a dog only comes to cal for a treat, or a ball, but wll do so every single time without fail, whatever the distraction, so what? It is the coming that is important, not why.

Why is only important if the reason your dog does somethng means the times when they do it will be limited.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

But what if they only come for a treat and you don't have one. I train with treats but phase them out until he's just doing it for the command


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

kello82 said:


> i agree with you claire, i think theres a difference between a HIT and a TOUCH. i think its ok to smack (like you would to kill a mosquito that landed on your arm) Dog's bum or to give a light poke redirect his/her attention back to you. it says "hey, im here. im watching youuuu "


LOL thats it, Perfect example was when Cassie had my mums cat stuck under the shed she wouldnt move and was fixated with him. She wouldnt leave him alone and return when called so I walked up behind her and tapped her on her backside which sort of bought her back lol she realised where she was and left him alone. it was simply used to regain her attention because she wanted to eat the cat.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

this is just MY opinion, but i think it is important mostly for situations where you dont have any currency, and Dog, due to danger to himself or others, MUST come to you. if he come for his currency and you dont have any, then youre screwed.
like i said, just my opinion.

and also it has to do with bond and trust stuff you know? i posted essentailly the same thing on the previous page. i wont go into repeating it here.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

My god this thread gets more stupid everytime I come back to it! LOL 

I have NEVER had to dominate my dogs to train them! Dixie has 100% recall she comes back because she WANTS to not because she is submitting! I have worked long and hard to ensure that my dogs WANT to be near me.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

PoisonGirl said:


> My god this thread gets more stupid everytime I come back to it! LOL
> 
> I have NEVER had to dominate my dogs to train them! Dixie has 100% recall she comes back because she WANTS to not because she is submitting! I have worked long and hard to ensure that my dogs WANT to be near me.


I wish I could get 100% recall but I have tried and its just never 100%


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## hobo99 (Aug 18, 2008)

fleurtess said:


> I beg to differ with the dominance of a dog over a human. A dog should never ever go before you through a door. I have Catalan Sheepdogs and they are a very dominant dog that do need to be shown who is boss or leader. There are other dogs that are the same. Yes, pulling on the leed is a dog saying to you I will do my own thing and that is a dog saying hey you follow where I go not I go where you want me to go. I would suggest that those of you who do not believe in being boss/leader of your dog should read Caesar Milans books. I have read them and they helped me so much with my Catalans. My Mini Poodles are a doddle to train and do exactly as they are told. I have a stair gate, when we are going to go to bed I tell the Catalans to go back, then I say Poodles go and they go up the stairs, the Catalans are told to stay and when I have gone up the stairs I call them by name and they come when called. That is training! And that is me being boss or leader of the dog. When you have a dog you must be either the boss or the leader of the dog, if more than one dog you must be leader of the pack.
> 
> Barking, chewing and other things are easily controlled once you are the leader or boss of the dog/s. If you treat your dog as though it were a toy to play with and do not give any definite instructions your dog does not know where its boundaries are, what it can or cannot do. Let your dog do anythig it wants to do and you comply with the dogs wishes then you are not the leader of your dog and your dog is boss or leader of you and that is not good for you or the dog.
> Laura


Well you sure do talk a load of twaddle , i am begining to wonder if you are scared of your "dominant"  dogs and that is why you need to hit them , be carefull they dont get fed up with it and turn on you .:wink:


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

I think that its interesting that this thread has now reached page 10, with over 1200 views, but that nobody has stepped forward in defence of the OP. I would hope that Laura might find that thought provoking and that shed concede that there are other, more effective and certainly kinder, ways of training a dog. But maybe more than that, I wish someone _would _come to her defence! :smile5: Laura cant be the only person here who thinks that the theories of dominant pack leadership still have some currency.

Does anyone have a reasoned line of argument that might persuade me that hitting my dog with a rolled up newspaper, and actively dominating him, is a more effective method of dog training than some of the positive approaches mentioned by the others?


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> I wish I could get 100% recall but I have tried and its just never 100%


Dave's recall is about... 0% right now! :crying: It's just gone out the window! Lol

I dunno what it is about Dixie compared to any other dog I've had, got a really strong bond with her she's defo a mummys girl 
I used to hide from her if she didn't come back quick enough! Lol

She started learning recall off my big dogs when I got her (had an almost fully traned gundog to teach her lol) I hoped Dave would learn from her but he just looks at me as if t say ''bugger off!'' an goes an does his own thing! Lol


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> ...he just looks at me as if t say ''bugger off!'' an goes an does his own thing! :lol:


maybe a stoopid Q - but i;ll ask anyhow!  is he desexed? 
even when theres no F in estrus, intact-Ms can get stuck on sniffing for other Ms, over-marking everybody, checking to see who was last here, etc. 
that can tip the odds away from come-when-called... 
just a thought, 
--- terry


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

jackson said:


> I never get why people are bothered so much with _why_ their dog does something. If a dog only comes to cal for a treat, or a ball, but wll do so every single time without fail, whatever the distraction, so what? It is the coming that is important, not why.
> 
> Why is only important if the reason your dog does somethng means the times when they do it will be limited.


Yeah that always baffles me too Jackson.

The words "control freak" always spring to mind when someone bangs on about how awful it is to use rewards/treats and how much better it is if your dog does things "for you". The concept that dogs do things either a) To GET nice things or b) To AVOID bad things and as such, aren't doing it "for you" either way never seems to compute for some reason...


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> But what if they only come for a treat and you don't have one. I train with treats but phase them out until he's just doing it for the command


If you're using treats in the right way, ie as a REWARD and not a BRIBE, then it won't matter if you don't have one. The dog will come anyway.

As long as it's "Well done - you did what I asked, here's a yummy treat" and not "Oooh look, yummy treat *wave, dangle* - you can have it if you sit when I tell you" then even if you're not at the "phasing out treats" stage quite yet, the odd occasion of forgetting them won't be too much of a problem


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

kello82 said:


> this is just MY opinion, but i think it is important mostly for situations where you dont have any currency, and Dog, due to danger to himself or others, MUST come to you. if he come for his currency and you dont have any, then youre screwed.
> like i said, just my opinion.
> 
> and also it has to do with bond and trust stuff you know? i posted essentailly the same thing on the previous page. i wont go into repeating it here.


For that reason, it's quite important to link a treat (even if that's all your dog is interested in to start with) with, say, a ruffle or an ear scratch - so that the dog starts to see such interation as just as rewarding as the treat and then you'll NEVER be out of currency (unless you lose both arms in a freak Waste Disposal Unit accident or something).

Some months ago, my dog learned to shut the back door when I asked her to. She's been doing it, on command, every night since - but hasn't had a treat for it beyond the "learning" stage. Reason - at certain times (in the evenings) she generally gets far less fuss and attention. Virtually none, in fact. I want to relax and watch telly and I want the dogs to relax, so they know that evening time is "settle" time. Therefore, a fuss in the evenings is HIGHLY prized; a rare treat.

Different currency for different times/situations


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok how do you train them to shut the back door? It would really come in handy


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> Ok how do you train them to shut the back door? It would really come in handy


I taught a paw target first, C/T'ing for hitting it with her paw. Used a post-it note.

Then moved on to putting the Postit on the door - gradually moving it higher and higher until she had to stand on her back legs to hit it.

Then phased out the Postit.

The door at this point was only open an inch so it was nice and easy for her to click it shut.

Then moved on to clicking at the point the door clicked shut.

Once she understood that it was the THUD of the door shutting that made me click, gradually had the door further and further open, so she sometimes needed to work a bit harder/try a couple of times to get it to shut.

Then worked on distance - to start with we were right next to the door so we worked on her actually walking away from me to the door.

The bit that took longest, and we had to go back a step, was when we were in the other room and she couldn't actually SEE the back door. So we practised a bit nearer for a couple of sessions.

As soon as she had got the hang of clicking the door shut, I introduced the cue "get the door".

Didn't take too long, and she'll now run to the door from anywhere, and close it. Very handy in the cold weather!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Thank you it will be handy in the evenings when it's really cold and we can't be bothered getting up to shut it


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

These are great videos:

YouTube - Dog Training: Teach Your Dog to Shut Doors Part 1 Clicker
YouTube - Part 2 of Train Your Dog to Shut Doors using Targeting & the Clicker


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> Thank you it will be handy in the evenings when it's really cold and we can't be bothered getting up to shut it


That's precisely why I taught her 

I open it for her though. Toyed with the idea of teaching her to open it herself but thought better of it. Not sure I wanted a dog who could open doors! I've known of people who ended up having to put all their handles on upside down to stop escapees


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

He's too small to open it anyway but I would never teach him to open a door on his own


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

Treacle is a GSP and she goes on "missions" on our walks, she can go AWOL for 10-15 minutes at a time, and 50 minutes on one occassion!(I hasten to add it is a very safe country park that we know like the backs of our paws).
However most days she goes roaming for just a few minutes at a time, but she comes back to the whistle. Unfortunately not as promptly as I would like, *BUT* when she comes bombing towards me like a greyhound, tongue lolling, and sits sharply and smartly in front of me so very happy with her world as she knows her mum is going to treat her or just praise her and fuss her because she is soooo good to come, it gives me a buzz. Chastise her or hit her for not coming back immediately? No I don't think so.... ever. Her pleasure in returning to me is so evident it gives me great joy, why would I want her to come through fear just to be dominant over her?


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Were teaching roll over at the minute. Cassie is picking it up well but as she rolls over she gets half way then starts to act silly. I get up and walk away then try again later but we cant seem to get past it, am I doing the right thing walking away? she is good, she lays down and starts to roll over but soon as her legs get in the air she goes silly crazy dog lol

I know its off subject but thought someone might be able to answer me lol


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> maybe a stoopid Q - but i;ll ask anyhow!  is he desexed?
> even when theres no F in estrus, intact-Ms can get stuck on sniffing for other Ms, over-marking everybody, checking to see who was last here, etc.
> that can tip the odds away from come-when-called...
> just a thought,
> --- terry


Yeah, he was neutered at 7mo because his peeing Everywhere and humping was becoming a problem!

It's not even that hes away sniffing, there are very few dogs walked where we go, its just he's coming into his teenage phase but we start dog class on friday so I'm hoping that helps!


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> But what if they only come for a treat and you don't have one. I train with treats but phase them out until he's just doing it for the command


How will the dog know you have a treat or not until it gets to you?

One of mine recalls to a ball. She is not in the slightest food motivated. I always have a ball on walks anyway, but she is conditioned that 'come' means she gets to play ball. I have no doubt at all that if I didn't have my ball one day in an emergency she would still come to the word 'come', but if I do it too often in 'normal' circumstances, the word will no longer be associated with the ball and the rabbits or whatever she wants to chase will again become more interesting than recalling. SO, I'll save not having the ball, in her case, for emergencies.

I do use treats for my other dogs, and I do phase them out, but still use a large number of treats, as I like to keep them as motivated as possible.

Dogs are only in it for themselves, if they do something for you, it is because they are sufficiently motivated to do so. Either because they want whatever reward they might get, or because they want to avoid what will happen if they don't comply. It is well documented that dogs after a reward will always try that little bit harder...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yes even now he'll get some treats for coming back sometimes just to keep him interested but I would rather not give him one everytime he comes back


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I never used treats for recall with Dixie. She learned from the big dogs and from the praise in my voice.
Dave isn't interested in treats outside anyway.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> re jackson -
> _ Dogs are only in it *for themselves... *
> if they do something for you, it is because they are sufficiently motivated to do so. Either... they want whatever reward they might get, or... they want to avoid what will happen if they don't comply. * It is well documented that dogs after a reward will always try that little bit harder...*_


yup!  
and there is nothing wrong with that motivation - in fact, it works to our advantage, as we can then manipulate the rewards or consequences in *favor* of the behavior that we want. :thumbsup:

there is a wonderful story about an elephant and 2 trainers - 
but i will give it a thread all its own, as it would digress considerably. 

suffice to say that _ anyone who works ONLY to avoid pos-P will do the least possible, 
only enuf to avoid the bad-thing -_ whereas anyone motivated by the prospect of Reward - pos-R - 
* is always aware that the reward may improve, with better performance - * there might be more, or higher-quality, etc.

happy training! 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> ...as she rolls over she gets half way then starts to act silly. I get up and walk away then try again later but we cant seem to get past it, am I doing the right thing walking away?


maybe she feels a wee bit anxious over being belly-up, and this is displacement - 
or perhaps she has ants in her pants, and needs to get goofy + let off some steam.

i would try to escalate the playfulness, and see if U can bleed-off enuf silliness that she can then settle down and concentrate a bit - playing with her while she is tummy-up will not wreck the roll-over training, and letting her be a total dingbat for 5-mins might bring her back to earth...  
an old bath-towel to sit on the floor behind U, and bring out to play with AFTER she begins wriggling + kicking, would probably be my choice - i would rumple it over her belly + chest, dangle it over her head, let her grab + pull it, etc. 
putting it over her face is another game some dogs adore!  
2 or 3 minutes of tug should get her semi-sober + ready for a lesson.

happy training, 
--- terry


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## misscullen (Feb 7, 2010)

hello

have you got a mind thats sooooo cruel you just havent trained it terrible

what rubbish


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> maybe she feels a wee bit anxious over being belly-up, and this is displacement -
> or perhaps she has ants in her pants, and needs to get goofy + let off some steam.
> 
> i would try to escalate the playfulness, and see if U can bleed-off enuf silliness that she can then settle down and concentrate a bit - playing with her while she is tummy-up will not wreck the roll-over training, and letting her be a total dingbat for 5-mins might bring her back to earth...
> ...


Good idea, she isnt getting the sillyness out of her system when im just walking away, I see . I will try this and let you know  thank you


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## returnapet (Oct 8, 2009)

This method is wrong,and can only create the fear factor,which on the outside can cause problems,bolting etc...IF YOU TRAIN YOUR DOG TO WAIT BEFORE YOU ALLOW HIM THROUGH A GATE,OR DOOR?REWARD HIM FROM TIME TO TIME AND HE WILL GROW TO RESPECT YOU AND FOLLOW YOUR MOVES,LET THE DOG PLAY WITH HIS LEAD,ALSO USE THE LEAD TO MOTIVATE BEFORE YOU TAKE HIM OUT.....YOU TELLING HIM WHEN THE GAMES OVER,BY TAKING HIM ON A NICE WALK...HAVE THE DOG TO SIT AND WAIT FOR HIS FOOD,WITH GOOD PRAISE FOR COMPLIANCE.....HE WILL START TO DEPEND ON YOU AND NOT BE SO DOMINATE,IF IN TRANSIT,MAKE HIM WAIT A FEW MOMENTS,BEFORE ALLOWING HIM OUT,ALL THIS HAS A METHOD WILL KEEP HIM KEEN,FOR YOUR ATTENTION..CLICK YOUR FINGERS FOR DISRUPTING,AND GETTING ATTENTION...NEWSPAERS ROLLED UP ARE A NO NO,AND MAY LEAD TO AGRESSION,OR NERVOUSNESS.....BEST OF LUCK:smile5:


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

Inkdog said:


> I think that its interesting that this thread has now reached page 10, with over 1200 views, but that nobody has stepped forward in defence of the OP. I would hope that Laura might find that thought provoking and that shed concede that there are other, more effective and certainly kinder, ways of training a dog. But maybe more than that, I wish someone _would _come to her defence! :smile5: Laura cant be the only person here who thinks that the theories of dominant pack leadership still have some currency.
> 
> Does anyone have a reasoned line of argument that might persuade me that hitting my dog with a rolled up newspaper, and actively dominating him, is a more effective method of dog training than some of the positive approaches mentioned by the others?


you bring up an interesting point my friend!!

while i do not wish to initiate any sort of discussion of right and wrong, ill bite.

i dont agree with using the rolled up newspaper, but i do see the place that touch has in training. a mosquito smack or poke i think is fine for redirecting a dogs attention. with a newspaper, i dont think you have as much control over the pressure applied to the dog, so i dont think thats a good idea, but the concept? i kinda get it.
say a mom tells her kid to go clean his room and he refuses. if she starts poking him, well its not hurting him, but its annoying enough that he'll eventually get up and go do it. 
while dogs are not humans, no, but i think the concept still applies. touch can have a significant impact in training. and yes, it can have a positive impact and achieve goal without harming the dog.
however, this is where things seem to go grey. how much is to much? so a poke is ok, now what about CMs famous 'fingertip bite'? and a tap with the toes is ok but what about a kick??
(those are rhetorical btw) those are questions everyone can ask themselves and we as individuals are allowed to disagree in how much is too much and exactly how we define say a "kick". is a tap a kick? IMO, no but others feel differently.

overall, i support the concept of touch, but i have my own limits as to what is too much. as do we all.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I've never heard so much BS in my life   If people feel the need to do this to an animal I truly feel for them! This is never the way to train your dog


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I've just read out the original post to my other half. I won't repeat what he said as there are children who read this forum. :huh:

Sadly you know, there will be people out there who do 'train' their dogs like this. Even more now with the resurgence in 'dominance' methods promoted by you-know-who. All we can do is to educate newer owners and to encourage the kinder methods of training.

It is to everyones credit here though that this thread has not turned nasty? Maybe it is because most are incredulous at that first post?


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

I know this is abit extreme but IMO *I think this thread should be deleted*, people are commenting on it in intoductions, its putting newbies off AND what if some idiot reads it and thinks its a good idea and decides to adopt the methods with there poor dogs???????


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

ClaireLouise said:


> I know this is abit extreme but IMO *I think this thread should be deleted*, people are commenting on it in intoductions, its putting newbies off AND what if some idiot reads it and thinks its a good idea and decides to adopt the methods with there poor dogs???????


i know!! i just read that thread too. i was like omg this is not good.....
not the first thing some one should see on here.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> I know this is abit extreme but IMO *I think this thread should be deleted*, people are commenting on it in intoductions, its putting newbies off AND what if some idiot reads it and thinks its a good idea and decides to adopt the methods with there poor dogs???????


Have to agree Claire though not sure how I missed it in the first place


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Too many threads are deleted and closed though that also contain good information? People can make their own minds up surely and we should not be hiding them from the less pleasant side of dog training that some indulge in. They should be aware that it happens and that it is frowned upon for them to realise what fun positive training is.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Too many threads are deleted and closed though that also contain good information? People can make their own minds up surely and we should not be hiding them from the less pleasant side of dog training that some indulge in. They should be aware that it happens and that it is frowned upon for them to realise what fun positive training is.


Yeah I guess but not everyone would see it as bad advice some will follow it. It doesnt set a nice example of the forum imo,,,,


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> Yeah I guess but not everyone would see it as bad advice some will follow it. It doesnt set a nice example of the forum imo,,,,


Yes I know what you mean but there is a lesson to be drawn from this thread and it has remained civil despite the level of feeling so it just proves it can be done. Maybe it could be closed but with a note that PetForums does not endorse the method recommended by the OP?


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Yes I know what you mean but there is a lesson to be drawn from this thread and it has remained civil despite the level of feeling so it just proves it can be done. Maybe it could be closed but with a note that PetForums does not endorse the method recommended by the OP?


thats a good idea i like that. 
like you said, this thread is a good one, would be a shame to be deleted.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> It doesnt set a nice example of the forum imo,,,


i would have to politely disagree - as it is *Precisely* because this was such an OTT opening post, with all the potential for major flaming, that makes it an exceptional treasure trove of good info. 

besides... 
it is not ALL about the OP / post #1, there are * several other interesting topics, references, etc, that came into the thread, which are detours from the ugly start - and are themselves valuable for anyone reading, * who has similar Qs or training problems.

JMO, but i thought it was an excellent response to a possible-windup!  and definitely a possible stick in a hornets nest... i think the respondents get points! 

JMO but i would Keep It! :thumbup: 
--- terry


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Oh god no, please don't delete it. This is one of the few topics that actually turned out interesting and informative instead of a flame-fest. I'd rather that a newbie read the original post and then all the responses (or even just the first few pages) than that they never see all the arguments.

I'm a firm believer that _restricting information is never the answer_


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't think it should be deleted locked maybe but not deleted


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i would have to politely disagree - as it is *Precisely* because this was such an OTT opening post, with all the potential for major flaming, that makes it an exceptional treasure trove of good info.
> 
> besides...
> it is not ALL about the OP / post #1, there are * several other interesting topics, references, etc, that came into the thread, which are detours from the ugly start - and are themselves valuable for anyone reading, * who has similar Qs or training problems.
> ...


I absolutely agree! Even thinking about that kind of censorship plays, in this case, right into the hands of those people who support training dogs using bully tactics. We should be able to discuss issues like this openly and in a civil manner, otherwise how will we ever begin to make any progress in moving people away from using cruel and antiquated training methods?


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Hudson pulled me on the lead today but there was no newspaper handy . Such dominance! Or maybe he just really really wanted to go to the park and run about like a loony . x


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> I absolutely agree! Even thinking about that kind of censorship plays, in this case, right into the hands of those people who support training dogs using bully tactics. We should be able to discuss issues like this openly and in a civil manner, otherwise how will we ever begin to make any progress in moving people away from using cruel and antiquated training methods?


Right on! :thumbsup: It is educational. Nothing is ever to be gained from sticking heads in sand and pretending that things like this don't happen so are not open for discussion.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Hudson pulled me on the lead today but there was no newspaper handy . Such dominance! Or maybe he just really really wanted to go to the park and run about like a loony . x


Well, if you use the rolled up newspaper as a fetchy-toy, you could use it to make him heel! He'll be so focussed on his fav toy that he'll stay right next to you :idea:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I have just posted on another thread about when my dog was a nervy teenager, I was able to prove to him that a motorcycle crash helmet lying on the pavement wasn't a severed human head and got him over that fear.

It can work both ways... I once caught him eating one of my socks. So instead of telling him off, I told the sock off. Bad sock! Nasty sock! bash bash. Evil sock! Grr! I didn't lay a finger on my dog, but he was worried and backed away and hasn't touched a sock since.

Sometimes all it takes is being able to think outside the box.

All the OP is doing is a very good training course in how to teach her dogs to mortally afraid of newspapers.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> ...the OP is doing...a very good... course in how to teach her dogs to (be) mortally afraid of newspapers.


:lol: :thumbup: :laugh: i love it!  and very true, too


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