# Hooligan Oscar ?? HELP



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

OK so Oscar has started randomly going for other dogs .


I am totally baffled. He has taken a dislike to the odd dog previously but that has generally been when the other dog has been over playful with him or too full on but this is different.

He is reacting very aggresively to dogs he isn't familiar with with NO provocation  On and Off lead 

I said the other day it's as if someone has re attached his dangly bits, it's that sort of testosterone fuelled GRRRrrrrrr type behaviour. 

HELP !!!!! I have really got used to just letting him off and not worrying about him at all and anyone who was at the group walk the other day will tell you he was absolutely fine and sociable with all the dogs he had never met before despite being very anxious at the beginning of the meet (which i think is an important point to note as this behaviour has been since the group meet)

What the hell can i do about it, i just had to have him onlead for most of his walk because i was nervous about his reaction to other dogs and thats a massive downer !!!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Doesn't neutering and anxiety shown at the meet, point to a fear based "keep away" type of agressive display (lots of noisy growling & barking any lunging be more for effect than doing damage), or is he actually full on attacking and biting in truly aggressive manner with little or no apparent warning?

You might be wise to consult vet for behvioural change without obvious explanation. To get better suggestions, perhaps give more info, like how long ago he was neutered, age and describe typical incident in more detail.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Poor Oscar - & you! 

He was lovely on the walk wasn't he - no probs at all with any of the other dogs there.

Sorry, I can't give any advice but maybe a trip to the vet may be needed if he is acting like this for no reason.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Doesn't neutering and anxiety shown at the meet, point to a fear based "keep away" type of agressive display (lots of noisy growling & barking any lunging be more for effect than doing damage), or is he actually full on attacking and biting in truly aggressive manner with little or no apparent warning?
> 
> You might be wise to consult vet for behvioural change without obvious explanation. To get better suggestions, perhaps give more info, like how long ago he was neutered, age and describe typical incident in more detail.


Sorry i just assume everyone on here knows Oscar  

He is 2 now had the snip at about a year. He is what a would call a fear reactive dog definately but these incidents don't seem fear based particularly.

He was very nervous at the start of the meet but once walking showed absolutely no sign of being nervous or fearful, quite the opposite really, he was very sociable.

One incident the other day i will describe, He approached an on lead shitzhu, tail wagging, polite sniffing no problems then BAM, hell for leather at the poor dog, the owner must have been concerned because he actually picked his dog up off the floor.

Then today both off lead met a cockerpoo (he has met this dog before, its an adolescent) the cockerpoo was a bit "enthusiastic" but Oscar seemed fine, bit of chase me chase me stuff then BAM, aggression. Despite the other dog running away Oscar seemed intent on persuing so it didn't seem to me like he was "seeing the other dog off" out of fear  We went the other way round the circuit and when we met them again i made Oscar sit and tried some focus with treats but as this dog walked passed him he went for it again (obviously he was onlead by this stage and so was the other dog)

Tried him later with an older lab we have seen once or twice and Oscar was perfect, not a hint of it and very respectful, was hoping in a way he might have tried it on with the lab because i think the Lab might have put him in his place a bit.

Not sure if there is any connection these dogs have i.e what sex they are, age etc. I definately think it's more likely with dogs that are younger and smaller or same size a him rather than older larger dogs from what i have observed.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Could it be at 2 he's maturing and finding his place in the dog world :confused1: Not the best words - but hopefully you know what I mean.
Zipper at that age was pretty agro at younger male dogs - he disn't care about size, he managed to chase off a 1 yaer old Lab and had the Lab cornered against a wall , even now (at 4) he will often try to hump them I assume he's trying to tell them he's the big man.
I just kept Zipper on a long line for a while, rewarded calm behaviour and he mostly grew out of it.
He still occassionally trys to put a younger dog in it's place and seems to take a dislike to about 5% of the general dog population


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Fleur said:


> Could it be at 2 he's maturing and finding his place in the dog world :confused1: Not the best words - but hopefully you know what I mean.
> Zipper at that age was pretty agro at younger male dogs - he disn't care about size, he managed to chase off a 1 yaer old Lab and had the Lab cornered against a wall , even now (at 4) he will often try to hump them I assume he's trying to tell them he's the big man.
> I just kept Zipper on a long line for a while, rewarded calm behaviour and he mostly grew out of it.
> He still occassionally trys to put a younger dog in it's place and seems to take a dislike to about 5% of the general dog population


These are my thoughts on it. It is definately the sort of behaviour he had started to display just before i got him done. Real big boy cocky wotsits 

I do wonder if he just needs putting in his place a bit but if it is fear based in any way (which i am not convinced it is because he is too confrontational and doesn't return to me after the incidents unless i firmly call him in or catch him) it might make him worse


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think your first stop should be the vet, to be honest. Have you seen the thread about the young rottie who suddenly bit someone out of character. Vet found an enlarged heart and some other problems. That should be your first stop, I think.

If all is ok, then I will bring my two up to sort him out - how's that:001_rolleyes:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I think your first stop should be the vet, to be honest. Have you seen the thread about the young rottie who suddenly bit someone out of character. Vet found an enlarged heart and some other problems. That should be your first stop, I think.
> 
> If all is ok, then I will bring my two up to sort him out - how's that:001_rolleyes:


He is due for a clip next week and i wonder if his coat is giving him some grief. He is also due his jabs but i was putting it off because i hadn't decided wether to have them done so he is due a check up.

Trouble is soon as you mention this sort of thing to alot of vets with a cocker they start waffling on about rage  :mad2:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> He is due for a clip next week and i wonder if his coat is giving him some grief. He is also due his jabs but i was putting it off because i hadn't decided wether to have them done so he is due a check up.
> 
> Trouble is soon as you mention this sort of thing to alot of vets with a cocker they start waffling on about rage  :mad2:


Yes, especially a golden spaniel! If they do, just take him somewhere for a second opinion. The weather is getting warmer, he could be a bit hot and bothered, you just don't know do you? I would definitely get him checked though.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Was the meet the first time he had been surrounded by alot of dogs all in one go ??
Was it a sudden change in routine for him... his not seeing his normal dog friends on his normal dog walks... but suddenly out numbered by aot of strange dogs

Maybe he just felt totally overwhelmed at the meet,hence why he didnt react at the time ,he was out numbered and nervous and now he feels the need to defend himself from other dogs the moment he starts to feel abit overwhelmed/excited by them 

I wouldn`t know what to suggest, but if it was Sailor, I would always distract and reward him when he knew there was another dog nearby, then let him play, but call him back or get him back to reward him again before any bad behaviour started (even if it is literally a quick 1 second sniff)... eventually he might start seeing other dogs and short bursts of calm play as a source of yummy hotdogs... and instead of staying around other dogs long enough to get overwhelmed/excited, he will come find you for a hotdog after his seen or greeted any other dogs.

( thats assuming Oscar is as mad for hotdogs as Sailor is lol )

With it being a sudden change in his behaviour tho, go to the vets for a check over and advice :thumbup:


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Hope you get it sorted gorgeous boy :thumbup:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

sailor said:


> Was the meet the first time he had been surrounded by alot of dogs all in one go ??
> Was it a sudden change in routine for him... his not seeing his normal dog friends on his normal dog walks... but suddenly out numbered by aot of strange dogs
> 
> Maybe he just felt totally overwhelmed at the meet,hence why he didnt react at the time ,he was out numbered and nervous and now he feels the need to defend himself from other dogs the moment he starts to feel abit overwhelmed/excited by them
> ...


I think you could be right about the meet. It was definately out of his usual routine.

Think i will keep him on lead for a bit just letting him off to play with dogs i know he is ok with and see how he goes.

Not sure how to reintroduce meeting new dogs in a positive way though  He was always fine before, submissive (laying down as they approach to suss them out and show he isnt a threat, then a quick assesment sniff then a play if they were up for it or moving on if they weren't) but this new behaviour is very sudden and explosive and a bit random to call


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Fleur said:


> Zipper at that age was pretty agro at younger male dogs - he disn't care about size, he managed to chase off a 1 yaer old Lab and had the Lab cornered against a wall , even now (at 4) he will often try to hump them I assume he's trying to tell them he's the big man


The assertive type of behaviour of mature males to younger ones sounds worryingly rather different to what's been described about Oscar. Rather than posturing and intimidating, he's greeting but then without warning or apparent reason attacking.

Seems like phoning for Vet check up to rule out health causes, makes sense. You're right to be cautious and try to avoid a repetition.

Most of the forum dog-aggro threads are really about desensitising an under socialised dog re-conditioning them to be more socially confident and less excited, so the advice in those isn't likely going to help. I can only offer sympathy, it is ratber upsetting and very worrying when something like this happens.



RAINYBOW said:


> I think you could be right about the meet. It was definately out of his usual routine.
> ... He was always fine before, submissive (laying down as they approach to suss them out and show he isnt a threat, then a quick assesment sniff then a play if they were up for it or moving on if they weren't) but this new behaviour is very sudden and explosive and a bit random to call


May be increasing confidence is allowing frustrations and stress to erupt with this crude bullying.

The more past behavioural issues you've faced, makes it more likely that you'll be consulting a behavourist now to get the experienced observation and advice first hand, rather than the cause being health issue.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> The assertive type of behaviour of mature males to younger ones sounds worryingly rather different to what's been described about Oscar. Rather than posturing and intimidating, he's greeting but then without warning or apparent reason attacking.
> 
> Seems like phoning for Vet check up to rule out health causes, makes sense. You're right to be cautious and try to avoid a repetition.
> 
> ...


Thansk Rob, not quite ready to run for the behaviourist just yet but i am also not convinced this is a health issue as it's too random in some ways but very specific in others (eg age, size and body language of the other dog)

Definately looks like he is asserting his authority rather than being fearful (which i have seen in him before)

ARGGGHHHHHHhhh just when you think you have it all sorted, he has been fantastic lately :mad2:


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## OllieBob (Nov 28, 2010)

Were the dogs he went for intact males? I have found that neutered dogs have a problem with intact males even when the intact dog is ignoring them. Never have a problem with intact dog meeting intact dog though.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

OllieBob said:


> Were the dogs he went for intact males? I have found that neutered dogs have a problem with intact males even when the intact dog is ignoring them. Never have a problem with intact dog meeting intact dog though.


It's hard to say because the owners don't hang around long enough to ask them (which is fair enough when my grumpy spaniel is hanging off a lead at them )

It's really hard to see if it's "all noise" or if he means business too  Easier to deal with if i just thought he was being "gobby"


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Update on today.

Well the park wasn't too busy this morning and we bumped into a lovely little Shitzhu called Bonnie who Oscar knows really well so i let him off.

He was a bit "deaf" at first but i got the hotdog out and kept him "close" with my commands not letting him get too far ahead etc. When we saw anyone i called him close and if we saw any other dogs i put him back on, didn't let him greet anyone but gave him lots of praise and treats for walking past without a reaction. Made him sit while the kids fed the swans (he can react to them sometimes) but no trouble today. 

We saw a poodle he has seen a few times but isnt very familiar with so i repeated the no meet or greet and kept oscar focussed on me onlead, explained briefly to the guy and carried on, no reaction from oscar :thumbup: so when we saw them again later i asked the chap if he minded me letting Oscar off to see how he was, he said no probs so i let him off, let him do a very quick meet and greet sniff and then called him on, he came no problem so i gave him lots of fuss  and then left him off for a few minutes before putting him back on to head home.

All in all a good walk


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Well that's great!

My dog growled and was tense to a Sib. Husky pup to stop him jumping at him; but held back from more than that and relaxed once the pup got the message. It's my worry that one day the occasional "tense" greeting, or obnoxious herding play could get out of hand and then I'd have same problem, so I am really rooting for you on this one!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Well that's great!
> 
> My dog growled and was tense to a Sib. Husky pup to stop him jumping at him; but held back from more than that and relaxed once the pup got the message. It's my worry that one day the occasional "tense" greeting, or obnoxious herding play could get out of hand and then I'd have same problem, so I am really rooting for you on this one!


Oscar has never really tolerated "rough" or "exhuberant" play very well, he loves the thrill of a chase but isnt keen on getting caught but this behaviour is very different to that in that these dogs pose no "threat" to him and in some cases he is seeking them out to play and then turning on them seemingly with no provocation.

Think i just need to take a couple of steps backwards (again ), remind him this behaviour is not acceptable and if he doesn't play nicely he doesn't get to play at all 

Children are sooooo much easier  

Thanks for taking the interest


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Thought i would "blog" my progress through this issue to A) gain knowledge B) get some perspective C) maybe help others experiencing the same.

So not too bad this week. Keeping Oscar well away from any potential flare up and rewarding him for steady behaviour but letting him meet and greet dogs i think he will be ok with.

He seems fine with older larger dogs (he's not totally brainless then ) 

Walking this evening we met an off lead Rottie. The guy said the Rottie was OK so i thought i would let Oscar say hello which i did, interestingly Oscar didn't growl BUT the Rottie did seem to be uncomfortable with Oscar  the Rottie was rumbling at him a bit (owner dealt with it so no problem) Oscar didn't retaliate in any way but i did wonder if he was giving off some sort of "vibe" this dog wasn't comfy with. Anyway i called Oscar away and treated him for "being good" (whilst saying thanks to the doggy gods that he didn't decide to pick a fight with the biggest Rottie i have seen in a while )

All in all we are doing OK but i haven't let him near any smaller dogs yet.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Sometimes it's just impossible to really understand 'why?'. Dog-dog interactions are complicated things. One thing that it is most probably not is Oscar trying to assert authority- authority over what? He may be a little uncomfortable around certain dogs due to prior experience but you have just not picked up on it (and it can be near impossible for humans to pick up on some dog reactions).

You're doing the right thing with your training programme, and it seems to be working, so keep it up. 

One thing: when you say he goes for other dogs, what exactly happens? Does he snarl, growl or does he bite, full-on? If it's the former, it could just be down to his unsureness.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Glad to hear it hasn't escalated & he's still able to meet other dogs without too many probs.

I'm being brave this weekend & taking Roxy over to the Gogs where we had our meet. I thought it would be nice for Toby to meet some other dogs again (we never meet anyone) & good for Roxy to see other dogs & people - fingers crossed she won't embarrass me too much!!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

OK so an update and sadly it's not fantastic.

He is really not OK with most dogs he doesn't already know now unless they are clearly bigger and more "dominant" than him. If they are bigger and younger he will still have a go at them 

I am not big on the Dominance thing but those he targets do seem weaker or younger than him 

I had him off lead in the park today as it is quiet enough for me to preempt any disasters and i spotted an off lead black cocker (black dogs seem a bigger deal than others to him ) He was in the scrub so i called him in to me and he came, as i went to grab his collar (i had told the other dog owner my dog was "grumpy" to warn her) her spaniel came to say "hello" to us and Oscar flew at it. I did grab him and the dog backed off but it's not great is it 

Spotted another little black dog up ahead later on the walk so put Oscar on and waited for the owner to appear, the dog didn't approach Oscar but Oscar was barking at it so i gave him a firm "leave" and "sit" and made him sit calmly looking at this dog from a distance. The owner seemed suprised when i said there was a problem because Oscars tail was going nine to the dozen  This baffles me also because his body language doesn't suggest he has an issue until the other dog is greeting him then "bang" he can go.

Anyway we graually approached this new dog (who had a mate too ) I chatted to the guy for a bit and praised Oscar and treated for calm behaviour. I think because they were now familiar to him and clearly no threat he probably would have played with them but i didn't want to risk it 

SOooooooooo going forward. I am working hard on Oscars general obedience, recall and focus on ME when we are out. I figure if i can get him ignoring these new dogs then i stand a chance of being able to carry on letting him off lead as he IS under control, it will be the other dog owners problem if their dog comes to us and won't recall (obviously i will alert them that he isn't friendly (god it hurts to type that )

Really hoping and praying this is a phase and linked to the start of the Spring and i can work through it. Any other suggestions gratefully considered 

I think i am going to try and find somewhere where there are alot of passing dogs to do some desentising but its not that easy to find the time as i cant expect the kids to sit on a bench for hours with me


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Has his behaviour toward people changed, or is it just dogs? I still think it would be worth having a vet check him out. I know what you are saying about them all thinking "rage syndrome", but if that were it he would have turned aggressive toward people too, wouldn't he? So you just need to stand your ground with them.

The change has been so sudden, it could well be medical. 

Or....................Big dogs? Black dogs? Are you sure you don't want me to bring mine over to sort him out? :blink:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Has his behaviour toward people changed, or is it just dogs? I still think it would be worth having a vet check him out. I know what you are saying about them all thinking "rage syndrome", but if that were it he would have turned aggressive toward people too, wouldn't he? So you just need to stand your ground with them.
> 
> The change has been so sudden, it could well be medical.
> 
> Or....................Big dogs? Black dogs? Are you sure you don't want me to bring mine over to sort him out? :blink:


I have noticed He is more Woofy at people (men mostly). It's all woof though and most people are very obliging when i tell them that and ask then to stand their ground and give him a fuss so i think that will rssolve itself but with the other dogs its a full blown loon out.

Like i have said he was very submissive with the Rottie we met the other day, he aint daft and choses his fights carefully  I did find it interesting though that despite the owner saying the Rottie was OK it DID have a problem with Oscar so i wonder what vibes he is giving off  I doubt very much he would take your 2 on 

He is due his jabs and annual check so will book him in for next week. He had his clip last week so didn't want to stress him out all in one go as i thought it might send him totally over the edge 

When he went today i was walking with a friend who we walk with sometimes and Oscar is fine with her dog and she was shocked at his behaviour and she has known him from a pup  This behaviour definately stems back to the group meet the more i analize it and he was very uncomfortable/fearful at the beginning of the walk if you remember. I shrugged it off because he seemed to enjoy himself so much afterwards but i think that fear has triggered this behaviour  Just my thoughts though


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I have noticed He is more Woofy at people (men mostly). It's all woof though and most people are very obliging when i tell them that and ask then to stand their ground and give him a fuss so i think that will rssolve itself but with the other dogs its a full blown loon out.
> 
> Like i have said he was very submissive with the Rottie we met the other day, he aint daft and choses his fights carefully  I did find it interesting though that despite the owner saying the Rottie was OK it DID have a problem with Oscar so i wonder what vibes he is giving off  I doubt very much he would take your 2 on
> 
> ...


I hope it wasn't the sight of my two that started him off. I shall be eternally guilty:blink:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Glad to hear it hasn't escalated & he's still able to meet other dogs without too many probs.
> 
> I'm being brave this weekend & taking Roxy over to the Gogs where we had our meet. I thought it would be nice for Toby to meet some other dogs again (we never meet anyone) & good for Roxy to see other dogs & people - fingers crossed she won't embarrass me too much!!!


How did you get on with Roxy by the way ??


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Sometimes it's just impossible to really understand 'why?'. Dog-dog interactions are complicated things. One thing that it is most probably not is Oscar trying to assert authority- authority over what? He may be a little uncomfortable around certain dogs due to prior experience but you have just not picked up on it (and it can be near impossible for humans to pick up on some dog reactions).
> 
> You're doing the right thing with your training programme, and it seems to be working, so keep it up.
> 
> One thing: when you say he goes for other dogs, what exactly happens? Does he snarl, growl or does he bite, full-on? If it's the former, it could just be down to his unsureness.


Sorry realised i hadn't replied to this. It isn't just a growl, that i would be ok with as its just his warning system and would hopefully make another dog back off but this is an all out full on blazer, he hasn't bitten but no idea if that is because of my intervention.



newfiesmum said:


> I hope it wasn't the sight of my two that started him off. I shall be eternally guilty:blink:


Nooooo i just think he found the whole thing overwhelming. He had never met that many new dogs before all in one go since puppy training.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> How did you get on with Roxy by the way ??


LOL, I got cold feet!!!! My OH is still getting over his broken ankle & unfortunately it swelled up again which meant I would've had to have gone on my own ...... I was too much of a coward in the end 

We are planning on trying again next Sunday. I know it will probably be embarrassing but we just have to do it - over & over again probably.

So if you don't want poor Oscar traumatised by some mental GSD then avoid the place next weekend!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, I got cold feet!!!! My OH is still getting over his broken ankle & unfortunately it swelled up again which meant I would've had to have gone on my own ...... I was too much of a coward in the end
> 
> We are planning on trying again next Sunday. I know it will probably be embarrassing but we just have to do it - over & over again probably.
> 
> So if you don't want poor Oscar traumatised by some mental GSD then avoid the place next weekend!!


We are still toiling at the Chalet next weekend so Oscar will at least get a good run on the beach and we can avoid everyone  

Have been having half a wonder if adopting an older steadier dog might help him. I have thought about this before and he is great walking with dogs he knows. I wonder if an oldie to show him the ropes and help his confidence might help, or am i just asking for trouble 

(not even sure OH would allow it)


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> We are still toiling at the Chalet next weekend so Oscar will at least get a good run on the beach and we can avoid everyone
> 
> Have been having half a wonder if adopting an older steadier dog might help him. I have thought about this before and he is great walking with dogs he knows. I wonder if an oldie to show him the ropes and help his confidence might help, or am i just asking for trouble
> 
> (not even sure OH would allow it)


Might do although instead of Toby's calmness rubbing off on Roxy she has just taught him loads of bad habits.

He gets quite protective of her when we are out. If she starts her crazy whining at a strange dog & it barks back at her Toby then joins in .....  I am getting used to the feeling of embarrassment now


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

QUOTE=Cleo38;2310293]Might do although instead of Toby's calmness rubbing off on Roxy she has just taught him loads of bad habits.

He gets quite protective of her when we are out. If she starts her crazy whining at a strange dog & it barks back at her Toby then joins in .....  I am getting used to the feeling of embarrassment now [/QUOTE]

Maybe we need T Shirts

*"We are lovely but our dogs are HOOLIGANS, approach at your own peril !!!!!" *


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> We are still toiling at the Chalet next weekend so Oscar will at least get a good run on the beach and we can avoid everyone
> 
> Have been having half a wonder if adopting an older steadier dog might help him. I have thought about this before and he is great walking with dogs he knows. I wonder if an oldie to show him the ropes and help his confidence might help, or am i just asking for trouble
> 
> (not even sure OH would allow it)


It could work, or you could end up with two reactive dogs. One never knows, really.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> It could work, or you could end up with two reactive dogs. One never knows, really.


Thats my thoughts and i cant risk it at the moment with the childminding. I can handle Oscars tantrums on a walk but couldn't handle 2 plus buggy plus small people 

Will just keep on keeping on and hope for the best


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Monty has problems with other dogs so know how you feel.

I was also told by a trainer that black dogs have a harder time because other dogs find it hard to read their facial expressions. Plus him being curly too, so she told me to keep the face cut short which I do anyhow.

So that could be a reason why Oscar doesn't like black dogs in particular too.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I was told that dogs don't like black dogs because they cannot see their eyes. I think it is old wives' tales, really, as dogs go by smell and body language, don't they?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I was told that dogs don't like black dogs because they cannot see their eyes. I think it is old wives' tales, really, as dogs go by smell and body language, don't they?


No idea, its pretty random, it was black cocker spaniels at the beach and in the park today so i wouldn't have said their was much difference in expression there


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I think it's because Black dogs faces are hard for other dogs to read - the brows, facial movement and eye expressions, etc, are less obvious.

With dogs of light colours or contrasting coat colours or brow markings they can be read more easily.

I do know that Monty also barks at black people. ( which is embarrassing)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I think it's because Black dogs faces are hard for other dogs to read - the brows, facial movement and eye expressions, etc, are less obvious.
> 
> With dogs of light colours or contrasting coat colours or brow markings they can be read more easily.
> 
> I do know that Monty also barks at black people. ( which is embarrassing)


We used to have a dog who hated black people with a vengeance and our next door neighbours had a Nigerian lodger! We had to make sure it was all clear before we took him out the door.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> We used to have a dog who hated black people with a vengeance and our next door neighbours had a Nigerian lodger! We had to make sure it was all clear before we took him out the door.


I'm lucky that we don't see many around here. I usually just have to apologise and move him on swiftly.Milly doesn't seem too bothered though.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I was told that dogs don't like black dogs because they cannot see their eyes. I think it is old wives' tales, really, as dogs go by smell and body language, don't they?


Black Labs are liked by mine, just as well as chocolate/sandy coloured ones, though he first met and played with chocolate Labs. My guy's eyes are in black area with the white flash in middle, and he doesn't seem to disconcert most dogs. In fact just today, a woman who's Lab is usually nervous of other dogs and just crouches down was surprised as he approached mine for a greet and sniff.

I think the best predictor if a sociable stranger dog will be "interesting" is whether as a pup, that breed was played with, assuming no traumatically negative experiences since.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Another pants walk today. 

Could only let him off when i was sure he was OK. He grumbled at a greyhound just for walking past us but i realise that may have been my rection that didnt help.

Met a terrier he knows and he was fine with her, just a meet and greet (no play) then we met a couple of collies he knows so i let him off for a run with them, absolutely no problem until a westie joined the group (new dog unknown to Oscar) everything seemed ok so i didnt interfere then all of a sudden he saw it off 

Really feel like this tonight :cryin: not sure what the F i have done but i must have got something seriously wrong here 

Vet booked and am contacting our old trainer, going to try and take him along to a class (they are outdoors and there will be lots of dogs there) so Alan can take a look at him and assess his behaviour for me as it seems to be getting worse by the day


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Hmmmm, read this and thought of your Oscar Adolescent Dog Training (18 weeks - 2 years) | Dog Star Daily the section on fighting and bite to injury ratios is interesting. Perhaps he's not behaving as you like and it's embaressing, but is he *really* doing damage?

There's all the advice about interrupting play after short intervals, to keep the excitement down to avoid troubles, and it's not too impractical with pups, but how to seperate the young fast matched adults when they don't both have super solid recall or other way to stop the play on command, is easier said than done.


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## xhuskyloverx (May 5, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> *"We are lovely but our dogs are HOOLIGANS, approach at your own peril !!!!!" *


I need one of these t-shirts too!!

I can feel your pain though, bella was always fine with meeting other dogs, until last august when all of a sudden, within a few hours (she had met dogs fine on our morning walk) she was snapping at dogs we met. We were also out tho at a family fun day at the local castle and it was there that it started. So it was busy and there were alot of dogs!

It upset me alot as I had always been proud at the fact that although she's no angel she was great with other dogs. I had to muzzle her for a while as, although shes always on lead due to what she is, other peoples dogs wern't always under control and ran over to her 

I've narrowed it down though and she will greet other dogs fine when shes on her extendable lead or off lead (only 1 secure field near us so it isn't very often ) and on her normal lead but ONLY if the lead is slack. If I have the lead too tight then i think it makes her abit tense and she will growl at the other dog.

Oops sorry for the ramble, hope contacting your old trainer helps and you manage to work something out


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Hmmmm, read this and thought of your Oscar Adolescent Dog Training (18 weeks - 2 years) | Dog Star Daily the section on fighting and bite to injury ratios is interesting. Perhaps he's not behaving as you like and it's embaressing, but is he *really* doing damage?
> 
> There's all the advice about interrupting play after short intervals, to keep the excitement down to avoid troubles, and it's not too impractical with pups, but how to seperate the young fast matched adults when they don't both have super solid recall or other way to stop the play on command, is easier said than done.


Thanks this was really helpful . He is the right age and Oscar has probably had about 10 "outbursts" but hasn't harmed another dog yet but i have intervened every time so hard to know if he would have.

The trouble is he looks like he means business and other people are offended when your dog does it and rightly alarmed because they don't know he isn't actually attacking their dog.

The article is correct in that it seems to be after a short play/meeting that he suddely flies so there is a point under the right circumstances where i can move him on maintaining a positive meeting BUT thats all dependent on the other dog and their recall  if they pursue him then he is likely to kick off.

A muzzle might help put other dog owners more at ease and might make them happier to let him play  BUT it could also make him more fearful of the whole situation ???



xhuskyloverx said:


> I need one of these t-shirts too!!
> 
> I can feel your pain though, bella was always fine with meeting other dogs, until last august when all of a sudden, within a few hours (she had met dogs fine on our morning walk) she was snapping at dogs we met. We were also out tho at a family fun day at the local castle and it was there that it started. So it was busy and there were alot of dogs!
> 
> ...


Maybe we should have a secret society for Hooligan dogs   Cleo can join in too


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Thanks this was really helpful . He is the right age and Oscar has probably had about 10 "outbursts" but hasn't harmed another dog yet but i have intervened every time so hard to know if he would have.
> 
> The trouble is he looks like he means business and other people are offended when your dog does it and rightly alarmed because they don't know he isn't actually attacking their dog.
> 
> ...


LOL, at least we knew Roxy was a nut job when we got her!!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, at least we knew Roxy was a nut job when we got her!!!


As opposed to me who has managed to turn mine into one :cryin:

Did you get a muzzle in the end ??


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> As opposed to me who has managed to turn mine into one :cryin:
> 
> Did you get a muzzle in the end ??


LOL, no, he's obviously just going through a phase - lets hope it's short lived though!

I did get a muzzle, the one that looked like a halti. The behaviorist really liked it & thought it wa much better than the scary ones around. She can still pant, drink & still get treats through it so it's not too restrictive.

I have been taking her in to town to get her used to people with a bit more confidence now. I didn't want to act nervously & then transfer this to her.

Are you thinking of getting a muzzle for Oscar then?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> The trouble is he looks like he means business and other people are offended when your dog does it and rightly alarmed because they don't know he isn't actually attacking their dog.
> 
> The article is correct in that it seems to be after a short play/meeting that he suddely flies so there is a point under the right circumstances where i can move him on maintaining a positive meeting BUT thats all dependent on the other dog and their recall


So good news it doesnt' look like Oscar is really dangerous, just acting yobbish.

It is very difficult, I've had a "cute" puppy who needs manners lessons, does things like jump up and paw my dogs muzzle, and I have to point out what's happened and warn the owners that a fierce sounding growl is likely coming. Doggy discipline, doesn't really look pretty and in the big v small dog situation, the larger ends up looking aggressive, even if the real problem was the small dog not heeding the dog communication.

The bottom line is, as the dogs act more adult, they tend not to play as nicely any more, and the stakes are unfortunately higher.

As it's the smaller dogs that Oscar "goes for", at least he can likely run back to you quicker than the play mate. So may be you can limit the time, have high value treats or game, to give him only short exposure to smaller dogs; try to avoid incidents through things getting out of hand.

Will be interesting to know what the Pro behavourists think on muzzling. To me Oscar sounds like Dunbar's somewhat insecure middle ranking dog, and muzzling has the disadvantage that people illogically avoid him ("must be aggressive") rather than feel he's safer for their dogs to be around.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, no, he's obviously just going through a phase - lets hope it's short lived though!
> 
> I did get a muzzle, the one that looked like a halti. The behaviorist really liked it & thought it wa much better than the scary ones around. She can still pant, drink & still get treats through it so it's not too restrictive.
> 
> ...


Yes hun, just because i am worried about transferred fear from me and me "avoiding" certain dogs/situations with him reinforcing to him that he is right to be fearful  A muzzle would mean i could "try" him with situations and i think in the main he would be ok so i could reinforce the positives whereas at the moment i am simply avoiding the issue 



RobD-BCactive said:


> So good news it doesnt' look like Oscar is really dangerous, just acting yobbish.
> 
> It is very difficult, I've had a "cute" puppy who needs manners lessons, does things like jump up and paw my dogs muzzle, and I have to point out what's happened and warn the owners that a fierce sounding growl is likely coming. Doggy discipline, doesn't really look pretty and in the big v small dog situation, the larger ends up looking aggressive, even if the real problem was the small dog not heeding the dog communication.
> 
> ...


I do feel Oscar isn't giving the dogs a "fair warning" though, it seems very explosive when he goes. He has always hated the whole over exhuberant puppy play thing so i am always aware that puppies/adolescents off lead can be an issue with him but tbh they need a telling off to teach them manners unfortunately i think Oscars "telling off" is currently OTT 

Oscar is definately an underconfident/insecure dog in general i think BUT when he is on top form he is very sociable and has excellent doggy manners as some on here will testify to 

The "headcollar/muzzle" could be an option as it does just look like a halter so may not put people off too much


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

First off sorry that you and Oscar are going through all this - very disconcerting for both ends of the leash.

All distance increasing signaling is a behavioural manifestation of fear. This means that pretty much all agression (there are some exceptions) are fear based.

A dog that becomes leash reactive is usually thought of as fine prior until one day, as you say BAM!
imagine a scale of fear responses: 1 being comfortable and 100 being the delivery of a Level 3 bite

Different dogs move through the scale at different rates, some never escalate past a certain number while some are quick to escalate.

If we say that about 60 is growling we can see that the dog has come quite a way, possibly without us even noticing.

The problem comes because the more of these uncomfortable eperiences a dog has in a certain situation the more they come to expect them (this is through classical conditioning). So distance increasing signaling escalates faster and begins to be seen in its most obvious form earlier and earlier on in the predictive sequence.

So a dog that didn't growl when another dog approaches may slowly start to show this escalation just upon approaching other dogs.

Ranking is not relevant amongst dogs that have only just met. A dog is not mid-ranking his rank changes depending on who they are with - it is relative and about relationships.

If you have a dog aggressing toward dogs that it has casual relationships with or may never have met before ranking is not relevant.

Lots of this could well be linked with adolescence but the reason we see an escalation of this behaviour at this stage is because the dog is preparing for independence so to be safe distance increasing stuff becomes a default.
It is during adolescence that holes in socialisation will be seen. And as such it is soooooooo vital that socialisation intensively continues throughout. 

Its also sooo important that bad experiences be minimised as these are likely to cause this issue to worsen.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

tripod said:


> First off sorry that you and Oscar are going through all this - very disconcerting for both ends of the leash.
> 
> All distance increasing signaling is a behavioural manifestation of fear. This means that pretty much all agression (there are some exceptions) are fear based.
> 
> ...


I do think he has had very good socialisation from puppyhood so its a real shame this is manifesting.

I understand bad experience needs minimising but its how to strike the balance between simply avoiding new dogs altogether (not really solving just avoiding the issue) and getting him "back on the horse" (so to speak) without putting him or other dogs at risk 

I kind of understand where this behaviour is coming from now (i think) i just need to know how to deal with it in the best way really.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Even though puppies had great socialisation it doesn't necessarily mean that this carries on. I don't doubt that you have done a wonderful job with Oscar 
But socialsiation is tough and I have found that Cockers are one of those types that I am seeing being harder and harder to socialise teach to cope in various scenarios - as a collegue of mine, who is a big Cocker fan, says "they are so misunderstood". This is exactly the same thing I say about my speciality, bull breeds 

Eitherway, we have to train the dog we have in front of us, not the dog we thought we had, or the dog we wish we had. What I'm saying is that whats done is done and we can't change it, only try to deal with the behaviour we see.

If you get that this is fear based the first thing we need to do is to determine threshold.
This is the point at which its too much for him and fear manifests. We must recognise the early manifestation of this, which can be exceptionally subtle such as slight posture stiffening, pupil dilation, whisker movement, slight lip lick or even small tongue flick/movement.
Once we have that established we can begin to work at such a distance or with the stimulus dog at such a strength that Oscar can cope, learn and respond to things other than the other dog.

Unfortunatley while the development of fear generalises amazingly well the modification of fear does not so various different versions of the stimulus needs to be worked through.

Because of this, its not only important to gradually work on buildign his comfort levels but also giving him alternative behaviours such as focusing on you, learning to retreat from a greeting he doesn't like etc.

Are there any dogs that he can greet and interact with, perhaps off leash, and dogs that you know?

It would be great if he could have that opportunityso that he can continue to interact, develop dog-dog skills and stooge dogs that you can rope into your program and use to work on his focus around other dogs.

Check out BAT - this along with some classical conditioning, I have found to be the most effective technique for helping with reactivity.
Also have a look at the books Click to Calm and Control Unleashed (specifically the game Look At That).

Keeping your dog out of situations that are likely to bring a reaction is not avoiding the issue. Before I start working with reactive dogs I ask that they have at least one (but ideally two) weeks of no incidents. This is vital to kind of reset the dog.
During that time working on self control and focus work is also essential.

After that its only introducing the dog to a stimulus dog, below threshold in controlled training situations.

Here are a couple of handouts that may be helpful to you:
http://petcentral.yolasite.com/resources/Leash Reactivity.doc
http://petcentral.yolasite.com/resources/Fears in Dogs.doc


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

tripod said:


> Even though puppies had great socialisation it doesn't necessarily mean that this carries on. I don't doubt that you have done a wonderful job with Oscar
> But socialsiation is tough and I have found that Cockers are one of those types that I am seeing being harder and harder to socialise teach to cope in various scenarios - as a collegue of mine, who is a big Cocker fan, says "they are so misunderstood". This is exactly the same thing I say about my speciality, bull breeds
> 
> Eitherway, we have to train the dog we have in front of us, not the dog we thought we had, or the dog we wish we had. What I'm saying is that whats done is done and we can't change it, only try to deal with the behaviour we see.
> ...


Will have a read tomorrow when my brain is less scrambled.

Just to clarify he is absolutely fine with dogs he knows, that ranges from ones he walks with regularly to ones he has met every now and then but not necessarily played with, so far this behaviour doesn't seem to manifest with unknown dogs larger and older than him that maybe carry a certain "presence" about then (he aint that daft )

With dogs that he does interact with he is playful, happy and very well mannered. Take the most recent incident, 2 collies he knows = lovely off lead play no issue at all, 3rd unknown westie enters the equation no immediate reaction, lots of normal meet and greet doggy sniffing from all 4 then suddenly BAM off he flew  Now as i learn i SHOULD have called him over when the westie arrived made him sit by me and treated him whilst the others interacted maybe  .


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Will have a read tomorrow when my brain is less scrambled.
> 
> Just to clarify he is absolutely fine with dogs he knows, that ranges from ones he walks with regularly to ones he has met every now and then but not necessarily played with, so far this behaviour doesn't seem to manifest with unknown dogs larger and older than him that maybe carry a certain "presence" about then (he aint that daft )
> 
> With dogs that he does interact with he is playful, happy and very well mannered. Take the most recent incident, 2 collies he knows = lovely off lead play no issue at all, 3rd unknown westie enters the equation no immediate reaction, lots of normal meet and greet doggy sniffing from all 4 then suddenly BAM off he flew  Now as i learn i SHOULD have called him over when the westie arrived made him sit by me and treated him whilst the others interacted maybe  .


Super to know that he is good with familiar dogs. Use them 

We always start with the easiest scenario for the dog, so practice having them approach etc. as this will be easy as he is familiar with and comfortable with them off leash.

Also start working on his arousal levels while he interacts with these dogs. In controlled situations teach him to focus on you to be rewarded with access to play with his pals.
Allow him to play/interact for half a minute, recall him, practice three behaviours and reward him with allowing him to return to his pals.

This will help to teach him some focus and retreating behaviorus around other dogs plus will keep his arousal levels low.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

tripod said:


> Super to know that he is good with familiar dogs. Use them
> 
> We always start with the easiest scenario for the dog, so practice having them approach etc. as this will be easy as he is familiar with and comfortable with them off leash.
> 
> ...


Biggest issue i have at the moment is that because he looks so bloody adorable and spaniely people don't take me seriously when i say he isn't friendly at present and dont always recall their dogs from him when he is onlead in fact people actively approach to say a friendly "hello" and i have to try and quickly explain that i am having problems so he isnt allowed to meet and greet til his manners improve


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I have had clients with seriously reactive dogs have their dogs wear 'assistance dog in training' vests


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

tripod said:


> I have had clients with seriously reactive dogs have their dogs wear 'assistance dog in training' vests


I did wonder about that


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I did wonder about that


Vest for Oscar & the t-shirt for you then!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Vest for Oscar & the t-shirt for you then!


OMG people are going to think i am NUTS  (like they don't already !!)

Had to laugh at the Estate Agent yesterday who looked genuinely worried when i said that i had put the dog outside because he wouldn't have liked him being in the house


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> OMG people are going to think i am NUTS  (like they don't already !!)
> 
> Had to laugh at the Estate Agent yesterday who looked genuinely worried when i said that i had put the dog outside because he wouldn't have liked him being in the house


LOL, the man from the electricity company came round to read the meter on Monday, my OH said he looked terrifed when he saw Roxy barking at him! Once she knows that people are 'allowed' in though she changes completely - she was rolling over for a fuss like a big, overgrown puppy within seconds.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

tripod said:


> Ranking is not relevant amongst dogs that have only just met. A dog is not mid-ranking his rank changes depending on who they are with - it is relative and about relationships.
> 
> If you have a dog aggressing toward dogs that it has casual relationships with or may never have met before ranking is not relevant


Actually it helps you spot the dogs that need a close watch and care around. I agree there's no significant ranking between stranger dog, and the insecure dog that is the one which is likely to act aggressive without much provocation. But that insecure dog, can be part of a group who do have an established ranking; and I think that is what Dunbar is meaning by the "categorisation", these dogs are concerned they'll lose access to resources, treats, attention or whatever.

As you pointed out, the real point is though that the dog is not confident and relaxed in the social situation, so something apparently small that ought not be significant, can suddenly put it above some threshold.

On Oscar, isn't it odd that he appears to be happy to greet or play for a short while, and then goes straight to an "attack" without the distancing you mentioned?

Rainybow didn't say he started by growling, and progressing much more rapidly (fitting the classical conditioning). She said he "relapsed" acting like he did before he was neutered, she didn't think he was displaying signs of fear, it's not when he's with the bigger dogs, but the smaller ones he can bully he's "going for" and upsetting their owners. It was after an apparently enjoyable & successful social meet, that this worrying behaviour began.

Didn't we have a thread featuring Oscar, discussing spats at Cafe table, where other owners were being indulgent? I remember saying, I was just avoiding such situations as it seemed to be a common flash point.

I hope I'm not coming over as "awkward", I'm just curious how it fits in with the more common pattern we see most days, passing an onleash fearful dog growling or barking from a distance, possibly lunging around and being restrained or sat by the owner.



tripod said:


> Even though puppies had great socialisation it doesn't necessarily mean that this carries on. I don't doubt that you have done a wonderful job with Oscar
> But socialsiation is tough and I have found that Cockers are one of those types that I am seeing being harder and harder to socialise teach to cope in various scenarios


That was one of the main thrusts of the "Adolescent" stage, needing to keep regular socialising. The piece explained how quickly, due to some incident, wariness then isolates the adolescent dog so that the easy happy-go-lucky puppy socialisation skills can be lost.

There's a bronzey-yellow Spaniel I come across that takes a somewhat alarmed interest in my dog, and always gets called back and leashed when we're around. I rather assume, he'll cause a minor spat, if he makes it over unobserved and unsupervised.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Actually it helps you spot the dogs that need a close watch and care around. I agree there's no significant ranking between stranger dog, and the insecure dog that is the one which is likely to act aggressive without much provocation. But that insecure dog, can be part of a group who do have an established ranking; and I think that is what Dunbar is meaning by the "categorisation", these dogs are concerned they'll lose access to resources, treats, attention or whatever.
> 
> As you pointed out, the real point is though that the dog is not confident and relaxed in the social situation, so something apparently small that ought not be significant, can suddenly put it above some threshold.
> 
> ...


Thats interesting points i hadn't really thought about, this behaviour isn't so sudden actually now i think about it. The Cafe thing DID become an issue with Oscar as he did replicate the behaviour of the other dog and began "guarding" the cafe from other dogs, thats actually when this aggresive stance from him began. He was approached at the table by a black cockerpoo, all of Oscars body language was friendly so the owner came over with the dog to say hello but all of a sudden and with no warning Oscar went for the dog. I remember being really shocked by it. I don't allow unknown dogs to approach him now in this situation. It was the SAME black cockerpoo that was involved in one of the early incidents when this behaviour manifested around the park.

Just to add there is little to no warning. With this Cockerpoo we passed them later in the walk (oscar now onlead) I made him sit and focus as she walked passed (attempting to create a positive situation i could reward him for) and as the dog came level with us he launched himself at it there was no preamble to that, no low growl, curled lip, nowt.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

A more positive walk this evening. Managed to allow him some off lead and call him in when necessary (i know some wont agree with that but whilst his recall is still good and he hasnt physically injured another dog i refuse to deny him some well planned off lead time as he spends most of it in the scrub oblivious to the outside world anyway and i dont want to add a bored frustrated dog into the mix)

Anyway on the way back we met 2 offlead dogs, he was on, i called ahead to say he wasnt friendly so could they call in their dogs, they tried but one didnt and came to say hello and the owner seemed ok so i allowed the lead to go slack whilst the owner came to collect his dog, really nice meet and greet (giving Oscar positive encouragement throughout) and then we walked passed the other dog who was now onlead so again lots of positive encouragement and a treat for that 

People do look at me like i am mental though when i tell them he isnt friendly at the moment so can they keep their dog away  I think they just think, its a spaniel how much harm can it do until he throws a wobbly and they are genuinely suprised  I suppose people dont realise you might actually be trying to do something about it so an incident can be quite a setback.

Blimmin lovely evening for a walk though , just wish i could get back to it being a bit more relaxed


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Well done. May be you need to say he's been "unpredictable" rather than unfriendly. I'm sure if you approached me, I'd find it bizarre if your dog's body language is sociable, then you said "unfriendly", I'd be awfully curious.

Tonight, was almost my dog's lucky night; a bitch in heat. One of the local "packs" was together, an Akita-BC cross had growled at mine last time they met few weeks back when passing on a path, despite being friendly before. Curious I took him up in wider space to see, if the big guy was going to permantenly object to my dog. No problem, all friendly, I arrived to hear something about "them all being done so no problem" and the bitch got brought back, before I could get a word in :tongue_smilie:

I was saddened later on, by a 20 week old JRT pup who was showing signs of being overwhelmed by friendly dogs, and also strange ppl. I was told "she's fine at home", well yes of course, she's spent plenty of time cooped up in there, hasn't she, I thought! Nice weather has brought a number of ppl out with pups, who normally stay indoors and it's such a shame, when you know what these dogs (and owners!) have missed out on.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> *Actually it helps you spot the dogs that need a close watch and care around*. I agree there's no significant ranking between stranger dog, and the insecure dog that is the one which is likely to act aggressive without much provocation. But that insecure dog, can be part of a group who do have an established ranking; and I think that is what Dunbar is meaning by the "categorisation", these dogs are concerned they'll lose access to resources, treats, attention or whatever.
> 
> As you pointed out, the real point is though that the dog is not confident and relaxed in the social situation, so something apparently small that ought not be significant, can suddenly put it above some threshold.
> 
> ...


<snipping and bold added>

What helps you spot these dogs? I don't understand.

To ascertain who is who re ranking takes amazing skill plus it changes constantly as such this is not really a useful way of monitoring a group for 'trouble'.

Body language and play skills/play style are much more useful.

Lots of dogs don't escalate through each stage of aggression, some do in some situations and not in others.

That's why its soooo important to recognise your individual dogs signaling in different scenarios and to respond appropriately to them.

Susceptability to signs of malsocialisation is set in puppy hood, but as said socialisaiton must continue and be intensively stepped up again during the teenage stage.
In some types this teenage stage can be just as critical as puppy's earlier stages.
But if you haven't the early stuff done its really tough. A really really well socialised puppy can take some upset in adolescence and have bouce-back-ability.

Getting bogged down in socialisation periods is less helpful - socialisation must be intense throughout developmental and then continue throughout adulthood.

These cases are very very rarely 'sudden' or unexpected. Discomfort signaling is so subtle that is generally missed. It takes such a lot of pushing to get dogs reacting, especially those who have a decent socialisation history.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Better News 

We went to our beach chalet this weekend and in the opposite chalet is a gorgeous Goldie. She is about 4 yrs old, playful but very laid back and a delight really.

Well Oscar had met her last year and being a bigger female i felt OK to let him off with her for a play.

They had a great romp and i had time to really analize Oscars current play patterns.

He does escalate much more quickly than he used to and does alot of "boxing" play trying to get up across her shoulders/back of neck, muzzle curled back. As the play went on there were times when he did seem to be getting frustrated and a bit much and i think these are probably the times that have turned grumpy in the passed BUT this Goldie was excellent and very carefully very expertly brought him back down again, basically by lying down and ignoring him until he calmed down then instigating play again, at these points i was able to call him in for a treat and a fuss then send him off to play again 

Later on the beach i was careful about who i let him play with so eg there was a springer, cocker and black lab playing which i felt could have been too much and other cockers can be a flash point for him so i put him on then but later there was 2 older black labs that i let him off to say hello to which was really brief and calm 

Progress Made  

The beach is good because there is loads of space to work with and all the dogs are new to Oscar so we can do lots of calm passing at a distance and interact if we want to


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

tripod said:


> What helps you spot these dogs? I don't understand.
> 
> To ascertain who is who re ranking takes amazing skill plus it changes constantly as such this is not really a useful way of monitoring a group for 'trouble'.
> 
> Body language and play skills/play style are much more useful


Noone needs a ranking table, it's not a league table. Take the argument to Dr Dunbar please, because I don't think anyone has a problem in practice, seeing exactly what is meant.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Noone needs a ranking table, it's not a league table. Take the argument to Dr Dunbar please, because I don't think anyone has a problem in practice, seeing exactly what is meant.


I just wanted an explanation as to what you meant - I don't understand, I am not arguing, I don't understand what you are saying


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Well the original source was linked to, it was a quote, but receiving disproportionate attention.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> He does escalate much more quickly than he used to and does alot of "boxing" play trying to get up across her shoulders/back of neck, muzzle curled back. As the play went on there were times when he did seem to be getting frustrated and a bit much and i think these are probably the times that have turned grumpy in the passed BUT this Goldie was excellent and very carefully very expertly brought him back down again, basically by lying down and ignoring him until he calmed down then instigating play again, at these points i was able to call him in for a treat and a fuss then send him off to play again


That's brilliant, my dog's best pal is a mainly Golden with 1/4 Collie, and he ignores any over-excited herding stuff so it eases the situation to. He tends to jump into the deepest muddiest water he can find, which slows the action down considerably :blink:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I am no expert but i am already getting kind of a "sense" for who he will be ok with and who he might not.

That is based on age, size, bouncability and to a degree body language (his and theirs) also where we are.

I am pretty clued up on reading Oscars body language because i had to learn his early discomfort warnings when he was guarding.

His body language has definately changed in terms of meeting dogs when we are out, before he would approach cautiously, lay down a distance away and then approach cautiously, low waggy tail, then once he ascertained friend or foe he would instigate or reciprocate play.

Now he goes absolutely stiff, super alert, hard stare then approaches in this manner quite quickly, much more confident in some ways but less well mannered IMO. He does more leaping and barking in play than he used to. before it was normally a quick game of chase me then a lie down but now as i said there is much more "boxing" and trying to get "above" the other dog by draping across the back of the next then lots of vocal barking (playful not aggressive if he likes the dog)

If he has a go at a dog there is not always any play involved it can happen at the sniffing stage so i dont think it is simply over arousal.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Now he goes absolutely stiff, super alert, hard stare then approaches in this manner quite quickly, much more confident in some ways but less well mannered IMO


When I see that, I get ready in case I need to intervene ... I see that as wariness, trying to seem bigger, it's not relaxed and confident. Rather than trying appeasing gestures to placate, it seems to me to be putting it on to deter.

One thing with dogs on lead, it's usually harder to read your own dog then, than it is the other people's, just because you only see part of them.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Hmmmm, read this and thought of your Oscar Adolescent Dog Training (18 weeks - 2 years) | Dog Star Daily the section on fighting and bite to injury ratios is interesting. Perhaps he's not behaving as you like and it's embaressing, but is he *really* doing damage?
> 
> There's all the advice about interrupting play after short intervals, to keep the excitement down to avoid troubles, and it's not too impractical with pups, but how to seperate the young fast matched adults when they don't both have super solid recall or other way to stop the play on command, is easier said than done.


Thank you for that article, it has given me a lot of hope. I only read the parts that refer to male dog fighting (is there any bit about females?) but hope that applies to females too. Although Mia is still in the (just) less than ten fights bracket she has only ever got hold of a scruff although she has snapped at ears without contact. From the article, as she has never gone for any other part of the body I can be reassured a little. The vet thing is a little worrying though. Despite Mia never breaking the skin, a couple of the other owners have taken their dogs to the vet and there has been one or two evident pressure marks from canines and the vets say there is bruising (although you would expect that if there was contact I suppose) and we have paid these bills. Does that mean it is more serious or does it mean that those owners are just more careful. I should add that Mia has always been on a lead and the other dogs were off lead when these incidents have happened. Maybe we shouldn't have paid the bills as the other owners dogs didn't recall and pushed the point with Mia by not going away while I am trying to keep her sitting and distracted with food, but it is just so embarrassing and I just want to stop them screaming at me.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Emmastace said:


> Does that mean it is more serious or does it mean that those owners are just more careful. I should add that Mia has always been on a lead and the other dogs were off lead when these incidents have happened. Maybe we shouldn't have paid the bills as the other owners dogs didn't recall and pushed the point with Mia by not going away while I am trying to keep her sitting and distracted with food, but it is just so embarrassing and I just want to stop them screaming at me.


Oh boy!! When doing that I would politely call out and ask them, before their dog got too close. May be others would disagree, but in that situation I would want them paying *my bills*! Certainly in my local park, it's the owner with the dog that ignored recall that is apologising, as the rules say "dogs on leash", well behaved dogs are tolerated off leash but the onus is on the owner to maintain control.

I was really annoyed at the unhelpful attitude of some, you take dog off path to side, warn them politely, turn it round, sit it; and they can't even be bothered to keep theirs on the path. That's why I came to conclusion, there was no subsitute for open space.

I suspect if you carried a walking stick, they'd take more notice of you and heed a polite request more promptly, you can steer the oncoming dog to the side by using it to point with a wave. I doubt those dogs would have seen the vet, if they hadn't thought you'ld be so nice and pay.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> When I see that, I get ready in case I need to intervene ... I see that as wariness, trying to seem bigger, it's not relaxed and confident. Rather than trying appeasing gestures to placate, it seems to me to be putting it on to deter.
> 
> One thing with dogs on lead, it's usually harder to read your own dog then, than it is the other people's, just because you only see part of them.


I agree, i didn't necessarily mean "confident" in a good way  Like i said definately less well mannered, a kind of "don't mess" stance.



RobD-BCactive said:


> Oh boy!! When doing that I would politely call out and ask them, before their dog got too close. May be others would disagree, but in that situation I would want them paying *my bills*! Certainly in my local park, it's the owner with the dog that ignored recall that is apologising, as the rules say "dogs on leash", well behaved dogs are tolerated off leash but the onus is on the owner to maintain control.
> 
> I was really annoyed at the unhelpful attitude of some, you take dog off path to side, warn them politely, turn it round, sit it; and they can't even be bothered to keep theirs on the path. That's why I came to conclusion, there was no subsitute for open space.
> 
> I suspect if you carried a walking stick, they'd take more notice of you and heed a polite request more promptly, you can steer the oncoming dog to the side by using it to point with a wave. I doubt those dogs would have seen the vet, if they hadn't thought you'ld be so nice and pay.


I agree again, i am quite vocal now about warning other dog owners and if they cant or don't recall their dogs when mine is sitting at my feet onlead then thats their problem IMO. I will place myself between Oscar and their dog and gesture them away if i have to. On the beach there was a feisty JRT running about having a lovely time and he came to investigate Oscar. Oscar was nose down in a stinky scent and this dog would have just appeared from nowhere above Oscars head because of the levels at the beach, i felt this would have been an issue for Oscar so i sent the JRT off, when the owner caught up i had put Oscar back on and i explained he wasn't particularly fond of smaller dogs and they seemed OK with that, you are protecting both dogs at the end of the day.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Yes! I've taught mine to "Look" if a dog is going to surprise him, not because I expect trouble, but so he can weigh up the situation himself, rather than have them coming from "nowhwere". It just seemed sensible, and doing so helps re-direct attention & having him used to breaking focus.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I agree, i didn't necessarily mean "confident" in a good way  Like i said definately less well mannered, a kind of "don't mess" stance.
> 
> I agree again, i am quite vocal now about warning other dog owners and if they cant or don't recall their dogs when mine is sitting at my feet onlead then thats their problem IMO. I will place myself between Oscar and their dog and gesture them away if i have to. On the beach there was a feisty JRT running about having a lovely time and he came to investigate Oscar. Oscar was nose down in a stinky scent and this dog would have just appeared from nowhere above Oscars head because of the levels at the beach, i felt this would have been an issue for Oscar so i sent the JRT off, when the owner caught up i had put Oscar back on and i explained he wasn't particularly fond of smaller dogs and they seemed OK with that, you are protecting both dogs at the end of the day.


I do call out, usually something along the lines of 'Can you call your dog back because I am rehabilitating a rescue and she hasn't learnt doggy signals yet', 
I just seem to come across too many other dogs that haven't learnt signals yet either, or recall for that matter. 95% of the time it is fine, but I never know when the 5% will be. I also know that I am struggling with my own anxiety over it all and that doesn't help. Still, Social Walking classes start this saturday so at least a professional will be able to see what is going on when Mia meets other dogs and hopefully we can make more improvements from there.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> I do call out, usually something along the lines of 'Can you call your dog back because I am rehabilitating a rescue and she hasn't learnt doggy signals yet',
> I just seem to come across too many other dogs that haven't learnt signals yet either, or recall for that matter. 95% of the time it is fine, but I never know when the 5% will be. I also know that I am struggling with my own anxiety over it all and that doesn't help. Still, Social Walking classes start this saturday so at least a professional will be able to see what is going on when Mia meets other dogs and hopefully we can make more improvements from there.


Sounds like you are doing a great job  I understand about anxiety, it's really hard not to be anxious when a dog approaches that you know could set them off. If you are warning other dog owners though they have to take responsibility for the welfare of their dog, it's so difficult though because when Oscar was little i would have him off lead knowing he wouldn't always recall but i suppose i weighed things up. I wouldnt have got upset at an owner who had a dog onlead though when mine was off. Its my responsibility to keep my dog safe


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Sounds like you are doing a great job  I understand about anxiety, it's really hard not to be anxious when a dog approaches that you know could set them off. If you are warning other dog owners though they have to take responsibility for the welfare of their dog, it's so difficult though because when Oscar was little i would have him off lead knowing he wouldn't always recall but i suppose i weighed things up. I wouldnt have got upset at an owner who had a dog onlead though when mine was off. Its my responsibility to keep my dog safe


But then you are one of the good guys...a responsible owner. The problem is with all the ones that aren't :


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> But then you are one of the good guys...a responsible owner. The problem is with all the ones that aren't :


I know, its hard  Like i have said on this the trouble with Oscar is he looks so damned cute that i am sure people think i am bonkers when i call out, until he flies at their dog then they look really shocked, and it's kind of well... DUH i did tell you


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I know, its hard  Like i have said on this the trouble with Oscar is he looks so damned cute that i am sure people think i am bonkers when i call out, until he flies at their dog then they look really shocked, and it's kind of well... DUH i did tell you


We just had a couple of people giving us 'the look' on Sunday when Roxy was kicking off. she was nowhere near off lead dogs, had no chance of approaching them or causing an damage (headcollar on with lead & harness with lead - extra control) - she was just being loud.

I think we have the opposite in that Roxy being a GSD people just see a big, scary dog who is out of control rather than a young dog who is just OTT excited.

It was nice that we had Toby with us as he was on his best behaviour & proved that we aren't completely incompetent owners!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I wonder if you can get a RESCUE DOG IN REHAB vest. I think people would be more accepting if they new you were trying to rehabilitate her xx


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I wonder if you can get a RESCUE DOG IN REHAB vest. I think people would be more accepting if they new you were trying to rehabilitate her xx


Probably a good idea - I know it happens all the time, my sister used to get with my nephew who was quite hard work when he was younger. I think my OH was worried that I was going to kick off as well as Roxy & have two crazy b*tches out with him!l


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

I explained ppl that as part of my request to keep their dog away, including the word please...

I think some ppl have the idea, if you have a dog with issues you should find some other place to be with it. I've seen such sentiment on the forum to.

Others were great and really sympathetic and giving up some time to help, unfortunately that would tend to be busted up by approaching unruly dogs, so I just decided to walk in a larger area, we're lucky to have available.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> I explained ppl that as part of my request to keep their dog away, including the word please...
> 
> I think some ppl have the idea, if you have a dog with issues you should find some other place to be with it. I've seen such sentiment on the forum to.
> 
> Others were great and really sympathetic and giving up some time to help, unfortunately that would tend to be busted up by approaching unruly dogs, so I just decided to walk in a larger area, we're lucky to have available.


Its very dependant on WHEN i walk here. At the weekends i have pretty much stopped letting him off because our Country Park has suddenly got stupidly busy, lots of kids/fairweather dog walkers etc so confrontation (even with a perfectly well controlled and behaved dog) is getting harder to avoid but the same place during the week is generally pretty quiet and most walkers are experienced tolerant dog owners.

I am finding the beach is the best place to practice this sort of thing and we have fairly regular access to the beach so its not too bad.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Well the original source was linked to, it was a quote, but receiving disproportionate attention.


The bit I had bolded was not in quote tags or " "

It doesn't matter I don't really need to know  To address another point, I have discussed this stuff with Dr D on a number of occassions but it was your post I had a query about


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I wonder if you can get a RESCUE DOG IN REHAB vest. I think people would be more accepting if they new you were trying to rehabilitate her xx


http://www.bonniedogs.co.uk/dog-collars-leads-c21/reflective-safety-dog-wear-s56

Saw this a while back; you can design a vest yourself.

ETA; can only get the link to go to the login page...but you can design your own reflective vest on the site.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

tripod said:


> The bit I had bolded was not in quote tags or " "
> 
> It doesn't matter I don't really need to know  To address another point, I have discussed this stuff with Dr D on a number of occassions but it was your post I had a query about


The back & forth discussion with Rainybow on Adolescent issue re-started from this post http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/152536-hooligan-oscar-help-5.html#post2315359



RobD-BCactive said:


> To me Oscar sounds like Dunbar's somewhat insecure middle ranking dog


This is bit I think you're inquiring about, but was relating to what we had both read in the thread context, which I naturally assume due to timing etc; you had seen.

I tried to answer your question, but basically going to the original source context seems better. It very much was not a major point in the discussion, or seen as important. I don't want to argue about ranking or dominance terminology and all that 

What was much more important to me, was the remembered details of guarding spats around cafe tables last summer.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

He is still a menace around the cafe table. He absolutely flew at a bichon this morning because she was too close to the table and she wasn't that close (thankfully because tbh i don't let any strange dogs come near him at the tables anymore)

We were sat at the different tables for the first time in ages because its so sunny and i think the main problem with these tables in particular is there are always tasty scraps underneath them so they have become a "high value" area  With this behaviour at the moment i feel prevention is the only way by being extra vigilant whilst we tackle the other stuff but i can't help thinking it is all linked. 

Still doing as many meet and greets with familiar dogs as we can and avoiding any hazardous new dogs at the moment. Onwards and Upwards.

Thanks to those who have supported this thread though, even with differing view points it is all really helpful at gaining perspective and looking at all avenues


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Still doing as many meet and greets with familiar dogs as we can and avoiding any hazardous new dogs at the moment. Onwards and Upwards


Good luck with the rampaging puppies! I had an alarming guarding incident when one wanted my dog's tennis ball and pestered him.

I posted in lfl's thread on dog & resources thread. It is interesting what you find, because there's always the potential for spats, or an actual distancing fight to occur and food, toys or even closeness and attention all seem like common triggers.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Good luck with the rampaging puppies! I had an alarming guarding incident when one wanted my dog's tennis ball and pestered him.
> 
> I posted in lfl's thread on dog & resources thread. It is interesting what you find, because there's always the potential for spats, or an actual distancing fight to occur and food, toys or even closeness and attention all seem like common triggers.


Puppies are my worst nightmare to be honest as i know how much damage a bad incident can do to a new pup and you know if they are offlead they are A) unlikely to recall and B) unlikely to have learnt the "rules" yet 

Was out in Mundesley with Oscar on Saturday just walking down the quiet lane behind out chalets and suddenly confronted with a scrap of a girl (and i mean about 6 or 7 yrs old) walking what looked like a large 3 or 4 month old GSD puppy ON HER OWN !!!!! 

I got Oscar in a sit and shouted ahead to her that my dog wasn't very friendly so to try and not let her puppy say hello. Well she just about managed to hang onto this beautiful bouncy GSD who was hell bent on being sociable with Oscar but i positioned myself between them and walked on soon as i could. Can you imagine if that had kicked off :


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Oh those Spaniels!!!

Yesterday, I had one have a minor spat with Freddie. It was off leash, with Freddie sniffing about the line of trees, behind the Spaniel and ahead of our group of sociable dogs (included a KCC Spaniel), which was now parting ways with owners.

All looked good, nice indirect approach to greet and calming signals. When both relaxed and started sniffing about though, the Spaniel did something odd, returning and reinitiating the greeting ritual. This happened about 3 times, and then suddenly with apparently no warning, he was in guard mode, squaring up to Freddie, who turned back square and stood his ground. A spat, what Andy Gray (formerly of Sky Sports) would describe as "Handbags at Dawn", no injuries inflicted though it sounded alarming they avoided bites.

No harm done, the next dog greeting, some tension was shown, but once that passed, Freddie acted normally with other dogs after and seemed his normal self.

Will be interesting to see if he's more wary of other Spaniels now though. He generally avoids dogs that are tense and not comfortable socially, it's the very first time I've seen him surprised, since he was a small puppy.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

MMmmm Rob, does sound like spookily familiar behaviour  

Well progress today, great walk really, Oscar was offlead throughout and met 2 new dogs without any issue.

The first was a black scottie dog who attached himself to our group for a bit (no owner in the immediate vicinity ) and a very playful labradoodle that Oscar had a great romp with actually  

I am learning to "interupt" play/greetings when they are still positive and moving him on.

Only issue with the doodle was the owner had the doodle off and a weimy IN SEASON on a lead. The Doodle wanted to play so Oscar was having great fun there but the weimy was grumpy as hell because she was in season and was a bit unsettled by the doodle and Oscars play. Bloody good job my mate had her large ENTIRE male ON LEAD   

All in all a positive step though


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Has Oscar, kept his clean sheet? Another Spaniel went major snappy on a Spinone on my evening walk. Since you started this thread, all the dog aggro I've seen has involved spaniels!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Sorry Rob, missed your post somehow but was going to update anyway.

Have had good success so far with keeping his nose clean.

Am treating lots for positive interaction or no interaction
Continuing off lead fun with known dogs
Keep all meet and greets short and sweet (this is really helping )
Am prohibiting ALL interaction that i think could set him off by instructing other owners who approach to say hi
Am focussing on Oscars recall from other dogs with no interaction and ignoring other dogs on a walk so i can feel comfy letting him offlead 
Have begun walks with our neighbours new Yorkie pup who Oscar has shown territorial aggression towards already but walked happily (on lead obviously) all round the park with today 

Overall we are doing OK


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Update.

Oscar is improved. But i still think the issue is there as bad as it has been i just think i have learnt to pre empt, avoid and distract.

Most importantly i have trained him to ignore most new dogs when we are out so i can pick and choose who he sais Hi to.

This weekend at the Chalet he played with the lovely Goldie in the chalet opposit. She is about 4 yrs old. Oscar instigated play and she obliged but got a big heavy handed with him and he threw a tantrum at her, was interesting to watch because she just ended the play and he stopped going for her and then they had another play. I need him to have more access to dogs like this but not sure how 

Later though at Holkham i was distracted and hubby had him and let him say hello to a black lab who he sniffed and seemed ok with then launched himself at it all teeth and handbags  Same old behaviour. I kept him on and avoided other dogs while we were there  

Anyone think a permanent steady female playmate might help teach him to play without having these tantrums ?? 

The pup next door is also becoming a real issue, he now goes ballistic when he sees her go past the window for a walk (he generally only does this with cats and we have lots of dogs walk past every day) Have told the neighbour i am going to steal Elsie for a few evenings and walk them together but don't want to stress her out


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sorry to hear that Oscar is still having a few 'issues' with other dogs. My whole life seems to be dealing with Roxy's problems at the moment so I'm the last person who can advise you .... just sympathise with you 

If you needed a dog to walk near/past, etc then I could always bring Toby to the Gogs one day for Ocar to meet him again. I'm off all this week (Roxy socialisation training .... again!!) so if it's something that may be benefical let me know.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Sorry to hear that Oscar is still having a few 'issues' with other dogs. My whole life seems to be dealing with Roxy's problems at the moment so I'm the last person who can advise you .... just sympathise with you
> 
> If you needed a dog to walk near/past, etc then I could always bring Toby to the Gogs one day for Ocar to meet him again. I'm off all this week (Roxy socialisation training .... again!!) so if it's something that may be benefical let me know.


Thanks hun xx It's not really the walking past, he won't bother a dog just stiffens if he sees one we don't know but he needs really steady dogs to play with (like the Goldie at the weekend) She was perfect because she didn't get at all bolshy with him she just stood dead still, turned away from him until he calmed down, then she buggered off for a sulk  then came back to say hello.

Funniest bit was the owners of the Goldie are thinking of getting another dog and are considering a Cocker and they said they would get one in a shot if they could have one just like Oscar  I nearly fell over (lol) and was sorely tempted  But he is lovely if you just take out these silly tantrums 

Biggest worry i have is that his behaviour will kick off a proper fight and he might get hurt. I have resisted so far because i didnt want to stress him out but i think i might ring my old obedience trainer and see if i can take Oscar down to meet his GSDs  Maybe a few "play" dates with the big boys will help him learn some manners


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Biggest worry i have is that his behaviour will kick off a proper fight and he might get hurt. I have resisted so far because i didnt want to stress him out but i think i might ring my old obedience trainer and see if i can take Oscar down to meet his GSDs  Maybe a few "play" dates with the big boys will help him learn some manners


That's not rational thinking!

You have learned that your dog reacts "aggressively" with little warning if over stressed, now you are suggesting a way to have symptoms stamped out, but in past you noticed Oscar was already respectful of larger dogs, who he thinks he cannot bully.

"Might is right!", is the wrong lesson to teach! Oscar surely needs to learn benefits of gentle calm interactions with dogs that don't intimidate him and not be fearful or panic, when they move in close.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Even if you want to meet for a play date. Toby doesn't play alot with smaller dogs but he is a friendly, steady dog. He can tolerate over excitedness & pushiness (he's had plenty of experience with Roxy!) but does know when to put his foot down & stop. He tends to walk away from situations that may escalate (I've watched him do this with Roxy) so if you need him then let me know


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Even if you want to meet for a play date. Toby doesn't play alot with smaller dogs but he is a friendly, steady dog. He can tolerate over excitedness & pushiness (he's had plenty of experience with Roxy!) but does know when to put his foot down & stop. He tends to walk away from situations that may escalate (I've watched him do this with Roxy) so if you need him then let me know


Thanks  Would be lovely to have a walk again anyway xx What are good days for you and i will have a look at the calendar x


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I am free most afternoons this week or any time over the weekend. I am taking Roxy back to Wood Green - not to leave there, (although tempting that may be!!) between 11am - 1pm a few days to walk around when the other dogs are being walked. Hopefully so she can get more exposure to dogs without the worry of them bounding over to her. Any time after that I can be around with Toby

Have pm'ed you my number


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Just an update on this for continuity.

I am pleased to announce i really think we are over the worst of this. I have discoverred by observing that if Oscar is allowed to display his "handbags" attitude and is ignored by the other dog then he very quickly settles and is absolutely fine.

He joined a fabulous gang of Goldies on the beach whilst we were away, did a bit of initial handbags and then had an absolute ball with them. Interestingly he adored the younger girlie and they had a real romp and the lady was suprised that her oldest lad allowed this because usually he is apparently a bit protective of her which shows that Oscar is giving off positive doggie vibes 

Today we met Elsie (next doors Yorkie who Oscar gets very vocal when he spots out the window) 

Anyway my neighbour was keen for them to say hello and is well aware of Oscars behaviour so i asked her to cross the road so they didnt meet face on and then we introduced them. Again the usual handbag woofing but when Elsie showed she was no threat Oscar was happy to meet and greet and they had no problems at all which was a massive step forward IMO.

I am certainly pretty confident now that Oscar wouldnt physically harm another dog during these episodes and alot of it is just posturing and noise and he has always had a tendancy to react vocally to anything he is unsure of.

All good really


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Just an update on this for continuity.
> 
> I am pleased to announce i really think we are over the worst of this. I have discoverred by observing that if Oscar is allowed to display his "handbags" attitude and is ignored by the other dog then he very quickly settles and is absolutely fine.
> 
> ...


Great news. A lot of the time, these things are just posturing and noise, which shows how insecure some dogs are on first meetings. But when they figure out that there is not threat around, they relax.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Fantastic - am really pleased for you! 

Hope you all had a lovely holiday


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Great news. A lot of the time, these things are just posturing and noise, which shows how insecure some dogs are on first meetings. But when they figure out that there is not threat around, they relax.


Yes, its very difficult to keep sdocialising them through this though because it looks and sounds like he really means business. I am lucky in that Oscar is a spaniel so most people have been happy to allow me to let him say hello etc but i doubt it would have been so easy if he had been a Larger dog with a worse public image 

Hopefully this thread will show though that it is worth taking a step back and that with a little space and time these things can be improved rather than just accepting the issuue and avoiding contact with other dogs 



Cleo38 said:


> Fantastic - am really pleased for you!
> 
> Hope you all had a lovely holiday


Had a lovely break thanks xx


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Thought i would do a quick update.

Well we have been working on this for quite some time now and things are much improved.

This week Oscar has greeted 3 unknown dogs in a happy and positive way. These were dogs i would have been unhappy letting him greet before and he would have gone for.

Keeping my voice upbeat, happy and reassuring and keeping meetings short and sweet is still key and i am still prefering to call him to me and treat when new unknown dogs pass to reinforce A) It's a good thing and B) He doesn't HAVE to say hello to everyone.

We still have an issue at the Cafe and he will lose the plot at any dog that approaches the area but i am using distraction for this and trying to be as on the ball as i can.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I was just thinking about this thread the other day - glad that things are improving so much .


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

So here we are. 7 months after i posted this.

This weekend i walked Oscar on Mundesley beach. It was pretty busy as you can imagine (but its never heaving). I am very careful with Oscar when arriving at a place as this is a flashpoint for him so if there are any dogs about on the approach i sit and treat him while they pass.

The beauty of Mundesley is it is full of real doggy types who understand that dogs are dogs and this helps my confidence 

So once we got to the beach i unleashed Oscar as we walked along a while.

I couldn't have asked for a better behaved spaniel. He had a great walk, met some lovely doggies whom he was impeccable with, came when he was asked and didn't bogoff up the cliffs :thumbup:.

Very very proud that we have got back to this point, shows how long it can take to resolve an issue like this  (and i am not daft enough to think it is 100% sorted)

Someone told me that to have an obedient cocker you had to "break their spirit"  There were times when i wondered if this was true, knowing i couldn't ever do that to Oscar. It has taken a while but i am proud that he is where he is and still a lovely naughty playful boy


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Fantastic - well done, you have every right to be very proud of what you have achieved :thumbup: .


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## xhuskyloverx (May 5, 2010)

Sounds like he's doing alot better  Well done :thumbup:


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Glad to hear this news. Ollie went through various phases of "big cocky boy" right up to he was 3 years old. He's much better now and is fantastic with 95% of dogs he meets, and very occasionally will growl at a bouncy, enthastic puppy who is in his face, which he is quite within his rights to do so, and most puppy owners are fine with this. I think most adult dogs will have a go at a bouncy puppy because it is seen as disrespectful in their eyes.

I will also say that I don't think that to get an obedient cocker, you need to break their spirit. Ollie is obedient and he's a joy to own now (didn't think I'd be saying that 2 years ago, or even several months ago), and he definitely still has spirit. :thumbup:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Well done, fantastic news


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I am so happy for you. It is great to hear about the progress you have made and it is an inspiration for those still struggling. Well done x


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Thought i would update this thread as i often refer people to it who have similarly "grumpy" hounds.

I have learnt lots over the last few months and learned to accept and manage Oscars tantrums.

It is defintely fear based.

It is not an attack, merely a mechanism he has learnt for getting other dogs not to bother him. He likes to get in first because generally this gets him what he wants.

If the other dog is unphased he shows submission and settles with them.

On introducing him to my sisters new puppy i was nervous and yes he kicked off but being a terrier my sisters pup went right back at him and Oscar submitted. For the rest of the walk if the pup approached Oscar looked away and showed discomfort but did not go for it.

On their 2nd walk i let oscar off and the pup enjoyed following Oscar around learning all about how to be a dog, sniffing for lovely smells and confronting the squirrels. The pup gave him respect and didn't jump all over him so both dogs learnt a valuable lesson :thumbsup:

We also met a lovey boxer who promptly put Oscar on the floor when he kicked off without showing aggression back and then was happy to be his mate showing Oscar that his brattish behaviour would not be tolerated but didn't mean they couldn't be friends. 

I have taught him that dogs are ok and mean good things (by rewarding positive interaction) and now he needs to learn from is peers (in a controlled way) how to socialise.

It has been a long haul but slowly we are both learning to relax and enjoy walks again wthout anticipating disaster at every meeting with another dog


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

OK so i am determined to re socialise Oscar now i am 100% happy that i understand his behaviour and he isn't a threat to other dogs so today i saw a VERY bouncy adolescent goldie heading our way off lead and not going to stop until he had made friends.

My first instinct before would have been to panic but now my instinct was to let Oscar off to greet him on level terms (he is far worse on lead)

Anyway i didn't have time to unclip so inevitable Oscar warned the Goldie that he wasn't having any of his nonsense. The owner aarrived and i had Oscar in a sit whilst the Goldie hurtled round and i asked the owner if he was happy for me to let Oscar off which he was. 

Oscar danced and barked a bit putting the bouncy youngster in his place beautifully not over the top) and then they settled, oscars other doggy friends arrived so oscar went off to say hello to them and didn't bother the Goldie again, until the Goldie harassed him at which point oscar gave him a bit of a telling off but nothing i wouldn't expect from an older dog telling a youngster how it is.

We met a young black Lab further along and i clipped Oscar off and he was absolutely fine, quick greeting and moved on.

I think we can safely celebrate this as "progress"


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I would definitely say that was progress; well done!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> OK so i am determined to re socialise Oscar now i am 100% happy that i understand his behaviour and he isn't a threat to other dogs so today i saw a VERY bouncy adolescent goldie heading our way off lead and not going to stop until he had made friends.
> 
> My first instinct before would have been to panic but now my instinct was to let Oscar off to greet him on level terms (he is far worse on lead)
> 
> ...


well done. i think cockers tend to have this temperament, they tend to tell puppies/young dogs off for misbehaviour. Ollie is perfectly happy with dogs who keep all four paws on the ground, but once they jump on him, he gives them a "telling off" and I don't see this as bad behaviour on his part, its doggy behaviour.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> well done. i think cockers tend to have this temperament, they tend to tell puppies/young dogs off for misbehaviour. Ollie is perfectly happy with dogs who keep all four paws on the ground, but once they jump on him, he gives them a "telling off" and I don't see this as bad behaviour on his part, its doggy behaviour.


I agree  His behaviour today was at a level i would expect and IMO a very good lesson for the retriever but previously his first line of defence was attack and went beyond acceptable doggy manners.

It's good to see him re learning the rules of engagement


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Brilliant progress.......well done both of you xxx


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## kath3kidz (Jul 24, 2010)

Hi Rainybow,
I haven't been on here for a bit (too busy dog walkin!) and I thought I'd see how Oscar was getting on. Sounds like he's coming along fine, which is similar to how Muffin is doing.
Like you, I am now much more confident and relaxed myself, and more able to understand what he is doing and why. He still has some bad days when he seems to be lunging at other dogs a lot, but thankfully these are now the exception rather than the rule.
He had a really bad day last sunday, and I was wondering what had affected him.
One thing that I really think has helped him is that he has 2 drops of Bach Remedy Cherry plum morning and night, and I also give himDoreen Paige Aggression once a day. I tried taking him off it and he seemed noticeably worse, more reactive and jumpy. When on it he seems much more relaxed and calm and friendly. Also I wondered about Sunday as Monday was a full moon...... don't laugh, I really think there might be summat in it??!!!
Anyway, the other thing we have done is join a local dog walking group. They meet 3 times a week, but we go probably once or twice a week. They go to a range of different places and walk for about an hour to 2 hours with all dogs off leash. I was really nervous at first, but I find being with the others, and some very experienced doggy folk keeps me relaxed, and less worried about what Muffin might do. So far he has only had a go at one dog - a highly strung GSD, who did not retaliate. But he has also played with that same dog ok several times.
He seems at his best with well socialised and friendly dogs that display a calm and positive attitude to him. I think that he reads the vibes that the other dog sends out to him and if he detects any uncertainty or insecurity from them he gets in there first. Another thing I find is that he often goes for puppies. I wonder if this is because they are still learning, and therefore give off nervy confused vibes themselves....
Anyway, nice to know that Oscar is coming on so well. I got a lot of help and support from this forum and so it is nice to stay in touch and see how everyone is doing.
Cheers
Kath and Muffin


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

kath3kidz said:


> Hi Rainybow,
> I haven't been on here for a bit (too busy dog walkin!) and I thought I'd see how Oscar was getting on. Sounds like he's coming along fine, which is similar to how Muffin is doing.
> Like you, I am now much more confident and relaxed myself, and more able to understand what he is doing and why. He still has some bad days when he seems to be lunging at other dogs a lot, but thankfully these are now the exception rather than the rule.
> He had a really bad day last sunday, and I was wondering what had affected him.
> ...


So glad muffin is doing well, sounds like you are well on the way to sorting him out  Bach flower remedies are great and i agree about the moon 

Oscar does the same to puppies  I think it is a fear response because puppies are unpredictable and haven't learnt their manners yet  My sisters pup yapped straight back at Oscar and Oscar practically crawled on his belly in indignance for the rest of the walk but he didn't have a pop at her again


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Probably my final update on this as i really think we have the problem well in hand now.

Just wanted to post to say it really is possible to turn this situation around.

Over the last few months the time between incidents has gradually diminished and positive encounters are becoming far more "the norm"

We met the dog next door today coming back on our walk and this was a dog he used to go for but he was absolutely fine with her. He is even starting to accept new dogs joining us at the cafe which was his worst place.

I do think the behaviour still sits there under the surface but we have it under control and he is a much more sociable dog than he was when i started this thread. Roll on the summer 

Well Done Oscar


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

What a fab final update - well done and have a sociable summer .


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