# Pedigree pet section questions???



## Jen26

I was just wondering how this section works as Ive only ever entered the normal ped section.

My Bengal Tricky has a small pip at the end of his tail and I just cant get the Last pc he needs for premier, he always gets great reports apart from the tail so I thought it might be worth a try in the ped pet section

Are they still as strict on faults like tail pips?

Also what colour would I enter him in , he is a brown marbled , I thought maybe he would class as a tabby???

Thanks in advance Jenny x


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## Biawhiska

marble would be any other colour / pattern i would say. is marble a tabby pattern? 

a tail fault is fine. it goes on condition, presentation, personality.


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## spid

maRBLE IS A TABBY PATTERN SO i GUES HE'D GO UNDER TABBY. (Sorry hit the caps lock key by accident)


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## Jen26

Biawhiska said:


> marble would be any other colour / pattern i would say. is marble a tabby pattern?
> 
> a tail fault is fine. it goes on condition, presentation, personality.





spid said:


> maRBLE IS A TABBY PATTERN SO i GUES HE'D GO UNDER TABBY. (Sorry hit the caps lock key by accident)


mmm, thanks for the replys. I will email the show manager and ask just to make sure.

He has plenty of purrsonality lol:thumbup1:

Cheers guys xx


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## Biawhiska

SHORTHAIR PEDIGREE PET

17 Self (single colour) Cat with or without white
18 AC Tabby Cat (except red or tortie) of any pattern, with or without white
19 Red Cat of any pattern or Any Colour Tortoiseshell or Tortie Tabby Cat, with or without white
20 AOC or Pattern Cat, with or without white (Ticked, Tipped, Smoke, Pointed etc)

is marble like a classic tabby pattern then?


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## Soupie

Definitely tabby - other marble bengal pet peds are being judged in this class.

When I judge pet peds, I judge them on their temperament, purrsonality, condition and presentation. As long as he is friendly, handles easily and is presented well he should have lots of success


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## Jen26

Biawhiska said:


> SHORTHAIR PEDIGREE PET
> 
> 17 Self (single colour) Cat with or without white
> 18 AC Tabby Cat (except red or tortie) of any pattern, with or without white
> 19 Red Cat of any pattern or Any Colour Tortoiseshell or Tortie Tabby Cat, with or without white
> 20 AOC or Pattern Cat, with or without white (Ticked, Tipped, Smoke, Pointed etc)
> 
> is marble like a classic tabby pattern then?


Is suppose it is similar, marble has a horizontal flow and no bullseye.



Soupie said:


> Definitely tabby - other marble bengal pet peds are being judged in this class.
> 
> When I judge pet peds, I judge them on their temperament, purrsonality, condition and presentation. As long as he is friendly, handles easily and is presented well he should have lots of success


Thanks Sarah, he can be a bit of a wriggler on occasions but hes a Bengal and most are like that. Hes not nasty or anything though

This is the man in question


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## Biawhiska

he'll walk it! :thumbup1:


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## Saikou

He is gorgeous Jen. I was interested the tail question myself. I have a lovely siamese neuter who would really take to showing, but he has a visible tail kink. I was under the impression that those sorts of things didn't matter for the pedigree pets, but after seeing some of the comments in write ups I am not so sure. Maybe they are just wannabe ped judges and can not help themselves, but I have seen comments on ear sets and whether the tail balanced   I thought they were supposed to be judged on temperament, condition and presentation only. Anyway it definitely put me off the idea.


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## Biawhiska

I've had non ped judges do my ped pet and they were fine, but the ped judges do comment on these things it seems. They shouldn't penalise though. My cat got his MC w/h as it says he was lilac and he is apricot. I told the SM but he said not to worry as it's not judged on colour. Well, it obviously did matter! He was in 2 shows on the same day, the other judge overlooked the mistake and gave him the MC. He needs 1 more MC which I shall try for at some point but I won't show in the ped pet bit again. The entry fees are usually the same but there are so many teething problems with it all I just don't want to. I've heard SMs are a bit fed up with it to.

Also, was their mistake, my entry form clearly said apricot pt!


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## Saikou

I think if I did ever enter one of mine into those classes, I would pick my judges carefully, definitely no ped judges or wannabe ped judges on the stewarding scheme. Shame you have to do that in that section as well though.

Its a shame there have been so many teething problems with it, as its a great idea.

I have had a colour problem happen to me too, my entry form was correct the catalogue wasn't - tabby siamese, checked name, parents, dob, classes etc never noticed the wrong breed no - until she was w/c in a side class in the afternoon. All other judges had checked, except for that one. I queried it with the SM and was told "its only a side class"  then don't charge to enter them :mad2: :mad2:


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## Jen26

Saikou said:


> He is gorgeous Jen. I was interested the tail question myself. I have a lovely siamese neuter who would really take to showing, but he has a visible tail kink. I was under the impression that those sorts of things didn't matter for the pedigree pets, but after seeing some of the comments in write ups I am not so sure. Maybe they are just wannabe ped judges and can not help themselves, but I have seen comments on ear sets and whether the tail balanced   I thought they were supposed to be judged on temperament, condition and presentation only. Anyway it definitely put me off the idea.


I have to admit Ive never read any of the HP reports, Ill give it a go and just see what happens on the day.
Its a shame about your cats tail kink, was he born with it?

Tricky wasnt born with it, it appeared when he was about 4 months old, he did have a nasty fall (unless one of my other cats pushed him) from the top of my landing to the bottom of the stairs, he sprained his leg a little. I cant think of anything else. The vets said they could xray his tail and tell me if it was damage or not but to be honest I didnt want to put him through any stress for something that couldnt be changed anyway



Biawhiska said:


> I've had non ped judges do my ped pet and they were fine, but the ped judges do comment on these things it seems. They shouldn't penalise though. My cat got his MC w/h as it says he was lilac and he is apricot. I told the SM but he said not to worry as it's not judged on colour. Well, it obviously did matter! He was in 2 shows on the same day, the other judge overlooked the mistake and gave him the MC. He needs 1 more MC which I shall try for at some point but I won't show in the ped pet bit again. The entry fees are usually the same but there are so many teething problems with it all I just don't want to. I've heard SMs are a bit fed up with it to.
> 
> Also, was their mistake, my entry form clearly said apricot pt!


Thats a bit unfair I thought it was more for fun than anything else


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## Jen26

Saikou said:


> I think if I did ever enter one of mine into those classes, I would pick my judges carefully, definitely no ped judges or wannabe ped judges on the stewarding scheme. Shame you have to do that in that section as well though.
> 
> Its a shame there have been so many teething problems with it, as its a great idea.
> 
> I have had a colour problem happen to me too, my entry form was correct the catalogue wasn't - tabby siamese, checked name, parents, dob, classes etc never noticed the wrong breed no - until she was w/c in a side class in the afternoon. All other judges had checked, except for that one. I queried it with the SM and was told "its only a side class"  then don't charge to enter them :mad2: :mad2:


I had that happen too a few years ago, but in the open class I check everything now just in case


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## kozykatz

Unfortunately some people seem to think they can chop and change between the pedigree section and pedigree pet classes - i stewarded for a HP judge at the Supreme yesterday and there was an Oriental there in the PP class who I know has been shown in the pedigree section in the past......
I know nothing can be done to stop this happening, but it isn't really in the spirit of the HP section


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## Jen26

kozykatz said:


> Unfortunately some people seem to think they can chop and change between the pedigree section and pedigree pet classes - i stewarded for a HP judge at the Supreme yesterday and there was an Oriental there in the PP class who I know has been shown in the pedigree section in the past......
> I know nothing can be done to stop this happening, but it isn't really in the spirit of the HP section


I suppose Iam doing exactly that

Ive been showing tricky for over 2 years in the regular ped section, he consistently gets firsts but the last 3 times he has been out they have witheld the pc because of his tail fault.
He always gets a good write up and the only reason they withold is because of the tail so I thought why not have a go in the ped pet section? He is a ped pet afterall so I didnt think I would be causing any harm
Am I likely to put some noses out of joint by showing him in the ped pet section?


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## allison6564

Hi
I have Ollie full pedigree Maine Coon that enters the pedigree section and Stan Selkirk Rex Variant (i.e. has straight coat and not curly, not registered) that I have to enter into the pet pedigree section as I do know that his parents are Selkirk Rex. To be honest in hindsight would of been better off from the begining to just of entered him as a non pedigree pet but being too honest and I do know his parents who are registred entered him as a pedigree. I have only had one gccf show so no expert.

I copied this from the gccf site:-
"PLEASE NOTE: CATS FROM THE PEDIGREE PET SECTION MAY NOT ENTER THE NON-PEDIGREE SECTION AT
SHOWS WHERE NO PEDIGREE PET SECTION IS OFFERED. CATS THAT ENTERED PEDIGREE LOOKALIKE
CLASSES IN THE PAST SHOULD ENTER IN THE PEDIGREE PET SECTION WHERE GCCF CERTIFICATES ARE
OFFERED. CATS CANNOT MOVE BETWEEN THE NON-PEDIGREE PET AND PEDIGREE PET CLASSES FROM
SHOW TO SHOW. THE ADMINISTRATOR WILL CHECK FOR THIS. TITLES CANNOT BE ATTAINED USING
CERTIFICATES FROM BOTH HOUSEHOLD PET SECTIONS. ON 9.9.09 THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE AGREED A
ONE CERTIFICATE AMNESTY FOR HALF PEDIGREE CATS THAT MAY HAVE PREVIOUSLY ENTERED THE
NON-PEDIGREE SECTION IN ERROR. THE ADMINISTRATOR WILL SORT THIS OUT IF EXPLAINED WHEN
CLAIMING TITLE."

To me that says that if shown as a pedigree then can't show as a pet whcih to be honest I think is fair. It would be like me showing Ollie after two years in the pet section which can't be right surely???

Sorry to be honest and blunt about this but I am new to showing and thought that pedigree or pet and you couldn't swop halfway through a showing career.


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## Kalipha

Actually that says that if a cat has been shown as a pedigree pet they cannot be shown as a non-pedigree pet, not that cats that have been shown in 'proper' pedigree classes cannot be shown as pedigree pets. Though I would admit it'd seem logical.


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## Jen26

I may have it wrong but I think that just means you cant swap between the household pet and ped pet sections.

I have seen a few cats that have previously been shown in the regular ped section and are now being shown in the ped pet section, probably like me they have a cat with a witholding fault.


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## allison6564

Yes sorry my mistake, like I said new to showing a real novice:confused5:

Suppose if there's no rule against it then must be ok .


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## kozykatz

Sorry, I wasn't commenting on your boy! 
I suppose that once you've decided to show in the non-pedigree section it would be a bit unethical to expect to go back to the pedigree section.



Jen26 said:


> I suppose Iam doing exactly that
> 
> Ive been showing tricky for over 2 years in the regular ped section, he consistently gets firsts but the last 3 times he has been out they have witheld the pc because of his tail fault.
> He always gets a good write up and the only reason they withold is because of the tail so I thought why not have a go in the ped pet section? He is a ped pet afterall so I didnt think I would be causing any harm
> Am I likely to put some noses out of joint by showing him in the ped pet section?


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## allison6564

no don't worry didn't think you meant my boy, I meant that if no rule against it then it must be ok for the lady who started the thread to show in pet section.


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## Jen26

kozykatz said:


> Sorry, I wasn't commenting on your boy!
> I suppose that once you've decided to show in the non-pedigree section it would be a bit unethical to expect to go back to the pedigree section.


No , I definatly wont be showing him in the pedigree section again. Ive ran out of judges to try now for the last pc
I just feel he has been robbed his chance because of the tiny pip he has in his tail I just want him to have the shot he deserves.


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## Saikou

There's at least one IGP now being shown in the ped pet classes. I can understand people moving from the ped to ped pet classes if their cat has something that would prevent them from gaining a title, thats what the classes are for, but not highly titled cats moving into them. Why would you want to do that ? I agree thats not really the spirit of those classes.

Jen, Bertie was born with his kink, its a common problem in siamese. It doesn't bother him, just makes him special - well thats what I tell him anyway


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## Jen26

Saikou said:


> There's at least one IGP now being shown in the ped pet classes. I can understand people moving from the ped to ped pet classes if their cat has something that would prevent them from gaining a title, thats what the classes are for, but not highly titled cats moving into them. Why would you want to do that ? I agree thats not really the spirit of those classes.
> 
> Jen, Bertie was born with his kink, its a common problem in siamese. It doesn't bother him, just makes him special - well thats what I tell him anyway


Iam sure Bertie is gorgeous, your right , it just makes him that bit more special


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## Saikou

This is my Bertie, doing what he does best - talking


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## Jen26

Wow, he certainly is a stunner! I can see why you couldn't part with him.


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## carolmanycats

There is nothing at all to stop you showing a cat as a pedigree then swopping to the pet pedigree section and, at the moment, also no actual rule to stop you swapping backwards and forwards, though morally I agree that it is not right and am actively trying to get such a rule put in place as I think it is most unfair. I guess if a person has a cat who has reached the highest level it can as a pedigree still wants to have fun showing it without blocking other cats and does not want to go for BOB only as a pedigree then there is nothing to stop them showing it in the PP section, so long as they don't then go back. The judging criteria is different so the fact that a cat is an Imperial means nothing in the PP section as it is judged soley on temperament, condituion and grooming and not type.

Our PP lad has an undershot jaw, which is a WH fault in his breed, we knew there could be a few judges who would not notice, or be lenient as he is a neuter but also knew it could take a year or more to have them at the right shows and that he would neverr progress further, so we decided, after having entered him at the Chester as a pedigree, but before the show, to switch him and entered the next show as a PP. Ironically, at the Chester, he had one of the few judges who gave him a PC! The temptation was there to wait for the other judges and switch him back as it happened but even though in theory, at the moment, we could do, we don't feel it is right morally to do so and therefore he will stay as a PP but we also don't feel we are doing anything wrong simply because he did manage to get 2 ICs and PC as a pedigree.

Carol


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## Jen26

carolmanycats said:


> There is nothing at all to stop you showing a cat as a pedigree then swopping to the pet pedigree section and, at the moment, also no actual rule to stop you swapping backwards and forwards, though morally I agree that it is not right and am actively trying to get such a rule put in place as I think it is most unfair. I guess if a person has a cat who has reached the highest level it can as a pedigree still wants to have fun showing it without blocking other cats and does not want to go for BOB only as a pedigree then there is nothing to stop them showing it in the PP section, so long as they don't then go back. The judging criteria is different so the fact that a cat is an Imperial means nothing in the PP section as it is judged soley on temperament, condituion and grooming and not type.
> 
> Our PP lad has an undershot jaw, which is a WH fault in his breed, we knew there could be a few judges who would not notice, or be lenient as he is a neuter but also knew it could take a year or more to have them at the right shows and that he would neverr progress further, so we decided, after having entered him at the Chester as a pedigree, but before the show, to switch him and entered the next show as a PP. Ironically, at the Chester, he had one of the few judges who gave him a PC! The temptation was there to wait for the other judges and switch him back as it happened but even though in theory, at the moment, we could do, we don't feel it is right morally to do so and therefore he will stay as a PP but we also don't feel we are doing anything wrong simply because he did manage to get 2 ICs and PC as a pedigree.
> 
> Carol


Its funny how some judges will overlook these sorts of faults? Tricky managed 6 or 7 IC's before they got championship and then 2 PC's, then all of a suddon they just witheld on him. I dont know if his tail got suddenly worse or I was just picking the judges who like to withold, myself personally I think when they are neutered and Its not a visible fault or anything affecting there health could be overlooked if they are otherwise outstanding in every other way, but I suppose I would think that being biased


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## Saikou

If you have a highly titled cat and still enjoy showing them then put them on exhibition, or just put them in for BOB and side classes. That way you are not stopping anyone getting certs and if they gain BOB they can still compete for BIS.

The rules definitely need to be tightened up, so that a cat is either a ped, or ped pet. If a cat has been shown as a ped, but develops or is found to have a w/h fault and have no chance at a title as a ped, then they can transition to ped pet. A title as a ped should exclude them from the ped pet classes.


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## kozykatz

An undershot (or overshot) jaw is a withholding fault in ALL breeds, it is listed as a veterinary defect in GCCF's guide, so it certainly should not be overlooked even in a neuter, unless it is very marginal (i.e. the teeth do not have a noticeable gap between upper and lower incisors)



Jen26 said:


> Its funny how some judges will overlook these sorts of faults? Tricky managed 6 or 7 IC's before they got championship and then 2 PC's, then all of a suddon they just witheld on him. I dont know if his tail got suddenly worse or I was just picking the judges who like to withold, myself personally I think when they are neutered and Its not a visible fault or anything affecting there health could be overlooked if they are otherwise outstanding in every other way, but I suppose I would think that being biased


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## kozykatz

Yes, I agree there does need to be some sort of ruling on this.



Saikou said:


> If you have a highly titled cat and still enjoy showing them then put them on exhibition, or just put them in for BOB and side classes. That way you are not stopping anyone getting certs and if they gain BOB they can still compete for BIS.
> 
> The rules definitely need to be tightened up, so that a cat is either a ped, or ped pet. If a cat has been shown as a ped, but develops or is found to have a w/h fault and have no chance at a title as a ped, then they can transition to ped pet. A title as a ped should exclude them from the ped pet classes.


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## Soupie

Saikou said:


> He is gorgeous Jen. I was interested the tail question myself. I have a lovely siamese neuter who would really take to showing, but he has a visible tail kink. I was under the impression that those sorts of things didn't matter for the pedigree pets, but after seeing some of the comments in write ups I am not so sure. Maybe they are just wannabe ped judges and can not help themselves, but I have seen comments on ear sets and whether the tail balanced   I thought they were supposed to be judged on temperament, condition and presentation only. Anyway it definitely put me off the idea.


Hi I have judged a wonderful Siberian ped pet with a tail fault - it doesn't matter and should never be considered a problem. I didn't even comment on it in my critique and I made him Best Pedigree Pet and he then went on to be overall BIS Pet that day.

I'm on the stewarding scheme and I am a "wannabe" ped judge but have been very determined to judge the HHPS/Ped Pets according to their criteria and strictly so - I think I have the dubious distinction of being the first to withhold a Grand Master certificate on temperament grounds 

I actually think that being on the stewarding scheme IS an advantage. I have learned to handle a multitude of breeds and believe me with the number of Bengals in the Ped Pet section this is definitely an advantage. I know they are Bengals but I am not judging them as Bengals. Knowing how to handle the breed though really helps as I am not scared and don't misinterpret their chatter. I also have lots of experience with young kittens and handling nervous cats and often will handle them myself if they look nervous or my steward is unsure.

To be honest (and I show a Pet Ped too as does my best friend) the worst HHP judges I have seen are those who are "mates" with show managers, never done any stewarding and have no idea about handling cats at a show and then withhold certificates but can't tell you why they have withheld and never produce a critique so you never do find out.....

Jen - I would say go for it - he looks super (definitely tabby class though!) and make sure you go under people who are regular and known HHP judges and will have some idea of how to handle the cats. Carol has a list of the recognised experienced judges and am sure she will give you some pointers.

Agree on Pet Peds not then going back to show as a pedigree but have no objections to them having been shown as a pedigree (my own has and is a qualifying cat for breed progression) as long as they stick to pet peds once the switch has been made like they have to do in TICA


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## Soupie

Saikou said:


> I think if I did ever enter one of mine into those classes, I would pick my judges carefully, definitely no ped judges or wannabe ped judges on the stewarding scheme. Shame you have to do that in that section as well though.




Can I ask why not anybody on the stewarding scheme?


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## Soupie

allison6564 said:


> Hi
> I have Ollie full pedigree Maine Coon that enters the pedigree section and Stan Selkirk Rex Variant (i.e. has straight coat and not curly, not registered) that I have to enter into the pet pedigree section as I do know that his parents are Selkirk Rex. To be honest in hindsight would of been better off from the begining to just of entered him as a non pedigree pet but being too honest and I do know his parents who are registred entered him as a pedigree. I have only had one gccf show so no expert.
> 
> .


Well no - he is a known pedigree - he may not be registered but entering him as a non ped would be wrong and frowned upon by other exhibitors. The pedigree pet section is for "known" pedigrees or half pedigrees so you did the right thing entering him as a ped pet from the start


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## Biawhiska

I can not see what's wrong with entering a IGP in the ped pet class!!!!!! After all its not judged the same. I Think it's awful people want this stopped! They are open to all, why would it be unfair!!!!?!???


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## Jen26

Thanks Sarah, I will give Carol a pm.

I wonder why there are so many bengals in the ped pet section?:confused1:


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## Soupie

Jen26 said:


> Thanks Sarah, I will give Carol a pm.
> 
> I wonder why there are so many bengals in the ped pet section?:confused1:


Some have faults or not up to the standard on the show bench and I think some cannot be registered GCCF as don't meet the breed policy - I *think* anyway. But there are several successful Bengals and half Bengals showing in the section


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## Saikou

Soupie said:


> Can I ask why not anybody on the stewarding scheme?


As I said, I would class them as wannabe ped judges, and from the critiques I have read, can not see passed that ambition and it shows in the way they write and the 'qualities' they considered worth mentioning. For the same reasons I would avoid a ped judge.

I would much rather a genuine cat lover who has no pre conceived ideas about what a pedigree cat should look like so just judges on exactly what they see in front of them - a complete cat full of purrsonality and not a series of points. Surely thats the spirit behind the classes.

These are just my personal opinions, and if I were to enter a cat in the ped pet section would be as picky with who I entered him/her under as I would be if I was entering a ped - its personal choice at the end of the day.


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## Saikou

Biawhiska said:


> I can not see what's wrong with entering a IGP in the ped pet class!!!!!! After all its not judged the same. I Think it's awful people want this stopped! They are open to all, why would it be unfair!!!!?!???



It could be _perceived _that an already titled ped had an advantage over the others - just a thought. Just from a personal view of the classes, to my mind you are either a pedigree or a pedigree pet you can not be both.


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## Soupie

Saikou said:


> As I said, I would class them as wannabe ped judges, and from the critiques I have read, can not see passed that ambition and it shows in the way they write and the 'qualities' they considered worth mentioning. For the same reasons I would avoid a ped judge.




thank you for explaining  Of course it's your opinion - I just wondered why such a generalisation on all people on the stewarding scheme. Some of the critiques I have read by those people are brilliant and talk all about the four main judging criteria for HHPs.


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## Soupie

Saikou said:


> It could be _perceived _that an already titled ped had an advantage over the others - just a thought. Just from a personal view of the classes, to my mind you are either a pedigree or a pedigree pet you can not be both.


I see your point but can't see there being a problem as long as the cat does not then swop back to the pedigree section. TICA has the same system and a cat can be shown as a ped then move to the HHPs but can never be shown again as a ped.


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## Saikou

Soupie said:


> thank you for explaining  Of course it's your opinion - I just wondered why such a generalisation on all people on the stewarding scheme. Some of the critiques I have read by those people are brilliant and talk all about the four main judging criteria for HHPs.


I wouldn't call it a generalisation more an observation made on the evidence I have seen. Certainly no more of a generalisation than stating being on the stewarding scheme is an advantage. Granted the individual may well have had the opportunity to handle a wide variety of breeds, does not automatically follow that they learnt anything from that experience, or are any good at it!!!


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## Biawhiska

just wondered why a ped pet can't be shown in ped section again if it has no faults?


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## Soupie

At the moment Vix it can be but I and others feel this is against the spirit of the new section.

I personally believe that that is having two bites of the cherry swopping back and forth between the sections and it is highly likely that a rule will come in to prevent this. If it has no faults show it to the highest it can get as a pedigree then if you want to do pet ped swop it over permanently ....

But that's just my personal opinion although I know Carol and I and many others agree on this ......


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## Saikou

As an aside, Vicki what class do you enter your apricot point into ? Self because technically he is albeit with points, or tabby because red series look tabby or any other colour/pattern because of his points. I would be lost if I did ever enter Bertie, I could argue him under all 3


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## Biawhiska

Saikou said:


> As an aside, Vicki what class do you enter your apricot point into ? Self because technically he is albeit with points, or tabby because red series look tabby or any other colour/pattern because of his points. I would be lost if I did ever enter Bertie, I could argue him under all 3


i thought that too but as he is a pointed cat its AOC.
i was gonna show my tabby & white bi colour and i'm told she'll be AOC too and not tabby! nightmare!


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## Biawhiska

Soupie said:


> At the moment Vix it can be but I and others feel this is against the spirit of the new section.
> 
> I personally believe that that is having two bites of the cherry swopping back and forth between the sections and it is highly likely that a rule will come in to prevent this. If it has no faults show it to the highest it can get as a pedigree then if you want to do pet ped swop it over permanently ....
> 
> But that's just my personal opinion although I know Carol and I and many others agree on this ......


yeah i know what you mean. 
i do think though that titled cats should have a go at it as it is judged completly differently


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## Jen26

Soupie said:


> Some have faults or not up to the standard on the show bench and I think some cannot be registered GCCF as don't meet the breed policy - I *think* anyway. But there are several successful Bengals and half Bengals showing in the section


Hopefully there will be one more very soon


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## Saikou

Biawhiska said:


> i do think though that titled cats should have a go at it as it is judged completly differently


As long as they are genuinely judged differently. If thats the decision that council makes.

I think its asking a pedigree judge/wannabe to be superhuman. Surely if your entire career has been looking for certain faults in a particular breed, and you are faced with 2 cats of that breed one who has no faults and one who doesn't meet the SOP it must be hard to turn off and ignore those faults judging purely on temperament/personality. Especially if they still breed, you automatically prefer the look of a "typey" cat, if that is consistently what you look for in your own kittens. That view is certainly born out by the write ups I have seen. Its almost like a professional entering an amateur competition.

I have a feeling that opinion on this point is like marmite - just as many people agree as disagree. If its ever bought to council should make for an interesting debate.


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## lizward

Biawhiska said:


> I can not see what's wrong with entering a IGP in the ped pet class!!!!!! After all its not judged the same. I Think it's awful people want this stopped! They are open to all, why would it be unfair!!!!?!???


I can't see the problem either. The criteria are totally different - or should be! If you have a judge at one show that you know doesn't like your cat - or who has already given it a certificate - why shouldn't you have a go as a pedigree pet for that show? I honestly don't see the problem.

Liz


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## Biawhiska

Saikou said:


> As long as they are genuinely judged differently. If thats the decision that council makes.
> 
> I think its asking a pedigree judge/wannabe to be superhuman. Surely if your entire career has been looking for certain faults in a particular breed, and you are faced with 2 cats of that breed one who has no faults and one who doesn't meet the SOP it must be hard to turn off and ignore those faults judging purely on temperament/personality. Especially if they still breed, you automatically prefer the look of a "typey" cat, if that is consistently what you look for in your own kittens. That view is certainly born out by the write ups I have seen. Its almost like a professional entering an amateur competition.
> 
> I have a feeling that opinion on this point is like marmite - just as many people agree as disagree. If its ever bought to council should make for an interesting debate.


to be honest my boy did better in the pedigree bit lol, until his "fault" stuck out too much :shocked: he's a bit too shy for ped pets, thing is he has 2 MCs would like to try for just the one more. He is not upset at the shows just doesn't show himself off as much as some. I'm gonna see if I can enter him in a show next year. I like to enter the ones that offer a cheaper entry fee :thumbup1:


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## Saikou

I've seen his picture and he is very handsome, I am sure he will get his last MC. I suppose its a bit more of a lottery in the ped pet section as its harder to know what a particular judge is looking for. I am sure his quiet charisma will win out in the end, its not always the in your face kind of personalities that appeal to everyone.


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## Biawhiska

thanks kim, he had a red card day at kensington lol, he won the most handsome male from 4 others, it's nice to win that class, and sleekest coat. i do like the fun side classes in ped pets :thumbup1: he is a huge boy now, weighs 14lbs, not fat just very long and with huge paws!


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## kozykatz

I think that's rather unfair, I love judging HPs and would always judge them according to the usual criteria - I might privately take note of any "faults" because as a pedigree judge it's difficult not to, but would certainly not comment on them or mark the cat down - there's no need to look at bites or feel for tail faults in HPs.



Saikou said:


> As I said, I would class them as wannabe ped judges, and from the critiques I have read, can not see passed that ambition and it shows in the way they write and the 'qualities' they considered worth mentioning. For the same reasons I would avoid a ped judge.
> 
> I would much rather a genuine cat lover who has no pre conceived ideas about what a pedigree cat should look like so just judges on exactly what they see in front of them - a complete cat full of purrsonality and not a series of points. Surely thats the spirit behind the classes.
> 
> These are just my personal opinions, and if I were to enter a cat in the ped pet section would be as picky with who I entered him/her under as I would be if I was entering a ped - its personal choice at the end of the day.


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## kozykatz

I do too!

Some people expect too much :shocked:



Soupie said:


> At the moment Vix it can be but I and others feel this is against the spirit of the new section.
> 
> I personally believe that that is having two bites of the cherry swopping back and forth between the sections and it is highly likely that a rule will come in to prevent this. If it has no faults show it to the highest it can get as a pedigree then if you want to do pet ped swop it over permanently ....
> 
> But that's just my personal opinion although I know Carol and I and many others agree on this ......


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## kozykatz

You shouldn't expect to have your cake and eat it - we are very lucky to have the pedigree pet classes in GCCF now, I think people should play fair!



lizward said:


> I can't see the problem either. The criteria are totally different - or should be! If you have a judge at one show that you know doesn't like your cat - or who has already given it a certificate - why shouldn't you have a go as a pedigree pet for that show? I honestly don't see the problem.
> 
> Liz


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## Saikou

kozykatz said:


> I think that's rather unfair, I love judging HPs and would always judge them according to the usual criteria - I might privately take note of any "faults" because as a pedigree judge it's difficult not to, but would certainly not comment on them or mark the cat down - there's no need to look at bites or feel for tail faults in HPs.


I am just voicing my opinion. I don't think its unfair at all its a reasonable concern. You may well not judge on that basis but just because you feel able to judge like that doesn't mean everyone can!!

Not on topic to this particular discussion but if the GCCF/judges listen to exhibitors concerns/complaints about certain aspects of the judging system - and like anything the minority ruin it for the majority - and I don't just mean gripes because their cats were w/h on or they want a g'teed cert with no competition, then maybe they would see more exhibitors showing long term. Anytime anyone dares to criticise in any way, it's taken personally by the respondent and just dismissed!


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## kozykatz

Well, I'm sure you know the correct procedure for voicing concerns/complaints to GCCF 



Saikou said:


> I am just voicing my opinion. I don't think its unfair at all its a reasonable concern. You may well not judge on that basis but just because you feel able to judge like that doesn't mean everyone can!!
> 
> Not on topic to this particular discussion but if the GCCF/judges listen to exhibitors concerns/complaints about certain aspects of the judging system - and like anything the minority ruin it for the majority - and I don't just mean gripes because their cats were w/h on or they want a g'teed cert with no competition, then maybe they would see more exhibitors showing long term. Anytime anyone dares to criticise in any way, it's taken personally by the respondent and just dismissed!


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## Saikou

and there's another thing that needs reviewing


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## Kalipha

Odd related question. Jasper is a pedigree cross, Mum was a burmese daddy was a moggie. Jasper himself doesn't look at all Burmese - he's just a cuddlesome black moggie, nothing special. Does he still have to go in pet ped rather the house pet because I can identify a pedigree parent, even though he looks like your common garden black mog? (Not that that's a bad thing! He's a lovely common garden black mog)


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## Saikou

I would say he would be in the non ped section.


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## allison6564

This is from the GCCF website

The Non-Pedigree Pet group would be comprised of unregistered cats from unregistered or unknown parents as now. They would be of traditional "moggie" appearance either Long/Semi-Long or Shorthaired.

The Pedigree Pet group would be comprised of cats of pedigree appearance with known or unknown pedigree, full or half pedigree, background. These are cats that are as well loved and cared for as any other Household Pet.

Bit of a funny one as if he has a known half pedigree then according to this should be a pedigree pet but then it says "moggie" appearance should be non pedigree but it also says that to be a non pedigree has to have inregsitered or unknown parents. Suppose it's like with my Stan it's down to your descretion. Stan looks absolutley nothing like a selkirk rex even though both his parents are pedigrees but he wasn't regsitered as he a varian i.e. straight haired and not curly. He looks to me just like a very adorable ginger and white moggy but as I knew his background I entered him the pet pedigree and to be honest if I hadn't I think I would of been worried about it all the time feeling like I'd done something dishonest - but thats just the way I am!! lol


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## Saikou

Assuming you don't have to input their parentage on the entry form, I would enter a cat where he/she visually looked like they would fit. A half pedigree, is a moggie at the end of the day.


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## allison6564

To be honest it is all judged on differant things like you say so I wonder if it all really makes any differance anyway.

I just had to put Stan in the pedigree bit because I knew his parents but I;'m sure you'll agree he looks nothing like a selkirk!!!! lol
But very sweet all the same and I love him and the judges appear too also!!!


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## carolmanycats

Sorry but if a cat has a KNOWN pedigree parent then regardless of what it looks like it should be in the ped ped section!


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## Saikou

But he/she isn't a pedigree   what a ridiculous decision. Asking for trouble too, giving BSBs the opportunity to up their prices for cross kittens claiming the GCCF view them as peds


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## Biawhiska

carolmanycats said:


> Sorry but if a cat has a KNOWN pedigree parent then regardless of what it looks like it should be in the ped ped section!


yep, was going to say this. so you can put variants in as well, like i think stan is  and say a rescue ped. clearly a ped but you have no idea whom the parents are.


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## carolmanycats

But they don't view them as pedigrees! They are still in the household pet section, with the "moggies" but just in a different part of the section. Fine, it MAY encourage BYBs to breed crosses and sell them at silly prices for showing but anyone can do that anyway for the HP section if they want, there will always be someone looking to make money and always some people stupid enough to be taken in. There is no more reward for "breeding" a cross than a "pure" mog but some people will always do it anyway. Plus, no matter how wonderful looking the cat is it will get nowhere in the HP section without a good temperament, you can't breed up to a standard like you can a pedigree, no matter how good the lines you can never absolutely guarantee temperament, even in Persians, which are supposed to be placid and laid back! So really there would be nothing more to be gained by breeding a cross show mog than they would get for those crosses as pets anyway.


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## Soupie

Sorry Allison he does look like a Selkirk Rex variant to me . Registered or not he is a pedigree and in the flesh he doesn't look like a moggie kitten and does look obviously pedigree which he is so you have done the correct thing putting him in the pedigree pet section.

His breeder may have chosen for whatever reason not to register him but he is a pedigree and the new section was designed precisely for kitties like him!


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## carolmanycats

I have to agree with Soupie, Allison, Stanley does look like what he is, a Selkirk Rex Variant, and you are quite right showing him as a pedigree pet, in fact, as he has 2 pedigree parents, whether he himself is registered or not, it would be very wrong to show him as anything else! I do, however, accept that Soupie and I are looking at him with a good knowledge of the breed and so have the advantage over people who are not as conversant with what they look like and, fair enough, to anyone not all that well up in the different breeds a SR variant, or, for that matter, a BSH, CAN look just like a mog even though they are quite definitely not!  In fact to people with little or no knowledge of the various breeds many LH mogs look like pedigrees - I have lost count of the number of times people have asked me what breed Raffles is LOL!


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## carolmanycats

Biawhiska said:


> yep, was going to say this. so you can put variants in as well, like i think stan is  and say a rescue ped. clearly a ped but you have no idea whom the parents are.


That is exactly right


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## Saikou

Variants, non conforming to SOP peds, obvious ped look alikes with no papers fine all make sense in the PEDIGREE pets side, crosses of 2 peds or 1 ped and a moggie *do not*.

If you are going to say they are all being judged in the HHP section anyway on temperament, presentation etc then why split out the sections at all ? Why give them separate BIS, just make them different classes


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## Biawhiska

well i guess it should be moggies in one bit. as in parents are not peds etc and the other bit called ped pets and 1/2 ped pets 

to be honest my ronnie is half mog and his mum is siamese. he looks NOTHING like a ped. he is very sleek but i'd feel very uncomfortable sticking him in ped pets!!!! i don't show him, but i would have felt he would be better in the other bit.

well, i guess it's all new. things may change, they may not. for now it doesn't affect me as i know my cat's parents, he is reg and just has a fault as he;s a male tortie.


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## allison6564

Thanks Carol for advice re Stan and the fact he does look like a variant, he is behind me now as I type and I'm so glad he can't read as he may be a bit mad at me saying such a thing!!!lol To be honest I have absolutley no knowledge of the selkirks, I just look at pics of his mum and dad on Sue's homepage and think he looks nothing like them, saying that I ave seen pictures of BSH and think he looks like them. When I got him I just saw his picture on the web and fell in love with HIM, thoght he was so sweet and when it said variant I thought at that time it meant a cross!!LOL

Sue who I bought him from did explain it all to me but even then didn't take it all in as it meant nothing, I just thought he was sweet and had to have him. Sue by the way wasn't a breeder who made loads of money as the price I paid for him wouldn't of covered the vacinations and costs of keeping him till he was 13 weeks.

As for all the other points then I have to agree that as the HP section is judged completley differantly then I can't see why all household pets can't just be in one category. Like Carol says their personality is a big part of the judging etc. I am a complete novice with all this judging and showing etc though. If this was the case then there would be no issues on what section ped or not, registered or not etc etc. and all the pets would be judged on the points mentioned. 
PS Just want to say that I have no regrets of entering Stan in the ped section and also feel better reading all these posts as I'm sure his funny little personality will shine through!!!!!:thumbup1:


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## Biawhiska

Stan is going to do very well me thinks


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