# First time litter



## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

My dog is pregnant when I took her to the vet he says she is very far gone as he could see the skeletons of the puppies on the ultrasound he estimated around 8/9 weeks. This was last week today she had a white mucus like discharge which I assume is the mucus plug the discharge had no smell and there is no sign of infection she is acting completely normal her temp is 37.7-38 degrees as it has been for two weeks. I am unsure as to when she tied but her season was around the 23rd of November when it was first noted. Is the "show" a sign of pregnancy progression to whelping? 

Before I get abuse I have delivered a litter of puppies before but that was 6/7 years ago and I cannot really remember the signs. This was a non intentional litter and have learnt the valuable lesson of not having a intact male around and not knowing bitch is in season. :mad2: 

Thanks for any answers.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

hi,
so i assume you own the male and weren't just minding him for a few days? (that would have helped pinpoint the timings)

to me it does sound like she is getting ready, so now you have to watch for contractions- they're very obvious as her whole belly will ripple. 

what breeds are dam and sire?


notbeing rude, but knowing this was coming reading up of signs of whelp and distress should have been a high priority in the last week.
it's done, no point anyone having a go- we'll be here to help through the birth and beyond of needed...
x


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

Hello yes I own the male. They are both intact due to wanting a litter next year as I wish to keep one or two of the offspring. 

Thanks for your reply. They are both Labradors. 

I have been reading up a lot over the past week and i feel I'm prepared for the whelp itself I am just anxious to as when it will be as I want to make sure I am present. I asked on here due to the hundreds of contradictory things online some are obviously wrong but others there are questionable. 
She's not showing any signs of labour except the mucus plug thing but after a lot of reading that can be another week. 

I am going to take her to the vets (a different one) to tomorrow if she doesn't drop in the next 24 hours to get a more professional opinion. 

Thanks.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Am I reading this right? You only took her to the vet 8/9 weeks after mating? 

Have you had the relevant health tests done on the bitch and sire?When did the actual mating take place? Pups are born approx. 62 days after mating.

If you were planning to breed anyway, I assume both the dog and bitch have had the relevant health tests?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I really hoped this was not going to turn into a bashing. A lot of people do not go to the vet with pregnant bitches and a lot do not health test. That is neither here nor there - we are not talking about a proposed mating, we are talking about someone asking advice over a very imminent whelping.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Djrkenyon said:


> Hello yes I own the male. They are both intact due to wanting a litter next year as I wish to keep one or two of the offspring.
> 
> Thanks for your reply. They are both Labradors.
> 
> ...


at least there isn't any major size difference. she is old enough isn't she? because if not then it could make a c-section more likely.did you see them mate? because as said above, that would pinpoint an approx date for you.

honestly, if you are thinking whelp is any time now, you should be trying to make a point to stay with her from now until they are at least 3 weeks- she could be early with little to no warning signs, and last thing you/she needs is her whelping alone....


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I'm not 'bashing', just hoping and praying that both Labs have been hip scored and tested for PRA?


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## Gypsi (Sep 10, 2013)

Just wondered why you're suggesting both parents need to be PRA tested? As it's a recessive condition if one parent is clear the puppies cannot be affected.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Gypsi said:


> Just wondered why you're suggesting both parents need to be PRA tested? As it's a recessive condition if one parent is clear the puppies cannot be affected.


Not affected themselves, no, but if the other parent _is_ affected or is a carrier, the pups could also be carriers.
Since the end goal of health tests (I assume?!) is to eliminate the health problems, to breed carriers knowingly - or through ignorance - is not the best thing to do, especially when there are likely plenty of clear tested dogs (or bitches) out there.

From what I understand, PRA affected dogs can also possibly test clear and so should be tested regularly if used for breeding? Not sure on that bit :confused5:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Also depends who has done the testing, the test was developed by Optigen, but others have developed their own test, and it's proven to be unreliable.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I really hoped this was not going to turn into a bashing. A lot of people do not go to the vet with pregnant bitches and a lot do not health test. That is neither here nor there - we are not talking about a proposed mating, we are talking about someone asking advice over a very imminent whelping.


It's perfectly valid to mention vets and testing - especially if someone else comes on and reads who is considering breeding. The forum is here to support people of course, but it is also a very useful tool for educating people who are new to breeding and may be considering it in the future, surely?

Forewarned is forearmed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

And on that note, for anyone reading, and for the OP in case they weren't aware:

The Kennel Club


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I'm not 'bashing', just hoping and praying that both Labs have been hip scored and tested for PRA?


A huge difference between the above and maybe saying something like ' not really relevant to your query but if you are planning on breeding again are you aware of the health tests that are available for your breed. ' or ' you might be interested in reading the sticky about breeding (if there is one, no idea) before you go ahead with your planned mating.'
Personally I would say nothing as it gets up people's noses and does not achieve anything except losing prospective members who would gradually learn. A breeder who does not health test will not change their mind - and lets face it the majority do not health test.

Pushing something like health testing down someone's throat is not going to make them keener to do it you know. Some of the comments on any thread about breeding would have me running for the hills if I was a newbie - and judging by the fact that they usually disappear pronto I would say I am not alone.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

This is a very *light* forum when it comes to breeding, and other issues. The slanging matches I've had on other forums and social media sites puts any threads on here in the realm of the pink and fluffy.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> This is a very *light* forum when it comes to breeding, and other issues. The slanging matches I've had on other forums and social media sites puts any threads on here in the realm of the pink and fluffy.


yup! i mean, some of the breed specific ones!?! you need skin of steel to not be offended/scared on some of them!

but, throwing tantrums when the milk is already spilled (see what i did there :ihih: ) is a bit counter productive at times! 
*and i will admit if i'm having a bad day, telling someone they're completely wrong is sometimes the best feeling, but completely the wrong attitude on such a subject!

OP- how is your girl doing now?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Blitz said:


> A huge difference between the above and maybe saying something like ' not really relevant to your query but if you are planning on breeding again are you aware of the health tests that are available for your breed. ' or ' you might be interested in reading the sticky about breeding (if there is one, no idea) before you go ahead with your planned mating.'
> Personally I would say nothing as it gets up people's noses and does not achieve anything except losing prospective members who would gradually learn. A breeder who does not health test will not change their mind - and lets face it the majority do not health test.
> 
> *Pushing something like health testing down someone's throat* is not going to make them keener to do it you know. Some of the comments on any thread about breeding would have me running for the hills if I was a newbie - and judging by the fact that they usually disappear pronto I would say I am not alone.


Was I rude in any way?

No.

Did I 'bash' the OP?

No.

Nothing I said was negative OR unpleasant. Nor did I go on and on and 'push' health tests 'down people's throats'!

I'm not going to apologise for reminding anyone who may be 'lurking' that these health tests can make the difference between a dog going blind or being able to see.

And frankly if the OP was that sensitive that my brief response chased them away, then they're far too sensitive for posting on an open forum!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

kodakkuki said:


> yup! i mean, some of the breed specific ones!?! you need skin of steel to not be offended/scared on some of them!
> 
> but, *throwing tantrums *when the milk is already spilled (see what i did there :ihih: ) is a bit counter productive at times!
> *and i will admit if i'm having a bad day, telling someone they're completely wrong is sometimes the best feeling, but completely the wrong attitude on such a subject!
> ...


Please show me where anyone 'threw tantrums' because I know I didn't in my post.

It's mad. I'm not the person who allowed a dog to get pregnant yet I'm the one who is being 'bashed'!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Please show me where anyone 'threw tantrums' because I know I didn't in my post.
> 
> It's mad. I'm not the person who allowed a dog to get pregnant yet I'm the one who is being 'bashed'!


I don't think they were referring to you, more just generally, where things get slightly heated with threads about *accidental* litters springing up left right and centre.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't think they were referring to you, more just generally, where things get slightly heated with threads about *accidental* litters springing up left right and centre.


BLITZ meant me, she quoted me 

I agree that support should always be offered to anyone who asks for help - absolutely.

But there is nothing wrong in a polite mention of the health tests.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Please show me where anyone 'threw tantrums' because I know I didn't in my post.
> 
> It's mad. I'm not the person who allowed a dog to get pregnant yet I'm the one who is being 'bashed'!


oh yes, because every comment is about yourself.

i was speaking in general- about the approach *some* people have on *some* forums...
is that enough explanation for my one comment on people getting a bit antsy?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> BLITZ meant me, she quoted me
> 
> I agree that support should always be offered to anyone who asks for help - absolutely.
> 
> But there is nothing wrong in a polite mention of the health tests.


Blitz meant you, but not kodakkuki, they were I'm sure, just commenting generally about the sort of tantrums that can happen on breeding threads.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Blitz meant you, but not kodakkuki, they were I'm sure, just commenting generally about the sort of tantrums that can happen on breeding threads.


Fair point 

KODAKKUKI - if I misunderstood your post and answered irritably, please accept my apologies.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Blitz meant you, but not kodakkuki, they were I'm sure, just commenting generally about the sort of tantrums that can happen on breeding threads.


yup, was indeed!:thumbsup:


Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Fair point
> 
> KODAKKUKI - if I misunderstood your post and answered irritably, please accept my apologies.


of course; things do seem to get heated with no need in this section!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

kodakkuki said:


> yup, was indeed!:thumbsup:
> things do seem to get heated with no need in this section!


My apologies KODAKKUKI


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Blitz said:


> A huge difference between the above and maybe saying something like ' not really relevant to your query but if you are planning on breeding again are you aware of the health tests that are available for your breed. ' or ' you might be interested in reading the sticky about breeding (if there is one, no idea) before you go ahead with your planned mating.'
> Personally I would say nothing as it gets up people's noses and does not achieve anything except losing prospective members who would gradually learn. A breeder who does not health test will not change their mind - and lets face it the majority do not health test.
> 
> Pushing something like health testing down someone's throat is not going to make them keener to do it you know. Some of the comments on any thread about breeding would have me running for the hills if I was a newbie - and judging by the fact that they usually disappear pronto I would say I am not alone.


We know you don't think health tests are necessary but I get sick of people breeding without using them (and my breed too - I probably won't have commented otherwise). This might have been an accidental pregnancy but the OP has said they were planning one so they should know.

The breeder may well not change their mind - many simply don't care, and if it has them running for the hills, so be it. They shouldn't be breeding - there are some much harder things to deal with when breeding than a few comments on a forum.

Besides, I always take the view that any reply is not just for the OP but will be viewed by many more who are just searching and many never join or post. So correct information is key, regardless of whether the OP likes it or not. If they want a nice, polite answer directed solely at them, then they should go and see a vet.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Was I rude in any way?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


I meant it as a general comment BUT you jump in with both feet on every thread about breeding and frankly I do find it rude.



rocco33 said:


> We know you don't think health tests are necessary but I get sick of people breeding without using them (and my breed too - I probably won't have commented otherwise). This might have been an accidental pregnancy but the OP has said they were planning one so they should know.
> 
> The breeder may well not change their mind - many simply don't care, and if it has them running for the hills, so be it. They shouldn't be breeding - there are some much harder things to deal with when breeding than a few comments on a forum.
> 
> Besides, I always take the view that any reply is not just for the OP but will be viewed by many more who are just searching and many never join or post. So correct information is key, regardless of whether the OP likes it or not. If they want a nice, polite answer directed solely at them, then they should go and see a vet.


Why are you so sure that I do not think health tests are a good idea. I have never said they are not - I have always said they do not happen. The majority of breeders do not do them and the majority of pet owners do not give a damn about them. That is not the same thing at all as saying I do not think they are a good idea.

I do think it is boring in the extreme and rude to jump in on every breeding thread and have a go about them though.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I meant it as a general comment BUT you jump in with both feet on every thread about breeding and frankly I do find it rude.
> 
> *Why are you so sure that I do not think health tests are a good idea. I have never said they are not* - I have always said they do not happen. The majority of breeders do not do them and the majority of pet owners do not give a damn about them. That is not the same thing at all as saying I do not think they are a good idea.
> 
> I do think it is boring in the extreme and rude to jump in on every breeding thread and have a go about them though.


I seem to remember you saying exactly that although it was a long time ago - when you mentioned the litters you bred and had no problems with them. And yes, more recently you have simply said they don't happen.
Perhaps you've changed your mind.

However, if you find it boring then that's your prerogative, however, it is a public forum and posters are free to post and opinion or advice as they see fit.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

kodakkuki said:


> *oh yes, because every comment is about yourself.
> *
> i was speaking in general- about the approach *some* people have on *some* forums...
> is that enough explanation for my one comment on people getting a bit antsy?


Wow.

I twice apologised to you for misunderstanding your post.

And THIS is the response you give?

Nice...


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I meant it as a general comment* BUT you jump in with both feet on every thread about breeding and frankly I do find it rude.
> *
> 
> Why are you so sure that I do not think health tests are a good idea. I have never said they are not - I have always said they do not happen. The majority of breeders do not do them and the majority of pet owners do not give a damn about them. That is not the same thing at all as saying I do not think they are a good idea.
> ...


Please show where I 'jump in on every thread' on breeding - go on.

You can't, because I don't.

And how it can possibly be 'rude' to promote good standards on a dog lovers forum is beyond me.

But since you do find my posts so terribly 'boring', there is an easy solution - put me on 'ignore'. Then you won't have to be so awfully offended by for instance my original TWO LINE post on this thread!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Wow.
> 
> I twice apologised to you for misunderstanding your post.
> 
> ...


I think you both replied at the same time, so the apologies weren't there when the response was submitted.

You are both after the same thing, responsible breeding, there's enough rubbish goes on


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think you both replied at the same time, so the apologies weren't there when the response was submitted.
> 
> You are both after the same thing, responsible breeding, there's enough rubbish goes on


yes,
i was typing at the same time- got a bit snappy and over-reacted to what i saw as an over-reaction. i'd actually thought i went back and deleted that- i am sincerely sorry OBAYL. 
truce? :blush:

(and actually- i am considering stealing your signature idea- only my breed isn't Currently tested!)


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

SLEEPING LION - voice of sanity and reason


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

Wow I have only just seen all this. 

No she hasn't been hip scored or had eye tests because it wasn't a planned breeding I would have done it if it were. 

Yes she went to the vets late in her pregnancy you couldn't even tell she was pregnant it was a routine health check up and I commented to the vet how she seems hungry all of a sudden. 
I took her to the vets yesterday who checked her over said she was fine but he completely backtracked & said he does not know how far gone she was which is very helpful!!! His advice was to leave her to it as long as she's eating and doesn't seem to be in distress. 

There is someone in the house near enough 24 hours a day with her so it's unlikely she would be alone. 

To answer the earlier comment yes she is old enough and no he isn't massively bigger compared to her. He has had a litter before which were all perfectly healthy. His hip score & eyes were fine.


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

kodakkuki said:


> yup! i mean, some of the breed specific ones!?! you need skin of steel to not be offended/scared on some of them!
> 
> but, throwing tantrums when the milk is already spilled (see what i did there :ihih: ) is a bit counter productive at times!
> *and i will admit if i'm having a bad day, telling someone they're completely wrong is sometimes the best feeling, but completely the wrong attitude on such a subject!
> ...


She's doing fine sleeping a lot wants loads of attention. Plus she might as well be eating cash the amount of food she's gone through suppose she's catching up for the past few weeks I haven't known


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

As an aside from your bitches care now, and for the pups, you will need to be completely honest with puppy buyers, otherwise you may leave yourself open to being sued if the pups develop a condition that could have been tested for. Have a look at the link I posted on an earlier page, and try to ensure you explain the main conditions, hips, elbows, bva eye cert, gpra and cnm (possibly eic as well) to puppy buyers. 

It might also be worth your while, if you don't particularly want the legwork of finding good homes, letting a rescue take them and find good homes. There is a saturation of accidental and not so accidental litters out there, making it difficult to find good homes. Unless you've done the health tests and ensured you've bred for temperament etc, the sort of people who will ask to go on your waiting list may not be able to offer the best of homes. 

As for your girl, as you don't know how far she's gone, you're going to have to play it by ear. Do you not know when she was in season at all? No idea of when she might have been receptive?? 

You may get some replies that seem quite hard, but from the perspective of those who help with rescue, which is inundated, and also manage to keep entire bitches and dogs apart on many occasions, these sort of threads can come across as a little flippant. Some people really aren't aware of the risk the bitch is put through taking a litter, I hope your girl comes through ok, and the pups, but your priority right now should be getting her through this.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I seem to remember you saying exactly that although it was a long time ago - when you mentioned the litters you bred and had no problems with them. And yes, more recently you have simply said they don't happen.
> Perhaps you've changed your mind.
> 
> However, if you find it boring then that's your prerogative, however, it is a public forum and posters are free to post and opinion or advice as they see fit.


I was breeding BEFORE health tests were an issue  In fact I did get my bitch checked for PRA when there was a voluntary testing day put on by the breed society. A lot of clubs put on testing days and a lot of breeders had very red faces but most made excuses why it did not matter that their bitch or dog was affected. I am not sure when the BVA hip scheme started but I know it was going vaguely at least in the early 70s. Again I remember someone bringing a GSD bitch to be xrayed. The hips were so atrocious that the vet did not bother sending them off but the owner said it was ok because bitches could not pass it on.

I have bred one bitch without any health tests. I am happy to admit to that but
I think you will find it more likely I have said I have bought puppies from non health tested litters - which I have as have most pet owners. Candy's mother has been PRA tested since her first litter and was a carrier. I have no idea whether her father was tested so with that knowledge I would not breed from her. Well I was not planning to anyway and certainly would not with all the (non genetic) health problems she has.

My point is and always has been that it is the minority that health test and the very minority of puppy buyers that give a damn so going on and on at everyone that mentions breeding or has an in whelp bitch is really really annoying.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I was breeding BEFORE health tests were an issue  In fact I did get my bitch checked for PRA when there was a voluntary testing day put on by the breed society. A lot of clubs put on testing days and a lot of breeders had very red faces but most made excuses why it did not matter that their bitch or dog was affected. I am not sure when the BVA hip scheme started but I know it was going vaguely at least in the early 70s. Again I remember someone bringing a GSD bitch to be xrayed. The hips were so atrocious that the vet did not bother sending them off but the owner said it was ok because bitches could not pass it on.
> 
> I have bred one bitch without any health tests. I am happy to admit to that but
> I think you will find it more likely I have said I have bought puppies from non health tested litters - which I have as have most pet owners. Candy's mother has been PRA tested since her first litter and was a carrier. I have no idea whether her father was tested so with that knowledge I would not breed from her. Well I was not planning to anyway and certainly would not with all the (non genetic) health problems she has.
> ...


So just because it annoys you, and people don't know, then people should never mention it? I for one am glad there are people out there who care so passionately about their breed, and dogs in general, if people going on and on and on about health tests makes one breeder or one potential puppy owner health test or only look for breeders who health test I'll be happy, you don't know what you don't know, most people don't give a damn as you put it because they don't know the long term repercussions of not having health tests in place! I hope people do keep going on and on and on whether it annoys you or not gives me faith that there are people out there who do and always will put the welfare of dogs first! Not all people just want the cheapest pup out there, many do care about health test when informed about them, just because you don't give damn about them doesn't mean people shouldn't try to educate.. If it stop one puppy one bitch one puppy owner from suffering it's well worth annoying you.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Djrkenyon said:


> She's doing fine sleeping a lot wants loads of attention. Plus she might as well be eating cash the amount of food she's gone through suppose she's catching up for the past few weeks I haven't known


Hi!

I suppose one way to somewhat mitigate the absent health tests for your girl would be to request the PRA right test now ( non-invasive, blood test or, less reliable, cheek swab). Discuss it with your vet.

As to hips & elbows, there isn't anything that can be done whilst she is expecting and during nursing. But consider offering your puppy buyers that you'll inform them as soon as she has had them. Don't do the radiographs until 3 months after she has given birth or the readings may be incorrect.

Not ideal, but then sometimes life isn't.

Another option worth exploring may be to have her eyes examined at by a veterinary opthalmologist. The link below will give you details of your nearest one :
Vet Index Online Directory - Ophthalmology Referrals

All the best and wishing you & your girl an uneventful, safe delivery and healthy pups


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I've had dogs most of my life and during that time how or where you buy a pup has changed, notably since the invention of the Internet.
When I was in my late teens I bought my first dog, as opposed to the family dog bought by my parents. I didn't know about the kennel Club or breed clubs, just that if I looked in the local papers there were puppies advertised for sale. My only 'dog book' was the Observer book of dog breeds, bought second hand at a jumble sale years ago. I really liked the look of the Irish Setter and was greatly pleased to find a litter advertised in the paper. I had no idea about any health test requirements, didn't even think about it. My assumption was that this was a pedigree dog and was bound to be healthy.
Does this assumption still continue amongst newbies to dogs? No idea, maybe I was just an innocent naive country girl and this was way back in the early 70's.
The ease of which puppies for sale, good and bad, can be found via the Internet has altered things. Do newbies to dogs even think that any health test are required let alone google for them? Imagine it. Someone thinks they would like a dog and they latch onto a particular breed because some celeb on the telly has one. So they Google xxxxxxx puppies for sale and up pops loads of ads usually headed by some of the more, shall we say, less choosy selling websites. Do they go any further? Do they even consider that you need to research that breed to find out pros and cons? Do they even appreciate that they might be going to a BYB not a an ethical breeder? I honestly don't know, I can only see things from my point of view and the values I was brought up with?

And my point of this long screed?

Yes I do think that pointing out frequently that health tests must be done when breeding dogs or, when buying a puppy, check that the parents are health tested for whatever the requirement is in the breed, is necessary. Threads come and go in a forum. If no one ever mentioned it again, then newbies night never know, ok a bit sweeping, but perhaps you can see what I getting at. Berating somebody for raising the subject is rather harsh, perhaps the wording could have been 'kinder', but the very nature of not being able to say things face to face can make some statements rather bald.


Hope I haven't upset anyone with this as it is certainly not my intention.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Happily I couldn't care less what BLITZ thinks of my posts. Anyone who deems it 'rude' to reference health tests has got their priorities the wrong way round.

BLITZ please do put me on 'ignore' - I'll be more than happy to return the favour.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Siskin said:


> I've had dogs most of my life and during that time how or where you buy a pup has changed, notably since the invention of the Internet.
> When I was in my late teens I bought my first dog, as opposed to the family dog bought by my parents. I didn't know about the kennel Club or breed clubs, just that if I looked in the local papers there were puppies advertised for sale. My only 'dog book' was the Observer book of dog breeds, bought second hand at a jumble sale years ago. I really liked the look of the Irish Setter and was greatly pleased to find a litter advertised in the paper. I had no idea about any health test requirements, didn't even think about it. My assumption was that this was a pedigree dog and was bound to be healthy.
> Does this assumption still continue amongst newbies to dogs? No idea, maybe I was just an innocent naive country girl and this was way back in the early 70's.
> The ease of which puppies for sale, good and bad, can be found via the Internet has altered things. Do newbies to dogs even think that any health test are required let alone google for them? Imagine it. Someone thinks they would like a dog and they latch onto a particular breed because some celeb on the telly has one. So they Google xxxxxxx puppies for sale and up pops loads of ads usually headed by some of the more, shall we say, less choosy selling websites. Do they go any further? Do they even consider that you need to research that breed to find out pros and cons? Do they even appreciate that they might be going to a BYB not a an ethical breeder? I honestly don't know, I can only see things from my point of view and the values I was brought up with?
> ...


You raise excellent points, siskin.

Educating new owners, wannabe owners, existing breeders and those contemplating breeding is an important and worthwhile mission.

And having dedication to and passion for this subject is great.

But denigrating fanaticism and becoming a self elected breeding police warden isn't.

The latter helps no one, least of all the OP asking for info and help for the situation she is already in. Socking it to her is a bit like telling your tearful pregnant teenage daughter that she was an irresponsible sl*t. Not merely indescribably cruel and heartless but of no practical use.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You raise excellent points, siskin.
> 
> Educating new owners, wannabe owners, existing breeders and those contemplating breeding is an important and worthwhile mission.
> 
> ...


Nobody did that.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Nobody did that.


I beg to differ...and I don't mean you.

But what possible good could come from telling an owner of a bitch shortly due to give birth that said bitch should have had health tests? She knew that already, and in any event, that ship had sailed.

What is she supposed to do now that is HAS happened? Drown herself in shame? Drown the litter because they come from a breeder of "ill repute"?

On the extensive list of heinous crimes committed in this world - be that towards humans or animals - having an "oops" litter out of 2 dogs from the same breed, and the sire having been screened, must not even feature on the radar, surely.

Is it ideal? No. Recommended? No. But it happens.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You raise excellent points, siskin.
> 
> Educating new owners, wannabe owners, existing breeders and those contemplating breeding is an important and worthwhile mission.
> 
> ...


That hasn't been the case. Besides, this is someone who, by their own admission, was planning on a litter with this bitch and the dog has already been used at stud. Hardly a naïve newcomer to breeding!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I beg to differ...and I don't mean you.
> 
> *But what possible good could come from telling an owner of a bitch shortly due to give birth that said bitch should have had health tests? She knew that already, and in any event, that ship had sailed.*
> 
> ...


There are OTHER people also reading.

When some of us mention health tests it is for these other readers.

As for your last paragraph, where you say that 'having an oops litter must not even feature on the radar' of crimes - what???? So because it's not the worst thing to ever happen, we should not say a word?????

To reiterate: *if WE as dog lovers do not speak out, who the hell will *


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You raise excellent points, siskin.
> 
> Educating new owners, wannabe owners, existing breeders and those contemplating breeding is an important and worthwhile mission.
> 
> ...


And people saying nothing does not do dogs any good!!!

Nothing like telling your teenager anything, grow up! What's cruel and heartless is bitches suffering, and pups suffering because don't people health test, don't spay and neuter or keep a dog and bitch apart! 1000's manage to do it? What's cruel and heartless is watching a young dog suffer with HD, ED or losing it's sight!

Glad there are "self elected breeding police" out there, good to know some people have animal welfare at heart! Least breeders know what they should be doing, and should also advise puppy owners of the implications!


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> As an aside from your bitches care now, and for the pups, you will need to be completely honest with puppy buyers, otherwise you may leave yourself open to being sued if the pups develop a condition that could have been tested for. Have a look at the link I posted on an earlier page, and try to ensure you explain the main conditions, hips, elbows, bva eye cert, gpra and cnm (possibly eic as well) to puppy buyers.
> 
> It might also be worth your while, if you don't particularly want the legwork of finding good homes, letting a rescue take them and find good homes. There is a saturation of accidental and not so accidental litters out there, making it difficult to find good homes. Unless you've done the health tests and ensured you've bred for temperament etc, the sort of people who will ask to go on your waiting list may not be able to offer the best of homes.
> 
> ...


I noticed her season around the start of December but she could have been in for a few days by then she isn't in the house so is only seen when taken for walks or when someone goes to play with her. 
She was in a extra large cage until around the end of December so who knows when they tied at latest it is the 8/9 December as her season finished on the 12th

As for the puppies they will be leaving at 9/10 weeks fully vaccinated and wormed and I am selling people that I know already have buyers for the 5 I know she's carrying and if it came to being unable to sell them I would rather give them to friends who I know want a dog but not to splash the money out on one there is enough dogs that already are looking for homes without adding puppies to the equation the puppies are not a major concern if I am honest currently she is the main priority that she is well.

She's still not showing signs of wanting to drop her nipples have gone huge can see puppies moving around sometimes & she has clear discharge but temp is still 101 she's eating fine and apart from being lazy is her usual self.

Hopefully it will all go smoothly but if needed I am prepared to pay out the money to ensure she's fine. I have no intention of making a profit off the litter as long as she's ok and my bank breaks near enough even in the end I'm fine with that.

Thanks for the comments was expecting to get some abuse for the accidental pregnancy but there is nothing hear that is offensive or pointless health tests are a valid thing to do and if she were to have another litter they will be done.

Hopefully I will have some little poo machines by the weeks end


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Djrkenyon said:


> I noticed her season around the start of December but she could have been in for a few days by then she isn't in the house so is only seen when taken for walks or when someone goes to play with her.
> She was in a extra large cage until around the end of December so who knows when they tied at latest it is the 8/9 December as her season finished on the 12th
> 
> As for the puppies they will be leaving at 9/10 weeks fully vaccinated and wormed and I am selling people that I know already have buyers for the 5 I know she's carrying and if it came to being unable to sell them I would rather give them to friends who I know want a dog but not to splash the money out on one there is enough dogs that already are looking for homes without adding puppies to the equation the puppies are not a major concern if I am honest currently she is the main priority that she is well.
> ...


I have heard of dogs being able to mate and tie through the bars of crates unfortunately. If her season started at the beginning of December, it probably finished at the end of December, they are *usually* fertile when the bleeding stops but it can be before, or a couple of weeks later, no one bitch is the same unfortunately.

I would think twice about pups being fully vaccinated by 9/10 weeks, if you read on the WSAVA website, they don't recommend vaccination that early, as the natural immunity from Mum can interfere with the vaccination. It's perfectly fine to allow pups to go to new homes and for new owners to arrange vaccination once they've had chance to settle in. My preference would be to have them vet checked to ensure they haven't got things like umbilical hernias, and microchipped.

Some breeders switch to puppy food for their bitch during the latter stages of pregnancy, I raw feed, so just upped her feeding.

Just make sure you've got sufficient funds on standby, my girl needed an emergency c-section, which was £1500 on it's own. In total I was over £3k down for one litter.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Djrkenyon said:


> I noticed her season around the start of December but she could have been in for a few days by then she isn't in the house so is only seen when taken for walks or when someone goes to play with her.
> She was in a extra large cage until around the end of December so who knows when they tied at latest it is the 8/9 December as her season finished on the 12th
> 
> As for the puppies they will be leaving at 9/10 weeks fully vaccinated and wormed and I am selling people that I know already have buyers for the 5 I know she's carrying and if it came to being unable to sell them I would rather give them to friends who I know want a dog but not to splash the money out on one there is enough dogs that already are looking for homes without adding puppies to the equation the puppies are not a major concern if I am honest currently she is the main priority that she is well.
> ...


So you dogs are kept outside in cages? (I'm assuming in some sort of outhouse/shed rather than actually outside). Are you planning to bring her in the house for the whelping? If so she should be in now.

Well done for finding 5 homes wanting pups so quickly!


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> So you dogs are kept outside in cages? (I'm assuming in some sort of outhouse/shed rather than actually outside). Are you planning to bring her in the house for the whelping? If so she should be in now.
> 
> Well done for finding 5 homes wanting pups so quickly!


Yeah I have also read that about breeding through bars since suppose it's natural for them to want to breed 
We don't let it stop us so why would they.

She has had puppy food for the past two weeks seems to be doing the job her boobs are filling nicely.

Both my dogs were fully vaccinated by ten weeks most vets recommend first injection at 8 weeks then one two weeks later at 10 weeks so the dog can go outside. I will start to wean them at 4 weeks as was done with my eldest dog when he was a pup less demanding on the mother and helps with when the puppies leave being in a routine toilet and feeding wise he was fully house trained at 5 months

It's not actually outside we have a utility room built as an extension off the kitchen with a separating door so it's basically the washer/ dog room there is a radiator In there but she's in the kitchen now with a whelping box sectioned off as to separate her from the male she's been there since the vet visit so is well used to it.

It wasn't actually that hard my dogs are very popular with family and friends because of how trained and there temperament and the way they act with kids pretty standard for Labradors really  
They are both beautiful dogs if I do say so myself


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> So you dogs are kept outside in cages? (I'm assuming in some sort of outhouse/shed rather than actually outside). Are you planning to bring her in the house for the whelping? * If so she should be in now. *
> 
> Well done for finding 5 homes wanting pups so quickly!


i'd assume she is? as they have already said she is being monitored almost 24 hrs a day- and i'd imagine that's Very difficult if the bitch is outside in a shed.

did her Season stop on the 12th or did the bleeding stop on the 12th?

i wouldn't bank on breaking even either tbh, especially if you plan on ftgh-ing some of the pups- with no major issues with my kukis litter we were still about £100 down after selling the boys (i kept the only girl) but that's including pre-whelp care and food etc.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Djrkenyon said:


> Yeah I have also read that about breeding through bars since suppose it's natural for them to want to breed
> We don't let it stop us so why would they.
> 
> She has had puppy food for the past two weeks seems to be doing the job her boobs are filling nicely.
> ...


just be aware that when the pups reach the age that they are ready to go (and getting on like typical pups) that list may well decrease- 99% of waiting lists do once the pups are here!
i've had plenty of people i know wanting my pups, but for one reason or another only one family friend ended up getting one- the others either showed they weren't ready for a pup or not suitable. and i'll tell you now, me deciding that a pup wasn't suited for a particular person didn't make me popular!!! but that's because i match pups to suitable homes, rather than the person choosing the prettiest pup.

so just make sure they're prepared for a couple of years of puppy terror- especially since it's all very fast from finding out shes pregnant to them wanting a pup NOW...


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

kodakkuki said:


> just be aware that when the pups reach the age that they are ready to go (and getting on like typical pups) that list may well decrease- 99% of waiting lists do once the pups are here!
> i've had plenty of people i know wanting my pups, but for one reason or another only one family friend ended up getting one- the others either showed they weren't ready for a pup or not suitable. and i'll tell you now, me deciding that a pup wasn't suited for a particular person didn't make me popular!!! but that's because i match pups to suitable homes, rather than the person choosing the prettiest pup.
> 
> so just make sure they're prepared for a couple of years of puppy terror- especially since it's all very fast from finding out shes pregnant to them wanting a pup NOW...


Yeah I don't expect them to all stick to what they have said once they are born and around three weeks I'm going to ask people who are interested to leave a £50 deposit so it ties them down more than just saying yeah I will have one

Even if I end up with them for a while before I sell them don't really mind as long as it's no later than 14 weeks old who doesn't love puppies would keep them all if I had the space and time!

Just a quick question does the bitchs temp always drop or can they just go into labour? Her temps been 99.5-100.1 up and down for the last few days where it's always been about 100.7/100.9?

She's currently 99.4 which is lowest it's been but she's acting normal can see pups having a little dance in her ribs though which is rather cute 

Also to answer earlier question she stopped bleeding on the 12th it went really pale pinky then stopped completely and the male showed zero interest in her


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

kodakkuki said:


> just be aware that when the pups reach the age that they are ready to go (and getting on like typical pups) that list may well decrease- 99% of waiting lists do once the pups are here!
> i've had plenty of people i know wanting my pups, but for one reason or another only one family friend ended up getting one- the others either showed they weren't ready for a pup or not suitable. and i'll tell you now, me deciding that a pup wasn't suited for a particular person didn't make me popular!!! but that's because i match pups to suitable homes, rather than the person choosing the prettiest pup.
> 
> so just make sure they're prepared for a couple of years of puppy terror- especially since it's all very fast from finding out shes pregnant to them wanting a pup NOW...


Well it finally happened three weeks later. Her temp dropped to 99.5 at 11pm on the 6th and stayed there until 10:30pm on the 7th when her contractions started. The first puppy presented at 10:37. 8 puppies later the labour finished at 4:58am on the 8th. Sadly lost one of the pups as it was born within the main placenta which is unusual. Mother and puppies doing fine glad its over and done with!


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_I'm going to ask people who are interested to leave a £50 deposit so it ties them down more than just saying yeah I will have one _

Do you REALLY want to tie them to having a puppy if they don't want one? I don't take deposits because that's exactly what I don't want - I'd rather find the right home for my puppies than force someone to take them if it's not right for them.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Djrkenyon said:


> Yeah I don't expect them to all stick to what they have said once they are born and around three weeks I'm going to ask people who are interested to leave a* £50 deposit so it ties them down more than just saying yeah I will have one *
> 
> Even if I end up with them for a while before *I sell them don't really mind as long as it's no later than 14 weeks old* who doesn't love puppies would keep them all if I had the space and time!
> 
> ...


Quite a few breeders near me have litters at 14-24weeks old not selling... (just look at the adverts online) That's your job if you breed to keep them, so what happens if you have 4 left over at 20weeks old? 

Sounds a bit young for deposits on pups, is that age normal? I didn't think they could be viewed until they were older? what do you mean by 'ties them down' 

Cant really see if you have replied have the parents been hip / elbow scored and eye tested? Is that the only tests that labs need?


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Djrkenyon said:


> Even if I end up with them for a while before I sell them don't really mind as long as it's no later than 14 weeks old


What happens if you still have them at 14 weeks old then?

There are two pups from the litter my latest is from who are still with their breeders and they'll be 14 weeks old next week. They also had loads of interest......

I also wouldn't be taking deposits to "tie people down". If they change their mind in the interim they may well take the pup and sell it on god knows where rather than lose their £50.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> Quite a few breeders near me have litters at 14-24weeks old not selling... (just look at the adverts online) That's your job if you breed to keep them, so what happens if you have 4 left over at 20weeks old?
> 
> Sounds a bit young for deposits on pups, is that age normal? I didn't think they could be viewed until they were older? what do you mean by 'ties them down'
> 
> Cant really see if you have replied have the parents been hip / elbow scored and eye tested? *Is that the only tests that labs need*?


Hips, Elbows, Eyes, PRA are essential imo. I'd like to see CNM too personally.


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

Djrkenyon said:


> Well it finally happened three weeks later. Her temp dropped to 99.5 at 11pm on the 6th and stayed there until 10:30pm on the 7th when her contractions started. The first puppy presented at 10:37. 8 puppies later the labour finished at 4:58am on the 8th. Sadly lost one of the pups as it was born within the main placenta which is unusual. Mother and puppies doing fine glad its over and done with!


Have just read this thread through, glad to hear mum and puppies are ok, and sorry to hear one died. Hope all goes well, good luck


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> What happens if you still have them at 14 weeks old then?
> 
> There are two pups from the litter my latest is from who are still with their breeders and they'll be 14 weeks old next week. They also had loads of interest......
> 
> I also wouldn't be taking deposits to "tie people down". If they change their mind in the interim they may well take the pup and sell it on god knows where rather than lose their £50.


Nothing happens if I still have them at 14 weeks if I still have all of them then so be it I am looking to find them good homes not just the next available thing. They are hear through a mistake on my part so I will have them for as long as neccisary. I am not stupid as to think they are all going to go instantly I am looking to home them with people I know or friends of friends so I can keep track of them ideally.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Djrkenyon said:


> Yeah I don't expect them to all stick to what they have said once they are born and around three weeks I'm going to ask people who are interested to leave a £50 deposit so it ties them down more than just saying yeah I will have one
> 
> Even if I end up with them for a while before I sell them *don't really mind as long as it's no later than 14 weeks old* who doesn't love puppies would keep them all if I had the space and time!
> 
> ...





Djrkenyon said:


> *Nothing happens if I still have them at 14 weeks if I still have all of them then so be it I am looking to find them good homes not just the next available thing.* They are hear through a mistake on my part so I will have them for as long as neccisary. I am not stupid as to think they are all going to go instantly I am looking to home them with people I know or friends of friends so I can keep track of them ideally.


I've been following this thread with interest. TBH I know this is an oops litter and I'm sure it's not intentional, but there's an undercurrent to some of your posts which suggests you're in this for the money,  especially mentioning a deposit to "tie potential buyers down" and the comment about still having them at 14wks.

Then you contradict yourself in the 2nd post by saying you're only looking to rehome them to people you know and/or friends of friends. What if, by their personal association with you, these friends/friends of friends are expecting the pups for free? You mention a deposit to them and suddenly they lose interest? What happens to the pups then? The forum can give you lots of advice about finding the right, hopefully lifelong homes for your pups, and the importance of giving the buyers a lifelong guarantee that you'll take back any dog bred by you breed so that, should the new owner find themselves in a position where they can't keep the pups, none of your babies will end up in rescue.

Please don't take any of this as a personal affront. I know very little about dog breeding and I'm of the firm decision to leave it to the experts. My own dogs are both neutered. All I'm suggesting is, it's a good idea to proofread through your own posts, or, if possible, get someone else to proofread them for you, before clicking send - try reading them through the eyes of the reader. If someone else had written either of the quotes above, what would _your _first impression be (yes, I practice what I preach. I proofread my own posts that many times I'm surprised I ever click Submit  ... And then I read them back again once they're Live, and usually end up editing them again ).

I'm sorry to hear you lost one of the pups, but I hope mum and pups continue to thrive.


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> I've been following this thread with interest. TBH I know this is an oops litter and I'm sure it's not intentional, but there's an undercurrent to some of your posts which suggests you're in this for the money,  especially mentioning a deposit to "tie potential buyers down" and the comment about still having them at 14wks.
> 
> Then you contradict yourself in the 2nd post by saying you're only looking to rehome them to people you know and/or friends of friends. What if, by their personal association with you, these friends/friends of friends are expecting the pups for free? You mention a deposit to them and suddenly they lose interest? What happens to the pups then? The forum can give you lots of advice about finding the right, hopefully lifelong homes for your pups, and the importance of giving the buyers a lifelong guarantee that you'll take back any dog bred by you breed so that, should the new owner find themselves in a position where they can't keep the pups, none of your babies will end up in rescue.
> 
> ...


Im not going to bother pointing out everything in your post that is highly irritating. I will say though if people are living in a deluded world where they think that I am going to pay just short of £2000 out and then give away the puppies then they need massive reality check. Yes money is a issue with selling them i would like to break even and yes I want them all to be sold i currently have three of them sold with people that I know & there is no need to take a deposit off them as i know them. Deposits would be for third parties if needed. At the same time as that being said I am hardly trying to make a profit they are leaving with 3kg of eukanuba puppy food each at £18 a bag & fully vaccinated wormed and micro-chipped so im hardly cutting costs. Im not having a moan at you but dont be so judgemental on a situation that you know nothing about & as you said have no experience of. Im new to this myself and could do without snide remarks at the end of the day all that matters is the welfare of the puppies


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Djrkenyon said:


> Im not going to bother pointing out everything in your post that is highly irritating. I will say though if people are living in a deluded world where they think that I am going to pay just short of £2000 out and then give away the puppies then they need massive reality check. Yes money is a issue with selling them i would like to break even and yes I want them all to be sold i currently have three of them sold with people that I know & there is no need to take a deposit off them as i know them. Deposits would be for third parties if needed. At the same time as that being said I am hardly trying to make a profit they are leaving with 3kg of eukanuba puppy food each at £18 a bag & fully vaccinated wormed and micro-chipped so im hardly cutting costs. Im not having a moan at you but dont be so judgemental on a situation that you know nothing about & as you said have no experience of. Im new to this myself and could do without snide remarks at the end of the day all that matters is the welfare of the puppies


Yes, because your priority should be ensuring pups that YOU have chosen to bring into this world go to good homes for life, not making back any cash you have spent. Money should be the last thing on your mind, ensuring bitch and pups are healthy, and get the homes they deserve, and impressing on owners the need to spay/neuter if they're unable to ensure they also don't have any accidents.

That may sound hard, but the simple fact is you allowed your bitch to become pregnant, and risked her life by allowing her to go full term. So what if you had to spend money on vets bills, that's because of your choices, your girl owes you nothing, she didn't make any of those decisions.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Djrkenyon said:


> Im not going to bother pointing out everything in your post that is highly irritating. I will say though if people are living in a deluded world where they think that I am going to pay just short of £2000 out and then give away the puppies then they need massive reality check. Yes money is a issue with selling them i would like to break even and yes I want them all to be sold i currently have three of them sold with people that I know & there is no need to take a deposit off them as i know them. Deposits would be for third parties if needed. At the same time as that being said I am hardly trying to make a profit they are leaving with 3kg of eukanuba puppy food each at £18 a bag & fully vaccinated wormed and micro-chipped so im hardly cutting costs. Im not having a moan at you but dont be so judgemental on a situation that you know nothing about & as you said have no experience of. Im new to this myself and could do without snide remarks at the end of the day all that matters is the welfare of the puppies


yes, that is what matters, but you posted on a public forum- a forum full of people who are passionate about animal welfare, many of whom work within the rescue systems. there was nothing i read as snide in her comment, i actually read it as quite a compassionate and helpful post.
* I will say though if people are living in a deluded world where they think that I am going to pay just short of £2000 out and then give away the puppies then they need massive reality check. * not so deluded- a friend of mine adopted an already pregnant rottie, she had 9 pups and he sold them for £100 each to ensure they weren't being taken on a whim. he lost money- lots of it, he knew he would, but ensuring good homes was more important to him than breaking even; when he adopted her she was already 5 weeks gone, he had no option to terminate before he realized the pounds mistake.

honestly, if you so break even, see it as a blessing- my last litter i sold two pups for £450 each and i still lost money. that was an excellently planned and thought out litter (imo  ) 
so, here is a reality check for you- see yourself as damn lucky to break even- and please stop being rude to members trying to help you.

how old are you keeping them to? i'd thought the ideal time for labs to be homed was 7-8 weeks? bit young for full vaccination...


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, because your priority should be ensuring pups that YOU have chosen to bring into this world go to good homes for life, not making back any cash you have spent. Money should be the last thing on your mind, ensuring bitch and pups are healthy, and get the homes they deserve, and impressing on owners the need to spay/neuter if they're unable to ensure they also don't have any accidents.
> 
> That may sound hard, but the simple fact is you allowed your bitch to become pregnant, and risked her life by allowing her to go full term. *So what if you had to spend money on vets bills, that's because of your choices, your girl owes you nothing, she didn't make any of those decisions.*


This.

The OP rather talks as though he's doing these things as a favour to the dog and the new owners!

OP - nobody has been rude to you. People have been candid which is what you can expect on a public forum. Only one person is to blame if you lose money on this - YOU. You allowed the pregnancy to continue so don't now complain about what it costs.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Djrkenyon said:


> Yeah I don't expect them to all stick to what they have said once they are born and around three weeks I'm going to ask people who are interested to leave a £50 deposit so it ties them down more than just saying yeah I will have one
> 
> Even if I end up with them for a while before I sell them don't really mind as long as it's no later than 14 weeks old who doesn't love puppies would keep them all if I had the space and time!
> 
> ...


I find it worrying that you intend to charge a deposit on your pups to "tie people down". I only ever wanted or allowed my pups to go to homes where the people were keen and committed and basically couldn't wait to get their pup home.

You seem to be suggesting that if you charge a deposit, people will go ahead and take the pup, even if they have doubts, because it's preferable to losing their deposit.

Isn't it better and your responsibility to ensure your pups go to the very best possible homes rather than tying down reluctant buyers with an unrefundable deposit?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Djrkenyon said:


> Im not going to bother pointing out everything in your post that is highly irritating. I will say though if people are living in a deluded world where they think that I am going to pay just short of £2000 out and then give away the puppies then they need massive reality check. Yes money is a issue with selling them i would like to break even and yes I want them all to be sold i currently have three of them sold with people that I know & there is no need to take a deposit off them as i know them. Deposits would be for third parties if needed. At the same time as that being said I am hardly trying to make a profit they are leaving with 3kg of eukanuba puppy food each at £18 a bag & fully vaccinated wormed and micro-chipped so im hardly cutting costs. Im not having a moan at you but dont be so judgemental on a situation that you know nothing about & as you said have no experience of. *Im new to this myself *and could do without snide remarks at the end of the day all that matters is the welfare of the puppies


Really, so what were the other animals you sold on pets4homes?


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sweety said:


> I find it worrying that you intend to charge a deposit on your pups to "tie people down". I only ever wanted or allowed my pups to go to homes where the people were keen and committed and basically couldn't wait to get their pup home.
> 
> *You seem to be suggesting that if you charge a deposit, people will go ahead and take the pup, even if they have doubts, because it's preferable to losing their deposit.*
> 
> Isn't it better and your responsibility to ensure your pups go to the very best possible homes rather than tying down reluctant buyers with an unrefundable deposit?


that's why i stopped with deposits... i took them so people couldn't mess me about and to show they were serious about a pup (and it was recommended to me by a breed specific forum at one point) but they proved to be a bigger worry than anything else- i had people phone to say they wanted their deposit back as they found another pup ready to go that day and wanted their deposit then and there to use as part payment of their puppy farm pup (yes- i do know that for fact!  ) 
i genuinely didn't have a spare £50 sitting in my house- so told them they'd need to call the next day to get it or give me their details to transfer it to them- next thing i know they're on the phone threatening to get the flipping police involved! it was in writing that the deposit was non-refundable, i was refunding to be nice! :blink: pup got an awesome home after that though! 
and never again have we agreed to home a pup with people my rescue chi Dexter didn't immediately take to! he's my arseidar! (radar for ar$es- get it!  )
i did take Some deposits after then, but it was more so paying off the pup than an actual deposit... £50-100 every visit so when they came to collect their pup they hadn't a lump sum to pay...


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Djrkenyon said:


> Im not going to bother pointing out everything in your post that is highly irritating. I will say though if people are living in a deluded world where they think that I am going to pay just short of £2000 out and then give away the puppies then they need massive reality check. Yes money is a issue with selling them i would like to break even and yes I want them all to be sold i currently have three of them sold with people that I know & there is no need to take a deposit off them as i know them. Deposits would be for third parties if needed. At the same time as that being said I am hardly trying to make a profit they are leaving with 3kg of eukanuba puppy food each at £18 a bag & fully vaccinated wormed and micro-chipped so im hardly cutting costs.* Im not having a moan at you but dont be so judgemental on a situation that you know nothing about & as you said have no experience of. Im new to this myself and could do without snide remarks at the end of the day all that matters is the welfare of the puppies*


New to your BITCH having puppies, perhaps, but your male has had them before, IIRC so you're not as "new to this" as you're trying to transmit. Or did you just let him do the deed and leave the bitch's owner with all the responsibility? :huh: You should have been as involved with your dog's previous litter as you are in this one.

Snide? I haven't even BEGUN to get snidey. Irritating - perhaps, but I suspect that's because the truth has a tendency to hurt and irritate unwilling listeners and readers.

Judgemental? _WHERE_?! If you want me to be judgemental, I'll be damn well judgemental - and believe you me, you will be under NO illusion as to my judgement.

And then you have the cheek to say that you're not having a moan? Give me a break 

Of course, there's nothing forcing you to take mine - or anyone else's advice, and no, I don't have any experience in breeding because I have 2 rescues and I'm a responsible owner looking out for MY dogs and their welfare. YOU allowed your dogs to mate. YOU brought these pups into the world and now YOU want ... what? :huh: A pat on the back and told "good job, mate"?! Sat down with a hug and told "there there, it'll be alright in the end?"

You pay lip service to being a responsible breeder and looking for "good" new homes for your pups and when I inform you that this forum can give you loads of advice on finding nice new homes, you call me irritating and judgemental? Well, from where I'm sitting, you're sounding more and more like a BYB and I already feel sorry for your pups.

Now THAT is snidey and judegmental.

I apolgoise to the rest of the forum who have to read this, especially those who have backed me up, but I'm not going to sit there and take that. Any other time, I might have (probably would have) walked away but I'm a little short on patience atm and forgot to take my chill pill today.


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

I Dont have the patience nor the time to sit here arguing for myself. You all have your opinions and that's fine. I do apologise if I am not in a position to decide to loose money on the litter if that happens in the end then so be it but as it stands there is a good chance to break even without the welfare of any animal being effected. 

No I wouldn't class myself as a back yard breeder because my dog got accidentally pregnant whilst being looked after. My dog is getting spayed after this. Only reason she wasn't in the first place is wanting to keep a puppy to continue the line which im sure many people will object too. 

Also just to answer the Vaccination question after the pups being at the vets yesterday for a check-up on their progress I discussed vaccination with the vet and she recommended the first injection at 7 weeks and the second at 9.

Thanks for the advice from the many people who have been helpful.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

If you're not in a position to take financial responsibility for choosing to breed from your dogs, then you shouldn't be breeding, simples.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

My heart always sinks when I read of someone breeding because "they want to keep one or two of the puppies" - especially with a breed that tends to large litters, like labs.

So you keep "one or two" - what happens to the other 6 or 8?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lostbear said:


> My heart always sinks when I read of someone breeding because "they want to keep one or two of the puppies" - especially with a breed that tends to large litters, like labs.
> 
> So you keep "one or two" - what happens to the other 6 or 8?


To be fair, the only reason I would breed on from one of my bitches is to keep a bitch pup back for me. That said, it would only be after relevant health tests, and ensuring they have a good conformation, and of course, temperament; and I wouldn't be hoping to make a profit, I'd be more concerned I had enough money in the bank in case of emergencies.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> To be fair, the only reason I would breed on from one of my bitches is to keep a bitch pup back for me. That said, it would only be after relevant health tests, and ensuring they have a good conformation, and of course, temperament; and I wouldn't be hoping to make a profit, *I'd be more concerned I had enough money in the bank in case of emergencies.*


Or have an empty credit card!
(Fingers crossed my application is successful- it's gonna be my puplet emergency card!!)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> Or have an empty credit card!
> (Fingers crossed my application is successful- it's gonna be my puplet emergency card!!)


I don't do credit cards, I just make sure the bank balance is pretty healthy in case I need it for emergencies, dog related or not


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> To be fair,* the only reason I would breed on from one of my bitches is to keep a bitch pup back for me.* That said, it would only be after relevant health tests, and ensuring they have a good conformation, and of course, temperament; and I wouldn't be hoping to make a profit, I'd be more concerned I had enough money in the bank in case of emergencies.


Agreed - but you know what you are doing, not just with breeding, but I imagine that you know your market (horrible expression to use when referring to a living creature, but that's what it is), and I also imagine that because your puppies are well-bred and raised, you have little problem in placing them in good, permanent homes. You have always struck me as having your dogs as your number 1 priority - I couldn't see you breeding unless you were as confident as it's possible to be that you could find loving homes for your pup pie.

There's a huge difference between that and "Oh,Lassie's such a lovely dog - it would be brilliant to have one of her puppies." and then go on to do a bit of indiscriminate breeding. I may be being unfair on the OP, but I didn't get the impression that they were was careful as they should be with their breeding 'programme'.


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

Just thought I would give a quick update, Puppies are all sold with no problems ready to go in April, vet says they are in perfect health mums doing great looks nice and healthy (picture with dad). Thankfully I have had a straight forward pregnancy/whelping. All puppies are following in dads footsteps and being gundogs by one. 


Thanks for any help :thumbsup:


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## Ann Elizabeth (May 12, 2013)

Djrkenyon said:


> Just thought I would give a quick update, Puppies are all sold with no problems ready to go in April, vet says they are in perfect health mums doing great looks nice and healthy (picture with dad). Thankfully I have had a straight forward pregnancy/whelping. All puppies are following in dads footsteps and being gundogs by one.
> 
> Thanks for any help :thumbsup:


Thanks for updating and posting the pictures, pleased that Mum and pups are all healthy


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Djrkenyon said:


> Just thought I would give a quick update, Puppies are all sold with no problems ready to go in April, vet says they are in perfect health mums doing great looks nice and healthy (picture with dad). Thankfully I have had a straight forward pregnancy/whelping. All puppies are following in dads footsteps and being gundogs by one.
> 
> Thanks for any help :thumbsup:


Is your bitch booked in for spaying yet?


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## Djrkenyon (Jan 24, 2014)

lostbear said:


> Is your bitch booked in for spaying yet?


Don't really see how that is relevant, I still do not understand why people have such an opinion against breeding dogs. There will ALWAYS be dogs in housing shelters & personally I would rather get a puppy and raise it myself rather than adopt a dog. People shouldn't make commitments they can't keep in the first place I was homeless last year & found a place for my dogs before myself.

But yes she is booked in to be spayed but that's purely because I'm keeping a male puppy


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Djrkenyon said:


> Don't really see how that is relevant,* I still do not understand why people have such an opinion against breeding dogs*. There will ALWAYS be dogs in housing shelters & personally I would rather get a puppy and raise it myself rather than adopt a dog. People shouldn't make commitments they can't keep in the first place I was homeless last year & found a place for my dogs before myself.
> 
> But yes she is booked in to be spayed but that's purely because I'm keeping a male puppy


People aren't against breeding, just irresponsible breeding.


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