# Is this cage big enough for TWO rabbits?



## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

So one of my rabbits is still young and I am going somewhere for (literally 1 night) winter break so they will be living separately until after I get her spayed. but they are living next to each other and have supervised free time. Anyway, I have an xpen and these are the measurements:
56" x 84" is that big enough for two rabbits? that are around 5-7lbs?/ medium sized rabbits?
there will also be a 48" second shelf. is that big enough? It seems roomy now I guess but I just don't want them to be cramped or anything. and they will get play time outside of their cage this is just when I am not home/ busy. The cage is 42" tall and I will make sure they can't jump out the top with the second level


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## LittlePaws AnimalRescue (Sep 11, 2012)

56in x 84in works out at 4.8ft x 7ft, I'd say that was big enough for a pair of rabbits.
And 42in tall is 3.6ft, the minimum for height is usually about 2ft so the rabbit can stand on their hind legs. So that's fine too.

That sounds quite big for a cage.
Is it an indoor crate or outside hutch?


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

4.8 x 7ft works out at 33.6 sq ft a pair of buns need 36 sq ft so it is actually a little bit too small, shelfs dont add into this equation, as a shelf doesnt class as more binky room

how many hours a day would they be penned up in it? it may just be easier to bunny proof a room for them


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

7ft length would give a bun space for a short sprint, and the height is good (I asssume it's a puppy pen?), but our local centre recommend 48/50 square foot for an average pair of buns. Could you extend the pen?


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

@ lil miss and summer sky, that is what I have heard before about buns needing 36 sq ft, I haven't heard of the 48/50 sq ft rule though? But I am concerned that they don't have enough room. 

They are house rabbits living in my room, they come out whenever I am home/ not busy. But my schedule is a bit whacky or (was), they will be caged up from possibly 10-11pm-4-5pm the next day. But don't bunnies sleep at night? And wake up at dawn/ dusk? Personally, I want them to have a cage it gives them a sense of security, often times both of my rabbits will retreat back to their own cages after playing for a while and then come back out to play again. There is no way I can extend the cage, I literally have 7" to get in and out of my closet door. i mean its not even 3sq ft that I am short of, will it actually make a difference?


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

and yes it is a puppy pen!


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

space is very important to rabbits and 18 hours is a very long time to keep a bun penned up for, rabbits are most active early morning and late night, at the times when they are penned up, the RWAF have recently suggested that the new mimimum requirement for a rabbit should be 6ft x 10ft (6 x 2 hutch with 6 x 8 run) which is 60sq ft rather then the 6ft x 6ft, 36 sq ft.

can you not just bunny proof your room? you could set a dog crate up as a base for them, but make it so the room is fully bunny safe so they never need to be shut in


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

At 10-12 my rabbits are actually not that active - they go back into their cages on their own and flop and sleep if they are out at a late time. Also, I heard that THAT minimum requirement is for rabbits that are never taken out to play... Maybe I am wrong, but that is just what I heard. The XL dog crate now, is way too small even for a base, I mean it's NOT small but I feel like it is even for a base as my rabbits retreat back to their cage for naps and such. 
I don't really think I can bunny proof my room so they are out all day. Are you sure that even though my cage is only 2.4 sq. ft. short of 36 sq. ft. that it is too small for 2 rabbits? I mean my rabbits don't really binky in their cage - they do when they get out but not so much in their cages. I mean they can, but they just don't. 

What is your set up like? Perhaps I could think of some new ideas


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2012)

lifeasweknowit said:


> At 10-12 my rabbits are actually not that active - they go back into their cages on their own and flop and sleep if they are out at a late time. Also, I heard that THAT minimum requirement is for rabbits that are never taken out to play... Maybe I am wrong, but that is just what I heard. The XL dog crate now, is way too small even for a base, I mean it's NOT small but I feel like it is even for a base as my rabbits retreat back to their cage for naps and such.
> I don't really think I can bunny proof my room so they are out all day. Are you sure that even though my cage is only 2.4 sq. ft. short of 36 sq. ft. that it is too small for 2 rabbits? I mean my rabbits don't really binky in their cage - they do when they get out but not so much in their cages. I mean they can, but they just don't.
> 
> What is your set up like? Perhaps I could think of some new ideas


Your rabbits won't binky in their cage as it isn't big enough 

I've bunny proofed a whole house (on all my pictures and videos you will see some sort of blocking off :lol

If you attach the puppy pen to the dog crate (leaving the door open) then that will be suitable for 2 rabbits indoor, obviously the more space the better (bunny O'clock is normally around 2am-4am and then again at around 5:30am through to 9-10am) so will be in their enclosure during their active times but with the pen attached they will have a binky space with toys and a sleeping place  This is what I did before I bunny proofed the house


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

When I actually find a place to live alone, I will think about bunny proofing the entire house, but for now I am unable to. Also, my older rabbit is more on the lazy side :001_tongue: my younger one does little zoomies in her cage but like I said, it is not big enough for her - XL dog crate. My older rabbit lives in the xpen I keep on talking about but It is only 4.6x4.6 feet for now, which is kind of small. But there is nothing I can do about it now. 

However, like I said they do get playtime outside and have adjusted, or so it seems, well to my schedule :001_tongue: I don't see a difference in making the cage 4.6x7 feet vs having the dog crate with an xpen attached to it? It's so hard to explain. Okay because the xpen now, is a square, when I bond them I was planning on turning it in to a rectangle, which is the size of the square + dog crate pretty much combined. It really just *looks* like it is bigger when it really is the same


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Although your accommodation isn't ideal, it is far bigger than many buns live in. The height is great for your buns to stretch up in. 

Bunny proofing a room is worth looking at - you can use a doggy type stair gate on the door, then open the puppy pen, closing it only for emergencies.


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

I can make the cage 4.6 x 9.3 feet big, HOWEVER their cage would have MORE empty space than in my room. So wouldn't it seem pointless to make their cage that big if the empty space in my room is smaller than what's in their cage? I WANT to have a cage for them, as nice as a bunny room would be, I know my rabbits and they often retreat back to their cage inside - on their own to sleep and whatever. Argh, I can't wait to move. What should I do?


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2012)

lifeasweknowit said:


> I can make the cage 4.6 x 9.3 feet big, HOWEVER their cage would have MORE empty space than in my room. So wouldn't it seem pointless to make their cage that big if the empty space in my room is smaller than what's in their cage?* I WANT to have a cage for them, as nice as a bunny room would be*, I know my rabbits and they often retreat back to their cage inside - on their own to sleep and whatever. Argh, I can't wait to move. What should I do?


You may want all you like, however the pet you have chosen needs as much space as possible.
I mean you wouldn't shut a cat in a cage would you?


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm wanting a cage because I know what they prefer/ feel more comfortable in, not because I want it for me :001_tongue: Why are you comparing cats to rabbits? How are they in any way alike? Cats and rabbits are totally different and I feel as if you made an invalid comparison.

Are you trying to tell me that a bunny proofed room is the _only_ acceptable/ ideal living quarters for a rabbit? Last time I checked there were plenty of people who house their rabbits in cages that are perfectly happy. Like I said, my schedule is pretty steady, but I have absolutely nothing planned for 2 weeks now, and also - there will be days when I am home early/ late, it does not _always_ mean they will be "penned up" for that long of a time - even though they are asleep for the majority of the time they are penned up


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Check out the RWAF thread -"not what it seems", or look on youtube at the following:-.

Käfigkatze - artgerechte Käfighaltung für Katzen / How to keep cats in cages 

Most cats I know tend to sleep much of the time, but nonetheless they need lots of space just to be cat. It's the same for buns, and the 2 are often compared for this reason, as people tend to understand cats needs better than those of a rabbit.

Your pen is nice and tall which allows buns to to stretch up. 

When they are out, do you see them doing bunny 500s and binkies? (sprints and jumps for joy), and dead bunny flops - these are signs of content or relaxed bunnies. Do they ever do the same in their pen?

There are lots of ways to provide accommodation for buns, so no, you don't have to bunny proof a whole room or house, but the buns that have total free range of a safe space are very lucky buns indeed. And an absolute pleasure to watch and live with.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2012)

lifeasweknowit said:


> I'm wanting a cage because I know what they prefer/ feel more comfortable in, not because I want it for me :001_tongue: Why are you comparing cats to rabbits? How are they in any way alike? Cats and rabbits are totally different and I feel as if you made an invalid comparison.
> 
> Are you trying to tell me that a bunny proofed room is the _only_ acceptable/ ideal living quarters for a rabbit? Last time I checked there were plenty of people who house their rabbits in cages that are perfectly happy. Like I said, my schedule is pretty steady, but I have absolutely nothing planned for 2 weeks now, and also - there will be days when I am home early/ late, it does not _always_ mean they will be "penned up" for that long of a time - even though they are asleep for the majority of the time they are penned up


I gave you a valid option other than a bunny proofed room, and unless you have learnt how to talk bunny I doubt very much they have told you that they would love to be kept in a cage 

There ARE plenty of people that still cage their rabbits but that does not make them right, rabbit welfare has come a long way over the years. It is no longer acceptable to cage a rabbit because we know what damage it does.
Incidentally I have a rabbit that has just been diagnosed with osteoarthritis due to being kept in a hutch that was too small 

I compared to cats because they both need space, just because a rabbit is smaller doesn't mean they need less space 

I really don't see why you can't just up the space or bunny proof a room, it's not that hard


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

I will look that up in youtube, also I am aware but cats are not crepuscular, or are they? My older one does not do zoomies or binkies when he is out very often, he does them sometimes but enjoys exploring his hidey house and wanting me to pet him. My younger one does both of those in her cage, which - I have said before is kind of small but she still does them. Both of them flop in and out of their cage. Most of the time my younger rabbit will only truly flop (by actually FLOPPING) is in her cage.

Very true :001_tongue: I don't know speak bunny nor will I ever, and possibly you won't ever also, so how exactly do you know that a free range bunny is happier? All rabbits are different, and I am pretty sure I know what is more comfortable for my rabbits - granted that all rabbits are different which they are :001_tongue: 
I feel for the rabbit that got osteoarthitis due to poor living conditions, but really the comparison to a small hutch (how small is small?) vs what I have in mind is really not a true comparison.  They are not "cramped" in a small cage all day, and get time out whenever I am home.

Like I said, it IS a complicated matter, due to how my BEDROOM is. My male rabbit aka the only one actually big enough to jump on my bed often pees on it, which is a hassle due to the fact I always have 2 duvets on my bed. I don't want to block it off because they enjoy going under my bed which is not a problem. I have tried blocking my bed area off however they will just bite at the bars and do nothing else. My room is VERY small. I could make the cage 4.6 x 9.3 feet but that would be strange because 1) it would have to cover the door, meaning I would have to step in the rabbit's cage to get out my room and anyone coming in would have to step in the rabbit's cage and come out. Which is dangerous. and 2) there would literally be more _open space_ INSIDE the cage than in my whole room.

Yesterday I was trying to see how I could extend the cage, and found that both of my rabbits were trying to get in their cage which was another reminder to me that they would rather have their cage than be fully free range without one.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Mine have plenty of space with their shed and run but they only binky when they are out in the garden, to me it doesn't mean they are unhappy with the accommodation size? 
I dont see a major problem with the size of your set up, especially with another 48" shelf to jump on and off and lay on x


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## Louiseandfriends (Aug 21, 2011)

Watch this video:

A Hutch is Not Enough - Rabbit Welfare Assocation & Fund (RWAF)


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

I read the video and the article. What you are not getting is that that article is for rabbits that do not get any playtime outside of their cage - or am I mistaken? Also, I feel as if that article is a bit hard set on the "facts" there are many many rabbits who enjoy being a single rabbit. Yes - it is NATURAL for them to live in groups in the wild and have a wide open space. However those are WILD rabbits and many domestic/ house rabbits prefer to be alone due to the fact that they are unable to bond with any other rabbit because they prefer to live alone for some reason. 

And that hutch is not even close to the size of my cage. They said a minimum should be 6' x 2' x 2 my cage is 7' x 4.6 x 3.6' (L x W x H), plus outside playtime. They also said a run should be available - my rabbits are indoor rabbits that get playtime outside. 

Please do not think that all rabbits are the same because a few articles online said so.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2012)

lifeasweknowit said:


> I read the video and the article. What you are not getting is that that article is for rabbits that do not get any playtime outside of their cage - or am I mistaken? Also, I feel as if that article is a bit hard set on the "facts" there are many many rabbits who enjoy being a single rabbit. Yes - it is NATURAL for them to live in groups in the wild and have a wide open space. However those are WILD rabbits and many domestic/ house rabbits prefer to be alone due to the fact that they are unable to bond with any other rabbit because they prefer to live alone for some reason.
> 
> And that hutch is not even close to the size of my cage. They said a minimum should be 6' x 2' x 2 my cage is 7' x 4.6 x 3.6' (L x W x H), plus outside playtime. They also said a run should be available - my rabbits are indoor rabbits that get playtime outside.
> 
> Please do not think that all rabbits are the same because a few articles online said so.


The video is for ALL rabbits.
Domestic rabbits do NOT choose to be on their own, it causes extreme mental issues. BUT due to rabbits being a prey species many don't express their pain in a way that many can see.
Out of all the bonds I have done I have met ONE rabbit that wouldn't bond to another and that was because they had been left alone for so long that they just didn't understand other bunny body language.

Can I just explain, I have been studying rabbit body language for many years, what I say is from *experience *nothing to do with online articles...

I really think that no matter what anyone says you will do as you please, your excuse about sticking a run in your bedroom is just that, an excuse..

I have 3 rabbits in my bedroom and they have much, much more space than I do, I also have to walk through their run to get out of the bedroom.... If they pee on your bed then cover it with a plastic sheet whilst you aren't there......So next excuse please?


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

In our house, I often say that it is us that share the house with the buns, not them with us - we have stairgates and barriers everywhere, as we have different groups.

I shared my kitchen with a very large foster for a while, and she at the time was an absolute darling, but totally unbondable as she was so instantly aggressive - she expected to be adored -instantly - but would need a tribe of passive laid back buns to adore her - all the time, as she bullies constantly and is very high maintenance.

She is now in her forever home, living as a house bun, and is having a wonderful life. Bonding has not been ruled out, but it is not the right time at the moment. She was a rescue case, a large bun crammed in a tiny hutch, massively obese - and like Bernie says, no bunny skills.


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

I find it funny how you claim you have "studied rabbit body language for many years" then you would obviously know that every rabbit is different correct? No matter what you say you can't speak for every rabbit - which is what you are doing. You can say from the rabbits you've had in the past have been that way but the rabbits you have had in the past does not come even close to the number of pet rabbits out there. I'm sorry, but keeping a rabbit alone does not cause "extreme mental issues", again you can't speak for every rabbit. There are plenty of rabbits out there who are perfectly happy living by themselves. Sure they *might* enjoy another rabbit, but it certainly does not cause extreme mental issues? Yes there are exceptions - some rabbits are very shy or have anxiety issues and having another friend wi benefit them greatly but not ALL rabbits have issues like that.

I think it's quite amusing how you think I'm making up pointless excuses. You do realize I'm actually taking the time to find a way to make my rabbit's happy, correct? I'm not "making up excuses" I'm thinking about things I should be aware of. Since you think you are so high and mighty and think you are always right - which is what you are doing by saying I'm wrong which I am not. I do have a plastic sheet on my bed, and obviously if you actually had a plastic sheet on your bed which I doubt since you are unaware of this problem, my rabbit will accidentally step in his urine causing a big mess. So if you would like to falsely prove me wrong once more, please do so


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2012)

Didn't think you would listen, it's ok I expected it 
There are scientific studies that prove my point but I guess they are also wrong?

Psst, little pointer, I don't always think I'm right :nono:
Just because your rabbits choose to flop in a cage does not mean they wish to be locked in one  Many of my buns flop in their litter trays but that doesn't mean they want to live in wee and poop 

Oh well never mind I'll bow out now the info you need is on this thread if you chose not to follow it then that's your choice.
You asked if the cage you were describing was big enough, we have given you the answer, if you wish not to take that on then that's your issue not mine :hand:


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

There you go again :001_tongue: there are no scientific studies that prove you are right, where does it say that a rabbit that is well taken care of, and has everything it needs BESIDES another rabbit will develop an "extreme mental issue" I am actually very interested to know more about that, so where is your proof? Anyone can say things but where is your proof? Like I said, they are not locked up in there all day, it is for their safety. If you think that rabbits are only happy if they are free range, you are very wrong. The cage I have described according to others, who are not as big headed as you are, have said that it is perfectly fine. You're basically telling me that a cage that is 4.6' x 7' with a 4' shelf + free time outside of the cage for multiple hours per day is not enough. Lets see, so far you and some others on this forum are the only people who have told me that it is not enough and i have spoken to many others. So, thank you for your effort, but I would rather choose to believe the right answer. 
Like I said, please watch what you say because where is your proof? Back up? You act like you are stating facts but all you are merely saying are thoughts and personal opinions and conclusions you have drawn up yourself. :001_tongue:


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2012)

lifeasweknowit said:


> There you go again :001_tongue: there are no scientific studies that prove you are right, where does it say that a rabbit that is well taken care of, and has everything it needs BESIDES another rabbit will develop an "extreme mental issue" I am actually very interested to know more about that, so where is your proof? Anyone can say things but where is your proof? Like I said, they are not locked up in there all day, it is for their safety. If you think that rabbits are only happy if they are free range, you are very wrong. The cage I have described according to others, who are not as big headed as you are, have said that it is perfectly fine. You're basically telling me that a cage that is 4.6' x 7' with a 4' shelf + free time outside of the cage for multiple hours per day is not enough. Lets see, so far you and some others on this forum are the only people who have told me that it is not enough and i have spoken to many others. So, thank you for your effort, but I would rather choose to believe the right answer.
> Like I said, please watch what you say because where is your proof? Back up? You act like you are stating facts but all you are merely saying are thoughts and personal opinions and conclusions you have drawn up yourself. :001_tongue:


My proof? Try 4 years doing a degree, try studying animal behaviour for 10 years, try all the scientific papers I have read over the years, try the lone rabbits that I have taken in (that got food water and care but were missing the vital friend.

They are NOT my thoughts, they are FACT funny how I'm not the only one to say this huh.

Let's look at some google links shall we:

Rabbits - Company

Rabbit care

Animal Protection Trust - animal rescue and rehoming in East Surrey

Rabbits

Ohh look even [email protected] say they should be kept in pairs 
http://www.petsathome.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Info_10601_rabbit-care-advice-home_-1_10551

The scientific papers I have read aren't online but it has been proven that rabbits suffer mentally when they don't have company, they don't express many natural behaviours when kept alone and can develop steriotypical behaviour from being kept alone.

Sooo how many rabbits have you studied? How many lone rabbits have you taken in and then see a huge change in when bonded to a friend?

Genuinely interested here 

I don't need to watch what I say hunny, I am very happy with the way I keep my rabbits


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## Louiseandfriends (Aug 21, 2011)

How would you know what your rabbit wants?

Have you bonded her with a friend to see of she chooses to be alone or have company?

Have you given her the choice of a 24/7 access outside of her cage to see if she prefers it?

No? Then how can you decide what's right for her?  You're coming to conclusions yourself.

_*If you don't want our (scientifically proved correct) advice, just ignore it and stop arguing. *_


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

To be honest, I don't trust sites like pets at home, they are nothing more than an ill pet shop.

Can rabbits be happy living alone?

FAQ's

In any case, there are exceptions. I'm not trying to argue with you, just make sure what you say is fact unless stated other wise. Not every rabbit will benefit from having a friend, most sure, every? No. Doesn't matter anyway as I have 2

Again, that is YOUR personal experience, my personal experience with rabbits that live alone and then introduced to a friend, can and will be different from your experience, that does not mean you are right :001_tongue: 
I'm glad you are happy with the way you raise your pets, as I am with mine. I see you have ignored my question about the cage in your last post, perhaps you have realized that what I have in mind is acceptable, and free range rabbits aren't the only rabbits that are happy:001_tongue:


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## Louiseandfriends (Aug 21, 2011)

You're doubting an EXPERIENCED person over a silly form.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2012)

-sigh-


Nevermind, carry on as you were


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm sure both of my rabbits enjoy the company of the other rabbit, but they were happy before they had a mate. Like I have said before, when I have nothing planned for the day I often keep the doors of the cages open and within a couple hours of exploring and running about both will retreat back to their cages, and since I have been rearranging things recently for just a couple of days, the door of her cage was blocked for a short period of time, and after a few hours she was biting the bars to get in.


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## lifeasweknowit (Dec 17, 2012)

:001_tongue: 
Just about as experienced as nothing. Thank you for your time. But I'd rather do things that i know will be better for my rabbits, rather than listen to some big headed people that live half way across the world and are incapable of listening to other's people's ideas and actually thinking about it. 
Thanks for your effort.


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## Louiseandfriends (Aug 21, 2011)

it's all right to beat a child. In my option, they grow up to be better and nicer children from my experience. Forget the fact they suffer, I think they'll do better that way. So it's totally okay for me to do so! :thumbsup:

_*Rabbit are naturally sociable creatures who are most active at dawn and dusk. IT CRUEL to stop these natural behaviours. *_


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

It's great that you are researching, and trying to do best by your buns. Lots of people don't.

Several people on here are or have been involved in rabbit rescue, and have seen and take on bunnies in pitiful condition, both physically and mentally. 

It does make you lose confidence in fellow human beings, sadly, and is what makes us so passionate about trying to educate or "make that difference". Sometimes it is hard to get that across.

Things are constantly changing, which is why rescues ask for different sized accommodation too. At home, we are constantly upgrading too. Maybe in the future they will advise that all buns should be safely free range, and I will look back at our enclosures and think they were too small. For now, I think that all our buns have a good life - and far better than the life they had before - they live in spacious enclosures with room to stretch and run.


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## Zow (Sep 18, 2012)

This forum is starting to get a little bit ridiculous when it comes to actually helping people. If someone says that they do not have the space to give their rabbits their own room, and that having them free-range is not an option, you should be advising them on the best cage/pen/whatever set up, not just repeatedly saying that they should be free range or have their own room.

I appreciate that you want the best for the rabbits, but if you attack people they don't listen, it's quite simple. I spent months researching rabbits and rabbit accommodation before I got my rabbit, yet people on here still think his accommodation is cruel? Because he's not out ALL of the time, even though he's only shut up in his cage at night. I'd also like to point out that my rabbit does binky in his cage, he also runs 500's around it, he does this even when the doors are open and he could do them in my room (that is not to say he doesn't do them in my room, he does, just sometimes he runs around his cage instead)

I'm leaving these forums now, they're a joke.

Zow


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Zow said:


> This forum is starting to get a little bit ridiculous when it comes to actually helping people. If someone says that they do not have the space to give their rabbits their own room, and that having them free-range is not an option, you should be advising them on the best cage/pen/whatever set up, not just repeatedly saying that they should be free range or have their own room.
> 
> I appreciate that you want the best for the rabbits, but if you attack people they don't listen, it's quite simple. I spent months researching rabbits and rabbit accommodation before I got my rabbit, yet people on here still think his accommodation is cruel? Because he's not out ALL of the time, even though he's only shut up in his cage at night. I'd also like to point out that my rabbit does binky in his cage, he also runs 500's around it, he does this even when the doors are open and he could do them in my room (that is not to say he doesn't do them in my room, he does, just sometimes he runs around his cage instead)
> 
> ...


If you read some of the comments, some of us do really try to help...


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Sorry you feel like that Zow - I always try to help, not criticise, and I do believe that we can all learn from being on here.


As a point of interest, we once took on 3 fosters who did their best mini bunny 500s in an underbed storage box - never seen anything like it before or since, but they used to get so excited it was lovely.


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