# Is it cruel keeping cats as indoor cats



## Kenneth Flemming (Dec 23, 2016)

I have two cats a male and female which im currently keeping as indoor cats, id like to let them out but dont trust the lads and their big dogs by mine as ive heard they let their dogs chase d cats; plus their are busy roads close by. Am i cruel keeping them as indoor cats?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)




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## Guest (Jan 2, 2017)

No it isn't cruel. I had a cat called Toby and at 3 years old he was killed by a human, he was run over and died instantly. Any future cats I own will be indoor cats though might cat proof the garden.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I've had outdoor cats most of my life , only one has died from a road accident. However, if I was ever to get another cat it would only have outside access to a cat proofed garden.My current cat is old and doesn't venture beyond the garden, she spends 90% of her time asleep in the kitchen now but loves a sunny spot in the garden.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@labradrk - brilliant! :Hilarious

@Kenneth Flemming - if you live near busy roads I don't think you have any choice but to keep your cats safe indoors. Many cats have no road sense and it would be cruel to let them out to be killed on the roads. As it is, over 250,000 cats are killed on Britain's roads every year, which is appalling!. 

Can you not build your cats an outdoor enclosure off your house so they can go out safely for some fresh air and to watch the birds and squirrels? Or do what I have done and fence in your garden with special catproof fencing so the cats cannot get out? I like my cats to have some safe outdoor access.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

my son has two brothers, theyre 6 1/2 now and theyve been indoor cats since the day I brought them home for him at 6 weeks [yes I know now, didnt then]
neither of them try to get out and he lives on a ground floor flat that opens straight onto a road that, at the moment is in the middle of a building site
In fact Calcifer runs for the bedroom as soon as he hears the front door being opened. Harvey will come and have a look and a stroke but still wont try and get out of an open door


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

It definitely is a can of worms :Hilarious
There is no clear cut answer I fear - people will always be passionate on both sides of the debate.
For my own part I keep my cats indoors - they are breeding queens and it would be irresponsible of me to let them roam wherever they wanted. I don't feel that they are missing out by not going outside and none of them bother about an open door or window (though I don't leave windows or doors open generally). I have, in the past, taken cats out on a harness and lead and they have enjoyed it but haven't done so with any of my current brood.
Ideally I think a large pen or cat proofed garden is the way to go but if it isn't doable where you live @Kenneth Flemming then, so long as you provide plenty of places for them to climb, hide and jump, plenty of games to satisfy their need to hunt, pounce and chase, your cats should be content.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Yes, a can of worms have definitely been opened. 

I used to think that all cats should go out, but after reading on here and elsewhere, this is not the case for all cats, all of the time. Each cat is an individual.

I personally think if a cat is _desperate _to go out, they should be let out. Some cats simply want to go out, and will try everything to get out. However, if a cat expresses no wish to go out, an indoor life has its advantages. A cat not wanting to go out, should not be forced.

An indoor cat has advantages in that she is safer, and there are less dangers inside. There are obvious things, like her being hit by a car. But there is also other dangers from people deliberately harming cats, from deliberate to unintentional poisoning and the thankful (hopefully) rarity of cats being stolen for their value or for dog fighting. Some people think it's funny to set their dogs on cats, and some people get a kick from hurting animals. There is also that she could get into fights with other cats. Some cats get picked up by children, in all innocence, and they take them off somewhere. Some cats can find their way home, but many can't. A cat may also eat something they shouldn't. Plus, an outside cat may have several homes, where she gets fed and gets fat! There is also the risk of urban foxes killing them in the UK. In the US, there are other predators. Also, outdoor cats can get trapped somewhere and go "missing" for days or weeks, when they are stuck in someone's garage or shed.

However, IMO, there are some good reasons to let a cat out. Some people on here will think I'm naive, but it is my opinion, which is as valid as theirs. I think a cat can enjoy herself outside, and have fun. There are bugs and flies to chase, as well as exploring. I also think cats burn a lot of energy off if they go out, especially the young ones. A cat, especially the young ones, will likely need a lot more stimulation from play if made to stay indoors. Some cats are desperate to go out, and IMO (remember my opinion), I think it's cruel to _make_ them stay in. When I was a kid, all our cats went out, and none of them came to any harm. However, the roads are busier now.

Ideally, if you let your cat out, a cat-proof garden is best, but this is not always possible. When Betty adopted us, she was a stray. She liked to go out, and as she was used to being out a lot, I didn't want to force her to stay in.

We are adopting a new cat from a rescue centre on Wednesday. We obviously can't let her out for weeks, until she is settled, but then I will encourage her to stay in. But _if _she desperately wants to go out, I will let her out for short periods, in the back garden. Some people will disagree with me, but it's _my informed choice._


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Both my cats are indoors, although I've had outdoor cats in the past (before I knew any better!). I would never, ever, ever let a cat outside ever again.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

We've always lived in quiet areas and all of our cats have had access to outside during the day and I can't imagine ever having solely indoor cats. 

I do think though, that there seem to be far more issues to consider with outdoor cats nowadays. If I ever have cats again I would probably make the garden cat proof as a compromise.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Depends where you live - obviously if you live in a city / busy town / near a main road etc then letting them out to free roam isn't sensible

However, if you're in a rural area with no / little traffic / other dangers then there's no reason why they shouldn't go out - provided you take sensible precautions (eg keeping them in at night or whatever suits where you live) 

One of mine goes out everyday & would hate to be kept in / be really stressed about it - the other hardly ever ventures out and rarely goes out for longer than 10 mins, most of the time never venturing out my garden


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I did a search for you about life enrichment for in door cats

https://www.bing.com/search?q=life+enrichment+for+indoor+cats+


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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

There's no clear cut answer. It depends on the individual cat, your environment and your circumstances (e.g. are you abke and willing to spend time entertaining and stimulating an indoor cat). A cat proof garden or enclosure are compromises but options not available to everyone.

My cats are indoor cats and I'm satisfied they are happy, content cats.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> Both my cats are indoors, although I've had outdoor cats in the past (before I knew any better!). I would never, ever, ever let a cat outside ever again.


Same here - way too many hazards outside these days not just the roads.....
so indoors - lots of stuff to stimulate, play and exercise and access to a cat proof garden or cat run or harness if possible.


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## bluecordelia (Jan 5, 2014)

Mine go out but if I moved to an area with neighbours and cars I would have an enclosed garden or a big run with a cat flap allowing them to choose when to nip out


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Mine are indoor cats with access to a run, I live near a busy road (60mph right at the end of my drive) my cats know nothing other than being indoors and seem pretty happy and content with their lot in life, I don't think I could ever have free roaming cats again and if my garden wasn't so big then it would be cat proofed.


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## rockdot (Jul 19, 2016)

Mine have always had access to the outside world and I personally wouldn't have an indoor cat. I do however have a couple of friends that have indoor cats and they seem to be happy to stay inside so I think it's down to personal preference and circumstance.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I keep Cats indoors with access to a cat proof garden as the Norwegian Forest Cats are just too friendly (stupid). Loki when he has escaped got in an ambulance, climbed up front and was standing on the seat with his paws on the dashboard ready to go. He loves going in the car. Skye would let anyone pick her up and walk off with her. Loki and Sweetie Kitten (uncle and niece) are desperate to go outside whereas Skye is not bothered. Monty (mog) doesn't go out as he climbed into a car engine three years ago He was very lucky to get off as well as he did with "just" a third degree burn.

Newton our nervous cat has benefited massively from the cat proof garden as other people's cats no longer come into his territory and worry him.

Do I feel guilty that Loki and Sweetie are desperate to go out into the big world and I won't let them, no I don't. A play with a toy soon distracts them so they forget about it. They only want to go out after they see the front door open if the hall door hasn't been shut. Also our neighbours cat was killed by a dog. Probably the same one that chases cats and the owner can't control.


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## Milliedogsmummy (Oct 25, 2016)

Our old cat went outside up until a couple years before her died due to needing meds. Gizmo we plan to keep indoors as our road is getting more idiot drivers on it. Also there is a lot more cats on the street we forever hear cat fights, we may build a outside pen for him in the future or get a harness and lead.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

depends on the cat to be honest - our two get very stressed if not allowed out. 

sounds like where you live you've made the right decision however.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

My cats are too precious to risk going outside to roam, it's not common to have outdoor cats here and against the law in some areas.

Certainly not cruel to keep them in, I've never owned a free roaming cat and never will.
Some of mine go out on a harness, we also have a couple of enclosures for some safe outdoor time.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I personally wouldn't want to keep cats indoors and do find it's a very emotive subject which usually ends up very heated on both sides. Our old cats went out during the night and tended to choose to sleep at home or in the garden throughout the day, although could come & go as they pleased.


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

I have three happy housecats. Ozzy runs out on occasion and then hides. He THINKS he wants to be out then proves otherwise if he gets there. He does like going in the garden on his harness though  

Loki has a harness but hates going out so I have stopped trying. And Arya is too young, will try her with the harness when the warm weather comes around. We live near a very busy main road so I would never let them roam (one of many reasons)


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Simple answer ......no it isn't cruel,far from it.
The "big wide world" is not a safe place for any animal never mind a much loved family pet.
Meeko has a run with a tunnel giving him freedom to come and go out into a safe outdoor space where he can watch/smell and sense all the attractions of the outdoors without causing or getting into any sort of trouble,best of both worlds


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## loroll1991 (Apr 11, 2015)

Nope, not cruel at all.

My two are both indoor only and are perfectly happy. The 'big wide world' (in my opinion!!) is not a nice one in my eyes anymore, and not safe. My two do not want to go outside either, I remember I once went to open the door carrying Millie in my arms, god awful idea thinking about it now, she could have easily jumped out of my arms and run down the street - but she didn't - instead she went absolutely mental thinking I was putting her outside, sprinted into my bedroom and hid under my bed for 2 hours. They'd much prefer being snuggled up on my bed, playing with their flying frenzy and going mad on their cat tree.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2017)

In September I adopted a kitten and I was thinking the same thing. As I live on a very busy street I didnt want to risk letting her out. There are a lot of ferals in my area which I had to contact a rescue about as they have been breeding uncontrollably over the years and people who live on my street were drowning the kittens. I also heard of one person who threw boiling water on a cat because it was in his garden. This year alone I have had to pick ul 10+ dead cats off the road outside my house that have been knocked down. Growing up I had cats when I lived in the countryside who loved going outdoors but living in a built up area with so many unpredictable humans and busy roads I would rather be safe than sorry.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Not cruel at all.

My cat goes out, his curfew is 8pm, when I get my own house I will be having a cat proofed garden, unless the house happens to be in an extremely quiet area. As Bronn is used to going out for him garden access will be essential.


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## BritishBilbo (Jul 19, 2015)

My two are indoor only and my third will be the same. If you want to give them the enrichment of outdoors without the free roaming maybe look into a pen on the back of your house? Or harness l training. Bilbo escaped overnight once and lived outside for a night, he won't step foot outside now. Prefers his home comforts!


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> I personally wouldn't want to keep cats indoors and do find it's a very emotive subject which usually ends up very heated on both sides. Our old cats went out during the night and tended to choose to sleep at home or in the garden throughout the day, although could come & go as they pleased.


Do you allow your dogs to free roam day and night out of interest?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

huckybuck said:


> Do you allow your dogs to free roam day and night out of interest?


Nope, but they also don't spend 24/7 indoors.

Our cats were very much used to that lifestyle and containing them at a later stage in their life would have been cruel.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

huckybuck said:


> Do you allow your dogs to free roam day and night out of interest?


Now, let's not start _that _pointless argument again...  The mods have a hard enough job as it is!


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Now, let's not start _that _pointless argument again...  The mods have a hard enough job as it is!


I don't think it is pointless. I don't want to have an argument it has been very polite in here up to now but it is often something I ponder. If I let my dog out on his own to roam I would be raked over the coals by other dog owners... I would be considered negligent and cruel if I let my rabbits roam... I would be prosecuted if my chipmunks were out to do as they please. Yet few people would bat an eyelid if I let my cats out of the front door to do as they please. .

Now I am not starting debate, that is my feelings on it. I don't need people to say "cats are different because" because I do not agree with that and I do NOT want this thread to descend into a bunfight. It is just something I find interesting that I ponder on from time to time....


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> *Now, let's not start that pointless argument again*...  The mods have a hard enough job as it is!


Jesthar whilst I appreciate your point and agree we don't need to have any "pointless arguments" on something that is personal choice.
I find it a mystery that whilst most dog owners would never dream of allowing their dogs to take themselves off for a walk unsupervised they happily open the door and allow their cats to do so .
As an ex dog owner I would never have dreamed of allowing my precious dogs to wander off alone so cannot for the life of me understand why it is considered different where cats are concerned


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

anachronism said:


> I don't think it is pointless.
> <snip>
> Now I am not starting debate,


Hey, _debate_ isn't pointless  A good debate with consideration and _thoughtful _questions and responses is rarely a waste of time, even for us old hands who have seen this particular debate go round in circles many a time 



buffie said:


> Jesthar whilst I appreciate your point and agree we don't need to have any "pointless arguments" on something that is personal choice.
> I find it a mystery that whilst most dog owners would never dream of allowing their dogs to take themselves off for a walk unsupervised they happily open the door and allow their cats to do so .
> As an ex dog owner I would never have dreamed of allowing my precious dogs to wander off alone so cannot for the life of me understand why it is considered different where cats are concerned


As we've had a request to not go down the 'cats are different because' route, I won't. I will, however, reiterate my personal position as previously stated on other threads: I have a cat who is simply _not_ suited to to being an indoor cat. Keep Charlie-girl inside 24/7 for more than a week and she gets depressed, and the time she isn't spending pleading to be let out is spent curled up in an unhappy ball snarling at anything that disturbs her. She doesn't play with toys, so I can't entertain her that way either. One foray outside, and I have my friendly purrball back  (just to complete the picture, I don't have a cat flap as I prefer to let mine in and out myself, so they are only let out when I am there to do so, and my garden can't be cat proofed or have an enclosure built). So, if I were to answer the OP question for Charlie, then yes it WOULD be cruel to keep her as an indoor cat. I know some will disagree and argue that any cat can be made to be a happy indoor cat, but my Charlie-girl obviously didn't get that memo.

Lori, on the other hand, probably would be OK as an innie - she rarely asks to go out, especially when it's this cold! Charlie, however, was asking to go out for a bit more or less as soon as I walked through the door...


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> Hey, _debate_ isn't pointless  A good debate with consideration and _thoughtful _questions and responses is rarely a waste of time, even for us old hands who have seen this particular debate go round in circles many a time
> 
> As we've had a request to not go down the 'cats are different because' route, I won't. I will, however, reiterate my personal position as previously stated on other threads: I have a cat who is simply _not_ suited to to being an indoor cat. Keep Charlie-girl inside 24/7 for more than a week and she gets depressed, and the time she isn't spending pleading to be let out is spent curled up in an unhappy ball snarling at anything that disturbs her. She doesn't play with toys, so I can't entertain her that way either. One foray outside, and I have my friendly purrball back  (just to complete the picture, I don't have a cat flap as I prefer to let mine in and out myself, so they are only let out when I am there to do so, and my garden can't be cat proofed or have an enclosure built). So, if I were to answer the OP question for Charlie, then yes it WOULD be cruel to keep her as an indoor cat. I know some will disagree and argue that any cat can be made to be a happy indoor cat, but my Charlie-girl obviously didn't get that memo.
> 
> Lori, on the other hand, probably would be OK as an innie - she rarely asks to go out, especially when it's this cold! Charlie, however, was asking to go out for a bit more or less as soon as I walked through the door...


I don't doubt for 1 minute that what you say is true,as I have already said it is a personal opinion as to whether or not to allow cats "freedom to roam".
What mystifies me is why owners of dogs and cats would not allow their dog "freedom to roam" yet see nothing odd in doing just that with their cats.
I'm well aware of the laws governing the control of dogs but if the law were to be changed tomorrow would they then just open the door and let them all go and have fun together


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

buffie said:


> I don't doubt for 1 minute that what you say is true,as I have already said it is a personal opinion as to whether or not to allow cats "freedom to roam".
> What mystifies me is why owners of dogs and cats would not allow their dog "freedom to roam" yet see nothing odd in doing just that with their cats.
> I'm well aware of the laws governing the control of dogs but if the law were to be changed tomorrow would they then just open the door and let them all go and have fun together


I know years and years ago it used to be acceptable to let dogs roam but now it isn't. I wonder whether in years to come it will be as unacceptable to let cats roam


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

buffie said:


> What mystifies me is why owners of dogs and cats would not allow their dog "freedom to roam" yet see nothing odd in doing just that with their cats.
> I'm well aware of the laws governing the control of dogs but if the law were to be changed tomorrow would they then just open the door and let them all go and have fun together


We always used to let our family dog free roam - in the back garden. He even had a dog flap for 24/7 access. 

The difference between a cat and dog in that scenario was that the dog was easily contained by the 6ft fence, which the local cats scaled with ease


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> Nope, but they also don't spend 24/7 indoors.
> 
> Our cats were very much used to that lifestyle and containing them at a later stage in their life would have been cruel.


Interesting - I can completely understand the reason for your cats being allowed to roam if that's what they are used to BUT I am genuinely interested in your comment about not wanting to keep cats indoors...if you had a kitten in the future that had not been out before would you be happy for it to roam free? Or are you saying that you think a cat should have a period of daily fresh air (safe/supervised) which is actually something I aspire to.

I am guessing that you don't allow your dogs un supervised outdoor access so just wondered if you do agree with free roaming for cats, why you would view a cat differently?


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Now, let's not start _that _pointless argument again...  The mods have a hard enough job as it is!


So it's ok for other people to leave their comments but not for me to question why?

Or was my question not thoughtful enough?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Jesthar said:


> We always used to let our family dog free roam - in the back garden. He even had a dog flap for 24/7 access.
> 
> The difference between a cat and dog in that scenario was that the dog was easily contained by the 6ft fence, which the local cats scaled with ease


And it's fairly rare for anyone to report they have been bitten or even chased by the neighbour's cat!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2017)

Dogloverlou said:


> I personally wouldn't want to keep cats indoors and do find it's a very emotive subject which usually ends up very heated on both sides. Our old cats went out during the night and tended to choose to sleep at home or in the garden throughout the day, although could come & go as they pleased.


With all due respect letting cats out the front door to roam wherever they want is how cats get killed by humans. Not just being run over either, there are other ways humans can kill animals.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> And it's fairly rare for anyone to report they have been bitten or even chased by the neighbour's cat!


They'd have had to have climbed over an eight foot back gate and made it all the way down the four foot wide passage down the side of the house (house on one side, 8 foot retaining wall on the other with the next door neighbours six foot fence on to on the other - our house in on a slope) to get chased up our garden! One person did try it once it early in the morning once and got the shock of their life when the dog erupted out the dog flap and barked his head off at them just as Dad heard them climbing over the gate! The footsteps heading away from the house were pretty rapid, according to Mum 



huckybuck said:


> So it's ok for other people to leave their comments but not for me to question why?
> 
> Or was my question not thoughtful enough?


Neither. Just easy to tangentialise, so thought it best to inject a bit of humour


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Jesthar said:


> They'd have had to have climbed over an eight foot back gate and made it all the way down the four foot wide passage down the side of the house (house on one side, 8 foot retaining wall on the other with the next door neighbours six foot fence on to on the other - our house in on a slope) to get chased up our garden! One person did try it once it early in the morning once and got the shock of their life when the dog erupted out the dog flap and barked his head off at them just as Dad heard them climbing over the gate! The footsteps heading away from the house were pretty rapid, according to Mum
> 
> Neither. Just easy to tangentialise, so thought it best to inject a bit of humour


Ha ha! 

One of my mum's cats did "stalk" a neighbour and his GSD. They used to cross over before getting to her house in case she chased them! 

I'm not sure she actually did, rather as she was brought up with a dog, probably wanted to just say hello!


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> And it's fairly rare for anyone to report they have been bitten or even chased by the neighbour's cat!


It does happen though... My last dog was a decently sized staffy cross who was attacked several times by a cat living a few doors down. They didn't believe me until they saw him attacking Casey themselves. He nearly took my poor dogs eye out!

Cats don't have to chase or bite to be antisocial. Cats are hated by many a gardener for pooing in their flowerbeds, by nature lovers for the small animals they catch.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Neither. Just easy to tangentialise, so thought it best to inject a bit of humour


My question was a thoughtful, considered one and in response to a previous poster's comment. I do not consider it to be off on a tangent..


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

huckybuck said:


> Interesting - I can completely understand the reason for your cats being allowed to roam if that's what they are used to BUT I am genuinely interested in your comment about not wanting to keep cats indoors...if you had a kitten in the future that had not been out before would you be happy for it to roam free? Or are you saying that you think a cat should have a period of daily fresh air (safe/supervised) which is actually something I aspire to.
> 
> I am guessing that you don't allow your dogs un supervised outdoor access so just wondered if you do agree with free roaming for cats, why you would view a cat differently?


I just personally believe a cat needs outdoor access and would be what I prefer for my own if I was to get one in the future. Living indoors 24/7 without it is not healthy or fair IMHO. Although if measures were taken to meet that need in the cat for outside access of some kind whether that's an enclosure or lead walks, then that's fair enough. Each to their own I guess.

My neighbours have much loved cats that are allowed outside but do appear to be magnetized to their garden and rarely stray much further than that. However in the summer one did go missing overnight which prompted much frantic searching & desperation from her owners. They told me that once found she would be relegated to a chicken coop only. They tried this for a couple of weeks and all I heard was the poor thing meowing and constantly sounding distressed whenever she was out. I've since seen her loose again so I assume that didn't work out, but for cats that seemingly don't roam very far I don't see the need for such containment. OTOH I used to have a friend whose cat would go missing for weeks on end before returning home! I always used to find that rather odd and worrisome. Our cats returned every day after their night time wanderings and a quick call out the door would always bring them running.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> And it's fairly rare for anyone to report they have been bitten or even chased by the neighbour's cat!


...........but not so rare to hear/read of folks that are sick to death of cleaning up cat s**t from their garden or defending wildlife from their claws.
Maybe not quite the same but never the less a PITA to the people concerned


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Some people keep their cats in. Some people let their cats out. What we all have in common is that we love our cats. We are all allowed to have our opinions, but we should not be_ judging _others on what they allow their cat to do.


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## Peridot30 (Apr 24, 2015)

We kept our cat as an indoor cat for 2 years then dh let her out and she never ventured far, only into our garden or the neighbours on either side, my problem is she is petrified every time she hears a noise and dashes back in, I thought she would get better over the course of time but she hasn't. So for the last 6 weeks she hasn't been out and hasn't wanted out either, she seems happy to be in the house.

Also today I've read about 4 cats within a 5 mile radius who have disappeared over the last few days and this scares me!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
is keeping one's pet cat indoors-only a cruel practice? ... *Absolutely.*
.
Cats who live indoors never have the chance to fulfill their destinies - they don't die flattened into difficult-to-recognize road-kill, nor do they sport a rakish limp from a non-fatal automotive encounter; toms don't accrue those fascinating scars, so admired by felines of the Fair Sex, from honorable combat with other tomcats, cat-attack dogs (sometimes inflicted by the dog in her or his own garden on the intruding cat), or whilst scrapping with raccoons, rats, foxes, & other varied wildlife.
.
Neutered males don't get the illicit thrill of spraying on other cats' doorposts, garden shrubs, & other vertical markers; spayed females miss their opportunities to harass other cats in the neighborhood, & both sexes of any reproductive status miss the excitement of being chased home by another feline, a dog in hot pursuit [possibly dragging a sluggish, loudly-protesting human on their leash], or an irate homeowner flinging small rocks & swearing viciously.
.
.
Cats who live indoors don't achieve the thrill of a real hunt, with actual bloodshed [red, blue, clear, who cares what color, as long as it's vital fluids] from real animals of a delightful assortment of species, genuses, classes, & orders. Think of the Life-List a free-roaming cat can compile: arachnids, lepidoptera, amphibia, insects, herpetological specimens, avian, voles, water-shrews, squirrels, rabbits, hares, ... the possibilities make one's head spin! :Jawdrop The amazing variety of prey! - the stalk, the leap, the pounce, the crunch between teeth, so satisfying.
And then batting it around until it stops moving - no need to carry it home, most of the time; once dead, they're no fun.
.
.
Cats who live indoors must make-do with fake prey, no blood, & don't get to gorge on Toxo-carrying creatures --- they lose their God-given function as designated transmitters of _Toxoplasma_ _gondii_, which must make it hard to hold their parasite-free heads up.  They aren't winnowed by the merciless roulette-wheel of Nature, afflicting some with contagious diseases from other felines, others with tick-born illnesses, & some with flea-borne sicknesses - such as bubonic plague.
In the U-S, free-roaming cats can be infected with rabies, a highly-exciting disease that makes them thrill inexpressibly to every sound & movement. As an unfortunate side-effect, it also makes it impossible to drink fluids, & it's fatal - but while it lasts, & while the cat lasts, oh, what sublime nervous agitation!
.
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Cats who live indoors may be cursed to live to 20 or more years - petted, played with, & cosseted unbearably for decades. Oh, the pathos! - oh, the shame, the perfidy, the wickedness of keeping a cat alive & safe. *shakes head sadly* An indoor life is truly evil.
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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Jackie C said:


> Some people keep their cats in. Some people let their cats out. What we all have in common is that we love our cats. We are all allowed to have our opinions, but we should not be_ judging _others on what they allow their cat to do.


With respect I don't think there has been any "judging" of others on whether they allow cats to free roam or not,infact this has been a very polite "in/out thread.
The only question I have seen being asked is why it is considered okay to allow cats owned by dog owners to "free roam"and yet these owners would never allow their dogs to do the same .


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

Where I live is in rural Southern Spain. My neighbours all have free to roam dogs, cats, some chickens. The only people that walk their dogs are Brits, the Spanish think this is very strange behaviour. It is changing very, very slowly and some Spanish now have little pet dogs that are allowed in the house.

My cats are allowed out as they please. My dog is not as she is a chicken killer. There are such obvious differences that I don't think you can say dogs aren't allowed out so cats shouldn't either.

I think ideally cats should be allowed out. I understand this is not always possible but equally I wouldn't choose a cat for a new pet if I knew I was going to live somewhere like a 4th floor flat.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Also, there is a key difference in regards to comparing cats and dogs free roaming. Dogs DO (most of them anyway ) get off lead walks/outings/training/ away from home etc etc. If I was to keep my pet dog inside 24/7 I think I'd be reported for cruelty and quite rightly so. The two are not comparable in their needs/wants.

I agree that everyone loves their cats equally whether you choose an indoor or outdoor lifestyle for them. Our cats were adored & cherished and were one in a million boys and that's all that matters at the end of the day


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
dogs - even when running off-leash - are generally under direct supervision, if they're outside a fence.
Somebody is monitoring their behavior, if they're pets & not working flock-guards.
.
Cats are not usually escorted by their owner or a handler, unless they're on a leash & harness.
That's precisely why their bloody impact on local wildlife is so plausibly deniable by their adoring public:
They don't have to witness it, so they can claim it doesn't happen. o.o ... -.- ...  If i didn't see it, it's all alleged, & probly just a wicked fiction foisted on our darling Puss.
.
.
I grew-up with darling Pusses, & i have no dearly-held illusions about what they're capable of; i've been rousted out of bed by a shrieking rabbit being chased & batted by 2 or 3 delighted cats in the wee hours of the night, far, far too often to think Puss will cease & desist. 
I'm the patsy who chaese down the poor creature one more time, picks it up quivering in pain & terror, looks at its snapped leg bone protruding from the torn flesh & the wrung-off foot dangling by a strip of tangled skin, feels sick, angry, & helpless, & snaps the thin neck.
I watch the eyes glaze & feel the heart stutter to a halt, & i'm relieved that this animal, at least, is no longer in pain & terrified.
But i also know full well they'll do it again, & again, & again.
And i won't be there to stop the torture, nor to prevent the killing.
.
.
Cats pounce on critters even if they're not hungry.
They kill for the fun of it - something that infuriates us, in other predators, but in cats we think it's charming.
I'm not charmed.
.
.
Housecats are subsidized predators who can exist in numbers inconceivable to wild predators, at literally impossible densities.
Cats can reach 2K per square mile - a hundred times the density of any wild mesopredator, even in plenteous environs, let alone or greatly-diminished & often impoverished urban / burban landscapes.
.
.
if coyotes can help control feral cats & take a toll of free-roaming pets, i'm all for coyotes.
Coyotes don't kill songbirds, & outside the high plains deserts of their scrawny Western origins, they don't chow-down on large insects, either.
They're a wee bit more discriminating & less wholesale in their killing than cats, plus they'll eat roadkill & natural-death corpses -- starved, frozen, etc.
Cats want the fun of delivering the coup de grace themselves, & feel cheated if the animal's already dead - Where's the fun in that?
.
.
for cats, it's not about EATING; it's about killing, if possible, or catching if U can't kill it, which is often just as fatal to their prey, as cats' teeth & claws are notorious for carrying incredibly-potent microbes.
For small animals, 1 puncture injecting bacteria like a hypodermic needle deep into tissue will kill them in 3 to 4 days if not treated with antibiotics...
& that means someone must find the animal, take it to a rehabber, they treat, feed, house, bandage, do wound debriding, etc, & **if s/he survives** after 21-days of mandatory antibiotics, plus any needed time to recover muscle tone / balance / endurance / speed, the survivor will be released.
.
.
Not many are released; most [meaning more than 1/2] of the wildlife brought in after cat-attacks die, directly of their wounds, indirectly of infection, or must be euthanized because they can't survive with 3 legs / one eye / a paralyzed foot / whatever permanent damage.
.
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I'm tired of cat-owners treating the wildlife of the world as their pet's personal Disneyland.
I'm tired of trying to patch-up animals who should be living, rearing young, catching pests, singing in the dawn chorus, & filling vernal pools with tadpoles.
If it takes legislation to stop free-roaming pet cats as an accepted practice, I'm going to work toward that end.
Cat-owners apparently don't worry overmuch about their pets' risk from great-horned owls, redtailed hawks, raccoons, fox, coyote, & most common killer or crippler, the automobile.
The various hazards of accidental trauma [impalement, falls from trees, etc], disease [FIV, FLV, FIP, rabies...], fight injuries [infection, eye injuries, stitches...], & so on, don't stop them opening the door for Puss to saunter out.
Maybe fines for 1st & 2nd offenses, with confiscation after being caught out 3X & mandatory euthanasia on the 3rd strike, will make cat-owners reconsider.
.
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or perhaps, since fewer than 10% of all cats in U-S shelters are ever claimed by owners, they'll continue to let Puss out, & just replace the ones who go M.I.A.
That's what they seem to do, now. *shrug* Cat-owners don't seem as attached to individual cats as they are to "having a cat" in general. Otherwise, cats wouldn't be so readily replaceable.
.
.
"Letting a cat roam" is just a subset of animal abandonment.
It should be no more socially acceptable than littering along the highway or blowing one's nose onthe corner of the tablecloth in a public restaurant - it's just as sloppy, rude, & careless.
.
Yup - i'm judging, & finding owners who allow their pets to roam wanting in responsibility... to their cat's welfare, their community, their neighbors, & the planet.
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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

It does depend where u live .
And if the cats are content to stay in or desperately want to go out . My Millie will wander off but I do live in a cul de sac but she stays in over nite my Mia wil stay out all nite but I'm not comfortable with tht tbh . He does come in when it's bitter cold thou .


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Cats pounce on critters even if they're not hungry.
> They kill for the fun of it - something that infuriates us, in other predators, but in cats we think it's charming.
> I'm not charmed.


Not quite accurate, they chase and pounce because of hardwired instinct, not for fun. The same way Border Collies instinctively herd, sight hounds and terriers instinctively chase, handreared birds of prey follow a lure etc. We may like to think that they chase their toys just for fun (probably beecause we anthropomorphise our own enjoyment of seeing them do it  ), but for them it's as natural and as satisfying a behaviour as scratching their claws.

From the sound of it, the general attitude to cat ownership in the US is very different from the UK, which is a shame. My two cats are very much individually loved, their very different personalitles known and appreciated, and their quirks catered to. And for Charlie-girl, one of her 'quirks' is she _genuinely _gets depressed if forced to remain indoors 24/7. I could no more justify forcing her to live as an indoor cat than I could justify the horror of declawing her in case she scratches furniture (thankfully declawing is banned over here  ). For her, it would be a similar level of torment. She came to me as a rehome used to free roaming over fields all day and night as she chose. That she's happy with going out for a few hours most evenings (usually her first act when I get in is to head to the back door and ask to be let out) is fine by me.

Or would it be more socially acceptable to have her put down?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
for cats who really, genuinely *Need* to go outside, which is a small fragment of the total pet-cat popn, there are multiple options:
- a secure cat-proof fence around the home garden.
Please don't whine that U can't affford to rent or buy or share costs on any house; if that's literally true, rehome Ur mandatory-outdoor-access kitty to someone who can provide that.
Otherwise, convert her or him to an indoor-kitty with a happily trained leash & harness for close-to-home outings from Ur apt, condo, 3rd-floor walk-up, houseboat, tiny-house, trailer, refrigerator carton, or whatever non-house / gardenless abode U call home. 
.
- a screen-room atached to the house, free-standing, with rsting shelves to observe the passing scene & wildlife ... without the opp to pounce on them.
.
- a bird-feeder mounted on a pole 8 to 10-ft from a bay window, bump-out screened "cat patio", or other feline accommodations.
Puss can watch them to their heart's content, & never rumple a feather or pierce a tiny breast.  
- a screened cat-run, sturdily designed, free-standing or attached.
.
- a secure aquarium, a built-in wall installation with a sliding cabinet door to access the top for feeding & maintenance is a good cat-proof feline TV.
.
.
I know cats are hard-wired to hunt / pounce if it moves or sounds right.
I also know they enjoy it intensely - so yes, they do kill "for fun", as obviously they don't need the calories when their human guardians are providing food regularly, as well as vet care, shelter when the roaming cat is in the mood to spend time at the family manse, & all the other things *wildlife* are not provided.
.
I've converted feral-born cats as adults to indoor-only house pets.
I've taught dozens of cats to play "fetch" with a Q-tip, fluffy tampon on a string [the cardboard-tube, paper-wrapped sort or recyclable & compostable], or the pull-tabs of plastic capped bottles [milk, cider, juice].
I've made fan-fold "birds" of plain sturdy paper & dangled or swooped them on strings, i've twitched soft-unstuffed flat toys on fishing poles, i've used oversized feathers bundled on threadlike string as drag lures.
.
A ball of crumpled paper, foil, or a crackly Mylar pom-pom is cheap, fun to chase, & recyclable / replaceable [Mylar can't be recycled, but it's very, very durable].
.
Home-made felt toys with a velcro pocket for catnip pellets are simple & easy to make.
Open the pocket, drop in 3 or 4 pellets, seal it, put the pellets in the freezer in a zip-lock bag to protect the motherlode from staling.
.
Use catnip spray [botanical extract in a pump-spray bottle] to entice a jaded cat, on the scratch posts, a cardboard ripping plank, toys to bat & kill & carry & kick, the resting shelf to roll on it.
.
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offer culinary herbs as scent toys, a twig of rosemary or thyme or oregano.
.
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there are oodles of ways to enrich an indoor cat's life; wall-mounted running wheels are great for exercise.
.
Tossing Puss outside to harass the neighbors, spray & poop wherever, & kill local wildlife is the cheap & dirty, irresponsible option -
in my considered opinion, & in my lifetime experience.
.
Our Siamese queens lived to be 19 & 21, respectively - dam & daughter.
Our "farm cats" lived an outdoor-only life that averaged 3-years, birth to death.
In that time, each killed hundreds of animals THAT * I * SAW, & very likely thousands that i didn't, directly or indirectly. 
.
the co$t of roaming cats is too high.
Shedding oocytes of Toxo in neighbor's gardens, into local waterways & groundwater, etc, is criminally careless.
It needs to stop.
.
my garden, my yard, my neighborhood - my park, my beach, my shrub-lined bike & walking path, are not YOUR cats' litter-boxes.
They can p*ss & sh!t at home, & their keepers can properly dispose of it.
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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

I find I've become less emotive about this subject over the years. When I first kept cats indoors (nearly 20 years ago) it was fairly rare and I did feel judged by both cat owners and anyone I mentioned it to (such as work colleagues). I felt quite defensive. Now it's much more common but, more importantly, I've become more knowledgeable about cats and I feel comfortable in my decision to keep them as totally indoor cats. I'm happy to keep MY cats indoors but I don't judge others who choose to let their cats have outdoor access. I may judge if it's done without thought regardless of environmental dangers etc but if someone thinks about it and chooses what they think is best for them and their cat, I don't judge. Risks and benefits. All we can do is weigh them up and make a decision we're comfortable with.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

@leashedForLife you've made it clearly apparent on many posts in the past that the US has a totally different attitude towards cats and your posts come across very derogatory towards those who dare to go against what you suggest. We're not the US, we do not have dangerous larger predators to potentially harm/kill our cats & the attitude towards free roaming cats is ( mostly ) vastly different. Over there you are also able to de-claw cats which is barbaric & crop dogs ears also. If you don't like cats ( which seems quite evident from your posts ) I fail to see why you feel so passionately about it either way.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Dogloverlou said:


> @leashedForLife you've made it clearly apparent on many posts in the past that the US has a totally different attitude towards cats and your posts come across very derogatory towards those who dare to go against what you suggest. We're not the US, we do not have dangerous larger predators to potentially harm/kill our cats & the attitude towards free roaming cats is ( mostly ) vastly different. Over there you are also able to de-claw cats which is barbaric & crop dogs ears also. If you don't like cats ( which seems quite evident from your posts ) I fail to see why you feel so passionately about it either way.


Agreed. Couldn't put it any better.

Those without sin cast the first stone. I wouldn't claim to be a perfect cat owner, but I don't judge people who are ultimately doing what they feel is right for their individual cat, when they are given an informed choice. Each cat is an individual, with their own needs and desires.



Jesthar said:


> Not quite accurate, they chase and pounce because of hardwired instinct, not for fun. The same way Border Collies instinctively herd, sight hounds and terriers instinctively chase, handreared birds of prey follow a lure etc. We may like to think that they chase their toys just for fun (probably beecause we anthropomorphise our own enjoyment of seeing them do it  ), but for them it's as natural and as satisfying a behaviour as scratching their claws.


Indeed. Cats might _enjoy _the hunt & kill, but this not mean it's an active decision on the cats part to be nasty, it's her instinct. They aren't nasty animals. The only nasty animal is a human being.



Jesthar said:


> From the sound of it, the general attitude to cat ownership in the US is very different from the UK, which is a shame. My two cats are very much individually loved, their very different personalitles known and appreciated, and their quirks catered to. And for Charlie-girl, one of her 'quirks' is she _genuinely _gets depressed if forced to remain indoors 24/7. I could no more justify forcing her to live as an indoor cat than I could justify the horror of declawing her in case she scratches furniture (thankfully declawing is banned over here  ). For her, it would be a similar level of torment. She came to me as a rehome used to free roaming over fields all day and night as she chose. That she's happy with going out for a few hours most evenings (usually her first act when I get in is to head to the back door and ask to be let out) is fine by me.


This is it, you know your cat more than anyone else.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
a word about Toxo-g human infection rates, globally:
Infection rates differ dramatically from country to country or region to region, around the world.
Being a vegetarian doesn't protect U from Toxo, not even vegans or fruitarians are exempt; dirty water to wash produce or fruit can carry oocytes, which are incredibly hardy & are not killed by chlorine or other standard municipal water-supply treatments.
SOIL is readily contaminated by cat feces, & scrubbing root crops is a heckuva lot easier than removing *Every* oocyte from a bunch of salad-greens or herbs.
It takes only 1 oocyte to infect an ingesting human; the post-infestation period can be entirely symptomless, most often it is just a few days of vague mono-like symps of tired, yucky, maybe a 0.5-degree to 1-degree fever at night that isn't even noticed.
THE * INFESTATION * IS * LIFELONG.
Once infected, U cannot "remove" the Toxo parasites; for many years, they were thot to be innocuous in adults, & only dangerous to pre-natal & infants.
.
that turns out to be wrong.
Toxo is strongly associated with various risk-taking behavior: as 1 example, over 75% of drivers who die in high-speed auto crashes test positive for Toxo after death.
Similarly, Toxo+ drivers are over 2X as likely to be involved in accidents of all kinds.
Suicide & homicide rates per 100K citizens are strongly linked to infection rates; the higher Toxo rates, the more human deaths by self or othe in that popn.
.
in ppl with compromised immune-fXn, Toxo is not inert; it suddenly becomes ferociously active.
HIV / AIDS patients in Europe & the U-S died of Toxo in the 1980s in large #s; 30% of patients in some Euro nations, 1 in 10 across the entire U-S, varying by regional infection-rates. Tennis-ball-sized Toxo lesions developed in their brains.
This is not old, irrelevent news:
during the 2016 Prez campaign, a Toxo-drug maker jacked up the price of their Tx for immunocompromised ppl, & it was a hot topic in public health again. 
.
Here's a partial list of ailments linked to Toxo:
migraines
depression
bipolar disporder
heightened aggro
OCD
rheumatoid arthritis
Parkinson's
obesity
Alzheimer's
infertility [both sexes]
brain cancers
.
a Univ of Chicago recent study found road-rage also correlates with Toxo+ persons.
.
Dr Jaroslav Flegr has found that Toxo+ Ms are more suspicious & dogmatic, while Fs are more social & sharper dressers than uninfected Fs. In both sexes, Toxo+ persons are more guilt-prone.
.
SCHIZOPHRENIA is the single human medical issue most-closely linked to Toxo-infection.
It was virtually nonexistent B4 the early-1880s, when it is 1st recorded in various medical treatises, & it may well be caused by other modern factors or exacerbated by non-Toxo issues of our day.
However, it is clearly true that the 1800s were the period when cat ownership began to climb, & began to live in our homes, rather than in barns or under the porch, & that's precisely when schizophrenia began its rise to the present day.
In a 1995 iss of The Schizophrenia Bulletin [a medical journal of research] Robt Yolken, a pediatric virologist at Johns Hopkins Univ, & E. Fuller Torrey, the assoc-Dir of Stanley Medical Research Institute, wrote abt the idea of a "typhoid tabby", including such events as the schizo-spike in ppl born during the 'hunger winter' of 1944 / 45 in Holland, when starving pregnant women supposedly ate cats.
They also included the results of their study: 51% of mentally-ill adults they surveyed grew-up with a cat or more, vs 38% of mentally-normal adults in the same popn.
The only other facor that differed between the 2 groups was breast-fed vs bottle-fed rates.
They repeated the survey later, controlling for dogs in the home to be sure schizo-kids were not simply more-likely to have pets; again, schizophrenics were more-likely to have had a childhood cat, while dog-ownership rates were similar to healthy ppl.
Initially, Torrey & Yolken thot feline retroviruses might be the culprits, but Toxo continues to be strongly linked to various mental disorders in current research, & particularly to schizophrenia - a devastating illness that often arises in young adulthood.
.
approx 1 in 3 humans, globally, are Toxo+.
Anti-psychotic drugs have been curiously effective at fighting Toxo infection *before* it enters its dormant / brain-dwelling, lifelong stage.
.
S Korea has the lowest Toxo-infection rate [7%].
S America, southern Europe, & parts of Africa are vying for top placement, with up to 80% of their popn infected.
In the U-S, it runs 10 to 40%.
.
a cultural preference for raw or rare meat, plus certain livestock, also pair with raised infection rates.
Swine are especially susceptible to Toxo, & Dr J B Dubey, the world expert on Toxo [U-S Dept of Ag research center, Md] says cats should be kept entirely away from hogs; no barn cats around pigs, no cats in pastures, no feline waste on soil or near water sources, zip, nada, zilch.
.
.
all of this says nothing about WILDLIFE & Toxo, which has now gone entirely around the world; oocytes are virtually unkillable, they float in bleach & are viable as soon as it dries up.
Toxo is now on every continent & island where cats are [or were] found; it's above the Arctic circle, in belugas & polar bears; it kills otters off the western coast of the U-S, from Calif to Washington state.
It's especially devastating where cats are *not* native; roos, wallabies, & other Aussie indigenes are killed by Toxo; they did not co-evolve with felines & it does not go dormant in them, their immune systems are overwhelmed.
.
I'll discuss the FX on wildlife in another comment; for now, suffice to say that cat-borne Toxo is a human public-health concern, & cats are the designated transmitter of Toxo-g; only in cat intestines does the parasite *breed* & shed eggs / oocytes via feces.
.
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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

I bought a can of elephant-repellent, and since I bought it, there has been no elephants in the house.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
actually, i don't think cat-keeping in the U-S is different from cat-keeping in the U-K.
Y'all do. 
.
What percentage of cats picked up stray in the UK are reunited with owners / claimed by their families, from shelters?
.
in the U-S, over 80% of dogs found with collars are claimed by owners, or are reunited via microchip or tags; on average, 10% of stray cats who are human-friendly are claimed by owners in the U-S, tho this varies slightly by region; it never even approaches the 80% claimed rate enjoyed by stray dogs in ACCs.
.
.
but cat-owners who do not live in dense cityscapes or on the 20th floor of an apt-building are just as likely to let their cats roam as UK-owners, along suburban cul-de-sacs & town streets, in rural & burban ares with an acre or more per lot, & in under-1-acre developments with wooded copses between homes... such as my Lexington clients' neighborhood.
.
U-S cat owners may or may not show their pets; moggies can be shown as SHDs or LHDs, purebreds within their own breed.
U-S cat owners buy toys, special treats, beds, carry-bags / crates, take their cats along on cabin or cottage vacays or hire sitters to come by / stay with their pets.
.
some cities & towns ban free-roaming cats, but in Va Beach [where i lived for 12-years] owners flagrantly ignore the law.
.
The 75% year-round cat-attack intake of Wildlife Response, Inc, is clear evidence of the impact of cats on wildlife; ALL * OTHER * CAUSES of injury, illness, or orphaning made up no more than 25% of intake, all year, & fell to 10% of intake during Spring nesting / fledging, & Autumn small-mammal nesting [when rabbits & squirrels have another litter B4 winter].
.
.
think of that:
frostbite in pelicans, fishhooks in gulls or ducks, auto-accidents, window strikes, dog attacks, childrewn kidnapping young birds or mammals, infectious disease, starvation, parasite infestation, toxic algae, hyper- or hypothermia, thirst, trauma, & every other possible cause of injury, illness, or loss, are all between 10% & 25% at MOST of the reasons wildlife come into care, every year -
while cats are the cause, 3 out of 4 times year-round, & 9 out of 10 times during nesting seasons Spring & Fall.
.
.
at least 1/3 of all U-S cats are allowed to roam at least some of the time.
Only high-rise dwellers & dense urban dwellers in high-traffic areas keep cats consistently indoors for their lifetime.
.
I don't think U-S cat-owners are any less attached than U-K cat-owners; i think the primary reason that cats here are not reunited with their families is DISTANCE.
Catsbmay not go far on their own, but friendly cats are often taken in or taken up by passing cat-lovers, & the shelter they arrive at is not necessarily the one nearest home.
Universal chipping is a long way off, altho it is slowly growing; keeping the FILE current is equally critical, as the U-S average resident moves home every 2-years.
A 2-yr-old address or outdated vet contact is useless for contacting the owner of a found cat.
"Hijacked" pet cats have been found over 2K miles from home, only b/c they did have chips, when they wandered off or were surrendered by their catnappers.
Sometimes there is a gap of years, & the catnapper ages & dies, leaving their survivors to take the kitty to a shelter... where the chip reveals a far-distant owner, states away.
.
.
I also don't think U-K wildlife are any less impacted by Toxo, cat-predation, & indirect affects of roaming cats, compared to U-S wildlife.
The mere presence of a cat silhouette in research has prompted songbird parents to visit their nests less often, reducing their nesting success -
& obv, a plastic cat did not kill any nestlings.
SEEING the supposed cat worried the parent birds, they avoid the nest, & fewer nestlings survive to fledge. The data is mathematically simple, & human behavior is at the root of it.
.
.
TNR is not a viable "solution" for abandoned / feral / "community" cats.
No colony that i've everheard of has gone to zero, in over 30-yrs of TNR & 'managed' colonies.
Fewer than 2% of free-roaming / outdoor non-pet ats are desexed.
.
an estimated 2% of all cats around the world are excreting oocytes at any one time; the world's soil, water, & air are practically saturated with Toxo.
Human outbreaks have occurred from water [a Canadian reservoir & municipal tap-water] & inhaled eggs [a horse stable in Georgia, USA, with barn cats].
.
.
the U-K is not a special case, other than a cultural perception that "cats *need* to go outside", which is very rarewly true.
Even when cats do go out, confining or controlling them should be the responsible owner's default - since NOT confining them & NOT controlling them causes serious issues for their neighbors, community, & the local ecos.
.
Irresponsible cat-owners, IME of over 40-years, abound. & that's not "special" - it's sad. 
Cats, humans, & wildlife deserve better.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.fixed.

.
.
.


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## catlover3958 (Jan 3, 2017)

I don't think it's cruel. I think it gets more complicated if you take a one 'free to roam' kitty and then keep them indoors. They know what's outside and may long to be out again. My kitty is an indoor cat because we live in a flat. She sometimes sits and watches the world go by outside but she's mostly content being inside with her toys. We spend quite a lot of our time in the flat so she usually has company and little chance to get bored.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2017)

Dogloverlou said:


> @leashedForLife you've made it clearly apparent on many posts in the past that the US has a totally different attitude towards cats and your posts come across very derogatory towards those who dare to go against what you suggest. We're not the US, we do not have dangerous larger predators to potentially harm/kill our cats & the attitude towards free roaming cats is ( mostly ) vastly different. Over there you are also able to de-claw cats which is barbaric & crop dogs ears also. If you don't like cats ( which seems quite evident from your posts ) I fail to see why you feel so passionately about it either way.


Please don't assume from one poster's rants that they speak for all of the US or that their attitude is representative of most of the US. It's not.

I have outdoor cats. They come in if they want to, or like this weekend when the weather is going to get bad, they will stay inside, but they prefer to be outside, and I won't leave them and the dogs alone together.

We live very rurally on 20 acres. The cats do kill, but they're not killing anything that the local predators aren't. Where we live there are bobcats, BOP, coyotes, plenty of snakes, possums, raccoons, etc, that all feast on the same fare that the cats do. And frankly, I'm happy for the cats to keep the rodents out from under the house and help the resident blacksnake at the barn keep the rodent population down.

Our cats earn their keep if you will. I'm glad for them to. 
They're predator savvy, know how to stay safe, and like I said, tame enough to tolerate a few nights inside when the temps get low. We've always kept cats this way, and when they get old and less able to avoid predators, they become more inside cats than outside cats. And are happy to. Our last cat lived to be 18, only going outside supervised in his last few years.

I do think allowing your cat to molest neighbors property is not cool, but our cats don't roam that far. How do I know you say? Because any time of day or night I can go outside, call, and they come. They couldn't do that if they were acres away at the neighbor's house.

IMHO with the right set-up, be it a rural setting like ours, or a cat proofed garden, or supervised outside time, or whatever works, there are ways to responsibly have outdoor cats. 
But at the end of the day, I don't generally want people telling me how to care for my animals, so I tend not to judge too harshly how others keep theirs 

In the US, most rural folks are going to have outside cats. Lots of city folks have inside cats, and there is of course everything in between. Pretty much just like you might see in the UK. The major difference being that cats aren't predating on anything that other predators are.


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## Nualal (May 24, 2015)

I adopted my cat from Cats Protection and they told me I had to keep the cat indoors, due to how close I lived to a busy main road. Most of the time he seems fine though, and happy to lead a lazy life indoors. But I have felt guilty sometimes, wondering if the cat sees me more like a prison guard, than a carer. (But the fact that I didn't choose to keep him indoors, and rather was advised to keep him indoors by a professional organisation has eased the guilt....a little). *How do others cope with the guilt?*


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Nualal said:


> I adopted my cat from Cats Protection and they told me I had to keep the cat indoors, due to how close I lived to a busy main road. Most of the time he seems fine though, and happy to lead a lazy life indoors. But I have felt guilty sometimes, wondering if the cat sees me more like a prison guard, than a carer. (But the fact that I didn't choose to keep him indoors, and rather was advised to keep him indoors by a professional organisation has eased the guilt....a little). *How do others cope with the guilt?*


I feel no guilt, I know my cats are safe, I am not waiting with baited brath to see if they come home or awaiting a phone call that they are in the vets hurt, or been found dead. I don't have to worry about letting them out one day and them never coming home and the despair of what has happened to them. Happiness that they are not filling someone elses garden with poo or killing wildlife.

Your cat is happy, you have no reason to feel guilty. The big outdoors is not a utopia for cats, it is a place full of hazards


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Nualal said:


> I adopted my cat from Cats Protection and* they told me I had to keep the cat indoors, due to how close I lived to a busy main road*. Most of the time he seems fine though, and happy to lead a lazy life indoors. But I have felt guilty sometimes, wondering if the cat sees me more like a prison guard, than a carer. (But the fact that I didn't choose to keep him indoors, and rather was advised to keep him indoors by a professional organisation has eased the guilt....a little). *How do others cope with the guilt?*


Firstly I have to say I'm surprised (though delighted) that CP actually allowed you to adopt a cat under these stipulations.
Most members experiences have been (mine included) that all cats must have outdoor access and would therefore have refused to allow the adoption on the grounds of a busy road.

With regards to your question..........
No guilt felt here,what would make me feel guilty would be allowing free roaming,not something I'm comfortable with at all.
I have never had and never will have a cat that is allowed to wander freely,I now have a run with a tunnel attached which allows safe access to the outdoors for Meeko but before that all cats were indoors only and perfectly happy and I didn't have to worry about them being injured or worse.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
speaking of "missing kitties", another vivid experience that would be missed,
not so much by the cat in Q but by the owner here on PF-uk, is the opportunity to post a *gasp*, 'My cat didn't come home!...' thread, & suck-up all that sympathy. 
The drama! the pathos! - the chance to stiffen that upper lip!
The updates! The posters plastered on curbside poles!
Pleas on local CraigsList for ppl to look for her or him, & please phone if seen!
Asking neighbors U've never met to look in their garage or toolshed!
Talking to the postie, schoolchildren, joggers!...
.
.
anyone who mentions that all this could have been avoided by *not* letting Kitty roam, is brusquely told to stick a sock in their pie-hole & shut up, if they don't feel any empathy.
.
The difficulty is, all -My- empathy is for the cat, either missing & frightened, or possibly injured, ill, or dead. S/he may be quietly holed-up somewhere, or even reveling in the bosom of a new family, or cowering under a porch, trying to avoid dogs, loud traffic, nasty ppl, or just plain lost.
But where the missing cat ISN'T is 'at home', assuming s/he is alive; at home in all senses, relaxed, comfortable with familiar sights, scents, sounds, & routines.
Dead cats are not suffering; a missing cat who's been patronizing multiple "homes" may not be suffering in the least, they're just at an alternate address.
.
But missing cats who are very-much alive can be suffering, & that is both sad & generally preventable.
I find it very hard to pat someone on the back soothingly & offer comforting phrases when they're the very person who opened the door for Puss, or installed the cat-flap, & now they want hand-holding & metaphorical hot, sweet tea by the hogshead.

.
U weren't FORCED * AT * GUNPOINT to open the bl**dy door, U chose to.
Stop whimpering for sympathy & go look for Ur cat, fax photo-posters to nearby vets' offices, phone the nearest ACC, call the local Council, put an ad on CraigsList with a phone-number to be texted [turn the phone off when U go to bed; U do need to sleep sometime!], & for Bastet's sake, vow not to let Ur cat roam again if U get her/him back.
Quit asking for sympathy when U made a risky choice, & Ur cat is paying for that gamble.
.
.
There hasn't been a contiguous fortnight without at least *one!* pathetic 'missing cat' thread, & often there are several simultaneously.
But we're all supposed to commiserate politely, rather than point out the obvious.

.
.
.
.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

It's not cruel keeping some cats indoors but it can be for others. One of mine is so outdoorsy that even locking her in for a night causes distress. I could force her to stay in and I tried for months but she escaped from the cat proofed garden or sat meowing day and night.

The other could have been happy as an indoor cat in another home. I fully intended him to be an indoor cat but after a year of him pooing in the house my last resort was to let him out. It fixed things for a while until he started spraying then pooing again so maybe it was pointless allowing him out. He doesn't really go out much anyway so I'm sure he would have thrived in a cat proofed garden with a friend to play with. 

I don't think all cats can be indoor cats and I don't think it's fair keeping those who are miserable inside as indoor cats. However there are always exceptions, perhaps the cat can't go out for safety reasons or health reasons and rehoming would never work.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

While what's written below is hard to read, I applaud your bravery, leashedForLife, in writing it, because it is exactly how I feel when reading those 'lost cat' threads. And no, I don't lack compassion, and I certainly don't gloat in anyway, as an indoors-only cat owner.... I just feel very sad for the owner, and desperate for the cat, and utterly frustrated at the total unnecessary waste of it all.....



leashedForLife said:


> .
> speaking of "missing kitties", another vivid experience that would be missed,
> not so much by the cat in Q but by the owner here on PF-uk, is the opportunity to post a *gasp*, 'My cat didn't come home!...' thread, & suck-up all that sympathy.
> The drama! the pathos! - the chance to stiffen that upper lip!
> ...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Nualal said:


> I adopted my cat from Cats Protection and they told me I had to keep the cat indoors, due to how close I lived to a busy main road. Most of the time he seems fine though, and happy to lead a lazy life indoors. But I have felt guilty sometimes, wondering if the cat sees me more like a prison guard, than a carer. (But the fact that I didn't choose to keep him indoors, and rather was advised to keep him indoors by a professional organisation has eased the guilt....a little). *How do others cope with the guilt?*


If you are able to cat-proof your back garden then he will be safe and can enjoy going out. Not all gardens can be done easily & cheaply, but there are solutions for most gardens.


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## Pepperpots (Apr 3, 2016)

I think it is up to the individual and the needs of the cats. My cats are not happy being inside. Yes, there are hazards outside. But there are hazards for me and I don't stay inside all the time. I have thought about it a lot and kept the cats in for months due to health/age issues, but ultimately my rescues have so much more fun and are more settled if they can go outside. If they had been happy inside, I probably would have kept them in. If they are run over I will be incredibly upset, but ultimately for them it is a risk I need to take for them to live a happy life. If I could cat proof my garden I would, but I can't and they love exploring.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> While what's written below is hard to read, I applaud your bravery, leashedForLife, in writing it, because it is exactly how I feel when reading those 'lost cat' threads. And no, I don't lack compassion, and I certainly don't gloat in anyway, as an indoors-only cat owner.... I just feel very sad for the owner, and desperate for the cat, and utterly frustrated at the total unnecessary waste of it all.....


Thank you for posting the above,my sentiments too,I just feel so sad that what was a tragic accident could have been avoided


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## Pepperpots (Apr 3, 2016)

Yes, things can be avoided, but you do have to factor in the cost to the animals well being. Some cats are perfectly happy being indoors only. Some, even with lots of company, cats toys and trees, walks on harness etc, simply do not thrive. I think it is important to look at these things on a case by case basis. Life is never black and white.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> 
> Quit asking for sympathy when U made a risky choice, & Ur cat is paying for that gamble.
> .
> ...


Life is full of risks, we all make assessments & use our judgement to make decisions for our pets ....sometimes we make the wrong ones, other times we were just unlucky. How nasty to be so judgemental to an owner who has gone through the worry of a missing cat to be told they are responsible for their cats death (if the worst does happen) when all they were doing was (in their opinion) making the right choice for their cat.

Do you think that owner who let their dogs offlead then lose them that they are too blame & we shouldn't offer sympathy? Maybe no dog should ever be let offlead in case this happens .... after all there is a risk that s/he will b*gger off isn't there?

I have owned cats all my life & none have ever gone missing, none have ever been involved in accidents, all have lived long & healthy lives .... with the exception of the two who lived indoors .... but am not blaming that as a reason for them having to be pts early, it was just unfortunate .

My cats currently enjoy being outside & that's a risk I take with them. Having said that I know plenty of indoor cats who are perfectly happy .... it's the owners decision & no one should be so judgemental as to tell an owner what's right or wrong .... especially those who just seem to pop up to spout the same old nonsense on these threads in the cats section


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Its up to owners whether they let their cats out or not - you have to way up the risks, location of where you live etc etc.

I have always let my cats out - the area has always been a cul-de-sac and I have yet to have one go missing - its the risk I take. My garden is terribly small and just awful and my cat Bear likes to go outside in the cul-de-sac but generally spends most of his time inside sleeping. I don't let him out at night but only because he would wake me up during the night wanting to come inside.

I'd probably rather in future, when I am moved out of area to somewhere with a bigger garden and more rural may perhaps secure my garden and also lead train future cats - no way possibly with my current aggressive bugger.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> speaking of "missing kitties", another vivid experience that would be missed,
> not so much by the cat in Q but by the owner here on PF-uk, is the opportunity to post a *gasp*, 'My cat didn't come home!...' thread, & suck-up all that sympathy.
> The drama! the pathos! - the chance to stiffen that upper lip!
> ...


Wow. What a judgemental & frankly shocking post.

Those desperately upset & worried owners are looking for sympathy, whiny & pathetic? You seem to have this deluded thinking that those who allow their cats outside don't love them the same as those who keep them indoors. Why would you post in someone's 'missing cat' thread with the vile insults you've just posted? Not the time or place and certainly not of any help.

Do you also believe those who suffer similar fates with their dogs buggering off/getting attacked/allowed loose off lead etc etc are pathetic & whiny also??


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

It is one thing to not feel any sympathy for someone whose pet has gone missing but to lump them all together as vile human beings is not acceptable. Not all cats that go missing have been deliberately let out and allowed to roam, some do manage to sneak past safeguards, even the odd Houdini manages to get out of a cat-proofed garden.
There but for the Grace of God, is often my thought and a little human compassion does not go amiss.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Sorry but I can't read Leased for Life's posts... and I mean I literally cannot read them.. makes me brain hurt with the dots, stars, capitals etc


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> speaking of "missing kitties", another vivid experience that would be missed,
> not so much by the cat in Q but by the owner here on PF-uk, is the opportunity to post a *gasp*, 'My cat didn't come home!...' thread, & suck-up all that sympathy.
> The drama! the pathos! - the chance to stiffen that upper lip!
> ...


Most cat guardians on the forum love their cats and do the best they can. None of us claim to be the perfect pet owner. I find the above kind of post, at best to be unsympathetic, unhelpful and rude. At worst, it is nasty and vile. Please don't ever post anything nasty like this on a a "missing" thread.

This debate was actually quite interesting, with people - politely and passionately - sharing their opinions and experiences with their cats. But then someone upsets the apple cart posting judgemental, nasty rants. I wasn't aware @leashedForLife was the perfect pet owner....he without sin cast the first stone.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> especially those who just seem to pop up to spout the same old nonsense on these threads in the cats section


I don't think comments like this help the debate either....

Now, I don't know leashedforlife at all, and s/he does have a very definite way of putting his/her views across, but I get it - sometimes being really, really heartbroken for the animals who suffer when humans make wrong decisions (and I'm not saying ALL humans, or bandying names about, and I have compassion stamped through me like a stick of rock!) makes us angry, and desperate, and frustrated - surely we can ALL identify with that?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> I don't think comments like this help the debate either....
> 
> Now, I don't know leashedforlife at all, and s/he does have a very definite way of putting his/her views across, but I get it - sometimes being really, really heartbroken for the animals who suffer when humans make wrong decisions (and I'm not saying ALL humans, or bandying names about, and I have compassion stamped through me like a stick of rock!) makes us angry, and desperate, and frustrated - surely we can ALL identify with that?


Maybe not but then constantly telling cat owners who let their cats outside doesn't either. My frustrations with this member are that they never contribute to the cat section unless it's to criticise owners & post about how wildlife is single handedly beingd destroyed by outdoor cats.

And to tell owners who have lost cats this is just nasty IMO


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Maybe not but then constantly telling cat owners who let their cats outside doesn't either. My frustrations with this member are that they never contribute to the cat section unless it's to criticise owners & post about how wildlife is single handedly beingd destroyed by outdoor cats.
> 
> And to tell owners who have lost cats this is just nasty IMO


Well said. It was in 2009 when my cat Toby was run over and killed instantly. I decided after that if I get another cat it will be infoors with a catproof garden or a harness and lead.


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## Darrenw1985 (Aug 27, 2016)

Kenneth Flemming said:


> I have two cats a male and female which im currently keeping as indoor cats, id like to let them out but dont trust the lads and their big dogs by mine as ive heard they let their dogs chase d cats; plus their are busy roads close by. Am i cruel keeping them as indoor cats?


No definitely not cruel..as long as they have a litter tray that's changed regularly and plenty of food..water..places they can chill out around the house..our 2 cats are very much indoor cats..which is purely down to their choice..do you have a conservatory or anything like that?
You do what u think is right...as long as ur cat is relaxed and has enough stuff of theirs around the house then they be fine.


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## Char8607 (Dec 4, 2016)

Growing up we had cats and they were always allowed our; to me there was no question about indoor vs outdoor because being outdoor was the 'norm' and I hadn't really thought about an alternative. My parents continue to live in the family home which is near a busy road and continue to have a cat; maybe they have been lucky or blessed but their cats have always passed away due to illness or old age, never a road accident.

Fast forward a few years to when I got my two boys as very young kittens and I felt this instant need to protect them from not only the two main roads we live by but also some of the people (it's not the most salubrious of areas!) They were stunning boys and I worried constantly about them being stolen or hurt.

However as time went on it became very clear that they did want a glimpse of the great outdoors. We did move house for a few years but then have ended up back in our original house (long story). The second house had a lovely big garden and was a nice area and relatively quiet in terms of traffic. So we began to let them out but only when we were with them and then they'd come straight in again. 

When we moved back to the busy/not so nice area we continued to do this and it's worked well for us and the cats (well now just Storm).

I think it very much depends on you, your cats and your situation and only you will know all those details. What works for one cat may not for another and ultimately as long as a cat is happy then surely there is not wrong or right?!

Good luck with whatever you choose


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, lymorelynn:

It is one thing to not feel any sympathy for someone whose pet has gone missing...

/QUOTE
.
.
As i already said, my sympathies are for the cat - who is the innocent in this, despite their culpability in anything else [killing critters, p*ssing on other cats' domains & causing great upset, sh!tting in private or public spaces & causing resentment, anger & ill-feeling plus carrying disease which is clearly fatal to other species, & so forth].
I fail to see why i should feel a great wash of heartbreak for the owner, WHO I did clearly stipulate ALLOWED THEIR THEORETICALLY-BELOVED PET TO ROAM BY CHOICE. They rolled the dice; their cat lost. Hopefully not terminal for the cat, but HBC as just one hazard among many can carry devastating lifelong consequences - such as paralysis, epilepsy, & more.

QUOTE, lymorelynn:

...but to lump... all [those owners who let cats roam at large] together as _*vile human beings*_ is not acceptable.

Not all cats that go missing have been deliberately let out and allowed to roam, some do manage to sneak past safeguards, even the odd Houdini manages to get out of a cat-proofed garden.
There but for the Grace of God, is often my thought and a little human compassion does not go amiss.

/QUOTE
.
.
i didn't call those owners collectively _"vile human beings" - _U did. I called them irresponsible.
.
AND - for the umpteenth time! - i am not speaking of cats who leap out 2nd-story screened windows [as Cocoa, my elder-sis' Siamese did once, when in heat] or otherwise *"escape" *from their safe home or from a garden that the owner thot was escape-proof, or similar UNINTENDED incidents of free-roaming cats. I hope that is now crystal-clear?
.
I am very-specifically calling the bluff of owners who do, deliberately, **choose** willfully to set their cats loose on their neighbors & their community, & yes, irresponsibly ignore all the fallout of that specific, personal decision for everyone outside their own household.
.
.
here is a sample of the [to my mind] delusional self-rationalizing by one such owner - Pepperpots, as see above in post #74:
QUOTE,
_"*If they are run over, I will be incredibly upset*, *but *ultimately for [my cats], [*being run-over*] *is a risk I need to take* *for* [*my cats*] *to live a happy life*._
.
.
Doesn't that strike anyone else as oxymoronic? -- "a short life, but a happy one..." - Anyone remember where that came from? - _'Archy & Mehitabel',_ & Mehitabel the alley-cat didn't have any glorified fictional life; the author had her give birth to yet-another litter of kittens in a barrel, where they drowned in the next rainstorm. She's often hungry, the toms harass her, other cats fight with her & she with them - it's a very gritty, realistic life, even tho it's complete fiction, as Mehitabel can speak to Archy, & Archy can type her memoirs.
.
.
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> I am very-specifically calling the bluff of owners who do, deliberately, **choose** willfully to set their cats loose on their neighbors & their community, & yes, irresponsibly ignore all the fallout of that specific, personal decision for everyone outside their own household.
> .
> .
> ...


Again.... you are picking what you believe to be the owners thoughts & again you are wrong. I do not ignore the 'fallout' at all, I know the risks & I choose to accept that that's what they are .... a risk. Just as when I let my dogs offlead .... a risk they may b*gger off, when I drive ... a risk I may be involved in an accident .... the list is endless.

If you ever have cats & choose to not let them out then fine but to tell everyone regardless of their location, regardless of their cat that they are wrong is just ignorant.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
just a statistic, but in Nov-2006 the Daily Fail quoted a study that cited 230,000 cats "killed by cars" annually in the UK.
.
A quarter-million deaths in 1 species is significant, & U'd think that would be sufficient to encourage cat-owners to keep their cats safely confined - but apparently not.
.
.
Note that in 2015, a petition to "make it illegal" to hit a cat with one's vehicle AND NOT REPORT THE IMPACT was being promoted, & the same '230K' stat for cat-fatalities was quoted.
I'm fairly sure that in 9-yrs, that stat would change, & odds are overwhelming that it went up, not down.
That stat doesn't include cats who survive being hit; many need surgery or at least stitches after a car-strike, & many will have lifelong souvenirs: head injuries can cause paralysis, blind / deaf / epilepsy, crippling headaches, & more; spinal injuries, internal injuries, blood loss / stroke / clots & complications, limb loss / amputation, organ damage, etc.
.
.
Cars are only 1 of the hazards of the outside world; personally, i think it's pretty asinine to demand that drivers report their striking cats, when odds are good that the cat's OWNER (assuming there is an owner) turned her or him loose to wander.
If the owner is willing to gamble that their "dear, sweet kitty" will come home uninjured, whole, & healthy from these unsupervised excursions, why should drivers have to inform the authorities when they hit a cat?
Letting cats risk life & limb, as well as health & safety, doesn't imply the owner worries overmuch about Fluffy, & if s/he doesn't come home for a fortnight & isn't in the local pound, i don't think the burden of providing the owner with "closure" should fall on a total stranger driving her or his car, going about their personal business when their vehicle intersects with the path of a cat.
.
who's going to tell U that Kitty was shot, poisoned, fell from a tree limb or fence & was impaled on fence-pickets, was mauled or killed outright by a dog or a wild animal or a domesticated animal for that matter, as my stud-colt loved to chase & try to bite or stomp fleeing animals?... including my dog & my cat.
.
if U put them out there, stuff happens. A car is exceedingly unlikely to hit Ur cat while said cat lounges on the sofa in the family room.
.
if U [generic all-inclusive pronoun] choose to let Ur cat roam, don't expect buckets of empathic tears from me for YOUR loss when Kitty goes missing; my personal hope will be that Kitty was taken in by someone who will not let heer / him roam for the rest of their hopefully-long life.
That would be a fitting outcome, IMO.
.
.
.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> just a statistic, but in Nov-2006 the Daily Fail quoted a study that cited 230,000 cats "killed by cars" annually in the UK.
> .
> A quarter-million deaths in 1 species is significant, & U'd think that would be sufficient to encourage cat-owners to keep their cats safely confined - but apparently not.
> ...


This I agree with.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> just a statistic, but in Nov-2006 the Daily Fail quoted a study that cited 230,000 cats "killed by cars" annually in the UK.
> .
> A quarter-million deaths in 1 species is significant, & U'd think that would be sufficient to encourage cat-owners to keep their cats safely confined - but apparently not.
> ...


Makes sense to me too.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Kenneth Flemming said:


> I have two cats a male and female which im currently keeping as indoor cats, id like to let them out but dont trust the lads and their big dogs by mine as ive heard they let their dogs chase d cats; plus their are busy roads close by. Am i cruel keeping them as indoor cats?


No. Provide them with plenty of attention and interactive games, furniture they can climb and jump on, and a species appropriate diet (wet or raw no dry).

If you have a porch that can be cat proofed or a yard that can be enclosed and made cat safe, that would be nice for them and you. : )


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> just a statistic, but in Nov-2006 the Daily Fail quoted a study that cited 230,000 cats "killed by cars" annually in the UK.
> .
> A quarter-million deaths in 1 species is significant, & U'd think that would be sufficient to encourage cat-owners to keep their cats safely confined - but apparently not.
> ...


 But then a total of *194,477* people were killed or injured in reported RTA's in the UK during 2014 (according to a government report) .... do you then think that driving should be banned? Why do we take such risks in driving if there are so many deaths? ..... We do because we accept that there are risks & try to minimise them, but it will never be an activity that is 100% safe


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> @leashedForLife you've made it clearly apparent on many posts in the past that the US has a totally different attitude towards cats and your posts come across very derogatory towards those who dare to go against what you suggest. We're not the US, we do not have dangerous larger predators to potentially harm/kill our cats & the attitude towards free roaming cats is ( mostly ) vastly different. Over there you are also able to de-claw cats which is barbaric & crop dogs ears also. If you don't like cats ( which seems quite evident from your posts ) I fail to see why you feel so passionately about it either way.


LFL does not represent the whole of people in the USA or our attitudes. Americans are as diverse as any other culture. I think cats should be kept contained, but I know many people who do not, yes some of them are even friends haha. And most of them have had a cat disappear, been poisoned, be seriously injured in a fight or from being hit by a car, or killed.

Many of us are working hard to educate against and to ban declawing, but it is uphill work because vets don't want to lose their gravy train.

I do not agree that attitudes are vastly different, that's too wide of a generalization in my opinion, I've seen plenty of posts here from people complaining about neighbor cats let to roam and the problems they cause.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> I fail to see why i should feel a great wash of heartbreak for the owner, WHO I did clearly stipulate ALLOWED THEIR THEORETICALLY-BELOVED PET TO ROAM BY CHOICE. They rolled the dice; their cat lost. Hopefully not terminal for the cat, but HBC as just one hazard among many can carry devastating lifelong consequences - such as paralysis, epilepsy, & more.


So anyone who allows their cat outside access, even if they only potter around the garden doesn't actually love their cat at all? Do you even know how daft you sound making that kind of blanket assertion?




leashedForLife said:


> AND - for the umpteenth time! - i am not speaking of cats who leap out 2nd-story screened windows [as Cocoa, my elder-sis' Siamese did once, when in heat] or otherwise *"escape" *from their safe home or from a garden that the owner thot was escape-proof, or similar UNINTENDED incidents of free-roaming cats. I hope that is now crystal-clear?


Well, I jolly well hope your sister learned her lesson and had the poor cat spayed after that? Not neutering an indoor cat still carries the same massive health and wellbeing risks and is just as irresponsible as allowing an entire pet cat to roam.
.


leashedForLife said:


> I am very-specifically calling the bluff of owners who do, deliberately, **choose** willfully to set their cats loose on their neighbors & their community, & yes, irresponsibly ignore all the fallout of that specific, personal decision for everyone outside their own household.


But you aren't. I don't wilfully choose to 'set my cat loose' no matter what, she asks me - vocally and physically, to be allowed out. If it is denied to her for any longer than about a week, she becomes withdrawn, depressed, angry and miserable. It's not a case of not persisting, twice she has been confined for five weeks before being allowed out. She does not, cannot, adapt to being indoors only. And I'm sorry if you can't understand that I choose to assess the small risk of mishap whilst she is out (given that I live at the end of a very quiet cul-de-sac in a semi-rural location) as being less of a risk than the state of her mental health if she stays indoors.

My other cat hasn't asked to go out in weeks, and I'm perfectly happy with that, too. Again, her choice, not mine.




leashedForLife said:


> here is a sample of the [to my mind] delusional self-rationalizing by one such owner - Pepperpots, as see above in post #74:
> QUOTE





leashedForLife said:


> _"*If they are run over, I will be incredibly upset*, *but *ultimately for [my cats], [*being run-over*] *is a risk I need to take* *for* [*my cats*] *to live a happy life*._





leashedForLife said:


> .
> Doesn't that strike anyone else as oxymoronic? -- "a short life, but a happy one..." - Anyone remember where that came from? - _'Archy & Mehitabel',_ & Mehitabel the alley-cat didn't have any glorified fictional life; the author had her give birth to yet-another litter of kittens in a barrel, where they drowned in the next rainstorm. She's often hungry, the toms harass her, other cats fight with her & she with them - it's a very gritty, realistic life, even tho it's complete fiction, as Mehitabel can speak to Archy, & Archy can type her memoirs.


Never heard of Mehitabel, but my Charlie-girl is no abandoned alley-cat. She's 11, neutered before the age of 6 months before having a single heat cycle, and came to me aged 5 from a her original home where she had 24/7 free-roaming access to fields. I love her to bits, so if a few hours outside in the evening keeps her happy whilst keeping her indoors makes her utterly miserable, I'm going to let her have her little bit of outside time pottering before supper in order for her to be happy. Do I worry about something happening? Of course I do. But I'm weighing that _chance_ against the _certainty_ of her misery as an indoor cat.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
as several persons on this thread have already said -
those few cats who are genuinely distressed by indoor-only lives aren't doomed to suffer.
There are multiple options, from cat-proof fencing on one's own garden (or a portion of it adjoining the house, if fencing the entire acreage is prohibitively expensive), to a free-standing screen house, a cat-run, a bump-out window bay, a screened "hanging porch" in a single window, & more.
There are simple options like a leash & harness, & architectural statements like feline Taj Majals - spend as much as U like, or as little as U must.
.
The point is not to inflict co$ts on the world at large, from one individual owner's desire to have a cat - or 2, ten, or sixty - as a pet.
Wildlife, the neighbors, parks, gardens, other indoor cats, & so on, SHOULD * NOT have to cover any part of the bill for anyone who wants a life-with-cat.
The cats themselves shouldn't be paying for the gamble, either.
Cats don't know the hazards in the outside world; we do. Curiosity & the thrill of hunting may lure them out, but "freedom" has a price-tag; it can be lethal, merely crippling, permanent loss, injury or illness for the cats.
.
The numerous side-effects borne by the community inflicted by roaming cats are costs foisted on them by owners.
Everything from Toxo in ringed-seals & sea-otters to the devastation of springtime nests - bird, mammal, reptile, amphibian, any nests.
I for one am bl**dy tired of picking up the tab for cat-owners.
.
.
.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> as several persons on this thread have already said -
> those few cats who are genuinely distressed by indoor-only lives aren't doomed to suffer.
> There are multiple options, from cat-proof fencing on one's own garden (or a portion of it adjoining the house, if fencing the entire acreage is prohibitively expensive),


Not possible due to the shape of the garden and the fence being 'owned' by five different gardens, plus a few other significant factors. Money is not an issue.



leashedForLife said:


> .to a free-standing screen house, a cat-run,


Tried at a friends, she's not happy confined in them either.



leashedForLife said:


> a bump-out window bay, a screened "hanging porch" in a single window, & more.


My house has a bay window already, plus a full length glass back door I paid extra for.



leashedForLife said:


> There are simple options like a leash & harness, & architectural statements like feline Taj Majals - spend as much as U like, or as little as U must.


I have a harness and leash, she refuses to walk on them.
.


leashedForLife said:


> The point is not to inflict co$ts on the world at large, from one individual owner's desire to have a cat - or 2, ten, or sixty - as a pet.
> Wildlife, the neighbors, parks, gardens, other indoor cats, & so on, SHOULD * NOT have to cover any part of the bill for anyone who wants a life-with-cat.
> The cats themselves shouldn't be paying for the gamble, either. Cats don't know the hazards in the outside world; we do. Curiosity & the thrill of hunting may lure them out, but "freedom" has a price-tag; it can be lethal, merely crippling, permanent loss, injury or illness for the cats.


Again, you say it 'can' be lethal. In the quiet area I reside in, I consider these risks less of a threat to Charlie-girl than the mental health issues forcing her to remain confined induces.



leashedForLife said:


> The numerous side-effects borne by the community inflicted by roaming cats are costs foisted on them by owners.
> Everything from Toxo in ringed-seals & sea-otters to the devastation of springtime nests - bird, mammal, reptile, amphibian, any nests.
> I for one am bl**dy tired of picking up the tab for cat-owners.
> .


If you mean cat poo, I have multiple litter trays and they both prefer to do their business there, not outside. I know, I clean them!

Incidentally, you never clarified if your sister did the responsible thing and spayed her poor Siamese. Although she should have been done before her first call to get the full health benefits, ohbviously.


----------



## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> That would be a fitting outcome, IMO..


We get it, @leashedForLife: You don't like cats or their imperfect owners. We got that message loud and clear. 
We rescued Betty when she was 11, after a life time of her being an indoor/outdoor cat. Of course, we were totally incompetent, negligent and "gambling her health and safety" when we took her in, but allowed her to chose to go outside. After all, it would far more sensible to_ force_ a cat to stay indoors after a lifetime of going out.



leashedForLife said:


> .
> if U [generic all-inclusive pronoun] choose to let Ur cat roam, don't expect buckets of empathic tears from me for YOUR loss when Kitty goes missing; .....
> *That would be a fitting outcome, IMO.*


I wouldn't want your tears, seen as you would regard a cats road death as a "fitting outcome".


----------



## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> But then a total of *194,477* people were killed or injured in reported RTA's in the UK during 2014 (according to a government report) .... do you then think that driving should be banned?


The UK human population is 6 times greater than the UK cat population and the figures you have quoted were for deaths and INJURIES as a result of RTAs @leashedForLife quoted just the death statistics for reported cats - apart from how many have gone un reported, it doesn't bear thinking about the number of injuries sustained on top as there is no record of these.


----------



## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Jesthar said:


> Not possible due to the shape of the garden and the fence being 'owned' by five different gardens, plus a few other significant factors. Money is not an issue.
> 
> Tried at a friends, she's not happy confined in them either.
> 
> ...


You don't need to justify what you do, you know your cat and know you're doing the right thing by her. (Not that you need me to tell you that).


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> as several persons on this thread have already said -
> those few cats who are genuinely distressed by indoor-only lives aren't doomed to suffer.
> There are multiple options, from cat-proof fencing on one's own garden (or a portion of it adjoining the house, if fencing the entire acreage is prohibitively expensive), to a free-standing screen house, a cat-run, a bump-out window bay, a screened "hanging porch" in a single window, & more.
> ...


What about my neighbours cat who being contained outside was non stop meowing and sounding distressed. That is cruel IMO all in the name of 'keeping them safer & healthier?' I'd beg to differ that that cat was happier & healthier. Safer, yes. But at what cost to it's own mental wellbeing?

They have since let her wander again which is the right thing for that cat IMO.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> But then a total of *194,477* people were killed or injured in reported RTA's in the UK during 2014 (according to a government report) .... do you then think that driving should be banned? Why do we take such risks in driving if there are so many deaths? ..... We do because we accept that there are risks & try to minimise them, but it will never be an activity that is 100% safe


The flaw in the above statement to my mind, is that we as "the driver" and considered (rightly or wrongly) to be fully aware of the dangers take on the responsibility of keeping ourselves safe on the road whilst embarking on what can be and often is a dangerous thing to do.
When a cat is allowed to wander "beyond the confines of its own ground" surely that means that we as a (third party) believe them to be fully aware of the dangers they may encounter but consider them capable of dealing with them.
Sadly the statistics show otherwise,after all you wouldn't be comfortable allowing a child or adult who doesn't comprehend the dangers of wandering off on their own the freedom to go where the fancy leads them,why is a cat so different.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Garfield luke moat cats here is indoor kitty. Lucky for him as with his respiratory problems, lowered immunity and sensitivity to low/ high temperature and sun outdoor is not recommended. Neither company of other cats .
He has his catwalks if he is well and weather bit warmer ..but only accompanied by Scrip and me to drying area and back...he can stay a bit on the gallery but late at nights when hardly anyone comes round..neighbours know him...and I am there to watch him.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

buffie said:


> The flaw in the above statement to my mind, is that we as "the driver" and considered (rightly or wrongly) to be fully aware of the dangers take on the responsibility of keeping ourselves safe on the road whilst embarking on what can be and often is a dangerous thing to do.
> When a cat is allowed to wander "beyond the confines of its own ground" surely that means that we as a (third party) believe them to be fully aware of the dangers they may encounter but consider them capable of dealing with them.
> Sadly the statistics show otherwise,after all you wouldn't be comfortable allowing a child or adult who doesn't comprehend the dangers of wandering off on their own the freedom to go where the fancy leads them,why is a cat so different.


I don't think it's flaw at alll .... as an adult we make all sorts of decisions in our every day lives. Some people will also make decisions for children in their lives, such as taking them on car journeys despite being aware of potential risks, the needs of the car journey usually outweigh the risks involved.

Same with my cats, the risk of them being hit by a car (IMO) are minimal compared to the enjoyment & enrichment the outdoor world brings them. I don't believe they understand the dangers at all but I do think they appreciate the freedom they have.

I don't believe you can compare the freedom of a cat to roam with that of a child at all but if we are then many children as they grow up are allowed more freedom, do I think they fully understand the dagners of the world? No, not at all, I don't think they are capable of that tbh. Not until they have more exprience can they really understand dangers, if they did then they they wouldn't be so carefree or reckless. When I think of risks I took when I was a child I may not do that now ..... in some ways that keeps me safer but in many ways I miss that more adventurous me!


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't think it's flaw at alll .... as an adult we make all sorts of decisions in our every day lives. Some people will also make decisions for children in their lives, such as taking them on car journeys despite being aware of potential risks, the needs of the car journey usually outweigh the risks involved.
> 
> Same with my cats, the risk of them being hit by a car (IMO) are minimal compared to the enjoyment & enrichment the outdoor world brings them. I don't believe they understand the dangers at all but I do think they appreciate the freedom they have.
> 
> I don't believe you can compare the freedom of a cat to roam with that of a child at all but if we are then many children as they grow up are allowed more freedom, do I think they fully understand the dagners of the world? No, not at all, I don't think they are capable of that tbh. Not until they have more exprience can they really understand dangers, if they did then they they wouldn't be so carefree or reckless. When I think of risks I took when I was a child I may not do that now ..... in some ways that keeps me safer but in many ways I miss that more adventurous me!


Think children are being brought up to be independent adults...while not pets...
Plus cats do kill wildlife...actually very significant damage.

If mine goes on catwalk can see birds but cannot really get any...
Maybe cat walks is the answer? Or secured garden/ patio.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cheekyscrip said:


> Think children are being brought up to be independent adults...while not pets...
> Plus cats do kill wildlife...actually very significant damage.
> 
> If mine goes on catwalk can see birds but cannot really get any...
> Maybe cat walks is the answer? Or secured garden/ patio.


I only bought up children, as in the fact of understanding risks & how we make decisions for them (as we do our pets) regardless of their understanding.

Yes, cats do kill wildlife, they could still kill wildlife in my garden. Mainly I want them to kill wildlife (mice & rats) to keep the numbers down (I live in the countryside)..

Your cats may be happy with a cat walk but mine would not .... we are all different, as are our cats & desions we make for them ... why does someone always have to be in the wrong? Surely we all make what we feel, are the best decisions for our pets


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

When you have a neighbour that puts out food for the foxes including bowls of milk resulting in your cats coming home vomiting and having upset stomaches you are unfortunately left with no other choice. I thought my cats would hate being kept indoors but they do not really seem to mind.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I only bought up children, as in the fact of understanding risks & how we make decisions for them (as we do our pets) regardless of their understanding.
> 
> Yes, cats do kill wildlife, they could still kill wildlife in my garden. Mainly I want them to kill wildlife (mice & rats) to keep the numbers down (I live in the countryside)..
> 
> Your cats may be happy with a cat walk but mine would not .... we are all different, as are our cats & desions we make for them ... *why does someone always have to be in the wrong? Surely we all make what we feel, are the best decisions for our pets*


My thoughts exactly. We all make decisions for our pets that we feel is in their best interests, might not be what another person agrees with, but that certainly doesn't mean I'm wrong and they're right or vice versa or that I don't love my pet because it happens to not fit in with someone else's views on ownership


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

OP hasn't visited this thread for nearly 2 weeks and has clearly made his decision in the other thread he started. As usual a newbie has stirred up a whole load of trouble and wandered off into the sunset. Argue your points if you must but we all know the bottom line here.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Personally I think it's not a bad thing to raise the issue every now and then - potential newbies may come to this forum looking for info to make an informed decision for the well being of their cat and can hear both sides of the argument. 



According to Catster who crunched numbers from 10 different websites in 2014

the average lifespan of a UK indoor cat came out at 16.8 years
the average lifespan of a UK outdoor cat is 5.6

I know we will all have experiences or know of people where the trends have been bucked but the average is just that.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't think it's flaw at alll .... as an adult we make all sorts of decisions in our every day lives. Some people will also make decisions for children in their lives, such as taking them on car journeys despite being aware of potential risks, the needs of the car journey usually outweigh the risks involved.
> 
> Same with my cats, the risk of them being hit by a car (IMO) are minimal compared to the enjoyment & enrichment the outdoor world brings them. I don't believe they understand the dangers at all but I do think they appreciate the freedom they have.
> 
> I don't believe you can compare the freedom of a cat to roam with that of a child at all but if we are then many children as they grow up are allowed more freedom, do I think they fully understand the dagners of the world? No, not at all, I don't think they are capable of that tbh. Not until they have more exprience can they really understand dangers, if they did then they they wouldn't be so carefree or reckless. When I think of risks I took when I was a child I may not do that now ..... in some ways that keeps me safer but in many ways I miss that more adventurous me!


We are obviously going to have to agree to disagree as our thoughts are poles apart.
Until the day a cat can recite the "Green Cross Code" show me it understands not to take sweets from strangers/go to see the cute puppies with the nice man and promise me that it wont chase the leaves or anything else across the busy road it will remain safe within the boundaries of my property


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't believe you can compare the freedom of a cat to roam with that of a child at all but if we are then many children as they grow up are allowed more freedom, do I think they fully understand the dagners of the world? No, not at all, I don't think they are capable of that tbh. Not until they have more exprience can they really understand dangers, if they did then they they wouldn't be so carefree or reckless. When I think of risks I took when I was a child I may not do that now ..... in some ways that keeps me safer but in many ways I miss that more adventurous me!


LOL my own kids have grown up half wild, running loose (usually barefoot or in flimsy flip flops) all over our property. Both have had injuries from living like wild people, both had to get stitched up at one point or another before they were school age, but I wouldn't trade what they have experienced for anything.
I know some parents are horrified by the freedoms I allow my kids, (I think it was on here I was chided because I let them climb trees LOL) but then I'm horrified at the thought of putting a 12 year old on the subway by themselves which many parents don't bat an eye at. 
It all just depends on you and your child's experience and expertise doesn't it?

Our cats have lived out here since they were kittens, they know how to stay safe, they're predator smart, they come when I call them, they hide when they need to, they're fine. I would never take an indoor cat and bring them out here and expect them to know how to survive, but by the same token, my outdoor cats would be miserable living inside.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
the Daily Flail article i referred to -
.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-418199/230-000-cats-run-year.html
.
.
.
the petition that followed some years after (Aug 2015), citing the same stats:
.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...egal-to-run-over-a-cat-and-not-report-it.html
.
.
.
Sorry, Sir David - *bell collars* do not stop cats from successfully killing birds, directly / at the immediate moment, or later via thirst / infection / inability to fly, exposure / hypo- or hyperthermia, unable to feed, avoid other predators, etc.
.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/10/cats-killing-birds-gardens-david-attenborough
.
And of course, he is also* completely deluded about the number of birds killed by kitties*; he's just an uninformed, well-meaning, nice man with zero knowledge of nature, cats, wildlife, biology, breeding popns, predator pressure, subsidized predation, mesopredator proliferation in urban / burban / disturbed ecosystems, & related issues.
:Shy
Right?...
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
http://www.harpsie.com/indoor_outdoor_cats.htm
.
.
1 incorrect statement:
"Cats kill rate goes down with age."

Not IME & that of my clients.
.
.
.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The bird species most at risk in the UK, whose populations are in decline, are not the ones we get in our gardens. They are the ones suffering from lose of habitat in the main due to changes in farming practices and in the future I suspect due to climate change, and the ones suffering persecution here and abroad.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/get-involve...dvice/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.aspx

"We also know that of the millions of baby birds hatched each year, most will die before they reach breeding age. This is also quite natural, and each pair needs only to rear two young that survive to breeding age to replace themselves and maintain the population.

It is likely that most of the birds killed by cats would have died anyway from other causes before the next breeding season, so cats are unlikely to have a major impact on populations. If their predation was additional to these other causes of mortality, this might have a serious impact on bird populations.

Those bird species that have undergone the most serious population declines in the UK (such as skylarks, tree sparrows and corn buntings) rarely encounter cats, so cats cannot be causing their declines. Research shows that these declines are usually caused by habitat change or loss, particularly on farmland."

"Cat predation can be a problem where housing is next to scarce habitats such as heathland, and could potentially be most damaging to species with a restricted range (such as cirl buntings) or species dependent on a fragmented habitat (such as Dartford warblers on heathland)."

Of course the root problem here is the lose of habitat, but in these special cases then yes, we need to be aware of the dangers our cats can pose.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

As with all the places on earth we humans occupy, it's the loss of habitat that causes the most impact.

Quote from the RSPB article (thank you for sharing @OrientalSlave )

"Despite the large numbers of birds killed, there is no scientific evidence that predation by cats in gardens is having any impact on bird populations UK-wide. This may be surprising, but many millions of birds die naturally every year, mainly through starvation, disease, or other forms of predation. There is evidence that cats tend to take weak or sickly birds."

Well, what would the RSPB _experts_ know? Obviously it's all the careless, uncaring, thoughtless, selfish, imperfect cat guardians fault for everything.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

huckybuck said:


> Personally I think it's not a bad thing to raise the issue every now and then - potential newbies may come to this forum looking for info to make an informed decision for the well being of their cat and can hear both sides of the argument.
> 
> According to Catster who crunched numbers from 10 different websites in 2014
> 
> ...


5.6? I really do not believe that one bit. They're probably using feral cats in their statistic, and you can't compare a domestic house cat (in and out), with a feral cat. 
I'd say that most cat owners in the UK allow their cats out, is this stat thus saying that the average UK cat lives to 5.6? I'd want to see the breaking down of the research a bit more before I begin to believe this.

Cats I have/family owned over the years, all went out/in.
Betty: 11. Died of a tumour in her mouth.
Shadow: 20. Died of old age.
TC: 18. Died of old age
Sindy: 16. Died of old age.
Morris: 4. Cancer
Pepper: 10. Cancer.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Jackie C said:


> 5.6? I really do not believe that one bit. They're probably using feral cats in their statistic, and you can't compare a domestic house cat (in and out), with a feral cat.
> I'd say that most cat owners in the UK allow their cats out, is this stat thus saying that the average UK cat lives to 5.6? I'd want to see the breaking down of the research a bit more before I begin to believe this.
> 
> Cats I have/family owned over the years, all went out/in.
> ...


You choose what you want to believe.

I would be very interested to see a life expectancy of UK domestic outdoor cats survey taken in 2016/2017 compared to indoor cats as personally I would expect the figure to be even less now.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

I did a poll a way back which I put to PF members who have or have ever had an outdoor cat ( and yes that included me as I used to have outdoor acts a long time ago)

I found the results very sad.

?
*Has your outdoor cat ever been*

*
*Run over/encountered a car*
48 vote(s)
51.6%
*
*Poisoned (intentionally or unintentionally)*
8 vote(s)
8.6%
*
*Caught a disease/parasites/worms*
15 vote(s)
16.1%
*
*Suffered health problems related to being outside e.g grass stuck*
10 vote(s)
10.8%
*
*Attacked (by other cats/dogs)*
25 vote(s)
26.9%

*Harmed/threatened (humans)*
12 vote(s)
12.9%
*
*Gone missing (lost or stolen)*
44 vote(s)
47.3%

*Other (please expand on thread)*
10 vote(s)
10.8%

*2 cats that have encountered the same issue*
11 vote(s)
11.8%

*3 cats or more that have encountered the same issue*
8 vote(s)
8.6%

*Or have they lived a full life without incident*
18 vote(s)
19.4%

*2 cats that have lived a full life without incident*
7 vote(s)
7.5%

*3 cats or more that have lived without incident*
17 vote(s)
18.3%


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

Could we do the poll again @huckybuck ? would be interesting to see what the results are now. I think this forum has a much higher on average number of indoor cats than the general public too

That average I reckon is spot on, I expect the average is pulled down by the amount of young vats that will be killed , people letting out kittens at 6 months when they are no where near mature (I have a six month old kitten I dont even think shes ready for harness yet!)


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

huckybuck said:


> I did a poll a way back which I put to PF members who have or have ever had an outdoor cat ( and yes that included me as I used to have outdoor acts a long time ago)
> 
> I found the results very sad.
> 
> ...


Sad, true, but speaking with my historical analysis hat on I'm not sure it can be treated as an unbiased source, as a significant number of people who arrive at PF come here because they want advice on some kind of incident involving their cat. In my case, I joined because I wanted food advice, but I see plenty of initial posts involving the first seven options. And we get relatively few regular posters who just join for the sake of joining. So it would be reasonable to expect the data to be heavily skewed towards those who have experienced incidents.

Also, I agree with JackieC, I would like to know the breakdown of the cats in that average lifespan statistic. In particular, if it includes both pets and ferals, and also if it distinguishes between neutered and un-neutered, as we all know neutering is a large factor in increasing lifespan.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

anachronism said:


> Could we do the poll again @huckybuck ? would be interesting to see what the results are now. I think this forum has a much higher on average number of indoor cats than the general public too
> 
> That average I reckon is spot on, I expect the average is pulled down by the amount of young vats that will be killed , people letting out kittens at 6 months when they are no where near mature (I have a six month old kitten I dont even think shes ready for harness yet!)


I am happy to do another one - there were a few things I wanted to change with the last one. It's slightly restricting as there can only be 15 answers. Give me a day or so and I will look at starting another. I might try to add age of death in if I can.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> I fail to see why you feel so passionately about it either way.


@Dogloverlou: I recall that L4L was the one who was totally in agreement with the Texan vet (Kristen Lindsey...I think... was the name) who shot a cat thro' the head and posted a picture on social media of her holding the cat, still with the arrow thro' its head. She was subsequently kicked out of the practice she worked for as her employers were not impressed with her ''achievement''.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

huckybuck said:


> I did a poll a way back which I put to PF members who have or have ever had an outdoor cat ( and yes that included me as I used to have outdoor acts a long time ago)
> 
> I found the results very sad.
> 
> ...


.......and that is just a survey made up from a very small group of people .

As for the RSPB findings,I'm in no position to say that over all they are wrong,but the way I see it,for every adult bird killed/injured during the breeding season many more deaths will occur in the nests where an adult is no longer feeding this has to have an impact on the survival rate of any species.
Twist the figures anyway you want but no death caused by a domestic cat should ever be acceptable.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Also, I agree with JackieC, I would like to know the breakdown of the cats in that average lifespan statistic. In particular, if it includes both pets and ferals, and also if it distinguishes between neutered and un-neutered, as we all know neutering is a large factor in increasing lifespan.


Based on a survey of 10 reputable sites that discuss the average domestic cat.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

huckybuck said:


> I am happy to do another one - there were a few things I wanted to change with the last one. It's slightly restricting as there can only be 15 answers. Give me a day or so and I will look at starting another. I might try to add age of death in if I can.


Age of death would be good, also whether the incident was the direct cause of death/and influencing factor or otherwise


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

huckybuck said:


> Based on a survey of 10 reputable sites that discuss the average domestic cat.


Fab, do they include those breakdowns?


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Sad, true, but speaking with my historical analysis hat on I'm not sure it can be treated as an unbiased source, as a significant number of people who arrive at PF come here because they want advice on some kind of incident involving their cat. In my case, I joined because I wanted food advice, but I see plenty of initial posts involving the first seven options. And we get relatively few regular posters who just join for the sake of joining. So it would be reasonable to expect the data to be heavily skewed towards those who have experienced incidents.


Apart from the odd troll most of the people who arrive in PF do so because they love their cats and want to keep them safe and protect them from harm.

I accept the data may be "skewed" but the info is still useful to have.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

huckybuck said:


> Apart from the odd troll most of the people who arrive in PF do so because they love their cats and want to keep them safe and protect them from harm.
> 
> I accept the data may be "skewed" but the info is still useful to have.


Not disputing that, it's just the historian in me doing source appraisal!  It's not criticism of you, m'dear., that a survey on a pet forum would be considered a heavily biased source in research context, as your average cat or dog owner doesn't join or post on forums, therefore we are considered to be natural outliers


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Fab, do they include those breakdowns?


Sadly not. The info is from Catster in 2014

*How long do indoor cats live?*
All the research we've done overwhelmingly suggests that indoor cats live nearly three times as long as outdoor cats. How long do cats live if they're indoor cats? Indoor cats are typically sterilized, vaccinated, and removed from the stresses, risks, and dangers of the outside world. They are fed regularly and have easy access to water that is fresh and clean.

They require more attention, more distractions, and must be encouraged to get sufficient exercise to avoid obesity. Fortunately, attentive cat owners provide all of those things. The numbers varied widely among all the sites we visited, ranging from 14 to 20 years. Based on the numbers we chronicled, the average lifespan of an indoor cat is 16.875 years.










*How long do outdoor cats live?*
Our research shows that outdoors, a number of challenges tend to limit the average cat lifespan. Of course, "outside" means different things depending on where a cat lives. Do you live in an urban, suburban, rural, or remote location? How many neighbors have outdoor cats? Do you live in a place with an abundance of predatory wildlife? Are there feral or stray animals nearby? Is the weather amenable year-round to an outdoor lifestyle? How close do you live to roads and thoroughfares?

These are all limiting factors, as are increased exposure to fleas, ticks, and other parasites and illnesses. Outdoors, cats can also get in fights and scrapes with other cats and are at increased risk of accidents. However, they also have the freedom to explore, mark out favored perches, and get natural exercise. Because there are so many more unpredictable variables, the numbers are generally not good, and cat lifespan ranges much more widely, anywhere from three to 10 years. The average cat lifespan outdoors is 5.625 years.










*How long can cats live?*
I can hear you saying, "But my cat …" These numbers are all averages. My cat, Klesko, has always been an outdoor cat and she's 15 years old. There are always outliers that defy averages.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

huckybuck said:


> Sadly not. The info is from Catster in 2014
> 
> *How long do indoor cats live?*
> All the research we've done overwhelmingly suggests that indoor cats live nearly three times as long as outdoor cats. How long do cats live if they're indoor cats? Indoor cats are typically sterilized, vaccinated, and removed from the stresses, risks, and dangers of the outside world. They are fed regularly and have easy access to water that is fresh and clean.
> ...


I think Catster is a US publication isn't it? In particular, I note the reference to "Do you live in a place with an abundance of predatory wildlife?" - not something we really have in the UK. They don't mention if the survey is worldwide/restricted to the USA, so that's another unknown. They do mention that the definiton of 'outside' varies wildly, but it would be much more useful to take that further and break down their statistics in that way too - assuming they collected the data, of course. And as I said before, they _really _do need to split the data for fully domestic cats (assuming farm cats, which tend to be semi-feral, are included) between neutered and un-neutered. Splitting by the amount of outdoor access (24/7 unlimited, through always in overnight, to supervised only) would be useful too.

All in all, I'd have to conclude this source data is fairly reliable for indoor cats, but not very reliable for outdoor cats - too many unclarified variables.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Calvine said:


> @Dogloverlou: I recall that L4L was the one who was totally in agreement with the Texan vet (Kristen Lindsey...I think... was the name) who shot a cat thro' the head and posted a picture on social media of her holding the cat, still with the arrow thro' its head. She was subsequently kicked out of the practice she worked for as her employers were not impressed with her ''achievement''.


I think you're right! Says it all really 



huckybuck said:


> Sadly not. The info is from Catster in 2014
> 
> *How long do indoor cats live?*
> All the research we've done overwhelmingly suggests that indoor cats live nearly three times as long as outdoor cats. How long do cats live if they're indoor cats? Indoor cats are typically sterilized, vaccinated, and removed from the stresses, risks, and dangers of the outside world. They are fed regularly and have easy access to water that is fresh and clean.
> ...


Catster IS a US publication as @Jesthar mentioned. Therefore you really can't compare that data with the UK population of cats. The US has a much wider abundance of feral cat populations, larger and dangerous predators ( indeed I saw a video the other week of a Coyote grabbing a cat from someone's back yard and running off with it! ) and various other dangers that wouldn't be the same here.

I'd strongly beg to differ that the same mean age for an outdoor cat here is the same as what that article says.

Besides which, Dogster/Catster are not particularly famed for their accuracy in their articles.


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## Hollyjade (Nov 29, 2016)

I have two cats, and I never knew if they were indoor or outdoor cats when I got them, but I haven't let them out, they like to sit in the window and stare but they have never indicated wanting to go out and I chose to keep them indoors for there safety and there quite happy just looking at the outside world from a window.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> I think Catster is a US publication isn't it? In particular, I note the reference to "Do you live in a place with an abundance of predatory wildlife?" - not something we really have in the UK. They don't mention if the survey is worldwide/restricted to the USA, so that's another unknown. They do mention that the definiton of 'outside' varies wildly, but it would be much more useful to take that further and break down their statistics in that way too - assuming they collected the data, of course. And as I said before, they _really _do need to split the data for fully domestic cats (assuming farm cats, which tend to be semi-feral, are included) between neutered and un-neutered. Splitting by the amount of outdoor access (24/7 unlimited, through always in overnight, to supervised only) would be useful too.
> 
> All in all, I'd have to conclude this source data is fairly reliable for indoor cats, but not very reliable for outdoor cats - too many unclarified variables.





Dogloverlou said:


> I think you're right! Says it all really
> 
> Catster IS a US publication as @Jesthar mentioned. Therefore you really can't compare that data with the UK population of cats. The US has a much wider abundance of feral cat populations, larger and dangerous predators ( indeed I saw a video the other week of a Coyote grabbing a cat from someone's back yard and running off with it! ) and various other dangers that wouldn't be the same here.
> 
> ...


TBF I think people who advocate letting cats roam will always try to pick holes and dispute surveys in order to support their argument. Let's see the data stating they live just as long....Beg to differ with the life span by all means; it could be 1 or 2 years different but it may not. Common sense is enough to tell you that there are numerous extra risks associated with letting cats out if you think about it. The proof is on this forum on a regular basis.

As for ferals being included in the statistics I doubt it very much. The statistics rely on knowledge of the birth and death of the cat. Unless individual feral cats were being monitored I don't see how they could add them into the equation.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

huckybuck said:


> TBF I think people who advocate letting cats roam will always try to pick holes and dispute surveys in order to support their argument. Let's see the data stating they live just as long....Beg to differ with the life span by all means; it could be 1 or 2 years different but it may not. Common sense is enough to tell you that there are numerous extra risks associated with letting cats out if you think about it. The proof is on this forum on a regular basis.
> 
> As for ferals being included in the statistics I doubt it very much. The statistics rely on knowledge of the birth and death of the cat. Unless individual feral cats were being monitored I don't see how they could add them into the equation.


Wanting accurate, unbiased data isn't exactly picking holes, though. If the data set is too general, you can't draw specific conclusions with confidence.

I don't think anyone is disputing the logic that indoor cats will enjoy a higher mean lifespan. However, the average lifespan for outdoor cats quoted in the Catster article seems far too low to be solely based on neutered, fed, vaccinated, limited outdoor access, cared for cats like my Charlie-girl. There are many monitored feral cat colonies in the USA, for example, and it is not unreasonable to think that some must maintain birth and death records for individual colony cats, even if they can't be guaranteed 100% accurate

Likewise, farm cats are often un-neutered and free breeding, and hunt the rodents on the farm for food. They are not going to live anywhere near as long as a pet cat either, but birth and death statistics are likely to be available, and possibly vet care may be given too.

At the more traditional pet type home, we know whether or not a pet is neutered is likely have a big impact on lifespan, as neutered cats don't roam anywhere so far and entire cats, are also less likely to fight or develop certain medical conditions, and keep their conditions and health a lot longer. After that, then the amount of time a cat spends out of doors would be another major factor in the level of risk they face, as is the environment in which they live. The Caster data doesn't say if it is USA only (which would be a reasonable assumption) or worldwide, but certain types of threat they mention, such as wild predators, are largely absent from the UK.

At the end of the day, we all have to do what is best for an individual cat. In my case, I have two very different girls. Charlie-girl genuinely fails to thrive without some outside roaming time, so if she asks, she goes out. Currently she's only staying out for about an hour in an evening during the week, and is in and out a few times during the day at the weekend providing I am in, then snuggling up inside for the rest of the time. Lori, on the other hand, rarely asks to go out in the winter, even on a weekend. She'd probably happily be an indoor only cat if I needed her to be one. And as they are happy with their life, so am I


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

huckybuck said:


> TBF I think people who advocate letting cats roam will always try to pick holes and dispute surveys in order to support their argument. Let's see the data stating they live just as long....Beg to differ with the life span by all means; it could be 1 or 2 years different but it may not. Common sense is enough to tell you that there are numerous extra risks associated with letting cats out if you think about it. The proof is on this forum on a regular basis.
> 
> As for ferals being included in the statistics I doubt it very much. The statistics rely on knowledge of the birth and death of the cat. Unless individual feral cats were being monitored I don't see how they could add them into the equation.


It's not about picking holes at all, it's about understanding the study .... anyone can throw out random figures but you need to understand the survey, who was asked, who was doing the research,etc. Surely that's standard, I would always look at studies obejectively & try to understand them before taking on board the results.

I doubt people are disputing there are more risks associated to outdoor life for cats at all, but more the likelihood of those risks for the individual cats. I also do not think that this forum is a representation of typical pet owners either.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2017)

huckybuck said:


> All the research we've done overwhelmingly suggests that indoor cats live nearly three times as long as outdoor cats. How long do cats live if they're indoor cats? Indoor cats are typically sterilized, vaccinated, and removed from the stresses, risks, and dangers of the outside world. They are fed regularly and have easy access to water that is fresh and clean.


While the overall average might be true, I just want to say that our cats are fed regularly, have easy access to fresh, clean water, are fully vaccinated, wormed regularly, and are sterilized. This has always been the case for all of our cats, even the cats who lived exclusively in the barn and did not come inside the house.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> It's not about picking holes at all, it's about understanding the study .... anyone can throw out random figures but you need to understand the survey, who was asked, who was doing the research,etc. Surely that's standard, I would always look at studies obejectively & try to understand them before taking on board the results.


Well it's not the first time I have heard similar statistics and just the fact that there are surveys (however general they may be) indicating the lower average lifespan of an outdoor cat, as opposed to none saying indoor/outdoor have the same is enough for me. As I said before you choose what you want to believe.

Incidentally I am one of those owners who used to have outdoor cats, always neutered, and they still managed to; roam further than I thought they did, get hit by a car, get into fights, went missing, caught a virus and were poisoned....(over 25 years ago when the so called risks were a lot less than they are now)....I learned from it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

huckybuck said:


> Well it's not the first time I have heard similar statistics and just the fact that there are surveys (however general they may be) indicating the lower average lifespan of an outdoor cat, as opposed to none saying indoor/outdoor have the same is enough for me. As I said before you choose what you want to believe.
> 
> Incidentally I am one of those owners who used to have outdoor cats, always neutered, and they still managed to; roam further than I thought they did, get hit by a car, get into fights, went missing, caught a virus and were poisoned....(over 25 years ago when the so called risks were a lot less than they are now)....I learned from it.


Again, it's not just about 'choosing' what I want to believe, it's understanding the study & those involved before jumping to conclusions .... some statistics get trotted out time & time again without anyone actually understanding the data behind them 

Sorry to hear your cats did have accidents or were injured, I can understand why you may now choose to keep your cats indoors but this does not mean this is the 'right' decision for everyone, it is for you.

I have had cats for over 25 years & none have ever been injured, hurt, etc & all have lived to old ages (with the exception of my indoor cats but ithat was not related to their environment). I choose to let my cats out which is the right decision for me .... neither of us are wrong & neither of us are right .... we have just chosen differnet lives for our pets & what we believe is in their best interests.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2017)

I think it's kind of like the assumption that all dogs should live in the home and that having "outside" dogs is cruel. Yeah, getting a dog to park it on a chain outside is cruel, but keeping a fit working dog outside either guarding livestock or working herds is not. It's very contextual and you can't apply the same blanket rules to all dog owning situations. Same with cats. It really depends on the cat, the environment, and the situation.
If I lived in a flat in a city, no way would I have outside cats. But we live in the boonies on acreage with no neighbors and literally miles away from any paved roads. There is no reason for my cats to be locked inside the house 24/7.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I have had cats for over 25 years & none have ever been injured, hurt, etc & all have lived to old ages (with the exception of my indoor cats but ithat was not related to their environment). I choose to let my cats out which is the right decision for me .... neither of us are wrong & neither of us are right .... we have just chosen differnet lives for our pets & what we believe is in their best interests.


I agree and I hope your cats continue to live safely without incident. I think you are extremely lucky.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

buffie said:


> .......and that is just a survey made up from a very small group of people .
> 
> As for the RSPB findings,I'm in no position to say that over all they are wrong,but the way I see it,*for every adult bird killed/injured during the breeding season many more deaths will occur in the nests where an adult is no longer feeding* this has to have an impact on the survival rate of any species.
> Twist the figures anyway you want but no death caused by a domestic cat should ever be acceptable.


If the population is stable then predation from all sources is not a problem. Even where it's declining it takes careful work to see what the actual reason is.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> If the population is stable then predation from all sources is not a problem. *Even where it's declining it takes careful work to see what the actual reason is.*



Again it seems I have found something where I will have to "agree to disagree" .
Something I have often wondered about is this,as it is a criminal offence to capture or kill a wild bird (game birds aside)why is it not illegal to allow a cat to kill wild birds ?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I guess because of the old "cats are not livestock" thing, therefore you can't control them - and the mistaken belief that they are native when they are not.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Jonescat said:


> I guess because of the old "*cats are not livestock" thing, therefore you can't control them *- and the mistaken belief that they are native when they are not.


Something which I have never understood,cats are the only domesticated animal which has "free reign" to do as they please with absolutely no come back on the owner 
Maybe it is time this was looked at again.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Jackie C:

...
I wouldn't want your tears, seen as you would regard a (cat's) road death as a "fitting outcome".

/QUOTE
.
.
that Ur cat arrived as a former street-cat does not mean it's impossible to convert her to an indoor life; i've taken several cats off the street, as adults, & they were more than happy to avoid the noisy, scary, dangerous outside & live indoors.
.
As for *"fitting outcome",* are U being deliberately obtuse? - I did not say it's FITTING FOR THE CAT; I said it is an entirely appropriate outcome FOR THE OWNER, who rolled the dice - by putting their cat out into a world full of hazards -- & their cat lost. The owner took the risk; the cat paid the price.
I can't see wasting my empathy on someone who chose to let their cat roam, & now s/he has not come home, & what could possibly have happened?...
Many things - most of them bad. But that was the owner's choice.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, OrientalSlave:

If the population is stable, then* predation from all sources* is not a problem. Even where [popns are] declining, it takes careful work to see what the actual reason is.

/QUOTE
.
.
once again, we have the song & dance that "UK cats / UK birds are special cases...". Not buying it. 
.
the British Isles are *islands* - & even on continents, human activities are creating ISLANDS of habitat, segregating breeding popns, limiting the ability to expand territory, travel to new areas, move in response to catastrophe [fire, flood, drought...], etc. ISLANDS are the classic instances of specific cat-caused exterminations of native fauna. The data are crystal clear, & have been sadly repeated in many locations around the world.
.
.
Meanwhile, the RSPB - just like the Audubon Society, HSUS, & many other nonprofit wildlife groups dependent on public donations --- *is ignoring the issue, & claims that every bird killed by a cat "would have died, anyway, of something else before breeding". *Really? ... they all come with little tags round their necks, saying, "please kill me, I'm doomed, anyway." ??
The RSPB does not want to dry-up its own funding by alienating the cat-owning British public; they are avoiding a controversy that will soon be so glaringly obvious that no one will be able to explain it away, rationalize cat-killed wildlife numbers, or claim that all the animals killed by cats would die, anyway, of "something else".
.
.
it's convenient; it's self-serving rationalization; it avoids stirring up highly-emotional debates; & it's pure bull. :Meh
.
.
.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Jackie C:
> 
> ...
> I wouldn't want your tears, seen as you would regard a (cat's) road death as a "fitting outcome".
> ...


You know your cats, I knew mine. I won't tell you how to raise & rehab your cats, you did what you felt was right for your cats. I did the same for Betty.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> But then a total of *194,477* people were killed or injured in reported RTA's in the UK during 2014 (according to a government report) .... do you then think that driving should be banned? Why do we take such risks in driving if there are so many deaths? ..... We do because we accept that there are risks & try to minimise them, but it will never be an activity that is 100% safe


People have the choice - cats do not.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, OrientalSlave:
> 
> If the population is stable, then* predation from all sources* is not a problem. Even where [popns are] declining, it takes careful work to see what the actual reason is.
> 
> ...


Someone bought up the subject of finding surveys to suit arguements & ignoring data that didn't like .... could this be a case here ?!    :Cat


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> [QUOTE, OrientalSlave:
> 
> If the population is stable, then* predation from all sources* is not a problem. Even where [popns are] declining, it takes careful work to see what the actual reason is.
> 
> ...


Since I live in the UK I had noticed it's an island, though back in the days of Doggerland it was connected to continental Europe which how people and many of our animals and plants originally got here.

The ancestors of our domestic cats arrived over 2,000 years ago with the Romans and were found throughout the UK way before people ever though to keep cats in for whatever reason.

It's also an island with a native wild cat (Felix Silvestris grampia) which used to be widely distributed in forests & woodlands, an island which has several other native carnivores - Fox, Weasel, Stoat, Otter, Badger, Polecat, Pine marten, an introduced one in mink and one which used to have wolves, lynx and brown bears.

All carnivores hunt, and most of the animals they catch are the weak (old, young, ill) and the unwary. Darwinism is an arms race between hunter & hunted which has given us the wonders of peregrine vs pigeon for example.

In a few very small parts of the UK I agree, domestic and feral cats are a menace to wildlife. Mostly, if you put them in the context of an island which has had both cats and several other small predators for many years they are of little consequence.

What is the big danger to wildlife in the uk are some introduced species - mink decimating water voles, grey squirrels carrying squirrel pox - and people. People are the biggest by far. We cleared most of the forest, persecuted many species including wolves, lynx, brown bears , beavers and wild boar to extinction, we have changed farming practices beyond belief compared to 1950 which has lead to far fewer birds that need the more traditional habitat to thrive, and many birds of prey have been persecuted by game keepers, most notably the hen harrier.

None of our 10 most endangered species are endangered by cats - the one that is is the Wildcat, due to interbreeding.

You should also remember that there is at least on example where eliminating cats from an island has lead to worse problems as the rodents they were predating.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...eatens-sooty-terns-ascension-island-cat-cull/

If you want to save species, your periodic rants against outdoor cats will have zilch effect in the UK. Go fight the climate change deniers in your own country, we are in danger of them having the power to destroy wildlife world-wide.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

A very interesting debate which has been very well discussed considering what a contentious issue this is.

I just wanted to make a comment on the various discussions where Dogs and cats have been compared.

I'm not a dog owner, so please tell me if my perceptions are wrong in this. To me, part of being a responsible dog owner is ensuring that your dog is provided with adequate exercise on a daily basis. For some smaller dogs, it may be sufficient to allow them to run around a large garden, and for some elderly dogs, just a walk on a lead my be enough, but for young, energetic, larger breeds of dog I would image that a long walk/run would be required. I've been with my friend when she's walking her Labrador cross and we tend to go down to the local dog friendly beach, let him off his lead and allow him to race like a loony up and down the pebbles. She does this every day, either on the beech, or in the fields adjacent to their homes.

Regular exercise is essential to the wellbeing of every dog, and leaving a young active dog permanently inside a house, or constantly constrained in a *small* garden would in my mind, be a form of cruelty - I doubt your house and garden would cope very well either...

I personally think that in a lot of instances keeping an indoor cat is not cruel and keeping a cat in a small cat proofed garden isn't cruel either (provided that they're provided with adequate stimulation) - this is the first difference between the two. Cats require exercise/play, but most cats would probably not require the level of exercise that most dogs would. Similarly, you can't treat a cat like a dog - there's no way you could keep a cat in a house for 22 hours a day and then decide to take it for a walk - Cats are highly territorial and are most comfortable on their 'home turf' You couldn't just take a cat to the beech in a carrier and let it loose on a beech to run around - they'd either be terrified or would vanish over the hills and not be found again.

Also, not all cats can be trained to accept wearing a harness. Even if they can, not all cats will accept the restriction of a harness (I did try, one of lay on the floor and howled until I took it off and the other ran up the garden so fast they almost choked themselves when I couldn't keep up and eventually ripped the lead off my wrist.)

You can't liken dogs to cats, they're not the same animal and their needs, requirements and behaviours are not the same. Similarly, dogs can (note 'can' not 'are') be a danger to others - hence the legal requirement for all dogs to be under the control of their owners at ALL times. Cats might be annoying for crapping in your garden, or might kill your goldfish or give you a nasty scratch or bite, but I am reasonably sure there is no evidence of a cat ever mauling a child or adult to death. Much of the law relating to the control of dogs has been founded out of the risk that dogs can pose, rather than their value.

I do also think that some very active cats need a LOT of exercise and in that instance yes, constraining them in a house/small run might not be fulfilling the needs of the cat and could therefore be defined as cruel. If you are lucky enough to have a large garden that can be cat proofed, then that is of course an option, and I do think that we will see more of this going forward. It's a great option for some and an impossibility for others.

In a perfect world we would all have cats that didn't want to go out - that were happy staying inside with us, or in a run. Or we would all have nice big gardens that we could all afford to cat proof. But the world isn't perfect and I think it would be as wrong to force an indoor focused cat to go outside as it would be to constrain an active cat, desperate to go out, to stay indoors. We all have to balance the risks and the rewards to do what's best for our pets and it's not always a black and white decision.

The only down side to this thread in my opinion have been some of the (very rare thankfully) comments that basically boil down to "If you choose to let your cat go out, then don't come crying to us if they go missing/get killed." I would hope that everyone - even if they disagreed with letting cats roam - would have the basic human empathy to keep these sorts of comments to themselves, as ultimately they do no one any good.

But as I said at the top of this post - this has been (mostly) a very well balanced discussion with a lot of excellent points being made.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

buffie said:


> Again it seems I have found something where I will have to "agree to disagree" .
> Something I have often wondered about is this,as it is a criminal offence to capture or kill a wild bird (game birds aside)why is it not illegal to allow a cat to kill wild birds ?


For the same legal reasons that in the UK if a dog runs in the road and causes an accident the dog owner is liable, whereas if a cat does the same the cat owner isn't liable.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Erenya said:


> Also, not all cats can be trained to accept wearing a harness. Even if they can, not all cats will accept the restriction of a harness (I did try, one of lay on the floor and howled until I took it off and the other ran up the garden so fast they almost choked themselves when I couldn't keep up and eventually ripped the lead off my wrist.)


If you have a cat from a kitten I totally disagree - they all CAN be trained to wear a harness. All it takes is patience. Start off with a collar first and slowly move to a harness when comfortable with the collar. It should be done indoors in frequent bouts of a few minutes at a time over a number of days/weeks and distraction is the key. Of course it feels strange at first and they might not like it but the key is getting them to forget they have it on. The same goes for adding the lead.

I also think you can train an adult cat too in the same way (and I have done so with previous cats). If a cat can wear a collar there is no reason why it can't get used to a harness in time.

No one can expect to put on harness and immediately take the cat outside and expect it to be ok with it.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Erenya said:


> I do also think that some very active cats need a LOT of exercise and in that instance yes, constraining them in a house/small run might not be fulfilling the needs of the cat and could therefore be defined as cruel. If you are lucky enough to have a large garden that can be cat proofed, then that is of course an option, and I do think that we will see more of this going forward. It's a great option for some and an impossibility for others.
> 
> In a perfect world we would all have cats that didn't want to go out - that were happy staying inside with us, or in a run. Or we would all have nice big gardens that we could all afford to cat proof.


I agree and this is where the responsibility of the owner should come in.

If you don't have a large garden and can't afford to cat proof or buy a run, don't get a large cat that needs a lot of exercise. I would have loved a bengal but know how high maintenance they are and despite having a large house and large garden I knew we would never cat proof it so I couldn't provide a safe ideal environment for one. A run, harness training and large enough house however was perfect for M/Cs.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

huckybuck said:


> If you have a cat from a kitten I totally disagree - they all CAN be trained to wear a harness. All it takes is patience. Start off with a collar first and slowly move to a harness when comfortable with the collar. It should be done indoors in frequent bouts of a few minutes at a time over a number of days/weeks and distraction is the key. Of course it feels strange at first and they might not like it but the key is getting them to forget they have it on. The same goes for adding the lead.
> 
> I also think you can train an adult cat too in the same way (and I have done so with previous cats). If a cat can wear a collar there is no reason why it can't get used to a harness in time.
> 
> No one can expect to put on harness and immediately take the cat outside and expect it to be ok with it.


Again, I would dispute this .... animals, like people are all individuals & some, regardless of conditioning will not accept certain things.

One of my dogs (rescue) will NOT tolerate a head collar (which I was advised she wear to stop her pulling on the lead). Despite many months of training/conditioning using rewards, etc she still hated this & only tolerated it. She was so miserable wearing it that I decided I would rather she pulled than be forced to continue to wear this. Now some people (L4L again so it happens!) would argue that I should continue & if I was doing it 'right' then she would come to accept it ..... again I disagree.

Just because you have managed this with certain cats does not mean that you can apply the same statement to all cats ....


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

(cat eaten too much popcorn already by the looks of it)


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> Again, I would dispute this .... animals, like people are all individuals & some, regardless of conditioning will not accept certain things.
> 
> One of my dogs (rescue) will NOT tolerate a head collar (which I was advised she wear to stop her pulling on the lead). Despite many months of training/conditioning using rewards, etc she still hated this & only tolerated it. She was so miserable wearing it that I decided I would rather she pulled than be forced to continue to wear this. Now some people (L4L again so it happens!) would argue that I should continue & if I was doing it 'right' then she would come to accept it ..... again I disagree.
> 
> Just because you have managed this with certain cats does not mean that you can apply the same statement to all cats ....


I agree and in those circumstances then one would need to look at other options such as cat proofing or a run. 
I have have managed it with all my cats since I started doing it and I think "most" cats would cope with it in the same way most dogs do - it just needs the owner's time and inclination to try it.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

We tried a harness on our youngest cat, and he refused to move. Granted we hadn't spent many weeks/months conditioning it to him, but all the same, it just wasn't him. However, I'd prefer to go that route and give my cat some outside access...even walks around the road or whatever, then not let them have outside access at all.

A question for those who haven't answered it, but in the case of my neighbour which I posted about who tried keeping their cat contained & actually are very concerned about the dangers outside and would prefer to keep their cats indoors/outside contained, if that cat does not tolerate it or enjoy it ( and this cat was sounding very distressed and it made me quite uncomfortable listening to her meowing ) what is the solution then? Do you physically force that cat indoors regardless of it's mental wellbeing? Do you let it out again, knowing she typically stays very close to home and barely leaves the general vicinity of her home, or do you take such drastic measures as having her PTS because your over riding belief of not letting a cat out?


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

huckybuck said:


> If you don't have a large garden and can't afford to cat proof or buy a run, don't get a large cat that needs a lot of exercise. I would have loved a bengal but know how high maintenance they are and despite having a large house and large garden I knew we would never cat proof it so I couldn't provide a safe ideal environment for one. A run, harness training and large enough house however was perfect for M/Cs.


Actually our two aren't big per se, Darwin's a relatively petit 4kg and Einstein is only 5kg. They are part Bengal so are quite energetic, but I guess we underestimated how determined/focused they'd be on wanting to go out. We are very lucky in that our garden is relatively large but unfortunately we have a badger set, so there are tunnels dug underneath every fence - we fill em in, they keep on digging them . We also have a culvert at the bottom of the garden that apparently can't be blocked, which is actually must less of an issue than the badgers... but we literally have no way of proofing our garden other than a run, which I do not believe would be of sufficient size to keep them content.

We are luckier than many other people in that as long as our two can have some access outside during the day it keeps them happy, so they are allowed outdoor access only between the hours of 8:15am-4:30pm. I'd honestly feel better if they wanted to be inside cats, and I agree with most sentiments that outside is a dangerous place for cats to be, but our two do not do well emotionally or physically without outside access and we have therefore made the decision that for their happiness this is what is required.

It's not a decision that was made lightly, but weighing up the options, I believe that ultimately for us it was the right decision. And that's all any of us can do


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
it's simply not possible, given the sheer number & concentration of free-roaming cats in the UK, including all 3 categories [owned pet, abandoned former pet, born feral] that cat predation is NOT having any significant effect -
as we aren't "merely" talking about songbirds, adult, nestling, or fledgling, but all the other species & ages or stages that cats will & do take, including everything from eggs [amphibian, reptile, bird] to breeding adult, nest-bound infant, or immature subadult, & anything a cat might encounter & pounce on:
lizards, butterflies, katydids, grasshoppers, snakes, salamanders, birds, shrews, moles, voles, rabbits, hares, leverets, mice, water rats, hedgehogs, & a huge number of "etcetera".
.
Cats are nothing if not catholic in their predatory notions; if it moves right, smells right, or sounds right, they'll pounce.
That's precisely why targets as wildly variant as a cotton tampon, a Mylar pom-pom, a fan-folded sheet of paper on a string, & a felt teardrop on a fishing-pole can all be used to elicit stalking, pouncing, & killing behaviors - because cats aren't picky.
.
they're ambush predators, so they don't need to be in great athletic form; fat cats can hunt just as effectively as fit cats.
A cat-owner in Va Beach who phoned during my shift on the wildlife hot-line said she couldn't imagine her "fat, lazy, 9-YO cat catching ANYthing", but he obviously had: she was phoning to get the bird he'd brought home into care.
She'd been letting him out every night of his life, & this was the 1st animal he'd brought home.
I pointed out that it wasn't the 1st animal he'd caught; male cats are far less-likely to 'trophy' [bring home their catch] than Fs, especially queens [Fs who've had at least one litter].
I asked her to please, please keep him at home, pointed out that it was illegal to let him roam, that he could get hurt [turned out he had been, several times; she got him patched by the vet, & a week later, he's at the door, wants to go out, & she opens it], could be poisoned, HBC, dog-mauled, etc, but I know from her tone of voice he'll be out there every night.
She feels guilty about this one bird b/c it's undeniable proof that he's been hunting all along; his past victims are deniable b/c she never had to see them, bleeding & broken, on her kitchen floor.
.
.
we're getting more data & far-more accurate data on cat predation, now that we don't depend on "what cats bring home" to tally the death toll.
Cat-mounted cameras & GPS collars have provided us with data on all the many critters that DON'T get brought home, whether they're too big for easy carrying, killed too far from home to bother, or get away injured to die later.
Cameras are now high-pixel & allow accurate species I-D.
.
Fluffy is no longer a plausibly deniable scourge.
Fluffy is an indiscriminate, opportunistic killer who frequently has zero interest in eating those kills.
They are left to the maggots, & any survivors are left to cope as best they can - in nesting season for birds or mammals, that would be "not well" or simply "not", as without 2 working parents, a demanding clutch of infant or fledgling birds won't make it to flight stage. The sole parent can't provide enuf invertebrate food.
.
I've found entire nests of baby bunnies, laid out like cadavers in an autopsy room, each with her or his head gnawed off by a cat; apparently the brains are the best part, & the bodies aren't worth eating.
Unfortunately, eating the brain is pretty much fatal for the bunny.
.
I'm tired of seeing healthy, whole wildlife turned into dead, dying, broken or seriously-sick wildlife by non-native housecats.
I'm tired of pumping untold amounts of time into feeding, antibiotics, bandage changes, wound care, housing, enriching, & cleaning cages of cat victims.
I'm tired of releasing so few; infection & crippling injuries take many, despite excellent care from experienced rehabbers.
I'm tired of rehabbers, not cat-keepers, PAYING for cages, food - specialized diets aren't cheap! - anitibiotics, bandages, feeding tools, splints, X-rays, Rx meds, OTC meds, gauze, vet-wrap, & all the rest of it.
.
IMO, every cat-owner who allows her or his pet to roam is criminally negligent, not only of their own pet's safety & well-being, but of the ecos around them, their neighbors' rights to enjoy their property without caterwauling fights & cat-sh!t in the garden or cat-p!ss on the shrubbery, doorposts, & outdoor chaise longue, & the local wildlife -
who have a right to live & raise their young without yet one more human-introduced risk factor to decimate their numbers.
.
If only 1 cat in 10 was a frequent predator, I'd still think it would require ethical, responsible cat-owners to keep their cats indoors, b/c of the risk TO THE CAT of roaming, plus all the other non-hunting problems caused by roaming cats:
Toxo, feces, urine, property damage, cat-fights [which even neutering does not =eliminate=, it reduces the frequency], & so on.
.
.
Feral cats may be innocent killers, but killers they are, & TNR does not work; 30-years of trying has not taken a single managed colony to zero cats.
For wildlife, TNR is a bad joke: the adults can't breed, but they keep on killing.
For the cats, TNR allows irresponsible owners to abandon their cats with less angst; after all, someone will be feeding them, right?...
So recruitment of new, often intact, colony members goes on forever.
For the cats, food may be provided & the Fs may be free of the nonstop cycle of heat / preg / kits / heat, but fights, cars, antifreeze-laced puddles in parking lots, hot weather, bitter cold, & all the myriad threats of injury or death continue nonstop.
.
TNR solves nothing; it's just a public-relations tool to pry donations from well-meaning folks who feel sorry for the cats, out there on their own.
It avoids the use of euthanasia to eliminate feral cats, & unpopular costly options like professional hunters & poison.
.
Wildlife are reaping the whirlwind for what we humans have sown.
Our planet is paying a huge cost for our vicious "pets", owned or not.
The sooner we admit this, the more damage, much of it irreparable, we can prevent.
.
.
.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

We should all live in high rises in the city. Reduce our impact on the countryside.

Seriously, the vast suburban sprawls so many of us like to live in have destroyed the habitats our wildlife calls home. We may worry about the impact of domestic cats, but all the time more countryside is being lost to housing estates.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

How on earth do you think any wildlife has survived in the UK in the 2,000 or so years since cats were introduced given how deleterious you think they are? It's easy to blame cats, maybe we need to rid ourselves of weasels & stoats, not to mention jackdaws and other corvids, and maybe owls to ensure birds and small rodents have a greater chance of survival?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Calvine said:


> @Dogloverlou: I recall that L4L was the one who was totally in agreement with the Texan vet (Kristen Lindsey...I think... was the name) who shot a cat thro' the head and posted a picture on social media of her holding the cat, still with the arrow thro' its head. She was subsequently kicked out of the practice she worked for as her employers were not impressed with her ''achievement''.


She lost her licence to practice as a result of the hearing a few months ago.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> How on earth do you think any wildlife has survived in the UK in the 2,000 or so years since cats were introduced given how deleterious you think they are? It's easy to blame cats, maybe we need to rid ourselves of weasels & stoats, not to mention jackdaws and other corvids, and maybe owls to ensure birds and small rodents have a greater chance of survival?


Because, as usually occurs in threads on this subject, things descend into a hysterical witch hunt.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> Fab, do they include those breakdowns?


There is plenty of published research on this exact subject. Just use Google Scholar instead of regular Google, which tends to turn out a lot of dross amongst the useful stuff.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> it's simply not possible, given the sheer number & concentration of free-roaming cats in the UK, including all 3 categories [owned pet, abandoned former pet, born feral] that cat predation is NOT having any significant effect -
> as we aren't "merely" talking about songbirds, adult, nestling, or fledgling, but all the other species & ages or stages that cats will & do take, including everything from eggs [amphibian, reptile, bird] to breeding adult, nest-bound infant, or immature subadult, & anything a cat might encounter & pounce on:
> lizards, butterflies, katydids, grasshoppers, snakes, salamanders, birds, shrews, moles, voles, rabbits, hares, leverets, mice, water rats, hedgehogs, & a huge number of "etcetera".
> ...


Again, much of this you have tried to argue before but have not got actual evidence to back up your claim. Am really not sure you understand cats that much either as you seem to think they are all the same when it comes to hunting & being outside. Maybe you should do some research regarding cats themselves, their behaviours, their routines, etc & then you may realise that there is so much variation between them.

I have had indoor & outdoor cats, I have had timid cats, bold cats, people friendly cats, hunters, etc & they all have different likes/dislikes. One of my cats never caught anything in his life, he was terrified of wildlife, whilst he would play with toys I had bought/,made to stimulate his predatory behaviour he would run away from any mice or birds that he came across when outside.

My current cats are prolific hunters; rats, mice & the odd shrew. I have a rodent problem where I live so am happy that they actually do do something useful & keep the numbers down. They do not hunt birds or have shown any interest in doing so (except one zebra finch who made the mistake of keep coming in my house), they do not usually go out in the day, unless the occassional sun bathing session but prefer to hunt at night.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Dogloverlou said:


> We tried a harness on our youngest cat, and he refused to move. Granted we hadn't spent many weeks/months conditioning it to him, but all the same, it just wasn't him. However, I'd prefer to go that route and give my cat some outside access...even walks around the road or whatever, then not let them have outside access at all.
> 
> A question for those who haven't answered it, but in the case of my neighbour which I posted about who tried keeping their cat contained & actually are very concerned about the dangers outside and would prefer to keep their cats indoors/outside contained, if that cat does not tolerate it or enjoy it ( and this cat was sounding very distressed and it made me quite uncomfortable listening to her meowing ) what is the solution then? Do you physically force that cat indoors regardless of it's mental wellbeing? Do you let it out again, knowing she typically stays very close to home and barely leaves the general vicinity of her home, or do you take such drastic measures as having her PTS because your over riding belief of not letting a cat out?


You could try again starting with just a collar and take it step by step. It does take a little time and patience to condition but I've normally succeeded after a couple of weeks working a few times a day.

How long are they putting the cat outside for?

The HBs tend to prefer frequent shorter bouts of going in the run rather than spending hours out there all on their own.

Huck will "talk" (to himself I think, though it could be to the birds, or whoever happens to be listening as a running commentry) first thing in the morning in his run, but if I ask him if he wants to come in, he goes quiet ,which indicates to me he's happy to stay there. It probably sounds odd to a neighbour but you can tell it's not a "distressed" meow. When he has had enough he sits looking at the the house and if I ask him then does he want to come in I get a definite proper yes meow.

How long have the neighbours been trying containment for? It takes a couple of weeks for a cat to adapt to a new routine.

Can they try just putting the cat in the run for shorter periods of time 5/10 mins to begin with and work up to a bit longer? Can they add some familiar things in the run? Water, perhaps a litter tray, a bed, a scratching post? I definitely suggest they have shelves in there if they haven't already because cats can get a better view of a much larger area.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> There is plenty of published research on this exact subject. Just use Google Scholar instead of regular Google, which tends to turn out a lot of dross amongst the useful stuff.


This is quite interesting ....... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1474-919X.2008.00836.x/full


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

http://icatcare.org/sites/default/files/PDF/kcs-rta-vets.pdf

The risk of being involved in a RTA is very high for free roaming cats. Depending on the estimation, the number of cats involved in RTAs in the UK each year could be as high as 865,000 cats. Consequences of RTAs are usually clinically serious and the mortality rate is higher than 20%. Preventing a cat from being in a RTA while ensuring a high standard of welfare is difficult and it involves lots of effort from the owner.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> For the same legal reasons that in the UK if a dog runs in the road and causes an accident the dog owner is liable, *whereas if a cat does the same the cat owner isn't liable*.


This is just one of the things that I feel needs changed regarding cats.Why should everyone else be responsible for their animals when a cat owner is not,makes no sense to me.
Why should a driver (in this instance) be responsible for picking up the pieces when a cat darts out of nowhere causing an accident.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Okay, let me inject some facts and figures into this discussion.

In the UK, 90% of cats have daily outdoor access (Murray and Gruffydd-Jones, 2012).
In the USA, it's 50-60% (Rochlitz, 2005).
In Australia, it's 80% (Toribio et al, 2009).

Full disclosure - I don't know whether these figures refer only to unrestricted access or include outdoor access on a harness / in a pen etc. I have not read the original sources, and at the moment I do not have the time but if anyone wishes to download the full papers and find out they are more than welcome.

A 2003 US paper (Clancy et al) found that cat owners' reasons for keeping their cats indoors or letting them outdoors were 'mulitfactorial', but cats were more likely to be allowed outside if:
- they had been acquired a long time ago vs recently;
- the cats were previously strays;
- there were dogs in the household.

Abstract here: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2003.222.1541

A 2015 UK paper (O'Neill et al) looking at the ages and causes of death in over 4000 pet cats found a bimodal peak in mortality, with 5-6% of cats dying before their first birthday and 16-20% dying at ages 16 and 17 years. The median age of UK cats in this study was 14 years, with pedigree cats dying younger than DSH/DLH.

Full disclosure: a cause of death was not provided for nearly 20% of the cats, only an age. The cause of death was known for 3309 cats.

The overall most common causes of death in this paper were trauma (12%) and CKD (12%). Others, in quite close succession, were 'non-specific illness' (11%), cancer (11%) and 'masses' (which may or may not have been cancerous - it was not known in those cases) (10%). Of the trauma cases, 60% were attributed to RTA.

The age of the cat influenced the likely cause of death. For cats under the age of 5 years old, trauma was the most common cause of death (47%), with viral diseases a far second (6-7%). For cats over the age of 5, trauma only accounted for 6% of deaths. Overall, approximately 1 in 5 cats died before their fifth birthday.

This is an interesting paper, but lacks information on whether or not the cats were indoors or outdoors - which is a big limitation in my view. It also provides no information on the accuracy of the causes of death recorded, and the 'non-specific illness' may raise some eyebrows. A similar study repeated with information on the indoor/outdoor lifestyle of the cats would be helpful.

Paper is here: http://researchonline.rvc.ac.uk/8438/1/8438.pdf

And another opinion on it by the fabulous SkeptVet here (forgive me linking to a non-scientific source): http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2015/03/longevity-causes-of-death-in-pet-cats/

Hot off the press (this was published literally *YESTERDAY*) is a paper from Wilson et al (2017) looking at risk factors for RTA in cats under 12 months of age.

Of 1264 cats under the age of 12 months, 49 (4%) had been involved in an RTA in that first year. 75% of the RTAs were fatal and another 17% involved serious injuries. The study did not look at indoor cats, presumably because they would not have been expected to be involved in RTAs in the first place. However, 40% of the cats were reported by their owners to be 'mostly indoors' as opposed to 'equally indoors/outdoors or mostly outdoors'. 88% of the cats involved in RTA fitted into the second category, with only 13%* of RTA cats being 'mostly indoors'.

* Yes, I am aware that 88+13 = 101%, that's scientific papers for you!

This is an interesting paper that delves into risk factors for RTA including sex, breed, colour of cat, hunting tendencies, road types nearby (straight vs corners, streetlights, speed limits etc) and timing of accidents.

Overall, cats were found to be at higher risk of RTA if they had a tendency to hunt or if the owner reported living close to a 'long, straight section' of road. Obviously, as with any study based on questionnaires from owners, there remain limitations with this. But it's still quite an interesting read.

Abstract here: http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/early/2017/01/11/vr.103859.short?g=w_vr_ahead_tab

If anyone wants the full paper, drop me a PM and I'll tell you how to get it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, OrientalSlave:
How on earth do you think any wildlife has survived in the UK in the 2K or so years since cats were introduced, given how deleterious you think they are?

It's easy to blame cats, maybe we need to rid ourselves of [all wild predators] - weasels, stoats, ... jackdaw, other corvids, & maybe owls to ensure birds & small rodents have a greater chance of survival?
/QUOTE
.
don't be daft.
the British Isles aren't a coral reef, with a numerous & varied popn of multiple shark species driving the health of the entire ecosystem, but native predators are not found in literally THOUSANDS per square kilometer, as housecats often are - nor are native predators subsidized: they aren't fed regularly, don't get water provided from clean sources, aren't treated for injuries & illness, aren't sheltered from severe weather, as housecats who are both owned & roam, are.
.
Yes, habitat loss is a severe threat.
But adding cat-predation ON TOP OF habitat loss, traffic deaths, window-strikes, windmill collisions, abductions by children or adults, & other HUMAN-caused deaths to wildlife, such as pesticide / herbicide / non-target poisonings, & so on, to "natural" wildlife deaths by drought, flood, food-plant failures, exposure / hyper- & hypothermia, etc, some of which area also now human-caused & human-exacerbated [climate change causes both more droughts, & more floods - & more extreme weather events of all kinds, from greater wind-shear at coastlines to changes in rainfall patterns that can persist for years],
is adding yet-more injury to an already-existing insult.
.
Cats, moreover, compete with native predators.
Sparrowhawks, fox, owls, badgers, & many-more native predators would love to eat the sparrow, vole, or mouse that cat left behind for the maggots to feast on, before going back home for a bowl of shrimp & sardines -- the impact of cats' obligate-carnivore diets on the fish & shellfish of the world is considerable, too.
.
cat-owners use the resources of many fisheries, to satisfy picky kitties' appetites.
Pet-foods are a multi-billion dollar business, & literally millions of animals, many of them wild stock, die to make pet-food - much of it for cats, as dogs' omnivorous abilities mean they are far-less meat dependent.
.
U can, if U insist, have a vegetarian dog, or even a vegan dog - with a good well-made diet.
Vegetarian cats are impossible, & vegan cats are a dream for GMO labs to create.
.
.
Roaming cats have far-reaching consequences, & it's not just the individual cat or their family that is affectued & thus has an interest, if not a vote, in that decision - Indoors or Outdoors affects the planet, not just a few blocks of a housing development.
.
Even farm-dwellers can't keep barn-cats with impunity, knowing as we do now how dangerous & how widespread Toxo is.
Contaminated water systems are no longer "only a threat in undeveloped / developing nations".
Municipal water-borne outbreaks have already occurred. More -will- occur, in the future, unless we act to reduce the numbers of roaming cats.
.
.
the world has quite literally never had this many housecats - & like it or lump it, the day of the carefree roaming pet-cat is coming to an end.
.
Mandatory chipping would reduce the number of abandoned cats, as owners could be traced & prosecuted.
Personally, in the U-S, i hope to see a successful prosecution soon of an owner whose pet-cat kills an endangered species.
The fine will be enormous, & daunting. If nothing else, legal bankruptcy as a prospect might force irresponsible arsewipes to keep their bl**dy cats at home, indoors or confined to their OWNER'S property.
.
.
.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

buffie said:


> This is just one of the things that I feel needs changed regarding cats.Why should everyone else be responsible for their animals when a cat owner is not,makes no sense to me.
> Why should a driver (in this instance) be responsible for picking up the pieces when a cat darts out of nowhere causing an accident.


I assume it's because it would be very difficult to police, plus in the case of feral or stray cats there would be nobody responsible.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> For the same legal reasons that in the UK if a dog runs in the road and causes an accident the dog owner is liable, whereas if a cat does the same the cat owner isn't liable.


I've always found this a strange idiosyncrasy of UK law. In the US if an animal causes an accident or damage to a person or property, you are responsible. Doesn't matter if it's a dog, livestock, or a cat.

Yes, proving ownership is tricky, and the law is hard to enforce. It's very common around here when a cow gets loose and causes an accident, all of a sudden, no one knows who owns the cow or who's pasture that is with the broken fence 

But at least the law treats all owned animals the same. If my cat is roaming and gets in to someone's yard and bites someone, I'm just as responsible if it were a dog. I think that's fair.

And yes, there are cats out there who will do that. Years ago a neighbor had a cat who would hide under the parked cars on the street and jump out and attack people walking by, latching on to legs biting and clawing. The neighbors found out their cat was doing this and I think had him destroyed


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I assume it's because it would be very difficult to police, plus in the case of feral or stray cats there would be nobody responsible.


I agree it wouldn't be easy at all,but every law has to have a starting point .
If all owned cats had to be microchipped as dogs are then it would be a step in the right direction.Also the very threat of a court case being brought against an owner who allowed their cat to cause a nuisance to others may just make them think when they next open the door allowing their loved pet out to free roam.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

huckybuck said:


> You could try again starting with just a collar and take it step by step. It does take a little time and patience to condition but I've normally succeeded after a couple of weeks working a few times a day.
> 
> How long are they putting the cat outside for?
> 
> ...


Thanks for answering. You seem to be the only one who can. Unfortunately I probably wouldn't have much influence into what my neighbours do. I think they tried containing the cat for only a few days before they gave up and let her out again. Our gardens are very small indeed and their one in particular is chock-a-block with all kinds of things so I doubt they'd have the room to build a proper enclosure. But I know their primary owner is deeply worried about allowing her out and about, however so far she seems to hang around directly behind the gardens and doesn't really range, just likes that freedom I guess. I often see her shoot past my garden gate in the evenings. Their other cat barely leaves the garden at all and they're not as concerned about him getting lost/into trouble. If they was ever to mention containing her again though I'd definitely give them some of the tips you mentioned above.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> speaking of "missing kitties", another vivid experience that would be missed,
> not so much by the cat in Q but by the owner here on PF-uk, is the opportunity to post a *gasp*, 'My cat didn't come home!...' thread, & suck-up all that sympathy.
> The drama! the pathos! - the chance to stiffen that upper lip!
> ...


Harsh! However, I do know what you mean. I generally don't comment on those threads, I find it best to sit on my hands.



Blaise in Surrey said:


> While what's written below is hard to read, I applaud your bravery, leashedForLife, in writing it, because it is exactly how I feel when reading those 'lost cat' threads. And no, I don't lack compassion, and I certainly don't gloat in anyway, as an indoors-only cat owner.... I just feel very sad for the owner, and desperate for the cat, and utterly frustrated at the total unnecessary waste of it all.....


Exactly how I feel. I feel sorry for both cat and owner, but in the back of my mind I can't help thinking how this could have all been avoided.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Okay, let me inject some facts and figures into this discussion.
> 
> In the UK, 90% of cats have daily outdoor access (Murray and Gruffydd-Jones, 2012).
> In the USA, it's 50-60% (Rochlitz, 2005).
> ...


There are some really interesting studies listed on Google scholar. Some I started reading were about behaviourial probelms with indoor cats but unfortunately I could only read extracts as as it was one I had to purchase for the full text


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

I've been trying to ignore the holier-than-thou, @leashedForLife's ridiculous rants. I just can't compete with a perfect pet owner.










leashedForLife said:


> The fine will be enormous, & daunting. If nothing else, legal bankruptcy as a prospect might force irresponsible arsewipes to keep their bl**dy cats at home, indoors or confined to their OWNER'S property.


You are getting hilarious to the point of being hysterical. Legal bankruptcy!!! Why stop at financial ruin and loss of your home? Why not allow someone to be dragged through the streets of Manchester and put in the stocks for the baying public to pelt rancid vegetables at?









Yes, I am being flippant/stupid/lending nothing to the argument, but when someone has appointed themselves as the perfect pet owner, and anyone who dares have a different view is some kind of vile, negligent being, I can't help it. 
Why get irritated, when I can just laugh at the ridiculous nature of their arrogance?









I'm off now, I need to go and remove my hair-shirt and self-flagellate for my crimes against humanity for ever allowing Betty to go outside, even though she'd been doing this for 11 years before we rescued her.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Jackie C said:


> I've been trying to ignore the holier-than-thou, @leashedForLife's ridiculous rants. I just can't compete with a perfect pet owner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On this forum, it is sensible to ignore posts from certain members if they exasperate you. I learned that a long time ago. (I have a little list and I am sure I am on others' lists!)

Ditto certain topics.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

QOTN said:


> On this forum, it is sensible to ignore posts from certain members if they exasperate you. I learned that a long time ago. (I have a little list and I am sure I am on others' lists!)
> 
> Ditto certain topics.


I think you are correct. This debate has been balanced and interesting otherwise.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Jackie C said:


> I think you are correct. This debate has been balanced and interesting otherwise.


It has & i understand that people are passionate about this subject but I can't help but feel that it seems (& I may be wrong) that the majority of those who can see both sides are those who allow their cats free access to outside.

I also wonder how it would be perceived if posts were made were made with accusations again those who choose to keep their cats indoors that they are depriving their cats, could be contributing to behavioral problems, etc .... calling the owners selfish & ignorant (rather than irresponsible & a*sewipes as in this thread towards those of us who let our cats outside) ....... just a thought!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Reduce our impact on the countryside.


Spot on! Far more species of birds are dying out due to, as you say, loss of habitat, but equally as many from use of pesticides. Man kills more birds than cats ever will.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

buffie said:


> Why should a driver (in this instance) be responsible for picking up the pieces


@buffie: The driver is not responsible for picking up the pieces tho'...they are not obliged to stop or to report the ''accident''. Altho' many people would choose to stop. I have stopped a couple of times when the cat was hit by someone else's car, not mine.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> irresponsible arsewipes


You mean, like many cat owners on PF who let their cats out? You really know how to make friends!!


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> It has & i understand that people are passionate about this subject but I can't help but feel that it seems (& I may be wrong) that the majority of those who can see both sides are those who allow their cats free access to outside.
> 
> I also wonder how it would be perceived if posts were made were made with accusations again those who choose to keep their cats indoors that they are depriving their cats, could be contributing to behavioral problems, etc .... calling the owners selfish & ignorant (rather than irresponsible & a*sewipes as in this thread towards those of us who let our cats outside) ....... just a thought!


My cat is an indoor only cat but I can definitely see why some people let theirs out in certain areas etc or for cats that really long to be outside. Whichever is best for the situation


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Calvine said:


> @buffie: *The driver is not responsible for picking up the pieces tho'.*..they are not obliged to stop or to report the ''accident''. Altho' many people would choose to stop. I have stopped a couple of times when the cat was hit by someone else's car, not mine.


I'm aware of that........it was a figure of speech.
Thank god I have never hit a cat "yet" but I would be devastated if I did and although it wouldn't be my fault I would live with the nightmare for a very long time.
There is also the small matter of any damage done to a vehicle/vehicles if emergency action is taken to avoid hitting a cat and people are injured in a resulting accident .
Unless I'm mistaken the law states that if avoiding an animal on the road causes an accident then the driver is deemed responsible for causing the accident,seems your damned if you do and damned if you don't.
If it had been a dog there could be a claim against the dogs owner but the way the law stands just now,no claim can be brought against the cats owner


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

AlexPed2393 said:


> My cat is an indoor only cat but I can definitely see why some people let theirs out in certain areas etc or for cats that really long to be outside. Whichever is best for the situation


I think most people are able to see both sides as there is never a right or wrong answer .... IMO 

Just something that got me thinking earlier tho that in all the years I have ben on the forum I have not read any thread critical of indoor cats or name calling people who do decide to keep their cats inside (I may have missed some so apologies if this happened!) but plenty directed at owners who allow their cats free access.


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## Canarie (Sep 4, 2013)

I have had cats most of my life until recently when my cat got killed by a dog.
It would never cross my mind not to let my cat have access to outside.If I lived near a main road etc I wouldn't have a cat.Yes,there is a risk of being run over,killed by a dog as mine was.But,I see it as my cat having a " normal" life.(This is not intended as criticism of indoor cats)
I am the same person who does not approve of zoos.I believe animals belong in the wild,however short that life may be.Circle of Life.

Canarie


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

If my cat got killed by a dog I would never have a free roaming cat again, I cannot imagine how horrific that must have been for the poor cat


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

buffie said:


> I'm aware of that........it was a figure of speech.
> Thank god I have never hit a cat "yet" but I would be devastated if I did and although it wouldn't be my fault I would live with the nightmare for a very long time.


O/H witnessed our neighbour's cat get run over and die in excruciating pain.

He stopped to help, picked the cat up out of the road and it was in complete agony. It died in his arms.

He was in pieces for weeks over it - I have never seen a grown strong man shed so many tears. He says he still can't get the image of the cat suffering out of his head to this day and it happened 2 years ago. It makes him feel sick and he still gets upset if we talk about it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
Jackie C,
when i spoke of "legal BANKRUPTCY", it was in ref to owners whose cat killed an endangered species -
IOW, a Federal violation of the Endangered Species Act of the USA.
.
it has zero to do with UK-owners.
Praps next time, read the post?
.
.
.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

We've had Holly for a week and a half now, she doesn't seem bothered about going out. (Not that I would let her out yet for a few weeks, anyway). I am hoping she continues this way. If she is desperate to go out in the summer (or when we have a window/door open), I may, with reluctance, let her out.


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> Jackie C,
> when i spoke of "legal BANKRUPTCY", it was in ref to owners whose cat killed an endangered species -
> IOW, a Federal violation of the Endangered Species Act of the USA.
> ...












Sorry, not sorry.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Hahahahahaha, @Jackie C ........ love the Vic & Bob pic!!!


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> Hahahahahaha, @Jackie C ........ love the Vic & Bob pic!!!


"There is no good in arguing with the inevitable. The only argument available with an east wind is to put on your overcoat."


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Moving thisv thread for a good read through and to confer with other mods.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Re-opening this. Feelings are obviously running high, but can we please keep to a considered, civil debate with no name calling, bad language or ranting ? Any more of such postings will lead to a permanent thread closure, sorry.


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## Canarie (Sep 4, 2013)

moggie14 said:


> If my cat got killed by a dog I would never have a free roaming cat again, I cannot imagine how horrific that must have been for the poor cat


I agree it must have been horrific.
Still,if it was a choice between an indoor cat or no cat I would choose no cat.
One day we will rescue another cat and will be an outdoor cat.

Canarie


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
Jackie C, i didn't ask for any apology.
.
I pointed out that Ur quote of my post re "legal bankruptcy" completely removed any of the key context:
That i referred to free-roaming cats *in the U-S*, not the U-K;
that i specified an owned cat that killed an endangered species;
that the owner would be charged with violating the E.S.A, a Federal law;
& that the resulting fine, if they were convicted, would be enormous.
.
It's really quite simple: that legal precedent may finally convince cat-owners who persist in letting Kitty roam to keep her or him safely confined, away from wildlife, to avoid paying putative damages.
.
We literally can't afford to lose 1 coastal Grasshopper Sparrow, 1 Florida Scrub-jay, 1 Calif salamander... there are multiple species that are barely holding on.
"Killed by housecat" is not a natural death, nor is it 'proof' that these species "deserve to die" because they aren't sufficiently evolved to outbreed cat predation.
.
I hope this explains why a partial quote, followed by an outrageous exaggeration that *you personally*, Jackie C, would be bankrupted, is completely misleading.
I'm worried about critically-endangered native species, treated as chew-toys by roaming cats in the U-S.
It has nothing to do with U-K owners or U-K cats - altho i'dd be willing to bet the U-K also has endangered birds, reptiles, butterflies, amphibians, & more, who are being killed by roaming cats there, just as endangered species in the U-S are killed by cats.
.
more than 30% of all the birds in the world are listed as 'threatened' on the Int'l Red List; i'm sure some of them live or breed in the U-K.
.
.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

@SusieRainbow @lymorelynn MODs sorry but I really think this thread is done, and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way!!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I think you could be right.:Locktopic


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