# Rebalancing the pack structure.



## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Post removed as the negative posts have damaged any use it could possible have been.


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

Just read this, sorry but i think this is a load of cr*p. Contrary to what some people think, dogs whole lives don't revolve around dominance!

My dogs enter the house first, i feed them first, they get on the sofa sometimes, on my bed, i play tug roughly, they don't have to earn every treat, and i most definatley wouldn't limit affection. I can take the bone out of my dogs mouth, i can touch any part of her i want.

Dogs aren't robots, they have feelings!

I my dogs pack, she has a GSD, a shar pei, and a labrador. The eat bones in the back of the car together, taking eachothers, no squabbles. You know why, because they have been trained correctly, allowed to be dogs, allowed to express themselves (human stepping in when necessary) and have positive reinforcement when they are good, not negative punishment when the misbehave.

This is where so many people go wrong, they only 'train' the dog when its being bad. The only want to stop the bad behaviour, instead of thinking how to make the good behaviour shine through


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Your entitled to your opinion. As am I and I'm happy your packs well balanced. The programs for dogs that aren't!!!! That's it's point and it works for all the cases I prescribe it for. Go you and your greatness and boo those who need help. Fool.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

karen said:


> Fool.


My dog are allowed on the sofas, they enter the house first, they are the first to eat in the morning and I play tug games and play fight with them. 

They very rarely step out of line and if they do they need no more than a quick sharp "oi" to stop them doing what they were intending. Dogs that board with us quickly fall into line and after a week dogs are more often than not as well behaved as our own.

If you ignore a dog it isn't going to respect you the same way it will if you show it love and make eye contact with it, like HandOnPaws said they have feelings.

My dogs know who is pack leader without following all the mumbochumbo about sofas and doorways. As they are well trained, happy and balanced dogs their whole life does not revolve around dominance. 

There are better ways to have a well balanced pack than removing all so called "privileges".


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

Sorry but i agree,our dogs sleep in our bed,on the sofa,we play tug of war they eat first and eat ours!all 3 get on well with no problems.They occasionly get a shout when they eat the cat food/tray contents,or snap at the cats!i dont particually feel that i need to excert my dominence over them.I suppose some dogs could have a problem with this,and in those cases the rules set out could possibly benefit.


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

What is it about people who feel the need to assert themselves over their dogs? I always feel its a bit of a cowards way. 'Im going to bully and scare my dog into submission, that way he'll be too scared to bite me'!


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

HandsOnPaws said:


> What is it about people who feel the need to assert themselves over their dogs? I always feel its a bit of a cowards way. 'Im going to bully and scare my dog into submission, that way he'll be too scared to bite me'!


And that's when you will usually get bitten,when there scared.

I'm the same as you Alan,my dogs are allowed on chairs, beds,fed before us,run through doors before us,but they know whats acceptable and what isn't.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

Exactly so long as they know whats right and wrong. 

Milo knows not to go on sofas or into rooms he's not invited in other peoples homes, we never taught him that so to speak he just knows he has to be invited before he can go anywhere new. Unlike most of the dogs that visit us he also knows not to mark his territory inside.

The pups are still at the stage where they are only allowed on the sofa by invitation but Milo has the freedom to get on whenever he wants so long as the throw is there. He knows he gets down when we are eating and not to play on the sofa. It has never caused a problem. He's totally non-aggressive.




> Prepare the dog's food in it's presence, then sit down to eat your food first before allowing the dog to have it's meal.


So basically; tease your dog with food? What is that going to achieve?




> Do not enter into tug of war or any strength games.


Why? It is a game! Most dogs favourite game too!




> Do not allow the dog to enter or leave the house first. Always have the dog behind you.


Not very practical really, I'd rather know all my dogs are safely in the house before I follow them in than leave them outside stood on the doorstep, a leap and a bound from the road.




> Never leave or enter the house till the dog is in a calm, submissive state. Make him sit and calm down before you leave / enter any property.


If a dog doesn't get excited about going "walkies" you're doing something wrong!




> Until the pecking order has firmly been re established Affection should be limited as should eye contact and general acknowledgement of the dog until it learns its new place.


So just ignore your dog till they behave? How does that work?

You're going to have to explain this to me Karen as it makes little sense to me!


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## Dennyboy (Jan 3, 2008)

My dogs dont live in a pack like wolves,they live with us as pets.

I dont let my dogs out the door before me as i dont know if any strays are out there,but i know they couldnt care if they go out first or not...

Dont play tug of war as the dog may win and think they are better than me  lol thats why they bring it straight back for another game  its not about who wins the dog doesnt go bragging down the pub  and i always put the toys away after we have finished playing or they get shredded...

I think alot of people need to move away from barbera woodhouses methods and realise that dogs aint wolves 

Mel


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

Dennyboy said:


> its not about who wins the dog doesnt go bragging down the pub


PMSL, are you sure?


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## Dennyboy (Jan 3, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> PMSL, are you sure?


no he's not earnd it yet,he's still sitting in the corner being ignored.


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## catzndogz (Mar 12, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> And that's when you will usually get bitten,when there scared.
> 
> I'm the same as you Alan,my dogs are allowed on chairs, beds,fed before us,run through doors before us,but they know whats acceptable and what isn't.


 i agree with you both my dogs get sofa before me but as you they know what is acceptable & what isn't.


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## catzndogz (Mar 12, 2008)

Dennyboy said:


> no he's not earnd it yet,he's still sitting in the corner being ignored.


 hehe


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> Exactly so long as they know whats right and wrong.
> 
> Milo knows not to go on sofas or into rooms he's not invited in other peoples homes, we never taught him that so to speak he just knows he has to be invited before he can go anywhere new. Unlike most of the dogs that visit us he also knows not to mark his territory inside.
> 
> ...


Teasing a dog with food surely could be a contributing factor in food aggression,as for the rest well yes an explanation would be good.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

Dennyboy said:


> no he's not earnd it yet,he's still sitting in the corner being ignored.


Now come on you can't ignore a Stafford,no matter how hard you try


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Teasing a dog with food surely could be a contributing factor in food aggression,as for the rest well yes an explanation would be good.


That's exactly what I was thinking!  Bit of a contradiction too when the first thing you teach kids about dogs is not to tease them with food!


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Rebalancing the pack structure or rank reduction program as it used to be called was all the rage when we got our first dog 15 years ago. I believe John fisher wrote the first book about rank reduction, but I will stand corrected on this, however not long before he died he said he had got it wrong. It has been slightly altered and rewritten in more recent years by a woman who writes books about dog behviour (she says)

I have never seen my dogs as wolves although they share he same DNA, through selective breeding we have bred an animal that is domesticated, and forever in a juvenile state. We have halted the dog in the juvenile state so it remains friendly and has offspring that are born also domesticated. 

I see my dogs as family members, and as such I am a parent figure, of course all dogs need bounderies and training.

What I have never understood is surely if an alpha wolf is being challenged, they fight the other wolf to the death of until one of them gives up, yet we are told to eat a biscuit before the dog and stand in its bed, not really the same is it ?


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

My dogs are also allowed on the furniture, but get off when told, and I play tug and always let them win.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

dh.dti said:


> Said the muppet...


PMSL, never got a reply about that did ya!


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## andrea 35 (Nov 22, 2007)

I can agree to a degree with some of the things posted at the start , i think the thing is its been put in such a matter of fact fashion that it seems there is no room for adaptation , The whole idea of relating a dog to a pack of wolves is that they fundamentally still have pack driven instincts and as such although over thousands of years these very primal urges and instincts have been diluted , they still have the basic desire to hunt ( going for a walk ) feed ( when we feed them ) and reproduce ( when we allow them to ) .
As a pack it is the alpha pair who are in charge of all choices the pack make and all subordinates look to the alpha pair to provide protection , food and to keep the pack alive by producing ofspring . We as dog owners provide protection , provide food and give it when we say so and the family is the pack structure . Many people never need to look into this way of dealing with dogs as they have somehow managed to keep the dog in its place by nothing more than luck , and training using other methods . There is nothing wrong with training your dog anyway that suits your lifestyle , some people go down the training class route some do it them selves , some who want to learn a little about dog psycology look into the way a dog thinks and tries to learn a little of the canine language . Its not that the origional poster is wrong in what was said it was the lack of explanation behind the bullet point rules and why for some people it has proven to be a very effective method . For example eating before your dog ! most people have thier dog in the room when its being dished up so thats nothing unusual . but it doesnt mean you then leave them in limbo to dribble while you go off and eat your sunday roast . You need to do little more than eat a biscut or even just pretend to eat thier food before you put it down for them , this is because as boss you would eat befor them and it relays the message that you are boss and not them, its simple and quite easy to understand , you wouldnt do it all the time either it just reinforces the fact that as humans in the greater scheme of things we are above our doggy companions . Its not a cruel thing same as not allowing them on the sofa unless you invite them up , all in all you can let your dog do whatever you want as long as its on your tearms and they understand that . I think posts such as this one have to be explained a little more to fully apreciate where your coming from its no good saying they cant do this that and the other without saying why , 
Andrea


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

andrea 35 said:


> Its not that the origional poster is wrong in what was said it was the lack of explanation behind the bullet point rules and why for some people it has proven to be a very effective method .


For once andrea i'm going to disagree with you! 

Dogs should do as you say because they love and respect you and know there will be rewards for doing so not because you have shown dominance over them.

Like Jenny said domesticated dogs aren't wild wolves, trained correctly they shouldn't be driven by pack mentality. Dogs will only be driven by pack mentality if they are treated as such.


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## andrea 35 (Nov 22, 2007)

LOL i was waiting for that !!! Its really hard in posts to get across your views sometimes without feeling lke your wafflin on a bit . I agree that they should do as you say because they love and respect you , respect because they understand where they belong in the grand picture .Its not about bullying tacktics its more subtle than that , really small things that unless your aware of them you wouldnt even know it was being done . And yes reward them all the time for doing what has been asked of them , play with them its not about hitler stly regimes . Its just knowing how a dog thinks and not applyng human emotion to thier actions , Im not saying a domesticated dog is a wolf cos they are not but they are direct descendents and as such do have some of thoes traits still imbeded in thier make up , we just dont see it because of the way they have setled into our lives .
On holiday a few years ago in Turkey i saw lots of stray dogs all in packs all donig the wild thing lol hunting for food in bins ect all following the leader all doing the best to keep alive by thier basic instincts . With no human interaction these behaviours are more apparent , as we give them no need to hunt ect because we feed them they do not when in the home act in this manner , but if push came to shove and our beloved pets were homeless they would draw on natural bascic instinct and display all the actions of wild dogs , This is just my opinion and im not thrusting it down anyones neck , and im not saying that i am right and you are wrong , I am trying to explain some of the myths surounding this way of thinking about the way dogs think . I dont have a strict hold on my dogs , how many times have you heard me say i cant have a 3rd dog as ive only got 2 sofas lol , Ive read a few books and i happen to agree to some level the thinking behind it all but as for practicing it i adapt it to suit us ,use some ways and use others a mixture of techniques , and as a result ive got farely well behaved doggies
Andrea


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

Peoples opinions of what a dominant dog are vary and that is why people disagree on this subject.

_In my opinion_ a dominant dog is cool, calm and confident in just about every situation. This is why they are leaders.

That list suggests that dominant dogs are aggresive and/or disobedient. _In my opinion_ a aggressive and/or disobedient dog is just poorly trained, under socialised or has been overly dominated or abused.

If you train and treat your dogs right from the begining you don't get aggressive or disobedient dogs.

I don't believe any dog will want to be pack leader if they are trained/treated correctly.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

ajshep1984 said:


> Peoples opinions of what a dominant dog are vary and that is why people disagree on this subject.
> 
> _In my opinion_ a dominant dog is cool, calm and confident in just about every situation. This is why they are leaders.
> 
> ...


Agree with everything you say Alan in this post.

The idea because the dog thinks it is pack leader it will pull on lead and not come back when recalled, is untrue, lack of training makes the dogs do these things, they are opportunists and will get the best they can out of any given situation.


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## Paula C (Mar 25, 2008)

well that made interesting reading this morning 

I must be a hopeless case lol.

My dogs always get fed 1st so I can enjoy my meal in peace!

The minute I say who wants to go for a walk both dogs run to the door excited!

By the time I open the door they are both in the house, we even joke saying 1st one ins a dog!

They are both happiest sitting on the sofa! But do get invited up so am I allowed to be let off for that one 

Puppy loves tug of war but if when playing she gets too nippy I shout ow and she lets go immediately so I know she understands.

But like someone else said if could take their bowls away if they are eating without any aggression or take something they shudn't have out of the mouth and they come when called and do as they are told so I know they know whos in charge, and I am never hard on them so I know its a mutual respect out of love ( aww sounds soppy) lol

Maybe I should write a book on everything u shudn't do


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## andrea 35 (Nov 22, 2007)

ajshep1984 said:


> Peoples opinions of what a dominant dog are vary and that is why people disagree on this subject.
> 
> _In my opinion_ a dominant dog is cool, calm and confident in just about every situation. This is why they are leaders.
> 
> ...


Allan i agree with you !!!! dont think that i am some barking mad dog psychologist I think its more down to individual dogs and thier owners who either have good controll or not . And if by some chance a dog displays manny of the dominant behaviours we so commonly associate with bad behaviour then its up to the owner to choose how best to re train the dog to be compliant to a degree that suits the owner , like i said the list was poorly proposed as it came across as being the be all and end all of dog training , its not by any means but in some cases using similar techniques have a possitive effect .so no when we got Daisy we did not need any of the methods mentioned in fact i didnt read the book untill about 6 months ago and when we got Jessie at christmas she is so chilled out we never applied any thing then either . But what i do know is that out of the 2 of them Daisy is the more dominant she is the one asking for attention all the time and thinks she is above Jessie which is fine cos they are dogs and thier choice to sort them selves out . we do not dominate them into submision in a negative way we use thier ability and thier thought process back on them to give us the behaviour we want .All ive been trying to do is let people know who are very closed down to such sudgestion or have never read up on it befor the differences it can make to training when you undestand a dogs thought process . Im not advocating it for every one i dont always use the techniques either, ive just read and understood it . First and foremost is a dogs happiness and soscialisation and luckily most dogs will be cool with whatever training we give them , but there is a place for such thinking if in the long run it makes the dog and the owners live a compatible co existance . So please dont poo poo me as ive been just trying to explain albeit in some small way why and how you can get results , Im not saying i do all thoes things on the list i mearly wanted to widen the thought to it .
When list like that are posted ive noticed how many of us jump up arms waving saying its wrong its wrong . but lets just say shall we that there is more than one way to skin a cat (pardon the saying ) and that we cant all be right all of the time . its down to personal choice . Advice is just that advice it doesnt mean that just because one person says that this is the right way that no one else is entitled to think the oposite or try different ways to see what suits them and thier situation . any way enough of me bleating on . 
Andrea


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I would just like to say that this post has once again deteriorated into a bit of a slanging match and that it is a shame.

Of course everyone has an opinion and it is right to express their opinion, but is there really a need to use derogatory comments 

I am also guilty of allowing my GSD's onto my bed on occasions, and there were times was Zak in particular would challenge me when I told him to get down. Hence he was not again allowed to share my bed (husband didn't like it either ). 

I personally believe that a dog needs structure in their lives, but equally I think a dog must also be a family member. 

Most aggression cases that I have seen are a direct consequence of being treated like a child and given a free range to do whatever they chose. In these cases it is well to return to the pack structure as in the initial thread. Yes, it is very Cesar Milan, but I thought we were all agreed that he is great at his job. Also quite lush  In my opinion that is


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> Most aggression cases that I have seen are a direct consequence of being treated like a child and given a free range to do whatever they chose. In these cases it is well to return to the pack structure as in the initial thread. Yes, it is very Cesar Milan, but I thought we were all agreed that he is great at his job. Also quite lush  In my opinion that is


I never agreed he was good at his job, I would never allow him to train mine.
Not a chance....


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

I have to disagree with most peoples views on the wolf thing, although domestic dogs are so far remved from wolves, they still retain a lot of the behaviours. And when allowed to exhibit certain behaviours, they will act and think of themselves as a pack.

Izzy spends a lot of time with her 'packmates' although she doesn't live with them. If ones is in trouble, the others are there quick as a shot to help/defend. When they get up in the morning after a sleepover, they have a ritual, cleaning, mouth licking, nibbling, all helping to reaffirm the bonds.

There can be a 'pack' without being Shaun Ellis!


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

Yep, i don't like Caeser either, or that Jan fennel!


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> Of course everyone has an opinion and it is right to express their opinion, but is there really a need to use derogatory comments


Wasn't me! 



sallyanne said:


> I never agreed he was good at his job, I would never allow him to train mine.
> Not a chance....


I wouldn't let him near my dogs either. 



HandsOnPaws said:


> There can be a 'pack' without being Shaun Ellis!


Who is Shaun Ellis?


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

The wolfman?

YouTube - Wolfman: Leader of the Pack


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## Tory01 (Mar 21, 2008)

HandsOnPaws said:


> The wolfman?
> 
> YouTube - Wolfman: Leader of the Pack


I want that first wolf cub....so cute...


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

Tory01 said:


> I want that first wolf cub....so cute...


I want them all, I envy that guy! Living with wolfs must be awesome!


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## Tory01 (Mar 21, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> I want them all, I envy that guy! Living with wolfs must be awesome!


Yes....I saw that on tv it was very good...


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

Tory01 said:


> Yes....I saw that on tv it was very good...


 I don't have National Geographic


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## Tory01 (Mar 21, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> I don't have National Geographic


I Think it was on 4 some time back.....


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

Tory01 said:


> I Think it was on 4 some time back.....


No good telling me that now!


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## Tory01 (Mar 21, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> No good telling me that now!


  SORRY...:


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Okay, so I am the only one then that feels Cesar Milan is good at his job


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

HandsOnPaws said:


> I have to disagree with most peoples views on the wolf thing, although domestic dogs are so far remved from wolves, they still retain a lot of the behaviours. And when allowed to exhibit certain behaviours, they will act and think of themselves as a pack.
> 
> Izzy spends a lot of time with her 'packmates' although she doesn't live with them. If ones is in trouble, the others are there quick as a shot to help/defend. When they get up in the morning after a sleepover, they have a ritual, cleaning, mouth licking, nibbling, all helping to reaffirm the bonds.
> 
> There can be a 'pack' without being Shaun Ellis!


I would call these dog behaviours as opposed to wolf behaviours. They are not far removed from human behaviours, defending those who are close to us, caring for their needs, does that make us pack animals too.

Packing is one of the social options available to the wolf, not all wolves in the world pack, it is depended on available prey size, if the available prey is big, they work as a pack, to capture and kill and bring to the den to feed the young. with small prey they can hunt and feed their yoiung independently.

Pack behaviours are epigenetic (above the genes), and are learnt during the critical period.

Although a group of untrained dogs will chase and pull down an animal, be it a rabbit, fox or deer, one starts the others follow the chase, they are not following a sophisticated pack structure, they are behaving like a bunch of hooligans.

Because our domestic dogs remain in a puppy like state (as compared to the wolf), they do not reach the stage in their life when a pack behaviour would onset.

I also find it difficult to believe that our dogs think we are the same species as them, do my dogs think I'm a wolf ? I don't think so , do I think my dogs are wolves ? no, I do not have six wolves in my living room.


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Your all missing the point! My dogs don't follow this program either... Because they are balanced. The post is for people with dogs who aren't. You can say what you want but it works and if you'll all read the posts you've all written you'll see you all have balanced dogs already. I see time and time again the effects of poor pack leadership. a human pack is a pack all the same. When a person is faced with an aggressive dog restructuring the pack in a non confrontational why works every time. It is not a mistake to allow your dog to do these things but when dogs become unbalanced through many different reasons people can make a real difference by applying this program. I shall remove the post because it's being misread.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

I definatly didn't misread it, I just don't agree with it, it's about as much use an e-collar! 

There are far better ways of going about things in the given situation than those guidelines and people have posted replies to that effect to encourage other people not to follow them!

At least you've removed the out dated rubbish now.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

dh.dti said:


> That's what happens when you watch too much Cesar M...


Muppet!


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## Gemma83 (Mar 5, 2008)

karen said:


> Your all missing the point! *My dogs don't follow this program either.*.. Because they are balanced. The post is for people with dogs who aren't. You can say what you want but it works and if you'll all read the posts you've all written you'll see you all have balanced dogs already. I see time and time again the effects of poor pack leadership. a human pack is a pack all the same. When a person is faced with an aggressive dog restructuring the pack in a non confrontational why works every time. It is not a mistake to allow your dog to do these things but when dogs become unbalanced through many different reasons people can make a real difference by applying this program. I shall remove the post because it's being misread.


Sorry, are you telling people to things that you don't do yourself? thats a little odd, most people share their current experinces on here


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

karen said:


> Your all missing the point! My dogs don't follow this program either... Because they are balanced. The post is for people with dogs who aren't. You can say what you want but it works and if you'll all read the posts you've all written you'll see you all have balanced dogs already. I see time and time again the effects of poor pack leadership. a human pack is a pack all the same. When a person is faced with an aggressive dog restructuring the pack in a non confrontational why works every time. It is not a mistake to allow your dog to do these things but when dogs become unbalanced through many different reasons people can make a real difference by applying this program. I shall remove the post because it's being misread.


And see time after time dogs who are confused and damaged by this kind of 'training' and advice


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## Gemma83 (Mar 5, 2008)

Just out of interest ..........
a) is this her own work - then why isn't she busy out some where charging people for her wisdom?
b) if its not - she dosn't actullly refernce the orgianal author anywhere that I can see, plaguism is not big or clever........


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

Alan's questions haven't been answered either


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I LIKE Cesar Milan


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## Gemma83 (Mar 5, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> I LIKE Cesar Milan


Is that the american guy on telly who looks a little like bill petterson (gill girsom CSI) ????


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Well it's saved many dogs lives, and that's good enough for me and my many happy clients' I am very busy and only joined this forum when i broke my leg. But as usual I'm not shocked by the type of idiot that these places attract. I laugh at you all because you have nothing better to do!!!:


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

karen said:


> Well it's saved many dogs lives, and that's good enough for me and my many happy clients' I am very busy and only joined this forum when i broke my leg. But as usual I'm not shocked by the type of idiot that these places attract. I laugh at you all because you have nothing better to do!!!:


Well it attracted you so I guess your right there!


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2008)

TousheY!!!:d


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

karen said:


> Well it's saved many dogs lives, and that's good enough for me and my many happy clients' I am very busy and only joined this forum when i broke my leg. But as usual I'm not shocked by the type of idiot that these places attract. I laugh at you all because you have nothing better to do!!!:


Thank you.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2008)

karen said:


> Well it's saved many dogs lives, and that's good enough for me and my many happy clients' I am very busy and only joined this forum when i broke my leg. But as usual I'm not shocked by the type of idiot that these places attract. I laugh at you all because you have nothing better to do!!!:


Is that directed at everyone that's commented on this thread then?

Clearly you weren't socialised as a puppy!!!


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> Clearly you weren't socialised as a puppy!!!


lol!!!!


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

karen said:


> Well it's saved many dogs lives, and that's good enough for me and my many happy clients' I am very busy and only joined this forum when i broke my leg. But as usual I'm not shocked by the type of idiot that these places attract. I laugh at you all because you have nothing better to do!!!:


I hope your 'clients' aren't reading this either!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

bump..............


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2008)

tashi said:


> bump..............


................................


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## Scabbers (Jul 26, 2013)

karen said:


> Your all missing the point! My dogs don't follow this program either... Because they are balanced. The post is for people with dogs who aren't. You can say what you want but it works and if you'll all read the posts you've all written you'll see you all have balanced dogs already. I see time and time again the effects of poor pack leadership. a human pack is a pack all the same. When a person is faced with an aggressive dog restructuring the pack in a non confrontational why works every time. It is not a mistake to allow your dog to do these things but when dogs become unbalanced through many different reasons people can make a real difference by applying this program. I shall remove the post because it's being misread.


The people who have poor "pack structure" tend to be the people who dont give a crap.

They are the people that let their dogs out the front door to sh*t in the street. Untrained people = untrained dogs


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

That's a blast from the past.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I think it's a shame that this way of thinking ever got the word "dominance" associated with it. BW didn't expound it, it was originally put together as a method by John Fisher, Ian Dunbar and others as a way to deal with dogs who had problems being dogs and had been convinced by their owners that they were either children, or Attilla the Hun.

Bearing in mind that at the time, there was little else available, it was a best available way to work these dogs into a trainable/re-programmable state of mind, and the whole point was to give out "soft" signals to the dog that it needed to look to the owner for leadership particularly in situations where the dog's judgement was going to be unreliable. There was no aggression involved in applying this.

Twenty years ago I used this a lot, and it worked, especially well for dogs who could be fear aggressive to other dogs, dogs who bit their owners, dogs who were resource guarding and dogs who appeared to be generally unmaneagable. If it did no good, then I never saw it do any harm.

Would I use it now?.....probably not as we are better educated, have far more available tools and better methods, but there must be something in it, as it worked so well.

Everything we apply now is built on what we have done in the past, be it the best or the worst.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2014)

Linda Weasel said:


> I think it's a shame that this way of thinking ever got the word "dominance" associated with it. BW didn't expound it, it was originally put together as a method by John Fisher, Ian Dunbar and others as a way to deal with dogs who had problems being dogs and had been convinced by their owners that they were either children, or Attilla the Hun.
> 
> Bearing in mind that at the time, there was little else available, it was a best available way to work these dogs into a trainable/re-programmable state of mind, and the whole point was to give out "soft" signals to the dog that it needed to look to the owner for leadership particularly in situations where the dog's judgement was going to be unreliable. There was no aggression involved in applying this.
> 
> ...


I used dominance theory on past dogs as well. It worked in that the dog no longer displayed the behaviors I was trying to get rid of. Sadly the dogs didnt display any other behaviors either.

Lack of behavior =/= well behaved 

Lots of things work. Eating nothing but lettuce and diet coke will work if youre wanting to lose weight. Doesnt make it advisable to do. And if youre wanting to lose weight for health reasons, it makes it even less advisable.

Same with dominance theory. Yeah, it works (or appears to), but its not really advisable, and even less so if youre wanting a safe family dog. I dont want to have a relationship with my family dogs thats based on a series of confrontations to be won. I dont care if the confrontation is with soft signals or alpha rolls, its still about creating confrontation and making sure the human wins". 
For me that doesnt work for what *I* want out of my dogs and what I expect of them in return. I want cooperation and partnership. A relationship based on mutual trust and developing a shared language. There is no need for confrontation in any of that, and in fact confrontation works directly in opposition to creating a cooperative relationship.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I think I may not have been clear in my previous post. Giving signals to a dog regarding leadership isn't confrontational. There is no "battle of wills" or physical intervention, and if there was then "the programme" was implemented wrongly. This was one of the first "hands off" methods to help to alter a dog's unwanted behaviour and worked, in conjunction with further training in the required alternative behaviours.
It's probably something that people who are experienced with dogs do all the time, although not necessarily these specific signals. As some people don't have this facility there was, at that time, a list of things for them to do (in the absence of any natural ability or empathy) to help them live in some sort of harmony with their dogs.
Like I said, it was the best we had at the time (was it as much as 30 years ago?), and since then we've moved on.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I've just read AJ's post where he quotes "the rules"......I assume this comes from Karen's post which was removed, and if this is what she's working with, then it is a garbled, chinese whisper sort of version, and quite a bit different from the original programme, which is now outdated.


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