# New puppy; breeder lied about age and maybe breed?



## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

so, my Aunt and her two teenage boys got a puppy off Gumtree. They thought they were getting a 9 week old shih tzu cross bichon frise as shown in photos sat beside a bichon. Price was around £150 but I think they maybe only paid £80. They were handed this palm sized puppy and a can of ADULT dog food and the breeder flew off. Now, they know nothing about puppies as I've said so they didn't see anything wrong with this.

Anyway, the puppy turned out to be only 5 WEEKS OLD. They had to feed it baby rice and puppy milk through a syringe, which is a big thing for people who have never had a pet before.

It's about 10-12 weeks old now, happy and healty and they all love it very much. However, I don't think it is a shih tzu X bichon, can anyone shed some light onto what it may be? We are all just curious as to what little Milo actually is!

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting first day they got him - 5 weeks old.

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting last week
Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting last week


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

Have you got a photo?


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

just added links to post, wasnt sure how to add photos


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

For some reason I can't see your original post only mine and what you just said. Its showing as 'viewing first unread' and I don't know how I changed it or how to change it back so I can see the original post with links?


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

I'm confused... am I missing the first post? :confused1:


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

I don't know where the post went, I wrote several long paragraphs and attached tinypic photo links as i didnt know how to attached files to original post


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

SageFemme said:


> I'm confused... am I missing the first post? :confused1:


you too??? thought it was just me had accidentally clicked on something! It was there a second ago!


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

I read the first post .... but now it's gone! 

(Couldn't see a pic of the dog tho)

J


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

So, my Aunt and her two teenage boys got a puppy off Gumtree. They thought they were getting a 9 week old shih tzu cross bichon frise as shown in photos sat beside a bichon, supposedly the mother. Price was around £150 but I think they maybe only paid £80. They were handed this palm sized puppy and a can of ADULT dog food and the breeder flew off. Now, they are new to the dog world so they didn't see anything wrong with this.

Anyway, the puppy turned out to be only 5 WEEKS OLD. It would stumble a lot when walking, They had to feed it baby rice and puppy milk through a syringe, which is a big thing for people who have never had a pet before. 

It's about 10-12 weeks old now, happy and healty and they all love it very much. However, I don't think it is a shih tzu X bichon, can anyone shed some light onto what it may be? We are all just curious as to what little Milo actually is!


(pic in hands is at 5 week old, other two are most recent at 10-12 weeks)


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

shanmac92 said:


> I don't know where the post went, I wrote several long paragraphs and attached tinypic photo links as i didnt know how to attached files to original post


It's not showing on anyone's it seems you'll have to post it again as a reply?

maybe newbies aren't allowed to add links to other sites?

To attach photo's.. when you've clicked reply or quote and get the white box up to type in.. scroll down and it says 'additional options'.. there you will see 'attach files' 
Click on 'manage attachments and find your photo's on your computer then click on upload wait until it shows the file name as an attachment under 'attach files' (such.. photo1.jpeg) .. then choose next photo to upload.. when you finished you can preview post to check they are there before clicking on 'submit reply'


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

shanmac92 said:


> So, my Aunt and her two teenage boys got a puppy off Gumtree. They haven't been dog lovers until recently and are completely new to the dog world, basically meaning they know nothing about what a puppy should look like by age or breed. They thought they were getting a 9 week old shih tzu cross bichon frise as shown in photos sat beside a bichon. Price was around £150 but I think they maybe only paid £80. They were handed this palm sized puppy and a can of ADULT dog food and the breeder flew off. Now, they know nothing about puppies as I've said so they didn't see anything wrong with this.
> 
> Anyway, the puppy turned out to be only 5 WEEKS OLD. It could barely stand on its own, or eat, never mind eat a can of pedigree adults soft dog food. They had to feed it baby rice and puppy milk through a syringe, which is a big thing for people who have never had a pet before.
> 
> ...


oh you managed it!!! I'd say it possibly had Jack Russell or Papillon in just its face in one pic and ears on another

Did it change colour too?? the first pic the head looks black but the other two its brown and white!


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

it has really thick fur, I was thinking maybe one parent of the dog was a jack russel cross, as it is definitely more something else. It was all a little shady, selling it for £80 when the advert was at £150, the pup only turning out to be 5 ish weeks when they said it was 9, and in the photos on gumtree there were 3 pups sat beside a bichon 'mum' dog, but to me I don't see any bichon in him as they are white and curly!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Looks more like a Jack Russell x Papillon.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

IncaThePup said:


> oh you managed it!!! I'd say it possibly had Jack Russell or Papillon in just its face in one pic and ears on another
> 
> Did it change colour too?? the first pic the head looks black but the other two its brown and white!


just the lighting makes it look black, but it was definitely a lot darker brown when they first got it at 5 weeks old, the brown colour has lightened quite a bit actually, and he was also smooth haired at 5 weeks but now you can barely find his skin under all that thick fur!


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

I'd be less concerned that it was adult food and more so that it was Pedigree 

I see jack russell; don't see where that ear set would come from in a shih tzu x bichon
Could very well still have a bichon mother though - being a mix, he wouldn't necessarily have the bichon coat


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

I'm no expert but looks like there's JRT in there. Can't believe they would sell a 5 week old puppy


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I see Jack Russell and maybe Chihuahua.

The colouring could be Shi Tzu but I don't see any Bichon at all.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> They thought they were getting a 9 week old shih tzu cross bichon frise


To be honest when you cross two breeds you can get any variation of either of the breeds (or something that looks nothing like either). The pup is cute and could quite possibly be a Shih x Bichon.....

J


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

Got my Aunt to send me the photo she took today - 

any ideas?


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

SageFemme said:


> I'm no expert but looks like there's JRT in there. Can't believe they would sell a 5 week old puppy


especially to a family, two 40+ adults, and two kids 17 and 13, who made it quite clear this was their first ever pet, first dog, and they would have to learn as they went along, albeit they did have me on hand and their puppy handbooks, but thats beside the point, even the most experienced dog lover would be wary about taking on a 5 week old pup!!
Irresponsible dog owner who clearly never bothered neutering their dogs and wanted to make a quick profit!


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## MyAnimals (Aug 14, 2014)

I think he looks like a fluffy Jack Russell. So my guess would by JRT x fluffy dog (shih tzu or bichon could both fit that description as could many others). I suppose the main thing is that he's happy, healthy and in safe hands.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I have seen pictures of Jack Russell/Chihuahua crosses looking very similar to your pup.

The thing is, it may well be a Shi Tzu/Bichon cross, but those ears suggest there is something else in the mix.

You have no way of knowing what was behind the Parents and really, there could be a few different small Breeds in the mix.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sweety said:


> I have seen pictures of Jack Russell/Chihuahua crosses looking very similar to your pup.
> 
> *The thing is, it may well be a Shi Tzu/Bichon cross, but those ears suggest there is something else in the mix.
> 
> You have no way of knowing what was behind the Parents and really, there could be a few different small Breeds in the mix.*


this.
could well be that the mum is the bichon and dad was a 3/4 shih tzu and 1/4 JRT... or that more than one male bred her... unfortunately with a mix you just can't be sure unless you see it happening and Know it was the only mating.

i can see terrier in those ears and that nose, but can definitely see shih tzu in the coat... 
is he long coated or a short, casting coat? (not that that's a sue way to determine parentage, but could give you a slightly better idea.)
had they seen the litter together they may have had a better idea.

it may be time to simply give up on finding the cross, and just introduce him to people as a wee mutt or unknown crossbreed... he looks like a dote though!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

He is very cute, and as already said, could very well be a Bichon x Shih Tzu. Puppies can also look very different from their adult self, so his coat will likely change as he matures. But I see JRT too. 

Just a little observation, but his eye looks quite weepy/tear stained in that second picture? I'm assuming he has a seen a vet already and started his vaccinations? There is stuff you can buy for tear stains but might be worth your Aunt checking with the vet first.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

shanmac92 said:


> just the lighting makes it look black, but it was definitely a lot darker brown when they first got it at 5 weeks old, the brown colour has lightened quite a bit actually, and he was also smooth haired at 5 weeks but now you can barely find his skin under all that thick fur!


some breeds can change colour more than others that may give you a clue to what breeds are in him eventually but you'd have to see what his final size/colours were.

Some like Yorkie and Border Terrier can have alot of black on them as puppies and end up brown faces, steely grey coat on back (yorkie) or more brown (BT).

I wouldn't have picked bichon and shih tzu from seeing photo I'd have guessed Jack Russell cross, but if his coat is getting thicker he could have got that from a bichon mother.

My eldest is jet black and is meant to have maltese & pug in her cross..lol! she's the size and looks of a slim labrador ..I'd have guessed lab x whippet maybe bit of collie.

It doesn't really matter, just think he's totally unique! (and mongrels are cheaper to insure!)


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## WiggleButt (Jan 19, 2014)

I see a little chihuahua in there, eyes and ears. Either way, very cute, and those ears are gorgeous.


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## HappyWag (Aug 25, 2012)

Looking at the pics Could be Chihuahua in there or Papillon.
Glad the little dog id now doing okay. He's A cute little thing


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

He's adorable, I'd say a Papillon x Jack Russell (Or he could be a heinz, a mix of a few small breed dogs).


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

It's really hard to know what breeds are in there, especially in such a young dog. As he grows up you may get a better indication of what breeds are in there, but you'll probably never know.

Unfortunately selling very young puppies just to make a bit of cash is no new scam, most likely a backyard-breeder or puppy farmer getting rid of any left-over pups so they can immediately start breeding from mum again. That is unless she is ill/died/rejected puppies.

He's very cute, his ears are just adorable! I think he could have some papillon or chihuahua to get those ears, and his domed skull and bug eyes could be chi as well. 

Colouring wise it could be terrier, could be shih-tzu, the coat could give an indication but you might not know until he's grown up. If he gets a coat that needs a professional groom then they might be able to shine a light on what breeds are in there due to coat type, but if he's a big mix then it will only really be guess work.

He's a cute little thing, I'm glad they persevered with him when they found out he was so young and needed a lot of care, I bet they completely adore him


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Whatever he is he's a cute little fella!


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

both his eyes weep, my aunt cleans his face daily but assuming he is genuinely part shihtzu, or even chihuahua, they have weepy eyes anyway so this could be where its coming from!

He's up to date with vaccinations, worming, fleas etc, has been to the vet several times since he was so young when they got him and they're inexperienced dog owners so they're basically at the vets weekly asking for advice and check ups!


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

shanmac92 said:


> both his eyes weep, my aunt cleans his face daily but assuming he is genuinely part shihtzu, or even chihuahua, they have weepy eyes anyway so this could be where its coming from!
> 
> He's up to date with vaccinations, worming, fleas etc, has been to the vet several times since he was so young when they got him and they're inexperienced dog owners so they're basically at the vets weekly asking for advice and check ups!


What does he eat?
Diet can play as much part as genetics for weepy eyes


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

Thanks everyone, we were all thinking maybe part Chihuahua since the ears stick up so much! 
But saying that, why would the breeder post a Gumtree advert saying they were bichon cross shihtzu-? jack russell cross chihuahuas sell for over £100 as well and they can be quite the popular little breed as full bred chi's can be £300+!
Just baffled me as the picture showed 3 little similar looking pups snuggled up to a bichon but there doesn't seem to be ANY bichon in him, don't no why they would lie really, even if they were looking a quick sale, jack/chihuahuas sell well anyway!

Milo is in a loving family and everyone loves him regardless but any visitors that come in or people on the street always ask what he is and all debate about his real breed! My aunt was thinking of maybe getting a doggy DNA test from the vets just because it's driving us all insane!!:lol:


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Bichons and ShihTzus have long backs, and shortish legs, so it might be he's got neither in him, but I'd like to introduce my Bichon Frieze crossbreed...

You just can't tell what they might inherit from their parents. Tinker has lots of small bits which are Bichon-y, but most people just see the terrier in him.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

BlueJay said:


> What does he eat?
> Diet can play as much part as genetics for weepy eyes


As far as I can remember he eats food recommended by the vet to build up his strength etc since he was so little and shouldn't have been away from his mum;
I only see him maybe once a week since I work and he's my aunts dog so I couldn't really tell you very much about the food he eats or anything


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

He is a really lucky and sweet little mongrel and they did really well to rear him and turn him into what he is.
Did they not see the mother and the other pups.


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## shinra (Aug 9, 2013)

I would say some sort of Papillon cross, definitely not chihuahua imo.


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## Papirats (Mar 26, 2014)

I see Pap as well (but I think I just see them in everything now!)
Also looks a lot like a JRT x Chi we met at the park the other day! Very cute.


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

I can see shih tzu and maybe a Pap there too he is very cute whatever mix he is cant really see a Bichon there though How anyone can sell a little puppy at 5 weeks heartbreaking


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

He looks very like a Yorkie/Shihtzu cross we meet on walks sometimes, a lovely little dog. When I first saw him (the one we meet) I thought Jack Russell cross.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

shanmac92 said:


> Thanks everyone, we were all thinking maybe part Chihuahua since the ears stick up so much!
> But saying that, *why would the breeder post a Gumtree advert saying they were bichon cross shihtzu-? jack russell cross chihuahuas sell for over £100 as well and they can be quite the popular little breed as full bred chi's can be £300+!*
> Just baffled me as the picture showed 3 little similar looking pups snuggled up to a bichon but there doesn't seem to be ANY bichon in him, *don't no why they would lie *really, even if they were looking a quick sale, jack/chihuahuas sell well anyway!
> 
> Milo is in a loving family and everyone loves him regardless but any visitors that come in or people on the street always ask what he is and all debate about his real breed! My aunt was thinking of maybe getting a doggy DNA test from the vets just because it's driving us all insane!!:lol:


Because they are back yard breeders, not genuine breeders. The whole exchange was shady. Your family hopefully realizes they should never buy a puppy like this again, though I know they all love Milo and are happy, people who sell animals this was are out for one thing only, and that is to make as much money as possible on the puppies. Very unscrupulous and the animals usually aren't well cared for. Imagine taking such a tiny baby away from his mother and siblings. they do that to get rid of the puppies as fast as possible. Then they can breed the mama again.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

shanmac92 said:


> Thanks everyone, we were all thinking maybe part Chihuahua since the ears stick up so much!
> But saying that, why would the breeder post a Gumtree advert saying they were bichon cross shihtzu-? jack russell cross chihuahuas sell for over £100 as well and they can be quite the popular little breed as full bred chi's can be £300+!
> Just baffled me as the picture showed 3 little similar looking pups snuggled up to a bichon but there doesn't seem to be ANY bichon in him, don't no why they would lie really, even if they were looking a quick sale, jack/chihuahuas sell well anyway!
> 
> Milo is in a loving family and everyone loves him regardless but any visitors that come in or people on the street always ask what he is and all debate about his real breed! My aunt was thinking of maybe getting a doggy DNA test from the vets just because it's driving us all insane!!:lol:


Because the sellers were puppy brokers and had a bunch of cute puppies to sell and an adult bichon in the house so sold them all as her litter.
You can buy Wisdom panel DNA tests from amazon although there is some question over the accuracy.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

shanmac92 said:


> especially to a family, two 40+ adults, and two kids 17 and 13, who made it quite clear this was their first ever pet, first dog, and they would have to learn as they went along, albeit they did have me on hand and their puppy handbooks, but thats beside the point, even the most experienced dog lover would be wary about taking on a 5 week old pup!!
> Irresponsible dog owner who clearly never bothered neutering their dogs and wanted to make a quick profit!


Alarm bells have been going on since the OP ... Thread title, really. It all screams puppy farmer to me.  Novice dog owners, admitting they don't know much about dogs or pets in general ... Sorry but I can imagine the seller/breeder rubbing his hands in glee and seeing pound signs. 

. I'd just say he's a gorgeous cross/mongrel of unknown background and leave it at that. Yes, it's a good conversation starter, but in the long run, you could drive yourself round the twist trying to guess, and come up with another breed every week. I know - I've done it. 



shanmac92 said:


> Milo is in a loving family and everyone loves him regardless but any visitors that come in or people on the street always ask what he is and all debate about his real breed! My aunt was thinking of maybe getting a doggy DNA test from the vets just because it's driving us all insane!!:lol:


Welcome to my world!  People who see Max for the first time often ask what breed he his. I just say he's an unknown cross... Cue the guesses, usually of breeds they own or have owned, in the past.

Guesses have included GSD, Collie (he was sold to us as a collie x), Springer Spaniel blink and husky - which seems to be the current favourite.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Looks like Jack cross Papillon.
Whatever he is, he is very cute!

We are still figuring out what ours is. The 'breeder' who he originally came from said Jackaranian (and charged £350!) but his previous owners vet said no he's Jack cross Chiuahua. 

Who knows? Does drive you a little mad figuring it out. Have had to come up with something though for the Microchip details!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I haven't read any of the replies but to me it looks like it has some papillon in it.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> Alarm bells have been going on since the OP ... Thread title, really. It all screams puppy farmer to me.  Novice dog owners, admitting they don't know much about dogs or pets in general ... Sorry but I can imagine the seller/breeder rubbing his hands in glee and seeing pound signs.
> 
> . I'd just say he's a gorgeous cross/mongrel of unknown background and leave it at that. Yes, it's a good conversation starter, but in the long run, you could drive yourself round the twist trying to guess, and come up with another breed every week. I know - I've done it.
> 
> ...


He has had 3 different veterinary opinions today and all have said he's a jack russell or some sort of terrier crossed with a long hair chihuahua, which is where the fluffy ears etc are coming from... just a d**k move for the breeder to not admit what the actual breed was considering they would have LOVED a jackhuahua, since they originally wanted a chi! He's very much loved regardless of his breed, just can't understand why they would lie about the true breed when jackhuahuas are pretty popular!


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

Animallover26 said:


> I haven't read any of the replies but to me it looks like it has some papillon in it.


Papillons would be a very rare breed in my area where the pup came from, considering they are an expensive breed as well it would be strange they'd cross it with such a common breed such as a jack russell or even an unknown terrier or mixed breed dog! If they were pup farmers (and so it seems) they could make way more money than £80 by saying it was a papillon instead of a shihtzu mix!
Long hair chihuahuas on the other hand are quite like papillons so maybe thats whats in it!


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I hope they come on here and ask for more advice if they do go for another dog. I know its not their fault really but they unwittingly broke every rule in the book going on gumtree and not even researching dogs properly.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

Wiz201 said:


> I hope they come on here and ask for more advice if they do go for another dog. I know its not their fault really but they unwittingly broke every rule in the book going on gumtree and not even researching dogs properly.


One dog is enough for them.
What do you mean researching dogs properly? For weeks they read handbooks on pups and dogs and how to care for them, my cousins (13 and 17) even came to my house to walk my dogs and feed them weekly just so they could get the hang of it, and they have me who is an animal fanatic, and they even bought it loads of stuff before they even decided on a pup to buy. It wasn't spontaneous 'lets just buy the first pup we seen'. She phoned me and said I see an advert for pups cross shihtzu and bichon and I said that sounded perfect for them since that is the kind of dog they wanted. They were just a little taken aback when they met the woman and she threw them this palm sized pup took the money and left, they didn't realise at the time how shady this was. I've got both my kc red mini dachshunds and long hair chi from gumtree and they were all reputable breeders so they were just going by my experience.
Everyone has to learn about dogs and their needs somehow


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

Following my advice, my aunt has tried calling the number of the lady she got the dog from, but got no answer so she text and told them what the vet said about it being a terrier/chihuahua and they are denying everything and saying its definitely a shihtzu bichon!
God knows what he actually is then!


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

lorilu said:


> Because they are back yard breeders, not genuine breeders. The whole exchange was shady. Your family hopefully realizes they should never buy a puppy like this again, though I know they all love Milo and are happy, people who sell animals this was are out for one thing only, and that is to make as much money as possible on the puppies. Very unscrupulous and the animals usually aren't well cared for. Imagine taking such a tiny baby away from his mother and siblings. they do that to get rid of the puppies as fast as possible. Then they can breed the mama again.


My aunt wasn't to know this, it seemed all very legit at the time. It's not exactly easy to determine if someone is a puppy farmer over the phone.. 
She didn't even know it was only 5 weeks. They haven't ever had a dog so they had nothing to compare its size or looks to to know that it was so young! As far as she knew that is what a 8 week old pup looked like. My aunt etc are very genuine trusting people and just took these peoples word that it was exactly as advertised. It wasn't until they got home and it couldn't even stand without wobbling or falling over that she realized it was a hell of a lot younger than she thought.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

He is a lucky pup to end up in a loving home, with people who will care for him! Wannabe breeders like this don't care who the pups go to, I feel for the rest of the litter


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

The more I read this thread the more it makes me want to cry, with comments about certain cross breeds with their mixed up names costing £x and being quite a popular breed at the moment.

The majority of these cross breeds will come from unscrupulous puppy farms and backyard breeders, a few more from people who couldn't be bothered to neuter or monitor their neutered dogs, another few from those people who know nothing about raising a puppy and just bred because the children want to see puppies born or they want to make a few quid.

Yes there are some cross breeds that are becoming recognised and have people health testing their dogs to produce excellent healthy animals but these are few and far between. 

If you want a nice cross breed go to your local rescue, they even have puppies or do your research. Mostly though if you go looking for a cross breed puppy expect to be scammed. 

I'm sorry the original poster was scammed but really there's no excuse for being ignorant with the ease of doing research these days, the television programs about dogs and the magazine programmes all of which have covered this topic. 

Pets for homes even have a warning at the side of their adverts.

Don't get my wrong I love cross breed dogs I think that mix of quirks and looks is what makes them such fun interesting pets. Heck I even like stirring it up a little on the Facebook forums for my girls two breeds and asking which of her naughty traits is typical of the breed. Its amazing how each set of enthusiasts claims the other breed is responsible. :biggrin5:

Good luck to all of us with cross breeds but don't encourage others to go buying these dogs.

Good luck OP with your adorable little puppy, glad things are now improving.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Not sure if you were referring to my post about my supposed 'Jackaranian' pup costing it's first owner £350?
This is another similar situation, as I think he is more than 2 types of dog and this Jackaranian (something I only discovered from googling what a Jack and a Pomeranian pup would look like) seems to be another one of these designer dogs, which I really don't care for.
I wouldn't change him now for the world, but he is the opposite to what I would have chosen, as I have always been a large breeds person and always saw myself with a Newfoundland or Husky!

But my boy had been passed from pillar to post and when his owner said to us, _"do you want him? I need to get rid." _
I wanted to save him, he looked so sad  
(plus we all love dogs, he instantly bonded with our 5 year old and have been waiting for things to be right in our lives to have one) 
*I am in no way condoning this random breeding*, and to be honest I will never know where mine truly came from.

But he is safe now, forever.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Muttly said:


> Not sure if you were referring to my post about my supposed 'Jackaranian' pup costing it's first owner £350?
> This is another similar situation, as I think he is more than 2 types of dog and this Jackaranian (something I only discovered from googling what a Jack and a Pomeranian pup would look like) seems to be another one of these designer dogs, which I really don't care for.
> I wouldn't change him now for the world, but he is the opposite to what I would have chosen, as I have always been a large breeds person and always saw myself with a Newfoundland or Husky!
> 
> ...


I wasn't referring to any post in particular just the way the general tone seemed to be going.

Mine if you wanted to give her the designer cross name is a wire haired snauzer. I'm not her first owner either. I love her to bits and wouldn't change her for the world as I said nothing wrong with owning a great cross but be wary when getting one.

I'm honestly not getting at anyone it just scares me that someone else will read our posts and think " they said that was a great dog I will get a puppy of that breed".


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

I should add my preferred name for my cross is my little chuckie egg  She seems to like it too :biggrin5:


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

No worries, just wanted to make sure that I hadn't been taken a bit wrongly.
But yeah I usually do this  at these names they make up for cross breeds. It basically is trying to make it into a proper name and more like a proper breed.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Picklelily said:


> I should add my preferred name for my cross is my little chuckie egg  She seems to like it too :biggrin5:


he he aww! Goldie has lots of names, but usually just "lil boy" (my husband calls him muttly):biggrin5:


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

shanmac92 said:


> One dog is enough for them.
> What do you mean researching dogs properly? For weeks they read handbooks on pups and dogs and how to care for them, my cousins (13 and 17) even came to my house to walk my dogs and feed them weekly just so they could get the hang of it, and they have me who is an animal fanatic, and they even bought it loads of stuff before they even decided on a pup to buy. It wasn't spontaneous 'lets just buy the first pup we seen'. She phoned me and said I see an advert for pups cross shihtzu and bichon and I said that sounded perfect for them since that is the kind of dog they wanted. They were just a little taken aback when they met the woman and she threw them this palm sized pup took the money and left, they didn't realise at the time how shady this was. I've got both my kc red mini dachshunds and long hair chi from gumtree and they were all reputable breeders so they were just going by my experience.
> Everyone has to learn about dogs and their needs somehow


Eaasssy, there! Wiz didn't mean any offence.

When done properly, research takes years, especially if you go for a puppy. There's a lot more to it than reading a handful of dog books and asking relatives with dogs- there's your lifestyle to look into - do you work full time/part time/self employed/work from home/unemployed, etc. How much time do you have to walk, train, play with the dog? Your own energy levels - are you a fitness fanatic, or more of a couch potato? How much time are you at home with the dog? Who's at home during the day? Is that likely to change in the very near future? What would happen if they do change? Who gets the dog? How much time is the dog going to be left alone?

All of that before you even THINK of looking at breeds themselves. Then you need to decide if you want a large/medium/small dog, how much grooming you're prepared to do, what traits you want or need from the dog - couch potato? Athletic? Lap dog? Aloof? Velcro-dog? Easily trained or more independent?

Then there's the associated costs.

Then you start looking at breeds based on those. Then there's the breeder themselves to research - have they done all.the relevant health tests, when was the last time they had a litter? How many litters in a year do they have (the more litters in a year, the more alarm bells should be going off - good breeders are more likely to have waiting lists, but not always).

With the best will and love in the world you auntie and cousins haven't put anywhere near that amount of research into this pup. My bro was the same - wanted a lab - INSISTED it HAD to be a lab and nothing else was good enough ... Got a lab with the head of a DDB - or, in other words, a.lab cross. Why? Because despite being adamant he wanted a lab, he didn't do the research and, in the end, couldn't tell the difference between a pedigree and a cross. The dog is still very much loved and my bro isn't disappointed with his dog, but jumped in with both feet...

And yes, I tried to warn him, too.

Eta. Me, on the other hand, I decided I would love a bichon. I would instantly recognise a bichon a mile away, and go weak at the knees... However, I did the responsible thing - I did my research, looked into the breed traits and breed club. I now know I won't ever own a bichon, because their needs and mine are polar opposites. They want to spend every available minute with their humans, and, as much as I love my dogs, I can't be doing with a Velcro dog that needs to be glued to my side. Nor can I realistically deal with the grooming needs. There are other things too, but I must have my rose glasses on because I can't remember what they were.  Suffice it to say, as much as I love Bichons, they're not the breed for me.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

Picklelily said:


> The more I read this thread the more it makes me want to cry, with comments about certain cross breeds with their mixed up names costing £x and being quite a popular breed at the moment.
> 
> The majority of these cross breeds will come from unscrupulous puppy farms and backyard breeders, a few more from people who couldn't be bothered to neuter or monitor their neutered dogs, another few from those people who know nothing about raising a puppy and just bred because the children want to see puppies born or they want to make a few quid.
> 
> ...


My aunt tried shelters but wanted a small house dog and there were none available, she tried 4 months in a variety of shelters but for beginners she was looking something to raise herself instead of taking on a shelter dog in case it maybe turned out to be badly behaved or something and she wouldn't know how to handle that. Even the people at the shelter recommended she got a puppy and told her they would ring her if any came in.
I'm the OP but I was posting on behalf of my aunt. I know a lot about dogs, puppy farms etc being trained in animal psychology, welfare and ethics. My aunt was not ignorant nor am I, that's very ignorant of yourself to say so. If you read my previous post she researched and bought books and went to the library and learned as much as she could before getting her first dog, same as my cousins who came to my house to learn from me about caring for dogs. She didn't know how else to get a pup (she's not exactly a technology genius, can barely turn on a laptop) other than looking in newspaper adverts and Gumtree as that is where I got all 3 of my perfect pups from, you can get lots of reputable breeders on there, it's just a shame she was scammed- it could have happened to any one of us. Regardless of how 'ignorant' you may think she is, she tried her best and when she seen that little palm sized pup she couldn't say no because it was the last of the litter to be sold and she was terrified what would happen to it if she didn't take it as the sellers claimed to be going on holiday and wanted a quick sale. 
My aunt didn't want 'a nice crossbreed'. She didn't care if it was pure bred, half bred, or a complete mix of unknown breeds, she just wanted a small house dog such as a shihtzu or chihuahua and seen an advert that looked very legit selling a cross of two small breeds. 
Of course you get quite popular cross breeds, look at cockapoos, snoodles, labradoodles, etc. They all charge big bucks for them! There is nothing wrong with wanting a cross bred dog. You can't say the majority of cross breeders are idiots or puppy farmers, unless you know all the crossbreeders and take a poll, then you can't say that. There's a lady that lives near me and she loves dogs, they are treated better than her own children and she bred cockapoos for a while.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> Eaasssy, there! Wiz didn't mean any offence.
> 
> When done properly, research takes years, especially if you go for a puppy. There's a lot more to it than reading a handful of dog books and asking relatives with dogs- there's your lifestyle to look into - do you work full time/part time/self employed/work from home/unemployed, etc. How much time do you have to walk, train, play with the dog? Your own energy levels - are you a fitness fanatic, or more of a couch potato? How much time are you at home with the dog? Who's at home during the day? Is that likely to change in the very near future? What would happen if they do change? Who gets the dog? How much time is the dog going to be left alone?
> 
> ...


They have always wanted a dog but she waited until her boys were old enough to get a dog and look after it. Of course she thought of all that stuff, I already said it wasn't spontaneous, not did they want a specific breed.. they said they liked certain breeds, they got books from the library on those breeds trying to decide what they wanted. I think your brothers story is a heck of a lot different than my aunt considering she didn't insist on any type of breed and she tried to do the best she could. No one can be a dog expert unless you are trained to do so.
They wanted a dog and every family deserves a pet. They didn't jump in and demand a dog after 1 day of deciding. For years they wanted a dog, and finally they thought they were ready. It's not my place to say 'oh auntie you need to research for 3 years before getting a dog. Even dog shelters don't do that. Dog shelters do a home check and ask you about financial aspects and your job etc and you can end up with a rescue dog inside a couple weeks. I think she did the best to her ability and I'm proud of her for trying. They all love and care for that little pup the best they can. She can't be blamed for the breeders lies and scam can she?


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

Look, if you have anything negative to say then take your opinions else where. All I wanted to know was your opinions of the breed of Milo, not on how the pup was bought or how my aunt doesn't know anything about dogs. 

Regardless of any of these things, little Milo is truly loved and my aunts family SAVED him. If they didn't take him god knows what would of happened?
A few days after they got him he had to get all sorts of blood tests and be kept in observation over night because he was so weak and young. They stuck with him, took night shifts sitting with him all night long so if anything happened someone was awake to help, including her two teenage boys. Yes they may have been inexperienced but they tried there very best for months before preparing themselves for a new pup.

Aren't there parents out there who get pregnant accidentally through either no contraception or failed contraception, knowing nothing about children but they still raise their child perfectly well? My mother was one of them and here I am with a Doctorate. Just because you're inexperienced doesn't mean you should get a dog or even have a child. You have to learn through experience. Christ you only have 9 months or less to prepare for a baby so why should my aunt have waited years to get a dog!?


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> My aunt tried shelters but wanted a small house dog and there were none available, she tried 4 months in a variety of shelters but for beginners she was looking something to raise herself instead of taking on a shelter dog in case it maybe turned out to be badly behaved or something and she wouldn't know how to handle that. Even the people at the shelter recommended she got a puppy and told her they would ring her if any came in.
> I'm the OP but I was posting on behalf of my aunt. I know a lot about dogs, puppy farms etc being trained in animal psychology, welfare and ethics. My aunt was not ignorant nor am I, that's very ignorant of yourself to say so. If you read my previous post she researched and bought books and went to the library and learned as much as she could before getting her first dog, same as my cousins who came to my house to learn from me about caring for dogs. She didn't know how else to get a pup (she's not exactly a technology genius, can barely turn on a laptop) other than looking in newspaper adverts and Gumtree as that is where I got all 3 of my perfect pups from, you can get lots of reputable breeders on there, it's just a shame she was scammed- it could have happened to any one of us. Regardless of how 'ignorant' you may think she is, she tried her best and when she seen that little palm sized pup she couldn't say no because it was the last of the litter to be sold and she was terrified what would happen to it if she didn't take it as the sellers claimed to be going on holiday and wanted a quick sale.
> My aunt didn't want 'a nice crossbreed'. She didn't care if it was pure bred, half bred, or a complete mix of unknown breeds, she just wanted a small house dog and seen an advert that looked very legit selling a cross of two small breeds.
> Of course you get quite popular cross breeds, look at cockapoos, snoodles, labradoodles, etc. They all charge big bucks for them! There is nothing wrong with wanting a cross bred dog. You can't say the majority of cross breeders are idiots or puppy farmers, unless you know all the crossbreeders and take a poll, then you can't say that. There's a lady that lives near me and she loves dogs, they are treated better than her own children and she bred cockapoos for a while.


I'm sorry Shanmac I've been trying to not reply to your last few posts because I don't want to come across as rude or you to take offence to what I'm going to say... but....

You just don't seem to be getting the point of the previous posts. You say they researched getting a pup for months... yet she bought a pup from a BYB. You say she read books and looked into the puppy they wanted to get... yet she couldn't tell the difference between a 5 week old that could barely stand as you put, and an 8 week old puppy ready to leave it's mum.

For those of us that have researched before we got a puppy... as soon as you begin reading you first post alarm bells start going off *ding ding ding* and you instantly get a feeling that this is *not* a reputable breeder.

If they had researched actually getting the puppy as apposed to just the care once they had gotten it... they would have known straight away. And if not then they would have been prepared enough to ask the right questions, do some background search on the breeder, see the puppies multiple times before buying if necessary...

If they had researched the breed specifically they would have known that this pup may not be what it's made out to be, and certainly that it's too young to leave it's mum.

I'm sorry OP for your aunt/cousins etc, but they have learnt the hard way to research the breed and _breeder_ properly before buying a puppy.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

shanmac92 said:


> My aunt tried shelters but wanted a small house dog and there were none available, she tried 4 months in a variety of shelters but for beginners she was looking something to raise herself instead of taking on a shelter dog in case it maybe turned out to be badly behaved or something and she wouldn't know how to handle that. Even the people at the shelter recommended she got a puppy and told her they would ring her if any came in.
> I'm the OP but I was posting on behalf of my aunt. *I know a lot about dogs, puppy farms etc being trained in animal psychology, welfare and ethics*. My aunt was not ignorant nor am I, that's very ignorant of yourself to say so. *If you read my previous post she researched and bought books and went to the library and learned as much as she could before getting her first dog,* same as my cousins who came to my house to learn from me about caring for dogs. She didn't know how else to get a pup (she's not exactly a technology genius, can barely turn on a laptop) other than looking in newspaper adverts and Gumtree as that is where I got all 3 of my perfect pups from, you can get lots of reputable breeders on there, it's just a shame she was scammed- it could have happened to any one of us. Regardless of how 'ignorant' you may think she is, she tried her best and when she seen that little palm sized pup she couldn't say no because it was the last of the litter to be sold and she was terrified what would happen to it if she didn't take it as the sellers claimed to be going on holiday and wanted a quick sale.
> My aunt didn't want 'a nice crossbreed'. She didn't care if it was pure bred, half bred, or a complete mix of unknown breeds, she just wanted a small house dog such as a shihtzu or chihuahua and seen an advert that looked very legit selling a cross of two small breeds.
> Of course you get quite popular cross breeds, look at cockapoos, snoodles, labradoodles, etc. They all charge big bucks for them! There is nothing wrong with wanting a cross bred dog. You can't say the majority of cross breeders are idiots or puppy farmers, unless you know all the crossbreeders and take a poll, then you can't say that. There's a lady that lives near me and she loves dogs, they are treated better than her own children and she bred cockapoos for a while.


I'm not sure what has triggered these recent posts, but I find it hard to believe that anyone who has done any research into puppy buying would then go on gumtree to buy a puppy.

Your aunt may think she's 'saved' this puppy but the reality is that she's sentenced more puppies to be born in this


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Picklelily said:


> I wasn't referring to any post in particular just the way the general tone seemed to be going.
> 
> Mine if you wanted to give her the designer cross name is a wire haired snauzer. I'm not her first owner either. I love her to bits and wouldn't change her for the world as I said nothing wrong with owning a great cross but be wary when getting one.
> 
> I'm honestly not getting at anyone it just scares me that someone else will read our posts and think " they said that was a great dog I will get a puppy of that breed".


So we must not admire any cross breeds in case someone thinks they will go out and buy one and end up getting it from a breeder you do not approve of 



LinznMilly said:


> Eaasssy, there! Wiz didn't mean any offence.
> 
> When done properly, research takes years, especially if you go for a puppy. There's a lot more to it than reading a handful of dog books and asking relatives with dogs- there's your lifestyle to look into - do you work full time/part time/self employed/work from home/unemployed, etc. How much time do you have to walk, train, play with the dog? Your own energy levels - are you a fitness fanatic, or more of a couch potato? How much time are you at home with the dog? Who's at home during the day? Is that likely to change in the very near future? What would happen if they do change? Who gets the dog? How much time is the dog going to be left alone?
> 
> ...


For heavens sake, most people want a dog, look around to see what they would want and go and buy one. It is not something you need to prepare for for years.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

IncaThePup said:


> oh you managed it!!! I'd say it possibly had Jack Russell or Papillon in just its face in one pic and ears on another
> 
> Did it change colour too?? the first pic the head looks black but the other two its brown and white!


I thought there was JRT in there, too - papillons are an unusual breed, and I think that the seller would have named them to push up the price. Your aunt and her boys have done a smashing job with him - he has been very lucky - and so have they!

He looks a happy, healthy little pup now. They've done really well.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

shanmac92 said:


> My aunt wasn't to know this, it seemed all very legit at the time. It's not exactly easy to determine if someone is a puppy farmer over the phone..
> She didn't even know it was only 5 weeks. They haven't ever had a dog so they had nothing to compare its size or looks to to know that it was so young! As far as she knew that is what a 8 week old pup looked like.* My aunt etc are very genuine trusting people and just took these peoples word that it was exactly as advertised*. It wasn't until they got home and it couldn't even stand without wobbling or falling over that she realized it was a hell of a lot younger than she thought.


It is only genuine, honest people who get ripped off. Your aunt ha done a sterling job with the puppy. SHe will know the next time (hopefully not for fifteen years or so). She's done her best and I'm sure Milo will have a wonderful home.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> I'm not sure what has triggered these recent posts, but I find it hard to believe that anyone who has done any research into puppy buying would then go on gumtree to buy a puppy.
> 
> Your aunt may think she's 'saved' this puppy but the reality is that she's sentenced more puppies to be born in this


So you would rather she didn't buy the puppy, let it return to god knows what, maybe be used as another farming dog? or be abandoned or killed?


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

Blitz said:


> So we must not admire any cross breeds in case someone thinks they will go out and buy one and end up getting it from a breeder you do not approve of
> 
> For heavens sake, most people want a dog, look around to see what they would want and go and buy one. It is not something you need to prepare for for years.


Finally someone who is making sense! Thank you kind person! You would think by the way these other posters are talking that buying a puppy that you need to have 20 years animal keeping experience and 4 university degrees in dog ownership!:lol::lol:


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> Finally someone who is making sense! Thank you kind person! You would think by the way these other posters are talking that buying a puppy that you need to have 20 years animal keeping experience and 4 university degrees in dog ownership!:lol::lol:


Well at you least you see the funny side I guess :mad2:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

shanmac92 said:


> So you would rather she didn't buy the puppy, let it return to god knows what, maybe be used as another farming dog? or be abandoned or killed?


I'd rather people didn't buy from such 'breeders' who would stop breeding because they wouldn't be able to make money out of breeding with no one buying their pups.

It's not rocket science - all the time people buy from these disgraceful breeders, they will keep breeding!


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> I'd rather people didn't buy from such 'breeders' who would stop breeding because they wouldn't be able to make money out of breeding with no one buying their pups.
> 
> It's not rocket science - all the time people buy from these disgraceful breeders, they will keep breeding!


We'd all like that rocco but its not going to happen and people will continue to be ripped off by these people. The best we can do is politely tell them where they went wrong then try and help them make the best of a bad situation so that they can do the best for their dog.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

SageFemme said:


> I'm sorry Shanmac I've been trying to not reply to your last few posts because I don't want to come across as rude or you to take offence to what I'm going to say... but....
> 
> You just don't seem to be getting the point of the previous posts. You say they researched getting a pup for months... yet she bought a pup from a BYB. You say she read books and looked into the puppy they wanted to get... yet she couldn't tell the difference between a 5 week old that could barely stand as you put, and an 8 week old puppy ready to leave it's mum.
> 
> ...


Considering the little dog was alert and lying in a little cage, not able to actually get up and thunder around like a puppy should, even the best person would find it hard to tell what the actual age was. The vet they took it to the next day said it was 8 weeks, then gave it worming medicine and its first jab. Which made the pup SICK because it was so young, they took it back the same day and a second vet said it was only 5 weeks old! Maybe I didn't make it clear in my other posts or maybe i over exaggerated but it could walk fine, it just wobbled and nearly fell over after 5/6 steps.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

shanmac92 said:


> Finally someone who is making sense! Thank you kind person! *You would think by the way these other posters are talking that buying a puppy that you need to have 20 years animal keeping experience and 4 university degrees in dog ownership*!:lol::lol:


I said it's NOT rocket science - I would think it's pretty obvious.

But bear in mind it was YOUR aunt that got caught out and ended up with a sick, underage puppy - the aunt that did all their research 
The aunt that has kept funding the puppy farmers!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

cbcdesign said:


> We'd all like that rocco but its not going to happen and people will continue to be ripped off by these people. The best we can do is politely tell them where they went wrong then try and help them make the best of a bad situation so that they can do the best for their dog.


I don't disagree with that - it's just when people claim they've done their research first


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> I'd rather people didn't buy from such 'breeders' who would stop breeding because they wouldn't be able to make money out of breeding with no one buying their pups.
> 
> It's not rocket science - all the time people buy from these disgraceful breeders, they will keep breeding!


Of course everyone would rather that happened, but that is unrealistic. If my aunt had refused to buy said pup someone else would have, or else it would have died and they would have kept on breeding anyway.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> Considering the little dog was alert and* lying in a little cage, not able to actually get up* and thunder around like a puppy should, even the best person would find it hard to tell what the actual age was.


That's my point!


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> I don't disagree with that - it's just when people claim they've done their research first


It's frustrating I know particularly when so many Pups die too.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> I don't disagree with that - it's just when people claim they've done their research first


Why are you being so rude and pretentious?

My Aunt is a respectable lady who cares very much about animals and she definitely did her research. You cant say 'oh a few months isn't long enough'. How would you know? There's not some law or rule that says you have to do___ years of research and pass an exam before getting a dog. How do you know her situation? How do you know how much she knows or doesnt know? You have no right to say she claimed to do research or that she didn't do enough research. I think my Aunt has shown great commitment to this dog, yes she may not know EVERYTHING about buying a dog but then who does? Plenty of families don't do months of research, get a dog, and live happily ever after. You have no right to say any of the c**p you're saying about my aunt.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

SageFemme said:


> That's my point!


Again, you are misinterpreting. IT WAS IN A SMALL CAGE WITH NOT ENOUGH ROOM TO WALK OR RUN ABOUT.

It was a small cage stuffed with blankets to keep it warm, You try and run through a cage of blankets and see how easy it is. It was standing up. Alert, HAPPY. TAIL WAGGING.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> Again, you are misinterpreting.* IT WAS IN A SMALL CAGE WITH NOT ENOUGH ROOM TO WALK OR RUN ABOUT*.


Again, that is my point!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I thought Papillon cross. He's dead cute!


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> Why are you being so rude and pretentious?
> 
> My Aunt is a respectable lady who cares very much about animals and she definitely did her research. You cant say 'oh a few months isn't long enough'. How would you know? There's not some law or rule that says you have to do___ years of research and pass an exam before getting a dog. How do you know her situation? How do you know how much she knows or doesnt know? You have no right to say she claimed to do research or that she didn't do enough research. I think my Aunt has shown great commitment to this dog, yes she may not know EVERYTHING about buying a dog but then who does? Plenty of families don't do months of research, get a dog, and live happily ever after. You have no right to say any of the c**p you're saying about my aunt.


Don't take it personally but so often on this forum we hear from people heartbroken because they bought a puppy from some backyard Breeder and it lived a couple of weeks and died a horrible death. Its frustrating when so many needless Deaths occur and Rocco has no doubt seen a great many more such posts than I have in the few months I have been here.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

SageFemme said:


> Again, that is my point!


What point? That they put it in a dog travel cage with blankets to keep it warm so my aunt could transport it 60+ miles home?


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> Why are you being so rude and pretentious?
> 
> My Aunt is a respectable lady who cares very much about animals and she definitely did her research. You cant say 'oh a few months isn't long enough'. How would you know? There's not some law or rule that says you have to do___ years of research and pass an exam before getting a dog. How do you know her situation? How do you know how much she knows or doesnt know? You have no right to say she claimed to do research or that she didn't do enough research. I think my Aunt has shown great commitment to this dog, yes she may not know EVERYTHING about buying a dog but then who does? Plenty of families don't do months of research, get a dog, and live happily ever after. You have no right to say any of the c**p you're saying about my aunt.


I'm sorry but I disagree it takes years of research to buy a pup properly BUT I do think any responsible owner should do a good amount of research first.

From what you've said throughout this whole thread your aunt did _not_ do enough research to buy a healthy pup from a reputable breeder. If she had have done the research she would not have bought this pup.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> What point? That they put it in a dog travel cage with blankets to keep it warm so my aunt could transport it 60+ miles home?


My point is she bought a pup without even seeing it out of a small cage.

How can you tell anything about the puppy with it locked in a cage that it doesn't have enough room to move about in?


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

cbcdesign said:


> Don't take it personally but so often on this forum we hear from people heartbroken because they bought a puppy from some backyard Breeder and it lived a couple of weeks and died a horrible death. Its frustrating when so many needless Deaths occur and Rocco has no doubt seen a great many more such posts than I have in the few months I have been here.


I'm a trained animal welfare officer and I have seen a lot of backyard breeders. I know all about the deaths, the abuse, the strain on those poor dogs bodies. Many a night I have cried myself to sleep over it, for not being able to stop every backyard breeder in the world, it's a war I will continue to fight until the day I die, but my Aunt is in no way to blame for this, she and myself thought they seemed legit. But Rocco seems to be targeting me and my family for no reason. My aunt had and still is continuing to do research into pups, before during and after getting one. She knows what she is doing as much as the next person and I really dont appreciate someone being so rude and upsetting me for no reason.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

SageFemme said:


> My point is she bought a pup without even seeing it out of a small cage.
> 
> How can you tell anything about the puppy with it locked in a cage that it doesn't have enough room to move about in?


Again, you aren't understanding. You don't know the whole story so how can you judge so quickly?

My aunt had the pup out on her lap, she poked and prodded, checked the nose , checked the teeth, the gums, checked the eyes, ears, head etc. Yes she may not have seen the pup walking or put it on the ground, but she tried her best as you can quite clearly see.

How many people can you say do this before buying a pup? most people look, pick the cutest and say yes please and off they go with their pup.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> Again, you aren't understanding. You don't know the whole story so how can you judge so quickly?
> 
> My aunt had the pup out on her lap, she poked and prodded, checked the nose , checked the teeth, the gums, checked the eyes, ears, head etc. Yes she may not have seen the pup walking or put it on the ground, but she tried her best as you can quite clearly see.
> 
> How many people can you say do this before buying a pup? most people look, pick the cutest and say yes please and off they go with their pup.


Obviously we aren't really getting anywhere here are we. One minute you say how could she see it when it was in a cage? and the next thing you say she's doing a full medical examination?

I give up with this thread :mad2: good luck to your aunt


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

shanmac92 said:


> I'm a trained animal welfare officer and I have seen a lot of backyard breeders. I know all about the deaths, the abuse, the strain on those poor dogs bodies. Many a night I have cried myself to sleep over it, for not being able to stop every backyard breeder in the world, it's a war I will continue to fight until the day I die, but my Aunt is in no way to blame for this, she and myself thought they seemed legit. But Rocco seems to be targeting me and my family for no reason. My aunt had and still is continuing to do research into pups, before during and after getting one. She knows what she is doing as much as the next person and I really dont appreciate someone being so rude and upsetting me for no reason.


You're a trained animal welfare officer and you think getting a puppy for £80 off gumtree is a perfectly responsible way to buy a puppy and was 'legit'?!?!? That doesn't give me a lot of hope for animal welfare if I'm honest 

I'm not targeting you at all. You were the one that went onto the offensive regarding comments that your aunt hadn't done her research. Well, I still cannot see how she could have and then bought the pup she did.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> I'm a trained animal welfare officer and I have seen a lot of backyard breeders. I know all about the deaths, the abuse, the strain on those poor dogs bodies. Many a night I have cried myself to sleep over it, for not being able to stop every backyard breeder in the world, it's a war I will continue to fight until the day I die, but my Aunt is in no way to blame for this, she and myself thought they seemed legit. But Rocco seems to be targeting me and my family for no reason. My aunt had and still is continuing to do research into pups, before during and after getting one. She knows what she is doing as much as the next person and I really dont appreciate someone being so rude and upsetting me for no reason.


I've kept out of this so far, but your story really doesn't stack up. You're a 'trained animal welfare officer' but you got conned into a 5 week old, sickly puppy? Really?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> I've kept out of this so far, but your story really doesn't stack up. You're a 'trained animal welfare officer' but you got conned into a 5 week old, sickly puppy? Really?


My thoughts exactly - doesn't give you much confidence in animal welfare.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

shanmac92 said:


> My Aunt is a respectable lady who cares very much about animals and she definitely did her research. You cant say 'oh a few months isn't long enough'. How would you know? There's not some law or rule that says you have to do___ years of research and pass an exam before getting a dog. How do you know her situation? How do you know how much she knows or doesnt know? You have no right to say she claimed to do research or that she didn't do enough research. I think my Aunt has shown great commitment to this dog, yes she may not know EVERYTHING about buying a dog but then who does? Plenty of families don't do months of research, get a dog, and live happily ever after. You have no right to say any of the c**p you're saying about my aunt.


I don't want to get into an argument, but your first post made it sound like she didn't really know what she was getting into. I think that's where all this has come from. I mean, they should have known that adult food was wrong for any pup.



> They haven't been dog lovers until recently and are completely new to the dog world, *basically meaning they know nothing about what a puppy should look like by age or breed.* They thought they were getting a 9 week old shih tzu cross bichon frise as shown in photos sat beside a bichon. Price was around £150 but I think they maybe only paid £80. They were handed this palm sized puppy and a can of ADULT dog food and the breeder flew off. *Now, they know nothing about puppies as I've said so they didn't see anything wrong with this.*


They've done a great thing for this little pup, good on them. :thumbup: But I do think the right research might have thrown up some clues on how to spot a BYB as opposed to a conscientious breeder - asking the right questions and looking in the right place might have steered them away from this breeder in the first place. That said, even if it was obvious that it was a BYB when they turned up it's much easier said than done to leave a pup in that state.

As I said, he's dead cute, I love his ears!


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> You're a trained animal welfare officer and you think getting a puppy for £80 off gumtree is a perfectly responsible way to buy a puppy and was 'legit'?!?!? That doesn't give me a lot of hope for animal welfare if I'm honest
> 
> I'm not targeting you at all. You were the one that went onto the offensive regarding comments that your aunt hadn't done her research. Well, I still cannot see how she could have and then bought the pup she did.


You clearly are targeting me. People on gumtree can sell their pets and be legitimate people, who wanted to get one litter of pups out of their bitch before neutering. I got my Chihuahua off gumtree for FREE because an old man took sick and couldn't care for him anymore. I still take my chi to visit him once a week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Just because a puppy doesn't come from a reputable breeder does not make the puppy undesirable. I've bred a litter from my dog and kept one pup and gave the other to my mother. I'm not a reputable breeder but I bred my dog?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

shanmac92 said:


> You clearly are targeting me. People on gumtree can sell their pets and be legitimate people, who wanted to get one litter of pups out of their bitch before neutering. I got my Chihuahua off gumtree for FREE because an old man took sick and couldn't care for him anymore. I still take my chi to visit him once a week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Just because a puppy doesn't come from a reputable breeder does not make the puppy undesirable. *I've bred a litter from my dog and kept one pup and gave the other to my mother. I'm not a reputable breeder but I bred my dog?*


I'd be careful admitting that if I were you... *hides*


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> I'm not a reputable breeder but I bred my dog?


And you work in animal welfare?


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> I don't want to get into an argument, but your first post made it sound like she didn't really know what she was getting into. I think that's where all this has come from. I mean, they should have known that adult food was wrong for any pup.
> 
> They've done a great thing for this little pup, good on them. :thumbup: But I do think the right research might have thrown up some clues on how to spot a BYB as opposed to a conscientious breeder - asking the right questions and looking in the right place might have steered them away from this breeder in the first place. That said, even if it was obvious that it was a BYB when they turned up it's much easier said than done to leave a pup in that state.
> 
> As I said, he's dead cute, I love his ears!


My aunt and her kids fell in love with Milo the moment they set eyes on him! It was the breeder who handed my aunt the can of wet adult food, she had already bought pup food before going for the little guy. I went to see him as soon as they got home and she showed me and told me what happened and I was shocked! Over the phone the 'breeders' seemed reputable. I was working and couldn't be there with her or help out more to see for myself otherwise I'd have known right away it was dodgy.
Thanks for your comment and thanks for being pleasant


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> You clearly are targeting me. People on gumtree can sell their pets and be legitimate people, who wanted to get one litter of pups out of their bitch before neutering. I got my Chihuahua off gumtree for FREE because an old man took sick and couldn't care for him anymore. I still take my chi to visit him once a week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> *Just because a puppy doesn't come from a reputable breeder does not make the puppy undesirable*. I've bred a litter from my dog and kept one pup and gave the other to my mother. I'm not a reputable breeder but I bred my dog?


My first Dog Petra was from a Back Yard Breeder, a Girl I lived with who stupidly allowed a Deerhound and a Lurcher to mate her Rough Collie. The result was a sudden and unexpected Litter of 8 puppies. We kept three and gave the rest away to good homes. 7 of them Lived for 13 years but one was sadly killed in a Road Accident which Broke my mates heart.

Petra was a wonderful Dog though. A Lurcher Rough Collie cross who could run like the Wind and whose whole bum waggled when she was happy to see me come home from work every day. She used to have a big toothy grin as well which always made me laugh.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

shanmac92 said:


> They have always wanted a dog but she waited until her boys were old enough to get a dog and look after it. Of course she thought of all that stuff, I already said it wasn't spontaneous, not did they want a specific breed.. they said they liked certain breeds, they got books from the library on those breeds trying to decide what they wanted. I think your brothers story is a heck of a lot different than my aunt considering she didn't insist on any type of breed and she tried to do the best she could. No one can be a dog expert unless you are trained to do so.
> They wanted a dog and every family deserves a pet. They didn't jump in and demand a dog after 1 day of deciding. For years they wanted a dog, and finally they thought they were ready. It's not my place to say 'oh auntie you need to research for 3 years before getting a dog. Even dog shelters don't do that. Dog shelters do a home check and ask you about financial aspects and your job etc and you can end up with a rescue dog inside a couple weeks. I think she did the best to her ability and I'm proud of her for trying. They all love and care for that little pup the best they can. She can't be blamed for the breeders lies and scam can she?


My brother's story and your aunt's are actually remarkably similar. Ok, so your auntie didn't insist on a certain breed (almost suggesting an "any dog will do" mentality) as opposed to.my brother knowing what he wanted, but not knowing enough to recognise it. They both got scammed - my bro by paying for a cross sold as pedigree and your aunt by not knowing the difference between.an 8wk old.puppy ready to leave its dam, and a 5wk old pup nowhere near old enough. I'm sorry, but I don't agree that this could happen to anyone, because in the days of the internet, and all the media attention focussing on puppy farmers these days, there's simply no excuse for being scammed. To anyone who's even conducted 5mins of research to buying a puppy, gumtree should be the very last place they'd look!

She didn't want a rescue dog because of all the behavioural problems they might have and she doesn't know how to handle it? What if Milo develops problems later in life and she HAS to manage them?

You say yourself your own dogs were from "reputable breeders" on gumtree. How exactly do you measure reputable?



shanmac92 said:


> Look, if you have anything negative to say then take your opinions else where. All I wanted to know was your opinions of the breed of Milo, not on how the pup was bought or how my aunt doesn't know anything about dogs.
> 
> Regardless of any of these things, little Milo is truly loved and my aunts family SAVED him. If they didn't take him god knows what would of happened?
> A few days after they got him he had to get all sorts of blood tests and be kept in observation over night because he was so weak and young. They stuck with him, took night shifts sitting with him all night long so if anything happened someone was awake to help, including her two teenage boys. Yes they may have been inexperienced but they tried there very best for months before preparing themselves for a new pup.
> ...


First of all, this is a public forum and anyone has the right to say their opinion, whether you like it, or not. You have no right to dictate who does and doesn't post on your thread. You might start a thread, but you do not own it. All you can do is choose to ignore certain posters (I'm guessing that will include me). You might not like what some.posters have said, but from what I've read, nobody's deliberately set out to offend

You mentioned babies. I'd personally hope anyone thinking of having a baby would look into the long term commitment and consider the implications carefully before getting.pregnant, just the same as looking into getting a dog. I would hope the majority of babies born are very much wanted, planned additions to a family and not just the consequence of a naughty look in their parents' eye. Unfortunately, too many babies are the result of just that, but one.doesn't excuse or outdo the other. That's a ridiculous comparison to make.

Nobody's saying Milo isn't gorgeous, or that your aunt doesn't love him, but fact is, if she'd spent more time looking up on certain breeds/crosses and breeders, she wouldn't have been sold an underage puppy, because she wouldn't have fallen for the scam.

So yes, to an extent, as.much as she loves Milo, she has to share some of the blame for being scammed. I've no doubt she loves him, and I wish her success with him, but if she's not sure if she could handle a rescue dog because of potential behavioural problems, I just hope Milo doesn't develop any caused by being away from his dam far too soon.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

shanmac92 said:


> You clearly are targeting me. People on gumtree can sell their pets and be legitimate people, who wanted to get one litter of pups out of their bitch before neutering. I got my Chihuahua off gumtree for FREE because an old man took sick and couldn't care for him anymore. I still take my chi to visit him once a week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Just because a puppy doesn't come from a reputable breeder does not make the puppy undesirable. *I've bred a litter from my dog and kept one pup and gave the other to my mother. I'm not a reputable breeder but I bred my dog*?


Now why doesn't that surprise me - and you're right there - you're no reputable breeder 

No wonder animal welfare is in such a state!


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

SageFemme said:


> And you work in animal welfare?


My dog is 5 generation pedigree with champion bloodlines and kc reg. She is in excellent physical condition. My dog is not a common breed in my country, it took well over a year to find a stud, I was about to get her neutered and one finally came up. I wanted another one and my mother wanted one too as she fell in love with my Suzi. We practically fought over who got to cuddle her!! Nothing wrong with what I did so take your smarmy smart ass comments else where.


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> Now why doesn't that surprise me - and you're right there - you're no reputable breeder
> 
> No wonder animal welfare is in such a state!


How dare you.

Please tell me exactly what is wrong with what I did? I have 7 mixed breed dogs from rescue shelters and ONE dog bought from a reputable breeder I traveled 200+ miles to. Why would I need to be a reputable breeder to be able to breed my OWN dog and KEEP the pups and not sell them?


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

McKenzie said:


> I've kept out of this so far, but your story really doesn't stack up. You're a 'trained animal welfare officer' but you got conned into a 5 week old, sickly puppy? Really?


My aunt did?

secondly, it was only sick because the vet gave it worming medicine and its vaccines which Milo reacted badly to.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> My dog is 5 generation pedigree with champion bloodlines and kc reg. She is in excellent physical condition. My dog is not a common breed in my country, it took well over a year to find a stud, I was about to get her neutered and one finally came up. I wanted another one and my mother wanted one too as she fell in love with my Suzi. We practically fought over who got to cuddle her!! Nothing wrong with what I did so take your smarmy smart ass comments else where.


Hit a nerve have we? :001_rolleyes:


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> My thoughts exactly - doesn't give you much confidence in animal welfare.


HELLOOOO???????????
My aunt who is a stay at home mother bought the dog, not me. I NEVER SEEN THE PUP BEFORE SHE GOT IT SO WHY AM I BEING BULLIED?


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## shanmac92 (Oct 1, 2014)

SageFemme said:


> Hit a nerve have we? :001_rolleyes:


Of course you have?

Im sat here in tears over the crap you're all saying to me? I came here for advice, some fun, I was new to this, I had a blast. I thought I was going to have somewhere fun to hang out online after a hard days work to take my mind of things, something im passionate about, people who are into the same stuff as me, but here I am bullied and targeted, ready to delete my profile and go back to being miserable at home?

Thanks a lot for making me feel so welcome.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> Of course you have?
> 
> Im sat here in tears over the crap you're all saying to me? I came here for advice, some fun, I was new to this, I had a blast. I thought I was going to have somewhere fun to hang out online after a hard days work to take my mind of things, something im passionate about, people who are into the same stuff as me, but here I am bullied and targeted, ready to delete my profile and go back to being miserable at home?
> 
> Thanks a lot for making me feel so welcome.


Ok I feel bad now, but here's the thing.

People are giving you advice and you are being rude and having a go at them.

You're changing the story throughout the posts and then getting angry when people realise.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

shanmac92 said:


> HELLOOOO???????????
> My aunt who is a stay at home mother bought the dog, not me. I NEVER SEEN THE PUP BEFORE SHE GOT IT SO WHY AM I BEING BULLIED?


You are not being bullied, so grow up.

You have made claims about having qualifications and animal welfare concern and yet you appear unaware of many animal welfare problems regarding breeding and buying pets and your ideas seem questionable for someone that works in animal welfare. It is a public forum and people are entitled to post their concerns.


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## SageFemme (Jul 30, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> HELLOOOO???????????
> My aunt who is a stay at home mother bought the dog, not me. I NEVER SEEN THE PUP BEFORE SHE GOT IT SO WHY AM I BEING BULLIED?


Nobody is bullying you, but you must see how frustrating this conversation is for us... i.e. look at the post i've quoted above... now look at this earlier post.



> Aunt is in no way to blame for this, *she and myself thought they seemed legit*


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

shanmac92 said:


> Of course you have?
> 
> Im sat here in tears over the crap you're all saying to me? I came here for advice, some fun, I was new to this, I had a blast. I thought I was going to have somewhere fun to hang out online after a hard days work to take my mind of things, something im passionate about, people who are into the same stuff as me, but here I am bullied and targeted, ready to delete my profile and go back to being miserable at home?
> 
> Thanks a lot for making me feel so welcome.


People here can be a bit blunt at times but they don't mean to be personal. I too got some stick when I first joined the forum when I said things some disagreed with but they are good people here who just care passionately about Dogs.

This is a great Forum once you get to know people a bit more too but it takes time. Even people that have been here a long time get into some fairly heated exchanges with each other from time to time. It just passion for the Dogs and the subject though so try not to take it as a personal assault on you as a person.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

shanmac92 said:


> Of course you have?
> 
> Im sat here in tears over the crap you're all saying to me? I came here for advice, some fun, I was new to this, I had a blast. I thought I was going to have somewhere fun to hang out online after a hard days work to take my mind of things, something im passionate about, people who are into the same stuff as me, but here I am bullied and targeted, ready to delete my profile and go back to being miserable at home?
> 
> Thanks a lot for making me feel so welcome.


I'm sorry you haven't liked many of the replies, but your posts have more twists than a game of pontoon/21 and people are going to pick up on that.

You've gone from talking about your aunt's underage puppy, to having a doctorate, to working in animal.welfare and finally to admitting to breeding from your own dog - AND admitting to doing so irresponsibly. How could any animal.welfare officer even admit to such a thing, never mind actually go ahead and do it? Surely, if you work in animal welfare, you're much better placed than most to know the rehoming crisis?

This place is great for chatting about dogs, and for supporting owners with every aspect of living with dogs, but if you were expecting to just complain about your aunt being scammed and saying she'd read a few books before getting a.puppy, you've had an unfortunate reality check.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

shanmac92 said:


> You clearly are targeting me. People on gumtree can sell their pets and be legitimate people, who wanted to get one litter of pups out of their bitch before neutering. I got my Chihuahua off gumtree for FREE because an old man took sick and couldn't care for him anymore. I still take my chi to visit him once a week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Just because a puppy doesn't come from a reputable breeder does not make the puppy undesirable. I've bred a litter from my dog and kept one pup and gave the other to my mother. *I'm not a reputable breeder but I bred my dog?*


So you're a _dis_reputable breeder then? 

I find it hard to believe that the relatives of an apparent animal welfare officer wouldn't come to them from the start for advice when researching getting a dog.

There's enough plot twists on this thread to keep the scriptwriters of Eastenders happy for the next few years :001_rolleyes:


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