# When to Castrate?



## mufti (Jan 16, 2010)

I was always under the impression it is a must if one is not planning on breeding (im not) to castrate. My Rottie boy is 7 month's old and LOVES other dog's even when there mean to him 

He walk's beautifully to heel and has about a 90-95% recall off leash. He has only just started to cock his leg and only does so outside for some reason lol though he is poo trained he still has a few accidents in the house with wee. Though is finally just starting to let me know when he want's to go out for a wee by standing near the front door 

As such I don't have any problems with him that castration will cure apart from a bit of bitting/jumping up seperation anxiety if I leave the front gate to put out the rubbish and come back and he is in the yard.

Along with the same sort of excited/frustrated behaviours with chewing the leash at the start of walks and sometimes during and on the way home though this is all getting better. 

Anyhow I was going to castrate until I had two dog trainers tell me that they would wait till he was older 12-18 months so he does not lose confidence around other dog's.

Thoughts please? I want to do the right thing for him, so im confused as to when and IF I should give him the snip?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't recommend it until at least a year personally especially with a large dog like a rottie. Not so much losing confidence with other dogs I think that's dogs done much earlier but I think it's better to let them mature more. You'll get a lot of conflicting replies though some people seem to think it's better to have them done almost as soon as their eyes are open


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I personally would not do it until they are physically and mentally mature. For a Rottie with a responsible owner (which you definately sound like!) i would wait until at least 18 months. 2 years better. When i had the old Lab my vet said i could easily wait until he was 3 years old.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mufti said:


> I was always under the impression it is a must if one is not planning on breeding (im not) to castrate. My Rottie boy is 7 month's old... [snip]...
> 
> Anyhow I was going to castrate until I had two dog trainers tell me that they would wait till he was older 12-18 months so he does not lose confidence around other dogs.


a SCHOLARLY paper on juvie-desex in Australia - 
Early age neutering 
*juvenile neutering is EITHER gender + before 16-MO - 
pubertal is 6-MO to 7-MO; 
post-pubertal is 8-MO to approx 12-MO*

*my personal opinion** - * 
@$!%!, this is getting really tiresome  
not long ago, NOBODY ever worried about desex at 6-MO, which was the USA-standard for pet-dogs since 1960 or 1965 - 
in Ms AND Fs. it was not seen as remarkable in any way; no fuss, very simple.

surgery-techniques + suture-materials, etc, have ** Improved! ** in that time - so whats the big deal? :confused1: 
its bizarre - At The Same TIme that the *breeders* is the USA began to get up in arms about mandatory desex laws in various cities, 
and LIMIT laws in cities and towns - all of a sudden in the early-90s, pubertal-desex (6 to 8-mos age) 
became not just QUESTIONABLE, but condemned. :crazy: yet surgery is safer than ever.

i do not believe in this criminalization /*evil wicked desex* finger-pointing.

the Denver, Colorado, Humane-Society has been doing JUVENILE desex, defined as under-16-WO, since *1974*. 
if there really were all these terrible, inevitable after-effects of EARLY (juvenile, *not pubertal*) desex, 
don;t U think that Denver would have been the Ground-Zero hotspot for this shocking discovery?

*millions of juvenile and pre-pubertal puppies in the USA have been desexed in the past 36-years, and the shelters, rescues and adopters have not reported a surge in the supposed health-problems or behavior problems that 
*breeders* claim are the lot of early/juvenile or standard/pubertal desex. *

meanwhile, i have been working with clients pets, most of them desexed (about 75%), more than one-half shelter or rescue adoptees, 
about 40% are bought from breeders; in all my years, over 25 years of dogs and puppies, i have had ONE dog come thru 
with an after-effect of desex: 
a F-dog adopted at 6-MO from a municipal shelter, desexed at 6-MO before she was released, who developed urinary incontinence 
at night at 9-MO. 
an inexpensive medication fixed the problem. 
*according to studies, at 4-MO / 16-WO the risk of urinary incontinence LEVELS * OUT, and is no higher in Fs desexed at or after 4-MO/16-WO than it is in Fs desexed as adults after 2-YO - there is no difference in risk.* 
what is eliminated by desex before 6-MO is almost-100% of risk of mammary cancer, AND 100% of risk of Pyometra - 
as well as a large reduction in the risk of urinary-tract infections, UTI, and other kidney / bladder complications.

NONE of the dogs, M or F, that i have met - who were juvie-desexed (under 4-MO), NOT pubertal-desexed - developed any of the supposed terrible problems predicted for them; 
many were desexed as young as 49-days --- 
which no, is not IMO ideal - *but shelters + rescues cannot keep the puppies for another 4-mos before adopting them out! - 
and adopters FAIL * TO * DESEX even if they sign contracts to do so. *

to address the OP - *mufti*, hun, 
Ur dog is past-puberty and well-into teenager; there is IMO + IME of more than 20-years, no reason to wait - 
and as he APPROACHES his testosterone spike at 9-MO, his behavior will be affected, and not for the better.

the infant-boy a woman brings home from the hospital is not the 12-YO who mouths-off to his teacher, 
nor is that infant the 18-YO, who is having unprotected sex with his girlfriend... 
but thats the same child, at another age + stage.

AGES ARE STAGES - and hormones and behavior are interactive.


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## Guest (May 12, 2010)

mufti said:


> I was always under the impression it is a must if one is not planning on breeding (im not) to castrate. My Rottie boy is 7 month's old and LOVES other dog's even when there mean to him
> 
> He walk's beautifully to heel and has about a 90-95% recall off leash. He has only just started to cock his leg and only does so outside for some reason lol though he is poo trained he still has a few accidents in the house with wee. Though is finally just starting to let me know when he want's to go out for a wee by standing near the front door
> 
> ...


As a dog trainer myself i always like the owners to embrace all phazes of there dogs maturing and would advise castration after 18mths if the owner desires!! and spaying after there first season.
I think ur dog sounds well rounded but should not be marking in his home at this stage so thats something that needs work.


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## mufti (Jan 16, 2010)

Leashed I bow down to your expertise and knowledge  but im just wondering if I don't have a problem and im NOT EVER going to rehome him for any reason  If unwanted behaviours don't develop in the next 2 month's is there any reason I should go for the snip at 7-9 months rather than wait till some of the other posters are recomeding @ 12-18 MO.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mufti said:


> If unwanted behaviours don't develop in the next 2 month's is there any reason I should go for the snip at 7-9 months rather than wait till some of the other posters are recomeding @ 12-18 MO.


hey, mufti! :--) 
i don;t know if i can explain this well, but i will give it a shot... 
9-mos to approx 10-mos is the peak-period of testosterone, with a ramp-down after that - 
so M-specific behaviors U see at 7 or 8-mos get *bigger - * more intense, more persistent, hair-triggered - 
i hope that makes sense, its a broad spectrum, and all of it happens simultaneously over that time;

as ONE possible example - 
if he humps women he has not met before who come to Ur house as visitors, at 8-MO... 
then at 9-MO, he may hump any man, woman or child who stands within leash-length at the park, 
and he will be much-harder to peel-off, once he has begun. Does that make sense? :huh:

trying again - 
as he grows older + gets Yet-More testosterone, any behaviors fueled by it get 
* more intense; harder to stop 
* more easily-triggered; easier to start 
* they generalize: 
they have One Specific trigger early-on, and develop multiple triggers with more age/higher testosterone.

practiced behaviors also become self-rewarding - just like SIT. 
if a dog has been rewarded as a puppy for SIT many times, then by the time the pup is 6-MO, SIT itself *feels* good - 
that behavior has become a reward, in and of itself.

the rush of excitement + arousal that goes along with M to M posturing and stare-downs can also become self-rewarding, 
in precisely the same fashion - or humping, barking reactively, anything done repeatedly that rewards the doer - 
its that old *consequences* law, *rewarded behaviors become repeated behaviors...* 
and the simple act of repeating them, magnifies the appeal + the reward of DOING that behavior - 
its a self-reinforcing spiral. [i sure hope i am explaining this well, cuz its a slippery concept.  ]

anyway... if U see something developing, that U **know!** U would greatly dislike is it was Bigger, More Duration, 
More Persistent / Hard to Stop, and Easier to Trigger -- *nip it in the bud, as soon as it begins.* 
U have to imagine it as a future full-blown, highly-persistent, easily-triggered vice, 
and *manage* carefully to prevent that behavior being practiced.

its a bit like trying to keep a plant from growing any taller, while avoiding cutting off the flowers, as U want the fruit - 
NOT easy, a real balancing act.

hoping i didn;t make a muddle of it, 
--- terry


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## mufti (Jan 16, 2010)

Thank's Terry informative and interesting as ever  Can I ask in your opinion what if any are the down sides of neutering at 7-8 month's for the male Rottie?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mufti said:


> Can I ask in your opinion what if any are the down sides of neutering at 7-8 month's for the male Rottie?


none that i can think of, hun - really. 
it avoids the ramp-up to the 9-MO spike, which is good - the long-bone epiphyses have already closed, so height 
at spine to ground is unaffected; i cannot think of any negatives.

for pups who are manic about mounting at an early-age, humping legs + hassocks + dogs of all ages or genders, 
*SPECIALLY if the pup also *fights* or *bites* or shows RG or turfy behavior - * 
i prefer to get them desexed a bit earlier, to stop practice of those anti-social thug behaviors. 
so for sexually-precocious or obsessive or testosterone-fueled aggro-behavior, earlier is better, IMO.

average-Ms with no red flags IME can be snipped anytime between 6-MO and 9-MO, to avoid the spike. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Terry we need to talk lol

I am VERY pro early neutering for our feline friends, but feel somewhat differently for dogs. 

I agree with you 100% on recovery times, ease of surgery (providing the vet is experienced... many in the uk are not), etc 

I am aware that castration whilst removing the risk of some cancers and other sex organ diseases can actually increase the risk of others. 

Unlike in cats there is a significant difference in the growth of early neutered dogs, their long bone density is different, they tend to be much taller and their growth plates close at a significantly different age (compared to felines where the difference is a matter of days and does not effect their overall size). It seems the long bone growth plates close sometime after 7m, but before 12m. There are arguments on both sides of the fence as to whether it effects orthopaedic issues such as HD...i'm still on the fence on that one. The argument for early neutering (from 7weeks -8m) seems to be flawed on the behaviour things... it works but only if conjoined with behaviour modification training, it is not a fix all.

My personal view on castration is that i would rather wait until my dog had matured. Preferably 18m-2yrs but no earlier than 12m.

Just my thoughts. I am much more experienced in the literature on early feline neutering and speying... but have read a fair bit of literature regarding pups.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I am all in favour of castration but at the right time and certainly wouldnt castrate a large breed before 18 months personally, let him fully mature first.


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## Olly's Mum (Feb 10, 2010)

We had our olly (weimaraner) done at 7 months old at our vets recommendation. We havent seen any adverse affects... Yet!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Unlike in cats there is a significant difference in the growth of early neutered dogs, their long bone density is different, *they tend to be much taller and their growth plates close at a significantly different age* [vs] felines...) It seems the long bone growth plates close sometime after 7m, but before 12m.


hey, MMB! :--) 
the best (easily read, clearly marked) medical chart i;ve found, is here - 
PROVET HEALTHCARE INFORMATION - Growth Plate Closure Times - Dogs

6-mos is approx 180-days age; there is a *proximal* (nearest) + *distal * (furthest) epiphysis, *plural epiphyses,* on each long bone, 
radius + ulna (lower fore), humerus (upper-fore), fibula + tibia (lower-rear), + femur (upper-rear).

the most-rapid rate of growth in skeletal, muscular + tissue growth is in neonates - 
the larger + older pups become, the slower they grow; initial lengthening of bone is rapid, then more-slow, then slower still. 
by the time the epiphisis is more than half-completed its task, it grows at less than 1/4th the rate it had, at the start; 
by the time its within months of calcification, it grows very slowly indeed.

i have spent a good part of my life - over 30-years since the 1970s - around dogs of both sexes who WERE early-desex - 
*defined as juvenile, or PRE-pubertal, meaning =under 12-Weeks-Old when desexed=. *

IME there has been no enormous difference between dogs of the same breeding - meaning M-littermates, 
one *juvie-*desexed + one pubertal desex (6 to 7-MO) in height; yes, there has been a difference in height, 
but it is less than an inch in dogs of 40 to 50# as adults, and only a half-inch to 1.25-inch in over-50# to 75# dogs.

by the time U get to *pubertal desex - at 6 to 7-MO* - 
there is no discernible difference to the eye, and i would not bet that any differences were not due to food, exercise, 
or simply *genetic variance...* 
_which in cross-breeds or random-bred dogs is far higher - there may be half-siblings with different sires in the same litter, and any cross-bred who sires or whelps a litter has much-more variability in their parental range of genes. _

i have yet to see the *huge differences* in height at the spine, and supposedly ridiculously-leggy M-dogs, 
due to PRE-pubertal desex - let alone pubertal or post-pubertal. 
i have seen moderate differences, but never the claimed giant vs dwarf contrast.

any M-dog desexed after 7-MO is a post-pubertal desex, BTW - depending upon the dogs adult-size, 
anything from 12-MO (20 to 30# and under) to 2-YO (over 90#) is adult-desex.

and yes - 
for APOs to experience many difficulties with intact-M dogs thru puberty into adulthood, and for those dogs to *practice* 
undesirable behaviors all that time, only to desex them as adults, is IMO ridiculous. 
nothing has been gained - the dogs are not, and never WERE, meant to be breeding stock anyway - 
and the extra management, training, oversight and hassle is IMO + IME, simply not worth the supposed trade-off. 
its like volunteering to be smeared with honey, and lie on an anthill - 
*Why?* to what end?

having adolescent-Ms snark, ark, hump, mark, escape, posture, provoke, resource guard, get turfy, and all the rest? 
*growing more fluent, faster on the draw, and more habitual with age - and MORE testosterone?* 
why bother?

i cannot see any gain - and i can see a LOT of loss, including pet-owners who simply get disgusted + quit, leaving yet-another 
un-wanted, intact-M dog PAST puppyhood in a shelter or rescue.

i reiterate - 
if U don;t intend to breed Ur M-dog OR for that matter Ur F dog: 
* anytime from 6 to 8-MO is fine for normal, average M-pups - 
aggro, sexually-precocious or turfy/RG Ms can be snipped before 6-MO

* waiting until 4-MO or after levels the risk for urinary-incontinence in Fs to equal that of 6-MO thru adult-spays 
* spay by 6-MO and PRIOR * TO first-estrus prevents 99% of mammary cancers, greatly reduces URI risks, and eliminates Pyometra as a risk

pubertal desex was the USA standard since about 1965; if there were so MANY obvious bad-outcomes, 
how is it that shelter-dogs NOW - desexed *before puberty* as juveniles - are not disastrously affected? 
if 6-mos was bad, surely 9-WO is worse? *so where are the cases?*

where is the inundating tide of orthopedic injuries in juvie-desexed M-dogs who are now running agility? playing flyball? 
i KNOW dogs who have done this - and retired in old age, and DIED without ever having these catastrophes, years ago.

i think the whole thing is a myth, based on minor increases in risk, blown-up to monstrous proportions by dog-politics. 
JMO + IME, 
--- terry


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## mufti (Jan 16, 2010)

Thank's Leashed  Seems there is no reason not to castrate my boy as no one has given a convincing argument for why I should keep him intact till he is 18 MO+ ?

P.S When I first posted this he still had a few minor teething problems with his house training. Well He has finally learnt to go outside for his wee wee we haven't even had one accident in 3-4 days and im so proud of him


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mufti said:


> ...He has finally learnt to go outside for his wee wee, we haven't even had one accident in 3-4 days and im so proud of him


_*good boy! :thumbup: the first big leap in comprehension - 
i hope he got a jack-pot for his right-place, right-time performance!

and very good human! :thumbup: :lol: we all know that monitoring carefully is the key. 
a box of virtual-chocolates and a free movie pass for on-line viewing of classic films!  
*_


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## mufti (Jan 16, 2010)

lol thank's leashed though I spoke to soon as he did a wee behind the sofa tonight  still 3-4 days not soiling the house is GREAT work for him and allows a little hicup


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Not sure about Rotties but we were told not before 15 months for Banjo (dalmatian) as can cause urinary probs but that is his breed  how ever at about 18 months he started to be a right grump with other male dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mufti said:


> ...I spoke too soon, as he did a wee behind the sofa tonight


oops!! :lol: who was spozed to be minding the puppy?  break out the rolled-newspaper, 
and apply it firmly + repeatedly to the *responsible humans* buttocks  *bad human! very naughty! *



mufti said:


> still 3-4 days not soiling the house is GREAT work for him and allows a little hicup


how old is Poopsie now? // EDITED - never mind, just went back to post #1 - actually, at 7-MO he really should have 
the concept, unless monitoring is inadequate or he is waiting too-long between potty-trips, OR he has a physical or medical problem.

:huh: do any of those sound possible? without triggers - a meal, large drink, active play, wake from sleep, excitement - 
[visitors, meet another dog, thrilling new-toy, ___ ], a 6-MO pup should handle 7 hours daytimes between potty-trips: 
_Age in Months + 1 = Max # of hours betw potty-trips *without triggers*_ 
he should be able to go for 8-hours at night without needing to void, and with no distress - because he should not have any triggers overnight [meals, etc].

maybe he has a weak bladder neck, waits too long to signal, ___ ? how often does he go out?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I must admit I feel quite undecided on this subject, partly because I switch between two camps. With my working dog hat on, I can say that 99.9% of male working dogs are entire - and have no problems whatsoever. It is not unusual when working to have to pile into the back of a landrover half a dozen or more dogs and people all squashed together. Strange male (which have often been used at stud) and female entire dogs almost sitting on top of each other and never a cross word between them. On the other hand, where I live is a very popular dog owning area and the unneutered dogs are almost always the problem ones and ones I avoid. I suspect it is probably because the working dogs are trained to a higher level and any sort of male posturing would not be acceptable. Pet owners on the other hand, rarely see the early warning signs, or simply accept that it's part of being a dog.
I used not to be in favour of neutering before maturity, but I have changed my mind now. The hormones do cause changes in behaviour that once learnt, are still there once the hormones are removed if castration is left till later.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> ...OTOH, where I live is a very popular dog owning area and *the (intact) dogs are almost always
> the problem ones and ones I avoid.*
> I suspect it is probably because the working dogs are trained to a higher level and any sort of male posturing
> would not be acceptable. *Pet owners on the other hand, rarely see the early warning signs, or simply
> ...


unfortunately, very true - on all counts.  
if pet-owners were really savvy + caught the early-signs of testes-fueled trouble, they could easily re-direct it, 
and avoid many, many problems - instead they miss the beginning, begin to complain when it gets more-serious, 
and generally act when it has become insufferable. 

and yes - its very true that once learned, male : male posturing, hard stares, leg-lifting when the dog SEES another M, 
and so forth + so on, are all learned behaviors - once learned, they are very difficult to Un-Learn. :nonod:

retired-Champions who have been bred can still have a really hard time focusing on say, an agility course 
when there are bitches nearby - even if the Fs are **not!** in estrus, he is distracted. he;s not stoopid - nor is he contrary; 
some owners do not even NOTICE the F-dogs upwind, but the neutered-Ex-Stud does, and his attn slips.


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## mufti (Jan 16, 2010)

Leashed he goes all night with no accidents so I don't think he has a bladder problem. Rather he was very excited and being naughty taking things etc while we had settled down to watch a film so I was dealing with that then after I had finished redirecting him he quickly went behind the sofa and did a wee which he seems to like to do when I move it close to my screen usually when it's a film night


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## MontyA (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm glad I started reading this thread. My GR will be 6 months old in a few weeks. The vet had advised anytime after 6 months to have him castrated. Then I went to puppy socialisation classes and was told that if I had it done before he had fully matured he would be 'stuck' in the puppy phase and his puppy behaviours, such as excessive chewing would take longer for him to get through. I'd made the decision to leave it a lot longer, but I'm reconsidering it at 6/7 months again now!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I left Oscar until i felt he had matured, it is recommended with Cockers partly because of their coat type. He was fine up until i had him done and having had him done he still seems fine, seems a bit less aggro with other dogs but this wasn't really an issue before so not sure if thats a maturity or castration thing. 

Glad i waited but also glad i had it done when i did, got it out the way and no accidentals


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I always believed early castration was best. When I got my Bullmastiff pup we had him castrated at 6 months. He grew FAR taller than any BM I've ever seen (and I used to breed and show them) and he had very little muscle tone. Since then I would think twice. Also, I read this: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

My boy was castrated at 3 I'm glad I waited 'til he was physically and mentally mature, I've known others with the same breed early nueter, and have probs with lack of musclature, poor coats etc.

I was lucky Benny wasn't showing any probs with posturing etc before neutering. I can say in all honestly, he's the same big soft loving boy he was before be went from being Benny Big Baws to Benny Nae Baws LOL


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> Not sure about Rotties but we were told not before 15 months for Banjo (dalmatian) as can cause urinary probs but that is his breed  how ever at about 18 months he started to be a right grump with other male dogs.


Is this incase they grow to be stone producers? I knew I had read to wait till they were bigger with Dals but only know bits of why. I have Buster's six month check in july and I know he will ask what I have decided as he asked me about what I was thinking for him at his second jags.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

dalpup said:


> Is this incase they grow to be stone producers? I knew I had read to wait till they were bigger with Dals but only know bits of why. I have Buster's six month check in july and I know he will ask what I have decided as he asked me about what I was thinking for him at his second jags.


 Yes  I would wait till he's atleast 15 months Banjo was 3ish he isnt a stone former thank god enough probs already  but do wish we had done the deed at 15months he might not have got into the grump stage but that could be related to other health problems


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mufti said:


> ...he quickly went behind the sofa and did a wee which he seems to like to do -
> when I move (my sofa) close to my screen, usually when it's a film night


could be excitement / weak bladder sphincter as a combo - he gets playful, U try to bottle it up;

but even MORE this sounds like somebody - him, a long-dead past-tenants dog or cat, SomeBody - 
had a habitual marking-spot behind the sofa, and he takes the opp to refresh it, when the sofa is moved away from the wall. 
 i;d leash him the next time film-night is beginning, and tether him to the FRONT of the sofa - 
so U can watch the little stinker - and a pre-movie pee-trip might be a good idea, too.

for a long-term solution, use a blacklight / UV light to find the offending bio-waste - 
U have to turn off the room lights + do that after dark.

then TREAT every single area that fluouresces, even faintly, with an enzyme-based pet-waste cleaner - 
Natures-Miracle, Poo-Be-Gone, or similar - and PARK the sofa over it so he cannot get there.

do U have kitties? if so, i would suspect the cat is marking - or ferret, bunny, ___ - 
they can get into very small spaces. cardboard boxes under the sofa will block access by small pets.

fingers crossed, its an old pet-marking that he over-marks, 
but it may simply be a target of opportunity.  
--- terry


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> Yes  I would wait till he's atleast 15 months Banjo was 3ish he isnt a stone former thank god enough probs already  but do wish we had done the deed at 15months he might not have got into the grump stage but that could be related to other health problems


Oh yes have seen he has hip probs poor lad  will speak to the vet then and say this, I think its a humping problem we are going to have, he already "loves" his cushion just a little too much, that was an interesting convo with my boys


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

dalpup said:


> Oh yes have seen he has hip probs poor lad  will speak to the vet then and say this, I think its a humping problem we are going to have, he already "loves" his cushion just a little too much, that was an interesting convo with my boys


  we did'nt have that problem with Banjo, Holly trys to with Banjo though  but she is a weirdo I think its a dominance thing with these to she wants to be boss & he could'nt give a dam


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

:lol: aww bless her!! I was really quite surprised that Buster is doing this, after all he is just tiny bless him and this is pre hormones too which is a bit scary!!


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Hopefully he will grow out of it


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dalpup said:


> ...I was really quite surprised that Buster is doing this, after all he is just tiny bless him and this is pre hormones too which is a bit scary!!


presuming here, but... is Buster humping? :huh: 
if so, it is NOT pre-hormones; testosterone starts to rise at approx 12-WO and humping can begin then. 
the initial spike that stops epiphyseal elongation + begins calcifying the ends of leg long-bones is approx 5-MO, 
and full-blown puberty is 6-MO with testosterone continuing to climb into the 9th month, or possibly THRU the 9th-month 
and into the 10th; then it begins to drop.

pups are androgenized for the 1st time in the womb; the androgen bath is secreted into the uterine fluid, 
and permanently alters brain structure at that time; Fs between 2 M-sibs are also affected by this exposure.

(for all those macho-men who fear for their DOG - there is no similar process for Fs, 
and single-M-pups in a litter of Fs are utterly unchanged - they do not grow-up to become hairdressers, 
interior-decorators, or off-Broadway actors... sheesh.  )

pups do not GROW * OUT * OF testosterone-driven displays - they grow into them, 
and if they are not promptly + consistently redirected, they Grow With The Pup into adulthood.  
if U do not want it - i would stop the behavior, NOW - before its habit, before its automatic + entrenched.

happy B-Mod, 
--- terry


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Interesting Terry thanks


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

yes he is humping, thats all very interesting stuff there thank you for the info, interesting to see there are spikes of puberty. It has decreased a little but he still has his "moments" usually when he is over excited like when people are in for example, we are trying to direct his attention and stopping him, obviously we dont want it to become habit but also we have two boys, one is nine, the other is seven so just at that age where this sort of thing is HILARIOUS  so for my own sanity it needs to stop.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dalpup said:


> ...he still has his "moments" usually when he is over-excited like when people (visit)...
> we are trying to direct his attention and stopping him, obviously we dont want it to become habit but also we have two boys,
> one 9-YO, the other 7-YO... at that age where this sort of thing is HILARIOUS  so for my own sanity it needs to stop.


oh, dear. :huh: i do not envy U, hun - not in the least.  yes, the boys WOULD think this is a terrific sideshow, 
heck if they could, they would charge admission to their classmates + the neighbors! :eek6: another allowance... $$

since U know that visitors get him over-excited + he mounts to ground the excitement, i would leash him BEFORE 
they get to the house, just let it drag - then tether him away from the door (the drag is to lead him with, vs his collar). 
Tethered to Success 
the tether only needs to be 18-inches betw the spring-clips at each end, and can be clipped to an eye-bolt 
simply screwed into the baseboard, at least 8-ft and preferably 10-ft from the door, out of the traffic path.

a mat to lie on, and a chew-toy or stuffed, frozen Kong with a half-meal in it, will keep him contented - once he relaxes 
and chills out, he can be un-tethered ON-leash - watch for any attempts to JUMP * UP before he starts clasping.

DAP pump-spray and / or Rescue-Remedy *liquid* can both help - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much... 
*NEVER give the Rescue-Remedy* *candies*/*pastilles to dogs!! they contain Xylitol, which can cause 
kidney failure + death - the liquid is dog-safe. *

good luck with all 3 boys,  better U than me...  
--- terry


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

haha!! yes boys are a joy  I keep joking that I wish we had a female dog to even the score in the house instead of it being 4-1 with boys stuff being top. I count my blessings that at least the dog is house trained and knows where he is to pee, lets not talk about the other three males  

will certainly try those things, and keep up our distractions as I think we are slowly getting it through to him that we dont do floor shows in this house  he has picked up his training so quickly I cant see it taking us too long


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I would always have a dog castrated, but at the right time not too early and not too late, i say this as ive made the mistake twice once too early, ok it didnt cause major problems but certainly caused problems and problems that could have been major by leaving one of mine, my eldest now till he was older, i know some people say being intact doesnt cause health problems and ime sure in lots of dogs it doesnt but in harvey it certainly did.


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## mufti (Jan 16, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> could be excitement / weak bladder sphincter as a combo - he gets playful, U try to bottle it up;
> 
> but even MORE this sounds like somebody - him, a long-dead past-tenants dog or cat, SomeBody -
> had a habitual marking-spot behind the sofa, and he takes the opp to refresh it, when the sofa is moved away from the wall.
> ...


No other pet's Terri my last dog a male dobe who died last year  was house trained so the last time he wee'd in the house was probably 10+ years ago lol

He also like's to take out his blanket and wee in his basket  these are the only two spots that he will ever wee on now and then only every few days or so.

I LOVE the idea of the tether though as he can be a bit of an attention seeker when we are all trying to watch TV in the living room. So that sound's like a better idea than a time out in the hall for persistent naughtiness or just locking him out in the hall behind a baby gate till the movie is done.

Do they sell dog specific ones? im in the U.K and iv'e never seen one in any pet shop?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mufti said:


> No other pet's Terri my last dog a male dobe who died last year  was house trained so the last time he wee'd in the house was probably 10+ years ago lol


hey, mufti! :--) 
doesn;t matter if its 20-YO... could be a prior tenant, no matter! 
if the dog can smell it, they will often over-mark it. 


mufti said:


> I LOVE the idea of the tether... he can be a bit of an attn-seeker when we are all trying to watch TV...
> Do they sell dog specific ones? im in the U.K and iv'e never seen one in any pet shop?


big-box hardware supplies here will *custom-make one* to the length U want - 
a Home-Depot, etc, kinda place?

these folks sell them - BUT - all sizes from 5-ft to 3-ft are the same price. 
Chew-Proof Indoor Tether - Dog Training Supply

how about a bike-cable, the shortest one U can find? :huh: U will need small carabiners or some other links 
to attach the spring-clips to the empty loops - where the PADLOCK woould normally go. 
U only need 18-inches, so a custom one of vinyl-dipped steel-cable from a big-box store might be cheaper; 
they cut them + clamp them, so **swivels** would go in the end-loops before they closed them with clamps, 
and the spring-clips would go in the swivels, so the cable does not kink or twist.

heres another source - 


> Pet Tethers -
> 
> ...Pet Tethers and Teenie Tethers are lightweight, flexible and have a nearly endless range of uses in a dog trainer's toolkit. These chew-proof Pet Tethers can show your clients how to use Pet Tethers to:
> 
> ...


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## mum2three (Jan 5, 2010)

Wow, didn't know this subject was such a minefield. We have every intention of getting our GSP neutered but not sure when is best. The vet was happy to do it a month ago (not surprised after hearing the cost). He had a short spell of humping toys and occasionally trying a leg a couple of months ago but that stopped. I'd heard that GSP's usually mature quite late and that it was best to let them get some maturity before castrating but I'm a bit confused now. 
He's not shown any signs of agression at all even when faced with agressive dogs also he still squats to pee and never lifts his leg. He's not let of lead at the moment because of bad recall but I do worry about bitches in season when he does eventually get off leash.


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## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

mum2three said:


> Wow, didn't know this subject was such a minefield. We have every intention of getting our GSP neutered but not sure when is best. The vet was happy to do it a month ago (not surprised after hearing the cost). He had a short spell of humping toys and occasionally trying a leg a couple of months ago but that stopped. I'd heard that GSP's usually mature quite late and that it was best to let them get some maturity before castrating but I'm a bit confused now.
> He's not shown any signs of agression at all even when faced with agressive dogs also he still squats to pee and never lifts his leg. He's not let of lead at the moment because of bad recall but I do worry about bitches in season when he does eventually get off leash.


Sometimes I think vets are only in the game for personal gain.

Both of my adult dogs who live with my parents in China are intact. The reason we never neutered them was because there is no such thing as a qualified vet in China. Only self professed vets (quacks with needles and surgical knives.) So we didn't want to risk letting them cut open our dogs. We had one GR and one lab. Neither have ever shown signs of aggression towards other dogs. Once the GR got in a fight with a particularly disagreeable Husky who lives down the road and bullies all the local dogs. Our GR came out on top and no one has had any trouble with the Husky since. Obviously our GR is not aggressive but did feel the need to defend himself when the Husky started a throwdown. 

Unfortunately our lab wasn't very well trained (no recall but my mother insisted on walking him off leash :frown We lost him over a year ago when he went chasing after a bitch in season. We think one of the locals stole him and sold him on the dog market as a stud.

The point is, if you have a well trained dog and you KNOW he's not aggressive, there's no sense in neutering him too early. And sometimes aggression has nothing to do with being intact. I know neutered dogs who just have problems.

The problem of chasing bitches in season... well I don't know what the solutions are to that. Maybe someone with better experience can comment. I suppose it's partially the owner of the bitch's responsibility to keep her on leash while she's in season? I saw a picture a few months ago of a husky wearing boxers. Thought that was genius! Although the husky probably was not very impressed.


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

They aren't qualified now thats scary!!! 

Would LOVE to see a piccy of that doggy in boxers, you can imagine how unimpressed they would be with that, and imagine trying to get the dog into them in the first place. :lol::lol:


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## mufti (Jan 16, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, mufti! :--)
> doesn;t matter if its 20-YO... could be a prior tenant, no matter!
> if the dog can smell it, they will often over-mark it.
> 
> ...


Thank's again Terri im going to order one of the tethers from the states in the link you posted :thumbup:

I got some dog odour/marking cleaner today as well so im going to scrub hard on all the problem areas like the back of the sofa and his basket.

P.S Here is a photo of the wee man (pun intended)


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

he is stunning mufti what a gorgeous face he has!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

He's stunning :001_wub:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mufti said:


> I got some dog odour/marking cleaner today as well so im going to scrub hard on all the problem areas like the back of the sofa and his basket.


no need to scrub, hun - :thumbup: 
read the directions, as they vary by maker - some say let stand for X time, then rinse; some say let stand for 2X time, blot + vacuum - they vary. the enzymes do the work by eating the bacteria that cause the odor - they need time to do the job. 

just be sure to get into CREVICES where odor can hide - joints in hardwood floor, the weave of the basket (which should be upside-down on the washer or summat, to keep the dog out of it - =just lay his blankie on the floor in the usual spot, he should not be bothered much=). 
if the floor has stains, get the carpet, too - it may be in the padding, if its wall to wall, but short of pulling it up, treating it by opening the fibers then spraying lightly, is about all U can do.

he;s a handsome fella! 
--- terry


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

mufti said:


> Thank's again Terri im going to order one of the tethers from the states in the link you posted :thumbup:
> 
> I got some dog odour/marking cleaner today as well so im going to scrub hard on all the problem areas like the back of the sofa and his basket.
> 
> P.S Here is a photo of the wee man (pun intended)


He's gorgeous :001_wub: white vinegar with water is good for getting rid of accident smells to :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Dally Banjo said:


> ...white vinegar with water is good for getting rid of accident smells toO :thumbup:


has any animal re-marked on the vinegar-treated spot, dally? 
how do U apply it - full-strength, 50/50, 1 Tbsp vinegar to 1 cup H2O?

i skip mixing + wondering; i use commercial enzyme cleaners; they work, so long as *U follow directions - 
my BIL cannot get odors out, my sis can.  * the age-old manly attitude: _*directions?! :lol: 
we don;t need no stinkin directions... :lol: *_ and 3-days later, the creeping fog is back. :thumbdown:

there are loads to choose from; good enzymatic cleaners include Nature's Miracle, Complete Pet Stain and Odor 
Remover by 8in1, Simple Solution, *Capture* Pet Stain and Odor Neutralizer, Poo-Be-Gone... 
good dog-urine cleaners will break-down stains + odor-causing molecules - not just mask odors; cheaper sprays 
use perfume to cover the smell; dogs can smell THRU that, tho we may not.

enzyme-cleaners continue to work til the odor is gone, *but while they are damp/working, 
the pet CANNOT be allowed access to that area -* an overturned chair, an ex-pen framing the area, 
a closed baby-gate or door - something has to keep the pet OFF / Away From the area.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

We just use it when he has an accident the trouble we have is he dosent know he is doing it  so its not a marking problem here. Holly used to go sniffing round any area he had leaked on but doesent with the vinegar :thumbup: he only has leaks mind so may not work as well on a full flood pee 

Use to use non bio-washing powder to clean up after a cat we had that used to mark  he never went back to the same spot & did'nt do it again after haveing the snip but thats cats


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Dally Banjo said:


> Use to use non bio-washing powder to clean up after a cat we had that used to mark  he never went back to the same spot & did'nt do it again after... the snip but thats cats


hey, dally! :--) 
is he incontinent with age? theres a med that may help - i THINK its propanolamine?? the vet would know.

tom-cats are virtually impossible to keep w/o marking :huh: and neutering late, especially if they lived outdoors, 
may not eliminate marking entirely. its good Urs stopped :thumbup:


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

He's not 5 yet  got HD & wrecked his back cos of it, the vet put him on the Propalin which was helping but not anymore at vets tomorrow for hydro & so another meeting with them  he started acupuncture which helped well stoped the leaking through the day but has been wetting his bed again over the last week & very stiff in his leg, pins vet thinks traped nerve & wants him to see specialist before it gets worse.

& yes I know what you mean about cats & neutering late  Louie is off for it soon not takeing a chance with him  but got to wait till he's 9 month but should be ok MC's dont usually start spraying till there at least a year old but if he does his paws wont touch the ground :lol: they are all house cats anyway so dont need to worry about him setting off looking for a lady


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Dally Banjo said:


> ...I know what you mean about cats & neutering late  Louie is off for it soon not taking a chance with him  but got to wait till he's 9 month but should be ok MC's dont usually start spraying till there at least a year old but if he does his paws wont touch the ground :lol: they are all house cats anyway so dont need to worry about him setting off looking for a lady


i;m a coward, i got my boy-cats snipped by 6-MO - and all were indoors.  none ever sprayed, thank heaven -

my neighbor (i babysat for her daughter) had an intact tom - she let him sleep in their garage, he went in + out at will, 
but was not allowed in the house - for obvious reasons. 
he sprayed the UNSEALED cinder-block wall - regularly - YECCHHH. brand-new house, built to their design - what a waste. 
the odor on a summer-day should have been visible, OMG - an eye-watering reek. 
and of course, the car upholstery picked up a whiff, too  pfui.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Phew nice :crazy: cat pee powed car


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## mufti (Jan 16, 2010)

Thank's for all the nice comments about Baxter Guy's  He is big even for a Rottie the vet weighed him at 45kg at just under 8 month's  All muscle though I might add


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

:scared: 45kg hope he dosent insist on sitting on your lap at the vets


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## corrine3 (Feb 22, 2009)

we're having the same dilema, wanted Glen done tomorrow but we have plans on sat so didnt want to leave him. He'll be 10months on Monday, plan on getting it done asap now as we have an entire bitch too so dont want any accidents and i figured there cant be much difference in neutering at 10months compared to 1year.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

corrine3 said:


> we're having the same dilema, wanted Glen done tomorrow but we have plans on sat so didnt want to leave him. He'll be 10months on Monday, plan on getting it done asap now as we have an entire bitch too so dont want any accidents and i figured there cant be much difference in neutering at 10months compared to 1year.


 He will still be able to do the business for a couple of months after mind  thats why we got Holly done before Banjo did'nt want an outbreak of spots


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## corrine3 (Feb 22, 2009)

Oh will need to remember that then! It was all a bit rushed getting Milly so didnt have time to get Glen done but we'd always intended on getting him done in the summer when he's around one.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

U can figure on a solid month where he is still fertile - but it cannot hurt to assume it for EIGHT-weeks.  
safe beats sorry, any day of the week! :thumbup:


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## corrine3 (Feb 22, 2009)

Our vet does it at 6months and i need to get it done before OH has a change of heart, he's another one of these men that has a bit of a problem with it


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

corrine3 said:


> Oh will need to remember that then! It was all a bit rushed getting Milly so didnt have time to get Glen done but we'd always intended on getting him done in the summer when he's around one.


Thats what happend to us Holly was a surprise as we had only just started looking into getting a rescue dog :lol: she was 8months & vet said she was ok to spay but then we discoverd she would have been better to have a season 1st  but she seems fine  well in that department anyway  Banjo was due for the snip anyway but we dont have a very big house so keeping them seperate would have been :crazy:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

corrine3 said:


> ...i need to get it done before OH has a change of heart, he's another one of these men that has a bit of a problem with it


they;re universal, hun.  funny how they don;t get upset by a spay, innit?


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I agree with Terry completely . All my mum's GSD's and our Golden Retriever were neutered between 6 and 8 months old. They were very obedient and grew to average heights and had no issues with muscle - or any issues at all really. Our newfoundland Bronson was neutered at around 18 months - we wanted him to recover from his cruciate operations first. Up until about 12/14 months he was the best behaved dog and then he started becoming increasingly dominant towards our other dogs. After he was neutered this calmed down amazingly - but theres still that little bit there if you let him away with it, something which we don't think would be there if he had been neutered younger. We also have tow unneutered males, both verging on 2 - unneutered because we show them, an Alaskan Malamute and a Newfoundland. Hudson was fantastic with all dogs until a few months ago when he becamse increasingly dominant towards them. He now will not tolerate 'rude' dogs if they are unneutered and will not back down from confrontation - not a huge issue for us as he is very well controlled. It's fair to say this is more a 'malamute' thing but all the neutered puppies from Hudson's litter stayed the same as he was, only him and his other two show brothers have this dominant streak. I wish i could turn back the clock and neuter him and just screw the show ring. Barney, our newfoundland, has an issue with some unneutered dogs and is completely obsessed with girls to the point where we keep him on the lead because he will run off and chase them (even neutered males!) and he has caught the scent of a few bitches in season before and done a runner - this is a dog who was fantastic off lead until he hit 16 months. I personally think if you neuter too late, the undesirable traits that can come along with a whole dog won't necessarily go with his balls. Whereas if you neuter younger they never learn those traits. Of course there is exceptions in both cases, but i think the majority of the time its best to neuter sooner rather than later. It's down to your own personal opinion though - good luck with whatever you choose to do  xx


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> It's fair to say this is more a 'malamute' thing but all the neutered puppies from Hudson's litter stayed the same as he was, only him and his other two show brothers have this dominant streak. I wish i could turn back the clock and neuter him and just screw the show ring. Barney, our newfoundland, has an issue with some unneutered dogs and is completely obsessed with girls to the point where we keep him on the lead because he will run off and chase them (even neutered males!) and he has caught the scent of a few bitches in season before and done a runner - this is a dog who was fantastic off lead until he hit 16 months. I personally think if you neuter too late, the undesirable traits that can come along with a whole dog won't necessarily go with his balls. Whereas if you neuter younger they never learn those traits.


i;ve had a couple of hobby-show folks say that, actually - that they wish in retrospect they had skipped the ring, 
and snipped the dog.  but management can be a life-saver, so long as ALL the family are willing to manage the dog.

these were folks with no interest in breeding - they just enjoyed showing, and here in the USA, only intact Ms + Fs 
are in the conformation ring, which i do think is short-sighted - so far as i know, 
even the UKC (which opened their activities to mixed-breeds years ago) still requires intact dogs in conformation.

i think ARBA is the same, but i am not familiar with Rarities (another rare-breed registry).


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

Just out of interest, as I dont know much about show stuff, mum showed our dog but I was to young to know the ins and outs. Why do they ask the dog to be intact? Is it purely cosmetic reasons?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dalpup said:


> Why do they ask the dog to be intact? Is it purely cosmetic reasons?


hey, pup!  
cuz conformation is spozed to choose good potential sires + dams... 
but as *merlinsMum pointed out, the dog as it is would STILL be a valid proof of their own parentage, 
even after they are desexed - the breeding outcome is still there, clearly visible, 
whether the dog is a potential breeder or not.


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## dalpup (Mar 9, 2010)

Ah, I see. thank you for the explaination


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## corrine3 (Feb 22, 2009)

Well Glen is booked in for June 29th  he'll be almost exactly 11months.


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## theevos5 (Dec 24, 2009)

Good on you,Alfie was neutered yesterday,he was very groggy last night and been fine today,although abit bruised.Well done for making the decision:thumbup:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Why do they ask the dog to be intact? Is it purely cosmetic reasons?


Also, the breed standard says.... two descended testes and judging is against the breed standard. This is mainly because it would eliminate the possibility of a dog being cryptorchid or monocryptorchid (considered a hereditary problem), however, it is still possible to show a neutered dog I believe.


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