# Am i doing anything wrong?



## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

I just want to know if im doingeverything right , i havent kept fish bymyself, my mum used to do it all when i was little..
I have 3 small goldfish , 1 from a friend who was going to flush him down the toilet if i didnt take him, i bought him 2 friends and some toys.

The tank seems cloudy?
I only feed them twice a day and they eat it all.
I have a filter in there, which seems to be working.

They seem to go to the top of the tank alot nd stick ther mouths out.
Why
Are they hungry, too hot or not getting enough oxeygen, i oxeygenate the tank for about 5 mins daily , plus they have that oxeygen plant.
The tank is curretnly 24'c.

I dont know what the tank is called , but it has an orange lid and has orange 'feet' it is quite big
Any advice or infomation is helpfull ty

X


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I was told that if goldfish go to the top it means they need oxygen..

How big is the tank?


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## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

i have no idea.

this is the tank thooo i think
Cool 21Ltr Blue Goldfish Aquarium Kit by Elite-Fun and kids Fish Tanks-Pets at Home: Buy Pet Supplies from our Online UK Pet Shop

its deffo this one in orange

x


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Hmm.. Goldfish are quite dirty fish so I'm not sure if that is big enough for 3 of them.. Have a search in some of the other threads in the fish section, I'm sure someone was asking about goldfish a while ago 

xx


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## nickylowe40 (Apr 13, 2009)

ok, firstly, you only need to feed fish, every other day. I know the packets say every day, but a lot of what you feed them goes to the bottom which they will eat later.

also, not sure of which filter system you have, but under gravel are the best.

How often do you change their water.

Do you know, you mush leave about a 3rd of the orginal water in, and you must add water conditioners to the new water before adding it to the tank?

I also agree they may need more oxygen. If you use an undergravel filter you can add air blocks to the pump, which will help.

Hope this helps xx


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Ok, the bad news is that your tank is far too small for your fish. Conincidentally, your tank is the exact same tank that my brother used to keep his goldfish in (now they are my goldfish and they have a 4 foot tank ).

Do you know what type of goldfish they are? If they are one of the fancy varieties (like fantails) they need 40 litres of water each(!), and if they are normal bodied (commons, comets or shubunkins) they need at least 80 litres of water each.

Even though your goldfish are still small, they should grow pretty big, and as Poisongirl said they are very messy fish that produce alot of waste which means their water will get dirty very quickly in such a small tank.

Under normal circumstances (ie if they were in a big enough tank with a good filter) then feeding them twice a day would be fine - I feed mine twice a day  For the moment though, I would stop feeding yours completely for a few days, as food = waste and it'll just make your water quality bad (they can go for a long time without food and it won't hurt them).

Next you need to get a water test kit (a liquid drop test like the API master kit, not one of the paper strip tests) or get your lfs to test your water for you. If you can post the results we can see if there is a problem with your water quality, which to be honest, I think there will be, just because of the amount of fish you have in such a small tank.

Lastly, please don't feel bad! Practically everyone who has ever kept goldfish has made the exact same mistakes as you - the blame lies with the damn shops who tell you that tiny tanks are ok for goldfish! 
Also, sorry for the monster-sized post!


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## Staceybob (Jun 13, 2009)

Yeah, I probably wouldn't keep three small goldfish in a tank that size, though to be fair I've done the same thing years ago. I used to have a child size tank and I had a match (Which apparently I have learnt now, that you shouldn't have) of shubunkin, goldfish and fantails (Though luckily they never bullied my fantails).

I've ended up in a pretty similar mess with my tank being too small as Pets at home and Brykley Gardens both told me that a 100 litre tank was perfect for my 6 fishes. In fact, my original plan was to go back to Brykley Gardens a week later to get 2 slightly larger fish, but now I know I would have been totally over crowded.

Pets at home will test your water for free as thats what I've been doing. The API Master test kit is pretty pricey at about £28.00 but you can buy it off ebay with P+P included for £17.

Perhaps a 1/3 water change?

Stacey xxx

EDIT: I just thought I'd mention, don't feel cruel or anything. I certainly don't feel cruel about my goldfish, but thats mainly for the fact that I've seen people keeping fish in a blender. Im sure my fish are happier in their tank, even if it is a bit too small for them.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey can you go on your local freecycle and see if someone has a tank they don't need? 

Someone agreed about goldfish being messy in a small tank.. It doesn't matter what size of tank you have, goldfish are the messiest fish I know! Lol
My dad has 5 goldfish in a 4foot tank (its 3ft high by 2 foot) and its practically green a week after cleaning it! it's not even in direct sun (direct sunlight encourages algae to grow)
I bought my dad some cold water plecs and they don;t do much.

Oh that reminds me, I might be getting that tank  My dads gf hates looking after fish, she is happy with the dogs cats bunnies and budgie so she says I can have the tank. It has a huge filter but I am going to add an external filter too.

x


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## Staceybob (Jun 13, 2009)

My gravel cleaner works well and takes out some of the water, so I use it to clean the gravel and do a water change =3. You can get one for about £5.00 from pets at home (Just put your thumb over the hose when you've taken enough water out, but I think your tank might be too small to get the vaccum action to work with it).
I also find my magnetic glass cleaner is handy. You can get a small one for about £4.00 but that may not be necessary for your tank.

Stacey xxx


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## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

Firstly thanks for all the replys!!

Argh i feel so bad keeping them in there, but they seem so happy!

i have tamed them aswell. They all swim through my hand ^^

I didnt know you HAD to add the stuff to the water, mymum has kept fish for years and she never did, her oldest fish lived to 25, he was a goldfish. [email protected] said you dont need to add it.

they do eat all the food though, and wait for ther food in the mornings, jack waits and waits for his, its so cute!! 

also, you say they grow big but brian is 8 years old and is what 
about as long as this sentance...

the others smaller.

i have noo idea what breed they are, but i have discovered 3 snails in ther 

So how many liters does my tank need, no way can i afford a huge tank so it will have to be of freecycle, i dont understand why its ot suitible,

aslong as its not like a bucket full of fish then its alright, same as snails.i have 5 snails in a 2 1/2 ft x 1 1/2 ft x 1 1/2 ft tank

so a 4 ft tank must be huuuuuuuuuuuge.

i change th water daily, they like it. i dont noo what im looking for soo help!!


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Don't panic!  

Ok, I'll explain a little why goldfish need such big tanks, hopefully that'll make things a little clearer.
Firstly, as I've said, they are very messy fish - unlike other fish they don't have a stomach as such, and so the food basically goes in one end and out the other. As well as solid waste, they also produce ammonia which is very toxic to them, then bacteria breaks this down into nitrITE (also toxic), and then nitRATE (not as toxic). Obviously with a large volume of water and a big filter these are more diluted in the water and broken down almost instantly. In a small tank they build up very quickly, though probably not so bad in your tank as you're doing daily water changes, which is great! :thumbsup:

Secondly, goldfish grow big! Fancys should grow to about 6-7", normal goldfish 12". Measure that against the side of your tank and you'll see the problem  There is a bit of truth in the old saying that a goldfish grows to the size of its tank - if they're kept in a small tank where there is no room for them their growth will be stunted. This is not a good thing though, as it basically means they are deformed and they are almost guaranteed to die very young. Bearing in mind that goldfish can live for upto and sometimes over 20 years.

Sorry if any of that sounds a bit patronising, but I don't know how much you know about goldfish and hopefully that explains things a bit! 

The only thing you need to add to the water is dechlorinator - when you're doing a water change you need to put this in the water before you add it to the tank. This removes the chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals from your water.

If you want to put some pics up, we might be able to identify what variety the fish are. If they are fancies then they need a min of 120 litres, if they're normal goldies then really they need more.

Yes, a 4 foot tank takes up alot of room! But if you could see how much my goldies have grown in the few months they've been in there, and how they are so much more active, you'd understand why big tanks are best! 

And now I'm late for work....


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## Emweeze&Treacle (Mar 25, 2009)

iv always been told with goldfish that you need 10 litres per fish... also we had that problem with ours when we first got them it is oxygen that they are after... also you dont need undergravel filters.. i have a 27 litre tank for my two goldfish and one is 5inches long... they have plenty of room totally happy... and they are now 2 yrs old.... ours were gasping at first becuase we brought a rock that [email protected] said was for fresh water and it put salt in the water and made it super cloudy and made them gasp so check that... also to help with the oxygen thing... as with all our fish we have the top of the filter where throws the water out just about the water level... its noisier but it puts plenty of buubbles in your water... so check what stuff you have in there is not poisneing the water... make sure u put something in your water to remove chlorine (very important) and make sure the surface of your water is being broken and putting oxygen in your tank... 

i know what im talkin about i have two goldfish, two tropical red bellied piranhas and 4 marine fish containing some (apparently) hard to keep species... all very happy... very sucessful... 

dont worry make sure u keep and eye and do everything possible to help and im sure they will be fine... when you first put fish in a tank it does get dirty very quick no matter wot u feed how often or the type of fish... this is because the tank needs time to get into a cycle... and time for the natural good bacteria to grow... just keep on top of it...

oh by the way i feed my goldfish and all my other fish everyday... which is wot they were fed at the shops i brought them from... and there fine... obviously make sure ur not chuckin loads of food in... 

what food are you feedin them... i DO NOT recommend flakes... there not good and there messy... we buy little tubs that you click (like sweetners lol) that put out little pellets... these are better for them, last just as long as flakes... and at [email protected] there about 2.50 a tub...


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Emweeze&Treacle said:


> iv always been told with goldfish that you need 10 litres per fish


I'm afraid you've been misinformed - 10 litres is nowhere near big enough for a goldfish 

They are often very resilient fish and do sometimes live for several years in small tanks. But just because they survive does not mean that they are either happy or healthy, and more often than not you'll find that they end up dying young.

Do you test your water at all, Emweeze&Treacle?


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## Staceybob (Jun 13, 2009)

My grandad has a fantastic saying and he breeds fish:

'A fish will grow to fit it's environment'.

If you put them in a big tank, they'll grow big, and if you keep them in a small tank they'll stay small.

I agree with my grandad.

I used to keep fantails; black moor and goldfish in a little kids tank and they lived for many, many years. They were happy so I didn't see the problem.

I think you'd have to be a highly strict fish owner to abide by the apparent needs of litres for a goldfish. 

The way I see it is, at least I'm not keeping them in a blender :\.

Stacey xxx


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## Emweeze&Treacle (Mar 25, 2009)

yes i do and its fine thank you... do not worry about me... i keep a lot of animals... specially fish and all are very very happy and very very healthy... they have plenty of room... n i havent just been told the 10 litre rule i have read it in many of books... 

i do a lot of research before i get any animal... all my pets are well looked after and healthy... specially my fish... the water is tested regular... cleaned regular... water is crystal clear in all my tanks...


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## Staceybob (Jun 13, 2009)

I must agree with EmWeeze&Treacle here.

All the aquarium centres I have been to have disagreed with your ruling of litres Magpie.

Stacey xxx


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Aquatics and pet shops are interested in sales, not animal welfare.

And its not *my* 'ruling of litres', its common knowledge amongst fishkeeping folk that goldfish need a decent amount of space.

Fishkeeping - Keeping Goldfish - The Right Way - Coldwater Articles - Articles

Frequently asked questions on goldfish | Practical Fishkeeping magazine

Sorry to be blunt, but it frikkin infuriates me when people claiming to be animal lovers try to argue that its okay to keep these beautiful fish in what is basically a plastic jug


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## Staceybob (Jun 13, 2009)

I wouldn't call my 100 litre tank a jug :\.

I called it your ruling in the meaning that it's the ruling you follow.

Like how my grandad doesn't follow the same amount of water you do, or my pet shops dont follow the same amount of water as you do.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be good for a goldfish to have all that water. Of course bigger is better, but I think 80 litres for one fish is just a large quantity seeing as some children keep gold fish in a little 20 litre tank.

I wouldn't consider myself cruel seeing as I dont keep them in a kids tank.

Stacey xxx


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

I wasn't referring to your tank (perhaps I should have made that clearer), 100 litres would be a perfect home for a pair of fancy goldfish, for example. It's the 21 and 27 litre tanks that I have a problem with. As I've said, my brother used to keep his goldfish in a 21 litre, so I know how small and inadequate it is.

The 80 litres per fish rule is for 'normal' single-tailed goldfish, which grow much bigger than fancy goldfish and are much faster and more active than fancy goldfish. And if you've looked at the links I posted, you'll see that a heck of a lot of very experienced fishkeepers feel the same way I do.


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## Staceybob (Jun 13, 2009)

How do you determine what a fancy goldfish is?

Just wondering what you'd call mine :\.

Stacey xxx


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Fancy goldfish are varieties that are double-tailed and short-bodied, such as fantails, blackmoors, lionheads, pearlscales, ranchus, celestials, bubble-eyes etc. They tend to grow to a max of about 8", and because of their rounded shape, they don't swim very fast and need less room than the single-tailed varieties.

Single-tailed, long-bodied goldfish tend to grow to around 12" and are much more streamlined and faster than fancy goldfish. Varieties include the 'common' goldfish, comets and shubunkins.

This site has pics and descriptions of the different varieties: http://www.bristol-aquarists.org.uk/goldfish/goldfish.htm


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## Emweeze&Treacle (Mar 25, 2009)

i have a 27 litre tank for my two oranda goldfish are you saying i am cruel... 

i am not... i love my fish... they are 100% in health and happiness... and if i ever felt otherwise they would get a bigger tank... 

i would understand the fuss if ppl were talkin a fish bowl with no filteration, no plants and a no fishing sign in the middle... but mine have plenty of space and air... and are very happy...

and not all shops just want to sell... the aquarium i use doesnt let you take them without adequate equipment... and not once have i been told any of my three tanks are inadequate... iv got baby red bellied piranhas... that wont eat without perfect water & tank conditions... and marine fish including volitan lionfish, valentino puffer, picasso trigger and algae blenny... and all are in big enough tanks (red bellies currently looking for an adult tank as we have them in a nursery tank because we got them very very very small (i like my fingers and want to know where they are lol)if anyone has a bigger one they want rid of by the way )... okayed by a very very good aquarium... (not [email protected]).... fish may not be able to speak but you know when there unhappy... or unhealthy... you can tell by there change in habits...

people are never gonna agree on what is adequate but saying people are cruel is a little out of order... 

anyway im off to bed... been poorly sick...

night guys


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## Staceybob (Jun 13, 2009)

Emweeze&Treacle said:


> i would understand the fuss if ppl were talkin a fish bowl with no filteration, no plants and a no fishing sign in the middle...


I completely agree.

At least we care for our fish by providing them with the equipment to help them survive, unlike some people that shove a goldfish straight into tap water that hasn't been treated, has no plants or filteration.

And pets at home cant be that bad, you can't buy fish from there unless your tank has been up and running for over a week to build up bacteria, or if your tank hasn't been treated with tap water treatmeant and they will refuse to sell you any fish if your tank doesn't have a filter.

I guess mine would be classed as normal goldfish :\ I'm not too sure.

Stacey xxx


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Emweeze&Treacle said:


> i have a 27 litre tank for my two oranda goldfish are you saying i am cruel...


I didn't say you were cruel, I said you were misinformed 
It was never my intention to make anyone feel bad, but I just feel very strongly about this issue - there have been a number of threads recently about goldfish and I was simply trying to help those people who are having problems. In my experience most problems with goldfish are due to poor water quality, which in turn is due to too many fish in tanks that are too small. It happens time & time again on every fishkeeping forum out there.



Emweeze&Treacle said:


> fish may not be able to speak but you know when there unhappy... or unhealthy... you can tell by there change in habits...


I don't know about other varieties of fish, but certainly with goldfish they are very good at concealing ill-health. They have to be really, _really _sick before they show any symptoms at all.

And the [email protected] advice to 'run' your tank for a week before adding fish? I'd tell you what nonsense that is and what you really have to do in order to cycle a tank, but I'm getting the impression that you're determined not to listen to anything I have to say. 
Which is disheartening to say the least...


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Fishyfins, I could hug you, I really could. You put it so much better than me


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## Emweeze&Treacle (Mar 25, 2009)

ok i dont think you guys understand why i am saying what i am saying... you may be gettin frustrated at new fish owners postin these questions but makin them out to be bad keepers (which is wot ur doin whether thats your intention or not) isnt helpful... i know from experience of another pet i asked advice on that was the response... and i havent written on that section since... the same response seems to be in this section too... i have been a member of the rabbit forum for a very long time and noone is spoken to like that... you should be saying have you checked this this this this... then have you tried this this this this... not just saying basically that they have done something wrong... everyone makes mistakes...

by the way im not a new fish keeper.... im just new to this site (welll technically i joined this site a few months back but was not happy with the way i was spoken to in the cat section)... iv kept fish since i can remember... and none have died young...... my orandas have plenty of very very very clean water im obsessive with all my fish and watch over them... el sexmo the smaller of my orandas got ill before and i caught it very early... just because he was acting ever so slightly different... and i know about the cycling thing... all my tanks were allowed to cycle before i got them...

i just think its the way in which you write your advice that upsets ppl... acting all high and mighty and not being supportive... i certainly dont ask advice on here ne more ppl straight away jump to you dont know wot u are doin.. how bout just helpin instead of judgin... yes many ppl may write the same questions if it bothers you dont reply...

do you understand what i am sayin? like in this thread wot about sayin have you checked you equipment is workin correctly.... have you checked you have fresh water compatible rocks in your tank... did you check your fish properly before you brought them... are they showing any other symptoms... and then when they answer those offer advice.... iv everything was ok... and all those came back ok... kindly say without sayin there cruel... maybe its your tank size... and explain that there is too much ammonia goin into the tank and not enough water to handle it... that she will need to consider a bigger tank... and tell her not to worry im sure everyything will be ok as long as she is doin everything possible for her fish... if ppl write on here then they obvsiously care about there fish else they wouldnt bother... just dont be so your doin it wrong... you stupid newbie with ppl... cos ppl dont want to listen to you when you say stuff like that

am i making sense or am i rambling... im not causin a arguement and dont want to come back on and find loads more arguements on here... just leave it we have all said our points and lets leave it like that... any advice for the person who wrote this thread should be in here not arguements


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## Emweeze&Treacle (Mar 25, 2009)

just before i get remarks on el sexmo gettin ill... it was very early on and it was something he got from [email protected] he was the first fish we brought with another oranda that died straight away and we nursed el sexmo back and then brought excrimento... needless to say we brought excrimento from the aqaurium we now use and have brought all our other fish from and who we trust one hundred percent


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Emweeze&Treacle said:


> ok i dont think you guys understand why i am saying what i am saying... you may be gettin frustrated at new fish owners postin these questions but makin them out to be bad keepers (which is wot ur doin whether thats your intention or not) isnt helpful...


I'm not frustrated by new fish owners asking questions, I never said that I was. I think the fact that I try to advise new fish owners is evidence enough of that.
And I never said that anyone was a bad owner. Unfortunately I can't control how people choose to interpret my posts. I always tell people that its not their fault and that we've all made the same mistakes - if they choose to interpret that as "bad owner!" then I'm afraid that is their issue, not mine.



> i just think its the way in which you write your advice that upsets ppl... acting all high and mighty and not being supportive... i certainly dont ask advice on here ne more ppl straight away jump to you dont know wot u are doin.. how bout just helpin instead of judgin... yes many ppl may write the same questions if it bothers you dont reply...


High and mighty??? Thats a bit rich! And I don't judge people because they sometimes make mistakes! All I did was present the facts. Its when people ignore those facts, ignore the evidence that backs them up and then try to tell me that I'm talking nonsense - thats when I get ticked off.



> do you understand what i am sayin? like in this thread wot about sayin have you checked you equipment is workin correctly.... have you checked you have fresh water compatible rocks in your tank... did you check your fish properly before you brought them... are they showing any other symptoms... and then when they answer those offer advice.... iv everything was ok... and all those came back ok... kindly say without sayin there cruel...


And I never said anyone was cruel. If I can see from the first post what the problem is, what is the point of asking a load of random questions before I give advice??



> just dont be so your doin it wrong... you stupid newbie with ppl... cos ppl dont want to listen to you when you say stuff like that


And I never said that anyone was stupid!! I have to say its very annoying to have you accuse me of saying things that I blantently haven't said!



> am i making sense or am i rambling... im not causin a arguement and dont want to come back on and find loads more arguements on here... just leave it we have all said our points and lets leave it like that... any advice for the person who wrote this thread should be in here not arguements


I certainly don't want to have an arguement about it - that would be pointless as it doesn't look like either of us is going to change our minds. But I had to respond to your unfounded accusations as I'm not the kind of person that can let that kind of insult lie. 
Rest assured, I won't be posting here again.


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## u-look-like-a-hamster (Aug 17, 2008)

I have also read its 10 lt per fish.

I now add the stuff to the tank, its alot clearer now, i change it every day still, and clean it everyday.

I love my fishes, they are all tame and will swim through my hand feed from my hand and dance to ladygaga

40lts per fish would be ideal, and fantastic for them , i guess its like my views onkeeping hamsters in rotastak cages (Y)

i will get a bigger tank i have found a 2nd half ft by 1ft tank which is 1 nd 2/5
tall how many lts is that??


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## Staceybob (Jun 13, 2009)

Glad your tank is looking clearer. My fish are certainly doing fine ^__^

Stacey xxx


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## Emweeze&Treacle (Mar 25, 2009)

that wasnt aimed at you stacey bob...


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## Staceybob (Jun 13, 2009)

I know it wasn't :\. I was just stating that I was pleased her tank is getting better.

Stacey xxx


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## Emweeze&Treacle (Mar 25, 2009)

haha no think were getting our wires crossed... no my rant wasnt aimed at you was wot i ment


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## amy trotters mum (Jun 5, 2009)

Hi there! I keep fish. Honestly can't remember how to work out the litreage of a tank, but i'm sure someone will know, if not, search the web. You need a tank of at least 3 feet long, i would personally keep away from bowls as the surface area isn't big enough for the fish to get air. As for changing the water, if you have a filteration system, the general rule is remove about one third of the water every two weeks.
Fish need a balance of bacteria in the water to allow breakdown of food. As for the drops in the water, some people use it, some don't, but if the fish don't seem unduly stressed by the situation, i wouldn't worry about it too much!

Best of luck!


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