# fighting



## Jaysmith (May 12, 2012)

Morning all

I know I have been a stranger for a while, but, bizarrely was having a good read on the discussions last night when it sounded like all hell broke loose in the kitchen. 

Initially I thought the boys were playing as you often hear them running around and jumping on the boxes of an evening, so I went to watch, except to my horror there were clumps of fur flying everywhere and they were having a proper scrap.

I managed to seperate them and they both ran off to different corners of the room and licked their wounds so to speak. Neither appeared injured thankfully. They have never fought before, and judging by the amount of fur on the floor I think I'd know about it even if it had happened when I was out. 

They seemed very cautious around each other when they finally emerged from their corners and unfortunately soon started scrapping again. They were seperated and Sheldon was locked in the cage (converted dog crate) and Leonard left in the room over night. 

This morning I came down and found them lying next to each other with the wire of the cage between them, as if they wanted to be together and were missing each other. 

I opened the door and fed them straight away (pellets via a bowl in the cage) and they happily ate next to each other seemingly with no issues, they seemed very unsure of each other afterwards (would you think me mad if I said it seemed like you could cut the atmosphere with a knife?!) they sniffed around and had moments of being 'nose to nose' then the other side of the room for a good 20 minutes to half an hour before another fight broke out. 

I don't think there is serious injury again, but it is definitely beyound anything playful, it is the only time I have ever heard either of them yelp.

I have had them approx 3 months, I don't know how long they had been bonded at the RSPCA prior to that, but they have always seemed quite docile and happy together. 

What do I need to do to restore peace? Can I keep them seperate in the same room and slowly allow them back together or do I need to seperate them completely for a few days (weeks?) and then look at rebonding them? 

Sorry to only reappear with a load of questions. Its really shocked me how they've turned so quickly. 

Thanks in anticipation. 

jay


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2012)

Oh no, norty bunnies 

What I would do in this situation is to reduce their space, so essentially go back a few steps with the bonding, and then go from there 

Sometimes taking the bonding back a few steps tends to restore the piece  I would also phone the RSPCA centre that you adopted them from to see if they can offer any solutions


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Poor you. poor buns.

Boy/boy/same sex bonds can be more volatile. 

my thoughts 

- how old are they? Have they been neutered? If they are uneutered and at the 6 month mark, then hormones are kicking in. In this case, you have problems. Hopefully not,as they have come from an RSPCA centre. Neutering is top priority, and they need to be kep separate, as buns can do awful damage to each other.

- another thought, has one of the buns been off colour/acting differently lately? If one is poorly, the other can sense it, which changes the heirarchy

- it could be referred aggression, if you have got any new buns lately - oreven another pet such as a kitten could make them turn on each other.

- do give them a thorough check over for wounds, in particular their boy bits. repeat this for the next few days, feeling all over through their coat for scabs - often not obvious straight after a fight. Do seek vets advice and a vet check if either of them stops eating/ has bad a wound/behaves differently. 

- it could be the time of year/dusk/dawn causing them to act like this, and you may be unlucky - your buns may be permanently divorcing sadly. The centre you got them from should be give you support. Are they brothers? Find out if it was an easy bond. The centre may suggest returning one, for a more compatible partner. Horrible I know.

Bernie, Hazy and others will come upo with some good ideas for the way forward.

Good luck


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## Jaysmith (May 12, 2012)

Thanks for the replies both. Bernie, I never bonded the bunnies, they came as a pair from the rspca so I don't really know what steps to take.

I think they are roughly a year and 18 months old. Sheldon has definitely grown while I have had him, he used to be distinctlively smaller than Leonard, now they are similar sized. 

Buns are both neutered, this was done just before I got them, so approx 3 months ago. 

They're not brothers, and there have been no changes in the house recently, I live on my own and don't have any other pets. 

The only thing I can think of is that when I cleaned them out on Saturday I forgot to keep any of the old bedding, so it was all fresh and no scent, but they were fine for 24 hours + after the bedding was all changed so I really can't see it would be that. 

No recent illness that I have picked up on, they've both been eating well, and seemingly interacting as normal with each other. 

I will keep checking them thoroughly for any wounds, they both look so sad at the moment, its making me quite sad! Only difference I could say is that Sheldon was always very very reluctant to be handled, where as since the fights he has been quite willing to let me handle him.

Is it worth percivering for a few more days? Allowing them supervised contact and see if they kiss and make up, or am I living a little bit in dream land with that?

If so would seperating them completely for a few weeks and then trying to start over and bonding them as if they'd never known each other work?


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2012)

Jaysmith said:


> Thanks for the replies both. Bernie, I never bonded the bunnies, they came as a pair from the rspca so I don't really know what steps to take.
> 
> I think they are roughly a year and 18 months old. Sheldon has definitely grown while I have had him, he used to be distinctlively smaller than Leonard, now they are similar sized.
> 
> ...


If I was you I would be tempted to split them for a week or two (especially if they are stressed as this could cause more problems) so that they have the chance to forget their little spat.

Then after a couple of weeks I would start bonding them from scratch http://www.petforums.co.uk/rabbits/226235-bonding-advice.html My bonding method is in that thread 

I would definitely give the centre a call to let them know what is happening, they might be able to take them back in for a bonding refresher


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Please don't blame yourself - you didn't cause this by changing them.

I would keep an eye on Sheldon though, even if he is eating, if his behaviour has changed since fight - there may be an underlying cause/hidden injury. (Bunnies are a prey species, and hide illness/injury for as long as they can). 

I would agree with Bernie - keep them separate for a while, and talk to centre as soon as you can. Our local RSPCA centre has a passionate (volunteer) bunny home visitor (therabbitlady). She encourages people to contact her if there are any problems post adoption - which they do frequently! She offers a brilliant back up outreach service. 


In the meantime, let things calm down between them. If each time they go back together they fight, the bond may become irreparable. Like Bernie says, you will probably need to go right back to basics, so do read up.

I have to say, though, our local centre would not bond 2 unrelated males.


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## Jaysmith (May 12, 2012)

They're separated but in the same room for now, unfortunately I'm on nights until weds so will have to stay that way until I can clear the spare room for them. I don't like thinking of that though as the spare room is upstairs and one of them will be lonely  

I know this is a question that can't be answered, but, if I manage to rebond them what's to say that this won't randomly happen at some point again in the future?

They just look so sad and fed up. 

I don't like being a bunny daddy today


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

We all know that a bun ideally needs company of its own kind, but you can only do what is best in the moment, but while they are separate, do try and give them as much stimulation as possible - toys/boxes/hiding food/attention - to compensate.

And yes - there are no guarantees it won't happen again. In fact, any "couple", "threesome" or otherwise (I'm talking buns!) can divorce sadly. Some buns are more volatile than others (we have one), but there is usually somebun out there for them.

Do contact the centre and let them know what has happened. See what they can advise. Don'tbe frightened to ask for help.Do come back on here. And don't panic!!


Hard, isn't it?


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Naughty bunnies  

I can't add much to what has been said already to be honest. Do you have anywhere else downstairs you could have one of them rather than upstairs on his own?

There is always a chance that this could happen again in the future, even with a successful rebond now, but then it may never happen, so you just have to hope that its the latter. If they bond again now, and it kicks off again at a later date, I would say that they will be destined to be forever "divorcing" and then you will need to decide what to do with them after that.

Follow the bonding advice thread in a couple of weeks, both mine and bernies are on there and we are pretty much the same for bonding anyway and see how they go 

*Heidi*


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## Jaysmith (May 12, 2012)

Again thank you all so much for your time and comments, I can't believe how much its effected me let alone the bunnies, I'm absolutely gutted, they look so sad alone, yet this morning as soon as I opened the cage to feed one the other was trying to cause a fight. I am fairly sure it is Sheldon who is the aggressor now though, I suppose thats something.

The Rspca centre is closed all day tuesdays, so even though I've not had much sleep today, I haven't been able to contact them, which is really frustrating, but I suppose it makes no odds as there is no quick fix they can or will offer. I have started clearing the spare room for one to have a temporary home is, unfortunately there is no where that gets a bit more company that I can use. I have plenty of cardboard boxes that I have taped together and cut holes through to make dens for them etc.

At least after tonights shift I am off for a week (the advantages to 12 hour shifts!) So I can spend a fair amount of time with them.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

You are doing right by separating them for now, before they do major damage to each other. Do check them for hidden wounds - it's easier to feel a scab (yuk!) than a fresh cut.

When they are open, the centre should be able to support you. In the meantime, just make their enclosures as interesting as you can, to help compensate for lack of company.


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## Jaysmith (May 12, 2012)

Just to update you, I spoke to the centre today, and got the good news that they have someone who they class as a bunny expert but the bad news that they weren't available today! I've left my number and am hoping for a call back, if I don't hear tomorrow I'll give them a call back. 

Am going to pop Sheldon to the vets tomorrow, he seems absolutely fine, is eating and drinking as normal and doesn't appear at all distressed but he has a hard lump on his bottom jaw. Its hard to describe, to look at him it looks like a tuft of fur thats been half pulled out, but if you sit with him and fell it it feels really hard, as hard as tooth or bone, but he doesn't flinch or appear even slightly distressed at me touching it. 

On the plus side the spare room is completely cleared now so they both have a decent run of space. I've felt awful having one locked up in their crate, they are normally only ever locked in for a few minutes at a time while I hoover.


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## Jaysmith (May 12, 2012)

All ok at the vets, Sheldons first visit, really rabbit savy vet, made me and the patient feel at ease!

It was a scab that was matter up in his whiskers that has one of (I assume) Leonards claws embedded in it, hence why it felt so hard. She has trimmed the fur and whiskers back but left the scab in situ so not as to have an open wound. I have got a weeks worth of antibiotics and some disinfectant to bathe it in twice daily and review in a week if required. 

If I could pick your collective brains again, the vetinary nurses were quite strongly of the opinion that I should seperate them, but keep them in the same room so they can hear see and smell each other and not forget each other. My plan was to seperate completely for 2 weeks and when Sheldon is fully heeled start attempting to rebond them.
Any thoughts?

Thanks as always


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

There is always a debate on whether to keep them in the same room. Ordinarily you would want them to remember each other, but in this case, having had a big fight, all it will do is keep the tension beween and keep them wanting to go back for more. While they are seperated they can forget all about wanting to fight each other 

My vets/nurses were convinced that after the damage Darwin did to Rascal (it was really nasty) that they would NEVER live together again(as was my mum)  and they cuddle up lovely now, not an ounce of aggression since they were rebonded 

Glad its nothing too serious with Sheldon and you have found a really rabbit savvy vet 

*Heidi*


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2012)

Jaysmith said:


> All ok at the vets, Sheldons first visit, really rabbit savy vet, made me and the patient feel at ease!
> 
> It was a scab that was matter up in his whiskers that has one of (I assume) Leonards claws embedded in it, hence why it felt so hard. She has trimmed the fur and whiskers back but left the scab in situ so not as to have an open wound. I have got a weeks worth of antibiotics and some disinfectant to bathe it in twice daily and review in a week if required.
> 
> ...


Keep with your plan  They have had a fight so they need a chance to forget said fight, otherwise they could a) damage each other through the divide (both myself and another member have had emergency vet visits due to this) and b) the tension will just build up so that when they are put together things kick off straight away and finally c) the stress could cause one or both to go into stasis.

I've tried the side by side method in the past and tbh it caused more stress and hassle, and it took 3 times as long to actually bond the rabbits.


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## Jaysmith (May 12, 2012)

Thank you both  will stick to plan A 
They are both settled into their tempory accomodation, with plenty of boxes and toys for company. 
I'll let you know how they're both getting on and will be sure to pick your brains over the upcoming weeks for bonding advice  have already read the thread linked to earlier a few times to get it clear in my mind


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

I went through this a few weeks ago with my threesome. It's gutting. Especially when you have seen how happy they can be. It's so frustrating. Mine would eat together find then start looking for trouble. You could see the hierarchy changing. I split them and the single one looks better and has gained weight. I think it's important not to give them human emotions. By the sounds of it one or the other is getting territorial now if scraps are breaking out so quickly. I think bernies advice is sound. Separate for now to let them settle. AND DON'T blame yourself! It's just bunnies being bunnies!


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## Jaysmith (May 12, 2012)

I think you have hit the nail on the head about giving them human emotions. Its really hard not to though isn't it?

I think back to when all was well and good (it feels like much more than a week!) and regularly I would walk through and they're just sitting quietly sometimes together and snuggled, but more often they are doing their own thing. And to be honest, a lot of the time they are just 'chilling'. And its exactly the same now, I just can't help but think that they look sad. Its very silly I know. 

On the bright side they are settling nicely. Leonard hasn't changed in the slightest and is still interested in everything, Sheldon is seeming well, but is back to being a little skitty and jumpy again, but to be honest I think half of that is that he is convinced everytime I walk in the room I am going to attack him with a syringe of antibiotics!


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## Tamiyamumma (Sep 13, 2012)

My "does" have just started fighting today. I am saying does like that as I am not entirely convinced that they are both the same. I have a black/white and a grey/white Netherland dwarfs. The black one even attacked me and it is this one that I am unsure of the sex. 

I am gutted as they were for my daughters to help me take care of, but now I cant let them near in case of biting or scratches


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2012)

Tamiyamumma said:


> My "does" have just started fighting today. I am saying does like that as I am not entirely convinced that they are both the same. I have a black/white and a grey/white Netherland dwarfs. The black one even attacked me and it is this one that I am unsure of the sex.
> 
> I am gutted as they were for my daughters to help me take care of, but now I cant let them near in case of biting or scratches


Get the sexes checked asap, and then once they are spayed/neutered the aggressive behaviour will stop


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## Tamiyamumma (Sep 13, 2012)

So I have had them sexed and they are def does so next stop will be the vets so get the spayed! X


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

At least there will be no unexpected babies, and once their hormones die down, they will hopefully get on better, and will be better natured. You may need to separate them for a time though , if they are fighting.

Spaying will also protect them from uterine cancer in the future - and will proect you from the associated bills.


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## Jaysmith (May 12, 2012)

I am not very good at this keeping in touch malarky am I? 

Well long story short, they haven't rebonded at all. They ended up being apart for a month or so as I wanted a clear run of days off when I could be in the house all the time to supervise them. They lasted all of about 30 seconds in the bath before they started to fight. 

Spoke to the RSPCA, they were sympathetic but not able to offer any pearls of wisdom, nor forthcoming with solutions. 

By a stroke of luck a friend at work has a single doe who she's had for about a year that is a childs pet, but she has realised that she wants to get her a mate. So she has adopted Sheldon. Was really difficult having to chose, but such is llife. 

So its just me and Leonard at the moment, he's doing ok on his own, but I know he needs a mate, so I am keeping in touch with the rescue centres waiting to see when they have a suitable 'penny' for me to look at adopting. 

Must admit, I am still really aprehensive at the bonding process having gone through an unsuccessful attempt. I will re-read all your advice again and try to stay in touch a little more this time!


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## gem88 (Jun 2, 2012)

hi where they both boys?
when i got my tilly she'd been put up for adoption because she kept fighting with the other girls in her cage. i brought her home and bonded her with pepper and they're the most loved up pair of wollys you've ever seen lol. 
leonard may well get on a lot better with a wifebun than he did with sheldon xx


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

I would try a different rescue next time, as the RSPCA should have given you better aftercare when it went wrong. Some centtre begin the bonding for you, and give good aftercare and advice 
too.


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