# Retained Testicle



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Does anyone know how much you'd expect to pay to remove a retained testicle in a kitten? I've just had a call from an owner who has been quoted £200 which seems excessive to me.

I feel I should pay for the op as the kitten will need it to be removed but what should I do, Pay the amount above what they'd normally pay for neutering, or pay the lot?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

It's been a very long time since I was in the position of paying towards an owner's vet bill for the same procedure but I'd hazard a guess that £200 is there or thereabouts. Trouble is, pricing varies enormously from surgery surgery for just about most things doesn't it?

Assuming they have to go into the abdomen to look for it you never know how long surgery is going to take which I can only assume will have a bearing on cost.

ETA: I gave the owner the difference between the cost of a 'normal' neutering and what they'd been charged to go in and find t'other one.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks. I'm going to speak to my vet this evening as I'm taking a kitten in for its jab.

Trouble I will have is the owner had been wound up by their vet and really didn't want to hear what I had to say so it's going to be an awkward time I think. Oh the joys of being a breeder!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Closest I've got is a kitten with one undescended testicle at nine weeks and I asked my vet how much extra it would be if it remained the same. My plan was to adjust the price of the kitten if necessary to take account of the added expense for the new owner. My vet quoted £50 extra back in 2010. £200 strikes me as excessive. What does this vet charge for a spay?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

The owner mentioned the normal cost was about £40. I've spoken to my own vet who also thought that £200 was quite steep as he said they'd charge around £130, which I have to say is more what I was expecting.


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## MummyCat (Jul 25, 2011)

Tigermoon said:


> Does anyone know how much you'd expect to pay to remove a retained testicle in a kitten? I've just had a call from an owner who has been quoted £200 which seems excessive to me.
> 
> I feel I should pay for the op as the kitten will need it to be removed but what should I do, Pay the amount above what they'd normally pay for neutering, or pay the lot?


My ragdoll came to me with a retained testicle and I only had to pay the cost of a female spay to have it removed. Every vet is different though.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

That sounds about right. Allow for a vet charging more for a spay than a castration, because a spay is closer to what's involved for a retained testicle, and add 40-50% for the rise in vet costs since I had reason to enquire. £130 works out just about what you'd expect to give them the leeway for having to find the offending article.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I really don't disagree that £200 seems somewhat excessive. I based what I said on the fact that I often cannot fathom pricing differentials. It just seems to me that the moment you move away from a spay/neuter - straightforward, but 'proper' surgery nonetheless, requiring anaesthesia, costs seem to rocket. You can bet your life that if a kitten needed exploratory surgery to find and remove a foreign object from its abdomen you'd likely pay a whole lot more than £200.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Unfortunately the owners vet felt the need to terrify them, telling them that the testicle was probably wrapped round an organ and that they should have had the kitten in for checks every couple of weeks from purchase. Also he insisted that the testicle should be removed right away. I spoke to my own vet about it and he said he'd have waited a further two or three months unless there was a obvious problem. This seemed to be the general advice I found online too.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> Unfortunately the owners vet felt the need to terrify them, telling them that the testicle was probably wrapped round an organ and that they should have had the kitten in for checks every couple of weeks from purchase. Also he insisted that the testicle should be removed right away. I spoke to my own vet about it and he said he'd have waited a further two or three months unless there was a obvious problem. This seemed to be the general advice I found online too.


We had a boxer dog around ten years ago who had an undescended testicle, when he went in for the snip, they had to open him up and retrieve undescended testicle from where it had wrapped itself near his stomach, was a much larger op than the vet had anticipated and my poor dog was stitched from his belly button all the way back  but even then, they only charged us a few quid more than a normal castration. Some vets just see pound signs I think


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Have just spoke to my DIL , they bought their Ragdoll from the breeder at 6mnths old . He too had a retained testicle , he had one op at the cost of £120 they never contacted the breeder for the costs , is it normal practice to do so ? . They wouldn't have done anyway . Not once did the vet terrify them , he just said sometimes it can be awkward to remove , depending where it was hiding . I must admit that this was a vet up North & prices do vary up and down the country , but £200 does seem somewhat excessive imo .


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I think £200 sounds fair for what is pretty tricky abdominal surgery.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

havoc said:


> That sounds about right. Allow for a vet charging more for a spay than a castration, because a spay is closer to what's involved for a retained testicle, and add 40-50% for the rise in vet costs since I had reason to enquire. £130 works out just about what you'd expect to give them the leeway for having to find the offending article.


But spay costs are reduced. We do them at a loss. So routine neutering costs are not a good source of comparison for other surgeries and can be very misleading of expectations.


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> But spay costs are reduced. We do them at a loss. So routine neutering costs are not a good source of comparison for other surgeries and can be very misleading of expectations.


Now that explains why Tabs op was cheaper. I often wondered if neuterings were "subsidised"

I was quoted £150 to fix a vicious strays de-gloved paw...when I was umming about it I said that after fixing it he would have to be kept in for a bit and then he would probably become mine and then i would have to get him done and considering he wasn't mine and I didnt really have the money the vet said "actually if you get him done at the same time the cost will be £142"

And he became mine and the cone he had to wear helped him learn to trust us and that strokes were actually quite nice....


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'd be interested if anyone managed to get their insurer to pay out for removal of a retained testicle. Insurers tend to regard the procedure as routine neutering which isn't covered rather than a separate condition which they'd pay out for. This does leave insured owners stuck between a rock and a hard place if their vet is one who charges top whack.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> I'd be interested if anyone managed to get their insurer to pay out for removal of a retained testicle. Insurers tend to regard the procedure as routine neutering which isn't covered rather than a separate condition which they'd pay out for. This does leave insured owners stuck between a rock and a hard place if their vet is one who charges top whack.


Would they not exclude cover (for the extra cost of going in to find the testicle(s)) on the basis that it was a pre-existing condition? On the occasions this has happened with one of my kittens, I've always informed the owner, suggested they wait until 7-8 months old (if they possibly can) to have the kitten neutered. In most cases the other testicle had appeared by then but in the few where it hadn't, I paid the difference. Long time ago and I can't actually remember the costs.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Would they not exclude cover (for the extra cost of going in to find the testicle(s)) on the basis that it was a pre-existing condition?


Neutering not being covered is the only reason I've heard of them giving. One of the reasons I asked is to see if Agria cover it as they do cover kittens with congenital problems for the breeder don't they? If they don't then it's definitely seen as a straight neutering issue.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> One of the reasons I asked is to see if Agria cover it as they do cover kittens with congenital problems for the breeder don't they?


I don't know. It's definitely covered within the breeding risks insurance which is available to breeders for insuring queens/studs. (I have one of my own girls insured with them). But I've never used the Agria 4 weeks insurance for my kittens when they leave nor have I ever looked at the wording of the same.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> Neutering not being covered is the only reason I've heard of them giving. One of the reasons I asked is to see if Agria cover it as they do cover kittens with congenital problems for the breeder don't they? If they don't then it's definitely seen as a straight neutering issue.


Argia's exclusion wording is as follows:
 Costs to prevent an illness or injury, routine examinations, routine tests, 
routine treatment for your pets general wellbeing, tests to investigate the 
general health of your pet, vaccinations, spaying, castration, caesarean 
section, pregnancy or giving birth.

I think its highly unlikely they'd pay for removal of a retained testicle. Kittens are only covered by the queens policy up to the date that the new owner takes them.

I'm pretty sure it isn't covered even if you have the breeding risks cover because I don't recall seeing anything specific about it in my policy and I have my stud insured by Agria. Will have to have another nosy!

I haven't as yet heard back from the kittens owner, I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing!


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

I paid £166 for my Rosso about 3 years ago!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Kittens are only covered by the queens policy up to the date that the new owner takes them.


I know of a breeder who held onto a kitten for exactly this reason. There was something wrong with the eyes and the surgery cost around £2k. I'd guess it was diagnosed very early but couldn't be operated on until older/bigger.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Pleased I read this thread ... I sold a kitten this year , he is now 7 months both of his Pom Poms are retained .. They have been to the vets with him today and the cost to sort him is £450 ...  

That's is so excessive ... I had a C section and Spay on Xmas day which only costed 250 .. Do they just pick prices out the sky 

Madness


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Having to find two is more work but £450? That's more than I paid for a C-section not long ago and the costs were itemised so I know they included extra staff to take the kittens. I think the answer is to shop around, some vets obviously view it as complicated surgery and quote on a worst case basis.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

They had been with the vet for 17 years and all 7 of their pet are with them so a lot of money over the years

As for the C section and Spay/ultrasound , I was very happy with that price as it was Xmas Day when she decided to have kittens 2 weeks early


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> Does anyone know how much you'd expect to pay to remove a retained testicle in a kitten? I've just had a call from an owner who has been quoted £200 which seems excessive to me.
> 
> I feel I should pay for the op as the kitten will need it to be removed but what should I do, Pay the amount above what they'd normally pay for neutering, or pay the lot?


My lad is now 17 and I do remember paying £90 back then!! That included post-op (removing stitches) and I'm talking about London prices..


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## jasminex (Oct 16, 2012)

Humphrey had one, I wouldn't have thought to ask the breeders to pay (though I did let them know). I claimed for it in petplan and they paid up.

Edit: and the vet said to wait a bit of extra time to see if it came down naturally, so it wasn't done til he was 7 months...


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## MummyCat (Jul 25, 2011)

I had 3 boys at the same time and at 4 months I had two with retained testicles. My vets were very good and advised that we wait another month or two to see if they decended by them selves. No scare tactics, just good advice on what to expect if they didn't descend. At 6 months it was just Darcy who was still undefended, surgery was a little more complex but we were only charged the price of a spay and then just some pain killers for him. I would never had even tried to get the breeder to pay for the surgery.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Cosmills said:


> Pleased I read this thread ... I sold a kitten this year , he is now 7 months both of his Pom Poms are retained .. They have been to the vets with him today and the cost to sort him is £450 ...
> 
> That's is so excessive ... I had a C section and Spay on Xmas day which only costed 250 .. Do they just pick prices out the sky
> 
> Madness


Good Lord!  They must have charged for each testicle!

The kitten in question in my case was 5.5 months old. I really don't know why their vet didn't advise to wait a little longer to see if the testicle came down, the kitten was not ill or showing any sign the testicle was causing a problem. He also told them the kitten should have been examined every 2 weeks to make sure he was alright.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> Good Lord!  They must have charged for each testicle!
> 
> The kitten in question in my case was 5.5 months old. I really don't know why their vet didn't advise to wait a little longer to see if the testicle came down, the kitten was not ill or showing any sign the testicle was causing a problem. He also told them the kitten should have been examined every 2 weeks to make sure he was alright.


They must charge per Pom Pom .. Cannot believe it me

This kitten has been checked every 6 weeks since 6 months ... I doubted he was a boy at one point lol ...

The owners are not bothered about the cost just want him sorted .. Peace of mind..


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## Idontlikecoffee (Jan 20, 2012)

Jacob had a retained testicle, his breeder kept him until he was 7 months old to see if it might descend, but it did not, so he had to have surgery to find and remove it.

The breeder was a vet nurse who assisted in procedure and she said it took a long time, like searching for a needle in a haystack, he had to be cut open on his side and on his belly for it to be finally found, so it does not surprise me if it might be quite an expensive operation.

Jacob was supposed to be a stud cat, but of coarse could not be with one testicle, maybe i'm being very selfish, but i'm glad he only had one, because if he had both i would never have got to share my life with him.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Ho joy!

I have received a letter from the owners demanding that not only I pay the vet bill but also give them half the money back they paid for the kitten as he is 'defective'. Charming!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

A friend who sold a female cat with a hernia asked her (expensive!) vet for the difference between a normal flank spay and a mid-line including repairing the hernia and took that off the purchase price.

However I suspect the cost of finding a lost testicle varies with just how lost it is - AFAIK it can be anywhere from just inside the inguinal ring to next to the kidney - and I imagine her vets have quoted a worst case price.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> Ho joy!
> 
> I have received a letter from the owners demanding that not only I pay the vet bill but also give them half the money back they paid for the kitten as he is 'defective'. Charming!


How ridiculous. Not that he ever was "defective" but he certainly won't be "defective" once the errant testicle (and its mate) is found and removed! For goodness sakes; isn't it fortunate that the vast majority of our lovely new kitten owners don't turn into unreasonable beggars?


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> Ho joy!
> 
> I have received a letter from the owners demanding that not only I pay the vet bill but also give them half the money back they paid for the kitten as he is 'defective'. Charming!


This is really sad  I'd never dream of calling Bea or Dante "defective" if there was something wrong with them. You kind of take a risk when buying an animal that there may be problems down the line!

Do you have a clause in your kitten contract saying you take no liability past so many months?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Tigermoon said:


> Ho joy!
> 
> I have received a letter from the owners demanding that not only I pay the vet bill but also give them half the money back they paid for the kitten as he is 'defective'. Charming!


I'd ask for him back if he's defective  Honestly I've never heard anything so appalling


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

The precise words used were "defective goods". Such a shame as I had three people after this kitten but these were the first to contact me so I gave them first option. They seemed so nice too. This seems to be becoming more frequent, I've had a couple of friends who've had buyers come back at them for illness and/or vets fees several weeks (7 months in one case!) after purchase. We are in such a litigious society now 



Jellypi3 said:


> Do you have a clause in your kitten contract saying you take no liability past so many months?


No it doesn't at the moment but I'm about to rewrite it! It will also state that new owners MUST take the kitten to their own vet for a checkup within a week of purchase. I always tell my new owners to do this and I told these people too. However, I don't think he's ever been near a vet until he was neutered .... or their own vet didn't tell them there was an issue if they did!


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Obviously just trying it on, Some people are just vile!!!! I can tell you my Rosso ISN'T defective and as soon as he had his retained testicle whipped out he is just the same as every other neutered cat :incazzato::incazzato:

It didn't even occur to me to ask his breeder to even pay for the op (She was already quite upset that her vet hadn't picked up on it and had been more than generous with her time and extras when he came to me!)

Bloody liberty, I would be really upset and be inclined to pay her and get him back and away from the b**ch!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

oliviarussian said:


> Bloody liberty, I would be really upset and be inclined to pay her and get him back and away from the b**ch!


Funnily enough that is the first thing that my friend said to me, almost word for word!

The kitten has had the op so is just like any other neutered male kitten!


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Shocking really, that they see their kitten as goods  Poor baby.

I hope you sort it all out


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Seems odd why they would want to kick up such a fuss,unless maybe they were hoping to breed from him,otherwise why does it matter

They'd get nowt from me.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> They'd get nowt from me.


That's the thing. I, like many breeders, always try to be fair with people - more than fair most of the time. But the minute they become this way, that's it, they've had their chips! Silly people.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm just wondering how to respond to the letter I've received. I can't just ignore it, but have no idea what to say


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> I'm just wondering how to respond to the letter I've received. I can't just ignore it, but have no idea what to say


Did you end up paying towards the extra for the neutering?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I have replied on this thread with a link to the legal stuff... did it get deleted or did I just mess up the posting process?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Did you end up paying towards the extra for the neutering?


They've only just written to me demanding a precise amount. So no ...



Shoshannah said:


> I have replied on this thread with a link to the legal stuff... did it get deleted or did I just mess up the posting process?


I never saw anything Shoshannah


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> They've only just written to me demanding money. So no ...


Ah, I see.

I don't know anything about the legalities and, that aside anyway, I suppose as breeders we'll all handle things differently so I can only say what I would personally do.

I do feel that it is my responsibility to know whether kittens are entire at the point of sale and, if they are not, inform the new owner of it, explaining the possible outcome (i.e. more extensive neuter surgery and the increased cost). If they wanted to go ahead and have the kitten anyway I have discounted the cost of the kitten to pay towards the possible extra costs.

When it's all come to light after the event as has with this kitten, I would write to them, short and sweet, offering the difference in cost between a normal neuter. They would get a polite but firm refusal for anything further. Presumably the kitten is recovering well, is minus both testicles and I would personally feel that my offer would put them back financially exactly where they would have been, had the kitten had both testicles descended when he left for his new home.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> They've only just written to me demanding a precise amount. So no ...
> 
> I never saw anything Shoshannah


Blrgh, stupid computer!  Sorry about that! I can't remember exactly what I typed, but as of last year there is an excellent 'plain English' guide to feline law available.

Page 7 onwards outlines the legal aspects of sales:

http://www.thecatgroup.org.uk/pdfs/Cats-law-web.pdf


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Tigermoon said:


> Ho joy!
> 
> I have received a letter from the owners demanding that not only I pay the vet bill but also give them half the money back they paid for the kitten as he is 'defective'. Charming!


!!!!!!!!  how awful 

My Timmy Tail has bowed legs .....I guess that means he is "defective" and I should have asked for half my money back ?!!

What a horrible thing to say 

You must be quite hurt by their attitude


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Interesting. I think the issue of whether we are 'businesses' or not really needs to be properly clarified, even this leaflet didn't really seem to know but lumped breeders in as businesses, which I think could be pretty easily contested by virtue of the costs involved compared to the income received. Also I go to work, the cats are not my source of income (rather a large drain in fact  )

It does say this:

"Hobby breeders should be aware of this, since the question as to whether they are operating in the course of a business will be one that is decided on the facts of each individual case taking into account such factors as the frequency of sales, whether advertising was undertaken and receipts kept, how much money was made and how much was spent, etc."

The CBA however say this regarding private sales:

"When you buy something from a private seller, you lose some of the statutory rights you get when you buy from a business. The goods must match any description given and you have a right to claim a refund if you find out the seller doesn&#8217;t have a right to sell the goods. However, you don&#8217;t have the right to buy something of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose. So you can&#8217;t force the seller to give you a refund if you find out there&#8217;s something wrong with what you bought. For example, if you buy a teapot from a private seller at a car boot sale, you can&#8217;t force the seller to give you your money back if you find out the teapot leaks when you fill it with water."

I sold the kitten as a pet. He has at all times been the pet I sold them and now that he has had his op he is no different from any other neutered male cat . He really can't be described as 'defective goods' surely?


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> Ho joy!
> 
> I have received a letter from the owners demanding that not only I pay the vet bill but also give them half the money back they paid for the kitten as he is 'defective'. Charming!


I think this is absolutely disgusting! How can they say he is defective goods?! Surely they love him regardless? This truly makes me sad. I wouldn't give them anything but also understand that you won't want your reputation to be damaged


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

daisysmama said:


> I think this is absolutely disgusting! How can they say he is defective goods?! Surely they love him regardless? This truly makes me sad. I wouldn't give them anything but also understand that you won't want your reputation to be damaged


It is disgusting and I would find it irritating that they obviously think they're being smart in using the situation to try and recoup some of the purchase price.

It's always so much easier to put your personal integrity to one side when people are behaving this way but, as you've said, it's your own reputation you damage in the end and the cat fancy is a small world. I also don't think it helps in these types of situation to focus on the legalities; just treat people how you'd like to be treated yourself... even in the face of small minded idiots.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I don't think Tigermoon should worry about the 'reputation' aspect. After all, nasty people can slander those who are pure as the driven snow and there is no comeback because there is never sufficient proof.

The GCCF requires a certificate of entirety for any male cat used at stud. We know that is no guarantee a kitten will not be born monorchid because the suspicion is that the inherited aspect is probably recessive and therefore present in the female as well. 

However, since there is no way to establish whether a monirchid kitten has inherited the condition or if it is congenital, I don't think the breeder can be held responsible. There is no test available and anyway, it is not a disease, it is an abnormality which does not interfere with the kitten's suitability as a pet.

I am afraid I have extreme views on this sort of owner and I would be taking all possible steps to retrieve the kitten if he were my breeding. How can they be trusted to look after him in the future when they have this sort of mercenary attitude? Are they going to come back asking for other vets fees in the future if he requires treatment for another condition? None of us has a crystal ball to tell what our kittens' futures hold. (If Tigermoon had one, these people would never have had the kitten in the first place!)


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

QOTN said:


> The GCCF requires a certificate of entirety for any male cat used at stud.


Indeed, and the father and both grandfathers of this kitten had belonged to the same lady and were all in possession of a COE.



QOTN said:


> However, since there is no way to establish whether a monirchid kitten has inherited the condition or if it is congenital, I don't think the breeder can be held responsible.


My vet said much the same when I contacted him after the phone call I received from these people a couple of weeks ago. The GCCF wouldn't have registered the kitten if there was an issue with the COE certificates down the pedigree. I made sure all was in order before buying the mum of the kitten and then taking her to stud.



QOTN said:


> Are they going to come back asking for other vets fees in the future if he requires treatment for another condition? None of us has a crystal ball to tell what our kittens' futures hold. (If Tigermoon had one, these people would never have had the kitten in the first place!)


This is definitely a concern I have, will it be a further 16+ years of hassle from these people! If only, is something I've often expressed over the years I've been breeding cats, never more so than in this case though!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

QOTN said:


> I don't think Tigermoon should worry about the 'reputation' aspect. After all, nasty people can slander those who are pure as the driven snow and there is no comeback because there is never sufficient proof.
> 
> The GCCF requires a certificate of entirety for any male cat used at stud. We know that is no guarantee a kitten will not be born monorchid because the suspicion is that the inherited aspect is probably recessive and therefore present in the female as well.
> 
> ...


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Forgive me if I'm missing something in this thread (and I've embarrassed myself previously having done just that!) but what does genetics, etc, and the fact that males in previous generations were entire and had the relevant Certs of Entirety? This particular kitten didn't have both descended, the breeder and their vet hadn't noticed this and, therefore, the owner was unaware at the time of purchase?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> since when did not having sufficient proof stop anyone in the cat fancy from gossiping their socks off?


:lol:
First requirement for anyone thinking of breeding - a very thick skin!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm positive, judging by Tigermoon's contributions to this forum that she (he?!) is a highly ethical and responsible breeder.


A she last time I looked  And God I do hope so in regards to the second part of the sentence



gskinner123 said:


> However, we all make mistakes and I do think a mistake was made in not ascertaining that the kitten was entire at the time of sale; 'finding two' is the simplest of jobs for a vet at 12 week vaccinations and a cryptorchid/monorchid kitten does come, for the owner, with the potential for extensive and expensive surgery.





gskinner123 said:


> This particular kitten didn't have both descended, the breeder and their vet hadn't noticed this and, therefore, the owner was unaware at the time of purchase?


In fact at the time of vaccination I wasn't told by the vet (not my usual one) there was anything amiss and I would have sold him completely unaware as I thought that I could feel two. I really didn't think that there was a problem. From now on I will be ensuring that all male kittens are checked carefully and it is written on their records at the vets! In all my years of breeding, I've never had a kitten without both pompoms, some might have been a bit slower than others but they all got there.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> I thought that I could feel two. I really didn't think that there was a problem. From now on I will be ensuring that all male kittens are checked carefully and it is written on their records at the vets! In all my years of breeding, I've never had a kitten without both pompoms, some might have been a bit slower than others but they all got there.


You have my every sympathy. I am utterly hopeless at deciding whether or not there are two (unless they're large and very obvious) and the last time I did this with a 9 week old kitten I realised I'd been pushing the one testicle the kitten DID actually have to the left and right, leading me to think he had two 

I think we can add to Havoc's thick skin requirement the propensity for having very long conversations about testicles without even breaking a smile.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> You have my every sympathy. I am utterly hopeless at deciding whether or not there are two (unless they're large and very obvious) and the last time I did this with a 9 week old kitten I realised I'd been pushing the one testicle the kitten DID actually have to the left and right, leading me to think he had two
> 
> I think we can add to Havoc's thick skin requirement the propensity for having very long conversations about testicles without even breaking a smile.


Maybe I fell into the same trap as you gskinner, one pompom pretending to be two!

I've been trying to find a 'form' letter to use. There are plenty about requesting refunds, I even found the very letter these people had used, but I've had no luck finding one about refusing them, only a vague hints and tips type thing from ehow.

Would it be prudent to request that they send me a copy of the bill before paying anything? After all I only have their word that they paid the price they are asking and that the cost of a normal neutering is what they've said. I have noticed however that the cost they are claiming now is considerably less that what they originally told me it would be for the op ....


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> Would it be prudent to request that they send me a copy of the bill before paying anything? ..... I have noticed however that the cost they are claiming now is considerably less that what they originally told me it would be for the op ....


I would most definitely ask for a copy of the bill before anything else. And depending upon how you're going to handle things, written confirmation from their vet of the cost of a straightforward neuter.

I guess you will never know whether they intentionally inflated the cost estimate or whether it was a true estimate, later adjusted down by the vet because surgery was quicker/simpler than it might otherwise have been. I'd be sorely tempted to try and find out by also requesting written confirmation of the vet's original estimate too... but that's just me and I too often lead myself into a barney as a result :/


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I have to apologise for my use of the term 'crystal ball' in view of the subject. 'Clairvoyant' would probably have been a more suitable word.

Julia May always said that both testicles should be present in the scrotal sac at birth, but when the certificate of entirety rule was being discussed, some breeders were adamant that their breeds were 'late developers.' 

I know nothing about this and I never bred a kitten without both of them but although there has been an oversight in not recognising this problem before the kitten left, surely offering to pay the difference in the cost of neutering was all that was required and yes, I would insist on seeing the bill before paying anything.

Sorry if you thought I was rambling, gskinner, when I was referring to the certificate of entirety etc, but it was in response to the legal aspect of this situation. I don't think a court would agree that it is something the breeder should have tested for when there is no test and the above certificate was at least an attempt to reduce the numbers of monorchid kittens with the inherited condition.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Kitten's testicles normally ARE in the scrotum at birth, and because mine are neutered before they go my vet checks carefully... And AFAIK when they are not the time they are both present does vary.

My suggestion is get a written quote from your vet for their normal fee for castration, and refund the difference between that and an itemised bill from the kitten owner's vet for his op.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

QOTN said:


> I have to apologise for my use of the term 'crystal ball' in view of the subject. 'Clairvoyant' would probably have been a more suitable word.
> 
> Sorry if you thought I was rambling, gskinner, when I was referring to the certificate of entirety etc, but it was in response to the legal aspect of this situation.


Crystal ball... I had missed your unintentional pun!

No, I didn't think you were rambling at all. I was very much focused on the 'what to do?' aspect, completely oblivious to the fact that the legal aspects, etc, were being discussed.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

I am so sorry you are having this problem ... Some ppl 

The owners got my boy done last week at the cost of £300 they were high up so were never going to come down .. They were fully aware when they took him at 14 weeks his pom-Poms hadn't dropped .. 

They would like another kitten off me this year so I offered kitty at a reduced price .. They said no they main priority was him not the money but thanks for the offer , they have three of my babies now 

I cannot say what to do or not do that's upto you , but using words like deflected would totally get my back up and I would pay to get the kitten back ..


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm no lawyer, but TBH if your vet did not find the cryptorchidism and has recorded on the kittens' file that everything was okay then I would guess that could be used as evidence that you sold the kitten in good faith.

Since the kitten was sold as a pet and not a show prospect or breeding boy then I would argue that cryptorchidism doesn't make him unfit for purpose, since he was going to be neutered anyway.

ETA: the reason the word 'defective' has been used is because under UK law cats are considered items of property. While it is cold and callous to us as cat lovers, it's actually pretty reasonable legal mumbo-jumbo.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> I'm no lawyer, but TBH if your vet did not find the cryptorchidism and has recorded on the kittens' file that everything was okay then I would guess that could be used as evidence that you sold the kitten in good faith.
> 
> Since the kitten was sold as a pet and not a show prospect or breeding boy then I would argue that cryptorchidism doesn't make him unfit for purpose, since he was going to be neutered anyway.
> 
> ETA: the reason the word 'defective' has been used is because under UK law cats are considered items of property. While it is cold and callous to us as cat lovers, it's actually pretty reasonable legal mumbo-jumbo.


I suspect in this case they have spoken to the CBA, been told that as it is a private sale there is nothing they can really do but to try writing to me asking for a refund and seeing what happens. The letter they used is one off the CBA's website. I think the request for a partial refund of the purchase is them trying in on big style.

I'm going to write back saying that before I even consider their request I must be sent a 'certified'copy of their vet bill which has been stamped by the practice. I have in mind a proposal for when I receive said bill.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> My suggestion is get a written quote from your vet for their normal fee for castration, and refund the difference between that and an itemised bill from the kitten owner's vet for his op.


I think that sounds fair.

Hope things work out, not a nice situation to be in at all. Neutering before adoption does avoid these issues.

I do leave the feeling of testicles to the vet usually, little darlings don't need granny in there poking around


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

They've effectively muddied what they believe is their case. The parts of SoGA they're relying on don't apply as it's a private sale BUT if we forget that and play their game for a minute then they haven't played by the rules. The only thing they're entitled to is their money back on return of the goods. They've effected a repair themselves when it's up to the seller to offer one if the seller wishes. A partial refund is something the parties could negotiate if they wished but they can't expect to be paid a partial refund AND the costs of a 'self-help' repair. If they intended to go down this route then they should have left the goods as sold until agreement was reached.

As a breeder I'd always look to come to some agreement - right up to the moment a buyer starts playing the internet lawyer. Then my heels would dig in so hard you'd think they were set in concrete


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> They've effectively muddied what they believe is their case. The parts of SoGA they're relying on don't apply as it's a private sale BUT if we forget that and play their game for a minute then they haven't played by the rules. The only thing they're entitled to is their money back on return of the goods. If they intended to go down this route then they should have left the goods as sold until agreement was reached.
> 
> As a breeder I'd always look to come to some agreement - right up to the moment a buyer starts playing the internet lawyer. Then my heels would dig in so hard you'd think they were set in concrete


By the time they rang me, the kitten had had the op and was recovering. In fact they were just about to head to the vets to pick him up, so I was given no opportunity to discuss the issue at all, it was all done and dusted. Had they rung me before the op I would have contacted my vet for advice and passed this onto them and we could have discussed it in an adult manner.

I did ring my vet anyway and he was surprised that the op had been done on a 5.5 month old kitten which wasn't having any medical problems, he said he'd have waited until the kitten was 8 months at the earliest, with a check each month, just in case the offending item decided it would put in an appearance after all. I googled the problem and this did seem to be the advice on everything I read.

Its an absolute nightmare and has pushed me to the point of giving up breeding simply because this sort of thing seems to be becoming more and more common, with several breeders I know having had similar problems of owners coming back at them for vets fees in the last year


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Its an absolute nightmare and has pushed me to the point of giving up breeding simply because this sort of thing seems to be becoming more and more common, with several breeders I know having had similar problems of owners coming back at them for vets fees in the last year


Just because people try it on doesn't mean they actually have a case and would win. Very few chancers would take it to court, most are hoping for a quick buck without too much effort. Those who pay up to make it go away are the ones fuelling this behaviour.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I did ring my vet anyway and he was surprised that the op had been done on a 5.5 month old kitten which wasn't having any medical problems, he said he'd have waited until the kitten was 8 months at the earliest, with a check each month, just in case the offending item decided it would put in an appearance after all. I googled the problem and this did seem to be the advice on everything I read.


So your expert witness does not agree the expensive remedial actions taken were necessary at the time


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> So your expert witness does not agree the expensive remedial actions taken were necessary at the time


No, he'd have waited.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> No, he'd have waited.


I was told to wait as well, we had a monthly check to see if anything had dropped and held off until Rosso was 8 months old by which time my vet and I decided we couldn't put it off any longer as apart from his stinky wee he was starting to get a bit of a bully with my other boy!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> No, he'd have waited.


But would that have made any difference to the cost?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But would that have made any difference to the cost?


Well yes if waiting might have resulted in a normal castration rather than complicated surgery.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> Well yes if waiting might have resulted in a normal castration rather than complicated surgery.


That's true, though it wouldn't be nice waiting if he turned into a teenager complete with smelly urine and spraying.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Well if it gets to court you can come and argue for the plaintiff and I'll take the defendant


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> Well if it gets to court you can come and argue for the plaintiff and I'll take the defendant


I certainly hope it doesn't get this far!!!!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It shouldn't but you shouldn't be worried or bullied into doing anything you don't want just because they're now threatening you with internet legalese.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> Well if it gets to court you can come and argue for the plaintiff and I'll take the defendant


If I were Tigermoon I would be very confident if I had Havoc as my defence!


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

If he was sold as a pet, he'd be on the non active register. Taken from the GCCF website, under "registration" : NON-ACTIVE REGISTER - this is determined by the breeder and is printed on the Registration form. The breeder wishes to control the breeding from the kitten/cat for various reasons.

"The breeder wishes to control the breeding from the kitten/cat for various reasons". New owner didn't ask for a breeding cat, you didn't supply one. Once testicles found and removed he is a normal pet only neuter, no defects. Case dismissed! 

You might want to offer to rehome him though, they might just be trying it on and saw a way of getting some money back, but they might have no use for him if the plan all along was to breed and now he's no good to them.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I have sent a letter to the owners now, but I have to admit I am very frightened and am now seriously considering giving up breeding. My family keep telling me not to worry, but at the end of the day its not them who could find themselves in court


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> I have sent a letter to the owners now, but I have to admit I am very frightened and am now seriously considering giving up breeding. My family keep telling me not to worry, but at the end of the day its not them who could find themselves in court


Don't you dare give up breeding over something like this.

Have you contacted your vet? What do their clinical notes say?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Tigermoon said:


> I have sent a letter to the owners now, but I have to admit I am very frightened and am now seriously considering giving up breeding. My family keep telling me not to worry, but at the end of the day its not them who could find themselves in court


Just sending best wishes and thoughts for you. What a horrible situation to be in  Please, please don't let it stop you from breeding


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> Don't you dare give up breeding over something like this.
> 
> Have you contacted your vet? What do their clinical notes say?


Yes I spoke to my vet. She checked the kittens notes but the last check he had when she thought she could feel two pompoms was not written up. She couldn't remember the visit which considering it was in October and she must have seen hundreds of animals since then is not surprising, but not helpful for me really. I kick myself of course, I should have ensured it got typed up (mental note taken for future).

She is the second vet at the practice I discussed the case with and like the first she was very surprised that the kitten had been neutered so young when he wasn't having any problems. I suppose the owners went with their vets advice but I do wish they'd contacted me before going ahead. I had no idea until the Op was over and the kitten was about to be collected.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

They are trying it on....there is absolutely no way it's going to court!

Please don't let them bully you and give up breeding because of this


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Please don't be frightened, just be ready to stay strong. I've known many cases like this where owners get stroppy. They start quoting irrelevant bits from SoGA and convincing themselves they're entitled to something. I've known of some who even got as far as solicitors letters - and many, many more who supposedly had a brother/sister/cousin/uncle in the legal profession. I sometimes think I'm the only person in the world not related to a senior judge  I've seen varying levels of threats but not once have I seen an undeserving claim go further.


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## jasminex (Oct 16, 2012)

This is completely ridiculous, it is a living animal and it's not like a radio or something where you can guarantee nothing will go wrong. 

As someone else said where is the cut off! 1 year? 5 years? My kitten broke his leg the first night we got him costing me/Petplan's free 4 week insurance thousands. But I didn't go back and tell the breeder to pay up as they had sold me an incompetent climber!

Humphrey then turned out to be cryptorchid and guess what, I didn't think that was their responsibility either. My or Humphrey's bad luck perhaps. S*** happens and anyway, your buyers may be able to claim it on insurance if it is the cost they are worried about (as I said Petplan paid up for me). Ridiculous. Don't let them harass you! rrr:


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## Tiffiny (Aug 20, 2014)

Hi, iv been following this post and kept meaning to write, i do not think you can be held responsible for this, i think when you buy a pet they become your responsiblity from the minute you take them home, its a different story if you sold him knowing he had this but you didn't and clearly had him health checked before selling, i know you said the vet didn't write in his notes he had both balls but at the same time she didn't write he didn't have both balls. 
I brought my bulldog and she had cherry eye from a young age i didn't for a minute think i'm going to ask the breeder to pay for her operation as she's my dog now i went and chose her and she was perfect when i picked her up its just one of those things bulldogs can get and she got it. 

I think the real reason these people are so annoyed is what someone has already mentioned they were hoping to breed from him, but again that isn't your fault you have not sold them a stud on the active register.

Don't give up breeding what you love over some silly person


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

What did you say in your letter?
Did you just ask for proof of the surgery and the cost involved or did you commit to anything?

Once you have a copy of the bill, you can contact the vet in question and ask what made it so important to neuter early instead of waiting till 7 months, according to protocol, to see if the testicle would descend by itself. You can then also ask for a quote for a regular neuter.

When you have this information, you may consider whether or not you intend to pay the difference between a regular neuter and this surgery, or maybe half of it, or that you decide to give the owners a choice between forking out the money themselves or you buying the kitten back at the same price you sold it for, in which case, AND ONLY THEN, will you also pay for the surgery.

Personally, the only offer I would make was to buy the cat back.
After all, they claimed it was 'defective goods', and the only claim they would legally have is for you to take the goods back and refund the money.
You cannot even be made to refund the cost of surgery imo, as they went ahead without offering you the possibility to take the goods back in the state you delivered them in. When you buy a car and have it repaired without the dealer's knowledge or involvement, he will most certainly not honour his guarantee either.

Edit:

it would have been a different matter if they had tried to get in touch with you but you could not be reached.
But they obviously didn't. They just went ahead and on the rebound decided to try and rip you off.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> After all, they claimed it was 'defective goods', and the only claim they would legally have is for you to take the goods back and refund the money.


I can only back this up in the strongest possible terms. Once they have started using consumer law as their argument then they can't pick and choose which bits they want to apply. As it happens I don't believe their position is valid but it is the one they've chosen.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I did seek advice before I wrote my letter and in the end I wrote back a polite but firm letter telling them they should have contacted me before the op so we could have discussed the way forward. I am on pins though, my stomach flips whenever I think about it and I will be on edge for weeks. Its got so bad I'm afraid to answer the phone! Ridiculous I know, but it has made me wonder if its worth the hassle ... having neutered cats seems oh so appealing right now!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

No need to get yourself in a state, they don't have a leg to stand on, and are just trying it on. This panicky reaction of yours is exactly what they are hoping for.

Just answer them in the same vein, they claim you delivered faulty goods, and you claim they didn't offer you an opportunity to take the goods back, or to have them fixed or replaced. Which makes any claim of theirs null and void, as they should have given you a chance to rectify the mistake.

I would try and get the kitten back, though, even if it means paying them back and paying for the op as well. You wouldn't want people like this to have a cat of yours....

So that will be the only offer you make, to take him back and refund. And *as a courtesy*, you _may_ throw in (part of) the vet cost, but _*only*_ if they return the kitten to you.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

An interesting thread for me actually as I suspect same breed (Birman?)

My last litter I had 2 boys & both were suspect missing testes at 1st vaccs & at second vaccs 1 was still missing testes.

I had told 1 owner after the first as they wanted to show & the vet was less convinced that they were missing for the other so didn't mention to pet owners at that stage. After 2nd vaccs it was the pet that was missing both definitely so I had to explain it all to them as to what it was and what it meant (ie don't leave as they can turn into tumours).

Whilst I gave them the chance to opt out (they didn't) I also made it quite clear that these boys, show or pet, were both to be neutered regardless as per contract so it was just a case of a different procedure. When I asked for a ball park (excuse the pun hehehe) figure I was told up to £200 depending on how hard they are to find in the torso in worst case scenario. I offered them an appointment with my vet at 6 months as an extra check & never heard anything untoward after that.

Obviously a different stage to yourself as I told them before they bought him so had the chance to make it really clear that as he was bought as a pet the presence of his testes was immaterial aside from a different procedure (& POSSIBLE hefty bill). So as to "faulty goods" comments - er no he's a pet kitten so his pom poms are to be removed regardless it is just how they are removed that has changed. How awful that they treat him as a commodity.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I have received a letter back from the owners today. They are insisting I am a business, that I MUST pay them the money they have requested and if they don't receive it I will be taken to court. I am absolutely terrified. I'm sitting here shaking as I try to type this message. I don't know what to do now. I haven't got the money to buy the kitten back from them thanks to a recent vet bill.

But that is it, I will not be breeding any longer, I can't face people like this.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I bet HMRC don't regard you as a business. They sound really nasty people.

Have they even sent any proof of the op, for example their vet's bill?


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Call their bluff , I know you are in a terrible state over this . But you must not let them get to you , i am not a breeder but , if i were then i would be telling them " see you in court then " . I would never let anyone attempt to ride roughshod all over me , in the way these despicable people are with you TM . As others have said , they have not got a leg to stand on . Please try to be strong i know it is not easy , you cannot be living on your nerves like you are now ..... Must be absolute torture , i really feel for you and your poor kitten being in this situation ... You have a lot of support in here , and although it doesn't help with finances , it can help with your well being ...


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> I am absolutely terrified. I'm sitting here shaking as I try to type this message


Don't be. You might think that easy for me to say but I have been through pretty much exactly the same thing and I can absolutely assure you that they haven't a leg to stand on. I do know how you're feeling; I was exchanging correspondence with their solicitor and was extremely fortunate to have the help of someone who who kept me sane and worded my response letters.

But it dragged on for months. My stomach was in knots the whole time, particularly mornings when the post arrived.

They dropped it in end (as I was promised they would) and your folk will too. They're trying it on, whether or not they yet realise it perhaps as a result of being misinformed by someone. All you need do in the meantime is hold your nerve as horrible as it is.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> I was exchanging correspondence with their solicitor and was extremely fortunate to have the help of someone who who kept me sane and worded my response letters.


At least these letters are not from a solicitor (yet), but ones they've typed up themselves. They are claiming I'm a business because I have a website and the advert (online) had my prefix on it. I have tried to ring Citizen's Advice but I just get a message saying 'we're busy try again later'. I wish I had someone who knew how word responses, I'm rather flailing around here.

A quick google indicates that these people are business owners themselves. I just wish they'd never darkened my door!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

So you have a website and a prefix. So what? I doubt that will fit any correct definitions of 'business'.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

They are talking absolute rubbish.Just keep on pushing they will get bored soon let them see you strong dont let them worry you in the slightest,tthey just prove they dont know jack.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> At least these letters are not from a solicitor (yet),


Even if they do go to a solicitor PLEASE keep in mind that a solicitor's letter is no different from any other letter. A solicitor is there to do as instructed by their client and they do just that in return for a fee. It doesn't automatically mean there's any merit. Letter tennis is just letter tennis no matter how impressive the headed paper.

Generally people who intend to file in court do so rather than engaging in petty argument outwith the system.


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## Squeaks (Oct 16, 2014)

I have nothing useful to add Tigermoon, other than I am absolutely fuming on your behalf. Please don't let them get you down. I think the CAB is definitely a good idea, please keep trying. 

Wish I knew someone in the legal trade who could help.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I've just reread their letter again and the cheeky ******** are saying that they contacted me for advice on the issue and that no advice was forthcoming, in fact my response was negative! That is a lie as they contacted me AFTER the op was done, so how could I advise them? In all they had contacted me three times since the kitten was purchased. Twice by email, telling me how well he'd settled in etc and in one described him as "the Purrfect Kitten". The third time was the phone call to tell me there was a problem, he'd been neutered and they were just about to pick him up.

I should be flattered that they think my website is professional .... I created it myself, using google to learn how to write HTML.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

TM, I have pm'd you.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

They really don't have a leg to stand on .. Let them take it to court .. It shows that they really don't give a **** about the kitten just the cost it has incured 

They know jack, he was a pet not a breeding cat.. 

Deep breath Hun


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> I've just reread their letter again and the cheeky ******** are saying that they contacted me for advice on the issue and that no advice was forthcoming, in fact my response was negative! That is a lie as they contacted me AFTER the op was done, so how could I advise them? In all they had contacted me three times since the kitten was purchased. Twice by email, telling me how well he'd settled in etc and in one described him as "the Purrfect Kitten". The third time was the phone call to tell me there was a problem, he'd been neutered and they were just about to pick him up.
> 
> I should be flattered that they think my website is professional .... I created it myself, using google to learn how to write HTML.


And have they detailed exactly how and when they contacted you? Can they do so? I bet not.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> And have they detailed exactly how and when they contacted you? Can they do so? I bet not.


No they just say that they contacted me to seek advice, no date given for this supposed contact.

If they had bothered to contact me I would have told them to wait while I researched it myself, then I would have gone back and told them that the vets I spoke to and the advice I found online ALL stated to wait. They are saying that they were complying with my contract that the kitten had to be neutered. Indeed it does but it states "before 7 months of age" they had him neutered before 6 months of age meaning they had a further 5 weeks before they were in breach of the contract and I would have waived that bit anyway so that we could follow the advice I'd been given. We could have also discussed the costs involved like adults.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

I've been following this thread and not posted until now, but really just wanted to post my support and say please don't give up breeding over this. If it were me I wouldn't have dreamt of putting the blame on you and demanding payment of the vets bills. This is a living animal we are talking about, not an inanimate object. 

Not all kitten buyers are like this - I had a kitten that developed and died from FIP and did not request anything from the breeder - why should I, it wasn't her fault, just a very unlucky event. 

All this over a retained testicle that they should have waited before operating on. I don't see how this would ever go as far as court and if it does it would surely go in your favour. I think you really have to get some proper legal advice or go to the CAB. Don't let it get to you, stay strong and calm and stand your ground.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I have also been following, hoping for a good outcome for you by now TM 
I agree with the others, stand your ground - they are just trying it on.
From memory JaimeandBree is a lawyer or solicitor - so sorry if this is completely wrong! But might be worth sending her a PM to help with your letters xx


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Tigermoon said:


> I've just reread their letter again and the cheeky ******** are saying that they contacted me for advice on the issue and that no advice was forthcoming, in fact my response was negative! That is a lie as they contacted me AFTER the op was done, so how could I advise them? In all they had contacted me three times since the kitten was purchased. Twice by email, telling me how well he'd settled in etc and in one described him as "the Purrfect Kitten". The third time was the phone call to tell me there was a problem, he'd been neutered and they were just about to pick him up.
> 
> I should be flattered that they think my website is professional .... I created it myself, using google to learn how to write HTML.


I would do everything by email or letter now,this can be proof of what has been said between both parties. Total chancers TM and if they are as much in the know as they like to think they are then they will know they aint got a cat in hells chance here.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> I would do everything by email or letter now,this can be proof of what has been said between both parties. Total chancers TM and if they are as much in the know as they like to think they are then they will know they aint got a cat in hells chance here.


By email - find out how to get a 'read' receipt. It depends on your software and ISP.

By mail - make sure they have to sign for the letter.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> By mail - make sure they have to sign for the letter.


No need and can be counter productive. Just take to the Post Office and ask for a Certificate of Posting. It records the date and time of posting along with the house number and postcode. It's acceptable proof of posting and will be 'deemed' delivered. Unwilling recipients don't get to refuse delivery as they can with signed for items.

Oh yes, forgot to mention - it's free


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I really do not think this can go to court, Tigermoon. Last year I explored all avenues to try to retrieve two of my cats who were not being given necessary veterinary care as agreed by the purchaser in writing. In the end I discovered that there was no guarantee I would be able to succed since there are so few sanctions with a small claims court. However, I did discover a great deal about the process. Both parties have to liaise in an attempt to resolve the dispute before any court hearing proceeds. 

The person making the complaint has to furnish all their evidence when they lodge that complaint and the defence does likewise when it is received.

As has been said all along these people have no case and that will be obvious when the papers are examined. That is why I do not think it will even progress that far unless they are very stupid. They cannot even furnish the evidence that they contacted you prior to proceeding with the operation. They clearly have no strategy at all.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

A business is a venue intended to make a profit.
You only need to show a judge the cost of breeding against the profits to show that breeding is nothing but a hobby, and an expensive hobby at that.

But it will never come to that.

They do not have a leg to stand on.
Don't let them upset you, and be VERY FIRM in your replies.

In fact, if I were you, I'd ask havoc to write your reply for you.
English is not my native tongue, and I am insufficiently versed in the intricacies of British law, otherwise I would do it for you. 

Havoc, are you a professional sollicitor?
If so, could you write a firm letter, implying that you are representing Tigermoon, telling them off in a legally convincing manner???


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm not a solicitor. However, Tigermoon is now in touch with help.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Hello everyone, I thought I would update you all on what has been going on with the case of the missing testicle, since it started back in January. The kitten had his op and came through fine which is the good news.

However for me the last few months have not been so smooth! As you may remember I'd received a couple of letters requesting money for both the operation and a refund on the kitten. By that stage I was a gibbering wreck, the thought of finding myself in court was terrifying. The fear of the unknown is strong and my visions of a wigged judge and two somewhat aggressive lawyers asking difficult questions loomed large in my mind, based entirely on my TV viewing experiences (The Bill, Cracker, Broadchurch etc). 

Luckily I was able to get some great advice and I was told that, although not pleasant to receive, letters like this from people or solicitors are no reason to panic. A solicitor is paid to send a letter and it has no more weight than any other you might receive. The fears I had regarding a court appearance were also eased when I was told there was a process to fulfil before court was reached, and that it wouldn't be anything like I was imagining. One of the most important things I learned was to remain calm, to not hastily write and post off a reply after receiving a letter, but instead to sit back and think carefully about what to write. Also to write as little as possible and not to get into a mud slinging match.

Over the last few months several letters have gone back and forth from myself and the kittens owners. The last of these was in April and so far I have heard nothing further.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

Sounds like whatever you have said in your letters has put them off or at least made them think twice. Good for you hun! Can't stand people who use bullying tactics to threaten people. At the end of the day, kitten left you with a clean bill of health. It is not your fault that they had to search for one of his pom poms!


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm pleased to see this update  thanks TM 

You may be interested in this thread ....
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/disappointed-with-my-kitten.353352/page-2

My response is on page 2. Although not regarding testicles, it may help give you confidence regarding how genuine caring homes feel towards their pets. My Timmy Tail has/had a health issues far more serious than a retained testicle and not once, *not ever*, did I consider asking for a refund.

Good luck xx


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Thank you for the update TM. I'm glad you got some good advice and were able to keep calm - I know I'd be a wreck too, thinking the worst. I hope that this is the end of it for you now and I'm glad to hear that the kitten is fine :Cat


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