# why are papers so important



## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

i recently got a puppy she is a cross i saw mum and dad and both r lovely
I think people need to wake up and get a reality check


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Hmm Welcome to PF - I think someone is particularly bored on this 1/2 term afternoon  Dont you have some homework to be doing?


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Not sure what you mean, wouldn't have papers (if you mean pedigree/KC registration) for a cross?

Welcome by the way!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

A reality check about what? Personally I have no 'issues' with a pup being purchased being a purebred dog or a crossbreed...as long as the pup has been bred from health tested parents by an ethical breeder and (in the case of the cross) the cross hasn't been between two breeds that will cause harm in the mating or birth processes.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Hmm..............popcorn anyone :001_rolleyes:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I think papers are very important. I only allow my dogs to read the Telegraph


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I think papers are very important. I only allow my dogs to read the Telegraph


Although the red tops are perfectly adequate for lining a whelping box.


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## Halifu (Jan 22, 2012)

It's one way of seeing where the dog your going to be investing a lot of time, money and love Into has come from


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

moonviolet said:


> Although the red tops are perfectly adequate for lining a whelping box.


Hey, nowt wrong with the stun. I have it on good authority they have a very good sports section.  although I'm not too sure what exactly my hubris calling sport.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

2nd of all im asking for a reason i have got a x and she is amazing puppy but on here ive read alot of people putting down a dog because its got no papers.


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## Retri (Feb 22, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> .
> 2nd of all im asking for a reason i have got a x and she is amazing puppy but on here ive read alot of people putting down a dog because its got no papers.


I have a crossbreed, I have never been put down for that, I think probably 50%+ members have....

Also she said homework not housework:skep:


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> 2nd of all im asking for a reason i have got a x and she is amazing puppy but on here ive read alot of people putting down a dog because its got no papers.


Whoa there hold off on the aggression. 
Where do you see on here about dogs being put down soley because they have no papers?
Papers matter to some people and not to others, no-one on here will suggest that your pup is in any way inferior to anyone else's, where or not you have papers is immaterial as long as you love your dog and it's healthy and happy who gives a stuff whether you have a bit of paper to go with your dog. I certainly don't.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> i recently got a puppy she is a cross i saw mum and dad and both r lovely
> I think people need to wake up and get a reality check


What are you on about? And what has housework got to do with anything? If you buy a pedigree dog, you should have pedigree papers. How else will you know it is a genuine pedigree dog and not a cross?

If you buy a cross you don't expect to have pedigree papers.

Any puppy is amazing, even a pure bred mongrel. I still don't know what you're on about.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Oh Milliepoochie, how DARE you leave your housework! Shame on you! WTF has housework gotta do with whether or not a dog has papers? 

I've not seen anyone on here putting down a dog because it has no papers. My dog has no papers unless you count his vaccination records and neither he or I have been made unwelcome here or made to feel inferior.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> 2nd of all im asking for a reason i have got a x and she is amazing puppy but on here ive read alot of people putting down a dog because its got no papers.


What breed is a X then? I've never heard of a X breed. I've heard of a 'cross' breed though. I've got a cross breed. She didn't come with papers either. That didn't bother me in the slightest. If you are wanting a public flaming and stoning ...carry on.

Or maybe you would like to introduce yourself properly, starting with 'Hi folks' my name is ...................................................


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> 2nd of all im asking for a reason i have got a x and she is amazing puppy but on here ive read alot of people putting down a dog because its got no papers.


As long as you are certain that you have in no way supported a BYB who has stuck two dogs together to make money without a thought for their health and welfare, your pup's parents have been health tested and the breeder has shown themselves to be ethical in all respects there is no need to worry. Folk on here care; they don't 'put down' a dog but do get dismayed about the supporting of BYBs because they have the welfare of dogs in mind.

ETA - that is assuming that you bought a pup; if from rescue then you wouldn't know!


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

So the next time I buy a pedigree dog I should tell the breeder I don't want the paperwork? :lol:

Go back to your homework. You don't want to get behind.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> i recently got a puppy she is a cross i saw mum and dad and both r lovely
> I think people need to wake up and get a reality check





Natzzhixon said:


> First off millie u maybe a slob and leave ur house work but in my house it gets done asap.
> 2nd of all im asking for a reason i have got a x and she is amazing puppy but on here ive read alot of people putting down a dog because its got no papers.


whatever your on can i have some please


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> First off millie u maybe a slob and leave ur house work but in my house it gets done asap.
> 2nd of all im asking for a reason i have got a x and she is amazing puppy but on here ive read alot of people putting down a dog because its got no papers.


Wow you do have a chip on your shoulder and some amazing people skills.

I do apologise BUT you join a forum and your first post is quite frankly very short, unpuctuated (as if you couldnt be bothered) and randomly picking on a very passionate topic (Banned on on PF)- Cross Breeds and not explaining why you have an issue? Plus as your a completely new member why would you have an issue with peoples views on putting to sleep cross breed / dog without papers on PF?

Your first post to me screamed something very similar to what a troll would write. Apologies!

Maybe in future you could explain your predicament slightly if you are looking for advice?

And if I were you I would get an idea of the forum / community / ethos of a place before you try making such judgments on places.

And thank You for the Slob comment -


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

I was reading a section on blue staffs and how much they cost as they went on it becamw heated over a staff not having kc papers


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

I dont think iv ever seen anyone slag off cross breeds for not having papers.... alot of talk about responsible breeding and health tests though..





But then you may get a different viewpoint from under a bridge, especially with all that shouting at billy goats.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Milliepoochie said:


> Wow you do have a chip on your shoulder and some amazing people skills.
> 
> I do apologise BUT you join a forum and your first post is quite frankly very short, unpuctuated (as if you couldnt be bothered) and randomly picking on a very passionate topic (Banned on on PF)- Cross Breeds and not explaining why you have an issue? Plus as your a completely new member why would you have an issue with peoples views on putting to sleeping cross breed dogs on PF?
> 
> ...


GET OFF AND DO YOUR HOUSEWORK!!!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Ya all havin fun?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> I was reading a section on blue staffs and how much they cost as they went on it becamw heated over a staff not having kc papers


This is because a staff is not a cross breed, its a staff, a breed thats heavily overbred and by people with little concern of the health implications to both mother and pups - no health checks and potentially breeding sickly puppies that will suffer either from poor health or poor temprement; over breeding the poor bitch and simply lining their own pockets.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> I was reading a section on blue staffs and how much they cost as they went on it becamw heated over a staff not having kc papers


I still don't know what that has to do with crossbreeds. If it is a pedigree dog, it should have papers. No papers mean a byb or puppy farmer. No doglover would support either. Nobody, but nobody, was having a go at the dog itself who has no control over the idiots who bred him.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> I was reading a section on blue staffs and how much they cost as they went on it becamw heated over a staff not having kc papers


Staffies are a purebred dog and should at least have a pedigree and be registered registered. The reason being that you can check health issues 
Staffordshire Bull Terriers U.K. Breed Council of G.B.and N.Ireland

Also, have you looked at the plight of the Staffy in this country?
Just look at any rescue, they have approx 80% Staffies


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I think papers are very important. I only allow my dogs to read the Telegraph


My dog refuses to read papers - he prefers to eat the crossword. I think it may be intellectual snobbery though as he was toilet trained onto the financial times...

On a serious note I own a crossbreed but both of his parents had the relevant health tests. If I was going to buy a pure breed I would certainly want one with "papers" if that is the best way to ensure that both parents have been health tested.

I am not anti cross-breeds, nor am I anti pure-breeds. I am, however, very opposed to irresponsible breeding (which happens in both cases) and before I take on the responsibility of a dog I want to know much more about the parents than "they are both lovely"


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Millie i appologise for miss reading...
Mine is a blue staff x and i personally believe that they were bread for the money 
I personally dont believe her temperament will b no diffrent i believe its how u raise ur puppu


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Did you do any research at all before buying your puppy?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Millie i appologise for miss reading...
> Mine is a blue staff x and i personally believe that they were bread for the money
> I personally dont believe her temperament will b no diffrent i believe its how u raise ur puppu


What is she crossed with? I think you have a lot of reading and researching to do.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Millie i appologise for miss reading...
> Mine is a blue staff x and i personally believe that they were bread for the money
> I personally dont believe her temperament will b no diffrent i believe its how u raise ur puppu


Have you any pictures of your girl?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> Millie i appologise for miss reading...
> Mine is a blue staff x and i personally believe that they were bread for the money
> I personally dont believe her temperament will b no diffrent i believe its how u raise ur puppu


Why did you choose a dog that you knew had been bred to make money as opposed to one bred for health and temperament?

I may be way off here but am feeling cynical and no doubt sound very rude (huge apologies if you are a genuine poster) but it's unusual to be unable to spell simple words or to use text speak but then have no dramas with words like temperament....


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## Halifu (Jan 22, 2012)

Sorry I must be thick can somebody tell me what a byb is


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Millie i appologise for miss reading...
> Mine is a blue staff x and i personally believe that they were bread for the money
> I personally dont believe her temperament will b no diffrent i believe its how u raise ur puppu


How a dog is brought up/treated is probably 99% of it's future behaviour, and to be honest Staffies are wonderful dogs.
Now calm down about it all and work out how to up load piccies, coz there nowt better than puppy pics of any breed or mix of breeds.  
Just put em on a different thread.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Halifu said:


> Sorry I must be thick can somebody tell me what a byb is


Back Yard Breeder


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Why did you choose a dog that you knew had been bred to make money as opposed to one bred for health and temperament?
> 
> I may be way off here but am feeling cynical and no doubt sound very rude (huge apologies if you are a genuine poster) but it's unusual to be unable to spell simple words or to use text speak but then have no dramas with words like temperament....


Possibly because once seen and held it's very difficult to walk away.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Ive know both parents of my puppy for 2 years 
Her dad has kc papers 
Her mum is a staff x mastive 
Her mums mum is a kc reg blue and her dad is a kc reg mastive 
Wich i have known since puppys 
I believe i have done enough homework on her family history 
I do have a picture of her


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Temperament is both nature and nurture. Not all one or the other. Doesnt matter how you raise a bloodhound, theyre going to want to use their nose. Doesnt matter how you raise a greyhound, theyre going to want to chase small furry things. Doesnt matter how well you socialize your working breed dog, same sex aggression can and does happen at maturity. Knowing the breed traits and if from a reputable breeder, knowing the traits of that line can only help you make informed, intelligent decisions of how best to train and manage your dog.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> Millie i appologise for miss reading...
> Mine is a blue staff x and i personally believe that they were bread for the money
> I personally dont believe her temperament will b no diffrent i believe its how u raise ur puppu


If you bought a puppy you know was bred solely for financial gain, you have supported a puppy farmer, which is what people get so worked up about. I am sure your dog is lovely and I hope you have no problems health wise nor temperament wise, but nobody will know until he gets older and you could have saved yourself a lot of heartache.

To a certain extent, temperament does depend on upbringing, but all dogs have character traits, just as all people do, and some of these traits need careful management.



Halifu said:


> Sorry I must be thick can somebody tell me what a byb is


Back yard breeder


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Halifu said:


> Sorry I must be thick can somebody tell me what a byb is


Back yard breeder.

Ie. someone who just throws their bitch with whatever other dog they can find, only doing it for the money, not giving a stuff about whether their bitch is right for breeding from, no health testing at all (probably hasn't even heard of such a thing) on either parent.


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## Halifu (Jan 22, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Back Yard Breeder


Ahh thank you


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Ive know both parents of my puppy for 2 years
> Her dad has kc papers
> Her mum is a staff x mastive
> Her mums mum is a kc reg blue and her dad is a kc reg mastive
> ...


Then her maternal grandam should have tests and her sire also?


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)




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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Here you go
Mastiff Health

Just so you know what to look out for in both the breeds you have in your girl


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

rona said:


> Here you go
> Mastiff Health
> 
> Just so you know what to look out for in both the breeds you have in your girl


Lol your to slow - the OP already knows about all this obviously.

They done enough research because they knew the parents since puppies duhhh 

On that note I am off to stare at my filthy house and hope it cleans itself


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Milliepoochie said:


> Lol your to slow - the OP already knows about all this obviously.
> 
> They done enough research because they knew the parents since puppies duhhh
> 
> On that note I am off to stare at my filthy house and hope it cleans itself


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

For someone studying hospitality, you really are rather rude.

An SBT x Mastiff could very well grow up to be deemed a pit bull type.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> Lol your to slow - the OP already knows about all this obviously.
> 
> They done enough research because they knew the parents since puppies duhhh
> 
> On that note I am off to stare at my filthy house and hope it cleans itself


I actually believe that this poster is genuine and could be open to information if given in the right way.
That's what this forums about isn't it? 
To chat, help and inform?

I know they didn't start well but they are still here and have apologized, even tried to make an album, so must be intending to stay


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Milliepoochie said:


> Lol your to slow - the OP already knows about all this obviously.
> 
> They done enough research because they knew the parents since puppies duhhh
> 
> On that note I am off to stare at my filthy house and hope it cleans itself


It doesn't work; I've been staring at mine for years and the only thing that has changed is the dust and dog hairs! More of them every day, and I haven't put them there.

I've even tried twitching my nose like that woman on Bewitched, but I can't quite get it right. Maybe I should stop staring at the dust and go in front of a mirror to practice


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Now has a picture of their lovely dog on their profile


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Welcome by the way


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Do people really care that much about 'papers' then?? (I didnt know!).
I have a crossbreed and 2 pedigrees but I didnt bother getting papers for either of them. I dont plan to breed or show and frankly can do without another piece of paper to lose (like I lost the microchip info and several pet vaccination records!!).


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> On that note I am off to stare at my filthy house and hope it cleans itself


:lol::lol::lol:

Go have a look on the "lazy housekeeping" thread, at the link I put on - come on admit it thats your house isn't


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> It doesn't work; I've been staring at mine for years and the only thing that has changed is the dust and dog hairs! More of them every day, and I haven't put them there.
> 
> I've even tried twitching my nose like that woman on Bewitched, but I can't quite get it right. Maybe I should stop staring at the dust and go in front of a mirror to practice


My friend embroidered a plaque for me that says: "_Dust is a protective covering for furniture"_. My furniture is always very well protected!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

OP
Is the thread you are referring to from 2008?

I think you will find that most of those people have now left the forum and it is a very different place than it was back then.

Most of us are pretty reasonable these days. Though like with all areas of life, you'll find a few that aren't


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Do people really care that much about 'papers' then?? (I didnt know!).
> I have a crossbreed and 2 pedigrees but I didnt bother getting papers for either of them. I dont plan to breed or show and frankly can do without another piece of paper to lose (like I lost the microchip info and several pet vaccination records!!).


It's not the papers it's the information, mainly health information that you can get from them.
If you have no history from your dog, how do you know that there isn't a hereditary issue?
If they are rescue then that's different


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Yes pictures now up loaded
And to inform people byb dont have there dogs checked by vets they just constanly breed there dogs
My dogs mum was bread to make money she then after her 1st litter had her neutered this doesnt mean she loves her dog ne more
Ive checked internet millions of times looking at staffx mastive 
And ne staff mastive and various other dog can fall into pit type.
Ive had her insured microchipped and her injections up to date.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Yes pictures now up loaded
> And to inform people byb dont have there dogs checked by vets they just constanly breed there dogs
> My dogs mum was bread to make money she then after her 1st litter had her neutered this doesnt mean she loves her dog ne more
> Ive checked internet millions of times looking at staffx mastive
> ...


No puppy farmers keep breeding their dogs.
BYB are people who either through ignorance or lack of care, breed from their pet. They may love that pet but they haven't looked into the possible consequences of their actions normally


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Yes pictures now up loaded
> And to inform people byb dont have there dogs checked by vets they just constanly breed there dogs
> My dogs mum was bread to make money she then after her 1st litter had her neutered this doesnt mean she loves her dog ne more
> Ive checked internet millions of times looking at staffx mastive
> ...


The concern isnt so much as with whether or not she was bred lovingly or not, or whether the vets "checked them out" its more to do with health tests - these are for hip displasia through hipscoring, eye faults - not something a vet can just look at and see - ensuring a good score from both parents regardless of pure breed or not can mean the difference between a healthy dog and one who starts to develop genetic illnesses such as hip displasia.

But whats done is done, its just worth knowing for future. My own dog isnt from health tested parents, nor does he have papers, as like most people I was ignorant to the facts - although his breed doesnt require any tests, but in the future it is something I would definatly be looking for.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Mine is a blue staff x and i personally believe that they were bread for the money
> I personally dont believe her temperament will b no diffrent i believe its how u raise ur puppu


they aren`t `bred` to make money , greedy breeders choose to sometimes charge more on blue pups and have folks believe that they are `rare` blue pups are worth no more than any other different coloured pup in the same litter. these are the type of breeders i`d advise you NOT to go to.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

I dont think its down to ignorance i think its down to having a heart.
You see a puppy and u fall in love with it u dont care were its from u just know its right for u 
I waited 7 yrs to find the right puppy and i never planned on getting a dog but i fell in love with her.


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## KiriGirl (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi,

As your pup is a crossbreed, don't worry about it 

"Papers" if I'm right in thinking are the usual Kennel Club papers you would get if you bought a Kennel Club registered pedigree.

As long as you viewed the parents of your pup and they were both healthy (physically and with a good temperament) and obviously weren't related in any way and you were happy with the "breeders" then thats the most important thing.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> I dont think its down to ignorance i think its down to having a heart.
> You see a puppy and u fall in love with it u dont care were its from u just know its right for u
> I waited 7 yrs to find the right puppy and i never planned on getting a dog but i fell in love with her.


OK then, for me it was ignorance. I knew nothing of health tests? I too thought papers and registration of pure breeds was for "shows" only. I had no idea that pedigrees should be more expensive cos the tests and checks that SHOULD be done to ensure healthy litters cost money, while hobby breeders charge the same without this cost....

I have known dog lovers not buy VERY cute dogs that broke their hearts because they didnt want to fund a puppy farmer, to help keep his dirty business going - they have hearts but their heads kept them from supporting a cruel activity. The greater good is sometimes required.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Yes both mum dad and grandparents are lovely natured dogs


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> I dont think its down to ignorance i think its down to having a heart.
> You see a puppy and u fall in love with it *u dont care were its from* u just know its right for u
> I waited 7 yrs to find the right puppy and i never planned on getting a dog but i fell in love with her.


But that is exactly the point people are trying to make on this thread.

You should care where your puppy has come from... how can you not?  You're investing the next 10-15 years of your life on this dog, surely you owe it to her and yourself to ensure you know where she has come from and the background of her breeding?

It's people "not caring" enough about their pup's start in life that allows puppy farms and BYBs to thrive. Ignorance is no excuse


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

The town im from blue staffs are not rare infact there the most common dog here. 
U can pick a blue staff up here for 150. 
I knew of helth checks but as u say fort they were for show dogs.


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## Tinkle (Mar 3, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> I think papers are very important. I only allow my dogs to read the Telegraph


 SNORT  I really did lol at my desk then and I am doing very important work


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I would stop giving your dog ice cream if I were you. :thumbup1:


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

KiriGirl said:


> Hi,
> 
> As your pup is a crossbreed, don't worry about it
> 
> ...


No, that's not the most important thing at all  <resisting the urge to bang head off wall here>

How can you tell just by looking at them (the parents) that they're healthy? How do you know there aren't underlying health issues? How do you know there aren't hereditary diseases that the puppies could go on to suffer from?

You can't possibly tell all that just from looking.

How can you tell, again just from looking, that the parents aren't related? Again, you can't. It's impossible.

*That* is why papers are important. KC ones and health test certificates (not a "health check" from the vets).


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> The town im from blue staffs are not rare infact there the most common dog here.
> U can pick a blue staff up here for 150.
> I knew of helth checks but as u say fort they were for show dogs.


they aren`t more than likely well bred at £150.
health tests aren`t just for show dogs. responsible breeders carry out those tests regardless of whether their dogs are show dogs or not.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Its not a excuse its a reason
If u went to the shelter to buy a pup u wouldnt know.this information but it wouldnt stopyou walking out with the dog u want.
The reason so many dogs r in kennels is because people r more worried about were it came from than.the actual dog itself..


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

That's a very good point. Everything is in the Finnish language and I can't read or understand a single word of anything that's been wtitten or printed.

All I know is that I own two halves of two Dogs but it doesn't exactly say which halves are mine.

Knowing my luck it will be the sh1tty end!:001_rolleyes:


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

The reason i know there not related is 1 both grand parents have kc papers one is a staff one is a mastive.
Dad of my puppy also has kc papers. 
The only dog who hasnt got papers is my pup and its mother.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> The reason so many dogs r in kennels is because people r more worried about were it came from than.the actual dog itself..


Dont you think indiscriminate, careless breeding might have a tiny bit to do with it?

I have a house full of rescues and someone elses sloppy seconds. I did not line the pockets of any irresponsible person when acquiring any of them.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Its not a excuse its a reason
> If u went to the shelter to buy a pup u wouldnt know.this information but it wouldnt stopyou walking out with the dog u want.
> The reason so many dogs r in kennels is because people r more worried about were it came from than.the actual dog itself..


But by taking a shelter rescue pup you are freeing up a rescue space for another dog and not feeding / supporting the greedy pockets of a Back Yard Breeder who care very little for the pups they bred. Afterall I doubt they would give much support / help and wouldnt take all the pups back if owners had problems inthe future.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> Its not a excuse its a reason
> If u went to the shelter to buy a pup u wouldnt know.this information but it wouldnt stopyou walking out with the dog u want.
> The reason so many dogs r in kennels is because people r more worried about were it came from than.the actual dog itself..


No, but you would be rescuing, not giving money to BYBs and encouraging them.

I think that the opposite is true about why there are so many dogs in kennels, I really care about where my dog is from; waited over 10 years until circumstances were right to have the dog that I wanted, and am waiting for dog number two at present for which I have been on a waiting list since around Feb time and I should have him (all being well) in November. People who plan for a dog aren't going to give them up too easily I wouldn't have thought - although of course, some do. Shelters are full of dogs bought or bred on a whim by people who don't put in the required time and effort in the main.

It is offensive to suggest that I don't care about my dog as he has 'papers'.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Oh and my dog loves ice cream. 
She.gets treated to one every now and again and the bonus for her is my ice cream lady is.so in love with her she gets it free.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> The town im from blue staffs are not rare infact there the most common dog here.
> U can pick a blue staff up here for 150.
> I knew of helth checks but as u say fort they were for show dogs.


Have a look at the doodles & poos, they are crossbred but loads of breeders do testing.

Labradoodle Trust l Health Information

Health Testing - The Cockapoo Club of GB - CCGB
It's about health not temperament.
Good joints, good eyesight and trying to make sure your/my beloved dog doesn't suffer some time in the future


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Its not a excuse its a reason
> If u went to the shelter to buy a pup u wouldnt know.this information but it wouldnt stopyou walking out with the dog u want.
> The reason so many dogs r in kennels is because people r more worried about were it came from than.the actual dog itself..


The dog itself is why we worry.
I just hope yours doesn't suffer from a hereditary problem in the future.
You would be devastated.

PS. I can't see your pictures for some reason 

Can others see them?


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

The owner of my puppys mum only sold her 4 puppys to friends as she wanted to ensure they all went to good homes. As unfortunately were i come from to many people use them as status. 
Im suggesting u love ur dog ne less but im also getting across i dont love.mine ne less
This may sound.wrong but.i.personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue center as i have 3 young children and have to put.there safety first. 
I mo staffs r realiable and nanny dogs but ive also seen the damage one can do


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> The owner of my puppys mum only sold her 4 puppys to friends as she wanted to ensure they all went to good homes. As unfortunately were i come from to many people use them as status.
> Im suggesting u love ur dog ne less but im also getting across i dont love.mine ne less
> This may sound.wrong but.i.personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue center as i have 3 young children and have to put.there safety first.
> I mo staffs r realiable and nanny dogs but ive also seen the damage one can do


You sound so sensible that I can't understand why you can't seem to grasp the point people are making.
We all believe your dog is a beautiful loving girl.

We just hope she' as healthy as she seems


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> The owner of my puppys mum only sold her 4 puppys to friends as she wanted to ensure they all went to good homes. As unfortunately were i come from to many people use them as status.
> Im suggesting u love ur dog ne less but im also getting across i dont love.mine ne less
> This may sound.wrong but.i.personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue center as i have 3 young children and have to put.there safety first.
> I mo staffs r realiable and nanny dogs but ive also seen the damage one can do


I don't think anyone thought that you love yours any less; just pointing out that those of us who do worry about where their dogs come from don't care more about that than the actual dog as you suggested.

The reason that everyone is here is because we all care about our (and other peoples') dogs regardless of where they are from and that is why feelings run high in these threads.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> This may sound.wrong but.i.personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue center as i have 3 young children and have to put.there safety first.


Yes, that is wrong.
You think just because a dog is raised with children it wont bite? You have a lot to learn about dog behavior and preventing dog bites in kids.

Excuse me now while I go tell our dogs rescued as adults that theyre a menace to our children.


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## KiriGirl (Jun 8, 2012)

Coffee said:


> No, that's not the most important thing at all  <resisting the urge to bang head off wall here>
> 
> How can you tell just by looking at them (the parents) that they're healthy? How do you know there aren't underlying health issues? How do you know there aren't hereditary diseases that the puppies could go on to suffer from?
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree with all of that and "papers" could also mean health certs from the vets. But I'm talking about avoiding backyard breeders aswell, I'm not advocating it! Even if you adopt a dog/puppy from a rescue they are mainly crossbreeds and who knows where that animal has come from. There are always "risks" when buying any crossbreed but if you have a certain amount of knowledge of where to go and what to look out for then surely that limits that risk?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> Its not a excuse its a reason
> If u went to the shelter to buy a pup u wouldnt know.this information but it wouldnt stopyou walking out with the dog u want.
> The reason so many dogs r in kennels is because people r more worried about were it came from than.the actual dog itself..


What utter rubbish. The reason there are so many dogs in rescue, especially staffies, is because of back yard breeders and puppy farmers who breed solely for the money, sell them cheap to whoever has the money and never give a toss.

So people can buy a dog, decide it is too much work and dump it in a rescue. Or they can find it has serious health issues and can't afford the vet bills, or don't want to pay them, and dump it in a rescue.

That is why people are so against anyone buying from a byb or puppy farmer. We want to see these callous morons out of business, and that won't happen while there is still a demand for the puppies because greedy people think they are getting a bargain.


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## Halifu (Jan 22, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Its not a excuse its a reason
> If u went to the shelter to buy a pup u wouldnt know.this information but it wouldnt stopyou walking out with the dog u want.
> The reason so many dogs r in kennels is because people r more worried about were it came from than.the actual dog itself..


I'm a bit  with the last sentence ?
Surely if people have gone to the trouble of researching the lines of the prospective pup/dog via The Papers and selecting breeders wisely why would they then give the dog up
To the dog pound?


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Yes but a point im getting across is i have a friend whos got a german shephers she payed a fortune for him his breeders had hip scores and at 7.his hips have now gon3


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

And u can say what you like but its.not.just byb whos pups end up in shelters they have kc reg ones there 2
I didnt get my dog for cheep but i wasnt over charged either. 
And as u put it this way im gona put it my way
Ive cut out.the.middle man and stopped my dog potentially going through hell and back.
I personally wouldnt pay for.a.kc reg as i have no intention of breeding i got a.pup for a fily dog.


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## Halifu (Jan 22, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> The owner of my puppys mum only sold her 4 puppys to friends as she wanted to ensure they all went to good homes. As unfortunately were i come from to many people use them as status.
> Im suggesting u love ur dog ne less but im also getting across i dont love.mine ne less
> This may sound.wrong but.i.personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue center "as i have 3 young children and have to put.there safety first. "
> I mo staffs r realiable and nanny dogs but ive also seen the damage one can do


 surely even more reason to want to know background?


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> I personally wouldnt pay for.a.kc reg as i have no intention of breeding i got a.pup for a fily dog.


my dogs are k.c reg and i`ve never bred a litter , ever.
so what makes you think that every person that owns a k.c reg dog , has one for breeding ? that isn`t the case at all.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> And u can say what you like but its.not.just byb whos pups end up in shelters they have kc reg ones there 2
> I didnt get my dog for cheep but i wasnt over charged either.
> And as u put it this way im gona put it my way
> Ive cut out.the.middle man and stopped my dog potentially going through hell and back.
> I personally wouldnt pay for.a.kc reg as i have no intention of breeding i got a.pup for a fily dog.


Some BYBs churn out KC registered dogs too. I paid for a KC reg puppy not because I want to breed (he is endorsed anyway), but because I wanted a dog from health tested parents, bred by someone who knows the breed very well and who prioritises health and temperament over money. I also know that I will get a lifetime of support and advice and if the very worst were to happen and he needed rehoming, they would take him back. To me, paying for that is an investment as opposed to being overcharged.

I got mine purely as a companion too.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Not all but most people with kc reg dogs breed.


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

Not everyone who gets KC dogs breed or show them.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Not all but most people with kc reg dogs breed.


not the case at all. and even people without k.c papers breed


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Not all but most people with kc reg dogs breed.


With all due respect, that is like saying all people with Staffords participate in dog fighting


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

If I read this thread correctly you have a staffie x mastiff 3/4 staffie 1/4 mastiff which means you have 2 sources of stafford genes with would increase the chance of any hereditary conditions associated with Staffies.


A good breeders would test for a number of hereditary eye conditions, BVA eye screening scheme and a DNA test for hereditary cataracts. There there is a DNA test for a hereditary neurometabolic disorder that affects the central nervous system. 

I do hope your dog has a long happy and healthy life where possible i try not to leave things to chance.


And there is the possibility of colour dilution alopecia of course being that she is blue, with symptoms including hair loss, dry skin, raised bumps recurring from the recurring infection folliculitis,requiring antibiotics, the hair may grow back slowly or may even remain bald and of course if it doesn't it will need extra care.....


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Personally i dont care were my dog comes from
I wouldnt send a child away coz i had bad legs i wouldnt.do that to my dog either 
I got her maybe not the right way 
And no dogs from rescue homes r not menacing i had one myself but i personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue home around my children as u dont.no what they personally have been through or what sets them off 
May sound wrong to sum people but as i said i saw the damage on a 9 year old girl from a rescue staff.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> *Personally i dont care were my dog comes from*


whats the whole point of this thread then



Natzzhixon said:


> I got her maybe not the right way
> And no dogs from rescue homes r not menacing i had one myself but i personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue home around my children as u dont.no what they personally have been through or what sets them off
> May sound wrong to sum people but as i said i saw the damage on a 9 year old girl from a rescue staff.


so would you have ruled out a stafford puppy for the same reason , just because it happened to come from `rescue` ?
but then on the same token , you go out and buy a crossbreed , without little research , no health tests , admitting she were bred for money , little consideration gone into how large she could turn out to be or the traits she could inherit from both breeds and take the pup home with your 3 kids


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> And u can say what you like but its.not.just byb whos pups end up in shelters they have kc reg ones there 2
> I didnt get my dog for cheep but i wasnt over charged either.
> And as u put it this way im gona put it my way
> Ive cut out.the.middle man and stopped my dog potentially going through hell and back.
> I personally wouldnt pay for.a.kc reg as i have no intention of breeding i got a.pup for a fily dog.


My dogs are not only kc registered but they are from champion show lines. I paid a lot of money for them because I wanted the right health checks, the right bone structure and the right temperament. I would never breed nor show. You talk as though only show dogs can get hip dysplasia.

Low hip scores in the parents reduce the chance of the puppies having hip dysplasia; they do not eliminate it altogether. Care must still be taken to not over exercise when growing, to not let them slip or climb stairs or jump into cars.

Nobody wants the heartache of a crippled dog, of seeing their dog in pain, so they minimise the risk by doing all the right things.

Doesn't mean your dog is any less important, just means he is more at risk than a properly health tested puppy.



Natzzhixon said:


> Not all but most people with kc reg dogs breed.


That is absolute twaddle.



Natzzhixon said:


> Personally i dont care were my dog comes from
> I wouldnt send a child away coz i had bad legs i wouldnt.do that to my dog either
> I got her maybe not the right way
> And no dogs from rescue homes r not menacing i had one myself but i personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue home around my children as u dont.no what they personally have been through or what sets them off
> May sound wrong to sum people but as i said i saw the damage on a 9 year old girl from a rescue staff.


At least we agree on something, though I wouldn't limit it to staffies. I would not have a rescued dog of any breed with a child in the house.


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

diablo said:


> whats the whole point of this thread then


Could't Agree more :001_rolleyes:


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Not all but most people with kc reg dogs breed.


What an absolute load of rubbish. What evidence do you have to back up that ridiculous statement?



Natzzhixon said:


> *Personally i dont care were my dog comes from*
> I wouldnt send a child away coz i had bad legs i wouldnt.do that to my dog either
> I got her maybe not the right way
> And no dogs from rescue homes r not menacing i had one myself but i personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue home around my children as u dont.no what they personally have been through or what sets them off
> May sound wrong to sum people but as i said i saw the damage on a 9 year old girl from a rescue staff.


That is pretty obvious judging from your posts. Can you not see that you are being slightly hypocritical in saying that and then in the next breath saying you wouldn't have a rescue staffie because you wouldn't be able to trust it? My point is, by "not caring" where your dog comes from, who's to say the parents are not both of unpleasant temperaments and should never have been bred from, making your puppy as likely to possibly develop aggression problems as the rescues you say you wouldn't have?

And what on earth do bad legs have to do with anything?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

diablo said:


> whats the whole point of this thread then


To have a bash at KC registered/pure bred dogs and post a load of made up crap about them and dogs in general?


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Personally i dont care were my dog comes from
> I wouldnt send a child away coz i had bad legs i wouldnt.do that to my dog either
> I got her maybe not the right way
> And no dogs from rescue homes r not menacing i had one myself but i personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue home around my children as u dont.no what they personally have been through or what sets them off
> May sound wrong to sum people but as i said i saw the damage on a 9 year old girl from a rescue staff.


There is so much wrong with your thought processes I dont even know where to start.

People with hereditary genetic conditions health test as well. Many people of certain ethnicities who are RESPONSIBLE and care what kind of life their children are going to have, do test themselves to see if they are carriers of potentially devastating illnesses.

And now add in that staffies are fine as long as theyre not rescued staffies - those are the ones its fine to let rot in kennels. Lovely. Makes you wonder why you even like the breed.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> There is so much wrong with your thought processes I dont even know where to start.
> 
> People with hereditary genetic conditions health test as well. Many people of certain ethnicities who are RESPONSIBLE and care what kind of life their children are going to have, do test themselves to see if they are carriers of potentially devastating illnesses.
> 
> And now add in that staffies are fine as long as theyre not rescued staffies - those are the ones its fine to let rot in kennels. Lovely. Makes you wonder why you even like the breed.


It is a queer idea from someone who has just bought a staffie cross, isn't it? "I saw what one did to a child, etc............" So what it just happened to be a staffie, so they are all the same. To feel like that then not even check your pup's history is a little bizarre.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I would never buy a dog without papers...... 

If I was to have a dog without papers it would be a rescue...not one I just bought from a Mate/BYB


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## Bella Beagle Mum (Jan 24, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Not all but *most people with kc reg dogs breed*.


What utter rubbish!!!! The fact you made this statement leaves me speachless 
All I can assume is that you are just typing the first thing that comes into your head!



Natzzhixon said:


> Personally i dont care were my dog comes from
> *I wouldnt send a child away coz i had bad legs i wouldnt.do that to my dog either *
> .


Nor would I but........If your child had bad legs in this country, you wouldn;'t have to pay thousands over that childs life to ensure they were pain free and had a decent quality of life..............You will with a dog. Even with insurance cost can spiral out of control. What if your vet asks for payment upfront? What if the treatment exceeds the insurance limit....?

Maybe it's time to remove those rose tinted specs and joint the real world with the rest of us.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Not all but most people with kc reg dogs breed.


I think you will find this is wrong. I don't know the figures but I bet if you asked all the people you meet with pedigree dogs if they show or breed, most will say no.



Natzzhixon said:


> Personally i dont care were my dog comes from
> I wouldnt send a child away coz i had bad legs i wouldnt.do that to my dog either
> I got her maybe not the right way
> And no dogs from rescue homes r not menacing i had one myself but i personally wouldnt get a staff from a rescue home around my children as u dont.no what they personally have been through or what sets them off
> May sound wrong to sum people but as i said i saw the damage on a 9 year old girl from a rescue staff.


I can see where you are coming from and you are to be applauded for your devotion to your dog. I hope you never have to face it.
Also I understand why you felt you needed to get a pup from parents that you knew the temperament of.

The people who bred her probably loved their bitch, but the way you suggest they went about breeding is not ideal.

Just love you dog and enjoy her 

Maybe come back to this thread when you don't feel so defensive, pick out the constructive replies and see if you can view some of what's been said with a more logical head on


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I can't get into your album to see your pictures.
In your profile picture she looks a real darling.
Any chance of putting some pics on a thread so I can see?

*Pretty Please *


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

No do agree with alot of whats being said it is important to u lot personally were ur dogs come from and as for cummin bk i joined to learn not to b wich hunted i asked a simple question. And frankly its been over exagerated n i will 100 percent stick with what i believe untill explained other wise no one on here has put it in a way that doesnt feel personally like a attach

I may not have ur knowledge But that doesnt make my opinion any less.than urz.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> I would never buy a dog without papers......
> 
> If I was to have a dog without papers it would be a rescue...not one I just bought from a Mate/BYB


I agree 100% - I would never ever hand over money to someone selling unregistered un-heritaged checked pups.

Whilst I know when we get another dog I wouldnt pay £XXX for a pup when theres so many in rescue.

Going the rescue route doesn't limit you in choice of breed and you can get some fantastic support advice through specialist breed rescues.

My girl is a mongrel through and through and im the first to admit could have goodness knows what health issues as she gets older. I wouldnt change her for the world but I know she came from very very dodgy breeding!


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> No do agree with alot of whats being said it is important to u lot personally were ur dogs come from and as for cummin bk i joined to learn not to b wich hunted i asked a simple question. And frankly its been over exagerated n i will 100 percent stick with what i believe untill explained other wise no one on here has put it in a way that doesnt feel personally like a attach
> 
> I may not have ur knowledge But that doesnt make my opinion any less.than urz.


I'm afraid if you post as aggressively as you did in the beginning ( a mod removed your second post because it was so aggressive) you can hardly expect a kid gloves ,sugar coated response.

Had you said something to the effect that you didn't understand why many people valued pedigrees and would appreciate it being explained you would have received a calmer more polite response to match your tone.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Rox age 4 month.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> No do agree with alot of whats being said it is important to u lot personally were ur dogs come from and as for cummin bk i joined to learn not to b wich hunted i asked a simple question. And frankly its been over exagerated n i will 100 percent stick with what i believe untill explained other wise no one on here has put it in a way that doesnt feel personally like a attach
> 
> I may not have ur knowledge But that doesnt make my opinion any less.than urz.


I have certainly not meant to attack you and if you reread your own posts the way in which you have worded them certainly could be construed as an attack on anyone who has obtained a dog in any way different to the way in which you obtained yours. That is why people have responded as they have.

I am sure you haven't meant to attack anyone either as you feel so strongly about such things, but from your posts I could assume that you think that I am someone who cares where my dog comes from, but not about the dog himself; who would be more likely to give him up than someone who obtains a dog from a BYB; who has a KC reg dog to breed from him.


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## boxermadsam (Nov 30, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Not all but most people with kc reg dogs breed.


OP, the last thing I want to do is make you feel 'picked on' but you have no idea how wrong this statement is, really.

I was a member of a Yahoo group dedicated to my breed, Boxers, that had a few hundred members. A huge percentage of those members had KC reg dogs, I think about 12 were actual breeders. My dogs are both KC reg, neither has been bred from. I will never breed, at least not unless I won the lottery and could pay a team of experts to do everything for me just allowing me to be responsible for the nice bits, like cuddling puppies LOL

Papers were /are of no real interest to me as such, but I wanted good, responsible, ethical breeders who bred for health and temperament. When you buy from this type of breeder papers come with the puppy, it's as simple as that. There is no 'snobbery' involved.

Anyway, apologies for my waffling and welcome to the forum. I am a newbie too and have found everyone friendly and welcoming.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok... Put it this way. Would u breed puppies which u knew for sure were going To suffer hip displasia... Hd can cause a lot of pain for the dog and result in quite major operations to help alleviate this pain?

Most ppl would say no. Of course not.

Would u do it if there was a 70% chance. Or 50% chance. Again no cos no one wants to see a dog suffer.

By breeding un tested dogs this is what breeders are doing. They have no idea of the odds their pairing could result in. Two seemingly healthy dogs could produce a litter of puppies doomed to suffer by the time they are as young as 2.

Why take the risk when tests are available to prevent it. That's why people health test and why buyers want to see it happen. To avoid dogs suffering.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> View attachment 91284
> 
> Rox age 4 month.


She has amazing eyes


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Just my two cents....

If I was buying a pup from a breeder I would insist on "papers". 

For a pedigree dog this would be to check out the pedigree, rule out close inbreeding, to research the line (looking for any health, temperament or or other issues), and to be able to check health tests.

This is more of an issue with some health tests than others. With some tests simply if the dog is "clear" then the pups will not inherit the disease, so you only need the results of the parents. 
With issues like dysplasia the mode of inheritence is not fully understood - so the more info the better. If I were buying a breed known to have problems with hip dysplasia I would want to check out the scores not just of the parents but of grandparents, and any other close family members.

KC reg also proves (as far as possible) that the dog is what the breeder claims it is. Of course there are "bad" breeders KC registering pups; but I would wager there are far more that don't! And it seems hard to find good breeders that don't KC reg!

If I were buying a straight cross, like a labradoodle, then obviously I would not get KC reg. However I would still expect the parent dogs to be KC reg and I would like to see their info for the same reasons above - to check out the lines and to verify health testing.

There is a huge difference between getting a pup from a "good" breeder, "bad" breeder or rescue.

With a good breeder you increase your chances of getting a well bred dog, who has good conformation, temperament and health. The money you pay is spent on proving their dogs conformation, or their working ability, on health testing and proper care, etc.

With a "bad" breeder you have a much higher risk of getting a dog with poor conformation, poor temperament or poor health. Your money simply buys them a new TV, and may well encourage them to breed further litters.

With a rescue - of course you don't always know where the dog comes from or if it will have any health problems. Temperament however can be assessed - as long as you go to a decent rescue dogs will be fully assessed and matched to suitable homes. Even better you could go to a rescue that uses foster homes, so they know very well how a dog behaves in a normal home environment.

The biggest difference between getting a rescue as opposed to a pup from a breeder is that rescuing saves lives. Yes you still take a risk with the health of the dog, but that means one less dog put to sleep this week. And the money you pay for the rescue dog goes towards saving more lives.

Of course it is hard to walk away from a cute puppy - which is why a lot of us wouldn't even visit a litter until we had checked out the breeder. I personally wouldn't put myself in that position.

As for the idea that most people with KC reg dogs breed - that is hilarious! Vast numbers of pups are KC reg every year - we'd be overrun by dogs if every one of them was being bred from!


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

1st the post removed wasnt nothing bad and i did appologise for as i had read another post wrong 
No i was asking y papers were so important n then felt i had to defend myself and i only wish to prove just because its a pedigree dont make u love it more. 
Doesnt.mean its less likely to attach either 
Also u can kc re ne dog.pedigree or not


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Also u can kc re ne dog.pedigree or not


you can`t k.c reg any dog.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

My rescue (dogs trust) girl Pepsi, a Rhodesian Ridgeback cross was the best dog with children anyone could have had, it was a shame I didn't have any! She was fantastic with them, yet I got her from rescue aged about 10months.

Most people with KC registered dogs don't breed them! They do, however, take part in things like agility (even cross breeds have to be on the KC register (working) to take part in KC events). Having a pedigree means you can check on the dogs in the pedigree and health tests etc. I can look my collie's ancestry back to around 1900 - and also my other breeds. They've all been bred by 'reputable' people - by the way 'hobby breeders' are reputable breeders, they are the best really as they don't breed as a way of making money, but as a sideline, as a hobby and usually part of their other dog activities, of working or showing. They usually carry out the health checks and provide full information etc and choose breeding dogs wisely....


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

In the giant scheme of things, the papers -assuming we are talking KC registration and pedigree papers- themselves arent that important. They are merely part of the package that makes a breeder responsible, and ethical, and not just putting a dog with a bitch, having puppies and selling them for the greatest profit available.

There is far more to being a good breeder, than just registering the puppies.

The reason that so many dogs languish in rescues is because far too many breed, far too many people buy because puppies are cute and they *want* one there and then, and no one considers the consequences of these two actions.

Decent breeders provide a lifetime backup, and will take a pup back at any point.

For me, where a puppy comes from is vital, as i would not like to line the pockets of anyone who has no respect for the lives they have intentionally bought into the world. Responsibility does not end when money changes hand; at least it shouldn't.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> 1st the post removed wasnt nothing bad and i did appologise for as i had read another post wrong
> No i was asking y papers were so important n then felt i had to defend myself and i only wish to prove just because its a pedigree dont make u love it more.
> Doesnt.mean its less likely to attach either
> Also u can kc re ne dog.pedigree or not


Just love her eyes, are her ears always at that angle?
Makes her look so cute!!! Big tough dog looking cute 

You can't KC reg a cross, there is another registry, but it does hold the same amount of information on health issues


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## Bella Beagle Mum (Jan 24, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> 1st the post removed wasnt nothing bad and i did appologise for as i had read another post wrong
> No i was asking y papers were so important n then felt i had to defend myself and* i only wish to prove just because its a pedigree dont make u love it more. *
> Doesnt.mean its less likely to attach either
> Also u can kc re ne dog.pedigree or not


Not one person on this whole thread, that I can see, has disagreed with this. Many people are simply very passionate about the health and well being (including breeding) of all dogs, not just their own.

You asked why papers are important and people answered you........you are the one who seems to be talking about "who loves their dogs more". I understand that this may be unintentional, but that is how its coming across.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> 1st the post removed wasnt nothing bad and i did appologise for as i had read another post wrong
> No i was asking y papers were so important n then felt i had to defend myself and i only wish to prove just because its a pedigree dont make u love it more.
> Doesnt.mean its less likely to attach either
> Also u can kc re ne dog.pedigree or not


What are you using to type with? Your posts keep having full stops and strange spellings all over the place?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> View attachment 91284
> 
> Rox age 4 month.


She looks big for 4 months to me or is that the Mastiff coming through?


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I have 5 dogs, 4 Pedigree shetland sheepdogs and 1 GSD cross.

Out of all my dogs my cross is the one that costs me the most, she has a handful of genetic illnesses and has hip problems because she was bred for no real reason, her parents were not tested, she was kept back by said breeder and bred to her own brother and was 8 years old when I got her, she had had no vet treatment during those 8 years for her genetic illnesses and worse still in 8 years had not been vaccinated, chipped or spayed!

I would love to have a pedigree for her, that way I could trace her family see who caused the health problems and kick the breeder in the nuts! 

I will NEVER buy a cross or unregistered dog again, they rarely health test and I have watched my beautiful cross deteriorate over the past 4 years in such a way I wish that on no one! Some days she can barely move and we have to place a water dish by her head so she can drink. Other days she's okay, but you can tell she's not comfortable.

I wanted a dog that I could say bye to in her sleep. Not watch her health make her a shell of a dog until I am forced to say good bye in a vet surgery. 

I have just bred my first litter of KC registered Shetland sheepdogs, I can tell you that both the mum and dad were fully health tested (I can show you if you like) and I have made nothing, not a penny. Between health testing, stud fee's, chipping, good quality dog food for mum and pups, progesterone testing and herpes vaccines I am actually down money. Out of the litter of 3, 1 is staying with me, 1 is lodging with me for an extra 3 weeks for their new owners to come back of holiday . If it was about money, I would not be keeping them any longer than needed. 

Before you judge, get your facts right.


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> She looks big for 4 months to me or is that the Mastiff coming through?


I thought that too


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## Bella Beagle Mum (Jan 24, 2012)

shetlandlover said:


> I have 5 dogs, 4 Pedigree shetland sheepdogs and 1 GSD cross.
> 
> Out of all my dogs my cross is the one that costs me the most, she has a handful of genetic illnesses and has hip problems because she was bred for no real reason, her parents were not tested, she was kept back by said breeder and bred to her own brother and was 8 years old when I got her, she had had no vet treatment during those 8 years for her genetic illnesses and worse still in 8 years had not been vaccinated, chipped or spayed!
> 
> ...


I liked because I agree with what you said, not for what you have been through! I am so sorry about that.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

The size is mastive 
Her ears yer and most stunning eyes


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Bella Beagle Mum said:


> I liked because I agree with what you said, not for what you have been through! I am so sorry about that.


Thank you,

My Scorcher means the world to me, but I do wish breeders would think before breeding from unhealth tested dogs (pedigree or cross) because at the end of it all, its the person that buys or ends up with the dog that picks up the pieces.

Not just money but emotionally, many nights I sit crying because I know I can't do more than what I already am for her. But I know she wants to stay around, she would be happy as a head in a jar as long as she could be with me. But I know there will come a point when medication will no longer do the trick. I dread that day.:frown5:


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

My heart there does go out to u.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Papers are simply a registration, not a guarantee of health. As such they don't mean a lot to the majority of people. Even the KC Assured Breeders Scheme is not what it is supposed to be... yet. They are working on it. The best way to enhance possible health is to research and check out breeders to ensure they are responsible and ethical. This is regardless of pedigree or crossbreed. It's harder with crossbreeds as you need to know potential problems of both breeds  You notice I don't say guarantee as there will never be a guarantee in terms of health. Far more pedigree breeders health test than for crossbreeds but I believe more crossbreeds are also being tested as awareness grows.

Why is health testing important:

[youtube_browser]mS1iHh1XbKE[/youtube_browser]

That was not a "pedigree" breed.

As for temperament whilst a lot can be in the rearing with things like socializing there is a strong element in the breeding and the breeds themselves. The show lines and working lines of some breeds show this really well I think. The other difference is with pedigree you should know the rough temperament (again if from an ethical breeder). Crossbreeds, take both "parents", pick temperament randomly from somewhere between the two.

Now there is an ongoing debate about crossbreed and pedigree health with crossbreeds health appearing to be better but the jury is still out, especially if you take into consideration all the so called "pedigree" dogs pumped out from Back Yard Breeders (BYB) and their impact into statistics.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Goblin, that video is heartbreaking


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Can someone please explain what a byb is im guessin its someone who breeds for money but can these also b owners of pedigree dogs to


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Coffee said:


> Goblin, that video is heartbreaking


I know but if one person sees it and decides to health test at least some good may come out of it.



> we hope his life and suffering wasn't for nothing.
> Not testing for NCL is ignorant.
> Breeding dogs with NCL is cruel


The whole reason the people released the video is to educate. This was Battens Disease. Many other afflictions can be avoided with health testing.

There are many definitions of BYB or Back Yard Breeders. It often covers puppy farms but also includes people who simply breed dogs to make money. It can even be people who breed as "not fair on a female not to have puppies" and yes I have heard that. Breeding is a commitment which you have to be dedicated to. You are responsible not just until the puppies leave home but for their entire life. Ethical breeders recognize this. Pedigree breeder does not necessarily mean ethical as, as stated, pedigree papers just mean membership in a registration scheme.


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## Bella Beagle Mum (Jan 24, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Papers are simply a registration, not a guarantee of health. As such they don't mean a lot to the majority of people. Even the KC Assured Breeders Scheme is not what it is supposed to be... yet. They are working on it. The best way to enhance possible health is to research and check out breeders to ensure they are responsible and ethical. This is regardless of pedigree or crossbreed. It's harder with crossbreeds as you need to know potential problems of both breeds  You notice I don't say guarantee as there will never be a guarantee in terms of health. Far more pedigree breeders health test than for crossbreeds but I believe more crossbreeds are also being tested as awareness grows.
> 
> Why is health testing important:
> 
> ...


So tragic.....


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Goblin said:


> [youtube_browser]mS1iHh1XbKE[/youtube_browser]
> 
> *That was not a "pedigree" breed.*


saying that is ever so slightly misleading; the american bulldog is recognized by several registeries just not the kennel club. as far as i am aware if you go to responsible , ethical breeders , the american bulldog has `pedigree` paperwork and paperwork from the either of the registries that the breeder has applied to. most responsible ambull dog breeders test for hip;elbow dysplasia and NCL.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Can someone please explain what a byb is im guessin its someone who breeds for money but can these also b owners of pedigree dogs to


BYB is backyard breeders, they don't necessarily breed for money, though many do, & they are unlikely to think through breeding (eg health testing, whether the sire & dam are suitable match or whether the type of dogs they breed are already overbred) & they can breed pedigrees, crosses or outright mongrels.
Their reasons for breeding are diverse & may include 
because they think their dog is nice natured
becuase a lot of friends/family would like a puppy
because they think their dog is a pretty colour
to experience the 'miracle of birth'
because they believe they myth that all dogs should have one litter before being spayed.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Can someone please explain what a byb is im guessin its someone who breeds for money but can these also b owners of pedigree dogs to


Basically it's someone who breeds without doing any research into breeding ethically.
Yes it can be any breed or cross. 
They don't have to be just for the money, they can be people who desperately love their dog and maybe want a pup. They just don't go about it in a way to produce sound pups (they may be lucky and nothing will be wrong) Some don't even know the risk to their bitch

Some pet breeders/BYB are quite ethical, they don't show but do all the relevant tests and know about the ancestry of their dogs. unfortunately, these are few and far between


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

diablo said:


> saying that is ever so slightly misleading; the american bulldog is recognized by several registeries just not the kennel club. as far as i am aware if you go to responsible , ethical breeders , the american bulldog has `pedigree` paperwork and paperwork from the either of the registries that the breeder has applied to. most responsible ambull dog breeders test for hip;elbow dysplasia and NCL.


In the UK it is my understanding that "pedigree" is just for those breeds recognized by the Kennel Club. Outside of that there are many registration schemes possibly even for some crossbreeds.

Happy to be corrected as, as stated, that was my understanding.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Goblin said:


> In the UK it is my understanding that "pedigree" is just for those breeds recognized by the Kennel Club. Outside of that there are many registration schemes possibly even for some crossbreeds.
> 
> Happy to be corrected as, as stated, that was my understanding.


ABR http://www.abruk.co.uk/ as far as i am aware does only recognize american bulldogs; as does the ABRA http://www.abra1st.com/ along with the alapaha blueblood bulldog. those as far as my knowledge goes are the only all strain american bulldog registries; think the NKC http://www.nationalkennelclub.com/ does too although they recognize several breeds.


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## WhippetyAmey (Mar 4, 2012)

First, Oh my god. You miss a lot if you go to work with no PF access 



Natzzhixon said:


> Not all but most people with kc reg dogs breed.


This, as others have said, is just a load of rubbish.



Natzzhixon said:


> Personally i dont care were my dog comes from.


It's not so much we care where they came from as in lines etc (unless showing), it's because when most people buy a dog they want them to live for as long as possible and live as healthy a life as possible and do not want them to go through any trauma that is not necessary, by getting health tested parents, this helps this. It's not always the papers - it's that the mum and dad are happy and healthy. (IMO)



Natzzhixon said:


> 1st the post removed wasnt nothing bad and i did appologise for as i had read another post wrong
> No i was asking y papers were so important n then felt i had to defend myself and i only wish to prove just because its a pedigree dont make u love it more.
> Doesnt.mean its less likely to attach either
> Also u can kc re ne dog.pedigree or not


No you can't get any dog KC reg'd.

If you are a real poster, I cannot understand why you would post this as your first post, you would comment on such a heated topic, in which people have such strong opinions.

Surely you'd know it's not a 'easy' topic and I don't understand why you'd bring it up, and not introduce yourself so we knew you etc, before saying something so controversial...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Goblin said:


> In the UK it is my understanding that "pedigree" is just for those breeds recognized by the Kennel Club. Outside of that there are many registration schemes possibly even for some crossbreeds.
> 
> Happy to be corrected as, as stated, that was my understanding.


Strictly speaking a 'pedigree' is simply a list of ancestors so all dogs have one whether purebred or cross bred. Of course, they may not be written down, so pedigree papers means the ancestors are written down. It has become associated with purebreed dogs although it often means different things to different people.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Diablo: I know many breed clubs for non recognised KC breeds have registration schemes and codes of conduct as strict as any other breed club. However a dog cannot be called "pedigree" unless is has KC papers. Or am I wrong?

Rocco33: Which is why the whole issue is a confusing mess to most people


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

diablo said:


> you can`t k.c reg any dog.


of course technically you can now if you go through many expensive hoops, but this is only for dogs deemed to be of one breed... all dogs are eligible for the 'working' register, and as such it's easier to undertake the tests supported by the KC, but it doesn't prove ancestry, it's merely a record, most are of parentage unknown, although some will be known. I've a dog on this registry but I had to say sire unknown or they wouldn't have registered her, her dam is known and recorded... however catch 22 means if I tell them who the sire is then the pup should have been eligible for the breed register, but as they wouldn't register her on the breed register (due to who her parents are, it was an accidental mating) then she wouldn't have been registered at all.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Diablo: I know many breed clubs for non recognised KC breeds have registration schemes and codes of conduct as strict as any other breed club. However a dog cannot be called "pedigree" unless is has KC papers. Or am I wrong?


of course they can be called pedigree`s as long as they have a written pedigree papers along with the breed registries paperwork to back that up. now i am on about `breed` registries , not the DLRC and like which will register anything.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I agree that a BYB is anyone who breeds in an unethical or irresponsible manner, often for the "wrong" reasons, such as money, the miracle of birth, cute pups etc.

And of course there are BYBs of pedigree dogs (even KC reg ones), crosses and mongrels.

The thing most of us object to isn't that a pup doesn't have papers - as has been said, crosses can't be KC reg and anyway, that alone doesn't guarantee quality - but the fact the breeders were BYBs.

If I remember correctly, you said one parent was a staffie, the other a staffie/mastiff cross. In which case, the staffie should have been from health tested lines, preferably KC registered, and he himself should have been health tested for relevent issues. The grandparents (the staffie and mastiff) should both have been health tested before being bred (to produce your dogs mum).
The mum should then have been tested at least for staffie issues (as she was to be mated to another staffie), possibly for mastiff issues as well.

IMO, given the huge number of staffies, staffie crosses and mastiff types already being killed every week for want of a home - breeding more like this is inexcusable. I don't object to good quality, sound healthy staffs or mastiffs being bred by ethical, responsible breeders - I do object to any old numpty churning out litters of pups with no regard to their health or future welfare.

No one believes that crosses, or un-registered dogs, etc are less lovable, or that you don't love your dog. We do believe that breeding from dogs without good reason, in an unethical and irresponsible way, is a problem! 

Perhaps the people that bred your pup should spend a week at a council pound watching as staffie crosses get killed day in day out for no reason other than being "surplus" to human requirements. Or perhpas at a vets surgery watching a dog undergo major surgery, or euthanasia, for an inherited condition.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

diablo said:


> of course they can be called pedigree`s as long as they have a written pedigree papers along with the breed registries paperwork to back that up. now i am on about `breed` registries , not the DLRC and like which will register anything.


Thanks, learn something new everyday.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Diablo: I know many breed clubs for non recognised KC breeds have registration schemes and codes of conduct as strict as any other breed club. However a dog cannot be called "pedigree" unless is has KC papers. Or am I wrong?
> 
> Rocco33: Which is why the whole issue is a confusing mess to most people


Additionally, there are many breeds not recognised by the KC that are recognised by kennel clubs in other countries. There are also independent clubs/registries with higher standards than our KC. The Leavitt Bulldog Association is a good example.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

*le sigh*


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Thanks, learn something new everyday.


should have stated that is only my opinion; others may see things differently , though i am wondering , i recently brought home a *currently* k.c unrecognized breed puppy , have her written out pedigree papers and her official breed registry paperwork ; so does that make her any less of a pedigree because her breed is currently not recognized by the kennel club ? have no idea whether they will be at any stage either; short answer is probably a no.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Cute dog, confusing thread!

xxx


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> Cute dog, confusing thread!
> 
> xxx


I gave up around page 2 and skipped to the end. Sometimes I just can't be asked to read pages and pages of argumentative posts from someone who quite clearly doesn't want to learn anything. :001_rolleyes:


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## Bella Beagle Mum (Jan 24, 2012)

8tansox said:


> I gave up around page 2 and skipped to the end. Sometimes I just can't be asked to read pages and pages of argumentative posts from someone who quite clearly doesn't want to learn anything. :001_rolleyes:


Ah but that means you missed my amazingly witty posts!


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

A pedigree dog is a pedigree dog whether or not it is registered.People think that the pedigree is important,it is not as such,it is the registration papers.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bjt said:


> A pedigree dog is a pedigree dog whether or not it is registered.People think that the pedigree is important,it is not as such,it is the registration papers.


Nope it's the health test papers


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Yep rona,you are right.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Got to page 11 and got fed up with the sweeping generalisations about KC pedigree dogs, and the OP thought that cross breeds got a bad deal?!! 

So for those of us with pedigree dogs that health test and then choose to spay a bitch and not breed because health test results aren't as good as they should be, well, surely we'd just breed from that dog anyway? 

Does it matter that they have papers? Yes, because I know those papers inside out, and have researched about them. Would it mean much to you to have a piece of paper, probably not, if you want me to send you a piece of paper through the post I'd be more than happy, won't make a bit of difference that you've got a pup who, may well be lovely, but is from un health tested parentage, and people keep breeding these dogs when they are put to sleep day in day out. Look at any rescue and the majority of dogs are staffy types, and/or crosses thereof. 

There is no justification for buying from a breeder who doesn't breed with the best interests of their dog(s) at heart, and who doesn't make use of appropriate health tests, as well as considering conformation, temperament, and, where appropriate, ability. So taking a wild stab in the dark at pedigree dogs with papers, just because *some* dogs don't have them, just doesn't wash.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Hands up, anyone here not get a dog from rescue cos they did not have the dog with the look they were after, and admit so elsewhere?

OK keep them up if you then went and got a dog from a breeder just because he looks like a dog called Creature from Pitt Bulls and Parolees. Again only keep them up if you admitted this elsewhere.

(Should now be only one hand up, but lets continue to make sure.)

OK now keep them up, if you are fully aware that you have taken a dangerous step with the look of your dog. Lets hope that look does not result in the loss of that family pet.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

I wonder if Milliepoochie got her housework done yet?


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> I wonder if Milliepoochie got her housework done yet?


Only the kitchen left to do.


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## Teddy Red Lab (Nov 23, 2011)

What an exhausting post! I don't get why you made your first post on PF so aggressive and contraversial- I know you have apologised for that now, but blimey, I had to have a glass of wine to read this and chewed off half of my nails!!! 

Why don't you start a new post introducing yourself and telling us about your lovely new pooch away from this one because TBH it seems like you have pi**ed quite a few people off within this post! 

Theres loads of really knowledgable people on here who can give you fantastic advice if ever you have a problem with your pooch, and it is also the place for a bit of a debate etc but its perhaps not a good idea to burn your bridges with people on here from the outset. Wait till you have been on here a while before you start burning bridges!


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

wow this has become a looooooooooooong post hmy::Yawn:


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> I wonder if Milliepoochie got her housework done yet?


Nope Milliepoochie has closed the kitchen door and is sitting down with a glass of Polish cold medicine (Cherry syrup Vodka )



DoggieBag said:


> Only the kitchen left to do.


How did you get a photo of my kitchen  Hmm our secret is out.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

A pedigree is simply a known lineage, it's important though that the registry used is reputable, otherwise the 'pedigree' could simply be made up... although it's known there are errors on even the KC registry because, basically, it's a matter of trust....

other registries are just as valid though, some breeds not recognised by the KC for example the Welsh Sheepdog (which have to be put on the KC working register as WSDs), there's also a registry for many of the non recognised terriers... for me the most important is the International Sheep Dog Society - many breeders of border collies simply don't want to bother with the KC, instead continue to use the ISDS registry... the KC when they recognised border collies agreed to hold their register open so that any dog either registered with, or with parents registered with ISDS would be eligible for KC registration. When I look back at my dogs' ancestries, only a small part is through the KC, most of it is via the ISDS which started in the early 1900s. My Cody is 'dual' registered, his dam is ISDS only, his sire is dual registered and he was registered on the KC register as an ISDS dog....


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Wow 2 hours away and really.......
1st. The reson i registered was because as stated befor i saw a post regarding blue staffs that yes put my back up i tbh didnt actually realise what this was all about i was out raged this is y i started so agressive.
2nd ive never slated kc reg dog i just didnt know and had wrong facts. But i have known papers to be wrong and papers to be forged.
3rd my dog looks nothing like a pitt bull and yes she could be classed as a pitt type but ive had her veted and spoken to police about this and was told best thing i could do to show i was a responsible owner. 
Fair enough i didnt buy her the best way and i clearly looked into the wrong.things b4 i bought her but since ive had her i have been responsible with her.:frown:

And for the person who thinks she is a pitt look alike please do ur research on a pitt bull and u will see she looks nothing like one.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Wow 2 hours away and really.......
> 1st. The reson i registered was because as stated befor i saw a post regarding blue staffs that yes put my back up i tbh didnt actually realise what this was all about i was out raged this is y i started so agressive.
> 2nd ive never slated kc reg dog i just didnt know and had wrong facts. But i have known papers to be wrong and papers to be forged.
> 3rd my dog looks nothing like a pitt bull and yes she could be classed as a pitt type but ive had her veted and spoken to police about this and was told best thing i could do to show i was a responsible owner.
> ...


Don't tell me to look up how dogs are deemed of type. The DDA is what I know a great deal about. It is what fills up my days 7 days of the week.

So you have picked the wrong person to direct your aggression towards 

But why don't you go do your research. You will see that a dog does not have to have any APBT in their blood/lines to be deemed to be of type under the Dangerous Dogs Act.

My points are based on posts you have made elsewhere. Where you openly admit the reasons etc for getting Roxi.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

First off no aggression 
2nd u have said the reson i got roxi was nothing to do with what she looks like to wich i will defend myself. 
I was looking for a golden retriever but i got to know roxi and fell in love with her.
And yes she may fall into pitt type my point was u said she was a look alike to wich i statued she does not look like a pitt
I never said she didnt fall under the.dangerous dog act


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> First off no aggression
> 2nd u have said the reson i got roxi was nothing to do with what she looks like to wich i will defend myself.
> I was looking for a golden retriever but i got to know roxi and fell in love with her.
> And yes she may fall into pitt type my point was u said she was a look alike to wich i statued she does not look like a pitt
> *I never said she didnt fall under the.dangerous dog act*


I have warned you once with the clue to my day to day dealings.With that in mind you may wish to lay off admissions such as the part I have highlighted.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

I mite be thick but i dont get ur point ive explained y i startes so agressively and ive alos done as advised started afresh to apologise for big mouth and lack of knowledge. I have tried.to c what this forum is all about and hopefully learn. Why u felt the need to follow.me and direct people bk here i do not know.
But i wish to start afresh and c wot i can learn
And if ur saying u have knowledge in dangerous dogs please instead of threats advice would be welcome 
Ive apologised started afresh i can do no more.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> I mite be thick but i dont get ur point ive explained y i startes so agressively and ive alos done as advised started afresh to apologise for big mouth and lack of knowledge. I have tried.to c what this forum is all about and hopefully learn. Why u felt the need to follow.me and direct people bk here i do not know.
> But i wish to start afresh and c wot i can learn
> And if ur saying u have knowledge in dangerous dogs please instead of threats advice would be welcome
> Ive apologised started afresh i can do no more.


Not sure what you mean about getting people to come here????

If you mean the post I made in your other thread, then I deleted that (or meant to).

The aim of that was because people were asking for photos, so I told them there were some here. By the time I had posted that, you had posted 2 attachments.

That is why I then deleted it. Or at least thought I had deleted it. Then again you could of spotted it really quick, before I did remove it.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

I will gladly offer you advice (missed that part of your post).

The moral of the story is be careful what you say (use the highlighted bit I picked out earlier as an example), also be careful of what you say on other websites such as facebook. 

I will go copy and paste something for you now.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Yes i noticed thank u for now i can start new and as i said before ne informatiin would be welcome

AND THANK U FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ANSWERED Y PAPERS R IMPORTANT AND.MAKIMG ME AWARW OF BYB ITS SOMETHING I WILL TAKE INTO CONCIDERATION


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Why u felt the need to follow.me and direct people bk here i do not know.


no one is following you i think that`s a pretty strong accusation to make against another member here obviously your thread has generated a lot of interest , that is all. if you make posts you can either expect to be challenged on your opinion , or have people disagree or agree with what you post. thats what makes a forum


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Actuall i diablo the post was kindly removed and thankd the person.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

When the police or local authority (i.e the Dog Warden) are assessing if a dog is of type they use a checklist. If the dog gets more ticks for having a measurement etc as per the checklist then it is deemed to be a "Pit Bull Type".

Now that is totally unfair as many crosses can have the look (using the checklist) of "type".

One examples is a Lab x Bullie breed, will have many of the points required to be deemed to be of type.

If you cross 2 Bull breeds then those points grow even more.

Even pure breeds not in the Bullie group can get alot of points. One example is a Ridgeback.

Now I mentioned in my last post I was off to get something to copy and paste. This is it, it is the guidelines they use. I have highlighted in red, 2 bits of great importance.



> The standard used to identify a PBT is set out in the American Dog Breeders Association standard of conformation as published in the Pit Bull Gazette, vol 1, issue 3 1977  please refer to this for the full description and also relevant cases20 as this is only a brief overview. Although the law does not require
> a suspected PBT to fit the description perfectly, it does require there to be a substantial number of characteristics present so that it can be considered more PBT than any other type of dog.
>  When first viewing the dog it should appear square from the side, and its height to the top of its shoulders should be the same distance as from the front of its shoulder to the rear point of its hip.
>  Its height to weight ratio should be in proportion.
> ...


How many of those does Roxi match?


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

With regards the measurements of the body being square above:

The height x length do not have to be an exact match to be deemed square.

So if the height is 27ins and the length is 27ins that is a perfect square.

But under the guidelines so is 27in height and 28in length. And so on.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Ill check her wen.she gets back


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

What would happen if she is deemed a pitt type 
She has jabs up to date
Has been micro chipped 
Is due to be spayed 
And im looking into tatoo
She is also insured


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

We worked it out.at 4


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Ill check her wen.she gets back


And to bring it back to the papers subject of this thread:

Even if you had the papers stating Roxi is a Staff x Mastiff, that does not matter. Nor if you had the paperwork for her parents. If she looks like a dog "of type" then under the law she is.

Unfair? Totally.

It's so stupid a law, that even littermates can differ in their results.

So one dog could be deemed to be of type, while its brothers or sisters are not.

If you are worried she is "of type" then you need to be prepared for what could happen. All it takes is for her to be spotted by a trained police officer or even worse for you to annoy a neighbour and in revenge they report you.

Now before I go get my much needed beauty sleep  I will just repeat the following:

I am not saying she is of type, nor that she is not (cos I have not seen her except in photos). My posts have been based on what you have said yourself that you think she could be deemed to be of type.

I will also say, I echo what has been said both here and on your apology thread. Please stay around, despite your first impressions from the that Blue Staff thread, PF is a friendly place.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

We have had her checked by police officer he said no 
But she isnt fully grown i wondered if this would change as she gets oldder. 
This is puppy roxi 
And will continue to use and work out how to use lol


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> What would happen if she is deemed a pitt type
> She has jabs up to date
> Has been micro chipped
> Is due to be spayed
> ...


OMG you post way quicker than me, slow down. 

If she is deemed to be of type, she will be seized.

The rules are changing soon, but in the situation as it is right now she would be kenneled at a secret location until the court hearing. That could be for a few weeks, months or even years. This depends on appeals etc so that is why it can drag on for years.

The Judge does not have to order the dog to be put to sleep. He/she does have the option for you to register her as a result of you being issued a contingency destruction order.

This would involve pretty much the things you are already looking into doing, plus she would have to be muzzled. Failure to comply will mean Roxi is put to sleep.

However you doing it beforehand may not influence the Judges decision.

The things that can go in your favour is if you are an experienced dog owner and of good character.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> We have had her checked by police officer he said no
> But she isnt fully grown i wondered if this would change as she gets oldder.
> This is puppy roxi
> And will continue to use and work out how to use lol


She looks less "of type" in that photo in my opinion based on that photo. So yes she may become more "of type" as she gets older. Its the worry of owning certain crossbreeds as well as some pedigree ones.

Was it a normal police man (i.e. a beat bobbie) or was it someone from the dog section?


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Dog section
A friend from customs introduced him. 
I think ill worrie less enjoy more.
Unfortunately were i live there are alot of pitbulls. Had i not.have know parents and grand.parents id be worries more


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

DoggieBag said:


> She looks less "of type" in that photo in my opinion based on that photo. So yes she may become more "of type" as she gets older. Its the worry of owning certain crossbreeds as well as some pedigree ones.
> 
> Was it a normal police man (i.e. a beat bobbie) or was it someone from the dog section?


Going to bed now but just wanted to add:

She doesn't look so of type in that puppy pic, but looks 50/50 in the others. Like I said I can not base anything on photos as such. I was only repeating what you yourself have said.

So if she does now look of type, she could stay looking the same. Or as she grows she may even become less "of type" if the Mastiff side kicks in.

Guess its a waiting game. Right goodnight.

(Bet you have replied in the time it took me to write this, with another question.  )


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Dog section
> A friend from customs introduced him.
> I think ill worrie less enjoy more.
> Unfortunately were i live there are alot of pitbulls. Had i not.have know parents and grand.parents id be worries more


Dog section helps a little in your favour. Depends if he was trained in Dog Legislation. Most forces have a DLO, some do not. So a Dog Handler should be up to speed, but may not. Though they will have more knowledge than a beat bobbie or someone in traffic. 

Remember though her parents make no difference if she is ever deemed to be of type.

Right of to bed now. But like you say enjoy her.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

WOW, just caught up with this thread. I saw it yesterday when there were only 2/3 pages and decided not to look again as I thought you were a troll.

Obviously not, so hi and welcome to the forum, stick around, you will learn a lot.

Your dog is gorgeous, I can see a lot of the mastiff in her.

I wanted to comment as you said you don't care where your dog comes from now that says to me that either a) you don't care much about dogs or b) you don't realise the consequences of supporting unethical beeeders.

By buying a pup from a BYB or similar you are encouraging that person to breed again. It's vastly different from rescuing. If a BYB has to give their pups to a rescue centre because no one has bought them, chances are, they won't breed again or will certainly think twice about doing so again as they gained nothing from it.

When rescuing, you are not putting money into the back pocket of a BYB. You are giving a dog in need a home and quite possibly saving a life. 

If everyone did their research before buying a puppy and only bought from an ethical breeder there would be no such thing as a BYB or a puppy farmer. It would prevent the needless suffering of so many dogs and there would probably be less than half the amount of rescue centres in this country.

Nothing is gained (the opposite in fact) by 'cutting out the middle man' in the way that you mention.

Anyway, what's done is done. You have your pup now and I hope she has a long, healthy and happy life with you. I hope she isn't deemed to be of type or if she is then she can go on the exempt dogs register. 

To Goblin and the others talking about the definition of pedigree. Interesting, you do learn something new every day  I too thought a dog was only technically a pedigree if it was recognised by the KC, if not, I though it was classed as a purebred...


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> What would happen if she is deemed a pitt type
> She has jabs up to date
> Has been micro chipped
> Is due to be spayed
> ...


It sounds to me as if you're doing the responsible things with her.
Stick around, there are some great people on here


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Blimey, started reading this thread but its gone on forever! I read up to p10 and this page, have I missed anything? 
Did anyone get the popcorn out without telling me


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## leighhawkes89 (Jun 1, 2012)

i didnt get any papers with my pup? is this a bad thing im so confused?! we got no documentation or anything with our Bruno as we rehomed him from a VERY inexperienced dog owner who clearly wanted bruno as a 'status' dog?

We have paper work now though for his jabs etc..
so confused. x


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

leighhawkes89 said:


> i didnt get any papers with my pup? is this a bad thing im so confused?! we got no documentation or anything with our Bruno as we rehomed him from a VERY inexperienced dog owner who clearly wanted bruno as a 'status' dog?
> 
> We have paper work now though for his jabs etc..
> so confused. x


Your gorgeous Bruno is in the same boat as my Millie - Strictly speaking unknown parentage as we cant trust the numpties we got them from and came without even vaccines records :mad2:

He is not a pedigree pure breed so doesnt have any KC registration papers (health tests records etc) which was the 'paperwork' being spoken about in this thread.

Nothing to be confused or worried about :thumbup:

I love your Bruno so much lol


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leighhawkes89 said:


> i didnt get any papers with my pup? is this a bad thing im so confused?! we got no documentation or anything with our Bruno as we rehomed him from a VERY inexperienced dog owner who clearly wanted bruno as a 'status' dog?
> 
> We have paper work now though for his jabs etc..
> so confused. x


Rehoming a dog is a different thing to buying a dog that's been bred, you're taking in a dog that's been in a situation where owners can't look after them adequately for whatever reason, sometimes through their own ignorance, sometimes situations change either the home life or the actual dogs themselves. But there's not really any excuse for buying a pup from someone who doesn't *care* about how someone is breeding, and there's a huge difference between caring for your animals individually, and not realising that by breeding from animals that don't have health tests, where you're not aware of problems with past dogs in their history, then you don't care enough that this might be passed on down to pups, either your litter, or possibly someone else who decides to breed on from the pups you produce.

*Bad* breeders aren't tatooed across the forehead, and may be really nice people, who just aren't aware of all the issues surrounding breeding, and how many dogs end up in rescue from litters that haven't been planned well. Yes, you do get pedigree dogs in rescue, because you get the same happening with pedigrees, good breeders stay in touch with puppy buyers and ensure their dogs don't end up in rescue. Bad breeders just don't care, and their pups end up getting passed on if the buyer can't cope, rather than sent back to the breeder to sort the problem out and find a new home.

So your boy won't have any papers I'd imagine, which isn't a bad thing for you, just a shame the breeder obviously didn't care enough to ensure everything was in place before breeding a litter of pups.


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## leighhawkes89 (Jun 1, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Your gorgeous Bruno is in the same boat as my Millie - Strictly speaking unknown parentage as we cant trust the numpties we got them from and came without even vaccines records :mad2:
> 
> He is not a pedigree pure breed so doesnt have any KC registration papers (health tests records etc) which was the 'paperwork' being spoken about in this thread.
> 
> ...


ahh wel thats good then i wasnt sure what kc papers were to be honest 

some of your posts made me laugh last night was sooo funny... are you still staring at your filthy house? lol

cant wait to meet Millie  x


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

leighhawkes89 said:


> i didnt get any papers with my pup? is this a bad thing im so confused?! we got no documentation or anything with our Bruno as we rehomed him from a VERY inexperienced dog owner who clearly wanted bruno as a 'status' dog?
> 
> We have paper work now though for his jabs etc..
> so confused. x


Paperwork can mean a number of things- 
health test certificates (usually only for dogs that may be bred from)
Pedigrees
KC Registration certificates

Some of these you might get if privately rehoming a dog, but not necessarily. I have KC papers for the girls even though they were rescued as the paperwork was brought with them. I have nothing for Bob as he came from someone who was just going to abandon him.
They've got their own paperwork since they've been with us- vaccination cards & microchipping details & I also have records I've done myself to keep track of dates & health histories etc, I'm a bit of a geek like that


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## leighhawkes89 (Jun 1, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Rehoming a dog is a different thing to buying a dog that's been bred, you're taking in a dog that's been in a situation where owners can't look after them adequately for whatever reason, sometimes through their own ignorance, sometimes situations change either the home life or the actual dogs themselves. But there's not really any excuse for buying a pup from someone who doesn't *care* about how someone is breeding, and there's a huge difference between caring for your animals individually, and not realising that by breeding from animals that don't have health tests, where you're not aware of problems with past dogs in their history, then you don't care enough that this might be passed on down to pups, either your litter, or possibly someone else who decides to breed on from the pups you produce.
> 
> *Bad* breeders aren't tatooed across the forehead, and may be really nice people, who just aren't aware of all the issues surrounding breeding, and how many dogs end up in rescue from litters that haven't been planned well. Yes, you do get pedigree dogs in rescue, because you get the same happening with pedigrees, good breeders stay in touch with puppy buyers and ensure their dogs don't end up in rescue. Bad breeders just don't care, and their pups end up getting passed on if the buyer can't cope, rather than sent back to the breeder to sort the problem out and find a new home.
> 
> So your boy won't have any papers I'd imagine, which isn't a bad thing for you, just a shame the breeder obviously didn't care enough to ensure everything was in place before breeding a litter of pups.


I agree totally it would of been nice to have had papers or known where he had come from etc but unfortunitly we are having to guess lol with what you said about breeders wanting to know about their pups they have sold and how they are doing etc the bloke we got bruno from really did not care about how bruno was getting along we messaged him a few times to tell him how he was settling down etc but he didnt reply didnt care nothing! how can people be like that.. if i had to rehome my dog which would be HEARTBREAKING i would want to know everything and know they are doing ok


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leighhawkes89 said:


> I agree totally it would of been nice to have had papers or known where he had come from etc but unfortunitly we are having to guess lol with what you said about breeders wanting to know about their pups they have sold and how they are doing etc the bloke we got bruno from really did not care about how bruno was getting along we messaged him a few times to tell him how he was settling down etc but he didnt reply didnt care nothing! how can people be like that.. if i had to rehome my dog which would be HEARTBREAKING i would want to know everything and know they are doing ok


You'll find that breeders are now selling pups under contract, with endorsements in place to try and prevent their pups being bred from in the future. I've got a contract in place for my pups, checked by my solicitor, and will be very much keeping in touch with puppy owners. I know lots of breeders who do this, but there are unfortunately so many who just don't care, once they've been paid and the pup has gone, they're not really too bothered if they hear from them again


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

leighhawkes89 said:


> ahh wel thats good then i wasnt sure what kc papers were to be honest
> 
> some of your posts made me laugh last night was sooo funny... are you still staring at your filthy house? lol
> 
> cant wait to meet Millie  x


Haha ironically I have just cleaned the kitchen actually:thumbup: 

Definately I am very much looking forward to meeting Bruno  Im intrigued to see what size he is compared to Millie lol (Millie is TIIINY! )


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Not all but most people with kc reg dogs breed.


I'm sure you know this now, but I really wanted to say - I have never heard anything so silly in my life. Very, very, very untrue. I would like to know where you found the statistics for this in order for you to make that statement?



Natzzhixon said:


> Also u can kc re ne dog.pedigree or not


No, you can't. You can register any dog (pedigree or cross) on the KC's Activity Register so that they can compete in Flyball, Agility and other doggy sports at competition level, but it doesn't make them kennel club registered.



Natzzhixon said:


> What would happen if she is deemed a pitt type
> She has jabs up to date
> Has been micro chipped
> Is due to be spayed
> ...


It's great that you've done those things for her and you obviously have been responsible in that respect but none of that would matter if she was deemed as type. They would still seize her and it'd make no difference to the case.

I can't believe I wasted nearly an hour reading through this thread


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natzzhixon said:


> Ive know both parents of my puppy for 2 years
> Her dad has kc papers
> Her mum is a staff x mastive
> Her mums mum is a kc reg blue and her dad is a kc reg mastive
> ...


and there you have it an ignorant BYB! ...1)breeding staffie crosses,2)using larger breed sire-smaller type dam...:mad2:

probably because you didnt do any research but you have supported an irresponsible breeder, its not the actual poor dogs people get peed off with!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> and there you have it an ignorant BYB! ...1)breeding staffie crosses,2)using larger breed sire-smaller type dam...:mad2:
> 
> probably because you didnt do any research but you have supported an irresponsible breeder, its not the actual poor dogs people get peed off with!


It should be noted that the majority of people don't realize that they are supporting bad breeders. As a group here we should not lay blame for something which has happened as people simply didn't know. We can inform so people don't make the same mistake again but look at how we can educate society at large so poor breeders are not supported. This education is something we all can contribute to in small ways. May not make a lot of difference, idiots who don't care are out there but if we can make just one or two people each look at breeders carefully who knows what heartache we can save. Most people support bad breeders through ignorance, not choice.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> It should be noted that the majority of people don't realize that they are supporting bad breeders. As a group here we should not lay blame for something which has happened as people simply didn't know. We can inform so people don't make the same mistake again but look at how we can educate society at large so poor breeders are not supported. This education is something we all can contribute to in small ways. May not make a lot of difference, idiots who don't care are out there but if we can make just one or two people each look at breeders carefully who knows what heartache we can save. Most people support bad breeders through ignorance, not choice.


 i do agree with you.

but it just amazes me that so many people are buying pups without any reasearch whatsoever...they probably take more care and do more research when they buy a car than they do for a living breathing animal.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Goblin said:


> It should be noted that the majority of people don't realize that they are supporting bad breeders. As a group here we should not lay blame for something which has happened as people simply didn't know. We can inform so people don't make the same mistake again but look at how we can educate society at large so poor breeders are not supported. This education is something we all can contribute to in small ways. May not make a lot of difference, idiots who don't care are out there but if we can make just one or two people each look at breeders carefully who knows what heartache we can save. Most people support bad breeders through ignorance, not choice.[/QUOTE
> 
> Thank u i did not know what a byb was till this.
> And now i no i will not repete this action.
> I do wish people would stop saying this is ignorance as ignorance would.be if.i knew this.and still did this


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Natzzhixon said:


> Goblin said:
> 
> 
> > It should be noted that the majority of people don't realize that they are supporting bad breeders. As a group here we should not lay blame for something which has happened as people simply didn't know. We can inform so people don't make the same mistake again but look at how we can educate society at large so poor breeders are not supported. This education is something we all can contribute to in small ways. May not make a lot of difference, idiots who don't care are out there but if we can make just one or two people each look at breeders carefully who knows what heartache we can save. Most people support bad breeders through ignorance, not choice.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Thank u i did not know what a byb was till this.
> And now i no i will not repete this action.
> I do wish people would stop saying this is ignorance as ignorance would.be if.i knew this.and still did this


You've got that the wrong way round, ignorance is when you don't know something, you're done it in ignorance, so buying a dog without doing full research and not knowing about health testing, is buying something in ignorance


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Goblin said:
> 
> 
> > It should be noted that the majority of people don't realize that they are supporting bad breeders. As a group here we should not lay blame for something which has happened as people simply didn't know. We can inform so people don't make the same mistake again but look at how we can educate society at large so poor breeders are not supported. This education is something we all can contribute to in small ways. May not make a lot of difference, idiots who don't care are out there but if we can make just one or two people each look at breeders carefully who knows what heartache we can save. Most people support bad breeders through ignorance, not choice.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Then i will admit defeat on this i WAS IGNORANT.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Thank u i did not know what a byb was till this.
> And now i no i will not repete this action.
> I do wish people would stop saying this is ignorance as ignorance would.be if.i knew this.and still did this


The term isn't being used as an insult or slur but a description of a state of being.
You could use the terms uninformed, unfamiliar or unaware but ignorance means the same in this instance


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Then i will admit defeat on this i WAS IGNORANT.


Don't beat yourself up, you're not the only one, and some of us, like me, are lucky to stumble across people that were happy to explain health testing and good breeding practices. It's one reason I pass on the message about health testing and good breeding, so that hopefully I can help a few people from falling into the same trap as others, but some people you can give them the information and they will still choose to buy a pup from a place they know isn't the best of breeders, because that's the colour/breed/cross breed/size/shape etc, etc, they want, and they aren't prepared to wait or compromise 

At least from what you've posted on here, you're willing to learn about things, which is no bad thing


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Even if just one person listens its something.
And i joined this pf just to give some idiotic person a piece of my mind and ended up learning.something usefull


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Even if just one person listens its something.
> And i joined this pf just to give some idiotic person a piece of my mind and ended up learning.something usefull


I'm so glad  she does look beautiful, I look forward to updates!


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Ill upload some.now x x


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Honestly the things you learn on this forum are amazing, I too had no idea about how important health testing was until I came on here, sadly for me it was too late 
So, if the members on here can prevent another member going through what we as a family did by being a little harsh then so be it


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Roxi these ones r more.recent


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natzzhixon said:


> Roxi these ones r more.recent


shes a beauty! shes got such a kind face


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Thank u she very good for 6 months old
Only vices r chewing my gargen and ice cream van lol


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> Honestly the things you learn on this forum are amazing, I too had no idea about how important health testing was until I came on here, sadly for me it was too late
> So, if the members on here can prevent another member going through what we as a family did by being a little harsh then so be it


I think you should tell you tale on this thread in the hope that any who still poo-hoo may just change their stance


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

I think your Roxi looks beautiful, and properly chunky for her age

I hope you enjoy her for many years to come, papers or not :thumbup:

And Daisy just chucked a tennis ball at my laptop so I'd like to think that translates as her approval too :laugh:


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

rona said:


> I think you should tell you tale on this thread in the hope that any who still poo-hoo may just change their stance


Sounds a good idea also then i can c y so many say about testin


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

I would like to say, i dont think your girl looks nice at all..............
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
SHE LOOKS STUNNING!! 

And welcome!!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> ok then
> 
> we rushed him to the vets...he died a few hours later at just two years old
> 
> ...


Thank you
I just hope that wasn't too painful for you


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2012)

so sorry paddyjulie he were a gorgeous boy!


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Stunning looking dog 
Can i have roxi tested and if so what tests would she need


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Stunning looking dog
> Can i have roxi tested and if so what tests would she need


I think if you have a look at the staffy breed club websites, they will tell you which ones are conditions that could have severe health implications, and yes, you can certainly have her tested for those.

Have a look at the links from this website, they should tell you more:

http://www.staffords.co.uk/


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Stunning looking dog
> Can i have roxi tested and if so what tests would she need


She can have the UPC test which is a good indication as to how the kidneys are coping well before any blood test can...

but each breed of dog has different tests that they are advised to have before breeding..just depends..some its hip scores..some its heart checks ..where as bullterriers its kidneys, heart and hearing


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Also if you google for mastiff websites you will hopefully come up with similar links, sorry, off on another website busy so am rushing my answers, but there are most likely forums you can have a look at as well for each breed, that will help make any decisions about testing your girl, and for what conditions


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Such a sad story Paddyjulie, you must have been devastated


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Also if you google for mastiff websites you will hopefully come up with similar links, sorry, off on another website busy so am rushing my answers, but there are most likely forums you can have a look at as well for each breed, that will help make any decisions about testing your girl, and for what conditions


really depends what sort of mastiff , bullmastiff ?? english mastiff ?? neapolitan mastiff ?? dogue de bordeaux ??? and several other breeds that fall into `mastiff` category although currently not recognized by the kennel club  tests vary from breed to breed
only Natzzhixon can answer that question as to whats behind her dog and what sort of mastiff is involved in her breeding.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

diablo said:


> really depends what sort of mastiff , bullmastiff ?? english mastiff ?? neapolitan mastiff ?? dogue de bordeaux ??? and several other breeds that fall into `mastiff` category although currently not recognized by the kennel club  tests very from breed to breed
> only Natzzhixon can answer that question as to whats behind her dog and what sort of mastiff is involved in her breeding.


I don't know if it's a known mastiff type in there, only Natzzhixon can answer that question, but hopefully by looking at the tests relating to mastiff types, they could decide if they may need to test their girl for any. I know one of the staffy conditions can be fatal, so possibly good to test for that one, but might be good for them to chat to staffy breeders to find out


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't know if it's a known mastiff type in there, only Natzzhixon can answer that question, but hopefully by looking at the tests relating to mastiff types, they could decide if they may need to test their girl for any. I know one of the staffy conditions can be fatal, so possibly good to test for that one, but might be good for them to chat to staffy breeders to find out


several mastiff breeds can also suffer from hereditary heart conditions , so it`s important to test for those too


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

paddyjulie, thank you for sharing your story; it is so tragic .


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

rona said:


> Thank you
> I just hope that wasn't too painful for you





diablo said:


> so sorry paddyjulie he were a gorgeous boy!





Natzzhixon said:


> Stunning looking dog
> Can i have roxi tested and if so what tests would she need





simplysardonic said:


> Such a sad story Paddyjulie, you must have been devastated


thanks  one of the hardest things was telling my daughter when she got up in the morning that he was in the vets and we thought he was dying...she didn't get the chance to say goodbye 

but. through this we have experienced a different breed, being chester..at one time it was bullies and that was it, nothing would compare...but I was wrong


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

thank you for sharing Ozzys heartbreaking story Julie xxx


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

HUGE HUGS hun! xxxxx


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Roxis grandfather was a french mastive.
And to clear something up the staff had a c section not a normal delivery


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Roxis grandfather was a french mastive.
> And to clear something up the staff had a c section not a normal delivery


so a dogue de bordeaux. tbh i`m not really surprised she needed a c - section


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

I no the owner went through a very worrying time with the pregnancy.and after had her spayed although his.intentions were to breed her with his friends champion blue.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> I no the owner went through a very worrying time with the pregnancy.and after had her spayed although his.intentions were to breed her with his friends champion blue.


I doubt very much his friend's blue staff is a champion, I could be wrong but it's not a desirable colour to breed for, it's not rewarded in the show ring generally speaking, and it is also associated with health problems, mainly skin/coat issues, so shouldn't be bred for imo. It can crop up from other colours, but because it's perceived as rare and unusual, it's unfortunately being bred for by people wanting to make a bit of quick cash. It's been the same with chocolate Labradors for some years now, they are a favourite of the puppy farmers because for some reason they're perceived as that bit more rare, perhaps the colour name *chocolate* is that bit nicer, and people want them for no other reason than the colour.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Were i am u walk down the road and ur bump into a blue.
This blue is a champ his progress is followed on fb. 
The person with the blue champ went to great lengths to get his dog as he wanted it for this reason. Ill try and find the link. It doesnt just follow him it follows his familu


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Were i am u walk down the road and ur bump into a blue.
> This blue is a champ his progress is followed on fb.
> The person with the blue champ went to great lengths to get his dog as he wanted it for this reason. Ill try and find the link. It doesnt just follow him it follows his familu


I hate to say this, and I think I've got it right, but your friend's staff x mastiff with no health tests, was going to be put to a champion stud dog that their friend owns? I'm sorry, but I don't rate the stud dog owner, if they let their dog be used with a staff x mastiff with no health tests in place, I don't care how many shows the dog has or hasn't done well at. That's not a personal criticism, but a criticism of breeding practices. There are enough staffy crosses out there and responsible staffy breeders are thinking twice at the moment before breeding, only doing so when they want to keep a pup or two back to keep their lines going, as the rescues are overflowing with staffy's and staffy crosses, they are being killed because there is no space for them in rescues even


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

No u have this backwars.please re read


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Ive know both parents of my puppy for 2 years
> Her dad has kc papers
> Her mum is a staff x mastive
> Her mums mum is a kc reg blue and her dad is a kc reg mastive
> ...





Natzzhixon said:


> No u have this backwars.please re read


Sorry hen, I was going on what you'd put earlier in the thread, your pup's mum is a staff x mastiff? Is that the bitch that was going to be used, or was it her mum who is a KC registered blue? Even that isn't really a good idea, if there are skin/coat conditions associated with blue staffy's why on earth would you put two blue staffy's together?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> This blue is a champ his progress is followed on fb.


What sort of Champion?


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> What sort of Champion?


Im not very clued up but ill make it my mission to find out.

Would u like me to tell u the full story going bk to roxis grandparents and ur see how.a.kc stafd and kc reg mastive had pupz


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Im not very clued up but ill make it my mission to find out.
> 
> Would u like me to tell u the full story going bk to roxis grandparents and ur see how.a.kc stafd and kc reg mastive had pupz


Yes including kennel names, i.e their show names.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Would u like me to tell u the full story going bk to roxis grandparents and ur see how.a.kc stafd and kc reg mastive had pupz


I assume it's some sort of accident, entirely preventable in this day and age with the mismate jab, or even a spay. What's sad is that that pup was then also bred from, which gives you your pup, and obviously you wouldn't change that for the world, but it's yet another litter of staffy crosses unfortunately, and every single one born adds to the problem of so many staffy's and staffy crosses being produced. The individual people breeding these pups won't think so, but you only have to look in a rescue organisation to see there are so many staffy's being bred and dumped, and the people responsible are those who are breeding them and not selling under contract or placing endorsements on to try and prevent it continuing. I apologise if any of my posts sound harsh, they really aren't a personal criticism in any way, just the sad truth I'm afraid


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Im unsure of there kennel names but again ill ask wen.i see them.

I ment explain the details in general.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> I no the owner went through a very worrying time with the pregnancy.and after had her spayed although his.intentions were to breed her with his friends champion blue.





Natzzhixon said:


> Im not very clued up but ill make it my mission to find out.
> 
> Would u like me to tell u the full story going bk to roxis grandparents and ur see how.a.kc stafd and kc reg mastive had pupz


I dont think your really following the point, the fact they were bred does not indicate a responsible breeding situation; a large stud on a smaller bitch - risking the bitches health carry pups much too large for her; one would hope that both had clear health tests wrt eyes and hips, but considering they allowed this pairing I doubt it...

Again, due to the fact she was due to be bred with this other Staff we can assume the mastiff stud was "accidental" - but even if it did go ahead it shows little consideration for responsible breeding as blues bred to blues increases risk of CDA in the puppies; most likely due to the owners not having a full comprehension of the potential disorder in the colour and advisable health tests prior to mating - more likely a consideration for money.

Either way, it was an irresponsible breeding in terms of the grandparents of the bitch, and then again a generation later.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I assume it's some sort of accident, entirely preventable in this day and age with the mismate jab, or even a spay. What's sad is that that pup was then also bred from, which gives you your pup, and obviously you wouldn't change that for the world, but it's yet another litter of staffy crosses unfortunately, and every single one born adds to the problem of so many staffy's and staffy crosses being produced. The individual people breeding these pups won't think so, but you only have to look in a rescue organisation to see there are so many staffy's being bred and dumped, and the people responsible are those who are breeding them and not selling under contract or placing endorsements on to try and prevent it continuing. I apologise if any of my posts sound harsh, they really aren't a personal criticism in any way, just the sad truth I'm afraid


If u had said this to me 5 days ago id probably have got the hump and been anoyed
But u r completely right its down to ignorance


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> I dont think your really following the point, the fact they were bred does not indicate a responsible breeding situation; a large stud on a smaller bitch - risking the bitches health carry pups much too large for her; one would hope that both had clear health tests wrt eyes and hips, but considering they allowed this pairing I doubt it...
> 
> Again, due to the fact she was due to be bred with this other Staff we can assume the mastiff stud was "accidental" - but even if it did go ahead it shows little consideration for responsible breeding as blues bred to blues increases risk of CDA in the puppies; most likely due to the owners not having a full comprehension of genetic disorder in the breed and advisable health tests prior to mating - more likely a consideration for money.
> 
> ...


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> grumpy goby said:
> 
> 
> > I dont think your really following the point, the fact they were bred does not indicate a responsible breeding situation; a large stud on a smaller bitch - risking the bitches health carry pups much too large for her; one would hope that both had clear health tests wrt eyes and hips, but considering they allowed this pairing I doubt it...
> ...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> If u had said this to me 5 days ago id probably have got the hump and been anoyed
> But u r completely right its down to ignorance


I'm really pleased you stuck around to learn more, it's nice to see people who are willing to look at different view points, and perhaps even realise that some things they thought were *right* might not be quite so right after all.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Haha love it. Im rather nosey and inquizative


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I doubt very much his friend's blue staff is a champion, I could be wrong but it's not a desirable colour to breed for, it's not rewarded in the show ring generally speaking, and it is also associated with health problems, mainly skin/coat issues, so shouldn't be bred for imo. It can crop up from other colours, but because it's perceived as rare and unusual, it's unfortunately being bred for by people wanting to make a bit of quick cash. It's been the same with chocolate Labradors for some years now, they are a favourite of the puppy farmers because for some reason they're perceived as that bit more rare, perhaps the colour name *chocolate* is that bit nicer, and people want them for no other reason than the colour.


Blues also don't tend to meet the breed standard so don't often do well in the ring as far as I'm aware. The only one that I can think of that's apparently consistently placed is Valglo Singin' The Blues SBT Pedigree I've just noticed he hasn't actually been health tested. Hereditary clear for L2 HGA and HC although IMO should be tested anyway and doesn't look like he's been screened for PHPV and PPSC


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Galadriel17 said:


> Blues also don't tend to meet the breed standard so don't often do well in the ring as far as I'm aware. The only one that I can think of that's apparently consistently placed is Valglo Singin' The Blues SBT Pedigree I've just noticed he hasn't actually been health tested. Hereditary clear for L2 HGA and HC although IMO should be tested anyway and doesn't look like he's been screened for PHPV and PPSC


I saw the valgo dog as well, I think the problem (from memory) with blues is the leathers don't meet the breed standard, similar to the dudleys in Labradors, where the nose and skin round the eyes aren't black. I think that's right from reading about blue staffys in the past. I've just had a very quick peek at some adverts on CD for stud dogs, and I'm shocked to see some kennels promoting blues in the way they are, driving the fashion for them it sesems?


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2012)

Galadriel17 said:


> Blues also don't tend to meet the breed standard so don't often do well in the ring as far as I'm aware. The only one that I can think of that's apparently consistently placed is Valglo Singin' The Blues SBT Pedigree I've just noticed he hasn't actually been health tested. Hereditary clear for L2 HGA and HC although IMO should be tested anyway and doesn't look like he's been screened for PHPV and PPSC


valgo singing`the blues IS health tested.
he`s clear by birth of
HC-HSF4	
L-2HGA
so if he`s clear by birth why exactly would he have to be screened for those conditions ?


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I saw the valgo dog as well, I think the problem (from memory) with blues is the leathers don't meet the breed standard, similar to the dudleys in Labradors, where the nose and skin round the eyes aren't black. I think that's right from reading about blue staffys in the past. I've just had a very quick peek at some adverts on CD for stud dogs, and I'm shocked to see some kennels promoting blues in the way they are, driving the fashion for them it sesems?


Not good is it.



diablo said:


> valgo singing`the blues IS health tested.
> he`s clear by birth of
> HC-HSF4
> L-2HGA
> so if he`s clear by birth why exactly would he have to be screened for those conditions ?


He's hereditary clear, that to me means he's not actually been tested himself. Why test when the parents are clear? To be extra safe I guess; I've been told it's good practice.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2012)

Galadriel17 said:


> Not good is it.
> 
> He's hereditary clear, that to me means he's not actually been tested himself. Why test when the parents are clear? To be extra safe I guess; I've been told it's good practice.


he`s been dna tested clear


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Im not very clued up but ill make it my mission to find out.
> 
> Would u like me to tell u the full story going bk to roxis grandparents and ur see how.a.kc stafd and kc reg mastive had pupz


No LOL - just find it hard to believe a blue has been made up to champion.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

diablo said:


> he`s been dna tested clear


Has be been tested for PHPV and screened annually for PPSC? PHPV - PPSC


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

According to the KC website the valglo dog has been tested, took me a couple of attempts to spell his name correctly though!



Galadriel17 said:


> To be extra safe I guess; I've been told it's good practice.


I will most likely retest Zasa for PRA if I decide to breed from her in the future, the original test that was developed by Optigen was faulty, and dogs were bred from that were clear that produced carriers and affecteds. Even now when the test is *proven* things can go wrong, anything is open to error, so for me, it's only responsible to retest ever generation or two, many won't bother though, they will rely on the cbp status for tests. I possibly won't retest for CNM as this is a condition that pups rarely survive through to adult hood, so depending on whatever health tests/status of the future dog I choose I'd maybe skip that one, I'd have to see how I felt about it when that decision is in front of me though.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2012)

Galadriel17 said:


> Has be been tested for PHPV and screened annually for PPSC? PHPV - PPSC


his sire i believe was tested for more conditions and the results were ; unaffected.
at the end of the day the dog mentioned has consistently produced healthy pups that were clear of those conditions , so everything there speaks for its self; breeders doing all they can to ensure healthy pups.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> According to the KC website the valglo dog has been tested, took me a couple of attempts to spell his name correctly though!
> 
> I will most likely retest Zasa for PRA if I decide to breed from her in the future, the original test that was developed by Optigen was faulty, and dogs were bred from that were clear that produced carriers and affecteds. Even now when the test is *proven* things can go wrong, anything is open to error, so for me, it's only responsible to retest ever generation or two, many won't bother though, they will rely on the cbp status for tests. I possibly won't retest for CNM as this is a condition that pups rarely survive through to adult hood, so depending on whatever health tests/status of the future dog I choose I'd maybe skip that one, I'd have to see how I felt about it when that decision is in front of me though.


OK, now I'm confused, it says hereditary clear and gives his DOB for the date on the KC website so am I wrong in think he hasn't actually had the test himself?


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2012)

Galadriel17 said:


> OK, now I'm confused, it says hereditary clear and gives his DOB for the date on the KC website so am I wrong in think he hasn't actually had the test himself?


says he`s DNA tested. if he`s clear by birth of L-2-HGA he does not need further testing for that. it`s not something he`s going to carry through his lines or fall sick with at a later date.
plus it does say he`s `heath tested` on CD site.
Valglo Singin' the Blues


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Galadriel17 said:


> OK, now I'm confused, it says hereditary clear and gives his DOB for the date on the KC website so am I wrong in think he hasn't actually had the test himself?


No, it's me having a blonde moment and not noticing the hereditary clear bit!


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

diablo said:


> his sire i believe was tested for more conditions and the results were ; unaffected.
> at the end of the day the dog mentioned has consistently produced healthy pups that were clear of those conditions , so everything there speaks for its self; breeders doing all they can to ensure healthy pups.


His sire, according to the KC website wasn't tested for l2 HGA or HC but genetically clear also, he did however have the eye tests it would seem.

The mode of inheritance with PHPV and PPSC is unclear so each dog to be used for breeding should always be tested IMO. For example, I was looking at a planned mating, it was going to be a first litter for the bitch so she had her eye tests before the mating was due to take place but unfortunately she didn't pass so now won't be bred from. Her sire and dam and all her littermates had been clear.

I'm glad he's produced pups clear of these conditions but it's not a chance I would've taken if he was mine.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2012)

Galadriel17 said:


> His sire, according to the KC website wasn't tested for l2 HGA or HC but genetically clear also, he did however have the eye tests it would seem.
> 
> The mode of inheritance with PHPV and PPSC is unclear so each dog to be used for breeding should always be tested IMO. For example, I was looking at a planned mating, it was going to be a first litter for the bitch so she had her eye tests before the mating was due to take place but unfortunately she didn't pass so now won't be bred from. Her sire and dam and all her littermates had been clear.
> 
> I'm glad he's produced pups clear of these conditions but it's not a chance I would've taken if he was mine.


i don`t know which site your looking on but the one i am looking on says he was tested clear for L2 HGA & HC , L2 HGA is the biggie for me , he were and the dogs he`s produced are genetically clear of that condition , if he`s clear by birth of that condition theres no point testing for it , as it means he`s clear by birth and isn`t a carrier for that condition! so no chance of producing pups with that condition unless of course he`s mated to a carrier! which would produce pups that carried that condition and pups that didn`t.
valgo are an excellent kennel and i can`t see why their breeding practices are being brought into question here.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

diablo said:


> says he`s DNA tested. if he`s clear by birth of L-2-HGA he does not need further testing for that. it`s not something he`s going to carry through his lines or fall sick with at a later date.
> plus it does say he`s `heath tested` on CD site.
> Valglo Singin' the Blues


You're right, but mistakes can happen. I personally would test anyway (it only costs just over £100) but then maybe I'm just a bit neurotic


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't know enough about the hereditary conditions for staffy's but if it were me I'd definitely retest each generation if the mode of inheritance for a condition was unclear. But I genuinely don't know enough about the conditions being discussed to comment with any real confidence. 

I only know of one person within Labradors who retests every generation for PRA, there may be others, but then they don't test for another hereditary condition which isn't widespread. People all have their own ideas of what is acceptable, and what should and shouldn't be tested for. Some wouldn't use a dog with a higher hip score than the BMS, whereas I would. I also chose to use a dog and was criticsed for the possibility of producing a dudley or two, whereas I personally liked the dog and wasn't willing to cut off part of the gene pool so as to avoid producing an undesirable pup or two for the show ring. The more health tests we have to use and abide by the results, the more gene pools are going to close up quickly, unless we accept that certain genetic conditions take precedence over others that aren't as debilitating, or perhaps don't have the chance of developing within the lifetime of a dog. I won't let colour put me off using a dog if there are no known associated health problems, when there are so many other things to consider. Anyway, off to get the girls out, lots to do today in amongst looking after pups, including the one dudley Tau produced, who has quite a following I might say


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> Although the red tops are perfectly adequate for lining a whelping box.


Way too much to do today to amuse myself by reading the whole thread, which is a shame, but I had to add that as a scouser, I wouldn't even line my cats' litter tray with the Sun


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

diablo said:


> i don`t know which site your looking on but the one i am looking on says he was tested clear for L2 HGA & HC , L2 HGA is the biggie for me , he were and the dogs he`s produced are genetically clear of that condition , if he`s clear by birth of that condition theres no point testing for it , as it means he`s clear by birth and isn`t a carrier for that condition! so no chance of producing pups with that condition unless of course he`s mated to a carrier! which would produce pups that carried that condition and pups that didn`t.
> valgo are an excellent kennel and i can`t see why their breeding practices are being brought into question here.


I'm not questioning their breeding practices, I'm saying, I personally would test each and every dog I was going to breed from. (Like I said, maybe I'm a bit neurotic about it  I'm aware that to produce L2 HGA affected pups, you have to mate carrier to carrier, carrier to affected or affected to affected) Not just for L2 HGA, I'd test for the other three that the breed council recommends too


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I was going to plough through this thread but I can`t bear text-speak. 
Can someone explain how it`s easier to write n e than to write any? It`s still 3 actions - letter / space / letter or 3 letters. :confused1:


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2012)

Galadriel17 said:


> You're right, but mistakes can happen. I personally would test anyway (it only costs just over £100) but then maybe I'm just a bit neurotic


mistakes can happen regarding L2 HGA ?? doubtful. 
if two clear dogs have been mated; they are NOT going to produce offspring with that condition , which is why when you look at some test results it says `clear by birth` so if a dog is clear by birth as it`s come from two clear dogs it is not all of a sudden going to fall sick or start to carry that condition. so if clear by birth , it`s noted on the pups documents so no need to test for that condition as the pup has come from two clear dogs.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't know enough about the hereditary conditions for staffy's but if it were me I'd definitely retest each generation if the mode of inheritance for a condition was unclear. But I genuinely don't know enough about the conditions being discussed to comment with any real confidence.
> 
> I only know of one person within Labradors who retests every generation for PRA, there may be others, but then they don't test for another hereditary condition which isn't widespread. People all have their own ideas of what is acceptable, and what should and shouldn't be tested for. Some wouldn't use a dog with a higher hip score than the BMS, whereas I would. I also chose to use a dog and was criticsed for the possibility of producing a dudley or two, whereas I personally liked the dog and wasn't willing to cut off part of the gene pool so as to avoid producing an undesirable pup or two for the show ring. The more health tests we have to use and abide by the results, the more gene pools are going to close up quickly, unless we accept that certain genetic conditions take precedence over others that aren't as debilitating, or perhaps don't have the chance of developing within the lifetime of a dog. I won't let colour put me off using a dog if there are no known associated health problems, when there are so many other things to consider. Anyway, off to get the girls out, lots to do today in amongst looking after pups, including the one dudley Tau produced, who has quite a following I might say


The mode of inheritance for L2 HGA and HC is clear, so I probably being OTT about that. It isn't clear however with PHPV or PPSC and although PHPV isn't progressive and PPSC doesn't usually lead to sight problems, I still think it's important to test for them. PPSC every year as it has a variable age of onset


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

diablo said:


> mistakes can happen regarding L2 HGA ?? doubtful.
> if two clear dogs have been mated; they are NOT going to produce offspring with that condition , which is why when you look at some test results it says `clear by birth` so if a dog is clear by birth as it`s come from two clear dogs it is not all of a sudden going to fall sick or start to carry that condition. so if clear by birth , it`s noted on the pups documents so no need to test for that condition as the pup has come from two clear dogs.


What happens if someone gets the results mixed up at the Laboratory? It *could* happen, and it would only be spotted if the condition manifested itself.

Tau's sire had been tested for PRA, but I tested as his results haven't been submitted to the KC, so aren't on their database, so it wouldn't show that the pups are CBP.

Also, genes mutate, what happens over time, will these conditions reappear in different forms? And will the only way we find out is by dogs suddenly suffering from hereditary conditions again? I am not sure exactly about genetics, I have to read it all every time as it is such a confusing subject for me, but I trust science only so far, I wouldn't rely on it over numerous generations that's for sure.

Right, really am off out with the girls now! Inbetween rain showers, did I miss summer?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> mistakes can happen regarding L2 HGA ?? doubtful.


Which labs are used for this test?

I generally agree, but the fact is that nothing is foolproof where human error is a possibility. There have been a few (albeit not many) cases of dna tests that were given a clear result and have later been found to be wrong, so I do think it is prudent to retest a dog that is hereditary clear every few generations or if using a carrier/affected.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> What happens if someone gets the results mixed up at the Laboratory? It *could* happen, and it would only be spotted if the condition manifested itself.
> 
> Tau's sire had been tested for PRA, but I tested as his results haven't been submitted to the KC, so aren't on their database, so it wouldn't show that the pups are CBP.
> 
> ...


i don`t think that`s happened to date. thats a big *if*.
you only have to look at what the aforementioned kennel are consistently producing , speaks volumes if you go through every top kennel on CD they don`t all test for the conditions mentioned  the main ones being HC and L2 HGA. i`m not saying it`s right , just fact.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Which labs are used for this test?


personally i have no idea , as i don`t breed and don`t own staffs.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> i don`t think that`s happened to date. thats a big *if*.


I can't comment on these tests, but can tell you it has happened in labradors. Both in health and coat colour inheritance tests. Good breeders who use the tests in good faith, but evidence from progeny prompting a retest show the initial results were wrong. It's rare, but nothing is completely foolproof.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> I can't comment on these tests, but can tell you it has happened in labradors. Both in health and coat colour inheritance tests. Good breeders who use the tests in good faith, but evidence from progeny prompting a retest show the initial results were wrong. It's rare, but nothing is completely foolproof.


just found the info.
L-2-HGA (L-2-hydroxyglutaric aciduria) | Animal Health Trust
my point being , information being incorrect. 
mentioned dog were tested via DNA tests [as far as i am aware reading that only a DNA test can prove , clear , carrier , affected; [reading the above info] i`m always happy to be proved wrong but before putting information out there i would always check whether it`s right first as i wouldn`t want to leave myself open to a big fat lawsuit


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

diablo said:


> i don`t think that`s happened to date. thats a big *if*.
> you only have to look at what the aforementioned kennel are consistently producing , speaks volumes if you go through every top kennel on CD they don`t all test for the conditions mentioned  the main ones being HC and L2 HGA. i`m not saying it`s right , just fact.


How do you know it hasn't happened? We have had mistakes with the test for PRA with Labradors, where the initial results were false, because of an error with the actual test itself. This was soon rectified however, in the meantime dogs had been bred using an incorrect status, and producing pups that were either carriers or affected status.

I personally won't rely on science 100% of the time where genetic tests are concerned, I just don't think it's wise to stick all your eggs in one basket like that.

Not everyone in Labradorss tests for all the conditions, as I said in a post further back, everyone has their own personal experience and interpretations of the different conditions and what is important to test for. I haven't used narcolepsy or dwarfism tests which are available, but just aren't a problem within Labradors as far as I know. I also wouldn't test for EIC right this minute, partly because i don't think the test is yet *ready* in that there is talk that there could be a test for the trigger for the condition in the pipeline, which may make it a more reliable and informative result. It just so happens the stud dog I used had the test done, albeit by a means the KC doesn't accept the results for. I wouldn't criticise someone if they personally don't believe or have faith in a test, if they had a valid reason not to.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I think going into too much detail here will turn so many people off.

I know when it comes down to it, if looking for a puppy I would research breed and find out health tests available and recommended. When looking at breeders I would expect evidence of health tests or plausible explanation of why they were not done. At the very least to prove the breeder has considered the tests and has a good reason not to do it (cost not being one). It would then be my choice to accept their reasoning or not.

Not that it's going to happen. Think we will always rescue.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Goblin said:


> I think going into too much detail here will turn so many people off.
> 
> I know when it comes down to it, if looking for a puppy I would research breed and find out health tests available and recommended. When looking at breeders *I would expect evidence of health tests or plausible explanation of why they were not done.* At the very least to prove the breeder has considered the tests and has a good reason not to do it (cost not being one). It would then be my choice to accept their reasoning or not.
> 
> Not that it's going to happen. Think we will always rescue.


Part of my puppy pack is exactly that, not just a scanned and printed copy of the health test, but an explanation of the tests available, and why I have or haven't used them.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Not bothered reading this thread. Glanced at the first page and knew where it would go...

glad you don't dissapoint guys!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Not bothered reading this thread. Glanced at the first page and knew where it would go...
> 
> glad you don't dissapoint guys!


I`m glad I`m not the only one who posts to say that they`re not posting....:lol:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

anniekassier said:


> yes, people need to wake up and get a reality check


And some people need to read the whole thread before they perhaps miss the point


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

anniekassier said:


> yes, people need to wake up and get a reality check





Sleeping_Lion said:


> And some people need to read the whole thread before they perhaps miss the point


Or just wake up and stop the poor attempt at trolling.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoggieBag said:


> Or just wake up and stop the poor attempt at trolling.


I was kind of giving them the benefit of the doubt with that one, maybe


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I was kind of giving them the benefit of the doubt with that one, maybe


Googling the user name shows them to be a troll and/or spammer. 

High number of forums joined as of late. Then just look at their posts here, just short pointless comments. Show no obvious signs of having read the thread, just commenting on the title or 1st post.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoggieBag said:


> Googling the user name shows them to be a troll and/or spammer.
> 
> High number of forums joined as of late. Then just look at their posts here, just short pointless comments. Show no obvious signs of having read the thread, just commenting on the title or 1st post.


I'm far too trusting!


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi im back. 
Ill make a coffee and tell u my story 
But first can someone please tell me what a troll on here is please as ive heard this term now as a mum i always thouht a troll was either a cute cuddly kids toy with random.spikeu hair or a mean old thing under the brigde lol. 
And sorry i do txt talk its easyer on my phone.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Hi im back.
> Ill make a coffee and tell u my story
> But first can someone please tell me what a troll on here is please as ive heard this term now as a mum i always thouht a troll was either a cute cuddly kids toy with random.spikeu hair or a mean old thing under the brigde lol.
> And sorry i do txt talk its easyer on my phone.


Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natzzhixon said:


> Hi im back.
> Ill make a coffee and tell u my story
> But first can someone please tell me what a troll on here is please as ive heard this term now as a mum i always thouht a troll was either a cute cuddly kids toy with random.spikeu hair or a mean old thing under the brigde lol.
> And sorry i do txt talk its easyer on my phone.


It's someone who posts to provoke a response, and they do it in a way they know will provoke a reaction. Spammers are people who post to try and promote something, often their posts won't make sense but will contain links to other websites.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It's what everyone thought you were originally


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Ah now it makes sense. 
I must sometimes come across this way
But doing my best to show im not.
If i am put me in my place ill re read and see your point.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

rona said:


> It's what everyone thought you were originally


Haha i remember. I.just thought people were being bitchy


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Natzzhixon said:


> Haha i remember. I.just thought people were being bitchy


Nah, there's a few of them here but mainly they are in our homes in canine form 

Most of us are softies really, though we can have hard exteriors if needs be


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Haha im glad.


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Are we getting this brief story about how you got Roxi (i.e her parents and grandparents) that you promised?


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Breif ohhhh no ur get full story.
Sorry ive had a manics day and a family emergency so ive had to look.on here as ive been.smoking as ive acumilated an xtra toddler...


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Ok here we go.
Roxis nan is a blue staff and her grandfather is a french mastive. Both are kc registered. 
There owned by a mum and her son. They lived in seperate houses. Till the son split with his g.f and the staff was better off with the son. The son was due to.mate his blue staff with another nlue staff. So wen the female came into.season nappies were applied and seperate rooms
The mum and son went over to the hospital as the boys father was taken ill and there was a break in wich the dogs ended up breading.
The puppys were delivered by c section.

The story takes a nasty turn.
The mum and son were at a funeral of the sons father and.while they were out someone broke in and stole 3 male 6 week old puppies. 
The insurance company payed for advertisment and reward money if pups were found bit.they never were. This left 2 female puppys. He kept one and then gave one to a friend.who had recently.lost her dog from old age this was my Roxis mum

She then.ignorantly yes bread with another blue staff and Roxi was norn.


Now ive told you this.ill explain my story


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

Natzzhixon said:


> Ok here we go.
> Roxis nan is a blue staff and her grandfather is a french mastive. Both are kc registered.
> There owned by a mum and her son. They lived in seperate houses. Till the son split with his g.f and the staff was better off with the son. The son was due to.mate his blue staff with another nlue staff. So wen the female came into.season nappies were applied and seperate rooms
> The mum and son went over to the hospital as the boys father was taken ill and there was a break in wich the dogs ended up breading.
> ...


So they suffered 2 break ins?


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

*[/Ok my story
After 3 years of being chased by spiders by my daughter. We finally decided to get a.dog for her and my 2 other children.
A friend of mine had 1 female staffs and i was talking to him about it.
One day i got a message explaining how he had bread his girl and had pupz. His g.f wanted one so she ke her. They split up 4 weeks b4 this message and one.day.she.dumpes the dog off with him and due to work reasons he couldnt take her wih him.
So he offered us a weeks trial and we decides to keep her. Unfortunately the girl found out and.demanded her back. He appologised and said wen he bread his girl he would.give us.a.puppy coz he felt so bad. But we would have to pay for papers if we wanted them.
He decided not to bread her as he was offered a better job and didnt have time.
So i.was sad.........
My.friend.had recently had a litter of puppies and i saw them.alot and fell in.love with one Roxi
Then.on.valentines.day this.yr my.partner came home 
With.Roxi.*


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

Yes police believe its someone they no as they knew wen they were out and the dogs mist.of.known.them as they didnt.bark


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

So thats 2 different stories on how you got the dog?

And you got her because your daughter was chased by spiders?

Am I the only one confused here?


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

1st story is how roxi came about 
2nd story is how i got roxi
Please re read it...... My daughter chased me wiv spiders it was friendly banter.


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## Natzzhixon (Jun 8, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> So thats 2 different stories on how you got the dog?
> 
> And you got her because your daughter was chased by spiders?
> 
> Am I the only one confused here?


Right ive read my posts several times and i can not see how this is confusing.
It clearly states roxis story my story

AND CLEARLY STATES MY DAUGHTER CHASING ME HMMMM NOW IM WONDERING IF ITS EASYER TO JUST GIVE UP :mad2:


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