# Help Required - Awful 1 y/o lab



## MatthewT (Sep 20, 2009)

Hello.
So my family have had a black labrador named Bradley for about a year now.
When we first got him, he was as you'd expect, going to the toilet everywhere, whining constantly, always wanting attention, etc.
We took him to a session of training classes around October time. He learned to sit, heel, the basics really but would only ever do it if treats were held right in front of its face, which is not really abnormal I think.
We've been trying on and off to train him ever since the classes, and things don't seem to be working. I mean, he'll do things when there's the immediate promise of reward and only then. His whole attitude is just terrible, he has no respect for any of us.
We've been told the usual things, like making sure that we eat first at mealtimes, only feed him so much, walk through doors first, etc. but they don't really seem to be working.
He also seems to enjoy jumping up and biting. He's a very big dog, even if he was fully grown (my friend has adult labs and they are quite a bit smaller, as are other labs nearby). He's been doing it for a while and we've been trying to train him out of it by shouting NO!, stopping play, leaving and then coming back a few minutes later with a completely changed attitude, which seems to work sometimes, but very often his mood will completely change within a second, eg. he'll start to bite during play/petting, for example. 

I am 17 and pretty tall, at least 6ft2, and earlier this evening he jumped up to my face. I would be ok if he tried to bite me, I am just very worried if he tried to bite my sisters or my mum, all much smaller, and my mum is the only one at home during the day, looking after my 2y/o brother.
We don't want to wait until its too late, but at the same time don't want to just give up on the dog and get rid of him too soon without trying to stop this behaviour.
He's been 'fixed' so it's unlikely to be anything to do with hormones.

Any help will be much appreciated.


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## sophiew (Sep 20, 2009)

I've got a bigger than average black lab too, he's 8 years old now and still not placid!

It sounds from your description that your boy is exuberant, boisterous and wilful but that's not necessarily the same as aggressive.

How much exercise is he getting? Not just in terms of hours but in terms of mental stimulation - they are working dogs, they need a lot of it! If he's got excess energy to burn off, he's more likely to jump up and be obnoxious.

Waving treats in front of his face isn't the answer, as you say, if he'll only 'obey' when there is the immediate chance of some food. But used correctly, treats are a powerful training tool especially for food motivated dogs like labs. It might be that you need to find a trainer to work one to one with you, or a new training class. What does your instructor suggest?

Sophie
x


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Ok.. for one.. ''We've been trying on and off to train him ever since the classes''

You can't just not feel like training a dog one day and doing some the next... training is something that needs to be kept constant, you need to do it every single day!

for example.. if some days you try to train him to stay off the sofa, but some days you let him on it because you aren't training that day... he will get really confused as to wether he is allowed or not.. 

Have you thought about going back to class with him? waving treats infront of his face is not really teaching him to ''obey'', it's teaching him he can ignore you if there is no food... What about clicker training? Hide the treat and once you have got him obeying you more, you can start to randomly treat so he doesn't know if a treat is coming or not.


Labs do need heaps of exercise and not just walking or running in a field. On top of at least two 45 min walks (minimum) a day I would encourage him to play games like ''seek'', labs have extremely good noses and it will get his brain going too, looking for hidden items.

Get him to work for his food too... scatter it on the lawn, hide it under pots, in boxes.

When he jumps up, you need to be consistent with what method you use, and this needs to be carried out every single time he does it, so either turning away and ignoring him, or walking out the room and shutting the door, or outting him out the room. Then do not encourage him to play or interact with you, just ignore him a while until he is completely calm. Encourage him to do cal activiteis like chewing on a bone. Grooming him should also be a calming activity to enjoy together.

x


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## KarenHSmith (Apr 20, 2008)

I was always told, to put your knee up, when dogs try to get into your face - when my GSD gets excited, I tend to do this. He no longers does as much to me anymore - it doesn't hurt them xx

Hope this helps xx


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## MatthewT (Sep 20, 2009)

We don't really have an instructor, and getting professional help, although definitely a good idea, is not an option at the moment.

Thank you for your quick reply.
Yes, I think you might (definitely) have something there.
He gets 2 walks of about 2 miles every day, usually 3 on the weekends and goes off the lead in the woods whenever we can.
How exactly would we stimulate the dog's mind? He has several toys in his room (well, it's the front hall, there's nowhere really else for him to go, but he has his own crate that he seems to like and we shut him in when he misbehaves).

We have a clicker, which we try to use but it is very often the case that he still does not obey.
What should we do about the clicker? If he does not obey, should we keep giving the command, or wait until he obeys? As I'm sure you can imagine, having a big family it is very hectic and we don't have all day to wait around for him to obey, especially because he just finds interest in everything and forgets about the command.

Also, we have a halti lead, which goes around the dog's neck and face, which helps with the pulling but he seems to like to rub his head against things to try and get it off. Probably not relevant, I just thought people should know as much as possible.


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## sophiew (Sep 20, 2009)

The trouble with some labs is that even negative attention i.e pushing him away, telling him 'NO' is good attention as far as he's concerned! Mine certainly thinks so. The best thing you can do is to stay calm and not give him any attention for the bad behaviour - easier said than done!


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## sophiew (Sep 20, 2009)

MatthewT said:


> We don't really have an instructor, and getting professional help, although definitely a good idea, is not an option at the moment.
> 
> Thank you for your quick reply.
> Yes, I think you might (definitely) have something there.
> ...


That's a good amount of physical exercise, but if he's off 'doing his own thing' and entertaining himself, it's not building a bond between you - he's just using you! You need to interact with him throughout the walk - get him 'hooked' on a favourite toy, and only use it for walks / training. He shouldn't have free access to it otherwise. With my lab, I drop toys as we walk and send him to track back and find them - he loves it. They've got great noses. Hide and seek / search games are a great favourite.

You could try him on a programme like NILIF - Nothing In Life is Free! Which makes him 'earn' his privleges - if you google it, some useful stuff will come up.

Haltis have their uses but my lab was the same and would rub to get it off (quite painfully). Practise walking on a loose lead in the garden, rather than when he's pulling to get to some loose lead activity on a walk.

He sounds like a normal active lab to me - but you need to harness the energy and change your relationship with him into a much more positive one before he becomes too much for you. You talk very negatively about him - he's not 'awful' from what you've written, he's just a pup who hasn't been chanelled correctly (yet) and I bet with the right input from you he will be what labs should be - a brilliant family dog!

Sophie
x


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2009)

Back to basics would be my advice.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

He is still very much a puppy at 1 

All the labs i know are super boisterous and super smart 

Training really takes a long time. Oscar is 10 months and we are still working hard on recall and heel and there are still times when i can't do a thing with him because he has the wind up his tail and a scent in his nose 

I am wondering if you could revisit training classes, go back to the beginning and talk to the trainer about the problems you are having.

They are the best people to assess his behaviour and advise as they will be able to see how you interact together.

Have you tried a squeaky ball instead of treats as a training aid, or maybe he would respond well to clicker training


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## MatthewT (Sep 20, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> He is still very much a puppy at 1
> 
> All the labs i know are super boisterous and super smart
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's quite encouraging. I just fear for my family when he's in a horrible mood, really.
How exactly would using a squeaky ball work? Make it squeak instead of giving a treat, or give it him to play with?
Also, how exactly should we go about clicker training? At the classes they told us to click as soon as he performs an action so he knows that he's been good, and then follow this up with a treat.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2009)

And to add, you need to be consistant, I seriously would go back to stage one, I am expecting like most labs he is driven by food which makes training very easy, he will now be passing through the teenageer stage, which can be a bit of a bummer, firm but kind and by this time next year the reward should be a well trained dog to be proud of.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

MatthewT said:


> Thanks, that's quite encouraging. I just fear for my family when he's in a horrible mood, really.
> How exactly would using a squeaky ball work? Make it squeak instead of giving a treat, or give it him to play with?
> Also, how exactly should we go about clicker training? At the classes they told us to click as soon as he performs an action so he knows that he's been good, and then follow this up with a treat.


I have just started with a ball with Oscar and am using it just for recall as it seems to cut through the distractions in the park.

First step is to make the squeaky ball fun, get 2 and then throw one, then when he gets it squeak the other. Just have fun and then encorporate the ball into training as a reward. You may even be able to use it to distract this unwanted behaviour.

Be warned though he it may just be too exciting for him and could escalate the behaviour so just have fun with it at first and see how it goes.

I have no idea about clicker training but it just sounds like it might be good in your circumstance. If you do a seperate thread i am sure there are a few peeps on here who use it and can advise you.

I really do recommend you re visit your trainer or find another class  You really are at the peak of his terrible teens so he needs firmer management than when he was a puppy.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Smarty Pants said:


> And to add, you need to be consistant, I seriously would go back to stage one, I am expecting like most labs he is driven by food which makes training very easy, he will now be passing through the teenageer stage, which can be a bit of a bummer, firm but kind and by this time next year the reward should be a well trained dog to be proud of.


LOL. We seem to be saying the same things here


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

He sounds exactly like my 1 year old lab.
However, it's constant constant training and stimulation every single day. And even after all that he still has a lot of energy.
He does jump up and nip us, a lot of the time out of excitement when we've been playing with him and also does it in the garden, but he doesn't do it as much as he used to, so we're getting there.
At this point, we stop all play and put him in time out, behind a baby gate in the kitchen.

Also lead walking, he pulls, I use a gentle leader, which is also a head collar, but I am putting in the effort to train him to heel, getting him back by my side, as a head collar shouldn't be used as a quick fix. 

But yes, he is still a puppy, I've met labs that are two years old and they are still very excitable.
Don't give up on him, I would also advise training classes, I hopefully will be taking my Lab to classes very soon.


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## sophiew (Sep 20, 2009)

The point of clicker training is first to teach that dog that click = treat will follow -you have to 'load' the clicker first - i.e click, then treat immediately (with something tasty, not just dry food! Liver cake, etc) lots of times until the dog hears the click and is expecting the treat... once he knows this, you can use the 'click' to mark the behaviour you want to reinforce (whatever that is, although it's best initially to click on one thing). For example, if you want your dog to not jump up when someone comes to the door, you use the clicker to reinforce a behaviour that you want to replace it with (sitting calmly, or lying on his bed).

The trick is in the timing, the click has to come at exactly the right moment or you could inadvertantly reward the wrong behaviour. An example - I was trying to teach my dog to stand on command, and unfortunately as I clicked him for standing, he barked at the same instant -it took him a frustrating amount of trial and error before he realised it wasn't the barking I wanted!

A clicker is a powerful tool in the right hands - I recommend you find a clicker class or read up on it (there are a few clicker training websites) if it's something that appeals to you.

The other thing is that the reward doesn't have to be a treat, with clicker training - it could be as suggested, a ball or toy, if that is more motivating for your dog

Sophie
x


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

*We have a clicker, which we try to use but it is very often the case that he still does not obey.
What should we do about the clicker? If he does not obey, should we keep giving the command, or wait until he obeys? As I'm sure you can imagine, having a big family it is very hectic and we don't have all day to wait around for him to obey, especially because he just finds interest in everything and forgets about the command*

well if you dont have the time to train or "wait around" you shouldnt have gt the pup!(not being nasty just stating obvious) still...u have gotta take time out every day be firm you will get there seems to me he doesnt have a domenant ruler and therefor he thinks hes dominant! u need to put him in his place so u are "alpha dog" what you say goes...as for sitting, lying down, stop jumping etc be firm only treat when he does good! you wil get there take your time and take time out for the trainin one on one only x


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

MatthewT said:


> Hello.
> So my family have had a black labrador named Bradley for about a year now.
> When we first got him, he was as you'd expect, going to the toilet everywhere, whining constantly, always wanting attention, etc.
> We took him to a session of training classes around October time. He learned to sit, heel, the basics really but would only ever do it if treats were held right in front of its face, which is not really abnormal I think.


What you have done is the classic mistake of confusing reward with bribery.

The reward should depend on the cue being obeyed, rather than the action being reliant on a treat being in sight.


> We've been trying on and off to train him ever since the classes,


Training isn't something you can do on and off - especially when you're trying to teach something new. Even commands a dog "knows" need to be practised, even when they've been generalised and proofed in loads of different locations/places/circumstances.



> We've been told the usual things, like making sure that we eat first at mealtimes, only feed him so much, walk through doors first, etc. but they don't really seem to be working.


No, they won't work because these sorts of rank reduction things mean nothing to the dog. You need to teach him what you DO want him to do, rather than concentrating on what you DON'T.



> He also seems to enjoy jumping up and biting. He's a very big dog, even if he was fully grown (my friend has adult labs and they are quite a bit smaller, as are other labs nearby). He's been doing it for a while and we've been trying to train him out of it by shouting NO!, stopping play, leaving and then coming back a few minutes later with a completely changed attitude, which seems to work sometimes, but very often his mood will completely change within a second, eg. he'll start to bite during play/petting, for example.


Do a search on here for bite inhibition/jumping up and/or Google for training articles. Shouting won't work because again, it teaches the dog nothing - other than that when he jumps up all excited, YOU get all excited too; which will make the problem worse.



> We don't want to wait until its too late, but at the same time don't want to just give up on the dog and get rid of him too soon without trying to stop this behaviour.
> .


There is no need to "get rid of him" if you are serious about wanting to learn how to train him. There is LOADS on the net about how to teach him to behave in the way you want him to - there is also loads about clicker training.


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## Buggles (Jul 14, 2009)

Firstly, dog's don't do respect. They don't know what respect is.

I think you really need to go right back to the beginning with house training (so outside every 20 minutes). 

Does he have plenty of toys? Do you change them around often (so if he has lots of toys, only give gim 2 or 3 of them at a time and then the following day give him 2 or 3 different toys so he doesnt get bored of them)

Training needs to be consistent. 5 or so minute sessions 2 or 3 times a day but only do one behaviour at a time (so concentrate on SIT during one session etc)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Some very good advice on here, I'll just add a couple of thoughts as I was scrolling through.

You shouldn't repeat commands, if the dog understands what is expected of it, then it should react to the first command. Repeating commands only teaches a dog how long it can ignore you for. The one caveat with this, is that the dog does actually have to know what the command means. The majority of people with a recall don't actually have a dog that responds to 'come', 'here' or whatever, they have a dog that responds to the word and some physical indication from you - beckoning, holding arms out etc. A useful way to find out if a dog knows a command is to stand with your back to it, arms by sides, and give the verbal/whistle command. 

Shouting at a big boisterous Labrador won't make one iota of a difference, particularly if you do it constantly, the dog just becomes used to that level of noise. You could be shouting 'pink fluffy bunnies' for all the dog knows, it won't understand. I do use a growly voice with mine as a reminder when I know they are sticking the proverbial finger up at me, and it works, because the rest of the time I have a calm and quiet voice with them. If mine weren't sure of a command, then raising the volume won't help them to understand it, repeating the training will, and they do like to get it right.

One final bit of advice is that if your dog won't work for anything but food, you've possibly not been shown how to use play reward correctly. As I've said above, dogs love getting it right, my two (Labrador bitches) rarely get a food reward for anything training related, it's the actual 'doing' they enjoy.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Id say find a decent trainer, one that trains labs. It may cost a litle more but having one that understands and has worked with the breed will benefit endlessly - just to point the training is 75% about you and the rest about your dog, so dont think simply because youve attended lessons your dog knows what its doing (dont take that the wrong way  ). If you can find one that doesnt use treats this will help you to realise when your dog is doing what its asked and why - what your doing to make it do what its doing (wanting it to do or not). It really only sounds like pup problems, I dont train every day and my boys cool though if he does start doing his own thing I just go back to regular heelwork and mix in so more difficult commands to keep him keen.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I will give you another perspective......

Your dog behaves this way because he doesn't respect you. The person who said "dogs don't respect" is wrong. All animals know how to show respect.

Getting respect must come from you. When your dog does not see you as the "boss" you will get problems. 

Walking through door ways, eating first etc etc are fine, but being the "boss" comes from within you. You can do all the "alpha" behaviours which people advise, but the bottom line is if you are not projecting the right energy, all day and everyday, then you will not suceed, no matter how many door ways you walk through first.

You have been given some great advice from a "training" perspective. This is one way of "training" your dog to behave. However, if you are interested in finding out more, check out my profile page and PM me if you want any further info.

x


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I do feel though we must not "over analize" exhuberant puppy play and more good solid basic training and a bit less "alpha role phsycholgy" is the key.

With good solid basics comes connection to your dog, mutual respect and an understanding that you are there to protect and guide them


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

clicker training works well for labs. iv seen labs at 14/15 years of age pick it up in 5 mins, it will give him something to think about (making him quieter) and help you grow closer to your dog, you can also teach some really great tricks. I have friends whos dogs can fetch cans of beer out the fridge on command. lol. 

To be honest he sounds like a typical lab to me. labs are thought of as being quite calm and well behaved but actually most of them are complete nutters. mental stimulation and training you dog to be calm, ie rewarding it for lying down out the way or accepting gentle fuss etc. are probably the best bets, if your dog gets rewarded for being calm hes more likely to do it, when he plays up ignore him completly, dont speak to him or talk to him. 

you need to make sure everyone sticks to the routine and keep doing it until he gets it, labs are smart, it shouldnt take too long.


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I will give you another perspective......
> 
> Your dog behaves this way because he doesn't respect you. The person who said "dogs don't respect" is wrong. All animals know how to show respect.
> 
> ...


Great post.
I see it exactly as you do,only i'm rubbish at explaining anything :blushing:


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## RohanCarthy (Sep 13, 2009)

My only advice is keep trying to stay positive and 'light' around your pup. I'm still on the learning curve with our lab puppy but I have realised that when I get more and more frustrated with him he seems to act up even more.

If I change my tone and get him involved in a game he really responds well.

I know its not easy though. I've given Rohan a new chew while I was doing a bit of work online this morning and went to check only to discover the chew barely touched and a big chunk out of the skirting board. I took him outside, he didn't go but then wee'd twice in the house, followed by a nice five minutes of bouncing off every bit of furniture with a fridge magnet in his mouth. Trying to get me to chase him.

Rather than loosing my temper I coaxed him to me with a toy to get the magnet back and spent ten minutes doing a bit of basic training as he seems to enjoy it, he's now asleep on my feet as I type.

There are times when he has me tearing my hair out but that's puppies and why we love them!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> I do feel though we must not "over analize" exhuberant puppy play and more good solid basic training and a bit less "alpha role phsycholgy" is the key.
> 
> With good solid basics comes connection to your dog, mutual respect and an understanding that you are there to protect and guide them


Agree, but I think far too often people do not instill enough discipline in their dogs. I think as a nation we are useless at it. We give far too much fuss and a lack leadership, and this causes problems.

If a dog is way too excitable, in my opinion, it is either not being physically and mentally stimulated or it does not have enough respect for the handler.

As you know rainy, alpha and leadership, to me go hand in hand x


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Agree, but I think far too often people do not instill enough discipline in their dogs. I think as a nation we are useless at it. We give far too much fuss and a lack leadership, and this causes problems.
> 
> If a dog is way too excitable, in my opinion, it is either not being physically and mentally stimulated or it does not have enough respect for the handler.
> 
> As you know rainy, alpha and leadership, to me go hand in hand x




It's just the terms of phrase i suppose isn't it.

Decent basic commands are the foundation of everything IMO and you have to reinforce them again and again, every day with a puppy and by doing that you are showing Leadership 

I often find if Oscar is being a pain in the neck i can get him in a sit which is his most solid command, then i can do something with him again.

I agree about discipline too


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> It's just the terms of phrase i suppose isn't it.
> 
> Decent basic commands are the foundation of everything IMO and you have to reinforce them again and again, every day with a puppy and by doing that you are showing Leadership
> 
> ...


I think the trouble with me is I say it in quite harsh terms. It is why I get a lot of people opposing me! lol They do actually agree with what I say, but because I dare  to use the dominance word, I get dragged across the coals!

I am actually much better, because I use far less Cesar speak. Although I still agree with everything he does.

Only time I use "cesar speak" is when I want to get a reaction, usually I get this from colliepoodle! lol


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> I think the trouble with me is I say it in quite harsh terms. It is why I get a lot of people opposing me! lol They do actually agree with what I say, but because I dare  to use the dominance word, I get dragged across the coals!
> 
> I am actually much better, because I use far less Cesar speak. Although I still agree with everything he does.
> 
> Only time I use "cesar speak" is when I want to get a reaction, usually I get this from colliepoodle! lol


Yes, you'll certainly get a reaction by saying you agree with everything he does. You do? Really? Even when he's pinning a dog down by its collar to the point of suffocation? When he's forcing a dog to do something it finds so stressful that it urinates in fright? When he dangles a dog by its collar? When dogs are showing, through every pore, that they are either terrified or have completely shut down (what Cesar would call "calm submission"  )?

Yep, when I see any sort of animal abuse, I'll react.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Sorry that made me laugh, it was like it was on cue


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Sorry that made me laugh, it was like it was on cue


LOL told you!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Yes, you'll certainly get a reaction by saying you agree with everything he does. You do? Really? Even when he's pinning a dog down by its collar to the point of suffocation? When he's forcing a dog to do something it finds so stressful that it urinates in fright? When he dangles a dog by its collar? When dogs are showing, through every pore, that they are either terrified or have completely shut down (what Cesar would call "calm submission"  )?
> 
> Yep, when I see any sort of animal abuse, I'll react.


Ah but what you see as abuse, I see as rehabilitation. Anyway, we've had this conversation too many times colliepoodle lol


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> LOL told you!


Yeah I'd LOL too if I hadn't got the image of some of Cesars victims in my head...


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Yeah I'd LOL too if I hadn't got the image of some of Cesars victims in my head...


Once upon a time I would get drawn in to these conversations, now I know that it doesn't matter how much you try to explain something, people see things differently......


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Once upon a time I would get drawn in to these conversations, now I know that it doesn't matter how much you try to explain something, people see things differently......


Yes - some things are just indefensible.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Yes - some things are just indefensible.


Does beg the question as to why such animal cruelty is allowed to be aired on TV? Especially when we have legislation protecting our animals against cruelty. Maybe it's his dazzling white teeth that have everyone convinced...... lol


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Does beg the question as to why such animal cruelty is allowed to be aired on TV? Especially when we have legislation protecting our animals against cruelty. Maybe it's his dazzling white teeth that have everyone convinced...... lol


Because TV producers know little, and probably care less, about what constitutes cruelty. What they care about is what is going to get viewers. And when 99% of those viewers are indeed dazzled by those white teeth and that charisma, in addition to knowing little about dog body language, then people like Cesar get away with it. Personally I'd rather watch a proper trainer/behaviourist at work - but most people want action and drama. A course of desensitisation, counter-conditioning and rehabilitation/training wouldn't appeal to most casual viewers. They want to see Cesar risk getting bitten. Understandable enough - I only watch the ice-skating in the hope of seeing someone fall over.

Remember, parents are often shown on Supernanny hitting their kids, pre-Supernanny. They don't get arrested for child cruelty either.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Can i very nicely suggest you two take this to another time or place, it's not helping the OP


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Well, you know - if someone mentions someone's name in a post, hoping to get a reaction, and they get a reaction from that person, then they can't really complain


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

There is some truly excellent advice in this thread and I would hope that for the sake of your dog's future you take the time to put it into practice.

Your young lab really doesn't sound any different to my own, but I quickly learned that his general behavior was entirely dependent on his energy level and the amount of stimulation he has had. 

Labradors have masses of energy and so of course need plenty of exercise but you need to bear in mind that they are also extremely intelligent animals that need lots of mental stimulation too. Jasper tends to have a daily session with me as well as a shorter one with my son. When I take him out I try to keep it as varied as possible, one day he'll be rooting through the undergrowth in a forrest and the next day we will just be playing fetch on the field next to the house. In order for him to 'earn' these privileges though he has to work for them, if he wants to carry on running through the trees he has to demonstrate how good his recall is or if he wants the ball thrown for him again he has to walk close to me etc. Training in itself can be a great reward.

This is a great way of training because it uses his most favorite things (apart from food!) as positive reinforcement for responding to his given commands. The only thing he loves more than play is attention, which includes just being close to me and so this is the only negative training tool that I use. By that I mean I withdraw that attention when he is not doing what he is told, or is doing something he shouldn't be. If he won't give up the ball for me to throw then I walk away, I stop the game. If he wants to be close and have a cuddle then he knows not to lick my face because as soon as he does, the cuddle is over.

Give your dog constructive exercise, give him a job to do and something to think about and I am sure you will soon start to get along just fine.


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Jaspers Bloke

Just want to say what a truely helpful and inspiring comment.

All the training/psycho stuff in the world and you have explained what exactly it all comes down to.

Labs are known to be notoriously slow to mature, but be consistent, be in control and keep at it and it will all turn out right in the end.


Kate


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

Mine's just passed his 1 year mark and yes, this is the point people give up on their dogs. Don't, it will pass. Use perseverance and patience and he'll come out of adolescence a happy dog. You're 17 so you probably know what I mean, how you behave for your parents.

The difference between you and a dog is the intelligence level. A dog isn't smart enough to be rebellious but sometimes it does seem like it. Remember that he's an animal, you're a human and you have different ways of having fun.

So first of all the jumping/biting. That's common play fighting for dogs but obviously not acceptable for humans. By shouting and pushing him, he sees you playing with him which he likes so carries on. Instead of reacting, stand tall (against a wall can help for stability) Keep your legs apart for balance and just look away keeping your arms out of reach (not above your head as they'll often try). He doesn't know that humans have a lower pain threshold so it's not a matter of disrespect, it's a matter of fun. It is tough, Shadow and I go through a similar routine when I go to bed, he usually beats me there and I need to push him off which he sees as playing, I see as being cold. A shout to a dog no matter what word sounds like a bark. (also why shouting when he's barking makes him worse rather than quiet. I wish my neighbour would learn this trick). If you're feeling brave, one thing I use to emphasise 'no' to biting is to hold his mouth shut, look him in the eye, give a stern (not loud) 'No' then walk away. This may cause bites so you choose whether or not to use it and face any consequences. All my past dogs have never bitten with this but I don't know yours.

Tricks and Treats. He learned to sit on command to get a reward. If you don't have a reward, what's the point?

The first thing is to change the focus. Get him to react to you a few times with a treat in front of his nose. ONLY release when he's completed it. Once you've reinforced it, hold the treat in the other hand but use the first hand (still with the scent) to direct his attention. Pretend you're holding a treat in that hand and he'll follow it a little. With work you'll be able to get him to respond to that hand because he knows you have a treat ready when he does. Do that for a few days. Once he's mastered the idea, keep the treat hidden, occasionally don't even give him the treat but reward with praise. If you're learning a new trick 'High five', 'lie down' etc. group them, he has to perform a few actions to get one treat. Eventually you can dispense with the treats for that action altogether. Keep varying the order of the tricks though or he'll start following the pattern before asked. This also creates a delay between following your command and receiving the treat (this is where the clicker can come in but I dispensed with mine as I didn't have enough hands). This delay is then useful for commanding at a distance, but don't try that yet until he's doing it close up.

Also watch out for distractions. Ideally new words should be learned in a low distraction environment like at home. Once he's mastered it, it almost feels like you're starting again out in the park but keep going. Put aside two blocks of 10 minutes every day to work on it. Past then he'll probably get bored. If he runs off and picks up a ball, use that instead of treats for a couple of goes.

Labradors are very people focussed, they love humans and are very playful. He'll follow you everywhere and want to join in everything you do. To remind him of who's in charge, make your decisions and stick to them. If you want to play, play. If you don't want to play, ignore the wet ball placed in your dinner and just don't play.

Mine's used to our routines now and knows when I'm working (or at least not playing), when we're eating etc. But he's becoming a bit of an escape artist. Yours will probably be doing that soon if not already. Remember again that dogs don't understand what a wall or fence is, it has no concept of rent, land ownership and next door's begonias. He's not escaping as such, just exploring his surroundings... think like a dog and you'll see he's not being disrespectful, just trying to have fun doing dog things. Some of which need to be reserved for dogs.

Where abouts are you based?


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## reddogsX3 (May 18, 2008)

PoisonGirl said:


> Ok.. for one.. ''We've been trying on and off to train him ever since the classes''
> 
> You can't just not feel like training a dog one day and doing some the next... training is something that needs to be kept constant, you need to do it every single day!
> 
> ...


i agree

training should be regular and consistant and the same goes for rules. otherwise the dog gets confused and then does what he likes.


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I will give you another perspective......
> 
> Your dog behaves this way because he doesn't respect you. The person who said "dogs don't respect" is wrong. All animals know how to show respect.
> 
> ...





RAINYBOW said:


> It's just the terms of phrase i suppose isn't it.
> 
> Decent basic commands are the foundation of everything IMO and you have to reinforce them again and again, every day with a puppy and by doing that you are showing Leadership
> 
> ...


I think Rainy and Goodvic2 are both right - basic training is the basis for a well behaved dog, but dogs also need a structured environment to live and this is given through good, strong, and importantly consistent leadership.

I agree with both points of view, however I must say in this instance the OP has not indicated (in my opinion) a dominance issue and the consistent training will hopefully lead to the desired results.

Having said that, the OP should also consider if they are projecting to correct image to the dog including a suitable level of authority.

The End

SK climbs off fence and exits stage left


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> There is some truly excellent advice in this thread and I would hope that for the sake of your dog's future you take the time to put it into practice.
> 
> Your young lab really doesn't sound any different to my own, but I quickly learned that his general behavior was entirely dependent on his energy level and the amount of stimulation he has had.
> 
> ...


Fantastic post and example. Blobs on their way.

I agree with you. This is the way I like to train:
Positive reinforcement (not just food literally whatever motivates the dog, toys, praise, being allowed to walk through a door, jump around in the grass etc...)
I also use withdrawal of attention/complete ignore any "silly"/desirable behaviour because our attention is one of the most valuable things to our dogs. 
It's also all about our relationship with out dogs. Really spending time with them so that we understand what makes them tick, what they enjoy, what they're unsure about, any insecurities etc... Giving them plenty of exercise, mental stimulation and especially with working breeds like collies, labs etc giving them a job. 
I have a very worky border collie, I work him in agility (just started competing) and lots of little HWTM tricks and moves (hoping to start freestyle classes soon too) and I can safely say that he is a much happier well stimulated dog with a "job" to do


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Just looked through the posts albeit quickly so sorry if its been mentioned before but what are you feeding him, he needs to be on an adult ,good quality, natural diet low protein i feed burns my youngest had been on this since she was 5 weeks and she has been the easiest of all mine, you have had some excellent advice on training but if fed a food with lots of additives and chemicals can make them hyper and less focused during training so do check the food content.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Just looked through the posts albeit quickly so sorry if its been mentioned before but what are you feeding him, he needs to be on an adult ,good quality, natural diet low protein i feed burns my youngest had been on this since she was 5 weeks and she has been the easiest of all mine, you have had some excellent advice on training but if fed a food with lots of additives and chemicals can make them hyper and less focused during training so do check the food content.


What an excellent point, why is it so easy to forget the most simple things?


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## slicksps (Oct 11, 2009)

I was told to keep mine on puppy food by PDSA's petcheck people until 18 months. Otherwise yes food quality is definitely important. The first bag of food I bought was a bit on the cheap side, he was hyper but I put that down to him. When I looked into the ingredients, I realised that all the pieces were shaped and coloured for human satisfaction and that it was mostly c**p! There doesn't appear to be the same regulation with pet food as with human food which probably explains the huge recall a few years ago.

Be careful with leftovers. Dogs are a great consumer of leftovers and if you're careful you can feed him only the best as a treat from his usual diet (not as a staple)


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Mine have always been put on adult food at 6 months most commercial puppy food is much too high in protein for a dog older than 6 months.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

We have had lots of labradors and they are well known for being crazy as pups! I dont think we had one thats wasnt a total fruit loop up until 2-3 years old where SOME of them calmed down some didnt. Basic training and patients is the best way forward. Lots of exercises, mental stimulation, and good diet will also help. Interesting thread, lots of good replies.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Can I put my tuppence worth in?

Dog no1: spent 9months doing training and getting a good bond with the dog until he decided enough was enough and he was going to test the boundaries. Went back to basics and to get to the same level took another 6months of training.

Along came dog no2: Unruly 1yr old that has never had any discipline, been allowed to walk all over the previous owner and has his own ideas about what is what. The bad thing is that dog no1 now follows dog no2's actions so I now have to strip everything back to basics with both dogs and start again but this time training two dogs which is 5 times harder than one dog.

The digs have a brilliant bond together I couldn't wish for two better dogs in that respect but now I have to not only walk them but walk them separately most of the time, definitely have to train them separately the majority of the time and then make sure I am not showing favouritism. It is a lot to think about 24hrs a day and it is extremely frustrating having to go back tot he beginning every time but it is only beneficial and beneficial to both the dogs and me because it creates a bond which is the least you can ask for but it also affirms you as the boss (in a nice way) and because they see you as the boss and their protector they have no reason to worry or stress and they become better dogs so you no longer worry or stress and then you really start to see the gold at the end of the rainbow.

So what do you gain by stripping everything back to basics you may ask?

Think of a building. It might look fantastic and be your dream house etc but without solid foundations is not secure and can present a whole heap of misery and problems for you to deal with.

Training obedience, the big four are the most important - stop, sit, down and stay (5 & 6 would be recall and the all important release command), allows you to do so much more in an easier way and allows the dog to quickly learn what you want from it so it will gain confidence in its behaviour and can relax in the knowledge that you are pleased with it. For example, using just stop, sit and the release command you can show a dog "Good manners". Good manners I would list as:

Not jumping up at guests or people.
Not taking over a room and treating it as its own.
Not getting over excited in situations to the point where the dog becomes wound up.
No jumping on the furniture.
You can get the dog to politely sit whilst you go through the door first.
Give a bark at the doorbell but then remain quiet as you go deal with the visitor.
Wait to be fed instead of bullying you into feeding it.

But everyone has different rules

Get the 4/6 main controls down to a first time action on first time of asking and you are well on your way to solid foundations as you can then begin to teach rules and boundaries in the home, when out and about or in other buildings i.e. vets, friend's houses etc. 

Watch your dog. Just sit and watch it interact with it's environment for ten minutes a day. What is its body posture doing in relation to what it is actually doing? Is the dog tense or nervous? Is the dog confident and assertive? Is the dog content just to sit with you? By doing this you will so much about your dog that will allow you to really get inside it's hungry mind and start to expand it.

If your dog used to follow voice commands first time every time but over a period of time it has lost the response speed or complete response you can change the command word by taking it back to basics.

The two magic rules of voice commands:

1). If you dog is going about its daily business and is about to lie down then just as it performs the action give it the command you want and then praise. Over time it will recognise the word and will know the action so everyone is a winner. There's no need to follow the hound around with an eagle eye though, just when you are in the lounge watching tv or out and about in general will do. Make the natural behaviour of the dog work in your favour.

2). The command is given once. Once. ONCE. ONCE!!!! Humans are brilliant at talking and communicating but there are certain times when we just need to shut up and giving commands is one of them. You tell Fido to sit. Fido ignores this. You tell Fido to sit again. Fido sits. You praise Fido. Fido gets praised for ignoring you the first time. Why? If you asked your partner, sibling or work colleague to do something you would expect to have to ask them again. If you did you certainly wouldn't praise them in a pleasing way, more of a sarcastic or from behind a false smile.
Now, you ask Fido to sit. Fido doesn't sit. You use your hands to position Fido in a sitting position. Leave Fido sat there for a 10seconds and then release or walk on. After a few minutes you ask Fido to sit again. Fido looks a bit like he wants to do something but cant quite get it. You place Fido in the sitting position. After 10seconds you release and walk on. A few minutes later you ask Fido to sit. Fido sits. You praise Fido. Fido gets praise for following the command first time and has a gold star next to the "Sit" section of things he knows.
Treats work to begin with because it is an incentive to get the dog into position but if you use rule one you will find that other than obscure things like handstands the dog will do in everyday behaviour anyway and they will follow your command to please you not to get fed as others have already stipulated. I taught dog no1 to roll over by saying "Rollyover" as soon as he started to roll over in the long grass on the lounge floor. I tried teaching him with a treat but he just moved his head or got up and walked to where he was more comfortable and could get the treat.

The two golden unbreakable magic super fort knox rules for you are:

1). Be consistent in tone of voice, the commands you use, only giving the commands once, setting rules and allowing your dog time to itself. With consistency the dog knows what is expected, what it can expect and will therefore settle better and relax knowing these things.

2). BE PATIENT!!!!! You are a human. Your vocalisations are very complex, your body is all over the place, you are greatly influenced by the goings on in your life and can be relaxed and happy one day and tense and agitated the next. You are near on impossible to understand by someone from another country let alone another species. You dont know everything your dog is trying to tell you so be patient as they are trying to be with you and you will develop a middle ground and a method of understanding that works for you both which will open a floodgate of progress in behaviour and training.

Quite a lot there for my 2p.


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi

Interesting post and I agree with a great deal of what you are saying. However, I don't like the idea of physically touching a touch to get it to sit. I see where you are coming from but the problem is that once the touch has gone, the dog will then not necessarily do it without the physical cue. 

Research has shown that an animal that is 'lured' to a behaviour or 'offers' the behviour and is rewarded is more likely to continue that behaviour on command, than an animal that has been manipulated physically. 

I did this in one of my puppy classes one day with people who had tradionally taught their dogs to sit with their hands on and those that had never touched their dogs, the results were impressive towards those who had been lured.

Push me and I will push against you, same for dogs.

Kate


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I know what yopu mean by the physical side. Perhaps I didn;t make it clear that you don;t force them into any position but merley suggestively guide them into position. For example.

I taught dog1 to sit be moving the treat over his head etc. I then lost the treat and if he didn;t respond after the first command a very light tap with my index finger on his curly haired bottom was enough to get him to follow the required action.

The physical suggestion is extremely hard to do for other commands such as lying down and should not be used as it would involve far too much manipulation to get your message across and the heavy handed approach would mean you lose all control and faith as far as the dog is concered which is why I emphasised watching your dog's behaviour and commanding when they naturally perform the action becasue then you are not using treats and you are not using physical persuasion.

Treats will only help you survive until a certain point and pysical pursasion will only work in limited situations and for a very short time so they must both be used with caution. One more so than the other.


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