# Russia & Ukraine



## Boxer123

This seems to be escalating very scary. I don’t understand how Russia keep denying what they are doing.


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## kimthecat

They always deny what they do. Putins pushing his luck.


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## JANICE199

Boxer123 said:


> This seems to be escalating very scary. I don't understand how Russia keep denying what they are doing.


*As far back as i can remember ( and i'm 72 ) the Russians were our enemy. But as i've got older i do NOT believe that is the case. I'm more worried about how our government are dealing with the ( situation). Boris and the Tories have been friends with the Russians, taking donations to fund the tory party. Hell, Boris even played a tennis match with a Russian lady ( i can't recall her name). As far as i'm concerned we are being taken for fools by our government.*


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## Siskin

Putin, who is former KGB, is very keen to retrieve all those former USSR states bit by bit


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## Lurcherlad

Very concerning.


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## Dave S

I think Putin has been very clever in calling them a "Peace keeping" force which means if there is any military action against them he will have a field day blaming everyone else for attacking them.
TBH I thought he was bluffing and would pull all the military back as they were "exercises", just hope this does not escalate into an all out war.
Really there is no need for military conflict, all any state needs to do is hack into government and state systems and the media, turn off the internet and you have effective control.


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## Oof

I have a good friend in Ukraine who is terrified of what's happening. Mandatory female conscription over there.


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## Beth78

I had a dream/nightmare last night that the Russian army were invading and amongst all the gunshots and bombs I was trying to find my sister. Guess it's been on my mind enough for me to dream about it.


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## Magyarmum

Putins principle gripe is about NATO.who he reckons is trying to weaken Russia, He also denies that the Ukraine is a sovereign country in it's own right and is historically a part of Russia. Ukraine on the other hand regards itself as independent as well as a democracy and would like to become a member of NATO And so it goes on, round and round in circles

I live 80 miles from the Ukraine border and all Hungary's gas comes from Russia via Ukraine. People here still remember what it was like living in a Russian satellite state and don't want it to happen again.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/15/explainer-nato-and-the-ukraine-russia-crisis

*NATO and the Ukraine-Russia crisis: Five key things to know*


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## Oof

@Magyarmum - Isn't control over Crimea a part of it too? Scary stuff.


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## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *As far back as i can remember ( and i'm 72 ) the Russians were our enemy. But as i've got older i do NOT believe that is the case. .*


You might want to watch the last series of Warships at Sea ch 5 . never underestimate the Russians.  Our ships spend a lot of time tracking Russian subs and ships in areas they shouldn't be etc 
Their jets frequently fly down the English Chanel and our RAF jets are scrambled. seems they are checking out our responses etc .

It might be willy waving from Putin but he is a dangerous man. His opponents end up dead or end up in prison
I always think of the Peter Pan song when I hear of him.

*"Never* smile at a crocodile No, you can't get friendly with a crocodile Don't be taken in by his welcome grin He's imagining how well you'd fit within his skin."


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## Oof

kimthecat said:


> You might want to watch the last series of Warships at Sea ch 5 . never underestimate the Russians.  Our ships spend a lot of time tracking Russian subs and ships in areas they shouldn't be etc
> Their jets frequently fly down the English Chanel and our RAF jets are scrambled. seems they are checking out our responses etc .
> 
> It might be willy waving from Putin but he is a dangerous man. His opponents end up dead or end up in prison
> I always think of the Peter Pan song when I hear of him.
> 
> *"Never* smile at a crocodile No, you can't get friendly with a crocodile Don't be taken in by his welcome grin He's imagining how well you'd fit within his skin."


(Not trying to make light of it but "willy waving" made me smile).

Putin is definitely a bully amongst over things. The story of him stealing someone's class ring sticks in my mind.


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## Siskin

Apparently Ukraine has superb soil especially over in the east and is known as the bread basket of Europe as everything grows well. It’s extremely deep and Hitler during the war had workers (probably more like slaves) digging it up and transporting it to Germany to be spread on the fields.
I can imagine Putin would like to have the crop growing part of Ukraine and then try and control the world price of crops to everyone else’s detriment apart from Russia’s


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## Oof

Siskin said:


> Apparently Ukraine has superb soil especially over in the east and is known as the bread basket of Europe as everything grows well. It's extremely deep and Hitler during the war had workers (probably more like slaves) digging it up and transporting it to Germany to be spread on the fields.
> I can imagine Putin would like to have the crop growing part of Ukraine and then try and control the world price of crops to everyone else's detriment apart from Russia's


I hadn't heard of that (seriously, I'm getting a better education from PF than from school).

According to Sky News, there's further worry that this move will embolden China


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## Maurey

Siskin said:


> Apparently Ukraine has superb soil especially over in the east and is known as the bread basket of Europe as everything grows well. It's extremely deep and Hitler during the war had workers (probably more like slaves) digging it up and transporting it to Germany to be spread on the fields.
> I can imagine Putin would like to have the crop growing part of Ukraine and then try and control the world price of crops to everyone else's detriment apart from Russia's


To my knowledge, Russia has significantly more Chernozem/Black Earth in workable regions than the Ukraine, so given the political suicide of seriously attacking, much less conquering a European country in this day and age, it's nowhere near worth it, especially given Russia is already a major food exporter that controls market prices (which is shit for the population itself, given the rising prices in the country while salaries stay the same, as homegrown goods will increase in price with increased export volume, so that producers don't miss out on profit by not exporting). https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021...od-exports-amid-pandemic-rising-prices-a73179









While Russian news is hardly unbiased, the west's isn't, either. The inflammatory reaction of western countries has done nothing but make the situation worse, imo. According to local news, Putin only cares about pressuring NATO through his actions. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.


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## Happy Paws2

Dave S said:


> TBH I thought he was bluffing and would pull all the military back as they were "exercises", just hope this does not escalate into an all out war.


I thought he was buffing as well, now I'm getting worried.


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## Dave S

Happy Paws2 said:


> I thought he was buffing as well, now I'm getting worried.


There is no doubt that Putin is a very clever KBG agent, however lets not forget that Biden (and America) are just a dangerous and could resort to unthinkable things very quickly.
It was also speculated that if Russia was going to do anything it would be after the Olympic games were finished, whether that makes any difference I do not know but Russia and China are very cosy together.


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## Magyarmum

Dave S said:


> There is no doubt that Putin is a very clever KBG agent, however lets not forget that Biden (and America) are just a dangerous and could resort to unthinkable things very quickly.
> It was also speculated that if Russia was going to do anything it would be after the Olympic games were finished, whether that makes any difference I do not know but Russia and China are very cosy together.


One of the worries that I've heard expressed is that China might take a leaf out of Russia's book and move into Taiwan.

https://thehill.com/opinion/interna...ications-of-china-and-russias-unholy-alliance

*The risks and implications of China and Russia's unholy alliance*


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## Happy Paws2

I'm just glad Trump isn't still in the white house, could you just imagine what he be doing


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## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm just glad Trump isn't still in the white house, could you just imagine what he be doing


This is what you might have heard if he was still POTUS


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## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> You might want to watch the last series of Warships at Sea ch 5 . never underestimate the Russians.  Our ships spend a lot of time tracking Russian subs and ships in areas they shouldn't be etc
> Their jets frequently fly down the English Chanel and our RAF jets are scrambled. seems they are checking out our responses etc .
> 
> It might be willy waving from Putin but he is a dangerous man. His opponents end up dead or end up in prison
> I always think of the Peter Pan song when I hear of him.
> 
> *"Never* smile at a crocodile No, you can't get friendly with a crocodile Don't be taken in by his welcome grin He's imagining how well you'd fit within his skin."


I'm going to have to check if you can say ''willy'' on a family forum!


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## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> I'm going to have to check if you can say ''willy'' on a family forum!


Have you ever LISTENED to the songs kids sing in the playground? Skipping rhymes are usually only cute if you pay no attention to the actual words....


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## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I'm going to have to check if you can say ''willy'' on a family forum!


 :Hilarious


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## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


> One of the worries that I've heard expressed is that China might take a leaf out of Russia's book and move into Taiwan.
> 
> https://thehill.com/opinion/interna...ications-of-china-and-russias-unholy-alliance
> 
> *The risks and implications of China and Russia's unholy alliance*


While China is no doubt looking at how the West is responding I don't think Taiwan and Ukraine are comparable. There is far more interest in keeping Taiwan independent.


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## Maurey

Putin's formal take on why he's started war. Wonder what the full truth is.



> The Republics of Donbass turned to Russia with a request for help. I have decided to launch a special military operation. Its goal is to protect people who have been subjected to genocide for eight years. We will strive for the demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine. NATO supports Ukrainian neo-Nazis who will never forgive the Crimeans for their choice and will climb into Crimea. Our actions are self-defense against threats. Russia's plans do not include the occupation of Ukrainian territories, we do not impose anything on anyone by force. Freedom is at the heart of our politics. Let me turn to the servicemen of Ukraine: fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers did not fight against Nazism in order to serve the anti-people junta today. Lay down your weapons and you can safely return home. All responsibility for the bloodshed will lie with the Kiev regime. We are ready for anything. For anyone on the outside who tries to get in the way: Russia's response will lead to consequences you've never experienced before. The policy of the empire of lies is based on brute force, and we know that the real force is in justice and truth, which is on our side. The security of the homeland will be reliably guaranteed.


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## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> While China is no doubt looking at how the West is responding I don't think Taiwan and Ukraine are comparable. There is far more interest in keeping Taiwan independent.


Nevertheless I've heard the idea being bandied about several times by the Americans.

We were told yesterday that Hungarian troops are being deployed along the North Eastern Hungarian/Ukraine border which is only 81 miles away from where I live (much nearer as the crow flies)

This "war" or whatever Vlad calls it is becoming a reality in my part of Europe 

https://thehill.com/policy/international/595363-hungary-sending-troops-close-to-ukraine-border

*Hungary sending troops close to Ukraine border*


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## Beth78

Well the inevitable is happening and Russia are invading Ukraine. I guess this will be the next refugee crisis.


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## Boxer123

Magyarmum said:


> Nevertheless I've heard the idea being bandied about several times by the Americans.
> 
> We were told yesterday that Hungarian troops are being deployed along the North Eastern Hungarian/Ukraine border which is only 81 miles away from where I live (much nearer as the crow flies)
> 
> This "war" or whatever Vlad calls it is becoming a reality in my part of Europe
> 
> https://thehill.com/policy/international/595363-hungary-sending-troops-close-to-ukraine-border
> 
> *Hungary sending troops close to Ukraine border*


Hope your ok @Magyarmum


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## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Nevertheless I've heard the idea being bandied about several times by the Americans.
> 
> We were told yesterday that Hungarian troops are being deployed along the North Eastern Hungarian/Ukraine border which is only 81 miles away from where I live (much nearer as the crow flies)
> 
> This "war" or whatever Vlad calls it is becoming a reality in my part of Europe
> 
> https://thehill.com/policy/international/595363-hungary-sending-troops-close-to-ukraine-border
> 
> *Hungary sending troops close to Ukraine border*


Must be very worrying for you, thinking of you and hope your OK


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## Oof

Not heard from my friend. She's a student in Kyiv, her family are in the East  she moved to Ukraine a few years back to escape war and now this is happening.


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## daveos

Very worrying times I remember growing up in the 1980s with the threat of all out war and nuclear war hoped all that had gone away.
As much as I don't like war I think the west has to stand together and not allow this to happen, Russia really needs to be stood up to just like a bully does Putin will come off this a lot worse the Ukrainians will not be a pushover remember Checheyna they successfully stopped the Russians with their advance and held them for a time until Putin bribed the warlords to agree a ceasefire and claim it as their victory.
It will be very hard with boots on the ground people will fight with all determination and love for freedom to defend there land and good luck to them I hope you kick the Russian backside.
Not sure how the people of Russia will feel when they see the coffins of husbands and sons returning from what could be a bloody conflict it could be worse than Afghanistan that was one of the reasons that brought down the USSR then.
All the best Ukraine my thoughts are with you Godbless.


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## LinznMilly

Magyarmum said:


> Nevertheless I've heard the idea being bandied about several times by the Americans.
> 
> We were told yesterday that Hungarian troops are being deployed along the North Eastern Hungarian/Ukraine border which is only 81 miles away from where I live (much nearer as the crow flies)
> 
> This "war" or whatever Vlad calls it is becoming a reality in my part of Europe
> 
> https://thehill.com/policy/international/595363-hungary-sending-troops-close-to-ukraine-border
> 
> *Hungary sending troops close to Ukraine border*


I can't imagine what you must be thinking. You, the Black Hairy Creature and the White Fing are in my thoughts. Try to stay safe.


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## OrientalSlave

daveos said:


> Very worrying times I remember growing up in the 1980s with the threat of all out war and nuclear war hoped all that had gone away.
> As much as I don't like war I think the west has to stand together and not allow this to happen, Russia really needs to be stood up to just like a bully does Putin will come off this a lot worse the Ukrainians will not be a pushover remember Checheyna they successfully stopped the Russians with their advance and held them for a time until Putin bribed the warlords to agree a ceasefire and claim it as their victory.
> It will be very hard with boots on the ground people will fight with all determination and love for freedom to defend there land and good luck to them I hope you kick the Russian backside.
> Not sure how the people of Russia will feel when they see the coffins of husbands and sons returning from what could be a bloody conflict it could be worse than Afghanistan that was one of the reasons that brought down the USSR then.
> All the best Ukraine my thoughts are with you Godbless.


How exactly, without all-out war, do we 'stand up to Putin'? China will be very happy to prop up Russia economically,


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## daveos

OrientalSlave said:


> How exactly, without all-out war, do we 'stand up to Putin'? China will be very happy to prop up Russia economically,


Well we can all do nothing and more countries will fall but NATO said if a pair of boots steps in a NATO country will we all be at war very scary.
Appesment does not work look at Hitler he just got stronger if confronted earlier it could have been a shorter war.
The free world needs to be united demand Russia retreat what they are doing is against international law its a war crime and also strangle the economy of Russia.
And you are right about China they are surely seeing how this plays out they could invade Taiwan if a weak response from the west.
It is very worrying all of this nobody wants war unless you are a lunatic but sometimes you have to fight for peace.


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## Calvine

daveos said:


> look at Hitler he just got stronger if confronted earlier it could have been a shorter war.


Weirdly enough, Putin maintains that he is trying to fight militarisation and Nazification? Yeah, right!
Ukraine's Jewish President Zelenskiy asks Putin: 'How could I be a Nazi?' - POLITICO


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## Magyarmum

Boxer123 said:


> Hope your ok @Magyarmum





Happy Paws2 said:


> Must be very worrying for you, thinking of you and hope your OK





LinznMilly said:


> I can't imagine what you must be thinking. You, the Black Hairy Creature and the White Fing are in my thoughts. Try to stay safe.


Thank you. Whilst I am concerned for the people in Ukraine, realistically I'm in no danger whatsoever.

From what I understand the Hungarian troops have moved to the border, not because they fear the country will be invaded but to deal with the hundreds of refugees they expect to cross into Hungary. There are around 156 000 ethnic Hungarians living in Ukraine who as far as I'm aware will all be welcomed here.


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## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Weirdly enough, Putin maintains that he is trying to fight militarisation and Nazification? Yeah, right!
> Ukraine's Jewish President Zelenskiy asks Putin: 'How could I be a Nazi?' - POLITICO


Is it just me imagining things, but I'm finding much of Putin's logic and rhetoric very reminiscent of his best buddy Donald J Trump? Maybe Donny boy has been giving him some coaching (for a substantial fee naturally) and are planning between them to take over the world?


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## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Is it just me imagining things, but I'm finding much of Putin's logic and rhetoric very reminiscent of his best buddy Donald J Trump? Maybe Donny boy has been giving him some coaching (for a substantial fee naturally) and are planning between them to take over the world?


Putin certainly seems somewhat deluded.


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## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Putin certainly seems somewhat deluded.


Very worrying he reminds me of Hitler


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## daveos

I worry about the mental state of Putin he seems to be very delusional at the moment his invasion will be no walk in the park wars are very expensive and costly to life and they very rarely go to plan history teaches us that.
Also looks like China is supporting Russia saying it is not a invasion, No surprise really they are just as bad they took Tibet and now they are strangling Hong Kong I bet they have eyes firmly on Taiwan now.
Very dark days ahead I really hoped this was all behind us now it looks like a new Cold War or WW3.


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## Dimwit

And now it looks like Russian forces are attempting to seize the Chernobyl power plant - along with the threat of covering most of Europe in radioactive dust...


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## daveos

Heavy fighting over Chernobyl Ukrainians giving there lives to defend the site.
The west response has been toothless we should be providing a no fly zone over Ukraine come on they are begging for help a peaceful nation being attacked by a madman we just can't stand by and watch, Better to act early rather than latter never back down to a bully


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## Maurey

The origin for the Chernobyl thing is a tweet without any formal sourcing at the moment, far as I can tell. Hopefully not true, as if it is, worried what the governments' plans for it are in terms of using it to advantage


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## cheekyscrip

I am shaking. Mu mother was born on what is now West Ukraine. I have family there still.
No one did anything on 2014, Ukraine wanted to be a part of NATO and EU.
Ukraine means huge area of best arable land, coal, gas, oil. Putin will get it.
What will be next? Baltic republics and so on.
Tories are sponsored by donors who are tied to Russia.
Germany already come to agreement.
China will take Taiwan and whatever else they want.
USA can’t even defend Capitol.
Time to act was in 2014.


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## Nonnie

Maurey said:


> The origin for the Chernobyl thing is a tweet without any formal sourcing at the moment, far as I can tell. Hopefully not true, as if it is, worried what the governments' plans for it are in terms of using it to advantage


President Zelensky has made a speech and confirmed heavy fighting at Chernobyl.


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## Magyarmum

Maurey said:


> The origin for the Chernobyl thing is a tweet without any formal sourcing at the moment, far as I can tell. Hopefully not true, as if it is, worried what the governments' plans for it are in terms of using it to advantage


https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/rus...ar-chernobyl-ukraine-minister-adviser-2787607

*Russian Troops Breach Area Near Chernobyl: Ukraine Minister Adviser*


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## cheekyscrip

This is what Putin wants and this is what EU rejected;


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## daveos

cheekyscrip said:


> I am shaking. Mu mother was born on what is now West Ukraine. I have family there still.
> No one did anything on 2014, Ukraine wanted to be a part of NATO and EU.
> Ukraine means huge area of best arable land, coal, gas, oil. Putin will get it.
> What will be next? Baltic republics and so on.
> Tories are sponsored by donors who are tied to Russia.
> Germany already come to agreement.
> China will take Taiwan and whatever else they want.
> USA can't even defend Capitol.
> Time to act was in 2014.


Spot on with what you say we have turned a blind eye to Putin for to long something we have now come to regret, Western countries have been cutting military budgets while Russia and China increase spending absolute madness.
I fear if this invasion carries on Baltic's would be his next targets.
And Germany would not allow RAF aircraft carrying anti tank missiles over its airspace so much for NATO unity.
China will almost certainly invade Taiwan now unless NATO make a stand right away after all Ukraine does border several NATO members.
Belarus must also be held to account as they have been assisting with this genocide.
Im praying for Ukraine Godbless.


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## daveos

cheekyscrip said:


> This is what Putin wants and this is what EU rejected;
> View attachment 484840
> View attachment 484841


Exactly Russia wants the wealth of Ukraine the Ukrainian economy has been growing strongly while Russia is not doing so well a blatant grab of resources.


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## cheekyscrip

daveos said:


> Spot on with what you say we have turned a blind eye to Putin for to long something we have now come to regret, Western countries have been cutting military budgets while Russia and China increase spending absolute madness.
> I fear if this invasion carries on Baltic's would be his next targets.
> And Germany would not allow RAF aircraft carrying anti tank missiles over its airspace so much for NATO unity.
> China will almost certainly invade Taiwan now unless NATO make a stand right away after all Ukraine does border several NATO members.
> Belarus must also be held to account as they have been assisting with this genocide.
> Im praying for Ukraine Godbless.


Belarus has puppet government … Belarusians protested against rigged elections and what was done about it?
Belarusian government does not represent the people but was elected by Putin.


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## daveos

cheekyscrip said:


> Belarus has puppet government … Belarusians protested against rigged elections and what was done about it?
> Belarusian government does not represent the people but was elected by Putin.


Yes remember that now pulls a lot of strings does Putin, Guess a lot of Russians hate Putin too but can't see him getting overthrown I wonder what his generals really make of all this madness.


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## daveos

Just read a message on twitter by Nigel Farage guess what he blames the EU for provoking Russia with expansion, Unbelievable really at at time like this blame the EU, Or has he also taken Russian money like the conservative government.


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## cheekyscrip

daveos said:


> Just read a message on twitter by Nigel Farage guess what he blames the EU for provoking Russia with expansion, Unbelievable really at at time like this blame the EU, Or has he also taken Russian money like the conservative government.


Obviously.


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## cheekyscrip

daveos said:


> Yes remember that now pulls a lot of strings does Putin, Guess a lot of Russians hate Putin too but can't see him getting overthrown I wonder what his generals really make of all this madness.


He has full support of Russian army funded by his government . Russians never accepted the loss of Soviet Republics. Opposition falls from the windows or ends like Navalny. Russian imperialism never changes.
I speak Russian, even worked there… a good friend of mine who is well connected Russian told me years ago that Trump will be elected and Brexit will happen. He laughed and said "we will buy this country ".
Of course Farage is in their pocket.


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## Jesthar

daveos said:


> I worry about the mental state of Putin he seems to be very delusional at the moment his invasion will be no walk in the park wars are very expensive and costly to life and they very rarely go to plan history teaches us that.


I don't think Putin will worry about loss of life - well, not initially. He's KGB. He'll be perfectly willing to sacrifice both his own troops and civilians in significant numbers, just as Stalin was in WW2.

The flip side, of course, is that in this day and age we have the internet and easy international mass communication, so you can't keep a lid on casualty reporting or control the news narrative anywhere near as much as you could 80 years ago. So that arrogance may well come back to bite him.


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## Happy Paws2

[QUOTE="Magyarmum, post: 1065862556, member: 1424240"*
*Russian Troops Breach Area Near Chernobyl: Ukraine Minister Adviser*[/QUOTE]

Just come on the news that they have taken Chernobyl.


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## Oof

So Putins warning that there will be unimaginable consequences to any countries that intervene...

Now that's a threat if ever there was one.

Apparently parliament is preparing for when/if this spills over to other countries?


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## LinznMilly

My thoughts are with Ukraine, and anyone else affected by this… conflict.


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## Siskin

Oof said:


> So Putins warning that there will be unimaginable consequences to any countries that intervene...
> 
> Now that's a threat if ever there was one.
> 
> Apparently parliament is preparing for when/if this spills over to other countries?


Does remind me of Hitler invading countries prior to the start of WW2


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## Oof

Siskin said:


> Does remind me of Hitler invading countries prior to the start of WW2


My history is shaky at best, but there have been a lot of comparison between these two individuals.


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## MollySmith

daveos said:


> Just read a message on twitter by Nigel Farage guess what he blames the EU for provoking Russia with expansion, Unbelievable really at at time like this blame the EU, Or has he also taken Russian money like the conservative government.


Social media platforms need to be really careful about monsters like Farage.

My thoughts are with everyone affected by this, it's awful x


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## cheekyscrip

Siskin said:


> Does remind me of Hitler invading countries prior to the start of WW2


Does remind me of the reaction of UK and France, USA etc… lots of angry words… words… words…
Block SWIFT!!!


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## cheekyscrip

In the future I see Russia taking over once again the former Soviet Republics. China taking Taiwan and more…
Germany/France ruling EU. 
USA weak. UK quite in Russian pocket.
Putin had his hand and lots of money pushed into Brexit and electing Trump to achieve that very effect.
Good old KGB methods. Corruption and disinformation.
Now EU and UK are at loggerheads and Putin and China are taking over.
This is not just about Ukraine, this is about the future of democracy.

Russia is taking over essential resources and will control the supplies.
Arab countries are not great fans of USA - just think about Palestine!

I see quite a few politicians here who would love to emulate Putin and be above .the law
This war in history books will be the landmark of the fall of the post WW2 world order and USA/ Western Europe dominance.


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## MollySmith

Kerry Katona has told Putin off via Loose Women, that ought to tell him.


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## Mrs Funkin

MollySmith said:


> Kerry Katona has told Putin off via Loose Women, that ought to tell him.


I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't laugh but that made me chuckle. Putin must be quaking in his (tiny) boots.


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## MollySmith

Mrs Funkin said:


> I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't laugh but that made me chuckle. Putin must be quaking in his (tiny) boots.


Bless her, the screen grab of her looking very fierce on Twitter isn't her best.


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## cheekyscrip

I always thought that when Merkel pressed UK to take refugees on the verge of referendum she actually wanted Brexit to happen.
To get Britain out of EU and subdue all other countries.
Now Germany, Russia and China will divide the Europe and Asia between them as zones of influence.
USA will have both Americas.
Arab countries will sit it out hoping to resolve the Palestine problem.
The fall of the post WW2 order. 
China and Russia were always the danger and getting out of EU was to leave the field for Germany/France.
I think Germany will leave Britain to Putin…
As an influence zone.


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## JANICE199

cheekyscrip said:


> I always thought that when Merkel pressed UK to take refugees on the verge of referendum she actually wanted Brexit to happen.
> To get Britain out of EU and subdue all other countries.
> Now Germany, Russia and China will divide the Europe and Asia between them as zones of influence.
> USA will have both Americas.
> Arab countries will sit it out hoping to resolve the Palestine problem.
> The fall of the post WW2 order.
> China and Russia were always the danger and getting out of EU was to leave the field for Germany/France.
> I think Germany will leave Britain to Putin…
> As an influence zone.


*As i see things, our OWN governments have divided our own people. It's been going on for years. *
*No good will come of this situation and the ONLY people that will gain anything are those in power, no matter who their leaders are. Money talks.*
*My heart truly goes out to everyone involved.:Bawling*


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## Magyarmum




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## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


>


Don't do that, I nearly choked :Hilarious


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## Oof

Magyarmum said:


>


Hilarious :Hilarious


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## rona

The trouble with what's happening is that the Russian people will suffer too. Putin and his cronies will be the last to suffer 

This is such a no win situation


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## Maurey

New news. Bad news for the population here. Rough translation from a Russian news source. Theoretically means protestors may be able to be arrested for up to 20 years :/ a 150k strong protest march is being planned for the 5th. I’m not sure it’s worth the risk to attend anymore.

“On February 27, the Russian Prosecutor General's Office promised to "give a legal assessment" if the Russians provide "aid to a foreign state to the detriment of the security of the Russian Federation" during the war with Ukraine. The department stressed that "financial, logistical, consulting or other assistance to a foreign state in activities directed against the security of the Russian Federation" will be considered treason. The punishment under this article is imprisonment from 12 to 20 years.”


----------



## Boxer123

I’m very disappointed on our government stance on refugees I hope they change their minds. I have a spare room if happily give up.


----------



## Magyarmum

Boxer123 said:


> I'm very disappointed on our government stance on refugees I hope they change their minds. I have a spare room if happily give up.


I thought that was Sox's bedroom.


----------



## Beth78

Boxer123 said:


> I'm very disappointed on our government stance on refugees I hope they change their minds. I have a spare room if happily give up.


We've got a spare room here as well, I'm sure loads of people in this country would happily take refugees in.
Are they accepting any at all ?


----------



## Oof

Friend tried to get to Poland at the weekend but missed her chance - soldiers had blocked all the roads off and started blowing up bridges.
She returned home seeing the tanks coming. She's stuck now, having to go to the basement everytime the sirens go off. She thinks she's going to have to see it through in Ukraine.


----------



## Boxer123

Magyarmum said:


> I thought that was Sox's bedroom.


Well they would have to like dogs and spooning.



Beth78 said:


> We've got a spare room here as well, I'm sure loads of people in this country would happily take refugees in.
> Are they accepting any at all ?


Immediate family of people here. They are refusing to let people in without papers a British family stuck in Ukraine were told to travel back through the war zone for papers. It's crazy.


----------



## Magyarmum

I don't have a spare bedroom unfortunately. If I did have I'd offer it to one of the many South Africans who were studying in Ukraine and have had to get out and find their way back to SA.


----------



## Magyarmum

Boxer123 said:


> Well they would have to like dogs and spooning.
> 
> Immediate family of people here. They are refusing to let people in without papers a British family stuck in Ukraine were told to travel back through the war zone for papers. It's crazy.


I hope you asked Sox's permission?


----------



## Boxer123

Magyarmum said:


> I hope you asked Sox's permission?


Honestly he would snug anyone drops me like a hot potato whenever we get a visitor.


----------



## Cully

Oof said:


> Friend tried to get to Poland at the weekend but missed her chance - soldiers had blocked all the roads off and started blowing up bridges.
> She returned home seeing the tanks coming. She's stuck now, having to go to the basement everytime the sirens go off. She thinks she's going to have to see it through in Ukraine.


----------



## Jesthar

Maurey said:


> New news. Bad news for the population here. Rough translation from a Russian news source. Theoretically means protestors may be able to be arrested for up to 20 years :/ a 150k strong protest march is being planned for the 5th. I'm not sure it's worth the risk to attend anymore.
> 
> "On February 27, the Russian Prosecutor General's Office promised to "give a legal assessment" if the Russians provide "aid to a foreign state to the detriment of the security of the Russian Federation" during the war with Ukraine. The department stressed that "financial, logistical, consulting or other assistance to a foreign state in activities directed against the security of the Russian Federation" will be considered treason. The punishment under this article is imprisonment from 12 to 20 years."


Oh, Maurey, my heart breaks for you and all the ordinary Russians who are stuck with this madman at the helm of your beloved country...


----------



## Oof

Apparently putin escalated the nuclear weapons threat because of something Liz Truss said?


----------



## Siskin

Oof said:


> Apparently putin escalated the nuclear weapons threat because of something Liz Truss said?


Probably said he was a naughty boy and to go to his room and don't come out until he's ready to apologise.


----------



## Cully

Siskin said:


> Probably said he was a naughty boy and to go to his room and don't come out until he's ready to apologise.


RBFace can't even sell _pork!!!!_


----------



## Jesthar

Oof said:


> Apparently putin escalated the nuclear weapons threat because of something Liz Truss said?


Well, he is famously misogynistic!

They won't clarify exactly what it was that supposedly caused the offence, though, so more smoke and mirrors I reckon


----------



## Happy Paws2

She's a waste of space as well, we need someone more experienced then her to handle this.


----------



## Magyarmum

The Latvian government have just given any citizen who wishes to Ukraine, permission to do so in order to fight along side the Ukrainians

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/latvia-allows-its-citizens-to-fight-in-ukraine

*Latvia allows its citizens to fight in Ukraine*

And a team of British and American special operations forces veterans are preparing to leave Poland.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...o-military-veterans-fight-russia-with-ukraine

*A Team Of American And British Special Forces Veterans Are Preparing To Join Ukraine's Fight Against Russia*


----------



## Maurey

Rough translation of what happened during the negotiations today, that is known of:

“
The negotiations lasted about five hours. According to Podolyak, the purpose of the discussions was a ceasefire and end of hostilities in Ukraine.

“The parties have identified priority topics, certain solutions have been outlined. In order for them to be implemented, the parties leave for consultations in their capitals,” Podolyak said. He added that the delegations also discussed the possibility of holding a second round of negotiations in the near future.

The head of the Russian delegation, presidential adviser Vladimir Medinsky, said that the parties "have found some points by which common positions can be predicted." The delegations will consult with the leaders of their countries and continue negotiations in the coming days. The next meeting will take place on the Polish-Belarusian border.

Russia launched an invasion of Ukraine on 24 February. On February 27, the countries agreed to hold talks. Russia planned to arrange them in Gomel, stating that this city was proposed by the leadership of Ukraine.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said that Kyiv does not want to hold talks in Belarus, since Russian troops launched rockets into Ukrainian territory from there. He suggested any neutral country.

As a result, the parties agreed to meet in the Gomel region near the Ukrainian-Belarusian border in a residence on the banks of the Pripyat River.

The Ukrainian delegation includes Mikhail Podolyak, as well as the head of the faction of the ruling Servant of the People party in the Verkhovna Rada, David Arakhamia, and the Minister of Defense of Ukraine Oleksiy Reznikov. The Russian one includes Vladimir Medinsky, as well as representatives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Defense and the presidential administration.”


----------



## willa

Whilst Ukraine and Russia were having the talks. Putin was bombing civilian homes.

it’s beyond horrifying, the Ukrainians are being so unbelievably courageous. I’d like to think I’d have the courage they are showing, but I don’t think I would.

I also feel incredibly sad for the innocent Russian’s, who are also victims in this war .
So many are against this conflict


----------



## Oof

willa said:


> Whilst Ukraine and Russia were having the talks. Putin was bombing civilian homes.
> 
> it's beyond horrifying, the Ukrainians are being so unbelievably courageous. I'd like to think I'd have the courage they are showing, but I don't think I would.
> 
> I also feel incredibly sad for the innocent Russian's, who are also victims in this war .
> So many are against this conflict


i agree, there's a lot of 'Russian hate' doing the rounds on social media.

I don't believe this is a russian problem , it's a putin problem.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Just seen horrific clip showing a breeder of GSDs executed by Russian war criminals cannot call the soldiers… his dogs were killed too.. the only surviving one stayed guarding their bodies.

Today a small demonstration here , Ukrainians, Polish, local, English and a couple of Russians …

They are very, very shaken that their compatriots who live around here, in “free world” still have their heads in Soviet Union.

I see their posts “so many wars” why you kick fuss about this one?
Or Russia can’t allow Ukraine etc… to be in NATO…
Or “we got it for war effort and it is ours”…
Or Ukrainians supported Nazi …
So they justify this barbaric attack by history - 80 years ago!!!
:Banghead

Putin is mad, power mad and will not stop at Ukraine. He does not care about human life, he does not care how many die or how it will affect ordinary people on either side.


Will not stop until he is stopped.
Apease him is like appeasing Hitler.

This is not about Ukraine, it is about free world.


----------



## MollySmith

Ways to help Ukraine (all links checked)

Check your facts to avoid false information and propaganda with a fact check site like Full Fact

The AUGB have been helping refugees since 1940s
https://www.gofundme.com/f/helpukraine

Save Life UA helps the war effort
https://savelife.in.ua/donate/

The British Red Cross is accepting monetary donations
https://donate.redcross.org.uk/appeal/ukraine-crisis-appeal

Join a peace rally
https://standwithukraine.live/

Remind people of the right language to use
https://comms2point0.co.uk/comms2po...ut-and-support-ukraine-by-a-british-ukrainian

Lots of links on Global Help
https://how-to-help-ukraine-now.super.site/

Go Fund me have set up a central site of donation links
https://www.gofundme.com/c/act/donate-to-ukraine-relief

IFAW
https://www.ifaw.org/eu

Animal Charities list
https://www.animalscharities.co.uk/ukraine

Write, tweet and email your MP about waiving Visas (and about The Nationality and borders Bill)

https://www.bigissue.com/news/activ...nality-and-borders-bill-re-enters-parliament/

https://www.ukrainianlondon.co.uk/write-a-letter-to-your-mp-to-stop-the-war-in-ukraine/


----------



## Magyarmum

Taking a refugee train from Kiev to Hungary.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220227-helpful-hungarians-rush-to-aid-of-fleeing-ukrainians

*Helpful Hungarians rush to aid of fleeing Ukrainians*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Ukrainians leave everything behind but not their animals …


----------



## Happy Paws2

I just wish our Government would do more, instead of making these poor people jump though hoops to get visas.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Ukrainians leave everything behind but not their animals …
> View attachment 484893


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ts-dogs-neighbouring-nations-relax-rules.html

*Pets join Ukraine evacuation: Refugees flee Putin's advancing army with cats and dogs after being given permission to take animals without vet paperwork*


----------



## Magyarmum

According to today's Politico

LATEST CASUALTIES UPDATE FROM THE UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES

The Ukrainian Armed Forces shared what it says are the latest losses on the Russian side from February 24 to March 1 at 6 a.m.

As follows: 5,710 casualties and 200 prisoners of war. Destroyed and damaged planes 29; helicopters 29; tanks 198; armored vehicles 846; artillery systems 77; air defense systems 7; multiple rocket launchers 24; fuel tankers 60; drones 3; boats 2; and light-armored vehicles 305.

The post further says that the “data is being updated” and that “the calculations are complicated by the high intensity of the combat.”


----------



## Maurey

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...an_troops_are_leaving_their-wwxil1u6slk81.mp4

Video of kids (young men on mandatory service) who didn't want to be there heading back to Russia on foot. I hope the repercussions they face aren't worse than dying in the war.


----------



## Dave S

Maurey said:


> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...an_troops_are_leaving_their-wwxil1u6slk81.mp4
> 
> Video of kids (young men on mandatory service) who didn't want to be there heading back to Russia on foot. I hope the repercussions they face aren't worse than dying in the war.


So, so sad. They are children, May Putin rot in his Russian hell.


----------



## Dave S

One thing I have found out from an acquaintance who is "in the know" is that a majority of Russian troops there are akin to Sunday league footballers, the premiership footballers have not gone in yet and when they do it will be over pretty soon.


----------



## MollySmith

*More places donate or learn*

On Facebook, the Linocut Friends of whom I'm a member are creating prints in the colours of the Ukraine flag. Honey Thief is selling mini prints to raise funds and so is Edinburgh Printmaker member Mashatiplady. I will share links on social of artists selling artwork to raise funds as this group of mostly one-wo/man-band artists get their shops sorted out.

Learn LinkedIn and other business skills
To help women and children in refugee camps in Ukraine get a ticket to this online LinkedIn training event on Monday 7 March 2022 1.00pm-2.30pm GMT with all experts donating time for free. You can book here

You can use country filters on sites like Etsy, to narrow down the location. It's obviously going to be a problem shipping anything physical but you can look for digital or downloadable which means your money goes to the maker and they are still providing you with a product.

The Literary Hub published this list of books by authors from Ukraine.
The Keeper of Books on Twitter created several posts of fiction and non-fiction box

This weekend you can watch UK writers read the translated works of Urkraine writers with donation tickets going to the Red Cross.
https://lyrictheatre.co.uk/whats-on...rTytzXYk8_n_fNsm0auPp9XrWkXMbRzvCh5NwfZTC4a9k
*
And continue to put pressure on MPs over waving of VISAs and Fact Check everything before you share it. 

I'll add more to this thread when I have them.
*


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## daveos

Putin really losing the plot threatening nuclear war now he has used banned weapons also seen the pictures of innocent people being targeted by these weapons absolute filthy animal.
We really need to go in and take action against this enough is enough the world united can destroy this evil before it is to late.
People of Russia need to rise up make your voices heard and dispose of this Nazi scumbag.


----------



## Beth78

daveos said:


> Putin really losing the plot threatening nuclear war now he has used banned weapons also seen the pictures of innocent people being targeted by these weapons absolute filthy animal.
> We really need to go in and take action against this enough is enough the world united can destroy this evil before it is to late.
> People of Russia need to rise up make your voices heard and dispose of this Nazi scumbag.


That would mean all out war which is a terrifying prospect.


----------



## willa

Saw a video on Twitter of a group of Russian fighters surrendering peacefully. All walking along the track looking totally deflated & some looked very very young .

feel really sorry for them. Some looked like school boys


----------



## daveos

Beth78 said:


> That would mean all out war which is a terrifying prospect.


I know its really bad and I have always been against wars but this is very serious that nutter can't go around committing genocide and threatening to destroy anybody he feels threatens him, He is very unstable and dangerous what he is doing is a crime against self determination he wants to wipe Ukraine from the earth it seems and if left he will go elsewhere and do the same if not a lot worse we cannot look away any longer I'm afraid.
It seems WW3 could be around the corner stand up to a bully and call his bluff.


----------



## Siskin




----------



## kimthecat

willa said:


> Saw a video on Twitter of a group of Russian fighters surrendering peacefully. All walking along the track looking totally deflated & some looked very very young .
> 
> feel really sorry for them. Some looked like school boys


They probably were. Straight from school . poor kids. 


@Siskin :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Meanwhile in Russia parents are desperate to send their boys away , any flight will do …people fear Stalin type regime is rising and who can tries to get out.
People from Russia who don’t agree with Putin try to get away because they can’t face living there.


----------



## DogLover1981

My grandparents, when they were alive, told me about how scary and upsetting World War 2 was. I now know how they felt. I think we have been in a *fairly* peaceful world for over half a century and humanity has just taken it for granted without working on it much or paying attention to the issue.


----------



## simplysardonic

Not sure if this link's been shared but there's ideas for how to help, apols if it's been added already:

https://supportukrainenow.org/?fbclid=IwAR0YkjmA4CbAOCN875TacQ-wHGp8XSAgdl8BB-jiGwunawC6P0IoIEDedcI


----------



## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> My grandparents, when they were alive, told me about how scary and upsetting World War 2 was. I now know how they felt. I think we have been in a *fairly* peaceful world for over half a century and humanity has just taken it for granted without working on it much or paying attention to the issue.


In a matter of days, I've completely changed many of my thoughts on the Iraq War, The Afghanistan War, others countries (including the USA) involvement in the Arab Spring. They were all serious escalations of war that should *never* happen again. Hopefully people learn from the past, especially the younger generations but who knows...

When you go into a war like Afghanistan, eventually the locals will grow the resent being occupied leading to all sorts of conflict, especially with the culture of some areas. It's almost the "Prime Directive" in Star Trek.


----------



## Jesthar

Interesting development, Google has removed the Russian state media outlet RT from its news search tool because of the complete rubbish and misinformation it keeps publishing.

In a breathtakingly hypocritical statement, RT's deputy editor-in-chief Anna Belkina said this was because the West are "terrified of a mere presence of any outside voice for the fear of losing their historically captive audience, if that audience encounters a different perspective" - this from the mouthpiece of a government that threatens any publication that doesn't parrot the official state line with fines and imprisonment...


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm just glad Trump isn't still in the white house, could you just imagine what he be doing


God knows! But Biden just referred to the ''Ukrainian people'' as ''Iranians'' and his VP was seen trying to mouth the right word to him. You couldn't make it up.


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> God knows! But Biden just referred to the ''Ukrainian people'' as ''Iranians'' and his VP was seen trying to mouth the right word to him. You couldn't make it up.


A bit like Diane Abbot eh?

She thinks they are Croatians


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> A bit like Diane Abbot eh?
> 
> She thinks they are Croatians


Does that really matter now, we have more important things to worry about at the moment, than what people said years ago.


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> Does that really matter now, we have more important things to worry about at the moment, than what people said years ago.


Indeed, well said 

And it could be a lot worse - Trump could still be in the White House, and I dread to think what line HE would be taking.

Either way, a couple of slips of the tongue are irrelevant compared with the massive volume of lies being pumped out by Soviet state media - and the amount of shells and rockets now being indiscriminately pumped IN to residential areas of Ukraine.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Does that really matter now, we have more important things to worry about at the moment, than what people said years ago.


I thought she said it yesterday?

She's also said that it's NATO that's at fault.

Thank goodness we didn't have Corbyn in No10


----------



## Jesthar

For those wondering just how far Putin and his cronies will go to keep a grip on the "there is no war" propaganda, it has been 100% confirmed that on Tuesday primary school children were arrested by police in Moscow for laying flowers at the Ukrainian embassy and holding signs saying "No to war" (sorry not sorry for the image size)


----------



## MollySmith

Deleted to keep us on topic


----------



## Jesthar

Guys, can we please keep the petty political topics out of this thread? It doesn't deserve the distraction


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> Guys, can we please keep the petty political topics out of this thread? It doesn't deserve the distraction


I don't class Diane Abbots views as petty. I find them disturbing


----------



## Magyarmum

My modest contribution for the Ukrainian refugees who have arrived safely in Hungary. Some 90 thousand at the last count. A small collection of food, tissues, soap, wet wipes and other toiletries plus several baby beanies and a baby blanket that I knitted during the lockdown. Also towels and some warm barely used sweaters, Wish I had another pair of hands then I could have knitted more baby things

Sadly, we heard today of the death of a Ukrainian GSD breeder who together with his six dogs was killed by Russian soldiers whilst trying to escape the country. And the well know owner of a dog shelter who was killed in a bombing raid. I'm just hoping the Peibys manage to get out safely.

Only realised this afternoon, I can get Russian TV so decided to listen to the news, not that I can understand a word of Russian! Quite revealing! Absolutely no footage or mention of what's happening in Ukraine. They did mention though the oil prices and Biden's State of the Union speech but not what he said. Shall watch again to see if anything alters just out of interest.


----------



## Jesthar

Bless you, @Magyarmum 

Sadly, I heard from the cat fancy a Spyhnx breeder was killed in a direct hit a few days ago


----------



## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> Guys, can we please keep the petty political topics out of this thread? It doesn't deserve the distraction


yes, agree. Sorry, this could easily devolve into a political clique or Boris love-in or hate-in (guilty of the latter!)


----------



## MollySmith

*Donations 
*
Before you donate goods - PF'ers in the U.K., check the organisers have the paperwork in place. If not the process of getting goods out as a result of leaving the EU may be any issue. It may be more useful to donate money, raise funds through a sale or something else. Something I have heard of as being an issue and not a misplaced jibe at our status.


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> a couple of slips of the tongue


 Not a slip of the tongue with Biden - it's dementia; and people are understandably concerned that he is in charge of a world ''superpower'' and consequently many are hoping that he is simply a ''figurehead'' and not the one to be making decisions. That is obviously why it was mentioned.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Not a slip of the tongue with Biden - it's dementia; and people are understandably concerned that he is in charge of a world ''superpower'' and consequently many are hoping that he is simply a ''figurehead'' and not the one to be making decisions. That is obviously why it was mentioned.


They said the same thing about Trump and now the Americans are saying that Putin is rapidly becoming more and more delusional


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Only realised this afternoon, I can get Russian TV so decided to listen to the news, not that I can understand a word of Russian! Quite revealing! Absolutely no footage or mention of what's happening in Ukraine. They did mention though the oil prices and Biden's State of the Union speech but not what he said. Shall watch again to see if anything alters just out of interest.


There's a good article on the BBC about the how the state controlled Soviet media are reporting the war - sorry, the "special military operation to demilitarise and denazify Ukraine" 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60571737

I also hear from my (very reliable) tech sources that they are also playing pre-war footage of Ukrainian towns and cities and stating it is current footage, and that any footage that might be seen that shows the same areas destroyed is either digitally manipulated fakes, or the Ukrainians have deliberately blown up parts of their own cities to try and make Russia look bad.


----------



## MollySmith

Can we also keep to known facts too. PF is visible on Google.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Putin is rapidly becoming more and more delusional


I don't think there's much doubt about that! I remember Trump took (and supposedly passed) a ''cognitive ability test'' during his term of office.


----------



## MollySmith

Some good news, some parts of the U.K. have exceeded donations to aid Ukraine people
https://www.bigissue.com/news/these...RLPriT9dISbcnxGVbLkNJu_g-H44yQsZenWXxe7Df7ctc


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I feel utterly, utterly useless. I am someone who always feels better about things if they can do something tangible. Currently I feel like I want to offer my spare room to a family escaping the Ukraine. 

I never watch the news but we've been watching it and I have no idea what to say/what to think/how to help/what to do. It's just incomprehensible.


----------



## Jesthar

Mrs Funkin said:


> I feel utterly, utterly useless. I am someone who always feels better about things if they can do something tangible. Currently I feel like I want to offer my spare room to a family escaping the Ukraine.
> 
> I never watch the news but we've been watching it and I have no idea what to say/what to think/how to help/what to do. It's just incomprehensible.


I know the feeling, this has stressed me far more than Covid as there is simply nothing I can do that will directly physically help. Hence my now referring to my cat litter trays as "Vladimir Poo Tins" - it gives me one way to vent a bit!


----------



## NaomiM

Mrs Funkin said:


> I feel utterly, utterly useless. I am someone who always feels better about things if they can do something tangible. Currently I feel like I want to offer my spare room to a family escaping the Ukraine.
> 
> I never watch the news but we've been watching it and I have no idea what to say/what to think/how to help/what to do. It's just incomprehensible.


I completely agree.

The Pope has called a universal day of prayer for Ukraine today. I am not a Catholic but I do pray, and will be praying. It's more or less the only thing I can do.


----------



## MollySmith

If you donate here the U.K. Government match £1 for £1
https://www.dec.org.uk/


----------



## MollySmith

Mind you..... maybe we do need to question politics as opposed to picking holes in our political beliefs when this emerges, unfortunately the issue of politicians welcoming oligarchs money instead of refugees fleeing for their lives gets more murky and distasteful


----------



## white_shadow

Mrs Funkin said:


> I feel utterly, utterly useless.......
> 
> I have no idea what to say/what to think....It's just incomprehensible.










*https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60585603*​
I wonder when that happened - at night, maybe?

*A week ago, they lived like you and I*...........7 bloody days ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And, today, almost a million........*a*...*million*....*people....uprooted*. How to get one's head around that...?

_Can you even imagine?_


















.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

No @white_shadow  I can't


----------



## Jesthar

Something a little positive amongst the horrors. Talk about loving your enemies - but then again, the Ukrainians are very aware of who the REAL enemy is...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Meanwhile so many countries closed airspace but not UK.
Apparently because it may annoy Putin so much…
They gave Russian banks 30 days?
Russians did not give Ukraine 30 days to prepare!!!

Meanwhile Abramovych sells Chelsea and this money is to go to help Ukrainians.

Two Russian oligarchs Oleg Deripaska and Mikhail Friedman spoke against the war.
Brave of them all as Putin has really long hands… as you know well what happened to Berezovsky.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Meanwhile so many countries closed airspace but not UK.


I thought our airspace was closed a day before nearly everyone else?

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-is-closing-its-sky-for-russian-flights/


----------



## Jesthar

cheekyscrip said:


> Meanwhile so many countries closed airspace but not UK..


Eh? I thought we (the UK) closed our airspace to Russian craft several days ago...


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/russia-sanctions-guidance/russia-sanctions-guidance

RUSSIAN SANCTIONS GUIDENCE

As required by section 43 of the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018 ('the Sanctions Act'), the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs has provided this guidance to assist in the implementation of, and compliance with, the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 (the 'Regulations'), as amended from time to time.


----------



## Magyarmum

Some American friends of mine drove up to the Ukrainian/Hungarian border with a car and trailer loaded with goods needed by the refugees. Their second trip in as many days.

The good news, if you can call it that, was they were told there are enough provisions at the border to give to any future arrivals. Goods are still needed though in the various cities where refugees are being accommodated.

My friends arrived home with a Ukrainian grandmother, her daughter and baby granddaughter.


----------



## DogLover1981

I'm uneasy about how the Ukraine situation is being handled. The sanctions against Russia are rather extreme and concerning. Providing weapons to Ukraine is escalating the situation a little bit as well. The world economy is very interconnected and God knows what the impacts of such large sanctions could be. I imagine that the majority of the population of Russia had nothing to do with this war and this could hurt them as well.

The one thing I do agree with is banning Russian aircraft from the skies for the time being.


----------



## DanWalkersmum

I do not understand what the Russians gain from this invasion. It's almost as if Putin is bored and needs something to do.


----------



## Maurey

DanWalkersmum said:


> I do not understand what the Russians gain from this invasion. It's almost as if Putin is bored and needs something to do.


*We* gain nothing. It's not our war. Not our choice. Many of the people on the front lines are children barely out of school who never wanted to be there in the first place, just in mandatory service. Ever more people, even children, get arrested every day for peaceful protest because peaceful protest that isn't endorsed by the government is illegal. It's horrifying and we just want it to stop. The sanctions affect the innocent populace more than anything else.
If things turn to shit here I won't be able to leave to stay with my aunt in London, either, because I can't fly there, and I doubt trains are safe right now, if they're even running. The sanctions on trade means prices on everything that's not fully locally made will go sky high if this lasts long enough, even as the ruble is falling significantly every day. It's the people who are below and barely above the poverty line that will suffer the most.

What this war is actually about, **** knows, certainly not me. Maybe he's having a mid life (senior?) crisis and taking it out on everyone.


----------



## DanWalkersmum

Maurey said:


> What this war is actually about, **** knows, certainly not me. Maybe he's having a mid life (senior?) crisis and taking it out on everyone.


I can't see any other explanation.


----------



## Magyarmum

DanWalkersmum said:


> I do not understand what the Russians gain from this invasion. It's almost as if Putin is bored and needs something to do.


Perhaps you should read this article by Nina Khrushcheva.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...sion-of-ukraine-by-nina-l-khrushcheva-2022-02

*What's on Putin's Mind?*


----------



## Happy Paws2

white_shadow said:


> View attachment 484977
> 
> *https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60585603*​
> I wonder when that happened - at night, maybe?
> 
> *A week ago, they lived like you and I*...........7 bloody days ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> And, today, almost a million........*a*...*million*....*people....uprooted*. How to get one's head around that...?
> 
> _Can you even imagine?_
> 
> View attachment 484979
> 
> 
> View attachment 484980
> 
> .


It's so frightening, the poor children and pets must wonder what the h*ll is going on, I can't imagine how they must be feeling.


----------



## catz4m8z

DanWalkersmum said:


> I can't see any other explanation.


He sees himself as some sort of heroic leader, wants to create the legacy of a great Empire like Alexander the Great. In real terms of course it means that the sad tiny little man is just going to destroy lives and ruin everything he touches.
It must be so frustrating over there knowing that its only fear of Putin thats keeping the momentum of this thing going. Im sure that the majority of Russian people dont want this to be happening, all just an ego trip for a megalomaniac.


----------



## MollySmith

Maurey said:


> *We* gain nothing. It's not our war. Not our choice. Many of the people on the front lines are children barely out of school who never wanted to be there in the first place, just in mandatory service. Ever more people, even children, get arrested every day for peaceful protest because peaceful protest that isn't endorsed by the government is illegal. It's horrifying and we just want it to stop. The sanctions affect the innocent populace more than anything else.
> If things turn to shit here I won't be able to leave to stay with my aunt in London, either, because I can't fly there, and I doubt trains are safe right now, if they're even running. The sanctions on trade means prices on everything that's not fully locally made will go sky high if this lasts long enough, even as the ruble is falling significantly every day. It's the people who are below and barely above the poverty line that will suffer the most.
> 
> What this war is actually about, **** knows, certainly not me. Maybe he's having a mid life (senior?) crisis and taking it out on everyone.


It started in 2014 with the removal of the former, Putin ally and past Ukrainian President but it goes back further. This thread on Twitter is a useful guide. Yes it's a power trip but Western governments and Trump fuelled it. It's not a case of if but when as more backdated material appears. A report by a cross parliamentary committee in 2013 queried Russian influence in the UK politics, and latterly Brexit (I posted a link a few pages back).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498056686548013062


----------



## MollySmith

BBC checking process.


----------



## Happy Paws2

catz4m8z said:


> He sees himself as some sort of heroic leader, wants to create the legacy of a great Empire like Alexander the Great. In real terms of course it means that the sad tiny little man is just going to destroy lives and ruin everything he touches.
> It must be so frustrating over there knowing that its only fear of Putin thats keeping the momentum of this thing going. Im sure that the majority of Russian people dont want this to be happening, all just an ego trip for a megalomaniac.


.

I don't think the Russian people have any idea of what he is doing, if they are just watching state TV they are painting a completely different picture.


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> It started in 2014 with the removal of the former, Putin ally and past Ukrainian President but it goes back further. This thread on Twitter is a useful guide. Yes it's a power trip but Western governments and Trump fuelled it. It's not a case of if but when as more backdated material appears. A report by a cross parliamentary committee in 2013 queried Russian influence in the UK politics, and latterly Brexit (I posted a link a few pages back).
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498056686548013062


It actually goes back to WW2. If Putin is allowed to annexe Ukraine then which country is going to be the next?

I live in Hungary which has a border with Ukraine. Hungarians whilst they aren't panicking are flocking to the appropriate government department to apply for passports or to renew them.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...or-cunning-strategist-by-xavier-vives-2022-03

*Is There a Method to Putin's Madness?*

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/e...dienne]-20220303-[lestitres-coldroite/titre2]
*
Moldova, Georgia, Baltic countries, Finland... Why are these countries worried about Russian ambitions in Europe?*


----------



## Calvine

Maurey said:


> Maybe he's having a mid life (senior?) crisis and taking it out on everyone.


It's been suggested a few times that lockdown/covid has had a detrimental effect on his mental health; something certainly has.


----------



## Jesthar

Maurey said:


> *We* gain nothing. It's not our war. Not our choice. Many of the people on the front lines are children barely out of school who never wanted to be there in the first place, just in mandatory service. Ever more people, even children, get arrested every day for peaceful protest because peaceful protest that isn't endorsed by the government is illegal. It's horrifying and we just want it to stop. The sanctions affect the innocent populace more than anything else.
> If things turn to shit here I won't be able to leave to stay with my aunt in London, either, because I can't fly there, and I doubt trains are safe right now, if they're even running. The sanctions on trade means prices on everything that's not fully locally made will go sky high if this lasts long enough, even as the ruble is falling significantly every day. It's the people who are below and barely above the poverty line that will suffer the most.
> 
> What this war is actually about, **** knows, certainly not me. Maybe he's having a mid life (senior?) crisis and taking it out on everyone.


Thank you, Maurey. It is heartbreaking to hear, but very helpful to have an inside perspective. I wish more people could see this. Please believe me, most people outside Russia know ordinary Russians want no part of this.

May I ask a question? We know the Soviet state sponsored media (forgive me, but I cannot bring myself to dignify them by calling them Russian) are broadcasting a fantasy narrative about the war that would do any world class fiction writer proud - how much of what they say is believed by everyday Russian citizens do you think?


----------



## Maurey

Jesthar said:


> May I ask a question? We know the Soviet state sponsored media (forgive me, but I cannot bring myself to dignify them by calling them Russian) are broadcasting a fantasy narrative about the war that would do any world class fiction writer proud - how much of what they say is believed by everyday Russian citizens do you think?


Hard to say. I know most people my (20s) and even my mothers (40s, 50s) generation generally know better than to follow state media, though I wouldn't be surprised if some of the older generations bought into state media. The government is really cracking down on free media that's reporting what's actually going on. Some, like Dohzd, are no longer publishing because of it. Everyone I know follows sites like meduza which report from a much more liberal/less Russified POV.

I'm sure some people buy into state media, but if it were a significant part of the population, we wouldn't be getting this many protestors. The only reason there aren't more is fear of what will happen if you do protest rather than misinformation, imo. This day and age, most people are getting their news from the internet. Especially the younger people.


----------



## Beth78

I'm guessing Amazon haven't taken any action against all this yet. I saw a list of companies that have pulled out of Russia and amazon wasn't one of them.


----------



## Maurey

Beth78 said:


> I'm guessing Amazon haven't taken any action against all this yet. I saw a list of companies that have pulled out of Russia and amazon wasn't one of them.


Amazon doesn't exist here, so that's probably why lol. We could import from other counties' amazon websites, but shipping is ridiculous.


----------



## Beth78

Maurey said:


> Amazon doesn't exist here, so that's probably why lol. We could import from other counties' amazon websites, but shipping is ridiculous.


Oh I didn't know that. I bet there are oligarchs that have assets in amazon though.
2 oligarchs invested in holland and Barratt have had thier assets frozen.


----------



## Magyarmum

Maurey said:


> Hard to say. I know most people my (20s) and even my mothers (40s, 50s) generation generally know better than to follow state media, though I wouldn't be surprised if some of the older generations bought into state media. The government is really cracking down on free media that's reporting what's actually going on. Some, like Dohzd, are no longer publishing because of it. Everyone I know follows sites like meduza which report from a much more liberal/less Russified POV.
> 
> I'm sure some people buy into state media, but if it were a significant part of the population, we wouldn't be getting this many protestors. The only reason there aren't more is fear of what will happen if you do protest rather than misinformation, imo. This day and age, most people are getting their news from the internet. Especially the younger people.


I can get RT Television over here, so out of interest although I don't understand a word of Russian I decided to watch the 12 noon news.

Unlike yesterday there was footage of the Russian incursion into Ukraine. However it only showed Russian tanks rolling through villages not towns. Some damaged houses and wrecked tanks and military equipment (presumably Ukrainian) scattered along the roadside. People and cars going about their business as normal, and even welcoming the Russians like heroes who appear to be handing out provisions as part of their humanitarian aid to the country..

What was particularly noticeable was that there was absolutely nothing about the bombing and destruction in the cities.

I belong to a PF group which has several Russian members. A couple have become quite vociferous in their hatred of Ukraine and their support of Russia. This is one of the milder posters one of them has posted.


----------



## MollySmith

Magyarmum said:


> It actually goes back to WW2. If Putin is allowed to annexe Ukraine then which country is going to be the next?
> 
> I live in Hungary which has a border with Ukraine. Hungarians whilst they aren't panicking are flocking to the appropriate government department to apply for passports or to renew them.
> 
> https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...or-cunning-strategist-by-xavier-vives-2022-03
> 
> *Is There a Method to Putin's Madness?*
> 
> https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/e...dienne]-20220303-[lestitres-coldroite/titre2]
> *
> Moldova, Georgia, Baltic countries, Finland... Why are these countries worried about Russian ambitions in Europe?*


I know it does, - the link I posted explores recent knowledge, I think we'd break this website trying to list the murky history, it's grim.

I hope you're okay, in as much as you can be.


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> I know it does, - the link I posted explores recent knowledge, I think we'd break this website trying to list the murky history, it's grim.
> 
> I hope you're okay, in as much as you can be.


I know, you can almost go back to the year dot!

We're fine over here and life goes on as normal. Our main worry is for the safety of the ethnic Hungarian minority still living in Transcarpathian Ukraine.


----------



## Maurey

Rough translation of what happened during todays peace talks. Good news for once, though sad the war is still going on.


The second round of Russian-Ukrainian negotiations ended in the Brest region of Belarus. Assistant to the head of the Office of the President of Ukraine Mykhailo Podolyak said that the parties had agreed to create a humanitarian corridor for the withdrawal of civilians. A recording of his address was distributed by the press service of the Ukrainian president.

“The parties have reached an understanding on the joint provision of humanitarian corridors for the evacuation of the civilian population, as well as for the delivery of medicines and food to the places of the most fierce fighting, with the possibility of a temporary ceasefire for the period when the evacuation will be carried out in the sectors where it is being carried out,” Podolyak read out a communiqué following the talks.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DanWalkersmum said:


> I do not understand what the Russians gain from this invasion. It's almost as if Putin is bored and needs something to do.


He promised to "restore what Stalin got for his war effort" right back to the Berlin Wall.
I am not being sarcastic. He wants to destroy NATO.
After Ukraine will be Moldova, then Baltic States and so on…
Very much Hitler like.
He will not stop until stopped.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Maurey said:


> Hard to say. I know most people my (20s) and even my mothers (40s, 50s) generation generally know better than to follow state media, though I wouldn't be surprised if some of the older generations bought into state media. The government is really cracking down on free media that's reporting what's actually going on. Some, like Dohzd, are no longer publishing because of it. Everyone I know follows sites like meduza which report from a much more liberal/less Russified POV.
> 
> I'm sure some people buy into state media, but if it were a significant part of the population, we wouldn't be getting this many protestors. The only reason there aren't more is fear of what will happen if you do protest rather than misinformation, imo. This day and age, most people are getting their news from the internet. Especially the younger people.


I speak Russian and because of that socialised quite a bit with Russians who live here.
Incredible that many of them, living in Western Europe, with access to any TV channel etc, who speak English still support Putin!!!
Nice, normal people, with family etc…
They repeat Putin lies, they think NATO has to be destroyed, they think Ukraine is not a country but historically part of Russia, or that Ukraine had to be punished because wanted to join EU/ NATO.

They post Russian flag everywhere and post all the Putin propaganda on socia media as "their opinion " then complain that Putin is misunderstood…

Obviosly not all my Russian friends think so, some come to anti war demonstrations and help what they can.

So quite a bit of division.
Thank you for posting - people need to know many Russians are not proud of this war.
Many are equally shocked.


----------



## Maurey

cheekyscrip said:


> I speak Russian and because of that socialised quite a bit with Russians who live here.
> Incredible that many of them, living in Western Europe, with access to any TV channel etc, who speak English still support Putin!!!
> Nice, normal people, with family etc…
> They repeat Putin lies, they think NATO has to be destroyed, they think Ukraine is not a country but historically part of Russia, or that Ukraine had to be punished because wanted to join EU/ NATO.
> 
> They post Russian flag everywhere and post all the Putin propaganda on socia media as "their opinion " then complain that Putin is misunderstood…
> 
> Obviosly not all my Russian friends think so, some come to anti war demonstrations and help what they can.
> 
> So quite a bit of division.
> Thank you for posting - people need to know many Russians are not proud of this war.
> Many are equally shocked.


I'm surprised to hear people outside of Russia believe things like that  I suppose it might be something they learned from their parents. I had an ex friend in the UK boarding school I went to that believed he never did anything wrong (and I soon found out she was also a bigot, and her dad was misogynist, which probably led her to have similar beliefs), so that might be how that mentality persists, sadly.


----------



## Maurey

Magyarmum said:


> I belong to a PF group which has several Russian members. A couple have become quite vociferous in their hatred of Ukraine and their support of Russia. This is one of the milder posters one of them has posted.


Christ. Some people are just…. Ugh.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Just was watching the news and the families in Berlin waiting to home families who have fled the Ukraine brought a little tear to my eye. I think that's just what I would do if I lived in mainland Europe. 

(I can't do anything except give money and I don't have much of that. I'm part of a group of friends (there are 15 of us) who do gifts for "Big Birthdays". I'm having one next month, so I've asked the group that if they were going to do a gift, could they donate to the DEC instead. I've probably mortally offended them...)


----------



## Cully

Mrs Funkin said:


> Just was watching the news and the families in Berlin waiting to home families who have fled the Ukraine brought a little tear to my eye. I think that's just what I would do if I lived in mainland Europe.
> 
> (I can't do anything except give money and I don't have much of that. I'm part of a group of friends (there are 15 of us) who do gifts for "Big Birthdays". I'm having one next month, so I've asked the group that if they were going to do a gift, could they donate to the DEC instead. I've probably mortally offended them...)


I don't see why that would cause offence. Maybe it will influence the rest of the group to do the same.
Well done you Mrs F.


----------



## Jesthar

Just seen on the BBC that one of the cat fancies has banned Russian cats from competition, and that it will not allow cats bred in Russia to be registered with it outside of Russia.


----------



## Pawscrossed

2016, in those days when all we had to worry about was "On a warning made by David Cameron earlier today that Brexit could jeopardise peace in Europe, Johnson asserted that peace in Europe has been "guaranteed" by NATO. Oh Boris, you half wit.

https://www.itv.com/news/2016-05-09/boris-johnson-brexit-would-not-cause-ww3-in-europe

*(2016)

Peace in Europe could be at risk if Britain votes to leave the European Union, David Cameron has warned.*

The UK has regretted "turning its back" on Europe in the past, the PM said, arguing the EU had "helped reconcile" countries and maintain peace.

Was leaving the union a "risk worth taking", Mr Cameron asked.

But ex-London mayor Boris Johnson hit back, saying the EU's "anti-democratic tendencies" were "a force for instability and alienation".

_Mr Johnson also sparked criticism when he suggested the conflict in Ukraine was an example of "EU foreign policy-making on the hoof"._

Former Swedish prime minister Carl Bildt, as well as the official Remain campaign, branded him an "apologist for Putin".

Mr Johnson called for an apology, saying the comments were "absolutely contemptible" and that he had repeatedly condemned Russia's actions in Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36243296


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Just seen on the BBC that one of the cat fancies has banned Russian cats from competition, and that it will not allow cats bred in Russia to be registered with it outside of Russia.


I wonder if the same applies to dogs?

My Schnauzer boy Grisha was born in St Petersburg and is still registered there (It's also Putin's birthplace).

Not that it matters because I don't show him or compete with him.


----------



## Maurey

Jesthar said:


> Just seen on the BBC that one of the cat fancies has banned Russian cats from competition, and that it will not allow cats bred in Russia to be registered with it outside of Russia.


Not quite accurate. FIFE has made a statement that until the end of May

"No cat belonging to exhibitors living in Russia may be entered at any FIFe show outside Russia"

So it pretty much affects nobody. There are almost no FIFE breeders in Russia. Majority WCF, minority TICA and dual. Cats that are Russian and live outside Russia shouldn't be affected.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Maurey said:


> Not quite accurate. FIFE has made a statement that until the end of May
> 
> "No cat belonging to exhibitors living in Russia may be entered at any FIFe show outside Russia"
> 
> So it pretty much affects nobody. There are almost no FIFE breeders in Russia. Majority WCF, minority TICA and dual. Cats that are Russian and live outside Russia shouldn't be affected.


I wonder if Crufts are doing the same next week.

PS... just read they have banned all dogs and their owners from Russia.


----------



## Boxer123

Just watching about the children’s cancer wards in Ukraine. This is so heartbreaking and terrifying.


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## Calvine

willa said:


> Some looked like school boys


It's unbelievable: they look as though they should just be starting university, not getting themselves killed.


----------



## Happy Paws2

We normally only put to local charities we don't bother with large ones don't really trust them, but today we gave in and have donated to help Ukraine, we couldn't sit and watch these poor women and children leaving their home's and everything they own and having to leave their men behind to fight.

Couldn't put as much as we would have liked with all the bills going up, but hopefully anything is helpful.


----------



## lullabydream

Happy Paws2 said:


> We normally only put to local charities we don't bother with large ones don't really trust them, but today we gave in and have donated to help Ukraine, we couldn't sit and watch these poor women and children leaving their home's and everything they own and having to leave their men behind to fight.
> 
> Couldn't put as much as we would have liked with all the bills going up, but hopefully anything is helpful.


Every bit helps... I donated dog food the pet shop I use as they were collecting. To see the pictures of the donations received along with my own is amazing. So as I said earlier every little helps.


----------



## StormyThai

willa said:


> Some looked like school boys


They are...the really sad thing is that the army is full of kids doing mandated service.
They are all between the age of 18-27

It is might big and brave of Putin to send in a bunch of kids to do his deeds


----------



## daveos

Well Ukraine is reporting numerous rapes of women as the Russians rampage through what a bunch of animals just like they did in Germany in 1945.
Children are being killed civilians fired upon and a nuclear power station the biggest in Europe shelled, Will Nato UN or anybody please do something this is complete madness is everybody to scared to stand up for freedom the west looks pathetic we need to cut the head of the snake and fast.


----------



## Siskin

daveos said:


> Well Ukraine is reporting numerous rapes of women as the Russians rampage through what a bunch of animals just like they did in Germany in 1945.
> Children are being killed civilians fired upon and a nuclear power station the biggest in Europe shelled, Will Nato UN or anybody please do something this is complete madness is everybody to scared to stand up for freedom the west looks pathetic we need to cut the head of the snake and fast.


I guess it depends whether we want a nuclear war or not because that is what he will do if American or NATO forces enter Ukraine. I think he just wants to go out with a bang so that anyone who is left in the world will remember his name.

I was quite bemused to find he's only a year younger then me. I would t want to be running a country let alone taking it to war. Makes me really wonder if he has dementia and thinks everyone else is against him


----------



## daveos

Siskin said:


> I guess it depends whether we want a nuclear war or not because that is what he will do if American or NATO forces enter Ukraine. I think he just wants to go out with a bang so that anyone who is left in the world will remember his name.
> 
> I was quite bemused to find he's only a year younger then me. I would t want to be running a country let alone taking it to war. Makes me really wonder if he has dementia and thinks everyone else is against him


The way I see it is not if but when we go to war I'm afraid we go now or later.
I know he has threatened Nuclear attack but would he really do that he would ensure the total destruction of his beloved Russia and he also has children 3 daughters I think would he really put them through that probably not.
Action needs to be taken now rather than later.


----------



## Siskin

daveos said:


> The way I see it is not if but when we go to war I'm afraid we go now or later.
> I know he has threatened Nuclear attack but would he really do that he would ensure the total destruction of his beloved Russia and he also has children 3 daughters I think would he really put them through that probably not.
> Action needs to be taken now rather than later.


He believes he is right and invincible and I do believe he would go nuclear.
We're you around during the Cold War?


----------



## Beth78

On bbc news just now during a report in Ukraine I heard a great tit in the background, on my dog walk this morning I heard the same great tit call. It made me think about how we are all the same and how these people who have heard the same bird calls are now being ripped from thier homes and dragged into terror.


----------



## Jesthar

daveos said:


> The way I see it is not if but when we go to war I'm afraid we go now or later.
> I know he has threatened Nuclear attack but would he really do that he would ensure the total destruction of his beloved Russia and he also has children 3 daughters I think would he really put them through that probably not.
> Action needs to be taken now rather than later.


He's on the record a number of times using lines along the lines of "no Russia, no world" when discussing Russia being a leading world power/getting what he wants and in the context of nuclear armaments, so it's not a threat to be taken lightly. Also bear in mind that every time people have gone "he wouldn't do that" so far he has usually proved them wrong - two weeks ago, I doubt very many of us really thought he'd actually invade Ukraine, for example.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Beth78 said:


> On bbc news just now during a report in Ukraine I heard a great tit in the background, on my dog walk this morning I heard the same great tit call. It made me think about how we are all the same and how these people who have heard the same bird calls are now being ripped from thier homes and dragged into terror.


I think it is a very somber thing to realise that despite the geographical distance we are all just humans when it comes down to it. We all have our own little routines, we all get excited by small things such as a bird calling or when our favourite food is discounted in a supermarket, and we all have things we worry about and fear. It's something I think about a lot.


----------



## O2.0

Siskin said:


> We're you around during the Cold War?


I just did some math and realized that even those who are 40 now would only have been 7 when the Berlin Wall fell. 
It's not just that people don't remember. It's that many people simply never knew...
Those Russian soldiers, baby faced teens, they have no idea what they're fighting for.


----------



## Beth78

Does anyone else find putins face instantly annoying ? Like a deep, crawling annoyance that makes you want to punch it so bloody hard.


----------



## Siskin

O2.0 said:


> I just did some math and realized that even those who are 40 now would only have been 7 when the Berlin Wall fell.
> It's not just that people don't remember. It's that many people simply never knew...
> Those Russian soldiers, baby faced teens, they have no idea what they're fighting for.


I left Berlin in 1986, the wall fell 1989. When we left people were still trying to escape from the east and getting killed. One of husbands friends was killed, we felt things were escalating not improving.


----------



## stuaz

daveos said:


> The way I see it is not if but when we go to war I'm afraid we go now or later.
> I know he has threatened Nuclear attack but would he really do that he would ensure the total destruction of his beloved Russia and he also has children 3 daughters I think would he really put them through that probably not.
> Action needs to be taken now rather than later.


As soon as you have NATO forces engaging directly with Russian forces then everything changes. There is no going back from that and Putin would react.

Albert Einstein is famously linked to this quote: 
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones".

It would be devastating the world over to a level never seen before if the conflict escalated to the point of NATO direct involvement.


----------



## kimthecat

DEC appeal
https://www.dec.org.uk/?msclkid=98c...Branded Keywords&utm_term=dec&utm_content=DEC

According to the BBC they have raised 55 million so far,


----------



## DogLover1981

I did read that this invasion does serious damage to nuclear weapons nonproliferation. If the Ukraine military had nuclear weapons, they wouldn't have been invaded. The world could be a little more hazardous down the road.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

That's what they were saying on Question Time last night. I didn't realise Ukraine had done that until then.


----------



## willa

Just seen a video of some of the Sky News team, having bullets repeatedly fired at them


----------



## Jesthar

Oof, not only a perfect burn, but also technically accurate...


----------



## Pawscrossed

CocaCola is refusing to withdrawn from Russia. You may wish to boycott these brands.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Pawscrossed said:


> CocaCola is refusing to withdrawn from Russia. You may wish to boycott these brands.
> 
> View attachment 485059


I only drink water, squash and Coco-Cola so I'll have to find something else to drink as it's off my shopping list, may Lemon and Lime in future.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> I did read that this invasion does serious damage to nuclear weapons nonproliferation. If the Ukraine military had nuclear weapons, they wouldn't have been invaded. The world could be a little more hazardous down the road.





Mrs Funkin said:


> That's what they were saying on Question Time last night. I didn't realise Ukraine had done that until then.


Perhaps this article from the Arms Control Centre will help clarify the situation.

https://armscontrolcenter.org/nuclear-issues-in-the-ukraine-crisis/

*Nuclear Issues in the Ukraine Crisis*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Many sanctions look good only on paper… Russian ships can’t come?
Register them somewhere else - and there are no sanctions on where the goods,gas, oil comes from so everything goes on all the same…
So how many had assets frozen?Dragging their feet…
No flights- hurts a bit but not much if they just fly with a stop in Serbia or Turkey…etc…
Goods can’t be sold directly to Russia? No problem- will be sold to Serbia , Turkey and resold ( just paperwork really) to Russia…

Ukraine needs no fly zone over West Ukraine.
Fall of Ukraine is just a matter of days now.
By the way Russian generals are not that keen on nuclear operation- they know we have it too…
Putin will be allowed as Hitler was.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps this article from the Arms Control Centre will help clarify the situation.
> 
> https://armscontrolcenter.org/nuclear-issues-in-the-ukraine-crisis/
> 
> *Nuclear Issues in the Ukraine Crisis*


Quite well says that more less once it is over USA will carry on as they did after Odessa was taken.
Basically- Ukraine is not in NATO and we can't really be that bothered.
This is what Putin really counts on.
Every time he invades another country he will say "Booo, Nukies" and USA will show the belly…

This really shows that there is no hope for Ukraine.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Many sanctions look good only on paper… Russian ships can't come?
> Register them somewhere else - and there are no sanctions on where the goods,gas, oil comes from so everything goes on all the same…
> So how many had assets frozen?Dragging their feet…
> No flights- hurts a bit but not much if they just fly with a stop in Serbia or Turkey…etc…
> Goods can't be sold directly to Russia? No problem- will be sold to Serbia , Turkey and resold ( just paperwork really) to Russia…
> 
> Ukraine needs no fly zone over West Ukraine.
> Fall of Ukraine is just a matter of days now.
> By the way Russian generals are not that keen on nuclear operation- they know we have it too…
> Putin will be allowed as Hitler was.


Exactly! I lived in South Africa during the apartheid era and there were plenty of ways to get money out and essential goods in. As you say goods were sold to a neighbouring country then sent on to SA.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Exactly! I lived in South Africa during the apartheid era and there were plenty of ways to get money out and essential goods in. As you say goods were sold to a neighbouring country then sent on to SA.


SA is a good example - all condemnation and for years nothing changed….


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> SA is a good example - all condemnation and for years nothing changed….


The good thing was that in the end SA changed itself! Maybe there's hope after all!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Well it’s certainly one way to stop my Diet Coke habit…


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Many sanctions look good only on paper… Russian ships can't come?
> Register them somewhere else - and there are no sanctions on where the goods,gas, oil comes from so everything goes on all the same…
> So how many had assets frozen?Dragging their feet…
> No flights- hurts a bit but not much if they just fly with a stop in Serbia or Turkey…etc…
> Goods can't be sold directly to Russia? No problem- will be sold to Serbia , Turkey and resold ( just paperwork really) to Russia…
> 
> Ukraine needs no fly zone over West Ukraine.
> Fall of Ukraine is just a matter of days now.
> By the way Russian generals are not that keen on nuclear operation- they know we have it too…
> Putin will be allowed as Hitler was.


I really don't think it will be as easy as that for him, the world governments aren't that daft they will have thought about that.

I agree a no fly zone is needed but I think that will be a last resort.


----------



## Maurey

More negotiations today or tomorrow. I’m not religious, but I pray they’re able to work something out that would stop this madness.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> The good thing was that in the end SA changed itself! Maybe there's hope after all!


There is not so much because at least white people were free to make that decision.
In Russia protests are now really outlawed by the new law - anyone who says there is war can be imprisoned for 15 years.
Mothers with children arrested for laying flowers at Ukraine embassy…they might lose parental rights…
Russia in effect is now a totalitarian state with the level of freedom of North Korea…
Russians will simply keep quiet if not brainwashed…
Only if Putin can't make the top layer happy he is in trouble.
This is why real sanctions against his cronies matter.


Happy Paws2 said:


> I really don't think it will be as easy as that for him, the world governments aren't that daft they will have thought about that.
> 
> I agree a no fly zone is needed but I think that will be a last resort.


Now is the time for the last resort!
HP - but of course governments are not daft.
They know what looks good PR and what actually works… 
Going green and independent from fossil fuel is the way but takes time.
Now measures that choke Russia now for real can make those around Putin rethink… they are the ones who can get rid of him and replace him with less mad individual.
Russian army support Putin but I doubt they support the use of nuclear weapons as there will be obvious consequences.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Maurey said:


> More negotiations today or tomorrow. I'm not religious, but I pray they're able to work something out that would stop this madness.


I pray with you xxxx


----------



## Jobeth

A no fly zone means declaring war on Russia and I doubt that they will do that for a non NATO country. Hopefully the negotiations will be successful.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> 2016, in those days when all we had to worry about was "On a warning made by David Cameron earlier today that Brexit could jeopardise peace in Europe, Johnson asserted that peace in Europe has been "guaranteed" by NATO. Oh Boris, you half wit.
> 
> https://www.itv.com/news/2016-05-09/boris-johnson-brexit-would-not-cause-ww3-in-europe
> 
> *(2016)
> 
> Peace in Europe could be at risk if Britain votes to leave the European Union, David Cameron has warned.*
> 
> The UK has regretted "turning its back" on Europe in the past, the PM said, arguing the EU had "helped reconcile" countries and maintain peace.
> 
> Was leaving the union a "risk worth taking", Mr Cameron asked.
> 
> But ex-London mayor Boris Johnson hit back, saying the EU's "anti-democratic tendencies" were "a force for instability and alienation".
> 
> _Mr Johnson also sparked criticism when he suggested the conflict in Ukraine was an example of "EU foreign policy-making on the hoof"._
> 
> Former Swedish prime minister Carl Bildt, as well as the official Remain campaign, branded him an "apologist for Putin".
> 
> Mr Johnson called for an apology, saying the comments were "absolutely contemptible" and that he had repeatedly condemned Russia's actions in Ukraine.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36243296


Surprised this isn't liked more. Yes there's a lot of evidence coming out about Brexit and Russia, and of course Williamson being knighted.

The Sunday Times published articles by Theresa May on Russian interference in our elections including the referendum on leaving the EU way back in 2015 I think. I forget but I'm sure they will pop up again. And there is this from Business Insider on the PM's close friendship
https://www.businessinsider.com/bor...ith-russian-spy-who-called-him-friend-2019-11

I'm treading carefully because people know my views on leaving the EU and it's still contentious. But it's interesting - no alarming - to note that Dominic Cummings had plenty to say on Covid but nothing on Russia and Johnson is giving these oligarchs plenty of time to extract their money from our country whereas other places are kicking them out immediately.

Yup, we can say no politics but this war is based on it and the more stuff that is being revealed about recent events in UK history that divided us as a nation it makes us look like a pawn in a big game. And the amount of information withheld by the leave campaign to the public about the impact is astonishing. Especially when it was known about a invasion, as your links evidence. Cameron knew. May knew. So did Johnson and they were all open to bribery. No wonder we're not waving Visas. We have to stick to Brexit rules because Russia wants us to.


----------



## Cully

How long is it going to be before someone, maybe one of his own Generals, puts a bullet through Putin's deranged egocentric brain???
We know the history of WWII. Much pain and suffering could have been stopped if Hitler had been killed at the beginning. Have we learned *nothing* yet?


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> CocaCola is refusing to withdrawn from Russia. You may wish to boycott these brands.
> 
> View attachment 485059


Russia is only one of many reasons why people should boycott, deforestation, palm oil and workers rights are others.


----------



## cheekyscrip

When Britain left EU Russian investors swarmed in … or even before…
No wonder they delay any sanctions or bank closures.

EU danger for UK was amplified by Russian propaganda hidden behind supposedly British posters (unless they forgot to change location).
Now it is not easy neither for EU or UK to wean themselves from dependency on Russia but it has to be done.
Rehab time.


----------



## catz4m8z

Cully said:


> How long is it going to be before someone, maybe one of his own Generals, puts a bullet through Putin's deranged egocentric brain???
> We know the history of WWII. Much pain and suffering could have been stopped if Hitler had been killed at the beginning. Have we learned *nothing* yet?


I was thinking a ricin sandwich would be more poetic TBH....


----------



## Magyarmum

Cully said:


> How long is it going to be before someone, maybe one of his own Generals, puts a bullet through Putin's deranged egocentric brain???
> We know the history of WWII. Much pain and suffering could have been stopped if Hitler had been killed at the beginning. Have we learned *nothing* yet?


There were 6 attempts to kill Hitler, most undertaken by members of the 3rd Reich. The last one was by Claus von Stauffenberg in 1944.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts_on_Adolf_Hitler


----------



## Happy Paws2

Why do we have wait until Monday to change the law to take Russian Oligarchs property, is it to give them time to get out all they can before we can remove it, we know many of them are friends of Boris and fund the tory party.


----------



## Magyarmum

Just learnt some great news! The seven Peibys have arrived safely in Budapest after a 48 hour journey from Ukraine to Prague. They were then collected by some Hungarian Shar-Pei breeders I know and brought into the country!


----------



## Boxer123

Magyarmum said:


> Just learnt some great news! The seven Peibys have arrived safely in Budapest after a 48 hour journey from Ukraine to Prague. They were then collected by some Hungarian Shar-Pei breeders I know and brought into the country!


Is one coming your way ?


----------



## SbanR

Magyarmum said:


> Just learnt some great news! The seven Peibys have arrived safely in Budapest after a 48 hour journey from Ukraine to Prague. They were then collected by some Hungarian Shar-Pei breeders I know and brought into the country!


How old are they. Is mum and breeder safe as well?


----------



## Magyarmum

Boxer123 said:


> Is one coming your way ?





SbanR said:


> How old are they. Is mum and breeder safe as well?


I think they're about 7 weeks old. Victoria didn't say anything in her post about the mum. I believe, but am not sure that their breeder has returned to Ukraine.

I've said I'll take a little boy, but have still to hear if there's a boy available. I just hope the small black hairy creature won't object, but having said that he did grow up with Georgina. Grisha would be delighted to have a dog to play with as Gwylim finds him a bit too boisterous.

Gabor and I were laughing yesterday about Grisha being born a White Russian.. We more or less decided to change his name to Fido


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just seen this, China showing it's colours.....
China will not show Premier League games this weekend due to solidarity messages for Ukraine.


----------



## Maurey

Happy Paws2 said:


> Just seen this, China showing it's colours.....
> China will not show Premier League games this weekend due to solidarity messages for Ukraine.


Mighty hypocritical of them to stand with Ukraine. Given this is all they seem to be doing, I think this is just political virtue signaling tbh, and their government doesn't actually care.


----------



## MollySmith

And more. None of them have been welcome in my home for years. Interesting that it is war that makes people boycott not deforestation, the planet, use of microplastics and the rights of other humans...


----------



## MollySmith

cheekyscrip said:


> When Britain left EU Russian investors swarmed in … or even before…
> No wonder they delay any sanctions or bank closures.
> 
> EU danger for UK was amplified by Russian propaganda hidden behind supposedly British posters (unless they forgot to change location).
> Now it is not easy neither for EU or UK to wean themselves from dependency on Russia but it has to be done.
> Rehab time.


Yes. The level of investment and what our government must have known - well connected Putin aids buying into nights out and golf matches with Cameron, Johnson, May, Truss - makes us as a country look culpable. Well, we are but many of us had no idea.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Maurey said:


> Mighty hypocritical of them to stand with Ukraine. Given this is all they seem to be doing, I think this is just political virtue signaling tbh, and their government doesn't actually care.


China are not standing with Ukraine, they don`t wish their public to see any support for Ukraine hence them not showing premier football games.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I believe McDonalds and KFC are still trading in Russia.


----------



## Lurcherlad

MollySmith said:


> And more. None of them have been welcome in my home for years. Interesting that it is war that makes people boycott not deforestation, the planet, use of microplastics and the rights of other humans...
> 
> View attachment 485065


Tbf it's much more "in our faces" when people are dying practically in front of us and others, including women and children are shown fleeing from an invading army.

Difficult to ignore.

One would need a heart of stone not to be moved.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Russian driver Nikita Mazepin has been sacked by the Haas team as a result of his country's invasion of Ukraine.

The US-based outfit have also terminated the contract of their title sponsor, the Russian chemicals company Uralkali.

Uralkali is part-owned by Mazepin's billionaire father Dmitry, a close associate of Russian President Vladimir Putin, through his company Uralchem.


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> Yes. The level of investment and what our government must have known - well connected Putin aids buying into nights out and golf matches with Cameron, Johnson, May, Truss - makes us as a country look culpable. Well, we are but many of us had no idea.


I imagine you do not follow him but Andrew Neil is publishing an article today in the Daily Mail on how Ukraine is saving Johnson's reputation (!). Over on Twitter he implied in the counter claim way he mishandles time and time again, if people could share evidence of Corbyn going against Russia, the point being he thought there would be none. There are now 500 replies with evidence citing Neil of poor practice and slander.


----------



## Cully

Been bitten on the bum has he? Good!


----------



## catz4m8z

What depresses me is that we cant seem to go for more then a decade without some sort of global conflict breaking out. Seems like there will always be some tinpot dictator and tyrant willing to take advantage.


----------



## kimthecat

Jobeth said:


> A no fly zone means declaring war on Russia and I doubt that they will do that for a non NATO country. Hopefully the negotiations will be successful.


Yes, the main worry that having a no fly zone will escalate into world war 3 between East and West . Many, many more people would die and that could be our children and grandchildren .


----------



## kimthecat

good news . Zoo animals reach safety ,

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ildlife-park-reach-safety-in-poland-smqbx2kmm


----------



## Happy Paws2

Have you noticed how quiet the children are not one of them crying just looking stunned.


----------



## David C

A cat breeder friend in Mariopol hasn't been heard from by anyone for 3 days. She stayed because she couldn't get all of her cats out, 2 with litters of kittens 2 pregnant and other cats. She was in contact with everyone constantly then nothing for the past 3 days. We can only hope and pray she's still alive :-(


----------



## rona

David C said:


> A cat breeder friend in Mariopol hasn't been heard from by anyone for 3 days. She stayed because she couldn't get all of her cats out, 2 with litters of kittens 2 pregnant and other cats. She was in contact with everyone constantly then nothing for the past 3 days. We can only hope and pray she's still alive :-(


Hopefully, just lack of power


----------



## Oof

David C said:


> A cat breeder friend in Mariopol hasn't been heard from by anyone for 3 days. She stayed because she couldn't get all of her cats out, 2 with litters of kittens 2 pregnant and other cats. She was in contact with everyone constantly then nothing for the past 3 days. We can only hope and pray she's still alive :-(


I think there was a signal problem (if this is recent) - my friend has just made it to Warsaw, and for a couple of days i didn't hear from her. She said internet connection/phones have been iffy. Fingers crossed its that


----------



## SbanR

Magyarmum said:


> Gabor and I were laughing yesterday about Grisha being born a White Russian.. We more or less decided to change his name to Fido


Fido!:Woot You're joking I hope. He demands a more aristocratic name or you'll get temper tantrums


----------



## Jesthar

So Shell have decided to start buying Russian oil again. Time for me to stop buying from them, then...


----------



## stuaz

Visa and Mastercard have announced suspension of operations in Russia - another huge blow to the enconomy and further turning of Russia into a larger North Korea....


----------



## spotty cats

David C said:


> A cat breeder friend in Mariopol hasn't been heard from by anyone for 3 days. She stayed because she couldn't get all of her cats out, 2 with litters of kittens 2 pregnant and other cats. She was in contact with everyone constantly then nothing for the past 3 days. We can only hope and pray she's still alive :-(


I hope they're alright, it's such a worry losing contact. My breeder friend in Kyiv said so many breeders had to stay, she's been able to maintain contact so far.

Hopefully you'll hear from your friend soon.


----------



## Maurey

Next round of peace talks has been organized for tomorrow. Really hope this madness ends.


----------



## Maurey

David C said:


> A cat breeder friend in Mariopol hasn't been heard from by anyone for 3 days. She stayed because she couldn't get all of her cats out, 2 with litters of kittens 2 pregnant and other cats. She was in contact with everyone constantly then nothing for the past 3 days. We can only hope and pray she's still alive :-(


Currently problems with internet and mobile connectivity in that area. Hope all is well.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Oof said:


> I think there was a signal problem (if this is recent) - my friend has just made it to Warsaw, and for a couple of days i didn't hear from her. She said internet connection/phones have been iffy. Fingers crossed its that


Must such a relief to finally hear from her.



Maurey said:


> Next round of peace talks has been organized for tomorrow. Really hope this madness ends.


Hopefully they they will but I doubt it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

David C said:


> A cat breeder friend in Mariopol hasn't been heard from by anyone for 3 days. She stayed because she couldn't get all of her cats out, 2 with litters of kittens 2 pregnant and other cats. She was in contact with everyone constantly then nothing for the past 3 days. We can only hope and pray she's still alive :-(


Fingers crossed you hear from her soon.


----------



## Magyarmum

SbanR said:


> Fido!:Woot You're joking I hope. He demands a more aristocratic name or you'll get temper tantrums


This was his reaction when we told him about his new name


----------



## cheekyscrip

https://wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/wyda...ja-zwierzeta-ukraina-wojna-rosja-zoo.html.amp
Polish zoo from Wrocław managed to evacuate the zoo… animals survived.
My home town took 100 dogs from Ukraine shelters and hopefully they will get adopted soon.
One of my friends on her way there.


----------



## Magyarmum

Kharkiv today which is one of the largest cities in Ukraine.


----------



## Happy Paws2

NATO must do something, it's so heart breaking watching people who a couple of weeks ago had normal lives like just like us, now having to rely on charity and the kindness of strangers to help them.


----------



## teddylion

It's absolutely heartbreaking - those pictures of people with their pets, in particular, have done me in. They're just everyday people like us.

The problem is, what more can NATO do, other than sanctions and sending weapons (which we're already doing.) If we send troops he will declare war on the west and millions more people will die; even imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine could drag us into a world war. Putin has us over a barrel - this whole situation is nightmarish.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Someone has to kill Putin. It's the only answer.


----------



## Magyarmum

teddylion said:


> It's absolutely heartbreaking - those pictures of people with their pets, in particular, have done me in. They're just everyday people like us.
> 
> The problem is, what more can NATO do, other than sanctions and sending weapons (which we're already doing.) If we send troops he will declare war on the west and millions more people will die; even imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine could drag us into a world war. Putin has us over a barrel - this whole situation is nightmarish.


Putin has already stated that sanctions are akin to a declaration of war.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...anctions-are-akin-declaration-war-2022-03-05/

I was listening to an interview last night on CNN with an American financier who had done business in Russia and knew Putin personally. He was saying that Putin has no "reverse gear" and once he decides on something he will pursue it at all costs. In his estimation the only way to defeat him was not only to cut off access to his money but more importantly to cut off the oil and gas supplies from the country. because it's the revenue from gas and oil which provide him with most of the money to fund the war.


----------



## Magyarmum

Pawscrossed said:


> Someone has to kill Putin. It's the only answer.


Many have tried but none have succeeded


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Kharkiv today which is one of the largest cities in Ukraine.


By the time he gets it, there will be no-one left in the country and scarcely a building standing. Total lunacy.


----------



## Calvine

What is quite scary is the way he is behaving as though life is normal . . . photos in several papers of him just yesterday posing with Aeroflot flight personnel; they smiling happily down on him and he with a grim threatening smirk; all as if life is perfectly normal.
Glamorous Aeroflot Flight Attendants Shower Putin With Flowers - Live and Let's Fly (liveandletsfly.com)


----------



## teddylion

His sanctions comments are worrying in the extreme. 

Being ex-KGB, I expect Putin knows exactly how someone get him and how to avoid it, hence those ridiculously long tables. Imagine his paranoia.

That's interesting about the only way to stop him is by cutting off the fuel supplies, but I'm confused because wouldn't he take this as an act of aggression and declare war on the west anyway?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Close the air space over West Ukraine- if not it is a death sentence for them.
Putin threatened already over sanctions… don’t give in.

It is Ukraine, it about Europe and the safe world.
Putin will not stop.


----------



## Happy Paws2

We are heading for WW111 as it is, his already got his eye on Finland


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> By the time he gets it, there will be no-one left in the country and scarcely a building standing. Total lunacy.


And don't forget if Ukraine becomes an occupied territory, the Russians have well defined humanitarian obligations to the population. Failure to fulfill those obligations constitutes a war crime. Not that Putin seems to care because by the act of targeting the civilian population in Ukraine he's already committing war crimes

I've heard it said that to occupy the whole of Ukraine even with a severely diminished population and have to pay for the "privilege" of doing so is more than Russia could afford to do for any length of time.

https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/occupied-territory/

*The Practical Guide to Humanitarian Law*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Atm Russian soldiers are targeting fleeing Ukrainians even during ceasefire.
People who have not left yet are terrified to go.
My family in Kharkov say they can’t move now.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Magyarmum said:


> And don't forget if Ukraine becomes an occupied territory, the Russians have well defined humanitarian obligations to the population. Failure to fulfill those obligations constitutes a war crime. Not that Putin seems to care because by the act of targeting the civilian population in Ukraine he's already committing war crimes
> 
> I've heard it said that to occupy the whole of Ukraine even with a severely diminished population and have to pay for the "privilege" of doing so is more than Russia could afford to do for any length of time.
> 
> https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/occupied-territory/
> 
> *The Practical Guide to Humanitarian Law*


By what I've read, Putin isn't interested in occupying the whole Ukraine. But wants the donbass region and key areas by the Black Sea. He wants to defeat Kiev and then instate a Russian friendly leader of Ukraine. Not one that is friendly with the west and Nato etc.

Whatever his motives he is pure evil. Killing innocent people and kids, and bare faced lying to his own people saying there is no invasion of Ukraine. The equipment he is using is abominable like the theromobaric and cluster bombs on civilians. All while he hides in his bunker


----------



## kimthecat

On the BBc news at lunch time, An town near the Crimea area , supposed to have a safe corridor for people to leave and they are being fired at and bombed.
They have no food or electric and are basically under seige .
That is another war crime .

ETA The city is Mariupol.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> On the BBc news at lunch time, An town near the Crimea area , supposed to have a safe corridor for people to leave and they are being fired at and bombed.
> They have no food or electric and are basically under seige .
> That is another war crime .


And awful photos - one of someone covered with a blanket/sheet (presumably killed) with a suitcase one side of her, and the other side a cat carrier. And soldiers tending to another - dying or already dead; who knows. And just as we thought life was getting back to normal after Covid.


----------



## Happy Paws2

BBC have taken the BBC World Service off the air.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> And awful photos - one of someone covered with a blanket/sheet (presumably killed) with a suitcase one side of her, and the other side a cat carrier. And soldiers tending to another - dying or already dead; who knows. And just as we thought life was getting back to normal after Covid.


That's just awful.  I wonder why Putin decided to invade now,

I,m guessing the Doomsday clock is very close to midnight.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> BBC have taken the BBC World Service off the air.


Do you know why?


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Do you know why?


Sorry read it wrong, it's just in Russia to protect their reports.


----------



## DogLover1981

Maurey said:


> Next round of peace talks has been organized for tomorrow. Really hope this madness ends.


Technically, there shouldn't be any peace talks at all. They literally just invaded another country and need to get *out*. Judging from what I've seen regarding the culture there, nothing beside that is going to be accepted or restore peace.


----------



## MollySmith

Meanwhile the Home Office do five fifths of eff all. This is awful - or great if you're called Putin.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60640460


----------



## OrientalSlave

teddylion said:


> His sanctions comments are worrying in the extreme.
> 
> Being ex-KGB, I expect Putin knows exactly how someone get him and how to avoid it, hence those ridiculously long tables. Imagine his paranoia.
> 
> That's interesting about the only way to stop him is by cutting off the fuel supplies, but I'm confused because wouldn't he take this as an act of aggression and declare war on the west anyway?


Think the long table is about discomforting the person at the other end, and avoiding COVID.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> Meanwhile the Home Office do five fifths of eff all. This is awful - or great if you're called Putin.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60640460


Oh our ever so generous British government  We really are leading the world in humanitarian efforts!!! :Angelic


----------



## Happy Paws2

bmr10 said:


> Oh our ever so generous British government  We really are leading the world in humanitarian efforts!!! :Angelic


:Woot


----------



## kimthecat

I mentioned the programme Warships at sea earlier . Now it all makes sense .

They had to track a Russian submarine up near the North pole because it was thought the submarine would cut out communication cables . A Russian warship which tracks nuclear submarines came onto our waters though to be on its way to where our nuclear submarines are. They followed her and our jet planes flew over , she turned back but it looked they were lowering something over the side that could interfere with communications. 
The Russians have also flown their jets down the channel several times in the past few years checking our defences. 

I keep thinking about my grandparents who lived through two world wars and my parents who lived through one and how they must felt watching world events playing out in front of them and hoping and praying it wouldn't lead to war and the fear and dismay they must have felt when it escalated. 

It feels like we are at a stage where we are hoping and praying and we just have to hope that Putin will not go far enough to cause a nuclear war.


----------



## Siskin

kimthecat said:


> I mentioned the programme Warships at sea earlier . Now it all makes sense .
> 
> They had to track a Russian submarine up near the North pole because it was thought the submarine would cut out communication cables . A Russian warship which tracks nuclear submarines came onto our waters though to be on its way to where our nuclear submarines are. They followed her and our jet planes flew over , she turned back but it looked they were lowering something over the side that could interfere with communications.
> The Russians have also flown their jets down the channel several times in the past few years checking our defences.
> 
> I keep thinking about my grandparents who lived through two world wars and my parents who lived through one and how they must felt watching world events playing out in front of them and hoping and praying it wouldn't lead to war and the fear and dismay they must have felt when it escalated.
> 
> It feels like we are at a stage where we are hoping and praying and we just have to hope that Putin will not go far enough to cause a nuclear war.


We watched that program too. My thoughts were that the Russians seemed to be more active then they used to be


----------



## kimthecat

Siskin said:


> We watched that program too. My thoughts were that the Russians seemed to be more active then they used to be


They must have been planning this for sometime. I wonder if they checked out other countries or just us ?


----------



## Siskin

kimthecat said:


> They must have been planning this for sometime. I wonder if they checked out other countries or just us ?


Probably, especially Finland I suspect


----------



## cheekyscrip

BoJo should know that taking Putin’s money is just as bad as taking money from Hitler was.
Or even staying neutral will not do.
Switzerland upped the sanctions.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> my parents who lived through one


 I think this too. My lovely neighbour was a schoolboy in WW2.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I think this too. My lovely neighbour was a schoolboy in WW2.


I was one of the first war babies, born a few hours after war was declared. I can remember quite distinctly the gliders going over our house on their way to Normandy and finding tinfoil scattered all over my grandfather's fields. And my mother insisting she go back home to collect our dog after an unexploded bomb landed on our road and we were all evacuated.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Jesthar

Looks like Putin is now trying to play the hostage game as well. Of the six evacuation routes from four cities newly offered by Russia, four of them only go to Russia (one via Belarus).

Mariupol and Sumy also have an alternative route through Ukraine, but Kyiv and Kharkiv only have a Russian destination option.

Pretty sure we can count on Putin to break any promise that refugees would then be allowed to travel on...


----------



## Beth78

I've been avoiding the news recently because it makes me feel so sad and very angry. My Dad had BBC news on this morning and its so horrific what these poor people are going through.
It does also worry me alot that this is the beginning of world war 3.
My grandad fought in world war 2 and he never got over the traumas he went through, it's horrible that it's all happening again.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Beth78 said:


> I've been avoiding the news recently because it makes me feel so sad and very angry. My Dad had BBC news on this morning and its so horrific what these poor people are going through.
> *It does also worry me alot that this is the beginning of world war 3.*
> My grandad fought in world war 2 and he never got over the traumas he went through, it's horrible that it's all happening again.


Unfortunately I think you might be right.


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws2 said:


> Unfortunately I think you might be right.


Tensions are really high as well, that all it would take is a stray missile or plane to go into Poland, Hungary or Romania and that could be the escalation point that will be in the history books


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> Tensions are really high as well, that all it would take is a stray missile or plane to go into Poland, Hungary or Romania and that could be the escalation point that will be in the history books


I live 81 miles from the Hungarian Ukrainian border, 235 miles from Lviv and 733 miles from Odessa.










I stand to be corrected but I believe the latest Russian missile can travel up to 1000 kms (625 miles). In theory that means if one was fired from Lviv in the direction of Hungary it would most likely miss my home and would end up the other side of the country to me which I suppose is some sort of consolation.

I don't know whether you've read this article in Forbes where Russian missile have been moved to the Baltic States which I find more worrying.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebast...ic-in-range-of-nato-capitols/?sh=197922d4217e

*Russia Deploys Hypersonic Missile To Baltic In Range Of NATO Capitals*


----------



## kimthecat

Beth78 said:


> I've been avoiding the news recently because it makes me feel so sad and very angry. My Dad had BBC news on this morning and its so horrific what these poor people are going through.
> It does also worry me alot that this is the beginning of world war 3.
> My grandad fought in world war 2 and he never got over the traumas he went through, it's horrible that it's all happening again.


I must admit to not watching the news as much. I feel guilty cos I watch the headlines and then turn over. It feels like Im ignoring their suffering .


----------



## Jesthar

stuaz said:


> Tensions are really high as well, that all it would take is a stray missile or plane to go into Poland, Hungary or Romania and that could be the escalation point that will be in the history books


I don't think the Western allies would act to aggravate unnecessarily, all those countries know what a nutcase Putin is.

If Putin wants things to escalate, I'd suspect something more akin to a false flag operation of the kind that Hitler used as his excuse to enter Poland - manufacture an 'incident' as a pretext for retaliation. He's KGB, that kind of thing is right up his alley.

Incidentally, Putin and his cronies keep going on about all this would stop instantly (yeah, right! ) if Ukraine and the west accept his demands of each of them - has he actually said what they are?


----------



## Happy Paws2

None of us are safe...

New START limits all Russian deployed intercontinental-range nuclear weapons, including every Russian nuclear warhead that is loaded onto an intercontinental-range ballistic missile that can reach the United States in approximately *30 minutes*.


----------



## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


> I live 81 miles from the Hungarian Ukrainian border, 235 miles from Lviv and 733 miles from Odessa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I stand to be corrected but I believe the latest Russian missile can travel up to 1000 kms (625 miles). In theory that means if one was fired from Lviv in the direction of Hungary it would most likely miss my home and would end up the other side of the country to me which I suppose is some sort of consolation.
> 
> I don't know whether you've read this article in Forbes where Russian missile have been moved to the Baltic States which I find more worrying.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebast...ic-in-range-of-nato-capitols/?sh=197922d4217e
> 
> *Russia Deploys Hypersonic Missile To Baltic In Range Of NATO Capitals*


I'm not fully aware of Russias military capability, I was merely referring to some of the neighbouring countries and they were the first to come to mind.

I could quite easily see putin move towards the Moldova area of Transnistria though under the false flag guise like @Jesthar says.


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws2 said:


> None of us are safe...
> 
> New START limits all Russian deployed intercontinental-range nuclear weapons, including every Russian nuclear warhead that is loaded onto an intercontinental-range ballistic missile that can reach the United States in approximately *30 minutes*.


Although based on some of there equipment I do wonder if they have overestimated there Nuclear capabilities, although I also don't ever want to find out ether!


----------



## kimthecat

@Jesthar I wonder if this results in a war in Europe, how the other countries such as China will react?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Most countries are taking refugees without any paper work.

UK.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60652914

But we are offering ready salted crisps, Kit-Kats and water at Calais.


----------



## white_shadow

.
More and more detailed boycott info from BBC Business just now: *McDonalds and Coca-Cola boycott calls grow...*

.


----------



## Jesthar

The Queen has made her position known in her inimitable manner with a large display of blue and yellow flowers for her meeting with Justin Trudeau:










Royal sources indicate it would not have been an accidental choice. What a lady!


----------



## white_shadow

.
.....and, she expressed her position in a very practical manner as well

*"Many thanks to Her Majesty The Queen for continuing to support the Disasters Emergency Committee
and for making a generous donation to the DEC Ukraine Humanitarian Appeal."*
*here* and there​.


----------



## Magyarmum

white_shadow said:


> .
> More and more detailed boycott info from BBC Business just now: *McDonalds and Coca-Cola boycott calls grow...*
> .


----------



## Maurey

Magyarmum said:


>


I don't see the benefit of these companies boycotting, in terms of Putin backing down. Many, perhaps even most of these only affect the innocent population of the country. Which he doesn't give a shit about, as evidenced by the fact that an increasing amount of minors are being arrested for peaceful protest, and, as of yesterday, we have evidence that people that have been arrested for peaceful protest that refuse to give their personal information, as per the constitution, get beat up by the police.


----------



## Calvine

white_shadow said:


> .
> More and more detailed boycott info from BBC Business just now: *McDonalds and Coca-Cola boycott calls grow...*
> 
> .


I'm sure when there was conflict between Russia and Ukraine back in ?2014?, Putin closed several McDonalds in retaliation against US and pretended it was because of public health problems?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Maurey said:


> I don't see the benefit of these companies boycotting, in terms of Putin backing down. Many, perhaps even most of these only affect the innocent population of the country. Which he doesn't give a shit about, as evidenced by the fact that an increasing amount of minors are being arrested for peaceful protest, and, as of yesterday, we have evidence that people that have been arrested for peaceful protest that refuse to give their personal information, as per the constitution, get beat up by the police.


Sorry I don't have any sympathy for the Russian people anymore that they may have to do with out these things, they only have Putin to blame.

it isn't the Ordinary People of Ukraine's fault they are been bombed and have to run for their lives either that's what you call hardship, not doing without the latest smart phone or car.

Sorry after watching the news this morning, I'm not in a the mood to feel sorry for the Russian's.


----------



## rona

white_shadow said:


> .
> More and more detailed boycott info from BBC Business just now: *McDonalds and Coca-Cola boycott calls grow...*
> 
> .


Some of those companies need to stay open to assist with communication for the Russian people

Also, hasn't Shell (who is probably buying oil at a Russian loss) offered to pay all profits to Ukraine?


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> Sorry after watching the news this morning


It is truly awful. I'm with @kimthecat: I can't turn the news on at all as seeing it ''live'' makes it too unbearable. I look online, that way you can sort of pick which bits you want to look at.



Maurey said:


> Many, perhaps even most of these only affect the innocent population of the country


I can see your point absolutely, and have seen pictures of people in Russia queuing round the block to get money out of a cash machine and being carted off if they dare to protest about the Ukraine invasion. But at the same time, I can also see though that no right-thinking country can be seen to ''do business' with Russia as though there was nothing going on; and what is the alternative without escalating the situation? I can see though that Ukraine thinks nothing is being done to help them.


----------



## Happy Paws2

How on earth did our governments ever get so reliant on Russia for gas and oil, we have know for decades they can't be trusted.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Happy Paws2 said:


> Sorry after watching the news this morning, I'm not in a the mood to feel sorry for the Russian's.


Regardless of the impact businesses boycotting trading in Russia has on the Russian population, there is no forgivable reason to mar a country of over 100 million people based upon the actions of a very elite few. Innocent Russians living lives like you and I have no control or influence over what their government do. Russian government has shown time and time again that they will prosecute and silence people who speak out against their actions or "disrespect" the country in any way. They actively suppress criticism. In a situation like that what are the Russian people meant to do?

These people have had to deal with decades of post-Cold War discrimination and have been forced into another war against their will. They are living in a country that is at risk of becoming the epicentre of WW3. I do not think the average Russian civilian wishes to have their country become a war zone. Nor do I think the average Russian civilian wishes for Ukraine to become a war zone.

I do not think it is wise to throw a whole country to the dogs due to actions that they have taken no part in and have no way of stopping. I feel incredibly sorry for _anyone_ who lives in a country where true democracy doesn't exist. I feel sorry for _anyone_ who's government joins a war.


----------



## Happy Paws2

bmr10 said:


> Regardless of the impact businesses boycotting trading in Russia has on the Russian population, there is no forgivable reason to mar a country of over 100 million people based upon the actions of a very elite few. Innocent Russians living lives like you and I have no control or influence over what their government do. Russian government has shown time and time again that they will prosecute and silence people who speak out against their actions or "disrespect" the country in any way. They actively suppress criticism. In a situation like that what are the Russian people meant to do?
> 
> These people have had to deal with decades of post-Cold War discrimination and have been forced into another war against their will. They are living in a country that is at risk of becoming the epicentre of WW3. I do not think the average Russian civilian wishes to have their country become a war zone. Nor do I think the average Russian civilian wishes for Ukraine to become a war zone.
> 
> I do not think it is wise to throw a whole country to the dogs due to actions that they have taken no part in and have no way of stopping. I feel incredibly sorry for _anyone_ who lives in a country where true democracy doesn't exist. I feel sorry for _anyone_ who's government joins a war.


I know some of the Russian people have a rough life and it's a country I would hate to live in and I know this war is not in their name, but if boycotting and sanctions is the only way to get a reaction from Putin then that's what has to be done.

I don't think the Ukraine people wanted their country to be a war zone either!


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> Sorry I don't have any sympathy for the Russian people anymore that they may have to do with out these things, they only have Putin to blame.
> 
> it isn't the Ordinary People of Ukraine's fault they are been bombed and have to run for their lives either that's what you call hardship, not doing without the latest smart phone or car.
> 
> Sorry after watching the news this morning, I'm not in a the mood to feel sorry for the Russian's.


You may not be in the mood to feel sorry for ordinary Russians, but you should. THEY are Putin's first victims, and they are trapped in Russia with him. To Putin, ordinary Russians are just pawns to be used in his power games, and if he has to sacrifice some (or even many) he will gladly do so. He has no more regard for them than for Ukranian citizens.

Or have you forgotten that many thousands of them have already been arrested for protesting against the war? How would you feel if you had to live in fear of your own government, that there might be a knock on the door and you and your children (and yes, they have been arresting children) were taken away for something one of you had said?

Besides, if we start to demonise ordinary Russians, or refuse to have compassion for them, then we are actually doing what Putin wants us to do. He is desparate to portray this as an 'us vs them' narrative - why do you think he is devoting more time and effort to blocking any news in Russia that does not conform to the state narrative? He is KGB, he knows better than most the power of fear and manipulation.

So I will always sympathise for ordinary Russians. They didn't ask for any of this, and most of them don't want it any more than we do. And besides, that way I get to beat Putin, just a little bit, as he only truly beats us if he gets us to hate.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> You should may not be in the mood to feel sorry for ordinary Russians, but you should. THEY are Putin's first victims, and they are trapped in Russia with him. To Putin, ordinary Russians are just pawns to be used in his power games, and if he has to sacrifice some (or even many) he will gladly do so. He has no more regard for them than for Ukranian citizens.
> 
> Or have you forgotten that many thousands of them have already been arrested for protesting against the war? How would you feel if you had to live in fear of your own government, that there might be a knock on the door and you and your children (and yes, they have been arresting children) were taken away for something one of you had said?
> 
> Besides, if we start to demonise ordinary Russians, or refuse to have compassion for them, then we are actually doing what Putin wants us to do. He is desparate to portray this as an 'us vs them' narrative - why do you think he is devoting more time and effort to blocking any news in Russia that does not conform to the state narrative? He is KGB, he knows better than most the power of fear and manipulation.
> 
> So I will always sympathise for ordinary Russians. They didn't ask for any of this, and most of them don't want it any more than we do. And besides, that way I get to beat Putin, just a little bit, as he only truly beats us if he gets us to hate.


Sorry at this moment in time I can only feel sorry for the Ukraine people the Russian's aren't running for their life from bombs. I'll feel sorry for them again when Putin has stopped his bombing innocent people.


----------



## Happy Paws2

*Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky will address British MPs on Tuesday via video link, the Speaker of the House of Commons has announced.*

Sir Lindsay Hoyle said he was pleased to grant Mr Zelensky's "historic" request, with the address taking place at 17:00 GMT.

I'll be watching, I wonder how BJ will answer him.


----------



## MollySmith

The trouble with demonising brands and cutting Russia off is that it’s holding businesses to account and victimising people who may have had no choice. I get unethical business (though still frankly appalled that it takes a war for people to boycott some brands which are screwing up something way more closer to home - the planet we live on for decades and have been abusing human rights for longer!) 

But how far does one penalise an entire country the size of Russia when they live under such strict rules. Bearing in mind also that the National Policing Bill that the Boris wants law could potentially make it also illegal to protest in this country. Thankfully the House of Lords might prevent it.

At some point we have to look at our own country and the funding of our politics. Our parties are voted in and as it’s become clear, there’s a lot of Russian money in the Tory party. They were voted in, they could be again. Luckily we are not under a dictatorship but politics is so mucky, we’re not so innocent and goodness knows we are often equally powerless. I’m not terrible comfortable either though many of those brands were not in my home already for other reasons.

I understand why but I feel uncomfortable about it.


----------



## Jesthar

Maurey said:


> I don't see the benefit of these companies boycotting, in terms of Putin backing down. Many, perhaps even most of these only affect the innocent population of the country. Which he doesn't give a shit about, as evidenced by the fact that an increasing amount of minors are being arrested for peaceful protest, and, as of yesterday, we have evidence that people that have been arrested for peaceful protest that refuse to give their personal information, as per the constitution, get beat up by the police.


I'll be honest, it's a difficult one, Maurey. For most it is an ethical consideration - they don't wish to receive money from a country whose leader has invaded their neighbour on a pretext, or help process that money. They also don't want to generate any taxes that will help fund the war. For the broadcasters, they also don't want to have to carry the state propaganda channels that Russian laws now dictate they must if they have over 100,000 subscribers.

There will be wider implications from this, though - quite a lot in the technology arena, for example (I'm an IT specialist). A person in the street not being able to buy a new laptop is one thing. A government agency not being able to get equipment/spares/upgrades for their server farm is quite another. And most of the big IT infrastructure suppliers are on that list.

There may be one good thing for the planet to come out of this, it's hopefully going to accelerate a shift to energy independence, which hopefully means more green energy and less fossil fuel


----------



## SbanR

Happy Paws2 said:


> *Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky will address British MPs on Tuesday via video link, the Speaker of the House of Commons has announced.*
> 
> Sir Lindsay Hoyle said he was pleased to grant Mr Zelensky's "historic" request, with the address taking place at 17:00 GMT.
> 
> I'll be watching, I wonder how BJ will answer him.


That gives Putin a precise location and time for a missile strike


----------



## Happy Paws2

SbanR said:


> That gives Putin a precise location and time for a missile strike


I think even Putin would be that stupid to do that while he was on air to the world. It would be WW111


----------



## Jesthar

SbanR said:


> That gives Putin a precise location and time for a missile strike


Unless he knows the exact location Zelensky will be broadcasting from, then not really. There are also plenty of ways of disguising where a signal originates from. Zelensky has already spoken at pre-planned times to several other governments and organisations too without interruption, so it should be OK.

Unless Putin plans to strike the Houses of Parliament instead, of course


----------



## StormyThai

Calvine said:


> I'm sure when there was conflict between Russia and Ukraine back in ?2014?


Mass protests erupted in November 2013 when Yanukovych announced that he would not proceed with long-anticipated association and trade agreements with the EU. After meeting with Russian Pres. Putin on November 9, Yanukovych instead moved to further expand ties with Russia.

In January 2014 two protesters are shot and killed by riot police in Kiev. The body of a third protester is found in the woods outside the city and then in Feb government snipers open fire on protesters killing hundreds which leads on to Putin grants parliamentary approval to use military force to protect Russian interests in Ukraine.

Netflix has a really good film laying out everything that happened called Winter on Fire Ukraine's fight for freedom, I found it quite eye opening in many places.


----------



## Magyarmum

*Ukraine UA *
14 m ·

The evacuation from Sumy region and Irpin is underway. Those who stayed in the cities are being provided with humanitarian aid.
The Russian occupiers still did not let people out of the Mariupol and launched an attack in the direction of the humanitarian corridor.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Heart breaking


----------



## Magyarmum

StormyThai said:


> Mass protests erupted in November 2013 when Yanukovych announced that he would not proceed with long-anticipated association and trade agreements with the EU. After meeting with Russian Pres. Putin on November 9, Yanukovych instead moved to further expand ties with Russia.
> 
> In January 2014 two protesters are shot and killed by riot police in Kiev. The body of a third protester is found in the woods outside the city and then in Feb government snipers open fire on protesters killing hundreds which leads on to Putin grants parliamentary approval to use military force to protect Russian interests in Ukraine.
> 
> Netflix has a really good film laying out everything that happened called Winter on Fire Ukraine's fight for freedom, I found it quite eye opening in many places.


Before that there was the dispute with Ukraine over the non payment of the gas bill which resulted in a reduced amount being piped to Hungary and other countries.along the line.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/02/russia.ukraine

*Russia turns off supplies to Ukraine in payment row, and EU feels the chill*


----------



## HarlequinCat

A few years ago, Georgia were being treated the same. Separatist regions came under Russian rule and Georgia had to back down because they didn't have the same support that Ukraine are having from the world at the moment. They could not withstand Russia. At the time USA were putting all their attention and resources in the Middle East. 

I have a feeling that once Putin has gotten what he wants he'll move on to Moldova and again target the Russian sympathising areas, saying they should be under Russian rule and take that. It seems to be his modus operandi if you look at Crimea etc.


----------



## SusieRainbow

Happy Paws2 said:


> Sorry I don't have any sympathy for the Russian people anymore that they may have to do with out these things, they only have Putin to blame.
> 
> it isn't the Ordinary People of Ukraine's fault they are been bombed and have to run for their lives either that's what you call hardship, not doing without the latest smart phone or car.
> 
> Sorry after watching the news this morning, I'm not in a the mood to feel sorry for the Russian's.





Happy Paws2 said:


> Sorry after watching the news this morning, *I'm not in a the mood to feel sorry for the Russian's.*


it's already been said , but there are a huge number of Russian nationals who are completely against this war and we need to feel some compassion for them.


----------



## Magyarmum

HarlequinCat said:


> A few years ago, Georgia were being treated the same. Separatist regions came under Russian rule and Georgia had to back down because they didn't have the same support that Ukraine are having from the world at the moment. They could not withstand Russia. At the time USA were putting all their attention and resources in the Middle East.
> 
> I have a feeling that once Putin has gotten what he wants he'll move on to Moldova and again target the Russian sympathising areas, saying they should be under Russian rule and take that. It seems to be his modus operandi if you look at Crimea etc.


I agree with you about Moldova. It only has a population of 2.5 million and a tiny military force of I believe no more 7500 personnel. No way could they defend themselves from a Russian invasion.


----------



## CollieSlave

I see that the loathsome Donald Trump has come up with an interesting suggestion: he, apparently, suggested that the US should fit US jet fighters with Chinese flags and use them to (here I quote him) "bomb the shit out of the Russians". Now that would certainly stir things up a bit. Was he being serious? Who can say? Quite possibly ...


----------



## O2.0

MollySmith said:


> (though still frankly appalled that it takes a war for people to boycott some brands


No, not accurate. 
It takes a war against certain people. 
No one cared when it was Syria being bombed by Russian missiles.

So no, it's not a war that made people care. It's proximity, it's "our" people this time, it's.... who knows. 
At least people are paying attention enough to boycott. Not that boycotting does much but it makes the boycotter feel better I guess.

This opinion piece from CNN resonated with me. 
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/07/opinions/europe-refugee-response-ukrainians-syrians-damon/index.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

HarlequinCat said:


> A few years ago, Georgia were being treated the same. Separatist regions came under Russian rule and Georgia had to back down because they didn't have the same support that Ukraine are having from the world at the moment. They could not withstand Russia. At the time USA were putting all their attention and resources in the Middle East.
> 
> I have a feeling that once Putin has gotten what he wants he'll move on to Moldova and again target the Russian sympathising areas, saying they should be under Russian rule and take that. It seems to be his modus operandi if you look at Crimea etc.


Moldova, Baltic States…
He has to be stopped right now, Ukraine can't hold forever.
My friends in Poland have homes full of desperate, exhausted people.
If this invasion is allowed to continue we all fail, not just Ukraine.
Russian people never wanted this war either.
Putin is a madman. He fuelled conflicts in Donetsk

The way to solve the problem like Donetsk is honest, peaceful referendum not war…


----------



## Jesthar

CollieSlave said:


> I see that the loathsome Donald Trump has come up with an interesting suggestion: he, apparently, suggested that the US should fit US jet fighters with Chinese flags and use them to (here I quote him) "bomb the shit out of the Russians". Now that would certainly stir things up a bit. Was he being serious? Who can say? Quite possibly ...


Oh, glory - who let him near a microphone whilst off his meds?!?

Pretty sure the Russians can tell the difference between US and Chinese aircraft, even without IFF...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> Oh, glory - who let him near a microphone whilst off his meds?!?
> 
> Pretty sure the Russians can tell the difference between US and Chinese aircraft, even without IFF...


That will be very amusing for China…
Dress up party anyone?
But roll on two years and Trump might be back…


----------



## Oof

Has anyone heard the rumour that putin has cancer and this war is his last attempt at trying to do god knows what?


----------



## mrs phas

Oof said:


> Has anyone heard the rumour that putin has cancer and this war is his last attempt at trying to do god knows what?


Yes I read this today too 
Allegedly bowel cancer

If true I wish him a very short and extremely painful death 
However 
I wouldn't believe anything in the red tops, not even if they told me Sunday came before monday
And 
Russian intelligence isn't going to verify anything that makes their esteemed leader look weak 
Unless they want to visit a gulag as an inmate


----------



## Happy Paws2

mrs phas said:


> Yes I read this today too
> Allegedly bowel cancer
> 
> If true I wish him a very short and extremely painful death


If that is true hope he dies soon rather than later and in a lot of pain,


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> How on earth did our governments ever get so reliant on Russia for gas and oil, we have know for decades they can't be trusted.


Same for the EU though I believe we are less reliant than others. We get less than 5 pc , nit the price is affected by markets

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/russia-ukraine.543643/page-16#post-1065865246

*How is Russia's invasion pushing up UK gas prices?*
EU countries get about 40% of their gas directly from Russia. The UK gets less than 5% of its gas from Russia but its gas prices are affected by fluctuations in the global markets.

While Russian oil and gas exports aren't directly affected by Western sanctions, the prospect of further action by the US and EU is hitting Russian trade and pushing up gas prices globally.


----------



## kimthecat

Oof said:


> Has anyone heard the rumour that putin has cancer and this war is his last attempt at trying to do god knows what?


He is 69 . I dont know if he has cancer but it was mentioned that he wanted to re - unite the USSR so to speak , as it would be his legacy and for what he would be remembered by in history.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I know some of the Russian people have a rough life and it's a country I would hate to live in and I know this war is not in their name, but if boycotting and sanctions is the only way to get a reaction from Putin then that's what has to be done.
> !


I assume one reason for boycotts is that if things get bad enough there would be an uprising by the people and maybe the soldiers too.


----------



## £54etgfb6

kimthecat said:


> I assume one reason for boycotts is that if things get bad enough there would be an uprising by the people and maybe the soldiers too.


Aside from the barriers preventing people from protesting (and ignoring the fact that many Russians have protested to no avail) we cannot cut off a country in an attempt to force the population to overthrow their government and I would be shocked/saddened if that's what governments around the world were hoping for. That would be an intentional creation of a dystopian, lawless, environment. We cannot expect the Russian people to sacrifice their lives in a futile attempt to overthrow a heavily militarised, secretive, authoritarian government. The prospect that this would follow through is idealistic at best. I'm sure some people _are_ expecting this but I don't think this is a logical plan.

I want to add that the Russian public going without H&M clothing (for example) really is not a big deal in my opinion (though I feel the boycott of tech/engineering companies is) but what it does, if it lasts long enough, is create a scenario that Putin can capitalise off of. The Russian gov wants things to be made in Russia and for its public to consume Russian-manufactured products, whilst limiting influence from the West. This is similar to China and North Korea, the latter being an extreme example of where this can lead. This would cut off western influence within the country and encourage anti-west sentiment, which is evidently what Putin would like. Not wanting to support the Russian economic market makes sense on paper, but I feel that it is a risky path to take.


----------



## MollySmith

O2.0 said:


> No, not accurate.
> It takes a war against certain people.
> No one cared when it was Syria being bombed by Russian missiles.
> 
> So no, it's not a war that made people care. It's proximity, it's "our" people this time, it's.... who knows.
> At least people are paying attention enough to boycott. Not that boycotting does much but it makes the boycotter feel better I guess.
> 
> This opinion piece from CNN resonated with me.
> https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/07/opinions/europe-refugee-response-ukrainians-syrians-damon/index.html


Yes, and no, depending on in individuals views. I don't know if boycotting plays to the gallery so to speak as brands are more accountable on social media, and yes because it's closer to home. Even if the planet is 'close.' too. And it depends on how people value the ethics and effects on unknown hidden stories.

I guess that's my beef. It's fine to boycott but brands hide bigger, dirty secrets elsewhere and stand with Ukraine isn't salvation enough for many. But yes, get your point.


----------



## Happy Paws2

McDonald's and Coke-Cola have pulled out at last, so I can have a Coke without feeling guilty.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Sima Kotecha had just tweeted this picture of Vera with her cat Galacia, they've just crossed the border to safety. Her mum is now in the processing queue and her dad has stayed to fight.

The fact that this young woman is still able to even half smile astounds me.










I'm stepping away from the news and stuff for a bit, I'm feeling panicked and overwhelmed at my inability to do anything at all to help except give money.


----------



## Happy Paws2

It amazing how these kids seem to bounce back once they have had some sleep, food, a drink and settled into a centre.


----------



## Magyarmum

If anyone's interested I follow the official Ukrainian government FB page You can find it under Ukraine UA.

Tragic! My heart goes out to this poor man.

After a devastating Russian strike on his hometown Markhalivka in Kyiv region, a man lost his wife, daughter, two sons-in-law, and his mother-in-law. The house was destroyed. He managed to find his beloved cat Marsik in the rubble.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> If anyone's interested I follow the official Ukrainian government FB page You can find it under Ukraine UA.
> 
> Tragic! My heart goes out to this poor man.
> 
> After a devastating Russian strike on his hometown Markhalivka in Kyiv region, a man lost his wife, daughter, two sons-in-law, and his mother-in-law. The house was destroyed. He managed to find his beloved cat Marsik in the rubble.


In tears again, the poor man.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Ukraine family in Poland went to get a visa for the UK and were told to come back on the 22nd of March.:Woot


----------



## Jesthar

Surprise, surprise, Russia have finally admitted using conscripts in Ukraine - accidentally, of course!


----------



## Magyarmum

Worrying news!

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/09/1085...06Ei3ui1ga9ZsC1WzX_YTaSgbpplRk5eFCvDY5h30HmB4

*Ukraine says the Chernobyl nuclear site has lost power*


----------



## kimthecat

What is the EU actually doing to stop Putin and helping refugees. Is it up to each individual country to decide about ?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> What is the EU actually doing to stop Putin and helping refugees. Is it up to each individual country to decide about ?


No EU country or indeed any non EU country can do anything to stop Putin other than impose sanctions, all EU countries including Ireland are accepting refugees.


----------



## kimthecat

3dogs2cats said:


> No EU country or indeed any non EU country can do anything to stop Putin other than impose sanctions, all EU countries including Ireland are accepting refugees.


Yes , sorry I meant sanctions . So the EU itself cant do much , not even impose sanctions collectively because not all members would agree.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Yes , sorry I meant sanctions . So the EU itself cant do much , not even impose sanctions collectively because not all members would agree.


The EU has imposed sanctions on both Russia and Belarus, they continue to add to them as do the UK and USA but unfortunately sanctions are not going to stop Putin

Here is a list of sanctions and who has imposed them so far.

Russia sanctions list: What the west imposed over the Ukraine invasion | Financial Times (ft.com)

Oh damn sorry don`t know why that has come up as a paywall as I don`t subscribe to the FT and I could read it!


----------



## kimthecat

3dogs2cats said:


> The EU has imposed sanctions on both Russia and Belarus, they continue to add to them as do the UK and USA but unfortunately sanctions are not going to stop Putin
> 
> Here is a list of sanctions and who has imposed them so far.
> 
> Russia sanctions list: What the west imposed over the Ukraine invasion | Financial Times (ft.com)
> 
> Oh damn sorry don`t know why that has come up as a paywall as I don`t subscribe to the FT and I could read it!


Oh dont worry about the link.
i suppose the West has to be seen to be doing something. All the countries need to stick together and sing from the same hymn sheet.
I just hope China doesn't help Putin too much.

ETA I got the paywall from your link . So I googled and came up with the link and I can read it . perhaps you can only see it once.

Its a long article !

This is just the EU . 
EU EU-based companies are banned from exporting technology to Russian weapons maker JSC Kalashnikov, among others, as well as pharmaceutical companies, military communications units and shipyards. 
EU companies are banned from doing business with the following state-owned companies: arms maker Almaz-Antey, truckmaker Kamaz, Novorossiysk Commercial Sea Port, Rostec, Russian Railways, nuclear submarine maker Sevmash, hydrocarbons shipping company Sovcomflot, United Shipbuilding Corporation and gas industry insurance company Sogaz. Internet Research Agency - a Kremlin-backed company that is behind Ukraine disinformation campaigns and financed by Yevgeny Prigozhin, is also banned by the EU and Switzerland.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Villages are being destroyed and people killed. Children in surrounded towns now dying of hunger.
We are discussing if to close the air space.
If we don’t it is a death sentence for many thousands.

China is very much behind the scenes of this war… waiting for Europe to collapse…


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Villages are being destroyed and people killed. Children in surrounded towns now dying of hunger.
> We are discussing if to close the air space.
> If we don't it is a death sentence for many thousands.
> 
> China is very much behind the scenes of this war… waiting for Europe to collapse…


That is tragic. 
Im not sure about China wanting Europe to collapse . They have invested millions in European countries and lent loans. They do a lot of business with us. They are doing the same in Africa.

Ive just found this . Its a PDF .

https://www.bruegel.org/wp-content/...trade-and-investment-in-challenging-times.pdf


----------



## kimthecat

Dominic Dyer was on the radio today pressing for emergency pet passports , I hope the Government listens.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> That is tragic.
> Im not sure about China wanting Europe to collapse . They have invested millions in European countries and lent loans. They do a lot of business with us. They are doing the same in Africa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ive just found this . Its a PDF .
> 
> https://www.bruegel.org/wp-content/...trade-and-investment-in-challenging-times.pdf


----------



## cheekyscrip

On 4th February Russia and China pledged friendship no matter what.
China happily blame NATO for this war…
They are the winners. Brexit, COVID and now this devastating war to weaken EU and USA… 
I think Putin was outsmarted.
The only one who benefits from this war is China.
Funny that they already bought supplies of wheat … obviously Ukraine will not produce much this year…


----------



## Calvine

Oof said:


> Has anyone heard the rumour that putin has cancer and this war is his last attempt at trying to do god knows what?


 No; but I have thought for quite some time that his face is suddenly unusually fat and rather bloated in appearance (considering he's not a fat guy). I did wonder if it was the effect of certain drugs (though I had not thought of cancer).


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> Sorry I don't have any sympathy for the Russian people anymore


 Well thousands of Russians are protesting, and, predictably, they are being carted off in droves; God knows where to.


----------



## Boxer123

Calvine said:


> Well thousands of Russians are protesting, and, predictably, they are being carted off in droves; God knows where to.


Exactly this isn't what they want. They face 15 years in prison for protesting.


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> Well thousands of Russians are protesting, and, predictably, they are being carted off in droves; God knows where to.


Very brave .................or stupid


----------



## JANICE199

rona said:


> Very brave .................or stupid


*If nobody is prepared to take a stand, where does that leave the world? The " people " of the world are the strongest voice.*


----------



## £54etgfb6

JANICE199 said:


> *If nobody is prepared to take a stand, where does that leave the world? The " people " of the world are the strongest voice.*


The people of the world are the greatest voice and the general public _do_ have more power than those at the top but unfortunately for the people to win it usually takes a herculean, collaborative effort. Most people fear authority and persecution, and many people are even afraid to speak up in times of injustice. Combine this with the fact that the Russian government has put up so many legal barriers and used so many fear/suppression tactics and you get an environment where the vast majority of people are too terrified to speak out or have simply become resigned to their lack of power. This is why the people of Russia, and any country where injustice takes place, need the rest of the world to act. I would say these protestors are admirable, brave, selfless, and incredibly strong-willed people.


----------



## Pawscrossed

19 days after the invasion began this government offers up a scheme so shambolic it’s embarrassing. Ukrainian people with a passport and online access can apply to UK and biometric data agreed later. I suppose this is what we voted for with Brexit and this scheme pays the sort of lip service that Putin wants. We are making it so obstructive and so dammed late it’s terrible, it doesn’t even start until Tuesday. This government has to go.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Worse they are blaming the cost of living crisis on Russian invasion of Ukraine. Blame shifting again. First Covid and now Ukraine. Never Brexit. Never them.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Pawscrossed said:


> 19 days after the invasion began this government offers up a scheme so shambolic it's embarrassing. Ukrainian people with a passport and online access can apply to UK and biometric data agreed later. I suppose this is what we voted for with Brexit and this scheme pays the sort of lip service that Putin wants. We are making it so obstructive and so dammed late it's terrible, it doesn't even start until Tuesday. This government has to go.


Don't forget it's only for Ukranians who already have family living in the UK! So if your family were not financially well off enough to emigrate (and the majority of people around the world... aren't???) or never had a desire to move to the UK then you're scuppered!

And why has it taken so long when the invasion was predicted far before it occurred?

And why do the British government continue to dislike anyone who was not born here? Do they fail to understand that the human species is nomadic, particularly in times of crisis? These refugees aren't choosing a location to go on holiday to.

The notion that you must have certain privileges in order to escape a warzone doesn't sit well with me. In my opinion, the countries of the world should be sharing refugees within their own individual means, not cherry-picking them.


----------



## Jesthar

bmr10 said:


> Don't forget it's only for Ukranians who already have family living in the UK! So if your family were not financially well off enough to emigrate (and the majority of people around the world... aren't???) or never had a desire to move to the UK then you're scuppered!
> 
> And why has it taken so long when the invasion was predicted far before it occurred?
> 
> And why do the British government continue to dislike anyone who was not born here? Do they fail to understand that the human species is nomadic, particularly in times of crisis? These refugees aren't choosing a location to go on holiday to.
> 
> The notion that you must have certain privileges in order to escape a warzone doesn't sit well with me. In my opinion, the countries of the world should be sharing refugees within their own individual means, not cherry-picking them.


One must remember that the conservatives have received massive donations from russian backers, and the government has persistantly resisted efforts to have a proper investigation into the level of russian influence in supporting the pro-Brexit campaign.

Would it, therefore, be disingenuous to suggest the russians are still expecting a return on their investments, even if it's not the blind eye they were hoping for? Putin himself said something along the lines of "remember Brexit" in one of his earlier post-invasion rants if memory serves, which I thought was a bit of an odd comment in the circumstances...

ETA Let's not drag this off down the Brext debate route, though!


----------



## Calvine

Boxer123 said:


> They face 15 years in prison for protesting.


Poor sods will likely end up in one of the gulags!


----------



## Calvine

Pawscrossed said:


> Worse they are blaming the cost of living crisis on Russian invasion of Ukraine.


I may be imagined this, but . . . am pretty sure I read quite some time before the recent Russia/Ukraine situation that we could expect gas to go up by a trifling (!!) 54% this year. Surely the business about the enforced loan was mentioned before Russia invaded Ukraine.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I may be imagined this, but . . . am pretty sure I read quite some time before the recent Russia/Ukraine situation that we could expect gas to go up by a trifling (!!) 54% this year. Surely the business about the enforced loan was mentioned before Russia invaded Ukraine.


I thought that.


----------



## Siskin

Certainly gas prices rose during the autumn last year so that the two fertilisers factories in the uk stopped making it, now there is a fertiliser shortage and it needs to be imported at sky high prices. This years harvest should be ok, but unless the price goes down next years harvest could be very poor, so that loaf of bread is going to go up even more


----------



## teddylion

Pawscrossed said:


> Worse they are blaming the cost of living crisis on Russian invasion of Ukraine. Blame shifting again. First Covid and now Ukraine. Never Brexit. Never them.


There is a cost of living crisis all over the world, just ask anyone in NZ for example. The world has been flooded with printed money due to quantitive easing for the pandemic and now here comes the hangover - inflation.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Soon it will be over. West is just standing at the frontier looking at a massacre of Ukraine.
Ukraine needs action now.
Bloody cowards.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Soon it will be over. West is just standing at the frontier looking at a massacre of Ukraine.
> Ukraine needs action now.
> Bloody cowards.


 Heart breaking . 
You know when we have to make life altering decisions in our own lives and you make a decision which you feel is the right one and later you think , I wish I'd chosen the other way . Then when you're older you realise you have choices but there isn't always a right or wrong way and maybe one decision isn't always better than the other.

This is true of Ukraine , there's not a right or wrong answer or choice here . whatever we choose, whatever the outcome , it won't be good for years to come.


----------



## Siskin

I wish this was available to pop him into and lock it up good and tight


----------



## £54etgfb6

kimthecat said:


> This is true of Ukraine , there's not a right or wrong answer or choice here . whatever we choose, whatever the outcome , it won't be good for years to come.


Nobody wins in war, sadly.


----------



## cheekyscrip

bmr10 said:


> Nobody wins in war, sadly.


China does in this one. They are ones who convinced Putin he will restore the Soviet Empire ( with a little help from his friends).
He will not, but Europe will be much worse if it gets through this.

Hitler was not stopped..


----------



## rona

It feels as if Putin is taunting the west by ever more horrific actions..................


----------



## JANICE199

cheekyscrip said:


> China does in this one. They are ones who convinced Putin he will restore the Soviet Empire ( with a little help from his friends).
> He will not, but Europe will be much worse if it gets through this.
> 
> Hitler was not stopped..


*It wouldn't surprise me if Boris had something to do with as well. One minute he's having talks with Putin then this happens. I wouldn't trust him as far as i could throw him. *


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> whatever the outcome , it won't be good for years to come


Indeed not: there won't be any winners. It's a tragedy, the whole thing.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> China does in this one. They are ones who convinced Putin he will restore the Soviet Empire ( with a little help from his friends).
> He will not, but Europe will be much worse if it gets through this.
> 
> Hitler was not stopped..


Well China's not exactly helping his friend Vlad by refusing to supply him with vital aircraft parts!

https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...ly-aircraft-parts-after-sanctions-2022-03-10/

*Russia says China refuses to supply aircraft parts after sanctions*


----------



## rona

JANICE199 said:


> *It wouldn't surprise me if Boris had something to do with as well. One minute he's having talks with Putin then this happens. I wouldn't trust him as far as i could throw him. *


Oh for heaven's sake, you can't blame him for everything that goes wrong in the whole world.

This country is not that important on the world stage anymore, apart from syphoning dirty money.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> Indeed not: there won't be any winners. It's a tragedy, the whole thing.


Putin will win eventually because despite their bravery and spirit Ukraine can not beat Putin. He will take Ukraine but won't keep it easily, in my opinion this is what the west are banking on, Putin occupied with keeping Ukraine for years to come so he keeps his vile beady eyes off the rest of us.
I hope it's true that Putin is ill, I.hope he is suffering!


----------



## Happy Paws2

3dogs2cats said:


> I hope it's true that Putin is ill, I.hope he is suffering!


and me,


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Oh for heaven's sake, you can't blame him for everything that goes wrong in the whole world.


Maybe not, but BJ has got a lot of Russian friends and it's take him long enough to put sanctions on them, giving them time to move some of their money.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Maybe not, but BJ has got a lot of Russian friends and it's take him long enough to put sanctions on them, giving them time to move some of their money.


What about Macron,Germany and have you looked at Australia?


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> What about Macron,Germany and have you looked at Australia?


I don't care what other counties are doing or not doing, I just ashamed of BJ at the moment. but then I've never like the stuffy idiot anyway, so I don't expect him or his government to do the right thing anyway.


----------



## JANICE199

rona said:


> Oh for heaven's sake, you can't blame him for everything that goes wrong in the whole world.
> 
> This country is not that important on the world stage anymore, apart from syphoning dirty money.


*I'm not blaming him for everything. But i don't trust him and never have. Under his government this country is a shambles and a joke. But hey, that's just my opinion.*


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm not blaming him for everything. But i don't trust him and never have. Under his government this country is a shambles and a joke. But hey, that's just my opinion.*


Couldn't agree with you more, the man's a joke.


----------



## Calvine

3dogs2cats said:


> Putin will win eventually


What I meant when I said there are no winners was: OK Putin _may_ win on points, but in human terms there are already many dead on the Russian side, men who had no wish to go to war; but they leave behind mothers, wives and children, completely bereft (and completely innocent). In WW2, many families lost more than one son. They won't feel like winners I imagine.


----------



## Cully

Can't believe conscripts have been used. Is that right?


----------



## £54etgfb6

Calvine said:


> What I meant when I said there are no winners was: OK Putin _may_ win on points, but in human terms there are already many dead on the Russian side, men who had no wish to go to war; but they leave behind mothers, wives and children, completely bereft (and completely innocent). In WW2, many families lost more than one son. They won't feel like winners I imagine.


Additionally, the Russian public will be demoralised which in terms of economics isn't very good.


----------



## Calvine

Cully said:


> Can't believe conscripts have been used. Is that right?


Russia acknowledges conscripts were part of Ukraine operation, some are POWs | Reuters

Apparently so.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't care what other counties are doing or not doing, I just ashamed of BJ at the moment. but then I've never like the stuffy idiot anyway, so I don't expect him or his government to do the right thing anyway.





JANICE199 said:


> *I'm not blaming him for everything. But i don't trust him and never have. Under his government this country is a shambles and a joke. But hey, that's just my opinion.*


Best take petty politics onto another thread I feel.


----------



## Maurey

Cully said:


> Can't believe conscripts have been used. Is that right?


Yes. Posted about it a few pages ago  only recently been admitted by the government though.


----------



## JANICE199

rona said:


> Best take petty politics onto another thread I feel.


*Petty? The situation in this country is FAR from petty.. Like it or not, the situation with ukraine has become a REAL problem for not just our country but the whole world. *


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> What I meant when I said there are no winners was: OK Putin _may_ win on points, but in human terms there are already many dead on the Russian side, men who had no wish to go to war; but they leave behind mothers, wives and children, completely bereft (and completely innocent). In WW2, many families lost more than one son. They won't feel like winners I imagine.


Yes indeed there are never any winners in human terms, when the bells ring out and people dance in the streets, glad war is over and glad to claim victory, there are still many deaths to mourn, infrastructure destroyed, economic hardships for years to come. For Putin the cost of winning does not matter so long he wins, they say he will stop at nothing which makes him so dangerous, he will take Ukraine because nothing can be done to stop him, he will parade victorious hearing the crowds shouting his name in glory, he will not care that they are also victims of his war, sorry special military operation, he will not care they may be shouting his name in victory but secretly wishing him dead so long as he can claim he has won that is all that will matter. So yes in this war Putin will win because no one else will matter, not the widows, the mothers, the children, no one at all except Putin.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Best take petty politics onto another thread I feel.


Maybe so, but I'm not the playing with people lives.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Well China's not exactly helping his friend Vlad by refusing to supply him with vital aircraft parts!
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...ly-aircraft-parts-after-sanctions-2022-03-10/
> 
> *Russia says China refuses to supply aircraft parts after sanctions*


Thats good news. That would be a blow to him.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Thats good news. That would be a blow to him.


You might like to read this article.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/03/xi-putin-friendship-russia-ukraine/626973/

*China's Russia Risk*
How Beijing manages its relations with Moscow will help define it as a great power.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Cully said:


> Can't believe conscripts have been used. Is that right?


Not only, but they we were from Siberia and other Asian parts of Russia, many of them, because people there are completely subdued, second class and will not protest.
But they actually did. Siberian mums went ballistic. Their boys didn't know they were sent to death. Cannon fodder.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> Best take petty politics onto another thread I feel.


It comes from politics, the reason for this war; the money held in the U.K., why Johnson hasn't acted fast enough to remove oligarchs cash; it's not 'petty', it's the very reason we have this thread! It's not nice to hear but Brexit was a reason too. We - who voted leave - had no idea, well I didn't but evidence shows that vote has made it so much more difficult for those fleeing a war to find a safe space here.

Really, one can't legitimately speak with empathy or anger for refugees without looking at our own country because the actions of our Government past, present and future affect Ukraine. In my opinion.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> It comes from politics, the reason for this war; the money held in the U.K., why Johnson hasn't acted fast enough to remove oligarchs cash; it's not 'petty', it's the very reason we have this thread! It's not nice to hear but Brexit was a reason too. We - who voted leave - had no idea, well I didn't but evidence shows that vote has made it so much more difficult for those fleeing a war to find a safe space here.
> 
> Really, one can't legitimately speak with empathy or anger for refugees without looking at our own country because the actions of our Government past, present and future affect Ukraine. In my opinion.


Yes but.... this thread should really only have evidenced, fact checked posts. There is conjecture and PF is easily located on Google. There's a difference between petty, truth and hyperbole (and personal opinion).


----------



## Pawscrossed

From three years ago, concerns about Russian involvement in Brexit. It is a pro-remain paper, still uncomfortable to read. 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/arron-banks-russia-brexit-meeting


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> Yes but.... this thread should really only have evidenced, fact checked posts. There is conjecture and PF is easily located on Google. There's a difference between petty, truth and hyperbole (and personal opinion).


Fact checked, well one may hope so, but isn't everything political down to personal (petty?) allegiance? Putin included


----------



## white_shadow

.









*https://apnews.com*​.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...t flew undetected,the drone came from Ukraine.

*Military drone from Ukraine war crashes into Croatian capital Zagreb*


----------



## kimthecat

ETA Just watching the morning TV news. Film of Poland welcoming more refugees , families and children arriving with just a suitcase.  Why are the EU punishing them now when they are providing so much for the refugees.

Link removed as requested.

The European Union has decided to impose economic sanctions on its two member states, Poland and Hungary, even as the two countries deal with the influx of over 1.5 Million Ukrainian refugees in the last 2 weeks. European Parliament voted overwhelmingly in favour of these sanctions on Poland and Hungary in the middle of the unfolding humanitarian crisis.

In a press release, European Parliament stated that it was high time for the Commission to protect the EU budget from violations of rule of law. It also mentions that EU funds must be protected from countries that undermine the EU's "liberal democratic values". As per European Union laws introduced in January 2021, EU member countries that bend the rule of law are not eligible to receive funds from the EU.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Just watching the news of Poland welcoming more refugees , families and children arriving with just a suitcase.  Why are the EU punishing them now when they are providing so much for the refugees.
> 
> https://www.opindia.com/2022/03/eur...with-over-1-5-million-ukrainian-refugees/amp/
> 
> The European Union has decided to impose economic sanctions on its two member states, Poland and Hungary, even as the two countries deal with the influx of over 1.5 Million Ukrainian refugees in the last 2 weeks. European Parliament voted overwhelmingly in favour of these sanctions on Poland and Hungary in the middle of the unfolding humanitarian crisis.
> 
> In a press release, European Parliament stated that it was high time for the Commission to protect the EU budget from violations of rule of law. It also mentions that EU funds must be protected from countries that undermine the EU's "liberal democratic values". As per European Union laws introduced in January 2021, EU member countries that bend the rule of law are not eligible to receive funds from the EU.


You'd think they could have delayed wouldn't you?


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> You'd think they could have delayed wouldn't you?


Yes, I added abit more to my post. Just been watching BBC news this morning of Poland welcoming the Refugees , they come with barely a suitcase and Poland is providing everything for them. I know there are rules but if this info is correct , The EUs attitude shocks me .


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> ETA Just watching the morning TV news. Film of Poland welcoming more refugees , families and children arriving with just a suitcase.  Why are the EU punishing them now when they are providing so much for the refugees.
> 
> https://www.opindia.com/2022/03/eur...with-over-1-5-million-ukrainian-refugees/amp/
> 
> The European Union has decided to impose economic sanctions on its two member states, Poland and Hungary, even as the two countries deal with the influx of over 1.5 Million Ukrainian refugees in the last 2 weeks. European Parliament voted overwhelmingly in favour of these sanctions on Poland and Hungary in the middle of the unfolding humanitarian crisis.
> 
> In a press release, European Parliament stated that it was high time for the Commission to protect the EU budget from violations of rule of law. It also mentions that EU funds must be protected from countries that undermine the EU's "liberal democratic values". As per European Union laws introduced in January 2021, EU member countries that bend the rule of law are not eligible to receive funds from the EU.


Its not that clear cut. The tweets mentioned in that Opindia link are GB News (funded by pro Brexit Legatum Institute, Dubai consortiums and two Conservative MPs), other 'experts' in propaganda and known to have far right bias. As far as I can make out, Hungary and Poland may have been creating a political law or judiciary so there emote to this than the report indicates. I'm not sure but this is worth a fact check first. Nothing on the fact checking websites but that media link is very biased and other mid and left report a different story.

I know I'm a Remainer but I'm more pro actual facts and independent (in as much as one can) reporting. I don't know enough about this but we must be careful n what we share.

Edit - the history of this goes back to 2017, it looks like the narrative has been adjusted to make it look like the EU is penalising the countries now over refugees when the background (rightly or wrongly, it is too complicated for me to work out) was much earlier.

A quick Google search found this and other sides to this story. Again we need to maybe check what we post here to give all sides to allow wider reading if folk choose or PF becomes a propaganda site. In my opinion.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/...e-legal-challenge-against-eu-rule-of-law-tool


----------



## Calvine

Maurey said:


> Yes. Posted about it a few pages ago  only recently been admitted by the government though.


That's right, apparently it was originally denounced as ''fake news'', considered illegal and dealt with accordingly (probably a few years in a gulag!).


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Why are the EU punishing them now when they are providing so much for the refugees.


Just wow - unbelievable - just when they should consider giving them extra, if anything. Maybe they are missing the megabucks that UK used to contribute and trying to claw it back? It's when I read this sort of thing that I am glad we left. I had not read this, @kimthecat, thanks for posting.


----------



## Magyarmum

What you quoted @kimthecat is as @MollySmith says disinformation. There's been a long standing dispute between Hungary and the EU and Poland and the EU about the Rule of Law

This article from the Friedrich Naumann Foundation will put it into perspective.

https://www.freiheit.org/ungarn-und-polen-scheitern-mit-klage

*Legal Defeat for Hungary and Poland

Time is Ticking*
Yet, critics voice concerns about the speed at which we can expect the Commission to act. While some suggest that the French presidency would like to see its term through without a prosecution that could potentially become a mess in the public media, others are cautious as to whether the Commission will act before the Hungarian elections, to not interfere with domestic politics. In addition, von der Leyen will need to score a qualified majority in the Council (min. 55% of EU countries), to execute the mechanism, so she is expected to take some time to prepare a solid case and gather support.

One thing is certain: von der Leyen will need to put her running shoes on and commit to delivering on the mechanism soon, because the world is watching. For years now, the EU has been slowly securing a position of moral authority on the global playing field and thus made itself indispensable as an international player. However, disputes like these have been showing cracks in our so stable seeming European home to the rest of the world, and autocratic leaders have been using these in their rhetoric to weaken the EU's standing and influence. If we do not manage to reign in our own at home, we can hardly be expected to exert authority abroad. The upcoming weeks will therefore be crucial to show our EU citizens and the world that the European project is alive and kicking.


----------



## Magyarmum

No idea what is happening but a couple of hours ago 8 planes flew over my house on their way to Kosice Barca Airport in Slovakia about 25 miles from where I live. Possibly NATO forces.

A couple of planes went in the opposite direction but could have been commercial aircraft heading for either Debrecen or Budapest


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-60707839?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

*British pig farmers have warned the industry could collapse as feed prices rise sharply as a result of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. *

The countries are two of the biggest suppliers of wheat for animal feed.

Costs have risen by 50% in a week, and the National Pig Association (NPA) has urged retailers to pay more for pork.

Farming Minister Victoria Prentis said: "I have already announced an immediate review of fairness in pig industry supply chains and work is under way."

She added: "This builds on schemes we have introduced to help clear the backlog of pigs, a temporary visa scheme for pork butchers, and conversations with the major banks and retailers to ensure they are showing flexibility to pig farmers at this difficult time."


----------



## Magyarmum

*Line Of Duty UK*
t81S0p Mahor4soh0ch uat re14:d9191 · 
Instead of complaining about the cost of things & knowing it'll get worse, here's a different mindset. I crawled into a warm bed last night and I know where I'm sleeping tonight. There is a roof over my head & the house is warm. The fridge and cupboards have food. I turn on the tap and have clean water. If I have to take less trips, walk a bit further, so be it. We are luckier than most people that we share this world with right now. Count your blessings, not your entitlements.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> *Line Of Duty UK*
> t81S0p Mahor4soh0ch uat re14:d9191 ·
> Instead of complaining about the cost of things & knowing it'll get worse, here's a different mindset. I crawled into a warm bed last night and I know where I'm sleeping tonight. There is a roof over my head & the house is warm. The fridge and cupboards have food. I turn on the tap and have clean water. If I have to take less trips, walk a bit further, so be it. We are luckier than most people that we share this world with right now. Count your blessings, not your entitlements.





Magyarmum said:


> *Line Of Duty UK*
> t81S0p Mahor4soh0ch uat re14:d9191 ·
> Instead of complaining about the cost of things & knowing it'll get worse, here's a different mindset. I crawled into a warm bed last night and I know where I'm sleeping tonight. There is a roof over my head & the house is warm. The fridge and cupboards have food. I turn on the tap and have clean water. If I have to take less trips, walk a bit further, so be it. We are luckier than most people that we share this world with right now. Count your blessings, not your entitlements.


How true: I bumped into a neighbour yesterday. Despite being on benefits, he has a beautiful home with absolutely everything paid for as far as I can see. He even had central heating installed and paid for by some scheme or other. All he did was complain about how hard up he was, and , oh, me, me, me, poor me, I will not be able to pay my gas bill, I don't know how I will cope . . . etc, etc, etc. I don't know why I went through all the upheaval of having the (free) central heating, poor me, I won't be able to afford to turn it on. Then he tried to talk me into going to Citizens' Advice with him to see if he was entitled to anything else to lighten his heavy load. I wanted to slap him.


----------



## MollySmith

Magyarmum said:


> What you quoted @kimthecat is as @MollySmith says disinformation. There's been a long standing dispute between Hungary and the EU and Poland and the EU about the Rule of Law
> 
> This article from the Friedrich Naumann Foundation will put it into perspective.
> 
> https://www.freiheit.org/ungarn-und-polen-scheitern-mit-klage
> 
> *Legal Defeat for Hungary and Poland
> 
> Time is Ticking*
> Yet, critics voice concerns about the speed at which we can expect the Commission to act. While some suggest that the French presidency would like to see its term through without a prosecution that could potentially become a mess in the public media, others are cautious as to whether the Commission will act before the Hungarian elections, to not interfere with domestic politics. In addition, von der Leyen will need to score a qualified majority in the Council (min. 55% of EU countries), to execute the mechanism, so she is expected to take some time to prepare a solid case and gather support.
> 
> One thing is certain: von der Leyen will need to put her running shoes on and commit to delivering on the mechanism soon, because the world is watching. For years now, the EU has been slowly securing a position of moral authority on the global playing field and thus made itself indispensable as an international player. However, disputes like these have been showing cracks in our so stable seeming European home to the rest of the world, and autocratic leaders have been using these in their rhetoric to weaken the EU's standing and influence. If we do not manage to reign in our own at home, we can hardly be expected to exert authority abroad. The upcoming weeks will therefore be crucial to show our EU citizens and the world that the European project is alive and kicking.


Thank you. PF refused to let me tag anyone!


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Just wow - unbelievable - just when they should consider giving them extra, if anything. Maybe they are missing the megabucks that UK used to contribute and trying to claw it back? It's when I read this sort of thing that I am glad we left. I had not read this, @kimthecat, thanks for posting.


It's incorrect. Maybe worth removing the link @kimthecat? See @Magyarmum 's post for an accurate source.


----------



## MollySmith

Magyarmum said:


> *Line Of Duty UK*
> t81S0p Mahor4soh0ch uat re14:d9191 ·
> Instead of complaining about the cost of things & knowing it'll get worse, here's a different mindset. I crawled into a warm bed last night and I know where I'm sleeping tonight. There is a roof over my head & the house is warm. The fridge and cupboards have food. I turn on the tap and have clean water. If I have to take less trips, walk a bit further, so be it. We are luckier than most people that we share this world with right now. Count your blessings, not your entitlements.


Yes and without invalidating others fears. We are - I hope - all safe and well as we can be but there's a lot of folk in the U.K. either in poverty or on the verge of it. We each have tidal waves and the depth cannot be measured but we can be grateful for small blessings.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Yes and without invalidating others fears. We are - I hope - all safe and well as we can be but there's a lot of folk in the U.K. either in poverty or on the verge of it. We each have tidal waves and the depth cannot be measured but we can be grateful for small blessings.


Yes indeed. people are struggling now . This will certainly push some people into poverty regardless if they are earning or are on benefits.


----------



## Happy Paws2

With everything going up we are starting think we'll have to dip into what small savings we have to make sure we are warm and can eat reasonable well. 

But I really feel for people who are struggling now, how they are going to manage over next winter I have no idea and the government couldn't care less.


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> Yes and without invalidating others fears. We are - I hope - all safe and well as we can be but there's a lot of folk in the U.K. either in poverty or on the verge of it. We each have tidal waves and the depth cannot be measured but we can be grateful for small blessings.


This

The images we are seeing are horrific and it does make you take stock and feel grateful. However we cannot invalidate the feelings of others. This year will see people not being able to afford to feed their families and some elderly and vulnerable are likely to die due to fuel hikes.

I look at my nieces 1 & 4 and it breaks my heart to think of what their future may look like. War, pandemic, climate crisis. I also do not feel particularly safe in my bed knowing there is a madman in Europe with his finger hovering over the nuclear button. Maybe these feelings make me selfish who knows.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> This
> 
> The images we are seeing are horrific and it does make you take stock and feel grateful. However we cannot invalidate the feelings of others. This year will see people not being able to afford to feed their families and some elderly and vulnerable are likely to die due to fuel hikes.
> 
> I look at my nieces 1 & 4 and it breaks my heart to think of what their future may look like. War, pandemic, climate crisis. I also do not feel particularly safe in my bed knowing there is a madman in Europe with his finger hovering over the nuclear button. Maybe these feelings make me selfish who knows.


Thank you. Different storms, different boats and yes, many are luckier than most but we are all paddling. I count myself as one more fortunate though I have struggled with death and grief. Some might see me as worse off. Luck and fortune are not measured since money couldn't buy me what I want. But as you observe perhaps not brining a child into such an awful world isn't such a loss. It's dreadful and I can empathise with your thoughts. I do not think it selfish, it's a real fear.

What we can do, is learn from this, and use the privilege of our votes to inform as much as we can during times of peace. Boris maybe many things but he's not (yet or ever one hopes) a madman dictator.



kimthecat said:


> Yes indeed. people are struggling now . This will certainly push some people into poverty regardless if they are earning or are on benefits.


14.5m people in September 2021 were classed as 'in poverty' as a result of the pandemic and Universal Credit cuts. More here from The Big Issue. 
https://www.bigissue.com/news/social-justice/uk-poverty-the-facts-figures-and-effects/


----------



## Cully

Boxer123 said:


> This
> 
> The images we are seeing are horrific and it does make you take stock and feel grateful. However we cannot invalidate the feelings of others. This year will see people not being able to afford to feed their families and some elderly and vulnerable are likely to die due to fuel hikes.
> 
> I look at my nieces 1 & 4 and it breaks my heart to think of what their future may look like. War, pandemic, climate crisis. I also do not feel particularly safe in my bed knowing there is a madman in Europe with his finger hovering over the nuclear button. Maybe these feelings make me selfish who knows.


((Hugs)) you aren't the only one.


----------



## cheekyscrip

This war is a war against Europe and NATO.
It benefits China and to some degree India .

Russia forced to trade with them at their prices.

Russia with no SWIFT will have to use Chinese alternative - so Chinese banks will have all information on trade, customers etc…
They will have to buy technology from China .. like mobiles etc… with all possible bugs..


----------



## DogLover1981

You know, the lack of any real meaningful response to the war in Syria and the invasion of Crimea, I think emboldened Putin a bit. The Syrian war was a mess though which I think muted the response to it. I imagine Putin was gambling that the international response to invading Ukraine would be minimal at best. Instead, there are sustained protests all over the world, really harsh sanctions and NATO countries are sending weapons to Ukraine.


----------



## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> You know, the lack of any real meaningful response to the war in Syria and the invasion of Crimea, I think emboldened Putin a bit. The Syrian war was a mess though which I think muted the response to it. I imagine Putin was gambling that the international response to invading Ukraine would be minimal at best. Instead, there are sustained protests all over the world, really harsh sanctions and NATO countries are sending weapons to Ukraine.


Not to mention the boycotts from organizations, the general public and even investors. Russian oil that wasn't yet sanctioned has even been refused. It's a rather extreme response. I think people are really bothered by the scenes coming out of Ukraine. Civilians are being targeted, historic buildings are being damaged and the Russian military is intentionally targeting infrastructure, heat, food, etc. so as to intentionally leave people without water and food. I've seen reports of people with dehydration. They are using weapons that are specifically designed to kill civilians. I'm not even sure I want to know how many people have killed with all the shelling and missiles.


----------



## cheekyscrip

https://chng.it/DwH8RHFN
PayPal still sends Russian money.
Please sign the petition.


----------



## Magyarmum

Boxer123 said:


> This
> 
> The images we are seeing are horrific and it does make you take stock and feel grateful. However we cannot invalidate the feelings of others. This year will see people not being able to afford to feed their families and some elderly and vulnerable are likely to die due to fuel hikes.
> 
> I look at my nieces 1 & 4 and it breaks my heart to think of what their future may look like. War, pandemic, climate crisis. I also do not feel particularly safe in my bed knowing there is a madman in Europe with his finger hovering over the nuclear button. Maybe these feelings make me selfish who knows.


It's not exactly conducive to a good night's sleep knowing your bed is only 200 miles, as the crow flies from the fighting.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> It's not exactly conducive to a good night's sleep knowing your bed is only 200 miles, as the crow flies from the fighting.


I didn't realise you were that close, it must be very unsettling for you.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> I didn't realise you were that close, it must be very unsettling for you.


Yup! More or less in the direct line of fire from Lviv.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Yup! More or less in the direct line of fire from Lviv.


Oh dear, now I shall be worrying about you and your lovely boys.


----------



## MollySmith

Magyarmum said:


> It's not exactly conducive to a good night's sleep knowing your bed is only 200 miles, as the crow flies from the fighting.


I can't imagine how that must feel.


----------



## MollySmith

DogLover1981 said:


> You know, the lack of any real meaningful response to the war in Syria and the invasion of Crimea, I think emboldened Putin a bit. The Syrian war was a mess though which I think muted the response to it. I imagine Putin was gambling that the international response to invading Ukraine would be minimal at best. Instead, there are sustained protests all over the world, really harsh sanctions and NATO countries are sending weapons to Ukraine.


The responses to other conflicts has been shameful and I count myself in that. I agree, the West did very little - by which I mean the likes of some turning social media accounts to #standwithukraine and (one hopes) also donate £ or other acts with measurable outcomes etc. (I have an issue with brands creating products in yellow and blue and only donating a moderate % to a charity - just donate and stop inappropriately marketing a brand). I can well imagine Putin thinking people wouldn't care so deeply based on past responses.

i suspect with some conflicts further afield it's a worry over ethnicity based on ignorance and it being 'over there'? Uncomfortable to write it but can't not write it or find better words.


----------



## Happy Paws2

If NATO aren't going to get it's act together and do something quickly, may we need to send in a suicide bomber and kill Putin.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Fighting 30 km from Polish frontiers.
Belarus puppet Lukashenko in front of his puppet parliament accused Poland of preparing invasion on Belarus.
And that it will not be tolerated. So Russia basically threatened Poland.

Meanwhile the Orthodox Church spoke- this war is to protect and free Ukraine and then Moldova and Baltic States from sin brought by gay parades.
To protect Slavs from NATO extermination.
I am not making it up, however demented it sounds.

So this war is basically a crusade by Russia to purge the sin of gay parades.
According to Kirill the head of Ortodox Church in Russia.
And they will not stop until they save you all.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Oh dear, now I shall be worrying about you and your lovely boys.





MollySmith said:


> I can't imagine how that must feel.


Happy Paws2 that's very sweet of you, but please don't worry on my behalf.

There's a large contingent of of Hungarian Military and NATO forces some 80 miles up the road on the Ukrainian/ Hungarian border so I feel quite safe. I see no point in worrying about something that's totally beyond my control. I've made my contingency plans should the situation alter but I'm certainly not leaving my home unless I absolutely have to ..... Russians or not! . .

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_193072.htm


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Fighting 30 km from Polish frontiers.
> Belarus puppet Lukashenko in front of his puppet parliament accused Poland of preparing invasion on Belarus.
> And that it will not be tolerated. So Russia basically threatened Poland.
> 
> Meanwhile the Orthodox Church spoke- this war is to protect and free Ukraine and then Moldova and Baltic States from sin brought by gay parades.
> To protect Slavs from NATO extermination.
> I am not making it up, however demented it sounds.
> 
> So this war is basically a crusade by Russia to purge the sin of gay parades.
> According to Kirill the head of Ortodox Church in Russia.
> And they will not stop until they save you all.


https://www.cato.org/commentary/blaming-ukraine-invasion-gays

*Blaming the Ukraine Invasion on … the Gays?*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.cato.org/commentary/blaming-ukraine-invasion-gays
> 
> *Blaming the Ukraine Invasion on … the Gays?*


Yep.
Rainbows?
Right to be yourself?
Human rights?
Freedom?
That cannot be tolerated in any decent dictatorship blessed by their subservient church….

This not about Ukraine, this is about the free world against dictatorship.

If Russia and China take the lead … where do you think they will lead us?
One giant North Korea…


----------



## white_shadow

.








*https://apnews.com*​.


----------



## Maurey

Some potentially promising news regarding peace talks. I desperately hope. Rough translation of local news.


Mikhail Podolyak, adviser to the head of the Office of the President of Ukraine, said: “Our demands are the end of the war and the withdrawal of Russian troops. I see that there is an understanding of this process and a dialogue.” He stressed that Ukraine is not going to deviate from its positions on transfers. "Representatives of the Russian Federation at the talks no longer say something as an ultimatum, but listen carefully to our proposals,” Podolyak added.

The head of the State Duma Committee on International Affairs, Leonid Slutsky, who is part of the Russian delegation at the talks, said that specific documents could be prepared for signing in coming days. “If we compare the positions of both delegations at the talks at the very beginning and today, then we will see significant progress. And once again I will repeat with pleasure that, according to my personal expectations, this progress can develop in the very next few days into a common position of both delegations, into documents for signing," Slutsky said. He did not specify what kind of documents they might be talking about.

Three rounds of negotiations have already been held between the Russian and Ukrainian delegations in Belarus. They did not give significant results. Press Secretary of the President of the Russian Federation Dmitry Peskov said that the fourth round will be held on March 14 via video link.


----------



## Jesthar

Maurey said:


> Some potentially promising news regarding peace talks. I desperately hope. Rough translation of local news.


We all hope so!

How are YOU doing, Maurey? Are you OK?


----------



## MollySmith

Maurey said:


> Some potentially promising news regarding peace talks. I desperately hope. Rough translation of local news.
> 
> Mikhail Podolyak, adviser to the head of the Office of the President of Ukraine, said: "Our demands are the end of the war and the withdrawal of Russian troops. I see that there is an understanding of this process and a dialogue." He stressed that Ukraine is not going to deviate from its positions on transfers. "Representatives of the Russian Federation at the talks no longer say something as an ultimatum, but listen carefully to our proposals," Podolyak added.
> 
> The head of the State Duma Committee on International Affairs, Leonid Slutsky, who is part of the Russian delegation at the talks, said that specific documents could be prepared for signing in coming days. "If we compare the positions of both delegations at the talks at the very beginning and today, then we will see significant progress. And once again I will repeat with pleasure that, according to my personal expectations, this progress can develop in the very next few days into a common position of both delegations, into documents for signing," Slutsky said. He did not specify what kind of documents they might be talking about.
> 
> Three rounds of negotiations have already been held between the Russian and Ukrainian delegations in Belarus. They did not give significant results. Press Secretary of the President of the Russian Federation Dmitry Peskov said that the fourth round will be held on March 14 via video link.


I am not religious but I'm praying for better news, I hope you're doing as well as you can be ((hugs))


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## Maurey

Jesthar said:


> We all hope so!
> 
> How are YOU doing, Maurey? Are you OK?


I don't live near the border, so I'm mostly all right  stressed about inflation/prices going up, and the potential consequences of import limitation, but I'm really hoping this invasion ends soon, given the reported change in tone peace talks are going through. Some essentials are twice the price because of a mix of price gaugers and people hoarding, but perishables seem to still be in a reasonable price range. A huge amount of protestors have been arrested, and since the dissent is doing nothing, I'm just not going to risk protesting, given you can, theoretically, get up to 20 years in prison.


----------



## kimthecat

Children with cancer are coming to the Uk for cancer treatment.

They are allowing people to bring their pets 

"The government is preparing to announce emergency measures to make it easier for the victims of war to keep their cats and dogs with them rather than abandoning them in countries en route to the UK, such as Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Germany. "

from the Independent.


----------



## £54etgfb6

MollySmith said:


> The responses to other conflicts has been shameful and I count myself in that. I agree, the West did very little - by which I mean the likes of some turning social media accounts to #standwithukraine and (one hopes) also donate £ or other acts with measurable outcomes etc. (I have an issue with brands creating products in yellow and blue and only donating a moderate % to a charity - just donate and stop inappropriately marketing a brand). I can well imagine Putin thinking people wouldn't care so deeply based on past responses.
> 
> i suspect with some conflicts further afield it's a worry over ethnicity based on ignorance and it being 'over there'? Uncomfortable to write it but can't not write it or find better words.


You're right. A lot of people view conflicts happening further afield as "not our problem" whereas war occurring within a White, European country is a tragedy and action must be taken right now. An example of this is Prince William himself referring to war in Europe as "alien" as if both WW1 and WW2 didn't occur *in Europe* (idiot ). While the global reaction to Ukraine has been necessary, where has been such a response for other conflicts? And I'm not referring to the general public alone, where have been the boycotts and political sanctions for Israel over it's actions in Palestine? Is this not as important because they are not European and are wild animals who can only converse through acts of violence? Is it because they are not White? Is it because there is no threat to us (as opposed to nuclear war from Russia)?
​While it might be uncomfortable to write, it is undoubtedly true.

Edit: If anyone would like to view the ignorance of our dearly beloved national treasure that is the Royal family https://www.vanityfair.com/style/20...-africa-asia-journalist-activists-history/amp


----------



## Magyarmum

bmr10 said:


> You're right. A lot of people view conflicts happening further afield as "not our problem" whereas war occurring within a White, European country is a tragedy and action must be taken right now. An example of this is Prince William himself referring to war in Europe as "alien" as if both WW1 and WW2 didn't occur *in Europe* (idiot ). While the global reaction to Ukraine has been necessary, where has been such a response for other conflicts? And I'm not referring to the general public alone, where have been the boycotts and political sanctions for Israel over it's actions in Palestine? Is this not as important because they are not European and are wild animals who can only converse through acts of violence? Is it because they are not White? Is it because there is no threat to us (as opposed to nuclear war from Russia)?
> ​While it might be uncomfortable to write, it is undoubtedly true.
> 
> Edit: If anyone would like to view the ignorance of our dearly beloved national treasure that is the Royal family https://www.vanityfair.com/style/20...-africa-asia-journalist-activists-history/amp


IMO you're taking it out of context!

I lived (for years) under the draconian sanctions imposed on South Africa during the apartheid era. Despite not being a South African myself and someone who certainly didn't condone what was happening and was quite vocal against the regime I didn't receive any compassion such as has been expressed on this forum for the "poor" Russians. Rather I was told I was a traitor for living there and whilst I might not agree with the government I was white and therefore guilty by association and deserved everything that was metred out.to me.

The big difference to what is happening today is that what was happening in SA or the then Rhodesia posed no threat to the rest of the world .whereas in the present situation we're only hours or maybe only seconds away from a war that will involve the whole of Europe and it's allies, and more frighteningly could be Putin's excuse for the use of nuclear weapons

IMO criticising Prince William seems rather petty to say the least. As someone who also lived through WW2 I would remind you our Royal Family played a vital role in keeping the country together and boosting moral which was something their European royal cousins failed to do,
.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Magyarmum said:


> IMO criticising Prince William seems rather petty to say the least


I didn't write the article as I don't work for Vanity Fair so you'll have to take the critical angle of the article up with them, unfortunately. I was giving an example of how yes, members of the British public _do_ have a bias when it comes to where a conflict is taking place. If my post came off as criticism that is likely because I dislike the royal family and I do indeed believe it is idiotic to say that wars don't occur in Europe, particularly if you are a member of the royal family and expected to be aware of global affairs. Regardless of how nice a guy William is, what he said was, objectively, incorrect and very ignorant.



Magyarmum said:


> As someone who also lived through WW2 I would remind you our Royal Family played a vital role in keeping the country together and boosting moral which was something their European royal cousins failed to do,


I don't personally think the royal family keeping morale high from 1939-1945 is related to a current descendent saying that war in Europe is "alien" in 2022 when Russia has already had a war with Crimea and Ukraine in 2014. Regardless of what beneficial things the royal family have done in the past, present or future my post was purely an example of someone who is out of touch with the reality that yes, Europe is involved in many wars just as the entirety of the world is. This was in relation to someone else's post that said the West has done very little with previous conflicts. I was highlighting that the West is often unaware such conflicts have even taken place. Also, I am not here to take shots at which members of the royal family are better than others but the British royal family housed a Nazi sympathiser and friend of Hitler for what it's worth (Edward the 8th).


----------



## Magyarmum

bmr10 said:


> I didn't write the article as I don't work for Vanity Fair so you'll have to take the critical angle of the article up with them, unfortunately. I was giving an example of how yes, members of the British public _do_ have a bias when it comes to where a conflict is taking place. If my post came off as criticism that is likely because I dislike the royal family and I do indeed believe it is idiotic to say that wars don't occur in Europe, particularly if you are a member of the royal family and expected to be aware of global affairs. Regardless of how nice a guy William is, what he said was, objectively, incorrect and very ignorant.
> 
> I don't personally think the royal family keeping morale high from 1939-1945 is related to a current descendent saying that war in Europe is "alien" in 2022 when Russia has already had a war with Crimea and Ukraine in 2014. Regardless of what beneficial things the royal family have done in the past, present or future my post was purely an example of someone who is out of touch with the reality that yes, Europe is involved in many wars just as the entirety of the world is. This was in relation to someone else's post that said the West has done very little with previous conflicts. I was highlighting that the West is often unaware such conflicts have even taken place. Also, I am not here to take shots at which members of the royal family are better than others but the British royal family housed a Nazi sympathiser and friend of Hitler for what it's worth (Edward the 8th).


Thank you for the info about the duke of Windsor's and his wife's opinions of which I've been aware for years. Also the fact that because of the alarm caused by their Nazi sentiment the British government bundled them both off to the Bahamas where they could do no harm. And were ostracised by the Royal family for the rest of their lives.

You chose to ignore my other comments ...... ah well!.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Magyarmum said:


> Thank you for the info about the duke of Windsor's and his wife's opinions of which I've been aware for years. Also the fact that because of the alarm caused by their Nazi sentiment the British government bundled them both off to the Bahamas where they could do no harm. And were ostracised by the Royal family for the rest of their lives.
> 
> You chose to ignore my other comments ...... ah well!.


In the second paragraph of your post, I agreed with what you said but I didn't comment on it as I had already mentioned lack of threat as a potential reason as to why there has been little reaction from the West for previous conflicts. Your first paragraph I didn't reply to because it wasn't really relevant to a discussion about lack of concern from the west around previous wars. I replied to the comments about me taking William's words out of context because that was the premise of your reply and was the subject of my post which you replied to.

Also, they were not ostracised for the rest of their lives. They are both buried in the royal burial grounds at Windsor, their funerals were attended by royal family members including the Queen herself, and while alive they attended other royal family members' funerals within Britain in the 50-60s. Not quite ostracised, in my opinion at least.


----------



## Jesthar

bmr10 said:


> You're right. A lot of people view conflicts happening further afield as "not our problem" whereas war occurring within a White, European country is a tragedy and action must be taken right now. An example of this is Prince William himself referring to war in Europe as "alien" as if both WW1 and WW2 didn't occur *in Europe* (idiot ).


I know you dislike the Royal Family, but I think that is rather unfair.

Europe has enjoyed it's longest ever period of general peace since the close of WW2, to the point where anyone not in their 80s has no real memory of what it means to be alive when your country is in a major warzone, and the Queen is the only remaining head of state to have lived through it. So yes, large scale conflict on the doorstep is (or was) currently an alien concept to most people alive in Europe today. The ancient past is irrelevent in this instance and is not what was being referred to; Europe (like everywhere else) may have been shaped by war, but it hasn't had seen anything like this in the better part of a century.



bmr10 said:


> While the global reaction to Ukraine has been necessary, where has been such a response for other conflicts? And I'm not referring to the general public alone, where have been the boycotts and political sanctions for Israel over it's actions in Palestine? Is this not as important because they are not European and are wild animals who can only converse through acts of violence? Is it because they are not White? Is it because there is no threat to us (as opposed to nuclear war from Russia)?
> ​While it might be uncomfortable to write, it is undoubtedly true.


Such whataboutary comparisons are always dangerous, but as far as I recall this is the first war where the invader-in-chief not only has the worldwide nuclear option, but has come out of the starting gate making indiscriminate threats about using it. That kind of makes it everyones problem...

Then there is the question of scale - you mention Israel/Palestine - neither is nice, but looking at the statistics, israel/Palestine hasn't racked up as many dead (on both sides) in 18 years as Putin's invasion has in 18 _days_. Which is hardly surprising given that Putin has sent 150,000+ troops into Ukraine and is merrily ordering them to flatten anything in their path after the initial plan (to be welcomed as liberating heroes and surgically remove the Ukrainian government) descended into total chaos when both the government and everyday Ukranians said "Ni" and refuse to roll over and surrender as expected.

Thera are also a lot more legal complexities surrounding Palestine - but middle eastern politics is way too complicated for the likes of me to get my head around, and not something to get distracted into on this thread.


----------



## Magyarmum

bmr10 said:


> In the second paragraph of your post, I agreed with what you said but I didn't comment on it as I had already mentioned lack of threat as a potential reason as to why there has been little reaction from the West for previous conflicts. Your first paragraph I didn't reply to because it wasn't really relevant to a discussion about lack of concern from the west around previous wars. I replied to the comments about me taking William's words out of context because that was the premise of your reply and was the subject of my post which you replied to.
> 
> Also, they were not ostracised for the rest of their lives. They are both buried in the royal burial grounds at Windsor, their funerals were attended by royal family members including the Queen herself, and while alive they attended other royal family members' funerals within Britain in the 50-60s. Not quite ostracised, in my opinion at least.


Quite frankly from where I'm sitting some 80 miles from the Ukrainian border your comments about Prince William and the Royal family come over as petty and at this point in time totally irrelevant to what is happening in Ukraine..

But that's just my opinion for what it's worth!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Bar codes from 460 to 469 mean Russian products. Belarus 481. By buying those products your money support the war.
Beware: look at Polish vodka bar code as some is sold by Russia. Then Rexona, Dove…


----------



## kimthecat

The resilience of the Ukranians. Im struck at how they can smile after losing everything. This has me in tears .

Dominic Dyer on Twitter

96 years old she survived German occupation and Hitler, but was forced to leave her home in Kharkiv as the Russians were bombing her hometown. She left home wearing just her robe and with her cat Alice. She is now in Warsaw.


----------



## stuaz

kimthecat said:


> The resilience of the Ukranians. Im struck at how they can smile after losing everything. This has me in tears .
> 
> Dominic Dyer on Twitter
> 
> 96 years old she survived German occupation and Hitler, but was forced to leave her home in Kharkiv as the Russians were bombing her hometown. She left home wearing just her robe and with her cat Alice. She is now in Warsaw.


I guess at least she is safe now, sadly so many haven't been able to escape including one of my friends and colleagues


----------



## DogLover1981

One aspect of this conflict I didn't fully think about is the number of people fleeing Russia. It's awful. I do know someone that moved here from Russia many years ago and she's a little concerned about her safety because of this conflict, she's afraid of people blaming her for the war in Ukraine.  Other countries are now dealing with refugees from both sides of this conflict. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/people-leaving-russia-ukraine-war


----------



## kimthecat

stuaz said:


> I guess at least she is safe now, sadly so many haven't been able to escape including one of my friends and colleagues


Im sorry to hear that.


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## DogLover1981

wow. An anti-war protester interrupted the Russian state news. O.O


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> (I have an issue with brands creating products in yellow and blue and only donating a moderate % to a charity)


I believe it is called ''virtue signalling'' @MollySmith. Many ''celebs'' have jumped on the blue and yellow bandwagon (as celebs always do). I remember many years ago that there was a scandal as so much of Oxfam's profits were spent on 'overheads' (ie fat cats) that a completely negligible amount went to ''the hungry''. But the 'celebs' were still plugging it as though Oxfam were a lifesaver,.


----------



## stuaz

kimthecat said:


> Im sorry to hear that.


Thank you. Luckily he managed to get his wife, child and dog out of Ukraine in the early days of the invasion.

Contact is a bit hit or miss but I last spoke to him on Friday. When I speak to him though, he just wants to know what's happening at work or in my life. He says it helps him keep some level of sanity to hear "normal" things, while holding a gun in the street defending his home.

It's something I can't even comprehend to be perfectly honest.


----------



## kimthecat

DogLover1981 said:


> wow. An anti-war protester interrupted the Russian state news. O.O


A very brave woman. I dread to think what will happen to her


----------



## Maurey

DogLover1981 said:


> wow. An anti-war protester interrupted the Russian state news. O.O


She worked for the company, and has been arrested. I doubt she'll be let go any time soon


----------



## DogLover1981

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in Russia in the coming weeks. Putin and his government are trying to block various sites and social media, yet there are large percentage of people in Russia that use FB and other sites. That could trigger protests just in itself. This is really uncharted waters and some people in Russia are sharing how to use VPNs. There has been sustained anti-war protests in Russia of varying sizes over the past few weeks.


----------



## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> It's going to be interesting to see what happens in Russia in the coming weeks. Putin and his government are trying to block various sites and social media, yet there are large percentage of people in Russia that use FB and other sites. That could trigger protests just in itself. This is really uncharted waters and some people in Russia are sharing how to use VPNs. There has been sustained anti-war protests in Russia of varying sizes over the past few weeks.


And that doesn't even account for the sanctions, boycotts, etc. O.O


----------



## Maurey

The thing is, protesting does nothing but get people arrested  the government doesn’t give a shit.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> One aspect of this conflict I didn't fully think about is the number of people fleeing Russia. It's awful. I do know someone that moved here from Russia many years ago and she's a little concerned about her safety because of this conflict, she's afraid of people blaming her for the war in Ukraine.  Other countries are now dealing with refugees from both sides of this conflict.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/people-leaving-russia-ukraine-war


According to the UNHCR data some 131,000 Ukrainians have fled to Russia and 1,000 to Belarus.

https://data2.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/13/world/ukraine-refugee-crisis-countries/index.html

*More than 2.5 million Ukrainians have fled their country since Russia's invasion. Here's where they are now*


----------



## DogLover1981

Maurey said:


> The thing is, protesting does nothing but get people arrested  the government doesn't give a shit.


Protests by them self don't do much and I wouldn't recommend a small protest if I were in Russia right now. The protests in Russia are not likely to accomplish anything unless they are *really large*. A hundred thousand or even better a million protesters in Moscow would probably leave an impression for example. Too, arresting a million people would be tricky to say the least. O.O


----------



## Maurey

DogLover1981 said:


> Protests by them self don't do much and I wouldn't recommend a small protest if I were in Russia right now. The protests in Russia are not likely to accomplish anything unless they are *really large*. A hundred thousand or even better a million protesters in Moscow would probably leave an impression for example. Too, arresting a million people would be tricky to say the least. O.O


Sure, maybe most wouldn't be arrested, but doesn't mean police can't (and aren't already) using violent means. Not everything that happens here gets reported in the west. Like jailed peaceful protestors undergoing physical and psychological abuse for making use of their constitutional right to not answer the questions of the police.


----------



## Magyarmum

Maurey said:


> Sure, maybe most wouldn't be arrested, but doesn't mean police can't (and aren't already) using violent means. Not everything that happens here gets reported in the west. Like jailed peaceful protestors undergoing physical and psychological abuse for making use of their constitutional right to not answer the questions of the police.


Exactly. Or people falling from the 6th floor of a building or mysteriously being run over by a car,or accidently drinking poison. All part of the dirty tricks brigade of any authoritarian regime designed to bring the population to heel.


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> According to the UNHCR data some 131,000 Ukrainians have fled to Russia and 1,000 to Belarus.


Safer there I would imagine, no bombs.....................

Lesser of two evils


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.britic.co.uk/?p=953796

*Serbian Civilian Aircraft Intercepted by Hungarian Gripens*


----------



## Boxer123

Will anyone be signing up to house a refugee I have a spare room but you need to offer 6 months and I rent so it looks like I can’t.


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## Happy Paws2

No we don't have room, but there is a empty council bungalow next door to us, not sure what the council might do.


----------



## Calvine

Boxer123 said:


> Will anyone be signing up to house a refugee I have a spare room but you need to offer 6 months and I rent so it looks like I can't.


 Apparently the website crashed as so many people were trying to get through; I think that is a really good sign (despite one poster on the thread constantly telling us how ''the UK hates foreigners'').


----------



## Magyarmum

Just been announced on CNN that the Polish, Czech and Slovenian Prime Ministers have crossed into Ukraine on their way to Kiev.

https://tass.com/world/1422205

*Polish, Czech, Slovenian PMs cross Polish-Ukrainian border on their way to Kiev*
According to Warsaw, the goal of the visit is to reaffirm the European Union's unconditional support for Ukraine's sovereignty and independence, as well as to provide a broad package of assistance to the Ukrainian government and society
WARSAW, March 15. /TASS/. The prime ministers of Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovenia have crossed the Polish-Ukrainian border on their way to the Ukrainian capital of Kiev by train, Chief of the Polish Prime Minister's Chancellery Michal Dworczyk said at a briefing on Tuesday.

"The train on which [Polish] Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki, Deputy Prime Minister for Security Jaroslaw Kaczynski and the prime ministers of the Czech Republic and Slovenia are traveling crossed the Polish-Ukrainian border about an hour ago. The delegation is on its way to Kiev, where it will hold meetings with [Ukrainian] President Zelensky and Prime Minister Shmygal," he said.

"The delegation represents the European Union," Dworczyk said. "Preparations for the visit went on for days, it was being kept secret," he noted. According to the Polish official, a decision about the trip was made at a recent EU summit in France's Versailles in coordination with European Council President Charles Michel and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen. NATO, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and the United Nations have been informed of the visit.

According to Warsaw, the goal of the visit is to reaffirm the European Union's unconditional support for Ukraine's sovereignty and independence, as well as to provide a broad package of assistance to the Ukrainian government and society. Dworczyk said that all the details would be announced at a press conference in Kiev.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think this meeting has been mentioned on the BBC new.


----------



## Jesthar

Interesting, the BBC are also reporting that flagship news presenter Lilia Gildeeva, from Russia's third biggest and firmly pro-Kremlin TV channel, has resigned and left the country. Apparently she left Russia first and then submitted her resignation as she was afraid she'd be detained if she tried to resign first.

It could be interesting to hear what she has to say...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Maurey said:


> Sure, maybe most wouldn't be arrested, but doesn't mean police can't (and aren't already) using violent means. Not everything that happens here gets reported in the west. Like jailed peaceful protestors undergoing physical and psychological abuse for making use of their constitutional right to not answer the questions of the police.


They will use riot police, tear gas, water cannons, dogs and simply shoot them.
Who is caught be will be beaten up savagely not just put to prison.
In prison beating will continue. Plus they do not do political prisoners so they will put them with seasoned criminals.
I remember our demos in Poland in 80ties but that will be worse.
Basically when you were going to demo you didn't know if you ever come back.
Still… we went.
Some never came back.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> A very brave woman. I dread to think what will happen to her


It appears she has been fined, not sure if she will face further charges because it does seem strange that she hasn`t been given a prison sentence considering the law has been changed to allow up to 15yrs.


----------



## DogLover1981

The president of Ukraine seems to be saying they can't join NATO because of Russia but after this war, I do wonder how many refugees will even feel safe returning to Ukraine unless it's a part of NATO and for some, there's not really much to return to with their homes, villages and cities destroyed. It's a messy situation and I certainly wouldn't feel safe returning. The EU may end up with many long term refugees/immigrants out of this war. Putin has already lied a bunch of times.


----------



## Jesthar

DogLover1981 said:


> Putin has already lied a bunch of times.


I wouldn't trust Putin to tell the truth if his life depended on it, let alone anyone elses.

And speaking of our unbeloved Stalin-wannabe, is it me, or does he seem to have dropped out of circulation in the last few days? We don't seem to have been subjected to any of his illogical ramblings in a while, anyway...


----------



## 3dogs2cats

DogLover1981 said:


> You know, the president of Ukraine seems to be saying they can't join NATO because of Russia but after this war I do wonder how many refugees will even feel safe returning to Ukraine unless it's a part of NATO. It's a messy situation and I certainly wouldn't feel safe returning. The EU may end up with many long term refugees/immigrants out of this war. Putin has already lied a bunch of times.


 Ukraine may as well agree to Putin`s demands it doesn`t join NATO as NATO will most likely never let them join, well at least while Putin is in control of Russia anyway! But I agree with you, are the people really going to want to go back if they feel there are at the mercy of another invasion? Putin may well withdraw without overthrowing the Ukraine government but for how long, no matter what peace agreement ends up getting signed, unless Putin gets his way he wont stop, pause maybe while he regroups, order that his troops are better trained for battle then go back and take what he regards as his.


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> I believe it is called ''virtue signalling'' @MollySmith. Many ''celebs'' have jumped on the blue and yellow bandwagon (as celebs always do). I remember many years ago that there was a scandal as so much of Oxfam's profits were spent on 'overheads' (ie fat cats) that a completely negligible amount went to ''the hungry''. But the 'celebs' were still plugging it as though Oxfam were a lifesaver,.


Thank you! I had a total brain fart.

Brew Dog - them of the bullying accusations are doing some seriously awful virtue signalling. If anyone does want to buy a beer and donate 100% of ones pennies to aid organisations in Ukraine then South Hams brewery is the place to be.


----------



## DogLover1981

3dogs2cats said:


> Ukraine may as well agree to Putin`s demands it doesn`t join NATO as NATO will most likely never let them join, well at least while Putin is in control of Russia anyway! But I agree with you, are the people really going to want to go back if they feel there are at the mercy of another invasion? Putin may well withdraw without overthrowing the Ukraine government but for how long, no matter what peace agreement ends up getting signed, unless Putin gets his way he wont stop, pause maybe while he regroups, order that his troops are better trained for battle then go back and take what he regards as his.


And too, I do wonder if the general public in Ukraine is going to be even more in favor of joining NATO at this point. It's such a mess. This war has created some awkward dilemmas for NATO and the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

New terrifying sanctions? 35% tariff on Russian vodka? Just stop selling this shite!
Surely British nation will survive drinking other vodkas…
Ban on luxury goods - fashion? Really Russia being the epitome of a grand design? Surely as a war effort Brits make it without caviar…
All Russian goods sold give Putin money to kill more and destroy more.
This dirty money, Putin is a terrorist.
He will not stop.


----------



## kimthecat

Im wondering if refugees coming over with pets will be able to find temporary accommodation that accepts pets and if they could be fostered if necessary once they have passed all the checks by the government ( rabies injection etc . )


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Im wondering if refugees coming over with pets will be able to find temporary accommodation that accepts pets and if they could be fostered if necessary once they have passed all the checks by the government ( rabies injection etc . )


In Poland they mostly stay with Polish families. How can anyone be cruel enough to tell them to get rid of their family pet they saved leaving everything else behind?


----------



## DogLover1981

This is quite dicey. A drone crash landed in Croatia, NATO territory.

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/europe/eu...-from-ukraine-raises-nato-concerns/ar-AAV5ByO


----------



## DogLover1981

If I lived in an area with a warm climate all year and I was near Ukraine, I would probably be volunteering to put up a bunch of tents and other makeshift dwellings for the refugees. An outdoor tent is not the nicest living arrangement but I would bet that many would prefer living in a tent over giving up their dogs and other pets. Already there are people choosing to live in their cars because of how expensive real estate is where I live.


----------



## Jesthar

DogLover1981 said:


> This is quite dicey. A drone crash landed in Croatia, NATO territory.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-xl/europe/eu...-from-ukraine-raises-nato-concerns/ar-AAV5ByO


That was nearly a week ago, and the main question is how it got to fly for an hour over NATO territory without being intercepted.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> In Poland they mostly stay with Polish families. How can anyone be cruel enough to tell them to get rid of their family pet they saved leaving everything else behind?


That's not what i said.


----------



## kimthecat

Thata not what I said . 
When refugees arrive in an emergency , they could be put up in temporary such as hotels or hostels , They can still bring their pets over . Fostering means looking after a pet until as such time the owners have a proper home . 

FYI in this country it is hard to find to find rented or housing accommodation that accepts pets .


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Thata not what I said .
> When refugees arrive in an emergency , they could be put up in temporary such as hotels or hostels , They can still bring their pets over . Fostering means looking after a pet until as such time the owners have a proper home .
> 
> FYI in this country it is hard to find to find rented or housing accommodation that accepts pets .


I agree but surely in refugees case an exception would be made after all the pets have gone thought hell as well.


----------



## DogLover1981

Interesting, anti-missile evasion tech. It does sound like the Russian military is getting rather desperate. They're using and as such, revealing sensitive technology in Ukraine. Exciting times for NATO intelligence, I imagine. I do wonder whether or not this discovery could make the Ukrainian defenses more effective.

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-deploys-mystery-munition-ukraine-114716254.html


----------



## Maurey

3dogs2cats said:


> It appears she has been fined, not sure if she will face further charges because it does seem strange that she hasn`t been given a prison sentence considering the law has been changed to allow up to 15yrs.


Her lawyers were unable to contact her yesterday. Hopefully she's still alive and well.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> That's not what i said.


I know! I just said it should be obvious they can take their pets.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> That was nearly a week ago, and the main question is how it got to fly for an hour over NATO territory without being intercepted.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...one-from-ukraine-raises-nato-defense-concerns

*Stray Soviet-Era Drone From Ukraine Raises NATO Concerns*


----------



## DogLover1981

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...one-from-ukraine-raises-nato-defense-concerns
> 
> *Stray Soviet-Era Drone From Ukraine Raises NATO Concerns*


I do wonder if they're closely examining that thing to see if there was some technology on it to avoid detection.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> If I lived in an area with a warm climate all year and I was near Ukraine, I would probably be volunteering to put up a bunch of tents and other makeshift dwellings for the refugees. An outdoor tent is not the nicest living arrangement but I would bet that many would prefer living in a tent over giving up their dogs and other pets. Already there are people choosing to live in their cars because of how expensive real estate is where I live.


This is Eastern and Central Europe which is extremely cold in winter. I'm still wearing thermal underwear plus a couple of thick sweaters. Where I live temperatures can be as low as minus 10C (14F).during the day. In summer the temperature can be 35+C (100F) Neither of which lend themselves to living in a tent for any length of time.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I agree but surely in refugees case an exception would be made after all the pets have gone thought hell as well.


I would hope so. but I would be able to take a small dog in if necessary but it would need organisation perhaps by a rescue. 
I dont have a spare room for people but like you we have a council bungalow near us that has been empty for two years and wonder why that is . It could be used for refugees.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> I wouldn't trust Putin to tell the truth if his life depended on it, let alone anyone elses.
> 
> And speaking of our unbeloved Stalin-wannabe, is it me, or does he seem to have dropped out of circulation in the last few days? We don't seem to have been subjected to any of his illogical ramblings in a while, anyway...


According to Politico he spoke to European Council Charles Michel yesterday.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503770031636856836


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Thank you! I had a total brain fart.
> 
> .


Sorry but i have to laugh at this. :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

Irpin, Ukraine. A Ukrainian refugee tries to comfort his dog, paralyzed by fear. The dog refuses to walk after a Russian shelling.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Irpin, Ukraine. A Ukrainian refugee tries to comfort his dog, paralyzed by fear. The dog refuses to walk after a Russian shelling.


Another heart-breaking picture, tears in my eyes again.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Another heart-breaking picture, tears in my eyes again.


Heartbreaking isn't it! It made me wonder how my own little Schnauzer boys would cope in a similar situation.


----------



## Boxer123

Magyarmum said:


> Heartbreaking isn't it! It made me wonder how my own little Schnauzer boys would cope in a similar situation.


I would have a torrid time with boxers I can't imagine what these people are going through trying to get their pets out.


----------



## Magyarmum

Boxer123 said:


> I would have a torrid time with boxers I can't imagine what these people are going through trying to get their pets out.


I would imagine a good percentage of those dogs and cats will end traumatised for a very long time after what they've been through.

Although it wasn't intentional I'm so pleased now I spent a lot of time exposing my two to a variety of different situations and loud noises. They're quite happy for a noisy tram or heavy vehicles passing within a few feet of them, but how they'd cope with bombs going off all around them I honestly don't know and hope I never have to find out.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> I would imagine a good percentage of those dogs and cats will end traumatised for a very long time after what they've been through.
> 
> Although it wasn't intentional I'm so pleased now I spent a lot of time exposing my two to a variety of different situations and loud noises. They're quite happy for a noisy tram or heavy vehicles passing within a few feet of them, *but how they'd cope with bombs going off all around them I honestly don't know and hope I never have to find out*.


I hope you never have to find out.


----------



## kimthecat

Ukrainian Refugees Can Bring Pets To UK Under New Rules, Announces Government | HuffPost UK Politics (huffingtonpost.co.uk)

Lord Goldsmith, the animal welfare minister, said on Tuesday emergency support would also make it easier for the refugees to bring their dogs, cats and other pets.

"As part of our new streamlined process, any animals which have already received some treatment may also have their stay in quarantine reduced and be returned back to their owner as soon as possible," he said.
The government will also be covering vaccination, microchipping and quarantine costs of the pets.

According to the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs (Defra), the maximum stay in quarantine for a pet which has received no rabies vaccination is four months.

The department added that pets would be considered on "a case by case basis", with a shortened quarantine period for those that are vaccinated

The government added that given the limited quarantine capacity, priority would be given to pets over animals being brought in for other reasons.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> According to Politico he spoke to European Council Charles Michel yesterday.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503770031636856836


He's been talking with other politicians, yes. But he doesn't seem to be making public statements any more, we only seem to be hearing other people's reports of what he has been saying.

Either that or I've missed the lot, it has been a busy week!


----------



## Maurey

The Financial Times has reported that Russia and Ukraine have made "significant progress" in talks. A 15-point plan is being discussed, which provides for a ceasefire and the withdrawal of troops. Hopefully this is as promising as it sounds.


----------



## Jesthar

Reports are coming in that a theatre with hundreds of civilians sheltering inside has been bombed in Mariupol. No word on the death and injury toll yet 

Also reports that civilian convoys leaving the city are coming under rocket attack.


----------



## Magyarmum

Posted by a Russian friend who lives in the Czech Republic.

Quick recap of Russian rhetoric about the war in Ukraine:
1. Russia did not attack Ukraine, but Ukraine needs to stop defending itself.
2. The special operation is not a war; economic sanctions are a war.
3. The special operation was started to avoid the start of war. This is why armed forces are being used.
4. Russian recruits were not sent to Ukraine, but some of them have died there.
5. The maternity ward in Mariupol was bombed because nationalists were there, dressed as pregnant women, and anyway it wasn't bombed.
6. The special operation is going according to plan, there is no resistance, but in two weeks they were only able to capture Kherson and surround Mariupol.
7. All Ukrainian military airplanes were destroyed by Russian bombs in the airports, but two weeks later Ukraine bombed Belarus.
8. It's ok to wish death to Ukrainians on Russian TV, but wishing death to Russian invaders is extremism.
9. Russian forces are fighting only with nationalists. All 40 million of them.


----------



## Beth78

Magyarmum said:


> Posted by a Russian friend who lives in the Czech Republic.
> 
> Quick recap of Russian rhetoric about the war in Ukraine:
> 1. Russia did not attack Ukraine, but Ukraine needs to stop defending itself.
> 2. The special operation is not a war; economic sanctions are a war.
> 3. The special operation was started to avoid the start of war. This is why armed forces are being used.
> 4. Russian recruits were not sent to Ukraine, but some of them have died there.
> 5. The maternity ward in Mariupol was bombed because nationalists were there, dressed as pregnant women, and anyway it wasn't bombed.
> 6. The special operation is going according to plan, there is no resistance, but in two weeks they were only able to capture Kherson and surround Mariupol.
> 7. All Ukrainian military airplanes were destroyed by Russian bombs in the airports, but two weeks later Ukraine bombed Belarus.
> 8. It's ok to wish death to Ukrainians on Russian TV, but wishing death to Russian invaders is extremism.
> 9. Russian forces are fighting only with nationalists. All 40 million of them.


Just a little contradiction there then 
Still alot of people belive it somehow.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> fashion? Really Russia being the epitome of a grand design?


I'd never thought of Russia as the cutting edge of fashion either - not sure what's on show at their fashion week.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Reports are coming in that a theatre with hundreds of civilians sheltering inside has been bombed in Mariupol. No word on the death and injury toll yet
> 
> Also reports that civilian convoys leaving the city are coming under rocket attack.






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=384164949842983


----------



## DogLover1981

Interesting article. I never really thought about that.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/putin-dictator-trap-russia-ukraine/627064/


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> Interesting article. I never really thought about that.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/putin-dictator-trap-russia-ukraine/627064/


This very true not only in politics but also in business etc… and when the tyrant is aging or sick they get really dangerous…
They can still be manipulated by those who can be so subtle that they think it all was their own idea…
Russia and China sign "friendship pledge no matter what " on 4th February 2022, army was already at Ukrainian frontier.
From that moment I expected the worst.


----------



## Nonnie

Anyone watched/listened to Arnies speech to the Russians? Its a good one (i am biased as ive been a fan since i was 9 and his motivational speech is one of the best things ive ever listened to).


----------



## Siskin

Nonnie said:


> Anyone watched/listened to Arnies speech to the Russians? Its a good one (i am biased as ive been a fan since i was 9 and his motivational speech is one of the best things ive ever listened to).


I agree, it's a powerful message. I do hope it gets seen by as many as possible in Russia and the soldiers in Ukraine.


----------



## Magyarmum

Putin gave a speech today in Moscow at the celebration of 8th anniversary of the annexation of Crimea.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...lt-on-ukraines-cities-continues-41462203.html

*Vladimir Putin praises Russian troops as assault on Ukraine's cities continues*


----------



## Maurey

Apparently talks are going well and they have meetings pretty much daily now. They’ve agreed on several points (Ukraine’s independence, Ukraine doesn’t joint NATO, primarily), and are hashing out the rest, according to local independent news.


----------



## Boxer123

Maurey said:


> Apparently talks are going well and they have meetings pretty much daily now. They've agreed on several points (Ukraine's independence, Ukraine doesn't joint NATO, primarily), and are hashing out the rest, according to local independent news.


I hope this works out. I don't understand how someone can be so evil to be bombing hospitals and maternity wards. It's been heartbreaking I can only see him escalating or agreeing to a deal that will help him save face.

What a hero the Ukraine President is. I can't help but wonder what our leader would have done ?


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> I hope this works out. I don't understand how someone can be so evil to be bombing hospitals and maternity wards. It's been heartbreaking I can only see him escalating or agreeing to a deal that will help him save face.
> 
> What a hero the Ukraine President is. I can't help but wonder what our leader would have done ?


Hidden in a fridge.


----------



## Boxer123

MollySmith said:


> Hidden in a fridge.


I think your right.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> I think your right.


But let's be honest, he's given all these oligarchs 30 days so he's more likely to found in a fridge in Russia.


----------



## DogLover1981

I think these negotiations between Russia and Ukraine are becoming a delay tactic. I do wonder if Putin is planning to do what he did in Syria with Ukraine. If I was a refugee fleeing Ukraine, I wouldn't feel safe returning home and rebuilding my life *unless* Ukraine became a part of NATO. The president of Ukraine is sending negative signals about it now but I imagine there will be a huge push to join NATO from the population of Ukraine as Putin has proven the need for it and they may even try to acquire nuclear weapons as may other countries in the region. Putin has created a really dangerous environment with his war, especially for himself and the people of Russia.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> I think these negotiations between Russia and Ukraine are becoming a delay tactic. I do wonder if Putin is planning to do what he did in Syria with Ukraine. If I was a refugee fleeing Ukraine, I wouldn't feel safe returning home and rebuilding my life *unless* Ukraine became a part of NATO. The president of Ukraine is sending negative signals about it now but I imagine there will be a huge push to join NATO from the population of Ukraine as Putin has proven the need for it and they may even try to acquire nuclear weapons as may other countries in the region. Putin has created a really dangerous environment with his war, especially for himself and the people of Russia.


Unless Putin is taken out I am very worried the peace talks are just bull.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Russians shot animals in a zoo near Kharkov. ://wyborcza.pl/7,177851,28235869,charkow-w-nocnym-ostrzale-zoo-zginely-dwa-orangutany-i-szympans.html
Why would anyone do that? It is just pure cruelty.

No fly zone would have helped.
Ukraine can't fight Russia alone.


----------



## DogLover1981

wow. Russian cosmonauts were wearing the colors of the Ukrainian flag on the space station. God knows what message, if any, was intended by that but they could get into serious trouble when they return back to earth.

https://www.theguardian.com/science...uts-board-iss-wearing-colours-of-ukraine-flag


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> wow. Russian cosmonauts were wearing the colors of the Ukrainian flag on the space station. God knows what message, if any, was intended by that but they could get into serious trouble when they return back to earth.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/science...uts-board-iss-wearing-colours-of-ukraine-flag


It reminds me the Russian joke about their astronauts going to live in the base on the Moon.
When they were to go the reporter asked if it would not be really hard to spend the entire life in a cold, barren, lifeless place?
They said it would be and thats why they rather go to the Moon.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Unless Putin is taken out I am very worried the peace talks are just bull.


You and me both! The peace talks are just a stalling tactic, whilst he regroups and reorganises his troops.

I often watch RT News on the TV and if they are to believed, the bombing of residential area, hospitals, schools and the theatre are a pack of lies. According to RT the Russians are a highly efficient, benevolent force welcomed by happy little Ukrainians to whom their "liberators" are giving humanitarian aid in the form of medicines and provisions.

As Bill Browder says " today's war-making is fueled by Putin's need to maintain power. "He's got to stay in power for the rest of his natural life," says Browder, "because if he loses power he'll end up going to jail, and losing all his money, and probably dying." Putin has held power for 22 years, and that's a long time to hold a clenched grip. "So he's doing what dictators do when they feel threatened with losing power," Browder says. "They start a war."

https://www.barrons.com/articles/putin-sanctions-bill-browder-51646267765

An interesting article, well worth reading which gives some insight into Putin's mentality.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/03/putin-kgb-history-war-ukraine-genocide-russia/

*What Putin's Past Says About Ukraine's Future*
*A historian speaks on how the Russian president's history helps explain his current mindset.*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Boxer123 said:


> I hope this works out. I don't understand how someone can be so evil to be bombing hospitals and maternity wards. It's been heartbreaking I can only see him escalating or agreeing to a deal that will help him save face.
> 
> What a hero the Ukraine President is. I can't help but wonder what our leader would have done ?


He wouldn't noticed, he'd be having a party in No.10


----------



## Happy Paws2

Ukraine President wants to talks face to face with Putin, but how can you talk to a mad man.


----------



## Siskin

Happy Paws2 said:


> Ukraine President wants to talks face to face with Putin, but how can you talk to a mad man.


And where would they meet?
Putin won't leave Russia unless it's a country that supports him and it won't be in Ukraine as he's at risk from snipers. 
Zelenskyy won't want to go to Russia or any of its supporting countries in case he gets killed.
Puts the ball in Putins park though


----------



## cheekyscrip

Putin is a madman yes, beyond reasoning so talks will do no more than they did before the war.

Face it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Fire fighters doing their bit, in tears again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60806091


----------



## Jesthar

So, Russia petitioned Canada to support a farcical Russian UN draft resolution regarding aid in Ukraine.

Before filing it in the bin where it belonged, Canada suggested a few edits:


----------



## cheekyscrip

My son-law plans to go all the way with supplies from Gibraltar and bring back a bus load of refugees.
They are sorting things now with government.
I offered to translate whatever needed.


----------



## DogLover1981

I'm reading some sad stuff from journalists. They're seeing a pretty strong hatred of Russians in Ukraine now. There is apparently travel and contacts between Russia and Ukraine and this war is ruining the relationships that some people had across the border, even with friends and family. Some of them are being told it's just "fake news" or similar when they say their cities are being destroyed. The impact of this war is going to last a long time. 

The hatred of Russians is unhealthy, IMO. Plenty of people in Russia willing to risk arrest and torture to protest this war and some are going even further than that.


----------



## MollySmith

I can’t bring myself to share any links but in case you were wondering ‘whatever happened to David Cameron?’ (Yes, you were…) he’s driving a truck to Poland apparent but not before milking social media in a photo op that would make Liz Truss look like this :Hungover


----------



## Jesthar

MollySmith said:


> I can't bring myself to share any links but in case you were wondering 'whatever happened to David Cameron?' (Yes, you were…) he's driving a truck to Poland apparent but not before milking social media in a photo op that would make Liz Truss look like this :Hungover


Could be worse. BoJo just compared Ukraine fighting for their existance to Britain voting for Brexit! :Wideyed


----------



## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> Could be worse. BoJo just compared Ukraine fighting for their existance to Britain voting for Brexit! :Wideyed


I hate to say this but you read my mind.  Just posted it on the other thread by @cheekyscrip


----------



## MollySmith

Oops eh.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> Could be worse. BoJo just compared Ukraine fighting for their existance to Britain voting for Brexit! :Wideyed


Another mad man


----------



## Happy Paws2

Some how or way Putin has got to be killed even if they have to bomb the Kremlin,


----------



## Cully

Boris Johnson reminds me of Colonel Blimp, the John(?) Lowe character who started sentences without knowing how they were going to end. Blustering his way through life.
Someone should gag him before he starts the next WW!!!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Cully said:


> Boris Johnson reminds me of Colonel Blimp, the John(?) Lowe character who started sentences without knowing how they were going to end. Blustering his way through life.
> *Someone should gag him *before starts the next WW!!!


I wish someone had done that years ago.


----------



## Siskin

Happy Paws2 said:


> Some how or way Putin has got to be killed even if they have to bomb the Kremlin,


Who's they?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Siskin said:


> Who's they?


Anyone in Europe who is brave enough to do it.


----------



## Siskin

Happy Paws2 said:


> Anyone in Europe who is brave enough to do it.


And hello world war three


----------



## Happy Paws2

Siskin said:


> And hello world war three


If things go on like this and Putin keeps using missiles like he did on Friday, we'll have WWIII whether we want it or not.


----------



## Cully

Siskin said:


> Who's they?


Maybe the Russians who have just cottoned on to what is really happening.


----------



## Siskin

Cully said:


> Maybe the Russians who have just cottoned on to what is really happening.


Would be better if they did rather then anyone else and the Russians do have form over revolutions and dispatching those ruling their country


----------



## Happy Paws2

I was just watching Ukraine's president address the Israel's parliament, that poor man was almost on his Knee's asking for help, we really can't just going on just token helping him, I've been in tears listening to him, it will be a hard heart if they going ignoring him.


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws2 said:


> I was just watching Ukraine's president address the Israel's parliament, that poor man was almost on his Knee's asking for help, we really can't just going on just token helping him, I've been in tears listening to him, it will be a hard heart if they going ignoring him.


We are supplying weapons and intelligence to help him fight back, the intelligence alone we are supplying goes beyond 'token gestures'.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stuaz said:


> We are supplying weapons and intelligence to help him fight back, the intelligence alone we are supplying goes beyond 'token gestures'.


Have you been watching the news!


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws2 said:


> Have you been watching the news!


Yes.


----------



## MollySmith

Interview with Beth Rigby (Sky) and Mikhail Khodorkovsky, an exiled Russian business man who also predicts the end in three scenarios (below).

Worth a watch but it's not an easy one.


----------



## DogLover1981

I think a third World War is unlikely and nuclear weapons are partially the reason why. Even Putin knows that a World War would eventually result in his country being destroyed.


----------



## cheekyscrip

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2022/03/europe/mariupol-maternity-hospital-attack/index.html
Ukrainian children will have no treatment at all.

My cousin in Ukraine has disabled daughter and she can't move.
Impossible for them to queue to the frontier.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> I think a third World War is unlikely and nuclear weapons are partially the reason why. Even Putin knows that a World War would eventually result in his country being destroyed.


Putin is mad.
He truly believes in return to Yalta agreements.
Russians en masse are proud of taking Crimea, of subdued Georgia.
They see it as a national success.
Not all of course, same as not all Germans were supporting NAZI.
I worked in Russia.
Been there and have Russian friends, even translate from Russian.
The mentality of Russian masses is very different.

They see it as perfectly natural to say to Sweden or Finland what they can do or not.
Or any other country.
Democracy, freedom or sovereignty is an alien concept.
It is really medieval.
But if you think of it - NEP lasted about 2I years and then they wanted Stalin!!!
Perestroika lasted even less…then was Putin…


----------



## Happy Paws2

DogLover1981 said:


> I think a third World War is unlikely and nuclear weapons are partially the reason why. Even Putin knows that a World War would eventually result in his country being destroyed.


I don't think his mind works like that, he just think he can do what he likes and it won't affect him.

If we don't stop him now, who's next.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think his mind works like that, he just think he can do what he likes and it won't affect him.
> 
> If we don't stop him now, who's next.


If he was a reasonable person then he would not ruin Ukraine and Russia.


----------



## Calvine

Maurey said:


> Apparently talks are going well


Really? Do they even bother with a cease-fire while the ''talks'' are taking place? Or do they just continue bombing the daylights out of Ukraine?


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> I'm reading some sad stuff from journalists. They're seeing a pretty strong hatred of Russians in Ukraine now. There is apparently travel and contacts between Russia and Ukraine and this war is ruining the relationships that some people had across the border, even with friends and family. Some of them are being told it's just "fake news" or similar when they say their cities are being destroyed. The impact of this war is going to last a long time.
> 
> The hatred of Russians is unhealthy, IMO. Plenty of people in Russia willing to risk arrest and torture to protest this war and some are going even further than that.


I can't say the hatred of Russia in Ukraine is unhealthy.
I think Russian hate of Ukraine is.
Obviously not everyone, but generally the Russians support , agree or accept this invasion.

Now they had huge celebration on anniversary of invasion in Crimea. Those crowds are there not under duress.

In Kherson 11 women were raped for hours, 5 survived. That is from Polish press.
Russians by now committed every war crime possible.
Local Russians often offer guidance and information for Russian army.

It is war and it will always affect innocent people on both sides. Russia, Putin started this war against sovereign country .


----------



## Happy Paws2

You can't talk to a twisted mind, Putin thinks he has the right to take Ukraine back one reason they are Russian speaking, many countries in the world speak English or Spanish so should we or Spain go into them and take them. 

The man has lost all reason, I just hope it's true his not well and hasn't long left in this world.

There are very few people I wish nasty things on, but I really wish this man would die, the sooner the better.


----------



## £54etgfb6

cheekyscrip said:


> Obviously not everyone, but generally the Russians support , agree or accept this invasion.


There is genuinely no way you can accurately survey the population of Russia whether they support the invasion of Ukraine and expect honest answers. I'm not going to reiterate the points made by myself and others on the thread regarding the circumstances Russian people live under and how they fear persecution for merely disagreeing with their government, but to assume that majority of Russians agree with or accept the war is completely ignoring said circumstances. When people answer something out of fear or manipulation, that is not an accurate answer.


----------



## cheekyscrip

bmr10 said:


> There is genuinely no way you can accurately survey the population of Russia whether they support the invasion of Ukraine and expect honest answers. I'm not going to reiterate the points made by myself and others on the thread regarding the circumstances Russian people live under and how they fear persecution for merely disagreeing with their government, but to assume that majority of Russians agree with or accept the war is completely ignoring said circumstances. When people answer something out of fear or manipulation, that is not an accurate answer.


I think it is more to do with relentless propaganda but not only.
I know that from Russian sources that the problem of removing Putin is also in this that he is very popular and his decisions are acceptable.
I know Russians here who are educated, who have access to all information, who are just ordinary people and they absolutely think Russia had to stop Ukraine joining NATO, had to get Crimea etc…
Same as very ordinary German people believed in Hitler.

Russian masses see Putin as a saviour who will restore Russia as world superpower.

It is not fear that gathers enthusiastic crowds.
Russians believe it is Ukraine's fault for resisting.
But come to that- Stalin in Yalta was given Poland, Hungary etc… countries by our Allies and USA, Britain, France saw nothing wrong to subject us to Soviet occupation?
Were we not sovereign, democratic countries who were exploited and terrorised till 1989?

I lived in Gdańsk in 1980ties… 
Russian army left Poland in 1992.

In 1994 Ukraine gave up all their nuclear weapons for peace with Russia.

Putin was elected.
Russia has cult of "tzar", father of the nation, saviour and Russians want what they controlled before 1989.

Putin will not stop until German frontier.

West can stop him or let him.


----------



## cheekyscrip

It is actually Russians who bluntly told me that Putin has support of the masses.
Russians who hate this war but know their country, go back and forth and are in the right place to know.

Told me how really naive the West is.
The will of the Russians is with Putin for many elections now…


He is seen as a hero by the masses.
Reliable as they might be any polls put that about 70% Russians agree with this war or “military operation “.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> It is actually Russians who bluntly told me that Putin has support of the masses.
> Russians who hate this war but know their country, go back and forth and are in the right place to know.
> 
> Told me how really naive the West is.
> The will of the Russians is with Putin for many elections now…
> 
> He is seen as a hero by the masses.
> Reliable as they might be any polls put that about 70% Russians agree with this war or "military operation ".


That's because they have been brain washed into believing, what ever he says is true. I think if he said black was white they would believe him.


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws2 said:


> If things go on like this and Putin keeps using missiles like he did on Friday, we'll have WWIII whether we want it or not.


*The sad thing is HP, we cannot start a war with Russia. If Putin is stupid enough to get us involved that will be a different story.*
*I's like to see ( if possible ) the S.A.S go in and take him out.*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's because they have been brain washed into believing, what ever he says is true. I think if he said black was white they would believe him.


Yes. But the most worrying part is that they believe Russia has rights to get Soviet empire back.
That they don't believe the former republics and satellite countries have rights to be independent.
This is the core of the problem. Putin is just the man for the job.
The invasion can only be stopped if they have no means to carry on.
Putin just say what they believe in.
They never accepted what happened in 1989 so it is not as if they changed their mind because got brainwashed.


----------



## daveos

Some really valid points written above people are not anti Russian but the opposition to putins invasion in Russia is in the minority he is still very popular and seen as some kind of hero.
I work with a Lithuanian lady at work and her partner is half Russian his thoughts are life was better under the old USSR everybody had jobs no rich and poor everybody equal, I was really shocked when he told me that I pointed out he was only 11 when they got their freedom in Lithuania but he is having none of it he says both sides as bad and Russia is the victim and standing up for itself.
The only way this would stop is if every person in Russia takes to the streets but it will never happen as said before he has majority support.
Western response has been pathetic yeah we are sending weapons and sharing intelligence but Russia should have been warned before 1 foot was stepped into Ukraine that it would not be tolerated and action would be taken.
Now we have 10 million refugees into Europe also part of Putins plan.


----------



## cheekyscrip

daveos said:


> Some really valid points written above people are not anti Russian but the opposition to putins invasion in Russia is in the minority he is still very popular and seen as some kind of hero.
> I work with a Lithuanian lady at work and her partner is half Russian his thoughts are life was better under the old USSR everybody had jobs no rich and poor everybody equal, I was really shocked when he told me that I pointed out he was only 11 when they got their freedom in Lithuania but he is having none of it he says both sides as bad and Russia is the victim and standing up for itself.
> The only way this would stop is if every person in Russia takes to the streets but it will never happen as said before he has majority support.
> Western response has been pathetic yeah we are sending weapons and sharing intelligence but Russia should have been warned before 1 foot was stepped into Ukraine that it would not be tolerated and action would be taken.
> Now we have 10 million refugees into Europe also part of Putins plan.


Absolutely agree.
After taking Crimea and no response green light to go on.
It will be Ukraine, then Moldova. Then Baltic States. Poland.
And the response will be the same - but we cannot get involved!!! Can't stop it because it means war with Russia and here we go.. Russian army gathered since November and what did the West do about it?


----------



## StormyThai

I hope that I am wrong...
But...the more I look into this sponsorship scheme that the government has set up, the more it looks like lip service so that they can say "Look we halped!"


I may be being cynical...and I hope I am, but it stinks a bit


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *The sad thing is HP, we cannot start a war with Russia. If Putin is stupid enough to get us involved that will be a different story.*
> *I's like to see ( if possible ) the S.A.S go in and take him out*.


Or The Foreign Legion might be better, they are much rougher and highly trained.


----------



## Siskin

Happy Paws2 said:


> Or The Foreign Legion might be better, they are much rougher and highly trained.


So are the SAS

Allegedly if Putin sends his troops into a NATO country then the west does get involved


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> Or The Foreign Legion might be better, they are much rougher and highly trained.


If Israel weren't neutral, Mossad would be my theoretical pick.

HOWEVER, personally I don't think taking Putin out like that would help. Rather, it would make things worse as it would 'prove' to those who believe in him that the 'West' hate Russia and will do anything to destroy it. You don't want to promote a man like that to martyr status if you can possibly avoid it.

IF Putin were to pop his clogs, then unless it were live on TV (and possibly even IF it were live on TV) and done by all his closest associates Julius Caeser style, then I'm pretty sure they'd still manage to blame the west for it somehow, even if it were his inner circle. There is too much leverage to be gained by rich Russians from being able to blame the west for everything. A bit like north Korea, where everything from food shortages to power cuts is routinely blamed by the everyday people on "hostile American action" (despite the US not having any direct military action involvement for decades), because that is what they are told by the state media.


----------



## £54etgfb6

cheekyscrip said:


> I think it is more to do with relentless propaganda but not only.
> I know that from Russian sources that the problem of removing Putin is also in this that he is very popular and his decisions are acceptable.
> I know Russians here who are educated, who have access to all information, who are just ordinary people and they absolutely think Russia had to stop Ukraine joining NATO, had to get Crimea etc…
> Same as very ordinary German people believed in Hitler.
> 
> Russian masses see Putin as a saviour who will restore Russia as world superpower.
> 
> It is not fear that gathers enthusiastic crowds.
> Russians believe it is Ukraine's fault for resisting.
> But come to that- Stalin in Yalta was given Poland, Hungary etc… countries by our Allies and USA, Britain, France saw nothing wrong to subject us to Soviet occupation?
> Were we not sovereign, democratic countries who were exploited and terrorised till 1989?
> 
> I lived in Gdańsk in 1980ties…
> Russian army left Poland in 1992.
> 
> In 1994 Ukraine gave up all their nuclear weapons for peace with Russia.
> 
> Putin was elected.
> Russia has cult of "tzar", father of the nation, saviour and Russians want what they controlled before 1989.
> 
> Putin will not stop until German frontier.
> 
> West can stop him or let him.


You may be right in that the majority of the Russian population have a positive opinion regarding Putin or it may be that half the population does, or a quarter, or less, etc. My post was not intended to say that you're incorrect, more so that I don't personally believe that the conditions in Russia permit honest opinions to be shared. I think any surveys on any political issue coming out of Russia will be very biased. Simply put, if someone were to ask me my opinion on my job I would be much less likely to be honest if I thought my views would have repercussions or find their way back to my manager!

Propaganda plays a large part as you say, yes. However, I think propaganda relies on fear for it to work. Fear of your country being invaded, culture destroyed, the economy collapsing, etc etc. Pushing forward the idea that a specific leader or tactic is essential for success requires an environment of fear of failure. On the other hand, for propaganda to prevail any dissenters must be silenced or suppressed. I think Russia relies heavily on the latter and I believe that this causes many Russians to fear discussing politics or the country at all. I have seen a video of two Russians being apprehended by police (link below). One opposed the invasion and one supported it yet both were detained. An environment where you are walking on eggshells, unsure what is the right thing to say for fear of prosecution is not conducive to fair, safe discussion regarding a war. An environment such as this is what allows propaganda to succeed as there is no room for open discussion whether that is agreement or disagreement. If a large portion of the population were brainwashed into supporting Putin I would not be that surprised due to these reasons.

Link (apologies if it has already been shared): https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-woman-protest-blank-sign-arrest-b2035270.html


----------



## Happy Paws2

Siskin said:


> So are the SAS


I know ,but I watch a TV programme some time ago and they had a completion between the two and the Legion left the SAS in their dust. I also seen TV programmes watching how they train both and the Legion training is a lot harder than the SAS.


----------



## Magyarmum

Siskin said:


> So are the SA
> 
> Allegedly if Putin sends his troops into a NATO country then the west does get involved


But they're not nearly as sexy! 

I used to know several Legionnaires because there was a detachment of them on Mayotte where I lived.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> Or The Foreign Legion might be better, they are much rougher and highly trained.


The last


bmr10 said:


> You may be right in that the majority of the Russian population have a positive opinion regarding Putin or it may be that half the population does, or a quarter, or less, etc. My post was not intended to say that you're incorrect, more so that I don't personally believe that the conditions in Russia permit honest opinions to be shared. I think any surveys on any political issue coming out of Russia will be very biased. Simply put, if someone were to ask me my opinion on my job I would be much less likely to be honest if I thought my views would have repercussions or find their way back to my manager!
> 
> Propaganda plays a large part as you say, yes. However, I think propaganda relies on fear for it to work. Fear of your country being invaded, culture destroyed, the economy collapsing, etc etc. Pushing forward the idea that a specific leader or tactic is essential for success requires an environment of fear of failure. On the other hand, for propaganda to prevail any dissenters must be silenced or suppressed. I think Russia relies heavily on the latter and I believe that this causes many Russians to fear discussing politics or the country at all. I have seen a video of two Russians being apprehended by police (link below). One opposed the invasion and one supported it yet both were detained. An environment where you are walking on eggshells, unsure what is the right thing to say for fear of prosecution is not conducive to fair, safe discussion regarding a war. An environment such as this is what allows propaganda to succeed as there is no room for open discussion whether that is agreement or disagreement. If a large portion of the population were brainwashed into supporting Putin I would not be that surprised due to these reasons.
> 
> Link (apologies if it has already been shared): https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-woman-protest-blank-sign-arrest-b2035270.html


 Yet Putin is in power because majority believe that they had better life before Gorbachev.
Which obviously was based on exploitation of other countries under Russian rule.
They are happy to carry on with that.
I have a Russian friend who living in Gibraltar so no fear etc… was brought up in now independent Moldova, her brother stationed in Poland.
She thinks it was a happy time for them.
What Polish or Moldovan thought about it she is happy to dismiss totally.
This is a very common mindset.
Not at all uncommon around the world and very much present in even a century ago in Western Europe.
This person who has this profile on fb lives safe, happy life, British passport, with all access to information and is very proud of Putin.
Some Russians here are less vocal for the fear of being criticised- but still sympathetic to Russian military operation.
So polls will be inaccurate the other way.
Ethnic minorities in Russia - that is another story.


----------



## daveos

The way the war in is going there will be no Ukraine left Russias army is stalling not made any significant gains so they will now blow all the cities to bits using illegal weapons, Guess he will authorise chlorine bombs like he did in Syria and we will still stand back and condemn.
We should have gone in and defended Ukraine I'm sure with a display of Western power it would have called Putins bluff yeah we know he has nukes blah blah blah but so do we its called a deterrent for a reason.


----------



## cheekyscrip

daveos said:


> The way the war in is going there will be no Ukraine left Russias army is stalling not made any significant gains so they will now blow all the cities to bits using illegal weapons, Guess he will authorise chlorine bombs like he did in Syria and we will still stand back and condemn.
> We should have gone in and defended Ukraine I'm sure with a display of Western power it would have called Putins bluff yeah we know he has nukes blah blah blah but so do we its called a deterrent for a reason.


I have heard that his generals are not in favour of nukies.
If Moscow and St Peter were hit not much left.
Ethnic minorities, Siberia - only fear keep them there.
Belarusian army not at all happy to die for Putin.


----------



## daveos

cheekyscrip said:


> I have heard that his generals are not in favour of nukies.
> If Moscow and St Peter were hit not much left.
> Ethnic minorities, Siberia - only fear keep them there.
> Belarusian army not at all happy to die for Putin.


Exactly nobody in the right mind would really ever want to use a nuclear bomb no matter how crazy they are if they launched at us we would do the same back and like you say Russia would be a wasteland.
I read about some Belarussian soldiers going to fight for Ukraine good on them for doing the right thing, Im sure his generals are really pissed off with his invasion and the amount of loses they have pity they do not publish the figures to the Russian population this will be worse than Afghanistan was for them.
I also noticed that he used a lot of soldiers ethnic Siberians in this war I guess they don't matter as much as his White soldiers also explains why he is now using Syrian fighters they don't matter to him.
I really think he expected his army to be welcomed into Ukraine with minimum opposition how wrong was he.


----------



## cheekyscrip

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...-to-be-redrawn/why-china-will-reclaim-siberia
While Putin dreams of Great Russia and China promises support…
Russian rule over Siberia is only 150 old and they did their best to erase the local culture, languages, lifestyle…

This is why some Russians are so desperate about this war and think it will be the ruin of Russia.
They see that Putin was outsmarted already and there will be only one winner…[/QUOTE]


----------



## Nonnie

daveos said:


> nobody in the right mind would really ever want to use a nuclear bomb


They have already been used in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

I have no doubts that Putin would happily launch one.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Nonnie said:


> They have already been used in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
> 
> I have no doubts that Putin would happily launch one.


Maybe not so easy. Needs top army chiefs to let him.
Use it on Ukraine - but he is saving them!
Use it on the West? We have them too.. and only two targets in Russia…
Putin engaged in war in Europe… China moves to Siberia…


----------



## Nonnie

cheekyscrip said:


> Maybe not so easy. Needs top army chiefs to let him.
> Use it on Ukraine - but he is saving them!
> Use it on the West? We have them too.. and only two targets in Russia…
> Putin engaged in war in Europe… China moves to Siberia…


If he could, i think he would. I dont tink he cares about the long term. Mans deranged.

I think he just wants to leave behind some legacy that will go down in the history books. Everyone remembers the bad guys after all.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Nonnie said:


> If he could, i think he would. I dont tink he cares about the long term. Mans deranged.
> 
> I think he just wants to leave behind some legacy that will go down in the history books. Everyone remembers the bad guys after all.


He is mad. If those close to him think he is too mad…
The army big bosses might be worried already….
That war will leave Russia dependent on China….
If China was to move on Siberia Russia might not have many mates left…nor resources…
China needs Siberia.


----------



## Jesthar

Nonnie said:


> If he could, i think he would. I dont tink he cares about the long term. Mans deranged.
> 
> I think he just wants to leave behind some legacy that will go down in the history books. Everyone remembers the bad guys after all.


He is quite like Hitler, in that regard.

However, he is not stupid - the life expectancy of a dumb dictator is pretty short. If he wants to keep up the 'liberating hero of the downtrodden Nazi-ruled desparate-to-be-Russian masses' claptrap he can't really afford to launch a nuke at Ukraine, and to launch one at anyone else at the moment would be an utterly mad move. And psychopathic as he definitely is, I don't think he's utterly mad.

And hopefully his generals definitely aren't, and will refuse to carry out the orders anyway. There are very, very few people who are truly willing to watch the world burn.


----------



## Magyarmum

daveos said:


> Exactly nobody in the right mind would really ever want to use a nuclear bomb no matter how crazy they are if they launched at us we would do the same back and like you say Russia would be a wasteland.
> I read about some Belarussian soldiers going to fight for Ukraine good on them for doing the right thing, Im sure his generals are really pissed off with his invasion and the amount of loses they have pity they do not publish the figures to the Russian population this will be worse than Afghanistan was for them.
> I also noticed that he used a lot of soldiers ethnic Siberians in this war I guess they don't matter as much as his White soldiers also explains why he is now using Syrian fighters they don't matter to him.
> I really think he expected his army to be welcomed into Ukraine with minimum opposition how wrong was he.


I know for a fact that 5 Russian generals have lost their lives in Ukraine. The fifth death was announced on yesterday's Russian state television news which I watched. No figures have been given about other losses but I understand the Ukrainian government have given a figure of around 14,000 Russian soldiers killed.


----------



## Siskin

From what I understand the use of nuclear weapons from ground troops has to go through quite a procedure before it’s permitted use. In the past (1983) a Russian general refused orders to go nuclear because he was convinced that the threatened launch from the US was not actually happening and was a glitch in the system. He was right. We were very close to a nuclear conflict then.
However subs that carry nuclear don’t have the same controls and checks for launch and could be released on Putins direct order


----------



## daveos

Nuclear weapons were used in Japan but only because one side had them if Japan could have done the same to USA the USA would not have done in its called mutual destruction.
Putins generals and top aides all have family and friends throughout Russia and they love there country they would not let it be destroyed the same as we would not.
Launching a Nuke is not just pressing a button every country has protocol that must be followed so I'm sure somebody would stop him.
Reading reports today USA estimates that 1000 Russian personal were killed on average a day last week and they have lost a lot of hardware tanks armoured vehicles etc not to mention the cost financially I bet more than 1 general has Putin in their sight.
It will be the Ordinary Russians who will suffer when the rouble becomes worthless a joke currency savings will equal nothing they will never get that money back, No food in shops back to queuing for bread again No foreign holidays but this is the new Russia if only they knew.


----------



## daveos

cheekyscrip said:


> He is mad. If those close to him think he is too mad…
> The army big bosses might be worried already….
> That war will leave Russia dependent on China….
> If China was to move on Siberia Russia might not have many mates left…nor resources…
> China needs Siberia.


Correct Russia will become a colony off China, China will take Siberia in return for bailing out Russia and take alll those resources they have say hello to a new master mr Putin
you were right about a new empire you will be joining the Chinese one.


----------



## Magyarmum

daveos said:


> Correct Russia will become a colony off China, China will take Siberia in return for bailing out Russia and take alll those resources they have say hello to a new master mr Putin
> you were right about a new empire you will be joining the Chinese one.


I don't agree. China has more to lose than it has to gain by aligning itself to Russia over Ukraine.

This article from the Breugel Organisation explains better than I can.

https://www.bruegel.org/2022/03/six...n-increasingly-unattractive-option-for-china/

*Six reasons why backstopping Russia is an increasingly unattractive option for China*

Another article well worth reading by the Atlantic Council written in December last year

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...of-ukraine-could-be-vladimir-putins-downfall/

*A Russian Invasion of Ukraine could be Vladimir Putin's Downfall.*


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Or The Foreign Legion might be better, they are much rougher and highly trained.


Send in Villenelle from Killing Eve. She'd stick knives in his eyes and cut off his bits and pieces. !


----------



## MollySmith

*How to fact check Russian invasion of Ukraine*

A new website is trying to cut through mistruths. It's called ukrainefacts.org, and is a collaborative project from the International Fact-Checking Network Signatories. The initiative brings together the work of 120 fact-checking organisations in dozens of countries around the world, all of which cover stories and images not just circulating through Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok but also on news sites.

The website has apparently fact-checked* more than 600 things so far, *including claims that years-old images of conflict in Lebanon and Nigeria are from Ukraine.

Also *Fact Checker* (which also is useful for Covid and Brexit, crime, law, UK Government and MPs from all parties... loads of stuff, and really useful.

https://fullfact.org/news/ukraine/

Apologies if I sound a bit handwringing! PF pops up on Google and we should be mindful that there is a war playing out on social media as much as on the ground and checking what we share first is important. Careless talk costs lives


----------



## Jesthar

daveos said:


> Nuclear weapons were used in Japan but only because one side had them if Japan could have done the same to USA the USA would not have done in its called mutual destruction.


I honestly don't think that was the logic then. The US already had pretty much complete control of the skies over Japan (and the only way Japan ever caused casualties on the US mainland was with a balloon bomb, they never got close to aircraft range), and was bombing cities pretty much at will with incendiaries. However, Japan was not going to surrender easily even though they were clearly in a no-win situaiton by then - the island hopping campaign had already shown that the defenders would fight to the death (and take as many of the enemy wih them as possible) even when it was a lost cause on an island that wasn't originally theirs. If the US had to invade the Japanese mainland, it was going to be an absolute bloodbath on both sides - I believe they projected millions of dead. Dropping the atomic bombs was an attempt to avoid needing a mainland invasion, or (as an alternative) doing a Dresden to most of Japan. Yes, it was awful, but as far as anyone could tell, so were the alternatives... 

Also, although radiation sickness was known about by that time, no-one really knew the true effect and long term consequences at that point of using nuclear weapons, given that one had never been used before.


----------



## DogLover1981

Jesthar said:


> He is quite like Hitler, in that regard.
> 
> However, he is not stupid - the life expectancy of a dumb dictator is pretty short. If he wants to keep up the 'liberating hero of the downtrodden Nazi-ruled desparate-to-be-Russian masses' claptrap he can't really afford to launch a nuke at Ukraine, and to launch one at anyone else at the moment would be an utterly mad move. And psychopathic as he definitely is, I don't think he's utterly mad.
> 
> And hopefully his generals definitely aren't, and will refuse to carry out the orders anyway. There are very, very few people who are truly willing to watch the world burn.


One problem with using nuclear weapons for Putin and his generals is that they have no way of knowing what classified technology US, Europe and NATO has at their disposal. There could some classified compartmentalized top secret weapon out there to deflect and/or shoot down nuclear weapons. In other words, if they used nuclear weapons, Russia could become a nuclear wasteland while Europe and rest of the world is spared of such a fate. O.O


----------



## DogLover1981

Additionally, the location of Putin's mansions and such are somewhat of public knowledge and there's probably even more known by intelligence agencies. Another worry for Putin if he were to start a nuclear war.


----------



## DogLover1981

On another note, I did read a little into how Hungary is handling this. The people of Hungary and their leader are taking some great risks by not distancing themselves even more from Russia and Putin. Who knows what direction this war could go, how long it'll last, there are reports that this war could get really ugly and violent and as such, it could turn into a diplomatic mess for them in the days, weeks and months to come. All these boycotts and everything against Russia and Belarus could soon start including Hungary. Already, I'd specifically avoid Hungary if I was a tourist visiting Europe. O.O

Edit: Additionally, Hungary is likely to suffer some economic damage, perhaps really serious, from having a war raging right next door because of Putin. Possibly even some accidental spillover of the war too like the drones for example. I'm not sure why anyone in Hungary would have sort of affection for Putin at this point.


----------



## Jesthar

DogLover1981 said:


> Additionally, the location of Putin's mansions and such are somewhat of public knowledge and there's probably even more known by intelligence agencies. Another worry for Putin if he were to start a nuclear war.


If things went nuclear, I think the last thing he'd be worrying about is the state of his mansions 

As an aside, wouldn't it be rather entertaining to confiscate a few of them and use them to house Ukrainian refugees


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> On another note, I did read a little into how Hungary is handling this. The people of Hungary and their leader are taking some great risks by not distancing themselves even more from Russia and Putin. Who knows what direction this war could go, how long it'll last, there are reports that this war could get really ugly and violent and as such, it could turn into a diplomatic mess for them in the days, weeks and months to come. All these boycotts and everything against Russia and Belarus could soon start including Hungary. Already, I'd specifically avoid Hungary if I was a tourist visiting Europe. O.O


Yes. Orban! Ultra right.
I hope now Polish government will stop with this anti EU malarkey as one thing is sure Poland is not pro Putin.
For once Polish agree on something!!!
I wonder how the election will go in Hungary soon enough.,


----------



## Jesthar

Never thought I'd see this!










That is heads of Jewish, muslim, Christian and Druze groups praying together for peace outside the compound of the Russian Orthodox Church in Moscow Square, Jerusalem...

Quite an achievement, Putin!


----------



## stuaz

While nuclear war is always a concern when a mad man is backed into a corner and has his finger on the button, the real risk would come from more conventional bombs. 

There is a reason the Russians routinely test NATO defence response in the North Sea. 

The RAF, while very capable, simply do not have the aircraft to protect skies over the whole country, presuming also that we send some fighters over to mainland Europe as well, then the situation back home gets even worse. 

We would be able to stop a couple of missiles but we would not stop them all. We would be overwhelmed. The Russians would simply aim for the bases that act as “our eyes” and make us blind further hurting our early warning system. 

Even if you combine Royal Navy ships in the defence of the skies above the UK it still not provide a good enough coverage. They would also most likely use submarine launched missiles as well with the sub “popping up” and firing and then going back under, to then pop up again and fire making it very hard to track. 

We also have put all our eggs in one basket with our forces as well, take out the submarine base in Scotland and our subs are then in trouble, we also concentrate a lot of our fighter planes in the same bases. The same bases that also got rid of the Cold War era bomb proof shelters and storage areas..

And don’t get me started on the general public! The majority of the UK does not have any form of evacuation or early warning alert system, most bomb shelters outside of government facilities in London are non existent. 

Being an island nation we rely heavily on imports. So Russia would just target our main ports to cause wide spread shortages and we know how the British public handles shortages that aren’t even real (toilet paper and petrol) so civil unrest is likely to follow quickly when faced with actual shortages.

It sounds bleak but I think it’s worth keeping some of these things in mind when asking for “boots on the ground” or “no fly zones”. Russia doesn’t need to use Nuclear bombs to cause problems in the UK.

While the Ukraine Russia war has shown holes in there military capabilities, they should not be underestimated.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> While nuclear war is always a concern when a mad man is backed into a corner and has his finger on the button, the real risk would come from more conventional bombs.
> 
> There is a reason the Russians routinely test NATO defence response in the North Sea.
> 
> The RAF, while very capable, simply do not have the aircraft to protect skies over the whole country, presuming also that we send some fighters over to mainland Europe as well, then the situation back home gets even worse.
> 
> We would be able to stop a couple of missiles but we would not stop them all. We would be overwhelmed. The Russians would simply aim for the bases that act as "our eyes" and make us blind further hurting our early warning system.
> 
> Even if you combine Royal Navy ships in the defence of the skies above the UK it still not provide a good enough coverage. They would also most likely use submarine launched missiles as well with the sub "popping up" and firing and then going back under, to then pop up again and fire making it very hard to track.
> 
> We also have put all our eggs in one basket with our forces as well, take out the submarine base in Scotland and our subs are then in trouble, we also concentrate a lot of our fighter planes in the same bases. The same bases that also got rid of the Cold War era bomb proof shelters and storage areas..
> 
> And don't get me started on the general public! The majority of the UK does not have any form of evacuation or early warning alert system, most bomb shelters outside of government facilities in London are non existent.
> 
> Being an island nation we rely heavily on imports. So Russia would just target our main ports to cause wide spread shortages and we know how the British public handles shortages that aren't even real (toilet paper and petrol) so civil unrest is likely to follow quickly when faced with actual shortages.
> 
> It sounds bleak but I think it's worth keeping some of these things in mind when asking for "boots on the ground" or "no fly zones". Russia doesn't need to use Nuclear bombs to cause problems in the UK.
> 
> While the Ukraine Russia war has shown holes in there military capabilities, they should not be underestimated.


Neither feared so much. Attack on UK means attack on NATO.
Russia is unable to do that successfully. 
1939 - same story.
G
Governments are only interested in winning next election.


----------



## Maurey

According to independent news, the war has been at a stalemate for at least a couple days now, with neither side giving ground, which has been aiding in the progression of negotiations, supposedly. Rough translation of a news post from today. I hope this ends without too much leeway given to Putin for his actions. At the same time, if it means long term peace (which I can only hope it will), it may be for the best. I don’t see a way other than an agreement between Putin and Zelensky without a force major, which may well end with more conflict and death. I think we all just want this conflict over, first and foremost.


“The final decision on the compromises that Russia and Ukraine will reach in the negotiations will be made at an all-Ukrainian referendum. President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky stated this in an interview with the National Public Television and Radio Company of Ukraine.

“According to Zelensky, they are talking about compromises regarding security guarantees for Ukraine, as well as Donbass and Crimea:

“”I explained to all negotiating groups: when you talk about all these changes, and they can be historical, we will not go anywhere, we will come to a referendum. The people will have to say and give an answer to certain formats of compromises. But what they will be is already a matter of our conversation and understanding between Ukraine and Russia. Therefore, in any case, I am ready to do anything if this path of mine is with our people.
Negotiations between Russia and Ukraine began on February 28, the fourth day of the Russian invasion. The first few rounds of negotiations were held in person in Belarus, then the parties continued the discussion via video link.”

“Among Russia's demands for Ukraine are a neutral status (implying the rejection of the aspiration to join NATO), "demilitarization" and "denazification". Russia also demands that Ukraine recognize Crimea as Russian, and the self-proclaimed DPR and LPR as independent.

“On March 18, the head of the Russian delegation at the talks, aide to the President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Medinsky, said that the parties "brought their positions as close as possible" regarding the neutral status of Ukraine.

“According to Medinsky, Ukraine offers "an Austrian, Swedish version of a neutral demilitarized state" with its own army and navy.”


----------



## Cully

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60830013


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> On another note, I did read a little into how Hungary is handling this. The people of Hungary and their leader are taking some great risks by not distancing themselves even more from Russia and Putin. Who knows what direction this war could go, how long it'll last, there are reports that this war could get really ugly and violent and as such, it could turn into a diplomatic mess for them in the days, weeks and months to come. All these boycotts and everything against Russia and Belarus could soon start including Hungary. Already, I'd specifically avoid Hungary if I was a tourist visiting Europe. O.O
> 
> Edit: Additionally, Hungary is likely to suffer some economic damage, perhaps really serious, from having a war raging right next door because of Putin. Possibly even some accidental spillover of the war too like the drones for example. I'm not sure why anyone in Hungary would have sort of affection for Putin at this point.


What a bizarre post which shows how little you know about Eastern/Central Europe and Hungary in particular. Not only that the post detracts from the topic which is "Russia and Ukraine"

Why would the sanctions against Russia be imposed on Hungary when it supports the sanctions imposed by the EU on Russia, The only thing Hungary disagreed with,alongside Germany and I believe Bulgaria were sanctions on gas and oil on which Hungary as with most other EU countries is highly dependent on.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/network-roundup-eu-split-on-russian-oil-and-gas-ban/

You obviously don't realise that until they redeemed themselves by taking in so many refugees, Poland as well as Hungary was known as one of the "bad boys" of the EU

https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-goes-from-zero-to-hero-in-eu-thanks-to-ukraine-effort/

Hungary to date Has taken in nearly 350,000 refugees from Ukraine and thousands of ordinary Hungarians have welcomed them into their homes. Whilst Hungary has refused to give weapons to Ukraine the government has provided substantial amounts of medical equipment and supplies as well as provisions to Ukraine and will continue to do so, Don't forget there are some 156,000 ethnic Hungarians living the Transcarpathian region of Ukraine and one of the fears is that they could be targeted.

http://www.nouvelle-europe.eu/node/1951#:~:text=Today the Hungarian minority in,a half of the population.

Why are drones or missiles any more likely to land in Hungary than they are in say Slovakia or Poland or Romania? I don't understand your logic

Hungarians certainly don't have any "affection" for Putin as you seem to think. Too many Hungarians still remember what it was like living under Russian rule and have no desire for history to repeat itself.

https://bbj.hu/budapest/culture/his...porary-stationing-of-soviet-troops-in-hungary

As a Brit living in Hungary I'm in no way blind to the politics of the country. Hungary in some ways has the same problem as the UK where there is no strong alternative to the present government. It is however slowly starting to alter as hopefully the forthcoming elections will show.

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/authoritarian-ties-case-russia-and-hungary


----------



## DogLover1981

Magyarmum said:


> What a bizarre post which shows how little you know about Eastern/Central Europe and Hungary in particular. Not only that the post detracts from the topic which is "Russia and Ukraine"
> 
> Why would the sanctions against Russia be imposed on Hungary when it supports the sanctions imposed by the EU on Russia, The only thing Hungary disagreed with,alongside Germany and I believe Bulgaria were sanctions on gas and oil on which Hungary as with most other EU countries is highly dependent on.
> 
> https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/network-roundup-eu-split-on-russian-oil-and-gas-ban/
> 
> You obviously don't realise that until they redeemed themselves by taking in so many refugees, Poland as well as Hungary was known as one of the "bad boys" of the EU
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-goes-from-zero-to-hero-in-eu-thanks-to-ukraine-effort/
> 
> Hungary to date Has taken in nearly 350,000 refugees from Ukraine and thousands of ordinary Hungarians have welcomed them into their homes. Whilst Hungary has refused to give weapons to Ukraine the government has provided substantial amounts of medical equipment and supplies as well as provisions to Ukraine and will continue to do so, Don't forget there are some 156,000 ethnic Hungarians living the Transcarpathian region of Ukraine and one of the fears is that they could be targeted.
> 
> http://www.nouvelle-europe.eu/node/1951#:~:text=Today the Hungarian minority in,a half of the population.
> 
> Why are drones or missiles any more likely to land in Hungary than they are in say Slovakia or Poland or Romania? I don't understand your logic
> 
> Hungarians certainly don't have any "affection" for Putin as you seem to think. Too many Hungarians still remember what it was like living under Russian rule and have no desire for history to repeat itself.
> 
> https://bbj.hu/budapest/culture/his...porary-stationing-of-soviet-troops-in-hungary
> 
> As a Brit living in Hungary I'm in no way blind to the politics of the country. Hungary in some ways has the same problem as the UK where there is no strong alternative to the present government. It is however slowly starting to alter as hopefully the forthcoming elections will show.
> 
> https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/authoritarian-ties-case-russia-and-hungary


Your post is interesting, in a positive way.  You make some good points that I hadn't really thought about. Admittedly, I don't know a super good amount of detail about Hungary but I have read about it.


----------



## DogLover1981

I think the biggest problem for Putin is that he has no idea what classified tech exists at Area 51 and elsewhere within the USA and NATO that could be used for defense. If he were to push buttons or really escalate the war or use nuclear weapons, it's really uncharted waters. It's for this reason, he may be quite hesitant.


----------



## DogLover1981

I still find it unreal that there's a full scale war in a part of Europe and it has been ongoing for almost a month now. It's hard to absorb. Years ago, I would've never guessed about this happening. I do remember bits and pieces of the conflict in the 1990s but I tend to think the war in Ukraine is on a completely different scale.


----------



## Magyarmum

I was totally gobsmacked yesterday evening watching this interview by CNN's Christiane Amanpour with Dmitry Peskov one of Putin's closest associates. According to Peskov the western media are lying through their back teeth and only Russia is telling the truth.

It's 28 minutes long but gives a good idea of the thinking inside the Kremlin.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2022/03/22/amanpour-kremlin-spokesperson-dmitry-peskov.cnn


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> I was totally gobsmacked yesterday evening watching this interview by CNN's Christiane Amanpour with Dmitry Peskov one of Putin's closest associates. According to Peskov the western media are lying through their back teeth and only Russia is telling the truth.
> 
> It's 28 minutes long but gives a good idea of the thinking inside the Kremlin.
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2022/03/22/amanpour-kremlin-spokesperson-dmitry-peskov.cnn


Totally in denial, or brainwashed; or both. Did you spot halfway through, he said ''Putin is crazy . . . '', then quickly corrected it to ''Putin is _angry _with the Ukrainians . . . ''.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Totally in denial, or brainwashed; or both. Did you spot halfway through, he said ''Putin is crazy . . . '', then quickly corrected it to ''Putin is _angry _with the Ukrainians . . . ''.


I think his trying to prove that he can put the USSR back together and to get his name into history as a great leader. Well he'll get his name in history alright but not for the reason he's hoping for.

All his thinking of is himself and how great he is and he's surrounded by other power grabbing people just like Hitler and look how the normal people loved him.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Totally in denial, or brainwashed; or both. Did you spot halfway through, he said ''Putin is crazy . . . '', then quickly corrected it to ''Putin is _angry _with the Ukrainians . . . ''.


No I didn't spot that. I listened totally stunned that anyone could believe such c**p.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Magyarmum said:


> I was totally gobsmacked yesterday evening watching this interview by CNN's Christiane Amanpour with Dmitry Peskov one of Putin's closest associates. According to Peskov the western media are lying through their back teeth and only Russia is telling the truth.
> 
> It's 28 minutes long but gives a good idea of the thinking inside the Kremlin.
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2022/03/22/amanpour-kremlin-spokesperson-dmitry-peskov.cnn


Every time I see Peskov on the tv I have the urge to punch the screen, he just has a face that I want to bloody punch!


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> No I didn't spot that. I listened totally stunned that anyone could believe such c**p.


Yes, it was about halfway through - maybe slightly further. But watching him and listening, was bizarre. He looked as though he was maybe wearing a listening device and repeating what someone was saying to him (I know he wasn't, but his face was so totally expressionless, despite what he was being asked).
ETA: It's at 14.53 on the video.


----------



## kimthecat

Kenny Everett at the Conservative Party Conference in 1983 with the giant hands saying lets bomb Russia . Maybe he had the right idea . :Wideyed


----------



## white_shadow

.




.


----------



## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> I think the biggest problem for Putin is that he has no idea what classified tech exists at Area 51 and elsewhere within the USA and NATO that could be used for defense. If he were to push buttons or really escalate the war or use nuclear weapons, it's really uncharted waters. It's for this reason, he may be quite hesitant.


Reminds me of people talking about UFOs being aliens. I think a far more likely and more simple explanation is that they're top secret military aircraft. There's a reason that there is some strange sightings in the sky near Area 51, especially at night. lol


----------



## DogLover1981

Up to 15,000 Russian solders have been killed and six high ranking military officials have been killed so far. Apparently losing high ranking officials is highly unusual in the modern world.


----------



## DogLover1981

Possibly carelessness and it's likely leading to an intelligence bonanza for Ukraine and NATO. Advanced jamming (and everything else) electronics system found by the Ukraine military. I did read that some volunteers in the Ukraine military are highly skilled in electronics and computers.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...iner-left-behind-by-russian-forces/ar-AAVpwWK


----------



## Magyarmum

white_shadow said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


There are many organisations helping to get pets out of Ukraine and receiving countries such as Hungary have eased many of the regulations for entry. One of the problems though is that Ukraine has one of, if not, the highest incidence of Rabies in Europe.

https://www.vettimes.co.uk/news/ukraines-eu-neighbours-waive-pet-restrictions-amid-war-exodus/

https://donate.four-paws.org/s/ukra...gQ8iVdZvn8ZBghkkiUsppzUW6GtCknDFd77r-uN26CfjU

https://medicine.dp.ua/index.php/me...country,the conducting of preventive measures.


----------



## DogLover1981

Magyarmum said:


> One of the problems though is that Ukraine has one of, if not, the highest incidence of Rabies in Europe.


A possible fix for that might be for the authorities to require that the dogs get a rabies booster upon/during entry. A mobile vet clinic might even work.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> A possible fix for that might be for the authorities to require that the dogs get a rabies booster upon/during entry. A mobile vet clinic might even work.


https://www.ifaw.org/eu/news/resources-flee-ukraine-pets

*helpful information for people fleeing Ukraine with their pets*


----------



## Magyarmum

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.ifaw.org/eu/news/resources-flee-ukraine-pets
> 
> *helpful information for people fleeing Ukraine with their pets*


Just to add ....

*Rabies Vaccination*
An animal can be considered immunized within 28 days after initial vaccination, when a peak rabies virus antibody titer is reached. An animal is considered currently vaccinated and immunized if the initial vaccination was administered at least 28 days previously or booster vaccinations have been administered in accordance with recommendations. Because a rapid anamnestic response is expected, an animal is considered currently vaccinated immediately after a booster vaccination.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Yes, it was about halfway through - maybe slightly further. But watching him and listening, was bizarre. He looked as though he was maybe wearing a listening device and repeating what someone was saying to him (I know he wasn't, but his face was so totally expressionless, despite what he was being asked).
> ETA: It's at 14.53 on the video.


I've been out all day and only just got back.

Got it! Yup he definitely said "Putin's crazy" before correcting himself.

Freudian slip perhaps?


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> I've been out all day and only just got back.
> 
> Got it! Yup he definitely said "Putin's crazy" before correcting himself.
> 
> Freudian slip perhaps?


 Yes, it was weird: he said ''Putin's angry with . . . and he's angry at . . . and then after saying angry a few times said ''crazy'' and quickly corrected himself. Strange guy, very expressionless face, no expression whatever he was saying. And certainly delusional. Is he a Kremlin spokesman or what? It's not a job I would want.


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Yes, it was weird: he said ''Putin's angry with . . . and he's angry at . . . and then after saying angry a few times said ''crazy'' and quickly corrected himself. Strange guy, very expressionless face, no expression whatever he was saying. And certainly delusional. Is he a Kremlin spokesman or what? It's not a job I would want.


The media are just as absurd. Apparently the russian news channels have finally been showing footage of destroyed cities (presumably because enough videos are sneaking past the attempts to ban all western media and doing the rounds internally they can no longer ignore them), but claiming the damage is being done by Ukranian nationalists "as they retreat"

You have to wonder how they can spout this stuff with a straight face...


----------



## DogLover1981

It's amusing how much the Russian invasion is affecting everything. People are refusing to refuel this giant yacht owned by a former KGB agent leaving the crew stranded. lol He's not even sanctioned or anything and yet people still don't want anything to do with the yacht.

https://news.yahoo.com/captain-russian-oligarchs-85-million-143621134.html


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> The media are just as absurd. Apparently the russian news channels have finally been showing footage of destroyed cities (presumably because enough videos are sneaking past the attempts to ban all western media and doing the rounds internally they can no longer ignore them), but claiming the damage is being done by Ukranian nationalists "as they retreat"
> 
> You have to wonder how they can spout this stuff with a straight face...


Not "apparently"!

I can get Russian State TV and for the first time yesterday on the lunchtime news they actually showed a few clips of destroyed buildings, shattered windows and nasty holes in the ground all made by those horrid Ukrainians, . However for the Russian presenter the main subject of the news is just the same. The glorious Russian army making their way through the tranquil Ukrainian countryside being welcomed by grateful citizens to whom they generously distribute provisions. Anything the West is told is a pack of lies!.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Not "apparently"!
> 
> I can get Russian State TV and for the first time yesterday on the lunchtime news they actually showed a few clips of destroyed buildings, shattered windows and nasty holes in the ground all made by those horrid Ukrainians, . However for the Russian presenter the main subject of the news is just the same. The glorious Russian army making their way through the tranquil Ukrainian countryside being welcomed by grateful citizens to whom they generously distribute provisions. Anything the West is told is a pack of lies!.


You really wonder how much longer they can get away with such rot.

At some point, they are not going to be able to hide the death count.

At some point, people with half a brain are hopefully going questions why the Ukranians would destroy cities they are still in control of.

At some point, people with half a brain are hopefully going to wonder why, if Ukraine are welcoming the russian army as liberators, so many people - many Russian speakers amongst them - are choosing to flee from them - and flee West, not East. It's almost like they want nothing to do with russia...


----------



## DogLover1981

The chance of direct NATO involvement in Ukraine grows, the longer this war lasts, IMO. People are not going to be able to stomach staying out of it with all the suffering of those poor people in Ukraine and with all the refugees. It's possible that they're just delaying the inevitable. Already you see foreign fighters that blur the lines slightly.


----------



## DogLover1981

Maurey said:


> Sure, maybe most wouldn't be arrested, but doesn't mean police can't (and aren't already) using violent means. Not everything that happens here gets reported in the west. Like jailed peaceful protestors undergoing physical and psychological abuse for making use of their constitutional right to not answer the questions of the police.


Back to an old post. I was just thinking that expecting people in Russia to protest and end this war quickly is rather unfair, especially in such a risky environment. Any end to this war is likely to involve Putin being removed from power.  Even living here in a somewhat well functioning democracy, it took more than a decade of changing opinions, intense large protests, resistance and elections to end the Vietnam War.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Yes, it was weird: he said ''Putin's angry with . . . and he's angry at . . . and then after saying angry a few times said ''crazy'' and quickly corrected himself. Strange guy, very expressionless face, no expression whatever he was saying. And certainly delusional. Is he a Kremlin spokesman or what? It's not a job I would want.


He's Putin's "mouth"!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Peskov


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> Back to an old post. I was just thinking that expecting people in Russia to protest and end this war quickly is rather unfair, especially in such a risky environment. Any end to this war is likely to involve Putin being removed from power.  Even living here in a somewhat well functioning democracy, it took more than a decade of changing opinions, intense large protests, resistance and elections to end the Vietnam War.


You can't really compare the two wars. Unlike Russia the US was fighting a war in a country which meant little or nothing to the average American, Russia on the other hand is fighting to regain what it considers to be part of it's historical motherland

https://theconversation.com/why-did-russia-invade-ukraine-178512


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> You can't really compare the two wars. Unlike Russia the US was fighting a war in a country which meant little or nothing to the average American, Russia on the other hand is fighting to regain what it considers to be part of it's historical motherland
> 
> https://theconversation.com/why-did-russia-invade-ukraine-178512


Russia apparently considers all former Soviet Union as "motherland "? Plus the neighbouring countries..
Crimea was never a part of Russia till Stalin exterminated Tartars.
West Ukraine(now) was Polish. Lviv was a Polish city. My mum was born there.
Polish people accept that there's no point of starting wars to turn the clock.
Siberia was not Russian till 150 years ago and they are mercilessly exploited.
Like now - their boys are sent to fight in Ukraine.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Russia apparently considers all former Soviet Union as "motherland "? Plus the neighbouring countries..
> Crimea was never a part of Russia till Stalin exterminated Tartars.
> West Ukraine(now) was Polish. Lviv was a Polish city. My mum was born there.
> Polish people accept that there's no point of starting wars to turn the clock.
> Siberia was not Russian till 150 years ago and they are mercilessly exploited.
> Like now - their boys are sent to fight in Ukraine.


He will try and claim Alaska back soon!


----------



## DogLover1981

Magyarmum said:


> You can't really compare the two wars. Unlike Russia the US was fighting a war in a country which meant little or nothing to the average American, Russia on the other hand is fighting to regain what it considers to be part of it's historical motherland
> 
> https://theconversation.com/why-did-russia-invade-ukraine-178512


True. It's not comparable in many ways. All wars are unique. I'm sensing some large cultural differences regarding Russia and Russian politics with what I'm seeing in regards to this war.


----------



## DogLover1981

I did read that many people originally from Belarus are joining the Ukraine military right now. This could get interesting and I do wonder what will happen in the days and weeks ahead. Putin could soon find himself fighting in two different countries. O.O


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> He will try and claim Alaska back soon!


Yea… in their schoolss as children are taught a song about getting Alaska back..or nukies will go…

Meanwhile Belarusian battalion joined Ukrainian defence…


----------



## cheekyscrip

On 1st April new conscription to Russian army. Prisoners even those with life sentences will be allowed to apply and full amnesty for them if they go to Ukraine.
It leaked from Russia and was published in Polish and Ukrainian.
Putin will move to the next stage.
Hope the West is getting ready too.


----------



## Maurey

Local independent news update.

“
Russian troops will drastically reduce military activity in the Kiev and Chernigov directions. This was stated by the Deputy Minister of Defense after the completion of Russian-Ukrainian negotiations in Istanbul.

The representative of the department stressed that this decision was made "in order to increase mutual trust."”

In person talks are being held today and tomorrow.

ETA more news:

“
Representatives of the Ukrainian delegation at the talks in Istanbul suggested that Russia fix the positions of the two countries on Crimea and Sevastopol in the agreement, Mikhail Podolyak, adviser to the head of the presidential office of Ukraine, said.

According to him, it is proposed to hold bilateral negotiations on the status of Crimea and Sevastopol within 15 years.

In a separate paragraph, the Ukrainian side proposed to prescribe that during this period, while negotiations are underway, Ukraine and Russia will not use armed forces to resolve the issue of Crimea.

The head of the Russian delegation, Vladimir Medinsky, said after a meeting with representatives of Ukraine that "the talks were constructive." According to him, the Russian side received from Ukraine for consideration "their clearly formulated position for inclusion in the agreement."

“These proposals will be considered in the near future, reported to the president, and our corresponding response will be given,” Medinsky stressed.”


----------



## cheekyscrip

Maurey said:


> Local independent news update.
> 
> "
> Russian troops will drastically reduce military activity in the Kiev and Chernigov directions. This was stated by the Deputy Minister of Defense after the completion of Russian-Ukrainian negotiations in Istanbul.
> 
> The representative of the department stressed that this decision was made "in order to increase mutual trust.""
> 
> In person talks are being held today and tomorrow.
> 
> ETA more news:
> 
> "
> Representatives of the Ukrainian delegation at the talks in Istanbul suggested that Russia fix the positions of the two countries on Crimea and Sevastopol in the agreement, Mikhail Podolyak, adviser to the head of the presidential office of Ukraine, said.
> 
> According to him, it is proposed to hold bilateral negotiations on the status of Crimea and Sevastopol within 15 years.
> 
> In a separate paragraph, the Ukrainian side proposed to prescribe that during this period, while negotiations are underway, Ukraine and Russia will not use armed forces to resolve the issue of Crimea.
> 
> The head of the Russian delegation, Vladimir Medinsky, said after a meeting with representatives of Ukraine that "the talks were constructive." According to him, the Russian side received from Ukraine for consideration "their clearly formulated position for inclusion in the agreement."
> 
> "These proposals will be considered in the near future, reported to the president, and our corresponding response will be given," Medinsky stressed."


Russian troops with reduce activity where they were pushed back.
I don't trust and don't believe anything until they stop and go back to Russia.
Playing for time and recruiting more soldiers. 
Lies and more lies.


----------



## Cully

All this talk about proposals and such leaves me very nervous and untrusting.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer!!


----------



## Jesthar

Maurey said:


> Local independent news update.
> 
> "
> Russian troops will drastically reduce military activity in the Kiev and Chernigov directions. This was stated by the Deputy Minister of Defense after the completion of Russian-Ukrainian negotiations in Istanbul.
> 
> The representative of the department stressed that this decision was made "in order to increase mutual trust.""


Reminds me of a quote from one of Spike Milligans war memoirs about hearing a radio announcement that British forces had "successfully disengaged the enemy" somewhere or other - translation: "we took a right pasting and retreated"

And thanks, Maurey - having an inside perspective is fascinating. Hope you are OK, and able to keep up to date with real world news, not just the state propaganda!



Cully said:


> All this talk about proposals and such leaves me very nervous and untrusting.
> Keep your friends close and your enemies closer!!


I trust Putin and his mouthpieces about as far as I could throw Mount Everest. Safest thing is to assume everything they say is a lie, as falsehood seems to be their native language...


----------



## margy

I was upset today watching the news, which I'm avoiding at the mo because of the war. A Ukrainian woman civilian shot by a Russian soldier in her lower body, even though she had held her arms up in submission. God so evil. Just why?


----------



## DogLover1981

Apparently Putin didn't even know until now that the Russian military is doing poorly in Ukraine but he still may not even know the full story. Reminds me of the "Dictator Trap" article I linked to earlier.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60936117


----------



## Magyarmum

Putin has just announced that from today all gas supplies must be paid for in roubles. Any country failing to do so will have their gas supply suspended.

France and Germany have refused.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/france-germany-reject-putins-roubles-gas-demand-2022-03-31/


----------



## HarlequinCat

Magyarmum said:


> Putin has just announced that from today all gas supplies must be paid for in roubles. Any country failing to do so will have their gas supply suspended.
> 
> France and Germany have refused.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/france-germany-reject-putins-roubles-gas-demand-2022-03-31/


Ahhh putin is a mystery. If people disagree and don't pay in roubles surely he would lose a lot of money. 
He's essentially blackmailing countries but I hope they call his bluff in a way. I don't see it ending well for him if he carried out his threat


----------



## Jesthar

HarlequinCat said:


> Ahhh putin is a mystery. If people disagree and don't pay in roubles surely he would lose a lot of money.
> He's essentially blackmailing countries but I hope they call his bluff in a way. I don't see it ending well for him if he carried out his threat


I don't think he's getting the response he hoped for, certainly - Germany have said Nyet, France have said they are cutting deliveries, and the UK basically went with the diplomatic equivalent of a bored yawn.

Also, it's not that easy to simply rip up international contracts or demand fundamental changes to them. If it was, everybody would be doing it any time they got offended by the international equivalent of "What their Doreen said about our Fred at Cynthia's wedding"

You do have to wonder if he was hoping this was a major trump card. It will be interesting to see what will happen if it is effectively shredded.


----------



## DogLover1981

margy said:


> I was upset today watching the news, which I'm avoiding at the mo because of the war. A Ukrainian woman civilian shot by a Russian soldier in her lower body, even though she had held her arms up in submission. God so evil. Just why?


There is some truly awful stories coming out of Ukraine. If I had friends in Ukraine, I would have been desperate to help them get out of there, especially women. Throughout history from ancient times to the present, rape is really common during warfare, especially with invading forces and it was one of my first thoughts when the invasion started. I was a little afraid to post anything about it here earlier. I'm already seeing a bunch of stories of people being raped by Russian soldiers and we very likely haven't even heard 1% of it yet.

Civilians can be treated in horrific ways during wars and I doubt Putin, basically being a dictator, much cares about how the soldiers behave.


----------



## MollySmith

A very important thread on democracy (lack of) and Russian interference in journalism and Brexit.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509612965011804162


----------



## Happy Paws2

They say that Putin doesn't really know what's going on that his Generals are to frighten to tell him how bad things really are, do they think the man is that stupid, of cause he knows he just doesn't care about the lives of the Ukraine people or Russian soldiers that are been lost as long as he gets his way.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> There is some truly awful stories coming out of Ukraine. If I had friends in Ukraine, I would have been desperate to help them get out of there, especially women. Throughout history from ancient times to the present, rape is really common during warfare, especially with invading forces and it was one of my first thoughts when the invasion started. I was a little afraid to post anything about it here earlier. I'm already seeing a bunch of stories of people being raped by Russian soldiers and we very likely haven't even heard 1% of it yet.
> 
> Civilians can be treated in horrific ways during wars and I doubt Putin, basically being a dictator, much cares about how the soldiers behave.


The Russian Army has always had a reputation for the wholesale rape of women.

In the 50's my father's business imported surgical instruments from Germany. I remember on one trip to a factory in Germany the owner telling my parents that the first army to enter the town was the British. They stole a little and raped a few women. Then came the Americans who stole and raped more than the British.

They were followed by the Russian army who ganged raped the women and looted on a grand scale, including the factory we were visiting. The owner said all the equipment, in fact everything right down to the last nut and bolt was taken back to Russia.

An old article from the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

*'The Russian soldiers raped every German female from eight to 80'*


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> They say that Putin doesn't really know what's going on that his Generals are to frighten to tell him how bad things really are, do they think the man is that stupid, of cause he knows he just doesn't care about the lives of the Ukraine people or Russian soldiers that are been lost as long as he gets his way.


Well, they say it partly because it is probably true. Telling a dictator news he doesn't want to hear is often a Career (or Life) Limiting Manoeuver - they aren't usually averse to shooting messengers.

And they also say it to play psychological games with Putin. It's already widely know how paranoid he is (just like Stalin was, and Hitler, and most brutal dictators come to that). Feeding the crazy might sound like a bad idea, but it's actually pretty smart. The more paranoid he gets, the less he trusts his inner circle, and the more likely he becomes to both disbelieve what then tell him and also lash out at them. There are already reports flying around that such things are starting. But taking things out on those poeple means he has to start worrying about their loyalty too, not to mention how much he would trust any replacements he appoints (who were presumeably deemed not loyal enough to be in the inner circle).

And if things get really bad, his then his inner circle will start questioning what they value more - their leader, or their money...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Some Russian soldiers simply switched sides and joined Ukrainian army hoping to overthrow Puti.
Putin by his sick ambition ruined Russia, Ukraine and impoverished many countries who have to deal with aftermath of this war.
China gained.
Best Russia can do is to just cut off his mobile.
IT specialists are leaving Russia. 70 k gone already and 100 k more might leave.
But one wonders…


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## MollySmith

Why I keep reminding people to check facts. Russian firm helps false news firms to get more ad profit. 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tes-pushing-false-news-profit-from-ads-yandex


----------



## DogLover1981

I was mildly afraid of other countries getting dragged into the conflict at the beginning of the invasion but it's becoming obvious that the Russian military is not what it was during the cold war. That's possibly due to a lack of maintenance and corruption. I do wonder if it is Putin that is at risk of losing territory that was taken over the last few decades in other regions besides Ukraine.

The corruption and lack of maintenance thought is rather concerning when thinking about the nuclear weapons. O.O


----------



## Jesthar

DogLover1981 said:


> I was mildly afraid of other countries getting dragged into the conflict at the beginning of the invasion but it's becoming obvious that the Russian military is not what it was during the cold war. That's possibly due to a lack of maintenance and corruption. I do wonder if it is Putin that is at risk of losing territory that was taken over the last few decades in other regions besides Ukraine.
> 
> The corruption and lack of maintenance thought is rather concerning when thinking about the nuclear weapons. O.O


It's a bit more than that - under Putin the whole system has descended into what some have been calling a 'kleptocracy' - those in power at all levels diverting funding to line their own pockets or work on prestige projects. That leads to everything from lower level officers selling off spare parts to the higher levels investing in dachas and luxury cars for themselves rather than training facilities and logistic backup for their troops.

Oh, and massive delays on the prestige projects, too - take the Armata tank, which is theoretically enough to worry even the mighty US head to head. There have been a small number trundling around in parades since 2015, and the original state intent was to have over 2,000 of them by 2022. Instead there has been one pilot batch of 20, which were only delivered last year and are still supposedly undergoing state trials. All of this is euphamisitcally linked to 'financial abuses', with the official reasoning being "T-72s, T-80s and T-90s are still more than the equal of Western tanks, so let's just modernise them rather than waste money on new tanks." And whilst that may theoretically be true, Western tank KILLING weapons have drastically improved and are knocking those tanks out with frightening ease.

The elite troops aren't faring any better. The 331st Parachute Regiment, regarded as as one of the most elite russian units pre-Ukraine, has been decimated by Ukranian units usually comprised of just local defence troops and reservists. That is not supposed to happen, but it has, and speaks of basic failings in recruitment and training. The BBC has confirmed through independent open source images 39 named dead (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60946340), but the last of those dates from the 13th March so it is reasonable to assume there have been many more than this identified handful. Unofficial estimates from the town where the regiment is based suggest at least 100 known dead, and probably many more missing.

And, of course, after the severe failings of Ukraine's army in 2014 when Crimea was taken, they wasted no time in learning those hard lessons very fast and rapidly modernising, including copious amounts of training from other countries. They knew this would likely happen again, and prepared accordingly. Moscow appears to have assumed nothing would have changed, and the WW2 era mass action tactics they continue to favour would still prevail, and not bothered to learn anything new themselves. Oops.


----------



## cheekyscrip

In villages freed from Russian occupation Ukrainian a now find bodies of men and women executed. In some places there is a dead man shot in front of every house. Ethnic cleansing.
They found naked bodies of group of women, Russians were running away, had no time to burn them.
In other places there are mass graves of executed civilians.
I will put no links as those images are horrific and text is Polish or Ukrainian.
This not just invasion, this genocide .
My friend managed to get to safety 10 people from Mariupol.
The town systematically destroyed.
They have been through absolute horror.
Whoever still trades with Putin supports that, feeds that.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> In villages freed from Russian occupation Ukrainian a now find bodies of men and women executed. In some places there is a dead man shot in front of every house. Ethnic cleansing.
> They found naked bodies of group of women, Russians were running away, had no time to burn them.
> In other places there are mass graves of executed civilians.
> I will put no links as those images are horrific and text is Polish or Ukrainian.
> This not just invasion, this genocide .
> My friend managed to get to safety 10 people from Mariupol.
> The town systematically destroyed.
> They have been through absolute horror.
> Whoever still trades with Putin supports that, feeds that.


There are reports on CNN this morning which seem to confirm the reports you've been getting.

In Bucha, on the outskirts of Kyiv a mass grave of. 300 women children and men with their hands tied behind their backs has been found. All were shot with a bullet to the back of the head, Reports also of children being held hostage and placed on the front of Russian tanks to prevent the Ukrainians targeting them. And the bodies of about 20 men, hands tied behind their backs shot to death by Russian soldiers.

By contrast, I try to watch Russian state TV news each day. If they are to be believed the Russian Army are making their way across Ukraine with little or no resistance. No pictures of mass destruction that we in the West see, just a few houses demolished. The only exception to this apparently peaceful invasion were clips of some apartment blocks that had been hit in I believe Dombas or Donestk which were purported to have been targeted by the Ukrainians.


----------



## Happy Paws2

All this for a crazy man who what some land back, I ask myself why does it really matter who owns what, it's a new country doing well for it's self no threat to anyone. It's just a power crazy man who generals are to frighten to stand up too, surely by now they know they need to get rid of him.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Not before time they should have done this weeks ago

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60952063


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> All this for a crazy man who what some land back, I ask myself why does it really matter who owns what, it's a new country doing well for it's self no threat to anyone. It's just a power crazy man who generals are to frighten to stand up too, surely by now they know they need to get rid of him.


Unfortunately that's not the way it's seen in Russia and least of all by Putin.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...106852199&mc_cid=01b9aced13&mc_eid=00f4524d2e

*Putin's War Will Destroy Russia*

https://meduza.io/feature/2022/03/1...te&utm_medium=push&utm_campaign=breaking_news

*Putin began repressions against the 5th service of the FSB. It was she who, on the eve of the war, provided the President of Russia with data on the political situation in Ukraine.*


----------



## DogLover1981

The poor pet owners in Ukraine too. I saw a video of a lady that was in tears because both her dogs were hit by shrapnel. The dogs were mostly OK but there was blood all over their fur. One screamed when she tried to touch and look at the wounds.  There's likely hundreds of thousands of dog owners throughout Ukraine dealing with injured or killed dogs.


----------



## DogLover1981

With all the details coming out of various formerly occupied regions, I think the Ukraine invasion is also an attempted and mostly/partially failed genocide. This awful tragic situation could have been so much worse had the Ukraine military not been getting any assistance. 

It might be wise for the Ukraine military to get assistance in taking back all occupied territory, including Crimea, in order to send a message to Putin that these border changes won't be tolerated anymore, IMO.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Yet Orban won yet another election in Hungary. Putin will be pleased.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Yet Orban won yet another election in Hungary. Putin will be pleased.


Putin's got far more important things to think about .......... like a war that's going badly perhaps?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Magyarmum said:


> Putin's got far more important things to think about .......... like a war that's going badly perhaps?


 Putin has found the time to congratulate Orban, I should imagine Putin has also found the time to be extremely pleased that Oban has been re- elected and called Zelenksy an opponent. Best news Putin has had in a while!


----------



## Magyarmum

3dogs2cats said:


> Putin has found the time to congratulate Orban, I should imagine Putin has also found the time to be extremely pleased that Oban has been re- elected and called Zelenksy an opponent. Best news Putin has had in a while!


I stand corrected.

However,I don't think you are right when you say it's the best news Putin has had in a while. He can't be very happy that Orban chose to side with the EU over everything except tougher sanctions on energy and gas on which Hungary is heavily dependent . Also not allowing Hungary territory to be used for the transit of weapons. There are 150,000 ethnic Hungarians living in Ukraine which is one of the reasons Hungary chose to remain neutral..

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/02/put...e-european-union-as-hungarys-orban-turns.html

*Putin loses his key ally in the EU as Hungary's Orban turns on the Russian leader*

For all his faults I can't see Orban condoning the atrocities the Russians have committed in Ukraine and which Putin is now trying to walk back by accusing the West, particularly the UK press - of propagating fake news Quite revealing watching the Russian State TV News today trying to convince their viewers they aren't the monsters the world says they are.

But what do I know?


----------



## daveos

This is horrific hearing reports of young girls as young as 1o being raped and tortured in Bucha I feel sick to the stomach hearing this the Russian soldiers are total animals for doing this and killing and torturing innocent civilians.
We need boots on the ground to hell with Russias threats this needs stoping now the Russians can not get away with this.


----------



## HarlequinCat

daveos said:


> This is horrific hearing reports of young girls as young as 1o being raped and tortured in Bucha I feel sick to the stomach hearing this the Russian soldiers are total animals for doing this and killing and torturing innocent civilians.
> We need boots on the ground to hell with Russias threats this needs stoping now the Russians can not get away with this.


Boots on the ground would be a knee jerk reaction that could have big consequences. It's more and more obvious Putin just does not seem stable. There's no one in his inner circle who will stop him, even with these appealing crimes against women and children.

Can you imagine what could happen if western countries set foot on Russian or Ukrainian soil? Nukes would be the first thing on his mind. He really has nothing to lose.

Something does have to be done. What I don't know. All I know is Putin could be waiting for the West to physically do something, to have an excuse to do something even worse..


----------



## cheekyscrip

HarlequinCat said:


> Boots on the ground would be a knee jerk reaction that could have big consequences. It's more and more obvious Putin just does not seem stable. There's no one in his inner circle who will stop him, even with these appealing crimes against women and children.
> 
> Can you imagine what could happen if western countries set foot on Russian or Ukrainian soil? Nukes would be the first thing on his mind. He really has nothing to lose.
> 
> Something does have to be done. What I don't know. All I know is Putin could be waiting for the West to physically do something, to have an excuse to do something even worse..


Tanks, planes and ammunition.


----------



## daveos

cheekyscrip said:


> Tanks, planes and ammunition.


100 percent agree we cannot stand by and witness these acts the Russians need to be kicked out of Ukraine and all lands taken by Russia to be returned to the Ukrainians, And looking at the Russian military hardware I doubt their Nuclear weapons are up to date and if they use them then goodbye Russia.


----------



## HarlequinCat

daveos said:


> 100 percent agree we cannot stand by and witness these acts the Russians need to be kicked out of Ukraine and all lands taken by Russia to be returned to the Ukrainians, And looking at the Russian military hardware I doubt their Nuclear weapons are up to date and if they use them then goodbye Russia.


I really wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the nuclear threat. Or to underestimate what he is capable of still. He has already used thermobaric bombs on Ukraine, on civilians. All he needs are a couple of nuclear bombs etc to work to cause a huge amount of devastation.

We will have to agree to disagree. A war, which is what it will turn in to if there are planes tanks troops, whatever, involved. Will be even more damaging to many many more people.


----------



## Jesthar

For anyone interested, I accidentally came across a Youtube channel when a very savvy Aussie well versed in military investment strategy has done several videos analysing what has gone so very wrong for Russia and so right for Ukraine. The videos are on the long side, but are laced with Aussie humour and very watchable - I will add a language warning as, being a typical straight talking Aussie, there is a moderate amount of routine casual swearing  There are no distressing images, and I found what he had to say fascinating.

The first video (All Bling, no Basics - Why Ukraine has embarrassed the Russian Military) went up literally 8 days into the Russian offensive, and all these weeks later his analysis of why it was and would continue to be a disaster for the Russians has proven spot on (yes, the nuclear option is discussed):






The one he did two weeks later (uner half an hour long) debunking the theory that Russia was using cannon fodder first and saving the better units:






He's done three more videos since, one on the role drones have played, one on the anti-tank weapons, and one on the advantages Ukranian reservists and irregulars/civilians have given the Ukranian defence (yes, including the farmers nicking tanks with their tractors  ). I won't post them all here, but the full playlist is here if people are interested:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbCbj03gdsWwxEZNyy_b0aHKFgmVT3G-3


----------



## Siskin

Is Maurey still posting, haven’t seen her on this thread for a few days


----------



## cheekyscrip

HarlequinCat said:


> I really wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the nuclear threat. Or to underestimate what he is capable of still. He has already used thermobaric bombs on Ukraine, on civilians. All he needs are a couple of nuclear bombs etc to work to cause a huge amount of devastation.
> 
> We will have to agree to disagree. A war, which is what it will turn in to if there are planes tanks troops, whatever, involved. Will be even more damaging to many many more people.


And if we send nothing it will be very damaging to Ukrainian people.
And after Ukraine who is next?
With Hitler Britain used the same arguments until summer 1940?
Learnt nothing yet?
USA waiting till December 1941 - Pearl Harbour…
And Yalta and giving independent countries, even their allies like Poland to Stalin?
Payment for "war effort ".
Now Putin wants it all back to restore Soviet Union without the pretence of communism but the same dictatorship.
Once again West is happy to accept it.

Putin is a war criminal.
Innocent people are killed, homes destroyed.
So or we can help or we can watch them die.


----------



## DogLover1981

HarlequinCat said:


> I really wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the nuclear threat. Or to underestimate what he is capable of still.


It's possible that Putin could be irrational but I imagine Putin and his generals must know they'd be *really* uncharted territory if they started using nuclear weapons. God knows what classified technology that NATO, the UK, Europe and the USA has. There could be some top secret means of deflecting and shooting down nuclear weapons. In other words, if Putin fired those nuclear weapons, it could result in Russia being annihilated while Europe is unaffected.

What might scare Putin even more is that he has no way of knowing if NATO knows exactly where he's residing. *He* might even be the first target in retaliation. O.O


----------



## £54etgfb6

Siskin said:


> Is Maurey still posting, haven't seen her on this thread for a few days


Maurey is safe and well  They are just taking a break from the news at the moment, understandably.


----------



## Jesthar

cheekyscrip said:


> And if we send nothing it will be very damaging to Ukrainian people.


We're sending lots already in support. We can't send troops of our own, but there is a LOT of both humanitarian and lethal aid going in - not to mention the massed information of pretty much the entire world's intelligence agencies. Not that we're going to publicise exactly what we're sending weapons wise, of course, no need to give the russians free intel...



cheekyscrip said:


> And after Ukraine who is next?
> With Hitler Britain used the same arguments until summer 1940?
> Learnt nothing yet?


Russia is the one who seemingly hasn't learned much, trying to use WW2 tactics in the modern warfare era, and building exactly the wrong kind of military machine for the kind of operation they tried to undertake in Ukraine. I highly recommend the first video I posted earlier for a superb analysis of that aspect.

And it is unlikely there will be a 'next' any time soon - most of the other potential neighbour targets are Nato countries, and the russian military has lost a decent proportion of their better units already in Ukraine. They might have high volumes of old equipment in long term storage, but judging from the general poor condition of the equipment seen with the active units I certainly don't expect the reserve equipment to be in any better condition, and they are probably a lot worse - not to mention massively outclassed due to their age. The US are looking to actively ramp up their presence in Europe, Nato countries are on full alert, all element of surprise has been lost by Putin and sanctions are going to make rearming difficult.



cheekyscrip said:


> USA waiting till December 1941 - Pearl Harbour…
> And Yalta and giving independent countries, even their allies like Poland to Stalin?Payment for "war effort ".


To be fair to the USA, they (like all of Europe aside from Hitler) didn't want to get dragged in to another massive war so soon after losing millions of men in WW1. But they DID try and provide significant assistance to Britain long before Hitler declared war on the US and ended all debate on the matter.

As to historical territory, that argument goes back many centuries before WW2 and is way beyond my knowledge scope to analyse.



cheekyscrip said:


> Now Putin wants it all back to restore Soviet Union without the pretence of communism but the same dictatorship.
> Once again West is happy to accept it.


Um, HOW is the West even remotely happy to accept what Putin is doing in Ukraine? 

If they were happy to accept it, there would be maybe some sanctions, but no aid, no weapons supplies, just a lot of handwringing and words. Instead, you have massive and increasing sanctions, Warsaw Pact countries scouring their inventories for anything they have to send which Ukrainian soldiers are already trained to use (this is now starting to include Soviet era tanks and fighting vehicles), and modern weapons and ammunition being shipped to them in huge quantity from all over the world. Countries which NEVER send lethal aid are doing so, and have changed laws in order to make that possible.



cheekyscrip said:


> Putin is a war criminal.
> Innocent people are killed, homes destroyed.
> So or we can help or we can watch them die.


And we ARE helping. But with the best will in the world we can't just wave a magic wand and make this go away overnight, and whether we like it or not there is a political balancing act to be done as well - something which is well beyond my brain to deal with.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Jesthar said:


> We're sending lots already in support. We can't send troops of our own, but there is a LOT of both humanitarian and lethal aid going in - not to mention the massed information of pretty much the entire world's intelligence agencies. Not that we're going to publicise exactly what we're sending weapons wise, of course, no need to give the russians free intel...
> 
> Russia is the one who seemingly hasn't learned much, trying to use WW2 tactics in the modern warfare era, and building exactly the wrong kind of military machine for the kind of operation they tried to undertake in Ukraine. I highly recommend the first video I posted earlier for a superb analysis of that aspect.
> 
> And it is unlikely there will be a 'next' any time soon - most of the other potential neighbour targets are Nato countries, and the russian military has lost a decent proportion of their better units already in Ukraine. They might have high volumes of old equipment in long term storage, but judging from the general poor condition of the equipment seen with the active units I certainly don't expect the reserve equipment to be in any better condition, and they are probably a lot worse - not to mention massively outclassed due to their age. The US are looking to actively ramp up their presence in Europe, Nato countries are on full alert, all element of surprise has been lost by Putin and sanctions are going to make rearming difficult.
> 
> To be fair to the USA, they (like all of Europe aside from Hitler) didn't want to get dragged in to another massive war so soon after losing millions of men in WW1. But they DID try and provide significant assistance to Britain long before Hitler declared war on the US and ended all debate on the matter.
> 
> As to historical territory, that argument goes back many centuries before WW2 and is way beyond my knowledge scope to analyse.
> 
> Um, HOW is the West even remotely happy to accept what Putin is doing in Ukraine?
> 
> If they were happy to accept it, there would be maybe some sanctions, but no aid, no weapons supplies, just a lot of handwringing and words. Instead, you have massive and increasing sanctions, Warsaw Pact countries scouring their inventories for anything they have to send which Ukrainian soldiers are already trained to use (this is now starting to include Soviet era tanks and fighting vehicles), and modern weapons and ammunition being shipped to them in huge quantity from all over the world. Countries which NEVER send lethal aid are doing so, and have changed laws in order to make that possible.
> 
> And we ARE helping. But with the best will in the world we can't just wave a magic wand and make this go away overnight, and whether we like it or not there is a political balancing act to be done as well - something which is well beyond my brain to deal with.


You put this better than I could have.


----------



## cheekyscrip

@Jesthar not very fine tuning if our politicians were happy to have our countries dependent on Russian oil, gas etc…
As to territorial issues - yes , the frontiers moved in Europe but it is absurd to go back in time … and justify any war because way back it was "ours". My family had everything left running from Lviv from Ukrainian bands.
But it was 78 ago and pointless to fight for it.
It is history.
Ruble recovery shows that unless Europe stop buying oil and gas then sanctions are not enough.


----------



## DogLover1981

Jesthar said:


> We're sending lots already in support. We can't send troops of our own, but there is a LOT of both humanitarian and lethal aid going in - not to mention the massed information of pretty much the entire world's intelligence agencies. Not that we're going to publicise exactly what we're sending weapons wise, of course, no need to give the russians free intel...


Even the no troops on the ground is probably not entirely true and a bit blurry. I would *not* be surprised at all if there are spooks from various countries on the ground in Ukraine. The Ukraine military is possibly getting assistance that they don't even realize they're getting at this point. lol There's also foreign fighters which blur the lines slightly.


----------



## HarlequinCat

cheekyscrip said:


> @Jesthar not very fine tuning if our politicians were happy to have our countries dependent on Russian oil, gas etc…
> As to territorial issues - yes , the frontiers moved in Europe but it is absurd to go back in time … and justify any war because way back it was "ours". My family had everything left running from Lviv from Ukrainian bands.
> But it was 78 ago and pointless to fight for it.
> It is history.
> Ruble recovery shows that unless Europe stop buying oil and gas then sanctions are not enough.


If we point blank stop or cut of the gas supply then the fuel poverty in Europe etc will be massive. The costs would rocket and those who are already vulnerable will be in a dire situation.
It was stupid to rely on a gas supply from Russia in the first place, and shows the short sightedness and arrogance of our leaders.
But this move from Russian gas etc is probably going to be a gradual withdrawal as we build up our own means are getting gas and making energy.
There is no quick fix.


----------



## Siskin

The UK only imported 4% of oil from Russia which it has now stopped. 
If all the European countries that import oil and gas stopped now then along with fuel poverty and it would have to find other ways of obtaining it. Norway is handy for Europe which is where we get a larger percentage of our gas from, so prices will be going even higher if and when that happens.
The UK is trying to get the EU countries to stop getting fuel from Russia, but has no real say on the matter now (as if we ever did). 


You can bet your bottom dollar that the ‘spooks’ are either in Ukraine or hanging about at the borders having a jolly good listen to what’s going on. Russian troops have always been rather loose lipped.


----------



## Jesthar

cheekyscrip said:


> @Jesthar not very fine tuning if our politicians were happy to have our countries dependent on Russian oil, gas etc…
> As to territorial issues - yes , the frontiers moved in Europe but it is absurd to go back in time … and justify any war because way back it was "ours". My family had everything left running from Lviv from Ukrainian bands.
> But it was 78 ago and pointless to fight for it.
> It is history.
> Ruble recovery shows that unless Europe stop buying oil and gas then sanctions are not enough.


Again, we can't just wave a magic wand and make all of these dependencies go away overnight. "Stop buying russian fuels" is all very well and needs to happen, but for countries that rely on it for a lot of their energy needs, then if they just stopped then so would their economy. It's easy for the UK, as we didn't use much of it in the first place, but it will be a lot harder other countries in the short term. The rest can do it, but it will take time, so for now we focus on what we CAN do rather than wishful thinking.

Being so dependent on one country for energy isn't a great idea, but you do have to get these things from where the natural resources are (cross refence the arab states), and back in the days when the Soviet era collapsed the emphasis was on "let's show Russia how good it is to be a part of the wider world." In the absence of working crystal balls, I'm pretty sure no-one thought a few decades down the line a wannabe-Stalin would try and recreate the USSR.



DogLover1981 said:


> Even the no troops on the ground is probably not entirely true and a bit blurry. I would *not* be surprised at all if there are spooks from various countries on the ground in Ukraine. The Ukraine military is possibly getting assistance that they don't even realize they're getting at this point. lol There's also foreign fighters which blur the lines slightly.


I would expect there are, they will be very interested to see how the modern weapons systems are performing in a real conflict as opposed to test scenarios too.

I will add a *distressing things being discussed warning *to this one, but this journalist (a former Marine) spent time in Ukraine with a former Marine who travelled to Ukraine to fight - like the author, I acknowledge that the details can't be proven, but they do ring true: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...r-foreign-fighters-ukraine-russia-war/627604/



Siskin said:


> You can bet your bottom dollar that the 'spooks' are either in Ukraine or hanging about at the borders having a jolly good listen to what's going on. Russian troops have always been rather loose lipped.


You don't even need that - the russians are severely lacking in secure communications because their new, much vaunted secure comms system relies on - wait for it - 3G towers. Which, of course, they destroyed (or tried to) in the initial assault to try and stop the Ukraninans communicating...  Nor does the system work with the Stingray towers the russians carry as comms replacements (we NEED a facepalm icon here). So the russians were reduced to open speech on stolen mobile phones (russian troops are not allowed to have smartphones even for private use) or radio, whilst the Ukranians listenend in gleefully - and the rest of the world too, according to the Aussie chap - if you have certain kinds of freely available internet radio receivers and a rudimentary knoweldge of Russian you could listen in on the russian army in real time from half way around the world...


----------



## Siskin

Jesthar said:


> Again, we can't just wave a magic wand and make all of these dependencies go away overnight. "Stop buying russian fuels" is all very well and needs to happen, but for countries that rely on it for a lot of their energy needs, then if they just stopped then so would their economy. It's easy for the UK, as we didn't use much of it in the first place, but it will be a lot harder other countries in the short term. The rest can do it, but it will take time, so for now we focus on what we CAN do rather than wishful thinking.
> 
> Being so dependent on one country for energy isn't a great idea, but you do have to get these things from where the natural resources are (cross refence the arab states), and back in the days when the Soviet era collapsed the emphasis was on "let's show Russia how good it is to be a part of the wider world." In the absence of working crystal balls, I'm pretty sure no-one thought a few decades down the line a wannabe-Stalin would try and recreate the USSR.
> 
> I would expect there are, they will be very interested to see how the modern weapons systems are performing in a real conflict as opposed to test scenarios too.
> 
> I will add a *distressing things being discussed warning *to this one, but this journalist (a former Marine) spent time in Ukraine with a former Marine who travelled to Ukraine to fight - like the author, I acknowledge that the details can't be proven, but they do ring true: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...r-foreign-fighters-ukraine-russia-war/627604/
> 
> You don't even need that - the russians are severely lacking in secure communications because their new, much vaunted secure comms system relies on - wait for it - 3G towers. Which, of course, they destroyed (or tried to) in the initial assault to try and stop the Ukraninans communicating...  Nor does the system work with the Stingray towers the russians carry as comms replacements (we NEED a facepalm icon here). So the russians were reduced to open speech on stolen mobile phones (russian troops are not allowed to have smartphones even for private use) or radio, whilst the Ukranians listenend in gleefully - and the rest of the world too, according to the Aussie chap - if you have certain kinds of freely available internet radio receivers and a rudimentary knoweldge of Russian you could listen in on the russian army in real time from half way around the world...


We watched the first video you put up yesterday and nodded in agreement over much of it.
Without going in to any detail, both OH and I worked at gchq during the Cold War years.


----------



## Calvine

HarlequinCat said:


> Something does have to be done. What I don't know


Finding a reasonable ''solution'' is nigh on impossible when you are dealing with a madman - considering he maintains he is trying to ''de-nazify'' the country he seems to be becoming daily more like Adolf Hitler.


----------



## Jesthar

Siskin said:


> We watched the first video you put up yesterday and nodded in agreement over much of it.
> Without going in to any detail, both OH and I worked at gchq during the Cold War years.


Interesting to know  He talks a lot of sense, and is straightforward for even non-military background people like me to follow.



Calvine said:


> Finding a reasonable ''solution'' is nigh on impossible when you are dealing with a madman - considering he maintains he is trying to ''de-nazify'' the country he seems to be becoming daily more like Adolf Hitler.


He does, doesn't he?  Even the rhetoric being published in the state media is getting ever more extreme - a few days ago one of the state controlled papers published an editorial that basically said Ukraine = Nazi, and therefore "Denazification is inevitably also De-Ukrainianization"
*
Warning: article talks about liquidation and re-education of people (hmm, why does THAT sound familiar?):*
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/kremlin-editorial-ukraine-identity-1.6407921


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Interesting to know  He talks a lot of sense, and is straightforward for even non-military background people like me to follow.
> 
> He does, doesn't he?  Even the rhetoric being published in the state media is getting ever more extreme - a few days ago one of the state controlled papers published an editorial that basically said Ukraine = Nazi, and therefore "Denazification is inevitably also De-Ukrainianization"
> *
> Warning: article talks about liquidation and re-education of people (hmm, why does THAT sound familiar?):*
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/kremlin-editorial-ukraine-identity-1.6407921


You beat me to it. I was just about to post the article but wasn't sure everyone has google translate because the original is in Russian. Here though is an English translation.

https://uacrisis.org/en/justificati...-desire-to-exterminate-ukrainians-as-a-nation

*What should Russia do with Ukraine?*


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> Finding a reasonable ''solution'' is nigh on impossible when you are dealing with a madman - considering he maintains he is trying to ''de-nazify'' the country he seems to be becoming daily more like Adolf Hitler.


Putin gets more bizarre everyday! I can't see how anyone can negotiate with him, as soon as an agreement was reached he would change his mind on what he wants!


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> You beat me to it. I was just about to post the article but wasn't sure everyone has google translate because the original is in Russian. Here though is an English translation.
> 
> https://uacrisis.org/en/justificati...-desire-to-exterminate-ukrainians-as-a-nation
> 
> *What should Russia do with Ukraine?*


That... is SCARY reading...


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> He does, doesn't he?  Even the rhetoric being published in the state media is getting ever more extreme - a few days ago one of the state controlled papers published an editorial that basically said Ukraine = Nazi, and therefore "Denazification is inevitably also De-Ukrainianization"


What makes it really odd: I've read a few times that Zelensky himself claims to be Jewish (or to have Jewish roots).


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> That... is SCARY reading...


VERY SCARY!

Another interesting article from Meduza

https://meduza.io/en/pages/about

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/04/putin-s-last-stand

*Putin's last stand How to lose a war simply by starting one*


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> What makes it really odd: I've read a few times that Zelensky himself claims to be Jewish (or to have Jewish roots).


https://www.britannica.com/biography/Volodymyr-Zelensky


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.britannica.com/biography/Volodymyr-Zelensky


I've read similar articles too - and that he was a comedian; but if you look carefully at some of ours, you have to think they would do better on stage . . . and look at laugh a minute Donald!


----------



## cheekyscrip

HarlequinCat said:


> If we point blank stop or cut of the gas supply then the fuel poverty in Europe etc will be massive. The costs would rocket and those who are already vulnerable will be in a dire situation.
> It was stupid to rely on a gas supply from Russia in the first place, and shows the short sightedness and arrogance of our leaders.
> But this move from Russian gas etc is probably going to be a gradual withdrawal as we build up our own means are getting gas and making energy.
> There is no quick fix.


I know… but we all can make war effort and save energy where possible?
No patio heaters and some such. I think it was done before and could be done again.
Getting away from Russian fuel should have been done after invasion on Crimea.
It never was a Russian territory.
Stalin extermination of Tartars and mass deportations started the Russification of Crimea, but let's admit that if a proper action was taken then Ukraine would have not been attacked.
Or if after 2014 was admitted to EU.
I saw good Ukrainian explanation what it means to be "associated with EU", but do not enter.
It is like balls in the intecourse…they participate in it, they get all the bashing, get [email protected]@@@@ up but do not enter.


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> I've read similar articles too - and that he was a comedian*; but if you look carefully at some of ours, you have to think they would do better on stage *. . . and look at laugh a minute Donald!


Nah, there's a significant difference between a comedian and a laughing stock


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> Nah, there's a significant difference between a comedian and a laughing stock


I always think of the Donald as a ''clown''. I have to admit it: he made me laugh out loud sometimes. I remember one classic where he announced ''there's a lot of sand over there - a lot of sand they can play with'' (think he was talking about Syria).


----------



## Jobeth

Calvine said:


> I always think of the Donald as a ''clown''. I have to admit it: he made me laugh out loud sometimes. I remember one classic where he announced ''there's a lot of sand over there - a lot of sand they can play with'' (think he was talking about Syria).


Whilst in Israel he told them that he'd just got back from the Middle East…


----------



## DogLover1981

Putin could find himself in a really awkward position. The pope has made noises about visiting Ukraine real soon. O.O I'm not super keen about the pope but he's being a little brave if he does visit a war zone and I do wonder if his visit may actually accomplish something positive.


----------



## white_shadow

DogLover1981 said:


> Putin could find himself in a really awkward position. The pope has made noises about visiting Ukraine real soon. O.O I'm not super keen about the pope but he's being a little brave if he does visit a war zone and I do wonder if his visit may actually accomplish something positive.


I've been mulling over whether/not to post about that person since just before the invasion itself began.

I'd say he's a little late to the party.

First off, I despise the organization on top of which that individual sits....while recognizing the power of his position.

Within a very short time before actual Russian troop movement, that person, under cover of night, took himself to the residence/embassy of the Russian ambassador.....that was caught by some media. The result was nada.....zip, zero. zilch, nothing.

Now, this is someone who is able to transport himself to anywhere on the globe, wherever and whenever it suits him for his greater honour and adoration.

Well, what if he had transported the papal buttocks to the centre of Kyiv pre-February 24 and 'invited' the parties to meet with him............and remained there until...?

What if ?
.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> Putin could find himself in a really awkward position. The pope has made noises about visiting Ukraine real soon. O.O I'm not super keen about the pope but he's being a little brave if he does visit a war zone and I do wonder if his visit may actually accomplish something positive.





white_shadow said:


> I've been mulling over whether/not to post about that person since just before the invasion itself began.
> 
> I'd say he's a little late to the party.
> 
> First off, I despise the organization on top of which that individual sits....while recognizing the power of his position.
> 
> Within a very short time before actual Russian troop movement, that person, under cover of night, took himself to the residence/embassy of the Russian ambassador.....that was caught by some media. The result was nada.....zip, zero. zilch, nothing.
> 
> Now, this is someone who is able to transport himself to anywhere on the globe, wherever and whenever it suits him for his greater honour and adoration.
> 
> Well, what if he had transported the papal buttocks to the centre of Kyiv pre-February 24 and 'invited' the parties to meet with him............and remained there until...?
> 
> What if ?
> .


What makes you think that the Pope has any sway over Putin and the war in Ukraine?

Putin is a devout follower of the Russian Orthodox Church the head of which is the Patriarch Kirill.

Patriarch Kirill supports both Putin and the war and is quite verbal about it. I very much doubt whether Putin would listen to the Pope any mire than he would to the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Israeli Chief Rabbi.

https://euobserver.com/opinion/154488

*The Patriarch who's in lockstep with Putin*


----------



## Calvine

DogLover1981 said:


> I'm not super keen about the pope


He (His Holiness) comes out with some BS, I must say. Didn't he say that people should have more children, not go out buying dogs? Sure it was some such twaddle.


----------



## Happy Paws2

DogLover1981 said:


> *I'm not super keen about the pope* but he's being a little brave if he does visit a war zone and I do wonder if his visit may actually accomplish something positive.


I've never taken to him to him either.


----------



## kimthecat

Horrible about the train and the refugees killed. 

Boris is in Kyiv . he is promising more weapons etc , 

Much more needs to be done from the world in general .


----------



## DogLover1981

Jesthar said:


> I would expect there are, they will be very interested to see how the modern weapons systems are performing in a real conflict as opposed to test scenarios too.


Some of these spooks could be actively assisting the Ukraine military as well.

Too, with the foreign interference that Russia has been engaging in with foreign elections and such, I wouldn't be surprise if there are thousands of foreign agents in Ukraine and within Russia right now that are trying to "return the favor" at the moment and trying to undermine Putin and the Russian government. The war has created a perfect opportunity.


----------



## white_shadow

Magyarmum said:


> What makes you think that the Pope has any sway over Putin and the war in Ukraine?
> 
> Putin is a devout follower of the Russian Orthodox Church the head of which is the Patriarch Kirill.
> 
> Patriarch Kirill supports both Putin and the war and is quite verbal about it. I very much doubt whether Putin would listen to the Pope any mire than he would to the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Israeli Chief Rabbi.
> 
> https://euobserver.com/opinion/154488
> 
> *The Patriarch who's in lockstep with Putin*


It's all about the near-universally globally-recognized power and influence of the institution combined with the celebrity status of the current incumbent pope..........the sphere of influence of this one is utterly enormous. In comparison, the other parasites mentioned there _barely turn heads on a global scale_. Entire populations turn out for these "papal visits". This is the 'stuff' that dictators dread.

Now, I wasn't aware of the news tidbit that I'm about to post....I had heard mumblings ("noises") of what *@DogLover1981* posted, but nothing more...that is, until I went looking and found this: *reuters.com/world/europe*. I'd bet that Putin needed some fresh underwear when he got wind of that.

Francis could be the 'monkey wrench' that brings the wheels to a grinding stop.

Have a _careful_ read of that Reuters piece.
.


----------



## MollySmith

Boris clawing for better PR in the run up to local elections by hoping a well timed photo op will mean we all forget that his party is built on oligarch money and his government are still keeping those refugees out.


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> He (His Holiness) comes out with some BS, I must say. Didn't he say that people should have more children, not go out buying dogs? Sure it was some such twaddle.


Apparently the Pope who has no children called those who don't have children selfish whilst forgetting that miscarriage and infertility, poverty and climate change, alongside mental and physical health, and life circumstances prevent people from being parents, proving God doesn't dish out fertility any more fairly than brains or empathy.


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> Apparently the Pope who has no children called those who don't have children selfish whilst forgetting that miscarriage and infertility, poverty and climate change, alongside mental and physical health, and life circumstances prevent people from being parents, proving God doesn't dish out fertility any more fairly than brains or empathy.


I worked for a Catholic Mission Hospital in South Africa at the height of the HIV epidemic. We were confirming at least 100 new infections a day. The then Pope refused to condone the use of condoms which would have helped to prevent the spread of the disease which left the nuns all of whom were nurses with a dilemma. In the end they decided to disregard him and promote the use of condoms to the communities they served..


----------



## Beth78

Don't get me started on the Catholic Church, I was raised Catholic and the amount of pressure, guilt, misogyny and just downright damaging morals fed to young minds is ridiculous. 
At the age of 15 i used the confessional as a safe space to tell a priest about my bad experiences with my uncle, all I was told was to say 5 hail Mary's and to trust my elders more 
It was 19 years later that I had enough courage to tell my very Catholic parents.


----------



## Magyarmum

white_shadow said:


> It's all about the near-universally globally-recognized power and influence of the institution combined with the celebrity status of the current incumbent pope..........the sphere of influence of this one is utterly enormous. In comparison, the other parasites mentioned there _barely turn heads on a global scale_. Entire populations turn out for these "papal visits". This is the 'stuff' that dictators dread.
> 
> Now, I wasn't aware of the news tidbit that I'm about to post....I had heard mumblings ("noises") of what *@DogLover1981* posted, but nothing more...that is, until I went looking and found this: *reuters.com/world/europe*. I'd bet that Putin needed some fresh underwear when he got wind of that.
> 
> Francis could be the 'monkey wrench' that brings the wheels to a grinding stop.
> 
> Have a _careful_ read of that Reuters piece.
> .


These are the exact words used by the Pope on the return flight from Malta. I quote .....

*"Responding to a question from the Spanish journalist Jorge Antelo Barcia, Francis said that a trip to Kyiv "is on the table." The pope noted the many uncertainties are such a visit, saying "I don't know if it can be done, if it is fitting, and whether if would be for the best or if it is fitting to undertake it, and whether I should go… all this is in the air." He also mentioned the possibility of a visit to the Polish border, where Ukrainian refugees from the war are being received."*

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2022/04/03/francis-putin-ukraine-kyiv-visit-242752

Another article well worth reading.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-pope-the-patriarchs-and-the-battle-to-save-ukraine

*The Pope, the Patriarchs, and the Battle to Save Ukraine*


----------



## DogLover1981

Beyond all the death and destruction, the economic situation for Ukraine is awful.  A 45% economic contraction is being predicted for Ukraine this year. It's likely to take years to recover from that, I hope their economy recovers sooner. That's so many people without any sort of job that'll be needing help after all is said and done.


----------



## MollySmith

DogLover1981 said:


> Beyond all the death and destruction, the economic situation for Ukraine is awful.  A 45% economic contraction is being predicted for Ukraine this year. It's likely to take years to recover from that, I hope their economy recovers sooner. That's so many people without any sort of job that'll be needing help after all is said and done.


I have managed to commission a web developer in Ukraine last week. My recent newsletter encouraged people to buy digital downloads like fonts, prints from people in Ukraine as it's a way of earning money without the person needed to post anything. Any passive income streams are critical.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> Beyond all the death and destruction, the economic situation for Ukraine is awful.  A 45% economic contraction is being predicted for Ukraine this year. It's likely to take years to recover from that, I hope their economy recovers sooner. That's so many people without any sort of job that'll be needing help after all is said and done.


The economic repercussions of the Ukraine war will be felt to a greater or lesser degree by every country in the world.

https://blogs.imf.org/2022/03/15/how-war-in-ukraine-is-reverberating-across-worlds-regions/

*How War in Ukraine Is Reverberating Across World's Regions*


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> "Responding to a question from the Spanish journalist Jorge Antelo Barcia, Francis said that a trip to Kyiv "is on the table." The pope noted the many uncertainties are such a visit, saying "I don't know if it can be done, if it is fitting, and whether if would be for the best or if it is fitting to undertake it, and whether I should go… all this is in the air." He also mentioned the possibility of a visit to the Polish border, where Ukrainian refugees from the war are being received."


It sounds as though he can bluff and bluster his way out of giving a straight answer even better than Boris.


----------



## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


> The economic repercussions of the Ukraine war will be felt to a greater or lesser degree by every country in the world.
> 
> https://blogs.imf.org/2022/03/15/how-war-in-ukraine-is-reverberating-across-worlds-regions/
> 
> *How War in Ukraine Is Reverberating Across World's Regions*


Quite dire for some like Lebanon's who lost a lot of there food supplies in the port explosion so rely heavily on food from Ukraine which currently can't get to them.


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> Quite dire for some like Lebanon's who lost a lot of there food supplies in the port explosion so rely heavily on food from Ukraine which currently can't get to them.


Ukraine is hoping to sow around 70% of it's land this year, of which 30/40% will be kept for its own use and the rest will be exported.

At least that's the theory.

https://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-eco...ukraini-planuut-zasiati-70-posivnih-plos.html

*This year Ukraine plans to sow 70% of sown areas*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Ukraine is hoping to sow around 70% of it's land this year, of which 30/40% will be kept for its own use and the rest will be exported.
> 
> At least that's the theory.
> 
> https://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-eco...ukraini-planuut-zasiati-70-posivnih-plos.html
> 
> *This year Ukraine plans to sow 70% of sown areas*


Hope they can, but Russia will probably bomb the fields.


----------



## Siskin

Happy Paws2 said:


> Hope they can, but Russia will probably bomb the fields.


That was my first thought


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> Hope they can, but Russia will probably bomb the fields.


Doubt it - well, not with conventional bombs. They can't afford it. Even a small-ish dumb gravity bomb costs thousands of dollars, and you have to risk a VERY expensive bomber (and escort aircraft) to get those bombs over the target. And all that for what, taking out a strip of dirt a mile wide and a few miles long in a country the size of Ukraine?

Mine-scattering munitions would be a bigger problem, but you still have the problem of getting them there, and those weapons are a lot more expensive too - plus the bombers and the escorts again.

So no - IF russia is going to actually deploy bombers, I strongly suspect it's going to want more return on the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of airframes and personnel it risks - plus many tens of thousands of munitions (or hundreds of thousands probably, as the fighters will have guided missiles, and they are EXPENSIVE) than a few cratered fields.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Hope they can, but Russia will probably bomb the fields.





Siskin said:


> That was my first thought


From the reports I've heard the Russians have already laid mines in some of the fields to prevent Ukrainian tanks using them

I shall now watch RT TV whilst I have my lunch to find the latest news according to the Russians. Please note, they're quite convinced they're winning:Banghead:Banghead


----------



## Maurey

Magyarmum said:


> From the reports I've heard the Russians have already laid mines in some of the fields to prevent Ukrainian tanks using them
> 
> I shall now watch RT TV whilst I have my lunch to find the latest news according to the Russians. Please note, they're quite convinced they're winning:Banghead:Banghead


I don't think it's fair to view Russian state media as synonymous with the perception of the population. I personally don't know anyone who believes the state news BS. Most people under 40 use either telegram (potentially problematic as there are some channels with misinformation on there ofc), or independent news sites like Meduza.


----------



## Magyarmum

Maurey said:


> I don't think it's fair to view Russian state media as synonymous with the perception of the population. I personally don't know anyone who believes the state news BS. Most people under 40 use either telegram (potentially problematic as there are some channels with misinformation on there ofc), or independent news sites like Meduza.


I wasn't doing. All I was saying was that was what the Russian State TV is saying. I prefer to follow Meduza or FB's Ukraine ua.

I probably know what propaganda is all about better than most having lived in South Africa during the apartheid years and now living in a country with extremely limited press freedom..


----------



## DogLover1981

It's definitely true that not everyone in Russia pays attention to Russian state media. It does sound like people highly polarized about the war. Some people are even fleeing Russia because they are against the war and because of the many unknowns about the future.

I think what is happening now in Russia is depressing. For years, Russia was somewhat democratic. Now, that's falling apart and people are being arrested for merely protesting the war with blank sheets of paper. Putin tried and failed to overthrow the Ukrainian government and on a larger level, the people of Ukraine are fighting to preserve their democratic form of government which they voted for.


----------



## Magyarmum

Maurey said:


> I don't think it's fair to view Russian state media as synonymous with the perception of the population. I personally don't know anyone who believes the state news BS. Most people under 40 use either telegram (potentially problematic as there are some channels with misinformation on there ofc), or independent news sites like Meduza.


https://meduza.io/en/episodes/2022/...il&utm_medium=briefly&utm_campaign=2022-04-12

*Independent journalism in Russia after the fall the free press*


----------



## DogLover1981

Apparently the Ukrainian military just majorly damaged, possibly sunk, a large Russian warship of sorts. This is potentially really *bad* for Putin as Turkey is now blocking any new warships trying to get into the black sea.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> Apparently the Ukrainian military just majorly damaged, possibly sunk, a large Russian warship of sorts. This is potentially really *bad* for Putin as Turkey is now blocking any new warships from the black sea.


I quote:

The Ukrainian military says it hit the Moskva Naval cruiser, the flagship of Russia's Black Sea Fleet, with a Neptune anti-ship cruise missile, causing "very serious damage" to the vessel. Russia's Defense Ministry confirmed that the warship suffered damage resulting in a complete evacuation, though the Navy attributed the incident to a fire supposedly caused by detonated ammunition.

The Russian explanation .....

https://ria.ru/20220414/kreyser-1783435471.html

*Ammunition detonated on the Moskva missile cruiser as a result of a fire*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> The Russian explanation .....
> 
> https://ria.ru/20220414/kreyser-1783435471.html
> 
> *Ammunition detonated on the Moskva missile cruiser as a result of a fire*


Hmmm, it will be interesting to see what the international experts think of that.

Whilst a fire on board a warship can definitely cause such explosions, you have to wonder how one started and got that out of control - combating fire at sea is one of the things sailors train most frequently in, as it is one of the two mortal enemies of a ship (the other, of course being water). Warships especially usually have extensive environmental reporting and damage control systems, given all the highly explosive materials they usually carry and that their very purpose is to survive for as long as possible in a warzone.

Incidentally, as no-one has noted it yet - this is the cruiser that the Ukrainian soldier on Snake Island told to - er - 'get lost' in the early days of the war.


----------



## DogLover1981

The Russian military claims to be sailing the severely damaged ship to be repaired and the Ukrainian military is claiming to have hit and sunk the ship. It'd be nice to have confirmation on what exactly what has happened from the UK and USA.


----------



## white_shadow

.
For me, this revelation has brought a much-needed few moments of levity..........well, OK, it had me ROFLOL to hear that Putin's "flagship" first, had been hit by *two* _Ukrainian-made_ missiles out of *Odessa* (which Putin is utterly obsessed with taking!), and then, that while it was still afloat, it was _upside down in the water_ (who really knows, but brilliant communications work!) - just hilarious !

And, the latest LOL moment came with the new-age communications announcement that "the entire crew had 'evacuated'.......when in plain speak, they bloody well *abandoned ship* !

_Just too much !_ Oh, to have been a fly-on-the-wall when Putin learned of it......though, on reflection, said fly would likely have been vapourized by the heat in that room !!!
.


----------



## Dave S

DogLover1981 said:


> The Russian military claims to be sailing the severely damaged ship to be repaired and the Ukrainian military is claiming to have hit and sunk the ship. It'd be nice to have confirmation on what exactly what has happened from the UK and USA.


And it has now sunk...............


----------



## Jesthar

Dave S said:


> And it has now sunk...............


One has to wonder how Moscow are going to put a 'positive' spin on this one - sunk by Ukranian missiles, or sunk due to an onboard accident/crew ineptitude?

Neither is going to go down well, one would have thought...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> One has to wonder how Moscow are going to put a 'positive' spin on this one - sunk by Ukranian missiles, or sunk due to an onboard accident/crew ineptitude?
> 
> Neither is going to go down well, one would have thought...


According to CCN TAS has confirmed the sinking. Here's an article I found by Pravda.

https://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/151178-moskva_sinks/

*Moskva missile cruiser sinks during storm - Defence Ministry*


----------



## Magyarmum

Another one ....

https://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspots/151161-moskva_cruiser/

*Moskva cruiser fire: What happened?*


----------



## Siskin

Magyarmum said:


> According to CCN TAS has confirmed the sinking. Here's an article I found by Pravda.
> 
> https://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/151178-moskva_sinks/
> 
> *Moskva missile cruiser sinks during storm - Defence Ministry*


Apparently it's been reclassified by Russia as a submarine doing a special operation 
Or
We must thank the Russians for making a new reef to be colonised by sea life.


----------



## cheekyscrip

It was the same warship which was told “иди в хуй»….


----------



## Happy Paws2

Russia has told the United States there will be "unpredictable consequences" if it refuses to stop sending weapons to Ukraine.

How long before they start to threaten the UK and the rest of Europe.

If he goes on like this, I don't think World War III is far away.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I've put this on Dog Chat but I think he should be on here as well

If only he knew how brave he is...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-61099213f only he knew how brave he is...


----------



## DogLover1981

Putin and his officials are majorly playing with fire here. They, again, do not know what kind of top secret futuristic weapons NATO countries may have behind closed doors. He could find Russia and every major city in Russia leveled to the ground in an hour while finding his nuclear weapons useless against NATO defenses. The rest of the Russian navy may be sunk as an added bonus as well.

There is language from Russian authorities that appears to support the genocide of Ukraine. There's apparently majority support in the states for sending American troops into Ukraine but the president doesn't want to entertain that at the moment. There has been some pretty nasty and even violent protests at Russian embassies all over the place. They are just really playing with fire.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Russia has told the United States there will be "unpredictable consequences" if it refuses to stop sending weapons to Ukraine.
> 
> How long before they start to threaten the UK and the rest of Europe.
> 
> If he goes on like this, I don't think World War III is far away.


https://today.tamu.edu/2022/04/13/i...ation-is-possible-but-not-likely-expert-says/

*In Ukraine Conflict, Nuclear Escalation Is Possible, But Not Likely, Expert Says*
Russia's nuclear arsenal gives it significant leverage - but even using a small atomic bomb would be tremendously costly for Putin and his government, says Texas A&M political science professor Matthew Fuhrmann.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Russia's nuclear arsenal gives it significant leverage - but even using a small atomic bomb would be tremendously costly for Putin and his government, says Texas A&M political science professor Matthew Fuhrmann.


But we aren't dealing with a reasonable man, Putin is deranged he could do anything.


----------



## DogLover1981

Another thought, who knows what would actually happen if Putin decided to use nuclear weapons. It's anybody's guess as to what condition the nuclear weapons are in after seeing the state of the Russian military and all of the apparent corruption in the Russian military. Almost concerning, too.


----------



## stuaz

DogLover1981 said:


> Another thought, who knows what would actually happen if Putin decided to use nuclear weapons. It's anybody's guess as to what condition the nuclear weapons are in after seeing the state of the Russian military and all of the apparent corruption in the Russian military. Almost concerning, too.


Only takes one to cause unimaginable devastation.


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> Only takes one to cause unimaginable devastation.


And contamination and radiation of any Russian military equipment and personnel who were in the affected area.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/explainer--what-would-a-nuclear-war-look-like-/47409712

*Explainer: What would a nuclear war look like?*


----------



## Magyarmum

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/0...il&utm_medium=briefly&utm_campaign=2022-04-19

*At least thirty-seven dead Parents of Russian sailors aboard the Moskva leak information about their sons killed in Ukraine's missile strike*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/0...il&utm_medium=briefly&utm_campaign=2022-04-19
> 
> *At least thirty-seven dead Parents of Russian sailors aboard the Moskva leak information about their sons killed in Ukraine's missile strike*


You have to wonder how on earth Moscow expects to get away with such whopping lies in this day and age...


----------



## Jesthar

UA+Sergey said:


> Це не правда. Екіпаж крейсера - 400-600 людей. Вибух ракет , потім детонація частини боєкомплекту , потім масштабна внутрішня пожежа більш ніж на 50% , про що свідчать сліди диму з елюмінаторів , а в кінець затоплення судна ... можно лише уявити реальні втрати - якщо росія озвучила 100 людей евакуйованих .
> Їм байдуже на втрати, вони майже 10 років готувалися до цього, всі роки говорили у своїх новинах - що Україна - це їх земля, що Українці - це люди, яки заслуговують лише на смерть та рабство.
> Вони вже послали на смерть більше 20 тисяч своїх військових, у 3-4 рази більше поранених... Набирають нових , щоб продовжити вбивства людей моєї країни.
> Вони вбили 20-30 тисяч мирного населення. Близко 5 тисяч військових, які обороняють наше життя...
> Sorry, i bad speak eng, i can't said that's all it eng - y can using translated


Translated version:

_It is not true. The crew of the cruiser - 400-600 people. Missile explosion, then detonation of ammunition, then a large-scale internal fire of more than 50%, as evidenced by traces of smoke from the windows, and the end of the sinking of the ship ... can only imagine real losses - if Russia voiced 100 evacuees.

They don't care about losses, they have been preparing for it for almost 10 years, they have been saying in their news all these years that Ukraine is their land, that Ukrainians are people who deserve only death and slavery.

They have already sent more than 20,000 of their servicemen to death, 3-4 times more wounded ... They are recruiting new ones to continue killing people in my country.

They killed 20-30 thousand civilians. About 5,000 soldiers are defending our lives..._

And my reply:

We know Moscow always tells lies. We are simply amazed that they still think they can get away with telling such BIG lies and not be exposed as liars.

I have a friend who worked in Kyiv for three years as a teacher. Some of the friends she made have been sheltering in the subway there. We very much support Ukraine in this fight!

Edit: with thanks to Google Translate:

Ми знаємо, що Москва завжди говорить неправду. Ми просто вражені тим, що вони все ще думають, що можуть піти з рук говорити таку ВЕЛИКУ брехню і не бути виставленими як брехуни.

У мене є друг, який три роки працював вчителем у Києві. Деякі її друзі сховалися в метро. Ми рішуче підтримуємо Україну в цій боротьбі!


----------



## Magyarmum

@UA+Sergey said

Your translation is 99% correct.
There are constant bombings in our country ... In every city ... They strike at maternity hospitals, ordinary houses, zoos. In my city, they fired a rocket at the botanical garden - why? - just to destroy people and everything in Ukraine ... They are not people.
They have now started using chemical weapons against civilians because their troops cannot defend themselves. They started negotiating with tactical (nuclear) weapons ... I can't imagine how it will end ...


----------



## white_shadow

.
Perhaps someone would explain why *UA+Sergey*'s posts have disappeared....?
.


----------



## Calvine

white_shadow said:


> .
> Perhaps someone would explain why *UA+Sergey*'s posts have disappeared....?
> .


 More than once I have had perfectly inoffensive posts removed - simply because they were in reply to a post that someone obviously thought was inappropriate. Remove one post and all the others related to it go with it. Certainly it's happened to me several times without explanation - speak to a mod maybe?.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Calvine said:


> More than once I have had perfectly inoffensive posts removed - simply because they were in reply to a post that someone obviously thought was inappropriate. Remove one post and all the others relayed to it. Certainly it's happened to me several times without explanation - speak to a mod maybe?.


His account no longer exists apparently?

edit: it seems like it doesn't. not sure. maybe he just decided he wasn't comfortable with his posts being online and deleted them before making his account private.


----------



## Calvine

bmr10 said:


> His account no longer exists apparently?
> 
> edit: it seems like it doesn't. not sure. maybe he just decided he wasn't comfortable with his posts being online and deleted them before making his account private.


Who knows? I don't think I ever heard of him/her or saw any of their posts.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Calvine said:


> Who knows? I don't think I ever heard of him/her or saw any of their posts.


A mystery!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Who knows? I don't think I ever heard of him/her or saw any of their posts.


Nor me.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Who knows? I don't think I ever heard of him/her or saw any of their posts.


It was @Jesthar that quoted him first and translated his post, I don't recall though ever having seen him posting before and certainly not on this thread.

Maybe the owners of the site thinks he's a troll or a Russian hacker of which I understand there are plenty.


----------



## Calvine

bmr10 said:


> A mystery!


Maybe it's Putin in disguise.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> It was @Jesthar that quoted him first and translated his post, I don't recall though ever having seen him posting before and certainly not on this thread.
> 
> Maybe the owners of the site thinks he's a troll or a Russian hacker of which I understand there are plenty.





Calvine said:


> Maybe it's Putin in disguise.


The posts were in Ukrainan and very much anti-Russian, so unlikely. Russian trolls (of whom I have encountered many on other sites!) tend to parrot the Kremlin line (the war is the fault of the West, Ukraninans are Nazis etc.).


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> The posts were in Ukrainan and very much anti-Russian, so unlikely. Russian trolls (of whom I have encountered many on other sites!) tend to parrot the Kremlin line (the war is the fault of the West, Ukraninans are Nazis etc.).


I didn't think he was a Russian troll, I only suggested that the site owners might have thought he was one as a reason why his posts were removed.

An example of what the Russians are fed. Yesterday's Pravda .....

https://english.pravda.ru/opinion/151238-us_empire/

*US empire strikes back: Russia takes the hits, China lives in fear*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I didn't think he was a Russian troll, I only suggested that the site owners might have thought he was one as a reason why his posts were removed.
> 
> An example of what the Russians are fed. Yesterday's Pravda .....
> 
> https://english.pravda.ru/opinion/151238-us_empire/
> 
> *US empire strikes back: Russia takes the hits, China lives in fear*


I know you didn't, just wanted to give context to my reply 

Well, that's going to encourage the Chinese to support Moscaow - not! As to the USA bit, all insult, no substance.

Incidentally, for those of you who like fact driven analysis, the Aussie who did the videos I posted earler has done another one on why russia cannot economically afford a long war:


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> I didn't think he was a Russian troll,


And I didn't honestly think it was Putin - I didn't see the posts - but no-one seems to be able to offer an explanation for where they went or why.


----------



## SusieRainbow

Calvine said:


> And I didn't honestly think it was Putin - I didn't see the posts - but no-one seems to be able to offer an explanation for where they went or why.


I can tell you that I deleted the last post as it was undecipherable to the majority of our members. OK?


----------



## £54etgfb6

SusieRainbow said:


> I can tell you that I deleted the last post as it was undecipherable to the majority of our members. OK?


I didn't know posts on the forum had to be in English, not been on a site that enforces a rule like this before. I kind of welcomed his posts since he was someone living in Ukraine and the rest of us don't. I'm not personally fussed about using a translator but forum rules are forum rules I guess. Thanks for letting us know at least


----------



## StormyThai

Calvine said:


> And I didn't honestly think it was Putin - I didn't see the posts - but no-one seems to be able to offer an explanation for where they went or why.


TBF it is in the rules that we do not have to explain why posts are deleted  
It gets a bit boring see you pop up to have a moan about posts disappearing every single time something gets moderated...if you are able to do a better job then by all means please apply when a position opens up...If you have an issue about how your posts have been moderated then contact a mod that you feel will be fair, or contact the owners.


----------



## Jesthar

And back on topic...

Good gravy! Putin has called off the attack on the steelworks in Mariupol, they're going to try and blockade instead. I suspected they were losing too many experienced/special forces units to try and continue taking it as they were (well, you don't offer two or three surrender notices in quick succession, especially to troops who suspect you will kill them if they do surrender, if you're not desparate to end things), but I did not expect that!

Moscow PR machine is in full swing trying to spin this as a success and a full capture of Mariupol...


----------



## Calvine

SusieRainbow said:


> I can tell you that I deleted the last post as it was undecipherable to the majority of our members. OK?


Thank you - several members seemed unclear what had happened or why. I never saw it, didn't ''miss'' it so simply replied to white_shadow who originally commented on its disappearance.



StormyThai said:


> TBF it is in the rules that we do not have to explain why posts are deleted
> It gets a bit boring see you pop up to have a moan about posts disappearing every single time something gets moderated...if you are able to do a better job then by all means please apply when a position opens up...If you have an issue about how your posts have been moderated then contact a mod that you feel will be fair, or contact the owners.


I think this comment is really uncalled for, rude and overbearing. I am unsure sure why you have to single me out again for your sardonicism? Quite a few people wondered how or why they had gone missing, not just I. no-one was aportioning any blame to anyone. Sorry you are tired of ME ?? popping up and moaning about missing or moderated posts. No-one said anything about any ''mod'' being unfair.


----------



## SbanR

Jesthar said:


> And back on topic...
> 
> Good gravy! Putin has called off the attack on the steelworks in Mariupol, they're going to try and blockade instead. I suspected they were losing too many experienced/special forces units to try and continue taking it as they were (well, you don't offer two or three surrender notices in quick succession, especially to troops who suspect you will kill them if they do surrender, if you're not desparate to end things), but I did not expect that!
> 
> Moscow PR machine is in full swing trying to spin this as a success and a full capture of Mariupol...


From all accounts they won't have to blockade long as the defenders are running out of food?


----------



## Jesthar

SbanR said:


> From all accounts they won't have to blockade long as the defenders are running out of food?


We can only wait and see. All sides have been saying that for weeks as it is, so we can't really know for sure.

Also, if Moscow moves any significant volume of troops, then Ukraine gains options. If Moscow leaves enough troops to carry out the 'not a fly in or out' promise, then they aren't going to free up anywhere near as many troops as they would hope to. So there's still a bit of a catch-22 going on.


----------



## StormyThai

I'm sorry if my post came across as rude.
I guess I felt a bit touchy after seeing you lamenting about inoffensive posts being deleted for no reason again.

I won't derail the thread any further.


----------



## cheekyscrip

This is really East - West war… and we better don’t show our belly.
Which we do.
1939 repeats itself.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> This is really East - West war… and we better don't show our belly.
> Which we do.
> 1939 repeats itself.


The world as it's going to be like .... according to Pravda 

https://english.pravda.ru/world/151353-ukraine_russia_world/

*What will the world be like after Russia's operation in Ukraine?*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> The world as it's going to be like .... according to Pravda
> 
> https://english.pravda.ru/world/151353-ukraine_russia_world/
> 
> *What will the world be like after Russia's operation in Ukraine?*


I dunno what they've been smoking, but it's obviously pretty potent stuff!  Most of the businesses that have pulled out, the russian market makes up only a small percent of their overall market...


----------



## cheekyscrip

We see how the post WW2 order is unravelling…
It did start with Twin Towers but the seed was there when after WW2 the issue of Palestine was left unresolved.
The land grab of Golan Hills and others…
Arab world now is just sitting tight.
USA and allies left Syria, left Afganistán , Putin took over OPEC.
Trump threatened to leave NATO and USA does not want to be a guardian of peace.
So much for America First. Britain First and all that drivel.
Who controls resources has the power. Who was not outsourcing but actually has the production going has the power.
It is decline of the post WW2 order and all that when the climate change is really forcing to reconsider fossil fuels.
Which means that those who built their power on control of the supplies made a move now while the West still is dependent on it.
In coming years if you look at Top15 app Islam will have more followers than any other religion and China will become the biggest world economy.
Our lifestyle as we know it will no longer be sustainable…
If only when Russians were busy grabbing state property we actually took Ukraine and Moldova to EU and NATO.
No one wanted to know about war crimes in Chechnya.
Everyone was trading happily after 2014 and invasion on Crimea.
Same when Hitler took over Austria, then part of Czechia. It was also called “protection “.
Then Poland…
Putin will not stop.


----------



## £54etgfb6

cheekyscrip said:


> In coming years if you look at Top15 app Islam will have more followers than any other religion and China will become the biggest world economy.
> Our lifestyle as we know it will no longer be sustainable…


I apologise sincerely if I've misread your post but you cannot be insinuating that Islam as a religion is harmful????? Apart from being irrelevant to the war currently occurring in Ukraine, that's a very harmful opinion?


----------



## Magyarmum

bmr10 said:


> I apologise sincerely if I've misread your post but you cannot be insinuating that Islam as a religion is harmful????? Apart from being irrelevant to the war currently occurring in Ukraine, that's a very harmful opinion?


I didn't read @cheekyscrip s post like that. IMO she was stating a list of factual events that have led up to the present war in Ukraine. And how along with changes in future such as Islam becoming the predominant religion in the world and the possibility of China of becoming the largest economy the world order will alter. Taken together with all the other facts it could be said Islamic countries have to a greater or lesser degree played a part in the war.

https://www.universitymagazine.ca/the-fastest-growing-religion-in-the-world/

https://www.voanews.com/a/chinas-economy-could-overtake-us-economy-by-2030/6380892.html

You also might like to read this article in The Conversation.

https://theconversation.com/ukraine...e-racist-clash-of-civilizations-theory-178297


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> I didn't read @cheekyscrip s post like that. IMO she was stating a list of factual events that have led up to the present war in Ukraine. And how along with changes in future such as Islam becoming the predominant religion in the world and the possibility of China of becoming the largest economy the world order will alter. Taken together with all the other facts it could be said Islamic countries have to a greater or lesser degree played a part in the war.
> 
> https://www.universitymagazine.ca/the-fastest-growing-religion-in-the-world/
> 
> https://www.voanews.com/a/chinas-economy-could-overtake-us-economy-by-2030/6380892.html
> 
> You also might like to read this article in The Conversation.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/ukraine...e-racist-clash-of-civilizations-theory-178297


My post was not in reply, it was general take on the situation we are now in and it was coming…
Our ruling elite's thinking not beyond next election and their own gain.
That is a problem of democracy.
While dictatorship is for life, but then dictator becomes more and more isolated and hears only what they want to hear… plus if they start ageing , losing their marbles anything happen…
Putin is not the smartest, he came on top because he was most ruthless.

China is very much behind it all…


----------



## Happy Paws2

I saw an interview with Putin yesterday and he looked in pain he was holding the edge of a table as if his life depended on it and his knuckles were almost white. May be his got a life threating illness, well we can always hope.

I've never wished death on anyone before but I wish he die or someone kill him.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Magyarmum said:


> I didn't read @cheekyscrip s post like that. IMO she was stating a list of factual events that have led up to the present war in Ukraine. And how along with changes in future such as Islam becoming the predominant religion in the world and the possibility of China of becoming the largest economy the world order will alter. Taken together with all the other facts it could be said Islamic countries have to a greater or lesser degree played a part in the war.
> 
> https://www.universitymagazine.ca/the-fastest-growing-religion-in-the-world/
> 
> https://www.voanews.com/a/chinas-economy-could-overtake-us-economy-by-2030/6380892.html
> 
> You also might like to read this article in The Conversation.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/ukraine...e-racist-clash-of-civilizations-theory-178297


Yes but what relevance does Islam becoming the most popular religion have to do with Ukraine and Russia? I do not think Islam, or predominantly Islamic faith countries, have contributed to the Ukrainian war at all? I fail to see the connection here. People have been power hungry for all of human history. Britain itself colonised majority of the world through violent tactics in an attempt to amass more land and in the name of spreading the Christian faith. This has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with people's greed for power, in my opinion. I cannot read the post without feeling as if it's a criticism against Islam.


----------



## cheekyscrip

bmr10 said:


> Yes but what relevance does Islam becoming the most popular religion have to do with Ukraine and Russia? I do not think Islam, or predominantly Islamic faith countries, have contributed to the Ukrainian war at all? I fail to see the connection here. People have been power hungry for all of human history. Britain itself colonised majority of the world through violent tactics in an attempt to amass more land and in the name of spreading the Christian faith. This has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with people's greed for power, in my opinion. I cannot read the post without feeling as if it's a criticism against Islam.


I am sorry I wrote about unravelling of post WW2 order.
Ukraine is attacked because West is perceived as weak.

Of course if Arab countries wanted they could increase production of fossil fuels.

They are not.

Western Europe can be independent from Russian suppliers if they did.

USA is seen as supporting Israel in their land grab in Palestine.

Twin Towers attack shows how USA is perceived by most radical fractions.

What happened in Syria, Afganistán paved the path to attack on Ukraine.
First Crimea.. then the rest.
Putin sees NATO as weak, West and USA as weak .
He wants to get back USSR.
China is happy to see USA and EU weak.
Arab countries turned their back .
India is happy to trade with Putin and not interested what Britain thinks of it.
Basically Putin does what he does because he can.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I saw an interview with Putin yesterday and he looked in pain he was holding the edge of a table as if his life depended on it and his knuckles were almost white. May be his got a life threating illness, well we can always hope.
> 
> I've never wished death on anyone before but I wish he die or someone kill him.


 My Oh noticed that . He has read that Putin has cancer and Parkinsons , though whether that is true or not I dont know.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> My Oh noticed that . He has read that Putin has cancer and Parkinsons , though whether that is true or not I dont know.


I have heard that too… the swollen face might be due to the medication he is taking.
Probably because his health is declining he decided to go out with a bang.
Literally.
He can't go to hell soon enough.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> I have heard that too… the swollen face might be due to the medication he is taking.
> Probably because his health is declining he decided to go out with a bang.
> Literally.
> He can't go to hell soon enough.


He could be on steroids they make you look bloated.

I'm not sure that even hell would want him.


----------



## DogLover1981

cheekyscrip said:


> I am sorry I wrote about unravelling of post WW2 order.
> Ukraine is attacked because West is perceived as weak.
> 
> Of course if Arab countries wanted they could increase production of fossil fuels.
> 
> They are not.
> 
> Western Europe can be independent from Russian suppliers if they did.
> 
> USA is seen as supporting Israel in their land grab in Palestine.
> 
> Twin Towers attack shows how USA is perceived by most radical fractions.
> 
> What happened in Syria, Afganistán paved the path to attack on Ukraine.
> First Crimea.. then the rest.
> Putin sees NATO as weak, West and USA as weak .
> He wants to get back USSR.
> China is happy to see USA and EU weak.
> Arab countries turned their back .
> India is happy to trade with Putin and not interested what Britain thinks of it.
> Basically Putin does what he does because he can.


The mediocre response from many countries is bad for everyone because it's likely to increase the amount of nuclear weapons on this planet. I wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine and even Georgia are eventually armed with nuclear weapons. I did read that, already, Japan and South Korea are at least mildly interested in acquiring nuclear weapons after the invasion of Ukraine. Putin has created a more dangerous environment for citizens of Russia, especially over the medium and long term, which at least someone in Russia should care about. Putin is also devastating the Russian economy while also wrecking what's left of the Russian military.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> The mediocre response from many countries is bad for everyone because it's likely to increase the amount of nuclear weapons on this planet. I wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine and even Georgia are eventually armed with nuclear weapons. I did read that, already, Japan and South Korea are at least mildly interested in acquiring nuclear weapons after the invasion of Ukraine. Putin has created a more dangerous environment for citizens of Russia, especially over the medium and long term, which at least someone in Russia should care about. Putin is also devastating the Russian economy while also wrecking what's left of the Russian military.


Yes… and China is watching… if they invaded Siberia now … imagine… 
Russian army in Ukraine, coffers empty and no allies…


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61237519

*Russian energy firm Gazprom has told Poland and Bulgaria it will stop sending gas to the two countries from Wednesday. *

Polish state gas company PGNiG said it had been told all gas deliveries would be halted from 08:00 CET (06:00 GMT).

The Bulgarian Energy Ministry also said it had been informed deliveries would be suspended from Wednesday.

It comes after Russia said "unfriendly" countries must start paying for gas in roubles or it would cut supplies.

Both countries have refused to pay in this way.

PGNiG relies on Gazprom for the majority of its gas imports and bought 53% of its imports from the Russian company in the first quarter of this year.

It described the suspension as a breach of contract, adding that the company would take steps to reinstate the flow of gas.

Bulgaria, which relies on Gazprom for more than 90% of its gas supply, said it had taken steps to find alternative sources but no restrictions on gas consumption were currently required.

The country's energy ministry said Bulgaria had fulfilled its obligations under the current contract with Gazprom and made all required payments.

It added that the new payment system proposed by Russia was in breach of the existing contract.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61237519
> 
> *Russian energy firm Gazprom has told Poland and Bulgaria it will stop sending gas to the two countries from Wednesday. *
> 
> Polish state gas company PGNiG said it had been told all gas deliveries would be halted from 08:00 CET (06:00 GMT).
> 
> The Bulgarian Energy Ministry also said it had been informed deliveries would be suspended from Wednesday.
> 
> It comes after Russia said "unfriendly" countries must start paying for gas in roubles or it would cut supplies.
> 
> Both countries have refused to pay in this way.
> 
> PGNiG relies on Gazprom for the majority of its gas imports and bought 53% of its imports from the Russian company in the first quarter of this year.
> 
> It described the suspension as a breach of contract, adding that the company would take steps to reinstate the flow of gas.
> 
> Bulgaria, which relies on Gazprom for more than 90% of its gas supply, said it had taken steps to find alternative sources but no restrictions on gas consumption were currently required.
> 
> The country's energy ministry said Bulgaria had fulfilled its obligations under the current contract with Gazprom and made all required payments.
> 
> It added that the new payment system proposed by Russia was in breach of the existing contract.


It was to be expected. Putin is hoping to bully the west into backing down by turning off the energy taps - it was his one big trump card.

Right now he NEEDS to force people to pay for energy in roubles or the rouble will collapse again - the draconian internal emergency measures imposed will only prop it up for a short time. If he fails to get any countries to pay up in the not to distant future, then the russian economy will dive further into the toilet, and the war chest dwindles at an ever faster rate.

So if the first countries he threatens (and you will note they have deliberately picked one very big helper of Ukraine and one smaller and therefore hopefully easier to bully country) refuse to give in to the demands, things are going to get very interesting. Put simply, it will be painful on the energy front for those countries for a while, but if those opposed to the russian course of action are willing to absorb a little pain, that pain will quickly be reflected back several orders of magnitude greater on Moscow.


----------



## DogLover1981

I did read that if Russia ever starts blackmailing various countries in Europe over gas, it could make the Chinese government nervous about buying Russian gas or even creating new pipelines to China. Basically, they would be afraid of being blackmailed at some point, possibly decades, in the future. Putin could be hurting Russia dearly here.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> It was to be expected. Putin is hoping to bully the west into backing down by turning off the energy taps - it was his one big trump card.
> 
> Right now he NEEDS to force people to pay for energy in roubles or the rouble will collapse again - the draconian internal emergency measures imposed will only prop it up for a short time. If he fails to get any countries to pay up in the not to distant future, then the russian economy will dive further into the toilet, and the war chest dwindles at an ever faster rate.
> 
> So if the first countries he threatens (and you will note they have deliberately picked one very big helper of Ukraine and one smaller and therefore hopefully easier to bully country) refuse to give in to the demands, things are going to get very interesting. Put simply, it will be painful on the energy front for those countries for a while, but if those opposed to the russian course of action are willing to absorb a little pain, that pain will quickly be reflected back several orders of magnitude greater on Moscow.


Now let's see if Western countries will help Poland, Lithuania and Bulgaria? Share the pain..


----------



## Happy Paws2

I just didn't realise that Europe has been so stupid as to get so reliant on Russia for gas, I mean Russia of all counties are they all mad.


----------



## DogLover1981

Happy Paws2 said:


> I just didn't realise that Europe has been so stupid as to get so reliant on Russia for gas, I main Russia of all counties are they all mad.


I think there was this expectation that the Russian government would become more democratic, more peaceful and less interested in war while having an open market with Europe and the rest of the world. The same assumption was made about China which, while not actively engaging in hot wars, is still definitely a dictatorship. I imagine some people are looking back and feeling rather naive now.


----------



## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> I think there was this expectation that the Russian government would become more democratic, more peaceful and less interested in war while having an open market with Europe and the rest of the world. The same assumption was made about China which, while not actively engaging in hot wars, is still definitely a dictatorship. I imagine some people are looking back and feeling rather naive now.


I think, too, that the Russian invasion of Ukraine, combined with the Chinese indifference to it and even possible passive support for it, has raised a bunch of new concerns about China. I can only imagine the conversations behind closed doors at NATO and across Europe at the moment.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I see the long table came again yesterday when, Putin meet the UN's Secretary General.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61233794


----------



## Jesthar

Latest round of sanctions from Russia: 213 Conservative and 74 Labour politicians (current and former) will be banned from entering Russia.

Can't help but think that will have about as much impact as a marshmallow sledgehammer


----------



## daveos

Breaking News Putin is yet again threatening to use Nuclear weapons against any nations that interferes in Ukraine saying they will not hesitate to use them they will be justified as it is a threat to Russia.
I think Putin is really panicking now his invasion is in tatters phase 1 failed they had to u turn and retreat and now phase 2 is not going so well they have failed to make any significant gains, Also hearing of explosions in Moldova in a Russian enclave where supposed ethnic Russians live, These so called ethnic Russians are as ethnic as a Briton living in Benidorm back in the days of the USSR native people to a area especially the Baltics were forcefully moved out and Russians were moved in.
We must take these threats seriously and confront this bully we don't brag about our nuclear weapons nor does France or the USA, Does he really think they have the best technology I recon the USA have a lot of secret weaponry that is not disclosed yet they have previous form remember the stealth bomber they denied it existed for many years and Area 51 it is not Aliens there but where all new secret systems are tested.
So Russia be very careful you are being watched at all times be careful what you wish for mr Putin.


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> I see the long table came again yesterday when, Putin meet the UN's Secretary General.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61233794


One has to wonder just what he is compensating for... 



daveos said:


> Breaking News Putin is yet again threatening to use Nuclear weapons against any nations that interferes in Ukraine saying they will not hesitate to use them they will be justified as it is a threat to Russia.


He didn't specifically mention nukes, to be fair. He just promised a 'lightning fast' reponse to countries who dared help Ukraine, and made vague references to having things that no-one else can boast about having. Which is clever, as it could refer to some mega-advanced tech developed in secret that could take on the world (unlikely), or to having the world's highest rate of inflation (a distinct possibility  ).

Although given the track record of recent russian 'lightning fast' military maneouvers, if they do launch long range missiles they'll probably end up in a 25 mile long traffic jam somewhere over the Atlantic for two weeks...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> I just didn't realise that Europe has been so stupid as to get so reliant on Russia for gas, I mean Russia of all counties are they all mad.


Because so many politicians and party donors were on boards of Gasprom and some such???
Bow Group etc…
Lots of Russian money lined pockets of party donors behind Brexit.
Lots of Russian money went into party donors and politicians in Germany.
Crimea was taken and sanctions were a joke.


----------



## David C

Watching all this breaking news tonight pitin is unhinged enough to use nukes, to attack other eu countries and us and we do need to take this seriously and be ready for whatever. 
Some might think me mad but I'm stocking up on animal feeds and food for ourselves. I dint yhink we can risk being caught short in that way.


----------



## £54etgfb6

David C said:


> Watching all this breaking news tonight pitin is unhinged enough to use nukes, to attack other eu countries and us and we do need to take this seriously and be ready for whatever.
> Some might think me mad but I'm stocking up on animal feeds and food for ourselves. I dint yhink we can risk being caught short in that way.


I'm not going to lie you'd need an underground, reinforced, nuclear bunker if you wanted to survive a genuine nuclear war with Russia. They own the most nuclear weapons in the world and the second-highest number that is ready to fire. The largest Russian bomb ever tested had the capability to wipe out London, killing millions. Their missiles range from 20-150 kilotons, with the latter large enough to cover many British cities. Even if you are not in the epicentre, the blast will destroy anything above ground and leave fires in its wake. That is not to mention the wider consequences such as radiation in water and food sources for those who do survive.

I'm not passing judgement on whether Russia will or won't, there's no benefit to that in my opinion, but I do think it's probably best to take the news with a pinch of salt and not give in to the sensationalism. Realistically, countries have very little to gain from a nuclear war and it is usually (unless you're America) used as a threat with little intent behind it. There is no feasible way to prepare for a nuclear war unless you are very rich.


----------



## DogLover1981

David C said:


> Watching all this breaking news tonight pitin is unhinged enough to use nukes, to attack other eu countries and us and we do need to take this seriously and be ready for whatever.
> Some might think me mad but I'm stocking up on animal feeds and food for ourselves. I dint yhink we can risk being caught short in that way.


I think more than anything, we'd be in *extremely* uncharted territory, if nuclear weapons were used. Nuclear weapons haven't been used in conflict since World War 2 and who knows what compartmentalized and top secret technology there could be out there amongst NATO countries to defend against or deflect nuclear weapons. Putin and his officials may realize that too. If Putin decided to use nuclear weapons anyways, he may find the weapons neutralized or deflected somehow and all major Russian cities leveled. All while Europe is largely unaffected.


----------



## Magyarmum

daveos said:


> Breaking News Putin is yet again threatening to use Nuclear weapons against any nations that interferes in Ukraine saying they will not hesitate to use them they will be justified as it is a threat to Russia.
> I think Putin is really panicking now his invasion is in tatters phase 1 failed they had to u turn and retreat and now phase 2 is not going so well they have failed to make any significant gains, Also hearing of explosions in Moldova in a Russian enclave where supposed ethnic Russians live, These so called ethnic Russians are as ethnic as a Briton living in Benidorm back in the days of the USSR native people to a area especially the Baltics were forcefully moved out and Russians were moved in.
> We must take these threats seriously and confront this bully we don't brag about our nuclear weapons nor does France or the USA, Does he really think they have the best technology I recon the USA have a lot of secret weaponry that is not disclosed yet they have previous form remember the stealth bomber they denied it existed for many years and Area 51 it is not Aliens there but where all new secret systems are tested.
> So Russia be very careful you are being watched at all times be careful what you wish for mr Putin.


To correct your comment about "so called ethnic Russians" in Moldova, you might like to read the article posted below. There is also an ethnic Hungarian population living in the Ukraine.

https://www.refworld.org/docid/49749ce228.html

*World Directory of Minorities and Indigenous Peoples - Moldova : Russians and Russian-speakers*


----------



## Cully

I don't think we can discount anything coming out of Russia. He is mad and has absolutely no conscience about the consequences his madness brings. His only intention is to get his own way and will stop at nothing to achieve it. Any attempt at peace talks is just fuel to his determination.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Because so many politicians and party donors were on boards of Gasprom and some such???
> Bow Group etc…
> Lots of Russian money lined pockets of party donors behind Brexit.
> Lots of Russian money went into party donors and politicians in Germany.
> Crimea was taken and sanctions were a joke.


I think a lot of the tories and big business in the UK had money in Russia and Russia in the UK.



David C said:


> Watching all this breaking news tonight pitin is unhinged enough to use nukes, to attack other eu countries and us and we do need to take this seriously and be ready for whatever.
> Some might think me mad but I'm stocking up on animal feeds and food for ourselves. I dint yhink we can risk being caught short in that way.


He is unhinged and if I had room I might think about stocking up as well, I found what he said last night is very worrying.


----------



## DogLover1981

American officials have said that so far they have seen no changes within Russia regarding their nuclear weapons. Basically, it's all talk at this point.


----------



## Magyarmum

bmr10 said:


> I'm not going to lie you'd need an underground, reinforced, nuclear bunker if you wanted to survive a genuine nuclear war with Russia. They own the most nuclear weapons in the world and the second-highest number that is ready to fire. The largest Russian bomb ever tested had the capability to wipe out London, killing millions. Their missiles range from 20-150 kilotons, with the latter large enough to cover many British cities. Even if you are not in the epicentre, the blast will destroy anything above ground and leave fires in its wake. That is not to mention the wider consequences such as radiation in water and food sources for those who do survive.
> 
> I'm not passing judgement on whether Russia will or won't, there's no benefit to that in my opinion, but I do think it's probably best to take the news with a pinch of salt and not give in to the sensationalism. Realistically, countries have very little to gain from a nuclear war and it is usually (unless you're America) used as a threat with little intent behind it. There is no feasible way to prepare for a nuclear war unless you are very rich.


to put it into a little more perspective.

https://www.nationalreview.com/the-...at-the-risk-of-a-putin-ordered-tactical-nuke/

*A Hard Look at the Risk of a Putin-Ordered Tactical Nuke*


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> I think a lot of the tories and big business in the UK had money in Russia and Russia in the UK.
> 
> He is unhinged and if I had room I might think about stocking up as well, I found what he said last night is very worrying.


Pravda's version of what Putin said.

https://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/151492-putin_azovstal/

*Putin: If someone intervenes in Ukraine, Russia's strikes will be lightning fast*


----------



## Magyarmum

Reports just in........

https://thehill.com/policy/internat...ed-ukrainians-trying-to-surrender-in-donetsk/

*US cites 'credible' reports that Russia executed Ukrainians trying to surrender in Donetsk*


----------



## daveos

I think Russias aim at the minute is trying to intimidate and scare the west with all the talk of nuclear weapons, They are probably hoping for the peoples of the west to protest and denounce involvement in Ukraine I think that is the main aim at the minute.
I believe Putin is mad but would he really want his beloved Russia his family and his people all dead? I really hope not, I also think he would have used chemical weapons by now if it was not for the wests response that seems to have stoped him so far.


----------



## Karl43

David C said:


> Watching all this breaking news tonight pitin is unhinged enough to use nukes, to attack other eu countries and us and we do need to take this seriously and be ready for whatever.
> Some might think me mad but I'm stocking up on animal feeds and food for ourselves. I dint yhink we can risk being caught short in that way.


I don't believe he will use nuclear weapons, it's really not in his best interest. There is maybe a slight chance he will actually use them on Ukraine if facing total defeat although I don't think he will Strike a NATO country

I'm utterly unconcerned about this.


----------



## Boxer123

Karl43 said:


> I don't believe he will use nuclear weapons, it's really not in his best interest. There is maybe a slight chance he will actually use them on Ukraine if facing total defeat although I don't think he will Strike a NATO country
> 
> I'm utterly unconcerned about this.


I'm glad one of us are  this thread is the stuff of nightmares.


----------



## Beth78

I both don't believe the warning about nukes and all-out war but also I am stocked up on animal and human food just incase something might happen.

The thought of war in Britain and all it would evolve is a terrible thing.


----------



## Karl43

Beth78 said:


> I both don't believe the warning about nukes and all-out war but also I am stocked up on animal and human food just incase something might happen.
> 
> The thought of war in Britain and all it would evolve is a terrible thing.


I may be a walking contradiction, because although I don't believe it will happen ,I have actually made preparations incase it does


----------



## Boxer123

Honestly is there any point of prepping if all out nuclear war did happen I would hope I’d go in the initial blast.


----------



## Karl43

Boxer123 said:


> Honestly is there any point of prepping if all out nuclear war did happen I would hope I'd go in the initial blast.


I don't live near a city or any major military target so it will be worth me giving it a go, because I think any main danger for my location will be radiation..

Also I read a nuclear attack could be a "restrained" attack and not necessarily a bombardement of every major city.

Even if London was targeted ,and i'm 130 miles from London, it's still worth prepping due to nuclear Fallout


----------



## Siskin

Where I live is in a close enough area of what would be considered by enemy forces as a place to eradicate, so the initial blast would get us which I would be very relieved about as trying to survive the aftermath at my age would be a nightmare. We are currently on the suffolk coast not far from Sizewell so might be considered a place to drop something nasty on.
I’ve no idea how big a bomb Putin actually has, he probably is happy to boast he has more then he actually has. A big bomb would probably take out most of Britain.


----------



## David C

Boxer123 said:


> I'm glad one of us are  this thread is the stuff of nightmares.


Exactly, my stress levels are through the roof worrying about it.


----------



## Boxer123

David C said:


> Exactly, my stress levels are through the roof worrying about it.


 The word has seemed a scary place the last few years.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Siskin said:


> Where I live is in a close enough area of what would be considered by enemy forces as a place to eradicate, so the initial blast would get us which I would be very relieved about as trying to survive the aftermath at my age would be a nightmare. We are currently on the suffolk coast not far from Sizewell so might be considered a place to drop something nasty on.
> I've no idea how big a bomb Putin actually has, he probably is happy to boast he has more then he actually has. A big bomb would probably take out most of Britain.


The largest tested nuclear bomb belonged to Russia and came in at 50 megatons. They have admitted that they own plans for a 100 megaton version but have not admitted creating one. Obviously, nobody knows what weapons countries have build in secret.

For reference, the bombs dropped by America on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 15 and 25 kilotons respectively. 1 megaton, as you can imagine, is equal to 1000 kilotons. So, the most powerful bomb on record, built by Russia, was 2000 times as powerful as the one dropped on Nagasaki. As I mentioned in my earlier post, 50 megatons completely covers the London area, with the blast spreading out across England.

With the radiation produced from a bomb of that size, preparation is pointless (imo) as even out with the blast zone, radioactive dust would be carried via wind to other areas of the country. Radiation is not reversible and is the deadliest effect nuclear attacks and nuclear spillages have as it remains within the human body and the ecosystem.

ETA: This last point is not quite relevant in terms of the bomb I am referring to in the post. According to Jesthar: "Interestingly, because of it's design the Tsar is technically one of the 'cleanest' nuclear devices ever detonated with very little fallout (97% non-radioactive yield). Test personnel arriving at the epicentre a scant 2 hours later experienced virtually no risk of contamination.".


----------



## kimthecat

I guess one day , I might be refugee fleeing from London


----------



## daveos

Please guys try not to worry to much it is not worth getting really stressed about, I also believe a solution- dialog would happen before it got to bad would happen.
Everybody would loose if it happened the whole of the northern hemisphere would be changed forever back to the Stone Age only worse.


----------



## David C

bmr10 said:


> With the radiation produced from a bomb of that size, preparation is pointless (imo) as even out with the blast zone, radioactive dust would be carried via wind to other areas of the country. Radiation is not reversible and is the deadliest effect nuclear attacks and nuclear spillages have as it remains within the human body and the ecosystem.


So what do you suggest those well away from the initial blast zone do? Not bother prepping and end up starving to death because you've not prepared or just kill ourselves to save starving to death.. 
I think I'd rather do as I'm doing and stock up on canned and jars of food for us and sacks of food and wet food for the catsxand dogs.


----------



## Jesthar

bmr10 said:


> The largest tested nuclear bomb belonged to Russia and came in at 50 megatons. They have admitted that they own plans for a 100 megaton version but have not admitted creating one. Obviously, nobody knows what weapons countries have build in secret.
> 
> For reference, the bombs dropped by America on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 15 and 25 kilotons respectively. 1 megaton, as you can imagine, is equal to 1000 kilotons. So, the most powerful bomb on record, built by Russia, was 2000 times as powerful as the one dropped on Nagasaki. As I mentioned in my earlier post, 50 megatons completely covers the London area, with the blast spreading out across England.
> 
> With the radiation produced from a bomb of that size, preparation is pointless (imo) as even out with the blast zone, radioactive dust would be carried via wind to other areas of the country. Radiation is not reversible and is the deadliest effect nuclear attacks and nuclear spillages have as it remains within the human body and the ecosystem.


The 50 megaton bomb (the 'Tsar Bomb') was a one off gravity bomb, only built and detonated to exert political and psychological pressure on the US. It was never practical in terms of being an actual weapon. It was 8m long, over 2m wide, weighed in at 27 tonnes and needed a HEAVILY modified Tu-95 'Bear' bomber just to drop it (much the same as Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs required heavily modifed Lancasters in WW2). They never developed a missile system capable of carrying it, so even if they did have a spare Tsar lying around the and the plane still survives, the Bear is subsonic so there would be plenty of time to shoot it down with modern weapons systems.

Interestingly, because of it's design the Tsar is technically one of the 'cleanest' nuclear devices ever detonated with very little fallout (97% non-radioactive yield). Test personnel arriving at the epicentre a scant 2 hours later experienced virtually no risk of contamination.


----------



## £54etgfb6

David C said:


> So what do you suggest those well away from the initial blast zone do? Not bother prepping and end up starving to death because you've not prepared or just kill ourselves to save starving to death..
> I think I'd rather do as I'm doing and stock up on canned and jars of food for us and sacks of food and wet food for the catsxand dogs.


I was just stating my opinion on preparation, in response to someone who said that they felt trying to survive after a nuclear bomb would be a nightmare since I feel the same.

In general, I don't see any point in preparing for or worrying about circumstances I have zero control over. If there was a genuine nuclear war and Britain was involved I personally believe that very few people would survive. I do not see any benefit in spending money and time stockpiling for an event that, in my opinion, most likely will not occur and if it does, my stockpiles will probably be pointless as I'll die from the blast or radiation.

Obviously, not everyone feels the same as me. I'm not telling people what to do and not what to do, merely advising that we try avoid falling into spirals of panic and listen to what experts are saying on the topic.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Jesthar said:


> The 50 megaton bomb (the 'Tsar Bomb') was a one off gravity bomb, only built and detonated to exert political and psychological pressure on the US. It was never practical in terms of being an actual weapon. It was 8m long, over 2m wide, weighed in at 27 tonnes and needed a HEAVILY modified Tu-95 'Bear' bomber just to drop it (much the same as Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs required heavily modifed Lancasters in WW2). They never developed a missile system capable of carrying it, so even if they did have a spare Tsar lying around the and the plane still survives, the Bear is subsonic so there would be plenty of time to shoot it down with modern weapons systems.
> 
> Interestingly, because of it's design the Tsar is technically one of the 'cleanest' nuclear devices ever detonated with very little fallout (97% non-radioactive yield). Test personnel arriving at the epicentre a scant 2 hours later experienced virtually no risk of contamination.


I did respond to OP's comment in the past tense in reference to how big a bomb Russia owns. I wasn't really making a critique on how we'd fare since, as far as we know, there is no copy of the bomb in existence, more so giving an example of the nuclear power that Russia has possessed in terms of damage capability. Whether it is feasible for usage in war or not, that is the biggest bomb they have had.

I did not know the information about the fallout- very interesting! I would assume this technique would be ideal if Russia were wanting to target Ukraine as they will plan to use the country's arable land for sure.


----------



## Magyarmum

Karl43 said:


> I don't believe he will use nuclear weapons, it's really not in his best interest. There is maybe a slight chance he will actually use them on Ukraine if facing total defeat although I don't think he will Strike a NATO country
> 
> I'm utterly unconcerned about this.


Bully for you! Maybe you'd feel you had cause for concern if like me you lived slightly more than 200 miles by road from Lviv

And about 150 miles as a missile flies.


----------



## stuaz

This is a interesting site if you want to see the different bombs and the effects for the surrounding areas.

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

I would however say that the chance of an all out nuclear war with missiles flying to the UK is slim to none. Using tactical battlefield nuclear devices though… that's a whole different possibility….


----------



## Karl43

Magyarmum said:


> Bully for you! Maybe you'd feel you had cause for concern if like me you lived slightly more than 200 miles by road from Lviv
> 
> And about 150 miles as a missile flies.


Probably yes.

Let me just clarify. I'm unconcerned as an English citizen living in England about any nuclear bombs dropping on this country.

I don't mean that i'm generally unconcerned about any of it


----------



## Karl43

David C said:


> So what do you suggest those well away from the initial blast zone do? Not bother prepping and end up starving to death because you've not prepared or just kill ourselves to save starving to death..
> I think I'd rather do as I'm doing and stock up on canned and jars of food for us and sacks of food and wet food for the catsxand dogs.


I've looked into it and radiation actually drops to relatively safe levels pretty quickly.

If you can hold up for a few weeks in your house you're in with a good chance.

I'm with you mate ,I would rather have a month's worth of food and water and a battery operated radio and sit and chill in my home best I could.

For all the people who don't stock up even on water, they will literally die within 3 days from dehydration.


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> This is a interesting site if you want to see the different bombs and the effects for the surrounding areas.
> 
> https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
> 
> I would however say that the chance of an all out nuclear war with missiles flying to the UK is slim to none. Using tactical battlefield nuclear devices though… that's a whole different possibility….


My thoughts exactly!

According to today's Pravda airstrikes using Caliber missiles on Poland and Romania will be the first NATO targets for the Russians.

https://english.pravda.ru/world/151458-poland_romania/

*Poland and Romania first candidates for Caliber missile strikes*

https://interestingengineering.com/russia-kalibr-weapon-ukraine

*Russia's 3M14 Kalibr: What to know about Putin's weapon against Ukraine*


----------



## Linda Weasel

I was thinking of you, @Magyarmum , when they said on our news that Hungary was one of the countries where your gas and oil supplies are cut off.

Is it affecting you?


----------



## Magyarmum

Linda Weasel said:


> I was thinking of you, @Magyarmum , when they said on our news that Hungary was one of the countries where your gas and oil supplies are cut off.
> 
> Is it affecting you?


That's very kind of you to think of me. Our gas and oil supplies haven't been cut off. Hungary is heavily dependent on oil and gas from Russia and along with Austria (I believe) we decided to pay in roubles.

I do have gas central hearing and cook with gas, but also have a microwave and small electric cooker. It's warm enough now to turn off the heating and on colder days I have wood burning stoves in every room, plus a good stock of logs Two of the stoves I can also cook on if necessary so having no oil and gas actually would be more of an inconvenience than anything else.

I'm more worried about being in the flight path for stray missiles overshooting Ukraine and landing on my roof!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> That's very kind of you to think of me. Our gas and oil supplies haven't been cut off. Hungary is heavily dependent on oil and gas from Russia and along with Austria (I believe) we decided to pay in roubles.
> 
> I do have gas central hearing and cook with gas, but also have a microwave and small electric cooker. It's warm enough now to turn off the heating and on colder days I have wood burning stoves in every room, plus a good stock of logs Two of the stoves I can also cook on if necessary so having no oil and gas actually would be more of an inconvenience than anything else.
> 
> I'm more worried about being in the flight path for stray missiles overshooting Ukraine and landing on my roof!


Glad you are are,,, but a missile landing on your roof now that does worry me.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> My thoughts exactly!
> 
> According to today's Pravda airstrikes using Caliber missiles on Poland and Romania will be the first NATO targets for the Russians.
> 
> https://english.pravda.ru/world/151458-poland_romania/
> 
> *Poland and Romania first candidates for Caliber missile strikes*


"These countries will not survive a Caliber missile attack either physically or mentally."

Isn't that pretty much what they thought about Ukraine?


----------



## Linda Weasel

Magyarmum said:


> That's very kind of you to think of me. Our gas and oil supplies haven't been cut off. Hungary is heavily dependent on oil and gas from Russia and along with Austria (I believe) we decided to pay in roubles.
> 
> I do have gas central hearing and cook with gas, but also have a microwave and small electric cooker. It's warm enough now to turn off the heating and on colder days I have wood burning stoves in every room, plus a good stock of logs Two of the stoves I can also cook on if necessary so having no oil and gas actually would be more of an inconvenience than anything else.
> 
> I'm more worried about being in the flight path for stray missiles overshooting Ukraine and landing on my roof!


@Magyarmum . Pleased you're ok so far. Paint a target on your roof and they'll no doubt miss.


----------



## Jesthar

I think Russia are really losing the plot - first of all they claim Hitler "had Jewish blood" and that "the most ardent anti-Semites are usually Jews", and then when Israel calls them out on it and demands an apology, double down with accusing Israel of making "anti-historical statements... which largely explain why the current Israeli government supports the neo-Nazi regime in Kyiv".

Russia, you're drunk. Go home!


----------



## Calvine

Boxer123 said:


> I'm glad one of us are  this thread is the stuff of nightmares.


Yes, there's Putin who seems totally unhinged - and then we have Biden with dementia. You can only hope that they take advice from more someone more balanced. Putin is ill, supposedly, so what happens if he is out of action? Who will replace him?


----------



## Calvine

Karl43 said:


> I have actually made preparations incase it does


I'm guessing that includes plenty cat food to stop the black and white one on your avatar eating your right ear.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> Yes, there's Putin who seems totally unhinged - and then we have Biden with dementia. You can only hope that they take advice from more someone more balanced. Putin is ill, supposedly, so what happens if he is out of action? Who will replace him?


I doubt Putin is taking advice from anyone and if he is then they too are unhinged!


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Yes, there's Putin who seems totally unhinged - and then we have Biden with dementia. You can only hope that they take advice from more someone more balanced. Putin is ill, supposedly, so what happens if he is out of action? Who will replace him?


Let's hope he shares a similar fate to Stalin,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228382/

*Stalin's mysterious death*


----------



## Jesthar

Given we have a few worried about the possibility of nukes entering the narrative, I thought I'd share the latest video by the excellent Perun in which he considers the nuclear escalation question. It's a good length, but laced with Aussie humour and common sense, and concludes the answer to whether or not things will go that far is almosct certainly 'No'


----------



## cheekyscrip

Meanwhile Polish press published information that Putin is preparing cholera epidemic and will officially declare war on Ukraine on 9th May - that means general conscription…
Totally mad.


----------



## Dog Walker Woman

Very sad to hear this, beautiful young woman's life lost for nothing  ! 
Hope the animals will be OK
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=713884090031025&set=a.104752290944211


----------



## Magyarmum

Heartbreaking!

Warning : Not for the faint hearted.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/0...il&utm_medium=briefly&utm_campaign=2022-05-11

*Azovstal's last defenders*


----------



## DogLover1981

Russian diplomats are worried about their safety now. People have pretty strong thoughts about the war in Ukraine. It is crazy and I don't condone the violence.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-diplomats-spurned-europes-capitals-2022-05-11/


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> Russian diplomats are worried about their safety now. People have pretty strong thoughts about the war in Ukraine. It is crazy and I don't condone the violence.
> https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-diplomats-spurned-europes-capitals-2022-05-11/


There is no information the person was Polish who has done that. There are about 2 mln Ukrainians in Poland, many of them saw their whole life destroyed and their loved ones dying.
Can you blame them for their strong feelings?
Russian diplomats should realise that and they have been warned.
Celebration of V day by Russians in Poland was not the best idea.
It could have been much worse .
I wonder if they were sent out so anti Polish propaganda has more to write about and it might have been a provocation too.


----------



## DogLover1981

cheekyscrip said:


> There is no information the person was Polish who has done that. There are about 2 mln Ukrainians in Poland, many of them saw their whole life destroyed and their loved ones dying.
> Can you blame them for their strong feelings?
> Russian diplomats should realise that and they have been warned.
> Celebration of V day by Russians in Poland was not the best idea.
> It could have been much worse .
> I wonder if they were sent out so anti Polish propaganda has more to write about and it might have been a provocation too.


A good point. They were warned and I do wonder if the Russian diplomat went solely for propaganda purposes.

It's rather stupid for Russian diplomats to attend events in a country (Poland) with 2 million Ukrainian refugees at the moment. Many of them have seen their lives ruined and possibly their friends or family killed.  I imagine many are pretty angry at the moment.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> A good point. They were warned and I do wonder if the Russian diplomat went solely for propaganda purposes.
> 
> It's rather stupid for Russian diplomats to attend events in a country (Poland) with 2 million Ukrainian refugees at the moment. Many of them have seen their lives ruined and possibly their friends or family killed.  I imagine many are pretty angry at the moment.


Yes , very, very angry. Not happy with children being killed, abducted, raped. Civilians shot , tortured, executed.
Not mention the animals too…


----------



## DogLover1981

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes , very, very angry. Not happy with children being killed, abducted, raped. Civilians shot , tortured, executed.
> Not mention the animals too…


I have seen reports of people's dogs being intentionally shot to death by Russian soldiers. In a war environment, that could lead to violence towards the soldiers from dog owners.

I did see a video of a lady in Ukraine cursing Putin and in tears because her dog was injured by shrapnel. The dog was OK but there was a measurable amount of blood everywhere. That dog was likely in a lot of pain too.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Now this is worrying. Putin will not be happy..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61420185


----------



## DogLover1981

Finland and Sweden are very likely join NATO soon and Finnish officials view the talk from Russia as saber-rattling. Just recently a Hungarian official has said they would not block Ukraine from joining NATO and the EU. That surprised me a little. Ukraine may join NATO at some point in the near or medium term as well. This is all the complete opposite of what Putin wanted and the invasion of Ukraine has caused it. O.O


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> Now this is worrying. Putin will not be happy..
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61420185


Relax - it's just the usual genetalia waving on the part of Moscow.

It is very, very unlikely that Moscow will order a physical attack - of any kind - on Finland. The Finns have maintained significant miltary strength, including conscription and mandatory reservist enrolment, and unlike Russia it's more than just a numbers game. Like Ukraine, they have invested time, effort and money into building a military designed to defend against attack by a specific antagonistic next door neighbour, and that neighbour no longer has the element of surprise that it did when it invaded Ukraine - not that they used that surprise to any real advantage.

Plus, of course, Russian already has their hands more than full in Ukraine. If WW2 taught us anything, it is that opening a second front against another significant enemy whilst you are still slugging it out with another is not a sensible plan. I don't think even Putin is harebrained enough to split his remaining forces that way for starters, and secondly it would be extremely hard to justify a second 'special military operation' in Finland. And I do mean 'remaining' forces, because as long as this remains a 'special military operation' and Moscow remains officially NOT at war, no reserves can be called up and no conscripts can be used outside of Russia. That means personnel losses can't be replaced, and given the losses they have already taken, they really can't afford to start more fights. The UK have already said they will support Finland if they are attacked during the process of NATO ratification, and other EU countries may well follow suit.

And the chances of Putin taking any nuclear option are very remote - for starters it would go against their own doctrine as to when they can use nukes, secondly they are of zero tactical advantage in Ukraine (or Finland), and thirdly it would be the most effective means possible of making sure ALL the world (with the possible exception of North Korea) united against Moscow and double, maybe treble down on sanctions. Even China wouldn't want to be friends with a neighbour who would actually push the big red button. Strange as it seems, the real power of nuclear weapons lies in NOT using them.


----------



## Karl43

Calvine said:


> I'm guessing that includes plenty cat food to stop the black and white one on your avatar eating your right ear.


That's kitten Chewie! Lol


----------



## DogLover1981

Putin has already shown that he's afraid of NATO. Russia invaded Ukraine while avoiding all of the NATO countries and no NATO country has been touched by anything so far. He doesn't want to escalate the conflict and it's one hell of a trip wire. Putin has shown potential skittishness about cyber attacks as well.


----------



## Karl43

DogLover1981 said:


> Putin has already shown that he's afraid of NATO. Russia invaded Ukraine while avoiding all of the NATO countries and no NATO country has been touched by anything so far. He doesn't want to escalate the conflict and it's one hell of a trip wire. Putin has shown potential skittishness about cyber attacks as well.


He is definitely running scared. I think by invading Ukraine he's exposed himself and Russia as weak and not the incredible super power that we have all been led to believe for decades


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes , very, very angry. Not happy with children being killed, abducted, raped. Civilians shot , tortured, executed.
> Not mention the animals too…


I'm surprised they didn't lynch him!

I lived in South Africa during the apartheid era and when I went back to the UK on holiday,my brother in law's parents refused to speak to me. And I was told several times by former friends I was a traitor for living in SA.

What happened in South Africa at that time pales in comparison to what is happening in Ukraine.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> Relax - it's just the usual genetalia waving on the part of Moscow.
> 
> It is very, very unlikely that Moscow will order a physical attack - of any kind - on Finland. The Finns have maintained significant miltary strength, including conscription and mandatory reservist enrolment, and unlike Russia it's more than just a numbers game. Like Ukraine, they have invested time, effort and money into building a military designed to defend against attack by a specific antagonistic next door neighbour, and that neighbour no longer has the element of surprise that it did when it invaded Ukraine - not that they used that surprise to any real advantage.
> 
> Plus, of course, Russian already has their hands more than full in Ukraine. If WW2 taught us anything, it is that opening a second front against another significant enemy whilst you are still slugging it out with another is not a sensible plan. I don't think even Putin is harebrained enough to split his remaining forces that way for starters, and secondly it would be extremely hard to justify a second 'special military operation' in Finland. And I do mean 'remaining' forces, because as long as this remains a 'special military operation' and Moscow remains officially NOT at war, no reserves can be called up and no conscripts can be used outside of Russia. That means personnel losses can't be replaced, and given the losses they have already taken, they really can't afford to start more fights. The UK have already said they will support Finland if they are attacked during the process of NATO ratification, and other EU countries may well follow suit.
> 
> And the chances of Putin taking any nuclear option are very remote - for starters it would go against their own doctrine as to when they can use nukes, secondly they are of zero tactical advantage in Ukraine (or Finland), and thirdly it would be the most effective means possible of making sure ALL the world (with the possible exception of North Korea) united against Moscow and double, maybe treble down on sanctions. Even China wouldn't want to be friends with a neighbour who would actually push the big red button. Strange as it seems, the real power of nuclear weapons lies in NOT using them.


Maybe not at the moment but the man is unstable enough to do anything.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> Finland and Sweden are very likely join NATO soon and Finnish officials view the talk from Russia as saber-rattling. Just recently a Hungarian official has said they would not block Ukraine from joining NATO and the EU. That surprised me a little. Ukraine may join NATO at some point in the near or medium term as well. This is all the complete opposite of what Putin wanted and the invasion of Ukraine has caused it. O.O


Why would you be surprised? As far as I'm aware Hungary has never opposed Finland and Sweden joining NATO. The only thing Hungary is against are the sanctions on oil and gas because the country is 80/90% dependent on Russia to supply us. Unlike most other EU countries Hungary has no sea ports or alternative pipe lines to receive oil and gas from elsewhere, The article below explains far better than I can.

https://www.ft.com/content/6b87e13c-8059-4b49-b416-332049155f50

This week, Hungary together with other NATO members have been holding the"Black Swan" military exercises in the south of the country.

https://xpatloop.com/channels/2022/05/black-swan-2022-exercises-held-in-szolnok.html#:~:text=The Black Swan 2022 international,equipment, according to a statement.


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> Maybe not at the moment but the man is unstable enough to do anything.


Seriously, it's just nuclear posturing - it's a Thing. I highly recommend watching the video I posted a few pages back on Russian nuclear doctrine (it's easy to watch and laced with Aussie humour), why all this posturing is expected, and why you SHOULDN'T be scared. There's a TL:DR summary only a few minutes in if you don't fancy watching the whole thing.

Putin is rattled, sure, but he's not an idiot. What the news call "sabre rattling" is ultimately just political posturing, and all a part of the expected diplomatic dance.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> Putin is rattled, sure, *but he's not an idiot. * What the news call "sabre rattling" is ultimately just political posturing, and all a part of the expected diplomatic dance.


Are you sure about that, I think his lost his marbles and could to do something silly now Finland and Sweden are joining NATO.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Are you sure about that, I think his lost his marbles and could to do something silly now Finland and Sweden are joining NATO.


The reason he won't do anything silly is BECAUSE Finland and Sweden are (most likely) to be joining NATO


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> Are you sure about that, I think his lost his marbles and could to do something silly now Finland and Sweden are joining NATO.


As sure as I can be. You don't get to be a leader in Russia if you are an idiot, you'll get a (probably literal) knife in the back very quickly. And you certainly don't get to STAY leader the way he does if you are not at the top of your game, as you are essentially an alpha shark ruling a load of other sharks by a complex system of coercian, intimidation and favour. He is not a nice man, and he is not a kind man, but he's not stupid - or he'd already have had a nice, tragic heart attack and passed away peacefully in his sleep (well, that would be public story). Right now he's in a deep pile of self-shovelled doo-doo, and probably more worried about his personal safety than anything else.

You have to remember that the intention with Ukraine was to thunder-run Blitzkreig style down to Kyiv and a few other major cities, decapitate the government (possibly literally), install a puppet government and be done and dusted before the West could do more than hand-wringing. Yes, that was a dumb plan given they have completely the wrong kind of military for such a campaign, but they thought they would take Ukraine completely by surprise the way they had in Crimea and the shock of being invaded would cause Ukraine to cave in very quickly.

As an aside, I do wonder what russian military intelligence was playing at when it came to analysing Ukranian capablilty. It's pretty clear to us outsiders that Ukraine was determined there wouldn't be another Crimea situation and had developed their forces specifically to repel a mass Russian invasion (though there are many things they could have done better, of course), so how on earth did Russia miss it? Unless they didn't, and were just relying on the shock and awe effect, which is also extremely daft.

Either way, Putin did NOT intend this to be a long war. And if Ukraine hadn't not only held it's own in those initial days, but also given the first invasion waves such a good hiding and giving the West both time and inspiration to act, then it may not have been. Now his troops are drifting into a territorial war of attrition with ever less capable equipment (and currently still using poor tactics), whilst the Ukrainians are receiving ever better equipment and using it in inspired fashion. Before the invasion the world was genuinely worried about russia'a military capability. Now they are most definitely not. That is all down to Putin, and he needs to save face - and lauching nukes is not the way to do that.


----------



## DogLover1981

It's all speculation on my part... I think Putin or his officials may have either misjudged the situation on the ground or were unaware of the culture, political environment and political culture of Ukraine.

You can tell that the people in Ukraine *love* their country and their culture, are willing to defend themselves and their country, have been preparing to do so since the invasion of Crimea. I remember the images of civilians making molotov cocktails in the beginning of the conflict. Even in areas currently under Russian control, they are encountering varying degrees of civilian resistance and I've seen reports of possible guerrilla warfare.

I did read that at least some militaries tend to avoid brutal war tactics as it can become counterproductive. It can make people even more willing to fight back. The Russian military may have thought they can frighten and intimidate by torturing, raping and killing civilians but it again, just as likely made them angry and even more willing to fight back. In this case, it even accelerated support for Ukraine throughout Europe.


----------



## DogLover1981

I have also seen reports of Russian soldiers randomly shooting dogs to death for example. Those Russian soldiers, being an invading force in a war time environment, would have new concerns if they shot or hurt a dog of mine. You *don't* hurt my dog. O.O


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> I have also seen reports of Russian soldiers randomly shooting dogs to death for example. Those Russian soldiers, being an invading force in a war time environment, would have new concerns if they shot or hurt a dog of mine. You *don't* hurt my dog. O.O


Fine sentiments, but the reality is, after shooting your dog they'd most likely shoot you.

https://thehill.com/opinion/interna...history-of-brutality-ukraine-is-no-exception/
*The Russian army has a long history of brutality - Ukraine is no exception*

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/11/europe/ukraine-video-russian-soldiers-shoot-civilians/index.html
*Video shows Russian soldiers killing 2 civilians before they ransack a business*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/11/europe/ukraine-video-russian-soldiers-shoot-civilians/index.html
> *Video shows Russian soldiers killing 2 civilians before they ransack a business*


I saw that on TV last night, I couldn't believe what I was seeing they seemed to enjoy what they were doing.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> I saw that on TV last night, I couldn't believe what I was seeing they seemed to enjoy what they were doing.


At least the Ukrainians are now are starting to put Russian soldiers on trial for committing war crimes

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/...n-trial-for-murdering-civilian-in-ukraine-war

*Russian solider, 21, on trial for murdering civilian in Ukraine war*


----------



## Happy Paws2

I really hope it's true..

An oligarch with close links to Vladimir Putin has reportedly been recorded saying that the Russian President is "very ill with blood cancer".


----------



## Magyarmum

An interesting article in today's The Economist

https://www.economist.com/interacti...eting-cloud&utm_term=5/17/2022&utm_id=1170978

*THE PUTIN SHOW*
*How the war in Ukraine appears to Russians*


----------



## Jesthar

The first Russian soldier to go on trial for war crimes has pleaded guilty to shooting an unarmed civilian:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61496428

I have to say, I find myself more emotional about this than I thought, but not in the way I expected. I suppose I was expecting to feel sad for the victims family (which I do), and angry at the soldier - but whilst I do have some anger, most of it isn't directed at him.

True, he followed an order that he definitely shouldn't have, and there is a justifiable price to be paid for that which he will justifiably pay. But whilst he gets to spend the rest of his life in a small cell, the person who gave the order to execute the civilian and the ones who sent these young men into Ukraine on a slew of false promises in the first place probably won't suffer any consequences - well, providing the order giver survives and isn't captured.

Not that I'm saying he should be let off - of course he shouldn't, he shot an civilian and there is a price to be paid for that, even if he felt he couldn't disobey orders. And I'm sure I won't feel the same way about those who enthusiastically massacred, raped and tortured! But I can't help feeling some sadness that some of these young men will spend a lifetime behind bars primarily because of the orders of others who won't pay for their actions at all. Just one more ruined life in its turn - and for what?


----------



## kimthecat

Turkey are objecting to Finland and Sweden joining Nato. If one country objects , does that mean they can't join. ?


----------



## ukcatowner

Those fighting in this war are all children and have families. Putin has lost the plot and needs taken out of power.

The Ukrainians have shown Russia they are a force to be reckoned with as the Russian Soldiers thought they'd be welcomed with opened arms and instead are being sent back to Russia in body bags or wounded. But we have to remember soldiers on both sides are victims as well in this terrible mess, acting on their superiors orders as well as the civilians caught up in this unnecessary and pointless war.

Putin needs to be taken out of power one way or another and this war needs to be ended.

It has been proven Putin is scared of NATO even though NATO is posing no threat to Russia at all.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Turkey are objecting to Finland and Sweden joining Nato. If one country objects , does that mean they can't join. ?


Maybe this article will help answer your question.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220517-can-turkey-block-sweden-and-finland-s-entry-into-nato

*Can Turkey block Sweden and Finland's entry into NATO?*


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Maybe this article will help answer your question.
> 
> https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220517-can-turkey-block-sweden-and-finland-s-entry-into-nato
> 
> *Can Turkey block Sweden and Finland's entry into NATO?*


Thanks . Its a difficult situation.


----------



## DogLover1981

One of the Russian diplomats resigned. I did see people wondering if that would happen eventually.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> One of the Russian diplomats resigned. I did see people wondering if that would happen eventually.


https://www.voanews.com/a/russian-un-envoy-quits-in-protest-of-ukraine-invasion/6585555.html

*Russian UN Envoy Quits in Protest of Ukraine Invasion*


----------



## DogLover1981

Russia has barred deceased Americans from entering their country. lol


----------



## Siskin

DogLover1981 said:


> Russia has barred deceased Americans from entering their country. lol


Deceased Americans?????


----------



## cheekyscrip

My son-in-law is now on convoy with supplies for Ukraine.

Good lad…
Meanwhile the news is beyond horrible. Oleksandrowka - village where Russian soldiers were raping small children, girls and boys, many dead..
Russians passed Nazi …


----------



## stuaz

Siskin said:


> Deceased Americans?????


Yeah they released a list of Americans banned from Russia which included the late Senator John McCain also interesting Morgan Freeman as well. Something to do with a voice over he did or some rubbish like that.


----------



## Jesthar

stuaz said:


> Yeah they released a list of Americans banned from Russia which included the late Senator John McCain also interesting Morgan Freeman as well. Something to do with a voice over he did or some rubbish like that.


They've also banned a load of members of the House of Lords.

I'm sure for all these people being banned from travelling to a country they wouldn't be seen dead in anyway will come as a great hardship - I don't know how they can possibly cope!


----------



## Happy Paws2

_"Russia has called for the lifting of sanctions that were imposed over its invasion of Ukraine as part of a "comprehensive approach" aimed at averting a global food crisis.

Ukraine is one of the world's top grain exporters but it has built up vast stockpiles that it is unable to send abroad due to a Russian blockade of its ports.

The Kremlin's Deputy Foreign Minister Andrey Rudenko said Russia was ready to provide a humanitarian corridor that would allow ships a safe route out of Ukraine - if sanctions were lifted and Kyiv de-mined nearby waters.

Yesterday, the European Union accused Russia of using food supplies as a weapon with global repercussions."

_

We can't go on like this letting him threaten the world's food like this, we need to go in hard whether we like it or and stop the evil b****** from staving millions of people across the world.


----------



## DogLover1981

There is new warnings that the situation could get worse. Ukraine is losing territory at the moment. In areas under Russian control, they have been deporting/kidnapping people, kidnapping children, etc. It's genocide.

Somewhat related, It does look like the growing assistance for Ukraine will include long range missiles.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/27/russia-guilty-inciting-genocide-ukraine-expert-report


----------



## kimthecat

DogLover1981 said:


> There is new warnings that the situation could get worse. Ukraine is losing territory at the moment. In areas under Russian control, they have been deporting/kidnapping people, kidnapping children, etc. It's genocide.
> 
> Somewhat related, It does look like the growing assistance for Ukraine will include long range missiles.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/27/russia-guilty-inciting-genocide-ukraine-expert-report


That;s so sad , 

I read somewhere that the US wont give Ukraine long range missiles. I hope other countries do , they really need them . This was really need to be over ASAP for everyone;s benefit,


----------



## DogLover1981

kimthecat said:


> That;s so sad ,
> 
> I read somewhere that the US wont give Ukraine long range missiles. I hope other countries do , they really need them . This was really need to be over ASAP for everyone;s benefit,


The newest I read is that there is strong consideration being made for giving long range missiles to Ukraine. The weapons may or will come from the USA and Denmark. Possibly, France and elsewhere.

And that's just what is being stated publicly. O.O


----------



## kimthecat

DogLover1981 said:


> The newest I read is that there is strong consideration being made for giving long range missiles to Ukraine. The weapons may or will come from the USA and Denmark. Possibly, France and elsewhere.
> 
> And that's just what is being stated publicly. O.O


I hope so.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> The newest I read is that there is strong consideration being made for giving long range missiles to Ukraine. The weapons may or will come from the USA and Denmark. Possibly, France and elsewhere.
> 
> And that's just what is being stated publicly. O.O





kimthecat said:


> I hope so.


https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/us-long-range-rockets-ukraine-mlrs/index.html

*US preparing to approve advanced long-range rocket system for Ukraine as Russian TV host warns of crossing a 'red line'*

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/05/28/7349046/

*Russia warns US against supplying long-range missile weapons to Ukraine*


----------



## DogLover1981

There was also a donation campaign in Lithuania for giving an advanced military drone to Ukraine.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/eur...s-club-together-buy-drone-ukraine-2022-05-28/


----------



## DogLover1981

Karl43 said:


> He is definitely running scared. I think by invading Ukraine he's exposed himself and Russia as weak and not the incredible super power that we have all been led to believe for decades





DogLover1981 said:


> Putin has already shown that he's afraid of NATO. Russia invaded Ukraine while avoiding all of the NATO countries and no NATO country has been touched by anything so far. He doesn't want to escalate the conflict and it's one hell of a trip wire. Putin has shown potential skittishness about cyber attacks as well.


Putin has shown signs of being afraid of Russians as well. He has avoided mass conscription so far because it could result in riots and unrest. From what I've read and seen, people in Russia are rather polarized about the war with the people most against the war being concentrated in the large cities. A recruitment station was already set on fire back in February or March. It's generational as well with the younger generations getting less of their news from Russian TV.


----------



## DogLover1981

kimthecat said:


> I hope so.


They are worried about escalation of the war but the escalation would have to go pretty damn far to cause problems. I doubt Putin would dare attack any of the NATO countries. A nuclear armed alliance. There are apparently long range missiles with ranges of anywhere 20 miles to 300 miles and even greater than that too. At this point, I'd *almost* say that they just go all out and give Ukraine long range missiles with a range of over 200 miles.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Heart breaking.
Poor people and their poor animals.so many homeless, scared and starving. So many needlessly killed or maimed.
Poland under huge strain of 3 mln refugees, very hard indeed.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Putin has gone very quiet lately we haven't seen him for a while and he's letting others do the talking for him. Hopefully his very ill or maybe his died and they haven't told us.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Putin has gone very quiet lately we haven't seen him for a while and he's letting others do the talking for him. Hopefully his very ill or maybe his died and they haven't told us.


It's all just speculation,

https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/is-putin-sick-or-are-we-meant-to-think-he-is/

*Is Putin Sick - Or Are We Meant to Think He Is?*

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/30/russias-lavrov-denies-putin-is-ill-a77832

*Russia's Lavrov Denies Putin Is Ill*


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## DogLover1981

The USA and Biden appears to have chickened out of giving them long range missiles. The Ukraine military will want these even after the war is over and they may even make their own eventually. It's either now or later. I think Biden is likely being too timid about this. Even if Ukraine had long range missiles with a range of 200 miles, I'd think they'd have some incentive to not escalate the situation too much.


----------



## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


> It's all just speculation,
> 
> https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/is-putin-sick-or-are-we-meant-to-think-he-is/
> 
> *Is Putin Sick - Or Are We Meant to Think He Is?*
> 
> https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/30/russias-lavrov-denies-putin-is-ill-a77832
> 
> *Russia's Lavrov Denies Putin Is Ill*


All the talk of Putin being sick reminds me of the scene in Doctor Who where the doctor is able to take down the prime minister, not with weapons or physically but with six words "Don't you think she looks tired". Great scene.






I believe it's a play on the situation that happened with Mrs Thatcher toward the end of her career (the doubt planted in the minds of people, not the aliens )

Sometimes there is a lot of power in words.


----------



## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> The USA and Biden appears to have chickened out of giving them long range missiles. The Ukraine military will want these even after the war is over and they may even make their own eventually. It's either now or later. I think Biden is likely being too timid about this. Even if Ukraine had long range missiles with a range of 200 miles, I'd think they'd have some incentive to not escalate the situation too much.


Even now with the weapons that the Ukrainian military has, they're showing signs of restraint. They're going after targets in Russia rather sparingly, if at all. They seem to be refusing to even confirm it as well. I think they are well aware that if they hit civilian targets in Russia, it'd be a goldmine for Russian propaganda.


----------



## Jesthar

DogLover1981 said:


> Even now with the weapons that the Ukrainian military has, they're showing signs of restraint. They're going after targets in Russia rather sparingly, if at all. They seem to be refusing to even confirm it as well. I think they are well aware that if they hit civilian targets in Russia, it'd be a goldmine for Russian propaganda.


Absolutely, the one thing they really need to keep is the moral high ground. Admittedly, Moscow is making that very easy, but Ukraine needs to keep things as clean as is possible in a warzone.

Incidentally, I don't think the US have ruled out sending MLRS units to Ukraine, they just won't send the longer range ammunition. Given that the short range rockets still do 60 miles, they are still going to pack quite a punch.


----------



## DogLover1981

I was just thinking that there may actually be more benefits than risks with supplying the Ukrainian military with a large arsenal of missiles capable of reaching all of Russia, including Moscow, St. Petersburg and other major cities. It would force Putin and the Russian military to restrain themselves a bit and they may stop the attacks on major Ukrainian cities such as Kiev and Kharkiv. They could be rather spooked and possibly rather boxed in with the ways that they could retaliate too. I'm not an expert though. lol

Already, the Ukrainian military has shown a large degree of restraint and strategy when needed. I suspect that they have already been playing a little "game" too by refusing to confirm attacks in Russia. A successful strike would make the Russian defenses look rather weak and it's possible that Ukraine is refusing to confirm it in order to give Russia plausible deniability.


----------



## Magyarmum

The EU have reached an agreement over the Russian oil embargo

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-leaders-agree-on-russian-oil-embargo/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=alert&utm_campaign=EU leaders agree on Russian oil embargo&utm_source=POLITICO.EU&utm_campaign=9a2fb01b9f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2022_05_30_10_43&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-9a2fb01b9f-190460357

*EU leaders agree on Russian oil embargo*

https://www.pravda.ru/news/politics/1713588-rogozin_neft_vodka/

Edited to add the head of Roskosmos' reply in Pravda ru

*Rogozin ridiculed the words of the head of the EC about oil: you need to "drink all Russian vodka" in spite of the Russian Federation*


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum About time!


----------



## Beth78

Magyarmum said:


> It's all just speculation,


And a big dose of wishful thinking.


----------



## Jesthar

I see Moscow is complaining that the West (particularly the US) supplying Ukraine with heavier weapons isn't encouraging Kyiv to request peace talks, and whining that Washington wants to "fight Russia to the last Ukrainian."

No, Moscow, I think you'll find that is *Ukrainians *that want to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian, and the rest of the world is just helping them do that. And given you've already stated numerous times you want to wipe out Ukraine as a people group, why on earth would we encourage them to request peace talks on your terms?


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...-additional-security-assistance-to-ukraine-2/

*Statement by President Joe Biden on Additional Security Assistance to Ukraine*


----------



## Magyarmum

So now you know! 

Putin likens himself to Peter the Great. The same one who tortured and killed his son and built St Petersburg on the bones of slave workers.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...-to-tsar-hints-at-russian-territory-expansion

*'Taking it back': Vladimir Putin likens self to Peter the Great*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> So now you know!
> 
> Putin likens himself to Peter the Great. The same one who tortured and killed his son and built St Petersburg on the bones of slave workers.
> 
> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...-to-tsar-hints-at-russian-territory-expansion
> 
> *'Taking it back': Vladimir Putin likens self to Peter the Great*


Was there ever any real doubt? The man is a kleptocratic megalomaniac...


----------



## DogLover1981

I really think that European countries and everyone else should be helping the Ukrainian military obtain missiles capable of reaching all of Russia, possibly even missiles *capable* of carrying nuclear weapons. Putin could be spooked and he would know that continuing the war in Ukraine would carry substantial risks of escalation for Russia back at home. People in the Kremlin and the rest of Moscow would even have reasons to worry.

I do understand that people are worried about escalating the situation but it's already pretty tense. Putin invaded a previous peaceful country in Europe while committing genocide. That's a pretty serious escalation in itself. You could even view it as a direct attack on NATO, Europe and the EU as Ukraine was previously trying to join the EU and NATO.


----------



## Jesthar

DogLover1981 said:


> I really think that European countries and everyone else should be helping the Ukrainian military obtain missiles capable of reaching all of Russia, possibly even missiles *capable* of carrying nuclear weapons. Putin could be spooked and he would know that continuing the war in Ukraine would carry substantial risks of escalation for Russia back at home. People in the Kremlin and the rest of Moscow would even have reasons to worry.
> 
> I do understand that people are worried about escalating the situation but it's already pretty tense. Putin invaded a previous peaceful country in Europe while committing genocide. That's a pretty serious escalation in itself. You could even view it as a direct attack on NATO, Europe and the EU as Ukraine was previously trying to join the EU and NATO.


To be honest, there would be no point. Moscow knows no NATO country is going to use nukes, same as we know Moscow isnt going to use them. And sending missles at russia will give Moscow an excuse to go to full mobilisation. At the moment, because they claim this isn't a war, they can't do a general mobilisation.

The best course of action is for all sides to keep this confined to Ukraine and give Ukraine weapons that can hit russian positions from a range where they can't be hit by return fire. Ukraine has no problem with that, they just want their country back. Some of those weapons are already on their way, but there will be a delay as Ukranian troops are trained on them.

And despite how awful things are, we can't pretend that the russian invasion was an attack on NATO. What we can do is keep supporting Ukraine every way we can - NATO came into existance to protect Europe from invasion by the USSR, so now is the time for all that planning and stockpiling to be channelled to Ukraine.


----------



## Maurey

Jesthar said:


> At the moment, because they claim this isn't a war, they can't do a general mobilisation.


Actually, Putin declared war a few weeks ago, sadly.

None of the recent sanctions are doing much except affect the general population so far, either. Prices have normalized after the initial spike, but we're starting to have severe impact on the pharmaceutical industry. It's getting increasingly hard to find some essential drugs that are imported, or need raw materials imported for production


----------



## Jesthar

Maurey said:


> Actually, Putin declared war a few weeks ago, sadly.


Really? I don't think he has done so officially - if he has, it hasn't been reported in the West, and I'm pretty sure it would be front page news. All the Moscow spokespeople are very careful to refer to it as a 'special military operation' and deny it is a war, whenever they speak on the record.


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> Really? I don't think he has done so officially - if he has, it hasn't been reported in the West, and I'm pretty sure it would be front page news. All the Moscow spokespeople are very careful to refer to it as a 'special military operation' and deny it is a war, whenever they speak on the record.


True - I thought describing it as a ''war'' carried a custodial sentence? Last I heard it was still a ''special operation'' ; but maybe it's changed now, not been watching so closely as it drags on.


----------



## white_shadow

.
Earlier today, came across this lovely, touching collection of pics from early April......

*Saving the Dogs and Cats of Ukraine - themoscowtimes.com*
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Sadly. People are dying, their pets are dying but until it hits us hard we will not do enough for Ukraine and then it will be too late.


----------



## HarlequinCat

cheekyscrip said:


> Sadly. People are dying, their pets are dying but until it hits us hard we will not do enough for Ukraine and then it will be too late.


It'll hit us soon, on the Daily Fail admittedly, but there's an article showing soldiers deliberately scorching and burning wheat fields in Ukraine


----------



## Siskin

HarlequinCat said:


> It'll hit us soon, on the Daily Fail admittedly, but there's an article showing soldiers deliberately scorching and burning wheat fields in Ukraine


There should be a good harvest in the uk this year, but next year could be tricky due to fertiliser prices, even if the weather plays ball yields will be lower. I heard recently that the uk is only approx 60% self sufficient on food, the rest has to be imported.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Really? I don't think he has done so officially - if he has, it hasn't been reported in the West, and I'm pretty sure it would be front page news. All the Moscow spokespeople are very careful to refer to it as a 'special military operation' and deny it is a war, whenever they speak on the record.


https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...on-is-an-imperial-war-to-return-russian-land/

*Putin admits Ukraine invasion is an imperial war to "return" Russian land*

His unapologetically imperialistic attitude toward Russian-Ukrainian relations was laid bare in July 2021 in the form of a 7,000-word essay authored by Putin himself which set out to explain the alleged "historical unity" binding the two nations together. "I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. For we are one people," Putin the amateur historian concluded. This bizarre treatise was widely interpreted as a declaration of war against the entire notion of an independent Ukraine and has since been made required reading for all Russian military personnel.


----------



## Siskin

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...on-is-an-imperial-war-to-return-russian-land/
> 
> *Putin admits Ukraine invasion is an imperial war to "return" Russian land*
> 
> His unapologetically imperialistic attitude toward Russian-Ukrainian relations was laid bare in July 2021 in the form of a 7,000-word essay authored by Putin himself which set out to explain the alleged "historical unity" binding the two nations together. "I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. For we are one people," Putin the amateur historian concluded. This bizarre treatise was widely interpreted as a declaration of war against the entire notion of an independent Ukraine and has since been made required reading for all Russian military personnel.


Frankly I'm not surprised Ukraine doesn't want to be part of Russia especially after how they were treated during and after the revolution in the 1930's. The place was stripped bare of anything edible, not dissimilar to what is happening today.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Sadly. People are dying, their pets are dying but until it hits us hard we will not do enough for Ukraine and then it will be too late.


Out of interest, aside from sending troops in, what do you think the West should realistically be doing that they aren't already?


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...on-is-an-imperial-war-to-return-russian-land/
> 
> *Putin admits Ukraine invasion is an imperial war to "return" Russian land*
> 
> His unapologetically imperialistic attitude toward Russian-Ukrainian relations was laid bare in July 2021 in the form of a 7,000-word essay authored by Putin himself which set out to explain the alleged "historical unity" binding the two nations together. "I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. For we are one people," Putin the amateur historian concluded. This bizarre treatise was widely interpreted as a declaration of war against the entire notion of an independent Ukraine and has since been made required reading for all Russian military personnel.


Oh, I'm well aware of that, and that Putin and his cronies have a war mindset. But that's not what I'm talking about - I'm talking technicalities.

International war has rules, one of which is that you have to formally declare that you are at war. I'm pretty sure that anyone in the UK has heard the recording of the radio broadcast Neville Chamberlain made when Britain declared war on Germany - it's that kind of thing.

Moscow hasn't done this - it's still insisting on calling this a 'Special Military Operation.' Yes, we all know that is really just calling a spade a Manually Operated Digging Blade, but it has some significantly negative consequences for Putin. For example, he can't activate a general military mobilisation or call up reserves, meaning the options for replacing lost men are very limited.

That is why there has been so much pressure on the more recent batch of bi-yearly conscripts to sign professional military contracts, as conscripts can't be sent outside of russia or to active combat except in a war (and yes, we know some were sent anyway in the initial attack when Moscow thought they could eat Ukraine for breakfast and be home in time for tea, but the world is watching closely now), only contracted soldiers. The main motive is financial - most conscripts are from very poor areas, conscripts get paid peanuts (about $30 a month), and signing a professional contract would get somewhere between 10 and 30 times that before the invasion. Now, adverts are offering much higher salaries plus a host of lucrative benefits (allegedly - there have been stories that those who signed up aren't getting paid...).

There are other limits as well, but that's currently the one hurting the most, I suspect.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Out of interest, aside from sending troops in, what do you think the West should realistically be doing that they aren't already?


Germany promised weapons, tanks etc but did not deliver.
They desperately need more artillery, tanks, ammo etc…
Rocket launchers etc…planes…
Pretty obvious.


----------



## Magyarmum

I'd be banned from PF if I put into words how I feel about this.

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=390344353124520&set=a.237166015109022


----------



## white_shadow

.
Found this today thru @Magyarmum 's link (above).....just had to share..........what an angel!









Another photo that leaves you speechless. A woman is saving disabled dogs from a shelter in Irpin, Kyiv region.
March 10
Photo: @occhicone98 (IG)​.


----------



## DogLover1981

This war has left me rather grossed out regarding the pope. He has chickened out of visiting Ukraine so far and he was just blaming Ukraine and the rest of Europe for the war.


----------



## Magyarmum

white_shadow said:


> .
> Found this today thru @Magyarmum 's link (above).....just had to share..........what an angel!
> 
> View attachment 494153
> 
> Another photo that leaves you speechless. A woman is saving disabled dogs from a shelter in Irpin, Kyiv region.
> March 10
> Photo: @occhicone98 (IG)​.


A friend of mine regularly drives from Prague to Lviv with medical supplies and food for dogs and brings back dogs, mostly young puppies. A lot of dogs cats and other animals are brought from Ukraine by their owners.

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2022/03/ukraine-animal-refugees/627067/


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> A friend of mine regularly drives from Prague to Lviv with medical supplies and food for dogs and brings back dogs, mostly young puppies. A lot of dogs cats and other animals are brought from Ukraine by their owners.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2022/03/ukraine-animal-refugees/627067/


Those pictures made me cry

It's heartbreaking all round but at least we know what is going on, these poor animals have no idea why there life has been turned upside down and we can't explain it to them they must be terrified.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I'd be banned from PF if I put into words how I feel about this.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=390344353124520&set=a.237166015109022


The hypocrisy is breathtaking...


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Germany promised weapons, tanks etc but did not deliver.
> They desperately need more artillery, tanks, ammo etc…
> Rocket launchers etc…planes…
> Pretty obvious.


) 
I read (last month I think) that they eventually did deliver some refurbished tanks - albeit fewer, and later than most- but simply because they were pretty much shamed into doing so when they saw what other countries were contributing.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> )
> I read (last month I think) that they eventually did deliver some refurbished tanks - albeit fewer, and later than most- but simply because they were pretty much shamed into doing so when they saw what other countries were contributing.


Germany used to come to agreement with Russia about splitting Poland, many times, not really surprised about Germany dragging their feet…
France actually buying more from Russia it seems.
While Putin is getting on with another massacre.


----------



## Calvine

DogLover1981 said:


> This war has left me rather grossed out regarding the pope


He certainly has some odd and unworldly ideas*;* recently said having pets is selfish and people should have more children i_nstead. _This at a time when many people can just about afford to live, but what the hell, churn out a few more babies (and disregard the fact that the planet can scarcely sustain the ones we have). He certainly seems to be living in the proverbial ivory tower.


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> He certainly has some odd and unworldly ideas*;* recently said having pets is selfish and people should have more children i_nstead. _This at a time when many people can just about afford to live, but what the hell, churn out a few more babies (and disregard the fact that the planet can scarcely sustain the ones we have). He certainly seems to be living in the proverbial ivory tower.


I suspect this one is more cynically practical on two levels - Russia has a declining population (and losing so many men of reproducing age in Ukraine isn't going to help), plus more children in a country with an imploding economy (especially in poor areas) = more destitute people willing to sign up as army cannon fodder, both now and in the future.

Interesting to note that Nazi Germany had large monetary rewards for having your first four children....


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> I suspect this one is more cynically practical on two levels - Russia has a declining population (and losing so many men of reproducing age in Ukraine isn't going to help), plus more children in a country with an imploding economy (especially in poor areas) = more destitute people willing to sign up as army cannon fodder, both now and in the future.
> 
> Interesting to note that Nazi Germany had large monetary rewards for having your first four children....


A couple of articles you might like to read which sort of relate to what you're talking about.

https://meduza.io/en/news/2022/06/15/chechnya-residents-being-forcibly-sent-to-fight-in-ukraine
*Chechnya residents being forcibly sent to fight in Ukraine*

https://www.pravda.ru/world/1716975-sex_ukraina_war/
*UN does not recognize rape as a "military weapon" in Ukraine*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> A couple of articles you might like to read which sort of relate to what you're talking about.
> 
> https://meduza.io/en/news/2022/06/15/chechnya-residents-being-forcibly-sent-to-fight-in-ukraine
> *Chechnya residents being forcibly sent to fight in Ukraine*
> 
> https://www.pravda.ru/world/1716975-sex_ukraina_war/
> *UN does not recognize rape as a "military weapon" in Ukraine*


The first one - wow, how low can you sink than to threaten to rape your family if you don't sign up as cannon fodder?

had to ficure outhow to translate the secon page, but that's even worse. Still going on about the russians 'saving' Ukranians from democracy, western satanists and nazis, I see, as well...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> The first one - wow, how low can you sink than to threaten to rape your family if you don't sign up as cannon fodder?
> 
> had to ficure outhow to translate the secon page, but that's even worse. Still going on about the russians 'saving' Ukranians from democracy, western satanists and nazis, I see, as well...


I'm not someone who believes everything they read, but having travelled to Germany on business with my father in the early 50's and heard accounts from credible people about the Russian army's behaviour I can believe a lot of what is written in those articles is true

Sad to say.


----------



## Magyarmum

Specially for @Happy Paws2 Enjoy!

https://www.economist.com/films/202...eting-cloud&utm_term=6/17/2022&utm_id=1203988

*Is Vladimir Putin ill?*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lets hope some of it is true.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I'm not someone who believes everything they read, but having travelled to Germany on business with my father in the early 50's and heard accounts from credible people about the Russian army's behaviour I can believe a lot of what is written in those articles is true
> 
> Sad to say.


Agreed - I once heard someone say there used to be a summary of the experience of their part of Germany at the end of WW2, which went something along these lines:

"First came the British, who raped a little and stole a little. Then came the Americans, who raped a little more and stole a little more Finally came the Russians, who raped everyone and stole everything"

From everything I heard, none of the Allies were perfect, but the Russians were the worst by a very long way


----------



## Siskin

Jesthar said:


> Agreed - I once heard someone say there used to be a summary of the experience of their part of Germany at the end of WW2, which went something along these lines:
> 
> "First came the British, who raped a little and stole a little. Then came the Americans, who raped a little more and stole a little more Finally came the Russians, who raped everyone and stole everything"
> 
> From everything I heard, none of the Allies were perfect, but the Russians were the worst by a very long way


From what I have read in the past there was genuine fear amongst the German population as the Russian army approached Berlin. The men would be shot immediately along with the elderly, babies and infirm. The women were there to be raped as often as possible then shot. Sales of arsenic shot up as chemists turned a blind eye to purchases, others tied bed linen together to make a noose and hung themselves.
Apparently taking arsenic is not a pleasant way to die, you don't just drift off to sleep and not know a thing, it's painful and drawn out


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Agreed - I once heard someone say there used to be a summary of the experience of their part of Germany at the end of WW2, which went something along these lines:
> 
> "First came the British, who raped a little and stole a little. Then came the Americans, who raped a little more and stole a little more Finally came the Russians, who raped everyone and stole everything"
> 
> From everything I heard, none of the Allies were perfect, but the Russians were the worst by a very long way


Those were my words from a previous post on this thread. It's what we were told whilst visiting a German surgical instrument factory in Tuttlingen in the early 50's. The Russians had stripped the factory bare and taken everything back to Russia, in mush the same way that they're doing in Ukraine

More about Alexy Navalny's "new home"

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/06/16/at-alexey-navalny-s-new-prison-torture-is-rampant

*At Alexey Navalny's new prison, torture is rampant. At least two past inmates died after being beaten*


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=392389972919958&set=a.237166015109022


----------



## Happy Paws2

Some one has got to stop this man...









Europe told to prepare for Russia turning off gas


The International Energy Agency warns that Russia may stop supplying gas to Europe this winter.



www.bbc.com


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Some one has got to stop this man...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Europe told to prepare for Russia turning off gas
> 
> 
> The International Energy Agency warns that Russia may stop supplying gas to Europe this winter.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


This is how it was reported in Hungary. 









Russian Gas Cut Off from Pipelines Including Those Supplying Hungary


Gazprom will stop gas supplies on the TurkStream pipeline for a week as of June 21st. Since September of last year, Hungary has been receiving a significant part of Russian gas imports from this route after the two countries agreed to use it to replace most of the former Ukrainian transit, G7...




hungarytoday.hu


----------



## Jesthar

*Warning, upsetting images in link*

So today Russia hit a crowded ahopping mall with a missile strike. Zero military value...









Rescuers dig for survivors after 'deplorable' attack on Ukraine shopping centre | ITV News


President Volodymyr Zelenskyy uploaded a video of the incident saying 'the number of victims is unimaginable'. | ITV National News




www.itv.com


----------



## Andersonstev

Boxer123 said:


> This seems to be escalating very scary. I don’t understand how Russia keep denying what they are doing.


They do not deny it


----------



## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> I really think that European countries and everyone else should be helping the Ukrainian military obtain missiles capable of reaching all of Russia, possibly even missiles _capable_ of carrying nuclear weapons. Putin could be spooked and he would know that continuing the war in Ukraine would carry substantial risks of escalation for Russia back at home. People in the Kremlin and the rest of Moscow would even have reasons to worry.
> 
> I do understand that people are worried about escalating the situation but it's already pretty tense. Putin invaded a previous peaceful country in Europe while committing genocide. That's a pretty serious escalation in itself. You could even view it as a direct attack on NATO, Europe and the EU as Ukraine was previously trying to join the EU and NATO.


...and now, Russia is at least threatening to give Belarus missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons. Putin was warned months ago that supplying missiles to Belarus would be considered a _serious_ escalation. O.O I wonder where this is going to go next. Perhaps, Europe and NATO really should have supplied Ukraine with long range missiles a month ago. Then, today, you have the attacks on the shopping mall.


----------



## DogLover1981

I said that too soon. It does sound like the USA and others will be supplying long range missile systems real soon. Apparently the very same ones used to protect the White House and Washington, DC. O.O


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> *Warning, upsetting images in link*
> 
> So today Russia hit a crowded ahopping mall with a missile strike. Zero military value...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rescuers dig for survivors after 'deplorable' attack on Ukraine shopping centre | ITV News
> 
> 
> President Volodymyr Zelenskyy uploaded a video of the incident saying 'the number of victims is unimaginable'. | ITV National News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.itv.com


The Russians are denying it as per normal.









Ukraine war: Kremenchuk shopping centre attack claims fact-checked


Russia's government and its supporters online spread a number of false claims after the bombing.



www.bbc.com


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> The Russians are denying it as per normal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukraine war: Kremenchuk shopping centre attack claims fact-checked
> 
> 
> Russia's government and its supporters online spread a number of false claims after the bombing.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


I watch a couple of YouTube channel where the often includes some of the more rabid russian TV talking heads discussions or print media - they are utterly bonkers in the things they claim! Recent one was that here in the UK we are on the verge of starvation and resorting to cannibalism...

On the plus side today, welcome to NATO Sweden and Finland!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> On the plus side today, welcome to NATO Sweden and Finland!



Oh lovely, that's going to upset Putin


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> On the plus side today, welcome to NATO Sweden and Finland!


Oh That's brilliant news.


----------



## kimthecat

I hope this doesnt offend anyway but Ive got Kenny Everett in my head with the Giant hands saying Lets bomb Russia.


----------



## Jesthar

Wow, Russia have had to retreat from Snake Island! 🤯

Can't wait to see them tying themselves in knots trying to put a positive spin on this one...


----------



## kimthecat

*BORIS JOHNSON is committing a further £1 billion to Ukraine's effort against Russia's invasion in a blow to Vladimir Putin's forces*

Good. After the bombing of the shopping centre which must be a war crime , the Russians deserve everything they get .


----------



## Magyarmum

I don't believe it! What an idiot!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542400005729828864


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> I don't believe it! What an idiot!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542400005729828864


I've always though Ecclestone had a screw loose.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I don't believe it! What an idiot!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542400005729828864


Well, I hear the russian army is recruiting... 

On a more positive note, Ukraine celebrated July 4th with a massive firework display!

Grateful thanks to Russia for providing the ammo dump, and the USA for providing the HIMARs to light it with from a suitably safe distance 






(well worth a watch even without sound! Apologies for the source, best vid of it I could find, sorry!)


----------



## Siskin

On another note, is anyone watching The Undisclosed War, ch 4 Thursday 9pm? It’s set in 2024 and is about cyber warfare between the UK and Russia. Boris has gone, but Putins still there. As it’s about GCHQ, OH and I are having a jolly good snigger


----------



## stuaz

Siskin said:


> On another note, is anyone watching The Undisclosed War, ch 4 Thursday 9pm? It’s set in 2024 and is about cyber warfare between the UK and Russia. Boris has gone, but Putins still there. As it’s about GCHQ, OH and I are having a jolly good snigger


I have been watching it. Slow start and of course a slight eye roll here and there regarding the “hacking” and “spy” work of GCHQ but overall enjoying it. I think it’s a firm reminder to not believe everything you read and see on the internet tho based on what goes on it. 

Hope it gets a season 2 as left on a little cliffhanger!


----------



## DogLover1981

I believe a part of the strategy of Russia propaganda is to get people to not trust anything. Just flood people with disinformation (firehosing people) and get people to question and distrust everything. I did read that the official Russian twitter accounts were even doing it .

I have noticed that with anything Russia or the Russian military is accused of, they'll just turn around and accuse others of doing it. It's a strategy to confuse the situation and confuse people. You could consider it barely disguised whataboutery. Sometimes, they'll even try to preempt it. The whole accusing Ukrainians of being "Nazis" while the Russian military is the one actually behaving more like "Nazis" for example. O.O

On a side note, It's difficult to measure what impact it's actually having on the war and I'd say it's important not to exaggerate or overstate it as well.


----------



## Siskin

stuaz said:


> I have been watching it. Slow start and of course a slight eye roll here and there regarding the “hacking” and “spy” work of GCHQ but overall enjoying it. I think it’s a firm reminder to not believe everything you read and see on the internet tho based on what goes on it.
> 
> Hope it gets a season 2 as left on a little cliffhanger!


I agree, I’m naturally suspicious and rarely believe anything. 
Currently binge watching and on the last one.
We are still trying to work out where they think the old gchq is (I worked there) as it’s now a big housing estate and a supermarket. if there’s an inch of spare ground in Cheltenham someone builds houses on it.


----------



## stuaz

Siskin said:


> I agree, I’m naturally suspicious and rarely believe anything.
> Currently binge watching and on the last one.
> We are still trying to work out where they think the old gchq is (I worked there) as it’s now a big housing estate and a supermarket. if there’s an inch of spare ground in Cheltenham someone builds houses on it.


I think most parts were filmed in Bristol/South Wales rather than on location.

Some parts are scarily accurate as to how a future cyber war is likely to play out as well.


----------



## Siskin

stuaz said:


> I think most parts were filmed in Bristol/South Wales rather than on location.
> 
> Some parts are scarily accurate as to how a future cyber war is likely to play out as well.


I thought that too which is why there really is quite a large cyber warfare dept although not at the main building. That’s been in operation for some considerable time now, I presume it could be seen what was happening and acted accordingly. The whole place has altered considerably since I was there and quite a bit since OH left when he retired.

We just thought it was hilarious that there was supposed to be a fenced off area that was the old place and all these scrap bits and bobs left lying about. Mind you there is an element of truth about stuff being taken from skips, we have a couple of old wooden tables that were liberated.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> I believe a part of the strategy of Russia propaganda is to get people to not trust anything. Just flood people with disinformation (firehosing people) and get people to question and distrust everything. I did read that the official Russian twitter accounts were even doing it .
> 
> I have noticed that with anything Russia or the Russian military is accused of, they'll just turn around and accuse others of doing it. It's a strategy to confuse the situation and confuse people. You could consider it barely disguised whataboutery. Sometimes, they'll even try to preempt it. The whole accusing Ukrainians of being "Nazis" while the Russian military is the one actually behaving more like "Nazis" for example. O.O
> 
> On a side note, It's difficult to measure what impact it's actually having on the war and I'd say it's important not to exaggerate or overstate it as well.


An interesting article from The Atlantic Council









Putin’s poisonous anti-Western ideology relies heavily on projection


Vladimir Putin's poisonous anti-Western ideology is rooted in projection of his own authoritarian instincts and outdated assumptions about the adversarial nature of relations between Russia and the democratic world.




www.atlanticcouncil.org


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> An interesting article from The Atlantic Council
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Putin’s poisonous anti-Western ideology relies heavily on projection
> 
> 
> Vladimir Putin's poisonous anti-Western ideology is rooted in projection of his own authoritarian instincts and outdated assumptions about the adversarial nature of relations between Russia and the democratic world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.atlanticcouncil.org


That sounds about right. Which is ironic, seeing as for the past few decades the only time your average 'westener' even thought about russia was during the Olympics or some other sporting event - especially when they got caught cheating (again!)...


----------



## Magyarmum

Lest we forget ......









Russian missile strike on Vinnytsia kills more than 20, injures dozens The victims include three children — Meduza


A Russian missile strike in the central Ukrainian city of Vinnytsia killed at least 21 people, including three children, and injured dozens more, according to Ukraine's State Emergency Service. At least 42 people are still missing, 91 people have sought medical treatment, and 52 have been...




meduza.io


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## DogLover1981

A side note about the Ukrainian war, I was reading about the protests in Hungary and this war has given me a more nuanced view of Hungary and Poland. I have seen news articles over the years that make both countries seem like troublemakers and whatnot.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> A side note about the Ukrainian war, I was reading about the protests in Hungary and this war has given me a more nuanced view of Hungary and Poland. I have seen news articles over the years that make both countries seem like troublemakers and whatnot.


I'm not sure which protests you're referring to. The most recent one in Hungary has been over the changes to the KATA small business tax,









Protests as Hungary Raises Taxes on Small Businesses


Decision to drastically reform a popular option leads to first significant show of disquiet with Viktor Orban’s government since its re-election.




balkaninsight.com





Unfortunately Poland and Hungary are considered the "bad boys" of the EU and can't do anything right Whilst I'm no great fan of Orban, and don't agree with many of his policies, I find that the overseas media is often biased against the country and present a somewhat distorted version of the truth as they see it,


----------



## Magyarmum

__





Watch


Original shows and popular videos in different categories from producers and creators you love




www.facebook.com


----------



## Magyarmum

Putin must be in a bad way if he has to ask Kim Jong Un for help!








Russia requests North Korean labourers be sent to Donbas in exchange for wheat and machinery


Providing technology to Pyongyang would violate UN sanctions that Moscow has supported in the past




www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## Magyarmum

An interesting article about whether sanctions against Russia are working,









What did Western sanctions on Russia achieve?


Western sanctions haven’t ended Russia’s war on Ukraine. But they are likely to set back the country’s economic development by 30 years




www.ips-journal.eu


----------



## DogLover1981

I'm surprised to see this thread getting buried a little.

The war in Ukraine is still ongoing. People and animals in Ukraine are suffering quite a bit. I did read that the situation in Kherson is awful. The conflict is restarting in Kherson.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> I'm surprised to see this thread getting buried a little.
> 
> The war in Ukraine is still ongoing. People and animals in Ukraine are suffering quite a bit. I did read that the situation in Kherson is awful. The conflict is restarting in Kherson.


Even though I'm still keenly interested, I stopped posting because as there was no response from other members of the forum I was beginning to feel as though I was talking to myself.


----------



## Boxer123

I am still following the news but haven’t posted because I honestly don’t know what to say it’s just horrific. My village are still collecting resources for Ukraine. We have had some families move to the area their stories are humbling.


----------



## Magyarmum

If you turn on the sound you can hear the air raid siren. A sound that has become an everyday part of Ukrainian life!



https://war.ukraine.ua/russia-war-crimes/?fbclid=IwAR2vli04OMS2JKQ25nCe91cJ6xCXZcSJfHegFYk5oWAwmOoTtwbs1bBYrCY


----------



## huckybuck

Every time I hear about people moaning about the situation in the UK, cost of living etc I really want to shout and say at least you have a roof over your head and a job and food in the shops, and you aren’t being bombed every day!!!! I really think people don’t realise how lucky they are in comparison to the poor Ukranians. It breaks my heart to see the war still raging on. Somehow someone needs to stop Putin.


----------



## Happy Paws2

huckybuck said:


> Every time I hear about people moaning about the situation in the UK, cost of living etc I really want to shout and say at least you have a roof over your head and a job and food in the shops, and you aren’t being bombed every day!!!! I really think people don’t realise how lucky they are in comparison to the poor Ukranians. It breaks my heart to see the war still raging on. Somehow someone needs to stop Putin.



Fair enough we are lucky to be in a safe country and we should be thankful for it, but If I want to moan about the UK I will and If I was younger I'd move abroad in a heartbeat.


----------



## Magyarmum

Well worth reading.

*RUSSIA'S FAMINE GAME*
OBEY OR STARVE



https://war.ukraine.ua/food-security/?fbclid=IwAR0QfdXUPWodySHQ-LQJJC1P4xVvhQAtpERc9do3qVhIoKE-HYzczleAoVg


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## DogLover1981

The war in Ukraine has made me realize how much civilians suffer during warfare.

What I find unreal is that much of what has happened during this war has happened throughout human history and warfare was a constant throughout history. I have read about entire cities being set ablaze as a war tactic in ancient times, likely leading to civilians burning alive. 

From ancient times and likely prehistory to World War 2 and the present, it has been common for invaders or the winners to rape and torture civilians and especially women. There were even forced marriages and people taking the losers as slaves. It seems like women were merely viewed as the "spoils" of war. I do, at times, think we really need memorials dedicated to all the suffering and sh1t that our ancestors went through from World War 2 and all the way to far back ancient times thousands of years ago.

There is some amount of evidence of warfare in prehistory and who knows what those poor people went through among all those many generations. Possibly evidence of what we would now consider genocide as well. Considering that they had no written records, there will always be some amount of mystery regarding that.

Form what I've read, it does seem like war was just a fact of life and there wasn't really anyone out there that considered war itself to be unethical until about the 1700s or 1800s. Even after that, people seem to be rather poor at avoiding wars.

You do see memorials and such out there but rarely are they for people from the deep past.


----------



## Boxer123

DogLover1981 said:


> The war in Ukraine has made me realize how much civilians suffer during warfare.
> 
> What I find unreal is that much of what has happened during this war has happened throughout human history and warfare was a constant throughout history. I have read about entire cities being set ablaze as war tactic in ancient times, likely leading to civilians burning alive.
> 
> From ancient times and likely prehistory to World War 2 and the present, it has been common for invaders or the winners to rape and torture civilians and especially women. There were even forced marriages and people taking the losers as slaves. It seems like women were merely viewed as the "spoils" of war. I do, at times, think we really need memorials dedicated to all the suffering and sh1t that our ancestors went through from World War 2 and all to far back ancient times thousands of years ago.
> 
> There is some amount of evidence of warfare in prehistory and who knows what those poor people went through among all those many generations. Possibly evidence of what we would now consider genocide as well. Considering that they had no written records, there will always be some amount of mystery regarding that.
> 
> Form what I've read, it does seem like war was just a fact of life and there wasn't really anyone out there that considered war itself to be unethical until about the 1700s or 1800s. Even after that, people seem to be rather poor at avoiding wars.
> 
> You do see memorials and such out there but rarely are they for people from the deep past.


Makes me think of this quote the vast majority of people don’t want or choose war.


----------



## Jesthar

In the meantime, whilst russia uses a _nuclear power plant_ as a base to fire daily and indiscriminately on civilian areas (Zaporizhzhia: Russian rockets damaged part of nuclear plant, Ukraine says), Amnesty International prefer to publish a report (based on anecdotal evidence) alleging that Ukrainian forces endangederd civilians by launching strikes from within populated residential areas and basing themselves in civilian buildings in nineteen towns and villages in the front line regions. Now it's not ideal, obviously, but talk about victim blaming a country defending itself! They also refused all input from the Ukraininan Amnesty office, apparently...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> In the meantime, whilst russia uses a _nuclear power plant_ as a base to fire daily and indiscriminately on civilian areas (Zaporizhzhia: Russian rockets damaged part of nuclear plant, Ukraine says), Amnesty International prefer to publish a report (based on anecdotal evidence) alleging that Ukrainian forces endangederd civilians by launching strikes from within populated residential areas and basing themselves in civilian buildings in nineteen towns and villages in the front line regions. Now it's not ideal, obviously, but talk about victim blaming a country defending itself! They also refused all input from the Ukraininan Amnesty office, apparently...







__





Facebook







www.facebook.com


----------



## DogLover1981

A nuclear power plant was shelled in Ukraine. Yikes.


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## Happy Paws2

DogLover1981 said:


> A nuclear power plant was shelled in Ukraine. Yikes.



Indeed, very worrying.


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> A nuclear power plant was shelled in Ukraine. Yikes.


According to the Russians, the Ukrainians shelled it









 Военкор Коц про обстрелы ЗАЭС: Зеленский давно готовился к ядерной катастрофе


Сегодня власти города Энергодара сообщили, что удар по Запорожской АЭС был нанесен 220-мм кассетным снарядом из системы залпового огня "Ураган".




military.pravda.ru





but.... the Ukrainians are saying it was the Russians









Ukrainian state energy company says Russia mined Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant — Meduza


The Ukrainian state energy company Enerhoatom reported that Russian forces have mined the occupied Zaporizhzhia power plant. A post from the company’s official Telegram channel quoted Major General Valeriy Vasyliev from Russia’s Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection Troops as saying the...




meduza.io


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## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> According to the Russians, the Ukrainians shelled it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Военкор Коц про обстрелы ЗАЭС: Зеленский давно готовился к ядерной катастрофе
> 
> 
> Сегодня власти города Энергодара сообщили, что удар по Запорожской АЭС был нанесен 220-мм кассетным снарядом из системы залпового огня "Ураган".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> military.pravda.ru
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but.... the Ukrainians are saying it was the Russians
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukrainian state energy company says Russia mined Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant — Meduza
> 
> 
> The Ukrainian state energy company Enerhoatom reported that Russian forces have mined the occupied Zaporizhzhia power plant. A post from the company’s official Telegram channel quoted Major General Valeriy Vasyliev from Russia’s Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection Troops as saying the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> meduza.io


I know who I'm more likely to believe...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> I know who I'm more likely to believe...


Me too!


----------



## Jesthar

There have been a series of massive explosions at a russian airbase - in Crimea!  And as far as we are aware, the Ukrainians don't have any weapons that can reach that far...









Russian airbase on western coast of Crimea damaged in explosions


One person killed in Novofedorivka, 110 miles from frontline, after ‘aviation munitions detonated’ in storage area




www.theguardian.com





I love that the Ukrainian comment was more or less "you russians really should stop smoking near stuff that explodes"


----------



## Jesthar

Before and after sattelite images of the air base in Crimea: 



















And that kind of puts paid to the 'no aircraft were harmed in the exploding of this air base' line from the russians. Initial estimates are that around 9 aircraft have been destroyed or damaged beyond immediate repair, hopefully that will be a low estimate...


----------



## white_shadow

.
Today's Guardian has a piece on this....with an interactive 'graphic' showing the "before" (August 9) and "after" (August 10) satellite views with a adjustable sliding margin in the centre - click on the centre button and slide it back and forth, left/right. Quite a dramatic presentation there! It's the second image here: *Russian Warplanes Destroyed in Crimea - theguardian.com*

Nice job, folks !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1556997753523380224
.


----------



## white_shadow

.
There's a lot of detail in this piece that I haven't seen elsewhere: *A Look at Missile Systems....nbcnews.com*
.


----------



## Magyarmum

Worrying!





__





Scientists simulate spread of radiation in case of accident at Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant







www.pravda.com.ua





*Scientists simulate spread of radiation in case of accident at Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Worrying!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists simulate spread of radiation in case of accident at Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pravda.com.ua
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Scientists simulate spread of radiation in case of accident at Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant*


It can be, but Zaporizhzhia isn't Chernobyl - it's much better constructed and shielded. I suspect Putin's main aim here is to either try and scare the west into pressuring Ukraine to negotiate for fear of nuclear stuff blowing up, or try and convince the world Ukraine are shelling the power plant not them, or a combination of the two.

On a lighter note, I found a pun today I haven't seen before - "Putin’s Special Military Floperation" 😂


----------



## OrientalSlave

Jesthar said:


> It can be, but Zaporizhzhia isn't Chernobyl - it's much better constructed and shielded. I suspect Putin's main aim here is to either try and scare the west into pressuring Ukraine to negotiate for fear of nuclear stuff blowing up, or try and convince the world Ukraine are shelling the power plant not them, or a combination of the two.
> 
> On a lighter note, I found a pun today I haven't seen before - "Putin’s Special Military Floperation" 😂


The actual reactors are indeed very well protected, and probably safe. But I have read there is waste stored much less safely on the site, and that is the risk.


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## DogLover1981

One positive of this conflict, if any, is that it could make wars less common in the future. This full scale conflict has lead to costs for both sides of the war. Even with various countries restraining from using nuclear weapons, modern conventional weapons can cause huge amounts of destruction to all sides of a conflict. It's a _double_ mutually assured destruction and we likely haven't seen all that NATO has to offer because they'd prefer to keep weapons and such classified. I imagine that even some officials in China and elsewhere in the world are rather unsettled about it all.


----------



## stuaz

DogLover1981 said:


> One positive of this conflict, if any, is that it could make wars less common in the future. This full scale conflict has lead to costs for both sides of the war. Even with various countries restraining from using nuclear weapons, modern conventional weapons can cause huge amounts of destruction to all sides of a conflict. It's a _double_ mutually assured destruction and we likely haven't seen all that NATO has to offer because they'd prefer to keep weapons and such classified. I imagine that even some officials in China and elsewhere in the world are rather unsettled about it all.


I bet there are a lot of military planners watching every inch of the conflict as not only learning about Russia but also studying how a “modern” conflict with both sides equipped unfolds.


----------



## white_shadow

.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562711259363278848.


----------



## Jesthar

Another high profile russian businessman who spoke out against the war has died after 'accidentally' falling out of a hospital window. (yeah, right - 'accidentally falling out/off buildings' is currently one of the leading causes of death amongst Putin critics...)









Ravil Maganov: Russian Lukoil chief dies in 'fall from hospital window'


Lukoil boss Ravil Maganov is the latest Russian businessman to die in mysterious circumstances.



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Jesthar

I didn't want to speak too soon, but over the last few days some very positive reports about gains by the Ukrainians have been coming out on the sources I watch regularly, Now it's officially confirmend by Zelensky - 1,000 square kilometers has been liberated over the last week in the Kherson and Kharkiv regions! Mainly Kharkiv, with some reports saying they are close to cutting off the russian central hub at Izyum from supply or retreat.









Ukraine has retaken 1,000 square kilometres in a week - Zelensky


Kyiv says a lightning counter-offensive has recaptured vast swathes of territory in its south and east.



www.bbc.co.uk





I do hope they can consolidate these gains, it will be a delicate balance between momentum and logistics! There are a lot of videos doing the rounds showing russian positions, equipment and ammunition simply abandoned in significant quantity. Hopefully the russians can't get enough reinforcements to the areas to make a difference...


----------



## Calvine

Boxer123 said:


> I am still following the news but haven’t posted because I honestly don’t know what to say it’s just horrific. My village are still collecting resources for Ukraine. We have had some families move to the area their stories are humbling.


It's very sad; and I've read a few times that many people are now saying that in the present financial climate they do not think they will be able to continue housing Ukrainan refugees once the original six-month agreed period is up - and that many more are being removed from places considered ''unsuitable'' for women and children.


----------



## Boxer123

Calvine said:


> It's very sad; and I've read a few times that many people are now saying that in the present financial climate they do not think they will be able to continue housing Ukrainan refugees once the original six-month agreed period is up - and that many more are being removed from places considered ''unsuitable'' for women and children.


I think also reality is setting in families are getting little support to navigate everything and host families are not equipped to support them.


----------



## DogLover1981

Apparently there was an incident at the Russian embassy in Canada. Possibly related to the war in Ukraine.


----------



## kimthecat

Four occupied Ukraine regions plan imminent ‘votes’ on joining Russia


‘Referendum’ announcements in Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson may indicate move to annex territories




www.theguardian.com




Four Russian-occupied regions in Ukraine have said they are planning to hold “referendums” on joining the Russian Federation in a series of coordinated announcements that could indicate the Kremlin has made a decision to formally annex the territories.

Moscow may be betting that a formal annexation would help halt Russian territorial losses, after a successful Ukrainian counteroffensive that has reclaimed large portions of territory in the Kharkiv region.


The occupied Donetsk and Luhansk regions have said they are ready to hold “polls”, which will be universally viewed as rigged, as soon as this week, with announcements also made in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. Some Russian media have reported that Vladimir Putin may deliver a speech on Tuesday evening on a potential annexation.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Four occupied Ukraine regions plan imminent ‘votes’ on joining Russia
> 
> 
> ‘Referendum’ announcements in Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson may indicate move to annex territories
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Four Russian-occupied regions in Ukraine have said they are planning to hold “referendums” on joining the Russian Federation in a series of coordinated announcements that could indicate the Kremlin has made a decision to formally annex the territories.
> 
> Moscow may be betting that a formal annexation would help halt Russian territorial losses, after a successful Ukrainian counteroffensive that has reclaimed large portions of territory in the Kharkiv region.
> 
> 
> The occupied Donetsk and Luhansk regions have said they are ready to hold “polls”, which will be universally viewed as rigged, as soon as this week, with announcements also made in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. Some Russian media have reported that Vladimir Putin may deliver a speech on Tuesday evening on a potential annexation.


Yeah, that's not good for a number of reasons. As you say, any vote WILL be rigged, but it will give Putin the excuse to declare them russian territories and go for full mobilisation as from Moscow's warped perspective Ukraine will no longer be defending and liberating Ukraine, it will be 'attacking russia'. He's also probably hoping to tempt Ukraine into doing something stupid and get their troops killed trying to stop it. Mainly he's desparate for mobilisation (as next to no-one is volunteering any more, even with tougher rules rushed through for ), but he''ll also be hoping that it will encourage the West to tell Ukraine to settle for what they still hold, as the rest is lost and not worth the risk to recover because nukes... (and no,they're not going to use them, but fear is fear)

At least, that's his hope. Last, desparate roll of the dice, really...


----------



## huckybuck

He’s also hurrying through laws to punish any soldier who voluntarily surrenders etc - and introducing concepts such as mobilisation and war time. He is panicking.


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## DogLover1981

There's already protests in Russia and reports of people intentionally hurting themselves so that they don't have to serve in the military. Putin could be playing with fire because there's a smallish to moderately sized segment of the population that's very against this war. Forcing people into a conflict that they don't agree with, where they could possibly be killed, could result in even worse performance from the Russian military.


----------



## huckybuck

The frightening thing is when he claims victory in the referendums for the provinces (which he obv will as they will be rigged) he will then make all the “Ex” Ukrainian men in those areas fight on behalf of Russia. He’s introducing harsh laws about refusal to sign up and desertion. It doesn’t bear thinking about.


----------



## Jesthar

huckybuck said:


> The frightening thing is when he claims victory in the referendums for the provinces (which he obv will as they will be rigged) he will then make all the “Ex” Ukrainian men in those areas fight on behalf of Russia. He’s introducing harsh laws about refusal to sign up and desertion. It doesn’t bear thinking about.


Too late. Luhansk and Donetsk already did that when they announced total mobilisation at the start of the invasion (including the infirm, elderly and disabled), they were heavily used as cannon fodder in Mariupol and on the Donetsk front lines (the cynical speculate this was to protect the 'real russians' and the mercenaries from taking fire). Most of the pictures we've seen of troops in cheap trainers with ancient weapons and vehicles are of them. They had roundups in Crimea too, some nasty stories came out about men being told to fight or their families would be punished.

Not sure about Kharkiv, Kherson or Zaphorizia, russia advanced pretty fast in some of those areas, but much of Kharkiv has now been liberated, and hopefully most of the able men managed to get out with the idea of joining the Ukrainian armed forces in the initial days.

Anyway, the main reason for this mobilisation is they are now running out of those cannon fodder troops, and no-one sane in russia is prepared to volunteer any more. There are street protests in many cities, despite protesting carrying a sentance of 15 years in jail.


----------



## DogLover1981

Lots of news from Ukraine over the past week. The Russian military is losing territory and there are lots of protests against mobilization in Russia.


----------



## DogLover1981

The Ukrainian military continues to take back Ukrainian territory. I remember earlier in the war when the Russians abandoned highly sensitive equipment that was later discovered. I do wonder what they'll discover now.

Someone, possibly, likely, the Russian military, bombed the Nordstream pipelines. I have also seen reports of possible damage to the pipelines in Ukraine. The gas coming into Europe from Russia isn't likely to last much longer, IMO.

The Russian leadership could be creating severe and long lasting economic damage to their country. The gas production is/was a huge percentage of the Russian economy. That could go along with a humiliating defeat in Ukraine.


----------



## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> The Russian leadership could be creating severe and long lasting economic damage to their country. The gas production is/was a huge percentage of the Russian economy.


I have seen it reported that gas production was more than half of the Russian economy. Putin has lost his mind.


----------



## Calvine

DogLover1981 said:


> There's already protests in Russia and reports of people intentionally hurting themselves so that they don't have to serve in the military. Putin could be playing with fire because there's a smallish to moderately sized segment of the population that's very against this war. Forcing people into a conflict that they don't agree with, where they could possibly be killed, could result in even worse performance from the Russian military.


I read that many are googling ''how to break a leg painlessly'' etc to make themselves of no use in combat.


----------



## Siskin

Calvine said:


> I read that many are googling ''how to break a leg painlessly'' etc to make themselves of no use in combat.


There is no way of breaking a leg painlessly as I can verify


----------



## Calvine

Siskin said:


> There is no way of breaking a leg painlessly as I can verify


Search requests for how to break limbs 'painlessly' trend from Russia | Simcoe Reformer 

Indeed, no, I'm sure there isn't; but I guess if you are desperate you live in hope.


----------



## Magyarmum

Too close for comfort A dispatch from Russia’s Belgorod region, where the war against Ukraine has become impossible to ignore — Meduza


Since the launch of its counteroffensive in late summer, the Ukrainian army has managed to liberate about 8,500 square kilometers (about 3,280 square miles) of its territory from Russian occupation, mostly in the Kharkiv region. On September 11, Ukrainian forces reached the Russian border...




meduza.io













Deputies from Bashkiria prepare bill on sending convicts to war in Ukraine — Meduza


MPs from the parliament of the Republic of Bashkiria have prepared and submitted a bill to the State Duma which establishes a legal basis for sending convicts to war. This was reported by Interfax, citing the speaker of the State Assembly, Konstantin Tolkachev. This bill was not in the State...




meduza.io


----------



## Calvine

Whatever happened to the possibly terminal illness tha Putin was supposedly suffering from? I thought even before it was mentioned that he didn't look right, sort of pale and bloated as if he was on meds and very unlike his former self. That was back in March or April; but he's still apparently in charge of things. I seriously thought that by now we'd have seen the back of him.


----------



## huckybuck

He didn’t look as poorly this week. I wonder if at the time he was on chemo but has finished now.


----------



## DogLover1981

Russia appears to have lost yet more territory since my last post. Ukrainian authorities are considering their plans for Crimea as well.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> Russia appears to have lost yet more territory since my last post. Ukrainian authorities are considering their plans for Crimea as well.











Frustration with Ukraine war spills out on Russian state TV


Russia’s retreat from a key Ukrainian city over the weekend elicited outcry from an unlikely crowd – state-run media outlets that typically speak glowingly about Moscow’s war




abcnews.go.com


----------



## Happy Paws2

Made me laugh....

In the Czech capital, Prague, demonstrators mocked Russia's president with a giant dummy depicting him as a naked emperor sitting on a golden toilet.

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Made me laugh....
> 
> In the Czech capital, Prague, demonstrators mocked Russia's president with a giant dummy depicting him as a naked emperor sitting on a golden toilet.
> 
> __
> Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
> Show Content


They're holding a meeting of European leaders in Prague at the moment. 

Russia wasn't invited.









European leaders gather in Prague, Russia not invited


Leaders meet to launch a ‘European Political Community’ to boost security and economic prosperity across the continent.




www.aljazeera.com


----------



## Magyarmum

The Ukranians wished Uncle Vlad a memorable 70th birthday by blowing up a vital bridge.









Large explosion reported at bridge connecting Russia to Crimea as roadway section collapses into Kerch Strait — Meduza


A fire that started on October 8 on the bridge connecting Crimea and Russia has been mostly extinguished. The fire started after an apparent attack blew up a freight truck, which caused seven fuel tanks on a passing train to ignite. Though the fire burned on the bridge’s train tracks, part of...




meduza.io


----------



## huckybuck

Happy Paws2 said:


> Made me laugh....
> 
> In the Czech capital, Prague, demonstrators mocked Russia's president with a giant dummy depicting him as a naked emperor sitting on a golden toilet.
> 
> __
> Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
> Show Content


Brilliant!!!


----------



## white_shadow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578636142055870464


----------



## DogLover1981

One point I have seen mentioned is that the brutal war tactics that the Russian military has been using throughout this war can be counterproductive, especially when people have a means to defend themselves. Destroying people's homes, destroying cultural and historic buildings/sites, ruining their lives, raping and torturing and killing their neighbors all can make people extremely angry and even more willing to fight and/or join the military. I have seen some very strong emotions from people in Ukraine.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> One point I have seen mentioned is that the brutal war tactics that the Russian military has been using throughout this war can be counterproductive, especially when people have a means to defend themselves. Destroying people's homes, destroying cultural and history buildings/sites, ruining their lives, raping and torturing and killing their neighbors all can people extremely angry and even more willing to fight and/or join the military. I have seen some very strong emotions from people in Ukraine.


I think this confirms what you say. (Hope the link works)








Ukraine.ua


Ukraine.ua. နှစ်သက်သူ ၂၄၈,၉၂၅ ဦး · ၃၂,၈၂၉ ဦး ဒီအကြေင်းပြေနေသည်. The official Facebook page of Ukraine – an innovative, diverse and dynamic country!




www.facebook.com


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## Magyarmum

Not good news. 

Kyiv and other cities throughout Ukraine are being heavily bombed. Mainly civilian targets are being hit.









US and UN condemn brutality after missile strikes – as it happened


This blog is now closed




www.theguardian.com


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## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> I have seen it reported that gas production was more than half of the Russian economy. Putin has lost his mind.


Russia is offering to export gas to Germany through the undamaged pipeline but they are not encountering much interest at this point. It's almost as if the people at the Kremlin have realized their error and want to start exporting gas again. lol


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## DogLover1981

The UN voted 143-5 to condemn Russia with 35 abstaining.








U.N. members vote overwhelmingly to condemn Russia's annexation in Ukraine


By a 143-5 vote, the General Assembly condemned Russia's "attempted illegal annexation" of four Ukrainian territories.




www.cbsnews.com


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## Jesthar

DogLover1981 said:


> Russia is offering to export gas to Germany through the undamaged pipeline but they are not encountering much interest at this point. It's almost as if the people at the Kremlin have realized their error and want to start exporting gas again. lol


Isn't it just! You know, when I was a kid, I bought a book called "What Grown-Ups Say And What They Really Mean" (really funny book, still have it!). I'm starting to think we need something similar for Moscow double-speak...

I'll start: 
*
What Moscow Says: *"We are ready to supply additional volumes of gas in the autumn-winter period"
*What Moscow Really Means:* "Please buy our gas! We're running short of funds for our war effort..."


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## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Isn't it just! You know, when I was a kid, I bought a book called "What Grown-Ups Say And What They Really Mean" (really funny book, still have it!). I'm starting to think we need something similar for Moscow double-speak...
> 
> I'll start:
> 
> *What Moscow Says: *"We are ready to supply additional volumes of gas in the autumn-winter period"
> *What Moscow Really Means:* "Please buy our gas! We're running short of funds for our war effort..."


According to Forbes Russia spent between $400 and $700 million on bombing Ukraine yesterday! Not something you can afford to do every day!



https://babel.ua/en/news/85449-forbes-the-value-of-the-missiles-and-drones-that-the-russians-laun


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## kimthecat

Russian bombing has backfired as Nato countries pledge weaponry to Ukraine









Nato countries to boost Ukraine's missile defence after massive Russian strikes


Advanced air defence weaponry will be delivered in the wake of devastating Russian missile strikes.



www.bbc.co.uk





*Ukraine's Nato-led allies have announced deliveries of advanced air defence weapons to Kyiv, after a spate of Russian missile strikes.*
The weaponry promised by the UK, Canada, France and the Netherlands includes missiles and radars. The US earlier made a similar pledge. One high-tech system from Germany is already in Ukraine.
The pledges come as Ukraine's allies from 50 countries meet at Nato headquarters in Brussels.
Kyiv hailed the summit as "historic".


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## DogLover1981

Magyarmum said:


> According to Forbes Russia spent between $400 and $700 million on bombing Ukraine yesterday! Not something you can afford to do every day!


That's about 0.5% of the Ukrainian GDP before the war which is huge. O.O


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## DogLover1981

It's interesting to read the posts in the beginning of this thread compared to now. The war has progressed since February and circumstances have changed. There's even some posts that I'm embarrassed about. O.O


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## DogLover1981

The chances of it are considered low but apparently various countries are preparing for the possibility of panic if Russia were to use nuclear weapons. O.O


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## Jesthar

DogLover1981 said:


> The chances of it are considered low but apparently various countries are preparing for the possibility of panic if Russia were to use nuclear weapons. O.O


Well, better to be prepared than not. The chances of it actually happening are very, very remote, though - for starters, it only takes one person in the chain of command to refuse to carry out the order (which they can do if they believe the order is illegal, and ordering a nuclear strike on Ukraine would be illegal under current russian doctrine), and the launch order is averted. Putler is not popular with the military right now, and I suspect most of the russian generals would prefer to avoid going nuclear for self preservation reasons. As would most of the russian population. Also, nukes are of zero tactical use in Ukraine on the battlefield.

And even if russia did push the button and nuke somewhere in Ukraine, no-one else is going to launch nukes in retalation. There would be far better ways of responding which don't involve giving Putler an excuse to escalate further. As in bye bye all the rest of the banking options, all external trade, all diplimatic relationships etc - plus giving Ukraine ALL the weapons. Even China isn't going to want to risk being seen to be friends with someone who WILL push the button, or no-one will do business with them, either - and their economy is already in serious trouble and way more dependent on the West than on russia.


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## Maurey

Putin isn’t popular with anyone right now 🤷🏻 he’s been threatening nukes for a while now, and at this stage, it’s very fortunately not realistic, unless something drastic happens.


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## DogLover1981

Putin and the Russian military would be out of their minds if they used nuclear weapons on Europe and there's another risk for them and that's related to what none of us of know about. God knows what ultra classified technology could exist behind closed doors throughout Europe and NATO. There could be a secret means to deflect nuclear weapons which would result in Russia becoming a nuclear wasteland while Europe and Ukraine are unscathed. A horrendous outcome for Putin.

It has been over 70 years since nuclear weapons were used in a conflict. There's many unknowns that could create wild ride for us all and lots of risk for the Kremlin.


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## Magyarmum

Two articles that I think are well worth reading.









Will Putin Use Nuclear Weapons? Watch These Indicators.


I asked several experts to share the indicators they’re tracking most closely to determine whether Russian nuclear use in Ukraine is imminent—and to help us all separate the signal from the noise.




www.theatlantic.com













Why Russia is pushing a return to negotiations The Kremlin wants to buy time to prepare for a ‘full-scale offensive’ in early 2023, sources say — Meduza


Since the success of Ukraine's massive counteroffensive in early September, Russian officials have repeatedly raised the possibility of peace talks — even after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky signed a decree officially ruling out the possibility of Ukraine ever negotiating with Vladimir...




meduza.io


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## DogLover1981

I highly doubt that there's going to be any peace deals at this point, especially with all the assistance that the Ukrainian military is getting. I did read that there's additional assistance coming for the mud and winter seasons. I doubt there's much trust of the Kremlin as well.


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> I highly doubt that there's going to be any peace deals at this point, especially with all the assistance that the Ukrainian military is getting. I did read that there's additional assistance coming for the mud and winter seasons. I doubt there's much trust of the Kremlin as well.


Of course there won't be any negotiations whilst Putin is still president. Zelensky has rulled this out by signing an official decree to this effect. 









Zelensky signs decree to rule out negotiation with Putin as 'impossible'


Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky has signed a decree formally declaring the prospect of any Ukrainian talks with Russia's Vladimir Putin as 'impossible'




www.livemint.com





Despite the fact that winter is always harsh in Ukraine, they, the Ukranians, will still have the advantage in that they're better trained, clothed and equipped and most importantly fighting on home ground. I envision something similar to what happened to the German army at Stalingrad happening to the Russians.


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## Maurey

Sadly, Putin’ll be president till he’s dead, more or less. He rigged the vote for his presidential term annulment, so he can be president as he wishes, pretty much.


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## Magyarmum

Maurey said:


> Sadly, Putin’ll be president till he’s dead, more or less. He rigged the vote for his presidential term annulment, so he can be president as he wishes, pretty much.


Let's hope he goes in much the same way as Stalin who suffered a massive stroke, but because everyone was too scared to disturb him, he was left to die on his own.









The True Story of the Death of Stalin


“Veep” creator Armando Iannucci’s upcoming dark comedy pulls from the stranger-than-fiction real-life events surrounding Stalin’s death




www.smithsonianmag.com


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## DogLover1981

I probably should look into this more. I have been leery of throwing around the "big" word of genocide. I have read and seen some ominous stuff about what's happening in occupied and formerly occupied regions of Ukraine. Destroying of cultural sites and libraries, the kidnapping of children, forced relocations to Russia, Bucha in the beginning of the conflict, etc. I think we may have an even clearer picture in the future. It sounds like this is all an attempt at killing Ukrainians, destroying their culture and occupying the region. 

Apparently some of this coming right out of the mouths of the leadership in Russia as well.








Russia’s genocidal propaganda must not be passed off as freedom of speech | Peter Pomerantsev


As cases of war crimes pile up against Russia, can peddlers of hate be held to account?




www.theguardian.com


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> I probably should look into this more. I have been leery of throwing around the "big" word of genocide. I have read and seen some ominous stuff about what's happening in occupied and formerly occupied regions of Ukraine. Destroying of cultural sites and libraries, the kidnapping of children, forced relocations to Russia, Bucha in the beginning of the conflict, etc. I think we may have an even clearer picture in the future. It sounds like this is all an attempt at killi ng Ukrainians, destroying their culture and occupying the region.
> 
> Apparently some of this coming right out of the mouths of the leadership in Russia as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia’s genocidal propaganda must not be passed off as freedom of speech | Peter Pomerantsev
> 
> 
> As cases of war crimes pile up against Russia, can peddlers of hate be held to account?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


WARNING Not for the faint hearted.


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## Magyarmum

Putin has just declared martial law in the annexed regions of Ukraine.









Putin declares martial law in annexed Ukrainian regions


Ukrainian forces advanced on Russian positions in the eastern parts of the country, particularly the critical city of Kherson.




www.nbcnews.com


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## DogLover1981

To add to my previous post, apparently there was recently a man on Russia TV calling for the drowning and burning alive of Ukrainian children. O.O


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## Calvine

DogLover1981 said:


> To add to my previous post, apparently there was recently a man on Russia TV calling for the drowning and burning alive of Ukrainian children. O.O


Saw that, a newsreader wasn't he?


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> To add to my previous post, apparently there was recently a man on Russia TV calling for the drowning and burning alive of Ukrainian children. O.O





Calvine said:


> Saw that, a newsreader wasn't he?











‘You get carried away’ Director of RT’s Russian service suspended and investigated after calling for Ukrainian children to be drowned and burned — Meduza


Russian state propaganda network RT has suspended Anton Krasovsky, the broadcasting director for its Russian-language service, after he called for Russian-speaking Ukrainian children who oppose Russia to be “drowned” and “burned” in one of his broadcasts. RT Editor-in-chief Margarita Simonyan...




meduza.io


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## Jesthar

Carried away? _Carried away?!?_ Cheering on your favourite in a sporting event when you are suppposed to be doing impartial commentary is getting carried away. Swearing at a politician live on air because they are being a heartless bottom feeder is getting carried away.

Calling for mass infanticide is something else entirely.


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## SbanR

There's an interesting looking program on Thursday.
Inside Russia: Putin's War At Home on ITV at 2245 hrs.


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## Magyarmum

SbanR said:


> There's an interesting looking program on Thursday.
> Inside Russia: Putin's War At Home on ITV at 2245 hrs.


There's also a very interesting podcast on BBC World Service about Putin and his rise to power. (Hope the link works)









Putin - 1. The Moth - BBC Sounds


From street thug to spy – what the Russian president did before he came to power.




www.bbc.co.uk





An interesting article in The Economist about the media in Russia.









The Putin Show


How the war in Ukraine appears to Russians




www.economist.com


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## DogLover1981

Big news from Ukraine. The Ukrainian military is in Kherson.


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> Big news from Ukraine. The Ukrainian military is in Kherson.











'Absolute euphoria': CNN on the ground as Kherson celebrates liberation | CNN


CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson spoke to newly liberated residents in the Ukrainian city of Kherson after Russian forces retreated in one of the biggest setbacks for President Vladimir Putin since his invasion began.




edition.cnn.com


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## DogLover1981

There were people celebrating in the streets of Kherson. I could even see people out with their children and dogs.

I am a little confused by the talk coming out of American officials. What is there to negotiate at this stage, really? Negotiations could be rather unnecessary if the Ukrainian military succeeds in retaking all of Ukraine and the Ukrainian military is receiving training for winter combat. Officials need to be careful because the wrong move or poorly thought out negotiations could lead to new conflict in the years or decades ahead.


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## DogLover1981

This is speculation on my part... in an odd way, what the Russian military is doing could lead to permanent lasting peace in eastern Ukraine, possibly without them even intending to do so. I have noticed that most people in Ukraine want all of the cities, towns, villages and land returned.

However, before the war, there were people that wanted their cities and towns to be a part of Russia, especially in eastern Ukraine. The Russian military has been forcibly deporting and evacuating civilians before fleeing parts of eastern Ukraine. It's possible that many people that want to be a citizen of Ukraine were simply hiding and waiting for the Ukrainian military. People that want to be Russians citizens may be more willing to flee to Russia with the Russian military.

I do hope that people that have been forcibly deported to Russia and want to return to Ukraine are able to return home in the days, months and years ahead.


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## Magyarmum

The Ukrainian flag is officially raised over free Kherson! 🇺🇦 🎥 Kyrylo Tymoshenko | By Ukraine.ua | Facebook


၅.၅သောင်း views, ၃.၁ထောင် likes, ၁.၅ထောင် loves, ၃၉၆ comments, ၈၉၁ shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Ukraine.ua: The Ukrainian flag is officially raised over free Kherson! 🇺🇦 🎥 Kyrylo Tymoshenko




www.facebook.com


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## Magyarmum

The state of liberated Kherson As residents celebrate, Ukrainian authorities begin work to restore basic services — Meduza


The Ukrainian authorities in the liberated part of the Kherson region have announced “stabilization measures” that are slated to last “several weeks.” The measures will include a curfew from 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 a.m. and police inspections of the newly liberated territory for remaining Russian...




meduza.io


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## DogLover1981

wow. Two people were just killed by a missile in Poland. They're nuts. Is the Russian military trying to start World War 3 now? O.O


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## kimthecat

Lots of bad jokes on Twitter about this . 
Very sad for the two people who died, It wasnt their war.









PM Mateusz Morawiecki calls for calm after explosion – as it happened


Poland’s PM convenes urgent national security meeting after stray missiles feared to have crossed into Nato member country




www.theguardian.com


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## DogLover1981

The newest update is that the missile may have been a Russian missile that was hit by a Ukrainian missile, possibly that this was a Ukrainian missile that attempting to shoot down a Russian missile. I'm curious now.


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> The newest update is that the missile may have been a Russian missile that was hit by a Ukrainian missile, possibly that this was a Ukrainian missile that attempting to shoot down a Russian missile. I'm curious now.


It was inevitable that something like this would happen. As both sides use Russian missiles it's quite possible it could have been Ukranian. NATO are holding a meeting today to discuss the matter so hopefully we'll have more clarification later today.

Przedowodow is about 300 miles due north from where I live😱









Wybuch w Przewodowie. Najnowsze informacje i komentarze


Według Warszawy i Waszyngtonu rakieta, która zabiła wczoraj dwie osoby w Przewodowie na Lubelszczyźnie, była najprawdopodbniej pociskiem ukraińskiej obrony przeciwlotniczej. Incydent nazywany jest nieszczęśliwym wypadkiem. Kijów z kolei przekonuje, że ma dowody na “rosyjski ślad” ataku i domaga...




www-rmf24-pl.translate.goog


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## Magyarmum

Jens Soltenberg has just confirmed the missile that landed in Poland was almost certainly fired by the Ukranians.


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## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Jens Soltenberg has just confirmed the missile that landed in Poland was almost certainly fired by the Ukranians.


Probably an S300 air defence missile launched to shoot down a russian missile then.

Doesn't change anything, though. If russia wasn't lobbing missiles at Ukraine, there wouldn't be any need to fire air defence missiles in the first place...


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## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Probably an S300 air defence missile launched to shoot down a russian missile then.
> 
> Doesn't change anything, though. If russia wasn't lobbing missiles at Ukraine, there wouldn't be any need to fire air defence missiles in the first place...


It does in as much as that neither NATO nor any other entity can take any form of reprisal against Russia much as they'd love to


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## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> It does in as much as that neither NATO nor any other entity can take any form of reprisal against Russia much as they'd love to


I don't think they'd do anything direct against russia anyway, unless russia starts a deliberate missile campaign or sends troops into a NATO country. It's not worth the risk of taking direct action as it plays into the russian narrative of NATO being an agressive organisation than a defensive one (and yes, I know that narrative is false, but a lot of russians believe it), and there are far better things we can do anyway - like shiny new toys for the armed forces of Ukraine. Top of MY list would be all the air defence systems we can spare, closely followed by more means to destroy russian air defences and supply lines.


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## DogLover1981

I discovered a couple of interesting old threads on here about the original Crimea annexation and conflict in 2014. It's interesting to read in light of everything happening right now.









Anyone else extremely worried about the situation in...


Russian troops outside the Ukraine's naval base: I wonder if our govt is considering intervening? Surely Russia can't just bomb on in? The Ukraine pm is calling it a declaration of war and I agree!




www.petforums.co.uk













Ukraine...spare a thought...


a prayer, a candle...for freedom fighters in Ukraine.. bullied by Putin...not to associate with EU Klitchko brothers are true heroes...




www.petforums.co.uk





I'm not too sure what to think about my old response. lol



> I'm not too concerned about the situation in Ukraine despite all the posturing. The USA has said military involvement isn't an option. I doubt Putin wants war with others such as the USA. Putin may be a wacky and corrupt politician but he isn't stupid. At least, I don't think he is.


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## Jesthar

DogLover1981 said:


> I'm not too sure what to think about my old response. lol


Hey, even the professional intelligence services didn't think Putin would actually do it until he did, given the state of the russian army. Usually when a country is planning something big, you see it reflected in the way they prioritise military spending and how they are building their forces for several years in advance, and russia were prioritising totally the wrong things and building the wrong kind of forces to do a lighting land invasion. So russia ended up with far more surprise than they should have largely because up until just before the invasion everyone was going "they're not THAT stupid, surely?" - and then got their teeth kicked in unexpectedly because Ukraine HAD been preparing for this exact event, even if they were slower off the mark than they could have been.

Fail to plan, plan to fail is a military saying for a reason. We're seeing the brutal proof of that in Ukraine.

(I should note, I am no military strategic expert! This insight comes courtesy of the excellent Perun on YouTube, who one week in to the russian invasion made a video called "All Bling, No Basics - why Ukraine has embarrassed the Russian Military" explaining how military strategy is build strategy, and how failing to build the correct armed forces for the job had lead to the russian failure in Ukraine - and his insights still hold up to scrutiny all these months down the line. You can find it here 



 and I highly recommend it - it may be an hour long powerpoint, but it is laced with Aussie humour and both very watchable and educational)


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## DogLover1981

An interesting video from Perun about the Russian military. It's about how Russians military officials lie and just tell their superiors what they want to hear, all the way up to Putin.


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## Magyarmum

I haven't had chance yet to watch the blogs posted by @Jesthar or @doglover81. Hopefully I'll catch up over the weekend.

I thought this might be interesting as it gives a breakdown of Russia's formal chain of command. It's from Mark Galeotti's FB page. He's also just published a new book "Putin's Wars : From Chechnya to Ukraine









In Moscow's Shadows


Analysis and Assessment of Russian Crime and Security




inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com


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## DogLover1981

Throughout this war I have seen continuous speculation about Putin and his officials being removed from power. I think it's wishful thinking and wild speculation at this point.

I did read that when it does happen, it can happen quite suddenly and without warning due to more and more of a population becoming displeased. In other words, we probably won't see it coming. It could happen tomorrow or years or decades into the future. Who knows. The wild speculation is almost pointless.


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> Throughout this war I have seen continuous speculation about Putin and his officials being removed from power. I think it's wishful thinking and wild speculation at this point.
> 
> I did read that when it does happen, it can happen quite suddenly and without warning due to more and more of a population becoming displeased. In other words, we probably won't see it coming. It could happen tomorrow or years or decades into the future. Who knows. The wild speculation is almost pointless.


I think you're being optimistic about the population becoming disillusioned with Putin if only because the propaganda dished out by the Russian news media is always finely tuned in his favour.

Some articles you might like to read which seem to bear this out. 









As Putin mulls Ukraine attack, experts paint scary psychological picture of what makes him tick


Some observers think the scale of the Russian leader's dishonesty is entering the realms of fantasy, writes Michael Day




inews.co.uk













Vladimir Putin at Home


Unless the West can prod the Russian people to fundamentally reexamine their core beliefs, any notion that they will take matters into their own hands regarding Putin’s Ukraine war is just wishful thinking.




www.washingtoninstitute.org













To Avoid Answering Hard Questions at Home, Putin Will Keep Fighting in Ukraine







www.wilsoncenter.org


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## Magyarmum

Kyiv Says Negotiations With Russia Akin To Capitulation As Ukraine Begins Evacuations From Liberated Areas


Attempts by Western countries to convince Ukraine to negotiate with Moscow after a series of major military victories over invading Russian forces are "bizarre" and effectively ask that Kyiv capitulate to the losing side, according to a key adviser to the Ukrainian president.




www.rferl.org


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## Magyarmum

How Ukraine's Holodomor Famine Was Secretly Photographed | Ukraine will remember the victims of the Holodomor famine on Saturday. Millions of people died of starvation between 1932 and 1933 when Soviet... | By Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty | Facebook


66K views, 313 likes, 5 loves, 152 comments, 379 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty: Ukraine will remember the victims of the Holodomor famine on Saturday. Millions...




www.facebook.com


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## Magyarmum

People In Moscow Asked What Russia Has Gained Or Lost From Attack On Ukraine | People in Moscow were asked about the impact of Russia's "special military operation" on Ukraine -- the Kremlin's wording for the invasion of its western... | By Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty | Facebook


100K views, 714 likes, 3 loves, 489 comments, 184 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty: People in Moscow were asked about the impact of Russia's "special military...




www.facebook.com


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## DogLover1981

There were explosions at airbases in Russia. I do wonder if the Ukrainian military has found a way to target the airbases.








Explosions rock two Russian airbases far from Ukraine frontline


Russia confirms blasts at military facilities as Kyiv finds way to target long-range bombers




www.theguardian.com


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> There were explosions at airbases in Russia. I do wonder if the Ukrainian military has found a way to target the airbases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Explosions rock two Russian airbases far from Ukraine frontline
> 
> 
> Russia confirms blasts at military facilities as Kyiv finds way to target long-range bombers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com











Hundreds of miles past the border Why Ukraine's recent strikes on Russian air bases could signal a turning point in the war — Meduza


Two days in a row this week, the Ukrainian Armed Forces used drones to strike targets deep within Russia. Satellite images from December 5 show that Ukraine hit the Engels air base near Saratov and the Dyagilevo air base near Ryazan. Within a few hours, the Russian Aerospace Forces used aircraft...




meduza.io


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## Magyarmum

An interesting podcast. Mark Galeotti in conversation with Andrew Keen









How Putin Thinks Like a Warmongering 19th-Century Imperialist and Why Ukraine Will Be His Last Colonial War


Hosted by Andrew Keen, Keen On features conversations with some of the world’s leading thinkers and writers about the economic, political, and technological issues being discussed in the news, righ…




lithub.com


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## DogLover1981

My area was on the news for news related to Ukraine. A man was arrested for help smuggling materials into Russia.

He's lucky. If I was the judge, I would've denied bail due to flight risk. Given the fact that he was basically helping the Russian military, he's definitely a flight risk now. He might attempt to travel to Russia to avoid prison, especially in the current enviroment. O.O









Case accusing Merrimack man of smuggling for Russia 'complicated, complex'


Altered, forged and destroyed shipping documents were part of a scheme that federal authorities say a New Hampshire man was involved in as he worked in a smuggling ring to send banned technology to Russia.




www.wmur.com


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## DogLover1981

The Ukrainian military might be provided with Patriot missiles soon.


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> The Ukrainian military might be provided with Patriot missiles soon.


Zelensky's visiting Biden in Washington todayand will address Congress. Hope everything goes smoothly.

Putin must be fuming!









Zelensky planning to visit Washington to address Congress


This would be Zelensky’s first in-person visit to the U.S. since Russia invaded Ukraine in February.




www.axios.com


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## DogLover1981

Zelensky traveled to Washington for a speech. The Ukrainian military is getting Patriot missiles from the USA and more weapons from elsewhere. I imagine the Russian military is displeased.


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> Zelensky traveled to Washington for a speech. The Ukrainian military is getting Patriot missiles from the USA and more weapons from elsewhere. I imagine the Russian military is displeased.


Comments about his visit in today's Tass.









US actions in Ukraine may lead to unpredictable consequences, warns Russian diplomat


"It was stressed that the provocative actions by the US are steadily leading to an escalation, the consequences of which cannot even be imagined," Russian Ambassador to the United States Anatoly Antonov said




tass.com





And in Pravda ru









Зеленский нарушает закон Украины визитом в США, но надо подумать о себе


Визит Владимира Зеленского в США больше нужен Джо Байдену — для имиджа, и Зеленскому — для личных целей. Надо уже думать о бегстве в США.




www.pravda.ru


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## Magyarmum

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2335888736574955


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## DogLover1981

There was a major strike on a Russian base in occupied territory. Many were killed and I'm seeing different numbers depending on the source.


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## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> There was a major strike on a Russian base in occupied territory. Many were killed and I'm seeing different numbers depending on the source.


The Russians say around 60 men were killed but I believe the Ukrainians claim it could have been a couple of hundred. Whatever, apparently according to what I've read, Russian heads are going to drop for making a fundamental mistake of billeting soldiers next to a cache of ammunition!

Thought you might find this interesting @DogLover1981 









'It's Not His Country, It's Ours': The Russian 'Partisans' At War With The Kremlin


A documentary released by independent journalist Jake Hanrahan details the Russian saboteurs undermining Putin's war effort.




www.rferl.org


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## DogLover1981

I know this isn't directly related to the war and they are technically in a state of war but I'm not keen about the new law regarding news outlets. It appears to be getting pushback in Ukraine.









Zelensky accused of censorship over Ukraine media law


The new legislation expands the authority of Ukraine's state broadcasting council to regulate all media in the country.




www.newsweek.com


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## Magyarmum

Breking news.

Putin orders a two day cease fire to celebrate the Russian Orthodox Christmas









Putin orders ceasefire in Ukraine over Orthodox Christmas


Russian president calls for truce after ceasefire plea by Patriarch Kirill was rejected by Kyiv as a trap.




www.aljazeera.com


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## kimthecat

What a waste of lives on both sides all because of the ego of one man. 😢


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## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Breking news.
> 
> Putin orders a two day cease fire to celebrate the Russian Orthodox Christmas
> 
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> Putin orders ceasefire in Ukraine over Orthodox Christmas
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> Russian president calls for truce after ceasefire plea by Patriarch Kirill was rejected by Kyiv as a trap.
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> www.aljazeera.com


You can bet he wouldn't be doing that if he was winning!


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