# Slip mating...more info please.



## Guest (Aug 29, 2012)

My cousin contacted me today to say that she had taken her pomeranian to the stud earlier and this particular stud wasn't yet proven,they have both had all relevant health test etc...
Anyway the bitch stood for him straight away and the dog was having a real good go but he just couldn't seem to "do the deed"....he entered her on several occaisons but only for a matter of seconds,when they decided to finally give up the dog was clearly still "trying"...the stud owner then said she still expected payment as this was classed as a slip mating,my cousin refused to pay her as they didn't tie...but said she would try him again tomorrow,the stud owner then told her not to bother and got quite stroppy.
Is it normal practice to pay for the stud even if they didn't actually tie?
And would my cousin be able to now take her girl to her backup stud?


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

If the bitch is took to a back up stud then the pups would have to be DNA tested.My first litter was produced from a non tie mating although i do always like to have a tie.I think that she probably should have paid the stud fee and any stud dog owner worth their salt will usually provide a second mating free of charge if no puppies are produced.Think they probably gave up too soon.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

This probably should have been sorted before the mating!

As BJT says, has the stud dog owner not said they can come back next season if no pups are produced?


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2012)

Yes i think you both have a point and i'd say that this obviously wasn't spoke about beforehand...the stud owner didn't seem to want to try again tomorrow so i don't know what to think,i don't think the bitch should be taken to the backup stud myself as like was said,dna testing would have to be done even if thier is the slight chance of her being caught during this so called slip mating.
My other question would be...would the stud still be wanting to carry on trying to mate even if he had ejaculated in her....sorry to sound so crude


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

As you say he is inexperienced so he wouldn't quite know when too stop but he could have let a little sperm go..There might have been a slight difference in height which could have caused the problem.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Mmmm.... was it a reputable stud owner? 

What were the stud owners reasons for not trying again? Was the bitch progesterone tested?


----------



## gayle38 (Jul 16, 2012)

my bitch was mated three times all ties. would not of paid stud fee if there was no tie. bit of a cheek esp when stud not proven.


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Mmmm.... was it a reputable stud owner?
> 
> What were the stud owners reasons for not trying again? Was the bitch progesterone tested?


yes they are reputable breeders found through showing and yes she was tested,it had been planned for quite a while.
I don't know her reasons for not trying again,i think she was just a little peeved because my cousin didn't pay up


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Well, to a certain extent I can understand the stud owner being a bit peeved.
You're paying a for a stud service not a litter or a tie, unless this is specified beforehand. 

Stud contracts vary so much which is why it should be sorted beforehand to avoid problems like this, but it's obviously too late for that.

It is possible that she may have pups from a slip mating but obviously she won't know till she is scanned. Unfortunately, having refused to pay because they didn't achieve a tie is likely to have caused a bad, mistrustful relationship between them, which is not good for anyone.

Personally, I think your cousin probably needs to eat humble pie and try to rebuild it and come to some terms where she can get a repeat mating if she doesn't take this time and pay the stud owner what is due.

The alternative is to walk away and try the alternative stud on her next season, but be warned the show world is a small one and breeders/stud owners do talk to each other, so your cousin's story could well get out to the other stud owner too, making him/her unwilling to have his/her stud used.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

wiley80 said:


> My cousin contacted me today to say that she had taken her pomeranian to the stud earlier and this particular stud wasn't yet proven,they have both had all relevant health test etc...
> Anyway the bitch stood for him straight away and the dog was having a real good go but he just couldn't seem to "do the deed"....he entered her on several occaisons but only for a matter of seconds,when they decided to finally give up the dog was clearly still "trying"...the stud owner then said she still expected payment as this was classed as a slip mating,my cousin refused to pay her as they didn't tie...but said she would try him again tomorrow,the stud owner then told her not to bother and got quite stroppy.
> Is it normal practice to pay for the stud even if they didn't actually tie?
> And would my cousin be able to now take her girl to her backup stud?


Notwithstanding variations between breeds - asking a stud fee there and then for an unproven dog is, IMHO, out of order (even if the dogs had tied).

My boy's first litter is hopefully on its way - I've not taken a stud fee as yet as I am waiting to see the pups first with the option to pay the extra and bring a pup back in - but as a first timer, normally, you would ask for the stud fee at confirmation of pregnancy.

If the dog is proven, and does have a tendency to slip matings (ties really aren't necessary to get a bitch in whelp) - then I don't consider that unreasonable to ask for the stud fee with a free repeat mating on the next season if the bitch doesn't catch.

but for me at least -

"maiden dog" + "slip mating" = "no stud fee until pregnancy confirmed".

==========================

As for the back up stud - if there has been a definite slip mating then yes - i she is of a mind to she could go to the back up stud, however..............

She MUST then DNA test all pups and if they have two different sires, she must pay two stud fees and register them as two litters.

Only she can make the decision - personally, if I was in her shoes I would be returning for a second mating with the original stud dog - no money to change hands until pregnancy is confirmed - and if it isn't - go to her backup stud next time..

Interestingly, I've spoken to a few people who say that it can take a few bitches for the dogs to actually tie - but my experience on the stud side is much more limited than as a bitch owner.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> asking a stud fee there and then for an unproven dog is, IMHO, out of order


Must have missed that bit cos I didn't realise the stud dog was unproven - so agree with that.

However, this really should have been sorted before and if your cousin had done a bit of research she should have realised that it is not the norm to ask for a stud fee for an unproven dog.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

gayle38 said:


> my bitch was mated three times all ties. would not of paid stud fee if there was no tie. bit of a cheek esp when stud not proven.


There is no need for a tie in order for the bitch to get pregnant.

If the dog is proven - then tie or slip mate, the stud dog owner has the right to his fee

As in this case, the stud isn't proven - then no, a stud fee shouldn't change hands until the bitch is confirmed in whelp - doesn't matter whether it is a tie or a slip.

The first stud dog I used we had a slip and two ties - he was proven - but as I understand it, some of his other litters had been through slips. The last litter he ever sired was 12 pups at 12 years of age


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Agree with Swarthy that no fee should be charged for stud services from an unproven stud at least not until pups arrive...if they do.

Secondly..no reasonable stud owner would expect stud fee without a tie being achieved...at least until...if...pregnancy is confirmed.

I wouldnt go there this season now with any stud. If the slip mating took and the bitch is pregnant then you will have to give the money over to get KC reg details. If the bitch is not pregnant then a stud should be sought for next season and terms must be agreed BEFORE the event...... in writing.


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2012)

I have spoken to my cousin again and she says she doesn't even think what happened could be considered a slip mating...he litterally penetrated her for for all of 2 seconds,i honestly couldnt give her my oppinion as i havent a clue about slip matings


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> Secondly..no reasonable stud owner would expect stud fee without a tie being achieved...at least until...if...pregnancy is confirmed.


Why? Bitches can and frequently do get pregnant from slip matings - there are some dogs that very rarely tie but are producing some very nice and successful progeny.

If the dog isn't proven then of course, you wouldn't dream of asking for a fee - but I don't think it is at all unreasonable to expect a fee for a slip mating (and of course a return 24 to 48 hours later for a further attempt).

The bitch my boy had before this one, we had a couple of slip matings - in truth - there was every early indication was she was pregnant up to 5 weeks - but we will never know for certain.

I was very fortunate this time that the bitch owner was an experienced stud handler and this was the bitch's second litter - I have absolutely no doubt that both factors made a significant difference and we had three good ties.



wiley80 said:


> I have spoken to my cousin again and she says she doesn't even think what happened could be considered a slip mating...he litterally penetrated her for for all of 2 seconds,i honestly couldnt give her my oppinion as i havent a clue about slip matings


To be honest - Slip matings can be "fast" - the advice I've had is to literally "hold" the dogs together - sometimes they will tie, other times they won't - but the longer you can keep them together, obviously the better.

Has the stud owner offered a return visit? most bitches would have two trips to the stud


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2012)

well my cousin wanted to try again tomorrow but the stud owner told her not to bother in a not so kind way,as my cousin hasn't paid her today,she has tried to contact them again tonight but they arent answering,not very proffessional in my oppinion


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

wiley80 said:


> well my cousin wanted to try again tomorrow but the stud owner told her not to bother in a not so kind way,as my cousin hasn't paid her today,she has tried to contact them again tonight but they arent answering,not very proffessional in my oppinion


 no - and left her somewhat in limbo - I think the best advice would be to leave it for this season - if the bitch does turn out to be in whelp - then pay the stud fee - if she isn't - find a different stud and owner - and try and find out what the typical protocols are for her breed (as we have learnt on here - there are different practices between breeds)


----------

