# advice on uk law 'pitbull types'



## stevellie (Jan 18, 2015)

Hi, please be patient im new to all of this, i collected a staffordshire bull terrier cross bull mastiff a couple of weeks ago from a family who basically couldnt cope/ give him the time, stimulation, excersize that he needs. Anyway,,, he is a lovely boy, very boisterous and excitable, hes great  im just slightly concerned about how he would sit within the guidelinesof the UK's banned 'type' considering pitbulls are not a recognised breed in this country and that measurements, build and looks etc are all it takes for my beautiful dog to be instantly removed from my care, to me (i am not an expert) he looks to be a large adult staffy (although he is only 10 months), however my neighbour, who has said 'i lived in america i know what im on about' has told me repeatedly that Harvey has pitbull in him and that she will be informing local authoritys about this.
I have read just about everything i can find on characteristics, measurements etc that define a pitbull type in this country can anybody help me with anything i might of overlooked, or if im worrying for no reason, or if they believe her to be right and if she does make a report what if anything can i do to prove otherwise. 
Thanks in advance


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

First of all, remove your location from your profile. 

Work on obedience, sitting for praise, not jumping or barking at people etc.

IF they do report, and if you do get a visit tell them your circumstances, what type of dog it is and that the dog is entirely safe and ask for it to be put on the exemption register.
This will mean it's neutered, leashed, microchipped/tattooed and muzzled in public but will be allowed to live out its life with you.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

This group dangerousdogsact.co.uk | Welcome to DDA Watch - Supporting Fair & Effective Dog Laws are full of useful info and if you have FB they have a page on there which is fab. I'm sure they'd be happy to advise if you e-mailed/messaged them


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> First of all, remove your location from your profile.
> 
> Work on obedience, sitting for praise, not jumping or barking at people etc.
> 
> ...


This is great advice - I would also expand on this - try to get as many of those things done as you can before the courts even have to suggest it, this should work well in your favour by showing you are responsible if worse comes to worse.

Get your dog chipped and neutered if he is not already and work hard on manners, perhaps muzzle train so that if the worst does happen your dog won't be frightened of having the muzzle put on.

Hopefully it will all come to nothing, but it's best to show how responsible you are seeing as you have somebody threatening to report.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Yes look at DDA Watch's info, and you can even call their freephone numbers if you're worried. 

If the police do come over DO NOT SIGN YOUR DOG OVER. They can still seize him, but if you sign him over he's as good as dead. 

Neuter, vaccinate, chip and train your dog. If he's got a good temperament and is friendly, it's likely he'll pass the exemption process (if it comes to that).

Unfortunately he only needs to fit a set of measurements and looks to be classed as type, we can't really say over the internet, and wouldn't want to either.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Sparkle22 said:


> First of all, remove your location from your profile.
> 
> Work on obedience, sitting for praise, not jumping or barking at people etc.
> 
> ...


I'll add insured to that , i believe it's around £20 for liability insurance or free with dog trust membership.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> IF they do report, and if you do get a visit tell them your circumstances, what type of dog it is and that the dog is entirely safe and ask for it to be put on the exemption register.
> This will mean it's neutered, leashed, microchipped/tattooed and muzzled in public but will be allowed to live out its life with you.


Although the first part of your post was good advice I had to touch on this.

It is not as easy as just asking for your dog to be put on the register...Your dog is seized, put in secret kennels for months on end whilst they "assess" the dog...now if you are lucky your dog will not be classed as a pit and he passes his behaviour assessment and you go to court as the named owner, then you get your dog back after the necessary microchip, tattoo and neuter is done.

If you are unlucky your dog is labeled a pitt, fails his assessment and then loses his life :nonod:

All I can advise for the OP is to make sure your dog does not cause any issues and to contact Trevor Cooper or DDA Watch so that you know exactly where you stand with the law and as already said DO NOT SIGN YOUR DOG OVER TO ANYONE, infact do not sign anything.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

what a horrible neighbour.

I love the pitbulls and all the bull breeds...lovely dogs. good luck


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Although the first part of your post was good advice I had to touch on this.
> 
> It is not as easy as just asking for your dog to be put on the register...Your dog is seized, put in secret kennels for months on end whilst they "assess" the dog...now if you are lucky your dog will not be classed as a pit and he passes his behaviour assessment and you go to court as the named owner, then you get your dog back after the necessary microchip, tattoo and neuter is done.
> 
> ...


I know they have to go into kennels and be accessed, I understood though that if they classed the dog as illegal but it passed the temperament assessment then they are usually given a place on the exemption register after the owner goes to court and agrees to muzzling, tattoo etc?

Without being taken for assessment surely the government would have no option but to put it down so the op must try to get it exempted, if anyone turns up.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> I know they have to go into kennels and be accessed, I understood though that if they classed the dog as illegal but it passed the temperament assessment then they are usually given a place on the exemption register after the owner goes to court and agrees to muzzling, tattoo etc?
> 
> Without being taken for assessment surely the government would have no option but to put it down so the op must try to get it exempted, if anyone turns up.


Unless they were going to seize the dog because they agreed that the dog "could" be a pitt type (meaning I had no choice but to hand the dog over) I would not be offering up my dog to put them through months of stress with unknown people in an unknown location in the "hope" that my dog passes the assessment.

Hundreds of good dogs have lost their lives because the process broke them, why offer your dog up for that?

Getting your dog put on the exempt register is not an easy or nice process.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Getting your dog put on the exempt register is not an easy or nice process.


Lets not con ourselves here. Police host â€˜dangerousâ€™ dog surgeries - Lancashire Constabulary Note, it's a "surgery", not an "amnesty". When pushed the police admitted they would seize dogs which match the really "strict pit bull standard".



> So far this year Lancashire Police have seized 144 dogs, of which 113 were banned breeds. 23 of the dogs assessed as being a banned breed dog have been kept by their owners after a court agreed a contingent destruction order. This means the dog has to be neutered, tattooed, micro-chipped, insured and be muzzled and in control of someone over 16 when in public. Six owners have also been prosecuted under Sec 3 of the Dangerous Dog Act.


This isn't at the surgeries (more on them next) but only 23 out of 113 managed to keep their dogs. Okay many "owners" may simply not want to bother but hardly a comforting statistic to getting your dog on a register.

Interestingly enough, from what I can see from a freedom of information request, the surgeries across the 3 locations attracted only 3 people with 3 dogs. 2 at Blackburn, 1 at Preston. None of the dogs were judged to be dangerous breeds. Then again, it would hardly be great to have a 33%+ seizure rate as a headline. This doesn't mean these dogs couldn't be picked up at a later date and said to be of type.

Edit: If it were easy to get an excemption, why didn't the police get one for one of their own? Police forced to put down their own sniffer dog because it was an illegal breed - Telegraph


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## stevellie (Jan 18, 2015)

Thankyou all for your replies, he is vaccinated, microchipped, insured, and very friendly... maybe boisterous was the wrong word for me to use?? I mean he is just overly friendly with people, he didnt have even the most basic of training before he came to us but he is doing really well with his basic commands. My neighbour doesnt have any actual concerns (noise, attitude etc) she just saw him and decided she didmt like the way he looked, the only issue we have is he has never previously seen other dogs so when out on our walks he does lunge and growl and bark at every single dog we see, because of this he is muxzled on every walk, where i live hardly anybody keeps their dogs on leads and me yelling (from a distance) 'please get your dog, hes in training, he is getting scared' doesnt work. Other than this which were working on hes great.
i did worry that there were no real reasons for suggestions of pit types other than size, build and appearance, i would never want him back in a situation where he is locked up (again) i will do anything to stop that from happening. 
Thankyou again for all the links, advice and info, its appreciated. Havent quite worked out how to thank individual posters etc just yet, but thanks everyone


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

stevellie said:


> View attachment 151779
> Hi, please be patient im new to all of this, i collected a staffordshire bull terrier cross bull mastiff a couple of weeks ago from a family who basically couldnt cope/ give him the time, stimulation, excersize that he needs. Anyway,,, he is a lovely boy, very boisterous and excitable, hes great  im just slightly concerned about how he would sit within the guidelinesof the UK's banned 'type' considering pitbulls are not a recognised breed in this country and that measurements, build and looks etc are all it takes for my beautiful dog to be instantly removed from my care, to me (i am not an expert) he looks to be a large adult staffy (although he is only 10 months), however my neighbour, who has said 'i lived in america i know what im on about' has told me repeatedly that Harvey has pitbull in him and that she will be informing local authoritys about this.
> I have read just about everything i can find on characteristics, measurements etc that define a pitbull type in this country can anybody help me with anything i might of overlooked, or if im worrying for no reason, or if they believe her to be right and if she does make a report what if anything can i do to prove otherwise.
> Thanks in advance


i have been on one of the ID courses

first impression from your thumbnail picture is not dimensions of a pit bill type

but thats just first impression from one small picture


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## Bellaboo1 (Aug 10, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> what a horrible neighbour.
> 
> I love the pitbulls and all the bull breeds...lovely dogs. good luck


I agree re the neighbour. Poor dog hasnt done anything and she's threatening to report him. Deed not breed. I think its wrong if the dog hasn't done anything


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## MyAnimals (Aug 14, 2014)

stevellie said:


> Thankyou all for your replies, he is vaccinated, microchipped, insured, and very friendly... maybe boisterous was the wrong word for me to use?? I mean he is just overly friendly with people, he didnt have even the most basic of training before he came to us but he is doing really well with his basic commands. My neighbour doesnt have any actual concerns (noise, attitude etc) she just saw him and decided she didmt like the way he looked, the only issue we have is he has never previously seen other dogs so when out on our walks he does lunge and growl and bark at every single dog we see, because of this he is muxzled on every walk, where i live hardly anybody keeps their dogs on leads and me yelling (from a distance) 'please get your dog, hes in training, he is getting scared' doesnt work. Other than this which were working on hes great.
> i did worry that there were no real reasons for suggestions of pit types other than size, build and appearance, i would never want him back in a situation where he is locked up (again) i will do anything to stop that from happening.
> Thankyou again for all the links, advice and info, its appreciated. Havent quite worked out how to thank individual posters etc just yet, but thanks everyone


No advice to add on top of what has already been said, but sounds like you're doing everything the correct and responsible way, he's very lucky to have ended up with you as an owner. Just continue as you are and hopefully your neighbour will see that your dog is no danger and in good hands.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

See if you can sign up to a local KC Good Citizen Award obedience scheme maybe? It's a good way to train to a reasonable level of obedience and strengthen the bond with your new dog. You work towards a standard to gain a bronze/silver/gold award (I found it helped to have a "target" to work towards), but also, should anything come of your neighbours comments, you could have a doggy character reference from the trainer if necessary. 

A behaviourist would be a good idea to help address his fear issues with other dogs. My dog reacts in a similar way but given the fact he's probably about the same size as your dogs head, most people just laugh at him(!). A dog the size (and unfortunately breed) of yours is more likely to get a bad reaction and possibly complaint from a member of the public. 

Just another thought I've had, not sure if anyone would know the answer - with the popularity of DNA testing to identify the origins of cross breed dogs, what standing would this have in a pit bull vs staffy cross argument?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> i have been on one of the ID courses
> 
> first impression from your thumbnail picture is not dimensions of a pit bill type
> 
> but thats just first impression from one small picture


That's only your opinion tho..(it is mine too by the way). Only a DLO can legally decide if a dog is of type or not, and as there have been pedigree staff's (with KC papers) seized us, saying "Nope that's no pit" means naff all because if the warden decides that he is a banned breed then nothing will stop them taking the dog...Look at Lennox, he was about as pit as my backside, yet he was still held for over 700 days and still killed at the end of it :nonod:


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Little P said:


> Just another thought I've had, not sure if anyone would know the answer - with the popularity of DNA testing to identify the origins of cross breed dogs, what standing would this have in a pit bull vs staffy cross argument?


DNA means nothing, especially as it really isn't reliable enough 

KC papers mean nothing either....even toothless dogs have been seized


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> That's only your opinion tho..(it is mine too by the way). Only a DLO can legally decide if a dog is of type or not, and as there have been pedigree staff's (with KC papers) seized us, saying "Nope that's no pit" means naff all because if the warden decides that he is a banned breed then nothing will stop them taking the dog...Look at Lennox, he was about as pit as my backside, yet he was still held for over 700 days and still killed at the end of it :nonod:


Not to mention that his litter mate was deemed not of type............


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> That's only your opinion tho..(it is mine too by the way). Only a DLO can legally decide if a dog is of type or not, and as there have been pedigree staff's (with KC papers) seized us, saying "Nope that's no pit" means naff all because if the warden decides that he is a banned breed then nothing will stop them taking the dog...Look at Lennox, he was about as pit as my backside, yet he was still held for over 700 days and still killed at the end of it :nonod:


of course

however, if you have been on the identification course run by the DLO's at battersea dogs home, you can tell from pictures, and then from real life.
the way they structure the course is to teach the measurements and dimensions that would qualify a pit bull type in order that you can identify a staffie/staffie x.
tbh, straight away, i see several features/dimensions, measurements in the picture that identify a staffie/staffie x.
but obviously better pictures are better, as is real life

thus, even from a DLO's POV, they would walk past the vast majority of staffies and staffie x's and not bat an eyelid, and would think the same from pictures.

the complications regarding 'opinion' and interpretation is when the picture of dog or dog itself shows some or all of the featured/measurements/dimensions.

this picture shows the furrowed brow and the round eyes which are stipulated as contrary to type features. type is elliptical eyes and narrow un-forrowed forehead
also, and this is slightly harder to determine on this particular picture, the head does not appear to have the following features:
does the top of the head to the stop (possibly misremembered phraseology there) equal the measurement from the stop to the end of the muzzle. doesnt seem to
do the front legs equal the measurement of the back legs? front look shorter
and do both sets of legs equal the measurement of the body, so its all square? doesnt appear to?

so at the moment he just looks like a bog standard staffie x to me
but absolutely, more pictures, real life, and referring to DDA watch and deednotbreed is highly advised

in america, i do believe this is not how they identify a pitbull, as they are an identiy recognised breed over there. so in america he may have a different designation? whom knows? or the neighbour may just be talking crap?

i went round battersea with the DLO and he would give us pop questions - is that a type? id say yes, hed say, of course not, its an am bull, and so on so forth
i dont know about those cases you referred to

and of course, all those other measures people have advised are also spot on


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

If your neighbour hasn't yet reported you, could you stop the problem before it starts by winning her over? It's easy to say "horrible neighbour", and maybe she is one of those that just like to stir trouble (plenty of them around). But maybe she has first hand experience from when she was in America? Relation/neighbour's child attacked or something? If your dog is ok with people (and only if you're sure about this), invite her over for a cuppa and a chat. Otherwise take round a home baked cake to her place. What are her concerns, and what would make her happier about having your dog as a neighbour? Might be easier to head off trouble before it happens by recognising her concern as genuine, and asking what you can do to reassure her. Admit to her that they're not everyone's type, and can look scary at first glance, and tell her you don't want to be a bad neighbour so what can you do to ease her mind? Yes it's sucking up a bit, but far less hassle than once the authorities get involved. Good luck with it all.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Sorry to those who have already seen this but where would this dog leave you on BSL measurements? Its obviously type because its a Pit Cross 

http://www.moderndoggroup.com/blog/...ttie-and-doxie-would-look-like-well-barkpost/


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Not to mention that his litter mate was deemed not of type............


Yup..5 week old pups seized with 3 of the litter being killed (after they have been in kennels until they pass a year old because you can't possibly tell before then) and the other 2 walking free...and people still back this law :nonod:



Tails and Trails said:


> of course
> 
> however, if you have been on the identification course run by the DLO's at battersea dogs home, you can tell from pictures, and then from real life.
> the way they structure the course is to teach the measurements and dimensions that would qualify a pit bull type in order that you can identify a staffie/staffie x.
> ...


Again that is all your opinion based on a course...ALL DLO's will have their own opinion on what passes as a pit and what doesn't...I don't think this dog is a banned type going by the picture, YOU don't think he is a pit going by the picture..that does not mean that ALL DLO's will not think this dog is a pit...As I have said FULL staffies have been seized (not hearing about them does not mean they don't happen)..Lennox was an AM bull cross Lab, with ZERO reasons to be reported but that didn't save him...

P.S I KNOW what a pit looks like first hand as I have actually seen them...most DLO's wouldn't know one if it jumped up and bite them on the nose


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> of course
> 
> however, if you have been on the identification course run by the DLO's at battersea dogs home, you can tell from pictures, and then from real life.
> the way they structure the course is to teach the measurements and dimensions that would qualify a pit bull type in order that you can identify a staffie/staffie x.
> ...


I was under the impression that there was a list of measurements/ characteristics in oder to determine "type" and if a dog is a certain percentage of them then thats it "type" it is?

If thats the case how can anyone, DLO's included, make any sort of assessment from a picture? You cant tell how tall it is, how muscular, yadda yadda Even with eyes on a dog it still relies on a measuring tape too does it not?

Folk have SEEN their dogs parents, maybe even own them, know 110% their dog is Rottie X am bull or Staff X Lab but that does not stop them becoming "type" sadly!!


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> DNA means nothing, especially as it really isn't reliable enough
> 
> KC papers mean nothing either....even toothless dogs have been seized


Thought as much!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> of course
> 
> however, if you have been on the identification course run by the DLO's at battersea dogs home, you can tell from pictures, and then from real life.
> the way they structure the course is to teach the measurements and dimensions that would qualify a pit bull type in order that you can identify a staffie/staffie x.
> tbh, straight away, i see several features/dimensions, measurements in the picture that identify a staffie/staffie x.


Thing is, when your foundation is sand, which the idea of measurements are to begin with, anything solid on top of it you build will fail.



> i went round battersea with the DLO and he would give us pop questions - is that a type? id say yes, hed say, of course not, its an am bull, and so on so forth


Which at the same time doesn't discount any dog being identified as type. It's not the negatives of identifying a different breed that count. Legally any dog breed can be of type.



> in america, i do believe this is not how they identify a pitbull, as they are an identiy recognised breed over there.


Wrong, "pit bull" is a generic term used to describe the American pit bull terriers, American staffordshire terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier and generic pit bull "types".

If you can get hold of it, Beyond the Myth: A Film About Pit Bulls and Breed Discrimination (2010) - IMDb is worth watching as much of it also applies to the UK

Trailer:
[youtube_browser]1HE6act57Aw[/youtube_browser]​
Even in the trailer, you'll see the same sort of identifying features list.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Also as rehoming a pit is illegal wouldnt one be hard pushed to spot a Pit at battersea, unless they were waiting to be assessed?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I was thinking about this. I thought would I actually want to own a staffie or staffie cross just in case it got taken. Then I thought that there are probably tens of thousands of them and a tiny amount are seized each year. That then got me to thinking that if the law has to stand why is it not policed better. If tens of thousands of people walked around with a gun or a knife they would all be arrested not just a handful of them.
How can people know what is right or wrong if an obscure law is sometimes upheld and most times ignored.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I was thinking about this. I thought would I actually want to own a staffie or staffie cross just in case it got taken. Then I thought that there are probably tens of thousands of them and a tiny amount are seized each year. That then got me to thinking that if the law has to stand why is it not policed better. If tens of thousands of people walked around with a gun or a knife they would all be arrested not just a handful of them.
> How can people know what is right or wrong if an obscure law is sometimes upheld and most times ignored.


Lots of folk do walk around with a gun or a knife and are never arrested.... especially if that weapon is never used. However a gun or a knife is just that - there are no odd grey shady areas, a knife is not classified on a set of measurements/ what some "expert" says, a knife is a knife is a knife- plain for all to see.
As should a dangerous dog should be based on what it has actually done, of any breed, not because it fits a set of criteria plucked from lord knows where.
Many people have been put off Bull breeds in general because of this law, I can see why.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> Lots of folk do walk around with a gun or a knife and are never arrested.... especially if that weapon is never used. However a gun or a knife is just that - there are no odd grey shady areas, a knife is not classified on a set of measurements/ what some "expert" says, a knife is a knife is a knife- plain for all to see.
> As should a dangerous dog should be based on what it has actually done, of any breed, not because it fits a set of criteria plucked from lord knows where.
> Many people have been put off Bull breeds in general because of this law, I can see why.


Actually I think that an illegal knife does have certain criteria and is not based on what it has actually done. I know someone who was arrested because he went out in the evening in his work clothes and had left his stanley knife in his pocket.

The fact is that if it is illegal and is in full view, whether dog, gun or knife, it should be an offence. That is the only way anyone will know where they stand and maybe then the law would get repealed as there would be nowhere to keep thousands of family pets in kennels.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

No I didnt mean based on what the knife had done but a knife is a knife is a knife Stanley or other wise - a chap carrying a knife is a chap carrying a knife - I suspect a builder with a stanley knife in his pocket was not charged. Type is not Type is not Type because it is based of flawed logic - proof being Lennox litter mates who were deemed not of type whilst he was PTS. IMO the only way to police this law is by what a dog has done.

I agree if it is illegal it should be policed BUT as said above there are WAY WAY too many grey areas with this "type" nonsense - its illegal to own a Pit but not a staff X lab - however they would be lumped in the same. The law would not get repealed- just many many family pets would lose their lives.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Actually I think that an illegal knife does have certain criteria and is not based on what it has actually done. I know someone who was arrested because he went out in the evening in his work clothes and had left his stanley knife in his pocket.
> 
> The fact is that if it is illegal and is in full view, whether dog, gun or knife, it should be an offence. That is the only way anyone will know where they stand and maybe then the law would get repealed as there would be nowhere to keep thousands of family pets in kennels.


Considering many, many dogs can fit into the criteria for a banned type that would mean euth'ing a HUGE amount of dogs.

The reason illegal types are still being seized over a decade after it started is because it all boils down to a bunch of tape measurements which many breeds or their crosses can fall into :sosp:

This is the list of traits they run from..it could fit thousands of dogs..pit of not.

I'll resize that when I get back from my walk.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> No I didnt mean based on what the knife had done but a knife is a knife is a knife Stanley or other wise - a chap carrying a knife is a chap carrying a knife - I suspect a builder with a stanley knife in his pocket was not charged. Type is not Type is not Type because it is based of flawed logic - proof being Lennox litter mates who were deemed not of type whilst he was PTS. IMO the only way to police this law is by what a dog has done.
> 
> I agree if it is illegal it should be policed BUT as said above there are WAY WAY too many grey areas with this "type" nonsense - its illegal to own a Pit but not a staff X lab - however they would be lumped in the same. The law would not get repealed- just many many family pets would lose their lives.


Actually he was charged and I think he spent a night in a cell as well. As always it is down to personalities and interpretation of the law by the police officer.

I am not agreeing with the DDA, I think it is totally ridiculous and out of order. But while it is law it should be policed and maybe if the whole population knew about it instead of just a few dog people then it might well be repealed. It worked with the poll tax - law abiding citizens stood up to be counted and it was dumped.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

StormyThai said:


> Yup..5 week old pups seized with 3 of the litter being killed (after they have been in kennels until they pass a year old because you can't possibly tell before then) and the other 2 walking free...and people still back this law :nonod:
> 
> Again that is all your opinion based on a course...ALL DLO's will have their own opinion on what passes as a pit and what doesn't...I don't think this dog is a banned type going by the picture, YOU don't think he is a pit going by the picture..that does not mean that ALL DLO's will not think this dog is a pit...As I have said FULL staffies have been seized (not hearing about them does not mean they don't happen)..Lennox was an AM bull cross Lab, with ZERO reasons to be reported but that didn't save him...
> 
> P.S I KNOW what a pit looks like first hand as I have actually seen them...most DLO's wouldn't know one if it jumped up and bite them on the nose


This was very much the opinion of someone who had done the full DLO course, I think it's about two weeks long off the top of my head, once told me. Not only did they feel the training was fundamentally inadequate, but the interpretations of the standard varied massively between individual DLOs.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I am not agreeing with the DDA, I think it is totally ridiculous and out of order. But while it is law it should be policed


I agree.. thing is, this law is impossible to police fairly.



> and maybe if the whole population knew about it instead of just a few dog people then it might well be repealed.


Unfortunately not the case. The general public supports the idea. Let's face it, Breed Specific Legislation (BSL) is brought in as a public relations exercise to pretend to the public at large that politicians are doing something against dangerous dogs. Frequently a knee jerk reaction to an attack. Media then focusses on only this type of breed and that is that. Everyone knows only specific types of dogs are dangerous.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> I was under the impression that there was a list of measurements/ characteristics in oder to determine "type" and if a dog is a certain percentage of them then thats it "type" it is?
> 
> *you are correct. i just listed some of these measurements and characteristics in my post you just quoted*
> 
> ...


indeed, staffie x lab is a common mix that gets labelled as 'type'.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Also as rehoming a pit is illegal wouldnt one be hard pushed to spot a Pit at battersea, unless they were waiting to be assessed?


rehoming a pit type is illegal

on the contrary, it is 'easy', if thats the right word, to spot a pit type at b'sea.
and yes, they are waiting to be assessed
they have full time members of staff and connected DLO's that do it daily

not saying its good, just clarifying


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> Y (not hearing about them does not mean they don't happen)..Lennox was an AM bull cross Lab, with ZERO reasons to be reported but that didn't save him...
> 
> )


no, all i said was i hadnt heard of them.

id be grateful for specific references


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Even dogs with known parents have been seized. There was a breeder handed in their staffies because one of the puppies had been seized and they thought it would prove they weren't pits. At least one of the parents is now on the register :001_unsure:. 

Litters are put down because they can't be rehomed if they are proven to be type and few people if any could responsibly keep a whole litter, let alone on the requirements of the register. 

The gp supports it because the daily fail and co are doing their best to panic everyone that all dogs are evil but bull breeds in particular will snap and eat children at any second. It's a ridiculous law and hasn't done anything but the government must at least pretend to be doing something


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Thing is, when your foundation is sand, which the idea of measurements are to begin with, anything solid on top of it you build will fail.
> 
> *im not saying its my system or that i like it. its all ****** really. im just passing on information*
> 
> ...


*masses of dogs and breeds could be discounted as type in a bat of an eye. not too sure what you mean here?
*


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> *masses of dogs and breeds could be discounted as type in a bat of an eye. not too sure what you mean here?
> *


As far as the law goes the emphasis is on looking for features that a dog is type, not proving a dog isn't of type. It's a subtle but important difference. So it doesn't matter if it can be recognised as an Am Bull. If it matches the checklist sufficiently it's of type.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> As far as the law goes the emphasis is on looking for features that a dog is type, not proving a dog isn't of type. It's a subtle but important difference. So it doesn't matter if it can be recognised as an Am Bull. If it matches the checklist sufficiently it's of type.


i know

im not too sure i have said anything different?

also there has to be a basis to suspect and then to investigate, to begin with

you would just measure and assess any old bog standard looking staffie x


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> no, all i said was i hadnt heard of them.
> 
> id be grateful for specific references


Google Lennox the whole story is there.

News | A Puppy's Life. Kacey was the only puppy to survive, her brothers and sisters were deemed type.

Gizmo was a pedigree staff, his papers meant nothing.

Go check out DDA Watch fb page, the plight of many dogs and their owners are there.

It is impossible to hold up a law that has so many variables.

Here is a list:


When first viewing the dog it should appear square from the side, and the height from the top of his shoulders should be the same distance as from the front of his shoulder to the rear point of his hip.
It's height to weight ratio should be in proportion. 
It's coat should be short and bristled.
It's head should appear to be wedge shaped when viewing from the side and top but rounded when viewed from the front. The head should be 2/3 width of shoulders and 25% wider at cheeks than at the base of the skull.
The distance from the back of the head to between the eyes should be about equal to the distance from between the eyes to the tip of the nose.
The dog should have a good depth from the top of the head to bottom of jaw and a straight box like muzzle.
It's eyes should be small and deep set, triangular when viewed from the side and elliptical from the front.
It's shoulders should be wider than the ribcage at the eighth rib.
It's elbows should be flat with it's front legs parrellel to it's spine.
It's forelegs should be heavy and solid and nearly twice the thickness of the hindlegs just below the hock.
The ribcage should be deep and spring straight out from the spine, it should be elliptical in cross section tapering at the bottom, not barrel chested.
It should have a tail that hangs out like an old pump handle to around the hock.
It should have a broad hip that allows good attachment of muscles in the hindquarters and hind leg.
It's knee joint should be in the upper third of the dogs rear leg, and the bones below that should appear light, fine and springy.

Leaves a lot open for personal opinion, and many, many breeds and their mixes fit right into it.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> im not too sure i have said anything different?


You've emphasised the points were you say it's not a pitbull. Whilst would be my natural emphasis as well, it simply not how the legal system works.



> also there has to be a basis to suspect and then to investigate, to begin with


The only basis to suspect required is someone thinks it may be "of type".

You don't need to use facebook for DDAWatch
In Memory | dedication to those we won't ever forget.

I realise T&T you are not supporting BSL but you do seem to support the idea of type being flawlessly recognisable. This leads to dogs, often beloved pets being killed. This whole idea is flawed. It's based on opinion which could be different according to what side of the bed someone got out of one morning.

We need measures for dangerous dogs and to hold owners responsible for their dogs. We do not need breed specific legislation.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> You've emphasised the points were you say it's not a pitbull. Whilst would be my natural emphasis as well, it simply not how the legal system works.
> 
> The only basis to suspect required is someone thinks it may be "of type".
> 
> ...


No, the legal system works by looking as staffie type breeds and then thinking hang on a minute, he looks a bit 'pit'. I think we are gonna have to assess/investigate it further. Measure the dog etc etc to see if it fits the legal definition of type

However no one is gonna look at any random breed of dog or any random staffie or staffie x for that matter and automatically jump to that process.
Someone will have some sort of basis - rightly or wrongly to have the thought it wouldnt be plucked out of thin air on no basis whatsoever

Of course it's not flawless. Its a load of ****** actually

Having said all that the limited photo on this thread passes as a good first impression of simply not getting labelled as type, for the criteria I mentioned earlier


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> No, the legal system works by looking as staffie type breeds and then thinking hang on a minute, he looks a bit 'pit'. I think we are gonna have to assess/investigate it further. Measure the dog etc etc to see if it fits the legal definition of type
> 
> However no one is gonna look at any random breed of dog or any random staffie or staffie x for that matter and automatically jump to that process.
> Someone will have some sort of basis - rightly or wrongly to have the thought it wouldnt be plucked out of thin air on no basis whatsoever
> ...


But that is exactly what happens. "Looks a bit pit" means seized dog, months and months of kennelling and separation from family, a whole load if expense for the owner, exemption (being deemed not a danger to the public) but still leashed, muzzled etc...... it is just a random staff x...... there are a whole load of stories to say exactly this.......


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> But that is exactly what happens. "Looks a bit pit" means seized dog, months and months of kennelling and separation from family, a whole load if expense for the owner, exemption (being deemed not a danger to the public) but still leashed, muzzled etc...... it is just a random staff x...... there are a whole load of stories to say exactly this.......


Precisely

Crap, isn't it


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

I've just googled the Lennox story and am sat crying now after watching the tribute vid on this link Lennox, dog condemned as pitbull, is put to death in Belfast - World News 

I hope all works out well for the OP. This law sucks!


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> Google Lennox the whole story is there.
> 
> News | A Puppy's Life. Kacey was the only puppy to survive, her brothers and sisters were deemed type.
> 
> ...


im on the DDA facebook page

how do you find those cases you mentioned?


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## Tazer (Jan 1, 2015)

Blitz said:


> Actually he was charged and I think he spent a night in a cell as well. As always it is down to personalities and interpretation of the law by the police officer.
> 
> I am not agreeing with the DDA, I think it is totally ridiculous and out of order. But while it is law it should be policed and maybe if the whole population knew about it instead of just a few dog people then it might well be repealed. It worked with the poll tax - law abiding citizens stood up to be counted and it was dumped.


When it comes to knives, it shouldn't be a matter of personality and interpretation, a blade longer than 3 inches is illegal to carry in public, that's the law. Unless that's changed recently?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Tazer said:


> When it comes to knives, it shouldn't be a matter of personality and interpretation, a blade longer than 3 inches is illegal to carry in public, that's the law. Unless that's changed recently?


or a retracting knife like a stanley knife. Everything is down to personality - some policeman will have some give and take, others will not.

With simple things like motoring offences - I have got away with loads over the years from nice understanding policeman. They are quite black and white. Going through a red light is illegal. Having a missing light is illegal. Having a car with bits falling off it is illegal. Towing a trailer that has no brakes and is too heavy for the towing vehicle is illegal. I have smiled sweetly at policeman over the years for all these offences and never had a problem.
Not that I make a habit of it obviously, but over decades things do happen.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Tails and Trails said:


> rehoming a pit type is illegal
> 
> on the contrary, it is 'easy', if thats the right word, to spot a pit type at b'sea.
> and yes, they are waiting to be assessed
> ...


Not 100% correct an exempted dog can be transferred legally to a different keeper. There's been a few cases where DDA watch have assisted doing this.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Snoringbear said:


> Not 100% correct an exempted dog can be transferred legally to a different keeper. There's been a few cases where DDA watch have assisted doing this.


yes, sorry, you are correct

i meant in general in regards the position of rescue centres


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## Tazer (Jan 1, 2015)

Blitz said:


> or a retracting knife like a stanley knife. Everything is down to personality - some policeman will have some give and take, others will not.
> 
> With simple things like motoring offences - I have got away with loads over the years from nice understanding policeman. They are quite black and white. Going through a red light is illegal. Having a missing light is illegal. Having a car with bits falling off it is illegal. Towing a trailer that has no brakes and is too heavy for the towing vehicle is illegal. I have smiled sweetly at policeman over the years for all these offences and never had a problem.
> Not that I make a habit of it obviously, but over decades things do happen.[/QUOTE
> Sorry, didn't explain very well, I was trying to say that the law isn't ambiguous when it comes to knives, it's either 3 inches, less or more, it's not like section 1 type, where they *think* a dog might be type and seize them for assessment.


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