# Hunt terriermen caught with live fox in bag!



## noushka05

More scum with their 'wildlife management'! http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...live-fox-bag/story-26909000-detail/story.html

Paltry fine & poor terriers handed back! - where is the deterrent?


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## rona

Headline grabbing again I see. There is no proof to say that these men were linked to a hunt.

Even the paper uses that get out clause...."allegedly"


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## noushka05

Oh yes there is  http://www.huntsabs.org.uk/index.ph...se-the-last-convictions-under-the-hunting-act

Still a top hunt apologist though Rona - Bonner would be proud.


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## rona

Oh so just because the Sabs say so it's true? Not exactly proof is it?
I think they also need to know that Harriers were not and are not after fox and therefore have no need of terrier men

The paper couldn't name a hunt even though this hunt denied connection with the men 

Who or what is Bonner?

Even the dreaded RSPCA couldn't link them to a hunt
http://news.rspca.org.uk/2015/07/13...hree-hunters-prosecuted-for-illegal-activity/


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## noushka05

rona said:


> Oh so just because the Sabs say so it's true? Not exactly proof is it?
> I think they also need to know that Harriers were not and are not after fox and therefore have no need of terrier men
> 
> The paper couldn't name a hunt even though this hunt denied connection with the men
> 
> Who or what is Bonner?
> 
> Even the dreaded RSPCA couldn't link them to a hunt
> http://news.rspca.org.uk/2015/07/13/the-current-hunting-act-works-says-rspca-after-three-hunters-prosecuted-for-illegal-activity/


Of course you would have us believe that fox hunts & terriermen have absolutely no connection whatsoever lol Terriermen do not supply hunts with foxes, they do not dig out foxes that have gone to ground for hunts. Completely separate entities aren't they?

Yes the baddies in all this are the sabs, the monitors, LACS, HSA, IFAW -those defending animals & exposing abuse, hey Rona?


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## rona

Hahaha

No just the sabs. They must make things really difficult for the monitors

None of the others seem to purposely make things up.


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## noushka05

Calm down Rona, its not that funny

Yet according to monitors the only ones making it difficult for them are the hunt scum If this is how deceitful hunts treat monitors http://www.realca.co.uk/bloodsports/countryside-alliance/alliance-call-to-sabotage-anti-hunt-videos , just imagine the duplicitous lies they spout about sabs 

Wouldn't you just love people to believe they make things up lol People aren't stupid, thanks to those organisations they are well aware 'wildlife management' is a disgusting lie. They are now fully aware hunts are 'breeding' & encouraging foxes by feeding them so they can be hunted down for fun. They know all aspects of fox hunting is revolting & barbaric.


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## rona

You keep quoting that organization that I've already said does not represent the majority of true countrymen. I've already told you that they only have 100,000 supporters while the MFHA has 300,000. That makes them just loud mouths as much as the SABs. Can't you find anything more credible than the CA?
Yes, fox hunts did use terrier men and still do legally as a service to land owners and farmers as Judi Hewit demonstrated so wonderfully.
What I said was that Harrier packs *unless *a dual registered pack, have no need of terrier men because they never hunted foxes.
Yes of course the same people will go out with the Harriers as well as the local hounds because it's their way of life. Doesn't mean they are acting as terrier men while out with the Harriers. Being a terrier man is only part of their lives not all of it

PS. You still haven't told me who or what Bonner is?


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## noushka05

rona said:


> You keep quoting that organization that I've already said does not represent the majority of true countrymen. I've already told you that they only have 100,000 supporters while the MFHA has 300,000. That makes them just loud mouths as much as the SABs. Can't you find anything more credible than the CA?
> Yes, fox hunts did use terrier men and still do legally as a service to land owners and farmers as Judi Hewit demonstrated so wonderfully.
> What I said was that Harrier packs *unless *a dual registered pack, have no need of terrier men because they never hunted foxes.
> Yes of course the same people will go out with the Harriers as well as the local hounds because it's their way of life. Doesn't mean they are acting as terrier men while out with the Harriers. Being a terrier man is only part of their lives not all of it
> 
> PS. You still haven't told me who or what Bonner is?


So you're saying the cruel MFHA represent the majority of 'true countrymen'?:Wideyed Is there any difference between their mentality & that of the CA? I argue neither of these two insidious organisations represent the majority of 'true countrymen' - & the Burns report along with numerous polls support my views! I'm a true country(wo)man & they most certainly do not represent me! Do they represent you? (its ok, there really is no need to answer that  )

_"did _use terrier men" "Still do legally" . You just cant help yourself can you Rona.

I'm pretty sure you know who Timbo is lol


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## StormyThai

Since when have terrier men been linked with dog thefts?


It seems that at the moment any character that needs assassination gets linked with these mystery dog thefts 

I know, I know...how dare I question the motives of a biased source...damn me and my open mind that doesn't like to swallow everything I'm spoon fed


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## noushka05

StormyThai said:


> Since when have terrier men been linked with dog thefts?
> 
> It seems that at the moment any character that needs assassination gets linked with these mystery dog thefts
> 
> I know, I know...how dare I question the motives of a biased source...damn me and my open mind that doesn't like to swallow everything I'm spoon fed


Terrier men have been convicted of fighting dogs, its well know dog fighters steal dogs. And I notice you don't question the link between terriermen & badger baiting... Because that link is inextricable!


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## StormyThai

noushka05 said:


> Terrier men have been convicted of fighting dogs, its well know dog fighters steal dogs. And I notice you don't question the link between terriermen & badger baiting... Because that link is inextricable!


No, it's a well known myth that fighters steal dogs.

No I did not question the link between badger baiting because...shock horror...I agree that SOME will get involved.

But adding on the irrelevant, unsubstantiated "theft" on the end as usual loses you (and the person that made it up) credibility..

There is enough cruelty in this world without making stuff up


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## rona

noushka05 said:


> So you're saying the cruel MFHA represent the majority of 'true countrymen'?:Wideyed Is there any difference between their mentality & that of the CA? I argue neither of these two insidious organisations represent the majority of 'true countrymen' - & the Burns report along with numerous polls support my views! I'm a true country(wo)man & they most certainly do not represent me! Do they represent you? (its ok, there really is no need to answer that  )
> 
> _"did _use terrier men" "Still do legally" . You just cant help yourself can you Rona.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you know who Timbo is lol


Now you know full well that I did not say the MFHA represented countrymen. I said that the CA didn't.

I agree that neither represents the majority of countrymen.

Neither represents me either. I prefer to say I'm more represented by the Wildlife Trust as they hold more of my ideals than most, though they also have a few ideals I do not agree with. I don't blindly support anyone even if I feel they are for the good.

It's now Timbo!! Who is this?


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## noushka05

StormyThai said:


> No, it's a well known myth that fighters steal dogs.
> 
> No I did not question the link between badger baiting because...shock horror...I agree that SOME will get involved.
> 
> But adding on the irrelevant, unsubstantiated "theft" on the end as usual loses you (and the person that made it up) credibility..
> 
> There is enough cruelty in this world without making stuff up


I don't make stuff up, my own breed is a prime target for baiters! - http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/why-not-to-advertise.152071/#post-2273094

Funny that you seem more 'enraged' at me for pasting those links than you do to the pond life who's 'job' it is to inflict this horrific suffering on animals - whatever that animal might be!


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## noushka05

rona said:


> Now you know full well that I did not say the MFHA represented countrymen. I said that the CA didn't.
> 
> I agree that neither represents the majority of countrymen.
> 
> Neither represents me either. I prefer to say I'm more represented by the Wildlife Trust as they hold more of my ideals than most, though they also have a few ideals I do not agree with. I don't blindly support anyone even if I feel they are for the good.
> 
> It's now Timbo!! Who is this?


Oh good, perhaps you'll stop regurgitating pro hunt/shoot propaganda now then lol

Never mind Rona ...


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## rona

noushka05 said:


> Oh good, perhaps you'll stop regurgitating pro hunt/shoot propaganda now then lol
> 
> Never mind Rona ...


Funny thing is I don't, I just try to counter and balance your hysterical rantings and propaganda


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## rona

Just looked up Tim Bonner as you were obviously not going to tell me who he is. 

What a dick head


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## noushka05

rona said:


> Funny thing is I don't, I just try to counter and balance your hysterical rantings and propaganda


Hahaa oh so that's why you tried to undermine a wealth of peer reviewed evidence on hen harrier persecution by driven grouse shoots :Hilarious


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## rona

noushka05 said:


> Hahaa oh so that's why you tried to undermine a wealth of peer reviewed evidence on hen harrier persecution by driven grouse shoots :Hilarious


What you mean this where I did a lot of searching and came up with several different studies?
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/shocking-statisitcs-re-hen-harriers.370413/

I have to look for mainly unbiased studies as I know little about Grouse shooting or Hen Harriers.

I must admit that I found the search both interesting and enlightening. Maybe you should try it sometime rather than just quote the spoon fed variety


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## StormyThai

noushka05 said:


> I don't make stuff up, my own breed is a prime target for baiters! - http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/why-not-to-advertise.152071/#post-2273094
> 
> Funny that you seem more 'enraged' at me for pasting those links than you do to the pond life who's 'job' it is to inflict this horrific suffering on animals - whatever that animal might be!


You are making stuff up right there...you assume that you know what I am enraged about by one comment...you assume that I am some sort of hunt sympathiser because I do not fawn at your every word and pick you up on half truths or blatant lies..

Oh and a 3 year old thread does not prove that terrier men steal dogs...there is no more proof that dog fighters steal dogs (you know, because there isn't enough given away for them to play with..or ohhh I don't know maybe they breed what they need) than there is that terrier men steal dogs.. Now if you have *actual *proof then I would be prepared to listen..until then -shrugs-

Maybe if people kept to the facts rather than ad libbing to make their case sound stronger then people like myself may actually stop finding fault...again I will add, there is enough cruelty in this world without people making stuff up!


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## noushka05

rona said:


> What you mean this where I did a lot of searching and came up with several different studies?
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/shocking-statisitcs-re-hen-harriers.370413/
> 
> I have to look for mainly unbiased studies as I know little about Grouse shooting of Hen Harriers.
> 
> I must admit that I found the search both interesting and enlightening. Maybe you should try it sometime rather than just quote the spoon fed variety


That, plus a zillion other threads lol Rona, games up! the GWCT admitted it IS grouse moor persecution driving Hen harriers to extinction in England! Andrew Gilruth admitted it to me himself, so all that cherry picking you did to fit your confirmation bias just makes you look silly now. Arguments over. Grouse moors are the cause of the hen harriers demise, just as they are other raptor species that use to been seen on those moors.



StormyThai said:


> You are making stuff up right there...you assume that you know what I am enraged about by one comment...you assume that I am some sort of hunt sympathiser because I do not fawn at your every word and pick you up on half truths or blatant lies..
> 
> Oh and a 3 year old thread does not prove that terrier men steal dogs...there is no more proof that dog fighters steal dogs (you know, because there isn't enough given away for them to play with..or ohhh I don't know maybe they breed what they need) than there is that terrier men steal dogs.. Now if you have *actual *proof then I would be prepared to listen..until then -shrugs-
> 
> Maybe if people kept to the facts rather than ad libbing to make their case sound stronger then people like myself may actually stop finding fault...again I will add, there is enough cruelty in this world without people making stuff up!


No I assume it because you act more enraged by things I post than by people who actually commit horrific cruelty to animals.

Heres some facts for you then. ALL terriermen send their dogs down holes after foxes, each time they do they potentially risk them coming face to face with a badger.

This is Pudding - an ex 'badger baiter', she attended badger marches to stop the cull of her old adversary. Tell me anyone who is capable of putting their own dog through this isn't capable of anything? I know you have argued otherwise but ALL terriermen, imo , are scum of the earth, dogs are mere tools to them, nothing more. They are ALL cruel & people involved in fox hunting cannot wash their hands of the cruelty.

Pudding recently passed away. Here is a letter from her owner. http://blogs.rspca.org.uk/insights/...rom-the-hands-of-badger-baiters/#.VbTRBtnbJMs

*Letter to a badger baiter,*

My dog died the other day and my world came crashing down. I thought maybe I should tell you as she was your dog once - many years ago - but I doubt you'd shed a tear.

My life won't be the same without her; she was the sunshine that greeted me every morning and the smile that sent me to sleep every night. But to you she was just a tool - a means of proving your manliness and making an easy quid or too. I wonder if you've ever thought about her since good people took her from you.

Her new life was full of love and happiness. Despite the suffering she endured at your hands, she never held a grudge. She was a joyful, affectionate and trusting dog who greeted everyone she met like a long lost friend. But her body told the story her cheerful demeanour hid so well.

Her disfigured face, damaged eye and distended nipples spoke of painful fights and overbreeding - all for your pleasure and profit. Yet I doubt you ever really knew the dog who served you so faithfully, and that's your loss. She had a heart bigger than her head and an enthusiasm for life that inspired everyone who knew her.










People often said she was lucky to find such a good home, but in reality I was the lucky one. Her resilience and unrelenting optimism taught me to be a better person. It was a privilege to share my life with her, and for that I thank you. If you hadn't been so arrogant, foolish or just plain dumb, your crimes might have gone undetected and she would never have come into my life.

I'm sure she'd want me to forgive you for the suffering you caused her and so many other animals; she had no room in her heart for malice. I know your cruel acts were born of ignorance, stupidity and a deep sense of inadequacy, so perhaps I should forgive you - but I can't. I'm not as good a person as my dog was. No one ever will be.

*RIP Pudding xx*


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## rona

Honestly Noush  

Have you seen the picture of the baby deer by it's mother that's supposed to have been hunted............pan out and you actually see it's a road accident. Pictures are so easy to doctor.and lies so easy to spout

Also, as you lied directly too me about something I can no longer believe anything you say...........

On ignore again, just can't be bothered with this rubbish


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## noushka05

rona said:


> Honestly Noush
> 
> Have you seen the picture of the baby deer by it's mother that's supposed to have been hunted............pan out and you actually see it's a road accident. Pictures are so easy to doctor.and lies so easy to spout
> 
> Also, as you lied directly too me about something I can no longer believe anything you say...........
> 
> On ignore again, just can't be bothered with this rubbish


No I haven't seen that picture - ive seen lots strong evidence & peer reviewed research though.

Oh so I guess putting me on ignore means you wont divulge what I've supposedly lied to you about? - how very convenient & how convenient you can now dismiss Gilruths admission as more of my 'lies' . 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/...d-of-pointing-fingers.369955/#post-1063786450

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/...d-of-pointing-fingers.369955/#post-1063807702

(wonder if I'm on pretend ignore again or will it be for real this time.)


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## StormyThai

Again, badger baiting has zero to do with dog thefts.
Again, my point was that no one needs to make stuff up to show the cruelty in the word...the facts speak for themselves.

Interesting how again you assume to know how I act when you know zero about me, or what I stand for...

If you wouldn't mind, it would be lovely if you stopped adding emotions to my posts, as you are clearly not very good at it


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## noushka05

'You've already said you don't believe all terriermen are cruel, I on the other hand think 'anyone' who sends their dog down a hole after a fox is nothing short of sadistic. So you & I are never going agree on this issue are we.


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## StormyThai

noushka05 said:


> 'You've already said you don't believe all terriermen are cruel, I on the other hand think 'anyone' who sends their dog down a hole after a fox is nothing short of sadistic. So you & I are never going agree on this issue are we.


That is a strawman argument if ever I heard one...

Saying that we will never agree on something (well done on twisting that statement to suit yourself BTW ) does not excuse blatant lies and made up 'facts'...

Unless you can prove with facts that terrier men steal dogs? If you can't agree that making up stuff without facts doesn't detract from someone's credibility (which was the point of my posts as you well know) then I'm not sure what else to say

Some people just can't see the wood for the trees -shakes head sadly-


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## Guest

StormyThai said:


> Some people just can't see the wood for the trees


Some people are more invested in being "right" and/or "righteous" than in the actual issue at hand. They would rather alienate all potential allies and be on their own little island of righteousness than work to find common ground and effect real, sustainable change.

And yes, it is sad.


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## noushka05

StormyThai said:


> That is a strawman argument if ever I heard one...
> 
> Saying that we will never agree on something (well done on twisting that statement to suit yourself BTW ) does not excuse blatant lies and made up 'facts'...
> 
> Unless you can prove with facts that terrier men steal dogs? If you can't agree that making up stuff without facts doesn't detract from someone's credibility (which was the point of my posts as you well know) then I'm not sure what else to say
> 
> Some people just can't see the wood for the trees -shakes head sadly-


 ALL Terriermen ARE animal abusers. Anyone who tries to deny that is the liar 



ouesi said:


> Some people are more invested in being "right" and/or "righteous" than in the actual issue at hand. They would rather alienate all potential allies and be on their own little island of righteousness than work to find common ground and effect real, sustainable change.
> 
> And yes, it is sad.


Alienate potential allies? People are either for or against blood sports, that's down to them not me. The evidence is there for all to see, terriermen supply hunts with foxes, terriermen abuse animals, hunts still use terriermen. Whatever you think about me doesn't alter those FACTS.


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## StormyThai

noushka05 said:


> ALL Terriermen ARE animal abusers. Anyone who tries to deny that is the liar
> 
> Alienate potential allies? People are either for or against blood sports, that's down to them not me. The evidence is there for all to see, terriermen supply hunts with foxes, terriermen abuse animals, hunts still use terriermen. Whatever you think about me doesn't alter those FACTS.


Again, none of that has been questioned in this thread.
I do like that you keep sidestepping the fact you help spread unsubstantiated 'facts'


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## rona

The terrier was used by a guy that bred dogs for fighting and went out with his mates for what seems the soul purpose to inflict pain. Still no link to a hunt..................................just one sadistic barstward and his equally barbaric mates.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-thug-used-dog-hunt-kill-foxes-badgers.html


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## noushka05

StormyThai said:


> Again, none of that has been questioned in this thread.
> I do like that you keep sidestepping the fact you help spread unsubstantiated 'facts'


No not on this particular thread hey 

Dog fighting is an underground 'sport'. Proving anything isn't exactly easy. I believe some stolen dogs end up as bait - you don't. Fair enough. If you are right & its just a myth, it does not exonerate the rest of the sadistic cruelty terriermen are renowned for.

Heres a 'proven' link for you though - animal abusers are linked to psychopathic disorders.



rona said:


> The terrier was used by a guy that bred dogs for fighting and went out with his mates for what seems the soul purpose to inflict pain. Still no link to a hunt..................................just one sadistic barstward and his equally barbaric mates.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167830/Caught-camera-The-sickening-photograph-grinning-thug-used-dog-hunt-kill-foxes-badgers.html


ALL terriermen, without exception, are sadistic barstewards - & they are STILL used by hunts.


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## StormyThai

mmmm that's it..you keep hold of that bone Noush....Lets forget about silly things like proof before add libbing lies and mis truths...

I give up...carry on dear...but don't expect eveyone to fawn at your words when you continue to spread propaganda....

You keep harping on about irrelevant facts (you may also want to remind yourself what I *actually* said, instead of grasping onto your made up version in your head...)

Here are some facts about me for you......

I do not, and never have agreed with sport hunting (so that is fox hunting, trophy hunting, fishing when you just throw the fish back...so basically anything that isn't for the pot and killed humanely)
I do not, and never will condone what terrier men do (have done for the law abiding citizens)
I do not condone of factory farming (I eat very little meat these days anyway, but what I do eat is sourced locally and ethically)

In fact lets just sum it up with I *do not* condone animal cruelty of any sort for any reason...

BUT I also can't stand lies or mis truths being spread...If you can point out where there is proof that terrier men steal dogs (because that is what I questioned not baiting or fighting) then I will gladly accept I was wrong (because I tend to put my hands up when faced with proof unlike some)...

I know proof won't be shown and another rant will ensue veiled with sly insults...but there ya go...

People asking question over questionable 'facts' does not equate to me defending anyone BTW just in case you wish to throw that at me again


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## noushka05

StormyThai said:


> mmmm that's it..you keep hold of that bone Noush....Lets forget about silly things like proof before add libbing lies and mis truths...
> 
> I give up...carry on dear...but don't expect eveyone to fawn at your words when you continue to spread propaganda....
> 
> You keep harping on about irrelevant facts (you may also want to remind yourself what I *actually* said, instead of grasping onto your made up version in your head...)
> 
> Here are some facts about me for you......
> 
> I do not, and never have agreed with sport hunting (so that is fox hunting, trophy hunting, fishing when you just throw the fish back...so basically anything that isn't for the pot and killed humanely)
> I do not, and never will condone what terrier men do (have done for the law abiding citizens)
> I do not condone of factory farming (I eat very little meat these days anyway, but what I do eat is sourced locally and ethically)
> 
> In fact lets just sum it up with I *do not* condone animal cruelty of any sort for any reason...
> 
> BUT I also can't stand lies or mis truths being spread...If you can point out where there is proof that terrier men steal dogs (because that is what I questioned not baiting or fighting) then I will gladly accept I was wrong (because I tend to put my hands up when faced with proof unlike some)...
> 
> I know proof won't be shown and another rant will ensue veiled with sly insults...but there ya go...
> 
> People asking question over questionable 'facts' does not equate to me defending anyone BTW just in case you wish to throw that at me again


http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/...xplicit-content.395538/page-9#post-1064113677

Just in case you forgot what you said about terriermen -


"_I doubt very much that sending dogs underground is in their job description as it is illegal now unless certain demands are met - again I am not saying that they are all squeaky clean because that would be a lie...*just as saying all terriermen are cruel ******** is a lie*_*." *

I reiterate - ALL terriermen ARE cruel ******** ALL terriermen shove their dogs down holes after their victims, even if they arent involved in anything else only 'foxing' that still makes them sick & twisted. Not a lie, thats my opinion & you will never change it. http://www.diggingout.org/ .


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## StormyThai

Yeah taking the last part of my statement to fit your needs really gets boring...you would do well to remember that your opinion does not equate to facts...well done at completely missing the point of my post yet again 

Shoving dogs down holes was NOT the point of my post and you well know that, but if it makes you feel better by adding labels to people you know zero about, and being part of the reason some people switch off to animal rights people that have a blast...

I can't be bothered to keep going over the same thing over and over again for you to just cherry pick what you want to get enraged about...my posts are clear, it's not my fault that you consistently miss the point, that is yours!


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## noushka05

Its you that's coming across as enraged lol

Your posts are as clear as mud. So, perhaps you could clarify then, how someone who hunts foxes with terriers (ya know, a 'terrierman') could be anything but a cruel ******* ?


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## StormyThai

Stop changing the argument to suit your needs 

And stop taking things out of context to try to turn...I'll remind you (thanks for finding the actual thread so that I could remind myself of the reasons for that comment)...
That comment was because of this 


> Which is, ALL terriermen treat animals inhumanely. Its in their job description


That still doesn't take away the fact that you continue to spread 'half truths' as fact 

I'm done, I feel there is no need for me to comment on this as it has all been said ad infinitum...


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## noushka05

StormyThai said:


> Stop changing the argument to suit your needs
> 
> And stop taking things out of context to try to turn...I'll remind you (thanks for finding the actual thread so that I could remind myself of the reasons for that comment)...
> That comment was because of this
> 
> That still doesn't take away the fact that you continue to spread 'half truths' as fact
> 
> I'm done, I feel there is no need for me to comment on this as it has all been said ad infinitum...


No I didn't think I'd get any sort of clarification from you 

Tally ho


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## rona

StormyThai said:


> if it makes you feel better by adding labels to people you know zero about, and being part of the reason some people switch off to animal rights people that have a blast...


How to put people off supporting animal rights, eh?  

I think it's sad that these are the people at the forefront and the most visual. Would the majority people want to even meet these extremists, would they feel safe in the atmosphere of hatred? 
There are thousands who work tirelessly for animals without needing to insult others or tell you how wonderful they are.


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## noushka05

Funny but in my mind the people who kill animals for 'sport' are the extremists not those who try to defend animals from them. And I've never yet heard an ARA tell anyone how 'wonderful they are'. lol


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## Guest

noushka05 said:


> People are either for or against blood sports, that's down to them not me.


Nobody on this thread is pro blood sports of any kind and that is an intentionally hurtful accusation to make. As Rona rightly says, it's very off-putting and makes people not want to associate with folks who are that extreme in their views that they would make such accusations simply based on asking valid questions.

And Rona and I rarely see eye to eye on anything. The fact that we are both seeing the same thing is pretty telling if you ask me.

I am not familiar with terrier men or what they do, but I am familiar with dogfighting and dog men, and I do know that it is largely an internet myth that dogfighters steal dogs for bait (or any other reason). I'm not making an absolute statement BTW, I'm sure there are a few cases, but not to the extent that the internet mythology would have you believe.

So to me it's it's perfectly valid to ask if what proof there is that terriermen steal dogs. Asking that doesn't make one a hunt apologist or pro bloodsports. It's just a question.


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## noushka05

rona said:


> How to put people off supporting animal rights, eh?
> 
> I think it's sad that these are the people at the forefront and the most visual. Would the majority people want to even meet these extremists, would they feel safe in the atmosphere of hatred?
> There are thousands who work tirelessly for animals without needing to insult others or tell you how wonderful they are.


Oh & one more thing!

As if you would ever support animal rights anyway, how disingenuous can you get. Many of my threads come from a conservation angle NOT from an AR angle - hen harrier persecution by grouse moors for example. Yet we can guarantee you will bob up on these threads with your desperate attempts to divert attention from those we KNOW are illegally killing these beautiful birds!

[



ouesi said:


> Nobody on this thread is pro blood sports of any kind and that is an intentionally hurtful accusation to make. As Rona rightly says, it's very off-putting and makes people not want to associate with folks who are that extreme in their views that they would make such accusations simply based on asking valid questions.
> 
> And Rona and I rarely see eye to eye on anything. The fact that we are both seeing the same thing is pretty telling if you ask me.
> 
> I am not familiar with terrier men or what they do, but I am familiar with dogfighting and dog men, and I do know that it is largely an internet myth that dogfighters steal dogs for bait (or any other reason). I'm not making an absolute statement BTW, I'm sure there are a few cases, but not to the extent that the internet mythology would have you believe.
> 
> So to me it's it's perfectly valid to ask if what proof there is that terriermen steal dogs. Asking that doesn't make one a hunt apologist or pro bloodsports. It's just a question.


Rona use to go beating? Is that not being pro bloodsport then? 

I've found you & Rona are very much alike when it comes to blood sports lol. I remember you using spurious arguments & anti wolf propaganda on one of my wolf hunting threads. The fact that you were more offended by name calling than you were by the horrific cruelty about to be unleashed on the wolves says a lot about your values imo.


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## Cleo38

rona said:


> *How to put people off supporting animal rights, eh?*
> 
> I think it's sad that these are the people at the forefront and the most visual. Would the majority people want to even meet these extremists, would they feel safe in the atmosphere of hatred?
> There are thousands who work tirelessly for animals without needing to insult others or tell you how wonderful they are.


I agree. In my 20's (many years ago!!) I was heavily involved in the animal rights movement but the constant evangelical rantings of some, the 'you're either with us or against us' attitude as well as escalating violence put me off.

As I had started questioning some of the tactics & some of the information that was being distributed (in the group) I was then seen as 'supporting the enemy' ...... am so glad I didn't give toss & left. Nothing in life is black & white, people can have different beliefs but be on the same side .... so sad that some can't see this


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## Guest

noushka05 said:


> I remember you using spurious arguments & anti wolf propaganda on one of my wolf hunting threads.


Me anti-wolf propaganda?! That's a laugh!
What I do promote is the use of LGD as they are the most predator friendly (and effective) wolf protection out there, and I am very vocal about protecting wolves while also protecting livestock if that's what you mean. But that I am anti-wolf is just about the most ridiculous thing I've read from you yet.

I'll just echo what @Cleo38 said. I too was involved in the AR groups back in my day, and this is just the tip of the iceberg that explains why I got out. That was a good 20, 25 years ago, and I see nothing has changed. I think I'll just continue to do my part to protect animals of ALL species without getting sucked in to the crazy


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## rona

Cleo38 said:


> I agree. In my 20's (many years ago!!) I was heavily involved in the animal rights movement but the constant evangelical rantings of some, the 'you're either with us or against us' attitude as well as escalating violence put me off.
> 
> As I had started questioning some of the tactics & some of the information that was being distributed (in the group) I was then seen as 'supporting the enemy' ...... am so glad I didn't give toss & left. Nothing in life is black & white, people can have different beliefs but be on the same side .... so sad that some can't see this


It's why I've done my own little bit in my own little way.


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## noushka05

ouesi said:


> Me anti-wolf propaganda?! That's a laugh!
> What I do promote is the use of LGD as they are the most predator friendly (and effective) wolf protection out there, and I am very vocal about protecting wolves while also protecting livestock if that's what you mean. But that I am anti-wolf is just about the most ridiculous thing I've read from you yet.
> 
> I'll just echo what @Cleo38 said. I too was involved in the AR groups back in my day, and this is just the tip of the iceberg that explains why I got out. That was a good 20, 25 years ago, and I see nothing has changed. I think I'll just continue to do my part to protect animals of ALL species without getting sucked in to the crazy


I said you used anti wolf propaganda, which you did. The part I've highlighted. I've heard this same fake sentimentalism from the anti wolf brigade time & time again. In fact reading this whole thread back & its perhaps the most ridiculous argument i have ever had anywhere on the net - ever ... http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dogs-trained-to-attack-kill-wolves-in-wisconsin.293094/page-2


_*"For that matter, have you ever watched a pack of wolves take down an elk calf? It's not pretty, it's not quick and painless, and it's very traumatic to both the calf that is often eaten before it's dead, and the mother left with bulging udders painfully calling to her lost child.

Where is your "save the Elk" petition?*

I'm not saying wolves shouldn't hunt elk BTW, I'm simply pointing out that man is not the only cruel one here, and the issue is usually a lot less black and white than we like to make it out to be.

Let me ask you this. Would you be willing to take some of those wolves in Wisconsin that you're trying to save, and have them introduced to the British Isles? There certainly used to be numerous wolves in England, why not re-introduce them? "_
 And with just a quick google to find this on an anti wolf website (on Save the Elk.com as it happens  ) - http://saveelk.com/ This poor animal had it's baby ripped out and was left to die a slow, agonizing death, and it did so in this mans arms



rona said:


> It's why I've done my own little bit in my own little way.


Is that what you call beating & gamekeeping - doing your own little bit in your own little way? :/


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## Guest

LOL 2 years ago I was arguing things aren’t as black and white as you try to make them out to be! Same story, different thread 

So because I have empathy for the animal hunted by the wolf, and I express that, it equals to anti-wolf propaganda? 
I watched a documentary on orca last night and was cringing during their hunt, they had caught a baby sea lion and were tossing it among themselves while it was still alive. I found it incredibly distressing. 

But here is the kicker. I am capable of being very upset by the actions of an animal, yet still understand and respect those actions. I was very upset watching that sea lion pup (as I have also been upset watching wolves, coyote, and my own dogs hunt successfully), and I ALSO respect the predator and admire the animal for who he is - a predator who kills, and enjoys it. If they didn’t enjoy it, they would perish. 

IOW, I can (and others obviously can) comprehend two opposing sides and respect them both for their own merits.
So really, I don’t even understand what you’re trying to say by dragging up a 2 year old post of mine (that is basically saying the same thing I’m arguing here). These things just are NOT black and white, I can love and respect wolves yet still find their kills horrid. I’m not going to stop them from killing, but I completely understand why a rancher would be horrified at one of their kills to the point of wanting to retaliate. I don’t condone it, but I understand it. 

It’s funny, all I said what that asking for proof of terriermen stealing dogs was a valid question. That has now turned in to dragging up an ancient thread in what appears to be an attempt to discredit me, yet it just reinforces what I and others on this thread are saying. 

So again, genuine question, is there proof that terriermen steal dogs? And if there is can you supply it please?


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## Cleo38

noushka05 said:


> I said you used anti wolf propaganda, which you did. The part I've highlighted. I've heard this same fake sentimentalism from the anti wolf brigade time & time again. In fact reading this whole thread back & its perhaps the most ridiculous argument i have ever had anywhere on the net - ever ... http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dogs-trained-to-attack-kill-wolves-in-wisconsin.293094/page-2
> 
> 
> _*"For that matter, have you ever watched a pack of wolves take down an elk calf? It's not pretty, it's not quick and painless, and it's very traumatic to both the calf that is often eaten before it's dead, and the mother left with bulging udders painfully calling to her lost child.
> 
> Where is your "save the Elk" petition?*
> 
> I'm not saying wolves shouldn't hunt elk BTW, I'm simply pointing out that man is not the only cruel one here, and the issue is usually a lot less black and white than we like to make it out to be.
> 
> Let me ask you this. Would you be willing to take some of those wolves in Wisconsin that you're trying to save, and have them introduced to the British Isles? There certainly used to be numerous wolves in England, why not re-introduce them? "_
> And with just a quick google to find this on an anti wolf website (on Save the Elk.com as it happens  ) - http://saveelk.com/ This poor animal had it's baby ripped out and was left to die a slow, agonizing death, and it did so in this mans arms
> 
> Is that what you call beating & gamekeeping - doing your own little bit in your own little way? :/


Can you not see that you have taken part of Ouesi's comment & completely misunderstood it?! Seriously .... it is laughable that quotes are being twisted & old threads dragged up to prove what point? That we are all blood sport enthuisiasts if we don't completely agree with every single viewpoint ......


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## Guest

Cleo38 said:


> Can you not see that you have taken part of Ouesi's comment & completely misunderstood it?! Seriously .... it is laughable that quotes are being twisted & old threads dragged up to prove what point? That we are all blood sport enthuisiasts if we don't completely agree with every single viewpoint ......


It is laughable, but unfortunately, it also ends up being a distraction away from the real issues - protecting and respecting animals and their place on this planet. ALL animals - pet and livestock animals too


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## noushka05

ouesi said:


> LOL 2 years ago I was arguing things aren't as black and white as you try to make them out to be! Same story, different thread
> 
> So because I have empathy for the animal hunted by the wolf, and I express that, it equals to anti-wolf propaganda?
> I watched a documentary on orca last night and was cringing during their hunt, they had caught a baby sea lion and were tossing it among themselves while it was still alive. I found it incredibly distressing.
> 
> But here is the kicker. I am capable of being very upset by the actions of an animal, yet still understand and respect those actions. I was very upset watching that sea lion pup (as I have also been upset watching wolves, coyote, and my own dogs hunt successfully), and I ALSO respect the predator and admire the animal for who he is - a predator who kills, and enjoys it. If they didn't enjoy it, they would perish.
> 
> IOW, I can (and others obviously can) comprehend two opposing sides and respect them both for their own merits.
> So really, I don't even understand what you're trying to say by dragging up a 2 year old post of mine (that is basically saying the same thing I'm arguing here). These things just are NOT black and white, I can love and respect wolves yet still find their kills horrid. I'm not going to stop them from killing, but I completely understand why a rancher would be horrified at one of their kills to the point of wanting to retaliate. I don't condone it, but I understand it.
> 
> It's funny, all I said what that asking for proof of terriermen stealing dogs was a valid question. That has now turned in to dragging up an ancient thread in what appears to be an attempt to discredit me, yet it just reinforces what I and others on this thread are saying.
> 
> So again, genuine question, is there proof that terriermen steal dogs? And if there is can you supply it please?


Yeah ok, is that why you asked me wheres my save the elk petition? Something I've been asked on a number of occasions by apologists for hunting. You only jumped on the thread because you took offence at my name calling. The fact that this upset you more than wolves about to be hunted down with dogs speaks volumes. Distraction & deflection are common tactics on hunting threads, & that's why I brought this thread up.

That thread was nothing to do with ranchers, they were already allowed to kill wolves threatening their livestock. The wolf wars in your country is about powerful wolf hating lobby groups & corruption in high places hell bent on exterminating this species in some of the most barbaric of ways imaginable. So in effect you were sympathising with people who wanted to hunt down wolves with dogs(in this particular instance) out of pure spite & malice & blood lust, not ranchers who have lost livestock. Wolves account for only 1% of losses by the way - plus they also keep coyote in check which are responsible for more losses.

I already said I don't have any proof. I said I believe dogs are stolen for fighting, if I am proven to be wrong I hold my hands up. That still does not exonerate these evil ******** for all their KNOWN brutality to animals.



Cleo38 said:


> Can you not see that you have taken part of Ouesi's comment & completely misunderstood it?! Seriously .... it is laughable that quotes are being twisted & old threads dragged up to prove what point? That we are all blood sport enthuisiasts if we don't completely agree with every single viewpoint ......


Have you read the whole thread in all its context?



ouesi said:


> It is laughable, but unfortunately, it also ends up being a distraction away from the real issues - p*rotecting and respecting animals and their place on this* *planet.* ALL animals - pet and livestock animals too


Oh so have you changed your mind from this [email protected]?

_Were so self-important. Everybodys going to save something now. Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails. And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. Save the planet, we dont even know how to take care of ourselves yet. Im tired of this ****. Im tired of f-ing Earth Day. Im tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is that there arent enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for Volvos. Besides, environmentalists dont give a **** about the planet. Not in the abstract they dont. You know what theyre interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. Theyre worried that some day in the future they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesnt impress me.

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles  hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages  And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isnt going anywhere. WE are!

Were going away. Pack your ****, folks. Were going away. And we wont leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam  The planetll be here and well be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planetll shake us off like a bad case of fleas.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after were gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, cause thats what it does. Its a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed. And if its true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesnt share our prejudice toward plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didnt know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, Why are we here?

Plastic *******._

I think you'll find most animal lovers, conservationists, environmentalists, ARA's already do respect & try to protect animals & their place on this earth. And that's exactly what those fighting to save wolves are doing, they certainly aren't going to stop fighting because wolves would eventually go extinct anyway!


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## StormyThai

noushka05 said:


> Distraction & deflection are common tactics on hunting threads, & that's why I brought this thread up.
> 
> !


PAH, the irony is strong in this one :Smuggrin


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## Guest

Can someone clarify for me what this thread is about because I'm more than a little confused at this point?
Is this thread about fox hunts? Dog theft? Wolves? Or trying to prove forum members are or are not hunt apologists or wolf haters? I'm really not sure what to respond to or how to respond at this point...

@noushka05 the last part you quoted from me are not my words, they are George Carlin's and I used them to illustrate that a lot of this "save the ___" stuff is not so much about actually saving that animal, but more about human arrogance and self-importance. A way to big oneself up by feeling like you're doing something important. I clarified that I DO feel strongly about the importance of respecting the environment and mother nature and all her creatures, but I don't think we do any of those animals any favors by being divisive, elitist, name calling, exclusionary, and lacking in compassion for our fellow humans. In fact IME those are the sorts of attitudes that do more damage than good in the long run.

So the question becomes, is this about saving foxes (and wolves) or is it about being the most righteous one in the room?

That was my point then, it is still my point today, and you're still missing it.



noushka05 said:


> You only jumped on the thread because you took offence at my name calling. The fact that this upset you more than wolves about to be hunted down with dogs speaks volumes.


You don't know me, you don't know my motivations, you don't know what upsets me. Please have the courtesy to not make sweeping assumptions about me and what I feel, I leave that to my therapist and she's much better at it than you, plus I pay her. 
Seriously though Noushka, I have seen you do this repeatedly on this forum, and numerous members have asked you to not presume to know what is in their hearts. You get it wrong, always assuming the worst about people, and you alienate them, and make yourself lose all sorts of credibility.


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## rona

I love shooting.

Over the last 2 weeks I've shot fox

IMG_2869 by Jenny Clifford, on Flickr

Buzzard
IMG_1531 by Jenny Clifford, on Flickr

A pigeon
IMG_1393 by Jenny Clifford, on Flickr

Any even deer with fawn
IMG_1564 by Jenny Clifford, on Flickr

  

Sorry, I'm being facetious


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## noushka05

ouesi said:


> Can someone clarify for me what this thread is about because I'm more than a little confused at this point?
> Is this thread about fox hunts? Dog theft? Wolves? Or trying to prove forum members are or are not hunt apologists or wolf haters? I'm really not sure what to respond to or how to respond at this point...
> 
> @noushka05 the last part you quoted from me are not my words, they are George Carlin's and I used them to illustrate that a lot of this "save the ___" stuff is not so much about actually saving that animal, but more about human arrogance and self-importance. A way to big oneself up by feeling like you're doing something important. I clarified that I DO feel strongly about the importance of respecting the environment and mother nature and all her creatures, but I don't think we do any of those animals any favors by being divisive, elitist, name calling, exclusionary, and lacking in compassion for our fellow humans. In fact IME those are the sorts of attitudes that do more damage than good in the long run.
> 
> So the question becomes, is this about saving foxes (and wolves) or is it about being the most righteous one in the room?
> 
> That was my point then, it is still my point today, and you're still missing it.
> 
> You don't know me, you don't know my motivations, you don't know what upsets me. Please have the courtesy to not make sweeping assumptions about me and what I feel, I leave that to my therapist and she's much better at it than you, plus I pay her.
> Seriously though Noushka, I have seen you do this repeatedly on this forum, and numerous members have asked you to not presume to know what is in their hearts. You get it wrong, always assuming the worst about people, and you alienate them, and make yourself lose all sorts of credibility.


Oh don't be confused, hunting threads get taken off track all the time - look no further than the 'hunting down wolves with dogs' thread for example! You did a fine job distracting from the topic in hand on there.

No you don't know me either , but Its clear my name calling upset you more than the horrific cruelty my thread was about - so we certainly know 'that' upsets you.

So its only out of self importance? human arrogance? to big oneself up, people are desperate to save nature? Jeezus. How ludicrous can you get. No, it couldn't possibly be because some of us feel sheer palpable horror at what some humans are capable of!

Caring for something is an unselfish act, there is nothing arrogant in caring about the natural world. I feel for every single animal as an individual. Why don't you ask the people commenting on the 'Cecil the lion thread' if they are feeling self righteous? Many are only expressing themselves the way I do! They are upset at the lions killing & repulsed by Cecils killer. No doubt you'll be filled with compassion for him now hes being hounded for what hes done though . Using your twisted logic - why should we be bothered about Cecil anyway? his species would only have gone extinct at some point!. The fact that you cant understand people could actually want to save nature because they care says more about you than it does about me/them. And again this shows how very much alike you & Rona are, for years she has expressed her utter contempt for the conservation movement, whilst at the same time defending & excusing the very ones who are destroying our precious wildlife -& for sport!.

.

You quoted Carlin, you own words support his views-

_*I just think it's a bit over self-important to take full credit for something that has been happening in cycles on this planet for millennia. The earth is 4.5 billion years old. Life has existed on this planet for about 3.5 billion years, humans have existed for about 200 thousand years. We're a minuscule dot in the timeline of life on earth. The number of life forms that have lived, evolved, and died out before our time and during our time without any influence from us is astounding*. *So yeah, to think we have a significant role in destroying or saving life forms on this planet is a bit arrogant in my view.* *I just don't think that in the greater scheme of things humans - or elephants and rhinos and wolves - are *that* important*_*.

*
What a cop out, corporate interests, sport hunters must love people like you. Have you seen how capitalists, climate change deniers have embraced that Carlin video on social media? 
And just fyi, we are on the brink of the sixth mass extinction - 1 in 6 species will disappear if we don't act now - & guess what? HUMANS ARE responsible - is that not 'significant' enough for you?. So if we do allow that to happen we WILL be able to take 'full credit' for it! - I think its downright bloody shameful to give up without a fight because we're all going to be dead one day anyway - especially when its OUR fault. _Apathy & indifference - the worst of all evils._

You think people should be sympathetic towards the hunters & reason with them. Don't you think NGOs & individuals haven't already tried?. The science has proved wolves are a vital for a healthy ecosystem, do you think the haters care?. You cant reason with these morons, their hatred for wolves is irrational & rabid. So conservation minded people will fight to the bitter end to save the wolves even though the species may have eventually gone extinct anyway! You can feel compassion for wildlife killers, I cant. I don't have a single ounce of compassion for the people who hunt down wolves and other species for sport. In fact I wish with all my 'arrogant' heart all cruel knuckle draggers would hit an evolutionary cul de sac & die out - & the sooner the better

2 years ago when you asked me where was my save the elk petition, a tactic frequently used by the anti wolf brigade, you obviously didn't realise then the importance of wolves as a keystone species & their presence not only keeps the elk herds healthy but has a positive knock on effect across the whole ecosystem.


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## Guest

Lovely photos @rona


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## rona

ouesi said:


> Lovely photos @rona


Thanks. I just wished I'd had my good camera with me when I saw the fox. He posed for some time and even eat out of the trough before realising that Alfie and I were standing the other side of the gate 

IMG_2871 by Jenny Clifford, on Flickr


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