# OK ready to talk



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

OK I am devastated I think snippet got to Tilly its been about 4 weeks now and she looks more solid this i would normally ignore as she is a bit of a piggy with her food, but she appears to have gone off her food,, LOL not fresh chicken though:blink:

I was warned by many members on here that I had to be really careful and I took on board their advice, I am aware of the one time they where together I literally walked out the room to change the washing over, i came back and Snippets tinkle was out completely  if they didn't tie could she still be with pup.

I don't need berating I am very aware I have put Tilly in a bad position but I need good advice from experienced people.


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

she could well be. you need to go to vets for mismate jab. same thing happened to me about 20 years ago my sable boy mated with my merle girl on her 20th day i'd left the conservatory door open in error and he'd done the deed before i'd hung the duvet on the line.


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

what is a mismate jab,, I am so not ready for this and actually quiet frightened I don't want to lose Tilly

I have to go off to work now. which is a pain so I am not ignoring anyone ok.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

dexter said:


> he'd done the deed before i'd hung the duvet on the line.


lol no surprises, most men blow before the pants hit the ankles


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

piggybaker said:


> what is a mismate jab,, I am so not ready for this and actually quiet frightened I don't want to lose Tilly
> 
> I have to go off to work now. which is a pain so I am not ignoring anyone ok.


It's like a canine after morning pill (well injection in this case) and will stop the pregnancy.

Your best bet would be to ring your vet and discuss it with them.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> and Snippets tinkle was out completely if they didn't tie could she still be with pup.


Sounds like it is highly likely.


----------



## natty01 (Sep 4, 2011)

isnt there also a chance that it could be a false pregnancy ? i think a vet visit is in order to make sure either way .


----------



## gesic (Feb 19, 2009)

Go to vets and have her scanned, if she is pregnant then she can be injected to prevent the prenancy going on.
Then perhaps getting an appointment for neutering might be a good idea?


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

PB are you planning on breeding her?

If not.. Its not too late at 4 weeks to have her done.. It may sound cruel.. But please think of all the out there already....


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

And i am sure 4 weeks is too late for the Mismate as all is formed at 4 weeks..


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> And i am sure 4 weeks is too late for the Mismate as all is formed at 4 weeks..


Alizin can be given up to 45 days after conception.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Alizin can be given up to 45 days after conception.


Nonnie and what happens.. as in do they get absorbed cause they will be quite big or do they have a miscarriage..

Im quite curious.. Cause I personally wouldn't want either..


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> Nonnie and what happens.. as in do they get absorbed cause they will be quite big or do they have a miscarriage..
> 
> Im quite curious.. Cause I personally wouldn't want either..


Im not 100% sure tbh. Ive only seen it used once (and i cant remember if it was Alizin or Delvosteron now) and the owner failed to come back for the follow up injection and ended up with a litter of 10 weimy cross AmBull puppies.

I know if used early enough the bitch absorbs the pups, later i would assume they would abort them.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Im not 100% sure tbh. Ive only seen it used once (and i cant remember if it was Alizin or Delvosteron now) and the owner failed to come back for the follow up injection and ended up with a litter of 10 weimy cross AmBull puppies.
> 
> I know if used early enough the bitch absorbs the pups, later i would assume they would abort them.


Messy .. And blimey that is a weird cross..


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thing is, damned if you do, damned if you don't at this stage. What happens to pups? Do you have the time to devote to raise a litter? What if it goes wrong for the bitch, do you have the finances/time available? Are you going to keep in touch to ensure no-one breeds on. Everyone would like to think so, the sad, but truthful option is the mismate prevents the pups being born, and prevents the headache(s) later on of trying to ensure no-one decides they want a cute litter of pups of their own. There isn't a nice option I'm afraid.

Not aimed at the OP, just general comments really .....


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> PB are you planning on breeding her?
> 
> If not.. Its not too late at 4 weeks to have her done.. It may sound cruel.. But please think of all the out there already....


From PG thread at the end of December when Tilly came in season so no, hopefully PG was not wanting to breed from her, but.... if I came back to find my in season bitch with my entire male dog with his will hanging completely out, I would be very concerned that the deed had been done and wouldn't be waiting and seeing.



> I unfortunately have no one to take him but Tilly is not letting her even come near her at all, even when she is curled up with me on the chair.
> 
> Trust me it won't happen well it can't Tilly is a rescue dog and I WILL NOT allow the same history to repeat itself..





> nnie and what happens.. as in do they get absorbed cause they will be quite big or do they have a miscarriage..
> 
> Im quite curious.. Cause I personally wouldn't want either..


Depends how late - the bones don't calcify until around 6 weeks so unless very late they are likely to be absorbed.

The other alternative is to get her spayed.

Either way, it is likely Piggybaker will need to be fairly firm with the vet that that is what she wants as some are reluctant to do it.

Shame she didn't ask the question after finding them together when she was in season.


----------



## pop pop (Nov 4, 2010)

going off your old posts on the site i would say get her booked in for a spay or the missmate, you posted on the 31st dec that you had found your boy with his bits out meaning your girl can only be 19 days gone if that was the only time they were alone so its not to late for either, also shes a rescue dog which you said in your own words that you got a rescue as you didnt ever want puppies.
Another thing that worried me is you say in one of your posts that you had lost it with your new pup and hit him for weeing on the floor, could you realy cope with 6 puppies weeing and pooing on your floor if you lose your temper with just one?


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

I have to say, I am a tad confused - only yesterday I answered your post on feeding pregnant bitches 

Does that mean you are planning on keeping the pups if your bitch is in whelp? at 18 days, you wouldn't yet know if she was pregnant or not, I would strongly advise getting her to the vets for a mismate - if she is pregnant then it is still very early days and can be dealt with.


----------



## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

It's all down to your personal feelings from here - we had an accidental tie here, and after much soul searching decided the mismate jab wasn't something we were morally and practically comfortable with. Thankfully, an ultra sound proved she wasn't in whelp, despite the fact she had gained weight in her abdomen area.

It's your choice, yes the mating is less than ideal but personally I couldn't accept the notion of ending a life that had already been conceived, but everyone is different.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Grace_Lily said:


> It's your choice, yes the mating is less than ideal but personally I couldn't accept the notion of ending a life that had already been conceived, but everyone is different.


We are talking about dogs, not humans. Frequently, pups from unhealth-tested parents get homed poorly to start with, then shipped from pillar to post by owners that can't handle them, until they often end up in rescue - having their lives extinguished far before their time because no-one wants them once they are no longer a cute little puppy.

You think THAT is better than stopping the pregnancy in it's tracks 

It's all very well saying life should be preserved, but whatever happened to quality of life, and so many of these pups simply do not have any quality of what is often a very shortened life through absolutely no fault of their own  - I know which side of the fence I sit


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Swarthy, I couldn't think how to word it, but you've said exactly what I wanted to put across so well.


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Well seen as this dog is a rescue... Its your responsibility to make sure this bitch does not get the chance to bring new lives in this world..Also surely if she is a rescue you will have signed to say you will neuter.. 

Mismate or have the bitch spayed now.. Think about the dogs and how her having pups could affect her.. 

Its Friday.. Death row day down at the pound..


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm suprised that the OP hasn't heard of the mismate injection seeing as she has been a member here for so long though 

I have no idea of breeding but I have heard of this reading various posts on here


----------



## Quiddelbach (Dec 5, 2011)

Personally, I would spay her now. 

I am not sure there is any reason to use mismate in this instance, just take the lot away and that is the end of it. 

The only moral dilemma I can see is a rescue having an unwanted litter. Maybe I am a harsh old bag though


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Quiddelbach said:


> Personally, I would spay her now.
> 
> I am not sure there is any reason to use mismate in this instance, just take the lot away and that is the end of it.
> 
> The only moral dilemma I can see is a rescue having an unwanted litter. Maybe I am a harsh old bag though


Guess Im harsh too cos I agree


----------



## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

swarthy said:


> We are talking about dogs, not humans. Frequently, pups from unhealth-tested parents get homed poorly to start with, then shipped from pillar to post by owners that can't handle them, until they often end up in rescue - having their lives extinguished far before their time because no-one wants them once they are no longer a cute little puppy.
> 
> You think THAT is better than stopping the pregnancy in it's tracks
> 
> It's all very well saying life should be preserved, but whatever happened to quality of life, and so many of these pups simply do not have any quality of what is often a very shortened life through absolutely no fault of their own  - I know which side of the fence I sit


No, but the human is the one who is making the decision not the dog, and they have to feel comfortable with that.

In terms of how the puppies are homed, with education and awareness from the breeder the new homes can be vetted just as easily as a rescue does. Just because the puppies aren't health tested doesn't automatically mean they will fall into the wrong hands, and then be shunted onto a rescue. It really is an unfair assumption to make.

You see, the stopping pregnancy in its tracks is a difficult debate. Personally, I think it's better to have a chance at life than none at all. I have a severe mental health illness, so should I have been stopped before birth? I hope not, because I'd rather be here than not! Bear in mind we are talking about killing healthy puppies here, not disabled ones.

Who are you to assume the dogs will have a poor quality of life? The proof is in the pudding, and until that's a fact it's an incredibly unfair criticism to make.

The side of the fence I sit on is avoiding unwanted pregnancies in the first place. However, if the worst happens I don't believe in using the mismate jab. It isn't a magic wand and comes with it's own risks; it can deform puppies rather than kill them, so you still have a litter but they are handicapped. There's an increase in the risk of pyometra for the bitch, having almost lost one of our dogs to this that's a big negative for me. Sometimes the mismate jab kills only part of the litter, and there's a whole load of complications that go along with that too. As I did say in my original post, it is my point of view and everyone is different.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Grace_Lily said:


> Who are you to assume the dogs will have a poor quality of life? The proof is in the pudding, and until that's a fact it's an incredibly unfair criticism to make.


seems a high risk to take when they are unaware at this point they are even alive. MoM's siggie says it all for me..... My own opinion


----------



## Cinnebar (Nov 8, 2011)

I think that from my point of view it depends on how early the mismate is given. If it is the first few weeks and the pups are absorbed then it is probably the best solution all round but to give it in the latter half of pregnancy when it would mean the bitch going through labour and delivering dead puppies I'm afraid that I couldn't put a bitch of mine through that.
What I could do (Don't ask how my brain works because I have no idea ) is to allow the bitch to keep one or probably 2 pups and take the rest to the vet for euthanising.


----------



## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> seems a high risk to take when they are unaware at this point they are even alive. MoM's siggie says it all for me..... My own opinion


Don't get me wrong on my stance on rescue; I know there is a crisis and I absolutely *don't* advocate breeding for the hell of it. But, once conception has already taken place my *personal* view is that it's better to make the best of that situation rather than extinguish life.


----------



## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

We take on rescues so they can live a better, safer life. If you suspect your rescue is pregnant please take her to the vet for either a miss mate or a spay.

Rescues have had tough enough lives as it is.:001_unsure:


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Grace_Lily said:


> No, but the human is the one who is making the decision not the dog, and they have to feel comfortable with that.
> 
> In terms of how the puppies are homed, with education and awareness from the breeder the new homes can be vetted just as easily as a rescue does. Just because the puppies aren't health tested doesn't automatically mean they will fall into the wrong hands, and then be shunted onto a rescue. It really is an unfair assumption to make.
> 
> ...


If the dogs havent had any health tests how can you be sure the puppies will be healthy?...you cant even be certain they'll all be healthy when their sire and dam have been tested, anything could crop up, nothing is set in stone..so why take a higher chance?.

one of my bitches has had the mismate jab she was perfectly fine, the risks of whelping are far greater than risks from the jab, the bitches welfare must come first, its also morally wrong to breed from a rescue, im sure PB will want to do the right thing by her bitch.

.


----------



## pop pop (Nov 4, 2010)

thing is though you say give the pups a chance of life, but your risking the bitches life letting her have the litter too,is it worth the risk of killing the bitch just to give an unplanned litter a chance at life? the bitch didnt ask for a daft owner who let a male pup near her when in season, the bitch didnt take a chance and get pregnant, like some humans do, why put a bitch at risk through owners stupidity, i get the gut feeling this litter was planned if im honest thats why shes already asked the other day about what to feed the bitch etc, and asking it in another section just sort of proves that as she knew the answers she would get in here. just my opinion x


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

pop pop said:


> t the bitch didnt ask for a daft owner who let a male pup near her when in season,


----------



## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> If the dogs havent had any health tests how can you be sure the puppies will be healthy?...you cant even be certain they'll all be healthy when their sire and dam have been tested, anything could crop up, nothing is set in stone..so why take a higher chance?.
> 
> one of my bitches has had the mismate jab she was perfectly fine, the risks of whelping are far greater than risks from the jab, the bitches welfare must come first, its also morally wrong to breed from a rescue, im sure PB will want to do the right thing by her bitch.
> 
> .


I guess it depends on what your opinion of healthy is. At the moment, there's no reason why these puppies won't be born developed correctly. Even health checked dogs have the potential to produce unhealthy puppies. The mismate can throw all of that in the air, you can end up with deformed or half culled litters, and to me that is much worse dilemma to be in.

I'm obviously not saying every case of the mismate being used goes wrong, but equally the OP should be made aware that it can and does happen. Morals are a very individual dependent set of rules, i.e. to me it's morally wrong to terminate a pregnancy 

As I have already said, it is the OP's decision but I wanted to add my own experience to give her a more varied response.



pop pop said:


> thing is though you say give the pups a chance of life, but your risking the bitches life letting her have the litter too,is it worth the risk of killing the bitch just to give an unplanned litter a chance at life? the bitch didnt ask for a daft owner who let a male pup near her when in season, the bitch didnt take a chance and get pregnant, like some humans do, why put a bitch at risk through owners stupidity, i get the gut feeling this litter was planned if im honest thats why shes already asked the other day about what to feed the bitch etc, and asking it in another section just sort of proves that as she knew the answers she would get in here. just my opinion x


I guess I must be a daft and stupid owner according to you too in that case, because having researched breeding for years, then deciding against it purely because of the sheer number of dogs in rescue we had our dogs neutered. Unfortunately, about 2 weeks later our bitch came into season and after being kept separate all it took was one forgetful family member to leave a door open and the accident happened!

I wouldn't call myself stupid or daft, and I'm yet to meet a perfect owner


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It is a very difficult decision to make and I don't envy the OP in having to do so. Kali was nearly seven weeks gone when diagnosed preggers and I wouldn't have aborted at that stage. All seven of her pups at four years old are showing no problems and are still in happy homes, although one is in foster due to owner temp working abroad. Flynn of course seemed to bear the brunt of his parents later diagnosed mild HD and his hip score was twice that of his parents. Had I not kept him who knows if his owners would have had the double hip replacement he needed for a happy, healthy life but all in all there are the rest of the litter happy and with owners who dote on them. My pups were lucky but then I have had dealings with their owners constantly during the past four years and will continue to do so. The OP has to be prepared to always help in difficult times if this pregnancy goes ahead.

What I will say is for all his problems I am eternally glad I didn't abort Flynn, he is such a wonderful dog, as are all of his siblings! You just have to always be there for them and make sure you stay in touch with the owners on a regular basis.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

OP most people on here are advising you to mismate or spay.

I would discuss these options with your vet and ensure you understand the process involved and then make an informed choice on the options available.
However it does seem that time isn't on your side here so it is something you need to act on now.

It is a horrible dilemma because it is only natural to want to go ahead with a litter that is a human emotion to see life and not have to end it, no-one probably wants to use mismate etc....it is just sometimes the best option for the dog and their owner.

If you decide to go ahead then you will need to make plans for birth and whelping etc.... and seek the best homes etc.....


----------



## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> OP most people on here are advising you to mismate or spay.
> 
> I would discuss these options with your vet and ensure you understand the process involved and then make an informed choice on the options available.
> However it does seem that time isn't on your side here so it is something you need to act on now.
> ...


This is spot on. It's really your decision, and we can only tell you the pros and cons of each side, and ask you to consider all the facts.

I would look into the agreement you entered into when you got a rescue, though, as many will contain information on pregnancies. Looking through paperwork, my first rescue bitch needed to be spayed for ownership to be given to me, and the second states spaying is necessary and any pups resulting from not spaying her will be legal property of the rescue.

In better legal terms though 

You might need to inform them of what has happened.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

been 4 weeks now? So you have had 4 weeks to go to the vet ask advice and get the mis-mate jab... ? 
I thought rescues were neutered first or came with contracts to neuter?

Great advice from everyone, just hope the OP takes it


----------



## mich1971 (Jan 20, 2012)

You firstly need to ascertain whether there is a pregnancy to terminate in the first place. If there is and you decide to terminate then the Alizin is a much better option than the mismate jab. At this stage they would most likely be reabsorbed with no more than a discharge. The injection is given twice (24 hrs apart). If pups are only 19 days then they have not even implanted yet and are floating around.

If you decide to go ahead then you need to make sure she is on a good quality food, make sure she is fit and healthy, you will need to start worming her from day 42 with panacur and make sure you are prepared for the birth, it can be very expensive so make sure you are prepared financially. Buy the book of the bitch and read it, then read it again and again and again!

Will not give my opinion as it is not my business, all i can say is that you should make a decision NOW and do it.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Grace_Lily said:


> Who are you to assume the dogs will have a poor quality of life? The proof is in the pudding, and until that's a fact it's an incredibly unfair criticism to make.


Unfortunately, the facts are ALL around us - with poorly bred pups, pedigrees and cross-breeds being PTS at a rate faster than most of us can "swing a cat" for want of a better expression.

You can argue the same for any poor breeder - but whether you like it or not, the facts don't lie.

Yes, well bred dogs get rehomed as well, but predominantly through the breeder and breed clubs rather than free-ads and rescue 

Look around at how many people have cross-breeds and BYB pups - the large majority get them from rescue - sadly, much as they may want to, they can't take them all 

Only this week a member acquired a pup just 12 months old and already on it's THIRD home with an owner who was already tearing his hair out - thankfully, he found the forum and with a bit of encouragement, it looks like things are thankfully going to work out - he is one of the lucky ones - if it hadn't worked - it would have been rescue or home 4 on the way.

In addition to the risks of the potential life these pups can get - there is the risks to the bith of continuing a pregnancy - the risk that she will reject them

Bitches don't need puppies, they have them because humans make the decision in whatever form to allow it to happen; if humans are going to make these decisions, then the very LEAST that can be done is to ensure that the best possible steps are taken to minimise the risks to the health and long term welfare of those pups and mum.


----------



## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Unfortunately, the facts are ALL around us - with poorly bred pups, pedigrees and cross-breeds being PTS at a rate faster than most of us can "swing a cat" for want of a better expression.
> 
> You can argue the same for any poor breeder - but whether you like it or not, the facts don't lie.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid my opinion still stands, although I have said all along it is my opinion and I'm not looking for lots of people to agree with me, just for the OP to have another viewpoint in order to make a balanced decision.

Yes, there are risks in terms of the lives the puppies will lead but IMO these can be mitigated if not ruled out completely by the breeder. A simple contract clause stating that the dogs will always be returned to her keeps them out of the rescue situation. And this is only a *potential* situation, for all we know the dogs may happily go off into their homes and remain there forever. Life is full of risks, it's how you deal with them matters and if the OP's dog is in whelp there's risks involved no matter which way she goes forward now.

Giving birth isn't an unnatural thing, yes there is a small risk the puppies will be rejected, but that's not commonplace. Equally, there's a risk the mismate will produce deformed puppies. I know I'd rather trust nature on this one than have man fiddle with it. You seem quite hung up on _potential_ risks, and while I'm all for sensible planning it's a fact of life that we take real, actual risks everyday and are just fine. You could go out tomorrow and get hit by a bus, where do you draw in the line in just avoiding risks altogether? Bearing in mind the OP *cannot* avoid risks altogether now, whether she whelps or has the mismate jab administered there are risks attached.

I didn't for once say bitches need to have puppies, and infact I believe the contrary, most dogs should not be intentionally bred. If we are looking at health and welfare of the puppies I would argue it's in their interests to be left well alone! How is the health and welfare of the puppies going to be considered once they are aborted


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Quiddelbach said:


> Personally, I would spay her now.
> 
> I am not sure there is any reason to use mismate in this instance, just take the lot away and that is the end of it.
> 
> The only moral dilemma I can see is a rescue having an unwanted litter. Maybe I am a harsh old bag though


Of course the bitch should not have been mated and the owner should have got the mismate straight away or within the first week.

But I am not sure how many vets would spay a pregnant bitch. The risk to the bitch is quite great so they might well think it more sensible to let the bitch go ahead and have the pups now. If there are any.
I know nothing about giving the mismate later on in pregnancy but after reading it on here I did speak to my vet about it and he did not seem very keen on it.

As someone else said the best bet is to discuss the options with a vet and then decide what to do - but my guess is the vet option will be to wait and see.


----------



## Quiddelbach (Dec 5, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Of course the bitch should not have been mated and the owner should have got the mismate straight away or within the first week.
> 
> But I am not sure how many vets would spay a pregnant bitch. The risk to the bitch is quite great so they might well think it more sensible to let the bitch go ahead and have the pups now. If there are any.
> I know nothing about giving the mismate later on in pregnancy but after reading it on here I did speak to my vet about it and he did not seem very keen on it.
> ...


I asked at the practice my daughter works at for someone recently, and the senior vet indicated that it is of course more risky at 4-5 weeks, but no more risky than labour or birth, and in fact he said that it is just as dangerous to have a c section at 9 weeks, all carry threats to the bitch, as does the mismate jab. In this instance, with a rescue bitch with no health testing of sire and dam I would choose to spay.

Of course we all agree it should never have happened, but it does, and many of us with mixed sex households will have accidents, I have been lucky so far and it has not happened here, and along with very careful regime I hope it never does.

I do not critisize the deed itself, but hate to see morals used as an excuse for a bitch to have an unplanned litter and wonder why no action was taken sooner.

I suspect this litter will be born, in fact I have doubts it was an accident. I do hope the rescue involved are supportive and do not try to take the bitch back 

Could they? have agreements been broken? I would be very careful saying too much on a public forum if I were the OP .

A sad situation for everyone involved I think


----------



## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I have always been under the impression that rescue dogs are spayed/neutered before going to new homes?? The rescue's i foster and work for dont allow the animals to go untill they have been spayed/neutered and vacinated


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

tashax said:


> I have always been under the impression that rescue dogs are spayed/neutered before going to new homes?? The rescue's i foster and work for dont allow the animals to go untill they have been spayed/neutered and vacinated


Sadly not, I was also under the same impression - but some I believe have agreements in place to neuter once in the new home (not to get the bitch in whelp and produce more potential rescue pups  )

The irony of all this is we tried to rescue before we got our 2nd, and they wouldn't allow us to because our resident bitch was entire - and "an accident might happen" - even though we were trying to home a neutered bitch 

There's something wrong somewhere when a rescue won't home a neutered bitch with a resident entire bitch yet will home an entire bitch with an entire dog (assuming they knew about it)

Like QB - I have a mixed sex household - I am all too aware that accidents can and do happen - and scarily - some can go un-noticed - but if one of my my boys got to one of my girls and I knew about it, and wasn't happy for that bitch to have a litter (ALL my bitches are health-tested) - I would be hotfooting it down to the vets before the damn w*lly was back in


----------



## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

What kind of system is that if they dont do follow up checks?? At CP we will let un-neutered kittens go BUT the owner has to bring the kitten in to us to be neutered by our vet our they get a voucher which is sent to their vets directly and CP is informed if it isnt used. CP cats are the property of CP until a follow up home check has been done 6 months after the initial homing of the cat. So if the voucher isnt used and there isnt a good reason why CP does have a right to take the cat back. I dont think that has ever happened at the branch i work at though. Why take all the time and hassle to adopt an animal and then not care for it utterly and completely??


----------



## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

regardless now.. OP hasn't been back on since the thread was started..


----------



## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Cinnebar said:


> What I could do (Don't ask how my brain works because I have no idea ) is to allow the bitch to keep one or probably 2 pups and take the rest to the vet for euthanising.


WTF!
I cant believe someone wrote that on this forum and nothing has been said about it


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Mese said:


> WTF!
> I cant believe someone wrote that on this forum and nothing has been said about it


I have to confess I didn't see it - and it's taken me several attempts at trawling the posts to find it  that's really going to thrill those who put the mismate in the same class as human abortion - defies belief really the things people come up with 

I can handle the idea of mismate / spay - but ................................


----------



## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I didnt see that  and cant find it either


----------



## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

Cinnebar said:


> I think that from my point of view it depends on how early the mismate is given. If it is the first few weeks and the pups are absorbed then it is probably the best solution all round but to give it in the latter half of pregnancy when it would mean the bitch going through labour and delivering dead puppies I'm afraid that I couldn't put a bitch of mine through that.
> What I could do (Don't ask how my brain works because I have no idea ) is to allow the bitch to keep one or probably 2 pups and take the rest to the vet for euthanising.


This is the full post, for those who were looking for it.

I have no words for this. I mean...just nothing.


----------



## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Oh i have plenty of words for that, not very polite ones though  :mad5:


----------



## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Alwaysinteresting how people wait so long to ask for advice when theythi k their dog may have been caught... 

Although spaying etc may not be savoury to everyonefor ethical reasons.. But nor is letting a rescue have pups... And I find iteven more unsavoury that real grown up adult dogs are put to sleep every day in pounds. One of the pounds I know can put 5 or 6 dogs a week to sleep not all staffies and often under 6 months old. That's just in one town. 

This one litter you may think makes no difference but add them all up and it is part of the problem


----------



## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

TBH i dont think the OP had any other intention than to let her bitch have these pups


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

tashax said:


> TBH i dont think the OP had any other intention than to let her bitch have these pups


Knowing the OP as I do, I think you are wrong


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Mese said:


> WTF!
> I cant believe someone wrote that on this forum and nothing has been said about it


That has to be one of the most sadest sickest things I have ever read


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

tashax said:


> TBH i dont think the OP had any other intention than to let her bitch have these pups





rona said:


> Knowing the OP as I do, I think you are wrong


I hope you are right Rona - but if you are, why on earth where they asking advice on what food they should be giving a pregnant bitch?

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/215224-pregnant-bitch.html


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Cinnebar said:


> I think that from my point of view it depends on how early the mismate is given. If it is the first few weeks and the pups are absorbed then it is probably the best solution all round but to give it in the latter half of pregnancy when it would *mean the bitch going through labour and delivering dead puppies I'm afraid that I couldn't put a bitch of mine through that.*What I could do (Don't ask how my brain works because I have no idea ) is *to allow the bitch to keep one or probably 2 pups and take the rest to the vet for euthanising*.


but you could kill her healthy born puppies? Is this post serious?


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I hope you are right Rona - but if you are, why on earth where they asking advice on what food they should be giving a pregnant bitch?
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/215224-pregnant-bitch.html


I too thought it very strange asking about feeding a pregnant bitch before this thread about an 'accidental' mating. And the title of the thread appears to me that she had been thinking about this for some time. Thinking when actually she should have been acting on it.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

swarthy said:


> I hope you are right Rona - but if you are, why on earth where they asking advice on what food they should be giving a pregnant bitch?
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/215224-pregnant-bitch.html





rocco33 said:


> I too thought it very strange asking about feeding a pregnant bitch before this thread about an 'accidental' mating. And the title of the thread appears to me that she had been thinking about this for some time. Thinking when actually she should have been acting on it.


 That thread was made only one day before this one.
I really feel that both were made by a person feeling extremely upset, guilty and to be honest, at the end of her tether.


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I know from my experience at least that it is a very testing time and you are at the end of your tether. I didn't have the guts to join a forum to ask for help as I felt it was too late at seven weeks anyway and felt sure I would have been judged. 

Who knows, the OP could be bawling her eye's out not knowing what decision is the best - I was, but no one on a forum would have believed me I'm sure! 

That's one of the reasons why when threads like this come up I try not to jump to conclusions!


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

But why wait 4wks before doing anything?


----------



## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I am sure there may be many genuine accidents out there but why do people wait so long to decide to do something about it ? What breed are the dogs btw? Talking generally here but it's amazing how often the dad is someone who is the same breed or who would make a good match. 

I am pro neutering I know not everyone is but it's the surest way to prevent this happening if you can't keep them seperate and want to avoid accidents


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

aw ive just looked, shes a little short legged jrt... and it sounds as though she possibly had pups only last year just before she was rescued...i really hope you wont let this pregnancy go ahead PB, she dosent exactly look as though shes in her prime either, plus your boy looks a much bigger type, i think you'll be taking a big risk with her health if you do go ahead .


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> but you could kill her healthy born puppies? Is this post serious?


lol glad I wasnt the only one confused by that, its surely crueler to take them from her once she's actually met them lol then before they are born.


----------



## LianneC (Jan 19, 2012)

This is probably pointless now but the first thing the OP should have done was inform the rescue where she got the bitch. Why on earth they would rehome an entire bitch with an entire dog is beyond me but it's up to the rescue to be deciding what to do about it; not the adopter.


----------



## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

The op has been part of this forum for a while and there is always threads up about mis-mate jabs, if she wasnt going to go ahead with the birth than why not call her vet as soon as she had a feeling that the mating had happened?? Or at least come on here and said something before now?? The reason why everyone is jumping to conclusions is because it has been 4 weeks, why wait so long?? 

Malmum your experiance was completely different, OP has been on this forum awhile and there are many many posts about mis-mate jabs and accidental matings.


----------



## Cinnebar (Nov 8, 2011)

OK, I'll try and explain what was going through my head.
I firstly have great problems with anyone who can let a dog and bitch get together 'accidentally' and not immediately do something about it. I have a mixed household and have never had an accident - partly good luck I suppose, but mainly strict management.
It was suggested that the mismate could be given up to 45 days, by which time the pups are fully formed but not viable.
I have been with sheep who had early deliveries and a bitch (not mine) who had 2 dead puppies and watching the distress of those animals and they desperately tried to revive their young was absolutely heartbreaking. They mourned for a long time, but it was accidental, a bad break from mother nature. 
To purposefully put a bitch in that scenario feels to me to be one of the cruelest things that you can do. I just couldn't live with myself if I had made an animal go through labour only to have to mourn at the end of it.
I did realise that my suggestion of euthanising puppies would not be popular, but I did expect some of you to try and see past the initial horror and try to see that at least the bitch would have something to love and mother and the number of unwanted puppies would be reduced. I honestly don't know whether I could do it, as I said i have managed to keep my lot separated and haven't had unwanted litters, but I thought this was a discussion and it was a suggestion that was thrown into the pot as possibly preferable to a grieving bitch. 
Maybe I will just go back to lurking and keep my ideas to my self in the future


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Cinnebar said:


> Maybe I will just go back to lurking and keep my ideas to my self in the future


Just because people dont agree or understand your views doesnt mean you shouldnt say them, thats your right as much as everyone elses.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

tashax said:


> The op has been part of this forum for a while and there is always threads up about mis-mate jabs, if she wasnt going to go ahead with the birth than why not call her vet as soon as she had a feeling that the mating had happened?? Or at least come on here and said something before now?? The reason why everyone is jumping to conclusions is because it has been 4 weeks, why wait so long??
> 
> Malmum your experiance was completely different, OP has been on this forum awhile and there are many many posts about mis-mate jabs and accidental matings.


If you check the OP's posting history, you would see that they spent most of their time in general chat. Theres a good chance she never visited the breeding section as it held little interest for her.

Personally, PB doesnt strike me as the sort to go ahead with a litter of pups, especially not form a rescue dog. I think, like with many people, she just wasn't aware that young puppies can be fertile, nor that a mismate jab is available.

For all we now she has gone off and had it sorted. Maybe instead of guessing any making assumptions, we should give her the chance and benefit of the doubt.

She asked, she was given the info.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> If you check the OP's posting history, you would see that they spent most of their time in general chat. Theres a good chance she never visited the breeding section as it held little interest for her.
> 
> Personally, PB doesnt strike me as the sort to go ahead with a litter of pups, especially not form a rescue dog. I think, like with many people, she just wasn't aware that young puppies can be fertile, nor that a mismate jab is available.
> 
> ...


Plus its only been a couple days lol, hardly means she aint coming back, benefit of the doubt an all.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> Plus its only been a couple days lol, hardly means she aint coming back, benefit of the doubt an all.


Some people have lives outside of the internet WL, can you believe it?!


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Some people have lives outside of the internet WL, can you believe it?!


WTF and no one told me  :sneaky2:


----------



## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

having gone through this thread it's made me consider whether if push came to shove and I found myself in the OP's position, would I be able to use a mismate or whatever to abort a litter of pups. Dogs are so far removed from humans, they have instincts, they know when they are pregnant, they know when the time is right to deliver, they also would know when the pups had been lost. There is no way of ever truly knowing how they deal with it. Yes we can observe and pick up on small signs of distress or frustration, in the case of a phantom, the signs can be very obvious and upsetting but how could anyone ever guess beforehand and put their bitch through something as traumatic as an abortion, I know now that I couldn't.

I guess some if not most will come down on me like a ton of bricks for my admission but I have never and would never put myself into that position to start with, it's just not worth the risk and possible consequences. My girls and boys are separated for the whole duration of a season, I don't mean with just a door or gate between them, I mean in separate houses 3 miles apart. When we do breed, it's very controlled to ensure there can be no mistakes.

It baffles me that in this day and age, with all that is available in forums and the like, that there are still so many ignorant people out there. Anyone with entire girls and boys should be asking the questions beforehand on how to avoid an accidental mating but it seems that most only wait until after the event when... dare I say it... they think it's too late


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> PB are you planning on breeding her?
> 
> If not.. Its not too late at 4 weeks to have her done.. It may sound cruel.. But please think of all the out there already....


No I am not she is a rescue dog it is not on to do this to her. and she is book to be given the snip on Wednesday, as some have said I had to be very instant with the vet, but he saw I just don't want to loose Tilly.


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

pop pop said:


> thing is though you say give the pups a chance of life, but your risking the bitches life letting her have the litter too,is it worth the risk of killing the bitch just to give an unplanned litter a chance at life? the bitch didnt ask for a daft owner who let a male pup near her when in season, the bitch didnt take a chance and get pregnant, like some humans do, why put a bitch at risk through owners stupidity, i get the gut feeling this litter was planned if im honest thats why shes already asked the other day about what to feed the bitch etc, and asking it in another section just sort of proves that as she knew the answers she would get in here. just my opinion x


Hello Pop pop who talks a lot of Poop Poop I was horrified that she was got at,,, I asked about the food because Tilly came to me in Bad shape and if this starting of new life undid all our hard work (even if was early stages). But you where right about the daft owner I was daft but I adore that little dog,

I cannot and would not want a litter. My daughter has Tourettes and my work hours have to go back up to 30hours so no Puppies are the last thing on my wish list !!!! but thank you for you point of view.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

piggybaker said:


> No I am not she is a rescue dog it is not on to do this to her. and she is book to be given the snip on Wednesday, as some have said I had to be very instant with the vet, but he saw I just don't want to loose Tilly.


Oh well done PB, i didn't think you'd go ahead and let her have them.

Best of luck for her on wednesday.


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Well I have just taken time out to read the whole of the thread,,,, OMG is that really what some of the members think of me!!!!!:crying: I am shocked that some members who have had little to no contact with me would jump to such massive conclusions on my character. 

We rescued Tilly from a 7 day pound, The dogs picked up by the warden taken to this place held for seven days if not claimed they go up for rehoming it is one of the saddest places I have ever been, she came from the kennels still lactating and still dripping blood from her vulva, she had no hair on her legs, tummy or ears or the top of her muzzle she had hardle any body fat on her and her nails had curled under. 

We got her took her to the vet who microchipped her gave her vacs checked her out and said he wanted her to have one season before he gave her the snip, which she did(whilst on holiday with us in Cornwall), she was booked in for her snip on the 16th of december to be given the snip but came into season a few days before so it was cancelled with a new date set for the new year......

Tilly is an amazing dog who we have worked hard to get back to a good health if not now portly weight all her fur has grown back and her teeth are now white with no tartar (which we also worked hard on),

So I am disappointed that the newer members and a couple of longer serving ones, felt they needed to misjudge me and dig at my lack of response to the thread, but I have a busy life in the real world. I am very gratefull to those members who have had contact enough with me to know that this is not what I wanted for my girl and my mistake was a honest one


----------



## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

Hopefully I don't come into either category...I thought I was quite careful not to judge you or the situation, and just give advice. If it didn't come across that way, then I apologize.

Best of luck to Tilly on Wednesday. I'm glad she has come on so much since you got her - she sounds like a very lucky dog!


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I am now going to ask for this thread to be closed there has been some great constructive advice and also a little mud slinging 

Thank you for reading


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I hope everything goes well on Wednesday and this thread hasn't upset you too much. 

Let us know how it goes.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

hugs noodle xx in before the close


----------

