# I get soooo frustrated.....



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

I don't believe in people using their dogs to hunt wildlife... As I believe all life is precious, what makes a pets life worth more than a wildlife life? A collar?

People know I find it hurtful to hear of others on here killing wildlife with their dogs, so post a veiled comment to me they are hunting tomorrow with their dogs on my visitors page.....

So I ask you, what makes a pets life worth more than a wildlife life? A collar? Ownership? I believe both deserve their lives equally...though there is an argument that could say certain wildlife is endangered, and thus maybe worth a bit more? Though, personally I say all life is equal!

What do you members think? I am extreme? Alone in my views?


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I hope your OK hun?? I hate that too, i have pretty strong views too.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> .....I have strong views, and good at debating....
> 
> I don't believe in people using their dogs to hunt wildlife... As I believe all life is precious, what makes a pets life worth more than a wildlife life? A collar?People know I find it hurtful to hear of others on here killing wildlife with their dogs, so post a veiled comment to me they are hunting tomorrow with their dogs on my visitors page.....
> 
> ...


Nothing seperates them. A life is a life. All animals deserve the right to live.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Nothing seperates them. A life is a life. All animals deserve the right to live.


Thank you!  Sometimes I wonder if we truely are on an animal loving forum...


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> Thank you!  Sometimes I wonder if we truely are on an animal loving forum...


Me too! Your not alone there!


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Me too! Your not alone there!


Thank you, good to know I am not alone! 

Its like peoples egos are more important than the animals lives, and humans need comes first.....


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> Thank you, good to know I am not alone!
> 
> Its like peoples egos are more important than the animals lives, and humans need comes first.....


I know what you mean.

I have a daugter and she will always come first. Always.

However that does not mean that animals come 'second', its hard to explain, but i know what i mean lol!

Animal welfare is a big part of my life......and will be a big part of hers too!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Whether I hunt or not I would not purposely upset a person who is against it. ....Jill


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> Whether I hunt or not I would not purposely upset a person who is against it. ....Jill


Thanks Jill, x x x though my thread is more about the pets versus wildlife issue!


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I do think you are extreme in your views!

I dont think you are open minded enough to respect other peoples choices. I just had a gander at what went on between you and BM and I have to say you were no better and defiently not acting like an adult.

Everylife is important, but some people hunt because thats how they make their living and I think as long as they use every bit of the animal and its done humanly then its fine.

I'm thinking when we get our dog possible labrador ,golden retriever or ESS. That I might want to train it to retrieve and work but I am still unsure if I would want to go on an actual shoot more so because Id be afraid of someone shooting me!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I think each to their own really.

Who decides who is a 'better' animal lover?

I persaonlly will never hunt. I don't agree with it and I don't have the stomach for it. None of my dogs work. They are purely pets.

I see what you mean with regards to how can someone say they are an animal lover yet allow their animals to kill something but working dogs are bred to just that. All animals have that instinct inside them, some are just trained to a higher standard than others to do that job.

Um. I hope I've explained that properly! Bottom line I don't like hunting or agree with it BUT I am not here to judge either.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> Thanks Jill, x x x though my thread is more about the pets versus wildlife issue!


Oops miss read sorry. I would never let my pets purposely hunt yuk...Jill


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> Oops miss read sorry. I would never let my pets purposely hunt yuk...Jill


You didn't misread  I mentioned other things that led me to writing this thread....So, its my fault lol x


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I do think you are extreme in your views!
> 
> I dont think you are open minded enough to respect other peoples choices. I just had a gander at what went on between you and BM and I have to say you were no better and defiently not acting like an adult.
> 
> ...


How do you think the poor animal feels? How would you like someone to hunt and kill your pets? In my view there is no difference....

People will always try to justify blood letting....

And you are no more open minded either in your views...... At least my views don't cause blood shed of an innocent animal....

Does that give me the moral higher ground? Maybe....


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I think each to their own really.
> 
> Who decides who is a 'better' animal lover?
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting Sequeena... A very objective view!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Thank you for posting Sequeena... A very objective view!


Thanks  I'm trying to curb my emotions


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> How do you think the poor animal feels? How would you like someone to hunt and kill your pets? In my view there is no difference....
> 
> ...


I am open minded because I respect your choice but I dont think YOU repect other peoples

Well I think in some cases the animal doesnt realize its being hunted in some cases were it might be in others. I dont think anyone would be able to shoot through a wall do you? (my pets are inside only)

So just because my views cause blood shed I'm not open minded hmmmm..... ut:

I'm not saying everyone thats hunts isnt horrible and I'm not saying everyone who doesnt is horrible.

AND I do have MORALS.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I am open minded because I respect your choice but I dont think YOU repect other peoples
> 
> Well I think in some cases the animal doesnt realize its being hunted in some cases were it might be in others. I dont think anyone would be able to shoot through a wall do you? (my pets are inside only)
> 
> ...


BTW, I always treat people with respect on here, I always post my view politely. 
And have I ever said I do not respect anybody? Think not....

My cats are indoors only too, see we do have some common ground!


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## jaxx (Aug 10, 2009)

I have the greatest respect for other people's opinions and I believe that everyone should have a say. Given what's been happening with this forum recently I've been reluctant to give my opinion on various subjects that will stir peoples passions. But I do have an opinion on this one so what I say here is only my opinion and I don't want people to believe that it is what I think other people should believe either. Each to their own. If I'm reported and banned, so be it.

I personally hate fox hunting as well as hare coursing, I totally disagree with them because the animals are put through sheer terror before being ripped apart by dogs. But I grew up in a shooting family. Don't get me wrong, we're certainly not part of the landed gentry etc but my dad has always enjoyed shooting. I was born in Australia and we lived in a pretty remote area of the north west so hunting was a big thing up there. When we came back to England dad brought his shooting passion home with him. He used to take me shooting with him. Not every time was actually game shooting, it was mostly clay pigeon but he did do some rabbit and pigeon shooting. We did have a gun dog, an English springer spaniel and she was also our family pet. Whenever dad did shoot an animal it was always a good clean shot. Our dog was only ever used to retrieve, never to hunt herself. All rabbits and pigeons that dad did shoot were cooked and eaten by the whole family. 

We as a species are omnivores, we'll eat everything available including meat. I would much rather eat meat from an animal that has, hitherto, lived it's life as natural as possible instead of being intensively reared and slaughtered in an abbatoir. But we also invite animals into our home as our pets, lavish love and attention on them and grieve when they die. Yet other cultures would see that as bizarre. The guinea pig is used as food in some places as is the dog. But we don't feel the same way about a piece of chicken that we have in our freezer. Because it comes prepackaged and we don't have to slaughter it, pluck it, gut it etc we don't have to think about what the animal went through to get to our freezer. 

I feel like I am a hypocrite because I do eat meat and I certainly couldn't kill an animal but yet I have meat in my freezer, I have leather goods and they come from animals. Surely they must also deserve to live? 

So is one animal more deserving of life than another just because it's a pet? I think unless you can live a truly vegan existance it's impossible to say no. 

Sorry if I went a bit off topic there and missed the whole point of the thread.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

I am not closed minded at all, just have very strong beliefs and opinions....So have you..... its allowed....


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

I personally could never hunt nor let any pet of mine hunt but i do respect others who do. Saying that the two things i dont feel so strongly about killing are...Fish (as i used to go fishing with ex partner) and spiders coz i cant stand them. Does that make me a hypocrite? Probably...but im an honest one.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

jaxx said:


> I have the greatest respect for other people's opinions and I believe that everyone should have a say. Given what's been happening with this forum recently I've been reluctant to give my opinion on various subjects that will stir peoples passions. But I do have an opinion on this one so what I say here is only my opinion and I don't want people to believe that it is what I think other people should believe either. Each to their own. If I'm reported and banned, so be it.
> 
> I personally hate fox hunting as well as hare coursing, I totally disagree with them because the animals are put through sheer terror before being ripped apart by dogs. But I grew up in a shooting family. Don't get me wrong, we're certainly not part of the landed gentry etc but my dad has always enjoyed shooting. I was born in Australia and we lived in a pretty remote area of the north west so hunting was a big thing up there. When we came back to England dad brought his shooting passion home with him. He used to take me shooting with him. Not every time was actually game shooting, it was mostly clay pigeon but he did do some rabbit and pigeon shooting. We did have a gun dog, an English springer spaniel and she was also our family pet. Whenever dad did shoot an animal it was always a good clean shot. Our dog was only ever used to retrieve, never to hunt herself. All rabbits and pigeons that dad did shoot were cooked and eaten by the whole family.
> 
> ...


Brilliant post! And totally on topic! Thank you for posting....you are posting from an angle with experience in the matter!

ps. I am a veggie/vegan....


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

jaxx said:


> I have the greatest respect for other people's opinions and I believe that everyone should have a say. Given what's been happening with this forum recently I've been reluctant to give my opinion on various subjects that will stir peoples passions. But I do have an opinion on this one so what I say here is only my opinion and I don't want people to believe that it is what I think other people should believe either. Each to their own. If I'm reported and banned, so be it.
> 
> I personally hate fox hunting as well as hare coursing, I totally disagree with them because the animals are put through sheer terror before being ripped apart by dogs. But I grew up in a shooting family. Don't get me wrong, we're certainly not part of the landed gentry etc but my dad has always enjoyed shooting. I was born in Australia and we lived in a pretty remote area of the north west so hunting was a big thing up there. When we came back to England dad brought his shooting passion home with him. He used to take me shooting with him. Not every time was actually game shooting, it was mostly clay pigeon but he did do some rabbit and pigeon shooting. We did have a gun dog, an English springer spaniel and she was also our family pet. Whenever dad did shoot an animal it was always a good clean shot. Our dog was only ever used to retrieve, never to hunt herself. All rabbits and pigeons that dad did shoot were cooked and eaten by the whole family.
> 
> ...


Great post and very honest. You certainly have my respect..xxxx


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> I personally could never hunt nor let any pet of mine hunt but i do respect others who do. Saying that the two things i dont feel so strongly about killing are...Fish (as i used to go fishing with ex partner) and spiders coz i cant stand them. Does that make me a hypocrite? Probably...but im an honest one.


Get off my thread, ya spider hunter!!!!! pmsl x x x 

I hate fishing as well.... :blushing:

Extreme by most peoples standards? Yes, but its my way of life....

And you have yours!


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> BTW, I always treat people with respect on here, I always post my view politely. And have I ever said I do not respect anybody? Think not....
> 
> My cats are indoors only too, see we do have some common ground!


You havent said per say but you have hinted at it. By telling people who are interested in continuing the breed in a ethical way because they care and love that breed that they should get there cats fixed and enjoy them as pets. Many breeders love their cats and to them they come as pet first and as long as they health test and do every correctly whats wrong with that?

My cats are indoor because I care about their safety as well as I dont want them killing animals outside needlessly.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

My cat is indoor because I don't want HER getting killed


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Get off my thread, ya spider hunter!!!!! pmsl x x x
> 
> I hate fishing as well.... :blushing:
> 
> ...


Nope id never hunt a spider, im too scared...lol...i only kill them when they're coming to get me. :001_tt2: 
You know i respect your views and always will...xxxx


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

sequeena said:


> My cat is indoor because I don't want HER getting killed


Same reason i keep my cat indoors..xxx


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Nope id never hunt a spider, im too scared...lol...i only kill them when they're coming to get me. :001_tt2:
> You know i respect your views and always will...xxxx


Exactly, but people on here seem to think I don't respect them....and that couldn't be further from the truth!

Some of my best friends in life, and some from this forum have COMPLETELY different views from me....

Whats that next to your shoulder? Ohhhh its got eight legs and hunting/stalking ya!  x x x


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## jaxx (Aug 10, 2009)

*phew* glad my post has been received in the spirit it was intended.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Same reason i keep my cat indoors..xxx


Exactly. Didn't even think about her killing animals (or rather people :laugh


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Miss.PuddyCat said:
> 
> 
> > I just said you are accusing me of being closed minded, and suggested maybe you are also..... I am not closed minded at all, just have very strong beliefs and opinions....So have you..... its allowed....
> ...


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

sequeena said:


> My cat is indoor because I don't want HER getting killed


The main reason my 4 are indoor pussy cats!

Cars, roads, fireworks and of course wanna be hunters with airguns


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## jaxx (Aug 10, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> and of course wanna be hunters with airguns


Now those I totally disagree with. I think they should be strung up by their wassits


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## Captain.Charisma (May 24, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> ..... some members on here!
> 
> I don't believe in people using their dogs to hunt wildlife... As I believe all life is precious, what makes a pets life worth more than a wildlife life? A collar?
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Would you believe me if I said my old pet bird would attack my cats not the other way around?


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Exactly, but people on here seem to think I don't respect them....and that couldn't be further from the truth!
> 
> Some of my best friends in life, and some from this forum have COMPLETELY different views from me....
> 
> Whats that next to your shoulder? Ohhhh its got eight legs and hunting/stalking ya!  x x x


Im so laughing  :lol::lol:
Trying to scare me like that you naughty person. 
Well ive seen how some people react to your opinions on here and claim you have no respect for other peoples views but that couldn't be further from the truth. Speaking from experience, i know your views and you know mine....We do not judge each other or feel the need to resort to insults or abuse. Basically we respect each others opinions. Shame some others cant see that side to you. xxxx



jaxx said:


> *phew* glad my post has been received in the spirit it was intended.


I think your post was honest and you was very respectful of other peoples views too. You also put it across in a way that was not abusive or judgemental. Hence it being a great post...xxxx


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

jaxx said:


> *phew* glad my post has been received in the spirit it was intended.


I am glad, that you are glad lol! x

Though, I sometimes take a deep breath before posting, so completely understand your worries before hitting the submit button!


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## Captain.Charisma (May 24, 2009)

jaxx said:


> Now those I totally disagree with. I think they should be strung up by their wassits


I think they should be shot in the arse


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> The main reason my 4 are indoor pussy cats!
> 
> Cars, roads, fireworks and of course wanna be hunters with airguns


Exactly. I've lost too many cats to cars and foxes, I don't want to go through it again.

Cotton is starting to want to go out. Bugger that! But it reminds me she needs to be neutered soon!


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Would you believe me if I said my old pet bird would attack my cats not the other way around?


Yip, when I was little....the only pet we had was a rainbow budgie Lucky and she was a right wee character. Her cage was open all day long, except at bedtime. She used to swoop down and bite my dad on the head. Drew blood on more than one occassion...

So yes, I believe you!


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

It's absolutely fine for you to disagree with breeding but at the same time you have to understand that some people are passionate about it and by going into the breeding section it's perhaps asking for trouble?

Same with hunting or working dogs, wether or not you agree with it you have to realise that some people on this forum do participate in this and that does not make them any less of a person then you, sometimes you have to agree to disagree and let things go.

After all if we were all the same then the world would be a pretty boring place!


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Yip, when I was little....the only pet we had was a rainbow budgie Lucky and she was a right wee character. Her cage was open all day long, except at bedtime. She used to swoop down and bite my dad on the head. Drew blood on more than one occassion...
> 
> So yes, I believe you!


I've had a canary,budgie and cocketiel.

Eddie the cocketiel wuld dive bomb the cats and sit on them and they would freeze on the spot. Unforuntly I had to give eddie up.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> It's absolutely fine for you to disagree with breeding but at the same time you have to understand that some people are passionate about it and by going into the breeding section it's perhaps asking for trouble?
> 
> Same with hunting or working dogs, wether or not you agree with it you have to realise that some people on this forum do participate in this and that does not make them any less of a person then you, sometimes you have to agree to disagree and let things go.
> 
> After all if we were all the same then the world would be a pretty boring place!


The majority of your comments in your post i agree with.
Respect works both ways.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> This is not the case with all people and certainly not a few of the people that were quite upset by these comments.
> 
> It's absolutely fine for you to disagree with breeding but at the same time you have to understand that some people are passionate about it and by going into the breeding section it's perhaps asking for trouble?
> 
> ...


This is what I was trying to say, shes better with words then me


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I've had a canary,budgie and cocketiel.
> 
> Eddie the cocketiel wuld dive bomb the cats and sit on them and they would freeze on the spot. Unforuntly I had to give eddie up.


I had a cockatiel that I named Freddie Starr. What a sweetie he was  I remember there being a female cockatiel too and they had an egg but I don't think it ever hatched


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> This is not the case with all people and certainly not a few of the people that were quite upset by these comments.
> 
> It's absolutely fine for you to disagree with breeding but at the same time you have to understand that some people are passionate about it and by going into the breeding section it's perhaps asking for trouble?
> 
> ...


This thread is not about breeding...which yes I am against! So please stay on topic!

I posted politely on that thread also, as I am doing here, just stated my opinion....


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I had a cockatiel that I named Freddie Starr. What a sweetie he was  I remember there being a female cockatiel too and they had an egg but I don't think it ever hatched


Eddie was a Sweetie to, hed prune my hair. When I took him to the resuce the people were lovely. I told them all the stories about him and background information. But on the drive home I felt like the worst person in the world, that I had given up my friend :crying::crying: I was the biggest mess you could have seen in the world, i just couldnt stop crying. Im crying now for pities sake!

They told me cocketiels grow attached to one person only and Eddie grew attached to me but even though I gave him a good life I knew deep down inside someone could do better. It broke my heart giving him away.


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> The majority of your comments in your post i agree with, Respect works both ways.


I was meerly trying to explain that sometimes she may come across wrongly when explaining her views and people take things the wrong way and jump to the defensive, the breeding thread was simply an example.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> I was meerly trying to explain that sometimes she may come across wrongly when explaining her views and people take things the wrong way and jump to the defensive, the breeding thread was simply an example.


Fair play...I wasn't having a dig at you i just didn't want this thread to turn into an argument or go off topic. I do respect your views though.


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

I agree it was completely wrong the battle that resulted and completely unfair I am just simply explaining that sometimes when two people with very strong views come up against each other the result is never nice and it's simply a case of learning to bite your tongue and try not to rise to the bait sometimes.


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Fair play...I wasn't having a dig at you i just didn't want this thread to turn into an argument or go off topic. I do respect your views though.


Not a problem at all, did not see it as a dig.

I did not want my post to come across as trying to argue or bring the OP poster down, I respect the views of Tilly very much and share an awful lot of them so can see where she is coming from but I have learnt that some battles you cannot win and so you have to live and let live.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Already apologised for this was meerly giving an example of a situation when people have mis-understood the point you are trying to get across.
> 
> I agree it was completely wrong the battle that resulted and completely unfair I am just simply explaining that sometimes when two people with very strong views come up against each other the result is never nice and it's simply a case of learning to bite your tongue and try not to rise to the bait sometimes.


I think I do bite my tongue lol....Though maybe I come across abrupt sometimes??????


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Not a problem at all, did not see it as a dig.
> 
> I did not want my post to come across as trying to argue or bring the OP poster down, I respect the views of Tilly very much and share an awful lot of them so can see where she is coming from but I have learnt that some battles you cannot win and so you have to live and let live.


So true.. 
Im very opinionated but even i have to hold back sometimes. After all, the world doesn't revolve around me and my opinions dont always mean they are the right opinions. I guess especially when it's the written word we have to take into account how easily things can be misinterpreted too as there's no facial expressions or tone of voice to go by. I think it's usually how something is said and not what is said that matters most and shows the most respect.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I think I do bite my tongue lol....Though maybe I come across abrupt sometimes??????
> 
> ...


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I think I do bite my tongue lol....Though maybe I come across abrupt sometimes??????


I agree to some extent that people do resort to name calling when losing an argument, one thing which I disagree with completly. People can have different views without making it personal.

I think it's also a case of choosing your audience, some things are just never going to go down well,

e.g. I disagree with wearing fur or leather and would never do either but if I were to be telling people they are wrong for doing so I would make a lot of enemies very quickly!

I have my views and and other people have theirs and that is fair enough.

Keeping my views to myself and choosing to not argue them does not make my opinions and less valid it simply means I am choosing not to argue about it, everyone has the right to think and feel what they wish, be it right or wrong.

I do feel that you came across badly at some points of the breeding debate as did a lot of other people, it's sometimes a case of learning to walk away and ignore what is being said, getting dragged into a long battle is never good and does nothing to help anyone.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> LOL...Is that your way of accepting an apology? :lol::lol:


Ooooopppps me being abrupt again, and too serious lol.....It wasn't aimed at Cat Crazy though...can't remember her posting on that thread....


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> So true..
> Im very opinionated but even i have to hold back sometimes. After all, the world doesn't revolve around me and my opinions dont always mean they are the right opinions. I guess especially when it's the written word we have to take into account how easily things can be misinterpreted too as there's no facial expressions or tone of voice to go by. I think it's usually how something is said and not what is said that matters most and shows the most respect.


Completely agree and that is why things can get so heated on forums such as this, when you are basing your replies on written words only you do not see how the words are meant.

Mis-interpretation can be a dangerous thing!


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ooooopppps me being abrupt again, and too serious lol.....It wasn't aimed at Cat Crazy though...can't remember her posting on that thread....


Lol don't worry about it I understood what you meant 

I didn't post on the thread, I avoid the one's that end up in arguments!

I do have my opinions on the the subject but joining a slanging match and trying to shout them out isn't my style so would rather not be involved in such things.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ooooopppps me being abrupt again, and too serious lol.....It wasn't aimed at Cat Crazy though...can't remember her posting on that thread....


LOL..Ya little bugger   :001_tt2:



Cat_Crazy said:


> Completely agree and that is why things can get so heated on forums such as this, when you are basing your replies on written words only you do not see how the words are meant.
> 
> Mis-interpretation can be a dangerous thing!


Totally agree.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Not a problem at all, did not see it as a dig.
> 
> I did not want my post to come across as trying to argue or bring the OP poster down, I respect the views of Tilly very much and share an awful lot of them so can see where she is coming from but I have learnt that some battles you cannot win and so you have to live and let live.


Thank you! 

Maybe I am a bit of a preacher.... But the animals don't have a voice, if people didn't speak up in the past....Animal welfare would have never improved!

And yes, you are right the breeding section should be a no go zone for me! As it is a battle that cannot be won on a forum!


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Just to change the subject a little onto a happier note.

I just held my hamster for a whole 20 minutes and put him back in his cage without being bitten for the first time ever   

Very proud of myself and him of course!


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Just to change the subject a little onto a happier note.
> 
> I just held my hamster for a whole 20 minutes and put him back in his cage without being bitten for the first time ever
> 
> Very proud of myself and him of course!


Nice to see your bonding with your hamster! 

Whats his name?


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Tilly I just wanted to say that I dont know how I was coming across as being a bullie but Im sorry if I upseted you, I was just confused as to way you were tarring everyone with the same brush 

Cat Crazy that must feel good, I heared something about you getting a new furry member. I have to say Hamsters rule.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> And yes, you are right the breeding section should be a no go zone for me! As it is a battle that cannot be won on a forum!


I think alot of us steer clear of the breeding section...lol...Life's too short to spend it battling all the time. xxxx  



Cat_Crazy said:


> Just to change the subject a little onto a happier note.
> 
> I just held my hamster for a whole 20 minutes and put him back in his cage without being bitten for the first time ever
> 
> Very proud of myself and him of course!


Ahh bless....lucky you. They dont usually stay still that long. xxx


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Maybe I am a bit of a preacher.... But the animals don't have a voice, if people didn't speak up in the past....Animal welfare would have never improved!
> 
> And yes, you are right the breeding section should be a no go zone for me! As it is a battle that cannot be won on a forum!


I don't think you are a preacher at all you simply have strong views as do a lot of people on this forum, there is nothing wrong with that at all.

I see what you are saying about animal welfare and we do need to continue working towards this, I actually work in rescue so completely understand where you are coming from in this sense.

It's simply about respect and realising when you are fighting a lost cause, I have dealt with members of the public that have severely abused and neglected animals in the past and as much as I want to scream and shout at them for what they have done it won't get me anywhere and they won't heed a word of it, the best I can do is help the animal overcome what has happened and move on.

The world is not perfect but it's the only one we have.


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Nice to see your bonding with your hamster!
> 
> Whats his name?


His name is Bailey although seriously considering changing it to Vlad as he is a nipper lol


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> I think alot of us steer clear of the breeding section...lol...Life's too short to spend it battling all the time. xxxx
> 
> Ahh bless....lucky you. They dont usually stay still that long. xxx


Thank you 

He does like being handled and I don't mean holding him still lol he's been running up and down my arm whilst I am trying to type lol but normally he finds my fingers too tasty to resist lol


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

So, back on topic....

Why do people consider animals who are pets, have the gift of not being hunted, whereas a feral animal is? Surely both lives are just as worthy of not feeling the horror,stress, pain of being hunted.

Most pet owners would be outraged if their pet was shot (even if "humanly") or ripped to death by dogs. But its ok for wildlife?

Whats the difference? A collar round the neck and human ownership?


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> So, back on topic....
> 
> Why do people consider animals who are pets, have the gift of not being hunted, whereas a feral animal is? Surely both lives are just as worthy of not feeling the horror,stress, pain of being hunted.
> 
> ...


Something like that...

It's like when someone dies in the world and hear it on the news. You'll say 'oh how sad' or a bit more if you really liked the person but generally you tend to ignore it and move on. Same goes for wildlife/livestock etc.

I think we as a public (the majority) have been desensitised against hunting etc. Sure there was that uproar about fox hunting a few years back but if you ask people about it now they'll just say "oh that's bad I'm glad they banned it'. If you tell them a fox had been hunted they'll be angry but they won't be AS angry.

I hope you get what I'm saying, I'm not too good at explaining this.

With our pets we know them and we love them. If our family member died we be devastated, it's the same with our pets.

Perhaps we as human are selfish and only really care about those close to us


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> So, back on topic....
> 
> Why do people consider animals who are pets, have the gift of not being hunted, whereas a feral animal is? Surely both lives are just as worthy of not feeling the horror,stress, pain of being hunted.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's as black and white as that.

A domesticated animal has no more right to live then a wild animal but we cannot argue the food chain.

I feed a large collony of feral cats and some people will argue that they disminish wildlife, which in all fairness they do as they hunt rodents and birds, but that's nature and it's the way the world works so there is nothing I can do to stop it.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> So, back on topic....
> 
> Why do people consider animals who are pets, have the gift of not being hunted, whereas a feral animal is? Surely both lives are just as worthy of not feeling the horror,stress, pain of being hunted.
> 
> ...


As far as im concerned, when you put it like that...NOTHING. I cant stand to see animals killed in the wild by other animals either. I find it too upsetting. Maybe it's our culture where we bond with animals so much i.e pets that makes it hard for me to see anything killed.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Perhaps we as human are selfish and only really care about those close to us


Nail...hammer...head unfortunately


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

I agree it does tend to be our culture.

It's not nice to think of anything being killed but with our own pets we form an attachment and so can stop (or at least attempt to stop) this from happening.

Wildlife do not have the same privalidges and rights as domesticated pets so there is little we can do to prevent a wild animal from killing another wild animal, we sometimes have to accept it is part of life however unpleasant.


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Nail...hammer...head unfortunately


Maybe it is selfishness but I also see it as helplessness.

I don't like that fact that the feral collony I feed by my home kills a lot of wildlife but what can I do to stop this, stop feeding them and let them die??

It is nature and the food chain continues regardless of human intervention.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> I agree it does tend to be our culture.
> 
> It's not nice to think of anything being killed but with our own pets we form an attachment and so can stop (or at least attempt to stop) this from happening.
> 
> Wildlife do not have the same privalidges and rights as domesticated pets so there is little we can do to prevent a wild animal from killing another wild animal, we sometimes have to accept it is part of life however unpleasant.


Totally agree.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> I don't think it's as black and white as that.
> 
> A domesticated animal has no more right to live then a wild animal but we cannot argue the food chain.
> 
> I feed a large collony of feral cats and some people will argue that they disminish wildlife, which in all fairness they do as they hunt rodents and birds, but that's nature and it's the way the world works so there is nothing I can do to stop it.


I agree, God created the food chain....which is horrific...

The difference is wild animals would starve to death, so have to, to survive.

But us humans, know better (or at least should) and can live without meat easily.....

If God exists.....you bet I will be having a word with him about his cruel FOOD CHAIN!!!! Got the speech aready planned....

I was brought up Catholic, but sway towards Buddhism now!


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Nail...hammer...head unfortunately


I dont think that goes for everyone. I think there are some owners out there of whatever animal that bend over backwards for their pet so that pet can have the best life possible.

I have to say when it comes to my cats they get thier food without question, treats and toys without question and any vet appointments with question to how much it costs. People might say I am selfish with my other possesions but thats because I dont trust people enough to take care of my things.

Anyways I got to round up the cats, get the litter box in my room, apparently do the pile of dishes  and hit the sack if their is any room left for me on the bed.

Night people.


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I agree, God created the food chain....which is horrific...
> 
> The difference is wild animals would starve to death, so have to, to survive.
> 
> ...


Not always true.

The feral cats I feed are indeed wild but do not need to kill to survive, they are fed by myself and in general to not eat their kills but it is in their nature to hunt.

I don't think the food chain is horrific, long before we had a lot of the methods and foods we have today many species would not have survived without eating another.

I am vegetarian but that is my choice I don't believe that everyone should have to make the same choice it's a matter of personal opinion.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> If God exists.....you bet I will be having a word with him about his cruel FOOD CHAIN!!!! Got the speech aready planned....
> 
> !


Oh dear...He's in for it.  



Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I dont think that goes for everyone. I think there are some owners out there of whatever animal that bend over backwards for their pet so that pet can have the best life possible.
> 
> I have to say when it comes to my cats they get thier food without question, treats and toys without question and any vet appointments with question to how much it costs. People might say I am selfish with my other possesions but thats because I dont trust people enough to take care of my things.
> 
> ...


I agree 
Nite nite...xxxx


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I dont think that goes for everyone. I think there are some owners out there of whatever animal that bend over backwards for their pet so that pet can have the best life possible.
> 
> I have to say when it comes to my cats they get thier food without question, treats and toys without question and any vet appointments with question to how much it costs. People might say I am selfish with my other possesions but thats because I dont trust people enough to take care of my things.
> 
> ...


Nite nite!


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I dont think that goes for everyone. I think there are some owners out there of whatever animal that bend over backwards for their pet so that pet can have the best life possible.
> 
> I have to say when it comes to my cats they get thier food without question, treats and toys without question and any vet appointments with question to how much it costs. People might say I am selfish with my other possesions but thats because I dont trust people enough to take care of my things.
> 
> ...


Good post and goodnight xx


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Well I suppose I should go to bed soon, my girlfriend would kill me if she knew I was still on here lol !

My children are awake in 2 hours time ready for school 

I assume that you are in the USA ??


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Well I suppose I should go to bed soon, my girlfriend would kill me if she knew I was still on here lol !
> 
> My children are awake in 2 hours time ready for school
> 
> I assume that you are in the USA ??


Nope me and Tillysdream are in the UK.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Well I suppose I should go to bed soon, my girlfriend would kill me if she knew I was still on here lol !
> 
> My children are awake in 2 hours time ready for school
> 
> I assume that you are in the USA ??


Nope, the UK 

I can't sleep some nights, and got a few days off work to take delivery of my christmas shopping...First year that I have done it online 

Eek, your gonna be shatterd tomorrow! Are you a guy? Cos, I always thought you were female? Though I am aware, you could be just in a same sex couple....


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks guys.

Have a good night too.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Oh dear...He's in for it.


I missed this post of yours earlier, cheeky chops!

But yes, I will have him running scared!


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Nope me and Tillysdream are in the UK.


Lol you are mad to be awake at this time !!

I am terrible for sleeping I seem to toss and turn all night until one of the kids wakes me up so rather than lie in bed it makes sense to chat on here instead lol


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Nope, the UK
> 
> I can't sleep some nights, and got a few days off work to take delivery of my christmas shopping...First year that I have done it online
> 
> Eek, your gonna be shatterd tomorrow! Are you a guy? Cos, I always thought you were female? Though I am aware, you could be just in a same sex couple....


I will be exhausted as always lol, used to grumpy mornings by now.

Also I am female, common mistake most people make when I say girlfriend


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Lol you are mad to be awake at this time !!
> 
> I am terrible for sleeping I seem to toss and turn all night until one of the kids wakes me up so rather than lie in bed it makes sense to chat on here instead lol


Im mad full stop...lol..
Im an insomniac so i dont get a choice. Thank heavens for the forum..lol..


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> I will be exhausted as always lol, used to grumpy mornings by now.
> 
> Also I am female, common mistake most people make when I say girlfriend


I don't have strong views on same sex couples, you will be glad to hear....


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I don't have strong views on same sex couples, you will be glad to hear....


Ha ha lol, good to hear because that's one thing I WILL argue and defend lol. 

I don't tell anyone how to live their life so I expect people to let me live mine how I see fit, after all i'm not hurting anyone.


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Im mad full stop...lol..
> Im an insomniac so i dont get a choice. Thank heavens for the forum..lol..


I know lol !!

I dread to think of the trouble you would be getting into if if it wasn't for the forum


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Ha ha lol, good to hear because that's one thing I WILL argue and defend lol.
> 
> I don't tell anyone how to live their life so I expect people to let me live mine how I see fit, after all i'm not hurting anyone.


So true...Totally agree.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> I know lol !!
> 
> I dread to think of the trouble you would be getting into if if it wasn't for the forum


LOL...Me?  Im a good girl.


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> LOL...Me?  Im a good girl.


Oh I'm sure you are but given the right encouragement you'll be as naughty as the rest of us lol


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Oh I'm sure you are but given the right encouragement you'll be as naughty as the rest of us lol


LOL...Ok you got me there.


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Right well off to bed, night all and have fun !!


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Right well off to bed, night all and have fun !!


Nite nite...xxxx


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Right well off to bed, night all and have fun !!


Nite, nite! Thanks for the debate....your good!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Took me forever to catch up on this thread. Good posts. I do eat meat, sorry Tillysdream. But I can't even kill a mouse in the house the cats usually chase it into the cupboard and I (okay sometimes my daughter will come over) catch it in a container and take it back to the field. Sometimes though bad things happen. Nature can be cruel, but I don't agree with purposely letting any of my pets hunt. We have coyotes, owls , eagles etc all in my neighbourhood and they do hunt that is how they survive not nice to watch so I don't....Jill


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

jaxx said:


> I have the greatest respect for other people's opinions and I believe that everyone should have a say. Given what's been happening with this forum recently I've been reluctant to give my opinion on various subjects that will stir peoples passions. But I do have an opinion on this one so what I say here is only my opinion and I don't want people to believe that it is what I think other people should believe either. Each to their own. If I'm reported and banned, so be it.
> 
> I personally hate fox hunting as well as hare coursing, I totally disagree with them because the animals are put through sheer terror before being ripped apart by dogs. But I grew up in a shooting family. Don't get me wrong, we're certainly not part of the landed gentry etc but my dad has always enjoyed shooting. I was born in Australia and we lived in a pretty remote area of the north west so hunting was a big thing up there. When we came back to England dad brought his shooting passion home with him. He used to take me shooting with him. Not every time was actually game shooting, it was mostly clay pigeon but he did do some rabbit and pigeon shooting. We did have a gun dog, an English springer spaniel and she was also our family pet. Whenever dad did shoot an animal it was always a good clean shot. Our dog was only ever used to retrieve, never to hunt herself. All rabbits and pigeons that dad did shoot were cooked and eaten by the whole family.
> 
> ...


This was a good post, its easier to eat meat when its all prepared for you. I would probably not eat meat if I had to catch it myself...Jill


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> Took me forever to catch up on this thread. Good posts. I do eat meat, sorry Tillysdream. But I can't even kill a mouse in the house the cats usually chase it into the cupboard and I (okay sometimes my daughter will come over) catch it in a container and take it back to the field. Sometimes though bad things happen. Nature can be cruel, but I don't agree with purposely letting any of my pets hunt. We have coyotes, owls , eagles etc all in my neighbourhood and they do hunt that is how they survive not nice to watch so I don't....Jill


Good post Jill! x

This will make you laugh, my parents are meat eaters (love them to pieces) and for my birthday this year they bought me £100 worth of butcher meat for my freezer!  My mothers answer when I politely raised an objection.... "you do not eat properly and look a bit thin and pale!!!!!"


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> This was a good post, its easier to eat meat when its all prepared for you. I would probably not eat meat if I had to catch it myself...Jill


So true Jill, i totally agree as i just couldn't kill an animal.......except a fish. Dont really know why fish seems more acceptable to me to be honest as it's still a living creature.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Good post Jill! x
> 
> This will make you laugh, my parents are meat eaters (love them to pieces) and for my birthday this year they bought me £100 worth of butcher meat for my freezer!  My mothers answer when I politely raised an objection.... "you do not eat properly and look a bit thin and pale!!!!!"


LOL...What did you do with the meat?


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> Good post Jill! x
> 
> This will make you laugh, my parents are meat eaters (love them to pieces) and for my birthday this year they bought me £100 worth of butcher meat for my freezer!  My mothers answer when I politely raised an objection.... "you do not eat properly and look a bit thin and pale!!!!!"


LOL next time use blush and wear real baggy clothes. Then she'll probably ask if your expecting...LOL That would be hard though getting meat when you don't eat it. gotta love moms though they never stop worrying...Jill


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> So true Jill, i totally agree as i just couldn't kill an animal.......except a fish. Dont really know why fish seems more acceptable to me to be honest as it's still a living creature.


My son Keith fish's but he's strictly catch and release he doesn't like the prep work and I sure a h won't do it...Jill


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> LOL...What did you do with the meat?


Its still in my brand new freezer, and I feel dirty....My sister keeps saying she is coming to pick it up! I wouldn't throw it out (though tempted to). My mum and dad spent their hard earned money on it, and little animals lost their lives for that meat...


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Have you guys noticed this was a good debate without going to off topic. I say very well done and everyone is still friends. Makes me feel all warm...Jill


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> LOL next time use blush and wear real baggy clothes. Then she'll probably ask if your expecting...LOL That would be hard though getting meat when you don't eat it. gotta love moms though they never stop worrying...Jill


Exactly, Mum and Dad were coming from a good place!

I wear loads of blush and make-up :blushing: and go to sun beds lol... pale? And a size 10...hardly skinny lol.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> Have you guys noticed this was a good debate without going to off topic. I say very well done and everyone is still friends. Makes me feel all warm...Jill


AND.... I got a friendship request from Cat Crazy!   I am truely chuffed! x


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> My son Keith fish's but he's strictly catch and release he doesn't like the prep work and I sure a h won't do it...Jill


Yeah that's true Jill..Im not sure how or if i could prepare the fish. Hopefully i'll have a friend with me at the time...lol..xxx  



tillysdream said:


> Its still in my brand new freezer, and I feel dirty....My sister keeps saying she is coming to pick it up! I wouldn't throw it out (though tempted to). My mum and dad spent their hard earned money on it, and little animals lost their lives for that meat...


Very true and at least you know the meat will get eaten. xxx  



canuckjill said:


> Have you guys noticed this was a good debate without going to off topic. I say very well done and everyone is still friends. Makes me feel all warm...Jill


So true Jill and i love debates like this where they remain respectful of others beliefs/views. Pretty impressive thread Tillysdream...You go girl...lol...xxxx


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> AND.... I got a friendship request from Cat Crazy!   I am truely chuffed! x


Even better...She was lovely too.


----------



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

I have not read all of this thread , so I will apologise I I have missed the plot. 

My personal view is a little strange, but while I believe that all life, including humans, is of equal worth, there is often a justifiable reason for killing an animal, for food, for protection or even sometimes for it's own good. 

What is not acceptable to me in any way, shape or form, is the killing of animals in the name of 'sport'. No matter how this is dressed up or even how humanely it is done, it still boils down to killing something for fun. 

To go back to the OP, yes you are extreme in your view but there is nothing wrong with that, it demonstrates passion for something you believe in, just as it would seem your protagonist has also. For everyone who has an extreme point of view there will be someone who has the opposite, but just as extreme view and you must accept that they have just as much right to express it as you do. How individuals may choose to go about that expression though is a whole other debate.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> I have not read all of this thread, so I will apologise I I have missed the plot.
> 
> My personal view is a little strange, but while I believe that all life, including humans, is of equal worth, there is often a justifiable reason for killing an animal, for food, for protection or even sometimes for it's own good.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting your take on things! And welcome to the forum!


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Oh ive got a question Tillysdream.....How do you feel about vermin (rats, etc) being killed to prevent diseases to humans?


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Oh ive got a question Tillysdream.....How do you feel about vermin (rats, etc) being killed to prevent diseases to humans?


wow You come up with hard ones Ony, for myself I think sometimes hard choices have to be made and if you don't have enough natural predators then you have to do what is necessary for the situation...Jill


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Oh ive got a question Tillysdream.....How do you feel about vermin (rats, etc) being killed to prevent diseases to humans?


Very good question Ony! Well, I would advocate using humane traps and then releasing them in the countryside. Though farmers would be up in arms about that, and they would they cruelly poison/trap them...

Its something I have thought about many times....There is no true answer to the problem...How would I feel if I had rats in my house? I would get human traps and release them in the contryside.....  Though realise this could not be done by everyone, as it would have a bad impact.....


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> wow You come up with hard ones Ony, for myself I think sometimes hard choices have to be made and if you don't have enough natural predators then you have to do what is necessary for the situation...Jill


LOL, Jill...Trust me to think up something else. 
I agree and my personal opinion is we would need to eliminate them (sounded better than kill...lol).



tillysdream said:


> Very good question Ony! Well, I would advocate using humane traps and then releasing them in the countryside. Though farmers would be up in arms about that, and they would they cruelly poison/trap them...
> 
> Its something I have thought about many times....There is no true answer to the problem...How would I feel if I had rats in my house? I would get human traps and release them in the contryside.....  Though realise this could not be done by everyone, as it would have a bad impact.....


Ah but you are talking a few rats maybe...Im talking mass population of rats like in the times of the plague. 
Where dumping a few in the countryside wouldn't be an option. We are talking over poulation in my hypathetical scenario.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Maybe rats could be collected via humane traps then overdosed with sedative on mass when collected.... Rather than painful poison and sprung traps that sometimes don't kill them outright!
That would still work in a plague situation....

Though would rather they lived than humans....Jesus said the meek will inherit the earth....I believe that to be innocent animals....They won't ruin the earth the way humans have!


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Maybe rats could be collected via humane traps then overdosed with sedative.... Rather than painful poison and sprung traps that sometimes don't kill them outright!
> 
> Though would rather they lived! lol


Nope, too time consuming ...We are talking mass population of the things and our lives depend on it?


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> LOL, Jill...Trust me to think up something else.
> I agree and my personal opinion is we would need to eliminate them (sounded better than kill...lol).
> 
> Ah but you are talking a few rats maybe...Im talking mass population of rats like in the times of the plague.
> Where dumping a few in the countryside wouldn't be an option. We are talking over poulation in my hypathetical scenario.


I'm lucky I live in a rat free province, but I don't like to think how we got that way! In all honesty we do get probably a dozen clusters found each year but we are a big province as in area. We have a rat patrol that actually gets called out when there is a sighting and they also do random checks at the borders sounds funny doesn't it. ...Jill


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Your forgeting, I worked in the veterinary field for years where animals are pts.....


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> I'm lucky I live in a rat free province, but I don't like to think how we got that way! In all honesty we do get probably a dozen clusters found each year but we are a big province as in area. We have a rat patrol that actually gets called out when there is a sighting and they also do random checks at the borders sounds funny doesn't it. ...Jill


LOL...Yeah we have rat control too but that is my question to someone who DOESN'T think any animal should ever be killed.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Your forgeting, I worked in the veterinary field for years where animals are pts.....


Stop tripping me up woman...lol  :001_tt2:


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Nope, too time consuming ...We are talking mass population of the things and our lives depend on it?


Then humans die....and the meek inherit the earth!


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Then humans die....and the meek inherit the earth!


LOL...Trust you :lol::lol:


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

When there were 5 rats found in Calgary it made headline news all over the province...Jill


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> When there were 5 rats found in Calgary it made headline news all over the province...Jill


Same here, my town doesn't have a rat problem either! But there are lots of people that keep them as pets!


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> Same here, my town doesn't have a rat problem either! But there are lots of people that keep them as pets!


Illegal to own a pet rat in Alberta...Jill


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> LOL...Trust you :lol::lol:


My cat was pts.... There are circumstances where euthanasia is permitted to save suffering.... Sort of side tracking here...Sorry!


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> My cat was pts.... There are circumstances where euthanasia is permitted to save suffering.... Sort of side tracking here...Sorry!


Ah but that is an animal being killed who is clearly not in good health and to prevent further suffering. That is understandable and the humane/kindess thing to do. 
Same doesn't apply to healthy, thriving rats who are taking over and putting human life at risk.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> Illegal to own a pet rat in Alberta...Jill


Ah..... pity lol!  Though understand why...if owners release them, could cause a problem....


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Euthanasia is one of the hardest decisions to make. So sorry about your cat
Hugs Jill


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Ah but that is an animal being killed who is clearly not in good health and to prevent further suffering. That is understandable and the humane/kindess thing to do.
> Same doesn't apply to healthy, thriving rats who are taking over and putting human life at risk.


I am sure, we could overdose them with sedative instead of a poison...same outcome, no suffering? But that would cost more money....But it would be the ethical way to go....


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> Euthanasia is one of the hardest decisions to make. So sorry about your cat
> Hugs Jill


Thank you. She was nearly 21...So a long life she had lived....Horrible ending to her little life, but thats a whole other story!


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Something like that...
> 
> It's like when someone dies in the world and hear it on the news. You'll say 'oh how sad' or a bit more if you really liked the person but generally you tend to ignore it and move on. Same goes for wildlife/livestock etc.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure that could be considered selfish. If each of us tried to care about everything as much as we care about our own loved ones, we'd all go crazy. Sure it's good to have a cause, and be passionate about things like animal welfare. But not to the point that if affects our own mental health.

Our first responsibility is to those closest to our heart, IMO.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I am sure, we could overdose them with sedative instead of a poison...same outcome, no suffering? But that would cost more money....But it would be the ethical way to go....


So do we agree they can be killed then? Even if they are healthy, so long as we do it humanely for the sake of the human race?


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> So do we agree they can be killed then? Even if they are healthy, so long as we do it humanely for the sake of the human race?


Nope, I would rather see the meek (animals) inherit the earth and the human race die out... The only real way the earth will survive imo.

Realistically, people will always kill what they consider "pests" and while I don't agree, long live ALL living things...If its gonna be done, at the very least do it humanely......

WE are the biggest PESTS on this earth.....


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Nope, I would rather see the meek (animals) inherit the earth and the human race die out... The only real way the earth will survive imo.
> 
> Realistically, people will always kill what they consider "pests" and while I don't agree, long live ALL living things...If its gonna be done, at the very least do it humanely......


Fair play.


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Well I tried to sleep and failed so i'm back 

What weird and wonderful subject are we debating now lol


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Well I tried to sleep and failed so i'm back
> 
> What weird and wonderful subject are we debating now lol


LOL...Welcome back.  
We have moved on and were debating whether rats for example, should be killed to prevent diseases to the human race.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Well I tried to sleep and failed so i'm back
> 
> What weird and wonderful subject are we debating now lol


Welcome back!  You are entering the twilight zone....


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

And I am the only one thats still up at a reasonable time LOL...Jill


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> LOL...Welcome back.
> We have moved on and were debating whether rats for example, should be killed to prevent diseases to the human race.


Lol trust you lot to get onto subjects like this.

Well I like rats, as in tame ones but personally would have no problem calling pest control if I found them in my garden.

Wouldn't want to poison them myself but I also wouldn't be leaving them there.

Just reading back and having a giggle at some of the other responses


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

lorilu said:


> I'm not sure that could be considered selfish. If each of us tried to care about everything as much as we care about our own loved ones, we'd all go crazy. Sure it's good to have a cause, and be passionate about things like animal welfare. But not to the point that if affects our own mental health.
> 
> Our first responsibility is to those closest to our heart, IMO.


I agree in part, with you here!


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> And I am the only one thats still up at a reasonable time LOL...Jill


Yep....lol..  



Cat_Crazy said:


> Lol trust you lot to get onto subjects like this.
> 
> Well I like rats, as in tame ones but personally would have no problem calling pest control if I found them in my garden.
> 
> ...


LOL...Yeah we are having banter with it too. Makes for a better debate.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> And I am the only one thats still up at a reasonable time LOL...Jill


It looks like it lol. Its 5.45am here!  What time is it where you are Jill?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

it's only 10:45 pm here its still Monday...Jill


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Welcome back!  You are entering the twilight zone....


Nope it's almost morning in my house lol

My 5 year old wakes up at 6am on the dot every morning, I could set my alarm by him most days so it won't be long till I hear footsteps and then the day begins 

It's so annoying i'm tired but can't nod off.
I had just settled into bed when I suddenly started thinking about the cat's vaccinations as I thought one was due soon.

Had to get up and check the date to find it had another 6 weeks yet, decided I should write it in my diary so a 20 minute search for the diary showed that it was already in there lol

Then I had to check the dates for the other 5 cats and make sure they were in the diary as well.

This led me to double check the flea and worming dates as I'm going the vets in the morning so could pick some up if due soon but it wasn't lol

My mind is always too full to sleep lol


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Nope it's almost morning in my house lol
> 
> My 5 year old wakes up at 6am on the dot every morning, I could set my alarm by him most days so it won't be long till I hear footsteps and then the day begins
> 
> ...


Me too, if I am in bed and something pops into my mind...I have to get up a check right away... It bugs me otherwise....


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Ok, I am deffo logging off to mop the floors and jump in the bath for a soak!

x x x


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Me too, if I am in bed and something pops into my mind...I have to get up a check right away... It bugs me otherwise....


Yep I can't settle till I have checked it.

I always find it so hard to get asleep but try and not take the sleeping tablets when I have the school run as I wake up really groggy.

Strange thing is once I get asleep I could sleep for a week.


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, I am deffo logging off to mop the floors and jump in the bath for a soak!
> 
> x x x


Lol well enjoy your bath then, speak soon !


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Strange thing is once I get asleep I could sleep for a week.


Me too!


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Enjoy your bath...Jill


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Here comes the footsteps as expected 

He comes down every morning and the first thing to leave his mouth .........

'is it breakfast time yet' 

You would think he was never fed but how hungry he always is.

Right well off I go to start the day, sure i'll be back on once the little one's have been dropped off.

xxxxx


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, I am deffo logging off to mop the floors and jump in the bath for a soak!
> 
> x x x


Yep think i might try get some sleep....TRY being the operative word. Really enjoyed the debate....xxxx  



Cat_Crazy said:


> Yep I can't settle till I have checked it.
> 
> I always find it so hard to get asleep but try and not take the sleeping tablets when I have the school run as I wake up really groggy.
> 
> Strange thing is once I get asleep I could sleep for a week.


I hope you manage to grab a nap at least at some point after the school run. Thanks for the debate tonight, it was great....xxxx  

Thanks Jill....loves ya loads...thoroughly enjoyed tonight...xxxx


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Give a hug for me I miss my grandson living here...Jill


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Night Ony its been a good one.. nite all...Jill


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> The sad thing is it's not hard to train a dog not to kill wild life. Mine although working dog's were trained from day one not to chace or kill wildlife even my pup doesn't take any notice of rabbit's. Can't say the same for oh's jrt though.
> My dog's been to work this morning pushing pheasant's back away from the road and didn't touch or scare any wildlife. I do see a lot of people letting thier dog's chase the bird's, then if they injure the bird they leave the poor thing to suffer. lucky my lab is trained to find injured or shot bird's to me. So yes although i do work my dog's i agree it is cruel to let dog's kill wildlife for the sake of itut:. All the bird's on my shoot are taken home and eaten. and for the first time this season some are given to a local old people's home


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## marion..d (Nov 12, 2008)

ive just read all 17 pages of this, brilliant to see that it didnt get personal, thats how it should be...


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm not a veggie anymore (i was for 9 years!), and i do eat meat, I do wear leather shoes and i have killed animals .

I like to know where my meat is coming from. For that reason I use my local butcher, who is supplied with meat only from local farms that use our local abboitoire (sounding a bit like leage of gentleman here arent i ). I will also buy meat from our farmers markets too, where i know the meat has been ethically and responsibly raised.

I will also eat rabbit, pidgeon, grouse, pheasant, partridge etc which has been hunted. I also like freshly line caught fish from friends who are fishermen too.

My opinion on the matter is that providing the animal is dispatched quickly, then i would rather eat the meat of an animal that has lived a life of freedom in its natural environment than buy some intensively reared drug filled crap from a supermarket.


I do think that every animal has a right to a life, equally every animal has a right to eat. Those that keep snakes, spiders and lizards often have to feed live food (crickets etc), and some choose to dispatch their own bred rodents. Again if i had snakes (you would need a big enough snake or enough of them to warrent breeding and keeping your own rodents), i would probably go down this route. I would rather the mice be bred by me with loce and care, living a happy life, than being intensively reared in god knows what conditions. 

My dogs and cats get raw meat as part of their diet (my cats are almost exclusively fed raw), and i buy their meat from the same places i buy mine.

Enviromentally this also has an impact - my carbon footprint for meat must be greatly reduced as i dont buy it from supermarkets who import it from all over the country and abroad.

I am a veterinary nurse and also have a hnd in animal science. At my college we kept various reptiles, birds of prey and carnivores along with the more "cuter" pets and rodents. I have dispatched rodents for feeding, and i have also dispatched a critically injured rabbit i found by the side of the road. 


As for the cats. Well... Coming from many years in rescue now, I am very much of the strong opinion that pet cats (not talking about shows cats, or isolated regions) should be neutered and speyed as soon as possible. I will help out with accidental litters, but there really shouldnt be that many of them. I very much dislike people who plan to breed their pet cats, just because they want to, its irresponsible, and its people like me who have to pick up the pieces. 

I am helping a school mum at the moment who bought 2 femal kittens in early summer. Both kittens are now heavily pregnant, and one of them is absoloutly tiny. They will be mothers at just 7months old! Unfortunatly people dont realise the risks they take with letting unspeyed kittens out of the house, not every cat waits until its a year old before a first call, and these poor kittens are likely to have complicated deliverys. If i had known about it earlier, i would have suggested she had them speyed, as it is, i found out yesterday and the cats are only a matter of days away from delivery. I will help out where i can, but its totally uneccessary for these kittens even to have been concieved. :cursing:. She rescued these kittens from a shoebox by the side of the road, and now has the potential of having 18 (if they had 9 each!) more babies who could easily produce 162 more on first litters which could produce 1458 etc etc etc... so uneccessary and bloody wrong! 

My cats are all girls and all indoor cats. I choose that life for them because i couldnt bear to love on to the roads, to idiots with air-rifles, dogs or to thieves. I also do not want my cats hunting the birds that visit my garden. They do accompany me into the garden on occasions and have caught the occasional moth or butterfly (and one girl likes to bring me live wasps), but thats as far as their predatory instincts are allowed to go.

Billy has caught rats. 4 now! The rats are almost as big as him, but being a terrier at heart if he finds one in the woods he will hunt it. He's never shown any interest in any other wildlife - but he will take a rat if he sees one.


----------



## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I think each to their own really.
> 
> Who decides who is a 'better' animal lover?
> 
> ...


Couldn't have put it better myself. I couldn't hunt or hurt an animal myself but working dogs are working dogs and that's what they are bred for whether we like it or not and to get at one person on this forum when loads of people do this is below the belt and bound to stir up trouble in my opinon.

It doesn't mean you aren't an animal lover and lets face it us animal lovers can't agree on everything. There are some things that I don't agree with but we have to live and let live.


----------



## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Just to change the subject a little onto a happier note.
> 
> I just held my hamster for a whole 20 minutes and put him back in his cage without being bitten for the first time ever
> 
> Very proud of myself and him of course!


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

marion..d said:


> ive just read all 17 pages of this, brilliant to see that it didnt get personal, thats how it should be...


Same here Marion - and yes its nice to see a good debate without it getting nasty and then being locked/deleted - nice one you guys!


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I don't have a problem with hunting provided whatever is caught is used for food.So if i did have a dog that could hunt in a proper manner then i wouldn't have a problem.*


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

I have been involved in the farming/shooting fraternity since my young teens, very many years ago. While for the last 30 years I have never personally killed any healthy living creature ( well fleas and ticks :blushing I have been involved in the lives and deaths of many
After observation of people and creatures in this environment, I truly believe that it is the quality of life which is important above all else.
Some of the cruelty that I have seen done to living beings, beggars belief sometimes.
I feel that my involvement can make a difference to the lives of the few creatures that are in my care, whether that be dog, pig or the pheasants I now care for.



tillysdream said:


> I am sure, we could overdose them with sedative instead of a poison...same outcome, no suffering? But that would cost more money....But it would be the ethical way to go....





tillysdream said:


> Nope, I would rather see the meek (animals) inherit the earth and the human race die out... The only real way the earth will survive imo.
> 
> Realistically, people will always kill what they consider "pests" and while I don't agree, long live ALL living things...If its gonna be done, at the very least do it humanely......
> 
> WE are the biggest PESTS on this earth.....


A terrier would be much more humane than all other methods used on these unfortunate creatures.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

rona said:


> I have been involved in the farming/shooting fraternity since my young teens, very many years ago. While for the last 30 years I have never personally killed any healthy living creature ( well fleas and ticks :blushing I have been involved in the lives and deaths of many
> After observation of people and creatures in this environment, I truly believe that it is the quality of life which is important above all else.
> Some of the cruelty that I have seen done to living beings, beggars belief sometimes.
> I feel that my involvement can make a difference to the lives of the few creatures that are in my care, whether that be dog, pig or the pheasants I now care for.
> ...


Can't say I like the idea of a terrier killing them.


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Can't say I like the idea of a terrier killing them.


No but what's the alternative?
Not your ideal but a workable alternative that is quicker than a terrier?


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

rona said:


> No but what's the alternative?
> Not your ideal but a workable alternative that is quicker than a terrier?


I don't have an answer for you! 

You are right however, my way will never be used


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Can't say I like the idea of a terrier killing them.


i dont like the thought of it either... but do think if they are trained to do it properly it is a quick death for them.

my terrier has no pray drive thank goodness so i have never had a problem with her trying to go for other animals.


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I don't have an answer for you!
> 
> You are right however, my way will never be used


The trouble is the main way to control rats is poison, I have seen the effects of this, it's horrendous, the animal suffers unbearably.
I would much rather have a pack of terriers if at all possible


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

rona said:


> The trouble is the main way to control rats is poison, I have seen the effects of this, it's horrendous, the animal suffers unbearably.
> I would much rather have a pack of terriers if at all possible


I agree with this as more animals could die if they where poisoned and its a slow death for them, with terriers it should be quick and over with plus its natural really otherwise the world would get over populated.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

rona said:


> The trouble is the main way to control rats is poison, I have seen the effects of this, it's horrendous, the animal suffers unbearably.
> I would much rather have a pack of terriers if at all possible


I know, the poor rats all scream in agony with the poison. And its slow! The poor wee things.....

Maybe you are right about the terriers, but to me thats awful as well! But I acknowledge their death would be quicker, as long as they were killed outright and not injured and get away....


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

I am truly shocked by that and honestly think you should report it.


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> .
> 
> I have strong views, and good at debating....
> 
> ...





tillysdream said:


> I know, the poor rats all scream in agony with the poison. And its slow! The poor wee things.....
> 
> Maybe you are right about the terriers, but to me thats awful as well! But I acknowledge their death would be quicker, as long as they were killed outright and not injured and get away....


So have I managed in any small way, to convince you that an animal lover can also use dogs to hunt and kill?


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Totally agree with you DK and i hope this is dealt with by Mark or the Mods.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

rona said:


> So have I managed in any small way, to convince you that an animal lover can also use dogs to hunt and kill?


No,  still think my way is best....Though realise my way, will never be used 

Blood letting, and hunting just goes against my grain! Though, I acknowledge that a terrier would be a quicker death for them.....


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> No,  still think my way is best....Though realise my way, will never be used
> 
> Blood letting, and hunting just goes against my grain! Though, I acknowledge that a terrier would be a quicker death for them.....


Fair enough


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Totally agree with you DK and i hope this is dealt with by Mark or the Mods. .


I agree i wish the forum could be a happy place and no fights lol.


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Tiilysdream I don't even remember you mentioning any names....Jill


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

It happens all the time to me....


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> Tiilysdream I don't even remember you mentioning any names....Jill


Tillysdream has done nothing wrong Jill...seems some people think they can bully her via the rep system.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> Tiilysdream I don't even remember you mentioning any names....Jill


I didn't Jill, exactly......!!!!


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> I agree i wish the forum could be a happy place and no fights lol.


A happy place like it was at weekend. It was great at weekend on here. Lets not let the fun end. Now can we gently slide back onto topic?


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> It happens all the time to me....:


I know you have strong opinions but people should be adult enough to agree to disagree


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

danielled said:


> A happy place like it was at weekend. It was great at weekend on here. Lets not let the fun end. Now can we gently slide back onto topic?


i am on topic its drited onto this topic. I agree though.


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> i am on topic its drited onto this topic. I agree though.


It was great and I just don't want it to be spoilt that's all.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> A happy place like it was at weekend. It was great at weekend on here. Lets not let the fun end. Now can we gently slide back onto topic?


Its still a happy place Danielle! x Don't worry! Sometimes underhanded tactics need to be exposed!


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Its still a happy place Danielle! x Don't worry! Sometimes underhanded tactics need to be exposed!


Phew I was a bit worried there for a minute.


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> I know you have strong opinions but people should be adult enough to agree to disagree


I have never had a run in with Tillysdream, we have just had a short exchange of views from completely different sides of the fence with no insults on either side,


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Well Tillysdream, you must do ok as your green blobs are doing pretty good..lol...jill


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

danielled said:


> Phew I was a bit worried there for a minute.


So, would you like to comment on hunting/killing/eating animals Danielle? 

Whats your opinion?


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

rona said:


> I have never had a run in with Tillysdream, we have just had a short exchange of views from completely different sides of the fence with no insults on either side, and no bad rep or nasty pm's
> I don't understand the mentality of some on here


I agree with that its all abit pointless.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

rona said:


> I have never had a run in with Tillysdream, we have just had a short exchange of views from completely different sides of the fence with no insults on either side, and no bad rep or nasty pm's
> I don't understand the mentality of some on here


I agree Rona and you have always shown Tillysdream respect. It's ok for people to disagree, it's human nature but there are some on here who are very underhanded. 



canuckjill said:


> Well Tillysdream, you must do ok as your green blobs are doing pretty good..lol...jill


And they will mount up even more if i have anything to do with it Jill


----------



## JoWDC (Jan 11, 2009)

I will admit when i first started reading this thread i thought it was an underhanded dig at certain people on this forum. However, i realise that it is just purely through your strong convictions, Tillysdream, that you are standing by your love towards animals and abhorence of hunting and animals being killed rather than my original thought.

I hate it when the cats bring in presents - but it's only their natural instincts that they are reacting to but i couldn't keep them in all the time (it was part of the adoption from the RSPCA that i let them out anyway). 

I read a quote recently that said nobody should eat an animal that they wouldn't be able to kill and cook themselves (think it was a chef that said it). I couldn't kill an animal - but i don't think i could give up meat, even though i do have veggie days sometimes.


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> So, would you like to comment on hunting/killing/eating animals Danielle?
> 
> Whats your opinion?


I personaly don't agree with hunting animals and killing them. I gave my uncle my opinion on this exact topic and he had a go at me.


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

im veggie, try to be vegan as much as i can but still give my kids meat. they know where its from and still wanna eat it, if at any time they dont then obviously i will be happy and help them.

sometimes i think i should brought them up veggie but to be honest was scared they would miss out on nutrients (my health visitor told me that).


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I could never kill an animal but I do enjoy eating meat....perhaps if I had to kill my food it might be a different story though..... and the red repping for no reason is bang out of order imo....it needs to stop.


----------



## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

JoWDC said:


> I will admit when i first started reading this thread i thought it was an underhanded dig at certain people on this forum. However, i realise that it is just purely through your strong convictions, Tillysdream, that you are standing by your love towards animals and abhorence of hunting and animals being killed rather than my original thought.
> 
> I hate it when the cats bring in presents - but it's only their natural instincts that they are reacting to but i couldn't keep them in all the time (it was part of the adoption from the RSPCA that i let them out anyway).
> 
> I read a quote recently that said nobody should eat an animal that they wouldn't be able to kill and cook themselves (think it was a chef that said it). I couldn't kill an animal - but i don't think i could give up meat, even though i do have veggie days sometimes.


I am getting my own lamb this season purely so i can raise it then eat it... I am going to learn so much from this and be able to ensure my lamb has the most amazing life i can give it.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

rona said:


> I have never had a run in with Tillysdream, we have just had a short exchange of views from completely different sides of the fence with no insults on either side, and no bad rep or nasty pm's
> I don't understand the mentality of some on here


Like I said in my opening post...Some appear all sweetness and light on the forum...But pm's and comments on bad rep reveals their true side! 

And yes, we see things differently Rona, but you are always polite... I am the FIRST person to say my views on things are extreme and not everybodies cup of tea :001_huh:...Just sick of the underhanded comments, when I myself am above board with my posting and polite!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> ..I have strong views, and good at debating....
> 
> I don't believe in people using their dogs to hunt wildlife... As I believe all life is precious, what makes a pets life worth more than a wildlife life? A collar?
> 
> ...


No you are not alone in your views.

I cannot stand killing for the sake of it, in the name of sport.

We kill foxes because they take a chickens, if mice, rabbits or pigeons take some corn kill as it's a pest. We use any excuse to kill.

It's just a pity some animals don't humans are doing to much damage lets kill some of them to keep there numbers down.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> And yes, we see things differently Rona, but you are always polite... I am the FIRST person to say my views on things are extreme and not everybodies cup of tea :001_huh:...Just sick of the underhanded comments, when I myself am above board with my posting and polite!


If you ignore them they soon get bored.
Every time you bite it puts a big smile on their faces 
Are they really worth the bother?
I have worked my way around several people over the last year, it's not too difficult


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> No you are not alone in your views.
> 
> I cannot stand killing for the sake of it, in the name of sport.
> 
> ...


good post... totally agree


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> We kill foxes because they take a chickens, if mice, rabbits or pigeons take some corn kill as it's a pest. We use any excuse to kill.


OH's grandad owns a garden centre, rabbits eat his plants, he can't risk losing money to rabbits, the ones with mxy are killed but we try to release the healthy ones away in one of the paddocks far from the yard.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

rona said:


> If you ignore them they soon get bored.
> Every time you bite it puts a big smile on their faces
> Are they really worth the bother?
> I have worked my way around several people over the last year, it's not too difficult


You, of course, are correct! But sometimes its hard to do :mad2: x


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> You, of course, are correct! But sometimes its hard to do :mad2: x


You are a little more fiery than me


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> You, of course, are correct! But sometimes its hard to do :mad2: x


If you want a chat you know where I am. Like my teacher always said before she died I'm always here for you. Me thinks it is wrong to kill an animal.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> No you are not alone in your views.
> 
> I cannot stand killing for the sake of it, in the name of sport.
> 
> ...


And sometimes there are no excuses and innocent people and animals get killed....Jill


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

JoWDC said:


> I will admit when i first started reading this thread i thought it was an underhanded dig at certain people on this forum. However, i realise that it is just purely through your strong convictions, Tillysdream, that you are standing by your love towards animals and abhorence of hunting and animals being killed rather than my original thought.
> 
> I hate it when the cats bring in presents - but it's only their natural instincts that they are reacting to but i couldn't keep them in all the time (it was part of the adoption from the RSPCA that i let them out anyway).
> 
> I read a quote recently that said nobody should eat an animal that they wouldn't be able to kill and cook themselves (think it was a chef that said it). I couldn't kill an animal - but i don't think i could give up meat, even though i do have veggie days sometimes.


Thank you for this post! x And its nice to see people understanding my true aim, which is sticking up for the animals! x x x


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> No you are not alone in your views.
> 
> I cannot stand killing for the sake of it, in the name of sport.
> 
> ...


Great post! Couldn't agree more!


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## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

I don't no where i'd stand on this issue some would see me as a bit hypocrytical if that is the right word. I hate fox hunting, killing rabbits, seal clubbing etc, but i eat meat that sounds awfull i no although i could never eat rabbit etc.


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## Ladywiccana (Feb 24, 2008)

*Phew that was hard work hehe*


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Maybe I should rate my thread a "PG" in future? pmsl So heavily edited now...its taken the whole thing out of context!

Requested it to be deleted!


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Don't tell me an argument started on the one thread we had left where we could debate not and not get personal??

I see it has been quite moderated with lots of threads removed.

Such a shame that we can't just agree on having different views and leave it at that


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## marion..d (Nov 12, 2008)

its a pity cos it was a good thread at one time


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Don't tell me an argument started on the one thread we had left where we could debate not and not get personal??
> 
> I see it has been quite moderated with lots of threads removed.
> 
> Such a shame that we can't just agree on having different views and leave it at that


Nope no arguement....But the usual whingers reporting! My opening post even was mod'd..... I give up....


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I must have missed something, but this was a great thread and good debating without any fallouts. Thanks Tillysdream now we need to think of another good debate cause we now know it can be done and maybe the ones that don't like it will just stay off ...Jill


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> I must have missed something, but this was a great thread and good debating without any fallouts. Thanks Tillysdream now we need to think of another good debate cause we now know it can be done and maybe the ones that don't like it will just stay off ...Jill


I think thats wishful thinking Jill..... x x x

But yes, will come up with another debate soon!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Maybe next time it will have to state " for debate only, participate if you can debate without PM's"


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I think it depends on your life style, if you are a country bumpkin some wildlife can be a real pain in the ars* , personaly we have a fox who comes and visits, she is cute she is a real towny fox and no threat to me at all, she is interested in the guineas but so far we have kept her out...

But I know alot of people who have live stock cows sheep who have had very bad experiences with foxes, and they will hunt them down and kill them with or without dogs.

Rabbits in my view can be eatten when caught, it is not a sensless kill I am sorry if that offends but it is my view, if you are going to kill it, you must eat it, 

Life in any thing is to preciouse to waste, so if you are going to take one it must go to preseving another one,,

But i must agree with the orignal post, to poke fun at people who are sensative to this topic and have strong views is just disrespectful, if you like doing it only descuss it with like minded people.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

He he thread killer strikes again


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

piggybaker said:


> He he thread killer strikes again


LOL, Your'e not a thread killer.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I don't believe in people using their dogs to hunt wildlife... As I believe all life is precious, what makes a pets life worth more than a wildlife life? A collar?
> 
> People know I find it hurtful to hear of others on here killing wildlife with their dogs, so post a veiled comment to me they are hunting tomorrow with their dogs on my visitors page.....
> 
> ...


Did not read the whole thread (too long lol )

Everybody is entitled to their views, I am not particularly a bit fan of hunting either...but can I just ask (and sorry if it has been mentioned); do you feed your animals vegetarian meals as well? Because if they eat meat well that meat must come from somewhere and for me if I have the choice id rather it came from hunting than farming to some extent... it is a fairer deal for the other animal...

Hunting for the sport merely, no, but hunting to kill and eat I dont have a problem with. I dont eat meat but my dogs do.
All life is equal but we buy meat for our pets therefore we kill other animals just to keep our pets happy (and we feed them probably more than what they would be able to hunt on their own) so to that extent we do put the lives of our pet at a higher level than other animals... Since we feed them meat they may as well work for it, I dont see a problem there...

just my two pence worth really lol


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Oblada said:


> Did not read the whole thread (too long lol )
> 
> Everybody is entitled to their views, I am not particularly a bit fan of hunting either...but can I just ask (and sorry if it has been mentioned); do you feed your animals vegetarian meals as well? Because if they eat meat well that meat must come from somewhere and for me if I have the choice id rather it came from hunting than farming to some extent... it is a fairer deal for the other animal...
> 
> ...


(said in a quiet but confident voice) Well said,, my cuz doesn't agree with this and hold to it, even down to the dog food,, she has 3 collies and they are all veggies,,, shhh strange dogs need meat... natrual to much human influance


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

right, no doubt i'll be burned at the stake but it's my views...

I am a country girl, always have been, always will be. I love animals,always have done, always will do. And, surprisingly, they can go together!!! 

I have been bought up with shooting. I shoot wood pidgeon and game. All of our shot is eaten. Our dog is not shoot trained - she doesn't have anything to do with it about from a nice long walk!

I am also passionate about fox hunting. I do see it as sport. And no, I'm not a snob in a red jacket, I'm a tweed-wearing, speed-loving farmer's daughter.
I am hoping the ban will be repealed as I think that the law is unworkable and....I'm not getting into it, off topic. 

Basically, I see FH as a good method of controlling pests (as they are to me, I have been bought up to see them as pests)
At the minute, i believe it's well within the law to flush a fox with a dog, and let a bird of prey kill it. Surely this is a lot slower than the hounds killing it.
I just think, that, no matter how much emotive language "torn apart by hounds" etc. it doesn't change that the fox is dead in a couple of seconds.
The chase, I agree is not the nicest way to end, but...i don't know,they are just my oppinions.

I hope that comes across okay!!!


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I don't believe in people using their dogs to hunt wildlife... As I believe all life is precious, what makes a pets life worth more than a wildlife life? A collar?
> 
> People know I find it hurtful to hear of others on here killing wildlife with their dogs, so post a veiled comment to me they are hunting tomorrow with their dogs on my visitors page.....
> 
> ...


i hunt with dogs and gun it feeds me my dogs and my family man were born to hunt foxy killed all my livestock foxy gets shot its a tough old world but that is how things are


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

Wow that took some reading - and i get to the end to find lots of posts have been deleted I don't know why but can guess 

Well, there doesn't seem to be many people to rationalise hunting (or maybe they are the deleted posts - who knows) - so here goes.

Hunting with dogs can take many forms, but in the most common activities the dog is not used to kill the animal - it is used to flush, track or retrieve an already dead animal, or if injured the dog can increase the speed at which the animal can be despatched. There are obviously some exceptions to this, but these are largely outlawed now - but some are not and remain an effective method of animal control.

So, firstly I wish to dispel the myth that people who hunt, allow their dogs to kill wildlife, as that is not true, any dog that killed whilst working, that shouldn't have killed, will probably not be invited back.

To answer the original question, a pets life is more valuable than wildlife as the owner has invested, time, money and emotions in to that animal, which has not be invested in the wildlife.

I don't agree with the wilful killing of any animal (inc spiders!), but I am comfortable with most hunting that goes on in Britain, as these animals usually go into the food chain, what I don't like to see is large-scale sporting hunts where the volume of kills far exceeds the local markets.

Most people in Britain, and in fact the world, are carnivores of sort, given availability to meat. It is therefore reasonable that animals are killed to feed humanity. Hunting therefore delivers what most people want...meat. 

Tillysdream: I respect that you live a vegan lifestyle, it is your choice, but I couldn't I love my red meet too much! 
You are in the minority in Britain and should accept that others have different views.:thumbup1:


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

champagneannie said:


> right, no doubt i'll be burned at the stake but it's my views...
> 
> I am a country girl, always have been, always will be. I love animals,always have done, always will do. And, surprisingly, they can go together!!!
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100 per cent


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

we are a hunting,shooting family,our terriers work,and are loving family pets.I think feeding dogs a vegetarian diet because of your own beliefs is selfish and totally unnatural for the dog!! can do it much good either.we eat what we shoot,what we dont is sold to the butchers.
I would consider myself a animal lover,but still hunt with my dogs,they love it and so do we,i do appreciate some people dont approve of this way of life,and can understand some reasoning,but cant abide extremist reactions


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

shortbackandsides said:


> we are a hunting,shooting family,our terriers work,and are loving family pets.I think feeding dogs a vegetarian diet because of your own beliefs is selfish and totally unnatural for the dog!! can do it much good either.we eat what we shoot,what we dont is sold to the butchers.
> I would consider myself a animal lover,but still hunt with my dogs,they love it and so do we,i do appreciate some people dont approve of this way of life,and can understand some reasoning,but cant abide extremist reactions


100% agree


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

champagneannie said:


> 100% agree


Yes me too.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

shortbackandsides said:


> we are a hunting,shooting family,our terriers work,and are loving family pets.I think feeding dogs a vegetarian diet because of your own beliefs is selfish and totally unnatural for the dog!! can do it much good either.we eat what we shoot,what we dont is sold to the butchers.
> I would consider myself a animal lover,but still hunt with my dogs,they love it and so do we,i do appreciate some people dont approve of this way of life,and can understand some reasoning,but cant abide extremist reactions


they should not force there beliefs on there animals dogs need meat its cruel to feed them vegy only


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

Completely agree that personal diet beliefs should not be passed on to animals.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

borderer said:


> they should not force there beliefs on there animals dogs need meat its cruel to feed them vegy only


I agree with this. Its not fair on the dogs.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

i also agree


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

yes i agree with you to, it humanises them,, and i am sorry but at the end of the day a dog is an animal, that need to eat what its teeth where designed for, for one i do believe their coats need the oils in the meat


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Dogs can be veggie (though I don't recommend it) but cats absolutely should not be fed a veggie diet, as they require much higher meat/protein levels than a dog....

Studies have been done that dogs remain healthy and live long lives as veggies....On the other hand cats absolutely must not be fed a veggie diet, as there are dire health consequences as a result.


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Dogs can be veggie (though I don't recommend it) but cats absolutely should not be fed a veggie diet, as they require much higher meat/protein levels than a dog....
> 
> Studies have been done that dogs remain healthy and live long lives as veggies....On the other hand cats absolutely must not be fed a veggie diet, as there are dire health consequences as a result.


Dogs were made to eat meat. Who are we to change that?


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

chill gang I can feel feathers rufferling


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

champagneannie said:


> Dogs were made to eat meat. Who are we to change that?


Read what I put in brackets,  in my first sentence of my post.....


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Dogs can be veggie (though I don't recommend it) but cats absolutely should not be fed a veggie diet, as they require much higher meat/protein levels than a dog....
> 
> Studies have been done that dogs remain healthy and live long lives as veggies....On the other hand cats absolutely must not be fed a veggie diet, as there are dire health consequences as a result.


i think you live in a bubble and its time you burst it and face the real life


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Read what I put in brackets,  in my first sentence of my post.....


i read it.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


> i think you live in a bubble and its time you burst it and face the real life


REALLY????? I worked in the veterinary field, so know what I am talking about when it comes to diet.....


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> REALLY????? I worked in the veterinary field, so know what I am talking about when it comes to diet.....


ye i know feed ya dogs vegy cos you dont like meat:confused5:


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

come on guys this has been a great thread and everyone has played well,,


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Its true

A dog can live on a veggie diet, and very occasionally a vet specialist will reccomend this diet for a dog with severe allergies, or certain conditions which dont allow them to process the meat fats effectively (the name escapes me for a minute!)

A dog can live well and happily. I personally would never choose this diet for my dog, but if my hand was forced through my dogs illness, i certainly wouldnt deny them the chance of a diet which could keep them happy and healthy and with me for many more years.

Cats are a very very different kettle of fish. A cat must have a meat diet - preferable 100% meat, they do not need or require all the fillers added to commercial foods.


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> *Dogs can be veggie (though I don't recommend it) *but cats absolutely should not be fed a veggie diet, as they require much higher meat/protein levels than a dog....
> 
> Studies have been done that dogs remain healthy and live long lives as veggies....On the other hand cats absolutely must not be fed a veggie diet, as there are dire health consequences as a result.





borderer said:


> ye i know feed ya dogs vegy cos you dont like meat:confused5:


She didn't actually say that - she said she wouldn't recommend it but it could be done.

Lets be civil please.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Sylvestris Kennels said:


> She didn't actually say that - she said she wouldn't recommend it but it could be done.
> 
> Lets be civil please.


Thank you!  Some people just love to twist my words!


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Its true
> 
> A dog can live on a veggie diet, and very occasionally a vet specialist will reccomend this diet for a dog with severe allergies, or certain conditions which dont allow them to process the meat fats effectively (the name escapes me for a minute!)
> 
> ...


You also worked in the veterinary field... x


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

My cat Alvin who I always thought was a bit of a fruit cake loves veg, cucumber is a fav at the moment,, I feed him meat don't worry, but veg appears to be his chocolate.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

While i respect people's choice to hunt/shoot/eat Rabbits, birds etc

I can not and will not ever respect people who hunt and kill animals for fun. There is no NEED to do this and no real reason.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> While i respect people's choice to hunt/shoot/eat Rabbits, birds etc
> 
> I can not and will not ever respect people who hunt and kill animals for fun. There is no NEED to do this and no real reason.


i will hunt a fox for fun he killed my livestock for fun


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


> i will hunt a fox for fun he killed my livestock for fun


The fox kills to eat, FACT! Though sometimes over kills....ie. all the chickens in a coop...

A fox doesn't know any better...Humans SHOULD know better...Two wrongs do not make a right....


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> You also worked in the veterinary field... x


lol! is it that obvious?


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> The fox kills to eat, FACT! Though sometimes over kills....ie. all the chickens in a coop...
> 
> A fox doesn't know any better...Humans SHOULD know better...Two wrongs do not make a right....


eye for an eye so do i get him or just say never mind come back and do it again i wont hurt you will leave you more to kill tonight


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

borderer said:


> eye for an eye so do i get him or just say never mind come back and do it again i wont hurt you will leave you more to kill tonight


You are right borderer, but there are ways of saying things that don't cause so many arguments you would do well to temper your bravado please


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


> eye for an eye so do i get him or just say never mind come back and do it again i wont hurt you will leave you more to kill tonight


Completely understand where you are coming from....Don't kill Mr Fox, he is just trying to feed himself and his wee family...

Protect your livestock better!  Though sometimes he will outwit you...


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Completely understand where you are coming from....Don't kill Mr Fox, he is just trying to feed himself and his wee family...
> 
> Protect your live stock better!  Though sometimes he will outwit you...


Last year the fox got 20 lambs, there was NOTHING we could have done to protect our livestock better! So mr fox had to go.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

borderer said:


> eye for an eye so do i get him or just say never mind come back and do it again i wont hurt you will leave you more to kill tonight


In that case if you kill him.........then your next?? Eye for an eye and all that..........


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Completely understand where you are coming from....Don't kill Mr Fox, he is just trying to feed himself and his wee family...
> 
> Protect your livestock better!  Though sometimes he will outwit you...


i am feeding my wee family no he wont outwit me he aint there anymore my mastiff got him


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Completely understand where you are coming from....Don't kill Mr Fox, he is just trying to feed himself and his wee family...
> 
> Protect your livestock better!  Though sometimes he will outwit you...


unfourtunately it's not quite as simple as that here in the country!!!!
i assume it's the same in borderers case...


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> In that case if you kill him.........then your next?? Eye for an eye and all that..........


Love it....!!!!


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

Could you not secure your chickens more so the fox cant get in, i live in the country and had chickens and no fox ever got any of them they were securly shut up at nights, i have to agree with some no animal should be killed for fun, animals kill to eat thats survival, its nature and keeps the population down , just a personal opinion .


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

jeanie said:


> Could you not secure your chickens more so the fox cant get in, i live in the country and had chickens and no fox ever got any of them they were securly shut up at nights, i have to agree with some no animal should be killed for fun, animals kill to eat thats survival, its nature and keeps the population down , just a personal opinion .


it's very hard to keep them off the lambs i'm afraid.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

champagneannie said:


> unfourtunately it's not quite as simple as that here in the country!!!!
> i assume it's the same in borderers case...


Take it on the chin....The poor "livestock" was probably gonna be slaughtered anyway 

As I said, Mr Fox has to eat!!!!! Though....my heart bleeds for his prey....


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I can't imagine how you can protect lambs as they stay in the fields...

Unless I'm having a really bad blonde moment!!!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Take it on the chin....The poor "livestock" was probably gonna be slaughtered anyway
> 
> As I said, Mr Fox has to eat!!!!! Though....my heart bleeds for his prey....


And into Cat Food.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

jeanie said:


> Could you not secure your chickens more so the fox cant get in, i live in the country and had chickens and no fox ever got any of them they were securly shut up at nights, i have to agree with some no animal should be killed for fun, animals kill to eat thats survival, its nature and keeps the population down , just a personal opinion .


foxes kill for fun why should i secure my animals they have a right to roam just like the fox and i have a right to protect them


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


> i am feeding my wee family no he wont outwit me he aint there anymore my mastiff got him


Well, your just as bad if not worse than Mr Fox imo..... You SHOULD know better....He doesn't....


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Take it on the chin....The poor "livestock" was probably gonna be slaughtered anyway
> 
> As I said, Mr Fox has to eat!!!!! Though....my heart bleeds for his prey....


A poster said they lost 20 lambs last year.

20 * £50 = £1000 to Mr Fox - thats a little steep for any business to take on the chin

When the Lamb is sold for slaughter that is a return on the investment - if the fox eats it, thats not just lost income but lost expenditure too - so its not that simple.


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I can't imagine how you can protect lambs as they stay in the fields...
> 
> Unless I'm having a really bad blonde moment!!!


very very difficult! you can get reflective jackets that scare the fox off, but if you have 200 ewes, bareing say, 2 lambs each and £5 per jacket....


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I can't imagine how you can protect lambs as they stay in the fields...
> 
> Unless I'm having a really bad blonde moment!!!


Near impossible I agree.....


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Sylvestris Kennels said:


> A poster said they lost 20 lambs last year.
> 
> 20 * £50 = £1000 to Mr Fox - thats a little steep for any business to take on the chin
> 
> When the Lamb is sold for slaughter that is a return on the investment - if the fox eats it, thats not just lost income but lost expenditure too - so its not that simple.


I understand the money aspect of it all!!! Its a bit like crops....some get damaged/diseased....Farmer takes loses just like any other business.....


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Near impossible I agree.....


.......................


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> Near impossible I agree.....


They could get a few alpacas to "guard" lambs and sheep 

"The simple fact is that foxes do not like alpacas and alpacas do not like foxes. The mere smell of alpacas is enough to keep foxes away."

Simple without any need of killing


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


> you are one big blonde moment


More insults  I have my beliefs and you have yours....No need to get personal.


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I understand the money aspect of it all!!! Its a bit like crops....some get damaged/diseased....Farmer takes loses just like any other business.....


oh you just don't understand do you!?

a loss to a farmer is a disaster - a massive loss for a year. farmers need their animals to live and for money. There is no question - fox or farmers income (the pittance that it is) - the fox has to go I'm afraid.


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I understand the money aspect of it all!!! Its a bit like crops....some get damaged/diseased....Farmer takes loses just like any other business.....


Unavoidable loses...yes....avoidable....no - unless society is willing to pay a fox tax (to allow them to kill livestock and refund the farmer) to help fund farming? Why should the farmer have to fund the cost of societies desire? If society wants something, they should be prepared to pay for it - I suspect most won't want too?


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> They could get a few alpacas to "guard" lambs and sheep
> 
> "The simple fact is that foxes do not like alpacas and alpacas do not like foxes. The mere smell of alpacas is enough to keep foxes away."
> 
> Simple without any need of killing


I didn't know that!  You are fountain of info!!!!


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

I understood farmers are insured against losses, maybe i have heard it wrong please corect me if i am.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> I didn't know that!  You are fountain of info!!!!


Farmers in wales use alpacas to guard their sheep and chickens from foxes :thumbup1:


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

champagneannie said:


> oh you just don't understand do you!?
> a loss to a farmer is a disaster - a massive loss for a year. farmers need their animals to live and for money. There is no question - fox or farmers income (the pittance that it is) - the fox has to go I'm afraid.


Yes, I understand...I am not stupid like you are trying to imply!!!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Lovely and simple... aint it :thumbup1:


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

jeanie said:


> I understood farmers are insured against losses, maybe i have heard it wrong please corect me if i am.


I believe they are! Though some may not want to fork out for insurance.....


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

champagneannie said:


> oh you just don't understand do you!?
> 
> a loss to a farmer is a disaster - a massive loss for a year. farmers need their animals to live and for money. There is no question - fox or farmers income (the pittance that it is) - the fox has to go I'm afraid.


Farmers have it hard enough as it is without taking in to account losses


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

I dont agree with hunting for the sake of....however if you hunt for food and the animal is dispatched in a clean manner then I see no issue with it. We are all part of the food chain, we only get the better of animals because of our cunning and amunition, tho admittedly we have no preditor in this country. 

As far as foxes go (I see we're going slightly off track for a change)  I hear marksmen called out an awful lot more these days. A fox kills for the sake of. My friend has lost a heck of a lot of chickens and ducksthe past year to foxes mr fox has not tried the geese, my money is on the geese if he does, and her pen is, you would think secure. The hut is stacked on wood which is stacked on wood, the fencing is now buried 3ft underground as the fox dug under it and the top of the fence is electrified. No her chicks do not end up in the pot they are layers and she also breeds. And yet the fox still manages to get in. The best of it is the last time her flock was decimated we counted the chickens that were killed and it matched the amount missing the fox had killed 16 chickens in one go and not taken any for food or bitten any meat off them and no he wasnt disturbed.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> Lovely and simple... aint it :thumbup1:


Lovely pic!!!! Highlights your point beautifully!


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Yes, I understand...I am not stupid like you are trying to imply!!!!


i actually wasn't saying you were stupid - just didn't really understand the hardships for farmers.
How do you know that's what I was saying?


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Yes, I understand...I am not stupid like you are trying to imply!!!!


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

yes, because a lot of farmers can afford the outlay, feed, vet bills etc of alpacas...

nice idea, and prehaps some farms use them, but not very practical I'm afraid.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


>


You still here


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

champagneannie said:


> yes, because a lot of farmers can afford the outlay, feed, vet bills etc of alpacas...
> 
> nice idea, and prehaps some farms use them, but not very practical I'm afraid.


"Alpacas have been used as chicken and sheep guards for over 15 years in Australia where there are over 110,000 alpacas producing a very fine, soft and elite fibre which is used in the luxury clothing market worldwide."

must be practical when used for such a long time


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

champagneannie said:


> oh you just don't understand do you!?
> 
> a loss to a farmer is a disaster - a massive loss for a year. farmers need their animals to live and for money. There is no question - fox or farmers income (the pittance that it is) - the fox has to go I'm afraid.


I agree with you, how silly to defend a fox against someones livelyhood. Oh it gets worse.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

"Here in the UK the alpaca has been used not only on commercial size chicken and sheep farms but also by hobby and small scale farmers. These otherwise gentle, inquisitive and bewitching animals are easy to look after and mix happily with their new families. Many farmers have alpacas as integral parts of their operations and are reaping the rewards as a result. "

"Alpaca wethers live for approximately 20 years and are very easy to keep and care for. Alpacas are very efficient grazers as they are classed as semi ruminants. This means that they do well on poor pasture and require no supplementary feeding other than access to hay all year round. 
They require shearing once a year, toe nail clipping three times a year and twice yearly deworming and vaccinating. "


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> You still here


ye but i dont know why::closedeyes:


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> "Alpacas have been used as chicken and sheep guards for over 15 years in Australia where there are over 110,000 alpacas producing a very fine, soft and elite fibre which is used in the luxury clothing market worldwide."
> 
> must be practical when used for such a long time


i think its more the inital outlay. the cost of getting them, feeding them, caring for them is all a cost at the start


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> "Alpacas have been used as chicken and sheep guards for over 15 years in Australia where there are over 110,000 alpacas producing a very fine, soft and elite fibre which is used in the luxury clothing market worldwide."
> 
> must be practical when used for such a long time


I'm in England, and where I'm sure you'll be able to find me a link showing a farm with some alpacas, I'm yet to be convinced. I come from farming families, and the space, food, vets, daily care of alpacas would in no way be practical for the way of life farming is...


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

There are a lot of farms round me using Alpacas, nice info that i wondered why they had them mixed with the sheep.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I agree with you, how silly to defend a fox against someones livelyhood. Oh it gets worse.


Imo "LIFE" is more important than "MONEY".....


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Imo "LIFE" is more important than "MONEY".....


So if your income was about to be lost in whatever way, wouldnt you defend it.


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## Ladywiccana (Feb 24, 2008)

*Ok im gonna join in  ..............

When god created the earth, I wonder why he made it so, that animals would eat other animals, and man would eat them (and sometimes each other hehe)i guess everthing needed a food chain, because without it, the earth would have been over run ( pretty much like now i guess haha).

I know its horribe but unfortunatley that is they way life is, it is the balance of life that has gotten out of hand, as in Ying and Yang fashion!

Hope ive made that easy to understand lol.................:aureola:*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

jeanie said:


> There are a lot of farms round me using Alpacas, nice info that i wondered why they had them mixed with the sheep.


maybe u can provide the links to their farms, as i dont know if farmers have their own websites  

....but proves that it works for farms or else they wouldnt have them :thumbup1:


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Imo "LIFE" is more important than "MONEY".....


 no money no life what a silly blonde answer


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

mumof5 said:


> i think its more the inital outlay. the cost of getting them, feeding them, caring for them is all a cost at the start


Is that not the case with ALL livestock?


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Imo "LIFE" is more important than "MONEY".....


well, imo, the devastating affects of the loss of income on a farmer - who risks complete financial and mental ruin, is well worth and justified stopping - for the sake of a fox's life.


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Is that not the case with ALL livestock?


well obviously, but there is the income to be made from them...that is farming...


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

i just want to say, has this thread gone off topic? i've lost track now i've got to this point :shocked:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

mumof5 said:


> i think its more the inital outlay. the cost of getting them, feeding them, caring for them is all a cost at the start


Alpacas cost less per month to feed than a dog.

Alpacas @ Thistledown Farm in Devon


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

borderer said:


> no money no life what a silly blonde answer


I disagree with this, money doesn't give you life.
Money is created by man


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

borderer said:


> no money no life what a silly blonde answer


Exactly. . . . . this is laughable.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

borderer said:


> no money no life what a silly blonde answer


I think its a bit unfair to say that bordie.....Tilly has the right to voice her opinion as do you .....we dont need to get personal about it

I could never kill but I understand the nescesity to do so....I dont agree with killing for fun though and detest fox hunting.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Is that not the case with ALL livestock?


definately, but how do the farmers protect the stock agains foxes while they are raising the funds?


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> i just want to say, has this thread gone off topic? i've lost track now i've got to this point :shocked:


Nope the OP posted about hunting - we are taking about hunting.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

mumof5 said:


> i think its more the inital outlay. the cost of getting them, feeding them, caring for them is all a cost at the start


Alpacas cost less per month to feed than a dog. 

Alpacas @ Thistledown Farm in Devon


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> Alpacas cost less per month to feed than a dog.
> 
> Alpacas @ Thistledown Farm in Devon


thats really interesting, thank you.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I think its a bit unfair to say that bordie.....Tilly has the right to voice her opinion as do you .....we dont need to get personal about it
> 
> I could never kill but I understand the nescesity to do so....I dont agree with killing for fun though and detest fox hunting.


you may detest it but you will never stop it but she says some realy silly things


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

ladywiccana said:


> *Ok im gonna join in  ..............
> 
> When god created the earth, I wonder why he made it so, that animals would eat other animals, and man would eat them (and sometimes each other hehe)i guess everthing needed a food chain, because without it, the earth would have been over run ( pretty much like now i guess haha).
> 
> ...


You made perfect sense...Though, earlier on in the thread, I said God created a very cruel food chain...But, we as humans should know better? We have soooo many other sources of food. Animals don't?

And I believe "the meek (animals) shall inherit the earth"


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


> you may detest it but you will never stop it but she says some realy silly things


Silly?

"Perception is unique to the individual".....


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Sylvestris Kennels said:


> Nope the OP posted about hunting - we are taking about hunting.


Thank you Ian


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

borderer said:


> you may detest it but you will never stop it but she says some realy silly things


To you maybe but she along with many others have the same view.....just because its not the same as yours doesnt make her silly

No I can never stop it - but we cannot stop people being murdered either doesnt mean I will ever agree with that


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

this thread is now getting silly we are now on religion i just dont believe it some real live in a bubble people by


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Exactly. . . . . this is laughable.


It seems you just come on my threads to have a go and back up people being snide....maybe you should try constructive answers, ON TOPIC!!


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Imo "LIFE" is more important than "MONEY".....


At this very moment in time money is more important to me, I'm giving up my home due to lack of money, and we're getting into serious debts, That tiny bit of return that we make from our livestock is SO important to us right now. Without them, we'd be starving as well as nearly homeless.... I need all the lambs and other livestock to stay alive so i can afford it live and feed myself and my OH. To be honest, i don't give the foxes life a second thought at moment. My main concern is myself.


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

borderer said:


> no money no life what a silly blonde answer





rona said:


> I disagree with this, money doesn't give you life.
> Money is created by man


Ah Rona - but we also live in society created by man - that requires money - in today's life you need money to buy the basic...food, energy, water and shelter.

So I think you do need money for life.

I don't agree with the blonde comment though


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I think peoples inteligence is being insulted expecting them to listen to this trash ime off.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


> this thread is now getting silly we are now on religion i just dont believe it some real live in a bubble people by


Its my "bubble"....You have yours....

But, at least I am not blood thirsty and resort to personal comments!


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## Ladywiccana (Feb 24, 2008)

*okydoky that was probably my fault lol, so back on topic please your all doing a fantastic job :aureola: :thumbup1:*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> I think peoples inteligence is being insulted expecting them to listen to this trash ime off.


Im surprised at u


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

lifeizsweet said:


> At this very moment in time money is more important to me, I'm giving up my home due to lack of money, and we're getting into serious debts, That tiny bit of return that we make from our livestock is SO important to us right now. Without them, we'd be starving as well as nearly homeless.... I need all the lambs and other livestock to stay alive so i can afford it live and feed myself and my OH. To be honest, i don't give the foxes life a second thought at moment. My main concern is myself.


finally someone is talking sense and is in the real world...not some rose tinted little planet with all the cuddly foxes and lambs bounding around together.

I'm getting so frustrated.:mad2:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> It seems you just come on my threads to have a go and back up people being snide....maybe you should try constructive answers, ON TOPIC!!


Ile back up anyone who i agree with, and yes usually with consructive answers but reading this o.m.g.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I think peoples inteligence is being insulted expecting them to listen to this trash ime off.


That's abit harsh.....Someones opinion/views should not be considered trash.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

champagneannie said:


> finally someone is talking sense and is in the real world...not some rose tinted little planet with all the cuddly foxes and lambs bounding around together.
> 
> I'm getting so frustrated.:mad2:


Nope....I don't see the world that way...You are clearly misreading my posts!!!!!


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

Natik said:


> Alpacas cost less per month to feed than a dog.
> 
> Alpacas @ Thistledown Farm in Devon


From apples to scrumpy in Somerset: a tour of England's best cider farms | Mail Online

This is a cider farm where alpaca look after the sheep half way down.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I think peoples inteligence is being insulted expecting them to listen to this trash ime off.


ye me too its now a blonde thread by by


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## Ladywiccana (Feb 24, 2008)

*Is it time to close this thread me thinks???? Its just gonna keep going round and round till it ends up in an argument..............:confused5: :mad2: :mad2:*


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

borderer said:


> ye me too its now a blonde thread by by


i'm blonde and i'm a hunter!


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## champagneannie (Jan 15, 2009)

ladywiccana said:


> *Is it time to close this thread me thinks???? Its just gonna keep going round and round till it ends up in an argument..............:confused5: :mad2: :mad2:*


oh please don't.

if people can keep the personal attacks down, we can still have civil debate.

please keep it open for a while longer.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

jeanie said:


> From apples to scrumpy in Somerset: a tour of England's best cider farms | Mail Online
> 
> This is a cider farm where alpaca look after the sheep half way down.


thank u for the link


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

borderer said:


> ye me too its now a blonde thread by by


bye then! how u can call us blonde when u are acting more stupid then any blonde I know!! FFS people have different opinions why are u getting all worked up about it! is it gonna stop u doing what u do??? NO!!! its just a forum where we are talking ! lighten up bordie


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I think peoples inteligence is being insulted expecting them to listen to this trash ime off.


Not once have I called another posters opinion trash which you have chosen to do....Unlike some, I can actually SEE both sides... But I know which side I firmly sit in...And you and Borderer have shown yourselves up big time...


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

I find the thing about alpacas interesting, not sure how easy it would be to implement at our place, got to speak to business partner, lots of things to consider, just wonder why when we know so many in the farming industry, that it hasn't caught on.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Going back to the fox bit and why dont farmers get alpacas, well apart from anything else the vast majority of farmers just dont have the initial outlay available at the moment, they were hit for 6 over foot and mouth and farms are folding at a horrendous rate, I'm sure at least half if not more are just holding on through sheer bloody mindedness. Hubs has/had a few as clients so am very well aware of their struggles to keep the land going not for profit just to keep going, and so in the short term the gun is cheaper.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

ladywiccana said:


> *Is it time to close this thread me thinks???? Its just gonna keep going round and round till it ends up in an argument..............:confused5: :mad2: :mad2:*


It was only "one" person really who is being argumentative and personal (maybe one other), you would be giving them what they want if you close it!!!!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

lifeizsweet said:


> I find the thing about alpacas interesting, not sure how easy it would be to implement at our place, got to speak to business partner, lots of things to consider, just wonder why when we know so many in the farming industry, that it hasn't caught on.


u could maybe contact the farms using them and maybe they could tell u how they benefit from them?

Its definitly worth looking into


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

lifeizsweet said:


> I find the thing about alpacas interesting, not sure how easy it would be to implement at our place, got to speak to business partner, lots of things to consider, just wonder why when we know so many in the farming industry, that it hasn't caught on.


Good for you! Its always worth at the very least, looking into!


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

Natik said:


> u could maybe contact the farms using them and maybe they could tell u how they benefit from them?
> 
> Its definitly worth looking into


I will be looking into it more, however, at the very very moment in time we just couldn't afford the inital costs, maybe if things pick up next year... But sadly at this moment in time we just can't justify the costs.


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

I believe they range from £400 to £450 , same price as most dogs really, there are lots of breeding farms around very interesting to learn about ,


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> It was only "one" person really who is being argumentative and personal (maybe one other), you would be giving them what they want if you close it!!!!


The most sensible thing you have said all night.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

jeanie said:


> I believe they range from £400 to £450 , same price as most dogs really, there are lots of breeding farms around very interesting to learn about ,


yes, thats the prices i have seen too


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## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

My friend has Llamas on her farm.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

Indie said:


> My friend has Llamas on her farm.


Is that for protection?


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## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

rona said:


> Is that for protection?


Do you no i don't no tbh i will have to ask her she recently got a couple of babies think she has 4 now.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Imo "LIFE" is more important than "MONEY".....


So you feed your cats a veggie diet?? 
If you feed your cat meat it has to come from somewhere so why not from hunting?? Surely its better than cows raised to be burgers and never having the space the roam free (just talking for the unethical farms but still)...
and surely this means that to you your pets life has more value than whatever goes into the commercial food or meat you buy...if they were all equal you should let your cat get on with it and eat what he can catch and not help...


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Imo "LIFE" is more important than "MONEY".....


Pah if that were only true. I have no extra money at the moment, I have 1000$ saved up and roughly 700$ indebt. Right now my mind is on money!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

bird said:


> Going back to the fox bit and why dont farmers get alpacas, well apart from anything else the vast majority of farmers just dont have the initial outlay available at the moment, they were hit for 6 over foot and mouth and farms are folding at a horrendous rate, I'm sure at least half if not more are just holding on through sheer bloody mindedness. Hubs has/had a few as clients so am very well aware of their struggles to keep the land going not for profit just to keep going, and so in the short term the gun is cheaper.





Natik said:


> u could maybe contact the farms using them and maybe they could tell u how they benefit from them?
> 
> Its definitly worth looking into


*Perhaps you could work out some kind of share/co-op system with other farmers and alpacas? Once a field is known to contain them the fox may leave the field alone for a while before trying again. So the alpacas could be rotated.*

My landlord has a sheep farm, and an alpaca. His alpaca is a rescue, so there's another resource to look into. He loves his guy, not only are the sheep protected from fox, the alpaca alerts him to ill sheep or dropped and lost lambs.

Oh, I live in the USA, in a dairy farming community, but our city contains two large universities, about three miles down the road from my landlord's sheep farm.

Many people in my community rely on deer season to feed their families. This I do not object to. Unfortunately we also get all the city slickers from NYC and New Jersey, and they trash the sides of our roads, poach, and use other illegal practices, all for "sport". I loathe hunting for "sport". They also shoot each other quite often.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

The alpaca theory sounds really good. But definetly understand it takes money to get going with it. I respect our farmers for if it wasn't for them we would not have our meat. milk, flour so bakery goods etc etc etc , we need to preserve farms and if that means the unfortunate death of some wildlife not much we can do about it. I don't believe in hunting for fun, but if you hunt and use that animal for food I do not have a problem. If you hunt to preserve your livlihood I also don't have a problem, having seen the damage that can be caused by coyotes, foxes even gophers is quite amazing. Farmers insurance usually doesn't cover the cost of the damage, and I'm not even sure it would cover such things as loss of farm animals to wildlife, I know it covers hail damage but its not 100% coverage and is very expensive. I appreciate the views of people that do not like hunting, and those that try to live a veggie diet but am pleased they don't make their animals live by it. I eat meat, bread and dairy products so think I will always support my local farmers....Jill


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Hiya guys

OK i just want to throw a few pennies into the works.

To the lady who lost 20 lambs. Where abouts are you? I have a number of family up north (hill farmers), they lamb their sheep in lambing sheds and turn them out into the low pastures once they are strong enough. Their lambs for market dont go onto the top hills ever, the ones to keep get turned out towards the end of summer (lambing begins last week of march first week of april up there) when they are massive.

Last spring they lost 11 lambs to fox because they sleep in the lambing sheds with the sheep.

The spring before, i spent 5 weeks with them over lambing, they lost 7. This is the total between 4 farms!


Sometimes i do wonder, if farmers bedrudge the extra cost of the lambing sheds, and the extra time needed to prevent predation. I'm not accusing you of this, its just something i wonder as a whole. Good husbandry should mean far fewer losses than the figure you were talking about. 

I have also seen foxes visiting the evening pile of stillborn lambs. The carcases were left outside the shed and ive seen the fox make off with one of these.


The hill farmers, do and will shoot a fox they catch amongst its livestock, but they dont go out and persecute every fox in the area anymore. Attitudes are changing, slowly. I obviously dont include those farmers who make money through grouse shooting etc - their gamekeepers will kill just about every predatory animal/vermin they can find. I also would assume a mixed farmer (either mixed livestock, or mixed lifestock and arable) would have a different attitude. they cant be in 4 places at once.

As for the cost of lambs! £50 a lamb! If you could tell me the market you sell your sheep at, let me know! I'm pretty sure my family would make the effort to drive down there! Their prices for spring lambs were appalling last year, their top price was still under £40! However this years autumn gimmer sales were up almost double to £75 a head. Mind you, a fox is hardly going to try to take down a filly grown sheep with horns! 


I can and do understand the need to defend your livestock. If a fox is caught in the sheds, then it needs dealing with. 

However i dont like the "a fox must have been in" and so a hunt is organised to kill every fox in the vicinity.

Attitudes like this led to the decline of other native species. The red kite was considered vermin, and so was hunted to almost extinction


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Hiya guys
> 
> OK i just want to throw a few pennies into the works.
> 
> ...


The fox has been persecuted for decades now with no sign that they will become extinct, and I just wonder what happens when the population explodes to unmanageable proportions. As they inevitably will left to their own devices.
The fox has no natural predator in this country, much like the poor deer that the league against cruel sports protected on a piece of land owned by them, which starved to death through over population
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1414857/Deer-society-presses-for-inquiry-into-sanctuary.html


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

rona said:


> The fox has been persecuted for decades now with no sign that they will become extinct, and I just wonder what happens when the population explodes to unmanageable proportions. As they inevitably will left to their own devices.
> The fox has no natural predator in this country, much like the poor deer that the league against cruel sports protected on a piece of land owned by them, which starved to death through over population
> Deer society presses for inquiry into sanctuary - Telegraph


Good post Rona


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Oblada said:


> So you feed your cats a veggie diet??
> If you feed your cat meat it has to come from somewhere so why not from hunting?? Surely its better than cows raised to be burgers and never having the space the roam free (just talking for the unethical farms but still)...
> and surely this means that to you your pets life has more value than whatever goes into the commercial food or meat you buy...if they were all equal you should let your cat get on with it and eat what he can catch and not help...


Good point, I made this point early and got no reply


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

rona said:


> The fox has been persecuted for decades now with no sign that they will become extinct, and I just wonder what happens when the population explodes to unmanageable proportions. As they inevitably will left to their own devices.
> The fox has no natural predator in this country, much like the poor deer that the league against cruel sports protected on a piece of land owned by them, which starved to death through over population
> Deer society presses for inquiry into sanctuary - Telegraph


I do understand what your saying. And its very sad that the deer starved, yet it was still caused by our intervention. The land is still managed and they were in a sanctuary which suggests land boundaries.

The foxes natural predators were killed out many many many years ago. We hunted the wolf to extinction. Wolves in america have been documented to reduce the coyote pest problems. Numbers of coyote's in areas where wolves are have plummeted. However its still which is the greater evil. There will always be a top predator, and so lesser predators are driven out or killed. Their numbers suffer while the top predators soar.

The fox in the uk is a very adaptable creature, it survives as well in the countryside as in the urban environment (probably more so in the urban areas). Have its numbers been influenced by humans..... damn right! Ive also seen a few videos of golden eagles hunting and killing foxes - in fact many hunts now take an eagle with them as its a loophole in the law.... any thoughts? surely that would be the uk's natural predator? But yet again by our intervention we have almost wiped out the wild eagles!

I object to needless killing, however I have said that (maybe i didnt make it clear), i dont object to an animal being killed that is caught damaging or attacking lifestock.

I feel the same about our top predator as i do about the wolves now being killed again in the states. Needless killing is just cruel. I dont like bloodsports.

Killing in animal that is removing your own food, or an animal that will provide you with food - i completely support. Killing for fun or fur... no.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Oblada said:


> So you feed your cats a veggie diet??
> If you feed your cat meat it has to come from somewhere so why not from hunting?? Surely its better than cows raised to be burgers and never having the space the roam free (just talking for the unethical farms but still)...
> and surely this means that to you your pets life has more value than whatever goes into the commercial food or meat you buy...if they were all equal you should let your cat get on with it and eat what he can catch and not help...


please point out WHERE she has once said she feeds her dogs or cats on a veggie diet?

A cat will DIE if fed a veggie diet

I will say though, i agree with you on the rest of the post. I dont buy commercial supermarket meat for my family and that includes my pets. I much prefer to know where it comes from, and that includes game birds and rabbits. Dont often get the chance for venison!

My friend (the one waiting for her field spaniel pup), is a warden for a local country park. The gamekeeper there feeds his dogs on culled animals, rabbits, birds and lots and lots of squirrels. Its rare that dog ever had chicken or beef .


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

To me it boils down to one simple, inescapable fact. 

There is a difference between killing animals out of necessity (eg food, protection etc) and killing animals for fun. Hunting as a 'sport' is killing animals for fun and is not a necessity, plain and simple.

I have nothing but pity for anyone who could take pleasure in making an animal suffer and I see no distinction between sending a pack of hounds to tear apart a fox and putting two dogs into a ring to fight each other to the death, yet it appears that one of these activities is a lot more socially acceptable than the other.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I have to say i love the alpaca and llama ideas!

However you would have to work out the relative cost. Its not just the purchase of the animal, but its upkeep and vet fees etc. If you only rarely lose livestock to the fox, then it really wouldnt be worth while financially. 

However if you suffer from alot of predation it would certainly be worth considering, it could also make more money if you chose to breed it once a year!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> To me it boils down to one simple, inescapable fact.
> 
> There is a difference between killing animals out of necessity (eg food, protection etc) and killing animals for fun. Hunting as a 'sport' is killing animals for fun and is not a necessity, plain and simple.
> 
> I have nothing but pity for anyone who could take pleasure in making an animal suffer and I see no distinction between sending a pack of hounds to tear apart a fox and putting two dogs into a ring to fight each other to the death, yet it appears that one of these activities is a lot more socially acceptable than the other.


here here!


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Will Alpacas protect my pond (and wildlife, children, flower beds etc) from cats?

If so I might get a few.

I am just glad that it will never be possible to see the world that some of the contributors the this thread would presumably like to create. One where we are all half starved, picking berries while wild animals are running amok.

The mind boggles.


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

I would also like to suggest to some that they do a bit of reading up on man's evolutionary journey.

By all accounts we increased in size, strength and brain development the fastest during the periods when meat was abundant.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I understand the need to kill - I love meat! - however I dont agree with killing for fun or sport! that imo is wrong! - it doesnt mean I go around with rose tinted glasses on and think that animals should rule the world as some people on here suggest


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> I understand the need to kill - I love meat! - however I dont agree with killing for fun or sport! that imo is wrong! - it doesnt mean I go around with rose tinted glasses on and think that animals should rule the world as some people on here suggest


*I agree Suzy,i hate the idea of killing for fun,but for food i don't have a problem.
I might add,if animals did rule the world it might be a better place.*


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> To me it boils down to one simple, inescapable fact.
> 
> There is a difference between killing animals out of necessity (eg food, protection etc) and killing animals for fun. Hunting as a 'sport' is killing animals for fun and is not a necessity, plain and simple.
> 
> I have nothing but pity for anyone who could take pleasure in making an animal suffer and I see no distinction between sending a pack of hounds to tear apart a fox and putting two dogs into a ring to fight each other to the death, yet it appears that one of these activities is a lot more socially acceptable than the other.


fantastic post... :thumbup1:


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I agree Suzy,i hate the idea of killing for fun,but for food i don't have a problem.
> I might add,if animals did rule the world it might be a better place.*


Exactly Jan! ....


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Rick said:


> Will Alpacas protect my pond (and wildlife, children, flower beds etc) from cats?
> 
> If so I might get a few.


Great idea, Rick. A humane cat deterrent. You could make your fortune if it worked! (PS I thought you'd be in the naughty corner by now after the other night, repeat after me, I love pussy cats ...)


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I understand the need to kill - I love meat! - however I dont agree with killing for fun or sport! that imo is wrong! - it doesnt mean I go around with rose tinted glasses on and think that animals should rule the world as some people on here suggest


I agree


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> I agree


Thanks Claire ---- it irritates me that just because some people dont like animals being killed in any way,shape or form that others think they live in a fairy world ...this isnt true, its just their beliefs.....we are all entitled to that


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Thanks Claire ---- it irritates me that just because some people dont like animals being killed in any way,shape or form that others think they live in a fairy world ...this isnt true, its just their beliefs.....we are all entitled to that


True, I think somepeople see things one way and believe anyone who doesnt see it the same is wrong and thats not right, there can be many opinions and to some degree they are all right.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> True, I think somepeople see things one way and believe anyone who doesnt see it the same is wrong and thats not right, there can be many opinions and to some degree they are all right.


Very true Claire... It has made me think about what I would do if I was stuck on a desert island somewhere and had to kill my own food ....would I be able to do it??  some people would say yep no problem and others would be more reluctant - I think its a lot to do with peoples makeup too


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Very true Claire... It has made me think about what I would do if I was stuck on a desert island somewhere and had to kill my own food ....would I be able to do it??  some people would say yep no problem and others would be more reluctant - I think its a lot to do with peoples makeup too


On that thought I think we'd all be reluctant to kill to begin with, then the hunger would take over and the natural instinct to eat would override any qualms you had.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> To me it boils down to one simple, inescapable fact.
> 
> There is a difference between killing animals out of necessity (eg food, protection etc) and killing animals for fun. Hunting as a 'sport' is killing animals for fun and is not a necessity, plain and simple.
> 
> I have nothing but pity for anyone who could take pleasure in making an animal suffer and I see no distinction between sending a pack of hounds to tear apart a fox and putting two dogs into a ring to fight each other to the death, yet it appears that one of these activities is a lot more socially acceptable than the other.


How about for the good of the species as a whole?
What do you think would happen to say, foxes if they were allowed to breed unchecked?
They do not stay in one territory, a vixen will have say, 5 cubs, those cubs spread out to other areas.
What happens when they get to saturation point and over winter the food is scarce?
Watch out you pet bunnies, and even cats if they get too hungry.
I have been trying to find a website that doesn't seem to be bias either way, 
I think that I have found one and it backs control of various specious within the uk.
Veterinary Association for Wildlife Management - Management of the rural and urban fox


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> please point out WHERE she has once said she feeds her dogs or cats on a veggie diet?
> 
> A cat will DIE if fed a veggie diet
> 
> ...


I did not say the OP said she fed her cats a veggie diet, I am merely struggling to see the rational in her "opinions".

Is she against killing animals generally? didnt she say that all life was equal? In which case she should not really condone killing animals for meat by buying meat for her cats and helping them get stronger at the detriment of whatever is in their food bowl...if all life is equal to her her cats should be left to fend for themselves. 
I am a realist; I am not against killing animals as we need to (if not to always feed ourselves, to feed our domesticated animals in some cases..and to protect livestock, fields etc and to avoid overpopulation etc...).
I fail to understand how anyone can be against killing animals point blank and feed their pets meat (especially commercial pet food considering the life the poor animal must have had before it became meat), it is not rational.

I am, like most people here, against killing for fun.
But there are many purposes in hunting/killing which I can only condone..


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

rona said:


> How about for the good of the species as a whole?
> What do you think would happen to say, foxes if they were allowed to breed unchecked?
> They do not stay in one territory, a vixen will have say, 5 cubs, those cubs spread out to other areas.
> What happens when they get to saturation point and over winter the food is scarce?
> ...


Good point there Rona, we cull the pidgeons in the city, there is no difference in maintaining the population of other animals, its just foxes etc look more cute to some and therefore worth saving a bit more  so have people in uproar


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

bird said:


> On that thought I think we'd all be reluctant to kill to begin with, then the hunger would take over and the natural instinct to eat would override any qualms you had.


I know, I think some people would try and forage for other stuff for a long time and then maybe resort - Im not sure what I would do.....I suppose u would have to be in the situation to fully know on a whole though some people are more readily open to the thought than others


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*For me if i had to kill for food my main concern would be how to kill something in the proper manner.*


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *For me if i had to kill for food my main concern would be how to kill something in the proper manner.*


But in this modern world just how many of us know how to do that.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

bird said:


> But in this modern world just how many of us know how to do that.


*
Thats true, i know i wouldn't know how to kill something humainly(sp).But having said that,if i was starving or my family were i'm not sure it would come into it.*


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> Great idea, Rick. A humane cat deterrent. You could make your fortune if it worked! (PS I thought you'd be in the naughty corner by now after the other night, repeat after me, I love pussy cats ...)


Really, you think I deserve a ban. Shame on _me _for having an opinion.

Anyway wouldn't be necessary, if enough people asked me to stop posting i'd simply bugger off.


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Rick said:


> Really, you think I deserve a ban. Shame on _me _for having an opinion.
> 
> Anyway wouldn't be necessary, if enough people asked me to stop posting i'd simply bugger off.


I wasn't being serious. Sorry. Your posts make me laugh (not this one, admittedly).


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> I wasn't being serious. Sorry. Your posts make me laugh (not this one, admittedly).


You can't win 'em all. 

It's a sensitive topic as far as i'm concerned but we shan't flog it too death. Not in this thread anyway.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

..................................


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

rona said:


> How about for the good of the species as a whole?
> What do you think would happen to say, foxes if they were allowed to breed unchecked?
> They do not stay in one territory, a vixen will have say, 5 cubs, those cubs spread out to other areas.
> What happens when they get to saturation point and over winter the food is scarce?
> ...


For the good of which species? Us or them?

From the web page you quote -


> The combination of shooting, snaring and hunting as practised in varying degrees across the country represents a well-tried management system that would be very difficult to improve. Since the banning in England, Wales and Scotland of hunting with hounds, wildlife managers have regrettably been forced to rely more heavily on the less humane methods of control namely snaring and shooting.


So are you telling me that being chased relentlessly until you are cornered and ripped apart is the most humane way we can manage these animals and there is no alternative to control their numbers? This is not a subject I have particularly researched and all I offer is my own opinion, but I thought the discussion was about using dogs to hunt, and whether there is a difference in the value of the life of a pet or a wild animal.



bird said:


> Good point there Rona, we cull the pidgeons in the city, there is no difference in maintaining the population of other animals, its just foxes etc look more cute to some and therefore worth saving a bit more  so have people in uproar


I totally accept the need to control animal populations for the benefit of public health, I totally accept the need for farmers to protect their livestock and I totally accept the need for animals to be killed in order to put food on my table. But what I can not accept is that some people will do these things, often in the cruelest manner, purely for their own personal enjoyment.


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## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

I watched Countrylife last night and they said if the Torys get in next year they have promised to make fox hunting legal again.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Oblada said:


> I did not say the OP said she fed her cats a veggie diet, I am merely struggling to see the rational in her "opinions".
> 
> Is she against killing animals generally? didnt she say that all life was equal? In which case she should not really condone killing animals for meat by buying meat for her cats and helping them get stronger at the detriment of whatever is in their food bowl...if all life is equal to her her cats should be left to fend for themselves.
> I am a realist; I am not against killing animals as we need to (if not to always feed ourselves, to feed our domesticated animals in some cases..and to protect livestock, fields etc and to avoid overpopulation etc...).
> ...


Ok, I will make this clear for you....

I feed my cats JWB dry cat food, and yes it contains MEAT!!!  My cats would have massive heath problems (then die) if I fed them on a veggie diet...

There is a food chain in the animal world, and MY cats are part of that....As I said earlier Mr Fox needs to eat.....So, do my cats......

This doesn't make me hypocritical like you are hinting at... Just realistic, regarding the animal world.....


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> For the good of which species? Us or them?
> 
> From the web page you quote -
> 
> ...


Hello Jasper...your posts on this thread are fab!!!  And welcome to Pet Forums!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> For the good of which species? Us or them?
> 
> From the web page you quote -
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> For the good of which species? Us or them?
> 
> Well for them of course, we have already done the damage and interfered with the natural order of things. We therefore have a duty to stop the vast majority from suffering, and if this involves culling (unpleasant as it is) then I can't argue against that
> 
> ...


I don't know how anyone can gain enjoyment out of killing a living creature either


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Indie said:


> I watched Countrylife last night and they said if the Torys get in next year they have promised to make fox hunting legal again.


I think I am more tory than anything else, but I don't know if they will succeed with this. It has taken so long to get a ban they wont be able to just reintroduce it like that, it was banned for a very good reason.

Off to investigate that, not impressed!!

Re hunting etc, I would quite happily let Roo go shooting, ie someone shoots the bird, killing it, and he goes and fetches it back, but that's about all he'd be allowed to do and it wouldn't be me doing the shooting. He'd be allowed to retriever and that is it, each to their own I guess, personally I think if the animal is killed humanely and without a chase it is more acceptable than in other ways.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

been a lovely morning got rain now


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

We don't have fox hunting the same as you folks over there. We use traps and guns. The wolves in Montana is a sad state of affairs it was only a few years ago they repopulated that area, as the numbers were so low. It makes one wonder why? if they were repopulating to control other animals why oh why did they not also make sure that were natural enemies there for the wolf other than humans. I enjoy Elk but I don't hunt a young friend of my sons does so his wife gave me a whole bunch, like she said he enjoys hunting and it saves on the grocery bill, but they do not believe in wasting so when she has more meat than she needs she gives it to friends. For Bears and Cougars and certain other wildlife you apply and there is x amount of people that get their name drawn. This means they are keeping track of how many are killed by humans to watch the population. Poaching is a serious offence here. This year the wild rabbit population is high but next spring it wont why cause the coyotes will take care of them this winter, then the coyotes will be higher but the rabbits will be low so the coyotes will reduce that year then the rabbits will reproduce etc etc. Nature is hard but it is the way it is. We need people who like to hunt and people who don't it evens us out....Jill


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Living in a rural area hunting is part of the lifestyle, and while i'm a vegi I have absolutely no issue with it because it's done for meat. Anyone that can catch and kill their own dinner is fine in my eyes cos that's what nature is all about. What I do object to is those who hunt for 'fun' those are the people I'd like to chase across and open field with a pack of dogs baying at their heels. We do not have fox hunting here, haven't had it for years the local Drag Hunt is extreamly well supported and has absolutely no need or want to make a defenseless animal suffer for human's idea of fun. Personally I love the way of life we have because it's as natural as possible and the majority of people who hunt do it for the right reason's. My dogs hunt for their own food and if they do actually catch something I make damn sure they eat it, I will not have them do it for fun. They eat the pheasants from the estate which are excess to the requirements after the shoot so none of the animals are killed unnecessary. 

I find it amusing that so many people who object strongly to hunting quiet happily tuck into a piece of lamb or pork from the supermarket...if you only saw what those poor animals are subjected to and the suffering they experience in their sad little lives!! Or next time you plaster on the make up from L'orel or some such company, think about the animals that suffered and STILL suffer so you can wear it. THEN try to tell me that hunting a bird that has lived it's natural life as free creature is cruel! :frown2:


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

JSR said:


> Or next time you plaster on the make up from L'orel or some such company, think about the animals that suffered and STILL suffer so you can wear it.


Don't wear make up or use products my companies who test on animals, Lush are my best friend!

I'm confused whether the hunting we are referring to is humanely killing and or chasing and having animals kill?


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

JSR said:


> I find it amusing that so many people who object strongly to hunting quiet happily tuck into a piece of lamb or pork from the supermarket


I wonder if it's like when Homer eats Pinchy the lobster?!


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, I will make this clear for you....
> 
> I feed my cats JWB dry cat food, and yes it contains MEAT!!!  My cats would have massive heath problems (then die) if I fed them on a veggie diet...
> 
> ...


If you are not hypocritical then it means you must logically agree to killing animals to feed your pets... 
So in that way I would suggest that you value your cats life higher than the lives of those animals killed to feed them (animals your cats would have been unlikely to kill on their own in most instances).
If you agree with killing animals at least for that purpose then you cant completely oppose hunting which can be a very humane way to kill...

To be honest I am still struggling to understand what exactly you disagree with in hunting...


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, I will make this clear for you....
> 
> I feed my cats JWB dry cat food, and yes it contains MEAT!!!  My cats would have massive heath problems (then die) if I fed them on a veggie diet...
> 
> ...


What goes in this food?
Mice and songbirds, that is the natural food chain for your cats :001_tt2:



Oblada said:


> If you are not hypocritical then it means you must logically agree to killing animals to feed your pets...
> So in that way I would suggest that you value your cats life higher than the lives of those animals killed to feed them (animals your cats would have been unlikely to kill on their own in most instances).


Well said


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> For the good of which species? Us or them?
> 
> I totally accept the need to control animal populations for the benefit of public health, I totally accept the need for farmers to protect their livestock and I totally accept the need for animals to be killed in order to put food on my table. But what I can not accept is that some people will do these things, often in the cruelest manner, purely for their own personal enjoyment.


The culling that goes on is for the most part tho I admit not all for the animals good, weeding out old etc

No-one here is that is pro hunt is hunt for the sake of, the vast majority of us has said that providing the animal is killed humanely and is eaten then as far as most of us are concerned its ok,

Welcome to the madhouse by the way.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Rick said:


> I wonder if it's like when Homer eats Pinchy the lobster?!


hi rick hows things i like lobster


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Never had it. Im not into eating anything fishy.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Well blood* mr fox was at my guineas again last night and there is foxes poo everywhere,, I am sorry but bordie feel free to come and blow the buggars to kindom come,, 

Now i love my foxes but we have had deep respect for each other for over a year, but now a new fox is on the sence and it has gone tits up and i am not going through picking up pieces of guineas and comforting my children over a couple of vermin


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Rick said:


> Never had it. Im not into eating anything fishy.


 its fishy on here sometimes


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## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

piggybaker said:


> Well blood* mr fox was at my guineas again last night and there is foxes poo everywhere,, I am sorry but bordie feel free to come and blow the buggars to kindom come,,
> 
> Now i love my foxes but we have had deep respect for each other for over a year, but now a new fox is on the sence and it has gone tits up and i am not going through picking up pieces of guineas and comforting my children over a couple of vermin


poor piggys how many did you loose?


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Aww poor piggies. I know how you feel there was some quite near us the other night, think they were a couple of gardens away and making a right noise. My o/h said they would be mating. I'm not concerned for my piggies cos they are all in hutches in the shed but I'm scared for my rabbits cos I haven't got a shed to put them in. I love foxes but if they got any of my pets I would be feeling the same as you I'm afraid.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Indie said:


> poor piggys how many did you loose?


No he didn't get them but has been trying very hard, pulled water bottles off knocked in wire usal fox damage,, cages like fort knox now, moving them down to the back door tommorrow as it is the weekend, but i just feel like i shouldn't have to do this, they love where they are sunshine in the morning and chatting to the birds on the feeder, now they are just going to have a fence to stare at,


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## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

piggybaker said:


> No he didn't get them but has been trying very hard, pulled water bottles off knocked in wire usal fox damage,, cages like fort knox now, moving them down to the back door tommorrow as it is the weekend, but i just feel like i shouldn't have to do this, they love where they are sunshine in the morning and chatting to the birds on the feeder, now they are just going to have a fence to stare at,


Phew, i can see what you mean, i no it will be hassle but couldn't you move to their spot in a morning and back to the other place at night.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Indie said:


> Phew, i can see what you mean, i no it will be hassle but couldn't you move to their spot in a morning and back to the other place at night.


Would love to do that, but they are in there winter hutches which are big solid things and its a 2 man job to move them, but to be honest i will enjoy them being outside the back door, they do make cheerful little noises.

And now i am starting a new job I can't even leave them in the runs all day as i can't keep an eye on them,, it is just not fair on them


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

piggybaker said:


> Would love to do that, but they are in there winter hutches which are big solid things and its a 2 man job to move them, but to be honest i will enjoy them being outside the back door, they do make cheerful little noises.
> 
> And now i am starting a new job I can't even leave them in the runs all day as i can't keep an eye on them,, it is just not fair on them


he will be back he wont give up:mad2:


----------



## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

piggybaker said:


> Would love to do that, but they are in there winter hutches which are big solid things and its a 2 man job to move them, but to be honest i will enjoy them being outside the back door, they do make cheerful little noises.
> 
> And now i am starting a new job I can't even leave them in the runs all day as i can't keep an eye on them,, it is just not fair on them


That's a bummer i love the noises piggys make.


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

borderer said:


> he will be back he wont give up:mad2:


Mmmm i know,, I am going to get my son to pee all over the patio tommorrow then borrow mums dog only a shitzue but hoping his pee will help,

Going to ask my nieces BF over he has a shot gun to do the deed i think.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Jazzy said:


> Aww poor piggies. I know how you feel there was some quite near us the other night, think they were a couple of gardens away and making a right noise. My o/h said they would be mating. I'm not concerned for my piggies cos they are all in hutches in the shed but I'm scared for my rabbits cos I haven't got a shed to put them in. I love foxes but if they got any of my pets I would be feeling the same as you I'm afraid.


Foxes usually mate in December and January. They were probably scrapping over some food. 
Hope it wasn't someones pet :devil:


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

piggybaker said:


> Mmmm i know,, I am going to get my son to pee all over the patio tommorrow then borrow mums dog only a shitzue but hoping his pee will help,
> 
> Going to ask my nieces BF over he has a shot gun to do the deed i think.


dog wont work shotgun will:thumbup1:


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

borderer said:


> dog wont work shotgun will:thumbup1:


MMmmm I am beging to come round to your way of thinking, And he gets the cats i will shoot the buggar myself


----------



## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

piggybaker said:


> Mmmm i know,, I am going to get my son to pee all over the patio tommorrow then borrow mums dog only a shitzue but hoping his pee will help,
> 
> Going to ask my nieces BF over he has a shot gun to do the deed i think.


I have heard that people have used human hair tied in clumps to deter foxes(cuttings from hairdresser).

Never tried it myself,we prefer a rifle


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

bucksmum said:


> I have heard that people have used human hair tied in clumps to deter foxes(cuttings from hairdresser).
> 
> Never tried it myself,we prefer a rifle


 ...........


----------



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Hello Jasper...your posts on this thread are fab!!!  And welcome to Pet Forums!





Acacia86 said:


> Great post!





bird said:


> Welcome to the madhouse by the way.


Thank you all, it is great to be here, am having a ball!!!



Oblada said:


> If you are not hypocritical then it means you must logically agree to killing animals to feed your pets...
> So in that way I would suggest that you value your cats life higher than the lives of those animals killed to feed them (animals your cats would have been unlikely to kill on their own in most instances).
> If you agree with killing animals at least for that purpose then you cant completely oppose hunting which can be a very humane way to kill...
> 
> To be honest I am still struggling to understand what exactly you disagree with in hunting...


How can you possibly consider eating meat to be an endorsement of blood sports?

Commercial meat is very strictly monitored in this country, both throughout its life as well as its death and if any part of the process does not meet the standard then the meat cannot be sold. Lets not beat about the bush, these animals are raised to be killed and eaten, but what has to be done is done in such a way as to be as painless and as humane as possible.

This is a world away from torturing an animal to death for pleasure. Yes hunting can be done humanely and yes some people hunt to eat, but can you honestly describe traditional fox hunting as a humane death which is a necessary evil? As I understand it, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, traditional fox hunting involves the hounds trapping the prey and then killing it. Some may argue that this is no different to any other death in the natural world where animals kill each other every day, but we are not talking about the natural world are we, we are talking about the human world and is that not the distinction that sets us apart?


----------



## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

rona said:


> Foxes usually mate in December and January. They were probably scrapping over some food.
> Hope it wasn't someones pet :devil:


Yes that's what I was thinking.  They were doing that horrible barking too. I was scared to go to bed in case they came after my rabbits.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Thank you all, it is great to be here, am having a ball!!!
> 
> How can you possibly consider eating meat to be an endorsement of blood sports?
> 
> ...


Sorry but this is very ill informed. If you have ever worked in the farming industry. Some of the animals lead totally miserable lives and then they die 
Why people keep on about hunting with hounds I will never know, when far more foxes suffer for far longer trapped in snares. *THAT IS WHAT YOU SHOULD ALL BE FIGHTING AGAINST* 
Animals suffer for hours in abject fear trapped in these cruel devices


----------



## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Commercial meat is very strictly monitored in this country, both throughout its life as well as its death and if any part of the process does not meet the standard then the meat cannot be sold. Lets not beat about the bush, these animals are raised to be killed and eaten, but what has to be done is done in such a way as to be as painless and as humane as possible.


I wish I could be as confident as you on this point. From what I have read, there is monstrous ill-treatment of animals in slaughterhouses, not to mention in the way they are reared to a great extent. (I am vehemently anti-hunting and a lifelong vegetarian by the way.) To me, there is a moral dilemma about keeping cats, so I prefer not to think about what's in the tin or where it came from, so, yes, I'm afraid I am a bit of a hypocrite.


----------



## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

rona said:


> Sorry but this is very ill informed. If you have ever worked in the farming industry. Some of the animals lead totally miserable lives and then they die
> Why people keep on about hunting with hounds I will never know, when far more foxes suffer for far longer trapped in snares. *THAT IS WHAT YOU SHOULD ALL BE FIGHTING AGAINST*
> Animals suffer for hours in abject fear trapped in these cruel devices


Are snares still legal? You're right, that's even worse than hunting.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

rona said:


> Sorry but this is very ill informed. If you have ever worked in the farming industry. Some of the animals lead totally miserable lives and then they die
> Why people keep on about hunting with hounds I will never know, when far more foxes suffer for far longer trapped in snares. *THAT IS WHAT YOU SHOULD ALL BE FIGHTING AGAINST*
> Animals suffer for hours in abject fear trapped in these cruel devices


I agree the traps are inhumane as well! And when hunted for HOURS by hounds they are not subjected to "abject fear"????????? Then torn from limb from limb? Not always killed outright, before this happens....


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I agree the traps are inhumane as well! And when hunted for HOURS by hounds they are not subjected to "abject fear"????????? Then torn from limb from limb? Not always killed outright, before this happens....


what can we say the expert on wildlife has spoken


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

rona said:


> I don't know how anyone can gain enjoyment out of killing a living creature either


Borderer and his harem do....


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Borderer and his harem do....


the voice of wisdom speaks again


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


> what can we say the expert on wildlife has spoken


I may not be a wildlife expert.....But I have a keen sense of what is right or wrong....

It seems you have taken to hunting down human meat, over the internet....Does my blood smell nice?


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Borderer and his harem do....


I dont think ive read (ive not read all the thread) anywhere where people said they enjoyed killing wildlife. Ive seen people say they do it out of necessity but not out of enjoyment


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I may not be a wildlife expert.....But I have a keen sense of what is right or wrong....
> 
> It seems you have taken to hunting down human meat, over the internet....Does my blood smell nice?


I dont think you have been hunted down in this instance you started a thread and asked opinions


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Borderer and his harem do....


There are a lot of people who do, the fact that I can't understand it, doesn't make me right or them wrong.


----------



## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> I dont think ive read (ive not read all the thread)


There just isn't the time is there?
it's a good job we don't all start a thread when someone rubs us up the wrong way.


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Rick said:


> There just isn't the time is there?
> it's a good job we don't all start a thread when someone rubs us up the wrong way.


No there isnt time, its several point repeated over and over again, ive read a few pages and got the jist


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Oblada said:


> If you are not hypocritical then it means you must logically agree to killing animals to feed your pets...
> So in that way I would suggest that you value your cats life higher than the lives of those animals killed to feed them (animals your cats would have been unlikely to kill on their own in most instances).
> If you agree with killing animals at least for that purpose then you cant completely oppose hunting which can be a very humane way to kill...
> 
> To be honest I am still struggling to understand what exactly you disagree with in hunting...


Nope!!! You are trying to put words in my mouth...which isn't cool....

I myself do not eat meat EVER and will NEVER agree with hunting....


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I agree the traps are inhumane as well! And when hunted for HOURS by hounds they are not subjected to "abject fear"????????? Then torn from limb from limb? Not always killed outright, before this happens....


I believe the only fear would be in the last few seconds, maybe minutes.
Just my opinion though


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

rona said:


> There are a lot of people who do, the fact that I can't understand it, doesn't make me right or them wrong.


if everyone didnt hunt there would be an over population, the animals would starve. the prices we pay for bread ect would be alot higher. I dont hunt myself but have respect for people that do, some animals enjoy doing it aslong as whats killed is used then i have no problems


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Rick said:


> There just isn't the time is there?
> it's a good job we don't all start a thread when someone rubs us up the wrong way.


think she needs rubbing up nthe wrong wayshe might get out a bit


----------



## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> if everyone didnt hunt there would be an over population, the animals would starve. the prices we pay for bread ect would be alot higher. I dont hunt myself but have respect for people that do, some animals enjoy doing it aslong as whats killed is used then i have no problems


Thank goodness  another sensible post


----------



## Becki&Daisy (Oct 22, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I do think you are extreme in your views!
> 
> I dont think you are open minded enough to respect other peoples choices. I just had a gander at what went on between you and BM and I have to say you were no better and defiently not acting like an adult.
> 
> ...


hunting is a very sensitive issue. those who do hunt must be prepared to face the upset and opposition this will have.... it doesn't necessarily make them bad people but they do something alot of people dislike and oppose.
i agree that a pets life is no more important or valuable then that of a wild animal.
i am anti-hunting but not actively it's something that i disagree with morally.
if you're hard enough to take an animals life you're hard enough to take the abuse you're likely to receive for doing so. 
this is probably not the best place to talk about hunting as as mentioned this is an animal lovers forum not i love my pet and thats all forum 
no need to get b*tchy about it all


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Nope!!! You are trying to put words in my mouth...which isn't cool....
> 
> I myself do not eat meat EVER and will NEVER agree with hunting....


Im not putting any words anywhere, just looking for logic....
If you feed meat to your cats you have to agree it comes from somewhere and you are responsible somehow for that animal being killed (in the natural world your cat would not have killed it) therefore you have to accept that you too are responsible for some of the animal killing that is going on...so again I am asking; what is the specific problem with hunting as opposed to other killing methods?

I am a vegetarian but also a realist....


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

A pets life is valued higher by owners than wild animals and this is simple evidenced by the fact that WE feed our pets meat from other animals and we would defend our pets if they were attacked by wild animals...

there is a certain lack of logic on one side here and I really fail to understand the point some are trying to make...
ha well!


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> I dont think you have been hunted down in this instance you started a thread and asked opinions


You haven't seen Borderers outrageously rude comments to me yesterday then?????


----------



## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Oblada said:


> in the natural world your cat would not have killed it


Given the chance it would have.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Rick said:


> Given the chance it would have.


i think she wants me rick


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## Becki&Daisy (Oct 22, 2009)

this thread is so frustrating! haha
so many people getting on their high horse!

there is a difference between hunting and farming.
the main talk was about WILD animals -im thinking fox's deers rabbits etc
farm animals are in captivity are they not? and by farm animals im thinking cows, chickens, sheep etc....


we eat as a result of farming.
our pets eat as a result of farming.
so that food nonsense is exactly that


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Borderer and his harem do....


you want to join my harem dont you want me realy


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

borderer said:


> i think she wants me rick


You know... I'm not 100% convinced!


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

borderer said:


> you want to join my harem dont you want me realy


If you can pull it off i'll be really impressed.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Oblada said:


> Im not putting any words anywhere, just looking for logic....
> If you feed meat to your cats you have to agree it comes from somewhere and you are responsible somehow for that animal being killed (in the natural world your cat would not have killed it) therefore you have to accept that you too are responsible for some of the animal killing that is going on...so again I am asking; what is the specific problem with hunting as opposed to other killing methods?
> 
> I am a vegetarian but also a realist....


Ok, if my cats were feral they would be eating wildlife, thats the animal food chain. I do not LIKE the fact I go against my principles, but my cats would die (from dilated cardiomyopathy mainly) if they didn't get meat..... So, if I didn't buy them their JWB I would be inflicting cruelty and death.....

The animal on animal food chain for survival and food, I do not judge....

However, humans DO NOT need meat to survive!

I do not like intensive farming either, its cruelty personified, so agree with you on that point....But sorry HUNTING is barbaric!!!!


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

What is the difference between farming and hunting when both are done with a purpose in mind (not fun but necessity such as food)?
In one case the animals can be anything from almost always captive to roaming in semi-freedom and are breed with human purpose in mind.
In the other case the animals enjoyed a free roaming life and were killed in a way much more akin to a predator killing...

Also if you talk about farming, it has been mentioned that hunting is sometimes necessary to protecting livestock so it is all related...


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

borderer said:


> you want to join my harem dont you want me realy


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Rick said:


> If you can pull it off i'll be really impressed.


ya can tell she wants me i have a large harem and she wants to be there


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> Borderer and his harem do....


thats borderer's choice if he likes to and his animals enjoy it then thats fine.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Becki&Daisy said:


> hunting is a very sensitive issue. those who do hunt must be prepared to face the upset and opposition this will have.... it doesn't necessarily make them bad people but they do something alot of people dislike and oppose.
> i agree that a pets life is no more important or valuable then that of a wild animal.
> i am anti-hunting but not actively it's something that i disagree with morally.
> if you're hard enough to take an animals life you're hard enough to take the abuse you're likely to receive for doing so.
> ...


Fantastic post! Point well made!


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> thats borderer's choice if he likes to and his animals enjoy it then thats fine.


agreed we all have choices, its borderers choice to hunt as its tillydream not to, who is anyone to question there lifestyles?


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, if my cats were feral they would be eating wildlife, thats the animal food chain. I do not LIKE the fact I go against my principles, but my cats would die (from dilated cardiomyopathy mainly) if they didn't get meat..... So, if I didn't buy them their JWB I would be inflicting cruelty and death.....
> 
> The animal on animal food chain for survival and food, I do not judge....
> 
> ...


SO how do you want the animals to be killed to feed your cats? is there any acceptable way?

If you did not want to go against your principles at all you would not let your cats die you would simply not have cats...


----------



## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> However, humans DO NOT need meat to survive!


Did you see my earlier post about how humans evolved better, especially mentally, when meat was in abundance?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

i love my girls on here and if tillys dreams is good i might let her in cos i know she wants to


----------



## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> agreed we all have choices, its borderers choice to hunt as its tillydream not to, who is anyone to question there lifestyles?


Yes I agree with that Claire.:thumbup1:


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, if my cats were feral they would be eating wildlife, thats the animal food chain. I do not LIKE the fact I go against my principles, but my cats would die (from dilated cardiomyopathy mainly) if they didn't get meat..... So, if I didn't buy them their JWB I would be inflicting cruelty and death.....
> 
> The animal on animal food chain for survival and food, I do not judge....
> 
> ...


I think thats what was said we do have to hold our pets in higher regard than wildlife if it means your cat dying of a heart condition then yes animals will have to be killed, thats now understanding what others have said.


----------



## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

borderer said:


> ya can tell she wants me i have a large harem and she wants to be there


How large is it?

Do you need any help managing it?


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Becki&Daisy said:


> hunting is a very sensitive issue. those who do hunt must be prepared to face the upset and opposition this will have.... it doesn't necessarily make them bad people but they do something alot of people dislike and oppose.
> i agree that a pets life is no more important or valuable then that of a wild animal.
> i am anti-hunting but not actively it's something that i disagree with morally.
> if you're hard enough to take an animals life you're hard enough to take the abuse you're likely to receive for doing so.
> ...


I wasnt being Bitchy, Ill admit Tilly does do my head in and I didnt bring up hunting.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Rick said:


> How large is it?
> 
> Do you need any help managing it?


i manage ok thanks not keen on them skinny white faced ones who only eat lettuce


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> agreed we all have choices, its borderers choice to hunt as its tillydream not to, who is anyone to question there lifestyles?


Ok, but one lifestyle inflicts pain, suffering and fear...Surely this cannot be right? Is blood shed at humans hands EVER right?


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, but one lifestyle inflicts pain, suffering and fear...Surely this cannot be right? Is blood shed at humans hands EVER right?


Part of your lifestyle is you choose to own cats, in owning them you cause theses things to feed them. so its sort of pot calling kettle imo


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, but one lifestyle inflicts pain, suffering and fear...Surely this cannot be right? Is blood shed at humans hands EVER right?


i do go out shooting most nights so yes


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


> i love my girls on here and if tillys dreams is good i might let her in cos i know she wants to


Lol, I am waaaaaaay to hot for you!!!!  I noticed you either like them VERY young  or old and wrinkly pmsl.....thats me out then....


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, but one lifestyle inflicts pain, suffering and fear...Surely this cannot be right? Is blood shed at humans hands EVER right?


thats what you feel about the subject but others feel its ok. I feel its ok to hunt its natural. there has to be some control over numbers of animals, for example Rabbits breed really fast there is too many as it is, other animals can and do suffer through them from falling down rabbit holes. id far rather they where hunted by people like borderer then be gassed as that could wipe out loads of other animals.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> Part of your lifestyle is you choose to own cats, in owning them you cause theses things to feed them. so its sort of pot calling kettle imo


Not pot and kettle at all....I have explained my reasoning already!


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Not pot and kettle at all....I have explained my reasoning already!


but you _are_ doing it, If people who hunt explain there reasons is that ok then?


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Lol, I am waaaaaaay to hot for you!!!!  I noticed you either like them VERY young  or old and wrinkly pmsl.....thats me out then....


Thanks, I'm an old wrinkly


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Lol, I am waaaaaaay to hot for you!!!!  I noticed you either like them VERY young  or old and wrinkly pmsl.....thats me out then....


ye i dont like white faced vegy eaters who fart allot but i know you want me realy


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I think thats what was said we do have to hold our pets in higher regard than wildlife if it means your cat dying of a heart condition then yes animals will have to be killed, thats now understanding what others have said.


I still don't like it....


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Not pot and kettle at all....I have explained my reasoning already!


I'm afraid it is, do you even know how those animals are reared to feed your cats?
I'm sure they don't source their chicken from free range, or worry about the welfare of the animals used


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, but one lifestyle inflicts pain, suffering and fear...Surely this cannot be right? Is blood shed at humans hands EVER right?


What about animals that are put down, because of being very ill, mentally sick, or because we dont have the resources to help them what gives humanes the right to decide that?

I dont have a say in what I eat at the moment but if I did I would eat a wide range of food. I would buy my meat from good well run places or the butchers in town. I would also by veg from farmers BUT thats isnt possible for me.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

rona said:


> Thanks, I'm an old wrinkly


We all end up that way!  x


----------



## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, but one lifestyle inflicts pain, suffering and fear...Surely this cannot be right? Is blood shed at humans hands EVER right?


A fox's lifestyle inflicts pain and suffering also.

Only a few months ago i walked into a pheasant pen and picked up 240 dead and DYING poults,some of them partially eaten and still alive.

This pen had electric fencing around it and was dug into the ground 

The only way to prevent this is to kill the fox whether that be with shotgun,rifle or dog.

The one thing i do agree with you on is the use of snares,they are inhumane


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

rona said:


> I'm afraid it is, do you even know how those animals are reared to feed your cats?I'm sure they don't source their chicken from free range, or worry about the welfare of the animals used


of course they wont rona its animal feed after all good point


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> Thanks, I'm an old wrinkly


I must be too, oh well.


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Not pot and kettle at all....I have explained my reasoning already!





ClaireLouise said:


> but you _are_ doing it, If people who hunt explain there reasons is that ok then?


...............................


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

bucksmum said:


> A fox's lifestyle inflicts pain and suffering also.
> 
> Only a few months ago i walked into a pheasant pen and picked up 240 dead and DYING poults,some of them partially eaten and still alive.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, as cats could get cought or anything i dont agree with them


----------



## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

borderer said:


> i manage ok thanks not keen on them skinny white faced ones who only eat lettuce


That sounds racist!


----------



## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

rona said:


> Thanks, I'm an old wrinkly


It's okay Rona cos I'm one too.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> What about animals that are put down, because of being very ill, mentally sick, or because we dont have the resources to help them what gives humanes the right to decide that?
> 
> I dont have a say in what I eat at the moment but if I did I would eat a wide range of food. I would buy my meat from good well run places or the butchers in town. I would also by veg from farmers BUT thats isnt possible for me.


When an animal is PTS it is a final act of kindness, to stop pain and suffering...I would never be involved with an animal PTS for no good reason....  And being PTS is painless, all be it very sad!!!! World apart from hunting....


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I must be too, oh well.





Jazzy said:


> It's okay Rona cos I'm one too.


AND BE PROUD TO HAVE GOT THERE 
Many haven't


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

The MLCSL does check all animals throughly before they are taken away to be slaughtered,after all the scares we have had in the past with BSE.
Also vegtables are also living in some way wonder if they like being eaten..
Just a thought ......wonder if thats been proven?
I eat both,but used to be a veggie.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I still don't like it....


tough


----------



## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

rona said:


> AND BE PROUD TO HAVE GOT THERE
> Many haven't


Well I wouldn't mind going a bit further...


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Colsy said:


> The MLCSL does check all animals throughly before they are taken away to be slaughtered,after all the scares we have had in the past with BSE.
> Also vegtables are also living in some way wonder if they like being eaten..
> Just a thought ......wonder if thats been proven?
> I eat both,but used to be a veggie.


very good point as they are living things.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> but you _are_ doing it, If people who hunt explain there reasons is that ok then?


Noooooooo!!! I have already told you, I do not judge the animal on animal food chain....
And have honestly answered that I do buy premium cat food with a high meat content.... How I justify that is, if my cats were feral they would be eating wildlife to survive.... Cats need meat, or I would have them a veggie like me....
Yes, I am not perfect, but have ALOT LESS BLOOD ON MY HANDS THAN MOST!!!


----------



## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Noooooooo!!! I have already told you, I do not judge the animal on animal food chain....
> And have honestly answered that I do buy premium cat food with a high meat content.... How I justify that is, if my cats were feral they would be eating wildlife to survive.... Cats need meat, or I would have them a veggie like me....
> Yes, I am not perfect, but have ALOT LESS BLOOD ON MY HANDS THAN MOST!!!


are we not part of the animal on animal food chain?


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> When an animal is PTS it is a final act of kindness, to stop pain and suffering...I would never be involved with an animal PTS for no good reason....  And being PTS is painless, all be it very sad!!!! World apart from hunting....


Even if the animal is sick or in pain what gives you the right to decide it should be put down? Even being the "smarter" beings that doesnt gives us the right to decide. It just makes us think we know whats best.


----------



## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Also vegtables are also living in some way wonder if they like being eaten..
> Just a thought ......wonder if thats been proven?


I'm pretty sure they don't mind. Having no brain or CNS. Though i'm sure some manage to post on here


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> Noooooooo!!! I have already told you, I do not judge the animal on animal food chain....
> And have honestly answered that I do buy premium cat food with a high meat content.... How I justify that is, if my cats were feral they would be eating wildlife to survive.... Cats need meat, or I would have them a veggie like me....
> Yes, I am not perfect, but have ALOT LESS BLOOD ON MY HANDS THAN MOST!!!


I feed my dogs raw meat, guess im blood hungry too.... what you have to realise is people have there own choices, we should just respect eachothers.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

rona said:


> AND BE PROUD TO HAVE GOT THERE
> Many haven't


very true rona


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Noooooooo!!! I have already told you, I do not judge the animal on animal food chain....
> And have honestly answered that I do buy premium cat food with a high meat content.... How I justify that is, if my cats were feral they would be eating wildlife to survive.... Cats need meat, or I would have them a veggie like me....
> Yes, I am not perfect, but have ALOT LESS BLOOD ON MY HANDS THAN MOST!!!


That is not a cats natural food! I find it difficult to see you being so hard on people regarding there choices in life when you are not perfect. I dont disagree with you lifestyle choices but I dont disagree with other peoples choices either.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Respect but also be open minded to other peoples choices. If you dont agree with hunting thats fine and I respect that. But maybe you could try to promote responsible ways to hunt?


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Colsy said:


> The MLCSL does check all animals throughly before they are taken away to be slaughtered,after all the scares we have had in the past with BSE.
> Also vegtables are also living in some way wonder if they like being eaten..
> Just a thought ......wonder if thats been proven?
> I eat both,but used to be a veggie.


used to try and persuade my mother that the flowers she picked were screaming in pain :devil::devil:



tillysdream said:


> Noooooooo!!! I have already told you, I do not judge the animal on animal food chain....
> And have honestly answered that I do buy premium cat food with a high meat content.... How I justify that is, if my cats were feral they would be eating wildlife to survive.... Cats need meat, or I would have them a veggie like me....
> Yes, I am not perfect, but have ALOT LESS BLOOD ON MY HANDS THAN MOST!!!


You have explained but created more questions?


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Even if the animal is sick or in pain what gives you the right to decide it should be put down? Even being the "smarter" beings that doesnt gives us the right to decide. It just makes us think we know whats best.


Ok, I will put it like this...If your cat went into congestive heart failure, a slow death of drowning in their own body fluids or CRF in its final stages (horrific) you would not allow them to be pts to save them sufferring?????


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

rona said:


> You have explained but created more questions?


I realise that Rona....I am not perfect :001_huh: I can only TRY and live my life as best I can....

The cat food is my only crime...And boy, do I feel bad about it...really I do...and understand what suffering IS behind cat food... :frown2:


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, I will put it like this...If your cat went into congestive heart failure, a slow death of drowning in their own body fluids or CRF in its final stages (horrific) you would not allow them to be pts to save them sufferring?????


so this has happened to one of yours


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I realise that Rona....I am not perfect :001_huh: I can only TRY and live my life as best I can....
> 
> The cat food is my only crime...And boy, do I feel bad about it...really I do...and understand what suffering IS behind cat food... :frown2:


yes and GOOD FOR YOU, I mean that, im proud of people who stick by what they believe in xxx BUT i dont think people who are not perfect should critise others.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I realise that Rona....I am not perfect :001_huh: I can only TRY and live my life as best I can....
> 
> The cat food is my only crime...And boy, do I feel bad about it...really I do...and understand what suffering IS behind cat food... :frown2:


Respect


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## Baby Bordie (Jun 21, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> yes and GOOD FOR YOU, I mean that, im proud of people who stick by what they believe in xxx BUT i dont think people who are not perfect should critise others.


That means no one can critisise anyone. Because not one of us is perfect.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> I feed my dogs raw meat, guess im blood hungry too.... what you have to realise is people have there own choices, we should just respect eachothers.


I am SICK of people saying I don't respect other members...Other members are arguing from their perspective, and I am arguing the opposite... Both sides are doing same imo....If thats the case there isn't many here RESPECTING my point of view....

(I will add, I have been disrespected MANY times on this thread with VERY rude comments, as per usual...I have posted without name calling and snide comments....)


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Baby Bordie said:


> That means no one can critisise anyone. Because not one of us is perfect.


Nope it does not ,it means regarding this subject I cant see how someone can critise others for hunting/farming ect but they use a produce of this in there household!


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I realise that Rona....I am not perfect :001_huh: I can only TRY and live my life as best I can....
> 
> The cat food is my only crime...And boy, do I feel bad about it...really I do...and understand what suffering IS behind cat food... :frown2:


get your cat food fresh from a hunter he kills fast with no suffering


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> I am SICK of people saying I don't respect other members...Other members are arguing for from their perspective, and I am arguing the opposite... Both sides are doing same imo....If thats the case there isn't many here RESPECTING my point of view....
> 
> (I will add, I have been disrespected MANY times on this thread with VERY rude comments, as per usual...I have posted without name calling and snide comments....)


well ive never disrespected you or your views. I do however feel you try and push your opinions down peoples necks. almost seems like you provolk people. just how i see it sorry if i offend.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ok, I will put it like this...If your cat went into congestive heart failure, a slow death of drowning in their own body fluids or CRF in its final stages (horrific) you would not allow them to be pts to save them sufferring?????


Yes I would it would break my heart and I have already had to put one cat down in the past which was my mistake. BUT what gives me that RIGHT?


----------



## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Also vegtables are also living in some way wonder if they like being eaten..


I buy my pasties from a vegan shop called The Screaming Carrot!


----------



## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I am SICK of people saying I don't respect other members...Other members are arguing for from their perspective, and I am arguing the opposite... Both sides are doing same imo....If thats the case there isn't many here RESPECTING my point of view....
> 
> (I will add, I have been disrespected MANY times on this thread with VERY rude comments, as per usual...I have posted without name calling and snide comments....)


when reading this thread i see alot of people (myself included) taking what you and (others with opinions that differ to mine) say onboard and are willing to consider other sides to the arguement.. I don't see the same willingness to accept other's points of view from yourself, i understand you feel strongly for what you believe in, and correct me if i am wrong, but i don't see where you have any undestanding for views other than ones that agree with yours.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> Nope it does not ,it means regarding this subject I cant see how someone can critise others for hunting/farming ect but they use a produce of this in there household!


I said I don't like it!!!! I am waiting for the day a company come up with a cat food that has synthetic meat, then I will be perfect :aureola:

I can still argue that hunting is bad in the meantime!!!!!


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> well ive never disrespected you or your views. I do however feel you try and push your opinions down peoples necks. almost seems like you provolk people. just how i see it sorry if i offend.


well said rep given


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

she has a sad life sitting all day thinking how she can start a war think she should get out more


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

borderer said:


> get your cat food fresh from a hunter he kills fast with no suffering


I see your point and appreciate it! But I don't agree with feeding cats raw... Seen too many ill cats in practice, due to this...Its a very tricky balance to get right.... Lots of dangers


----------



## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

I think we all have different views on different subjects.
But at the end of the day we all have to eat to survive ,no matter if its meat or veg.
So please can we keep this friendly ta.
I aint got no more money to buy a round in again lol.


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I see your point and appreciate it! But I don't agree with feeding cats raw... Seen too many ill cats in practice, due to this...Its very tricky balance to get right.... Lots of dangers


I agree regarding feeding raw


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> I see your point and appreciate it! But I don't agree with feeding cats raw... Seen too many ill cats in practice, due to this...Its very tricky balance to get right.... Lots of dangers


i know what your saying but raw as extra dosent hurt as thats what mine get.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I see your point and appreciate it! But I don't agree with feeding cats raw... Seen too many ill cats in practice, due to this...Its very tricky balance to get right.... Lots of dangers


cook it......................


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Yes I would it would break my heart and I have already had to put one cat down in the past which was my mistake. BUT what gives me that RIGHT?


To prevent suffering surely?



lifeizsweet said:


> when reading this thread i see alot of people (myself included) taking what you and (others with opinions that differ to mine) say onboard and are willing to consider other sides to the arguement.. I don't see the same willingness to accept other's points of view from yourself, i understand you feel strongly for what you believe in, and correct me if i am wrong, but i don't see where you have any undestanding for views other than ones that agree with yours.


Tillysdream has understood my argument on killing rats with terriers rather than poison, but would prefer it wasn't the way it is, even though we don't agree I have received nothing but respect from her


----------



## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I see your point and appreciate it! But I don't agree with feeding cats raw... Seen too many ill cats in practice, due to this...Its very tricky balance to get right.... Lots of dangers


So cook the meat?


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> well ive never disrespected you or your views. I do however feel you try and push your opinions down peoples necks. almost seems like you provolk people. just how i see it sorry if i offend.


No...I very rarely post threads... It just seems cos my views are extreme, people react strongly to them...And i have to then fire fight....

A good man who preached love, was crucified.....

Evil will always try to "dispatch of" good...


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

rona said:


> To prevent suffering surely?
> 
> Tillysdream has understood my argument on killing rats with terriers rather than poison, but would prefer it wasn't the way it is, even though we don't agree I have received nothing but respect from her


I stand corrected.


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

borderer said:


> cook it......................


What? The cat?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> I buy my pasties from a vegan shop called The Screaming Carrot!


Love it :lol::lol::lol:


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> No...I very rarely post threads... It just seems cos my views are extreme, people react strongly to them...And i have to then fire fight....
> 
> And good man who preached love, was crucified.....
> 
> Evil will always try to "dispatch of" good...


most of the threads ive read from you are threads on touchy subjects. just because you have strong views dosent mean others wont, if you cant agree just agree to disagree.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

lifeizsweet said:


> when reading this thread i see alot of people (myself included) taking what you and (others with opinions that differ to mine) say onboard and are willing to consider other sides to the arguement.. I don't see the same willingness to accept other's points of view from yourself, i understand you feel strongly for what you believe in, and correct me if i am wrong, but i don't see where you have any undestanding for views other than ones that agree with yours.


You clearly haven't read ALL the thread...

I have conceded on several points....


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

Rick said:


> What? The cat?


 Bl**dy hell, i've just spat red wine all over my dog


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

rona said:


> To prevent suffering surely?
> 
> Tillysdream has understood my argument on killing rats with terriers rather than poison, but would prefer it wasn't the way it is, even though we don't agree I have received nothing but respect from her


I agree to prevent suffering but what do we determine as suffering?

Where do we have the right to jump in and say nows the time:001_unsure:

Tilly may understand your argument but she doesnt seem to do the same with others


----------



## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

bucksmum said:


> Bl**dy hell, i've just spat red wine all over my dog


White removes the red.
Or even better lick it off,please dont waste it .


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

bucksmum said:


> Bl**dy hell, i've just spat red wine all over my dog


Marinade. I like it!


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> most of the threads ive read from you are threads on touchy subjects. just because you have strong views dosent mean others wont, if you cant agree just agree to disagree.


I think EVERYBODY on this forum is guilty of what you are accusing me of..

And sorry, I think up good and interesting threads...

Maybe I should post on what I am having for my dinner or Jeremy Kyle, to keep everybody happy....


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

bucksmum said:


> Bl**dy hell, i've just spat red wine all over my dog


Oh, don't encourage him, it will end in tears. (We don't mention cats in front of Rick.) THAT WAS A JOKE RICK.


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> I think EVERYBODY on this forum is guilty of what you are accusing me of..
> 
> And sorry, I think up good and interesting threads...
> 
> Maybe I should post on what I am having for my dinner or Jeremy Kyle, to keep everybody happy....


Im no saying dont post, I dont argue, i dont see the point everyone has there opinions and i have to respect that so i just say agree to disagree now, theres no point


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> You clearly haven't read ALL the thread...
> 
> I have conceded on several points....


If you read further down the page to Rona's comment i said i stand corrected, appologies.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

lifeizsweet said:


> If you read further down the page to Rona's comment i said i stand corrected, appologies.


Thanks, thats good of you! x Its a LONG thread, I realise not everybody will read it ALL before posting!


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I agree to prevent suffering but what do we determine as suffering?
> 
> Where do we have the right to jump in and say nows the time:001_unsure:
> 
> Tilly may understand your argument but she doesnt seem to do the same with others


We all have to make that difficult decision at some time, hopefully we will get it right but it is not ever going to be 100%.
We just have to cope with the fact that we did it for the right reasons and hope that we have prevented any more suffering.
I make that decision quite often with rabbits with myxy


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> Oh, don't encourage him, it will end in tears. (We don't mention cats in front of Rick.)


Don't mention the cat's behind me either!



> THAT WAS A JOKE RICK.


They've built the 'joke Rick'! I thought that was just a rumour.


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Thanks, thats good of you! x Its a LONG thread, I realise not everybody will read it ALL before posting!


I try, but so much goes one while one if offline it's so hard to keep up, especially as a thread progresses when you're online too!


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

I think Tillydream has been very polite though this whole thread, cant same the same for a couple of others, so she has extreme views thats her right , i also dont think a person who kills for pleasure is an animal lover at heart, its been a good thread all the way though good debate and not much arguing, which is great for pf , people will always have opinions that differ, but to be able to put our own views on open forum is what i always though they were for, this has been a great thread and may we have many others like it,


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2009)

jeanie said:


> I think Tillydream has been very polite though this whole thread, cant same the same for a couple of others, so she has extreme views thats her right , i also dont think a person who kills for pleasure is an animal lover at heart, its been a good thread all the way though good debate and not much arguing, which is great for pf , people will always have opinions that differ, but to be able to put our own views on open forum is what i always though they were for, this has been a great thread and may we have many others like it,


Seconded


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

its been a good debate...


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

jeanie said:


> I think Tillydream has been very polite though this whole thread, cant same the same for a couple of others, so she has extreme views thats her right , i also dont think a person who kills for pleasure is an animal lover at heart, its been a good thread all the way though good debate and not much arguing, which is great for pf , people will always have opinions that differ, but to be able to put our own views on open forum is what i always though they were for, this has been a great thread and may we have many others like it,





rona said:


> Seconded


Thank you both!  (Blushing)....


----------



## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

bucksmum said:


> Bl**dy hell, i've just spat red wine all over my dog


That's a waste of red wine.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Where are we on this thread?


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Where are we on this thread?


I think everybody's agreed to differ (and we veggies are just waiting for the scientists to develop that test-tube petfood, then we can really take the moral high ground).


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> I think everybody's agreed to differ (and we veggies are just waiting for the scientists to develop that test-tube petfood, then we can really take the moral high ground).


Lol...:


----------



## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

Jazzy said:


> That's a waste of red wine.


I know  you ever tried sucking a jack russell??

Just can't bring myself to do it personally


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

bucksmum said:


> I know  you ever tried sucking a jack russell??
> 
> Just can't bring myself to do it personally


i think you might wanna re word that before a witty comment comes lol.


----------



## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> I think everybody's agreed to differ (and we veggies are just waiting for the scientists to develop that test-tube petfood, then we can really take the moral high ground).


I wouldn't put my faith in the scientists. Everything else they have developed has led to cancer.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> i think you might wanna re word that before a witty comment comes lol.


Pmsl....agreed! I suppose it is late enough (after 11pm) for x rated animal loving talk!!!


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

jeanie said:


> I think Tillydream has been very polite though this whole thread, cant same the same for a couple of others, so she has extreme views thats her right , i also dont think a person who kills for pleasure is an animal lover at heart, its been a good thread all the way though good debate and not much arguing, which is great for pf , people will always have opinions that differ, but to be able to put our own views on open forum is what i always though they were for, this has been a great thread and may we have many others like it,


I don't agree with this as I know a lot of hunters and they love animals. Several opf them have family members that can not eat grocery store meat so they hunt wild meat. No additives etc. I do not hunt and do not like to hunt but do not see any problem with hunting in the right way eg: to protect your own (animals, Family, farm land) or for food. Hunting just for the sake of hunting I don't agree with or for a set of antlers....Jill


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

bucksmum said:


> I know  you ever tried sucking a jack russell??
> 
> Just can't bring myself to do it personally


  

No I think I might pass on that one...


----------



## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> I think everybody's agreed to differ


Yep. You can own a pet but as long as you eat it afterwards that's OK.

Is that about the size of it?


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Rick said:


> Yep. You can own a pet but as long as you eat it afterwards that's OK.
> 
> Is that about the size of it?


i think ive lost the plot with this post.


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I also think for the most part this has been a great thread of debating and its also good that alot of people eg: Borderer and Tillysdream both have strong opinions on opposite sides of the debate and a lot of us are kinda in the middle....Jill If we all agreed on everything this would not be a good world that we live in


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> i think ive lost the plot with this post.


but at least it's clean, which is more than can be said for some of the other posts.


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

Rick said:


> Yep. You can own a pet but as long as you eat it afterwards that's OK.
> 
> Is that about the size of it?


Oh ok, does sucking count???


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok! Fair enough!

Can you believe i typed a huge post this afternoon and the *beeping* interent crashed (grrrr, my dad needs to sort his t'inernet out! It would have happened with mine!!) 

Although just as well it didn't send! I think a lot of people would have serious blood pressure issues! 

(reminder to self: save it! )


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

bucksmum said:


> Oh ok, does sucking count???


Erm! I dunno. Can you elaborate?


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Rick said:


> Yep. You can own a pet but as long as you eat it afterwards that's OK.
> 
> Is that about the size of it?


What?! I don't get that?!!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Lulu's owner said:


> but at least it's clean, which is more than can be said for some of the other posts.


what do you mean??


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> what do you mean??


Oh, sorry, thought I spotted the odd double (or treble) entendre for a moment, perish the thought.


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> What?! I don't get that?!!


Well apparently using and abusing animals is a no no (for whatever reason), unless you are doing it for food. Then it all becomes OK.


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

Rick said:


> Erm! I dunno. Can you elaborate?


Just a desperate suggestion to not waste the red wine i spat all over my dog


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

bucksmum said:


> Just a desperate suggestion to not waste the red wine i spat all over my dog


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Hope it's not a white dog.


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

bucksmum said:


> Just a desperate suggestion to not waste the red wine i spat all over my dog


That's fair enough. There is absolutely no excuse for wasting red wine. How does you dog react to being sucked in that way?


----------



## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

bucksmum said:


> Just a desperate suggestion to not waste the red wine i spat all over my dog


Also saves the dog from getting p*ssed when it washes itself.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Rick said:


> That's fair enough. There is absolutely no excuse for wasting red wine. How does you dog react to being sucked in that way?


You guys make me giggle...........Jill


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Rick said:


> That's fair enough. There is absolutely no excuse for wasting red wine. How does you dog react to being sucked in that way?


I agree - red wine is sacred.


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

Rick said:


> That's fair enough. There is absolutely no excuse for wasting red wine. How does you dog react to being sucked in that way?


He would rather be hunting 

Yes,he is a white dog,well he was,bit pinky now


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Ok! Fair enough!
> 
> Can you believe i typed a huge post this afternoon and the *beeping* interent crashed (grrrr, my dad needs to sort his t'inernet out! It would have happened with mine!!)
> 
> ...


Damn...would have loved to have seen your post!!!


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

bucksmum said:


> Yes,he is a white dog,well he was,bit pinky now


I'm sure your dog doesn't mind a bit of pink.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Rick said:


> Well apparently using and abusing animals is a no no (for whatever reason), unless you are doing it for food. Then it all becomes OK.


If you mean killing animals.......then yes i agree (in todays society) that killing should only be for food. Nothing else.

If thats not what you mean....sorry


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> If you mean killing animals.......then yes i agree (in todays society) that killing should only be for food. Nothing else.


What if we weren't in 'today's society'? Surely you either agree or you don't.



> If thats not what you mean....sorry


It isn't about me. It is what I have deduced from what others have posted.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Rick said:


> What if we weren't in 'today's society'? Surely you either agree or you don't.
> 
> No i wouldn't......if we go back enough.
> 
> It isn't about me. It is what I have deduced from what others have posted.


Well i am sorry.


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Rick said:


> What if we weren't in 'today's society'? Surely you either agree or you don't.


Let me translate. I think it means, "In tomorrow's society, we'll all be vegans, matey."


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Sorry for what? Now I don't understand!


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> Let me translate. I think it means, "In tomorrow's society, we'll all be vegans, matey."


I have tried to be vegetarian in the past, for what it's worth.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> Let me translate. I think it means, "In tomorrow's society, we'll all be vegans, matey."


Thats what I am hoping for....x


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Lulu's owner said:


> Let me translate. I think it means, "In tomorrow's society, we'll all be vegans, matey."


If you are on about what i said then you might find i was talking about the past............not the future! And i never mentioned Veganism.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I am now officially lost...


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> I am now officially lost...


LMFAO!!!!

Glad it's not just me!


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

It would be much easier to take pills as food instead.
Saves on cooking and washing up.


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> If you are on about what i said then you might find i was talking about the past............not the future! And i never mentioned Veganism.


Where people vegetarians in the past? But not vegan?


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> If you are on about what i said then you might find i was talking about the past............not the future! And i never mentioned Veganism.


Well, you used the word "should" rather than "ought", and unfortunately some of us, me for instance, have a pedantic nature. Grammatically speaking, the structure of your sentence appeared to be contrasting the present with a future rather than a past event. Not to worry, just a slight misunderstanding.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Colsy said:


> It would be much easier to take pills as food instead.Saves on cooking and washing up.


pmsl yeah and less temptation to eat


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

DKDREAM said:


> pmsl yeah and less temptation to eat


I would have to have chocolate pills its a must.


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> I am now officially lost...


Me too - and I have read every page of this thread!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Colsy said:


> I would have to have chocolate pills its a must.


pmsl. dunkable ones?


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Rick said:


> Where people vegetarians in the past? But not vegan?


No they weren't we were Omnivores. We foraged and we did eat small animals.

But we were nothing like we are today.............


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## Cazza1974 (Sep 23, 2009)

Colsy said:


> I would have to have chocolate pills its a must.


Me too


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Colsy said:


> I would have to have chocolate pills its a must.


Now thats a good idea no dishes and chocolate flavoured...Jill


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> Well, you used the word "should" rather than "ought",


I did some things that I shoudn't have ought to....

Oops came over a bit Russel Brand there!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> Now thats a good idea no dishes and chocolate flavoured...Jill


If the man above were female everything would taste like Chocolate!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry....


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> If the man above were female everything would taste like Chocolate!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Sorry....


LOL.................


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I wouldnt kill anything for entertainment or sport - but I'm a meat eater so obviously not opposed to killing for food. However I'm a total hypocrite cos if I had to kill it myself to eat it then I'd be a veggie


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Lulu's owner said:


> Well, you used the word "should" rather than "ought", and unfortunately some of us, me for instance, have a pedantic nature. Grammatically speaking, the structure of your sentence appeared to be contrasting the present with a future rather than a past event. Not to worry, just a slight misunderstanding.


I am not sure what you find so confusing!

In that post.........i meant:

To kill there has to be reason............like food issues.


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> No they weren't we were Omnivores. We foraged and we did eat small animals.
> 
> But we were nothing like we are today.............


How did we differ from today?


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I am not sure what you find so confusing!
> 
> In that post.........i meant:
> 
> To kill there has to be reason............like food issues.


I'm going to give up trying to make jokes from now on. I understand what I'm on about, even if nobody else does.


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

Rick said:


> How did we differ from today?


We are not allowed to club our women any more, rick - to sleep with them now we use drugs


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Sylvestris Kennels said:


> We are not allowed to club our women any more, rick - to sleep with them now we use drugs


LOL Thats bad LOL....Jill ps I'll have to tell my o/h that one


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Sylvestris Kennels said:


> We are not allowed to club our women any more, rick - to sleep with them now we use drugs


**** that. Surely charm is all that's required?


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Sylvestris Kennels said:


> We are not allowed to club our women any more, rick - to sleep with them now we use drugs


Funny..pmsl...  but sick if your a woman this has happened to...


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## Cazza1974 (Sep 23, 2009)

Rick said:


> **** that. Surely charm is all that's required?


Depends how good the charm is


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Rick said:


> How did we differ from today?


A lot.

I will re-type my post (that got deleted my dads sh*t computer), but don't expect it tonight.

Although it depends how far you want to go...i can go pretty far back.


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Funny..pmsl...  *but sick if your a woman this has happened to*...


True - sorry


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> Funny..pmsl...  but sick if your a woman this has happened to...


I am glad people find it funny.

In reality its different.


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

The further back you go, the less relevant it gets IMO.


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

Rick said:


> **** that. Surely charm is all that's required?


Charm????:confused5: I lost that when I lost my favourite bracelet


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Rick said:


> The further back you go, the less relevant it gets IMO.


Why? Thats where we started?

Whatever anyway, i am not in the mood to argue or even defend my opinions! I will type it tomorrow.


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## Lulu's owner (May 1, 2009)

Rick said:


> The further back you go, the less relevant it gets IMO.


Yes, this thread seems to have just about run its course now that everybody's wisecracking about chocolate and stuff. It seems to take forever to come up on screen again now there's about 600 posts unless that's just my laptop playing up.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Why? Thats where we started?
> 
> Whatever anyway, i am not in the mood to argue or even defend my opinions! I will type it tomorrow.


He tried it with me, just don't rise to it sweetie


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

Lulu's owner said:


> Yes, this thread seems to have just about run its course now that everybody's wisecracking about chocolate and stuff. It seems to take forever to come up on screen again now there's about 600 posts unless that's just my laptop playing up.


Nope - its the server sending out all the update e-mails to everybody - thats why the website runs slow everyday at this time.


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Why? Thats where we started?
> 
> Whatever anyway, i am not in the mood to argue or even defend my opinions! I will type it tomorrow.


It's not an argument.

How far do you want to go back? You could say that dogs are still wolves or the Americans are stll English.

Things change, we need to live in the 'now'.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Sylvestris Kennels said:


> Nope - its the server sending out all the update e-mails to everybody - thats why the website runs slow everyday at this time.


Ah...PF runs slow ALOT!!!


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> He tried it with me, just don't rise to it sweetie


What did I try with you?

Did I ask questions you were uncomfortable trying to answer?


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> Ah...PF runs slow ALOT!!!


I never have any problems with speed except between 12.05 and 12.10am when its doing the daily e-mail run for subscribers updates - maybe I'm lucky


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

Rick said:


> What did I try with you?
> 
> Did I ask questions you were uncomfortable trying to answer?


Rick - I think this debate is dead - we all agreed to disagree


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Sylvestris Kennels said:


> Rick - I think this debate is dead - we all agreed to disagree


Did we? When was that?


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Rick said:


> It's not an argument.
> 
> How far do you want to go back? You could say that dogs are still wolves or the Americans are stll English.
> 
> Things change, we need to live in the 'now'.


I find you extremely argumentative. Somenthing i didn't think you were.

But never mind.

I will re-type my long post tomomrrow and then you can judge.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Rick said:


> What did I try with you?
> 
> Did I ask questions you were uncomfortable trying to answer?


I answered them!!!! When someone else asked....


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## Baby Bordie (Jun 21, 2009)

I just got hit with a load of messages.


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I find you extremely argumentative.


Errr OK!

Pot & kettle?


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## Sylvestris Kennels (May 12, 2009)

Sylvestris Kennels said:


> Rick - I think this debate is dead - we all agreed to disagree





Rick said:


> Did we? When was that?


Rick...

Here



DKDREAM said:


> Im no saying dont post, I dont argue, i dont see the point everyone has there opinions and i have to respect that so i just say agree to disagree now, theres no point


Here



Lulu's owner said:


> I think everybody's agreed to differ (and we veggies are just waiting for the scientists to develop that test-tube petfood, then we can really take the moral high ground).


Here (TD quoting post above)



tillysdream said:


> Lol...:


and kind of here



canuckjill said:


> I also think for the most part this has been a great thread of debating and its also good that alot of people eg: Borderer and Tillysdream both have strong opinions on opposite sides of the debate and a lot of us are kinda in the middle....Jill If we all agreed on everything this would not be a good world that we live in


We then moved on to talking about red wine and other things.....


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

tillysdream said:


> I answered them!!!! When someone else asked....


You answered my questions when someone esle asked them?

No wonder I am confused.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Sylvestris Kennels said:


> Rick...
> 
> Here
> 
> ...


And who are you Ian, to declare my thread dead?  Who is he? Who is he? Who is he? lol 

But yeah, seems to have run its course....


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Thank you folks i am now closing this thread.
Its run its course for tonight.


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