# Baby ratties pictures



## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

hey all, as I have promised here are some of the ratty pics XD


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## Flissy (Jul 27, 2009)

awww little sausages lol


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## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

Omg they are sooooo cute, how old are they now?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

OOhhh theyre lovely, make sure you keep the photo's of them growing coming please.


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## Sarah+Hammies (Jul 20, 2009)

Omg theyre so cute!!!   How old are they now?


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

Hey guys they just turned 2 weeks old today XD they are so adorable, and one of them have both eyes open and gives us a run for our money XD cant imagine what all 13 will be like when their eyes open XD


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

Heehee more clear photos


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## Marcia (Mar 10, 2009)

Aww, their so cute


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## waterlilyold (Aug 28, 2009)

aw me gawd !! damn they are so loveable


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## Akai-Chan (Feb 21, 2009)

Beautiful! Whatwere the parents?

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## waterlilyold (Aug 28, 2009)

Akai-Chan said:


> Beautiful! Whatwere the parents?
> 
> Peace
> Akai-Chan


rattys silly!!


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## Akai-Chan (Feb 21, 2009)

waterlily said:


> rattys silly!!


Thankyou very much for that 

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## waterlilyold (Aug 28, 2009)

Akai-Chan said:


> Thankyou very much for that
> 
> Peace
> Akai-Chan


no worries  I'm always ready with an intelligent comment


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## Akai-Chan (Feb 21, 2009)

waterlily said:


> no worries  I'm always ready with an intelligent comment


Hahaha Waterlily the ever ready 

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

I want them _all_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are so cute!!! I love the colour of them!!! I want a rat :cryin:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Baby ratties are so lovely!

What colour were the parents? ....you wouldn't usually get Topaz and Champagne in the same litter, so it would be nice to know & maybe work out the genetics


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## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

zany_toon said:


> I want them _all_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are so cute!!! I love the colour of them!!! I want a rat :cryin:


Get some and you can just say they are err giant mongolian mice.


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

hey guys, well the mum is a pale champagne and the daddy is a topaz so i ended up with 6 topaz and 5 champagne and one topaz hooded and one pale greyish hooded XD i want to keep them all but i know i cant XD oohhh ill put some picys of molly's babies up soon their markings are real cool XD


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Baby ratties are so lovely!
> 
> What colour were the parents? ....you wouldn't usually get Topaz and Champagne in the same litter, so it would be nice to know & maybe work out the genetics


lol would make sense i do have unusual pets XD


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

Could you not be confusing Silver Fawn for Topaz?? what colour is the dads eyes? any pics of him?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

spoiled_rat said:


> Could you not be confusing Silver Fawn for Topaz??


That's what I was wondering, too


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

spoiled_rat said:


> Could you not be confusing Silver Fawn for Topaz?? what colour is the dads eyes? any pics of him?


possibly because they are similar, but its not as orange :S is their a way top tell the difference? some of the babies have a greyish belly and 2 have like a white ish belly?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Eye colour is the real way to tell - pink/red eyes = silver fawn; dark eyes = topaz. Although Topaz are stated to have 'ruby' eyes, in reality they are very dark and you can only see the 'ruby' in a strong light.
If the yes are red or pink then Silver Fawn is what they are - likewise, Champagne has pink/red eyes.

It's possible some are Berkshires and have white markings on the tummy.


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Eye colour is the real way to tell - pink/red eyes = silver fawn; dark eyes = topaz. Although Topaz are stated to have 'ruby' eyes, in reality they are very dark and you can only see the 'ruby' in a strong light.
> If the yes are red or pink then Silver Fawn is what they are - likewise, Champagne has pink/red eyes.
> 
> It's possible some are Berkshires and have white markings on the tummy.


oh fair enough, yeah their eyes are a real dark red but you can tell they are red in day light. the thing that confuses me is all the babies are getting darker in colours like a goldy orange but dark, and the champagnes are getting dark to like a slight greyish tone. the only ones that arent changing are the 2 hooded ones, i guess i must wait for a few more weeks before i make and assumption huh?


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

more photos XD


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Blimey how unique they all are.... Lovely colours... I like the twins with the same heads.. So cute..


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## Flissy (Jul 27, 2009)

Aww they are sooo cute! I want them all please


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## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

Ok if I pm you with my adress can you post them all to me please, they are adorable though, I wouldnt be able to let any go.


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## laurvystein (Dec 21, 2009)

They're adorable!


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

Are they the same litter? Or just no pics of the silver fawns?

Either the "topaz" are silver fawns or the "champagnes" must be buffs. Unless mum and dad both carried RE and PE, plus hooded and striped roan, and mink by the looks of things. Odd though as I dont spy roans in the first pics?

Wow. Talk about rainbow litter! I dont envy you working out the genetics


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Are they the same litter? Or just no pics of the silver fawns?
> 
> Either the "topaz" are silver fawns or the "champagnes" must be buffs. Unless mum and dad both carried RE and PE, plus hooded and striped roan, and mink by the looks of things. Odd though as I dont spy roans in the first pics?
> 
> Wow. Talk about rainbow litter! I dont envy you working out the genetics


no these are a different litter. The other litter i had checked out by a friend of mine and he said he thinks they are all champagne as they are all getting lighter :S its so confusing. this litter he said are variegated and the one baby he is confused with he says she might have mink or blue in her but he is going to wait till they are a little bit older before he calls it XD.

they are going to be hard to let go of but i will be keeping the twins as one is male and one is female XD


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

the thing i love about this litter is they are all different, no two are the same at all XD not even the twins heehee


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

They're not variegated. They're roan and hooded. And the roans aren't blue, they're brown, so probably mink.

Hawthorn Rat Varieties

I dont know if they were planned or not, but if you're planning on breeding it really does make sense to pick a variety you love and aim for it, getting breeding rats from a reputable breeder (you'll find several on the NFRS breeders list - email [email protected] for it).

If you need any help id-ing varieties, showing pics of mum and dad might help (although genetics are a bit more complicated than that as they both might be carrying something you cant see).


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

hey hey im still learning, i dont know if you meant it but that came across as a little *in your face*, I was told by some one that has been doing this for years that they are not roan and he is getting some one that specialises in variegated to help me out more. so I only know what i am told. and i search online for help with markings and colours but how am i supposed to know? since there are so many different pics for the same thing XD please help if you can XD


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> Are they the same litter? Or just no pics of the silver fawns?
> 
> Either the "topaz" are silver fawns or the "champagnes" must be buffs. Unless mum and dad both carried RE and PE, plus hooded and striped roan, and mink by the looks of things. Odd though as I dont spy roans in the first pics?
> 
> Wow. Talk about rainbow litter! I dont envy you working out the genetics


sorry to ask but seriously how do you work out genetics, i keep trying but it confuses me with what looks like abbreviations, i find it hard to read short text.


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

Akai-Chan said:


> Beautiful! Whatwere the parents?
> 
> Peace
> Akai-Chan


of which litter?  the more colourful litter is molly's (fawn variegated dumbo and dad was a black hooded fancy) and the gold and champagne (i say gold because their colour keeps changing) are bonnies (champagne female fancy and the dad is a topaz dumbo)

P.S just got bitten on the nose by bonnie!


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

thedogsmother said:


> Get some and you can just say they are err giant mongolian mice.


I think the difference might be a little noticeable. Especially given that the person who doesn't like them would go and google "Giand mongolian mice" and start questioning as to why they can't find any references about them :001_tt2:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Wilted0Rose said:


> of which litter?  the more colourful litter is molly's (fawn variegated dumbo and dad was a black hooded fancy) and the gold and champagne (i say gold because their colour keeps changing) are bonnies (champagne female fancy and the dad is a topaz dumbo)


I would say do some reading up on various colours, UK sites only (USA call colours by different names and sometimes have different colour genes anyway) because you are confusing _us_ with your terms! 

All rats are 'fancy' rats and nobody uses that term really unless trying to make a distinction between domestic rats and wild ones. Dumbos are just dumbos, if you want to differentiate between those and non-Dumbo then Top-Eared or Standard Eared is the way to go.

Do you have any established rat breeders nearby? Those who are members of the NFRS, for instance? They would be more than happy to meet you & your rats and help you identify your colours. I fall into that category myself (I have also been a show judge in the past) but sadly don't drive and you're a bit too far away.

I would be more than happy to help if you have any questions that can be answered online - pics help! and you're welcome to PM me too.

I do understand how hard it is starting out in rats... everyone was a novice once! but the route most people go is to join the NFRS, go to some shows, and generally learn before going into breeding them. Which is what I did 20 years ago.

Otherwise... as you are seemingly finding! - it gets confusing. It is *so* confusing that many new breeders opt to have a mentor who can help & advise on tap for the first year or so. I ma pretty sure there are NFRS members near you who would be happy to assist...I guess it's a question of finding them, but if you join the NFRS that's a lot easier, even if you are not interested in breeding rats for show.


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

Wilted0Rose said:


> sorry to ask but seriously how do you work out genetics, i keep trying but it confuses me with what looks like abbreviations, i find it hard to read short text.


The genetics are usually worked out by making an educated guess if you don't know what your breeding stock carries some of this can be by going by what you can see in them while the rest would depend on what shows up in the litters (e.g if one parent is a blue red eyed dunbo then you at least know that the rat carries the genes for all those traits) and using punnet squares. If you buy whatever animal you are breeding from a breeder they will be more likely to tell you what genes the animals are carried to save all this and prevent (hopefully!) any problems! Each rat will carry two genes for each trait and the dominant gene is the one that you see expressed in the rat so when doing a punnett square (see the piccie below as an example) you need to list each possible combination of genes that a parent can pass to the offspring.









So, depending on the number of genes you are trying to trace (which can be _a lot_ I think most people look at rat coat colour, eye colour, ear position in rats) it can get really complicated - for the three common things looked at in a rat, there will be 6 genes in total (3 from each parent.) Even in a simple genetic example where there are only two genes (e.g. n flowres green, round peas or wrinkled yellow peas) it can lead to a possible 4 different genotypes. 
And yes, the bits you thought were abbreviations are abbreviations - we scientists are very lazy and when doing punnett squares or writing out essays, dissertations etc. we can't be bothered writing red eyed dunbo eared white rats each time so abbreviate it to something wonky like Rrddww


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

zany_toon said:


> ...we can't be bothered writing red eyed dunbo eared white rats each time so abbreviate it to something wonky like Rrddww


If you were knowledgeable about the various genes of rats (see works by Robinson, Castle etc) then a red eyed white (albino?) dumbo rat would be properly classified as *cc* plus a yet unpublished recessive gene known anecdotally/colloquially as Du, in expression here, *dudu*.

There's more than one way to make a red/pink eyed white rat though! 

First of all you need to know what colours your rats really are, in an established way, as that will usually then link up with the genetics. It is no use calling them Fawn (which is an american term used for Topaz, *A-rr*) when they might be Silver Fawn, aka *A-pp*. "Gold" and "Cream" doesn't mean a thing.... there are no recognised "gold" phenotypes or genotypes in rats of that name. There is a "Cream" but it's highly unlikely to be what you have, as it's on a different locus and fairly restrictive, i.e. owned & bred by breeders who _do_ know its genetic behaviour.

I'm hoping not to be or come across as being too serious.... for want of a better word? But if you are _seriously_ wanting to breed rats then I'm afraid you will need to learn all this stuff, as others have done before you... nobody will take you seriously otherwise. Ok if you want to sell them locally as pets etc.... but if you want to advertise them on rat forums amongst people who have been doing this for years and really know their stuff inside out, then I'm afraid you'll _have_ to compete.

More than one rat owner on this forum has in the last few weeks had serious issues buying in rats from a so-called 'breeder' who as it turns out knew diddly squat, and the animals have suffered as a result.

Now, speaking as someone who has worked a great deal over the last 25 years educating people on pet rats, helping them to become an acceptable household pet, going on radio & TV and newspapers to further that cause, developing new varieties, helping others, mentoring, showing and generally adding to the global rat knowledge database including helping people on the other side of the world work out their rat genetics.... that upsets me a lot.

Anyone can be a BYB of *any* species but what sets a proper breeder above a BYB is depth of knowledge, ethics and dedication. You can choose to be whatever kind you like but in this day & age you won't find many people on your side if you choose not to learn and get involved.

/rant - apologies, people. Had my first pet rats in 1978 and have been working towards greater understanding ever since.


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

Wilted0Rose said:


> sorry to ask but seriously how do you work out genetics, i keep trying but it confuses me with what looks like abbreviations, i find it hard to read short text.





MerlinsMum said:


> If you were knowledgeable about the various genes of rats (see works by Robinson, Castle etc) then a red eyed white (albino?) dumbo rat would be properly classified as *cc* plus a yet unpublished recessive gene known anecdotally/colloquially as Du, in expression here, *dudu*.


I have no knowledge of rat genetics and decided I was better to say "something wonky like..." than say it _was_ what I was typing!! I thought it better to leave the exact genes to people like you who really know rat genetics than try to come across as if I knew about rat genetics specifically and was quoting the genes :001_tt2: Thanks for giving the right genes - I might know genetics in general but don't know rat genetics in much detail at all


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> More than one rat owner on this forum has in the last few weeks had serious issues buying in rats from a so-called 'breeder' who as it turns out knew diddly squat, and the animals have suffered as a result.
> 
> Now, speaking as someone who has worked a great deal over the last 25 years educating people on pet rats, helping them to become an acceptable household pet, going on radio & TV and newspapers to further that cause, developing new varieties, helping others, mentoring, showing and generally adding to the global rat knowledge database including helping people on the other side of the world work out their rat genetics.... that upsets me a lot.
> 
> /rant - apologies, people. Had my first pet rats in 1978 and have been working towards greater understanding ever since.


Why don't you start a website or a thread MM? You clearly know your stuff given how long you have had rats and have helped numerous people on here before - if you had some time ti might be worth doing so that people on here at least have some one they know and trust to rely on for the information they need. Just a thought :wink:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

zany_toon said:


> Why don't you start a website or a thread MM? You clearly know your stuff given how long you have had rats and have helped numerous people on here before - if you had some time ti might be worth doing so that people on here at least have some one they know and trust to rely on for the information they need. Just a thought :wink:


 Thank you but really no need... there are already so many out there. The NFRS website for one, and its forum; plus Fancy Rats | Home and many others. It's all there if anyone needs to know. I'm not sure I could now add a lot more to the general pool of knowledge even if I was able to create a website atm.... it's a nice thought, though... thank you 

[PS I don't know if you're calling my bluff re my knowledge, but if you care to ask me on PM I will clarify.]


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

Wilted0Rose said:


> hey hey im still learning, i dont know if you meant it but that came across as a little *in your face*, I was told by some one that has been doing this for years that they are not roan and he is getting some one that specialises in variegated to help me out more. so I only know what i am told. and i search online for help with markings and colours but how am i supposed to know? since there are so many different pics for the same thing XD please help if you can XD


They're definitely not variegated. Here's the link to the varieties site, look at striped roan or roan:

Hawthorn Rat Varieties

I dont mean to be in your face, just that you're obviously getting conflicting advice from someone who doesn't know rat varieties.

Could you post pics of the parents, I'll try and id them for you?



> The genetics are usually worked out by making an educated guess


This comment really concerns me. As a responsible breeder, one should only be breeding from rats with long histories from other reputable breeders, not ever from pet shop or BYB rats. Pet shop rats have been mass breed in poor conditions, with no thought for temperament or health - and therefore you cant predict what predispositions they may be carrying (eg for cancer, heart issues, long term joint problems etc) let alone what colour they'll end up (which is least important). See this thread to see how rodent farmed animals are raised:
Fancy Rats • View topic - Visit to a rodent farm (with pics!)

If you are really genuinely interested in breeding to make healthier, longer lived and friendlier pets, I'd contact a reputable breeder - one that is registered with the NFRS or another rat club, who breeds for temperament and health first and foremost, and has a long history of rats in their lines who will be able to tell you what their line's health is like, and what varieties they carry genetically. Eg. If you came to me - I'd be able to say my capped rats carry mink and RE, and my hooded line carries russian blue, mink and pearl. My capped line is prone to being smaller and more active, my hooded line is prone to being overweight and lazy, but licky and loving. Try attending some local shows (whereabouts are you? I may know of some), and seeing whose rats do well, or get recommendations from other owners and breeders (again - I may be able to recommend some).

Again - I'm not meaning to "tell anyone off", just help educate - I didnt know these things when I started owning rats, I learnt from other owners and eventually breeders. If I can help with any advice, just shout.

As for genetics, you dont need to know all the genetics of all varieties, just what you want to specialise in. Eg. I dont know the genetic codes for the varieties I breed, but I do know mink and russian blue are recessive, pearl is lethal dominant, hooded needs two copies of the hooded gene, one copy makes berkshire, etc. Even if you're only breeding for pet homes, you need to know the basics so you can predict outcomes of various litters.

Hope that helps a bit!


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## Akai-Chan (Feb 21, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Thank you but really no need... there are already so many out there. The NFRS website for one, and its forum; plus Fancy Rats | Home and many others. It's all there if anyone needs to know. I'm not sure I could now add a lot more to the general pool of knowledge even if I was able to create a website atm.... it's a nice thought, though... thank you
> 
> [PS I don't know if you're calling my bluff re my knowledge, but if you care to ask me on PM I will clarify.]


I doubt she is calling your bluff  We know that you know your stuff when it comes to rat genetics!

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

okies ill get clear photos of mum and dad XD will you need top, bottom and face shots of mum and daddies?


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> [PS I don't know if you're calling my bluff re my knowledge, but if you care to ask me on PM I will clarify.]


 I wasn't!! I was only meaning that there were a few people in the last couple of weeks who have discussed rat genetics and you have given advice on the matter. I just thought that as you are some one we all know that it would be great if you did a thread :blushing: Sorry if it came across any other way. I didn't mean it too!  I was being serious and trying to compliment you on your knowledge :crying:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

zany_toon said:


> I wasn't!! I was only meaning that there were a few people in the last couple of weeks who have discussed rat genetics and you have given advice on the matter. I just thought that as you are some one we all know that it would be great if you did a thread :blushing: Sorry if it came across any other way. I didn't mean it too!  I was being serious and trying to compliment you on your knowledge :crying:


Awww sorry, hun....Didn't take it that way at all.... and..... *It's Chriiiiiistmasss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* lololol


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> This comment really concerns me


Sorry! I have edited my post to clarify that unless the rats being breed from were bought from a breeder that it was unlikely that the genotypes will be known so an educated guess would have to be done as to what the rats were carrying going by what you can see in them and what appears in the litters. Although definitely, as you and MM said getting from a breeder will give a much better idea as to what genes may have been inherited and ensure the rats are better bred. :wink: Was interrupted when I was writing it last night and forgot where I was. Thanks for pointing it out :thumbsup:


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

eugghhhh its sooo hardddd to get a grip off! lol, i know this will sound stupid, but could one of you guys please help me understand hoe to do genetics? like what is ro rr pe and all of that, i am trying so hard and have been staying up till stupid hours in the morning trying to work it all out and im struggling.

is genetics the kind of thing that some people will pick up a lot faster than others? because i am will to put all that time in to learning, if any of you dont mind that is, i am a fast learner i promis i just need some one to break it down for me so i understand better.


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

Genetics is something that some people pick up faster than others. I won't be any help when it comes to rat genetics as I only learned genetic theory (so things like how the genes are inherited, mutations, expression, molecular genetics) so I might be able to help with the general stuff. Might be worth asking Merlin's Mum or LisaLQ if they can point you somewhere to get you started on the specifics of rat genetics? Or try checking the NFRS website National Fancy Rat Society just had a nosey myself and looks like they have a whole whack of stuff on genetics!!


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

zany_toon said:


> Genetics is something that some people pick up faster than others. I won't be any help when it comes to rat genetics as I only learned genetic theory (so things like how the genes are inherited, mutations, expression, molecular genetics) so I might be able to help with the general stuff. Might be worth asking Merlin's Mum or LisaLQ if they can point you somewhere to get you started on the specifics of rat genetics? Or try checking the NFRS website National Fancy Rat Society just had a nosey myself and looks like they have a whole whack of stuff on genetics!!


i have read their bit on varieties but i will check out that link now it might help out more XD i want to join NFRS as it has been a huge dream of mine, so i keep trying to save up for it but you can guess where the money goes when i finaly get it XDXD


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

Wilted0Rose said:


> i have read their bit on varieties but i will check out that link now it might help out more XD i want to join NFRS as it has been a huge dream of mine, so i keep trying to save up for it but you can guess where the money goes when i finaly get it XDXD


If joining them has been your dream, it might be worth doing what MM suggested and trying to see if you can get a member to act as a mentor if you can find some one in your area.


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

zany_toon said:


> If joining them has been your dream, it might be worth doing what MM suggested and trying to see if you can get a member to act as a mentor if you can find some one in your area.


yeah you are right, i must stop being scared of doing that! i just need to get over this silly little fear i have of failing


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

Wilted0Rose said:


> yeah you are right, i must stop being scared of doing that! i just need to get over this silly little fear i have of failing


Failing is refusing to accept that you will make mistakes that you can learn from. You aren't failing or you wouldn't be here asking for advice and suggestions :thumbup:

Besides, given that the aim for most rat breeders is to ensure that rats are social, have good temperaments and that they are in good health, they would probably like to help knowing that you are wanting to do the same thing as them - breed healthy rats!


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

zany_toon said:


> Failing is refusing to accept that you will make mistakes that you can learn from. You aren't failing or you wouldn't be here asking for advice and suggestions :thumbup:
> 
> Besides, given that the aim for most rat breeders is to ensure that rats are social, have good temperaments and that they are in good health, they would probably like to help knowing that you are wanting to do the same thing as them - breed healthy rats!


ooo ofcourse that is my main aim! and you are right *never regret the mistakes you have made or that means you have not learnt from them*

I must keep remembering that XD


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)




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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

zany_toon said:


>


grrrrr let me sleepppp you are to fun to talk to!! quick get boring ! lol ps that phrase is so true XD


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

Sorry, don't do boring


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

zany_toon said:


> Sorry, don't do boring


lol i am off to bed now .... no turning back now .... i cant ... hahaha nighty nighty sweet dreams, and have a great day x


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

Enjoy your christmas prezzies!!!! TTFN


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## LisaLQ (Dec 19, 2009)

I'd definitely recommend joining the NFRS to anyone, especially those who want to learn about breeding, it may cost a bit, but it's worth it for their forum alone - which has been an absolute godsend to me!

Dont be scared, I'm very much like you, was very scared about doing everything wrong, and people judging me, but they are the least judgemental group I've ever known and have been incredibly supportive despite my (many stupid) questions!


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## Wilted0Rose (Nov 8, 2009)

LisaLQ said:


> I'd definitely recommend joining the NFRS to anyone, especially those who want to learn about breeding, it may cost a bit, but it's worth it for their forum alone - which has been an absolute godsend to me!
> 
> Dont be scared, I'm very much like you, was very scared about doing everything wrong, and people judging me, but they are the least judgemental group I've ever known and have been incredibly supportive despite my (many stupid) questions!


ooo okies ill try save up and avoid shops to stop me from buying ratty stuffs until i get it


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