# Vegan doggy



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I was walking Whisp and a lady stopped and said "what a beautiful dog, she's in very good condition, what do you feed her ?" 
I said she's fed a vegan dog food.
The lady then said "oh dear" and walked off.
What are your thoughts on a vegan diet for dogs ?


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2019)

I believe @catz4m8z feeds her dogs a vegan diet.

Personally it doesn't sit well with me and it's not something I would consider for my own dogs. Then again I'm not vegan myself so it would be pretty odd if I fed my dogs a vegan diet!


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Personally, I don't put my own ethics on my animals, so feed them as close to what nature intended as I can, & that does include raw meat for my carnivore family members.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I just dont know why you would feed an animal that is virtually a carnivore on a vegan diet. Not natural. Mind you humans are omnivores so not sure why a human would be vegan either but that is a different matter.


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

I'm another that isn't a fan.

While dogs maybe omnivores - there simply isn't the unbiased research to support that dogs can actually get everything they nutritionally need from plant sources - not everything is equal with regards to bioavailability.

Yes dogs have evolved to primarily be scavengers but they don't have the digestive system of a true plant eater - they don't have a long gut. They don't have the teeth to grind plant matter down, their jaw only moves up and down, not side to side and more evolved to chomp and tear which would makes sense for bones and meat. They don't produce amylase in their saliva to start and help break down starches and carbs in the mouth - it's added at a later stage.

I would be curious if feeding a vegan diet puts more pressure on a dogs digestive system, or if plant sources offer good bioavailability for dogs. I wonder if a vegan diet would produce more gas and make bloating more likely.

Another big factor for me - dogs enjoy meat. I'm guessing here but I think I would have more luck getting most dogs to work for meat, than I would for plant matter. I'm a firm believer a dog should enjoy their mealtimes and be enthusiastic about their food.

Our dogs don't have the ethics we do - if we decide to own an animal that eats meat, we need to put our own ethics aside and do what is best for that animal and if we can't then perhaps stick to species that thrive eating a diet more in line with our ethics.

I'm not a big meat, egg or dairy consumer myself - I own animals that are, their welfare comes before my ethics. I feed a bit of everything to my dog - raw food, natures menu and orijen, raw meaty bones, dried animal chews and I think it's good and healthy for dogs to have plant matter in their diet but I don't think their diet should be entirely plant matter unless the dog has severe allergies and is following the advice of a dog nutritionist and vet to ensure everything is suitable.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

My thoughts? Same as the woman … poor dog!


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Nope, nope, nope and nope again!!!
1. Dogs are not herbivores
2. Dogs do not have a moral compass when it comes to what they eat
3. IMO it is unethically and morally wrong to choose a diet based on your own ethical reasons.

Now if the dog is on a vegan food due to medical issues and the vet/nutritionist is the one that advised it then my opinion is different.
Will dogs survive on a vegan diet - yes they most likely will...the question is do they thrive, no one has been able to convince me that they do, so no I do not agree with people pushing their own dietary choices onto their pet

I am WFPB yet still feed my dog raw meat when appropriate


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I don’t project my meat, dairy and egg free diet choice on anyone, including my dog.

If the vegan dog food is genuinely giving the dog all the nutrition it needs, then I don’t have an issue with it per se.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I dont know enough about vegan dog food to be able to comment except to say 
I dont feel I have the right to impose it on my dogs.


----------



## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

I remember seeing a lady on tv with her vegan dog, swore blind her dog loved a vegan diet.

Anyway they put a plate of cooked meat down and a plate of veg down.. the dog went straight to the plate of meat lol.

For me I don’t really agree with it, unless the dog has allergies or whatever and can’t eat meat...


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Fair enough, we fed our greyhound a vegan diet and she lived happily to a grand old age.
Luckily Whisp will eat anything so gobbles up her meals in seconds and I use meaty treats for her training.
The way I see it is if my dog is happy and healthy there is no harm in it.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> Fair enough, we fed our greyhound a vegan diet and she lived happily to a grand old age.
> Luckily Whisp will eat anything so gobbles up her meals in seconds and I use meaty treats for her training.
> The way I see it is if my dog is happy and healthy there is no harm in it.


Why is she fed a vegan diet tho?


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Cleo38 said:


> Why is she fed a vegan diet tho?


Ethics


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I don't eat meat and dairy for ethical reasons, I eat whole food plant based for health reasons. 
I feel I should offer my animals the same - ethics and health. So for ethical reasons I try to source meat from decent sources, I don't always succeed, but for the most part I do. For health reasons, I feed my dog and cats meat. 
My dog is fine on days I run out of dog specific food to eat weird concoctions of oatmeal or rice, but I wouldn't ask him to live like that indefinitely.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> I don't eat meat and dairy for ethical reasons, I eat whole food plant based for health reasons.
> I feel I should offer my animals the same - ethics and health. So for ethical reasons I try to source meat from decent sources, I don't always succeed, but for the most part I do. For health reasons, I feed my dog and cats meat.
> My dog is fine on days I run out of dog specific food to eat weird concoctions of oatmeal or rice, but I wouldn't ask him to live like that indefinitely.


The question is; if my dog obviously enjoys eating her vegan food and is happy and healthy is it wrong to feed her a (mostly) plant based diet ?
And if not why?


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> The question is; if my dog obviously enjoys eating her vegan food and is happy and healthy is it wrong to feed her a (mostly) plant based diet ?
> And if not why?


If she is healthy and enjoys her food, then why are you on a forum asking if what you're doing is wrong? 
I'm not trying to be snippy, but if your dog is fine, why do you care what others think of how you're feeding her? My suspicion (which may not be right) is that you're questioning something yourself.

If your dog is healthy and happy, I personally have no care about what you feed your dog


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> The question is; if my dog obviously enjoys eating her vegan food and is happy and healthy is it wrong to feed her a (mostly) plant based diet ?
> And if not why?


If you're happy with it,and your dog is happy and healthy with it,does it really matter what other people think?
This is a topic that comes up quite regularly and the general consensus is to agree to differ.


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> If she is healthy and enjoys her food, then why are you on a forum asking if what you're doing is wrong?
> I'm not trying to be snippy, but if your dog is fine, why do you care what others think of how you're feeding her? My suspicion (which may not be right) is that you're questioning something yourself.
> 
> If your dog is healthy and happy, I personally have no care about what you feed your dog


Great minds !
( cross posted)


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Great minds !


LOL  
It's secretly one of my favorite 'accidents' of forums, when two members post the exact same thing at the same time


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> LOL
> It's secretly one of my favorite 'accidents' of forums, when two members post the exact same thing at the same time


Mine too !


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I just like to hear other people's point of view as I have faced contraversy and would like to understand why. 
Shoot me.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> Ethics


I find it highly unethical that you feed a carnivore a diet she was not meant to eat and cannot thrive on.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

ShibaPup said:


> I'm another that isn't a fan.
> 
> While dogs maybe omnivores - there simply isn't the unbiased research to support that dogs can actually get everything they nutritionally need from plant sources - not everything is equal with regards to bioavailability.
> 
> ...


Exactly this.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> I just like to hear other people's point of view as I have faced contraversy and would like to understand why.
> *Shoot me*.


On the contrary it appears you are looking for an argument, based on your inflammatory comment above.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> I just like to hear other people's point of view as I have faced contraversy and would like to understand why.
> Shoot me.


Oh dude, if you're facing controversy that just means you're alive :Hilarious

I won't shoot you, then we'd have to get in to the hunting debate and that's even more controversial than vegan dog food


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

No I am genuinely interested in the points of view of people and how it motivates them.
It's what makes life interesting.
If everyone thought and did the same thing it would be a very boring existence.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> Ethics


Not your dog's ethics though.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I've read your other thread about how nervous and reactive your dog is. Can't help wondering how much that has to do with her poor diet. Diet matters in all aspects of living, including temperament and mental well being. Perhaps she would feel a little (or maybe a lot) better if she was fed a species appropriate diet.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

lorilu said:


> I've read your other thread about how nervous and reactive your dog is. Can't help wondering how much that has to do with her poor diet. Diet matters in all aspects of living, including temperament and mental well being. Perhaps she would feel a little (or maybe a lot) better if she was fed a species appropriate diet.


When we first rescued her she was reactive, she was fed on canagan for 3 months, when we started feeding very V Dog there was no change in her behaviour.
As I have said she has bite scars on her face so her reactivity is most likely due to some kind of trauma.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Beth78 said:


> When we first rescued her she was reactive, she was fed on canagan for 3 months, when we started feeding very V Dog there was no change in her behaviour.
> As I have said she has bite scars on her face so her reactivity is most likely due to some kind of trauma.


Unfortunately we don't know anything about her past other than she was found as a stray in Ireland.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> When we first rescued her she was reactive, she was fed on canagan for 3 months, when we started feeding very V Dog there was no change in her behaviour.
> As I have said she has bite scars on her face so her reactivity is most likely due to some kind of trauma.


I understand she came to you with the problems, however a decent species appropriate diet might help her a lot more in her gradual recovery. I would recommend a balanced fresh food meat based raw or home cooked diet, avoiding all the garbage in processed pet feeds. You aren't doing right by her by forcing your ethics on her. Feed her right, you might be surprised how much better she progresses.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Beth78 said:


> Ethics


So why the meaty treats?


----------



## Dogwood1 (May 29, 2019)

Beth78 said:


> The question is; if my dog obviously enjoys eating her vegan food...


Obviously any dog will enjoy eating just about anything when intentionally starved of all other alternatives. I wouldn't pat yourself on the back.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

lorilu said:


> I understand she came to you with the problems, however a decent species appropriate diet might help her a lot more in her gradual recovery. I would recommend a balanced fresh food meat based raw or home cooked diet, avoiding all the garbage in processed pet feeds. You aren't doing right by her by forcing your ethics on her. Feed her right, you might be surprised how much better she progresses.


Thank you.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

MilleD said:


> So why the meaty treats?


We feed her meaty treats because dogs are omnivorous and they are high value.
I am not starving my dog.
She has regular vet checks and is happy and healthy.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> We feed her meaty treats because dogs are omnivorous *and they are high value*.


That should tell you something


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> Ethics


So not really what's best for the dog but what's best for you? Which am sure it the case with a lot of dogs that are fed certain me


O2.0 said:


> That should tell you something


Hahahahahaha, exactly what I thought!! 

OP - You face controversy because you have a pet who is a carnivore & yet are feeding it a (mainly) vegan diet. If your ethics are that important to you then I don't understand why you'd get a dog …. but that's just my opinion.

I am (mainly) vegan but feed my dogs raw meat, I try to source it as ethically as I can but I meet their needs which is important to me regarding their welfare


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)




----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Selfish & unethical IMO. If you don't like feeding meat then simply don't get a dog or cat. Maybe a Rabbit would have tied in better with your ethics.


----------



## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

Hey hold on there the poster only asked for our thought's on feeding a Vegan diet I wouldn't feed it myself,but she has taken on a reactive dog with a few issues and from reading her other threads her dog seems to be doing really well,she asked for our opinion she doesn't need to be told she shouldn't have a dogI have seen Vegan dog food on Sale so there must be a number of people feeding Vegan,if she didn't take Whisper on she may still be in Kennels as I think it takes a certain type of person to take on a reactive dog


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Cleo38 said:


> So not really what's best for the dog but what's best for you? Which am sure it the case with a lot of dogs that are fed certain me
> 
> Hahahahahaha, exactly what I thought!!
> 
> I am (mainly) vegan but feed my dogs raw meat, I try to source it as ethically as I can but I meet their needs which is important to me regarding their welfare


Yes animal welfare is very important, I do not starve my dog. I feed her a nutritionally balanced diet.
Why did I get a dog ?
Because she was in the rescue for 5 months and because of her behaviour was on "death row"


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

niamh123 said:


> Hey hold on there the poster only asked for our thought's on feeding a Vegan diet I wouldn't feed it myself,but she has taken on a reactive dog with a few issues and from reading her other threads her dog seems to be doing really well,she asked for our opinion she doesn't need to be told she shouldn't have a dogI have seen Vegan dog food on Sale so there must be a number of people feeding Vegan,if she didn't take Whisper on she may still be in Kennels as I think it takes a certain type of person to take on a reactive dog


Thank you so much for this.


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

You justify your choice of dog food by saying your dog enjoys it.
My late dachshund would eat _absolutely anything -_ cat poo was a firm favourite - but that's not a good enough reason to feed it.
As others have said, we have the control over what to feed our pets and it's up to us to provide a species- appropriate diet.

Are there any accredited nutritional studies on veganism for dogs ?


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

If I did not take Whisper home with me 2 years ago she would have been put to sleep. Is that unethical ?


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> If I did not take Whisper home with me 2 years ago she would have been put to sleep. Is that unethical ?


Absolutely not, all credit to you.
However you did start this thread asking for opinions,for and against, and that is what you're getting. I do appreciate that some of the opinions may not be necessarily what you want to hear.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

SusieRainbow said:


> Are there any accredited nutritional studies on veganism for dogs ?


Apparently there are studies being done but I have not been able to find anything that isn't heavily biased...I am more than willing to look at proper studies and if it is scientifally proven that dogs can thrive on a vegan dog food then my opinion would change.

I know in America they did studies that have examined the nutritional adequacy of vegetarian and vegan dog foods (13 dry and 11 canned) and found that 25% did not meet all nutrition requirements - that was in 2016 IIRC so don't know if there has been improvement or not


----------



## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> If I did not take Whisper home with me 2 years ago she would have been put to sleep. Is that unethical ?


This isn't related to your situation but a humane death isn't a bad option for some dogs - probably not a popular opinion but I'd rather a dog humanely euthanised than languish for months stressed and unhappy in kennels or ending up in a home where the owner doesn't have the skills to manage and help the dog.

I don't think there are many suitable homes out there for dogs that have a lot of serious behavioural problems - life isn't just about being alive, it's the quality of life that the animal gets to live.

Think the same for a lot of foreign rescues - a family member recently got sucked in with a sad story about how poorly treated and abused the dogs are... adopted a dog to save it, they have young children around - now pulling their hair out trying to house train, lead train, deal with resource guarding, counter surfing, bin raiding and a lot of anxieties in an adult dog. I don't think the rescue quite prepared them for the fact they are taking in a street dog straight from kennels.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> Yes animal welfare is very important, I do not starve my dog. I feed her a nutritionally balanced diet.
> Why did I get a dog ?
> Because she was in the rescue for 5 months and because of her behaviour was on "death row"


Based on what evidence though that it is nutritionally balanced? I realise that most of our dogs get little choices in their lives whether or not they are fed a vegan diet, I accept that even our ethics in all areas of our lives will impact our dogs in varying degrees & I don't think that all diet that are 'meat' based are great quality … there are some terrible brands on sale that I wouldn't feed my dog.

I suppose my issue with feeding a dog a vegan diet is that it's your ethics coming first regardless. But if you have studies to show that a vegan diet is suitable then I would be interested in reading it as I haven't seen anything yet.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

When I posted this question I didn't think for one moment that I would be told I should not own a dog or that she would be better off put to sleep.
I just wanted to see other people's point of view as I've been asked "what do you feed her?"
I expected some controversy but not this.
I love Whisper more than anything else, she is happy, healthy and beautiful. 
If her 2 meals a day do not contain meat is that a reason to not own a dog?


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

niamh123 said:


> Hey hold on there the poster only asked for our thought's on feeding a Vegan diet I wouldn't feed it myself,but she has taken on a reactive dog with a few issues and from reading her other threads her dog seems to be doing really well,she asked for our opinion she doesn't need to be told she shouldn't have a dog*I have seen Vegan dog food on Sale* so there must be a number of people feeding Vegan,if she didn't take Whisper on she may still be in Kennels as I think it takes a certain type of person to take on a reactive dog


Sadly there are undersized, unsuitable hutches & cages for all manner of birds & small furries on sale in pet shops, I see dog food I'd never give my own dogs & flea treatment I'd never use on my cats, popular brands of nuggets that have been strongly linked to tumour development in rats.

If there's a market for it, it will be sold, it's why many of us on here campaign for change in many areas of the pet industry.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> When I posted this question I didn't think for one moment that I would be told I should not own a dog or that she would be better off put to sleep.
> I just wanted to see other people's point of view as I've been asked "what do you feed her?"
> I expected some controversy but not this.
> I love Whisper more than anything else, she is happy, healthy and beautiful.
> If her 2 meals a day do not contain meat is that a reason to not own a dog?


Where has anyone said that? Lots of people here have dogs from rescue shelters, it's quite common. This is a forum, you asked for opinions …. you got them! Not sure why you think it's 'controversy', they are just opinions but maybe just some disagreeing with you & you don't like that …


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

niamh123 said:


> Hey hold on there the poster only asked for our thought's on feeding a Vegan diet I wouldn't feed it myself,but she has taken on a reactive dog with a few issues and from reading her other threads her dog seems to be doing really well,she asked for our opinion she doesn't need to be told she shouldn't have a dogI have seen Vegan dog food on Sale so there must be a number of people feeding Vegan,if she didn't take Whisper on she may still be in Kennels as I think it takes a certain type of person to take on a reactive dog


People are giving their opinion. It's not your place to tell people what opinions they can write.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Where has anyone said that?


 I'm sure they haven't . . . or if they have, I missed it.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

"If you dont like feeding meat then simply don't get a dog"
I'm not saying people shouldn't have thier say I'm just shocked at what some people have said.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> If I did not take Whisper home with me 2 years ago she would have been put to sleep. Is that unethical ?


So? Lots of people have rescued dogs who might have been put to death if it weren't for them. I don't see how that fits in with feeding her according to your ethics though. In fact it sounds just like that old pro-declawing claim "I gave her a good home I have a right to cut off her toes".

That you rescued her and are willing to work with her is admirable. That you refuse to feed her a species appropriate diet is not.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Based on what evidence though that it is nutritionally balanced?


Nutritionally balanced on paper. Just like most pet feeds. Whether the animal's system can actually make use of the nutrients is another story.

@Beth78 is this a diet you prepare yoruself, or is it a processed commercial diet?


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

lorilu said:


> Nutritionally balanced on paper. Just like most pet feeds. Whether the animal's system can actually make use of the nutrients is another story.
> 
> @Beth78 is this a diet you prepare yoruself, or is it a processed commercial diet?


She is fed on VDOG the same as my greyhound who lived happily till 13yoa and the same as my friends staff who lived happily to 13yoa.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> "If you dont like feeding meat then simply don't get a dog"
> I'm not saying people shouldn't have thier say I'm just shocked at what some people have said.


In fairness that is one persons opinion...there have been plenty of others that just state their opinion on the ethics of feeding the food...you did ask for opinions and when you do that to a group of people you will get varying responses


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

StormyThai said:


> In fairness that is one persons opinion...there have been plenty of others that just state their opinion on the ethics of feeding the food...you did ask for opinions and when you do that to a group of people you will get varying responses


Yes very true.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> If I did not take Whisper home with me 2 years ago she would have been put to sleep. Is that unethical ?


Sorry but *yawn*
Yes, kudos to you for rescuing a dog, but you're not alone, not by a long shot. All dogs are worthy of a good home, responsibly bred, rescues, oldies. 
I don't know how to say this without sounding like a bit of a cow, but frankly you mention your dog is a rescue from an abusive past a lot. Did you take her on to have a pet or did you take her on to make yourself feel good?

Which also makes me wonder, are you feeding her a vegan diet for *you* to feel good, or are you doing it because it's genuinely the best thing for her?

Don't get me wrong, I get a lot of good vibes myself from rescuing dogs. We've done our share, and yep, I do enjoy 'boasting' about the transformations. But at some point you have to stop looking at the dog in front of you with pity for their past, and deal with the healthy dog in a good home you have. It's unfair to the dog to do otherwise.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Vdog, I have heard of ….. first 5 main ingredients are: Dried Peas, Pea Protein, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Potato Protein


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Tomorrow I will start feeding Whisper on Canagan again. I will report the result.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Vdog, I have heard of ….. first 5 main ingredients are: Dried Peas, Pea Protein, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Potato Protein


To be fair on many occasion Bates has eaten either oatmeal or brown rice with freeze dried beef hearts thrown on top. 
The pea protein I won't even eat :Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> Tomorrow I will start feeding Whisper on Canagan again. I will report the result.


For it to be a fair trial you will have to transition her gradually over 2 weeks though, won't you ?
A sudden total change to a meat diet would likely upset her digestion.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

SusieRainbow said:


> For it to be a fair trial you will have to transition her gradually over 2 weeks though, won't you ?
> A sudden total change to a meat diet would likely upset her digestion.


Oh yes of course.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> Tomorrow I will start feeding Whisper on Canagan again. I will report the result.


Why Canagan? As has been mentioned a slow transition would be needed, for any change. And then at least 6 months on the new diet after the transition is done. But Canagan has a lot of those same carbs in it. Why not feed your dog a fresh meat based diet?


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

It's not as simple as look what changes over 2 weeks, 6-12 weeks would be more likely but still regardless your own thoughts etc without looking at it scientifically, say with blood tests as baselines does anything change.things like dexa scans looking at muscle mass etc changing diet isn't going to always change your own bias...

Here's an article...not the one I wanted but similar arguments to here...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/well/family/the-vegan-dog.html

It's up to you the reader to extrapolate what you will, who has bias to what they say..isn't there 4 professionals commenting.

Vegan diet really isn't something I would myself consider to feed ..unless any of my dogs had severe allergies to many, many proteins and then it would be an option. However, the likelihood of that happening with the current market is probably zero.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I'm sorry, I didn't start this thread to cause an argument, I was genuinely interested in people's point of view which I have now had in buckets.
I love my dog and would never do anything to harm her.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't start this thread to cause an argument, I was genuinely interested in people's point of view which I have now had in buckets.
> I love my dog and would never do anything to harm her.


Food is an emotive subject. Once we have our dog. Genetics are determined. So one thing as owners what we can do is feed our dog the best food..which must be the most commonly asked question here. It's the one thing we have a choice over. One thing we can 'research' about. I mean dog food websites have a large number of hits per day...massive incomes I would say for very much opinion based.

Everyone will argue, say what they feed their dog is the best and yes it can get heated.


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

lullabydream said:


> Food is an emotive subject. Once we have our dog. Genetics are determined. So one thing as owners what we can do is feed our dog the best food..which must be the most commonly asked question here. It's the one thing we have a choice over. One thing we can 'research' about. I mean dog food websites have a large number of hits per day...massive incomes I would say for very much opinion based.
> 
> Everyone will argue, say what they feed their dog is the best and yes it can get heated.


Too true, look at some of the raw feeding threads !


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

SusieRainbow said:


> Too true, look at some of the raw feeding threads !


Oh the words natural, wolves and stops a myriad of health problems springs to mind!... Oh and grains...run to the hills.

Poor Bates @O2.0 them dreaded grains he eats I mean poor wee poppet...to be honest Maisie is the same, son cooks way too much brown or basmati rice and that goes in her bowl for supper.

Seriously though, as dogs are omnivores it wouldn't sit well with me if they didn't have meat in their diet.

@ShibaPup can explain more, but there was or still is sausage shaped food available for snakes, because people wanted snakes but didn't like feeding them appropriate food. With research they could have possibly got egg eating snakes....but you know...simpler to do something to please than what is right sometimes!


----------



## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

My first thought is... if you want a pet that eats a Vegan diet get a Rabbit!

Why are you feeding a Dog a Vegan diet? Is it for ethical reasons & if so, in what way, your own beliefs (I:E you are Vegan), peer pressure? I'm genuinely interested!


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

@Beth78 
Have a read of this thread from last year, something to get your teeth into!

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/feeding-a-vegan-dog.486670/page-8#post-1065189421


----------



## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

lorilu said:


> Why Canagan? As has been mentioned a slow transition would be needed, for any change. And then at least 6 months on the new diet after the transition is done. But Canagan has a lot of those same carbs in it. Why not feed your dog a fresh meat based diet?


What is a fresh meat based diet?


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I was thinking about this a bit more. At one time working dogs were seldom fed meat. Farm dogs had porridge or gruel. The first complete foods were almost completely lacking in meat and were pretty much pure cereal. The dogs actually did ok though dogs on meat based diets seem to do much healthier poos and have better coats - apart from one I had in the kennels that had real skin problems. I changed her to a cereal food and she went home in wonderful condition. Not suggesting dogs should have vegan diets but the dreaded cereals did used to be the staple diet of a lot of dogs.


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2019)

Blitz said:


> I was thinking about this a bit more. At one time working dogs were seldom fed meat. Farm dogs had porridge or gruel. The first complete foods were almost completely lacking in meat and were pretty much pure cereal. The dogs actually did ok though dogs on meat based diets seem to do much healthier poos and have better coats - apart from one I had in the kennels that had real skin problems. I changed her to a cereal food and she went home in wonderful condition. Not suggesting dogs should have vegan diets but the dreaded cereals did used to be the staple diet of a lot of dogs.


I think it's another example of what suits the dog. My dad's dog was fed on a food that was basically cereal with very little meat and she really didn't do well on it. Although at the time we never put 2 and 2 together (novice dog owners) I'm convinced now that it was the cause of her horrible greasy coat and strong smell.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> I think it's another example of what suits the dog. My dad's dog was fed on a food that was basically cereal with very little meat and she really didn't do well on it. Although at the time we never put 2 and 2 together (novice dog owners) I'm convinced now that it was the cause of her horrible greasy coat and strong smell.


Gosh I know a dog that smells badly and Stan did when he came to me being fed what was on special offer in the supermarket. Both fed food I wouldn't choose to feed unless something happened. Not sure what exactly, if it was the only food they could eat.

Bad smelling dogs to me meaning the diet isn't right..but I think some dog owners think dogs have a dog smell and that's it!

Dogs are still being fed heavy cereal based diets...due to clever marketing, and what's allowed...rich in beef..4% beef isn't rich in beef to me..percentage of chicken...yep but chicken fat isn't really the meat we are imagining now is it. Am not saying that the fat isn't needed but I don't know, some marketing to draw in us the consumers, because quite frankly a lot of dogs will eat anything. Scavengers by nature; except Elliot @McKenzie as he didn't want a poorly tum!


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

My lot couldnt give a monkey's that they are fed a vegan diet. They get a combo of vegan kibble and home made wet food with biscuits and sweet potato chews along with the odd bit of fruit and veg. They love their food (and Ive tried my home made....it tastes really nice!LOL) and 3 of them have had blood tests since being plant based and they are fit and healthy. 
Plenty of energy, nice firm poops and no gas and just generally happy dogs.
Other people may not agree but thats their problem isnt it?

(I wouldnt feed them like this if I wasnt positive they couldnt live a happy, healthy life on this diet. After all I still have a freezer full of mice for the snake!).


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blitz said:


> Farm dogs had porridge or gruel.


Yup, even in the 80's there were still some hard-core old timers who swore that it was the best thing for working dogs. Oats/barley with some offal mixed in. 
Mom used to cook up offal to add to the dog's gruel, gawd it smelled awful!


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Jason25 said:


> What is a fresh meat based diet?


Feeding raw meat, bones, and organ in the correct balance. Usually an 80/10/5/5 is the rule of thumb. That's 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organ. Can be slightly tweaked to sit individual needs.

Of course there are many other ways to feed a raw diet, using commercial premade products, or meat and pre-mixes that balance the meat.

Or even home cooked, adding in the supplements including calcium (or raw bones)


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> (I wouldnt feed them like this if I wasnt positive they couldnt live a happy, healthy life on this diet.


But, you can't be positive.

Nobody really knows the long term implications of a vegan diet for dogs.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> Once we have our dog. Genetics are determined. So one thing as owners what we can do is feed our dog the best food.


Yep. Diet matters in every single aspect of a living thing's life. Cows and rabbits aren't fed meat. Why? Because they wouldn't survive. Or if they did, they wouldn't thrive, they'd be very sick. Humans eat many things. Much of it is not good for them and it reflects in all aspects of their lives. If they live on junk food they do not feel their best. Ever.

Feed a living being what it is meant to be fed, to give it the best chances in all parts of it's life.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

If you are so keen of feeding vegan due to 'ethics', then maybe you should check out Yora dog food. It's highly sustainable but instead of the usual meat, it's made with insect protein. It's not cheap mind, but I expect we're going to see more and more insect protein products out soon.
https://www.yorapetfoods.com/yora-pet-foods


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Rafa said:


> But, you can't be positive.
> 
> Nobody really knows the long term implications of a vegan diet for dogs.


well, Im as positive as somebody who feeds their dog another sort of diet. Plenty of dogs live long and happy lives on a vegan diet well into their teenage years. All the while mine continue to thrive Im happy to stick with what works for them.
After all we all try to do whats best for our dogs...I may not agree with what somebody else does with their dog but as long as they are happy and healthy then I dont see what it matters.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Yup, even in the 80's there were still some hard-core old timers who swore that it was the best thing for working dogs. Oats/barley with some offal mixed in.
> Mom used to cook up offal to add to the dog's gruel, gawd it smelled awful!


My mother used to cook lights every week to add to the pet dog's tinned meat. Disgusting stuff, though I have done it I have to admit.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Sarah H said:


> If you are so keen of feeding vegan due to 'ethics', then maybe you should check out Yora dog food. It's highly sustainable but instead of the usual meat, it's made with insect protein. It's not cheap mind, but I expect we're going to see more and more insect protein products out soon.
> https://www.yorapetfoods.com/yora-pet-foods


Thank you, I haven't heard of that one. Will look into it. You're right it is abit pricey .


----------



## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Genuine question - is insect protein compatible with vegan values?


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

JoanneF said:


> Genuine question - is insect protein compatible with vegan values?


I would have thought not.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Strictly, no. But it is a more sustainable option than many other alternatives. Uses less land, water and creates less greenhouse emissions. 
They seem to be very high on the welfare scale as well.
It's always good to hear about new ideas.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

My question is if it's cheaper to harvest insects than other meat why is Yora so very expensive? 
Maybe it's a small company.


----------



## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Beth78 said:


> Strictly, no. But it is a more sustainable option than many other alternatives. Uses less land, water and creates less greenhouse emissions.
> They seem to be very high on the welfare scale as well.
> It's always good to hear about new ideas.


Thanks, that makes sense.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> My question is if it's cheaper to harvest insects than other meat why is Yora so very expensive?
> Maybe it's a small company.


That's the same question many who feed their dogs kibble, wet or raw can ask though. Why can one brand be essentially more expensive than another with pretty much the same ingredients, or quality

Per food has a market so you decide.


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Surely if veganism is about animal welfare are insects not considered to be animals ?


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

SusieRainbow said:


> Surely if veganism is about animal welfare are insects not considered to be animals ?


Insects are animals yes.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

JoanneF said:


> Genuine question - is insect protein compatible with vegan values?


It depends on your reason for being vegan. If it's due to not wanting animals being killed for human or pet consumption then no. But if it's more about sustainability and welfare then I'd say for sure it's compatible. Especially if you are keeping carnivores as pets


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

For me it is about reducing animal products. If my brother brings leftover meat from his cafe I use it as treats.
If my dad makes a cake with eggs from my hens I will eat it.
If her vet tells me she is lacking in any nutrition I will review her diet accordingly.


----------



## wee man (Apr 8, 2012)

I just wonder how many of our dogs live full healthy lives on so many poor quality kibbles that are marketed.
Many kibbles are grain based, with peas, beans and seeds and beet ( all vegetarian).
Some only have small amounts of animal derivatives and greasy fats, of which are highly processed and quiet probably leaving not very much of their natural goodness left at all. No meat just derivatives, and palatability enhancers. These must be next best to vegetarian diets.

I think Whisp looks extremely well and healthy (does she have allergies of any description ?) 

Of course our pets have evolved with purpose built jaws and teeth that are designed for eating and tearing meat, a short digestive system to process this product efficiently. I am sure meat is the correct food for our dogs.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

wee man said:


> I just wonder how many of our dogs live full healthy lives on so many poor quality kibbles that are marketed.
> Many kibbles are grain based, with peas, beans and seeds and beet ( all vegetarian).
> Some only have small amounts of animal derivatives and greasy fats, of which are highly processed and quiet probably leaving not very much of their natural goodness left at all. No meat just derivatives, and palatability enhancers. These must be next best to vegetarian diets.
> 
> ...


Funny you've changed your tune...or is it she's a member of your precious forum?

One search here and your usually bleating on about how grains are all evil? Kibble is the work of the devil and quite frankly upset kibble feeders with your attitude?

At least this member you can't send a pm to and suggest going to the other forum like the rest?


----------



## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

I don't think your reply is acceptable
If people want to belong to more than one forum it's up them as the saying goes" you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink"


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

niamh123 said:


> I don't think your reply is acceptable
> If people want to belong to more than one forum it's up them as the saying goes" you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink"


Really? If people belong to another forum that's fine by me but poaching people, isn't the way to go. Something similar was apparently happening with another member too... PM's sent to join this forum. No idea if it was true but it's not really morally right, at all. I believe the moderation team were notified at that time too 
If people aren't happy with this forum. Go to another forum. However going to another forum to complain about unnecessary opinions of others. Well from where I stand the morale high ground is running low.

Plus you weren't here with the SixStar scandal, so yes it wasnt an unnecessary comment.

Naturally you would say that the comment is uncalled for as you were invited.

If you had been wanting to join another forum then a quick Google would have found it


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

lullabydream said:


> Really? If people belong to another forum that's fine by me but poaching people, isn't the way to go. Something similar was apparently happening with another member too... PM's sent to join this forum. No idea if it was true but it's not really morally right, at all. I believe the moderation team were notified at that time too
> If people aren't happy with this forum. Go to another forum. However going to another forum to complain about unnecessary opinions of others. Well from where I stand the morale high ground is running low.
> 
> Plus you weren't here with the SixStar scandal, so yes it wasnt an unnecessary comment.
> ...


It is against the rules of Petforums to actively promote another forum and to try to poach members.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

lymorelynn said:


> It is against the rules of Petforums to actively promote another forum and to try to poach members.


I thought it was too! @SusieRainbow is aware


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

lullabydream said:


> I thought it was too! @SusieRainbow is aware


I know - just thought I'd add a reminder here


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

lymorelynn said:


> I know - just thought I'd add a reminder here


That's a very good idea. Gets the point across!


----------



## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

So are you saying PM are not actually private


----------



## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

niamh123 said:


> So are you saying PM are not actually private


PM's are private.


----------



## wee man (Apr 8, 2012)

niamh123 said:


> So are you saying PM are not actually private


I sometimes wonder this too but never known how to ask.


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

niamh123 said:


> So are you saying PM are not actually private


As @Matrod says: PMs are private but any that break forum rules, in any way, can and should be forwarded to a moderator


----------



## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Heidi has had the best dog food I can afford. I fed raw, kibble and wet. 
My previous dogs were fed wet and mixer biscuits. Whatever was on offer on the supermarket shelves. I cringe at the rubbish I fed. Inc. muesli mixes with hot water. All my dogs lived long and healthy lives on it.
Heidi has had more ongoing issues than all of them put together and the lesson I’ve learned the hard way is to feed what suits my dog and I’m darned if I’ll be bamboozled or shamed into anything different.
Nowadays I put more focus on interacting and having fun with her. Too much went by the by while I researched the next best food.
OP do what makes you and your dog happy but no when draw the line and enjoy xxxx


----------



## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Hear, hear life's just too short, enjoy your dog and, as long as he's healthy and active and has a good appetite then you are doing your best for him. It seems that everyone has an opinion on this and no two dogs are the same, like people it's the differences that make them such worthwhile companions (not pets ) Love your dog xx


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Heidi has had the best dog food I can afford. I fed raw, kibble and wet.
> My previous dogs were fed wet and mixer biscuits. Whatever was on offer on the supermarket shelves. I cringe at the rubbish I fed. Inc. muesli mixes with hot water. All my dogs lived long and healthy lives on it.
> Heidi has had more ongoing issues than all of them put together and the lesson I've learned the hard way is to feed what suits my dog and I'm darned if I'll be bamboozled or shamed into anything different.
> Nowadays I put more focus on interacting and having fun with her. Too much went by the by while I researched the next best food.
> OP do what makes you and your dog happy but no when draw the line and enjoy xxxx


Most of my previous dogs have had cheap cereal based complete food from the local agricultural place. Then I had one that did not thrive so well so I got something better for her. I have more money now and smaller dogs so they are on much better quality food (wainwrights wet and arden grange dry) and I have my first dog with food intolerances and my first one with numerous health issues. So I would agree, just feed what suits your pocket and your dog's stomach and dont stress over it.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

My Sadie has always had a dodgy tummy. The only food that didn’t give her the runs was Chappie. She’s in poor health now but she’s also nearly 14, so I don’t think she’s done too badly on it.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

lullabydream said:


> Funny you've changed your tune...or is it she's a member of your precious forum?
> 
> One search here and your usually bleating on about how grains are all evil? Kibble is the work of the devil and quite frankly upset kibble feeders with your attitude?
> 
> At least this member you can't send a pm to and suggest going to the other forum like the rest?


And lo, he said unto me "join us on the dark side where we drink the blood of oats and feed on fattened chestnut roast" :Android


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Just as a general FYI, everything you post on this forum is visible to _anyone_ who has google. They don't have to be a member here, the whole forum (except maybe the health section?) is visible without a membership. 
As are other forums


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Lol, this place never changes. People asking for help get one, maybe two replies, but a thread about FOOD gets pages and pages of responses.

My view - i will feed a species appropriate diet (look at the BSE/CJD horror that came about from feeding animals something they werent designed to eat). I want to minimise the potential long term health risks, and i feel the correct diet is one way to do this. I dont want to find out a diet is wrong when its too late to do anything about it (im aware of anecdotal evidence to suggest pea protein and legumes in general *may* affect cardiac health).

If they made a horse poo based diet, im sure Ned would be interested.


----------



## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Nonnie said:


> Lol, this place never changes. People asking for help get one, maybe two replies, but a thread about FOOD gets pages and pages of responses.
> 
> My view - i will feed a species appropriate diet (look at the BSE/CJD horror that came about from feeding animals something they werent designed to eat). I want to minimise the potential long term health risks, and i feel the correct diet is one way to do this. I dont want to find out a diet is wrong when its too late to do anything about it (im aware of anecdotal evidence to suggest pea protein and legumes in general *may* affect cardiac health).
> 
> If they made a horse poo based diet, im sure Ned would be interested.


Dan would love a goose poo diet lol! What is it with dogs and other species poo...?


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> Insects are animals yes.


My vegan sensibilities do not extent do fleas and ticks and are sorely tested by fire ants and chiggers. 
Spiders though always get safely relocated. Though I do wish they would return my kindnesses with where they put their webs. Nothing like walking through a web on the trail :Spiderman

I think most dog owners on here, vegan or not, will happily treat their pets with products that kill fleas, ticks, worms and other parasites. It does get complicated this vegan thing doesn't it?


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> My vegan sensibilities do not extent do fleas and ticks and are sorely tested by fire ants and chiggers.
> Spiders though always get safely relocated. Though I do wish they would return my kindnesses with where they put their webs. Nothing like walking through a web on the trail :Spiderman
> 
> I think most dog owners on here, vegan or not, will happily treat their pets with products that kill fleas, ticks, worms and other parasites. It does get complicated this vegan thing doesn't it?


Definitely! Prevention is better than cure.
She is regularly ?anti-parasited? and has not yet (fingers crossed) had anything in over 2 years.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Beth78 said:


> Definitely! Prevention is better than cure.
> She is regularly ?anti-parasited? and has not yet (fingers crossed) had anything in over 2 years.


Ticks are arachnids.
I found a spider in my laundry basket this morning, massive chap. Seems to think he has a home there but may have to re locate as it's washing day tomorrow 
What are chiggers ??


----------



## Amanda Sturdy (Jun 16, 2018)

I read a vets paper and she believes in species appropriate diets I think her words sum it up
*survive versus *thrive


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Thrive= happy, healthy, glossy. Runs, plays, enjoys life.


----------



## Amanda Sturdy (Jun 16, 2018)

Thrive yes all blood tests come back within normal perimeters.Taurine levels just being one test would not be picked up on a routine blood test.You asked for an opinion and personally people do this to make themselves happy it's not about the dog it's about you


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

*Taurine* and L-carnitine are amino acids that *dogs* can obtain through their diets. Both *taurine* and L-carnitine can be produced using *vegan* sources and included in a plant-based diet. In fact, supplementation with *vegan taurine* is the industry standard, even for meat-based kibbles.


----------



## Amanda Sturdy (Jun 16, 2018)

Thats a whole other ball game some would argue that taurine from a meat contains all the necessary nutrients.My point is with feeding an appropriate diet its preventative medicine.With all the will in the world its what is natural its like feeding a rabbit sausage and bacon.We have specific blood tests for anemia,liver function, kidney.etc.These are specialised tests and are not covered on routine blood tests.We all want to do our best and i honestly think passing on our own ethics to an animal what as no choice in the matter is wrong.Would your dog choose this diet i doubt it and more so does not get the choice you made for you its about you


----------



## psychund (Jul 10, 2019)

I think if my dogs chose their diet they'd be in pretty bad shape 

I don't have much to add except that I don't think there's enough research out there on dogs eating vegan to form a very educated opinion. Seems like a lot of hassle to make sure your dog is eating a balanced diet, but if you have the resources and energy to do that and your dog is doing well, it's none of my business.

Would I do it? No. Do I care that other people do? Also no. Unless of course they're being negligent about it, which it doesn't seem like the OP is. 

Interesting discussion!


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I think it's a good thing being able to express opinions, share knowledge and have debates about things. It's how people learn. 
And that's why forums exist.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> What are chiggers ??


A horrible tiny bug that favors seams of clothing so you get a line of itchy bites along places like your bra strap or the waist of your underwear. Then you itch for several days in inappropriate places :Arghh



Beth78 said:


> She is regularly ?anti-parasited? and has not yet (fingers crossed) had anything in over 2 years.


Academic question then. 
If you feed a vegan diet because you don't want to harm animals, and insects are animals, how do you square deliberately killing insects with routine flea, tick, and worm preventatives?

If you rationalize that you're killing the insects because you're prioritizing the needs of your pet over the lives of insects (nothing wrong with that BTW), then could you not use the same logic when it comes to feeding? That your pet's needs trump your vegan ethics?

I'm asking as much for myself as for anything. I am vegan(ish) for both ethical and health reasons, but my dogs and cats eat a meat based diet. I've done the mental gymnastics myself, but am always updating the routine 

Oh, and I don't ask others for their opinions on how my animals are fed - or my family for that matter


----------



## psychund (Jul 10, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> A horrible tiny bug that favors seams of clothing so you get a line of itchy bites along places like your bra strap or the waist of your underwear. Then you itch for several days in inappropriate places :Arghh
> 
> Academic question then.
> If you feed a vegan diet because you don't want to harm animals, and insects are animals, how do you square deliberately killing insects with routine flea, tick, and worm preventatives?


I'm vegan as well, though didn't feel it necessary to disclose before, and I always thought these types of questions to be a bit silly and odd. I guess if you want to get technical in that sense, everyone has the right to protect ourselves from intrusion and harm. If a lion escaped from the zoo and burst through my bedroom door right now I would do everything in my power to survive, even if that meant harming the lion. On a smaller scale, if I or my animals had worms, I certainly wouldn't just share my body or expect my dog to.

Veganism to me has always just meant being conscious of my decision and consumption and doing as little harm as reasonably possible, but that doesn't mean laying my life down for some parasites 

This is coming from a vegan that likes honey in their coffee however, so maybe I'm just a bad vegan. Who knows.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

psychund said:


> I'm vegan as well, though didn't feel it necessary to disclose before, and I always thought these types of questions to be a bit silly and odd. I guess if you want to get technical in that sense, everyone has the right to protect ourselves from intrusion and harm. If a lion escaped from the zoo and burst through my bedroom door right now I would do everything in my power to survive, even if that meant harming the lion. On a smaller scale, if I or my animals had worms, I certainly wouldn't just share my body or expect my dog to.


Yes, well I did preface the whole thing by saying it was an academic question.

As for the analogy of a lion escaping the zoo versus a parasite, sorry but it falls flat for me. Removing a tick from my dog and killing it, is not even remotely the same thing as defending oneself from an attack. If we're getting technical as you say 

Where I live there are in fact several animals that can and have killed humans and despite my share of encounters I've yet to have need to use anything other than a big bad primate display to encourage the animal to leave us alone. Somehow fleas and ticks are not as easily scared away.....


----------



## psychund (Jul 10, 2019)

I can't see this conversation going much place else, so I'll opt out of further comment other than to say I'm glad you've had luck with larger animals! Here's to hoping you find some for the much smaller.


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

There is no such thing as a bad or 100% vegan.
For me it is about making choices that impact the planet and animals the least.
It is inevitable there will be contradictions whilst doing this.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> There is no such thing as a bad or 100% vegan.
> For me it is about making choices that impact the planet and animals the least.
> It is inevitable there will be contradictions whilst doing this.


Of course there are contradictions but surely examining our decisions, the reasoning behind them, and perhaps re-evaluating as new information comes along is a useful endeavor?

For example the invention of cultures meat I think will be a total game changer in the near future. I don't miss meat myself, but for many ethical vegans who do miss their hamburgers, being able to indulge in meat produced without an animal having to lose his/her life is a new option.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Vegan Dogs said:


> My dogs and cat are thriving fed vegan.
> 
> We do not have the right to force death on prisoner animals we breed and keep.


Some might say the same about you, having pets at all. Not to mention feeding carnivores a diet they cannot thrive on. What right do you have to force your fake values on any animal?


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm confused. 
Are the prisoner animals we breed and keep supposed to be our pets? Or factory farmed meat animals? Or???


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

This is slightly off-topic, but came to mind when I saw the ''vegan'' and decided to look at it. Feeding a cat for a friend of mine a while back and she was having some problem, think it must have been allergy-related and I suggested pork. I was told they would not give her pork as they were Jewish, so I guess the same would apply if they had a dog.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Vegan Dogs said:


> Animals bred and killed by us.


Still not sure what you're referring to. 
Like a pet dog I've bred and then has to be euthanized in old age?
Or a pig I've raised and then slaughter for meat? 
Or???


Vegan Dogs said:


> Every right by law is the truth.
> 
> It is legal to kill any animal owned just as it is legal to feed a pet legal petfood.


This is starting to sound like Zoroaster mumbo jumbo...

Dogs are opportunistic scavengers and hunters, I feed them accordingly. 
Cats are obligate carnivores, I feed them appropriately. 
Humans are omnivores, I feed myself a vegan-ish diet.

I'm all about reflecting on our food choices and choices in general when it comes to sharing this planet with others, but I also don't feel the need to overcomplicate my existence with rigid rules that don't necessarily make sense.


----------



## Guest (Nov 9, 2021)

If I had a vegan pet such as a rabbit or guinea pig, I would feed them a vegan diet. 
It would be cruel to feed a pure carnivore a non carnivorous diet in my view.
Your pet has no choice but to eat what you give them, unless they have access to other food or prey.


----------



## Guest (Nov 9, 2021)

Cats are biologically designed to eat meat. If you keep a cat then it should have a meat based diet. To do otherwise is cruel. 
Dogs can have a more mixed diet being omnivores. 
Feed an animal a biologically appropriate diet, not the diet you chose for yourself. If I was on a paleo diet I would still feed my rabbit a plant only based diet. 
We will not agree I see.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Vegan Dogs said:


> It is not cruel at all . The animals we breed and kill find that definitely cruel even if we do not. They get no choice over life or death.


Serious question @Vegan Dogs 
Have you ever had an animal euthanized to end the suffering? Did you consider your actions cruel?


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Vegan Dogs said:


> The petfood government experts disagree with your view, they know very well what is by law species appropriate nutrition needed for cats etc.


LOL I am laughing my ass off here. What a cat box full of crap! Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about and are just out to stir people up.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

lorilu said:


> LOL I am laughing my ass off here. What a cat box full of crap! Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about and are just out to stir people up.


Me too, finding the whole thing hilarious


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Hopefully the mods will see fit to put an end to it soon. He's getting way too much attention.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Vegan Dogs said:


> The *petfood government* experts disagree with your view


I'm sorry, what now?
Could you please provide a link to the petfood government?


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> I'm sorry, what now?
> Could you please provide a link to the petfood government?


lol. He's gone. (or she)


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Why have all of vegan dog's posts disappeared too? 
It makes for very strange reading. Also wondering if I imagined it all?!


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I was having this conversation with my sister just the other day. She is a very strict vegan; food, clothes, products. If anything happens to me she gets boxers. She would still feed them meat. She doesn’t mind buying them meat as it stands.

I think it depends on your dog. Loki wouldn’t cope with his dodgy tum and Sox well he loves his food if he were hooman he’d be a food critic. He would take himself back to the breeder if a vegan diet were introduced.


----------



## Evee Martin (Nov 10, 2021)

i've never seen any vegan dogs!


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> I was having this conversation with my sister just the other day. She is a very strict vegan; food, clothes, products. If anything happens to me she gets boxers. She would still feed them meat. She doesn't mind buying them meat as it stands.
> 
> I think it depends on your dog. Loki wouldn't cope with his dodgy tum and Sox well he loves his food if he were hooman he'd be a food critic. He would take himself back to the breeder if a vegan diet were introduced.


Way back in the 80's some South African friends of mine had two JRT brothers both of whom from puppyhood had suffered from severe skin problems due to food allergies. As a last resort their vet put the puppies on a strict vegan diet which cleared up all their skin issues. When I saw them they'd be about 7 years old, still eating vegan, and healthy active dogs..


----------



## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Evee Martin said:


> i've never seen any vegan dogs!


.....how would you know they were vegan just by looking.....??


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> Way back in the 80's some South African friends of mine had two JRT brothers both of whom from puppyhood had suffered from severe skin problems due to food allergies. As a last resort their vet put the puppies on a strict vegan diet which cleared up all their skin issues. When I saw them they'd be about 7 years old, still eating vegan, and healthy active dogs..


Loki I think I have figured out isn't allergies it's about bulk, timing of feeding and digestion time. If his belly gets empty he gets acid and vomits. He likes raw but if he just eats raw he's sick in the morning. If I mix it with his vet meat he's fine. He's really settled at the moment. I think a vegan diet would play havoc with his issues. I'm not saying it's wrong for all dogs. Sox is a meat and cheese man it makes him happy who is to argue.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Quite a number of dogs have issues with chicken, changing to another protein source will help them enormously. It does happen that the occasional dog can’t eat any meat protein, but it is unusual.


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Siskin said:


> Quite a number of dogs have issues with chicken, changing to another protein source will help them enormously. It does happen that the occasional dog can't eat any meat protein, but it is unusual.


Absolutely I cut chicken out of Loki's diet for a while but actually he's fine with it. A lot of foods contain sneaky chicken so you have to be careful.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> Loki I think I have figured out isn't allergies it's about bulk, timing of feeding and digestion time. If his belly gets empty he gets acid and vomits. He likes raw but if he just eats raw he's sick in the morning. If I mix it with his vet meat he's fine. He's really settled at the moment. I think a vegan diet would play havoc with his issues. I'm not saying it's wrong for all dogs. Sox is a meat and cheese man it makes him happy who is to argue.


I'm so glad you've managed to get his belly under control now. Fingers crossed that's the end of his tummy troubles!
Some dogs are allergic to a lot of meats and for them a vegan diet is probably easier and cheaper to feed than a really rare or obscure meat diet like kangaroo or camel. If I was given a bag of vegan dog food I'd happily feed it, but just not for every meal or for a long period of time. But I wouldn't go out and buy it specifically.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Why have all of vegan dog's posts disappeared too?
> It makes for very strange reading. Also wondering if I imagined it all?!


And yet all the quoted posts are still there.

Weird!


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Sarah H said:


> I'm so glad you've managed to get his belly under control now. Fingers crossed that's the end of his tummy troubles!
> Some dogs are allergic to a lot of meats and for them a vegan diet is probably easier and cheaper to feed than a really rare or obscure meat diet like kangaroo or camel. If I was given a bag of vegan dog food I'd happily feed it, but just not for every meal or for a long period of time. But I wouldn't go out and buy it specifically.


I feel much the same way as you. Fortunately my two seem to have iron cast stomachs.

There was a very interest article in the Guardian late last month about feeding dogs vegan diets.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...ts-and-dogs-as-meat-says-veterinary-professor

*Vegan pet food as healthy for cats and dogs as meat, says veterinary professor*

But plant-based meals still need added nutrients, says academic, and BVA warns over dietary deficiency


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MilleD said:


> And yet all the quoted posts are still there.
> 
> Weird!


Not weird...it's what happens when you are labelled as spam and then treated as such 
I just haven't had the time or inclination to sort out the quoted posts 

Back to the topic:

Until there are far more studies to show how a purely vegan diet effects a dog over a prolonged period of time then it's a huge nope from me...first off we need to sort out the prevalence of poultry used in complete dog foods when many dogs are completely intolerant of poultry. 
Due to dogs being opportunistic scavengers that have evolved to digest some plant matter they are bound to cope on a vegan diet...unless there is a medical reason for an individual dog that requires a processed vegan diet then for me it's going a step too far to push dietary requirements onto a pet that has no choice. Especially when we only have anecdotal evidence to say that it's ok...just because a few dogs survive on it, or even live to a great age...it does not mean that it is suitable for all dogs, nor does it mean that we should be using those anecdotes as a reason to suggest that a vegan diet is ok long term.

I'd like to see a shift away from heavily processed "complete" foods before a push towards a heavily processed "vegan" diet.

Just my thoughts...


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Not weird...it's what happens when you are labelled as spam and then treated as such
> I just haven't had the time or inclination to sort out the quoted posts


Ha ha! Fair enough


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> I'd like to see a shift away from heavily processed "complete" foods before a push towards a heavily processed "vegan" diet.


This. 
The dogs I knew growing up survived with very minimal meat in their diet eating mainly gruels of oats, barley and whatever other cheap grain was available. But it wasn't highly processed.

Cats are different because they never evolved to process grains like dogs did and they're obligate carnivores because they can't synthesize amino acids like taurine, so they need the actual meat in their diet. 
I think a lot of 'vegan' cats are living as long as they do because they supplement their diets with kills.


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> This.
> The dogs I knew growing up survived with very minimal meat in their diet eating mainly gruels of oats, barley and whatever other cheap grain was available. But it wasn't highly processed.
> 
> Cats are different because they never evolved to process grains like dogs did and they're obligate carnivores because they can't synthesize amino acids like taurine, so they need the actual meat in their diet.
> I think a lot of 'vegan' cats are living as long as they do because they supplement their diets with kills.


My dogs' fave food is our left overs from a Sunday roast 

The vegan cat catching their own meat comment reminded me of when we had a rescue Greyhound somewhere I worked. He was owned by the receptionist who was a vegan and fed the dog a vegetarian diet. He was generally a chilled out dog who just lounged around not bothering with anyone or anything (typical grey). However our office was in the carpark of a country park, and there were small furries that would run past the doors, or up the trees outside. So if the dog was awake his owner would tell us all to be careful coming in and out of the doors as the dog would bolt out to try and catch the rabbits or squirrels and proceed to eat them if successful :Hilarious:Hilarious This horrified her  Couldn't help but laugh and mention that maybe the dog didn't want to be veggie??


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> This.
> The dogs I knew growing up survived with very minimal meat in their diet eating mainly gruels of oats, barley and whatever other cheap grain was available. But it wasn't highly processed.
> 
> Cats are different because they never evolved to process grains like dogs did and they're obligate carnivores because they can't synthesize amino acids like taurine, so they need the actual meat in their diet.
> I think a lot of 'vegan' cats are living as long as they do because they supplement their diets with kills.


Totally off topic. It was researchers at the University of Uppsala that isolated the genes causing SPAID in Shar-Pei.

https://www.science.org/content/article/how-farming-changed-dog

*How farming changed the dog*
*Early farmers pushed dog genomes toward vegetarianism*


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Not weird...it's what happens when you are labelled as spam and then treated as such
> I just haven't had the time or inclination to sort out the quoted posts


Of course we could have just removed the whole thread, but it's an interesting topic and that would be a shame.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Of course we could have just removed the whole thread, but it's an interesting topic and that would be a shame.


I'm glad you didn't remove the whole thread


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I’ve only checked a few vegan dog foods so I don’t know how prevalent it is, but there seems to be pea used as a protein in the food. Now I have an issue with this as a golden retriever owner. Goldens, along with several other breeds, can suffer from DCM (enlarged heart) which can be a genetic issue in some breeds, but ongoing studies have shown that pulses particularly peas, can prevent the take up of taurine in the food leading to heart issues. It appears goldens seem not to be able to store taurine as well as other breeds and need a regular intake, if pulses are in the food then that intake is hampered. Giving taurine as an additive as opposed to that found naturally in meat doesn’t seem to help. 
My last golden was fed most of her life on a low meat protein diet where the extra protein was supplemented by peas, I thought this seemed a good thing to give her. Sadly she was diagnosed with DCM when she was 11/12 years, thinking back I suspect she was suffering from the condition for much longer. DCM genetically is not considered to be a health issue in goldens, so it is more likely she got this through her diet. I do feel guilty that the food I gave her because I thought it was better for her could have caused the condition.


----------

