# Loose bowel movements streaked with blood and mucous



## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

I have just finished talking to the vet about our puppy. He had slightly loose movements again, but this time streaked with blood. We think it is due to attempting to change his food. If he is no better tomorrow I have to take him to vet, but he is extremely lively and eating well, shows no signs of illness. I didnt give him a meal this morning so he was effectively starved 12 hours (I felt 24 was too much for an 11 week pup). Then he had cooked chicken and rice at midday, and I am continuing this for a couple of days, as advised by vet, then gradually phasing the James Wellbeloved in, but very slowly. Do you think Im on the right lines?

It has also occurred to me that it might actually be the rawhide chews that are irritating him and not his food. I have picked them all up, so he just has his toys. Can you suggest a chewable alternative to the rawhide chews as he really enjoys chewing.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Sounds like you're on the right track at the moment. Take care when phasing in the dry. I had many a bout of colitis with Arnie when he was a pup which was put down to a gluten intolerance in the end, but he seems to have outgrown it  As far as the chews go, dont know what to suggest as I know you need to be careful with pups. If theres a pets at home or similar near you pop down and see what they have, but dont get anything with colourings in em.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks. The chews I have (rawhide) are from [email protected] and they were the plainest they had, nothing but rawhide. I have never trusted those chopped up ones with colour in, but if anyone can suggest anything else please let me know.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

You seemed to of got it all sorted,.....as for the chews, all mine have the P&H rawhide chews, I buy them all the time for my lot, but once they chew it so it is floppy then I throw them out and give a fresh one, I never buy the tiny knotted bones ones, I always buy them the bigger bones ones, dont buy the shoes because the laces come out and can choke them. AVOID the coloured ones, one of my dogs always have the runs with the coloured ones, so I dont buy those anymore. If you have a store called The Range anywhere near you then buy the chews from there as they are alot cheaper and the sizes are better too. xxxxxxxxxxx
Keep a check on the blood in the poo ok.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

The Pets at homes ones are those rawhide twists, they look like pencils BUT he has had a couple of those shoes in the last couple of days. I didnt know that about the lacing. I suppose that could irritate his gut. I will be stopping those.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Get some pro-kolin, it's wonderful stuff for stomach upsets in dogs and puppies. Our vet gave us some both times when we went with our puppy when she had an upset tummy and it worked wonders.
Protexin Prokolin + Antidiarrhoeal Probiotic Paste - £6.66


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks. Our vet gave us some Canikur a couple of weeks ago which is a similar thing, but he only gave 2 days worth.

I might order some.

Chews are now in the bin. Last movement was free from blood or mucous but was sloppy and pale brown. (sorry if TMI)


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## DelboyTrotter (Nov 14, 2009)

Would be tempted to avoid the rawhide chews myself. Try not to make any significant changes in the diet either, any changes need to be made over a gradual period of time.


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

Rawhide is very high in protein and does cause a runny tum.

I prefer to give them raw marrowbones.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Are these the bones that you just ask the butcher for? I expect they will have to be sawn up for such a tiny dog! I will try our local butcher and see if they have any. Do they sell them at Pets at Home? I would actually like to give him a bone, I know what a strong urge to chew they have and also how they kept our other dogs quiet for hours. I would never ever give a smaller bone though, eg chicken, despite the current interest in the raw diet.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> Are these the bones that you just ask the butcher for? I expect they will have to be sawn up for such a tiny dog! I will try our local butcher and see if they have any. Do they sell them at Pets at Home? I would actually like to give him a bone, I know what a strong urge to chew they have and also how they kept our other dogs quiet for hours. I would never ever give a smaller bone though, eg chicken, despite the current interest in the raw diet.


Be careful, my dog has a pretty good constitution, but marrow bones upset his tum.
Use the Pro Kolin to settle the tum
Just leave all extras out for the time being, get him settled on a food, then when you do add treats, do it one at a time and you will then know what he is ok with


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

OK will do!

Have to get something for him to chew though, I have just stopped him ripping the hell out of the Argos catalogue.

Just had another couple of very runny pale brown poos, but no more blood.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2009)

Our Chessie loves this, and it's quite soft for little teeth and gums 
Chuckle / Waggle Product Description - Premier Pet


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks, will look out for those. I already have a kong but as we have stopped the dry food I havent used it today.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

The chicken and rice has made him looser than ever before. This morning he did a puddle of caramac coloured liquid. I am loathe to carry on with the chicken and rice. No blood or pus though. He had scrambled egg for his breakfast which he has had before and tolerated well. Im still on poop watch though. I didnt think there were so many ways to describe doggy poop.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> The chicken and rice has made him looser than ever before. This morning he did a puddle of caramac coloured liquid. I am loathe to carry on with the chicken and rice. No blood or pus though. He had scrambled egg for his breakfast which he has had before and tolerated well. Im still on poop watch though. I didnt think there were so many ways to describe doggy poop.


Mine can't tolerate chicken, try white fish instead


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## Stellabelly (Jul 11, 2009)

Stella suffered with this mid-October along with sickness and had blood test etc which all came back fine so they were a bit stumped. She was given pro-kaolin and it made her sick and anti-nausea tablets and anti-biotics. She was given a prescription diet as they decided it could be IBS. 

She has been fine until yesterday when she got bloody diarrhoea and sickness again. I am wondering if it's stress because we've been having our patio done and she spnet most of Thursday barking at the guy and got really worked up.

She's 2 1/2 and doesn't normally suffer tummy upsets.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2009)

Stellabelly said:


> Stella suffered with this mid-October along with sickness and had blood test etc which all came back fine so they were a bit stumped. She was given pro-kaolin and it made her sick and anti-nausea tablets and anti-biotics. She was given a prescription diet as they decided it could be IBS.
> 
> She has been fine until yesterday when she got bloody diarrhoea and sickness again. I am wondering if it's stress because we've been having our patio done and she spnet most of Thursday barking at the guy and got really worked up.
> 
> She's 2 1/2 and doesn't normally suffer tummy upsets.


Having been in animal husbandry most of my life, I can guarantee that one of the main triggers of diarrhea is stress


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> It has also occurred to me that it might actually be the rawhide chews that are irritating him and not his food. I have picked them all up, so he just has his toys. Can you suggest a chewable alternative to the rawhide chews as he really enjoys chewing.


Dr Chew does chews made from sweet potato dried hard, no additives or preservatives. They come in a resealable 454g bag, for a pup you will want the small or petite size (petite is smaller pieces) depending on size/breed of dog. My adult dog and pup love them, and as they are just dried sweet potato I had a bit of one myself - and very nice it was too!


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Thank you I will look for Dr Chew. Are they mail order only?

This afternoon and tonight the bowel movements are firmer and brown with no blood or mucous. Thats with scrambled egg and James Wellbeloved.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> Thank you I will look for Dr Chew. Are they mail order only?
> 
> This afternoon and tonight the bowel movements are firmer and brown with no blood or mucous. Thats with scrambled egg and James Wellbeloved.


I have only ever bought them from a stall called Grizzly Salmon Oil that goes round the agility shows - I stock up when I see the stall, ideally getting the short-dated reduced price ones. I have fed them up to 2 years after the sell by and they're fine. The company's address is in the USA. If you google them you should come up with a UK distributor, with that it's possible your local pet shop would be able to order some in for you - that way you avoid paying postage..


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## Stellabelly (Jul 11, 2009)

I've been intersested in this post as stella has started to suffer the same thing. The first bout I thought could be allergy to new bonio rawhide chews I got for her but now think could be stress unless she has developed an allergy torawhide chews in general.
Anyway googled Dr Chew as interested in this chew as may be better for her and found this supplier
Natural Pet Products Ltd - Contact Us/Postage Info


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Stellabelly said:


> I've been intersested in this post as stella has started to suffer the same thing. The first bout I thought could be allergy to new bonio rawhide chews I got for her but now think could be stress unless she has developed an allergy torawhide chews in general.
> Anyway googled Dr Chew as interested in this chew as may be better for her and found this supplier
> Natural Pet Products Ltd - Contact Us/Postage Info


thanks for that, both of you! :thumbup1:

I found some Dr Chew on ebay too, also noticed the fish 4 dogs treats. Whilst I was browsing ebay, I noticed the Bulls Pizzles (yes they are willies) but found the idea offputting, also I can imagine the questions our three girls would ask!!

I also remembered that I used to get some dried tripe for my old dog, which was like chews, but it stank! God it Stank!


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## WaveRider (Sep 8, 2009)

Have you tried pig ears? My puppy chews on them and she appears to consume/digest them without any issues.

Only other treats she has is is springbok hide and kangaroo meat. Waiting to try the Wild Boar!

CANIBIT Wild Boar Dog Chew at zooplus

Once she tried the hide you get from petsathome etc. She vomited a large square cut of it.

Having looked at the nutritional data from many of the chews in pets at home they all appear to contain a blend of ingredients rather than raw content only. Meat derivatives, sugars etc.. Not good for your dog.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

We arent firming up yet!!!

The ProKolin came today and he has had one dose. His poos have all been brown on JWB but loose. Egg isnt firming him up either but he absolutely adores it. I might be being impatient, but its making his anal glands congested and he is scooting. Plus with him having long hair, its a messy job at poo time. Im doing a lot of trimming as well as washing!

How long will it take him to firm up on James Wellbeloved? Or are loose moments commonplace on this food?


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

We are going back to the vets on Thursday, but if anyone has found a food that causes constipation, please tell us!!!


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

Don't feed him eggs if he's loose, with mine it makes things 100 times worse 

Personally I'd get him back to the vet before thursday, it must be making him feel really crap  THe prokolin should kick in by tomorrow, he'll seem much better, but remember, it most probably isn't the cure you're looking for, it's just working on the symptom not the cause.

Have you tried giving him some mashed up banana ans some natural yoghurt? That's givig him both pro and pre biotics.. Slippery elm powder also works well on a lot of dogs.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> We are going back to the vets on Thursday, but if anyone has found a food that causes constipation, please tell us!!!


Try tinned Chappie, and nothing else


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

my pups have these
Nylabone Puppy Teething Keys - Dog-Toy.co.uk
P&H sell them
also enjoy a carrot to chew on. hope he perks up soon


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

kazschow said:


> Don't feed him eggs if he's loose, with mine it makes things 100 times worse
> 
> Personally I'd get him back to the vet before thursday, it must be making him feel really crap  THe prokolin should kick in by tomorrow, he'll seem much better, but remember, it most probably isn't the cure you're looking for, it's just working on the symptom not the cause.
> 
> Have you tried giving him some mashed up banana ans some natural yoghurt? That's givig him both pro and pre biotics.. Slippery elm powder also works well on a lot of dogs.


I didnt think he would eat banana. I give it to the kids if they need firming up! I was avoiding natural yogurt because I have been told that milk is really bad for their stomachs and as I have lactose intolerance, I dont want the dog to be going through it too!

The latest poos are dark brown and softly formed, presumably due to the prokolin. He definitely isnt ill and isnt feeling badly. He is extremely full of life and happy! Its just change of diet I think. I was just too eager to get him off that cheapo pets at home stuff as it wasnt good quality, then he got loose and so I tried chicken and rice which almost made him s**t through the eye of a needle as my mother would say! He was loose way before the egg got introduced, and it has helped a bit.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

rona said:


> Try tinned Chappie, and nothing else


Might do if JWB doesnt work. My mum had a dog with sensitive digestion and she did well on Chappie. I would like to give a dried food though.


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## Puma (Nov 17, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> Might do if JWB doesnt work. My mum had a dog with sensitive digestion and she did well on Chappie. I would like to give a dried food though.


JWB in not held in such high regard as it once was, it is known to cause loose bowel movements and excessive waste, taking into consideration the problems regarding the bowel movements, maybe you would be better looking for an alternative food, that said make any change gradual.
Lou


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

The list of reject foods is growing!!


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## maya (Mar 20, 2009)

Our puppy was like this. We had been feeding him jameswellbeloved and naturediet after a lot of research on here and the internet. We felt we had the best diet for him and he loved it, but he got to the point that he was expelling what looked like muddy water four times a day and waking in the night for an urgent visit to the garden. We tried rice but it made it worse, gave him a swollen belly as well.

So off to the vet we went. He suggested first off change his food to one that is designed to slow down the food passing through, which was Hills Prescription diet w/d. The vet said that our puppy's digestive system was working too fast and pushing the food through too quickly, and this special food would slow it down. Well it worked a treat within a day, and within a few days his poo was firm and a little crumbly, just right apparently! 
After three months we decided to see if he could go back to his old food but again within a day his poo was getting very runny so back on to the Hills he went. 
He can tolerate little treats of egg, cheese, chicken, potato and even sausage every now and then but his main diet is the Hills.

People on here complain about grains in food but not all dogs can tolerate high protein diets.


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## maya (Mar 20, 2009)

I'd like to add that we had planned on feeding him arden grange and naturediet, but had a sample of JWB that he really seemed to like!

Also we changed his diet immediately under the vets instructions and saw results very quickly, and it was such a relief that it was treatable and nothing more serious.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2009)

maya said:


> I'd like to add that we had planned on feeding him arden grange and naturediet, but had a sample of JWB that he really seemed to like!
> 
> Also we changed his diet immediately under the vets instructions and saw results very quickly, and it was such a relief that it was treatable and nothing more serious.


It didn't turn into anything more serious because of your prompt action, so many people and vets leave this type of thing far to long, sometimes with lifelong consequences


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## keithmckevitt (Nov 18, 2009)

rona said:


> Try tinned Chappie, and nothing else


We have bought a Cairn Terrier at 18mths old about 12 weeks ago. He had loose stools possibly due to the stress of moving house or the food he was eating. We were advised by a fellow Cairn Terrier owner to use Chappie which we did and he has been fine since. It does say on the can that vets recommend it and it contains fish which he loves as opposed to the red meat type foods in jelly. .


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## IvanLowinski (Nov 16, 2009)

boiled rice with a little boiled chicken for hardening poos.
it work all time for me.

Ivan


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2009)

IvanLowinski said:


> boiled rice with a little boiled chicken for hardening poos.
> it work all time for me.
> 
> Ivan


A lot of dogs can't tolerate chicken, white fish is a good alternative


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

IvanLowinski said:


> boiled rice with a little boiled chicken for hardening poos.
> it work all time for me.
> 
> Ivan


Makes it worse. Tried this earlier.

Vet tomorrow for vaccination. Will discuss food. May get Chappie. Thanks everyone.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Saw a lovely lady vet today. She thought Hedley was in good health and gaining weight and growing well. She didnt think the foods themselves were at fault, but was concerned about the worming situation. I havent been giving enough worming solution. I followed the directions of the person we got him from, but accept he has probably doubled in size since they weighed him! She wants me to give panacur today and for next 2 days i.e. 3 days in a row, at a higher dose now he has grown. She says that will get rid of all worms and also if you do it for 3 days it gets rid of giardia and something else (cant remember). She gave me a stool sample pot and offered to test it if this doesnt settle down. She was happy enough with him on James Wellbeloved puppy duck and rice, I mentioned chappie and she said thats fine also.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2009)

Sounds like you've got quite a good vet there


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## IvanLowinski (Nov 16, 2009)

James Wellbeloved is good food for dog.
cost more but good for dog. not full of fillers.
Have you got the worms out of it yet? :thumbup1:


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

rona said:


> Sounds like you've got quite a good vet there


There are several partners, its probably just luck who you get. I did feel that they were very caring though, and the vet nurses who were on reception were helpful each time I rang them. Its only 2 miles away, open every day except Christmas day, its not part of a chain, and they carry a range of pet goods for sale, including James Wellbeloved, plus things like collars lead s toys nail clippers etc. So it seems to tick all the boxes. I suppose the test will be when he is really ill. He is insured, and I did mean to ask them if they took insurance payments direct as that would be useful.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Chappie has done the trick. Firm and brown this morning!!! Put out the flags. He isnt eating it as quickly as he was yesterday though. I think its the old "I like a new tin best, dont like that one thats been in the fridge". Our other dog was like this with the other half can.

I need to find some charts now that will give me a clue as to how much a day he needs. It says on the back 5kg dog 1 can a day. He 1.7kg so Im giving half a tin a day divided by 4, but what I will be doing is checking one of those charts which says how many calories a pup needs a day at particular age/weight, and working it out from there (I hope). Unless anyone else knows.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2009)

Dog Food: Nutrition, Dog Food Ingredients & Nutritional Requirements for Adult Dogs & Puppies

- About Pet Food

Glad the Chappie has worked :thumbup1:


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks. 390 calories according to the first link. But of course the tin doesnt have the calories on! Need to do some more research.:001_huh:


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## meisha (Dec 28, 2008)

Hi, my boy had the same and it took some investigating to find out what was wrong.. he still has occasionally sloppy poo's but I think this is due to the odd dead mammal he chomps on from the woods :mad2:
Changing food could be causing the bleeding, also straining causes bleeding. Mucus is good as we all need mucus to pass a stool just make sure it isnt bright green or yellow and there isnt too much of it. It should just lye on top of the stool. I changed my dogs food over about 14 days, previously I did it over a week and this still upset their tummies.
bad infestation of worms also cause bleeding. Panacur is a good one to use in pups although it has to be used over 3 days as you stated. When he is older you could change to drontal or a spot on like advocate or stronghold (which is a flea treatment too).
Chappie is very good for upset tummies and allergies. My boy has a rice and soya allergy and after lots of trials with good brand kibble both dogs settled on butchers canned with fresh veg and foldhill mixer. Not alot of people agree with canned food as it doesnt clean teeth as good as kibble and it produces huge poo's! BUT its what the dog adapts to that counts. I tried Natures menu, JWB, wainrights, wafcol, burns the lot... they hated it!!! so now its the old and trusted butchers with no gluten, wheat, cereals or soya which is perfect for my little babies!!
good luck and I hope the bleeding and runs have stopped.
x


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks. No more blood or mucous, and the colour is dark brown and its formed but still soft.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

I am going to keep him on Chappie for a while and keep his gut calm. Maybe a week or two. I want to use a puppy food soon though as not sure if chappie enough nourishment for him.

I would like to try later with dry food, and thought very very gradually introducing / trying Wafcol Salmon and Potato puppy. Anyone used this?


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> I am going to keep him on Chappie for a while and keep his gut calm. Maybe a week or two. I want to use a puppy food soon though as not sure if chappie enough nourishment for him.
> 
> I would like to try later with dry food, and thought very very gradually introducing / trying Wafcol Salmon and Potato puppy. Anyone used this?


I would keep on with the Chappie for at least 3 weeks


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

EEK! there was blood at the end of the bowel movement again BUT no diarrhoea, this morning. I think I know why. I sent husband for extra Chappie supplies as you know this is the only thing at the moment that doesnt cause diarrhoea. He bought a six pack. I didnt read the small print and as it turns out some of the Chappie cans are chicken and rice, some are original. The original is what he had and its fish based. Yesterday he had chicken variety (can looks pretty much the same, easy mistake). We are back on the original.

I chatted to Waltham who make Chappie about their products and they confirmed it was an adult food and I should speak to my vet about him having it as they dont do a puppy food. I also asked him about the dried Chappie. I was told that this was a different food altogether and has NO FISH in it, the protein being mainly beef. I thought that was a really important piece of information, so ive posted it so you all know. Obviously its tempting knowing that the canned stuff is so well tolerated to think the same about the dried, and if its a different sort of stuff altogether, its better to stay away! They thecommended the James Wellbeloved on the Waltham hotline, but if youve read this thread youll know we have already had the dried and it hasnt done the trick.

Im going to see the vet again tomorrow, armed with my sample pot of poo because I think its gone far enough now to have it looked into. Ive done quite a bit of reading and it seems that its really common in puppies and can be associated with parasites as well as food changes. I would like to know how long after a worming does it take the gut to settle. I also want to talk to the vet to be reassured he will be OK on this Chappie as its not a puppy food. It may be the vet would want him to have a supplement or something. I am quite happy to cook real fish for him if its fish he needs, but I want the vet to tell me Im on the right track.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2009)

Yep, we have to stick to Chappie original for our Chessie, he can also tolerate JWB ocean white fish and rice. It might be worth you trying this when the tum has settled.
Good bit of info on the dried Chappie, will keep that in mind when advising in the future :thumbup1:


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

rona said:


> Yep, we have to stick to Chappie original for our Chessie, he can also tolerate JWB ocean white fish and rice. It might be worth you trying this when the tum has settled.
> Good bit of info on the dried Chappie, will keep that in mind when advising in the future :thumbup1:


Is the JWB Ocean white fish and rice dried or pouch? Will mention to vet as they seem to favour the JWB foods.

CHAPPIE ORIGINAL
ingredients fish and fish derivatives (including min 14% white fish) cereals (min 4%) meat and animal derivatives (including min 4% chicken) oils and fats, herbs, minerals
CHAPPIE CHICKEN AND RICE
ingredients fish and fish derivatives (including min 14% white fish) cereals (including min 4% rice) meat and animal derivatives (including min 4% chicken) oils and fats, herbs, minerals.

spot the difference???

Does the original have rice in I wonder? I think I will ask Waltham.

Analysis
% protein 6, oil 3, ash 1.5, fibre 0.45 moisture 74 
This is the same on both foods

I note that the protein is 6. Whereas on the dried foods it was 20 to 30%. I am going to compare this analysis with other wet foods which are puppy foods. Humour me! It might be useful for others too so I will post.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2009)

JWB dry ocean white fish and rice.
Good for you any information is always useful.
I think the 4% chicken is a minimum, so the chicken one may have far more than that


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

This info was useful too: (source http://www.ehow.com/way_5631375_canned-food-puppy-diet.html )
Dry food myth
5. Many puppies and dogs seem to prefer canned food, but kibble is less expensive. A major reason dry food is often recommended over canned food is the myth that kibble cleans teeth and canned food causes plaque build-up. According to a number of veterinarians, including Dr. Race Foster, DVM, of Doctors Foster & Smith, "the most important advantage of using dry foods ... is that the abrasive action of eating them is good for the dog's teeth and gums. Dogs that constantly eat any of the softened foods usually have more dental problems ranging from tartar and plaque buildup, to abscesses, tooth loss, and gum disease."

Some veterinarians still believe the myth that dry food promotes or at least helps maintain dental health, despite scientific studies and reports that refute the idea. According to studies on Dental Diseases conducted by Ellen I. Logan, "Typical dry dog and cat foods contribute little dental cleansing. As a tooth penetrates a kibble or treat the initial contact causes the food to shatter and crumble...providing little or no mechanical cleansing..." Logan also wrote, "In a large epidemiologic survey, dogs consuming dry food alone did not consistently demonstrate improved periodontal health when compared with dogs eating moist foods."

Dry food won't clean your puppy's teeth any more than eating crackers or pretzels will clean your teeth, nor is canned food any more a culprit than kibble in promoting tooth decay. It is the sugars and syrups added to most low-quality foods, whether dry or canned that are more likely to damage a pet's teeth.

References

* Feeding Puppies: What, When, How
* Dental Diseases. Ellen I. Logan: Chapter 28. Handbook of Small Animal Practice (Fifth Edition)
* Canned Food Storage

Resources

* The Pet Health Library: Dental Home Care. Wendy C. Brooks, DVM
* The Beef Over Pet food
* Born Free USA


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## vikki203 (Nov 1, 2009)

Hi Alison,

Keep us informed of how your doing. Im still in exactly the same position as you. Although Roxy's poohs are not completly solid they are much better than they have been but there is still a little blood. Im going to give it another 2 days or so and then take her back to the vet with a sample. Im hoping its nothing too serious - but she doesnt seem ill at all. Scary being a new mum isnt it!!!


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

PEDIGREE PUPPYÂ® Meaty Ground Dinner Complete Nutrition Chicken & Beef Dinner

Now I m not really into pedigree dog food, but I thought it was reasonable to compare the Chappie with the Pedigree puppy food to see how much protein etc there is in it. The protein is in the pedigree is 9% compared with the 7% in the chappie. Not a huge difference. So I looked at some premium puppy foods I picked up at PAH. I also used the figure from the analysis not the ingredients. (is this the best way?)

Natures Harvest Puppy from Berties
Protein 12% Oil 8% Fibre 1.6% Ash 3.5% Moisture 71%
Ingredients Fresh chicken, brown rice peas carrots ...

Nature Diet puppy junior with veg and rice
protein 12% Oil 9% fibre 1% Ash 2% Moisture 75%
ingredietns Chicken and lamb, brown rice veg ...

Natures menu Puppy chicken and lamb with rice
Protein 11% Oil 8% fibre 1% Ash 2.5% moisture 75%
Ingredients chicken lamb rice minerals various sugars

OK so the expensive ones have a higher % of protein and other add ons such as glucosamine in the natures harvest and various sugars (?!) in natures menu.

There are two lots of figures as I said the analysis, and the ingredients.
When the analysis says protein 12% 
the ingredients can read Fresh Chicken 75% or chicken and lamb 60% or chicken 46% lamb 24% 
Note these figures differ from dried foods ... because they arent dried!!

I used the analysis figure to try and determine how much protein a canned good puppy food should contain. It seems to contain between 9 and 12 % protein. Chappie has only 6% protein, so I will ask the vet if I need to supplement his protein intake with something else (eg an egg).


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

vikki203 said:


> Hi Alison,
> 
> Keep us informed of how your doing. Im still in exactly the same position as you. Although Roxy's poohs are not completly solid they are much better than they have been but there is still a little blood. Im going to give it another 2 days or so and then take her back to the vet with a sample. Im hoping its nothing too serious - but she doesnt seem ill at all. Scary being a new mum isnt it!!!


Hello again Roxy's mum. What food is she on? (Because Im obviously obsessed, see posts!). :confused5:
This is how I deal with stuff though, get as much information as possible ............ then confuse myself!!:mad2:


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## vikki203 (Nov 1, 2009)

Still on chappie - 2 days now.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

The Chappie club!! They should really make a puppy food.

Had a little laugh at Hedley today he cocked his leg for the first time! He usually just squats and I was expecting him to keep doing that for a good while longer!


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## vikki203 (Nov 1, 2009)

hey i have just been to the vets with Roxy as was still a bit concerned about the amount of blood she was passing but the vet seems happy with her, said to keep the chappie going for at least 2-3 weeks and if the bleeding hasnt stopped he will do more tests. He said she was a healthy happy pup and if there was real cause for concern she would seem more ill.

He also said chappie was a great food and he dog had it from 8 weeks and is still on it... so if a vet will use it with his dog i figure it must be okay.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Good. Im going tomorrow. Its worrying me to death.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

According to the other thread "how much protein should my dog have?" and the formula for making the wet food equivalent to the dry, Chappie is 23% protein which is lower than a puppy food, but as Rona has pointed out previously, he wouldnt be absorbing much of the higher protein food as the diarrhoea was making it go through so fast. He is STILL gaining weight well though, on the Chappie. Had him on the kitchen scales again!


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> According to the other thread "how much protein should my dog have?" and the formula for making the wet food equivalent to the dry, Chappie is 23% protein which is lower than a puppy food, but as Rona has pointed out previously, he wouldnt be absorbing much of the higher protein food as the diarrhoea was making it go through so fast. He is STILL gaining weight well though, on the Chappie. Had him on the kitchen scales again!


With a small breed I wouldn't be too concerned


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks Rona, its not as if he is a working dog is it? He is supposed to be reducing my stress!


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> Thanks Rona, its not as if he is a working dog is it? He is supposed to be reducing my stress!


I'm a bit worried that you will change from Chappie after reading the other thread 
Be it on your own head if you do :hand:


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

I will do nothing until I speak to the vet, also I am too scared to try anything else. I agree he needs some time to let his gut settle. I have thought about letting him have a raw bone instead of rawhide chews, because if he doesnt have these he just chews anything, eg Barbies leg, a book, a pen ... If it is within reach he will get it. I have read so much conflicting advice about bones though that I wont be risking it. I know that people are fond of stating that a vet knows nowt about nutrition, but they know a lot more about anatomy and physiology than we do, and they see a lot more sick animals than we do, so I do trust them.


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

rona said:


> I'm a bit worried that you will change from Chappie after reading the other thread
> Be it on your own head if you do :hand:


Indeed. But there are more variables than Chappie having read this thread too. For example, was the Panacur administered when you got back from the vets, i.e. the day before the motions started to improve?

As I said it's up to you, but Chappie is far from a decent dog food and I've yet to see a puppy of ANY breed develop colitis due to being fed raw food. It's always the commercially fed dogs, and lots of them... 

BTW Alyson you said: "We are going back to the vets on Thursday, but if anyone has found a food that causes constipation, please tell us!!!"

Raw meaty bones will certainly firm up his poo. Dogs fed raw meaty bones pass very small, rounded pellets consisting of nothing more than powdered bone. They are dry, virtually odourless, and most certainly never brown, "full" or sloppy. By all means wait for veterinary advice, but as I said you haven't much to lose and I'm pretty sure that a good RMB would improve this situation no end. Good luck either way.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Indeed. But there are more variables than Chappie having read this thread too. For example, was the Panacur administered when you got back from the vets, i.e. the day before the motions started to improve?
> 
> As I said it's up to you, but Chappie is far from a decent dog food and I've yet to see a puppy of ANY breed develop colitis due to being fed raw food. It's always the commercially fed dogs, and lots of them...
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but my dog has a very hardy constitution and a raw bone can upset his stomach as can chicken


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

rona said:


> I'm sorry but my dog has a very hardy constitution and a raw bone can upset his stomach as can chicken


No need to apologise. I noticed in your previous posts that you refer to 'marrow bones', which aren't recommended as part of a raw diet anyway. Even in the wild wolves will ignore the large weight bearing bones of their ungulate prey (i.e. they avoid marrow bones).

Have you tried more edible and appropriate meaty bones like a breast of lamb? When you say chicken, do you mean raw or cooked? Some dogs are averse to certain foods, but when fed raw and on the bone it's unusual.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks for all your advice, but Im really confused, so Im going to take the dog out put him to bed and then go myself. I understand that its easy to get all evangelical about raw diet if its worked for you, as when I finally find the perfect diet I will want to tell everyone about it. Thing is, they are all different aren't they? You cant guarantee that feeding a breast of lamb or a raw fish to Hedley will not make him worse rather than better. If his gut is just calming down, a bit of bone could easily puncture an inflamed gut.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't believe that I have mentioned bones at all 
My dog has had both marrow bones and lamb bones raw and both have had the same affect, he is ok with one day of raw but any more than that and he gets colitis.
I must admit that he has only had cooked chicken, but again he is ok for one day.
He is 8 now and has only had an upset tum about 6 times, all but one brought on by food

Just found where I mentioned marrow bones


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

Sadly there is no perfect diet... I have two dogs with serious gastric conditions, EPI, IBD etc... my bitch I tried on raw and poo'd nothing but blood at every attempt, she does exceptionally well on JWB duck and RIce now, bizarrely she can't cope with normal cooked rice though!!

My dogon the other hand, on kibble alone, was never firm, he's now on a mix of raw and kibble, and never been better. 

It's horses for courses, you need to find what's best for your particular dog, and not feel pressured into going down a path because others say it's "the best"...


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2009)

kazschow said:


> Sadly there is no perfect diet... I have two dogs with serious gastric conditions, EPI, IBD etc... my bitch I tried on raw and poo'd nothing but blood at every attempt, she does exceptionally well on JWB duck and RIce now, bizarrely she can't cope with normal cooked rice though!!
> 
> My dogon the other hand, on kibble alone, was never firm, he's now on a mix of raw and kibble, and never been better.
> 
> It's horses for courses, you need to find what's best for your particular dog, and not feel pressured into going down a path because others say it's "the best"...


Good post :thumbup1:


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## Rainmaker (Nov 15, 2009)

I've never wanted to pressurise anyone, and indeed have made a point of saying whatever works for you... all the best whichever you choose... etc. The only point I was making is that wolves and dogs have evolved for thousands and thousands of years to eat whole raw carcasses and meaty bones. NOT "grain byproducts, cereal derivatives, animal byproducts, BHA, BHT"... 

Commercial "junk food" (vets' definition not mine) has only been around for about 150 years. Compounded damage from feeding commercial diets for years could well mean that the body reacts violently when taken away from it, but that doesn't mean the "real" food is to blame. 

When people wish to feed commercial foods, I say fair play and advise a decent one (Orijen, Applaws, etc). I never try to become evangelical and apologise if it comes over that way. I merely would never want anyone to reach a decision without all the facts, or worse to spout misinformation (NOT referring to this thread!!) for others to take as gospel when the scientific literature clearly refutes their assertions. 

I only offered the raw food possibility as there's a very good chance this pup could benefit from it. I certainly never intend to twist any arms!  It's your dog and if you're happy with Chappie go for it! But at least I know I offered my advice and you made your choice with an alternative option. 

With all that said, once again all the best and I hope your dog improves soon. Sounds like he's healthy otherwise and that's a good thing - so enjoy your puppy and goodnight.


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## WaveRider (Sep 8, 2009)

My puppy has had blood in stools and this correlates with the times when she has been given pig ears as a treat. She has other treats such as springbok,elk, kangaroo meat that don't appear to cause the same bodily reaction. 

Looks like I will be eliminating pig ears(pork) from her food.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> I note that the protein is 6. Whereas on the dried foods it was 20 to 30%. I am going to compare this analysis with other wet foods which are puppy foods. Humour me! It might be useful for others too so I will post.


You can't compare protein as a percentage between wet and dry food, as the moisture content throws all the percentages out.

A food that I tried that caused constipation was Burgess sensitive. I won a bag of it, and my dog was straining to pass bullets!


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

The vet (who relieved me of 60 quid) had a good look at Hedley today and also examined his poo (I took in a full one in newspaper!!). She took a sample to send off for the labs for parasites and bacteriology, campylobacter and something else, explained how long it took to grow the cultures etc and said she would phone me with the results. As far as the feeding was concerned, she weighed him, noted his weight gain and said continue with the Chappie for the time being and supplement his diet with some vitamins and minerals. She said just go to any pet shop and get a supplement. So I am going to find something nice and natural online. I mentioned the protein content of Chappie as it is an adult food and she said she wasnt concerned about that. Also I have to cut out chews and treats, but he hadnt been having any treats anyway. She said that sometimes it is the rawhide chews that cause this, I discussed his need for chewing and mentioned bones, she said not to give him bones nor rawhide, but to try and get him to use a toy rather than a chew.

I will be continuing as she advised for a while, but would eventually like to try a better quality food.


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

I've gone through all this with my pair for the last couple of months, turned out it was e coli and clostridium perfringens they both had  Still on anti biotics 2 months later, it's a right bugger to get under control!!!


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2009)

Always good to get a sample tested, then you know what you are dealing with.
Hopefully it will be just a case of finding the right food 
What is his poo like today?


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Dark brown and softly formed. He keeps scavenging though  When we are out in the garden he starts digging, and then chewing. I cant think what he finds to eat on our lawn.


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## argee (Nov 18, 2009)

I read somewhere that slugs were exreemly dangerous to dogs. I think there is some parasite in the slime the slugs leave behind. Just Google it to see what other sites say.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> Dark brown and softly formed. He keeps scavenging though  When we are out in the garden he starts digging, and then chewing. I cant think what he finds to eat on our lawn.


The chewing is possibly grass roots. This is Arnies fav, along with fushias begonias and the buddlia.  But when hes been digging in the grass I've notice that he chews/eats the grass roots. Been told by someone that short grass/roots is like a salad for them not sure about it but its not harmed him yet.  As far as getting something for your dog to chew on have you tried Nylabones from Pets at Home tho dare say others sell it.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

It is the grass roots, thats what I thought it was before! I wondered if he was looking for the tastiest bit of the grass. Thanks for that.

He has attempted to chew the cut down wood of the fuchsia bush but I kept moving him on.

He has a nylabone and to be honest he can take it or leave it.


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2009)

argee said:


> I read somewhere that slugs were exreemly dangerous to dogs. I think there is some parasite in the slime the slugs leave behind. Just Google it to see what other sites say.


Slugs can infect your dog with lung/heart worm


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Hope he isnt on the slugs then!!! I tried to cover where he was digging with a flower pot but he just found another patch.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> Hope he isnt on the slugs then!!! I tried to cover where he was digging with a flower pot but he just found another patch.


Oh yes been there, done that. Little **** just digs around it.  we used to have a garden, now with two of em we have an imitation of the somme.


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> Hope he isnt on the slugs then!!! I tried to cover where he was digging with a flower pot but he just found another patch.


OH NO
I've given you something else to worry about


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> It is the grass roots, thats what I thought it was before! I wondered if he was looking for the tastiest bit of the grass. Thanks for that.
> 
> He has attempted to chew the cut down wood of the fuchsia bush but I kept moving him on.
> 
> He has a nylabone and to be honest he can take it or leave it.


Hey dont knock the pruning of the fushia, Arnie made a beeline for it when he was big enough to manage the steps to the garden and pruned it for us, along with the herbs that no longer exisit  but the fushia has come back beautifully this year.  Try picking the nylabone up and just letting him have it now and then. The boys arent interested in things that they can get hold of when they want them, but something that they hunt for or is only around now and then, well thats a different matter.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

He has had another little go at the nylabone tonight as it was stuffed down the side of my armchair! I do rotate his toys, take some of them up and put them in a box and only let him have so many. Tonight, what's keeping him occupied is the kids table. They have a little Ikea table they use for snacks etc. Its been cleared and wiped clean, but there is something interesting on it and and he has to keep licking it.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Sometimes you just need to be a dog to understand.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Just found out that the Fish 4 Dogs Sea Jerky twists suit Hedley. These are just pure cod skin dried to make a chew. He had one yesterday and is as firm as ever! 

In fact the good news is, no poo overnight on the newspaper!!

Fish obviously suits him as its a large component of Chappie.:thumbup1:


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## vikki203 (Nov 1, 2009)

Hey, where did you get this from??? Im trying to find a chew for roxy!!


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Ebay, I think the seller is called swallowfoods or something to do with swallow (bird that is). Just do an ebay search for fish 4 dogs. They are the sea jerky twists.

Had a setback today. Tidying up in the kitchen trying to make room and decided to shift some of the dried foods to the back of the cupboard to make way for the tins of chappie. Got distracted by baby, next thing I know Hedley has his head in a bag of dry food and is going for it like crazy. He ate quite a bit because he wouldnt have his Chappie at teatime. This evening, the runs are back. No blood so far but we sometimes see that first thing or overnight. I also heard OH shouting at one of the kids "no, dont give him that" dont know if he had a titbit, OH said it was nothing, but he sticks up for the kids! :mad2:


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> Had a setback today. Tidying up in the kitchen trying to make room and decided to shift some of the dried foods to the back of the cupboard to make way for the tins of chappie. Got distracted by baby, next thing I know Hedley has his head in a bag of dry food and is going for it like crazy. He ate quite a bit because he wouldnt have his Chappie at teatime. This evening, the runs are back. No blood so far but we sometimes see that first thing or overnight. I also heard OH shouting at one of the kids "no, dont give him that" dont know if he had a titbit, OH said it was nothing, but he sticks up for the kids! :mad2:


Your OH will have to understand that if this dog is going to get better, it will be because you know what he's eaten and what effect it has. It's not a matter of guilt but of being honest so you can all see what effect various foods have. There's more important stuff here than sticking up for the kids.
The dried food clearly doesn't suit this dog. Take what's left to your local rescue or put it in the bin were your pup is safe from it.


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2009)

Well just proves it is the food and not something more sinister


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Back to normal today. Well Burrowzig, if I thought you could get through to my other half I would let you give him a talking to! I have been trying for 30 years and he still hears what he wants and does what he wants. He is a man you see. He isnt an awful lot of use in many practical areas. I could have another rant about the chicken wire on the fence that he only put on one side, and Hedley got through to our neighbours twice today. You see, doing these things isnt as attractive as downloading itunes or watching football on telly.


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