# Shar pei puppies eyes tacked??



## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

I've just seen an ad for some shar pei puppies and it states that their eyes are tacked, is this a normal thing for shar pei pups. I thought I tacking was for dogs with entropian?? and you weren't meant to breed dogs with entropian? surely having to tack eyes this early is a bad thing?


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Apollo2012 said:


> I've just seen an ad for some shar pei puppies and it states that their eyes are tacked, is this a normal thing for shar pei pups. I thought I tacking was for dogs with entropian?? and you weren't meant to breed dogs with entropian? surely having to tack eyes this early is a bad thing?


Because of the conformation the lids can roll inwards causing rubbing on the eye and discharge. it normally becomes apparent when the pups open their eyes that there is a problem. If it happens then eye tacking is used as a temporary measure to stop the lids rolling inwards and causing it. If there is any infection then that has to be dealt with too, its literally stitches that are put in to stop it. Sometimes once the pup has grown into the loose and wrinkled skin they are only needed temporarily although the stitches may need replacing a few times. For others though where the problem doesn't right itself with age and growth then they will need the full surgery for entropian. That though cant be done until I think they are about 6 months plus.

As far as I know there is no guarantee that the tacking may be enough and the problem will resolve and many do need to go on and have the full surgery.
I would imagine too, for pups who have had to have their eyes already tacked at a couple of weeks old or so old soon after they have opened and its apparent they have a problem, its questionable if insurance would cover it too, I would think more likely not.


----------



## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Because of the conformation the lids can roll inwards causing rubbing on the eye and discharge. it normally becomes apparent when the pups open their eyes that there is a problem. If it happens then eye tacking is used as a temporary measure to stop the lids rolling inwards and causing it. If there is any infection then that has to be dealt with too, its literally stitches that are put in to stop it. Sometimes once the pup has grown into the loose and wrinkled skin they are only needed temporarily although the stitches may need replacing a few times. For others though where the problem doesn't right itself with age and growth then they will need the full surgery for entropian. That though cant be done until I think they are about 6 months plus.
> 
> As far as I know there is no guarantee that the tacking may be enough and the problem will resolve and many do need to go on and have the full surgery.
> I would imagine too, for pups who have had to have their eyes already tacked at a couple of weeks old or so old soon after they have opened and its apparent they have a problem, its questionable if insurance would cover it too, I would think more likely not.


Thank you for explaining. yes that was my thought the pups are being sold for a lot already (more than I've seen shar pei pups selling for before anyway) and then I was thinking that surely insurance wouldn't cover any surgery or eye issues if the pups have already had them tacked, so that would work out incredibly expensive for a new owner, from what i can see in the pictures of the pups it's only two out of the litter with their eyes tacked and they are the only two still for sale


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Apollo2012 said:


> Thank you for explaining. yes that was my thought the pups are being sold for a lot already (more than I've seen shar pei pups selling for before anyway) and then I was thinking that surely insurance wouldn't cover any surgery or eye issues if the pups have already had them tacked, so that would work out incredibly expensive for a new owner, from what i can see in the pictures of the pups it's only two out of the litter with their eyes tacked and they are the only two still for sale


There are so many health problems in the Shar Pei, I think Im right in saying that not all insurance companies will even cover them and if they do, the premiums are usually huge. Any one buying them its vital that you do your research even more then most and go to a good breeder.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Because of the conformation the lids can roll inwards causing rubbing on the eye and discharge. it normally becomes apparent when the pups open their eyes that there is a problem. If it happens then eye tacking is used as a temporary measure to stop the lids rolling inwards and causing it. If there is any infection then that has to be dealt with too, its literally stitches that are put in to stop it. Sometimes once the pup has grown into the loose and wrinkled skin they are only needed temporarily although the stitches may need replacing a few times. For others though where the problem doesn't right itself with age and growth then they will need the full surgery for entropian. That though cant be done until I think they are about 6 months plus.
> 
> As far as I know there is no guarantee that the tacking may be enough and the problem will resolve and many do need to go on and have the full surgery.
> I would imagine too, for pups who have had to have their eyes already tacked at a couple of weeks old or so old soon after they have opened and its apparent they have a problem, its questionable if insurance would cover it too, I would think more likely not.


With Shar-Pei entropion is something you can't health test for as it can skip several generations before it appears again. Tacking is fairly common in puppies a few weeks old and as you say its done to lift the weight of the (wrinkled) skin from pressing on the eyelid and causing damage to the cornea. Georgina was the only one out of 6 puppies who needed to have her her eyes tacked at 3 weeks old something which a reputable breeder will always tell you has been done. In her case though it didn't solve the problem and from the age of 4 to 9 months she needed 3 further tackings, each time removing a sliver of skin from her forehead. And at 12 months old because she'd suffered scratches on her cornea she had the full entropion surgery which is the earliest age a good vet will perform the operation because until then the dog's skull is still growing into its skin.

As far as I know because it is a random gene there's no restriction on breeding a Pei whose eyes have been tacked, not that I had any intention of breeding Georgina. There are far worse genetic disorders such as FSF where an affected dog should be removed from the breeding programme. Here in Hungary once a dog has been diagnosed with FSF, every vet in the country and the relevant government department are notified and the breeder is ordered to remove the parents from the breeding pool.


----------



## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Magyarmum said:


> With Shar-Pei entropion is something you can't health test for as it can skip several generations before it appears again. Tacking is fairly common in puppies a few weeks old and as you say its done to lift the weight of the (wrinkled) skin from pressing on the eyelid and causing damage to the cornea. Georgina was the only one out of 6 puppies who needed to have her her eyes tacked at 3 weeks old something which a reputable breeder will always tell you has been done. In her case though it didn't solve the problem and from the age of 4 to 9 months she needed 3 further tackings, each time removing a sliver of skin from her forehead. And at 12 months old because she'd suffered scratches on her cornea she had the full entropion surgery which is the earliest age a good vet will perform the operation because until then the dog's skull is still growing into its skin.
> 
> As far as I know because it is a random gene there's no restriction on breeding a Pei whose eyes have been tacked, not that I had any intention of breeding Georgina. There are far worse genetic disorders such as FSF where an affected dog should be removed from the breeding programme. Here in Hungary once a dog has been diagnosed with FSF, every vet in the country and the relevant government department are notified and the breeder is ordered to remove the parents from the breeding pool.


ah thank you I've never seen pei puppies with tacked eyes before that's why I asked. but am I right in thinking if peis were selectively bred for less extra skin and wrinkles they are less likely to have entropian? because I know they weren't originally so exaggerated with the extra skin and wrinkles the same as some other breeds people liked the more exaggerated look so bred for it.


----------



## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

Apollo2012 said:


> am I right in thinking if peis were selectively bred for less extra skin and wrinkles they are less likely to have entropian?


Yes, the excess of wrinkles around the eyes does make them much more prone to entropion.

The traditional "bone mouth" type peis are much less exaggerated and it's a real shame we don't see more over here.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Apollo2012 said:


> ah thank you I've never seen pei puppies with tacked eyes before that's why I asked. but am I right in thinking if peis were selectively bred for less extra skin and wrinkles they are less likely to have entropian? because I know they weren't originally so exaggerated with the extra skin and wrinkles the same as some other breeds people liked the more exaggerated look so bred for it.


We get cases of entropia in our breed most reputable breeders will not breed from dogs who have it, nor will they carry out a repeat mating or in most cases breed from bitch or stud the dog again. 

It's sad so many breeds get dragged through the mud for their looks and health and little is ever said about the huge and sometimes fatal health issues the Shar-pie breed has...


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Apollo2012 said:


> ah thank you I've never seen pei puppies with tacked eyes before that's why I asked. but am I right in thinking if peis were selectively bred for less extra skin and wrinkles they are less likely to have entropian? because I know they weren't originally so exaggerated with the extra skin and wrinkles the same as some other breeds people liked the more exaggerated look so bred for it.


Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you. In Pei the number of wrinkles and skin folds they have corresponds to the amount of hyaluronic acid they produce which causes a bulid up of mucin ( a gel like substance) in the body, therefore more mucin = more wrinkles and skin folds. It's also been found that the heavier and more wrinkled a Pei is the more likely they are to suffer from FSF and Amyloidosis .Its estimated that 35% of Pei will sometime in their life develop either or both of these diseases, although the figure quoted is almost entirely based on US statistics of the "Meat Mouth" or "Western Pei" not the "Traditional Pei" or "Bone Mouth" which only has a few wrinkles on its forehead and is much healthier.

In the 70's Pei were considered one of the rarest breeds in the world, until some where imported to the States when in the 90's they became very fashionable and breeders began to breed dogs with heavier and heavier wrinkles which was the main cause of all the health problems Pei suffer today. Last week on the Pedigree Dogs Exposed blog there was an article about an unnamed UK breeder with a litter of puppies for sale, some of whom had had their eyes tacked. What appalled me was the puppies were so heavily wrinkled they looked grotesque, and I personally wouldn't have bought one even if they'd paid me to! Even though a lot of research has been done over the past 10/15 years due to its being such a complex genetic defect, to date there is no health test for FSF or related diseases. As a prospective owner all you can do is to research the pedigree thoroughly ... at least 5 generations back, and chose a reputable breeder who breeds Pei with as few wrinkles as possible. Some of the best Pei breeder IMO are in Central and Eastern Europe in countries like Russia and Hungary. Georgina comes from a long line of Hungarian, Russian and Serbian dogs.

This is her at 9 weeks old and you can see she's not got many wrinkles









Georgina at 6 months old, the day after her second tacking.









At 18 months. How a Pei should look!


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Sled dog hotel said:


> There are so many health problems in the Shar Pei, I think Im right in saying that not all insurance companies will even cover them and if they do, the premiums are usually huge. Any one buying them its vital that you do your research even more then most and go to a good breeder.


I have no idea what health insurance would cost in the UK. Neither of my dogs are insured. We're fortunate in Hungary vet treatment is extremely reasonable. For her 3 tackings plus major entropion surgery and spaying, including antibiotics, eye drops etc and weekly checkups the total bill came to just under £350


----------



## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Finding a decent pei breeder is bloody hard work!
I hate tacking yet they seem to find a way to make it sounds like its amazing so not to worry.... 'Tacked by the best shar-pei vet' etc... it makes me really angry that they then still use the same dam/sire to carry on breeding to produce more pups that need tacking and end up with on going issues! It shouldn't be allowed IMO.
I get really angry reading some ads lol I let rip on FB the other day when seeing 'rare tri coloured shar-peis £2000 KC registered' of course they had tacked eyes too  
It's such a minefield to find a 'decent' breeder with great pups.


----------



## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Magyarmum said:


> Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you. In Pei the number of wrinkles and skin folds they have corresponds to the amount of hyaluronic acid they produce which causes a bulid up of mucin ( a gel like substance) in the body, therefore more mucin = more wrinkles and skin folds. It's also been found that the heavier and more wrinkled a Pei is the more likely they are to suffer from FSF and Amyloidosis .Its estimated that 35% of Pei will sometime in their life develop either or both of these diseases, although the figure quoted is almost entirely based on US statistics of the "Meat Mouth" or "Western Pei" not the "Traditional Pei" or "Bone Mouth" which only has a few wrinkles on its forehead and is much healthier.
> 
> In the 70's Pei were considered one of the rarest breeds in the world, until some where imported to the States when in the 90's they became very fashionable and breeders began to breed dogs with heavier and heavier wrinkles which was the main cause of all the health problems Pei suffer today. Last week on the Pedigree Dogs Exposed blog there was an article about an unnamed UK breeder with a litter of puppies for sale, some of whom had had their eyes tacked. What appalled me was the puppies were so heavily wrinkled they looked grotesque, and I personally wouldn't have bought one even if they'd paid me to! Even though a lot of research has been done over the past 10/15 years due to its being such a complex genetic defect, to date there is no health test for FSF or related diseases. As a prospective owner all you can do is to research the pedigree thoroughly ... at least 5 generations back, and chose a reputable breeder who breeds Pei with as few wrinkles as possible. Some of the best Pei breeder IMO are in Central and Eastern Europe in countries like Russia and Hungary. Georgina comes from a long line of Hungarian, Russian and Serbian dogs.
> 
> ...


Thank for the info, your girl looks very fluffy for a pei are there different coats I always thought they were very short coated. I don't think its just the excess skin folds that are a problem but the extra skin (i know they were bred to have excess skin around the neck but they seem the have extra excess skin now) as well particularly around the head and neck and the weight from that especially when their pups I would think is what causes most of their eye problems. I love shar peis but because of the health problems I would never consider owning one


----------



## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Apollo2012 said:


> Thank for the info, your girl looks very fluffy for a pei are there different coats I always thought they were very short coated. I don't think its just the excess skin folds that are a problem but the extra skin (i know they were bred to have excess skin around the neck but they seem the have extra excess skin now) as well particularly around the head and neck and the weight from that especially when their pups I would think is what causes most of their eye problems. I love shar peis but because of the health problems I would never consider owning one


With regards to Coat this is taken from KC UK standard
'' Extremely harsh coat straight and off-standing on the body but flatter on the limbs. No undercoat. Length varies from short and bristly, under half an inch (1.25cm) or longer and thicker, between half an inch (1.25cm) and one inch (2.5cm), but still off-standing and harsh to the touch. N.B: no particular coat length within the accepted length should be preferred above the other. Never trimmed. ''

The big fluffy ones - bear coat - often slammed with a higher price are undesirable  although they are gorgeous!

Full info here - http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/standard.aspx?id=4178


----------



## miljar (Jan 27, 2012)

Magyarmum said:


> hyaluronic acid


 A bit off the original post, but isn't that the stuff they are pushing in some cosmetic advert lately?


----------



## BamBam-Pebbles (May 17, 2017)

*I'm* wondering if anyone could give me some advice. I've got 2 Shar Peis both with entropian. My eldest got the surgery and his eyes are great, my youngest had her eyes tacked yesterday and I'm so worried about her.

Even though it's only been a day around her stitches are turning black and a little gunky (best work I could find to describe it) she's also not eating or drinking on her own, I think it's because of the cone as she's more than happy to bottle feed water and eat from my hands. One of her eyes looks like it's leaking green gunk too. She does have a lot of ulcers on her eyes so maybe that's why, but honestly the only thing crossing my mind is infection.

The vet I went to was 30 miles away, as the breeder reccomended it due to all the vets in my area wanting to perform surgery on her even though she's below the reccomended age. All the vets have said is to bring her in, but obviously Its not that easy, is there any advice? Should I see how she is over the next few days or take her into my local vet? TIA xx


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

BamBam-Pebbles said:


> *I'm* wondering if anyone could give me some advice. I've got 2 Shar Peis both with entropian. My eldest got the surgery and his eyes are great, my youngest had her eyes tacked yesterday and I'm so worried about her.
> 
> Even though it's only been a day around her stitches are turning black and a little gunky (best work I could find to describe it) she's also not eating or drinking on her own, I think it's because of the cone as she's more than happy to bottle feed water and eat from my hands. One of her eyes looks like it's leaking green gunk too. She does have a lot of ulcers on her eyes so maybe that's why, but honestly the only thing crossing my mind is infection.
> 
> The vet I went to was 30 miles away, as the breeder reccomended it due to all the vets in my area wanting to perform surgery on her even though she's below the reccomended age. All the vets have said is to bring her in, but obviously Its not that easy, is there any advice? Should I see how she is over the next few days or take her into my local vet? TIA xx


Yellow or green thickened discharge is usually a sign of infection, so from your description and how she is generally I would suspect the eyes are infected too. If the skin is turning black around the stitches again I would be concerned aswell. Ulcerated eyes are yet another big concern, Have they given you treatment for the ulcers? If they haven't they should have. Ulcers can be very painful, although it might be the cone, if she is in pain and discomfort again that could be why she isn't eating. If you cant get to the vets who did it as its too far away, I would at least get a local vet to check them out, she does need to be seen quickly and appropriate treatment asap.


----------

