# Half brother sister mating



## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

On my hunt for a breeder, I have recently come across a planned mating between a half brother and half sister (both dogs have the same sire).

My instinct is to avoid like the plague. Am I right? Just after some opinions to further my understanding 

A lot of the other planned litters I've looked at have similar matings in their lines, just some are one or two generations back, some 3 or 4, some 8 generations etc.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

No, I wouldn´t entertain it either. There are lots of factors that may mean that the pups will be fine, however, personally, I would walk away from any breeder that practices this. What breed are you looking at?


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

I would stay away from a breeder that thinks its ok to do a mating like that


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Stay away.

What breed is it?


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks, that's what I thought 

Was just wondering if I was wrong to outright dismiss it but such a close mating does go against my principles!

The breed is Staffordshire Bull Terrier.


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

My Teagan is from a half brother and sister mating, I didn't realise until I got her. I love her dearly and she's done well in agility (won me out starters agility and was grade 4), but I wouldn't get 1 again from a mating so closely related.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Isn't it awful that the secretary of the SBT club UK has halted all her breeding programmes due to the Staffie crisis yet people are willing to continue, even with matings like this?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The Kennel Club view:

Q Do you accept half brother and sister matings?
A. At present the only close matings we do not accept are:

Father and Daughter 
Mother and Son 
Brother and Sister 

We therefore would accept half brother and sister matings, although it is always advisable to contact the Breed Club for breeding advice and also check the current breeding regulations with ourselves prior to mating.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I think to get away with it you would need to know your lines inside and out and have kept track of all siblings and progeny. Making full use of DNA tests etc.

For someone doing this so frequently... I can't really see it being "safe" to do so often tbh!


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Such line breeding is practised, although more popular in the states and the rest of Europe I believe. Line breeding is used by reputable breeders to set a type of excellent quality animals when they know their pedigree, when done incorrectly you can double-up and concentrate faults and hereditary issues.

It is not something I would entertain personally, but I can see the reasons they give for it.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Isn't it awful that the secretary of the SBT club UK has halted all her breeding programmes due to the Staffie crisis yet people are willing to continue, even with matings like this?


Helen Reaney? She only breeds when she wants to keep one back as do most of the breeders I've been looking at and has nothing planned for this year although maybe mating one of her bitches at the start of next year.

I think it's especially important for good breeders continue to breed because of the Staffy crisis. As you or maybe it was someone else said on another thread, there are so many Staffies being badly bad, it's important for the future of the breed that knowledgable people continue to breed good examples for health, temperament and to the breed standard IMO which is why I've chosen to go to a breeder for my next dog and not rescue like I have with my other dogs.

The person who's mating the half brother and sister seemed to tick all the right boxes, has owned and showed for over 30 years, bred less than 5 litters in that time and only when he wanted to keep one back, his dogs are all health tested clear etc. which is why I was surprised when I was told who the sire was going to be and why I posted this thread incase there was something I'm missing. Clearly not and he should've chosen a different sire IMO, I won't be asking to go on the waiting list.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Shrap said:


> I think to get away with it you would need to know your lines inside and out and have kept track of all siblings and progeny. Making full use of DNA tests etc.
> 
> For someone doing this so frequently... I can't really see it being "safe" to do so often tbh!


Yes - and where I've seen it (rarely) - you often find that the "other parent" on both sides is a complete outcross.

it's when you start looking at the statistics side of it the greatest surprises come in, because often whilst these matings look tight on paper because of a shared parent, statistically, I've also seen COI's lower than 2nd/3rd and 3rd/4th generation linebreeding.

As Shrap says, you need to know your lines inside and out - seldom I say this - but definitely one to be left to the experts

Have to agree with other comments - what on earth is the need to do it in this particular breed? it's not as if there is a shortage of well-bred dogs amongst all the difficulties the breed is facing

With the recent incident in Swindon - no doubt the Staffy crisis has the potential to get even worse


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

As others have said it would depend on the actual pedigrees, but (had i not had my half brother sister dogs through the same sire neutered), then it would have been perfectly acceptable to breed them with each other with the pups pedigree being inside the limit set for KC registration still.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

IT might be acceptable on paper but to me, it just seems a bit wrong. If it was humans we would be horrified....
Or is that cos we are conditioned its wrong, and maybe we should let half brothers and sisters date if its not that dodgy

Just when you think the staffie rescue crisis can't get worse it does. We went to Birmingham Dogs Home this week - 90% of the dogs were staffies and crosses, it amazes me the amount of people (i.e. BYB etc) who think that they are not addin to the problem and their dogs will somehow be exempt from this situation.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

You only have to look in the local paper to see how many badly bred Staffies and staffy crosses there are  thing is though, most of those dogs don't even meet the breed standard and god knows what dogs they've been bred from, they could be father daughter matings for all the 'breeders' know :nonod: 

I really wish there were tougher laws on breeding. And that so many people didn't see a dog as something disposable


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## LoveDogs12 (Jun 7, 2012)

The Kennel Club, is that in another country than US?

Because I know breeders who inbreed. Like another poster says, the results of an inbreed litter bring out the worst and best in a breeding program. 

I also know of a reputable breeder who just bred a grandfather to his granddaughter and got some fabolous looking puppies or at least show potential. But that's linebreeding.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

LoveDogs12 said:


> The Kennel Club, is that in another country than US?


Yes, it's UK Kennel Club that does not allow close matings.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I`d also look back at previous generations. A breeder who does this may well have been doing it for a while.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

LoveDogs12 said:


> . . . Because I know breeders who inbreed. Like another poster says, the results of an inbreed litter bring out the worst and best in a breeding program.. . .


Breeders have to be careful to also realize that what might work for their breeding program - short term - might create risk in the breed - long term. As a breeder, involved in a breed, their responsibility is to both the short and long term welfare of their breed.

Inbreeding, no matter what the breeder's knowledge is of the pedigree and animals behind . . . heightens the risk of doubling up on detrimental alleles that would otherwise be retained at an infinitely small risk rate in a population of animals.

That is because the testing that we can do, or the observations we can make on the few gens we can see, cannot reflect the myriad of risk alleles that any dog carries; some that require others to combine with for a threshold polygenetic affect; some that are late onset; some that are incompletely penetrant.

I can give an example of a reputable, caring and knowledgeable (and open and honest) breeder that has now found out (since DNA testing) that their line of dogs has carried a simple recessive allele for an incompletely penetrant condition for SEVEN generations - undetected. Anywhere along that line an inbreeding or linebreeding could have caused serious suffering in a pup. They were lucky as DNA testing just became available for this condition and now they know to continue to test for it.

MOST(there are thousands) conditions can't be tested for.

_Recent data from the 1,000 genomes project revealed that humans carry, on average, between 250 and 300 recessive mutations and at least 50 mutations previously associated with inherited disorders, and it seems reasonable to assume the average dog will carry the same burden of disease-associated variants (Durbin et al. 2010). Expecting breeding dogs to be clear of all risk alleles, therefore, is unrealistic and will severely jeopardise breed diversity._​
source: http://www.springerlink.com/content/g0434425nv0314g0/fulltext.pdf?MUD=MP

Any breeder that looks to linebreed or inbreed needs to be fully aware of the fact that it increases risks of fixing detrimental alleles, and the results of that decision can play out in a breed waiting 10 or even 20 generations down the line before it begins to show up. The results in front of them might LOOK great, but you cannot SEE what has happened with the genes and what can be passed on for later generations to deal with. Where the population is large enough to choose a less related dog (still suitable), that will always be a safer gamble (and it is all a gamble).

CC


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## LoveDogs12 (Jun 7, 2012)

comfortcreature said:


> Breeders have to be careful to also realize that what might work for their breeding program - short term - might create risk in the breed - long term. As a breeder, involved in a breed, their responsibility is to both the short and long term welfare of their breed.
> 
> Inbreeding, no matter what the breeder's knowledge is of the pedigree and animals behind . . . heightens the risk of doubling up on detrimental alleles that would otherwise be retained at an infinitely small risk rate in a population of animals.
> 
> ...


Indeed, this is another case of why "genotype over phenotype".

Are you a breeder? You certainly think like one.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> Indeed, this is another case of why "genotype over phenotype".
> 
> Are you a breeder? You certainly think like one.


I can't help but think like a breeder. Its in the genes. 

My grandfather started a line of farm collies, (loose eyed for dairy needs) pre WWI that he, and then my mom and aunts, kept going until the mid 70s. They all farmed. I grew up understanding breeding - cattle, horses, sheep, pigs and dogs. My mom focused on specialized cattle (mixed holstein for dairy) as that was her passion. My aunt and uncle were some of the first beefalo farmers in Canada. The loose eyed descendents from my grandfather's lines ended up bred to harder stock dogs as the farming switched from dairy to ranching in the family, which suited the needs of their owners just fine.

Mom got sick (permanently) and we moved from the farm only keeping some land and a hobby farm. I helped her breed her cattle for years as she couldn't do it herself any longer. I believe if you research you will find that cattle breeders (serious ones) were looking into management systems for diversity half a century ago, if not longer as weak lines of cattle affect the food that goes on the table. My mom deliberately outcrossed Holsteins and then brought her lines back into the Holstein stud book at the 4 gen mark - which has always been allowed in cattle breeding. She also bred Black-Baldy (Hereford x Angus) for the table and market.

I have always had a love of dogs. I also like the study of genetics. I can't help but apply the knowledge I've gained to the topic of dog breeding. I don't understand showing and the competition events, however, so admit to not 'getting' the desire to take some of the risks that I see taken.

CC


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