# Puppy that i am picking up on monday- is on the worst puppy food ever



## Mad4Muttz (Apr 11, 2012)

and yes you may have guessed BAKERS Puppy- no wonder when I went to pick her she had a upset tummy from the look of her back end

when she gets home she will be weaned off it slowly onto something a bit better but what puppy food is best to get?

your opinions please


----------



## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Burns, CSJ? Good food brands.


----------



## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Depends on whether you want to feed wet or dry, what's your current dog being fed?

I'm not sure I'd buy a pup from a breeder who feeds Bakers


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Im not sure i would like the fact that a 4 week old puppy had a dirty bum when going to visit it, the breeder should have them clean and alert.

In another thread you said she was on wagg! 

Although i cannot take what the op says as gospel anyway!


----------



## Mad4Muttz (Apr 11, 2012)

well when i went to see her they had wagg puppy on the table so that is why i thought she was on that one

my current dog is on winalot wet food

big story curt short breeder had split with her husband at the wrong time and they said things didnt go to plan as they would of hoped and it came at the worst time ever when there bitch had pups now they are living at the wifes house because the previous home had to be sold

what about wainwrights trays?


----------



## Reverie (Mar 26, 2012)

Wainwrights trays are very good, as is Naturediet, which is what I feed, although I will be switching to raw. 

Will you be switching your existing dog? As Winalot is not really any better than Bakers I'm afraid.


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

What sort of budget do you have?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> Im not sure i would like the fact that a 4 week old puppy had a dirty bum when going to visit it, the breeder should have them clean and alert.
> 
> In another thread you said she was on wagg!
> 
> Although i cannot take what the op says as gospel anyway!


She did say they were on Wagg, and also said she had bought a bag of JWB puppy food (I think that's what it was) to change her on to.

This sounds like a BYB to me; to let someone visit and the pup have a shi**y bum, presumably knowing you were coming, smacks of someone who couldn't care less.

You do realise, I suppose, at this time of year that shi**y bum = flies = maggots.

I don't care what sort of upheavel she says she has had, there is no excuse for not caring for young puppies, especially when a prospective owner is coming to visit.

You should also get Toby off Winalot; it is also crap.


----------



## roxyapril (Oct 19, 2011)

We like wainwrights I use wet trays and the dry its good stuff


----------



## loubyfrog (Feb 29, 2012)

Winalot is just has bad as Bakers,both are full of rubbish!! I'm no dog nutritional expert but even i know this.

Get all your dogs on a decent food like wainwrights,you can get it wet or dry & is easily available (pets at home often do deals on it)


----------



## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

I have just put my puppy on Fish4Dogs the puppy dry food she loves it and its all natural ingredients and very high meat (well fish) content it's £49 for a 12kg bag


----------



## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

The rule I tend to use is to not feed any food you find in your average supermarket shelves.

I know some people on here have said you can get better brands such a James WellBeloved at their supermarkets but certainly where I am the supermarkets only seem to stock low quality grain and additive / colourant filled foods.

Also cost is not representative of quality - You can get cheaper foods which are much better nutirtionally than more expensive foods.


----------



## Reverie (Mar 26, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> You can get cheaper foods which are much better nutirtionally than more expensive foods.


Case in point- Royal Canin! That food is just ridiculous. I can't see how they excuse making different foods for different breeds. Have you seen this product list?

Breed Health Nutrition - Royal Canin



Mmm, really expensive doggy cereal. 

Know that was slightly off topic but the Royal Canin people really p**s me off. Especially since my vet always rates this food. Sigh.


----------



## toffee44 (Oct 21, 2011)

Personally I would be telling the breeder that you wont be taking the pup home until his "dicky" tummy has cleared up.

What state are the other pups in, you could be exposing your existing dog to something?


----------



## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Winalot is shite, a friend of mine's dogs are on it and their condition is terrible, awful liquid poos - when I was looking after them I bought them a filled bone each to firm them up because I literally couldn't pick anything up, their poor stomachs must be wrecked  I know how I feel after eating a bowl of Weetabix, can't imagine how it must be for them...

I'd hold off as well, Toby's not well anyways, anything could trigger another attack and he might not be so lucky next time.


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Wainwrights puppy trays are good and so is the wainwrights complete puppy food.I am feeding my pup on this and she is doing well.


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Argent said:


> Winalot is shite, a friend of mine's dogs are on it and their condition is terrible, awful liquid poos - when I was looking after them I bought them a filled bone each to firm them up because I literally couldn't pick anything up, their poor stomachs must be wrecked  I know how I feel after eating a bowl of Weetabix, can't imagine how it must be for them...
> 
> I'd hold off as well, Toby's not well anyways, anything could trigger another attack and he might not be so lucky next time.


yes with how ill your other dog is i wouldnt risk him getting infected with what she could have. i never seen pups with dirty bums at a breeders.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Mad4Muttz said:


> well when i went to see her they had wagg puppy on the table so that is why i thought she was on that one
> 
> my current dog is on winalot wet food
> 
> ...


I am presuming that the pups are with their mother? If you have seen pups only I'd run in the other direction fast - the 'split' story was used when a woman I know bought a pup, hadn't seen the dam at the house and turned out it was just a front for a third party selling pups for a puppy farmer .


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Reverie said:


> Case in point- Royal Canin! That food is just ridiculous. I can't see how they excuse making different foods for different breeds. Have you seen this product list?
> 
> Breed Health Nutrition - Royal Canin
> 
> ...


Though I agree about the breed specific foods, Royal Canin is the one and only food that agrees with Ferdie, apart from Chappie. I have tried all sorts, trying to find something cheaper but good, but they all have the same result - squelchies! So he is back on Royal Canin, just ordered a new bag. I don't know why, mind you. Looking at the ingredients you would think it would be just the opposite, but it suits my dogs better than anything.

If I had small dogs like Bichons, they would be on wet food anyway and things like Nature Diet, Natures Harvest, are good foods.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Argent said:


> Winalot is shite, a friend of mine's dogs are on it and their condition is terrible, awful liquid poos - when I was looking after them I bought them a filled bone each to firm them up because I literally couldn't pick anything up, their poor stomachs must be wrecked  I know how I feel after eating a bowl of Weetabix, can't imagine how it must be for them...
> 
> I'd hold off as well, Toby's not well anyways, anything could trigger another attack and he might not be so lucky next time.


Is Toby still unwell then? I thought that had been sorted. I wouldn't be getting a puppy while he is ill, certainly not one with a mucky a*se


----------



## Reverie (Mar 26, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Though I agree about the breed specific foods, Royal Canin is the one and only food that agrees with Ferdie, apart from Chappie. I have tried all sorts, trying to find something cheaper but good, but they all have the same result - squelchies! So he is back on Royal Canin, just ordered a new bag. I don't know why, mind you. Looking at the ingredients you would think it would be just the opposite, but it suits my dogs better than anything.
> 
> If I had small dogs like Bichons, they would be on wet food anyway and things like Nature Diet, Natures Harvest, are good foods.


Hehe, well our dogs do like to confuse us sometimes don't they?  that must cost a fortune! Glad it works for them though. I just feel that their marketing is pretty much criminal.

Agree with you about small dogs and wet food. People think that it is super expensive but it really isn't. I calculated roughly how much of Naturediet I would need for adult Buffy and it's only a tray a day, which is nothing really considering that you can get them on zooplus for pretty cheap.


----------



## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Is Toby still unwell then? I thought that had been sorted. I wouldn't be getting a puppy while he is ill, certainly not one with a mucky a*se


I have no idea if he's still unwell right now, but it wasn't a passing infection or bug, it's a condition he has to live with, and anything could set him off again, a puppy with a mucky bum should be the last thing he's in contact with...


----------



## Megan_M (Jul 13, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> She did say they were on Wagg, and also said she had bought a bag of JWB puppy food (I think that's what it was) to change her on to.


Well she has a bag of JWB Lamb and Rice puppy food in the background of a pic she posted in her doggie shopping thread...

Agree with everyone else Wainwrights is good, as is JWB (have used both aswell as a couple others for our dogs as pups). 
Also would be skeptical about the breeders story, no pups we've been to see, to get for ourselves or friends litters have been anything other than clean, healthy, happy pups, regardless of the breeders personal circumstances...heck I know someone who had to handfeed/raise 11 rottie pups from just a couple of days old, look after the mum and her other 3 adult rotties, still ran her training class and did the other day to day stuff and the pups were well looked after and kept clean etc


----------



## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

It can be hard to switch food when you know the they have been through a lot already. The only thing I found worked for a long time was Iams despite it's bad reputation. I have made the switch to Skinners D & R recently but I was worried watching her poos like a hawk. I am thinking she may have grown out of her sensitivity if that is possible or built up her gut flora or something. 
Skinners are good for samples if you ask them and good for a low budget food. 
If you have a small dog however wainwrights trays/natures diet are good. The dry worked well for mine for awhile but with the occasional upset stomach so we switched in the end. Another good way of getting vitamins into your pup is meat supplement your dog food with meat or meat meals. 
I did feed mine winalot in the past as a mixer for her main food as she refused to eat for awhile, but bakers really is not good for behaviour in puppies.I think our trainer said it's because of the high sugar content. Our breeder had them on a specialist food I forget which she gave us half a bag of and told us where to get it if we wanted it delivered. 
Bakers isn't the worst our family collected a rescue in the past where the dog food they gave us to transfer her on was predominantly rabbit food mixed with cheap broken dog treats :frown2:


----------



## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

I tend to agree with what others have said so far!

Firstly, are the pups being fed Wagg (as you've mentioned previously) or Bakers (as per this thread)? If they've been changed from one to the other that could well make an already unhappy tummy worse and cause diarrhoea, or it could be a bacterial infection. Have they been wormed? What has the breeder said about the upset stomach? Is more than one pup affected?

I'd be inclined to say that if the pup is no better by the weekend to hold off bringing them home until it is (or start looking for a more responsible breeder) for Toby's sake, you don't know for sure whether the pup can pass anything onto him or not until either she's _thoroughly_ health checked by the vet OR until it actually happens and you have two sick dogs on your hands.
Whatever you do, get the pup examined by a vet, ideally before it sets foot in your home. 
Even if there's no infection to be passed on, remember that stress suppresses the immune response which could potentially make Toby (or the pup for that matter) more susceptible to disease, so make sure introductions, interactions and routine changes are as calm and gentle as possible.

Yes, Winalot is terrible food, barely an improvement on Bakers/Wagg! I'd be looking into Wainwrights, Nature's Menu and Naturediet as others have suggested and Milliepoochie's rule about avoiding supermarket food is a good one. Arden Grange wet food is another good option! Ultimately it depends on your budget.

I wouldn't feed it long-term but we always have a few cans of Chappie in the house to settle S+B's stomachs if they've stolen something that's given them a dicky tum (fortunately not a regular occurrence!). Not a "good" food but if you were to run out of your usual for example it's a decent, easy to get hold of replacement. Butcher's Tripe Mix seems to have much the same effect and I've known kennels to use it on their more sensitive dogs.


----------



## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

Thorne said:


> Butcher's Tripe Mix seems to have much the same effect and I've known kennels to use it on their more sensitive dogs.


That is what i was using when i ran out of her dry and was waiting for more from online it was great and quite cheap!


----------



## Mad4Muttz (Apr 11, 2012)

toby is all clear now the vet said he has passed with flying colours. we just have to make sure we dont give anything fattening.

just had a phone call from the breeder saying she is now being well looked after. i hope to turn up to a nice shiny white bum with no terds stuck to her bottom. good job i wore my old clothes.

she has sent me some updated pictures of her so will put them up and you can see whether she looks happy or not 


we have toby on Royal canine Low fat for his condition and so far it has worked out perfectly- will have to make another visit to [email protected] for a much better branded dog food- was there a thread made ages ago on which dog/puppy food was better with

Green 

orange

red

indicating what is in it and whether they think its good- if anyone can send me the link would be fab


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

as usual i can make head nor tail of your threads. you said toby is on winalot on the first page and now he is on rc.

frankly if a puppy has a bum so bad you need old clotjes as it is that dirty that indicates it is not well cared for at all.


----------



## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> as usual i can make head nor tail of your threads. you said toby is on winalot on the first page and now he is on rc.
> 
> frankly if a puppy has a bum so bad you need old clotjes as it is that dirty that indicates it is not well cared for at all.


am a little confused too


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Mad4Muttz said:


> toby is all clear now the vet said he has passed with flying colours. we just have to make sure we dont give anything fattening.
> 
> just had a phone call from the breeder saying she is now being well looked after. i hope to turn up to a nice shiny white bum with no terds stuck to her bottom. good job i wore my old clothes.
> 
> ...


This one? The food indexes are stickies in the Health and Nutrition section. http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/189896-dry-dog-food-index.html

I'm pretty confused by your posts too TBH!


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

well from your other thread you say the breeder is worming with shirleys so id be prepared for her to have worms when you come to you for one, but the food and wormer and the fact that she didnt even wipe their bum screams puppy farm.

i mean wouldnt anyone clean a puppys bum if it was filthy, and as someone says in the heat that can attract flies and infections etc.


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

with all the information available on here concerning the buying of a puppy , the feeding of a puppy and blah , blah , blah i`m surprised the OP needs to ask all these questions , a simple search would throw the answers out.
when i looked at the puppy photo`s before , didn`t want to say anything but the pups did look a little on the `dicky` side if you ask me.


----------



## Mad4Muttz (Apr 11, 2012)

to get him to eat the royal canine we have to mix it in with winalot. but now he seems to be interested in chicken 

will have to keep him on a food which will agree with him and winalot seems to be the only one that does

people obv will have diferent opinions on foods they feed their dog i am by no means being bitchy in this thread just trying to see which other foods i can purchase that will suit both Toby and new one


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Mad4Muttz said:


> to get him to eat the royal canine we have to mix it in with winalot. but now he seems to be interested in chicken
> 
> will have to keep him on a food which will agree with him and winalot seems to be the only one that does
> 
> people obv will have diferent opinions on foods they feed their dog i am by no means being bitchy in this thread just trying to see which other foods i can purchase that will suit both Toby and new one


But if Toby is on this special RC food for his condition, you cannot feed both him and the puppy the same thing. Besides a low fat food is no good for a puppy. What is wrong with the JWB that you have already bought? I would try that first and see how pup gets on with it.

I don't quite understand the breeder saying they are well cared for "now". Does that mean she knew they were not well cared for before? I think there is something a bit fishy about this litter and this breeder.

If you must mix a little wet food in to get Toby to eat the RC, you are better off with a little original chappie. That is very low fat and would be better for him.


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Don't know the reasons as to why your feeding Toby RC Low fat..
but if he is tolerating the Winalot which is 19.9% fat.. I'm sure you could ask the vet about taking him off the RC and changing him over to something like Burns which at 7.5% fat if i remember is not much higher than the RC ..then when pup is older she can also have the burns..


----------



## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

These threads make my head hurt........


----------



## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

You could try Simpsons if you are looking for a good quality dry food. 
Simpsons Premium - Complete Dry Dog Food

Pippa has recently been changed to Simpsons and is doing really well on it 

It must be hard to see the pup in bad condition, poor thing. I know people say you shouldn't get it, but that doesn't help that particular pup does it!? I would maybe switch over to something like Chappie to settle her tummy and work your way up gradually to the new food.

Good luck


----------



## Mad4Muttz (Apr 11, 2012)

thank you for all your replies the last time i spoke to tobys vet and he asked me what i was feeding him and i said "winalot" he looked unhappy so does that mean he knows its bad for him

all i wanted from this thread was some advice that was all

so first i shall try JWB and see how she copes then will watch her poops for white wriggly things in it

Breeder will next be in contact with me sunday night to check everything over
and on the monday do you think it would be best to get her health checked out with a vet where i live? she has already had her first injection and has been health checked
other than that I cant seem to think of another way to get her checked. unless i ask for a vet to go and see her before she leaves if the breeder will agree


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

Mad4Muttz said:


> all i wanted from this thread was some advice that was all
> 
> so first i shall try JWB and see how she copes then will watch her poops for white wriggly things in it
> 
> ...


going by this photo , i`d say theres going to be more than a few `white wiggly things`
look at the size of that pups tummy








also i`m curious , in classifieds you put up for sale a bag of 2kg JWB rice and lamb puppy kibble
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-clas...amb-rice-james-wellbeloved-puppy-kibbles.html
why did you do this knowing you had a pup coming in just a few weeks time ? perfect food for a puppy , so i dunno why your asking now


----------



## Mad4Muttz (Apr 11, 2012)

because at the time i didnt know what food she was on and thought JWB was a bit on the expensive side for a puppy food. i mean if its good quality then i shall keep it.

her puppys have always been chunky. toby was even chunky and i get comments around the park from other bichon owners saying its the biggest bichon they have ever seen. so it must just be the parents side of them it either that or puppies are over fed. touch wood toby has never had any worms so far and he is from same breeder. 

i could possibly show you a link to her website and she is also on epupz and another one


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Oh dear that does not look a 'chunky' pup to me.

Epupz.... Hmmmmm.


----------



## Mad4Muttz (Apr 11, 2012)

i will not say anything else other than she is D.L REG too

so that i dont get anymore stick for what i have been saying


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

Mad4Muttz said:


> i will not say anything else other than she is D.L REG too
> 
> so that i dont get anymore stick for what i have been saying


DLRC registered , please tell me you are joking ?


----------



## wacky69 (Apr 5, 2012)

diablo said:


> DLRC registered , please tell me you are joking ?


i agree. Not worth paper its printed on!


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

diablo said:


> DLRC registered , please tell me you are joking ?


What is that? Never heard of it.

OP, I don't think you are getting any stick, only sound advice before it is too late. I think your vet probably did not approve of Winalot but was too polite to say so. I always mix in some pilchards with my dogs' dried as Ferdie won't eat it dry either and fish is always good for them.

Obviously you have set your heart on this puppy and are excited about getting her, but you do have to think very carefully about what you are doing.

I seem to recall that you are one of the members who are always telling others to find a good breeder of kc registered pups, and here you are doing the opposite.

I hope it all works out. You already have Toby ill, have lost Coco at only 7 months, I would hate for you to have yet another sick dog.


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Im sure the OP is trying to provoke.

If its true then she knew going in as it is the same breeder as her dog toby.


----------



## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

diablo said:


> DLRC registered , please tell me you are joking ?


sorry but what is DLRC never heard of that


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

sianrees1979 said:


> sorry but what is DLRC never heard of that


dog lovers registration club , set up by a puppy farmer so i believe , just looking on their site , they reg bichon crosses too! oh dear!!


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Its for dogs with no pedigree.


----------



## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Dog Lovers Registration Club (I didn't know either so had to Google it )
The first line says 'Is your dog a pedigree but has no birth certificate' Hmm, whats the point??


----------



## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

diablo said:


> dog lovers registration club , set up by a puppy farmer so i believe , just looking on their site , they reg bichon crosses too! oh dear!!


oh, why not just get a KC REG puppy from a reputable breeder


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

She looks like a lovely puppy bless her. If shes been wormed with Sherleys shes likely to have more than LITTLE white wiggly things. Think more spaghetti several inches long. A breeder that uses Sherleys is unlikely to have wormed the dam adequately so pups could have had worms from birth still lurking around.

My advice is to take the puppy to the vet the day you collect her for a thorough health check and get a decent wormer from the Vet like Panacur or Milbemax. When you use the appropriate wormer prepare for the wigglies to make an appearance 

Sorry to say that a lot of things are not sounding too good where this puppy / breeder is concerned but if youve fallen in love with her then good luck and I hope things go well

As for the registration papers, they will come in handy if the pup gets the squits again and you run out of loo roll


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sianrees1979 said:


> oh, why not just get a KC REG puppy from a reputable breeder


The usual reasons are either the buyer doesn't know any better (not in this case) or because a kc reg pup is a lot more expensive.


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> Its for dogs with no pedigree.


or sometimes for kc bitches who were too old for breeding. or people who carry out back to back breedings.

they`ll actually reg

bichon crosses
bulldog crosses
cairn terrier crosses
chihuahua crosses
french bulldog crosses
golden retriever crosses
maltese crosses
lurchers 
mongrels
yorkie crosses


----------



## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> The usual reasons are either the buyer doesn't know any better (not in this case) or because a kc reg pup is a lot more expensive.


but with all the vets bills the OP would probably pay in the future then a KC puppy from a reputable breeder would work out less wouldn't you think


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> The usual reasons are either the buyer doesn't know any better (not in this case) or because a kc reg pup is a lot more expensive.


kc pups are probably a lot cheaper theres chi`s on there they want £950 for dream on!


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

diablo said:


> or sometimes for kc bitches who were too old for breeding. or people who carry out back to back breedings.
> 
> they`ll actually reg
> 
> ...


Oh dear. That is all.........


----------



## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

diablo said:


> or sometimes for kc bitches who were too old for breeding. or people who carry out back to back breedings.
> 
> they`ll actually reg
> 
> ...


totally speachless :


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sianrees1979 said:


> but with all the vets bills the OP would probably pay in the future then a KC puppy from a reputable breeder would work out less wouldn't you think


Well I would, yes, but people don't think like that do they? They see what they think is a bargain and buy it, and come away very pleased with themselves till it all goes wrong. I hope it works out, I really do, but I would have thought the OP had a bit more knowledge than that.


----------



## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Well I would, yes, but people don't think like that do they? They see what they think is a bargain and buy it, and come away very pleased with themselves till it all goes wrong. I hope it works out, I really do, but I would have thought the OP had a bit more knowledge than that.


it's a shame people don't think before they buy that cute little puppy then find out how un healthy the poor thing really is, then maybe there would be no need for all those puppy (torture) farms would there


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Mad4Muttz said:


> i will not say anything else other than she is D.L REG too
> 
> so that i dont get anymore stick for what i have been saying


Do you mean this?
Dog Lovers Registration Club UK I think you will find that doesnt give you any guarantees.

I think you said they are the same breeder as Toby too. What medical problem has toby got exactly has the vet told you. If these dogs are very closely related to toby and he has something genetic there may be a possibility the pups could have the same depending on who their ancestors are.


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

If you do decide to go through with it, then I'd make sure you get 4 weeks free insurance as part of the deal and get a good covered for life insurance policy asap.


----------



## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

I am a bit confused by some of this thread BUT...
I think I would get a pup from somewhere else. If OP already has a dog that's unwell from this breeder and things don't seem quite right with the latest litter then it's best to walk away. How ever careful even the best breeders are there is always a chance of problems but at least everyone involved has done their best to prevent unhealthy pups.
Hard as it seems I think OP needs to walk away.


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

quite shocked to see a kennel club assured breeder advertising their dog for stud on there
surely that IS against the kc`s code of ethics ?


----------



## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Can i ask how much are you paying for this puppy? with all you have put on here and the advice you have been given i really dont understand why you are willing to line the pockets of someone who lets pups so young have dirty botts and to me only seems to be in it for the £££££s ,
On a seperate note can i ask about the collars you said you wanted tested,, i sent you my details but did not recieve a collar, have you now stopped making the collars?


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Jobeth said:


> If you do decide to go through with it, then I'd make sure you get 4 weeks free insurance as part of the deal and get a good covered for life insurance policy asap.


If you use the 4 weeks free insurance (which i doubt a puppy such as this will have) then when you get a for life cover it will not cover what you have claimed for in the free trial.

Also the insurance will not cover for wormers or i think any worm related problems in a puppy as it is part of the agreement they be properly wormed.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Mad4Muttz said:


> her puppys have always been chunky.


Sorry but that is not a chunky puppy - that tummy is abnormal! totally and utterly wrong! They can be chunky without looking like balloons 

You need to run a million miles from this breeder - do you realise that everything you've said equates to a puppy farmer? DL registered, wormed with a s**t wormer, fed on bl**dy Bakers, horrible unhealthily fat appearance, FILTHY (who on earth leaves a litter of pups with crap around their ar$es??), advertised on ePupz, some sort of sob story/excuse... that split was VERY convenient if you ask me 

Their story doesn't add up and your story doesn't add up either.... your poor dog seems to have been on every food under the sun between the last couple of threads 

I for one would LOVE to see this breeders website - I think you said they had one?

If you've an ounce of common sense in you, you will know that you are giving your money to the WRONG breeder. They've done everything on the cheap, fed them poor, poor puppies TERRIBLE food and they do not look to be in good health. Do you really want yet ANOTHER sick dog?

I despair. I genuinely really despair :nonod:


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> On a seperate note can i ask about the collars you said you wanted tested,, i sent you my details but did not recieve a collar, have you now stopped making the collars?


you've had a lucky escape from one of those things, did you ever see the 'finished' product?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think OP has done a runner rather than listen to good advice. But just in case she is still listening:

A decent breeder does not feed Bakers
A decent breeder does not let her puppies have sh*tty bums
A decent breeder does not use wormer from the pet shop
A decent breeder does not register with anything other than the Kennel Club

Please think again. There are lots of nice, well bred Bichons out there if you take the time to look.


----------



## WhippetyAmey (Mar 4, 2012)

I despair. Again. 

OP please listen to what others have said.


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

Mad4Muttz said:


> her puppys have always been chunky.


trust me when i say i know an absolute belly full of worms when i see one and THAT is it.



Mad4Muttz said:


> toby was even chunky and i get comments around the park from other bichon owners saying its the biggest bichon they have ever seen.


has it ever occurred to you he could well be a cross.



Mad4Muttz said:


> i could possibly show you a link to her website and she is also on epupz and another one


linky please i`d LOVE to see


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

I honestly think the OP is trying to provoke. I can't work out what is fact and fiction anymore


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Mad4Muttz said:


> because at the time i didnt know what food she was on and thought JWB was a bit on the expensive side for a puppy food. i mean if its good quality then i shall keep it.
> 
> her puppys have always been chunky. toby was even chunky and i get comments around the park from other bichon owners saying its the biggest bichon they have ever seen. so it must just be the parents side of them it either that or puppies are over fed. touch wood toby has never had any worms so far and he is from same breeder.
> 
> i could possibly show you a link to her website and she is also on epupz and another one


that puppy isnt chunky im afraid, the poor thing is riddled with worms, ive not read all posts, but i gather Toby has a condition? if so then why would you risk buying another puppy from the same breeder, & this breeder is clearly a very bad one, please dont support them, dogs will never stop suffering until people like youself stop buying their puppies....so run a mile! and find a lovely reputable breeder with healthy puppies:thumbsup:

(you should worm Toby at least every 6 months whether you can see worms or not.)

.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I think OP has done a runner rather than listen to good advice. But just in case she is still listening:
> 
> A decent breeder does not feed Bakers
> A decent breeder does not let her puppies have sh*tty bums
> ...


oh don't worry, i'm sure she'll be back soon creating a totally different thread with totally different questions, acting like nothing has ever happened and never taking on any advice.

Just like when her parents died. I do hope she is coping okay


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Tigerneko said:


> oh don't worry, i'm sure she'll be back soon creating a totally different thread with totally different questions, acting like nothing has ever happened and never taking on any advice.
> 
> Just like when her parents died. I do hope she is coping okay


Yes, she has had enough grief lately. We are only trying to prevent her having a sick dog as well.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> no wonder when I went to pick her she had a upset tummy from the look of her back end


The breeder should not have let a puppy go if they have a problem. She should have stayed at the breeder until this had cleared. There may be something else (and a lot worse than poor quality food) that is causing this.


----------



## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Almost time for my spam sandwich again i think,,,,,


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

apparently he has Lymphangiectasia and heart spasms.
i wouldnt go near a breeder with a barge pole when my dog was suffering how he does and then knowing about the non kc reg and food and wormers and dirty bums, i really can't believe it, although from this poster i sadly do


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> Almost time for my spam sandwich again i think,,,,,


I hear spamwiches taste even better when eaten under a bridge


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> Almost time for my spam sandwich again i think,,,,,


do you want a bit of troll sauce with your spam sandwich?


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

hazel pritchard said:


> Almost time for my spam sandwich again i think,,,,,


I don't like spam.. can I have cheese please


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> i really can't believe it, although from this poster i sadly do


or do we...?


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Tigerneko said:


> or do we...?


well, lets say you can never be shocked with what she comes out with, whatever next?


----------



## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

cloversmum said:


> I don't like spam.. can I have cheese please


i don't either, make mine bacon please


----------



## toffee44 (Oct 21, 2011)

Argh head hurts.

If you want my opinon of what is the best food to feed, its Troll Pellets, to your self.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 22, 2010)

I am confused now too. Is this person genuinely concerned about a puppy/breeder/diet?


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I am confused now too. Is this person genuinely concerned about a puppy/breeder/diet?


no......


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> apparently he has Lymphangiectasia and heart spasms.
> i wouldnt go near a breeder with a barge pole when my dog was suffering how he does and then knowing about the non kc reg and food and wormers and dirty bums, i really can't believe it, although from this poster i sadly do


Never heard of it. Is it genetic, or hereditary?


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I am confused now too. Is this person genuinely concerned about a puppy/breeder/diet?


dunno really , all very hard to work out bit like the tide ain`t it


----------



## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Now i know you all like spam,,,,
Spam - YouTube


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I am confused now too. Is this person genuinely concerned about a puppy/breeder/diet?


the op lives in another world and i doubt has a care in the world.


----------



## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I despair i really do.........


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

All I can say is that if OP goes ahead and buys this puppy, she will be back here in a couple of months upset because the dog is ill, just like she was last year with Coco and Toby both being ill at the same time. But she has made up her mind that she is getting this puppy, no matter what the cost in vet bills and heartache.

I think it will be a shame in that case if all she gets is "I told you so" but I see that is what will happen.

I am also very puzzled as to how someone can say that JWB puppy food is too expensive, but waste the amount of money she has on loads of different collars and bits for the dog, even to a personalised food set with Molly on, then changing her mind about the dog's name.

Surely a decent food is far more important isn't it?


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> If you use the 4 weeks free insurance (which i doubt a puppy such as this will have) then when you get a for life cover it will not cover what you have claimed for in the free trial.
> 
> Also the insurance will not cover for wormers or i think any worm related problems in a puppy as it is part of the agreement they be properly wormed.


Worming treatment won't cost much though and you wouldn't need to claim.

I'd only use the free insurance if it was something so expensive you couldn't pay for it due to the reason you give.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I am also very puzzled as to how someone can say that JWB puppy food is too expensive, but waste the amount of money she has on loads of different collars and bits for the dog, even to a personalised food set with Molly on, then changing her mind about the dog's name.
> 
> Surely a decent food is far more important isn't it?


I was just pondering that exact thing myself!

and don't be silly, personalised bowls are FAR more important, who gives a stuff what you put in them.... in fact, bakers is all pretty and colourful so I think that would look brilliant! I just wish they'd start making a pink food to match the bowls


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> the op lives in another world and i doubt has a care in the world.


[youtube_browser]Cc9KFDjcaL0[/youtube_browser]


----------



## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

It's actually really rather worrying.

I think the OP needs some professional help TBH, starting with a GP.


----------



## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

Bjt said:


> Wainwrights puppy trays are good and so is the wainwrights complete puppy food.I am feeding my pup on this and she is doing well.


We have just moved our new pup over to Wainwrights Salmon and potato puppy kibble and Nature diet after arriving on a not so good complete

I always put our new pups on this food as they never seem to have any upset tummys on the change over


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't know what health issues Toby has, or what happened to your young pup, Coco, but after having these things happen, surely you would be extra careful with what breeder you go to? 

Arrow was my first ever dog from a breeder... I did my best at finding a good breeder, and I am pleased with the breeder and I am chuffed to bits with Arrow... but, next time I have questions that I will ask, that I failed to ask this time... I have now learnt what to ask, and learnt from my mistakes on what I didn't ask... I would have thought that was a normal thing, and that people do improve on that when they go on to get future dogs... 

I wouldn't touch this breeder with a barge pole... from what has been said, I think it will most likely end in heartache, with another sick puppy.


----------



## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Well, I was waiting for this thread to develop! Sadly I can't say I'm remotely surprised by anything the OP has posted (both on this thread and others).

At the end of the day why post for advice when you've already made your mind up that you're having this badly cared for puppy from a BYB/Puppy Farmer who is known to breed unhealthy dogs, and continue to feed crappy food? 
Anyone with any sense would surely walk away from someone like this! Certainly can't be described as a responsible breeder to say the least.

I think the question is whether the pup is really due to be collected or whether we've been spun another yarn. Does Molly/Lexi exist or have we been treated to some copied photos from around the web?

Puppy and Toby aside, the next person I'd be speaking to would be a GP - if nothing else they might be able to sort out some grievance counselling 

*IF the OP is still watching this thread:*
- Walk away and either find a genuine, assured breeder or don't buy a pup at all
*IF you end up getting this pup:*
- Make sure you get the aforementioned 4wks free insurance
- Take the pup to the vets!
- Buy some Panacur to get rid of the obvious worm infestation (and flea treat while you're at it)
- Put puppy and Toby on a decent food (ditch the Winalot!)
- Be prepared for lots of vet visits in the future, that's the price you _may_ end up paying for a poorly bred and poorly raised puppy
- Don't go back to this "breeder" again, ever!

Wish I could say I'm surprised!


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Now i may seem harsh in this statement but sadly thats where this OP leads me to believe this.

Is is not possible that buying this poorly puppy gets her the attention she so craves?


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 22, 2010)

> I think the question is whether the pup is really due to be collected or whether we've been spun another yarn. Does Molly/Lexi exist or have we been treated to some copied photos from around the web?


OMG! Do people really bother to do that sort of thing??!! I am clearly either very naive or very stupid. Why would you bother to waste your time on something which is fictional and may just get everyone's back up??!!


----------



## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Now i may seem harsh in this statement but sadly thats where this OP leads me to believe this.
> 
> Is is not possible that buying this poorly puppy gets her the attention she so craves?


Possibly even munchausen syndrome by proxy; wouldn't shock me at all if that were the case.


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> OMG! Do people really bother to do that sort of thing??!! I am clearly either very naive or very stupid. Why would you bother to waste your time on something which is fictional and may just get everyone's back up??!!


Well this poster has made up more then a puppy but sadly i believe this puppy is for real!


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Just lose the 4Muttz bit and we will have an accurate assement of the whole situation.


----------



## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> OMG! Do people really bother to do that sort of thing??!! I am clearly either very naive or very stupid. Why would you bother to waste your time on something which is fictional and may just get everyone's back up??!!


Sadly yes! I knew a girl of high school age who told everyone about her new Boxer puppy and how excited she was, then about it getting sick and dying. Would come into school and chat about it/cry when it "died".
She was a friend of my sister's and when my folks passed on their condolences it turned out there was no puppy at all. They still had their existing Boxer but hadn't had any new additions!

Besides, this is the internet and anything is possible. You don't have to be who you are in "real life".


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> OMG! Do people really bother to do that sort of thing??!! I am clearly either very naive or very stupid. Why would you bother to waste your time on something which is fictional and may just get everyone's back up??!!


More often than not it's either an attension thing or a medical issue.

I've done my fair share of fantasy lies, mine was medical issue now helped with medication.

I think the OP needs serious medical help.


----------



## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> I think the OP needs serious medical help.


Agreed, I think this is significantly more than a bored teenager after a bit of attention.
Sad really.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> OMG! Do people really bother to do that sort of thing??!! I am clearly either very naive or very stupid. Why would you bother to waste your time on something which is fictional and may just get everyone's back up??!!


I really don't know..... I think someone needs to tell her parents about the issue, although i'm afraid we can't because according to her, they died at the beginning of June. 5 minutes after the news broke however, she was on PF happily suggesting names for this puppy :001_huh: when questioned about it by another member, she used the phrase "upwards and onwards" ....not something I would personally think if i'd just lost both my parents...


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Can I make a suggestion?

If the OP is indeed as some people think "In need of serious help" surely the best thing for her then is to ignore these threads and not open a barage of posts which tell her she is a liar/ill etc? What is that going to achieve?

Mods, why has this thread not been closed/stopped? nothing more now than a witch hunt IMHO.


----------



## Jochan (Jun 16, 2012)

I changed our pup to Applaws due to a runny bum and she was cured within two days of introducing it. Its currently half price at our local Just 4 Pets so may be on offer in your area.


----------



## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Can I make a suggestion?
> 
> If the OP is indeed as some people think "In need of serious help" surely the best thing for her then is to ignore these threads and not open a barage of posts which tell her she is a liar/ill etc? What is that going to achieve?
> 
> Mods, why has this thread not been closed/stopped? nothing more now than a witch hunt IMHO.


Well said! I was reading this thread last night - what a lot of judgmental people there are on here! And how awful to imply the OP is lying to gain attention..... this Forum has turned into a "not so nice" place.


----------



## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

henry said:


> Well said! I was reading this thread last night - what a lot of judgmental people there are on here! And how awful to imply the OP is lying to gain attention..... this Forum has turned into a "not so nice" place.


Who do those people think they are to say the OP needs help? They don't know her and they must be very clever indeed to diagnose that someone needs help from behind their computer screens!


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Food recommended on here earlier, in my opinion utter crap:

Ingredients

Chicken Meal (min 27%), *Brown Rice* (min 26%), *Maize*, Chicken Fat, *Oats*, *Beet Pulp*, Chicken Liver Digest, Dried Egg, *Brewers* *Yeast,* Salmon Oil, Linseeds, Yucca Extract, Cranberry Extract, Mannanoligosaccharides (MOS), Fructooligosaccharides (FOS), Nucleotides, Glucosamine, MSM, Chondroitin, Minerals, Vitamins.

Naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols.

All highlighted bits totally unnecessary and brewers yeast is remnants left over from another product. Utter rubbish.


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

henry said:


> Well said! I was reading this thread last night - what a lot of judgmental people there are on here! And how awful to imply the OP is lying to gain attention..... this Forum has turned into a "not so nice" place.


Im sorry but it is her M O. She has lied all the time including about her parents dying in an accident when they are alive and well!


----------



## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Im sorry but it is her M O. She has lied all the time including about her parents dying in an accident when they are alive and well!


Has she admitted that - is that a fact? IF so, I agree the poor girl needs help, but not the sort you can get from a Pet Forum and there would be no benefit in making nasty comments and calling her "mad" like someone did earlier on in the thread.

AND that doesn't necessarily mean she is lying about the puppy.....


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

henry said:


> Has she admitted that - is that a fact? IF so, I agree the poor girl needs help, but not the sort you can get from a Pet Forum and there would be no benefit in making nasty comments and calling her "mad" like someone did earlier on in the thread.
> 
> AND that doesn't necessarily mean she is lying about the puppy.....


She hasnt but people who know them know they are still alive.

Tjeres also other things. After revealing the deaths she said onwards and upwards. A collar business where she got everyones address but no collars.

She was also an old member who also lied and made up things.

But i do not believe this puppy is a lie at all sadly.


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> She hasnt but people who know them know they are still alive.
> 
> Tjeres also other things. After revealing the deaths she said onwards and upwards. A collar business where she got everyones address but no collars.
> 
> ...


Right, well if she is a "liar" or whatever is fuelling her fire going to help?

Very easy to make such sweeping statements, don't entertain her and ignore her. End of story.

:confused5:


----------



## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

henry said:


> Who do those people think they are to say the OP needs help? They don't know her and they must be very clever indeed to diagnose that someone needs help from behind their computer screens!


My comment was made out of genuine concern for the OP. I've kept out of her threads until now but it's not the behaviour of a rational person and for her sake, I do hope she seeks help.


----------



## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

For goodness sake:mad5::mad5::mad5::mad5:

These threads are shameful and make me wonder why on earth I belong to such a community.

I can understand the concern for her supposed animals but what is the rest going to achieve?

The points about her lies have been made on previous threads. Why drag it up again over 100 posts, the majority have no relevance to her opening thread.
Post the facts early on to give an idea of what is possibly going on to nip it in the bud!!!

Or, leave well alone and let it die a natural. Put your input to other threads more relevant to a Pet Forum.

I offered to trial one of her collars but didnt dive in with contact details. As soon as I realised there was a problem, I let it die a natural and left well alone.


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Galadriel17 said:


> My comment was made out of genuine concern for the OP. I've kept out of her threads until now but it's not the behaviour of a rational person and for her sake, I do hope she seeks help.


Her threat threatening suicide sickened me especially as a very dear friend of mine killed himself earlier this year. I have kept well away from most of her threads.

I do think she may need help, honestly I do. Who knows why she feels the need to lie for attention, but accusing her of stuff like Munchausens By Proxy and attacking her and basically what I feel is bullying her in the way that has happened is not going to help. Ignore the threads, simply. She wants attention, don't give it her.

Some people on here are so high and mighty...I sincerely hope none of you or your family ever suffer from any mental illness.


----------



## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Horse and Hound said:


> Her threat threatening suicide sickened me especially as a very dear friend of mine killed himself earlier this year. I have kept well away from most of her threads.
> 
> I do think she may need help, honestly I do. Who knows why she feels the need to lie for attention, but accusing her of stuff like Munchausens By Proxy and attacking her and basically what I feel is bullying her in the way that has happened is not going to help. Ignore the threads, simply. She wants attention, don't give it her.
> 
> Some people on here are so high and mighty...I sincerely hope none of you or your family ever suffer from any mental illness.


Not sure why that's targeted at me,  I've not accused the OP 'of stuff like Munchausens' or attacked her, my comment was meant as advice out of concern _because_ of my experience of various mental illnesses.


----------



## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

Galadriel17 said:


> Not sure why that's targeted at me,  I've not accused the OP 'of stuff like Munchausens' or attacked her, my comment was meant as advice out of concern _because_ of my experience of various mental illnesses.


I don't think horse and hound was specifically directing this at you but more saying I also think the OP needs help, thus quoting you also advising you think she would benefit from help.

OP I think you have already been provided with some good advice regarding what food to feed your new puppy.

With regards to the pics you posted showing your new puppy feeding off the mother, that belly does not look healthy to me and looks like s/he has a belly full of worms, which to me does not sound like a good breeder at all.


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Jugsmalone said:


> I don't think horse and hound was specifically directing this at you but more saying I also think the OP needs help, thus quoting you also advising you think she would benefit from help.


Thanks for clarifying Jugs!

Galadriel, I wasn't directing the post at anyone merely agreeing that perhaps she does help and was trying, very inarticulately, to point out that people accusing her and basically what is no more than mocking either, will not help the situation.

She's craving attention for whatever reason and people are giving it to her and even more. There's a simple solution. IGNORE.


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

You've bought the puppy lots of nice things, but I think now you would be better off spending your money on useful things to improve the health of the puppy.
For the size of the dog perhaps you could look into feeding something like Arcana?
A small bag of that lasted my really little dog the best of part of a year!


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> OMG! Do people really bother to do that sort of thing??!! I am clearly either very naive or very stupid. Why would you bother to waste your time on something which is fictional and may just get everyone's back up??!!


I'm afraid we've had lots of imaginery dogs, imaginery families, even imaginery dying wives. Yes, people do spend their time like that.



Horse and Hound said:


> Can I make a suggestion?
> 
> If the OP is indeed as some people think "In need of serious help" surely the best thing for her then is to ignore these threads and not open a barage of posts which tell her she is a liar/ill etc? What is that going to achieve?
> 
> Mods, why has this thread not been closed/stopped? nothing more now than a witch hunt IMHO.


I was trying to ignore previous problems and warn her against buying this puppy for her own sake, having already lost a young puppy.



henry said:


> Who do those people think they are to say the OP needs help? They don't know her and they must be very clever indeed to diagnose that someone needs help from behind their computer screens!


I'm afraid it is known not supposed, by various means.

It would be a great shame if she goes ahead and buys this puppy, as she will be in for even more heartache.


----------



## Guest (Jul 6, 2012)

Horse and Hound said:


> She's craving attention for whatever reason and people are giving it to her and even more. There's a simple solution. IGNORE.


pretty hard when there`s pointless spammy threads being posted , OP isn`t daft and knows EXACTLY what they are doing go have a look through their threads!


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

diablo said:


> pretty hard when there`s pointless spammy threads being posted , OP isn`t daft and knows EXACTLY what they are doing go have a look through their threads!


No, its not hard to be honest, in fact it is quite easy. Don't read them.

People who crave attention soon do one if they don't get it.


----------

