# Is crate training cruel?



## UK Dog Lover (Dec 30, 2012)

Do you consider crate training to be cruel? I'll be getting my first dog soon and I won't be crate training as I personally would hate to be caged, so it's something I wouldn't do to the dog.

What's your view on this subject?


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Like with any training equipment/tool, if used and abused it can damage a dog. Locked away for 20 hours a day is evil and uncalled for. I crate mine if company come round, but they dont mind as to them thats "bed" not a place to be locked away for the day. They go in and out as they please any time of the day for chews, sleeping or just relaxing.

Used correctly and in the right way they are brilliant.


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## kathryn773 (Sep 2, 2008)

security for him and me!


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

as i said previously on another thread , crates can be life savers , but they are open to abuse - i don't think a dogs life should be confined to a crate if things work that way , wheres the pleasure in owning a dog ? crate training a dog isn't a bad thing though i don't believe they should be a permanent fixture in a dogs life. okay for use when pets are getting over surgery , and okay for car journeys and aiding house training , nothing else!


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

I don't think it's cruel, it provides the dog with a safe place
When I had a litter of pups from about 5/6 weeks they all used to take themselves off to bed in the crate (although I never locked them in it at that age)
My adult dogs are curled up in their crate now as I type, the door is open but they love to be in there


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Not when used correctly. A crate is a "den" for a dog, and can be his retreat when he wants to be alone. Buster loved his crate.

Obviously they are not designed for dogs to be left locked in all day long. A few hrs at most during the day. The dog would normally just sleep in it anyway! Also not to be used as isolation/punishment...its their happy place to relax.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

No not at all if used properly. 

If used properly they are a safe place for the dog. 


I personally consider it more cruel to leave a puppy in a living room when you go out and come home to find it has managed to chew live wires, and it is dead on the carpet.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

As with most other training tools, it's the way they are used that is important and the training that goes alongside them. 
I know of someone who was always recommending to just 'stick it in a crate' if the dog was destructive or messy in the house 

Equally, I've used crates with mine as pups to keep them safe, aid with training and help with recovery after surgery. 

Ultimately, even a lead and collar can be cruel if misused.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

You may hate to be caged, but you're not a dog are you?

Used correctly, crates are dens for dogs, safe places where they can retreat to. Many dogs will actually choose to go into their crates, they're not just places where the dog is forced to go. I crated my dog until very recently and she loved it because that's where she got her treats.

What's more they're an invaluable way to keep a puppy safe from themselves - you'll be surprised how much trouble a puppy can get up to, even in a room that you 'think' has been puppy-proofed. I'd rather crate my puppy than take it to the vet to remove an obstruction because it ate the skirting boards.


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## tia maria (Sep 16, 2012)

Tia is 12 mths old and goes in her crate when left home alone due to chewing, which we hope she'll grow out of. She's never been left longer than a couple of hours
None of our previous dogs were crated but Tia is a power chewer


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## tailtickle (Mar 19, 2012)

If used appropriately and for safety reasons (when you go to bed, or go out for a _short_ while) - and providing the Crate is a good size - then it will be his/her Den (not a Prison). A place where you know your Puppy is safe when you cannot keep an eye on him.

It should not be over-used. Neither should it be used _instead_ or _rather_ than training!

So a crate/den can be helpful and safe for your Puppy.

tailtickle x


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

My puppy is 6 months old and I'm currently sizing up a bigger crate because he chews everything, walls, plugs, cables...nevermind normal things, so he's safer crated than he is loose.

He's in it overnight and if he's left alone - most days that's 20 minutes while I grab a shower, sometimes it's a couple of hours while I go shopping. The rest of the time the door is open and he sometimes sleeps in it and he sometimes doesn't. He does run in there with stolen things though, or when the hoover is on or when something scares him in the garden, lol.


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## LouLatch (Jul 2, 2012)

I dont think its 'cruel' Tyler has used a crate all his life' i had to use one as he was distroying everything. It would only have been a matter of time before he chewed something that could of done him alot of harm (wires ect).

I have tryed leaving him out of the crate but he crys as he sees it as his 'safe' place where he feels comfortable. I dont shut him in anymore though i leave the door open and he has my bedroom to do as he pleases, so he still has a choice to go in the crate or not. I still dont trust him to have feer roam of the house when on one is in.

Wild dogs and wolf's live in dens and the crate can be used to create this in the home for a dog.

As long as the dog is not confined to a crate for long periods of time they can be a very effective training tool.

Like said before all training equipment can be 'abused' but thats the owners responibility to make sure this is not the case.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

UK Dog Lover said:


> Do you consider crate training to be cruel? I'll be getting my first dog soon and I won't be crate training as I personally would hate to be caged, so it's something I wouldn't do to the dog.
> 
> What's your view on this subject?


You would probably hate living in a little dark den too. Doesn't mean a dog would. It's a safe place for the dog. We had an extra large but he still outgrew it. I think he was genuinely disappointed when it went... but it's been replaced with several beanbags.


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## kaz25 (Aug 9, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> You may hate to be caged, but you're not a dog are you?
> 
> Used correctly, crates are dens for dogs, safe places where they can retreat to. Many dogs will actually choose to go into their crates, they're not just places where the dog is forced to go. I crated my dog until very recently and she loved it because that's where she got her treats.
> 
> *What's more they're an invaluable way to keep a puppy safe from themselves - you'll be surprised how much trouble a puppy can get up to, even in a room that you 'think' has been puppy-proofed. I'd rather crate my puppy than take it to the vet to remove an obstruction because it ate the skirting boards.*


Bindi is crated during the day and at night and this is the reason why. When I first got her she chewed the arm off my sofa plus many other things. I've never used it as a punishment - it's to keep her safe more than anything.

I know she shouldn't be in there for as long as she is but she goes in there out of her own free will and she knows it's time for sleeping when she is in there at night. During the day when I'm at work she has her kong which has been filled and frozen.

I don't do it for an easy way out - she's a 20 month old Labrador and chewing is what they do. She's calmed down an awful lot in the 11 months we've had her so we will be experimenting with leaving her out the crate soon. As has already been said though - you may think a room is "chew proof" but you'd be surprised what they can get up to.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I don't think they are cruel when used properly but personally I would much rather puppy proof a room.

What I do not like and think is wrong is when a dog is crated all night- taken for a morning walk then crated 7 hours whilst human is at work which I know people who do.

You need to work on the reason for destructive behaviour not just cage a dog up.

So no not cruel if used properly - but how many hours out of 24 is deemed acceptable to be in one varies from person to person - Like any tool they can and are misused.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Teddy is happy to sleep in his crate. 

In fact; he was getting all bitey and grouchy a few minutes ago and I knew he was tired. So I took him outside where he obligingly did a wee and a poo and then brought him inside and popped him in his crate (complete with bed, blankets, toys etc) for his 'naptime'. He happily curled up in his bed and promptly went to sleep.

If he wasn't happy - he would be letting us know, believe me. 

Have you ever had a pup OP? Interesting to know the answer! As when I'm doing things that aren't particularly safe for Teddy to 'help' with like cleaning, vacuuming etc it's far safer for Teddy to be safely cosied up in his crate.

And I dread to think what he would do at night if he wasn't crated - he sleeps in there at night (he has a small crate for our bedroom and a separate larger one in the kitchen) and sleeps well. It wouldn't be at all fair to our other dog to leave him to roam loose in the bedroom at night either. She is nearly 9 years old and deserves to have undisturbed sleep - as do we!! 

Teddy only gets 'shut in' very occasionally - but I would be worried sick if he wasn't safely shut in his crate when we were out. I have a baby gate on the kitchen too (it's a large kitchen) but until we're more confident in him being good lol he will stay shut in his crate.

I don't see it as a restriction - I see it as a _protection_. Both crates he has are covered on three sides (not the front) so he feel as safe in them as possible. I love my pup and would never do anything to cause him distress. But for me the crate has been brilliant. I prefer hearing him wake up from his nap and being able to go to him and toilet him etc than finding him awake from his nap and in the middle of doing something unsafe.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Crates are not inherently cruel but, like anything, they should be used sensibly.

We use them to pop the puppy in if we need to leave the room for a couple of minuets and taking him isn't practical.

We also use them for the youngest two when we go out so they don't pester the older dogs. They're happy to go in them, are left with a treat and once that's gone they settle down and sleep.

We don't like to use them at night but that's just personal preference. We've found that new puppies settle better when they're allowed to sleep with us and the other dogs.

We've used crates with all of our dogs at some point and they're all more than happy to go in them. In fact the crate we have set up for the puppy in the front room is in high demand even though nobody else can really fit in it :lol:


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Never used one & TBH can't see that I ever would.

We "dog proof" a room and put a baby gate on - that way the pup / dog still has a safe place where the can't get "into trouble" but has the freedom to move around / stretch their legs etc.


Just as bad as keeping a dog confined to a crate for several hours, is keeping them shut in a boot of a car every weekday  - there's several dogs in my workplace who are left like this day in day out (come freezing winter or baking summer) and there's apparently nothing that can be done about it  - one of them can't even turn around the boot's so small ..... 


Crates - I get the "den" bit but a dog bed can provide just as much as a safe place ..... why does it have to be a crate? If they're not shut in, then what's the difference? (sorry but I just don't get it)


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

No, I don't think it is cruel. Like has been said, they can be abused... but so can most things. 

I crate trained both my dogs, and I think it has done them the world of good. Neither have ever been chewers, this may be in part to them and their nature but how lucky would that be to have two dogs like that? I think a big part of it, is that they never got into the habit of chewing because the crate prevented that. My youngest has been left out of his crate since he was 6 months old, and he hasn't chewed one thing in that time. 

I also think they have their uses in teaching dogs how to settle down and chill, especially when left alone. Again, neither of mine have ever had a problem being left alone. I wouldn't ever consider not have a puppy in a crate when left alone, for their own safety... for me, it is a must. 

I know someone who doesn't like crate training, and I know some people will disagree with this, but this dog is destructive when left and I do believe that a big part of that is due to not being crate trained... and as a result, the dog is now never left alone in the house. If the owners go out, the dogs goes to and some times sits in the car.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

UK Dog Lover said:


> Do you consider crate training to be cruel? I'll be getting my first dog soon and I won't be crate training as I personally would hate to be caged, so it's something I wouldn't do to the dog.
> 
> What's your view on this subject?


I think there are several discrete factors here.

First of all you are comparing your dog's feelings to yours, canids whether they be wild, feral or domestic are generally denning animals ie they like to hole up in a small secure place unlike for example horses who, no matter how many Field Shelters you provide often prefer to stay out in the open.

That is because one is a predator and one is prey.

So anthropomorphising your dog is really not helpful.

You also say this is your first dog thus have you given any thought to how you will keep your dog from accessing inappropriate object and putting them (and himself) at risk and inappropriately toileting?

What will your dog be doing when you are in the toilet, in the shower, cooking, cleaning, ironing, sleeping etc?

Now, not everyone uses crates and prefer not to. Some of us wonder how we did without them.

I like crates because

It keeps belongings safe from my puppy
It keeps my puppy safe from being electrocuted etc and harm from older dog
It means dog phobic visitors feel safe
It is very useful when travelling to friend's homes or hotels
It provides a safe place for cage rest post operatively
It means the dog is used to a cage if it has to go to vet for operation
It means toilet training is simpler

Of course inappropriate use of a crate may be cruel, just as inappropriate use of your feet, voice, hands, collar, lead, food may be cruel.

But if you think they are cruel, nobody is forcing you to use one are they?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

The first time I saw a dog in a crate I was horrified. I still think it is a case of if you want something in a cage, buy a hamster and no, I don't like them one little bit. I can't understand people who use them to stop the dog from chewing, when I haven't noticed anyone crating a cat for similar reasons. They chew as well and rip up the furnishings, but nobody sticks them in a cage.

I think their only proper use is for protection for a puppy from an older dog when you can't supervise, or for a dog recovering from surgery or an illness.


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

McKenzie said:


> You may hate to be caged, but you're not a dog are you?
> 
> Used correctly, crates are dens for dogs, safe places where they can retreat to. Many dogs will actually choose to go into their crates, they're not just places where the dog is forced to go. I crated my dog until very recently and she loved it because that's where she got her treats.
> 
> What's more they're an invaluable way to keep a puppy safe from themselves - you'll be surprised how much trouble a puppy can get up to, even in a room that you 'think' has been puppy-proofed. I'd rather crate my puppy than take it to the vet to remove an obstruction because it ate the skirting boards.


It shouldn't be eating the skirting boards either. LOL Crates are ok if used like dens, open not shut and covered over to provide a draught free and prIvate place to sleep or get away from the rest of the family. They should never be used to put dogs away in for up to 10 hours at a time and never be used for "punishment."

When my Alfie was a puppy, he used to torment my friends dog CHARLIE unmercifully , so he use to run into the crate and we would shut him in so he could get a reprieve from sharp puppy teeth.

This is Charlie inside with Alfie lookin in.:laugh:


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> Crates - I get the "den" bit but a dog bed can provide just as much as a safe place ..... why does it have to be a crate? If they're not shut in, then what's the difference? (sorry but I just don't get it)


I think most people put some sort of blanket or cover on the crate so it's a dark covered area, unlike a dog bed.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

How do you puppy proof a room if they literally chew everything? Or is it jut mine that does that?


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Something else that should IMO be considered, is that some dogs who have not been crate trained, will not cope being confined... and sometimes that is a must. If a dog needs to stay at the vets, or is injured to the point where they need cage rest. Some dogs who are not used to be crated will find that an extra stress, so even if people don't want to use a crate all the time, I still think it is a good thing for dogs to be used to being in a confined space such as a crate.


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## AmberNero (Jun 6, 2010)

We crate foster dogs when we have them, so they can have the company of my dogs but they are safe from mine and mine are safe from them when we pop out, an unknown dog is a stranger after all and I'd never want to take the risk of a fight! We have recently started crating Pixie during meals, as she is on a strict diet and will madly try to get to my other dogs food and scout around afterwards for leftovers.

I think it's a common misperception that crates are cruel, people just need to look into it and see if it's for them- and it might not be, but crates aren't inherently cruel unless they are misused.


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## kaz25 (Aug 9, 2011)

tabulahrasa said:


> How do you puppy proof a room if they literally chew everything? Or is it jut mine that does that?


Nope, mine did it too. Nom nom sofas are tasty


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

UK Dog Lover said:


> Do you consider crate training to be cruel? I'll be getting my first dog soon and I won't be crate training as I personally would hate to be caged, so it's something I wouldn't do to the dog.
> 
> What's your view on this subject?


Crate training isn't cruel. But crate abuse is very cruel. It's just an object, it's how you use it that determines the effect that it has on the dog - positive or negative.

Naomi


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

tabulahrasa said:


> How do you puppy proof a room if they literally chew everything? Or is it jut mine that does that?


Indeed. Teddy is pretty good so far but I look at the kitchen and see possible dangers such as the corner walls where the wallpaper could well be tempting, possible traps where he might try and squeeze between appliances and so I could go on! The idea is that very soon Teddy will be given the crate plus the kitchen - but not whilst he is still so small and we don't 'trust' him with possible nommy things.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

UK Dog Lover said:


> Do you consider crate training to be cruel? I'll be getting my first dog soon and *I won't be crate training as I personally would hate to be caged,* so it's something I wouldn't do to the dog.
> 
> What's your view on this subject?


I wouldn't eat horse **** off a bridleway or green tripe off the kitchen floor & you wouldn't catch me licking my privates, even if I _could_. All things which turn my stomach but my dogs thoroughly enjoy so I don't see how your analogy stands up to scrutiny 

I think you'll find when you were a baby and a danger to yourself if left alone in your environment you were put in a cot with bars you couldn't escape from, which much resembles a puppy crate and is no different to crate training a puppy. A lot of human children are also put in play pens.

Perhaps when your puppy has eaten half your house, endangered it's life and pooped on your best furniture you might change your mind.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> The first time I saw a dog in a crate I was horrified. *I still think it is a case of if you want something in a cage, buy a hamster* and no, I don't like them one little bit. I can't understand people who use them to stop the dog from chewing, when I haven't noticed anyone crating a cat for similar reasons. They chew as well and rip up the furnishings, but nobody sticks them in a cage.
> 
> I think their only proper use is for protection for a puppy from an older dog when you can't supervise, or for a dog recovering from surgery or an illness.


I actually find the line in bold quite offensive. I have crate trained two of my dogs, and I wouldn't do it any other way. However, they are only crate trained as puppies, and then just every so often using the crate so they remain familiar with it. They are certainly not caged like a hamster, they far from live in the cage... a couple hours here and there is hardly wanting a caged animal.

I cannot speak about cats, because I have never had one. But, I do not think it is sheer luck and coincidence that neither of mine have chewed things they shouldn't. They have never been able to because of the crate, and therefore have never developed a habit of chewing. Not everyone is in a position to puppy proof a room, and for some puppies it is near impossible to do so. Again, I don't know much about cats, them chewing and the reasons behind it, but most dogs will be destructive due to stress of being left, I don't imagine a cat has the same reasons since they are much more independent animals, and I would imagine don't have the same anxiety to be left. Like I said though, I am not cat expert so that is just what I would gather to be the case, I am more than willing to be corrected though.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

See it's not even that I'm worried about the belongings, it's him that he'd destroy, lol... he really likes wires, I've also had to stop him chewing things like - the tumble dryer (I mean why would that look good to nibble?) the door surround to the back door, the living room skirting board.

I dread to think what he'd try when I'm not there to redirect him.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

My three are crate trained and I think I am one of these people who may be classes as abusing them but it wasn't and isn't done purposefully, they like it in there.
Lexi can and was left out of her crate all the time, but she is a very nervous dog and will actually go and shut herself in her crate when upset, its her safe haven and she loves it in there.
Bos well he nearly blew my house up turning the gas on my hob on when I was out so he is crated for his (an my) safety).
Nala is still a pup and once she is trustworthy her and Lexi will be allowed out at all times, but their crates will still be their beds and I'll probably still shut them in on a night as they feel safe and secure that way.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Oh and I've got cats, they've never chewed things, scratched, climbed and generally attacked, but no chewing.

So yeah they damage things, but they're not in any danger.


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## kaz25 (Aug 9, 2011)

tabulahrasa said:


> See it's not even that I'm worried about the belongings, it's him that he'd destroy, lol... he really likes wires, I've also had to stop him chewing things like - the tumble dryer (I mean why would that look good to nibble?) the door surround to the back door, the living room skirting board.
> 
> *I dread to think what he'd try when I'm not there to redirect him.*


I don't understand how you redirect a dog that chews its own toys...what are you meant to redirect them on to??


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Im not a huge fan of them really and are easily over used without people realising it. Like on another thread it is mentioned sixteen hours a day is excessive but if you think the dog doesnt mind it seems fine.

I don't understand the whole mentality of it helping with toilet training as no one ever used to use cages and dogs were always house trained.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> The first time I saw a dog in a crate I was horrified. I still think it is a case of if you want something in a cage, buy a hamster and no, I don't like them one little bit. I can't understand people who use them to stop the dog from chewing, when I haven't noticed anyone crating a cat for similar reasons. They chew as well and rip up the furnishings, but nobody sticks them in a cage.
> 
> I think their only proper use is for protection for a puppy from an older dog when you can't supervise, or for a dog recovering from surgery or an illness.


I am not sure what sort of cats you have owned, but none of my many cats past or present and ever chewed anything. At worst they sharpen their claws on the furniture but I have never heard of a cat chewing things?

What would you suggest to confine a dog that was consistently chewing through electrical wires, furniture, door frames, skirting boards, etc? would you just have to wait until they choked on something, electrocuted themselves or got an intestinal obstruction?


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I don't know, toys aren't for chewing, they're for running about with shaking them and for throwing into the floor and pouncing on...clearly they're not as much fun to chew as appliances, lol.

He does chew his stag bars and things like that though, after he's tried other things.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

Biggles is the first dog I crate trained...

Charlie came crate trained by his previous owner - he was used to being locked in at night and would even go in at bedtime and shut the door behind him and whine until you locked it! now he sleeps on my bed with Biggs though 

during the day they'll both go in the crate to sleep or on the sofa - they have the choice... they are only ever shut in there when we are bringing in shopping from a delivery/when we go out and they are left (so the cats get peace) or when my niece and nephew first arrive...

They can open doors so I can't shut them in a room while I go out and am in a rented house - can't risk them breaking a door if I fit a bolt to lock them in the lounge that way to make them leave the cats alone while we're out... am never gone more than 2-3 hours without them as I only don't take them with me if it's a medical appointment.

(btw they won't hurt the cats - it's just young dogs, young cats, play gets rough then chaos happens and the cats lose tempers and claws come out - I worry the cats will hurt the dogs)

I *do* use the crate as a time out tool and the funniest thing is watching Biggles when he *knows* he's getting over tired, stroppy and wound up - he will storm into the crate, shut the door.... lie down for 1-2 mins (my 'time out limit) and then let himself back out in a better mood - he knows it's not so much a 'punishment' as much as a cue to calm down and focus lol - he's in there at the moment sprawled on his back and snoring


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

I think crates are a good option  

Cheddar was crated as a puppy and was fine at night, he was never keen during the day, even for 5 mins... 

This got worse when he was at the eye hospital.

Anyway, recently he is going there an awful lot... At the vets they say he is beautifully behaved and i have put him closed in for the odd 15 mins in the day and he is now fine.

The crate will stay and will use for all future dogs, you never know when they have to go in one


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I don't understand the whole mentality of it helping with toilet training as no one ever used to use cages and dogs were always house trained.


Yes I don't understand the whole mentality of

vacuum cleaners
Washing machines
dishwashers
tumble dryers
fridges
freezers
cars
televisions
radios
laptops
tablets
phones

as no one ever USED to have these but they still managed to clean the house, wash up, wash clothes, keep food, travel, amuse themselves etc.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Yes I don't understand the whole mentality of
> 
> vacuum cleaners
> Washing machines
> ...


Yep, exactly. If it speeds up the process and makes life easier for all concerned surely that is a good thing. The 'old' way is rarely the best way and the use of crates has helped save a lot of dogs.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

My view is that crates are a fantastic tool when used correctly and can be awful when abused.

I used one for Kilo and use one now for Rudi for a few reasons:

- To keep him safe when not directly supervised
- To separate him from Kilo when not directly supervised
- As his space that he can retreat to, the same as Kilo can retreat to his bed
- So that he is used to one should he ever need to go to the vet overnight or similar

Kilo still chose to sleep in his crate even when the door was left open until it was taken away; Rudi goes into his when the door is open quite a lot although he has the option of the floor or sofa too.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Yes I don't understand the whole mentality of
> 
> vacuum cleaners
> Washing machines
> ...


Very funny.

However none of those involve putting animals in cages.

How do they help so much to toilet train? All our dogs were done by two weeks coming home, so what difference would a crate make? Dogs learn when they learn, a cage would have little difference.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

No, I don't think crate training is necessarily cruel. I don't agree with dogs being shut in a crate all day while their owners work and then again overnight, I think that's excessive and unfair to the dog. 

People go on about puppy proofing a room but I could leave my last dog in a completely empty room and he'd find something to chew. Usually the floor or the door frame. Rupert was still being crated at 9 years old because he would still chew if nobody was there to stop him. It wasn't anxiety, he'd simply learned that he could have a good old chew on whatever he wanted without being stopped when nobody was there.


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

Brambles crate has been re assembled since just before Christmas, its his retreat from the grandchildren when he's had enough. He loves it its covered with a heavy blanket and he has everything he needs in there. Its never closed on him though.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> The first time I saw a dog in a crate I was horrified. * I still think it is a case of if you want something in a cage, buy a hamster* and no, I don't like them one little bit. I can't understand people who use them to stop the dog from chewing, when I haven't noticed anyone crating a cat for similar reasons. They chew as well and rip up the furnishings, but nobody sticks them in a cage.
> 
> I think their only proper use is for protection for a puppy from an older dog when you can't supervise, or for a dog recovering from surgery or an illness.


I wouldn't say that Rudi is suffering from neglect or abuse, nor Kilo before him. It's pretty offensive to me that you compare their lives to that of an animal who is caged all the time and doesn't require nearly the interaction that dogs do. I can assure you that Kilo got and Rudi gets an immense amount of stimulation, interaction and time out of his crate. He is in there at night and when he cannot be supervised.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Dogless said:


> My view is that crates are a fantastic tool when used correctly and can be awful when abused.
> 
> I used one for Kilo and use one now for Rudi for a few reasons:
> 
> ...


Is Kilo too big now ? That's the only reason Dief's went.. he just got too big and we already had an extra large.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Heres my pups in their favourite place, i had never put them in the crate they always used to go in there themselves 
First day i put it up they were in there playing

























And it even provided Dad with somewhere to escape from them


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## lipsthefish (Mar 17, 2012)

When we had big dogs I was one of those 'Oh my God! Why would anyone use a crate?!!' people 

Then we got Alfie as a teeny weeny puppy :yikes: he walked through the bars of the baby gates, he got in gaps I didn't even know were there, he wasn't a chewer but he was a 'run - bite - run away' puppy, the worst being my plugged in laptop cable. We got him a crate and have never looked back, he's almost 4 now and his crate is in the same place, the door is left open and he goes in when he wants, the majority of the time he is curled up on the couch but if he wants some peace from the other dogs he goes and curls up in there (the other 2 are not allowed in his crate, or he theirs) 

Jack was crate trained when he came here in the same way as Alfie, it had been used as a safety measure when he was tiny and now it's his space when he wants to go in. 

Angel again is the same, the crates saved my sanity when they were puppies.

We have a crate in the bedroom (the bloody thing won't fold up so it was stuffed in the corner) Jack now will only sleep in there, he's welcome on the bed at any time but he chooses to go in there, the door is left open but he still stays in there. When we go to bed he will come on the bed for a snuggle but after about 10 minutes he will hop off and go into his den. I'd like to think that we are using the crates in the correct way because the dogs choose to go in them for a chill out, the only time we put them in there as our choice is if we have visitors who are scared or if the babies come to visit and I want the dogs nice and calm before they greet them.


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

OMG they are gorgeous little doggies :001_wub:


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

And theres a vast difference between happy dogs who willingly go into a crate than a dog forced to go in. As other posters have said its like their own private space or den. I only paid £10 for mine it was owned by a guy with 2 cockers. Its big but there is a double duvet in there Brambles snuggles down on. He looks so cosy. :001_wub:


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Nataliee - what gorgeously cute pups :001_wub:

I think crates are brilliant. Indie went in hers overnight and if we went out during the day for a couple of hours. She never chewed anything dangerous and was perfectly happy. Within a month she was only in it overnight and a short time later we stopped shutting the door at night too. Indie often took her toys in with her and would happily play inside even though she didn't have to.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

oh forgot to mention...

my cats are crate trained - Indy was crate trained as it kept him safe from the dogs when unsupervised when he was a kitten and too daft to not annoy my elderly dogs with short tempers...

he's now 4, hasn't had to be crated (unless you count showing) since he was 10 weeks old and here he is the other week in Biggles' crate










again he associates it with 'bed' and 'safety'


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I didn't know that _anyone_ used crates up until I came on here. I had just never seen them used before by anyone that I knew. I had seen them in Pets at Home or Petsmart as it used to be called but never thought they were particularly mainstream. I thought people used them for their cars or something like that!

Personally, I would not have one and I do find it hard to get past the "dog in a cage" thing- though I accept this is an issue in my own mind rather than anything actually wrong with crates per say. Obviously many people find them very helpful and their dogs feel comfortable using them.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

diefenbaker said:


> Is Kilo too big now ? That's the only reason Dief's went.. he just got too big and we already had an extra large.


He got too big, plus we lived in a tiny house and the crate was in the way really . He now has his 'house' under the stairs and seems to like having that to retreat to.


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## penguin (Jan 2, 2013)

I had never crated a dog before and didn't like the idea of it. I then got an 8 month old dog in March from a family who no longer wanted him. He started to destroy everything when he was left alone. We made the hard decision to buy a crate and he absolutely loves it. Goes straight in when asked and we made it into his den. We bought a massive one, I could live in it!!


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## PinkEars (Jun 4, 2010)

Crate training made toilet training easier, and leaving a puppy safer. Doesnt matter how much you puppy safe an area they are likely to find something to chew on. You might not mind if your pup chews furniture, walls etc but they could choke on something or atleast get a bad tummy. You have to build up to leaving them in a crate but Walt now is perfectly happy as he sees it as a den. Being able to cover it up makes it all cosy and dark and he loves it. I just say off to bed now Woo and he tottles off! When i leave him at home if its for short periods i will leave him out but if for a couple of hours i will crate him as he has a habit of chewing and i know all he is doing is sleeping in his cosy bed rather than the sofa!

Also Lola was never a destroyer but she was a very stressed out pooch when left alone. I didnt crate train her till she was about 18months old and its the best thing i ever did! She loooovvves her crate and feels safe so she now just jumps in when you leave instead of running to the door because she didnt want to be left alone. Its her safe den, if there are fireworks going she gets in and she is not scared.


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## Dizzy Grace (May 2, 2012)

metaldog said:


> Perhaps when your puppy has eaten half your house, endangered it's life and pooped on your best furniture you might change your mind.


No that's when they give it up, because it doesn't fit into their world view.

Would like to hear that the OP has done extensive research and made a logical and sensible conclusion as to why they consider crate training a puppy cruel rather than just because they wouldn't like it.

Like everyone else has said it's just a tool which when used properly can have a positive impact on a dog and also has a number of practical uses, travelling, safety and is excellent for foster dogs (having their safe place) when they need to make a transition to other households.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lozzibear said:


> I actually find the line in bold quite offensive. I have crate trained two of my dogs, and I wouldn't do it any other way. However, they are only crate trained as puppies, and then just every so often using the crate so they remain familiar with it. They are certainly not caged like a hamster, they far from live in the cage... a couple hours here and there is hardly wanting a caged animal.
> 
> I cannot speak about cats, because I have never had one. But, I do not think it is sheer luck and coincidence that neither of mine have chewed things they shouldn't. They have never been able to because of the crate, and therefore have never developed a habit of chewing. Not everyone is in a position to puppy proof a room, and for some puppies it is near impossible to do so. Again, I don't know much about cats, them chewing and the reasons behind it, but most dogs will be destructive due to stress of being left, I don't imagine a cat has the same reasons since they are much more independent animals, and I would imagine don't have the same anxiety to be left. Like I said though, I am not cat expert so that is just what I would gather to be the case, I am more than willing to be corrected though.


My goodness, I thought this thread was about people's opinions on the use of crates, yet I can't give my opinion without someone taking offence. You may find my opinion on crates offensive, while I might find your opinion of putting your dogs in one offensive, but I don't dispute your right to an opinion do I?



labradrk said:


> I am not sure what sort of cats you have owned, but none of my many cats past or present and ever chewed anything. At worst they sharpen their claws on the furniture but I have never heard of a cat chewing things?
> 
> What would you suggest to confine a dog that was consistently chewing through electrical wires, furniture, door frames, skirting boards, etc? would you just have to wait until they choked on something, electrocuted themselves or got an intestinal obstruction?


How do you imagine dogs avoided all these things before someone invented crates? And one of my cats ate the bottom half of the christmas tree, so yes cats do chew things.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> My goodness, I thought this thread was about people's opinions on the use of crates, yet I can't give my opinion without someone taking offence. You may find my opinion on crates offensive, while I might find your opinion of putting your dogs in one offensive, but I don't dispute your right to an opinion do I?


Please tell me where I said you do not have a right to an opinion? I am, however, allowed to disagree with your opinion... especially when you suggest that those of us who crate our dogs are somehow cruel, or lock them in a cage 24/7 and suggest we own hamsters instead! Regardless of whether you are entitled to an opinion, I am allowed to be offended by such a remark and respond as such.

I have no doubt that if I said something to you or about something you do, in which you found offensive, you would not hesitate to respond. I would expect no less from anyone.


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

jenniferx said:


> I didn't know that _anyone_ used crates up until I came on here. I had just never seen them used before by anyone that I knew. I had seen them in Pets at Home or Petsmart as it used to be called but never thought they were particularly mainstream. I thought people used them for their cars or something like that!
> 
> Personally, I would not have one and I do find it hard to get past the "dog in a cage" thing- though I accept this is an issue in my own mind rather than anything actually wrong with crates per say. Obviously many people find them very helpful and their dogs feel comfortable using them.


Is the question here, overall, about going out to work all day amd leaving your dog unsupervised and in danger of chewing your house down, or is it about containing a dog within a crate to protect your dog. ?

I remember I was fortunate enough when I had my first dog to stay home for the main part of the day, because my husband luckily had his own business and I worked from home, and was on hand to chastise my puppy when he erred and did wrong. He still had long walks in the morning and evening by either one of us.

Nowadays with the need for sole or both partners to work, it has become a good idea to house your dog/dogs in crate/crates, all day in order to protect yourdog/home from disaster. Some people wrongly believe that by housing a dog in a crate all day solves all these problems, but unfortunately a dog still needs walking, mental stimulation, whether someone is at home all day or not, or by yourself or a dog walker.

Whilst crating solves lots of problems and issues as already addressed, and as we are all very diverse in our work and home lives, the decision is a very personal one like castrating/spaying and the decision to use or not to use a crate lies hugely in what we believe to be the right/wrong thing to do, it ultimately has to lie with each and every one of us and what suits our pets to keep them safe when we are not there to supervise them.


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## PinkEars (Jun 4, 2010)

tabulahrasa said:


> Oh and I've got cats, they've never chewed things, scratched, climbed and generally attacked, but no chewing.
> 
> So yeah they damage things, but they're not in any danger.


I agree with this they will scratch things but ive never had a cat that chews things. We always shut our lounge when we go out because you learn what they will wreck. They love the sofa material and claw at it. They do have a sofa chair in their room though that is clawed to bits because we got it on freecycle and were happy for them to wreck it. The dog on the other hand if he felt insecure when we were out he would start chewing. Sometimes even when ive left him in the lounge i have come down to chewed tree decorations etc.

We have started when he is worn out from the dog walker leaving him in the kitchen but he mainly stays in his crate anyway. He is always in there when we return fast asleep. In fact the dog walker put him in his cage and covered with a blanket but didnt shut the door and he didnt move until i got home 3hours later!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've got a visitor here for a few weeks, an entire boy whose mum is in season, and it just makes life easier if his owner can find someone she trusts where he can *fit in*. He's met my two youngst bitches before, but not my older two, and he's bound to ruffle a few feathers. I have crates and a pen set out in m dog room and all my dogs know when I go out, they go to bed in their crate, and when I get back, they are out and we go out for at least one good free run at the moment. 

Having had a bitch who managed to get hold of several boxed light bulbs and shatter them all across the hall way floor, and they were supposedly out of the way. She also chewed anything she could and still does, so she's crated for her own safety. I wouldn't leave strange dogs loose either, so they will be crated while we're asleep, or when we're out. The longest time my dogs are crated is overnight when we're asleep. 

It's not cruel, it's practical, people will be saying cots are cruel next!


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

Dizzy Grace said:


> Would like to hear that the OP has done extensive research and made a logical and sensible conclusion as to why they consider crate training a puppy cruel rather than just because they wouldn't like it.


Agreed. Haven't seen too many good arguments against correctly-used crates other than emotionally-fuelled ones.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

metaldog said:


> You wouldn't catch me licking my privates, even if I _could_.


I'm sorry could you clarify for me. Does this mean you would not do it or you would not get "caught" doing it ?


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## kaz25 (Aug 9, 2011)

Can anyone explain how a crate helps with house training? Having never had a puppy before and hopefully getting one in a few months I am interested in how it works. I am guessing the crate is seen as their bed so they won't mess in there?


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

My dogs love a crate, recently i had to get out my small crate for 1 of my dogs who was recovering from an operation, Charlie my Lurcher got in it 1 day then Jack who had the op got in with him, LOL LOL


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Here are some links to crate training advice from qualified, reputable trainers, behaviourists and organisations.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/system/files/private/Advice_Sheet_4_-_Using_an_indoor_kennel.pdf

http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/CrateTraining_000.pdf
Crate Training « Ahimsa Dog Blog
Keeping the Holiday Peace: How to Crate Train Your Dog | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
ClickerSolutions Training Articles --
ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Crate Training


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

kaz25 said:


> Can anyone explain how a crate helps with house training? Having never had a puppy before and hopefully getting one in a few months I am interested in how it works. I am guessing the crate is seen as their bed so they won't mess in there?


Yes I think this is it. I didn't do this but read about it. It's supposed to accelerate toilet training. They won't go where they sleep. This is one of the reasons you're meant to block off part of the crate if it's too large to begin with. So in the house they're always in the crate and so don't have a chance to make a mistake. Obviously there needs to be frequent trips from crate to garden. It wouldn't have worked for me but I can see how it could work for some people.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> Agreed. Haven't seen too many good arguments against correctly-used crates other than emotionally-fuelled ones.


As someone who isn't a fan of crates I don't see any problems when used correctly.

Just like any tool - for instance I use a flexi every morning by roads lol eeek

MY issue is when they are used incorrectly. There's people at my work doing longer hours than me who leave there dog 9 hours a day in a crate because 'they eat the house'  If this was Milie I would be getting dog walker in - getting up earlier on work mornings for a longer walk etc

My only issue us when they are used as the solution instead of addressing the reason behind behaviours.

I would certainly never have one in my living room :yikes: but would of course be open to using one if dog proofing the kitchen was still not suitable.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

I think it's how they are used. Zimba was crate trained as a pup, he was never in it for more than three hours, it was peace of mind he wasn't going to get into danger. We have an open plan kitchen/diner/ family room so difficult to puppy proof.

He used I until he was about 9 months, then we took the plunge and left him loose. He was fine, crate went, no harm done.

I think one advantage is if your dog has to be crated due to injury they are used to a crate. Our neighbours dog had to have two operations which required crate rest, which was much easier as she was used to the crate.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> As someone who isn't a fan of crates I don't see any problems when used correctly.
> 
> Just like any tool - for instance I use a flexi every morning by roads lol eeek
> 
> ...


Totally agree. Let's face it, idiot owners will be idiot owners no matter what tools they have available to them. Some will shut them in crates all day, some will leave them outside in freezing conditions, some will let them wander the neighbourhood (yes I'm referring to several owners on my street!), some will let them run riot around other dogs.

Of course not everyone has to want to use a crate - I don't any more. But claiming that they won't use one because they wouldn't like to be in a crate, or because only hamsters belong in cages, just doesn't wear with me. At least do the research and come to an informed decision.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

My dogs are crated when I'm in bed, at my meal times or when I'm out of the house (I work from home so I rarely go out)

They love their crate, usually when they are tired they will go and sleep in their crate even though they could sleep anywhere downstairs including the settee. They also take treats into their crate! Just goes to show that dogs like their crate when used in the right way, if my dogs didn't like it they wouldn't choose to eat/sleep in it.


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## Sarahferret (Apr 25, 2012)

I actually think its quite important to crate train a pup, even if you don't plan on 'caging' your dog. There are times when a dog has to be caged, so if they are comfortable with being in one already they won't get distressed.

When my whippet had an injury, she had to be on strict rest. I didn't crate her 24/7 but she was crated at all times I couldn't supervise her fully to ensure she stayed still. Dogs are also caged during any vet stays.


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## PinkEars (Jun 4, 2010)

diefenbaker said:


> Yes I think this is it. I didn't do this but read about it. It's supposed to accelerate toilet training. They won't go where they sleep. This is one of the reasons you're meant to block off part of the crate if it's too large to begin with. So in the house they're always in the crate and so don't have a chance to make a mistake. Obviously there needs to be frequent trips from crate to garden. It wouldn't have worked for me but I can see how it could work for some people.


They are not always in the crate when in the house. Only if you can't watch them do they go in the crate or if you are trying to build up their time left alone. Its not only good for toilet training but also good for separation anxiety. I found it was best for overnight toilet training as they didnt want to go in the bed where they were sleeping. I used to set the alarm every couple of hours through the night to let him out and extend each night by 30mins within 10 days he was going through the night no problems. During the day i would just keep popping him in when he was sleeping or if i couldnt watch him. When he was out of the crate i watched him like a hawk to see if there was any toileting signs and take him out after eat, sleep, drink play and every hour anyway. You can't watch them all the time and if you can't watch them you might miss a time when they are sniffing and toileting in the house. Therefore if you pop them in the crate when you can't watch them you are more likely to have fewer accidents. The older he got the better we were a seeing the signs, the better he got at telling us he needed to go out and the less time he needed to be in the crate.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Most people I've met in my day to day life who object to crate training have little or no idea of what crating actually is. They just assume it is locking a dog up for no reason or just because you can't be bothered with it.
Anyone who has actually used a crate properly, and seen the benefits, understands that these are absolutely not cruel.

And hey, believe it or not, I used to be anti crate. I remember having a blazing row with someone in america about it, how it was wrong to lock a dog up, but I had absolutely no idea what I was talking about, and I think back now and cringe at how irritating my ignorant views must have been. I'd never owned a dog, had no idea about the logics of crate training, I just saw a cage and instantly thought 'cruel', as Im sure so many do before they educate themselves. I didn't bother doing much more research than that.

I will never have a dog, certainly not a puppy, without a crate. Ever.
Crating is vital, to me. Dresden is a year old, and still crated whenever I cannot be there to supervise him, because being the kind of dog that he is, he cannot really amuse himself without constant supervision. 
Sometimes, if he is really engrossed in a kong, I can leave him be for a few minutes, but generally.....no.
He would destroy the house and, more importantly, probably do himself an injury. 
To me, if the competition is between crating, or having a puppy with a blockage from eating something it shouldn't, the choice is easy. 
Even if you opt to put the puppy in a separate room instead of a crate, and you clear this room of anything the pup could chew, there are still walls in this room, still floors, still skirting boards, and I've seen pups eat all of those!
I've also worked in vet nursing and seen my fair share of puppies come in with foreign bodies who need surgery. There was one lab who came in 3 times in a year, once for eating a bobble hat, once for eating a pair of gloves, and once for eating a kitchen sponge. Surgeries all 3 times.

Give me my pup safely in a crate any day of the week.

I am aiming to one day, when Dresden is older, be able to do away with the crate. But at this stage for him? Not a chance. 
He actually loves his crate so much that he won't sleep anywhere else. If I lock it up and leave him out of it, he gets more and more tired, but he can rarely settle. He'll just pace, and then get ratty and badly behaved. But as soon as he is in his crate, he flops down and goes straight to sleep.

With a high energy, high drive pup like mine, I don't know how anyone can NOT have a crate. Even with a whole day of walks, training, mental and physical work, Dresden can still want to be on the go. He isn't good at just 'settling' once he's tired, wthout the crate. 

My friends dobe was 3 before she actually settled down reliably outside of the crate, so Im anticipating similar for Dresden. 

Also, what if the dog ever needs 'cage rest' through an injury? If that ever happens, I know my dog will not be distressed by it, as he loves the crate. But a dog that had never been crated suddenly having to be confined? Rather you than me.

Now, there is a girl I know who has an old tyme bulldog pup. This pup is the laziest dog I've ever known. As soon as shes had one walk, she'll flop down on the sofa and thats it til the evening. I can see why someone with a very mellow pup wouldn't necessarily see a need for a crate. 
But for someone with a pup like mine, on the go all the time, looking for something to do 24/7, who won't settle on his own most of the time, who has such stamina that you can work him all day and he'll still push himself to do more until he gets ratty and naughty, well, the crate is a godsend.

And we've never had any 'foreign body' scares, he has never, ever destroyed anything in the house, ever (because he ever got into that habit, he was always safely crated when he wasn't being watched). 
A crate can be abused, like absolutely any other dog management tool. But used correctly, it is a wonderful thing.
The times Dresden has not had his crate, he gets distressed come sleep time because thats his den, thats where he wants to be.
If there was ever any doubt in my mind about whether crating was ethical or not, I'd not do it. But I've seen nothing but positives to it so far.

As I said, when older, Im hoping the crate can go. But right now? You'd have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lilylass said:


> Never used one & TBH can't see that I ever would.
> 
> Just as bad as keeping a dog confined to a crate for several hours, is keeping them shut in a boot of a car every weekday  - there's several dogs in my workplace who are left like this day in day out (come freezing winter or baking summer) and there's apparently nothing that can be done about it  - one of them can't even turn around the boot's so small .....
> )


I am not against dogs being kept in the car but there is something you can do about it . It seems to be the one bit of dog welfare that police and RSPCA will act on for some reason. We had a case near me, at a car boot sale. Someone left 3 dogs in the car in the car park and someone called the police! Two police cars were out within minutes. It was only luck my dogs were not in our car in the same car park or I suppose I would have been in trouble too.



emmaviolet said:


> Im not a huge fan of them really and are easily over used without people realising it. Like on another thread it is mentioned sixteen hours a day is excessive but if you think the dog doesnt mind it seems fine.
> 
> I don't understand the whole mentality of it helping with toilet training as no one ever used to use cages and dogs were always house trained.


I do agree they are not at all essential for toilet training. I have had numerous pups over the years and have cleared up after them every morning. Imagine my surprise when I bought a pup that was crate trained and decided to carry on with it - and I never had a single accident to clear up at night. The next puppy went in a crate and same result. I dont think I would ever have tried it if the pup had not already been crate trained but I am so glad I did. I also used it when the pup was too young to come out with the horses so I had a safe place to leave her every morning for a couple of hours and again no accidents.

Newfiesmum, I think your dogs are too big to crate but cut some slack for those that use them properly and find an advantage to it.
To those that shut them up all day, why have a dog - you are right, they are not animals that should be caged for hours at a time.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Terence is crated. 
I crate him when I leave the house for acouple of hours. He also goes in there when I can sense he is tired but won't settle for whatever reason (it's usually the 2-year old running about and Terence wants to check Maxi is okay, so drags himself around behind him, bless).
The crate is Terence's "safe place", where he feels comfortable. He has actually just taken himself off to the crate to bed down for the night. It makes no difference to Terence if we leave the door open or not, the crate is where he sleeps. Even if we leave him asleep on the sofa in the evening, in the mornings he is always in his crate.

I find some of the arguments on here quite tedious to be honest. Most of the things that go on with my dogs, I wouldn't particularly enjoy myself. I wouldn't want to eat raw chicken, go out on a lead or lick my own bum for hours on end, yet Terence loves all those things. 
So for someone to say, that they wouldn't enjoy being in a crate, so their dogs can't enjoy it is a pretty poor argument.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I am not against dogs being kept in the car but there is something you can do about it . It seems to be the one bit of dog welfare that police and RSPCA will act on for some reason. We had a case near me, at a car boot sale. Someone left 3 dogs in the car in the car park and someone called the police! Two police cars were out within minutes. It was only luck my dogs were not in our car in the same car park or I suppose I would have been in trouble too.
> 
> I do agree they are not at all essential for toilet training. I have had numerous pups over the years and have cleared up after them every morning. Imagine my surprise when I bought a pup that was crate trained and decided to carry on with it - and I never had a single accident to clear up at night. The next puppy went in a crate and same result. I dont think I would ever have tried it if the pup had not already been crate trained but I am so glad I did. I also used it when the pup was too young to come out with the horses so I had a safe place to leave her every morning for a couple of hours and again no accidents.
> 
> ...


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I do agree they are not at all essential for toilet training. I have had numerous pups over the years and have cleared up after them every morning. Imagine my surprise when I bought a pup that was crate trained and decided to carry on with it - and I never had a single accident to clear up at night. The next puppy went in a crate and same result. I dont think I would ever have tried it if the pup had not already been crate trained but I am so glad I did. I also used it when the pup was too young to come out with the horses so I had a safe place to leave her every morning for a couple of hours and again no accidents.
> 
> Newfiesmum, I think your dogs are too big to crate but cut some slack for those that use them properly and find an advantage to it.
> To those that shut them up all day, why have a dog - you are right, they are not animals that should be caged for hours at a time.


For some reason eveny pups have held it over night. Take Alfie the first overnight he did wee on his puppy pad and then the next day he held it till morning.

Agree totally about the dogs in them all day, everyday. It is abuse of the situation.

I think they are good for those who use them correctly but not those who shut a dog in one for the best part of the day.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I've just called out to Ness (who's put herself to bed in her den(crate)) to ask her, and her muffled response was 'no'. 

She's not locked in nowadays, and hasn't been for a long while, but seriously, if it had upset her, do you think she would voluntarily put herself to bed in it now? 

It's always been her refuge.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> if it had upset her, do you think she would voluntarily put herself to bed in it now?


Agreed.
Sometimes I'll open the crate to let Dresden out, and he doesn't even want to get up or come out, and will just look at me like 'nah, comfy, maybe later!' 
I would certainly know all about it if my dog didn't want to be in there!


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Having read this thread earlier I was rather amused that while we were eating this evening we had one dog and one puppy squished up in the crate and one dog sitting on top of it :lol: 

Sadly I didn't manage to get a photo :thumbdown:


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I think there is a huge difference between having a crate set up as a cosy den, with the door open that dogs love to snuggle into (mine included) - or dogs trained to like their crate with sensible owners who use it as a training tool ... and those who see it as a magic fix all, and who shut their dogs up in it without any training or stimulation and leave them there for hours. 

I seem to hear of alot of people who hear of the magic of crates, get one and shut their dog in, and expect them to be happy just like that - without any getting them used to it.

Personally I don't mind the principle but I hate the idea of my dogs cooped up when bigger than pups because i feel too guilty and mean .. my crate is 36" so they could sleep in there but no room for anything else and for hours would hate locking them in there.. but I do have a puppy pen which is the equivalent, from when my last dog had a serious spinal accident and had to be contained... worked for the puppy too and due to the size of it he had his bed in there, a feeding area, room to play and if he needed the loo didn't have to do it in his bed - and my house and puppy were safe from eachother. If I didn't have this pen I would have gone old school and contained him in the kitchen.


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## emziewemzie (Jan 5, 2013)

no not at all, i mean no i wouldnt like to be caged up but sometimes its well worth doing, if your getting a puppy that more than likely with chew or get up to some sort of mischief it is a god send lol... i have done this with all my dogs but you have to do it right, get it wrong and that dog will stress out continuously every time he/she is put in there... and iwouldnt use it as punishment as so many people make this dredful mistake and it will blow up in your face if you need them to go in there as and when...
hope this helps x


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

UK Dog Lover said:


> Do you consider crate training to be cruel? I'll be getting my first dog soon and I won't be crate training as I personally would hate to be caged, so it's something I wouldn't do to the dog.
> 
> What's your view on this subject?


If the dog is crate trained properly, with no stress and is perfectly happy and relaxed in one, then personally I dont think it is cruel. On the proviso of course that they are not left in there for long periods or its used as a punishment and for the owners convenience entirely. They can be, introduced and trained in the right way a god send to keep pups safe when you really cant watch them at times.

I must admit that years ago I was of the same opinion, but a friend of mine always used them as she had multi dogs, and in fact if one was crated through illness or injury of whatever, as soon as the crate was vacated the others used to try to get in and take over as their own personal space and beds, which in fact seeing that they actually wanted to go in of their own free will actually changed my mind about it.

Its a good thing anyway, because thats usually how they are kept when they have to stay in the vets for operations and things, so a dog thats pre trained and used to a crate is likely going to be a lot less stressed in there too then one who isnt used to it.


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

I never heard of crates for dogs till I came on here. I can see that properly used they could be a good thing. But I would never use one. When I have to leave Jet, which isn't that often, I 'puppy proof' the room, even though he's not a puppy. 

I guess my dislike of crates goes back to when I was a child and got taken to the zoo. In those days the animals were kept in small cages, not like the roomy enclosures they have now. It used to upset me so much watching them that I just can't stand to see any animal in a cage. The only exception to that is rodents, coz I see it as a way of keeping tiny animals safe.

But from what I have read on here and other places, as long as they are used properly and the dog is happy, that's what matters.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

As so many have said the crate is a tool used properly its a good thing, the problem is they are easy to mismanage and abuse leading to more problems than they solve.

lots of people have explained the positives ..

So let me tell you about a negative.. I used to work for a lady who had one and later two dogs...One for each child !
She hardly ever walked them and the kids would argue about walking the dogs and then go to school leaving the dogs still locked in the crates so I took to walking them myself even though as a home carer Im not allowed to.
I reported them to animal welfare , nothing was done because the crates were adequate size and the dogs had water. 

It was an easy way for this family to forget their responsibilties..
The dogs, a lab and a bouvier mix were left crated maybe 20 hours a day..
Every now and then they would be let out but after being shut in for so long they were hyper at being out and would charge round the room like looneys resulting in the mum screaming 'in your crate ' and the dogs being locked in again,, She just couldnt understand why the dogs wouldnt calm down..
Locked in the crates the dogs never learned any manners, they would steal food from your hand or plate, knock over cups to get at the contents , jump on furniture and people and pull like trains on the lead.
When the lady had to have a stomach op guess what? the dogs were rehomed because they were too much for her to cope with 

So yes a crate can be a good thing, a place to recover after an op , a safe den to hide or sleep in, a safe way to travel, in the wrong hands it can be that torture chamber, a place of isolation.

As with all tools it very much depends on the owner. As crates are a fairly new tool many people dont understand the proper way to use them and that can lead to problems.
Its all a matter of choice but whatever you choose you must have your dogs welfare at heart not your own convienence.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

dorrit said:


> As so many have said the crate is a tool used properly its a good thing, the problem is they are easy to mismanage and abuse leading to more problems than they solve.
> 
> lots of people have explained the positives ..
> 
> ...


The part that I've bolded is absolutely at the heart of the matter to me.

What a sad story dorrit .


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

dorrit said:


> As so many have said the crate is a tool used properly its a good thing, the problem is they are easy to mismanage and abuse leading to more problems than they solve.
> 
> lots of people have explained the positives ..
> 
> ...


Thats an awful example of cage abuse.

The bit highlighted is sadly true.

My Dad started putting Teddy his lhasa in a crate after he suddenly became destructive ripping the carpet up, poor Teddy hated his crate & would go mad trying to get out, i talked my Dad into solving the root of Teds problem, separation anxiety, instead of just dumping him in a cage..he binned the crate & worked on re training Teddy ...Teds as good as gold when hes left now plus he has the freedom of the house!
To put a dog in a crate that hates it & frantically tries to escape it is horrible, how anyone could leave an animal caged which is clearly in such distress is beyond me

.

.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lozzibear said:


> Please tell me where I said you do not have a right to an opinion? I am, however, allowed to disagree with your opinion... especially when you suggest that those of us who crate our dogs are somehow cruel, or lock them in a cage 24/7 and suggest we own hamsters instead! Regardless of whether you are entitled to an opinion, I am allowed to be offended by such a remark and respond as such.
> 
> I have no doubt that if I said something to you or about something you do, in which you found offensive, you would not hesitate to respond. I would expect no less from anyone.


I don't see where I was saying you were being cruel by crating your dogs. All I was saying was that dogs are not an animal that in my opinion should be in a cage of any sort, that is my opinion and I don't see why anyone should take offence at my opinion.

There are lots of things I do with my dogs that some people would not approve of, but they are my dogs and that is what I have always done, so I feel confident enough in my actions not to take offence at other people's opinions on the subject.

Don't see what all the fuss is about.

Yes, Blitz, my dogs are too big to crate, but if they can manage fine without because of their size, I see no reason why any size dog should have to be crated. They are, after all, still dogs.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Yes, Blitz, my dogs are too big to crate, but if they can manage fine without because of their size, I see no reason why any size dog should have to be crated. They are, after all, still dogs.


Just out of curiosity, what would you do with a dog who was chewing holes in your floors, walls etc whenever you left them alone? Not out of anxiety but simply because they liked to chew and preferred those things to any of the toys or chews you left them with. Not just you personally, question is for anyone who says they would never use one.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would you do with a dog who was chewing holes in your floors, walls etc whenever you left them alone? Not out of anxiety but simply because they liked to chew and preferred those things to any of the toys or chews you left them with. Not just you personally, question is for anyone who says they would never use one.


Ferdie did actually chew a big hole in the wall, as well as all the furniture, remotes and mobile phones. What I have always done is to spray the areas with something nasty, chew deterrent is good or mustard. My retriever only ever chewed pine and when he had a go at the staircase, I sprayed it with chew deterrent, he yelped and never touched it again.

Apart from Ferdie, none of my dogs have been major chewers of stationary stuff, only shoes if I was daft enough to leave them out.


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## mollydog07 (May 26, 2012)

when lucy was a pup she had a full kitchen to wander round,her cage was positioned against the door leading into my living room.lucy used her cage for toileting!.....the plastic tray in the cage was through time moved into the hall...then down to front door.by 6 months she was toileting in garden.different take on cage training!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would you do with a dog who was chewing holes in your floors, walls etc whenever you left them alone? Not out of anxiety but simply because they liked to chew and preferred those things to any of the toys or chews you left them with. Not just you personally, question is for anyone who says they would never use one.


I dont have a problem with crates per se, my 1st sibe is crate trained & she loves her crate..though i never shut her in anymore, leaving a dog who doesnt mind being crated for a couple of hours a day is perfectly acceptable imo. What i dont agree with is using them for long periods during the day or even for a short period when a dog is clearly distressed to be in one.

We kept 3 Siberian husky puppies back out of the litter we bred...they were triple the trouble, Very destructive!:yikes: rather then crate them my oh roofed the dog run we already had...its an absolute god send & they can charge around and play till we get home, i'd hate to think of them caged for hours on end, i know a pen isnt an option for everyone..but if it is, its a very good option

.


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## xMaloreyx (Jan 3, 2013)

I have never crate trained a dog, and I used to be against it, as I felt bad when I went on dog forums and people would post how they put their dog in a crate for a couple hours so they could have a break from it, would house them in them all day, and most hardly had any room to move in them. Now, I realize I am just against those people, and not so much crates! While I most likely will never use a crate for any of my dogs (and have raised a puppy without needing to, and plan to again), I am not against them, but am against, as I said above, people who use them like that. Personally, if I did use any kind of enclosure for my dogs / puppies, I would choose an x-pen, so the dogs are secure, but have room to stretch, play, .... move without being cramped in a small area for hours (even though, I'm usually always home, but will be going to school this year, and that's still only a short few hours a day, and the dog(s) will be out at all times when I am home).


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

A crate is not cruel people sometimes are.

Tink loved her crate as a puppy a safe warm cosy place she chose to go into.

Being a smaller dog when she was spayed we were allowed to drop off her crate and she was put into straight into for recovery and came around in her familiar safe little den.

It has been handy when staying with family and friends giving her a little chill out zone for her to choose to go into when she's had enough of excited puppies of both the canine and human varieties.

When she was attacked and she was stitched up with a drain, It meant I could have a shower without worrying about her leaping around and ripping her stitches. 

Like all tools in the right hands can be a positive thing in the wrong ones a terrible thing.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't see where I was saying you were being cruel by crating your dogs. All I was saying was that dogs are not an animal that in my opinion should be in a cage of any sort, that is my opinion and I don't see why anyone should take offence at my opinion.
> 
> There are lots of things I do with my dogs that some people would not approve of, but they are my dogs and that is what I have always done, so I feel confident enough in my actions not to take offence at other people's opinions on the subject.
> 
> Don't see what all the fuss is about.


You said that people who crated their dogs should have hamsters instead of dogs... yes, I find that very offensive! It may be your opinion, but when you post on a public forum, you have to expect that posting such a statement will have people defending their decision.

I don't see why a dog shouldn't be caged, but other animals should be... like has already been said, dogs like the 'den' feel to crates. I would much prefer to keep my dog in a crate, and KNOW he is safe, rather than run the risk of him chewing something that potentially could kill him. It is no question for me, and not a risk I would take with a young puppy. It isn't simply by choice, for my convenience that I chose a crate, but I know it is the safest option. Same as when Arrow was a pup, and the crate meant that the boys could be left in the same room and I know that they were safely kept a part. Crates have many benefits, and not everyone is in the position to puppy proof a room, or keep dogs safely apart all the time.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Something I don't like, is how people continuously highlight how crates can be abused. Of course they can be abused, but so can most things! If someone posts about collars, leads, headcollars etc, do lots of people start highlighting the negatives and insinuating that they are cruel? Most things CAN be cruel, but it isn't the crate itself that is cruel. Someone locking a dog in a crate all day is cruel (depending on the circumstances - as convenience then yes), as is someone locking a dog in a small room all day, or a cupboard all day... but does everyone think small rooms or cupboards are cruel? 

If someone is going to be cruel to their dog, they will find a way to be cruel... they don't need a crate to do so.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

lozzibear said:


> Something I don't like, is how people continuously highlight how crates can be abused. Of course they can be abused, but so can most things! If someone posts about collars, leads, headcollars etc, do lots of people start highlighting the negatives and insinuating that they are cruel? Most things CAN be cruel, but it isn't the crate itself that is cruel. Someone locking a dog in a crate all day is cruel (depending on the circumstances - as convenience then yes), as is someone locking a dog in a small room all day, or a cupboard all day... but does everyone think small rooms or cupboards are cruel?
> 
> If someone is going to be cruel to their dog, they will find a way to be cruel... they don't need a crate to do so.


I think it is highlighted as those who have no intention of being cruel to their dog can actually be putting their dog in one for far too long without even realising it, as seen in a previous thread.

Obviously things can be very cruel but when the dog is in there and not making a fuss it is easy for an owner with no intention of being cruel to their dog to overuse the crate.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

No crate training isn't cruel.
Abusing your dog by locking it up in a small cage for 18 hrs a day is

2 totally different things

My 3 all have crates - they are currently sleeping in them now, the doors are open. Lilly has got out of hers and got in with Zipper, Missy is snoring away in hers 

The way I look at it is my human babies/toddlers had cots/playpens to keep them safe and so do my dogs.

They are used to being crated to if they ever need to have cage rest through illness or injury it won't be stressful to them. If we visit someone/go on holiday I can take their dens with me and they have a familiar place to feel safe. If we have lots of visitors they have a quiet and secure place to take themselves.

They are only shut in for their own safety and overnight when they are asleep as it keeps them calm overnight.

If they were destructive dogs then a large crate for a couple of hours would keep them safe from hurting themselves, but luckily they are not destructive so don't need to be shut in when we are out.


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## xMaloreyx (Jan 3, 2013)

I do have to comment though. One thing that has always worried me, is on crate safety, what about in an emergency? I've read about dogs almost drowning because of a flash flood, and they were in the basement crated, and the owners almost weren't able to get to them in time. I've read on dogs dying in fires, because they were in crates, and the owners couldn't get to the part of the house in time. If they weren't crated, I believe they would have had the option to (most likely) run to safety, but they were stuck where they were. Morbid, I know, but it's one of those things I've thought about when thinking about if I one day use an enclosure for my dogs.


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

No they are not cruel. To me they give dogs their own space and sanctuary, just like my kids have their bedroom. They want peace and quiet, thats where they go. I originally create trained after being advised to by Molly's breeder. She told me how bad they are for chewing and that once passed that stage they love to have a place/den to go to. 
So for her own safety, regarding chewing things that could harm her, I bought a create and she didn't have ANY issues using it. Its hardly ever locked, unless I'm out shopping or I have visitors that are wary of dogs. 
Bronson is the exact same way. Its his bed! I have to drag them out in a morning to go toilet!!! 

All this being said, I can see where people think its cruel. Too many dog owners do not use them in the correct manner and therefore turns to cruelty. 

I don't think every dog should have one, but they work for us and my pooches. My pooches love them, if they didn't I'm sure they would let me know


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

xMaloreyx said:


> I do have to comment though. One thing that has always worried me, is on crate safety, what about in an emergency? I've read about dogs almost drowning because of a flash flood, and they were in the basement crated, and the owners almost weren't able to get to them in time. I've read on dogs dying in fires, because they were in crates, and the owners couldn't get to the part of the house in time. If they weren't crated, I believe they would have had the option to (most likely) run to safety, but they were stuck where they were. Morbid, I know, but it's one of those things I've thought about when thinking about if I one day use an enclosure for my dogs.


I know of someone whose pup managed to hang itself by its back legs- Breaking them both whilst in its crate 

I guess everything in life has risks  but as youve highlighted even used correctly there is a risk.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lozzibear said:


> You said that people who crated their dogs should have hamsters instead of dogs... yes, I find that very offensive! It may be your opinion, but when you post on a public forum, you have to expect that posting such a statement will have people defending their decision.
> 
> I don't see why a dog shouldn't be caged, but other animals should be... like has already been said, dogs like the 'den' feel to crates. I would much prefer to keep my dog in a crate, and KNOW he is safe, rather than run the risk of him chewing something that potentially could kill him. It is no question for me, and not a risk I would take with a young puppy. It isn't simply by choice, for my convenience that I chose a crate, but I know it is the safest option. Same as when Arrow was a pup, and the crate meant that the boys could be left in the same room and I know that they were safely kept a part. Crates have many benefits, and not everyone is in the position to puppy proof a room, or keep dogs safely apart all the time.


If I had my way, no animals would be caged. But as I said, my opinion does not affect how other people do things nor would I expect it to.



emmaviolet said:


> I think it is highlighted as those who have no intention of being cruel to their dog can actually be putting their dog in one for far too long without even realising it, as seen in a previous thread.
> 
> Obviously things can be very cruel but when the dog is in there and not making a fuss it is easy for an owner with no intention of being cruel to their dog to overuse the crate.


Precisely this. There are people who get a crate for a puppy, then gradually puppy spends more and more time in there till he is in there more than out. First it is when the person cannot supervise, then he gets put in there while they do their housework, then because the dog is pestering the kids, etc, etc..........They are too easily abused.



xMaloreyx said:


> I do have to comment though. One thing that has always worried me, is on crate safety, what about in an emergency? I've read about dogs almost drowning because of a flash flood, and they were in the basement crated, and the owners almost weren't able to get to them in time. I've read on dogs dying in fires, because they were in crates, and the owners couldn't get to the part of the house in time. If they weren't crated, I believe they would have had the option to (most likely) run to safety, but they were stuck where they were. Morbid, I know, but it's one of those things I've thought about when thinking about if I one day use an enclosure for my dogs.


That would worry me as well to be honest. If the house is empty, my back door is always unlocked because I worry that if there was a fire, the neighbours would not be able to get inside to rescue the dogs.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I don't think it is cruel provided it isn't abused.

Overnight is one thing, overnight let out to toilet and back in for the day while a person works is wrong imo. Even if the owner is able to let the puppy out at lunchtime. The puppy or dog imo should not live in a crate.

We are fortunately we have a spare room where we would keep a puppy when we are out. This is exactly what we did with Duke. It was his room, he could do whatever he liked and would not be chastised but outside that room and he had to abide by our rules.

Before he was six months old he had the run of the house, we were lucky he wasn't a destructive/chewer. With all pets for them to have the run of the house at such a young age we made sure all cables were unplugged.

To be fair I wished I had have crate trained him, because if ever in the future he needs to be immobalised a crate is invaluable as it is he would probably stress because he isn't used to a crate.

My cats sleep in a crate overnight they are in the room next to us, I have to admit I have thought about in the event of a fire. Their pet carriers are open on top of their crate. Dukes lead etc is in the top drawer of the cupboard in the cats room, it would be a question of hubby grabbing Dukes lead while I put the cats in their carriers then straight down for Duke and out of the door. The rabbits carrier is in the garage, so he would be the last one to grab. I should have mentioned he is an outdoor rabbit.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> I know of someone whose pup managed to hang itself by its back legs- Breaking them both whilst in its crate
> 
> I guess everything in life has risks  but as youve highlighted even used correctly there is a risk.


Mmm, I know of a spaniel who did so much damage to a back leg by getting caught in a crate that it has never recovered


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

I don't think it's cruel so long as used correctly. 

I don't use a crate, I have no need to. the dog is not at all distructive she's never chewed anything that isn't hers, the only thing I need to do when going out is make sure the bin is securly shut lol. she gets free rome of the house.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

rona said:


> Mmm, I know of a spaniel who did so much damage to a back leg by getting caught in a crate that it has never recovered


I know this young pup had to go under the knife  it wasnt a plaster in and wait job they were bad fractures


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> Mmm, I know of a spaniel who did so much damage to a back leg by getting caught in a crate that it has never recovered


Nothing in life is risk free, dogs drop dead or are seriously injured out on exercise, on the shooting field etc.

The only way to ensure that your dog will never injure itself any time, any place anywhere is not to have one.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think crate training is essential, even if you dont plan on using one. What if your dog needs crate rest or is at the vets?? It would be much kinder if you had already acclimatised it to the experience so it didnt become stressed.
I use a crate for Alfie at present as my front room is the only one with heating and it isnt safe for him to be loose in there. He has no problem with it and eats all his meals in there too. When he is bigger he will join the other 3 (either in the kitchen or upstairs with me)....but I could crate any of the older 3 and they wouldnt be bothered by it at all.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

redroses2106 said:


> I don't think it's cruel so long as used correctly.
> 
> I don't use a crate, I have no need to. the dog is not at all distructive she's never chewed anything that isn't hers, the only thing I need to do when going out is make sure the bin is securly shut lol. she gets free rome of the house.


this. 
I think everyone should do what is right for their own dog. Dogs on bedrest need to be crated. Senile dogs need to be crated when not supervised. I don`t crate because I don`t need to in my own circumstances. 
It`s leaving dogs in small cages for long periods or using it a punishment or instead of training that is cruel IMO, not their existence. For travel, for short periods or for medical reasons they are useful.
I will just say that none of my dogs have ever been crate trained - but they all happily go into crates when we are given a lift somewhere or if they are in the Vet hospital.


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## mollydog07 (May 26, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Nothing in life is risk free, dogs drop dead or are seriously injured out on exercise, on the shooting field etc.
> 
> The only way to ensure that your dog will never injure itself any time, any place anywhere is not to have one.


I had the misfortune to witness a staffie lying dead on a pavement by the side of a busy road....still wearing its extendable lead.The lead had failed and the dog ran onto the road,heartbreaking.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

lozzibear said:


> Something I don't like, is how people continuously highlight how crates can be abused. Of course they can be abused, but so can most things! If someone posts about collars, leads, headcollars etc, do lots of people start highlighting the negatives and insinuating that they are cruel? Most things CAN be cruel, but it isn't the crate itself that is cruel. Someone locking a dog in a crate all day is cruel (depending on the circumstances - as convenience then yes), as is someone locking a dog in a small room all day, or a cupboard all day... but does everyone think small rooms or cupboards are cruel?
> 
> If someone is going to be cruel to their dog, they will find a way to be cruel... they don't need a crate to do so.


Actually if you said your dog was in a check chain you would be told you were cruel yet there is nothing wrong with using one CORRECTLY.



xMaloreyx said:


> I do have to comment though. One thing that has always worried me, is on crate safety, what about in an emergency? I've read about dogs almost drowning because of a flash flood, and they were in the basement crated, and the owners almost weren't able to get to them in time. I've read on dogs dying in fires, because they were in crates, and the owners couldn't get to the part of the house in time. If they weren't crated, I believe they would have had the option to (most likely) run to safety, but they were stuck where they were. Morbid, I know, but it's one of those things I've thought about when thinking about if I one day use an enclosure for my dogs.


Dogs also die in fires when they are not in crates as do people - frequently. I dont think you can run your life round the risk of a fire.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

mollydog07 said:


> I had the misfortune to witness a staffie lying dead on a pavement by the side of a busy road....still wearing its extendable lead.The lead had failed and the dog ran onto the road,heartbreaking.


Yep and I am sure there is a tale of terrible injury and/or death associated with every collar, lead, bowl, food, activity etc you can think of.

As they say **** happens.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> *I think crate training is essential, even if you dont plan on using one. What if your dog needs crate rest or is at the vets?? It would be much kinder if you had already acclimatised it to the experience so it didnt become stressed.*
> I use a crate for Alfie at present as my front room is the only one with heating and it isnt safe for him to be loose in there. He has no problem with it and eats all his meals in there too. When he is bigger he will join the other 3 (either in the kitchen or upstairs with me)....but I could crate any of the older 3 and they wouldnt be bothered by it at all.


Im going to disagree with this - I dont think its essential for *all* dogs.

Millie has twice now had to spend 3-4 hours crated at the vets - After slicing her paw I took her to the back room and she plodded straight into the crate to curl up on the vet bed (She loves vet bed ). I have never used a crate with Millie and she certainly wasnt stressed and the vet reported she just slept.

I think its very much a individual dog case by case - Some seem to just take things in their stride. For instance I don't think there's any real reason for me to use a crate at home for Millie incase we have to use one for medical reasons as im pretty confident she would handle it no problems as and if a situation arises.

But if I had a more nervous / less confident dog for example then yes I would definitely see the advantages to acclimatising them to crates.

We have managed restricted movement for her - Straight after surgery she had 5 days of no walking (no following me around the house :yikes: etc) other than to pee (I would drive her to a foot ball field - by carrying her to the car ). I made her a special bed on the living room floor (didnt want her climbing on sofa) out of sofa cushions. We put some toys on there- her fav blanket. Either me or hubby was with her most the time but when we wernt and were wondering around doing stuff told her to 'stay'. It sounds weird its as if she just knew and accepted it. We carried her upstairs and made her 'special' bed up in our room at night times - normally at night she sleeps on our bed. Not once in the 3 weeks did she try get back on to our bed but accepted her 'special' bed.

In fact I starting to think she liked her no exercise being carried around sleeping the whole time routine 

(I do realise though that stress at vets is also effected by many factors not just being crated and the environment they are being held within - ie if there's lots of dogs / lots of people passing through etc) We are lucky at our vets its a quiet room with dogs separate from other animals and certainly when she sliced her paw she was the only animal at the practise so it was a quiet environment.

Sorry bit long winded but just pointing out some dogs just have a weird way of accepting things


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Dillon loved his and used it as a den, until we had to take it off him 3 weeks ago, as we don't have room for it any more.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> Dillon loved his and used it as a den, until we had to take it off him 3 weeks ago, as we don't have room for it any more.


Another problem with crates and big dogs, one day you may not have room for the crate and the dog has become attached to it. Joshua went straight into a crate at the vets, no problem.

If you crate train "just in case" and don't actually use one, doesn't the dog forget about it by the time he needs it? I used to be able to get Ferdie up a ramp into the car, but since he has been jumping in, he won't use a ramp any more.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Another problem with crates and big dogs, one day you may not have room for the crate and the dog has become attached to it. Joshua went straight into a crate at the vets, no problem.
> 
> If you crate train "just in case" and don't actually use one, doesn't the dog forget about it by the time he needs it? I used to be able to get Ferdie up a ramp into the car, but since he has been jumping in, he won't use a ramp any more.


I cant see the point in crate training just in case. I worked for different vets long before crates became the 'in' thing, in fact I doubt if they existed apart from show dogs being carted around in them. I never saw a dog that would not go quietly into a cage when kept in.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

The bottom line on this is that, like everything in the dog world, not every method works for every dog. 
Dogs are as much individuals as children. Do we expect all children to behave the same way, enjoy the same things, or learn in the same manner?
Of course not. We tailor our training and interactions with them to suit their individual personality.

There is a big difference between the temperament of an adult newfie and an adolescent working line, high drive malinois, for instance. To say 'my dog of X breed and age doesn't need a crate so why does this other dog of a different breed, age, temperament?!' makes no sense to me. 
Some dogs probably don't like, won't take to, or don't get much benefit from a crate.
Others love their crates, take to them easily and very much miss them when they're not there. 
I didn't even really have to do much crate training with Dresden. He was quite happy in there the first night, which Im extremely grateful for.

I actually took Dresden's crate away for a while, and when it came to bed time, he paced around crying. As soon as the crate went back up, he was in like a shot and fast asleep. No-one will convince me, ever, that a crate is cruel. It was crueller, to me, to see him pacing and crying.

Everything has the potential to be an instrument of abuse in the wrong hands, every single thing.
The argument of 'they can be mis-used' is just nonsensical to me, because so can anything, and presumably, most of us here are not mis-using our crates, OR advocating doing so.

Believe it or not, Im not a huge fan of animals in cages. I hate birds in cages, I don't even really like the fact that my rats are caged. Even though their cages are huge, and they come out, I still in my heart don't like bars.
BUT....I know also that if they were not caged, my rats would not be alive for very long. I also know they have no problems being caged, as they willingly return there when they've had enough free range. Sometimes, certain lazy rats don't even want to come out for free range at all! 
These are domesticated animals, not wild untamed creatures. 
Would I lock a wild rat in a cage forever? Highly unlikely, they would hate it. 
But do I have an issue with domesticated animals being caged for their own safety? Not at all.
I'd rather have 40 caged rats that are happy and healthy than 40 free roaming rats that will end up dead. 
Similarly, I'd rather a live, healthy dog who sleeps in a crate for a few hours a day and loves doing so, then a dead dog who was given complete freedom while I was out. Its a no brainer, to me.

So really.....just because its not something you feel _your_ dog would benefit from, doesn't mean it is 'cruel'. 
I advocate raw feeding, for example, but do I look down on those who don't feed raw? No. Because it may not suit their dog as perfectly as it suits mine.
If they're happy and healthy eating what they eat, why do they have to do things my way to be exempt from a label of 'cruel'?

Why do we have a variety of methods for teaching each behaviour and not just one? Because not all dogs respond the same way to the same things. Simple. Doesn't make it 'cruel' just because yours prefers things one way, and mine prefers them the other.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Crate training is not cruel... crates are not cruel. People however 

No crate here for Toppa, but luckily my circumstances mean I am with him all day and night, so no chance of puppyness causing havoc here!


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Ferdie did actually chew a big hole in the wall, as well as all the furniture, remotes and mobile phones.


All of which could cause a fatal blockage in a dog - especially if this happened when the dog wasn't supervised.

Oh; and Syrian hamsters are *very* energetic and active little critters who need lots of out-time by the way as well as a good-sized cage. (Most hamster cages are far too small). My hammy gets plenty of free range in a 6x4x2ft rabbit run.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Hanlou said:


> Oh; and Syrian hamsters are *very* energetic and active little critters who need lots of out-time by the way as well as a good-sized cage. (Most hamster cages are far too small). My hammy gets plenty of free range in a 6x4x2ft rabbit run.


I agree with this.
I've only owned 2 hamsters over the years, won't be getting another any time soon, but can tell you they were infinitely more active than my rats. I've never known a hamster refuse to come out for free range time, they're always on the go. I've known plenty of rats who can't be bothered to do much but sleep, eat, and lounge, though! I used to have a Mary cage for my ham, and I still never felt it was big enough for him. Yet I had two elderly buck rats in it after him, and they virtually never moved from their hammock! 
I can honestly say I don't think the hamsters ever came to peace with being caged. They never seemed to relax into it and get comfortable with it, no matter how many toys and how much space. It was like they were constantly looking for a way out. 
I always knew if I left the door open one day, they'd be off without a second thought, and probably have little interest in returning.
With the rats, however, I know if I leave the door open one night, I'll come back in the morning and they'll all still be in there, and probably won't even have noticed it was ever open


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

I don't feel crates are cruel, though like many things can be misused.

I've only recently used a crate, as the foster was jumping our dog gate when left so at risk of escaping when the front door opened or injuring herself in the process and had been crated at the rescue so decided to get one.
Its been really useful and gives her a quiet space to go, my other dogs will also sleep in it. Hattie hurt her back soon after and was ordered to rest and the crate avoids risk of her running about or jumping on sofa's, thankfully she does like being in there. So gone from not feeling like we needed one to buying 2.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Some dogs love a crate, it's a sort of 'sanctuary' for them. However even with six dogs I don't find a crate necessary as long as you have enough rooms to leave them in. I prefer to leave them in a room with a baby gate on the door, that way they can properly stretch their legs and move around. 

I don't keep rabbits or mice etc. because I don't like seeing animals caged, that goes for dogs too as long as they are safe when you're not at home.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

UK Dog Lover said:


> Do you consider crate training to be cruel? I'll be getting my first dog soon and I won't be crate training as I personally would hate to be caged, so it's something I wouldn't do to the dog.
> 
> What's your view on this subject?


Haven't read through all the replies yet as I've got to get ready for work and am still half asleep.

From what I have read, a lot of people have already informed you that they're training tools that, used properly, are a safe, secure place for the dog to go to/sleep in and I just want to add to that with my own experiences.

Max was never crated - he didn't need to be, when left alone he just slept. But Milly, my lurcher, came to me with no training at all, and chewed everything.  I got her a crate and I'd no sooner put it up than she was in there, investigating it, before curling up to go to sleep.

Initially, she was in there whenever I went out and during the night. It helped with her house training, and I could leave her, knowing she was safe (as was anything that wasn't tied down  ).

Now, the door to the crate is left open for her during the night, but she's so content in there that when I get up, she's in there, fast asleep. Even Max (who we never thought would step foot in the crate) will curl up in there and go to sleep.

I got Milly with preconceptions about crates, but without hers, she wouldn't be here now - and I'd most likely be bald and look 20 years older, with all the pulling of my own hair after I'd woken up to yet another pile of mess on the floor, and a room that had been destroyed by my dog - _again_, so whilst your intentions are honourable and you don't want to crate train your dog, your dog may well have other ideas and you end up getting a crate anyway for his/her own safety. 

BTW - I was in the house all day yesterday, (had a very rare DVD day) apart from a quick nip to the shops, and/or walking the dogs - Milly spent most of the day curled up in her crate on her own accord, with the door open. Horrible, abusive things that crates are


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

I crated trained bailey from 7weeks. I did it because I didn't want the house chewed or poo everywhere! And I tell you now, she has only had two had an accident inside, I didn't even have to use puppy pads. 

Also we used to have a friend come over who didn't like dogs,so she went in there.


She's never chewed anything either!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

xbaileyboox said:


> I crated trained bailey from 7weeks. I did it because I didn't want the house chewed or poo everywhere! And I tell you now, she has only had two had an accident inside, I didn't even have to use puppy pads.
> 
> Also we used to have a friend come over who didn't like dogs,so she went in there.
> 
> She's never chewed anything either!


But neither has Alfie and he was never in a crate.

He never chewed anything and no accidents on the floor either.

Also as he was left out and did not chew anything it means he can be left out with me knowing he won't. He has learned the correct behaviour by being out with the furniture.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> But neither has Alfie and he was never in a crate.
> 
> He never chewed anything and no accidents on the floor either.
> 
> Also as he was left out and did not chew anything it means he can be left out with me knowing he won't. He has learned the correct behaviour by being out with the furniture.


Lucky you.

I have found that all dogs are different, some dogs never chew, some chew a little and others inhale stuff just by being exposed to stuff.

It is a bit like a lot of things which people say "my dog never .........." what it really means is that your experience is limited........


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Lucky you.
> 
> I have found that all dogs are different, some dogs never chew, some chew a little and others inhale stuff just by being exposed to stuff.
> 
> It is a bit like a lot of things which people say "my dog never .........." what it really means is that your experience is limited........


But then it is the same for 'my dog never chews in a crate'. The dog might not chew out of it given the chance.

Alfie is one example of many other dogs who also never were crated and no chewing.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

xbaileyboox said:


> Also we used to have a friend come over who didn't like dogs,so she went in there.


I tried that but My friend refused to go in


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

pearltheplank said:


> I tried that but My friend refused to go in


That is brilliant! Friends of mine who don't like dogs don't get invited.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> But then it is the same for 'my dog never chews in a crate'. The dog might not chew out of it given the chance.
> 
> Alfie is one example of many other dogs who also never were crated and no chewing.


ROFLMAO

Are you another one that believes that people who use crates NEVER let their dogs out?

Oh dear.

My dog OFTEN chewed in his crate, SUITABLE items.

I cannot speak for other people but I live alone and I would find it HIGHLY irresponsible of me (and any other dog owner) to expose my dogs unecessarily to danger when for example I have to leave my dog unsupervised when I go to the toilet, take a shower, go shopping etc etc. My puppies are put in a place of safety.

My dog learns NOT to chew under my supervision not when I am absent.

HTH


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> ROFLMAO
> 
> Are you another one that believes that people who use crates NEVER let their dogs out?
> 
> Oh dear.


No I am not.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> But then it is the same for 'my dog never chews in a crate'. The dog might not chew out of it given the chance.
> 
> Alfie is one example of many other dogs who also never were crated and no chewing.


The drama I have with statements like "my dog never chews" as a puppy is that you can never say never. They are always changing, always exploring, always pushing boundaries, teething...

Kilo never chewed anything inappropriate in the house or office and Rudi, so far, hasn't either but has been redirected a lot. Kilo was crated when he couldn't be supervised as a puppy and Rudi is. Kilo wasn't crated in the office as my desk had metal legs and the filing cabinets were metal too and I could put the phone wires / computer cables etc out of the way.

I don't see the point of going out and worrying whether or not the puppy is ingesting something really dangerous, electrocuting himself or destroying my beloved dining room furniture when I can put him in his crate with lots of interesting items to chew, knowing that he simply settles and sleeps - he is usually asleep before I leave the house. I can then go for my swim or whatever and relax completely - it's all about risk to me. I now have no reason to believe that Kilo will chew inappropriately or otherwise get up to 'no good!' so he has free run of the house; I have no reason to believe that Rudi won't chew as he's a very, very bitey puppy and is teething ferociously so he is crated.

I also know that Kilo could seriously harm or kill Rudi whilst I am out if I leave them out together and they have a spat - they have never had one, but why risk it at this stage?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> But neither has Alfie and he was never in a crate.
> 
> He never chewed anything and no accidents on the floor either.
> 
> Also as he was left out and did not chew anything it means he can be left out with me knowing he won't. *He has learned the correct behaviour by being out with the furniture*.


But so can dogs who are crated; they aren't crated permanently - they are taught the correct behaviour by being out with the furniture too. I can't teach them the correct behaviour whilst I'm absent - hence the crate; I don't want to set them up to fail, all other risks aside.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> He has learned the correct behaviour by being out with the furniture.


And Rupert learned the incorrect behaviour by being left loose and able to make the wrong decision about what to chew for so long (ex thought crates cruel). Had he been crated when we first got him maybe he wouldn't have needed crating his entire life because he would have developed the habit of chewing on the appropriate things rather than destroying the house.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> But neither has Alfie and he was never in a crate.
> 
> He never chewed anything and no accidents on the floor either.
> 
> Also as he was left out and did not chew anything it means he can be left out with me knowing he won't. He has learned the correct behaviour by being out with the furniture.


bailey is now left out, and doesnt touch anything. at all. shes only 9months, and the kids can have there toys out and she wont touch them.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Some dogs love a crate, it's a sort of 'sanctuary' for them. However even with six dogs I don't find a crate necessary as long as you have enough rooms to leave them in. I prefer to leave them in a room with a baby gate on the door, that way they can properly stretch their legs and move around.
> 
> I don't keep rabbits or mice etc. because I don't like seeing animals caged, that goes for dogs too *as long as they are safe when you're not at home.*


I guess thats the key - Every dog is different - every house is different and every owner is different.

I am the same as you and prefer to dog proof the house (Although it doesnt take much dog proofing with Millie admittedly as she wont even touch dog biscuits or her food in her own bowl with being given the 'ok go go') but its primarily about keeping a dog safe.

But safety is paramount - If a crate is the way to ensure that then so be it.

I realise my next dog might turn into a right chew monster esp if its younger than Millie was  I might not have it so easy next time 

But the safety of the dog is paramount.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I wonder how you dog proof

carpet
doors
door frames
walls 

etc?


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## *Camelia* (May 12, 2011)

Not cruel at all, my family have always crate trained their dogs from pups.


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

we are crate training and pup is not taking too well to it but at the end of the day what is the alternative? I cant leave him downstairs on his own , its not safe and how would I know he needed to go outside if I was upstairs asleep? (because to let you know he needs to go out he just wanders towards the back doors and sits waiting for a second then if you don't let him out he just poops by the back door ) , I cant have him in my bed or by my bed cus I have my 2 year old in my bed most of the night and its no one would get any sleep... I could leave him in the kitchen but he'd hate that even more , and I don't see how that's any better  ??? at least in a crate I know he's safe while we sleep and he wont poo or wee til I let him out.....


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> I wonder how you dog proof
> 
> carpet
> doors
> ...


Only answer I've ever had to that question is to coat it with something nasty tasting. Which works with some dogs but not others. For Rupert the pleasure of chewing seemed to outweigh the taste of whatever I sprayed stuff with. Not to mention it's not really practical to coat everything in the house or even just one room with anti chew stuff every time you pop out for ten minutes. And Spen, being a stomach on legs, would likely just thank me for seasoning his food for him 

Oh, actually, I think someone once suggested a pen of some sort so Rupe couldn't get to the walls or doors. But it would have still left the floor and I don't really see how it would have been any different to a crate except for the possibility of him climbing out of it.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

how could you NOT want to sleep in there..


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> I guess thats the key - Every dog is different - every house is different and every owner is different.


This is true!

Take my friend has two toddlers and has never baby proofed her house, as she sees it the baby learns around the house she lives in.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I attribute Kes being beautifully behaved in the house these days to responsible crate training. She was not allowed to chew things unsupervised, nor was she allowed run of the house before she was ready to have it. We gradually phased out the crate when she had learned what is good to chew and what is good behaviour in the house and she can now be trusted 99% in the house (I'd never say 100%, you never know) on her own outside her crate which has now been put down. As she can be quite a skitty dog I think crate training was a good idea, no doubt when she has her spay etc. she may have to go in her crate for her own health especially when visitors come round and she gets excited about greeting them. 

As we're messy buggers in our house it would have been impossible to put her in a 'puppy proof room', and added to which we're in a rental property and our landlord was swayed by the fact we crate trained her to ensure the house was safe from destruction. 

It also comes in handy for if we have visitors such as workmen who need to go in and out the house as we know she can't run out if they leave a door open by accident, nor can she bother them. It was also a godsend when I picked up a stray dog who turned out to be slightly DA so I put Kes in her crate until the dog warden could come and collect the poor chap so everyone was safe and there was no chance of injury.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> I attribute Kes being beautifully behaved in the house these days to responsible crate training. She was not allowed to chew things unsupervised, nor was she allowed run of the house before she was ready to have it. We gradually phased out the crate when she had learned what is good to chew and what is good behaviour in the house and she can now be trusted 99% in the house (I'd never say 100%, you never know) on her own outside her crate which has now been put down. As she can be quite a skitty dog I think crate training was a good idea, no doubt when she has her spay etc. she may have to go in her crate for her own health especially when visitors come round and she gets excited about greeting them.
> 
> As we're messy buggers in our house it would have been impossible to put her in a 'puppy proof room', and added to which* we're in a rental property and our landlord was swayed by the fact we crate trained her to ensure the house was safe from destruction. *
> 
> It also comes in handy for if we have visitors such as workmen who need to go in and out the house as we know she can't run out if they leave a door open by accident, nor can she bother them. It was also a godsend when I picked up a stray dog who turned out to be slightly DA so I put Kes in her crate until the dog warden could come and collect the poor chap so everyone was safe and there was no chance of injury.


As a landlord, if tenants ask for permission to have a puppy them saying that they crate train them sways me too.

As a tenant of the MOD who expect houses back in absolutely pristine condition I just cannot allow the dogs to chew the place up - the amount that we'd be charged would be huge!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Dogless said:


> But so can dogs who are crated; they aren't crated permanently - they are taught the correct behaviour by being out with the furniture too. I can't teach them the correct behaviour whilst I'm absent - hence the crate; I don't want to set them up to fail, all other risks aside.


Of course they do too. It's like everything else and they have learnt the same thing but in different ways.

Obviously everyone knows their dog best and by living with them you learn what they will and won't do so you know when/if they can be left out.

Take when you first let Kilo have free run of the house, you knew then that he wouldn't destroy anything and took an assessment of the risks etc and knew when it was right.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Dogless said:


> *As a landlord, if tenants ask for permission to have a puppy them saying that they crate train them sways me too. *
> 
> As a tenant of the MOD who expect houses back in absolutely pristine condition I just cannot allow the dogs to chew the place up - the amount that we'd be charged would be huge!


I'm not surprised. Some ex-friends of mine have a husky who they took to their rental property (no dogs allowed), pursuaded the poor landlord to let him stay and he now chews up all the new carpets etc. :thumbdown:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogless said:


> As a tenant of the MOD who expect houses back in absolutely pristine condition I just cannot allow the dogs to chew the place up - the amount that we'd be charged would be huge!


In addition that, we've been told they can revoke permission for you to have a dog if the dog causes damage to the property.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Others have said what I would have commented but better than me  (Dogless and Smokeybear) but I would just like to add a question to the Crate Haters...

What would you do if your next dog was a power chewer? I mean, a REAL, proper chewer, destroyer of anything and everything? As Smokeybear said, how do you 'chew proof' walls, doors etc? A friend of mine's lab chewed straight through a wall one day... right through the whole thing; to make a nice ready made serving hatch  They were very lucky really that he was physically okay after it... there were lumps of plaster all over the floor that he could have easily choked on or eaten to cause a blockage.

Of course, you can re-direct onto more appropriate things when you're THERE. But you can't do it when you're not there (obviously) so how would you ensure the puppy/dog was safe? Never leave the house? Hope for the best every time you do go out and keep your fingers crossed you won't come home to an ill or dead dog?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> Of course they do too. It's like everything else and they have learnt the same thing but in different ways.
> 
> Obviously everyone knows their dog best and by living with them you learn what they will and won't do so you know when/if they can be left out.
> 
> Take when you first let Kilo have free run of the house, you knew then that he wouldn't destroy anything and took an assessment of the risks etc and knew when it was right.


He never showed any inclination to destroy anything right from the start TBH; I just wasn't going to take the risk with a tiny puppy.

In a few minutes' time I am about to go swimming - both dogs are fast asleep on the sofa; I suspect that they would remain that way until I got back, but would worry and really not enjoy my swim - I'd spend the 200 lengths totally anxious and just want to get home - so Rudi will be crated.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> I'm not surprised. Some ex-friends of mine have a husky who they took to their rental property (no dogs allowed), pursuaded the poor landlord to let him stay and he now chews up all the new carpets etc. :thumbdown:


I have had horrendous experiences with tenants .



Sarah1983 said:


> In addition that, we've been told they can revoke permission for you to have a dog if the dog causes damage to the property.


Absolutely - why risk that for the sake of a crate?


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

The renting issues are another excellent point. We rent and we're currently in the process of having to look for somewhere else as our landlord is selling  I'm hopeful that the fact Alfie is crate trained will help future landlord's to consider us. Our current landlord has helpfully done us a lovely reference and he mentions Alfie being crated it in. In fact, I'm waiting right now on a phone call back from the letting agents about a house we've seen, to see if the LL will agree to us having it, with the dog. Going OT a bit I know but if you could all keep your fingers crossed I'd really appreciate it!


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

I really cannot see how crate training is cruel? Leaving a dog in a crate for 24 hours a day is cruel but that's not the same thing.
I crate-trained my dog when I got him, partly to keep him safe and stop him chewing the kitchen table at night and while I was out but there are many more benefits to crate-training than just stopping chewing.
He no longer sleeps in his crate at night so now it stays in my living room with the door open and he can come and go as he pleases. He often choses to lie in there in the evenings (or on top of it, but he is odd like that), and I like that he has somewhere he can go when he wants a bit of peace and quiet.
It also means I can take him on holiday, or to visit relatives and he will happily sleep in his crate at night and I don't have to worry about him (my house is pretty dog-proof but I can't say the same about my sister's or even dog-friendly holiday cottages). 

I have a friend who is a vet and she loves it when they have crate-trained dogs in as they are always so much less stressed if they have to stay in for treatment.


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

I have personally never crated a dog, however, I have never had a chewer. 

Never say never....


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Oh and does this dog look unhappy to you?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Coffee said:


> Others have said what I would have commented but better than me  (Dogless and Smokeybear) but I would just like to add a question to the Crate Haters...
> 
> *What would you do if your next dog was a power chewer? I mean, a REAL, proper chewer, destroyer of anything and everything?* As Smokeybear said, how do you 'chew proof' walls, doors etc? A friend of mine's lab chewed straight through a wall one day... right through the whole thing; to make a nice ready made serving hatch  They were very lucky really that he was physically okay after it... there were lumps of plaster all over the floor that he could have easily choked on or eaten to cause a blockage.
> 
> Of course, you can re-direct onto more appropriate things when you're THERE. But you can't do it when you're not there (obviously) so how would you ensure the puppy/dog was safe? Never leave the house? Hope for the best every time you do go out and keep your fingers crossed you won't come home to an ill or dead dog?


Like Ferdie, you mean? He chewed a hole through a breezeblock wall, and ripped out plug breaking the socket in the process, and ate four dining chairs, an office chair, and a leather three piece suite.

My own opinion is if you have a puppy, especially a giant puppy, you expect to get chewed and no material object is worth worrying about. If it is I would put it out of his way. As I said, I have had a lot of success with chew deterrents and I always unplugged everything they could reach when I was out, so if they did chew through the wires they would come to no harm.

I don't think crates are cruel in themselves, just the way they are often used and let's face it not everyone is as knowledgeable as the people on here. When you have seen a springer puppy get rehomed at 9 months because there was something wrong with it, i.e. "it was a psycho dog", but you know it was because it had barely been out of a crate, you don't have a good impression of them. So I don't think they should be on general sale to the public any more than any other training tool.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't think crates are cruel in themselves, just the way they are often used and let's face it not everyone is as knowledgeable as the people on here. When you have seen a springer puppy get rehomed at 9 months because there was something wrong with it, i.e. "it was a psycho dog", but you know it was because it had barely been out of a crate, you don't have a good impression of them. *So I don't think they should be on general sale to the public any more than any other training tool*.


Interesting point. I don't know any crates that come with any kind of instructions about responsible usage etc. Perhaps it might be an idea for them to come with suggested guidelines and uses? Ignorance would no longer be an excuse.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Interesting point. I don't know any crates that come with any kind of instructions about responsible usage etc. Perhaps it might be an idea for them to come with suggested guidelines and uses? Ignorance would no longer be an excuse.


But most people wouldnt read it - How many who use a Flexi have read the instruction literature which comes with it?  Not many I bet then moan how dangerous Flexi leads are 

Hooomans are stuuupid


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Milliepoochie said:


> But most people wouldnt read it - How many who use a Flexi have read the instruction literature which comes with it?  Not many I bet then moan how dangerous Flexi leads are
> 
> Hooomans are stuuupid


Although they don't come with a manual, there is plenty of information to be had about dog breeds. They obviously didn't read the instructions regarding a springer spaniel, so no reason why they should read one for a crate.

As you say, humans are stupid. They are also selfish and too wrapped up in what suits them.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Although they don't come with a manual, there is plenty of information to be had about dog breeds. They obviously didn't read the instructions regarding a springer spaniel, so no reason why they should read one for a crate.
> 
> As you say, humans are stupid. They are also selfish and too wrapped up in what suits them.


Although they should come with a pack about what the breed requires and any breeder should make well aware of how much exercise and stimulation one would need!!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Interesting point. I don't know any crates that come with any kind of instructions about responsible usage etc. Perhaps it might be an idea for them to come with suggested guidelines and uses? Ignorance would no longer be an excuse.


I really can't believe they don't when you think that a long line lead does, yet something that can be abused by locking them away doesn't have anything to advise the best way to use them!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Like Ferdie, you mean? He chewed a hole through a breezeblock wall, and ripped out plug breaking the socket in the process, and ate four dining chairs, an office chair, and a leather three piece suite.


It wouldn't have been the chewed up stuff that bothered me as much as the fact he could well have caused serious harm to himself in the process.


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

Well heres one boy who is happy in his crate after a long,wet and muddy walk.










He can dry out but be with us at the same time.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

blossom21 said:


> Well heres one boy who is happy in his crate after a long,wet and muddy walk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not just towel him down?

Im not denying your dog isnt happy but I find with Millie anyway a quick rinse in warm water to remove dirt and a rub with a thick towel leaves her dry enough to be able to go on the sofa within 10-15mins.

I would of thought it more frustrating for a dog to be shut in a crate when theres people walking around / within ear shot?


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2013)

Yesterday I bought a large dog crate for seven pound second hand at my local rescue. 
Zander cannot stand up full in it so its just being used as a covered bed and a hideyhole for him and the door is left open. 

Personally if I had a power chewer, a real power chewer (as in floors etc) I think crating would be essential as living in a rented property, not entirely sure the landlord would be best pleased. If you have a powerchewer and you give them access to inappropriate things to chew while you cannot supervise them, then that I find is a tad irresponsible. 
Crates are a useful training tool, the same as headcollars etc, and all of them to some extent have health risks. I know of a dog who broke his neck while wearing a headcollar, I also know of a dog who managed to break his leg by getting his leg tangled up in the coat loop as it started to come of during a walk.

The crates themselves are not cruel, its the bloody moron's who misuse them or don't research them before getting one.

IMO, of course


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Why not just towel him down?
> 
> Im not denying your dog isnt happy but I find with Millie anyway a quick rinse in warm water to remove dirt and a rub with a thick towel leaves her dry enough to be able to go on the sofa within 10-15mins.
> 
> I would of thought it more frustrating for a dog to be shut in a crate when theres people walking around / within ear shot?


Not all dogs towel down well. Kes' husky bit of her coat won't dry no matter how much you try.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> It wouldn't have been the chewed up stuff that bothered me as much as the fact he could well have caused serious harm to himself in the process.


But as we have heard, he could have done just as much damage to himself inside a crate. Nothing is foolproof and I was under the impression that most people were advocating crates to protect their furnishings, not to protect the dog.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Not all dogs towel down well. Kes' husky bit of her coat won't dry no matter how much you try.


Lol My agillity trainer does call Millie the 'Teflon Dog'


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> But as we have heard, he could have done just as much damage to himself inside a crate. Nothing is foolproof and I was under the impression that most people were advocating crates to protect their furnishings, not to protect the dog.


But surely under that logic then no room is safe? A dog can do himself alot of damage in the kitchen by a kettle falling on him or getting his collar caught on a cupboard door?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Lol My agillity trainer does call Millie the 'Teflon Dog'


:lol: If only she had an even coat, her sides and legs are fine with her shorthair but her double coat stripe on top is a nightmare.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LurcherOwner said:


> But surely under that logic then no room is safe? A dog can do himself alot of damage in the kitchen by a kettle falling on him or getting his collar caught on a cupboard door?


Precisely. I can remove anything poisonous or dangerous from the room, but nothing is 100% and I prefer my dogs to have the run of the place within reason.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> But as we have heard, he could have done just as much damage to himself inside a crate. Nothing is foolproof and I was under the impression that most people were advocating crates to protect their furnishings, not to protect the dog.


Works both ways really, protects the dog and protects what it might chew. But my main concern is my dog, most of my belongings are replaceable and those that aren't are easily shut away, he isn't replaceable. And yeah, while it's partly convenience in that it's a hell of a lot easier to crate him than clear away every potential hazard every time we go somewhere it's still his safety that ultimately concerns me rather than my possessions.

Nothing is completely without risk but I think Spen (and Rupert before him) stands a lot less chance of injuring himself lying calmly in a crate with a stuffed Kong than left loose with a ton of things to chew or get stuck under/between, pull over on himself or whatever. If he were anxious in his crate I'd have to rethink because I believe there'd be a much bigger risk of injury then but as it is he's happy enough in there and unlikely to come to any harm.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> :lol: If only she had an even coat, her sides and legs are fine with her shorthair but her double coat stripe on top is a nightmare.


Bless her - :001_wub: :001_wub: Millie is the envy of all Collie owners after agility when there all arguing with the hose trying to keep cars clean.

The thing is though she always looks clean but if you feel her tummy its horrendous - bloomin short dogs. Although I realise im lucky her having a single coat


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Works both ways really, protects the dog and protects what it might chew. But my main concern is my dog, most of my belongings are replaceable and those that aren't are easily shut away, he isn't replaceable. And yeah, while it's partly convenience in that it's a hell of a lot easier to crate him than clear away every potential hazard every time we go somewhere it's still his safety that ultimately concerns me rather than my possessions.
> 
> Nothing is completely without risk but I think Spen (and Rupert before him) stands a lot less chance of injuring himself lying calmly in a crate with a stuffed Kong than left loose with a ton of things to chew or get stuck under/between, pull over on himself or whatever. If he were anxious in his crate I'd have to rethink because I believe there'd be a much bigger risk of injury then but as it is he's happy enough in there and unlikely to come to any harm.


To be fair, I have never had to leave a puppy long enough for it to be a worry, as when I haven't been there someone else has. They may not have been supervising, but would know if anything untoward happened.

If your dogs are happy in their crates while you are out, all well and good, but I still don't see myself ever using one except for their protection or recovery. I had Joshua in a puppy pen when we first got him in case Ferdie injured him by mistake, but they both made so much noise because they wanted to snuggle up together, that it didn't last long.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> To be fair, I have never had to leave a puppy long enough for it to be a worry, as when I haven't been there someone else has. They may not have been supervising, but would know if anything untoward happened.
> 
> If your dogs are happy in their crates while you are out, all well and good, but I still don't see myself ever using one except for their protection or recovery. I had Joshua in a puppy pen when we first got him in case Ferdie injured him by mistake, but they both made so much noise because they wanted to snuggle up together, that it didn't last long.


That's fine, I'm not trying to convince you to use a crate with your dog, just explaining why I use one with mine. Keeps him safe, keeps my stuff safe and means there's no way I can be told to get rid of him or find somewhere else to live because he's wrecked the place


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> That's fine, I'm not trying to convince you to use a crate with your dog, just explaining why I use one with mine. Keeps him safe, keeps my stuff safe and means there's no way I can be told to get rid of him or find somewhere else to live because he's wrecked the place


Well that's another thing isn't it? I have my own house, which is well chewed in places, but the one time I had to rent for a little while I was on tenterhooks and I have said before, I found it impossible to housetrain Joshua there. As soon as we moved back to our own house, I had him housetrained in no time.

It is all circumstances and what suits people best. With crates, I have seen them misused too often to ever really be in favour of them.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> With crates, I have seen them misused too often to ever really be in favour of them.


I don't really ever get this argument: something is bad because some people will mis-use it? Some people will mis-use anything! A fork can be a deadly item in the hands of someone determined to do harm with it.
I've seen enough alcohol abuse to know it _can_ be horrible stuff when it is abused. I also know that in the hands of someone responsible, its not a problem. I don't have a negative view of alcohol just because I've met a lot of people who can't be responsible with it.

Its dodgy territory when one starts thinking 'some people won't use this properly, or will cause harm with it, therefore, I don't agree with this thing!'
Thats what leads perfectly fine items/things to being banned en masse, because some people can't be trusted with them, then everyone has to suffer.
I've seen a lot of dog's mess around my area left by people who refuse to clean up. By this reasoning, I should just have a downer on all dog walkers because I've seen the amount of hassle lots of them cause.

Sensible, educated, responsible people should not be lumped into groups with irresponsible morons; it isn't fair.
I have no issues if you don't wish to crate, no-one is saying everyone should.
But when a tool can be extremely useful, enrich the lives of dog and owner, and save the dog from injury or death, I just can't see why someone would oppose its useage full stop, just because some don't use it correctly.

I also don't really like the argument of 'I never had to crate train MY dogs, why do you have to do yours?'
Well, because my dog is different to your dog! 
I have to go to counselling for my anxiety, while the next person has no anxiety issues, doesn't make me wrong, it makes us different people who have to approach life in different ways!

Honestly, really, take a 12 year old CKCS and put it alongside an adolescent working line dobe or mal, and tell me they're the same behaviourally, and need treating/training the exact same way! There is no validity in the argument of 'well, I've never had to do X thing, why do you?!'
As Smokey says, all it shows is a lack of experience, because one day, they might just have a dog that they want/need to crate 

I think we also should stop looking at the crate as something humans use for their convenience, and remember that for most of us, the crate is there for the _dogs protection_ only.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Well that's another thing isn't it? I have my own house, which is well chewed in places, but the one time I had to rent for a little while I was on tenterhooks and I have said before, I found it impossible to housetrain Joshua there. As soon as we moved back to our own house, I had him housetrained in no time.
> 
> It is all circumstances and what suits people best. With crates, I have seen them misused too often to ever really be in favour of them.


...and before crates people would lock dogs in dark basements. If you're a shitty dog owner you will be regardless of what tools are available to you. No e-collars? Kick your dog. No crate? Shove them in the basement. No choke chain? Smack the dog.


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

I dont think its cruel at all.. but i used to lol.

Grizzler has never needed to crate trained he doesnt mess, chew, destroy, counter surf etc etc and never has, before i joined this forum i had the wrong view of crates but being here helped me to see they are a tool in training and invaluable in some cases.

Now we have zelda we have 2 crates, 42" ones so she has lots of room with bed and bowls etc, she has one in the bedroom for night and one in the lounge for if we go out in the day so she is in the same room as grizz, without it i honestly think she would have killed herself, she is into everything and with no one there to supervise she would get behind the tv for wires, try to chew the walls and pull up the carpet.. shes just that way inclined, has stag bars, kongs, toys etc etc but will still do these things if she thinks your not looking.

I would not be without a crate now but if there is no need there is no need every dog is different.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Shadowrat said:


> I don't really ever get this argument: something is bad because some people will mis-use it? Some people will mis-use anything! A fork can be a deadly item in the hands of someone determined to do harm with it.
> I've seen enough alcohol abuse to know it _can_ be horrible stuff when it is abused. I also know that in the hands of someone responsible, its not a problem. I don't have a negative view of alcohol just because I've met a lot of people who can't be responsible with it.
> 
> Its dodgy territory when one starts thinking 'some people won't use this properly, or will cause harm with it, therefore, I don't agree with this thing!'
> ...


But I don't know that it is for most of us. It is definitely for most of us on here, but not for the general public who get one because they are the in thing and really don't have a clue how to use it. I know that there can be abuse in all things, I am not saying otherwise, just that I prefer not to use one.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> But as we have heard, he could have done just as much damage to himself inside a crate. Nothing is foolproof and I was under the impression that most people were advocating crates to protect their furnishings, not to protect the dog.


I want to protect both; I love my dogs beyond explanation, but I also have some nice furniture that I worked extremely hard to buy. Why risk a seriously ill dog plus wrecked furniture? I don't see what is wrong with having a relatively undamaged and clean house and dogs - I don't think the two need to be mutually exclusive . I also don't allow my dogs upstairs, but that doesn't equate to loving them any less than those who do allow it.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Shadowrat said:


> As Smokey says, all it shows is a lack of experience, because one day, they might just have a dog that they want/need to crate


See I am not anti crates, obviously they have uses, I'm just not a big fan.

I agree totally with Sarahs use of them as her dog would not be safe at all left out on his own and others use of them too.

However I don't like what you have quoted, as it was at first directed towards me. I do not think it shows lack of experience, it shows more lack of experience to crate a puppy from the first day/night without seeing if the puppy has any destructive behaviour first IMHO. How do you know the puppy needs a crate without a trial first?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> How do you know the puppy needs a crate without a trial first?[/B]


But any destructive behaviour may not surface for days / weeks. They may have a one-off episode when something stresses them when they are alone. On the first couple of days and nights puppies tend to be pretty reserved and don't touch anything do they? Kilo has never exhibited destructive behaviour and may well not have needed a crate - but the crate has done him no harm whatsoever and importantly allowed me to know that he was safe. He wasn't crated in the office as people used to check on him if I was away for a while and the person in the office opposite mine could see him all the time if they were in work, so he was effectively supervised.

Why risk a puppy being seriously hurt by an adult dog with a trial? Risk it having some sort of accident? Ingesting something it shouldn't?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Dogless said:


> But any destructive behaviour may not surface for days / weeks. They may have a one-off episode when something stresses them when they are alone. On the first couple of days and nights puppies tend to be pretty reserved and don't touch anything do they? Kilo has never exhibited destructive behaviour and may well not have needed a crate - but the crate has done him no harm whatsoever and importantly allowed me to know that he was safe. He wasn't crated in the office as people used to check on him if I was away for a while and the person in the office opposite mine could see him all the time if they were in work, so he was effectively supervised.
> 
> Why risk a puppy being seriously hurt by an adult dog with a trial? Risk it having some sort of accident? Ingesting something it shouldn't?


Obviously in your house it was really important for no damage to be done under your contacts etc.

With the ingesting things I see it just as dangerous leaving a puppy in a crate alone with food and toys that they could choke on too.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> it shows more lack of experience to crate a puppy from the first day/night without seeing if the puppy has any destructive behaviour first IMHO. How do you know the puppy needs a crate without a trial first?


Fine, if you're using it purely to protect your household items.
But that was low on my list of reasons for getting a crate. My main reason was for toilet training, and _his safety_. 
He was 8 weeks old when I got him, as most pups are when they come home. And I couldn't be with him 24/7. I had to sleep, I had to pop to the shops, I had to have showers, I had to go to the loo!
And I would no more leave an 8 week old puppy alone unsupervised than I would a 2 year old child. So what if they show 'no destructive tendencies', its still an infant who aren't known for their ability to look after themselves.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a puppy getting used to a crate, for whatever reason it may need it in the future, and it is best to start earlier than later. So I don't see how someone getting a new pup and choosing to crate train from day one shows inexperience.....to me it shows responsibility and understanding that puppies are much like kids, and cannot be trusted to do what is best for themselves unsupervised all the time.
Even if a puppy has shown no 'destructive tendencies' in my company, it may well do once I leave the house, a many dogs behave differently when you're there to when you're not.....and how will I know unless I 'suck it and see' what happens? 
By which time, puppy could have a blockage, or even be dead.

No.....its a responsible decision, to me.
Not the be all and end all, and not the way EVERYONE has to raise their puppy, but certainly not a bad thing, and often, a very good one.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> With the ingesting things I see it just as dangerous leaving a puppy in a crate alone with food and toys that they could choke on too.


That narrows down the items it can chew on from 'everything in the house' to 'one or two items', better odds, to me.


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## xMaloreyx (Jan 3, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> See I am not anti crates, obviously they have uses, I'm just not a big fan.
> 
> I agree totally with Sarahs use of them as her dog would not be safe at all left out on his own and others use of them too.
> 
> However I don't like what you have quoted, as it was at first directed towards me. I do not think it shows lack of experience, it shows more lack of experience to crate a puppy from the first day/night without seeing if the puppy has any destructive behaviour first IMHO. How do you know the puppy needs a crate without a trial first?


Reminds me of my friend's sister, who got a puppy, and has basically dumped it on my friend, they don't use a crate or enclosure at all for the puppy. They got it at 7 weeks old, and now it's about 9 / 10 weeks old, and he doesn't destroy anything, and will go to the bathroom on the puppy pads near the door if he needs to, if not let out when need be. We also raised my Miniature Schnauzer from 6 weeks old without needing a crate, and he was another who was not destructive, and would use puppy pads if need be. I know not all puppies / dogs will be like this, but we didn't feel the need to throw them in a crate or enclosure right away, and it's worked for us.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> Obviously in your house it was really important for no damage to be done under your contacts etc.
> 
> With the ingesting things I see it just as dangerous leaving a puppy in a crate alone with food and toys that they could choke on too.


It would be important to me no matter what house I lived in TBH - the one I was in at the time Kilo was a puppy was my own house.

I don't leave any food for that reason and the toys that I leave are as safe as I can possible manage, of course you can't say that they are absolutely safe - nothing is. When I have filmed (I am that sad ) the only thing that happens in a crate is sleep...I got back from walking Kilo this evening, opened the door and there stayed a sleepy Rudi.


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## Symone (Dec 3, 2012)

When I was a child I thought crates were cruel, But then again my mum watched loads of shows about abused animals and lots of them were in small cages. 
However when I grew up I understood why someone would crate their dog. And I now crate mine.
Mine uses her crate for 2 (sometimes 3) things.
1 . Sleep at night.
2. To calm down.
3. Eating food she is likely to hide. (She's nearly out of this habit though! )

I didn't crate train her at first, but her breeder suggested it when I mentioned that she started to bite me as I got in to bed at night. So she goes in her crate first, then by the time I am ready she's curling up for sleep.
I take her out at 3am every night for a quick wee and poo, and if the OH isn't here she doesn't have to go back in her crate. (More of because I feel lonely  ) but she happily walks in and out of her crate, she knows the door only shuts at night and when she needs to calm down. 

I tried moving her crate once and she hated this so much. I had to move it back to where it was. She has a box on top so it's like a ceiling, and blankets during the day when she needs to calm down, but the front is uncovered.
I believe she likes her crate ^^


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

xMaloreyx said:


> Reminds me of my friend's sister, who got a puppy, and has basically dumped it on my friend, they don't use a crate or enclosure at all for the puppy. They got it at 7 weeks old, and now it's about 9 / 10 weeks old, and he doesn't destroy anything, and will go to the bathroom on the puppy pads near the door if he needs to, if not let out when need be. We also raised my Miniature Schnauzer from 6 weeks old without needing a crate, and he was another who was not destructive, and would use puppy pads if need be. I know not all puppies / dogs will be like this, but we *didn't feel the need to throw them in a crate *or enclosure right away, and it's worked for us.


I have never thrown a puppy in a crate - why do you assume that those of us who use them are somehow cruel and neglectful? I make it a nice place, that is gone to willingly (and voluntarily much of the time). I absolutely disagree with puppy pads but don't automatically assume that those who use them are worse dog owners than I am.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Dogless said:


> It would be important to me no matter what house I lived in TBH - the one I was in at the time Kilo was a puppy was my own house.
> 
> I don't leave any food for that reason and the toys that I leave are as safe as I can possible manage, of course you can't say that they are absolutely safe - nothing is. When I have filmed (I am that sad ) the only thing that happens in a crate is sleep...I got back from walking Kilo this evening, opened the door and there stayed a sleepy Rudi.


Not that sad I've filmed and taped Alfie. Same thing really sleep and the occasional change of position etc.

Fair enough, everyones different in their approach. Like I say I'm not anti them for everyone I'm just not pro, if that makes any sense.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Shadowrat said:


> Fine, if you're using it purely to protect your household items.
> But that was low on my list of reasons for getting a crate. My main reason was for toilet training, and _his safety_.
> He was 8 weeks old when I got him, as most pups are when they come home. And I couldn't be with him 24/7. I had to sleep, I had to pop to the shops, I had to have showers, I had to go to the loo!
> And I would no more leave an 8 week old puppy alone unsupervised than I would a 2 year old child. So what if they show 'no destructive tendencies', its still an infant who aren't known for their ability to look after themselves.
> ...


Wait a minute, you are saying And I would no more leave an 8 week old puppy alone unsupervised than I would a 2 year old child. So what if they show 'no destructive tendencies', its still an infant who aren't known for their ability to look after themselves.

but Not the be all and end all, and not the way EVERYONE has to raise their puppy, but certainly not a bad thing, and often, a very good one

Those two statements do not sit very well together. You are basically saying that anyone that does not crate is being very neglectful.

I am not at all against crating but I do think it ridiculous to crate the poor puppy every time you go out of the room!

I do wonder how any pup over the centuries of dog owning before crates actually managed to survive


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I think Blitz seems to be the only one here is on both sides of the fence. It seems (although I may be mistaken) that those who argue against crates have never used them so are perhaps coming from a slightly uninformed stance, whereas those who have switched over or who have used them for some dogs and not others seem to have more pursuasive and informed arguments, imo.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Wait a minute, you are saying And I would no more leave an 8 week old puppy alone unsupervised than I would a 2 year old child. So what if they show 'no destructive tendencies', its still an infant who aren't known for their ability to look after themselves.
> 
> but Not the be all and end all, and not the way EVERYONE has to raise their puppy, but certainly not a bad thing, and often, a very good one
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say its the way _everyone_ should raise their puppy, simply because I'd never dare lay such a blanket statement on all dog owners. Im not into that. I'll leave those 'my way or the highway' statements to others. However, I _personally_ do believe crates are the more sensible and safe choice, at least in the beginning, and certainly with some pups. 
Neglectful? Your words, not mine. Some people don't mind popping to the toilet and leaving their 2 year old alone in the living room. Some people would never dream of it. 
I wouldn't call it neglectful to do the first, thats a strong term. But it only takes one incident, in a few seconds, for disaster.

You may think its 'ridiculous' to crate a young pup when you go out of the room, I think its ridiculous NOT to crate a young pup when it can't be supervised, not to mention risky. 
I wonder....have you ever had a high drive puppy? Find the video on youtube of the mal puppy demonstrating what a high drive pup is like. That was my dog at that age. 
It just _wasn't worth the risk_ to leave him alone with so many items around him that could kill him. Why risk it? If the puppy enjoys his crate, it seems a win win situation, to me. 
Happy puppy in a place he loves to be, and safe from the 100 items in this room alone that he could damage himself on. Whats the downside, exactly? Im struggling to see it.

I know some people who don't 'get' crates like to use emotive language to get their point across, but its really misplaced and silly to say 'ridiculous to crate the *poor puppy*'
What? Seriously.....what?!
Why such emotive terms for having a pup go into an area he loves to go in, and keeps him safe? I don't think Dresden would agree with your 'poor puppy' term with regards to his crate. He is a far more sorry puppy when the crate isn't there, believe me.

How did people survive without crates? They threw the dog in the basement, or in the garden, or chained it up outside, and so on. You think that just because crates weren't about, people didn't confine their dogs somehow? They did, just in far less pleasant and safe ways. I had the same conversation with my mum a while back and said I wondered what people did before crates, and she told me the dog was thrown into the garden, or garage, or tied up. 
Give me a crate any day!
At least in the crate, Dresden can see me, hear me, be close to me, and he can choose to be in there, and to come out, if he wants. Rather that than a dog chained up outside or locked in a basement, or even a dog someone gets rid of because they can't stand it destroying things.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

xMaloreyx said:


> Reminds me of my friend's sister, who got a puppy, and has basically dumped it on my friend, they don't use a crate or enclosure at all for the puppy. They got it at 7 weeks old, and now it's about 9 / 10 weeks old, and he doesn't destroy anything, and will go to the bathroom on the puppy pads near the door if he needs to, if not let out when need be. We also raised my Miniature Schnauzer from 6 weeks old without needing a crate, and he was another who was not destructive, and would use puppy pads if need be. I know not all puppies / dogs will be like this, but we didn't feel the need *to throw them in a crate or enclosure *right away, and it's worked for us.





Dogless said:


> I have never thrown a puppy in a crate - *why do you assume that those of us who use them are somehow cruel and neglectful*? I make it a nice place, that is gone to willingly (and voluntarily much of the time). I absolutely disagree with puppy pads but don't automatically assume that those who use them are worse dog owners than I am.


Well quite. Certainly no "throwing" of any puppies going on here either 

I too disagree with puppy pads. I think they're lazy. Plus a bit stupid too. Train the puppy to go on this pad... THEN you've got to train him/her to go outside  Pointless and a bit daft.  <---- big cheesy grin to show it's okay to be slightly offensive.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Coffee said:


> Well quite. Certainly no "throwing" of any puppies going on here either
> 
> I too disagree with puppy pads. I think they're lazy. Plus a bit stupid too. Train the puppy to go on this pad... THEN you've got to train him/her to go outside  Pointless and a bit daft.  <---- big cheesy grin to show it's okay to be slightly offensive.


Puppy pads are wonderful...............for lining the rabbit hutch! I agree, no point teaching a dog to go in one place, then confusing him by training him to go somewhere else.


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## xMaloreyx (Jan 3, 2013)

We always just use puppy pads as a place for them to go when maybe we miss them needing to go out, or at night if we don't get a chance to let them out at a certain time. Never been any confusion for ours. They always learn to go outside just fine right with using puppy pads here and there, for what I mentioned above. 

ETA: Simba stopped pottying in the house after about a week. Sounds pretty good to me!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Coffee said:


> Well quite. Certainly no "throwing" of any puppies going on here either
> 
> I too disagree with puppy pads. I think they're lazy. Plus a bit stupid too. Train the puppy to go on this pad... THEN you've got to train him/her to go outside  Pointless and a bit daft.  <---- big cheesy grin to show it's okay to be slightly offensive.


Haha, I must be lazy then as Alfie did use them for a few weeks.

There was a few reasons though as we live in forest land and it is heavy with a lot of foxes, he had a tummy bug and no first vac so the vet said best to keep him inside on pads.

I must say though he was soooooo good both on the pads and then as soon as he was outside he only wanted to go in the garden and would sit by the table at 11 weeks for his collar to go in the garden. We went through a good few bags of the pads though as he didn't miss!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Shadowrat said:


> I wouldn't say its the way _everyone_ should raise their puppy, simply because I'd never dare lay such a blanket statement on all dog owners. Im not into that. I'll leave those 'my way or the highway' statements to others. However, I _personally_ do believe crates are the more sensible and safe choice, at least in the beginning, and certainly with some pups.
> Neglectful? Your words, not mine. Some people don't mind popping to the toilet and leaving their 2 year old alone in the living room. Some people would never dream of it.
> I wouldn't call it neglectful to do the first, thats a strong term. But it only takes one incident, in a few seconds, for disaster.
> 
> ...


If you read my other replies then you will see I have used crates but I do not consider them something to use if you leave the room. What is your puppy, some sort of monster!

And what a load of rubbish about what you do if you dont have a crate. My puppies have never been thrown in the garden, garage or tied up. Why the heck should they be! I used to have my dogs outside in a kennel and run at night and when I was at work but they were not 'thrown' anywhere and when I was in the house so were they whether I was in the bathroom or the same room as them or wherever. It has never crossed my mind that my dogs need supervising every minute of the day.



Phoolf said:


> I think Blitz seems to be the only one here is on both sides of the fence. It seems (although I may be mistaken) that those who argue against crates have never used them so are perhaps coming from a slightly uninformed stance, whereas those who have switched over or who have used them for some dogs and not others seem to have more pursuasive and informed arguments, imo.


I trust you mean that in a good way. I would not say I am on both sides of the fence so much as have my own views on them. I have used crates, I can see the point of them but I truly think they are vastly overused by a lot of people.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

No. I don't think reasonable use of crate as training aid or as a temporary safety measure is cruel. I do think locking a dog in a crate 24/7 is cruel - but that is not crate _training_. I think using a crate for the entirety of a dog's life (most dogs anyway - there will be exceptions) is probably unnecessary - the aim should always be towards "graduation" from crate confinement.

I have been pleased with crate training as a method and will use it as a starting point with all future dogs - Hugo graduated his crate much younger than Oscar so I think in further dogs, with improved understanding having done the process a couple of times now, the crate training period will start to become minimal.

Careful crate use has not only toilet trained them but they have never destroyed anything and they both know how to settle in the house (which dogs of their breeds often don't quite get!). Tripple whammy for me and I will do it again.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blitz said:


> If you read my other replies then you will see I have used crates but I do not consider them something to use if you leave the room. What is your puppy, some sort of monster!


My puppy is a year old now. I can leave the room for brief periods and not worry too much about him, particularly if he has a kong. But would I leave him more than 10 or 15 minutes? No. Not at this stage. He might be ok, he might not. And its that 'might not' that makes me err on the side of caution.

And when he was very young, I didn't leave him unsupervised for a single second. Not because he was a monster, but because he was a _puppy_, a _baby_, an _infant_.
I leave my adult rats to free range on my bed unsupervised for as long as they like, I know they'll just flop down and sleep. Do I leave the babies unsupervised for even a minute? Not a chance. They'd be in something, leaping off the bed, into the mattress in seconds.
I like to supervise young animals until such a time when they are not going to do silly things which can hurt or kill them. I make no apologies for that.



Blitz said:


> And what a load of rubbish about what you do if you dont have a crate. My puppies have never been thrown in the garden, garage or tied up. Why the heck should they be!


I never said _you_ did. 
I also never said _everyone_ did before crates.
The question was what did people do before crates and the answer is, for many, that an alternative restriction was used, and sometimes one not as nice as a crate.



Blitz said:


> It has never crossed my mind that my dogs need supervising every minute of the day.


Your dogs are presumably adults, and possibly of a temperament that makes them more trustworthy?
Once again, all dogs are different. Breeds differ in their destructive tendencies, individuals differ too within those breeds. 
As I said earlier, my friends bulldog puppy would just flop down and sleep whenever she was home, had little interest in doing anything else, she is very low energy. I wouldn't see a problem with leaving a pup like that unsupervised for longer.
But some puppies are on the go all the time, higher energy, higher drive, and much more likely to get into trouble: they're all different.

Some toddlers can be left with minimal supervision and play happily with their toys, I was like that as a kid. Some will start drawing on the walls or putting things in their mouths the second you're not watching intently (that was my brother).
How many disasters have occurred to kids because the parents thought they'd be fine alone for 'just a minute'? 
A puppy is an infant. And having seen enough of them come through the vet doors when I worked there to have multiple foreign bodies removed, that was enough to scare me into keeping an eye on my puppy, intently so in the early days. Better safe than sorry.
And why is that a problem? You still haven't really answered that. If a dog loves their crate, where is the problem at all in putting them in it for their safety when they can't be supervised? I fail to see a downside. Pup is happy in the crate, and they're safe. 
If a puppy despises its crate, well, thats a completely different issue. Mine never did, he was happy with it from a very early age.

As he gets older, he can be trusted with less and less supervision. But when he was very young? Not a chance.

Im not saying _you_ should crate _your_ dogs, I don't really care what you do with your dogs. I credit you with enough intelligence to realise that you know your dogs better than I do and will do what is best for them. 
So credit me, and other crate users, with the same intelligence.
If we crate our pups, its because we know its best for _our dogs_. I fail to see how anyone can object to that?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Shadowrat said:


> My puppy is a year old now. I can leave the room for brief periods and not worry too much about him, particularly if he has a kong. But would I leave him more than 10 or 15 minutes? No. Not at this stage. He might be ok, he might not. And its that 'might not' that makes me err on the side of caution.
> 
> And when he was very young, I didn't leave him unsupervised for a single second. Not because he was a monster, but because he was a _puppy_, a _baby_, an _infant_.
> I leave my adult rats to free range on my bed unsupervised for as long as they like, I know they'll just flop down and sleep. Do I leave the babies unsupervised for even a minute? Not a chance. They'd be in something, leaping off the bed, into the mattress in seconds.
> ...


You are still not getting it. I have nothing against crates used as most people use them, for the dog to sleep in and for young pups to be put in when left on their own for an hour or two.

But to put a pup in its crate when you walk out of the door for something - to me that beggars belief. If I had a dog that was that difficult to own I would find no pleasure in it. And your dog is a year old - that is not a pup.

My current dogs are 2 and 3, their crates had disappeared by the time they were respectively 6 months old and I have never had any other pups in crates. I have had several puppies over the years. They fit into my life which includes going to the bathroom or cooking a meal or whatever. they are dogs, you cannot compare them with children - though I certainly would not 'crate' a child if I walked out of the room either. You have to expect the odd bit of damage to your property and be careful where you put things down. I have had dogs that are shoe mad so any shoes left on the floor have been demolished - it just takes a bit of care and thought while they are young. And yes I have had lively pups that are in to everything - that describes all pups unless something is wrong with them. I have also had working breeds that have a lot of energy but I would only have that sort of breed if I wanted to work them in some way and occupy their brains so that they have no need to be a pain at other times.

I like to enjoy my dogs and I would find stressing about them all the time and having to put them in a cage every time I went out of the room would take all the pleasure out of owning them and turn them into a chore.

Each to their own though and if you enjoy keeping your dog like that it is up to you. I expect you will ease up with your second dog.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I think Blitz seems to be the only one here is on both sides of the fence. It seems (although I may be mistaken) that those who argue against crates have never used them so are perhaps coming from a slightly uninformed stance, whereas those who have switched over or who have used them for some dogs and not others seem to have more pursuasive and informed arguments, imo.


I have had a crate which was used for staying at family members - Although it became a coat stand in the boot room for a couple of years and hence sold. (It actually became a temporary home for an injured baby Owl after selling it on ebay )

I can 100% understand why people use them properly - for young pups and to ensure safety.

I dont understand adult dogs beng crated for long period 7-8 hours while people work - and over night of course. I have no problem with dogs being left for longer periods of time - That would make me a hypocrite but I think they need the freedom to potter about - fling a toy around etc.

I have no problem at all when they are used correctly - In fact I looooove Kilos / Rudi's 'cupboards'! lol :001_wub: And think it to be an excellent idea 

I just dont understand the crate being the 'solution' to problems. Just like Joe Bloggs will get a Halti and yay Dog can walk to heel Joe Bloggs can get a crate and leave dog in there for extended periods when its a hassle to have their dog around. Which some people sadly become reliant on 'getting the dog out the way'. And as we know a dog only learns to be calm and involved around the family by exactly that by being involved in elements of family life.

I do understand there is nothing wrong with crates as a tool - Its the user.

I would consider using a crate with a future dog - but I wouldnt choose to use one before trying a dog proofed kitchen first  A crate wouldnt be my first choice and wouldnt be buying one automaticly in prep for a puppy as a standard piece of 'kit'.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Blitz said:


> You are still not getting it. I have nothing against crates used as most people use them, for the dog to sleep in and for young pups to be put in when left on their own for an hour or two.
> 
> But to put a pup in its crate when you walk out of the door for something - to me that beggars belief. If I had a dog that was that difficult to own I would find no pleasure in it. And your dog is a year old - that is not a pup.
> 
> ...


I never considered that people actually put the dog in a crate every single time they leave the room for something. Perhaps that is why they end up in the crate all the time when the person is moving about the house and doing housework, whatever, because it is hardly worth keep letting them out and in again.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> I would consider using a crate with a future dog - but I wouldnt choose to use one before trying a dog proofed kitchen first  A crate wouldnt be my first choice and wouldnt be buying one automaticly in prep for a puppy as a standard piece of 'kit'.


This is just as I feel. I would see how the land lied first, if my puppy was then so destructive to need one then yes I would get one.

I really don't think they need to be first on the list of all puppy buyers.



Shadowrat said:


> But some puppies are on the go all the time, higher energy, higher drive, and much more likely to get into trouble: they're all different.


Alfie was a puppy who was ALWAYS on the go too, very high energy and into everything.
He got into some trouble, but wasn't put away every time I left the room.



Shadowrat said:


> How did people survive without crates? They threw the dog in the basement, or in the garden, or chained it up outside, and so on. You think that just because crates weren't about, people didn't confine their dogs somehow? They did, just in far less pleasant and safe ways.


I'm sorry but that is just not true!!! Fine it is what the abusers of dogs did before crates but you will find they most likely still do this.

What I believe Blitz means is what did the everyday owner who has no intention of abusing their dog do? The answer is got on with day to day life with the dog in the home.

So not everyone who in years gone by had dogs put them in the basement or shut them in the garden?

People used to have dogs without crates in the family home all the time and they still do today!!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I have used a crate on a couple of occasions for Flynns covelescane and that was because I have had to, no other choice than to keep him confined at that point. I think they are great for using in that way and all the posters in the hip replacement diary used then for a time too but none used them before and all of us couldn't wait to put them down and get back to normal. Great when needed but totally unnecessary as far as we are all concerned for any other time. I wasn't even aware of keeping a dog in a crate until I joined the Mal forum in 2008 and was quite honestly shocked. I have never had a dog so confined, they've always had at least one room to themselves if not the run of the house. 

As for puppy pads being lazy - what do you do then? run around after the pup even when you aren't at home, not possible and rather a pad than a pup pooping in its bed in a confined crate as is so often posted on here. The videos I posted show pups of four weeks old using their pads which were then moved near to the door and then just outside it into the garden - what could be easier than that? By eight weeks not one pup was peeing/pooing in the house if the door was open and if it were closed a couple of pads were near it to save accidents and regression. I can't see what's lazy in that and with eight to train it worked brilliantly!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> I just dont understand the crate being the 'solution' to problems.


Well I'm not sure what other solution I could have come up with with Rupert. He simply liked to chew and no matter what exercise he'd had before being left, no matter what toys or chews I left him with, no matter how short a time he was left he chewed my house. I filmed him, he didn't appear to be at all anxious, he just settled down to gnaw on part of the house. I couldn't stay home with him 24/7, couldn't take him with me every time I went out, couldn't afford to pay someone to sit in with him every time I went out so a crate was the solution when nobody was home. And not a temporary one either. So I guess it depends what the problem is and whether there actually is another solution.

I don't agree with people crating their dog because they can't be bothered with them but people like this will find a way to isolate their dog even without a crate. I don't know many people in real life who actually use a crate but I know a hell of a lot of dogs who spend most of their days shut out in the garden. And a couple who are shut in one small room of the house.

It's never occurred to me to crate my dog when I leave the room. It's never occurred to my dog that I am capable of going from one room to another without an escort :laugh:


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Zipper was far more stressed being confined to the puppy proofed kitchen than he was being crated and in the lounge where everything was familiar to him.
For him it was much worse being shut in a room that we hardly went in, apart from to prepare food and clean up, than to be crated in a room that we all relaxed in and he was close to our smells and it was more familiar and relaxing surroundings for him.
He was crated with a tall puppy play pen attached when we were out until he was reliably toilet trained and could hold when we were out. 
He then had the freedom of the lounge-dinner & small kitchen.
He still has a crate and will choose to go in it when he wants peace and quiet - visiting children are taught not to approach the dogs when they are in their beds(crates). 
It is the dogs safe place and when we have lots of visitors and food abut they can be closed in for the safety and sanity of all


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Well I'm not sure what other solution I could have come up with with Rupert. He simply liked to chew and no matter what exercise he'd had before being left, no matter what toys or chews I left him with, no matter how short a time he was left he chewed my house. I filmed him, he didn't appear to be at all anxious, he just settled down to gnaw on part of the house. I couldn't stay home with him 24/7, couldn't take him with me every time I went out, couldn't afford to pay someone to sit in with him every time I went out so a crate was the solution when nobody was home. And not a temporary one either. So I guess it depends what the problem is and whether there actually is another solution.
> 
> I don't agree with people crating their dog because they can't be bothered with them but people like this will find a way to isolate their dog even without a crate. I don't know many people in real life who actually use a crate but I know a hell of a lot of dogs who spend most of their days shut out in the garden. And a couple who are shut in one small room of the house.
> 
> It's never occurred to me to crate my dog when I leave the room. *It's never occurred to my dog that I am capable of going from one room to another without an escort :laugh*:


But it isnt a solution is it  Surley its a coaping strategy? A way of not letting your dog fail..

Just like an owner may use a Halti as a tool to help whils tcontinuing to train fr loose lead walking with the end result graduating from the Halti and transferrin the training back to a flat collar.

The Crate is not a long term solution - You ideally dont want to be relying on a crate for the whole of a dogs adult life.. Whilst using the crate training and investigation continues into *why* the dog is an exsessive chewer (It could be as simple as having become a learnt behaviour) and of course monitoring controlling it when out of the crate. The crate does not solve the behaviour just like a Halti doesnt solve the ability to walk to heel. 

Ditto with the last point - Its great though isnt it :001_wub:


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Bobby loves his crate we got him large lab size from day one, so loads room goes in on his own accord : D


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Baileys crate has been put down last night, but for a week the doors been left open at night.

She hasn't chewed a thing. She knows the rules lol. She's a 10month old lab and isn't even bothered in chewing. I think that's due to her being crated at night.

I couldn't not crate her, iv got two children so hen they want to eat tea in living room ect she could go in her crate to relax. Now she just lies next to the kids lol


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

No, the crate didn't solve the behaviour as such but it certainly stopped him from being able to practise it. I honestly think with Rupert he just liked to chew and the furniture and woodwork were more to his taste than anything I could safely leave him with. He didn't chew them if we were home after the first few weeks but obviously learned that if the house was empty he could chew to his hearts content.

Ideally I don't want Spencer to have to be crated his entire life like Rupert was but I'll do it if it seems necessary. He's not a power chewer like Rupert but he'll jump and climb in search of things which worries me, have visions of coming home to find he's pulled the freezer over on himself or something. Hopefully with a bit of maturity we'll be able to leave him loose when we're out. I keep meaning to leave him loose when hubby drives me to the shop since we're only gone about 10 minutes but he just goes into his crate and lies down when he knows we're going out and I automatically shut the door


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Milliepoochie said:


> I have had a crate which was used for staying at family members - Although it became a coat stand in the boot room for a couple of years and hence sold. (It actually became a temporary home for an injured baby Owl after selling it on ebay )
> 
> I can 100% understand why people use them properly - for young pups and to ensure safety.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify that Kilo hasn't been confined anywhere whilst I go out etc since he was a puppy - the gate is there for if delivery men etc come to the door or workmen need to come through the house! .

I also don't crate Rudi when I leave the room; just when I leave the house - he is out whilst I do the housework / have a shower etc. He was crated when I showered or hoovered initially as I didn't want to leave him alone with Kilo when I couldn't hear them for a while.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Just to clarify that Kilo hasn't been confined anywhere whilst I go out etc since he was a puppy - the gate is there for if delivery men etc come to the door or workmen need to come through the house! .
> 
> I also don't crate Rudi when I leave the room; just when I leave the house - he is out whilst I do the housework / have a shower etc. He was crated when I showered or hoovered initially as I didn't want to leave him alone with Kilo when I couldn't hear them for a while.


Ditto with Millie - She was shut in the kitchen for the first couple of weeks incase but now just leave her 'loose' - Sorry wasnt suggesting that the boys are shut away at all. 

If Rudi is anything like Millie then they are there to help with house work - ie glare evillay at hoover - catch falling dusters and generally lie exactly where you need to stand 

I had to point out the boys 'dens' as I think they are so tastefully done


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Milliepoochie said:


> Ditto with Millie - She was shut in the kitchen for the first couple of weeks incase but now just leave her 'loose' - *Sorry wasnt suggesting that the boys are shut away at all.
> *
> If Rudi is anything like Millie then they are there to help with house work - ie glare evillay at hoover - catch falling dusters and generally lie exactly where you need to stand
> 
> I had to point out the boys 'dens' as I think they are so tastefully done


I wasn't sure . Rudi likes to "help" - Kilo just retreats to his bed or the sofa!


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blitz said:


> And your dog is a year old - that is not a pup.


Actually, it is. Talk to dobe people, or actually, any large dog people and they will tell you a year old is still very much a puppy. He's not a YOUNG puppy, not a baby, but he is certainly not an adult, and dobes of a year of age, or large breeds in general, are commonly still called puppies at one year. They are a slow maturing breed, particularly the males. I more often than not hear year old dobes called 'puppies', because they're certainly not adults at 12 months.



Blitz said:


> You have to expect the odd bit of damage to your property and be careful where you put things down.


I don't care about damage to my property. Everything in this house is second hand or from a charity shop (first home and all, no cash to buy new things) so it doesn't matter if it is damaged. I don't care about that. I care about my _dog_ being damaged or hurt, not my furniture, as others here have also explained.



Blitz said:


> Each to their own though and if you enjoy keeping your dog like that it is up to you. I expect you will ease up with your second dog.


Depends on the dog.
If it was a dog like Dresden, I would certainly still have a crate. Individual dogs and individual methods, you know.....
There are many here who are not first time owners like me who also do as I do. Just because its not how YOU do it, it doesn't make it wrong.

I am perfectly happy with crate usage. In fact, when I went on a dobe forum and asked people at what age they left their dog uncrated for good, most people were still crating when there pup was dresden's age. Some still crated to 2 or 3. Others said their dog would never be trustworthy without the crate, while their other dogs could be left out without issue.

Do I ENJOY crating my dog? Thats kinda the wrong word. I don't get a thrill out of sitting watching him go in it. But I do feel happy that he is happier with it in his life, and that I am MUCH less likely to be rushing him to the vet for surgery any time soon.
Good enough for me. And if he is happy that way, again.....whats your issue?

If you're happy keeping your dogs the way you do, so be it, up to you.
But I've gone past caring what people who don't know me and don't know my dog think they know about how we live  Just get on with your life, and we'll get on with ours. And when/if the day comes where this method is problematic or he is not happy with this system, or he demonstrates no need to be crated periodically, it will change.
Until then......I fail to see the problem.

Im done here. Its going in circles and people just aren't getting what the other side is saying. Bottom line, my pup is happier with the crate around, he is safer, and it suits him. He is not happy when it is removed. 
I, and anyone else who crates and realises the benefits, do so because we know our dogs best. Im not telling you how to keep your dogs, refrain from telling me or others how to keep ours.
Im sure there is plenty you do with your dogs that I don't consider correct or necessary. Who cares? If your dogs are happy and fulfilled, whats the problem?

Im also not sure where people are getting the thing about crating whenever you leave the room? I don't do that.
I did in the first week or two, if only because of toilet training and wanting to keep an eye on him for that. But now? No, I don't crate him whenever I leave the room, never said I did, that would be......strange. If Im out of the room in the shower, and might be 20 minutes or so, I'll sometimes still crate him, because we have cats. 
But if he's quite settled and chewing on a kong or something, I'll leave him be.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

We have 2 crates here, one up permanently and one folded up behind the sofa just in case its needed. 

We use/have used them for:
Toilet training Kira, Keyu and Diesel
Stopping Keyu and Kira from eating the house
Putting the dogs in when we have visitors who dont want them jumping up (mainly my mum!)
Keeping Diesel from running about when he hurt his paw
Stopping Keyu from annoying the other 2 when she was a pup
Crate rotation once Diesel started attacking the others, crates prevented deaths in this case im sure!

And currently Kira is crated at night and when we're all out as I caught her taking a dump on the floor the other night (she has literally JUST been outside and had come in of her own accord), so I think its her thats been doing it overnight as our garden is boggy after a lot of rain, so she's waiting until we're out or in bed. Now its become a habit which we need to teach her (again!) is wrong. 

We also have a baby gate seperating the front and back rooms, I imagine that the gate and the crate with both come in handy with a small baby, so I can safely leave the room without having to wake him up! Just bundle Kiz and Grey behind the gate and Keyu in the crate (she jumps the gate) and baby is safe 

Having crate trained dogs also means that if ffor whatever reason my dogs need to be transported in a crate (on a ferry/plane for example) they can do so with minimal stress as they are used to confinement. 

All our dogs are happy and comfortable in the crate if they need to go in, even though Keyu is no longer locked in she still chooses to go in there to sleep sometimes, and will run in there when she hears the treat tin!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

When Flynns crate was up all three Mals would choose to sleep in it now and then, I felt a bit mean putting it down but it was a huge unsightly thing that took up too much space and with three huge unsightly hairy things as well I'd sooner not have it around. 

I would never sell it though in case I ever needed it again. I think they are great if they're left open for the dogs to choose and great if you have a very destructive puppy - would have saved our sofa when Marty was a pup but I wouldn't want to shut any of the dogs in one once adult because by then Id expect them to be behaving themselves if I'm not here, which thankfully they do even though they are in separate rooms just in case a fight should kick off!.


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## Sphinx111 (Jan 4, 2013)

Crate training is only cruel if you do it wrong. Just by the fact you are doing some training, its better than what a lot of irresponsible owners do.

Just put up a blog post on this topic actually, check it out here: Introduction to the Dog Crate

Regards,
Ed


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Milliepoochie said:


> I would consider using a crate with a future dog -* but I wouldnt choose to use one before trying a dog proofed kitchen first*  A crate wouldnt be my first choice and wouldnt be buying one automaticly in prep for a puppy as a standard piece of 'kit'.


You see my understanding of crate training is that it is useful to prevent destructive behaviour EVER happening and therefore they NEVER find chewing "forbidden" items rewarding and once they are past the exploring everything with mouth stage they just don't think to start chewing things that they have never found rewarding to chew...

So the point of the crate is that it IS the first port of call and a standard piece of kit. Rather than letting the dog chew on stuff and using the crate once the behaviour has occured... which would probaby make crate confinement a necessity for longer in the long run - if that makes sense.

I do see your point - why use it if there is no problem? But by using it in the first place the problem can be avoided and crate use can be over a shorter time frame.

Each to their own of course - just clarifying the logic of using the crate before a problem occurs.


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