# Creatine levels in cats



## FEWill (Sep 2, 2009)

Creatine levels in cats are always a very fine line, but high creatine levels in your pet can be absolutely catastrophic. If your cat does test positive for high levels of creatine, it is a warning sign of several problems and all of them are bad. High levels indicate that your cat may have kidney failure, dehydration, some type of a toxicity, or poor overall circulation. It may also be the first warning that you have that your cat may have a urinary obstruction or is about to go into shock.

But there is one major problem; you may not have the luxury of having your cat tested for creatine levels, and as a result, you may never know it is high until it is too late.

Creatine levels in cats ideal range is 0.8 mg/dl, and the safety range is considered by most veterinarians to be between 0.4 and 1.2 mg/dl. Mg/dl is the traditional unit form of measuring blood glucose in your cat. The major source of creatine for any living entity, including your cat, is raw fish and raw meat.

There are several arguments on both sides about feeding your cat either of these sources, but most owners do not fully understand the real dangers that high creatine levels in cats can produce.

What is Creatine?

Creatine is the end product of what is referred to as phosphocreatine metabolism, which is a critical component of your cats muscle contraction capability. In 1927, labile phosphorus was actually discovered in the resting muscles of cats and it was named phosphocreatine. However, creatine is and has always been a very natural component of skeletal muscle.

It is very well estimated that wild animals can and do survive very safely with much higher natural creatine levels, especially wild cat such as lions or tigers.

But your cat is not a wild animal, and high levels can very easily take there life or put them in catastrophic health situations. Creatine is obtained by your cat directly from skeletal food muscle, such as meat or fish. During the digestive process in your cat, the creatine that is contained in these food sources travels directly to your pets blood stream, where it is than transported into their skeletal muscle and absorbed.

If your cat does not get enough creatine from their diet because they are being fed a veterinarian diet, it can be just as devastating as levels that are too high. In fact, too low of levels can technically starve your cat to death. If your cat system does not have enough creatine, it will attempt to pull it form amino acids that they can naturally synthesize. Once this occurs, it will nutritionally start the starvation process.

For this reason, the creatine levels in cats must be a very fine balance. It promotes muscle anabolism in two different ways; it increases the energy reserves as well as cellular activity, which in turn promotes proper metabolism.

How Creatine Works:

Creatine levels in cats must be at the optimal levels for it to work properly as it increases the energy available for your cats muscles to work properly. The cells in your cats body store their energy in the form of a molecule known as ATP, and the amount of work their muscles can adequately perform depends on the proper storage.

Creatine enhances the physical performance of your cats muscles by increasing the number of times that this molecule is recycled during routine or extreme exercise; however, it does not increase the amount that is stored in your cats muscle structure.

Creatine enters your cats muscles from their blood and their body harnesses the energy of sodium entering into their cells to move it forward. Creatine transporter activity is than enhanced by high levels of glyemic foods, or foods that produce sugar in your cats blood. However, not all muscle types in your cat respond equally to create creatine. The muscles in your cat can be either fast or slow reacting, and the fast muscles mediate your cats ability to move abruptly.

Slow muscles do not rely as heavily as fast muscles, but they still play a major factor in endurance and normal functions.

Dangers:

Creatine levels in cats can not exceed the danger levels, and although there are several arguments about the benefits of raw fish and meat for cats, there is one certainty; high levels are catastrophic. Raw fish or meat contains the equivalent of five grams of pure creatine. Cooking drastically reduces these levels and helps to degrade creatine.

The side of the argument that will suggest that wild cats have eaten raw meat and fish since the beginning of time without doing harm is absolutely true, but again your cat is not a wild animal. If this were true, ask yourself why high levels cause kidney failure, dehydration, poor circulation, and even shock in some cases. And why do low levels cause liver disease or induce starvation in your cat?

Summary:

Creatine levels in cats are a very fine line and the only way you will absolutely know the actual level is to have your cat tested for it. It is a very simple blood test, but it is one that just may save your cats life. Feeding your cat raw fish and meat may be the trend in some places, but it is very easy to cook it and eliminate most all of the dangers. Simply cook it for a few minutes and your cat will receive all to the benefits without the risks.

Is it really it worth to jeopardize your cats health?

Liquid Vitamins for Humans Cats and Dogs


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

FEWill said:


> Creatine levels in cats are a very fine line and the only way you will absolutely know the actual level is to have your cat tested for it. It is a very simple blood test, but it is one that just may save your cats life. Feeding your cat raw fish and meat may be the trend in some places, but it is very easy to cook it and eliminate most all of the dangers. Simply cook it for a few minutes and your cat will receive all to the benefits without the risks.
> 
> Is it really it worth to jeopardize your cats health?


Oh dear - and here was me about to take the massive step of moving my own two adult cats on to a raw diet. But after reading this, I'm beginning to panic. 

My 9 yr old female was very recently diagnosed with early stage kidney problems. Her BUN and creatine levels were higher than they should be, but nothing too shocking, certainly not when her age is taken into consideration. I don't have the blood stats to hand, but I think her levels were 10-15% above what is considered "normal". She is (more or less) perfectly healthy. I have tried her on the specific veterinary diets for kidney problems, but she refuses to eat it, even when mixed with her regular food. As I have been through this with a previous cat(s) that just lost weight on the kidney diets, I have decided to stop using them.

Up until end of last year she was fed about 90% dry biscuits (Royal Canin) and about 10% wet (whiskas/gourmet/sheba). I'm now in the process of changing her over on to a majority wet diet. I've changed her dry food to Orijen, which now constitutes about 30% of her diet, and I've changed her wet food to the better quality brands (Almo, Porta, Cosma & the like) and these wet foods now form the majority (70%) of her diet.

I was seriously thinking of switching her to a raw diet, and am now middle in the longggg process of doing the reading up on raw diets… and to be honest (going on what I have read up until now) I thought that raw would be more beneficial for her because of the lower salt (phosphorous?) levels.

Are you saying that I'd be better keeping her on her current diet than even trying to switch her to raw?

Until the last few months of last year I'd never really spent much time researching cat nutrition… I just swallowed blindly what various vets have told me over the years, i.e: dry food from quality brands like Royal Canin, Hills, Iams & Eukanuba were the best.

Now I am pretty sure that "dry is best" is not true… but I must admit I am verrrrry confused about all the differing advice about what constitutes "best". :blush2:

My brain is at the point of overload. I want to do the best for my "kidney" cat (and my other cat, and my rescues) but I am beginning to think I need a far higher IQ than I have, and 10 years of feline nutrition research before I can make a semi-qualified decision. It really is so confusing.

Any opinions, from FEWill or anyone else, would be greatly appreciated.

I'm at a total loss.


----------



## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

I certainly would not be putting a cat with kidney disease onto a raw meat diet or any other diet high in protein. High amounts of low quality protein causes a massive work load for the already impaired kidneys. Unfortunately once a cats creatine levels are high on a blood sample 75% of the kidney cells are already damaged. All you can aim to do is help reduce the progression of the disease, the damage cannot be reversed as nephrons cannot regenerate. The aim of veterinary kidney diets is to provide lower levels of high quality protein to reduce the workload of the kidneys combined with low phosphorus levels and high levels of certain vitamins like B vits etc that can be low in cats with kidney problems. Low qaulity protein which can come in the form of animal tissue as well produces huge amounts of nitrogenous waste for the kidneys to have to eliminate resulting in more damage. Even high qaulity protein in high amounts is damaging and results in quicker progression of the disease. Specialist diets have been found to significantly increase life expectancy in these cats over a cat fed normal food. If your cat wont eat a prescription food then you can use phosphorus binders with normal food as the next best option. I have just lost a cat to kidney failure and I did not find out about it until it was too late for her. Some cats can survive for months and even years with kidney problems others are not so lucky. I would really be speaking to your vet, they have knowledge about nutrition in specific diseases, I would not be experimenting with a cats diet in this situation. Wet food may be better and more palatable for your cat plus will provide more water. Companies producing these foods have alot of knowledge on the subject far more than you could ever hope to achieve by researching yourself. It is ofcourse upto you what you feed your cat but raw food with a cat in kidney impairment is a big no no as far as I and my colleagues are concerned (big no no full stop is what they would say to be honest).


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Clare Ferris said:


> I certainly would not be putting a cat with kidney disease onto a raw meat diet or any other diet high in protein. High amounts of low quality protein causes a massive work load for the already impaired kidneys.


*New *thinking is that in the early stages of CKD is its not the protein level that is the most important and in foods it is quality of that protein the phosphorous levels it contains! End stage CKD is another matter!


----------



## ambercat (May 4, 2009)

Tje said:


> Oh dear - and here was me about to take the massive step of moving my own two adult cats on to a raw diet. But after reading this, Im beginning to panic.
> 
> She is (more or less) perfectly healthy. I have tried her on the specific veterinary diets for kidney problems, but she refuses to eat it, even when mixed with her regular food. As I have been through this with a previous cat(s) that just lost weight on the kidney diets, I have decided to stop using them.
> 
> ...


For a start - don't panic!  I feed a balanced raw diet (as well as other high meat/low carb commercial wet foods) and I currently have one cat with onset of renal failure, he eats exactly the same as my other cats and his blood creatinine levels havent changed significantly in 18 months, he's also on Fortekor which I believe has kept him pretty much stable too. My other two cats with renal failure (due to PKD) were both also on the same diet and both kept their muscle mass right up till the end really, which often isnt the case with low protein prescription diets, as you discovered previously.

Whats more important is to keep a check on phosphorus levels, by feeding good quality, highly digestible proteins, whether it be raw, or high meat wet commercial. It sounds like she's eating a pretty a good diet now anyway, certainly its better she eats more wet food than dry and theres no reason why you couldnt introduce some raw food if you wanted - I always think variety is good anyway. As Clare mentioned, phosphorous binders can be added to her normal food -IF, her phosphorus levels are high, if they arent high, then binders shouldnt be needed - but thats something you can keep an eye on with regular blood tests.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Everyone, thanks for your input, its much appreciated.

Clare, because we caught it early (so to speak) my cats kidneys are functioning at around 90% of what a perfectly healthy cats functions. So she really hasnt lost that much kidney function at all (especially for her age)  so thats the good news :smile5:. And although I might be feeding her high protein levels, its quality proteins Im attempting to give, so I thought that was okay? I am deliberately steering away from the high amounts of low quality proteins. And am I wrong in saying that raw diets often have lower phosphorus levels than even the vet prescription kidney diets and thats what I should be looking at for my cat (low phosphorus I mean)? In my postition what would you be feeding? 

Saikou, Ive been to two different vets in the last 4-6 weeks and had two completely conflicting sets of advice (both based on the same blood work)

vet # 1: said she has to go on a low protein vet prescription diet and she had to stay on it for life, even if it means she loses weight because she wont eat it . (insane, I know)... she did eat (grudgingly) on the prescription diet dry food I got from the vet, but the wet version she wouldnt touch at all, so he said I should put her on a 100% dry prescription kidney diet  even when I told him she is a terrible drinker, he maintained it was best. Mind you, this particular vet is a die-hard dry food fan and its very difficult to even get him to consider anything apart from Royal Canin or Hills dry food. 

vet # 2: was all for the raw feeding. I was initially looking at a ready made raw diet I can buy here (I dont live in the UK), just to see if she would take to raw and to buy me some time to continue my homework on how to do the whole raw thing myself. Anyway, this vet said this particular raw food company has a great reputation and their foods all have low phosphorous levels, so he was all for it. And he was dead against feeding her the prescription diet, especially a 100% dry one, as a) she isnt that sick and b) she simply wasn't eating the kidney-diet wet food. And as you said, vet #2 was basing his advice on the fact that my cats kidney disease is very early stage and it was low phosphorus levels I should be aiming for. 

But its so annoying (not to mention downright alarming) when two vets give you two sets of advice that completely and totally contradict each other . 

Ambercat, Just a great big fat THANK YOU! It did me good to read your post and your hands-on experience with your own cats. So the initial panic of this morning is over. What youre saying is more or less the same as what vet # 2 said. He also said should my lady have problems switching to raw I wasnt to panic as he felt the foods I am currently giving are perfect for her. Her phosphorus levels werent high (both vets even managed to agree on that one, lol) so no binders for the time being. And both of them said to check her blood again in 6 months time to see if fortekor was needed but that it wasnt necessary yet. I think Ill just go ahead and try mixing this ready-made raw through her wet food and see how she takes to it. Im so glad I almost have her off of dry food before this kidney thing struck. I swear she had a carb addiction after 9 years of Royal Canin dry food. But she is now thoroughly enjoying her new (predominantly) wet diet. Fingers crossed for the raw trial. 

FEwill, Id be interested in anything you have to add  in my position, what would you feed my cat?

Thanks again everyone, and anyone else who has anything to add, I'm open to any and all ideas and experiences.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

if you have done the research(and you obviously have) and know what you are looking for in a diet and have matched the food you want to feed to taht - then I see hno harm in feeding raw - in fact (in my honest and humble opinion) it is the best food you can give your cat fullstop! As for feeding dry to a cat with kidney problems, who doesn't drink much AND doesn't like the food -- that's just ridiculous! Surely she needs to eat! And in the end giving her a good quality of life it what is important - not extending a bad quality life (which it is if she is constantly losing weight cos she doesn't like the food) by a few measly months. Feed her the raw and watch her be happy.


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Vet #2 sounds more clued up and forward thinking to me. I have never understood why dry for a cat who needed to drink to help flush toxins was a good idea, it just doesn't make sense. One vet told me, it makes them thirsty and drink more - but thats just to overcome the dehydrating effects of the dry not to help add extra fluid into their diet   Surely if a vet understood completely a cats nutrional needs then they would be able to explain alternatives to their prescription diets what to aim for what to avoid, but they can't - prescription diet is their only answer and if your cat won't eat it then you are left in limbo

Having had 2 cats go through CKD/CRF, one who lived for 5 1/2 yrs with the issue and another who only lived a few months and seeing what has happened to other people, there is certainly not one size fits all approach that can be taken to fight this, if you get the chance.

In the UK, vets seem to know very little about CKD/CRF they have a stock response that used to be dry prescription diet + steroid injections and drip when they get bad, but now that seems to be dry/wet prescription + fortekor + drip. I would read all you can on fortekor too as from what I have read its only really useful in some circumstances, it doesn't suit all.

It does very much count on the stage at which you catch the disease and obviously how fast that disease is progressing. You can throw everything at it and lose them very quickly or get incredibly lucky and manage to maintain them long term. Its the speed of that progression which no one can predict all you can do keep them in the optium health possible whilst trying to eliminate the things that progress the disease further.

You could try this site for more information on a more natural approach http://www.holisticat.com/forum/


----------



## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Tje said:


> Oh dear - and here was me about to take the massive step of moving my own two adult cats on to a raw diet. But after reading this, Im beginning to panic.
> 
> My 9 yr old female was very recently diagnosed with early stage kidney problems. Her BUN and creatine levels were higher than they should be, but nothing too shocking, certainly not when her age is taken into consideration. I dont have the blood stats to hand, but I think her levels were 10-15% above what is considered normal. She is (more or less) perfectly healthy. I have tried her on the specific veterinary diets for kidney problems, but she refuses to eat it, even when mixed with her regular food. As I have been through this with a previous cat(s) that just lost weight on the kidney diets, I have decided to stop using them.
> 
> ...


If your cat is happy to eat raw then feed raw, if she is happy to eat her current food then stick with it- the most important thing is that that she will eat at the moment. There is no evidence that starting a renal diet now wil slow the progression of renal failure.
I would however try her with a renal diet when she does start to go into renal failure. Meat is in fact rich is phosphorous which is the main problem in cats with renal failure, not protein as is commonly thought. A renal diet which is low in phosphorous will reduce her symptoms and make her feel better, which can only be a good thing surely.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Spid & Saikou,I agree with you both, dry food for a cat with kidney problems is just senseless.

I got that tired old line thrown at me too by vet #1 (dry makes them thirsty and they drink more). Honestly, it made me want to swat him! He also have me some spiel about gum disease being prevented by dry food and caused by wet food and gum disease was something that causes kidney problems. Apart from not understanding what he was on about, my cat's teeth & gums are perfect!

When I asked him politely about raw feeding he reacted genuinely horrified as though I had suggested declawing her or chopping her tail off to use as ear-muffs. I think his exact words were something along the lines of _"that's absolutely the last thing you should be doing. It's not good for any cats and certainly not for a cat with kidney problems" _(except he said it with such a tone of utter disdain that it was as if I was suggesting something cruel and heartless).

To sum up, vet # 1 really wasn't any use at all except for performing the blood tests and relieving me of some money. 

Vet # 2 is definitely more forward thinking. He was open-minded, helpful and was infinitely more useful to me with practical tips for getting more fluids into my cat (cat fountains, special bottled "cat water" with taurine added to it (which she loves, lol, and I never even knew it existed), a bit of whiskas cat milk every day, water mixed through her wet food, saving the water/stock from boiled chicken for her and so on).

Vet # 2 also gave me the number for a German vet who is one of these new fandangled "holistic vets". She trained as a regular vet, but now only does homeopathy/acupuncture/nutrition advice and so on. We have a consult with her next month (but without taking the cat with us as it's just too long a drive - we're in Holland at the moment). The amazing thing is, this holistic vet's standard consultation fee is €55 (about £50) which I thought at first was very steep, but it turns out it's for an hour long consultation - compare that with consultation fees of regular vets of €23 (about £21) and those consults are never longer than 8 or 9 minutes or I have to pay double! So I am hoping this German holistic vet can help with all my feeding questions and I am assured she will absolutely not have a bias towards the Royal Canin, Hills etc. I'm scared she'll have a heart attack when I turn up with my notebook full of questions. Poor woman 

Thanks again both of you. I'll definitely have a look at the holistic pet forum, but I will have to wait until my brain gets out of this current overload mode. It seems like I am reading new stuff daily and just can't take it all in at such a fast pace. Oh the joys of being in my 40s, hehe, I swear I was sharper when I was younger.

FEwill, I'm still interested in your opinion regards raw, because it does seem to be somewhat at odds with the opinion of many posters in here, myself amongst them (although admittedly I am still at the theory stage  but hope to have my first practical "raw trial" in the next week or so).


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

mollythecollie said:


> If your cat is happy to eat raw then feed raw, if she is happy to eat her current food then stick with it- the most important thing is that that she will eat at the moment. There is no evidence that starting a renal diet now wil slow the progression of renal failure.
> I would however try her with a renal diet when she does start to go into renal failure. Meat is in fact rich is phosphorous which is the main problem in cats with renal failure, not protein as is commonly thought. A renal diet which is low in phosphorous will reduce her symptoms and make her feel better, which can only be a good thing surely.


Thanks to you too!

And I definitely do plan to take the "see how it progresses" route.

I spoke to someone from the "ready made raw food" company on the phone, and checked their website, and if I'm not mistaken, their phosphorus levels were really quite low. I checked the levels against all the main kidney diets on Tanya's website and it faired really quite well. Off the top of my head (but don't quote me on this, as - like I keep saying - my poor brain is fried at the moment) it was slightly higher in phosphorous than SKD (Specific Kidney Diet) and Hills KD, but was slightly lower than the Animonda renal diet and another brand leader renal diet. And it was much lower in phosphorous than whiskas/friskies/gourmet/sheba and the like.

And I do agree that anything that makes her feel better is what I want - but there in lies the problem. She did not at all _like_ the renal diet.

OK, she tolerated the dry. But I want her off dry (for the reasons I went in to above). And it wasn't that she enjoyed it, it was more "_well, it's all I am getting so I suppose I had better eat it"_. But the wet renal diet food she flatly refused to eat, even when mixed with her favourite wet foods.

And I have been through this with other CRF cats in the past (I do quite a bit of rescue work so have a lot of cats coming and going through my home) the weight just fell off them on the renal-diets and it seemed to make them sicker instead of better. One foster cat had a vast improvement when we put him back on his whiskas and dumped the expensive Hills KD.

I think I would be a lot more open for a renal prescription diet if I could see my cat was actually enjoying eating it and appeared to be doing well on it. But with this lady (and other cats in the past) its like they hate the bland taste of it and barely eat enough of it to survive on.



But anyway, thanks again for your opinion, I really do appreciate it.


----------



## FEWill (Sep 2, 2009)

Hi all,

First, I must restate that I am not a vet, nor do I claim to be. But I do have an MBA and write articles every day for several sources and research each article in detail and have numerous articles published. 

Both of my daughters have a couple of cats and I send them every article. Both called today with the same concerns.

Creatine is essential for cats, but I told them to quickly sear the raw meat before you feed it their cats. By rapidly heating you will kill all of the bad stuff so to speak and still reap the benefits of the raw nutrients. 

I firmly believe after my research that raw meat if not seared or cooked is extremely dangerous and will stand by that

Thanks,
Frank


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks for your response FEWill.

I cant argue with anything you said, its your opinion and youre certainly entitled to it.

But I do a 10 second search on google and I find this:

Dr. Anna Maria Gardner on CRF:
"A natural raw food diet can be very beneficial to cats with mild to moderate renal failure

whole article can be found here:
Feline Chronic Renal Failure CRF Feline Kidney Disease

I just feel I am constantly being bombarded with totally conflicting advice about what to feed my cats. One source says it great and I want to start raw feeding tomorrow then the next source its terrible and I should abandon the idea.

LOL, thats not your fault, so its not a dig at you  . I just wish there was some kind of broad consensus on feline nutrition, much in the same way there is a broad consensus in the human world about what constitutes a healthy diet.

For every article or individual promoting a raw diet, Im sure there will be as many articles and individuals knocking raw feeding. It just makes it so confusing for folks like me.

With every conflicting article I read I get a new wrinkle, a few new grey hairs and my BP goes up.


----------



## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

All I know is what I have been taught and that is when you get raised urea and creatine then 75% of the nephrons are damaged any lower and it wont show up on bloods but may show in urine. You can get a urine protein creatine test done from a urine sample. You say your cat has raised levels yet still maintains 90% functioning nephrons? Im sorry but I dont get this when 75% of the cells must be damaged for the blood levels to be raised. High protein wheter it be low or high quality increases the workload of the kidneys now obviously high amounts of low quality protein produces more waste but I believe the protein levels should be fairly low. I always think of it like an old worn out engine in a car the more mileage the quicker the car will give out.I dont know why I think that but it is abit like how the kidneys work. for me. If the blood levels are raised then the kidneys are significantly damaged so you need to reduce the workload on them as much as possible. I am not sure where this new thinking that protein levels are not important in early stage renal insufficiency comes from I have certainly never read any recent articles in vet press to say this and neither have any vets I have spoke to. Obviously as things progress you will get raised phorphorus levels and then you need to think about things more carefully. 
As I said if it was me I would try a renal food and if the cat would not eat it then I would go for a lower high quality protein senior cat food which should also be low in phosphorus, but raw meat is all protein and I just think that type of diet is certainly not suitable for a cat with kidney problems no matter how well they seem. My cat seemed well initially and then crashed and with no warning signs. Each cat is different and some progress faster than others and arent so lucky. There is medication available that can help with blood flow to the kidneys as already mentioned. I agree it can be confusing just as some are for raw others against it . It is my opinion and that of the vets I work with thats all it is entirely upto you wheter you choose to follow it or other advice advocating a raw diet. Obviously she needs to be on a food she will eat as you dont want her to starve but there must be a senior food out there that has low levels of high quality protein that she will eat. Regular bloods tests will also be needed to monitor progression of disease. At least you have caught it now while she still wants to eat


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Clare Ferris said:


> All I know is what I have been taught and that is when you get raised urea and creatine then 75% of the nephrons are damaged any lower and it wont show up on bloods but may show in urine. You can get a urine protein creatine test done from a urine sample. You say your cat has raised levels yet still maintains 90% functioning nephrons? Im sorry but I dont get this when 75% of the cells must be damaged for the blood levels to be raised.


Clare, maybe it was the urine test that showed raised levels and not the blood work - I'm not sure to be honest. All I know is both vets were pretty much of the opinion that while her kidneys are not perfect, they're not that bad either. And also just looking at her, how healthy she appears, it's not comparable to the cats I've had in the past with proper CRF where it was obvious they were ill. Vet # 1 said she had early stage CRF. Vet # 2 said he wouldn't even class her as "renal failure" more "renal dysfunction", but he did expect it would progress to renal failure but of course could say nothing about how slow/fast the progression would be.

Tanya's website (ww.felinecrf.org) gives a good explanation of the 4 stages of CRF and I'm assuming my girl falls into stage 1.
Stage 1 (0%-30% kidney function lost)
Stage 2 (60%-75% kidney function lost)
Stage 3 (75% -90% kidney function lost)
Stage 4 (90% + kidney function lost)



Clare Ferris said:


> I am not sure where this new thinking that protein levels are not important in early stage renal insufficiency comes from I have certainly never read any recent articles in vet press to say this and neither have any vets I have spoke to.


Oh the information is definitely out there. The new thinking goes roughtly along the lines of: High quality proteins are fine, it's just the low quality proteins that are not advocated (for early stage CRF) and many sources also conclude that lower phoshorus levels are far more important than lower protein. I have even read that lower the protein levels of the traditional renal diets are dangerous. (lol, I said it the information out there was totally contradictory, I wasn't joking) But I absolutely admit that what you're saying is also out there too. It's just that line of thought is beginning to be classed as outdated by some/many in the cat world.



Clare Ferris said:


> There is medication available that can help with blood flow to the kidneys as already mentioned. I agree it can be confusing just as some are for raw others against it. It is my opinion and that of the vets I work with thats all it is entirely upto you wheter you choose to follow it or other advice advocating a raw diet.


And that's my whole problem... there is no nutrition consensus in the animal world, even for nutrition for healthy cats, let alone CRF cats. At least in the human world we all more or less know what we should be eating. Also in the human world we don't have doctors that double up as food sellers.

Vet #1 is the old school, "there's a Hills or Royal Canin dry food for every stage of a cats life from weaning to death. They are the best. Don't feed anything else". I can't rely on this information as he has vast financial motivations to provide this line of information. Besides, the shift away from dry foods in the feline world is pretty universal nowadays. And a mainly dry food diet really isn't what I want for my cats, certainly not one with early stage kidney probs who has never been a good drinker.

Vet #2 is certainly more open minded and helpful, but who do I listen to? Whose advice do I take? They contradict each other. Vet #2 agrees with me that dry food is not the way to go, while that is the first (only!) choice of vet #1.

I am hoping this holistic vet in Germany can explain things to me in more detail. But I swear I will blow a fuse if I get yet another set of conflicting advice. 



Clare Ferris said:


> Obviously she needs to be on a food she will eat as you dont want her to starve but there must be a senior food out there that has low levels of high quality protein that she will eat. Regular bloods tests will also be needed to monitor progression of disease. At least you have caught it now while she still wants to eat


I have only tried two senior foods to date (Whiskas senior and Animonda Vom Feinsten senior, and she will eat it, but again grudgingly, so she doesn't eat much of it. So I think/know she is going to lose weight if I press the issue. It's a fine balancing act, I don't know what I should be aiming for:
a) lower phos/protein senior diet with slight weight loss because she tolerates it, but doesn't actually like it
b) low phos low protein renal diet with greater weight loss because she hates it
c) let her eat what she enjoys and allows her to maintain a healthy weight (and try to do that with as low a phosphorus level as possible, and try to make the proteins as high quality as possible)

Right now I am doing "c" but I am so not sure as to the wisdom of that choice :crying: . But I feel "b" and "c" are not good for this particular cat at this moment in time. As well as weight loss I am pretty sure she'll get depressed (stressed) if I start forcing the food issue. Food has always been the way to her heart, not that she's obese or greedy, she's just happier and visably more (mentally) content on a diet she actually enjoys. I know this because when (years ago) she was slightly overweight and I put her on a "light" diet she was ever so unhappy and unresponsive for a whole 6 months. Put her back on her old diet (90% Royal Canin dry and 10% whiskas wet) and she was back to her happy old self.

Oh dear, I think I'll go bite my nails or pull my hair out. 

I cannot wait for the day that a degree of consensus on feline nutrition comes around. I wish vets were banned from selling food. That way I would at least feel they were giving me impartial nutritional advice. And I wish vets could get their act together and actually agree (in broad terms) as to what constitutes a healthy diet.

Clare, thanks very much for sharing your thoughts... I do really appreciate it, even if it appears I am just moaning, lol. I just feel torn in two very different directions by all the conflicting advice.


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

FEWill said:


> Raw fish or meat contains the equivalent of five grams of pure creatine.


Whhhhooooooaaa

Sweeping generalisations in there!

For the quote: How much raw meat... what type of raw meat... which organ, type of muscle, each one will give different levels and a properly balanced raw diet for a cat will NOT cause damage. You have given no figures to back up your information!

You are advocating cooking a cats raw diet. ok fair enough. but NOT ONCE did you think to put a warning about cooking the bones! Seriously dangerous omission! 

Some information for people

*500g of supermarket type minced beef wil contain approx 1.5g of creatine!

500g of chicken breast will contain about 0.8-1g of creatine

500g of fish contains approx 2g of creatine

Bone is a poor source of creatine as it is found in muscle!

*

OK some other problems here. Creatinine is produced by the kidneys. If is the natural by product of breaking down creatine in the diet. However cats with renal failure can produce higher creatinine levels as their kidneys are not functioning properly, this does not mean that you are feeding too much creatine. Creatine is VITAL in a well balanced diet, and it is also produced by the cats liver and pancreas!

There is more damage to be done to failing kidneys, putting them under much more stress by feeding a dry or poor quality diet.

It is perfectly safe for a healthy cat to eat up to 1kg (3g creatine) of raw red meat in terms of the creatine levels! In a cat with CRF i would be looking at swapping it over to the chicken  (not that many cats here would eat 1kg a day! )


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Billyboysmummy, More food for thought. Thank you very much. 

Good point, the generalization of &#8220;meat&#8221; is a very broad term and for total novices like me it&#8217;s great to know what foods have the high and low levels. 

And I did wonder about that 5 grams figure - it&#8217;s pretty pointless saying &#8220;raw meat and fish contains 5 grams of creatine&#8221; when we don&#8217;t even know if this 5 grams is present in a single portion, 500gs or a kilo. It would be a bit like saying &#8220;peanuts have a 250 calories&#8221;, without qualifying that statement with &#8220;per 100grams/per 500grams&#8221; or whatever. 

Now I know my cat would have to consume about 2½ kilos of chicken breast to get that 5 grams. 

Yipee, I&#8217;ve learned something today! 

Thanks.


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Tje said:


> Billyboysmummy, More food for thought. Thank you very much.
> 
> Good point, the generalization of meat is a very broad term and for total novices like me its great to know what foods have the high and low levels.
> 
> ...


You are more than welcome, and its HIGHLY unlikely that your cat woud eat 2.5kg of chicken breast in a day   and so is very unlikely that your cat will be ODing on creatine.

Remember too that a very muscly cat will also have higher than average creatinine levels.


----------



## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> Whhhhooooooaaa
> 
> Sweeping generalisations in there!
> 
> ...


Creatine levels in meat are completely irrelevant. Creatine levels in the diet do not correlate well with levels of creatinine in the blood, and anyway high levels of creatinine in the blood are completely harmless to a cat- they are only used by vets as a measure of kidney function. UREA in the blood is what you want to decrease when a cat goes into kidney failure- increased urea in the blood causes symptoms such as vomiting and oral ulcers and is what generally makes cats feel awful.


----------



## dingledangle (Sep 25, 2008)

This thread is a very interesting read.
My cat (15yrs) has CRF, diagnosed last december after her thyroid was removed.
She was bad for a couple of weeks, was put on a drip twice, but has recovered since. I give her daily subQ fluids and her condition is stable and the urea/creatine values are back to normal.

She is though a very fussy eater. She used to be fine on Hills or RC senior food, but the Hills renal food is not to her taste. She refused to eat wet food to my despair, as I think wet is better than dry food.
ATM she is eating pets at home own brand of senior dry food or orijen senior dry food. 
her appetite has decreased since december, she has lost about 600 gram in (4.7 to 4.1 kg) total, but her weight has been stable for the last 3 months. 
I just wish she would eat a little more. We have tried appetite enhancers (oops, the name fails me now, metazapine, a anti depressant used to increase appetite in pets), but it did not really make a difference. 
She doesn't drink a lot, but as she gets 100 ml subq fluids a day, this is a lesser problem. I tried to syringe feed her, but the amount she actually swallows is so little, so i gave up as it stressed her out too much
Now I add ipakitine to her food, as it would help flush the toxins.

When I give her boiled chicken, prawns... she runs to the food and meows with enthousiam, but she does not eat one bit of it.

I feel quite helpless as this is one thing I do not have a remedy for
Can I add any other vitamins to her food? The vet gives during her check up a vitamin shot, but is this sufficient?


----------



## Clare Ferris (Nov 26, 2009)

when cats have crf it is unfortunately only a matter of time before they fail completely as nephrons cannot regenerate once damaged. Cats with this condition get a build up of urea in blood making them feel sick which in turn makes them not want to eat, subcut fluids can be administered at home as you are doing but quite often a cat may need iv fluids to flush out the toxins building up from impaired kidney function. Is you cat on any nausea medication? There is medication to help the condition but not cure it. I unfortunately lost one of my cats to this condition recently and it is sad but unfortunately there is little that can be done and all you can do is help support the kidneys. I would speak with your vet about further treatment to help if she is fairly well in other respects.


----------



## FEWill (Sep 2, 2009)

Hi Tje,

I am almost done with my research on raw for cats--it is very intersting on both sides

Should have it done in the week or so

Thanks,
Frank


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

FEWill said:


> Hi Tje,
> 
> I am almost done with my research on raw for cats--it is very intersting on both sides
> 
> ...


thank you so much. I'll be looking out for it.


----------

