# please help sexing my kittens



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

My cat has just had a litter of kittens and i am struggling to tell the sex of them please can anyone help? many thanks x


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

hi and welcome.

i'm guessing, but i'd say male, female, male?

i'm not a cat person- i'm sure someone who knows what they are talking about will be along soon!

can we please see their faces to?


----------



## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

hneale1980 said:


> My cat has just had a litter of kittens and i am struggling to tell the sex of them please can anyone help? many thanks x


How old are the kits ... If the distance is greater from anus to the second hole it's a boy ... Females have a shorter gap plus bits look like a slit... I would say boy girl boy, you will get a better idea when older.. Also they are some pics online you can look at


----------



## GingerJasper (Oct 29, 2012)

That's what I thought Kodak but was waiting for a breeder or someone with more experience than me to comment.


----------



## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

1 and 3 I would say def males, the angle on number 2 is not really easy to tell..


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

Hi thank you for your reply & help here is a beautiful piccy of mum and babies


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

they are nearly 2 weeks old now, we thought number two mite be a girl but wasnt quite sure. many thanks x


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Rather gorgeous :001_wub: Is mum a Havana?


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

No she is an oriental blue dad is a lilac siamese . All the babies are gorgeous tempted to keep them all lol  x


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Beautiful - she looks darker in the photo - a big litter you have there too :thumbup1:


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

Yeah she does doesnt she, think she has got darker from coping with the stress of all the kittens :laugh: shes a fab mum x


----------



## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

What a gorgeous collection of colours you have there!


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Photo 2 isnt that clear but i would say 3 males.


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

thank you, cant quite tell what the two orientals will turn out colour wise not sure if they may go a bit darker with age but looks like there are 2 blue point siamese and a poss red point too :0) x


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

They are beautiful kittens, sorry i cant help with the colouring as i dont know the breed very well, i only breed the mc's. xx


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

this is another picture of kitten number two if this is any clearer ? x


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Im sure thats a boy. is there a slit looks like an (i),
I would say im 99% sure a baby boy. xx

Just re-checked photo's again, 100% sure they are all baby boys. xxx congratulations.


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

thank you :0) what confused me was that one n three have big b...s and number two seem tine :0( bless him lol x


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

My litter was the same, it went from boy, girl, no defintely a boy.

Hopefully Spid will be along soon, she also breeds and is the genetic expert.


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

so hard to tell isnt it  x


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

It is sometimes very difficult, even my vet got my kitten wrong but at 9 weeks old his pom poms came in clearer. (then he had them chopped off, bless him).


----------



## Guest (Mar 26, 2013)

What are the others?


----------



## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

hneale1980 said:


> this is another picture of kitten number two if this is any clearer ? x


boy 
3 little fellas


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

hneale1980 said:


> thank you, cant quite tell what the two orientals will turn out colour wise not sure if they may go a bit darker with age but looks like there are 2 blue point siamese and a poss red point too :0) x


Hi sorry to dissapoint but you cant get red point from that particular mating, is there any Cinnamon or Fawn in the Mum and Dads pedigrees?

Is the boy your own or did you go out to stud? If out to stud did stud owner advise on colours you would be able to get from the mating.

Lovely kittens but them I am biased where Orientals and Siamese are concerned!


----------



## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

lisajjl1 said:


> Hi sorry to dissapoint but you cant get red point from that particular mating, is there any Cinnamon or Fawn in the Mum and Dads pedigrees?
> 
> Is the boy your own or did you go out to stud? If out to stud did stud owner advise on colours you would be able to get from the mating.
> 
> Lovely kittens but them I am biased where Orientals and Siamese are concerned!


what colour are the little gingery type kittens classed as?


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Would need to know what was running colourwise in the pedigrees on both sides to be able to give an educated guess but just for comparison this is a pic of some of my gingery ones.....Cinnamons and Fawns.


----------



## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

I am not an oriental fan personally but I like the cinnamon


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Lucy1012 said:


> I am not an oriental fan personally but I like the cinnamon


Wondered when OP said one kitten looked like a red point as its a very rich reddish hued colour but I am only going on pic and that comment - its unusual to find a Lilac Point stud carrying these colours.....I know they are not easy to find as after months of searching with no luck have just made the 'questionable' decision of keeping a little boy back as he is just that....a Lilac Point carrying those colours!!!!! I already have two boys so we are now a little boy heavy!!!!


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

hneale1980 said:


> thank you, cant quite tell what the two orientals will turn out colour wise not sure if they may go a bit darker with age but looks like there are 2 blue point siamese and a poss red point too :0) x


You'll only get blue and lilac from that mating, as said red isn't possible.

If both carry cinnamon you can get fawn, not cinnamon as 2 dilutes can't produce a dense colour.

Colour testing is inexpensive, and it's very helpful to know what each cat carries.


----------



## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

There is something odd about chocolate and cinnamon isn't there? do they act the same or something, so a blue carrying cinnamon but not chocolate can produce chocolate kittens if mated to a lilac for example?


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

hneale1980 said:


> thank you, cant quite tell what the two orientals will turn out colour wise not sure if they may go a bit darker with age but looks like there are 2 blue point siamese and a poss red point too :0) x


There is no way you can get red from blue x lilac. You also can't get black/seal or chocolate.

If the blue carries chocolate you can get blue & lilac, otherwise just blue - Oriental blue & blue-point Siamese.

BTW 3 boys in my view.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Alaskacat said:


> There is something odd about chocolate and cinnamon isn't there? do they act the same or something, so a blue carrying cinnamon but not chocolate can produce chocolate kittens if mated to a lilac for example?


Nothing odd about chocolate & cinnamon. A cat is always one of three colours - black, chocolate or cinnamon. It can all be hidden under red or dominant white, but that's the basic score.

But you are right in that blue _can _carry chocolate or cinnamon, chocolate _can _carry cinnamon and cinnamon can't carry either of the other two colours.

So, blue carrying cinnamon x lilac carrying cinnamon can produce blue, lilac or fawn. My blue girl carries cinnamon, if I took her to a Havana (chocolate) carrying cinnamon and dilute I could get all 6 colours - black, blue, chocolate, lilac, cinnamon or fawn. If he carried siamese I could get them all in Siamese as well, as her mum is a siamese so she carries it!

However usually the Wicked Gene Fairy would produce a litter of blacks.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

100% 3 males, looks like I got here a bit late though.


----------



## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

so this lady has the 3 colourpoints and the other two are?? from the flash they don't look lilac


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

From that extra picture as well, I would say you have all boys there. 

Colour wise - you won't get any reds. I'm not up on fawn and cinnamon, but OS seems very wise on that so I'd go with that.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> My blue girl carries cinnamon, if I took her to a Havana (chocolate) carrying cinnamon and dilute I could get all 6 colours - black, blue, chocolate, lilac, cinnamon or fawn. If he carried siamese I could get them all in Siamese as well, as her mum is a siamese so she carries it!
> 
> However usually the Wicked Gene Fairy would produce a litter of blacks.


I've got 3 cinnamon carriers at the moment (blue, choc and lilac), current boy doesn't carry cinnamon  Hopefully new boy will, but like you said that wicked fairy likely won't give me a cinny baby, evil one she is.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

There's also the Wicked Boy Fairy when you want a girl, and the Wicked Girl Fairy when you want a boy..

OP, am intrigued. There are more than 3 kittens in the litter but only 3 kitten photos put up for sexing - the three Orientals. The Siamese seem to have missed out!


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I know Bomber carries dilute and chocolate, and the stud she is going to is cream (therefore dilute) and carries cinnamon. Apparently the choc and cinn will work together and I can get chocs from that mating. It will be interesting to see how that is expressed or whether it a funny shade of choc. I'll also get lilacs - again no idea if they will look like pure lilacs. It will be interesting. Order is in for a long haired curly lilac tortie smoke - so bound to get all boys and all black.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> OP, am intrigued. There are more than 3 kittens in the litter but only 3 kitten photos put up for sexing - the three Orientals. The Siamese seem to have missed out!


One of the bottoms appears white, the others blue. But in the second photo they don't look blue at all, they look more lilac in the group shot.

No idea on creams or reds Spid, they're not in my breed  But do think you have a possibility of choc. Order the opposite colour, coat and sex than you want


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

spotty cats said:


> One of the bottoms appears white, the others blue. But in the second photo they don't look blue at all, they look more lilac in the group shot.
> 
> No idea on creams or reds Spid, they're not in my breed  But do think you have a possibility of choc. Order the opposite colour, coat and sex than you want


Reds and creams I can do easy peasy as that my fav colours. Cinnamon I hadn't come across until the SRs.

From this litter (sorry to threadjack) I'm expecting long or short hairs, curly or straight, smoke or self. Black, blue, choc and lilac boys and girls the same but tortie.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

spotty cats said:


> You'll only get blue and lilac from that mating, as said red isn't possible.
> 
> If both carry cinnamon you can get fawn, not cinnamon as 2 dilutes can't produce a dense colour.
> 
> Colour testing is inexpensive, and it's very helpful to know what each cat carries.


How interesting. Just out of curiosity what colour would these 'gingery' looking kittens actually be then? Clearly they can't be red; they can't be cinnamon as both parents are dilute. I did think the lovely mum looked a 'muddy' shade of blue which made me think 'dilute modifer'. But I am pretty clueless on these colours, having a breed where they don't (or are said not) to exist.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> How interesting. Just out of curiosity what colour would these 'gingery' looking kittens actually be then? Clearly they can't be red; they can't be cinnamon as both parents are dilute. I did think the lovely mum looked a 'muddy' shade of blue which made me think 'dilute modifer'. But I am pretty clueless on these colours, having a breed where they don't (or are said not) to exist.


I imagine it's the light making them gingery. A photo taken beside a north-facing window on a bright or sunny day will give much more accurate colour, and including a square of white or neutral grey paper would help as it will show how accurate the colour in the photo is.

It's also possible caramel is in there, but again without seeing photos taken in good light... Indoor lighting can make any blue / lilac / fawn look like it's caramel.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> I imagine it's the light making them gingery. A photo taken beside a north-facing window on a bright or sunny day will give much more accurate colour, and including a square of white or neutral grey paper would help as it will show how accurate the colour in the photo is.
> 
> It's also possible caramel is in there, but again without seeing photos taken in good light... Indoor lighting can make any blue / lilac / fawn look like it's caramel.


Thanks for that and, yes, true that lighting/flash photography can be a big factor... having taken pictures of my own (pale) cream kittens in artificial light with poor results. Would be interesting to see some photos of the kittens in this thread in daylight when a little older.


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

Hi thanks for all the advice and thoughts etc. colour wise i thought little one mite have been red as he has no colour and the other two siamese have distinct blue ish ears and nose etc dont mind what colour he turns out to be though cos he is such a cutie:0) the two orientals look more lilac than blue to me but im not sure if they will poss darken?. Mum is a blue oriental and the stud is a lilac siamese which i was told carried some cinimum and red( i have also a copy of the studs pedigree citificate) I didnt put any piccys of the other two boys up as their bits look just the same as number 1 and 3 . x


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

here i have two more piccys of the kittens im not sure if anyone can see the colouring any better :0) x


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Niggly question i have in my mind.

1. are you a registered breeder?

2. are these kittens oriental x siamese, if they are, is there any particular reason for doing cross breeds instead of pure breeds.

They are beautiful but i have no idea on colours so cant help there.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I couldn't and wouldn't comment at all on colours as I've no knowledge whatsoever of your breed  Curious though, the 'gingery' coloured kittens.. are the photos a very close representation of what their colour actually looks like or are they in fact a very different colour to how the photos make them look?


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi in first pic the Oris look far more Lilac than in original photo, second pic more gingery again.

Can you take pic as suggested in natural daylight, no flash against white background when you get a chance and not upsetting Mum as would be really interested to see how the colour develops, although as Orientals are born the colour they are I wouldnt expect any major changes to happen apart from colour becoming more obvious as more fur grows and the coat becomes a little denser.

Little mystery Siamese may well be Lilac then hence lack of colour at this stage.


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> Niggly question i have in my mind.
> 
> 1. are you a registered breeder?
> 
> ...


no im not a registered breeder this is my first breeding and i was looking for a mix of kittens oriental and siamese. x


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

catcoonz said:


> Niggly question i have in my mind.
> 
> 2. are these kittens oriental x siamese, if they are, is there any particular reason for doing cross breeds instead of pure breeds.


Re question two....GCCF Reg policy accepts Orientals in Siamese pedigrees and vice versa with some exceptions and restrictions though on which registers kittens may be placed on dependant on what is in the pedigree i.e non bicolour Siamese progeny of a Bicoloured Oriental x Siamese mating are placed on ref register until 5 gens clear of bicolour but the on bicolour Oriental progeny from the mating would be CSSR full reg.

The registration policies when you start looking at some Oriental x Siamese matings can take some getting your head round!


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

hneale1980 said:


> no im not a registered breeder this is my first breeding and i was looking for a mix of kittens oriental and siamese. x


Are both the stud and Mum on the Active register?


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Thankyou for answering my question.
I would have helped sex the kittens anyway, i was just interested to know if there was a shortage of stud orientals or siamese.

With my breed i found it difficult to have a stud available for my queens all the time so chose to get my own boy, find it easier this way as my queens get stressed going to stud.

Hope you will stay and keep updating photo's, i would love to watch them grow and learn the colours.


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

lisajjl1 said:


> Re question two....GCCF Reg policy accepts Orientals in Siamese pedigrees and vice versa with some exceptions and restrictions though on which registers kittens may be placed on dependant on what is in the pedigree i.e non bicolour Siamese progeny of a Bicoloured Oriental x Siamese mating are placed on ref register until 5 gens clear of bicolour but the on bicolour Oriental progeny from the mating would be CSSR full reg.
> 
> The registration policies when you start looking at some Oriental x Siamese matings can take some getting your head round!


I really do learn something new everyday. Thankyou, i find this very interesting.
I thought i had problems with the silver series of my breed, glad i dont have this added headache aswell.


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Yes I have 2 tier litters from my Seal Point siamese girl who has bicolour in her pedigree if she is mated to an Oriental....her Siamese kittens cant be shown but her Orientals are fine and can be. All are GCCF registered and pedigree though. 

As can be expected by this and the general rule of fate the Siamese are always show stoppers and the Orientals look like they belong to next doors British!!!!!! 

Obviously if you stick within the correct breeding policies for the required 5 generations eventually you get away from the Ref register and can end up with Siamese that can be fully registered and shown but it can and would take years!!!!


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

my cat is not registered no but the stud is. x


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

hneale1980 said:


> my cat is not registered no but the stud is. x


Ohhhh I see.

That means none of the kittens are actually pedigree Siamese or Oriental in this case as cant be registered with any registry or even have ancestry confirmed so just to clarify my response to question 2 was related to Active registered pedigree Siamese and Oriental matings only and not breeding from unregistered cats.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Another one :mad2::mad2:


----------



## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

hneale1980 said:


> my cat is not registered no but the stud is. x


Why did you choose to breed her then?


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Op you are doing absolutely nothing for the breed. Why do you breed this way?


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

hneale1980 said:


> Hi thanks for all the advice and thoughts etc. colour wise i thought little one mite have been red as he has no colour and the other two siamese have distinct blue ish ears and nose etc dont mind what colour he turns out to be though cos he is such a cutie:0) the two orientals look more lilac than blue to me but im not sure if they will poss darken?. Mum is a blue oriental and the stud is a lilac siamese which i was told carried some cinimum and red( i have also a copy of the studs pedigree citificate) I didnt put any piccys of the other two boys up as their bits look just the same as number 1 and 3 . x


Red is never carried, it is always expressed. Suspect the Siamese kittens you can see colour on are blue-point and the other lilac-point. The mother would have to carry cinnamon as well to produce any fawn kittens - since they are both dilute colours (blue & Lilac) they cannot produce cinnamon.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If the stud is on the active register his owner is very remise in accepting an unregistered queen, or one not on the active register...

If his on the inactive register his breeder would almost certainly be livid if they knew he was being used as a stud - unless they themselves are indulging in this sort of BYB-type breeding...


----------



## CockerRags (Jan 30, 2012)

If breeders sell unregistered kittens, then surely _they_ need to be questioned.
It's the OP's personal choice to breed her cat, there is no law against it no matter what peoples views on the matter are.

Why is a "registered" cat breeder letting her stud mate unregistered girls?

I have 6 pedigree cats, 2 registered, 4 unregistered. (Definitely all pedigrees, I don't need a piece of paper to prove this to me).
The 2 with GCCF papers came from breeders who never discussed whether they should be bred from or not and I was never asked to sign any contracts, neither were they vaccinated. 
The conditions these two cats were kept in were far poorer than the houses of the "BYB's". 
One of my GCCF girls was almost feral when we had her as the breeder kept her queens and kittens in an outside shed with very little human interaction. A year later and she is starting to trust us and come to us when called.
The other GCCF girl came to us sneezing and spread cat flu to some of the others, resulting in one of them nearly dieing. 2 weeks later after a stay at the vets she came home but I was £700 less well off.
Problems I've had with my unregistered girls... none. All well socialised, chunky and healthy, two of them had also had vaccs before being re-homed with me.

Not all "registered" breeders are great and vice versa.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> If the stud is on the active register his owner is very remise in accepting an unregistered queen, or one not on the active register...
> 
> If his on the inactive register his breeder would almost certainly be livid if they knew he was being used as a stud - unless they themselves are indulging in this sort of BYB-type breeding...


GCCF's regs on this are a bit weird. Owners of registered studs may accept queens who aren't registered at all (with GCCF), yet would incur a penalty fine (if found out of course) for taking in a non-active registered queen. Of course, queens registered with a different governing body may be accepted so long as not endorsed 'not for breeding'.

I'm not condoning *anything* other than breeding from two, correctly, actively registered cats. I just find GCCF regs on this a little baffling.


----------



## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Cockerags I agree with you in part, I have come across some very dodgy registered breeders and some very responsible BYB...


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

I chose to breed my cat with the chosen stud as it was the only lilac one i found available closest to where i live. I also chose to breed her as i was so taken with her and her nature i wanted more cats . my mum and my sister were also looking for a kitten and they couldnt afford the £400+ for one that registered breeders are looking for .x


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Be clear I'm not suggesting everyone should buy a pedigree cat - I'm not. 

However if people can't afford the purchase price when they are planning to spend the money, what will happen if they get an unexpected bit vet bill? Insurance isn't cheap either, and it's a toss-up if you will (over the years) win or lose with it.

There is also no guarantee her kittens will have the same personality.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

hneale1980 said:


> I chose to breed my cat with the chosen stud as it was the only lilac one i found available closest to where i live. I also chose to breed her as i was so taken with her and her nature i wanted more cats . my mum and my sister were also looking for a kitten and they couldnt afford the £400+ for one that registered breeders are looking for .x


If they cant afford to buy a kitten how will they afford a expensive vet bill.


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Be clear I'm not suggesting everyone should buy a pedigree cat - I'm not.
> 
> However if people can't afford the purchase price when they are planning to spend the money, what will happen if they get an unexpected bit vet bill? Insurance isn't cheap either, and it's a toss-up if you will (over the years) win or lose with it.
> 
> There is also no guarantee her kittens will have the same personality.


wether people choice pay £400+ for a registerd kitten or not they still may come across unexpected vets bills ontop of the extra money cost to buy the kitten. This way my family and i saved on costs towards other kittens so we can pay more towards quality cat foods and any vets bills that may pop up etc. x


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

You have to understand that it costs alot of money to purchase a pedigree active queen, they have to be of the right standards for breeding.
There maybe a reason why this girl is sold as pet only and not on the active register.
Have you asked the breeder or studied the pedigree line to ensure there are no health issues or genetic faults.

Obviously byb's are many and no matter what anybody does, nobody can stop them unless all pets sold are neutered before leaving the breeder.

I just hope for the kittens born you have studied both pedigree's well enough to ensure nothing is wrong within the lines.

I dont understand why a breeder would have registered and non registered cats that they use for breeding, surely its easier to have them all registered.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

CockerRags said:


> If breeders sell unregistered kittens, then surely _they_ need to be questioned.
> It's the OP's personal choice to breed her cat, there is no law against it no matter what peoples views on the matter are.
> 
> Why is a "registered" cat breeder letting her stud mate unregistered girls?
> ...


I take it your registered kittens are on the non active. Does the breeder know you have bred the girls im sure he/she would be livid.


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> If they cant afford to buy a kitten how will they afford a expensive vet bill.


they can afford to buy a kitten but instead why not save the money towards poss vets bills etc???


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Its obvious if you have an active queen, you can register the kittens.
If people dont breed to perfect the lines, what is the actual point in breeding.


----------



## Tamiyamumma (Sep 13, 2012)

I am in no way schooled up on this matter but it is something that has become very interesting to me. Now I am in the market for a pedigree kitten as one or two might know and I am bafelled but all the GCCF and TICA rules and regs but one thing that is glaringly obvious is that registered breeders have the needs of their chosen breed at heart and bettering then not just providing cheap kittens for family members.

What would have happened if she needed a c sections and have you discussed with your relatives the necessity of spaying so that this doesn't get out of hand in the future?


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

hneale1980 said:


> wether people choice pay £400+ for a registerd kitten or not they still may come across unexpected vets bills ontop of the extra money cost to buy the kitten. This way my family and i saved on costs towards other kittens so we can pay more towards quality cat foods and any vets bills that may pop up etc. x


You need to seriously realise what you could be breeding,i bet my life these cats arnt health tested,what happens when you sell someone a kitten why dies from genetic issues.

You don't even know your genetics so why are you breeding? Not to mention you couldn't even sex your kittens,i do this from birth never got it wrong yet.


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

hneale1980 said:


> I chose to breed my cat with the chosen stud as it was the only lilac one i found available closest to where i live. I also chose to breed her as i was so taken with her and her nature i wanted more cats . my mum and my sister were also looking for a kitten and they couldnt afford the £400+ for one that registered breeders are looking for .x


I am sorry but this is a poor argument for breeding and the first thing I would say to anyone who told me they couldnt afford to buy one of my kittens would be then how are you going to afford vets bills and decent food/litter etc for the cats lifetime.

This would be enough of a red flag for me to turn someone down as a propective owner at the first opportunity....I would worry myself sick that the cat would be denied medical care, decent nutrition and also lack of committment so may be rehomed if finances were tight and worsened.

I dont let pet kittens go for anywhere near 400.00 although I should as this is approx what it costs me to raise them properly for 13 weeks, care of Mum, vaccinations etc....and the rest! I work to subsidise my breeding hobby - also think you will find excellent pet kittens, healthy, well raised by caring breeders, pedigree and registered for significantly less than this widely available so the 400+ estimate is greatly overinflated.


----------



## CockerRags (Jan 30, 2012)

@ WLBSH umm, where did I say I had bred from them?

_If_ I chose to, I haven't signed any contracts and the "registered" breeder never discussed anything with me regarding breeding or not breeding. Neither did I with her as they were not purchased to breed.

But just to clarify for you again, I have not bred from them.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Tamiyamumma said:


> I am in no way schooled up on this matter but it is something that has become very interesting to me. Now I am in the market for a pedigree kitten as one or two might know and I am bafelled but all the GCCF and TICA rules and regs but one thing that is glaringly obvious is that registered breeders have the needs of their chosen breed at heart and bettering then not just providing cheap kittens for family members.
> 
> What would have happened if she needed a c sections and have you discussed with your relatives the necessity of spaying so that this doesn't get out of hand in the future?


Ha ha then she would have been very much out of pocket and become in the red.
Then her expensive moggies wouldn't seem such a good idea (nothing wrong with moggies iv got 1)


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

CockerRags said:


> @ WLBSH umm, where did I say I had bred from them?
> 
> _If_ I chose to, I haven't signed any contracts and the "registered" breeder never discussed anything with me regarding breeding or not breeding. Neither did I with her as they were not purchased to breed.
> 
> But just to clarify for you again, I have not bred from them.


Fair point you didn't.

Ok well why would the breeder talk to you about this she wouldn't unless you had gone to her wanting a breeding girl. Your breeder would have put those kittens on the non active register as this is what breeders do if they arnt sold for breeding.

So if you had kittens you couldn't register them anyhow.


----------



## hneale1980 (Mar 26, 2013)

Tamiyamumma said:


> I am in no way schooled up on this matter but it is something that has become very interesting to me. Now I am in the market for a pedigree kitten as one or two might know and I am bafelled but all the GCCF and TICA rules and regs but one thing that is glaringly obvious is that registered breeders have the needs of their chosen breed at heart and bettering then not just providing cheap kittens for family members.
> 
> What would have happened if she needed a c sections and have you discussed with your relatives the necessity of spaying so that this doesn't get out of hand in the future?


my brother is a vet so if she was to have needed a c section she would have been in VERY good hands he has also checked the kittens and my cat before any meeting was done. And i have NO intention of selling the kittens.!my family and I have kept cats for the whole of my life so we know how to look after them and the other cats in our care. thank you for all your concern but i wasnt looking for any arguments etc i just wanted to know the sex of my kittens!i dont need to keep explaining myself or my actions so i will bid you all fair well to converse between your selves.


----------



## CockerRags (Jan 30, 2012)

Obviously WLBSH 

My oldest cat is 5 years old, I'm no expert but I have researched the ins and outs of everything to do with the breed for 5 years plus.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

hneale1980 said:


> my brother is a vet so if she was to have needed a c section she would have been in VERY good hands he has also checked the kittens and my cat before any meeting was done. And i have NO intention of selling the kittens.!my family and I have kept cats for the whole of my life so we know how to look after them and the other cats in our care. thank you for all your concern but i wasnt looking for any arguments etc i just wanted to know the sex of my kittens!i dont need to keep explaining myself or my actions so i will bid you all fair well to converse between your selves.


Ok may I suggest you go learn your genetics,breed the right way do something good for the breed.

And good luck selling them gorgeous moggies.


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Dont run after we have helped you, you still need help with colours of kittens.
Just a silly question, but if your brother (vet) has checked the kittens over, couldnt he tell what sex they was?


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

Oh dear..


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Isnt there a serious genetic fault in this breed? something that can make them go blind at a certain age?..hope you realise op what you could be doing to someone much loved pet by not health testing.


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

You didn't health check your cat!? Are you mad?
What is it with people breeding cats for the hell of it nowadays. Did you not consider the genetic complications the kittens may have? You're going to be selling kittens to people who won't know what to expect and probably won't be able to fund the expensive treatment these kittens may need in the future, resulting in them either being pts or dumped.

Really wish people would think things through instead of thinking about bloody money.


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Just a suggestion, maybe you can continue breeding correctly and purchase a queen on the active register, then you will hopefully find a nice mentor to help further the breed.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

PRA but the GCCF don't require that we test for it - at least not yet. Otherwise Orientals & Siamese are usually pretty healthy cats. No PKD, blood groups not an issue, not heard of problems with HCM or with the various problems that the Burmese have.

My blue girl is PRA-negative and so is the beautiful lad she should be doing to next time she calls. I would have used him whatever his status, but it's good to know I can tell would-be slaves that she has tested negative and so has he.

In my view PRA is a far lesser evil than PKD - cats adjust well to blindness, but not to PKD. Thankfully gene testing has got rid of PKD in tested populations. Of course there are undoubtedly BYBs still producing kittens with it.


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

PRA - Progressive Retinal Atrophy is proving to be entrenched in some Oriental lines....luckily genetic testing is now available and from this selective breeding along with a database is helping to reduce the risks of affected kittens being born. 

This condition is terrible and I have posted about it before, it caused blindness which is untreatable. 

My main concern would be was snap test done prior mating and stud up to date with flu vaccs etc - if someone is taking in unregistered females I would wonder what else they may or may not be doing right.


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

lisajjl1 said:


> PRA - Progressive Retinal Atrophy is proving to be entrenched in some Oriental lines....luckily genetic testing is now available and from this selective breeding along with a database is helping to reduce the risks of affected kittens being born.
> 
> This condition is terrible and I have posted about it before, it caused blindness which is untreatable.
> 
> My main concern would be was snap test done prior mating and stud up to date with flu vaccs etc - if someone is taking in unregistered females I would wonder what else they may or may not be doing right.


Glad somebody pointed this out, I hope OP takes notice.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lisajjl1 said:


> PRA - Progressive Retinal Atrophy is proving to be entrenched in some Oriental lines....luckily genetic testing is now available and from this selective breeding along with a database is helping to reduce the risks of affected kittens being born.
> 
> This condition is terrible and I have posted about it before, it caused blindness which is untreatable.
> 
> My main concern would be was snap test done prior mating and stud up to date with flu vaccs etc - if someone is taking in unregistered females I would wonder what else they may or may not be doing right.


The op is still reading lets hope she thinks about this.
Iv read in the dog section of people who have sued people who sold them pets that die of a genetic condition.

*sigh*


----------



## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

You know there's Oriental rescues right? You're taking homes away from these poor cats.

Why breed kittens that could face a life of trauma, because you didn't do the right health tests? Nothing you can say will make this okay!


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> You know there's Oriental rescues right? You're taking homes away from these poor cats.
> 
> Why breed kittens that could face a life of trauma, because you didn't do the right health tests? Nothing you can say will make this okay!


Well said Sam,
OP, I hope you feel proud of yourself. It doesn't take a genius to know that you MUST health check the parents of the kittens you're planning. I don't care if I get shot down for this, I think you've being really irresponsible. 

I really do think you're just in this for the money.


----------



## Tamiyamumma (Sep 13, 2012)

hneale1980 said:


> my brother is a vet so if she was to have needed a c section she would have been in VERY good hands he has also checked the kittens and my cat before any meeting was done. And i have NO intention of selling the kittens.!my family and I have kept cats for the whole of my life so we know how to look after them and the other cats in our care. thank you for all your concern but i wasnt looking for any arguments etc i just wanted to know the sex of my kittens!i dont need to keep explaining myself or my actions so i will bid you all fair well to converse between your selves.


Please don't throw a paddy we all just have the cats and kittens best interests at heart!

If your brother is a vet then surely he would have explained the inherent risks and complications to breeding and also fully explained all tests that should be carried out before mating.

By all means breed but do it properly


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

hneale1980 said:


> *my brother is a vet *so if she was to have needed a c section she would have been in VERY good hands he has also checked the kittens and my cat before any meeting was done. And* i have NO intention of selling the kittens*.!my family and I have kept cats for the whole of my life so we know how to look after them and the other cats in our care. thank you for all your concern but i wasnt looking for any arguments etc i just wanted to know the sex of my kittens!*i dont need to keep explaining myself or my actions so i will bid you all fair well to converse between your selves.*


Woah hold on right there for a second, your brother is a vet yet he didn't tell you the gender of your kittens and he didn't recommend you get you cat vet checked?

- You're not going to sell the kittens, you bred them for your family?! Well that's stupid for a start, you don't know how many kittens there could have been what happens if you had more kittens then family members able to take them? Are they able to afford vet bills, injections, neutering/spaying - Or are they planning on breeding too? What about all the cats/kittens in rescues needing homes? Why add to the list of animals on this earth?! You just denied some kittens a home.

I really don't think you thought this through did you? I have a feeling you will end up SELLING the kittens. I also feel you don't know enough about the breed to offer advice/warnings about genetic conditions they could have 

-The information you've given us has left us no choice but to be 'nosey'. We're here to help, either take the advice and be grateful or go somewhere else to sulk.

I've had enough of BYB. :mad5:

-breathes-


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

YorkshireMuppet said:


> <snip>
> I also feel you don't know enough about the breed to offer advice/warnings about genetic conditions they could have, which could prove fatal.
> <snip>


I haven't heard of any fatal genetic conditions in ORI/SIA, but they are not cats for everyone. They are usually energetic, athletic, intelligent and easily bored, and we all know that a bored cat can be destructive and aggressive. They can also be very territorial and prone to behavioural problems.


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> I haven't heard of any fatal genetic conditions in ORI/SIA, but they are not cats for everyone. They are usually energetic, athletic, intelligent and easily bored, and we all know that a bored cat can be destructive and aggressive. They can also be very territorial and prone to behavioural problems.


Ah, sorry got the wrong end of the stick there, have changed it in my post. There are some more reasons why these kittens could be dumped or sold on, because the new owners probably won't be told about the conditions these cats really need. I'm sorry but I don't think OP thought this through.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Another case that shows how much early neutering needs to be done as standard now.


----------



## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

I think every breeder on here would have their own stories of kitten buyers coming to them after already losing a cat/kitten, often early deaths that 'wasnt a real pedigree just from someone who had kittens from their cat cos they liked cats'.....I have had more than a few who have then decided when ready to look again to find a safer option and are looking for tested cats, healthy lines, asking about lifespan and looking for a knowledgable breeder....I dont know everything but can put my hand on heart and say I have full confidence in health and temperament of my cats etc.

I also think all breeders have knowledge of problems that occur that mean breeders register kittens non active which is untimatley where these unregistered cats come from - there will be a non active in the background somewhere. 

I have heard of PKD in Siamese - not from a responsible breeder causing distressing death at 9 months, hole in the heart of one kitten in a litter that meant all others were registered non-active to prevent it passing on...hope to god no one bred from those kittens, a litter of 7 that was wiped out within a day from cat flu brought in by using unvaccinated stud/queen.

Its a real lottery and you play with fire at your buyers peril.


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

I see OP has mysteriously vanished.. 
What a surprise.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Maybe from now on - we ask before giving answers to questions - fed up of helping out bybs with colours and sexes!


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I hope the op does come back and read these posts, some very important information about the breed, which i didnt know about, from experienced breeders.


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

I don't think OP will return Catcoonz. It seems the truth got too much to handle. 

Byb's really do wind me up, and to make it so obvious on this forum. 

Can't help but feel OP wanted females, probably to breed from! (Yes just an assumption but it seems clear as day to me)


----------



## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

i don't know about anyone else here, although i know some have left temporarily, but i for one am getting really bored reading the threads that are around at the moment. this is another person breeding cats when there is no need whatsoever. i've learnt such a lot from experienced breeders who do everything properly and with the cats interest at heart but tbh i don't know how long i want to stick around for at the moment. it used to be great on here, and i expect the same thing happens every 'kitten season'. i have really loved my time here and had some fantastic advice from very knowledgeable people. i've also made some great friends, one of which i will be visiting later this year but this drags you down to the point where i think why bother logging on. sorry for my moaning but i needed to say it


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

cats galore said:


> i don't know about anyone else here, although i know some have left temporarily, but i for one am getting really bored reading the threads that are around at the moment. this is another person breeding cats when there is no need whatsoever. i've learnt such a lot from experienced breeders who do everything properly and with the cats interest at heart but tbh i don't know how long i want to stick around for at the moment. it used to be great on here, and i expect the same thing happens every 'kitten season'. i have really loved my time here and had some fantastic advice from very knowledgeable people. i've also made some great friends, one of which i will be visiting later this year but this drags you down to the point where i think why bother logging on. sorry for my moaning but i needed to say it


Please don't go CG!! I actually like reading your posts!! 
I know what you mean, i'll admit it's getting to me too. I don't want to leave as I love it here but it's so tedious. And especially when people ignore advice and continue doing what they were doing or arguing back. Gahh. 

Feel free to inbox me if you're feeling down xx


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

CG.... you have to stay around to be a virtual midwife. xx


----------



## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

Please don't leave CG, it gets us all down but we have each other for support. We need you too


----------



## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

YorkshireMuppet said:


> Please don't go CG!! I actually like reading your posts!!
> I know what you mean, i'll admit it's getting to me too. I don't want to leave as I love it here but it's so tedious. And especially when people ignore advice and continue doing what they were doing or arguing back. Gahh.
> 
> Feel free to inbox me if you're feeling down xx


i'm just so fed up with the whole situation of abandoned/neglected cats just because people want to have kittens. i had to take a cat yesterday to be handed over to a rescue as her owner had died and the family had thrown her out. she has always been an indoor cat and was absolutely petrified. in the last couple of months i've found or been asked to find homes for 'too many' cats just because they were born when there was no need for it, then they end up in the wrong hands. tabitha was another one. dumped in a box with a litter of 3 x one week old kittens. then by the time she was caught she was pregnant again resulting in another 5 kittens. then there was grace and kiara, dumped in a box by my car aged approx 4 months old. then evie and ella - kicked around the street in a box by kids. it just goes on and i'm not even a rescue centre. it is really beginning to annoy me now:mad5:


----------



## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

catcoonz said:


> CG.... you have to stay around to be a virtual midwife. xx


don't worry CC i'm not leaving - i've made too many friends but i'm just so fed up. i suppose like everyone else really


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

cats galore said:


> i'm just so fed up with the whole situation of abandoned/neglected cats just because people want to have kittens. i had to take a cat yesterday to be handed over to a rescue as her owner had died and the family had thrown her out. she has always been an indoor cat and was absolutely petrified. in the last couple of months i've found or been asked to find homes for 'too many' cats just because they were born when there was no need for it, then they end up in the wrong hands. tabitha was another one. dumped in a box with a litter of 3 x one week old kittens. then by the time she was caught she was pregnant again resulting in another 5 kittens. then there was grace and kiara, dumped in a box by my car aged approx 4 months old. then evie and ella - kicked around the street in a box by kids. it just goes on and i'm not even a rescue centre. it is really beginning to annoy me now:mad5:


I can't begin to imagine how stressful that is for you. I wish people had sense and didn't just think of money. Wanting kittens over cats? Why? Cats are much more fun in my opinion. Just because they're 'cute'. Aren't adults cute?
What sickens me is when folk dump elderly or pregnant cats. Or dump cats after giving birth to sell the kittens on.

Shadow had been dumped and when we did find his 'owner' was told they would have drowned him otherwise. It's vile.

I wish I could afford to take each and every stray in and give them the love they deserve. People messed this bloody world up and the animals suffer the consequences. Gahh. :mad2:


----------



## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

YorkshireMuppet said:


> I can't begin to imagine how stressful that is for you. I wish people had sense and didn't just think of money. Wanting kittens over cats? Why? Cats are much more fun in my opinion. Just because they're 'cute'. Aren't adults cute?
> What sickens me is when folk dump elderly or pregnant cats. Or dump cats after giving birth to sell the kittens on.
> 
> Shadow had been dumped and when we did find his 'owner' was told they would have drowned him otherwise. It's vile.
> ...


i took 6 kittens into my house a couple of years ago who were going to end up in a bucket. i managed to re-home 5 and we kept alfie. then only a few months ago i heard of someone who had let their cat have kittens. when the kittens were about 4 weeks old he took the cat and dumped her somewhere. then he re-homed one kitten and kept two. when they got fed up of them the kittens somehow managed to end up in the washing machine (two loads of washing with a kitten in each) and they let them drown:mad5:. i really do hate some people


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

cats galore said:


> i took 6 kittens into my house a couple of years ago who were going to end up in a bucket. i managed to re-home 5 and we kept alfie. then only a few months ago i heard of someone who had let their cat have kittens. when the kittens were about 4 weeks old he took the cat and dumped her somewhere. then he re-homed one kitten and kept two. when they got fed up of them the kittens somehow managed to end up in the washing machine (two loads of washing with a kitten in each) and they let them drown:mad5:. i really do hate some people


 
That is absolutely sickening!! Omg, I feel ill. :
I hate people, I am actually embarrassed to be in the same race as these invilids. Poor mites


----------



## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

I just hope we haven't scared away the OP when these kittens are just two weeks old and she'll need your expertise and guidance more and more. What's done is done, the kittens are here.

I've mentioned it before but I too did something very similar back in 1998. The only difference is my girl was on the active so the litter I had was registered. Didn't do it for money. Just for the love of Siamese. 

Come back OP...


----------



## SamanthaGoosey (Jan 26, 2013)

cats galore said:


> i'm just so fed up with the whole situation of abandoned/neglected cats just because people want to have kittens. i had to take a cat yesterday to be handed over to a rescue as her owner had died and the family had thrown her out. she has always been an indoor cat and was absolutely petrified. in the last couple of months i've found or been asked to find homes for 'too many' cats just because they were born when there was no need for it, then they end up in the wrong hands. tabitha was another one. dumped in a box with a litter of 3 x one week old kittens. then by the time she was caught she was pregnant again resulting in another 5 kittens. then there was grace and kiara, dumped in a box by my car aged approx 4 months old. then evie and ella - kicked around the street in a box by kids. it just goes on and i'm not even a rescue centre. it is really beginning to annoy me now:mad5:


As long as people like you are around we can save these poor cats from horrible people, you've done some amazing stuff CG  you're every cruelly treated cat's little bit of hope 

I agree with Spid, we need to be careful who we're helping on stuff like colours and sexing. Obviously with labour, we're doing it for the cat, but otherwise we're just helping them fill out their ridiculously overpriced advert. "Rare red orientals for sale! No time wasters! £1000! CHEAP!"


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

SamanthaGoosey said:


> As long as people like you are around we can save these poor cats from horrible people, you've done some amazing stuff CG  you're every cruelly treated cat's little bit of hope
> 
> I agree with Spid, we need to be careful who we're helping on stuff like colours and sexing. Obviously with labour, we're doing it for the cat, but otherwise we're just helping them fill out their ridiculously overpriced advert. "Rare red orientals for sale! No time wasters! £1000! CHEAP!"


CG, you have done a fantastic job and I for one, am very proud of you!!

I also agree with Spid, OP may sell the kittens for stupid prices to people who may have more money than sense!


----------



## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

thankyou for your kind words but i honestly i don't help the cats that end up with me for praise. i do it because i love all animals and i dearly would love to keep everyone of them. it was so hard to take amber on her way to the rescue yesterday - she was gorgeous but would never have coped with all my cats. i take in ill treated guinea pigs too and again like the cats, they get bred to death by people who don't understand. oh well, i suppose this is the way it will always be and we just have to do our best to help them when they need it. i purchased a wall plaque yesterday which is worded ''the more people i meet, the more i love my cats!!'' how very true this is


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

cats galore said:


> thankyou for your kind words but i honestly i don't help the cats that end up with me for praise. i do it because i love all animals and i dearly would love to keep everyone of them. it was so hard to take amber on her way to the rescue yesterday - she was gorgeous but would never have coped with all my cats. i take in ill treated guinea pigs too and again like the cats, they get bred to death by people who don't understand. oh well, i suppose this is the way it will always be and we just have to do our best to help them when they need it. i purchased a wall plaque yesterday which is worded ''the more people i meet, the more i love my cats!!'' how very true this is


I completely agree people are idiots!!!
It's horrible when you have to rehome ones you can't keep. Truly heartbreaking!!


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> Maybe from now on - we ask before giving answers to questions - fed up of helping out bybs with colours and sexes!


was thinking the exact same earlier spid,next time ill ask do you have a registered prefix etc.Some would say what does that have to do with their questions? A lot cause I am fed up of this.That poster the other day will now sell her unregistered kittens as variant..didn't have a clue before she came here.Them kittens hardly looked bsh the eyes were wrong.:mad5:


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Well if this person needs advise on weaning and care of kittens, at least her brother is a vet so she will get the advise needed.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Ah, you believed that bit? I didn't, unfortunately - I think she made it up to stop us questioning her - a vet brother could have sexed them - easier in the flesh than via an upside-down photo.


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I think you know me well enough by now Spid that no i didnt believe that part.

I was only interested to find out why they was cross breeds, thought maybe there was a shortage of oriental studs.


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

Why did OP come to us when the brother's a vet?!


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

YorkshireMuppet said:


> Why did OP come to us when the brother's a vet?!


Prob cause vets don't have a clue when it comes to breeding.


----------



## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Lol several vets I have met struggle to sex very young kittens, they rarely see them that young so have only read it in a text book! A friend of mine's vet took a tortie in for castration without realising it probably wasn't male.


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Prob cause vets don't have a clue when it comes to breeding.


I hate the human race 
If vets don't know about breeding they can't help people who go to ask them. It's a vicious circle of unknowing.
Sorry i'm getting stressed at all this


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

catcoonz said:


> I think you know me well enough by now Spid that no i didnt believe that part.
> 
> I was only interested to find out why they was cross breeds, thought maybe there was a shortage of oriental studs.


Sorry wasn't thinking - thick head on today. I think I believe about 20% of what people tell me nowadays (this is in virtual and REAL life)- until I get to really know them. Pinch of sat and all that. I try not to let on that I'm dubious but . . .


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

spid said:


> Sorry wasn't thinking - thick head on today. I think I believe about 20% of what people tell me nowadays (this is in virtual and REAL life)- until I get to really know them. Pinch of sat and all that. I try not to let on that I'm dubious but . . .


Think you're just mega stressed hun!


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

YorkshireMuppet said:


> Think you're just mega stressed hun!


Oh for a day without some kind of stress in it - I wouldn't wish my stress on many people - but a few bybs can have it!


----------



## YorkshireMuppet (Mar 22, 2013)

spid said:


> Oh for a day without some kind of stress in it - I wouldn't wish my stress on many people - but a few bybs can have it!


Tonnes of respect for you! People can be difficult even I know that


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Told you already Spid, calming tea.  although you do need to drink alot to have any effect.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Think I need diazepam this week! (for real life not virtual in case anyone feels it's here that is doing it all) Calming tea isn't going to cut the mustard!


----------



## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

spid said:


> Think I need diazepam this week! (for real life not virtual in case anyone feels it's here that is doing it all) Calming tea isn't going to cut the mustard!


have you got some spare for me spid. i think i could do with it too. i'm off prom dress shopping tomorrow with my daughter. it's going to be hell. she hates dresses at the best of times and she suffers with sensory dysfunctional integration amongst lots of other things - she cannot stand most fabrics touching her skin. this shopping trip should be fun


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Unfortunately I have none for myself - but if I did you could have some. 

I hate dress shopping - *shudders as remember the last trip with a totally ungrateful DD1*


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Prom dress shopping, wow ive done that twice, cost me a blimin fortune.


----------



## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

catcoonz said:


> Prom dress shopping, wow ive done that twice, cost me a blimin fortune.


that's another reason i could do with diazapam. i've got £300 put to one side but i really would like to avoid payng that sort of money. but with everything she's been through, and still going through i want to try and make things perfect for her


----------

