# The Dog Listener



## VickiGS (Feb 13, 2013)

By Jan Fennell

Has anybody read this? I'm reading it now and I think it is absolutely brilliant.

I've never stopped to think of why dogs do some things or what they might be thinking & this book has opened my eyes.

I think she's an inspiration and should be extremely proud of what she has achieved.


----------



## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

I've read it but wasn't all that impressed to be honest. She has some very strange ideas about how dogs think and I don't agree with a lot of what she says.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sorry but I think she is absolutely awful and her methods are completely outdated. Most of what she writes is pure rubbish that was discredited decades ago. Her "theories" are based around being 'Alpha' and dominance.


----------



## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

I would agree, most of the reasons she gives for almost any behaviour problem under the sun is that the dog is too dominant, doesn't know it's place. This is very old school thinking, and for this reason you won't find this book on a recommended reading list for any modern behaviour course of any merit. 

However, that said, most of what she suggests people actually DO is pretty harmless, and may even be helpful in some cases, just not for the reasons she suggests. It isn't nice manners for dogs (especially large dogs in multi-dog homes) to barge through doorways for example. Teaching a sit and wait until released at a door instills some impulse control and gets the dog into the habit of paying attention to the handler. 

Eating crackers from the dog's dinner bowl is pretty ridiculous in my opinion, and the dog may well think you have lost your marbles, but it is harmless.

She has been hugely successful in terms of popularity, but much like Cesar Milan, she is more popular with the average pet dog owner than with the professional training & behaviour communities.

A nice book to read for balance, and an alternative view on why dogs do what they do and how they relate to humans is Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I am afraid I could not disagree with you more OP.

Yet another bogus individual who is very good at marketing herself and making a lot of money out of people based on no proven science.

Any person who calls themselves a "whisperer" or "listener" obviously has ideas above their station. Not to mention invented a word for canine communication (amichien). 

I know of NO reputable trainer or behaviourist, either in the UK or abroad who admires, recommends or supports Jan Fennel.

However I believe in some cultures Witch Doctors are highly revered.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

VickiGS said:


> By Jan Fennell
> 
> Has anybody read this? I'm reading it now and I think it is absolutely brilliant.
> 
> ...


This is the woman who insists that if a dog pulls on the lead, the best way is not to walk it at all. Dogs don't need to walk, apparently, in the wild they play, not walk. God alone knows how they feed themselves that way, or perhaps God is the one feeding them.

Oh, and I do not have dogs so that I can ignore them, which is her philosophy. Apparently when you come into a room you should ignore the dog - not on your life. My dogs are greeted with enthusiasm and what's more I expect visitors to greet them the same way, and with the same civility they would give a person. It is their house after all.

And, as said, outdated dominance rubbish and her franchisees charge in the region of £200 to come and talk to you for a couple of hours.

I will stick to my basic instincts, thanks.


----------



## VickiGS (Feb 13, 2013)

Just me then


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

If you're interested in why dogs do things there are much better books out there, books that don't put it all down to the dog being dominant and the human not being "pack leader". Culture Clash for one.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I've borrowed about eight books off a friend. Culture Clash is one of them, so looking forward to perusing that. Reading about clicker training at the mo.

Things have certainly moved on since I last had a puppy. My friend and I were reminiscing about previous dogs and I remembered taking my Irish to training classes way back in the early seventies and we were taught by the Barbara Woodhouse method which was a step up from "beat your dog if he does wrong" method used before.

Our understanding of dogs and how to train or should I say 'shape' their behaviour, changes all the time. Staying with it takes quite a bit of effort. All I can say is, read as much as you can of current training methods, persevere with your method and try not to confuse your dog by introducing too much too quickly and finally use your instincts about your dog rather then some overhyped highly paid tv star.


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2013)

I just can't for the life of me figure out how pulling on the leash is a dominant behavior. 
Have these charlatans never heard of oppositional reflex?
Sled dogs?
Service dogs who *guide* their handlers?
Search and rescue dogs who must be in front of their handlers?
Tracking dogs? 
Hunting dogs?

I can think of so many situations where a dog would be required to be out in front of the handler, surely these dogs must all suffer from dominance issues? Yet somehow they don't... Weird...


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

VickiGS said:


> Just me then


Are you the member who is getting a Lab puppy?

I hope you are not planning on using her 'methods' (if you can call them that) on your new puppy? because a Lab pup will find it very distressing and confusing being ignored constantly like Ms Fennel recommends.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> I am afraid I could not disagree with you more OP.


This for me too I'm afraid. I've actually read her book as someone gave it to me. It's very outdated and is generally filled with lots of misinterpretations of canine behaviour, picture examples included. Unfortunately she misdiagnoses alot, these misdiagnoses conveniently fitting in with her outdated theories and methods.

The book is now used as a doorstop although it may yet go as fuel for the wood burner.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

A friend of mine gave her a book of hers when we first got Kes, telling me how fantastic it is. They seem to have used her methods to combat their own doggs resource guarding, although he still guards so I suppose the methods weren't all that good afterall. Everytime I see this friend they ask me if I read it all before I gave it back and go on about how great it was, I usually comment that it was okay and I have a lot more dog books these days to get ideas from if they want to borrow some. I can't imagine how my friend would receive The Culture Clash after believing Jan Fennell for so many years.


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

VickiGS said:


> Just me then


I found it very interesting 

I agree that ignoring a dog and not fawning all over it sends a very strong message.

Walking in front is not just dominance. However i see a big difference in the behaviour of my staffy x if he walks in front. If he is in front on a flexi lead and a person approaches then he is likely to go Into "protection" mode. However if he is by my side then he does not behave like this.

I certainly think that for some dog walking in front does give them the idea that it is their job to protect the "pack"

Some methods are outdated but I agree with the basic principal of dominance


----------



## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

When I first read it, and the follow ups, I thought they were great. Really got into it! So I got a Dog Listener out. She was great, her script was perfect, we got exactly what I got out of the book (remind me what I was paying her for??), but Fred threw her. It took well over an hour of being ignored, in fact might have been two hours before he'd leave us alone. She had no idea what to do.

Interestingly, the behaviourist I had out about a year or so later who really helped us, also had us ignoring Fred, but he had a specific reason for doing so, based on the dog himself, not on a script. And no, I wasn't impressed with not walking him, although I do sometimes use a similar method for dogs that get stupidly excited at going out and make life hard for their owners. So as mentioned, some of her ideas are good, she's just go no idea why they are working. As shown when she's supposedly this great dog listener, but her dogs had a massive fight which took months to sort out.

I tried to read it again recently, as part of my training, and couldn't get more than a quarter of the way through it. I don't like Culture Clash either, but I think that's the way it's written as much as the training/behaviour methods. The book I like best is The Other End of the Leash.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I was horrified by one of the things I read in JF's book. Namely, that if your dog doesn't obey recall, you should ignore him - even if it means ignoring him continually, for days on end 

Also, it makes no difference to a dog whether you eat before them or not. My dog always eats before me and he's not remotely 'dominant'.

I find 'The Culture Clash' far more helpful and refer to it often.

I think I saw a mention that you are getting a Lab puppy? Labs CRAVE attention and affection from their owners and families. Please do *not* use 'dog listening' on a Lab pup


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

We always have fed our dogs before us. It saves the carpet from all the drooling otherwise.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I was horrified by one of the things I read in JF's book. Namely, that if your dog doesn't obey recall, you should ignore him - even if it means ignoring him continually, for days on end
> 
> Also, it makes no difference to a dog whether you eat before them or not. My dog always eats before me and he's not remotely 'dominant'.
> 
> ...


If a dog does not recall, the promise of a cuddle and lots of fuss will usually bring them galloping over in my own experience. I don't see that they have any reason to come to you if they are going to be ignored; they may as well go see someone else who will make a fuss of them.


----------



## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

It is Tosh. 
And Piffle. 
From a woman with NO qualifications in animal behaviour who makes a living out of selling franchises for her stupid methods. 
She does, however, have a qualification in Human Psychology - which is why her book presses all the right buttons. Unless you know what real animal behavioural science is about. 
I suggest you read The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. This is an accessible book by a woman who DOES know what she`s talking about.


----------



## WhatWouldSidDo (Nov 17, 2012)

I had a clear out recently and couldn't even bring myself to give this book to the charity shop with my other books, It went in the bin. 

If you read "100 silliest things people say about dogs" and/or "The Culture Clash" you might understand why.

But I was silly enough to believe it once


----------



## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

i started to read it but while out walking opie, jax decided it would make a nice chew toy :thumbup:


----------



## danielblackmore (May 29, 2012)

I thought I would my two pence after using one of her franchisee's...

So, I have a dog with excessive barking issue's. She barks are anything, any noise at all inside or outside the house. We found that nothing that I read worked at all so as a last resort we found someone local to us, and stupidly without recomendations we booked him to come and see us. 

A quick phone call to the guy and he claimed he knew what the issue's are, and what all of you have said, he claimed it to be a pack leader issue... I didnt second guess him as I believed he was the professional.

We booked in the guy to come and see us, so he could see how we handle the dog etc. There were some other issue's we wanted advice on while he was here just to get our money's worth which were: Excited wee'ing when we use to great her, a bit anxious on the lead and something else I cannot remember. 

Every problem we asked him about, he always put it down to 'the dog is the pack leader and is stressed' and the methods to deal with the barking were completely inpractical. We got the whole 'you cant acknowledge the dog when you walk in' talk, as well as a few other pack leader traits we needed to follow which we didnt bother to be honest. 

£250 down and no improvement at all at the time. The worst of it all, the methods that were explained, wasnt even demonstrated. I cant speak for all of the franchisee's but his and certainly Jan's is that they are 'Dog Listeners' not trainers...

It turned out the our dog was very anxious all the time which caused the barking which lead to it becoming a habbit. With some advice from the vet and a small course of harmless drugs to call her down a bit, she has now been good as gold as well as some other traits she had developed.

Anytime now I hear of the name Jan Fennel, I cringe


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Meanwhile at the WOOF conference 2013, behaviourists and trainers present make a statement:
Pack Leader! - YouTube

They don't need to be the pack leader. JF didn't need to be either. Neither do you


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I was about to get one out when I had problems getting Ferdie into the car. She told me over the phone that if I were the pack leader, he would follow me into the car so that was obviously the answer. The fact that he was frightened didn't come into it. I decided not to bother.

My cousin had someone out, don't know who, because her spaniel ran and hid when she got her lead out. It was pretty obvious that she did not like the halti, but this so called behaviourist told her the dog was trying to be the pack leader and it was too much responsibility for her.

What a load of wotnots!


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

The whole thing can get really stupid. I've had someone tell me I'm not pack leader because of how enthusiastic Spencer is about his training. Apparently racing to me as fast as he can go and skidding to a halt at my feet is not respectful. Neither is throwing himself into a down with a grin on his face and his tail going a hundred miles an hour. I should apparently be curbing his enthusiasm and insisting he performs everything with a calm, submissive attitude. Whatever that means. I assume slowly and anxiously like this persons dog does them.


----------



## VickiGS (Feb 13, 2013)

Pretty much all over same opinion from everyone that's posted then? 

Yes I'm getting a lab & yes I know that they crave attention which they will get and no I won't ignore them. I've been brought up around labs all my life, I've just never owned one myself, so I know what to expect. 

I don't agree with some things she says, but on the other side, I think she provides an insight. 

My god mothers dog doesn't knock you over when you are trying to get in the door, he greets you calmly until you are ready to shower him with attention & he's a fantastically brought up dog. Appreciate that this doesn't work for everyone, but because I've been brought up around this, I guess you could say its "habit" for wanting the same.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Not sure what leaping all over someone trying to get through the door has to do with the Dog Listener  It's possible to have a well mannered dog without following bizarre rank reduction rules.


----------



## VickiGS (Feb 13, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Not sure what leaping all over someone trying to get through the door has to do with the Dog Listener  It's possible to have a well mannered dog without following bizarre rank reduction rules.


She talks about ignoring them when you get up in the morning/get in the house so that they address you calmly and don't bombard you as you open the door/when visitors come round, until you are ready..... Page 47 to 50.


Edit: but like I've already mentioned, I don't agree with everything and I wouldn't ignore him, I'd try something else with him. As people say; what works for one, mightn't work for another!


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

VickiGS said:


> She talks about ignoring them when you get up in the morning/get in the house so that they address you calmly and don't bombard you as you open the door/when visitors come round, until you are ready..... Page 47 to 50.


Perhaps I am missing something, but what is wrong with your dog being excited to see you when you return? I always look forward to seeing them so I am guessing the feeling is mutual. I would be far more worried if my dog had no desire to greet me!


----------



## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> The whole thing can get really stupid. I've had someone tell me I'm not pack leader because of how enthusiastic Spencer is about his training. Apparently racing to me as fast as he can go and skidding to a halt at my feet is not respectful. Neither is throwing himself into a down with a grin on his face and his tail going a hundred miles an hour. I should apparently be curbing his enthusiasm and insisting he performs everything with a calm, submissive attitude. Whatever that means. I assume slowly and anxiously like this persons dog does them.


Some people think every little issue that crops up is down to your dog trying to dominate you. I was told that Mira barked at other dogs because she was trying to dominate.  Err, no, it was pretty clear even to a novice that her barking was caused by nervousness and being unsure. These are the issues that we worked on to fixed it. Trying to make her more "submissive" in that situation would've just made it worse.

My dogs eat either before or after us, depending on the day, they go through doors first, (pretty calmly), and I generally don't feel the need to ignore them when entering a room.

Has this turned them into dominant pack leaders? Nope, I think we have a pretty good human/dog balance in this house without any of that nonsense!


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2013)

Love the WOOF conference video Lemmsy! :thumbup:



VickiGS said:


> My god mothers dog doesn't knock you over when you are trying to get in the door, he greets you calmly until you are ready to shower him with attention & he's a fantastically brought up dog. Appreciate that this doesn't work for everyone, but because I've been brought up around this, I guess you could say its "habit" for wanting the same.


My dogs don't knock you over either, are polite with visitors, can go anywhere and behave beautifully... 
They can also be balls to the walls spazmos who live life wide open with unbridled enthusiasm. I wouldn't have it any other way. They are truly a joy to live with. 
I'm not willing to give up their joie de vivre so that they don't jump on elderly aunt Ethel. But lucky me, since I don't subscribe to dominating a dog in order to "control" him, I don't have to. Training for us is communication. A conversation if you will, not a monologue or lecture.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

VickiGS said:


> Pretty much all over same opinion from everyone that's posted then?
> 
> Yes I'm getting a lab & yes I know that they crave attention which they will get and no I won't ignore them. I've been brought up around labs all my life, I've just never owned one myself, so I know what to expect.
> 
> ...


My dogs don't knock me over when I come in the door, either, nor do they knock anyone else over, and they seem to know when someone is a bit frail. Newfies have a habit of leaning on people, and they are extremely heavy, but there is an old lady who walks her dogs with her walking stick and they never lean on her.

I think the fact is dogs know a thing or do and all this pack leader crap is not giving them credit for their natural instincts and intelligence.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Just a little food for thought here for you OP:

Why do dogs jump up at people anyway (in situations described; owner returning home/ visitors)?

The answer:
A combination of excitement/arousal at presence of owner (with whom have formed attachments) or new people AND (and this is the important one) because they are appeasing said person. 
Appeasement is a common behaviour in communication amongst animals and is a form of social buffering, put simply, checking that "I'm ok, you're ok, we're ok", it's a good time to interact with said person and makes for more positive social interactions. 
We humans do it amongst ourselves. You walk in from work and say to your partner/house mate/parents/family member (delete as appropriate) "You'll right?"
Often we're not actually asking if they are "all right", we can see that they are physically all in one piece and not missing any limbs and but subconsciously we want to know if it is a good time to interact with them.

When dogs jump up, they do so because it provides them with proximity to our face (to read us), many dogs that jump up will try to lick you also (which closely imitates how one dog will appease another by approaching using calming signals and licking them around the muzzle).

Dogs that jump up alot or repetitively, despite having already met the person moments earlier are often OVER-APPEASING, usually because they feel a little anxious/insecure. 
My bitch used to do this a lot, especially in the period shortly after she was rehomed with us. She would do this to both us (family members including our other dog- she wouldn't jump up at him obviously but muzzle licking/over-appeasing) and strangers/visitors. This was due to anxiety after having being separated from "her people" and in the case of strangers, mild anxiety because she didn't know the person. She's improved a lot since she settled with us and I found that letting her appease me/us but doing so on her level so that she couldn't perform the jumping up helped alot. I.e. crouching down on my knees to greet her and holding her collar under her chin whilst using calming signals and speaking to her softly helped her chill out and learn not to worry.
If someone like JF had diagnosed her as dominant purely because she jumped up, they couldn't have been further from the truth. She's actually a little worm. :lol::001_wub:



newfiesmum said:


> all this pack leader crap is not giving them credit for their natural instincts and intelligence.


True. 
Incidentally, it's a shocker how much the word "dominance" in relation to a dominant animal has been used and abused. 
A dominant animal who, in it's natural environment, is thriving; eats well, is fit and health, reproduces (survival of the fittest) and lives until a good age. 
Dominant animals are also usually very good communicators (i.e. LESS LIKELY to have a preference for aggressive/reactive behaviours because they rarely need to escalate to this) because they form solid social bonds/attachments with other group members of their social group which ultimately allows for their survival (safety in numbers).

There are several studies which suggest that dogs are unlikely to process "perception of self" or at least consciously at any rate which puts the whole "pack leader"/ dominance aggression thing to bed really. It's not on their radar.

Humans are interested in self perception, power and status. Not dogs


----------



## Guest (Mar 2, 2013)

lemmsy said:


> Humans are interested in self perception, power and status. Not dogs


Loved the whole post, and the above sums it all up nicely. It's really not the dogs who care. It's the humans with their ego extensions on a leash who care. People get so invested in having a "dominant" dog, as if their dog's status increases theirs, as if the human's ability to control the beast on the leash elevates them somehow.

When you're living vicariously through your dog, "dominant" sounds much sexier than "rude, untrained, poorly socialized, with no impulse control and awful dog skills."


----------

