# That is absolutly it. I'm not standing for this anymore!



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Today, I took my lead reactive dog to the beach. We go to this beach at least twice a week. He is much better off lead, so that's what we do at the beach.

Well, today he was having none of it. He grumbled and lunged onlead as we went from th car park to the beach. I let him off when we were safely there and he made a bee line for a dog and there was a bit of a grumble. I thought perhaps he was a bit fired up by the dogs we met on our way from the car park, so I apologised and carried on. 

Then we passed a springer who he decided was not a friend, and another grumble session ensued. Again, I managed to call him away, but he immediately went up to a goldie and there was a bit of a tussle. Duke came away with a mouthful of fur, and this is an absolute first. He has never done this before and I was horrified. So I put him on his lead and he continued to lunge and snarl at every dog within 50 metres till I lost my temper.

Bad dog owner that I am, I shouted at him and when we came within a few yards of the next dog I gave him a very firm "leave it!- and I mean business!" Command and he stood still and didn't react at all. After that I used the "leave it!" Command whenever there was a dog about. We met a lovely man with 2 nice friendly springers and my heart sank as the man tried to engage us in chat and his dogs came within 3 metres of us. I gave the same "leave it!" Command and Duke did not react at all. I explained his horrible behaviour to the man and he smiled and went off with his dogs.

I have never tried this with him before, but after a year and a half of counter conditioning and de sensitisation (every day. Without fail) and no consistent improvement (in fact his off lead behaviour has deteriorated over the last couple of months) I'm going to give this a go.

I will still take my treats and clicker and click and treat him when he behaves well. I am also not going to let him offlead where there are other dogs around for the time being. This isn't too difficult as I am lucky enough to have some quiet walks and th beach is very quiet early in the morning.

I was so upset by his behaviour this morning that I ended up in tears. I was even contemplating phoning the breeder and asking her to take him back- but they are shooting people and I suspect they may use quite aversive methods.
So, I will keep a detailed record for every day this week and see if there is any improvement.

I'm at a loss to think of anything else I can do.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I've thought about this, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, but maybe you need to look at long term management rather than trying to fix him? some dogs just don't do well with other dogs and yours sounds like one of them. 

It sounds to me like the ways he behaves extends beyond the threshold of reactivity. I consider my little dog to be somewhat reactive - she'll gob off at other dogs, but only if they come up to her, and it really is all gob with no malice or nastiness; she's a fairly nervous little thing and likes to keep herself to herself. Your dog is by your own admission going up to dogs and getting into "a bit of a tussle" - that is more than just being reactive.

You could of course use aversive methods of you wished, but it isn't going to change the way your dog views other dogs and could even make it worse.

I appreciate that it is frustrating having a dog that can't just behave 'normally', I have one that I have to manage very carefully myself, but sometimes just accepting their quirks and dealing with them accordingly instead of trying to fix them is easiest for all concerned


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

It has occurred to me just to accept him as he is- but he is so reactive this would mean we would have to curtail almost all the things I like to do with my dogs.

But a year and a half is along time to not see any consistent improvement.

It has also crossed my mind, when we are doing the counter conditioning, that, as I don't really know what he's thinking when he looks at a dog, that perhaps I'm actually rewarding his horrible intent- even though he's sitting quietly, whenever he looks at the dog, he might be thinking "ugh!" And then he's being rewarded for it. Or is that too simplistic?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Not trying to be rude, but are you sure you are implementing the DS and CC programme correctly? 

Have you had any input from a reputable professional?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> It has occurred to me just to accept him as he is- but he is so reactive* this would mean we would have to curtail almost all the things I like to do with my dogs.*
> 
> But a year and a half is along time to not see any consistent improvement.
> 
> It has also crossed my mind, when we are doing the counter conditioning, that, as I don't really know what he's thinking when he looks at a dog, that perhaps I'm actually rewarding his horrible intent- even though he's sitting quietly, whenever he looks at the dog, he might be thinking "ugh!" And then he's being rewarded for it. Or is that too simplistic?


Like what?

I'm going to presume that you have seen a behaviourist. Have you looked at classes for reactive dogs?

Does he behave in an iffy manner towards all dogs or it selective dogs?

Honestly, if he were mine, I think a happy medium would be working with a behaviourist to get him the point where he was controllable without reacting on a lead, but be extremely selective about dogs he is allowed to interact with.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Maybe there is something to be said for focusing on management, for a time at least. Perhaps do the stuff he enjoys and is good at so you can both relax and enjoy each other for a while then reassess?

Certainly with my dog who has entirely different but still quite significant issues there have been times when I've though "sod it" and stopped working on something and avoided the issue. And on more than one occasion the issue has either resolved or improved just through us not making it into a huge thing we have to work on everyday. I suspect that this is because I've been somewhat inept at desensitization and counterconditioning at times and pushed things too far and actually made the issue even more stressful for him.

Actually we had a really bad time a couple of months ago (see several "woe is me" threads a while back). We had a holiday booked, and actually after a week of relaxing walks in a different environment without all the usual stressors he was a different dog. He's still really good (for him) and I think just really letting him relax made a huge difference.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Sorry, I can't do multi quotes.

SmokeyBear: yes, I have had a 1:1 session and joined a class with a reputable behaviourist. I stopped going to the class as being inside made him much much worse. I have thought, though, of going to someone else on the basis of looking at it from another persons viewpoint. There is a local behaviourist who specialises in gundogs. As far as I'm aware, I have been implementing her instructions correctly. I attended a "grumpy dogs" seminar by Nando Brown and it was exactly as I had been taught by the behaviourist.

Labradrk: leaving aside competing in anything, I hillwalk and go camping. Camping is very difficult as he lunges at any Dow which passes the tent and merely walking through the campsite is horrible. Classes for reactive dogs- I do go to them, they are run by the same behaviourist who specialises in gundogs. He has actually improved a lot there- in fact, now he's just about the best there! They are held outside which is great for him. His grumpyness seems to be to all dogs when he is onlead- except those he knows and is friends with. I think I'll talk to the trainer/behaviourist who does the classes and have a 1:1 with her. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. 

Sarahliz: I had a spell of just walking where there were no dogs for a while a few months back- it didn't make any difference.

My concern is that his behaviour is actually getting worse. I'm going to contact the behaviourist who does w classes and see what she suggests. She actually knows him quite well.

Thanks for the response. It helps to think things through in a more logical manner.

I'm feeling a bit more positive now. :thumbsup:


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm sorry Old Shep. It really is frustrating and upsetting when you live with reactive/DA dogs, especially when you think you're beginning to make improvements and then take a massive step back again.

My own girl is DA and we reached a point where it became about managing her behaviour rather than trying to 'fix' it, as Labradrk said. We worked with a behaviourist and a trainer up to that point, and we had much the same plan in action - to treat her when we saw other dogs, gradually building up our distance etc. I was also advised to ask her to sit and concentrate on another command. We worked solidly for a good year or two following this advice but it was very hit and miss and she was 100x worse when you asked her to sit. So I scrapped that idea, and I just asked her to focus on me as we kept walking. While we made some progress, it wasn't much and it was agreed that as she was getting older it was possibly more about management than making any real significant changes. Since working with that behaviourist and trainer she has been better on the lead. She can ignore dogs that are under control walking past too, as long as they're showing little interest in her. But her real issue is dogs that get in her space, and she herself can't be off lead around other dogs at all. However, later on I found BAT to be of some benefit. I only applied certain elements of it to our daily walks and never really made a formal training session out of it, but allowing Missy to take the lead and make choices gave her more freedom I think in the way she chooses to behave. I highly recommend the book by Grisha Stewart if you haven't got it already.



Old Shep said:


> It has occurred to me just to accept him as he is- but he is so reactive this would mean we would have to curtail almost all the things I like to do with my dogs.
> 
> But a year and a half is along time to not see any consistent improvement.
> 
> *It has also crossed my mind, when we are doing the counter conditioning, that, as I don't really know what he's thinking when he looks at a dog, that perhaps I'm actually rewarding his horrible intent- even though he's sitting quietly, whenever he looks at the dog, he might be thinking "ugh!" And then he's being rewarded for it. Or is that too simplistic?*


I think this is exactly what happened with Missy. She seemed to be much worse when asking something of her/rewarding her on sight of another dog. The only time I use treats, if ever these days, is once we have passed a dog and she has kept her cool. I give minimal praise, minimal fuss, and we just continue walking by dogs these days. I do think used in the wrong way, treats can be rather hit and miss, and especially if your timing isn't spot on.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks, for that, Dogloverlou. I really feel I have tried hard to change his behaviour and it's just going nowhere- we get a good day, then a few bad days, then another good day.......I looked rough my notebook, which I've kept since this stared and if I'm really brutally honest he Hasn't improved onlead at all. In fact when I think back to my initial session with the bhavioirist, he was able to stay unreactive when approached by other dogs in the park- even letting them sniff him. There is NO WAY he would do his now.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If he understands 'leave it' what's wrong with it?  'Leave it' ref potentially poisoned sausage someone dropped, 'leave it' ref dog walking past. What's the difference?


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

My merlin is dog reactive on a lead because he cant get away from other dogs and he was attacked as a puppy when young and on a lead.

We have tried for years to break the habit and the only thing that helps is us being really firm with him and without generalising it too much me being the boss and leader.

You can get leads that signify you have a dog with an issue but sometimes its about llearning what can and cant be tolerated.you can still do loads of things but its just about being more vigilant and if you do things with lots of other dogs around then consider using a muzzle.it makes other owners more aware your dog doesnt tolerate others so well.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Because you haven't used that method before, it may have worked purely through the shock/surprise value.

If you continue to use it, the effectiveness may wane.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

My dog wears a coat from Thw Yellow Dog Scheme when we are walking on lead.

I have left a message for the behaviourist. Hopefully she'll get back to me before too long and she can give some advice.

Unfortunately, I can't do "loads of things" because he creates such a furore when he kicks off- anything al all indoors is a total no no. Agility fires him up top much, and flyball involves dogs in very close proximity and they are all totally wired when playing! That would be a complete disaster!

Ugh! I'm really dumped by all this.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

rona said:


> Because you haven't used that method before, it may have worked purely through the shock/surprise value.
> 
> If you continue to use it, the effectiveness may wane.


Thanks, Rona. Yes, I'm aware it may just be the element of "surprise". That's why I need to see the behaviourist again.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2014)

A couple things I thought of as I read through your posts on here. 

Definitely work with that behaviorist (or another?) because in addition to DS/CC, you also need to work on impulse conrol and reliability of cues. 
DS can only do so much, at some point you have to be able to rely on your cues to simply get the dog out of ther.

I also agree with the comments about the dog being who the dog is. I have a dog who's not great with other dogs. He"s not reactive in that it's not a fearful response, my guy is just very low threshold when it comes to rude behavior and not respecting signals. I absolutely cannot put him in the types of situations you describe in your OP. He is never allowed to approach other dogs, he would be leashed, or called back to me as soon as another dog appeared. Now at 6 I can trust him to ignore pretty much any and all dogs, but I cannot trust him to initiate interactions. 
It really isn't that big of a deal. I certainly do not feel restricted in what I can do with him as far as activities go. I can take him anywhere, he will put up with very close quarters just fine, really, nothing is an issue other than I just can't turn him loose to go play and interact however he wishes. The only interactions I allow are with very carefully selected, compatible dogs who have owners who are as neurotic as I am 
With compatible dogs, we have zero issues. But there are very few compatible dogs out there. It's a very specific type of personality that works with him. 

The biggies for us were not allowing him to practice undesirable behaviors, and lots of impulse control. IOW, just because that dog does deserve to be corrected for being a rude asshat, you don't have to be the one to do it. 

You may just have to steele yourself to the fact that you do not have a gregarious, get along with any and everyone dog, and adjust interactions accordingly.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear his reactivity in increasing Old Shep, I know how you feel. Nooka's reactivity has increased since being attacked a few times, and she actually instigated handbags last week after the obnoxious little JRT barged in on her game with her best buddy. I've never seen her start it before but she isn't one to back down either. And this was off-lead where she usually copes well.

I wonder if there was anything that has stressed him out in the past few days? Even something insignificant to you might for some reason have stressed him out meaning he just went way over threshold when you got to the beach. And maybe he was having a bad day? (We all have them).

Not trying to play down the matter, it's not great when your dog reacts to every other dog around them and it can be really upsetting, but I'm just trying to think why he was so bad this time...


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

18 months is not that long in the grand scheme of things. I would say it took 5 years for Fred to be more reliable around other dogs, and I still have my heart in my mouth a little if a bouncy dogs bounds up to us while he's on lead.

It takes so long because so many things put you back - you could do everything right, then someone else lets their dog approach too closely, right when you thought you were getting somewhere.

Fred did suffer from being taught all the wrong things at training classes which made him worse before he got better.

If you look at your post (and I'm not picking on you, just looking at what happened), your dog was already wound up when you let him off lead, he had a grumble at one dog, then another, then he had the mouthful of fur from the next one. So his mood will be escalating with (possibly) yours escalating as well as you get stressed. He continued until you lost your temper and put him back on lead.

Really I am not having a go, and I understand why you kept him off lead if he is worse on than off. But when days like this happen, look back and see where maybe you would make changes to how you handle things. There's nothing wrong with getting back in the car after a bad start, letting things calm down, then trying again.

There was research into hamsters (the only study I could find!) that after an aggressive incident they were more likely to have another one as they were all fired up and this effect lasted about half an hour. So if you try to think that every incident your dog has, maybe you should take some time out to calm down before continuing. I have been in and out of the car like a yoyo some days...

One other thing I do with lead reactive dogs is to do a lot of lead work, so lead handling skills of all types, including clicker training tight leads.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Muzzle him. And keep him on a long line (trailing but be prepared to leap on the end. That is sensible management. It also means other people`s dogs are safe. 
Yes he just grumbles - but a timid dog might bolt and get on to a road / an ancient dog might fall in panic / a puppy might set back weeks with socialisation. 
I take antisocial dogs - I have never turned a dog around in less than a year - more often it takes longer. I can`t help feeling that more consistency and more patience is the key, not giving up.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks everyone. Just a few responses:


We have been workin on impulse control too, and actually, so long as he is not over threshold it's brilliant. I suppose I should be working on it in slightly more difficult situation. I suppose when I told him to leave it when the 2 spaniels passed is impulse control. Is that right? He did that just fine. 

He has not reacted to a dog on the beach for a very very long time as his recall away from other dogs has been excellent. This is why I left him off, but in hindsight, I should have put him back on lead sooner- even with all the unleashed dogs around.

And yes, I think the fact he was already fired up explains his horrible behaviour on the beach. The beach was also very busy (not normally a problem, though) and in this case was probably too much for him to bear.

I'm not convinced a muzzle is necessary- though a mouthful of fur could have been a mouthful of goldie I suppose ( thinking as I go along here). 

,I'm hoping to see the behaviourist this week ( a different one from the one I first saw- but she actually knows me and him better).


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Thanks everyone. Just a few responses:
> 
> We have been workin on impulse control too, and actually, so long as he is not over threshold it's brilliant. I suppose I should be working on it in slightly more difficult situation. I suppose when I told him to leave it when the 2 spaniels passed is impulse control. Is that right? He did that just fine.
> 
> ...


Or a mouthful of another dog's eye. How much damage to another dog are you prepared to be responsible for?

It could be that he sees you getting stroppy and telling him to leave other dogs is you stepping into a more leader/protector role; possibly something he needs. Of course I'm not advocating pack/dominance theory, but dogs do like to feel their owner will act to protect them, and that they have someone in charge.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I have had time to think about what happened yesterday and I think it was a case of a "perfect storm". 
He was already fired by the dogs on the way to the park, the tide was in, meaning there's less beach available and the beach was extremely busy- his bathtub of emotions just overflowed.

I now have a plan of action. I'm waiting to hear from the behaviourist, but while I'm waiting, I will walk him on lead only at low tide and when the beach is quiet- which isn't hard to do. If we see another dog approaching I will put him on his lead. This way, he still gets an outlet for his energy, but I'm keeping other dogs safe and limiting his ability to practice the behaviour. You can see for miles on the beach, so I'll see any dogs well in advance. When walking onlead I will use my leave it command (which, as has been said, may wear thin). In fact, we did an onlead walk this morning and met the dog walker with her 4 unruly charges. She nipped into an inshot when she saw me coming, and using the leave it command, he walked past with just a little stiffness- absolutly no vocalisation or tightness on the lead. Later me passed the rude jack russel and the woman put him on lead while we passed. Jack russel lunged and barked as we went past, but duke was fine- in fact, he started sniffing the ground ( which I think may have been displacement, showing he was still stressed).

When we got home, I made him wait in the car, with the door open, till I had collected all my stuff and opened the house door, so practicing more impulse control ( there are lots do birds around which he is programmed to hunt). He waited patiently till I released him.

I'm not at all thinking the "leave it!" Command is a magic bullit and I'm fairly certain it would wear off if I didn't do anything else, so that's why I want some input from the behaviourist.

Meanwhile, I'm feeling a bit more positive today. :thumbsup:


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I use Leave it with mine and it hasn't worn off, but I reward it reliably.






Except here where I said Leave three times and he did and I didn't reward it. Bad Mum... As soon as I did reward something he Left It. :-D Tinker wants to play, but Leave it works with Fred as well who sometimes wants to hump now that he doesn't want to nip their noses...

ooh, here's TinkerCam more recently 



 We've used 'Leave It' so frequently that he just leaves it without me telling him... Both him and Fred will now come back to me when they see people with dogs. You probably can't see, but there is a man with a GSD on lead who sees us and takes evasive action so clearly didn't want to be introduced to my two.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> Or a mouthful of another dog's eye. How much damage to another dog are you prepared to be responsible for?
> 
> It could be that he sees you getting stroppy and telling him to leave other dogs is you stepping into a more leader/protector role; possibly something he needs. Of course I'm not advocating pack/dominance theory, but dogs do like to feel their owner will act to protect them, and that they have someone in charge.


This. Rupert stopped reacting as much once he learned to go behind me, keep himself there and that I would step up and deal with the approaching dog. He'd still attack if they got past me but otherwise he let me deal with them.

However Rupert did not approach other dogs to start trouble. I'd actually have been even more concerned if he did. It's one thing to react to dogs in his face but another to seek out trouble. I know some seem to get a kick out of scrapping so that may be something to consider as a potential reason for his behaviour.


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> Or a mouthful of another dog's eye. How much damage to another dog are you prepared to be responsible for?
> 
> It could be that he sees you getting stroppy and telling him to leave other dogs is you stepping into a more leader/protector role; possibly something he needs. Of course I'm not advocating pack/dominance theory, *but dogs do like to feel their owner will act to protect them, and that they have someone in charge.*


I agree with this. Not advocating dominance theory either. Roxy has never been reactive but she gets stressed by very rude dogs who won't leave her alone. She would bark at them to get away from her. When I started being more proactive and stepping in as soon as I saw her get stressed (before the barking) she is now more relaxed. And if she does get uncomfortable, by anything not even just other dogs, instead of barking at what is stressing her out she barks at me to tell me she wants to be removed from the situation.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Impulse control/self control is more about the dog deciding not to react rather than it obeying a command so the dog obeying you when you told him to "leave it" is not impulse control.

Here are a few notes I made when I attended a seminar on impulse control:

*Set yourself small, achievable acts of self control.
*Give the dog time to look, smell and think so that it has the opportunity to make a decision itself.
*Threshold is determined by proximity, intensity and duration of the stimuli.
*If the dog is over threshold all you are doing at best is teaching the dog frustration tolerance and not self control. At worst you are allowing it to practice unwanted behaviours.

When it's not self control:

*When it is cued by the owner so it is not an autonomous response by the dog.
*When it is frustration tolerance and being managed by crates, leads, commands etc.
*When the dog is over threshold.
*Avoidance is not self control.

Hopefully that helps you in some way or another, even if it is just to think about your dogs reactions a little more.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I think some dogs do need to be just told what to do rather then only ignore and reward type of training.
A friend of mine who is hugely into reward and conditioned based training, had a problem with her young Munsterlander lunging at men, which was beginning to cause trouble. She is so good at training her dogs and really knows what she is on about, but he was so intent on doing the lunging that he ignored her. She was almost at the point of taking him back to the breeders as he was becoming uncontrollable and she was desparate. A long talk with the breed club and a change of training method which really went against the grain for her, but a strong 'leave it' worked wonders and the trust is back with the dog, so much so,shes got another one. Mad women that she is.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Thank you all for that. Clearly WHT I understood by impulse control isn't what is meant. I could get an Olympic medal in misunderstanding what I'm told! I'm off to do a bit of digging on the subject.

It's reassuring to read of other peoples experiences, so again, thanks for responding so positively, guys.
:thumbsup:


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> Impulse control/self control is more about the dog deciding not to react rather than it obeying a command so the dog obeying you when you told him to "leave it" is not impulse control.
> 
> Here are a few notes I made when I attended a seminar on impulse control:
> 
> ...


I was just about to post how the concept of impulse control is not well understood, but this sums it up brilliantly


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> Thanks everyone. Just a few responses:
> 
> We have been workin on impulse control too, and actually, so long as he is not over threshold it's brilliant. I suppose I should be working on it in slightly more difficult situation. I suppose when I told him to leave it when the 2 spaniels passed is impulse control. Is that right? He did that just fine.
> 
> ...


Yes, sometimes the increased stress/adrenaline from many encounters can result in an almost explosion. As you said, in hindsight, you should have popped him back on after the initial first grumble. That would have been my cue to act then and there. But sometimes it's hard to weigh the right decision up, especially if your boy has never actually gone further than an initial grumble. Now you know he can resort to actually 'tussling' with other dogs, I'd be keeping him on lead/long line at all times right now, unless like you say, you can find a quiet, dog free, area.

But I'm glad to hear you're feeling more positive today. That's the best attitude to have. Just get back out there and keep doing what you're doing, while you wait to hear back from your behaviourist.

re: muzzling, just depends on what you feel most comfortable with doing. Personally I don't muzzle as I feel I'm already taking sensible precautions to prevent Missy doing any harm. If your boy is generally more reactive and not aggressive I'd tend to agree that a muzzle probably isn't necessary.



Sarah1983 said:


> This. Rupert stopped reacting as much once he learned to go behind me, keep himself there and that I would step up and deal with the approaching dog. He'd still attack if they got past me but otherwise he let me deal with them.
> 
> However Rupert did not approach other dogs to start trouble. I'd actually have been even more concerned if he did. It's one thing to react to dogs in his face but another to seek out trouble. I know some seem to get a kick out of scrapping so that may be something to consider as a potential reason for his behaviour.


Oh boy would I love a dog that didn't start anything! Unfortunately Missy does, and goes out of her way to charge down another dog ( hence her never being off lead around them as she's totally untrustworthy )


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Siskin said:


> I think some dogs do need to be just told what to do rather then only ignore and reward type of training.
> A friend of mine who is hugely into reward and conditioned based training, had a problem with her young Munsterlander lunging at men, which was beginning to cause trouble. She is so good at training her dogs and really knows what she is on about, but he was so intent on doing the lunging that he ignored her. She was almost at the point of taking him back to the breeders as he was becoming uncontrollable and she was desparate. A long talk with the breed club and a change of training method which really went against the grain for her, but a strong 'leave it' worked wonders and the is trust back with the dog, so much so,she shot another one. Mad women that she is.


I absolutely agree. Tell the dog clearly what you want (leave that dog) and it might well happen. After over a year of trying the same thing, even if it works for a lot of dogs, it is obviously not right for your dog. The day that every dog/child/horse learns in the same way will be the day there is no need for any experts. We could all just follow the instruction book and have perfect animals and children. If you are following someones instruction book and it does not work then it is the wrong way for you and your dog.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> Impulse control/self control is more about the dog deciding not to react rather than it obeying a command so the dog obeying you when you told him to "leave it" is not impulse control.
> 
> Here are a few notes I made when I attended a seminar on impulse control:
> 
> ...


This is what I think of as impulse control, but has really straightened it out in my head, thanks Leanne :thumbup:

I see impulse control as the dog, say, not snaffling up the lump of chicken that I dropped on the floor, or not jumping out of the car boot, but all without being told. If I have to tell the dog to 'leave', that's not impulse control that's just training (and the dog will then be rewarded).

I'm glad you feel more positive today Old Shep, a good sleep and time to reflect usually helps


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Had a quick discussion with the behaviourist on the phone and she's going to get back to me with a date to meet up. Unfortunately, she's very busy is week, so it'll be next week before she can see us. In the interim, I'll be following plan A


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

It could have been a case of trigger-stacking so he was already tense and over threshold.

I have been through all the ups and downs that you are going through and still am to some extent.

Polo had a bad day a few weeks ago and kind of just felt a bit bombarded with dogs I think. He took a pop at a pup that he knows and then turned on a lurcher he is usually great with. She yelped and in the time it took me to March over to sort him out she had decided to give him a good telling off. He behaved after that!

On occasions I have got cross and firm with Polo and he has calmed himself down but as a long-term strategy it does not help and makes him worse.

I too made huge steps forward with Polo's off-leash behaviour but made very little progress on lead. 

I found the biggest leap forward with his on-lead reactivity was to just praise him whenever we saw another dog and move away. Every time. I taught the "let's go" doing about turns and changes of direction with no dogs about first. It seemed that he started to relax in the knowledge I wasn't trying to get him closer or force him to meet another dog and be ok with it. His distance threshold really improved once he understood he wasn't going to have to get close. 

I do this off leash aswell sometimes if walking a track with a dog coming head on. We just arc off the track and rejoin.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Something about spoons Ouesi posted a while ago is coming to my mind, would spoons be applicable in this instance Ouesi?

I've not got it totally right in my head in order to explain further!


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Leanne77 said:


> Something about spoons Ouesi posted a while ago is coming to my mind, would spoons be applicable in this instance Ouesi?
> 
> I've not got it totally right in my head in order to explain further!


Yes the spoons theory is trigger-stacking really.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Ah! Yes! Trigger stacking.

Memories being jogged. That makes sense.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> Something about spoons Ouesi posted a while ago is coming to my mind, would spoons be applicable in this instance Ouesi?
> 
> I've not got it totally right in my head in order to explain further!


Definitely. 
The more you learn your dog, the more you get a feel for when things are going to work and when theyre not. 
Unrelated scenario, but related thinking, Ive been at a show where I walked in to the ring with my dog, did less than a quarter of the heeling pattern, stopped, and politely excused myself to the judge and walked out of the ring with my dog. 
I knew that for whatever reason I didnt have my dog with me, he was in a bad place, and yeah, we could have fudged our way through the course and gotten a qualifying round, but it would have been sloppy and ugly, and worse, the dog would have had all that time in the ring to practice sloppy and ugly and not feeling good about the whole thing. So I chose to stop instead - some of the best advice Ive ever gotten too. Dont push through just for the sake of pushing through. Always stop well before the wheels fall off.

And you get to where you know the wheels are going to fall off. But us humans being humans, we just have to test it. Just like we push that elevator button again, knowing full well the lift isnt going to get there any faster, we just have to push that button one more time. Its hard, but you have to resist.

My rule of thumb with a snarky dog would be one snark and youre done for the day. Not as in punishment, but as in, lets lower the criteria WAY down to the easiest thing in the world and get the dog home in a good place mentally.

So like in the OP situation, I would have adjusted the plan at the first grumble or at least at the first bee line off leash. Back on leash and practice lots of getting rewarded for noticing a dog way way off in the distance at the easiest point of not reacting.


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## Freddie and frank (Mar 26, 2012)

Leanne77 said:


> Impulse control/self control is more about the dog deciding not to react rather than it obeying a command so the dog obeying you when you told him to "leave it" is not impulse control.
> 
> Here are a few notes I made when I attended a seminar on impulse control:
> 
> ...


^^^^^^THIS totally. :thumbsup:

I've been taking Frank to a wonderful trainer for a few months now and it all revolves around what's quoted here. 
He used to be quite reactive towards other dogs, still is on the odd occasion, but now I feel like I've got to know him and his triggers a lot more. 
It does get easier when you recognise their boundaries. 
Frank also has a rest day once a week to let him chill out and relax.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I afraid to say this I case it all goes wrong after today..

We had a really good beach walk today with absolutly no bad behaviour.

When I got him out the car in the car park a man appeared with a rottie and a collie onlead. Duke stared to stiffen and I said "leave it" and he just looked at me and actually seemed to relax!

We only met a couple do dogs on the beach and they were far away, but I still put him onlead till they were gone.

On the way back to the car, onlead, we met the usual ESS which is pretty crazy. It was onlead and usually Duke takes great exception to it, so, I prompted this and gave him _the command_ and again he just looked away and seemed to relax.

So either he's just taken aback at what he sees as my weird response

Or, he inks he's done something wrong and is confused

Or, and I hesitate to say this as it's probably totally wrong, he thinks, "oh! You *don't* want me to get rid of that dog! Is that it?"

Will this be effective in actually changing his behaviour, or will it merely suppress it for a while and come back with a vengeance?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Glad you had a better walk today 

Who knows how long this change will last, but make the most of it! 

Every positive experience is a step in the right direction


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I was so relaxed after the walk. I don't think I realise how tense I get, and that, of course will be affecting his response.

Maybe my just thinking it'll work, and therefore relaxing me, will actually cause him to chill more.

I'm also aware of the possibility of me pushing too far too fast just now.


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> I afraid to say this I case it all goes wrong after today..
> 
> We had a really good beach walk today with absolutly no bad behaviour.
> 
> ...


As already posted about the leave it cue, if it's not dog directed it's not really impulse control. As to what associations the dog is making, without really seeing it, it's hard to say. I'd definitely defer to the behaviorist's opinion on that one.
I do know that with every cue, the dog is storing up emotional responses as well, and it is very possible to teach a positive emotional response (or negative one) with every cue you teach. This will all tie in together in what ultimate outcome you have with Duke.

I like Leslie McDevitt's book "Control Unleashed" for lots of good impulse control exercises to work on with other dogs. "Look at that" and "dog in your face" would be two good ones right off the top of my head. At home, you could up his impulse control with some of Susan Garrett's crate games stuff. All of that is fantastic too.

Whatever you do, just remember that there is no quick fix, and that progress is rarely linear. You'll have good days and there will be bad days, but at the end of the day, as long as the overall emotional experience for the dog was mostly positive, you will move forward. IME at least...


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I've been reading this with interest.

2 behaviourists now have told me that Dex looks to me in a situation he is unsure of (subject to that situation being below his threshold), because he does not know how to deal with it himself - and if he does he inevitably gets it wrong. So is giving a "cue" to a dog who makes bad decisions on their own always a bed thing?

I know they are supposed to make their own correct decisions, but when you have a dog who has looked at "the box" twice in the 5 hours (obviously ot all at once, and not everyday which is probably the problem) I have attempted the box game with him, is it ever ok to think for ya dog?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> So either he's just taken aback at what he sees as my weird response
> 
> Or, he inks he's done something wrong and is confused
> 
> ...


Or he sees you telling him to leave it as you taking control of the situation so he doesn't need to do so.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> I've been reading this with interest.
> 
> 2 behaviourists now have told me that Dex looks to me in a situation he is unsure of (subject to that situation being below his threshold), because he does not know how to deal with it himself - and if he does he inevitably gets it wrong. So is giving a "cue" to a dog who makes bad decisions on their own always a bed thing?
> 
> I know they are supposed to make their own correct decisions, but when you have a dog who has looked at "the box" twice in the 5 hours (obviously ot all at once, and not everyday which is probably the problem) I have attempted the box game with him, is it ever ok to think for ya dog?


Box game?

Yes I think it's perfectly fine to make decisions for your dog, I'm sure we all do so in many situations. But when it comes to things like reacting to other dogs, chasing wildlife or cars, rushing out to bark at someone passing the garden etc it really does seem more effective to teach the dog to make the right choice without relying on being cued by the owner.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Its in "when pigs fly"

Website for Jane Killion, author of When Pigs Fly!: Training Success With Impossible Dogs. Dog training for difficult, stubborn, and non-biddable breeds of dog. Dog training, particularly for terriers and hounds. Basic training, training for behavior

Its about teaching a dog to think for itself, starting with looking at a box..... Dex really does not get it.... love him.....


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Its in "when pigs fly"
> 
> Website for Jane Killion, author of When Pigs Fly!: Training Success With Impossible Dogs. Dog training for difficult, stubborn, and non-biddable breeds of dog. Dog training, particularly for terriers and hounds. Basic training, training for behavior
> 
> Its about teaching a dog to think for itself, starting with looking at a box..... Dex really does not get it.... love him.....


Oh, I love playing 101things to do with a box with Spencer but I find the dogs I've trained and helped to train got really confused and frustrated with it until they were familiar with being shaped to do things. And if he wasn't looking at it I'd have lowered criteria personally, clicked for accidental movement in the direction of it, tossed a treat to set up something I could click for, just something to get a starting point. Nor would I get hung up on a specific behaviour initially, touching the box may be a clearer one to the dog at first.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> I've been reading this with interest.
> 
> 2 behaviourists now have told me that Dex looks to me in a situation he is unsure of (subject to that situation being below his threshold), because he does not know how to deal with it himself - and if he does he inevitably gets it wrong. So is giving a "cue" to a dog who makes bad decisions on their own always a bed thing?
> 
> I know they are supposed to make their own correct decisions, but when you have a dog who has looked at "the box" twice in the 5 hours (obviously ot all at once, and not everyday which is probably the problem) I have attempted the box game with him, is it ever ok to think for ya dog?


I do with Roxy. We had such little progress when I was seeing a behaviourist & whilst I do agree that alowing her to make her own decisions is the better option & one she will learn from (long term) it just wasn't working for us. Her behaviour had become such a habit & was something she had learned to do that she did it without thinking - if that makes sense.

We met so few dogs when out that when we did it was like going back to square one each time & tbh I was sick of it. I know people say that it takes time, etc but after nearly 2yrs & her kicking off (although not as badly as initially) I wanted it to stop. Now, she's not allowed to look at the other dog, look at me & it works for us.

She will never be the sort of dog who is fine with other dogs close by, or with other dogs who run over to her but this is her & I am fine with this (much, much more relaxed than i used to be!!) We attend courses all over the place & regular training classes, etc which we both enjoy


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Oh, I love playing 101things to do with a box with Spencer but I find the dogs I've trained and helped to train got really confused and frustrated with it until they were familiar with being shaped to do things. And if he wasn't looking at it I'd have lowered criteria personally, clicked for accidental movement in the direction of it, tossed a treat to set up something I could click for, just something to get a starting point. Nor would I get hung up on a specific behaviour initially, touching the box may be a clearer one to the dog at first.


Ohh yeah tried all that..... :nonod: but like I said i think with him it is a combination of not being able to train consistently daily, and him being well reliant on mummy.....

and dogs have to learn to be "shaped" from somewhere lol


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Interesting thread 

Glad 'leave it' it is working for you. I hope you continue to make progress


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Ohh yeah tried all that..... :nonod: but like I said i think with him it is a combination of not being able to train consistently daily, and him being well reliant on mummy.....
> 
> and dogs have to learn to be "shaped" from somewhere lol


They do but I have more success getting started by just clicking whatever they do. Paw shifts, ear movement, head turns, whatever really.

To be honest though I think use whatever works for you and your dog. I love shaping, have a lot of success with it and spen has a blast throwing behaviours at me and experimenting. Rupert preferred to be told what was expected of him and stuck to the same few tried and tested behaviours in box games.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I afraid to say this I case it all goes wrong after today..
> 
> We had a really good beach walk today with absolutly no bad behaviour.
> 
> ...


In terms of trigger stacking, and what you've previously posted about incidents on the beach, it occurs to me there might be a few triggers stacked just by going there in the first place. Is there nowhere else you can walk, a different beach perhaps that doesn't have the same memories/connotations for Duke? I appreciate you need an area with open visibility for approaching dogs. He might be more relaxed/less likely to kick off in a different place.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Or he sees you telling him to leave it as you taking control of the situation so he doesn't need to do so.


I've been using 'leave' with Elles for a while now, getting on for a year I think. I can tell her 'leave', she'll pointedly ignore the dog (she's not keen on dogs either) and then I tell her 'well done' 'good girl' and reward her with a toy, ball or cheese, depending on what seems appropriate for the situation. She already knew 'leave' as a different command to one I use for dropping a ball for example, which is 'thank you'. Leave is for something I don't want her to touch in the first place, including dogs, cats, squirrels, sheep, horses, dropped food, horse poo... etc

She's become much more relaxed around dogs and has more dog friends now than she had when I feel she thought she had to help defend us both from them, especially those rude dogs with no manners.

Worked for me.  YMMV of course.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> I afraid to say this I case it all goes wrong after today..
> 
> We had a really good beach walk today with absolutly no bad behaviour.
> 
> ...


Hard to say but something similar happened with me and Polo.

Telling him to "leave" seems to agitate him further. Saying "come" was a bit like " why didn't you just that in the first place?"

Lol our dogs are so weird.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Just wanted to say, when I say 'leave' I say it in a nice way, not a forceful, dominatrix type of way. The same way I'd say sit, or hi5.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

The leave command has always meant " don't bother that thing". So I'd use it for livestock or dropped food.

I also say " thank you" for dropping a toy.


As for the beach itself being a stressor, I use that particular beach 2/3 times a week and always early when there are very very few dogs around- actually usually none. I can literally see for miles on the beach and it's easy to take avoiding action.

I'm going to walk him round the village again tomorrow (we do this about 3 times a week). I'm thinking of trying to time the walk to meet the dog walker again. I can use evasive action if I feel he's getting too stressed.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Walked from the village to the farm butchery this morning. Passed an ESS immediatly as we turned a corners gave the command and he didn't bat an eyelash!

Further on we met man with 2 whippets. Now, he likes whippets, and although we passed these particular dogs last week and he didn't react, there was a fair distance between us. Tis time we were on the single track road. I gave it a shot. Gave the command, then wished the old gentleman a good morning. My word! He didn't react at all!

We got to the farm* and I tied him to a gate post and told him to sit, and I went in To order my Christmas meat. 

Came out a few minutes later and he was till sitting like a rock. Well done, Duke! That must have been a 5 minute out of sight stay!

On the return trip we met Dottie the grumpy lab, who always barks as we go past. Dottie was I. The field with her owner, so I called the owner and said he wasn't good with dogs, so she called Dottie over, who by this time was making for us and barking. I told Duke to "leave it!" As before and although the lead was tight and he made some puffing sounds he in no way kicked off.

I did notice that on this walk I was much much more relaxed as I was hoping the command would help when we met other dogs. I suppose that helps too. And the adaptil spray all over this Yellow Dog coat 

* the butchery is part of a local farm. There is no one there. I wouldn't generally leave him tied up outside, but this is a large farmyard with no dogs. You can see any cars coming up the drive and have time to retrieve him. I'm not advocating leaving dogs unattended I. Public places. His wasn't a public place.


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## Rahoulb (Dec 17, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> I did notice that on this walk I was much much more relaxed as I was hoping the command would help when we met other dogs. I suppose that helps too. And the adaptil spray all over this Yellow Dog coat


Haha - I thought Adaptil had no effect on humans


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> Walked from the village to the farm butchery this morning. Passed an ESS immediatly as we turned a corners gave the command and he didn't bat an eyelash!
> 
> Further on we met man with 2 whippets. Now, he likes whippets, and although we passed these particular dogs last week and he didn't react, there was a fair distance between us. Tis time we were on the single track road. I gave it a shot. Gave the command, then wished the old gentleman a good morning. My word! He didn't react at all!
> 
> ...


To be honest I think the attitude/emotions/stress levels of the human in these situations makes a massive difference.


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## zoemon (Jun 29, 2014)

Its really great to hear that something is helping! We've not had our first BAT session with our behaviourist yet, so over this last week, I've been teaching BamBam 'Leave It' indoors - using a tennis ball slowly rolling past him, tennis balls are his absolute fave, and some meat as the reward when he doesn't go for the ball. 

The few occasions where there has been a dog in the distance out on a walk, and his ears have pricked up, I've told him Leave It, and he's pretty much instantly chilled out! 

Gonna keep on with it, as we need to do something that will help us relax whilst out with him, which will ultimately help him too


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Another great, if a little sparse on dogs, walk.



Met my friend at forestry car park (she has 2 lovely collies) and went for a nice off lead walk. Duke kept returning to me- more than usual. Was he feeling a little insecure? Who knows!
On the way back to th car park, I popped him back on his lead as I thought here may be some dogs around. A woman approached with a very bouncy lab, who she put on the lead when she saw us. I just walked to the side a little ( it was a black lab who attacked him, and doggist that he is, he blames all black labs) my friend made her dogs wait while I walked on. Unfortunately when she released her dogs the ran past the lab very fast and he lunged and barked. However, Duke didn't take a blind bit of notice!

I looked back in my diary and this is now day 5 of this approach. I am so much more relaxed and I have noticed that his lead walking is much improved (it wasn't too bad- just that he would pull intermittently. But he seems to rarely pull now).

We have gundog training tomorrow. He hates the 2 Munsters and the ESS. Let's see how we get on.

*feeling positive*


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

This is very interesting and good to see how your new found confidence seems to be rubbing off onto your dog. I do hope it continues.

Good luck


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Hopefully he continues to improve. :thumbup:

If it goes a bit pear shaped at gun dog training, could he have a break from it for a bit, until he's even more relaxed? Or maybe go to different gundog training where there aren't specific dogs he doesn't like?

Of course it will probably be fine. 

Good luck!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Elles said:


> Hopefully he continues to improve. :thumbup:
> 
> If it goes a bit pear shaped at gun dog training, could he have a break from it for a bit, until he's even more relaxed? Or maybe go to different gundog training where there aren't specific dogs he doesn't like?
> 
> ...


He seems to take exception to most dogs other than collies and whippet/greyhound/lurcher types. These are the ones he walks with most as they are my friends dogs.

I'm planning some walking next week (onlead) with my friend and her doodle. We have walked side by side before, but we work up to it. She starts off and I catch her up- very slowly closing the gap- till they are side by side. Her dog is a honey- just loves everyone! First time Duke met her we didn't do it this way and he reacted badly, but after that we did the " catch up" thing and he's more settled. I think because he sees her and she's walking away, so no threat. He doesn't seem to realise we will catch her up!

I'm looking forward to gundog training tomorrow for a change. It's also in the big field which I prefer. There's tons of space and no casual dog walkers!

I'll report back!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> ...
> I'm also aware of the possibility of me *pushing too far, too fast*, just now.


This is such an unfortunate common human failing. :nonod: We are SO prone to "test to failure"!

Yes, it's really important to keep them under threshold; simple but telling details such as TURNING him
at an angle to an approaching dog, getting off onto the shoulder of a bike-path or walking path to let others
pass by with a bit of distance, or go up someone's drive a few feet to get off a sidewalk when another dog
is approaching [from ahead or behind], etc.

Small things can really, really help.

- muffle or silence HIS tags, to reduce OTHER dogs' reactions to him -
remember, behavior is a conversation, not a monologue. 
Wrap a sturdy rubber-band round his tags, & replace it when the UV eats it up.
Buy a 'Quiet, Spot!' tag-bag of neoprene.
Wrap his tags in masking or painter's tape.
Etc.

- Use OTC calmatives liberally, & in combination.
Single post on What, When, How, etc:
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

- Buy a Calming-Cap; have him wear it round the house before bed for a few minutes.
Then put it on for meals, take it off after. Then wear it for naptime & other peaceful, contented times.
THEN... take it on the road, but keep using it at least 2 to 3 times weekly when he's happy, secure,
& relaxed. [Otherwise it's tainted by the constant stress associations.]

- *Remember:*
Triggers are not ADDITIVE - they are EXPONENTIAL.
2 triggers is not 1 + 1 = 2; it's 2 *TIMES* 2 = *4 times as hard to cope*.
Always reduce expectations & criteria when any distraction or new context arises, & give him MORE
help when there is any distraction - more distance, have him *behind* U, turn him side-on, anything.
.
.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Best gundog session, EVER!

He was brilliant! He only had a little stiffness a couple of times and a little whine. He even kept his attention on me when the little cocker slipped her lead and came tearing over. She was only a bout 2 metres away, but he didn't look- he kept watching me!

I took what LfL was saying about " testing it till it breaks " and put him in the car at the end when I returned to pick up my things - I was deliberating taking him with me as there was the possibility of dog walkers to meet. Thank goodness I did! Out do a big Chelsea tractor came 2 jack Russell's, 2 labs and a collie, running full pelt offlead- not only at, they mobbed a young vizsla on the path, rushing up and barking in a nasty was in her face- I was appalled at the dog owners reaction which was, basically, nothing! One of the labs and both jackets sells were terrorising the poor vizla. It just stood still and quaked.
Thank goodness I didn't have duke with me!

He's having a day off tomorrow as I'm going to a seminar. My husband will be at home and he'll get playing in the garden with my old dog and mooching about.

I have a session with the behaviourist on Monday, too.

:thumbsup:


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm so glad you've had a positive couple of days Old Shep, it really helps confidence doesn't it? Plus you're more relaxed, so Duke is more relaxed, win-win!

Not pushing too far is something that's hard to do, as when things are going well you tend to let your guard down and think it will be OK. I now male sure I end on a positive note. If you're happy and the day/session has gone well - stop. Just like you did at your gundog session! Brilliant! :thumbup:

Don't be too upset if there are setbacks though, it happens to everyone and sometimes things happen that are out of our control. Just try and remember all the positives and not dwell on the bad days.

Fingers crossed this continues


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

First walk after my 1:1 with the behaviourist and I couldn't have asked for anything more!

Went to beach with my friend and her 2 whippets. It was uncharacteristically busy as the morning was sunny, so instead of making straight to the beach we walked through the dunes where we didn't meet any other dogs. We then went down onto the beach which was deserted at that part and had a lovely walk. On the way back we decided to go back through the dunes to void the busy part near the car park.

Lo and behold, we met 3 separate black labs (his arch nemesis!). I pulled off the path into the shrub and if I saw him stiffen, I just said "leave it" and I swear I could see him relax! We had no problems! Even with the last lab that would not go with it's owner and came back to stare at us- the lab was very stiff and "star ey" if you know what I mean, and although duke looked at it and it was staring at him he never reacted. He got lots and lots of treats for that!

Tomorrow we are doing a quiet walk where we very rarely meet dogs.

I am so chuffed my face is sore from grinning!

Forgot to add we also met a staffy and terrier when he was offlead on the path. He gave an almost inaudible growl when the stafy came up to him and then he ran to me! Lots and lots of treats there!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Brilliant update .


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Brilliant!! :thumbup:

I hope the 1:1 was helpful too


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