# I'm New to The Site and Considering Cat Breeding



## gemini2 (Dec 5, 2010)

I have never bred animals before, but I have always loved cats. I have recently been entertaining the thought of purchasing a breeding pair of persians. I am aware of the fact that it will cost a good sum of money to do this, yet I believe I'm prepared to make the investment.
My concerns, though, are the following: 1) I live in a one bedroom apartment 2)I am concerned about the spraying the unneutered male would do.

Does this sound like a venture I should consider going ahead with? It's not like I'm looking to breed many cats; just what the breeding pair would produce.
When I was a child, my family had a male and a female cat who were both unaltered and the female could keep us and our neighbors up all night with her yelping. Are there injections a vet could give a cat in estrus to keep her yelping to a minimum? The male we had did some spraying which created bad odors. Is there anything one could do to prevent this behavior? How do cat breeders prevent their studs from stinking up their homes?
I would deeply appreciate your opinions and advice.


----------



## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Hi & welcome to the PF 

It is a very expensive hobby & can be very upsetting. My friend used to breed Maine Coons years ago she had fantastic cats but lost her beutiful queen when she developed complications giving birth & the vet could'nt save her or the kittens  Idealey you need alot of space as full toms not only spray but have been known to kill kittens to bring the queen back into season 

If I was you I would'nt.


----------



## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

Hi

I have just replied in another post but basically it would not be ideal to have a stud boy in an apartment - high chance he will spray. You may be better off just getting the girl and taking her out to stud. Girls, especially breeding queens, _can_ (but not all!) "mark" and will pee particularly on soft furnishings.

If you go ahead ask the breeder you get your girl off if she can help you to arrange/recommend another breeder who will let you into stud (unless she has another stud unrelated to your girl she would let you use).

Overid and Delvastron (spelling?) can be used to stop a girl from calling but should not be used lightly as they can have side effects so you should think long and hard about using them.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I definitely would not want to breed kittens (even just the queen and kittens) in a one bedroom apartment.

As for a stud, for me that's a definite NO in such limited space and close proximity to the neighbours. 

I dont know how it would even be possible to keep a stud in one bedroom apartment. Where would he live? What would constitute his stud quarters? 

Apart from the spraying and noise issues, how could you possibly cope with separation? Would that even be physically possible in a one bedroom flat? 

Youre in an apartment so chances are you dont just have neighbours on either side, but also above and below you. Have you considered the noise issues for your neighbours (and yourselves)? If I was one of your neighbours I would HATE this idea, lol. 

You also have to consider I dont quite know how to put this (politely, lol) but a stud cat has to errr ummmm well get enough. I am no expert on this, but you really MUST check with people who know (good ethical breeders) and see if this guy wouldnt be going out of his mind with pent up frustration just because he is only getting it once a year. 

You said you werent planning to breed many cats, just what the breeding pair would produce. Well.... what a pair of cats WOULD produce and SHOULD produce (to ensure the health of the queen and any kittens she has) are two very different things. 

I also would not consider getting into breeding unless I had an experienced and responsible breeder to mentor me every step of the way (literally there to take my every and any call at the drop of a hat, and to come when needed). I have a fair old amount of experience with kittens and cats in general, but no way I am experienced enough to breed without constant mentoring and coaching. 

I hope that helps...


----------



## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

gemini2 said:


> 1) I live in a one bedroom apartment
> 
> 2)I am concerned about the spraying the unneutered male would do.
> 
> I would deeply appreciate your opinions and advice.


My opinion is , you would be making a *HUGE* mistake, both for yourself and any cats. My advice is, stop even considering this venture a possibility.


----------



## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

BSH said:


> My opinion is , you would be making a *HUGE* mistake, both for yourself and any cats. My advice is, stop even considering this venture a possibility.


Wholeheartedly agree with this advice 

I don't breed, but have breeder friends - very, very experienced, ethical breeder friends, and from what you've said about your living accommodation, you definitely do not have the space to breed.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

BSH said:


> My opinion is , you would be making a *HUGE* mistake, both for yourself and any cats. My advice is, stop even considering this venture a possibility.


I agree.

It might be worth asking yourself what your motives are for breeding too. Honest motives ...

You mention "investment" which makes it sound something like a proposed business venture :confused1:

If you trully want to breed and for the right reasons, go along to some cat shows, speak to persian cat breeders and ask their thoughts/advice. There are so many people breeding pedigree cats now it's unbelievable, many are struggling to sell them in our area and it's not unusual for them to end up in rescue, or as aduts at a "reduced price" in adverts. So .... Breeding is a big responsibilty 

Loving cats is one thing ..... breeding them quite another.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

BSH said:


> My opinion is , you would be making a *HUGE* mistake, both for yourself and any cats. My advice is, stop even considering this venture a possibility.


very well said! :thumbsup:

(I am trying to fluffy up my posts at the moment as some members think I should be less blunt... but posts like this... it's very tricky to be too pc and too welcoming as the message does get lost in the delivery when one is too pink & fluffy, my true feelings are exactly as yours)


----------



## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

I agree 100% with the other replies on this, its def not a good idea to keep a stud cat in a one bed apartment. keeping a breeding queen and then having her visit a reputable stud when she is in call is a far better option, I have no idea how much research or homework you have given this but please dont think its just something you can just walk into, Breeding cats is very hard work indeed and before you can even consider breeding theres a mountain of things you need to learn first, My suggestion would be to get yourself a mentor , learn all you can from them , then see if you still wish to become a breeder. When we wanted to start breeding we waited about 3 years before getting our first queen and learned as much as possible until the time was right. Most reputable breeders who keep stud cats are usually housed outdoors in purpose built cat houses where they live most of their lives. so to sum up, my advice would be to think long and hard before venturing into this. No one here wishes to sound negative on this but its so easy to make mistakes and unfortunatley in the breeding world its so easy to make mistakes and then become tarnished with the tag of Back Yard Breeder, and non of us wishes to see that, best wishes ...........CHRIS.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

cant add more apart from good breeders will Not sell a stud to someone with less than 3 queens 

as he will need more than 1 - 2 matings a year, also you will need to keep them seperate some of the time.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

One of the peculiarities in persians (which will sound very odd to some of us in other breeds) is that there are very few studs available to the public. It is regarded as the norm amongst persian breeders that if you are going to breed you have your own boy from the outset. Probably the fact that persians are so easy in terms of temperament is a factor here. But in this case, in a one bed apartment, I agree it's a non-starter. A couple of girls would be a possibility (I first started breeding in a bedsit flat!) but not a boy. Perhaps the OP needs to consider another breed if she really wants to go down this route, and just use other people's studs. There is an awful lot to be said for that.

Liz


----------



## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

First of all i think you deserve some recognition for posting your questions. You have been totally honest about your situation and i think that says a lot :thumbup:

I have to agree with what's been said before and say that it's not a good idea.

If you really would like to breed (personally i would try a female persian as a pet, or even a neutered male) and see how you get on.

If you then decide they are for you then just get ONE female and take her to a stud male.

I personally think that someone needs outdoor runs to house a male cat, and at least 3 females to ensure he gets enough sex to keep him happy and healthy.

Have you had persians before? They are very high maintenance and aren't for beginners!!


----------



## Guest (Dec 5, 2010)

A certain amount of seperation is needed between the male and female and you could not do that in such a small space.

My cat winter (hes a cross breed) has a allergy to most medications and a test was carried out that showed he was allergic to anastetic (sp?) but his spaying was so bad that I decided that it was worth the risk to nueter him as it wasnt fair on him or me. Could you live with that smell in such a small space?

Also as a multi-cat household I can vouch for how loud two cats are when they are playing (running round after eachother) let alone when mating. Would you and the people living below or above you mind?

I think the wise thing to do would be to wait until you can offer more space.

Good luck.


----------



## gemini2 (Dec 5, 2010)

I've been considering purchasing a stud and arranging for a friend of mine to keep him in his apartment in a very large expensive cage. I remember the unneutered cat my family had as a child and, like I said, I'm afraid of the spraying he would do. Would a stud who's being kept by himself in a large cage with toys and a human companion in another apartment keep him from being too much trouble? I've read that a stud who's just being caged even part of the time can make loud "lonliness" noises. 
What if I were to get two or three females and keep them in my apartment, and bring them over to my friend's apartment for matings; whenever they went into estrus? I've considered the possibility of keeping my prospective stud with someone else due to the spraying issues; would he make noises, though. I've heard keeping a spayed female cat with a stud will keep him from feeling lonely. Will that keep him from making loud noises in an extremely large cage with several levels and lots of toys; hammock included? 
I've wanted to do this since I was a child; breeding cats. I don't see myself moving into a house anytime soon, but I'd LOVE to do this! I'm dying to!Will keeping a spayed female with him keep him from feeling lonely? 
It's been mentioned that if a stud doesn't have at least three females available, he'll misbehave. What if I kept three queens with me? Would three queens who are always being brought over to the male pose problems in my apartment? Once they're mated, they don't go into estrus, right? 
As far the cost, I can handle it. I love cats, and I'm intersted in breeding cats as a hobby and making some money from it. I'm checking out catteries in North America and Europe online. I'm prepared to travel abroad to make this dream I've had for the past fifteen years come true(I'm 34, now::scared. By the way, here in my country; finding a stud service isn't that easy since everyone seems to be attemting to monopolize the pedigree cat market. That's why Im considering traveling abroad to find a baby stud.


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

I think life in a cage, no matter how big, is very cruel on any cat!

Also a new breeder really should be starting slowly with a good mentor not buying 3 queens and a stud, you will soon find yourself in over your head!

Like other's have suggested try buying the one queen and get a good breeder to mentor you, use public stud for now and learn the ropes.

A lot of people start breeding and soon discover it's not for them (me included) and you don't want that to happen after you have just spent a lot of money getting 4 or 5 cats.

Start small, learn all about breeding, genetics, the breed you are interested in etc. and go from there.

I would recomend you go along to a couple of cat shows also, it's the best way to meet people in the breeding world, learn lots and get a good mentor.


----------



## Guest (Dec 6, 2010)

Is there any reason you want to do this or is it just that you want to?

I would start off by getting a male and having him neutered, get to know the breeds personality traits first off. Then find a GOOD breeder, who health tests and work from there. You may find that breeders wont give you a queen on the active register because you live in a small apartment. 

You also have to remember alot of breeders show their cats and with great pride they may not be willing to just give it you and go. 

Rushing into such a important thing is just silly and as for keeping a stud in a cage for its life...thats just cruel and unfair. Will the stud get attention? After all this friend is doing it as a favor to you.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

OP, theres a lot of holes in your logic, sorry, it just doesnt seem like you have thought this through very well at all.

Basically I agree with Sheltandlover and Cat Crazy.

Now apart from the obvious restriction issues with caging that the other two ladies have already addressed a cage by its very nature does not stop a stud spraying and would not stop the house stinking to high heaven and would not stop any of the other issues already mentioned in earlier posts. It would only restrict _where_ he sprays or make noise. Not the fact that he _does_ spray and make noise. The house would still stink. The neighbours would still complain etc etc. A cage doesnt stop noise and it doesnt stop smells, no matter how expensive those cages are, how many toys are in those cages, and if they have a hammock or not, a cage is a cage.

We all have to restrict our hobbies to the resources we have available to us. You have to ask yourself if breeding cats in your current circumstances is the right thing to do (for the cats that is, not for yourself).

We have plenty of breeders in this forum, who have studs in proper stud quarters, with more than enough females to keep them busy and more than enough neuters to keep them company, many of these studs still cause noise and smell issues not just for their owners but also the people living around them.

Another idea to add to the many already given to you (looking for a mentor, attending cat shows etc)  why not visit your local rescue centre and see if you can become a foster mum for them. That way you can get an idea of what just one mother cat and a litter of kittens entails in a one bedroom apartment.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, I suppose it depends on your definition of "extremely large cage". You need to be looking at a floor area of 36 square feet, high enough for you to walk in, as an absolute minimum, and I really do mean an absolute minimum. My boy has 72 square feet (32 open, 24 open fronted and 16 completely closed), height ranging from 5 foot to 6 foot, and I'm not convinced that is really enough.

Three females should be enough, yes. But honestly, if you think you are going to make money out of this venture, forget it. Unless you have a breed that sells for a lot more than the average, all you will have is an expensive hobby. Honestly. I agree with those who say you need to start more slowly. If you get a good breeding female, any breeder worth dealing with will find you a stud to use, breeders have contacts you won't have.

Liz


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Personally, I do not think this is a good idea. A one-bedroom flat is hardly big enough for one cat, let alone a breeding pair. A stud male will definitely spray. Not worth it.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gemini2 said:


> I've been considering purchasing a stud and arranging for a friend of mine to keep him in his apartment in a very large expensive cage.


What an awful life for any cat, stud cat or not he's a sentient, living creature, cats should not be made to live their lives out in cages. However you choose to describe it, a cage is a cage. It's tantamount to cruelty.

You have already said you want to make money from breeding and it seems this motivation outweighs any welfare issues alas 

However ... I personally don't believe anyone would want to keep an unneutered male cat (which isn't even their own) in their apartment for you. Which makes me kind of believe this is a bit of a "wind up" or you are simply letting your imagination run away with you


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I personally don't believe anyone would want to keep an unneutered male cat (which isn't even their own) in their apartment for you. Which makes me kind of believe this is a bit of a "wind up" or you are simply letting your imagination run away with you


You know I was thinking along similar lines I have always considered myself lucky (heck honored) to have friends who will indulge my cat passion and help with my rescues efforts. Whether I ask for money or blankets or a car to take me to a vet, or even an awake person to bottle feed for one night to allow me to get a nights sleep I always have at least one friend willing to step up to the plate (thank god because I could not do it without them!). However. as good hearted and cat loving as they are, I cant think of one would take an unneutered male into their home. LOL. I can only imagine this friend of the OPs is totally clueless cat wise and in no time would be ordering the OP to remove the smelly noisy thing she has deposited in his home.


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I don't think there's anymore I can add on here that hasn't already been said.
It would not be fair to keep a stud cat in such conditions. He would still spray and yowl for mates.
If you really love cats so much then just consider having one, perhaps two neutered boys or spayed girls as pets. Perhaps think about showing them. Many people get a great deal of satisfaction from showing 
There really isn't enough money in breeding to make any kind of living from it and if things go wrong it could become a very expensive hobby.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Tje said:


> You know I was thinking along similar lines I have always considered myself lucky (heck honored) to have friends who will indulge my cat passion and help with my rescues efforts. Whether I ask for money or blankets or a car to take me to a vet, or even an awake person to bottle feed for one night to allow me to get a nights sleep I always have at least one friend willing to step up to the plate (thank god because I could not do it without them!). However. as good hearted and cat loving as they are, I cant think of one would take an unneutered male into their home. LOL. I can only imagine this friend of the OPs is totally clueless cat wise and in no time would be ordering the OP to remove the smelly noisy thing she has deposited in his home.


You know, I can remember one morning many years ago, hubby went out to work as usual, but was back within ten minutes. The car in front of him had hit a cat, which then crawled into bushes. So... hubby and I went out with cat basket, found injured cat and took it to vet surgery (I was involved with animal rescue at time).

Cat was an entire male, turned out he had a fractured pelvis. Obviously vet did not want to neuter until cat had recovered from shock of RTA. 
Soooooooo .... I had an uneutered Tom in my house for about 2 weeks! Living in utility room and boy the SMELL. Thank heavens I have a cat loving husband, the house reeked, I could smell it when I opened fornt door 

It wasn't an ideal situation, but poor cat had nowhere else to go and we just had to get on with it. But as a permanent addition in the home .... NO WAY :scared:

Thankfully, kitty was castrated, his pelvis healed in it's own time and he went to a lovely home. But let's just say that this was one cat that I have NEVER forgotten bless him


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I had an uneutered Tom in my house for about 2 weeks! Living in utility room and boy the SMELL.


the last similar one I had... it was almost this exact time of the year, just before Christmas... okay he had been neutered JUST before he came to me (he had to go under the knife to fix all the other damage holligans had inflicted upon him, so they neutered at the same time) and I could not open a window in my foster room as it was so cold, but my god it was eye watering in that room upstairs... and even downstairs it was the first thing you smelled when you came in the front door. AND I should add, this guy didn't spray one single time, this was just his urine! And yes, these cats are definitely memorable. LOL.

So yep, I think we can safely say the OP's friend has no idea what he is offering to do.


----------



## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

I am a cat lover too. I have experience of breeding dogs and would love a litter of cute fluffy kittens around the home HOWEVER its not always the sensible option to follow your heart.

The reality of breeding is very different. It is hard work and expensive. You say money is not a problem - if so then perhaps look into buying/renting a bigger property where neighbours will be less of a problem.

From a buyers point of view I would want to see the mum and dad in a happy, clean and loving environment. Seeing a caged cat would stop me in my tracks. I would want tosee both sets of parents, so would your friend be happy having strangers in his home?

Perhaps you should do some more research and put some money away so that in a few years timeyou are better placed to breed cats.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

alaun said:


> You say money is not a problem - if so then perhaps look into buying/renting a bigger property where neighbours will be less of a problem.


lol, that is actually an axcellent point and I don't know how I missed it!! If money isn't an issue then neither should it be an issue to have enough space to breed cats properly.


----------



## Gem16 (Aug 5, 2010)

And imagine if you bred all 3 females at the same time ( which it sounds like you would possibly do ) that's 3 litters all running round in a tiny space, not to mention the mums who wouldn't have a moments peace! 
If they had large litters- 6 or 7 kittens - that could be 22-23 cats in total, now imagine all those mouths to feed, the smell and mess, and not being rude but if i came to get a kitty and saw those circumstances i would be straight out of there :scared:


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gem16 said:


> And imagine if you bred all 3 females at the same time ( which it sounds like you would possibly do ) that's 3 litters all running round in a tiny space, not to mention the mums who wouldn't have a moments peace!
> If they had large litters- 6 or 7 kittens - that could be 22-23 cats in total, now imagine all those mouths to feed, the smell and mess, and not being rude but if i came to get a kitty and saw those circumstances i would be straight out of there :scared:


Me too :scared:

I wouldn't want to buy a kitten from someone who didn't know who was the kit's mum


----------



## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

gemini2 said:


> I've been considering purchasing a stud and arranging for a friend of mine to keep him in his apartment in a very large expensive cage. I remember the unneutered cat my family had as a child and, like I said, I'm afraid of the spraying he would do. Would a stud who's being kept by himself in a large cage with toys and a human companion in another apartment keep him from being too much trouble? I've read that a stud who's just being caged even part of the time can make loud "lonliness" noises.
> What if I were to get two or three females and keep them in my apartment, and bring them over to my friend's apartment for matings; whenever they went into estrus? I've considered the possibility of keeping my prospective stud with someone else due to the spraying issues; would he make noises, though. I've heard keeping a spayed female cat with a stud will keep him from feeling lonely. Will that keep him from making loud noises in an extremely large cage with several levels and lots of toys; hammock included?
> I've wanted to do this since I was a child; breeding cats. I don't see myself moving into a house anytime soon, but I'd LOVE to do this! I'm dying to!Will keeping a spayed female with him keep him from feeling lonely?
> It's been mentioned that if a stud doesn't have at least three females available, he'll misbehave. What if I kept three queens with me? Would three queens who are always being brought over to the male pose problems in my apartment? Once they're mated, they don't go into estrus, right?
> As far the cost, I can handle it. I love cats, and I'm intersted in breeding cats as a hobby and making some money from it. I'm checking out catteries in North America and Europe online. I'm prepared to travel abroad to make this dream I've had for the past fifteen years come true(I'm 34, now::scared. By the way, here in my country; finding a stud service isn't that easy since everyone seems to be attemting to monopolize the pedigree cat market. That's why Im considering traveling abroad to find a baby stud.


My reply may upset 1 or 2 but seeing posts like this annoys me, most reputable breeders breed for the love of their breed NOT TO TRY AND MAKE MONEY..........have you considered breeding canaries, you can keep them in cages too.


----------



## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Going by what all the breeders on this site have said before, you definitly WON'T be making any money anyway! Breeding is very expensive, and from those I have spoken to, you will be lucky to break even!


----------



## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Chez87 said:


> Going by what all the breeders on this site have said before, you definitly WON'T be making any money anyway! Breeding is very expensive, and from those I have spoken to, you will be lucky to break even!


So right Chez, i really dont think many have made their fortune from breeding cats lol.....best wishes......CHRIS.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Not saying I agree with it mind

But tellingtales on this forum posted that he is a professional breeder and makes money from it. It *is* his day job. He posted that he has no other day job and considers breeding his job and income, although he does (I think) combine breeding with cat grooming and microchipping to increase his income.

I dont really have an issue with someone who says I want to get into breeding and I want to make some money at it PROVIDING they do not cut corners on levels of care/standards and realise that a small profit could be a LONG way off while massive losses could be right around the corner.

As long as theyre willing to provide everything the cat(s) need, I have no problem with the basic thought of I would like to make some money at this. 

Its just the types that cut corners (heck thats being nice about it, as it far worse than mere corner cutting) to ensure they make a profit that I have issues with. MASSIVE issues.


----------



## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Tje i agree with you totally , but from reading the posts i dont think this person has any experience as yet , and is talking about getting perhaps 3 queens right away and a stud that could possibly be kept in a pen, i really dont think they have done any research or homework ( or maybe its a wind up ) and i would be concerned about it becoming another kitten conveyor belt. In the Ragdoll scene in the UK ive met and delt with some of the most experienced breeders out there and they all say the same thing and that is that they make very little profit out of breeding.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

raggs said:


> Tje i agree with you totally , but from reading the posts i dont think this person has any experience as yet , and is talking about getting perhaps 3 queens right away and a stud that could possibly be kept in a pen, i really dont think they have done any research or homework ( or maybe its a wind up ) and i would be concerned about it becoming another kitten conveyor belt. In the Ragdoll scene in the UK ive met and delt with some of the most experienced breeders out there and they all say the same thing and that is that they make very little profit out of breeding.


Raggs, I could not agree with you more if I tried. :thumbsup:

If this person goes ahead with these half cocked plans... well... suffice to say I hope the shelters in her area aren't overcrowded.

I am all for someone asking questions on a forum, but this person really needs to learn to walk (heck crawl) before she can run. She doesn't know the most basic things about cats, let alone breeding, and until she does know that she not even be thinking of breeding. She has demonstrated a total lack of knowledge on all angles of breeding and even on the extreme basics od cat care.

And I also agree with you about the lack of profits in the breeding game/business (call it what you will). I don't breed... and you know why? ... 'cause I am lucky enough to have been able to have a good old look through the books of a few ethical and responsible breeders. To say they don't make profits is putting it lightly. And the one time they do show a small proft, no dispresepct to your or other breeders, but you all know, if you take that profit and divide it between the amount of hours you spent getting it... well paper rounds generally pay better.

*I take my hat off to ethical breeders like yourself who put cat welfare above profit*. And I have never (and will never) shy away from saying that.


----------



## Guest (Dec 6, 2010)

raggs said:


> My reply may upset 1 or 2 but seeing posts like this annoys me, most reputable breeders breed for the love of their breed NOT TO TRY AND MAKE MONEY..........have you considered breeding canaries, you can keep them in cages too.


You cruel woman you! how could you suggest Canaries! Whatever did they do to you!

To the OP seriously, in this economic climate breeding pussies ain't the answer! infact it can be the road to hardship - all that needs to happen is that you have complications in the pregnancy - and you are stuck with massive vet bills, then IFthe kittens survive and you are stuck with them they eat up any profit you THINK you might have made! My advise to you want something small and fluffy would be to go for stuffed toys! they are easily obtainable, cheap to keep and vet bills are unheard of (I think)- infact all you'll need is a needle and thread for when summat falls off!  all the very best!
lots of love
DT


----------



## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

gemini2 said:


> I've been considering purchasing a stud and arranging for a friend of mine to keep him in his apartment in a very large expensive cage. I remember the unneutered cat my family had as a child and, like I said, I'm afraid of the spraying he would do. Would a stud who's being kept by himself in a large cage with toys and a human companion in another apartment keep him from being too much trouble? I've read that a stud who's just being caged even part of the time can make loud "lonliness" noises.
> What if I were to get two or three females and keep them in my apartment, and bring them over to my friend's apartment for matings; whenever they went into estrus? I've considered the possibility of keeping my prospective stud with someone else due to the spraying issues; would he make noises, though. I've heard keeping a spayed female cat with a stud will keep him from feeling lonely. Will that keep him from making loud noises in an extremely large cage with several levels and lots of toys; hammock included?
> I've wanted to do this since I was a child; breeding cats. I don't see myself moving into a house anytime soon, but I'd LOVE to do this! I'm dying to!Will keeping a spayed female with him keep him from feeling lonely?
> It's been mentioned that if a stud doesn't have at least three females available, he'll misbehave. What if I kept three queens with me? Would three queens who are always being brought over to the male pose problems in my apartment? Once they're mated, they don't go into estrus, right?
> As far the cost, I can handle it. I love cats, and I'm intersted in breeding cats as a hobby and making some money from it. I'm checking out catteries in North America and Europe online. I'm prepared to travel abroad to make this dream I've had for the past fifteen years come true(I'm 34, now::scared. By the way, here in my country; finding a stud service isn't that easy since everyone seems to be attemting to monopolize the pedigree cat market. That's why Im considering traveling abroad to find a baby stud.


I have to say i think you're crazy!!! :crazy:

WHY do you feel the need to move so quickly? You don't NEED a stud cat to be a breeder!! I actually feel angry that you would even consider keeping an animal caged just to 'make money'. Selfish or what!!

How do you think you would fit 3 females into your tiny flat? Once they have kittens you will be overun, it will stink and you will be shocked at how much money you need to SPEND.

You mention you are 34 so a grown woman. Cat breeders are dedicated individuals who have a serious love for cats and put their welfare at the top of their minds. It is not easy in any way and can cause lots of stress and heartache.

"monopolise the pedigree cat market", think that says it all really. Disgusting.

That is all.


----------



## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> You cruel woman you! how could you suggest Canaries! Whatever did they do to you!
> 
> To the OP seriously, in this economic climate breeding pussies ain't the answer! infact it can be the road to hardship - all that needs to happen is that you have complications in the pregnancy - and you are stuck with massive vet bills, then IFthe kittens survive and you are stuck with them they eat up any profit you THINK you might have made! My advise to you want something small and fluffy would be to go for stuffed toys! they are easily obtainable, cheap to keep and vet bills are unheard of (I think)- infact all you'll need is a needle and thread for when summat falls off!  all the very best!
> lots of love
> DT


 DT. The reason i suggested Canaries is because they are usually kept in a cage.....oh and one more small matter ....LMAO here.....i'm all male ...hahahahaha


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

gemini2 said:


> I have never bred animals before, but I have always loved cats. I have recently been entertaining the thought of purchasing a breeding pair of persians. I am aware of the fact that it will cost a good sum of money to do this, yet I believe I'm prepared to make the investment.
> My concerns, though, are the following: 1) I live in a one bedroom apartment - YUP TOO SMALL
> 
> 2)I am concerned about the spraying the unneutered male would do - YUP WILL STINK
> ...


I wouldn't bother unless you have lots of savings, one for the kittens and 2 to re-do your 1 bedroom apartment.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> Not saying I agree with it mind…
> 
> But tellingtales on this forum posted that he is a professional breeder and makes money from it. It *is* his day job. He posted that he has no other day job and considers breeding his job and income, although he does (I think) combine breeding with cat grooming and microchipping to increase his income.
> 
> ...


I agree with the above,

I do make a living from Feline services, one of these services is Breeding,along with running a boarding cattery,grooming salon,Mobile microchipping service.

I consider myself to be very fortunate that I can make money from this, however I have considerably invested to do so,and Tje is right cutting corners is not the answer.

I do not consider breeding my job, however my job is "Tellingtails" my business is feline services, and breeding makes up a percentage of my income.However if I did not provide all my other services, I would need a day job,as breeding would not provide a large enough profit for my family, morgage,bills etc,

However I do not do this for the money, I had a very succesful restaurant before this and made way more money, I do this because I geniunely love Cats/ Pets, and I love dealing with people, going to work when I had the restaurant felt like a chore, now going to work is great,relaxing,rewarding,fun and no two days are the same.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

tellingtails said:


> I agree with the above,
> 
> I do make a living from Feline services, one of these services is Breeding,along with running a boarding cattery,grooming salon,Mobile microchipping service.
> 
> ...


how do you make money from breeding? ive never made any and am down in the thousands after costs, cant see how its done if done properly :confused1:


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> how do you make money from breeding? ive never made any and am down in the thousands after costs, cant see how its done if done properly :confused1:


I do it properly, I have professional healthcare for all my cats,and any cat in my care I pay extra for it to cover me for things like Microchipping,grooming,transporting other peoples Pets.

I have Public Liability insurance.

My cats all have regular health checks, I have enough queens so I dont have to breed them more than once in a year.

I do not use cheap foods, all my Cats and Kittens leave fully vaccinated, wormed,frontlined.Gccf registered.

I advertise with in local Media.

I equally do not understand how you can not make a profit.

When I started this I went around every vet in my area, and had a meeting with several to negotiate the costs of my vaccines, I turned up at these meeting's prepared with how much vaccinations approx cost trade price, I get vaccines at a fraction what the public do.

Same for worming and Frontline, in return I recommend the Vet to all my clients and customers, whether its Grooming,Microchipping or Boarding, in addition to this All my Cats annual boosters are Gauranteed to this Vet at full retail price, also they are Gauranteed anywork if any of my Cats or any cats in my Cattery (in my care during boarding) are ill.

I also registered for Vat, so I could purchase food from a Pet wholesaler,along with many other products, you would be surprised how cheap things are at wholesale prior to the retailer adding on their profit.

Are you still paying full price for your vaccinations,frontline,worming?

Are you paying retail prices for your food?

The secret to making a profit is to reduce these costs without reducing the quality.
Speak to your Vet if he/she wont reduce the costs speak to another.Most Professionals will acknowledge the difference between a Pet owner and a Breeder and give you some form of discount for your loyal business throughout the year.
I give breeder discounts on Microchipping of full litters for example, as I acknowledge the importance of keeping costs down.
Vets are the same they are a business at the end of the day, next time you there try your luck.:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I equally do not understand how you can not make a profit.


that was a joke TT right? You don't actually really wonder (can't understand) why/how many breeders don't make a profit?

tongue in cheek.... right?:thumbup:


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> that was a joke TT right? You don't actually really wonder (can't understand) why/how many breeders don't make a profit?
> 
> tongue in cheek.... right?:thumbup:


Yes a bit of tongue and cheek, sorry I am bad :lol::lol:

I fully understand the pitfalls of breeding and that many breeders fight a losing battle to keep costs from spiralling.


----------



## Guest (Dec 7, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> My cats all have regular health checks, I have enough queens so I dont have to breed them more than once in a year.


Can I nominate you for breeder of the year please?

How many queens do you have? Because some breeders have a fair few queens and let them have more than 1 litter a year and think its okay.

Personaly I see that as stupid because its not in the cats best interest to keep pumping out kittens


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

TT, I'm kind of taken aback, I have to admit. I have an Excel spreadsheet on my pc desktop showing a breakdown of our monthly cat expenditure for November. It was an only slightly above average/normal month on spending but does not contain any huge, one off expenses such as a c-section for a queen so, at any given time in any month, that total figure for November could go skywards.

Though not my strongpoint, the maths are simple; times the figure for the month of November x 12, add the income from kitten sales (of an approximate number and this, for me, is reasonably easy enough to roughly anticipate) which gives you my profit.... uh-oh... quite large loss actually 

I think its quite rude to ask people about their finances, how much they spend on this, that or the other so I'm obviously not going to ask you that  All I'd say I think my vet charges average prices and I receive a 10% discount. I feed my cats an averagely priced diet; I use an averagely priced litter - none of which I buy at trade/discount prices. I'd genuinely like to understand where I'm going wrong - not that I ever expected to make a profit, its my hobby.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Can I nominate you for breeder of the year please?
> 
> How many queens do you have? Because some breeders have a fair few queens and let them have more than 1 litter a year and think its okay.
> 
> Personaly I see that as stupid because its not in the cats best interest to keep pumping out kittens


Breeder of the year, you can nominate someone that does this for awards or recognition but I do this because I love it, and I get all the reward I need when I see perfect kittens with perfect health from happy Cats.

I have Seven Queens and Three of my own Studs, all have had blood tests and are totally clear and in good health, I do not do outside stud work, as I personally think the risk is to high to my Queens and Studs, and vastly out weighs any potential earnings from such an endeavour.

I have in my ten years of breeding only once have I let a queen be preganant twice in a year at a Vets recommendation for health reasons as she was climbing the wall with desire so to speak. this was due to an early delivery in January so by the time she had recovered she went through the whole summer in call, and continued right into november.This was a rare occurance and one I have not had to repeat.

I understand some breeders breed their queen more frequently, but my personal decision is I dont feel I need to, I am happy with the frequency of my litters and the amount of quality kittens I am producing.:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

To be very honest , i hope i can carry on breeding one or perhaps two litters of kittens a year and if im out of pocket after that , you know what i dont care, i do this because of my love for my chosen breed, ALL my kittens get the best possible treatment i can give them and like most other good breeders the kittens are with me until 14 weeks of age, they go fully vacinated, GCCF registered, wormed and flea treated, kitten insurance plus a bag full of goodies for the kittens and there new owners, seeing the happiness the kittens give there new owners is enough reward i think. those who love to breed there cats have no doubt invested a lot of hard earned cash into their hobby and making a profit is prob the last thing on there mind ( or should be ). If this is a genuine post then they are in for a HUGE shock, best wishes......Chris


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Eeee, I've given the wrong impression now. I have never kept track of monthly spends on the cats because it's my hobby; they're also my pets and I love them. Unfortunately, my OH was looking over my shoulder a few months back at the pc monitor which showed a post (a different forum) about the recent issues some breeders have been having with the 'tax man'. That was enough to prompt my OH to insist we keep all receipts and keep track of track what we spend 

TT, I clearly understand that breeding a just a part of your business and that you're VAT registered, etc. I didn't mean to pry or be rude... it's great that you have a career/business that you obviously love.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> TT, I'm kind of taken aback, I have to admit. I have an Excel spreadsheet on my pc desktop showing a breakdown of our monthly cat expenditure for November. It was an only slightly above average/normal month on spending but does not contain any huge, one off expenses such as a c-section for a queen so, at any given time in any month, that total figure for November could go skywards.
> 
> Though not my strongpoint, the maths are simple; times the figure for the month of November x 12, add the income from kitten sales (of an approximate number and this, for me, is reasonably easy enough to roughly anticipate) which gives you my profit.... uh-oh... quite large loss actually
> 
> I think its quite rude to ask people about their finances, how much they spend on this, that or the other so I'm obviously not going to ask you that  All I'd say I think my vet charges average prices and I receive a 10% discount. I feed my cats an averagely priced diet; I use an averagely priced litter - none of which I buy at trade/discount prices. I'd genuinely like to understand where I'm going wrong - not that I ever expected to make a profit, its my hobby.


I would not have been happy with a measly 10% from my Vet, the costs of vaccines is extremely low no matter what brand your vet uses.

I get my vaccines at £10 each per kitten( my cats boosters I pay full retail price its just the kittens I get a reduction on) and believe me my vet still makes a good profit,it only costs me £3 to Microchip one of my Kittens, secondly I buy all my food wholesale price,as I do things like frontline,worming,shampoo, I also recover some of my costs back via my accountant as tax deductable because I run a licensed boarding cattery,grooming parlour etc I can claim a % of the costs as business expenditure back,like food for boarders (in my accountants words "sometimes you have very greedy boarders" if you get what I mean) other expenses like laundry costs for bedding, professional veterinary cover as I have to have it, to cover animals in my care.

I understand not everyone is in my position, but I looked into this for 3 years before I decided to do this as a profession, and I have everything in place to ensure every aspect of my business,makes a healthy profit.I run this like I used to run my Restaurant everything is broken down, every expenditure is negotiated to get the best price, if I am not happy I would rather go and take my business elsewhere, business is business, whether you run a shop,a garage or a cattery.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> I equally do not understand how you can not make a profit.


I think the big difference here, TT, is that you breed Bengals which still command high prices. My main breed is Asians, I am lucky if I get £250 for an Asian kitten, VERY lucky in fact, it's common for me to be selling them at 5 months at £100, and then it is very easy to see that I make a significant loss. Plus there is next to no demand for stud services for Asians so I can't even claw any money back that way.

Liz


----------



## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

I think Lizward has a valid point there


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

lizward said:


> I think the big difference here, TT, is that you breed Bengals which still command high prices. My main breed is Asians, I am lucky if I get £250 for an Asian kitten, VERY lucky in fact, it's common for me to be selling them at 5 months at £100, and then it is very easy to see that I make a significant loss. Plus there is next to no demand for stud services for Asians so I can't even claw any money back that way.
> 
> Liz


I have seen Asians for sale at £400 -£450, I have also seen Bengals selling as low as £150.

Some People will pay what they percieve is good value(thats not a dig at anyone)
Some People will travel them extra miles to purchase the right kitten for their family.

If you are charging more, than a competitor which is often quite the case when breeding you are always going to have someone selling them less, you need to give someone a reason to pay that little bit more.

That can be achieved several ways reputation, professionalism, customer service( I understand from a previous discussion not everyone agrees with calling them or thinking of them as customers), extras Microchipped, kittens packs etc.

I would never sell a kitten at a loss,if it cost you £200 to raise that kitten you would charge more than £200 for it when you sell it, thats common sense. You would not go to a shop by coat in the sale for £50.00 to make a profit then sell it on ebay for £30.00 makes no sense.


----------



## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I think Liz just meant that other people make money from their studs and she doesn't.
I believe she isn't 'moaning' or she wouldn't still be breeding, but it just passing comment that some people are making money. Some people take things too literally.


----------



## Guest (Dec 7, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I have seen Asians for sale at £400 -£450, I have also seen Bengals selling as low as £150.


I agree I have seen Bengals for £150 and ashians for £450.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Ihipped, kittens packs etc.
> 
> I would never sell a kitten at a loss,if it cost you £200 to raise that kitten you would charge more than £200 for it when you sell it, thats common sense. You would not go to a shop by coat in the sale for £50.00 to make a profit then sell it on ebay for £30.00 makes no sense.


If you think like that then you are breeding animals simply as a business I guess ...

Rather than breeding to improve your breed, a kitten to show or continue your line.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> I have seen Asians for sale at £400 -£450, I have also seen Bengals selling as low as £150.


O so have I. You will find, though, that a lot of the Asians for sale at that price are either a long way South or are from a breeder with huge show success. Oddly, the breeder I most respect, who has been in Asians for years and years and has had significant show success too, has as much difficulty selling as I do. And another very well established breeder with a very good show record ended up literally giving hers away a couple of years ago because there were no buyers even at £100. These are people who have been in the breed virtually from the beginning.



> Some People will pay what they percieve is good value(thats not a dig at anyone)
> Some People will travel them extra miles to purchase the right kitten for their family.


That is true. Wish some of them would come to me.



> If you are charging more, than a competitor which is often quite the case when breeding you are always going to have someone selling them less, you need to give someone a reason to pay that little bit more. That can be achieved several ways reputation, professionalism, customer service( I understand from a previous discussion not everyone agrees with calling them or thinking of them as customers), extras Microchipped, kittens packs etc.


Microchipping, and all vaccinations including FeLV and Chlamydia, I do. I sell violins for a living, fortunately we do rather better with those than with kittens!



> I would never sell a kitten at a loss,if it cost you £200 to raise that kitten you would charge more than £200 for it when you sell it, thats common sense. You would not go to a shop by coat in the sale for £50.00 to make a profit then sell it on ebay for £30.00 makes no sense.


Not in business terms, no, but even in normal retail you sometimes get to the stage where you need to do a quick "liquidation" of stock. We used to sell flutes, for example, we still have several that we can't sell even for what they cost us, some have been in stock for about four years. Since I can't play more than one flute at a time, the loss on the others at the moment is total. At some point I guess we will just liquidate them on ebay, at the moment that goes against the grain because if they were a different brand name they would be selling easily for double the price even though the other brand is made in Indonesia and ours are made in the US. But flutes don't have to be fed and vaccinated, and they don't get stressed out because there are too many of them in the house. Cats do. If I kept every cat I ever bred, unless I could sell it for a profit, I would have hundreds of cats by now.

Liz


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> If you think like that then you are breeding animals simply as a business I guess ...
> 
> Rather than breeding to improve your breed, a kitten to show or continue your line.


I disagree I think you can achieve both, I think Kitten and Cat welfare is of upmost importance.

I strive to produce Perfection both in breed type and temperament but also in Health.

I do not see any reason why not to offer good customer service in return, and as for making a profit, just because one breeder makes a profit and another loses money does not mean one is better than another.

A breeder should be given merits for the kittens they produce not how much or how little they make.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> A breeder should be given merits for the kittens they produce not how much or how little they make.


I think that depends on how much profit they make, or rather, how much that profit means to them 

Just my thoughts


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I think that depends on how much profit they make, or rather, how much that profit means to them
> 
> Just my thoughts


What a load of rubbish, what difference does it make if some one makes £50.00 profit or 5 pence.

As for what it means to them, most people go to work to earn a living, they want to earn the best living they can for them and their family, to pay the morgage, bills,school fees etc etc

Its the same for most, with hobby breeding programs making a profit is important,as if they dont they are taking money from there household income in simple terms food out of the mouths of their family.

For me my profit are my wages, this is my business,my job, so profit is as important to me as your wages are to you.

Just my thoughts. you would argue black is white etc etc


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> What a load of rubbish, what difference does it make if some one makes £50.00 profit or 5 pence.


Oh I think to some breeders it would make quite a lot of difference


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> [Originally Posted by tellingtails
> What a load of rubbish, what difference does it make if some one makes £50.00 profit or 5 pence.


QUOTE=Amethyst;2025111]Oh I think to some breeders it would make quite a lot of difference [/QUOTE]

Taken out of context think thats what I said when I mentioned it was important as if they dont it takes food out of their family's mouths


----------



## Guest (Dec 7, 2010)

I know dog breeding and cat breeding are slightly different but here's my bit to it.

My mentor has 1 litter a year and keeps 1 back every year even though she has 5 bitch's she only breeds 1 a year if that. She health tests for DNA CEA, hip score and yearly eye test. Another breeder of the same breed breeds 10 litters a year doesnt health test mother or father and now doesnt even wrok ebcause they make that much money they dont need to work. 

The big difference being that thoese 10 litters are not good quality or health tested. 

Me...I would much rather produce 1 litter a year and them all be healthy, happy and not homeless than mass produce as there is more risks that your dog..or in this case cat could end up in a rescue. 

TT you seem like a good breeder. I give you kudos to that.

Anyway, Back to the OP's post a 1 bed apartment is no place for a queen, stud and litter..nor is it okay to keep a stud locked up all the time.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Some People will pay what they percieve is good value(thats not a dig at anyone)
> Some People will travel them extra miles to purchase the right kitten for their family.


that is very true. And I don't just mean (or at all mean) quality of the kitten in terms of potential show success or howe it looks and whatnot. I want quality in the way the kitten and it's mum and it's stud are reared and live. I *will* travel. I *will* pay top dollar. But almost all that is because of I know exactly how I want any kitten of my kittens to be reared. I do have high expectations. But I am willing to pay well over the odds for that.

But of course... there is no universal defintion of "well reared" that everyone adheres to.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

If you dont show your cats then why continue to breed? :confused1:

Pardon my ignorance but i thought like in dogs the point was to try and acheive the breed standard and breed from those of your stock which are the closest to this, ie succesful showers?

Also, if you know there is not much of a demand for your breed then why continue to churn them out knowing you will struggle to home them? Doesnt seem like that is in the animals best interests to me!


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2010)

Going off topic here maybe !
But those of you are breeding, making a profit and that be any profit and have no other form of income!
Do you declare any income you recieve from your breeding activities?

Just curious!

DT


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Going off topic here maybe !
> But those of you are breeding, making a profit and that be any profit and have no other form of income!
> Do you declare any income you recieve from your breeding activities?
> 
> ...


wouldnt that eat into profits DT?


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2010)

Starlight and DT...This springs to mind.









I dont want to get involved again but good points raised both of you.


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2010)

Starlite said:


> wouldnt that eat into profits DT?


seems to have gone very quiet on here! weren't summat I said were it:scared::scared:


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> seems to have gone very quiet on here! weren't summat I said were it:scared::scared:


threadkiller :lol:

Nice to see you back SL


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2010)

Starlite said:


> threadkiller :lol:
> 
> Nice to see you back SL


Good to be back!
:thumbup:


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Going off topic here maybe !
> But those of you are breeding, making a profit and that be any profit and have no other form of income!
> Do you declare any income you recieve from your breeding activities?
> 
> ...


I know of some breeders who do but they are big scale breeders.

I think I could make money out of it if I stopped buying the cats the treats/toys and fed them lower quality food, i could cut back on goodie packs but it's all part of the fun, although I am so broke just now I did go a tad overboard (cat buying wise) at the beginning of this year.


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> I know of some breeders who do but they are big scale breeders.
> 
> I think I could make money out of it if I stopped buying the cats the treats/toys and fed them lower quality food, i could cut back on goodie packs but it's all part of the fun, although I am so broke just now I did go a tad overboard (cat buying wise) at the beginning of this year.


I would expect the bigger breeders to declare any income - but in many cases the breeding is a hobby and often supplemented by the breeders paid work!

My question were based as those - and there has to be thousands in the UK, but none it seems on pet forums, that are on benefits that are breeding, often from the family pet and then selling for profit! I just wonder how many actually declare any income they receive from ANY type of animal dealing!

Just curious!


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

OP, any update on your possible future breeding adventures? I am sure we all very curious to hear what you've decided to do?


----------



## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

lol welcome back


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2010)

XxZoexX said:


> lol welcome back


Thank you! I've only been watching the apprentise!


----------



## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Thank you! I've only been watching the apprentise!


So was I! They are dozy twerps aren't they. "Big bens clock face is 20 diameters wide!" Errr.....?
:confused1:


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2010)

Chez87 said:


> So was I! They are dozy twerps aren't they. "Big bens clock face is 20 diameters wide!" Errr.....?
> :confused1:


Hey! he made me laff! the thames is the second largest river in london!


----------



## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

:lol: :lol: But i missed you DT


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2010)

XxZoexX said:


> :lol: :lol: But i missed you DT


What! like a hole in the head!:scared::scared:

sits back and waits for the insults!


----------



## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

But i did..i thought id had gone quiet lol


----------



## Guest (Dec 8, 2010)

XxZoexX said:


> But i did..i thought id had gone quiet lol


well it will be very quite in a few days! I am going on strike! been pestering em for a payrise but its falling on deaf ears!


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

TT, only just realised this thread was reopened so I'm a bit behind  Thanks for your reply.

I think we're trying to compare chalk and cheese here because you run a business and I don't. I source everything I buy for the cats at the best price possible; that's just good sense for any 'shopping', but obviously I can't buy anything at wholesale price. I could perhaps do more to negotiate a reduced price for vaccinations (though what I pay I consider relatively competitive) but I think you need to be in a certain 'position' to be successful with that. It wouldn't wash for me to propose that I'd recommend a vet to kitten purchasers because the vast majority of people who have kittens from me wouldn't be local enough to any vet I might use, plus I don't breed the number of kittens that might make my proposition attractive enough anyway. Regardless, I value the relationship I have with the vet I use and don't want to lose that - and in part that's why I will never be much cop at business! Perfect scenario though, to have an excellent vet who also only charges you a little above trade price for vaccines 

So - chalk and cheese really.. it's impossible for the hobby breeder to source what they buy for their cats at wholesale prices, given that the biggest day to day expenses are probably food and litter.

I think the only thing I could disagree with you on is your comment below:

"Its the same for most, with hobby breeding programs making a profit is important,as if they dont they are taking money from there household income in simple terms food out of the mouths of their family".

The breeders I know (a lot of them as I've been breeding/showing for almost three decades) don't focus on trying to make a profit. It's a hobby they love and it becomes, for many, a way of life - going to cats shows, socialising with breeder/friends, enjoying (and spending money on!) their cats.. they view it as a hobby which costs them money just as with any other hobby. In fact quite the opposite (to making a profit) seems to be true - I've seen many a good breeder have to give up, or cut back drastically, when things become financially unsustainable.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> I think the only thing I could disagree with you on is your comment below:
> 
> "Its the same for most, with hobby breeding programs making a profit is important,as if they dont they are taking money from there household income in simple terms food out of the mouths of their family".
> 
> The breeders I know (a lot of them as I've been breeding/showing for almost three decades) don't focus on trying to make a profit. It's a hobby they love and it becomes, for many, a way of life - going to cats shows, socialising with breeder/friends, enjoying (and spending money on!) their cats.. they view it as a hobby which costs them money just as with any other hobby. In fact quite the opposite (to making a profit) seems to be true - I've seen many a good breeder have to give up, or cut back drastically, when things become financially unsustainable.


That was my point askinner, just never worded it correctly, most hobby breeders its important to make a profit of some discription or at least break even,as if they dont it takes money out of their own personal finances, there family budget.

And it becomes a financial drain and they end up turning their back on their beloved hobby, I have a few friends that have had to give up,due to not being able to break even, but alot of that depends on there personal circumstances, I have another friend who shows and breeds and it costs her approx £5000 a year("down" not the cost of food etc),however her and her husband are both Doctors and extremely wealthy,so she does not care how much it costs it is her hobby what she does to relax etc.

I didnt mean it was important in the sense they want to make money, more it was important for them to continue with their hobby,without it becoming a financial burden.

Hope that makes more sense:thumbup:


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

It does make sense and I had a feeling you might have been talking 'just trying to cover their costs' rather than 'profit'. I've heard many a breeder/friend say "I'm not trying to make money, this is my hobby and all hobbies cost money". Usually that's said by the wife, volume turned up for the benefit of the husband, in her vain efforts to stop hubby complaining!

I think what a lot of people don't realise when they come into cat breeding, is that when things go wrong (often through no fault of their own other than perhaps a little naivety) for people of average means then the expense can be crippling - for example, an outbreak of disease which requires repeated testing of all their cats (and no breeding activity whilst this is going on) can run into thousands of pounds. Some will simply give up breeding... some will not continue but not address the problems they have because of the huge amount of time and money they invested at the outset. I think that's why we see so many 'dodgy' and unethical breeders but that's another story.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> I think that's why we see so many 'dodgy' and unethical breeders but that's another story.


It is indeed:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I do not see much difference really between the keeping a stud cat in a cage and the size of some breeders pens. They tend to breed just OK sort of cats as a commercial venture, neither furthering the breed, nor helping the rescue situation, they are "breeding for health", yet are not scanning their cats for heart diseases, nor carrying out any other breed specific health tests. They have outside pens, housing numerous cats in an area not much bigger than the floor area of a one bedroom flat. I do feel sorry for so many cats at the hands of breeders who appear to be impervious as to their cats' basic needs and worse still feel they are doing a good job.
So although the OP is being decried for her venture, is she any worse than so many breeders who claim to be oh so "professional and caring"? Would the quality of her cats' lives be any less?

The OPs quality of life would stink, both metaphorically and literally but at least her queens could run from one end of the flat to the other which is more than some breeder's cats can do in their tiny little outdoor runs. 
Of course the OP needs to reassess her plans and it is of course totally ridiculous for her to even contemplate such a scheme as her quality of life would descend so far into the abyss.
Unless the OP wants to be a smelly bag lady covered with cat hair (Persians are long haired, hairy cats) and probably smelling of cat, with a one bed flat that she cannot let anyone enter, because it is so smelly, hairy or is ripped to shreds, who cannot sleep at night for queens on heat yowling or cats peeing on her bed, whose neighbours aren't talking to her because they are fed up of the smell and noise, then I think she should give breeding cats a miss until she has larger accommodation.
Of course she could spend her life cleaning up after the cats, with mop and vacuum in one hand and some odour beater solution in the other hand forever, if she wants to.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> I do feel sorry for so many cats at the hands of breeders who appear to be impervious as to their cats' basic needs


Hi Lauren could you clarify what you feel is a cats basic needs.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think we all know a cats basic needs and of course I am aware of the laws regarding pens and accommodation for breeding cats, boarding cats, and cats kept in scientific institutions and their "basic needs", but it is hardly good enough for what the majority of cat owners would think is adequate for a cat to be truly happy.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I cant really disagree with anything that you say, Lauren. Not that I'm seeking to, just that it's sad that I can't. I've no wish to spark another war here but there will always be differing opinions; you just can't get away from that.

I'd have to hold my hand up and say that, many years ago, I tended to be one of those breeders who was a bit impervious to the sort of life my cats, for the most part, lived. I'd followed the example of breeders' homes (in terms of how they kept their cats) I'd visited when I set out. To be a bit kind to myself, I'd have to say that I did it because I thought it was the right and okay way to do things, not because of convenience. That meant mostly keeping my cats in rather small pens at times when they weren't indoors with kittens. Without geting too long winded about it, it was all very regimented, I guess is the only way I could describe it. Looking back on it, makes me feel very uncomfortable... to think that I kept the cats in this way because, just to give a few examples, I was showing the cats and their coats looked lots better when they were kept outside, or that I had too many queens to allow some or all the 'luxury'(?!) of living indoors with us all the time. In a nutshell, the hobby became partly an obsession (though I'd add at no time have I ever owned more than 9 breeding cats) in the pursuit of 'success'; part obsession about the cats' health - not wanting to mix too many cats together yet not having the available space to achieve that other than them being kept in outdoor pens.

My priorities have changed slowly but also drastically over the years, in part because I had never really been comfortable with keeping the cats in that way, and partly because of some (unrelated) life changing events which I never thought I'd wind up being thankful for lol. For a number of years now I've kept no more than three or four girls, 80% of the time they're to be found lounging around the house somewhere, I show infrequently, and (horror or horrors if you mention it to some breeders) my girls come outside into the garden with us (always with two pairs of eye for supvervision, mind!). I'm so much happier and relaxed with the way things are now. i still work every bit as hard to try and improve my breed and raise happy, healthy, well socialised kittens. It took a long while to dawn, unfortunately, that I could do that without "collecting" cats and "keeping them in little prisons", as one visitor haplessly remarked to me some years ago


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> That meant mostly keeping my cats in rather small pens at times when they weren't indoors with kittens. Without geting too long winded about it, it was all very regimented, I guess is the only way I could describe it. Looking back on it, makes me feel very uncomfortable... [.......]It took a long while to dawn, unfortunately, that I could do that without "collecting" cats and "keeping them in little prisons", as one visitor haplessly remarked to me some years ago


stone me...... I can't recall ever reading a more open and honest post in this forum. I applaud you for being so refreshingly honest and forthright.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Thank you, Tje  Though I'm not particularly proud of a lot of it. I like to think that the way I kept my cats would have evolved anyway to where I am now, *without* it kind having having been foisted upon me in stages... a complicated tale of the rug being pulled from under my feet (twice), having to give up for a while and then coming back to it with a fresh pair of eyes and, thankfully, a much more balanced perspective on life. And a partner who adores the cats and kittens more than I do also helps!

I think there are a lot more breeders nowadays who do just keep a few girls and aren't particularly interested in showing - they might wonder what the heck I'm on about  But there are still many breeders, often the big name, well known types, who are (or choose to be) so blinkered to their cats' existences. If they can cram another cat run into their garden then they will; if the downstairs loo is big enough to fit a queen and her kittens into - because the bedrooms and lounge are already occupied - then they will... and so on. I see this all too frequently and all in the pursuit of show success and acclaim.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> If they can cram another cat run into their garden then they will; if the downstairs loo is big enough to fit a queen and her kittens into - because the bedrooms and lounge are already occupied - then they will... and so on. I see this all too frequently and all in the pursuit of show success and acclaim.


Or of course just money.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> Or of course just money.


Yes, absolutely, Lauren. I suppose I focus more on some of those breeders who do show a lot and for whom winning and owning titled cats means everything.. that's just because these are the sort of people I'm aware of as they're the ones I 'grew up' with, if you see what I mean. But yes, equally there are those with cats stuffed in every nook and cranny who never show and are simply trying to make a packet. Not that the two types are necessarily mutually exclusive


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Obviously I sit on the other side of the fence, all my cats have outdoor accomadation, I also have a boarding facilty and look after peoples cats whilst they are holiday,in hospital etc.

I see basic cats needs slightly different than most. I also have with my experience seen good owners, bad owners, good breeders,bad breeders. And through my experience I have learned to judge people for their merits rather than look at the accomadation aspect of their breeding.

Obviously if I turned up and they were in a small cage,no toys etc thats slightly different than turning up and having purposely made housing.

I dont think it is possible to judge a breeder until you talk to them properly,or judge a cats welfare until you know the facts.

How many cats out there look like this (see pics) unbeliveably over weight, due to owners or breeders, working all day walking in the house the cat Meows it gets food because bowls empty, it gets a stroke and then spends the rest of the night curled up on the owners lap, owner goes to bed cat is there,owner then wakes up in morning,cat meows gets more food because bowl is empty,owner leaves and goes to work process repeats.

But the cat is happy because its indoors, is this good cat/kitten welfare is it in the cats/kittens best interest to have a life like this,but it lives in a house,so its all good.

But you have the other side, Me who,s cats are outside, yes they do not have a double bed to lay on, but they have their own bed,clean bedding daily, they have scratch posts, toys interaction through play and grooming etc, exercise programs, an owner who monitors their weight,their diet, their nutrition,their conditioning i.e worming, de-flea them,provides professional health care for them,runs to a vet the minute their temp rises or drops, they have a scratch or sniffle.Has a birthing suite rather than a box in the corner of the bedroom, And sets the alarm in the middle of the night just to go and check all cats are ok during the middle of the night, and every hour when a birthing queen is due.

Now not all Pet owners and breeders are this unaware of their cats and kittens health, and I also understand not everyone goes to the lengths I do, but surely they should be given the benefit of the doubt, rather than taking the view that there cats have an inferior life due to being outdoors as that is not always the case.:thumbup:

I personally believe there is far more to a kitten/cats basic needs than giving it a spacious warm home, kitten/cat welfare is alot more complex, than mere accomadation.

Judge breeders upon their own individual merits, rather than stereo type:thumbup:


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

TT, I'm not sure what the relevance is of posting half a dozen photos of terribly overweight cats.

I honestly don't stereotype breeders and, in most instances, I would never judge until I'd seen for myself. But I have seen myself in SO many cases. I hate to seem to be constantly saying "I've been doing this for decades" but, I have, it's just a simple fact. In that time I've been to countless breeders' homes to see studs, take a queen to stud, look at kittens, just visit because I was invited.. all those things for myself and countless more times when I've accompanied a breeder/friend for all the same reasons.

But I can only really speak about my own cats. I provide for their health and welfare in exactly the same way as you do; our ethics sound quite similar. Possibly the only difference is that for the most part my cats are not penned, they live indoors with us and they have a lot of supervised, outdoor access with us. In effect, I try to provide them with a near 'normal' carefully, well cared for pet cat's existence. Though the small amount of outdoor accommodation they have is, by relative standards to a lot of breeders, very large indeed. Perhaps the botoom line and only question about this debate is - do I think they're happier when in this outdoor accommodation or when they're indoors with us? Without a shadow of doubt - when they're indoors which is most of the time. Trust me, I have some die-hard cat breeder friends whose cats spend most of their time in outdoor pens and even they acknowledge that my unpenned cats live a better life than their own.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> Without a shadow of doubt - when they're indoors which is most of the time. Trust me, I have some die-hard cat breeder friends whose cats spend most of their time in outdoor pens and even they acknowledge that my unpenned cats live a better life than their own.


I disagree my cats are the opposite they come indoors and raise their kittens indoors around our home.

I believe in indoor home raised kittens, raised around the home not confined to a single room, I think it makes more sociable stable kittens with more confident personalities.

However my queens miss the outdoor pens,they stare out the window and really look depressed, when they are eventually weaned away from their kittens and returned outside, they look so happy to be back out there.

And I am not disputing your cats probably do have an extremely rich life, but again its down to the individuals ethics on kitten /cat welfare/breeding and also down to the individual cats personality some cats hate the indoors,and constantly try to get out,others hate the outside,some hate the sun,some sunbathe all day long. What is right for your cats might not be right for another, everyones circumstances are different, what if an individuals work hours are different to yours and they are out most of the day, how would that effect the cats would they be lonely,bored, lack interaction.

I still stand by what I say breeding ethics and kitten/cat welfare,what makes a breeder good or bad comes down to them as individuals than it does to whether their cats are kept indoors or outdoors.

You can get good indoor breeders,bad indoor breeders,good outdoor breeders,bad outdoor breeders.

A good indoor breeder does not mean they are better than a good outdoor breeder or that their cats have anymore or any less of an enriched life, they have to be judged on their own merits.

The relavance to the over weight cat pics is to make the point that just because someone keeps their cats indoors does not mean it is good for them Kitten/Cat welfare is more than getting accomadation right, other aspects have to be taken into account, diet, exercise etc all account for the overall cats quality of life.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> The relavance to the over weight cat pics is to make the point that just because someone keeps their cats indoors does not mean it is good for them Kitten/Cat welfare is more than getting accomadation right, other aspects have to be taken into account, diet, exercise etc all account for the overall cats quality of life.


Yes of course other aspects have to be taken into consideration, that goes without saying, but that doesn't mean that accommodation, whether it be in the home or out in the garden is not an issue. Accommodation is one of the major issues. Cats don't just need heat and light and draught free & damp free accommodations, they need socialization, lots of attention, human interaction, being part of a family … and that means accommodation *in* the family home (unless the family too live in the outdoor cat enclosures).

Yes what some breeders offer in way of outdoor accommodation (like you have) is far superior to what some breeders offer in way of indoor accommodation (cages stacked on top of each other in a bedroom). But I want the best of both worlds when I buy a kitten, I want it to be home reared inside the home, but in a home that isn't overcrowded with cats. I also want the queen and stud any kitten of mine comes from, to be kept to my standards.



tellingtails said:


> I still stand by what I say breeding ethics and kitten/cat welfare,what makes a breeder good or bad comes down to them as individuals than it does to whether their cats are kept indoors or outdoors.


And a huge part of those breeding ethics and cat/kitten welfare is … do they have the run of a clean warm comfortable and non crowded home in the heart of the family, being a part of daily life or do they grow up in different degrees of seclusion in a garden enclosure.

Comparing apples with apples and assuming for discussions sake that all other aspects of kitten and cat rearing are the exact same, what is best 
a) a good home raised cat giving birth to good home raised kittens in a non-crowded, clean, comfortable home environment, surrounded by the family and all their trappings 
or
-b) a good example of an outdoor cat who lives in a garden enclosure, albeit a good garden enclosure, gives birth in that garden enclosure and the kittens spend part or all of their first 12 weeks in that garden enclosure

B wins hands down for me every time.

Sure vet care/food/play time/quality time/one on one time/cat trees/baskets/worm cures and flea treatments are all identical between A & B … the outdoor living cats, and the kittens raised outdoors simply can't possibly have anywhere near the same level of socialization and creature comforts that their indoor counterparts have. If they did, then the cat enclosures in the garden would be called kitchens, bathrooms, bedrooms and living rooms and the whole family would live in them and the house would become redundant.



tellingtails said:


> I disagree my cats are the opposite they come indoors and raise their kittens indoors around our home.


I thought you had a maternity thingy in your garden where the queens gave birth and they only came indoors at 4 or 5 weeks of age? Or am I getting you muddled with someone else. My apologies in advance if I am.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

TT can I ask you a question or two?

I picked up on you saying you had 8 queens, do they all have 1 litter a year? I'm just wondering how you can possibly devote enough attention the each kitten to try and instill a good temperament in them?

Having helped my girl raise 4 kittens this year, and spent almost 24/7 with them I can see why 'time' is the biggest thing needed when socialising kittens. 

Plus also you breed Bengals, and it was established ages ago in another thread that the Bengal breed need even more socialisation from an early age to try to achieve good temperaments ... so how do you manage to do that with so many litters?

Also you say they are bred indoors and raised indoors. So what is your new outdoor building going to used for exactly? and could you post a picture of the inside of it?

I'm genuinely interested here.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> I thought you had a maternity thingy in your garden where the queens gave birth and they only came indoors at 4 or 5 weeks of age? Or am I getting you muddled with someone else. My apologies in advance if I am.


No you are right I do have a separate maternity wing were the Mum can be undisturbed for the first 3 weeks.

When I say undisturbed I do not mean, undisturbed as her or the kittens have no interaction far from it, I mean free from visitors coming to my house, this is more precautionary incase a vistor brings an unsuspecting virus or infection into my home.They are monitored and socialised just as kittens are in any breeders home, just I choose to take extra precautions with who handles them and see's them in the first 2-3 weeks when they are at their most vunerable.

In answer to Aurelia question I have 8 queens 3 males so I can choose which to have lined and by whom etc that year, I do not breed all the females each year, I personally prefer to produce quality rather than quantity, and choose to stagger pregnancy between the females instead of feeling pressured like some breeders I have met to breed my females year in year out, I have enough females to breed them only once a year, however I do not breed them all in one year, sometimes a female might go 18 months between pregnancy, it depends on many factors condition, timing of her calls,waiting list,time of year,to name a few, I personally dont like females giving birth in winter months and try to avoid it.

I have had this conversation before, I do not see myself primarily as a Breeder I run a Professional Feline services business that just happens to have a breeding program, my services are Feline Boarding, Feline Grooming and Mobile microchipping, I am not under any pressure nor is it my goal to make vast amounts of money from the breeding side alone, however I had researched and negotiated all aspects of the breeding side to alllow me to make a profit, that is just good business sense, not un-ethical breeding(breeding to make a profit) even if it was not profitable I would still do it as I love cats and love the breeding.And my main source of income is from my other services,not breeding.

P.s Sorry forgot to answer Aurelia other question devoting time, I also employ two full-time grooming and cattery staff, my wife is a Midwife,which comes in handy at delivery time,and we share the Microchipping commitment.So plenty of hands and plenty of time to run business and dedicate time to Cats


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> Plus also you breed Bengals, and it was established ages ago in another thread that the Bengal breed need even more socialisation from an early age to try to achieve good temperaments ... so how do you manage to do that with so many litters?


Other question from Aurelia, I do not produce loads of litters this year I produced 2 litters of bengals, 10 kittens in total.

Quality not quantity, as for socialisation as I already explained they are socialised from day one, just they are protected from infection in the early stages.

And as for the Bengal temperament it was alleged it needs more socialisation, however I disagree about the Bengal temperament and I am not willing to embark on that discussion again. I agree to disagree on that one again:thumbup:


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Fair dos TT. I don't think I could do things like you do though. 

I'm a little alarmed you don't think Bengals needs extra socialisation though. But if you don't want to discuss that it's fine 

You 'maternity wing', is that the metal shed you were constructing between your pens? Would it be possible to see a picture of the inside? I have visions of it being quite something!


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Fair dos TT. I don't think I could do things like you do though.
> 
> I'm a little alarmed you don't think Bengals needs extra socialisation though. But if you don't want to discuss that it's fine
> 
> You 'maternity wing', is that the metal shed you were constructing between your pens? Would it be possible to see a picture of the inside? I have visions of it being quite something!


No the metal shed went that was just a store it was replaced by the maternity wing here is a pic of it being constructed as soon as the snow clears I will take some pics of the finished thing inside and out:thumbup:

Ps its very spacious 12ft by 8 ft, and is used as a nursery for the female after intial birth and everything is a ok Normally from about day three to day 21. Then they come back in doors.It has full heating, Only electric cant get Gas central heating out there or I would


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

All litters are born in my home, in my birthing box, it has heated tiled floors,fully washable and gives the female security for her kittens and the ability to stretch her legs undisturbed between feeds, and we can open the bottom doors so she can explore the rest of the house and return:thumbup:


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> All litters are born in my home, in my birthing box, it has heated tiled floors,fully washable and gives the female security for her kittens and the ability to stretch her legs undisturbed between feeds, and we can open the bottom doors so she can explore the rest of the house and return:thumbup:


Never thought of using a rabbit hutch! Not sure I would though


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Never thought of using a rabbit hutch! Not sure I would though


I found it better to convert this to my queens needs using under tiled heating like you do your kitchen floor, it makes it more accessable if there is a complication,the queen gives birth at a great hieght to allow you to help comfortably,if there is a problem it also keeps the kittens safer from drafts and infections and can be properly sanatised, rather than a conventional homemade birthing box, as I said i take the safety of my queen and kittens very seriously.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I found it better to convert this to my queens needs using under tiled heating like you do your kitchen floor, it makes it more accessable if there is a complication, it also keeps the kittens safer from drafts and infections and can be properly sanatised, rather than a conventional homemade birthing box, as I said i take the safety of my queen and kittens very seriously.


TT.... a question that has nothing to do with this post, so sorry for the tangent.... with your mums & kittens, do you ever use heating in the summer months (July or August). I do (of course only on cold or damp days, not when it's 25 degrees and wall to wall sunshine) but when I mentioned this to a breeder recently... well she practically laughed in my face. So just wondering if you ever turn the heating on in the summer.


----------



## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> All litters are born in my home, in my birthing box, it has heated tiled floors,fully washable and gives the female security for her kittens and the ability to stretch her legs undisturbed between feeds, and we can open the bottom doors so she can explore the rest of the house and return:thumbup:


I had just like that for my ferrets. I sell made a slate roof for it so it kept heat in better.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Yes I can see that ... if you raise a lot of kittens at the same time. I don't see a need for me to do that though, as I keep a very close eye on mine, so they are perfectly safe  I'd much rather kitten proof a room, and have a stair gate up to prevent a wandering queen.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> TT.... a question that has nothing to do with this post, so sorry for the tangent.... with your mums & kittens, do you ever use heating in the summer months (July or August). I do (of course only on cold or damp days, not when it's 25 degrees and wall to wall sunshine) but when I mentioned this to a breeder recently... well she practically laughed in my face. So just wondering if you ever turn the heating on in the summer.


All my accomadation has two types of heating, firstly heated tiled floors in accomadation and runs, and secondly individual wall mounted electric radiators, the radiators are connected to a thermosat controller and engages the minute the temp drops below a pre-set temp and also maintains a pre-set temp these were fitted by a company.

The under tiled heating I fitted myself and is manually controlled and remains on in the summer,mainly in the morning and the evenings.I feel keeping the tiled heating on during the summer mornings and evenings it prevents condensation and damp, but thats just my personal opinion not sure if it does, it just seems to to me.

In addition to this the cattery's are double lined with a 32mm insulation gap,filled with Rockwool insulation to make sure they are totally draft free.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> I found it better to convert this to my queens needs using under tiled heating like you do your kitchen floor, it makes it more accessable if there is a complication,the queen gives birth at a great hieght to allow you to help comfortably,if there is a problem it also keeps the kittens safer from drafts and infections and can be properly sanatised, rather than a conventional homemade birthing box, as I said i take the safety of my queen and kittens very seriously.


Now that is a great idea. I have vivid memories of spending three hours on and off my knees in the summer because I needed to see the queen's progress with a difficult birth, and it was very difficult and quite painful for me as I have arthritis.

Liz


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> The under tiled heating I fitted myself and is manually controlled *and remains on in the summer,mainly in the morning and the evenings.I feel keeping the tiled heating on during the summer mornings and evenings it prevents condensation and damp, but thats just my personal opinion not sure if it does, it just seems to to me.*In addition to this the cattery's are double lined with a 32mm insulation gap,filled with Rockwool insulation to make sure they are totally draft free.


thanks TT... I totally agree :thumbsup:... even in July or August it is not at all unusual to have low nighttime temps in the single digits, so I defintiely do feel heating is needed and it does definitely cut down condensation and dampness. Which is why I had to laugh when that other breeder scoffed at me and my over "over-protectiveness" (well... as she perecived it).

(before anyone reminds me... yeah I know ferals survive without heating bla bla bla etc etc ... but like I stated last time around.. survival rates for feral kittens are not high, I would prefer to better that survival rate, not equal it)


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Yes I can see that ... if you raise a lot of kittens at the same time. I don't see a need for me to do that though, as I keep a very close eye on mine, so they are perfectly safe  I'd much rather kitten proof a room, and have a stair gate up to prevent a wandering queen.


I dont raise alot of kittens at a time,thought we clarified that.

However I do have alot of Pet owners visit me, grooming, boarding so the risk of infection is higher than normal.

I keep a very close eye on them, but being a mere man, I am naturally useless and I can not see micro-bacterial infections on my clients/customers transfered via their Pets


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

lizward said:


> Now that is a great idea. I have vivid memories of spending three hours on and off my knees in the summer because I needed to see the queen's progress with a difficult birth, and it was very difficult and quite painful for me as I have arthritis.
> 
> Liz


Thats one of the reasons I did it, I can pull up a chair and watch and assist with ease, and without stressing my queens out, trying to bend over them or getting comfortable etc


----------



## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Now that is a great idea. I have vivid memories of spending three hours on and off my knees in the summer because I needed to see the queen's progress with a difficult birth, and it was very difficult and quite painful for me as I have arthritis.
> 
> Liz


Liz
Can I ask you! why do you have so many cats and hamsters? And do you make money for selling either! just curious as I need to make some pennies for christmas


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Liz
> Can I ask you! why do you have so many cats and hamsters? And do you make money for selling either! just curious as I need to make some pennies for christmas


hey you, hows ya stuffed toy business going?


----------



## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> hey you, hows ya stuffed toy business going?


run outta stuffing Mrs D! the bloody snow melted didn't it! it were alright when we were at zero! need to come up wiff another plan!


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Liz
> Can I ask you! why do you have so many cats and hamsters? And do you make money for selling either! just curious as I need to make some pennies for christmas


I don't have any hamsters at all now, just cats and a dog. And no, I've never made a profit!

Liz


----------



## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> I don't have any hamsters at all now, just cats and a dog. And no, I've never made a profit!
> 
> Liz


where did your hamsters go?
and how many cats do you have?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Here we go again!

Hamsters do not have a very long lifespan. I stopped breeding them. Or, I fed them all to the cats because I was broke. Take your pick.

Liz


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

lizward said:


> Here we go again!
> 
> Hamsters do not have a very long lifespan. I stopped breeding them. Or, I fed them all to the cats because I was broke. Take your pick.
> 
> Liz


It was actually a serious question! Just wanted to know from the horse's mouth how many cats you had rather then jumping to conclusions coz I was reading through the lines! is that a problem?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I don't mind telling you how many cats I have, but asking where the hamsters went seemed rather pointless. After the hamsters, we had mice. Then at one stage we had rats too and they were lovely. Right now we have no rodents at all, though I confess I would love a rabbit, but every time I say that to my husband he makes comments about stew.

My current cat count, including kittens, is 20.

Liz


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks for the reply, TT 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the aspect of how enriched a cat's life can be when it spends a lot of its time penned. I know you've said that what is right for one cat, won't be for another but I simply can't pull myself away from the belief that a cat.. is a cat... is a cat.. and the delight, for me, is seeing them do what comes naturally for the best part of their day. But you've said that your cats have an exercise programme and you quite obviously put an awful lot of thought and effort into their care; it's not for me to condemn because, for all I know, your cats may spend a lot of time indoors with the family and/or legging it around your garden enjoying themselves.

I completely agree on the good/bad, indoor/outdoor aspect. I've seen breeders' homes where all the cats are indoors, they're overcrowded and not kept in very nice conditions at all. At the other extreme, I've seen cats who are kept in beautiful outdoor accommodation with their every (basic) need catered for... who are SO institutionalised to living in a pen that they don't wander out even when the door is left open. Neither are 'good', far from it.

I'm sorry, but I'd have to be highly critical of the size of your cats' outdoor accommodation, particularly for such an athletic breed as the Bengal. To me, the accommodation is big enough for a cat to spend a comfy week or two in whilst the owner is on holiday; not for a cat to spend the bulk of its day in. Again, my viewpoint there might be completely negated by the possibility that your cats *don't* spend a lot of their day in a pen and it's possible that the photos you've shown us are of your boarding pens and not your own cats' accommodation.

It's very ironic (not to mention hypocritical!) for me to criticise and yet say that, were I looking to buy a kitten as a pet, I'd be *more* than happy to be one of your customers. It's clear that you take enormous pride in your cats, a lot of care re their health and your kittens are socialised with your family, in your home.

I can't, however, remove my breeder's hat and, as such, I suppose the concept of breeding as a business (or part of) is an alien one to me. I appreciate that there is a world of difference between a breeder who proclaims it to be their hobby yet all they're trying to do is cram in as many cats as they can and barely conceal the fact they're merely trying to make money... and someone like yourself. It would be an insult for me to compare you to the former. But that still leaves me with the notion that both are motivated by profit and, we're that not to be the case, then in both scenarios there would almost certainly be fewer cats, living in a far more spacious and enriched environment, whether indoor or outdoor. But that seems to be the one aspect that you and I obviously see so differently.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

i bought a little (well 10ft long 4ft wide) 'summer house & run ' for the cats so when it was hot and we were out there or had the door open they could enjoy the outside.

It was a real big disapointment, they constantly cry, try and climb the wire and even though its full of toys and trees and little play houses, they sit their paws on the wire crying their eyes out searching the inside of the house desperate to get a glimpse of me for my attention 

after about 5days, we gave up, they would also go mad when they came in, all over me for one, but running round the house to burn off energy.

i also think it was too small, some would say its massive (looks it) but i think 1cat poss needs 15x15 then a run on top of that.

as the partner said 'it is a big waste of money...can i take it down now!?'
and its coming down! plus the ground is awful here all muddy so its now mouldy!!


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm sorry, but I'd have to be highly critical of the size of your cats' outdoor accommodation, particularly for such an athletic breed as the Bengal. To me, the accommodation is big enough for a cat to spend a comfy week or two in whilst the owner is on holiday; not for a cat to spend the bulk of its day in. Again, my viewpoint there might be completely negated by the possibility that your cats *don't* spend a lot of their day in a pen and it's possible that the photos you've shown us are of your boarding pens and not your own cats' accommodation.


I would agree.









I would estimate a width of 1m.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I disagree my cats are the opposite they come indoors and raise their kittens indoors around our home.


That seems a bit harsh/unfair, to someone who was simply a pet cat owner 

The females are brought in to have their kittens, so you have socialised kits to sell, then the mums are put back outside (outdoor accommodation) until they produce their next litter? Then in they come for a couple of month etc.

I can see that your cats are not kept as pets, but I am surprised at this to be honest. 
I am not suggesting that you do not provide very well for their basic needs etc, simply surprised that the queens lead such a dual existence and as a cat lover I find it all a bit sad. But maybe this is simply the "norm" for many cats in the cat breeding world? I know little or nothing about it :confused1:


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> All litters are born in my home, in my birthing box, it has heated tiled floors,fully washable and gives the female security for her kittens and the ability to stretch her legs undisturbed between feeds, and we can open the bottom doors so she can explore the rest of the house and return:thumbup:


Aren't they rabbit hutches? I think my friend has one similar to these for his house bunny!


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Aren't they rabbit hutches? I think my friend has one similar to these for his house bunny!


I think you could be right.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I think you could be right.


Lauren, your a little behind, we had this conversation last night.



> Originally Posted by Aurelia
> Never thought of using a rabbit hutch! Not sure I would though
> 
> I found it better to convert this to my queens needs using under tiled heating like you do your kitchen floor, it makes it more accessable if there is a complication,the queen gives birth at a great hieght to allow you to help comfortably,if there is a problem it also keeps the kittens safer from drafts and infections and can be properly sanatised, rather than a conventional homemade birthing box, as I said i take the safety of my queen and kittens very seriously.


__________________


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Lauren, your a little behind, we had this conversation last night.
> 
> __________________


I missed it too, never mind I was right, it is a rabbit hutch. Looked like my friends, but difficult to get idea of scale on pics sometimes :confused1:


----------



## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

One of our cats (not this one) used to go into the dolls house Reckon it were a fair big bigger then that though!


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Sorry to butt in, but out of curiosity, why would a rabbit hutch be used to house a cat?


----------



## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I think it's being used as a kittening pen, nothing wrong with that so long as the mum can come and go as she pleases and isn't shut in all the time


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Its not used to house a cat its used as a birthing box for a queen to deliver her babies safely.

If you read the Sticky's above there is loads of advice on birthing boxes,some breeder use all sorts of things from something as simple as a card board box.

Anyone who breeds knows how important it is to keep the kittens draft free, due to the fact they can not regulate their own body temp, and rely on Mum to keep warm etc.

an example of the sticky,s above.



> Milly22
> Pet Forums VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2008
> Posts: 3,320
> Images: 6
> ...


----------



## staceyscats1 (Feb 17, 2008)

Just been reading through this !!! wow what a thread :~)

To be honest i personally would not want my cats to live in outside pens instead they have my home and my bed to sleep on lol 
I love to have all my cats around me and wouldnt have it any other way 
This however doesnt mean those that have outdoor pens are bad breeders its a matter of opinion and each breeder is different. 
I do not own a stud as i cant house him inside and lets face it in the cold weather how many people are going to sit outside with the cat to keep him company. how many hours of the day would they spend outdoors on their own ? 
dont get me wrong my cats will spend hours asleep on my bed and not sat with me , but thats their choice not a situation i have created through them being outside.

I think this thread comes down to many things

1) some breeders see their cats as "breeding animals"
For me my babies are my beloved pets first and formost

2) some breeders have outdoor homes for their cats and some have indoor homes
either of these options are not better than the other , its down to personal peference

The most important thing in all of this , is that your cats are happy, healthy and you can hold your hand on your heart and say you do everything you can to provide for your cats , and that doesnt mean just the basics !! that means EVERYTHING !

Anyway thats my rant on this


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I can see that your cats are not kept as pets, but I am surprised at this to be honest.
> I am not suggesting that you do not provide very well for their basic needs etc, simply surprised that the queens lead such a dual existence and as a cat lover I find it all a bit sad. But maybe this is simply the "norm" for many cats in the cat breeding world? I know little or nothing about it :confused1:


As much as I can't deny that TT as a breeder is far preferable to many breeders out there (like breeders who use outside accomodations that really ARE delapadated old sheds, or breeders with indoor cats "stored" in cages or who are overcrowded with cats) .... I still cannot bring myself to condone the manner in which TT breeds his grogeous cats (and they are undeniably gorgeous). He knows these grave reservations I have, I have said it in the past. I won't deny that I believe he turns out, "quality" & "healthy" kittens, whose every basic need has been met to the proper extent -- I can't take that off him and that is a massive plus and absolutely in his favour..

BUT the socialistation apsects of so many outdoor cats kept in (what I consider) very small (and isolated?) acocmodations... well as much as they are quality outdoor accomodations built and finished to a high standard... I would never buy one of his kittens as I don't support (personally) this kind of approach to breeding. I just....... it's just not for me.

It all sounds too cold and sterile and regimented for my liking. I miss the human cosy cuddly side of it with this kind of approach to breeding. Cats on beds, cats on windowsills, cats on the kitchen worktops.... domestic animals means animals in the home, with the family, not in the garden....


----------



## frizzy67 (Aug 1, 2010)

just a quick note I have already purchased a Siamese kitten from TT and I am also lucky enough to be the proud owner of both this and one of his Bengals as of christmas eve.
I can therefore be certain that his kittens are very socialised my girl is so loving and with a teenage son whom doesn't know if he needs his xbox louder than his music or vice versa she has never been bothered by any noise the only exception to this is my husbands footspa but I think it is the bubbling water she is opposed to rather than the noise.
I live quite close to TT and often call into his house unexpected and can vouch that I never know which cat will be on the window ledge or as quite often in the summer sitting on his lap on the decking whilst he is enjoying a cuppa. they all have equal love and time spent on them. 
I have often called in not to see Gary but just to spend time cuddling Gizmo (me being partial to him and he always having gorgeous loud purrs for me) (shh dont tell Gary he thinks that is his company and coffee that keeps bringing me back)
I love the idea of his birthing pen regardless of what it actually is. 
when I was looking at various breeders cardboard boxes just dont look comfortable for kittens, it looks so last minute oops what can i shove this queen into to give birth to these kittens oh I know theres a box over there i will use that. This is just my opinion of course.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

frizzy67 said:


> I can therefore be certain that his kittens are very socialised .


ok, kitten socialisation aside, hope you don't mind me asking... don't you have any issues with the size of the accomodation given to the outside cats (the mothers and fathers of these kittens) and the level of socialisation and the quality of life _they_ have? I mean we can see the photos above, they are very small for a ct to spend anything more than a week or fortnight in. Or a few hours a day maybe. They are not suitable for a cat to _live_ in.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

frizzy67 said:


> just a quick note I have already purchased a Siamese kitten from TT and I am also lucky enough to be the proud owner of both this and one of his Bengals as of christmas eve.
> I can therefore be certain that his kittens are very socialised my girl is so loving and with a teenage son whom doesn't know if he needs his xbox louder than his music or vice versa she has never been bothered by any noise the only exception to this is my husbands footspa but I think it is the bubbling water she is opposed to rather than the noise.
> I live quite close to TT and often call into his house unexpected and can vouch that I never know which cat will be on the window ledge or as quite often in the summer sitting on his lap on the decking whilst he is enjoying a cuppa. they all have equal love and time spent on them.
> I have often called in not to see Gary but just to spend time cuddling Gizmo (me being partial to him and he always having gorgeous loud purrs for me) (shh dont tell Gary he thinks that is his company and coffee that keeps bringing me back)
> ...


TBH, I would actually opt for a cardboard box over a rabbit hutch  That's if I only had those two choices. I actually use a converted blanket box from Homebase, which is perfect. Plus it means my girl is never locked in, her kits are safe from drafts and anything else.

Then when the kittens are mobile they are free to wander in the kitten proofed room. I don't see any need for a pen if you're only raising one litter at a time though. Obviously if you're raising two litters at the same time you have to take steps to keep everyone safe. For me though I'll stick to one litter at a time. That way I wont be compromising on socialisation and affection . It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you can provide more of those things to fewer kittens.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I've got a lovely old kittening cube that my (ex) father in law made me about 20 years ago. He was a carpenter/cabinet maker and it's beautifully made... and way too damn heavy to be lugged around so it never gets used nowadays.

I really like the idea of a raised 'nest' (as with TT's) to save my poor knees and back but I really can't understand the need for it to be enclosed/contain a litter tray??

Cardboard box all the way for me  Looks a bit tatty after a few weeks but it gets chucked by the time the kittens are 3 weeks old max, so no-one but me ever need see it!


----------



## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Tje said:


> very well said! :thumbsup:
> 
> (I am trying to fluffy up my posts at the moment as some members think I should be less blunt... but posts like this... it's very tricky to be too pc and too welcoming as the message does get lost in the delivery when one is too pink & fluffy, my true feelings are exactly as yours)


don't go pink and fluffy Tje,your posts are fab as they are!

the word business venture does start alarm bells ringing! What would be your reasons for wanting to breed? would you want to show? better the breed,provide people with lovely pets? Have you got the time for socialising the kittens,litter training weaning etc?

I had my first litter this year and loved every minute of it,but it is exceptionally time consuming! and very very expensive. If you are doing it for financial gain then you will be bitterly disappointed.

Izzie


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> TBH, I would actually opt for a cardboard box over a rabbit hutch  That's if I only had those two choices. I actually use a converted blanket box from Homebase, which is perfect. Plus it means my girl is never locked in, her kits are safe from drafts and anything else.
> 
> Then when the kittens are mobile they are free to wander in the kitten proofed room. I don't see any need for a pen if you're only raising one litter at a time though. Obviously if you're raising two litters at the same time you have to take steps to keep everyone safe. For me though I'll stick to one litter at a time. That way I wont be compromising on socialisation and affection . It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you can provide more of those things to fewer kittens.


And I have to say Aurelia, if I were ever to buy a pedigree kitten, then you are the type of breeder I would be looking for :001_wub:

I would run a mile from someone who kept their "girls" outside, just as I would run a mile from a dog breeder who kept their bitches outdoors all year around (heated accommodation or not), only bringing them in to ensure their offspring were socialised 

To be honest I never realised cat breeding had such a commercial side, dog breeding yes, but not cat breeding! You live and learn alas .... :scared:


----------



## Guest (Dec 11, 2010)

Not bitching or anything like that but I couldnt even dream of thinking of mine outside.  Heated or not. They are my members of family, I decided to get them I know mine wouldnt like to be left out of the family home.

Hell put one of mine in the garden and they run straight back in...:lol:


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I started off with boxes and then bought a really nice one, cats love it all covered with a open door, kits cant get out but mum can, they are in the lounge so mum has the run and litter tray food and cuddles or playtime up the many stratch posts 

I couldnt have a hutch like that because 1. my last litter at 4days old one kitten followed mum scent Out of the kitten box!!! along the floor!! at 4days old!! we call him froggy & made the side of the box higher!!  little scamp!

so that kitten would have fallen down the hole, plus i like mine cats to be free range haha  :thumbup:


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I started off with boxes and then bought a really nice one, cats love it all covered with a open door, kits cant get out but mum can, they are in the lounge so mum has the run and litter tray food and cuddles or playtime up the many stratch posts
> 
> I couldnt have a hutch like that because 1. my last litter at 4days old one kitten followed mum scent Out of the kitten box!!! along the floor!! at 4days old!! we call him froggy & made the side of the box higher!!  little scamp!
> 
> so that kitten would have fallen down the hole, plus i like mine cats to be free range haha  :thumbup:


As stated in the original conversation on this subject way back on page 11 for anyone who may'be has not read the whole thread

The queen is only in their for the first three days, and has the bottom doors left open so she has the run of the house.

So no risk of kittens falling etc then they are moved from their to the kitten nursery again explained on page 11 from day 3 to day 21 to make sure there is no risk of infection, slightly higher risk for me as I groom and board the general Publics cats,so I minimise the risk of infection.

Then they come back into the house where they have the run of the house,sleep on my childrens beds,run around the sofa etc etc.

Its just different approaches to breeding, I get fantastic results,fantastic temperament,perfect health,all the kittens leave well adjusted and socialised,and make the most perfect family Pets and it is what my customers say that counts and they tell me how pleased they are,how great the kittens have become in their lifes.

My style of breeding does not go down with everyone, but it goes down well with those that matter the ones who buy my beautiful kittens.

A few have posted on here they would not buy one of my kittens.
But the real question is would I sell to them, would they pass the vetting :lol::lol:


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> Its just different approaches to breeding, * I get fantastic results,fantastic temperament,perfect health,all the kittens leave well adjusted and socialised,and make the most perfect family Pets *and it is what my customers say that counts and they tell me how pleased they are,how great the kittens have become in their lifes.


Is this just perhaps just too good to be true?


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> A few have posted on here they would not buy one of my kittens.
> But the real question is would I sell to them, would they pass the vetting :lol::lol:


as long as it's a buyers market TT, that's a pretty moot point .

But as one who said I wouldn't buy a kitten off you (for the reasons, the studs and queens live outdoors and the too sterile/clinical approach to producing "quality" kittens at the expense of home grown pets) what issues *do* you have (if any) with myself and others who share my stance, when it comes to us as perspective owners.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> as long as it's a buyers market TT, that's a pretty moot point .
> 
> But as one who said I wouldn't buy a kitten off you (for the reasons, the studs and queens live outdoors and the too sterile/clinical approach to producing "quality" kittens at the expense of home grown pets) what issues *do* you have (if any) with myself and others who share my stance, when it comes to us as perspective owners.


That was a little light hearted humour Tje,
its was not a serious comment hense the laughing symbols after it.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> Is this just perhaps just too good to be true?





> frizzy67
> Pet Forums Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010
> Location: Newcastle
> Posts: 95
> ...


I have many customers that keep in contact with me, like Frizzy and let me know what impact my kittens have on their lives.

As with all my kittens I stand by them, I offer them life time boarding so the owners never have to find someone to look after their kittens/cats should they need it for holidays,emergencies etc.

I offer a money back Gaurantee if they are not happy with their purchase, how many breeders can say they truely stand by their kittens for life, I have Facebook set up in the business name,so my owners can see there kittens growing up,so they can contact me at anytime throughout the kittens/cats life or just to let me know if they have any queries or how they are getting on etc


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> As stated in the original conversation on this subject way back on page 11 for anyone who may'be has not read the whole thread
> 
> The queen is only in their for the first three days, and has the bottom doors left open so she has the run of the house.
> 
> ...


TT, while it sounds like you've thought things through ... I actually think you may be doing more harm than good there. That's a lot of moving around.

For a queen that spends most of her life outside, I would imagine it's a very stressful process to go through all of that. Not only is she brought into the house, but she is then move after only 3 days into an outdoor building . A stressed cat and kittens is at more risk of picking up infections. So although you think you're removing some of the risk, I'd personally say you're actually increasing the risk. She and her kittens may be at more risk of picking something up off your clothes and shoes this way. You may have been very lucky so far not to have had this happen.

Just my opinion though. I'd be interested to here what other reputable breeders think.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

TT, how many boarding pens do you have? And do you keep them separate from the other pens with your kitties in? Do you mind showing a picture or two of the boarding pens?

Also, I remember you remarking ages ago that you don't need to advertise your litters as you have a long waiting list. Did I remember right?


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> I have many customers that keep in contact with me, like Frizzy and let me know what impact my kittens have on their lives.
> 
> As with all my kittens I stand by them, I offer them life time boarding so the owners never have to find someone to look after their kittens/cats should they need it for holidays,emergencies etc.
> 
> I offer a money back Gaurantee if they are not happy with their purchase, how many breeders can say they truely stand by their kittens for life, I have Facebook set up in the business name,so my owners can see there kittens growing up,so they can contact me at anytime throughout the kittens/cats life or just to let me know if they have any queries or how they are getting on etc


I just think it is all just a bit like advertising bullsh*t. 
This is the real world, not the world of advertising. Cats and kittens are animals and things do go wrong, but not obviously in your perfect world.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I offer a *money back Gaurantee *if they are not happy with *their pruchase*,


TT, do you have any idea how cold and clinical that sounds... ? 

It really sounds like your selling cars or tellys instead of cuddly wee bundles of cheeky lovliness.

The other day you said something similar along the lines of "I produce quality kittens throughout the year".

Maybe I have just gone pink 'n' fluffy in the brain, but using words like "_producing_" and "_quality_" it makes me think of farmers producing quality brussel sprouts (or some other inanimate object).

So I hope you don't take it the wrong way when I say, I don't think your language does you any favours TT. One hand (like Lauren is saying) a lot of it *does* comes over as hard-sell marketing tactics, and other parts of it sounds so cold and clinical.


----------



## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> I have many customers that keep in contact with me, like Frizzy and let me know what impact my kittens have on their lives.
> 
> As with all my kittens I stand by them, I offer them life time boarding so the owners never have to find someone to look after their kittens/cats should they need it for holidays,emergencies etc.
> 
> I offer a money back Gaurantee if they are not happy with their purchase, how many breeders can say they truely stand by their kittens for life, I have Facebook set up in the business name,so my owners can see there kittens growing up,so they can contact me at anytime throughout the kittens/cats life or just to let me know if they have any queries or how they are getting on etc


I dont think TT is doing anything unique here, as most reputable breeders ive met and including myself do this practice...............CHRIS


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

So this cat breeding business, TT is it a full time job or a hobby?


----------



## Guest (Dec 11, 2010)

Tje said:


> TT, do you have any idea how cold and clinical that sounds... ?


I agree with you as per usual my love.

When I have a litter next year all my pups will have a contract which states that if the owner feels they can no longer cope, dont feel they are right for the breed or feel the pup is ill in anyway they are welcome to bring it back and have a full refund (as long as proven sick by a vet).

Then again I would sooner keep the whole litter than pick a home that isnt just right for my pups.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

raggs said:


> I dont think TT is doing anything unique here, as most reputable breeders ive met and including myself do this practice...............CHRIS


agreed Raggs, every reputable breeder I know offers this... in fact, "demand or insist" would probably be a better word. So no, not at all unique to take a kitten or cat back if for whatever reason the new owner can't keep it. The only difference I see is, most breeders use the kind of "animal friendly" language Shetlandlover used, and not the "money back guarantee if you're unhappy with your purchase" type of language.

see all this pink fluffiness *has* gone to my brain


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

ive had people shocked that they are allowed to visit their kitten whenever they want, just call me first! ive met extended family, from brothers to mums/dads/sisters/freinds/cousins! been here for 4 hours at a time, but I think thats what you should do,

plus i write 'the daily kitten' which is a email like newspaper with daily updates and pics and vids (weekly) texts, people should see their kit grow up 


always there, one guy a new kitten owner was sooo worried, i had calls daily (up to 3) and at 3am!! nothing wrong with the kitten he was just so worried he was doing everything wrong!! afte a few weeks its settled down (thank god lol!) 

i know alot of breeders who keep their cats outside and bring them in 2weeks before birth, then they go back outside when the kits are x amount old.

not my thing as i like my pets with me 


i dont offer a 'money back gareentee' as im selling a life not a kettle.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

raggs said:


> I dont think TT is doing anything unique here, as most reputable breeders ive met and including myself do this practice...............CHRIS


No, he is not, you are correct. 
TT is a marketing man, breeding kittens merely for money, under the mistaken thinking that we cannot see through his little set up.



> i dont offer a 'money back guarantee' as im selling a life not a kettle.


Well said TB


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Well said TB


thank you


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> No, he is not, you are correct.
> TT is a marketing man, breeding kittens merely for money, under the mistaken thinking that we cannot see through his little set up.
> 
> Well said TB


I dont have to justify or explain my processes, how I word things is irrelavant.

I produce,I breed, I let my queen have, I line my queen, however you say it you are doing the same as everyone else letting your Cat have offspring.

I have on my time read on here of people doing this on purpose,accidental,by mistake,as an experiment,to further a breed, to see what is like, because they thought it was best for her to have one litter before spaying, as a new business venture to name but a few.

I have read people about people getting it right and getting it wrong.

And their is a common theme of certain people shooting everyone down, this is wrong that is wrong,you should do this or you should do that.

The truth is breeding is very subjective and many breeders differ in their approach to reach the same goal of healthy kittens,well socialised,its easy to say I would do this and I would do that, but who is to say your right, what you are really projecting on posts is your personal standards and opinions not fact.

The trouble we have on the breeding forum is we have alot of people who like to project their views in such a way as to try and be little others,we regular see it turn into a shoot the breeder thread like the other night.

I dont want a pat on the back for my breeding style,I really dont care if you like it or you dont, if its against your beliefs or its not, I know that my cats are happy, I know the quality and health of my kittens is excellent, and that my Cats want for nothing.

The trouble with some on hear is they do not respect people and their differences and turn the thread into a personal pxxxsing contest,rather than give their opinion of their own personal views they try to tear strips of people.

My neighbour next door has a parrot in a cage, I personally would not have one as I think its cruel it cant fly,just flutter side to side or climb the bars, however I would not stand in his home and tell him he is a cruel git because he is supressing it natural desire to fly, why because its extremely rude and disrespectful.

But on the forum some think this behaviour is acceptable because they are hiding behind a computer screen."Yes Lauren that is the real world" people like you, who think its acceptable to turn it personal.

I see breeders come on hear, and share their experiences,knowledge,thier differences or views on breeding only to be singled out as some kind ****.And what makes it worse is half of the people doing the pointing dont even breed,and never have.

They should re-name the breeding forum,to Public flogging by the Mob forum


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I dont have to justify or explain my processes, how I word things is irrelavant.
> 
> I produce,I breed, I let my queen have, I line my queen, however you say it you are doing the same as everyone else letting your Cat have offspring.
> 
> ...


Just something to bare in mind TT. People are reacting to *your* posts, asking questions because of *your* posts.  This is something I have come to realise lately.

All these claims of personal attacks ... People react to what *you're* saying, so maybe it's worth looking back at your own posts to try and figure out why?

I know I personally would not breed the way you do. I've stated why, and also that it is _just_ my opinion  I don't see you causing any of your cats/kittens harm, but I don't believe they have enough socialisation. I also wouldn't choose to pen any of my girls like you do either, their pens do seem rather small when you look at it properly, no matter how well made or aesthetically pleasing they are. Again just my opinion though.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Tellingtails ~ May I ask what happens to your queens and toms once you no longer want them for breeding? Do you neuter them and bring them inside to share your home on a permanent basis or do they spend the rest of their lives outside in pens? Or, maybe you neuter and sell on?

I do hope they are eventually able to experience what it is like to live as a full time companion cat, indoors as part of a loving family. Tragic if they don't


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Just something to bare in mind TT. People are reacting to *your* posts, asking questions because of *your* posts.  This is something I have come to realise lately.
> 
> All these claims of personal attacks ... People react to what *you're* saying, so maybe it's worth looking back at your own posts to try and figure out why?
> 
> I know I personally would not breed the way you do. I've stated why, and also that it is _just_ my opinion  I don't see you causing any of your cats/kittens harm, but I don't believe they have enough socialisation. I also wouldn't choose to pen any of my girls like you do either, their pens do seem rather small when you look at it properly, no matter how well made or aesthetically pleasing they are. Again just my opinion though.


Here it is again about socailisation,you do not even know my cats routine and how much time is spent with them by me,my wife,my family,my staff so how can you judge they dont have enough socialisation, this is you thinking they are pend up and nobody spends time with them.I would bet money on if we put a stop watch on socialisation time,I would win in terms of quality interaction, I dont mean someone sitting in the same room as the Cat.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Tellingtails ~ May I ask what happens to your queens and toms once you no longer want them for breeding? Do you neuter them and bring them inside to share your home on a permanent basis or do they spend the rest of their lives outside in pens? Or, maybe you neuter and sell on?
> 
> I do hope they are eventually able to experience what it is like to live as a full time companion cat, indoors as part of a loving family. Tragic if they don't


I neuter them, my wife works along side social services and as such has a lot of social worker friends,

I have what is called a caring companion program,every year I donate a couple of kittens,or neutered retired cats to those who lives they can touch,in the past these have been elderly people who have lost their partners, disabled people who are house bound and need a companion.Children who have lost parents or have been abused and need something in their lifes they can trust.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Is there no end to this marketing drive? We are now onto the charity donations. LOL


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Here it is again about socailisation,you do not even know my cats routine and how much time is spent with them by me,my wife,my family,my staff so how can you judge they dont have enough socialisation, this is you thinking they are pend up and nobody spends time with them.I would bet money on if we put a stop watch on socialisation time,I would win in terms of quality interaction, *I dont mean someone sitting in the same room as the Cat*.


If you say so TT... but remember that is only your opinion too  Though I can tell you I spent 24 hours a day with my girls up until they were 10 weeks old (might have been 11 or 12, can't remember to be exact). That was exactly that mind. Being Agoraphobic does have its advantages


----------



## MatildaG (Nov 8, 2010)

I just wanted to add my two pennies worth as I've been following this thread since the start but as a non breeder, haven't posted until now.

I think TT is getting an extrordinarily hard time for, from what I can see, doing the very best by his cats and kittens. Whatever your position on the indoor / outdoor thing, noone can deny that TT appears to put an awful lot of hard work and love into his work with his cats and I would be inclined to trust him implicitly as a breeder if I were looking for a kitten and that's just from what I've read from him. I certainly dont think his cats and kittens are suffering, far from it in fact.


There are the likes of BYBs and worse who would be more deserving of such a grilling...


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

MatildaG said:


> I just wanted to add my two pennies worth as I've been following this thread since the start but as a non breeder, haven't posted until now.
> 
> I think TT is getting an extrordinarily hard time for, from what I can see, doing the very best by his cats and kittens. Whatever your position on the indoor / outdoor thing, noone can deny that TT appears to put an awful lot of hard work and love into his work with his cats and I would be inclined to trust him implicitly as a breeder if I were looking for a kitten and that's just from what I've read from him. I certainly dont think his cats and kittens are suffering, far from it in fact.
> 
> There are the likes of BYBs and worse who would be more deserving of such a grilling...


Thankyou for your support,

Hard time is what some people do on here, it gives them some sort of purpose,but the truth is nobody truely cares.

Those that get a hard time on this breeding section, just brush it off.

I know the truth anyone who knows me personally,knows me and my cats and what I stand for.

This happened a few months ago and I asked anyone who wanted to compare their kittens/cats to the quality of mine and the socailisation of mine, to come for coffee and bring their kittens/cats.And we would see who has socialised cats/kittens.

Funny enough nobody took me up on the offer.

Its easy to be upfront behind a screen.Little different when asked to put your money were your mouth is though.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I dont have to justify or explain my processes,


of course you don't, but people do have the right to express and opinion, whether you want to justify yourself or not.



tellingtails said:


> how I word things is irrelavant.


to you maybe, but don't moan when other people react to your wording, which you are doing. People are allowed to be put off by wording, they don't need to justify themselves to you either. They are allowed to be put off and they are allowed to decide for themselves what is and isn't relevant.



tellingtails said:


> what makes it worse is half of the people doing the pointing dont even breed,and never have.


TT, if that was aimed at me no I dont breed, but I have raised a heck of lot more kittens over a longer period of years than manys a breeder. I don't advice on genetics and the like, never have. But I'm more than qualified to have an opinion on how cats & kittens are kept. That's not rocket science. Any half competent cat owner (heck even non-cat owners) can comment on something as simple as "do cats belong in the home or in 100 cm wide runs in the garden".

No one needs to run their professional cvs past the mods before were allowed to post. We're all allowed to have an opinion.

Like Aurelia says, we all put ourselves out there by posting our opinions on a public forum. No one makes us do it. We all do it voluntarily.

If we dont want people to challenge us, then we shouldnt post.

And as for this _its all opinion not fact_  of course it is!!

99.9% of this forum has always been, and always will be about opinions. If it wasnt about opinions it would be called an encyclopedia or something like that and not a discussion forum. Discussion by its very nature is based on opinion. Heck, when all is said and done, even vets just give opinions, and those professional opinions are not always similar, let alone identical.

With no opinions there would be no forum, just a reference type website like the very many out there.


----------



## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

There will be no more "grilling" thank you very much, or this thread will be closed.


----------



## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

Closed to give you all time to re-think and calm down.

As Mark has said, warnings shall be given out for members who part-take in petty arguments.


----------

