# Wild Lynx - what do you think?



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I saw on the news this morning that there is an application to re-introduce the wild Lynx into a forest in Northumberland. I'm not sure how I'd feel about that if I lived in the area.

What does everyone think? Good idea or not?


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

What do lynx prey on?


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm not sure really. On the one hand it would be interesting to have them back and see how they settle in. 
On the other hand there's not many wild places in the UK now. Would they be able to live off the wildlife there or would they cause problems for farmers?

I wouldn't think there would b danger of them attacking people. They would be far more likely to hide and keep away from us.

Hard to say really. Though I would love to see them in the UK


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Mirandashell said:


> What do lynx prey on?


No idea, but I would imagine if desperate it would be anything that moves, including the average little dog. The man on telly did say there has never been a human attacked in the history of the species, but then the human wouldn't be alive to write about it, would they? They are not vegetarians, that's for sure.

The other reason I'm not keen is that if you put a beautiful creature like that out in the wild, some hero will think it makes him look a big man to shoot it. I prefer to see them protected myself.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

I think they generally eat squirrels and rabbits etc. Probably chickens if they could!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

HarlequinCat said:


> I'm not sure really. On the one hand it would be interesting to have them back and see how they settle in.
> On the other hand there's not many wild places in the UK now. Would they be able to live off the wildlife there or would they cause problems for farmers?
> 
> I wouldn't think there would b danger of them attacking people. They would be far more likely to hide and keep away from us.
> ...


That another point - the excuse to keep fox hunting is that they are a danger to farmers. Wouldn't a lynx be an even bigger danger? When they get to a few thousand, the heroes will make that an excuse to legally hunt them.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I say No.

The environment and society has moved on. I can only see conflict between the Lynx and humans - especially livestock farmers. 

It's sad they are not still part of our countryside, but I don't see how they could fit back in now - too much has changed.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

I think it's wonderful! Been ongoing for a while - really hope they are successful.

They are primarily deer hunters - UK is overpopulated with deer, which are damaging forests and therefore other wildlife habitats. There will be a compensation fund to cover occasional losses of sheep, which will be funded by the tourism they would create.

http://www.lynxuk.org/index.html

https://www.facebook.com/lynxuktrust/posts/798292100220484:0


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I don't think farmers are at all happy about it. Being carnivores they are going to eat any small animal I would imagine, and lambs are going to be high on its list, not mention some domestic or stray pets. Personally, I think they should be left where they are in countries with huge ranges for them to exist, the UK is too small. Whenever they introduce something new, it alters the structure of wildlife and generally gets out of control. Doing it "officially" doesn't make it right. Remember this last year which caused panic

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-36935424

Edit: I know there is an over population of deer in certain areas but I would rather they were humanely shot, mainly to avoid starvation in the winter, than torn to pieces by a wild cat.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Much as I love the idea of seeing our wiped out indigenous species brought back, I think there are too many people now, many of them can barely cope with living in proximity with foxes, so it would probably not be in the best interest of the lynx.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ShibaPup said:


> I think it's wonderful! Been ongoing for a while - really hope they are successful.
> 
> They are primarily deer hunters - UK is overpopulated with deer, which are damaging forests and therefore other wildlife habitats. There will be a compensation fund to cover occasional losses of sheep, which will be funded by the tourism they would create.
> 
> ...


But in a few years we will be overpopulated with lynx instead. It's all very well to talk about culling the deer and sacrificing a few sheep, but I for one don't want to see those creature ripped to shreds.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Hunting isn't enough - deer populations are still out of control.

Lynx are efficient hunters, secretive and unlikely to leave their small territory. They live in forests - highly unlikely to travel out to open farmland to hunt, when there is plenty of deer available... there have been no reports of wild Lynx attacking humans, dogs or horses - they are typically avoided.

They have specifically chosen this location as a trial period for 5 years - I believe they want to release 6 Lynx for the trial but Kielder Forest could maintain a population of around 50. These animals will have GPS collars to be tracked and monitored very closely.

Lynx controlling deer benefiting forests



__ https://www.facebook.com/lynxuktrust/posts/798773173505710



Threat (or lack of) to humans
https://www.facebook.com/lynxuktrust/posts/800885013294526:0

Lynx and sheep predation
https://www.facebook.com/lynxuktrust/posts/801653623217665:0

Lynx threat towards pets and other wildlife
https://www.facebook.com/lynxuktrust/posts/802868216429539:0

How and why they chose the location of the site
http://www.lynxuk.org/publications/lynxsiteselection.pdf


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> Much as I love the idea of seeing our wiped out indigenous species brought back, I think there are too many people now, many of them can barely cope with living in proximity with foxes, so it would probably not be in the best interest of the lynx.


Now there's an idea; we could get rid of the nonces by sticking them in the forest with the lynx! :Wacky


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

I noticed it is in Kielder forest which is the largest man made forest in England so i guess if the Lynx is the kind of animal that likes to stay away from humans he/she'd be ok, i'm not sure how "tracked" it is, been a lot of years since i've been but its pushing 250 square miles and most is forested. I'd say there would be plenty to eat in the forest.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I must say they are beautiful creatures, but what next? In the past we had wolves and bears. At the moment the only dangerous creature running wild in the UK is the adder.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Charity said:


> Whenever they introduce something new, it alters the structure of wildlife and generally gets out of control. Doing it "officially" doesn't make it right


 I know exactly what you mean, i protested about some land at the back of the beach they wanted to turn into wetland to help the wildlife, my question was what about the wildlife that lived there now (stoats, weasels, rabbits etc.) i never did get an answer. It wasn't like this was some horrible grotty wasteland it was a nice grassy/bushy area.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Do we not have a few wild cats, in Scotland at least?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ShibaPup said:


> Hunting isn't enough - deer populations are still out of control.
> 
> Lynx are efficient hunters, secretive and unlikely to leave their small territory. They live in forests - highly unlikely to travel out to open farmland to hunt, when there is plenty of deer available... there have been no reports of wild Lynx attacking humans, dogs or horses - they are typically avoided.
> 
> ...


Are you involved with the project in any way? I only ask because you seem to be knowledgeable on the side of going ahead.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

We have Lynx here. Quite a number of the ghost-like creatures and they've never been a problem. 

I actually saw one once, it filled the space of approximately one second as it jumped out of the undergrowth to take a bird and then was gone, leaving only a slight scattering of feathers to tell the world a bird had once been there.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

steveshanks said:


> Do we not have a few wild cats, in Scotland at least?


Scottish wildcat. Very small population.
http://www.scottishwildcats.co.uk/wildcat.html

Some people working on the conservation of the Scottish wildcat are also working on the Lynx reintroduction.



newfiesmum said:


> Are you involved with the project in any way? I only ask because you seem to be knowledgeable on the side of going ahead.


No. Just well researched - all the information is out there. Many questions already answered by experts and professionals in their field.

Very interesting video on how the reintroduction of wolves helped yellowstone national park


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Beavers have been successfully reintroduced after a trial release - just last year it was agreed they could stay.
http://www.scottishbeavers.org.uk/

http://scottishwildlifetrust.org.uk/news/beavers-back-for-good/

There are talks to reintroduce other species - including wolves
http://www.rewildingbritain.org.uk/

http://www.wolvesandhumans.org/wolves/wolf_reintroduction_to_scotland.htm


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> But in a few years we will be overpopulated with lynx instead. It's all very well to talk about culling the deer and sacrificing a few sheep, but I for one don't want to see those creature ripped to shreds.


To be fair the place wouldn't be over run with lynx. They control their population to coincide with how much prey - deer - there is. So we wouldn't be over run with them


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

You see i have a problem with humans controlling animal population, we should put things right so the animal population is controlled naturally not by men with guns. I sometimes thing the dictionary definition of Humans should be "Earth parasite, slowly extending there parasitic qualities to space"

Sorry for the OT


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

steveshanks said:


> Do we not have a few wild cats, in Scotland at least?





steveshanks said:


> You see i have a problem with humans controlling animal population, we should put things right so the animal population is controlled naturally not by men with guns. I sometimes thing the dictionary definition of Humans should be "Earth parasite, slowly extending there parasitic qualities to space"
> 
> Sorry for the OT


Go ahead; I agree with you. I am afraid that if they do this, they will end up being prey to some trigger happy idiot with a gun. I would love to see them and other wild creatures running around loose, but only if they are safe from humans.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

steveshanks said:


> You see i have a problem with humans controlling animal population, we should put things right so the animal population is controlled naturally not by men with guns. I sometimes thing the dictionary definition of Humans should be "Earth parasite, slowly extending there parasitic qualities to space"
> 
> Sorry for the OT


We are all 'Earthlings'

We just happened to be privileged with a higher intelligence (questionable in many respects) and, therefore, a position of superiority which we constantly abuse.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Zaros said:


> We are all 'Earthlings'


 True but we are not all the same.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Charity said:


> I don't think farmers are at all happy about it.
> .


Are the happy about anything, all animals have a right to exist, but farmers only want farm animals to live and kill everything else... foxes, badgers, birds of prey, ect..


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> It's all very well to talk about culling the deer and sacrificing a few sheep, but I for one don't want to see those creature ripped to shreds


I guess it wouldn't be fun to watch but is not wanting to see it a good reason? It's an honest question. Foxes aren't at all pleasant to watch when they kill but people don't mind that. Is it ok for one species but not another?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

steveshanks said:


> True but we are not all the same.


Very true... mankind are crueler, meaner and kill for the fun or because we don't like it or if it takes a few farm animals.

We are suppose to have a higher intelligence, now that's the funniest thing I've ever heard.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

havoc said:


> Foxes aren't at all pleasant to watch when they kill but people don't mind that. Is it ok for one species but not another?


 I have no problem with animals killing each other when its natural, i mean like an Eagle taking a mouse. I have a problem with humans killing for fun, for food i can deal with, but not for the fun of it.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

As much as I'd love to "see" (in quotes because in reality we would be extremely lucky to see one considering their habits) I think they would just be persecuted.
Any lost pet will be blamed on them, any lost farm animal would be blamed on them and many other excuses to start an open season on them


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Farmers have a right to be concerned about their livelihoods - however, I don't agree they are all blood thirsty and live to kill everything but livestock. There are farms active in wildlife conservation.

TBH pet dogs are a real issue - especially to sheep farmers. More so than Lynx ever could be IMO. The fear is Lynx being potentially blamed for the kill.

Really hope their application for the 5 year trial period gets accepted.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ShibaPup said:


> Farmers have a right to be concerned about their livelihoods - however, I don't agree they are all blood thirsty and live to kill everything but livestock. There are farms active in wildlife conservation.
> 
> TBH pet dogs are a real issue - especially to sheep farmers. More so than Lynx ever could be IMO. The fear is Lynx being potentially blamed for the kill.
> 
> Really hope their application for the 5 year trial period gets accepted.


But pet dogs should be under control. I know they are not always, but they should be. This is different altogether.


Zaros said:


> We are all 'Earthlings'
> 
> We just happened to be privileged with a higher intelligence (questionable in many respects) and, therefore, a position of superiority which we constantly abuse.


But do we really have higher intelligence? Just because we can talk and decide we are more important, doesn't make it so. When a Newfoundland dog heard a child crying, he jumped over his stable door, found the child and dug him out of a snowdrift. He got a medal for that; nobody told him to do it. Another Newfie was honoured during the war when a Japanese threw a grenade at the canadians; the dog leapt into action, picked up the grenade and ran it back to the Japanese. Guide dogs lead the blind about all over the place. I am not sure we do have high intelligence, to be honest. And while I know the guide dogs are trained to act as they do, humans are also trained throughout their lives and it takes a lot longer. You have livestock guardian, Colin. How intelligent is it for a dog to guard a flock of sheep, even against wolves and cheetahs?

Sorry, I get off on a rant when it comes to this subject.



havoc said:


> I guess it wouldn't be fun to watch but is not wanting to see it a good reason? It's an honest question. Foxes aren't at all pleasant to watch when they kill but people don't mind that. Is it ok for one species but not another?


People don't mind it because it is nature. If a human carries on like that because it is their nature, they are called serial killers. You can't really have it both way; either they are less intelligent or not.



StormyThai said:


> As much as I'd love to "see" (in quotes because in reality we would be extremely lucky to see one considering their habits) I think they would just be persecuted.
> Any lost pet will be blamed on them, any lost farm animal would be blamed on them and many other excuses to start an open season on them


This is my point - even if they didn't kill any domestic of farm animal, they would still be blamed.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> Are the happy about anything, all animals have a right to exist, but farmers only want farm animals to live and kill everything else... foxes, badgers, birds of prey, ect..


Umm, farmer here. Foxes dens on our farm, we enjoy watching them and have caught our only ever "problem" fox, a teenager in a really hard winter. Overwintered at a wildlife hospital ( where I volunteered before family meant life got busy).

Children and I spent a long time searching a thorny hedge to locate a grounded buzzard. Vet put on drip overnight and coaxed to eat as both starving and very dehydrated, then on to the same wildlife hospital next morning when stabilised a bit.

Badgers have only seen one on our farm, but cancelled our NFU membership over their stance on TB cull of badgers.

The reason I wouldn't like wild animals killing my lambs or making ewes abort is the same reason I wouldn't like a stray dog doing the same.

Down south, conditions aren't right. Northumberland, with tight controls and tracking to build a better picture then possibly. Maybe only castrated males could be released initially, the genie may not want to be put back in the lamp once released.

If farmers in that area are objecting, their specific concerns should be taken into account, rather than this ignorant attitude that they are only out for bottom line profit and don't care about wildlife. Who knows, they could even be recruited to help monitor the situation, they are up and out 24/7, 365, and pretty good at reading sign, listening to birds setting up a racket when they sense danger, knowing what has killed a half eaten carcass. Much better than ecologists, not knowing the local environment coming up a month or so at a time.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> Are the happy about anything, all animals have a right to exist, but farmers only want farm animals to live and kill everything else... foxes, badgers, birds of prey, ect..


Please don't tar all farmers with the same brush, not all want to kill everything else apart from the farmed animals. If you eat meat, drink milk or use animal products (thus not a vegan) then you are supporting farmers in some way.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> People don't mind it because it is nature. If a human carries on like that because it is their nature, they are called serial killers. You can't really have it both way; either they are less intelligent or not


I totally agree we shouldn't want it both ways so why are foxes ok and lynx not? Is it how we feel about the prey e.g. we're not that emotionally invested in chickens but we are in cute lambs?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

havoc said:


> I totally agree we shouldn't want it both ways so why are foxes ok and lynx not?


I'm not saying they are not ok. I just asked for opinions because I couldn't make up my mind whether it was a good thing or not. If I had my way, they would cull the humans who have shown themselves to be predators. 


Catharinem said:


> Umm, farmer here. Foxes dens on our farm, we enjoy watching them and have caught our only ever "problem" fox, a teenager in a really hard winter. Overwintered at a wildlife hospital ( where I volunteered before family meant life got busy).
> 
> Children and I spent a long time searching a thorny hedge to locate a grounded buzzard. Vet put on drip overnight and coaxed to eat as both starving and very dehydrated, then on to the same wildlife hospital next morning when stabilised a bit.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that post. I wish we still had the rep facility as this certainly deserves one.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> But do we really have higher intelligence? Just because we can talk and decide we are more important, doesn't make it so. When a Newfoundland dog heard a child crying, he jumped over his stable door, found the child and dug him out of a snowdrift. He got a medal for that; nobody told him to do it. Another Newfie was honoured during the war when a Japanese threw a grenade at the canadians; the dog leapt into action, picked up the grenade and ran it back to the Japanese. Guide dogs lead the blind about all over the place. I am not sure we do have high intelligence, to be honest. And while I know the guide dogs are trained to act as they do, humans are also trained throughout their lives and it takes a lot longer. You have livestock guardian, Colin. How intelligent is it for a dog to guard a flock of sheep, even against wolves and cheetahs?


I agree just because we can talk and walk on two legs and use our hands, doesn't make us more intelligent. I look my dog everyday a wonder just how much more intelligent they are to us.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I agree just because we can talk and walk on two legs and use our hands, doesn't make us more intelligent. I look my dog everyday a wonder just how much more intelligent they are to us.


Well, I'd say all my dogs have had me very well trained, so there is that!


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## KATZ1355 (May 30, 2016)

Planet of the Apes springs to mind!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

KATZ1355 said:


> Planet of the Apes springs to mind!


I haven't seen it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It doesn't benefit the Lynx in any way, in fact it's probably detrimentally to those shy elusive animals as they'll be hounded by "conservationists" and tourist alike


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## KATZ1355 (May 30, 2016)

Well, I have seen one of the latest and maybe you should too - basically sums up attitude to how we treat animals - simple as that!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rona said:


> It doesn't benefit the Lynx in any way, in fact it's probably detrimentally to those shy elusive animals as they'll be hounded by "conservationists" and tourist alike


Is it about benefitting the lynx or more about restoring a balance? On one hand I understand an attitude which says we can't turn a clock back and on the other I get that if we screw things up we should try to unscrew them.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> Are the happy about anything, all animals have a right to exist, but farmers only want farm animals to live and kill everything else... foxes, badgers, birds of prey, ect..


Having spent the majority of my life around farms and farmers, I can categorically say you are wrong


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

havoc said:


> Is it about benefitting the lynx or more about restoring a balance? On one hand I understand an attitude which says we can't turn a clock back and on the other I get that if we screw things up we should try to unscrew them.


I think it's too late, there's far too many people and only the animals will suffer....the Lynx, the deer and the sheep


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

steveshanks said:


> True but we are not all the same.


In so much as we look different because we are all different species?



newfiesmum said:


> But do we really have higher intelligence?
> Colin. How intelligent is it for a dog to guard a flock of sheep, even against wolves and cheetahs?
> .


I did say our 'intelligence' was questionable in many respects.

As for intelligence at any level, particularly intelligence shared between species, Oscar trusts that which I passed onto him regarding the world created by my kind, just as much as I trust his intelligence/instincts in the natural world he's more knowledgeable about. I know he's vulnerable to many things in my world and he knows I'm vulnerable to things in his. Together we keep each other safe from harm no matter where we might find ourselves wandering.

It deeply confounds me how he knows things that I am, and will always be, completely oblivious to.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

We have Lynx in the Aggletek National Park in Northern Hungary. They came from over the Slovakian border and took up residence sometime in 2012 after the Slovakian government banned Lynx hunting. Apparently the Golden Jackal has migrated as far as the Czech/Slovakian border and is expected to enter Hungary soon!

We also have some small packs of wolves one of which around 20 of them live in the Zemplen Hills about 25 miles from where I live. Apart from that foxes, deer, wild boar are fairly commonplace where I live and last summer we had a wild cat on the land behind my house. At first I thought it was Sashicat who's a tabby, but soon realised it was much too large .... more Gwylim's size. Needless to say we avoided going into that part of the land until I was absolutely certain it had moved on!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> We have Lynx in the Aggletek National Park in Northern Hungary. They came from over the Slovakian border and took up residence sometime in 2012 after the Slovakian government banned Lynx hunting. Apparently the Golden Jackal has migrated as far as the Czech/Slovakian border and is expected to enter Hungary soon!
> 
> We also have some small packs of wolves one of which around 20 of them live in the Zemplen Hills about 25 miles from where I live. Apart from that foxes, deer, wild boar are fairly commonplace where I live and last summer we had a wild cat on the land behind my house. At first I thought it was Sashicat who's a tabby, but soon realised it was much too large .... more Gwylim's size. Needless to say we avoided going into that part of the land until I was absolutely certain it had moved on!


Perhaps it's just me, but I find it really exciting to know we've such diverse wildlife right on our door step.
We have wolves too but, to date, I have only seen their paw prints in the snow and occasionally heard their song across the distance of the night.
Then there was a brief sighting of a bear that appeared more eager to find somewhere else in the forest to hide away from intruders.
The Moose, Reindeer and deer have become quite accustomed to our presence as we venture into their territory, yet they still regard us with caution from a distance.

And who would blame them.

They know I'm not to be trusted.

The Lynx, well, he's always there..... Somewhere.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Umm, farmer here. Foxes dens on our farm, we enjoy watching them and have caught our only ever "problem" fox, a teenager in a really hard winter. Overwintered at a wildlife hospital ( where I volunteered before family meant life got busy).
> 
> Children and I spent a long time searching a thorny hedge to locate a grounded buzzard. Vet put on drip overnight and coaxed to eat as both starving and very dehydrated, then on to the same wildlife hospital next morning when stabilised a bit.
> 
> ...


Catharinem, you are a breath of fresh air!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I think we should stop experimenting and trying to rearrange the balance of nature to suit us.

We invariably end up making things worse.

The plan appears to be that lynx will be introduced to one particular area, but then huge revenue will be accrued from tourists/visitors to the area, wanting to see the lynx.

Surely, high numbers of humans crashing through the forest, cameras at the ready, could drive the lynx out and onto neighbouring farmlands, which is exactly what the local farmers are afraid of.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sweety said:


> I think we should stop experimenting and trying to rearrange the balance of nature to suit us.
> 
> We invariably end up making things worse.
> 
> ...


Definitely agree with this. If they are going to make the Lynx completely independent apart from the tracking collars, they are going to have tourists. If they are going to do this, it should be done in a vast area of controlled land, something like the wildlife parks. Perhaps there are some dukes or marquesses left who haven't leased their land out yet.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Sweety said:


> The plan appears to be that lynx will be introduced to one particular area, but then huge revenue will be accrued from tourists/visitors to the area, wanting to see the lynx.


It does seem a strange choice if the main objective is to attract people wanting to see an animal.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, the individual they interviewed on the News this morning, who is very involved in this whole project, was trying to say it's a win, win situation.

The lynx will control deer numbers, whilst at the same time displaying themselves for the benefit of visitors to the area.

One Pub Landlord they interviewed said the area relies heavily on tourist trade and they expected the number of visitors to double, once the lynx are introduced.

Somebody seems to have overlooked the fact that lynx are shy and elusive creatures.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Funny, because we have them in Poland, most elusive critters, tree dwellers and nocturnal hunters, shy from people.
Never heard of any attacks on humans, even historical.
They do avoid us.

Not really going to farms, prefer forest. Unless you have sheep in the meadow right next to it ...
Sheepdogs usually keep them away.
People do not fear them like bears or wolves.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Sweety said:


> The lynx will control deer numbers,* whilst at the same time displaying themselves for the benefit of visitors* to the area.


Well that's made me smile. I have a vision of them under contract for organised photo opportunities - once daily and twice on Sundays


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Id much rather they introduced Lynx to control the over population of deer, which, now have no natural predators ( humans excluded), and are in danger of actually triggering, in some places, a population decline due to lack of natural food available
The Lynx may/will also do something to control the explosion of Muntjac that out compete or native deer species anyway
Those who leave their little dogs out over night and/or their cats may put them in danger, but during the day, not so likely, even if offlead, Livestock? well theres some that would say livestock shouldnt be there anyway, but again, dogs are more likely to scare them off

How do people think that those farmers in countries where Lynx are still part of the normal daily life fare?
Lets face it, its lynx, and its only being mooted at the moment, Theyre not talking about a releasing lions and Tigers and Bears...oh no!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

You don't think that having Lynx and yet more people in the forests won't push the deer out to the surrounding areas?

We have a large forest here that used to support very large herds of Fallow deer, over the last 20 years it's been taken over by dog walkers and mountain bikers and the deer can now be seen in the smaller woods and quiet fields on the perimeter. 
Once the deer move out, the lynx will have to follow


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> How do people think that those farmers in countries where Lynx are still part of the normal daily life fare?


Because they have much more land mass and the lynx isn't being used as a tourist attraction


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lynx are so shy & secretive that they are seldom seen & have never been known to harm anyone. The sixth mass extinction is under way, its the moral duty of countries to make room for wildlife & do everything we possibly can to help species which once roamed there. Our uplands are vast & sparsely populated - we could rewild them.

Sadly my greatest fear though is, that like all our other predators, the lynx would be persecuted by farmers, landowners & shooting interests.

Anyone excited about the prospect of the Lynx introduction to Kielder shouldn't build their hopes up - https://petecooperwildlife.com/2017...ivores-and-alienate-people-a-word-of-caution/

.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Because they have much more land mass and the lynx isn't being used as a tourist attraction


We have vast tracts of land we could make suitable for lynx - tourists would be _extremely _lucky to see a lynx lol


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sweety said:


> Well, the individual they interviewed on the News this morning, who is very involved in this whole project, was trying to say it's a win, win situation.
> 
> The lynx will control deer numbers, whilst at the same time displaying themselves for the benefit of visitors to the area.
> 
> ...


Just knowing lynx were somewhere out there would be good enough for people like me. It would be magical.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sweety said:


> I think we should stop experimenting and trying to rearrange the balance of nature to suit us.
> 
> We invariably end up making things worse.
> 
> ...


By wiping out all of our terrestrial apex predators humans rearranged the balance of nature to suit them - bringing them back is just righting a terrible wrong.

To have a fully functioning dynamic ecosystem you need apex predators, with them you get trophic cascades


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Perhaps it's just me, but I find it really exciting to know we've such diverse wildlife right on our door step.
> We have wolves too but, to date, I have only seen their paw prints in the snow and occasionally heard their song across the distance of the night.
> Then there was a brief sighting of a bear that appeared more eager to find somewhere else in the forest to hide away from intruders.
> The Moose, Reindeer and deer have become quite accustomed to our presence as we venture into their territory, yet they still regard us with caution from a distance.
> ...


It must be the best feeling in the world knowing that rare & wonderful creatures are still out there & you might catch a glimpse of something so special & elusive


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> Because they have much more land mass and the lynx isn't being used as a tourist attraction


I'm all for preserving wildlife and the habitat but once a species has gone from an area, especially for many years, I think it is a whole different ball game and fraught with complications. Unfortunately, it always seems to be the animals that suffer.

I just think sadly, that ship has sailed for the Lynx in the UK.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> I'm all for preserving wildlife and the habitat but once a species has gone from an area, especially for many years, I think it is a whole different ball game and fraught with complications. Unfortunately, it always seems to be the animals that suffer.
> 
> I just think sadly, that ship has sailed for the Lynx in the UK.


Maybe Trees For Life could change your mind? Take a look at this LL  http://treesforlife.org.uk/forest/missing-species-rewilding/the-lynx/ http://treesforlife.org.uk/


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

In an ideal World all the native species would co-exist happily alongside (at a distance for predators ) with humans (and we could do with less humans on the planet overall ).

However, we don't live in an ideal World, sadly


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> In an ideal World all the native species would co-exist happily alongside (at a distance for predators ) with humans (and we could do with less humans on the planet overall ).
> 
> However, we don't live in an ideal World, sadly


I know we don't, my own species makes me so ashamed, but we expect people in other countries to live alongside far more dangerous animals than lynx. I believe its time this country did its bit to help disappearing wildlife.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> I know we don't, my own species makes me so ashamed, but we expect people in other countries to live alongside far more dangerous animals than lynx. I believe its time this country did its bit to help disappearing wildlife.


The difference is the animals are still there.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lurcherlad said:


> The difference is the animals are still there.


Many countries are reintroducing species they wiped out - many countries in Europe have reintroduced the lynx (Lynx reintroductions have been carried out in France, Germany, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Poland and the Czech Republic). I just don't understand why we should be different when we have the habitat & the space to do the same.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> People do not fear them like bears or wolves.





noushka05 said:


> It must be the best feeling in the world knowing that rare & wonderful creatures are still out there & you might catch a glimpse of something so special & elusive


Every day is an adventure Noush'.

To be honest, and I know this might seem awful, but I tend to see far more when there's just me and the Oz out together or Zara's way behind or way in front, because he's not as highly strung as she is.

But that's just the way she is. That's her nature and there's no changing it.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> I know we don't, my own species makes me so ashamed, but we expect people in other countries to live alongside far more dangerous animals than lynx. I believe its time this country did its bit to help disappearing wildlife.


The wolf and the bear will always be a bone of contention here Noush'

Those who value and appreciate the natural wildlife are forever stalked by the shadows of others who just want to hunt it down either for sport, or to cull their numbers, whilst reindeer herders are allowed to over populate their herds which become a danger and a nuisance to road users most of the year round.

Don't get me wrong, as a car driver, I love to see them roaming along and always reduce my speed by 20kph in areas where they are most likely seen in large numbers.
Therefore, should I need to brake quickly, I stand more of a chance coming to a full stop without hitting one of them.
Unfortunately other road users don't observe the same considerations.
Whatever car is or might be travelling behind, is more likely to plough into the back of me because of negligence.
Reindeer herders are always fully compensated for their losses.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Many countries are reintroducing species they wiped out - many countries in Europe have reintroduced the lynx (Lynx reintroductions have been carried out in France, Germany, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Poland and the Czech Republic). I just don't understand why we should be different when we have the habitat & the space to do the same.


The Lynx wasn't reintroduced in Hungary! It just arrived from Slovakia in 2012. The same with the wolves in both the Aggletek and Zemplen hills who migrated to those areas without human assistance. Obviously being an island unless it's a species that can swim or fly to be reintroduced into the UK it will need human intervention.

There are several thousand bear in Romania and about 800 in Slovakia both countries that have boundaries with Hungary and it's anticipated by wildlife experts that at some point in the near future a few will cross the border into Hungary.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> There are several thousand bear in Romania and about 800 in Slovakia both countries have boundaries with Hungary and it's anticipated by wildlife experts that at some point in the near future a few will cross the border into Hungary.


Hung(a)ry bears!

Ain't that always the case.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

I saw a puma just last year. It was about ten to twelve feet away and came out of long grass. My first thought was "that's a bloody big cat" followed by "that's not a cat it's a fox" followed by "that ain't not fox it's a puma" then I realised the thing was stalking the sprocker I was walking. Quick bit of shouting to the dog to get him back and the puma looked me straight in the eye and calmly turned round and walked away. It's actually quite disconcerting to be so close to a cat that size, and if I had been much further away it would have made lunch of the sprocker. I'm not really sure having more wild big cats is ideal.

Oh, and no I didn't take a photo, it's the last thing you think of at the time, more interested in getting the dog safe. Saying that I did have camera at the ready on the way back just in case, also had the dog on the lead!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> The wolf and the bear will always be a bone of contention here Noush'
> 
> Those who value and appreciate the natural wildlife are forever stalked by the shadows of others who just want to hunt it down either for sport, or to cull their numbers, whilst reindeer herders are allowed to over populate their herds which become a danger and a nuisance to road users most of the year round.
> 
> ...


Yes they will, even though you are far more likely to be killed by domestic cattle than either of these species & livestock far more likely to be attacked by domestic dogs. The human species is intolerant & all to often cruel to wild predators - its so sad that we are incapable of sharing this planet with our fellow earthlings 

Never a truer word spoken than your next sentence. I fear those who treasure wildlife for its intrinsic value are fighting a losing battle against those who enjoy killing animals for sport & kill animals to protect vested interests. We must never give up the battle.

There's no common sense is there? predators do the best job controlling prey species - we need them in our ecosystems.



Magyarmum said:


> The Lynx wasn't reintroduced in Hungary! It just arrived from Slovakia in 2012. The same with the wolves in both the Aggletek and Zemplen hills who migrated to those areas without human assistance. Obviously being an island unless it's a species that can swim or fly to be reintroduced into the UK it will need human intervention.
> 
> There are several thousand bear in Romania and about 800 in Slovakia both countries that have boundaries with Hungary and it's anticipated by wildlife experts that at some point in the near future a few will cross the border into Hungary.


I didn't say the lynx was reintroduced to Hungary. Of course species will rewild without intervention given the chance & the habitat. I hope missing species do spread across the European continent, but even on the continent, sometimes wildlife needs a helping hand. The European bison for example, was wiped out in the wild, but thanks to the likes of the fantastic Aspinall Foundation the wisent has now been successfully reintroduced to Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Ukraine & a few other countries.



Dr Pepper said:


> I saw a puma just last year. It was about ten to twelve feet away and came out of long grass. My first thought was "that's a bloody big cat" followed by "that's not a cat it's a fox" followed by "that ain't not fox it's a puma" then I realised the thing was stalking the sprocker I was walking. Quick bit of shouting to the dog to get him back and the puma looked me straight in the eye and calmly turned round and walked away. It's actually quite disconcerting to be so close to a cat that size, and if I had been much further away it would have made lunch of the sprocker. I'm not really sure having more wild big cats is ideal.
> 
> Oh, and no I didn't take a photo, it's the last thing you think of at the time, more interested in getting the dog safe. Saying that I did have camera at the ready on the way back just in case, also had the dog on the lead!


I thought you lived in the UK?


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> .
> I didn't say the lynx was reintroduced to Hungary. Of course species will rewild without intervention given the chance & the habitat. I hope missing species do spread across the European continent, but even on the continent, sometimes wildlife needs a helping hand. The European bison for example, was wiped out in the wild, but thanks to the likes of the fantastic Aspinall Foundation the wisent has now been successfully reintroduced to Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Ukraine & a few other countries.
> 
> I never said you did???????


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

@Margyarmum Okay, apologies if I caused any offence, I never intended to.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> .*There's no common sense is there*? predators do the best job controlling prey species - we need them in our ecosystems.


Yet, everyday, there are those who step forward believing they have been endowed with more than their fair share of it.

We can only hope that the natural world survives the rigours of the human race, and not find, instead, the images of creatures that used to inhabit and roam pre-human areas on post cards, souvenir teaspoons, and key rings.

The death of Sol appears more significant today than its fiction was all those years ago.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> I thought you lived in the UK?


I do, which is why it was a surprise.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> @Margyarmum Okay, apologies if I caused any offence, I never intended to.


No problem! Never entered my head to be offended.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

This is how I see UK conversations future. Farming, wildlife and tourism in one

https://www.rewildingeurope.com/project/knepp-wildland/

Just stop trying to manage and leave it as much as possible to the animals.

Love this place and spend hours and hours here disappearing into the 3500 acres of bliss


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

This isn't nature or natural
http://www.environmentalhistories.net/?p=657

" creating one of the largest man-made forests in Western Europe. During the 1970s a large dam and reservoir were constructed at Kielder in order to create a secure water supply for the industries at Teeside. As a result Kielder has witnessed significant and dramatic environmental changes over the course of the twentieth century, as it was transformed from a pastoral agricultural landscape, to that of a commercial forest and finally it received the addition of a large man-made lake."


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Sweety said:


> One Pub Landlord they interviewed said the area relies heavily on tourist trade and they expected the number of visitors to double, once the lynx are introduced.
> 
> Somebody seems to have overlooked the fact that lynx are shy and elusive creatures.


Bit like Nessie then. 

You can bet there will be a few "sightings" miles away whilst they are still in their transport boxes. ￼￼￼￼￼ ￼


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Every day is an adventure Noush'.
> 
> To be honest, and I know this might seem awful, but I tend to see far more when there's just me and the Oz out together or Zara's way behind or way in front, because he's not as highly strung as she is.
> 
> But that's just the way she is. That's her nature and there's no changing it.


I dont know how I missed this post t'uther day!

Gosh I bet it is. This is why I yearn for remote parts of our country to be rewilded. I wouldn't care if I never saw a lynx, (or a wolf) it would still be a thrill just knowing they were out there somewhere living their wild lives. I've never seen the beavers, or even a badger alive in the wild either. Not seeing them doesn't stop me caring about them or wanting them here. I still find it exciting that I could possibly catch a glimpse one day when we're in badger territory, but if I never do I dont mind .

Zara cant be as bad as my pair of clowns! These two go berserk if they see a flippin squirrel  They'd drag me up the tree after it if they could lol



Zaros said:


> Yet, everyday, there are those who step forward believing they have been endowed with more than their fair share of it.
> 
> We can only hope that the natural world survives the rigours of the human race, and not find, instead, the images of creatures that used to inhabit and roam pre-human areas on post cards, souvenir teaspoons, and key rings.
> 
> The death of Sol appears more significant today than its fiction was all those years ago.


Their greed is insatiable Zaros

We're entering the sixth mass extinction so its possible many animals could disappear in our lifetimes -maybe the greedy will only realise their true value when they've gone. What they don't seem to realise is that *we *depend on the natural world for our survival too.

( who or what is Sol Zaros?  )

.



rona said:


> This is how I see UK conversations future. Farming, wildlife and tourism in one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Leaving it as much as possible to the animals (to nature) is exactly what rewilding is all about, Rona 

( I cant see the video so am curious as I'm really surprised you say you support wildlife tourism when you generally don't & you use to be an advocate of land & wildlife management in our many debates).



Dr Pepper said:


> I do, which is why it was a surprise.


Then I'm afraid have a very serious case of 'beast fever', Dr Pepper There's only one cure for this - George Monbiot's marvellous book 'Feral'.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> who or what is Sol Zaros?


Sol Roth was a professor who was cursed with wisdom and compassion in a world where he was forced to witness society collapse and mankind fall into desperate terminal decay.
The atmosphere is heavily polluted, the earth is overpopulated and can no longer be sustained, animal/wildlife has all but gone, and the oceans are dying.
Sol uncovered a terrible secret regarding how the human race was being nourished and sustained.
Unable to live with this realisation, he chooses to be euthanised at a government run clinic. This process is referred to as_ 'Going Home'_
As Sol lays dying he is treated to 360 video footage of the earth as it used to be long ago, when animal and plant life thrived, the oceans teemed with life and there was no pollution.

Soylent Green is a 1973 sci-fi.

The Soylent Green corporation processes people.

Interestingly enough, Sol's discovery of the existence of Soylent corporation survey reports were dated 2015 - 2019.

Something to think about? :Nailbiting


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*Charity* said,

_... I know there is an over population of deer in certain areas, but I would rather they were humanely shot, mainly to avoid starvation in the winter, than *torn to pieces* by a wild cat.

______________
.
.
That's a considerable exaggeration  - the 'tearing apart' bit comes after prey are dead, just as we "tear apart" a chicken breast with a knife & fork on our plates, or "tear apart" a BBQ'ed rib by gnawing on it.
At that point, the animal neither knows nor cares.

Lynx only weigh 30 to 40#, & an adult whitetail in the USA is way, way too big for a 35# cat; cougar are deer specialists who stretch to wild sheep, goats, etc, in mountain terrain, but they weigh over 100#. // Lynx, like fox, will take fawns when they can - but young fawns are virtually scentless & lie motionless when alone, as Mum goes to graze.
Older fawns quickly outgrow a lynx' prey-size, & besides, they are very speedy. // Lynx here are mid-level predators, & rabbits are favorite prey. Snowshoe hares & Canadian lynx are paired - bobcats are generalists, & will eat whatever's on offer, but the larger lynxs' popn rises & falls with the varying hares' boom & bust popn changes.

There's a narrow window when fawns are just the right size, they're no longer immobile when Mom's gone, & just slow-enuf to be caught - but that's a few weeks; after that any healthy fawn can give a lynx a good run & show a clean pair of heels as they take off.

Eagles are more-likely to take newborn fawns in high country, where they are more exposed; lush lowland growth gives the fawns too much cover.
Sadly, when over-popn is serious, starvation is the most-efficient killer, as it takes deer wholesale, & the young of the year [born that past Spring] die 1st - their surface-to-volume ratio is too high, they need more calories per pound than the heavier adults to maintain their core temps, & so die sooner - either of hypothermia or outright starvation.
A deer can starve with a full belly if previous starvation killed-off too many of their friendly flora - without enuf digestive microbes, they can't digest & absorb their food properly.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*Lurcherlad* said,

_I'm all for preserving wildlife and the habitat but once a species has gone from an area, especially for many years, I think it is a whole different ball game and fraught with complications. Unfortunately, it always seems to be the animals that suffer.

I just think sadly, that ship has sailed for the Lynx in the UK.
________________________________
.
.
It wasn't that long ago in the U-S that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian", & predators were just as despised --- any wolf, puma, bear, & any other predator that just might eat a calf, take a chicken, or even eat the corpse of a lamb *who'd frozen to death*, was shot on sight or poisoned with bait-laced carcasses [which of course, killed everything - vultures, rodents, carrion beetles...].
At one point, 17 different species of hawks were casually referred to as "chicken hawks" across the 48-states, including species who take songbirds [Sharpshin] & mammal specialists who love rabbits as meals [Redtail]. // Guess what? - we need predators, large, medium, & small, for ecosystems to function, & deer are hooved rats who eat over 400 species of trees, shrubs, grasses, forbs, fungi, fruits, seeds, nuts, bark, mosses, herbs, succulents, _______ .
Deer will eat birdseed, lawn grasses, ear corn, all grains, flowering annuals, perennials, orchard tree barks [killing the trees], peanuts in the ground, peanut BLOSSOMS which prevents the plant setting seed / nuts, fruit blossoms [ditto], tomato plants roots & all,... U name it, they eat it.

Over large swaths of Pennsy, a VERY LARGE state, square miles have no red-oak trees younger than 60-YO - deer eat every acorn that sprouts, & no saplings survive. The red oaks will not be replaced unless deer-proof fences are installed around protected small sections to allow red-oak saplings to reach 15 to 20-YO, when the deer cannot kill them outright - but only prune them.
Red oaks could be extinct locally entirely due to the depredations of whitetail deer.

Meanwhile, today, beef ranchers in the West who overgraze Federal land at 1/3 the price of grazing rights per acre on private land, are still whining that their great-grandaddy killed off all the wolves hereabouts, & *why in H*** are we bringing them back?!?!?!*...
'Cuz great-grandaddy also thought that throwing the 20-YO Model-T into a ravine was a perfectly acceptable way to get rid of an old car, & his son when he grew-up thot that dumping a 20-YO refrigerator into the same ravine was a fine way to get rid of a dead appliance - Freon & all.
The rusting hulk of an old car, leaking antifreeze & oils, is not a benefit to the local ecosystem - nor is a dead refrigerator, particularly to the atmosphere -- while a live predator, with wings, four legs, scales, fins, whatever, is a definite plus for the ecosystem.
.
.
.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Sol Roth was a professor who was cursed with wisdom and compassion in a world where he was forced to witness society collapse and mankind fall into desperate terminal decay.
> The atmosphere is heavily polluted, the earth is overpopulated and can no longer be sustained, animal/wildlife has all but gone, and the oceans are dying.
> Sol uncovered a terrible secret regarding how the human race was being nourished and sustained.
> Unable to live with this realisation, he chooses to be euthanised at a government run clinic. This process is referred to as_ 'Going Home'_
> ...


Ahh thank you. Its chilled me to the bone reading your summery of Sol's last moments - & OMG those dates!:Jawdrop Obviously I have heard of Soylent Green & knew it was about eating humans but not much more than that.

Our life support system is collapsing before our eyes & yet it isn't a priority to many people. Heck! it isn't even on many's radar.

I posted the article below on the forum the other day (The Uninhabitable Earth )

Here Caroline Lucas retweets it.

Caroline Lucas Retweeted Ellie Mae O'Hagan

_And having read it, please please please take action - personally & politically. 
Governments need to know people are up for radical change_
https://twitter.com/misselliemae/status/885846892466384897…

*Ellie Mae O'Hagan*‏Verified [email protected]*MissEllieMae* Jul 14

_If you only ever read one article for the rest of your life, make it this http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html_
_
._


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Ahh thank you. Its chilled me to the bone reading your summery of Sol's last moments - & OMG those dates!:Jawdrop Obviously I have heard of Soylent Green & knew it was about eating humans but not much more than that.
> 
> Our life support system is collapsing before our eyes & yet it isn't a priority to many people. Heck! it isn't even on many's radar.
> 
> ...


It's only today that matters because we might not be here tomorrow.

I've been saying for long enough, we've had our time Noush', but you just get sneered at and ridiculed. Folks think you're a crackpot and claim the earth experiences natural cycles, even dismissing the astute observations of those who rely on the nature for their survival, just as generations of their people have. (Those Reindeer herders I spoke of earlier.)

Like the delinquent children we have been, and still are, we've been allowed to play around with our incubator for so long it's now severely malfunctioning and there's no one around to repair it.

Only a scant few appear to realise this but, like me and, in all probability, you too, they're all condemned as crackpots.:Wacky


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> It's only today that matters because we might not be here tomorrow.
> 
> I've been saying for long enough, we've had our time Noush', but you just get sneered at and ridiculed. Folks think you're a crackpot and claim the earth experiences natural cycles, even dismissing the astute observations of those who rely on the nature for their survival, just as generations of their people have. (Those Reindeer herders I spoke of earlier.)
> 
> ...


We are led by the least amongst us as they say. These people see the natural world ONLY as units of resource, they can only be psychopaths - yet for reasons I cant fathom masses of people vote them in power even though they are destroying our very life support system - the only one we have!. But gosh yes, like yourself, I'm the one condemned as the crack pot. Its plain what some think of me on here with some of the replys to my posts - but that's nothing to what I've had on twitter, you can show them hard facts & they still say you're nuts lol


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> This is how I see UK conversations future. Farming, wildlife and tourism in one
> 
> https://www.rewildingeurope.com/project/knepp-wildland/
> 
> ...


Just noticed you've now put a link on to the fantastic Knepp Estate . You're probably not aware then, that, Charlie Burrell who owns Knepp is the Chair of Rewilding Britain? - the organisation inspired by George Monbiot's book, Feral 

Charlie too believes we should reintroduce missing species such as the Lynx.

http://www.rewildingbritain.org.uk/about/our-people

Rewilding is all about people believing that we can take a better approach to nature

Rewilding Britain only exists because people wanted us to. We began as an idea in 2013 following the publication of George Monbiot's book, Feral. Inspired by those pioneering rewilding in Britain, Feral brought rewilding to a wider audience. It prompted discussion, controversy and excitement among conservationists, land managers and the general public.

People started getting in touch with George telling him there was a need for a new organisation to push rewilding in Britain. This prompted consultation among a wide range of people and organisations. Two years and a lot of hard work later, Rewilding Britain was born.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> We are led by the least amongst us as they say. These people see the natural world ONLY as units of resource, they can only be psychopaths - yet for reasons I cant fathom masses of people vote them in power even though they are destroying our very life support system - the only one we have!. But gosh yes, like yourself, I'm the one condemned as the crack pot. Its plain what some think of me on here with some of the replys to my posts - but that's nothing to what I've had on twitter, you can show them hard facts & they still say you're nuts lol


Insults and offensive comments say more about them than they actually do about you, Noush'.

These folks who turn a blind eye to what's taking place about them and yet blindly give their support to the real crackpots are nothing but accomplices.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Zaros said:


> Soylent Green is a 1973 sci-fi.


 Love that movie and the points it makes, shocked at the dates though.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

steveshanks said:


> Love that movie and the points it makes, shocked at the dates though.


Indeed. The dates my not be accurate, but we'll get there.

Sooner or later.:Nailbiting


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Another movie that is not so great but so so relevant to the world today is "Idiocracy"


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Insults and offensive comments say more about them than they actually do about you, Noush'.
> 
> These folks who turn a blind eye to what's taking place about them and yet blindly give their support to the real crackpots are nothing but accomplices.


Very true x



steveshanks said:


> Another movie that is not so great but so so relevant to the world today is "Idiocracy"


I've just heard about this movie. Another is The Age of Stupid about global warming, starring the late Pete Postlethwait.

I'm thinking this movie may actually be a prophecy.

_"Why didn't we save ourselves when we had the chance?" _


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> I've just heard about this movie. Another is The Age of Stupid about global warming, starring the late Pete Postlethwait.
> 
> I'm thinking this movie may actually be a prophecy.
> 
> _"Why didn't we save ourselves when we had the chance?" _


I've watched the age of stupid, Noush' it's slightly flawed in a couple of places, but the message is still there and very strong.

The actions of a minority and the inactions of the majority makes us all collectively guilty and responsible for this planet's destruction.

It's all been about power and profit and all at the expense of this earth and the fragile life it now struggles to sustain.

TING-a-LING!...

RIP Pete.

I had no idea he had passed on.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

@Zaros I completely agree with you on everything (as per) . The movie give a chilling insight into our not too distant future & that is solely because whole mass of people support & defend governments who represent corporate interests that are trashing the living planet for profit. (it was very sad about Pete Postlethwaite. He seemed a very nice man & a great actor)

Ecosystems are collapsing yet the msm are virtually silent about it - we are sleepwalking towards disaster.

Of course non of these stories are newsworthy. (thank god for papers like the Guardian!)

2017 will be the hottest year on record without an El Nino. Its freaking climate scientists out.https://thinkprogress.org/no-el-nino-still-hot-39162a5cc5bc










African Wild dogs are dying out because its too hot to hunt - http://www.climatecentral.org/news/...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

As climate changes, ongoing drought bringing centuries-old herding cultures to an end in Kenya. Theres simply no grass - http://www.npr.org/sections/paralle...ders-find-centuries-old-way-of-life-in-danger

Years ago I watched an Horizon documentary of what would happen if the permafrost thawed. The scientists warned then to act on climate change or the thawing Tundra would lead to runaway climate change.


*All hell breaks loose as the Tundra thaws *https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/20/hell-breaks-loose-tundra-thaws-weatherwatch


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> @Zaros I completely agree with you on everything (as per) . The movie give a chilling insight into our not too distant future & that is solely because whole mass of people support & defend governments who represent corporate interests that are trashing the living planet for profit. (it was very sad about Pete Postlethwaite. He seemed a very nice man & a great actor)
> 
> Ecosystems are collapsing yet the msm are virtually silent about it - we are sleepwalking towards disaster.
> 
> ...


I've been listening to the natives here, Noush', (locals to the MIL) how they have already experienced the changing climate. Winters are not as cold as they were, there's less snow and more sleet/rain which then freezes to form a sheet of iron hard ice over the ground, making it impossible for the wildlife to get at the vegetation beneath.
Summers are much warmer, the swamps are drying out and the wild berries that rely on the environment are no longer grow in abundance.

In the area in which he we live, the deforestation has been horrendous. The timber merchants indefatigable machines have left giant swathes of ugly wilderness and the natural brooks, of which there were many, have all but dried.
500 metres beyond the land we own, stands a barren stretch of land that only a few weeks ago was a lush green forest with a real babbling brook.
It now resembles a place torn apart by the ravages of war, scarred by giant tyre and caterpillar tracks and deep craters where tree roots were ripped from the ground.
We'll be glad to see the back of the industrialists but we will miss the surrounding forests.
Oscar's Kingdom is slowly vanishing, and you can see the look of complete bewilderment when he wanders into once familiar areas where trees grew just a few days before.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> I've been listening to the natives here, Noush', (locals to the MIL) how they have already experienced the changing climate. Winters are not as cold as they were, there's less snow and more sleet/rain which then freezes to form a sheet of iron hard ice over the ground, making it impossible for the wildlife to get at the vegetation beneath.
> Summers are much warmer, the swamps are drying out and the wild berries that rely on the environment are no longer grow in abundance.
> 
> In the area in which he we live, the deforestation has been horrendous. The timber merchants indefatigable machines have left giant swathes of ugly wilderness and the natural brooks, of which there were many, have all but dried.
> ...


The earth isn't dying its being murdered. It must be utterly heart breaking to see the wilderness you love destroyed before your very eyes, I'm so sorry


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Utterly insane.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Just looking at the uk and rewilding. We're covering the land in concrete, building affordable homes for the poor and homeless people and more houses for the better off and the entrepreneurs. New office buildings and factories for fledgling and expanding companies. Plus the roads and infrastructure to accommodate them. The more the merrier. Good for the economy.

In my area alone. Just down the road, 2000 houses being built on fields and marshes. A few hundred yards the other direction a park and ride. They already built 500 3 story houses. I have 18 months to move my horse again, then they're building on the farm where she is too. Another one. We have to though. We can't save the environment and accommodate more people. Especially when houses have to be pretty and take up more space and tower blocks are so out of favour.

That's trees and plants and grassland and wildlife and a 200 year old orchard all making way for yet more people. I moved into a village surrounded by countryside, used to cycle and walk my dog. It's now being swallowed up by the ever expanding city. It already happened for miles the other side of the city. Steadily encroaching on the countryside. It's the same everywhere. More and more people and they're having more and more children and living longer and longer. We're just too successful.

Fewer of us is the only real way to save the uk and the planet. Having no, or fewer children is a greater contribution to the environment than switching off lights, buying an electric car, or the political party you vote for. I have my death planned out. So long as I'm mentally sound when I'm ready to go physically. 

''Tis the only way.

Sadly people like Rees-Mogg can't see it. They think money and religion exempts them from the obvious. For the uk, we can't have new forests and rewilding, if we keep accepting new people and new businesses, on top of accommodating what we already have and their children and children's children.

Looking at the bigger, world picture it's even worse. The better we get at curing, or preventing disease and the fewer wars, the more people. Because of wars, famine and disease, religion and custom promotes more children. We are suffocating the planet and all the voting and technology won't save it. Rees-Mogg thinks it will, but for myself I very much doubt it. The planet will save itself when we've made it uninhabitable for humans. Unless we reduce the population and we can't even get it to slow down. might slow down the destruction of the Uk, but for the planet the best pill for big pharma to work on, is an anti broody pill and for science to research better contraception.


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

No, I don't think Lynx or Wolves a good idea to release back in the wild here. We don't have enough large wild places left to support that type of predators.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> Just looking at the uk and rewilding. We're covering the land in concrete, building affordable homes for the poor and homeless people and more houses for the better off and the entrepreneurs. New office buildings and factories for fledgling and expanding companies. Plus the roads and infrastructure to accommodate them. The more the merrier. Good for the economy.
> 
> In my area alone. Just down the road, 2000 houses being built on fields and marshes. A few hundred yards the other direction a park and ride. They already built 500 3 story houses. I have 18 months to move my horse again, then they're building on the farm where she is too. Another one. We have to though. We can't save the environment and accommodate more people. Especially when houses have to be pretty and take up more space and tower blocks are so out of favour.
> 
> ...





Valanita said:


> No, I don't think Lynx or Wolves a good idea to release back in the wild here. We don't have enough large wild places left to support that type of predators.


Experts have conducted studies & concluded we do have the space & the habitat to support viable populations of lynx - even the wolf 

Have a look at Trees for life & Rewilding Britain.

https://treesforlife.org.uk/forest/missing-species-rewilding/
http://www.rewildingbritain.org.uk/


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2017)

I think the UK would benefit tremendously from re-introducing some native predators. I actually think it's very sad that there are so few real predators in the country, it makes for an entirely different culture and relationship with Mother Nature IMO. 

Knowing that there are animals out there more powerful than you, that there are forces you don't have control over is humbling. And we humans could stand more humbling from time to time.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't know many people who dislike David Attenborough or, for that matter, anyone who doesn't respect what he has to say. I've often seen text on these very boards praising both him and his work.

But, it would appear, his once cherished words have become dulled with time.

In the report entitled, 'State Of Nature' dated 2013, he says; _"Far more species are declining than increasing in the UK, including many of our most treasured. Alarmingly, a large number of them are threatened with extinction."
_
I believe David is all for rewilding Britain and sees many benefits from doing so.

I wonder where the voices of those who were prompt to extol his virtues are now?


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## Mr.YogiBear (Aug 10, 2017)

Where would they be importing the lynxes(?) from? Because if they would be from,say, Siberia, some wouldn't be able to adapt to a new climate, even as young cubs. The old U.K.- native lynx have died out. The remaining lynx are a different sub-species, almost aren't they??

I would like to see lynx in the uk, but just because we can, doesn't mean we should. They died out before, partly down to humans, won't they just die out again now there's more?


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

I can't see farmers with livestock being happy about wild Lynx in the countryside again, or wolves come to think of it. OK if they stuck to catching wild deer, but farm animals are so much easier to hunt, as foxes know already.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/environment/save-rewilding-wolves-says-sir-david-attenborough/

"Sir David Attenborough has spoken out against plans to reintroduce extinct species like wolves to the British landscape, saying there's enough to be done keeping the surviving wildlife alive and well."

"We have got a hell of a lot of problems even keeping alive what is already surviving here," he told BBC Focus magazine. "Admittedly, putting beavers back [in the wild] seems relatively innocuous. But I just feel we've got enough on our plate as it is." Nor does Sir David believe that the human species should introduce itself to other planets, arguing that it has already done enough damage to Earth."

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...d-attenborough-giant-dinosaur-video-interview
Out of his own mouth in this one.

I think he's someone very special and I agree with virtually everything this man says unlike most of the other "conservationists"

He like me believes it should be in the best interest of the animal, not as many are doing, to enhance tourism


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Valanita said:


> I can't see farmers with livestock being happy about wild Lynx in the countryside again, or wolves come to think of it. OK if they stuck to catching wild deer, but farm animals are so much easier to hunt, as foxes know already.


Farmers in other countries have learned to appreciate & share their land with predators far more dangerous than foxes or lynx. If only we had more progressive farmers like these. What a fantastic ethos. - http://www.predatorfriendly.org/about/index.html

*Predator Friendly®- Because Wildlife Matters*_ Predator Friendly® grew out of a conversation between a sheep rancher and a conservationist. Each recognized the keystone role of native predators and farms to conservation. Why not let consumers know about farms practicing wildlife stewardship? _

_In 1991, a coalition of ranchers, conservationists and clothing manufacturers began to certify wool growers using Predator Friendly® practices. In 2003, the program expanded to include producers of meats, eggs, honey and more._

*Humane Practices and Wildlife Stewardship*
_Many predators are __keystone species__ - as critical to an ecosystem as the keystone of an archway. Predator Friendly® producers coexist with coyotes, bears, mountain lions and other wild animals._

_Our certified farms and ranches use humane practices to keep livestock safe and wildlife alive. Through pasture management strategies, guardian animals such as dogs and llamas, and vigilant observation, Predator Friendly® producers reduce the risk of conflict between livestock and wildlife._

_By choosing Predator Friendly® __goods__, consumers keep
nature wild_


rona said:


> https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/environment/save-rewilding-wolves-says-sir-david-attenborough/
> 
> "Sir David Attenborough has spoken out against plans to reintroduce extinct species like wolves to the British landscape, saying there's enough to be done keeping the surviving wildlife alive and well."
> 
> ...


David Attenborough firmly believes in the science on climate change( I like how he deferred to Monbiots greater knowledge on climate change denial), he warned us not to leave the EU & to listen to experts, he's an advocate of zoos - on these important issues you & he appear to differ somewhat.

I don't agree with him on zoos either nor on rewilding, doesn't mean I don't have the greatest respect for the man. And would never seek to deride him because I don't agree with him on everything.

You said_: "He like me believes it should be in the best interest of the animal, _*not as many are doing*_,_* to enhance tourism"*_  _He said nothing of the sort! Or have you got some different information??

Do you believe that's the only reason Charlie Burrell of Knepp estate believes in rewilding?

I noticed this fantastic response to the video in the comments section, backed up by references 

_What a great meeting, one of the most powerful voices on the environment, meets the great mass communicator about the natural world. Unfortunately just under 5 minutes cannot possibly cover these matters in detail. _

_I have always had an enormous amount of respect for Sir David Attenborough, and I'm sure that Leo Hickman formerly of the Guardian would confirm just how far I will go to protect Sir David from scurrilous personal attacks. Sir David is one of the world's great human beings, and a man hugely and rightly respected all over the world. Like everyone he is not a perfect or all knowing human being. _

_George Monbiot makes to correct observation that Sir David has only really started to speak up about the environmental challenges we face, and the seriousness of these in the last 20 years. In fact often more recently. Let me suggest a very obvious reason for this even if it did not come to Sir David then. If we go back just under 24 years to the 1992 Rio Earth Summit it did last appear that our leadership was finally going to address the serious environmental threats and challenges we have known about for at least 40+ years (there is no exact datum point when this happened)._
http://www.un.org/geninfo/bp/enviro.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Summit

http://www.un.org/geninfo/bp/enviro.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Summit

_Unfortunately though it has become increasingly clear with hindsight that our political leaders deceived us. They promised all this action to address these problems discussed at Rio in 1992, like climate change, environmental/ecological sustainability crises, biodiversity loss, and the threat to resources such as drinking water. Not only have these crises got much worse, but much, much more worse, and our leadership has actually carried on dogmatically pursuing the economic policy causing these problems. _

_Our leadership has badly let us down and deceived us. They really had no intention of addressing these problems in the way they promised they would. This is why moral human beings like Sir David Attenborough, who was part of the establishment and how was bought up not to challenge it, feels a moral and ethical need to speak out._

_It is why he makes this point. Our leadership has let us down, so it is now down to the public to force our leadership kicking and screaming to address these issues._

_David Attenborough: environmentalism is a duty, not an interest - video interview_

_Sir David is a great communicator about the natural world, but it doesn't mean he has all the answers, or knows how to address these problems. I don't think Sir David understands the inspirational part of George Monbiot's re-wilding idea.

Sir David is an old fashioned English gentleman who believes in personal modesty. I can remember a big controversy in the Wildlife Trusts magazine over 20 years ago. When being praised as such a great expert on the natural world, Sir David modestly said something to the effect that there are "10,000 naturalists" in Britain alone who know more about the natural world than he does. The controversy was because most of the naturalists thought this figure was in fact much lower, and there are far few experts on the natural world than Sir David thought. Sir David is used to working with other aspects, and I fear he overestimates the amount of people who understand and hear the messages in his programmes_


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

The difference is Charlie Burrell is a farmer he does not claim to be anything else and he has done more for farm animals and wildlife by showing what can be achieved rather than sitting on his arse telling others what they should do.

He's a bit of hero of mine 

Did you know that several new species have been discovered there this year? 

I walk there, I know how little it is exploited


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> The difference is Charlie Burrell is a farmer he does not claim to be anything else and he has done more for farm animals and wildlife by showing what can be achieved rather than sitting on his arse telling others what they should do.
> 
> He's a bit of hero of mine
> 
> ...


Surprised he's a hero of yours when his views on rewilding are completely at odds to yours ( & David Attenborough's ). I don't know how many new species have been discovered Rona  - but I do know its all thanks to rewilding. Which is why I don't get your objection to it when you champion Knepp.

Charlie is chair of Rewilding Britain, Rona. He wants to bring beavers to Knepp - just imagine if you could catch a glimpse of a beaver at Knepp on your walks 

_Rewilding Britain only exists because people wanted us to. We began as an idea in 2013 following the publication of George Monbiot's book, Feral. Inspired by those pioneering rewilding in Britain, Feral brought rewilding to a wider audience. It prompted discussion, controversy and excitement among conservationists, land managers and the general public._

_ Following consultation with a diverse range of people and organisations, we launched as a charity registered in Scotland, Wales and England in 2015. A board of trustees (see below) governs out work

*Charlie Burrell (chair)*
*Charlie studied Advanced Farm Management at Cirencester Agricultural College. *

Upon inheriting Knepp Castle Estate in West Sussex from his grandparents in 1987 he threw his energy into the farm business yet despite intensifying and diversifying, farming on the heavy Sussex clay remained unprofitable. His damascene conversion to rewilding began after meeting the visionary Dutch ecologist Frans Vera.

All 3,500 acres of the Knepp Estate are now devoted to a process-led rewilding project involving free-roaming herds of cattle, horses, pigs and deer as the drivers of habitat creation. The results have been spectacular. Since its inception in 2001, numerous Red Data species like lesser spotted woodpeckers, long-eared owls and ravens have returned to Knepp and populations of common species are rocketing.

Knepp Wildland is now a breeding hotspot for turtle doves and purple emperor butterflies, and can boast 2% of the UK's breeding population of nightingales. Knepp Wildland's Advisory Board comprises 22 eminent ecologists and conservationists, including Frans Vera_


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2017)

Zaros said:


> We have Lynx here. Quite a number of the ghost-like creatures and they've never been a problem.
> 
> I actually saw one once, it filled the space of approximately one second as it jumped out of the undergrowth to take a bird and then was gone, leaving only a slight scattering of feathers to tell the world a bird had once been there.


I love lynx, it is my favourite predator. Utterly beautiful, smart and gracious. It would be a huge loss, if we didn´t have them here. I´m sure that even in Britain you still have some nature left, where this wonderful creature could live.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Surprised he's a hero of yours when his views on rewilding are completely at odds to yours ( & David Attenborough's ). I don't know how many new species have been discovered Rona  - but I do know its all thanks to rewilding. Which is why I don't get your objection to it when you champion Knepp.
> 
> Charlie is chair of Rewilding Britain, Rona. He wants to bring beavers to Knepp - just imagine if you could catch a glimpse of a beaver at Knepp on your walks
> 
> ...


You only know what you read don't you?

I'm living the dream  thanks to Charlie


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

There is a common near us that has a plant only found in two places in the UK. It has taken flippin' ages to work out what this plant needs, and it turns out that what it needs is free ranging cows churning up damp ground and releasing the seeds from the bottom of natural ponds. Two things had changed - no cows because they are too expensive for most of the commoners to keep these days, and brambly scrub growing where there used to be ponds.They still don't know if that is all it needs but they are making progress. Other things are returning or increasing because of the changes (more newts in the pond, more rare plants that need shorter grass) and presumably different insects to boot. 

Is that rewilding? Or is it good land management?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> There is a common near us that has a plant only found in two places in the UK. It has taken flippin' ages to work out what this plant needs, and it turns out that what it needs is free ranging cows churning up damp ground and releasing the seeds from the bottom of natural ponds. Two things had changed - no cows because they are too expensive for most of the commoners to keep these days, and brambly scrub growing where there used to be ponds.They still don't know if that is all it needs but they are making progress. Other things are returning or increasing because of the changes (more newts in the pond, more rare plants that need shorter grass) and presumably different insects to boot.
> 
> Is that rewilding? Or is it good land management?


It's a bit of both isn't it?
Leaving things to reestablish while protecting what is already there and working with the environment has got to be the way to go. Plonking new species in to hostile landscapes will never end well.
A certain amount of land management will always be needed to protect what has become just pockets of conservation grounds


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MrsZee said:


> I love lynx, it is my favourite predator. Utterly beautiful, smart and gracious. It would be a huge loss, if we didn´t have them here. I´m sure that even in Britain you still have some nature left, where this wonderful creature could live.


They are so beautiful & so precious, to have them roaming in your forests must be the best feeling in the world. We do have places that could support viable populations here. I just hope enough people can be persuaded to support the idea of bringing them back & pressure the government.



rona said:


> You only know what you read don't you?
> 
> I'm living the dream  thanks to Charlie


Yes, & I'm only ever likely to read about rewilding if its left to you lol That said, just to know we had a more dynamic ecosystem rich in biodiversity would be enough for me 

You're living the dream yet you seem to begrudge anyone else living it. You don't agree with rewilding but you love Knepp. You don't like tourism but its ok for you to visit Knepp? lol Anyway thanks to George, to Charlie, Rewilding Britain, Trees For Life & other pro rewilders the idea is spreading & maybe other people will one day live your dream 



Jonescat said:


> There is a common near us that has a plant only found in two places in the UK. It has taken flippin' ages to work out what this plant needs, and it turns out that what it needs is free ranging cows churning up damp ground and releasing the seeds from the bottom of natural ponds. Two things had changed - no cows because they are too expensive for most of the commoners to keep these days, and brambly scrub growing where there used to be ponds.They still don't know if that is all it needs but they are making progress. Other things are returning or increasing because of the changes (more newts in the pond, more rare plants that need shorter grass) and presumably different insects to boot.
> 
> Is that rewilding? Or is it good land management?


Rewilding is bringing in missing species then pretty much letting nature get on with it.

Chris Packham explains the concept of rewilding JC.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It's all free, I don't have to pay for it and walked. only did half, took 4 hours on footpaths as it's not open access land, unless you are skirting around large animals  Leaves quite a few thousand acres undisturbed for the critters. There's also other areas cut off by roads that are treated the same but have no footpaths, totally wild apart from a few people trying to record what's there and maybe the stockman checking on the beasts
On a bright sunny day I only bumped into 2 other people apart from at the farm shop, Pure bliss 
More people walked there when there were less large animals and fences to hide behind

His brother has a fair bit of ground, used for shooting, timber, crops and horse grazing. It's also a lovely place to walk and is sympathetically farmed. Not a patch on Charlies of course but better than most farmed ground in this area.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Rewilding is bringing in missing species then pretty much letting nature get on with it.


This is the whole reason I disagree with it. The ground has to be giving the time to recover first. If Charlie had put in Beaver straight away, it would have been tantamount to cruelty, if they went in now, they would find a totally different environment to the bare fields of 15 years ago.

You have to let the land recover first, discover what's there naturally and work from that


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MrsZee said:


> I love lynx, it is my favourite predator. Utterly beautiful, smart and gracious. It would be a huge loss, if we didn´t have them here. I´m sure that even in Britain you still have some nature left, where this wonderful creature could live.


Primitive fears. Folks are alarmed by the mysterious BIG cats that apparently roam certain parts of the country, I doubt they'll want an official big cat wandering about the place.

Shame really. People seem to prefer an idyllic, John Constable, peaceful countryside to wander in, not one where mystery, excitement and real adventure might lurk.
Constable's romantic interpretation of the countryside is not my idea of natural beauty.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> It's all free, I don't have to pay for it and walked. only did half, took 4 hours on footpaths as it's not open access land, unless you are skirting around large animals  Leaves quite a few thousand acres undisturbed for the critters. There's also other areas cut off by roads that are treated the same but have no footpaths, totally wild apart from a few people trying to record what's there and maybe the stockman checking on the beasts
> On a bright sunny day I only bumped into 2 other people apart from at the farm shop, Pure bliss
> More people walked there when there were less large animals and fences to hide behind
> 
> His brother has a fair bit of ground, used for shooting, timber, crops and horse grazing. It's also a lovely place to walk and is sympathetically farmed. Not a patch on Charlies of course but better than most farmed ground in this area.


What has paying or not got to do with anything? You are visiting Knepp & enjoying the biodiversity created by rewilding - yet you seem to think ecotourism is a bad thing. We've had this discussion before - if you really believe people visiting the countryside is so bad for nature why do you engage in it yourself?

Knepp is 3500 acres, the Kielder Forest is 160,000 acres - yet for some reason you think its ok you to visit Knepp but tourism will be a problem at Kielder.



rona said:


> This is the whole reason I disagree with it. The ground has to be giving the time to recover first. If Charlie had put in Beaver straight away, it would have been tantamount to cruelty, if they went in now, they would find a totally different environment to the bare fields of 15 years ago.
> 
> You have to let the land recover first, discover what's there naturally and work from that


It seems as though you have no understanding of rewiding at all. You clearly haven't watched the Chris Packham video_ " we take parts of the land..very selectively..very carefully & we gradually allow that to develop into a far more natural landscape" _

If you checked out Rewilding Britain or Trees For Life websites they should lay your concerns to rest. They don't just plonk species in unsuitable habitat.

There was suitable habitat for beaver already at Knepp. Charlies wife, Issy (Tree) Burrell explains  What does she know though lol http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ng-animals-nature-conservation-britain-world/

*Return of the Beaver*
Charlie and I didn't have to travel far to that river in Devon, where, standing on the bank, we watched the family of beavers as they fled their traveling boxes and plunged into the water.










We'd love to see beavers back on our own land in West Sussex to restore another dimension of dynamism. In 2001, we abandoned our loss-making farming business and released our 3,500 acres of heavy Weald clay back to nature.

The results have been astonishing: We now have 2 percent of the U.K.'s population of nightingales and have become a breeding hot spot for numerous nationally rare species, including purple emperor butterflies and turtledoves.

Part of our rewilding project has involved an expensive restoration of one-and-a-half miles of the River Adur.

We've filled in the drainage canal created in Victorian times and allowed the water to return to its original shallower meanders on the floodplain. This has slowed the flow of the water, restoring the riparian meadows to their natural function as a gigantic sponge. The water is clear and purer than before.

The proliferation of invertebrates in the re-wetted areas has brought in numerous birds like green sandpipers
(never seen here before), lapwings, and snipe, as well as bats. We now have 13 of the U.K.'s 17 bat species, most of them endangered.

But here's the kicker: Beavers alone could have performed this hydrological feat in half the time and at no expense.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

That's a picture of the lake not the river. The wetland area had hardly any trees other than large parkland specimens 15 year ago. Yes Beavers could have done that now, but back then I doubt they'd have stayed unless forced and surely that's not what rewilding is about!

I have read the site. 

The difference with me going there is that it's always been somewhere I've gone, I'm not drawn there by him pushing money making schemes though he runs a couple. That's part of what the experiment is about, to prove to farmers,( after all that's what Charlie is), that you can make money and be ecologically sound. It is still a working farm not a piece of rewilding land, though it's turned out that way by default

The introduction of the White Storks are not being used for sightseeing tourism and advertised widely, unlike many other schemes who before the creature is ever there are being put forward as such

I bump into Charlie sometimes on my travels, he seems the most enthusiast caring individual, wrapped up in the awe of what he has created. He's always smiling to.

You should come look at the place. It's most magical


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> That's a picture of the lake not the river. The wetland area had hardly any trees other than large parkland specimens 15 year ago. Yes Beavers could have done that now, but back then I doubt they'd have stayed unless forced and surely that's not what rewilding is about!
> 
> I have read the site.
> 
> ...


I'm sure the Burrells know better than any of us whether habitat at Knepp could have supported beavers back then. And there is nothing wrong with soft release if need be as long as the animals are to be free in the long term.

Charlie Burrells vision for Knepp actually came after he visited Oostervaarersplassen a rewilded nature reserve in the Netherlands. The profect was founded by Frans Vera the Dutch ecologist - he now advises the Burrells. Charlie has a team of expert ecologists at Knepp. Experts know better than we do Rona.

I believe in ecotourism, so maybe one day I will get to visit Knepp. I wish all farmers would rewild their land like the Burrell have


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Not the whole story but yes what you say is true. Why did he go there though do you think? 

Ecologists are usually factual people unlike many many so called "conservationists" 

As I said Charlie has never claimed to be anything but a farmer so obviously needed guidance. I believe in the 15 years it's been going, he's winkled out those that are just after money making schemes and surrounded himself with people who really care for the environment


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I know another farmer who tried this on a much smaller scale, converted farm building to workshops and offices, created a fishing lake and ran a small shoot, but it didn't pay and after 8 years has had to plough quite a few fields 
They have sown grass and cut for hay then let for sheep grazing in the winter. Much of it is still put aside but interspersed with bare grass fields


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Sheep farmers are opposed to the reintroduction, but Dr Paul O'Donoghue, chief scientific advisor to the Lynx UK Trust and expert adviser to the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) believes there are good reasons for reintroducing the predator.
"Lynx belong here as much as hedgehogs, badgers, robins, blackbirds - they are an intrinsic part of the UK environment, there is a moral obligation. *We killed every single last one of them for the fur trade, that's a wrong we have to right."*
"Lynx would also boost the natural environment, said O'Donoghue, by reducing the overgrazing of forests by deer, allowing other wildlife to flourish. "We have a massive overpopulation of roe deer in the UK," he said. "We are one of the most biodiversity poor countries in the world. We need the lynx, more than the lynx needs us."
O'Donoghue said: "You will never see a lynx running across an open field chasing down prey - they can't do it. They are the epitome of a forest specialist - their coat is dappled." He said research across Europe has shown that wild lynx kill only one sheep every two and half years, while millions of sheep are lost each year in the UK to malnutrition, disease and exposure: "We completely understand the perceived risk of lynx, but it is only perceived."








​It will never cease to amaze me how man has a desire and need to control everything but himself.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2017)

We have about 2700-2900 lynxes and this is the way we deal with all predator damages. The idea is to ensure that we have wolves, bears, wolverines and lynxes, but all farmers or reindeer herders will be compensated, if predator kills or damages their livelihood.

Hunters, farmers, nature organizations and government cooperate. All make compromises, and IMO nature organizations have made too much. But still, we want to have our predators, as they are a natural part of the wilderness. Without them all would lose a lot more than some reindeer or cattle.

There is more information on this site also in English, if some one is interested.
http://www.largecarnivores.fi/large-carnivores-and-us/damages.html


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MrsZee said:


> We have about 2700-2900 lynxes and this is the way we deal with all predator damages. The idea is to ensure that we have wolves, bears, wolverines and lynxes, but all farmers or reindeer herders will be compensated, if predator kills or damages their livelihood.
> 
> Hunters, farmers, nature organizations and government cooperate. All make compromises, and IMO nature organizations have made too much. But still, we want to have our predators, as they are a natural part of the wilderness. Without them all would lose a lot more than some reindeer or cattle.
> 
> ...


But in England some folks claim the Lynx would be good for tourism.:Facepalm

Really?

People don't come to Finland to see the wolf or the bear, or the lynx, or the reindeer, they come for the lakes, the fishing, the snow, arctic lights and father bloody Christmas.

Nothing else promotes tourism better than something you're actually guaranteed to see for the money you've handed over.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

steveshanks said:


> Do we not have a few wild cats, in Scotland at least?


I would far rather see the effort and funding being put into the potential reintroduction of Lynx being redirected to helping the dwindling numbers of Scottish Wildcats.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> Are the happy about anything, all animals have a right to exist, but farmers only want farm animals to live and kill everything else... foxes, badgers, birds of prey, ect..


What a very ignorant attitude  We are sheep farmers and less than 60 miles from the proposed release site. Understandably many of the local farmers (and others) are against the reintroduction. Why would a lynx feed only on deer when sheep are slower, much less agile and are often fenced in? The countryside has changed beyond all recognition since lynx and wolves last roamed these shores. We must remember this species has been absent from Britain for about 1,300 years!


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> How do people think that those farmers in countries where Lynx are still part of the normal daily life fare?


I have spoken to a number of sheep farmers in Europe where lynx and other large predators abide, and they think the UK is absolutely crazy for considering a reintroduction!


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> The difference is the animals are still there.


And in many respects, these countries are culturally a world apart from the UK. It would need a huge shift in mindset and culture for the UK to be able to live alongside apex predators.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Not the whole story but yes what you say is true. Why did he go there though do you think?
> 
> Ecologists are usually factual people unlike many many so called "conservationists"
> 
> As I said Charlie has never claimed to be anything but a farmer so obviously needed guidance. I believe in the 15 years it's been going, he's winkled out those that are just after money making schemes and surrounded himself with people who really care for the environment


Well it must be true if you say so No doubt you & Charlie are bosom buddies:Hilarious Did he go there because he read the thesis by Frans Vera? I dunno.

Of course he needed guidance & they have ecologists & conservationists alike on board at Knepp. Experts in many fields Rona. https://kneppsafaris.co.uk/Information/Meet-the-Team/Penny-Green You_ "believe hes winkled out those that are just after money". _Hmm ok.



rona said:


> I know another farmer who tried this on a much smaller scale, converted farm building to workshops and offices, created a fishing lake and ran a small shoot, but it didn't pay and after 8 years has had to plough quite a few fields
> They have sown grass and cut for hay then let for sheep grazing in the winter. Much of it is still put aside but interspersed with bare grass fields


Doesn't sound anything like rewilding to me



Moobli said:


> I have spoken to a number of sheep farmers in Europe where lynx and other large predators abide, and they think the UK is absolutely crazy for considering a reintroduction!


No doubt they do. Farmers are much to blame for the demise of predators across the globe & the loss of biodiversity in general but some farmers have learned to coexist with predators - even large predators . http://www.predatorfriendly.org/about/index.html

Hey look at this @MrsZee @Zaros  >> http://predator-friendly-ranching.blogspot.co.uk/


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Not spoken to Charlie much, just seen him quite a bit. Had quite a few email conversations with Penny however. A true enthusiast

The other guy that tried to turn his farm over to nature, you couldn't really call it rewilding, he failed, that's the whole point. He couldn't make it pay on such a small scale unlike Charlie who has enough acreage to make it a worthwhile paying farm.

Rewilding as you want it cannot happen in this crowded country. What Charlie is doing is about as good as it gets


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Not spoken to Charlie much, just seen him quite a bit. Had quite a few email conversations with Penny however. A true enthusiast
> 
> The other guy that tried to turn his farm over to nature, you couldn't really call it rewilding, he failed, that's the whole point. He couldn't make it pay on such a small scale unlike Charlie who has enough acreage to make it a worthwhile paying farm.
> 
> Rewilding as you want it cannot happen in this crowded country. What Charlie is doing is about as good as it gets


And yet Charlie wants to get neighbouring farms on board with rewilding & believes in rewilding more of this country - I totally agree with him - you do not & that of course is your prerogative.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

You honestly need to see it to know what you are talking about.
It's a working farm, working with nature. predators are sometimes controlled and a small family shoot sometimes runs over the winter, the hunt go round a few times a year and animals are slaughtered for meat.

Not exactly your vision of rewilding is it?
I hope he does get local farmers involved, it will benefit farm animals and wildlife immensely


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> You honestly need to see it to know what you are talking about.
> It's a working farm, working with nature. predictors are sometimes controlled and a small family shoot sometimes runs over the winter, the hunt go round a few times a year and animals are slaughtered for meat.
> 
> Not exactly your vision of rewilding is it?
> I hope he does get local farmers involved, it will benefit farm animals and wildlife immensely


At least I'm consistent - your views are all over the place:Hilarious

I'm well aware its a working farm lol. So for this reason I accept they had to use some proxy species in place of solely native wild species. Knepp is a farm were nature is allowed to do its own thing without management . If we're going to farm animals then Knepp is a shining example of how to go about it imo. There is never any excuse for blood sports though, so if its the case Knepp allows bloodsports on their land, there is no way I could possibly visit the place. However, it still wouldn't prevent me acknowledging all the good they have achieved through rewilding. Ahh so now you say you hope other farms will get involved? lol If so, then why should rewilding farmland be restricted to farms in your area Rona? Why shouldn't we rewild vast empty spaces like our intensively managed degraded uplands? 

https://knepp.co.uk/reintroductions/

*Reintroductions*
Apart from the restoration of natural water systems and managing our grazing animals, *Knepp is really about letting go - allowing nature to take over. It's about sitting on your hands, with no expectations, and seeing what turns up. And the arrivals are often astonishing*. No one could have predicted at the outset of the project, for example, that we would become one of the most important sites in Britain for Turtle Doves and Nightingales. Or that we would have Ravens, Peregrine Falcons, Bechstein's and Barbastelle bats here within just a few years.

It is often tempting to consider Knepp as a site for reintroductions. The kind of habitat emerging here is now so rare in the rest of Britain, and there are so many species under threat or even extinct, that we often receive appeals from ecologists with suggestions of species in need of a helping hand. Knepp could be prime habitat for, say, Corncrakes, Cranes, Osprey, Hedgehogs, Red-backed Shrike, even native plant species.

But the real value of Knepp, we feel, is to wait and see what turns up of its own accord. Nature, we are learning, is often far more resilient than we give it credit for. Hedgehogs disappeared in our last decade of intensive
farming but recently seem to be making a comeback on their own. Ospreys have not bred here yet, but are occasional visitors. Rare beetles are on the increase and Water-violets have already begun to spread through our water-courses. We believe it will only be a matter of time before we see our first Greater Horseshoe Bat here, flying in from territory not far away in Midhurst.

Being patient, and giving nature the benefit of the doubt, can reap huge rewards. It can show what can return, given the right conditions, without the need for hugely expensive and time-consuming human interventions.

There are, however, some notable exceptions. Beavers, once native to Britain and extinct since the 18th century, are now the subject of a reintroduction trial in Devon. As Chairman of the Beaver Advisory Committee for England, Charlie has, for the past decade or so, been campaigning for greater appreciation of this keystone species and practical guidelines for beaver management. We would love to see beavers back in our Sussex landscape.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm not inconsistent. I think what Charlie is doing is amazing and is the way forward with our natural flora and fauna, with the added bonus to our farm stock.

It's what our UK rewilding should look like as far as I'm concerned. Not putting creatures into a hostile environment just to be peered at by humans. Get the land sorted first, so that it's suitable.
Beavers I can see in areas of this country quite happily, Lynx not......................

You are looking at it from your own perspective. What about the animals perspective?

This is one farmer doing this,on his own land, with much of his own money, not a whole area being forced to take up another persons dream


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

PS. You don't have to support it to see it, you can get in free and wander for hours


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> I'm not inconsistent. I think what Charlie is doing is amazing and is the way forward with our natural flora and fauna, with the added bonus to our farm stock.
> 
> It's what our UK rewilding should look like as far as I'm concerned. Not putting creatures into a hostile environment just to be peered at by humans. Get the land sorted first, so that it's suitable.
> Beavers I can see in areas of this country quite happily, Lynx not......................
> ...


I'm looking at it from the same perspective as Charlie Burrell & co  http://www.rewildingbritain.org.uk/rewilding/rewilding-principles



*Principles of rewilding*
*Rewilding is all about people and natural processes working at scale for the long-term*
We define rewilding according to four key principles. These principles guide our approach to rewilding:

*1. People, communities and livelihoods are key*
*Rewilding embraces the role of people - and their cultural and economic connections to the land - working within a wider, healthy ecosystem.*

Rewilding is a choice of land management. It relies on people making a collective decision to explore an alternative future for the land.

Those who own and derive their income from the land are central to making this decision. Rewilding acknowledges their role as stewards of a healthy natural ecosystem and provides new opportunities for young people to stay in their communities.










While human impact is minimised in core rewilding areas, people may still engage through, for example, nature-based enterprises or wildlife experiences. In surrounding buffers areas, the sustainable harvesting of timber, animals (hunting and fishing) and plants (such as berries, nuts and so on) all provide productive alternatives.

Rewilding can help people experience the wonder and enchantment of wild nature. Being in wild places can help improve health and wellbeing, and deliver a range of social benefits for youth development, youth at risk or conflict resolution.

*2. Natural processes drive outcomes*
*Rewilding seeks to reinstate natural processes - for example, the free movement of rivers, natural grazing, habitat succession and predation. It is not geared to reach any human-defined optimal point or end state. It goes where nature takes it.*

This natural process-led approach seeks to complement, rather than replace, existing product-based conservation approaches.

Management is only necessary in core areas where natural processes are missing. This may involve supportive measures to kick start natural processes or help in bringing back wildlife species in more natural numbers.










The reintroduction of missing species may be a necessary part of rewilding where it's needed to achieve the full range of natural processes and healthy functioning ecosystems. The potential of any reintroduction will take account of the natural historical range of those species, and always be agreed in consultation with communities and landowners.

*3. Working at nature's scale is essential*

Rewilding requires working at sufficient scale to allow nature to be the driver for change, reinstate natural processes and create ecologically coherent units.










This scale will vary according to local opportunity. In the Scottish Highlands and the Borders, for example, the scale has the potential to be larger than in Wales and England.

Rewilding areas can consist of a core zone, where there is focus on enabling fullest function of natural processes, as well as buffer zones where some forms of productive activity are permitted - for example, sustainable forestry.

*4. Benefits are secured for the long-term*

Rewilding is an opportunity to leave a positive legacy for future generations. The continued, long-term benefits of rewilding areas should be secured.

Rewilding operates at a scale larger than that of any single land holding. So securing these benefits requires effective collaboration between multiple owners and communities in a way that brings collective benefit.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> No doubt they do. Farmers are much to blame for the demise of predators across the globe & the loss of biodiversity in general but some farmers have learned to coexist with predators - even large predators . http://www.predatorfriendly.org/about/index.html


Thanks for the link. I have spoken to Louise and have followed her blog since its inception. In certain situations, livestock guardian dogs work, and work well. However the UK hill and upland farming system does not lend itself to using LGDs, not to mention the current UK DDA legislation. Even if you could habituate light, flighty hill sheep to guardian dogs (which would be a huge feat in itself) , having large, aggressive dogs would impact greatly in the National Parks - such as the Lake District where hill farming and tourism work alongside one another.

The UK countryside and its people as a whole would need huge cultural change for the system of LGDs, as employed in certain European countries and as Louise uses them in Canada, to work.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

In your own article it admits that rewilding has to be more than one holding. Do you know how much opposition there was and still is to Charlies place?

He has had to restructure some of what he does because of it and still many locals are up in arms.
A lot are against the butterfly enthusiasts that swamp the place and block the roads and gateways with their parked cars when the PE are about. Charlie has tried to address this by offering guided PE outings but still the place is awash.
This wasn't planned by him, it's just what has happened in response to what he has done with his land, the PE and the enthusiasts. I don't set foot on the place then.......................too many people trampling around.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Hey look at this @MrsZee @Zaros  >> http://predator-friendly-ranching.blogspot.co.uk/


This is interesting, as I have studied predator friendly farming in Finland for obvious reasons.. So far experiences are very good, and as a result those farms with guardian dogs have zero predator incidents. But then farming in Finland is different to that in England, Italy, Canada and US (etc).

Still, as we have bears, lynxes, wolverines and wolves living with us, I can´t see why experiences in UK wouldn´t be as good, as long as people knew what they are doing with the dogs. Also if you think about tourism, I´d see why in Italy tourism does well with Maremmas, as I´m sure they know by now pretty well how to introduce dogs and tourists to each other. (like in what type of areas it is ok to use LGDs, what type of dogs are suitable etc). Also in Serbia and Makedonia LGDs (sarplaninacs) can live just a couple of miles from cities without any problems, so they too must know what they doing.

But, like your blog said, things can get badly wrong and you really need to know what you are doing before you get a dog (or dogs, as you should always have at least two if not more). E.g. in US about 40% of LGDs were culled in the 80´s in Texas, just because the dogs were not able to do the job, the owners had no idea what to do with them or the circumstances were just poor. The situation might be a bit better now, lets hope so at least, though I have not seen similar statistics about that. Naturally there are good g farms, where the dogs too do ok, but is it a norm there, well I have no idea.

The big difference is that farming itself is still less "industrialized" in small countries and thus, animals are usually treated better and LGDs are really family members, who live with the family. I´m not saying that no dog will ever been put down, but the numbers are definately much lower. I assume that in Britain too farming resembles more European way of farming and not that of US.

So my message is that hopefully Britain will look experiences from those countries in Europe, which actually have a really long history about LGDs. In this way if and when, e.g. lynxes will be introduced to Britain, you already have good experiences of LGDs in Britain, and farmers and tourists will feel safe living with predators and LGDs alike.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm afraid Britian has far less land, a third less and far far more people than Finland,over ten times as many. That's the reality of it


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2017)

rona said:


> I'm afraid Britian has far less land, a third less and far far more people than Finland,over ten times as many. That's the reality of it


That is true, and one of the reasons why I think learning how the Italians manage it will be more useful.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MrsZee said:


> That is true, and one of the reasons why I think learning how the Italians manage it will be more useful.


I believe their Lynx moved in all by themselves and have not moved far or increased number much in the 15-20 years they have been there because of conditions not being right for them. Also, I can't see there being as many mountain bikers/walkers in the Alps as there are in the Kielder Forest park. The Alps have far more hostile areas to humans, therefore more peaceful for the Lynx
The Sheep farms are now small aren't they, and employ a herder to look after several Flocks?

There's also more worrying creatures like Bear


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

"We found 399 prey remains from 48 different lynx monitored during 2161 nights. Free-ranging sheep were the most frequently killed prey in the two areas with low roe deer densities (Region 5 and Region 2-north), while roe deer was the most commonly killed prey species in the two areas with high roe deer density (Region 4 and Region 2-south). Twenty-six of the 48 monitored lynx (18 [75%] of the males and 8 [33%] of the females) killed sheep while being monitored. Fifteen (10%) of the 154 killing events on domestic sheep involved multiple killing from 2 to 5 sheep, and all multiple killing were made by males. The highest kill rates on sheep were found in the two areas with the lowest roe deer density and the highest sheep density, where male lynx on average killed 8 and 6 sheep per 30 days, respectively."

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0079261

In the areas they are talking about release in the UK has predominantly free ranging sheep. Many out virtually all year. Not just summer months as in the study


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MrsZee said:


> This is interesting, as I have studied predator friendly farming in Finland for obvious reasons.. So far experiences are very good, and as a result those farms with guardian dogs have zero predator incidents. But then farming in Finland is different to that in England, Italy, Canada and US (etc).
> 
> Still, as we have bears, lynxes, wolverines and wolves living with us, I can´t see why experiences in UK wouldn´t be as good, as long as people knew what they are doing with the dogs. Also if you think about tourism, I´d see why in Italy tourism does well with Maremmas, as I´m sure they know by now pretty well how to introduce dogs and tourists to each other. (like in what type of areas it is ok to use LGDs, what type of dogs are suitable etc). Also in Serbia and Makedonia LGDs (sarplaninacs) can live just a couple of miles from cities without any problems, so they too must know what they doing.
> 
> ...


I'm absolutely horrified to think LGDs that dont make the grade are culled like that in the US. This is something I couldn't stomach - in the same way I cant stomach hunts culling unwanted hounds over here. Dogs aren't just a 'tool' to be disposed of - makes me so angry! . I would certainly hope we could learn something from Finlands methods - if we ever get that far forward with introducing big predators.

I love your message! lol Biodiversity in this country is steep decline, rewilding gives us an opportunity to reverse it. I just hope enough people can be persuaded to support it. If this threads anything to go by, it doesn't look good though.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> In your own article it admits that rewilding has to be more than one holding. Do you know how much opposition there was and still is to Charlies place?
> 
> He has had to restructure some of what he does because of it and still many locals are up in arms.
> A lot are against the butterfly enthusiasts that swamp the place and block the roads and gateways with their parked cars when the PE are about. Charlie has tried to address this by offering guided PE outings but still the place is awash.
> This wasn't planned by him, it's just what has happened in response to what he has done with his land, the PE and the enthusiasts. I don't set foot on the place then.......................too many people trampling around.


You mean the Rewilding Britain website? I trust Charlie & co to know better than us laymen, so I'm totally in support of the organisation. If you don't, thats fair enough.

And yet butterflies are flourishing at Knepp. However if I were as concerned as you that the place being 'awash' with visitors, I would most certainly stay away myself so as not to add to the pressure.



rona said:


> I'm afraid Britian has far less land, a third less and far far more people than Finland,over ten times as many. That's the reality of it


Holland is a much,much smaller more overcrowded country than the UK yet it has embraced rewilding. Its just reintroduced Bison, it has thousands of beaver, wolves are returning....


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Wolves? Where from? I thought Holland was just herbivores. Deer, horses that kind of thing, not lynx and wolves?


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2017)

Moobli said:


> The UK countryside and its people as a whole would need huge cultural change for the system of LGDs, as employed in certain European countries and as Louise uses them in Canada, to work.


Do you think a slow start towards that cultural change would be beneficial in the long run? 
It's not good for any ecosystem to be as devoid of apex predators as the UK is. Small changes towards a long term goal of rewilding might be the way to go no?


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

The UK's population density is such that there are no corners of it much larger than a pocket handkerchief that do not have their quota of farm animals or regular tourist groups marching through it. It is basically a human environment. Rewilding with apex predators will never appeal to the majority of the population who are going to be far too worried about the safety of their toddlers, pets, lambs, foals. When you reach this level of human occupancy, the sensible course of action is pocket rewilding with suitable species as at Knepp, and well planned human control of the various species on the ground which means humane culling to keep populations like deer from damaging the environment or reaching such numbers that disease becomes rife. We have far too many deer because culling is not carried out as it should be, and we are lacking in many native bird species because of human pressure. Here in the New Forest, it is a constant battle to stop the tourists disturbing the ground nesting birds during the nesting season for instance. The keepers spend most of their time patrolling and keeping on eye on nesting sites to keep walkers and dogs away. During the foot and mouth ban on walkers the number of successful hatchings soared. Too many people I am afraid.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> Wolves? Where from? I thought Holland was just herbivores. Deer, horses that kind of thing, not lynx and wolves?


I didn't say lynx but wolves are returning. From Germany I believe. They also have boar. The Dutch people seem very enthusiastic about rewilding. If only we could be as open minded. https://www.rewildingeurope.com/new...-for-more-space-for-wildlife-and-wild-nature/

*Dutch wildlife attitude survey pleads for more space for wildlife and wild nature*
The Dutch conservation organization 'Natuurmonumenten' (Dutch Society for the Protection of Nature, 1905), with a staggering number of 735,000 members, 150.000 young members (of the OERRR initiative, 2012) and managing some 345 nature reserves covering over 101,000 hectares in The Netherlands, recently published a survey on the attitude of Dutch people towards wildlife in its country. Some 40,000 people participated in the survey showing a clear and positive attitude towards wildlife, wildlife comeback and more space for wild nature and wildlife
The survey focused on red deer and wild boar, but also included the possible comeback of the wolf. Natuurmonumenten is going to use these outcomes to adapt its management of the species in their reserves

*The outcomes*

The main outcomes of the attitude survey by Natuurmonumenten are:


There is large support for letting nature decide itself how many animals can live in an area - to build up to natural numbers that an area can sustain. Starvation caused by food limitation is acceptable, with the condition that animals that suffer to death can be shot by area managers;
There is a broad support for enlarging and connecting nature reserves to create more space for the larger wildlife species; in particular the presence of red deer is a reason for people to visit nature areas;
Most people are against preventive shooting to reduce traffic collisions and damage in agriculture. Other measures, such as fences and speed limits are preferred;
In general, the comeback of the wolf is supported and the majority of the people do not see any major problems with the species if it would recolonize




planete said:


> The UK's population density is such that there are no corners of it much larger than a pocket handkerchief that do not have their quota of farm animals or regular tourist groups marching through it. It is basically a human environment. Rewilding with apex predators will never appeal to the majority of the population who are going to be far too worried about the safety of their toddlers, pets, lambs, foals. When you reach this level of human occupancy, the sensible course of action is pocket rewilding with suitable species as at Knepp, and well planned human control of the various species on the ground which means humane culling to keep populations like deer from damaging the environment or reaching such numbers that disease becomes rife. We have far too many deer because culling is not carried out as it should be, and we are lacking in many native bird species because of human pressure. Here in the New Forest, it is a constant battle to stop the tourists disturbing the ground nesting birds during the nesting season for instance. The keepers spend most of their time patrolling and keeping on eye on nesting sites to keep walkers and dogs away. During the foot and mouth ban on walkers the number of successful hatchings soared. Too many people I am afraid.


We actually do have space for viable populations of both wolf & lynx. (not in the New Forest though lol).

*Britain for example is nearly six times the size of Holland, with a substantially greater proportion of low productivity land. * https://www.wildeurope.org/index.php/restoration/national-strategies/rewilding-holland


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Its just reintroduced Bison,


Yes into an area not much bigger than a large field!!

This is more about Species survival and tourism than rewilding


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Yes into an area not much bigger than a large field!!
> 
> This is more about Species survival and tourism than rewilding


Are you talking about the acclimatisation pen? https://www.rewildingeurope.com/news/new-release-of-european-bison-in-the-netherlands/

This Monday, the Netherlands witnessed the start of a new bison grazing project. The first four animals were released in the Maashorst nature reserve in the south-eastern part of the country (Province of Noord-Brabant) w*here ultimately a starting herd of of 11 animals will roam a landscape of at least 1,500 hectares of forests, grasslands, shrubs and sand dunes. *The animals are all part of the European Wildlife Bank

More on the wisent project in the Netherlands on this link if you care to be informed. - https://www.wisenten.nl/en/netherlands

_"Who knows - one day we might even see beavers and bison and elk back at Knepp_." Charlie Burrell. Go Charlie.

Rewilding & species conservation go hand in hand Rona.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

The bison in this part of Holland were living in an area of ancient sand dunes close to the sea but, as the photo above illustrates, close to human habitation. The place was a riot of nightingales. On our tour of this closed site, the manager of the bison told us that he wanted people to see that we can all live alongside these animals. They are not dangerous, they are unpredictable. He was underlining something we have lost in regard to wildlife: respect. That is something I can get behind, planning the reintroduction of extinct megafauna with people in mind. There can be no other way to do it when our population is set to increase further in the coming decades.

What is the point of releasing these bison here? It's conservation of a gene-pool. By introducing the animals in *as many different locations around Europe* it makes them more resilient to population loss, allowing their genetic diversity to to evolve and for inbreeding to be there.

The work being done here was admirable. Rather than sitting in front of a computer postulating about the possibilities they are getting on with it. *But how wild can rewilding this way actually be? The bison we saw here were penned in, accounted for and cared for, just like livestock.* Our impact on the environment is now so far reaching that reintroducing larger animals immediately has connotations in terms of animal welfare.

https://danieljamesgreenwood.com/20...assen-rewilding-the-netherlands-or-maybe-not/


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

"Even though icmo's recommendations were adopted, many critics were not satisfied, and in 2006 a Dutch animal-welfare association sued the managers of the Oostvaardersplassen for what it alleged was continuing mistreatment. The group lost the case, appealed, and lost again. Then, in the winter of 2010, an unusually cold one in northern Europe, a Dutch news program aired a segment on the Oostvaardersplassen that showed an emaciated deer stumbling into a half-frozen pond and drowning. A public outcry ensued, prompting an "emergency" debate in parliament.

"It's an illusion to think we can go back to primordial times, dressed in bear furs and floating around in hollowed-out trees," the M.P. who led the debate, Henk Jan Ormel, said. "The world of today looks very different, and we shouldn't make the animals of the Oostvaardersplassen bear the burden of this."

A second icmo was convened. This one recommended a policy of "early reactive culling," under which the animals that were deemed unlikely to survive the winter would be shot in the fall. 
Eventually, it is hoped, birth rates in the Oostvaardersplassen will decline, and the population will reach some kind of equilibrium, but in the meantime the shooting continues

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/recall-of-the-wild


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

This is where the majority of the Bison live 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...logging-biaowieza-forest-despite-eu-court-ban


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> "Even though icmo's recommendations were adopted, many critics were not satisfied, and in 2006 a Dutch animal-welfare association sued the managers of the Oostvaardersplassen for what it alleged was continuing mistreatment. The group lost the case, appealed, and lost again. Then, in the winter of 2010, an unusually cold one in northern Europe, a Dutch news program aired a segment on the Oostvaardersplassen that showed an emaciated deer stumbling into a half-frozen pond and drowning. A public outcry ensued, prompting an "emergency" debate in parliament.
> 
> "It's an illusion to think we can go back to primordial times, dressed in bear furs and floating around in hollowed-out trees," the M.P. who led the debate, Henk Jan Ormel, said. "The world of today looks very different, and we shouldn't make the animals of the Oostvaardersplassen bear the burden of this."
> 
> ...


I never said Oostvaadersplassen is the model of rewilding I want. It seems to have inspired Charlie Burrell though. I dont agree with using domestic proxy species in nature reserves at all.



rona said:


> This is where the majority of the Bison live
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...logging-biaowieza-forest-despite-eu-court-ban


And its absolutely criminal what the right wing government are doing the Biaowieza forest. Lets pray the EU can stop this madness. Not sure what this has to do with reintroducing bison elsewhere mind.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> The bison in this part of Holland were living in an area of ancient sand dunes close to the sea but, as the photo above illustrates, close to human habitation. The place was a riot of nightingales. On our tour of this closed site, the manager of the bison told us that he wanted people to see that we can all live alongside these animals. They are not dangerous, they are unpredictable. He was underlining something we have lost in regard to wildlife: respect. That is something I can get behind, planning the reintroduction of extinct megafauna with people in mind. There can be no other way to do it when our population is set to increase further in the coming decades.
> 
> What is the point of releasing these bison here? It's conservation of a gene-pool. By introducing the animals in *as many different locations around Europe* it makes them more resilient to population loss, allowing their genetic diversity to to evolve and for inbreeding to be there.
> 
> ...


Will you boycott Knepp if Charlie does reintroduce bison or :Beaver? lol


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It says that in another area packs of feral dogs hunt the bison and have killed young and weaker ones. On top of that the locals have poisoned the wolves and vultures, so they've brought in more deer for the wolves to hunt and explained to the locals that they can make money from b&b and tourism if they leave them alone. 

Breeding what they call super cows as fake prehistoric beasts and letting bison loose sounds bonkers to me and I'm surprised that there's a call for Exmoor ponies in Dutch rewilding efforts. Nature reserves and the odd private park like Knepp looks to be, seems fine, but I think there are just too many people for it to work in very many places, especially in the uk.

I think some of the ideas are great. The beavers for example. Wolves, lynx and bison? Ok, Scotland then, as far away from humans as possible. Keep it away from Dartmoor. My horse is scared of the sheep if they flock together and run and very suspicious of the odd cow, she'd have heart failure if a bison being chased by a pack of wolves ran at her. I'd sign against introducing wolves, lynx and bison to Dartmoor I'm afraid. Nimby.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Do you think a slow start towards that cultural change would be beneficial in the long run?
> It's not good for any ecosystem to be as devoid of apex predators as the UK is. Small changes towards a long term goal of rewilding might be the way to go no?


I am really not sure about the viability of large predators on a small, crowded island such as the UK. I would certainly support certain forms of rewilding in some areas in terms of planting more trees, restricting grazing etc (as has been the case in Glenfeshie in the Cairngorms) but the reality is that we have too little wild space here to embrace the idea of reintroducing wolves, bears etc. For their sake as much as anything else.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Can I just point out that the furthest we can get from a road is in Scotland and it's 7 miles. In England it's only just over 4 miles. So if we put our lynx or wolves as far away from roads as possible, if it was in England they'd only have to trot around 4 miles before they get run over.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> I didn't say lynx but wolves are returning. From Germany I believe. They also have boar. The Dutch people seem very enthusiastic about rewilding. If only we could be as open minded.


The Germans are far less enthusiastic ...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> Can I just point out that the furthest we can get from a road is in Scotland and it's 7 miles. In England it's only just over 4 miles. So if we put our lynx or wolves as far away from roads as possible, if it was in England they'd only have to trot around 4 miles before they get run over.


Beavers at Knepp would have even less than that before they got splattered, it's totally surrounded by roads, something that doesn't seem to occur to some


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Will you boycott Knepp if Charlie does reintroduce bison or :Beaver? lol


No because it's a farm and he will cull for meat when it's necessary, like he does his deer, pigs and cows, he won't let them starve to death

They'd be farm animals increasing the blood lines and swelling the numbers worldwide


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> And its absolutely criminal what the right wing government are doing the Biaowieza forest. Lets pray the EU can stop this madness. Not sure what this has to do with reintroducing bison elsewhere mind.


No you wouldn't would you, but it's one of the points I've been making all through this thread


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Moobli said:


> I am really not sure about the viability of large predators on a small, crowded island such as the UK. I would certainly support certain forms of rewilding in some areas in terms of planting more trees, restricting grazing etc (as has been the case in Glenfeshie in the Cairngorms) but the reality is that we have too little wild space here to embrace the idea of reintroducing wolves, bears etc. For their sake as much as anything else.


Our big cities are densely populated but we actually have vast tracts of land which are sparsely populated. Like our uplands. Have you seen the Trees for Life website Moobli? https://treesforlife.org.uk/forest/missing-species-rewilding/rewilding/



Moobli said:


> The Germans are far less enthusiastic ...


There are close on 40 packs of wolves living in Germany now. Protected by the government & the government is educating the people to coexist with these amazing creatures. WWF have done a great pdf on the subject - http://www.wwf.de/fileadmin/fm-wwf/Publikationen-PDF/WWF-Student-Workbook-Wolf.pdf



rona said:


> Beavers at Knepp would have even less than that before they got splattered, it's totally surrounded by roads, something that doesn't seem to occur to some


Perhaps you should inform Charlie?



rona said:


> No because it's a farm and he will cull for meat when it's necessary, like he does his deer, pigs and cows, he won't let them starve to death
> 
> They'd be farm animals increasing the blood lines and swelling the numbers worldwide


So you're ok with bison & beavers on a farm as long as they're culled for meat?.blimey.



rona said:


> No you wouldn't would you, but it's one of the points I've been making all through this thread


The destruction of the Bialowieza forest, one of the last strongholds of the bison, only reinforces my opinion that it is vital for other countries to reintroduce these animals.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Perhaps you should inform Charlie?


I think Charlie is well aware and this may be one reason he held off on pushing for introducing Beavers



noushka05 said:


> So you're ok with bison & beavers on a farm as long as they're culled for meat?


Twist as much as you like, but the rewilding of Bison you hold up so much is just farming without control, and it's the animals that are suffering, unless supplementary fed during lean months


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://www.rewildingeurope.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Bison-Rewilding-Plan-2014.pdf


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> I think Charlie is well aware and this may be one reason he held off on pushing for introducing Beavers
> 
> Twist as much as you like, but the rewilding of Bison you hold up so much is just farming without control, and it's the animals that are suffering, unless supplementary fed during lean months


You think? lol Think what you like that isnt what Issy & Charlie say lol

You do realise that even with predators a significant number of wild ungulates starve to death or die of disease? Talk about twisting lol. The reintroduced bison are not being farmed. And I personally don't see any harm in supplementing the feed of this threatened species.

Dont worry, it doesnt look like this magnificent animal will be reintroduced here anytime soon - http://www.rewildingbritain.org.uk/rewilding/reintroductions/bison
*
Status: They have already been released into a wide range of climatic zones in Europe and Russia. But we would not consider bringing in more herbivores until deep vegetation in this country has sufficiently recovered from the impacts of overgrazing*.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> You do realise that even with predators a significant number of wild ungulates starve to death or die of disease?


Good job they practice culling then isn't it, saves the animals starving because of human stupidity of putting animals where there isn't enough food


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The rewilding in Portugal is good I think. There are thousands of acres, many abandoned, that could do with it and ecotourism there would be great. As an alternative to growing Eucalyptus for paper, absolutely marvellous and well suited to the larger beasts as well as the smaller. The country needs money, it's unlikely to be totally swamped with tourists who tend to visit the beaches and the rewilding can combine with Spain. Good for the environment, a natural fire break and good for Portugal. That I can see. 

When I see the rubbish, broken bottles and poo bags dumped by people visiting areas in South West England (Dartmoor and to a lesser degree Bodmin) supposedly to enjoy nature, I don't hold out much hope for anything that isn't enclosed here. To keep the people out, even moreso than the animals in. The animals would be more likely to suffocate on a plastic bag, die from eating something unsuitable, probably by some idiot handfeeding them from their car, or be run over by some prat driving like a maniac in the middle of the night, than starve to death.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> The rewilding in Portugal is good I think.


I haven't looked at Portugal yet 

I do know that not so long ago there was an outbreak of TB in the biggest herd of Bison, suspected carrier were wild pigs which where found to have it too.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Good job they practice culling then isn't it, saves the animals starving because of human stupidity of putting animals where there isn't enough food


I accept your point. As I said previously I do not agree in rewilding (with the exception of farms) using domestic species as a proxy. The land only has so much carrying capacity - livestock do not belong in a wild landscape competing with with wild species for food. Culling starving animals is the humane thing to do, but I do not agree with culling threatened species like the European Bison. I agree with supplementing their feed. Introducing wild predators would create a fully functioning ecosystem with trophic cascades - this is what is lacking from Oostvaardersplassen. And as I say there is no place for domesticated species in true rewilding projects imo.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It was actually the wild herd within Białowieża forest that are not only supplementary fed but culled too, though only two last year as it was a relatively good year, but it's usually 20-60 beasts.
There are Wolves and Bear also in the forest and the Bison herd is not really of sustainable numbers genetically but still they cull.

http://gotopoland.eu/explore-poland/poland-paradise-for-observers-of-wild-animals.html

http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/2814/0


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