# Stud cat restrictions



## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

Hello, I was wondering if any of you with stud cats place restrictions on registering kittens and what they are? I have seen some advertisements that say no kittens to be placed on active register and some that say only one girl can be active if kept by yourself and some that don't mention any restrictions either way. 
My plans would be to keep a girl for myself if there is a suitable one so I'm not really bothered about not being able to sell kittens as active reg, but wouldn't it be a bugger if, there were two lovely girls and I really wanted to keep both or a litter of boys with one that was exceptional and would make a really good show cat/future stud!
It will be something I would ask the stud cats owner about but have any of you ever used a stud and not been told about restrictions at the time?


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

If you are going to go out to stud you must ask about restrictions in advance so you know exactly where you stand - every stud owner will be different. I have been to stud with no restrictions, and also to ones that state no cats on active unless being kept by myself. Most contracts state no boys to go on the active. I am currently waiting for another girl and she will come with restrictions that I cant keep any boys from her. The only way be sure about what you are getting is to be completely upfront about your expectations and ask to see the contract before you leave your girl.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

All boys going on non-active register unless the stud owner makes an exception in a particular situation - that is a usual clause. But not beeing able to keep breeding queens for yourself - this does not sound fair! I would not go to such a stud owner - let her sit on her own on her precious blood line!


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks Wicket, When you took your girls to stud did you go and visit yourself first to meet the stud boy and his owner and if you did, were they fine with that?
My girl is a bit shy so a fab temperament is a must for me and I would like to meet the potential stud and his owner first and hope they would be okay with this. I don't want to seem like I don't trust them but I'd just like to see where my girl is coming.


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks Kotanushka, I thought that was strange too! That's the whole point for me, trying to breed a girl to keep that is an improvement on mum


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I've spoken to stud owners at length before taking my girls but I don't think any would object if you wanted to visit first.
As for restrictions they have been discussed before hand but you may find if you use a stud a few times they may be more willing to relax some of the restrictions. No boys on the active is a very common one as well as girls only if you are keeping them. With the stud I used for Pasha I can now put a boy on active if I discuss it with the stud owner and get her agreement first.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Time flies said:


> Thanks Wicket, When you took your girls to stud did you go and visit yourself first to meet the stud boy and his owner and if you did, were they fine with that?
> My girl is a bit shy so a fab temperament is a must for me and I would like to meet the potential stud and his owner first and hope they would be okay with this. I don't want to seem like I don't trust them but I'd just like to see where my girl is coming.


I was undecided between two studs recently, both ladies and cats were lovely - I went to visit one boy in his own environment beforehand and took my girl with me as the stud owner wanted to make sure she was suitable, I met the other boy and owner at a cat show.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Am restricted with my boy , no boys to go active and only for my own use 

It comes a problem when I want a new stud boy as I would hate to lose his lines , but am sure his breeder will lift it 

My outside studs I have used have no resctriction


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

With people I don't know well, and particularly novice breeders, I have blanket restrictions as a baseline and discuss lifting specifics as requested by the queen's owner. I find this an easier way round. I've never had a novice complain at this, most are delighted to be able to blame me when turning down dodgy requests for kittens for breeding


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It's a fine balance in my view between too many restrictions which isn't good for the breed (restricts the gene pool) and too few. Havoc's default position - blanket ban open to discussion - is the best one in my view.

When I was looking for a stud for Lola the one I was going to use mentioned 'restrictions' and I replied that so long as I could keep a girl for myself that was fine, all the other kittens would be neutered before leaving me.

With the stud I've ended up using (assuming there are any kittens!) no girls on the active without discussing it with the stud owner.

With both I've been quite up-front that I'm looking for a girl to keep from the litter, if the right one comes along.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I don't have any restrictions on my boys, and the only one I had with outside studs was passed on from their breeder of no kittens back to NZ for a generation which is fair enough.

I do have to neuter all pet kittens before placement, which is extremely common and law in some states so not really a restriction as such.

I would assume many restrictions could be talked about and negotiated when you know the stud owner or are recommended by your mentor or breeder friends.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> With the stud I've ended up using (assuming there are any kittens!) no girls on the active without *discussing it with the stud owner*


That's all I ever want. Being the stud owner is a bit like being a bridegroom's mother, desperately interested, hugely caring and not daring to interfere


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It's funny, but when I've used an outside boy, I've always wanted my stud owners to be very involved! Have even invited them down to see babies, but none have ever come.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

havoc said:


> That's all I ever want. Being the stud owner is a bit like being a bridegroom's mother, desperately interested, hugely caring and not daring to interfere


This is a very interesting comparison. When the breeder of my girl is coming to visit I am cleaning the house and generally worry much more than I would have for a visit of my own in-laws. With my in-laws it was usually - if they do not like it here, they can stay at home. With the "cat relatives" I want them to visit and like it here. 

Also positive interference from an experienced stud owner I would only welcome. I really value a good advice and a second opinion on which girl I should keep and which I should not when the person knows what she is talking about.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

All stud owners where we have taken our queens say no boys to go on the active which is fine by us as we don't want to keep our own stud and we would never sell one on the active, they haven't had any restrictions on girls though but again we would only keep one for ourselves or to other breeders we know or know of with a good reputation and plenty of knowledge.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Is there a lack of studs with the restriction on not being able to keep a boy? Or is it one that's often lifted?

If I trust someone with an entire the sex doesn't matter.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

spotty cats said:


> Is there a lack of studs with the restriction on not being able to keep a boy? Or is it one that's often lifted?
> 
> If I trust someone with an entire the sex doesn't matter.


I understand that some people do not want competition for their stud... Not good for the breed though.
Especially with the quarantine situation and not being easy to import new blood lines into UK.

Of course people have to be particularly responsible and knowledgeable to be a stud owner, but if you do not have a chance how do you learn?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

spotty cats said:


> Is there a lack of studs with the restriction on not being able to keep a boy? Or is it one that's often lifted?
> 
> If I trust someone with an entire the sex doesn't matter.


I think it's probably breed specific to some extent. With BSH's (talking about the UK only) there are a large number of studs available of various colours. By the time you've whittled them down by colour, blood group, whether you judge him to be of suitable type, etc, who you would or wouldn't feel happy about taking your queen to (I'm sure you know what I mean) and various other factors it actually doesn't leave too many. Then throw in some often ridiculous restrictions...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I understand that some people do not want competition for their stud...


That certainly is not the case as far as I'm concerned. What does concern me is someone who isn't particularly experienced in the breed allowing a boy to be over used or used inappropriately. Where there's a large gene pool this isn't as important but in a breed which has relatively small numbers more care is needed. Ensuring studs go only to breeders who are dedicated to taking such care and will turn away 'business' when right to do so is more the point.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Kotanushka said:


> <snip>
> Especially with the quarantine situation and not being easy to import new blood lines into UK.
> <snip>


It is now quite easy to import a cat from the EU and a number of other countries, but importing is still expensive.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> It is now quite easy to import a cat from the EU and a number of other countries, but importing is still expensive.


very expensive i was looking into it last week.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> very expensive i was looking into it last week.


The price of the kitten aside which I appreciate would probably vary by quite a lot from breeder to breeder, I think if you can travel by car to collect a kitten it is relatively do'able financially - and quite truthfully I wouldn't want to buy a kitten from overseas without going to meet the breeder, etc. I went to Germany last year to collect a kitten (and previously to the Netherlands) by car. Obviously, you have fuel and ferry crossing costs and a relatively (given that our hobby is stupidly expensive anyway) modest amount for the extras related to the pet passport, etc. I think it's where flights and animals travelling as cargo are involved where the costs really rocket.

There are a few very good, one man band type, UK couriers; the cost works out a fair bit more than doing the trip yourself and, of course, it removes your ability to go see for yourself!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> It is now quite easy to import a cat from the EU and a number of other countries, but importing is still expensive.


Importing is often fiddly and expensive here, involving the breeder keeping the cat for 10 months plus quarantine here on arrival, but must be done or breeds will die out here.
No problems with not meeting the cats, only dealing with reputable breeders, which is easier these days than would have been in the past, easier again with a rarer breed.
Kitten swaps keep the cost down a bit too.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> The price of the kitten aside which I appreciate would probably vary by quite a lot from breeder to breeder, I think if you can travel by car to collect a kitten it is relatively do'able financially - and quite truthfully I wouldn't want to buy a kitten from overseas without going to meet the breeder, etc. I went to Germany last year to collect a kitten (and previously to the Netherlands) by car. Obviously, you have fuel and ferry crossing costs and a relatively (given that our hobby is stupidly expensive anyway) modest amount for the extras related to the pet passport, etc. I think it's where flights and animals travelling as cargo are involved where the costs really rocket.
> 
> There are a few very good, one man band type, UK couriers; the cost works out a fair bit more than doing the trip yourself and, of course, it removes your ability to go see for yourself!


Totally agree courier cost alone would have been £700.Seen as though we have some nice british here i decided against it,as you quite rightly said big risk involved if you cant see kitty before you buy.


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

I thought that finding a blue stud boy wouldn't have been so hard! Either it's wrong blood group or very far away! I don't mind the long journey but not sure my girl would feel the same! 
I have seen a couple of very handsome boys though so the next step is to contact their owners for a chat and hope they like my girl too.


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

It has surprised me though how many are not active reg and also some that are active reg who accept pet queens of any breed as long as they are vaccinated!


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

About imports, not only should you want to meet the breeder first, most breeders also want to meet the buyer too. This is a MUST for all the breeders I know. Of course if someone has a well known cattery with good rep+ has a recommendation from someone the breeder knows plus has a really good reason! then MAYBE but... 

I am with havoc in regards to novices being able to blame the stud owner- I never did quite understand the risks of a boy being made a stud- about how difficult it is to be a good stud owner and how appalling conditions can be for a boy being kept in less than ideal conditions. I only had one boy then and I was extra careful to make sure that they could NOT breed him, not even once nada and I didn't have to be the 'bad' guy(my poor stud owner but I don't think she minded).


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

Yes, being able to blame the studs owner would be great! I'm not saying I wouldn't ever sell an active reg kitten to someone I trusted but that would be way off in the future. As a beginner I have no experience of assessing kittens potential. I bet this can be tricky for novices


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Time flies said:


> It has surprised me though how many are not active reg and also some that are active reg who accept pet queens of any breed as long as they are vaccinated!


That's exactly what I mean. At first look there appears to be lots of studs... until, by necessity for one reason or another, you have to cross them off your list. I can't imagine how much more difficult things must be for breeders who have a breed that is numerically quite small.


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

It must be so hard for them! 
I saw a lovely looking boy who I thought might have been a nice match for my girl until I read the bit that said they didn't have to be active reg. Made me wonder why, maybe they're just money grabbers or maybe they've got a really horny boy and want to keep him happy. I'm just surprised that there isn't a rule about an active reg stud being allowed to mate with non active girls and moggies


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Time flies said:


> It must be so hard for them!
> I saw a lovely looking boy who I thought might have been a nice match for my girl until I read the bit that said they didn't have to be active reg. Made me wonder why, maybe they're just money grabbers or maybe they've got a really horny boy and want to keep him happy. I'm just surprised that there isn't a rule about an active reg stud being allowed to mate with non active girls and moggies


Who knows, but it doesn't really inspire confidence does it?! There is a GCCF rule that (GCCF active registered) studs' owners may not accept non-active registered queens in to stud - queens who are not registered AT all or non-ped girls can be accepted without breaching the rules.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

There is a lovely stud I won't use because of the owner... Potentially too complicated.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> There is a lovely stud I won't use because of the owner... Potentially too complicated.


I should think the vast majority of such decisions are made regarding the personalities of the humans rather than the attributes of the feline  I wouldn't accept the loveliest of queens if I felt the owner could be trouble and no owner would leave their beloved girl with a human they didn't trust.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

pipje said:


> About imports, not only should you want to meet the breeder first, most breeders also want to meet the buyer too. This is a MUST for all the breeders I know. Of course if someone has a well known cattery with good rep+ has a recommendation from someone the breeder knows plus has a really good reason! then MAYBE but... .


I have yet to meet a breeder who's met the breeder they imported or exported to. Everyone who's contacted me from overseas also isn't going to fly over here, and has no issue with that. I don't need to travel the world to meet the breeders I've imported from, their reputations are known, as mine is. Cats are sent around the world everyday without the added expense of humans flying.

People don't even fly across the country to meet breeders usually, not for pet or breeding cats.

I can't imagine trawling websites looking for studs though, impossible in my breed, but friends with common breeds just network through shows, makes things very easy.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

That's why red on the ped is so much more important to buyers in large countries as they don't have the chance to make the decision based on personal inspection. When distances aren't so great it's unthinkable not to visit and view.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> That's why red on the ped.


Never seen a coloured pedigree, associations here and also on my imports all used just black.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Never seen a coloured pedigree, associations here


Fair enough. I'm fairly sure the majority of breeders on this forum know what I meant


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

havoc said:


> Fair enough. I'm fairly sure the majority of breeders on this forum know what I meant


red means titles?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Correct. Cats registered with the GCCF in the UK go with a home-printed pedigree and it's usual to use red for titled cats.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Correct. Cats registered with the GCCF in the UK go with a home-printed pedigree and it's usual to use red for titled cats.


Thanks for explaining OS, here all kittens (entire, show neuter or pet) go with a 5 gen pedigree from the governing body with their own registration number. 
No colours for titled cats 

I use pawpeds a lot too for looking at peds and test matings, they don't use colours either.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I have to say I didn't expect Kintracks to do red on the ped as I was under the impression it was Australian, but even they do.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> I have to say I didn't expect Kintracks to do red on the ped as I was under the impression it was Australian, but even they do.


Someone must have requested it at some point, the creator is very good about adding in features on request, earlier versions didn't have it. You can still use it without red.

But red still isn't shown on any official documents from any associations that I've come across from various countries.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I must drop in more often.

Me, I won't impose restrictions on principle.

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But red still isn't shown on any official documents from any associations that I've come across from various countries.


How could it? Kittens are registered at a few weeks old - long before they are old enough to be shown and gain any titles.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> How could it? Kittens are registered at a few weeks old - long before they are old enough to be shown and gain any titles.


Kittens pedigree certificates from the governing body are 5 generations, those generations contain titled cats.


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