# food protective pup!!



## Emzy22 (Feb 23, 2012)

my pup now 16wks is slightly food agresive...never attacted or tryed to bite...she growls and moves her head in tyhe way of her food!

she doesnt do it with me...i can have my hand in her bowl and she will eat around me, i can stroke her whilst shes eating...etc

its my kids im worried about as they are quite younge  if they go and stroke her or she thinks they are goin too near her food she will grown???

i generally keep them away from her whilst eating (as they do annoy her sometimes) but its the offchance that i dont catch them in time im worried about 

any1 now of a way i can stop this...


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

I think it would be quicker to train the kids not to go near the pup when she is eating try and teach them to leave the dog alone when she is eating. Or put the dog somewhere out of the way so she can enjoy her food without learning how to guard it.


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## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

You need to take time to convince your puppy that you going near her bowl is acually a good thing and the easiest way to do this is to pop something really tasty into it whilst she is eating 
Resource guarding is totally natural but impractical for most situations and you need to start work on changing her idea that you are a threat straight away. Do not ever punish her or take the food away when she growls this will only convince her that she does have to guard anything good.


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## Emzy22 (Feb 23, 2012)

pup eats in the kitchen away from the kids..but its the offchance they go in there...

pup has protected her food since we got her ( think it was because she was the smallest out the littler n had to protect her food or go hungry) she used to do it with me and i have tought her im not after her food by sitting with her giving her food whilst im next to her eating stroking her etc... 

its the kids im worried about and i dont want to end up with a med/large food agresive dog on my hands!!


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2012)

Heres an article I wrote many moons ago.. hope it helps you. Good luck!

Understanding and preventing food guarding.

Introduction

It is my experience, that dogs share with humans the basic inborn instinct to protect their food. It is a survival instinct. All mammals have this instinct to some degree or other.

The instinct to protect their food within the domestic environment may be latent in some dogs, but it is there. And it could surface at any time, if the dog feels the need to defend its survival resource has arisen.

It is my view, that what happens to this food guarding instinct, whether it remains latent, or develops into full blown food guarding with growling, snapping, lunging and even biting, is usually a direct result of its learning. The learning that humans provide.

The problem for the dog is that what is a perfectly natural and healthy behaviour, often inadvertently instigated by misguided human behaviour, can ultimately end in the dog finding himself homeless, or worse, dead. Food guarding is seen as aggression, which I don't believe it usually is, aggression is seen as unacceptable in a dog in today's modern society and it is the dog that often pays the price.

This document has been put together in an effort to bring an understanding to how food guarding can be prevented or resolved. I hope you enjoy reading it.

If I where to get cross with your for stealing my chocolate, or chips or pizza, you would probably consider that understandable. You might say, "don't do that", or "Eh, they are my chips!" No one would see it as aggression, just an attempt to protect what was yours, against the threat of my stealing it.

Lets look at this from the dog's point of view………

How food guarding can come about

1	Fido the puppy comes into his new home. His owners love him and all is well. 
2	As Fido grows, he becomes more confident and outgoing and one day on the park runs off and won't return, is unusually pully on his lead and jumps up at a passing stranger with muddy paws, making both stranger and owner cross. Fido's, owner has read some Old fashioned dog training book and wonders if Fido is getting "Dominant"?
3	He decides to test this out by seeing if Fido will let him take his food off him. He read this in a book.. 
4	When next feeding Fido, he reaches down and takes the bowl. Fido freezes and stares indicating his discomfort. Fido is surprised, there has never been a threat to his food before. The owner misses the signal that his dog was uncomfortable with this action, it was too subtle. But the dog didn't growl, the owner is reassured. All is well. 
5	Next Day Fido is really naughty. He jumps in a smelly pond chasing ducks and he stinks really badly. He refuses to come back when called and makes the owner late for breakfast. Owner decides that he must do something about this dog and he decides that he will implement a regular routine of removing the puppy's food to show his authority.
6	Feeding Fido who is very hungry after a hard morning chasing ducks, tucks in to his food. As Fido is eating, the owner reaches down to take the food. Fido is more prepared this second time, he is now aware that his "stare" did nothing to prevent the removal of his food last time his owners hand approached his bowl. Fido is now ready to take more serious action. He utters a low warning growl as the hand approaches his food. 
7	Fido's owner, though aware he was testing his dog's reaction. Did not actually expect this reaction, is shocked and withdraws his hand. Fido continues eating; glad his message has got across. All is well in Fido's world.  But not his owners . 
8	Owner spends the day pondering Fido's behaviour. He really can not have Fido behaving this way, Dog aggression as he sees this to be, is a dangerous business, he knows that. He decides to take further action.
9	When feeding Fido next day the owner decides if Fido growls he is going to scruff him, as it says in the book, or smack him to punish Fido's misdemeanour and make it clear that he, the owner, is the boss, as it says in the book. His hand approaches the bowl, Fido growls, aware that this worked last time. Owner grabs Fido by the scruff, pushes him to the floor and shouts at him. 
10	Really angry now, the owner removes Fido's food and doesn't give it back. Fido is very frightened and hungry too! He does not understand. Eating used to be a simple, necessary pleasure. Now it seems whenever there is an owner around when he eats, there is tension. Owner tries to steal his food, when Fido says he doesn't like it, the owner shouts and causes him pain and fear. And takes his food away. 
11	Fido decides the best thing is to keep the owner well away from the food in an effort to relieve the tension and avoid the shouting and scruffing and food removal. . 
12	Next day, owner places food on floor, both dog and owner are now tense, wondering what the outcome of today's feeding session might be.
13	Fido immediately goes into growl mode, summoning up his courage he gives his best "I'm not happy with you being here" stare and growls and curls his lips at his owner. He hovers over his food, standing stiff, glaring menacingly. "Back off" he growls. "Chill out about this food thing" he wishes, "go sit in the living room" he says. As the owner takes a step closer, he lunges, teeth displayed and snaps at the air. The owner, now scared, retreats. Fido resumes his eating, unnerved and worried that such tension arises at feeding time, but relieved that the owner has left his food, he is hungry!

14	The owner is horrified at this sudden display of 'aggression', his cute puppy has turned into an ugly, vicious, dog. He is outraged and has visions of what might happen if he ever marries and has children, with this dog around. He feels compelled to fix it. Adrenalin rushing and determined to show his dominance over the dog, he roars at the dog, and reaches down, once more for the dog's scruff. The dog with reactions 3 times faster than that of a human, interprets the owners move and desperate to avoid more scruffing or the removal of his survival resource, bites the owner's hand before it reaches the bowl. 
15	All is far from well now in Fido's world or his owners . 
16	From point 4 of this story, Fido has been progressively put in the situation where he feels it necessary to guard his food. He needs food to live. Fido feels that he has to be on his guard whenever he is eating. He also understands that humans do not necessarily understand, lip curling, snarling, staring, stiffening or growling. The only thing that really makes them back off is biting. 
17	Whatever happens next to Fido, he will never forget that human hands can and do sometimes take away his food when he is eating. He is aware that he must be ever vigilant to the approach of humans. He is now aware that most attempts to communicate - growling, snarling, lip curling, staring, freezing, lunging and air snapping - all normal attempts to AVOID aggression or conflict in the dog world, are not recognised and responded to by humans. 
18	As many food guarders do, Fido ends up in a rescue home. Others find themselves immediately at the sharp end of a needle. 
19	His owner, ashamed at having such an aggressive dog, but too embarrassed to seek help himself, tells the home that he simply doesn't have time to care for the dog anymore. Fido, an otherwise friendly, well-socialised dog, quickly finds a new home. 
20	There are children in this one and he loves them. They play happily together all day the first day. Fido has good manners and the owners are delighted with him. He is gentle and respectful with the children even the baby. The children have read a dog training book and they give him treats in return for sits. All is well again. Fido loves his new home, his new owners love him and the children are delighted to have such a cuddly, playful new friend. Wouldn't it be great if the story ended here? 
21	At feeding time they place the bowl on the floor and walk away, Fido is relieved and happy, no action is necessary. 
22	All is well for several weeks. The owners, children and dog are truly delighted. 
23	And then one day, when Fido is eating, Fido's friend, Rosie the baby, now crawling, toddles toward Fido, on her hands and Knees, as she gets closer she reaches out her tiny hand…In an instant Fido remembers that staring and freezing, growling, snarling, snapping, and lunging don't always work with humans. He has only one option available to him to protect his food……. He doesn't want to bite Rosie his friend and playmate, but he needs food to live…….

24 Rosie is scarred by the incident, mentally and physically. Her parents are distraught and cannot understand the sudden change in Fido - he had always been so gentle with Rosie before? And Fido, having bitten a baby is destroyed.

Food guarding is usually easily prevented - follow these points for happy relaxed mealtimes. .

DO NOT FALL INTO THE TRAP FIDOS OWNER DID!

If your dog is happy for you to approach his food or bones when eating, make him even happier, by adding to that food some higher value food like liver. Do this regularly.

Don't give him things that you later want to take off him. If you do have to remove a bone and you are not confident of your dog's reaction, call him into another room away from the bone. Bones and chews above all things are more likely to bring about food guarding behaviour because they are long lasting resources.

When my dogs are eating bones, I go to them and give them another bone. When my dogs are eating, I add food to their bowls.

Hand feeding your dog can to help make it understand that human hands PROVIDE food, not take it away. I often use my dog's daily food for training purposes and this means I may feed my dog from my hand 100 times a day (tiny portions). They like my hands. Other people do the same - they like other peoples hands.

If you dog is the sort of dog who will have a bone, chew it, then leave it, but guard it from a distance, then only feed him bones when he is hungry enough to eat them, of the type that he can actually totally consume. Or give them in another room and leave him to it.

If ever your dog growls when eating or at any other time, remember he is only saying, "please don't take my bone" or "please stop doing that". If I said to you, please don't take my chocolate would you scruff my or pin me to the floor??? If you did do that, do you think that would benefit our relationship? Do you think that it would make me respect you more???

If a dog growls and you leave him alone then he learns that growling is all he needs to do. GROWLING, IS NOT AGGRESSION, IT IS DESIGNED TO PREVENT AGGRRESSION. It may be undesirable, but it is not aggressive in itself. If you never remove food from your dog he may learn that even growling is not necessary.

If a dog learns that you always provide food and more food or bones and more bones then he is unlikely to guard his food at all.

If you have confirmed food guarder and do not feel confident to try any of the above, then just feed your dog in another room, where he will not be disturbed. At least this way, the food guarding behaviour is not likely to deteriorate.

If your dog regularly guards things or is over protective of his food, toys or other items, and you don't feel that anything in this document can help, then GET HELP from someone and soon. Unwanted behaviours rarely just "go away" of their own accord, but they are, very often, very easy to resolve once proper understanding is brought to the situation.

If you want to understand more, have a look at the clip from our DVD on my website Nottingham and Derby dog training puppy training behavioural classes. This DVD is now commercially available and covers a range of problems which can usually easily be avoided or remedied with the right understanding.

This document was produced by Denise Mcleod of CaDeLac Dog Training.

Copyright CaDeLac Dog Training


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

You need to teach your children how to behave around animals. It isn`t fair on the animal otherwise. 
I brought up 3 boys with GSDs so I have been there, believe me. Leaving the dog alone when she`s eating or sleeping was a firm rule. 
I personally wouldn`t have children feeding dogs.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

How old are your children?


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## Emzy22 (Feb 23, 2012)

cadelac denise very helpful thanks..

my kids are 20months and 3. my kids know how to behave its the offchance!!!!!


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

Emzy22 said:


> cadelac denise very helpful thanks..


Your wecome. Glad to have helped. It is after all my job.

Good luck with your dog. denise


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

At that age I think you need to keep managing the situation so that they can't get near the puppy when she is eating just in case alongside the other ideas.


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## Emzy22 (Feb 23, 2012)

my pup doesnt seem to mind my oldest child its the 20month old she always growls at even if shes just next to her????


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I'm no expert but it could be that due to her age in the dog's eyes she is unpredicatable and is growling to say keep away.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2012)

I really think resource guarding is an over cooked issue. Feed your dog/pup holding the bowl and if you want to use the direct route, do so in one quick motion. if you think your dog will bite use your foot scoop and pick it up in one movement ignoring the dogs reaction. Most people ask or demonstrate weakness with slow body movements.


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## Beau-a-saurus (Jan 26, 2011)

jasoncurrie said:


> I really think resource guarding is an over cooked issue. Feed your dog/pup holding the bowl and if you want to use the direct route, do so in one quick motion. if you think your dog will bite use your foot scoop and pick it up in one movement ignoring the dogs reaction. Most people ask or demonstrate weakness with slow body movements.


I have a dog who was punished for resource guarding and he escalated to full on attack to the point he was going to be put down due to biting and what they saw as unpredictable behavior. He was not unpredictable his warnings had been ignored and he had been punished for warning them which taught him a warning was ignored and only a bite would get people to back off. He is 100% better with us and a joy to have around.

Regarding the post I have quoted, I do not think this is good advice and really do not recommend following it, with any dog which shows guarding tendencies;
DO NOT confront or challenge a guarding dog. 
DO NOT try to remove food or items of value
DO NOT try to assert that you are boss and the dog must submit!

What you can do is follow the excellent advice given earlier by cadelac denise and limit the contact that the 20 month old has with the dog, I think the dog is nervous as it is unable to read the toddler and it therefore expressing that it is uncomfortable, at this point I would limit exposure until your little one is older. It sounds like the dog will be happy with an older child it can read and learn to trust.

Good luck with your pup and remember you don't need to prevent growling rather the situation which is causing the dog to growl.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2012)

We all have different approaches with a child involved depending on the dog I would ask the child to feed the dog,, holding the bowl,,

The direct route I suggested as an option does work its just seems many people get to excited about such things having worked in kennels for years and had to take objects from strange dogs or have close contact with strange dogs I can testify that how a person uses body language is very important. In many situations like that you cant spend weeks and months on wishy washy approaches. Sometimes a dog needs it meds ,,today,, sometimes you most get an object now. Out of the thousands of dogs we dealt with it would exceptionally rare for a dog commit to a forward reaction. I never got bitten.

Recently I imported a Caucasian Ovcharka Male at 10 months he came to the UK standing 30 inch tall, very bold with a strong mentality to protect resources. The breeders were our guests of honour for a weekend while are not so little bear settled into his new home. on the first night I fed our new pup chicken necks with the breeder standing close she made a movement and suddenly he exploded at me, my reaction was to clench my fists to protect my fingers ,,ignore him and continue feeding him chicken necks. This was dog leaping over tables exploding at our other 2 dogs guarding leads jackets and any number of obscure resources. A few days into his stay my girlfriend went to pick up a bone and he exploded at her ----- now did we take the softy approach-- NO did we take a hard approach NO, It was a simple issue by nature the breed is controlling he was in a new environment and it was quite natural for him to be touchy over resources. I sat down with my GF and we reviewed why he had exploded what we had done and it was clear she had approached slowly with hesitation. Moments later I quickly walked over scooped the bone up and he exploded not at me but toward my girl friend again. After discussing it was clear my girlfriend was communicating some sort of weakness the weakness was being to familiar,,fawning on him to much seeking his attention, to a very instinctive breed like a Co things like this matter . So in the next few days Sara did not greet him ignored him and became more aloof 2 days later she walked straight up to the bone scooped it away with her foot and in one movement picked it up in her hand as side on. Not a Murmur 11 months down the line he lives in perfect harmony with our other dogs eating bones yards away and we groom him while he he is eating or chewing a bone.Mentality is key. I know the new age of modification of behaviour likes to wrap every behaviour in robes, I prefer to watch dogs they are effective communicators with each other I just feel some issues are simpler then some make them out to be.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

Thier is no reason for example why you cant scoop the bone and then give him 3 back or some other greater reward,, but 98% it is not a great issue pay out for months of training if you wish or somtimes just apply common sense. Evereything in this house is mine but hey more importaintly im the source for all the good things to


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

About your your dog who was punished for gaurding rest assured their were mixed signals if the dog didnt believe it was the best action he would not have continued what you describe to me is weak owner getting into many fights with the dog. Being assertive has nothing to do with aggression.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

Jason, why are you even in a competition with your dog over resources? 

I agree with the suggestions for management, teaching the kids to respect the dog, and teaching the dog that the kids are not a threat.

We have a routine where the dogs have to sit or down politely for their meals, then after they have started eating, someone in the family (including kids with adult help) will approach their bowl and add the good stuff (leftovers or whatever meat Im adding to the kibble). Then we leave them alone. Not only do we leave them to eat in peace, we also step in to prevent the are you going to finish that? from the other dogs who eat faster. Its to the point that its not unheard of for a dog to have a bone, bring it to one of us and decide to eat the bone in our lap because humans represent security.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

> Jason, why are you even in a competition with your dog over resources?


I am unsure why you are questioning the approach when I have just made a long post demonstrating it was a 100 % successful. I could understand if I was advocating pining the dog to the floor.

There is no competition because I own all items in the house it is my house after all I pay the mortgage ? When you say a competition for resources you infere the dog considers me an equal member of the house hold whom he can fight to retain items. My dogs cant do this because they know all resources are mine should I wish them. In reality it means on rare occasions [I dont eat dog chews] if I need to move a dog chew I can.

We are not marooned on a desert island in a life of death struggle for food or bones the very fact that I dont need to fight for items shows im not in competition with my dog. Competition arises through the natural instinct of the dog to retain resources and weak mixed messages from owners. They hesitate or approach slowly the dog growls person retreats so the behaviour continues. Just because the dog wants the item does not mean owners cant effectively take control of the item without resorting to aggression.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

dogs are not grizzly bears :001_rolleyes: how would you have dealt with my 130 odd lb pub if he exploded at you ? We dealt with it in a matter of days and have a very strong relationship with the dog  Has the dog been traumatised by learning we can assertively take control of any item ? No. Because we dont harass the dog we are consistent and clear, the good things come from mum and pa as it were but mum and pa can also pick up items because their the parents or alfa what ever way is best to describe it. I like the using the phrase parents because it has a warm connotation it infers a relationship caring but also the need for rules somtimes but i dont get over excited about this  from puppyhood its great to hold the bowl as the dog eats without interfering and to add things its building the trust.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

Sorry Jason, but I cant make heads or tails from your replies.

If the dog is not in competition with you over resources, why is he exploding at you?

Totally not connecting the dots to the grizzly bear comment... 

Tell you what... You do things your way, Ill do things my way, and well each go on our own merry little way


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

> If the dog is not in competition with you over resources, why is he exploding at you?


hes not ? i said he did in the first few days and we devoloped the relationship and the rules without aggression


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

lets throw out the hierarchy way of dealing with things and replace it with another extreme. I most admit im a little flabbergasted by the notion that humans are now considering dogs equals so much so that we most consider the needs of the dog before are own. Lets get a grip its a bone pick it up be done with it


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

Sorry Jason, not gonna chest thump with ya


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

very cute answer im impressed


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## Beau-a-saurus (Jan 26, 2011)

Sorry I went to bed so didn't reply. But just to clarify, Jason, I am glad that method worked for you and you are obviously experienced with dogs well enough to read them and not put yourself in danger. 

My real issue was with the advice you gave over the internet to someone who's experience and background you don't know, could lead the dog to escalate to bite either her or a child. You and your girlfriend were able to sit down and discuss a consistent approach and it sounds like your dog was already displaying more extreme reactions. 

If the OP's dog (and to be honest this is still a pup) is guarding, growling etc but no intent to attack (and I mean bite not just for show) then it is better to ensure he sees the OP as the good thing giver and learns there is no need to guard as what has been given to him is his, than a high risk approach of 'I will take the item as it is mine (but I will give you two back) seems the better option in a family with small kids.

Anyway I guess we agree to disagree, my approach worked on my rescue who would otherwise have been PTS, your approach worked on your guy. please just consider the possible consequences of advice you give.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2012)

My comments were just genereal observation on resource gaurding to point out body language is very importaint and how some one might go about taking a item in a effective way. With kids i mentioned them holding the dogs bowl its also.importaint that a dog be left in peace. Sure bring him good things make good assocations.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

jasoncurrie said:


> The direct route I suggested as an option does work its just seems many people get to excited about such things having worked in kennels for years and had to take objects from strange dogs or have close contact with strange dogs I can testify that how a person uses body language is very important. In many situations like that you cant spend weeks and months on wishy washy approaches. Sometimes a dog needs it meds ,,today,, sometimes you most get an object now. Out of the thousands of dogs we dealt with it would exceptionally rare for a dog commit to a forward reaction. I never got bitten.


Jason . I have respect for and interest in your experince.

But please be aware that the behaviour of a dog in a kennel situations whether it be there for 1 day or 14 years is likely to be EXTREMELY different to the behaviour os a dog in a householod situation.

In my view the advise you have given is potentially extremely dangerous. I have seen int eh last three weeks 3 dogs who would most certainly have seriously attacked their owners if they attempted anything like your suggestion in their own home, with their own dog.

I would not recommend anyone follow Jasons advice.

To be fair, it seems you have a way with dogs in kennel situation. And I am surer your experinces would be of great interest to many.... but in the case of giving out advice on a public forum, where a dog is displaying threatening behaviour.... I ithink that it is best limited only to advise that will not WORSEN the dogs behaviour.

I wish you well. Denise Mcleod


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

Maybe you dont understand what i am trying to explain fully no doubt i could have put it better. If anything a dog in a kennel will be more defensive and often they older dogs. I thibk we should make a distinction between a 10 stone rescue rottie and a pup. My point about body language is that many owners encourige a defensive reaction by their aproach if you going to pick a bone up its very importaint that you not stare at a dog or walk slowly many people problems start with the aproach.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jasoncurrie said:


> ...with a child involved [depending on the dog] I'd ask the child to feed the dog, [hold] the bowl, [etc].


how would a 3-YO child, let alone a 20-MO infant, HOLD THE BOWL - or safely feed a worried dog?!

:yikes: bad advice, IMO.


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

It's interesting that everybody on this thread has contributed positively and from personal experience. I think it depends on the dog from what has been posted - my 6 mth pup doesn't have a problem with food aggression but then again, I have had her since a pup. She has always had to 'sit' and 'wait' for her food; make eye contact; and hear 'ok!' before she is allowed to eat. I can give or take food from her without problems. But I read about Jason's GF with interest because I think i am also guilty of 'over-cossetting' which might cause me a few problems later, albeit not with food but with general obedience...:blushing:


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

jasoncurrie said:


> My point about body language is that many owners encourige a defensive reaction by their aproach if you going to pick a bone up its very importaint that you not stare at a dog or walk slowly many people problems start with the aproach.


 Walking up to a dog and taking away from them is RUDE in the dog world period. Doesn't matter how you approach.

In the dog world possession IS the law. I have it, its mine. I don't care about alpha smalpha, you don't walk up to a dog and take food away and not expect a reaction either immediately or eventually. This is where so many dogs end up biting "out of the blue" while the owner is scratching their head over why this dog who never so much as growled all of a sudden "turned" on a family member - yes, usually a child.

1. Learn body language. Many dogs have been corrected for growling and won't growl to ask you to back off. But they will stiffen, they will hunch over the object/food they're guarding, they will slow down or stop eating if they're eating... There are MANY signs dogs give off to indicate that they are feeling threatened by your presence.

2. Build positive associations related to human presence around food. Teach the dog that human approaching while he's eating = a very good thing. If you MUST take something away, whenever possible, trade up for something better. That way when the unexpected happens and you HAVE to take away the maggot infested dead disgustingness the dog found, the dog will treat is as the anomaly it is.
Otherwise leave the dog the heck alone!!! I don't care for someone staring at me or encroaching in my space while I'm eating, most dogs don't care for it either. Sure, some are totally blase about it. Most are not.

3. Teach a solid "drop" and a solid "leave it". Leave it means the food never enters your mouth, drop means the food in your mouth must exit. Teach both with lots of positive reinforcement and make it a happy cue for the dog. Dogs who are taught these cues with compulsion end up with negative associations and are the ones who tend to be reactive at your approach and clamp down harder rather than give up the precious resource they found.


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

Oh how I wish I could get an effective 'drop' and 'leave it' :frown:


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

I really like the points you have made in your post. I hope some are not thinking im proposing the im ALFA thump chest mentality. I do totally agree with making good associations etc I,d personally feed you dogs holding the bowl when picking up bones return something greater evan play an exciting game.

But fact is many will want to possession of item regardless of whats said, many will continue to do so,so avoiding body language more likely to elicit guarding behaviour is useful in my view. A dog could have a dangerous item and a situation may arise were a person may need to gain control of an item quickly.

When people move slowly to an item, tentatively face on more a less requesting the item many dogs will read 2 things no.1 a weak approach [this will embolden the dog] and No.2 that the item is Valued.

If you have to take a bone or item it is certainly better to move quickly and to place your foot on the item without paying to much attention to the item or looking at the dog. A Slow approach is a calming signal it screams a lack of confidence and gives mixed messages it sais im not to sure I can have this item you can be sure the dog will agree lol. Plus it safer to put a protected foot on a bone then your hand. If you are at a slight angle the item can be lifted with part of your body forming a barrier. When you have possession of the item you can then give something better back, ask for the sit reward with a something really nice etc.



> Walking up to a dog and taking away from them is RUDE in the dog world period. Doesn't matter how you approach


...tough.



> In the dog world possession IS the law. I have it, its mine. I don't care about alpha smalpha, you don't walk up to a dog and take food away and not expect a reaction either immediately or eventually


 Untrue an alfa controls all items, what do base your assumption of a reaction ? Ive never been bitten ? Like I said this is proven with thousands of dogs what do you base this statement on ?



> . This is where so many dogs end up biting "out of the blue" while the owner is scratching their head over why this dog who never so much as growled all of a sudden "turned" on a family member - yes, usually a child.


People end up getting bitten by giving weak mixed messages and making the wrong associations


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> In the dog world, *possession IS the law. "I have it, it's mine."* I don't care about Alpha-schmalpha,
> you don't walk up to a dog and take food away and not expect a reaction either immediately or eventually.
> This is where so many dogs [bite] "out of the blue", while the owner [scratches] their head
> over why this dog who never so much as growled [suddenly] "turned" on a family member... usually a child.


agreed.

a 5-WO pup who's gnawing on a chew-toy can easily see off an adult-dog who'd love to have that; 
all the puppy does is freeze or stiffen, pause in chewing, etc, & the other dog walks off, 99.99 times 
of every 1,000.

Them what has, keeps - almost-invariably. 
Them what wants it most, gets it - almost-invariably.

those are the 2 most-important laws of k9-property: Possession & Desire. 


jasoncurrie said:


> Untrue - an [Alpha, sic] controls all [resources]...


then all adult-humans are automatically Alpha - as we provide the food, the water, shade, access to 
the outdoors to void, access to the indoors for shelter from rain, warmth when it's cold, 
cool when it's hot, we take the dog for fun walks & provide exciting opps to earn rewards 
[games, dog-sports, dog-dog play & social time...] - & so on. :thumbup1:

BTW there's no such thing as a hierarchical linear status in dogs - or for that matter, in wild wolves. 
 thought U'd like to know - see David Mech's video on UTube for further info.


jasoncurrie said:


> ...what do base your assumption of a reaction [upon]? *I've never been bitten.*


U forgot to add, "...yet". :laugh: IMO, U have good reflexes & even-better luck. 
 That probly won't hold permanently.

i wish U luck - i don't advise that anyone, client, relative, or total stranger, imitate the actions 
that U've described. 


jasoncurrie said:


> People [are] bitten [when they give] weak mixed-messages & [make] the wrong associations.


piffle. 
ppl are most-often bitten when they threaten [in fact or in the dog's opinion], intrude, or are rude - 
according to dog-perceptions & dog-rules.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

> But I read about Jason's GF with interest because I think i am also guilty of 'over-cossetting' which might cause me a few problems later, albeit not with food but with general obedience...
> Like


, Kiwi its not something effecting obedience for me thats a just a question of motivation and if a dog knows whats being asked, but we found CO very instinctive and for this guarding issue minor little things my GF did clearly gave him the impression that going forward was a viable option, were as with me it didnt. Quite fascinating really,In the first few weeks we had him he was like a wild bear we remarked how he could make some people prisoners in their own house.

Their so different to other breeds in that they dont lend their friendship quickly and make such a big distinction between family and outsider. first few days we were strangers tolerating each other a dark foreboding monster I hoped i would not accidentally trip on at night  break through s were tiny ,walking past and over him on occasions each time showing him I was safe and predictable, joining him in the backgarden pretending to check on things allways keeping an watch on him through the corner of my eye. It was very much an exercise in showing him we were predictable safe evan to the smallest things like consistency of movement, Not only this we had to intervene when he showed explosive guarding instincts with the other dogs, immediately blocking his path standing without fixed eye contact at a light angle minor things but important because we had to be safe without in that instants SHOUTING or exasperating the problem. 30 inch dog quite capable and willing to challenge a grown man at 10 months needs a stealthy approach.A kind consistent approach unlike what I hear so often of being dominant for us being alfa was showing him we were safe, we were his mum and dad as it were.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Why even make it into an issue? IME food guarding is something that is usually easily solved with no risk to anybody by managing the situation so that the dog doesn't feel threatened while eating and by tossing extra yummy bits of food in the dogs direction while it's eating, moving a step closer once the dog is completely relaxed at that distance and repeating until you're bending and putting the food in the bowl.

Having had a severe resource guarder who WOULD bite if you went to touch his food no matter how quickly or slowly you did it there is no way in hell I would be diving right in there and taking something, not unless it was a real emergency anyway. Possession is law in a dogs eyes, simply reaching out and taking something they have is incredibly rude.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

jasoncurrie said:


> I really like the points you have made in your post. I hope some are not thinking im proposing the im ALFA thump chest mentality. I do totally agree with making good associations etc I,d personally feed you dogs holding the bowl when picking up bones return something greater evan play an exciting game.
> 
> But fact is many will want to possession of item regardless of whats said, many will continue to do so,so avoiding body language more likely to elicit guarding behaviour is useful in my view. A dog could have a dangerous item and a situation may arise were a person may need to gain control of an item quickly.
> 
> ...


I dont know how to say this tactfully, so Ill just say it. Jason, you dont know what youre talking about, you need to lay off giving others advice cause youre gonna get someone hurt.

Calming signals scream lack of confidence? I dont even know how to respond to the ignorance of that comment. Calming signals are communication. Is saying please and excuse me a sign of lack of confidence in the human world? Of course not.

YOU havent been bitten? What about the next person who deals with that dog after you have made resoundingly clear to the dog that humans will compete with him for food and that his signals will be ignored. You just effectively taught that dog that if he doesnt escalate he will lose his resource. What do you think will happen the next time someone approaches that dog? Oh wait, you already do know, because it happened to your GF didnt it?
What if the next person to approach that dog is a child? Are YOU going to tell the parents of that toddler it was the kids fault for not approaching the dog confidently enough?

Personally if I had a guarder and young kids, Id head the whole thing off at the pass and feed and give recreational bones in the dogs crate. No worries, dog gets to eat in peace. Though eventually yes, you would want to work on building the dogs trust.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

> then all adult-humans are automatically Alpha


they are



> BTW there's no such thing as a hierarchical linear status in dogs - or for that matter, in wild wolves.
> thought U'd like to know - see David Mech's video on UTube for further info.


I have read up on it thanks the first studys were based on captive wolfs the mixing of unrelated adult dogs and later reviews were done on wild wolf packs in a normal family set up

In the wild pack studies the breeding pair remain alfa or parents with pups leaving at a certain age the studies of man made packs and the conclusions made from them are arguably more relevant to canine packs set up by humans. Ive been around for quite a while especially when new internet groups were set up to discuss this matter years ago. Its the new trendy thinking many have embraced which has a positive effect of moving people away from using pack hierarchy in all aspects of training. But there are clearly assertive and less assertive canines and overtones of these considerations when many dogs meet.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

> I dont know how to say this tactfully, so Ill just say it. Jason, you dont know what youre talking about, you need to lay off giving others advice cause youre gonna get someone hurt.
> 
> Calming signals scream lack of confidence? I dont even know how to respond to the ignorance of that comment. Calming signals are communication. Is saying please and excuse me a sign of lack of confidence in the human world? Of course not.


Scream at a dog on recall and the last few yards more then likely it will walk slowly and curve toward you, the dogs appeasing you its a simple as that i dont need to get in a battle with you. Just stating an opinion based on facts of real experience working and living with dogs. Thank you for your input I think I,ll leave the thread now before you start getting to excited.:yikes:


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

Kiwi said:


> Oh how I wish I could get an effective 'drop' and 'leave it' :frown:


I REALLY like this method, especially for a resource guarder


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I really fail to see what screaming at a dog on recall have to do with calming signals in general  Most dogs are going to be extremely worried about approaching someone screaming at them so of course they're going to offer appeasement gestures.

But calming signals do not scream a lack of confidence. All the well socialised, well adjusted dogs I've ever met have used calming signals.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> originally posted by *LeashedForLife*:
> 
> BTW there's no such thing as a hierarchical linear status in dogs - or for that matter, in wild wolves.
> thought U'd like to know - see David Mech's video on UTube for further info.


the video that i mentioned, with Dr Mech explaining the facts:

"Alpha" Wolf? - YouTube



jasoncurrie said:


> I've read up on it, thanks; the first [studies] were based on captive [wolves, with... unrelated [adults
> in captive assembled "packs"]; later, [studies] were done on wild-wolf packs in a normal 'family' set-up.
> 
> In the wild-pack studies[,] the breeding pair remain [Alpha, sic] or parents, [whose] pups [leave] at a certain age -
> ...


that's incorrect, sorry. 

Wolves are much-more aggro in day-to-day life, even within their own self-chosen pair bond 
or with their own progeny, than are domestic dogs; that's PART of why we domesticate animals: 
to reduce aggro across the spectrum.

assembled 'packs' of wolves in captivity were even MORE aggro than any wild-living natural pack 
of bonded pair, older progeny, & younger pups. So no - data from assembled groups of unrelated wolves 
is, if anything, even more irrelevant & extreme than wild-pack data, & neither one is especially 
"relevant" to domestic-dogs in human environs - whether feral, owned, village, or single-home pets.

domestic-dogs don't form PACKS except as short-lived groups with a common goal - when the goal is met 
or the dogs tire of the attempt, the group evaporates into individuals again.

dogs don't PAIR-BOND: the single quintessential seed of a 'pack', the bonded pair in a wolf-family, 
they're monogamous, rear their pups together, the male helps raise & feed & defend & teach pups, 
the male-wolf will feed his mate when she's heavy in whelp, he'll help dig the den, he'll hunt & feed her 
when she's nursing neonates, etc; DOGS don't do any of that.

DOGS mate with any other male or female; any available intact-male will breed any estrous bitch; 
she's ON HER OWN to whelp, feed, rear, etc, any pups; there's no mate to help, no grown-pups 
to help, it's the dam & her litter - period. What "pack"...? It's a fantasy.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

Thanks for the video i,ll be sure to have peek tomorrow 

TBH ive got say some threads seem to twist and weave abit i make a simple point and if you want to carry out an experiment and wager some money im certain i,ll be proven correct

Move toward a dog slowly showing keen interest in a item you are/
1, making it more valuable
2. increasing the likelihood of a guarding/forward reaction then if you moved quickly.


Can i ask how many
dogs you have taken items of ?? in kennels we had to do it every day we could not convene a behavioural convention to get a item. And with this empirical knowledge it was true for us, you can argue its not nice or its rude or perhaps there is a better way . But what you cant argue is that its untrue. Instead of arguing its untrue when you simply dont have the first hand experience to merit such comment. Would it not be more constructive to discuss why this may have been the case ?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

jasoncurrie said:


> Thanks for the video i,ll be sure to have peek tomorrow
> 
> TBH ive got say some threads seem to twist and weave abit i make a simple point and if you want to carry out an experiment and wager some money im certain i,ll be proven correct


Much as I would have loved to see you try some of your moves with my 140 pound ex-feral GD who climbed up the assess-a-hand and tried to eat the human on the other end, I frankly would not let you near any of my dogs with a 10 foot pole.  Besides, the old man is all better now after some rehab of the science-based kind 



jasoncurrie said:


> Move toward a dog slowly showing keen interest in a item you are/
> 1, making it more valuable
> 2. increasing the likelihood of a guarding/forward reaction then if you moved quickly.


Even if this were a valid point, how on earth does it apply to the OP who has young children in the house? Are you going to have them risk their kids to try this out? Im not keen on using kids as test-subjects and/or bait. Not good, not good.



jasoncurrie said:


> Can i ask how many
> dogs you have taken items of ?? in kennels we had to do it every day we could not convene a behavioural convention to get a item. And with this empirical knowledge it was true for us, you can argue its not nice or its rude or perhaps there is a better way . But what you cant argue is that its untrue. Instead of arguing its untrue when you simply dont have the first hand experience to merit such comment. Would it not be more constructive to discuss why this may have been the case ?


Can I ask how these dogs fared after they left your care? Just because they didnt react with you doesnt mean you didnt teach them that humans will ignore polite signals to back off and that they will have to escalate the signals including air snaps or actual bites to make themselves heard and understood.
Dont make assumptions about my experience. The videos I have posted speak for themselves - as do yours


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

jasoncurrie said:


> I really think resource guarding is an over cooked issue. Feed your dog/pup holding the bowl and if you want to use the direct route, do so in one quick motion. if you think your dog will bite use your foot scoop and pick it up in one movement ignoring the dogs reaction. Most people ask or demonstrate weakness with slow body movements.


Are you suggesting taking the food away from a dog who is eating? That is what often causes resource guarding in the first place. How would you like someone to come along and ship your dinner away whilst you are still eating it, because they provided the food therefore it is theirs?



jasoncurrie said:


> I am unsure why you are questioning the approach when I have just made a long post demonstrating it was a 100 % successful. I could understand if I was advocating pining the dog to the floor.
> 
> There is no competition because I own all items in the house it is my house after all I pay the mortgage ? When you say a competition for resources *you infere the dog considers me an equal member of the house hold *whom he can fight to retain items. My dogs cant do this because they know all resources are mine should I wish them. In reality it means on rare occasions [I dont eat dog chews] if I need to move a dog chew I can.
> 
> We are not marooned on a desert island in a life of death struggle for food or bones the very fact that I dont need to fight for items shows im not in competition with my dog. Competition arises through the natural instinct of the dog to retain resources and weak mixed messages from owners. They hesitate or approach slowly the dog growls person retreats so the behaviour continues. Just because the dog wants the item does not mean owners cant effectively take control of the item without resorting to aggression.


If you are keeping a livestock guardian, as you say, then he most certainly does consider himself equal to you. A dog bred for centuries to work independently of humans and to make his own decisions is entitled to think so and in order to train such a dog (or any dog in my opinion) is to befriend him and give him a reason to co-operate of his own free will, not expect him to know that you pay the mortgage.

As the original question, OP you really are expecting too much of such young children in my opinion. You may think they know not to go near the dog whilst he is eating, but they don't. Children simply do not think that way. They may know not to cross the road without looking, but give them something valuable on the other side and they won't stop to look, they will just go after it.

I have raised dogs and children together for 30 years, and I am of the firm opinion that they should be watched carefully while the dog is eating and never allowed to get near him. Do not trust them to know the right thing; they don't.

You say that the dog is fine with you near his food, but that is because he trusts you; he does not trust the children that much, no dog would. My Ferdie is the gentlest dog, but I am the only one who can get close to him when he has a bone. There is nothing more valuable to a dog than a bone, so the idea of swapping it for something else is quite bizarre.

I have never had a food guarder, because I have always left the dogs alone while they are eating and I have made quite sure my children did the same.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Are you suggesting taking... food away from a dog who is eating? That is what often causes resource guarding
> in the first place. How would you like someone to come along and ship your dinner away, whilst you are still
> eating it, because they provided the food - therefore it is theirs?
> 
> ...


_Rep._ :thumbup: What she said. :001_tt1: My hero...


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

Its great advice everyone is giving here especially if you can all agree and pat each other on the back. I accept the posts are made with good intentions with this is in mind I will defer to the weight of opinion on this thread. I am sure posters are so worried that a 12 weeks pup can maul a straying hand that its an escapable logic that no confrontation reduces the risks, Just dont work in my kennel and pester me to do meds or retrieve an item :laugh:


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

When you are talking about a 20 month toddler then I think the only idea that is worth anything is keeping them away when the puppy is feeding. It might be small now but it won't be soon and she will still be a toddler.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

jasoncurrie said:


> Its great advice everyone is giving here especially if you can all agree and pat each other on the back. I accept the posts are made with good intentions with this is in mind I will defer to the weight of opinion on this thread. I am sure posters are so worried that a 12 weeks pup can maul a straying hand that its an escapable logic that no confrontation reduces the risks, Just dont work in my kennel and pester me to do meds or retrieve an item :laugh:


Actually, Jason, I don`t think there`s much chance I`d allow you to handle my dogs. 
Can I suggest a few lines of research for you
Anything by Jean Donaldson. 
And google Sophia Yin. 
And have a read of James O`Heare.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Actually, Jason, I don`t think there`s much chance I`d allow you to handle my dogs.
> Can I suggest a few lines of research for you
> Anything by Jean Donaldson.
> And google Sophia Yin.
> And have a read of James O`Heare.


Well said! He has as much chance of getting near my dogs as flying to the moon!


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## Emzy22 (Feb 23, 2012)

Thanks for all the comments, some interesting views 

my pup isnot protective over anything but her food in her bowl ie. toys or bones or treats!

she has a good 'drop' and 'leave'

i let my kids in turn put the dogs food down on floor while pup sits and waits and they her she can have it and then dog is left alone...sometimes i'll put something tasty in there or a bit extra when shes nearly finished...not everytime tho...dont want her to think shes suposed to get it everytime!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

jasoncurrie said:


> Its great advice everyone is giving here especially if you can all agree and pat each other on the back. I accept the posts are made with good intentions with this is in mind I will defer to the weight of opinion on this thread. I am sure posters are so worried that a 12 weeks pup can maul a straying hand that its an escapable logic that no confrontation reduces the risks, Just dont work in my kennel and pester me to do meds or retrieve an item :laugh:


Laugh all you want, but dont hold your breath for me to be asking you for help with anything dog related  BTW, giving meds and taking food are related how???

Believe it or not, there are ways of taking something away from a dog without reinforcing the dogs fear of losing the item and making the guarding worse.  Resource guarding is born of fear - fear of losing the resource. You fail to see how your approach simply reinforces the dogs fear. This in turn WILL make the guarding worse over time. I would wager to guess the reason you havent seen this is because a) you dont really have as much experience as you think you do, and b) youre not following up with the dogs after they leave your care.

Just a general heads up - CO are a breed that is very slow to mature. I cant tell from your posts exactly, but from your videos yours appears rather young. Expect your guy to be a bit of a different dog as he continues to mature. The dog you end up with at 3 or 4 years is going to be quite different than the dog you had at 24 months.



ClaireandDaisy said:


> Actually, Jason, I don`t think there`s much chance I`d allow you to handle my dogs.
> Can I suggest a few lines of research for you
> Anything by Jean Donaldson.
> And google Sophia Yin.
> And have a read of James O`Heare.


Yep! :thumbup1: Add Suzanne Clothier to the list too


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

Thanks for the advice on co :laugh:newfie i have those books unlike some peopls ultra pacifist approach i consider items in my house mine sorry if that is to aggressive to you im also sorry that i dont need your expert guidiance and cant massage your ego


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

jasoncurrie said:


> Thanks for the advice on co :laugh:newfie i have those books unlike some peopls ultra pacifist approach *i consider items in my house mine *sorry if that is to aggressive to you im also sorry that i dont need your expert guidiance and cant massage your ego


Really? In that case I hope you are not married.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

jasoncurrie said:


> Thanks for the advice on co :laugh:newfie i have those books unlike some peopls ultra pacifist approach i consider items in my house mine sorry if that is to aggressive to you im also sorry that i dont need your expert guidiance and cant massage your ego


Ultra pacifist approach? What are we, at war or something? This is a dog, canis FAMILIARIS. You know, the animal you brought in to your home as a COMPANION? As a partner? Because you LIKE them?

I'm sorry, I just get really annoyed with this attitude, this "tame the wild beast", "conquer the savage" approach to living with dogs. It demeaning to the dog to say the least, and it is so destructive to the relationship of cooperation we should be striving for. It makes me sad - both human and dog are greatly missing out with this kind of attitude.

If the above comment is meant as a slam to anyone who doesn't share your attitude, you have my pity. People with this "conquer the dog" attitude will never know the joy of working with a dog who is a willing participant and who cooperates eagerly. Nor will they ever know the levels of performance you can reach this way. So sad....


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

He is banned, so pointless replying to him.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Ultra pacifist approach? What are we, at war or something? This is a dog, canis FAMILIARIS. You know, the animal you brought in to your home as a COMPANION? As a partner? Because you LIKE them?
> 
> I'm sorry, I just get really annoyed with this attitude, this "tame the wild beast", "conquer the savage" approach to living with dogs. It demeaning to the dog to say the least, and it is so destructive to the relationship of cooperation we should be striving for. It makes me sad - both human and dog are greatly missing out with this kind of attitude.
> 
> If the above comment is meant as a slam to anyone who doesn't share your attitude, you have my pity. People with this "conquer the dog" attitude will never know the joy of working with a dog who is a willing participant and who cooperates eagerly. Nor will they ever know the levels of performance you can reach this way. So sad....


Sadder for the dog; the "pack leader" will never notice the difference.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

DoggieBag said:


> He is banned, so pointless replying to him.


Oh darn, missed that!
Eh, someone else might need to hear it, ya never know


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DoggieBag said:


> He is banned, so pointless replying to him.


Well spotted! He probably asked for that because nobody agreed with him


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## Beau-a-saurus (Jan 26, 2011)

Hi Guys,

I stayed out of this one after I'd said my piece, but I have to say thanks to all of those who persevered to give balanced responses to posts I considered inflammatory, you all did a fab job, especially if anyone comes to read this tread later on!

OP - it sounds like you are doing really well even given the conflicting advice :thumbup: your pup sounds like it is settling and I really do think it is just an age thing with your youngest, given good management now and time you shouldn't have any issues going forward.

As mentioned in a post above, a really good book about resource guarding and the way a dog thinks is Mine by Jean Donaldson, I wish I have remembered to recommend it earlier. It really helped with my understanding of what was going on behind the actions of my boy.

Good luck and keep us updated


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2012)

jasoncurrie said:


> Maybe you dont understand what i am trying to explain fully no doubt i could have put it better. If anything a dog in a kennel will be more defensive and often they older dogs. I thibk we should make a distinction between a 10 stone rescue rottie and a pup. My point about body language is that many owners encourige a defensive reaction by their aproach if you going to pick a bone up its very importaint that you not stare at a dog or walk slowly many people problems start with the aproach.


Weith respect again for your experince Jason..... I am not sure how many household pets yu have encountered with respect to resource guarding... but again you speak mainly it seems from kennel dog situations. That is not the situation that the OP is in.

When you suggest people adopt a specific type of body language , you are offering idelaistic advice in an unidealistic world. I see many many owners whose re;ationship with their dog would benefit from a change ion approach or body langiuage... but you cant just tell someone to do that. When a dog has shown resource guarding tendenicies and in so doing will have to some degree FRIGHTYENED their owner.... then the majority of owners will find it impossible to forget that incident and approach differently. Their approach will reflect their inner turmpoil... their loved pet... has turned monster, even if only temporari;y or briefly or occasionally. it is tremendously frightening and concerning to most pet dog owners.

If I where trying to cure someone with epression, or with a spider phobia, I coulsnt just say approach things more calmly, or forget your worries otr concerns. In their minds their is GENUINE reason for concern. When a og has shown resource guarding there is both REAL (what happened when the dog did it) and IMAGINED (what might have been worse or what might be wworse if the dog does it again) fear. These are justified fears. Resource guarding usually gets worse not better.

Again, I encourage you to consider the efffect your recommendations and suggestions might have on a case where the dog is capable and or practicied and really inflicting harm and damage on people in an effort to resource guard. And where an owners experince is limited by the ownership or experince of one or only a few dogs. I have handled many thousands of dogs. But I am still very carfeull in my approach to them...... for I know that out there.... there str dogs that are capable of causing real serious and very swift damage if handled incorrectly.

I wish you well Denise Mcleod


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2012)

jasoncurrie said:


> My point about body language is that many owners encourige a defensive reaction by their aproach if you going to pick a bone up its very importaint that you not stare at a dog or walk slowly many people problems start with the aproach.


WIth respect again for your particular experince..... YOu have made a generalised statement here that suggests that this applies to all dogs, all handlers and all dog handler situations. I would suggest that there is no single piece of general advice that applies to ALL situations other than perhaps make sure your dog has food water air and sunlight ever day if you want to keep it alive and mentally stable. Everything else is pretty specific to the dog / handler situation. Generalising int eh way that you do particularly when the issue under discussion is one where getting it wrong could mean getting bitten or worse..... is dangerous. I hope that you find this criticism constructive. I am sure that your experince in kennels is usefull but your paproach to rellaying your experince suggests to me that you have over simplified your own experinces. I did that once a long time ago, when I had views on ways to avoid getting bitten, the result - I got bitten one day. Its dangerous to over simplify or generalise when ti comes to aggressive tendencies. Regards, Denise Mcleod


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## DoggieBag (Jan 20, 2012)

jasoncurrie has been banned, so pointless wasting your time replying to his suggestions.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2012)

DoggieBag said:


> jasoncurrie has been banned, so pointless wasting your time replying to his suggestions.


Oh Doggiebag. Thank you for pointing that out! I could have gone on replying all day . Must read entire thread to get full picture after hoiday next time . Thanks again


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