# Kennel Club Consultation on Improving Show Scene



## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

The KC have set up a working party to look at ways in which dog shows can be improved to attract new exhibitors and retain existing ones. Any changes, obviously, have an implication for my book - potentially it could be out of date before it is published!  

Apart from a couple of articles in the dog press, I've yet to find anyone who's seen a consultation paper, or even knows about the consultation! The KC have told me there is no timescale for this. I'm working a bit blind. 

So my thought was to have a chapter at the end of the book discussing the proposals. I have my own views, but I wondered whether you'd like to put your comments forward for me to use in the discussion? The sort of things I'm after is whether you think a change would be implemented, and what your thoughts are on whether it would be an improvement or not?

Hope you don't think it's too cheeky of me - but in any event, you might find the proposals interesting.

The changes proposed are:

1. Change to the beaten dog rule - A dog need not enter a breed class to enter a stakes class. BOB or BIB could be beaten in a stakes class, so could devalue BIB?

2. To have two sets of CCs awarded at a General or Group Champ Show, i.e. breed clubs would run their Champ Shows along side the General Show.. Financial benefits to exhibitors and clubs.

3. Core breeds (i.e. in stud book bands D and E) to be allocated CCs at all general championship shows. 

4. Allowing people to enter Open and Limited shows on the day of the show itself? One article states this would be limited to age restricted and Open classes.

5. The introduction of a Champion's class so the same people don't constantly win CCs

6. Benching at all shows to be scrapped.

As stated above, I'd be really interested in your views?


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> The KC have set up a working party to look at ways in which dog shows can be improved to attract new exhibitors and retain existing ones. Any changes, obviously, have an implication for my book - potentially it could be out of date before it is published!
> 
> Apart from a couple of articles in the dog press, I've yet to find anyone who's seen a consultation paper, or even knows about the consultation! The KC have told me there is no timescale for this. I'm working a bit blind.
> 
> ...


I think there is a lot that could be done but the old hands are too powerful to allow any changes that might disadvantage them.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Thanks Gill - interesting points. Just to pick up on one, I'd love to see entry on the day at Open shows, but there are so many organisational issues. 

1. If entry forms are going to need to be completed in the same way as now, it would take forever to register everyone. Assuming it attracted a passerby, would they even have the info to hand?

2. What about the catalogue? Not all dogs would be listed. And it is nice to know who you've beaten (or been beaten by )

3. At the moment, at any KC licensed show all dogs including 'not for entry' must be entered into the show to be covered by insurance. If number of dogs entered weren't known prior to the date, could this affect the insurance?

4. It could be a nightmare for stewards to know who they should have in the ring. 

5. It would need a major rewrite of the regs in my view as there are so many things to take into account. Can't see it as a quick change because of this. 

Benching

I agree with you. Now Bess will settle on her bench she's far more relaxed than at Open Shows where she stays with us. Because the day at a champ show is so long, I'd have to take a crate if benching wasn't provided. One extra thing to carry, and the same amount of space would need to be available as everyone would be taking them. I can't see Crufts working without benches - just too many people around. I would like to see any mention of having to stay to a certain time removed from the regs though.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I don't really have enough showing experience to really form a proper opinion about the current proposals but ever since we started dabbling in the show world I've thought it would be great to have neuter classes.

The main argument I've seen against neuter classes is that showing is for evaluating breeding stock and as neutered animals can'c contribute in that sense it's pointless showing them. I agree about what showing is for but I don't agree that it renders non-breeding animals useless in the evaluation of breeding stock as a whole. Surely it's useful to see what offspring is being produced even if that offspring will not be used for breeding themselves? 

I also think it would make it far easier for complete beginners to have a go. I would guess that a good proportion (quite probably most) of pedigree dogs who go to pet homes will be neutered. It's possible to show a castrated dog with permission from the KC (and of course you can just not mention about a bitch being spayed) and I know some people have done so and been quite successful. You can be left feeling like something of a pariah though, we've shown Wybie once since he was castrated and it was an awful experience. I felt rotten afterwards even though I knew there was a good chance we'd be heavily penalised for it. 

A neuter class would mean people who fancy having a go at a "proper" show with their family pet could do so without the risk of being treated like we were. 

We've decided we're not continuing with showing for the foreseeable future. We prefer to have our dogs castrated, it's an informed decision and one we're happy with. Although technically we could continue showing the reality is that it's even more of a gamble with judges than usual and when we can't get to that many shows it makes it all a waste of time. If we were to get a bitch in the future then I might consider going back into the ring but I won't be bothering with any of our boys.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

In theory Opens do have to deal with entries they weren't expecting as if you pitch up and say you posted the entry but it hasn't been received by them they still have to let you enter. it is then looked into afterwards but how can they prove you didn't post it. Obviously you couldn't do it more than once cos they would find it harder and harder to believe.

Maybe it could be done on the basis that you pay a premium for entering on the day and had to be there and entered two hours before Judging starts and only eligible for Open classes. This would cover the costs of people being there just to deal with this and all details could be added onto a PC as the entries were taken and catalogue supplements printed that people who had ordered catalogues had for free but others had to pay for. Entry lists for the stewards could be updated this way too. They manage with people that don't turn up so don't see that managing with extras in one class should be too much hassle. I am not saying it is without problems but anything that increases entries to Open Shows is a good thing in my book.

By the way I checked with the KC and I was right in my thinking about Stakes Classes and unbeaten dogs.

I have also thought long and hard about benching and all in all I think they are a good thing. I remembered how much of a nightmare unbenched shows are with having to take a crate, bag a spot big enough and safe enough for the boy to rest, leave half the stuff I need in the car as I can't carry it etc etc etc.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> I don't really have enough showing experience to really form a proper opinion about the current proposals but ever since we started dabbling in the show world I've thought it would be great to have neuter classes.
> 
> The main argument I've seen against neuter classes is that showing is for evaluating breeding stock and as neutered animals can'c contribute in that sense it's pointless showing them. I agree about what showing is for but I don't agree that it renders non-breeding animals useless in the evaluation of breeding stock as a whole. Surely it's useful to see what offspring is being produced even if that offspring will not be used for breeding themselves?
> 
> ...


I think this could be used in an argument for making Breed and Stakes Classes separate at shows. They couldn't use that argument as a reason why neutered dogs shouldn't be allowed in a stakes class as they are generally any variety.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> I don't really have enough showing experience to really form a proper opinion about the current proposals but ever since we started dabbling in the show world I've thought it would be great to have neuter classes.
> 
> .


I think that's a great idea, and your reasoning about the progeny is sound!



Emmastace said:


> In theory Opens do have to deal with entries they weren't expecting as if you pitch up and say you posted the entry but it hasn't been received by them *they still have to let you enter*. it is then looked into afterwards but how can they prove you didn't post it. Obviously you couldn't do it more than once cos they would find it harder and harder to believe.


Open shows do not have to let you in unless you have proof of postage with you (which is why people always should carry it), or your bank statement showing when your cheque was cashed.

I know it does happen, but I've not see it, so I would think the number of people who's entry 'got lost in the post' is fairly few, compared to the number who might decide to turn up on the day. Take me, as a bitch owner. Why would I bother entering in advance, and risking losing my entry fee if my bitch comes into season?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> By the way I checked with the KC and I was right in my thinking about Stakes Classes and unbeaten dogs.


Yes, you are right - I wasn't expressing it properly.

But then, at Opens when the Stakes classes are held after BIS, it could happen anyway that the BIS dog is beaten.

And if anyone wonders why I'm getting more grey hairs it's because I've been reading the Showing Regs for the last few months! And this week, the IKC and FCI regs! (The latter, by the way, are written in better, straightforward English than ours are! )


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I know someone suggested to me if posting entries to put a sae in with your entry so they can let you know they have received it.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Firedog said:


> I know someone suggested to me if posting entries to put a sae in with your entry so they can let you know they have received it.


That's a brilliant idea!!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> The changes proposed are:
> 
> 1. Change to the beaten dog rule - A dog need not enter a breed class to enter a stakes class. BOB or BIB could be beaten in a stakes class, so could devalue BIB?


This seems to be talking about two separate things.

The bit in red is already true - you can enter dogs in only stakes classes at all shows, but you have to pay the same price as the breed entry (if you enter both you get the stakes entry at a reduced rate)

As for the bit in purple - I think it's a good idea to divorce stakes classes completely from the breed classes and have them exempt from the unbeaten rule.



BessieDog said:


> 2. To have two sets of CCs awarded at a General or Group Champ Show, i.e. breed clubs would run their Champ Shows along side the General Show.. Financial benefits to exhibitors and clubs.


Can see the attraction re costs - but with multiple dogs in one breed, plus two different breeds to show, plus YKC classes, plus stakes classes, it's often hard to manage to make all our classes as it is. Having to keep an eye on another show on the same site would be awful. In addition, sometimes dogs drop coats and aren't in the best show condition, or you want to take a bitch out to have a litter - the more shows you have on one day, the less choice you have during the year about when to show your dog.



BessieDog said:


> 3. Core breeds (i.e. in stud book bands D and E) to be allocated CCs at all general championship shows.


Now that would work - it would certainly draw more entries.



BessieDog said:


> 4. Allowing people to enter Open and Limited shows on the day of the show itself? One article states this would be limited to age restricted and Open classes.


This seems like a good idea from the exhibitor's point of view but, I would suspect, a nightmare from a show admin point of view - how do you know how many rings, how many judges. which kind of judges etc etc if you don't know how many entries and which breeds you are going to get? I would also suspect that t would mean that show societies would go for all-rounder judges instead of breed specialists, which is not so good for the exhibitor.



BessieDog said:


> 5. The introduction of a Champion's class so the same people don't constantly win CCs


I thnk this would devalue the CC. A CC is not supposed to be easy to win.



BessieDog said:


> 6. Benching at all shows to be scrapped.


I'd rather see it optional than scrapped - some people don't use benching but we always do. It's sort of comforting in a way to know that even if you arrive late at a show, with multiple dogs, you will have allocated spaces for all your dogs, rather than not being able to get anywhere near your ring because it will be crowded round with crates and trolleys and tables. It does annoy me when the benching is miles away from the ring (as it was at Three Counties yesterday) or when there is a row of trade stands between the benching and the ring (as they do at Leeds). What the suggested new rule ought to be, imo, is that all shows must have the kind of "in and out" tents that you see at Southern Counties, Darlington and Driffield, for example, with the benching right next to the ring. Then people woud use the benching instead of blocking the ringside and gangways with crates and tables.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> In theory Opens do have to deal with entries they weren't expecting as if you pitch up and say you posted the entry but it hasn't been received by them they still have to let you enter. it is then looked into afterwards but how can they prove you didn't post it. Obviously you couldn't do it more than once cos they would find it harder and harder to believe.


They do let you compete, but they check up afterwards and if you haven't posted an entry, or have not posted it on time, then anything you win will be taken from you.



Emmastace said:


> By the way I checked with the KC and I was right in my thinking about Stakes Classes and unbeaten dogs.


No - an unbeaten dog is one that has not been beaten by ANY dog in the stakes, not just by one of its breed. This is what the show regs say ad verbatim:

"_Best in Show.
The dog declared Best in Show is a dog which has competed and is unbeaten
by any other dog exhibited at the same Show._"

The only exemptions to this rule are these:

"_Proviso For the purposes of this Regulation, dogs beaten in competition
for Stud Dog, Brood Bitch, Progeny, Brace and Team or a Special Award
confined to a single breed, will not be considered to be beaten dogs._"



BessieDog said:


> But then, at Opens when the Stakes classes are held after BIS, it could happen anyway that the BIS dog is beaten.


But the dog won't have been beaten until after he/she is declared BIS - which is why stakes classes at Open shows are often scheduled after BIS - and which makes a good supporting argument for having breed classes and stakes classes completely divorced from each other.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> The main argument I've seen against neuter classes is that showing is for evaluating breeding stock and as neutered animals can'c contribute in that sense it's pointless showing them. I agree about what showing is for but I don't agree that it renders non-breeding animals useless in the evaluation of breeding stock as a whole.


If showing is for 'evaluating breeding stock' then I, and I suspect many others, wouldn't do it. One of the dogs I have is neutered and has KC permission to be shown. He is shown because, in himself, he's a great advert for the breed - not for anything to do with breeding potential. The same is true of the entire dogs I show.

The argument for evaluating breeding stock is hugely flawed. For example, I guarantee that within 5 years, EVERY puppy within Hungarian Vizla breeding in the UK will share a common ancestor. It's totally the wrong way to go.



BessieDog said:


> 5. The introduction of a Champion's class so the same people don't constantly win CCs


Absolutely and long overdue. In a world where judges quite often award by the person holding the lead or the 'reputation' of a dog rather than how the dog is on the day it's a total nonsense for a dog to go beyond 3 CCs. It doesn't make him any more of a champion and could easily stop another dog which is equally, if not more, deserving getting his CCs. There's no reason that once CCs have been awarded that a 'Champions class' couldn't be run into which existing champions could compete against that day's CC winners for Best of Breed / Group entries.

I know of one handler who wouldn't show his 'usual' dog at a show when it was made obvious (because the judge didn't like the 'type' of dog he would have shown) that he wouldn't win. I've seen the same handler take a dog into a ring and he would have won if the dog had been stuffed and riding on a skateboard - simply because of the handler being recognisable. When I see that again and again it becomes insulting to all the other entrants. I've even seen a published judge's critique where the judge thought that the dog was another dog simply because of the handler. Which was all the more surprising as one was a dog and the other a bitch.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

The changes proposed are:

*1. Change to the beaten dog rule - A dog need not enter a breed class to enter [B*]a stakes class. BOB or BIB could be beaten in a stakes class, so could devalue BIB?[/B]

The beaten dog rule should not apply to stakes classes - that's a no brainier if we want theses classes to remain viable
*
2. To have two sets of CCs awarded at a General or Group Champ Show, i.e. breed clubs would run their Champ Shows along side the General Show.. Financial benefits to exhibitors and clubs.*

I can't see this working - logistically it would be incredibly difficult to get the timings right and as an exhibitor I'd be forever worried about missing my classes.
*
3. Core breeds (i.e. in stud book bands D and E) to be allocated CCs at allgeneral championship shows*.

All scheduled breeds should have CC's at Champ Shows..otherwise they are just glorified Open shows.
*
4. Allowing people to enter Open and Limited shows on the day of the show itself? One article states this would be limited to age restricted and Open classes.*

Again this would be a logistical nightmare, how would the organisers know how many exhibitors would turn up ? It would be impossible to print a catalogue beforehand and therefore would make it much harder if not impossible to fill in the judges slips or write critiques ..

*5. The introduction of a Champion's class so the same people don't constantly win CCs*

Hmmm......don't think this would work either, yes it would mean the current big winner being moved out of the way but surely they would simply be replaced with the latest hopeful from the top breeders for you to stand behind !

*6. Benching at all shows to be scrapped.*

Yep - never use it and it takes up vast acres of room that could be used for the crates , trolleys and grooming tables that most exhibitors now prefer. It's a relic of the early days of dog showing that is allowed to continue due to the influence of the Benching companies on the KC

Some other stuff I'd like to see:


All dogs graded as is done under the FCI system , it's a nonsense that you can
pay £25 entry fee, drive hundreds of miles, show your dog and get home at the end of the day with no idea what the judge thought !.

Less all rounders judging , I'm pig sick of the same charmed circle officiating al all the general Champ shows.

Less emphasis on the group and 'top' this or that , it just encourages breeding for over flashy ' group winning' type over correct breed type.

Supported Open shows where breeds are judged only by those on the breed clubs B or C lists, how else can our upcoming new judges get the experience or numbers they need ?

Oh and on a personal level I want more Champ shows here in the East...we only have East of England and Boston over here with a disproportionately large number of shows held in the West of the Country !


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Interesting thoughts, Bijou! 

I totally agree with you about the FCI system. It would be great to get an idea of what the judge thought of your dog rather than going away with no idea. 

Also agree about Champ shows in the east!


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Bijou said:


> [*]Oh and on a personal level I want more Champ shows here in the East...we only have East of England and Boston over here with a disproportionately large number of shows held in the West of the Country !
> [/LIST]


That's also true of the South/North divide. There seem to be many more shows held at least 5 hours away from me on the South Coast.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Just to add IKC do have champ classes and it does work! Free's places in open classes for other dogs to come through and be able to challenge certainly doesn't demerit the CC, it's harder to become a champ in shows run under FCI rules while they might get annual titles it's 7 GS to be a champ opposed to 3 CC's.

Never been to a benched show here either and utterly hate benched shows and those to tether dogs and then leave them


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

AlbertRoss said:


> That's also true of the South/North divide. There seem to be many more shows held at least 5 hours away from me on the South Coast.


Try living in the West Country !!!!! Apart from Paignton everywhere is a major trek because the roads are a nightmare not necessarily the distance.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Bijou said:


> [*]Oh and on a personal level I want more Champ shows here in the East...we only have East of England and Boston over here with a disproportionately large number of shows held in the West of the Country !
> [/LIST]


Just a guess, but I suppose that is due to location of venues. The KC site is pretty central of the country and then there is the NEC other than those two most Champ shows and many opens I have been to are held at Livestock Showgrounds and it would follow that there are more of these in parts of the country that traditionally farm animals. If you look at maps of land use there is a massive divide between the East and West of the country and what type of farming there is. There doesn't appear to be the need for many livestock showgrounds in the East. There is also the question of access. Major roads seem to be better in the central and west and north regions.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Emmastace said:


> Try living in the West Country !!!!! Apart from Paignton everywhere is a major trek because the roads are a nightmare not necessarily the distance.


Try living in Northern Ireland........................ Normally means a trek across the sea to get to KC Champ shows  and Dublin for IKC ones....


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I doubt if anyone could get to many shows easily! 

Perhaps some living in the middle of the country fare better, but those Living in the extremities will always find it difficult.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Shall we all move and take over Leicester en-masse to make it Dog Show capitol UK ........ Nah, just remembered my eldest son lives there and it took me 25 years to convince him to leave home so I won't be moving in down the road from him however convenient it is as a central show spot


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

I think it would be better if the number of Champ shows wasn't so limited. It seems a bit bizarre to me that a small, localised, breed club can hold a champ show and thus 'eat up' the number of ccs available in any one year when it may only attract a tiny number of entries. Equally, some 'general' clubs hold quite big open shows, which could easily be upgraded to champ shows.

I don't agree that the KC cc is anything special or any better than any other country's award. That's just KC bulsh*t. Indeed, if it were true there wouldn't be so many high-ranking 'foreign' dogs winning ccs at Crufts. However, the really sad bottom line is that no change in any showing will come without the KC doing something about it. As the KC has, time and again, shown it simply does not represent the vast majority of people showing I'm afraid that any change will be miniscule and be solely at the whim of a few KC members.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> I think it would be better if the number of Champ shows wasn't so limited. It seems a bit bizarre to me that a small, localised, breed club can hold a champ show and thus 'eat up' the number of ccs available in any one year when it may only attract a tiny number of entries. Equally, some 'general' clubs hold quite big open shows, which could easily be upgraded to champ shows.


How many more champ shows do you want? There are 26 general champ shows, then there are group champ shows such as UK Toy Dog, National Terrier, Hound Assc of Scotland, Scottish Breeds, National Working & Pastoral, Hound Association, Natinall Gundog Association, Working & Pastoral Breeds of Wales, Gudog Soc of Wales, Gundogs Breeds Assc of Scotalnd, and BUBA - and then there are the breed champ shows (we have 7 in border collies)

It is already absolutely inmpossible to go to every champ show, unless you are rich enough not to have to worry about spending vast amounts of money, or rich enough not to have to do that pesky thing called work instead of attending a couple of champ shows every week. Surely that is enough Champ shows for anyone?



AlbertRoss said:


> I don't agree that the KC cc is anything special or any better than any other country's award. That's just KC bulsh*t. Indeed, if it were true there wouldn't be so many high-ranking 'foreign' dogs winning ccs at Crufts.


If winning at the KC's supreme show was not viewed as extremely special, there would not be as many high ranking dogs from abroad being brought over to show there. If winning tickets at KC Champ shows was not viewed as something special, people from abroad would not be sending their dogs to be campaigned in this country.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> It is already absolutely inmpossible to go to every champ show, unless you are rich enough not to have to worry about spending vast amounts of money, or rich enough not to have to do that pesky thing called work instead of attending a couple of champ shows every week. Surely that is enough Champ shows for anyone?


Sounds like a lot - but not everyone has the resources (generally money) to go to that many shows. On average, going to shows within a day's travel where ccs are awarded for our type of dog costs about £150 a time - that includes entry/catalogue/car park. Most of the money goes on fuel. I live on the South Coast. Any show north of Birmingham is, to all intents and purposes, unavailable. And the same applies to shows in the far east or west. I imagine the same is true for most other people. Frankly, I think £150 is a lot of money to spend to turn up at a champ show and get a piece of coloured cardboard. So, yes, I want more so that they are more easily accessible.



> If winning at the KC's supreme show was not viewed as extremely special, there would not be as many high ranking dogs from abroad being brought over to show there. If winning tickets at KC Champ shows was not viewed as something special, people from abroad would not be sending their dogs to be campaigned in this country.


Silly, facile argument. People don't very often attend champs shows from abroad but they will campaign for Crufts. As they will for the top show in many other countries. No difference, nothing special about it at all. The only reason that we have this idiocy that we are somehow a 'cut above' is because Crufts was the first national show.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

If Ch shows had CC's for all breeds scheduled then there would be shows accessible to most of us throughout the country. In my breed we have tickets at LKA then nothing until the middle of May except for Crufts ....Manchester, Boston, WPBW and Welks have no tickets for Groens which means my youngster will be out of puppy having only had the opportunity to compete at ticket level in two shows !


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

AlbertRoss said:


> Sounds like a lot - but not everyone has the resources (generally money) to go to that many shows. On average, going to shows within a day's travel where ccs are awarded for our type of dog costs about £150 a time - that includes entry/catalogue/car park. Most of the money goes on fuel. I live on the South Coast. Any show north of Birmingham is, to all intents and purposes, unavailable. And the same applies to shows in the far east or west. I imagine the same is true for most other people. Frankly, I think £150 is a lot of money to spend to turn up at a champ show and get a piece of coloured cardboard. So, yes, I want more so that they are easily accessible.


That's like saying I want more West End Theatres in Cornwall!

The answer maybe for you to move to the middle of the country. Where we live dictates what facilities are available to us. Any sport can be expensive, and venues some distance away. I wouldn't want to see more Champ Shows, I think it would devalue them.

And if the bit of card represents a CC I'd count it money well spent! But I do agree that rosettes ought to be given at Champ shows - can't understand why they are not.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I agree with less of same old faces judging over and over again, and trying to bring down the costs somehow.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> That's like saying I want more West End Theatres in Cornwall!
> 
> The answer maybe for you to move to the middle of the country. Where we live dictates what facilities are available to us. Any sport can be expensive, and venues some distance away. I wouldn't want to see more Champ Shows, I think it would devalue them.
> 
> And if the bit of card represents a CC I'd count it money well spent! But I do agree that rosettes ought to be given at Champ shows - can't understand why they are not.


So everyone should move to the middle of the country? Bit of a daft suggestion. In most cases that bit of card isn't a CC. It's a class win, second, third.... Obviously, there's a competition for the CC but it's simply ludicrous for people to spend all that money to go to a show when the same old, same old dog (or handler) once again gets the ticket. If you've got 3 ccs you've got the title. You can't get any more of a title - but you can stop others even approaching it.

If there were more general champ shows, more evenly spread throughout the country then entries would go up. Because there would be more chances of success and the overall cost would come down. And it's a simple fact that a lot of champ shows have classes where ccs aren't awarded because the allocation of ccs is shared out amongst breed clubs as well. So, if this year's breed clubs all happen to be in Scotland that means that none of those opportunities are available to people living in the south. Does it happen? Yes, it does. The last 2 breed club shows where ccs were available for us were in North Wales and Yorkshire. From a time and expense point of view that meant 2 shows we couldn't possibly go to . Yet, several large champ shows in the South had no ccs for our breed. And they wonder why entries are falling!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Meh for me it's only a dog show lol Can't you tell I'm not the one in our family who shows, we have two KC champ shows in NI where CC's are on offer one breed one general, we do have IKC shows most a 2 hour drive away, I know before we leave which dogs will get the GS  and I care not a jot  We have a day out, Cian gets to say hello to his pals he usually gets a 1st 2nd or 3rd depending on the dogs there, again I know what dog will beat him, not because he's a better dog but strangely those placed above him have Irish handlers who give out GS's in all breeds. OH is a " face" in Scotland and UK but not in Ireland or NI and only judges Open shows.... ( call my a cynic lol ) :hand: we come home with a bit of card after a 4 hour round trip.... Meh it is what it is.............. OH enjoys it Cian has fun, and I don't love showing enough to be able to justify getting a ferry and paying accommodation for CC's. Guess you have to be thankful for what you do have, if you have the time and money it's easier to travel to a lot of CC shows in England alone, and even the odd few in Scotland or Wales if you are over there, if you are in NI then you are a bit more restricted.

Enjoy what you have, if you don't have it do something about it or don't, if you don't do something yourself about it then get on with it and enjoy what you do have....... Showing is taken farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr to seriously by some... Can't understand people doing something and then complaining about it all the time lol lol 


I am thankful we are taking a break from showing


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Meezey said:


> OH is a " face" in Scotland and UK but not in Ireland or NI


My OH isn't a 'face' anywhere  or for anything  not even crimewatch


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Emmastace said:


> My OH isn't a 'face' anywhere  or for anything  not even crimewatch


It was a bit tongue in cheek it does make me chuckle, if he was placed in Scotland no doubt it would be a "facey" judge :hand: this is the thing if either of us were than bothered about it or just getting his CC's we wouldn't show at all...

My OH looks like he should be on Crimewatch though lol lol


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I am thankful we are taking a break from showing


We've stopped entirely. I've got better things to do with £150 than turn up at a show to watch a BOB given to a dog that could hardly walk but whose owner happened to be the chairman of a club the judge was secretary of. Or a judge who was awarding CCs to dogs so far away from the standard they could have been a different breed. (Faces again).

We'll do other things with our dogs - preferably out of KC control.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Not every judge is facey! Sometimes dogs just don't get the places because the judge had a different opinion of the dogs to the owners. It's all subjective.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> Not every judge is facey! Sometimes dogs just don't get the places because the judge had a different opinion of the dogs to the owners. It's all subjective.


That can be true. But, of the 4 shows this year I could have attended I picked the BOB, in advance, for each one - simply on the basis of who the judge was and who the owner was. I could even pick, now, the dog that will go BOB at Crufts next year in our breed (and it's not because it's a good dog).


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

AlbertRoss said:


> That can be true. But, of the 4 shows this year I could have attended I picked the BOB, in advance, for each one - simply on the basis of who the judge was and who the owner was. I could even pick, now, the dog that will go BOB at Crufts next year in our breed (and it's not because it's a good dog).


But how do you know it's not a good dog? Have you had your hands on him to examine him the same way a judge does?

Judges do prefer different types - if your type doesn't match the judges interpretation of the breed standard, then you're not going to be highly placed.

My bitch has an old fashioned look to her, or so I've been told. Most judges prefer the newer look of the breed. So I lose out until I meet an old fashioned judge. I just accept that.

Not saying you're completely wrong, but I can't agree you're completely right either.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> Sounds like a lot - but not everyone has the resources (generally money) to go to that many shows. On average, going to shows within a day's travel where ccs are awarded for our type of dog costs about £150 a time - that includes entry/catalogue/car park. Most of the money goes on fuel. I live on the South Coast. Any show north of Birmingham is, to all intents and purposes, unavailable. And the same applies to shows in the far east or west. I imagine the same is true for most other people. Frankly, I think £150 is a lot of money to spend to turn up at a champ show and get a piece of coloured cardboard. So, yes, I want more so that they are more easily accessible.


If you can go to any show south of Birmingham you have several champ shows to go to - Bournemouth, Paignton, Richmond, City of Birmingham, WELKS, LKA, National Woring & Pastoral, Three Counties, Southern Counties, East of England - so the number of champ shows is not what's wrong; it's probably the fact that CCs are not on offer for your breed at all of these champ shows.

Whether you want to spend money on showing your dog or not is a different matter entirely - from your derisory comment about it all being for "a bit of coloured cardboard" I would suspect that you don't. I don't show my dogs "for a bit of coloured cardboard" - for me, a dog show is a day out with like minded friends; it's a social occasion where people and dogs meet up, have a good time, and - sometimes - end up winning a competition. Yes, it's great when you win. But if you are beaten by a better dog, there is no disgrace in that, and certainly nio need to start throwing your toys out of the pram and accusing judges left right and centre.



AlbertRoss said:


> Silly, facile argument. People don't very often attend champs shows from abroad but they will campaign for Crufts. As they will for the top show in many other countries. No difference, nothing special about it at all. The only reason that we have this idiocy that we are somehow a 'cut above' is because Crufts was the first national show.


As usual, you are talking through the proverbial. People do attend champ shows from abroad and they do send dogs over to be campaigned at champ shows - there are several in our breed at the moment (border collies). They would not do that if they did not feel that the cost of doing so was worth the award. Crufts is held world-wide as THE show to win - otherwise why woudl all these dogs from abroad be there?.



AlbertRoss said:


> The last 2 breed club shows where ccs were available for us were in North Wales and Yorkshire. From a time and expense point of view that meant 2 shows we couldn't possibly go to . Yet, several large champ shows in the South had no ccs for our breed. And they wonder why entries are falling!


So I was right - it is the allocation of CCs that is the problem.



BessieDog said:


> Not every judge is facey! Sometimes dogs just don't get the places because the judge had a different opinion of the dogs to the owners. It's all subjective.


It's true that some judges are facey, but in the majority of cases where you hear people complaining about this it is usually because they can't stomach the fact that their dog has been beaten by a better dog.

Don't know if it's the same in other breeds as it is in border collies, but the few "facey" type judges in our breed are finding that their entries are falling dramatically - no-one these days can afford to enter under a judge where they won't be judged fairly.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> If you can go to any show south of Birmingham you have several champ shows to go to - Bournemouth, Paignton, Richmond, City of Birmingham, WELKS, LKA, National Woring & Pastoral, Three Counties, Southern Counties, East of England - so the number of champ shows is not what's wrong; it's probably the fact that CCs are not on offer for your breed at all of these champ shows.
> 
> Whether you want to spend money on showing your dog or not is a different matter entirely - from your derisory comment about it all being for "a bit of coloured cardboard" I would suspect that you don't. I don't show my dogs "for a bit of coloured cardboard" - for me, a dog show is a day out with like minded friends; it's a social occasion where people and dogs meet up, have a good time, and - sometimes - end up winning a competition. Yes, it's great when you win. But if you are beaten by a better dog, there is no disgrace in that, and certainly nio need to start throwing your toys out of the pram and accusing judges left right and centre.


I have never had a problem about being beaten by a better dog. Nor have I a problem when a judge decides that a dog is, in his opinion, closer to the breed standard than mine. I DO have a problem when - a dog that is lame comes top of his class and then gets a ticket. I DO have a problem when a judge writes a critique which starts off with him saying that because the handler was known to him he expected the dog on the end of the lead to be a particular dog - and was surprised when it wasn't. The 'dog' in question was a bitch!! I DO have a problem when arguably the worst dog in the breed at a show gets a ticket (not in my opinion but that of ALL the other competitors, including several breed judges). In each case - it's face, not dog



> As usual, you are talking through the proverbial. People do attend champ shows from abroad and they do send dogs over to be campaigned at champ shows - there are several in our breed at the moment (border collies). They would not do that if they did not feel that the cost of doing so was worth the award. Crufts is held world-wide as THE show to win - otherwise why woudl all these dogs from abroad be there?.


It's very rare for entries in champ shows to be from abroad. That may not be true in collies but it certainly is in other breeds. And, yes, Crufts is a top show - so is the Westminster.



> So I was right - it is the allocation of CCs that is the problem.


No, it's just part of the problem



> It's true that some judges are facey, but in the majority of cases where you hear people complaining about this it is usually because they can't stomach the fact that their dog has been beaten by a better dog.


Twaddle. I've been very happy having my dog lose out to better dogs - when they are better dogs. It's not about 'some' judges being facey - it's the fact that a very large proportion are. And that's precisely why I can pick out next year's Crufts winner in my breed without knowing what the entries are.



> Don't know if it's the same in other breeds as it is in border collies, but the few "facey" type judges in our breed are finding that their entries are falling dramatically - no-one these days can afford to enter under a judge where they won't be judged fairly.


Certainly in our breed we are keeping track of facey judges and we have a closed list of exhibitors who are told before each show if the judge is 'straight'.

However, one such straight judge told me that a few days before judging she received a telephone call offering her a new dog van or an expensive holiday if a certain dog got the ticket. When she declined she was 'subtlety' threatened. Sadly, she couldn't record the call.

And, strangely enough, we've subsequently seen a few judges, who could normally be relied on to be straight, award honours to one particular kennel that previously they wouldn't have given reserve places to. One judge, long retired from work and known to complain about his impoverished state, was due to judge a major show. He withdrew on 'health' grounds - he wasn't going to be able to stand for the duration of the show because he had a serious chronic illness. A week later he took delivery of a new caravan and, shortly after that, a puppy from a 'top' kennel. That same kennel supplied the winner at the show he didn't judge.

With this sort of thing going on is it any wonder that entries are dropping?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> . One judge, long retired from work and known to complain about his impoverished state, was due to judge a major show. He withdrew on 'health' grounds - he wasn't going to be able to stand for the duration of the show because he had a serious chronic illness. A week later he took delivery of a new caravan and, shortly after that, a puppy from a 'top' kennel. That same kennel supplied the winner at the show he didn't judge.
> 
> With this sort of thing going on is it any wonder that entries are dropping?


Hang on a sec; let me get this straight - a judge withdrew from judging on ill health; and he had a puppy fom a kennel whose dog won *at the show he didn't judge* - what's your point?

Am I missing something here? You seem to be saying that he was bribed - that this kennel bought him a caravan and gave him a puppy - but why would they bribe someone who was not judging? And if he wasn't the judge, what has the fact that he happened to have a puppy from the same kennel as the dog that won got to do with anything?

Have you any idea how ridiculous your accusation sounds?

Do you seriously wonder why people who spread gossip like that get accused of sour grapes?


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Hang on a sec; let me get this straight - a judge withdrew from judging on ill health; and he had a puppy fom a kennel whose dog won *at the show he didn't judge* - what's your point?
> 
> Am I missing something here? You seem to be saying that he was bribed - that this kennel bought him a caravan and gave him a puppy - but why would they bribe someone who was not judging? And if he wasn't the judge, what has the fact that he happened to have a puppy from the same kennel as the dog that won got to do with anything?
> 
> ...


I struggled with all that too 

With the best will in the world, how could bribery to that extent ever become cost effective for anyone. I would be really interested to know what breed attracts exhibitors with a level of income that allows them to offer dog vans and caravans as bribes. I think I would be getting myself on that breeds judging list pdq


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Emmastace said:


> I struggled with all that too
> 
> With the best will in the world, how could bribery to that extent ever become cost effective for anyone. I would be really interested to know what breed attracts exhibitors with a level of income that allows them to offer dog vans and caravans as bribes. *I think I would be getting myself on that breeds judging list pdq*


Yeah, me too! You wouldn't even have to judge - according to AlbertRoss you get given caravans and puppies willy nilly for not judging! :lol:

Hey - think of all the shows I've not judged at (ie every single show ever) - someone, somewhere, owes me many caravans and many puppies! :lol: :lol:


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Hang on a sec; let me get this straight - a judge withdrew from judging on ill health; and he had a puppy fom a kennel whose dog won *at the show he didn't judge* - what's your point?
> 
> Am I missing something here? You seem to be saying that he was bribed - that this kennel bought him a caravan and gave him a puppy - but why would they bribe someone who was not judging? And if he wasn't the judge, what has the fact that he happened to have a puppy from the same kennel as the dog that won got to do with anything?
> 
> ...


They wanted the judge to stand down as the replacement judge was a 'face' judge. And, whilst bribery would be hard to prove, the fact that he suddenly got a brand new caravan and a gift puppy from the same kennel who tried to bribe the other judge I mentioned tells its own story.

He seems to have made a remarkable recovery from his ill-heath. His supposedly chronic illness which meant he would be unable to stand for any length of time (and which would have shortened his lifespan considerably) seems to have vanished. Well, at least it doesn't seem to have affected his exhibiting his own dogs at subsequent shows where he is quite able to stand all day unaided.

As to why it's possible to offer such things - 1. The wealth of the kennel owner and 2. Dogs in our breed from champion stock can be sold abroad to certain countries for 250,000 Euros each. A litter of 8 would be worth 2 million. That's not exaggerated. It's a simple fact. Some dogs from top European kennels can be sold for far more - and have been.

There is more to this which adds to the overall story about that particular kennel which I'm not going to put on here. It is, however, the case that if that kennel is known to exhibit only a few people will now turn up to compete. That, in turn, makes showing a mockery and hands the kennel even more success.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm off to Google who Judges the Tibetan Mastiff and how I get to be one cos that's the only breed I have so far heard off that commands that kind of money....and then only specific colours. But hey, I don't need to know that cos I wouldn't actually have to leave my chair to Judge.


Ha - there is only four and they are close together geographically - I'm going to take a trip out and see which one has a caravan in their drive.

APOLOGIES - Just realised this thread has been hijacked. Back to subject now......forgive me Bessiedog


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> They wanted the judge to stand down as the replacement judge was a 'face' judge. And, whilst bribery would be hard to prove, the fact that he suddenly got a brand new caravan and a gift puppy from the same kennel who tried to bribe the other judge I mentioned tells its own story.
> 
> He seems to have made a remarkable recovery from his ill-heath. His supposedly chronic illness which meant he would be unable to stand for any length of time (and which would have shortened his lifespan considerably) seems to have vanished. Well, at least it doesn't seem to have affected his exhibiting his own dogs at subsequent shows where he is quite able to stand all day unaided.
> 
> ...


If any of this is true then it should be reported to not only the Kennel Club, but also the police (what you are describing sounds criminal). The fact that it hasn't makes me think it is a fabrication arising from sour grapes.

It could all be circumstantial. I have arthritis. Some days I can't even get out of bed; some days I can show dogs.

As for dogs of championship stock selling abroad for such high prices - doesn't that rather refute your argument that KC qualifications are meaningless pieces of coloured cardboard? Doesn't a litter of £2 million mean that your £150 to attend a show in order to get that piece of coloured cardboard is mere peanuts? If that iwas really the case, wouldn't entry figures for GSDs at champ shows in any part of the country be going through the roof?


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> If any of this is true then it should be reported to not only the Kennel Club, but also the police (what you are describing sounds criminal). The fact that it hasn't makes me think it is a fabrication arising from sour grapes.


How do you know it hasn't? You jump to too many conclusions.

Having said that I've seen complaints made to the KC with hard evidence, including video, of malpractice and watch them say that the proof wasn't sufficient.



> I have arthritis. Some days I can't even get out of bed; some days I can show dogs.


The illness I'm referring to is somewhat more serious (in that it's usual fatal comparatively soon after diagnosis). Yet by some miracle it seems to have gone.



> As for dogs of championship stock selling abroad for such high prices - doesn't that rather refute your argument that KC qualifications are meaningless pieces of coloured cardboard?


Not at all. If your dog can collect 3 CCs and get made up then there's a lot of value. As a stud dog he'll command high fees. If he's a Crufts winner or a Westminster winner he'll command high fees. If a bitch, her puppies will sell for higher amounts. That's true of all breeds. Not only will a dog command high stud fees, he'll also be very likely to stand to a large number of bitches. Hence my remark about the Hungarian Vizla earlier. I have records of one dog which, apparently, over the course of one year stood to over 250 bitches. At today's stud fees of about £800 or more that's £200,000. Would it be worth someone unscrupulous investing in getting his dog to the top? Certainly would.

BUT if you don't get a CC all you get is a bit of coloured cardboard. You may win a class but not win the challenge. You get a bit of cardboard. Outside of getting 3 ccs all you have is a collection of cardboard.


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