# Siamese Genetics



## Leslie49 (Sep 7, 2019)

Hi me again. Still trying to get things clear in my mind.... !!! I’m posting because I don’t know the answer. So, its not helpful if you tell me I should know the answer....! ☺
So, here goes. I was approached at a show to join a certain Siamese cat club. We got chatting and somehow got around to talking about colours etc. My understanding was... and yes you already know that I know very little... however I was sure I was right on this particular point. Genetically a Seal Point Siamese is the same as if it was black. Before you all start rushing to tell me.... I know Black doesn’t exist in Siamese as the Siamese gene lightens black to seal. Am I correct so far before I continue?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

To quote Langford:

"The Colour gene (Tyrosinase, TYR) has four alleles (C, cs, cb and c). The wild-type allele (C) is dominant and produces full colouration. The cs and cb mutations cause_ temperature sensitive pigment production_ that is characteristic of Siamese colourpoint and Burmese colouration, respectively. The c allele is rare and causes full albino colour.

Two copies of the Siamese allele (cs) are required for Siamese colouration. The Siamese mutation restricts the pigmentation to the points."

Colour is restricted to the points because they are cooler.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Seal is black. The hair can look a paler brown because there is usually a lighter base due to the way the colourpoint gene works, but the hair is definitely black.


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## Leslie49 (Sep 7, 2019)

Tigermoon said:


> Seal is black. The hair can look a paler brown because there is usually a lighter base due to the way the colourpoint gene works, but the hair is definitely black.


Absolutely what I thought. This person said chocolate was the dilute of seal. However I think blue is the dilute of seal? And chocolate carries a different gene altogether.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Leslie49 said:


> Absolutely what I thought. This person said chocolate was the dilute of seal. However I think blue is the dilute of seal? And chocolate carries a different gene altogether.


I seem to recall someone on the forum once explaining that there was only Black and Red and the rest were all dilutions or modifiers of those two colours. It was a long time ago and I can't remember who said it now.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

So one of the genetic test labs says this:

Brown
The Brown (tyrosinase-related protein-1, TYRP1) gene affects the amount of black (eumelanin) pigment produced. Mutations responsible for brown and cinnamon colors in the cat have been identified in this gene. The wild-type B allele produces normal, black coloration. The b allele produces the brown (chocolate) phenotype and the bl allele produces a light brown or cinnamon phenotype.

Dilute
The _dilute_ gene (_Melanophilin_ or _MLPH_) causes clumping and uneven distribution of pigment granules in the hair shaft, producing dilution of all coat colors. Dilute is an autosomal recessive trait which means that two copies of the dilute allele are needed to produce the phenotype. Black pigment is diluted to gray (*blue* is the term used by cat breeders), and red is diluted to *cream*.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Chocolate is a recessive to black, blue is a dilution to black


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Chocolate and lilac can be very confusing to anyone new to colour genetics. We refer to chocolate as being 'carried' and to some this translates into being a recessive colour and therefore the dilute of black.

Then you try explaining that your, for example, Blue BSH carries chocolate which further reinforces the belief that chocolate is dilute!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Leslie49 said:


> Hi me again. Still trying to get things clear in my mind.... !!! I'm posting because I don't know the answer. So, its not helpful if you tell me I should know the answer....! ☺
> So, here goes. I was approached at a show to join a certain Siamese cat club. We got chatting and somehow got around to talking about colours etc. My understanding was... and yes you already know that I know very little... however I was sure I was right on this particular point. Genetically a Seal Point Siamese is the same as if it was black. Before you all start rushing to tell me.... I know Black doesn't exist in Siamese as the Siamese gene lightens black to seal. Am I correct so far before I continue?


I would love to know which breed club it was and what exactly was the objection to the idea of seal being the Siamese expression of the black gene.

I think there is great confusion generally between colours and patterns. A sealpoint Siamese is a black colour but with the restriction of colour to the points which is a pattern.

Dominance is such an important factor and is often misunderstood. There are three cat colours all at the same locus. Black is the wild type as mentioned before and is dominant to both chocolate and cinnamon which are the mutations. Chocolate is dominant to cinnamon. All cats have two colour genes, one inherited from each parent.

Dilution has already been mentioned as changing the appearance of the basic colour genes not replacing them.

Similarly the red gene and the white gene mask the basic colour genes but they are still present


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@Tigermoon you are correct, all cats are either red or black as there are only two different types of pigmentation eumelanin (black) and phoeamelanin (red). The other colour genes modify the expression of these colours. https://pawpeds.com/pawacademy/genetics/genetics/redorblack.html

The modifications at the B-locus Black, Chocolate and Cinnamon only affect the eumelanin pigment. So you can have a cat who has two chocolate genes who is red as that modification does not affect the phoemelanin pigment.


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## Leslie49 (Sep 7, 2019)

lillytheunicorn said:


> @Tigermoon you are correct, all cats are either red or black as there are only two different types of pigmentation eumelanin (black) and phoeamelanin (red). The other colour genes modify the expression of these colours. https://pawpeds.com/pawacademy/genetics/genetics/redorblack.html
> 
> The modifications at the B-locus Black, Chocolate and Cinnamon only affect the eumelanin pigment. So you can have a cat who has two chocolate genes who is red as that modification does not affect the phoemelanin pigment.


Thank you so much for this... you have made my day!! I'm just returning to breeding after a gap of many years. I've forgotten a lot of what I knew but was sure I was right on this point. The person who challenged me has been breeding for 30 years. So turns out I'm not as green as I thought.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Something to keep in mind, as well, is that red is epistatic (dependant on) to non-agouti, meaning that for a cat to be red, it also has to be a tabby.


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## Leslie49 (Sep 7, 2019)

QOTN said:


> I would love to know which breed club it was and what exactly was the objection to the idea of seal being the Siamese expression of the black gene.
> 
> I think there is great confusion generally between colours and patterns. A sealpoint Siamese is a black colour but with the restriction of colour to the points which is a pattern.
> 
> ...


I will not mention who this was but the conversation was about seal points vs chocolate points and who carried what etc. I said there's a chance she carries dilute as her father was blue. He then went on to say that chocolate was the dilute form of seal. To which I was stunned but wasn't confident enough to disagree.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Leslie49 said:


> I said there's a chance she carries dilute as her father was blue. He then went on to say that chocolate was the dilute form of seal.


Oh dear >>;; And this person say they're an experienced breeder of 30 years? Even as a hobbyist interested in cat genetics (and admittedly a bit of a human geneticist by profession, and, as a consequence, a bit of a genetics nerd), I know better >>;; Where does this person think Lilac and Blue come from???


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## Leslie49 (Sep 7, 2019)

Maurey said:


> Something to keep in mind, as well, is that red is epistatic (dependant on) to non-agouti, meaning that for a cat to be red, it also has to be a tabby.


My understanding of this is that although all red cats will "appear" tabby. Genetically they can be either.


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## Leslie49 (Sep 7, 2019)

Maurey said:


> Oh dear >>;; And this person say they're an experienced breeder of 30 years? Even as a hobbyist interested in cat genetics (and admittedly a bit of a human geneticist by profession, and, as a consequence, a bit of a genetics nerd), I know better >>;; Where does this person think Lilac and Blue come from???


Well it was kind of the end of the conversation as I was dumb struck!!


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Leslie49 said:


> My understanding of this is that although all red cats will "appear" tabby. Genetically they can be either.


This is true, yes! This is generally known as 'ghosting', and is also commonly seen in black cats who seem to have barring on the tail, or on the legs, though black cats often grow out of it, afaik c: All cats who are shown as 'red solid' (which, yes, is a classification, for some reason), are really minimally-expressed ticked cats, typically, at least based on some of the standards I've been reading. I don't really _understand_ why they need a category of their own, but I suppose the red tickies that pass for solids would have faults for markings as ticked cats lmao


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Maurey said:


> Something to keep in mind, as well, is that red is epistatic (dependant on) to non-agouti, meaning that for a cat to be red, it also has to be a tabby.


Not at all. I have two red solids (well a solid and a smoke) here, tabby is genetically impossible for them. I think what you mean is that one can see the tabby pattern more obviously in a red solid


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> I have two red solids (well a solid and a smoke) here, tabby is genetically impossible for them. I think what you mean is that one can see the tabby pattern more obviously in a red solid


It is, yes! I meant that they will typically have a lot of tabby ghosting, and that generally the cats that look solid will be minimally-expressed ticked cats.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Maurey said:


> It is, yes! I meant that they will typically have a lot of tabby ghosting, and that generally the cats that look solid will be minimally-expressed ticked cats.


No. Ticked is a tabby pattern and tabby is genetically impossible, neither parent is tabby. Neither of my kittens have a lot of tabby ghosting either, they're quite minimal as they should be.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> No. Ticked is a tabby pattern and tabby is genetically impossible, neither parent is tabby


I think we may be miscommunicating a bit. I'm saying that tabbies who are genetically red solid will generally have tabby ghosting (as far as I'm aware, due to the epistatic nature of red and non-agouti), making them look like they do have tabby. While cats who look solid, and may be shown as solid reds according to some breed standards are minimally-expressed cats with ticked tabby (or otherwise low-contrast cats, which can definitely come with the territory of ghosting).


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Maurey said:


> I think we may be miscommunicating a bit. I'm saying that tabbies who are genetically red solid will generally have tabby ghosting (as far as I'm aware, due to the epistatic nature of red and non-agouti), making them look like they do have tabby. While cats who look solid, and may be shown as solid reds according to some breed standards are minimally-expressed cats with ticked tabby.


Can't say I've ever seen a ticked tabby shown as a solid. Ticked still have very clear and defined tabby patterns as detailed in their breed standard. They are not a single, uniform, solid colour, which is the requirement of a solid. Hence the name solid.

Heavy ghost markings are not generally accepted in solids, red or otherwise. Some banding on the legs and some facial markings are acceptable but a solid should be a single uniform colour.


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> Can't say I've ever seen a ticked tabby shown as a solid. Ticked still have very clear and defined tabby patterns as detailed in their breed standard. They are not a single, uniform, solid colour, which is the requirement of a solid. Hence the name solid.
> 
> Heavy ghost markings are not generally accepted in solids, red or otherwise. Some banding on the legs and some facial markings are acceptable but a solid should be a single uniform colour.


Good to know! I'm slowly immersing myself into the show scene (and show standard) as I do have some interest in possibly starting a small hobby cattery in 5 to 10 years, but my knowledge of genetics of coat colour and phenotypic expression is mainly, well, in the genetics side of things. This has been educational, thank you!


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

For some reason the non agouti gene does not work as well on reds as it does on black cats, hence the ghosting. You can definitely get genetically red solid cats they are not dependent genes. 

In BSH non agouti (solid) reds can only be registered on the active register if they have a DNA test confirming they are genetically non agoutis with GCCF.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Maurey said:


> Good to know! I'm slowly immersing myself into the show scene (and show standard) as I do have some interest in possibly starting a small hobby cattery in 5 to 10 years, but my knowledge of genetics of coat colour and phenotypic expression is mainly, well, in the genetics side of things. This has been educational, thank you!


It's good that you're starting to immerse yourself, whilst understanding genotype is great it has to be alongside the expression and phenotype too.

A visual example is this:










The kitten on the left is from Unicum Maine Coon Cattey in Russia and is a ticked tabby. It is very obviously a tabby. It has a white muzzle, white goggles, white ear lining.

The kitten on the right is mine, he is a red solid. He is a uniform red across his face with very minimal ghosting that is continuing to grow out as he gets already. Already he is almost completely solid on his flank.










As you can see, there is are a number of differences between the two


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> It's good that you're starting to immerse yourself, whilst understanding genotype is great it has to be alongside the expression and phenotype too.
> As you can see, there is are a number of differences between the two


Much thanks! Amusingly enough, I'm most interested in focusing on breeding ticked (likely dilute) Maine Coons, if I ever get into a position where I can, so this is particularly useful  I'd love to see how your little one grows c:

I'm still not certain of the tabby status on my cream girl, actually. I was convinced that she was just a normal mackerel, but I was looking at her paperwork last night while I was filing it away, and her parents are registered MCO d, while she's MCO e, which, if I'm not mistaken, is indicative of solid?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Maurey said:


> Much thanks! Amusingly enough, I'm most interested in focusing on breeding ticked (likely dilute) Maine Coons, if I ever get into a position where I can, so this is particularly useful  I'd love to see how your little one grows c:
> 
> I'm still not certain of the tabby status on my cream girl, actually. I was convinced that she was just a normal mackerel, but I was looking at her paperwork last night while I was filing it away, and her parents are registered MCO d, while she's MCO e, which, if I'm not mistaken, is indicative of solid?


I wouldn't recommend breeding blue to blue over a number of generations as it affects the quality of the colour. Black is needed to ensure the coat remains sound.

Ticked is also not naturally in Maine Coons so they're quite controversial.

If both parents are solid, she can only he solid. If there are no 20s numbers (21-24) after her or her parents letter (d and e) then all are solid


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Sorry @Leslie49, I seem to have taken over the thread I bit which wasnt my intention :Bag


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Maurey said:


> Something to keep in mind, as well, is that red is epistatic (dependant on) to non-agouti, meaning that for a cat to be red, it also has to be a tabby.


No. Agouti and Red are inherited completely independently. However the Red colour isn't affected or affected much by non-agouti, so most red cats look like tabby cats even when genetically they are not - they are non-agouti.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Maurey said:


> <snip>
> All cats who are shown as 'red solid' (which, yes, is a classification, for some reason), are really minimally-expressed ticked cats
> <snip>


No, BSH classic tabby based red self cats have been shown for a long time, but only recently has ticked tabby been accepted.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> I wouldn't recommend breeding blue to blue over a number of generations as it affects the quality of the colour. *Black is needed to ensure the coat remains sound.*
> <snip>


According to who?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> According to who?


A number of experienced judges and breeders across Persians, Burmese, Russian Blues, Maine Coons, British, I cant remember the rest off the top of my head


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> A number of experienced judges and breeders across Persians, Burmese, Russian Blues, Maine Coons, British, I cant remember the rest off the top of my head


Russian Blues are the perfect example of a sound blue cat with nothing but blue cats in the pedigree for many, many generations. Korats as well, though they are regrettably rare these days. Also Chartreux.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> Russian Blues are the perfect example of a sound blue cat with nothing but blue cats in the pedigree for many, many generations. Korats as well, though they are regrettably rare these days. Also Chartreux.


Perhaps you should take that up with the breeder judge that advised me differently as clearly you know more than she.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I have heard of not breeding silver to silver regularly as it is an inhibitor gene but not dilute to dilute.

In practice I am not sure that it is true about silvers. Norwegian silvers used to be fine boned which is no longer the case, I was told that that was due to breeding for colour when silvers were rare rather than type. You see this often in Amber Norwegians now where breeders have bred for the colour rather than the type.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Leslie49 said:


> I will not mention who this was but the conversation was about seal points vs chocolate points and who carried what etc. I said there's a chance she carries dilute as her father was blue. He then went on to say that chocolate was the dilute form of seal. To which I was stunned but wasn't confident enough to disagree.


I was more interested in which club but you have certainly narrowed the field by mentioning a 'he' who has been breeding 30 years!

There is not just a chance your girl carries dilute. She must. Dilute is recessive so her sire had two dilute genes so she must have inherited one.

This thread has certainly thrown up some confusing replies. All cats have tabby patterns which are inherited independently of the Agouti gene. The way the red gene masks the colour underneath causes the tabby pattern to show to a greater or lesser extent. In GCCF a red cat with a tabby parent will be registered as a tabby unless it is shown by a DNA test to be non-agouti. Conversely since the Agouti gene is dominant, no tabby can be registered to self parents.

The cats with the soundest cats are usually black but I am not sure how that could translate into advice not to breed blue to blue. What is the reasoning behind that advice? If the appropriate polygenes are present it should be possible to breed dilute cats with sound coats. I have bred fawn to fawn with no black for many generations and whatever faults my cats may have had, they always had sound coats.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> In GCCF a red cat with a tabby parent will be registered as a tabby unless it is shown by a DNA test to be non-agouti.


This is breed specific. Red Maine Coons do not require a test to be registered as solid.



QOTN said:


> The cats with the soundest cats are usually black but I am not sure how that could translate into advice not to breed blue to blue. What is the reasoning behind that advice?


The genetics behind it was not explained to me, but was confirmed by a number of breeders and judges.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I have heard lots of judges remark that blue coats are often softer in my breed so it’s harder to get a good coat quality. Though this soft coat can be bred out. I have blues from long lines of dilutes and they have got good quality coats. 

A breeder of some of the best Norwegians in Europe imported a brown tabby stud cat who had a terrible coat who’s kittens and their kittens used to have a coat more like a Maine Coon than a Norwegian. In the end they neutered him and his offspring as they were struggling to get the correct coat. 

My caveat is that often old wives tales get passed from breeder to breeder. This is given as gospel without any explanation backing it up. For example, you may remember my Blue. When she was booked for a c-section and spay at the same time I was told by a lot of breeders I respect that she shouldn’t be spayed at the same time as her c-section as she won’t have any milk. I discussed this with the vets at the practice and they went through the process of milk production and how it wouldn’t be affected by the spay. The fact many c-sections in cats are done as an emergency who are unwell by the time they are sectioned is more of the reason why people’s cats haven’t had milk rather than they were spayed. Also some
Vets insist on putting iodine over the whole abdomen which means the kittens can’t find the nipples so the kittens do not stimulate the milk production.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> This is breed specific. Red Maine Coons do not require a test to be registered as solid.


Regardless of breed, any red, cream or apricot cat with a tabby parent or parents will be registered by the gccf as tabby unless proved otherwise otherwise by DNA test. Raven is not tabby, the father is not tabby so your red kitten is red self despite his tabby markings. Gccf will not register a kitten as tabby unless it has at least one tabby parent


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> A number of experienced judges and breeders across Persians, Burmese, Russian Blues, Maine Coons, British, I cant remember the rest off the top of my head


Rufus, you can drop BSH from that list  It's a fallacy.

I sincerely do not mean to patronise and I applaud how much, for a newer breeder, you have immersed yourself in learning about your breed.

One day you will reflect and realise that some of those revered breeders and judges were talking a load of twaddle and they talk twaddle because they never managed to look or think beyond the twaddle that they, too, were taught.

Breeding cats is fraught with old wives tales and its quite remarkable how long many of them persist!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

It's been an interesting discussion


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Rufus, you can drop BSH from that list  It's a fallacy.
> 
> I sincerely do not mean to patronise and I applaud how much, for a newer breeder, you have immersed yourself in learning about your breed.
> 
> ...


Nail, hammer, head.


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## Siameezers (Mar 17, 2018)

I always love reading these threads on genetics! I purchased Robinson's genetics for cat breeders, but to be honest it might as well have been written in chinese for all I have been able to understand of it. So hearing it more in layman's terms is definitely helpful! 

I read somewhere that lilac Siamese have more recessive genes than any other cat, is this true? Because the colorpoint gene is recessive and so is chocolate and dilute.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Siameezers said:


> I read somewhere that lilac Siamese have more recessive genes than any other cat, is this true? Because the colorpoint gene is recessive and so is chocolate and dilute.


The fawnpoint Siamese could be said to be more recessive because it is also dilute and Siamese plus its cinnamon base colour is recessive to chocolate. (You can have a chocolate with one chocolate gene and one cinnamon gene but you cannot have a cinnamon cat without two cinnamon genes.)


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

By my calculations the most recessive coloured cat would be an albino Siamese (recessive white colour point gene) who was also genetically fawn.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> By my calculations the most recessive coloured cat would be an albino Siamese (recessive white colour point gene) who was also genetically fawn.


A fawn or fawn-point cat can't be an albino. Are you thinking of a fawn-point carrying recessive white? It will look just like a normal fawn-point, and although recessive white is in some very early pedigrees I believe it's been cleared from the gene pool.


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## Siameezers (Mar 17, 2018)

Interesting! Thank you for your replies!


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

The albino white could be genetically cinnamon and dilute gene just not express the fawn colouring.

C>Cs>c so would need both parents to carry albino. If memory serves me correctly it was a mother to son mating that produced the albino white.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

More on recessive white from Messybeast: http://messybeast.com/recessive-white.htm


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> The albino white could carry the cinnamon and dilute gene just not express the fawn colouring.
> 
> C>Cs>c so would need both parents to carry albino. If memory serves me correctly it was a mother to son mating that produced the albino white.


Ah so a recessive white that's also got genes for dilute & cinnamon. A recessive white was imported from the US. Unsurprisingly she was somewhat inbred.

https://pawpeds.com/db/?a=p&id=126517&g=4&p=sia&o=ajgrep


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> Perhaps you should take that up with the breeder judge that advised me differently as clearly you know more than she.


You are still too new to realise that breeder-judges don't know everything, and in fact a lot of them know more myths than facts. 
Persians are also a perfect example of colour bred cats, with breeders sticking to just one colour to improve it down the generations. 'Blue' is probably one of the most colour-bred ones in the cat fancy.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Breeding cats is fraught with old wives tales and its quite remarkable how long many of them persist!


This would make a great thread ... feline old wives tails and whether there is an element of truth or it's complete garbage long since disproved by the tide of progress.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@OrientalSlave that must have been the cat I as think about.

Personally I am not a fan of albino's I used to breed rabbits and we had often used to get albino whites out of matings. They always had the best temperaments though but couldn't be shown.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> This would make a great thread ... feline old wives tails and whether there is an element of truth or it's complete garbage long since disproved by the tide of progress.


I agree that would be a fantastic thread. Though I am not sure we wouldn't just all end up arguing though


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

lillytheunicorn said:


> By my calculations the most recessive coloured cat would be an albino Siamese (recessive white colour point gene) who was also genetically fawn.


Well, it is conceivable that somewhere in the UK there* might* be two fawnpoint Siamese carrying blue-eyed recessive white but most if not all cinnamon lines are no longer overstamped 'may carry recessive white.' We all have Anart's Miiko in our pedigrees because Maureen Silson who bred the first cinnamon was investigating the whites at the same time. However it is highly unlikely to occur because big efforts were made to clear all the cinnamon lines and it *was* an effort because there were no DNA tests available at the time. I do know of some other Oriental lines which were not cleared until comparatively recently so theoretically it is possible but highly unlikely that two such fawnpoints would be mated together. In any case fawnpoints are akin to hens' teeth these days.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Decided to look up my rabbit colour genetics and I used to breed Smoke pearl and smoke pearl Martens which translates into cat colouring as blue Siamese and blue Siamese tabby points. The red eyed white (albino) is recessive to Siamese pointing located on the c-locus too. We must have had a lot more of the albino recessive in our gene pool.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Decided to look up my rabbit colour genetics and I used to breed Smoke pearl and smoke pearl Martens which translates into cat colouring as blue Siamese and blue Siamese tabby points. The red eyed white (albino) is recessive to Siamese pointing located on the c-locus too. We must have had a lot more of the albino recessive in our gene pool.


The famous Julia May bred a lot of blue-eyed recessive whites and found they were as healthy as other cats but there was too much prejudice against them to be recognised as a breed. Then she turned her attention to investigating the longhair gene which also got into the cinnamon lines at about the same time. Hence the Oriental longhair.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

QOTN said:


> The famous Julia May bred a lot of blue-eyed recessive whites and found they were as healthy as other cats but there was too much prejudice against them to be recognised as a breed. Then she turned her attention to investigating the longhair gene which also got into the cinnamon lines at about the same time. Hence the Oriental longhair.


I had a quick look down the offspring of the cat you put the pawpeds link too and I spotted a couple of cat I recognised, as I have an interest in Siamese/orientals.

I wanted a black oriental as my first pedigree but hubby wanted a ginger fluffy cat. There were few Balinese out on the show circuit then or maybe I didn't notice them then as certainly one of the famous Balinese's now tends to hide in his pen.
So we ended up with a black and white Norwegian and the rest is history


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> @OrientalSlave that must have been the cat I as think about.
> 
> Personally I am not a fan of albino's I used to breed rabbits and we had often used to get albino whites out of matings. They always had the best temperaments though but couldn't be shown.


Recessive white isn't recognised by the GCCF either, and I don't think any are coming along now.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

They aren’t recognised by FIFe either.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Someone put me out of my misery and tell me please...what is blue eyed recessive white?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> Someone put me out of my misery and tell me please...what is blue eyed recessive white?


It is at the locus where full colour is dominant, then comes Burmese colour restriction partially dominant to Siamese colour restriction, next there is blue-eyed recessive white before full albino.

Unfortunately as has already been stated, Anart's Miiko was imported by Maureen Silson about the same time as she was investigating the so-called red Abyssinian and subsequently bred the first cinnamon Southview Pavane. To make her investigations simpler she did not keep the two separate and when cinnamon breeding started in earnest it was one of the problems that caused setbacks to progression. (The other was the longhair gene which the sorrel Abyssinian carried, unknown to Maureen.)

In those days the only way to clear the lines of the recessive white was to mate an Oriental to a Siamese not coming down the affected lines and keep an Oriental from the mating. It was not so easy to clear a Siamese.

As far as I know Miiko was the only one to arrive in this country and Julia was the only other breeder to produce any. I expect the cinnamon British came down from cats that had already been cleared. It is highly unlikely that any would be born now and anyway, it is easy to DNA test for Siamese to make sure.


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